
Casper, Mattress Maker, Raises $170M and Plans I.P.O - peterkshultz
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/18/business/dealbook/casper-mattress-target-investment-initial-public-offering.html
======
joshuamcginnis
I got a sour taste in my mouth for Casper when I learned of their Federal
lawsuits against affiliate bloggers who reviewed their product. I personally
felt like Sleepopolis's review of Casper was as fair and observational as one
could get with such a thing.

Lawsuit Details: [https://sleepopolis.com/blog/casper-sues-sleepopolis-with-
fe...](https://sleepopolis.com/blog/casper-sues-sleepopolis-with-federal-
lawsuit/)

Casper Mattress Review: [https://sleepopolis.com/mattress-reviews/casper-
mattress-rev...](https://sleepopolis.com/mattress-reviews/casper-mattress-
review/)

~~~
Hydraulix989
That is absolutely insane, this "unlawful" review is as informative and
objective as it gets:

[https://sleepopolis.com/mattress-reviews/tuft-and-needle-
vs-...](https://sleepopolis.com/mattress-reviews/tuft-and-needle-vs-casper-
mattress-reviews/)

You shouldn't be able to sue someone for writing a review, this reeks of
violating one's First Amendment rights.

~~~
jackvalentine
Reading the complaint ([https://sleepopolis.com/wp-
content/uploads/2016/09/caspers-a...](https://sleepopolis.com/wp-
content/uploads/2016/09/caspers-amended-complaint.pdf)) it looks like Casper
is suing them for not disclosing their referral links are referral links
whilst alleging that they steer people away from products they don't get good
referrals on.

I have no idea about the basis or any of the details but it's not just "wrote
review, got sued".

~~~
DanBC
Here's a review from just before the first complaint. It doesn't seem to
mention any affiliate money.

[https://web.archive.org/web/20160427113129/http://sleepopoli...](https://web.archive.org/web/20160427113129/http://sleepopolis.com:80/mattress-
reviews/leesa-mattress-review/)

So, that might be a relevant complaint.

I'm not sure why, now the site has the needed disclosures, it's okay for
Casper to keep up the lawsuit.

~~~
bmelton
Damages don't need to be ongoing to have standing, and damages in the past are
still damages. The case isn't mooted by rectifying the situation that was
causing harm unless it ameliorates the financial harms caused.

~~~
Hydraulix989
How can you possibly assess damages for this without knowing how many
customers were lost because they were swayed into buying other mattresses
because of the review?

The linked review in question even strongly favors the Casper over the
competing Tuft & Needle mattress.

------
shanev
I did a ton of research on mattresses when getting a new bed two years ago.
Casper was my first choice since I heard so much about it from my startup
friends. I wanted one that was biodegradable with no off-gassing. I took a
deep dive into Casper's safety claims and it opened up a whole can of worms.

I've never seen an industry with so much greenwashing. The organizations that
certify the mattresses as being safe are comprised of the suppliers
themselves. They are basically chemical companies pushing cheap non-
biodegradable foam with crazy markups under exotic brand names. Casper just
sells this cheap foam with questionable safety standards like everyone else.
The only standard I found not to be shady was GOTS [1].

I ended up making my own mattress from slabs of organic latex. It was cheaper
and more comfortable than the Casper anyway. Now when I have guests over I can
easily remove a layer and have another temporary mattress. They ship
compressed and rolled up in boxes which were way smaller than the Casper one.
(Btw, the box advertised in Casper ads and in their showroom is nowhere near
the size of the actual delivered box. It's massive). If you don't want to make
your own, here's a good one: [https://sleeponlatex.com/products/natural-latex-
mattress](https://sleeponlatex.com/products/natural-latex-mattress).

[1] [http://www.global-standard.org](http://www.global-standard.org)

~~~
patrick_haply
For anyone else who has never heard of greenwashing like me two minutes ago:

> Greenwashing is like whitewashing with a green (environmental) brush:
> companies and organizations making themselves and their products sound or
> look like they’re really helping the environment. And they lure you in —
> creating the perception that you can help, too. In some cases you are
> helping. In some cases, it’s greenwashing.

