
University Students are Afraid of Everything - plg
https://jpminda.wordpress.com/2015/08/11/university-students-are-afraid-of-everything/
======
a_bonobo
Are there actually any numbers for this supposed infantilization? It seems to
me that the number of people complaining about unis being not PC enough is
relatively equal to the number of people complaining about the first group.
(edit: had a logical mistake here)

Sometimes very small, very loud groups can be perceived by outsiders to be
more influential than they actually are.

There some to be some more mix-ups in this rant:

>According to some universities, these counsellors provide “customer support”.

This is more an indictment of the sad state of student/university relationship
- you pay so much, you're a customer, not a student.

>Final exam time at many large universities is when this infantilization
really comes out. Students will literally walk around in public wearing their
sleeping clothes and sweats. They nap in the library or in the hallway of
academic buildings during normal work hours

That's not infantilization, that's just laziness and a short way to the dorm.
Sleeping in a university during "normal work hours" (gasp!) has been normal
for decades.

>Education is not trauma

Maybe it didn't use to be a trauma - but in the time of more and more focus on
grades and GPAs, forced student competition, "career days", CV polishing
courses, mandatory unpaid internships, i.e., ageneral shift from the
university as a place that creates politically mature citizens to a place that
churns out better trained cogs for companies, education may have become
trauma.

~~~
mcphage
> Are there actually any numbers for this supposed infantilization? It seems
> to me that the number of people complaining about unis being not PC enough
> is relatively equal to the number of people complaining about the first
> group.

Isn't this the same response we hear every time someone else speaks out about
this? "This is just the work of a few bad eggs. If this was a widespread
problem, why aren't we hearing about more of it?" Which, yeah, the first few
times people have made this complaint, I agreed with. But it has started to
ring hollow.

> Sometimes very small, very loud groups can be perceived by outsiders

I don't think the author here is an outsider—they're a professor at a
university where this is happening.

~~~
a_bonobo
I can see your first point, but I still have to see yet any quantification (a
shift in questionnaire answers towards more "PC" over the decades, for
example), until then I remain unconvinced.

Most cases in the author's article have to do with other universities - about
the author's university, he complains about "counselors" (again, I think
that's a financial incentive for the university - "customer support", happy
customers study longer therefore pay more, special customers for groups who
normally don't study -> more students from that group -> more money), and
people in pajamas, which isn't really a problem that I can understand.

Now that I've re-read it, it's a bit weird that a psychologist writes a
sentence like this:

> It seems that Harvard students, for whom the average grade is A- need more
> help.

If you're expected to have an average of A- by your peers, teachers and
professors of other universities then I'd expect the pressure to be enormous,
of course you'll see more problems with mental health!

>I must ensure that every every disability is accommodated.

The poor man!

~~~
matt-attack
>I must ensure that every every disability is accommodated.

>> The poor man!

Did you not read the next sentence? The point was that most of the
"disabilities" are bunk:

> Most disabilities that I am asked to accommodate seem to be unspecified and
> are remedied by providing the students with a separate, quiet location and
> an extra 30 minutes to take an exam.

~~~
a_bonobo
He doesn't prove that they are bunk - there are just many disabilities out
there where a separate room is helpful. (edit: in fact, an extra room + bit of
extra time is the only available accommodation for disabled that unis tend to
give out, so of course that's the "remedy")

For example, someone with a spine injury with a only partially functioning
bladder may need to urinate a few times during a long exam. If he/she's not
around students, he/she can do that using a bottle and doesn't need to waste
any more time wheeling back and forth to the bathroom. (I have a friend in a
wheelchair who used to do this during exams). Visually impaired may not be
able to write or read on their own so they have someone read them the
questions and dictate the answers, which disturbs other students if they'd be
in the same room.

AFAIK if you need a different room then the disability has to be documented to
the university with a medical letter, but I can't find that requirement at the
author's uni page so maybe that uni doesn't.

~~~
chestervonwinch
> AFAIK if you need a different room then the disability has to be documented
> to the university with a medical letter, but I can't find that requirement
> at the author's uni page so maybe that uni doesn't.

Just to add to this:

I'm a TA and have been a lecturer a few times for courses at my uni. There is
a whole registration process that the student and professor must go through.
I'd estimate (in my limited experience) it's usually only 1 in 30-50 students
who request extra accommodation. I suppose there are some that use it to take
advantage. However, there are social implications of having special
accommodations that naturally work to off set those who might take advantage
these allowances.

------
netcan
Calling some of this infantilization is kind of sad.

Walking around in slippers and napping wherever is a consequence of freedom
from social conventions, or at least an environment where social conventions
are anomalous and rapidly changing. So is promiscuity, once called free love.
These are things that universities have always been havens for. Others things
(puppy rooms) are experimental, also an artifact of a nonconformist and
liberal environment.

Students and academics have more license to be quirky and eccentric than
lawyers and soccer moms. That's a good thing.

I also cringe when I here about PC student audiences that can't tolerate stand
up comedy. It all feels like a part of the recreational righteous rage, liking
to be right and pointing at the kid that said the C-word.

OTOH, it's also a side effect of effective social movements that take place at
universities. If I look back at social movements that universities played
major roles in, I don't think they've been bad. Attitudes towards queers and
trannies have changed so much in my lifetime. Amazingly. There is tremendous
support and solidarity from the public. It's a breathtaking rise in collective
conscience. If I'm going to be yelled at by 19 year olds for saying "tranny"
but we get to a point where transexuals can work and live normally,
homosexuals can have families…. I'll take it.

Part of the way that is achieved intolerance towards "assholes," homophobes,
xenophobes, sexists. Students, being young and insufferable spray that all
around. Long term though, it sticks mostly where it should.

But yea, I agree. Young people are annoying.

~~~
thecyborganizer
> Attitudes towards queers and trannies have changed so much in my lifetime.

