
U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps' - learc83
https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/05/04/xinjiang-u-s-accuses-china-of-putting-up-to-3m-muslims-in-concentration-camps/#3a1c719272b1
======
zachguo
Another scaremongering article from this author again. This author's company
directly competes with surveillance and security companies from China.

Official number is 13k [1], but people think those jaw dropping estimations
from religious groups are more believable.

[1]
[https://www.apnews.com/0e3b005d281345278ed470823096ec9b](https://www.apnews.com/0e3b005d281345278ed470823096ec9b)

~~~
originldirgibl
I don't know this guy specifically, but it's been reported by other sources.
This is a real thing that's happening.

I find the general Chinese apologism on this site strange. Even if it were 13k
why would it not be an issue that China is placing people in concentration
camps? Not even to get into the argument about the reliability of the 13k
number because that's just laughable given literally every source that isn't
China's government disagrees with that.

[1]
[https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1KV1SU)

[2]
[https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1S925K](https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1S925K)

[3]
[https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2019/03/290713.htm](https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2019/03/290713.htm)

~~~
dang
There is not "general Chinese apologism" on HN. What there is, is divisiveness
on China-related topics that is growing for social, geopolitical, and media
reasons completely beyond the scope of this site. Moreover, the population on
HN is majority Western (50% US, 30% Europe, 7% Australia/Canada, if I remember
correctly), so views here are skewed in rather the opposite direction to what
you suggest.

HN users don't have to hold any particular views on these topics but they
absolutely have to treat each other respectfully, including by not calling
names (such as "Chinese apologism"), and nationalistic flamewar is not
permitted.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
originldirgibl
Even if the population follows that distribution it doesn't mean the comments
follow a homogonous reflection of the dominant opinion of the population.

I apologize if the apologism comment went too far. It is my perception in
reading HN comments, and is not meant to be a normative view of the facts, and
especially not meant to be nationalist comment.

You also did not add anything to the discussion by trying to call me out as
"disrespectful." This just further derails the discussion. I don't know what
the goal of your comment was, but to get the discussion back on track I'll
just add more sources to bolster my position and let any substantive
discussion follow:

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/25/at-
least-12000...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/25/at-
least-120000-muslim-uighurs-held-in-chinese-re-education-camps-report)

[https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/muslims-in-
china-p...](https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/muslims-in-china-
province-detained-in-re-education-camps-invasive-surveillance-on-say-
reports/story-aEVi9tyhRAyrPBmPhjhCvL.html)

[https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/china-s-
xinjiang-...](https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/china-s-xinjiang-
province-a-surveillance-state-unlike-any-the-world-has-ever-
seen-a-1220174.html)

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06gds2h](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06gds2h)

[https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/28/a-summer-vacation-in-
ch...](https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/28/a-summer-vacation-in-chinas-
muslim-gulag/)

[https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2018-06-20/ree...](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2018-06-20/reeducation-
returns-china)

[https://www.ft.com/content/ac0ffb2e-8b36-11e8-b18d-0181731a0...](https://www.ft.com/content/ac0ffb2e-8b36-11e8-b18d-0181731a0340)

[https://chinachange.org/2018/08/10/a-call-for-a-un-
investiga...](https://chinachange.org/2018/08/10/a-call-for-a-un-
investigation-and-us-sanctions-on-the-human-rights-disaster-unfolding-in-
xinjiang/)

------
tepidandroid
I actually find the evolution of this blatant, shameless propaganda amusing.

You could actually observe, in real-time, the ramping up of accusations and
headline hysterics in sequence:

1\. 50k muslims detained

2\. 100k muslims detained and put into re-education camps

3\. 500k muslims arrested and put into _concentration_ camps!

4\. One _million_ muslims torn out of homes and put into concentration camps
and getting their organs harvested!

5\. _Three_ million muslims torn out of homes and put into concentration
camps, getting organs harvested _and_ being brutally tortured!

It's easy to see how Americans were so readily misled about Iraq.

~~~
elliekelly
It seems a lot of your recent comment history is defensive of the status quo
in China. I'd be curious to know your background. Do you live there?

~~~
tepidandroid
I am not defensive of the status quo in China. I'm simply presenting an
alternative viewpoint to the recent, ongoing anti-China media/social-media
blitz campaign.

Sorry, but I will not provide more information about myself than I have to. It
doesn't matter anyhow since I will be accused of being a CCP shill 50c poster
anyway.

~~~
elliekelly
Apologies, I didn't mean to offend, I'm just trying to understand where you're
coming from. Can you help me understand what makes the reports on the Chinese
government's detention of Muslims propaganda rather than news?

~~~
tepidandroid
The lack of objective, conclusive evidence.

The lack of a cohesive and consistent narrative.