Source: [http://greenwashingindex.com/about-
greenwashing/](http://greenwashingindex.com/about-greenwashing/)

~~~
rubyfan
Now I need to go look up whitewashing

------
halestock
For those looking for a new mattress, I'd highly recommend Thr Mattress
Underground[0]. It's an unbelievably comprehensive resource for mattress
reviews and discussion, and goes into great detail about the mattress industry
in general (and the "disruptors" including Casper, among others).

[0]
[https://www.themattressunderground.com](https://www.themattressunderground.com)

~~~
jaequery
i am on my fourth mattress, i took advantage of the 3 - 6 month trial periods
with these new online delivery mattress companies. :) if any more of these
keeps popping up, i could probably have a free mattress for whole 2 years! i'm
sorry but i'm just very picky i guess. :/

i've tried so far: casper, leesa, lull, and ghostbed.

honestly, lull is the best one so far for me. it has the most tempurpedic
style cushy feeling where your body seem to melt. i was most disappointed with
ghostbed with casper not too behind. leesa was also good too imo. next i want
to try is purple. gotta love this new trend, hope there are more of these in
other categories.

~~~
sushid
This, IMO, is extreme. I know it's nothing illegal and the cost of doing
business, but you've tried four mattresses already. You're costing all of
these companies real money with seemingly no real motivation to purchase the
mattress as you already have yet another mattress on your list.

You might benefit from reading up on
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_problem)
and I hope these mattresses stores create some sort of a shared blacklist of
customers to prevent freeloaders like you. This is how the average consumer
loses generous return policies from places like REI and Costco.

~~~
tedmiston
There's nothing wrong with giving products a free trial and returning those
you're unsatisfied with during the normal trial period. That's why it exists.

Unlike the secretary problem, the parent can re-buy any mattress at anytime,
and one person buying a mattress doesn't impact another's ability to buy the
same model. Additionally the decision can be deferred until after trying many
/ every model to make a better / optimal purchase.

REI taking its unlimited return policy down to one year was not from normal
trial usage but from a select few returning gear after years of usage.

------
02thoeva
In the UK, Eve, a rival maker also just (around a month ago) IPO'd here in the
UK. Their figures are scary at the moment, with a CPA hovering around
£250-£300 and returns of 15% on the mattresses with the 100-night trial. All
that with an average order value was only £450, on a product people buy every
10 years! They lost £11.3m last year on earnings of £12m, so no wonder their
shares have been on the decline since IPO.

The mattress market may be big, but there are so many clones - surely only one
or two can win out.

~~~
beager
That is a staggering CPA vis a vis product cost. Is that just based on the
congestion of keyword bidding? Or does CPA actually mean conversion/sale and
the path to close is very difficult?

I feel like Amazon could swoop in with a competitive offering and obliterate
the competition, if marketing and acquisition were the only barriers to
success. They've also got a lot of distribution infrastructure they can
leverage, which seems like another large hurdle.

What competitive barriers can companies like Casper or Eve put up? Can they
put up any? And how should that affect inclinations toward IPOs and
valuations?

Anecdotally, I've only ever seen Casper marketing on the NYC subway. Never
anywhere else. I enjoy the creative, but have no inclination to buy the
product, neither now nor the time that I will need to buy a new mattress.

~~~
SOLAR_FIELDS
Part of the success of Casper is the lack of choices - this is briefly touched
on in the article. They seem to want to take the Apple approach - offer few
choices and do them right, charging a healthy premium along the way.

I don't see any competitive advantage that Casper offers beyond that - Amazon
and WalMart have similarly lax return policies as Casper without the premium.
I can likely get the same quality mattress at one of the two above retailers
for slightly above half-price of the equivalent Casper offering.

I do see Casper billboards in Austin in the Domain, which is a mid-to-high
tier shopping center where the demographic skews younger. I've also heard ads
on podcasts. So they are advertising, though it doesn't seem like they are
targeting the typical channels for a mass audience, but rather are marketing
to the younger demographic.

------
tdeck
Worth listening to this story from Marketplace: Why are there so many mattress
stores?

[https://www.marketplace.org/2016/05/02/world/why-are-
there-s...](https://www.marketplace.org/2016/05/02/world/why-are-there-so-
many-mattress-stores)

Basically, mattresses in the US are sold at a very high markup (couple hundred
times the cost) so it's an easy way to make money.

~~~
ekianjo
> Basically, mattresses in the US are sold at a very high markup (couple
> hundred times the cost) so it's an easy way to make money.

then, is there any reason why no-one disrupts the market with cheaper
mattresses?

