
Shimano wants to make your bike as smart as your car - gh0zt
https://www.outsideonline.com/2252181/wired-bike
======
rhn_mk1
I'm not sure who's seriously interested in most of these features, fun factor
nonwithstanding. One of bicycles' strengths is simplicity of critical
elements, notably the gear switching. How do they make sure that the
electronic system doesn't die on the rider when the battery goes flat? How do
they deal with increasing slack in the lines?

Who really benefits from turn signals? Unless they are mounted on special
stalks, it's going to be difficult to understand them anyway.

Other ideas are somewhat useful, like the car detector, or adjustable lights -
I already thought about relating headlight power to speed or ambient light in
2011 (shameless plug: when I started working on Jazda -
[https://rhn.github.io/jazda](https://rhn.github.io/jazda) ). But the power
benefits of that may still balance out with the additional electronics needed.

~~~
krhae
Brake lights would be a great addition, however. During fast stops, especially
while commuting, it's nearly impossible to signal.

~~~
jdavis703
In Copenhagen people raise their hand to indicate a stop. I wish we'd adopt
this in the U.S.

~~~
ssambros
Do people have three hands in Copenhagen, because last time I checked my bike
had two handbrakes, and I have to use both of them to stop safely?

~~~
some-guy
Not a professional bike mechanic (I build bikes as a hobby) but in general
your front brake should be set up to be powerful enough on its own. This
requires clean rims, and clean, non-worn, non-hardened brake pads.

~~~
ScottBurson
But the front brake is normally controlled by the left brake lever, and
signals are supposed to be given with the left hand. I've seen it argued that
since most people are right-handed, and the front brake does most of the work
and therefore deserves the most careful modulation, the usual practice is
backwards: the right level should be for the front brake. I guess this is
another reason. It makes sense to me, I guess, but not so much that I've
actually bothered to swap the cables on my bike :-)

Anyway, in the wet it isn't always safe to use only the front brake.

~~~
_Wintermute
In the UK the front brake is on the right.

------
jacquesm
Anything you strap to a bike has to be reliable. If there is one thing you can
say about mechanical systems it is that we know how to design them so they
last the lifetime of a bike (wear parts excluded), anything electrical or
electromechanical will have a shorter life than the equivalent that uses only
mechanical parts. Just look at your average bicycle light set, even after I
don't know how long we _still_ can't make a set that lasts more than a couple
of years.

The key to mechanical longevity is maintenance, a bit of oil and a bit of care
and this stuff will last a lifetime. How many electronics bits and pieces do
you know or do you have that have lasted > 20 years? > 30 years?

Case in point a friend has a Shimano bike with electric shifters. Super nice
bike, but super fragile. One trainride and a very thin and fragile cable got
lodged in the gears.

Several long hours of work later I have it working again (this only happened
last week), oh, and never mind the $45 crappy little cable with custom plugs
which gets plugged into an in-frame patch panel that is just about impossible
to get to. I don't see any advantage over my mechanical stuff, in fact I see a
significant disadvantage. Electronics and bicycles don't mix well unless you
are prepared to make things bullet proof and that will price them right out of
the market. So I don't see this as a viable path, a novelty, something on very
high end bikes but not something that will stand the test of time.

~~~
stbtrax
Electronics, if weatherproofed properly, will last a very long time. They
don't have any wear and tear like mechanical parts so I'm not sure what would
degrade other than the battery or misc connectors.

~~~
brians
Capacitor electrolytics.

Air bubbles in silicon, thermal expansion, and a zillion day night cycles.

Humidity and dust enter, contributing to occasional momentary shorts.

Oxidation anywhere you have electromechanical connections.

Magnetic stresses on any coil, any rectifier.

~~~
kazinator
Transistor aging:
[https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/processors/transist...](https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/processors/transistor-
aging)

(Not likely to affect anything you'd mount on a bicycle, over any span of time
relevant to a bicycle.)

------
sumitgt
Unlike others on this thread, I love where this is headed. I'd love to have a
really smart bike.

However, once I have that much tech on a bike, it would be impossible to park
it anywhere without the risk of being stolen.

