
Coconut oil is 'pure poison', says Harvard professor - leonagano
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2018/aug/22/coconut-oil-is-pure-poison-says-harvard-professor
======
jamilbk
Where is the literature? Without strong supporting studies, arguments like
these have little merit.

This seems like more of the established argument that saturated and mono
unsaturated fats are unhealthy (butter, coconut oil, beef tallow, etc), where
in fact polyunsaturated fats are better for you (canola oil, sunflower oil,
most fried foods, etc).

I find this hard to believe. Just a simple common sense analysis disagrees:
saturated and mono unsaturated fats are found in higher ratios to
polyunsatured fats all over nature in the foods our ancestors have been eating
for hundreds of thousands of years. One great example is wild seafood,
especially salmon.

For those wanting an introduction to the literature on this stuff, "Perfect
Health Diet" is a great read.

[http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/09/saturated-fat-
reduces-r...](http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/09/saturated-fat-reduces-risk-
of-stroke-and-heart-disease/)

~~~
tomp
> foods our ancestors have been eating for hundreds of thousands of years

This isn't a good argument, as our ancestors have also been dying by 40 years
of age.

~~~
globe1337
You're right it's not a good argument. A better argument would be taking a
look at how long humans have been afflicted by things like heart disease,
diabetes, and different types of cancer. I'll give you a hint, they're
relatively recent developments in the history of our species.

RE: Dying by 40, how much of that data takes into account infant deaths and
things like clean running water? I don't think early humans were dying from
"artery clogging saturated fat" and if that was the case, wouldn't we have
generally evolved not to eat things that killed us?

~~~
tomp
> wouldn't we have generally evolved not to eat things that killed us

I'm not convinced that's true, evolution only works to improve fertility; e.g.
women after menopause have no evolutionary purpose. Even for men it's not
clear why a longer life-span would result in increased reproductive success
(maybe men have most/best children when they're young?).

Although I must admit it's surprising that there wasn't more evolutionary
pressure to increase the " _health_ -span" of people (i.e. women's fertile
years, and men's and women's "peak physical performance" years) - maybe having
_too_ many children isn't a good thing (decreases genetic diversity pool and
is thus bad for the whole species), or there was another kind of evolutionary
trade-off (e.g. human females "waste" eggs by having a "concealed" ovulation
every month, instead of being "in heat" (like in dogs) or by ovulating only
after sex (like in cats); however, this allows for other evolutionarily
beneficial adaptations [1]).

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_ovulation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_ovulation)

~~~
bluGill
A long lifespan for men results in more reproductive success. Even one
offspring from an old man is a success that the man who dies young doesn't
have. This is a small factor but small can be enough.

There is also the factor that old people without children can help find food
and defend the whole tribe thus ensuring better survival of their
grandchildren.

------
globe1337
The idea that saturated fat is bad for you is a complete joke and it's frankly
embarrassing that so many smart people are still duped by it. Human beings
have been hunting and eating animals (mostly ruminants, which are
predominantly _GASP_ saturated fat) for hundreds of thousands of years, if not
longer. Yet the rates we see heart disease, cancer, diabetes (so-called
diseases of civilization) have never been more prevalent than in recent years.
Doesn't that suggest the cause is something other than unjustly vilified
saturated fat?

~~~
jstandard
> Human beings have been hunting and eating animals ... for hundreds of
> thousands of years,

This seems a bad argument. Our lifestyles, diet compositions, bodies, ability
to diagnose medical illness or cause of death, understanding of nutrition, and
lifespans have all gone through several revolutions throughout the years.

The clickbait headline of the article ("pure poison") and and author's
comments were inflammatory, which is likely what you're reacting too. However
the article does go on to talk about the link between saturated fat as a well-
known risk factor for heart disease.

Given the lifestyle trend of humans toward more sedentary living than our
hunting/gathering ancestors, suggesting people of today be careful about
limiting their intake of saturated fats is a good thing.

~~~
globe1337
But there is absolutely no evidence that saturated fat causes any of the
diseases of civilization. Why should people limit their intake of it?

Did early hunter-gatherer populations count calories? I don't think they did
and I don't think counting calories is necessary or sufficient for health. If
you eat real food (such as... animal fats) you will naturally become satiated
enough and know when it's time to stop.

~~~
jstandard
> But there is absolutely no evidence that saturated fat causes any of the
> diseases of civilization. Why should people limit their intake of it?

This is indisputably wrong. There is a mountain of evidence linking the
consumption of saturated fat to cardiovascular disease. The article linked to
a recent summary study from the American Heart association. Plenty of others
are a simple google search away.

------
mhkool
There is no scientific evidence to support the statement that Coconut Oil is
pure poison. This professor is a quack.