~~~
austenallred
That's what's happening

~~~
hueving
Where? I want a cheap good mattress and Casper just seems to be expensive.

~~~
brianwawok
Casper is 20% of the price of the mattress store.

Is your price target like $50 for a queen?

~~~
dagw
They're also twice the price of an IKEA mattress, so it's not exactly like
they're a massive bargain.

------
anilshanbhag
Is it me or does anyone else fine $550 twin size mattress insanely expensive ?
On amazon[0] you can find so many options under $100. I had one of these and
used it for two years - it was still good in the end.

[0] [https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-
alias%3...](https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-
alias%3Daps&field-keywords=twin+mattress&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Atwin+mattress)

~~~
lewisl9029
I moved into a new apartment not too long ago, and I was initially thinking of
getting a Casper for my new bed, but ended up going with one of the higher-end
foam mattresses on Amazon instead for ~$200:
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0125QZQNW](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0125QZQNW)

I've never tried a Casper, but this $200 mattress is by far the most
comfortable mattress I've ever slept on. It's honestly very difficult for me
to imagine how a Casper could justify its $400+ premium for someone who's even
slightly price conscious.

Maybe someone who has tried both a Casper and a $200~ foam mattress on Amazon
can shed some light on the differences.

~~~
Eric_WVGG
If the $200 foam mattress you bought is anything like the $100-odd foam
"mattress topper" I bought a few years ago, after about two years you'll find
it start to develop some dead spots where the foam doesn't spring back.

------
ronack
I shared a cowork space with some of the founders when they were struggling
with a previous soon-to-fail startup. It's inspiring to see how things worked
out the second time around.

~~~
kayhi
What were they working on?

------
nope123
So we can say in retrospect that the biggest bubble in Silicon Valley started
in the foam industry.

------
wonder_bread
How much R&D does Casper do in developing their mattresses? Seems like they're
more of a marketing experiment than a "bedtime is back" sleep revolution.

------
diogenescynic
I tried a bed in a box from another well rated brand and didn't like it. Felt
fine for a few days but gave me back problems after a week. I think there's a
reason hotels aren't using these foam mattresses--most people don't like them.
I see this as a fad to be honest, but I could also be wrong.

~~~
brianwawok
I have had my foam mattress for going on 10 years. Its great.

Very important not to go too soft. You need more dense foam after the top few
softer inches. Im not sure bed in a box can ever fit this dense of foam. My
foam mattress is 300 pounds and would take a really big box.

------
dmode
A company that sells expensive mattresses over the internet raises that much
money ? And is doing an IPO ? This is literally internet gone mad. Mattresses
are commodity products trying very hard to differentiate themselves.

------
draw_down
The only way to buy a bed that makes sense to me is to go to the store and lay
on them all, then buy the one that feels best. I don't understand apps and
websites for this. You will sleep on it every night, for years!

~~~
dagw
I did that as well when buying my last bed, but I do genuinely wonder how
rational it is. Is there really any correlation between how comfortable a bed
is to lie on for 30 seconds and how comfortable a bed is to sleep on after a
couple of month.

~~~
draw_down
Certainly more correlation than whatever you can gather from casper.com.

------
orliesaurus
I wonder how their 100 nights warranty works. Do they just come and pick the
mattress back from your house if you don't like it and do you get a full
refund? Anyone who bought it can explain? Are there hidden fees?

~~~
schmookeeg
We tried em in Los Angeles. Called on day 89, said we didn't like it -- they
asked us if we had a preferred charity to donate the used mattress to, we said
nope. They sent it to some homeless shelter apparently.

Refund came right back to the CC as promised. No hassles at all. Not even much
of a retention script, really. This was early 2016.

We sent it back because it was already starting to "set" and create a weird
ridge between my wife and I, who are side-sleepers. It's not for us, but the
company treated us just fine and as-promised.

$0.02

~~~
frenchpress
So Casper sent someone to pick the mattress up from your home? Were you
required to prep or pack it up before they would take it away?

~~~
doughj3
When we returned ours, Casper coordinated pickup via the nearest Salvation
Army who sent a truck to our place. We did not need to pack it up at all.

