
A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France - tbassetto
http://visa.lafrenchtech.com/
======
renaudg
Regarding French salaries again : yes they are lower than elsewhere but with
some exceptions, French employers are not the problem : they do pay the same
price for you as in other European countries, more or less ! The difference is
that your average engineer in France costs them around 1.5-2.5 times the total
take home pay, because of high, compulsory labor taxes.

In exchange, employees get as standard :

* a top notch, virtually free healthcare system with no concept of exclusions or "pre-conditions"

* Usually no student loans to repay because their higher education was free, unless they went for a private business/engineering school but that's still an order of magnitude cheaper than a US university.

* a comfortable (unsustainable ?) state pension later on.

* unemployment insurance that covers around 70% pay for months.

* 5 weeks holiday + public holidays

* Non San Francisco / London / NYC renting costs (although Paris is quite bad by French standards, and much worse than Berlin)

If you're US-based, think about your monthly budget and what goes towards
healthcare/co-pay, student loans, kids college fund, 401k, and building an
emergency fund in case you get laid off / severely ill. None of that is
strictly required in France (although some of it is available as extra private
coverage, and a good idea)

This is why cross-border salary comparisons are pointless, it's really apples
& oranges.

I'm French and living in London, and I'd personally rather have the freedom to
have a higher take-home pay and contribute towards the above items myself as I
see fit. But I'm not fooling myself thinking that because my take-home pay is
twice as high each month, the math is as simple as that. I know that I'm so
much more on my own here than at home...

~~~
morgante
I love how people trot out universal healthcare or pensions as a reason to
ignore that European salaries are so much lower.

With an American tech salary of $200k/yr, I can pay for all of that (health
insurance, student loans, etc.) and _still_ sock away $100k/yr in savings.
That $100k is more than enough to build up a massive nest egg which will
provide for me better than any pension or unemployment insurance would.

If you play your cards right, you can be financially independent after about a
decade of working in the US tech industry. Your entire working career could be
only 10 years. That would be insane to imagine in Europe, yet you think France
has better quality of live?

You mention having more vacation. I know plenty of people who switched to
contracting in the US so they could have more time to focus on startups and
hobbies. They only work maybe half the year, yet _still_ make more than
developers do in Europe.

European developers are underpaid. Full stop. You could dramatically improve
your financial circumstances by getting a job at a US tech company (though the
visa situation makes that challenging).

~~~
cgearhart
No one in America seems to understand how close they are to financial ruin
from surprisingly common stuff. My wife has lingering complications from the
birth of our last child. My statement of benefits from the insurance company
for 2016 shows that they paid $97,000 for her this year, and this was at least
the third year in a row at that level. Fortunately, I already had pretty good
insurance when this whole mess started for us, and we aren't really at risk of
losing it. But I can tell you that it is a significant factor any time I
consider changing jobs.

~~~
winter_blue
You could use the ACA and/or COBRA to ensure coverage while you're in between
jobs -- so what's the problem?

~~~
cgearhart
Until a few years ago the ACA was not an option, and the incoming government
has been pretty clear that they intend to eliminate the ACA as soon as
possible.

------
frwo
French salaries are much lower and taxes are extremely high for high income
earners. There's more than one tax on your income! There's the regular "impôt"
but also the "contribution solidarité" which is legally considered "not a tax"
but cost you a percentage of your income. And a "taxe d'habitation" too (which
is proportional to your rent rather than income). There's quite a bit of
misrepresentation and wordplay all over, so be careful if you are used to
different social norms.

France has been in a state of emergency ("état d'urgence") since november
2015, having been prolonged many times.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_emergency_in_France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_emergency_in_France)

Having said that, the longer vacations are indeed true but that's the case for
other European countries too.

I don't see how making one administrative task a bit easier (while all others
can be extremely difficult) is going attract talent, except through the usual
misrepresentation.

~~~
noplay
And in the US you have federal and state taxes.

For a family with child you will probably pay less taxes in France than in San
Francisco.

Bonus point: all your taxes are prefilled by governement you just need to
confirm on the website.

~~~
Hasknewbie
> Bonus point: all your taxes are prefilled by governement you just need to
> confirm on the website.

A very odd thing to say, since in most of (Northern, at least) Europe salaries
are paid tax-deducted. When I was in the UK my salary was my net income,
nothing to declare or confirm. And it's been like that since the 60s.

------
renaudg
Raw salary comparisons miss the point : you can't really compare pre-tax
salaries between countries with such a completely different taxation and
benefits structure.

The take home pay certainly is much, much lower in France than in the US, but
it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare, free university, pension
contributions, 5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance
amongst other things. It all adds up.

I'm French, working in London and I've been happy with the trade off of more
pay for a thinner social safety net, but I know it would be foolish to compare
wages directly. I suspect the difference is much less spectacular with
everything taken into account.

~~~
rubber_duck
>but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare

Does it cover stuff like cosmetic dermatology, full dental plan (implants) ? I
don't live in France, I lived in different EU countries and every time I
needed something the "free health care" meant I had to pay participation fee
and wait 6 months walking around appointments and ended up going private
clinic. I basically got 0 value out it, considering I'm young and healthy I
would not have to pay much for insurance, you're mostly footing the bill for
the pensioners.

>free university

Which again means nothing to anyone immigrating as a skilled worker

>pension contributions,

I sincerely doubt that by the time I hit retirement age the pension system
will look anything like it does now because of multiple factors (current
pension funds being structured around social transfers and constant employment
growth, meanwhile automation replacing a large % of workforce permanently).
Again just transfer payments to old people.

>5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things

So you're going to emigrate as an expert in a sector earning top ~10-1% income
for unemployment benefits ?

If you're a young professional either none of the things you listed matter to
you or there are better countries than in Europe by those criteria
(Nordics/Switzerland).

~~~
biztos
I don't live in France but I do feel qualified to comment on the general
comparison, being a US software guy in Europe.

First, things like health care and free university are a huge deal if you plan
to stay past your 30's. Consider being able to take a couple years to try a
business without freaking out about health insurance. Consider being able to
go get a PhD in some interesting subject without having to get a full
scholarship. Consider, obviously, having kids and sending them to world-class
universities without incurring any debt.

Then there's the job security aspect. It can be really nice to be employed in
a country where people aren't just laid off whenever a company misses its
quarterly numbers.

