
Explore the Swiss Leaks Data - anigbrowl
http://www.icij.org/project/swiss-leaks/explore-swiss-leaks-data/
======
chkuendig
_Most client & account data from 1988-2007; amounts from 2006-07. _

Seems like this is the same dataset which Falciani leaked to the french
authorities 5 years ago:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herv%C3%A9_Falciani](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herv%C3%A9_Falciani)

Edit: See also
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagarde_list](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagarde_list)
\- this list has already a quite interesting history.

~~~
junto
It is the Hervé Falciani leak. See the Guardian coverage:
[http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/08/hsbc-
files-e...](http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/08/hsbc-files-expose-
swiss-bank-clients-dodge-taxes-hide-millions)

    
    
      The origin of the leak The HSBC files were obtained through an international 
      collaboration of news outlets, including the Guardian, Le Monde, BBC Panorama 
      and the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists
    
       1 In late 2007, Hervé Falciani, an IT expert at HSBC's Swiss bank, hacked into 
         its customer files. He fled to France with police on his trail for breaching 
         Switzerland's rigid bank secrecy laws.
       2 The French authorities detained him, but refused to extradite him when they 
         realised the data could identify thousands of French tax evaders. Falciani now 
         lives in France under protection.
       3 In early 2010, under finance minister Christine Lagarde, France prepared 
         confidential lists of the leaked names for other countries. The so-called 
         "Lagarde list" led to scandal and arrests in Greece, Spain, the US, Belgium and 
         Argentina.
       4 Britain's tax authority, HMRC, received a list in 2010 from which it identified 
         more than 1,000 tax evaders. More than £135m ($206m) was quietly recovered in 
         repayments, but only one person was prosecuted. There has been no UK legal action 
         against HSBC. Names were never revealed.

~~~
tormeh
Why so few prosecuted in Britain? Wouldn't this be a good opportunity to get
some assholes who thought they could shift the tax burden to others? Six month
prison sentences sounds reasonable. British prisons suck, but given that this
is partly the dodgers fault that's just poetic.

~~~
hessenwolf
What would be the value in it? Justice? What does that mean? Punishment?

Or to send a warning? Would that really be effective?

What would be the cost? Was there anybody in the pot that was expendable,
economically?

~~~
mercurial
> Was there anybody in the pot that was expendable, economically?

What do you mean by "economically expendable"?

~~~
tormeh
[https://www.google.no/search?channel=fs&q=too+rich+for+priso...](https://www.google.no/search?channel=fs&q=too+rich+for+prison&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=BJnYVO2qEIGA8Qey8oGwDw)

------
jsprogrammer
This doesn't appear to be the leaked data, but rather curated profiles of some
of the people referenced in the supposedly leaked data.

Am I missing something?

~~~
raverbashing
This seems to be biased journalists trying to push their agenda through
exposure of private information of selected individuals.

~~~
saiya-jin
journalism is too much flattery in this case

------
saiya-jin
The pattern is apparent - once you become rich, you don't want to donate
millions to governments in taxes. Anyway you do, but trying to minimize it. Be
it for their lack of any transparency how cash will be used (mostly wasted in
very ineffective way). It doesn't matter if it's famous or unknown rich.

Now what to do with this situation... There are too many tax havens out there
(Suisse, Monaco, Channel islands, Luxemburg, Malta etc. - this is just good
ol' europe). There will always be rich, powerful people no matter what system
you come up with (sheep/wolf human nature responsible here). If you tax them
too much, they will flee (ie Tina Turner) and you lose all the money for good.
Those are clever people, having best financial advisors out there.

Heck, if I had hard earned/inherited millions or more, I wouldn't want to
support some war efforts/failing eu social policies either. If feeling
generous, you can always give back more directly ie by building some school,
avoiding bureaucrats that eat away most of cash. YOu know, the richest man in
the world style. There is a good reason why he didn't donate all his money to
something existing, but managing investments by himself (maybe not exact
description, but you get the point).

All in all, nothing new...

~~~
jakobegger
Paying taxes is not "donating money". You are required by law to pay them. You
get certain things in exchange, like laws that protect your property.

If you think that you shouldn't be forced to pay taxes, why do you think that
other laws should be enforced? If rich people steal from the state, why
shouldn't poor people just take what they want from the rich?

