
Keeping Tesla Roadsters Alive Is Serious Work - t23
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a28819221/tesla-roadster-repair-carl-medlock/
======
twblalock
A lot of early adopters were probably worried that Tesla would go out of
business and they wouldn't be able to get parts. Tesla is still in business
and there still aren't parts.

Hopefully enough of the current Tesla models will end up on the road to make
it profitable for aftermarket suppliers to make some parts. So far it doesn't
seem like that is happening at very much scale.

~~~
icelancer
Lots of would-be buyers won't purchase until the supply lines and insane
repair wait times are fixed.

Source: I am one, as are many of my friends in Seattle.

~~~
londons_explore
It's s tricky issue to fix - often parts fail due to a bad design (eg. 1 part
too weak).

Everyone wants to buy that replacement part, leading to a shortage. At the
same time, Tesla doesn't want to increase production of the faulty parts - in
fact, they want to reduce production so they can redirect machines to making
the new, better part. But it takes time to understand what was wrong and to
design and test.

Overall, I think the key to solving it is latency - within days of seeing a
part fail, they need to get the redesign out to the factory, so at least new
cars with the faulty part aren't still being produced.

~~~
navigatesol
> _But it takes time to understand what was wrong and to design and test._

These seem like obvious problems to anyone in manufacturing, especially in the
auto world. The fact that Tesla didn't foresee them is scary.

~~~
bumby
I wonder how much of this is a cultural issue, with Tesla being more aligned
with the tech world where it's more acceptable to "move fast and break things"
and fix them later. Anecdotally I know some people who have a similar culture
fear of the way SpaceX appears to operate

------
jdnenej
This is becoming more and more of a problem as everything becomes more
complex. I remember when I was a child my dad repaired the power switch on the
vacume cleaner by going to the local electrical store and buying the exact
same switch. Now every single device has its own custom part and the switch
isn't just connecting 2 wires, it's contacting a main board telling it the
button has been pressed triggering the power toggle code which will probably
perform a bunch of checks and processes before powering on. If anything goes
wrong you either have to replace half of the device if you can or just bin it
because it would take you a lifetime to work out everything that happens when
you press the power button.

~~~
jandrese
The good news is you can get almost anything on the Internet. I've found so
many weird parts from shady eBay sellers that worked perfectly in the end.

Other times I've had to order a similar part off of Mouser and hack it to make
it fit, with varying levels of success.

~~~
baroffoos
This is less of an option when hardware makers fuse everything in to a single
board so when one thing breaks you need a new main board which costs as much
as the whole device.

I have had a surprising amount of luck with some items though. Managed to
replace the shoulder buttons on my 3ds by finding a replica of the button +
ribbon cable + connector used.

~~~
gnopgnip
What is the alternative, a vacuum that has 3000 individual components now and
they are still not user replaceable?

~~~
Faark
A good start would be to open up more access to plans & documentation to make
it easier for interested people to do so.

Better access to replacement parts is another demand you often hear around the
"right to repair" movement.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Even with just full documentation available, people (hobbyists, repair shops)
could replace original parts with generic alternatives that match the spec
electrically. The result wouldn't be as pretty as the original, but it would
_work_ (and gave some street cred valued by people who prefer reuse and repair
to generating waste).

------
leesalminen
My wife has a 2020 Toyota Corolla. Less than 3 months old and it’s got a bad
crack in the windshield.

Toyota says a replacement is 6 months out and there are 800 on backorder in
North America right now.

So, it’s not just Tesla. Can happen to any manufacturer.

~~~
JohnJamesRambo
Can’t you just go to one of the dozens of windshield replacement businesses in
your area? You drive it there and they plop in a new windshield for very
reasonable rates. They will often even come to you to fix it.

~~~
Infernal
I have wondered about this between my 2008 Honda and my 2019 Honda. The 2008,
I have had the windshield replaced twice, no sweat, once due to a rock from
the road and once due to a hailstone. On the 2019, there is a suite of sensors
behind the rearview mirror that (I presume) handle lane detection and object
avoidance (emergency braking) duties. I don't know what assumptions those
sensors (or the software behind them) might make about the properties of the
glass they're looking through, but I wouldn't blindly have the shop on the
corner replace the 2019 windshield like I would on my 2008.

~~~
leesalminen
Pretty much. Same deal on the Corolla.

Just out of curiosity I checked safelite.com and they don’t even offer a
replace option on this year/make/model. Only repair, and this crack is well
beyond the repair limit.

~~~
redis_mlc
In aviation, we stop-drill the ends of cracks in aluminum to stop propagation
by diffusing the stress point.

