
How to buy clothes that are built to last - bookofjoe
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/climate/sustainable-clothing.html
======
ben7799
Throwing 75lbs of clothes away in a year blows me away at first glance. I hate
shopping for clothes & buying them, I guess I naturally buy stuff built to
last and I'm really conservative with fashion I guess. (Which is probably more
common for guys).

The item that drives me nuts with disposability at the moment is sneakers. I
walk & work out a lot and I'm finding a lot of the running/training type shoes
wear out in 3-4 months, the sole is shot but the uppers are totally fine. I'm
trying to find more durable shoes to wear for casual wear & walking that
actually last.

Stuff that I can get 10 years out of makes me happy. I've successfully done
that with stuff like boots & winter coats/mountaineering jackets. Gore Tex has
a lot of competitors these days, Gore Tex stuff is really expensive cause of
the standards they apply to licensees.. Most of the competing products are
cheaper because they don't put as many requirements on the clothing designer.
But almost anything I have bought that is a Gore Tex outerwear garment will
easily go 10 years which makes it a huge bargain over other stuff.

~~~
rootusrootus
I wouldn't be all that surprised to find out I throw out 75lbs of clothes a
year. Just shirts. Everything else lasts a long time, but dammit I have an
uncanny ability to get grease spots on the front of my cotton shirts. I
finally just started buying them cheap in bulk. I also don't really throw them
away directly, I recycle them into rags first, but the end result is the same.
I sometimes only get to wear a shirt two or three times before it's ruined.

Maybe I need to wear a full-time bib.

~~~
leguminous
Grease spots from food? I can usually get those out in the wash. I apply
detergent directly to the spot and rub it in a bit. Then I let it sit for a
while (a few hours, overnight, whatever) before putting it into the wash like
normal.

Modern detergents are amazing. I once spilled cooking oil directly onto some
cotton shorts and they came out fine.

~~~
simtel20
For a long time, I have taken the approach of getting up from the table and
going to the sink and applying soap vigorously to an oil spot as soon as I
notice I've gotten it on my clothes. It seems to me that the sooner the soap
or detergent manages to get in contact with the oils, the less time they have
to set, and the better the chance that a subsequent wash will remove all trace
of my overenthusiastic eating.

------
snowwrestler
The clothing brand I've had the best experience with in terms of longevity is
Patagonia. I have some items that are passing the 20-year mark now, things I
wear every year like Hawaiian shirts in the summer and fleece gloves and
insulated jackets in the winter. In the few instances where a piece has failed
sooner than I expected, they repaired or replaced it.

In terms of longevity in outerwear, one of things I look for is nylon fabric.
A lot of brands (including Patagonia) are using polyester more for jackets,
bathing suits, etc. There are some advantages, like it holds DWR treatments
better, and can be made with recycled plastic. But in terms of durability
there is no comparison; nylon is just tougher gram for gram.

For socks, wool hiking-style socks seem to last well for me. By hiking-style,
I mean the socks have different "zones" of thickness, usually thicker on the
sole and heel, thinner across the top and ankle. I have Wigwam hiking socks
and Smartwool dress socks have lasted well; in fact I'm having trouble
remembering if any of them have actually worn out. Mostly they just get
slightly thinner over time. I have tried a bunch of cotton socks, and Gold Toe
seemed the most durable, but I still like the wool padded style better.

~~~
Alupis
Kind of turned off by their front-and-center political advert on the home page
though[1]

I mean, regardless of where you stand on this particular pet issue... it's not
what I came to their site for! I came there to look at their clothing...
instead I got a face-full of politics. Why do that???

Some of you will support this particular cause - but what if it were something
you don't support? Right to life, build a wall, etc... Would that change your
impression?

Keep the politics out of your business - in particular - keep it off your home
page!

