
A shift in China to less toxic coatings for containers increases shipping costs - petethomas
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-06-26/an-environmental-push-is-rocking-the-global-shipping-industry
======
Animats
What happened to the glut of Hanjin containers after the bankruptcy? Those
things were piling up in ports around the world.[1] Back in February,
creditors were trying to dispose of them.

[1] [https://www.wsj.com/articles/hanjin-creditors-fighting-
over-...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/hanjin-creditors-fighting-over-who-can-
sell-shipping-containers-1487887301)

------
contingencies
According to a factory I discussed painting options with in Dongguan (near
Shenzhen) recently, local environmental pollution regulations have made
traditional approaches to anodized steel powder coating (my inquiry)
effectively illegal. The processes are still 'available' through amorphous
parties (no discussion of distance or environmental regulation legality).
However, that's coming from a factory so take it with a grain of salt. My
takeaway, if any, would be this is part of a broader shift toward stronger
environmental protection efforts led by forward-thinking regional governments,
not Beijing.

~~~
jobu
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Beijing sets the broad
emissions/pollution targets and then leaves it up to the regional governments
to decide how to make it happen. If the regional leadership does well they get
rewarded, and if they fail they get replaced.

------
csours
Side note: at places like automotive plants where solvent based paints are
applied in the US, you are required to "burn" the air to reduce the VOC
(Volatile Organic Compounds).

If your VOC burner is off, you can't paint cars - the EPA levies a SERIOUS
fine, like thousands of dollars a minute.

Even with the VOC burner on, paint shops always smell funny.

~~~
tesseract
I thought the auto industry had mostly already switched to waterborne paints
in the past decade or so. (Maybe the changeover is still not complete?)

~~~
dazc
Waterborne paints can still contain high levels of VOCs

~~~
csours
High compared to water, but not compared to solvent based paint.

~~~
DannyBee
Err, 100% false.

If you helped with the changeover, you should know this.

VOC is not the same as HAPS.

(Nor is VOC in any way related to how harmful the compounds are to people)

Trivial example: Acetone is VOC exempt in the US.

It's pretty trivial to make a 0 VOC solvent based coating using acetone.

They tend not to because it's not horribly friendly to use, due to, among
other things, how quickly acetone flashes off.

In truth, water based or solvent based doesn't really change the VOC level
_that_ much these days, nor would it really matter to _people_.

A lot of the auto paints are 2k urethanes. a 2k water based polyurethane is
still gonna be isocyanate + something else.

It doesn't really matter whether it's 0 VOC or not. You are going to use a
supplied air respirator (minimum) because breathing isocyanate is a really bad
idea.

So the idea, often floated, that lowering the VOC helped people's occupational
exposure, is usually unsupported by evidence, at least in the auto industry
(i'm only familiar with wood and auto :P).

The auto industry did not used to spray water based 2k urethanes. Now they do.
Spraying and breathing a post-cat lacquer with n-butyl acetate in it + some
acid, is infinitely better for you than spraying + breathing a water based 2k
urethane with isocyanate in it.

Are there cases it ended up better for people? Sure, of course. But most of
that is completely and totally independent of VOC content.

Because of course, most coatings manufacturers, surprise, optimized for legal
VOC content, often at a cost to harmfulness to humans.

Note that, of my professional wood coatings, my water based and solvent based
still have exactly the same amount of VOC (2.75lbs). Are there some that
don't? Sure. They are mostly crap, because nobody has come up with magic ways
to dissolve or emulsify various polymers and catalysts :)

So i can't get a water based post-cat conversion varnish that is anywhere near
as good as a solvent based one. The chemistry to do it simply doesn't exist.

I can get a water based 2k urethane that has as nice (or nicer) properties
than that conversion varnish, but at a high possible cost to my health. I'll
pass.

~~~
csours
I was involved on the IT side, not the materials side. I was probably thinking
of hydrocarbons, not VOC.

Also as far as I know, the clear coat is still solvent based, but I may be
mistaken about that.

Thanks for the detailed comment.

