
When a Mars Simulation Goes Wrong - scott_s
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/06/mars-simulation-hi-seas-nasa-hawaii/553532/?single_page=true
======
duxup
It makes me wonder who they are testing with and if they are all just academic
folks testing isolated academic folks who are constantly concerned about the
test they're in.... is that really a test about an experience on Mars?

Touching exposed wires (what the heck), turning on the wrong port on a switch
(how can they not fix that them self?), nobody answering an EMERGENCY phone?
Obvious safety issues not being taken seriously by other participants...

Seems like a wonky experiment gone wrong that is pretty distant from testing a
Mars experience with people who actually might go to Mars.

------
walrus01
Sounds like some seriously amateur hour electrical shit. I've seen photos of
their setup. An off grid photovoltaic system with battery storage, and propane
generator that feeds a battery charger, is not rocket science.

Telecom people build them all the time for remote mountaintop sites with
kWh/day loads much greater than their habitat. They can't ground things
properly and have exposed wiring? For the multi million dollar budget,
inexcusable.

I could build a better power system than what I've seen pictured for well
under $80,000 in one time equipment expenses.

This article focues on how the medevac compromised their experiment. How about
their failure to adhere to proper engineering standards compromised their
experiment? Nobody wants to take the blame.

Edit: Here is a photo of their pv setup. All COTS stuff.
[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mars-nasa-hi-seas-project-
hawai...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mars-nasa-hi-seas-project-hawaii-
completion/)

~~~
exelius
Not disagreeing with you at all; just keep in mind that these conditions are
ultimately no more dangerous than camping — where exposed, temporary
electrical setups are common — which probably gave them a false sense of
safety about the setup.

Real NASA systems would need to be orders of magnitude more safe/reliable, but
I suspect this experiment was at least partially designed to identify
potential failure points that engineering solutions need to be built for (I.e.
what things can a human fix safely and what needs failsafes and self-healing).

~~~
walrus01
The Wh stored in their battery and the AC power of their inverter are
significantly larger than that you'd see camping. Maybe what you'd see
"camping" in a $90,000 50 foot luxury motorhome.

I'm guessing the habitat has a battery bank of at least eight 12v 100Ah
batteries (if AGM lead acid, or equivalent capacity), and at minimim one 4000W
sine wave inverter feeding several 120v 15a circuits. Also sounds like
somebody shocked themselves on the AC power side, maybe the generator transfer
switch, maybe just exposed wiring. Either way there are safe ways to do
temporary ac power with twist lock receptacle extension cables and
distribution boxes that are insulted up to 600 or 1000V and won't shock
people.

------
MisterTea
This sounds like a complete lack of training. I imagine the astronauts on a
real mission to mars would be instructed to keep hands clear of any live-front
electrical gear during such operations.

~~~
Johnny555
It's hard to train someone not to do something that they already know they
shouldn't do. Everyone knows they shouldn't touch bare wires, but unless you
work with electrical circuits regularly, it's hard to develop the practices
that keep you from accidentally brushing against an exposed wire.

And cutting over to the emergency generator is something that happens rarely.

It's unconscionable that they didn't have NEC compliant covers over _all_
exposed wiring. And they shouldn't even be flipping breakers (unless
interlocked) to transfer power, they should just be flipping a transfer
switch.

If they _really_ need to get to the wiring to fix something, it only takes a
minute with a screwdriver to take off the cover.

~~~
emilfihlman
I mean this is harsh but how dump are the people you work with if this is how
you see people?

Not touching a wire is easy to do. If you can't do that perhaps you shouldn't
be participating.

~~~
Johnny555
_Not touching a wire is easy to do. If you can 't do that perhaps you
shouldn't be participating._

Accidentally touching a live wire is _very_ easy to do, all it takes is a
moment of inattention when you put your hand down or a reflexive action to
catch a dropped flashlight.

That's why electrical code doesn't allow _any_ exposed wires, even in breaker
boxes in a locked utility room.

~~~
Gibbon1
Even better you can't have exposed insulated wires.

Wires have to be insulated and then they need to be covered. Either run
through conduit or with a second insulating jacket ala Romex.

