
Google Checkout Nightmare and the $126,000 phone call - prbuckley
I have been using Google Checkout as an option for making payments on my website. For the past two months I have jumped through every hoop they have asked me to, provide tracking numbers, banking details, vendor contacts, emailed back and forth with their customer support all with the understanding that my account was in process and my funds would be released soon. Well my account has grown to $126,000 and Google still won't pay out any of my funds!<p>I came to the end of my string after the 20ith something email when I got the message below. They have over $126,000 of my money and they won't even pick up phone to call me!<p>Hello P----,<p>Thank you for your reply. I understand you've shipped over 700 orders to
your buyers. However, you've not sent us tracking numbers for those
orders. Please send us proof of delivery (tracking numbers) so our
specialists can initiate your payouts.<p>To clarify, we have contacted some of your buyer(s) and expect email
confirmations once the goods are received.<p>In addition, at this time, we don't offer phone support for Google
Checkout. We look forward to providing additional support options in the
future. If you have specific questions, please reply to this email and
we'll be happy to address them.<p>If you need immediate assistance, you can also visit the Merchant Help
Center at https://checkout.google.com/support/sell or the Merchants Forum
at http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/checkout-merchants?hl=en for
frequently asked questions about Google Checkout.<p>Sincerely,<p>A------
The Google Checkout Team
======
patio11
I see from prbuckley's profile that this is probably related to the DODOcase,
a fashion accessory for tech folks which has six week delivery time. Ahh,
pieces are falling into place: 700 orders shipped out of a few thousand, some
customers complained (love that tech induced ADHD), Google froze the money.

While it isn't immediately helpful to you, a little bit of craftiness here
will kill two birds with one stone. First, _don't let orders queue_.
Customers, particularly ADHD tech types, are _very_ sensitive to shipping
delays. Instead, if you don't have the inventory and you're at your (low)
maximum queue size, turn off orders on the website.

The key, though, is how you do that. I'd highlight the scarcity/exclusivity
angle and _play it to the hilt_. Come on, you're selling I-can't-believe-its-
not-moleskin handmade in San Fransisco straight to Mac owners. This is a
luxury status item. Tell folks that if they didn't buy in time, they're simply
not worthy of your magical goodness. Then three weeks later, you produce some
more, and open orders again. You will be stampeded, and have to close again
within a day. Folks who didn't hear about it in time, well, not everybody can
be cool enough to own this. (Every time you open up orders, expect a burst of
Twitter/links/etc, as folks try to get in and then lament that they missed it
again or primp to their friends that their faith has been rewarded.)

(I'd suggest making the batches distinguishable in some way -- any way, heck,
you could just say "Our artists whispered the words 'Made in the second batch'
over these" and that would have the desired effect on your target customer.
Also, charge more.)

~~~
_Lemon_
> Customers, particularly ADHD tech types, are very sensitive to shipping
> delays.

Just to expand on this: very /very/ sensitive. However providing them an
accurate date upfront is a great way to combat this, even if it is a week
away. Adjust it accordingly and don't break your first promise to a new
customer.

The moment the clock ticks over the 7th day (and I mean, they will wait
/exactly/ 1 minute past 7 days for this). They will open up every support
channel and complain loudly and demand a lot from you. It's just not worth the
hassle!

~~~
KirinDave
Unfortunately these same ADHD types can't seem to read the webpage they're
ordering from. It's said "shipping in 4-6 weeks" forever.

~~~
ladyada
OK but...4-6 weeks is a very long time. Customers are used to Amazon-style
shipping. If you aren't going to ship in < a week, you should auth and not
capture or have a mailing/waiting list. (We don't capture till the moment they
get a tracking number.) Taking customer money to finance the current
manufacture is a fools' game - all it ends with is pissed customers

Note that Authorize/paypal (and google?) have a limit on how long you can wait
to refund (~90 days), and LIKEWISE, paypal (and google?) have a limit on how
long you can wait before filing a claim (45 days iirc). Guess when you should
ship packages after capturing? -Well- before 45 days.

AND WHILE IM AT IT...While customer literacy is always a bit questionable, if
you're finding a lot of confusion about your shipping policies - you should
probably change them! YES even if you think you are right. For example, we
used to (like everyone else) say that USPS packages were not insured. Guess
what? They'll chargeback anyways. So now all packages are insured at a very
reasonable rate. We get no complaints about the extra $ - but we DID get
complaints when packages were lost.

