

Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents - tshtf
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703834604575364871534435744.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories

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zb
I'd love to see some statistics on the number of these incidents that have
occurred with Toyotas versus other makes as a proportion of the total fleet.

These incidents happen all the time, and it almost always turns out that the
driver was standing on the accelerator instead of the brake. (Naturally they
adamantly deny it - if they'd thought they were pressing the accelerator they
would have stopped, after all. Everyone underestimates how much your brain can
play tricks on you in this situation.) Of course that does not eliminate
design flaws as a cause - for example in the Audi case the pedals were too
close together.

Ever since this all blew up I've suspected that it's quite possible the floor
mat recall may have simply brought a lot of cases out of the woodwork that are
actually not inconsistent with the normal "background" level of such
accidents.

~~~
124816
Not sure if you saw the graph hidden in the side: "Complaints rose after
Toyota recalled 3.8 million vehicles in November..." -- it makes the same case
as you.

Let's have an experiment: another manufacturer can institute a fake recall and
see what happens.

> Naturally they adamantly deny it

And, thanks to the nature of human memory, after the first few times they
aren't even intentionally lying. (A memory is part recall, part imagination.
Replay something enough times, it can become more of the latter than the
former.)

~~~
bdurette
Faking a recall is a bad idea. Consider the possibility that Toyota drivers
were primed by the media hype to believe that the acceleration problems were
real and out of their control. Thus, when they found themselves mistakenly
pressing on the accelerator, they were less likely to reevaluate the
situation. If they had, they would have realized what was happening and
pressed the brakes. The accidents, regardless of cause, were real and
dangerous. Inducing more accidents to prove a point is bad policy.

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cypherpunks01
Not too surprised either.

But one thing I never understood is how a stuck pedal (one that's actually
stuck) can lead to a car accelerating out of control. How could it possibly
prevent you from taking the car out of gear, rolling to a stop and turning the
thing off? Does it actually affect the ability to shift? Or are drivers just
panicking and being dumb? Or do people who own a fancy automatic Lexus
actually not know what the "N" on their shifter means?? I sincerely hope it's
not the latter.

~~~
phaedrus
The article says the data recorders indicated the brakes were not applied at
all but the accelerator pedal was floored. In other words, people thinking
they're standing on the brakes when really they're standing on the gas pedal.

A person comfortable with technology will react to a surprising result by
immediately changing what he's doing on the controls to search for cause and
effect; for those who have difficulty with technology it is because they can't
think scientifically and react by trying to do more of what wasn't working.

~~~
stcredzero
I long to live in a society where "difficulty with technology...because they
can't think scientifically" is seen as a disability!

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epochwolf
Why am I not surprised?

This can happen to anyone. I accidentally shifted into reverse instead of
drive and backed into the corner of my parent's garage. And when I saw I was
backing up (slowly) I slammed on the gas. I managed to hit the brake fast
enough to avoid damaging my SUV but not the garage.

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mustpax
I wonder if the same sensors that provide the log data also control the
engine. In that case, it would be impossible to distinguish a sensor glitch
from user error by purely relying on in-system logging.

This sort of thing happens all the time when debugging production servers. The
same system usually provides the control signal and the diagnostic data. So
what initially looks sane, if you keep investigate it, can lead you to a real
bug.

I've been pretty skeptical about the whole Toyota stuck accelerator brouhaha
myself but this development does not necessarily rule out a design flaw.

~~~
sliverstorm
Really? I mean, we can agree that if there is a glitch that makes the ECU
think the throttle is WFO, the log will say WFO.

The important thing is that the log also says the brakes were completely
inactive.

Also, consider that the brakes will operate no matter what the ECU thinks, and
in at least one case the brake pads themselves were examined, and experts
concluded they had not recently been applied at high speeds under full force.
The findings support eachother.

~~~
ams6110
I recall at least a few reports, I think one was on a recorded 911 call and
another observed by a state trooper following, that brakes were applied and
after the car was ultimately stopped there was evidence (burned brake pads,
brake rotors discolored by heat, etc.) that the brakes were in fact used.

