
Ask HN: I'd like to start taking amphetamines. What do you recommend? - anonaskhn
I've just read about Paul Erdos and it made me think about something I've been considering for a while.<p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erdős<p>"After 1971 he also took amphetamines, despite the concern of his friends, one of whom (Ron Graham) bet him $500 that he could not stop taking the drug for a month. Erdős won the bet, but complained during his abstinence that mathematics had been set back by a month: "Before, when I looked at a piece of blank paper my mind was filled with ideas. Now all I see is a blank piece of paper." After he won the bet, he promptly resumed his amphetamine habit."<p>What do you recommend? I drink coffee, I don't do anything else. What are others' experiences, both legal and illegal? I'd like to be able to get long stretches of difficult work done with greater concentration and faster thinking. Legality and supply in different countries is a factor. Please forgive me anonymously registering a handle to ask this question, and please feel free to yourself if your usage patterns are something you feel is private. Thanks.
======
dkersten
Perhaps his lack of concentration when he stopped for a month wasn't because
the drug helped him concentrate, but rather that his dependence on it made him
not be able to concentrate without it anymore - that is, when hes on the drug,
his concentration is at the same level as those not on the drug.

Now, I don't know if this was the case or not, but its worth thinking about
before starting this.

Personally, in the past I've used large quantities of energy drinks to get me
through long project or study sessions. While it worked in keeping me awake,
and more alert than I would have been without, I did notice my performance
drop. That is, if I was well rested and worked for some number of hours, I'd
get MORE work done that if I worked twice as many hours, but substituted rest
for energy drink.

Sometimes the trade-off is worth it (eg because the deadline is earlier than
it would take to get it done with rest; quality is less important than time
etc etc), but other times its not. I bet amphetamines are similar, though I've
personally never tried.

In the past, I have tried a drug for concentration purposes; not quite sure
what it was exactly, some sort of legal cannabis alternative which contained
small amounts of valium and other similar ingredients. Large amounts would put
you to sleep, but small amounts really did help concentration a lot and a lot
of great ideas came from this (including a project which myself and a friend
came up with, designed and built a prototype and it is now being used by a
certain university for research purposes, after rebuilding our prototype with
proper manufactured parts). So, it certainly is possible to use drugs to
enhance performance, but I'm wondering at what cost. I'm not convinced that
prolonged use is safe and would be pretty skeptical.

You'll have to decide for yourself if the risks and trade-offs are worth it
for you.

------
fogus
My advice, Don't. Taking them will not turn you into Paul Erdős.

Someone had to say it.

~~~
jacquesm
Aye, but you are comparing apples with oranges here.

To compare the poster with Paul Erdős is a fallacy, you should be comparing
Paul Erdős without amphetamines vs Paul Erdős with.

It's a relative thing, not an absolute thing. And since the poster is
anonymous you can't really make any qualitative statements about his mental
capabilities (other than the ones you inferred from his posting).

~~~
volodia
I think he was trying to say that the magnitude of the mental boost from using
amphetamines will not compensate for the health risks, and that if your mental
skills are not already extremely sharp without amphetamines (like those of
Erdos), then the drugs might not give you the effect you expect.

------
someonepassing
Don't.

As someone who used them for a long time I can tell you:

They are not physically addictive - I could also have easily stopped for a
month. When I did stop the problems were psychological like the fact that most
of my "friendships" were shallow and drug based

It destroys your judgment. I once wrote a programming language (a scripting
language for an app I was working on). It didn't support minus numbers -
something I hadn't spotted until someone complained.

It turns you into an arsehole - speed users are arseholes, unreliable ,
untrustworthy and self centered.

On the plus side if you accept that you are going to do it and manage yourself
(make sure you have nutrition , plan for coming down, learn to deal with the
myriad of problems - getting stuck in a "groove" - ie fixated on one small
(and often pointless) task, memory issues etc.) you can be extremely
functional on it - I took it for years.

