
Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Windows 10 Insider build - mikro2nd
https://www.ghacks.net/2018/09/12/microsoft-intercepting-firefox-chrome-installation-on-windows-10/
======
shaqbert
The battle for control of the user. The pressure to create/preserve market
share seems to be rising.

When e.g. you look how aggressively Google is trying to switch me to Chrome
from my Firefox on all of their properties, a new low was set. But from my
insider buddies at Google, that strategy is working well.

This here from MSFT dials it up another notch. With the anti-trust cases in
the EU, they probably will be able to geo target this feature so that from the
EU all will be fine and dandy, but the rest of the world will get scared into
switching to Edge.

~~~
JohnTHaller
I wish Mozilla would include a default content blocker to block Google's
attempts to steal Firefox users. But then I also wish Windows blocked
automated Google Chrome installs that steal default browser included as
bundleware with free antivirus apps, Java, etc. I'm tired of walking a parent
through uninstalling Google Chrome (that they have no idea how it was
installed) and getting Firefox set as their default browser again.

~~~
wongarsu
Hasn't Windows 10 essentially solved that problem by not letting any
application change the default browser setting, instead only letting them open
the correct settings panel? Or is there now a way around that?

~~~
kijin
It helps to some extent. But then again, Windows itself keeps changing my
default media player and image viewer back to the Microsoft defaults, so I
don't trust those settings to be as immutable as I would like them to be.

~~~
fbelzile
And the default PDF viewer... Apparently some Windows updates change the user-
defined PDF viewer to Edge.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
It's because "Feature Updates" are actually in-place OS upgrades. They're
essentially reinstalling Windows and migrating applications and settings, but
also choosing to not migrate some of them.

~~~
maxxxxx
Is that true? Does that mean that applications with a more complex setup will
break with every feature update?

------
NeedMoreTea
In threads about github etc, many were claiming Microsoft are a completely
different, and better company, with a fine open approach to business these
days.

Seems nothing much has changed in their approach in 30 years.

~~~
pjmlp
They are as open as Intel, AMD, ARM, Google, Apple and IBM, the beloved ones
from FOSS.

~~~
chriswarbo
> the beloved ones from FOSS.

I don't recall these being "beloved". This sounds like a troll to me.

Sure Intel do FOSS graphics driver development, but I doubt they've ever been
beloved due to their constant scandals (ME and Meltdown recently, and further
back there's ClassMate, Itanium/Itanic, etc.)

AMD promised open drivers. We're still waiting.

ARM systems are usually locked down and full of blobs (e.g. for graphics,
etc.). Plus ARM don't make chips, they just sell licenses to their designs to
third parties, which is completely anti-FOSS.

Google do support a lot of FOSS development, but their online monopolies and
spying infrastructure have always kept people suspicious.

Apple has a habit of turning liberally licensed FOSS into proprietary software
(e.g. OSX is based on Mach and BSD, Safari is based on KHTML, etc.). Their
mobile OS also requires programs to be signed, and they charge a $99 fee for
developers to get a certificate.

As far as I'm aware IBM have historically been the enemy. They certainly
pushed Linux forward around the millenium, but since then I've not come across
them outside bloated "enterprise solutions" that I doubt many in the FOSS
world would consider relevant.

~~~
Valmar
> AMD promised open drivers. We're still waiting.

No, we aren't. AMD's promise was fulfilled quite a while ago. They officially
contributed, and work on, a FOSS driver for the Linux kernel, and also for
Mesa. One of their devs is one of the most active Mesa committers this year
alone.

AMD are more committed than Intel is, it would seem, given that AMD's drivers
are far better quality than Intel's.

~~~
chriswarbo
I'm happy to be corrected; for the record I searched for this before posting,
and found things like [https://linuxconfig.org/how-to-install-the-latest-amd-
radeon...](https://linuxconfig.org/how-to-install-the-latest-amd-radeon-
drivers-on-ubuntu-18-04-bionic-beaver-linux) which are very recent and talk
about installing AMD proprietary drivers.

(I haven't been tracking this closely since I've avoid NVidia and ATI (hence
AMD) graphics for about 15 years, due to their driver blobs)

------
nobleach
This annoys me, but in the end, I can click the "no thank you" button and it
all goes away. I do think their claims to be the "faster and more secure"
browser are dubious at best. But at least MS allows other browsers to be
installed. iOS will give you a Chrome lookalike with a WebKitWebView engine,
and no v8 JS engine. (I'm not calling JSCore bad). It's like saying, you can
have any browser you want, as long as it's Safari. I get _why_ they do it, but
it's an anti-competitive practice.

~~~
millstone
It feels like you're giving Google's ChromeOS a pass here.

~~~
asvitkine
You can install run Android apps on many Chromebooks now, so you can install
Firefox if you want: [https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-run-firefox-
quan...](https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-run-firefox-quantum-on-a-
chromebook/)

~~~
nAwYz
You can also install linux or on some even windows if you want

------
mjw1007
Good to see the new trustworthy Microsoft in action.

Coming soon: github.com "best viewed in Edge".

~~~
ekianjo
Better, they might end up blocking other user agents, or give specific
features you can only use with Edge. They love doing that.

~~~
bootlooped
I don't think they'll end up doing that for the same reason that Google didn't
put the Dart VM in Chrome. Nobody wants to be the one to start the nuclear
war.

~~~
sli
Google has done this before. When they blocked Hangouts in non-Chrome
browsers, spoofing your User Agent would allow it to load and, probably
predictably since I'm making this comment, Hangouts worked absolutely fine in
Firefox. Not sure if it still works these days, but I don't use Hangouts
anymore.

There's also the whole Shadow DOM v0 stuff with YouTube that more or less
artificially slows down rendering in non-Chrome browsers.

Google is just more subtle about it.

~~~
icelancer
I have never had this problem with Hangouts in Firefox. Hangouts has a million
bugs on its own, but it works similarly poorly in Chrome and Firefox and has
for a long time as far as I can tell.

------
robin_reala
Apple do it too: if you run Firefox or Chrome on a new macOS install a
notification appears trying to sell you on the idea of Safari.

~~~
Delmania
Let's talk about how with iOS you can't change the default web browser, email,
or calendar apps? If you remove Mail.app, install something like Airmail, and
then click on a mail link, you're prompted to reinstall Mail.app.

I don't like this move by Microsoft, but they called out on shit like this
more than other tech companies it seems.