[1] [https://www.patagonia.com/home/](https://www.patagonia.com/home/)

~~~
JohnJamesRambo
The owner of Patagonia cares about environmental issues. I’m sorry that
bothers you. He’s not a conglomerate with a board afraid of offending someone.
But he has a record of putting his money and time where his mouth is. He was a
world renowned climber and original dirtbag. The earth is important to him.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvon_Chouinard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvon_Chouinard)

[https://www.earth.com/news/chile-new-national-
parks/](https://www.earth.com/news/chile-new-national-parks/)

~~~
Alupis
The earth can be important to him, and he can "put his money where his mouth
is" without placing politics on his webstore's home page.

Like I said - if it was some issue that wasn't your kind of politics, it would
be a turnoff to see this when you're just trying to do some shopping.

It's a turnoff even if it is your kind of politics - I was interested in their
clothing. Now I'll shop someplace else.

------
watersb
I lived in Florida for a couple of years; morbid to consider but of my
grandparents' generation, many migrate south and end up there. So there was an
incredible array of like-new mens' clothing sold at huge second-hand shops. I
have a collection of silk, short-sleeve button down shirts, wool blend pants
and coats.

In one case, I purchased a new, custom tailored double-breasted linen suit for
ten cents. It was far too small for me, but I gave it a young high-school
student: he had never owned a suit.

Another fun hobby of mine was to dress up in these wool suits, go and walk
dogs or pick up trash in our local park.

Turns out, wool could handle the heat. I overheat easily, but I was fine. The
clothes usually did not need laundering. Just hang them up with enough air.

At the time, these clothes cost a fraction of new jeans and t-shirts or active
wear. And they held up fine. Some of the silk shirts are starting to shred,
but as they cost me a quarter each is no problem.

The wool suits will last longer than I will. Some of them more than 50 years
old.

------
technotarek
Two years ago I vowed to only buy vintage clothing (with exceptions for under
garments, shoes and concert swag). Two years later, I haven't bought any
clothes! The problem is that vintage clothing for men is a really bad shopping
experience, at least in DC. Few retail stores and the ones that do exist only
seem to have clothes from a groovy era or a less fashionable, probably
slightly older set. (I'm in my 40s. I like my clothes on the slimmer side.)
The vintage option is so much more possible for women.

~~~
onemoresoop
I think more and more people realized vintage clothes are actually better
quality and the higher demand sent the prices up. You can still get lucky in
some thriftstores though..

------
PhantomGremlin
The article didn't spend a lot of time discussing the type of washing machine
used. But in my experience that makes a big difference.

Front loading machines seem to be quite gentle on clothes. Perhaps because
they don't use an agitator? My mostly 100% cotton clothing lasts for years and
years. My family is tired of seeing me in the same clothes.

But maybe another big difference is between men's and women's clothing. The
women's stuff feels very lightweight, very delicate. I'm not surprised that it
doesn't hold up as well as men's.

And then there's fashion. My girls buy jeans that start out with holes in
them. How long can that last? In contrast, by the time my jeans have holes in
them they are definitely worn out.

~~~
benj111
I find its the drier actually.

Prior to having a dryer I hadn't thrown out a t shirt due to collars and stuff
wearing out, after getting the dryer they just fall to bits after a few years.

~~~
davidw
Everyone hang dries their clothes in Italy, and we kept doing that when we
moved to the US. It definitely is a win-win in terms of making clothes last
longer and using less energy.

~~~
benj111
Yeah, unfortunately England, in winter, isnt really conducive to drying
clothes outside.

~~~
davidw
Neither is a lot of Italy, nor Bend, Oregon where I live. In winter, you put
the drying rack next to a radiator or heating vent or whatever, inside.