"Tranny" is a vicious slur against trans people, on par with "faggot" for a
gay person or "nigger" for a black person. Please edit your post.

~~~
Roboprog
Seriously? Maybe you are trolling, to reinforce the point of the article.
Otherwise, in context, I think using those words helped make the point of the
attitude shift over time.

------
dataker
Might be a rare experience, but as a South American in an U.S university, I
couldn't relate to many American Latinos for their neurotic concern with micro
aggressions.

Jokes that would be seen as amusing in my country were taken as a personal
insult and avoided at all costs. Many interesting non-latinos would gradually
be excluded for no reason.

Ironically, I fostered relationships with apparently "racist white males" who
were more concerned with the content of conversations than 'fighting the
enemy'.

~~~
eugenekolo2
From my experiences the idea of microaggression is more common in people of
more suburban-like American lifestyles. As an immigrant, and friend of many
different immigrants in America, the idea of anybody being offended, or taking
things as a personal insult is nearly unheard of. But, people who may not know
many people of different backgrounds seem to think they should be offended,
and take things personally.

~~~
mercer
I agree. I've generally been part of groups that were very mixed as far as
culture, sexual preference, or skin color goes, and most of our interactions
went well beyond 'micro-aggression' right into overt racism, misogyny, anti-
semitism, and whatnot. I've found that the more mixed the group was, the more
of this kind of stuff happened and the less sensitive people seemed to be
about it.

And to be clear, that's just an observation. As a white, male, highly-educated
person I try to avoid judgements or too many opinions on this issue.

------
dpcan
I love the part about students walking around in their pajamas at the library
during finals week. The "puppy room" sounds utterly ridiculous.

It's been a long time, but this happened at my University too. It was just
part of the relentless competition among students to make other students think
THEY had it so much harder than anyone else. It was like a badge of honor to
be taking a 300 level class as a freshmen, or have to study all night long, or
to be starving because you had so little money.

I did the same thing.

And when you get out of college, it just transfers over to parenting.

New parents walking around in sweat pants and their hair a mess to show that
they got no sleep due to the newborn. Then when you have 4 kids, you like to
pack 300 lbs of kid crap around with you to show that you have WAY more kids
than that new parent, or you talk about how many sports you are taking your
kids to, how big your grocery bill is, or whatever. It's all so silly. I'm not
sure why we seek this recognition.

I'm wondering what comes after parenting at this point... I'm assuming wealth
and how we use our freedom among other empty-nesters???

EDIT:

I'd like to state that I actually don't find any problem with much of this, I
just don't understand it.

When we are in college, we are facing the most challenging courses and living
situations we have ever faced to this point. We are learning from books, and
how to handle life's struggles.

As a new parent, having a newborn completely uproots your life, and it IS
incredibly challenging. EVERYTHING has changed at this point.

Then with lots of kids, yes, it too is crazy.

From then on, I have no idea.

And the "puppy room", well, to each their own.

~~~
scott_s
You are _interpreting_ behaviors in other people (hair a mess, sweat pants,
lots of stuff) as a status signal. And it may be. But it's also possible that
they are not trying to signal a particular kind of status, and are just trying
to cope with challenges in their life.

~~~
saint_fiasco
I may be talking out of my ass here, but I think college educated people don't
have lots of kids by accident.

The challenge is purely self-inflicted, so it's natural to assume they get
something out of it, and status is the most obvious motivation.

Then again, they might be one of those weird mutants who actually like
children.

~~~
untog
If you dislike children, you're statistics that you're the weird mutant, not
the other way around.

~~~
saint_fiasco
Yeah, the last part was bad sarcasm.

I'm not an evolutionary psychologist, but I imagine the only thing stronger
than a social animal's desire for status would have to be their desire for
children.

------
sandworm101
Law Students at a proper Law School /= "University Students"

Law students are both sensitive and not. I remember many times students crying
while we discussed cases of rape, child murder and domestic violence. As one
prof pointed out: "We have over 100 people in the room. Statistically speaking
we must have many rape victims, and more than a few perpetrators."

Students cried, but they certainly did not suggest that topics not be taught.
Students at professional schools (law/medicine etc) have committed to a
profession with a known body of knowledge developed over hundreds, arguably
thousands of years. They would not want that very expensive education to be
curtailed for the very modern concept that is political correctness.

~~~
rhino369
I graduated lawschool only 2 years ago, has it really changed to the point
where people would cry in class? I did go to a school that required work
experience, so the class was mostly above 24, maybe that made it different.

~~~
sandworm101
I graduated 10+ years ago.

The first tears I remember appeared in the first couple crimlaw lectures. I
won't go into the facts, but it was a discussion of Keeler (2 Cal.3d 619) that
ramped up the emotions for some.

Take any law class. A hundred adults in their mid twenties in one room. That's
fifty females. Chances are that at least one of them is pregnant, probably
more than one. And there are plenty of parents of both genders. Nobody thinks
less of them for being a little more emotional than the norm when forced to
addresses certain cases. Nor would they expect the curriculum to be altered.

------
danharaj
The attitude I'm detecting here is this: A University is an institution, and
how dare its constituents feel like they have the right to determine its
culture and how it accommodates them. Students must bow to professors. They
must accept the diseased puritan work ethic that infects American culture at
all levels, whose main political forces are conservatism and other reactionary
politics. If you are suffering, it's your fault and no one owes you any
consideration. Crush the individual because the institution, the society, the
culture owes them nothing.

This is an authoritarian reaction. People in power complaining that they are
losing their power, their place in a hierarchy that places the student body as
subordinate to them.

How about this as an alternative point of view: University Students demand
respect and a supportive environment. Professors balk at the idea of treating
them like there is any merit to their opinions on how they should be treated;
reduce them to disparaging caricatures.

~~~
danharaj
As a follow-up, there is a massive lack of empathy in the attitude expressed
by the author.

How does anyone know what others are feeling, except when they tell us what
they're feeling? This article isn't about how university students are acting
like children. It's painting university students as children in order to
dismiss their behavior. If you actually wanted to know what university
students are doing and why, you'd talk to them. Instead, this article is
condescending, patronizing, and (ironically) infantilizing.

To give no trust is to get no trust. If you don't trust university students to
act as adults with their own autonomy who can make the best decisions for
themselves, which includes effecting the environment and social structures
that benefit them most, then, congratulations, you're an authoritarian and
have just discarded the basic tenets of liberalism, right libertarianism, left
libertarianism (i.e. anarchism), communism, and socialism. After eradicating
most post-enlightenment ideas of how to treat people as human beings, what are
you left with?

