

Flat design, yada yada. Here's what I need from iOS 7 as a developer - davidkatz
https://medium.com/design-ux/b5dd7968753f

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acqq
As a user, I am very against: "No More Push Notification Permissions"

As long as I can select, I'll allow Push Notification only for one or two
applications that I really want to interrupt me (e.g. some messaging client
that I want to depend on -- even other messaging clients should keep quiet
until I want to "chat"). All other apps should be forbidden by default to
notify me of anything.

~~~
davidkatz
I understand the problem of spam in notifications, but my question is, what's
wrong with deleting an app that spams you, or not installing it in the first
place if you don't trust their use of push notifications?

~~~
jvzr
Maybe I want to play that great game everyone recommends, and yet not receive
their f*cking marketing push?

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PanMan
I don't agree Push shouldn't need access and _"– if a user doesn’t like their
notificaitons, they know they can delete the app"_. There is some apps that I
like to use, but don't want to allow to wake me at 3AM because they think
something is important. The app can still work without being allowed to send
pushes.

~~~
davidkatz
The thing is, a lot of apps can't work without push, or work a lot worse
without push, and I think users aren't well equipped to decide in a few
seconds.

I think you can always find a case for more granular control. Say, if iOS
enabled you to control the camera access or the microphone access for each
app, we could find some class of users which might benefit from it. The
question is, at what price?

~~~
krichman
False analogy. The camera and microphone aren't readily available to non-
running apps, whereas push notifications are. Push notifications can also
interrupt other running applications.

Allowing them globally is a far greater burden on users than asking once when
the app opens the first time. If your app cannot work without push it needs to
fail gracefully, end of story.

~~~
davidkatz
I don't think it's a false analogy. I didn't not try to argue that the burden
is equal, just that granular control can always come with benefits. For some
apps, "failing gracefully" means not delivering a large part of the app's
value, and that's a shame.

I believe that there are better ways to solve this problem, and that educating
users to delete apps, and thereby educating developers to be conservative with
their notifications is part of the solution.

~~~
krichman
One man's "not delivering a large part of the app's value" is another's "not
pestering me outside of the hour in the evening I want to use it".

Anecdotally, there is not one single app that I have which I would like to
give me push notifications, although a few I use daily would like to. You
would force me and others like me to delete them? I'd switch to Android
immediately.

There's already a solution for the problem. It's to inform users that your app
has more functionality with push notifications on. Not asking Apple to impose
policy on their users that restricts their already limited freedom with the
device. What we are discussing is a UI failure on your part, not an iOS
failure.

"Educating developers to be conservative" is not going to happen. You're
thinking of your own app delivering value but forgetting sociopathic actors
like Path who feel free to send your entire contacts list to themselves.

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drawkbox
None of these will happen.

\- Push notifications the question is asked up front, good enough. Later on
you can ask them to turn it on for benefits, that means notifications have to
be worth it. This is the only way to control spammy abusers of notifications.

\- I agree 30% is high for physical goods but you'll have to raise prices on
iOS. We are sharecroppers on a platform that we didn't build, they built it,
it is the new normal. It's either feudal or sharecropping but that is what
platforms can do and will. Smart competitors would lower their take (Play!,
Amazon, Windows, BB) but they won't because it is greed and that is the new
norm, just following the Apple script. Until there is competition here on the
fees/take noone will budge.

\- Profile photos are available in plenty of places, gravatar, facebook, g+,
etc. Maybe there is a startup that wants to aggregate all these and you can
easily call that service. Doesn't need to be in the OS level. It would be
great if profile photos had some common standard but everyone is building
walled gardens and not sharing.

~~~
dakrisht
Yeap. No chance. I agree with most, these are three items that won't improve
the experience at all for user/dev.

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coldtea
> _But Apple – if a user doesn’t like their notificaitons, they know they can
> delete the app. Push notifications don’t need a permissions process._

So it never occured to the author that a user might like an app and STILL
don't want push notifications from it?

Jesus...

~~~
davidkatz
Author here. Of course it occurred to me, but the problem is that users often
can't predict if they want notifications or not, or how critical notifications
are to the product. I'll give you a real world example from another
permissions process - location.

One of the apps I work on is a neighborhood market place. It's _all about_
seeing what people are selling around you, and requires location. The name of
the app is roughly 'neighborhood', the marketing materials call it out in big
letters, the permissions message clearly explains why the app needs location
access. Still, people reflexively see a permissions dialogue and deny. Then
the app doesn't work, and they contact support asking why.

~~~
coldtea
> _Then the app doesn't work, and they contact support asking why._

Then the app, when loaded, should nag them to re-enable location permissions
for it to work.

~~~
davidkatz
Yeah, I did that. You need to tell users to navigate several levels of their
settings app, which is a pain. Most people never touch their settings are and
are put off by having to deal with it.

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objclxt
One of the reasons Apple doesn't want to get involved in the whole physical
product payments area is there are a number of additional regulatory and
liability issues.

But I don't think you have to be lumbered with PayPal - there are lots of
great options for taking payment for physical products through apps. Stripe
even have an out of the box UI layer for iOS to handle credit card payments,
and they'll only charge you 2.5%.

