
California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste - sahin-boydas
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cisco-lawsuit/california-accuses-cisco-of-job-discrimination-based-on-indian-employees-caste-idUSKBN2423YE
======
dang
All: please note that there are more comments on page 2:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083&p=2](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083&p=2).

(That's what the 'More' links at the bottom of large threads point to)

------
walt0
I live and work in India and I would like to throw more light on this. Me and
my friends like to joke around that you will never get your dues, either pay
raise or promotions unless you have the last names jain, gupta, sharma, verma.

I had a guy on my team who was very capable but did not have the right last
name, he was being harassed for promotions for 4-5 years. On the other hand
the manager class was entirely "jain, gupta, sharma, verma". I know of a
specific case where the same manager had one of his relatives transferred from
another branch and then promoted to manager on a different team in the same
branch. This was all very hush-hush, I know of it because I overheard them
talking about it. This is not some local tidbit software company, this is a
company you HAVE heard about.

But it is not just caste based discrimination. There's also linguistic and
region based discrimination because there is a lot of regional and linguistic
diversity in India. If you travel a few hundred miles in any direction, the
language and culture completely change. I have seen teams being formed around
states and languages, and they will not let anyone else come into their in
group. I have seen teams with extreme left ideologies that will not let anyone
else in their team.

I don't believe dalits are any different, they also engange in these practices
when they can and I know about people who have suffered from that situation as
well.

Everyone's naked in this bath house.

~~~
scandox
Curious what extreme left ideology looks like in India.

~~~
entha_saava
You can go to r/india to see that. That sub is peak irrational leftism.

And people generalizing Brahmins and other upper castes as oppressors are not
exactly right. For many of us who are Brahmin by caste but have a rural,
agriculture etc.. background otherwise, we have not witnessed such extreme
casteism.

Disclaimer: Brahmin by caste / surname but my community is traditionally
agriculturist.

~~~
anandrm
Lets put it this way , you guys had the privilege. AFAIK atleast 2 generations
ahead with the reading and writing compared to other communites. Please dnt
pick exceptions here. The community had a headstart privilege access to
reading and writing. If you look at the data of professors here in US and the
first generation of guys in US doing higher studies you know. So you have a
community base here . Its the same with IITs and reputed educations
institutions .

~~~
shripadk
> AFAIK atleast 2 generations ahead with the reading and writing compared to
> other communites

Can you explain then why Dr. Ambedkar asked for only 10 years of caste-based
reservations and to be done with it after that? Did he not know of this
statistic when he asked for the reservation to be scrapped after 10 years:
[https://www.deccanchronicle.com/opinion/columnists/290917/ti...](https://www.deccanchronicle.com/opinion/columnists/290917/time-
to-replace-or-end-reservations.html) ?

We continued to have caste-based reservation for 70+ years. That is almost 3
generations. We are well into the 4th generation. This is more than sufficient
time for uplifting lower castes. And let us not forget that access to
education and industry has improved exponentially in this period while it
wasn't available previously.

The time has now come to move away from caste-based reservations to income
based reservations. For how long will we keep enforcing caste in everything?
Then the upper castes will also enforce undeclared caste based reservations in
private sector because they did not get the same treatment in Government
sector. Isn't it? This will just end up being a never ending process of one
trying to out-do the other. You now have political parties specifically
oriented around Dalit issues like the Bahujan Samajwadi Party. Do you have a
political party specifically oriented around Brahmin issues? Nope. This shows
that the system has empowered the lower castes well enough already! So we can
now move to empowering the actual downtrodden in society: no matter what
caste, creed or religion they belong to!

~~~
anandrm
This is 2020 ,we are still talking about upper caste management suppressing
lower caste in USA. If there has been 70+ years of equality driving measures
taken , then this news shouldnt be there.I hope you understand how authority
works in India, the Upper caste is already in decision making positions when
this movement started 70 years back, i can very well imagine what would have
happened. I m not supporting reservations , but there is always a benefit of
doubt thats for the suppressed ones.

~~~
shripadk
Here let me use your own argument and just replace upper and lower caste with
caste based reservations instead of upper caste management in private
organizations. This is what I get:

"This is 2020, we are still talking about caste based reservations suppressing
upper castes in India. If there has been 70+ years of equality driving
measures taken, then this news shouldn't be there. I hope you understand how
authority works in India, the lower caste is already in decision making
positions now that the caste based reservation has been around for 70 years, i
very well know how it happened. I am not supporting upper caste dominance in
private sector, but there is always a benefit of doubt thats for the
suppressed ones."

You see how easily I can make the same point for upper castes? How can you
justify 50% reservation for lower castes for 70+ years? You can't. You can't
even say that there is underrepresentation in our Parliament because there is
adequate representation. We have reserved constituencies in which only lower
castes can participate. They can participate in the unreserved constituencies
too. Heck even the remaining 50% unreserved seats can be contested by lower
castes by just choosing to not use their caste certificates. There are so many
Adivasi parties and political organizations. There isn't even one for
Brahmins. I am not saying this is bad. I am saying that this is the progress
we have already achieved in 70+ years. We have a stringent SC/ST act which
will jail people without prima facie evidence. Are you not bothered about the
Fundamental Rights to Equality as promised under the Constitution of India? If
everyone is equal then why this special treatment for 70+ years? I can
understand one needs uplifting and for that a reasonable amount of time is
required. But 70+ years? That is not justifiable by any means.

Just to put it in perspective: Our Honorable Prime Minister of India is from
OBC (Other Backward Class). Our Honorable President of India is a Dalit. So
no, our Country has progressed a lot and lower castes are actually holding
positions of power more so than ever before. Exceptions cannot become the
norm. But has the system become obsolete now? I believe it has! You can't keep
the system going on and on for a few exceptional cases. Then it can have
negative consequences down the road! The system has to evolve and meet
challenges that we are all facing currently and not keep harking back to the
past. Ultimately Caste System needs to be rooted out of our country. We can't
do that if we keep the reservation system in the present state! We need to
change it to income based reservation so that once you have obtained it and
gotten a leg up you don't utilize that system anymore and let others who
really need it take its benefits.

