
A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017) - gfmio
https://digest.bps.org.uk/2017/01/19/a-little-discussed-effect-of-therapy-it-changes-your-personality/
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lkadr
After years of depression, I'm sure my personality is one of the cause of me
still being depressed. And if I went to therapy, I'd expect and want it to
change. But change is scary, and I suppose that's why some depressed persons
don't want to seek help. There's sometimes comfort in suffering. Another
reason is that the not-desesperate me feels shallow and boring. But there's
probably a hopeful me that's not. I haven't found it yet, it requires more
effort.

~~~
calewis
As someone who suffers from depression and has gone to therapy for over 5
years (I am also on medication), please try and force yourself to go.

It will most likely change your life for the better, if not, what have you
wasted? A bit of money and a few hours of your time? It could make you better
at dealing with your depression and, as a consequence, make you feel happier.

You might need to try a few different therapists until you find one you like,
and it's not a quick fix either. Think of it like getting (physically) fit,
you need to keep at it - maybe for years. You might not also get better in a
linear curve, it's up and down, you just have to stick with it.

Therapy has helped me to know myself better, understand why I do what I do and
feel the way I do, and, as cheesy as it sounds; learn to accept my
limitations. It's changed my life and the life of many of my friends.

You deserve to be happy, everyone does.

Please try it - if it doesn't I will buy you a beer/coffee.

~~~
yboris
Thank you for sharing. Sincerely curious what you mean by "A bit of money".
I'm lucky that I didn't have to have therapy. My guess is unless your
insurance/job covers mental health, it's at least $50/hour (closer to $100 or
$150 if in a major city). Surely not much for the possible benefits (and on a
developer salary), but I'm wondering how expensive such services are.

~~~
klipt
> closer to $100 or $150 if in a major city

If therapy is just talking, surely there must be options for cheaply video
chatting a therapist in a state with lower cost of living?

~~~
calewis
In my experience, you need to be there face to face. I can't explain it, but
it's all the nuances and the uncomfortable silences. I was seeing my therapist
for a while via Skype, even though he lives a few miles up the road. I now
make the effort and see him face to face. It's so much better. But, like
anything, what works for you.

~~~
zwkrt
There's something about physical communication that can't be replicated. You
see the posture, the gears turning, immmediate reactions. You can't formulate
what to say, you say whatever is at the forefront of your thought.

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qzw
Maybe it’s little discussed because that’s the intended effect? A lot of
simple things can create positive changes in aspects of your personality, such
as meditation, a consistent exercise routine, enough sleep, etc.

~~~
themodelplumber
Exactly. And think about stressors, too, from a simple weekly to-do list or
new years resolution to the maintenance of a basic friendship. These are all
going to create additional anxiety and affect the unconscious drive toward
personal change.

I used to coach a client who emphasized a lack of neurosis and anxiety as if
it was a key selling point for her personality. But she also noted that she
was experiencing frequent interventions by family and work colleagues over her
behavior, and she complained of having no friends. Within days I found I had
to intervene myself! Her communications were truly difficult to experience. In
order to "do" social humanity, we need a certain amount of constant adjustment
(which causes some stress and anxiety), and it doesn't have to drive us crazy.
If it's not there, society quickly finds ways to push back or protect itself.

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yomly
What even is "personality" \- leaving aside technical and dictionary
definitions, if you --the person-- are the sum of your life experiences, can
you ever truly not be you?

I pose this because I encounter resistance from people to the notion that they
can change themselves, lest they lose some notion of their "self", and
personality is often equated with "self" from my experience.

~~~
AndrewDucker
"can you ever truly not be you"

It's a question of degree. There's a clear line from me yesterday to me today,
with a massive amount of similarity. I'm comfortable about my wants and needs
and how my life is set up, because the "me"s of the past set things up, and
I'm similar enough to them to fit into the niche they worked on.

That personality can change over time - I'm not who I was when I was 20, and
I'll be different again when I'm 60. But with a slow set of changes that's
easy enough to cope with - and indeed, people generally don't even notice the
changes.

But if I woke up tomorrow with a vastly different personality, the change
having happened all at once, it would affect all of my relationships, my
working situation, my home life, etc. It's wouldn't be a slow transformation
from one person to another, it would be the instant death of one personality
and their replacement by a different one. And that feels very uncomfortable to
people.

~~~
yomly
> it would be the instant death of one personality and their replacement by a
> different one. And that feels very uncomfortable to people.

