

Sincere Apologies to Paul Graham and the Y Combinator Team (from the Seattle Founder's Co-op) - brfox
http://crashdev.blogspot.com/2008/04/sincere-apologies-to-paul-graham-and-y.html

======
pg
This was nice of them. It didn't bother us too much. We were indignant the
first time someone copied our application form, but at least these guys
admitted it.

~~~
brlewis
Additionally, the obsolete question(s) on their application (no longer present
on YC applications) were not their fault. A bug has been filed with
y2combinator: <http://y2combinator.com/>

------
bouncingsoul
What really bothers me about YC-clones copying the application form is how
little it shows the group has thought about the program they're starting.

How is it possible that PG nailed down exactly what every seed investor would
ever want to know about startup founders seeking funding? Don't these
investors have _any_ other questions? Do they actually call people _hackers_
in real life? Is a couple sentences about each founder the maximum all
investors are capable of reading?

So I'm left wondering if the lack of thought that went into the application
carries over into the rest of the program.

~~~
davidw
You think an _application form_ indicates thought about the program? They're
just going to copy a few forms and start throwing thousands of dollars at
people... Right...

If this were a statically typed conversation, it would have been impossible to
make a mountain from this molehill.

~~~
bouncingsoul
I don't understand your comment. Could you clarify?

~~~
davidw
1) My point was that these people have decided to invest hundreds of thousands
of dollars. Saying they "haven't thought about it" because of an application
form seems to be jumping to conclusions.

2) It's a programming language joke. MoleHillFactory (a Haskell example would
be better, but I don't know it) wouldn't be able to return objects of type
Mountain. Maybe it's not funny, but I kind of liked it:-)

~~~
bouncingsoul
I still think it's reasonable to think the application form reflects thought
put into the program. If I showed up shitfaced to a job interview it would be
reasonable for the interviewers to wonder if I took it seriously. I may take
it completely seriously, but I would understand if my behavior seeded doubt.

Your argument doesn't really sway me: I'm judging the program based on
something real; you're judging it based on what must _obviously_ be the case.

I don't completely write-off a YC-clone just because they put zero thought
into the application form. But it _does_ alter my impression.

I disagree with your static typing argument too. "Mountain out of a molehill"
means making a bigger deal out of something than it is. Which means both
things could be class Mound, just with different values. So in this case
static typing wouldn't have saved the day ;-)

------
johnrob
I'd just like to mention that, if YC clones use the same application forms, it
does make life easier for the applicants...

~~~
colellm
A lot of the applications for the yc like programs are similar (ex.
launchboxdigital), which, I agree, does make it easier to apply to multiple
programs.

------
gruseom
_I've written many times [...] so I was caught by surprise_

Reading that, it occurred to me that one of the gotchas here is the
statelessness of the web. "Statelessness" isn't quite what I mean.
"Contextlessness" might be better. URLs are pointers that jump directly to
content that mostly gets consumed atomically, without reference to anything
else the author has said/done. Of course if readers want context they have
ample opportunity to explore: look at what else is on the site, google the
sources and so on. But most won't. (I often do, but I didn't this time.) I
wonder if one way to mitigate this is to make content more self-describing.

~~~
ecommercematt
Do you have ideas on how to do that?

~~~
gruseom
Nothing well-formed; I've hardly thought about it. By the way, I didn't mean
"self-describing" in any technical sense (like the way Alan Kay might use the
phrase - though that is super cool). What I mean is, if there's context that's
essential to understanding what you're saying on page X, maybe you should
include it in X, or at least a noticeable link to it. Even at the cost of some
duplication.

For example, would it have changed your perception of the Founders Co-op
application if it had, at the bottom, a link to a FAQ like "Isn't this just
like YC" or even "How is this different from other early-stage funds"?

------
brfox
Well, I'm very glad that he responded so quickly. I was so excited to see
something sort of like YC in Seattle but I was worried about the whole very-
similar-application thing. I am glad to hear that he just really admires the
YC program and is going to fix up the application.

------
huherto
Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

~~~
lux
Very true. I doubt PG and co were losing sleep over a copied application form
;) They're probably watching their competition with much interest. It's not
like there's room for only one after all.

~~~
pg
The only thing I really worry about is that competitors will use artificial
deadlines to panic founders into taking offers from them before they've
interviewed with us. 100% of the clones make decisions before we even do
interviews, probably not by coincidence. Last year when they made offers to
groups that had also been invited to interviews with us, they tried to
pressure them into accepting before they'd heard from us. I assume they'll do
that again. That makes me mad, I admit. It seems such a nasty thing to do to a
group of young founders.

~~~
freax
> _Last year when they made offers to groups that had also been invited to
> interviews with us, they tried to pressure them into accepting before they'd
> heard from us. I assume they'll do that again. That makes me mad, I admit.
> It seems such a nasty thing to do to a group of young founders._

Wait a minute, aren't you the guy who gives them 5 minutes to accept once you
make your offer?

If they did their interviews/acceptance AFTER you, it would be the same
situation with YOU pressuring founders before they'd heard back from anyone
else!

Pot. Kettle. If you really care about the founders then you all need to get
your schedules together so founders have the option of choosing from multiple
offers. Leave the window open longer. It's pretty easy. Give them the forms
and have them mail them back once they decide. Like college acceptance; this
is a solved problem.

~~~
pg
_If they did their interviews/acceptance AFTER you, it would be the same
situation with YOU pressuring founders before they'd heard back from anyone
else!_

Sure. And if we stole their wallets we'd be robbers. But we don't, do we?

I'm going to propose to all the clones that in future we all have a common
date for startups to make decisions by. But since we currently decide last,
we're not pressuring anyone.

~~~
rguzman
alphalab decides after YC. <http://www.iwalphalab.org/survey_overview.aspx>
(look in the sidebar)

~~~
rms
I would be surprised if that was the reason for the timing of the decisions, I
suspect it was just convenient for them. AlphaLab is going after a decidedly
different market than YC: people that live in Pittsburgh. AlphaLab is also
consciously an incubator and not something that failed at copying YC and
accidentally turned into an incubator.

------
kirubakaran
These guys have suddenly gained a lot of respect in my eyes.

~~~
axod
The old bait'n'switch at work ;)

Do something a _bit_ bad, get some publicity, then apologize profusely!

~~~
llimllib
Somebody's taken their Apple™ Marketing Training Course.

------
daniel-cussen
Makes me think of Techstars...I don't think they're an all-out ripoff. Maybe
they just came up with a similar idea before YC started. When they saw YC,
they didn't feel they were copycats, but had to adapt to YC's presence. Just a
guess.

------
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