
What is it like to live and work in Bali as an engineer? - roadbeats
http://azer.bike/journal/what-is-it-like-to-live-in-ubud-bali
======
Alex3917
I spent a few days there a couple years ago. Ubud is a cool place, with
incredibly good and cheap food and housing. But the reason that costs of
living are cheaper may not be entirely disconnected from the fact that life
feels cheaper in general. Not only is there currently a rabies epidemic among
the wild dogs that are everywhere, but there are a million other random ways
to get killed, everything from falling into giant unmarked holes in the middle
of the sidewalk to getting hit by motorbikes.

~~~
csomar
This is something that I can't get first world people to understand. It costs
_more_ to live in a third-world country. And I mean that literally. It is
cheaper to vacation in third-world but try running a business there.

Here is an example:

\- Imported products have high tariffs. Electronics and Cars are usually more
expensive than the US.

\- No Good Transportation Hubs/Companies like DHL to move things around.
Broken and corrupt customs.

\- No trained professionals to repair electronics.

So What gives? I had to pay around $200 to fix a Wifi issue on a Macbook; and
the worst part? Wait for 3 months until the replacement was shipped.

Let's not then get to the other issues: Health, Public Transports, _Schools_ ,
Taxes, etc...

~~~
deerpig
It costs more to live the same lifestyle you had from your home country. If
you cook and eat local food, don't indulge in expensive imports, use fans
instead of aircons 24/7, drive a moto and not a car etc. Too many expats move
out here and live in expat ghettos where it is expensive. Move to an area that
is at least 10km from the nearest Western Style coffee shop and you'll find
it's a lot cheaper. Sadly, two weeks ago a chain coffee shop opened across the
street from the university where our office is, so there goes the
neighborhood....

As for electronics? Stay away from ecosystems like Apple, they are expensive
everywhere. Twenty years ago, our Thai office used Macs because we needed to
run Japanese software that only ran on Macs. We needed to go to Penang (in
Malaysia) to buy new Macs or get them fixed. But the prices there were about
the same as in Hong Kong. Was it as easy going down to Golden Shopping Center
in HK? No, but life was a lot more pleasant and overall a lot cheaper. We
moved shop to Phnom Penh five years ago and haven't had any serious problems
running a cloud service here except for the power outages.

~~~
csomar
That's Apple and Oranges. We are comparing same lifestyles in different
countries. Otherwise the comparison will not hold.

Collecting Government stipend from a wealthy country, living in a rural area,
and using nothing but free government services will make life _less_ expensive
even for the minimalist lifestyle.

But that's not the point here. The point is, is it cheaper? The answer is
obviously: No!. If it was, people will move to "arbitrage" out there
money/lifestyle. That's what happened with Thailand. That's what is happening
with Cambodia.

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jtchang
Not to discourage the article but just because people smile in SE asia a lot
doesn't necessarily mean they are happy all the time. A lot of it is cultural
as well.

~~~
geomark
They may not even be nice people. I've seen young hooligans smiling at
packpackers while they were discussing what good stuff they might have in
their backpacks. The backpackers didn't understand the language so they just
smiled back.

~~~
hbarka
Yeah right

------
peterburkimsher
Probably better to wait until the ash from the volcano clears.
[http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42147422](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-
asia-42147422)

On a more long-term note, though, visa policies are much more friendly in the
East than the West.

"Indonesia doesn't require visa for Turkish citizens so my family can visit me
anytime they want without going through visa application processes. This is
one of the reasons I left US; my family and friends always wanted to visit me
when I lived in Oakland but they wouldn't go through the expensive and
humiliating visa application process."

I currently live and work for a local company in Kaohsiung, Taiwan, which runs
a factory making microSD memory cards.

The salary is low, but the living costs (food & rent) are very low, so I end
up saving over 50% of my salary each month. It's comfortable. People who work
over the Internet get paid even more, but they have to risk working illegally
on tourist visas instead of having an Alien Resident Card.

I'd try to stay longer if the government would do something about the
education system, dual citizenship, military service requirement, and air
pollution. Those reasons make me think it's better to go elsewhere to start a
family. This is a nice place to be young though.

~~~
philliphaydon
> I'd try to stay longer if the government would do something about the
> education system, dual citizenship, military service requirement, and air
> pollution. Those reasons make me think it's better to go elsewhere to start
> a family. This is a nice place to be young though.

Are these issues in Taiwan? I haven't been to Kaohsiung (except when flying
back to Singapore) but my wife is Taiwanese so I've traveled to Taiwan a lot.
Taiwan care a LOT about education and the people are pretty highly educated
AFAIK, They also allow dual citizenship (which a lot of countries in Asia
don't), granted it's impossible to get citizenship in Taiwan. And air
pollution is no better/worse than say, Sydney - Australia.

~~~
peterburkimsher
High school is stressful and focuses on repetition, not creative thinking.
After-school buxiban cram schools are common. But then university is a joke.
People are generally quite smart, but I think that has more to do with their
interaction with the outside world (no internet censorship and lots of people
joining Working Holiday or study abroad programmes) instead of school.

Taiwan requires people to give up their previous citizenship to become
Taiwanese. But people who were born Taiwanese can take on other nationalities.

AQI in Kaohsiung is over 150 today. Sydney is 20. It's better than China or
India, but I still have to wear an N95 mask when I go outside, or I'll cough
and my sinuses will dry up.

------
sho
The article doesn't mention anything about the author's visa? For indonesia
you can get a VOA for 30 days free or 60 days for $50 but you can't stay
longer than that without an APEC card or a KITAS (work permit - hard to get).

Visa policies are certainly more relaxed in SEA than the western world but you
can't just hang out all year, working nonetheless, and expect no issues.

