
Ask HN: Do kids drag your career down? - giantg2
It seems that since I had a kid my career is in decline. I am currently working from home, but prior to this I would need to be home at a specific time to watch the kid. This obviously means I have less time to spend at work. Less hours means less dedication in the eyes of management.<p>On a side note, I took parental leave last year and was basically told by a manager friend that it means a lower rating.<p>What is your experience?
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basseq
Kids—I have 3—reinforce attributes that should be valuable in the workforce.

* I ruthlessly prioritize — you have to when you're balancing a family.

* I don't dwell on mistakes – milk, quite literally, is spilled on a daily basis.

* I'm a better manager – kids teach you to be clear and immediate in your feedback, not to mention more empathetic

* I speak better – reading bedtime stories means you practice public speaking every night

A company that measures performance in hours or dedication will not reward
those attributes. But the good ones will happily give you flexibility in
exchange for good work.

If you're struggling to find a balance, know first that you're not alone. But
recognize quickly that your employment environment may be incompatible with
family life, and so what's "slowing your career down" is your management...
not your kids or your own performance.

~~~
new_realist
If you have all of these attributes and have kids, you will not progress as
fast as someone who has all of these attributes and no kids: they have more
time, more energy, more sleep, and more money. They can afford to take more
risks. Finally, they probably have an aching void in their personal life which
they will try to fill with career ambition. This is all reflected in women’s
pay statistics: those who wait to have kids earn more over their lifetimes.

~~~
basseq
My point is that having kids _massively strengthened_ those attributes in
me—and others I've spoken with. I wouldn't have been in the same position
otherwise.

All this is to say... it's not about fast or slow. It's about _different_ and
finding what works.

And there are counter-examples, too. I worked with a guy who ran a global
business unit—a couple billion dollars, probably—and had 5 kids. Might he have
been _even more successful_ had he remained childless? Maybe... who knows. He
was good either way.

I volunteered with a woman who is now the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. She
brought her daughter with her, and doing social good as a family was an
important part of her personal _and_. professional life.

If you're good and driven, it doesn't matter.

~~~
apohn
>If you're good and driven, it doesn't matter.

So I don't mean to be a pedantic ass here, but the "I'm a CEO and I have a
wonderful home life" is probably the exception, not the rule. The reality is
that you can't be a CEO on a 9-5 schedule. You probably have a lot of help for
all those times you have to travel, stay late, leave early, etc. Something is
going to be scarified.

That being said, you can have a successful career without becoming a CEO or
running a global business unit. So it's not 100% career or 100% family.

~~~
basseq
Absolutely true. You have to decide where your priorities are, and what you’re
willing to sacrifice.

My point was the simpler one that having kids in of itself doesn’t hold you
back.

------
mikekchar
I'm over 50 and don't have kids. It is incredibly unlikely that I ever will
have kids ;-) Has it helped my career significantly? I don't think so. I know
lots of people who are more successful than me in objective terms that do have
kids.

Not having kids means that you get to be selfish. That's pretty much it. If
you _want_ to devote yourself completely to your job, you can. I did that for
some time. It was fun for some time :-) If you want you can travel a lot. I
did that too. If you want you can quit your job and live in a shack by the
ocean and teach English. I did that too.

Having children is always going to be a tradeoff. It requires time, energy,
focus, and huge amounts of money. It requires you to be responsible, to
prioritise and above all to be selfless.

On the other hand, based on virtually everybody I know who has kids (and
doesn't have other significant problems in their life), there is a pretty
significant payback. If you have a child, I assume you understand that
payback.

I realise that it's tempting to want it all. It seems unfair that people who
prioritised other things got advantages that you don't have. Trust me, I
understand that. I've lived all around the world. I've worked in many super
interesting jobs. I've been able to literally say "Fuck it" and forget about
money and just do what I want. But I'm _never_ going to be able to go home and
give my child a hug. Trade offs.

~~~
cambalache
As someone who will probably be in your shoes in some years let me
congratulate you on your comment. It is honest, real, matches perfectly with
my experience and it strikes a good balance between the pros and cons of
having children. Many many people with or without kids have their identity too
entangled to that condition and fail to recognize the delights and sorrows of
the other condition.

------
av501

      Ever since i have had a kid, I have started asking the reverse question; Is my career dragging my parenting down?

I always wanted be a good dad, whatever that means to each one of us, my
career choices started showing up in conflict. I had to make choices. Overall,
over the past few years having a kid really made me think about my priorities.
It made me focus and plan more and improved my ability to do more in less
time. The first few years are hard and you will not be able to give as much
time to your career if you want to spend that time with your child and spouse
in constructive ways. Which is fine because the career is 40 yrs long. My
conclusion is that I chose to have kids and now I will work on maintaining
that relationship because at end of the day you can change jobs, go to a place
that recognises people have lives, do something else in your life apart from
your current career (you never know), but your kid is your kid and not someone
else's and the early years will not come back again. As for my experience with
my manager - As long as i get the work done, my place of work doesn't care
about being seated in office. With Work From Home now taking off there are
plans of making this semi permanent even if things go back to normal. Edit:
formatting

~~~
giantg2
Thank you. I definitely try to strike a balance. As the primary earner, I feel
there is a lot of pressure on me to deliver. It is definitely a difficult
balancing act to balance being there for my family and providing for them. I
look forward to this being only a few difficult years like you said.