If you need to wait 6 months, you might want to investigate doing that.

~~~
fludlight
Drilling specialty tempered glass is not advisable.

------
latchkey
This guy is great, he found a niche full of customers and became the expert. I
wish more startups would do this.

With regards to Tesla, it is always interesting to me to see how as companies
grow, they become more political, less effective and generally suck more. All
the good people, like this guy, get pushed out or leave on their own.

Makes me generally not want to build or work for a large company ever again.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Find a niche. Build a profitable business around it. Stay small. Make your
customers and your staff happy (make a path to shared ownership for them if
that tickles your fancy). Enjoy doing it. You won’t regret it.

More money, more problems (my apologies to Mr B.I.G.)

~~~
jacquesm
> Find a niche. Build a profitable business around it. Stay small. Make your
> customers and your staff happy (make a path to shared ownership for them if
> that tickles your fancy).

Wow. This is exactly what I'm doing!

~~~
toomuchtodo
I wish you much success. I’d love to buy you a coffee or other beverage and
hear all about it.

~~~
jacquesm
Anytime, jacques@modularcompany.com

------
irjustin
I love listening to this. It's all the beauties of a great business. There's a
problem, a loyal group and someone willing to solve and love the problem at
the same time.

It's sad to see that the Roadster community was left behind so quickly. For
better or for worse, Tesla plays cars like the startup game. Pivot, deploy,
traction?, repeat. As terrible as that sounds, I do hope Tesla is here to
stay. Even in its current form, the world is better with Tesla than without.

~~~
jacquesm
It seems that abandoning the userbase of the people that got you there is a
staple ingredient for start-ups beyond a certain size too.

------
alkonaut
A small run exotic car won't be as easy and cheap to service as a mass market
car. But 2500 isn't 25. Lots of manufacturers of exotic cars in a LOT smaller
runs than 2500. And they make sure to procduce the parts required to service
the cars for a very long time if they want to look like a serious car
manufacturer.

------
pfarnsworth
My wife damaged the skirt at the bottom of the car, driving over a bump. It
dented the skirt pretty badly, so we got it replaced.

$10,000 and 4 weeks labor (but waited months to get it fixed), because they
had to disassemble the whole damn car. I was livid at what should have been
maybe a $200 part required practically the entire car to be disassembled. One
front seat and the back seats were both removed as were the entire side panel
of the car.

Until Tesla solves the maintenance and replaceability of parts, I'm never
getting another Tesla again. It's simply bad design. It's like an iPhone where
you can't just replace the battery, you need to disassemble the entire thing
just to get to the battery.

With no commitment to their Roadster customers, it makes me wonder how long
they will be committed to their Model 3 customers in providing parts? Already
the parts market takes months to get parts, how will it be 6 years from now?

~~~
segmondy
This is exactly what put an end to my plan to buy a Tesla. I went nuts like
everyone and most of my friends and coworkers bought one. I held out then I
read about how the repair can take forever and how the parts are so tightly
coupled that you have to almost disassembly the car to make repairs and I
decided to pass. Until they figure this out, I'll probably get a used volt or
bolt whenever I decided to get my next car.

~~~
natch
There are a few clickbait articles out there, but don't believe everything you
hear. Repairs, the very few I've had (two flat tires and one camera issue)
have not been that bad. Flat tires were: mobile service came to where I was
within 20 minutes, had me sign a paper, and put on an identical loaner wheel.
That was that. Took like 2 minutes of my time. Then had to go to the service
center for the swap back, which took around 20 minutes. Camera was a drop off
at the shop and then I ubered to work on Tesla's dime for two days, because
they were out of loaner Teslas at that time. Yeah could have been faster but
it wasn't bad at all.

The horror stories were a catalyst for a lot of changes, I believe... the
reality may be not as bad as you fear.

------
Scoundreller
Basically the Apple philosophy.

On the plus side, it really drives up re-sale values and part-out values when
you don't have the manufacturer undercutting you.

Source: I parted out my old Macbook and ended up with a pretty good
downpayment on my next done. Got new mid-2015 Macbook Air new by parting my
mid-2011 and ~CAD$300 by selling the promo "free" Beats headphones.

~~~
pvg
Tesla threw together of a couple of thousand prototype-ish cars based on an
already-uncommon sports car. Apple makes zillions of devices and supports them
for years. What's the connection here?

~~~
burke
Individual parts are not readily available from either manufacturer.

