
Ask YC: I just quit Microsoft to work on this product full-time. What's your brutal feedback? - arooni
http://www.emptyspaceads.com
======
mixmax
Interesting idea - I like the fact that you don't mess with a sites design in
order to serve ads. That said I think that your success will largely depend on
the clickthrough rate - which is what customers pay for at the end of the day.
And in this respect you might have a disadvantage, since visitors don't see
your ads before they hover over an empty area.

Also you should watch out for your brand - there have been many examples of
obnoxious ad models that tend to turn people off. A good way to nurture the
brand is to serve relevant ads, and in this regard of course you have a
formidable competitor in Google.

The reason Google is doing so well is exactly because they are non-obtrusive
and relevent.

I would work hard with the non-obtrusivenss, and think about how you can serve
up relevant ads. The last one is of course extremely difficult for a startup
because you need a lot of data, a lot of customers and somebody with a good
knack of algorithms.

But all the best of luck :-)

Just thoughts off the top of my head....

~~~
arooni
These are great points mixmax, thanks for your feedback. A couple notes:

* We've been seeing click through of 5-20X times higher comparing existing ad units on <http://www.phonemyphone.com> with the same ad unit delivered in an emptyspacead. So far so good :P.

* About the relevancy of ads we serve: First off, we're not an ad network. We do work with ad networks to serve their ad units in website's empty space. Secondly the publisher is free to create their own text and image ads as well as ShoppingAds which can be keyword targeted to the site's content.

* The core of the product is the patent pending ad format we've developed. I think finding a bunch of advertisers and serving relevant ads is a hard problem I'd rather let others solve. Hats off to the folks at AdPinion (<http://www.adpinion.com>) for being the YC company to step up and do this.

~~~
mixmax
> "We've been seeing click through of 5-20X times higher..." hey that's great
> :-) I think that monitoring, A/B split tests and continually pondering on
> the data to find out how you get better click throughs is paramount to your
> business, after all that's where the money is. And without money there is no
> business...

> "About the relevancy of ads we serve" - I missed that one ;-) But I think
> that it is definitely the right decision to focus on what you do well, and
> do only that. Especially if you are only one founder and thus have limited
> resources.

A word about patents. I have done two startups, both based on patents I have.
One of the things I would have done differently is to not focus so much on the
technology that we happened to have a patent on, but go where the market
leads. It is easy to become thrilled by a patent, but in my experience the
only ones that care about it are investors. It's a great thing to have, but
don't base your business on it. Just saying this because I noticed you
mentioned it a few times in the comments.

~~~
arooni
Great feedback mixmax. A patent is only one ingredient of the intoxicating
elixir that is a startup.

~~~
mixmax
Just hope it helps :-)

I do business models and such stuff for a living and think that I would be an
ass not to spend two minutes helping out if I can...

------
Zak
First, I think it's important to note that empty space in a design _does_ have
a purpose, and putting ads in it _can_ detract from the design. If the ad
clashes, it's extremely jarring from a design perspective. Several of the
design articles posted here recently make note of the importance of
whitespace.

Second, I tested showing ads on news.ycombinator.com, and it partially covered
the login link with an ad. I'm using Firefox 2 on Linux.

~~~
arooni
Zak you're totally right. This product isn't for every one. I was trying to
strike a balance where website designers could maintain the beautiful
aesthetic they worked so hard to create but also allow website owners to
monetize the 20-40% of real estate that most didn't know they had. However if
the user keeps their mouse over content the ads shouldn't appear (but we're
not perfect :P).

Lastly, we have two detection modes: "Automatic" and "Let Me Decide". The
current preview features is set up to use the former. However, you can choose
the latter and explicitly lay out the divs you want the ads to appear in by
simply adding the "ESAemptyspace" class attribute. Once you do this, we'll
make sure the ads only ever appear within those divs. We think we do a decent
job of finding your site's empty space, but we know you the website owner can
do the _best job_.

