
I think I’m done with HN - smacktoward
https://twitter.com/jalefkowit/status/1275615151891365888
======
dang
> _while any mention of the fate of George Floyd and so many others who have
> suffered and died at the hands of police gets aggressively removed from
> discussion_

That's not even close to true—not by orders of magnitude and football fields.
This seems like a classic of the notice-dislike bias
([https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment)):
you've seen things that you didn't like in one discussion and weighted it more
heavily than the by-far-most-discussed theme on HN of the last month.

That bias is so powerful that I'm not sure I've seen even a single
counterexample, and it seems to make objective assessment impossible. I don't
know what to do about it. We can't remove everything that somebody
dislikes—there would be nothing left—but the presence of material that people
dislike makes them draw extremely distorted conclusions. I believe this is an
outcome of HN being a non-siloed site. Most other places on the internet, you
choose your silo so you're surrounded by friendly views and don't encounter so
many nasty things. Here, everyone's in one silo and it creates a shock
experience. This leads people to dramatically false conclusions, but it
doesn't matter because they feel intensely true. I wrote about this recently
here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098).

~~~
dang
Sorry for the wall of links, but I want it to be clear that what the OP says
is at the far end of the swimming pool from the truth. HN has had massive
discussion about George Floyd, BLM, the protests, police brutality, race
relations in the US, and related topics. I bet we'd have to go back to
Snowden/NSA in Summer 2013 to find something comparable.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23614128](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23614128)
was on the front page all day today. Edit (12 hours later):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23628394](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23628394)
is on the front page now. Below is a sample of other major threads on these
topics. There are many more, but I suppose 52 is enough to make the point.

There are over 15k comments in these 52 threads alone. Let's double that and
guess that there have been 30k comments on George Floyd-related themes. (I
think that's conservative, since I came up with these 52 threads by ad hoc
searching and there have been many others.) There have been 283k total
comments on HN since George Floyd was killed (counting [dead] comments, which
is generous since most readers don't see them), so if my guess is reasonable
then over 10% of the comments on HN have been on these themes. On a site that
seeks to avoid repetition, that is beyond massive.

For comparison, I picked the most popular technical topic I could think of,
which is Rust. There have been 2664 comments on posts with 'Rust' in the title
over the same time period—an order of magnitude less. When you're 10x bigger
than Rust on HN, and someone calls that "aggressively removed from
discussion", we seem to have left behind shared reality.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23522602](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23522602)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23579438](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23579438)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23540162](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23540162)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23528224](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23528224)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23488307](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23488307)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23484574](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23484574)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23461607](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23461607)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23406844](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23406844)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23409370](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23409370)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23393914](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23393914)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23399533](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23399533)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23390707](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23390707)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23385741](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23385741)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23397868](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23397868)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23392393](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23392393)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23379910](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23379910)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23384556](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23384556)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23379397](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23379397)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23369873](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23369873)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23355572](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23355572)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23347155](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23347155)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23352785](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23352785)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23474974](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23474974)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23467912](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23467912)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23445980](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23445980)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23382954](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23382954)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23373329](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23373329)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23371048](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23371048)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23348464](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23348464)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564048](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564048)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23443410](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23443410)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23504445](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23504445)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23442294](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23442294)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23432463](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23432463)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23428606](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23428606)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23428432](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23428432)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23424245](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23424245)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23415447](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23415447)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23391669](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23391669)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23386626](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23386626)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23385727](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23385727)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23382573](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23382573)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23349294](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23349294)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23604277](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23604277)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23599081](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23599081)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23586791](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23586791)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23586228](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23586228)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23556608](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23556608)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23544749](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23544749)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23491226](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23491226)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23482979](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23482979)

------
andrewxdiamond
I am pretty confused. What kindof discussion is expected? Searching for
"police" or "BLM" on the site brings up many heavily commented threads.

Do they know the site has a search function? I didn't for a while. There's a
search box on the bottom of the page

------
asveikau
On some of those peak days of BLM protests, I came on here and it was like the
whole thing wasn't happening. It did seem strange.

If nothing else people here should stop pretending they're above the
zeitgeist. How many others remember the slashdot threads on 9/11, for example?
This is a big defining moment in our times worth more conscious observance.
Tech cares too.

~~~
idiocratic
Maybe HN (and the web) has become less US-centric and more global? In Europe
the issue is marginal to say the least, in Asia I believe they don't even
consider it news-worthy, and so on. The opposite of "defining" for most of the
planet.

~~~
hckr_news
Weren’t Europeans on the street marching in solidarity? I wouldn’t dismiss it
entirely as a US issue.

~~~
loopz
Global solidarity demos against racism gets lost on US-only centrism.