------
rutherblood
I've heard this argument alot. To people saying caste isn't that big of an
issue in contemporary india, esp in the urban areas: let's ask an Indian
parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is
of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and
easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question.

The things is inter-caste marriage is the best way for caste to be eliminated,
and since that is hardly happening, doubt it'll go away anytime soon. Hell,
Indians on matrimonials openly advertise theirs and ask for partners of
specific caste.

[https://www.scroll.in/article/897802/how-same-caste-
marriage...](https://www.scroll.in/article/897802/how-same-caste-marriages-
persisted-for-thousands-of-years-in-india-and-are-still-going-strong)

~~~
wobbly_bush
> let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry
> someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best
> litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the
> contemporary caste question.

This test will fail because it doesn't account for what truly is caste in
people's minds. Even among those who do not want to discriminate, different
castes represent different daily cultures, traditions and even languages. So
the question becomes on if they are comfortable with someone from a different
culture - and that answer is almost always no.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Is that just an Indian thing? Because in my family, here in Rural Iowa, the
in-laws include a woman from New Delhi, Valencia Spain, Baguio Philippines,
2nd generation Elba Italy, Korea. That doesn't count the New Englanders and
Appalachians (which is a whole different thing than Iowan).

I mention it because, a spouse of a different culture can be a wonderful
thing. Language, food, daily culture are a constant source of enjoyment and
growth.

~~~
wobbly_bush
I agree with you but for a country which has seen more than 1000 years of
conflict from "outside cultures" (the Mughals, the British, etc.), the
instinct to preserve one's own culture is very strong. That is why you see
Hinduism still surviving whereas in other parts of the world other local
religions (and cultures) were destroyed. Recently with more education,
globalization, emigration and with the internet things have started to change
slowly.

~~~
oliTwist23
This unfortunately is very true. Hope things change as soon as possible for my
kids. Intercase marriages are the solution to this problem, unfortunately is
very low.

------
paloaltokid
I'm a very white guy living in California and I often get the impression that
caste is something that Indian folks living here are aware of amongst each
other, but they don't really discuss it with white people.

On some level it feels to me like it's something Indian folks don't share
because they feel it would be misunderstood (which makes a lot of sense). Or
maybe it's a kind of "not airing out the laundry in public."

I would love feedback on this. Thanks.

~~~
randomguy2379
I am someone who was born a hindu dalit and I am so ashamed of sharing that
identity of mine that I am posting anonymously.

Hindus believe that humans are like dogs and they have a breed. So a person
who is born in a higher caste is of a better breed than a person born in a
lower caste. Numerous genetic studies have found no significant difference
amongst Indian castes. The moment an upper caste person realizes that you are
a lower caste, you will be made fun of and ridiculed. Caste is also tied to
your last name, so when a Hindu person says his full name he is telling his
First name and his Caste. Which is why brahmins will be the first ones in a
group to say their full name, while dalits will only meekly say their first
name. The entire religion and caste system was built to make people feel
shameful of their last name. In fact, some last names of lower castes are
commonly used as abuses by upper caste.

It is the worst form of discrimination known to man and it's horrible how
hindu society openly supports and promotes it. While slavery lasted only for a
couple of hundred years, caste system has been going on for millennia. Dalit
atrocities are common in India even today and everyday 10s of lower castes
dalits are raped, killed , tortured and humiliated just because they were born
a lower caste Hindu. Upper caste hindu managers openly look down on lower
caste hindus, even in the US , and will discriminate against them. Caste shame
is also inbuilt in a lot of Dalit hindus and they themselves feel embarrassed
while even saying their full name.

One of the best things I did after coming to this country was to convert to
christianity and a few of my dalit hindu friends have done too. Upper caste
hindus have no problem seeing a converted christian as their equal, but they
would still regard a hindu dalit as inferior. Hinduism has a huge conversion
problem even in India, and it is the fastest shrinking religion in the world.

~~~
tomcam
Easy for me to say, but if I were you, assuming you’re in the USA, I’d own the
hell out of it. To be ashamed of it here is to give power needlessly to whole
populations who do not own you. And the States love an underdog.

This is the country where “Yankee Doodle” started out as an anti-American
insult by the Brits and ended up being one of the nation’s favorite songs. The
nation that used the N-word seriously until around 1965, then by 1975 it had
been completely co-opted by people like Richard Prior, and later hip-hop
artists. Just so you know, I am married to someone whose parents forbade her
to go out with me because of my race. Before I married her another girlfriend
stopped dating me because I wasn’t black. Before that, another girlfriend’s
parents tried to stop her relationship with me because I wasn’t Jewish. Now
that I have a passel of mixed-race kids... guess who makes endless racial
jokes? All of us. It drives our friends crazy.

I’d have a DALIT license plate. I’d have a line of DALIT T-shirts. I’d shove
it right in people’s faces for the sheer enjoyment of it. I would totally kill
it with the DALIT merch.

My heart goes out to you, and my best to you and yours. What a nightmare.

~~~
dnautics
I have seen a DALIT license plate in the bay area. It was on an Audi A4, I
think. Anyways a luxury car.

~~~
naruvimama
I can with fair certainity say that he/she may have earned the wealth to
afford one by promoting caste based christian evangelism or politics.

Caste based conflicts are the highest among the Christians, because the church
was way too successful in exploiting social divisions, just like they did
elsewhere in the world like Rwanda.

Caste is a poisson, but when it is bread and butter for some people they would
like nothing better than to keep it alive.

------
wonderwonder
"At Cisco, the unnamed employee reported Iyer to human resources in November
2016 for outing him as a Dalit to colleagues. Iyer allegedly retaliated, but
Cisco determined caste discrimination was not illegal and issues continued
through 2018, the lawsuit states."

If this is accurate, that's pretty messed up. If a private company, especially
one of Cisco's stature knew of any form of harassment and then decided that
this type of harassment is fine because its not technically illegal they
should be punished. Harassment at work for any reason is never ok, work should
be a space where you are judged on your productivity level and attitude, not
on the place of birth of your ancestors.

