
MacBook Pro is a lie - ktamiola
http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/7/13548052/the-macbook-pro-lie
======
marricks
This is just a bit mysterifying as there review of the MacBook pro sans touch
said it was perfectly capable for final cut pro, Photoshop, etc. They used the
CPUs in the correct thermal envelope for the laptop, except maybe the sans
touch model which they said was an air replacement.

The real use case for 16 GB + of ram is video editing or tons of memory hungry
VMs. Edge cases. Not only that but people begrudge them for not waiting for
Canonlake* with LPDDR4, but they'd miss the holidays and have to launch in the
middle of the year! Intel is continually dropping the ball with deadlines. Is
it that hard to wait for a refresh which will likely have 32 GB ram next year?

These laptops seem more than capable for most professionals, The Verge just
seems to be giving in to the perennial fanboy hate whenever Apple does
something new...

~~~
wodenokoto
When was a notebook ever the choice for running multiple VM's or heavy editing
of video?

This is what I don't understand about the current criticism.

I bought my current mac 7 years ago, and though it has dedicated 3D hardware,
it was never meant for heavy gaming or rendering 3D movies, and everybody
loved it. It also came with very little RAM, even for the time.

But today it is apparently a travesty that MacBook Pro doesn't offer tons of
memory and high-end 3D graphics. When did they ever do that? The hall mark of
the pro has always been the form factor, battery life, screen, mousepad.

~~~
GrumpyYoungMan
> _When was a notebook ever the choice for running multiple VM 's or heavy
> editing of video?_

There has been a category of laptops that are classified as mobile
workstations for quite some time now, including IBM/Lenovo's retired W5xx
series and current Pxx series and Dell's Precision laptops. The MacBook Pro is
(or was) considered to be Apple's equivalent.

~~~
detaro
And just for comparison, a 2010 Lenovo W510 already supported 32 GB. The Pxx
series currently can do 64.

(But they are heavier, power-hungry and more complicated than the MacBook Pro,
which IMHO isn't really in the "mobile workstation" class, but . But in
comparable form factor you get 32 GB right now in various ThinkPads. Some new
models only offer 16 as well, maybe for similar CPU availability reasons. But
you have the choice if you need it.)

------
no1youknowz
As a developer, I really don't see a MacBook Pro any more. They should have
really called it a MacBook Air Pro.

Also being a MBPr 2012 owner. When thinking about an upgrade, I was wanting
MORE of the same but BETTER specifications.

This is what I am seeing, when I look at the MBP 2016.

\- No magsafe

\- No glowing apple logo

\- No startup chime

\- No SD card slot

\- No HDMI

\- No USB 2/3 ports

\- No 32GB / DDR4 ram

\- No Nvidia graphic card

\- Reduced battery

\- Reduced Keyboard travel

There is nothing that shows "Apple innovation" in this Macbook Pro 2016.

As such, no upgrade from me. I am more than happy to wait another 18 months
for the next refresh. I really hope Apple takes on board why developers really
loved the previous MBP line.

~~~
stinos
Getting rid of that dreaded chime and glowing logo are the actual Pro-moves :]

~~~
ithinkinstereo
I'm sad to see the glowing logo go. That was a defining element of MacBooks
for me. Visually speaking, nothing really differentiates MacBooks from their
Samsung/Dell/etc clones anymore.

~~~
iammyIP
It was just visual pollution for the people not using the computer. A public
disservice. Would you like it, if i walked around and shine a flashlight
randomly into your face?

It however also was a good way to separate polite people from the more
mindless ones, depending on wether or not they put a sticker or other
obstruction on it.

~~~
striking
Wow, I didn't realize others felt so strongly about this. Now I feel like a
rebel for just not covering my glowing Apple logo. That's a good way to start
the day.

After attending a hackathon yesterday, I _was_ going to cover my Mac with the
stickers I picked up. But just for you, I'm going to leave the logo uncovered.

~~~
iammyIP
No problem, if i would be in a situation where it's constantly in my
peripheral view, i would talk to you.

Would you refuse, i would not start a fight, but just look for another place
or another way to block the view for myself.

