

Ask HN:  Do Americans stand a chance on freelance sites? - lss456

I've recently started bidding projects on freelance sites, mostly for web design/programming.  I'm bidding against people who will work for $10/hour or less and do really good work.  Can Americans get freelance jobs on these sites at a decent wage?  Say $20/hour or better?
======
jasonkester
Absolutely. Just make a point of never competing with the $10/hr crowd.

Take a minute and read a few of those cheap bids. Do they inspire confidence?
If you were an employer, would you honestly believe that the person who wrote
that bid is capable of building the thing you're trying to build? Of course
not. They all sound like a bunch of desperate children trying to get away with
something. If you want to take work from them, all you need to do is _not_
sound like a desperate child trying to get away with something.

Take 10 minutes and write a good proposal, with a summary of the project, your
basic approach to solving it, and what you think it would realistically take
to do the job. Quote your full rate, and don't worry even for a second that
your bid is ten times higher than the next highest one. You're sending a
message that "I can actually pull this off", and the best way to do that is to
distance yourself as far as possible from the herd.

If you succeed, the project owner will end up looking at two stacks of bids.
One stack will have 150 flaky looking quotes to do the whole project for $300,
none of which stand out as inspiring much confidence. The other stack will
have a single well written proposal, quoting a bit more than he'd expected to
pay, but clearly from a guy who has done this before and can do it again.

His choice is now: Sift through that rubbish pile and hope I get lucky, or go
with the expensive guy.

That's a pretty good place to be.

~~~
lss456
The project proposals are often incomplete, so my strategy is to make a bid,
and in the comments ask intelligent questions about the project and design to
show I'm serious and experienced. So far no takers on that.

It could be that the project posters aren't serious, or that they're not
impressed by my credentials/portfolio, or maybe my higher price.

Does anyone in the HN community regularly bid on freelance projects and get
them?

~~~
nfriedly
That sounds like a good strategy. I'm not sure which site you're looking at,
but elance and several other sites offer tests that you can take to prove your
skills. I'd say a day or two spent on those is time well spent, and generally
inspires confidence in the buyers.

There are a number of other free or inexpensive things you can do to make
yourself look better: use a sharp looking picture of yourself, have a halfways
decent website (a one page site is OK - leaps and bounds better than nothing),
email @yourdomain.com, toll free numbers are fairly inexpensive, sign up for a
BBB membership, etc.

Also, I can't stress enough that you need to have good clear writing that
touts whatever skills you have. (On your profile and your personal site.)
Don't lie, but do brag a little. If you're not the best at copy-writing, have
a friend look over it.

Also, make sure to mention which city you're in / near, as many buyers prefer
to work with someone local.

It's OK to specify on your personal site that you only accept work through
[XYZ freelance site].

A blog on your site is a bit more work, but can pay off in the long run. You
won't get a lot of business directly through the blog, but it will help boost
your google rankings which _will_ bring in business. Keep it strictly limited
to informative articles on topics you're interested in working on, and try to
post regularly - at least once a week to get started.

Lastly, you want some referrals from me, leave your info here:
[http://nfriedly.com/techblog/2010/12/calling-all-avaiable-
we...](http://nfriedly.com/techblog/2010/12/calling-all-avaiable-web-
designers-developers/)

Oh, and what everybody else has said: raise your rates. Start at $45/hr and
raise it by $5 every few months.

------
hadtocomment
I could write a book on my experience going from $12/hr to $85/hr on odesk.
It's been quite an experience.

I get plenty of invitations for projects at a rate slightly above $60/hr. I
haven't bid on a project in many months, and I even hid my profile for a while
when things got too busy at my day job.

There are a few things you need to do to be successful on odesk. I've never
done a project on another site, so I don't know if these tips translate, but
some of them should.

1) Get some feedback as soon as possible. Find a small project to get your
feet wet and bid a low rate to get the job.

2) Answer requests from the prospective client as soon as possible.

3) Use your best grammar. I find it helps me to speak to the prospective
client on the phone. YMMV.

4) When you apply to a project, read the project and ask questions. Don't just
make some generic cover letter and spam the clients.

