
Ask HN: Do you feel Apple products have become too expensive? - d3ckard
I have been using primarily Apple equipment for the last 8 years. It is still my preferred hardware to work with. It was always on the premium side of things, but I still believe 999$ Macbook Air was the best offer on the market for a while.<p>Recently however, I feel like I do not get enough of Apple to warrant constantly and sharply rising prices, starting with iPhone breaking $1000 barrier.<p>How do you feel about it? Are you still getting enough bang for your buck?
======
cimmanom
Apple's operating systems and hardware used to be rock solid, and absolutely
worth the premium.

I still like their operating systems better than the alternatives; but not
sure the bar is all that high. They're increasingly buggy; new "features" are
either zero use or detrimental to my workflows; and I find myself hanging on
as much due to ecosystem lock-in as due to any particular desire to stick with
Apple. (That said, I don't particularly want to deal with the privacy and
security tightrope of using Android.)

Their hardware has totally gone down the drain. If I had the skillset to put
the guts of a maxed out 2019 15" MBP into the chassis of my 2013 model (maybe
with some extra room for more battery?), I'd do it in a heartbeat. If they
sold that computer (or better, a 13" equivalent), money would be no object.

But literally everything external about the current model is a downgrade --
and I don't mean in some sort of consumer-y "it's not as pretty" way. I mean
every single thing about the interface is worse. The touchpad was perfect; now
it's too big. The keyboard was great; now it's fragile and barely usable.
There used to be a function key row; now we have that touchbar bullshit. We
used to have all the ports you could need, and a magsafe connector (with an
extension cord!); now there's just a USB-C port or two and ALL THE DONGLES.

If I could buy a 4" iPhone with this year's CPU and RAM and camera specs and a
goddamned headphone jack, I'd seriously consider it even at the enormous
prices they're charging for the X. As it is, all the current phones are
unusable to me, and I'll probably next end up with either a flip phone plus
MP3 player or some weirdo thing off Kickstarter.

~~~
andrei_says_
This year I purchased a maxed out 2015 MacBook Pro with MagSafe 2 and all the
ports. Absolutely love it and will be sending it to Rossman for repair if
anything happens to it.

Apple removing MagSafe and the ports is just bonkers. I write code so I’d
never use a touch bar. Replacing the ports with dongles surely helps them make
a cheaper board but is shitty experience for everyone else. Making intentional
efforts to reduce repairability from 1 to zero on a ten point scale is also
hostile.

Love the OS and the attitude toward privacy but everything else sucks.

Have been running a Hackintosh for photo and video work for two years and
while it’s stuck on an old macOS it still works and has plenty of power.

Don’t see myself touching any of the new laptops. May look into a Mac mini
with external graphics but it’s so overpriced that buying it feels humiliating
and exploitative.

------
mostlysimilar
Apple products and services mostly fit my needs and I'm willing to pay the
price for that.

Things I value:

\- Physically beautiful products with high build quality (2016+ MacBook
keyboards notwithstanding), including the best displays and trackpads

\- A business model oriented heavily around privacy and security

\- iOS: the app ecosystem is second to none in terms of quality

\- macOS: built on UNIX with a stable, aesthetically pleasing, and functional
desktop environment

That said, where it makes sense I choose other products. Spotify is lightyears
ahead of Apple Music and I spend accordingly.

I occasionally scope the landscape for alternatives and never come up with
anything substantial. I absolutely don't want an Android phone, and any
switching away from a MacBook would involve taking on a lot more friction in
my day to day. I enjoy the occasional tryst with GNU/Linux but I don't want it
to be my main driver, even if I could get a proper display and trackpad.
Windows is entirely out of the question.

~~~
askafriend
I share your thoughts right down to the point about physically beautiful and
carefully considered products. For example - I don't care how good a Razer
mouse is, I would hate to stare at that aesthetic all day. It would really get
to me.

With Apple Watch and AirPods to round out the ecosystem, they've really got me
captivated. It's hard to consider anything else because it's almost always the
case that everything just doesn't work as well together.

------
marssaxman
I was a devoted Macintosh user from 1985 onward, but it's been six or seven
years since I last bought an Apple product. Apple seems to have become
increasingly particular about the kind of experience they want you to have
when you use their equipment, and it doesn't appeal to me; it's pretty, to be
sure, but it's too paternalistic. I'd rather be left alone to do things the
way I feel like doing them.

