
Show HN: Compare benefits of second passport based on the one you have - askytb
https://multinational.io/
======
CalRobert
I believe Germany makes you renounce your old citizenship in most (not all)
cases to gain German citizenship, but you have it listed as allowing it?

Though I believe they recently made an exception for Americans getting charged
ridiculous fees to renounce if it was more than a month of income, or similar.

Thanks for making this! I'm a US citizen applying for naturalization in a few
months. Here's to 7% more territory! Though really, the EU ought to be
something of a block since it means the right to live and work throughout, not
just in one country. For now, at least.

Also, worth noting that Republic of Ireland might get a bonus factor, in a
sense, for soon being the only passport that lets you work throughout the EU
and the UK.

~~~
raarts
> I believe Germany makes you renounce your old citizenship in most (not all)
> cases to gain German citizenship, but you have it listed as allowing it?

Same for The Netherlands[1]

[1] [https://www.government.nl/topics/dutch-nationality/dual-
nati...](https://www.government.nl/topics/dutch-nationality/dual-nationality)

~~~
mtmail
You can keep the previous citizenship (and thus have two) if you're a citizen
of another EU country or Switzerland.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Dual_ci...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Dual_citizenship)

~~~
jolmg
It doesn't seem that OP takes in such conditions into the dual citizenship
data. Would be nice if he did.

------
cjoy
Best second passport for an Australian: Germany.

... well, I guess that means I’m a lucky person when it comes to passports.
When I reverse search, the best second passport for a German is “Application
Error”, and I sure have plenty of those as well :)

~~~
sbmthakur
It's showing Ivory Coast now. Probably because one will get access to several
African nations.

~~~
1996
But which African countries sell citizenship?

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Pretty much all countries probably will sell citizenship if you're a multi-
billionaire.

The UK situation, for example:

>"Officially called a “Tier 1 investor” visa in the UK, the scheme gives
individuals residency in exchange for investing £2m in UK bonds or shares
through a bank, with applicants eligible for indefinite leave to remain, and
even full citizenship, after five years. That is, unless they can stump up
more cash: those offering £5m can settle after three years, and those with
£10m after just two." ([https://www.theguardian.com/uk-
news/2017/jul/04/golden-visa-...](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-
news/2017/jul/04/golden-visa-immigration-deal-british-citizenship-home-
office))

Now it's the Grauniad so I don't expect it to be completely right but I expect
it's close -- [THIS BIT IS WRONG, PROPERTY INVESTMENT IS EXCLUDED: so make a
company to buy your small pied-a-terre in London for a few £Million and you
get access to citizenship.]

Things have tightened up recently for Russians, not sure about others.

See also
[https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-investor](https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-investor).

~~~
toyg
_> Things have tightened up recently for Russians_

I believe it's for everyone, you basically have to indicate where your money
is coming from to a higher degree of detail. It's an anti-money-laundering
measure, I think, more than anything. The situation had become shameful, with
London being the black-economy capital of the world.

------
macdice
One thing I noticed: for me (Kiwi/Brit), India is listed as "visa on the
border/online" and the USA and Canada are listed as "visa free". But in
practice the process is about the same, because the "visa waiver" programmes
(ESTA/ETA) now require online registration, and the Indian "e-visa" can now be
done online. Admittedly the Indian e-visa is more expensive and requires a bit
more information to be supplied, but I wonder if, "visa-free" travel and
"visa" travel are converging...

~~~
tweedledee
The not-a-visa visa (ESTA) is done to get around international visa waiver
agreements and avoid retaliation. Now that the US has gotten away with it
other countries are following suit.

------
BurningFrog
As an actual dual citizen, let me tell you the downside:

Keeping two passports up to date is a non trivial amount of work and expenses,
and perhaps travel. Depending on the two countries, of course.

Unless you travel a fair amount, it is often not worth the effort. I've given
up on keeping my old passport current, and feel good!

~~~
bernardino
For what two countries are you a dual citizen? Which one isn't worth the
effort to keep up to date?