~~~
KirinDave
A small group of people are making an item by hand. If 4-6 weeks is too long
for you, you shouldn't order the item. Sorry, not everything is sitting in a
storehouse waiting for your order.

That's your decision as a customer, just like it's the sellers decision as a
merchant. Complaining to google checkout because the terms of the deal that
were explicitly stated are going according to plan is asinine. I don't care
who has ADHD, grow the fuck up.

~~~
lambda
If it's the customer's responsibility to pay attention to the 4-6 week ship
date, it's probably worthwhile for the seller to actually read the Google
Checkout order management policies
<http://checkout.google.com/seller/policies.html> which require you to capture
funds within 7 days of authorization, and ship within 24 hours of capturing.

His "4-6 weeks to ship" appears to be in direct violation of the Google
Checkout policy; you can't do fulfillment on that sort of timeframe if you
want to bill with Google Checkout.

~~~
KirinDave
I'm surprised to learn Google is so anti-etsy. I guess he should get his money
and then switch payment services.

~~~
mkull
Yep, Google Checkout is definitely the wrong choice for this business model.
It is extremely unfriendly if you are not shipping within a week of an order
being placed.

------
leftnode
I love Google as much as the next guy, but how could a legitimate business
that handles money not have a phone number to call to speak to a human to
resolve this? It's absolutely ridiculous that they can threaten your
livelihood and not have a human to talk to.

As bad as Paypal is, at least they offer live phone support. With the products
I sell, Google Checkout and Paypal aren't options, so even with all the red
tape you must go through to get a merchants account, I'd still rather do that
than use Google Checkout/Paypal.

~~~
mattmcknight
I would suggest it's not so much the availability of the phone call which is
the problem, but the policy which requires that all of this information be
submitted after some arbitrary dollar limit after all of these sales.

I am not sure waiting on hold, voice mail hell, and talking to a support
person is really a superior customer experience. I generally prefer email
support, if it is fast and you get a case that can be tracked. This is not to
say that it's not bad customer support, because it is bad customer support,
but I don't think having Google add a massive bank of phone support people
somewhere is going to help.

~~~
leftnode
Oh, you're totally right, but you know Google could implement a competent
phone support system.

And I love correspondence by email as well, but it appears Google even goes to
great lengths to avoid that (this case exempting).

------
ewilson
Billing prior to shipping is rapidly becoming an unacceptable practice. If you
are billing prior to shipping and then taking 6 weeks to fill the order then
you need to take a serious look at how you are doing business.

If your orders always take a lengthy amount of time to fill I would suggest
immediately sending a "your item is on back order and you will not be billed
until it ships" email with a link to an order cancellation page. This should
drastically cut down on the complaints and ease the mind of those consumers
who think you have billed them and are scamming them into waiting until the
billing complaint period has expired.

~~~
protomyth
Well, small craftspeople will need to bill before shipping so they can buy
material. Sure, for generic crap that is massed produced in some factory, no
billing before shipping. Wanting small run cool stuff and not wanting to be
pre-billed are mutually exclusive.

~~~
solidsnack
> Wanting small run cool stuff and not wanting to be pre-billed are mutually
> exclusive.

Why should customers have to provide financing? If it's so small run it can be
financed post-hoc by a few customer orders, then it's small enough that it can
be financed by a few friends, too.

~~~
kscaldef
When something is being custom-made for you, it's entirely normal to pay at
least part of the total up front. I could just as well ask you, why should
friends have to provide financing, as you seem to suggest should be the norm?

------
ukdm
Looks like your only course of action is to send them the tracking numbers
(again?). For $126,000 it's worth taking the time to do it. You may find all
the money in your bank account tomorrow.

~~~
PostOnce
Or litigate.

------
vaksel
frankly I'm shocked that Google still does such shitty customer support.

Sure Gmail, Search etc, I can understand that you can't supply customer
service for a free service used by millions(many of whom will call you for the
most trivial stuff).

But when you are dealing with people's money....surely you can afford $8-10
bucks an hour to give people proper customer support. It's not like google is
some tiny startup which can be excused due to size, they are bigger than most
corporations.

If you hold 6 figures of someone else's money, you better have a way for that
person to talk to you.