------
AntonRR
Honestly that's the worst way to look at it. In the grand scheme of things
kids are way more important than any career. Obviously kids drag your career
down but ask yourself: what are you going to leave behind after you die? Will
you be yet another inheritance the government gets after you die? Yet another
dead SSN? Or will you leave behind something far more valuable than a mere
product like 2+ living beings continuing your bloodline and thus making the
world better,safer and one step closer to the future? You are a mere spec a
mere nothing compared to earth... 1 out of 8 billion... You can't live
forever, you can't bribe death, you can't even delay the inevitable by a lot -
the best you could do is on average 10 years in pain and misery... When you
are old and sick who will be there to hand you a glass of water? Who will wipe
your __* when you can 't... Who will defend you against bad people when you
are too old? Your money devalues with each day, the clock is ticking, every
second passes never to be seen again you are one second closer to death and
you can't bring your money to the afterlife... Kids will outlast you... Money
is worth as much as people say it does.

~~~
tasuki
> In the grand scheme of things kids are way more important than any career.

So, you're not a utilitarian?

> far more valuable than a mere product like 2+ living beings continuing your
> bloodline and thus making the world better,safer and one step closer to the
> future

I'm not seeing how leaving more people in the world is necessarily making it a
better place. Why should it be better that way? Why should OP's offsprings be
making the world a safer place? What does "one step closer to the future" even
mean in this context?

The concrete negative impact of producing more humans: more consumption (even
if they're non-consumptionist), more global warming, more destabilized
ecosystem.

> When you are old and sick who will be there to hand you a glass of water?
> [...] Who will defend you against bad people when you are too old?

People often worry about securing help for their old age. Can't raise a glass
of water and can't defend against bad people? Perhaps one led a good life -
what issue is there with just letting go? Alan Watts said the second half of
life was all about preparing to die.

Fwiw, I'm planning to have children, for my own selfish reasons. The reasons
you cited don't speak to me much.

~~~
viklove
Having children is probably the most selfish thing we do as humans, but most
people who have children spend a lot of time convincing themselves otherwise.

------
jennyyang
Yes, 100% completely. Once I had my kids, I was never as productive as I was
pre-kids.

But it was completely worth it.

~~~
pricees
Likewise.

My perspective on life completely changed.

I am not even sure i was more productive. I certainly had more me time,
coding, reading, working out. But time with my kids is beyond rewarding. I
still need an income, but my image, ego, and self worth is not attached to my
job or validation from my peers....now its attached to my 2 year olds whims
and my ability to change a dirty diaper in 30 seconds. Flat.

------
swalberg
"watch the kid" \-- I think you spelled "be a parent" wrong.

I don't know where you are in your career, or what your expectation is of a
career, but there are lots of companies out there where you can do interesting
things, be well paid, and have time to balance your work and family life. You
just need to look for it just like you were looking for a higher salary, more
responsibility, or even use of a particular technology.

Asking about it at an interview may get you an answer, or rather, anything but
an emphatic "yes" with some examples may be a strong negative sign. But I
think the key thing is to decide what you want out of both a career and a
family, and to find the job that puts you on that path.

~~~
giantg2
I've thought about moving to a different company. My current company is in the
top 20 best places to work in IT (computer world), although I don't know how
much i trust that rating. They talk a lot about work-life balance. Do you have
an example company to recommend?

I don't seek a high salary - just enough to live without fear and to someday
retire. I hope to do interesting things, but I would be fine with boring tasks
if I have a good work culture. It would be difficult to switch since my
experience is in Neoxam and Filenet.

Thank you for your input.

~~~
Fire-Dragon-DoL
If what you said it's true, that rating is worthless. How can be a top 20 if
you get a lower rating just for taking parental leave?

That's awful. Whoever had a kid can tell you how hard is the first month. And
if all goes well, the first month is hard. If you have even a little hiccup,
the first month is SLEEPLESS.

~~~
giantg2
They get the rating because overall it's a pretty good place and they won't
tell you the real reason behind your rating - they always have a cover story.
I have friends who are managers. They've told me things they shouldn't tell an
employee. For example, if a manager picks someone for the highest rating, some
departments require the manager to give someone a below average rating to
"balance it out", even if they don't deserve it.

~~~
Fire-Dragon-DoL
That's a terrible company you are describing...

~~~
giantg2
They are good on paper. So unless you're one of the 3-5% getting screwed (and
realize it)... They offer 6 weeks paid parental leave, upto 14% 401k, $100
extra per month for 5 years to pay off student loans, profit sharing, 100%
grad school tuition, 1 VTO day, outcomes based evaluations (so they say), and
pay for performance (so they say).