------
jimnotgym
As interesting as this is, and no doubt useful for the _pioneering_ missions
to Mars, most of these concerns are rather negated by the plan to colonise
Mars. Looking at the Elon Musk plan he is talking about taking 100 people at a
time IIRC. This allows social groups to form, and allows breaks from the norm
by the ability to visit others.

If we are talking about 100's at a time, then there would be doctors,
engineers, surgical facilities, public meeting areas etc. Presumably the
initial settlement will take place in one place not in lots of isolated areas?
Early trips presumably would be setting up the space-port and living
facilities, making rocket-fuel etc. I think with work to do and with more
people and more space to wander around the social problems would be rather
easier to bear

~~~
Nokinside
Visiting Mars few times, then the public losing the interest is the most
likely scenario.

Mars Colonization in our lifetime is fantasy. Not necessarily from technical
but from purely economic perspective. You can't make near time colony self
sufficient and maintaining it would require billions in subsidies year after
year.

~~~
nickparker
Mars settlement is going to turn out fantastically profitable.

At this point it’s pretty clear that with low enough launch costs orbital
industry will be a big thing. All sorts of high performance materials can only
be made in microgravity:

* Better optical fibers with ZBLAN (happening today) and better optics in general with zero-g glass forming

* whole new alloys which can’t be made in normal g due to density separation. Think better nickel superalloys, and guess what the price per kg could be

* much larger, purer, more perfect crystals of all sorts for semiconductors, drug development, etc

* artificial tissues and organs grow better when not under their own weight

Launch costs are dropping fast today, but will eventually probably plateau
someplace north of $50/kg until we can move past chemical rockets, which IMO
is fantasy in our lifetime.

As long as launch costs stay that high, it’s strong incentive to develop
mining and refining capacity on Mars. The gravity well is so much shallower
than Earth that for any destination past LEO, you’re saving money launching
from Mars.

Martian materials won’t be used on Earth for centuries, if ever. But $50,000 /
ton Martian steel + Martian launch costs will be cheaper than ~free Earth
steel + Earth launch costs within our lifetimes, imo.

~~~
Nokinside
Mars does not have a microgravity.

Everything you say is argument for not going to Mars but develop industry in
the Moon, close Earth asteroids or in the Earth orbit. Mars is in the bottom
of big and expensive delta-v well just like Earth.

If asteroid mining becomes profitable, Mars can never compete. It has no
microgravity, no enough sunlight, corrosive soil and dust everywhere. It's
just a lifeless desert in deep delta-v.

Having small economic settlement inside near earth asteroid could be
economically sound idea. Most of the work would be done by semi-automatic
robots and people on Earth but maybe there is need for on-site crews as well.

~~~
nickparker
Mars has half the escape velocity and a much thinner atmosphere. Just from the
ideal rocket eqn the same reusable rocket flying from Mars can lift more than
4x the mass it can on Earth, and the comparison is even better when you look
at drag and engine efficiency differences.

I don’t have the expertise to really compare asteroid mining to Mars, but I’m
suspicious of the fixed infrastructure costs. Mining and refining takes a lot
of mass. Replicating that mass for each object you want to mine or flying it
from rock to rock both seem like significant costs. Perhaps we’ll find a big
Goldilocks rock that’s near Earth, will stay near Earth for a long time
without insanely expensive capture maneuvers, and contains all the materials
we want, but I think Mars has a better shot.

Mars also has much friendlier conditions for propellant manufacturing, which
is an important factor in these cheap launches.

~~~
Nokinside
Mars is red because metals in mars are oxidized (iron regolith). Removing that
oxidation requires energy. Just as on earth, most valuable metals are likely
deep under surface.

Metals on asteroids are easier to extract. Some asteroids, like 16 Psyche are
almost solid chunks of metal. Asteroid ice (oxygen and hydrogen) can be turned
into rocket fuel with electricity from solar panels.

Single asteroid close to the Earth can supply all the needs on earth for
centuries.

~~~
nickparker
Only the very surface is red[0]. Martian crust is fairly normal rock
underneath as I understand it.

16 psyche is one of the 10 most massive objects in the belt. The belt is more
than twice as far away, and transfers to it are much more variable over the
years than the fairly regular Mars windows.

Finding the “Goldilocks” object that supplies all our needs, can be regularly
reached economically, etc etc isn’t an easy problem.

