
The Japanese Art of Grieving a Miscarriage - Thevet
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/06/well/family/the-japanese-art-of-grieving-a-miscarriage.html
======
alphonsegaston
Missing from this article is that while jizo statues are used to commemorate
miscarriage, they are far more commonly used to grieve over/religiously
absolve oneself of abortion. While I'm happy that the author found some relief
in this tradition, it struck me as odd that this was omitted. That
miscarriages and abortions were treated with the same ritual always spoke to
me as a more sincere expression of the suffering of women, especially given
the gender inequity in Japan. The NY Times also themselves wrote about this 20
years ago:

[https://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/25/world/in-japan-a-
ritual-o...](https://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/25/world/in-japan-a-ritual-of-
mourning-for-abortions.html)

~~~
m_mueller
I always found gender inequity in Japan quite different from how it was in the
West. To me it seems that Japanese women were comparatively highly respected.
Their role in society was different from that of the men, and still is, but
independently from that the _status_ of women was high since long ago. Just as
an example, Japanese wives have traditionally had full financial control over
the family budget - men got an allowance from them. I think wives/mothers in
traditional households were usually seen as the head of the family behind the
scenes, doing most of the important family decisions.

~~~
greglindahl
In the southern USA, women are "respected" until they violate social norms of
getting married and having children. I hear that women in Japan are still
expected to (and usually do) quit their jobs when they have a child. You might
try talking to some women in these situations to find out if they consider
that to be a situation in which they are "highly respected".

You might find
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Shinto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Shinto)
to be interesting reading.

~~~
m_mueller
Note that I never wrote that the situation is maximising happiness as-is and
shouldn't be changed. I just wanted to point out that the peculiarities of the
traditional female role in Japan differs quite a bit from Western societies,
and one should be careful to leave out assumptions that come from mirroring
our home culture.

One other example is that in Japan, the arguably most formative work of
literature is 'Tale of Genji' (~1000 AD!), written by a woman. This work has a
Dante's Inferno like status in Japan, in that it was both formative to both
Japanese language and culture. The closest you could compare it to in English
is if you combine the impacts of both the King James' bible and Shakespeare's
work.

This is just to show what I mean with cultural status of women in Japan - it
basically started since 1000 years ago when the women's way of writing
(Hiragana / vocabulary / grammar) has started to become more and more the
standard thanks to Lady Murasaki, and funnily enough this is still an ongoing
process with Kanji's still being dropped for Hiragana. I think you'd have a
hard time finding a historical Western woman with a comparable cultural impact
- Queen Elizabeth I is the only one I can think of.

~~~
greglindahl
Huh. I expressed no opinion that the situation was or wasn't maximizing
happiness as-is or should or should not be changed. I was recommending that
you talk to modern Japanese women about whether they feel "highly respected".

~~~
ekianjo
I think you don't understand the situation in Japan because you see it with
Western eyes. There are actually a lot of women who enjoy having this kind of
role in society (and who have no interest in a career) - just because they
were raised in that culture and do not reject it.

Now, it is true that if you are an ambitious woman in Japan, it is going to be
difficult to make a career for yourself and you will certainly face
discrimination at some workplaces. But that does not mean every woman is like
or feels like that.

~~~
greglindahl
Huh, I didn't express any opinion about the situation in Japan, so are you
actually replying to what I said? I definitely didn't say anything about what
every woman in Japan thinks or feels. I think HN discussion would be better
off if people responded to what was actually said, instead of repeatedly
making things up and responding to that. I say "repeatedly" because that
already happened in this thread.

------
jpatokal
FWIW, Jizo (地蔵, "Earth Treasury") is the Japanese version of the Buddhist
boddhisattva Kshitigarbha:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kshitigarbha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kshitigarbha)
(A boddhisattva being one who is enlightened, but chooses to hang around the
mortal planes to help others instead of flitting off to heaven.)

More traditionally, he's considered the patron saint of children (living ones
too) and travelers. The "baby Jizo" thing came about when he morphed from
being the _protector_ of unborn and recently died children to actually
_representing_ the unborn/dead child, and is as far as I know this is an
entirely Japanese adaptation.

Also, Jizo statues are common memorials for children who died young as well.
Every now and then, you run into one with a child's sandals, toys, snacks etc
beside it, which is pretty heart-breaking because you know that only a few
months ago there was a little toddler running around in those tiny pink
flipflops that are now bleaching in the sun and rain.

I was once at Hase-dera in Kamakura, which has an exceptionally large
collection of baby Jizos. There was an American tour group stomping through
and laughing at all these statues decorated with bibs and Hello Kitty figures
and even little bottles of sake, because isn't Japan just so wacky and crazy?
If they only knew the amount of heartbreak and pain they represent...

------
kickscondor
We do a similar thing with balloons - as I've gone through a miscarriage (with
my wife) and a pet dying after twelve years (with the kids too) - and
realizing that both were significant deaths for us that had no traditional
outlets for our feelings - a funeral felt strange in those cases - we wrote
goodbyes on balloons and let them go.

But there is something fun in a Jizo statue - that it makes an abstract
feeling more concrete.

~~~
Arizhel
>a funeral felt strange in those cases

Huh? Why? Back when I was married, we had a funeral every time one of our pets
died. Not some big affair with other people, of course, but just a small
little ceremony for ourselves in our home or in the backyard where we buried
the box.

Writing goodbyes on balloons and letting them go as you did can also be said
to be a form of a funeral.

~~~
kickscondor
True. Yeah I don't know - our children were very little and I guess I think of
a funeral as kind of byzantine thing for a handful of people to do.