If you avoid taxes, you are stealing from everybody.

~~~
VMG
> You get certain things in exchange, like laws that protect your property.

With the important difference that the price is non-negotiable, and set by the
service provider alone. The people highlighted on the website chose to park
their property elsewhere, so the government had zero cost in protecting that.

The price is not in proportion to the quality of service at all, it's
proportional to the income of the citizen. Which is consistent with what most
people understand taxes to be: a wealth redistribution mechanism, rather than
a service fee.

> If you avoid taxes, you are stealing from everybody.

If all the people which avoid some taxes currently (basically every large
corporation) close down operations in the US and move to a country with more
favorable conditions, the theft (under your definition) would stop. Do you
think the net gain would be positive?

~~~
jsprogrammer
>With the important difference that the price is non-negotiable, and set by
the service provider alone.

Hunh? Most (all) of the states involved have some form of democratic
government don't they? I know some of them still have monarchs (why?), but I
believe their policy makers are elected by the general population, are they
not?

~~~
wtbob
Democracy is a pack of wolves voting on which sheep to have for dinner.

Now, what _I 'd_ like to see is each person's vote multiplied by the amount he
pays in taxes (all taxes: property, sales, income &c.). That would be fair,
and it'd give an incentive to pay up too.

~~~
jevgeni
Which is even more cut throat, since you're basically selling political power:
rich people would be able to afford way more, than the poor.

~~~
avn2109
Fair point, but it seems relevant to acknowledge that the American campaign
finance system as presently organized is exactly isomorphic to the "selling
political power" you mention above.

------
kshatrea
This is a big story in Indian news today. The current prime minister, Narendra
Modi was elected partly because he promised to bring black money that was
stashed abroad, back to the country. A Herculean task and one that he hasn't
done much about so far. It interests me how this information can be used
against the relevant people. Will it be a mere name-and-shame or can they use
a leaked source in a court of law? I don't think so. People in many countries
avoid taxes and in India this is especially egregious since close to 97% of
the population does not pay any income taxes[1]. For a population of 1.25
billion with 400m below the poverty line, this is not good. [1]
[http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-11-04/news...](http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-11-04/news/43658577_1_lakh-
crore-big-data-tax-collections)

~~~
bottled_poe
Can leaked documents constitute probable cause? If so, further warrants could
be obtained to investigate account holders.

------
mammmamia
Looks worthless, only selected people who they think are worthy enough to
publish. Why not all the names or raw data?

~~~
Totoradio
The raw data contains phone numbers, adresses and other personal data (source
[http://www.lemonde.fr/les-
decodeurs/article/2015/02/09/qui-s...](http://www.lemonde.fr/les-
decodeurs/article/2015/02/09/qui-sont-les-francais-de-la-liste-
hsbc_4569943_4355770.html) ). I can see why it's not published as is.

~~~
ptaipale
Doesn't explain selecting names and sums, though.

------
LunaSea
Is there any raw data that can be downloaded ?

~~~
linux_devil
Raw data will be helpful , I tried to explore couldn't find it.

~~~
xrjn
It would be interesting to see if they will release it, I guess there would be
concerns with privacy for people who weren't in the alleged 70% [1] who's
accounts got closed. I guess it's more of an ethical question.

[1] [http://www.icij.org/project/swiss-leaks/banking-giant-
hsbc-s...](http://www.icij.org/project/swiss-leaks/banking-giant-hsbc-
sheltered-murky-cash-linked-dictators-and-arms-dealers)

------
20kleagues
Did the dataset get released as well?

EDIT: Is the raw dataset out as well? It will be interesting to see all the
names.

~~~
unimportant
You can find a dataset of a previous banking leak if that kind of stuff
interests you. Just google Cayman banking leak.

