
Alcohol or Marijuana? - gmays
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/17/upshot/alcohol-or-marijuana-a-pediatrician-faces-the-question.html
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cheepin
"The immediate answer, of course, is “neither.” But no parent accepts that.
It’s assumed, and not incorrectly, that the vast majority of adolescents will
try one or the other, especially when they go to college."

The article builds off of this, and while interesting, it strikes me as too
resigned that either binge drinking or marijuana use is to be expected.
Evidence firmly points that "neither" _is_ the correct answer by a large
margin, but then we spend our time looking for the second best solution. This
is a cultural problem, and the way forward is not to choose the second worst
answer instead of the absolute worst: it's to create an environment where
people can choose the best answer.

~~~
ux-app

      > This is a cultural problem, and the way forward is not to choose the second worst answer instead of the absolute worst: it's to create an environment where people can choose the best answer.
    

I don't agree. To think that we can solve substance (ab)use issues with
cultural intervention is to deny the basic biological aspects. Many species
simply enjoy altering their consciousness. Humans are very inventive in this
regard but it's common throughout the animal kingdom.

Instead of denying a basic human urge, we should stop criminalizing it.
Properly support those that have developed a dependency and move away from the
nanny state. Harm reduction should be the overarching aim.

~~~
cjslep
> Instead of denying a basic human urge, we should stop criminalizing it.
> Properly support those that have developed a dependency and move away from
> the nanny state. Harm reduction should be the overarching aim.

While I agree with decriminalization to a reasonable extent, I think you are
severely underestimating the crippling effect being dependent on a foreign
substance can be on relationships, society, and the individual. Simply
changing the legislation is part of a broader comprehensive solution. A
cultural change needs to be part of any comprehensive solution to substance
use and abuse.

A cultural change is also needed so members of society can enjoy moderate use,
without leading to abuse, of substances. Or so they are encouraged to enjoy
other parts of life besides substances, if they so choose.

~~~
ux-app

      > I think you are severely underestimating the crippling effect being dependent on a foreign substance can be on relationships, society, and the individual. Simply changing the legislation is part of a broader comprehensive solution.
    

I'm not sure how you got the impression that I am underestimating or
minimizing the potential downsides of substance abuse.

I'm advocating for decriminalization and harm reduction. This means a move
away from the nanny state and toward a society that deals with substance
(ab)use as a normal part of the human condition. Not something that can be
wished away!

~~~
rosser
_This means a move away from the nanny state and toward a society that deals
with substance (ab)use as a normal part of the human condition._

If we can't go that far, let's at least start dealing with it as a medical
issue — which it is — instead of as a criminal one.

Yes, there's crime _around_ drug use/abuse (leaving aside the use itself being
criminal where it's illegal and criminalized). In many if not most cases,
however, that crime would be mitigated, or even eliminated, if the use,
itself, weren't criminal.

------
rosser
Let's file all the, "But pot ruined my father's brother's nephew's cousin's
former roommate's life!" stories under this thread, rather than cluttering the
discussion with countless top-level threads that all offer variations on the
same kind of N=1 anecdata.

~~~
salemh
It's interesting to me how alcohol-centric our(US. But is it any diferent in a
developed country?) culture is. I can take a breather with my entire team to a
beer bar, brats and beer, but I can't go to some "bar" and take two puffs off
of a joint.

Many things in social circumstance seem to depend on booze: >lets get a drink
>lets hang out at _x_ house, bring a six pack >lets get drunk and watch __

The same doesn't work for marijuana at least in lots of verbal contexts (being
over heard by your superiors.).

~~~
symlinkk
Because it's illegal. Once it's legalized in the majority of the country I'm
sure that will change.

------
borgia
Study after study, dataset after dataset, have shown marijuana to be a less
dangerous drug than alcohol. It is also a less socially destructive drug.
We've also seen that better access to drugs leads to a lowering in overall
drug use.

If my kids were to come to me and ask about alcohol vs marijuana, regardless
of legality, I would tell them that they should aim to have small amounts of
alcohol frequently and small amounts of marijuana very occasionally. If that
put them in a situation whereby most of their life was sober, they still had a
few drinks at an occasional party and occasionally had a joint or two, I think
they'd be in good shape and still get to enjoy some great experiences that
pure abstinence would withhold from them.

It's not a good idea to use either drug heavily and frequently, particularly
when one's brain is still developing. With that being said, almost everyone I
know has drank frequently and often pretty heavily since their teens and I
haven't witnessed any of them really suffering for it.

I have, on the other hand, watched many people abuse pot from a young age and
now, over a decade later, their life and mental health is a wreck. But perhaps
they abused pot because they weren't mentally stable anyway and it just made
things worse, but that this was somewhat inevitable?

It's hard to tell, but neither drug used in moderation will do much damage and
so, legal or not, it really just remains a case of "all in moderation".

~~~
reality_czech
Marijuana is a fat-soluble drug. When you start consuming it, it gets stored
inside adipose (fat) cells in your body. When your body needs to burn some of
that fat, the drug will get released. So you never really get off of it until
months after you stop using it. In contrast, alcohol and its byproducts are
quickly metabolized and leave your body in a few hours.

Neither alcohol nor pot is good for developing brains, but alcohol doesn't
hang around. Pot does.

Alcohol is certainly a more "dangerous drug" in the sense that it's easier to
overdose on it than pot. Of course, if that's our measure, paracetemol
(Tylenol) is more dangerous than either. It only takes a small amount of
Tylenol to cause liver failure and death. And unlike alcohol, you probably
won't throw up on an overdose.

Honestly I get tired of these articles comparing pot and alcohol. They always
miss the point. Yes, they're both drugs, but that's about where the similarity
ends. Pot is a lifestyle drug because it hangs around in your body. Alcohol is
something that you can take or not take on each day as you choose. It would be
a lot better to legalize MDMA, or maybe some MDMA analogue that didn't have
the neurotoxicity issues. Incoming downvotes from pot advocates in 3, 2, 1...