~~~
pvg
You can't get 'individual parts' for most consumer electronics. They don't
require the sort of maintenance a car does, as this user's story about selling
an 8 year old laptop and buying a 4 year old laptop with the proceeds
illustrates.

~~~
Scoundreller
Apple keeps a much tighter grip on their supply chains than the rest.

If you're willing to search around on Ebay/AliExpress, you usually can get
individual parts: either gray market from a service centre, 2nd shift or
overruns. The big exception's for Apple parts.

Contrast with Sears: Here's 250+ parts available for each fridge they
distribute, shipped to you direct, with manuals:

[https://www.searspartsdirect.com/category/1234589/refrigerat...](https://www.searspartsdirect.com/category/1234589/refrigerator-
parts)

I bought repair parts for my parents' 20 year old garage door opener from
them. PSA: open it up and grease the nylon gears every decade so they don't
turn into a snowmaker.

~~~
pvg
Sure, but that doesn't change the fact most consumer electronics are not user-
serviceable by design and are also designed in a way that most of them don't
require service in their useful lifetime. That's the 'philosophy' at play
here, if we can call it that.

The other thing is making a small-run weird and pricey car and then mostly
ditching it as a supported product. Putting aside any value judgements about
the practice of making and selling products in _either_ of those ways, I still
don't see any 'philosophical' connection to Apple or really, you know, anyone
else not-making bespoke custom products.

~~~
Scoundreller
OP's claim was literally that Tesla's approach to parts hasn't changed since
Day1:

"A lot of early adopters were probably worried that Tesla would go out of
business and they wouldn't be able to get parts. Tesla is still in business
and there still aren't parts."

I guess that could be interpreted as though Tesla would eventually support the
early models, but it's clear that they're not providing parts for any model in
small or large production.

~~~
pvg
Yes, my point is that if you make 2500 nigh-bespoke custom sports cars,
whatever your plans or execution for parts, maintenance, etc are, they can't
possibly have anything to do, philosophically or otherwise, with a
manufacturer who makes non-user-servicable devices statistically nobody
expects to user-service. Apple shipped 2500 iPhones every six minutes last
year.

The comment you quoted says that buyers were concerned about parts from the
get go, presumably as most buyers of nigh-bespoke custom sports cars are and
as most buyers of anything Apple makes aren't.

------
olivermarks
the Roadster is a Lotus Elise with an EV drivetrain installed by Tesla, there
is good parts supply for the original Elise. [https://www.elise-
shop.com/original-lotus-parts-c-17.html](https://www.elise-shop.com/original-
lotus-parts-c-17.html)

The EV conversion made the car a lot heavier and was a pretty complex
conversion [https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeanbaptiste/2018/09/18/elon-
mu...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeanbaptiste/2018/09/18/elon-musk-
converting-lotus-elise-to-build-the-tesla-roadster-was-a-super-dumb-
strategy/#62b5c24b540f)

~~~
greglindahl
That's not very accurate. The "sled" is completely different, not just the
drivetrain.

~~~
olivermarks
The EV conversion made the car a lot heavier and was a pretty complex
conversion [https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeanbaptiste/2018/09/18/elon-
mu...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeanbaptiste/2018/09/18/elon-mu..).

~~~
tyingq
_" Only the windshield, the dashboard (complete with the airbags and the
wheel), the front wishbones, the rear-view mirrors...and the removable soft
top were carried over from the Elise"_

~~~
nguoi
It's a very similar looking car, even down to the T E S L A matching the L O T
U S. I wouldn't be surprised if the 'new' parts had conspicuously similar
mounting points.

~~~
tyingq
It does look similar, but the article says every body panel is different.

~~~
olivermarks
Tesla had to fettle very similar modified components and panels to make it all
work is my understanding

~~~
olivermarks
[https://youtu.be/_w9vB8V8mII](https://youtu.be/_w9vB8V8mII) Great video about
gen 1 roadsters

------
ohnocentral
"There are unique challenges that come with working on these cars. You might
have to rebuild a circuit board one day, and fabricate a new hood the next
day. Actually, if any body parts are damaged, you'll have to fabricate them.
Tesla doesn't sell parts to anyone, so Medlock has taken to fashioning new
panels out of carbon fiber himself. "

Didn't expect to see circuit board rebuilding until ~2023 (15y is my
recollection for MTBF curves starting to climb).

~~~
kube-system
I thought federal law required mass market vehicle manufacturers to make parts
available for 10 years?

Am I mistaken or did Tesla manufacture these under some low-volume exception?

~~~
johnbatch
There is a California law requiring consumer electronics And appliances (not
cars) to have parts for 7 years.

CIVIL CODE SECTION 1792-1795.8

(b) Every manufacturer making an express warranty with respect to an
electronic or appliance product described in subdivision (h), (i), (j), or (k)
of Section 9801 of the Business and Professions Code, with a wholesale price
to the retailer of one hundred dollars ($100) or more, shall make available to
service and repair facilities sufficient service literature and functional
parts to effect the repair of a product for at least seven years after the
date a product model or type was manufactured, regardless of whether the
seven-year period exceeds the warranty period for the product

------
cromka
It's only a matter of time until it becomes profitable enough to salvage that
one orbiting the Earth...