The current geopolitical climate.

~~~
elliekelly
> The lack of objective, conclusive evidence.

It's my understanding that the Chinese government has acknowledged and even
run television commercials, such as this one[1] about the camps. Chinese
officials have also made several comments to Chinese newspapers about the
existence of the camps[2, 3] and have commented that the purpose of those
camps is "reeducation" and to "reform extremism" through labor. The comments
also note the purpose of the camps is to prevent terrorism and "separatists"
by forcing them to speak the language of the "homeland" which seems to
indicate the camps are predominantly intended for Muslims.

Satellite images[4] of the camps indicate the rapid growth of the facilities
and the existence of watch towers, redundant high walls, and barbed wire would
least most reasonable people to agree these facilities are built to house
people against their will. The Chinese government has also acknowledged as
much. For example, the Government has repeatedly pointed to the "Opinions on
Several Issues on the Application of Law in Cases of Terrorist Activities and
Extremism Crimes"[5] as the legal justification for the imprisonment of
"terrorist extremists." However one of the "extremist" activities that can be
used to imprison someone is "inciting" people to hold a religious marriage
ceremony. The document also allows for "administrative punishment" without a
trial or conviction.

One analysis of arrests (using data reported by the Chinese government) showed
21% of all 2017 arrests in the country were in the Muslim region of
Xinjiang.[6] Given the region accounts for only 1.5% of the total population
of China the arrests of ethnic Muslims seems disproportionately high.

We admittedly don't have exact data on the _number_ of people imprisoned
against their will but people have been able to estimate given the number and
size of facilities built and by using job postings/factory information
available online.

Even if we only looked at the evidence provided by the Chinese government we
can objectively conclude that:

    
    
         (a) These labor camps exist;
    
         (b) These camps detain people without a trial or conviction;
    
         (c) The primary purpose of these camps is to "reform" ethnic Muslims living in the Xinjiang region; and
    
         (d) At *least* 500,000 people from the region have been sent to these camps.
    

Given that the source of all of the information I've outlined above is the
Chinese government can you be more specific about the "objective, conclusive
evidence" you'd need to consider the information reliable?

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REGM8I2iMjU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REGM8I2iMjU)

[2A - Requires Google Translate]
[http://www.chinaxinjiang.cn/zixun/xjxw/201810/t20181016_5707...](http://www.chinaxinjiang.cn/zixun/xjxw/201810/t20181016_570748.htm)

[2B - "Full" English Transcript is missing significant portions compared to
2A]
[http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-10/16/c_137535720.htm](http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-10/16/c_137535720.htm)

[3]
[http://wap.xjdaily.com/xjrb/20181111/118479.html](http://wap.xjdaily.com/xjrb/20181111/118479.html)

[4] [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-
expo...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expose-
chinas-network-of-re-education-camps/10432924)

[5]
[https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/%E5%85%B3%E4%BA%8E%E5%8...](https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/%E5%85%B3%E4%BA%8E%E5%8A%9E%E7%90%86%E6%81%90%E6%80%96%E6%B4%BB%E5%8A%A8%E5%92%8C%E6%9E%81%E7%AB%AF%E4%B8%BB%E4%B9%89%E7%8A%AF%E7%BD%AA%E6%A1%88%E4%BB%B6%E9%80%82%E7%94%A8%E6%B3%95%E5%BE%8B%E8%8B%A5/)

[6] [https://www.nchrd.org/2018/07/criminal-arrests-in-
xinjiang-a...](https://www.nchrd.org/2018/07/criminal-arrests-in-xinjiang-
account-for-21-of-chinas-total-in-2017/)

~~~
tepidandroid
>It's my understanding that the Chinese government has acknowledged and even
run television commercials, such as this one[1] about the camps. Chinese
officials have also made several comments to Chinese newspapers about the
existence of the camps[2, 3] and have commented that the purpose of those
camps is "reeducation" and to "reform extremism" through labor. The comments
also note the purpose of the camps is to prevent terrorism and "separatists"
by forcing them to speak the language of the "homeland" which seems to
indicate the camps are predominantly intended for Muslims.

You seem to be under the false impression that I have denied the existence of
the camps. I don’t, and nowhere have I done so. I dispute the scale and
characterization of the camps. Namely: millions detained, hard labor, torture,
organ harvesting. I have yet to see any objective evidence proving any of
these allegations.

>Satellite images[4] of the camps indicate the rapid growth of the facilities
and the existence of watch towers, redundant high walls, and barbed wire would
least most reasonable people to agree these facilities are built to house
people against their will.

Ok, so you have now proven that the Chinese government is building a detention
facility at best, at worst a prison/concentration camp. Do they have the right
to build prisons? Do they have the right to build prisons to house extremists
and/or terrorists? We don’t know anything about who they are housing there or
why amongst a multitude of other unknown variables. Also, prisons are indeed
generally built to house people against their will.

>The Chinese government has also acknowledged as much. For example, the
Government has repeatedly pointed to the "Opinions on Several Issues on the
Application of Law in Cases of Terrorist Activities and Extremism Crimes"[5]
as the legal justification for the imprisonment of "terrorist extremists."
However one of the "extremist" activities that can be used to imprison someone
is "inciting" people to hold a religious marriage ceremony. The document also
allows for "administrative punishment" without a trial or conviction.

The context of that line precedes it (“using extremism to”), and the line is
actually more nuanced than that. It mentions the word “masses”.