The being an arsehole thing is the main reason I stopped - I haven't touched
it for more than a decade now. I have had some good results with Adrafinil
which gives great focus, has less of the bad stuff and if you work with your
body clock even lets you sleep pretty normally. If I need to sprint on
something I take it for a few days and get loads done.

------
jacquesm
Beware of the downsides...

I knew a guy (singer) that would use 'speed' like others smoke or chew gum, he
burned out before he was 50.

Now, this guy was a pretty heavy user and I guess that is what it is all about
but any kind of substance use can slide into abuse.

Don't get burned. Please.

I'm not going to lecture you or question your motives, but you have to be
aware that everything has a price.

------
ErrantX
> I'd like to be able to get long stretches of difficult work done with
> greater concentration and faster thinking

The question I would ask is why?

A lot of my friends complain about wanting to work longer hours etc. but I
dont always understand the desire. If your working to a tight deadline then
fair enough - but if your constantly working to a tight deadline then perhaps
the whole job needs assessing!

I used to work quite long hours with little sleep (as I slept badly for many
years) and constantly felt drained (even when using stimulants), lethargic and
somewhat confused. Now I strictly limit how much work I do and force myself to
have down time and i find the work I do do is finished faster and is better -
and I am healthier for it.

~~~
anonaskhn
Right now, I'm curious to what the effects will be like. I think my work is
important and enjoy doing it. I'd like to do more of it, sharper, faster. I've
seen the effects of good diet and exercise: Very big. I've seen the effects of
caffeine: Also very big! But scary withdrawl too.

I'd like to slowly wade into other performance increasing things to see how it
works for me, how it changes my work and the rest of my life. Hopefully I can
do this fully aware of risks and downsides, which is why I ask here. Lots of
brilliant people here who have work and lives similar to mine.

~~~
ErrantX
How long do you work for at the moment and what are you aiming for? Some
details about your current and hoped for day structure?

I've done a lot of personal work on improving these things naturally (after
taking a huge dive off of a caffeine high and flunking the end of year exams
for my second year of uni).

To give you a rough idea of my day now I usually work 10-13 hours of the day,
sleep for 6-8 and socialise for 4-6 (all variable - usually I work 13hrs 3
days and 11hrs 2 days extending my social time for the shorter days)

All of this is on limited caffeine (4 coffees and 4 teas MAX) per day and
mostly reliant on fruit juice as the stimulant :) (and discipline)

~~~
anonaskhn
20-70 per week, depending on how you define work. These days, my day is almost
completely unstructured by nature: I have to structure it myself with
scheduling and journals.

Would you care to elaborate on how you put in 10-13 per day? That would be
wonderful.

~~~
ErrantX
I get up around 7: exercise, shower and eat (in that order). Wake myself with
OJ not caffeine (much more effective I find).

Work from 9am to 5pm in my day job - lunching at 2pm. Work from 6pm at home on
personal projects / my personal company / consultancy. Till sometime between
8-11pm. Usually pause for 1/2 an hr for dinner at 9:30 if I am not already
stopped working by then.

Religously in bed by 12pm if at home. If socialising (in, say, a pub)
religiously home _and_ in bed by 1pm (usually the next day is one I work
10hrs). Light Alcohol consumption only.

Weekends I work 8 hours (10am to 6pm) and keep incredibly strict to that
timetable. Sundays I will sometimes work the mornings only.

last week I worked a total of 2 12hr days, 1 13hr day, 2 10hr days and 12 hrs
at the weekend (69hrs). That is typical.

One thing I found was that it was about discipline and then developing some
habits to help you concentrate.

I meditate for 10-20mins before I go to bed. I also make sure I read for
around an hr before bed to wind down.

Cardio exercise first thing in the morning seems to keep me stimulated and
awake for most of the day (I use wii sports and do some boxing). I also
replace caffeine with OJ because that has a better effect for me.

But it is discipline that really does it: up at 7am every day with a simple
but set routine for the first hour ensures you wake up really well. And being
strict about bed time (and winding down before bed) ensures your fresh.

Good meals are another benefit. A good breakfast keeps me going till 2 (which
is a good portion of the day gone!). A late lunch at 2 gives me energy for
working at home and dinner at 9pm (the smallest meal) is just to boost energy
levels slightly and to give me a simple break to the work.

