
Does Clean Laundry Have Germs? - pmoriarty
http://www.stopthestomachflu.com/does-clean-laundry-have-germs-1
======
clumsysmurf
I thought it was common knowledge to sanitize your wash machine every month
with a bleach load to kill germs and whatever. Sadly though, none of the coin
laundry shops I go to do that. When I ask they are like, "it does 3 cycles,
there are no germs". Then people throw dog beds encrusted with feces

"If you wash a load of just underwear, there will be about 100 million E. coli
in the wash water, and they can be transmitted to the next load of laundry,"
Gerba said.

[https://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/washing-machines-
load...](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/washing-machines-loaded-
bacteria-dirty-clothes/story?id=10751420)

"Bacterial Exchange in Household Washing Machines"
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4672060/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4672060/)

~~~
Johnny555
_I thought it was common knowledge to sanitize your wash machine every month
with a bleach load to kill germs and whatever_

After decades of doing my own laundry, I'd never heard of that practice. Well,
at least not until recently when I got an HE front loader machine, now I run a
bleach cleaning cycle once a month or so to kill odor causing germs. But not
to keep germs off my clothes.

~~~
hinkley
Partly this is a design flaw with front loaders. Old school washing machine
it’s easy to leave the door open when not in use. So everything dries out and
you don’t get mildew (if your machine is like mine you are smelling mildew).

Front load the damned door smacks you in the shin and you close it. Creating a
nice little terrarium to grow stuff in.

I throw a little white vinegar into the prewash every time I launder cotton.
Keeps the mildew under control and helps with hard water.

Check out the top load HEs. The Japanese were using that design for a long
time.

~~~
njarboe
We have had the same front loader for twenty years and my girlfriend wants
that door closed. We have it always closed and never had a problem with
mildew. Don't use bleach very often either. Maybe mildew comes into the washer
from the air and once you get it you never are without it. If you always keep
it shut, the mildew never contaminates the washer. I'm also in the East Bay
where humidity is not stupid high and we don't have mildewy things to wash
often. That might be part of our luck.

Here is an experiment whose results I'd pay for. Who to fund it; NIH or NSF?
They are always asking for the societal impact of the research to be
performed.

~~~
Consultant32452
It probably has more to do with your climate than your model of washer. Warm
and wet climates vs cold and dry.

------
bbitmaster
The issue I suspect caused this is all of the newer energy efficient washers/
dryers. The author tested a Samsung dryer. I recently lived in apartment with
a similar model, and it was terrible. When visiting parents I was stunned at
how well their older washer/dryer worked. The clothes came out much more clean
too.

In my experience the newer energy efficent washers/dryers are almost total
garbage compared to the older ones. I would love to see this experiment
repeated with an older 90's kenmore or whirlpool or really any brand from the
90's or before.

I love the idea of saving energy, and energy efficient laundry sounds like a
great idea on the surface, but what I think happened was the government put
regulations in place without really considering the actual impact this would
have on the quality of the washers/dryers.

~~~
iforgotpassword
What I don't get is why those machines are so eager on saving water. The
amount of water used costs so much less compared to the electricity (at least
here in Germany) but on some kinds of load the clothes get barely wet. Making
it heat up slower or using more efficient motors would be enough IMO. Or at
least add a button that reads "waste a shitload of water".

My washer is sitting next to the kitchen sink and I just manually add a huge
load of water every time I turn that damn thing on. I installed a faucet with
a hose just for that reason.

~~~
drb91
Water is finite. Meanwhile you can generally always pay for more electricity.

Cape Town will likely be out of water by July 15.

High efficiency dryers and washers have their place; just maybe not where
water is prevalent.

~~~
gambiting
Depends on where you live - in North of England and parts of Scotland the
water is so plentiful you don't even get a water meter in your home, you only
pay a flat delivery charge each year, but are otherwise free to use as much as
you like. In which case, I'm happy to use a program that uses loads of water,
but obviously in other locations(Cape Town) the amount used should be
restricted. There is no one-size-fits-all solution.

