
Firefox 55 and Selenium IDE - slgt
https://seleniumhq.wordpress.com/2017/08/09/firefox-55-and-selenium-ide/
======
jgraham
There seems to be a certain amount of confusion on this thread, so just to be
sure that it's clear, Selenium itself will continue to work with future
releases of Firefox. This means that existing WebDriver-based browser
automation remains compatible with with Firefox 55+. SauceLabs', and other
testing-infrastructure-as-a-service providers' support for Firefox will be
unchanged. The only thing that will stop working is the Selenium _IDE_ which
is a XUL extension that allows writing selenium tests without writing any
code. This is undoubtedly useful to some people, but as the original post
says, there are alternatives in development that are targetting a similar
niche, so the situation is not as dire as the title implies (I imagine the
title is worded this way to reduce the number of duplicate bug reports that
the Selenium owners have to wade through on the subject of Firefox 55+ compat.
for IDE).

To expand further on Mozilla's ongoing commitment to WebDriver, we employ one
of the editors of the WebDriver specification [1], are making significant
contributions to the WebDriver testsuite, and are actively working on our
geckodriver implementation to ensure that we have a fully-featured standards-
complaint implementation as soon as possible. I also know that other vendors
are working on improving the spec compatibility of their implementations, so I
think the future of WebDriver is very promising, with fewer differences
between drivers that aren't the result of fundamental differences in the
browsers under test.

[1] [https://w3c.github.io/webdriver/webdriver-
spec.html](https://w3c.github.io/webdriver/webdriver-spec.html)

~~~
romaniv
_> there are alternatives in development that are targetting a similar niche_

Which tools are out there (open source and as easy to use as Selenium IDE)?

~~~
slgt
I am evaluating _E2E Test Builder_ and _Kantu Selenium IDE Light_ , both are
Chrome extensions and open-source.

------
jph
Selenium IDE is a tremendous help for projects that want integration testing,
and want to enable any team member to write ballpark tests.

Selenium IDE saved us hundreds or thousands of hours.

For example, my team took an existing web app with no tests, and had the
project manager and junior business analysis go through the entire app with
the Selenium IDE, writing tests.

This enabled our dev team to start coding fast, and refactoring fast.

In parallel our QA team then took those tests and used them as first-drafts to
create even better tests that were generic, maintainable, randomizable, and so
forth.

~~~
dbrgn
If you say that "Selenium IDE saved us hundreds or thousands of hours", why
not convince your company to donate 10% of the money saved back to Selenium,
so that they maybe have the resources to actually pay someone to continue
development of these useful tools?

~~~
albertgoeswoof
This is not how capitalism works

~~~
confounded
Actually it is; there are subsidies for open source projects all over the VC
funded technology industry.

------
snowl
Of course, Selenium (WebDriver) still works. However, this might be the push
for people to investigate other test frameworks. I found TestCafe by
DevExpress
([https://devexpress.github.io/testcafe/](https://devexpress.github.io/testcafe/))
is a great tool and is also completely open source (MIT!). It's a shame that
the community is so small because it's so powerful. Maybe this might be the
push that moves some more people over?

~~~
nevir
Their sites aren't very clear - what differentiates their open source version
([http://devexpress.github.io/testcafe/](http://devexpress.github.io/testcafe/))
from the paid ($500/dev/year) version?
([https://testcafe.devexpress.com/](https://testcafe.devexpress.com/))

~~~
ajb
There is a reply here apparently from a developer of testcafe, but it's
'dead'. It's a perfectly reasonable comment, so hopefully the mods can
resurrect it - and check if the account is banned for no reason (that's the
only comment it made, so I don't see why).

~~~
shimon_e
The developers are in Russia maybe it's an IP ban?

------
Osmose
I'd be curious to see what the usage stats on the IDE are; my company
(Mozilla, ironically) uses Selenium a ton, but as far as I know we write all
of our tests by hand instead of with the IDE since it allows you to use
patterns like Page objects to make your tests more maintainable in the long
run. Although the last time I used the IDE was years ago, so it may be more
flexible than it used to be.

Does anyone extensively use the IDE?

~~~
masklinn
IDE is a good way to kickstart the tests, it allows non-technical people to
create skeletons for tests which can then be touched up/prettified/refactored
by devs.

