
European Parliament TTIP vote postponed ‘because of huge public pressure’ - walterbell
http://www.eureporter.co/frontpage/2015/06/10/european-parliament-ttip-vote-cancelled-because-of-huge-public-pressure-say-green-meps/
======
Nursie
TTIP and CETA need to go away. The trade aspect isn't terrible. Everything
else is.

Treaties shouldn't be negotiated in private and withheld from scrutiny. Not
anywhere claiming to be democratic.

ISDS is just wrong. TTIP opens the way for companies to use a supranational,
binding court of arbitration to sue any country that impacts future profits.
If a country, for instance, changed environmental protections, worker rights,
food safety standards, whatever, they can be sued for large sums.

It's anti democratic and it hands sovereignty over to business interests. It's
being pushed by bureaucrats and lobbyists who have tried their damnedest to
keep it out of the light. To the extent that even MEPs have had to sign an NDA
before being allowed to set eyes on a draft (we know this because one or two
broke the NDAs)

[https://stop-ttip.org](https://stop-ttip.org)

~~~
pathy
You are aware that ISDS already exist and have been a part of trade deals for
at least 20 years?

TTIP may extend these rights, and it certainly should be negotiated in such a
secretive way, but the ISDS provisions are nothing particularly new. ISDS
exist because national courts are not always unbiased, and may unduly favour
the host nation.

~~~
lordfoom
I live in South Africa, which is currently renegotiating or terminating all
such treaties because we've discovered first hand that it allows corporations
to evade or set government policy.

Just because it isn't new doesn't mean we should shrug and accept it.

------
walterbell
Booklet on TTIP and Digital Rights, [https://edri.org/ttip-and-digital-rights-
the-booklet/](https://edri.org/ttip-and-digital-rights-the-booklet/)

From [http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/10/obscure-
lega...](http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/10/obscure-legal-system-
lets-corportations-sue-states-ttip-icsid)

 _" Brazil has never signed up to this system – it has not entered into a
single treaty with these investor-state dispute provisions – and yet it has
had no trouble attracting foreign investment."_

~~~
jmedwards
[http://www.tradingeconomics.com/embed/?s=brazilfordirinv&d1=...](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/embed/?s=brazilfordirinv&d1=20000101&d2=20151231&url2=/india/foreign-
direct-investment&title=false&h=300&w=600&ref=/brazil/foreign-direct-
investment)

[http://www.tradingeconomics.com/embed/?s=brazilfordirinv&d1=...](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/embed/?s=brazilfordirinv&d1=20000101&d2=20151231&url2=/south-
africa/foreign-direct-investment&title=false&h=300&w=600&ref=/brazil/foreign-
direct-investment)

~~~
pjc50
Decontextualised graphs are not causation!

------
paulsutter
Secret treaties, secret laws, and secret courts making secret decisions all
must be stopped. Doesn't matter if it's about trade or surveillance.

~~~
ajmurmann
iI would actually argue that everyone involved in this should be prosecuted
for trying to overthrow our democratic system.

------
eadz
I thought the investor/state dispute settlement idea was prone to abuse, then
I read this:

"secret courts"

Secret Courts? Seriously! We have (mostly) open courts today because we have
learned something in the past few thousand years. Let's not go back to the
dark ages. This agreement needs to fail!

~~~
DamnYuppie
The funny thing to me is that Corporations are trying to enact a form for
Corporate Feudalism. They control all the resources, and we the humble workers
and consumers are bound to them.

------
cyphunk
Even if you are pro-trade the economics don't make sense. The health cost for
dropping EU legislation to ban 31 specific pesticides would be projected to
cost more than all the gains TTIP would provide (€160 vs €140 over 12y):

[http://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/2015/05/eu-dropped-
plan...](http://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/2015/05/eu-dropped-plans-for-
safer-pesticides-because-of-ttip-and-pressure-from-us/)

~~~
tim333
Not a fan of TTIP but Ars got that wrong. The estimated costs are mostly from
"endocrine disruptors found in food containers, plastics, furniture, toys,
carpeting and cosmetics"

[http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/06/health-
co...](http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/06/health-costs-
hormone-disrupting-chemicals-150bn-a-year-europe-says-study)

~~~
cyphunk
Where was the Ars error? Its seems to say the same as The Guardian article you
linked to, or did I miss something?

------
sschueller
Not cancelled but postponed.

