
Coffee Cups Are Next - petethomas
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-28/starbucks-sbux-dunkin-dnkn-brace-for-coffee-cup-bans-fees
======
satori99
A former workplace of mine mandated that no-one was allowed to use re-usable
coffee mugs at all. This was done because of the mass of dirty, moldy cups
that seemed to fill every kitchenette in a multi-floor building.

The business was a media organization and it seemed to me like reporters were
the worst culprits.

The company provided _styrofoam_ cups which were consumed at a enormous rate,
and this was deemed to be a better solution than trying to get journalists to
rinse their cups.

~~~
8_hours_ago
I feel like dirty dishes have been a problem in every place I have worked.
Have any companies wised up and installed a dishwasher in each kitchen, and
have someone assigned to run them every night? Or even just pay someone to
wash the dishes by hand?

~~~
fouc
One company of 120+ people I was at did have a dishwasher and people were
somewhat diligent in filling it up, but that didn't stop dishes from piling up
in the sink etc. The receptionist ended up being responsible for running the
dishwasher and so on unfortunately.

~~~
Scoundreller
I think that’s the solution: make it the responsibility of one person, instead
of everyone’s. And that “everyone” probably earns a lot per hour, and each
person doing their own small part just wastes a lot of start-up/ramp-down
time.

------
pg_bot
If you don't think the people who work at these companies care about making
better cups, read the following article.[0] There is a big opportunity for
making a better disposable cup, but there are many engineering hurdles to jump
over.

\- The cup has to retail for 17 cents.

\- It has to support a lid that is resealable.

\- It has to tip over and not spill.

\- It has to handle high temperatures.

\- It can't alter the taste of the liquid inside.

\- It has to be biodegradable.

\- It can't catastrophically fail if the liquid is left inside for too long.

Seems like a tough challenge to me.

[0]:
[https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/315159](https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/315159)

~~~
zeta0134
It's worth pointing out that the obvious alternative, reusable to-go cups,
need to solve an additional set of challenges:

\- Must NOT violate sanitization of the work area; cups provided by customers
should not pose any health risks to workers or other customers.

\- Should be durable enough to survive repeated visits

\- Either the reusable cup must conform to a standard size, baristas need a
way to measure liquids consistently without in-cup guides, or coffee could be
sold by volume...

\- Reusable cups should not introduce enough delay to appreciably disrupt the
flow of customers

Disposable cups have the great advantage of being standardized by the company
and solve a lot of these problems, especially the health problems. This is
just off the top of my head, I'm sure I'm missing some other great points.
This is a much harder problem than it appears on the surface; the devil's in
the details.

~~~
pg_bot
From what I've read the reusables have to be used ~70 times to be more
environmentally friendly than the current disposables.

I think the easiest win would be designating between sit down and take out
customers. Sit down customers could be given porcelain or some other washable
container. However this would increase labor costs for businesses so you don't
automatically get a free win.

~~~
baroffoos
This stat gets thrown around for a lot of different kinds of reusable products
but what no one ever mentions is what does environmentally friendly actually
mean.

When I have looked it up its always simply looking at energy usage to produce
the product when by far the biggest impact of our throwaway products is that
they end up blowing around the streets or they fall in to the ocean. And even
if you do put them in the recycling bin they mostly end up shipped to the 3rd
world to be burned or thrown in the ocean.

Also even just looking about the energy usage, 70 times is quite low. A proper
coffee cup lasts a lot longer than 70 uses. Really they don't ever break
unless dropped.

~~~
sjy
I have a few reusable, resealable glass coffee cups, and I don’t know that I
got 70 uses out of them before I dropped one as I was washing it and it
shattered. I’ll be buying plastic reusable cups next time, even though they’re
not as nice to use, because for someone as clumsy as me, the risk of breaking
a glass object that needs to be hand-washed regularly and is intended to be
used while moving around is quite high.

~~~
exclusiv
Stainless steel is ideal. Wide mouth Rtic or similar is easy to hand clean if
you don't have a dishwasher.

------
carlob
As a European I really don't _get_ take-out cups, in most Western Europe there
are two options: either you have the 3 minutes it takes to sip on a cappuccino
or hot tea, or you drink an espresso standing (both in a ceramic cup). If you
see someone walking around with a pint of hot beverage, it's a safe bet they
are American.

