
France bans smartphone use in schools - deegles
https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/1/17640476/france-bans-smartphone-cellphones-school-emmanuel-macron
======
Pulcinella
My thoughts as a High School teacher:

I have tried[1] to allow students to have their phones, teach them to use
their phones responsibly, etc. It doesn’t work. They are banned in my class.

I’m just a single teacher with basically no budget. I can’t compete with giant
corporations that spend millions on design, UX, UI, etc.

[1] Also, technically trying to teach kids to use their phones responsibly (or
even generically teaching them how to be responsible adults) isn’t legal state
standard for any of my subjects so I could get yelled at by parents or admin
for doing it and I would have no recourse. It’s unlikely to happen out, but it
is something admin can use if they don’t like you and want to nail you on
something.

~~~
skate22
In college if i was goofing off on my phone during lecture I would likely pay
for it on an exam.

You could try silently writing down which days you saw a student on their
phone & which days you taught the specific subject material.

Then when students get it wrong on a test that you grade you can add a comment
along the lines of "this was covered on day X when you were on your phone"

You would also then have a nice report for parent student meetings, and the
parents can do the enforcing

~~~
isoskeles
This is petty and time-consuming.

~~~
Retric
Being petty and being effective are often related as a teacher.

Cramming for tests has poor long term retention. So, even if it seems like a
final should be enough to demonstrate competency it's generally a poor idea to
upgrade a grade based on a final.

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pwaivers
> “In reality, the ban has already been made. I don’t know a single teacher in
> this country that allows the use of phones in class.”

Not allowing kids to use smartphones during class is a huge difference than
not allowing them at all in school. Cell phones are huge part of people's
lives, whether they like it or not.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Not allowing kids to use smartphones during class is a huge difference than
> not allowing them at all in school_

Learning how to put down their phones while socializing and working will
probably be more valuable to these students, in the long run, than scoring a
few extra minutes of Instagram. It isn't like they can't use their phones once
off campus.

~~~
waterhouse
> Learning how to put down their phones while socializing and working

How many years do kids spend in school? And how long do you think it takes to
learn how to do that? Surely not more than one year.

Arguments of the form "They need to learn how to behave in later life,
therefore they should spend 12 years behaving that way" are wrong. (The
conclusion may be correct, but the reasoning is not.) Given that it takes only
x years to learn that, the question is whether it's worth having them behave
that way in the remaining 12-x years.

------
cube2222
My thought as a University student and only a year ago - high school student:

Phones are a really great learning aid. There are also people who prefer to
listen and participate more actively in lessons instead of writing down
everything written on the whiteboard, with a smartphone they can just take a
picture of the whiteboard.

Smartphones are the smallest thesaurus and translator you can get.

Smartphones can graph or take the derivative of any function you want. Wolfram
alpha is a wonderful application.

Smartphones can quickly give you the life background of any author. Which
helps immensely when analysing literature.

I've never experienced any real problems at school in relation to phones, as
the teacher could just tell you to put it away. They have all the power to
give you an F if you don't abide.

Admittedly, I've been both at a good highschool and a good University, but
banning phones seems like not taking the time to show students how to use
those effectively, and at the same time tries to hide the issue of people just
not being interested in their lessons. And a lack of phone won't help you grab
their interest. They'll switch to talking with each other additionally
disturbing those who do want to pay attention.

~~~
djaychela
AS someone who was a teacher at A-level (age 16-18) in the UK for 17 years
until last year.... I think you may be right in the best case scenario, but my
experience is that the number of pupils who use smartphones (or the wider
internet) as such is vanishingly small. Most people don't have the mental
discipline to use it for the amazing academic tool it could be, and the
bright, shiny things of social media etc fritter away their attention. I don't
think the last argument ('they'll talk anyway') holds much water - it's
possible for pupils to look as if they are working but are actually on a
phone; other forms of interaction are much more easily detected (two or more
kids talking, etc).

I was made redundant from both my (part time) teaching jobs around this time
last year (through no fault of my own or performance, I hasten to add!) and I
have ZERO intention of ever going back - my (anecdotal, of course) experience
of the education landcape and students' interest and behaviour (which I feel
is significantly due to the attention-leeching effects of their constant
exposure to smartphones) led the last 3/4 years to be a horrible experience
that I wouldn't repeat if they paid me double what I was previously earning. I
sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I am greatly concerned about the effect that
such technology (and unmonitored use most of the time) is going to have on
those who have been exposed to it since a very early age (who will be coming
through the education system in the next 10 years or so).