I reiterate: If you treat someone like a child, you're not engaging them. You
are dismissing them. And if you treat someone like a child in order to justify
a hierarchy and power structure above them, it is very, very clear what
historical examples you are following.

~~~
fleitz
" If you don't trust university students to act as adults with their own
autonomy who can make the best decisions for themselves, which includes
effecting the environment and social structures that benefit them most, then,
congratulations, you're an authoritarian and have just discarded the basic
tenets of liberalism, right libertarianism, left libertarianism (i.e.
anarchism), communism, and socialism. After eradicating most post-
enlightenment ideas of how to treat people as human beings, what are you left
with?"

Not really, many horrible governments have been democratically elected, don't
you think it's a good thing that the north told the south that they don't have
the right to decide what's good for them? Do you not feel that it's good that
the 'free world' told Russia & Germany what is good for them?

There are many example through history of one people telling another that they
don't know what's good for them and it being regarded later as a good thing.

~~~
danharaj
I think you can disagree with people and come into conflict with them, even
violent conflict, while still treating them as fully autonomous advocates for
themselves. The issue I took was with the mentality that you can ascribe
childish, or sub-autonomous agency to another person in order to discredit
them and justify dominating them. Slavery, actually, is an example of such
pernicious ideas applied to the relation of slave and slave owner. This sort
of reasoning is only legitimate in authoritarian philosophies that treat
people as at best illegitimately autonomous, needing some sort of patriarchal
figure to dictate their lives to them.

In your examples you are making the unspoken assumption, for example, that
black slaves were part of the political body that kept them in slavery. Yes,
if you look at it as an issue between North and South, it looks like the North
telling the South what to do for itself, but that seems completely wrong
because we are putting the lots of slaves and slave owners together as if they
were one coherent entity.

In a world where freedom of association holds, I believe my statement would
hold to the limit that many, many actions we take that seem only to affect us
also affect others, and to the limit that freedom of association, like all
freedoms, is incoherent in its absolute limit.

~~~
fleitz
I would hardly characterize exposing people to opinions/facts they dislike /
are made uncomfortable by as domination.

It's a simple fact that if you have to have an anxiety attack because you hear
things you don't like that you are incapable of emotional self-regulation,
hence behaving like a child, hence being referred to as childish. The only
thing I would say is unfair about characterizing the behavior as childish is
that it is an insult to those under 18 that are able to emotionally self-
regulate.

It's a reasonable expectation of adults that they are able to regulate their
own emotions and hear phrases like "America is the land of opportunity"
without having an emotional breakdown.

------
kelukelugames
Maybe we have overcorrected but things were pretty shitty back in the author's
day. In the 90's, awful comments against gays and Asian people appeared often
as "jokes" in mainstream media. And media guides how people act.

I don't like the term micro-aggressions. It should just be called tactlessness
or rudeness. For example, coworkers at my last job made jokes about cops
pulling over and harassing in front of black employees. Best case that's
insensitive. Worst case that's some dogwhistle bullshit.

On the flip side, people got reported to HR for saying the "s" word. Yes,
shit. I think the line is somewhere in the middle. All of us need to be a
little bit more aware and a little bit less touchy.

~~~
omouse
I've heard the word "gay" used as an insulting term at my job a few times now
in the last 6 months. The last time I heard that was...online from 13 year
olds playing Call of Duty. It's definitely nice to be in environments where
all these racist, homophobic terms and insults and "jokes" are no longer
around.

------
qntty
The author of this post seems to be on another planet. For example, the "play,
dog, music, and other therapy" that he is disapproves of comprises maybe 0.05%
of the experience of final exams for students (that is, a student might stop
to pet a puppy for 5 minutes at some point during finals). The rest of the
experience is almost entirely unchanged. He paints it as if it comprises 50%
of the experience, like students look forward to exams so they can pet
puppies.

~~~
talmand
It's a growing trend though. Plus, based on news accounts, these are the vocal
minority groups that affect a great deal of people's day-to-day campus life.
For instance, they chase off speakers that don't care to hear nor want anyone
else to hear.

~~~
qntty
The only trend that seems to really be growing to me is the willingness of
people to sympathize with marginalized groups of people. This is not based on
some out-there notions that all people should be comfortable all the time. An
idea like that would never survive, except in the minds of a small number of
extremeists. The overall trend, toward a society that is more willing to make
accommodations for those who need them most, is actually positive. You won't
see people who write these sorts of articles praising the big picture though.
They are only interested in criticizing cases where it goes too far, but
people taking an idea too far is not a new phenomenon. As people learn to
grapple with changing social norms, I don't see any reason to think that cases
like these will tend to go away, and we will be left with positive change.

~~~
fredfoobar42
Exactly. I'm 30, and I'm heartened by the idea of the next generation coming
up with a culture that's more compassionate towards people who are different
from them in various ways. For people in the HN demographic, behaving with
compassion is clearly an inconvenience.

~~~
talmand
That's a mighty broad brush you have there. I, for one, do not know the many
people on HN nor do I claim to know their thoughts and feelings on different
matters. I guess I'll refer to you when a question like that comes up in the
future.

Anyway, I too like the idea of younger generations growing up with more
compassion towards people that are different. I raise my children with that in
mind, believe it or not. But what much of what we're seeing coming out of
college campuses in the US is not something I want my children to learn. I
won't raise them as perpetual victims offended at anything and everything and
I sure won't raise them to be unable to deal with an opposing viewpoint
without falling back on a shut down the discussion mentality. Which is what
the author is actually complaining about in the article.

~~~
fredfoobar42
Some opinions aren't worth having a discussion about. If someone says that
"all fags should be rounded up and shot" there's nothing discussion worthy
there. A rape survivor is under no obligation to have a discussion with
someone who says "all rape victims deserve it, or are liars, or both."

These are extreme examples to be sure, but the principle remains.

And nobody is saying "you can't say 'all fags should be shot.'" They're saying
'You can't say it _here_." Freedom of speech is not freedom to be heard.

~~~
talmand
Using extreme examples does not prove a point. Especially when one of them
advocates criminal violence.