~~~
roadbeats
You can get three months social visa via agents and extend it bunch of times.
This is what I did before Kitas. I just added this info to the visa section.

~~~
sho
Hm, the social visa doesn't allow you to work. Of course you still can but
you're running a risk. Last year there were a bunch of people deported at
short notice after immigration raids, including westerners. And you need a
local to invite you.

Still, good to explain how it's an option. I also love Bali, so long as it's
as far away from Kuta as possible...

------
King-Aaron
Just a side-note, there is a lot of active volcanic activity throughout
Indonesia. Currently pretty much all flights in and out of Bali are cancelled
due to Mt Agung being on the brink of eruption. It's not one of those things
you'd need to worry about every day of course, but it could inconvenience you
if you had to travel and got caught out by it.

------
davidzweig
I am taking a week off work in Dahab, Egypt. It must be off-season, because
most of the hotels and restaurants are empty, but it seems to have similar
advantages. It's very inexpensive, a sizable semi-permanent population of
foreigners, on the sea with good snorkeling and interesting places to walk
nearby. There are very cheap flights from Europe to Eilat, Israel, although
the Israelis charge you $25 USD as you leave over the land border.

Actually I was thinking of setting up a kind of very inexpensive live-in
hackerspace, in the Ukraine perhaps, with workshops for metalwork, electronics
etc. and a live-in fabricator. You could live there, study, work on projects,
help others.

~~~
jpatokal
It's been permanent off-season in the Sinai for quite some time thanks to
Islamic State and friends, who killed several hundred people worshipping at
the "wrong" mosque earlier this week...

------
ademup
I spent an extremely memorable month in Ubud 5 years ago writing the software
that runs my SO's successful consulting business. She still uses the software,
and I'm considering another stint there for my next project.

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scurvy
Must be about ten years since I was last in Bali, but I distinctly remember
paying both an entrance and exit visa when visiting.

Only Bali downside, the beachy parts can get overrun with Australians acting
the way Americans do in Tijuana.

~~~
froogler
There are no exit visas anymore and depending on where you are from, you may
also need no visas for short visits.

~~~
scurvy
Great to hear!

------
tvalentius
for those who are interested, we also have an active dev community here in
Bali. There is Facebook Developer Circles, BaliJS, Python Bali, etc

[https://www.facebook.com/groups/devcbali](https://www.facebook.com/groups/devcbali)
[http://balijs.com/](http://balijs.com/)

------
drinchev
My question to ask is : What about English in Bali?

Can you deal with banks / landlords / supermarkets / doctors, etc in English?

~~~
tim333
An awful lot people speak English - you'd probably get by quite easily.

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theonething
> I can't do anything about bats pooping in my bathroom

That may be a dealbreaker for me.

~~~
roadbeats
You can keep the lights open during the night then :)

------
cyberferret
Ubud is beautiful, and I will probably take a couple of weeks to work there
again next year, but I don't know if I could ever put down roots in a place
like Bali.

Full story: I am of Sri Lankan heritage, born and raised in Malaysia and now
live in Australia with my own family.

So, I know what it is like to live in an Asian country after also living in
the West (er, South). My summarised take:-

UPSIDES:

Bali and other developing Asian countries ARE very cheap to live in for the
long term. The food is a big plus to me, but I grew up with most of these
foods and fruits, and they are a familiar part of my life. Some westerners may
have trouble adapting.

For instance, I LOVE durian, but it make most of my Aussie friend retch even
when I _mention_ them. Of all the things I miss most about Asia, it is the
street food.

I also miss the mixes cultures. I really enjoyed going to various friends
houses throughout the year to celebrate Chinese New Year, end of Ramadan
feasting, Deepavali, Christmas etc. There was a general cohesiveness of
different cultures that doesn't seem as strong to me in Australia.

DOWNSIDES:

Most third world countries are rife with corruption. Get arrested in Bali and
you better be ready to pony up some hard cash to the officials or else face
worse consequences. Health services are also really bad, in terms of emergency
services. I routinely get dental work done in Bali, but if I broke a limb or
got appendicitis or an infection, I would far rather be back in an Australian
hospital.

Language can also be a factor, I guess. I speak Malaysian and English, so
getting around in Bali is not really an issue for me (Indonesian is 99%
similar to Malaysian). However, I would struggle a bit in places like Vietnam
or Laos.

Bali, and especially Ubud, are being ironically killed by their popularity. A
LOT of local Australians I know go there to co-work for weeks at a time, and
unfortunately, with tourism also comes nasty things like higher crime and
fraud. Bali is becoming less and less safe as some of the less savoury locals
learn how to manipulate and extort visitors. The old days of being humbugged
by stall holders at the beach seems quaint. The newer operations on
unsuspecting tourists are far more sinister.

Conclusion - I don't mean to put anyone off. Bali is a beautiful place, and
Ubud is definitely worth a visit at least once, to work at with your laptop,
or for a company retreat. But I wouldn't pencil it in as a 'bucket list'
destination. There are plenty of other Asian countries that can offer the
same, or if not better opportunities. For those used to the convenience and
modernity of the US, perhaps Singapore or Penang (Malaysia) might be a better
place to experience the difference in cultures?

~~~
davidzweig
Perhaps also consider Jogjakarta, and I heard good things about Bandung. I'm
sure there are other good spots, if someone knows Indonesia better.

------
roadbeats
Thanks everyone for upvoting.

I wanted to share this article in HN because I know many people here are
looking for alternative ideas about where to live meanwhile building something
independently. Not just Ubud specifically, I recommend people like me to
explore developing world and consider alternative places for starting their
own venture.

Cheers