~~~
foobar_
From what a friend has said to me, the situation is fairly similar to the
discrimination people of colour face (slavery, jim crow, segregation, economic
mobility, interracial marriage, lynchings, human right violations) and what
native americans face (land rights, economic mobility, cultural assimilation
and destruction) ... except this is in the asian context with added
peculiarities. The distinction between the classes is made by the last name
and skin colour like how you would discriminate between italian, spanish,
irish, german, danish ... on the basis of their name as people look similiar
despite all of them being clubbed under "white" and "christian".

On paper discrimination shouldn't happen but IRL it does everywhere.

------
castevictim
Readers who are not from Indian subcontinent may find this difficult to
understand or beleive, let me throw some context.

Indian caste system is probably the longest running abuse,racism, human rights
violation in the human history. Even,now in some parts of the country people
from lowest caste are made to carry human waste on their head[0].

After independence,thanks to rights offered by constitution & reservation by
governments to repent the sins; many from lower caste were able to get
educated.

Inequality is often perpertraited by people at the top of the food chain and
in the case of caste system its been Brahmins and those acknowledged by them.
Brahmin patriarchy is the deep state in India, do a quick search about top
CEOs in India, Majority of Company auditors are Brahmins so the company/tax
laws are often dictated by them (I just stated one example of brahmin
patriarchy w.r.t context of the article).

Ask the lower caste team members of any large IT company in India e.g. TCS,
Infosys led by a Brahmin manager(who is not an atheist); you'll hear about
discrimination they face.

At the same time, Ex.Brahmins (Brahmins who have denounced their affiliation
to caste system) have been one of the top voices in support of human rights &
equality this includes freedom fighters, newspaper publishers, several leading
luminaries, economists, Nobel laureates and top scientists who have left India
for good.

[0][https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/25/india-caste-forced-
clean...](https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/25/india-caste-forced-clean-human-
waste)

~~~
throwaway781341
You are painting only one sided picture and that's obvious from username you
have chosen.

India has 1bn+ people, you can't generalize this. There are bunch of Brahmin
people at higher level who actively work to uplift others and they do this
without being atheist. There are 12 types of beliefs defined in Indian
spirituality, it's not binary as in atheist vs believer.

Also, food for thought - are all Brahmins in India are still privileged to
earn status of CEOs and managers? The amount of caste based reservation in
education to jobs - it's hard for Brahmins to get a seat in college or take a
job nowadays, still if these people are on top - do you think it's only some
privilege? You are wrong here.

Please provide both the sides on platforms like HN or some brahmins in india
will have to have their own version of BLM - "Brahmin Lives Matter"

~~~
sumedh
> India has 1bn+ people, you can't generalize this.

Have you seen the matrimonial ads in India?

Why am I getting a feeling that you are a Brahmin and you are not happy that
people from lower castes have their own quotas in govt jobs/education.

~~~
throwaway781341
may be the reason why you are getting this feeling is that racist instinct.

and no, I'm not unhappy for the said reason. If you read my comment properly,
I was pointing out the fact that mentioning only one side of the story,
because one fell victim to the caste system, on a forum like HN is wrong as it
provides very different picture. Most of the people reading this have no clue
what it's like. Be responsible.

~~~
sumedh
Why are you using a throwaway account, are you ashamed to admit that upper
castes in India have subjugated lower castes or are you just ashamed that
everyone else on HN now knows about India's dirty laundry?

Shame is good, it will help you change.

~~~
throwaway781341
thanks

------
idontcare634
As a former employee of Cisco and having been in the Silicon Valley for 10+
years, I can say that I have witnessed extreme casteism and nepotism in Cisco.
There was a saying I heard a few years back that one of the criteria to get
hired in one of the Cisco guaranteed acquisition spinoffs is that you wear a
thread (called Janeu - worn by high caste Hindus over their shoulder and
hidden inside shirt). If there is one company in the valley where HR is
totally absent and managers form a clique to abuse employees, it is Cisco. It
is polluting the entire valley with its casteism and also by exporting its
incompetent managers to other companies.

~~~
saagarjha
As far as I understand, you’re supposed to wear that thread in a way that
would keep it hidden when wearing normal work attire. If that’s so, how would
others know you had one? Would you secretly flash them at each other like a
gang symbol?

~~~
sumedh
I have seen some Indians when they are peeing they will first pull the thread
over their ears and then pee, after they wash their hands they will put back
the thread under their shirt.

~~~
throwaway781341
that thread is bit long to carry and comes in between when you sit to take a
dump in Indian style (squatting style). Hence it's suggested to put it on left
ear to keep it up.

------
thickice
I am an Indian and have been in US for many years. There is one thing I have
noticed among brahmins, during their Naturalization process many of them
change their last names to Iyer or Iyengar (two sects of Brahmins).

I am referring to guys from the southern part of India where I am from. Its
not a common practice there.

My interpretation of this is these folks have a perceived sense of superiority
feeling about their caste and having it in the last name is a form of
boasting.

In South India there has been a social movement in the last few decades to
allocate quotas for "lower" caste members in universities and govt jobs to
stop the domination of brahmins (merits, or lack there of, of the quota system
is whole different topic). So having Iyer or Iyergar as last name would be
frowned upon/judged endlessly there. May be they feel a sense of freedom here
in US that prompts this behavior.

~~~
sbmthakur
The quota system is actually called 'reservation' and it's not specific to
South India.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India)

Though the percentage of the seats reserved varies with each state.

~~~
Bang2Bay
the atrocity is prevalent in the entire nation?!

------
randomguy2379
I am someone who was born a hindu dalit and I am so ashamed of sharing that
identity of mine that I am posting anonymously. For someone wondering what the
Hindu caste system is, here is a primer.