If i was Santa Claus, you would however get no gift.

~~~
kybernetyk
>No problem, if i would be in a situation where it's constantly in my
peripheral view, i would talk to you.

That sounds like a pretty heavy safe space invasion. I don't think I'd
appreciate you talking to me about my hardware preferences.

------
rufius
This is a sincere question: what do people need with 32 GB of RAM on a dev
laptop?

I work on an MBA 11" with 8GB and I'm using Parallels to run Visual Studio
2015 for a work related project (100k+ C#/C++ codebase). Other than that work
I do some Haskell and C++ work locally. It chugs along just fine and I don't
feel like I'm hurting with it compared to compiling on my dev box at work.

Are people just spinning up a lot of VMs? I've got a beefy box at work for
when I need to do heavy lifting because I value battery life on the laptop
over doing it locally. Additionally, I like the static context - work on code
at work ok beefy workstation then go home and remote in if I still have more
to do.

TL;DR: what are people's use cases for 32gb on a laptop if you're a developer?
Why not remote into big box?

~~~
e40
_Why not remote into big box?_

<sigh> Because when you demo, being tied to a box on the other side of the
planet is asking for trouble.

I really can't believe the "why do you need that much RAM?" question still
gets asked.

~~~
wattt
You can't remote in on most flights, as one example.

------
S_A_P
This macbook pro is incompatible with my current set up and will not be
purchased, as I had intended to prior to the launch event. I have 4 mag safe
power supplies(I travel with one and I keep one at my desk) it was bad enough
when you switched from mag safe one to mag safe 2. I use my Macbook pro to run
logic and record and mix audio. I have an internal 256gb mini SD card that
stores my samples. I will need dongles for my external ssds, my 2000 dollar
UAD apollo 8 and several other USB synthesizers and drum machines. I have 8
years of logic projects that Im not intereted in converting to some other
format. I dont think that Apple could have fucked over anyone who makes music
much harder.

Oh, and that touch strip? too small for anything but emoticons. I went from
being semi excited about this macbook to realizing just how mid grade this
thing really is. If the next update doesnt put the features I need back in
place, this will be the last of my apple purchases. I've owned a mac pro, 4
macbook pros, every iphone save for the 3g. I like that you make them out of
nice materials and strive for better. But you are now just making luxury
laptops for consumers, not pros.

------
jsjohnst
I shouldn't be surprised I guess, but I'm tired of seeing tech press make such
ignorant articles re: tech.

> this year's Kaby Lake

You mean the processor which was announced two months before the MBP? The one
that isn't available in a mobile processor with quad cores?

> lack of 32gb RAM option

You mean the fact that Intel doesn't support LPDDR4 on Skylake (or even Kaby
Lake until ~2018) mobile processors? So was Apple supposed to just switch to
desktop class processors in their unrealistically thin laptops? Have you used
a laptop with it, they typically run extraordinarily hot and have terrible
battery life, even with laptops with twice the battery.

The real story that the new MacBook Pros reveal is that Intel is _REALLY_
dropping the ball. If Apple thought they were ready to switch to ARM, my money
is on they would've. The fact they didn't indicates to me that despite every
effort, they couldn't yet (yet being the opporative word).

(Now waiting for the downvotes from the folks who'd rather be cry Apple has
lost its way rather than actually think about what could be the reasons. Don't
get me wrong, there's a lot to bash Apple for, but the above two aren't them)

~~~
RotsiserMho
I'm pretty sure the mobile CPUs support at least 64GB of DDR3. So the memory
subsystem would be desktop class but they could use the same mobile CPUs.
Seems to me that might have been an option if they didn't also shrink the
battery.

~~~
jsjohnst
Actually, they don't. Per the Intel data sheet [0], the Skylake mobile
processors don't even support DDR3, they support DDR3L (lower power variant of
DDR3), LPDDR3 (what the MacBook Pro uses), and DDR4. Here's the max system
memory per memory type:

DDR3L: 16gb (page 20)

DDR4: 32gb (page 21)

LPDDR3: 16gb (page 21)

So the only way Apple could've supported more than 16gb RAM would've been to
support DDR4. [1]

I am far from an expert, but I believe DDR4 is only available in an SO-DIMM
package [3]. Sure, we would all _LOVE_ Apple to support upgradeable memory
again, but that's very likely not going to happen. Just think how much thicker
(teh horror!) the laptop would have to be to support that! [2]

I also suspect that Apple is using the Y-processor line which only supports
LPDDR3 memory (per page 19), so that further negates the ability to use DDR4
memory. Again, this part is unconfirmed, but would make sense.

[0]
[http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/...](http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/datasheets/6th-
gen-core-family-mobile-u-y-processor-lines-datasheet-vol-1.pdf)

[1] I'm still curious how Intel claims the processor supports up to 64gb RAM
on the short form of the processor specs. I could not find a configuration in
the detailed data sheets that allowed 64gb of RAM.

[2] (sarcasm intended there, obviously it could be easily thicker and most
people wouldn't mind)

Edit:

[3] Seems I likely am wrong. DDR4 is supported in a "Memory Down"
configuration as well. This would've allowed Apple to use DDR4 memory if they
used a U-processor line and also used DDR4 memory. From what I am reading
online (no official sources, so not linking to more speculation), this
would've had a battery impact of up to 20%, thus very likely why Apple didn't
do it. More info on "Memory Down" here:
[http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/...](http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-
papers/ia-system-memory-down-paper.pdf)

------
cobralibre
_Many people were clinging on to their aging MacBook Pros in the vain hope of
seeing a major spec and performance upgrade that simply didn’t materialize,
and that 's been frustrating._

This statement is worth pausing on. Many users with "pro" needs (developers,
video editors, photographers, etc.) replace their computers on a 3-4 year
cycle. It's reasonable to expect significant enhancements related to those pro
needs at the end of that cycle.

Furthermore — and this is crucial — any new computer has to serve those pro
needs for the _next_ 3-4 years.