I heard some American friend that it's part of American culture to control
climate: drinks must be piping hot in winter and full of ice cubes in summer.
Everyone has to look like they are in a hurry and everything has to be BIG.
Combine these things and to-go insulated cups become a cultural phenomenon.

Then again it's funny that in Western Europe alcoholic drinks to go are
totally a thing and people love drinking beer on a lawn when it's nice
outside. Again, cultural differences...

EDIT: I was thinking mostly about Italy, France, Spain, Benelux, but Austria
has a pretty solid café culture too.

~~~
exodus_de
Where the hell are you from "as a European"? In Germany you can get a take-out
almost anywhere they sell coffee. Vending machines are ubiquitous. It's not
just for "Americans".

Having a coffee takes more than three minutes, especially if it's still hot.
People don't necessarily have that kind of time in the morning. Or maybe they
prefer to drink their coffee at a different place than where they purchased
it.

~~~
carlob
I'm in Italy, but I've seen it throughout Southwestern Europe. If you are in
Rome or in Paris, to-go coffee is advertised exclusively in English and cannot
be found outside of tourist hubs. FWIW vending machines are popular here too,
but they use small plastic cups with no lid.

~~~
samuell
Happy to hear that Italy maintains some proper coffee-drinking culture :)

------
alexvaut
What about returning refillable standard cups ? You return them dirty,
starbucks/mac do wash them and everytime you want a coffee you get a clean
one. It existed in France for glass bottles in the last century, it's still
like that in Belgium for beers (and works very well). I don't see any problem
to apply it for coffee. You can even think of little stickers of the brand
from where you get your coffee, those stickers will be removed in the washing
process. So if the big names can agree on few cup design/material and a
washing process/logistic, they will have a very durable cup!

~~~
mises
This will not happen; each firm will benefit from only accepting their own
proprietary cups. Also, what about sizes?

~~~
belltaco
This is where regulation can step in, like how the EU regulated standard phone
chargers.

~~~
wemdyjreichert
As far as I'm aware, the most the EU has done is look closely at doing it
(most recently in 2018). One could argue that Lightning ports are better
(particularly when compared to micro usb), and Apple seems to be slowly
switching to usb-c. A standard charger would a. prohibit fast charging
technologies or b. "pick the winner" with respect to such technologies. It
would almost certainly slow or halt the use of newer fast charging
technologies, higher bandwidth connections, etc. as they were created.

I understand bottles are different, but I felt a bit of a need to mention what
a bad idea the phone charger thing was. "Design by committee" is a pejorative
for a reason. Also, knowing governments, they would do something crazy like
mandate the standard soda cup to be small (see NYC).

~~~
tgsovlerkhgsel
> what a bad idea the phone charger thing was

The correct approach there would have been telling the industry to get their
shit together and agree on one standard (and then mandate that, not "that or
an adapter" like what they let Apple get away with), under the threat that
otherwise they'll make a standard for them.

~~~
masklinn
That's… exactly what the EU did, minus the legal mandate or adapter ban steps?

> In June 2009, many of the world's largest mobile phone manufacturers signed
> an EC-sponsored memorandum of understanding (MoU), agreeing to make most new
> data-enabled mobile phones marketed in the European Union compatible with a
> to-be-specified common EPS. All signatories agreed to develop a common
> specification for the EPS "to allow for full compatibility and safety of
> chargers and mobile phones."

> […]

> The original Common EPS memorandum of understanding expired at the end of
> 2012. The Commission reported at the time that all of the fourteen MoU
> signatories, "have met their obligations under the MoU." Eight of the
> original MoU signatories signed a 2013 Letter of Intent (LoI) to extend the
> 2009 MoU another year and, in 2014, five of those companies (Apple,
> Blackberry, Huawei, Samsung and Sony) again signed a second Letter of
> Intent, effectively extending the MoU through the end of 2014.

~~~
tgsovlerkhgsel
Doing "exactly that" but minus the legal mandate or adapter ban is like making
"exactly" a cup of coffee but without the coffee or water. And then throwing
the cup out 5 years ago, too.

Without the legal mandate and adapter ban, they might as well have done
nothing. To this day, there are two common connectors for Android phones
(Micro USB and USB C), a different connector for iPhones (Lightning), and
proprietary connectors for most feature phones.

------
SapporoChris
I was in Seoul last month. The McDonalds there had plastic coffee mugs and
there was a bin for the mugs where the trays are returned and trash is
disposed. Of course, normal disposable cup was available for to go orders.

The major issue is cost of course. Disposable cups are a cheap solution. As
long as they remain cheap and there are not other compelling reasons, few
companies are going to be making any changes.

I've heard this time and again here. It's worth reiterating, put the cost of
the pollution on the manufacturer, then changes will occur.