And finally, if you really are an actual Expert in a field where that's worth
a lot of money, it's probably worth about as much in France as it is
elsewhere. Sure all the "senior" programmers with 3 years' experience get paid
a lot less than in the US, but I don't think the VP level does badly at all.

(Maybe I'm being naive here... my point of reference being Germany.)

I hear it can be very hard to get a proper, "permanent" job in France, but I
also hear the quality of life is pretty amazing if you do.

~~~
vostok
> Sure all the "senior" programmers with 3 years' experience get paid a lot
> less than in the US, but I don't think the VP level does badly at all.

I think this is true from looking at my family. That's exactly what I don't
like about European culture: the really senior people still make a lot of
money. Americans are just better at sharing down the food chain.

------
jlangenauer
Apropos of this, I was in Paris recently at a startup event, and was
pleasantly shocked at the sheer number of startups and people I saw doing
things.

This is a good move by the French, and will help attract entrepreneurs away
from other countries (particularly like those just across the channel
currently inflicting generational economic damage on themselves.)

~~~
hacker_9
As someone from the UK, my main reason for not moving anywhere else in Europe
is the language barrier. I'm not even sure I'm capable of learning another
language; 5 years in school trying to learn French + German, and can still
only put together about two sentences. From what I remember, no one else
seemed to really pick up the languages either.

~~~
mootothemax
>As someone from the UK, my main reason for not moving anywhere else in Europe
is the language barrier. I'm not even sure I'm capable of learning another
language

I moved to Poland from the UK yonks ago, and have equally disastrous - if not
worse - language skills as you.

Not long after arriving, I accidentally got a job at a startup, and I'd been
led to believe everything was done in English internally: communications;
client emails; heck, even _variable names_ in the code, all was in English and
I had nothing to fear.

This turned out to be a _slight_ exaggeration; anything in English was the
rare exception, rather than the rule.

You know what, though? Even without lessons and _fully_ resenting Polish's
grammar, you learn _really_ quick. You also won't be facing this alone; as
long as you're actually capable of getting the job done, plenty of local
language speakers in your office will bend over backwards to encourage and
help you.

Don't let language be the only thing holding you back. If I had my time again,
I'd let things like bureaucracy and road safety guide my decision rather than
what noises come out of peoples' mouths.

~~~
krzyk
> even variable names in the code, all was in English

As a English-is-my-second-language person I can't imagine naming variables
using any other language but English.

English is most of the times more concise than my mother language (Polish),
and it is much easier to share code on the net, find help on stackoverflow,
etc.

~~~
mgbmtl
Say you're implementing a field-specific solution, do you use the US English
term or the term that's written on the users know? (specs, documentation, etc)

If another developer comes on board, will their English be fluent enough to
know those terms? There's also a huge risk in having a translation error.
We're programmers, not translators.

For general variable names, I agree. On the other hand, in my experience, when
the programmers aren't fluent enough in English, if English is imposed, they
tend to choose really bad variable names and not comment their code properly.
So I tend to impose clear names/doc over imposing a specific language.

~~~
krzyk
In Poland it is generally assumed that a programmer knows English, most of the
companies here are just branches of companies from other countries (not only
US/UK based) and to communicate we use English as a common ground.

Another factor to consider is that if we write in language that has some
constructs (e.g. C - if/then/else/while/return/int/double/class/void etc.)
then writing:

    
    
        if (znalezione) {
           ...
        }
    

looks awkward.

Also one has to consider popular libraries and functions/methods/classes in
them are English based, so this would add even more awkwardness to the code:

    
    
        zwierzęta.stream()
            .filter(z -> z.kończyny().contains(noga))
            .map(z -> z.toString())
            .collect(Collectors.toList());

~~~
mgbmtl
As I said, I'm not talking about the basics, but more especially for field-
specific terminology, comments, etc.

I agree with you, but the example you gave is more common than you think. We
tend to over-estimate people's language skills. (keep in mind, English is not
my native tongue, I'm including myself in there and it's not meant as an
attack, just something we need to deal with, and I would not outright exclude
bilingual code)

------
Raphmedia
As someone who lives in Montreal, that's very strange to see. We import French
talent by the hundreds because they are lacking interesting tech jobs over
there.

~~~
jeandejean
Don't get it wrong, we're not lacking interesting tech jobs at all, we're
lacking interesting salaries.

~~~
eloisant
Actually things have been changing in the recent years. We're seeing bigger
investment, so startups can afford bigger salaries. Also multinational
companies (like Google, Facebook) are opening engineering and R&D offices in
France, driving up the salaries.

Anyway, most of the tech jobs in France are in the IT service industry, but if
you want an attractive salary you need to go to join a software company with a
product.

So now you can get a pretty good salary in France as a software engineer, and
while it's still lower as a number than in North America if you factor in the
social system and the work/life balance it's not a bad deal at all. Just don't
go to the service industry.

~~~
jeandejean
By the way, Google and Facebook jobs numbers in France are just anecdotal…

~~~
Shebanator
anecdotal? Not sure you used the right word there...

FWIW, I work for google and have access to the numbers. Although I can't give
specifics, I will say that although Dublin, London, and Zurich are all larger
sites within Europe, the Paris office has a non-trivial number of engineers,
and some cool projects going on.

~~~
jeandejean
It has roughly 100+ engineers. That is indeed VERY anecdotal, how could you
claim something else? Even compared to Google worldwide (~25,000), but
compared to big companies that employ thousands of engineers in France,
Capgemini for instance: 22,000, Dassault Systèmes: 3,000…

------
danjoc
No. Sorry. Not interested... French crypto regulations are absurd.

[https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/03/03/235220/french-
bill-c...](https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/03/03/235220/french-bill-
carries-5-year-jail-sentence-for-company-refusals-to-decrypt-data-for-police)

~~~
mamadrood
The article is misleading. This legislation [1] only apply to terrorism acts.
And basically every modern country that was targeted has similar laws [2].

[1] [http://www.assemblee-
nationale.fr/14/amendements/3515/AN/90....](http://www.assemblee-
nationale.fr/14/amendements/3515/AN/90.asp)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law)

~~~
LeifCarrotson
That's a use case that was emphasized, but it doesn't appear that the
government's actually aware of that limitation:

> M. Pierre Lellouche ... told the National Assembly. “They deliberately use
> the argument of public freedoms to make money knowing full well that the
> encryption used to[sic] drug traffickers, to serious [criminals] and
> especially to terrorists. It is unacceptable that the state loses any
> control over encryption..."

