
DeveloperAuction gets developers paid what they're worth - allangrant
http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/06/quora-airbnb-others-made-30m-in-job-offers-to-engineers-in-first-2-weeks-of-developerauction?hn=true
======
hashset
"DeveloperAuction.com is currently open only to employees of Facebook, Apple,
Twitter, Zynga, and Google as well as Stanford & MIT graduates. If you'd like
to be notified as we expand, please contact us."

Only Stanford and MIT graduates? What about the other 99.9% of tech grads?

~~~
DigitalSea
How about us ghetto developers who taught ourselves everything and know just
as much, perhaps sometimes even more than those who endured years of study? I
hate the way society works. Just because someone went to a good university
doesn't make them a great engineer/developer. I've encountered numerous
developers who went to good universities and knew half as much as I did.

~~~
allangrant
As a fellow self-taught "ghetto" developer, and one of the cofounders of
Developer Auction -- believe me, this is a problem we plan to solve. :)

Limiting it to developers from places that already have rigorous selection
practices is just a starting point. Any suggestions for how to evaluate talent
otherwise? We have a few ideas, but would love to hear yours.

~~~
Bill_Dimm
Why limit it? Collect all relevant info (like college) as fielded data and
allow employers to create whatever filters they want to focus on the type of
employee they want.

If the employer got his/her degree from Cornell (for example), he/she might
not be too thrilled to find that you've decided that job applicants from
Cornell aren't even worth letting into the system.

~~~
bithive123
Their value proposition is that you don't know how to identify the best
candidates but you can outsource the problem to Developer Auction, which
applies arbitrary criteria for you because as they admit, they also don't
know.

Yeah, I don't get it either.

------
xianshou
If I wanted to get the best developers for my new startup, perhaps I'd launch
a company like DeveloperAuction first, find all the vetted A-list engineers,
and secretly swoop in on the best ones for my DeveloperAuction clone. Then
that clone would pivot and become the startup I was actually planning to
build. Meta enough?

~~~
Matt_Mickiewicz
My head is spinning.

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njharman
> “notable GitHub profiles,” CS degrees from Stanford or MIT or currently
> employed at Google, Zynga, Facebook, Twitter, Apple, Yelp and Square for
> upcoming auctions.

That is a narrow field, artificially scarce, driving up prices.

~~~
Matt_Mickiewicz
Those were the developers represented in our first auction, but we're
definitely not going to be turning away senior talent in the future just
because they work at Amazon, LinkedIn, Etsy or Gilt Groupe.

~~~
hashset
"...just because they work at Amazon, LinkedIn, Etsy or Gilt Groupe."

What are you trying to say about the engineers at those companies?

~~~
Matt_Mickiewicz
That we'd love to have them!

~~~
ghettoCoder
I've been reading HN for a long time but I never registed since I never felt
the need to comment, until now.

What a bunch of navel gazing, elitist douchebags you are. Do you think
actually think working a Zynga or Facebook makes you a good dev. Get a grip.
In any sufficiently large set of individuals you will have everything from
poseur to star. Facebook, Zynga and others are not immnune to this like you
would have us believe.

I was around during the previous tech bubble. Paid my dues in the trenches and
earned my stripes. The last startup I was at I was a team lead. It is still
around and growing but I guess since I didn't go a fancy school I don't exist.
That's ok, keep promoting the hiring of greenhorns who think everything they
dream up is new and then proceed to reinvent the wheel. Education does not
make you smart, just educated.

BTW: In case your wondering. I'm happily employed making 6 figures for less
hours than your screened employers would expect.

Epic. Fail.

~~~
daeken
I think you're seriously missing the point. The point is not "employees for
company X are all awesome!", but rather "company X is a good filter". This is
no different than saying "a CS degree is a good filter"; it's not the be-all
end-all, but it's a nice initial filter.

(Note: I have neither a CS degree (or even a high school diploma) nor have I
worked for any of the companies mentioned.)

~~~
ghettoCoder
Perhaps I was a bit harsh (I don't feel bad), but I don't think I'm missing
the point. They are attempting to create an artificial scarcity that promotes
their idea of what a good dev is. It is elitist.

~~~
veyron
"They are attempting to create an artificial scarcity that promotes their idea
of what a good dev is."

No. They are catering to a group of people who specifically care about
pedigree. They are trying to replace the role of the recruiters who do the
same thing.

~~~
hashset
Yeah, but this 'pedigree' being thrown around in these comments is starting to
look more and more like blatant discrimination, which was something the
recruiters hide pretty well.