5) When you apply to the project, if you are particularly interested in the
project, have past experience with the project, or have some interesting piece
of information to share with the client, make that clear. It helps you stand
out.

6) Take the English test on odesk and do well on it.

7) Fill out your profile. Put relevant projects (even those you didn't do on
odesk) in your portfolio. Provide links to your work.

8) Do good work. Make your clients happy. Get good feedback.

9) Remember that price is a signal. Many US clients will assume that you must
be good to charge such a high rate.

I used to post on HN as briancooley, but I added one too many zeros to my
noproc setting and put myself on about a 694-day hiatus instead of a 69.4-day
hiatus. _oops_ Can't say that I miss posting much, but I thought I would offer
some suggestions. At least for mobile development, the market seems crazy to
me.

~~~
swombat
You know, you could probably just get your noprocrast setting reset if you
sent an email to the right person... _cough_

Why would you go on a 70-day hiatus from HN, though?

~~~
hadtocomment
Yeah, I know I could probably send an email, but I have chosen not to do that.

As for reasoning, it was just a personal experiment to see how much karma
influenced my decision to post. Apparently it was a lot because this is the
first time I jumped the hurdle of creating an account to comment in 93 days,
even though there were times I felt the urge to comment.

I also discovered that I get more out of HN because I'm no longer formulating
possible comments when I read articles or other user comments.

It was a useful lesson, and I'm undecided whether I want to go back.

~~~
swombat
To be fair, it's not clear that that's because of Karma - could be because of
convenience... but anyway, fair point! Enjoy :-)

------
patio11
While folks (particular Jason) are giving you excellent advice, can I take
this from another angle? A $20 bill rate does not mean you are getting $20 per
hour. Not even close. You have to factor in all the non-billable parts of
consulting, like writing proposals, educating these clients that $10/hr
providers will likely not lead to project success, and handholding them
through the project because they'll likely need lots of it. They're
disproportionately likely to be pathological clients because they are
attempting to do business in a place which might as well be
marketforlemons.com to save a few hundred bucks. It took me years to adjust to
this, but it is true: _a few hundred bucks is not a lot of money_.

Can I _strongly_ suggest you make a small investment in improving your
business skills, get clients in the old- or new-fashioned ways without a
marketplace site, and laugh in the general direction of a $20 bill rate? Also,
don't call yourself a freelance programmer. You solve problems for businesses.
Many businesses have problems such that there is no number they will not pay
to get them resolved.

~~~
rmanocha
I'm not sure if you've done this in the past, but would you mind explaining
how to get clients in the "old - or new-fashioned ways without a marketplace
site"?

~~~
swombat
You network. You build relationships. You go to meetups and meet interesting
people, swap connections, swap leads. You get strong introductions, you follow
up, you build client relationships. They like you, they trust you, they want
to do business with you, and they're willing to pay 4 or 5 figure sums for the
privilege because you sell them more than work: you sell them peace of mind.

[http://swombat.com/2011/2/24/paulina-sygulska-how-to-
network...](http://swombat.com/2011/2/24/paulina-sygulska-how-to-network-
effectively) is a great article on how to network.

[http://swombat.com/2011/2/25/kevin-mcdonagh-how-to-
attend-a-...](http://swombat.com/2011/2/25/kevin-mcdonagh-how-to-attend-a-
conference) also proposes an approach to get leads from conferences (and
despite the apparent machine-gun methodology, I'd like to qualify this article
by saying that Kevin is an incredibly chilled out, laid back, friendly kind of
guy).

~~~
patio11
All of the above, plus building an online presence in your area of choice. It
is both a good way to make weak ties that turn into strong ties, and a good
way for folks to find you when you're not actively networking.

Blogging and community participation (HN, etc) is my best source of consulting
leads next to personal recommendations (and it is often a friendcatcher which
caught the person doing the recommending).

------
sivers
I hire on Elance and ODesk a lot, and almost ignore price. I've never hired
the cheapest person.

Instead, put your attention on getting good ratings from past clients. That
makes all the difference in the world.