~~~
slgt
This describes exactly my/our experience. Test recording can be a great time
saver when used properly. Sure, a Java or Python guru can write a webdriver
test in "seconds", but she usually does not want too. Plus the "seconds" often
turn into hours of coding and debugging ;-)

------
jackblack8989
I have a feeling that the kind of firms that were benefiting from Selenium IDE
(hiring cheap labor to write tests as an afterthought) were not the kind of
firms that would spend money to contribute.

This isn't sustainable.

~~~
matt_wulfeck
Or the kind of engineers capable of contributing to the software.

------
danidiaz
Test recorders are an antipattern. They lure you with their "no programming
required!" siren call, but the generated scripts invaribly end up as a
fragile, poorly abstracted mess.

GUI tests suites, especially those created with recorders, are prone to become
unmaintainable beasts full of flaky tests.

This old interview with Bret Pettichord makes good points about the use of
recorders:
[https://youtu.be/s_CUPs6xAWw?t=590](https://youtu.be/s_CUPs6xAWw?t=590)

~~~
neves
All you said is true, but this doesn't stop Selenium IDE of being a valuable
tool. You just need to know when to use it. Without it a lot systems in my
company would have zero tests. Not even bad and fragile ones.

~~~
bshacklett
One could argue that bad or fragile tests can be more harmful than having no
tests at all.

~~~
danidiaz
Exactly, there is a degreee of flakiness beyond which you don't gain much
assurance from your tests and you spend more time fighting fires in the
testsuite than actually testing your app.

------
fdim
For this exact reason I made an extension for chrome that covers some of it's
features:

[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/e2e-test-
builder/p...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/e2e-test-
builder/pamfkepooglpdkepmlopejpmcpggaobo)

I'd rather tag elements of interest and record (and adjust manually) than
write everything in code.

~~~
noir_lord
Looks interesting.

------
hardwaresofton
I wonder if there's anyone here from SauceLabs or or any other company that
does browser automation as a service -- was this easy to see coming? Is
everything pants-on-fire there at the moment?

~~~
neerajdotname2
We at [http://www.trinityradar.com/](http://www.trinityradar.com/) provide
browser automation service. We stopped working with Firefox a few months ago
since less and less people are using firefox now. We run chrome browser on
cloud. Full disclosure: I work for Trinity Radar.

~~~
chinathrow
Your site says "Run tests in Chrome, Firefox, or in IE 11" \- so is that claim
still true or am I missing something?

~~~
neerajdotname2
We need to update homepage along with all screenshots since all screenshots
with Firefox are outdated now.

------
t0mbstone
Wow, that's really sad to hear!

I wonder if, instead of abandoning the project, they could put together a
patron sponsorship to fund further development?

I'm sure there are plenty of companies out there that rely on firefox and
selenium and would be more than happy to help contribute?

~~~
pjmlp
> since the start of the year, there are only 11 people who have made more
> than 10 commits, with two people accounting for more than half of those.
> Since 2016, only one person has been maintaining the IDE.

Apparently they are not.

------
sambe
I'm getting the impression that a lot of extension developers are not just
complaining about these changes but also making the decision to shut down
their development. Feels like it could be pretty bad news for Firefox.

~~~
nallerooth
I believe that this was communicated by the Firefox team more than a year ago,
so it shouldn't be news to anyone who have been maintaining their
extension(s). For all those people who developed something and then moved on
to something else, it may seem like that year passed really quickly - and the
only option left is to drop the extension.

~~~
sambe
I didn't mean to imply people are surprised. They have made the decision
regardless of the amount of notice.

------
rdiddly
Maybe instead of "will not be fixed" the headline should say "contributors
needed?"

~~~
nallerooth
Can't upvote this enough!

------
slgt
In the last hours since submitting this link to HN, I started using the
Selenium IDE made by Kantu:

[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/kantu-browser-
auto...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/kantu-browser-
automation/gcbalfbdmfieckjlnblleoemohcganoc?hl=en)

It works well for what it does and covers basic recording/replay for the core
commands. But it is a new project, and by no means a full replacement yet.
Code on Github (GPL license).

~~~
tw21
This extension uses the Webapi... so I assume it can be "backported" to
Firefox?

------
8114Y
I am very sad to hear this. Yes, this is antipattern, yes, selectors are
doomed, but I had so many good experiences of introducing automated
integration tests with IDE to QA teams, who later moved to hand-written tests.
Learning curve was small and benefits were quick.

------
fulafel
What are some good open source tools in the area of rapid development ofweb
end-to-end tests?

I know about Robot Framework, which does not record and replay but instead
uses an AppleScript type english-flavoured DSL. But still seems quicker than
scripting Selenium.

