
Dwarf Fortress in 2013 - cpeterso
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195148/dwarf_fortress_in_2013.php?print=1
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axefrog
_" It's not like people see our $50,000 a year and think 'Hey, I want a piece
of that pie.' They'd much rather look towards things like Minecraft, where
there are hundreds of millions of dollars."_

The brothers have this massive, massive blindspot regarding the importance of
the UI. That $50,000 cap they perceive is barely scratching the surface of
what would be possible for them if they made the damn thing a bit more
accessible to the average person. It's great that their small niche base loves
ASCII art and doesn't mind fumbling their way through a hostile interface in
order to play the game, but that is the primary reason the game stays confined
within a tiny niche corner of the gaming market.

They have the real possibility that if they did that seed work, even just on
exposing an API into the game, as opposed to venturing into a full-on UI
overhaul, that enough new people would be introduced to the game that they
could hire a third developer to focus specifically on the API and UI aspects
of the game, leaving them free to keep working on the bits they love.

~~~
robbiep
You are, of course, totally right.

But do you know much about dwarf fortress? The brothers have responded to
questions about this a number of times (regarding UI) but more importantly
than that, it appears that they don't particuarly care about making the big
bucks.

They are totally happy just pottering along with a loyal hardcore following,
earning a very middle class salary, doing something they are massively
passionate about. In fact, it seems that what they have is all they ever want
in life. They are in their nirvana.

Good for them!

~~~
axefrog
I don't disagree with you. I think I'm just bitter because I hate bad UIs and
it stops me from properly exploring the game. I don't understand why they
don't care about the fact that so many people will never experience their
creation because of the unnecessary barrier they've created.

~~~
dspillett
_> I don't understand why they don't care about the fact that so many people
will never experience their creation because of the unnecessary barrier
they've created._

Would people care to experience it if they could? I've always assumed with
this (and a number of other things in life) that _being_ a bit of a niche
interest (or in this case a lot of a niche interest) in part _creates_ the
niche interest. There have been many rogue-a-likes with more modern interfaces
but they have either not attracted or not managed to keep up the interest that
this one has. Perhaps it is a nostalgia thing, perhaps it is a "nerd" thing;
what-ever it is it works for them and their audience and changing the game to
appeal to a larger audience might both fail to do so and make the existing
fans wander off (and make it less enjoyable for the developers to work on:
they seem to be getting quite a kick out of their baby and its current fans
and don't want to lose that).

The comparison some make with minecraft on the "being a bit niche creating a
niche" thing is quite fair, and this "if you were more like that you might
have a much larger audience" comments perfectly valid, but minecraft's niche
being an order of magnitude or few bigger might be in part due to luck (right
thing, right time, critical mass didn't hit to early or too late, ...) rather
than just the relative prettiness and intuitiveness.

Caveat: I've played neither Dwarf Fortress nor Minecraft, so I may not really
have a clue what I'm talking about.

~~~
axefrog
You falsely attribute a niche's draw to the fact that it's niche. I find it
unlikely that people would base their interest in a game on its popularity, or
lack thereof. If the game is fun, people will play it. If it's not, they
won't.

~~~
FreezerburnV
There might actually be more to the "if it's niche, some people are more
interested in it" mentality. It's anecdotal, yes, but I know that I have an
odd tendency to prefer games that aren't hyper popular. New Call of Duty or
Halo? I don't care how "well made" the game is, I won't play it. A tiny,
unknown RPG/Rhythm game hybrid (Sequence)? I gobble it up. All my friends
start playing one game? I play another. Etc. I wonder how many people might
have some unconscious tendency to gravitate toward those games which are no
very popular, or if I'm just an oddball.

Maybe DF being a niche helps in some way. I don't know. But I do know that the
UI is, almost objectively, not good. I know it's why I stopped playing. Once
you get more than 20 dwarfs or so, managing who does what is ridiculous. (at
least without external tools. I think the popularity and almost necessity of
some external tools really does show that the UI can be atrocious at some
points. (also note this is not a comment on the ASCII nature of the game,
that's fine))

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alex_c
For anyone unfamiliar with Dwarf Fortress and wondering what all the fuss is
about, I recommend the classic 'Boatmurdered' chronicles:

[http://lparchive.org/Dwarf-Fortress-
Boatmurdered/](http://lparchive.org/Dwarf-Fortress-Boatmurdered/)

It's a fairly long read, but as always when Dwarf Fortress is involved, it's
well worth the effort.