Hindus believe that humans are like dogs and they have a breed. So a person
who is born in a higher caste is of a better breed than a person born in a
lower caste. Numerous genetic studies have found no significant difference
amongst Indian castes. The moment an upper caste person realizes that you are
a lower caste, you will be made fun of and ridiculed. Caste is also tied to
your last name, so when a Hindu person says his full name he is telling his
First name and his Caste. Which is why brahmins will be the first ones in a
group to say their full name, while dalits will only meekly say their first
name. The entire religion and caste system was built to make people feel
shameful of their last name. In fact, some last names of lower castes are
commonly used as abuses by upper caste.

It is the worst form of discrimination known to man and it's horrible how
hindu society openly supports and promotes it. While slavery lasted only for a
couple of hundred years, caste system has been going on for millennia. Dalit
atrocities are common in India even today and everyday 10s of lower castes
dalits are raped, killed , tortured and humiliated just because they were born
a lower caste Hindu. Upper caste hindu managers openly look down on lower
caste hindus, even in the US , and will discriminate against them. Caste shame
is also inbuilt in a lot of Dalit hindus and they themselves feel embarrassed
while even saying their full name.

One of the best things I did after coming to this country was to convert to
christianity and a few of my dalit hindu friends have done too. Upper caste
hindus have no problem seeing a converted christian as their equal, but they
would still regard a hindu dalit as inferior. Hinduism has a huge conversion
problem even in India, and it is the fastest shrinking religion in the world.

~~~
throwaway010720
I have been living in the western hemisphere for the past decade or so, and it
bothers me that other Indians to this day try to find my caste and try to
argue that their caste is superior than mine. One of the reasons I avoid
making Indian friends abroad. I have a feeling many of these Indians living in
the west for a good amount of time have much narrower minds than most Indians
living in India these days.

~~~
ram_rar
I cannot agree more. I feel the folks living in cities in india are much more
broad minded than indians who have migrated to US long time.

------
richliss
“Cisco determined caste discrimination was not illegal”

Holy shit if there was ever a red flag on an employer and their HR it’s this.

Basically-

“We have determined that whilst we pay lip service to getting rid of good ole
US style bullying and discrimination we are ok with non-US people bullying and
discriminating against each other in their own cultural way as long as it
doesn’t break the US law.”

I can add Cisco to a company I’d never work for.

------
intsunny
As a Brahmin (the highest of the caste system) I think the whole caste system
is stupid.

This is one of those things that my parents tried to enforce on to me, but it
didn't work, and if/when I have children they will be taught to consider
themselves not Brahmin (because my wife isn't even Indian).

Thankfully I grew up with the Western world schooling system where equality is
continually preached. When I was old enough to think for myself, I realized I
cannot be better than anyone else just because of birth. In the context of
BLM, sometimes it is hard to see that our continual strive towards equality is
indeed somewhat working. (It just has a very long long way to go.)

------
duxup
>At Cisco, the unnamed employee reported Iyer to human resources in November
2016 for outing him as a Dalit to colleagues. Iyer allegedly retaliated, but
Cisco determined caste discrimination was not illegal and issues continued
through 2018, the lawsuit states.

I wouldn't expect HR to side with the lower level employee as generally HR
groups are there to protect the company.... but I would wonder what their
findings were that found it wasn't illegal.

~~~
hlieberman
This is the buried lede in the article: they didn't deny the allegations,
simply determined that it wasn't illegal (!)

~~~
ViViDboarder
Well, retaliation is illegal even if they believed the initial complained
wasn’t illegal. Of course, discrimination is bad for businesses and they
should have taken action against the managers anyway.

------
throwaway010720
I am an Indian and this is one of the reasons I didn't move to US (among other
reasons).

My own brother is part of an Indian clique, which is, believe it or not
exclusive only to members of our own caste. He has been living in US for
almost 20 years and all his friends are from our own caste.

It bothers me that Indians in US follow all these customs and superstitions
blindly after being so educated and having travelled the world. But then
moving to California doesn't mean travelling the world of course.

~~~
AdrianB1
Maybe I misunderstood you, but moving in USA just to have most or all the
friends from your own country is not emigrating, it moving part of India in
US. It is usually expected that when you emigrate you blend in with the
country where you emigrated, bringing with you cultural diversity, not
creating ethnic bubbles.

------
hartator
> but Cisco determined caste discrimination was not illegal and issues
> continued through 2018

How this shit is legal.

~~~
awakeasleep
To give you a concise answer, USA Federal law only prohibits discrimination
based on the following characteristics:

Race. Color. Religion or creed. National origin or ancestry. Sex. Age.
Physical or mental disability. Veteran status. Genetic information.
Citizenship.

Anything else you can think of is a legal reason to discriminate

~~~
ardit33
you could argue that caste, is a combination of color+religion+origin/ancestry
combo... it has a racial + religion + ancestry undertone.... i.e. it is
something you are 'born into'.

~~~
hef19898
Sure. But maybe to complex for most people. And more often than not, people
seem to be quite happy with excuses to _not_ do anything.

------
naruvimama
People have tried to bring caste politics into Britain and failed miserably.

The intent is not social justice, but to splinter the Indian community in the
US by legalising divisions and forcing them to declare it in their documents.

As a child growing up in south India where we do not have caste names, I
became caste conscious only in high school. Friends and class mates, some of
them from wealthy, powerful and privileged families would point out how all
they need was a B grade to get in a college of their choices. Whereas I may
not even if I got all As.

It is not that I come from a "high caste", my ancestors were refuges of
islamic invasion and were subsistence farmers. It is just that one needs the
political clout to be classified as a backward caste to enjoy the many
benefits of being classified as one including college admission, scholarships
and government jobs.

In hindsight I am happy that I made it without reservation, because I do feel
less like a free loader.

Ironically, my parents did give me a first name popular among brahmins and in
hindsight I do see why some Christian teachers might have been especially
harsh on me.

Stop promoting hate & divisions, especially if you are in a position of power.

------
LatteLazy
It sounds like cisco found discrimination but decided that it wasn't
technically illegal and therefore to let it continue. Whether they end up
being correct on the legality, that's very shitty behaviour.