~~~
WheelsAtLarge
The simple and impactful solution is charging for the cup. Here in CA, we have
to pay 10 cents per grocery bag . I could buy a few thousand of them over my
lifetime and it would not impact me very much but somehow I can't get myself
to pay the 10 cents, since it's going to end up in the trash, so I carry my
reusable bags to the store all the time.

A solution that would really work would be to band cities from exporting their
trash to other cities without regards as to how it gets disposed. People would
find a way to recycle. But I know it's wishful thinking.

~~~
Scoundreller
But what bags do you use in your wastebaskets???

~~~
dannyw
I just buy a plastic bag.

Wait.

I’m not sure if this whole thing reduces any plastic or pollution...

~~~
WheelsAtLarge
It does help. The real problem with plastic is that it's ending up all over
the environment. It's very easy for plastic to fly/fall into areas where no
one can access it or is managing it.

Sending plastic to landfills at least keeps the plastic in one place away from
polluting the whole world. It's not an ideal solution but it helps.

Yes, getting rid of plastic is best but containing it to one place even if you
have to use plastic bags helps.

------
DoreenMichele
_First they came for plastic bags. Then they came for straws. Coffee cups are
next._

Straws are a hot button topic in disabled circles.

~~~
jacobolus
What’s wrong with paper (or biodegradable plastic) straws, besides costing an
extra penny or whatever?

~~~
mattigames
Why is paper the first choice? The obvious choice I think is something that
doesn't need to go to the garbage immediately but something re-usable such as
metal straws or wood straws.

~~~
mises
Carrying around a straw will cause you to end up with a sticky mess if you
drink anything but water. I guess the option is to carry it to a bathroom and
wash it after every use? No thank you.

~~~
rorykoehler
I have a straw that folds, comes in a case and has a squeegee to clean it
after use. I can drink anything and not be concerned about any sticky mess.

This one [https://sg.carousell.com/p/coffee-bean-and-tea-leaf-
collapsi...](https://sg.carousell.com/p/coffee-bean-and-tea-leaf-collapsible-
straw-215863189/)

------
caf
This article was entirely worth it just for this bit of (little-known, at
least to me!) information buried in a footnote:

 _Compostables need the free flow of air to break down. Because landfills are
sealed to prevent leakage, even a cup designed to break down quickly doesn 't
get the air circulation it needs to do so._

------
flarg
By using disposable cups, aren't coffee shops extracting value from the
environment but not paying for the privilege? Surely the correct answer is to
ban disposable cups and let the market decide who survives? My local sit down
cafe does very well with reusable ceramic mugs. Why should the likes of
Starbucks get special financial assistance from the environment when the cafe
doesn't need it?

~~~
OscarCunningham
Better yet, determine the level of damage caused by a disposable cup and
charge a tax large enough to repair the damage. If people still decide to use
disposable cups then we won't care since we'll have the money.

------
cmroanirgo
In my country (oz) there's been a general trend toward byo cups, mainly pushed
through via a brand: keep cup [0]. To my knowledge it started several years
ago in Melbourne and spread to the other cities. Many coffee shops these days
have either keep cups, white labelled keep cups, or other style. Now that
baristas are used to it, it's less of a hassle for them and is pretty much
accepted in lots of places. In my area, maybe one in 5 customers bring their
own... Many shops also give a discount for byo because their cost of a cup is
gone.