~~~
veyron
"which was something the recruiters hide pretty well."

The recruiters actively sell the idea that pedigree matters.

------
oliwarner
__DeveloperAuction gets developers paid _the least the market can pay and get
away with_ __

Auctions with a scarce supply get collectors and enthusiasts. Prices soar.
Auctions with a constant stream of the same old stuff are just a race to the
bottom.

They're currently following the first model by limiting where the engineers
can come from. They clearly want to be seen as the Southerby's of the
recruitment auction world.

So it'll be interesting to see how long before they figure out they'll
probably make more money being Ebay.

~~~
JoachimSchipper
I have no idea how this will play out, but note that Sotheby's is still in
business and made a profit of $171.4 million. Which is to say, exclusivity can
pay pretty well, especially if they manage to keep money that would usually go
to recruiters' fees for themselves.

~~~
oliwarner
This is the truth but —to continue the analogy— ebay profits are double
that... _every month_.

It is definitely a choice and differentiation is much, much easier when you're
snobby about your merchandise but are they going to have enough product to
sell to keep the doors open indefinitely? Are there really that many A*
candidates in major tech firms and positions that want to move job?

------
lachyg
Congrats on the launch, guys!

I like this in theory, but in reality the most important thing when hiring is
not how good they look on paper, but how well a developer fits in and works
with a team. If they're a team player, how well they can resolve disputes,
etc.

We've surveyed a LOT of employers, and that's definitely the number one thing
they look for in employees. Culture fit, personality, empathy, etc.

~~~
nanijoe
This "culture fit" business is beginning to trend in a dangerous direction in
my opinion..where are we going to draw the line between the so-called "fit"
and outright discrimination? Can someone be explicit about what EXACTLY
culture fit refers to? Referring to a different hiring post from yesterday,
does my dislike for techno and alcohol make me un-hirable at companies where
it is their "culture" to play techno and drink beer? What if I can't curse and
swear like a sailor? Or if I can't hang out after work because I'd rather do
something else?

Hopefully, someone can provide a definition for "culture fit" that clears the
air on these questions.

~~~
daenz
I think "culture fit" is just another way of saying "if we like you or not."
It doesn't really matter how good you are, if you don't laugh at their jokes,
or they don't like the way you dress, or if they think you might be a threat
to their intelligence, you might as well be completely unqualified, because
you're not going to "fit." Do I sound jaded? :)

~~~
lachyg
I think you're spot on, but I definitely don't see anything wrong with it.

------
shaggyfrog
> 142 startups, including Quora and Dropbox, submitted over $30m in job
> offers.

That $30 million figure is useless. It tells us nothing. Why was it included?

Reminds me of the latest trend in news, "how much were people Twittering when
<person> made a political speech".

~~~
ernestipark
It doesn't seem that useless to me. Sure a better, less hyperbolic measure
would've been saying there were x number of offers given, but assuming ~$100K
salaries, that means there were about 300 job offers given out for 88
engineers.

~~~
michaelochurch
If these were elite software engineers and the compensation was $100,000 per
year, then either (a) the auction did not work, or (b) that is a fair market
value for engineers (which would mean that the auction worked, but the _raison
d'etre_ for it is suspect).

Engineering comp. is a long discussion, but I don't think the best engineers
are under-compensated so much as under-utilized. Companies pay appropriate to
the work people are doing, but staff engineers 3-5 years below what they're
usually capable of.

~~~
jorgeortiz85
I don't think he was claiming that $100k was a good or bad offer. He was doing
napkin math. If the offers were within the ballpark of $100k (a nice round
number), then there were about 300 offers. Which makes the given $30m number
not useless at all.

------
nugget
I always liked the story of the "Microsoft Five" who joined Facebook early on.
I would pay a little more if I could hire a small team of developers who
already had experience working together. I bet a team of 3 or 4 devs who
shopped their skills this way could demand a premium.

~~~
pdenya
I'm not familiar with that story but I know teams of copywriters & art
directors that do this currently in the ad industry to great success. I'm not
sure how well that would work for a startup though, seems like an easy way to
mess up the culture.

~~~
beambot
I wasn't familiar with the story either [1]. Cool idea.

[1] [http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-story-behind-the-
Microsoft-...](http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-story-behind-the-Microsoft-
Five-at-Facebook)

------
angelbob
So... Fully non-binding on both parties, is what I'm reading.

So we can expect, if we interview through there, that we'll see an
artificially inflated offer to get us to interview there, followed by a much
lower salary on the actual offer letter?