~~~
scarface74
That’s a solvable problem, if anyone cared enough to solve it. Write a 3rd
party browser (yes I realize that it would be a shell over WebKit) and allow
the user to choose which app handles third party urls like mailto and maps
links.

Chrome for iOS already does something similar but you only get to choose
between gmail and the native mail client.

~~~
soft_dev_person
You really do not know how this works on Android, do you?

~~~
scarface74
Yes I do. But we weren't talking about Android.....

------
SamuelAdams
Maybe Microsoft should address the reasons why people do not switch? Look,
Edge is a fine browser - it's fast, stable, and easier (compared to IE) to
build websites for.

But it's not cross platform. I use a Windows desktop, Debian laptop, and Apple
phone. Edge is available on exactly one of those platforms, while Firefox and
Chrome are available on all of them.

Until that is fixed I will not consider edge, despite how fast or "secure" it
may be over the competition.

Edit: seems that Edge is available on the App Store[1], and Linux requires a
Wine workaround. I prefer native support, without hacks or clunky install
processes.

[1][https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-
edge/id1288723196?...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-
edge/id1288723196?mt=8)

~~~
tjoff
If I'm not mistaken safari is the only iOS browser, all other browsers are
just a skin for it. So thanks to apple there is _no_ cross-platform browser
that works on all your devices.

Unless you count safari, if they still bother porting that outside iOS/OS X.
In which case that wouldn't be preferable anyway.

There is nothing wrong with running different browsers on different operating
systems.

~~~
tstrimple
It really doesn't matter if Firefox on iOS is just a skin around Safari if it
integrates with the Firefox services and syncs bookmarks, history, etc. Right?
Isn't that the value you're getting out of the mobile browser, not the
rendering engine?

~~~
majewsky
> Isn't that the value you're getting out of the mobile browser, not the
> rendering engine?

Cannot comment on iOS, but the main value of Firefox on Android (vs. the
default Chrome) is that it runs extensions, particularly uBlock Origin.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Shared login data is probably the top one for me.

------
codemusings
What I don't understand is how companies with hundreds of deployments are
still fine with crap like this? You can't disable updates. Computers are
rebooted without asking. It's ridiculous.

~~~
detaro
Businesses don't use the Home version. The "higher" editions have more
control, and in a business setting you can manage those settings centrally.

~~~
pixl97
You mean the pro version.... Oops, sorry you need candy crush, you need the
Enterprise version to get rid of that!

~~~
minedwiz
Not even enterprise gets rid of that crap.

------
cwyers
I am not exactly happy about this, but this isn't behavior that makes them
stand out from the pack. Google constantly nags me about visiting their sites
in Edge, and I understand that the situation is much worse on iOS.

But if Microsoft wants to convince people to use Edge, they should start by
dumping a bunch of resources into sanding down the rough spots and applying
some spit and polish. It's like 90% of a satisfactory browser at this point,
maybe even 95%, but the remaining bits can be really, really frustrating.

------
zelon88
I don't understand why so many of you highly intelligent people subject
yourselves to this kind of stuff.

Here we are complaining about Microsoft, Google, and Mozilla's behaviour.
Arguing about openness, paying for software, market share. You control exactly
two of those things. You control what you pay for, and your choices affect
market share. Yet you're complaining about the level of open-ness of companies
who aren't trying to be open, hoping that someday it will change.

They don't change because their customers arbitrarily WANT them to change.
They change when their market share is threatened and they are FORCED to
change.

You want to make the Windows team listen? Stop using Windows. You want Mozilla
to stop using Google as their default search provider? Change your default
search provider manually. You want Google to stop spying on you? Stop using
Android.

A lot of people will argue that it's not practical, too much effort, too
costly. That's fine, but don't expect anything to change. You're acting like
sheep so you're being treated like sheep. In one breath you say "companies
only care about their bottom-line!" and in the next you whine "Microsoft is
upselling me, Googleplex is tracking me, Firefox is in bed with Google!"

Well, that's because Microsoft pushed Windows 10 in your face and you ate it.
Google tells you they'll sell your info and you let them. Firefox tells you
they're gonna hop into bed with Google and you said nothing about it. You're
screaming, but they have headphones on that are made up of your cash. When you
speak softly and carry a big stick, these companies will listen.

~~~
api
Too bad the open source world has consistently failed to create a good UX...
not because it can't but because the OSS community is still full of people who
have a fetish for complexity and who actually look down on good UX.

~~~
smolder
When "good UX" (highly subjective, btw) means limiting your ability to control
and optimize your own workflows, yes, some people reasonably choose control
over a low learning curve pre-baked option.

Catering to people who want a super easy streamlined experience is hard. They
want rigorous QA, tech support, and broad compatibility, all of which are very
expensive goals to chase with diminishing returns.

~~~
api
I don't think the core of UX is really that subjective. It's all about
consistency, polish, and most importantly cognitive load. _Eye candy_ is
highly subjective but that's not what I'm talking about.

~~~
majewsky
I think you're being downvoted because there is an ambiguity in what
"subjective" refers to here. The core criteria of good UX are not subjective,
as you say. But whether a certain UX qualifies as good under those criteria
depends highly on the audience.

A good video-editing UX for amateurs looks _completely different_ from a good
video-editing UX for professionals.

Long-time users of vim or emacs love their editors because of their UX, while
many new users hate them for the same UX.

~~~
smolder
Yes, that's a good distinction to make that I didn't capture well.

------
everyone
Remember the quaint old times when the very last vestiges of anti-trust still
existed in the US and MS got in trouble for this?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp).

~~~
zeusk
Lol, Google does this on every site they own since like 2008

------
titzer
Things are moving so fast that companies know they can run from any lawsuits
faster than they can be constructed. And yes, lawsuits are huge deals that
require a lot of preparation, especially if initiated by the FTC/similar. And
there isn't much appetite for regulation coming from Washington. Get ready for
madness to increase.

------
sharmi
For that matter, Google is not much different.

