

Miles Davis – blind listening test - mactac
http://www.noisemademedoit.com/miles-davis-blind-listening-test/

======
klodolph
Here's the flipside. Some people are never satisfied with the work of others,
and it's exactly this dissatisfaction that can drive them to hone their own
endeavors. Obviously, Miles Davis doesn't hate music and it's not as simple as
saying his expectations are too high. You can tell by the way he reviews these
things that when he listens to these records, he hears them as a jumble of
good bits, missed opportunities, and garbage.

He's not satisfied hearing missed opportunities, so he is "forced" to compose
and perform on his own terms.

> Either you play a whole chord against it, or else . . . but don’t try to
> play it like you’d play, ah, Walkin’ the Dog. You know what I mean?

> They move up in triads, but there’s all those chords missing – and I never
> heard any Spanish thing where they had a figure that went

> and you’ve got to have the rhythm section along; you just can’t keep on
> playing all eighth notes.

Imagine that every time you listen to music, there's something else you want
to hear. You have to get better at making music, or else you'll never get to
hear that thing you want to hear.

Personal anecdote: I was reading the other day and started to get
disappointed, angry even, at the kinds of stories I was reading. I kept
feeling that the stories were laden with missed opportunities for exploration,
drawn out tension that couldn't carry the weight it was given, and hackneyed
philosophy.

I got a bit frightened that I might "have to" become an author. I'm not that
good at writing, to be honest. But in order to read the story I want to read,
I might have no other choice.

(And of course, I'm glad Miles Davis was a musician and not a critic.)

~~~
the_cat_kittles
Well said. I think it's true of any field really- when you start to get good,
its frustrating to see/hear the missed opportunities and shortcomings in
other's work. I wonder if the primary driving force behind any creative
endeavor is really just "I want this", and there is no other way to get it
than to make it.

~~~
padobson
This is profound.

I think there might be a difference between enjoying a discipline and
_needing_ its produce.

I definitely code for the latter purpose and envy those who have both.

------
jeroen
It's the third out of four:

<http://www.forghieri.net/jazz/blind/Davis_1.html>

<http://www.forghieri.net/jazz/blind/Davis_2.html>

<http://www.forghieri.net/jazz/blind/Davis_3.html>

<http://www.forghieri.net/jazz/blind/Davis_4.html>

~~~
hoprocker
Very interesting. Watch the progression:

(1) "I like Louis! Anything he does is all right....That's Bobby Hackett, too;
I always did like Bobby Hackett - anything by him. Jack Teagarden's on
trombone. I'd give it five stars." September 1955, on Louis Armstrong's _Ain't
Misbehavin'_

(2) "I don't know who that was, Leonard. Sounds good in spots, but I don't
like that kind of trumpet playing....It's a good little number except for that
interlude and that tired way of playing trumpet. I'll give that three stars."
August 1958, on Don Elliott and Rusty Dedrick's _Gargantuan Chant_

(3) "Clark Terry, right? You know, I've always liked Clark. But this is a sad
record. Why do they make records like that? With the guitar in the way, and
that sad...piano player. He didn't do nothing for the rhythm section - didn't
you hear it get jumbled up? All they needed was a bass and Terry." June 1964,
on Clark Terry's _Cielito Lindo_

(4) "I don't dig that kind of ____, man, just a straight thirty-two bars, I
mean whatever it is....It's formal, man, and scales and all that....No kind of
sound, straight sound - no imagination. They shouldn't even put that
out....Freddie's a great trumpet player....if he's directed, because he must
have other imagination, other than this. I wouldn't even put that __ __on a
record." June 1968, on Freddie Hubbard's _On the Que-Tee_

------
Timothee
For people interested, I made a Spotify playlist with as much of these songs
as I could find (only 17 out of 34):
[http://open.spotify.com/user/timotheeb/playlist/05rxkOr1UWrP...](http://open.spotify.com/user/timotheeb/playlist/05rxkOr1UWrP8hN1sI9KO9)

Admittedly, I might not have always picked the exact version but it's
sometimes hard to tell. Also, it's for the 4 different sessions as linked by
jeroen: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4258777>

------
jerf
Out of curiousity, what is leading people to upvote this? It's a guy I've
heard of but don't particularly listen to slagging on a whole bunch of other
guys I haven't, and praising a few others I haven't. This is an honest
question, not a "this doesn't belong on HN" because I assume there is
something here I'm missing? I mean, yes, he's a master of the field and this
is certainly an interesting link for somewhere, but what's the HN hook here?

~~~
SwellJoe
We've discussed Miles Davis on a number of occasions here at HN. It's exactly
up our alley...or, at least, the upvotes seem to indicate it is, and I agree
that it is.