I'm a dual citizen for the United States and Mexico, and it's fairly easy to
update my Mexican passport here in the United States - not sure if that's the
case inversely.

~~~
chx
For many you either need to do it in the issuing country or at an embassy.
Example: [https://ottawa.mfa.gov.hu/eng/page/utlevel-
igenylese](https://ottawa.mfa.gov.hu/eng/page/utlevel-igenylese)

I live in vancouver so my choices include a 4.5 hrs flight to Toronto, paying
very close attention when they travel to Vancouver (which is effin rare, see
[https://ottawa.mfa.gov.hu/eng/page/kihelyezett-
uegyfelfogada...](https://ottawa.mfa.gov.hu/eng/page/kihelyezett-
uegyfelfogadas) \-- right now if you try to get an appointment you simply get
a 'no appointments available' error) or just renew my passport in Hungary. For
me, that's relatively easy since I am back there at least twice a year so
that's OK. But the bastards just changed the procedures so the valid date is
your last birthday so when I recently renewed I got 9 years and 1.5 months
instead of ten years. And, if all goes by plan in a few years I won't travel
to Hungary ever again so this will become a major hassle but as long as the
idiot government doesn't pull a Huxit it's still worth it because it gives me
free movement in the EU.

------
11thEarlOfMar
I've wondered about becoming a 'citizen of the world': what is the combination
of passports that grants citizenship to the most nations? For example, this
immigration attorney cites a client who held 8 concurrent citizenships[1]:

Cape Verde (through economic citizenship)

Belize (though economic citizenship)

Dominica (through economic citizenship)

Grenada (through economic citizenship)

Saint Kitts and Nevis (through economic citizenship)

Ireland (island) (through lineage)

Canada (through naturalization)

The United Kingdom (through naturalization in a British Overseas Territory)

[1] [https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-greatest-number-of-
citizen...](https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-greatest-number-of-citizenships-
ever-held-by-one-person)

~~~
dev_dull
To me this represents more of a risk than a benefit. If you enter on a
Venezuelan passport and that government decides it wants something from you,
the host country might be obligated to hand you over regardless of your
interesting variety of passports.

~~~
mFixman
You could always get help from the embassies of your other passports'
countries.

~~~
amaccuish
most embassies are unable to help if you are in the country of your other
citizenship. e.g. i won't get "help" from the UK if I'm in trouble in NZ
(UK/NZ national)

------
dewey
It just tells me "Application error". What's the difference between that and
[https://www.passportindex.org/comparebyPassport.php](https://www.passportindex.org/comparebyPassport.php)?

~~~
mcpherrinm
It's down so I can't see, but I assume this is doing a calculation I tried to
do using passportindex and had trouble with:

Most passport rankings are by total number of places you can go. But given I
already have one passport, what value do I get from a second passport? For
example, Canada, USA, Uk, etc have fairly similar sets of countries you can go
to. But maybe there's a passport that gets me access to the various middle
Eastern and African countries I don't have access to. So maybe something lower
overall rated is better as my 2nd passport.

~~~
projectramo
Check the tab "Improve" on the passportindex.

It'll show you what you get out of a second, third etc passport.

------
thomasfedb
As a dual UK & Australian citizen I'd be keen to see 'Brexit Mode' \- I
imagine that other EU passports suddenly become more desirable...

------
lettergram
One thing that may have been good to add, is the length of time / financial
requirements to get citizenship.

For example, I'm personally planning to move to Ireland relatively soon; in
part because it's one of the easiest to get dual citizenship (5 of the last 9
years)[1].

[1] [https://www.quora.com/Which-EU-country-has-the-easiest-
citiz...](https://www.quora.com/Which-EU-country-has-the-easiest-citizenship-
requirements)

~~~
dorchadas
Same, though not solely for EU citizenship, but also because I love Ireland.
My issue is just getting a job, so it's likely going to be back to school for
me, which will push off the counter for years, but give me more networking
opportunities.

~~~
lettergram
Something I'm still trying to figure out is if I can have a remote job. There
are plenty of jobs that are remote.

~~~
endersshadow
The thing that's difficult in Ireland is internet access if you're living
outside of Dublin. We looked at moving to Dingle for a bit, but we couldn't
find anything available (from America) that had high speed internet. Granted,
it was out in the countryside, so I completely understand, but it was a non-
starter as far as going there for a remote job was. It's just something you
have to keep in mind that if you're coming from an American city you may not
think about.

~~~
daveoflynn
Was that a while ago? Dingle town (and many other small towns in Kerry) have
fibre: [https://fibrerollout.ie/rollout-map/](https://fibrerollout.ie/rollout-
map/) .