A few months back, I had to log into my Windows partition, something I avoid
as much as possible. I wanted to install firefox. So I get on IE, search for
"firefox" on google.com. Above all the results, the top prominent ad slot is
for Google Chrome.

Google stoops just as low as Microsoft.

------
V-2
"Don't want to be _warned_ in the future?"

Does that imply that having MS Edge installed is something to be _warned_
about, or that installing Firefox/Chrome is somehow bad for your PC?

~~~
drbawb
I agree, I personally read this as very threatening. In general I find that
Microsoft's messaging has lost touch w/ reality. Remember when MS used to say
"please?" \-- ever notice how nowadays instead of _asking you_ they _command
you_? "Don't turn off your PC", "We're getting things ready", "This may take a
while."

I've noticed this trend since Windows 8, but it's gotten really bad in Windows
10. Their messaging has become very anti-user.

My personal favorite from more recent builds of 10: "Windows is a service, and
regular updates are an important part of keeping it running." Oh really? A
service? My mistake, I thought I had licensed an operating system.

~~~
kevin_b_er
They want your money all the time now not just when they actually make a
better product.

------
BrockSamson
Seems Microsoft learned nothing from the anti-trust cases of the 90's

~~~
blackbrokkoli
Well they did learn to sell a better image convincing even the ever-cynical
HackerNews apparently, looking at the threads of last months.

~~~
techntoke
Hacker News has been plagued with PR companies pushing the content it wants
you to see for some time.

------
tyfon
If they show that screen in Norway they will have to be able to prove that it
is faster and safer than the others. If not it's misleading marketing
according to the law.

They can say "one of the safest and fastest" browser though.

We've had a number of cases like this over the years where a company makes a
statement like "the best pizza in town" and they can't prove it and have to
change the text.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
This is when you get tiny quotation marks added to signage -- "BEST PIZZA
EVER" (according to A N Owner).

I'm actually OK with non-measurable claims, "best" is abstract, the best pizza
is the one in your hand, or something.

Now, "biggest"/"fastest"/"$weight"/"$size"/etc. well they better damn well be
just that, if you're "footlong" is ever less than a foot (not on average
either!) then I want your company crushed until it bleeds money.

~~~
reitanqild
> This is when you get tiny quotation marks added to signage -- "BEST PIZZA
> EVER" (according to A N Owner).

Not sure that will fly in Norway.

Not really into consumer protection laws but I live in Norway and we had
this[0] discussion 3 weeks ago about the use of the word "free" and I guess
they might be equally picky about "best" as well (a good thing IMO).

[0]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17816096](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17816096)

------
blackbrokkoli
Remember getting downvoted on Hackernews for pointing out that you don't trust
their new image of "openness" and what not a month ago? People praising the
new line of the new CEO and analysing that there would be nothing to fear from
Microsoft anymore (github contret) - That didn't age too well...

~~~
pjmlp
I trust Google less than Microsoft, for example.

~~~
Spooky23
I would put them on the same pedestal.

I deal with Microsoft a lot. They are back to 90s Microsoft mode. You should
be skeptical of anything they say.

~~~
pjmlp
Me too, given that a big part of my job is done on MS stack.

Not all of us had a problem with 90s Microsoft mode.

Every time I have to deal with Android development chores I miss MS tooling.

~~~
Spooky23
From a technical side, 90s Microsoft was great. From a business/trust side,
not so much.

------
squarefoot
They don't just intercept the installation.

Yesterday an old neighbor phoned me that after an update he lost everything
and he could not connect to the Internet anymore. He spent most of his life
without computers and clearly is not a tech guy, but he's also not an idiot
and if some update warned of software deletion he would not allow it. Long
story short and in his words because I wasn't there, at every boot a requester
told him he had to allow an update, so he allowed it. The PC then kept making
its own business for some time and when he logged in back, everything was
gone. I took a look at the machine in the evening and yes, the desktop was
just like it had been freshly installed, with only the background and profile
avatar and credentials exception. The system also left a file on the desktop
containing a list of the deleted software; there were about 5 or 6 entries and
both Firefox and Chrome were on that list. Luckily all his documents were
still in their directory, but after reinstalling Firefox, all his bookmarks
and saved passwords were gone without a single warning and no way to recover
the profile data. I won't go further describing how annoying then became Edge
in remembering us it's the best possible web experience. Just no thanks, he'll
stick with Firefox (Chrome has become suspicious as well), and the Migration
to Linux is about one week away; he won't be the first 70+ years old user I
convert.

~~~
ishaanbahal
I think your neighbours machine went into some issue and did an automatic
restore to some working state, which probably was the first login state. The
files remained but the rest of the software got removed that probably don't
ship with Windows. So maybe this one was not MS trying to remove your open
source browsers, but just doing a system restore using an image.

~~~
squarefoot
A system restore from an image would wipe everything, luckily all user
documents were intact, including user login, password and desktop background.
But all personal data pertaining to 3rd party browsers was gone (all
passwords, all bookmarks) which suggests that an algorithm decided that
something in the user folders had to stay and something else had to go.

~~~
colemickens
Sounds like Windows 10's "Fresh Start" feature. [https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/software-download/windows10s...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-
download/windows10startfresh)

I could easily imagine someone stumbling onto this and running it. (Windows
Security -> Device perf & health -> Fresh Start).

------
jowsie
Is this really so different to what Windows 10 has always done though? When
you run Chrome/FireFox for the first time, it will tell you that Edge is
amazing now and that you should consider using it instead. It seems they're
just showing the recommendation earlier now.

~~~
icebraining
Oh, wow, didn't know about those (still on Win7 on my gaming desktop). I
really don't know how people can stand all these notifications, I can barely
stand the actually useful ones.

~~~
bovermyer
I just have them turned off, no big deal.

------
ekianjo
Valve and their Steam client may be next... "You already have the Windows
store which is the safest way to buy games...". It's coming.

~~~
majewsky
Which is exactly why Valve pours so much money in making Linux a palatable
gaming platform. They want an exit strategy when something like this happens.
Or when MS decides that the Windows Store is not only the safest, but now also
the _only_ way to buy Windows software.

~~~
ekianjo
Yes, I am clearly aware of that. This is why they are investing so much and
they pretty much have a good plan now since Steam Play/Proton can already run
many Windows games right from Linux.