~~~
ExactoKnight
It's what scientists have to say to get into the headlines these days. That
doesn't mean his underlying point lacks merit. But it is absolutely
frustrating how inconclusive and frequently contradictory science around food
and health continue to be.

~~~
bluGill
food is very hard to study.

There are two possible conclusions from a study. First is "despite our best
attempt our subjects did not follow the assigned diet". Second is has real
conclusions, but the subjects are confined to either a prison cell or hospital
bed and so the conclusion doesn't apply to you. This is a little cynical, but
the point is valid.

The other problem is human lifespans are a long time. How does eating/skipping
food X at 15 affect your lifespan - such a study would need millions of
participants that are followed for as much as 80 years. It is very hard to run
such a study, and the standards of science have been changing (for good
reason!) over time such that it is unlikely any such study even if it
completes would be publishable by whatever the current standard are.

To get around the second science studies markers. It is a statistical fact
that people with high LDL tend to have heart attacks and die younger than
people with normal LDL. However there are people with normal LDL who have
heart attacks and die young; and also people with high LDL who live to an old
age without ever having a heart attack - why we do not know. We know that
saturated fat raises LDL, but we don't know if that is actually a factor in
heart attacks - but lacking anything else to go on we assume saturated fat
makes a heart attack more likely - this could be false but we have nothing
better at this time, and are unlikely to find anything better.

------
ifend
Has this guy been living under a rock for the last 10-15 years! The healthiest
fats you can consume are saturated, they don't oxidize has quickly in your
arteries and cause blockages. Instead he recommends "rapeseed" oil (Canola) --
that is PURE poison and the reason for so much heart disease. One simple rule
to _live_ by, don't fucking eat any type of vegetable oil!

------
LinuxBender
I would expect the write-up from a professor to be academic and scientific.
Where is their write-up?

~~~
d0lph
"Michels based her warning on the high proportion of saturated fat in coconut
oil, which is known to raise levels of so-called LDL cholesterol, and so the
risk of cardiovascular disease. Coconut oil contains more than 80% saturated
fat, more than twice the amount found in lard, and 60% more than is found in
beef dripping."

~~~
LinuxBender
I am looking for a scientific write-up that shows the correlation of dietary
cholesterol and blood cholesterol as it pertains to coconut oil. This write-up
should be a human study that shows a controlled test of a number of subjects
consuming coconut oil vs not, and the direct correlation of dietary and blood
cholesterol.

~~~
patall
Please ignore my irony, but good luck funding that. Almost no well known food
item would/has ever go through something like that as it would set you back
several (tens) millions. The best you can hope for is a study where people
report eating different substances in their daily lives and afterwards you
draw conclusions from several biomedical read-outs. But that wont be cheap
either, you would just be testing multiple things at once.

~~~
dagoat
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5745680/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5745680/)

~~~
patall
Good catch, thank you. In retrospective, I should have written 'to prove that
there is no effect' since for that you would need a much bigger (and more
diverse) cohort over a longer time frame. If you have a strong effect, this is
obviously not necessary.

------
kup0
Isn't the role of saturated fats in cardiovascular disease being
revisited/questioned nowadays?

...or did my lenses get tinted by the "carbs are poison" crowd?

~~~
leephillips
Everything in nutrition will probably always be revisited. But I think the
popularity of the idea that saturated fats are just fine is due to Gary
Taubes. There is a mountain of research supporting the medical consensus to
strictly limit saturated fats to avoid heart attacks. Here is a good starting
point that reveals Taubes' selective and plain wrong use of research reports:

[https://nutritionsciencefactcheck.com/2012/09/26/good-
calori...](https://nutritionsciencefactcheck.com/2012/09/26/good-calories-bad-
calories-a-critical-review/)

~~~
kup0
Thanks. Will check this out.

~~~
leephillips
Then, there's this, that I saw today:

[https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/15/1111](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/15/1111)

So, who knows. I'm glad I went into physics - biology is too complicated.

~~~
kup0
Wow, yeah. Then again, who knows if the conclusions here are based on the same
flawed studies Taubes references. Being a non-scientist, it is quite a
fatiguing process to try to make sense of the plethora of contradictory
studies. Then on top of that, it's difficult to find someone that can compile
them and draw a conclusion without themselves adding bias, or worse,
completely misrepresenting the data (news organizations I'm looking at you...)
Yeesh.

------
prudhvis
There are people in Kerala, India. Who pretty much cook all food in coconut
oil. How are they able to survive >100 years, if it is pure poison?.

~~~
billfruit
Yes, It does seem that in Kerala where most foods are made with coconut oil,
life expectancy is higher than most other Indian states. May be cause of the
unpolished riced used there as well.