The MacBook Pro I use at work is nice enough, though I feel more of an eye-
rolling irritation with its high-tech touch bar, paper-thin keyboard, and USB-
C-only design than the sense of futuristic delight Apple must have been hoping
for. I cannot see anything about it which comes close to justifying its $2800
price tag, and I would never consider buying one for myself.

Hardware performance outran my day-to-day needs a long time ago, so I am
perfectly content with a $300-$400 second-hand laptop and a $250 phone. I have
learned to take a sort of contrarian delight in the humble, rugged
utilitarianism of a ThinkPad, and I recently got a phone with a QWERTY
keyboard, because I'm tired of typing on glass and fighting with autocorrect.
It's probably a good thing for the world that Apple keeps pushing the frontier
of design forward, but I don't need to be along for that ride myself.

------
benologist
I feel like they provided excellent value on my 2013 MBP, but if it broke I
wouldn't buy any of their machines.

The way they have handled their keyboard design problem, bent iPads, too-short
display cables etc is simply deceitful and unethical, that makes me less
interested in dealing with them. I don't want to argue about hardware flaw
repairs again and again over the life of a machine while it periodically
disappears for a couple weeks until Apple finds legal justification to stop
free keyboard repairs.

But mostly it seems like the Mac has come to a grinding halt. Four years to do
a CPU bump on the Mini, two years for a CPU bump on the iMac, five years and
counting for the Mac Pro. Rumor has it they maybe can show a prototype in a
few months of the 2014 Mac Pro in anticipation of a 2020ish release lol.

We'll never know for sure, but they probably invest more on evading taxes than
continued Mac development.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/world/apple-taxes-
jersey....](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/world/apple-taxes-jersey.html)

------
jason_slack
I still do. Since 1994 I have been Mac only and feeding my family. Some work
situations I had to use Windows though.

I dropped my MacBook Pro going through airport security 2 years ago and it
still runs perfectly just with some dents. I recently bought a 32gb model and
love it.

The pain points now are the software instability and general lack of polish.
Also I am beginning to feel like Apple just doesn’t care about use lowly folks
who believed in them when they were close to being extinct. They say they care
at every WWDC but I’m still waiting for them to show it. I finally upgraded to
10.14 last week and it bricked my machine and I have to do an internet restore
which took 15 hours to get back to a point I could reinstall my apps and data.
The reason? APFS issues when blasting back from a disk image I keep with my
stuff installed and ready to go. The Genius Bar wanted to replace my touchbar
citing that as the issue for a disk error.....

Overall I’m still hanging in there but I have started working my daily tasks
on an old Linux laptop and I’m very happy. Time will tell.

------
writepub
No - not getting enough bang for the buck at all.

\- Price for similar spec PCs is almost 0.5X. 10 years back, one could argue
that Macs offered better build quality and reliability, but not in 2019!

\- Apple's slow creep into everything I do on my Mac and iPhone is
unacceptable. Macs have been secure enough without the recently announced
intention from Apple to prevent non-signed apps from running, in upcoming Mac
OS releases. No sirre Bob, this is not about security, but greed from Apple to
control execution of apps on a computer that I legally wholly own!

\- Mac OS quality is consistently declining. From the password bug a year ago,
to a string of software issues with High Sierra, it feels like Apple has let
it's good down on software.

So no - it's rather buy a premium PC with much better specs and build quality,
and run Linux on it, or even Windows 10 with WSL.

~~~
scarface74
_Price for similar spec PCs is almost 0.5X. 10 years back, one could argue
that Macs offered better build quality and reliability, but not in 2019!_

My next purchase will probably be a 5K iMac. Since LG seems to be the only
reputable company selling a 5K monitor, I would be looking at $1200 for a
monitor by itself. A $1799 5K iMac is s good deal.

I doubt that you would even find a PC equivalent of a MacBook Air for half the
cost. Cheaper yes, but not half.

There was nothing more “secure” about the Mac than Windows except that no one
bothered to write malware for it.

------
NicoJuicy
I have had the iPod and iPhone 3GS. iPod had a harddrive firmware problem,
never got the warranty. Loved it though

iPhone water issues because of a person and a swimming pool :p

Never wanted anything of Apple since then because I was afraid all prices
would rise too much and I think it did, for all "premium" products. I saw
people buying it who can hardly afford it.

But since a long time, I think they don't give the bang for the buck also (
2016).

I kept Windows and used Android. Touchbar, non-standard cables, Apple licenced
accessories, ... None of that is worth it to me.

Phone = calling, sms, email and surfing ( some).

Tablet = x360 ( convertible laptop), a regular tablet is just for consuming.
Not for producing

Development = Windows with Linux subsystem and Visual Studio.

I thought about an Apple mini as build controller, but didn't want to support
it.

