
SF Is One of the Worst-Paying Places in the US for Software Engineers - rbc
http://www.nextgov.com/cio-briefing/wired-workplace/2017/02/san-francisco-actually-one-worst-paying-places-us-software-engineers/135283/
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anondude12
Disagree. I'm from the Midwest and live in SF now. Couldn't be happier with my
change.

Data point of one:

\- $2200/mo 1BR apt in SF (Inner Sunset). Not trendy, but nice. I got it 3
years ago.

\- Working for a major tech co.

\- Roughly $275K/yr in total comp (salary/equity/bonuses). It goes up around
$10-20k every year, as my equity bumps compound and I get raises.

\- Putting away $18k/yr in 401k + $9k company match.

\- Average bills of $1000/mo. Mostly leisure spending, but also includes the
occasional Lyft, etc.

\- Mostly eat at work for free. Minimal food in the house for dinner, which I
don't eat that often (I snack a lot at work and don't feel hungry). I think I
eat out about 2x/week.

\- No car, though I occasionally ZipCar or mooch my GF's. CalTrain and Clipper
card are paid by my company.

My net worth on Mint has increased roughly $50-100k/year since I began working
here, due to cash savings and stock vesting. I take an international vacation
every year, and visit my family 3x/year.

I previously worked in the Midwest and life wasn't nearly as fun, nor was I
making as much money. More importantly, I didn't have job flexibility. The
workplaces were terrible there (SV culture, silly as it can be, is much
friendlier to employees), and there weren't as many jobs. They also didn't pay
for public transport, give you equity bonuses, pay for your meals, or had
office snacks. A spacious house couldn't make up for all of those differences.

I'm glad I came to SF, despite its downsides (like less space, commuting,
etc). There is a big trend in bashing it, but if you're good at what you do
and know how to manage your money, you can do pretty well here. Not to mention
have a higher quality of life. And if I decide to move back (which is likely,
so I can be closer to family) I'll go back with an amazing CV and probably
better career options.

Stop listening to haters. Don't knock it till you try it.

~~~
alexandercrohde
As a San Franciscan for about 5 years, those costs sound realistic. However
that total comp number is well above the norm for the area. Two points on
that.

1\. If you're going to count equity, count it by the value at the time of the
grant [minus strike price], not what it's worth now. In terms of comp, it was
a gamble that paid off.

2\. It sounds like you work for one of the big 4? Not everybody gets this
opportunity, in fact if your degree isn't in comp-sci they may not even want
to talk to you (regardless of your IQ or what have you).

------
istorical
I love seeing so many people re-package a news piece based on numbeo's cost of
living model which is incredibly flawed and doesn't account for the wide
variance of the cost of rent depending on whether one is single, is willing to
live with roommates, is willing to deal with a longer commute, etc.

Trying to develop a salary + cost of living model that doesn't take into
account one's personal priorities and preferences is foolhardy. And the piece
Hired wrote did exactly that.

News flash: not everyone who lives in NYC or SF is paying $3000 a month in
rent. Many of my friends in NYC are paying $800-1200 for a room in Brooklyn
with a 25-35 minute commute on the subway. My friends in SF tell me that they
pay more but certainly in the 1000-2000 range not the 2000-3000 range that's
always quoted.

Get a significant other and move in together and you can split that in half.

But yes, if you want to live alone, 5 minutes walk from Mission Dolores park
in SF or bring a family into Palo Alto then the bay is the worst paying place
for you as a software engineer.

On the other hand, if you're willing to commute, or willing to have roommates,
cook at home instead buying into the myth that you _have_ to go get brunch at
some $12 avocado toast cafe, then you'll likely save more money in the long
run in SF or NYC than in the Midwest, and yes, after cost of living and after
tax. Unless during your job search you find yourself in the enviable position
of finding salary offers in the midwest that are very close to the same salary
offers you get in the high COL cities. If you do find that though then by all
means live in the midwest. And those situations do exist but it's just that
there are far fewer $100,000 jobs in Des Moines, IA than in Brooklyn, NY.