Even consider using their platform when doing work for friends or existing
clients. Do it through the site, letting them take their cut, because it's
worth it for getting a good strong history of past-projects there.

I'm working with an animator on Elance, and even though we've done 5 projects
together, have 10 more upcoming, and do all our communication directly by
Skype, he still wants me to keep all project posting & payments through
Elance. It's good for both of us. (After each project I give him 5-star
ratings, and he does the same for me as an employer.)

------
saluki
Yes.

In the beginning you might have to bid at a lower hourly rate so you can get a
few projects under your belt and good reviews.

Once you have established good reviews and show some experience on the site
start bidding at your target hourly rate. You may not get as many projects as
the $10/hr crowd but you'll be working at your target hourly rate.

Tips:

Your reviews are golden, don't take on too much work or drag your feet on a
project, as good reviews are your ticket to more work.

Read the jobs carefully, get a feel for the vibe from the client. If you get a
feeling they might not be good to work for during the bidding, messaging or
emailing do not accept the work. You don't want to work with bad clients that
are unreasonable and will be a pain to work with plus could give you a
negative review.

Write a custom proposal for each project to show them you're not just using a
standard blurb.

Copy and paste their requirements into you bid then go through them line by
line rewriting them as part of the scope of work adding any suggestions you
can add from your experience.

Link to any similar projects you have completed.

If it's a simple task link to a quick mock up or proof of concept so they can
see you're capable of the task.

Link to a portfolio.

List your years of experiences and services you can provide so they have an
idea of your capabilities.

If you aren't hungry for work bid only on projects that match your target
hourly rate.

If you are hungry for work, lower your target hourly rate for a while.

Market yourself via family and friends, mention that you are a freelancer if
they know anyone who needs a website/programming.

Keep learning new things and expanding your capabilities. As your skills
improve your profits will as well. You'll complete simple tasks more quickly
and more complicated work pays more.

Good luck.

------
tallshaun
I will answer this from an employers perspective. I myself have managed teams
of developers, and have also hired individual developers off free lance sites.
(as well as graphic designers and writers).

To most employers, the actual rate you charge is not that important. The basic
reason is that we view our time as the most valuable constraint on a project.
That is, we are far more likely to pay more, if it assures us that it is going
to save us time in the long run.

Time can be taken up by having to re-do a project, poor communication,
misunderstood requirements, etc etc.

The most important thing you can do (as many below have said), is to read the
job description I have posted, and provide a customized proposal to it. I am
not asking for a detailed in depth proposal, but I would like to see that you
have put in say 20 minutes or so of work on it.

The comment here, <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2619472> is also
applicable. My description of the job is likely not going to be exhaustively
complete. Ask me one or two questions about the job.

Better yet, if i've missed a very important part of the description, ask the
question, but then make an assumption and say, "if I assume this is the task,
then I would do y, and my timeline would be x"

Also, use bullets in your reply to me, I'm going to be scanning a ton of
applicants, and bullet points help me quickly read through your application.

Hope that helps.

------
AretNCarlsen
OP: > I'm bidding against people who will work for $10/hour or less and do
really good work.

Repeated response: > No, you aren't. No programmer does good work for $10/hour
or less.

The implication: We are obviously worth more than $10/hour, and the problem is
just that employers don't know that or can't find us.

This is a dangerous economic oversimplification. It implies that you just need
to keep doing the same thing, but advertise better. That is not the problem
here.

Yes, the work you do produces a great deal of actual wealth for your
employers, more wealth than is generated by the middle manager they pay
$50/hour. Similarly, fresh water is much more valuable to me than an iPhone,
yet I can buy hundreds of gallons of water for the price of an iPhone.

We have had several decades during which the vast majority of the worldwide
supply of programming talent was excluded from the hiring pool. Even within
the U.S., a programmer located in certain states and cities has been able to
command a higher wage on that basis. When you have been the beneficiary of
artificial scarcity and consequential producer surplus
[<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_surplus>], it is easy to proudly and
mistakenly relate your economic value with your actual value.

