
Thinking on Your Feet - bookofjoe
https://aeon.co/essays/dont-just-do-it-think-it-too-on-learning-with-gilbert-ryle
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DisruptiveDave
Over the past few months I've been studying mushin (no mind) with the goal of
understanding the concept better, and possibly laying out proactive steps one
can take to put themselves in a position to experience mushin. I'm about 70%
through all the readings (Unfettered Mind, Zen in the Art of Archery, Kakusei-
Mushin, some Alan Watts videos on the subject, some Zen Koan videos, and
more).

So far, it's very evident that the feeling of being in a "flow state" or "just
doing it" is not something that simply happens out of nowhere. A precursor to
that mind state is rigorous training and practice. Zen in the Art of Archery
is a great read for getting a grasp on this concept. Basically, your goal is
to perform without any thought, having a clear mind without any judgments or
intentions, to the point in which you become one with the action/goal (anyone
who has played sports may have experienced those games in which you almost
black out during a great scoring streak, not even recognizing what's happening
in the moment). BUT, to get to that point, you need to learn all the proper
movements and formations and build muscle memory, which requires a ton of
intentional thought and analysis. Basically, you need to learn as a stepping
stone to unlearning.

~~~
tiku
You should read the book "Flow" by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, titled: Flow: The
Psychology of Optimal Experience.

He claims that Flow is (more easily) achieved when Skill level and Challenge
level are both very high.

~~~
bumby
If I remember correctly, it's not that the skill level needs to be high, but
that the task has to be difficult enough to be challenging without being so
difficult as to be daunting.

So you can still reach a flow state as a low-skill person as long as you flirt
with the limits to your own skill level without getting frustrated (i.e. being
highly skilled is not necessarily a prerequisite to be fully engrossed and
challenged).

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michelpp
25 years ago I thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail, and hikers there have a
saying, "It takes more head than heel". I didn't believe it at first, until I
met several thru-hikers over the age of 60, hiking 15+ miles a day, carrying
50+ pounds of gear, up and down over a trail designed intentionally to go
valley to summit to valley to summit.

After a few weeks, I noticed that I was no longer looking at the ground. At
least, not the ground right in front of my feet. My mind was able to see the
terrain several yards ahead, and subconsciously my feet would know where the
rocks are. This became an essential skill upon entering Pennsylvania, where
the AT is more boulder field than trail. I started to call it "Radar feet".

Edit: it was 25 years ago... sheesh my memory. About two years before I heard
about an obscure programming language called Python...

~~~
pavedwalden
That reminds me of this very cool video from a gaze-tracking study of someone
walking on rough terrain:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/8bzdr8/gaz...](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/8bzdr8/gaze_and_foot_placement_when_walking_over_rough/)

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DrOctagon
The featured runner's (Yuki Kawauchi) highest profile victory was the 2018
Boston Marathon. He and his agent put together an excellent strategy to take
advantage of the horrible conditions to nullify his much faster opponents.

Great read on this here: [http://japanrunningnews.blogspot.com/2018/04/how-it-
happened...](http://japanrunningnews.blogspot.com/2018/04/how-it-
happened.html)

~~~
sevensor
Very compelling article, and a strong counter to the idea that the no-mind
state is void of intelligence. If anything, the mind of the master is more
active than ever, but so thoroughly focused on execution that the meta-level
has disappeard. There's no thinking about the thought process, no second
guessing, none of the games the mind plays with itself. Only engagement with
action so deep that one feels like "the hand of fate."

~~~
udkl
I enjoyed your comment and it was very prosaic. Thank you for writing it.

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ddxxdd
After reading about half of this article, I have two major thoughts:

1\. It's interesting that a Japanese scientist would hypothesize that a high-
performing athlete would be considered an "intellectual", since the Japanese
word for "genius" can describe highly talented athletes as well as intelligent
nerds. Sapir–Whorf in action?

2\. I've seen strong evidence that "overthinking" athletic performance is
negative; taking brainpower away from the subconscious and placing it in the
frontal lobe is empirically proven to cause basketball players to miss shots
and hurdlers to trip and fall.

~~~
dorfsmay
Over thinking, or even just thinking before I learn with my body has always
given me problems with physical activity, because I tend to create a bad
mental model that I have to unlearn. This has slowed me down the most trying
to learn how to fly gliders, and skiing.

One thing I've noticed is that people like myself explain physical activities
with words, while people who don't have this issue explain by moving their
hands and bodies.

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GreaterFool
This echos my own experience over past couple of months. Deliberate
intellectual approach and introspection. I improved a lot when I started doing
that. However, when I try to talk about it with my friends and trainers, they
dismiss it. I don't expect them to have the answers, but they're not
particularly willing to engage in conversation either. They don't understand
what I'm talking about. The advice I always get "this is different, you have
to feel it". Repeat repeat repeat until you get it. That never worked for me.
Or rather, I work hard but the benefits are slim. I feel like I've been
getting 30% gains from the training while I could be getting 80%.

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mmta
This reminds me of the book Peak by Anders Erricsson who observed that the
right kind of practice carried out over a sufficient period of time can lead
to extraordinary improvement.