[0] [https://au.keepcup.com/](https://au.keepcup.com/)

------
colordrops
I'm curious what percentage of non-biodegradable waste is from cups and
straws. I suspect there are much bigger fish to fry. It would be a bit more
work and coordination but it seems that a standard set of 30-50 different
metal/ceramic containers could serve most packaging purposes at grocery
stores. If marketing/branding is an issue, some soy or other non-toxic ink
could be used to print labels and decoration on the packaging with each re-
use.

~~~
megaremote
It is not always about the biggest, but easiest to replace. When getting
people to do something they do not want to do, that is what you aim for.

Also doing what is possible, as to the impossible.

~~~
omegabravo
_Generally_ in Australia, environmental initiatives are welcomed. We have
sorted waste bins, banned plastic bags, banned single use straws, and recently
coffee cups have been a source of attention. I don't have any figures, but
every person I work with has a reusable coffee cup. Keep Cups [1] are a very
popular option. Unfortunately a portion of the population resist any sort of
change, which is rather natural I guess. Change is hard and the youth in this
country are typically setting a good example.

A documentary called The War On Waste [2] had a very convincing show on Coffee
Cups. This has had a decent impact on the population from my perspective.

The mindset change is probably worth while if this thread is anything to go
by. I was rather surprised that there are so many negative comments in this
thread. There has been an obvious and substantial shift towards being mindful
of your impact on the environment in Australia which is very welcoming.

This scene from Mad Men (57sec) [3] shows how previous habits are no longer
acceptable behaviour.

[1] [https://keepcup.com/](https://keepcup.com/)

[2] [https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/the-
chaser...](https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/the-chasers-
craig-reucassel-busts-huge-coffee-myth-in-war-on-waste-20170223-gujkph.html)

[3]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDIvzDGBLWU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDIvzDGBLWU)

------
mattlondon
Ask HN: Would a disposable metal cup be totally out of the question? Something
like a coke can without the ring pull lid?

With a lip around the rim I can't imagine them being any more flimsy than
paper cups. The lid and sleeve could be 100% biodegradable since their time of
contact with hot liquids is minimal, and the cups themselves could have a
25c/p deposit scheme to dissuade litter/promote collection of discarded cups.

They must be cheap enough to produce en mass for coke/Pepsi et al, and I
recently learnt that metal cans are apparently much better for the environment
than plastic since they can apparently be recycled nearly an infinite amount
of times (easy to mechanically sort too) compared to plastic and paper that
can only be recycled a handful of times before degrading too much for reuse.

Just looked on Alibaba and you can get reusable rigid steel cups for less than
a dollar a piece in quantities of 1000. Seems like the price for single-use
recyclable steel/ALU cups getting gown to the 17-20c (apparently what a paper
cup costs) range would not be out of the question?

~~~
julianozen
Wouldn’t this be pretty hot to hold?

~~~
mattlondon
Paper cups are hot to hold too - I don't think 0.5mm of paper is a
particularly great insulator, at least in my experience. A 100% biodegradable
and easily removable (not glued) cardboard sleeve would do the trick like it
does with a paper cup I reckon.

------
hannob
With reusable cups I have observed a psychological barrier with myself. I was
unwilling to use it when it felt "awkward" (i.e. I'm likely the only person
asking to use my own cup the whole day).

However lately it became more common (I live in Germany), more shops offer
discounts if you bring your own cup, more likely that the person in front of
you also has a reusable cup.

------
Humphrey
Most of the coffee shops that I frequent offer an AUD 50c (US 35c) discount if
you bring your own reusable cup. It works well!

~~~
quickthrower2
And they'll sell you a AUD$25 reusable cup.

------
ClassyJacket
Good. They are a plague. However, I admit that occasionally, if I've forgotten
my cup or couldn't bring it, I still use them. Rarely, but it happens.

The solution I want to see, for both coffee cups and shopping bags - is
reusable _shared_ containers.

I don't want to have to bring my bags to the supermarket. It's not just a
matter of laziness or forgetfulness - sure, sometimes I forget. But it's also
a matter of ability. Sometimes I want to buy food on the way home from work,
but I don't drive there and it's not really practical to bring my reusable
bags every time.

Let me pay a deposit to take some reusable bags with me, then let me just
bring them all back at once and get a refund.

Coffee cups are a bit harder since they need to be washed, but I'm sure
there's a solution.