~~~
rahimnathwani
Water may fall from the sky in the North, but it's not rainwater that comes
out of the tap at home.

The lack of water meters is a legacy thing. Water companies all over the UK
(including the North) are trying to migrate consumers away from unmetered
tariffs. For example: [https://www.nwl.co.uk/your-home/your-
account/considering-a-w...](https://www.nwl.co.uk/your-home/your-
account/considering-a-water-meter.aspx)

And in case you think the water companies are just as happy if you're on an
unmetered tariff: [https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-
news/water-m...](https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/water-
meters-how-you-forced-13560774)

------
e12e
> My sister Christy has an older top loader (not HE). She washed this laundry
> on hot and added the 1/2 cup chlorine bleach directly to the wash water and
> it was very, very clean. She measured the temperature of her wash water when
> the tank filled up using her meat thermometer and it was 130 degrees F. She
> used Sam's club detergent. Her laundry was perfectly clean (to the limits of
> my detection abilities).

So, 130F is just under 60C - what's usually the minimum considered to kill
bacteria. While I haven't measured the actual temperature, my aging, second
hand washer have three "white" programs: "hot" is 90 C, and there are two
rated 60C. I'd never assume any of the other programs had a sterilising
effect.

If "hot" is just 60C, and often not that - I can see a need to use bleach for
some loads (or other means of killing off bacteria) if the norm is to use warm
(not hot) water for washing.

Would be interesting to see similar test with just water (no soap, bleach) and
a 90C degree program.

I'd guess the results would be "dotted middleground" like many of the test
here.

Also would be nice to see how hanging in the sun would effect otherwise clean
clothes (airborne bacteria vs uv death ray stand-off - might be meaningless
without checking for _type_ of bacteria).

~~~
ChuckMcM
An interesting side effect here is that the house water heater has its own
temperature control. For years people have been turning down the temperature
setting on their water heaters to save energy, as a result the typical house
water heater might be set to 60C (130F) and the washing machine was doing the
best it could.

~~~
distances
Washing machines use cold water and heat it up themselves, so I don't see the
connection?

~~~
rsynnott
While vaguely modern European ones generally do, American ones often don’t. I
suspect this is down to the 120V power; with normal wiring you can only get
about 2kW if not less, vs about 3 on a European system.

~~~
sdhgaiojfsa
Don't most washing machines plug into a 240V circuit?

~~~
ars
No. Electric dryers do, but not washers.

But that said, it would not be hard to run 240V to washer, so that can't be
the reason.

Do Europeans typically heat water with electricity? That might be the reason -
if you are anyway using electricity, you might as well let the washer do it.

In the US natural gas water heaters are very common (it's more efficient). And
natural gas dryers too.

~~~
rsynnott
No, most water heating in most places in Europe is gas.

Modern front-loading washing machines, especially those managing an A or
better on the EC's energy rating system, tend to use very little water,
though. Depending on the plumbing system, by the time the potential cold water
in the hot water pipes had run through, you might not get very much hot water
at all before you were done, so you'd have to heat electrically anyway.

------
cnst
If you're ever forgotten to dry the laundry for just a day or two, you can
easily notice what your "clean" laundry starts to emanate. I think that's a
simple enough experiment that confirms that "clean" laundry does have LOTS of
bacteria, especially before it gets killed by removing the leftover water.

Speaking of bacteria, another interesting at-home experiment is the one with
tea. Not everyone knows, but tea is highly anti-bacterial. If you leave an old
tea-bag from milk-free green tea lying around with just enough water to keep
it moist for a few days or even a week, the chances of spoilage or mold are
extremely low — the water will evaporate faster. (I sometimes didn't throw old
tea cups from my desk for weeks, and none of them ever developed anything bad,
unless they had something other than the tea, e.g., milk tea will develop mold
pretty fast.)

~~~
taneq
Doesn't matter what a thing is (Edit: Except for a green tea bag, apparently?)
if you leave it around damp for a couple of days it'll start to smell musty
just from airborne bacteria growing on it. If that thing is a warm damp mesh,
it's basically the perfect home for bacteria and will start to smell even if
it was 100% sterile when it came out of the machine.

------
ahjushi
Some readers are asking what's the point since germs are everywhere? I was
actually quite interested in this. As a practitioner of BJJ, a common rule
among schools/dojos is to not allow you to train with dirty gis, and a lot
recommend washing it as soon as possible after sessions. Staph is an ever-
present (though not incredibly common) concern with all the sweat, rolling
around, and close contact. A bit grossed out to read that washing doesn't do
all too much to reduce germs and therefore chances of staph.