Not that I work for one of those companies anyway.

~~~
corin_
The best part is the way TC explained how it's non-binding:

> _"startups are required to honor their highest bid if follow up, in-person
> interviews are successful and they want to make a hire."_

~~~
waterlesscloud
The people they want to hire are fine with walking away from insulting tactics
like lowering the bid. Plus there would be serious reputational damage.

~~~
corin_
It just seems kind of irrelevant to say that they are "required to honor"
anything, given that they are entirely free to decide not to hire someone they
bid on, and that someone is entirely free to not accept any offer they make.

------
capkutay
Is signing in with AngelList really a requirement? Why must these new services
force you to leave your social footprint on their website..

~~~
timdorr
It's nothing social. It's piggybacking on the authenticity of AngelList and
their focus on startups. Who else has as good and reliable of a database? If
they opened up signups without some sort of verification, it would dilute the
usefulness of the product completely.

------
mtgx
I like this upside model of freelancing where the companies have to bid for
the freelancer's work. I wish there were more generic freelancing websites
that did this, though. Could be a start-up opportunity here.

------
rbucks
I know Doug and Matt really well and they are great guys. Fully support what
they're doing with DA.

As a co-founder of another tech company, I still get barraged by inbound tech
recruiters claiming they have the next great Ruby engineer for us. This
approach is much more transparent and fair from an employer perspective, and I
think it's friendly to developers too.

------
drivingmenuts
Aaaawesome.

Pretty much everything I've done in the last 8 years has been NDA'd.

I'm screwed.

~~~
23david
Well by this point most of those NDA's have probably expired. NDA's usually
have an expiration date within a few years... Not sure how legal it is to make
them arbitrary long.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
I've signed many NDAs and have yet to see one with an expiry date. I don't see
where there would be a legal issue making them unbounded. Do you think after 5
years, someone can quit coca-cola and divulge the secret recipe with impunity?

~~~
23david
As far as I know from various legal issues I've had to deal with, the general
issue with unbounded contracts is that 'forever' or 'lifetime' in legal terms
actually has a legal definition different from the common definition. So a
'lifetime guarantee' could actually be held to mean 20 years. Different states
handle this issue differently. Consult google or attorney friends for
specifics.

Real trade secret issues like Coca-Cola's secret formula are very very unusual
in the real world, and really shouldn't apply to most software if a company is
claiming that their entire code base is a trade secret. I can understand how
an incredible 5 line cooking recipe or encryption algorithm could possibly be
a trade secret, but it's ludicrous to extend that 'trade secret' protection to
an entire 300,000-line software code base. People who worked on trivial and
basic parts of a codebase should definitely be able to talk about it after a
reasonable amount of time. I believe that this is particularly true after a
product is discontinued or a company goes out of business.

NDA's should recognize this and founders should put reasonable time limits in
their contracts, even if their attorneys say that they should go for as much
protection as possible and try to protect all code/data/etc for 100 years.
When a software company discontinues a product, it would be great for them to
just release the source code and share with the community. Our laws regarding
trade secrets and copyright are outdated, and just because the law allows a
company to do something doesn't mean that they should do it.

I totally respect John Carmack for being a great example of putting old code
into the public domain. Carmack makes a point to release the source code of
his old game engines (see doom3 code review:
<http://fabiensanglard.net/doom3/index.php> ) once they're obsolete. I believe
that this has a huge impact, and serves to help educate and inspire the next
generation of game engine developers. An attorney or CFO could say that it's
irresponsible to do that, but I'm sure that the benefits that he gets
indirectly by doing this far outweigh any negative thing that has come out of
it.

------
citricsquid
> How do I know the offers I’m receiving are legitimate? Only pre-screened
> employers, who have raised outside funding, are allowed to bid.

huh, so a company has to have venture capital to be eligible?

~~~
kapilkale
Elsewhere it says that employers need to have raised money OR be profitable.

edit: elsewhere= TC article. "The company manually verifies employers via
AngelList and only lets approved startups, defined as having raised capital or
being profitable, browse engineer profiles."

~~~
Matt_Mickiewicz
The goal is to have only credible, vetted, companies browsing profiles who are
able to honour the offers they are making.

------
jstrate
>"DeveloperAuction says it is accepting applications from developers with
“notable GitHub profiles,” CS degrees from Stanford or MIT or currently
employed at Google, Zynga, Facebook, Twitter, Apple, Yelp and Square"

>"We help developers get paid what they’re worth through a competitive
process,"

Only if worth is exclusively dependent on Academic Pedigree. Or having worked
at a large corporation that relies on a consumer product. Seems to me it's a
pretty limited service.