Seems to me they are just waiting until the public forgets about it.

~~~
KJasper
They will discuss it and approve it while there is some major event going
down. Let's say a complete meltdown of Greece, a natural disaster, more war in
the middle east...

~~~
briandear
Maybe a trade agreement would prevent a Greek meltdown by freeing trade
opportunities for Greece. The problem in Greece has been too much left wing
and not enough economic liberalism.

~~~
pdkl95
The problem in Greece[1] is a combination of the EU centralizing money but not
monetary policy, and the only regulatory tools available being controlled by
inflation-phobic germans and the class-specific "put option" they imposed on
Greece (et al) with the regressive "austerity" policies.

[1] I recommend this explanation by (Brown University prof. econ.) Mark Blyth:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6vV8_uQmxs#t=674](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6vV8_uQmxs#t=674)

~~~
allendoerfer
You realize, that we inflation-phobic Germans have only one vote in the ECB
and that the ECB is in fact doing everything to get some inflation going. Have
you noticed, that the Euro nearly reached the Dollar, while the Fed itself was
printing money like crazy?

I realize the horrible situation the Greek people are in, but you cannot just
say, that a bit more inflation and a bit less austerity would have solved the
thing. Greece had neither an economy that exported anything nor a working
administration. Greece could have gotten plenty of EU investment money, they
just did not file the papers. How can you expect money invested there to not
mysteriously get lost on the way?

I think the idea to couple payment tranches with accomplished reforms was
good, but some of the measurements clearly went to far. The core problem is,
that we wanted to have them in the EU badly when everything was great, so we
were okay with them cheating on the requirements.

I would argue that East-Germany had more substance 1990 than Greece has today.
There was a massive investment program and still today East-Germany is not at
the level West-Germany is. West-German states are heavily criticizing the
systems to support the east. The average German simply does not want to send
money to lazy Berliners (which is a German state receiving money from the
others and builds airports with it, you might have heard of).

Unfortunately we cannot do the same with Greece, because the required
solidarity is just not there yet - and Germany is not really the problem here:
There are countries in the EU with lower standards of living that would never
accept this. So we kind of have to operate on the living patient here. Get
some reforms, invest some money, repeat. Otherwise the emerging far-right
parties will take over.

~~~
toyg
_> There are countries in the EU with lower standards of living that would
never accept this_

Hiding behind smaller countries is new, but I can understand the German public
is running out of excuses to justify their egoism.

Thing is, all this could be solved tomorrow by introducing collective
eurobonds (or similar debt-sharing facilities) and making the BCE a real
central bank. But that would level the playing field a bit too much for German
tastes.

 _> How can you expect money invested there to not mysteriously get lost on
the way?_

Their corrupt political class has been swept away. If you don't extend some
credit to new recruits who had no responsibility whatsoever in the disaster,
when will you ever do it?

 _> Unfortunately we cannot do the same with Greece, because the required
solidarity is just not there yet_

Where there is a will, there is a way. A certain fraulein said so herself a
few days ago. If you want to do it, you do it. If you don't do it, it's
because you don't want to, simple as.

 _> Otherwise the emerging far-right parties will take over._

Newsflash: the german chancellor (a law graduate) is a far-right dude. Jeroen
Dijsselbloem (agricultural policy "expert") is well to the right of his Dutch
Labour Party, and in fact it's costing them activists.

European economic policy is dominated by right-wing ideas right now. Are you
saying we should expect even worse, coming from the North? It wouldn't be the
first time.

~~~
allendoerfer
Eurobonds would indeed solve this for small countries, but would effectively
lower the overall standard in the long term. They introduce the free rider
problem. Why would you ever fix your financial situation if you remove any
incentive to do so? I would love to see Eurobonds, right after we introduced a
unified tax system. Good luck getting the UK to do that. If we do not do this,
we will make the same mistakes again we did as we gave Greece the same
currency as the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany.

So lets start with easier tasks and save money by creating a single European
military or introduce single European welfare systems, which would lessen the
pain, too. These tasks are already hard enough. If you lose the people on this
we can forget about it all for a long time.

I think your intentions are good, but your arguments are weak and you are just
raging. I would love to see a unified Europe with a unified standard of
living, but you cannot simply introduce things. Think about the consequences.

> Their corrupt political class has been swept away.

