

Homeless in Silicon Valley - lavrentia
http://billmoyers.com/content/homeless-in-high-techs-shadow/
Have tech millionaires pushed the cost of living so high that the working poor are ending up homeless? Bill Moyers, the most subversive show on television according to the New York Times, shows the extremes of wealth and poverty in Silicon Valley.
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wes-exp
What I want to know is why can't rent be cheaper in the Bay Area for simple
apartments? There's plenty of vertical space to build more housing. But
instead everything is small one or two story homes that cost a million bucks
at minimum.

Part of Silicon Valley's original magic was that it was just farmland and
affordable to live there. Now it's a terribly expensive place to live. Imagine
how conducive to startups it would be (on top of existing success) if people
could actually afford to rent a place. Right now all $1000/mo gets you is a
BUNK BED! <https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/134016> In other places in the US
$1000/mo would get you a newly constructed apartment with all amenities and
granite counter-tops.

This could be the ultimate startup: just build housing and correct the
supply/demand balance!

~~~
rdouble
Because nobody can build such apartments due to a unique confluence of all the
space already taken, NIMBY zoning codes and the expense of earthquake proof
taller buildings.

~~~
wes-exp
In that case maybe VCs should stop investing in the next Facebook and instead
look at earthquake-proof building technology. Clearly there's a market for it.

~~~
nemothekid
I absolutely love this logic. If VCs would just invest in it, then they would
magically appear! Maybe VCs should stop investing in the next facebook and
instead look at cancer curing technology. With the high insurance premiums
there's clearly a market for it. And since VCs are the only people with money
its obvious that no one else is funding/researching cancer medicine!

I really hate this thinking, do you really believe that earthquakes is such a
trivial issue that no one is working on it? What the hell do you think the
architects/structural engineers are doing at MIT/Berkeley/every university on
the planet? They aren't trying to build Instagram for Skyscrapers, I'll tell
you that much.

~~~
rdouble
Earthquake proofing technology exists, it just makes building more expensive.
I probably shouldn't have mentioned it. It seemed too vague to just say "it's
a pain in the ass and too expensive," even though that is what new
construction in the Bay Area boils down to.

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up_and_up
Are some people being over compensated?

"the average American CEO now earns 319 times as much as the average American
worker"

[http://abcnews.go.com/Business/walmart-ceo-pay-hour-
workers-...](http://abcnews.go.com/Business/walmart-ceo-pay-hour-workers-
year/story?id=11067470#.UV8jX6s4WGg)

Japanese Business leaders are making way less then American CEOs around 16
times as much as an average worker.

[http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2010/07/08/106536/japanese...](http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2010/07/08/106536/japanese-
ceo-american-sixth/)

If the average worker makes, say, 30K. I can see someone making 10x, maybe 50x
that. But really 300x ??

Making decisions at the top is no doubt difficult and requires experience and
expertise etc. But can you really say a CEOs time is worth 300x?

Like everything else, the pay at the top affects the pay scale at the entire
management tier.

~~~
adventured
That's completely bogus.

The average CEO is running a business that won't exist in ten years, and
doesn't earn more than six figures.

You're talking about an extreme minority business group, a few hundred
individuals are used to skew that stat to the moon. It'd be like comparing
Single A baseball players to the top 100 paid players in the MLB; or NBA vs
the development league. And even that doesn't get you close to the real
exaggeration in the CEO stat.

There are over 20 million businesses in the US, none of which are Fortune 500
companies that always are used to abuse that CEO stat.

The average CEO is not earning $15 million per year (median income is $50k+,
mean is over $55k (was $60k in 2004)). Indeed, how can the average CEO earn
that much, when only a few dozen in the entire country earn that much?

~~~
enraged_camel
Yeah. It seems more useful to talk about "median CEO salary" rather than
average.

~~~
Evbn
No, the average and the count are multiplied together to determine he taxable
base. The median is irrelevant and is used as a human shield by the 1%.

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martinshen
The divide in wealth is surely something that will continue in America. I
think in less than 15 years, big cities will have at least Hong Kong's wealth
disparity. Put simply, I just can't think of the middle class jobs of the
future. Even the labor laws in Italy are becoming more lenient in face of a
down economy.

I think that companies like Exec, Lyft and TaskRabbit provide a window into
what lower class jobs are in the future.

~~~
jiggy2011
I think this is _the_ most important question in politics right now.
Politicians seem to think that our current woes can be fixed by tweaking tax
codes and interest rates and hoping that the private sector will pick up the
slack eventually.

However I don't think that this is a foregone conclusion. With such high
unemployment I would have expected services to have gotten worse due to
business being understaffed. In fact the opposite seems to have happened, I
can access services and products much more easily and conveniently than ever
before. Apart from essentials like energy and housing which have become
proprietorially more expensive.

I'm not even sure programmers are safe, salaries at SV startups may be high
now but I wonder how much of that is because of companies desperately making a
landgrab for digital space.