And whether or not it is supposed to "only apply to terrorism acts", there's
no cryptographic algorithm that has a case for "secure unless the government
is investigating an act of terrorism".

The point is that French law requires applications to be designed in such a
way that key disclosure will allow customer data to be extracted. Signal,
WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, Apple iMessage, and other end-to-end apps would
be illegal.

------
bankim
What are salaries like for mid-senior level software engineers working in tech
companies in Paris? What are the tax rates i.e pay after taxes?

~~~
sylvinus
Others have replied on the salary ranges, but don't forget to factor in free
healthcare, excellent public schools, ...

~~~
coredog64
France doesn't offer "free healthcare". If you go to the doctor on an
outpatient basis, you pay for the visit up front* and will be reimbursed 80%
of the reasonable and customary charges __. If you need to go to the hospital,
then you 're not paying anything. Medicine is reimbursed at a lower rate with
it's own plusses and minuses: Many items that would be over the counter in the
US require a prescription (e.g. lactase enzyme). So it's a hassle to get it,
but you'll also get reimbursed for it if you need it.

The schools are good, but they are also going to be very hard on your kids
unless they are very young. Homework volume is high, and my own cynical view
is that at least part of it is training kids for the experience of dealing
with the difficulties of filling out lots of paperwork and dealing with the
French civil service.

Source: Worked for two years in a French overseas territory.

 _The indigent and extremely poor have special programs whereby they are
exempted from this._ *You can buy additional insurance that will increase the
coverage to 100% and/or remove the need to pre-pay. That comes with the
tradeoff of having to use the provider network that the insurance company has
(a la US healthcare).

~~~
emmanuel_1234
An important point you seem to be missing, is that stuff that are not free but
deemed a necessity (e.g.: family doctor consultation, drugs...) are capped.
What they are allowed to charge at most is decided by law (in exchange, they
get to control how many people gets to go to (~free) Medical School every year
-- it's far from ideal, but not a terrible balance).

------
trvlngsalesmn
> Family: “Talent Passport – Family” residence permit granted to spouse of the
> main applicant, guaranteeing identical family treatment and automatic labor
> market access (as an employee, business founder, etc.).

I opened the link to see how it would treat families. Much to my surprise, it
gives spouses access to the labor market, too.

------
intralizee
I would love to go to France.

I'm in US right now, 1 semester left for degree and have interned at a
respectable company. I wonder if they're looking for experienced engineers
over fresh ones.

I've read so much that work life and culture is so much better in France, so
heres hoping...

~~~
chrisper
You know, a lot of CS people in the US seem to really love the US and say
stuff like "it sucks not to be in the US." They usually mention how they can
afford everything since they make so much money and how they prefer to work
600 hours a week instead of having forced days off and that health care
through Employer is so much better than through government.

Admittedly, this was on Reddit, which is just a huge echo chamber, which led
me to stop using it.

However, I wonder how your point of view on this subject is?

~~~
intralizee
I believe a lot of tech people are the type that prefer a computer as
everything around them is madness in disguise.

A lot of people I know over time build mental walls that resemble what the US
culture respects and pushes on everyone. Work is #1 and money is everything. I
see people that never use their vacation days and feel bad when they do!

I believe if there was more focus on philosophy teachings in the US, things
would be different and maybe more healthy individuals would exist. I think
it's easier in the US to fall into a unhealthy pattern of life and not realize
it. Some people are dumb founded by the notion or just don't think about it as
they don't see alternative options available. I've had luck of working with
many older engineers that advise if they had done things differently in
life...

~~~
chrisper
>don't see alternative options available

Yes. This is how I feel when reading those comments as well. I am from Europe,
but living in the US at the moment, but will be moving back soon again.
Obviously, people who never experienced an alternative cannot really see how
what they have now might be bad.

Having been in both Europe and the US I can easily compare both lifestyles and
conclude that Europe is more suited for me, even if it means that I will not
own a 5 bedroom house with 6 TVs.

------
finid
So I tried to subscribe again and finally got a response, which reads:

` Bonjour,

Nous vous confirmons que nous venons de recevoir votre email depuis
[http://visa.lafrenchtech.com](http://visa.lafrenchtech.com)

Merci. A très vite.

Bonne journée

Envoyé depuis [http://visa.lafrenchtech.com](http://visa.lafrenchtech.com) `

No big deal, I have a pretty good idea what that means, even though I don't
speak French, but if they're trying to market to an English-speaking audience,
me thinks they should at least have a version of that message in English.

~~~
true_religion
Why do you think they're trying to market to an English speaking audience, as
opposed to a French speaking audience?

French is the national language, and you'll be required to speak it in order
to have a normal life.

~~~
Chris2048
In France, not necessarily Paris, or most large French cities.

> French is the national language

And what is the national language of Ireland?

~~~
umanwizard
In 2017 the national language of Ireland is, __in practice __, English,
whatever their Constitution may say.

In France it's absolutely still French. Many, many people do not speak English
well enough to have a conversation.

How is this analogy with Ireland even remotely relevant?

~~~
Chris2048
> How is this analogy with Ireland even remotely relevant?

the point is, what is 'official', and what is 'in practice' can differ.
Quoting the official language of Ireland says nothing about what actually goes
on.

Similarly, The the official language of France says nothing of how easy it is
to speak English there, especially in large tech-hubs (the context of this
conversation), nor _how this might change in the future_.

------
randomname2
The UK has a similar visa for senior engineers:
[http://www.techcityuk.com/tech-nation-visa/](http://www.techcityuk.com/tech-
nation-visa/)

"This specific visa can be used for talent coming from anywhere in the world.
As an example, we are aware of a recent senior hire from the US that got his
visa returned to him in his passport exactly 28 days from submission. This
specific visa puts an individual on track to Indefinite Leave to Remain and
Citizenship with no need to stick with a particular employer."

~~~
udkl
The visa has a low annual quota of just 200.

~~~
randomname2
For now 76% of applications have been endorsed though. Example writeup of
someone's experience applying for this:
[https://ksred.me/post/tier-1-exceptional-talent-tech-city-
uk...](https://ksred.me/post/tier-1-exceptional-talent-tech-city-uk/)

------
coredog64
For anyone that is really interested in this, I would first recommend reading
Stephen Clarke's "A Year in the Merde". It's a humorous look at what it's like
to live and work in France. Despite being over the top, there is still a large
element of truth to the stories.

