
In El Chapo’s Trial, Extraordinary Steps to Keep Witnesses Alive - danso
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/01/nyregion/el-chapo-trial-witnesses.html
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bitcharmer
From the article [about how isolated he is now and how unable to threaten or
kill witnesses]:

“(...) unless the government is suggesting that the defense team will
disseminate hit orders from Mr. Guzmán, there is no realistic way for him to
do anything” to the witnesses at all."

Assuming that the leader of Sinaola cartel who had people murdered in
thousands has lawyers that would deny him the means to order hits on witnesses
is childishly naive.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Also, it's not like other people in the cartel are incapable of taking
initiative to support their boss...

~~~
londons_explore
Exactly.

One can assume that literally anyone who succeeds in getting him out of jail
will be given lavish rewards and protection.

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danso
FWIW, the submitted article links to two more in-depth articles from 2017
about the NYC prison in which Guzman currently resides, in the graf that
reads: "10 South, the maximum-security wing of the Metropolitan Correctional
Center, New York City's most impenetrable jail"

[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/nyregion/el-chapo-
complai...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/nyregion/el-chapo-complains-
about-conditions-at-manhattan-jail.html)

[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/23/nyregion/el-chapo-
guzman-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/23/nyregion/el-chapo-guzman-
manhattan-jail.html)

Google Maps/Earth view:
[https://goo.gl/maps/2Qp8Xt7D5Fw](https://goo.gl/maps/2Qp8Xt7D5Fw)

I worked downtown Manhattan for several years and had no idea a high-security
prison "tougher than Guantánamo Bay" was sandwiched right in there.

~~~
pweissbrod
I'm no prison security specialist but right in downtown Manhattan, of all
places, sounds like the least secure spot to host this powerful escape artist
of a drug lord of anywhere in the country.

~~~
murph-almighty
I was curious and decided to map possible escape routes.

He's pretty close to a 4/5/6, an R/W, a J/Z, and maybe a 1 train. That puts
him at about 25 minutes from NY Penn, which allows him access to Amtrak or the
LIRR.

He's about an hour by public transport from LGA, but that would require a bus.
The fastest route to JFK would be 1h11m if he took the A (which isn't all that
close) followed by an airtrain. If he chose Newark Airport it'd be something
like 25 minutes to NY Penn station + 25 minutes to Newark Penn station and
maybe another 10 minutes to Newark Airport via NJ Transit, so about an hour.
In other words, from escape to the front door of the airport he's looking at
at least an hour of commute, by which point I'd hope someone noticed he's
missing.

This all, of course, assumes he takes public transport.

~~~
londons_explore
I think he'd have a helicopter pick him up, and take him a couple of miles to
be transferred to a supersonic jet.

That jet would take him 100 miles into the atlantic and he and an accomplice
parachute out with a liferaft and little engine.

The plane carries on to mexico as a decoy.

Radars aren't good enough to see small craft far from the shore in the ocean,
so he can stay at sea as long as he likes and land anywhere. The search area
would be huge - if we can't find MH370, we can't find him!

~~~
jaclaz
>That jet would take him 100 miles into the atlantic and he and an accomplice
parachute out with a liferaft and little engine.

Why not a small submarine?

------
JohnTClark
I always wonder, when they catch this kind of criminals, why not shoot them on
sight like they did Pablo Escobar or Osama? Special forces officer: "it was
low light operation and we thought that he had a weapon so we shot him." and
thats that.

~~~
timavr
Due process and presumption of innocence.

As far as US judicial system is concerned Osama and Pablo are innocent.

It is always better to try people in court then kill them, because it limits
the chances that someone innocent can be killed.

~~~
swarnie_
> presumption of innocence.

I know this is the cornerstone of all law in western countries but its a
really difficult thing to argue for in this case.

~~~
timavr
It is the best system invented.

Like maybe someone learned mind control and made El Chapo do it. But when he
is not under mind control he is 100% law abiding citizen.

It will be a crazy defense, but it will be up to jury determine if that is the
case.

Or another scenario is that El Chappo had no choice because rogue officials in
the US demanded him smuggle drugs to the US or his family will be killed.

~~~
supergirl
except you can’t have a fair trial in the US anyway. so presumption of
innocence is just a mythical phrase (same as freedom of speech). money wins
trials in the US. in this case the defense has to outspend the US gov. plus
all high profile trials become media circuses that influence the outcome.

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gnode
Whilst the benefit to the safety of the jury and prosecution's witnesses is
obvious, this also seems incompatible with the defence's discovery rights.
Although I'm not sure how the two could be reconciled, such that a fair trial
could be held.

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kolderman
This is why the cartels should be treated like a military, not a legal
problem.

Drone strikes, thermobaric bombs and an acceptable level of collateral damage.

There's plenty of El Chapos ready to take his spot, every decade or so you are
able to actually arrest one of them.

~~~
fsloth
No, the cartels are an economic problem.

Make drugs legal, and the problem will fade away with time.

Of course, not immediately. But when the lucrative funding of drug trade is
cut off, it will slowly diminish their might.

~~~
Rjevski
I used to believe that, but there was a recent article on here a few days ago
about cartels diversifying their sources of profit by dealing stolen fuel, so
although I support legalising drugs, I no longer think this will put an end to
the cartels.

~~~
Shaddox
While I understand your point, I don't think there's that much more money to
be made from stolen fuel compared to the goldmine of drugs. A kilo of cocaine
goes for around $26k in California. How much fuel would you need to sell in
order to make that much? In Mexico a liter of fuel goes for about $1.

~~~
asah
Drugs are also dense: $1mm in fuel is a huge quantity and hard to distribute.

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olliej
If this were a movie we could just attach a bomb to him that's set off if any
witnesses die.

But seriously at some point I find myself asking why we must have a trial with
witnesses. If you have so much accrued evidence that you know these steps are
necessary to protect witnesses that should be sufficient to give you life in
prison/death penalty.

Which is kind of gross, but if someone has clearly so much disregard for the
law, why should they get to abuse it?

~~~
wjnc
I think this a fair, populist point. I have the same struggles surrounding
policing and justice. There are categories of society that act so clearly
outside the societal norm that clear and present danger is easily established
(say terrorists actively plotting). Still we hold to our procedural law. The
killing squads of Duterte are an obvious example why you wouldn't want
00-style justice. But I do wonder if there is a middle ground. I presume not.
So that would be my current answer: we hold to procedural law for anyone and
everyone because any deviance from that is on a very short, slippery slope to
fascism and dictatorship. (I use the term fascism loosely, but the Latin
origin is appropriate.)

~~~
wallace_f
We are clearly living outside the norm right now. Any cursory examination of
history shows that slope to be insanely slippery. Even the subject of this
article is the product state-run tyranny on its own people.

Probably best to fight for those civil liberties we take for granted.

~~~
raverbashing
> Even the subject of this article is the product state-run tyranny on its own
> people

Oh yeah, poor him, oppressed by the government.

That kind of attitude only makes a huge mockery of those who obey the law.

~~~
wallace_f
You misinterpreted my comment.

My intended meaning is that if you end the War on Drugs, powerful, murderous
cartel bosses would no longer exist.

So even now, in times where we don't think of ourselves as living in tyranny,
our state is creating it. The War on Drugd has always been a war on people,
not a pro-humanity experiment.