~~~
zikzak
Shopping bags need to be washed, too. Meat juices, being set down on dirty
surfaces (bus stop, muddy driveway), left for a week in a house with pests or
vermin, etc. Most people are not going to want to reuse someone else's
reusable bag without laundering.

~~~
DangitBobby
The crux of all of these issues is that we want the benefits of containers
without the consequences.

Well, we're learning that you have to deal with it at some point, be it the
occasional washing or mountains of trash. People are going to have to just
suck it up about reusing things. As long as it's safe, people's feelings about
perceived ickiness will go away once the practice is normalized. And
eventually we won't even remember how convenient it was to just throw things
away.

------
jwlake
My favorite coffee shop in LA, barnine.us uses glass canning jars for to-go.
You bring back a dozen for a free drink. Totally ridiculously infeasible for
non-boutique shops though.

~~~
defterGoose
You should try Balconi! Not super far from Bar Nine and better coffee/price,
IMO. They specialize in siphon to-order and make mean espresso as well.

------
solatic
In our office, it's not an issue that people don't wash their cups out,
because our building has a cleaning crew and they wash the cups for us. Why is
that so difficult?

If you operate a coffee shop and don't want your customers to give you dirty
coffee cups, make it easier for your customers to give you clean cups. That
means having some kind of customer-facing sink or washing station towards
which a sign directs customers to wash their mugs, regardless of whether they
are already clean since we all know different people have different standards
for cleanliness.

If you have co-workers who ride their bikes to work, we don't hem and haw over
how smelly bike riders are going to be on hot summer days and how there's
gotta be some alternative to them riding their bikes. Instead, we install on-
premises showers. Bike riders are happy to take showers when they arrive. The
showers are kept clean by the facility's cleaning crew. Everybody's happy. Why
is this so complicated?

------
jamesb93
To me this thread encapsulates why over engineering is bad. We don't need
complex solutions to the problem of re-usable cups. We don't need an external
company that will sanitise a returnable mug for you. The solution is right in
front of everyone - buy a reusable container/mug/cup, fill it up, clean it
when you're done. It isn't hard.

~~~
goostavos
It is hard if you're lazy and irresponsible, like me. I wager the world is
filled with people like me, this, I'm counting on "over engineering" to save
me.

------
chriselles
I have to admit that while our family is as conscientious as we can be with
plastic use and recycling, I have a weak spot for coffee cups/lids.

When visiting the US recently I found the recycled paper lids quite
distasteful, in the literal sense.

For me, kicking the coffee cup/lid will be a bit harder than other forms of
sustainability.

~~~
kohtatsu
How about a reusable cup? $0.10 off at Starbucks.

~~~
electricslpnsld
When I was living in Portland it was super common for people to bring their
own mugs (usually those metal camping style cups with closable tops, but I'd
see plastic cups too) to coffee shops. The baristas would usually blast them
with some steam to clean them out then fill 'em up! Easy as pie.

------
Camillo
I honestly don't see why this is a problem. I use my straw, or my coffee cup,
or whatever, and I throw it in a trash can. It's not going to hurt any marine
mammals unless you, the city government, go and dump it into the sea.

So don't do that. If you can no longer put your trash on a barge to China, put
it on a train instead and bury it somewhere in the enormous deserts that cover
one third of the country.

I don't want to hear about how every single square inch of the desert is
infinitely precious and irreplaceable, either. When the US needed to test
nuclear weapons, they took a chunk of desert they didn't care about and nuked
it. Just take another chunk, and put garbage in it! Maybe use the same chunk,
it's been 70 years, it's probably fine now. Anyway, leave me alone.

~~~
defterGoose
Nothing, whatever, could be wrong with me. The world must be as it is,
logically. Why try to improve? And if you say we must, I'll question, flail,
pout, and then call it unjust.

Don't tell me it's my fault, for I just got here. I'll blame it on past
people, maybe a peer. My life is just fine, and if others' are not, Well,
life's just unfair, they deserve what they got!

Do it for children, you'll say, and I'll sneer, How could I harm someone that
isn't yet here? I cant be to blame for what their life might be. What have
future generations e'er done for me?

I'll mine all the minerals, cut down all the trees. Bespoil the air, then move
on to the seas. What difference make it? I've earned what I've got, and
nothing was given for which I've not fought.