Saying I don't want to hear what you have to say and actively preventing
speech are two completely different things. If a group of students don't want
to hear a speaker, they have the right to not show up. They don't have the
right to prevent the speech from happening. I don't know if you intended it,
but your response is an effort to change the context of what I stated.

"Freedom of speech is not freedom to be heard" is what people actively
preventing free speech fall back on to justify their actions against the
speaker. Not that I'm lumping you in with that way of thinking, just pointing
it out.

------
cmiles74
If this is a real problem, addressing it at the college level seems far, far
too late. Also, while the author hammers on their point that "education is not
trauma", I am not inclined to agree without giving it more thought.

All I have is anecdotes but they are troubling. A couple of weeks ago I spoke
with a second grader who was brought to tears at the thought of upcoming
testing (state required assessment). My immediate thought was something along
the lines of "Just do the best you can", but the question remains: where was
this anxiety coming from: parents, teachers, both? In this case, education was
very clearly trauma for this individual.

Perhaps the "helicopter parents" are doing more harm than good, that seems
likely. At the same time, perhaps round after round of assessment testing is
hurting as well. And universities seeking to coddle their students, perhaps to
keep them "happy customers" but also to keep them ignorant of their overall
costs.

In any case, it's not entirely clear that "education is not trauma", this
article itself seems to contradict that thesis.

~~~
danharaj
Education absolutely is trauma in a hierarchical society. The whole point of
education is to beat children into the mold that fits society's expectations
and needs, not their own. You can't expect anything else out of institutions
based on domination and authority.

> Public school teachers are in much the same position as prison wardens.
> Wardens' main concern is to keep the prisoners on the premises. They also
> need to keep them fed, and as far as possible prevent them from killing one
> another. Beyond that, they want to have as little to do with the prisoners
> as possible, so they leave them to create whatever social organization they
> want. From what I've read, the society that the prisoners create is warped,
> savage, and pervasive, and it is no fun to be at the bottom of it.

> In outline, it was the same at the schools I went to. The most important
> thing was to stay on the premises. While there, the authorities fed you,
> prevented overt violence, and made some effort to teach you something. But
> beyond that they didn't want to have too much to do with the kids. Like
> prison wardens, the teachers mostly left us to ourselves. And, like
> prisoners, the culture we created was barbaric.

\- Paul Graham, Why Nerds are Unpopular

~~~
tomp
> The whole point of education is to beat children into the mold that fits
> society's expectations and needs, not their own.

I'm not sure I agree. I think I grew up as an emotionally mature, successful
(so far), yet quite unusual person, despite having been schooled for a long
time and acing most of the formal requirements of the institutions.

My parents always said, "trust us, you need to go to school" even though I
didn't want to (I mean, obviously, I had a computer and games and a
compiler!), but now I agree with them - back then, I couldn't imagine the
perspective, breath, width, emotional maturity and social development that
further years of schooling would give me, and I couldn't appreciate the extent
to which schooling, vocation and other long-term choices that we make (or are
guided towards) as completely inexperienced adolescents will shape the future
60-80 years of my life (I'm only about 10 years down the road so far, but the
signs and directions are much more obvious now).

Sure, some amount of authority is necessary, but that's mainly because people,
especially children, will otherwise go for short-term pleasure without
thinking about the longer term. But saying that school _molds_ children in any
way is quite a stretch in my opinion - a better way of putting it would be
that it shows them different possibilities and enables them to be better
informed before choosing which direction to take in life.

------
cryoshon
"“In my day” (I’m old now, my day was the late 80s early 90s), you visited the
registrar’s office. A financial aid office. The bursars office. I felt like an
adult, making decisions and finding things out for myself… But now there are
counsellors for everything. Counsellors. As if the very act of registering for
a class is traumatic event for which the student needs counselling. According
to some universities, these counsellors provide “customer support”. That’s
Ohio State’s term, not mine."

Wow, this feels really out of place. When I was in school from 2006-2011,
there was definitively no feelings of being an adult permitted. The university
encouraged parents to make any kind of financial aid / money related
decisions, and encouraged leaving the students out of it. There were
counselors for their use, if they were needed. Definitely agree with the gist
of the author. On the other hand, people have been complaining about the
weakness of the youth since Socrates, so I'm not sure that this article is
signal rather than noise.

As far as exams being stressful, I'd say it's fine to give students a break
and let them handle the stress however it helps. For most, it's their first
exposure to "serious" evaluation of their work, and it is a bit daunting
because their decisions are ineffable once made. Of course, the stress-
mitigation strategies that the students learn during this time period are
essential to their growth-- this isn't focused on enough, IMO. After being in
the workforce for a while, exam time seems more like a vacation from stress
rather than a stressful time to me. I wish that I had been able to pet a nice
puppy during exam time.

I also wish that there were a "phase 2" of college to be taken after 5-10
years in the workforce. The education of having to provide for yourself
imparts a lot of discipline and enthusiasm that I really could have used as a
student. I could probably get eight bachelors' degrees in the time it took me
to get two the first time around. College was a step in the maturation process
for me-- a step that was a bit too small as a result of some of my mother
institution's decisions.

In summary, colleges certainly coddle the students, and the students are eager
to be coddled. But don't be too bitter: the students deserve their youth, too.

~~~
herge
> The education of having to provide for yourself imparts a lot of discipline
> and enthusiasm

I think you have it backwards. Higher learning should impart on you the
discipline and enthusiasm you need for the workforce, and not the other way
around.

~~~
cryoshon
I agree that it should, but it doesn't.

------
AcerbicZero
I was disillusioned with the college experience almost as soon as I began. I
started college in 2007 after ~14 months deployed to Iraq, so it was a
significant culture shock to be dropped into such a coddling environment.

Having to talk to three different people, and sit down for meetings, just to
get the authorization to schedule my classes drove me crazy, while wasting
time with mandatory "awareness" (alcohol, sex, whatever) classes made me
question the point of it all.

In the end I chalked it all up to me being a bitter old 21 year old freshman,
and took the opportunity to talk my way out of as many silly requirements as I
could.

I do feel a bit vindicated seeing others take notice of how emotionally
vulnerable college students have let themselves become, but I still hope there
is a solution which fosters an environment of growth and challenge without
going too far in either direction.

