
Kanoa won’t ship its $300 earphones to customers who pre-ordered them - prostoalex
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/08/26/crowdfunding-disaster-silicon-valley-startup-takes-customers-money-shuts-down/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook
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khazhou
> "...with the quick turn of events, we are emotionally overwhelmed"

I didn't preorder and have no skin in this.

But, it really irritates me when companies share their feels after screwing
people over. I dont care that you're super sad! We're not compadres, and I'm
not going to sympathize on a personal level when your professional failure
cost me.

Same with touchy-feely status updates when hosted services go down and paying
customers are losing money. Github used to do that back in the day. Extended
outages and their status log was smiley and cutesy as if we're buddies through
all this. We are not.

~~~
meddlepal
Agree on the point of cutesy bullshit marketing/PR fluff when your team or
service fails to deliver. I'm really tired of the infantilization of
communication. I think this is a West Coast thing. It seems to have originated
there but it doesn't translate outside of SF.

~~~
dguaraglia
And yet, here we are, talking about a service that has become known around the
world... maybe it does work outside of San Francisco, it's just some people it
doesn't agree with?

~~~
khazhou
I doubt their downtime communications were a factor in their huge success.

~~~
dguaraglia
It clearly wasn't their demise either. My point being that people - including
myself - form very strong opinions about what "works" and "doesn't work",
while failing to acknowledge the bigger picture.

Companies with this kind of global presence have a better way to measure
marketing impact than reading through random Hacker News comments. For what's
worth, I think the concept for Snapchat is stupid and I can't see a single use
for it, and yet... they managed to get to an IPO.

~~~
khazhou
You're right. I'll refrain from commenting on how large tech companies conduct
their business from now on.

~~~
dguaraglia
Please don't. Just be aware that making comments such as "that doesn't work
outside of the Bay Area" like the original poster did are kind of silly.

------
dingo_bat
The troubling thing is people ordered the headphones on the website too, not
just on kickstarter. I'm sure taking an order on your website and not sending
anything is some kind of fraud. It's not like kickstarter where you are
funding the company and the company promises to make it up to you.

~~~
bbarn
That's really the thing to read into here. Too many people will blow this off
and say "yep dumb kickstarters" but bottom line, they took people's money for
purchases and didn't deliver on them. These purchasers should all be covered
via chargebacks on their credit cards though.

~~~
jacalata
Credit card charge backs are generally only possible within six months of the
purchase date.

~~~
nunez
Also, those that ordered with debit cards are more or less out of luck
depending on their bank. Some will do an investigation for you and credit you
the purchase amount while they do it; others aren't so lucky.

------
maddyboo
The review video that "killed the company" was great. The entire time, I was
bracing for the moment when the founder would offer a kickback for a good
review, expecting a number above at least $2500.

$500.

He offered this guy 500 bucks for a false review of a product that they both
knew was absolute shit. What a joke!

~~~
drdeadringer
URL for the video:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36Gw3tErUSM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36Gw3tErUSM)

------
mcroydon
I'm still a little confused why the story posted the other day fell off the
front page so quickly, there was some good discussion and a link to a youtube
meta-review that gave a pretty interesting view in to the last few days of the
company:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15095861](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15095861)

------
throwaway2016a
To provide a counter anecdote:

I have never been burnt by a KickStarter yet and I've backed about 7 of them.
I have had to wait a very long time though. Once almost 2 years.

But I am prepared knowing that one day I might back a losing horse.

With that said, I'm surprised there is no recourse for the people who bought
from the website.

~~~
gervase
I really can't imagine that these types of scams are the norm, and not the
exception. I've backed 33 campaigns, and I've _never_ been burned (yet). Two
turned out to be pretty shitty executions, though - not sure if I should count
that, since I did still receive my rewards.

The key is to ask yourself some common sense questions like: * Is this product
possible in our current reality? * Does the business exist only for the
purposes of this campaign? * Can the product realistically be made with the
money raised so far?

The first is obviously a deal breaker, and the second can be a red flag. The
third might be hard to gauge, but is probably the best filter. For example,
raising $6MM to make 6 million milled titanium wallets obviously isn't going
to work, even though it's a lot of money. OTOH, $6MM for pretty much any kind
of software product is going to scale fine as long as it's not an ongoing
service.

Note that that third point also means you basically can't back any electronics
hardware project unless the answer to the question "Will this company make
this product anyway, regardless of this Kickstarter?" is an unequivocal 'yes',
since hardware development is _so_ damn hard.

Just my 2 cents.

~~~
bsder
> since hardware development is so damn hard.

I think I would put it as hardware development is _different_. And it's the
differences that burn folks used to software.

However, even as an experienced "hardware" designer, the _BANE_ of my
existence is anything having the word "mechanical" associated with it.

I'm so good, I can design electronics that _anticipates_ the failure modes
(For example: Want good soldermark coverage? Never use the default green
ink.). I can get 100 fully populated boards in about 7 days for about $5K. If
I go to China, I can get about 1000 in 3 weeks for the same price.

Cases? Clips to hold a component? Packaging? If SLA isn't good enough (and
it's rare that it is), God help you, you are about to need it.

Dealing with mechanical engineering feels like stepping back into 1953. And
not even that good. Back in 1953, lots of people knew how to operate milling
machines, lathes, etc. so you could get a small number of parts made for a
small amount of money fairly quickly from somebody out of their garage.

Nowadays? Anything that touches mechanicals is chunks of $5K NRE and 6-8
weeks.

I'm an electrical engineer by background but have had to learn TIG welding,
CNC machining, injection mold design, and a whole host of other plastic and
metal manufacturing techniques simply because I can't afford to be shelling
out $10K up front every time I want to prototype something.