~~~
addicted
Kerala also has significantly higher literacy rates than the rest of India. It
seems like a state that is overall an outlier, so I suspect there are far too
many confounding factors to confidently determine whether the diet is the root
cause of a higher life expectancy.

~~~
skookum
There's a bit of "the dose makes the poison" at play here as well: Cooking
with coconut oil is one thing. Making bulletproof coffee with 2-3 tbsp of
coconut oil per serving is quite another.

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mindgam3
Don’t believe the hype. All saturated fats are not created equal. Coconut oil
boosts the “good” HDL cholesterol levels, as opposed to other fats which will
only raise your “bad” LDL cholesterol. This article is clickbait and reads
like an attempt for an otherwise unknown epidemiologist (not even a nutrition
specialist) to raise their profile by saying something provocative with no
evidence.

------
creep
I put this stuff on my face every morning and my skin has never looked or felt
better.

I also put it on toast almost every morning, have been doing so for years, and
I am the healthiest I've ever been. I mean, I have also taken other steps
towards my health (coconut oil is definitely not the biggest factor either)
but come on, this article is a joke.

Sounds like fake news.

~~~
WalterGR
“Fake news” is news that is deliberately untrue - entirely fabricated stories
- in order to attract clicks (for advertising revenue) or to change or muddle
public opinion.

Applying it to an article that a person thinks is incorrect based on a sample
size of themselves only surves to muddy the meaning of the term.

~~~
creep
Aye yeah sorry it was a little joke.

------
vanattab
Hmm... maybe that explains why I like coconut oil so much! Seems like it's
always the unhealthy stuff that tastes so good. I highly recommend you make
your popcorn with a little high quality coconut oil and a little salt;
positively orgasmic.

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citilife
I've actually found it relatively difficult to even find good, pure, coconut
oil (for a reasonable price).

~~~
chosenbreed
> I've actually found it relatively difficult to even find good, pure, coconut
> oil (for a reasonable price). A general sign that it can be completely avoid
> without any harm. I think in general anything that's hyped up by celebrities
> or primarily promoted by specialist retailers can generally be avoided. I
> suspect most people promoting it have something to gain $$$. Isn't it
> amazing how few adverts/celebrity endorsements we have for water, bread (I
> mean even wholemeal, granary, rye, etc), potatoes, apples, tomatoes, etc

~~~
jjeaff
We definitely have gotten plenty of hype for bread over the years. Especially
"whole grains". Just look at the food pyramid with 11 freaking recommended
servings a day of grains... Provided of course by the US department of
agriculture.

I believe the pyramid has been modified now, but I have no doubt it
contributed to the obesity epidemic. Bread, even whole grains, contain a lot
of sugar.

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mathewsanders
some people seem pretty pleased with its benefits:
[https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/behold-the-power-of-
coco...](https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/behold-the-power-of-coconut-oil)

------
joncrane
Isn't the primary human use of coconut oil topical? Is it poisonous topically
as well?

~~~
atombender
No, coconut is used extensively in cooking, though perhaps especially South-
Asian cooking. The "poisonous" part is because coconut oil is mostly saturated
fats. Saturated fats have no adverse effects on the skin.

The last decade it's been featured heavily as a healthy alternative oil to use
in food — perhaps boosted by studies (I don't have a link at the moment,
unfortunately) that seemed to show that the saturated fats in coconut oil were
metabolized in a way that somehow didn't clog your arteries.

Coconut oil also happens to have a high smoke point, so it can be used on high
heat, which makes it a great oil for certain types of cooking.

Oh, and pretty much all the popcorn in the US is made cooked with coconut oil;
it's part of what makes the "theater popcorn smell".

------
jmpman
I have a hard time believing that an oil which is liquid at body temperature
is the same threat as saturated fats which are solid at body temperature.

~~~
bluGill
The idea that liquid at temperature has anything to do with health is
outdated. It seems to have been spread by the transfat supporters 30 years
ago, and they have been discredited.

~~~
jmpman
Elaidic acid (major transfat) has a melting point of 113F. And now I see that
coconut oil is primarily lauric acid, with a melting point of 110F. They both
look bad from the assessment of melting point greater than body temperature.

Have any papers that specifically discredit “liquid at temperature” health
implications?

It seems like transfat was only exposed as a problem through long term
evaluation, and the studies likely couldn’t determine if it was just transfat
with melting points over a certain temp which caused the effects.

~~~
bluGill
I don't know of science (which would be good to have), but it seem unlikely.
Fat is broken down in the digestive system by various enzymes, and potentially
dissolved in various solvents in the body. The simplistic analysis of melting
temperatures is not useful, you need to figure out what happens in the context
of the human body (other animals will have a different digestive system) which
is very different from what happens on your kitchen counter.