------
seemslegit
As a cisgender hetherosexual male of European descent (that's apex privilege
tier in case it's not obvious) I can't help notice that the things that keep
the Indian caste system alive are Brahmins opining against it at every
opportunity while prepending their statements with 'As a Brahmin...' and the
fact that promoting Brahmins makes sense for many companies with significant
Hindu workforce because other castes naturally defer to their authority and in
many cases this is pretty much all you want from a line/middle manager.

------
noisy_boy
On a not totally unrelated note, the quota for scheduled caste (SC)/scheduled
tribes (ST) in India has had the unintended effect of discriminatory behaviour
towards them by non-SC/ST. E.g. if the cut-off marks for getting admission in
a college course come out to be 165 for non-SC/ST category and 135 for SC/ST
(depending on the no. of seats/no. of candidates/ranking etc), the non-SC/ST
applicant who got 150 and didn't make it, isn't going to super happy that an
SC/ST applicant who got 140 marks got into the same course. This results in
resentment of SC/ST students/applicants/workers who have availed the quota
system for courses/jobs etc.

Further, the fact that such a quota system was supposed to be for a
fixed/limited period for upliftment of such groups, has been renewed again and
again for vote-bank politics and that has caused even more acrimony. This has
nicely played into the politicians' dream of dividing people into clusters
that they can manipulate.

------
perl4ever
An interesting article:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India)

Also,
[https://minorityrights.org/minorities/dalits/](https://minorityrights.org/minorities/dalits/)

------
rpiguy
As an American I never really understood how bad the caste system was until I
went to an Indian restaurant and arrived a few minutes before it opened for
dinner.

The owner, an Indian gentlemen, invited me into the restaurant rather than
making me wait until it opened. He was exceedingly polite and even offered me
a complimentary cup of tea while I waited for the restaurant to open.

Then he barked something in an Indian language (I would presume Hindi but I
don't know there are a lot of languages spoken in India) and a small man who
looked older than he probably is came out of the kitchen with the tea for us.

He would not look us in the eye. He had only a few teeth.

I didn't realize until after I left the restaurant that the Indian family who
owned the restaurant probably brought their lower caste servants from India
with them to labor at the restaurant.

The whole thing made me feel terrible and I haven't been back to the
restaurant since.

~~~
person_of_color
Report them.

~~~
rpiguy
I thought about it, but I am not sure what I would report them for.

For example, in the US you can legally bring your unpaid servants to the US on
a B-1 visa.

Conversely, if he is a paid employee and legally migrated with the family then
there is nothing to be done about it.

------
randomthrow007
From India, working in software product companies since late nineties. My
experience all in India, other than couple of years in USA very early. Have
worked in companies like Microsoft, Google, Amazon etc in India.

To be honest I'm amazed at all the top level comments around caste, surname
etc.! In my career never came across such situations.

At places like Microsoft, Amazon etc the promotions and perf eval brutally
gets fought over during calibrations time. All in open, one manager against
another, supported by data - who shipped what, how well, who could have done
better, and so on. The last thing one would bring about is 'caste', 'surname'
etc., even whiff of it would have pulled down the managers among their peers
and their managers (typically group head), before even reaching to HR.

I'm not sure what kind of companies all these people worked at. Just so that
HN readers does not get a skewed view - in my two decade plus experience I did
not see any evidence AT ALL in those FANG+M companies and also do not hear in
startups from my friends.

------
redpillor
This is misinformation. in india when you ain't growing you start playing
victim card in order to gain more attention. this isn't a news. this is just
an internal fighting.

British Caste System isn't active in india
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrTUp2mKbWs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrTUp2mKbWs)

~~~
pseudonymousgun
That is simply untrue my friend. I haven't watched what you have shared yet -
sure some people might play victim card when they can't grow - but to dismiss
the plight of millions of people is unwise.

------
eklavya
I am ashamed that a few bad people give a bad name to us all. It reinforces
the cast divide and enables a section to trumpet about the bad Indian culture
or bad Hindu.

It's despicable and I fail to understand how educated and technical people can
still practice something so inhuman.

To the people saying nothing has changed in India, no, so so much has changed,
there are many more intercaste marriages and anecdotal but like 50% of
marriage news I hear are all intercaste. Casteism is on a decline as far as I
can tell. The young generation seems to care about these things.

Also people saying Indian parents don't allow to marry anyone with a lower
caste are being selective. Indian parents don't allow to marry anyone outside
their "own" caste whether they are higher or lower, practised by both "lower"
and "upper" caste parents.

~~~
naveens
How many of the 50% of your anecdotal data is brahmins/upper-castes marrying
dalits?

Have your heard of honour killings where a dalit family killing the upper
caste bride or groom?

~~~
eklavya
Don't really know any brahmins, my friend circle has Dalits and other upper
castes. My sister's friends have examples of Brahmin-Dalit marriages, I know
Dalit-Dalit, Dalit-Non Dalit marriages. All are economically well off whether
Dalit or non Dalit and I get to discuss this online only. We do have
discussions about reservation and it's effects however. My Dalit friend chose
to fight UPSC in general category as a matter of pride and principal, he
didn't want a freebie.

------
Bang2Bay
Hindu upper caste are unnecessarily oppressed. the victim is not named. Let us
consider this fair. Assume that the lawsuit is frivolous, then how is it fair
to name the accused. Here accused would be the victim. California has not
acted fairly.

------
naruvimama
Caste is a complex subject, the word itself is imported from Portuguese and
the system itself is a copy of the European system - Royalty, Clergy,
Merchant, Landlords, Artisans, peasants/labourers.

There is nothing "Indian" about the caste system, certainly nothing to do with
"Hinduism" where even rocks, tree, animals are considered divine.

The modern caste theory was synthesised by British scholar by putting together
two separate ideas that existed in the Indian culture.

"Varna" \- found in one of many law books called manu-smrithi used by some
kingdoms at some point in time. It postulates society and a nation's strength
lies in the four pillars of society based on the type of powers and
responsibility a person has based on where he/she fell, nowhere does it make
the claim that it is by birth. I have never known anyone who has actually read
the Manu-smrithi nor have I even seen one, so much for the theoretical
indulgence.

And it is very practical and fair in that harsh laws apply to people of power
like royalty, clergy, teachers or landowner for crimes committed.

The "jatti" on the other hand evolves naturally based on the work passed on
from father-son and communities based on profession, marriage. In fact,
different jetties do have their own temples, with their own priests and gods
related to their profession. This is in strong contrast to the Church that
monopolised god.

Jatti is strong among people who still live in traditional rural settings
still following professions passed on from father to son. So ironically jatti
is extremely relevant among the poor and weaker sections.

So who benefits from promoting casteism today?

\- Politicians who can divide and rule

\- Christian evangelists who have done similar things around the world like in
Rwanda

\- The elitist among the different castes who either benefit from
reservations, exclusivity, politics or as bargaining chips

\- Even for people who do not care about caste, will find it exceedingly
difficult to find a partner for marriage outside their community network

------
usaar333
> lawsuit found that 67% of Dalits surveyed felt treated unfairly at their
> U.S. workplaces.

I'm more surprised 67% of Dalits would have coworkers knowing their caste. Can
someone give context on how this happens?