------
geerlingguy
Having kids (3 so far, 3, 5, and 7) helps me prioritize my time better. Before
getting married and having kids, I was all over the place, had poor routines
and probably some unhealthy habits in terms of diet and sleep. Having other
people depend on you changes your priorities quickly.

Also, it's very difficult at times, but incredibly rewarding, more so than
even the best programming highs I've had, when you can see a new thing one of
your kids learned, and realize you were part of that.

Their imagination also keeps my brain a bit more flexible, especially as I try
to join in their own crazy fun. And being able to act more like a kid with
them also keeps me loose and a little crazy, which helps me to be more
positive and, maybe, 'chipper', in my interactions with workmates. At least I
think so.

Again, there are very difficult times as a parent. But the highs are so much
higher when they come, and I would not trade it for being back in the bachelor
mentality and spending more of my live donating overtime to a corporation
(though there are some very positive things from that part of my life too, and
I have some friends who would probably not thrive as parents!).

------
quickthrower2
Your career isn't necessarily your job. If you work somewhere where they judge
you for having kids then it might be best to move on. Do they judge people
with hobbies, pets or drinking habits a similar way? The only time that is an
issue is in industries where you genuinely need to work a lot of hours, which
are few. Trading desk, pilot or surgeon springs to mind.

Also if a company requires you to do 60 hours of coding instead of 40 and it's
just JIRA tasks adding feature X Y Z then those extra 20 hours don't help your
career at all, but if you did a 40 hour job and spent 10 hours learning
carefully selected skills in your spare time that would help your career a lot
over time.

~~~
shostack
>"If you work somewhere where they judge you for having kids then it might be
best to move on."

For many, this may be viewed as a fairly privileged statement. Particularly
with Great Depression-level unemployment, simply "moving on" isn't really an
option for many (most?).

~~~
quickthrower2
True. I don't mean it to come out that way. However even if it is privileged,
it is sage advice to keep yourself as employable as possible at all times,
keep an eye on the market, what skills and interview questions you need to
nail, etc.

------
rootusrootus
Not for me. It's turbocharged my career. It helps that I'm at the level where
management isn't seeing my contribution as hours in a chair. Having kids gave
me something in common with all of our senior management. Anecdotally, that
improved relationship has been a hell of a boost for my career success.

It certainly will depend on your individual situation. If your management is
all childless workaholics, I can see how it would totally count against you.

~~~
giantg2
Having something in common is good. Managers are expected to work 9.5 hours
per day and be available 24/7 to recieve calls/texts/emails on their phones.
So even if they have kids, they need to put in 50 hours a week, which isn't
too bad I guess.

------
derekp7
In my experience, once I moved in with someone that had kids and I started
talking about family at work, it seamed like I got bigger raises and better
promotions. Whereas pre-family, I was seen as "just a kid, a smart one, but
still just a kid". After I was treated as an adult.

~~~
roboyoshi
I partially felt the same, but you also go into negotiations with a lot more
knowledge about life cost. Kids cost money. Daycare costs money. A car costs
money. And you suddenly realize that your paycheck needs to cover a lot more
than what it had to before. I felt much more comfortable asking for a higher
salary, just because I knew I had a family to feed and not just me.

------
AshArchangel
What's interesting is that I have observed the opposite in my career. I have
often seen that employees who have children are afforded more flexibility,
shorter hours, and less work than those who do not have children. While I
understand these are necessary if you have children, a disproportionate amount
of work and higher expectations are given to those without children in my
office. For example, if you have a child, that is a perfectly acceptable
reason to work from home, but simply wanting to work remotely is not accepted.
Do I need to have a child to work from home (especially because I can't have
children...lol)? Anyway, this is obviously not a universal experience across
companies (and trust me I'm happy that parents have these perks at my
company), but I do find it frustrating when someone is expected to stay at the
office until midnight because "what else would they do" if they don't have
children lol. Basically, everyone should have less work, more flexible
schedules, and realistic expectations given to them regardless of their
personal life.

~~~
apohn
I suspect one big difference is that when you have young children is that you
can't bend on "No, I can't work." When you don't have young children you can
bend (even if you don't want to), and you say "No" but do "Maybe."

I've seen this with people before they have kids and after the kids are a
little older. They occasionally bend and work a bit extra, check emails after
hours, etc, and then before you know the it the manager expects this person is
available since they did it before.

Sadly, at one company where I worked the young single person had to lie and
say they were heavily involved with educational activities at their church and
they couldn't work extended hours because of that. I know they were not 100%
honest about the hours required for that, but management needed some mental
excuse to say it's okay for them to just work normal hours. It's stupid, but
sometimes that's the only way to do it.

------
cephaslr
I used to get really worked up early in my career trying to win the ratings
game. When I got older I began to question the concept of the career,
ironically when I finally started ‘winning’ at it.

1\. Ratings and promotions within a job/company are boss personality and
politically dependent and typically very unfair. Lots of hard work goes
unrewarded.

2\. Even if you do get lucky and get a promotion, your prize is 5-10% salary
bump (maybe) and more work, stress and meetings (I don’t much enjoy meetings
myself). Look closely at most big company executives and think if you really
want the job for more than the social prestige/ego. They travel a ton and are
always in meetings, it gets old.

3\. So if the executive jobs are undesirable, then climb the ladder for money?
It takes allot of money to make a difference, I.e you need $500k in the bank
to ek out approx $1500 a month in cash flow at 4%. If you making $100k
annually or $150k annually, $200k, or even $250 its still going to take over a
decade to save a decent amount of money. The 5-10% salary bump doesn’t make
much difference.

So why a career? There are likely more efficient ways to make money if that’s
your goal. Starting a business, blogging, consulting, etc may have more risk
but the ceiling is uncapped unlike a ‘career’. So why sacrifice something
wonderful like time with your child? Money? Ego? You want a great LinkedIn
profile one day? If given the option tomorrow, I would max my parental leave
unless it impacted teammates in a negative way.

I would genuinely be interested if this is a minority sentiment?

