
Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington - Preemo
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/05/26/us/turkey-protesters-attack-video-analysis.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
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werewolf359
In this video of the attack:
[https://twitter.com/MahirZeynalov/status/865301089867923456](https://twitter.com/MahirZeynalov/status/865301089867923456)

a bodyguard is seen talking to someone in the back of a car. That bodyguard
nods to another bodyguard, who then walks towards the protest. The attack
begins the second he arrives at the line.

Later, the person in the back of the car gets out. It's Erdogan.

This video didn't get as much press as it should have, I suppose since you
can't say it's "proof" he ordered the attack. But come on.

~~~
ehsankia
I was honestly surprised that NYT did such a beautiful in depth analysis of
videos and didn't have this video in there. How can you do an in depth
research on that incident and not have this vital video?

I wonder if with modern machine learning backed algorithms, we can do a semi-
decent job at reading some of the lips in that video.

~~~
ngcazz
What? It's near the bottom.

~~~
ehsankia
I was either having a really slow day or it was added later.

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santaclaus
> He repeatedly kicked Ms. Usoyan, 34, as she lay on the ground. According to
> New Jersey records, Mr. Yildirim is 50 and manages three companies in that
> state.

Mr. Yildrim does not appear to have diplomatic immunity, so why aren't assault
and battery charges being levied against him?

~~~
lifeformed
I don't think diplomatic immunity protects the rest of them either. It's not a
free license to commit any crimes they want.

~~~
logicallee
>It's not a free license to commit any crimes they want.

That's exactly what it is. The hosting country can ONLY just tell them they
are "persona non grata". (Expel them.)

Of course, they may face charges in their home country or be extradited. Their
home country can waive their diplomatic immunity - and do so for their
diplomats acting criminally in other countries.

But 100% of all of these actions are on the _home_ country. The host country
can do absolutely nothing besides expel them or complain to their home
country.

Let me know if you see anything to the contrary here or anywhere else online:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity)

~~~
gech
Wars were started over less. Maybe a little more patriotism is called for
nowadays

~~~
krapp
>Wars were started over less.

We're still dealing with the consequences of a war we started for apparently
no reason other than than wanting to do it. Maybe we should _raise_ the bar
for going to war, and not keep lowering it.

~~~
pyre
Yes, but right now the actions being taking in response are _substantially_
less than going to war.

------
muse900
I found this video a few days ago on reddit:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWxm-
bxgP9g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWxm-bxgP9g)

One thing that I found intriguing as an engineer is that Ertogan's bodyguards
etc are trying to shout louder than the protesters.

At first I thought ok thats natural, 2 parties have a disagreement and then
each tries to be louder.

The sound from Ertogan's trained personnel thought isn't exactly an argument.
You'll hear through the whole video the sound : 'EEEEEEEEEE' coming up from
his bodyguards which is definitely not argument, just a way to mask protesters
voice.

So to conclude my point, is that Ertogan has trained soldiers trying to shout
louder than the protesters so he won't hear anything bad about him. Pretty
much the same he is doing to his country by blocking wikipedia etc.

I can only think of one other person that would do such a thing, Kim.

~~~
bigdubs
DJT is not far off.

------
cmurf
This same scenario happened last year outside the Brookings Institution. I
suspect the reason why there's such good video coverage of this year's attack,
is they were ready for it, based on what happened last year.

In the short term, I agree with John McCain, the Turkish ambassador to the
U.S. should be expelled over this event.

What precedes all of this is the U.S. supports the YPG, which Erdogan
considers a terrorist organization. Pretty much any Kurdish organization is
probably considered a terrorist organization to the Turkish government,
however. The U.S. supports the YPG, makes Erdogan look weak in that he doesn't
have enough sway to get one of their worst domestic political and ethnic
enemies disenfranchised by the U.S. so Erdogan retaliates with thugs right in
the U.S. capitol to embarrass the Trump (and last year the Obama)
adminstration. It's tit for tat.

Long term, is whether a Turkish autocracy, which is what it is now, a viable
member in NATO? I think the U.S. looks the other way as long as Turkey helps
fight Daesh. But Turkey is now a stain on NATO's democratic origin and
purpose.

~~~
IIAOPSW
>Long term, is whether a Turkish autocracy, which is what it is now, a viable
member in NATO? I think the U.S. looks the other way as long as Turkey helps
fight Daesh. But Turkey is now a stain on NATO's democratic origin and
purpose.