~~~
stevenwoo
It's already impossible to park a non department store bike of any value
anywhere in an urban area of the United States without the risk of it getting
stolen. It's probably one of the factors in why some people might not commute
for errands even if everything else was favorable - a bike decent enough to
warrant a ride is a target for thieves. The bike thief community in San
Francisco/Oakland/Santa Cruz has been thriving since all the locals I know
here have been kids in the 80's (when Lemond revived the upscale bike industry
in the USA.)

~~~
soared
This is plainly not true. In 99% of America (read: not cali, nyc, etc) if you
lock your bike up it won't get stolen.

~~~
theparanoid
I'm in a suburb and had the seat stolen off a department store bike.

~~~
stevenwoo
I have some friends in San Diego and they had department store bikes not
visible from the street in a fenced in carport and they were stolen so now
they lock their replacement bikes up and painted them to look like junk.

------
blang
The grumpy old man in me likes my bike to be as mechanical as possible, I
don't want to remember to charge my shifters, power meter, gps, etc. Maybe
that's why I still ride a 1989 Trek 1200 with down tube shifters and biopace
chain rings.

~~~
rhinoceraptor
Even having gears at all can be a bit annoying, with the newer groupsets
having a million gears in the cassette and proprietary chains. I really love
my fixed gear.

~~~
mikestew
Your fixie still has that greasy, dirty chain to deal with. I'm sticking with
my 1886 Columbia Standard high wheeler. Two pedals, two wheels, and a place to
sit. That's all you need.

(To be read for comedic purposes only. I don't actually ride that one to
work.)

------
tonymet
The bike is the most elegant mechanical systems in history, elevating humans
from earth's least efficient creatures to it's most efficient.

Electronic shifting and other boondoggles completely undermine the
reliability, elegance and simplicity of bikes.

I've fixed my bike while on the side of a mountain a hundred miles from home
and ridden home.

What happens when my derailleur firmware crashes?

~~~
gnarcoregrizz
Beyond singlespeeds, I don't think bikes are that reliable or elegant, at
least for 2017. The drivetrain is especially bad, I'm open to any proposed
improvements there (gearboxes! i'm similarly meh on electric shifting, but it
can solve some real problems). There are so many issues - exposed mechanical
parts which collect dirt, bad/sticky cable housing, cable stretch, chain
stretch, gear wear, floppy derailleur which causes the chain to come off and
chain slap which can damage your frame. As for reliability, drivetrains last
only 5k miles or so depending on conditions. Chains need re-lube every 5th
ride or so. As for design outside of the drivetrain, derailleurs put the
majority of the weight on the rear wheel which isn't ideal for suspension or
center of gravity. They are also easily broken because of their location

I'm excited for
[https://pinion.eu/en/gearboxes/](https://pinion.eu/en/gearboxes/). It is
designed to last a long time and not need maintenance (we'll see about
that...)

~~~
Overtonwindow
Oh goodness, have you ridden a full carbon dura ace racing bike? I've had one
for 13 years and it's still as reliable, and elegant as the day I got it. No
electronics. The bicycle equivalent of a super car.

------
jeffdavis
Bicycles are one of the few remaining non-trivial, non-electric machines that
ordinary people use.

I'd prefer to leave them alone.

Seriously, I have a hard time thinking of many machines that fit that
description.

~~~
cag_ii
We can totally have both "old" bikes and new ones.

~~~
flukus
Until governments start deciding that these are mandatory safety features.

------
mi100hael
Lots of negativity in here. Most bikes with DuraAce components already aren't
the sort of thing you'd leave out on a city street unattended.

One cool thing that stood out to me was that these monitors will transmit data
over ANT+ or Bluetooth. As someone who already tracks all my workouts w/ a
Garmin watch, I welcome the ability to track more metrics like power output.
Gives you a good way to objectively track your progress over time when
training for events and can help you gauge the impact of sleep, alcohol, etc
on your performance.

~~~
m0llusk
Change hating old men yelling at clouds can be annoying but are a sign of
progress.

