
Google's plan to deter aspiring ISIS recruits - miraj
https://www.wired.com/2016/09/googles-clever-plan-stop-aspiring-isis-recruits/
======
dguido
For all the conspiracy theorists and people crying "who will they go after
next": All that's happening here is a non-profit is buying ads for common
ISIS-related search terms and displaying anti-ISIS advertisements. You know,
exactly like millions of people use Google ads for politics, selling things,
etc. They're even getting external funding from donors to buy the ads. It
astounds me that anyone could be against this. How are ads ok for selling your
shitty SaaS product but they are not ok for convincing people not to murder
one another?

~~~
panarky
Google's approach presumes that Islamic terrorism is driven by ignorant
people.

They will link to media from outside the viewer's filter bubble, so the
ignorant Daesh recruit would become educated and choose another path.

But is ignorance really the root cause? Researchers found that Islamist
radicals are disproportionately well educated, and frequently have an
engineering background.

[https://www.amazon.com/Engineers-Jihad-Connection-
Extremism-...](https://www.amazon.com/Engineers-Jihad-Connection-Extremism-
Education/dp/0691145172/)

    
    
      Using rigorous methods and several new datasets, they explain
      the link between educational discipline and type of radicalism
      by looking at two key factors: the social mobility (or lack thereof)
      for engineers in the Muslim world, and a particular mindset
      seeking order and hierarchy that is found more frequently among
      engineers. Engineers' presence in some extremist groups and not
      others, the authors argue, is a proxy for individual traits
      that may account for the much larger question of selective
      recruitment to radical activism.
    

If prospective terrorists are already well educated, will linking to
alternative viewpoints tell them anything they didn't already know?

~~~
js8
> But is ignorance really the root cause? Researchers found that Islamist
> radicals are disproportionately well educated, and frequently have an
> engineering background.

Yes, ignorance is the root cause (well.. technically speaking there is never a
"root cause" since you can always ask another round of whys). The problem is
that smart and well-educated people can become ignorant.

The studies of these people also found that they are typically big believers
in conspiracy theories. And I think that's the crux.

Conspiracy theory is like a cancer of the mind. When you believe in some
conspiracy theory, then everything that other people are saying, or evidence
they provide, is categorized as invalid, with reasoning that either those
people are part of conspiracy itself or hapless masses brainwashed by the
conspirators. So effectively, you decided to discount all external inputs on
the matter (in other words, you chose to be ignorant).

The ingenious part is that it's not strictly irrational. Even if you close
your mind to external evidence, rationality can have its field day, you can
still work things out through logic. (And for sure, external inputs can be
confusing and look inconsistent too.) It's like in a logic system which is
inconsistent - anything can be proven within it, and that limits seeing its
own inconsistency. (Luckily, the diversity of possible opinions of conspiracy
theorists significantly limits spread of their theories.)

I have seen very smart and educated people fall prey on this. Libertarians,
AGW deniers.. They tend to argue on rational/logic grounds rather than look
out for the evidence. I think we should teach people, if your theory requires
conspiracy of more than, say, 10k people, then it's a giant red flag and you
should by all means reconsider the evidence.

~~~
klagermkii
There is plenty of evidence that would put the US as the "bad guy" from a
Muslim perspective, it doesn't need one to play logic games in a vacuum to
create a conspiracy. The support of "friendly" dictators, oppressive
monarchies, and military coups that align with US interests, and the absolute
backing the US gives Israel over any other Middle Eastern country. The last
thing you want is people getting educated about that. There's no crazy
conspiracy needed to show that the US does not have the best interests of the
Arab world citizenry at heart.

And that figure of 10 000 people can't keep a conspiracy secret is predicated
on the idea that it's some kind of active plot, when just having conflicting
ideals and values can produce all the hallmarks of a conspiracy without any of
the members necessarily being consciously aware. Cf studies on name blind
hiring and diversity, where none of the recruiters would feel that they were
racist/sexist/etc, but the end result would look very similar to there being a
recruiter wide conspiracy against certain groups.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/magazine/is-blind-
hiring-t...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/magazine/is-blind-hiring-the-
best-hiring.html)

~~~
js8
This is true, but that's not what I call "conspiracy theory". To see the
difference, take Chomsky (or Assange, to an extent) as a good example. They
are very critical to U.S. foreign policy, yet they never claim something
without evidence (they don't claim for example that 9/11 was inside job), and
as such they are not conspiracy theorists.