~~~
zzleeper
Tried to find it but the top google matches are just links to your comment =/

~~~
unimportant
I can't use google here because its blocked, however bing gives me decent
results.

The leak was from bank julius baer.

------
spikels
A crappy website (iOS not recommended) is not nearly as useful as the actual
data which might be really interesting.

Why are news organizations so often barriers to getting information? Please
release the source documents.

------
anonu
The Lebanon aspect of this story has been under reported in my opinion. The
guy who leaked these files was trying to sell them to the big Lebanese banks
before he realized he wasn't going to profit from that. I bet he was chased
out of the country and had no choice but to hand the files over to the French.
But realistically, what would Lebanese banks benefit from purchasing stolen
data? Nothing... If they had used the data it would have undermined their
credibility... Something that many people in the region would be happy to see.

------
giis
The link doesn't disclose all names,only selected few are there. I hope they
will disclose all soon.

------
pacalleri
Can someone clarify why is nobody publishing the complete list of names or the
raw data files?

------
known
How Hitler Defied The Bankers?
[http://open.salon.com/blog/gordon_wagner/2010/05/11/how_hitl...](http://open.salon.com/blog/gordon_wagner/2010/05/11/how_hitler_defied_the_bankers)

~~~
drzaiusapelord
Wow, this is a crazy article.

>World Jewry responded by declaring a global boycott against Germany.

So we're using "World Jewry" in casual conversation now? Like that's a thing
and it gave out declarations? Wow.

>All these were paid for with money that no longer came from the private
international bankers.

How many billions were generated by the nationalization of wealth from Jews
and minorities? Killing people and taking their wealth shouldn't be applauded.

>Germany even managed to restore foreign trade, despite the international
bankers’ denial of foreign credit to Germany, and despite the global boycott
by Jewish-owned industries.

Uh, it wasn't just Jews boycotting Hitler, it was a good chunk of the world.
Turns out not everyone loves a sociopathic mass murderer who declares war on
his neighbors.

>Canadian researcher Dr. Henry Makow (who is Jewish himself)

Is this how we write now? We mention who and who isn't a Jew? Wow.

Please keep this pro-Hitler bullshit crap off HN, thanks pal. I find it
amusing and unsurprising that the "OMG THE FED IS THE WORST THING EVER" crowd
obsessed with Rand/Ron Paul also turn out to be historical revisionists and
straight-up racists.

~~~
innguest
> I find it amusing and unsurprising that the "OMG THE FED IS THE WORST THING
> EVER" crowd obsessed with Rand/Ron Paul also turn out to be historical
> revisionists and straight-up racists.

I don't think it's OK for you to generalize like that. Because one article
exists on the internet, and is wrong about Hitler and the banks, therefore all
Fed haters are racist?

When one makes generalization about the Jews they are roundly chided and
rightly so. Consider yourself equally roundly chided. I hate the Fed (it's not
an acronym). There's no reason to hate Jews as an ethnicity. The reason to
hate the Fed is simple, they have a machine that prints money. Nothing to do
with Jews, nothing to do with ethnicity. If the Fed wasn't run by people but
only machines I'd still hate it, like I hate High Frequency Trading. Because
HFT lied to us about bringing liquidity to the market even though it's not a
person but a machine. A lot of people want to derail the discussion from money
to race because it's easier. But this is to do only with money and no one
wants to talk about it. That's the taboo. Money and machines should not
mingle. Do Jews use currency? Yes. Then they are victims of the Fed like every
other person is, that doesn't control that machine.

Oh, I also hate when things are passed off as Science when they aren't
falsifiable, like Keynesian Economics. Mixing things with machines _or_
formulae that shouldn't be mixed is scientificism. Fed haters want to talk
about money but there's a group of people that keep derailing the conversation
to non-money issues. You seem to be part of that despicable group. Why? Why
worship the money machine? People like you really want for there to be a
Science that can predict the future. Well guess what. No such thing.

------
moonfern
Presentation of data is hard/art. The obvious: Bahamas, $7B, population 320
000 versus US $13.4 Less obvious (I suppose) Israel (6) , $10B, pop 8,2
million and 6554 clients; Belgium (10), $6.3B, pop 11,1 million and 3002
clients India (16), $4.1B pop > 1200 million and 1668 clients

It's perhaps not a coincidence that those countries are active in the diamond
trade. Perhaps it is. But that information is in the data.

~~~
arca_vorago
Are all the "clients" listed as persons or are some of the corporations? I
know for a fact that the Bahamas is used massively as an endpoint for many tax
evasion schemes, going through shell company after shell company and ending up
there, which is then spent there (which is why the Bahamian gov doesn't really
do anything to stop it.)

------
linux_devil
Cannot see full list somehow . But thanks for uploading . Why not give full
raw data . Headline is little misleading .

