
Lead is even deadlier than was feared - Mononokay
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/17/lead-petrol-more-deadly-than-we-thought-brexit-bring-it-back
======
goldenkey
I was actually pondering something related today. I worry about my cats' paws
getting glass in them. Because the pavement is full of tiny pieces of glass,
even worse if someone breaks a bottle outside, they won't actually vacuum and
clean it up, I guess wind can help a bit..but it's just shuffling the glass
around. Glass doesn't decay on a human time scale.

Which brought me to the grim fact that there are so many substances that do
not decay in a reasonable time..that you are pretty much stuck with them in
your body if they somehow get there. With glass, at least if you realize early
enough, you can yank it out. And some people say that 10 or 20 years after
getting glass stuck in them, that it came to the surface of their skin on a
random day.

Which brings me to thinking about if we'll ever be able to truly know what
substances are doing to our bodies in full fidelity. Like, some people believe
that food colorings are unhealthy - will there eventually be a time where we
have a machine, you stand in it and eat the fruit snacks and we get a full
picture of where every molecule of titanium dioxide is headed? ..Imagine, we
see a HUD of a human body, and a heatmap, overlaying that 99.95% goes to the
kidneys but we see that 0.05% gets stuck in the prefrontal cortex of the brain
in a peculiar area. We test more people and see that they also get the
deposits in the same area...something we thought was totally harmless turns
out to be depositing itself in some arcane area by some arcane mechanism...
Yes, I eat fruit snacks and I don't think this is the case...it's just a silly
hypothetical situation. And I am aware of fluorescent tagging technology which
can do something similar but sometimes poorly, because ultimately it is
modifying the original molecule. (Incompleteness sucks doesn't it?)

Maybe some day..

~~~
eutectic
At least broken glass doesn't stay sharp for long when exposed to the
elements.

~~~
dTal
Why wouldn't it? Archaelogists find obsidian blades thousands of years old
that still have an edge.

~~~
icegreentea2
Anything out on a (well traveled) sidewalk is going to be constantly moved
around by traffic (and weather) causing it to abrade against the sidewalk
itself (and whatever else is around) causing it to 'weather' away (round off).

Pretty much anything old we find like those knives are pretty much guaranteed
to have been essentially buried all at once, and then left more or less
undisturbed from that moment on. Minimal physical movement, minimal abrasion,
minimal dulling of edges.

------
phkahler
It's interesting that aircraft still use leaded fuel. From what I can tell
this is ultimately due to cost concerns.

~~~
verelo
Only in priston engines, and it’s mostly due to the fact that changing the
engines, which are currently reliable and in many cases have been for decades,
could introduce new issues. It’s a snails pace industry due to safety and
reliability concerns for the most part. It’s super annoying because i always
want the best new thing to go with a plane, but when you’re in the cockpit,
it’s comforting knowing the plane is 8000 hours in and nothing significant has
changed since it was initially made (other than what was mandated by the
maker) so it’s probay going to be fine for your 1.5 hour flight.

~~~
verelo
Also, most small airports only carry one fuel, i imagine those making new
planes don’t get customers excited about planes you cannot take everywhere due
to limited availability of fuels.

I love/hate flying for all these reasons.

~~~
cjrp
Some engines (such as Rotax) can be run on mogas, available at gas stations.
Obviously you then need to transport it to the airport yourself, which isn't
always convenient.

~~~
slavak
Rotax can run on either MoGas or 100LL, so if you're at an airport that
doesn't offer MoGas you can just fill up with AvGas and go.

------
iN7h33nD
Lead is still used all over the place in he USA. Its very concerning. You have
to specifically look for lead free versions. Examples:

* "fake" christmas decorations (trees, wreaths) often contain lead

* Garden hoses almost always contain lead

~~~
mmagin
A lot of these are vastly less dangerous than the use of tetraethyl lead in
gasoline or other forms in which significant quantity can be easily taken up
by the body (e.g. the old white lead carbonate paint pigment).