------
013a
Last night, on my new Windows 10 machine, I received a notification "You got a
message on your phone; Want to see phone messages on this PC too?" I've never
installed Microsoft's phone app, and there's no way it could possibly know I
just got a message. In fact, I didn't just get a message at all, and hadn't
for hours.

So, they're lying. They're straight-up, bold-faced, red-handed, lying to their
customers to get us to install their spyware which reads and syncs your text
messages.

I'm finished with Microsoft. They're such a garbage company and always have
been.

~~~
pweissbrod
I'd be interested in knowing more about how this particular connection was
made. Do you have any educated theories on how the message was inferred?

~~~
013a
"We want people to install our phone app. Lets tell them they just got a
message, people get messages all the time so we'll probably be right, and
it'll seem like the feature is already working so all users have to do is
click a button."

------
mindcrime
A zebra doesn't change its stripes. This kind of behavior (in a general sense)
is a good example of why people were so worried about Microsoft acquiring
GitHub.

Remember, the scorpion ends up stinging the frog in the end, because that's
it's nature.

------
Flimm
I think the mods should modify the title to indicate that this applies only to
the insider build (so far).

~~~
cptskippy
Should they? You're technically correct but...

1) All the Microsoft haters are going to latch on to this and cite it as an
example of how truly evil is regardless.

2) It might stir the pot enough to encourage Microsoft to reconsider.

~~~
Dylan16807
> 1) All the Microsoft haters are going to latch on to this and cite it as an
> example of how truly evil is regardless.

I don't understand. Why should this not be cited? They shipped this code to
their customers. A limited release doesn't mean it unhappened.

~~~
cptskippy
Those customers signed up for it. It wasn't a random sampling. It's similar to
running a Firefox Nightly or being part of an open Beta.

Microsoft's Insider program is an opt in where you get to try out potential
features. There's a history of features being pulled from the channel, their
Sets feature was pulled in June.

~~~
Dylan16807
That's a fine reason to discount bugs, and realize nothing is set in stone.
But this is an intentional feature, and the problem is the intent itself.

------
eganist
I'm not saying it's right, but there's a chance Microsoft is feeling
emboldened to get away with it based on Google's success steering search users
to their own products.

In the beginning, it was just Microsoft.

~~~
techntoke
Does Microsoft not have a competitive product on mobile devices? Hmmm.. wonder
why.

~~~
eganist
That story's a lot more complicated, and a lot of it can be blamed on Evan
Spiegel and Snap.
[https://www.youthhealthmag.com/articles/31188/20160109/snapc...](https://www.youthhealthmag.com/articles/31188/20160109/snapchat-
app-windows-phone.htm)

Interesting follow-up there is that Facebook, in lifting so much of Snapchat
for use across Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, and Messenger, has been giving
Evan & team a pretty terrifying karmic kick in the rear... and though there
might not be a connection here, Microsoft _does_ own 1.~% of Facebook, after
all.

Disclosure: own shares of SNAP; probably not selling soon (it either wins by
chance or I write the whole company off as a loss). I don't exactly have the
best opinion of the company.

------
userbinator
When I see things like this, it makes me wonder how they detect a specific
installer, or if it's just something as mundane as hooking writes to change
the default HTML file association.

Still, the blatant advertising is repulsive.

No, Edge is _not_ faster than Dillo or NetSurf ;-)

~~~
fiiv
Could it perhaps be done with executable signing? If an installer is signed as
"Mozilla" perhaps, you might know you have a Thunderbird or Firefox install.

------
wslh
The UI/UX is the war territory, everything that is behind doesn't matter. The
browser is the new and more engaging TV. People engage in fierce discussions
about centralization vs. federation vs. decentralization but every approach is
killed by the final UI or aggregator where the user interacts.

------
dao-
> A user who initiates the installation of a browser does so on purpose.

That's not quite true, considering how Chrome ended up on many PCs, e.g.:
[https://www.ghacks.net/2012/02/26/avast-7-will-install-
googl...](https://www.ghacks.net/2012/02/26/avast-7-will-install-google-
chrome-if-you-do-not-pay-attention/)

------
LarryMade2
"We know what you are up to... Please do what we want you to do instead."

That's kinda the impression I get, there is definitely no sense of "security"
or "privacy" in this or in the first run of Chrome or Firefox messages that
also tend to show up.

It sounds more like "if you follow our recommendations we won't be so obvious
about us monitoring what you do."

------
gregknicholson
Presumably Microsoft can substantiate the claims that Edge is both faster and
safer than Firefox and Chrome.

But if not, I don't think the UK Advertising Standards Authority's remit
includes adverts built into already-installed software.

Microsoft can claim anything, whether true or not.

~~~
TwoBit
Edge may well be faster in some cases but now way is it safer. It takes
Microsoft weeks or months to fix bugs that Firefox and Chrome fix in days, or
even hours.

------
pmorici
Is the reason this matters to these companies because of the built-in search
providers and the money that comes from guiding users to a particular search
engine through those defaults?

~~~
ndespres
Could have a lot to do with ecosystem adoption. A Windows 10 user could get
used to Chrome and its apps and plugins, and thus pave the way for a
Chromebook purchase over a PC with Windows preinstalled the next time they're
shopping for a new computer.

------
JustSomeNobody
I look at this crap and I think, good grief, this is just such a waste of
developer time, user time, computer resources, etc. Think about this. Someone
had to add code to the OS to specifically check for this and pop up this
message. Wow. Our industry is taking a dump. It's truly sad.

Oh and not to mention that any code could potentially be buggy and lead to yet
more malware infections. Not something Windows needs help with!

------
makecheck
I particularly dislike marketing that uses terms like “safer”,
“faster”...compared to what? If you dig far enough into the fine print, it is
usually clarified as “...compared to our last crappy version” but the
_implication_ is that the product is superior to _any_ alternative. That kind
of phrasing is garbage and has no place in a user warning, much less anywhere
else.

------
enitihas
I think this sets a dangerous precedent. Till now it seemed that the desktop
was the last mainstream open computing platform due to it's legacy rooted in
standardisation, but that seems to be moving too. While iOS anyways treats
users as clueless and prefers being their "savior" instead of giving them
power, atleast their attitude can be justified in that mobile makes computing
available to people who have no time for understanding computers and need to
be protected. But I think even iOS doesn't intercept your downloads. Neither
does Android, the business model of which is supposed to be forcing people to
consume Google's services.

If an OS will intercept your download, and guide you towards a "better way",
how will a competing product even gain marketshare.