~~~
mercer
I'm one of those people. Thankfully I can still do my work on my MacBook Air
for a while yet, but my original plan was to buy a MacBook Pro _last year_.
Now I'm just hoping I can comfortably continue using my MBA and pray that next
year they either lower the prices, do something fancy to the specs, or,
ideally, release a _proper_ MacBook Pro (fat chance...).

Worst case scenario I'll just buy the Pro they release next year, though. They
probably know that there are many like me who would still go for the Pro even
in its current incarnation, so I'm not keeping my hopes up that next year will
be anything but an incremental update to the current, shitty Pros.

------
gog
There is no magsafe to usb-c adapter which makes the power adapter coming from
my Apple Thunderbolt display unusable.

\- have to buy a new power adapter so I don't have to carry one to work and I
am still left with an unused wire appendix from the display

\- have to buy a Thunderbolt to USB-C adapter for the display

\- have to buy a new cable to connect iphone or USB stick, HDD, etc. to the
laptop

\- have to pay the premium for the touch bar although most of the time I use
the machine it is closed and connected to my display and keyboard

\- I can not connect the headphones from iphone 7 because of the missing
lightning connector

Hopefully they will realize how broken this is now for existing users and fix
some of this nonsense next year.

~~~
reustle
> have to pay the premium for the touch bar although most of the time I use
> the machine it is closed and connected to my display and keyboard

Well at least this one is optional. I'm hoping more people opt for the
function-key model, so they actually release one with 4 usb-c ports instead of
2. Why did they do that, anyway?

~~~
gog
Unfortunately it is not optional if you also want the faster CPU.

------
kriro
I understand all the criticism and have held off on pre ordering one myself
(still shopping for a good Linux laptop with solid battery and
resolution+light weight) but some of the comments seem a bit ridiculous to me.

16 GB of ram as the bare minimum for web development...come on now. Is there
anything obvious I'm missing? That's even enough to run a couple of VMs with
full web stacks and some testbrowsers + git and whatever editor you use

~~~
nathancahill
Ok, but will it be enough in 5 years? My current MBP lasted 5 years. I'm
counting on my next one to be around for 5 years as well. It's something I
have to think about since I can't upgrade it to 32gb down the road.

~~~
throwawayReply
5 years ago 16GB was fine, 16GB is still fine now.

My prediction: In 5 years 16GB will be fine.

Why? Because RAM requirements passed from "We need more, it'll speed things
up" to "We've got enough" a while back, and there just isn't much you can do
with the extra. Once you're no longer space constrained it just ceases to move
the needle.

I'm not defending Apple here, but generally it's hard to think of something
that would require 32GB of ram that doesn't better belong on a server. Once
you get to that kind of size you'll probably want ECC or stable uptime or
other features you'll get on an actual server rather than a machine you turn
on and off several times a day.

~~~
zaroth
"Who would ever need more than 16KB/MB/GB...."

It's not a question of whether 16GB is sufficient. It's a question of whether
16GB is an reasonable _maximum_ for a "Pro" machine.

OK, forget about expansion and maybe adding 16GB RAM and a few more TB of
flash in a couple years. Clearly that ship has sailed.

But 16GB RAM is the absolute minimum I would buy with a new machine today. For
that to be the Pro's maximum is wrong.

------
feedjoelpie
With that new Windows Subsystem for Linux feature, I'm honestly starting to
consider a post-Mac future for my dev work. I'm sure there are a bunch of
things about Windows 10 that will annoy me, but the value proposition of Mac
is starting to disappear as Microsoft does better and Apple does worse. If
Apple didn't tie iOS dev to its own desktop OS, I might be taking Windows for
a spin right now.