------
bqlou
Trying to add my piece of advice here with some interesting readings... I'm
French, not a parisian (yes, we _do_ exist), working in south of France. So
for my (strictly) personal point of view, I hope to never work in Paris as
this is a "too intense" city (this is just my way of life). _But_ , creating a
startup there is almost mandatory : lot of VC living there, important
infrastructures ( [https://stationf.co/](https://stationf.co/) for example,
and many others).

As many people said it, administration is hell (but it's getting better over
years, thanks you www). So to avoid your hr, legal, financial stuff, __take an
accountant __so you can do your job... Maybe it 's 200€/m, but 200/m is like
what ? a 2 days budget/month ? trust me, you don't want to waste your time on
this.

On the tax part, yes, there are a lot, and it's a better move for a french
student to move to the US than an american student to move to France. Why? We
don't have a 100k student credit to pay for (Very good public schools, and
when I say public, it's between 500€ and 2500€ / yr). But more and more,
administrations and institutions help startup founders financially. Maybe you
should look for someone to take care of public grants (even if they take a
commission on it) so you don't have to take care of this? Health insurance
included, etc. It's a lot in the end but... meh, we always need a reason to
whine you know.

On the language part, yep. We are terrible. But in all the industries around
my work, english is mandatory. In my comp, requirements are in english,
project management tools are in english, etc. It's simple, it's mandatory to
work in english in our techy fields, so we can't avoid that. But yes, going to
the bakery and speaking in english might be hard first. But once you know how
to pronounce "Croissant", you'll be okay.

Oh, and we have good food (but haven't found a good beer (yet) :).

Sincirely hope you will be more than pleased if you plan to come to France
though...

------
manuelbieh
If you take a look at the french economy, their political system, their tax
rates and social security system you don't actually want to work and/or live
there as a startup founder, so no need for a visa. Nice try, France.

// edit: ah, not to forget about their unwillingness to treat you as human
being when not speaking their language.

~~~
cygnus
I'm French and I agree with this. I left a long time ago.

Add:

\- the absurd administration burden to do anything

\- the absurd prices of anything in Paris

\- the lack of consideration for anything that is not in Paris

\- the denial of your rights because there might be some terrorists

No way, no reviens Leon.

~~~
true_religion
What if I don't want to live in Paris? After all, there are other cities, yes?

~~~
umanwizard
Paris's relationship to France is something like NYC's to New York State.

Sure, Buffalo exists, but would you start a startup there?

------
mavdi
Great move. This is how US started a golden age. Encouraging outlooking and
talented migrants with ZERO public money spent on getting them to that level.
Free talent. And btw, outlooking and talented migrants are exactly the kind
that will want to blend in and cause no problems.

~~~
jjawssd
The first step of a golden age is reduction of red tape.

~~~
467568985476
Exactly - just look at how well the Kansas economy performed after removing
much of their regulation.

------
adamnemecek
Isn't it like super hard to setup a startup in France? That being said, the
talent coming out of all the grandes ecoles seems definitely underutilized.

~~~
thibaut_barrere
As an interim CTO who helped a number of clients find good hires, I can say
I'm definitely under the impression that a large part of grandes ecoles
talents is siphoned every year by FB, Google, MS and the likes (which makes it
harder for new startups to hire).

~~~
0xfaded
I work at a startup and my cash comp is inline with cash at Google et all. The
expected value of equity (read: last valuation prices) is also in line but
obviously illiquid.

I got ripped off at the first two startups I worked for but learned my
lessons.

Don't be busy, create obvious value along the actual company line.

You're most likely not working for the founders, it's really the stakeholders
and at least some of these have money. Make sure the money is found for your
salary (believe me they find the money for the lawyers).

Be prepared to move if necessary.

It's an uneasy compromise at first, but eventually it becomes clear the best
interest is not having the best employees constantly flirting with a healthy
stream of recruiters.

~~~
umanwizard
Do you work in France?

------
esfandia
The "4-year renewable" visa would make me hesitate, unless you don't mind
going back to where you came from in case your business didn't work out or you
got laid off. The feeling that you're in a temporary situation can't be very
nice, and will prevent you from fully committing and settling down properly.

Why not offer a Green Card or some other kind of Permanent Residency?

------
MicroBerto
Does the 33% corporate tax rate and ~30% personal income tax rate (at a €30k
salary) apply to them?

~~~
kybernetyk
For the startups: Don't think so. Corporations need to generate profits to pay
taxes. ;)

The personal income taxes apply though.

The other huge problem with France (and Europe in general) is the problem that
you can't fire bad/unneeded employees easily.

Continental Europe is a bad environment for young companies that need to be
agile. Too much red tape and regulation. And when you survive all that, the
state is going to take most of your profits as taxes and compulsory social
contributions (and compulsory non-social contributions _cough_ German IHK
_cough_ ).

EU countries can come up with as many visa and incubator schemes as they like.
But they won't attract many entrepreneurs. Because if I'm an entrepreneur in
the position to start a business in another country then I'm going to choose
the best one: The USA.

(I'm an European just btw.)

~~~
jjawssd
> For the startups: Don't think so. Corporations need to generate profits to
> pay taxes. ;)

You are contradicting your own point. A startup with zero profit can still be
taxed at a very high rate and pay almost zero taxes simply because there is no
profit to be taxed. But the rule would still apply in this case.

------
netman21
Surprised that the comments here are from the perspective of an employee
considering moving to France when the purpose of the visa is to attract
_founders_. Try founding a tech company when you are paying all those
employment taxes for everyone you hire. And then they are only allowed to work
35 hours a week. I helped a startup during the dot com boom in Paris. They
said the "employment police" would stake out their building to ensure nobody
worked too long. And good luck holding on to anything if you sell. Sorry
France. Nice try.

~~~
renaudg
>> And then they are only allowed to work 35 hours a week. They said the
"employment police" would stake out their building to ensure nobody worked too
long.

This is a myth. 35 hours a week is a reference figure (likely to go the way of
the dodo with the next president btw) after which overtime regulations are
triggered _for some types of employees_ (mostly blue collar). White collar
hours aren't regulated at all in the same way, they're just supposed to get
some extra days off ("RTT") since that law came in force.

It's true the "employment police" in France can indeed be full of nasty anti-
business commies (a famous hard left politician in France spent his whole
career there), but it's a total urban legend they'd be staking out a building
looking for overtimers.

------
bogomipz
Does anyone know how big of an impediment is not knowing French?

EDIT: I should have articulated my question better by saying "in the short
term." I agree its foolish to not learn the local language if you plan on
staying. But if the office language is French that is going to be almost a
non-starter for someone who doesn't already speak it.

It can be intimidating enough changing jobs in your native language. I know
Sweden and Berlin use English as the lingua-franca of the office. I just don't
know about the French tech scene.