------
HeyZuess
As someone who is not American, the BLM issues while important are not really
something which I see needing to dominate every form of media I consume,
especially those dedicated to more technology related issues.

It is also nice to have a broad range of topics which are intellectual based
also. Given the emotional nature of the protests, it wouldn't be surprising
that if such a topic was left unmoderated it would lead to a lot of mirrored
content and information.

------
legohead
There are plenty of appropriate places to talk about BLM and other world
events. Just because the community here may not be focused on it doesn't make
it a bad community. Frankly, when sociological discussions show up here it's
kind of awkward.

~~~
joe-collins
Perhaps they're awkward because they're unpracticed.

In most tech threads, the top comments are often those with an insider opinion
or "back in my day" tale. A sociological thread doesn't typically lend itself
to those. And I assume HN has a far smaller proportion of experts (and less
motivation to snag that ego boost from flaunting wisdom) on the trending
topics (e.g. black persons and other victims of police brutality) than it
would for, say, such-and-such Ruby feature.

------
azhu
As a younger person, I agree, it is very disappointing. I would've guessed YC
more prescient than to not realize there are tectonic cultural shifts heavily
worth deep discussion happening.

I've noticed that sometimes, when people rise through ranks or otherwise
mature in the world of business, they become disconnected from regular
humanity and forget that emotions are real signals.

~~~
free_rms
(since this whole story is flagged)

As an older person, this is another iteration of the same shit and
unfortunately nothing will change.

Part of the reason it won't change is that a bunch of upper-class white people
try to make it all about their sociological theories instead of the really
simple premise of "cops aren't accountable and that's not ok". They're
spending their effort going after Scott Alexander, who's generally on their
side on this stuff, for his insufficient group loyalty. It's a total self-own,
constantly from these people, and it plays right into the cops' hands.

We're up against a lot of resistance and there's no room for selfishness like
that.

~~~
gnusty_gnurc
Yea anti-racism is a modern religion. It's counterproductive, and I expect a
net-negative backlash than useful reform and change. No longer is it ok to
affirm the human dignity and the equality of minorities. Racism is _assumed
globally_ so the question now becomes how is a person instantiating racism,
not if a person is instantiating racism. It's screwed up and bizarre.

~~~
zozbot234
It's _especially_ screwed up and bizarre because this whole fuzzy, religious
outlook thoroughly obscures the relevance of _real, actual, systemic racism_
in the workings of institutions like criminal justice (including policing) in
the United States. Here you have the _clearest_ argument for systemic racism
being a real dynamic even in a developed, largely-free country like the U.S.
(and presumably it's no coincidence that CRT, from which we get this notion in
the first place, originated from a subfield of _legal_ studies), and yet you
probably wouldn't know this from looking at the progressive debate on this
issue, which simply sticks to its meaningless, mindless religious tropes.
Quite mind-boggling.

------
yongjik
Not sure why anybody's upset that HN didn't have much discussion on, above
anything, George Floyd. HN discourages (and always discouraged) "me too" style
remarks, like "Oh that's awful", "that's outrageous", or "that's gross
injustice!" But exactly what other reasonable opinions are available here?

I mean, would _you_ want to see people discussing here whether Derek Chauvin
was justified in killing George Floyd? Because I don't.

~~~
bichiliad
I think there's a lot more to discuss other than Derek Chauvin's culpability.
HN is full of really bright people; I'd love to hear what they think about
tech's role in enabling police brutality like this to exist, and what is in
our capacity to do to help solve the problem.

~~~
yongjik
And if I search for "police" I see 5 discussions with 100+ comments in the
past week alone! So I think there's a lot of discussion regarding police
brutality, just not about Floyd's murder itself. (Well, I guess some people
might wish HN had even more discussion on police brutality, but we're veering
into meta-meta-discussion.)

------
kangnkodos
I don't think there are enough threads on HN saying that vegans are right, and
evil egg-eating vegetarians are wrong. Therefore, I have concluded that HN is
a den of evil egg eaters. I just don't feel safe reading opinions of people
who have their moral compass compromised in this way.

So I think I too am done with HN.

------
aiscapehumanity
Done with caring about comments here that aren't links to resources. Karma
system is dysfunctional, and socialization here isn't too meaningful coupled
with the guidelines. I'm about to lose points, but as far as I am concerned
real community here is dead. But I respect the decision to leave.

~~~
loopz
[https://hckrnews.com/](https://hckrnews.com/) or use search

------
free_rms
There's been about a thread a day about BLM. There's been one thread, one day
about Scott Alexander.

------
loopz
Probably upset mods are effective, and can't be bothered to search or use
[https://hckrnews.com/](https://hckrnews.com/)

------
s9w
"And I think I’m done with it" and posts on HN. This topic was discussed to
death - right now the story right under this is another tech company yielding
to the speech police mob by doing another master branch rename. This topic has
suffocated anything of relevance in the last weeks.