And now we have a coalition of far-right and far-left wannabe rockstars. The
whole administration is still the same, corrupt and to a large extend unable
to do its job. I give them that they are trying to poker for their country,
but I fear the point the others are fed up with this bullshit, simply ignore
them and let them default. The media is more and more telling the story that a
so called Grexit would not be that dangerous anymore.

> Newsflash: the german chancellor (a law graduate) is a far-right dude.

The German chancellor is a physics graduate and her party (CDU) moved to the
left in the last years. There are effectively 3 social-democratic, center-left
parties in Germany right now: The Greens, SPD and CDU. Other than thinking a
bit more backwards than the other two, it is all about introducing welfare
programs as presents for being elected.

That is why she has been ruling for so long. She effectively crushed the SPD
with this strategy: They introduced hard reforms ten years ago and she moved
to the left. No there is not enough room between the CDU and the Lefts for the
SPD. She simply ignores the AFD to the right of her as they do their best to
destroy themselves already and were never an "alternative" \- as their name
suggests - for most Germans.

~~~
toyg
_> Eurobonds would indeed solve this for small countries, but would
effectively lower the overall standard in the long term._

It's unrealistic to think the whole of Europe will ever have the exact same
economic standard as Germany. This doesn't happen even in the US, which have
been a proper federal union for more than a century now. If we want a real
union, we will have to harmonize things in both directions -- and yes, that
means the Germans will have to endure in similar ways as they did when they
annexed the DDR. The FED makes economic policy choices to suit the whole
federation, not just California or New York.

If this does not suit the German people, then maybe we should just give up the
federal project altogether.

 _> So lets start with easier tasks and save money by creating a single
European military or introduce single European welfare systems_

The military is already highly integrated through NATO, to the point that the
UK for months relied on French capabilities for their naval aircraft carriers,
while their own were being repaired or manufactured. If you mean integrating
foreign policy, that's much harder than harmonizing a bunch of financial
arrangements, because it's the sort of thing the man on the street will have
an opinion about: ask a taxi driver what an eurobond is, and he'll just blank
out. Same for welfare. Besides, you cannot integrate welfare without common
money pools, because welfare is by definition _subsidiary_ : the rich pays for
the poor. So if you want an integrated welfare, you need integrated finances,
and integrated finances require integrated debt, i.e. eurobonds.

Integrated finance and debt is the next big step for the monetary union, there
is no way around it. Most people did not realize this had not been done when
the Euro was introduced, and now we're seeing the problems that come from this
approach. I like to think that the Maastricht "forefathers" actually expected
this to happen and let it be, like Hari Seldon would have done, in the
assumption that European elites would inevitably get around the inevitability
of certain hard choices once faced with them. It's a more optimist view than
thinking they were just idiots.

 _> Good luck getting the UK to do that._

The UK does not belong in a federal EU. They should be kept in a friendly
economic zone, but they should be excluded from any decision-taking body, like
it should happen for any country not adopting the Euro. Otherwise the
fedealist project will forever remain a dream. This I've been saying for 20
years, btw. There is no point trying to keep them in -- England is the
unofficial 51st State and will remain so for the foreseeable future. I say
that as an European UK resident, so against my best interests, but it's the
hard truth. If excluding England means losing the more "europeist" NI,
Scotland and EIRE, so be it.

 _> And now we have a coalition of far-right and far-left wannabe rockstars._

Tony Blair _really_ was a wannabe rockstar, and he ended up being the most
skillful politician of his generation in the UK, and one of the most
influential across the whole of Europe. So let's leave the weak ad-hominem to
tabloids please. Besides, there is more economic policy intelligence in one of
Varoufakis' fingernails than in you and me combined. You have to face the fact
that these guys are actually _good_ : they took a smalltime leftist operation
and got them in government. They managed to coopt some of their worst enemies
on the right and basically took them out of the game. They tried to build a
coalition across countries with similar interests, and the failure there is
just due to political weakness on the other side (Hollande is hapless, Renzi
has no electoral mandate, and Spain is in the process of changing government),
although there is some evidence that they might be coming around the idea of
putting pressure on Merkel. If you don't help them now to establish a modern
bureaucracy and statehood, you'll condemn Greece back to colony status, with
periodic _coup d 'ètat_ and all that. Which would be very dangerous,
considering the Russian neoimperialistic approach and eternal instability in
the Balkans. But if you make them heroes to their people, making them appear
as the saviours of national pride, they will have the political capital to
make bolder choices in any area.

 _> The German chancellor is a physics graduate_

Apologies, I got tripped up by UK exceptionalism: I referred to the chancellor
in UK terms, i.e. the minister of Finance, Schauble, who is in fact a law
graduate and much to the right of Merkel. And if the Merkel coalition is the
most social-democratic effort Germany can produce, Europe will soon be a thing
of the past.