Lots of houses have been connected in the last 2-3 years.

~~~
endersshadow
Yeah, it was a few years ago. That's amazing, though. I'm going to have to
show my wife this map!

------
zhte415
This is interesting.

It could include better information for dual citizenship. For example, I
searched for China, which does not allow dual citizenship at all, and the
search results showed the results for the reciprocal relationship country.
Because of the complexity of countries reciprocal relationships, I guess this
would need to be a 1-1 mapping country to country.

I liked you used the term 'Select your current passport:' and avoided the term
'country' because some passports are for territories.

So I checked a territory, Hong Kong. There wasn't an option whether this is
the modern HKSAR or the old British National (Overseas), or could it be
British Overseas Citizenship? These are all edge cases, cumulatively edge-
cases for 10s of millions of people, but perhaps they're better solved by
local services rather than a general solution.

The main problem of dual-citizenship I've seen is when one embassy says they
can't deal with a problem, so go to the other embassy. The other embassy says
the same. A bit of a no-man's-land.

------
rconti
Cool! With my 2nd citizenship (italian) I get +Brazil, Iran, and Venezuela..
wait.

That said, always been planning on using my 2nd citizenship to live in Europe
for an extended period of time. My wife is British, and pretty soon, might
need the connection through me to have EU benefits...

~~~
MrSourz
You can actually figure out what your best 3rd citizenship is by passing the
parameters into the URL e.g.,

[https://multinational.io/best_passport/the%20United%20Kingdo...](https://multinational.io/best_passport/the%20United%20Kingdom+Canada)

------
petecox
The blue SJ territory between Greenland and Russia is Svalbard, part of
Norway. (not a bug in the map!)

It's not part of the Schengen zone, so will allow people to enter visa free
but presumably you need visitor rights to the country you're coming from
(compare Andorra).

------
colemickens
Maybe I'm out of the loop but I feel like the utility would be greatly
increased with a sentence or two. I have no idea what the values in the table
mean, let alone why I'd want or need a second passport. (Also, what "HDI" is)

~~~
ma2rten
FYI:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index)

------
Kagerjay
I would be wary about having a dual citizenship if you are intending to do
security clearance government work in the states.

I was actually going to work for the US government during my junior to senior
year at school. I had 3 internships lined up. One in Germany, one with a REU
doing gold nanoparticle fabrication at an IVY league school, and one with the
government. But at the last moment got burned because I wasn't able to gain
security clearance. I even did drug tests etc and the process took me several
months, I accepted the position many months prior before summer started

They never gave me a valid reason but I was grilled on the fact a few weeks
prior that I recently renewed my 10 year contract with my birthplace's
citizenship.

I live in America. The government treats it as a moral gray area for you to
work in high secure areas while having a dual citizenship, especially if its
recently renewed (which was the case for me, my 10 yr dual citizenship was
going to expire around same time I was going to work for US government). The
other citizenship I had was a 1st world country as well with very good
relations to USA, so it was kind of weird.

------
jdlyga
Can't be a dual chinese / american citizen. Would be nice for my family.

~~~
jbg_
I know several people that are dual citizens of China and US. China doesn't
recognise the second citizenship, but that doesn't prevent you having it. If
China finds out, though, they'll apparently strip you of your Chinese
citizenship.

~~~
yegle
Travel between US/CN will be a hassle for those people because the border
control officials of China won't let you board the flight if you show your CN
passport doesn't have US visa. One loophole is that you can use Hong Kong as
the middle hop since you don't need passport to visit HK.

The dual citizen status is actually very common. If a child's parents are
Chinese citizen working/studying in US with a temporary visa (H1b, F1) and the
child was born in US, the child is eligible to be a Chinese citizen, thus a
dual citizenship.

------
samgaw
Worth noting that Brexit spiked Rep of Ireland passport applications given
that everyone in Northern Ireland is eligible.

[https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-
ai...](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-aids-surge-
in-irish-passport-applications-1.3513043)

------
mikorym
This says that Denmark does not have dual citizenship. It seems [1] that may
be not true.

[1] [https://www.thelocal.dk/20141218/denmark-passes-dual-
citizen...](https://www.thelocal.dk/20141218/denmark-passes-dual-citizenship-
bill)

~~~
taohansen
I can confirm this isn't true. Danish/US dual-national right here. Denmark is
fully aware of my US citizenship.

~~~
EduardoBautista
How did you become a dual national?

~~~
taohansen
Born in Denmark to a Danish father and American mother. When you're born on
foreign soil to an American parent that parent declares your birth to the
United States and you receive a Consular Report of Birth Abroad: your US birth
certificate.

I know for a fact the Danish state allows for dual-nationals because I just
renewed my Danish passport and because of new biometrics requires dual-
nationals to give a copy of this Report.

There's one big downside to all this, since Denmark now knows very clearly I
am two people. Should the state decide to revoke this law I will most likely
be forced to choose. Which would be unfortunate, since I can't imagine living
in just one or the other country.