~~~
HIPisTheAnswer
So the smart ones have to suffer for the students that dont want to learn; so
lets just force them to not use tools to learn more efficiently. Hammer the
nail that sticks out. We shall all be equally ignorant. Viva el socialismo!

~~~
rapind
Is it really because of political agenda though, or rather an issue of scale?

From a scale perspective you have basically 2 choices.

1) Treat kids like adults, let them do whatever so long as it doesn't impact
others around them, and if they flunk, so be it.

2) Assume kids don't know best and impose rules you can enforce at scale, with
the end goal hopefully being they learn the subject.

Either option gets you boatloads of complaints and anecdotes, depending on
your perspective.

If you don't want efficient but merciless scaling (perhaps it's not working?),
then we should explore another (new?) approach that lives within or expands
upon (good luck!) the economic constraints. Ultimately we settle on something
that seems "good enough", meeting as much of 1) and 2) without going bankrupt.

------
mercwear
Oh how the times have changed! I graduated from high school over 18 years ago
and ANY cell phone was confiscated and you had to go see the principal to get
it back.

~~~
berbec
I remember many trips to the office to get my pager back

------
Yoric
To be clear: phones have been banned in most French schools for years, but
faculty had no legal authorization to actually touch the phone or look at it
to ensure that it was off.

I haven't read the actual text of the law, but I believe that it gives faculty
the authorization to do just that.

~~~
yardie
I guess this is different for private and religious schools. Our son's
catholic school had no problem confiscating phones, 3DS's, or card games. To
take them home them and the parent would need to pick it up from the
headmaster's office.

~~~
Yoric
Hum. Don't tell your kid, but I don't think that's legal :)

~~~
tk75x
In a private school where the policy is clearly stated and the parents signed
their agreement, this is a perfectly legal.

------
jacknews
Surprised they weren't banned already. How can a teacher droning about valence
levels possibly compete with instagram feeds, and much more so for younger
kids.

Possibly even, aspects of smartphone use should be treated as a potential
health risk, in the same ways as alcohol, tobacco, sugar, etc. (though not all
of those are treated appropriately yet)

~~~
andai
Re: sugar in schools: I am currently trying to break a sugar addiction and
having more trouble than I had coming off several types of addictive drugs.

~~~
malnourish
I've always wondered about this: How much is that a problem with letting go of
sugar, and how much is it _finding_ things that don't have sugar in them?

~~~
berbec
When I quit drinking, (1L vodka/day for years cold turkey), I craved sugar
like nothing else in the world. If removing sugar from your diet is anything
like getting sober, I feel GP's pain.

~~~
andai
This is interesting. I did some quick googling, heavy drinking interferes with
insulin, maintenance of blood sugar levels.

> Frequent heavy drinkers can wipe out their energy storage in a few hours.

[https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/312918.php](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/312918.php)

------
swiley
I'm really not sure how I feel about highschoolers having phones.

On the one hand, not having one seems like it could cause isolation and
practical/logistical problems.

On the other hand, the whole point of most of the smartphone ecosystem is to
manipulate people and these people are especially prone to that.

Highschoolers therefore should be only allowed to use completely free (as in
freedom) community maintained software/OS/hardware devices.

~~~
chpmrc
How about educating kids on the proper use of such powerful tools, including
the concepts of FLOSS (and, in general, how to question and think critically)?
TV is not the problem, having more kids watching Jersey Shore rather than some
good documentaries is.

~~~
Molaxx
It's hard, these apps are built by a huge amount of people to maximize
attention hogging and addiction. Fighting addiction without going cold turkey
is nearly impossible. Awareness usually doesn't help. Further more, it is hard
teaching people to think critically while their faces are stuck to their
phone.

------
weliketocode
Like much of education policy, this seems to help some at the expense of
harming others.

For the intelligent & motivated, there will be unnecessary boredom during
downtime/study hall, potential hatred for learning/school, and other negative
effects.

For the lackluster students, this policy will help some pay attention to
class, learn lessons, and complete work.

In general, however, I'd have to say I'm against it. Any widespread banning of
freedoms or ignorance of new technologies will have outsized negative
consequences.

~~~
Daishiman
> For the intelligent & motivated, there will be unnecessary boredom during
> downtime/study hall, potential hatred for learning/school, and other
> negative effects.

Boredom is a fact of life, and learning to accept it without forcing yourself
to depend on a smartphone is an underrated skill.

> Any widespread banning of freedoms or ignorance of new technologies will
> have outsized negative consequences.

This argument does not really apply completely to children. And it is not
ignorance; they're free to use their phones as they please, after class is
done.