It may be that there were a few genuine throttle malfunctions which, once
reported, brought all the "accidentally stepped on the gas pedal" accidents
out of the woodwork.

~~~
mattmcknight
If you are referring to the Sikes case near San Diego, that was likely a hoax
perpetuated by a bankrupt insurance scammer, an expert driver who supposedly
didn't want to put it in neutral and was observed speeding up and slowing
down.

The car rental agencies stacking double floor mats is a real issue though,
regardless of car model. I had a Saturn where a secondary mat slid under the
pedal and got trapped. I never understood the purpose of floor mats anyway. I
just take them out.

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charliepark
There was a piece on this in the Washington Examiner 4 months ago, here:
<http://bit.ly/dmG12o>. It basically noted that almost all of the fatal
accidents involved elderly drivers, who, presumably, would be more likely to
get confused about which pedal they were pushing:

"In the 24 cases where driver age was reported or readily inferred, the
drivers included those of the ages 60, 61, 63, 66, 68, 71, 72, 72, 77, 79, 83,
85, 89—and I’m leaving out the son whose age wasn’t identified, but whose
94-year-old father died as a passenger."

"These “electronic defects” apparently discriminate against the elderly, just
as the sudden acceleration of Audis and GM autos did before them. (If
computers are going to discriminate against anyone, they should be picking on
the young, who are more likely to take up arms against the rise of the
machines and future Terminators)."

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brc
I think the fact that over half of the quotes in this articles is from lawyers
tells the real story here. Lawyers see a recall, a rich multinational, and
some dumb people who will swear that they didn't hit the accelerator instead
of the brake.

The NHTSA is a thorough organisation - this isn't some sham front for Toyota.

I just wish someone would publish statistics on make/model for unintended
acceleration accidents. I bet the Toyota case is not statistically
significantly higher than all other makes and models. But give people
something other than their own stupidity to blame and they will grasp it with
5 hands.

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pmjordan
My initial thought when hearing about all of this was exactly that: they hit
the accelerator instead of the brakes. It took me a while to realise why they
weren't standing on the clutch: most cars in the US have automatic gearboxes.

I'm guessing this sort of thing basically doesn't happen when you have a
clutch, which, if you're used to driving cars with a manual transmission,
you'll instinctively jump onto when braking. If you hit the gas instead of the
brakes, you won't stop very fast, but at least you won't accelerate.

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ianium
"An attorney who represents four drivers who sued Toyota in state courts over
sudden acceleration said the NHTSA finding doesn't mean much for his
litigation."

Gotta love how a scientific study by an impartial 3rd party never gets in the
way of the legal balance of probabilities and a jury of average Americans.

~~~
smackfu
So you were expecting the attorney to say "oh we are screwed now."

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sliverstorm
> Ms. Marseille said in an interview Tuesday that she was entering a parking
> space near a library when she heard the engine roar. "I looked down and my
> foot was still on the brake, so I did not have my foot on the gas pedal,"
> she said.

Ms. Marseille, if you are so sure that is what happened, I invite you to sit
in my friend's '09 Camry, and from a stop, stand on the brakes and then
simultaneously floor the engine. Let's see if you go anywhere.

There is a reason cars can brake many times faster than they accelerate. The
only way to start moving in the above situation involves really big engines,
manual transmissions, and careful 2-foot, 3-pedal technique.

> "It makes me very angry when someone tells me, 'She probably hit the gas
> pedal instead,' because I think it's a sexist comment, an ageist comment,"
> she said.

If someone has proof, it is neither sexist nor ageist. (I'm calling the
surveillance video evidence that the brake lights did not go on proof. Brake
lights basically can't malfunction, short of blown fuses or bulbs, yet they
turned on after the impact)

~~~
jonafato
Also, she mentions people saying "She probably hit the gas pedal instead", not
"She probably hit the gas pedal instead because she is in a certain age range
and female". People shouldn't confuse a statement about a person with a
statement about a group, data supported or not.

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DEADBEEF
_The NHTSA spokeswoman said the agency wouldn't comment on its Toyota probe
until a broader study is completed in conjunction with NASA, which is expected
to take months._

NASA? really?

They then went on to mention 'the National Academy of Sciences', so I'll
assume it's a misprint.

~~~
colonelxc
Yes NASA, really.

[http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/30/autos/NHTSA_NASA_Toyota/inde...](http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/30/autos/NHTSA_NASA_Toyota/index.htm)

 _The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which has been
criticized for lacking sufficient technological expertise, has recruited nine
experts from NASA to help the agency understand how issues such as
electromagnetic interference may have contributed to Toyota's acceleration
issues.

Separately, the National Academy of Sciences will conduct a study of
unintended acceleration and electronic vehicle controls across the entire
automotive industry. _

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stretchwithme
cameras are cheap. take a low resolution photo every 5 seconds when the gas is
fully depressed, store the most recent 20 and we'll know for sure whats going
on.