Here's why I think he's interesting:

1\. He was an astonishingly good businessman in a time when black men were
rarely given opportunities in business, even in the music industry. He is
nearly unique even in the jazz world (which was better for black folks than
most other industries of the time) for the level of his business success.

2\. He was a great leader. He's regarded as one of the best jazz band leaders
ever. He helped nurture multiple generations of jazz greats. If you can name a
jazz legend from any time until his death, they probably played with Miles
before they were a legend. An executive at a startup would do well to learn
from him how to pass on skills and help develop even greater talents than
their own (many people who played with Miles ended up being better musicians
than Miles, and pretty much all became better than they were before they
played with Miles).

3\. He's interesting. Which could be enough. Nerds like interesting people and
things.

~~~
joydeepdg
I agree with the points you make, but I really don't see anything but
(unscientific) opinions in the linked article.

This article says nothing about why Miles was a good businessman or expound on
his leadership skills. All it gives us is insight into his taste in
composition styles. That, coupled with the fact that music is a highly
unscientific endeavor and the reasons he gives for disliking some of the works
might be the exact reasons why others might love those very works, makes this
article completely useless IMHO.

~~~
SwellJoe
I found it interesting. And, I see parallels to Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.
Both of whom are merciless critics.

Does that make it "HN-worthy"? I dunno. It got voted up. I don't consider that
a sure sign of worthiness...memes and jokes would also get voted up if they
weren't ruthlessly removed by mods, and they _definitely_ aren't HN-worthy.
But, I suspect this has something to teach us...or at least provides
interesting conversation fodder in areas that most people here probably
previously had none. I studied jazz at a high school for fine arts and in
college, and Miles Davis is a _huge_ part of a jazz education; I still feel
like this gave me some knowledge about Miles that I didn't _quite_ have before
(I knew he was a merciless critic, and extremely forthright, and occasionally
an asshole; but I don't think I'd ever read it straight from his mouth...I'd
read what his band members had said about him).

~~~
VMG
The fact that his band members were still loyal to him also parallels Steve
Jobs: even though their character is often described as unpleasant, these
people still retained their allies.

Also see this econtalk episode:
[http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2012/06/jonah_lehrer_on.htm...](http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2012/06/jonah_lehrer_on.html)

> And I thought about the following. Jobs and Dylan had something in common,
> which is they blurted out often cruel things to people around them, which we
> often call--as adults we call it selfish. [...]

> [Jonah Lehrer]: It all comes back. No, no, it's a fascinating question. What
> really interests me about that is, especially in terms of Steve Jobs,
> because I think we've got this epic biography of him at this point, is the
> way it complicates our traditional notions of self-control. I think we often
> think of self-control as domain-general : If you've got self-control, you
> can exert self-control in every facet of your life.

------
ynniv
Perhaps it was editorial, but in this interview if Miles likes it he knows
exactly who did it, and if not, why he doesn't like it. It could be that he
just didn't like things he wasn't familiar with, but it's likely that he had a
clear sense of style and was versed enough to know his industry.

If he were a modern programmer he would hate Rails, but know exactly why the
bad decisions were made.

~~~
cubicle67
_If he were a modern programmer he would hate Rails_

oooh, them's fightin' words...

If languages were music, Rails would be something gloriously bombastic like
Dream Theater's live performance of Six Degrees on their Score album. C would
be BB King - timeless and simple yet complex. I think Perl would be that guy
with the funny haircut who sounds like a modem

~~~
kree10
This made me smile, but I think Perl is more like Robert Pollard/Guided by
Voices. Both seem like kind of a mess to the uninitiated (and even the
initiated). Both hit their stride in the mid-90s. And both are still around,
remain influential, and are just as productive today, even if they have a
lower profile.

------
jamestc
It's interesting that this sort of thing is seen as a guy slagging records
rather than a man just giving his (educated and experienced) opinion, like
many others who are dedicated to their craft tend to do.

We can't be that bogged down with fake sincerity/showmanship that this is seen
as novel or particularly harsh, can we? I don't know. There's nothing pompous
about this. He sounds like me when I listen to a thing or read a thing or
watch a thing, though I'll feel a little guilt about thinking those things at
times since I haven't exactly reached Miles Davis status.

~~~
colomon
Yes! Many commenters here seem to assume he is being hyper-critical of minor
details. But to me it reads like someone who legitimately thinks many of these
recordings are really sad attempts at playing jazz. I'm not far enough
immersed in jazz to be able to tell if I'd agree or not.