------
xbmcuser
It feels weird when ever I read stuff where China is doing things to improve
or protect the environment where as US is doing the opposite. Like we are
living in a mirror world.

~~~
avar
How is the US not improving as well? Renewable energy usage went up from ~9%
to ~13% from 2002 to 2013[1]. The growth in photovoltaics continues[2]. The
portion of electric cars as part of the fleet is going up[3] etc.

It is true that the US could be doing better, but it's not doing the opposite
of what China is doing when it comes to energy & environmental improvements.

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_United...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_United_States)

2\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics)

3\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country)

~~~
mattmanser
Trump just pulled out of the Paris climate accord. It was in the news for
days?

~~~
soundwave106
Trump may make the national optics look bad, but that doesn't change the
optics completely at the state and city level.

For instance, on the renewable energy angle, according to the American Wind
Energy Organization, five states now regularly generate 20%+ of their energy
from wind.
([http://www.awea.org/MediaCenter/pressrelease.aspx?ItemNumber...](http://www.awea.org/MediaCenter/pressrelease.aspx?ItemNumber=9999))
That number would've been unthinkable 10 years ago.

(Note that the windy states tend to be Republican voting rural mid-west ones.
That doesn't mean that Trump isn't going to stop mocking wind energy (as he
just recently did). Rather, it does mean there is bipartisan support in these
states for wind energy, and that Trump's negative comments on wind in Iowa
didn't go down very well with Iowans and Iowa politicians from both sides of
the aisle --
[https://apnews.com/a2b500b82d5a44eeb9759ca31d0b4a33](https://apnews.com/a2b500b82d5a44eeb9759ca31d0b4a33))

Having a national leader that seems hostile to anything environmental
certainly doesn't help matters, but it's not all doom and gloom.

------
Nition
There's nothing in this article about why the containers need to be painted.
Could the shipping companies just paint their logo on rather than painting the
whole container and save a bunch of money?

~~~
metafunctor
A coating of some sort is probably necessary to limit rust and keep the
containers is good shape longer.

~~~
tesseract
My understanding is that shipping containers are usually made of COR-TEN
steel, which forms a protective layer when it does rust (similar to the
protective oxide layers that form on aluminum and stainless steel). But
considering the containers are exposed to sea salt spray pretty much
continuously, it makes sense that the additional protection of a coat of paint
is necessary.

~~~
CalChris
No, that's not going to work.

 _CLIMATES NOT TO USE COR-TEN®:

COR-TEN® steel requires alternating wet and dry cycles to form a properly
adhered protective layer. Areas that have salt laden air, high rainfall,
humidity, or persistent fog are typically not the proper environment for COR-
TEN®._

[http://www.corten.com/frequently-asked-
questions.html](http://www.corten.com/frequently-asked-questions.html)

~~~
Animats
Aware of that one. The trail bridge at Pilarcitos Creek on the California
Coastal Trail in Half Moon Bay was made of unpainted Cor-Ten steel. That will
not last in the coastal zone, where it never dries out. The bridge collapsed
when park staff drove a tractor across it.[1] No injuries, but the heavily
used trail was out for most of two years.

The new bridge is made of marine-grade aluminum.

[1] [http://www.hmbreview.com/news/groundbreaking-for-coastal-
tra...](http://www.hmbreview.com/news/groundbreaking-for-coastal-trail-
bridge/article_5211eb44-6791-11e5-98ef-bb4dfb1108b4.html)

------
devy
All these labor intensive jobs that involve exposure to toxic chemicals should
ALL BE replaced by industry robots, no?

------
georgeglue1
Is there vertical integration in the shipping + container industry?

I imagine Hyundai, Maersk, etc. could buy or start some container
manufacturers, but it sounded like in the article that they were just going to
unhappily deal with it.

~~~
bkor
Maersk used to produce their own refrigerated containers. I think this has
stopped as Chinese manufactures are just way cheaper than doing this yourself.
Maybe the highly specific 'super freezer' containers (stuff to transport fish
at - 60 Celsius see [http://www.maerskline.com/~/media/maersk-line/reefer-
cargo/f...](http://www.maerskline.com/~/media/maersk-line/reefer-
cargo/frozen/superfreezer.pdf)) are still created themselves, but doubt it.

Regarding this article: either you lease more containers to handle a peak
season, or you choose to just have a bigger container fleet. I question if it
really makes sense to lease containers only during a peak season. If you
already bought those containers last year then increased prices this year
doesn't affect things as much as this article pretends: you still have your
entire container fleet. Containers yet reused and written off over many years
(e.g. 8+.. though just guessing), it is not a one-off activity!

------
hmahncke
FTFY, Bloomberg: "A shift in China toward less toxic coatings for containers
has shifted costs from health care costs for employees to shipping costs for
customers"

~~~
dang
Ok, we inserted 'shipping' above.

~~~
hmahncke
Thanks! My comment was more directed at the Bloomberg article and authors,
which institutionally see situations like this as a "cost increase" because
they don't consider the existing environmental/ health consequences to workers
as a "cost" (but of course it is).

But I appreciate you taking my comment seriously.

------
brianwawok
Except it had no day to day change for 4 years. And he wont be here in 4
years.

~~~
tartuffe78
"I continue to believe Mr. Trump will not be president" \- Barack Obama