Unless Turkey loses control of the Bosphorous straits or Russia stops being
what it is, Turkey will always be welcome at the table. Help with Daesh and/or
pushing democratic ideas is neither the purpose of NATO, nor the origin of
NATO, nor the future of NATO.

~~~
cmurf
"NATO promotes democratic values" [http://www.nato.int/nato-
welcome/index.html](http://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html)

And Erdogan, right now, is doing the opposite of that. It is completely valid
to question Turkey's role in NATO, but the current U.S. president doesn't care
about or even understand what democracy is, because he's an ignoramous about
pretty much everything. All he cares about is "winning" and that's why he
praises autocrats like Erdogan, Duerte, Salman, Kim Jong Un, and el-Sisi,
while criticizing American allies. I think he's kinda jealous of autocrats who
get things done and doesn't have to deal with silly legislatures and courts.
So I have no doubt that this administration will be fine with Turkey staying
in NATO for the foreseeable future despite the incongruity on democratic
values.

------
Keyframe
Great analysis, but I must ask the obvious question. US citizens attacked by
foreign entities on US soil. What gives?

~~~
spodek
We can't change the past, but as an American, my question is what will my
government do to protect its citizens and how will it obtain justice for them.
Will it even try?

Let's hope the fourth estate holds the first three accountable.

~~~
draw_down
I'm guessing nothing will happen. I have no idea if diplomatic immunity
applies, but also the president and Erdogan are friendly. And, we have a lot
of contempt for protestors in our country.

~~~
jacquesm
One wanna-be dictator to another, my guess is nothing will happen.

~~~
draw_down
Mmm, I think one of them is less of a wannabe than the other. At least so far.

~~~
evan_
One is just earlier in his career

~~~
tehlike
i don't think trump will be a dictator. it doesn't look like he has that
intention - his steps are not cohesive, and not deeply rooted to assert his
absolute authority.

not to mention the us has better foundation of democracy.

~~~
evan_
He signs unconstitutional orders and then attacks the court when they strike
them down. He heaps praise on dictators and slams democratic allies. He
probably won't be a dictator because he's incompetent but it's clear how he
wants to operate.

~~~
tehlike
Probably, but dictatorship comes as more fundamental. Signing orders is the
worst way to do it. You first grow a base thqt would support you, bring them
into positions that would strenghten your absolute power. Sure trump is doing
that somewhat but i dont think it is happening at fundamental levels. You also
need charisma somewhat.

Good thing is, the US has the checks and balances that would make it really
hard for him to achieve his potential goal. It takes more than one guy to make
it happen.

I have seen it first hand, in Turkey.

------
Zaheer
The footage is really well edited to highlight what's going on. I wonder if
it's actually multiple footage augmented together or just single footage. At
least it feels as so.

~~~
jxramos
I'm totally impressed. The folks who generated this content should very much
be given more assignments of the like. It's very much going to set a gold
standard with future video highlights, especially in this age of video camera
ubiquity with cell phones, surveillance, badge cams, dash cams, etc.

------
all_usernames
America is in a sad, sad state when there is no recourse for something like
this. What are we, afraid of diplomatically insulting an Islamist
dictatorship?

~~~
mattalbie
It's more of a practical concern. Our diplomats and their details operate in
places like Turkey every day and we want those governments to grant us lots of
leeway when dealing with the local population. That being said, this is a
spectacular display of diplomatic idiocy.

~~~
contingencies
This comment is pretty fascist. The notion that it's OK to run around
assaulting peaceful protesters because that gives you the scope to similarly
ignore human rights elsewhere, and the phrasing "deal with" ... really don't
sit well with me. A lot of what is wrong with the world rests on this kind of
thinking.

~~~
mattalbie
I never said it was ok to treat people like that, or that I agree with that
line of thinking at all. Describing something fascist doesn't make me fascist.
Just that I suspect that is the calculation that goes on when a person decides
to overlook this kind thing (which would normally be dealt with as a criminal
action). Also tried to point out that there are countless stories of American
diplomats and security teams behaving badly.

------
codezero
This is a pretty amazing compilation, is there any recourse for this? Are
these security guards protected by diplomatic immunity? Is that a stupid
question?