~~~
camus2
French here. You have to learn french, people in the french administration
aren't going to communicate with in you English.

Obviously in Paris more and more people know English since it's a touristic
area. But it isn't like Berlin,Amsterdam or Brussels where you can live with
very little local language knowledge. Correct french is a pain in the ass to
learn, the language is needlessly complicated.

Frankly If I were a "foreigner" (outside the EU) who wants to move to a non
English speaking European country, I'd go to Germany, Netherlands, Belgium,
Spain, Switzerland, Sweden or Austria. I lived and worked in all these
countries without problem and with little knowledge of the local language.

Just don't come here with 0 french and expect to find work, that's not
realistic. If you are an "expat" (i.e. you already have a guaranteed job in
France), then by all means...

~~~
Gmo
I'm sorry, but ... typical French reaction (I'm French myself)

The government and the administration is trying to improve the climate on
founders/visa/startups/tech, and yes, it's far from being perfect and there
are a lot of pieces missing and a lot that could be improved, but, at least,
they seem to be trying.

And then you come, and just tell people they should go somewhere else "because
it will be too hard".

So, I'm all for warning that it won't be all pink and easy, but I don't think
it ought to be as hard as you seem to imply.

One thing which is definitely true is learning a few words and know how to say
"Hi" in French and that you don't know the language will go a long way.

After, that, if you feel like you want to stay in the country, you will
naturally go towards learning the language anyway.

I lived 7 years in the Netherlands, and you can go mostly fine with just
English (even though, in some more rural areas, it can still be hard despite
the reputation of the country), but learning Dutch helped me integrate and
"unlock" situations where English would not have been enough, just because it
showed to the people involved I was willing to integrate better in the country
and make efforts to be understood.

~~~
EnglishInFrance
I think the problem is that there is a complete disconnect between those in
government that are "trying" as you say, and those who execute the day to day
bureaucracy.

Let's take an example directly from this announcement: "Apply to the French
Tech Visa for Investors: Contact your local French Consulate or the local
"Prefecture" (if you already reside in France) and follow the general route to
apply for a "Passeport Talent"

Only those who live here will understand what this entails. The prefecture is
a branch of regional government that is totally gridlocked with unnecessary
paperwork.

~~~
Gmo
2 things :

\- they tell you explicitly you can contact the consulate, that's when you're
not in France

\- If you're already in France, there is a big chance you've already been in
contact with the prefecture, so you'll know what it is. Besides, it's very
googleable.

Finally, yes, the prefecture is definitely not the best place to hang out, but
I'd be surprised if they did not get very precise and direct instructions on
how to take care of those candidates.

------
prodmerc
Wait a minute... if this is a Schengen visa, what's stopping people from just
getting it and then going to Germany to work on a startup?

Not that it's a bad thing (well, it is for France I guess)...

~~~
germanier
It doesn't allow people to work anywhere else than in France. The "Schengen"
part of it (which basically any national residence permit contains) just
allows holders to freely travel to the rest of Schengen for up to 90 days in
each 180 day period but not perform any paid work in other countries
(something which citizens of some countries – including the US – already enjoy
without any visa).

------
EliRivers
"guaranteeing identical family treatment and automatic labor market access"

There's a winning move. You can bring your spouse and your spouse can work.
That's a dealmaker, right there.

~~~
noplay
And after the trial period you can't easily be fire (usually in startup you
just negotiate sometimes to move and found a new job). And if the company die
your missing salary will be paid by the state.

Important when you move your family.

------
VeejayRampay
Great move by the French government. There are many things that could be
improved vis à vis entrepreneurship in France, but at least we're giving it a
real shot. Good going!

------
upen
Is French language proficiency mandatory for this program?

~~~
bsaul
i highly doubt it, especially if you speak english.

~~~
chrisper
Don't a lot of people in France look at you badly if you only speak English? I
read that this is especially true in more "proud French areas" like Paris etc.

~~~
omginternets
Short answer: no.

This may have been true at one point in time, but it's certainly no longer the
case. I think this myth comes from a mix of two things:

a) differences in intonation that some people (mostly Americans) interpret as
aggressive or hostile, when really they're not

b) the possibility that this was true in the past (e.g. during the 50's,
perhaps because the French were eager to see stationed GIs leave)

~~~
jeromenerf
> b) the possibility that this was true in the past (e.g. during the 50's,
> perhaps because the French were eager to see stationed GIs leave)

Or amybe, you know, because of the historical rivalry between France and
England :)

~~~
omginternets
Very true. Silly of me to overlook this obvious point! :)

------
arjie
What's the general deal with startup visas? Your startup fails, you have to
quit the country? Seems like it raises the stakes for very little reason
unless the country is otherwise startup-favourable.

~~~
emilyfm
I agree, temporary status increases the stress level.

The Canada Start-up Visa [1] gives immediate permanent residence, so you can
stay even if the business eventually fails.

[1] [http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-
up/](http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/)

------
paulprins
I'm a tech founder who is in Paris through a very similar program with Paris &
Co, French Tech. If you have questions I'll loop back around to answer them
based on my experience.

Note: I didn't come with the French Tech Ticket (which was a different program
that was more structured). I have an existing software company which I am
expanding to France & Europe.

~~~
blusterXY
Applied to the program with my last company. There was no response and no
interview other than a rejection email. The business is now running millions
in orders and several hundred thousands a year in revenue.

I had wanted to go and thought the company was a shoo-in since it was 100%
bootstrapped and profitable at the time of application. Also growing like a
weed. So I have no idea what they are doing, but they don't seem terribly
competent and it was a waste of time to apply.

~~~
paulprins
Props on growing your business. Mine is also bootstrapped and doing well.
Sorry that was your experience. They so seem to have particular types of
businesses they are more interested in (though I don't know what that criteria
is).

------
spyspy
Does anyone know if there similar opportunities for other European countries?

