
Imperial College London charge £28,000 for their online MSc degree on Coursera - druml
https://www.coursera.org/degrees/msc-machine-learning-imperial
======
ticmasta
Also of note - this appears to be the UK-style of master's vs. the typical
path a lot of us may be more familiar with, in the sense of very strong
undergrads complete a 4th year and earn a Master's vs. finish an undergrad and
then spend 2+ years (1 year classes, 1 year lab/thesis) as an in-betweener
before Doctoral programs.

It seems very expensive for 2-yrs of part-time, online work. I did a MSc in
Canada part time and it took me almost three years of year-round effort,
completing the course requirements 2 or 3 per semester (which is more than 1/2
time). Because I was P/T I paid full tuition but it was still less than
$5K/yr. F/T grad students were almost all on scholarship or covered tuition
via RA pr TA duties.

IMO, if you want more than the credentials on your resume this would be an
expensive and disappointing grad school experience and of limited value.

------
faizshah
One of the important parts of learning at a university is meeting fellow
students, exchanging ideas, and building relationships. It seems for 36k USD
you’re really overpaying for losing this face to face time with other
students, imo video calls just aren’t the same.

~~~
MattPalmer1086
I did an MSc online distance learning back in 2003 from Royal Holloway. I
built a lot of useful relationships and had great conversations with my fellow
online students.

Our lecturers said we were far more social than the campus students, who just
went to lectures, the library, or home. Probably because we were all sitting
on our own in front of a computer, so actively tried to counteract the
loneliness of it...

------
zerr
One thing to note - if you're interested only in pedigree - nobody gives a
sh*t about Coursera, Udacity, edX or similar "online" labeled stuff.

~~~
bonoboTP
An important quote from the FAQ:

> Will my diploma state that I was in an online programme?

> No, your diploma will not state that this is an online degree.

Personally, I find this practice quite questionable and deceptive.

~~~
skocznymroczny
While I also find it questional, perhaps it will lessen the effect of a
degree. In the end, you shouldn't need a degree if you have the skills.
Nowadays, it can be hard for self-taught developers to get in the industry,
just because they don't have a paper from a famous university.

~~~
bonoboTP
> In the end, you shouldn't need a degree if you have the skills.

A university degree has multiple purposes.

As a student, you want to learn stuff and network with fellow students and get
a paper.

As an employer, you see that the applicant has work ethic, knows the cultural
norms, can obey orders, can interact with people in the field etc. And also
that they have a fundamental knowledge of the field.

However, a university degree in computer science is not and should not be
expected to be a developer training course.

It's very feasible to become a developer in a self-taught way and work
productively in industry, building websites, CRUD apps, mobile apps etc. No
need for a degree here.

It's much less feasible to self-teach computer science and math and so on. A
university program will force you to do it even when it's not pleasurable. But
it won't teach you practical web design skills etc. because that isn't its
purpose.

What we have today is definitely a bad arrangement. Many students study a
field they are ultimately aren't interested in and won't use, just to fulfill
employers' requirements.

~~~
User23
> It's much less feasible to self-teach computer science and math and so on. A
> university program will force you to do it even when it's not pleasurable.

I'd wager that computing science autodidacts find study pleasurable for it's
own sake. Advanced graduate and post-graduate work notwithstanding, the most
advanced math you need to master CS fundamentals (and then some) is the
predicate calculus and some analysis. These are nontrivial, but certainly much
easier than what one would deal with in a typical pure math undergrad program.
They are well within the abilities of an enthusiastic hacker with a solid high
school education (up to calc 1) to master from textbooks without coercion.

> As an employer, you see that the applicant has work ethic, knows the
> cultural norms, can obey orders, can interact with people in the field etc.
> And also that they have a fundamental knowledge of the field.

As an employer, an autodidact who has mastered the subject has demonstrated to
me the ability to be passionate and act on his own initiative. I personally
value that higher than a proven track record of conformity and trained
obedience. That said, organizations differ, and for many large companies where
90% of the work is busywork, the autodidacts will get bored and leave in short
order. So don't hire them if the work is fundamentally pointless salary
justification.