Also, water gets you hydralox propellant, which is a bit of a pain in the ass.
You really want organic compounds too so you can do methalox, which is one
more constraint on Goldilocks.

[0] [https://m.phys.org/news/2013-05-curiosity-mars-rover-
drills....](https://m.phys.org/news/2013-05-curiosity-mars-rover-drills.html)

------
gonzo41
My first thought is kill one, train a thousand. Mars is a long way away and if
you have a problem its your's alone to solve.

But really how do you not have rcd power supplies in this sort of context!

Does Nasa stuff run on AC? I can't see a reason why you wouldn't want
something like mains power for the crew being 12v dc for most applications and
only a few things like an oven or high wattage device needing more. Kettle?

~~~
matt4077
> My first thought is kill one, train a thousand.

While there may be an argument to make for more risk-taking in science, with
space travel itself being among the likeliest candidates, I don't see how it
applies to this situation.

Remember that every one of these simulated missions provides hundreds or
thousands of examples for indidividual human interactions each. That's an
indication of the amount of data needed to draw applicable conclusions.
Allowing people to die could never approach those levels. Any conclusions
would also be tainted by the nature of these experiments as simulations far
more than any other events–because "is the result worth the price" would be
the dominating question.

~~~
gonzo41
I was being flippant. I was suprised by the electrical fault. That sort of
mistake doesn't really seem very NASA.

------
21
Interesting thought in the article:

> If the crew goes rogue, the people back on Earth might have no idea. Some
> degree of eavesdropping on the crew might be necessary.

------
Nokinside
I don't think testing small group dynamics with a crew who are not "the right
stuff" tells lots of useful things of what happens when astronauts go to Mars.
Especially when there is no real danger.

~~~
akvadrako
It has been suggested before that people who are "the right stuff" might
actually be poorly suited for a Martian mission. Becoming an astronaut or
world-class scientist is highly demanding and takes a lot of energy. But a
Martian trip will likely be incredible boring and stress interpersonal
relationships.

So what we really want is competent, relaxed people who can handle 6 months of
downtime in tight quarters.

~~~
Nokinside
Are you familiar with the Navy saying: Every Sailor a Firefighter? Do you
think that damage controlman rating trains mainly for boredom (because usually
nothing happens) or do they drill for surviving in a emergency?

Just like the life in the sea, aviation or in the ISS, Mars mission will be
going trough checklists and routine inspections and preparation for
emergencies. When something goes wrong it's the end of the downtime.

~~~
neurotech1
Not disagreeing with the "every sailor a firefighter", although the current
generation ISS astronauts get considerable EMT training, along with other
necessary emergency skills. Most astronauts have considerable knowledge of
electrical system as well.

Were the Hi-SEAS astronauts trained to the same level as a NASA ISS astronaut?
Unlikely.

Should a future Mars simulation have at least one highly experienced EMT, if
not an actual emergency physician? Yes.

Should a future Mars simulation have at least one person with considerable
experience in electrical engineering, computer science or avionics systems?
Yes.

------
eps
Having an option to call 911 in a pinch renders this whole setup a complete
joke. Regardless of what they are testing the mere existence of this failsafe
massively skews the results, if not rendering them useless completely.

Remarks like "I'm not a doctor, but it could be a heart attack _or something_
" don't instill much confidence in the quality of the experiment either. It's
also telling that first responders refer to them quite bluntly as "fake
astronauts."

------
txsh
What a complete waste of time. The point of a simulation like this would be to
see observe how people react in isolation and under stress. But, reading this
article, its clear that these people are acting to please the scientists
rather than reacting naturally to events.

If everyone clucks like a chicken on Day 7, is it because that’s what happens
under these conditions or is it because the software developer from New York
saw it in a movie and thinks that’s what the scientists want to see? They’re
even quoting lines from the Martian while they are in the simulation.

They are playing make believe. This is not science.

~~~
practice9
The article gives an impression of a group of people who behave like cultists.

~~~
marcosdumay
Guess what, if you give people some high purpose, lock them away from society
and force them to stick together, they start acting like cultists.

It may still be useful to see what kind of cults develop there. If I had to
guess, I'd say the experiment planners want to discover how to manipulate
people into the right kind of cult.

------
liquidify
Article was way too long.