~~~
lsc
you do /not/ want to deal with an $8-$10/hr phone support person. Phone
support is an extremely stressful job with a high burn out rate. For that
money, you are going to get someone who is completely unable to get a job
elsewhere, and they will probably be new.

------
DeusExMachina
When I was leaving from Paypal for an issue like yours (they still have 300$
of my money) I investigated on Google Checkout and read a lot of horror
stories like yours.

I wish you to solve this and after that I suggest you to switch to Fastspring.
They have really excellent customer support, that becomes very valuable when a
lot of money are involved.

~~~
ryan-allen
What were the circumstances of your PayPal problems? The company I work for
take a very large volume of payments for 'digital goods' through PayPal, and
we haven't had any serious trouble (except for fraud through what we think
phished PayPal accounts).

So, I'd recommend PayPal, given their services have been helping pay my salary
for a number of years.

~~~
DeusExMachina
I changed my internet provider because I relocated. For some reason my IP
appeared to be from another country (I had a mobile internet key). When I
logged into my Paypal account, the system thought I was someone else and
blocked my account to prevent stealing.

No problem with that for me, it's a security measure I can understand. I had
to unlock the account and here is where the pain began.

Logging into my account to provide my information (ID, proof of residence,
etc) I was always brought to a page asking me to verify the IBAN of my bank
account. After entering it, an error was displayed, giving me a useless error
code (something like error 1005) and with a short explanation "there was an
internal problem, please try later". But trying later never worked, the error
was always there, preventing me to unlock my account.

I started writing the support. They answered that I had to fill in my
information to unlock my account. I told them that I could not do it because
there was an internal error. They kept answering that I had to fill in my
information to unlock it. This went on for a couple of weeks. What really
pissed me off was that every time they answered (the support guy was always
different), they always told me the same things, like they were not reading my
emails at all.

I tried to call the support phone number for my country. There was an
automatic voice with some steps to follow, including getting some
authentication code for my account from the website. After all that, the
automatic voice reminded me that my account was locked, as if I did not know
that already. I never managed to speak with someone in person. That was the
last drop, since loosing those 300$ would not have ruined my life, I switched
to Fastspring never to come back. I've been really happy with them.

After I while I realized that I could have tried to call the US phone number.
But I already switched, so I didn't care.

~~~
ryan-allen
Ah that sounds unfortunate. I certainly have given up for similar sums in the
past (not on payment gateways, but on things like tickets to cancelled gigs
and junk).

The honest truth is that we stick with PayPal because we're an Australian
company who, as a business decision, take US dollars for our products. Setting
up a merchant account in Australia that can take US dollars seems to be
unheard of and practically impossible.

Though I'm sure you've heard of the Internet Filter and more recently the full
recording of internet history at ISP levels for all customers. Australia has
some catching up to do in general in regards to the internet and internet
business.

------
GiraffeNecktie
Get a letter sent from an established Mountain View-based law firm, i.e. one
that would be known to Google's legal department. It'll cost you some bucks
but it beats going out of business.

------
gaiusparx
Wonder why Google needs to contact your buyers for confirmation? I thought
they are the middle man should be transparent in the purchase process.

~~~
Spark23
Rather wondering why google is allowed to do that ... As you said, they're
just the payment processor, you shouldn't be obligated to show them proof that
the goods you were paid for were actually delivered

~~~
stefanp
Well, the hard part about paypal and probably google checkout isn't processing
payments, it's managing fraud - see Max Levchin's interview in the (very good,
imho) "Founders at Work" book.

So I'm not surprised google has to do potentally damaging things to somehow
make it all work.

The strange part to me is that they don't require and automate this buyer
contact info & tracking number gathering from the start.

------
reidman
For the record, it states in their Seller Policy (
<https://checkout.google.com/seller/policies.html> ) that you have to capture
within 7 days and ship within 24 hours of capture.

I learned this the hard way when I presold books through Google Checkout. I
mistakenly read the UK ToS which, unlike the US ToS, allowed preorders. Once
we'd amassed more than $40k, they contacted us via email to let us know we had
run afoul of their policy.

I pleaded with them to give me time to fulfill the orders, and to their
credit, they did. They kept 100% of the funds until I sent them notification
that I had shipped every package.

Nowadays, even though I only use them to process a couple thousand dollars per
month, they are perpetually sitting on $1,000 of my funds as a protection
against chargebacks/fraud. I was told that if I wanted that money, I had to
close my account and wait 3 months for the funds to "clear". I've asked for
the cap to be lowered, but they never bothered to respond.

------
apgwoz
Not sure if you saw the post on hacker news entitled: "Need to process
payments?" -- <http://ycombinator.posterous.com/need-to-process-payments>, but
you might wanna contact them once you get everything else sorted out. Good
luck!

------
prbuckley
What would you do if you were me?