~~~
gregwebs
It seems you are assuming a white background- the background should match the
color the add is placed at. For my preview, the add was placed partially in
actual empty space and partially on empty space that had a background image.

~~~
arooni
We have two detection modes
(<http://www.emptyspaceads.com/publisher/customization_options>) that you can
use. The preview feature is using the Automatic detection which isn't always
perfect. However, you can use the "Let Me Decide" detection which will only
cause the ads to appear in divs or HTML elements that you add the class
attribute "ESAemptyspace" to. That way you can explicitly tell us where you'd
like the ads to appear on your site.

------
thingsilearned
I really like the idea. Seems to make adding adds very simple. The demo is
really cool.

Your largest benefit is that you make it easier to put up adds. Your UI should
reflect that. There are too many words on your site. I didn't read any of them
and I won't until there are ridiculously few to read.

Also, put that awesome demo as the front page. The front page needs to draw
them in. Just say "Put in your blog to see what it'd look like with emptyspace
adds" and then a submit box.

~~~
arooni
Wow really good feedback thingsilearned. What did you like about the demo? The
customization of the ad format that you could do? The flash portion?

~~~
thingsilearned
I guess I didn't find those parts of the demo. I just went to the "Learn More"
page and put my url in. It showed my old blog.

[http://www.emptyspaceads.com/websites/preview_url?website%5B...](http://www.emptyspaceads.com/websites/preview_url?website%5Burl%5D=thingsilearned.com&commit=Preview)

I thought that was really awesome, where do I sign up? It would be great if
somewhere in those adds you had a "Sign up" or "embed the adds". It would then
bring me to a page, where I give you my email, you give me the js to embed,
and the whole transaction is done. (Other than a month later when you email me
telling me you need my account info because you have $20 for me).

~~~
arooni
Ah gotcha! So you went to the publisher learn more page as opposed to our demo
page. That's a good call on the call to action to sign-up being embedded in
the ads themselves. Our signup URL is: <http://www.emptyspaceads.com/user/new>

Sidenote: It's so interesting to tail the log files and find out where users
go. My friend Kalid (<http://www.instacalc.com>) recommended to me the free
service StatCounter (<http://www.statcounter.com>) which is like Google
Analytics... but updated _live_. I'm using it to watch all of you :P.

~~~
mst
That looks rather cool, actually.

And their free acounts are ad-supported.

Go sell them your service :D

------
dawnerd
I love the site design. Although I think the idea of any ad that just pops up
like those do are very annoying. From your demo though they don't seem so. If
you can get some ads for various games, let me know and I will sign up. I am
launching a game review site soon and the only way I can put ads on the site
without ruining the design is in the margins.

~~~
arooni
Thanks very much for your feedback dawnerd!

We can definitely hook you up with ads for various games. Check out
<http://www.shoppingads.com> one of the first ad networks we support. They're
an eBay super affiliate and operate as an ad network. The bottom line is you
can copy and paste their ad code into one of our forms and serve ads for video
games for sale on eBay within your site's empty space. We offer a 50/50 split
with publishers for this type of ad (we call it a NetworkAd). Please find my
contact information in my YC profile, I'd be more than happy to assist you,
feature you on our blog, and our home page when you launch.

~~~
dawnerd
I made an account and will be getting in touch with you tomorrow if I'm in the
office. I think your product is worth a shot.

------
dkokelley
You seem to be getting a lot of technical and user oriented feedback, so I
won't bother you with even more of this. From a marketing standpoint however,
I feel I can provide some advice.

The benefit of your service is the unique compromise between site design and
monetization. The current solution (adsense et all) detracts from the design
of the site and is an unfortunate compromise that site admins must make in
order to be profitable. Your product gives me, and all prospective customers a
beautiful site without ugly ads carved out of the site's design. Quite simply,
we can have our cake and eat it too, or translated: we can have a beautiful
site and still run ads.

Most of the literature on your site refers to running ads in the "emtpy space"
on a prospective user's site. It took me about 5-10 minutes to figure out the
true value of the site, the "Hey! Now I know what this could do for me!" and I
come from a more technical background. Other bloggers and site owners may
barely have a working knowledge of their site, and to them, I would think that
the message they would perceive is "Fill up all the empty space in your
website!" which hides your true value.

"Have your cake and eat it too!" - I think stressing this point in your site's
literature will serve you much better than "Monetize your website's empty
space"

~~~
arooni
Thanks for your feedback dkokelley. I'll see if I can incorporate the message
of not having to sacrifice your site's beautiful design to run emptyspaceads.

------
arooni
I'm the only founder... so far ;P. I'd love your honestly brutal feedback
about the website, the product, the idea, or anything else you have to say. I
have come to respect this forum and and I'd really like to hear your thoughts.

