
A virtual shrink may sometimes be better than the real thing - arikrak
http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21612114-virtual-shrink-may-sometimes-be-better-real-thing-computer-will-see
======
emiliobumachar
From the title, I expected some evidence that the AI was better than an actual
human. That's not the case. The comparison was AI transparent vs. AI posing as
human.

The posing AI could be arbitrarily worse than an actual human and still be
better than itself when not posing.

~~~
lutusp
> From the title, I expected some evidence that the AI was better than an
> actual human. That's not the case.

We don't know that. It's not that it's false, but that the evidence is not
clear one way or the other -- it's just speculation at the moment.

We do know that programs like ELIZA, crude as they were, made many people feel
that something worthwhile was taking place. In one case, a test subject asked
Weizenbaum (ELIZA's originator) to leave the room so she could have a private
conversation with the therapist.

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girvo
Not quite the same thing, but self studied online CBT was the final nail in
the coffin of my depression. I highly suggest checking it out for those who
struggle with it, it helped me so much.

~~~
innguest
I'm curious. Could you point me to some links? Searching those keywords did
not yield good results.

~~~
DanBC
MoodGym is often mentioneed -
[https://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome](https://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome)

There are others. Here's a bit of information from the UK advice:
[http://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/TA97/chapter/4-Evidence-
and-...](http://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/TA97/chapter/4-Evidence-and-
interpretation)

~~~
girvo
MoodGym is the one I used, I highly recommend it :)

------
lionheart
Reality is really starting to catch up with sci-fi isn't it?

Anybody else reminded of Sigfried Von Shrink from Gateway?

~~~
satori99
I only read the article headline, and it was my first thought also!

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goldenkey
Kind of peculiar that I just watched the Zero Theorem tonight. Christopher
Waltz talks to a computerized shrink in the movie.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zmDElFUUBw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zmDElFUUBw)

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minikomi
How does A virtual shrink may sometimes be better than the real thing make you
feel?

~~~
lutusp
I would take it as a hopeful sign that we can cure ourselves with a little
virtual assistance. Not unlike a spreadsheet to organize our thoughts about
finances.

~~~
minikomi
Good, tell me more about these feelings.

~~~
lutusp
It would be fun to watch two copies of ELIZA interrogating each other. :)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Tried that years ago. Gets in a loop.

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atomicfiredoll
It sounds an awful lot like the modern equivalent of ELIZA's doctor script.
I'm sure Joseph Weizenbaum is turning in his grave.

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bcaine
Here is a video from a year ago showing the virtual shrink in action (it may
be an older version):

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejczMs6b1Q4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejczMs6b1Q4)

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tomjen3
Is there a startup working on making this accessible to the average person?

I could see a huge advantage in paying, say 30 usd, a month for access to a
shrink, as I believe most people could use one, much like even those of us who
are not 300 pounds could benefit from a nutritionist.

~~~
ytjohn
It'll be a free app from Google (probably an extension to Google Now). Of
course, your sessions will remain private within Google and only archived for
automatic analysis by computers to improve the overall experience. You may
notice improvements in your search results and targeted advertising as a
result.

Shortly thereafter, Apple will announce "Tini", Apple's iShrink and Siri's
cousin.

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keypusher
Is this available online somewhere?

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kendalk
M-x doctor

?

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lutusp
> A virtual shrink may sometimes be better than the real thing

It's true, and this speaks volumes about the value of therapy as a profession.
The reason? It proves that people are competent to treat themselves, the real
meaning of virtual therapy.

EDIT: Nothing is more annoying that anonymous cowards who, out of ignorance,
consistently downvote posts consisting solely of easily verified facts.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Full disclosure: a paywall prevents me from actually reading the article.
However, to your comment, I would say that this doesn't actually prove that
people can treat themselves. If it were proven that people truly are competent
to treat themselves, I think more people would have done so. Once you are in a
cycle of despair, it isn't always easy to see any way out. Every single option
is void of hope of any sort. Broken hope.

Virtual therapy is hope in itself. I remember my parents taking me to a
therapist when I was 14-15. I got caught shoplifting and they wanted to make
sure I was ok. I really wasn't - I know now that I'd been mildly depressed for
years by that point - but the therapy was wasted. Why? A combination of the
man being a Christian therapist (still with degrees) and them making me sign a
release form - nothing I said to the man was private from my own parents. This
was not a safe place and I never trusted the man. No trust and a high
likelihood of judgement from multiple parties (and a high chance of disproval
or over-attention) made me shut up. Virtual? I'd consider that now, especially
if for free. Best of all, it is private. Safe. No one could even see me go
into the therapists office. Other people have issues trying to find a
therapist that they click with. A computer is allowed to be off, to be a
little cold, to be somewhat matter-of-fact: Humans need a bit of caring and
empathy to go along with it.

So much of the stuff online seems like a scam. My father, during a depressed
phase, spent a thousand or two on a program that basically said 'think
yourself happy'. Common advice, which doesn't work. Also basic is 'just have
faith in god (generally christian, but not always) and it will pass'. Actual
help in any form is in short supply. Good sources stop well before practical
help and tell you to talk to someone.

If my words sound a bit crazy, and not like normal people think, good. This is
the stuff I have dealt with for the last 25 years or so in varying degrees. I
generally haven't had access to a therapist or even be able to afford a
doctor, so I'm just stuck. It isn't always bad, but it is always in the
background.

~~~
lutusp
> I would say that this doesn't actually prove that people can treat
> themselves.

Yes, true, it proves nothing. It only suggests it.

> If it were proven that people truly are competent to treat themselves, I
> think more people would have done so.

Not if they think psychologists are doctors. Not if the real point is to have
a conversation with a sympathetic listener who isn't a machine. There are
plenty of reasons a virtual therapist wouldn't work, apart from the technical
content of the therapy.

> ... nothing I said to the man was private from my own parents.

I've read cases like that also, and IMHO it's criminal to create a quid pro
quo in which the advantage of a sympathetic listener is undercut by the fact
that anything can be revealed to the parents, who are often the real problem.

> Best of all, it is private.

Maybe. If this virtual therapy thing takes off, people are going to have to be
very careful about how the transactions are handled. The content of the
sessions would be a gold mine, and I'm sure people will try to offer online
therapy sessions with a way to preserve the session content for "research",
all explained in excruciatingly small print.

> I generally haven't had access to a therapist or even be able to afford a
> doctor, so I'm just stuck.

This is not to diminish your situation or pretend to understand you, but there
was a time when a sympathetic friend would have been the obvious remedy.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
"a sympathetic friend would have been the obvious remedy"

This, I think, is what a lot of people need. I've had times with absolutely no
one to talk to, I'm sure others are the same. Luckily my situation is better
now.

