
Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves - sohkamyung
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41567391
======
rusanu
Swedish Vikings extended mostly toward what is now Russia and Ukraine, using
Volga, Don and Dniepr as major communication/transport channels [0]. This
brought them into contact with the Khazar Khanagate at the mouth of Volga [1]
and the Volga Bulgars [2] (both muslim at the time). When Vladimir (half
viking) had to choose a religion for his Kievan Rus, Islam was one of the
choices [3] (rejected because it would forbid the joy of drinking, see link).

So there was ample cultural contact with Islam, a religion actively
proselytizing. It lasted about 150-200 years. That some influence made it back
to Sweden should not be surprising.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_trade_route](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_trade_route)
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars)
[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Bulgaria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Bulgaria)
[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_the_Great](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_the_Great)

~~~
fpoling
I remember reading that Vikings used ships rented in Khazar Khanagate to
attack targets in Mediterranean as a form of disguise. They payed the rent
with things they captured during the raids.

~~~
d--b
Thanks, I just googled this. Apparently it's Khaganate rather than Khanagate.

~~~
posterboy
With old names it might be both, I guess, depending on who you ask.

I wonder, has khan any to do with Kahn (ger. ship).

~~~
kingofpandora
It doesn't. "kh" should be read as a single sound (Arabic or Persian خ) not a
sequence of two sounds.

~~~
posterboy
both khan and kahn come out as british _can 't_ modulo _t_ does, I guess,
though noone knows what it sounded like originally.

~~~
Grustaf
No they don't, kh is an aspirated k sound. In any case that is not what was
mistyped in the original post, it was the second and third syllables that hade
changed places.

------
anovikov
Well, why don't they think that Vikings simply seen these as a decoration, not
understanding what they mean? That happens in much much more recent times.
Late Russian ex-foreign minister, and ex-prime minister Primakov, who is Arab
states specialist and reads Arabic scripts very well, once saw a garment with
'No god except Allah...' on Patriarch of Russia Alexy II, shocking him because
similar ritual garments were used by the Orthodox church for centuries - with
inscriptions on the cloth seen simply as decorations - cloth was by tradition
bought in Syria. Story was from ca. 1995.

~~~
smnrchrds
Allah literally means God in Arabic. It is comprised of definite prefix 'Al'
and the word for god 'Elah'. In English, to show the difference between
generic god and specific God, the first letter is capitalized. Arabic does not
have the same capitalization rule , so instead they call the specific deity
'Allah', literally meaning 'the god', or 'God'.

This is important because not all Mulsims are Arab and not all Arabs are
Muslim. Allah is first and foremost an Arabic word. As a result, practitioners
of Islam in other languages use other words to refer to God.

In Iran, for example, Persian word 'Khoda' is used by Muslims, Christians,
Jews, and Zoroastrians to refer to God in their religion. 'Allah' is never
used except in phrases and words borrowed from Arabic and using it on its own
in the middle of a Persian sentence would sound very odd.

I have also heard that Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews use the Allah to
refer to God in their religions, but I have not fact-checked it.

~~~
theprotocol
>I have also heard that Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews use the Allah to
refer to God in their religions, but I have not fact-checked it.

I can confirm this. We say "Allah." The advent of Islam into the global public
awareness has created a lot of confusion about Middle Eastern cultures, e.g. I
frequently hear "Allah is the name of the Muslims' God." But it is in fact a
more generic word, exactly analogous to "God" with a capital G.

~~~
jfaucett
> I can confirm this. We say "Allah."

Is there any difference at all? I was under the impression that all abrahamic
religions referenced the same "God". So when a Muslim, Jew, and Christian say
"God" are they not all referring to the same deity?

~~~
theprotocol
There is no grammatical difference. @smnrchrds above is spot on in his
explanation of the etymology. "Elah" is "god" with a lowercase g (as in, a
god). "Al" means "the" in Arabic. "Allah" = "Al Elah" = "the god" = "God."