I agree with many posters here: phones have been designed explicitly to rob
you of your attention span. The amount of willpower and self understanding to
deal with that healthily is far more than what most children can muster.

~~~
xexers
> Boredom is a fact of life, and learning to accept it without forcing
> yourself to depend on a smartphone is an underrated skill.

There is a whole book on that topic:

www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06VTZYPTF

------
dawhizkid
I'm honestly very relieved I graduated from high school just before the iPhone
was released (+ early FB days). JR HS + HS were anxiety-inducing enough...I
can't imagine what it's like now.

------
gaius
Good on France. Now all they need to do is mandate OCaml, the great French
programming language and they will own the next 10 years.

This is where the UK blundered in the 80s, the government should have bought a
million Archimedes for the entire public sector and jumpstarted the U.K. tech
industry. We would be 30 years ahead of where we are today.

------
themihai
I would like to see how this is implemented. As far as I know it's been proved
impossible.

------
mnm1
This is how it was here in the US when I was a kid in the 90's with pagers and
cellphones. I don't see what the big deal is. I'm surprised it's taken this
long. I don't know how schools are today, but I would assume they would not
have changed the rules and such things would still be banned in all of high
school and below. If not, maybe parents should ask their schools why they
changed the rules? Assuming of course that they don't want their kids to be on
their cellphone 100% of the time in school, something that's inevitable if
they are allowed to have them.

------
jonbaer
If you can have "airplane mode" you can surely come up with some type of
"school mode" (apps locked and calls in/out to certain specific numbers). Also
nothing in the article re: smartwatches.

~~~
WorkLifeBalance
There is a "school mode": Off.

~~~
dosbre
That may ask for parents unlock.

------
Demoneeri
Phones are a distraction to an institution that refuses to evolve. We don't
work the same way, we don't entertain the same way but for some reasons we
teach the same way as a 100 years ago...

~~~
izacus
Who is this "we"? Are you talking for all hundreds of thousands of schools of
the world? All schools of France? Who are you speaking for?

~~~
Demoneeri
I think you should read again my comment, the "we" doesn't refer to anything
you mentioned.

"We" as people in developed countries who have the luxury of having kids in
high school with smartphone.

Let me rephrase that.

People in developed countries don't work the same way as a 100 years ago.
(farming, manufacturing, etc.)

People in developed countries don't entertain the same way s a 100 years ago.
(social media, TV, etc.)

Almost everything is different. So, why are we trying to teach the same way as
a 100 years ago?

------
noobermin
I will be supportive of this when adults decide to ban cellphones in cars when
in the driver's seat. Studies show driver's even with handless systems are
significantly more likely to get into car crashes.

If you support curtailing young people's cell phone use but don't support
curtailing the use by adults which has proven to lead to traffic fatalities
I'd have to ask you why.

~~~
privacypoller
First regular cell phone use is already banned in a lot of places, and
everywhere has a general distracted driving law on the books. It's pretty
tough to surf facebook or instagram hands-free.

Second, your essentially saying I'll support a ban that students don't like
when drivers stop putting everyone a risk on our roads - why the linkage? You
could support both today, or either independently. This sort of linear-
justification derails a lot of necessary change with artificial preconditions.

------
sxp62000
Smartphones should've been banned from schools 5-6 years ago. It's too late
now. These days kids start tapping smartphone/tablet screens at a really young
age. Taking away there smart devices now is like sending them to school
blindfolded. Doesn't matter if they use smartphones for work or as a
distraction, they're hooked!

------
Bizarro
I find it amusing and not surprising that a country like France would ban it
at the national level.

------
joshuaheard
My daughter's (private) middle school in Washington State bans cellphones
during school, which must remain in lockers. However, it is a paperless
school, so they use laptops during class.

------
paulie_a
My school had a very simple method in dealing with this. The phone got
confiscated until the end of the semester. That was also in the late 90s. It
was effective.

------
alkonaut
Just use one after school. I see zero problems. Allow one to be used at lunch
hour if you feel it’s an infringement not to be able to post a selfie for 8h
straight?

------
Accacin
This seems sensible, when I was at school we had dumb phones and even those
were banned.. And all you could do on those was text message each other!

------
DeBraid
> The measure prohibits the use of tablets, computers, and other internet-
> connected devices as well.

Ban phones, sure, but no computers? Bring back the typewriter?

~~~
lbeziaud
The ban only concerns "students under the age of 15", who typically take notes
on paper. The teacher can also make an exception for pedagogical purpose.

> There are exceptions in place for students with disabilities and for the
> educational use of devices in the classroom and in extra-curricular
> activities

~~~
sp332
Sure but they also use Google and Wikipedia etc.

~~~
bytematic
Under 15? Not really, can use purely offline sources for that generic
material. Good skill as well. Still should have a basic computing class
though, perhaps wrapped into a library class.