And isn't this precisely what Darwin taught? May the best man win, and take
all of the pot! I'm captain, o captain of this ship called home. But I'm tired
and hot now. Please, leave me alone.

~~~
topmonk
The guy has a point, and all you do is dodge and shame. Landfills take a
_tiny_ portion of space in the US. Why are we so concerned?

~~~
khrbrt
Let's say we pick spots in the desert to store all our trash. How we do we
move all the trash from the population centers to the landfill? Fleets of
trucks and railcars which emit tons of CO2 and would be better used elsewhere
in the economy.

If we place landfills closer to population centers, then there is a much high
opportunity cost for more productive uses for that land and greater care
required for preparing the landfill so that contaminants don't leak into the
water supply.

Either way, it would be better to reduce landfill space as much as possible.

More philosophically, we can't just keep living this "throw away lifestyle".
There is a finite amount of land and resources. My generation is growing up
facing a total climate collapse, and this way of thinking is the major reason
why.

------
seer
I always feel weird reading all the drama regarding waste management in US. Of
all countries I would have thought they would understand market economics the
most.

If cleaning up waste is an externality, can’t you add in the price of that
cleaning into the thing itself, thus doing that would be an economic activity
in and off itself.

For example a plastic cup costs 1c to produce, but 1 dollar to clean up. Well
can’t you force the price to be 1.01 and be done with it. then if you clean up
after yourself you can “get that deposit back” or if you don’t care for it -
someone will, because it would earn them a dollar?

I think Germany has a system like that and I’ve heard that it works for them -
both socially and in that it keeps things clean. Though I’ve not been there
personally to verify.

~~~
jillesvangurp
Yes, Germany has deposits on bottles and cans. E.g. small plastic coke bottles
will have something like a 15c deposit. People tend to leave them around for
homeless people to collect when they are on the go. It's a nice thing to do.
All super markets have collection points where you get your deposit back as a
receipt that you can cash in when paying for your groceries. The system works
pretty well and it's pretty common for homeless people to show up there with
bags full of bottles that they've collected.

They have another system at big beer festivals and beer gardens where people
prefer to drink their beverages in glasses. Beer in plastic cups is just not
acceptable here. These glasses have a deposit as well and you swap them for a
clean and full one when you get a new drink and when you are done you get your
deposit back when you return the glass.

This could work for coffee cups too. Just charge a dollar or so for a proper
mug and simply put them in the dishwasher when people return them and give
them a clean one. Only charge the deposit when they don't return one. Drinking
from a proper mug is a superior drinking experience in any case.

------
chasedehan
As an economist I love this. People respond to incentives and making the
decision visible, not making it a tax by letting the coffee shops keep the
surcharge, and making it possible to keep prices the same (including the
surcharge) is frankly a well designed law/experiment.

~~~
xondono
It's certainly a surprise for a government to go this route, though I'm not
that optimistic.

If I understand it correctly, it just means that the surcharge needs to appear
in the price listing, so I'd assume that customers will quickly learn to
filter out that from their daily lives.

------
bogomipz
If anyone is looking for a good reusable coffee mug solution I've been quite
pleased with the Zojirushi vacuum-insulated mugs.[1]

They keep your coffee hot for 6 hours, they don't seem to impart much if any
of a taste on the coffee, they're easy to clean and they can really take a
beating.

Ergonomically it's pretty well thought out. They have a switch mechanism that
can either flip the lid open or lock it with a push of the thumb. It also
works equally well for keeping ice coffee or water cold.

[1]
[https://www.zojirushi.com/app/product/smkc](https://www.zojirushi.com/app/product/smkc)

I would be interested in hearing what other people are using.