~~~
allendoerfer
First of all, minor nitpicking, we did not annex the DDR. The DDR has been
stolen from us and its people managed to get rid of their oppressors on their
own.

> If this does not suit the German people, then maybe we should just give up
> the federal project altogether.

Sorry, but that is just fatalistic. Europe will never be the US and does not
need to. Germany itself is a federal project with differences among the
states. Take the UK, Spain or Belgium for even harsher examples. With these
differences even within the European states, you cannot expect them to give
away control over economic and fiscal policies without any gain of influence.
That is not how democracy works. If my money is spent, I want the right to
vote on how it is spent.

I also want the UK in. For hundreds of years Europe’s situation was decided by
how well its great powers got along with each other. I think the UK is
essential for the definition of Europe. Besides that: The UK has virtually no
industry left and London is the biggest financial market in Europe. As someone
living in Frankfurt I am okay with that. But do you really think the UK does
not know, that Germany will not let them leave without taking London away? I
recently talked to a German MEP, who said this in nicer terms. I think "Better
together" will be nothing compared to the bank sponsored campaign that will be
started once the UK actually tries to leave.

> Besides, you cannot integrate welfare without common money pools

That is true, but there are common money pools. Just start to move parts of
the welfare systems up one level to the EU and increase their funding.

> Tony Blair really was a wannabe rockstar, and he ended up being the most
> skillful politician of his generation in the UK, and one of the most
> influential across the whole of Europe.

You might take a look at the disaster that is currently happening in the
middle-east, that he and his buddy Bush caused so _skillfully_.

> You have to face the fact that these guys are actually good: they took a
> smalltime leftist operation and got them in government. They managed to
> coopt some of their worst enemies on the right and basically took them out
> of the game. They tried to build a coalition across countries with similar
> interests, and the failure there is just due to political weakness on the
> other side […] But if you make them heroes to their people, making them
> appear as the saviours of national pride, they will have the political
> capital to make bolder choices in any area.

You might call the ability to increase once power skillful governing, I think
we all learned that we are better of with democratic majorities behind the
decision itself instead of the benevolent leader who makes them.

> […] Schauble, who is in fact a law graduate and much to the right of Merkel.

I do not like him either, but because of his former job as Secretary of the
Interior [0]. Finally not spending more than you have is an achievement he
will be remembered for, even if he was in a unique situation to do it easily.

> And if the Merkel coalition is the most social-democratic effort Germany can
> produce, Europe will soon be a thing of the past.

They introduced pension presents for mothers and workers, regulated rent and
broker commissions for tenants and introduced a minimum wage in the past two
years alone. This is not a defensive argument for Merkels achievements, I
could think of much better ways to spend that money, but an argument for the
CDUs social-democratic character.

Edit: Forced end of conversation by HN. Nice discussion, we will see how it
will work out :)

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi_2.0](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi_2.0)

------
yeureka
Public pressure should be enough reason to vote against the treaty, not
postpone it until people forget about it.

~~~
vetinari
It was postponed, because currently it would not pass due to pressure. So they
are buying time for lobbying.

Not that it really matters, because the EC doesn't have to respect the result
of the EP vote. It is just symbolic.

~~~
tormeh
I'm pretty sure they do have to respect the vote. EU bureaucrats are far too
frustrated with the EU parliament for it to be merely symbolic

~~~
Nursie
In fact, I'm pretty sure it's the only real power the parliament has - to say
"no" once in a while.

------
acd
You do not get legislations like TTIP in smaller democratic circles, its only
when the whole political apparatus is too big to be hold accountable. It's
them the big top politicians in some far away country in EU that you cannot
directly reach that we get this kind legislation.

I am assuming it’s also non-governmental think tanks that come up with the
ideas that leave us the funny acronym sounding legislations that is not in the
public’s best interest. Why do they have to draft the proposals in secret if
it’s good for the public? If you are not ashamed of your actions you show it,
if you hide something or lie you are afraid that in the light others might not
like what you propose.

The computer analogy would be open source vs closed source or security by
obscurity.