While it's reasonable to be extra careful with small children that might put
decorations in their mouth, small amounts of lead in vinyl products (or more
significant amounts in machined brass products) do not necessarily result in
significant dosage in people who handle or use those products.

~~~
rabboRubble
I drank from garden hoses all the time as a kid :-(

Gotta wonder what that did to the brain pan.

------
amelius
What is still a safe lead blood value?

And is there any merit in "chelation" therapies, as advocated on health
websites, like this one, [1]?

[1] [https://www.livestrong.com/article/199912-what-natural-
herbs...](https://www.livestrong.com/article/199912-what-natural-herbs-can-be-
taken-for-chelation/)

~~~
arkades
There is not, insofar as lead tends to be either inspired or ingested in
contaminated water. For most people, it's the former. The "oral chelators"
just bind lead that is mixed in with them, stopping you from absorbing as much
of it. That is, Senapati 2001 (the garlic-rat study) didn't give lead acetate
in the morning and garlic in the afternoon; they intentionally mixed the two
together.

That is, oral intake of lead with oral intake of garlic, means maybe you shit
out more lead with the garlic chelation agent. But lots of garlic will do
nothing for water you drink later in the day, or the air passing into your
lungs.

There may be some additional anti-oxidant activity. Anti-oxidants are good for
you across the board. Have at them.

As to a safe blood lead level: depending on your local public health
department, 5 mcg/dL will or should prompt public health action. <5mcg will
usually prompt a doctor to start trying to figure out where you're exposed,
and cut that exposure out. >5mcg turns into a little bit of a grey area
depending on where you are, and by 10mcg your kid is getting chelation
therapy. These numbers are built around children, not adults, because they're
far more susceptible to the adverse effects of lead exposure.

That said, we have not identified _any_ safe lead level - every level that has
been tested has been shown to be associated with some sort of negative
cognitive developmental impact (Lanphear 2000). I feel comfortable saying the
safe level is "0", but that's not medical consensus, that's just my opinion.

~~~
wonthegame
Just adding to your comment. Govt regulation for lead workers where I worked
was about 1.4 micro mols of lead.

~~~
2chen
Which is just an arbitrary number the government came up with because zero is
obviously unreasonable for lead workers..

------
Al-Khwarizmi
_" Looking back, it seems insane. Bluntly put, we took a known poison and –
for three quarters of a century – used it in machines that puffed it out in
breathable form. Then we drove them millions of miles a day, all over the
world, regularly dosing billions of people with the toxin."_

We are still doing just that, even though we are using milder poisons now.

~~~
jonex
What are the poisons of today that we allow?

I general, from what I've gathered, we have been replacing substances that
accumulates in nature with substances that breaks down over time. So for
instance, we still do allow ozone but also watch the levels to ensure they
aren't too high.

I know there are issues with a lot of medication as it goes out in the sewage
and there's still a big question mark on the safety of some modern materials
such as nano particles. However, the overall the feeling I get is that the
awareness of the dangers with allowing use of poisonous substances is a lot
higher today than before. I'm interested in hearing about the exceptions.

~~~
Knufen
Read up on BPA, drinking from plastic bottles and other endocrine disruptors
we still allow in our food supply. As a side note, a lot of people think more
quantity = more poisonous. This is not always the case as a small amount can
mimic a hormone wrecking our hormone levels over time.

~~~
alexandercrohde
BPA and other xenoestrogens scare me the most. Men's sperm counts have gone
down 50% in the last 30 years, nobody knows why, but the estrogens in our
products/water/air aren't out of the question.

It's scary how little it scares everyone else.

~~~
devocracy
With an ever expanding world population, possibly on the verge of
unsustainable, would a plummeting birth rate necessary be a bad thing? Sure it
would mean redesigning how we see the world (the retirement and economic
models), but we can either tackle it now or when it's forced upon us.

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
Well if the only effect was a plummeting birth rate, then maybe it wouldn't be
bad, but it's also been testosterone levels that have dropped considerably[1],
which according to that site "[decreased testosterone] is often associated
with diabetes, abdominal obesity, sexual dysfunction, depression and other
adverse conditions."