------
toomuchtodo
Could you include years of residency to obtain the second passport in your
calculation?

------
cgb223
Is there something like this that takes into account long term stays?

I.e. if I'm a US Citizen, it would probably be more advantageous to have an EU
Nation 2nd Passport so I have unrestricted access to all EU member countries

------
matttproud
American abroad here:

My utility function optimizes for having a secondary citizenship in a stable
place should the U.S. go down the toilet even more than it has. Switzerland it
is for me. (it’s self-standingly awesome enough to want citizenship here
outside of the aforementioned).

Also: maybe I want to slum it a bit more elsewhere in Europe without having to
have a specialized visa to permit my working somewhere without a well-paying
job, which is basically a requirement for Americans in Europe.

Also also: the old world is really nice place to raise a child and is family
friendly.

------
devilmoon
How do you calculate the score for best second citizenship in detail? You
should probably add a page for that.

I.e. I get told that the best second nationality I could get is Serbian... Why
though?

~~~
dmurray
So did I! Although my country, Ireland, isn't explicitly listed.

Looks like it takes "territory" (+40%) as a major input. Russia, China and
Mongolia are big countries by land area which have a good understanding with
Serbia, but nothing special with EU states. Guessing most Europeans will also
hit Serbia. What's the actual most useful second passport to an Irish person?
Probably American.

~~~
et2o
I have to think American citizenship would be a pretty bad choice for a second
passport, since America taxes its citizens on income earned abroad. You'd be
approximately doubling your taxes if you are already taxed on income while
abroad.

(FWIW I'm an American)

~~~
roywiggins
America will let you deduct your foreign taxes, so if you live and pay taxes
in a high tax country then you in theory won't actually owe anything to the
US, but instead you'll owe your accountant for helping you file.

~~~
et2o
Interesting. I was not aware. Wouldn't you still owe the IRS money if the
foreign taxes are deducted?

As far as I understand tax deductions work like: Initial Income - Deduction =
Adjusted Income. Then, you owe full taxes on the Adjusted Income.

Let's say European Tax Rate is 40%, American Tax Rate is 20% (hypothetically!)

Foreign income is 100k USD equivalent.

You pay 40k taxes in Europe and are left with 60K.

You deduct 40K from Initial Income, leaving you with adjusted income of 60K.
You then pay 20% of that (12K) to the IRS, leaving you with 48K.

So you’re in this hypothetical tax range taxed at less than US+European tax,
but still have an effective tax rate much greater than not having US
citizenship.

Simple formula I think:

Effective Tax = Income x EuropeanTaxRate + (Income-Income x EuropeanTaxRate) x
AmericanTaxRate

Factor out income etc. I’m on my phone :-)

~~~
AdamM12
You don't pay taxes on on your first like 118k in income [1]. Because this
lowers your AGI even if you make more than that you still start at the bottom
of the tax bracket. Rough example you make 125k thus 125k-118k - 7k in taxable
income thus in 10% bracket. There are obviously other rules for non W-2 income
and property taxes.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_earned_income_exclusio...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_earned_income_exclusion)

------
pmyteh
The maps on the comparative pages could use a different (ideally equal area)
projection. At present, the free-for-all status of Svalbard is extremely
prominent :-)

------
davedx
TIL my shiny new Dutch passport gets me into Iran (British one did not).
That’s pretty cool.

------
stockkid
Very cool. It'd be nice to be able to type in the select box because scrolling
hundreds of countries is not fun.

Also some countries are hard to find even in alphabetical order. e.g. South
Korea == Korea, South == Republic of Korea == Korea, Republic of

------
dzhiurgis
You are missing working holiday schemes - typically one of the easier ways to
get a chance of moving abroad. Caveat is they are mostly under 30-yo type of
deal, but its quite feasible to gain citizenships before that.

------
grecy
Can I ask how you made the world map that is interactive and color-coded?

~~~
Simpliplant
It uses [https://www.chartkick.com/](https://www.chartkick.com/)

------
grecy
Where did you get the data?

I have just driven down West Africa, and I can tell you the "visa
requirements" are very fluid, and what applies one day does not necessarily
apply the very next!

~~~
toomuchtodo
Would love to read a blog post about this when you’ve got the time to spare
during your adventure!

~~~
grecy
About the visas?

[1] is the most I've written.