~~~
scarface74
_Never wanted anything of Apple since then because I was afraid all prices
would rise too much and I think it did, for all "premium" products. I saw
people buying it who can hardly afford it._

The first iPhone was $499. The iPhone 7 while three generations old, is still
faster than all but the highest end Android phones and will probably 3 or 4
more years - $475

The original iPad was $499. The newest regular 9.7” iPad is $329

When I bought an “entry level” Mac LCII it was $2100 back in 1992 with the
monitor. The lowest cost iMac that anyone should buy is $1699 - 21.5” iMac
with 256Gb SSD and 16GB RAM.

The base level MacBook Air for $1199 is a perfectly good laptop.

Apple has never been the lowcost leader.

------
lewisflude
I personally am getting a tonne of value out of my Apple products.

My MacBook Pro is generally a total joy to use for work (development). Both
the software and hardware are fantastic.

My iPhone goes everywhere with me, and does more than I could ever have
dreamed it would when I was younger.

Objectively, there are more powerful, affordable pieces of hardware you can
buy, but I really appreciate the small touches and attention to detail that
are typical of Apple products.

I also appreciate that I'm in a very privileged position to be able to use
Apple stuff. It does cost a lot, and if you're on a budget the prices can
definitely feel frustrating.

------
james_in_the_uk
I became a bit addicted to buying independent apps on MacOS. A little bit on
iOS too.

Little bits of shareware here and there.

With, of course, an annual upgrade cycle.

When I looked at why I was buying them, I realised it was more and more to
merely replace Apple services with those that are more open.

I now use Windows and Android. Win 10 has a minimalist vibe to its UI that's a
welcome relief from Apple's over-designed UX. A legacy of Apple's skeuomorphic
approach which I always disliked.

I now have a very limited number of apps which I pay for. 5 I think. Compared
to about 25 on Mac.

Otherwise I use freeware and open source. Yes the quality of these apps is not
always so high. But they do the job, and I spend less time and money managing
and upgrading them.

I'd prefer to use Linux of course, but am limited by some key apps such as
DXO. Windows does the job.

The hardware is slightly cheaper but TCO is much cheaper for me.

Significantly, I do not use my personal machines for work. YMMV.

------
Isamu
I do agree with the sub- $1000 Macbook Air, I bought a couple of those. In
particular I don't know why it was not more popular among consumers that don't
need the flagship models. I think consumers must be programmed to buy the
model with the most features.

I don't think that's a fair comparison with iPhone, since you are comparing
the least expensive of a line with the most expensive. There are plenty of
iPhone models to choose from, and they haven't abandoned the lower-cost tiers.

Check out the history of iPhone cost tiers here, they have only significantly
expanded the upper end over time.

[https://twitter.com/asymco/status/1040240778860146688?lang=e...](https://twitter.com/asymco/status/1040240778860146688?lang=en)

------
scarface74
There is nothing forcing you to buy a $1000 iPhone - there is always the $475
iPhone 7.

You also don’t have to buy an iMac Pro or a fully decked out MacBook Pro.