That's a salient observation, but it's a definitely a curious aversion and
possibly linked to a similar underlying thought pattern that "growth mindset"
vs "fixed mindset" tries to capture:

Notions like "I can become more confident in everything I do" and "I can learn
to be better with people" terrified a friend as some kind of type of desire to
deceive others with some inauthentic persona that was disingenuous because you
had changed your personality

~~~
AndrewDucker
I guess it depends on how core you view certain parts of your personality as
being.

If "you" is "an introvert who isn't good with people", then "learning to be
good with people" must be some kind of faking it. Rather than a change in
view/approach which actually makes you like people and not be afraid of them.

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Nav_Panel
The idea of therapy and its effects on personality is actually something
discussed in psychoanalytic literature (noting that psychoanalysis !==
"therapy" in most cases), often framed as an ethical question, "when is it
permissible to perform psychoanalysis?" Some quotes from a book on Lacan:

> what exactly does ‘curing’ mean? Is it simply the disappearance of a
> symptom, or does one aim to change the underlying personality structure that
> produced it and in which it is inscribed? Is this at all achievable, and if
> it is, is it desirable? If it is neither achievable nor desirable, then
> where should curing stop – at what boundary line? And finally, is it always
> a good thing even to begin the process, when you don’t know where to end it
> or whether you will be leaving behind a damaged and less effective Subject?

> By the early 1960s, Lacan felt that forcing people to confront the truth
> about themselves, the meaning of their symptoms and the hitherto repressed
> elements in their unconscious, had consequences too serious to be undertaken
> with anything less than the greatest caution.

> I shall finish with an example of a patient who, at the end of her
> treatment, seemed quite aware of the loss she would suffer as a result of
> being cured. The young woman, who had been severely anorexic, talked about a
> dream during one of her last sessions. In it, she had on a necklace on which
> there was a great, pointed spike or barb. The curious thing was that this
> necklace was under her skin, within her body, and she wanted to remove it –
> to get it out of her. She somehow managed to tug it out, but as the spike
> came out of her body, it left a gaping hole, and she was bleeding. The
> analyst said in agreement with her unconscious knowledge: ‘Yes, you will be
> left with a hole. And you will be bleeding.’ The patient understood
> immediately and perfectly the meaning of both: that the giving up of her
> symptom would indeed leave a hole in the structure of her Subject, and she
> would face the new reality of menstrual bleeding. If this illustration
> leaves one with many questions, that is as Lacan would have wished.

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FailMore
I had eight years of therapy and it totally transformed my life, it was rather
odd but it was only when my therapist and I started using dreams in non-
traditional way (as set out here
[https://psyarxiv.com/k6trz](https://psyarxiv.com/k6trz)) that things started
to rapidly improve.

~~~
RickS
This was a really fascinating paper! The first part feels intuitively true –
that dreams are instructional surfacings of situational classes that require
attention. The bit about PTSD dreams being "mercy of environment" rather than
having situational autonomy was really interesting. It's a shame the paper
cuts off right there, but I'm glad they at least dropped the teaser, it's a
thread I'm going to pull. If you have any more recommended reading on this,
I'd love to check it out / talk about this. Email's in profile.

If you want to dig more into the "anxiety/avoidance mental responses are
fundamentally biological" aspect: I and others on HN recommend "The Body Keeps
The Score".

------
DoreenMichele
_The research also leaves unanswered a big question for the future: just how
is psychotherapy enacting these personality trait changes?_

A large part of "personality" is about social interaction. If you have always
been treated terribly, you won't know how to interact in a not terrible
fashion, even if you run into people who aren't going to treat you terribly.

Therapy can help you see that you have patterns of behavior shaped by negative
social experiences and those patterns of behavior basically presume that
everyone will behave in a particular way towards you and that way is not a
nice way to behave. It can help you see that how you behave helps keep the
negative social climate alive in your life and you have the power to behave
differently going forward.

It can help you sort out "Some people will do bad things to me and some won't.
It's okay to make judgement calls about how to interact with different social
situations for my own benefit." instead of going with some default learned
behavior that is no longer serving you well.

Metaphorically, it's a little like growing up in a very bad neighborhood where
everyone carries a gun. Carrying a gun and being quick to show it to let
people know you aren't going to be an easy victim is a matter of course. It's
the only way to survive.

Then you move to a nicer neighborhood where no one owns a gun. You continue
flashing your gun anytime you feel threatened by anything to let people know
you aren't an easy mark.