I refuse point blank now to work longer hours at work: before I was working
till 9pm and getting to bed straight from my PC at about 1am. But the thing is
it's not a problem anymore - I am getting 50% more work done during the day
right now than I did before so overtime isnt required :D

Be prepared to work hard though - it took me about 6 months to train myself
into the basics and a further 18 to cement it. However this did involve
finishing university and starting work (at the 6 month mark) meaning I had to
reorder the routine setting me back quite a bit (I slumped for about 3 months
as I mentioned before getting back on track)

EDIT: I should add about the 10hrs thing. I made this choice deliberately to
limit myself to 13 hrs max but try my best to stop and do other stuff before I
reached then. If I finish at 9pm for example there is loads of time to go hang
out with a friend or just flake in front of the TV. I find this one of the
biggest contributors to my heightened activity and concentration. Ive also
taken to reading non-fiction like crazy in this time: stuff lik popular
physics, sociology, body language, politics are my current fad :)

Also this clearly wont work if you have a partner - I am coming up with a
routine to fit that situation though (as a relationship is on the horizon :)).

~~~
swolchok
Do you use an alarm clock to wake up? If so, are you sure you're not sleep-
deprived?

What do you eat for breakfast? I'm usually hungry within 2-3 hours after
eating cereal, oatmeal, or a banana.

Where do domestic tasks fit in? Weekends only? I can't cook, eat, and do
dishes in half an hour, and if you're cooking fresh vegetables, waiting a week
between grocery trips seems to be suboptimal.

~~~
ErrantX
> Do you use an alarm clock to wake up? If so, are you sure you're not sleep-
> deprived?

Originally for a few months to train me into it. Now I wake up automatically
at a few minutes to 7 :)

I never slept much before anyway - 7 hours is the best I have slept for years.
I cant physically sleep for more than 8-9 hours (I will always wake up - tried
it :))

Weekends I wake up at 8-9am (I make that a bit flexible; basically just rely
on my body to wake me up when it feels like it) and the lie in is a great
"weekend feeling" boost (part of feeling a lot more positive).

> What do you eat for breakfast? I'm usually hungry within 2-3 hours after
> eating cereal, oatmeal, or a banana.

Cereal. Then either a bacon sandwich, or a boiled egg or a bagel with cream
cheese and smoked salmon. I eat a BIG breakfast and lunch but a small tea.

> Where do domestic tasks fit in? Weekends only? I can't cook, eat, and do
> dishes in half an hour, and if you're cooking fresh vegetables, waiting a
> week between grocery trips seems to be suboptimal.

I do have a slight confession here: in that I live at home (an annoyingly
necessary arrangement for the time being) so my family shares the cooking. I
cook maybe twice a week and those are my 10hr days. Chores I do in the morning
before work - im less than 10 minutes walk away so I basically have 2hrs for
"doing stuff" in the mornings. Other domestic chores give me my breaks

I pick up fresh veg on my way home every few nights (and because I only live
10 mins away I have an hr to get home, do chores and chill till I start to
work again).

Actually the last few weeks i have been slipping. Prior to last week I spent a
month on standard 8 hour days and (unusually for me) a lot of time in bed due
to a tooth and ear infection. It's been really useful to find I can get back
into my rythm really quickly again :D The onyl downside is I felt awful those
few weeks of illness - more so than I should have. I think I was actually
"crashing" because of being out of the routine (a doctor friend has confirmed
this is something he has seen before) so some of the caveats as with the drugs
apply! I suspect my recovery was extended substantially because of feeling
like I did. Which is something interesting I need to explore.

------
peoplerock
There have been a lot of thoughtful threads here that offer pros, cons, and
the variety of personal experiences. In particular: note that the impact on
someone with ADHD (maybe Paul E was one such?) are likely to be different that
for a non-ADHD person.

searchyc.com seems to be down right now but a google on ritalin at HN will
give you a lot of starting points:

[http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=ritalin&as_e...](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=ritalin&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=news.ycombinator.com)

------
peterhi
If you feel that the only way you can achieve what you want is to take
amphetamines then I would hope that what you are working on is very important
(for you at least). The side effect from overuse are enough to take years off
your life.