------
lopmotr
Surely plastic waste is a local problem for only some places? America has no
shortage of empty land for landfills, but perhaps India or Singapore has more
of a struggle to put it all somewhere. I live in a country with plenty of
wasteland close to my city, and the landfills are well managed to prevent
leaching, but people are still really passionate about not using them for
plastic. Nobody seems to be able to explain why except to refer to the Pacific
garbage patch, which isn't caused by us because our landfills are on land and
not spilling into the sea (except that one time when a flooded river broke one
open).

~~~
chomp
>Nobody seems to be able to explain why except to refer to the Pacific garbage
patch, which isn't caused by us

It's probably caused by us in part. The US ships a huge amount of trash to
Asia. [1] In fact, recycling as we know it in many places in the US only works
by shipping it to Asia. For example, my city had problems when China created
new recycling processing rules, which altered the economics of its recycling
program. [2]

Its been shown that shipping this stuff over the Pacific isn't a totally clean
process. When trash goes to Asian countries, it can fall off the container
ships. And the receiving country doesn't have any standards on processing.
Impurities can be tossed to the ocean with the country's regular garbage. But
yes, Asian countries count for the lion's share of trash in the Pacific. [3]

[1] [https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/05/plastic-waste-
ch...](https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/05/plastic-waste-china-ban-
united-states-america/)

[2] [https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Can-
sputte...](https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Can-sputtering-
recycling-market-find-a-second-13505492.php)

[3]
[https://science.sciencemag.org/content/347/6223/768](https://science.sciencemag.org/content/347/6223/768)

~~~
lopmotr
That's a problem of recycling, not of using the local landfills.

Though not being accepted by China is kind of funny because they tightened
their standard for contamination so if western households actually put the
effort in to correctly cleaning and sorting their recycling, the contamination
would be low enough that it can still be sent. I've heard there's a problem
caused by people being too keen on recycling and putting greasy pizza boxes
and plastic toys in because they don't realize it's not recyclable. I'm not
sure why the collectors don't enforce strict rules and stop collecting from
violators.

------
samuell
I think there is an easy solution: More expensive (like USD 1) foldable cups,
that are expensive enough that people will actually re-use them.

In Sweden we have a model I like a lot, which is a modern, foldable version of
a traditional saami drinking vissel called "kåsa":
[https://www.dentakit.com/foldingcup.html](https://www.dentakit.com/foldingcup.html)

They are often sold in hiking / outdoor shops etc. I'm sure someone could
create a nice version suitable for take-away coffee.

------
mc32
Disposable cups at least are usually mostly paper... except for the cold
drinks of the ones with fuzzy insulation.

Deal with disposable water bottles. And while we’re at it the proliferation of
Amazon shipping boxes.

~~~
baroffoos
Disposable coffee cups and there lids seem to make up most of the trash I see
on the side of the road. Fast food boxes and cups being the other major one.

------
dagss
The US still uses landfills?

Around here (Northern Europe) (non-recycled) garbage has been burned for heat
& electricity for a long time. Garbage is sometimes shipped between cities for
this purpose (i.e. purchased)

I always assumed garbage was valuable in this way and that use of landfills
was due to unavailable tech at the time. But perhaps the burning of garbage
must be subsidized/have a high cost for processors...

------
the_hoser
I wonder if they could use the same model my local growler fill uses. You pay
a deposit on the growler, and if you bring it back (don't worry about cleaning
it or anything), you don't pay the deposit on the next 64oz of beer.

Maybe charge a $5 or $10 cup deposit?

------
Fnoord
Dopper. Bottle and cup two-in-one. I got two (both ltd. ed.). The 2nd one is
larger and insulated, and holds warm liquid for 9 hours, cold for a day. Great
if you want to bring your own (herbal) tea to work. (Can't drink too much
coffee.)

------
robertAngst
The alternative- Customers make their own coffee?

Instead of driving to a starbucks, they- make coffee at home/work?

Is the taste of starbucks that much better that we need to drive to it, use
all these extra materials, in the name of our morning drug Caffeine?

~~~
gnicholas
It is worth considering the likely second-order effects of this policy. For
example, will people who buy Starbucks/Dunkin just use pod machines more
frequently instead? Will they buy a coffee machine and make coffee at home,
using a single filter for one cup? What are the environmental impacts of these
behaviors?

I am especially poorly-positioned to answer these questions since I am not a
coffee drinker, but it would probably be a good idea for policymakers to
figure out how people will react to a policy like this. Otherwise we might end
up with a poorly-target policy that either doesn't make things better (on net)
or actually makes things worse.

------
abootstrapper
For starters Starbucks (and others) could offer and encourage the use of “for
here” glasses. My local Starbucks has a few “for here” mugs, but no glasses
for cold drinks. Seems like low hanging fruit there.