~~~
throwaway393059
I don't plan on having kids, but as someone early in my career, I can agree
with the sentiment.

I haven't even experienced the unfairness mentioned in many comments, but I
just don't see the need to focus on climbing a work ladder at the cost of
things socially or personally. As long as I do my work and enjoy it, a
promotion is nice (I'm not giving up or being complacent necessarily) but it's
simply not a big motivating factor in my life. I would/will happily slow my
career trajectory if it means getting more time with close friends, romantic
considerations, etc.

I think I'm in this boat because my career and interests are pretty
orthogonal, where I think the HN community self selects for people who define
some or much of their personality from technological pursuits that can often
tie back heavily to work. When your work is more than your work, I think this
question almost rephrases itself to be self vs kid, which I can understand
struggling with.

------
irrational
> Less hours means less dedication in the eyes of management.

You need to change jobs. I work for a fortune 100 company that is extremely
supportive of kids and families. They don’t just talk the talk, but they
actually walk the walk.

~~~
giantg2
I work at a company in the top 20 IT best places to work. Your statement
sounds almost like their's. I feel like I can't switch due to lack of
experience, and of course the current market downturn.

------
reuven
Yes, kids take time. Lots of time. So if you believe that more time at a work
is better, and that it's a zero-sum game (i.e., time with children will take
away from time at work), then yes, having children will be bad for your
career.

But there's a ton wrong with that thinking.

First: Exercise takes time away from work. Vacations take time away from work.
Sleeping takes time away from work. And yet, even the most die-hard workers
realize that they have to exercise, take vacations, and sleep. And that doing
so makes them better people, healthier and more well-adjusted. And even better
able to do their jobs.

I can't speak for everyone, but I've found that my children -- now 19, 17, and
14 -- have not been distractions from work, but complements to it. They have
helped me to find insights, to understand myself and the world, and to
generally be a better person.

Second: It's possible to make lots of money and have a great career with
children. It's also possible to do so without children. So it's not an
either/or situation. Yes, you'll have to prioritize. Yes, you'll be frustrated
sometimes that you can't finish a work project because the kids need you. But
it also gives you some perspective, understanding that even if your project is
delayed by a day, that's OK.

Third: There's no doubt that children can be maddening, frustrating, and time
consuming. Especially when they're young, they demand lots of attention. But
in my case, all of that frustration was easily counterbalanced by the joy,
excitement, and fulfillment that comes from having children, speaking with
them, and learning from them.

Finally: If your job means that you have to dedicate yourself to it, to the
exclusion of everything else, is that really a job you want? If your company
doesn't encourage you to take time with your family, or for yourself, what
sorts of people are working there, and do you really want to be working there?

I don't know if I would be a _worse_ consultant, trainer, and developer
without my children. I would be a different one, though. And given how happy
and successful I am now in my personal and work lives, I wouldn't want to be
that other person.

~~~
apohn
>Yes, kids take time. Lots of time. So if you believe that more time at a work
is better, and that it's a zero-sum game (i.e., time with children will take
away from time at work), then yes, having children will be bad for your
career.

>There's no doubt that children can be maddening, frustrating, and time
consuming. Especially when they're young, they demand lots of attention. But
in my case, all of that frustration was easily counterbalanced by the joy,
excitement, and fulfillment that comes from having children, speaking with
them, and learning from them.

All of the above!

One way I try to think about this is by looking at all the people I've worked
with who are at the top of the ladder. CxO, EVPx, GM, etc. The vast majority
of them work crazy hours, travel all the time, are constantly attached to
their email, etc. They only way for them to do that is to sacrifice time with
their families and have a partner who basically does all the family stuff.