For developers not wanting to play the high stakes game and simply wanting a
middle class income from writing enterprise java code it's going to become
increasingly hard to compete with growing numbers of skilled developers in
countries with lower costs of living.

~~~
Domenic_S
> _it's going to become increasingly hard to compete with growing numbers of
> skilled developers in countries with lower costs of living._

This argument has been made for a very long time, and I don't think it's any
closer to being true today.

Overcoming the 1) time differential, 2) language barriers, and 3) culture
differences of working overseas takes a very special kind of person. They
absolutely do exist, and in my experience they tend to simply move to the US
where they can command hefty salaries.

Just my opinion, but I think skilled developers in countries with lower costs
of living might be propping up the salaries of stateside devs. The higher you
pay stateside devs, the more money you're "saving" in comparison by hiring a
team somewhere else.

~~~
jiggy2011
Yes and no, I can see this gap tightening as foreign teams learn better
english to gain competitive advantage. Also translation software is improving
and I see more contract jobs where the client is from china or some other
country.

Time differential can be easily overcome if developers simply move their sleep
schedule around. I've developed software for people in different timezones and
it's not a problem if the software is clearly specified. Since I can just send
an progress report email and wait for them to pick it up.

I agree that the best developers will probably seek to emigrate but at some
point immigration will be tightened up and more talented devs will stay in
their home country.

And out sourcing is just one piece of the pie. With more people being
encouraged to learn to code (which I think is great) programming jobs will
face more competition.

~~~
Domenic_S
That's really handwavy. When we get Star Trek level translation, or perfect
specs, or devs decide to sleep all day and work all night (because who needs a
family?).

Every very-large business I know of has offices and teams in other countries,
and it works best when they're "just" another office. Branch in SF, branch in
NYC, branch in London, branch in Chennai, branch in...

When you turn to other countries to _grow_ your business, you can win; when
you turn to other countries to _replace the workers you built your company
with_ you usually lose. IMO, YMMV, etc.

~~~
jiggy2011
Well translation software is getting better, and plenty of people in the first
world with families work weird shifts.

The point is that this stuff (global working) is going to get easier , not
harder in the future as is eliminating the needs for some jobs entirely.

What we need is a new industry that requires a lot of workers and can pay a
middle class salary. Otherwise we risk having a global proletariat fighting
over an increasingly shrinking slice of pie.

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justinhj
If I was homeless through choice or bad luck I would also pick San Francisco
due to the climate, the existing homeless community and the state of
California being liberal and more generous with support programmes. In other
words despite its success SF will only gain homeless.

~~~
dgbsco
California tends to criminalize homelessness more than other states, due to
this exact mindset.

I'd head for the mountains.

~~~
sliverstorm
And yet look at the homeless population of Santa Cruz. Something like 1 in
every 20 residents are homeless, last I checked.

~~~
rdouble
I found that number hard to believe, but then looked it up. The estimate is
2700 homeless in Santa Cruz out of a population of 60,000. In comparison, SF
has estimated about 7000 homeless in a city of 800,000.

~~~
sliverstorm
Oh, I guess it's down, so my ratio is a bit off. Used to be above 3000. The
ratio was 1 out of 17 in 2005, looks like now it is 1 out of 22.

~~~
jmspring
While it may be down, by 1 out of N, problems related to drug use, dealing,
and the petty theft that comes with it has exacerbated issues around
homelessness here in Santa Cruz. It is a complicated issue, but those seeking
help are often overshadowed by the guys stripping bike parts to sell for scrap
to get their next fix or very obvious drug dealing going on in and around the
homeless services center.

A number of people in Santa Cruz are in a bit of an uproar due to an uptick in
crimes; as well as needles littering parks, beaches, and other public spaces.

In the 20+ years I've been here, it certainly at a low point over that span of
years.

~~~
sliverstorm
Yes, as far as impact I'm sure the change in ratio hasn't affected much. I was
just attempting to be completely accurate.

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protomyth
Tax codes and wealth differences didn't cause this problem.

Let's start with a little history. We once had mental institutions, but those
became evil. The solution was really to take those people in institutions and
move them to residential programs. Well, it seems many residents don't what
mentally ill people in their neighborhood. So, along came in-home and out
patient programs. None of which actually worked as well as a well run
institution.

Both political parties did their own damage to get us here.

------
justin_vanw
A large majority of people that are persistently 'homeless' in the US, by
which I mean completely destitute and sleeping outside, have serious mental
disease AND/OR are alcoholics, AND/OR are addicts. In fact, most became
homeless due to one of these three reasons, rather than turning to alcohol or
drugs to cope with their situation.

No amount of social justice can cure someone's schizophrenia. Some treatment
is available to homeless people, but again the vast majority are not willing
to participate (the drugs have very unpleasant effects, so this is unfortunate
but you can empathize with someone not wanting to experience those side
effects).

If someone becomes an alcoholic, loses a job because of it, becomes alienated
from their family and social support network, and ends up deciding, under the
influence of that addiction, that they prefer to drink at the expense of
everything else, even housing, what can social justice do to help them?

There are ways to improve the situation. Decriminalization of drugs, more
research into how to treat people with mental health issues and addictions,
more resources smartly applied to treatment.