------
cafard
"They nap in the library or in the hallway of academic buildings during normal
work hours."

Wimps! In my day you sat in the back row of the classroom and slept while the
lecture went on.

~~~
andrewmu
I was once voted class representative because I happened to fall asleep at the
front while it was being decided.

------
jpm34
As the author of the original post, I do want to say that I'm not opposed to
accommodations and work hard to make sure students are able to master the
content in my courses. I'm cool with puppy rooms even... I wrote this as a
morning rant. These are just my observations as a mid career professional.
There is just so much of this. The crux of the problem, if there is one, is
the corporatization of the university experience. I wrote an earlier post
about grade inflation that touched on this too...

------
reader5000
The university itself is a massive infantilization, evolved primarily to
financially exploit young adults.

Does anybody really think that smart young adults could not maximize their
potential out in the real world earning actual money, learning on the go.

The university rips young people out of reality for four more years to pamper
them like babies and deprive them of reality in the name of "education"; as if
listening to lectures from middle aged adults has some sort of magical
revelatory power that living life does not.

~~~
sjg007
It gives you a chance to develop your mind and opportunity to reach jobs that
a regular high school education does not prepare you for.

~~~
dataker
The only jobs you need a college education are the ones that are highly
technical, leaning towards Academia.

Most engineers and analysts could learn on the job or with specializations(no
longer than a few months).

------
fredfoobar42
Or, we could take women and minority students at their word about the stuff
they find offensive and hurtful and treat them with a little respect.

Oh, wait, that's too much work. They're just a bunch of whiners.

Edit: Not sure if the downvotes are because people don't get this was
sarcastic, or if people do.

Either way: Try listening to the people complaining instead of just brushing
them off as "whiners". I hope that clears things up.

~~~
code_duck
Unfortunately, just my being a "white NT cishet male" is offensive to some
people. I can neither fix that for them nor take it seriously.

~~~
coldpie
> just my being a "white NT cishet male" is offensive to some people

No, it isn't. They are offended by something else about you.

~~~
vezzy-fnord
Yes, it is. There are people who are intrinsically offended by people of all
races, and some rationalize it with various collective narratives about power
structures. Whether one kvetches about the Zionist Jews or the born-with-
original-sin white men, it isn't practically different.

------
dudul
This is not the first post by an actual professor pointing out this
phenomenon. I've observed it myself as a professional mentoring college
students during internship, but my sample is way smaller than what a professor
can see.

It is indeed a real problem. Everyone feels like they are entitled to be not
only safe, but also "comfortable" at all time. No matter what. Nobody should
judge you, nobody should disagree with you, nobody should make you feel bad
about anything. This is a recipe to create highly dysfunctional adults.

Accepting conflicting opinions, facing rejection, standing for yourself
without calling a twitter mob to the rescue, not seeking constant validation
is part of being a functioning human being.

I'm wondering what is the agenda behind this trend. The author seems to think
that it is to make sure students remain babies and stay in college as long as
possible to avoid facing the real world. Could it really be something that
petty? I started thinking that it could be encouraged by politicians to create
a generation of babies that would feel better about dealing with a nanny-
state.

~~~
dudul
I guess downvoters took my post as a micro-aggression :) Sorry I made you feel
uncomfortable...

~~~
lorenzhs
If I had to guess, I'd say you're being downvoted for the completely
unnecessary "nanny-state" remark at the end.

~~~
dudul
How is it unnecessary? This is a real theory
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanny_state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanny_state)).
The term may seem pejorative, but it is a real agenda pushed by some
parties/groups.

I'm not saying the US currently has a nanny-state (far from it compared to
what is implemented in Europe for example), but this could be a real agenda.

~~~
maus42
>How is it unnecessary? This is a real theory

Well, the way you put it does sound like a conspiracy theory:

>I'm wondering what is the agenda behind this trend. The author seems to think
that it is to make sure students remain babies and stay in college as long as
possible to avoid facing the real world. Could it really be something that
petty? I started thinking that it could be encouraged by politicians to create
a generation of babies that would feel better about dealing with a nanny-
state.

fwiw, I live in a country that probably would be classified as a nanny state,
and the same dynamics are very well present here, too. My personal theory is
that it's far more complicated.

~~~
dudul
It depends on what you mean by conspiracy theory. I don't believe there is
some evil Blofeld patting the cat and pulling strings. I do however believe
that the ruling class is trying to remain in control of the oligarchy, and I
do believe that they have enough power today to drive major political
decisions, including society changes.

So yes, I do believe that if it is true that student infantilization is
trending and institutionalized it's because the ruling class can get some
benefits out of it.

I'm perfectly ready to admit that I'm paranoid :)

------
peterwwillis
You'll notice that this kind of thing only happens in groups where people can
support each other's ideas, regardless of how ridiculous. Tea Partiers who
scream about getting rid of immigrants. Green Peace activists who scream about
getting rid of all uses of oil. Vegans who scream when someone cooks meat near
them. Non-smokers who scream if they have to inhale cigarette smoke for 10
seconds.

There's always an in-group that validates perceived threats to the individual
and amplifies the concern and the response until it reaches a fever pitch, and
it remains there as long as the support base is there.

If it weren't for the fact that somebody has to pay their salaries, professors
could ignore this behavior. Sadly, the academics are going to have to bend if
they want to keep their jobs. It's the same in every other subculture; the mob
gets their way as long as you are beholden to them for something.

~~~
lmartel
Whenever someone makes a point by listing groups of people, they always have
to sneak in a pet issue. Looks like for you it's smoking!