The problem with people that have conspiracy theories is that they ultimately
defend same or worse atrocities, but done by some other party or even
themselves.

> And that figure of 10 000 people can't keep a conspiracy secret is
> predicated on the idea that it's some kind of active plot

It's just a rule of thumb, where you should set a canary and deeply rethink
your beliefs and evidence you have for them. You see, in order to maintain
belief in conspiracy theory, you have to categorize all contradicting evidence
as coming from either co-conspirators, or people who are "naive" and somehow
manipulated. This means that over time, number of people that have to be
involved in conspiracy will grow.

Of course there can be conspiracies of 10k people or more (e.g. NSA), but they
are very difficult to keep secret in practice (there was on average one
whistle-blower per 2 years on NSA spy programs). There can also be situations
that look like conspiracies on the surface, as you correctly state, but those
don't have the property that they can actively suppress dissent (which is
required to sustain belief in conspiracy theory, to reject the contradictory
evidence).

------
digdigdag
In my humble opinion, this is a bad idea. ISIS is an ephemeral problem in the
world. One does not simply become a mujahideen convert from a YouTube session.
More often than not, a lot of these guys and girls have lingering emotional
baggage due to family life, education, their personal measure of success in
life (or lack thereof), etc. What would impress me is if Google attacked the
source of the problem once a for all. For ISIS to be eradicated, there has to
be a fundamental paradigm shift in the way these people see the world. That
means providing funds for schooling, education, access to internet and more
importantly, free access to information.

Attempting to shape information into one that fits a certain narrative is what
gave birth to ISIS. Why makes Jigsaw think this would work?

~~~
angry-hacker
At least here, in Europe, the people who got recruited had already all of it.
If western social system is not enough for the youth not to get recruited, I
don't know what is.

That's the problem with current crisis. Politicians really don't know how to
tackle this problem, because no one from our culture room really understands
the problem and locals are sick and tired of hearing we need to be nicer, give
more money, more time. They already have the possibilities one can ever touch
in their hine countries.

~~~
miraj
>> _Politicians really don 't know how to tackle this problem, because no one
from our culture room really understands the problem...._

\- ah but that is not entirely true! politicians do know what to do, but it is
a tricky path. 》 move away from the Saudis & their cohorts in gulf arab
countries. ISIS, AQ, AL Shahab etc are all ideological offshoots of _Salafist
/Wahhabist_ nexus. Counter this at the root
(financially/ideologically/politically) and almost certain that 90% of the so
called _islamist_ extremism would flicker out.