~~~
jedmeyers
Not stupid, and they most likely have immunity, if they are officially a part
of the delegation.

~~~
wpietri
That's my understanding too. Although I believe that the US could ban those
individuals from having immunity in the future and eject them from the
country, which is certainly what I'd advocate for here.

~~~
joshuamorton
There's a wiki article somewhere that was brought up when this discussion
happened on reddit that states that members of security details aren't usually
granted immunity, only consular officials are.

EDIT: I found it [0]

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic_immunity_in_the_United_States)

------
wavefunction
I'm waiting for Mr. Erdogan's next visit to the United States.

I plan to travel to D.C. then and stand in solidarity with anyone who wants to
express their freedom of speech within the borders of the US.

Mr. Erdogan and his thuggish retinue insulted the very nature of his hosts,
who have been far too gracious to some very undeserving guests.

------
anigbrowl
Top-notch editing work and presentation, really impressive.

Don't want to get diverted into politics but I was appalled by not only the
incident itself but the fact that Turkey then summoned the US ambassador in
Ankara to complain about DC police trying to break up the fight. This is not a
healthy sign for the future.

~~~
Kenji
>Don't want to get diverted into politics

I don't think this has much to do with politics. If you're right, left or
center, libertarian or authoritarian, doesn't matter, it's basic morality that
this unwarranted aggression is wrong and must have consequences. If I was the
president under which such a thing happened, I would make sure the
consequences are severe enough that it would never happen again under my term.

~~~
krapp
> If I was the president under which such a thing happened, I would make sure
> the consequences are severe enough that it would never happen again under my
> term.

This particular president offered to pay the bail for anyone who "kicked the
crap" out of protesters at one of his campaign rallies... I doubt he even sees
it as a problem.

------
arca_vorago
I immediately called for two things. The NRA to organize an armed protest, and
to persona-non-grata all attackers not American citizens, and to arrest those
that are and don't have DI (diplomatic immunity).

What happened is the Turks are thugs, and when they heard/saw pro PKK
"protestors" they consider "terrorists" they wanted to make an example of
them. I'm guessing it was also a distraction technique for Erdogan to proceed
to wherever he was headed.

What is most shameful to me, is the response from the DC police. If armed
foreign thugs are attacking americans, It's time to escalate force. They were
straight up sucker-kicking/punching women and old men already on the ground...
shots that could have killed or could cause concussion or brain damage.

What no one is talking about is how deeply Turkey has infiltrated the US intel
community (lookup Sibel Edmonds for more info), or the fact they we let Turkey
get away with this stuff because of geostrategic realpolitik. Turkey is also
funding and arming ISIS against the Kurds because to them the Kurds are a
greater threat.

~~~
elihu
There's not much the police could have done. Erdogan's bodyguards had guns and
there were more of them -- possibly soldiers in the embassy with rifles, as
well. There would have been a shootout, and most likely all of the police and
perhaps some/all of the protesters as well would have been dead.

I think we should be treating this as an attack by the government of Turkey
against United States civilians. They are no longer an ally. I suspect that we
unfortunately have more to lose than Turkey by ending our friendly
relationship, but so be it. Staying in a dysfunctional relationship isn't good
for either country.

I would like to see the bodyguards prosecuted, but at the same time I expect
they are operating under some kind of threat worse than what the United States
legal system could potentially do to them. Maybe their wives and daughters
will be arrested if they don't attack certain protesters? They may be in a no-
win situation. The best thing may be to just get them to leave and not return,
even if that offends our sense of justice.

~~~
arca_vorago
> There's not much the police could have done. Erdogan's bodyguards had guns
> and there were more of them...

I have heard this argument from multiple sources regarding this event but it
seems to be based on a misunderstanding of how things like this work, so I
strongly disagree. I've been trained on similar situations, and I know the
escalation of force procedures in general (DC police are weird sometimes), and
the second they saw Turkish nationals punching and kicking old men and women
on the ground is the second they should have been escalating force. No,
lightly tapping a dude sucker punching a woman on the ground with a baton on
the back is not good enough. Sorry, but it simply isn't. I've been beaten
worse in fucking training scenarios as the protestor.