TLDR; People don't become homeless because of poverty or a regressive tax
code, they become and stay destitute because of mental illness and addiction.
Finding ways to intervene is important, but the existence of homeless people
does not imply social _injustice_. There may be social injustice in the US,
but this is not a symptom of it or proof of it.

References:

<http://www.psychosocial.com/policy/dualdx1.html>

<http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/162/3/314.short>

[http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1600-0447.2001....](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1600-0447.2001.00217.x/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false)

<http://barrettfoundation.org/causes-of-homelessness/>

Quoting from that last link:

> In addition, approximately half of people experiencing homelessness suffer
> from mental health issues. At a given point in time, 45 percent of homeless
> report indicators of mental health problems during the past year, and 57
> percent report having had a mental health problem during their lifetime.
> About 25 percent of the homelessness population has serious mental illness,
> including such diagnoses as chronic depression, bipolar disorder,
> schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorders, and severe personality disorders.

> Substance use is also prevalent among homeless populations. In a 1996
> survey, 46 percent of the homeless respondents had an alcohol use problem
> during the past year, and 62 percent had an alcohol use problem at some
> point in their lifetime. Thirty-eight percent had a problem with drug use
> during the past year, and 58 percent had a drug use problem during their
> lifetime.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
Then why does America have so much more homelessness than other developed
countries? I'd bet it's because there's no universal health-care system to
treat mental illness or addiction.

~~~
fusiongyro
Just a guess, but might part of it be because in other countries it's easier
to die from it? Particularly the Nordic countries you're probably referring
to, you can't sleep outside for as long as you can in California.

While we do have sub-par healthcare for it, I personally think part of it is
that people still don't "get" that mental illness is an illness. Even my wife,
who recently started treatment for depression, finds herself "explaining" to
her family "why" she was depressed, instead of really understanding that what
makes it an illness is that it lacks an explanation. You aren't expected to
have a reason for your flu. But for some reason in this country you are
expected to have a reason for your depression (or insomnia, or psychosis, or
whatever).

~~~
sebcat
> Just a guess, but might part of it be because in other countries it's easier
> to die from it?

Exposure is a relatively small percentage of the CoD among homeless people in
Scandinavia. Homeless people can get food and shelter here. Alcohol-abuse
related illnesses are by far the major killer.

~~~
steveklabnik
One of my friends in Madison, WI said that there was some sort of 'days since
a homeless person has frozen to death in Madison' site, though a preliminary
search can't find it.

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Aloha
Having had to sleep in my car when I lived in the Bay Area in the 2005/6
timeframe - this is spot on. Even though I was making 18.50 an hour (when
minimum wage was either 6.75 or 7.25 an hour) I was unable to find an
apartment that I could afford to rent, or could meet the deposit requirements
(First/Last/Damage). I eventually found a room to rent in Sunnyvale/Mountain
View for something I could afford, in the mean time, I was couch surfing, and
sleeping in my car when needed.

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ck2
Part of the problem is defunding of programs to help them.

It's not like homeless/mental-illness has a lobby before congress or even a
local level and is not exactly a strong voting block, so it's an easy target
to axe.

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sp4ke
Make a free accelerated web development course for these folks and in a matter
of months they'll be no more a concern and you'd have done something right

~~~
jff
Oh for god's sake HN, learning to code is not the ultimate and perfect
solution to every problem. It's not just a matter of providing training and
jobs, you also have to treat the substance addictions and mental illness that
run rampant in the homeless population.

~~~
ptaipale
I think your sarcasmometer needs calibration; it's clearly not blinking lights
when it should.

(I really didn't think of this, but when googling up, there actually seems to
be an Android application called Sarcasm-O-Meter...)

~~~
sliverstorm
Of course the part where you could almost believe it wasn't sarcastic...

~~~
jff
That's exactly it. When we had that article recently about how so many
Americans are on unemployment, we had people saying, "Why don't they just
learn to code?"

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delmarc
This issue was one that I was very surprised with when I first came here
myself... I lived all my life pretty much in NYC (Bronx and Manhattan) and at
one point it was bad as well but around the time of Giuliani terms', the total
visibility of the problem had dropped... but like said from SJ to SF, it is
something to get used to...

~~~
danboarder
I hear you but I would suggest that we should not "get used to" homelessness
around us. It should bother us enough to prompt us as individuals and a
community to come up with solutions that address the problem.

For area companies, the problem can also be seen as an opportunity: CSR
(corporate social responsibility) programs can be leveraged to make an
difference by supporting the best organizations (shelters, recovery programs,
and worker training programs) which I believe will more than pay for itself by
gained goodwill through social innovation and impact.

A good starting point for thinking about approaches to social innovation
programs on a higher level can be found in this Stanford Social Innovation
Review article:

Rediscovering Social Innovation
[http://www.ssireview.org/articles/entry/rediscovering_social...](http://www.ssireview.org/articles/entry/rediscovering_social_innovation)

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TechNewb
Well made video that articulates an argument well, and has a positive call to
action at the end. Very sensitive topic as well, wonder what potential
solutions would or could be.

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rit
this is coming up 404 now : even when you click the link to the article on the
front page of the listed domain.

Anyone have a cache of the content?