------
purplezooey
Maybe we could get a commercial with some posthumous Charlton Heston footage
saying... you can pry that coffee cup... _from my cold dead hands_

------
dharma1
What's the best reusable travel mug you've used? Easy to wash, good looking,
lightweight, durable. Those stainless steel double wall ones any good?

~~~
caf
Easily this one: [https://www.thermos.com/drink/mugs-tumblers/genuine-
thermos-...](https://www.thermos.com/drink/mugs-tumblers/genuine-thermos-
brand-stainless-king-vacuum-insulated-stainless-steel-travel-
tumbler-16oz.html)

~~~
sehugg
Yeah, these seem to get less filthy than Yeti tumblers. For those who tend to
take small sips at regular intervals, insulated is the way to go.

------
mirimir
One can get collapsible stainless cups. On key-chains. For hot liquids, you
must hold just the rim. And be very careful not to collapse them.

------
marcus_holmes
good call. While we're doing that, can we deal with the coffee pod things too,
please?

------
Spooky23
I get plastic bags... they are a nuisance that cause alotmof problems.

But the coffee cup thing is just dumb, probably less useful than even the
plastic straw crusade. There is close to zero actual biodegrading happening in
landfills. Just tax the underlying soft drinks if you have a beef with cup
consumption.

------
bayareanative
Get something like a Mighty Mug and no more throwing away single-use cups.

------
mises
I'm not sure I like this trend. Who really wants to carry around an empty
coffee cup wherever he goes? Or a metal straw? Or re-useable bags? Utensils
will be next. There is a reason we have so much disposable stuff: unparalleled
convenience.

~~~
wutbrodo
Pretending to be ignorant of externalities doesn't mean they stop existing

~~~
pishpash
The solution is to create better conveniences, not to ban them like luddites
and go back to the 18th century.

Also, first world problems.

Also, despite first world problems, first world has other more important
problems that should be solved, like drug addicts, homelessness, and crime,
maybe the people's council should focus on that instead of this?

~~~
freehunter
That's the solution, yes. But without an incentive, we'll never get there. The
first step towards creating an incentive is to make it economically unfeasible
to _not_ have an incentive. It's not like people will stop drinking coffee,
they'll demand an alternative and one will be created. If a plastic cup costs
$0.17 and a biodegradable cup costs $0.18, businesses and consumers will
choose plastic. Making plastic slightly more expensive than the healthier
alternative creates that pressure so the market will come up with better
options.

Cleaning up waste costs money, money that the maker of the cup doesn't pay.
Money that Starbucks doesn't pay. Money that the consumer doesn't pay. It's
only cheaper at the cost of the person who has to clean up the waste. Plastic
is heavily subsidized by not having to pay for its own cleanup.

------
leowoo91
That's mostly related to "hot" coffee, right?

------
umeshunni
Maybe Berkeley should spend this energy in fixing its homelessness, crime and
housing issues rather than pointless environmental virtue signaling.

~~~
fenwick67
You can care about two things (or even more)

~~~
blackflame7000
True, but you should probably do something about the bigger problem first
because there's no point in re-carpeting if the house is on fire

~~~
megaremote
So, we should never do anything until all the starving are fed, and all
murders and rapists are locked up? Genius.

~~~
blackflame7000
No, but homelessness will directly impact the environment, Genius. So while
you're focusing an iota on cleaning up cups, you'll have people shitting on
the street. Much better.

------
dsfyu404ed
So why can't we spend all this money we're wasting debating what plastic stuff
to ban figuring out how to recycle these things instead? (or down-cycle,
plastic contaminated paper pulp from cups seems like a natural fit for filter
media)

~~~
WheelsAtLarge
Plastic is hard to recycle since there are multiple types and there can be
multiple types in one product. Also generally the recycled plastic is not as
strong and usable as the original type and it's more expensive. Recycling
plastic is not the answer.

Most of the recycling claims by companies with the exception of aluminum is
used as a way to make consumers feel better about using and trashing a
product.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
But we're not talking about recycling plastic. We're talking about products
that can be recycled that are contaminated with plastic (e.g. plastic bags
that clog up machines and plastic liners for paper products that presumably
contaminate the paper pulp). It's a materials handling problem. It should be
solvable.