They react negatively to you signaling that you are prepared to defend
yourself with deadly force if necessary. In their world, only crazy people
routinely talk about being prepared to use deadly force. That's simply not how
things get settled in their world.

You go to a therapist and he tells you "So, have you noticed that you left the
neighborhood you grew up in and no one around you even carries a gun? Have you
thought about trying to find some means to enforce your personal boundaries
without pointing a gun at everyone you meet? Why don't you try that and see if
people react different to you."

So you go to a party and don't pull out your gun. And people are weirdly nice
to you, nicer than they have ever been.

And it's food for thought and you discuss the incident with your therapist the
next time you see them. Your entire social life improves and you start to
trust that maybe your therapist actually has good ideas and they aren't just
trying to convince you to lay down your arms just to make it easier to take
advantage of you, even though that's the standard you grew up with.

------
specialist
I've changed my personality a few times. Twice purposefully, that I know of.

First time, having exhausted all other ideas for improvement, I decided to
fake being happy, using ridiculously positive words for every situation. "How
are you today?" "Phenomenal!" While initially it was kinda sarcastic, at some
point it became sincere. Roughly three years later, I woke up one day said
"Phenomenal!" to myself, and was surprised that I meant it. The change was so
slow, subtle, I didn't sense the transition.

Years later, I found the book How You Talk Changes How You Think. So
apparently I'm not the only person with this experience. Also, I had read up
about social cognition (swarm intelligence), how we learn from each other. At
the time, there was some research showing that we individuals conform and
change our minds without realizing it or any memory of it. (Scary!)

Second time, I ran for public office. I usually play to win, regardless of the
odds. So I decided to become like the winners. I changed my outward
personality. How I stand, smile, eye contact, etc. I stopped swearing
(vulgarity). I learned to how to do small talk, vague noncommitmental positive
agreement. (eg "Wow, that's a great idea, tell me more.", per Guy Kawasaki per
Jean-Louis Gassée). I met thousands of people. And, frankly, in the aftermath,
the experience completely converted from an extrovert into an introvert.

I've also changed personalty a few times unwillingly.

I was proscribed high dosage prednisone & cyclosporine for years. They made me
insane. Suicidal. Mania. Super erratic. It took me years to "detox", become
psychologically normal.

I had a very rough childhood. I remember being loving and affectionate as a
toddler. But I became angry, distrustful and distant.

So. All these wild swings of personality. I honestly don't know who am I. When
I try to describe myself (dating profiles), I can only describe how I think I
behave, at this time. Is that accurate? Stable? No idea. I also don't know how
much aging and experience factor in.

And I don't know where the lines are between personality, character, and daily
behavior.

If I could travel back in time, I'd love to be able to administer myself
personality assessments over time, maybe chart the changes.

~~~
petra
>> I met thousands of people. And, frankly, in the aftermath, the experience
completely converted from an extrovert into an introvert.

That's interesting. Could you please share more ?

~~~
specialist
I'm still trying to understand it myself.

There's definitely the bits about socializing being taxing (introvert) or
energizing (extrovert). Maybe that's just aging and slowing down.

But a huge component is becoming very transactional, jealously guarding my
time and attention (both rapidly diminishing resources). Having become best
friends with 100s of people and then becoming yesterday's news after my
defeat, my calculus changed. What does this person want? Is this interaction
worth my time?

At the same time, I've become very nice and polite. I strive to reduce my
social footprint, never be the problem customer, be ever patient, be
unremarkable. And maybe provide some cheer, or positivity, or respite, to most
everyone I meet. But now it's anonymous. I almost never share my name. I hope
the person quickly forgets me.

(Note: In person. My online persona is still a troll, but I'm trying to
change.)

\--

The aspect I'm still chewing on is "social availability". Like openness vs
aloofness. It's a weird thing. I used to be the most approachable person.
Spontaneous conversations. People sharing the weirdest most intimate stuff
about themselves. Always being asked for directions by strangers. Having
children and dogs crawl all over me. It was unsolicited and unavoidable.

Now I can turn that off.

You may have experienced the difference while traveling vs commuting to work.
Visiting somewhere new, everything's stimulating, you're trying to take it all
it, you have certain openness, you recognize the openness in others, maybe
you're more flirtatious. But during your commute, routine settles in, you
develop tunnel vision, avoid eye contact, face goes slack / neutral / hard,
become avoidant so the panhandlers and other people striving to get your
attention just become part of the background noise.