~~~
jenscow
> how will a competing product even gain marketshare.

One of the reasons against developing for the desktop.

------
anderspitman
> on a recent Windows 10 version 1809 Insider build

> While there is certainly a chance that Microsoft is just testing things in
> preview versions of Windows, it is equally possible that such a setting will
> land in the next feature update for Windows 10

Still don't like it, though.

------
chrisbennet
Oh boo hoo. Windows asks you if you wouldn't rather use the installed Edge
browser. Could it lead to them "intercepting" installs and disallowing them in
the future? Yeah, maybe it could. I'll worry about it when it does.

------
qwerty456127
I'd say this is defiantly unethical yet I feel like this can actually be
considered a good thing to exist: the web being monopolized by just one major
browser/engine (which is Chrome/Blink/WebKit nowadays) is obviously a problem
so anything than can increase presence of alternative browsers/engines can be
considered a contribution to the web ecosystem diversity (although, honestly,
I wouldn't recommend any of my friends/clients to use a Microsoft-made browser
as these have a strong history of being far behind the web standards progress
and exposing system vulnerabilities via ActiveX).

~~~
majewsky
> [Microsoft-made browsers] have a strong history of being far behind the web
> standards progress

They've catched up quite a bit on that front:
[https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-
edge/platfor...](https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-
edge/platform/status/)

Also, IE before version 6 had a history of being extremely innovative (DHTML,
anyone?). That's part of how they won the first browser wars (that and pushing
the browser through their OS).

> and exposing system vulnerabilities via ActiveX

Now that's just baseless fearmongering. Edge supports neither ActiveX nor Java
Applets. That's why IE is still around: for legacy websites in corporate
intranets that still require this junk. I'm not sure if IE is installed on
non-Enterprise SKUs of Windows 10, but it would surprise me if it was.

------
christogreeff
"Switch to Chrome, a smarter browser Google recommends using Chrome. Try it?"

Every. Single. Time I open Google using Edge. And Chrome is just as annoying
wanting to be the default browser.

How is this different to a prompt when I install Chrome?

Both are highly annoying.

------
anyzen
A few days ago I tried to install LibreOffice because a (legal) copy of MS
Word gave me trouble and I needed a fast solution. However max. download speed
I could reach was ~50k/s, bringing download time to almost an hour. Net speed
test on the same computer reached full speed with no problem. Download from
another (Linux) computer from the same URL was a matter of minutes. All of the
mirror sites I tried had a similar speed.

I thought it was just some weird misconfiguration, but now I wonder... Could
MS be actively slowing down downloads from LibreOffice to discourage users
from using it?

------
zamalek
Mozilla and/or Google would do well to figure out how their installers are
being detected (filename? Verisign certificate?) and simply change them. It's
harder to push an OS update than rename or re-sign a file.

~~~
sjwright
It'd be fairly difficult if the detection was registering a web browser with
the operating system...

~~~
zamalek
Maybe? There is an existing nag screen for that (default browser selection).

------
p0nce
I prefer this than the prospect of Google controlling 90% of browsers
worldwide.

------
zaarn
While on principle I think this is bad, I think overall MS should encourage
more users to switch away from Chrome. Chrome has +80% marketshare and quite
frankly, Google is abusing their monopoly on the browser market willingly,
otherwise they'd push for a more diverse market.

While this is quite the abuse of marketshare in OS to push Browser
marketshare, I don't think the EU will care that much considering that Edge is
a niche product, they will care once they do have a sizable chunk of browser
marketshare.

~~~
michaelmrose
It's an issue because of Microsoft's share of the pc market regardless of
their share of the browser market. Its abusing a monopoly that is an issue not
how successful this abuse is.

~~~
zaarn
In the EU how successful the abuse is does somewhat matter. The EU doesn't
like it when you have two monopolies and use one to reinforce the other.
They're generally fine with leveraging one to get an advantage in another
market space as long as you don't fall in the above category, ie as long as
you aren't a significant portion of the market.

I do sort of agree in this case because it creates more competition in the
market (ie Chrome vs Edge) which is healthy.

------
tabtab
The other browsers should counter with a message of their own: "Ignore
Microsoft Edge's pop-up spam, our browser is really better. Tell Nadella to
shove it."

------
pard68
This isn't much different that what both Windows and macOS do whem trying to
scare users into using app store software only. Macs use some rather scary
language (scary when you are not a "computer person") to dissuade people from
installing binaries from outside of the app store ecosystem. Microsoft does
the same thing, even worse if you have one of their Windows 10S versions which
locks you to app store software only.

------
unilynx
They've been trying similar things for months. Still, Edge isn't taking off
and IE11 sticks around.

IE11 is not going to die this way. Why can't they do what the Chrome Frame did
years ago, and just offer Edge-inside-an-IE11 frame so we can finally move
forwards JS-wise? I don't mind adding a dozen custom headers and meta tags
this time around, but please, come up with a way so every-day-web-developers
can get away from IE11's constraints

~~~
userbinator
I wish they would just keep the IE UI, and have Edge be the rendering engine.

The only reason I like IE over other browsers is because its UI hasn't changed
much and remains relatively un-dumbed-down and un-mobile-apped like a Windows
application should. Its configuration dialogs are also standard ones.

------
judah
> "Companies like Google or Microsoft have used their market position in the
> past to push their own products."

The article lost its credibility in the opening paragraphs.

~~~
eitland
> The article lost its credibility in the opening paragraphs.

How?

Microsoft was fined for bundling IE.

Google have not been punished yet but will hopefully IMO soon be for abusing
their position to push Chrome.

Edit: Two remove all doubt; I do not intend to defend any of these two. This
is abuse of market position by both of them IMO.

------
zvrba
No different from Google docs nagging me with a popup to install Chrome
whenever I open a Google docs document. And no option to disable it, it seems.

------
Someguywhatever
I use windows but not edge or IE, and putting my tinfoil hat on, my Chrome
performance has taken a dump recently... MEANWHILE.. edge is blazing fast. I
feel like something is going on. I don't want to use edge, but it's like my
internet is broken if I try to use chrome. It literally takes 30 seconds to
get to the page on Chrome, and instantly on MS Edge... IDK what to do about it
though.