If that's what you want AND you want to spend lots of time with your kids,
then kids are going to be an impediment to that. If that's not what you want,
then I think it's question of finding a balance between what you want out of
your career and life. Most certainly if your kids are very young and you want
to spend time with them, your career might move a little slower.

------
NDizzle
No. Well... no. My first kid was born in 2006. I left a big 4 accounting firm
after an acquisition in '10\. Tried to do a start up with a friend... Health
food delivery in Oakland in 2010, without any connection to any of the big
VCs. Failed. Second kid was born the fall of '10, third in Winter '13.

Looking at raw income numbers, I was making 85k in '06, 75k in '10 (had to
find a job quickly after the startup failed - insurance needed for the child
birth!) and around 95k in '13\. I'm making around 280k right now, so I think
I'm on track regardless of having kids or not. A key to my income is that once
I stopped working in an office and got rid of my ~75 minute one way commute, I
started a part time job, remote software development. That was project based,
not raw hours, and since then my primary job has also changed to project
based, not raw hours. I'm not killing myself each week like a lot of stories I
hear. On a real busy week I'll do about 50 to 55 hours.

Now, another measure to consider, I have coached little league for about 5
years, travel softball for 2.5. My busiest season was fall '19 where I coached
little league, ran the LL skill building clinic, head coached a travel team
(10u) and assistant coached my older daughters 14u team.

I'm starting jiu-jitsu next week with my son. I've reduced the amount of
coaching down to just two teams total. No head coaching.

My advice: prolab caffeine pills!

~~~
lizardking
This may be a silly question, but what benefits do you find in caffeine pills
over just having a cup of coffee?

~~~
NDizzle
Efficiency. Cost if you are buying coffee. 200mg each. Split them as needed.

------
decompiled_dev
It seems like a kid should be more important than being the best worker imo.
Seems like sensible priorities. I don't have a kid though.

~~~
giantg2
I just want to support my kid. It would also be nice to someday retire from
the job I hate.

------
jkoudys
I'm the CTO of a small company (about a dozen people), and I don't know that
my career has been hurt, but I've certainly had to reprioritize. Doing dev
work, where the occasional task can take 30m to 30h, and you have to be
focused for hours on end, is less practical when you have to rush out for
daycare pickup, have a toddler jumping on you, or try to work during nap time
which often ends earlier than you'd like. Consequently I find myself doing a
lot more business development, product planning and people management. I still
write some code, even if it's often more efficient to delegate. I like to keep
my skills up to date and to not become slowly ignorant of my own company (a
problem I've seen plenty of times before).

One way it's helped, is it's a really easy topic to bring up with clients or
on sales calls. It makes me more relatable, and gives a good first impression
since people assume I'm at least competent enough to provide basic care to a
child.

~~~
tasuki
> gives a good first impression since people assume I'm at least competent
> enough to provide basic care to a child.

This made me laugh. Impostor syndrome much?

------
yojo
Being a parent helps build a skill set that can help you level up your career
- if your employer values them. It can also make you less interested in that
advancement. My own anecdote:

I have two kids (3 and 1). I’ve experienced a bit of a leap in soft skills;
empathy, mentorship, and patience, to name a few. This has corresponded with
me taking on many more leadership responsibilities in my team, and being
recognized as a go-to thought partner and interestingly as an authority on
technical matters.

I took 6 months of parental leave for the second child (I know, incredibly
generous). I came back and received an “exceeds expectations rating”.

I have colleagues who are also parents. Several of them are “staff engineers”,
the highest level of recognition at our company.

On the other hand, I turned down a promotion as I felt I’m already giving all
I have time for/didn’t have bandwidth for the extra responsibilities. I’m
happy with my current compensation and responsibility set, especially as it
allows me to spend time with my family.

~~~
giantg2
Wow, they offer you promotions? My company makes you apply for all except the
entry level to mid level jump.

------
lurquer
But for kids, what is the point of a career?

Perhaps my POV is old-fashioned, but real honestly, the only reason I went to
school, obtained a professional degree, and made fat stacks of Benjamins was
to get a good wife (and then kids, etc.)

If that was not my plan, I would have lived in a shack on the beach and smoked
dope all day.

------
honkycat
who gives a fuck about making the man money. Enjoy your life, nobody who
matters gives a shit about your job title.

I think too many people are obsessed with making "all of the money", when just
"some of the money" leads to a better lifestyle.

That being said: People with kids get fired much more rarely, tend to get the
promotions, have much more understanding around missing work, and parents tend
to watch out for eachother.

------
auslegung
I'm still somewhat early in my career. I have 2 toddlers.

I don't know how others perceive me but I know I'm not able to give nearly as
much to work as I would without kids. When I last interviewed for jobs, I was
asked about my side projects. I made the joke, "I have kids, they are my side
project, haha," and I think he understood.

This is in the short-term though. I suspect that long-term my career will be
better than it would've been without kids b/c I think I will be overall
happier with kids than without, and I'll be forced to make better life choices
like go to bed on time, etc. To be clear I didn't have children so my career
would be better :D

------
jason_slack
I have a 1yr old and a 2yr old. I definitely struggle to find a balance some
days because the kids are super needy and I always want to go heads down at my
job. Perhaps if I worked out of the house I may be writing something different
now.

------
tengbretson
When you start the actual construction of a structure you may begin to fret
that the amount of time you are able to devote to erecting the scaffolding
around it is now in decline.

This is by design. The structure was always the goal.

------
Fire-Dragon-DoL
If a manager told you that parental leave means lower rating, that's a clear
signal the company doesn't value families.

With everything that is involved in growing a kid (teaching, empathy, learn to
talk in the most simple and direct way), I would be surprised if you are not
actually improving. All those interpersonal skills are growing, they might not
match directly to your job (e.g. Coding), but will make you a lot more
valuable. I am father of a 2 years old and my mentoring skills increased
dramatically since I got her.