~~~
bonoboTP
Out of 100 people who call themselves autodidact CS people, how many are like
the ones you describe, who spend years to work their way through CS theory
books to the extent that would be required by passing exams with good grades?

Let's ignore for the moment whether it's even needed, whether devs will just
code stuff that doesn't need much math anyway etc. as that's a different
topic. I want to focus on whether autodidacts get the same level of CS
knowledge as university graduates (with good grades).

My CS education did have a lot of difficult math that I enjoyed but in a
running-a-marathon way, not in an eat-a-piece-of-cake way. Having regular
lectures, homework and topics given to you by experts in a logical order is
very important for many people like myself, so they have no gaps and get a
well-rounded overview of CS fundamentals. Designing your own curriculum is
often how you end up being a crank as well (e.g. see "autodidact physicists").

And it's not just calculus and analysis, but also graph theory, complexity
theory, abstract algebra, linear algebra, complex numbers, formal languages
and automata, information theory, theory of compression and encryption
algorithms, signal processing like Fourier theory, control theory,
optimization and machine learning, and various other things you learn here and
there, such as Petri nets, quaternions etc.

And also, outside of extraordinary life circumstances, why not get admitted to
a university anyway, if you're so enthusiastic about all this theory stuff
that you'd learn it to good-grade level just by your own motivation anyway?
For example in Germany, university is free and if you prefer you can even skip
all the lectures if you don't think they give you value and just take the
exams, while studying in your preferred autodidactic fashion.

My default assumption, unless convinced otherwise by evidence, is that self-
taught devs can put together functioning code and have familiarity with CS
terminology but only a vague folk understanding of the details.

Most people who argue that university is superfluous are usually those who
could not pass the exams due to a lack of interest and/or talent (or live in a
country with tuition fees they cannot afford, such as the US).

~~~
User23
> Out of 100 people who call themselves autodidact CS people, how many are
> like the ones you describe, who spend years to work their way through CS
> theory books to the extent that would be required by passing exams with good
> grades?

Admittedly I've only personally met order dozens of them or so in the course
of a decades long career, which is why I try to snap them up when I find them.
I said it's a powerful signal, not that it's common or even an advisable path
for those with alternatives.

> My CS education did have a lot of difficult math that I enjoyed but in a
> running-a-marathon way, not in an eat-a-piece-of-cake way.

Makes sense to me, I enjoy it in a hitting-a-new-max-lift kind of way, which I
imagine is pretty similar. I prefer to associate with people who, degree or
otherwise, derive joy from improving themselves both mentally and physically.

> And it's not just calculus and analysis, but also graph theory, complexity
> theory, abstract algebra, linear algebra, complex numbers, formal languages
> and automata, information theory, theory of compression and encryption
> algorithms, signal processing like Fourier theory, control theory,
> optimization and machine learning, and various other things you learn here
> and there, such as Petri nets, quaternions etc.

The predicate calculus[1] plus analysis is sufficient for effective study of
every sub-discipline you list. Obviously I assume proficiency in algebra as a
prerequisite of analysis. Complex numbers and quaternions become far less
intimidating when you realize they're just 2 or 4 dimensional state spaces,
which are trivial in scale and potential complexity compared to what any
computing scientist deals with.

> And also, outside of extraordinary life circumstances, why not get admitted
> to a university anyway, if you're so enthusiastic about all this theory
> stuff that you'd learn it to good-grade level just by your own motivation
> anyway? For example in Germany, university is free and if you prefer you can
> even skip all the lectures if you don't think they give you value and just
> take the exams, while studying in your preferred autodidactic fashion.

Deutschland ist doch voll geil, aber die meisten von uns wohnen nicht da.

> My default assumption, unless convinced otherwise by evidence, is that self-
> taught devs can put together functioning code and have familiarity with CS
> terminology but only a vague folk understanding of the details.

Funny, that's my default assumption for all CS grads who have a degree from
anywhere other than continental Europe (including Russia) or one of the most
elite US or UK programs. I had to stop asking "write a binary search on the
whiteboard" as an interview question because after five tries nobody managed
it correctly and they all had degrees from good CS programs.

[1] I assume you are German and CS programs in Western Europe are generally,
especially with respect to theoretical rigor, superior to most in the USA, so
perhaps you'll understand that I mean "predicate calculus" in the sense that
Dijkstra and Scholten used in the tradition of Leibniz.

------
rwmj
The "offline" course prices are here. It seems like the roughly equivalent MSc
degree offline would be £15.5K for home and EU students and £33,250 for
overseas students. You would have to add to that living expenses which are
considerable in London (perhaps another £20K)
[https://www.imperial.ac.uk/students/fees-and-
funding/tuition...](https://www.imperial.ac.uk/students/fees-and-
funding/tuition-fees/postgraduate-tuition-fees/2020-21/taught-postgraduate-
programmes/faculty-of-engineering/)

I did an MSc in Computer Science at Imperial (long before online courses
existed) and it was by far the hardest academic thing I have ever done.
Imperial is academically excellent, and likely the best university for science
subjects in the UK and perhaps top 5 in the world. Having said that I'm sure
much of the value is from being there with other students and teachers, and I
don't know how much of that you're getting from an online course.

------
theriddlr
My INTERNATIONAL FEES for my MSc in Bristol was in 2013 only cost £ 17k. This
includes lots of face-to-face contact with lecturers who are research leaders
in the field. With living expenses the total would only be £ 30k. Inflation
makes the total closer to £ 40k today.

However, for £ 28k, Europeans can study at Imperial in-person and live (albeit
on a budget) in London.

------
rvz

       What you get:
        Imperial College branded online MSc degree.
       What you need:
        At least a GPA of 3.9 and £28k+.
    

So, One year for a online masters at £28k also requiring a three year BSc
degree at £25k of debt sounds like your really getting your money's worth. /s

(This is £14k more expensive than a normal masters degree at Imperial)