~~~
tomjen3
In my experience all printed material is incomplete, obsolete, or one-sided
and frequently all three.

That is not to talk about materials that can't be encoded as text, such as
instructions and how-tos for whatever the French version of shop-class is.

You would propose that students be taught such subjects as the French
revolution, based on what materials are available in the school library? How
can you even ethically do that, when the kids probably can't even get the
complete text of the Tennis court oath?

~~~
izacus
I very much doubt the historical consensus about French revolution changed in
last 1-4 years since last high school history books were updated and printed.

------
trumped
an article that I read about this claimed that turned off phones were
allowed... It is still a step in the right direction though...

------
modells
tl;dr psa for everyone: configure your phone for grayscale, least animation,
vibrate-only and turn off most notifications.

Smartphones are mental cocaine. Look around a city almost anywhere and most
people are hunched over, staring at glowing glass and oblivious to almost
everything... so much so the Dutch are putting crosswalk lights on the ground
to keep people from walking into traffic while they’re getting their fix. It’s
clearly unhealthy as focus, socialization and personal safety suffer.

~~~
Pulcinella
Yes.

This is going to be very pop-pshychology, but I feel like smartphones are
almost gambling-adjacent. Flashing lights and constant, small hits of
dopamine.

~~~
sp332
Gotta ask, what kind of apps do you have on your phone? Flashing lights??

------
ythn
Now if only we could do this in America...

~~~
pandasun
Or maybe you should move to France.

------
pmichalina
Typical statist mindset.

~~~
dang
Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

------
sp332
There's more to life than homework, even when you're in school. If I have my
work done and want to read Slashdot or Ars Technica, or if I'm between classes
and want to check the news, that's really not something that should be banned
at the national level.

~~~
WorkLifeBalance
You don't need to read the news every day, let alone every hour of the day.

It's an addiction to the way news is currently produced.

It's entirely reasonable to spend an evening a week reading up on tech news.
It's not reasonable to have a compulsion to check the news whenever you have a
down minute.

I'm guilty of that myself, I'm currently writing this while a program compiles
but I wouldn't wish this on a developing mind.

Besides, there are other places where news and the internet is available, why
shouldn't places legislate away having that 24/7 on smartphones during school.

~~~
vorpalhex
> You don't need to read the news every day

As someone who votes, you should read the news on a very regular basis.
Ideally that means reading a variety of news sources from a variety of
political leanings.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _As someone who votes, you should read the news on a very regular basis.
> Ideally that means reading a variety of news sources from a variety of
> political leanings._

Why? To poison your mind with lies and misrepresentations of reality? To get
distracted from important issues and spend lots of time following irrelevant
dramas?

Mainstream news has negative informational value these days.

~~~
vorpalhex
Obviously you have the special truth from the only true source, and all news
media is fake except for the ones who hawk gold pills and testosterone
boosters - they know how it really is.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I don't have any special truth from a true source; I just believe that a
typical news story is mostly misinformation intended to drive pageviews
instead of presenting accurate picture of reality. I don't think adding more
false information helps get a more true picture. I mean, you could try to
tease out some true information by "averaging" news from multiple distinct
sources, but that's pretty much a full-time job, and most news are just a
waste of time.

(I mean, seriously. Doesn't everyone here know of Gell-Mann amnesia? Or are
people just afraid to follow it to its logical conclusion?)

------
chpmrc
Typical prohibitionist mindset. Lots of people use X, we don't like X, we ban
X instead of understanding how to properly and moderately integrate X into our
lives. Smartphones and tablets are GREAT learning devices. If we keep blaming
the ineptitude of teachers on devices the quality of education will never
progress.

EDIT: part of the education process is to teach kids how to use and not abuse
these devices and when it's appropriate to use them for entertainment. Telling
them "you can play Fortnite for an hour after you finish this math challenge"
is way better than "you can't play Fornite at school!". I remember having the
same policy applied for when I was in school and we would play Pokemon TCG.
When it was banned we would play in secrecy during class, when they gave up
and allowed us to play during recess we stopped playing during class. It's
just common sense.

~~~
mercwear
You seem to be looking at this through the lens of best case scenario. These
are kids, many if all of them are probably mid puberty. The phones are not
being used to take notes. They are playing fortnight, doing whatever replaced
texting at this point, and generally just ignoring the lesson.

~~~
vorpalhex
Those kids and their newspapers! I bet all they are ever going to do is read
the news and not focus on the lesson. Can't they read that muck-racking when
they get home? It's going to rot their brains! Don't even get me started on
that overtly sexual and disgusting ballroom dancing!

~~~
flying_kangaroo
"Back in your day," were you allowed to just pull out a newspaper in the
middle of class and read it? I find that doubtful.