~~~
peterwwillis
Staph isn't fun, but you should also be worried about HIV, hepatitis B, and
other bloodborne pathogens.

Not all blood pathogens can be killed by traditional disinfectants, even
bleach. You need to soak the affected article for 10 minutes with a caustic
sterilizer such as Sporicidin or CaviCide (which unlike disinfectants will
kill bacterial spores)

No training center I have ever seen cleans their mats this way. Roll at your
own risk...

~~~
scarmig
There is absolutely 0% chance of contracting HIV through a mat at a martial
arts studio, unless you eviscerate someone with a knife, stab yourself, and
roll around in their blood thirty seconds after the evisceration.

~~~
peterwwillis
Alright, so HIV is a minor risk, but other blood pathogens are easier to
transmit.

------
manigandham
Detergent is a surfactant, designed to lift dirt, food and other stains from
your clothing to be rinsed away with the water. It does absolutely nothing in
terms of bacteria or germs beyond this.

In cases where that's necessary, like hospital linens, a combination of bleach
and hot water is used. Most new washing machines now come with a "sanitize"
setting that will use a built-in water heater to get to boiling temperatures
to clean clothes.

You should also clean your washing machine regularly, using empty cycles and
letting it completely dry out. You can't clean much if the cleaning equipment
itself is dirty.

~~~
pmoriarty
_" Detergent is a surfactant, designed to lift dirt, food and other stains
from your clothing to be rinsed away with the water. It does absolutely
nothing in terms of bacteria or germs beyond this."_

But it should wash away the bacteria, right?

That's why hospitals advise doctors and patients to wash their hands with
soap, isn't it? It's not like they're under any illusion that soap will kill
the bacteria/viruses, but just that it should wash them off.

~~~
manigandham
Yes, you're right, but the physics are different. Soap is different than
laundry detergent and is designed for your relatively non-porous watertight
skin, which when held under a stream of water lets bacteria wash away easily.

Fabric is much more porous and absorbs deeply, along with the trouble of being
enclosed in a sealed container. No matter how much soap and water is used,
it's unlikely to truly wash away the microscopic bacteria trapped within the
fibers.

There are some experimental machines using ultrasound to agitate clothing for
removing stains, germs and even the water itself for instant drying, but
that's not quite production ready.

------
jwilk
> Crystal Wash allows you to do your laundry with NO detergent! You put these
> 2 balls in your washer that contain special "bio ceramics" that change the
> pH of the water and allow dirt and bacteria to be removed naturally. The
> company claims that it is as good as regular detergent, natural, and will
> save you money. To recharge your crystals, you simply set the balls in the
> sun for the afternoon.

Is this a real thing? What's the chemistry behind it?

~~~
facetube
[http://laundry.reviewed.com/features/crystal-wash-tested-
doe...](http://laundry.reviewed.com/features/crystal-wash-tested-does-this-
detergent-alternative-actually-work)

~~~
jwilk
TL;DR:

 _When it comes to stain removal, Crystal Wash does not work any better than
hot water. And, when it comes to some important stains, Crystal Wash often
works far worse than laundry detergent._

------
wil421
Honestly I never expected laundry detergent to actually sanitize anything. I
use it to help remove stains and grime from my clothes during a wash.

Do people expect the laundry to actually sanitize clothes? I would think
having to option to use cold water is a dead giveaway.