There have also been increases in those who identify as LGBT[2]. Such massive
increases in younger generations can't be explained away by cultural changes
IMO. I don't think it's a coincidence that at the same time that exposure to
hormonal disruptors has increased, changes in gender and drops in testosterone
have been found.

[1] [https://www.healio.com/endocrinology/hormone-
therapy/news/pr...](https://www.healio.com/endocrinology/hormone-
therapy/news/print/endocrine-
today/%7Bac23497d-f1ed-4278-bbd2-92bb1e552e3a%7D/generational-decline-in-
testosterone-levels-observed)

[2] [http://news.gallup.com/poll/201731/lgbt-identification-
rises...](http://news.gallup.com/poll/201731/lgbt-identification-rises.aspx)

~~~
rapind
Are you sure it couldn't be explained by cultural changes? Perhaps the numbers
were always there, but higher cultural tolerance has simply brought more out
of the closet? At the very least I would expect that to be a contributing
factor.

I remember reading about how the increase in mental illness could just be that
we are better at diagnosing and recognizing them (and lazy doctors who would
rather just prescribe something for your "depression").

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
No I'm not sure, nor is anyone. But having 1.4% of boomers and 7.3% of
millennials identifying as LGBT is a _massive_ difference. Homosexuality is
something that by all indications causes incredible mental anguish by
suppressing, and from what we understand doesn't really change over a
lifetime. Wouldn't we see a massively large number of older people coming out
of the closet? Would it really be surprising if endocrine disruptors could
have such a massive impact?

~~~
rapind
I'm not married to either reason, but I'm just feeling very skeptical about
your assumption.

A) I don't think we would see a massive number of older people coming out of
the closet, because this culture change is generational. Most of your peers
aren't going to change their minds just because a younger generation is more
tolerant. It's the same reason my 100 year old (really!) grandmother may still
use the occasional racial slur. I definitely think there's more peer friction
for an older LBGT individual than a younger one.

B) I don't think these numbers are actually out of line with the impact of
cultural change.

C) Base on your linked datas, religion may also be a factor. Given that
religion is on the decline in the US, especially among millennials, I wouldn't
rule that out as a factor either.

It's probably a combination of factors as usual, and maybe endocrine
disruptors is one of them.

------
hedora
Sadly, there is a good chance your daily coffee was contaminated by lead from
the espresso machine that made it (even current models do this!):

[http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/728315?Page=1](http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/728315?Page=1)

~~~
sitharus
Hm, looking at those numbers if you went by the worst possible readings, and
assuming 4 espresso coffees a day with the average length of 30ml you'd get

    
    
        0.042mg/ml * 0.030ml * 4 = 5.04µg of lead
    

According to
[https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=34&po=9](https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=34&po=9)
adults absorb 20% on a full stomach and up to 80% empty.

So always eat before your espresso! Though a commercial machine running a
regular takeaway workload is unlikely to have much lead in due to the volume
of water going through it.

------
eadmund
> Worryingly, the “precautionary principle” that led to the phase-out, and is
> enshrined in EU law, is in danger from Brexit.

The precautionary principle is not a vademecum — indeed, it can be taken far
too far and become an excuse for either unthinking conservatism (banning
anything new out of an overabundance of precaution).

~~~
qubex
For professional reasons I am aware of the ongoing controversy regarding
titanium dioxide (used in paints and so forth) where an apparently flawed rat
study has triggered off major pandemonium at the heart of REACH (EU’s
materials risk assessment and management system) and threatens to run my
industry aground, all because of the ”precautionary mechanism” and some
possibly bad science. I’m not terribly confident about how bureaucracies
process this kind of information.

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
>I’m not terribly confident about how bureaucracies process this kind of
information.