~~~
pmarreck
I recommend just keeping your dev environment in a VirtualBox or VMWare VM
that is mobile between physical machines and OS'es. That way you at least get
some insurance, AND you get snapshotting and easy backups.

~~~
WayneBro
Gee, I wish I could run the Mac OS in a VM though. Too bad Apple won't let me
do that unless I'm running it on their overpriced, under-powered hardware with
the one supported configuration: running the Mac OS as the host OS.

(Sorry, I won't call it "macOS" anymore because my marketing services don't
come free - I'll continue to refer to it as "the Mac OS" since it's the OS
that you can only run on a Mac.)

Windows has a better business model for everybody. You can run it anywhere you
want without restriction. It's also a vastly superior OS both technically and
with regards to UX for Pro and Business users. For those that enjoy UNIX -
Apple is still shipping 10 year old GNU utils with the Mac OS and meanwhile,
Windows now comes with Ubuntu...and it's fucking awesome!

~~~
pmarreck
> Too bad Apple won't let me do that unless I'm running it on their
> overpriced, under-powered hardware with the one supported configuration:
> running the Mac OS as the host OS.

Somewhat agree: If Apple considers iOS the current "cash cow", then they
should just open-source "macOS" and thereby expand its potential userbase.
They could even charge to "certify" certain hardware or VM configs for it,
while leaving the rest of the troubleshooting on uncertified hardware to the
masses.

> You can run it anywhere you want without restriction.

Hahahaha _no_. I can copy my entire MacOS install/drive to literally any other
Mac, or copy it to an external drive and hook it up to ANY Mac, and it boots
just fine off it. It doesn't force me to re-validate, it doesn't force me to
call Apple, it essentially _doesn 't assume I'm guilty until proven innocent._
You absolutely positively _cannot_ do this with Windows, which makes moving
installs (such as to new PC's) ridiculously painful (to any experienced Mac
user such as myself). And having to revalidate every time you upgrade your own
hardware? LOL.

> It's also a vastly superior OS both technically

OK now you're literally smoking crack. The OS with the most security holes, by
far, in history, is "vastly superior." The OS with such incredible UX
oversights as _completely removing the ability to shut down from the UI_ if
you enable Fast Boot mode (which is really just a renamed "hibernate"), is
_superior_ for Pro users? That's just my most recent encounter of hundreds.
LOLOLOL. (I use a Windows machine for gaming. Because that's all it's good
for- it's too fucking _naggy_ to tolerate if I want to get any actual work
done. And forced reboots _without_ saving the entire state of the apps you're
running are fucking stupid... at least MacOS has a facility to save the entire
state of a running application if there is EVER a need to involuntarily
reboot... Which there almost never is.)

> For those that enjoy UNIX - Apple is still shipping 10 year old GNU utils
> with the Mac OS

Apparently you don't use a Mac at all for development or you'd know this:
_Everyone who 's anyone_ who enjoys UNIX dev on MacOS has long since moved on
to Homebrew [http://brew.sh/](http://brew.sh/) which puts all those latest
utils into userspace.

------
MrScruff
Skipping the whole pro-vs-not-pro debate entirely, I never understand the
whole 'pros are smart with their money and Mac is poor bang for buck'
argument.

If a pro is someone who earns their living through using a computer, what's
more important? Saving a few hundred dollars on a laptop? Or purchasing the
machine that you feel allows you to work the most efficiently?

~~~
marricks
Every windows laptop I've bought has had a faulty hinge or hard drive failure.
I've seen similar things with my girlfriend's computer. My next laptop I want
to be more expensive but last half a decade.

Sadly XPS 13 and other "leading" windows laptops seem to fall victim to the
same less than perfect manufacturing. Apple charges more, but there laptops
are also well built.

Something I use every day for a long time I don't want to save a few bucks on
it the short term.

~~~
WayneBro
Every Windows laptop I've bought has worked perfectly, with zero defects.

Same thing for my wife. And we're both heavy users who use our machines all
day for work. We've had every brand of PC and never had any problems. Ever.
Not even kidding a little.

The only problems I've ever had were with Apple hardware. Their laptops would
overheat and the Mac OS would crash often. In every Macbook Pro I've had, the
batteries died sooner than any other laptop brand.

Macbook Pros are terrible overpriced crap. (But they're really thin now, yay!)