Also for all you hackers on freenode that would like to have a discussion, but
can't be bothered with HTML forms, I've set up an IRC channel to discuss:
#emptyspaceads (my nick is arooni).

~~~
davidw
( Public service announcement: some of us hang out on freenode's #startups )

------
rms
Best startup I've seen on here in a while. The ads didn't show up for me in
Firefox 3 on Linux but they worked in Opera.

Also, do you have any publishers yet?

~~~
arooni
Thanks very much for your feedback rms. I need to check out FF3 issues as I've
heard that issue come up before.

We do have a few publishers already on board including:
<http://digitalpayag.blogsome.com/>, <http://fslayouts.us.to/>, and
<http://www.phonemyphone.com> (if you count me :P). In addition, we've had an
article written about us: [http://www.howtotuts.com/2008/02/01/how-to-place-
ads-in-the-...](http://www.howtotuts.com/2008/02/01/how-to-place-ads-in-the-
empty-space-of-your-site/)

We haven't really started marketing the product yet (that's tomorrow). I
wanted to post to Hacker News before and get all of your feedback before the
big marketing push (to work out any kinks in advance).

~~~
run4yourlives
You should really investigate the FF issues... I'm on 2.0.11 and had major
issues with the demo.

Other than that, good luck to you... I echo most of what already been said.

~~~
arooni
Thanks for your feedback run4yourlives. Can you please elaborate what specific
issues you're talking about? I'm testing it now
(<http://www.emptyspaceads.com/about/demo>) and don't see any issues.

I have been noticing that I'm getting a request for Processing
ApplicationController#index (for 153.XX.XX.XX at 2008-02-07 12:42:01) [GET]
from some users which is causing the flash demo file not to be found.... but
I'm not really sure how users can even get to that action since I don't have a
method that defines index.

~~~
run4yourlives
There's nothing wrong with the demo itself, but with the demoed ads -> They
should appear and disappear according to the movement of the mouse pointer on
"whitespace" right?

For me, that's what isn't working... the ad starts as visible, flickers on the
mouse of whitespace, and stays visible after I move the cursor back into the
demo. I see the default add as aligned top-left from the corner of the browser
window: is that correct? (it covers your logo/title bar)

------
davidw
How is this different from other ad systems? My first impression is something
along the lines of "I have adsense, what's different about this?".

It was a little bit slow loading this:

[http://www.emptyspaceads.com/websites/preview_url?website%5B...](http://www.emptyspaceads.com/websites/preview_url?website%5Burl%5D=www.dedasys.com&commit=Preview)

But 'try it with my web page' is definitely a compelling feature!

~~~
arooni
Great question davidw.

The basic idea is your site along with every other website has some amount of
empty space which you're likely not making any money from.

So basically our value proposition is: "don't give up any existing ad units
you're using, let us help you make revenue from the real estate you didn't
know you even had." Eventually we'd like to have close integration with
AdSense so we can serve your AdSense units in your site's empty space. Finally
today, you can create TextAds and ImageAds that drive users to pages you
monetize well or that you'd like to promote. For you perhaps its:
<http://www.dedasys.com/about.html>. For others its a RSS subscription link or
the "buy a t-shirt page".

------
nkohari
I like it. The idea has some good potential. Odd timing, I just read this on
Mashable. Looks like a potential competitor with a slightly different take:

<http://mashable.com/2008/02/07/adcamo/>

~~~
arooni
Thanks for the feedback nkohari. I'm happy to hear about AdCamo, it means that
the space I've gone into is valid (with the entrance of competitors).

------
tyohn
I like the site and concept. My 2cents: Some of the graphics need tweeked -
like the go button and the hot callout bubble are a little cheesy. I am
guessing the ad creator/publisher will be able to choose the border color - so
I won't go there. Will the advertisers be able to create Flash ads? I agree
with mixmax; I think the ads should be relevant to the content of the site. I
noticed that your the only founder; since you know what your doing from a
programming point of view, I'd look for a co-founder who has a design
background. Once again I like what you are doing.

~~~
arooni
Thanks for the feedback tyohn. Flash ads are an interesting format and I'll
definitely add it to Trac as a future release. We'd like to support all
manners of ads to allow you, the website owner to customize the ads to your
needs.

------
mburns
Your demo app with my blog had some disturbing results. The google ads that
normally appear were covered over by one of your ads _AS WELL AS_ a second ad
that would appear when my mouse was in the empty space.

