

Cinder (YC W15) – Smart Countertop Grill - InternetofJim
http://gizmodo.com/this-smart-countertop-grill-has-all-the-chef-skills-you-1689017439

======
InternetofJim
Co-founder/CTO here with a little backstory. Cinder (YC W’15) is like a
countertop grill that controls temperature precisely to 2F across the entire
cooking surface. I’m hoping this is exciting to HN because it’s not just a
connected cooker— it means you can hack your food. With this accuracy, you can
target specific kinds of chemical reactions, fine tune your preferences and
when you come up with something amazing, send the cooking recipe and your
friends can replicate it anywhere. I put a quick summary of some of these
things at [http://blog.cindercooks.com/cinder/2015/3/4/hot-
tips](http://blog.cindercooks.com/cinder/2015/3/4/hot-tips).

Feel free to ask me any questions here about Cinder or the magic of cooking
more generally.

~~~
placeybordeaux
Do you feel like you are competing with sous vide products like anova?

If so how do you justify the price difference?

I love the idea, but I just got an anova for ~200 and felt like that was just
at the edge of a reasonable price for me. Not having to bring water up to
temperature/have a giant pot sitting around would be nice, but just not sure
if it is worth the extra 300.

EDIT: a tiny amount of reading later: I see that another advantage is that you
can do both the low tempature 'sous vide' style work and then sear with the
same machine. That is a nice value add.

I personally got an anova largely because of chefsteps. I would highly
recommend sending them one if they will take it.

~~~
lifekaizen
We are big fans of chefsteps. Imagine having sous vide precision up to 550
degrees F. Then you can set onions to brown and walk away. It's game changing.
We built Cinder to be your go to daily cooker, both Jim and myself experienced
decreasing use of sous vide over time.

~~~
placeybordeaux
Yeah it really does sound pretty great, not sure if I will be an early
adopter, but I will certainly keep an eye on it.

Good luck!

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dagw
If anybody from the company is reading this, why an app? This seems like a new
trend in cooking equipment and I fucking hate it. I don't want to have to flip
between a half dozen apps just to make dinner. How hard is it really to put a
small display and a handful of buttons on the appliance in question and make
it usable without having to use my phone? Maybe I'm just strange but as much
as I love the idea and really want one, the lack of a UI on the device itself
is currently holding me back from ordering one. Call it the "Old Luddite retro
model" and charge me $50 bucks extra if you have to, but give me an interface
right on the device and I'll give you my credit card details.

~~~
pjc50
But how can you do pervasive user metrics and in-app purchases with a simple
button? /sarcasm

~~~
dagw
I guess that's why the version with buttons has to costs more. To compensate
for the loss of IAP and ad revenue.

~~~
InternetofJim
There's only one version, and it has both an app and a an onboard UI based on
a knob-button with an embedded dot matrix display. We're very conscious of the
tradeoff between onboard and app controls.

The knob lets you have full manual control of temperature, but is not a good
way to share recipes or learn how to cook something you don't do every day. So
you want to make a quick panini or egg, the knob is great. On the other hand,
we don't want to be like your microwave, with tons of features hidden behind
scrolling text prompts and a keypad.

On the other hand, an app interface lets you have a different UI for each food
type, so you can ask for a medium rare steak or light brown caramelized
onions.

Once you've used the app to set things up, you'll be hands-on in the kitchen,
so the next few steps can be controlled from the knob or the app.

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whysonot
Basically the same concept as the sous-vide (precision cooking) without the
water bath, right? I like it a lot in theory because I cook several meals a
week with sous vide and bet that Cinder will produce a slightly different cook
with for the same time/temperature.

$500 is a tough sell though if you can get roughly the same thing with a sous
vide for <$200.

~~~
InternetofJim
Precision cooking is the same, but this goes way beyond sous vide, because we
can go above boiling, which is where all the fun reactions happen.

Caramelization, browning, and similar reactions are what produce the really
great, complex, flavors in the best food. It's not just about searing steak --
we can take apples and convert them into apple pie filling with no added
sugar. We can make butternut squash sweet and eggplant creamy. We can
perfectly brown cheese without burning it, so you can have a grilled cheese
where the cheese inside is browned, like the stuff that sticks to the grill.

We have a test chef who is coming up with new ways to use this all the time,
and we're going to share them through the app so everyone can play.

~~~
crygin
This definitely seems complementary to rather than a replacement for sous vide
cooking (especially in terms of e.g. gelatinizing collagen in rare meat, since
you'd get oxidative off-flavors over the duration necessary using your
device).

I'd be very interested in hearing more comparisons between your device's
caramelization abilities and e.g. pressure-cooker caramelization with or
without added alkaline agents. My experiments doing temp-controlled
caramelization in ambient air (rather than the hydrating environment of a
pressure cooker) have had mixed results.

Will you have any physical demos in the bay area?

~~~
InternetofJim
We really haven't noticed any significant oxidation over cook times of up to 4
hours; We have not yet tested something like a 72 hour recipe.

We do plan to have public demos from time to time (we've already done a few at
various meetups and other events -- we're based here in SoMa). If you'd like,
email info >>at<< cindercooks.com, and we can add you to our mailing list so
you could be notified of these events.

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abakker
Question on food safety: What is the longest available cook time? I ask
because in an aerobic environment an extended cook time is necessary at 135
degrees to achieve pasteurization. Even in sous vide, it is necessary to
extend cook times to achieve sufficient pasteurization. With oxygen present I
expect you could grow some very interesting cultures. Specifically in foods
like ground beef, where there is no inhibiting the movement of bacteria from
surface to center of the cut.