~~~
fleshgolem
It's also hilariously outdated, to the point that the game had a whole
dimension less than it does now.

Still a great read though

~~~
morsch
I loved reading Boatmurdered many months ago; is there anything of similar
quality that reflects the current state of affairs in DF?

~~~
Fargren
Bravemule ([http://www.bravemule.com](http://www.bravemule.com)) is a great
read, and it's a lot more current that Boatmurdered.

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jmduke
If the history of Dwarf Fortress interests you, I recommend you check out the
history of roguelike games (probably the nerdiest of all my passions.) Dungeon
Crawl: Stone Soup, for example, is a beautiful illustration of applying open
source software development tenets to a massive game, as dozens of
contributors have continuously evolved and enhanced it over time (and its
massively fun to boot.)

~~~
ricree
Speaking of the history of roguelikes, I've been pretty impressed by Nicolas
Casalini, aka Darkgod. I'm not sure exactly how long he's been involved in the
scene, but he's been developing since at least Pernband back in the late 90s.

His Tome2, in the early part of the last decade, was arguably the pinnacle of
old-school _band style roguelikes (as opposed to the_ hack style popularized
by nethack, or more modern, user-friendly ones that have been cropping up the
past couple years). The current Tales of Maj'Eyal is one of the most polished,
engaging roguelikes I've come across.

------
boneheadmed
I like in this particular article, how the interviewer delves into how it is
possible to sustain interest in coding a single game for so long (and
potentially for decades). Anyone who has coded games as a single dev probably
knows how bogged down you get as the game becomes more complex. Generating
graphics yourself is a huge time suck which they have neatly avoided. What's
intriguing is that the game design appears to be flexible enough to spend time
coding mineralogy and then jumping to say horticulture while still being
manageable. It would be interesting to know more about the design to see why
it is so extensible.

------
boneheadmed
I've been reading articles about this fascinating game for several days now,
but haven't had the guts to invest the time into it given its steep learning
curve. Kudos to these guys for doing exactly what they want to do and (yet)
still making a living by coding.

~~~
sage_joch
Ever since I read the NY Times article posted here a couple years ago (see
below), I have had a similar response. I love reading _about_ Dwarf Fortress,
but I'm hesitant to actually try it.

 _[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance-
of...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance-of-dwarf-
fortress.html?pagewanted=all*)

~~~
exDM69
You guys should just try the game. There have been a few articles that
highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern
console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention
span.

You can grok the basics of the game in an hour or so by following a beginner
tutorial. During your first few hours you will fail your first few fortresses.

After your first session, you should have a grasp of things and the next time
you should be able to just pick up the game and get back to it.

I think the time suck aspect of this game is exaggerated a lot. You can pause
and save the game at any point and get back to it later.

There's one thing that some of the tutorials and introductions don't make
clear: you control the fortress, not the individual dwarfs.

~~~
axefrog
_" There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game
but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda
guzzling teens with a one second attention span"_

No. Your assertion is that the only likely improvement to the UI would be a
simple gamepad-mashing interface. DF is difficult even compared to programs
with a complicated UI and games with a "normal" steep learning curve. Not
wanting to battle through an insane UI does not equate one to a "soda guzzling
teen".

~~~
boomlinde
No, his assertion wasn't that the only likely improvement to the UI would be a
simple gamepad-mashing interface.

And nowhere was is implied that not wanting to battle through an insane UI
does not equate one to a "soda guzzling teen".

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gwern
> "We've just had our mitts on this one for a long time without passing it
> along," he says, "but that's not going to be a forever thing, obviously.
> It's only going to stay afloat as long as people keep it afloat, right?"

> "I think the game has actually gotten easier compared to what it was in
> 2006," Adams reasons. "It's not really the mechanics that matter so much,
> since a lot of the mechanics in DF are under the table. A lot of the updates
> don't matter either -- I mean, I spent a month on beekeeping, but you're not
> confronted with beekeeping, and you don't need to learn how to do it, but if
> you want to make wax crafts and honey, then it's an avenue you can explore."

Perhaps it's the language weenie in me, but I can't help but think they're
doing this wrong. If you're going to work on something for 30 years (with the
Moore's law that implies), wouldn't it make a heck of a lot of sense to use
the highest-level language you can, start building up DSLs for specific things
like crafts, and other strategies so you don't spend a month hacking on a
sprawling C++ codebase just to add in beekeeping?

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idoescomputers
I literally just got into this game. It's amazing. Was it different in
previous years?