Now, whether the Abrahamic religions consider their God to be one and the same
is a philosophical question. It depends on what "the same" means. Each of them
claims to refer to the same entity, at least from a historical (or
archaeological) point of view; but some followers of the different Abrahamic
religions might object to each other's representations of God and deem them
"not the same." A theological case can be made that they are ultimately
distinct (I find it to be weak, but it's been argued). But, nominally, they
are the same entity despite differences in characterization (and I believe
this is the prevalent view).

~~~
pdpi
Islam is, AIUI quite explicit in saying that they worship the same deity as
Christians, agree that Mary was a virgin, and that the birth of Christ was a
miracle. They just consider Christ to be (one of?) God’s favourite prophet,
rather than God incarnate.

~~~
baldfat
There is even an empty tomb next to Mohamed's tomb for when the Christians
kill Jesus when He returns and proclaims Mohamed the greatest Prophet. The
religions have interesting intersections but I have never had a good
conversation with a person about it because they always assume I am trying to
convert them.

------
earksiinni
Sceptical that this means that there were Muslim Vikings. Arabic script was
commonly used throughout medieval Iberia as decoration, often without any
meaningful words, just Arabic letters strung together for aesthetic effect.
Wouldn’t surprise me if something similar was going on here, where Iranian
weavers were simply mass producing cloth for export with Ali and Allah
embroidered as decoration. Keep in mind that Viking runes can be found
inscribed in the walls of the Hagia Sophia. That doesn’t mean that the Vikings
were Christian (or Muslim); it means that our stereotypes about the Middle
Ages are totally invented by nineteenth century historians with their own
nationalist agendas that didn’t allow for a cosmopolitan, globalized medieval
Europe.

~~~
lucaspiller
Here in Lithuania (well the empire, so Poland and Belarus too) there were a
large number of Muslim settlers who arrived in the 14th century. They were
known for their military strength and were invited by Vytautas to aid in the
efforts against the Christian Crusaders.

If military prowess was as highly regarded as we believe to the Vikings, I
wouldn’t be surprised if they did something similar too.

~~~
int_19h
It's entirely possible that there were converts, as well. Many European
cultures pre-Christianization had pretty broad-minded attitudes towards
religion, and while the majority would adhere to the predominant pagan
tradition, some individuals and families would sometimes convert to another
religion when exposed to it. Especially given the rather pragmatic attitude
towards religious worship among pagans at the time, choosing to honor and
worship a god perceived as "stronger" for whatever reason would not be
inconceivable - and the impressive early military successes of the Caliphate
would be seen as testament to the strength of the god proclaimed on its
banners...

While we're at it, one of the founding myths about Christianization of Kievan
Rus involves knyaz Vladimir holding a council on which faith to convert to,
and inviting preachers to compete - supposedly, Latin and Greek rites of
Christianity, Islam (via Volga Bulgars), and Judaism (via Khazars) were all on
the table. According to the legend, Islam was rejected first, solely on
account of banning alcohol. Judaism was reviewed and rejected next, because
the loss of Jerusalem and destruction of the Temple was seen as a clear sign
of divine weakness by the pagan Rus. Finally, between the Greek and the Latin
rites of Christianity, they picked Greek, because Greek churches and priests
were decorated much more lavishly (with lots of prominently displayed gold
etc), while Latin ones were more subdued.

While it's almost certainly a legend that does not correspond to an actual
event, its very premise speaks volumes about how religion was viewed in that
time period.

~~~
jmnicolas
Is there a reason given why he wanted to choose a religion ?

~~~
int_19h
The country (Kievan Rus) was basically just freshly minted at that point, and
its various constituent regions, and their respective tribes, didn't really
see themselves as a single nation yet - Vladimir's grandfather Igor was killed
in a rebellion when trying to collect tribute from one, for example. It
occurred to Vladimir that to strengthen the centralized rule of a single king
- himself - a monotheistic religion, mirroring the desired arrangement in the
spiritual sphere, and providing religious backing to his right to rule
("divine right of kings" etc), would be helpful.