Furthermore, upgrades and repairs are next to impossible or a real pain in the
butt with Apple hardware. One of my Apple machines is a 2012 Mac Pro that I
want to get a new video card for - but can I go to Amazon and just buy one off
the shelf? No. I must go to www.macvidcards.com to get a card that works
fully. I must also buy special, non-standard internal power cables for it.

~~~
marricks
Of course we're just talking anecdotes, but large surveys back up that Apple
just makes more reliable hardware,

[http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/laptops/LaptopReliability](http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/laptops/LaptopReliability)

~~~
WayneBro
Sure, but none of my problems with Apple hardware have had anything to do with
reliability.

The fact that various Macbook Pro models get very hot is a well documented
issue. I wonder if we can get some data on how much the Mac OS crashes though,
relatively?

Apple's extreme efforts to lock you into their hardware and prevent upgrading
are also very well known.

That last one is my biggest gripe. They are anti-choice and ultimately, anti-
consumer. The Apple hardware lineup is small, sterile and boring to me.
There's so much more, better and newer stuff going on outside of Apple's tiny
little world.

------
bryanlarsen
It's interesting what a difference a name makes. If they had called it the
"MacBook Air Pro", there would be far fewer complaints.

~~~
provemewrong
Apple MacBook Air Pro with Retina Display. Rolls of the tongue nicely!

~~~
Veen
Rolls of mine more easily than the official name: "MacBook Pro 13-inch, Two
Thunderbolt 3 Ports"

~~~
rhinoceraptor
I prefer "MBP13-2TB3".

------
TurboHaskal
Semantics, duh.

I personally love the latest MacBooks (Pro 2016 and 12"), they are beautiful
and the most Apple-like computers they have released in years.

I say that as an owner of a bunch of Thinkpads. It's not that I favor form
over function, but I kind of like Apple being Apple.

~~~
mercer
They are pretty, aren't they? What makes you feel they are the most Apple-like
in years?

My research into alternatives made me think the Thinkpads are probably the
best option. But I just can't buy them because they're so ugly (to me). I feel
really silly about that but, dammit, if there's one object where I want it to
be pretty as well as functional, it's the laptop I stare at most of my day...

------
elcct
They should change its name to MacBook Leisure. It should be very fine piece
to watch videos on the go and touch bar could be used to skip boring parts.

~~~
nashashmi
It does make you wonder if an actual pro book will ever be released.

------
throw2016
I think Apple mostly choose excellent components to build their devices, be it
the screens, ssds or cameras. For a buyer getting an iPhone or Macbook is
usually the best way to get hold of a well put together and high quality
device.

Sure you can get the same quality in other devices but it takes research and
most devices of equivalent quality are usually as expensive as Apple devices
and sometimes even more.

The Dell XPS, Surface book or HP Spectre are not cheap or without issues. Even
equivalently configured Asus Zenbooks with i5 and not core-m are not cheap.

For instance the previous generation 13 retinas were the only laptops with 28W
i5 SKUs. The rest of the i5 ultrabooks in the Windows ecosystem were the
standard 15W SKUs, so with the Macbook 13 Retina you got slightly better
performance and Iris graphics.

The current dissappointment is valid as people rightly expect far more from
Apple than boring incremental updates. The magsafe ommission is head
scratching and 1299 to 1499 is a huge jump.

I think people are getting disenchanted with paying for 'let's make things
thin' brand of engineering that adds little to no value to end users.

------
i_don_t_know
A few days ago there was an article that some Thunderbolt devices don't work
with the new machines. A little disconcerting but since I don't have any I
don't care.

But I do care about my USB-A devices. I don't mind using an adapter because I
only need it at home on my desk. However the description of the Apple USB-C to
USB-A adapter says it doesn't work with some devices.

Great. Now what?

[I'm also a little ticked off that they don't include an adapter in the box.
Most people will have legacy USB-A devices and should need one.]

CORRECTION: They don't say anything when I add the adapter to one of the new
MacBook Pros during the purchase process.

But they do include the caveat when I add the adapter to the 12" MacBook which
I've also been looking at (sorry, German page):

" Mit dem USB-C-auf-USB-Adapter kannst du dein MacBook mit USB-C-Anschluss an
viele USB-Zubehörgeräte anschließen, z. B. an deine Kamera, einen Flash-Drive
oder an ein Lightning auf USB-Kabel, um iPhone, iPad oder iPod aufzuladen und
zu synchronisieren.*

*Einige USB-Zubehörgeräte werden nicht unterstützt. "

The last sentence reads: Some USB accessories are not supported.