My reaction to _“let’s have politicians establish tax schemes to ‘solve’
global warming”_. Apparently to the gloom and doomers there is no nuance in
the topic at all, odd for the people who claim to be such ardent supporters of
science.

~~~
lmm
Cap and trade is both the mainstream theoretical economic consensus
recommendation, and worked well in practice in solving acid rain.

------
karlkloss
The next thing to ban will be microplastics. It seems to be as dangerous as
lead, and it'll be much more complicated to avoid.

------
lucidguppy
It would be interesting how elevated lead levels affected the history of the
20th/21st century. (Not just crime statistics - but effects on elites / world
leaders).

------
donutdan4114
Hope they don't find out the same things about fluoride.

------
oldandtired
Does anyone know of what foods mitigate the accumulation of lead or other
heavy metals in the body?

~~~
SQL2219
cilantro

------
nerdponx
Serious question: does this mean I need to start being a lot more careful
about lead debris generated by hobbyist soldering?

~~~
jakobegger
Yes?

I don't know why people still use leaded solder in the first place? I only use
lead free solder for my hobby projects, and it works fine.

~~~
xyzzy_plugh
Because it's easier. When I started soldering, the lead-free stuff was
finnicky but I had nearly no problems with leaded solder.

Regardless, you should have good ventilation when soldering. A small fan to
suck smoke away, maybe even a mask, and take care to clean your hands and the
area like you would any other harmful material (e.g. oil).

~~~
pault
Does anyone know of any ventilation kits that would work in an apartment that
doesn't otherwise get a lot of air circulation? I can't drill holes in the
walls for air ducts.

~~~
mmagin
[https://www.hakkousa.com/products/fume-extraction/hakko-
fa-4...](https://www.hakkousa.com/products/fume-extraction/hakko-fa-400-smoke-
absorber/hakko-fa400-smoke-absorber.html) up close plus a HEPA filter in the
room, and you're probably doing quite well. Use name-brand filter replacements
and not some random crap.

------
j_shi
Lead contamination in school water supplies is a particularly pernicious,
under-addressed, and improperly diagnosed problem, happening right here in
California - with significant downstream developmental health consequences for
children.

An SF-based group Measure Water is fighting for a solution to the problem,
starting with getting schools to correctly examine their water.

I'm friends with the founder and she'd welcome anyone interested in helping to
reach out at team@measurewater.org

------
EGreg
Are lead lined walls dangerous? I wanted to have a shed basement with lead
lines walls to double as a bunker.

How does one actually get lead poisoning except thru contamination of water
etc.?

~~~
nitrogen
Touching the lead and then touching your face, food, or others' hands,
breathing dust from the lead, etc.

Maybe you can achieve your goals with other materials, like soil, rock, cinder
block, etc.

~~~
EGreg
Why would I touch the lead if it's deep in the walls?

------
DenisM
TLDR: 400,000 annual US deaths are attributed to lead poisoning, 10x increases
over previous estimates. The difference is due to previous studies excluding
low doses of lead, assuming they have no effect. The news here is that any
rise of lead is dangerous.

The study is observational and looking for correlation, involves 12k people,
and controls for all usual factors including wealth.

It seems legit to me, given that controls are in place and the mechanism has
been well established earlier.

~~~
aoeusnth1
At a valuation of $10MM/life, deaths from lead cost the USA $4 TRILLION per
year.

Meanwhile, the gross national income is only around $18 trillion/year.

------
watertom
We still allow Flouride in toothpaste and we actively put it in drinking
water, and I believe it’s worse than lead.

~~~
nate_meurer
> worse than lead

You're a smart person, easily capable of understanding how false and damaging
this nonsense is.

For perspective, municipal water is fluoridated at 0.5-1.5 mg/L. Can you guess
what would happen to you if your drinking water contained that much soluble
lead? Here's a hint: it doesn't involve living very long.

Please stop spreading this bullshit.

------
vixen99
And eventually there will be general acceptance that shoving a lump of
metallic mixture containing 50% mercury, another toxic heavy metal, into a
location an inch or so from the brain is not such a good idea.

[http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs361/en/](http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs361/en/)

"Exposure to mercury – even small amounts – may cause serious health problems,
and is a threat to the development of the child in utero and early in life."

~~~
minitech
Are you talking about fillings? Confusing to link to a generic article about
mercury if so.