~~~
rosser
Marijuana metabolites don't lurk in adipose tissue, waiting to sneak up on you
and fuck up your brain or make you unexpectedly high for "months".

Laboratory drug panels — the kind used in pre-employment drug screens, or to
test athletes — with sensitivities as fine as 20ng/mL can typically detect
metabolites up to _30 days_ after cessation, in long-term, daily users with
high body fat ratios. Casual, infrequent users will typically piss clean in
less than a week.

 _Alcohol is something that you can take or not take on each day as you
choose._

Tell that to a long-term alcoholic. Alcohol is one of the only known drugs for
which withdrawal can be _fatal_.

~~~
reality_czech
Fair enough, "months" might be an exaggeration. But "weeks" is still a pretty
long time to deal with the drug.

It is certainly not true that "alcohol is one of the only known drugs for
which withdrawal can be fatal." In reality, any other GABA receptor agonist
would have the same behavior, for the same reasons. There are plenty of them
known: barbituates, benzodiazepines, valerian, and a ton of other sedatives
they developed in the 70s and have been gradually phasing out ever since.

In fairness, it is certainly true that withdrawal from marijuana is never
fatal. But you really have to be using alcohol in enormous amounts pretty much
constantly to ever be at risk of delirium tremens. The eqivalent behavior for
marijuana would expose you to the same level of lung cancer risk as a two-
pack-a-day smoker, and for the same reasons.

------
gregpilling
In 5 years pot will probably be legal. It is in 23 states now
[http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourc...](http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000881)
Personally I think Obama will legalize just before he leaves office, we will
have to see.

I would tell my kids "neither" and suggest pot over alcohol if pushed. Alcohol
has caused several deaths of people in my life, and I can't say the same about
weed. A few kids in my high school got killed in car accidents fueled by
alcohol, and this has left an impact on me ever since.

~~~
Retra
Nobody you know has died of lung cancer?

~~~
nickysielicki
Pot can be consumed without smoking it.

------
_RPM
How about neither? Why does anyone need to pick?

------
cbd1984
Pot is usually smoked, so it has an area effect. Alcohol doesn't.

This would be less of an issue if smokers were more concerned with secondhand
smoke, and if marijuana users in particular weren't so convinced that their
drug of choice was not only harmless, but a force for good in the world. No, I
don't want to get high off of you, and getting me high without asking me isn't
doing me a favor.

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g8gggu89
Why choose between them when you can have both?

------
ekianjo
Pot is not just a matter of whether it's less harmful versus alcohol or not.
If you are hanging with people who smoke pot, you become a passive smoker as
well - this kind of issue does not happen with alcohol at the least. That's
the same problem I have with smoking in general - I'm fine with people smoking
on their own, but I loathe the attitude of rude smokers who think they can
smoke anywhere, at any time, without considering their impact on others
(including the disgusting smell that impregnates your clothes).

~~~
gnaritas
Not everyone who does it, smokes it, you have a problem with the method of
ingestion, not the drug.

~~~
cbd1984
But that doesn't fix the problem that pot usually entails smoking, and smokers
are notoriously unaware of secondhand smoke.

------
SeoxyS
Sounds to me like Alcohol has more potential to be abused and cause damage in
the short term (bad decision making, drunk driving, risk of addiction), while
Marijuana has has less high risk outcomes but more long-term negative effects
when used casually (likely to lead to a less productive and successful life).
Basically: pot makes you moderately dumber for the rest of your life, booze
increases the small risks of catastrophic outcomes for short periods of time.

I've tried pretty much everything; and then decided that Marijuana is
something I don't want to - haven't had any in 5+ years. I drink Alcohol
regularly, but seldom getting more than tipsy. I know my limits, and even if I
do get drunk, I'm smart enough to not put myself in bad situations: I don't
drive & drink, I know when to stop, and pay attention to my surroundings. I
prefer that to the idea of losing 20% of my intelligence.

~~~
ux-app

      > I know my limits, and even if I do get drunk, I'm smart enough to not put myself in bad situations: I don't drive & drink, I know when to stop, and pay attention to my surroundings.
    

At 34 I'm the same. But when I think back to all of the incredibly stupid and
dangerous things I did under the influence of alcohol I realize that I'm lucky
to be alive.

There's no way to really know, but I think that in an alternate universe where
pot is legal and alcohol is not it would be a net positive for society.
Alcohol makes many people aggressive and drastically lowers inhibitions. In my
experience pot makes people mellow and keen for some Donkey Kong and pizza!

~~~
sliverstorm
_Alcohol makes many people aggressive and drastically lowers inhibitions. In
my experience pot makes people mellow and keen for some Donkey Kong and
pizza!_

This is too narrow a viewpoint. Alcohol makes me mellow, friendly, hungry, and
more into games. I know people for which pot makes them aggressive (I think as
a result of paranoia).

~~~
ux-app

      > I know people for which pot makes them aggressive (I think as a result of paranoia).
    

Fair enough. I think the general consensus is that alcohol leads to aggression
more so than pot, but your own personal experience may differ.

Are these people only using pot, or are they mixing with alcohol or other
drugs? This is all anecdotal of course, but I've personally never seen 2
people high from pot act aggressively or want to fight etc.

~~~
sliverstorm
_your own personal experience may differ_

That's indirectly my point. You cannot make absolutist statements about
alcohol (or anything really) like you did earlier, based only on your own
observations. For you, I, and everyone have different experiences. My
experience does not disprove your experience, of course, but it does show your
experience is only a partial view.