~~~
arcturus17
Where does it say GPA of 3.9? All I've found is 2:1 for UK universities and
anywhere between 3-3.5 for US. Also they say it won't say it's online.

~~~
rvz
They don't need to say it, but because they said the 'minimum' is a 2:1 / 3
GPA it doesn't mean that you will be considered for an interview. If too many
people basically applied with the minimum at Imperial, they will just select
those with the higher results.

On the safe side, I intentionally said '3.9' GPA / high 1st because it totally
beats their requirement of a 2:1 which the competition will try to match. If
anyone is seriously considering this university, they should instead get a 3.9
GPA, not a 3 or 2:1.

------
spzb
University education in the UK has become increasingly commercialised and
increasingly expensive. Undergraduate tuition fees are over £9k a year (it was
zero when I went to university 20 years ago). Those fees are capped by
government but universities are free to charge what they like to overseas
students so they are rather treated as cash cows.

~~~
iso1824
> Undergraduate tuition fees are over £9k a year (it was zero when I went to
> university 20 years ago).

That's wrong.

In 2000 the fees that the UK student had to pay was £1000 a year (£1700 in
today's currency), and the government paid about £3000 - a total of £4000, or
£6800 in today's money.

Students had to pay this upfront to study. In 2006 these upfront fees were
dropped.

~~~
shawabawa3
Student fees were introduced september 1998, or just over 21 years ago

Technically they're wrong but it's a very minor change to their point

~~~
iso1824
Not really, they were still £4000, its just that the government paid the full
amount rather than 75% (20 years ago)

------
jdkee
Shamefully the Univ. of Illinois charges $21k for an online master of CompSci.

[https://cs.illinois.edu/academics/graduate/professional-
mcs-...](https://cs.illinois.edu/academics/graduate/professional-mcs-
program/online-master-computer-science)

------
RomanBob
University is just an overpriced IQ test anyway.