~~~
fma
Actually of OP can get it in writing that parental leave = lower rating, and
parental leave was taken under FMLA...that's illegal.

[https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/77b-fmla-
protec...](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/77b-fmla-protections)

"An employer is prohibited from discriminating or retaliating against an
employee or prospective employee for having exercised or attempted to exercise
any FMLA right. "

I know of a manager at my company dumb enough to put it in an annual
review...needless to say, there's a lawsuit and said manager is no longer w/
the company.

~~~
giantg2
I got that information from a friend who wasn't even supposed to tell me. I
wouldn't jeopardize them. They didn't say it necessarily means a lower rating.
It's that they will compare you apples to apples with the output of your
colleagues who did not take leave. If you took 6 weeks of paid parental leave,
then your story point count will be about 15% lower than theirs.

------
lcall
The greatest joys, rewards, and challenges in life (growth opportunities) come
from family (including extended family where possible). (Plus that it simply
doesn't look like a good prospect to rely only on government strangers to take
care of us when we are old! We can be good to our nieces/nephews too, and
others of course.)

In my belief system, these important, challenging, and joyful relationships
can extend into eternity as well, if we choose to make the necessary
commitments (specific covenants with God) and keep them, learning and
improving throughout our lifetimes. Money is like nothing, in comparison.

[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-
family-...](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-family-a-
proclamation-to-the-world)

[https://www.comeuntochrist.org/beliefs/family](https://www.comeuntochrist.org/beliefs/family)

(more at my own web site, linked from my profile, or
[http://lukecall.net](http://lukecall.net) )

------
sumanthvepa
I would not obsess about your employer's rating too much. Look at the economic
perspective. I did this as an economic analysis some time ago for myself. (It
was not kids, but another commitment in my case.) Your employer is a just a
customer for your services. A lot of people forget that not only has the
employment relationship to be beneficial to your employer, it has to be
profitable to you as well. And profitability in your case, is not just the net
money you make from the job. It is also the hedonic value you derive from NOT
working, but instead spending that time with your kids. And the value of that
you will find is very large. Not only will you derive enjoyment from the hours
actually spent with them, you will be setting up the kids to have a happy
healthy and productive life in the future and a having a great relationship
with you. The economic value of helping raise a successful, well-adjusted
adult is very very large. Compare that with the economic value of a slightly
better rating. Even in economic terms, paying attention to your kids should be
a no brainer.

------
drunkpotato
It seems that half your question is about experience, and half is indirectly
asking for advice. So, experience:

My experience is the opposite. Since having kids, I have been ruthless about
changing jobs as needed, standing up for what I need, and getting a lot more
money on each career move. I was much more lax on these matters before, and
would spend countless hours on pointless drivel. I still spend hours on
drivel, but I count every hour! As others have noted, having kids makes you
question the value of your time and forces you to be much more efficient.

Advice: Value yourself more than your managers value you, present yourself
with confidence backed by experience and knowledge, and your career prospects
are wide open.

Also, I mean this in all seriousness, read "Getting to Yes: Negotiating
Agreement Without Giving In" by Roger Fisher and William Ury. Its advice
contributed the most money directly to my bank account of any book I have ever
read, followed by "The Richest Man in Babylon," another good book. (Getting to
Yes to increase my income, Babylon to decrease my spending and increase my
savings.)

~~~
giantg2
Thanks! I read that book and "Exactly What to Say". I found them both
interesting but the individual managers at my company have little power. The
rating and compensation is done at a meeting of all the managers in a the
department. So I can make my case to my manager, but I have no real
representation at that meeting.

------
werber
This is totally anecdotal, but I’ve seen coworkers have kids with a partner
who stayed home and their careers seemed to take off but people who coparent
and both work it seems to take some of the wind of their sails. I feel like me
not being a parent, especially during this pandemic, comes with the
expectation that i will work more, which i honestly have zero interest in
doing.

------
jlengrand
One thing I haven't seen in the comments just yet : YMMV largely depending on
which country (and company) you're in.