~~~
Rumudiez
Use Firefox

------
Krasnol
I wish I could set that up for Chrome on win7 so my parents don't end up with
it every time they update some completely unrelated software.

~~~
techntoke
Chrome doesn't come packaged with very much software, and if it is then you're
probably installing the wrong software or they're just checking yes to
everything and you have bigger concerns.

~~~
Krasnol
I'm pretty sure it's some update. My guess is Avast. Other then that, I have
no problems. They use this laptop only for Skype. Even mails run only through
another laptop with mint on it.

------
vbezhenar
While I don't like this tactics, especially relating to Firefox, when Google
tries to install Chrome from its websites, I can understand why Microsoft
wants to fight back. I've used Edge a few monthes and those Chrome suggestions
were really annoying. Now Firefox is other matter and I think, Microsoft
shouldn't touch it.

------
kerng
All these companies that use this, it's better, safer messages are really
annoying. I thought Google's "get chrome" links and buttons everywhere are
bad, but intercepting an installation is probably even worse. These companies
really should just build better products. My main browser is Firefox, and that
wont change.

------
Yizahi
Just now Google decided that their News (or how it's called) app on my phone
should show notification for an article, first time in two years that I have
this phone. And who would have guessed - it was about this issue. Google is so
afraid that MS and Mozilla may slightly sway Google's hold on the Internet? :)

------
msoucy
Note that according to [1] they've disabled those again.

[1]: [https://www.onmsft.com/news/microsoft-quietly-takes-
controve...](https://www.onmsft.com/news/microsoft-quietly-takes-
controversial-edge-ads-offline-says-its-part-of-insider-testing)

------
meijer
I hope Windows 7 will somehow live forever.

------
jacquesm
It would be nice to have some views from those that keep claiming that
'Microsoft has changed'. All I see is a nicer wrapping around the exact same
company. Not that Google is any better with their incessant pushing of Chrome
(including fucking up the way their websites work with other browsers).

------
matchai
Sounds like Microsoft has now disabled the feature:
[https://twitter.com/FPresencia/status/1039899988837511169](https://twitter.com/FPresencia/status/1039899988837511169)

------
satysin
It is this kind of bullshit that makes me glad I switched to macOS a few
months ago. Windows is a good OS but for all the progress Microsoft makes in
other areas they fuck things up with this kind of crap that just make using
Windows a crappy experience.

------
cmurf
I don't like this behavior (deceptive assertions). However:

The user being actively steered away from an alternative browser, is unlikely
to expose the user to 3rd party risk. It might expose them to personal data
being collected by Microsoft.

Whereas, for example, Apple's latest hardware with Secure Boot, lacks both an
Apple signing service for UEFI applications, and the Microsoft UEFI public
certificate (which near as I can tell all non-Apple x86_64 hardware does
have). Linux distros get their shim pre-bootloader signed with the Microsoft
UEFI key, that's how they can leverage Secure Boot. But on the latest Apple
hardware, no Linux for you unless you disable Secure Boot. I've found no
support document how I can add enroll a key, either my own, my distro's, or
Microsoft's public UEFI key.

I think the Apple case is provably worse, it does expose users to 3rd party
malware.

------
frebord
Can someone who is part of a bigger organization describe to me how this might
happen, and what is the ultimate intent? Who would make such a decision and
why isn't there any push back along the way to implementing it?

~~~
sangnoir
Pointy-haired boss: "I've been looking at our numbers and they aren't great -
Google is getting a lot of installs via their Chrome ads on Google properties.
Is there anything we can do to stop them stealing users from Edge? We control
the desktop, right?"

Engineering lead: "I'll ask the Edge team to add an overlay when the user
visits a Chrome download URL, but that might change. The installers are signed
though, so we could check the package name and author at install time..."

Boss: "Great! Go for it- give me a timeline, this has highest priority for the
realease in N weeks"

------
tomelders
Only suckers trust Microsoft. That may be glib, but it's 100% true.

------
ConcernedCoder
It might as well say: "We monitor your every move, and highly disapprove...
Click here to return into our good graces, and be fairly confident we won't
mysteriously brick your system."

------
tomxor
Mozilla should add a counter install interception notification:

> "You appear to be installing Firefox on Microsoft Windows, there are less
> painful alternatives you know!"

------
make3
Isn't this just asking for another anti-trust suit

------
chillingeffect
I have a laptop with windows on it for ONE program: Fusion360, which
apparently does not run on Wine at this time. Windows 10 is so much worse than
Windows 7. it's become, like a "phone," a personal consumption terminal.

I remember when my old job blocked my installation of Tor. "Unwanted software
detected." Why wouldn't a company want people browsing with Tor? The
surveillance is increasing. Not as bad as China, but I hope I go to the grave
with something more positive to say than "not as bad as China."

~~~
cptskippy
> Windows 10 is so much worse than Windows 7. it's become, like a "phone," a
> personal consumption terminal.

How have the added convenience features added to Windows 10 that do make it
more accessible like a phone, equate to a reduction in your ability to work on
it?

I use Windows 7 as my primary workstation and I am constantly annoyed by the
rough edges. I'm looking forward to my company migrating me to Windows 10.

Bluetooth support in Windows 7 is horrid. The stack is proprietary to the
vendor and device support is unstable at best. Intel provides proprietary
drivers to Lenovo but doesn't change the Device IDs so Windows Update tries to
install the bog standard Intel Drivers. Their proprietary drivers don't
support Bluetooth 1.0 devices and their standard ones don't support A2DP.

While the Win 7 Startmenu's layout is ideal, the implementation is crap.
Pinned Apps and the quick access flyouts are the last thing to load (upwards
of a minute after logging in). The search prioritizes documents over Apps and
Control Panel so you're twiddling your thumbs waiting if you search for "Add
remove programs".