------
agounaris
It's those damn Greeks again who tax avoid...look at all those righteous
Europeans honoring their obligations...

------
andy_ppp
A flat taxation system (with say the starting point for tax at £25,000) seems
like a good plan?

I also think taxes on business and taxes on individuals should also be
harmonised.

Add in a general tax avoidance rule and you are good to go.

~~~
ptaipale
What is a "general tax avoidance rule"?

Generally, tax evasion is a crime that can and should be prosecuted. Everyone
agrees with that.

Tax avoidance, or tax planning, is in Wikipedia terms "the legal usage of the
tax regime to one's own advantage to reduce the amount of tax that is payable
by means that are within the law."

So, tax avoidance is the kind of behaviour that is explicitly and clearly
legal. Now someone wants to make a "rule", apparently to somehow punish for
it?

Of course there are loopholes and quirks in any tax system, and people are
exploiting them. Particularly the rich. But the solution is to close loopholes
and make the tax system simpler and clearer, not have a "general tax avoidance
rule" which I take to mean arbitrary confiscation and punishment according to
political whims.

~~~
charlesdm
Often, the purpose of a GAAR is to stop people from setting up artificial
arrangements just for the purpose to avoid tax.

Let's say you sell something in the UK, and then route the money around the
world to make use of loopholes in the laws of various countries, only to have
the profit end up in the UK again.

Transactions for business purposes are generally accepted.

~~~
ptaipale
Yes, but this is not easy.

I heard (don't recall where) that a while back someone proposed a new tax in
Sweden: "tax on work that was avoided with the intention of avoiding tax".

I.e. a doctor was working 40 hours a week and was paying >50 % of income as
taxes, and decided that it's not worth it to work so hard if government takes
most of the proceeds, so reduced working time to 35 hours a week.

The proposal was to tax him/her anyway on the calculated income of those 40
hours, because quite clearly working only 35 hours was an arrangement just for
the purpose to avoid tax.

This is apocryphic, and anyway didn't go through even in Sweden.

~~~
charlesdm
Indeed. Those kinds of situations showcase the problems of taxation that is
too high, not the other way around.

It gets quite ridiculous sometimes, especially since 2008. Governments are
looking for cash everywhere, and they don't mind challenging whatever comes
their way.

It doesn't cost them anything to challenge arrangements, so why not try? At
worst, they lose and they will have lost some time. Civil servants are being
paid anyway. At best, someone pays up because they realise it's not worth the
fight.

I read about a case here in Belgium where there was someone who wanted to move
to Spain for non tax reasons. The tax administration levied an additional tax
on some of his income, because they said his move to Spain was motivated by
tax avoidance reasons. A judge ruled on the matter, saying they have no right
to keep taxing someone who just wants to relocate, especially when it was
pretty clear tax wasn't the motivation.

The fact is, they tried anyway, costing this guy tens of thousands in legal
expenses. He was only granted a few thousand by the court as compensation.

~~~
ptaipale
Quite. That case sounds frivolous, considering that we're talking about two EU
countries, and the whole point of EU is that people (labour) and money
(capital) can move from member country to other, without duties. But it does
not surprise me that when a government starts a frivolous case, they incur
frivolous expenses on others, and will not compensate. Belgium appears to be
at the top end of world when it comes to tax revenue as % of GDP (after
Denmark and Zimbabwe, of all places), and it is no wonder the system starts
creaking at joints.

~~~
charlesdm
In a way, they always win if we’re talking relatively small amounts (<€50k).

If you have to pay €10-20k for a decent lawyer to deal with a case, that tax
lawyer in turn will be taxed on that income at income tax/corporate tax rates
(+ VAT tends to be charged as well).

It's a pretty decent strategy for a government, but not one I would appreciate
if someone were to use it in a business setting.

------
myth_buster
Ranked countries by the money per client. CSV:
[http://pastebin.com/jvkapPT4](http://pastebin.com/jvkapPT4)

------
Thiz
Torrent?

There are more than 100.000 names in that list and plenty of people would like
to know them all. All of them.

------
justizin
Wait, reading the wrong article. Thought this was about Swizz Beats.

------
stefantalpalaru
No URL fragments, no party. It doesn't matter how fancy your js navigation is,
if each view doesn't have its own URL that can be used to recreate it, it
can't be bookmarked or shared.