------
majewsky
I'm going to be in the market for a new mattress soon, so might as well "Ask
HN": Can anyone recommend a mattress with a reasonable price that I can buy in
Europe (Germany, specifically)?

~~~
joshvm
All these trendy mattress companies have 100 day free trials. My advice is to
try them all and pick the one that you like the best.

I have a Leesa which is good (I tried Casper previously), it's also available
in Germany. [https://www.leesa.de/](https://www.leesa.de/)

Reasonable price though? Perhaps not... someone else posted a link to a DIY
site though, which is probably worth trying. All these companies are basically
selling you three or four layers of off the shelf foam.

------
smaili
Any owners here care to share what Casper's "killer app" is?

~~~
DrJokepu
Their products are more affordable than much of their competition, they are
very comfortable and easy to assemble. They only have online retail presence,
no physical retail locations. The only thing I dislike about my Casper
mattress is that sitting on the edge of the bed is a bit uncomfortable.

~~~
vidoc
Plus they surf the 'ethical marketing' wave very big time.

e.g: If you buy a mattress from us, we'll donate one to someone in need.

TLDR -> You can only buy 2 mattresses from us and we will only give one to
you, cash in the moral benefit of being 'good', possibly get tax exemption on
your dollar. And btw, by doing this we don't just insult your intelligence, we
also kill the competition as there _are_ people competing on the market for
people in need already.

Fun hint, I remember shopping for a mattress few months ago, eventually seeing
their ads following me everywhere I'd go on the internet for a few weeks. But
not only that, 2 days later I received an actual letter with a 'deal' from
Casper.

Long story short, casper no thanks!

~~~
jseliger
Which is interesting, given this: [https://sleepopolis.com/blog/casper-sues-
sleepopolis-with-fe...](https://sleepopolis.com/blog/casper-sues-sleepopolis-
with-federal-lawsuit/) . Someone else posted it in this thread.

------
accountyaccount
good luck, there are like 10 clones out there already

~~~
peterkshultz
"It's exceptionally rare for startups to be killed by competitors—so rare that
you can almost discount the possibility."

\- Paul Graham
([http://paulgraham.com/startupideas.html](http://paulgraham.com/startupideas.html))

~~~
Pulcinella
Yes we all remember when Facebook failed to defeat MySpace...

~~~
wmichelin
One example is not indicative of the larger picture

~~~
Pulcinella
App.net lost to Twitter. Netscape lost to Microsoft. Yahoo lost to Google.
Ouya lost to Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo. Coin lost to existing payment
cards...

~~~
lumisota
The sentence that follows the quote is "So unless you discover a competitor
with the sort of lock-in that would prevent users from choosing you, don't
discard the idea.". Most of the winners in the examples you gave had
insurmountable lock-in (network effects, etc).

------
bgdkbtv
How the fuck!?

------
interfixus
Yet another little corner of life where I'm left wondering out in the dark.
Absolutely not denigrating anyone's preferences - it's just that I simply
don't get it: Give me a slab of foam rubber - and maybe give me a new one
after five or ten years - and I couldn't be happier. Fancy mattresses range -
in my limited view - from _quite on a level with foam_ down to _way too
squishy_.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _I simply don 't get it...give me a slab of foam rubber_

I drink my coffee black and my espresso unadorned. I'm not "wondering out in
the dark" why some prefer a cappuccino or venti frappé whatever-the-crap.
People have different preferences.

~~~
interfixus
May I recommend a little more wonder and a little less hostility?

~~~
visakanv
Where's the hostility?

------
mpermar
My inlaw family does run a mattress distribution company. They have
represented many brands over the last 30 years. There is one thing that never
changes, you get what you pay for. So before buying into the whole "cut the
intermediaries", "mattresses have big markups", lies - yes, lies, I'd advice
to do a lot of research and see what you buy.

I've run the idea of moving the family business to a similar online model to
what casper, eve and others are doing, with similar prices, margins, etc.
multiple times. and we always drop this idea off because it's impossible to
sell in the prices these companies do and sleep well with yourself, i.e. these
guys have the same margins but they sell pretty basic mattresses with a 5
years ( if you are lucky ) lifetime under regular use.

------
microcolonel
I'm not convinced that a mattress is even a useful product. I have been
mattress free for about a third of my life and it's basically fine.

The best argument for sleeping on a bed that I've heard is "chicks don't dig
it", which has not been my experience, certainly not once you get through the
door. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

~~~
xor1
What are you sleeping on instead?

~~~
microcolonel
Anything with about a centimetre of firm foam is fine. Yoga mats, work mats,
etc.