~~~
rudiv
If you're raised in India, it is relatively easy to determine someone's
general (varna) caste and specific (jati) caste from their familial name(s)
and/or physical appearance. You can pick these things up by osmosis from
adults (my case), through being taught, or simply through caste-influenced
culture. It's quite complicated, and I'm not an expert. You don't even have to
be Hindu to be a part of the caste system - Muslims and Christians may retain
a familial name that is a marker of caste; in some cases, even without a name
as a marker someone who knows of your particular community may be able to tell
what caste a non-Hindu is simply by knowing what community you're from and
being able to tell what caste that community is historically.

~~~
paloaltokid
_> it is relatively easy to determine someone's general (varna) caste and
specific (jati) caste from their familial name(s) and/or physical appearance._

Is this because people from a specific caste tend to concentrate in a specific
geographic region?

I've learned as a Westerner that there's no model I've grown up with that's
really the best for making sense of India as someone who wasn't born there.
What makes the most sense to me is what an Indian colleague told me - "think
of it as the United States of Europe -- that many languages, that much
diversity, that much complexity and problems."

~~~
youeseh
No, not geographic. Unlike ethnicity or color, the caste system is racial
discrimination based on profession.

In old Indian kingdoms, there were warriors, priests, teachers, business
people, janitors etc. The caste system basically puts a social value on each
of these with priests (who were also teachers) being at the top.

The problem is, you couldn't just choose to be a priest.. or a warrior.. or a
janitor. You were born into the profession. You were a janitor because your
father was a janitor and his father before him.

Discriminating based on caste for the purposes of education, work, government
services, etc.. has been outlawed in the Indian constitution since 1948. It
still happens, because people are people, but less so with each generation.

------
systemvoltage
I don’t understand. If “caste” is something specific to country of India, and
if it is not explicitly listed in US law; can the defendant just claim it to
be a more generalized version discrimination? It’s like going to a barber shop
and they won’t cut your hair because they discriminate based on your accent.
It’s discrimination regardless even though it’s not explicitly listed in the
law. As far as the US law is concerned, caste system of India is completely
arbitrary just like the accent or the color of your clothes or whatever.

~~~
comex
US laws typically don’t have a blanket ban on “discrimination” in general, but
rather ban discrimination based on explicitly listed characteristics. In this
case, they’re accusing Cisco of violating Title VII of the Civil Rights Act,
which bans discrimination based on “race, color, religion, sex or national
origin”.

So you’re actually fully allowed to discriminate based on the color of
someone’s clothes, although probably not accent since it could be considered a
proxy for race or national origin.

~~~
lki876
> US laws typically don’t have a blanket ban on “discrimination” in general

Discrimination happens any time a choice is made. When we hire one person
because we think they'll do a better job or avoid someone because they lack
skills we need, we're not hiring indiscriminately -- i.e. we discriminate.
Sometimes the criteria make sense and other times they don't.

------
pseudonymousgun
Maybe this should also reveal why impactful innovations don't occur much in
India - where the majority of the population (~97%) is classified as
'untouchables', 'dalits', 'lower caste', 'most backward class', 'backward
class', 'other backward class' and treated badly and discriminated - no wonder
the large population in India is busy dealing with their socio-economic
condition rather than freeing up their mental bandwidth to innovate on
socially impactful ideas!

------
thinkingemote
I once had a western educated (self confessed Brahmin) guy say that India and
Pakistan were culturally identical. Now there's some comments here about
converting to Christianity as an attractive alternative, but what about Islam?
Could the success of Islam in certain places in the Indian subcontinent have
been driven by the caste system? Does conversion to Islam involve a change of
name? Does the caste system operate in muslim majority Pakistan for example?

~~~
vishnugupta
Caste system is pervasive in India. It invades almost every religion in India
over time. As an example, here’s what I wrote in another response.

This Jati is so pervasive in India that even the non-Hindu religions such as
Sikhism and “Lingayat” which were explicitly formed to be away from the Hindu
caste system couldn’t escape it. So we now have a few dozen Jati within
Sikhism and Lingayats with an overly of Verna.