You say "non-smokers" but you mean "normal, default people." Smokers are the
delusional in-group, slowly murdering themselves and those around them with a
remarkably unfun drug. You're welcome to do whatever you want to your own body
but keep it away from others. Imagine what you just said, applied to any other
substance! Non-drinkers who have to drink my beer for 10 seconds? Celiac-
diseasers who have to eat my bread for 10 seconds?

~~~
peterwwillis
Well no, I don't have a "pet issue". And it's ridiculous to compare inhaling
cigarette smoke to pouring beer down someone's throat or feeding gluten to a
gluten-intolerant person. They're all wildly different examples with
completely different consequences.

If you force beer down an alcoholic's throat they may relapse. If they're
gluten-intolerant they could have a severe reaction. And obviously feeding
bread to a gluten-intolerant person will have a serious negative reaction.
Inhaling cigarette smoke isn't going to put you in the hospital or send you on
a cigarette-smoking binge, nor affect your health any worse than walking
around downtown LA would.

------
hypersoar
" My university, like most, has offices for diversity, indigenous student
support, sexual orientation, even a mental health office specifically for
international students, etc. As a professor, I am frequently asked to make
academic accommodations for every religion and every possible religious
holiday that might conflict with assignment. I must ensure that every every
disability is accommodated. Most disabilities that I am asked to accommodate
seem to be unspecified and are remedied by providing the students with a
separate, quiet location and an extra 30 minutes to take an exam.

“In my day” (I’m old now, my day was the late 80s early 90s), you visited the
registrar’s office. A financial aid office. The bursars office. I felt like an
adult, making decisions and finding things out for myself… But now there are
counsellors for everything."

I can only imagine how frustrating it is when minority, non-straight,
disabled, non-dudes explain the challenges the face that maybe straight white
dudes haven't experienced, only to have those straight white dudes write
articles like this completely dismissing all of that after basically not
listening. Yeah, I'm sure things were just swell for you back "in your day".
But has it occurred to you that it was less swell for other people in ways
that should be addressed? It certainly doesn't seem to have for this author.

Also, in the above quote, it seems like he resisted a pretty strong urge to
put scare quotes around "disabilities". Because there's no way to tell when
these people have not immediately-visible disabilities, except for when
they're _literally fucking telling you_.

There might be kernels of legitimate concerns in this post. But, like in the
many basically-identical blog posts and comments written by many, it's all
rolled into an incoherent mash of "College kids today, they can't take a joke,
with their trigger warnings and talk about microaggressions, their
`disabilities' and whatnot. They need to toughen up, because back in my day we
didn't need puppies."

------
vasilipupkin
I think part of the problem is culture has changed. A joke that is racist or
homophobic that would have been considered hilarious 30 - 40 years ago may
simply not considered all that funny anymore. It may still be that PC culture
is going too far, but I think it's not the whole story

------
comrh
He repeats the phase that college is not trauma but ignores that during the
college phase of young adult lives many mental health issues arise in an
environment without the only support system a child usually knows, their
family.

Suicide is the leading cause of death[1] for college students and this guy is
going to criticize the addition of resources to help handle stress? It just
reads like ignorance.

1: [http://news.virginia.edu/content/more-us-college-students-
di...](http://news.virginia.edu/content/more-us-college-students-die-suicide-
alcohol-related-causes-uva-researchers-find)

~~~
talmand
Funny, I didn't read anything in the article about him complaining over
suicide prevention counseling. I believe you are taking what he's saying and
pushing too far to prove some point that no one brought up.

~~~
lprubin
Some of the measures the OP is railing against can help stop students from
needing suicide prevention counseling, counseling which is not 100%
successful. If we can help reduce the number of students who even contemplate
suicide, I'd say that's a noble goal.

And I personally think the point is very relevant. OP says students are
coddled and campus stress isn't a big deal. GP brings up statistics showing
that campus stress IS a big deal because it can lead to suicide. Seem very
relevant to me.

~~~
talmand
"Some of the measures?", which proves my point. Instead of hearing the message
some people choose to just complain. Yes, college can be stressful. Life can
be stressful. Previous generations of college students did not require
counseling for nearly every single aspect of college life, which is what the
author is actually railing against and not "some" of the measures. I fail to
see the author calling for measures that will increase suicide in college
students. You are debating a point no one made.

~~~
belenos46
>Previous generations of college students did not require counseling for
nearly every single aspect of college life

Well, actually they probably did. That's why we have all these statistics
telling us how many kids in college kill themselves. Because they needed those
things.

~~~
talmand
See, I like how far off track this discussion has gotten from the author's
complaint. Let's needle one little aspect of the guy's message, that he didn't
even bring up, so we can decide he's wrong overall. Right?

There are many reasons for one to go the route of suicide, and in many cases
no degree of counseling would help. But, for counseling to help it needs to
address the root causes of the problem for that person, which may be unique to
that person. Almost all of the programs the author is complaining about will
not address that in any way. Especially the programs that don't even involve
much stress to begin with.

As for suicide rates, I'm curious as to how far off the statistics you are
referring to are from the national average. Personally, right now, I'm more
concerned over the suicide rates of soldiers.

~~~
comrh
I'm talking about mental health, with one of the most tragic outcomes being
suicide.

> in many cases no degree of counseling would help

In many cases? Really?

> for counseling to help it needs to address the root causes of the problem
> for that person,

That just isn't true. There are cognitive, behavioral and a combination of
both that help people all the time. Therapy that focuses on changing behavior
patterns (ie CBT) and not on your root causes are often most effective. Many
therapists also use therapy dogs because they're so effective, something this
guy railed against like it was turning students into children.

> I'm more concerned over the suicide rates of soldiers.

How is that related?

~~~
talmand
In many cases, yes. Otherwise it implies that no one in counseling ever
commits suicide. It happens. Ignoring that helps nothing. Notice that I said
many, not all nor most, but you put extra focus on it as if I did.

It is true, but I'll admit it's not true for everyone. People's reasons for
suicide can be quite complex and often times no one but the person knows or
understands the reasoning. To change behaviors without addressing the root
causes of the behavior provides the possibility of the behavior returning.
It's much the same with alcoholism and drug addiction.

How is this discussion related to the original article that didn't bring this
subject matter up? It's related because suicide rates came up in the
discussion and I stated that I'm personally more worried over soldiers
returning from war who receive next to no help versus students who agonize
getting counseling over what classes they should take next semester. If a
student is depressed and considering suicide because they feel they are
failing themselves, their parents, or whatever to the point of considering
suicide, then I want help available for them. But then, no one here has said
anything about being against that, right?

------
Rhapso
It is not something we really consider, but it is worth pointing out:
Education IS Trauma. Pedagogy focuses on minimizing the trauma, but learning
new things that violate preconceptions is both physically and mentally
stressful.