~~~
benj111
Yeah, but then you get damp, and mold, been there, done that.

~~~
mikekchar
Wash more often. If you wash every day or two, the amount of water in your
clothes will not be super significant. If you wash once or twice a week, then
your relative humidity will spike. You can buy super efficient washers, so
power consumption is not really an issue (especially in comparison to using a
drier). The other thing you can do is to "change the air" in your house every
once in a while, especially in winter. Just open the windows and let it
breathe. Letting the cold air in reduces the water carrying capacity of the
air. When you heat it back up, the relative humidity drops.

I know these kinds of things are not common in the UK, but when my wife and I
lived in England for 2 years, that's what we did and it works very well.

------
wallacoloo
> “If it doesn't feel comfortable,” said Dr. Ritch, “you’re going to dispose
> of it more quickly.”

Or for me, after every shirt I try on feels uncomfortable against my neck, I
lose hope and just quit shopping for clothes. It solves the waste problem, but
I wish I could find a way to solve the problem of fabric distracting me as it
weighs or rubs against my skin throughout the day. Maybe nudist camps are the
real answer here.

~~~
css
Explore non-cotton and non-wool materials: modals, rayons, synthetics, etc

------
kashyapc
There was a very interesting thread on this topic here some weeks ago [991
points; 287 comments]:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20503194](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20503194)
— "How to assess the quality of garments (2014)"

~~~
bookofjoe
I posted that one too ;-)

~~~
kashyapc
Ah, missed that detail. Nice work :-)

------
dredmorbius
Workwear brands (Carhartt, Duluth Trading, Dickies, Doc Martin, etc.) and some
outdoor wear brands provide high quality and durability. If that's what you're
interested in, and you've reached the point at which looking hip isn't your
thing, and don't care to comb through piles of vintage items looking for a
reasonable fit and style, you'll have options.

Aside from fast (tranlation: fall-apart) fashion, my major gripe over the past
decade has been a transition to slim styles which offer very little latitude
for different body shapes, and frankly feel tremendously uncomfortable in a
full day's wear. You'll pay a slight premium, but generally less than
mainstream brands.

A few classic items can offer many years of excellent wear without appearing
dated.

The changes to mainstream clothing have lost my patronage at any number of
stores. And the practices described in this NYT piece strike me as both alien
and revolting.

~~~
ShteiLoups
I can't agree more concerning the move towards 'slim' bodies.

I can't fit into the majority of popular jeans brands for the lowly crime of
playing hockey as a youth, and now having larger than average legs and glutes.

------
_hardwaregeek
I'm not entirely sure the best solution is to educate people on buying quality
clothes. While that is important, I suspect that consumption isn't just due to
shitty clothes wearing out too soon. It's probably due to our culture of
fashion trends and constant consumption and the "keeping up with the Joneses".
If you go on fashion subreddits, you'll hear people talk about how you need to
buy long lasting clothes, inevitably quoting that tired Terry Pratchett
segment on boots^[1]. Except these same people have 10 pairs of long lasting
boots!

I don't know the answer because honestly, I _do_ like buying new clothes. I
_do_ like changing how I look. I _do_ like looking good. And I'm far from
alone in this regard. Maybe instead of blaming the consumer, there should be
some regulation on manufacturing clothing? Or some sort of carbon/pollution
tax? A cynical take on this is that fast fashion companies are attempting to
foist the blame onto the consumer, when really they're preying off a universal
desire to look pretty and polluting the environment in the process. We should
of course educate people on the impact of their choices. But telling people to
stop buying stuff to make them look pretty is going against a very basic, very
fundamental desire.

[1]: [https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/72745-the-reason-that-
the-r...](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/72745-the-reason-that-the-rich-
were-so-rich-vimes-reasoned)

~~~
munificent
_> I do like buying new clothes. I do like changing how I look. I do like
looking good. And I'm far from alone in this regard._

I like eating cheesecake until I'm stuffed with it, but I don't because it's
not good for me. Liking something isn't sufficient justification for doing it.
Maturity means knowing when to heed your impulses and when not to.

I understand that it's hard to scale that philosophy and solve a systemic
problem, but I don't think we should just blindly accept that people are gonna
do what they feel all the time.