I documented where you can get every single Visa while on the move, and how
much they each cost in my eBook "Overland Travel Essentials: West Africa:
Myths, Misconceptions and Misnomers" [2]

[1] - [http://theroadchoseme.com/west-african-
visas](http://theroadchoseme.com/west-african-visas)

[2] - [https://amzn.to/2O75Uxr](https://amzn.to/2O75Uxr)

~~~
toomuchtodo
Thank you!

------
lowry
I spotted a mistake. Armenia is visa-free for citizens of Belarus.

------
elliottback
Could you please add options for 3 passports? I actually have
US/Canada/Finland and it would be interesting to see, although US v Canada is
probably almost identical.

~~~
tomerico
The site actually has this option. Choose two passport to compare, and click
on the link “best third passport”, and select your country

------
k__
It shows that I don't need a visa as a German going to USA.

Is this really true?

I had the impression I can't simply go to USA whenever and as long as I
wanted, which sounds like needing a visa to me.

~~~
nolok
Not needing a visa and not being able to stay for as long as you wanted are
two different things, what you're looking for is "free movement". If you hover
"ease of travel" on the best second passport page, they show this with
"freedom of movement > visa free > visa on the border".

Eg for a lot of asian countries, we european can go at will, without a visa,
as long as you stay for 30 days or less. It's not a visa on arrival either,
they merely stamp your passport with the entry date. But if you want to stay
longer, you need to ask for a visa (and for some countries, you can do that
visa on arrival, in the airport).

However for the US, us european still need to apply to the ESTA, which is a
visa in anything but in name. I'm not sure why the EU is not forcing the US to
drop it for us, or force it back on US citizen coming here, because this seems
to be a trickery against the "no visa required" deal.

~~~
r00fus
Tourism economy is why the EU doesn't reciprocate the ESTA policy.

US Can do without tourism (it's actively sacrificed tourism with successive
post 9/11 travel restrictions) but the EU countries would suffer greatly.

------
Djvacto
Have you considered adding the possibility to input multiple passports you
already hold?

Like if I already have 2, and am trying to decide on a 3rd, it'd be difficult
to compare all 3.

~~~
askytb
You can do it from the
[https://multinational.io/compare_passports/](https://multinational.io/compare_passports/)
page. (And if'd like to add more than two you can manually add it to the url)

------
CGamesPlay
This is a cool site! One minor bug, the “third passport” link in the “see
also” section seems to be mistranslated. It says “nacionales” instead of
“nationals”.

------
throw7
If I wasn't so lazy, life hacking my way around the world to get multiple
citizenships sounds kinda fun. serious. i wonder if anyone has done this...

~~~
mischifous
Have got Belgium, US, and Auzzie citizenship :)

------
nolok
Would really be nice if I could select the region and/or countries I'm more
interested in to know what the second best passport would be.

------
Giorgi
Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not countries though.

~~~
occamrazor
They are nevertheless territories with a local government which enforces
restrictions on entry. For the purpose of travel restrictions they are very
similar to ordinary countries.

------
caoilte
This will be more useful after Brexit...

------
echan00
This is awesome. Great idea, it works.

------
nutjob2
What about actual multinationals?

~~~
askytb
There's an option for a third best passport for dual-citizens on the best
passports page:
[http://multinational.io/best_passport](http://multinational.io/best_passport)

~~~
nutjob2
I've already got three.

~~~
askytb
Impressive! You can add the third one to the url manually, e.g.
[http://multinational.io/best_passport/the%20United%20States+...](http://multinational.io/best_passport/the%20United%20States+Canada+Australia)

~~~
nutjob2
Meh, it's not that exciting, but thanks for the tip!

------
type7
most stupid comparison. the number of visa free countries is completely
bullshit. who wants to travel to saudia arabia or sudan. the real benefit of a
second passport is whether that passport allows you to live in a country and
have decent life or at least give you backup in the future.

------
DyslexicAtheist
this is absolutely brilliant thank you.

------
Exuma
Too bad it doesnt work ... whats the point of using heroku if you don't even
scale your dynos under heavy load

~~~
ceejayoz
Heroku's standard tier doesn't have auto-scaling. You have to be using the
$250/month performance dynos for it. I'd suspect that's not feasible for a
little hobby project.

~~~
askytb
I did not expect it to get any attention, so it was on the free tier dyno when
it hit the front page. (And even seem to have held up for some time judging by
the logs, before dying from the extreme lack of available ram.) Bumping it to
the standard dyno when I noticed the issue was enough to keep it running.

------
eggsome
Comparing Australia and Canada shows they have the same ease of access to US.
This is not correct, since Australians have to apply online for an ESTA prior
to travel.