Again, the real issue here to me is the lackidasical way in which the DCPD
responded. IF they were afraid to enforce the law outside of the embassy there
is a _much_ bigger problem here than people are talking about. The same thing
works for Americans in embassies abroud. They have a close relationship with
and work with the host countries police and other forces... but they are
notoriously well trained to not engage beyond embassy perimiter unless
absolutely necessary. The fact that you think we should be afraid to enforce
the law on Turkish nationals outside but close to their embassy says to me
that if you are right, that embassy needs to be shut down, but in general I
think you are wrong.

Now, I'm not a cop. I used to be a knuckle-dragging door-kicker, not a fat
mall cop like most of the pd in the video look like. I don't know exactly what
the pd's _should_ have done, but I do know what they did _wasn 't it_.

To put it another way. If American DSS (Diplomatic Security Service) showed up
in England escorting Trump near the new US embassy, and the DSS rushed British
protestors and just start fucking them up, I would fully support and expect
the Brits to have arrested every single one, wait for diplomatic immunity to
be verified (or not), and then proceed accordingly (persona-non-grata for
those with, arrest and charge for those without). What I would not expect is
to just let DSS walk back to _their_ embassy as if they hadn't broken a dozen
laws.

~~~
elihu
I think that the police should protect Americans in these sorts of situations,
but in this case they were just plain outnumbered and outgunned. Our police
are not all-powerful and sometimes they can be taken by surprise and find
themselves at a tactical disadvantage. I expect police to do dangerous things
in the course of their job, but I don't expect them put themselves into a
situation of near-certain death. I don't know what their training is, but I
wouldn't be surprised if one of their guidelines for escalating violence is
don't do if you're probably going to be on the losing end of that exchange.

The thing that bugs me isn't the police response, it's that there seems to
have been no consequences for the Turkish embassy or our relationship with
Turkey. Maybe a row of tanks parked on the lawn would have been needlessly
dramatic, but at least it would have sent a clear message and escalated force
in such a way that Erdogan's security forces would have been at a tactical
disadvantage.

So far it seems the Trump administration's response is that this was just a
normal day (and we're left with the general impression that there may have
been a few fist-bumps and high-fives in private).

------
exabrial
Why no charges? (Diplomatic immunity?)

Also, law abiding US citizens can barely get the government's permission to
exercise their 2nd amendment rights in Washington, how do foreign body guards
manage that?

------
omginternets
I guess it's no longer viable to go to protests unarmed.

Good to know.

~~~
exabrial
A good thought, and in most states, it would be your Constitutional right to
do so. However, carrying a weapon is likely to attract additional attention
and there's a good chance you'd wind up dead. You're going against a foreign
military trained force, and they're probably not used to seeing a normal
citizen exercise their civil liberties in such a way. I think peaceful
assembly is probably the best approach, and leaving immediately if anyone
(protestor or police) incites violence.

~~~
tehlike
I am Turkish by origin, but have been living in USA for 7 years.

I could vouch for the fact that it would make them feel threatened. They are
definitely not aware of civil liberties and constitutional rights. Heck, they
don't even know or understand what freedom of speech is.

~~~
exabrial
Welcome :) we're glad you're here

------
ajmurmann
I hate to be that guy, but what's going on with that website? On my iPhone It
scroll beyond the title. It keeps jumping back to the top immediately.

~~~
gefh
Same on mobile chrome, in mobile or desktop mode. Very frustrating.

------
sjg007
Regardless of the state department, the protestors should sue and the US can
freeze assets here.

~~~
jessaustin
Even if suing the Turkish government is found impractical, they should
definitely sue the thugs who have business interests in USA.

------
CamperBob2
Not sure what it's doing on HN, but this is a really nice piece of journalism,
well worth checking out even if you're not interested in the subject matter.

~~~
Preemo
I figured because it was a fairly in-depth analysis of the footage, it was
worth posting to the HN community. I'm glad you found it interesting.

~~~
jedmeyers
I found the reading and especially watching experience to be sub par on the
iphone. No way to pause/rewind the clips, no complete videos to review, just
carefully prepared "analysis" for digestion in a certain way.

~~~
mschuster91
> I found the reading and especially watching experience to be sub par on the
> iphone.

Don't complain to the NYT, go complain at Apple. It's Apple's fault that in
mid-2017, there is STILL no way for inline videos in ordinary HTML5 web sites.

But, I admit, there's one single huge advantage: iOS devices are not hit with
sometimes dozens of megabytes of traffic due to news sites auto-
loading/playing videos, or worse, ad videos...