------
oftenbanned
I would like to see American magazines taking a more critical look at these
lights. Like virtually all bike front lights sold in the USA, the Garmin UT800
has a circular beam, making it pretty much useless for anything. Proper bike
lights have asymmetric projection beams that put the light on the road, not up
into the sky. Unfortunately an American bicyclists who wants one of those
lights is pretty much obligated to import one from Germany, where bicycle
lighting is a matter of law. It seems really weird that these very bright,
very expensive flashlights are the only thing available in US bike shops.

~~~
tonymet
what brands would you recommend? I've been looking for exactly what you're
talking about.

~~~
oftenbanned
I have a few Busch & Mueller lights I like. To my knowledge only Peter White
Cycles sells them in US.

------
kafkaesq
My (mid-previous-century, tech-free and entirely disconnected) bike is
_already_ way "smarter" than any modern "device". Precisely because its
overall (non-)complexity is an _exact_ fit for the role it's designed to
perform. And, while _long_ out of production, any reasonably competent bike
mechanic on the planet can make expert repairs to, just from a quick visual
inspection (and a catalog or two to order compatible parts from).

------
chrismorgan
The Rearview Radar exists because of how terrible seeing behind you is on a
bicycle. I ride a recumbent tricycle, and I simply have a mirror on the side
which I can easily keep an eye on; due to my sitting position I conveniently
behold the road before and behind me, unlike a road bike where it’s constant
effort to do the same.

I really wish recumbent tricycles were more popular. The story of the
exclusion of recumbents from races is rather sad.

~~~
photojosh
Mainly because of bike snobbery: mirrors are seen as for dummies. [0]

I have a rearview mirror on my road/commuter bike that replaced the plug on
the bar end and it works a treat.

[0] [http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/#66](http://www.velominati.com/the-
rules/#66)

~~~
chrismorgan
I find that mirrors don’t work particularly well on bikes (I had one years ago
but gave up on it), but the implementation works superbly on a trike, because
the vehicle is wider, the rider’s position more conducive to using a mirror
(not constantly craning your neck) and there’s actually a good place to mount
it.

------
some-guy
Bicycle-building has replaced my obsession with building PCs. Unlike PCs, bike
performance doesn't follow Moore's Law -- bikes make forty years ago, if kept
in decent condition, are still going to be better bikes than a new bike
purchased at Walmart or Target.

I'm old-fashioned, but I generally want able-bodied folks to get on the saddle
if they can, whether it's an old clunker or a new e-bike. Shimano makes
amazing electronic components, but what about the cheap competitors that start
flooding the market with integrated parts that break? Will bikes be
salvageable and maintainable beyond that point? Are we going to get into a
planned obsolescence situation here?

------
contingencies
I live in Shenzhen. We moved from Yunnan about six months ago. Yunnan is one
of the best places for cycle touring on earth: huge mountains, beautiful
forests, great roads, little traffic, camping available but not required,
plenty of people who can help you resolve mechanical issues for change. My
mountain bike - XTR Shimano components, no lights or electronics at all - is
literally in a shipping box, and the comments on this article have inspired me
to re-assemble it this weekend.

On another note I'm planning to take a cycle touring trip through Mizoram in
far eastern India over Chinese New Year, probably for around three weeks.
Anyone crazy enough to want to join? :)

------
CalChris
Dunno if Shimano is ever going to live down BioPace. At the same time I’m glad
clever people kept at it.

[https://absoluteblack.cc/oval-104bcd-
chainring.html](https://absoluteblack.cc/oval-104bcd-chainring.html)

~~~
cag_ii
This is the second comment in this thread criticizing the biopace, what
exactly was the problem with it? It seems to me that the oval chainring is
seeing a resurgence lately (in the MTB community at least).

~~~
analog31
A couple bikes in my family's fleet have Biopace rings, both having been made
around the same time period. What I recall at the time was that they were
greeted by a collective yawn because they weren't eccentric enough to have
much of an effect.

I just measured a 48T Biopace ring that was in my spare parts bin, and the
ratio of major to minor diameter is about 3 percent.

The only annoyance I can think of is that you can't use those rings with a
single-speed or gearhub without a chain tensioner.

If they're wrecking your knees, don't push such long gears. Or, rotate the
ring by 72 degrees on the crank to pretty much negate the effect.