~~~
scollet
> anything of relevance

What about this discussion is not relevant? I remember HN getting over COVID
about a month ago too.

~~~
s9w
It's against the rules for one - but those only apply to some.

~~~
loopz
All stories by time [https://hckrnews.com/](https://hckrnews.com/) and search.
The final sorted daily list ofc won't go against site policy. Lots of these
political stories each day though, some of them heavily posted.

------
Antoninus
Flag this accordingly.

------
cmdshiftf4
> Appeal to authority with internet points

> Moan that HN won't support you spilling your politics that already fill your
> twitter feed over into the site, despite many alternatives existing

> Recognize it's a free site and it can do what it wants

> Assert it's wrong, and doing wrong, by disagreeing with you, that voice of
> karma-provided authority

> Post your Twitter rant to HN for attention

> HN democratically removes your rant

> Whimper on Twitter that HN, the site you're apparently done with, aren't
> facilitating your anti-HN rants, implicitly encouraging your following to do
> some bandwagoning

God only knows what drama this person would be capable of if HN kowtowed and
facilitated their self-approved topics for discussion.

Why ask for Reddit 2.0 when you can just stick to Reddit.com?

~~~
blaser-waffle
Indeed. This is a stripped down tech news aggregator for niche audiences.

A thread or two on big cultural trends of the day makes sense but this isn't
reddit or twitter.

------
akvadrako
I see the opposite; I think there are too many posts and comments about BLM.
They are also heavily skewed in support of the movement, so anything skeptical
gets flagged/downvoted.

It seems like this user demands a silo where his views are not questioned.
Certainly HN is better without people like that.

------
thechosenblerd
That's the unfortunate reality of the tech community and really privilege
itself. It's uncomfortable to acknowledge the misfortunes of others. It's a
sad norm of American culture, especially when it pertains to black people.

~~~
dang
I agree with you about it being uncomfortable to acknowledge the misfortune of
others. We could go deeply into that question. But I hope you're aware that
the claims the OP made are not true at all—HN has had dozens of threads and
tens of thousands of comments on the cluster of topics related to George Floyd
(BLM, protests, police brutality, racism). This has been the most-discussed
theme of the past month by far, supplanting coronavirus, and 10x more
discussed than any of the most popular technical topics.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962)

------
badrabbit
Oh wow, this made it to the front page and it just got flagged! I was going to
say how i really don't care about mainstream news topics worming their way to
HN but man, this is crazy. I understand downvotes and bans but flagging this
and shadowbans are hitting below the belt.

Is this site for the intellectually dishonest? If not this b.s. needs to stop.
How many "I quit facebook" posts make it to the front page all the time? How
many social activism related topics make it to the front page. Counter
argument to those who say it's not relevant: technology made these protests
possible and technlogy is where the fight is happening right now.

I hope the moderator team (@dang) pays attention to this.

~~~
dang
I did pay attention, because the OP's claims are false. When people say false
things about HN and try to gin up outrage with them, I unfortunately feel
obliged to respond.

If you haven't seen these comments, and are willing to read them, I'd be
curious to hear if you feel like there's anything that remains unaddressed. I
listed 52 threads but it could just as easily have been 102.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624916](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624916)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962)

Since you mention intellectual honesty: do you think the OP or any of the
people who jumped to the same false conclusions will correct anything? I would
be surprised if they did, even though acknowledging a mistake of this nature
is the bare minimum that intellectual honesty requires.

Edit: on reflection, that last bit crossed a line and I owe the OP an apology.
It's one thing to go on about intellectual honesty in general but there was a
specific person in the mix and I should have left more room for the
possibility that I was misunderstanding him, especially since I know how easy
that is on the internet. I was doing the very thing I was complaining
about—jumping to conclusions! Sometimes it takes a while to realize this, but
it's embarrassingly obvious now. I've told the OP that I'm sorry, and want to
say so publicly also.

~~~
Rochus
So you don't like it when people accuse you unjustly either. I can understand
that.

~~~
dang
It's more about people accusing HN unjustly. The structure of the forum leads
people to false conclusions very easily—I wrote about this at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098).
It's easy for people to get stuck in a negative distortion which doesn't
benefit anybody.

We can look at and acknowledge the problems on HN—certainly there are many
problems—and at the same time see that there is also something unusually
creative and positive at its core. I think the way for this positive core to
develop further is for the community to get a more accurate reflection of
itself.