------
gojomo
Mixed feelings. On one hand: Yay, developers capturing more of their surplus
value! On the other: winner's curse, mercenary cultures.

------
abuiles
This is a really neat idea, I think this market still can be disrupted in many
ways, trying to flip the coin like they do is certainly one. I'm kind of
excited with this since I'm also working on an idea related with changing the
way in which recruiting works, this proves we are right and that the jobs
market needs a change.

------
jason_adleberg
10-15% of first year salary sounds like a laughably high commission. Surely it
can't cost >$5K to find a good coder... Frankly, I don't see why it should
cost more than 1K, tops, to find an excellent, excellent coder...

~~~
billpaetzke
I have met recruiters that ask for 33% of first year salary. And I'm guessing
that many settle for 15-25%.

------
sanxiyn
Agents for all: [http://www.overcomingbias.com/2012/08/why-not-agents-for-
all...](http://www.overcomingbias.com/2012/08/why-not-agents-for-all.html)

------
LukeRB
This is a pretty revolutionary idea is applicable to more than developers. It
would be great to see a similar concept/site be developed for UX/UI designers…

~~~
Matt_Mickiewicz
We're allowing UX/UI designers into the system, despite our name. Huge, huge
unmet demand from the employers that we have in our database. Might have to
rebrand to be more all encompassing :)

Just make sure you include a portfolio of your work with your application.

------
tejaswiy
So what's the current average pay for someone that gets an offer using this
auction? Any stats?

------
chamza
Great idea, hoping they open this up to UI/UX designers in the near future.

~~~
Matt_Mickiewicz
Yep. Despite our name, we're accepting UX/UI designers who are based in major
cities (Denver/Boulder, NYC, SF Bay Area, NYC, Boston).

------
Uchikoma
I assume the get paid what they are perceived to be worth.

------
grep
did they make 15% of the $30M?

~~~
NonEUCitizen
From their web page, they only make money if there is a hire:

<http://developerauction.com/for_employers> "If you end up hiring a candidate
within 6 months of viewing their profile, we will invoice you..."

Note the phrasing "142 startups... submitted over $30m in job offers." Sounds
like if company A bids $200K for SuperNerd, and company B bids $250K for
SuperNerd, they'd count that as $450K of submitted bids. SuperNerd may have
declined both offers, so income might be zero. See the "Vanity Metrics"
section of this article (but ignore its title):

<http://nickoneill.com/silicon-valley-is-filled-with-liars/>

~~~
grep
Once you sign up, they tell you about the "15% feee", that is not public in
the website.

~~~
NonEUCitizen
It's public here:

<http://developerauction.com/for_employers>

------
michaelochurch
Neat concept, but the exclusivity douched it up bad and I'd short-sell it
because of that. In the age of the Internet, you have to find a way to create
exclusivity that isn't elitist. Hacker News is an exclusive community (the
people we don't want here find technology boring) but not elitist.

By the way, I think you should limit your field to people who _would never
work for_ Zynga, not people who currently work there.

~~~
veyron
It's adverse selection: the type of people who would use this service are
probably not the people you want working for your startup. The really
successful people would be picked off in other ways (not actively recruiting)
so you are left with the B and C players (which ironically are a dime a dozen)

~~~
michaelochurch
They have a hard problem. Looking for a job makes you less attractive, and
there are a lot of people on the market who aren't qualified at all (non-
Fizzbuzzers). They want to have only desirable applicants, which means they
need to control quality (otherwise they'll get spammed) and the intention
behind the exclusivity is rate-limiting, which makes a lot of sense, but I
think they douched it up by focusing on the wrong things (school and company
affiliation). That's especially bad now with all the MBA carpetbaggers in
tech. Focusing on degrees and prestigious companies makes you (at least seem
like) the wrong kind of people.

I would have made it Silicon Valley only: either you live there, or you'll
move there. (I'm in New York, so it might seem unusual that I'm suggesting
excluding my city, but you need to limit inflow and that's the best way to do
it, because job markets are pretty local. You add cities once you have
traction and are looking to scale.)

Then I would have partnered with a company like Kaggle in order to get access
to people who can actually code. I've met a lot of mediocrities with
prestigious resumes. One of the _biggest problems_ with hiring is the number
of people who have established a great connections <-> great jobs loop but
don't know anything.

~~~
veyron
"but I think they douched it up by focusing on the wrong things (school and
company affiliation). "

They focused on the right thing. The target audience isn't the startup that
cares about getting the best people, just the ones with the best pedigrees.
This would be perfect in finance.