File Explorer can't make up it's mind if it wants you to use Favorites or
Libraries more. It enumerates Network Devices in the Navigation Pane just
cause. The Libraries in the Navigation Pane doesn't show all of the libraries
you have setup, it gleefully shows Videos and Pictures which I'm pretty sure
no one has ever used but leaves out Documents and OneDrive.

Ever tell your laptop to shutdown or hibernate, waited for desktop to fade
away to the throbber screen, then shut the lid? That's always fun because when
you open it up later it wakes up from sleep and finishes shutting down or
hibernating.

~~~
drbawb
>How have the added convenience features added to Windows 10 that do make it
more accessible like a phone, equate to a reduction in your ability to work on
it?

Because they've implemented those features in a managed runtime that is slow
as molasses. I have 64 GiB of RAM, a high-end enthusiast CPU (Skylake-X), an
NVMe drive, a high end GPU -- and the start menu _lags_ , and sometimes loses
keystrokes altogether. Search was completely broken for me between builds 1607
and 1709 (the start menu would not find recently installed apps, it would not
find any files _at all_ , etc.)

This completely disregard for performance and consistency infects every part
of the operating system they "update." \-- The new control panel's VPN applet
frequently gets out of sync w/ the actual state of the tunnel, and the
connect/disconnect controls stop working. There are many things you can't even
_do_ with the new control panel. There are many instances where you have to
wait for the control panel to fail it's happy path (e.g: printer auto
discovery) before it just gives up and presents you a link to the old printer
adding wizard.

Then let's talk about their updater: I've already told you I have what I
consider to be an enthusiast-class workstation, yet the last major update took
_over an hour_ to complete. What is it _doing_ w/ nearly an hour when it has
50,000 IOPS and 300Mbit/s of WAN at its disposal? Any Linux distro I have
_ever_ used can basically finish an installation as fast as it can do IO,
meanwhile the Windows updater doesn't even in-flight a second download while
the previous package is installing, and then it proceeds to waste my time with
three to four reboot cycles.

Then, after these updates are finally finished, they pull stunts like in the
OP. When it did the Fall Creator's Update (1709?) it reset my default browser
to Edge. (Nevermind that part of my job is web development, and I'm very
particular about the suite of browsers I have installed & how I have them
configured.) -- I've had Windows tell me I'm running out of RAM when I have
>30% left. (That's _20 gigabytes of RAM._)

This is absolutely insane, I have lost so much productivity to this pile of
trash. I have never regretted an OS purchase from Microsoft before, but I
regret this purchase, and that is coming from someone who owned _Windows Me_
and Vista.

~~~
cptskippy
It really sounds like you have a problem with your system affecting
performance. I have encountered none of the issues you describe. I even have
an Intel Celeron 2957U with 6GB of RAM and an integrated GPU doing CAM/GRBL
related tasks over RDC that runs like a top.

I also get the impression that you're primarily a Linux user who has to use
Windows and is just latching on to any reason to complain about it.

> Because they've implemented those features in a managed runtime that is slow
> as molasses.

To my knowledge the Windows 10 UI is written using the C++ Runtime, not a
managed one. The use of XAML is not an indicator of a managed language, UWP
Apps can be written in C++.

> There are many things you can't even do with the new control panel.

Microsoft is gradually migrating features from the Control Panel over to the
Settings App. As such the Control Panel still exists and is readily
accessible.

> There are many instances where you have to wait for the control panel to
> fail it's happy path (e.g: printer auto discovery) before it just gives up
> and presents you a link to the old printer adding wizard.

And for most people the happy path works and is significantly easier to deal
with. Not everyone is comfortable editing CUPS config files.

> the last major update took over an hour to complete.

How long does an distro-upgrade take you? Because that's the equivalent
procedure. It really sounds like a problem with your system because the Spring
Creators update too about 15 minutes on my systems.

> meanwhile the Windows updater doesn't even in-flight a second download while
> the previous package is installing

Windows 10 downloads all of the updates prior to attempting to install any of
them so... what are you talking about?

> I've had Windows tell me I'm running out of RAM when I have >30% left.

Again, that sounds like you have something else going on and you're just
blaming the thing you despise for all your woes.

------
partiallypro
This is only on insider builds, fwiw...I would be more worried if they pushed
this to the general builds. I bet it never makes it that far.

------
rafaelvasco
I've been getting more and more dissatisfied with Win10. I wish i could
migrate to linux but Steam/Games is still an impeditive.

------
snarfy
Nobody is going to give a crap about Edge until it is an open source project
like Firefox and Chromium. Releasing Chakra is not enough.

~~~
drb91
Like releasing Chromium is enough? Seems like a double standard to me.

~~~
techntoke
Chromium is great and everything works... even Mozilla's old CEO and
JavaScript creator switched Brave to Chromium. Not that it matters what their
old CEO does, given his history.

~~~
drb91
Right, but Google pushes its closed brother. Why does chromium give them a
pass?

~~~
techntoke
Where do I download the open source version of Safari, IE or Edge?

------
perlgeek
I can't imagine the EU and US antitrust regulators being very happy about
this, if it ever becomes widely deployed.

------
CyberDildonics
Just Microsoft continuing to boil the frog slowly as every big company seems
to do with the influence they already have.

------
Nursie
This has anti-trust written all over it, again.

------
tartrate
What are the differences on this matter between the European Union competition
law and the United States antitrust law?

------
pulse7
If this lands, they will get another x billion dollar fine from the EU. Looks
like the fine needs to be set higher...

~~~
wjoe
Does Windows still give you the popup with a choice of browsers to install in
the EU? I remember seeing it some years ago, but since then I've only used
Windows a few times with a business version in a VM, so not sure if that's
still present.

Seems like if they were forced to do that, there's no way they would get away
with this, but I'm not sure if that ruling still applies.

~~~
shakna
They were fine 561 million euros for letting that lapse in 2013.

Windows 10 still has N variants for Europe to comply with those rules.

------
matheusmoreira
Didn't Microsoft get sued for this kind of behavior? I thought they'd stopped
employing these tactics.