Anyone have a link for a dishwasher test similar to this one?

~~~
komali2
Age-old wisdom passed from my grandma to my mom to me is that if poop gets on
something, just throw it in the wash, even with other laundry (unless it's
like A LOT OF POOP), on a hot cycle.

Always seemed to work just fine, now I'm horrified.

~~~
munificent
As someone currently fostering a batch of kittens with stomach bugs... I'm
going to go home and burn all of my clothes now.

~~~
dmckeon
You might want to google feline toxoplasmosis.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis#Parasitology](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis#Parasitology)

~~~
munificent
Yeah, I'm familiar with it, though hopefully not _familiar_ familiar with it.
As far as we know, it's some other kind of coccidia. Either way, there's a
whole lot of washing and hand cleaning going on these days.

------
seiferteric
For towels at least, I do a "bleach load" every few weeks when I start to
notice normal washing is not enough and they smell a bit after only one or two
uses. After I was with bleach, they smell clean and I can use them for like a
week before a normal wash. I try to only use white towels.

------
praptak
European washing machines usually have the "almost boiling" setting: 95
degrees Celsius. I use it for linen and towels. Other types of cloth don't
bear this so well.

~~~
kome
yes, I was wondering the same... that should be enough.

------
Bokanovsky
A few years back I got a new washing machine. After a few weeks of use a light
came on that simply said "Hygiene". I had no idea what this meant so looked in
the manual. It turns out that the washing machine expects to have a 90 degree
C cycle every so often so it kills all the germs inside. This was a feature
that my previous machine didn't have.

------
rl3
Funny enough a clothes line on a sunny day might yield good results.

I wonder if anyone makes a dryer with embedded UV lights, that'd be
interesting.

~~~
Fomite
UV lights are used to kill pathogens in a number of different settings (some
hospitals have super-neat UV robots). The issue is you need _direct_ UV
exposure - a pile of clothing in a dryer would largely shield itself.

------
27182818284
This site is pretty interesting in itself...like even clicking away from the
laundry and checking out their tests of various products like hydrogen
peroxide and such on their counter tops is interesting to look at

~~~
fl0wenol
On the downside the site seems organized in such a way to SEO for Amazon link
referrals and to drum up visibility of a vanity-published book series written
and illustrated by her daughter.

Not that it isn't an accomplishment, but it feels... forced? And not in the
way of someone inexperienced with web stuff and proud of their kid.

It has that auto-generated-from-the-previous-contents-of-the-expired-
registration domain parking website feel.

Pages go on forever, disorganized navigation, boilerplate explanations
duplicated everywhere, very little in the way of charts or tables or
summaries, and most of the links about products go to Amazon.

~~~
Too
That explains the focus on detergents and not temperature?

I was baffled she hardly even mentioned the temperature setting, here it is
well known that you should run your washer with at least 60C if you want to
kill germs.

------
jonnycomputer
I am an advocate for energy efficient appliances, but dang it, things got to
work.

I have a new dishwasher that takes 3 hours to wash, and I struggle to keep red
bacteria from growing all over the place in it. I just did a no-dishes bleach
wash this morning. I've never had this problem before.

------
handbanana
Semi related. But dr bronner's sal suds is quite nice as a laundry detergent -
works better than the regular dr bronners (for laundry). 2 tablespoons is all
it takes, smells great, and it should be fine for most people with sensitive
skin.

------
infinitone
Related to germs, how often do people clean their keyboards/mice/electronic
surfaces in their office. How come tech companies don't have such a service?
Would people be interested in it?

~~~
kardos
The cost to pickup, clean, and return a computer mouse/kb is almost certainly
higher than buying a new mouse/kb