Initially, he tried to reform the existing pagan religion, by taking one god -
Perun (god of war and thunder) - and elevating him above others as the supreme
god. But that didn't take up too well, and meanwhile, he saw the far more
successful examples of what he was trying to do happening in Bulgaria and
Poland, with Christianity as the unifying force.

He also wanted to have a strong relationship with neighboring Byzantium. In
particular, after getting involved into their ongoing civil war, and
supporting the ruling emperor against the rebels, he convinced (or forced,
depending on your perspective - it was a condition for his support) the
emperor to give his sister in marriage to him - but converting to Christianity
was a prerequisite for that. And, of course, a Christian ruler needed
Christianity as a state religion, if he wanted religious backing. This last
part is why the legend is most likely just that, a legend - Greek-rite
Christianity was really the obvious pragmatic choice in the circumstances.

~~~
jmnicolas
Thanks for this detailed answer.

------
megaman22
Norse were trading and raiding all over the rivers of eastern Europe, down
into the Black Sea, and likewise along the Atlantic seaboard into the
Mediterranean. It would be profoundly weird if some items of Islamic
provenance did not make their way into grave goods and hoards in Scandinavia.

~~~
hourislate
Almost every King Kyiv/ Kyiv Rus was a Viking. The last Viking King of Norway
was also the last King of Kyiv from what I understand.

They fought with the Turks for 100's of years. It wouldn't surprise me if this
clothing was not just something they came across on a raid or purchased.

~~~
int_19h
Svyatoslav Igorevich (Sveinald Ingvarsson) was arguably the last ruler of Rus
who was a pure-blooded Varangian (Viking), and mostly adhered to their customs
- but, notably, he already used the Slavic form of his name predominantly, not
the Norse one. His wives appear to have been Slavic, and his firstborn son had
a Slavic name.

One of the other sons, Vladimir (Valdamarr), was still a Viking enough to go
seek - and get! - the help of his Viking relatives in Scandinavia to overthrow
his brothers. But after converting himself and the country to Eastern
Christianity, arguably, he finally severed that link. His successors were
definitely not Vikings in any sense, although they did marry their daughters
into Scandinavian royalty, among others.

------
hprotagonist
the "viking buddha" is another fine example of robust trade networks during
the migration period. Material goods get around!

[http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-
viki...](http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-viking-age-
buddha/)

This goes both ways, of course. A Varangian Guards carved "halfdan was here"
on the hagia sophia:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_inscriptions_in_Hagia_So...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_inscriptions_in_Hagia_Sophia)

~~~
craftyguy
Robust trade, or spoils of conquest/pillaging. In either case, it's not
totally surprising that good from half a world away would end up in some
viking longhouse.

~~~
pilsetnieks
It's doubtful they were especially more keen on raiding and pillaging than
other cultures of the time. They were some of the last pagans of Europe and
they didn't shy away from raiding churches and monasteries. Monks were almost
the only people who could write about it, and their bias influences their
accounts.

It's not that vikings were especially nice and peaceable people but neither
was anyone then.

~~~
craftyguy
definitely. but they seemed to be one of the most well-traveled (as an
ethnicity), hence why they may have acquired objects from distant lands more
easily than others. those things could have come into posession by visiting
(either peacefully or forefully) less distant lands that traded with more
distant lands for those objects.

------
Yetanfou
Placed in the perspective of the current political climate in Sweden I can not
be but sceptic against research which tries to make islam part of Sweden's
history. While the article is published by the BBC, the research - for what it
is - was done in Uppsala.

That Vikings travelled to islamic countries is known. That they traded with
them - willingly or unwillingly - is also known. They did the same with many
other cultures and brought materials back to Scandinavia. There have been
finds of Buddhist statues, swastikas, Christian ornaments from the time when
the Vikings were still going the way of Odin and Thor, etc. There is, however,
no research showing the Vikings were making Buddhism part of their culture
even though they used some of their symbology (swastikas come to mind). Why
not? Because there is no political drive to give Buddhism a part in Sweden's
history while there is a strong drive to do this to islam, especially in parts
of academia.