this is going to be a multi year / multi pronged approach, and would need co-
ordinated efforts by all kinds of actors (i.e. western + muslim governments,
NGOs, religious groups etc). also a stellar idea would be to start giving more
support to pluralistic streams of Islam i.e. Sufi, Ismaili, (some of the)
Hanafi & like-minded faiths.

~~~
dogma1138
That's a very narrow minded historic view of "extremism" in Islam.

It is not centered around Salafism/Wahhabism even if it seems like so today.
If you look at Afghanistan then before AQ/Taliban and Salafism moved in the
"extremism/terrorism" started with Shia groups like the Hazara attacking the
socialists in Afghanistan, when the soviets stepped in and cleared them out it
left power vacuum that drew in the Salafists and the flavor of Islam changed
(Afghanistan was far from religious, it was tribal and illiterate people
couldn't read the quran and mosques outside of the major cities were rare than
wells).

Israel's operations against Sunni groups in Lebanon and their alliance with
the Christian Lebanese government and later on with the SLA left a power
vacuum for groups like AMAL and later Hezbollah form which were Shia.

The "ratio" of Shia to Sunni groups can be attributed to the power struggle
between Sunni and Shia Islam and between Saudi Arabia and Iran but 90% of the
extremist organizations in the world won't die out if you focus on Wahhabism
alone, you would only bolster their "opposition". There are nearly 100 Shia
militias in Syria and Iraq today, they are fighting ISIS but they aren't "the
good guys", neither are the Huties or Hezbollah.

------
krick
I'd imagine all these pro-privacy guys cheering right now, shouting "we told
you where this is going!" if only it wouldn't be so terrifying and not funny
at all. First they collect your personal data to show you ads, and people
don't mind, because why not? Then they monopolize the market more and more,
and basically all your data ends up in their hands, making them know you
literally better than yourself do (as you don't normally quantify your life
and are not watching over yourself really well). And people don't mind again,
because "I have nothing to hide". Then they are officially profiling their
clients to use the data for political purposes. First this might be ads, then
some more. And people won't mind again, because it's unacceptable for USA
citizen not to hate ISIS (but it doesn't really matter what is the most iconic
black sheep at the moment). Then (at the moment, actually, but just in
China[1] for now) the most used social network is running "citizen loyalty
bonus-points" program. And people are accepting still, because it's all so
cool and nice and what not.

And even though it might seem terrifying to some, I don't think "the people"
will ever actually regret this: the "acceptable norm" will just become
narrower and narrower, and everything else will be treated as a criminal
offense, a sickness that must be cured.

It makes me think that this is just how life goes, the natural way an organism
evolves. But the thought of it makes me feel sick anyway.

[1] -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI)

~~~
oliv__
That video was scary.

~~~
john_reel
But it’s not real.

~~~
krick
Is it not? There are other sources, e.g. BBC[1], but I haven't seen any
trustworthy sources that would state otherwise.

[1] - [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-
china-34592186](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186)

------
ilaksh
Information control is an extremely important aspect of real power, including
military success. Most will not believe me, but I will say it anyway: the
popular media, even in the United States, is full of war propaganda (in the
traditional sense).

Google has a direct tap into minds via search. This is problematic because
their virtual monopoly means they dominate information control and shaping.
This means Google can shape reality and is the most powerful war propaganda
tool ever deployed. Of course it is also generally indispensible in other
ways, which is the problem.

------
cannibalcoder
This seems to be just one more instance of ISIS providing a very valuable
service to western powers. In this case giving a "sympathetic" target for
testing out search based propaganda/information switching techniques. No one
could argue that this plan is bad or dangerous. They are stopping ISIS! But
wait till you search for info on Ed Snowden and get "counter" articles shoved
down your throat. And then the FBI shows up. It really is interesting how many
objectives ISIS has helped advance for US powers and how difficult it has been
for us to actually hit one of their camps with a missle. Russians seem to be
able to do it no problem, but then they have different global agendas from us.

~~~
meric
ISIS got started from funding rebels against Assad...

~~~
cannibalcoder
Yep, and Assad was against the Qatar turkey natural gas pipe line. Which would
hurt Russia, so on the one hand we want Assad out so the pipeline could be
built but on the other hand we don't want stability in the region so we hem
and haw and refuse to take decisive action in the conflict. iSIS is very
helpful in this aim. Russia gets screwed. Middle East gets screwed, we get a
new reason for tons of defense/anti-terrorism funding. This whole thing seems
to be working out pretty well! Seriously it's all out there clear as day. They
don't even bother trying to hide.

~~~
meric
US airstrikes directly supporting ISIS troops against Syrian Army.
[http://www.dawn.com/news/1284465/us-led-coalition-raid-
hits-...](http://www.dawn.com/news/1284465/us-led-coalition-raid-hits-syria-
army-as-truce-wavers)

------
syphilis2
I may be reading unwritten lines, but is Google selling its advertising
platform to the US Government as a way to show targeted people anti-ISIS
messaging?

------
hkdobrev
Imagine terrorist organisations leaders sitting down and discussing their
marketing and funding plan for ad blockers.