~~~
sushid
That totally depends on your setup. But in my case, I keep a container of 90%
isopropyl alcohol on my desk to wipe away my keyboard, mouse, laptop surface,
desk, etc. regularly. It certainly seems easier than having some service take
it away for a day or even a few hours.

~~~
cimmanom
I just use the Clorox wipes that are always on hand in the office kitchen.

------
abalone
tl;dr Only chlorine bleach and certain washers with a "sanitize" setting
reliably sanitize laundry.

With bleach you have to make sure you add it to the water at the right time
which a malfunctioning dispenser can fail to do (and you might not realize
it), but apart from that it works reliably and even with cold water. A
"sanitize" setting can get similar results but it depends on the machine; her
neighbor's didn't work as well as hers. Unfortunately non-chlorine bleach and
"sanitizer" additives do not reliably sanitize.

The obsessiveness of the post can given the impression that this is someone
who's a germaphobe, but she actually notes that it's not necessary to kill
germs most of the time. She's just motivated to figure out how to effectively
sanitize in the cases where you want to do it, like a household illness or
cloths used to wipe up raw chicken.

~~~
Fomite
Note that even this may not work perfectly.

For example, Clorox recommends using 1/2 cup of Clorox regular bleach in
laundry. That's 8 tablespoons worth. That's on the low end of what the CDC
recommends _per gallon_ of water for disinfecting something that's
contaminated with Norovirus (a viral stomach bug especially common in the
winter).

Norovirus is also pretty heat stable, though the sanitize setting _should_ get
hot enough, though it's not clear if its hot enough for long enough.

------
brianpgordon
This is why I've always been grossed out by shared washing machines. In public
laundromats you're soaking your clothes in water that's been used by the whole
city. People are washing cloth diapers full of baby poop for all you know.

------
overcast
My Samsung washer I bought 10+ years ago has a sanitize setting that releases
steam and silver ions into the wash. Used for Bedding / Sheets / Towel wash
cycles.

------
Kiro
Anyone else get reminded of Oxygen Not Included while reading this thread? A
big part of the game is about germs, temperatures and how to manage heat or
use gases like chlorine to kill germs.

------
kovrik
This is interesting indeed and I appreciate the amount of work done, but
honestly I don't see the point.

Yes, germs are everywhere (surprised?), so what?

First, you can't bleach all you house.

Second, even if you could, why do that? Our body seems to fight nasty stuff
pretty well. If you have some specific condition or disease, then just take
targeted measures.

~~~
nowarninglabel
> I don't see the point.

>If you have some specific condition or disease, then just take targeted
measures

Did you even read the article? That's _exactly_ what she says she is doing.
When there's a stomach flu or other harmful bug going through the household,
she is using targeted washing methods to rid those germs.

~~~
robbrown451
I have a hard time buying the idea that if you are going to catch stomach flu,
it will be from germs from "clean" laundry. Most germs just get washed away,
and you can't completely eliminate germs elsewhere in the environment, so that
seems like one of the least likely vectors.

Sorry, but this just seems like OCD disguised by a bit of science.

~~~
kovrik
Exactly what I meant. Yes, you can bleach all your clothes, but not your whole
house.

Then, if you already have stomach flu, then I don't see how bleaching your
clothes might help here. Take a medicine.

Finally, reading about stomach flu (I'm not a doctor), it doesn't look like a
serious problem: > Most people with the stomach flu require no formal
treatment. The key to a rapid and safe recovery at home (home remedy) is
proper hydration.

If it gets more serious then take a pill or/and go to a doctor.

~~~
Fomite
It's a serious problem for the 70,000 people who get hospitalized for
norovirus every year in the U.S. It's even more serious for the 800 people who
die.

And given there's not "a pill" you can take for it, I don't see how a couple
capfulls of bleach is _more_ problematic.

------
exabrial
Isn't this why you need to dry your clothes on the hottest setting?

------
pooloo1
Granted this is a real life study with a large set of data sampling a small
number of machines, though likely using the same city water. The culprit might
be the city water, or the build up of bacteria in the machines from long term
use of the city water?

~~~
chrischen
She tested the water in the article too and found it free of bacteria.

~~~
pooloo1
Its difficult to find any evidence relating to bacteria in water systems, but
its certainly not 100% disinfected, or free of bacteria.

The problem with washing machines is they are devices that are rather
difficult to disinfect. If you were to take a brand new washer, as in never
had water ran through it, you would probably see a drastic reduction in her
results. However, after a few uses bacteria from the air, cloths, water, and
other sources will eventually end up in the system. If the system is not
vented, then wet spots will exist throughout each washing cycle carrying with
it any bacteria.