I'm really hoping that SLS will evolve now that the patents have all expired.
I would pay real money for a machine that lets me torch mechanical engineers
and machine shops/injection molders.

(Side note: I have had the pleasure of working with a few very good machine
shops and injection molders. They are wonderful, but they tend to be quite
expensive. It is almost a tautology: a good shop is at 100% production
capacity and a shop not at 100% capacity is, by definition, not a good shop.
The fact that such shops are at 100% capacity means that they don't want to
waste production time on a client who wants a maximum of 1000 units.)

~~~
gonzo
I'm an ME, and still had to learn TIG / MIG welding (long before studying ME),
machining (both CNC and not), injection mold design (smallworks.com), CAD
(wasn't taught back in the day).

Oh, and software engineering, 'cause that's what I ended up doing.

------
Clubber
You have to know, anything crowdfunded is very high risk. I'm not sure why
people even do it if the reward is maybe a product at a discount.

I'm amazed some unscrupulous company has't abused it to take money with no
intention of ever delivering a product.

~~~
BugsJustFindMe
_I 'm amazed some unscrupulous company has't abused it to take money with no
intention of ever delivering a product._

I assume that this is sarcasm.

~~~
busterarm
I backed a kickstarter for $20 that I'm pretty positive did exactly that.
Communication I had with the project seemed to indicate that they used the
money to pay for a move. In retrospect, looking at this Kickstarter, it has
got all the warning signs of a project that won't deliver, but then again,
it's $20. Luckily it's the only project out of several dozen where I've gotten
burned. Still, it's a wonder that Kickstarter lets this crap go on on their
platform.

[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/743096088/bonerwood-
the...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/743096088/bonerwood-the-game)

~~~
throwaway2016a
A lot of app developers do that on mobile... "Man, this app sucks and doesn't
do what it should. Oh well, it's only $0.99"

That's why I am a proponent of easy refunds and/or trial periods on apps.
Like: if I uninstall this from my phone within 7 days I don't get charged.

As a seasoned KickStarter backer I do a lot of due diligence. and haven't lost
money yet But the average project I have backed is $300 so I'd be very pissed
if I did.... not like losing $20.

~~~
busterarm
Aye, I'm mostly in the same boat as you as far as kickstarter and literally
backed this one on a lark. Live and learn.

------
stephengillie
ICOs to the left, "KickStartups" on the right. I'm stuck in the middle with
you.

------
Geekette
With more cases like this popping up, it seems the safer route is: Back
product on Kickstarter and set reminders for 2 weeks before chargeback
deadline for credit card used. If product is undelivered by that date, then
cancel order with maker AND initiate chargeback too, to be on safe side.

~~~
Viper007Bond
Won't Kickstarter be not happy about the chargeback? I know many sites will
kill your account if you do it.

~~~
Geekette
They might be unhappy but a higher frequency of chargebacks (and possibly
bank/card issuer responses) may be the kick they need to re-evaluate and
overhaul their current system of maker accountability.

~~~
origami777
Chargebacks seem like one of the worst ways to deal with it. If you're that
afraid of losing money this type of transaction probably isn't for you.

What seems to be the biggest failure with most of these companies is setting
the expectations right. It also seems like a subset have good intentions, but
lack the experience and/or ability to execute. And an even a smaller subset
are actual fraud.

Edit: I would think that if it's proven fraud then some other form of legal
action should be taken. It'd be interesting to see if that should be on
Kickstarter or not. Perhaps they should step in on such cases to protect their
customers.

------
mgv11
Sorry for the people who lost their money. I've backed quite a few KS projects
as well, but have stopped doing that mostly now. Just because there seems to
be bit more of these sketchy projects and from all the projects I've backed I
can say that I am "only" properly satisfied with half of them.

Of all the Kickstarters I've done been only been "scammed" once. That was some
mobile game that never got the Android version they promised. Or actually they
did release it as a free pay-to-win game years later, but had already counted
it as a loss. Have had couple of very disappointing hardware projects, but at
least I got the product. Oh and there are still couple of games in
"production" that should have been released years ago.

------
on_and_off
The video mentions how the headphone can't transmit through the body.

The Kanao does seem to have a very weak connection, but isn't transmitting
through the body an issue with most headphones ? With my metallic case phone
and jaybird plugs, I often have a better sound if I switch front pockets in
order to have the phone on the same side as the plug's bluetooth receiver.

Transmitting electromagnetic waves through a body is just hard and to be
honest makes me a bit uneasy.

I have never tried with the back pocket though

------
Brajeshwar
Ah! Like how HydraDock[1] did.

I ordered 2 Hydradocks. Never got the product nor the refund; emails
blackholed.

1\.
[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kickshark/hydradock-11-...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kickshark/hydradock-11-port-
usb-c-dock-for-apple-macbook)

------
eveningcoffee
[https://youtu.be/36Gw3tErUSM?t=662](https://youtu.be/36Gw3tErUSM?t=662)

Yes, he really got an unpolished product. This is obvious.

What is a bit surprising for me is that he is being asked to turn the thing
off and on again and it just does not click with him.

------
Overtonwindow
This is about Kanoa but the headline will bring to mine many others.

------
honestoHeminway
They had feedback in there earphones. How can you have feedback in your
earphones? All thos DTFs, all thos dedicated signal processors, they are all
just useless junk?

------
DiabloD3
Can some of the garbage be trimmed off the end of the URL?

------
earlyadopter2
light.co was mentioned on the corresponding reddit thread. I'm getting afraid
I'm going to be burnt by laforge's shima glasses. They are 'super open' with
updates showing disassembled hardware components but despite promising press
reviews and shipments in Q1, I haven't seen a single hands-on demo or press
review or evidence that even their proof of concept exists.