~~~
sveme
Why should the size of countries matter in this regard? How small does a
country have to be to not succumb to these proceedings? Example 1: CETA, the
Canada-EU trade agreement. Basically similar to TTIP, by a country with 35 mio
citizens. Example 2: All the trade agreements done in the last 50 years by
Germany with smaller countries such as Pakistan. Investor dispute settlement
courts have been invented in these trade agreements. I'd argue quite the
opposite - the larger one of the entities, the better the outcome for said
entity in the talks. What do you think would happen in trade agreement talks
between Hungary and the US? You think Hungary would have any weight on its
side?

The problem is rather the disproportionate influence of corporations on trade
talks through lobbying. That needs to end and there needs to be a
complementary influence by NGOs to balance the effects of lobbyists.

~~~
tormeh
Pakistan is bigger than Germany. I know, it sounds weird.

------
louithethrid
The very fact, that such a propsal makes it into parliament to be discussed,
which is basically a self-castration of power shows how far politics have
degenerated. What has a world come to- when you cant even trust the lust of
the mighty to be in controll?

~~~
pgeorgi
Some of them might hope for a ticket for the new power base in exchange for
their compliance.

------
Lancey
I'm pessimistic about the chances of TTIP being stopped. For all the public
outcry and actions of those brave politicians standing against it, I have a
feeling that negotiations will side with the money.

~~~
cLeEOGPw
Politicians want money so they are able to influence public and get them
elected again. Signing this will directly hurt the chances of reelection.
That's what is holding them back. if they will lose more voters than get money
to compensate for the loss it may not be worth it to take that money for them.

------
mlamat
Don't worry, they'll get in through the "parliament" sooner or later.

There is too much money at stake.

------
omniverse
Postponing something like this that would boost the prosperity of both
continents is highly irresponsible. Majority of the public can only grasp
emotional catchphrases and isn't nearly cognitively capable of grasping the
enormous benefits of this important agreement. This is incredibly frustrating,
it should have been signed 50 years ago.

~~~
anonyfox
I don't see any benefit for EU countries here. Also, as long as the papers
aren't fully opened for the public, signing them would render our "democracy"
here a joke. It's just not acceptable.

Basically this whole thing exists solely to strengthen the power of huge US
companies against these "nasty" EU regulations. No thanks, deregulation isn't
something we want here.

Even if everything here falls apart regarding connections to the US we would
still be humming along just fine in the EU.

~~~
omniverse
EU is much poorer than US due to its socialist policies and if you oppose this
agreement you wish to rob others EU citizens of prosperity, you should re-
examine your tyrannical stance.

US companies run circles around EU companies because US has a freer business
environment, although both could learn a lot from Singapore even more.

~~~
anonyfox
Poor? Measuring what? Yes, the US is much more liberal and stuff, but know
what? We have way lower crime rates, much less citizens in prison, good
healthcare and education systems for everyone, and average people don't have
to work in 3 jobs in parallel to earn a living. And tell me, a german, about
how rich the US is, comparing the national dept? Isn't it that China virtually
owns a large chunk of the US already due to credits and bonds?

Yes, the top 1% in the US have much more money than the top 1% in EU, but
that's it. Oh my god, we also have less startups with boatloads of funding
that develop the next big social messenger thingy, or mobile app for
optimizing "how to burn through VC". Woo!

Seriously, you lost me with "socialist policies". This is complete bullshit.
You have to strike a balance between business greediness and general welfare.

------
briandear
It's interesting how the article explains the FUD aspects and not the
benefits. There are significant benefits, but you wouldn't know it due to the
anti-trade lobby's propaganda to the contrary. I don't have a position in the
agreement because I haven't read it, but then again, neither has anyone else;
even the U.S. congress can't get ready access to the agreement's text. So
we're debating a phantom.

I would be glad if the agreement simply ended tariffs and protectionism. It's
completely silly that certain products in the UK cost double the same product
in the U.S., even after adjusting for VAT. For example Grivel G12 crampons
cost $175 in the U.S. And about £150 in the UK. Things like clothing are
hugely more expensive in France than the U.S. (North Face jackets for
example.) Hershey's syrup is triple the price than in the U.S. However
conversely, Nutella is actually cheaper in the U.S. There are thousands of
examples like this. It's funny how a Volkswagen made in the U.S. And sold in
the U.S. is less expensive than a Volkswagen made in Germany and sold in
Germany.

~~~
DanBC
You haven't read it but you know there are significant benefits and that the
opposition to it is FUD?