~~~
gpm
It's not orbiting Earth, it's orbiting the sun. I think it's fair to say that
it would be the most ambitious space mission we've ever taken to try and
retrieve it, at least when not adjusting for our increased technical
sophistication since the appolo era...

~~~
mycall
Buck Rogers 2.0

~~~
Finnucane
Salvage One 2.0

------
paulddraper
Wow.

I had a '91 Saturn sedan until 2015. Despite my model being out of production
for decades, and Saturn having closed up shop for years, I could still find
aftermarket auto parts.

How common of a problem is this?

Any other manufactures/models notorious for poor part availability?

~~~
pmorici
Pretty big difference between a model that sells 2,500 total units and one
that sells millions over 2 decades. A better comparison would be to look at
what parts availability is on a limited run sports car.

~~~
mbreese
Not only the limited run nature, but part of this has also got to be the big
supplier network that is available for other cars. How many custom parts are
there on a Tesla Roadster compared to other cars? There are large supplier
networks that can supply many (most? all?) of the internal parts required to
build a complete car (sport or otherwise).

I’ve got to think that the ratio skews heavily to the side of custom for any
of the Tesla. This is where Tesla’s intense vertical integration starts to be
a detriment. I was just reading an article about how the vertical integration
of Tesla was amazing in that it made it possible for custom components to be
used that saved space and weight by performing more than one job [0]. This is
great - until you need to replace that one specialized part and you can’t seem
to find it.

I laughed when I was looking at the cup holder for my new car. It’s a 2018
Audi A3. The rear cup holder is the same junky design that I had to replace
multiple times in an old 2000 Jetta. It’s not a great design, even-though it
saves space. However, because of all of the available suppliers for that part,
I know I’ll be able to find a replacement of this for years. This type of
parts availability is a blessing (you can find one cheap) and a curse (you are
limited in how you can design the car by the parts that are already available,
thus you can only have a barely functional cup holder).

[0] [https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-superbottle-
disrupti...](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-superbottle-disruption-
video/)

~~~
userbinator
_This is great - until you need to replace that one specialized part and you
can’t seem to find it._

...or when that multifunction part fails and renders much of the car
inoperable.

Odd that that article about the Superbottle mentions "increased modularity" as
an advantage, when it clearly decreases modularity to integrate so many
functions into one monolithic part.

------
ak39
Why would Tesla send a C&D to this guy who is helping their brand???

Mind-boggling decision.

------
dmix
I find it crazy when any company doesn't fully adopt the hackers and
aftermarket people. Like the guy said they need to have a certification
process and official pipelines to support 3rd party vendors.

This would significantly increase the UX of owning the car which would offset
any risks of backlash from bad work. A car waiting 1.5yrs for a small
component is a way worse outcome IMO.

------
mcguire
" _Actually, if any body parts are damaged, you 'll have to fabricate them._"

I thought car markers provided parts for, like, 30 years.

~~~
kllrnohj
Mass-market cars tend to yes. The economics work out for them to do that,
along with trying to get those repeat customers. The low-volume exotics not as
much. They didn't make extra parts when the factory was doing the initial
batch, and they sure aren't going to go spin it up for the odd one-off.

------
audiometry
Wonder if these are good collectible-candidates? Though I guess maintaining
the battery for 25 years would be an absolute nightmare. Do these things,
used, trade at a premium or discount to their original price?

------
droithomme
That they won't service them or supply parts shows the future for all Tesla
owners.

We need legislative reform that requires any companies selling products in US
jurisdiction put enough parts and cash in escrow to guarantee for a reasonable
time period the ability to service anything that costs more than $500.

~~~
wmf
It's more like the present; every part they manufacture goes into a new Tesla
while owners wait weeks for replacement parts.

~~~
jacques_chester
This is the key: Tesla's goal is increasing new-car production. Diverting
intermediate assemblies into spare parts inventories directly competes with
that goal. If Tesla had spare manufacturing capacity this wouldn't be as
pressing. As they bring more online it would presumably ease, though with lag
while the backlog of demand is drained.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
It’s unknown if Telsa has spare parts capacity.

What is know is that distributing parts for warranty repairs is a cost to the
company.

It seems their plan is to let warranty claims languish until at least the next
financial period.

------
RickJWagner
I've wanted one since "Nash Bridges". Cool car.