Apple has plenty of good mid priced hardware - except for the current
unreliable keyboards on laptops.

~~~
endemic
I think this is the way to go for the value-conscious Apple fan. It used to be
that you could buy a base model and then upgrade it later. Since everything is
soldered nowadays, buying used or previous-gen will get you pretty much the
same computing experience for less money, especially since performance gains
for each generation are diminishing.

------
paulrpotts
I've been using Macs since 1985 and programming them, too. I work with Windows
and Linux as well, but Macs have often been my "daily driver" \- my first was
an SE, I had a PowerBook Duo, and then a Titanium PowerBook G4, and then a
2008 Mac Pro. The Mac Pro is still my "main" computer - four hard drives,
rotating on-site and off-site backups.

I used that machine for my photo library, for a big archival photo project
with Aperture, for music recording with an Apogee Ensemble interface, for
podcast production, for video production, to manage all my e-mail, to record
and mix multi-track audio with Logic. I use a lot of command-line tools (via
Homebrew, or compiling from sources).

From my perspective Snow Leopard was the high point of reliability and
functionality. I liked the concept of my computer with multiple monitors as a
media hub.

The way Apple has taken features away from successive versions of iMovie, and
killed Aperture, and turned MacOS X increasingly into a walled garden, has
been a huge turnoff for me. I have an old iPad and it's useful for watching
videos and chatting on Twitter but I don't want or need iOS devices to
_replace_ general-purpose computers. I didn't buy the cylinder Mac Pro because
- call me crazy and old - I still want drive bays. I don't want to move all my
work to a laptop (and as a guy who writes a LOT - hundreds of thousands of
words a month - keyboard quality is pretty important to me). And I've never
been interested in an iPhone.

I don't have any interest in keeping all my documents in the "cloud" (psssttt
-- the cloud is just other people's computers!) And I want my own DRM-free
media to live on my own computer's drives such that no one can shut down a
service or discontinue support and take it away from me. I don't want to
"subscribe" to apps, but that's another story.

Basically I'm no longer Apple's target audience, and it's frustrating. It's
not really about cost for me, per se. It's about Apple's declining interest in
the whole notion of general-purpose computers as open and unrestricted tools
for creative people and allowing them to own and store their own files. I'm
curious for the promised next-generation Mac Pro but I'm not too hopeful.

------
jakobegger
If you use a Mac as a professional, they are not overpriced. New Macs easily
last 5 years [1], and 2500€ for a professional tool is not a lot of money
considering how much you pay the person using it.

If you just want a Mac for personal use, then you have to decide if its worth
it. A top of the line MBP with touch bar is probably a bit excessive if you
use it just to edit your vacation photos. But on the other hand lots of people
spend 30k€ on a nice car even though a 10k€ hatchback would also get them to
work.

My mom just got a used mid 2017 MBA with decent specs (I don't recall the
exact configuration) for around 600€. It'll easily last her the next 5 years,
and probably even longer than that. So there still are affordable options if
you don't insist on getting the latest model.

[1]: The new MBP keyboard might be an exception to that rule, so if you're
worried about that, maybe wait for a successor to the butterfly keyboard
before buying a new Mac laptop.

------
IOT_Apprentice
My MacBook Air (mid 2012) is still running strong, only had to do a battery
replacement from macsales.com. I have a macmini for plex use, a first edition
iPad Pro 12.9 and an iPhone X. And a powered off 2007 MacPro.

I skipped the upgrade to 2018 iPhone as the X was fast enough and did not see
a difference in the new model.

The new macbook Air finally gives Retina, but I'm leary of the keyboard.

I truly dislike the gluing of batteries in the laptops and the soldering of
ram and ssd's in their laptops as well. And Apple's ram pricing is highway
robbery. I'm not sure what I will due when the Macbook Air ssd dies and I have
to decide what personal laptop to buy.

The 2015 iPad Pro is a beast and was a great investment. After all this time,
I have zero usage of the original Apple Pencil, which surprised me. The only
disappointment is the failure around the keyboard/cover and the side connector
which now complains about it, even if I switch one out. Beyond that, I think
the Pro will maintain value for a long time from a performance standpoint.

Windows 10 (which I use at work) has, at a general level achieved parity with
the Finder and window management. Browsers/Office 365/apps are much the same.
Trackpads on windows machines suck (both Dell and HP Zbook).

I dislike the plastic feel of the windows laptops and their trackpads, but
their cost for RAM and drive space is much cheaper than Apple. The cost
differential for macos machines is out of alignment with the market. For now I
don't have to worry, but when I do have to replace it is the purchase cost and
hard lock-in on RAM and SSD size that are concerning.

------
askafriend
People have been complaining about the price of Apple products since the
beginning of the company. This is nothing new. Every year, it's the same
boring set of complaints and chief among them is price.

Apple creates premium, often uncompromising products. That's not to say
they're perfect...not by a long shot...but it's never really been about the
low end market for them. They've always approached it top down sparing no
expense and doing their best as a business to convince the consumer market
that it's worth paying more than the alternative. I think most would agree
that they've been succeeding for a long time. At it's core, Apple is a design
company - you're paying for more than the components, you're paying for the
philosophy. And people resonate with it.

The proof is right in the earnings reports.

------
torstenvl
Apple's prices have been increasing while their quality has been decreasing,
and both are happening at a rapid pace.

Root password bugs, data loss in APFS, goto fail, etc.... these are all
unacceptable issues.

I recently upgraded my iPhone, but I'm going to start thinking about
alternatives and planning toward decreasing reliance on the ecosystem.

------
achenatx
I dont like the apple ecosystem. I dont like the iphone and I do think it is
overpriced. My wife uses the iphone X/apple watch/mac book air. Apple hardware
lasts a long time. We still have original ipod minis, iphone gen 1, ipad gen 2