~~~
thinkingemote
How about Islam?

~~~
vishnugupta
India has that covered too. Muslim caste structure is a thing, though not as
apparent.

I can’t think of a religion that doesn’t have this structure in India. Maybe
Parsee?

------
known
Oracle also reported similar incident
[https://archive.vn/XTZ5f](https://archive.vn/XTZ5f)

Caste matters everywhere: schools, jobs or life at large in India
[https://archive.vn/tj8tI](https://archive.vn/tj8tI)

And Casteism is worse than Racism;

Casteism = Racism + Slavery
[https://archive.vn/mPsqz](https://archive.vn/mPsqz)

------
known
Education/Employment was 100% 'reserved' to Brahmin for 2000+ years as per
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda)
in
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Indian_history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Indian_history)

------
hexcoda
I am not surprised, I have a friend of mine working for a large financial
services company in north america, he was appreciative of the inclusive
environment and work culture, but in the same conversation used racist slurs
and derogatory language for people from India, it just baffles me how people
can compartmentalize hate for one group of peoples and appreciate
inclusive/liberal views for themselves.

------
naruvimama
Lower-Upper caste is a misnomer, when the British tried to segregate jattis
(communities) into Varna many protested. You could be a king, a priest or a
landowner within your own jatti or community.

The colonialist did the same in Africa, dividing different communities into
"tribes". There is no lower tribe or upper tribe.

If not for reservation (affirmative action), no one would call themselves a
lower caste.

------
known
And this is why in 1932
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communal_Award](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communal_Award)
British recommended a separate country to Lower castes where Upper
caste/Brahmin/Bania/Kshatriya can live on a Visa;

------
thewileyone
This happens around the world. I previously worked closely with teams in India
and someone told me that there's secret lineage books that track every born
Indian so that higher castes can identify lower castes.

Explained a lot cause many of those promoted, didn't deserve it as much as
others, who were probably in lower castes.

------
jariel
Having worked with so many people from the Sub Continent - as many of us have
- I find it really, really odd out none of this seems to escape the bubble.
It's like the rest of us are very unaware of this deeply 'specific' and
pervasive issue.

In some ways, it's our ignorance, in other ways, it's really quite mysterious.

------
ascotan
It's because American companies weed out American biases (sex, gender, race)
in management. When it comes to foreign-born employees with their own biases
HR is silent because there are no rules. I think that a better job needs to
done here.

------
yalogin
> Like other large Silicon Valley employers, Cisco’s workforce includes
> thousands of Indian immigrants, most of whom were born Brahmins or other
> high castes.

This seems too important to just throw in unsubstantiated. I have never seen
this kind of statistic.

~~~
rudiv
It may be surprising or disconcerting to you, but it is an assumption that is
usually borne out - I don't have figures for you, so I can't speak to this
specific case. It is well documented that access to education, wealth, and
most other factors that determine whether an Indian can emigrate to America
for a highly-skilled job are extremely skewed in favour of the forward castes.

~~~
paloaltokid
I was told by a colleague that most Indian folks you meet in tech in the Bay
Area are the 1 percenters of India. Is that kind of what you're saying here as
well?

~~~
paxys
Nah, more like middle to upper-middle class, with good access to education. 1
percenters are the ones with old family money and successful businesses (which
they will inherit). They have no reason to leave the country for a tech job.

~~~
harpratap
Top 1% in India is just $77000 pre-tax income per year (5.5 LPA). This is
comfortably middle & upper-middle class. I think what you are talking about is
top 0.1%

~~~
devdas
1% is determined by wealth, not income.

------
known
An advertisement to hire Upper caste/Brahmin/Bania/Kshatriya to clean toilets
in India [https://archive.vn/sJ7nO](https://archive.vn/sJ7nO)

------
tumetab1
> allowing him to be harassed by two managers because he was from a lower
> Indian caste than them.

Would be cool if article didn't state as fact that some castes are higher than
others and/or that people belong to castes.

~~~
dartharva
how else would you have worded it?

~~~
tumetab1
Something like this:

> allowing him to be harassed by two managers which consider him to have a
> lower status caste

The prejudice should be attributable to the managers, or better, alleged to
the accused.

------
known
Casteism is an Organized Mafia, not Merit which is evident from the fact that
50% Cabinet Ministers in India are Brahmin and 80% Judges in Courts are
Brahmin; And Brahmin are just 3% in India;

------
wqTJ3jmY8br4RWa
I happen to Sundar very well for past 20+ years. I very seriously doubt the
allegations here and frankly surprised his name was mentioned publicly. That
is against the law I would imagine. I hope Cisco covers his legal defense.
This feels like a disgruntled employee trying to get back at his former
bosses.

While I agree nobody should be discriminated against based upon their national
origin, race, caste, gender etc., people need to come to terms with the fact
that life is unfair. Some day you are the pigeon, some day you are the statue.

------
hbarka
It’s interesting to see how systemic discrimination takes root. I wonder if
there’s an encyclopedia identifying the forms of systemic bias.

------
lkhatter
I worked at a company called UST global where the CEO was a racist South
Indian, that hated North Indians. This stuff is totally common.

------
scarface74
Question coming from a position of ignorance: how does someone know what caste
you’re in if you are applying for a job in the US?

~~~
wobbly_bush
The name gives it away most of the times.

------
sahin-boydas
I heard way worse stories than this.

~~~
oliTwist23
Wish they would investigate Apple as well.

------
bmmayer1
Didn't the State of California just repeal its workplace anti-discrimination
law?