~~~
tannhauser23
It's not SF/NY vs. Des Moines. It's SF/NY vs. Seattle/Austin/Denver/LA.

Your examples don't disprove the article's main point, which is that the cost
of living in the Bay Area (and New York) erodes much of the salary bump you
get by working in those places. Paying $1200 to rent a bedroom is normal in NY
and SF, but that price will get you an entire apartment or more in many other
places.

Look, to many of us, the Bay Area is worth its high cost - being in the center
of the tech industry, surrounded by thousands of companies, and enjoying the
beautiful weather of this region makes up for expensive housing. But as the
tech industry grows in other cities and as their salaries increase, I'm
beginning to seriously think about moving.

The kind of tradeoffs that I made when I was young, stuff like having
roommates, living in a rundown place, longer commute, etc. increasingly don't
make sense as I get older. I have a family, and looking for a house in the Bay
Area is a sobering affair. Nothing can be had in the Peninsula for under $1.2
million, and even across the Bay homes are $800k plus.

Meanwhile my friends in Seattle and other cities are buying real family homes
and living the American dream. I have to wonder, is it worth staying here?

~~~
jjtheblunt
The answer is no.

------
nugget
If I were a young software developer solely focused on saving as much money as
possible, I would: move to SF in a heartbeat, work for Facebook, Google, or
Amazon, pick a mission-critical team that exposed me to systems at massive
scale, and live in a van a pleasant 5-10 minute bike ride from the office.
After I felt comfortable I'd start to consult on the side on weekends for up
to $53k of annual tax-free solo 401k sheltered income. Life doesn't present a
ton of these "sell picks and shovels to gold miners" opportunities but this is
definitely one of them.

~~~
et-al
> After I felt comfortable I'd start to consult on the side on weekends for up
> to $53k of annual tax-free solo 401k sheltered income.

May someone please explain this? I wasn't aware of a different 401k
contribution limit for freelancing.

> Life doesn't present a ton of these "sell picks and shovels to gold miners"
> opportunities but this is definitely one of them.

Feel like this is more akin to a goldminer working 24/7\. Selling "picks and
shovels" is what landlords / AWS / food delivery / ride-shares are doing.

~~~
pk3
If the side business is profitable (and makes enough to enact this plan), it
works like this for a solo 401(k): the employee's contribution (you) up to
$18,000 and a profit sharing contribution up to 25% of the business earnings.
For 2017, it maxes out at $54,000 if you're under 50 years old.

Keep in mind though that maximums are per person not per company; if you keep
the day job 401(k) (and potential match) you'd have to reduce the
contributions from your side business to not exceed the maximum.

[https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/one-
participant-401k-pl...](https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/one-
participant-401k-plans)
[https://scs.fidelity.com/products/mobile/sepMobile.shtml](https://scs.fidelity.com/products/mobile/sepMobile.shtml)

~~~
nugget
The employee contribution maximum is limited per person, but the employer
contribution maximum is per company (if the companies are unrelated, by
ownership structure). Some illustrative answers here:

[https://www.quora.com/401-k-Is-it-possible-to-fund-both-a-
So...](https://www.quora.com/401-k-Is-it-possible-to-fund-both-a-
Solo-401k-and-a-regular-401k-at-the-same-time)

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tubehouse
They're ignoring equity compensation, which accounts for most of a senior
engineer's income at a California tech company.

~~~
itomato
Uh, not until they're vested and exercise their options.

Grants are really not that common.

~~~
sushid
You're thinking of startups options. The OP is referring to stock
compensation.

------
james_niro
All these data on SF salaries missing the point that SF is not about high
salary etc

You have some of the brightest and intelligent people of the world in one
place. It is like Athens in Ancient Greece,

~~~
alexandercrohde
As an SF resident of 5 years, I'm not sure I'd compare this place to Athens.
Not saying you haven't had that experience, but I haven't so your mileage may
vary.