I like the idea of empty space ads, you have a good service, but I won't
deploy it on my sites if you are going to be overwriting parts of my page.
Lets hope this was some ill-advised feature of the demo, and not actually
production system behavior...

Screenshot: <http://mirwin.net/images/emptyspacead.png>

~~~
arooni
I'm 99.99% sure it's the demo code. You see we pull down all the HTML + CSS
from your site and insert a bit of our javascript code to your site when we
show the ads. This could cause some irregularities of the ads appearing as you
mention.

In fact I just previewed your website
([http://www.emptyspaceads.com/websites/preview_url?website%5B...](http://www.emptyspaceads.com/websites/preview_url?website%5Burl%5D=mirwin.net&commit=Preview))
and while I do see the ads appearing sometimes over AdSense (because we're
using the snap to margins behavior) I don't see them replacing the AdSense ads
as you mention. What is your OS/Browser?

And finally, I absolutely need to put a disclaimer that lets you know as a
user you can specify the divs that you consider empty space (the "Let Me
Decide" option) by adding the class ID attribute "ESAemptyspace" to any HTML
elements you'd like the ads to appear in. On our part, we'll be sure to ensure
that the ads _only ever appear_ within those elements. The valid issues you're
bringing up could be mitigated with this option.

------
dfranke
I don't have Flash, so I can't use your demo, but I think I get the gist of it
anyway. I'm wary of the placement options other than "fixed". I have no
tolerance for ads that do anything to cause my eyes to jump away from text --
this generally includes moving around the page or changing color balance from
one animation frame to the next. Whenever I see one, I'll hit the back button
and never come back. Most people have more patience with this sort of thing
than I do, but I'd still urge caution.

~~~
arooni
Thanks for the feedback dfranke.

You actually don't need flash to run our demo, the ads are already appearing
on that page (provided you have javascript enabled). The flash demo is only to
help walk you through what triggers the ad appearing and disappearing. We
tried to make the ads as pleasing as possible and ridiculously easy to get rid
of (hit the X, shake your mouse, or hit the escape key on your keyboard). I'd
be interested in seeing what you think of them. Example:
<http://www.phonemyphone.com>.

~~~
dfranke
Yes, there are several things that set me off here:

1\. Whatever network you're serving the image ads from is already in my
blacklist, so I just get the loading indicator. The indicator animation is
irritating.

2\. Get rid of the fade-out animations. Just have it disappear.

3\. _Any_ event that fires on mouse movement is evil. Re-position the ad on
page-up/page-down instead.

~~~
arooni
Thanks for the feedback dfranke. Sounds like you've got AdBlocker extension
installed on Firefox. Our NetworkAds don't currently work with AdBlocker but
our ImageAds and TextAds should.

These are great feature ideas I will add to Trac for new releases.

~~~
dfranke
Ping me once you've implemented these and I'll take another look. But anyway,
like I said, I'm as curmudgeonly as they come about this sort of thing. If you
succeed in not annoying me and still get clickthroughs from other people, then
you've definitely got a viable product.

------
shawndrost
Hey arooni - there are some places within the "close" icon that aren't active
(clicks are registered as ad clicks). Also, there's lots of flicker on your
demo page (win xp / ff 2.0.0.11). Actually, it looks like your demo page is
still under development, there are some other problems with it. Also, your
photo on the "team" page is really dark.

Good idea. I don't like the name; can you emphasize "clean" rather than
"empty" or something? cleanads.com was my first idea.

~~~
arooni
shawndrost: Thanks I've verified the bug regarding accidentally counting
clicks and will look into it. Can you elaborate on flickering? I've tested
with your same setup some days ago and had no issues. Or just ping me
privately through my Hacker News profile.

------
stener
It distracts me more from actual content than integrated ads- the pop-up
effect is horrible. Your ads care more about site owners than visitors.

------
iamelgringo
Overall, I really like your idea of using whitespace to serve ads. I'd much
rather offer those on my site than other types of ads. I think the over all
concept works. If you study animation and motion desing, you realize that a
viewer's eye is attracted by motion in an image. So, I think that it's a good
idea, to have the slow fade in/fade out on the ads. It's not jarring, and
abusive, I like that. Another strength is that the ad fades in beside the
user's mouse cursor. So the user's eyes are probably looking at that part of
the screen to begin with. Because of that, I suspect that you will continue to
have better than average conversion rates. Congrats.