With that said, what I am suggesting is the washing machine is the culprit for
bacteria from city water, which is not 100% bacteria free. Add in the fact
that High-Efficiency washers use substantially less water then older units,
and you have a perfect bacterial soup machine. Older machines used more water,
which allowed for further dilution and flushing.

Would the situation be the same if the water was 100% free of bacteria with a
brand new washer that would be dried completely after each use?

~~~
gamblor956
If you had read the article, you would know that (a) the water was free of
bacteria, (b) she tested an old HE washer, an old normal top-loading washer, a
new HE front-loading washer, and a normal front-loading washer and (c) the
problem wasn't the washers.

~~~
kenjackson
And she tested the washer and dryer too.

------
portlander12345
Anyone know a good way to sanitize wool and high-tech fabrics?

------
patsplat
Is sterile laundry clean?

------
cVwEq
TL;DR: Only bleach and/or a high temperature in the dryer kills most of the
bacteria. Various laundry detergents seemed to have no effect. If you are a
norophobe, try to use disposable paper towels, nappies, etc. when you can.

~~~
lostlogin
The article seems to miss UV/direct sunlight. Don’t leave strong colours like
red out too long, but it nukes washing. I’ve had a search but can’t any decent
measures of what sunlight does.

~~~
peterwwillis
Sunlight does nothing. UV radiation, which you are exposed to in the outdoors,
will disrupt a microorganism's DNA, preventing it from reproducing (it doesn't
kill the microorganism, though). There's no guarantee that just leaving
something out in the sun will penetrate enough to be effective.

A glass window filters out almost all of the UVA spectrum, but you can buy a
UVA lamp if you want to disinfect the surface of some item indoors. (DO NOT
USE THIS LAMP ON YOURSELF). As an example, The SteriPEN uses a UVA lamp to
sterilize water, but needs to be on for a sufficient amount of time as the
water is agitated.

 _edit_ I'm an idiot, the SteriPEN uses UV-C, which doesn't even get through
our atmosphere. UV-A and UV-B do get through and do affect organisms. Here's a
paper on the SteriPEN:
[https://www.travelmedicinejournal.com/article/S1477-8939(15)...](https://www.travelmedicinejournal.com/article/S1477-8939\(15\)00174-X/pdf)

------
TylerE
This site is making my skeptic radar ping really hard... especially the
referral links to buy 'essential oils', and all the carefully posed super-mom
photos.

~~~
chrischen
Generally mommy-blogs are sketchy (people pay or give free product for great
reviews), and this is a literal mommy blog, but I read the whole thing and it
seems pretty legit. She even reviewed the ozone cleaning device and revealed
how much of a scam it was.

There’s really no recommendation for a specific brand except the norwex+lysol
combo, which she wasn’t able to explain why it worked.

~~~
TylerE
I wasn't saying I think the information is necessarily bad, just that it's
sort of in the "grain of salt" category, as many sites along these lines are
peddling all kinds of quackery.

~~~
acranox
unless she's peddling bleach and avoiding top-loading HE machines, she didn't
make a very compelling case for anything else....so I think it's fair not to
lump this article into the category of website you're describing.

------
mlindner
Everything has germs... The idea that you can get rid of them is flawed.

~~~
astrodust
Unless you live in a literal bubble you're going to have contagions.

The people exposed to the dirtiest conditions as children are perhaps the
least vulnerable in their adult lives. Excessively clean conditions are a
problem.

~~~
bsder
> Excessively clean conditions are a problem.

Maybe. But for those of us around immuno-compromised people, this kind of data
is good.

Am I going to worry about standard dirty clothes? Meh. Not really.

Am I going to pay more attention when someone is sick and I have to do their
laundry? Yes.

~~~
astrodust
If you're immuno-compromised I'd invest in the right equipment, like perhaps a
more industrial-grade cleaning system. The sort used by hotels can kill
anything.