~~~
kogepathic
Germany offers a special visa for people who want to be self-employed. [0]

Additionally, if you have a Bachelor/Master degree in STEM, you can easily get
a Blue Card if you receive a contract paying over 50,800 EUR/year. [1] Lower
salaries would still enable you to obtain a regular work visa (which is
specific to the job title and company).

I've heard Germany is a difficult country to establish a company (GmbH). I
can't speak as an entrepreneur, but as an employee it isn't difficult at all
to get a work visa from the government. I'd say the only difficulty is that
you need to have every document prepared, with a spare copy, and make sure
you've provided all the necessary information. German bureaucrats are
especially irritable when things are missing/incomplete.

Germany is desperate for skilled workers. You don't even need to speak German
to get a job in a big city like Berlin or Frankfurt.

As someone from North America, I'd highly recommend you consider Germany if
you'd like to work for a start-up. Berlin is the start-up capital of Europe,
and there are so many companies looking for talent you can quickly climb the
corporate ladder/salary by moving companies every 12-18 months. You won't be
paid as much as in Silicon Valley, but rents are sane and I'd say the quality
of life is higher than in the US.

[0] [http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/for-qualified-
professio...](http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/for-qualified-
professionals/working/setting-up-a-business-in-germany/visa-for-self-
employment#general-information-on-the-visa-process-for-citizens-of-other-
states)

[1]
[http://www.bamf.de/EN/Infothek/FragenAntworten/BlaueKarteEU/...](http://www.bamf.de/EN/Infothek/FragenAntworten/BlaueKarteEU/blaue-
karte-eu-node.html)

~~~
pyvpx
I moved to Berlin almost three years ago, and extended/expanded my company
here. I am not a start-up, though I am developing a product, but more of a
one-man consulting shop.

Getting a self-employed VISA is not easy unless you have some serious
credentials. My partner has three degrees, two post-graduate, from highly
regarded US universities; an extensive profile of speaking engagements; a
very, very solid financial standing; and a solid business plan. The IHK (who
reviews all business plans for self-employed applications) _still_ said "No"
but begrudgingly gave the green-light when presented with a book contract from
a well known technical publisher.

I have no degrees, but a financially viable consulting business of some years,
and a lengthy professional background. Three years later, over 12 foreigners
office appointments, a UG (affectionately known as the mini-GmbH) with over
12K founding capital, a high-priced lawyer, over a 120K in USDEUR transfers,
and a visit from the police to confiscate my passport over Christmas, my self-
employment visa is no further along than the day I first submitted it.

Still, incomparably better than US immigrations. I'm certainly stuck in some
weird, exceptional state that has confused even my lawyer.

Consider Berlin. It is wonderful here, definitely. Rents are rising, however,
and (sadly, in my opinion) you do not need to learn German. I know of far too
many people who have spent numerous years here without speaking more than a
phrase or two of deutsche.

If you want to start a company/be self-employed DO NOT follow the (typische
amerikanische) DIY process. Factor in costs for tax advisers and lawyers.

~~~
CalRobert
A couple options:

If you want to self-employ and like the Netherlands:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT)

If you recently graduated or are still in school: Irish working holiday

I'm sure there are others, but those are what come to mind if you're an
American who wants to live/work and Europe and you don't have a sponsor and
aren't funded (if you have capital, you have far more options, of course).

~~~
CalRobert
Also, note that if you _do_ get a Blue Card it lets you work in most of the EU

"..The Blue Card is an approved EU-wide work permit (Council Directive
2009/50/EC)[1] allowing high-skilled non-EU citizens to work and live in any
country within the European Union, excluding Denmark, Ireland and the United
Kingdom.."

Though that is subject to change depending on the political climate.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Card_(European_Union)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Card_\(European_Union\))

------
jpatte
Something important to keep in mind for founders and investors I haven't seen
mentioned yet: in France, capital gains are taxed at 33%. And there is an
additional tax for wealthy people (ISF, impôt sur la fortune) to pay each
year.

If you want to be a millionaire in France, get ready to pay hundreds of
thousands of euros in taxes.

------
emmanuel_1234
Regardless of what you take home at the end, do not move to France for the
salary/wealth. Move to France for the way of life and the overall social and
personal security. Some people prefers not being in a perpetual rat race and
having more time to enjoy life, by being with your family everyday (not just
on week-ends!), doing sport with friends or knowing that you won't go
bankrupt/uninsured because of some stupid accident like growing old.

If you're really into the rat race, awesome, keep doing it, but yeah, you
probably should not move to France.

I'm personally expatriated because my current mood is settled for the rat
race. As I'm growing older, I have the feeling I'll regret it if I don't slow
down and I'm very much considering moving back to Europe/France.

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
Good to see things like this. Even though I would not participate in this
particular scheme because I cannot speak French and have no interest in living
in France it's still great to see this sort of thing happening if only for
freedom of movement for hard working talented people.

~~~
renaudg
There's a healthy number of startups in Paris where English is the working
language. It's true that day to day life may be more challenging without
speaking any French, but probably less so in Paris than elsewhere

~~~
EnglishInFrance
I disagree. I've heard this from people here, however after living here for
some time, I believe the reality is that if you don't speak fluent French, you
will be at a severe disadvantage.

~~~
yaantc
I guess it really depends on the company culture, and one shouldn't over-
generalize. I have non-French colleagues who don't speak French (and made
barely any progress from their French lessons, but hey it's clearly not their
priority ;) and are just fine. But where I work everyone naturally switch to
English as soon as there's a non-French speaker in the room.

So my advice to new comers would be to pay attention to this when you visit
for interviews. Do you feel reluctance, are people hesitant and searching for
words when speaking English? Could be a sign they're not used to it. If they
speak casually OTOH (even with strong accent and the odd mistakes) it's likely
they're used to it: good.

------
biztos
If you want to move to Europe and work for a "leading startup" or a big tech
company -- anything established that pays market rates for senior talent --
then you should also ask your favorite immigration lawyer about Germany's
Permanent Residency for Highly Talented professionals, aka "Paragraph 19."

This gets you _permanent_ residence, the same thing as a US Green Card. The
minimum qualifications IIRC are an advanced degree in something
tech/science-y, and a "high" salary in the legitimate job waiting for you
anywhere in Germany (meaning you have to get the job first). For scientists
the salary limit is lower than for engineers.