in service as docked mp3 players, picture frames, etc.

I find the case on iphones to be too slippery, requiring you to cover it with
another case. My android phone does not need a case and the phone wasnt that
expensive so if I drop it, it isnt a big deal.

I find very annoying things like text messages to my wifes phone showing up on
all apple devices. turning off the feature hasn't helped.

Apple periodically makes me reauthenticate to icloud on my macbook. However I
have no other apple device so it sends the codes to my wife's phone. _very_
annoying.

I used the first iphone but switched to android for my next phone because the
iphone lacked T9 search which android had/has. The iphone still doesnt have T9
dialing. It matches letters/numbers in any portion of the name. This is
helpful when I cant remember someones first or last name. It is also helpful
when I have lots of people with the same name, but I know a portion of their
actual #. It never takes me more than 3 taps to dial.

The iphone didnt have the capability to override calendar notifications. I use
an app on android that lets me snooze reminders until an arbitrary number of
minutes before the event (for me it is 2 minutes before). I started missing
meetings constantly because of the lack of this function when I had an iphone.

Until recently the iphone didnt have the ability to take phone+conference
bridge numbers and autodial the whole thing

I despise itunes. Something is always breaking causing me to lose music, to
have to rebuy music, to reinstall the entire library from backup etc.

Getting pictures off the iphone is a nightmare. On android, you mount it as a
drive and copy the images.

I do use a macbook as macosx has a *nix lineage.

------
simonh
If you want bang for your buck, don't get the premium model iPhone.

It varies a lot. When I bought my 1st gen 27" 5K iMac it was cheaper than a
premium 4K display (screen only) from some other manufacturers, that it out-
performed just in terms of the display.

Timing with respect to the tech cycle makes a big difference. Apple hardware
tends to maintain it's price point through it's life cycle more so than most,
so if you buy shortly before a refresh you can certainly end up paying through
the nose.

Then there's a synergy factor. Yes you can get a laptop with a comparable CPU
and storage to an Air, but how good is the touchpad? Is the SSD as fast and on
as good a bus? Does the display have as good a colour gamut and photographic
fidelity? Is the keyboard – er – ok you got me on that one.

------
clay_the_ripper
I still get a lot of value from Apple. For me the biggest plus is the
longevity of their products. Or at least it used to be! I have a maxed out mid
2015 MBP 15” that’s going strong and a sturdy iPhone 7 Plus. I am concerned
about he longevity of new iPhones (glass backs?) and of course the well
documented issues with the new mbp.

Overall, for the quality of the hardware, ease of use and quality support I
have always gotten from Apple, I am a customer for life. I value ease of use
and design above everything, so I would never switch to windows, Linux or
android (cue the hate but you must admit, if nothing else Apple products are
damn easy to use. If I have to spend 1 extra hour configuring something, or do
anything cusom whatsoever that is unacceptable to me)

------
wilsonnb3
I’ve spent probably close to $4k on Apple products over the past two years.
Before that, my last Apple products were an iPhone 3GS and a 3rd generation
iPod nano.

The main draws for me, in no particular order:

\- iPad apps are way better than Android tablet apps

\- There are more high quality apps for iOS in general

\- I use 100% Microsoft products at work at the moment so having the MacBook
at home helps me keep a few toes in the Unix world

\- the integration between iPhone, iPad, Mac, and Watch is way better than the
competition

All in all, I think the apple products were worth the premium to me.

They weren’t THAT much more expensive than flagship Samsung smartphones and
high end laptops anyways.

I’d be happy living the windows and android life too, though. People give it a
lot of shit (especially on the internet) but modern OS’s are all pretty good.

------
Yhippa
For whatever reason the companies I've worked for have footed the bills to buy
MBP's. The last one that I think had the best value were the 2015 MBP's. The
ones with the Touchbar do not give me enough value for the price (I would have
paid).

------
telesilla
I'm looking at upgrading to a newer Macbook Pro from my 2012 which is starting
to feel slow particularly for GPU tasks. What is the best model that's been
released in the last 4 years? I was looking at the 2015 but it's practically
the same as my 2012 (4-core i7). Is the 8-core i9 actually going to work? I've
read it's useless because of the heat issue:

[https://www.leafandcore.com/2018/07/21/apples-
new-i9-macbook...](https://www.leafandcore.com/2018/07/21/apples-
new-i9-macbook-pro-is-reportedly-slower-than-the-i7/)

------
0_gravitas
Louis Rossman has 100% guaranteed that I will never purchase an apple product
in my life

------
mchannon
The Apple II cost $1298 (in 1977 dollars, $5444 today). That's with 4K of RAM.
The 48K RAM drove the price up to $2638. Disk drives and monitor were extra.

The Apple Lisa cost $10000 (in 1983 dollars, $25522 today).

A 512K "Fat Mac" Macintosh cost $3200 (in 1984 dollars, $7829 today).

20 pounds, 9" 1-bit 512x342 display, no hard drive. I think that also didn't
include the 400k floppy drive. And it would only work when plugged in.

Those were a good deal back then because of the quality of the games and the
things they let you do that you couldn't do before.

Expectations change uniquely when it comes to computers.

------
IdiocyInAction
The phones? Definitely. I am not using my phone for more than internet
surfing, reading the occasional PDF and messaging. Why would I pay 1000€ for a
phone then.

The laptops: I could imagine buying one in the future. Linux has its warts and
I am very accustomed to developing on Unix these days. But the current line
seems to have problems and the touch bar would have to go.

------
throw03172019
I still love iOS and macOS but I cringe when ever they add gimmicky features
that do nothing but bloat the software.

I haven’t looked at the new MacBooks the same ever since I was FORCED to buy a
MBP with a useless TouchBar if I want the updated hardware specs.

------
what-the-grump
I got a pixel 3 last year, iPhone user since the 3gs. I dont miss my iPhone.
The first month was tough, now when I have to use an iPhone or touch one, I
feel lost and like I am holding a clunky toy.

Oh yeah, I got the pixel because there is no way I'm paying $1000 for a phone.

