

Monthly subscriptions services, I have a question for you developers. - stefpretty

Hey all, So I've got this little project that I've re-visited time and time again wondering if it's viable to monetize it for some pocket money. Now thats not the issue, the issue every time I re-visit it is I encounter the same issue.<p>The issue is dealing with subscription payments that can be upgraded and downgraded easily.<p>Let me elaborate.<p>I know of all the services: braintree, sagepay, recurly, etc etc<p>But all of them have a common denominator: They have monthly costs as well as percentage fees and some even require gateways if you're like me in the UK. And when trying to cut cost and minimise risk I don't like this as an option.<p>So I always conclude at this early stage I should test the theory using PayPal... but then this creates more issues.. I find it complicated and there are too many options &#38; products almost. Every time I google the solution theres just more people asking the same questions as I am.<p>Now I just want to see if I'm the only one who feels the same about this.<p>So I have a couple of quick questions for you, if you don't mind sparing a minute:<p>1) If you were creating a monthly service would you also opt for PayPal for processing in the early days?<p>2) Is it just me and would you say the PayPal api for this scenario is overly complicated especially when dealing with upgrades and downgrades?<p>Thanks guys, I hope I'm not the only one!...<p>-Stefan
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itsprofitbaron
Personally, I'd use PayPal. However, if you're going to create a SaaS and are
using PayPal, I highly recommend that you create a _new_ account for the
business (You are allowed 1 Personal and 1 Business account separately with
PayPal[1]). The reason I say this is because, if you ever decide to sell your
SaaS you cannot transfer the user subscriptions with the email to the buyer
as, they are linked to the PayPal account - so you either have to give them
the PayPal account _or_ they're going to lose a lot of existing buyers (People
sign up for these types of service and forget they're paying).

[1] [https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-
bin/marketingweb?cmd=_render-c...](https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-
bin/marketingweb?cmd=_render-
content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US#2.%20Accounts).

~~~
stefpretty
Thanks for highlighting this. Would you say that the paypal api is overly
complex and a bit of a headache with what im trying to achieve?

~~~
itsprofitbaron
I wouldn't bother with the PayPal API because you can simply create a PayPal
subscription button within PayPal and integrate PayPal's Instant Payment
Notification (IPN) into your database - this is simpler than using PayPal's
APIs IMO.

There's actually a useful tutorial/script here:
[http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/php/using-paypals-
instant-...](http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/php/using-paypals-instant-
payment-notification-with-php/)

~~~
stefpretty
True but this doesnt make it easy or rather possible for a user to upgrade or
downgrade themselves

~~~
itsprofitbaron
You can actually create a button to "modify" subscriptions (allowing them to
upgrade/downgrade packages).

There are more details here:
[https://www.x.com/developers/paypal/documentation-
tools/payp...](https://www.x.com/developers/paypal/documentation-tools/paypal-
payments-standard/integration-guide/subscribe_buttons#id09A7G0502UI)

~~~
stefpretty
Thanks for this but again, it's not the most convenient method as it waits
till the end of the billing period and it doesnt appear to send an IPN update
straight away, I've also read that it has a 20% price change limit somewhere
else as well?

~~~
itsprofitbaron
PayPal's billing changes take place at the end of the billing period. However,
the 20% limit is wrong as PayPal’s own example highlights this further down
the page on that link above.

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dangrossman
The MVP version would be to use PayPal subscriptions, not any of their APIs.
To create a subscription, you just give someone a link, and their account will
push money to yours every month. If they want to upgrade or downgrade, either
of you can cancel the existing subscription from your PayPal accounts, and
your site gives them another link for a new subscription at the new rate. You
can integrate PayPal IPN to record the payments in your database to have a
billing history. All of this involves nothing more than copying some links and
wiring up an IPN script someone else has already written for you -- under an
hour.

~~~
stefpretty
Hi thanks for this, I am aware of these facilities but they aren't ideal as
they require too much manual work for upgrades and downgrades, also not good
for UX - what i'm looking for is a happy medium which handles automation of
upgrades and downgrades, creation of subscriptions and failure or cancellation
via paypal without the headache but not a solution which requires merchant
accounts and or gateways which costs more money. thanks

~~~
dangrossman
You say you want that, but you also say you don't want to pay for the services
that automate it for you, and you also think the APIs are too hard to do it
yourself. You have to choose.

This "too much work and bad UX" got me my first 300 paying subscribers and
really involved almost no work.

~~~
stefpretty
Fair play, I know what you're trying to say but what I'm trying to work out is
if there is a service which simplifies the paypal subscription handling and
rather than be free, just charge per transaction like paypal rather than
monthly which holds risk

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justhw
If you can work your way around WordPress and know how to integrate it with
your project, I highly recommend the PaidMembershipsPro[1] plugin. It takes
care of all the issues you've mentioned and it's free (if you don't want
support) and dead simple. The only downside is you gotta know advanced
WordPress.

<http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/paid-memberships-pro/>

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SiliconAlley
I would (and have, in the recent past) opt for Stripe subscription billing:
<https://stripe.com/docs/subscriptions>. Upgrading/downgrading plans for users
is baked in (and you can even choose to prorate or not), plus, of course, it's
an integrated service rather than something that sits atop another gateway and
adds additional fees

~~~
stefpretty
I long for the day stripe comes to the UK... It's the one that makes most
sense to me and I'm surprised no one has done this earlier...

~~~
koopajah
Stripe is rumoured to come soon in the UK. There was a new recently about a
beta launching and then indicating it was an error.
<http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/02/14/stripe-uk-beta/>

Have you checked paymill's offer ? [https://www.paymill.com/en-
gb/documentation-3/introduction/s...](https://www.paymill.com/en-
gb/documentation-3/introduction/subscriptions/)

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mchannon
I was never able to find any service that made for recurring billing but for
variable amounts each month.

Ended up writing my own system- securely store the cc info yourself, get
subscribers' consent, resubmit on a monthly cronjob.

It does require more maintenance (keeping a fixed monthly fee is very
straightforward and well-supported by a number of providers) but it does work
all right.

~~~
stefpretty
THanks for your response, yeh I can imagine the variable fee would be a
nightmare. I think it's the upgrade and downgrade facility which is most
complicated in PayPal, no easy way of doing it.

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bgdam
Check out Fastspring. They have a monthly fee though. However, since they are
technically a reseller and not a pament provider you dont need merchant
accounts, gateways and the like. Also integration is a snap.

~~~
stefpretty
Thanks for sharing but it seems pretty expensive in terms of transaction fees

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devonbarrett
chargify.com is the best I have used for something like this, and it didn't
take too long to integrate. However, in the long run I would probably opt to
manage it all myself for the flexibility.

~~~
stefpretty
Thanks for this but again it requires a monthly fee and a gateway as well