But of course the food is much better in France.

------
robocat
I had heard that all the top companies in France were old companies - a club
that effectively bans unicorns.

I know that France has some incredible engineering talent (egg France is the
main world producer for many chemicals).

------
archagon
Any avenues for self-employed/single-person-company folks? I know Netherlands
has DAFT but I'm interested if this opens any similar options in France.

I have dreams of living and coding by the Mediterranean Sea. :)

~~~
omginternets
>I have dreams of living and coding by the Mediterranean Sea. :)

Not to rain on your parade, but France is still highly centralized around
Paris. You'll have _extreme_ difficulty finding clients and building
relationships if you're not working (by which I mean: spending most of your
time) in Paris.

~~~
archagon
I'm not freelancing or contracting at the moment, and besides, Paris is one of
my favorite cities.

------
finid
I think Holland has a similar program.

------
mangecoeur
I have really high hopes that starups/high tech companies will also flourish
outside of Paris. France has some really great medium sized cities - compact,
livable, full of character and with much lower costs. I'm hoping that some of
them will develop the core of a startup scene that will draw in more people
and generally make them exciting. Toulouse already has this to an extent with
Airbus being there, generally very active in aerospace and robotics.

------
geff82
Paris is great, grew up there. You just have to be comfortable with the fact
that more than half of your money get taken by the government for taxes and
social security.

~~~
CretinDesAlpes
I think it's more like 40%. But at least we have free schools, free
universities (ok, sometimes 500EUR/year) and a decent public health service.

I also grew up and lived in France for 20+ years and have lived in UK for 5+
years. It's true that I earn more in UK than in France but for example to
compare public health systems, although both are free, NHS is really the worse
and it does not seem it's going to get any better in the future.

~~~
adventured
What have those non-free, taxation based, universities produced?

25 years of economic stagnation, low innovation, increasing marginalization of
France as a consequential economy in the global order (they've been sinking
down the list for 40 years), perpetual high unemployment, and a GDP per capita
that has failed to keep up to such a dramatic degree that it needs to climb
70% to catch the US.

With results like those, the tax payers are clearly not getting a good return
on their non-free education system.

~~~
dmode
Other than GDP (which frankly benefits 5% of US population), everything is
better in France. Better roads, better public transportation, high speed
rails, healthcare, education. Even small and remote villages in France have
high quality roads, rail connections etc. and doesn't look run down and
entrenched in poverty.

~~~
adventured
GDP only benefits 5% of the population? Oh really. That doesn't sound right at
all given the fact that the US median disposable income is far higher than
France.

Not to mention the median wage growth is four to five times faster in the US
than in France. So much for your theory.

Demographically France is about 80% white. The US median white household has
an income of $73,000 as of 2016 ($108,000 with a college education) and a
median net worth of nearly $150,000. Both higher than France. I use the direct
demographic comparison, because it would be absurd to compare an 8th
generation French family to a first or second generation Latin American family
in the US (the US is 63% white by comparison, with far more immigration on a
percentage basis in the last 40 years than France has seen).

The US has a superior university education system. It's not even remotely
close. That has been the case globally since WW2. The rest of the world has
been trying to catch up and copy what the US accomplished with its
universities, for decades. The top 50 US universities put France to shame.

The US has a far lower unemployment rate. The US is a high innovation economy,
France is a low innovation economy, which you can witness across nearly every
economic area in comparing the US to France. The US is superior to France in:
manufacturing, agriculture, aerospace, software, Internet broadly, mobile,
medtech, biotech & pharma, and energy. The US has a far more dynamic small
business economy than France does, with a much more liberal entrepreneur
culture. The US has less air pollution than France; NYC has dramatically
cleaner air than Paris.

Per the OECD better life index, the bottom 10% in the US are far better off
than the bottom 10% in France. The US poverty line is also much higher than it
is in France.

Better infrastructure in France? Eurozone spending on infrastructure per
dollar of GDP, is now below that of the US, and that's really saying something
because the US level is far too low. How long do you suppose France can
continue to maintain what it does have, with such persistently low wage
growth, such persistently low GDP growth, such high taxes and high regulation?

~~~
baursak
> US median disposable income is far higher than France

Did you subtract health insurance premiums, co-pays, and deductibles?
Nowadays, for a family of 3 that could run around $500 out-of-pocket per month
for employee premiums alone. And that's before adding employer-paid premiums,
which are usually 80-90% of the entire premium cost, which could otherwise be
going straight to employee pocket.

> I use the direct demographic comparison, because it would be absurd to
> compare an 8th generation French family to a first or second generation
> Latin American family in the US

And yet you're comparing a 5th generation New England family in the US to a
first generation Lebanese family in France? OK then. And yes, Lebanese would
be statistically white.

> The US has a superior university education system.

And a superior college debt system. Did you subtract college debt payments
from your "median disposable income" as well by the way?

> The US is superior to France in:

Capitalism. Yes, US is indeed superior to France in that. Which is exactly
what GP meant by benefiting 5%.

------
hiven
I've heard France is a poor location for startups due to their existing
regulations, incentives etc. It sounds like they should fix that first.

~~~
ddebernardy
If by "due to their existing regulations" you mean not being able to fire any
employee overnight after they pass their renewable 3-month trial period, then
yeah, it sucks. (But let's be honest: you seriously need more than 6 months to
figure out if someone's a good fit?) If you meant anything else it's mostly an
urban legend IMO: speaking for myself, I found the administration to be more
streamlined than most I've interacted with (including that of the US).

Startup friendly capital is scarcer in FR than in the UK or the US, but
there's still some and you can always head to London (which you can reach by
TGV) to meet startup friendly VCs.

And yes, the tax rate is high, blah blah blah. But try other EU countries for
even worse. You're covered for healthcare, retirement, get 5-7 weeks of paid
vacation, etc., and public services, good infrastructure, etc. all of which
come at a cost indeed.

------
partisan
So no children? It only mentions the spouse.

~~~
tonfa
I think it's covered: The “skills and talents”, “EU Blue Card,” “employee on
assignment” and “scientist-researcher” temporary residence permits provide
full rights to a “private and family life” permit for family members
accompanying a non-EU national. (from [http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/what-
do-i-need-before-leavin...](http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/what-do-i-need-
before-leaving/france/family-member_en))

~~~
partisan
Thank you. I will now plead the case to my wife.