~~~
patio11
Make this a PR issue for Google. It is the most effective way to get
effective, timely customer support from them.

A blog post with judicious images of their boilerplate emails, incredulity
about how they seem to repeat the same thing over and over, a timeline, a
punchy title (I kind of like "Grand Theft Google" but you could dial down the
tabloidism several notches and still be effective), and seeding with a tech
audience will work pretty well.

~~~
thewileyone
Agreed. You need to prove that you have responded and are beyond reproach.
Otherwise, it didn't happen. That's a lot of money, so ... what the hell are
you doing posting your complaint here?!?

~~~
khafra
This is a pretty good testbed for making it a Google PR problem; several
Google employees are HN members; and the crowd here is Google Checkout's prime
demographic. I'd say he's doing a lot of good posting his complaint here, both
for himself and for future Google Checkout victims.

------
omarchowdhury
At your volume of sales, you really need to setup a merchant account for your
business to process payments. Using middlemen like Google Checkout and Paypal
and you are going to fall into problems.

I can help you get setup with your own MID with a liberal acquiring bank, send
me an email ofcmanagement at gmail if you're interested.

------
qq66
$126,000 in two months...good work!

~~~
cheald
Given that he's shipping physical goods, it's difficult to imagine that it's
all profit. He could well be counting on those funds to finance his supply
chain, which could leave his business dead in the water if he can't get access
to the money he's earned.

~~~
prbuckley
You are dead on. This is really hurting my business cash flow. I am shipping
product that I am not getting compensated for. Google is making me the monkey
in the middle.

~~~
Devilboy
To be fair it does look like you're breaching Google Checkout's terms:

<https://checkout.google.com/seller/policies.html>

'You may not capture funds more than 24 hours before you fulfill the order.
Fulfill means you have shipped the physical product, delivered the digital
content, or performed the service.'

------
drtse4
This reminds me of some paypal horror stories... not good. The approach
patio11 suggests is the best one i guess.

~~~
prbuckley
We had problems with PayPal as well but at least they called us on the phone
and after some hair pulling we were able to come to a reasonable resolution.
Google Checkout just stone walls you.

~~~
kragen
Man, when people are comparing your customer service unfavorably to _PayPal_ ,
you're _really_ in trouble.

~~~
patio11
Paypal is to customer service as Microsoft is to security: they appear to have
gotten religion after their feet were held to the fire, for all the good that
that does them in the tech community's eyes.

For what its worth, I've sold something like $50,000 on Paypal and the handful
of issues I've had were resolved with quiet professionalism and reasonable
timeliness, in much the same manner that I'd expect from e.g. a bank.

~~~
BrandonM
Paypal might be OK from a seller's perspective, but it's pretty abysmal from a
customer's perspective.

A couple months ago I was in a financial pinch and one of my bank accounts was
overdrawn, while another one had funds in it. I printed a shipping label using
Paypal, making sure to use the correct account. When I printed a second
shipping label, I assumed it would use the most-recently-used account (the
last 4 digits differed by only one number), but it instead defaulted to the
overdrawn account.

Only a few minutes later, I noticed this and immediately called Paypal. They
said that it was too late to cancel or assign a new source for the payment,
even though I told them the payment would be rejected by my bank. I deposited
from my other bank account to my Paypal account enough money to cover the
charge, and they still couldn't cancel the debit to my overdrawn account. A
few days later, I received an email message:

 _Your bank has declined the funds transfer because your account did not have
sufficient funds available. We will automatically re-attempt this transfer in
3 business days. Please fund your bank account immediately to ensure this
transaction can be completed._

What?! I already had enough money in my Paypal account to cover the charge,
but they instead chose to _recharge_ the same account in 3 days? I called them
again as soon as I received this email, but they said they could not change
this transaction, that it was their policy and that the process could not be
altered. Three days later, lo and behold, it was declined again, and they
finally took the money from my Paypal account. Meanwhile, my bank charged me
$70 for the two declined charges, all for an under-$4 shipping label.

I will be avoiding Paypal in the future. That kind of inflexibility, poor
service, and bad policy combines for an awful customer experience.

------
kragen
So you say you've sent them tracking numbers, and they say you haven't? Are
they lying, mistaken, or what?