------
buttsu
I love the idea of not having to replace my shifting cables/ adjusting them
every few months however, the price is a huge deal for me. I ride my bike to
work every day and while i did shell out 200$ for a new 105 crankset, I don't
want to have to pay too much more than that for lights/shifting. Maybe a di2
version of the lower market shimano group sets would make that more feasible
as a cyclist who doesn't mind occasional maintenance

------
659087
I'd rather have my car become as "dumb" as my bike.

------
mr_tristan
Automatic lights would be amazing in ridesharing bike systems, like Nike's
Biketown that we have here in PDX:
[https://www.biketownpdx.com/](https://www.biketownpdx.com/)

I see these fancy "smart" features very useful for making biking convenient
and simple for very casual biking.

Hard core bikers already are happy for the most part, and probably only care
about shaving off marginal amounts of weight.

~~~
agumonkey
What are Automatic Lights ?

~~~
mr_tristan
Um, the article mentions lights several times, and includes a link to these:

[https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/550821#overview](https://buy.garmin.com/en-
US/US/p/550821#overview)

They are lights that automatically turn on when needed. Thus, people don't
need to bring a lights for the bike they rent, in case it gets dark, etc.
Right now, the Biketown bikes don't include any lights on them, so you
basically either bring your own or just don't ride them in the evening.