~~~
ArkyBeagle
ISIS makes pretty sophisticated use of media now. So I would not be surprised.
The whole thing is threaded together by fancy cell phones in the same way that
the printing press was used in the European Protestant Reformation.

------
hyperion2010
Now if only they would apply this to break the filter bubble.

------
finid
I don't actually mind using any method to fight ISIS or other terror groups,
but the part that gets me is fighting them in one place and using them to
further our goals in another place.

I don't understand that.

------
muriithi
When can we start seeing ads targeting Americans with links to the disastrous
effects of "regime changes" and invasion of countries to effect "democratic
change"?

~~~
nklas
Well said, have an upvote.

------
patall
Honestly, such projects keep me shivering at night. This time it is ISIS, next
time it is an anti-google activist group, a political movement or what ever.
If anyone should have such power, it should be the government and not a
private actor. Even then it is very brave new world like. And then they even
extend it to giving notice of persons who might be sympesizing with ISIS:
thoughtcrime, more or less. I am avare that almost everybody is doing similar
things on the net but still, this is alarming

~~~
WhitneyLand
What are you talking about? You have the same power right now, just go open an
AdWords account.

Your fear should not be of Google it should be of money. The more of it you
have the more you can get your agenda in front of people.

~~~
makomk
You have the power to do the same thing, far less effectively (because less
money and less knowledge of AdWords), for as long as Google choose to permit
you to. That's not the same power as Google have at all.

------
tmptmp
This is good. I hope Google puts this book (which the author has made freely
available now) [1] also in their results.

This way, if a relatively highly educated person (e.g. a person with
university degree) searches something related to ISIS, gets a chance to read
this eye-opening book about the roots of the evil ideology of Islam, which is
what ISIS is based on.

More important thing to note here is that with Islam we are facing similar
problems as the problems faced by the Europeans during the times of
Copernicus, Bruno, Galileo when there was a reign of the church and Bible
through kings. Fortunately and due to the enormous sacrifices and efforts made
by many humans at that time, the west has successfully defeated the vice
regime of Christianity and Church [2].

So we must understand that currently the biggest threat to the western freedom
loving society is from the vicious ideology of Islam which is at crossroads
with the modern liberal western civilized world. There is a great threat also
from the pseudo-liberals who are practicing double standards when it comes to
the issue of critical study of Islam. These pseudo-liberal Islam apologists
(whether bought and paid for or not) are hunting down any thoughtful and
legitimate criticism of Islam, its prophet Muhammad and its scriptures from
the public discourses. They are using various types of pressure tactics for
this. For example, they are labeling any criticism of Islam as racist attacks
on Muslims or as Islamophobia or as right wing acts. The freedom lovers,
liberals and humanists must understand this threat posed by the vicious
ideology of mainstream Islam. These views by Bill Maher and Sam Harris may
help understand this point in a better way. [3], [4], [5]

Should we be against Muslims? No, we must distinguish between Islam as
ideology and Muslims as victims of this vicious ideology.

In fact, it should be noted that the fight must be with Islam and not with
general Muslim population and that the fight must be on the ideological front.

[1] [http://www.faithfreedom.org/understanding-muhammad-free-
down...](http://www.faithfreedom.org/understanding-muhammad-free-download/)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_and_state_in_medieval_E...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_and_state_in_medieval_Europe)

[3] [https://www.samharris.org/islam](https://www.samharris.org/islam)

[4]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL8rZTuGfZo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL8rZTuGfZo)

[5]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46nh8_BK7ok](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46nh8_BK7ok)

------
caub
google is my religion

------
meira
This kind of News is so fun. Google supported ISIS and Al Nusra in Syria,
we'll not forget.