~~~
prbuckley
I think it is a misinformed customer support person.

------
lydialern
Google checkout sounds worse than Paypal. I have both and right now have my
own nightmare with them Customer claimed empty box sent for heavy item said
wanted exchange, sent back replacement now claims wrong size. I used to call
Paypal automotons but at least they people that you can talk to, it's so
obvious what is going on. They say resolved then say customer not happy. Con
artist is not happy. I am sure all the conartists know that it's a sure way to
rip off people. !2 years in business no problems online with empty box, google
checkout 6 months and first of a few problems with con artists, this by far
the worst.

I am sure in your case , the ones that are con artists that have the request
of receipt will say they did not receive. I guess what you should do is update
all the tracking in the google checkout system to avoid any problems. Gee and
I thought they were great at ebay live 2007 in Boston but they seem to be
slipping down on the job. Ebay is now the payment king, bonanzle the best site
for selling and google should stay with search. Creativity in business
solutions is not their forte, neither are phones i guess. Losing steam and
unhappy customers virally transmitted info people spreads fast..Paypal has
lawsuits due to their way, I think there is no due process on google checkout
either. They had better be careful and they definitely need a customer service
line. I don't know how they think that they can operate without one!.

------
mkull
Google Checkout is terrible for pre-orders and things that do not ship within
5-7 days of authorization of card. I would definitely recommend NOT using
Google Checkout for this type of business model, some research might have
saved you the frustration.

I believe there might also be an issue with the legality of charging actually
charging for the purchase prior to shipment. Most merchants will typically
authorize the card, and then issue the capture transaction once a tracking
number is availability.

This then will lead you to to the next issue that will be especially painful
to deal with using Google Checkout: bad authorizations.

We have had scenarios where we authorized a card on a Tuesday, found out the
item was backordered for a week and thus did not ship the item and attemp to
issue the capture transaction until 8 days later.

With Google Checkout, a re-auth is needed after 7 days. Unfortunately you do
not find out the re-auth failed until AFTER you have shipped the items (and
then attempted to capture funds on the order). You are then out of luck on
capturing any funds if you cannot contact the customer and get another form of
payment.

Happy to discuss this further if you would like some advice.

------
sankara
Not related directly to the issue; but I have seen another issue that I
wouldn't imagine being there in any payment processor. The ability to see all
subscriptions in one place. The only way to stop google apps from charging my
checkout account is to disable auto renew in the dashboard (won't help if I
helped a friend buy a domain because he didn't have a credit card) or to
remove the payment methods associated.

------
kmfrk
Aren't there any legal means to fight this battle? Consumer laws and other
ways of enforcement. Perhaps __grellas __has a low-down on this?

The whole Aaron Greenspan mess ([http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-
greenspan/why-i-sued-goo...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-
greenspan/why-i-sued-google-and-won_b_172403.html)) does not put me at ease.

------
gaiusparx
One more thing, you might want to check if there is any "beta" label on Google
Checkout sites.

------
gritzko
I recognize this e-mail drafting scheme well. I also had very mixed
experiences with Google Checkout. I finally found a workaround, but will try
to avoid them in the future. Their 'support' is atrocious.

------
nl
Try suing them in a small claims court - it's worked at least once before:

 _In the end, printed on a baby blue sheet of paper by the clerk's aging dot
matrix printer, the judgment was actually entered for $761.00 total, due to
the $40.00 court costs. I couldn't help but to smile in front of the judge.