------
mavelikara
> Validity: Four years, on a renewable basis.

I quickly skimmed the page, but could not find information on a basic
question. Does this visa allow an engineer to immigrate to France as a
permanent resident/citizen in the long run? If so, what is the time horizon
one is looking at?

------
giis
Anyone tried to subscribe for the updates? Looks like confirmation email sent
only in French?

------
EternalData
With most developed nations looking to focus on tech and an inverting age
curve threatening pension systems, I wonder how long it'll take for everything
to shift from rampant nationalism to more open borders (at least economic
borders).

------
tn13
How favorable are France's labor laws ? Is it possible to have at will
employment?

~~~
ttoinou
Labor laws are not favorable ; french like to feel protected by their state.
"At-will employment" doesn't exists but since 10 years we have an easy-to-get
freelance status ("auto entrepreneur") with low tax for under 36 K€/year.

~~~
ddebernardy
That "but" is dubious advice. There also is a hefty fine/clawback awaiting you
if you "hire" the latter as "employees" and treat them as such. It's not
specific to FR, in that the criteria that make employees that are mostly the
same as those in CA, but FR taxmen and labor inspectors probably pay more
attention.

------
nathan_f77
This is great! The only problem is that I would have to move to France and
meet a lot of French people.

But seriously, I hope this will encourage many more countries to offer this
type of visa.

------
brilliantcode
I really don't see the point unless there are grants and labor based tax
credits. Canada has the right model but it's still tough for small businesses
to secure grant.

------
hamilyon2
Thank you, hacker news. That might be a chance I waited for.

------
Jerry2
I went to Paris in January of 2016 for a conference. Spent 3 days there, got
spat on twice and yelled at. Would not go back even if I was paid to do
nothing.

------
leojg
Anybody know how possible is to get a visa in france or another european
country without a degree and 5 years of experience as a software developer?

------
xarien
Why put this out prior to French elections?

~~~
throwaway1892
Well, the current government could be trying to have one positive result. And
have some example of migrants with a positive economic impact.

~~~
throwaway1892
> Are you trying to imply that Syrians and Tunisians have NO positive economic
> impact?

Why is this comment dead? It was more or less my point, which that a lot of
unqualified migrants, mostly from Africa and Asia, has no positive economic
impact, since we have NOTHING to offer to them (no job, no future). So I am
opposed to more unqualified migrants coming for economic reasons. Syrian
refugees, on the other hand, I think we should help them.

------
dannylandau
Is there a list of the top French start-ups? I'm assuming the Withings would
be one near the top.

~~~
user5994461
1) criteo (which is big nowadays, that's an ad company somewhat competing with
Google)

Everything else is second tiers.

~~~
julio83
Sigfox etc.

~~~
user5994461
Yes. I hesitated to put Sigfox.

The thing is, it's in Toulouse (a major French city). That might be the only
good place[1] in a 100 miles radius.

I find it incredibly risky to play all hopes on a single company with zero
backup plan. (I've worked in France, I've seen how bad it gets when you loose
your job).

[1] I have higher standards than the average Frenchie, just like anyone who's
worked at top web and financial companies.

------
bsaul
Warning : Highly sensitive subject

Everyone who has ever done recruiting in a french IT company noticed that 80
to 90% of the resumes you receive come from North African countries (old
colonies, mainly Algeria and Tunisia), that try to get a job in order to get a
Visa. Most of them are unqualified, but they just "go for it".

Now, is this initiative going to lead to most of them pretending to want to
start a company ? And how is the program going to filter qualified individuals
to opportunists ?

~~~
Shanea93
There are only 70 start-up incubator visas available, so I assume competition
is exceptionally fierce.

This aside, for the engineer visas, it requires getting a job offer from one
of the "100+ leading French Start-Ups", which means you presumably have to
pass whatever requirements those hiring managers impose on you as well.

~~~
bsaul
Ok, thanks for the info. For the engineer visas, I thought that obtaining a
Visa once a company has agreed to hire you was already possible. So what's the
difference with this program, in the "engineer" case ?

------
reaktivo
`Cette page est indisponible.` When trying to subscribe to the newsletter ):

~~~
fn
I got this error too.

So this is why they need engineers...

------
hartator
Don't go there. The limit of freedom of speech is real and can block you. Even
when you run a startup that has nothing to do with local politics or anything
controversial. Plus, we are still in "state of emergency", that gives the
state more rights than the patriot act. Go to the US, Canada or New Zealand.

~~~
bsaul
Freedom of speech issues in France ?? I'd say a good reason not to come here
is bureaucracy and taxes, but not issues with freedom of speech... Do you have
some facts you'd like to share ?

~~~
woodhull
France tries to regulate what people wear while sitting on the beach. It seems
downright opposed to multiculturalism and diversity. Freedom of expression
isn't just the right to write blog posts.

~~~
scrollaway
I sure do see a lot of people here who have zero actual experience of France,
ready to pass judgement based on whatever clickbait they happened to read a
few years back, after it's gone through a couple of translation layers.

Speaking as somebody who's lived in France, Greece, the UK, the US and Sweden:
France is by far the most "multiculturalism-friendly" place of all these. Yes,
even more than Sweden.

Like most French people, I'm not proud of my country. But this is something I
can be proud of.

(Disclaimer: Some cities are of course less kind to strangers than others;
it's not a uniform utopia)

~~~
Dr0Dre
I beg to differ. My experience was really the opposite.

I come from the maghreb region and lived in France for a while. I experienced
racism at work and outside of it.

If you are arab looking or black, you better emmigrate to another country like
UK/US or even germany for a better chance. If you don't you are doomed.

For those who don't understand what I'm talking about check a movie called "La
Haine".

And I agree with you, it might be different in other cities.

------
unknown_apostle
I'm warning everyone: don't come to France (or Belgium). The worst thing that
could happen to you, is that your startup actually becomes hugely successful.
You will get ripped off left and right by an pugnacious socialist state,
supported by a spoiled population that still hasn't fully digested just how
irrelevant they have made themselves in the world.

~~~
throwaway1892
> a spoiled population that still hasn't fully digested just how irrelevant
> they have made themselves in the world.

I think the problem was more with the various gov we had since De Gaulle than
the population. And also with the massive immigration and the political
exploitation of the migrants.