Interestingly, it seems to work for both physical and mental abilities and
importantly at any age (although some abilities are easier to develop at a
young age)

The kind of practice is critical -- he calls it "deliberate practice" \-- a
focused practice that is at the limit of one's abilities and by pushing near
the limit, it eventually becomes the new norm and a new limit is developed
further beyond.

By continuously iterating on this process, people have been able to develop
skills previously unheard of. Fascinating book, thoroughly recommend it.

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jvln
Another runner - marathon world record holder - Eliud Kipchoge. “If you want
to break through, your mind should be able to control your body,” he said.
“Your mind should be a part of your fitness.” As I see it - you have to
believe yourself unconditionally.

[https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a27225884/kipchoge-is-
read...](https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a27225884/kipchoge-is-ready-to-
defend-his-london-title/)

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unkulunkulu
I’m currently reading Josh Waitzkin’s The Art of Learning and I think this
question of thinking, intuition, practice and flow and putting it all together
is explored there at a great length, can totally recommend it if you’re
interested in the topic.

~~~
agumonkey
Great. I spent a few years learning electronics then materials of all kinds on
my own. It felt as weird as interesting. This comes at the right time.

~~~
asar
I'm on a similar journey right now, learning about electronics and materials
on my own. Can you recommend any books or courses? Or how did you learn?

~~~
agumonkey
The book of youtube.[0]

I read the first third of Tony Kuphaldt books on electronics (DC, Kirschoff
laws up to thevenin, a bit of AC too), very nice as it's easy, not too fuzzy
and not too concise.

I'm starting Griffiths electrodynamics because I feel I can swallow more
theory.

Just yesterday I finally made a nichrome wire ring to cut non-scored glass
bottles. Super impressive to manipulate matter like that.

[0] I'm not in a study friendly environment right now, so watching people do
simple stuff on video was my main source of motivation and inspiration. I wish
I can finally go full circle with more theory.

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resiros
The author describes two school of thoughts on how athletes should perform:
the first encourage conscious thinking about their action, while a second
encourages the unconscious, flow-like practice. I think the answer lies in
between.

One way to look at the problem is through Kahneman's system 1 and system 2
dualism: Some tasks are better done with system 1; the fast, instinctive,
unconscious mode of thinking. An example would be optimizing your oxygen
consumption while running or hitting a topspin forehand in Tennis. Other
tasks, like planning your running strategy are better done by System 2, the
slower, deliberative mode of thinking. The trick for performing is to use the
right system for the right problem.

Personally, I experience this in two very different fields: Tennis and coding.
In tennis, whenever I start thinking two much about my strokes, trying to
consciously change them, the strokes' quality deteriorate. Similarly, whenever
I play a match and lose myself in the zone while forgetting to consciously
think about my strategy, about the deficits of my partner and myself, I start
losing. Switching back and forth between these two modes is where I reach my
potential. The same applies in coding. To work best, I need both the flow, but
with pauses here and there to consciously think about the big picture.

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beat
To maybe make this more relatable, think about typing. How much do you type?
How much do you think about it? Do you use your right thumb on the spacebar,
the left thumb, or both? Why do you do it that way? Do you think you could
type faster if you changed that?

It's these last questions that drive excellence in physical technique. Picking
out tiny details in how we do things, then starting by consciously adjusting
our technique, until it becomes unconscious.

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hosh
I am not sure I agree with all of what the author states here.

The "self-learning" is what I do myself when I train in martial arts, with
computer programming, and with any number of skills. I had my start with a
martial art teacher for a few years, and now, I am going through a long stint
of solo practice, as I completely rebuild how my body moves. My programming
skills were self-taught.

However, wu-wei is not simply "just do it". There is a kind of natural,
effortless, spontaneity that meditators, psychonauts, and others who have peak
experiences might tap into from time to time. Even "just do it" has a subtle
kind of interfering.

The thing is, it's the "self-learning" that eventually bears fruit when
someone enters wu-wei, as it pertains to skill. The deliberate effort at self-
learning and cultivation greatly expands the possible actions one can take
when one stops interfering with themselves.

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keyle
Interesting article. I kept reading hoping it would get to a strong conclusion
or some clear definition, but just like athletes can't explain it, its
conclusion was vague and all over the place.

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asar
Interesting read, but kinda sad that the runner in question was not
interviewed for this piece. I think the points made are kinda vague and lack
good examples to make a stronger case for this thesis.

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adolph
_They [the runners] are suffused with the Daoist ideal of wu-wei that sees
effortlessness as the epitome of human action_

I found Edward Slingerland’s “Trying Not to Try” very interesting in terms of
making connections between classical Chinese philosophy and contemporary
US/western thought about neuroscience.

[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18050134-trying-not-
to-t...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18050134-trying-not-to-try)

~~~
laughingman2
On a similar vein, "Kenneth Stanley: Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned: The Myth
of the Objective".

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXQPL9GooyI&app=desktop](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXQPL9GooyI&app=desktop)

Kenneth leads the AI research in Uber. He had worked on Evolutionary
strategies for machine learning, artificial Life etc.