Also, if these Vikings wanted to show allegiance to allah and Ali, why did
they do so in mirror image?

This belongs to the realm of Beatles covers showing mirror images of Paul
McCartney being dead, backward satanic messages on rock albums and chemtrails:
the conclusion was the starting point, all that was left was a search for
'evidence'.

~~~
eksemplar
The article is based on research done by an archeologist at a university who
wasn't looking for evidence of Arabic culture. The research hasn't yet
concluded anything.

What do you base your statement on? Your gut?

~~~
coldtea
Usually for those kind of things, it doesn't have to be the research per se.
Instead, it's which findings are promoted more in the media, and which are
left obscure -- and that's often based on political decisions, what's popular
(and can attract grants), and what fits certain narratives (sometimes
nationalistic, sometimes globalist, whichever pays better at any given time).

------
chewz
Not only Vikings were traveling as far as Constantinople but also Muslim
traders were coming as far as Baltic.

Ibrahim ibn Yaqub [1] trader - Hispano-Arabic Sepharadi Jew (quite a pedigree)
have left chronicle of his journeys as far as Wolin [2] and Rugen [3] -
islands inhabited at the time by Weneds (Rani) - Slavian vikings - where
contacts with Scandinavian Vikings were daily occurrence.

There were probably other traders.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_ibn_Yaqub](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_ibn_Yaqub)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCgen#Slavic_Rani](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCgen#Slavic_Rani)

[3] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolin)

------
wnevets
This makes me think of the movie the 13th warrior[0] where a warrior from
Baghdad fights along side Vikings

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_13th_Warrior](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_13th_Warrior)

~~~
stevenwoo
The TV show Vikings shows one Viking family around 1100? traveling to Arab
lands and picking up an East Asian female along the way and being the first
ones to attack England, heavily fictionalized.

~~~
rypskar
I would think the show is supposed to be set around year 800, since it started
with attack on Lindsfarne,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindisfarne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindisfarne),
which is the first known Viking raid. Also Ragnar and the Ragnar sons was
before the story started in Snorres Heimskringla
[https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimskringla](https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimskringla).
Third Harald Hårfagre (850-930), from before he became king, is part of the
series. Of course the series is not strict to the history, but in most places
it is close enough to recognize the events from history. The Arab land they
did go to was Spain, I even think they called it Spain in the series.

It is well known that vikings did go down to the Meditarian Ocean, for
instance it is known that the vikings did call Constantinople for Miklagard
and that they did trade with Arabs both in Arab countries and in Scandinavian

------
Glyptodon
What makes it plausible to assume a deeper connection than trade for an
average case of this sort?

~~~
irb
No one is assuming anything, they are investigating. It's what archaeologists
and historians do when they find something interesting.

Why are you so quick to want to shut it down?

------
lokimedes
The Swedish vikings are known to have travelled, traded and served as guards
for the Ottomans. Most people equate Vikings with the Danish/Norwegian raids
and voyages in western europe and the atlantic. It’s an interesting discovery,
but the article lacks a bit of context. (Source: Historical Atlas of the
Vikings by John Haywood, also a history interested dane/norseman).

~~~
chewz
The Ottoman Turkey did not exists at the time. Even for Seljuk Turkish state
it was a little too early.

You mean Byzantium - Constantinople was called Miklagard by Vikings.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians)

[http://www.viking.no/e/turkey/](http://www.viking.no/e/turkey/)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuq_dynasty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuq_dynasty)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire)

~~~
lokimedes
Right, sorry about the offhand naming, yes, the same region at least.

------
gadders
If you fancy a fun piece of fiction that covers Muslim/Viking interaction,
Eaters of the Dead by Michael Crichton is a good read [1].

He blends a re-telling of the Beowulf story with the accounts of Ahmad ibn
Fadlan [2] and his interactions with the Volga Vikings [3].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaters_of_the_Dead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaters_of_the_Dead)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians)

------
INTPenis
Height of the viking culture, height of the arabic culture. It's not so
strange. Considering the vikings even had their own name for Istanbul.

------
Geekette
The discovery seems makes sense given the migratory, raiding and trade
patterns between the Arab and Viking worlds in the era discussed. Some
settlers and converts (of tradition, religion, etc) will always be found
within intersections of 2 or more cultural groups interacting under any
pretext. The post also outlines physical evidence, which has/will presumably
be re-examined directly by other researchers to verify and extend lines of
inquiry.

So, it is mildly amazing to see the mental gymnastics being exhibited by some
comments to refute a completely uncontroversial discovery.

------
vondur
I believe that the Vikings also raided cities in Islamic Spain. Could have
been something they stole and made clothes of it.