------
hkai
Is this the reason why my Indian colleagues never reveal their last name?

~~~
dramstera
yes

------
abhishekash
There is an unparalleled desire of humans to feel superior and thus it does
not matter we are in which country or company. It comes out of us and
intelligence has nothing to do with that.

------
tasssko
How does the caste system affect Bollywood?

------
la6471
Patels man ....

------
pseudonymousgun
This happens all the time, right from when someone joins schooling. In my
college, the brahmin domination was easily visible. They would target and
harass promising young students from other castes, and make them get into
depression. I have simply seen too many people from other castes suffer in my
college, these are not any ordinary students, they are really bright and very
intelligent ones - their only mistake was being a non-brahmin. And this isn't
any ordinary college in India either.

I have heard open statements from brahmin students about their "so called
superiority" during college - many of them are not really smart or
intelligent, but they were of brahmin caste (assumed superiority). One of the
YC funded startups has a person who graduated from the same college - he was a
prick who would discriminate purely based on caste.

I was hoping workplace would be more meritocratic, but it turns out Indian
Hindus are screwed up from the inside. You can easily validate this for
yourself, goto any organization in India, and you can easily see the upper
caste domination - majority of the managers and higher ups would be from
brahmin caste or "other upper castes".

Brahmins like to project it like, people from other castes are not their
equals and since these people from other castes are unable to match them, they
are throwing stones at them due to their frustrations.

But this is far from the truth, in many organizations if the truly valuable
person for the company isn't from this caste or other "so called higher
castes", then they don't get promotions, hikes, and end up being harassed and
forced to quit if they retaliate - seen too many cases, and am smart to know
truth of what happened.

And this is all true for ANY non-brahmin people, not just the lower caste
ones.

The real problem though, there is no real solution to this problem except
making these people realize they are being stupid for "assuming superiority"
and not understanding science.

Many people in the society (obviously from the brahmin caste, especially from
south India) have recently come openly stating they are superior and only
people born into their caste are brainy. And the Indian government doesn't
take any action!

Winston Churchill had said this about brahmins : "To abandon India to the rule
of the Brahmins would be an act of cruel and wicked negligence. It would shame
for ever those who bore its guilt. These Brahmins who mouth and patter the
principles of Western Liberalism, and pose as philosophic and democratic
politicians, are the same Brahmins who deny the primary rights of existence to
nearly sixty millions of their own fellow countrymen whom they call
‘untouchable’, and whom they have by thousands of years of oppression actually
taught to accept this sad position. They will not eat with these sixty
millions, nor drink with them, nor treat them as human beings. They consider
themselves contaminated even by their approach. And then in a moment they turn
round and begin chopping logic with John Stuart Mill, or pleading the rights
of man with Jean Jacques Rousseau.

While any community, social or religious, endorses such practices and asserts
itself resolved to keep sixty millions of fellow countrymen perpetually and
eternally in a state of sub-human bondage, we cannot recognise their claim to
the title-deeds of democracy."

~~~
pseudonymousgun
pretty sure some Brahmin user downvoted this :D This is the reality in India,
whether private or government jobs doesn't matter. People who actually work
here know this as an unspoken truth. And i merely pointed out Winston
Churchill's comments on Brahmins, even that triggers some :D

------
ChrisMarshallNY
I’ve got a “hot button” about castes. I hate ‘em.

Comes from growing up overseas (I live in the US), and having servants.

These were the people that raised us, and were, for all intents and purpose,
“family.”

Except they weren’t, and when I found out how they lived, it broke my heart.

I was also raised by a British mother, who was an awesome woman, but came from
a middle-class Liverpool (“scouse”) family, and spent her entire early life
feeling “not good enough,” despite attending an Ivy-League university, and
excelling at her work
([http://cmarshall.com/miscellaneous/SheilaMarshall.htm](http://cmarshall.com/miscellaneous/SheilaMarshall.htm)).

Knowing how she felt also broke my heart.

The British have a heavy-duty caste system that isn’t as codified as India’s,
but just as pervasive.

Of course, in the US (and, I believe, in other parts of the world), we are
currently facing a reckoning about another type of “caste system.”

There seems to be an innate human need to “just be better” than others. I
think we all have it, and have to make a conscious effort to suppress the
impulse.

~~~
randomguy2379
As someone who was born a lower caste hindu, I don't really mind the british
caste system at all. Because the british caste system is fluid. If you are
born to servant parents and study hard to become a doctor, you end up at the
top of the caste system. Not in Hinduism. Even if you become a doctor, but
were born a dalit(lowest caste), you will remain a dalit and so will your
future generations. There is no escape from the inhuman hindu caste system.

~~~
arethuza
Becoming a doctor does not make you upper class in the UK. You can't really
become upper class, at least in the traditional sense - certainly not through
a job or money.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_Kin...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_Kingdom#Upper_class)

e.g. David Cameron, Eton educated prime-minister, described himself as middle
class.

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25744526](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25744526)

Edit: You could argue that everyone is middle class these days - almost nobody
self identifies as working class and there are so few real upper class people
(I've never met one).

Edit2: Of course, you _used_ to be able to buy entry into the upper class. But
that doesn't happen anymore ;-)

~~~
randomguy2379
A doctor would happily take being middle class rather than being a lowest
caste hindu dalit. The fact that someone can advance to middle class makes it
vastly different from Hinduism where you and your future generations are
doomed to be born in the same caste.

------
js8
Maybe somebody can clarify this for me. It seems that there is a difference in
American and European laws about discrimination, where U.S. has a concept of
protected groups (i.e. they explicitly enumerate who is not to be
discriminated), while EU has laws based on equality of the groups (or more
generally, humans).

It seems to me that the American system is more antagonistic, in the sense it
really prefers some groups (or classes) to another. And this causes more
issues (and more resentment). Am I understanding this right?

~~~
dcolkitt
One underlying difference is that the US has at-will employment. Meaning an
employer can terminate employee for any reason, _except_ specific no-no
reasons.

In the US, it's perfectly legal to fire someone, just cause you think their
haircut is stupid, they stole your girlfriend, they root for a sports team you
don't like, or you just plain don't like them.

I don't want to over-generalize, because Europe is a collection of many
different legal systems, but in general European employees can only be fired
for just cause. That is instead of listing why you can't fire someone, they
enumerate specific reasons you can terminate an employee.

Therefore to protect against discrimination, the American system requires
listing protected classes. The European system does not, because they simply
omit "discrimination" from the list of acceptable just causes for termination.
However in the US discrimination, i.e. employment termination for reasons
unrelated to job performance, is perfectly legal. _As long_ as it doesn't
coincide with officially prohibited types of discrimination. Discriminating
against employees on the basis of race, sex, or religion is a big problem.
Discriminating on the basis of sports fandom, haircut or taste in music is
perfectly legal.

~~~
jcheng
That makes a lot of sense for termination. How about hiring? Do you know if
the European system specifies what attributes are and aren’t allowed to be
considered when it comes to hiring employees?

~~~
sharpneli
EU is a collection of many countries with their unique laws, even if the
principles might be similar. I can only speak of Finnish law.

Our constitution simply states that no-one can be treated unequally, without
acceptable reason, based on race, sex etc etc or any other trait related to
the person itself.

So caste discrimination would be illegal here as it is a reason based on the
person. The loophole of ”Acceptable reason” there is mostly to allow them to
put only people with testicles in mandatory military service without it going
against constitution.