Constructive criticism:

Logo: From a design perspecive, it seems a little cramped between the "pt" in
empty and the angle of the thought bubble. I'd like a little more space there,
and perhapse angle the balloon a little bit, so it is lower below the "pt" and
higher beside the "ds" in "spaceads". Just a thought. I think the logo is a
good start, but it could use a little more work.

Company Name: In the design world, the term "white space" is used to describe
what you're calling "empty space". If you're going after designers, that might
be a plus. I don't know if you've done any domain name searches involving
"white space", but at least to me, it would be a clearer explanation of what
your company is doing than "empty space".

Front page design: Over all, I like the color scheme. However, the white on
orange, "Sign up Now" and "Learn More," buttons are hard to read.

Front page copy: I had a couple of issues. The phrase, "Publishers turn your
site's empty space into cash money" is a little problematic for me. The term
"Publisher" communicates to me a magazine or book publisher, not a blogger or
content creator. Those are your target demographic, I'd make it obvious I'm
referring to them on my front page.

Also, the phrase, "cash money" is redundant and bugs me a bit. Copy like that
is used in payday loan services or used car sales. It cheapens the service in
my mind. I'd think that, "Bloggers. Change your site's blank space into cash."
or something along those lines would be stronger copy.

Demo page: I didn't really like the quality of the ads that were served in the
demo. It appears that you're using live ads from your ad network. I'd rather
see something well designed rather than what comes in randomly off the ad
network. I think that you'd get people's attention a bit easier. My first
impression when I look at your site, is this: "Wow, looks pretty good." My
first impression when I look at the demo ads is: "Huh??? What is that picture
of? Oh, it's an ad for a hand bag... I think." The images that I saw on
several re-loads were small and pixelated and frankly, I was turned off. I
know that you might not have a lot of control over that, because you're only
working with one ad affiliate. But for your demo, I'd make a different choice.

Demo page design: Just a simple thing, but my eye was attracted to the bright
green in the pie chart first. That's not the most important part of your demo.
It was a little distracting for me.

Again, I'm not trying to nit pick. I'm tryin to give what was asked for: an
honest critique. Over all, I think that you're well on your way. Good job, and
you're off to a great start. Keep it up.

~~~
pchivers
Yep, I agree with the suggestion to remove the term "cash money". Makes me
think of a bad hip hop video--remember the Cash Money Millionaires?
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_Money_Millionaires>)

~~~
yters
Is there another kind of money?

------
dejb
For me your demo had an ad appearing over the content on
<http://www.guitarsite.com> and the ad blinked on and of a few times. Nice
idea though especially for those looking to monetize a site without a lot of
hassle, as long as the your ads are easy to install.

~~~
arooni
Thanks for the feedback dejb. As called out in the thread, you can specify
your site's own empty space by adding the class attribute "ESAemptyspace" to
elements you'd like the ads to appear in. On our part, we'll make sure to only
place the ads within these elements. In our preview feature you used, we use
our "Automatic" detection, but if you were to sign up with us, you could try
out the "Let Me Decide" detection. Please let me know

------
utnick
this is the best startup i've ever seen in an AskYC. Congrats.

I will be looking you up in a few weeks when I launch.

~~~
arooni
utnick, I'm honored, thanks for taking the time to look at our product. I'd be
happy to help you out in any way that I can. Please see my contact information
in my Hacker News profile.

------
Fuca
There is a lot of money in that market, good luck

I think the bottom line is us (publishers), use Google ads because we want to
be in good terms with whoever is bringing the people, if you work around that
you will make it big.

------
bootload
_"... I just quit Microsoft to work on this product full-time. What's your
brutal feedback? ..."_

Show through demonstration. Well thought out, flawlessly executed in an area
that will no doubt have the potential to make bucket loads of cash.

But there are a few problems I can think of. The first is the market for
adverts is dominated by a giant. But where there is competition there is
potential for success. The other problem is images + javascript can be blocked
through code [0] and by humans. [1] Those clever lads at google get around
this using text. Text fools code blocking and to some extent humans. So the
technique you use will be less effective than googles technology. What other
technology is behind the advert engine. How for instance does it target
individuals?

    
    
       Q What do we really need? 
    