We want to delude ourselves that everybody has the capability to be a doctor,
programmer, engineer, successful business owner etc. We ban employees from
using IQ tests, when SAT scores correlate strongly with IQ. Then the best
companies hire from the best universities where the best students with the
highest SAT go i.e. they just hire the highest IQ people in each year slot.

To fund this delusion we would then have to make university available to
everybody, as if a degree is in a vacuum a token of value and not the fact
that a degree is relatively scarce. A degree when everybody has one isn't
worth as much as when only 50% of people have one.

And of course the law of supply/demand makes degrees more expensive when
everybody has one, but makes the degrees less useful economically when
everybody has one. Double-dipped.

~~~
gmac
You're effectively claiming that university teaches nothing, but good degrees
teach independence, critical thinking (analysis, synthesis), research skills,
writing, teamworking, presentation skills, and much more.

Added to that, your final grade indicates ability x effort. This is
significantly more useful than a narrow measure of ability alone.

~~~
nicoburns
> good degrees teach independence, critical thinking (analysis, synthesis),
> research skills, writing, teamworking, presentation skills, and much more.

Sadly there aren't a lot of those. Most degrees teach regurgitating what a
textbook says in a fancy way that means you pass the "I understood it" test.

~~~
rchaud
I was an Econ major in college, which is one of the most popular majors across
all schools in the US. I don't remember even having a textbook beyond the
first couple of statistics courses. We were only ever graded on problem sets
or term papers with some kind of statistical analysis component.

That said, my American Economic History course was easily one of the most eye-
opening learning experiences, and absolutely one of those courses where "I
understood the reading" was necessary. It greatly expanded by ability to
understand why the economic story played out the way it did, and how much of
it was based on the societal and political context of the times, and not on
the findings of bean counters doing stat analyses.

------
blakesterz
That's about $36,000 US. Honest question... is that crazy expensive? How does
it compare to other online and on campus programs? I'm guessing it's HIGH?

~~~
mettamage
In The Netherlands fees are about $12k, so yea. You can do the same thing in
Amsterdam, _and live here_.

It's still one of the reasons why I'm dreaming of starting up a coding school
at Dutch prices and market it to US citizens.

If anyone is interested in starting this with me, let me know! I'm Dutch, if
you're American and know the market, we might make an interesting team. I
taught at the New York Code + Design Academy as a bootcamp instructor in
Amsterdam before (some US citizens came here because it was cheaper).

~~~
skrebbel
It's cheaper in NL because the government subsidizes universities. How would
your private coding bootcamp get that subsidy?

~~~
mettamage
The $12K per year is not from the direct subsidy. That all Dutchies know
about. Also, Americans can't get that subsidy. IMO, it's almost always a
better play for Americans to study abroad since European uni's are
qualitatively high and cheap (compared to US), even unsubsidized.

Maybe there are some subsidies I don't know about, but that would not be
general knowledge among Dutch people then.

The subsidies from government work like this:

\- A student pays $2k per year (ok euro, whatever, can't find it on keyboard)

\- The government pays about $8k per year

That adds up to $10k, bachelors are sligthly cheaper (I only heard the numbers
for bachelors).

So if you don't want to pay the subsidy, you need to pay the full $10k
(bachelor), or $12k (master)[1].

[1] Prices vary per university between $12k to $25k. About 75% of all
education is on the $12k level (I've looked at this a lot), some are at $25k
such as dentistry and I think med school is a bit more expensive.

Here are some prices (click on master (pdf) ):
[https://students.uu.nl/praktische-
zaken/geldzaken/collegegel...](https://students.uu.nl/praktische-
zaken/geldzaken/collegegeld/collegegeld-voor-studenten-met-een-graad)

I'm now seeing that they have jacked it up since I last checked. I'm wondering
what other Dutch universities have done.

------
azinman2
Guess they want you to take this seriously!

------
siliconunit
rip off Britain... nothing new

------
jppope
British people are funny.