(5) _Using extremism_ to commit any of the following conduct, is to be
convicted and punished in accordance with Criminal Law article 120-4 as the
crime of exploiting extremism to undermine the law: 1．Inciting or coercing the
masses to hold religious ceremonies in place of marriage or divorce
registration, or interfering with marital freedom;

In other words, one cannot _force_ masses of people to hold religious
ceremonies against their will, _in lieu of official marriage registration_. It
also says interfering with marital freedom, for example things like arranged
child marriages, are illegal. Stopping someone from marrying out of race or
out of religion in the name of your religion would be also illegal. These
scenarios are quite common and accepted in certain religions and are contrary
to the CCP’s long-term goals of population integration (whether this is right
or wrong is another argument). Yes, the term _extremism_ is loosely defined
and has been used and abused by many countries in recent history to justify
certain actions. “One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”, etc,
etc.

> One analysis of arrests (using data reported by the Chinese government)
> showed 21% of all 2017 arrests in the country were in the Muslim region of
> Xinjiang.[6] Given the region accounts for only 1.5% of the total population
> of China the arrests of ethnic Muslims seems disproportionately high.

CHRD is headquartered in Washington D.C so you’ll excuse me if I have some
doubts. Aside from that, from your [6] citation you’ve linked:

“According to Chinese government data, criminal arrests in Xinjiang accounted
for an alarming 21% of all arrests in China in 2017, though the population in
the XUAR is only about 1.5% of China’s total, based on the 2010 Census. Ethnic
minorities account for nearly 60% of Xinjiang’s population, the largest group
being ethnic Uyghurs, who account for 46% of the population. _Though the
government does not provide the data disaggregated by ethnicity, criminal
punishment would disproportionately target the Uyghur Muslim group based on
their percentage of the population._ ”

That last line is of particular concern because it proves that the figure of
“21% arrested are Uyghur” is purely conjecture. Furthermore, the footnotes to
the statistics used in that same article show the following:

>* The Xinjiang People’s Procuratorate (XPP) Annual Work Report 2013 is not
available online, so the number of arrests for 2013 is estimated based on the
2014 report figure, which is stated as increasing by 95.7% from 2013. __The
XPP Annual Work Report 2017 does not provide the number of arrests for 2017,
but provides the total for 2013-2017, so the 2017 number is estimated by
deducting the totals from other years. __* The Supreme People’s Procuratorate
Annual Work Report 2017 does not provide the number of arrests for 2017, but
provides the total for 2013-2017, so the 2017 number is estimated by deducting
the totals for other years.

Again, estimations, projections, deductions abound. Where is the concrete
evidence?

> We admittedly don't have exact data on the number of people imprisoned
> against their will but people have been able to estimate given the number
> and size of facilities built and by using job postings/factory information
> available online.

There is decidedly _no_ evidence on the number of people imprisoned against
their will, the nature of their crimes, etc. No concrete evidence other than
satellite photos of some facilities with barbed wire fences surrounding them.
While I personally think it is likely that these are indeed prisons, there are
many factories, secure warehouses, secure worker dorms with such fences. What
do these satellite images really prove?

> Even if we only looked at the evidence provided by the Chinese government we
> can objectively conclude that:
    
    
         (a) These labor camps exist;
    
         (b) These camps detain people without a trial or conviction;
    
         (c) The primary purpose of these camps is to "reform" ethnic Muslims living in the Xinjiang region; and
    
         (d) At *least* 500,000 people from the region have been sent to these camps.
    
    
    

(a) That has not been disputed, though the nature of the labor may be in
dispute.

(b) Not in dispute

(c) The primary purpose is to reform _extremist_ Muslims living in the
Xinjiang region. I’m sure a lot of these alleged extremist Muslims happen to
be Uighur, but I doubt that their ethnicity is of primary concern.

(d) No concrete evidence of this

------
quotz
China should finally get reprimanded

------
bayareanative
Meanwhile, the US military is planning how to deal with so-called
"terrorists," many of whom were peasants sold to warlords to collect bounties,
to die of old-age in Gitmo. Also, ripping children from their parents in
migrant and asylum-seekers concentration camps. Pot, meet kettle.

~~~
kennywinker
While I agree both of those things are repulsive - the scales do not match up.
There are 3 _million_ people in camps in china, vs about 1000 at the height of
gitmo. The border camps come a little closer in raw numbers - somewhere around
0.5 millions people per year, but they are detained for short periods of time.
Estimates vary but we’re talking a few days.

Scale matters. Don’t try to downplay how completely fucked up these camps are.

~~~
tepidandroid
You're absolutely right: scale matters. The camps are not really comparable to
gitmo.

They are perhaps more akin to the U.S prison system were thousands upon
thousands of blacks and latinos are held, sometimes in isolation, sometimes
for years, without charge. Pretty fucked up.

~~~
kennywinker
I hear you and agree. Two wrongs don’t make a right, so the fact that the US
has done and does do very messed up things does not make what us happening to
Chinese muslims any less disturbing.