When you challenge somebody's core beliefs, their bodies respond as if you are
trying to kill them. Challenging less strongly held beliefs is less stressful.

I'm going into teaching a security class, and this is strongly in my mind.
Most people have a lot of strongly held false beliefs about how secure they
are, and what the information they do leak could be used for.

------
cgearhart
The biggest error I see in the entire line of argument is that it assumes the
author's experience to be generalizable. They might as well have said, "The
system worked well for me. I didn't need any of these changes that are
happening, so we should stop them. They're weakening our children because
_reasons_." I can't take any of this seriously without any data to show there
is a _problem_ and not just complaints that amount to "I don't like how PC
students are today."

> _As if the very act of registering for a class is traumatic event for which
> the student needs counselling._

Clearly the author didn't go to a high-demand program at an impacted state
school. "If you don't register for 12 units, your financial aid package will
be revoked and you'll have to reapply for admission next term." Field
Sciences, here I come! (True story.)

------
norea-armozel
On the matter of microaggressions I think the author doesn't use good examples
for them.

For example, telling someone they speak good English in a situation where
you're both native speakers is a microaggression. Asking where they're from or
where they grew up isn't a microaggression.

Another good example of a microaggression would be to ask someone if their
hair is natural (as I've seen commonly asked of African American women). Or if
you're transgender (like myself) the common microaggression is to ask for
one's "real" name (as if the legally designated name isn't sufficient).

It's not much to ask to figure out what is and isn't a microaggression,
really. I hate the word since it doesn't best describe the behavior but the
nature of it is very real.

------
mariojv
Having to change academic material that isn't overtly
racist/homophobic/xenophobic/transphobic/etc because students feel
uncomfortable about it seems silly, but I don't think there's anything wrong
with a student bringing up (respectfully) why something makes them
uncomfortable within the class, especially in a diverse environment with
students from all over the world.

I don't think that's necessarily what the author is talking about. However,
this part in particular was troubling:

"Then there are offices to help students with anything that could possibly
upset them (I suppose to ensure that they remain enrolled snd thus paying fees
and tuition). My university, like most, has offices for diversity, indigenous
student support, sexual orientation, even a mental health office specifically
for international students, etc. As a professor, I am frequently asked to make
academic accommodations for every religion and every possible religious
holiday that might conflict with assignment. I must ensure that every every
disability is accommodated."

What's wrong with providing institutional support to students with different
backgrounds and disabilities? Complaining about student support groups,
accommodating disabilities or recognizing non-Christian religious holidays is
a a bit over the top. It's anecdotal, but I had an indigenous friend living in
the unofficial LGBT-targeted co-op that committed suicide during his last year
of college. If having another support system in place that targeted his needs
would have saved him, I don't care how "infantilizing" it would have been. If
it can be managed, it's better to have too much support than tragedies like
that.

I don't understand why the author feels the need to conflate political
correctness with resources that, at least theoretically, make universities
less stressful, less homogeneous, and more accessible. If it's something that
interferes with academics, that's a completely different concern.

Plus, who wouldn't want a puppy room? I wish my workplace had one of those. :)

------
mbeattie
sounds familiar

[http://www.theonion.com/article/parents-dedicate-new-
college...](http://www.theonion.com/article/parents-dedicate-new-college-safe-
space-honor-daug-50851)

~~~
Maken
“God forbid any of you, in your years at this institution, are ever confronted
with an opinion you do not share. But if you are, you will have a refuge on
this campus.”

Being able to maintain a discussion and arguing in favor of your own point of
view is no longer a remotely important skill?

~~~
tangent128
Be advised that's an Onion article.

------
rl3
> _I know how it feels to have a death in family when there is an important
> assignment._

Is he implying students should not be excused on the basis of such an event,
merely so they can complete their assignment?

It's worth noting that in BUD/S, if there's a death in a trainee's family,
they're usually excused and rolled back to a new class upon return, giving
them the opportunity to complete their current phase of training.

If universities think they should be harsher in this regard than some of the
toughest military training on the planet, then that's simply deplorable.

~~~
fapjacks
This is the case virtually military-wide, including infantry units in active
combat. I received Red Cross notices twice while on orders (once in an army
school, once in Iraq), and leadership scrambles to accommodate soldiers during
these events. Army (and other military) leadership doesn't mess around with
Red Cross messages or a soldier's mail.

------
wazoox
Is it really this way? My, this civilisation really is coming to an end :)

------
at-fates-hands
In the immortal words of Jason Ellis, "You need to harden the fuck up."

Why is it that we're removing so much responsibility from kids these days? Or
is this the end result of helicopter parents?

~~~
fredfoobar42
Speaking up when someone hurts you, deliberately or otherwise, _is_ taking
responsibility.

~~~
Maken
These measures doesn't encourage people to speak up, but to avoid hearing
anything they don't like. That's not taking responsibility, it's avoiding even
the decision of taking or not responsibility.

~~~
fredfoobar42
Telling someone to shut up because they're being abusive is still speaking up
and taking responsibility. You have all the right to say what you want. Nobody
has the right to listen to you, and they have as much right to tell you to
shut your hole.

------
jazzyk
I don't particularly like the sweatpants and the puppy rooms, etc. but I can
live with it - they will grow out of it over time.

What I am much more worried about are two things:

1\. More students are joining the constantly-offended-by-everything, humorless
killjoy crowd.

2\. They appear to be mostly uninterested in politics. But they should be
interested in political change, given the bleak future that they face (with
mountains of debt, etc). Quite a contrast to the politically-active 60s or
70s.

------
daenney
Could someone be kind enough to edit away the shouty capitals?

~~~
plg
done---sorry!!! was a lazy cut-and-paste

~~~
daenney
Much appreciated!

------
dcole2929
I graduated a year ago and this whole entire article just pissed me off. At
the very beginning I was with the author. As a student you don't get to decide
what you learn. Either take the class or don't but you can't expect a teacher
to not use certain terminology for fear of offending someone.