~~~
pilsetnieks
They didn't just rape and pillage, as is popularly assumed; they settled and
traded as well. It's not improbable that they'd buy exotic clothing,
especially the ornate kind worn for various events or ceremonies.

~~~
leyth
They were probably more civilized than we think; I mean, the level of trade
with the rest of the world is certainly the biggest proof we have.

------
Grustaf
It seems most of the pattern was made up by the researchers:
[https://stringgeek.blogspot.dk/2017/10/viking-age-tablet-
wea...](https://stringgeek.blogspot.dk/2017/10/viking-age-tablet-weaving-
kufic-or-not.html?m=1)

------
geff82
Question for me as a Westerner capable of reading/writing arabic script: does
anyone see an example where the name "Ali" is written? I wonder a bit. In the
pictures, it is not shown (except for the picture coming from Bulgaria, which
has nothing to do with Viking clothing).

So if someone can point me to a picture containing the "Ali" part of the
enigma, please link it here.

------
beamatronic
Pascal's Wager?

------
jlebrech
1\. it's the BBC, they are biased towards that type article

2\. it's totally non-obvious and the message is hidden (as per the article)

3\. arabs, were obsessed (also experts) by geometric patterns and those
pattern were also their early gods. so they would have produced many goods
with nice patterns on them.

4\. it looks nice, and i'm sure they would have bought or stole those items
from arabs.

5\. pascal's wager, they could be hedging their bets.

6\. they were probably pre Bluetooth, where he unified the viking religion to
be Christianity.

------
pdimitar
Anybody else thought of the movie "The 13th Warrior" after reading the
article?

------
yters
Allah was used by Christians and other monotheists before the term was co-
opted by Muslims. There were many Christians in the Arab peninsula before the
Muslim conquests. It is derived from Elohim, the Hebrew word for God.

------
keelhaule
Archeologists deal "with touchable evidence". Archeology is above History and
Linguistics. Since history is written by the ones who controls hashing power.
History has higher entropy before the Gutenberg.

------
nextstep
Why was the title changed?

------
AmIFirstToThink
Occam's razor:

Viking raided silk traders travelling far, or raided people who had access to
those traders, traders who were either wearing or selling the silk cloth with
pattern.

~~~
qw
Why assume raids? Vikings were also traders and travelled far. They might as
well have bought the cloth in Byzantium.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
IIRC viking is an action akin to "raiding", maybe that's why? People groups
who vikinged also traded.

As to why make the assumption, unless there's evidence of Scandinavian goods
in Byzantium it's a good assumption.

------
cerved
Someone in r/Sweden who works in the field pointed out the severe lack of
credibility of the researcher who published this finding so do your due
diligence and check your sources before jumping to conclusions

~~~
heavenlyhash
... What on _earth_ is going on in r/Sweden? There's some real sludge being
thrown around in there. It's about par with 4chan's /b. Somehow I don't think
that reddit is a very normal sample of the culture of Sweden.

To put it gently... _cough_ Where does r/Sweden get _its_ credibility from?

~~~
aedron
Reddit is a refuge for a lot of very right-wing commenters, I've seen the same
in several /r/<European country>.

The debate in Europe is so toxic, on one side starry-eyed humanists, on the
other narrow-minded losers. Each resort to separate little bubbles where they
can reaffirm each other. In the middle, reasonable people get squeezed out.