Maybe it's a little bit idealistic but for me I just want to make things that
users want [3] and try to make their day a little easier and helping them
instead of bombarding them. Reducing the amount of useless information and
noise. Linda Stone poses the question(s), _"what do we really need, and what
do we need to pay attention to"_. And your system is something I think does
not really benefit the consumers full stop. Microsoft thinking at it's best.

    
    
      Q What do we need to pay attention to?
    

I'm sure advertising will be a hit for creators, synthesisers. But is this the
right question?

[0] <http://noscript.net/> for example ~
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/2250089864/> and humans if
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/2250089862/> you see the distinctive
shape.

[1] _"Is Navigation Useful?"_ , '... users rarely look at logos, mission
statements, slogans, or any other elements they consider fluff (in particular,
they ignore advertising and anything that looks like an ad) ...' ~
<http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20000109.html>

[2] _"Creators, Synthesizers, and Consumers"_ , '100% are consumers, 10%
active synthesizers & 1% creators'~ <http://www.elatable.com/blog/?p=5>

[3] _"Linda Stone"_ , 'Continuous partial attention' ~
<http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail739.html>

------
mhartl
The demo failed on my personal site (<http://michaelhartl.com/>) by trying to
serve ads on the left of the page, thereby obscuring ~1/3 of the content.

~~~
arooni
Again, we have two detection options, "Automatic" which is what the demo is
using in addition to "Let Me Decide" where you can specify the HTML elements
that you'd like the ads to appear in by simply adding the "ESAemptyspace"
class attribute to the elements you'd like
(<http://www.emptyspaceads.com/publisher/customization_options>).

For the purpose of the demo, we use the Automatic detection method... but if
you signed up as a publisher with us, you could get the fine grain control
that you desire.

~~~
mhartl
Good to know. I suggest indicating that prominently somewhere, lest potential
customers reject your product on spurious grounds (as I appear to have done
:-).

------
raju
arooni: Great website, and a good idea IMO. I think most of what came to me
was covered in other comments, and this may sound offhand, but I went to see
your demo, then hit the back button and saw this "Code corrupted. Insert fresh
copy" at the top right hand corner. I am probably nitpicking, but it caught my
eye, so I figured I would drop in a comment.

Good luck. Great idea. I might consider it for my app too...

~~~
arooni
Thanks for the feedback raju. I've never seen that bug before and thanks very
much for calling it to my attention, I'll investigate. Please don't hesitate
to contact me via my Hacker News profile regarding using our product on your
site. I'd love to see how we can help you.

------
kashif
I find it interesting although your current implementation may not be 'sticky'
over time. Best of luck :)

~~~
kashif
One more thought...On your website the design is very clean but the ads appear
jarring, maybe you could do something so that they blend with client websites
better.

~~~
arooni
Great comment. The ads we show on your site are ones we pick but as the
website owner you get to control what's inside the ads that appear on your
site. For the purposes of a preview, I had to pick _some types and styles_ of
ads, and unfortunately, not everyone will like them :P.

------
hhm
Ads appear in my firefox when you enter the Flash applet too, not only on
blank space.

~~~
arooni
Thanks for the feedback hhm.

So perhaps the demo page is too confusing. The ads _are supposed to_ show up
in the demo page when you move your mouse to the empty space of the site
(<http://www.emptyspaceads.com/about/demo>). Could you please elaborate on
your comment?

~~~
hhm
If I move the mouse into the empty space in the page, it shows me ads. That's
ok. The problem is that it also shows me ads when I move the mouse into a
Flash applet (I guess the program fails to detect that as content).

~~~
arooni
Ah I see. Can you tell me what OS & browser you were using? I've tested with
many setups and the ads should go away when the mouse is over flash elements.

~~~
hhm
Opera + Flash 9 in Linux. I've tried in Firefox + Flash 7 in Linux too and
it's somewhat messy there too. In both setups the ads appear and disappear at
strange times when I move the mouse, not just when I enter the Flash area.

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eusman
i find interesting that your other site phonemyphone.com is not using your own
ads

~~~
arooni
But we _are_ :P. If you move your mouse to phonemyphone's emptyspace, you'll
see the ads appear. We've been running them for months and I just checked
again a few minutes ago (still see them).

Note, if you had Firefox's Ad Blocker installed, you will not see them :(.

~~~
eusman
oh sorry, i just realised that the window of offscreen, so i didnt see them

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simianstyle
may the force be with you