Also I suspect that no doctor would willingly supply you with amphetamines
just so you can work harder. Doctors write prescriptions for medical
conditions and not life style.

Ask yourself how long this difficult work can be expected to last, if it is
essentially your job then you'll probably have to take amphetamines for as
long as you have the job.

Paul Erdős only gave up for a month so I suppose we can call him an addict.
And you are no Paul Erdős.

~~~
anonaskhn
"If you feel that the only way you can achieve what you want is to take
amphetamines then I would hope that what you are working on is very important
(for you at least). The side effect from overuse are enough to take years off
your life."

It is very important to me, but I'd rather not lose years of my life is
possible. Hence, asking for input here.

"And you are no Paul Erdős."

Not many accomplish on that level, but anyone who wishes can aspire to. I do.

But lifestyle judgments aside, I would be fascinated by some personal
anecdotes or places to start learning more before jumping in.

------
retroryan
I would discourage the use of amphetamines without a real mental need, they do
have some very serious side effects. However I have found due to a combination
of mental disorders - mostly depression related - I am unable to function
without amphetamines during certain times of the month.

As an alternative to stronger amphetamines I have found provigil -
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil> \- to be a wonder drug. It doesn't
stay in the body as long, yet gives you enough umph to get going on those real
tough days.

------
jwecker
A good doctor will help you optimize your focus and creativity without you
needing to self-medicate or do anything illegal. I'd spend some time setting
up an appointment- he/she may find that you suffer from ADD/ADHD and prescribe
something- maybe not. If you decide to do something (IMO stupid) illegal,
you'll want to know that doctor's phone # and have at least one appointment
behind you so that you can call if you screw yourself up. (Doctors are
confidential - for your life's sake, talk to a doctor regardless).

------
Grinnmarr
I used Dr. prescribed Amphetamines (Dextroamphetamine) for six years until 9
months ago when I gave them up in order to quit smoking. During that time I
was the happiest and most productive I have ever been in my life. If you can
get a Doctor to prescribe them go for it, but to take them (even
pharmaceutical grade) without a doctor's ongoing advice is foolhardy at best
and life ending at worst.

------
Perceval
Check out this New Yorker article on "neuro-enhancing" drugs:
[http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/04/27/090427fa_fact_...](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/04/27/090427fa_fact_talbot)

It has some info on Adderal (an amphetamine) and other drugs used to increase
mental performance.

------
pstuart
Check out Ritalin via your doctor.

------
Hexstream
You mean meth?

Then I recommend watching:

[http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search...](http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=%22faces+of+meth%22&search_sort=video_view_count)

------
electronslave
To reiterate other sentiments on this site: don't. Just. Don't. And if you're
going to do it, get a prescription for Adderall. A physician is a valuable
resource, even if you have to go out of pocket. Your average street dealer is
guaranteed to sell you cut goods, even if he didn't do it himself. Plus that
street dealer won't cut you off if things go pear-shaped.

Read Erowid. You'll see that it just changes your brain's chemical balance
slightly; it doesn't change you any more than you change you. In the case of
speed, it'll push you toward being a clenched-up asshole who gets OCD about
stuff. A lot of young academics / independent programmers are already that way
without speed. Carefully weigh your choices here.

There exist other options, as well, all of which I recommend. Physical
activity changes how your noodle works. Group therapy (or, not that I'm into
it, religion) might change your brain's chemistry. Probably the most-mentioned
factor, diet, has a huge impact on how your brain operates. If you aren't
considering these things before putting drugs into you, then you're probably
not making a rational decision.

The downsides of pumping yourself full of speed are: you will jettison your
girlfriend/boyfriend if you have one, your heart muscle will work overtime,
you will have less energy (but be awake for longer) and you'll gain a bit of
weight once you get off the stuff.

On a related note: jeez, kids these days...