~~~
lifekaizen
We've focused on your daily gourmet of 30 minutes or less, and we make sure to
cook to safe temperature. Above 131F is considered outside of the bacterial
growth zone (basically between fridge to 131F, bacteria multiplies like
crazy); if you hold it, it will eventually pasteurize. A more insurmountable
problem comes from anaerobic bacteria that can exist in a true vacuum, and the
spores will survive high temperatures; we avoided that problem by not
requiring a vacuum.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Above 131F is considered outside of the bacterial growth zone (basically
> between fridge to 131F, bacteria multiplies like crazy); if you hold it, it
> will eventually pasteurize.

Most food safety sources I've seen cite 40-140 degrees Fahrenheit (or 5-60
degrees Celsius) as the "Danger Zone" in which foods should not be held.

~~~
crygin
It's a combination of temp & time -- 131F for four hours will pasteurize (and,
conveniently, is below the coagulation temperature for both the white & yolk
of eggs, so you can home-pasteurize eggs for mayo/etc with a water bath).
Contrariwise, 140F wouldn't be safe if it only reached it for a few seconds.

~~~
abakker
yeah, the difference being the time...hence my original question. At 135
degrees you need at least 35 minutes of hold time once you have reached the
target temperature.

[http://sousvide.wikia.com/wiki/Importance_of_temperature_con...](http://sousvide.wikia.com/wiki/Importance_of_temperature_control_on_pasteurizing_times)

~~~
lifekaizen
correct. that's why it's beautiful to control the entire process with software
-- we know your time/temp curve. And why the USDA still gives one temperature
which assumes an instantaneous point of contact, but higher than you need if
you can simply hold the temp. (As a heuristic, staying lower gives you better
quality food.)

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djloche
This looks great, and I'm willing to pay the $500, but there's no release
date. If I'm am being charged immediately, you have to have a release date -
or otherwise communicate how the pre-order period works.

~~~
lifekaizen
You are correct, and to thank you for point this out I'd like to give you a
Cappuccino Card (email me or hello@cindercooks.com with your Transaction ID
and we'll give you $5 off). If you don't scroll the bottom of the page, you
don't see "Shipping early 2016." So I have now updated the pre-order page with
the expected shipping date.

We plan to ship in early 2016. We're doing everything we can to stay on
schedule -- we have a pretty experienced team who's shipped products before,
and are working with PCH, a company who specializes in manufacturing and
logistics (they do all of Apples accessories and Beats, for example).

If you change your mind during the pre-order period, we will give you a refund
if desired.

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avitous
Nifty idea, but how durable will this thing be? At $500, it'd need to be able
to cook several hundred meals before needing any expensive repair/replacement,
else its market will likely be limited to those affluent enough to not care
about the cost.

~~~
InternetofJim
It's pretty, but there's nothing delicate about this cooker, and we plan to do
a fairly extensive test program. We intend for this to be a real workhorse for
cooks, usable several times per day for years.

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aurora72
The parts which contact the food are made of aluminum. Even if they are
covered with Teflon or made non-stick, it's still not good.

~~~
zrail
I cook with anodized aluminum pans all the time[1]. What's the problem?

[1]: Specifically, [http://smile.amazon.com/Emeril-All-
Clad-E83602-Anodized-8-In...](http://smile.amazon.com/Emeril-All-
Clad-E83602-Anodized-8-Inch/dp/B00KG7IEEQ) (not an affiliate link)

~~~
aurora72
In time they get scratched by forks, while putting in the washing mashine, by
anything and when they are scratched the inner aluminum comes into the open
and that's no good. Contacting with food while cooking might transfer the
scratched aluminum into the food. Aluminum is outright dangerous for any
living body.

~~~
zrail
Sure, but this is why I dont use metal in those pans, why they always get hand
washed, etc. Care for and respect your tools and they last practically
forever.

~~~
aurora72
Well it's not me, the other households handle those parts carelessly and the
aluminum is easly dented, scratched. But the point is, such parts should be
made of anything else, such as copper, suitable type of iron, anything but
aluminum. Also, considered in terms of value a $20 toast machine does have
aluminum pressing plates, too.

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ars
It mentions a connected app - will this need an internet connection, or can
the app communicate locally, directly with the grill?

(If you are still deciding how to do it, then if it helps, I can tell you I
absolutely never buy any device that requires an internet connection to
perform functions that should be local.)

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ch
The article doesn't give a good indication of scale. Is this simmilar in size
to a Forman grille? Also where do the juices and fats run off? Do they just
collect on the cook surface?

~~~
johnxy888
Our device will have 10"x10" cook plates. perhaps our video will give a better
sense for scale? [https://vimeo.com/120412550](https://vimeo.com/120412550)

And as far as grease management goes, we will have drainage and trays that
collect the run-off (similar to products on the market now). Happy to hear any
suggestions or insights

~~~
InternetofJim
Also worth mentioning is that there isn't a lot of juice running out of the
food, because it generally stays inside. When you see a lot of liquid running
out of meat, that's the taste running down the drain. Since I've started
cooking on this, I've found that I do a lot less saucing, because the food
itself is so much juicier and tastier.

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abuteau
I tasted a toast from a smart toaster a few weeks ago and it was the best
toast I have ever tasted. Looking forward to taste more products from smart
cooking tools.

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brianbreslin
So I am gonna say to the average person this looks like a george foreman grill
with an app connected. Are we going to see a smart toaster? How about an app
for the vitamix blender?

~~~
InternetofJim
It cooks with heated plates, but it's an entirely different cooking process
than something like Foreman-- more versatile, and with dramatically better
results and enables new cooking techniques which can't be done reliably on any
other device.

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Anisa_Mirza
can't wait to own one of these! Solid product + founder combo.

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gcb0
never knew yc onboard consumer products

~~~
lifekaizen
YC has backed many, the better known include Pebble and Coin.