"But it's not fair!" Google's paralegal protested. "What if everyone whose
account was canceled sued Google?"_

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-greenspan/why-i-sued-
goo...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-greenspan/why-i-sued-google-and-
won_b_172403.html)

(IANAL, etc)

~~~
unfletch
Worked temporarily. Google appealed that case and won:
[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-greenspan/why-google-
bot...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-greenspan/why-google-bothered-to-
ap_b_213176.html)

------
Kaizyn
Why not take one or two of the oldest payments Google is withholding and file
a small claims lawsuit against Google as a test? If the courts allow the case
to proceed and you win, then just batch up your claims and over time you can
get all your money.

You will just have to be careful not to exceed the small claims lawsuit money
award limits. Name Larry, Sergey, and Eric as the defendants if you really
want to get Google's attention. Also, after you hit Google once or twice with
a suit, they will probably get you all of your money quickly.

------
theduder
sorry I didn't read ALL the posts (so sorry for redundant information) but we
have dealt with some of these woes before. Although PayPal does have some
crazy requirements for PCI compliance and so fourth using PayPal would solve
two of your problems;

1 - requiring tracking numbers for the release of funds 2- Being able to reach
someone by phone. We have a direct number for a real human at PayPal, he is
always the same human and knows who we are.

PayPal will require some reserves for charge-backs (depending on your volume &
historical charge back rates)

We run millions of dollars with PayPal and aside from reserves it has been a
pretty great experience. To answer an earlier question of why not a
traditional merchant account, no one has been able to beat the MPF to date.

We have also ran pre-orders for items that did not ship for 2-3 months,
clearly stated the ship date and had a extraordinary amount of complaints to
our support staff, BBB, and even charge backs before the ship date. People do
not read. When ordering my DODOcase even being one of the ADHD apple fanboys
in question I clearly understood when I could expect the item to arrive (still
not at the finish line yet). I feel your pain though, nothing is worse then
doing everything right and having a successful product only to have all your
funds tied up with the bank, good luck.... Can i have my DODOcase now?

------
khangtoh
Is google the worst company with support system? this is not the only product
that google has no phone or live person that you can speak to.

Even their Google apps for businesses only has a support form
<http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/business/support.html> that is really bad.

------
openfly
Yeah, no phone support is a fail. Use amazon or paypal. Mind you, I've heard
similar stories from both of those.

------
WalterBright
With that volume of money, why not use a credit card merchant account? I use
one, and I've always found the CC company to be easy to get on the phone and
eager to help me with any issues.

------
scotty79
Does anyone know "moneybookers" horror stories? I think this service is
unencumbered with overprotective US consumer rights.

~~~
jat850
Moneybookers has $950 of my money (not a lot, I know, but it is to me) and is
holding it hostage. I'm thoroughly displeased with them, in comparison to some
others I know who have had no problems with them, even when dealing in much
larger amounts of money than I am.

------
clammer
Google may always be a textbox and button company. If you read their message
board for adwords you'll find seriously disgruntled people who've SPENT
hundreds of thousands of dollars on advertising and still can't get anyone on
the phone. That's SPENT...as in less than one year, spend 100K+...no phone
support.

You can't even BUY support from Google. Basically, go ahead and use their free
stuff, but don't do business with Google if you can help it.

Obviously, their advertising scales so well, it's hard not to...

~~~
rbanffy
On the other hand, my AdSense account was blocked for reasons only known to
them without much recourse beyond asking (once and only once) "are you sure?"
to what they replied "positive".

In the end it was good. I spread my banners across more partners and net a
good deal more through them than I ever got through Google.

Still, I wish I had that cleared up. It's certainly annoying to be banned from
a market for unknown reasons.

------
mrfish
So you made $126,000 and your still using Google Checkout. I call bull shit!
Most people get a merchant account from their bank and then they don't get
screwed.

If this is true then I think you should probably send out a nice letter to
your customers and tell them that your refunding their money because Google is
causing you grief, link to a blog post explaining the situation in details,
and ask them to pay again via your new merchant provider. I think that if
people saw the refund on their statement, then they'd pay again. Then you'd
get something.

I think the lesson here is that you should never rely on a service / company
who won't put any effort into customer support. I thought this was common
sense?

~~~
wmealing
He didn't actually get the money _to_ refund them.

------
elblanco
One word, lawsuit.

~~~
elblanco
Yes, let's not consider suing somebody who owes us over a $100k. Anybody have
reasonable alternatives other than downvotes?

------
stretchwithme
so, sorry, sir, but we cannot find any proof the packages were delivered using
Google Maps Street View. Therefore, they could not have been delivered.

we do offer information to help you through your situation. just search on the
terms "bankrupt screwed over"

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cturner
As frustrating as this is for the author, we only have one side of the story,
this is not hacker news, it's simple bitching. Perhaps it has a place on
reddit, but not here. And the headline is deceptive.