We also didn't have a body in either case - maybe an empty box felt strange? I
don't know. I am also very into breaking from traditions.

------
jf
Americans would do well to adopt more mourning traditions. I recommend
everybody read "On Death and Dying" which I found to be very insightful and
quite helpful.

(edited to fix spelling)

~~~
serge2k
> more morning traditions

I have enough shit to do in the morning, and I'm not waking up earlier.

But really, why? Why can't America just do things the American way? Why do
people reject the idea that Americans are allowed to have their own culture?

~~~
pyre
> Why do people reject the idea that Americans are allowed to have their own
> culture? reply

No one said that they are not allowed to have their own culture. Read the post
you are replying to again. It is implying that American are _lacking_ in
mourning traditions and that some should be adopted. Looking at what other
cultures do is a start, but there's nothing to say that these new mourning
traditions couldn't be entirely new, and specific to Americans.

~~~
serge2k
> No one said that they are not allowed to have their own culture

No, people just constantly assert that other cultures are better and that
Americans should adopt their values instead.

~~~
pyre
You're tilting at windmills here. The original post did _not_ say this, yet
this is what you are continuing to rant about.

------
nihonde
My neighborhood in Japan is surrounded by graveyards, including many, many
jizo. At first, I was creeped out by the ever-present reminders of death, but
now I feel it is a very healthy society that confronts mortality head-on and
makes death part of the visible landscape of daily life.

~~~
markdown
In Samoa and American Samoa, family members are usually buried beside their
homes. It's not completely uncommon for homes to later be extended, causing
the graves to be inside the houses or in the verandah.

I visited the home of a distant family member (by marriage) once and their
grandparents graves were inside what had become the sitting room/lounge.

[http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i3DWwUsLFBU/Tq3D2VDcwgI/AAAAAAAAAQ...](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i3DWwUsLFBU/Tq3D2VDcwgI/AAAAAAAAAQc/b7gOsDYOfVM/s1600/Grave1.JPG)

~~~
mc32
In the American South one can also find "familial graveyards" [1] Although
it's a dying tradition, as I understand it.
[1][https://geanderson.wordpress.com/2010/09/22/now-about-
that-c...](https://geanderson.wordpress.com/2010/09/22/now-about-that-
cemetery-in-the-backyard%E2%80%A6/)

------
yati
This is a great story, and I'm glad that a simple tradition helped comfort a
fellow human. But while I do understand that most people likely do not take
the religious reasons behind rituals too seriously, I find the following
wicked:

> According to Buddhist belief, a baby who is never born can’t go to heaven,
> having never had the opportunity to accumulate good karma.

I'm no scholar in these matters, but almost every religion has some sort
emotional torture built in for parents of miscarried/aborted children :(

~~~
shanusmagnus
The Mormons have a clever hack for this - on Fridays they have a group that
"baptizes the dead" to make up for it. The true believers around here set
great store by it.

~~~
jdmichal
Catholicism isn't _terrible_ in this regard, either. They actually take a
rather agnostic approach, which is refreshing to see.

[http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_d...](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-
baptised-infants_en.html)

Basic summary is that they rely on God to judge, and instead _hope_ that He
finds them worthy.

------
gohrt
The headline has a distasteful fetishizing tone, but the article is a
respectful appreciation of a valuable cross-cultural lesson.

------
enimodas
I've never understood why people grieve after a miscarriage. Similarly, I was
surprised to learn that many people find having an abortion to be somewhat
traumatic. I've never had children and I hopefully never will.

Anybody else feels similar or wants to explain? Is it cultural, all just
pregnancy hormones or something else?

~~~
careersuicide
An aunt of mine had two (or three?) miscarriages before having her first
child. Each time she was absolutely devastated. Honestly I'm pretty surprised
that anyone would find that hard to understand. I'm not really big on children
(and am childless myself) but trying hard to intentionally get pregnant* ,
anticipating a child for months, preparing yourself emotionally, and even
making space in your home for a child, only to have a miscarriage has got to
be one of the most traumatic things I can imagine. Short of losing an already
born child or a spouse. In the case of my aunt she went through a really rough
time where she blamed herself and later God for her suffering. I don't think
that's cultural at all. I think that's just part of being human.

As someone who isn't really interested in having kids it's easy to forget that
some people _really_ want them. It is baked into our DNA and has been since
before we as a species walked the Earth. If the pregnancy wasn't an accident
then it's no wonder people mourn over a miscarriage. As far as they were
concerned it was their future child. And I say that as someone who is very
much not pro-life.

* Conception is not as easy as abstinence-only education would have you believe. Some perfectly fertile couples try for years before successfully conceiving.

~~~
wmboy
> Some perfectly fertile couples try for years before successfully conceiving.

If both partners are young and healthy then they should have a bun in the oven
within 4 months, otherwise something is abnormally wrong.

~~~
erroneousfunk
As long as we're nit-picking here, 4 months of trying doesn't mean that
something is wrong. Most doctors ask couples to try for a year before seeing a
specialist (unless the woman is older, then wait 6 months or less).

Take a group of fertile 22 year old women, for example. Each one has about a
25% chance per month of getting pregnant, while trying to conceive. After four
months, you can expect that about 30% of the original group still will have
not conceived (75% ^ 4). Absolutely nothing wrong with them, it's just a
numbers game.

Spreading misinformation like "a bun in the oven within 4 months, otherwise
something is abnormally wrong" is awful for couples who are trying to conceive
for a few months, and already stressed out enough about it.