That desire to change how you look partially comes from a cultural value.
You're surrounded by people doing that and showing you them doing it, and
talking about how great it is. Change that culture, and I bet that desire
would evaporate.

~~~
_hardwaregeek
I agree that we should try to change the culture. But solely depending on
having people act better isn't going to be enough. Especially since changing
the culture of fashion would mean fighting celebrity culture, people's
ingrained obsession with fashion and basically the entire concept of sex
appeal.

To take your example of cheesecake, it's perfectly fine to have a personal
policy of self control. But if you extend that to the general population, you
miss a few things. For one, perhaps there's a reason people are eating so
poorly, such as food deserts^[1] or simply lack of time or money. Second,
perhaps the fast food companies are acting in particular ways that can be
deemed unethical. Personally I find the ways in which fast food companies
market to children and feed on what's essentially a sugar and fat addiction
pretty despicable and an underhanded tactic. But that's just me.

Indeed blaming the consumer is a pretty common tactic. Keep America Beautiful
is a famous example. The entire campaign was an attempt to foist the blame
onto people littering instead of, y'know, the corporations producing millions
of disposable items^[2]. And yes, stopping littering was a good goal. But it
also distracts from the underlying problem: why are we allowing these
disposable goods to be produced?

With clothing we should be asking a similar question. Why are we allowing such
terrible industrial practices, from the pollution to the child labor?

[1]: [http://americannutritionassociation.org/newsletter/usda-
defi...](http://americannutritionassociation.org/newsletter/usda-defines-food-
deserts) [2]: [https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-
perspec...](https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-
indian-crying-environment-ads-pollution-1123-20171113-story.html)

------
dx87
I normally buy clothes that are targeted towards blue collar workers since
they are typically designed to be more resistent to wear and tear, at the
expense of not looking very stylish. Since I work a desk job, they last a long
time. My boss says I dress like a farmer (or fisherman in the summer), but I
also only have to replace old clothes every 3-4 years when they get to worn
out, and even then they just get demoted to yardwork clothes.

------
wizardforhire
If anyone wants a lead on an over built street wear brand here you go [1]

It was started by this precocious production engineer from Montana who found
themselves working their way through Nike and then leaving to make clothes by
hand that are the most over built clothes I’ve ever found. All of the seems
are done with heavy duty upholstery threads and the fabrics are the heaviest
weights that still are comfortable. I’ve never encountered anything like it.
Also hand made in America if that maters to ya.

[1]
[https://lastheavy.com/shop?category=shirts](https://lastheavy.com/shop?category=shirts)

~~~
hellisothers
That website tho...

~~~
audiometry
...yeah, against all odds, I don't think an $80 white t-shirt is a great
option, regardless of how long it will hold together.

------
0db532a0
I have a large set of American Apparel Hammer t-shirts that I bought about
five years ago. I wear them every day. I bought a few more once I heard they
were going to the dogs, but the quality had dropped dramatically.

It's a big shame that they went to the dogs, as I've been unable to find any
other t-shirts since which match the following criteria:

1\. Heaviness of fabric 2\. Generous, stylish cut (i.e. not skinny as fuck)
3\. Well-sewn 4\. Retains colour even after five years 5\. 100% cotton:
retains shape even after five years

If anyone can make a recommendation that is available in the E.U., I would
greatly appreciate it. In before Hanes Beefy-T. They do not match up.

I've solved the socks and shoes part of the equation. Sadly, I have yet to
solve the trousers part of the equation. I recently had to resort to getting
vintage Levi's jeans from the 80s. It was impossible to find anything with a
pure enough fabric, generous enough fit and which was heavy enough for a
reasonable price.

Socks: I buy from the Falke Family series. 94% cotton, quality fabric,
comfortable and long-lasting. Not made from sweaty, 50% synthetic crap.

Trainers/Sneakers: USA-made New Balance 990. Comfortable. I managed to get
nearly a year of near-daily use out of them. Expensive compared to most other
trainers, but well worth it given how quickly similar shoes disintegrate.