\--

I'm also trying to be a better friend to my besties. Concentrated friendship
equity vs spread out.

Lastly, things change. Having cared for my grandparents and now parents,
watching how they've pulled themselves in, it's a sad thing to survive all
your contemporaries. Whoever said "it's better to have loved and lost then to
have never loved at all" was full of shit.

~~~
arandr0x
this is super interesting, I had similar experiences. Except I am still
happier having loved and lost.

Can I ask how old you are?

------
tokai
Personality is not that stable to begin with.[0]

[0]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5144810/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5144810/)

~~~
orthecreedence
Right, even before I start therapy, my personality changed all the time. I'd
say the only constant is how I experience things. Everything else seems to be
fluid.

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raverbashing
> is associated with significant and long-lasting changes in clients’
> personalities, especially reductions in the trait of Neuroticism and
> increases in Extraversion.

Yes. That's how it should be.

~~~
phkahler
Well since a common thing therapists do is (covert) social skills training,
increased extroversion makes perfect sense. The was recently another one
linked here that said long term therapy can increase neuroticism.

My biggest complaint is that most of their studies suffer from survivor bias.
They ignore people who drop out or have negative outcomes (there is overlap
there).

~~~
0xcde4c3db
My biggest complaint is studies being inadequately placebo-controlled. It's
not just that studies often have no control group or a blatantly different
control condition (waitlist, pill placebo), it's that there's no consensus on
how psychotherapy works. That means there's no agreed-upon approach for sham
psychotherapy, and even assertions that it's impossible to do because
virtually any therapy-like experience already contains most of the beneficial
elements (cf. [1]).

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_factors_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_factors_theory)

------
throwaway55554
Isn't this the point? If I suffered trauma as a child, my amygdala is over
developed and I am in constant fight, flight or freeze. Therapy would give me
tools to deal with this and thus, change my personality.

------
Pamar
I would like to link to a my old post here regarding this very topic (even if
the original comment was about something else):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13498424#13498462](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13498424#13498462)

~~~
specialist
That's worth a repost. Jodorowsky, suffering, identity. Just from your
summary, that sounds spot on. Added to my reading list. Thanks.

~~~
Pamar
Unfortunately I cannot confirm the original title: I am 1000km from my
library. But Jodorowsky often offers valuable insights.

------
ineedasername
Isn't this the expected result? Some aspect of your behavior or thought
process (key components of your personality) are in some way running counter
to your happiness and/or ability to function in some way. When therapy is
effective, that is a de facto change to personality.

------
llamataboot
This is true. In my experience you are literally learning how to grow "new
selves".

------
dannyism
If traits like "neuroticism", which would result from the very mental
illnesses that psychotherapy promises to address, constitute personality,
isn't it obvious that psychotherapy should change it? Why is anyone acting
surprised?

~~~
camelNotation
Neuroticism in the context of personality is not necessarily the same as
having a mental illness or being "neurotic." There is some crossover between
the behavior of someone we would describe as "neurotic" and someone with "high
neuroticism" on the big five, but as a matter of personality, high neuroticism
simply means that you worry more and tend to see things in a more negative,
realistic way.

This carries obvious advantages in certain contexts as long as it is tempered
and doesn't get out of hand. It has lots of disadvantages too, especially in
the job market, but all personality traits have a downside if you score too
highly. If you are too open, you can fail to weigh and measure risks properly.
If you are too agreeable, people will walk all over you. If you are too
extroverted, it can create dependency issues and alienation. If you are too
conscientious, you can end up so consumed by the minutiae of life that you
miss important, big picture ideas.

------
jl2718
Causal link not established. Placebo not tested.

Compare therapy against random assignment to six weeks of baking class. Then
get back to me.

~~~
michaelkeenan
The review includes 35 experimental studies with control groups. See table 3:
"Experimental Personality Change Effect Size Estimates Comparing Treatment to
Control".

------
aszantu
my depression went away after changing my diet. a ton of neurotransmitters are
made in the colon and intestines. Don't stop looking for things that might
improve the condition, you will know when you find something that works.

~~~
asdf21
What changes did you make?

~~~
aszantu
Went keto, depression went away within a week. Switch to carnivore for
financial reasons, anxiety went away.

------
Grustaf
I thought that was the purpose of therapy

------
WhitneyLand
Direct brain d]stimulation - Is there a tldr on therapies and electrically
stimulate the brain?

I know there were interesting clues, but is there a consensus on what it's
prospects look like as of 6/2019?

