

Ask HN:  Should CS university grads be unemployable due to lack of initiative? - amichail

Given the amount of self-teaching that can be done nowadays, doesn't it make more sense for software companies to prefer self-taught applicants over university grads?
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pbhjpbhj
>doesn't it make more sense for software companies to prefer self-taught
applicants over university grads?

I don't like the question. It's too open, what role are the "software
companies" selecting a candidate for? What skills did the self taught
applicant teach themselves? Which university course and how successful, what
industry experience if any comes with it?

Generally I'd say a good degree shows rigorous study, flexibility a certain
amount of persistence.

University graduates are often self-taught in many aspects - a degree however
comes with a transcript given a brief overview of what the applicant should
know and the level of their ability. To get this from a completely self-taught
applicant without formal qualifications you'd need to test them thoroughly;
why do this when you can choose from pre-tested stock.

As a complete outsider, the relationship between computer science and most
software to me looks like that between physics and mechanical engineering.

 _I'm nowhere near being an IT employer, or computer scientist I just like
sticking my oar in_.

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Locke1689
What a dumb question -- what makes the two mutually exclusive? I've been
programming since I was 9. Here's the paper from the research I worked on my
freshman year, which wouldn't have been possible if I hadn't gone to college.

<http://v3vee.org/papers/ipdps10.pdf>

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bendmorris
While I agree with you, "what a dumb question" doesn't really contribute to
the discussion.

In my opinion, getting your degree and teaching yourself or launching a
product show two different types of initiative. If you've done both, you
should get double points.

~~~
Locke1689
My comment about it being a dumb question certainly contributes to the
discussion: it says that I think the question is intellectually bankrupt
_prima facie_ and that I don't think questions like it should be submitted in
the future. I have a standard for intellectual discussion on Hacker News and
this question doesn't meet it.

There may be a legitimate question hidden behind the _non sequitur_ but if so
one should ask that question, not require people to do some linguistic
gymnastics to find the real question.

~~~
ia
I agree with you, but the pretentious tone of your comment distracts from your
point.

~~~
Locke1689
Sorry, I'm just attempting to beat Reddit away from HN with as big a stick as
possible.

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sammcd
Went to College. Was very frustrated with how little I learned in the areas I
was interested.

However I learned a lot in many areas that I wasn't (at the time) interested
in.

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CallMeV
I went to uni, and got a decent Computer Studies BSc degree. It never stood me
one damned bit of good, because before, during and after my studies, companies
are still holding to the mantra "We need two years' experience in [name the
technology]." I have seen employers asking blithely for "two years'
experience" in technologies invented six months ago, so "experience" is not
the issue.

I have come to the conclusion that, like desperate people in their forties
still holding out for their One True Love and still staying single, employers
are looking for someone who will come on like Neo from The Matrix, yet look,
speak, think and get paid like Wally from the Dilbert strip.

I think the degree puts the "hard working, white collar, self-made man, bucked
my own goat, got myself to where I am from nothing, Essex barrow boy, yadda
yadda" interviewers off their stride. Some misplaced sense of snobbery,
perhaps. I have seen them snap at me, yet treat a candidate with only a minor
diploma with kid gloves.

And as for what I've done with myself since I got my degree ... applied for,
literally, more than a thousand jobs, attended countless business breakfasts,
attended VIP private viewings of art exhibits, appeared in front of and behind
a TV camera, done a stint on a radio show as a presenter, given classes,
studied languages, mathematics, poetry and art, seen my writings published in
a number of different places, and taught my nephew stick fighting for his
drama class.

Plus, I had the time somewhere to fit in some coding.

Unemployable? Lacking in initiative? Hardly.

~~~
fluorescentLAMP
Then go to a uni with a required co-op or intern program

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davidsiems
If you're interested in running a successful company you'll prefer whoever is
most competent (technically, socially, etc.), regardless of where they're
coming from.

If someone you think is a 'know nothing' gets hired instead of someone you
view as technically skilled, you've learned something about that company.
Maybe you don't actually want to work there.

College isn't a magical pill, what you get out of it is proportionate to what
you put into it. If you're motivated enough to teach yourself to program,
you're probably motivated enough to learn a lot in college as well.

Being self taught and being college educated are not mutually exclusive.

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dwc
As someone who doesn't have a single credit hour of college and currently
works at a university as lead developer on a NASA space mission, I will say
without hesitation that I would recommend getting a degree. I would hire
anyone who was right for the job, but a good education gives some breadth that
is very hard to acquire through self study.

Some universities offer a different degree program where you learn some EE &
chip design along with software. When these programs are done well they are
great.

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warmwaffles
I'm currently attending college and it is frustrating to watch grad students
who know nothing get hired over some one who is technically skilled. It's
baffling to say the least.

I learned a ton in school and have applied concepts and took ideas and
expanded upon them. Now I'm not just hacking away at a piece of ice, now I
understand everything I'm doing and why one way is faster than another

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rock001
No, self-taught is fine for trivial tasks but for good solutions it take a
well balnced education. Example: I've yet to interview a self taught
programmer/analyst that had a grasp of space/time complexity.

~~~
chad_oliver
(first year electrical engineering student here) Could you explain what you
mean by space/time complexity? Is this just Big-O notation and the associated
ideas regarding complexity, or is it more than this?

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kunjaan
No.

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Rantenki
Initiative is orthogonal to academia?

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edge17
why would software companies cut themselves off from the supply? that's just
bad business.