Where this went off the rails is well pretty much everything after that. The
author admits to it but you really can't compare college today with college in
the 80's and 90's. They are two completely different beasts. Students walk
around in pajamas all day during finals week because they are fucking tired.
Finals are hard, comprehensive, and exhausting. That's always been true, but
the difference is now you have finals on top of the 8 million extracurriculars
you have to be involved in to actually get a job after graduation. Oh and that
job that you have to work in order to you know actually pay for that 40K/year
piece of paper. No one is working at the bookstore anymore and paying tuition
with that.

Are you really complaining about making religious exceptions? If college is
supposed to prepare you for the real world, guess what there I'm probably not
working on a day of religious observance if I can help it. How ironic is it
that a teacher of psychology is complaining about welcome events, recommended
by psychologist as helping students adjust to a new environment? School is not
a warzone but it can be traumatic for the unprepared. The amount of pressure
you have being placed on kids today is utterly incomparable to what you may
have dealt with in the past. It's great that you have been teaching for 12
years. Personally I spent 4 of my 5 years in uni working in student life as an
RA in the dorms watching group of freshman after group of freshman get
absolutely clobbered by their first and often second (where you get the
sleeping in the library group) set of finals. HS doesn't prepare kids for
college anymore That's not their fault, that's the system. Yet college can be
such a high pressure environment that one bad finals week can literally derail
the rest of your college career. It is not unusual for a kid to be sat down
and "asked" to change majors or leave altogether after bombing a final. Not
even the class but just the final.

And as far as the counselors? Having ~75% more people in college than in the
80's tends to make the old system a bit unwieldy. Maybe you enjoyed going from
department to department to get basic information but it was a stupid system
then that unfortunately still exists now at most places. All counselors do is
give you a single person to talk to when you're inevitable sent back to some
place you've already been. Counselors suck but actually making sure you on
track to get your degree on time is not the simple process it used to be. Is
there really something wrong with someone 17-22 having a resource on hand to
make sure they aren't making what could very well end up being a 40K mistake
if they have to stay an extra year because they took Bio A instead of Bio I
(yes that has happened). Most adults have accountants for that same reason.

There are so many things wrong with the system and the authors choice, because
it's the in-vogue thing to do, is blame the spoiled kids. The Ivy Leagues are
not representative of all college, or even most colleges. And if this is the
authors attitude he's part of the reasons kids need the many services
available to them. I wish more students would take advantage of the services
he mentions so I could stop seeing news of kids killing themselves over
college so often.

End Rant

~~~
jpm34
As the original author of this post, I see your point. I don't mean to be
blaming students...more so the admin in a sometimes desperate attempt to
recruit and retain more and more (paying) customers. I worry that the whole
system is unstable...I think things are more stressful compared to when I was
an undergrad. I sometimes think we (faculty, admin, both) are making things
worse in an attempt to make it better.

~~~
dcole2929
I understand where you're coming from, and even agree with some of your view.
The system in unstable, and I don't know that every policy school
administrations put in place help. But I don't think you used very good
examples. School is way to PC, but a lot of that is for good reason, even it
get's applied unreasonably sometimes.

Honestly though, it just touched a nerve with me. Millenials, as I'm sure
every generation before us, has become the it thing to bash. And I feel as
though most of the people doing the critiquing skim over the fact that the
world we grew up in is fundamentally different than that of our parents, and
their parents. The basic assumptions that older people make don't apply for
us. We are the first generation pretty much since this country was founded
who's job prospects are worst than our parents. Most of our parents will
benefit at least something from Social Security. We will never see a dime. We
are the largest, most educated generation ever but also the most in debt and
most under-employed (people who want a job but can't get one).

Part of all this is just life. But what makes it worse is that people keep
characterizing us as lazy, and entitled for wanting the things we've been told
all our life we'll get, if we work hard. Due to no fault of our own, the
American Dream or whatever that means if pretty much not an option for most of
us, and yet people are surprised we started making a decisions without that
goal in mind. If I have to work til the day I die, and most likely I will,
shouldn't I try to work somewhere that is as fun as I can find. If that means
swings, puppies, and playpits is that a bad thing?

------
btbuildem
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/)

~~~
talmand
I think this older classic is far more relevant:
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110759/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110759/)

------
joesmo
"The article in The Atlantic that inspired my blog post/rant suggests that
this may ultimately be damaging for education and mental health care."

No shit. It's the universities' responsibility to teach children and prepare
them for the "real world." They're failing because they're afraid of liability
when they're charging 40-60k a year per head? That's insane. How about they
take responsibility for their actions and start teaching our children. How
about the universities (the adults) stand up in this case and the the students
(the children) to shut up and sit down and listen. Do these kids feel
offended? Oh, boo hoo. They'll get over it.

Otherwise, to put it bluntly, we're going to end up with a whole lot of
useless pussies ruining our economy and way of life because they're too scared
of some words to do anything even remotely useful.

~~~
fleitz
To be fair universities generally teach adults, not children.

~~~
joesmo
Exactly. Now they're bowing down to the demands of children (who are likely to
be over 18, but still children) and that's the problem.

------
k__
Money Quote:

"professional comedians face increasing difficulty in playing colleges and
universities because they cannot do offensive jokes"

The more I learned about sexism, racism etc. I the less I liked the currently
famous comedians.

------
Torgo
Much of this is the natural outcome of near-complete deference to expressions
of offense, and declarations of identity. It was a totally predictable
outcome, it was warned about way ahead of time, it happened.

------
smcg
perhaps if students had more viable career paths besides college there would
be less pressure to succeed in college. as-is, dropping out of college is
practically a career death sentence.

------
analognoise
College didn't used to be terrifying - the middle class existed and the cost
was much lower.

I'd need a puppy break too with what the kids have on the line today.

------
guelo
It's so hard being an asshole these days.

------
cLeEOGPw
This thread probably has one of the longest and least valuable comments in
this site

------
typon
This guy seems awfully offended by sweatpants. Practice what you preach.

------
faithfone
Micro-aggressions? Sounds like twitter for insults.

~~~
collegiatecomp
Not really. Insults would fall under the category of aggression. A micro-
aggression would be anything that isn't inherently insulting. Like the
author's example of an American student who asks someone where they are from
with the intention of implying that the person being asked is not a "true
American." The author's intention was to show that sometimes people will turn
something intended to be innocent into an act of aggression.