Don't get depressed when you see your work performed for $10/hour. You have
not grown less talented or even less unique than you used to be; you had
simply overestimated your uniqueness based on confounded experimental data.
The great news is that in the meantime there has been someone exactly like
you, someone who happened to exist in a different geography, whose wage has
now gone _up_ to $10/hour.

The only fix is niche work. Make yourself more unique. This won't work as well
as it used to, since non-Americans can learn new skills too, but that is how
capitalism works.

------
maxklein
I used to earn a living on rentacoder back in the day. Price is not important
- you just need to be really good in your niche, don't appear arrogant (many
high price devs make this mistake), and completely understand his problem,
then break it down into smaller components for him.

People will pay a good premium if they are reasonably certain their project
will be completed fast and with high quality.

------
Dove
_I'm bidding against people who will work for $10/hour or less and do really
good work._

I rather doubt that. Nobody does _really_ good work at that rate, not in this
field. Cheap programmers do legendarily shoddy work on projects of any scale,
and the employers worth working for know that.

Offer great work at a fair wage, and you'll be fine.

To paraphrase Howard Taylor, if you want to succeed as a freelancer, you need
to be (A) the very _best_ at what you do, (B) a great communicator, and (C)
everyone's favorite person to work with. And I'd add that you need to be able
to prove to a prospective employer that you are those things.

My strategy starting out has been to communicate _relentlessly_ and deliver
_spectacularly_. Really understand a client's needs and ask a lot of questions
(and make a lot of comments) about a project before even putting in a bid. Do
tiny $50 trial contracts _well_ and _quickly_ , and then offer to finish the
job at a fair price. Always respond to messages the same day. Always get
working software into the customer's hands as fast as possible, and polish the
living daylights out of it jointly.

If you're awesome and people know it, nobody will want to hire the $10/hr
crowd when they could get you.

------
dman
Do BMW's stand a chance in the US automotive landscape? Will Whole Foods
survive the Walmart onslaught? - Price is just one of the dimensions on which
to stand out in a market, there are buyers who look beyond the price.

------
cstrouse
So far elance.com has gotten me decent wages that an American would expect;
however, freelancer.com and vworker.com have yielded nothing but $5/hr crap
jobs and projects where the scope creep was so bad I ended up making like
$2/hr by the end. Also, freelanceswitch seems to be better because you have to
pay $7/mo to bid on jobs and most of the $5/hr crowd won't do that.

------
bendmorris
For a developer like you, there is a set of good jobs that you can get with
some effort, and a vast set of jobs that you will never get, no matter what
you do. Some jobs are either not serious about hiring or don't care about
quality and are actively seeking the lowest price. They will be disappointed
and their project will probably never be finished the way they want it. You
don't want to work with these people, and you don't want to compete down to an
unreasonable wage unless you're just starting out.

There is, however, a smaller set of jobs which you are qualified for based on
your unique skillset and which will recognize quality and ignore price. If you
can convince these employers that you are the best for the job, you can get
some decent, well-paying work.

The problem is, with ubiquitous "race to the bottom" low bids on nearly every
project (many of them automatically generated and of extremely poor quality)
it's really hard to tell the difference between the two. Just apply broadly
and don't set your heart on any one project - you can't know what the person
behind it is really like, or if you ever really had a shot.

------
Tom77
It's tough and your portfolio should demonstrate your skill for your premium
price/rate. I'd love to work with more North American freelancers, but they
just don't bid on jobs. I have to go through profiles and invite them, but
even then I rarely get a response.

So yes, apply, show interest through your initial contact, and have a kick-ass
portfolio. You'll get work.

------
hippich
Originally from third-world country, I went from $8/hr to $50/hr in less then
a year on oDesk. I quit it since I work on h-1b visa now in USA, but once I
get greencard, plan to get back to freelancing, if no other projects will
popup in my head.

------
ivanhoe
Well, from this point of view, being an American seems to be better than being
an European at the moment. I'm from Serbia, which is I believe the country
with the lowest avg. income in this part of the Europe (and much lower than EU
countries), and (ok, being senior dev) I wouldn't bid under $20, just wouldn't
make sense. And I do get enough work to keep me busy. So, what I meant to say,
none of us can compete with these $5/h guys prise-wise, but (if you are good)
there's more than enough work for everybody, just find your price niche and
compete there, don't waste time on low bids.