I used to live in France (and my brother still lives there) and long hours are
kind of expected. I now live in the Netherlands and we actually _almost_ got
in trouble with the daycare for bringing our kid there 5 times a week because
we were both working full time. Most people I know (agreed, as engineers we
are privileged) work 4 days a week and won't do over time.

If you ask me, that makes a lot of sense. I get done in 8 hours what I used to
do in 10. And next to that I have a life.

In any case, don't let anyone make you feel bad for having kids. They're much
better than any career you can dream and don't let 'management' take that away
from you.

------
ntnlabs
I was a long time soldier with many kids and it ended up my wife (sort of)
asking me to choose between work and family. My opinion: if Your work is
anything dependable, You have to neglect family to be good at work. If Your
job is anything regular, "family and career" can be done really nice.

------
thorin
Doing more stuff means you have less time for work. If you really like work
and want to spend all your time doing it why have kids, pets, relationships,
hobbies..?

In my case having children has made me more interested in my career. I need to
provide for them and set a good example to an extent. Previously my focus was
on whitewater kayaking, spending time with friends and travelling. I can't
really do those things now anyway so it makes sense to spend more time on my
career, but while the children are awake and I'm there I prioritize them.

You may want to think about the kind of companies you work for. If everyone
else in your company has kids and family responsibility their priorities will
be more aligned to yours. I found this out to my cost and would be unlikely to
work with a small focused start up in the near future.

------
jasonlotito
> Less hours means less dedication in the eyes of management.

In the eyes of bad management, yes. In the eyes of good management, quite the
opposite. If you are spending more time working then what's expected to get
your job done, my concern is what happens when you 1) leave or 2) burn out.
I'd rather have you spend your time doing what your job and then relaxing and
not burning out then burning out or leaving. Reliability is key here.

This is also a problem if they leave, because it sets a false perception of
what can be done in a normal work week.

Not to mention the actual quality of the work long term. Basically, everything
I've ever seen of excessive hours per week results in long term losses.

------
xrd
Yes. Without question.

It's worth it. It forces you to shift what you care about, and career path is
one of those things you have to think differently about. That's also worthy of
having kids.

To get where you want to go you often have to go where you don't want to go.

------
whazor
I would recommend using this period to create a good bond with your kid. While
taking parental leave and having absence have negative impact on your
management, you can switch jobs and all is forgotten.

------
laran
The short answer is no, they don't drag your career down. But they give you a
reason to re-prioritize how you invest your time in a way you've probably
never had to before.

It can take a couple of years as a new parent to adjust. Every person and
every family will have different needs and approach the transition in a
different way.

If the management at your company doesn't value your family then the question
is really whether or not you agree with them. Is your family worth it?

------
alpb
I work at Google and usually taking parental leave or even simple paid time-
off are not supposed to be penalized. Come performance review season, if
you've been absent for 4 out of 6 months in that review cycle, you are usually
prorated and evaluated for the 2 months you’ve been around as if that work has
sustained for the whole cycle. How much of this we can prove (that it doesn't
impact ratings or promotions)? Probably not a lot. You’ll find that no company
is willing to share that data to save their bacon.

~~~
giantg2
Wow, that's awesome if they follow it. I know my company doesn't.

------
amasad
Most people waste so much time on the internet that you can simply channel
this time into parenting, which is much more rewarding, and on net not lose
any real work or focus time.

~~~
giantg2
My kid is asleep :)

------
analog31
At the places where I worked, the people who pushed and shoved to get into the
higher paying jobs, or changed jobs for more money, without exception, all had
kids. So there's a tradeoff. You will have less spare time, but possibly more
economic motivation and career focus. But you might have to find a job where
you are not measured by hours in front of a screen. That might ultimately be a
good thing anyway.

I have been promoted regularly since becoming a parent.

------
johnny313
In my experience, you have to be more proactive in marketing yourself and your
work. I have worked from home for seven years, picking up my three kids every
day at 3pm.

It feels like you are always falling behind. But overall, I have found myself
doing okay relative to my peers, while cultivating a solid family schedule and
focus. Everyone is different, but the times I have lost out in office politics
are far outweighed by the other things in my life.

------
TheMog
If your productivity is measured by the hours you put in and not your output,
you have a bigger issue than the question if your kid drags down your internal
rating or not.

Doesn’t matter if your employer managed to get a bunch of your fellow
employees to vote for them in one “great place to irk” survey or other.

Find out what the job you want is, work to get the skills and start looking.

------
aklemm
There are many ways and reasons why having kids can slow your career, but the
flip side has been more important to me. Kids made me more focused (there’s no
putzing around when balancing kids and work) and caretaking allowed my
personal responsibility to more fully develop. The experience has made me a
better and more effective person.

------
ssss11
I think it depends on your priorities. I was heavily career focused, then had
kids and focus my time on family now. If i really wanted to i could pick them
up from daycare late, i could get baby sitters, i could do what’s required to
be more dedicated to work, but i wouldn’t get that time with the kids back
ever.