~~~
flukus
I like SpecFlow ([http://specflow.org/](http://specflow.org/)), a .net flavor
of cucumber. It's not quite rapid development, but as with others here I've
found the test recorders to be too brittle to justify the upfront time savings
anyway.

I've used it for front end testing and database/view testing.

------
Aardwolf
Might it still work in SeaMonkey? Unless SeaMonkey also plans to change the
extension mechanism...

------
bertolo1988
Why would they maintain it? Browsers are providing headless ways to accomplish
the same.

~~~
foota
The selenium IDE is a tool that records actions done in the browser for
replay, not the test driving component.

------
brian_herman
Is there like a electron for firefox xul? There is actually is
[https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Archive/Mozilla/XUL...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Archive/Mozilla/XULRunner)

edit: answering my own question.

~~~
Kliment
There used to be, but it got killed
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XULRunner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XULRunner)

------
blubb-fish
We (ab)use Selenium on headless Linux servers for task automation where no API
is available. I hope this isn't affected - otherwise I'll have to `sudo apt-
mark hold firefox`.

Suggestions for alternative software for this purpose?

~~~
simonstewart
Selenium will continue working, and is actively supported by Mozilla. The IDE
(the plugin that allowed UI-based recording of tests) is the only thing that's
not working.

~~~
blubb-fish
sure - but this might very well indicate a trend.

~~~
blubb-fish
who on earth is downvoting my comments and why?

when the developers involved with Selenium suddenly decide to just drop a
browser for one of their sub-projects then this might very well indicate a
trend - even if it's just that firefox is less actively supported in future.

~~~
MikusR
[https://xkcd.com/605/](https://xkcd.com/605/)

~~~
blubb-fish
pretty generic, I'd say ...

------
sweep3r
This is what is going to happen to most extensions. Mozilla is bonkers, doing
this. They're going to regret it.

~~~
Animats
Only about 20% of Firefox add-ons have been converted to WebExtension format.

One of the headaches is that access to local storage is asynchronous (in the
"promise" sense) in WebExtensions. As a result, if you want something based on
stored data such as a stored script or a blocklist to happen early, during
page load, you can't get it to run soon enough. This breaks Greasemonkey[1]
and NoScript.[2] WebExtensions needs some extensions for them to work. The new
features appear to be coming, but represent divergence from cross-platform
WebExtensions, and they may not be working in the release version before the
XUL death date.

Fortunately, my own add-on didn't need anything that isn't working yet, so I
had a successful port.

[1]
[https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1332273](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1332273)
[2] [https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/08/01/noscripts-
migrati...](https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/08/01/noscripts-migration-to-
webextensions-apis/)

~~~
clarry
> if you want something based on stored data such as a stored script or a
> blocklist to happen early, during page load, you can't get it to run soon
> enough. This breaks Greasemonkey[1] and NoScript.[2]

How does UBO work? Or is it broken too?

EDIT: Thanks for the replies. I know there's a webext version of UBO, but that
doesn't really explain why the problem I quoted would affect noscript and
greasemonkey but not ubo?

~~~
naibafo
UBlock Origin has a working version in the dev channel [1]

[1] [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ublock-
origin...](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ublock-
origin/versions/beta?page=1#version-1.13.9b7)

------
my2ndaccount
Selenium is fantastic for projects that need integration testing and enables
to write ballpark tests.

Selenium IDE optimized our process that helped us save a lot of time.

------
norswap
The decision for Firefox to move to web extensions is stupid. The only reason
I'm still using Firefox, which is technologically inferior (1) to webkit-based
browsers are its high quality addons.

(1) Slower & crashes more, just more UX problems on websites all around
(including youtube!).

And this Selenium thing is just another example of that.

You're really crippled in what you can do in Chrome. As a compulsive hoarder
of bookmarks (about 2k last time I checked), it's important for me to have a
bookmarks sidebar. Chrome doesn't have one, and it's not possible to add one
via an addon.