But it feels very much like the criticisms I hear all the time in the Irish
traditional music scene. I recently listened to a bunch of sound samples from
a duo recording by two top Irish musicians. It sounded like two great
musicians playing at the same time, rather than an actual duo. The difference
was probably all things that someone who wasn't experienced with the field
would never notice. For instance, the tiny internal rhythms of the tunes were
not syncing up.

My guess is that Davis is hearing things like that in the recordings and
legitimately complaining about them, rather than just being hyper-critical.
Especially the "What am I supposed to say to that? That’s ridiculous. You see
the way they can fuck up music? It’s a mismatch. They don’t complement each
other," comment on "Caravan". He sounds really disappointed that three
musicians he loves aren't making better music together.

Edited to add: I believe the album in question is Money Jungle. Just listened
to a sample from that track. I think I can hear what Davis is talking about,
but that might be the power of suggestion. That said, the album as a whole has
lots of really favorable reviews on Amazon.com...

------
datalus
Miles Davis has recorded some BS as well, lest we not forget. That made his
comments about why did they put out that record or record companies this or
that into some perspective. Perhaps it was part of his frustrations of his own
shortcomings at the hands of record labels.

------
wallflower
Music performance is one of the hardest things to be satisfied with every
time... I recommend this book. It talks about perfection and fear and
inadequacy. Just took it off my bookshelf to random-access read again.

[http://www.amazon.com/Effortless-Mastery-Kenny-
Werner/dp/156...](http://www.amazon.com/Effortless-Mastery-Kenny-
Werner/dp/156224003X)

~~~
rationalbeats
That was required reading at the conservatory I went to years ago. (Not by the
teachers, among us classmates. We made everyone read that we interacted with)

Got to play with Kenny at a jam thing a decade ago. Absolutely amazing
experience.

There is so much that I can extrapolate on this subject, but I believe the
greatest hurdle for a serious musician is that after you master all the
dexterity, independence and music theory, the biggest hurdle is your own
fucking self.

------
jbigelow76
Pretty neat to read Davis' thoughts on other players but this would have been
so much better if the recordings could have been embedded so we can hear what
he heard.

~~~
Timothee
If that helps, I made a Spotify playlist for some of songs of the 4 different
sessions (17 out of 34) that were linked by jeroen:
[http://open.spotify.com/user/timotheeb/playlist/05rxkOr1UWrP...](http://open.spotify.com/user/timotheeb/playlist/05rxkOr1UWrP8hN1sI9KO9)

~~~
Shoomz
Thanks for compiling this. It helps get a bit more depth out of the article
and at least strive to hear what Miles was talking about (although some of it
honestly still alludes me).

------
themckman
[http://www.guitarworld.com/archive-yngwie-malmsteen-
critique...](http://www.guitarworld.com/archive-yngwie-malmsteen-critiques-
playing-his-peers-1994-blindfold-test)

Very similar article featuring guitarist Yngwie Malmsteen. I'm not sure you
could paint Malmsteen in the same well-rounded light as Miles, however, from a
guitar players perspective, it's quite entertaining to read.

------
Q6T46nT668w6i3m
You might also enjoy The Wire's ongoing feature "Invisible Jukebox." Amazon
carries the anthology, featuring Steve Albini, Philip Glass, Sonic Youth, et
al.:

[http://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Jukebox-Tony-
Herrington/dp/0...](http://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Jukebox-Tony-
Herrington/dp/0704380463)

~~~
notJim
Sounds very interesting, thanks for the link!

>> Each month a star guest is played an eclectic and provoking series of
records which they are asked to identify and comment on, with no prior
knowledge of what it is they will hear. The conversations that ensue are often
controversial and always entertaining.

------
sciurus
If you'd like a different perspective, read "The Freedom Principle: Jazz After
1958" by John Litweiler. Litweiler is a huge proponent of free jazz artists
like Cecil Taylor and quite dismissive of Miles Davis fusion records.

------
lizzard
That was so great to read, detailed poetics from a real master. I listened to
some of the stuff he felt was "sad shit". I sure agree with him on Cecil
Taylor!

------
iezer
Miles telling it like it is. He really dug Hank Jones's piano playing and
chose him for Cannonball's "Something Else" and some live gigs, but if it
ain't working on the Clark Terry album he says so.

~~~
the_cat_kittles
I think its clear he is a dick, but its nice to hear someone be brutally
honest about people that most people wouldn't venture to criticize. He could
do it because he was the michael jordan of jazz at the time, I guess. Most of
us have to watch our mouths because you can't hate on people that are better
than you...

Also, I felt a sick pleasure hearing him rip apart eric dolphy- I have never
liked that guy! why did coltrane play with him?!?!

------
suckerpunch
Apologies: I stopped reading the moment I saw the words "Miles David".

~~~
williadc
You missed out because of a typo. Congrats.