------
eucryphia
Children are your career, your job pays for it.

Spend quality time with them, don't wait until they don't need you anymore.

------
webreac
Thé weight of your family on your career dépends a lot of thé behaviour with
the second parent. If thère are fights (even silent), kids will also be more
difficult. Try to have a good split of the tasks and to be thankful and
respectful.

------
pacomerh
in my case being a parent has made me waste less time and prioritize with more
responsibility. Also remember having lots of time doesn't equal productivity
all the time (think about parkinsons law, work expands so as to fill the time
available for its completion"). You can have shorter periods of "available"
time throughout the day but if they're well used you can be very productive. I
have a couple of friends who have 3 and 4 kids and they're more productive
than I am. How does that happen?, I think the important trick is how you use
your time

------
gshdg
If you’re a woman, almost certainly. If you’re a man and don’t have a
homemaker as a spouse, probably. If you’re a man and have a homemaker as a
spouse, then only as much as you choose.

------
dvirsky
My career has soared since I've had kids. I don't think it's because of that
(and who knows, maybe it would have soared even more had I not had kids) but
it also didn't drag me down in any way.

------
kevintb
I wish responses would specify their gender and if they are in a heterosexual
or same sex relationship. It would be easier to frame where these answers are
coming from.

------
runjake

        Do kids drag your career down?
    

Yes. If you're a good parent.

A lower rating probably indicates you should find a better job that fits your
life realities better.

------
mrfusion
The worst thing for a career is not being able to relocate for a better job.
Families make this way harder.

------
imvetri
kids are important not money / career. If you need more money to support
family then live a simple life where you wouldn't do unwanted expenses. Food
cloth shelter, other than these everything else is unwanted for your life and
your family.

~~~
giantg2
Thank you. I try to live pretty simply, but housing is not cheap in our area.
We haven't taken a vacation since our honeymoon and have no plans to. Most of
my hobbies are low time and net positive for food or money. For example,
vegetable gardening, beekeeping, and growing shiitake.

------
tuckerpo
Eh, having children is kind of your literal biologic imperative. Pushing my
blood on for another generation, having some sort of legacy and living on in
people's memories postmortem are all things I value. Any random company that
would drop me like a sack of potatoes if they needed to for whatever reason
comes second to family for me, and I don't even have kids.

That being said, the engineers I know who have kids use it in one of two ways.
They either try to use it as leverage for a better WLB to spend more time with
their families (or, if they're not the world's best parent, to take a vacation
under the guise of caring deeply for their kid), OR they go full on cut-throat
sociopath career mode to enable the best life (financially) that they can for
their family. Then there's the wildcard option: company doesn't care at all
about your new priorities and nothing changes. That's when you brush up your
resume and try to find somewhere with a management team made of human beings
instead of lizard people (or the aforementioned career sociopaths).

------
fmakunbound
For those that had kids and said it was completely worth it, could you
elaborate?

~~~
ojame
I'm not sure what 'worth it' means, as to me there's no trade off that would
make it 'not worth it'. But to answer why do I enjoy having kids and why do I
enjoy being a parent (2yo and 4yo, third on the way):

\- I've never felt this much purpose before. It's hard to remember what drive
I had four years ago, or what motivated many aspects of my life. Now I live to
be a dad and I go to work to provide for my family.

\- I've learned heaps. Kids growing up is not a one-way street when it comes
to education, you learn too. You learn how to communicate, deal with
frustrations, be content and be patient. You learn how to do a lot more, too,
but those are the main ones that come to mind.

\- I understand what love is, to me. I love my wife - often I refer to it as
'love at first sight' over ten years ago, and nothing has changed. But the
love I have for my kids is different, it feels entirely unconditional and raw.
It's a feeling I never had before kids, and it sure is sweet.

\- My kids are so much fun. Yeah, it's hard work, but there's not a day that
goes by where I don't have lots of fun, and lots of smiles. I wake up next to
my kids every day and it's an absolute joy.

\- Getting context is easy. I look at my kids and i instantly know what life
is. I have a hard choice, and kids make it easier, because I've learned what
it is to be less selfish.

\- Getting more out of life. Life was fun and filling before I had kids, sure
- but now, daily, I get more out of my life. Often I'll give a mate a buzz at
7:30am on a Saturday morning and find out I've woken them up - not because I'm
rude, but because I'm already 1 - 1.5hrs into my day and I forget what 'early'
is. And then I get perspective, and think 'damn, I would have hated to sleep
those hours away and not of experienced banana pancakes with the kids'.

That's entirely subjective and not exhaustive, but yeah, it's rad.

------
senectus1
as a Man, no.

If I was a woman, yes, without a doubt. I've seen it in other women, I've seen
it in my own wife. Shit is just not fair.

------
freepor
Of course they do! You want to spend every minute you can with them and start
cutting whatever corners you can with everything else.