------
baybal2
It looks to me, they are getting desperate

~~~
eitland
Yep. I wish they'd rather lobbied the correct instances to punish Google for
abusively pushing Chrome instead.

If this goes through that will be a whole lot harder to do with a straight
face :-/

------
salawat
Again:

This is why computing is going off the rails, and computational literacy is
critical.

The computer belongs to the User. It's sole purpose is to compute, FOR THE
USER. If your software is running on someone else's machine. And you want data
exfiltrated back to you, normatively speaking, you should ANNOUNCE your
intention, EXPLAIN it, and ASK for permission, this includes honoring their
decision if they say NO.

The industry has clearly been sliding down a slippery slope in which
businesses have unilaterally decided that running THEIR software exempts them
from having to respect the User.

This is madness. If a society operated on the types of practices that are
considered "appropriate" in computing, we'd be liable to label them as
savages.

Keep your interbusiness competition OFF MY MACHINE!

(Thank God for Linux From Scratch!)

~~~
zarkov99
Microsoft's ultimate goal seems to be to be able to manage your computer as if
it was part of their cloud. And a fine goal it is (for them). It's the best of
both worlds, they control it but you pay for it.

~~~
afdsgujbuionio
Which actually sounds kind of OK to me. There are some users who can't manage
their own machines and don't want to. There's a reason most companies have a
central IT department.

The problem is twofold:

1\. There should be a single checkbox that says "keep your grubby mitts off my
machine." As it is now, users must proactively keep Microsoft out. Even then
updates can give Microsoft the keys again.

2\. Microsoft cannot be trusted to work in the user's interest. They always
steer the user towards Microsoft products.

~~~
794CD01
Checkbox seems unlikely, but this would be a reasonable way to distinguish
between the "home" version of the OS for normies and the "premium" version for
power users.

------
glonq
In the words of Raymond Chen, "I bet somebody got a really nice bonus for that
feature."

------
ajaygeorge91
I really wanted to try out Edge. But there are no extensions of any sort. With
out the password/bookmark managers and all, how can anyone get started in this
thing. I switch back and forth between firefox and chrome because of the cross
platform extensions. Microsoft should pay developers to bring their products
to edge. At least the popular ones.

~~~
jasonkostempski
I can't tell if you're joking. Why would you want to use a single-platfrom,
closed-source browser? We've been there, done that. You say you use Chrome and
FF for cross platform features so you must have cross platform concerns.
Anything they do to encourage developers and users to support it would be a
huge step backwards for the world.

~~~
woodrowbarlow
closed-sourced problems aside, a common plugin ecosystem is really all most
users would need to feel at home (if those plugins sync data between
installations). if i have my password manager available in two browsers, it
doesn't matter much that the "back" button looks a little different on my
phone versus my laptop.

i still won't use edge personally, but for other reasons.

------
rustcharm
iOS doesn’t even allow alternate browsers that aren’t just wrappers for their
engine.

~~~
anticensor
You cannot upload to AppStore yet there are efforts to build Servo and _real_
Firefox for iOS:
[https://github.com/servo/servo/issues/18154](https://github.com/servo/servo/issues/18154)

------
KiDD
They are also intercepting iTunes downloads and redirecting to the MS Store!

------
sigi45
Ghacks.net is a crappy page...

Notifications? No Startside? No Tracking everything? No

------
diebir
Who cares, really? Windows is mostly used in the offices, and at that, the
places too cheap to afford Macs. The home user and all semi-advanced tech
companies have long switched off Windows. Windows is irrelevant at this point.

~~~
ionised
If you're a PC gamer (and there are millions of them) you are almost certainly
playing on Windows, because you kind of have to.

And most business that are not big-tech (as in, most of the world's
businesses) are still utterly invested in Windows and Microsoft.

Enterprise has always been Microsoft's biggest cash cow.

------
cm2187
Does that happen for unattended installation too (chocolatey)?

~~~
techntoke
Yes, on first launch it prompts you to change but instead suggests that you
use Edge.

------
trhway
for all the talk about new MS, the new MS looks strangely like the old MS :)

------
pgnas
Linux.

Companies like this stifle innovation.

~~~
rootlocus
> Companies like this stifle innovation.

Perhaps. But then again, I'm using my iPad to draw with Procreate, and it's
the best experience I've had (both software and hardware). I'd argue in this
case Apple is quite innovative.

Things are never black and white.

------
jasonkostempski
Just uninstall Edge.

------
Havoc
Classic Microsoft

------
__warlord__
Wow, this is a new low, even for Microsoft

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
On the contrary. As those of us who lived through the 90s keep trying to tell
you youngsters, this is Microsoft's default operating level of low.

~~~
fiiv
Ha, good point, there was even a whole anti-trust case against them by the US
government in 2001.

~~~
ionised
And the EU.

------
FrameworkFred
People still run windows?

------
_pmf_
Tsk, tsk ... did we catch someone falling back into his old behavioral
patterns?

~~~
Piskvorrr
Back? Never left them, it merely improved its PR efforts.

------
pjmlp
If only Linux users would pay for desktop software, maybe we could have a Year
of Desktop Linux someday, instead we got Android and ChromeOS with their
stores.

Right now is it not worthy to build a business selling desktop software to
Linux, unless we are talking about enterprises, movie studios and a few other
niche markets that migrated from UNIX workstations to Linux desktops.

~~~
jarcane
Dude, no one pays for desktop software on Windows either, and it's doing fine.

~~~
kamarg
Just going off of the AAA game market your statement is obviously incorrect.
That doesn't get into productivity software, engineering applications (CAD, 3D
modelling, etc), or the very large variety of enterprise desktop software to
name just a few markets.

Not everything is a web app these days and many people still prefer to own
their software instead of being a recurring revenue source for the same
functionality month after month.

~~~
Spivak
People pay for games and specialized professional software -- indiscriminate
of platform. Outsize of those sectors you'll be lucky to sell a piece of
software not attached to a service.

------
jfig
Would Google allow edge on a Chromebook?

Microsoft has fallen in the market-share of OSs, can no longer be considered
monopolist move.

But yes, it's a new low, there was never a "new Microsoft" just better PR.

~~~
tssva
ChromeOS allows the installation of Android apps which includes a variety of
alternative browsers.

~~~
laurent123456
Including Edge -
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.microsoft....](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.microsoft.emmx&hl=en_US)

~~~
josefresco
That's ... hilarious. I'm actually excited to try this on my Chromebook which
is eligible for Android/Play apps. I'm not getting my hopes up though.