There are of course other features, like automatic brightness adjustment etc.
They can be like daytime running lights for your car.

~~~
agumonkey
oh low light triggered, I see

------
buro9
None of this is particularly new, but it is being refined.

The R9170 Dura-Ace hydraulic system isn't even complete yet, the power meter
crankset is only starting to materialise.

Yet it does represent the 2nd proper generation of electronic shifting and
hydraulic braking on road bikes.

None of what is in the article is new, but it is being polished and brought
together better. One of the things that I have enjoyed is that with a Wahoo
bike computer (or the forthcoming Hammerhead Android based computer), it's now
possible to grab your bike... go out and put in a long ride, and without any
hassle or prep for your power, heart, cadence, and speed to all be recorded,
accurately, auto-uploaded to Strava on your return, and during the ride the
buttons on the Shimano R9170 hood can control the screen on the GPS, and the
electronic shifting means tired hands on seriously long rides are far less of
a problem.

This is now a reality, it's there. That's my daily steed.

That style of bike is also now the default choice of the endurance rider. They
learned a few years ago of the benefits of all-weather braking that doesn't
fade, electronic shifting to spare the hand.

The fear of flat batteries within Di2 is just not there. If you top up every
few months... you'll be fine. You'd need to be doing events like the TransAm
or Transcontinental and training on the bike and failing to charge... to even
stand a chance at experiencing a flat battery.

Re: the accident alert in the Garmin, I tried a See Sense rear lamp that has
this feature and it's pointless. Nothing more than a headline grabber. Far
better on lighting just to buy something with a solid bright red light that
operates on bog standard AAA batteries and is cheap, my favourite being the
GBP 15 Moon Pulsar. For front light I favour Lumicycle, but for rear give me
super reliable and easy to find batteries for.

This stuff is all very nice. It's currently top dollar for the Dura-Ace end of
the range, but is available in cheaper groupsets, and is also starting to
emerge with the Alfine internal hub gear systems. Meaning: It is moving down
the range and becoming common.

Cycles will also nearly all go power-assist. They too are maturing at a great
rate, and even avid cyclists like myself who have ridden one is now tempted.

Cycles will go electric in all ways. The future is here.

If you're interested, other recent changes in cycling:

\+ Frames geometries are changing, the emergence of 3d printing is making
bottom bracket and dropout clusters lighter, stronger and more capable

\+ Tyres are fatter and lower pressure [https://www.schwalbe.com/gb/road-
reader/schwalbe-g-one-allro...](https://www.schwalbe.com/gb/road-
reader/schwalbe-g-one-allround.html)

\+ Tyres are becoming tubeless, like car tyres, with puncture filling gloop to
handle everything short of a side-wall failure (but then you can just insert a
tube to get you home) [https://roadcyclinguk.com/gear/buyers-guide-go-
tubeless.html...](https://roadcyclinguk.com/gear/buyers-guide-go-
tubeless.html#eMCvFPxI2fIo4Cup.97)

\+ Wheels are getting wider whilst still being aero, and accommodating aero
with fatter tyres, helped by disc brakes (allows rims, forks and frames to
evolve). Check out Enve SES AR 4.5 wheels
[https://enve.com/products/ses-4-5-ar/](https://enve.com/products/ses-4-5-ar/)

\+ Disc brakes are changing frames so that axles are thru-frame for quick and
easy wheel changes and consistent brake alignment
[https://cyclingtips.com/2015/10/road-bikes-are-headed-
toward...](https://cyclingtips.com/2015/10/road-bikes-are-headed-towards-
through-axels-but-why/)

\+ Gravel bikes are the new road bikes, striking a balance between cyclocross
and road they are adventure or "super versatile" bikes that are fast and have
the potential to take a gravel trail occasionally
[http://road.cc/content/buyers-
guide/217893-18-best-2017-grav...](http://road.cc/content/buyers-
guide/217893-18-best-2017-gravel-adventure-bikes-%E2%80%94-super-versatile-
bikes-are-home)

\+ Bike bags are moving from panniers to under saddle and on the bar, check
out Apidura for examples of this. Bike-packing is very on-trend right now
[https://www.apidura.com/](https://www.apidura.com/)

\+ Riding is changing from sportif to weekend and overnight, and clothing is
changing too into lightweight and adaptive wear, Rapha Brevet range is an
example of this, especially their insulated gilet and jacket
[http://www.rapha.cc/gb/en/shop/brevet/category/brevet](http://www.rapha.cc/gb/en/shop/brevet/category/brevet)

\+ Most anticipated new product is probably the Hammerhead computer. Garmin is
tolerated and not loved, Wahoo is pretty good but not yet feature complete
[https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/03/wahoo-elemnt-gps-bike-
co...](https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/03/wahoo-elemnt-gps-bike-computer-in-
depth-review.html) , but the Hammerhead could be excellent and they have the
potential to move into Android Wear with some actually excellent apps too
[https://www.hammerhead.io/](https://www.hammerhead.io/)

There is nothing in cycling not currently undergoing rapid change. This is an
industry overhauling itself to grow it's market by having vehicles and
equipment to allow human-assisted transport to be easy, go faster, go farther,
be more comfortable, more practical, more lifestyle. This stuff is currently
top-end, but it's already moving down and becoming more accessible.

------
zwieback
The tech is cool and all but I'll stick with my DuraAce 7400 with down-tube
shifters.

I do want the rear radar!!

------
Overtonwindow
Technology is cool and all, and the Shimano setup is drool worthy. But... I
really worry that when it comes to racing, we're creeping away from the
manual, purely mechanical tradition of cycling. Safety I can understand, but
adding electricity and computers I just can't get used to. Perhaps I'm a young
Luddite.

------
Animats
If a bike needs battery replacement, you're doing it wrong.

------
knodi123
no, they want to make my bike as smart as someone who bought a lot nicer car
than me. it's _already_ easier to change gears on my bike than my car.

------
OJFord
Why?

------
linsomniac
I have a Tesla (2016 Model S, AP2), and let me just say: Can we set the bar a
little higher? :-)

------
dominotw
>this is the future of bikes, where computer, components, and lights work as
one to improve the ride.

oh god. no.

~~~
hyperbovine
>this is the future of bikes, where computer, components, and lights work work
in harmony with the thief to steal your bike as efficiently as possible

------
verytrivial
"It's reminiscent of a modern car, where you can control all the critical
vehicle functions from a few buttons on the steering wheel."

So, one then? The horn?

"Critical" clearly means something different to someone tricking-out a push
bike with thousands of dollars of marginally useful kit.

~~~
megy
Do you not have a modern car, with their many buttons on the steering wheel?

~~~
verytrivial
I do. It has volume bottoms, call answering buttons and others, but exactly
ONE essential button, the damn horn which is right in the middle taking up the
full width of the wheel center.

I don't know why this observation seems controversial.