~~~
scarface74
So if you go to Apple’s websites right now, there are 5 phones that cost less
than a $1000.

~~~
what-the-grump
And what about 6 months ago? I bought two of the latest flagship phones from
google at the maximum size for $1200 with one trade in.

I dont see myself using an iPhone in future unless its a company phone that I
don't purchase.

What I really like and feature I was not expecting at all, texting from my PC,
really nice to able to do that.

~~~
scarface74
Prices haven’t changed in six months.

------
aiyodev
You have to calculate the cost/time. If you do, Apple products are a steal.

I once saw someone complain about the price of a MacBook Air on Reddit and,
based on how long they used their current one, determined they were spending
less for it than a Netflix subscription.

------
samfisher83
They have always been expensive. I don't think that has really changed.

------
ohiovr
It is getting cheaper for me since I don't need anything more fancy than an
iPhone 6.

------
supradu
Absolutely not. Apple is junk. I bought my first Mac more than 10 years ago
and this year I changed to Linux.

I cannot believe I was into this company and their draconian practices all
over the world. Why anyone would work for this company is a mystery to me. The
sooner they die the better and this will happen..

------
luxpir
Ee

~~~
luxpir
Ignore this comment - unauthorised access to HN account by 12-month old
hacker. Have apprehended and reprimanded said miscreant.