I admit some providers (like Stripe) are currently geographically restricted,
but that's going to change in the short to mid-term. Going forward there's
lots of potential outside of Apple.

~~~
coldtea
> _But I don't think you have to be lumbered with PayPal - there are lots of
> great options for taking payment for physical products through apps. Stripe
> even have an out of the box UI layer for iOS to handle credit card payments,
> and they'll only charge you 2.5%._

US only (and UK recently IIRC), so mostly useless for an international
business.

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rdl
The only thing I want is great credential/auth handling, in the device. Maybe
biometrics on the phone, too. 4-digit passcodes are a failure, since it's
possible to try an unlimited number (bypassing the delete-on-10-failures),
even with physical possession required.

If I got a bonus, it would be the ability to select overrides for internal
apple apps (Mail sucks, Chrome > Safari, a phone client which supports SIP and
crypto, a messages app which supports crypto) so other apps would use it, too.

Extra super bonus is iCloud inside the firewall/self hosted on OSX.

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eertami
>Push notifications don’t need a permissions process.

Shouldn't happen and won't happen. You're arguing that you know better than
the people who are actually using your app when chances are, you do not.

~~~
davidkatz
I'd wager to say that I do. I'll give you a concrete example. People order
goods, and I want to send them a "Your order has shipped!" notification.
People who paid for something want to know that it has shipped and is on route
to them. When I give them a push notifications permissions dialogue, they
assume I'm going to bomb them with promotional material. I'm not, and they're
missing out on a better experience.

One workaround is to better explain what notifications are for, but I've
thrown days of work at designing better notifications permissions funnels.
Lovely graphics, succinct messages that explain exactly what you're going to
get, and it helps a little, but not enough. People are so negatively impressed
by notifications, they often almost reflexively deny permissions.

~~~
PanMan
And you think allowing all pushes will fix this? I assume it will only make it
worse. Not for your app, but by all the other apps that will send a million
pushes.

~~~
davidkatz
I understand, and that's why it's tragic. I and my audience needs to suffer
because other developers abuse the system. I'm calling into question whether
there is not a better way.

~~~
krichman
It only does the popup after you try to activate them, yes? Why not allow the
user to turn them on with a button and not use them until then? "Hey this app
is a lot better with push notifications, tap this to turn them on. A dialog
will appear, tap 'Allow' to get notices etc. etc."

You said elsewhere that ~40% of users assume your app will spam them, but you
don't know it's not ~40% of users simply don't want push notifications even
from "benevolent" applications.

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jon-wood
If you want people to approve notifications don't just throw up a permission
dialog at startup, let them use your app for a bit, and when they make an
action that will cause notifications to be needed ask them then after telling
them why you want to use push.

Saying "you can just delete the app" seems to be missing the point somewhat.
There are many games that I enjoy playing, but I don't want them sending me a
message about having a free coin while I'm trying to sleep.

~~~
davidkatz
I've done all of that, and it solves some of the problem, but still falls
short. Ultimately, my experience is that users just aren't well equipped to
decide if notifications are worth it or not. My notifications are silent (no
sound), and relevant ("Your order has shipped!"), but people wouldn't know it.
When they see a request for push notifications, they assume they're going to
get free coin promotions, which is a shame.

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idan
What about android-style permissions on install (versus making users jump
through four "allow access to…" choices)

~~~
__chrismc
I disagree. As someone who's gone back and forth between platforms several
times, I much prefer the iOS system. It's more button taps for me, yes, but I
find it clearer and I'm more likely to check what it's asking for. It's also
more granular... I can allow access to my camera, but not to contacts for
example. Android, by contrast, gives me a long list of "stuff" to accept and I
have to allow access to all of it. Admittedly it has got a bit easier to check
that list in the latest version of the Play Store, but it's still not ideal.

My favourite system for requesting permissions is actually Facebook's, which
lies somewhere between these two - give me the full list, but let me "turn
off" certain items if I want.

~~~
davidkatz
I think that most users aren't that well equipped to make these kind of
decisions. How could they know how critical contacts or location permissions
are to the product? I think users need to make a trust/don't trust call on
each app, and Android does this well.

~~~
ajanuary
If they can't tell how critical it is to the app, what difference will being
told it up front or when it's happening make?

The only justification for up front permissions I can come up with is the "I
want my cat pictures" effect.

~~~
davidkatz
The difference is that it enables your trust/don't trust decision. An app that
requires access to your location and contacts has to be more trustworthy than
an app that doesn't.

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digitalengineer
"Categories" in Push notifications would help. The same as with most
mailinglists. Let me check on/off what I'd like to receive and what I don't
want so see. E.g. 'yes' for new functions, status and progress of the App and
my order, 'no' for commercial offers and stuff.

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matteodepalo
The problem with push notifications is that they drain a lot of battery. I
enabled push notifications only for the applications that I really care about,
like Mailbox or Facebook Messages. I just don't want other trivial
applications to drain my battery.

~~~
PanMan
That's just not true (on iOS). Your phone has one connection to the (apple)
server, the amount of messages send has very little influence. Only apps that
run in the background (mostly location and voice) can drain your battery when
not running.