~~~
gao8a
I have found the Uniqlo T shirts to be quite good quality.

~~~
whenchamenia
Quality maybe, but not durable imho.

~~~
0db532a0
Got any alternative suggestions?

------
ciconia
Why buy new clothes at all? Good, clean, used clothes can be found _anywhere_
if you care to look around a bit. They're also much cheaper, and if you don't
need them anymore you can either sell them, pass them to your family or
neighbours, or donate them to a charity.

Last year we bought all of our summer clothes used. I got myself 3 pairs of
Levis as good as new for 10€. I really don't get why clothes _have_ to be
bought new.

~~~
non-entity
Unfortunately, I rarely find new clothes that fit me well, let alone used.

------
wodenokoto
I go through a few pairs of H&M / Uniqlo jeans a year, because they simply
wear out. I always buy the same look and I kinda wish I didn't have to buy
them so often.

------
onemoresoop
The same goes for shoes. A good pair of shoes is expensive but durable and
serviceable: it is work taking them periodically to a shoe repair shop. A good
pair of shoes takes the shape of your foot after some wearing and could last
even 10 years.

Modern shoes are designed to quick obsolescence, for example the sole wears
and cannot be replaced or the shoe is so cheaply made that it is not worth
fixing.

------
jmpman
If we didn’t mix cotton with synthetics, we could compost those items. There
should be a law for such things.

~~~
whenchamenia
The book of Leviticus forbids the mixing of fibers in a garmet, but then again
it does the same for homosexuality. _shrug_

------
zhdc1
I've had several items with near daily use that have lasted me well over seven
years.

If you want to build a solid, long lasting wardrobe, you can't go wrong with
the following:

Boots: Redwing Iron Rangers

Jeans: Levi 501stf or anything unsanfordized that's heavier than about 11oz

Shirts: Anything 2ply 100% cotton

~~~
itbeho
I have a lot of miles on my Iron Rangers. Best boots I've ever owned. They are
both comfortable and durable, which is a rare thing in my experience.

~~~
zhdc1
It's hard to kill them. I'm glad to see that they're getting a second (third?)
life because of their durability - I bought mine on deep discount after the
Made in America/logger clothes trend went away around 2011 or 2012 and they
were considered to be clown shoes (because of the toe cap) compared to the
1000 Mile and other boots.

They've gotten crazy expensive again - it's a good thing that mine are going
on eight years with little signs of needing to be replaced.

------
leashless
Mattereum is working on this problem. The idea is to use the blockchain to
make really detailed records about physical objects, and track their
performance across a number of owners - from design to disposal, using the
Ethereum blockchain to bring all the data together. We're starting with
collectibles (higher values, better margins) working with William Shatner.

[https://medium.com/humanizing-the-singularity/how-post-
indus...](https://medium.com/humanizing-the-singularity/how-post-industrial-
capitalism-and-a-new-type-of-big-data-will-save-the-planet-6574b1d75bf6) this
blog post digs into the model in a lot more detail, and takes you through our
prototype.

------
advarckcal
®®®,@1,Was XML

------
murgindrag
I find the opposite. To build a personal brand, it's helpful to look very
similar.

Steve Jobs and black turtlenecks.

I want audiences to recognize me and connect me from viewing to viewing.

------
new_realist
Why would I want clothes to last until they look dated and unfashionable?

~~~
DavideNL
To state an obvious reason: because the "throwaway society" is killing our
planet and humans along with it.

Also it would cost you less money to buy better quality clothes in the long
run.

~~~
jgeada
Terry Pratchett had an interesting spin on that:
[https://www.thebillfold.com/2015/03/to-terry-pratchett-
who-g...](https://www.thebillfold.com/2015/03/to-terry-pratchett-who-gave-us-
sam-vimes-boots-theory-of-socioeconomic-unfairness/)

And yes, I've noticed that you do save money buying better made clothes that
don't disintegrate in one season of wear.