------
venturebros
I have given up on oDesk it seems to be impossible now to find anything that
pays above $50.

I have shifted my attention to Elance. Quality work,good pay, and more
employees wanting Americans. Just insanely competitive.

I got my first bid accepted after shelling out an extra $10 after using my
first 10 connects. I made the money back but even with a good rating it is
still difficult.

------
nfriedly
I quit taking on much freelance work and bumped my elance.com rate up to
$120/hour. I still get about one request for proposal each month.

------
bbg
I'm still trying to make a go of it on vworker, but have no ratings. However,
this guy seems to be successful with it: [http://tbbuck.com/winning-your-
first-freelance-job-on-vworke...](http://tbbuck.com/winning-your-first-
freelance-job-on-vworker-how-i-got-started/)

------
qeorge
I'm on the other end (hire folks remotely). New folks are impossible to hire
because there's no way to judge how much you do in an hour.

If people have past projects I can see: "they built X app for Y price." But if
you're new, all I see is an hourly rate, which means nothing.

You can solve this 2 ways

1) lower your rate so low that _someone_ hires you, and build up your
experience so you can charge more

2) show examples of your work, with prices. "I built this. If you wanted a
site just like this, it would cost you $XXXX (XX hours)".

No one does the latter. I wish they would.

------
erangalp
It's not the hourly rate, it's the total cost and quality delivered. Try
bidding on fixed priced projects - while you'll still likely to submit higher
bids, the difference is not as big as the hourly rate - since an experienced
programmer can do more in less time.

Represent yourself with class and show a portfolio of quality work. Not
everyone goes for the lowest bidder, and you definitely want the clients that
are looking for quality. Do you really want to work for someone who expects
you to work for 12$ / hour?

------
ashitvora
If you are very new to the industry, you might face some difficulty initially
since people are not sure if its worth paying you more when there are others
who are ready to do same work at cheaper rate.

But if you have good portfolio, audience, contacts, you won't face much
problem.

If somebody is cheaper, there's a reason why they are cheaper. If you are good
at what you are doing, people will be happy to pay you what you are worth.

Good Luck :)

------
alain94040
I don't think you can compete on price, which is why you should compete on
_quality_.

Just as an example, I have seen some bids request that the person speak
fluently English. Obviously, the person posting the project has been bitten in
the past with communication issues with their outsourced resource. That's one
of your strengths.

How professional and thoughtful are your answers? They'd better stand out if
you want to justify charging more.

------
gregpilling
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is culture. I have hired people on
elance and sometimes the simplest things trip you up because of cultural
differences. There are even significant cultural difference between California
and Louisiana, let alone between the US and a another country overseas.

------
nkhanna
This is correct. In my experience, the 10-20$/hr guys are usually programmers
who have just started and are good only for some sideline stuff. The moment
you engage with them with a sizable work, either the rate goes up or they back
off.

------
Dilpil
The higher your bid the better. Your $100 an hour rate is your premium
branding.

------
gmazzotti
when i hire freelancers i consider 10/hour quotes only for very easy jobs if
not i simply delete them and pay attention to higher bids. of course a higher
bid is on of the variables i look for, but a so cheap quote make me think that
im payin or for a bad coder or a good one that will make my proyect with out
really paying attention to it and without me spending a lot of time explaining
everything once and again and again he will do a bad work, i don't need any of
those situations so i simply delete those quotes

------
danrod
On mark! Past performance is a key indicator for future behavior ie product
and service.

------
coldarchon
my minimum is at 50€/h because people hired those for 10 or 5€/h which failed
or stopped calling back ..

------
citricsquid
If you're not in a position to market your skills outside of freelance sites
or at a higher cost, your skills probably aren't worth over $10/hour.

~~~
prodigal_erik
Those are completely separate skillsets which don't even contribute to each
other. I make six figures full-time from an employer who's very eager to keep
me onboard, but I know almost nothing about marketing myself freelance. I've
only worked 1099 once, at the request of a company who licensed code from a
failed startup I was part of.