~~~
matthewmacleod
_However the description of the Apple USB-C to USB-A adapter says it doesn 't
work with some devices._

I'd be genuinely surprised by that though. Isn't it just a passive adapter?

~~~
i_don_t_know
Correction: They don't say anything when I add the adapter to one of the new
MacBook Pros during the purchase process.

But they do include the caveat when I add the adapter to the 12" MacBook which
I've also been looking at (sorry, German page):

" Mit dem USB-C-auf-USB-Adapter kannst du dein MacBook mit USB-C-Anschluss an
viele USB-Zubehörgeräte anschließen, z. B. an deine Kamera, einen Flash-Drive
oder an ein Lightning auf USB-Kabel, um iPhone, iPad oder iPod aufzuladen und
zu synchronisieren.*

*Einige USB-Zubehörgeräte werden nicht unterstützt. "

The last sentence reads: Some USB accessories are not supported.

------
wineisfine
Are the developers at Cupertino themselves not fed up with this? Working on
2013 Mac Pro's or perhaps, they're all on hackintoshes.

------
baldfat
I am still surprised that we have people acting surprised by Apple. Weren't
people says the same thing:

1\. Three years ago before they had finally released the over due Mac Pro?

2\. Final Cut Pro X?

3\. After iPod and iPhone took over Apple's products?

~~~
mercer
When my ex and I finally broke up I wasn't surprised in the least. I was very
sad though.

------
mark-r
I wonder if Apple has realized that this is their New Coke moment?

[Yes, I realize 3/4 of the audience here is too young to remember:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke)
]

------
blackoil
I would love for Dell/HP to seize this moment and announce a completely new
line/brand of laptops segmented from current brands to just compete head-on
with Macbook. Just 3-4 models <Dellbook> 13, 15 and <Dellbook> Pro 13, 15,
match Apple build quality 1-1, make them high price/margin. Up the specs
kabylake, 32 GB, support both Windows/Linux. Seems we have some pent up demand
for this.

~~~
mercer
If they can get the trackpads to work as well as the Mac's, and offer some
kind of Apple Care equivalent that isn't shitty (maybe they already do?), I'd
be interested.

------
ktamiola
Lack of ports, or stripping of aforementioned is not the point here. It is
Apple's inconsistency, which is the most worrying thing here.

~~~
jpalomaki
Recent iPads and iPhones should have gone the USB-C route.

------
chrisfarms
As surprised as I am to say this; I think Google could steal a large chunk of
the developer market overnight with some slight changes to Chrome OS.

I needed an emergency machine last week (My 2011 Pro finally died), and I
opt'd for a £200 Chromebook (EDGAR), thinking all I need is a browser and a
terminal right this second and I'd worry about what Apple is doing later.

A solid Linux laptop with working sleep, working wifi, great battery life. Tad
underpowered but hey it's £200. I'm _really_ impressed.

If Google relaxed the constraints a little on the OS, or supported a Crouton-
like workflow for containers without having to stick it in dev-mode, they
could make A LOT of developers very happy.

~~~
mi100hael
I can't recommend Dell's Developer Edition laptops enough. I switched from a
MacBook Pro about 6 months ago and haven't run into any of the usual obnoxious
Linux-on-a-laptop headaches like sleep or wifi.

[http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-
lapt...](http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-laptop)

~~~
mercer
I'm leaning toward the XPS but I keep hearing that the trackpad is pretty
shitty. Can you confirm/deny that?

~~~
mi100hael
It's not as good as the force trackpad on the current MBP, but it's not bad,
either. My only real gripe is that the physical click is a little heavy &
loud. I'd put it in the same ballpark with prior generations of MBPs that
physically clicked. You can always go play with one at a Micro Center or other
box store.

------
audunw
More of this? Does he really contribute anything new to this discussion?

My impression is that the MBP 2016 is simply released at an unfortunate
timing. If you look at the MacRumors buyers guide, you can see that the
release schedule for the MBP has historically been less then a year.

If they can get back to that schedule, they should be able to release a MBP
with the specs people are nagging about around the time when a suitable Intel
Processor with LPDDR4 is available.

As for other common complaints.

\- Ergonomics: When has Apple ever had an ergonomic keyboard? If you're
working long stretches, connect a proper keyboard and external display for
gods sake \- GPU: Apple has never pushed the boundaries there. If this hasn't
been an issue for pro users before, I'm not sure it should be an issue now. \-
USB-C only: Typical Apple. Could pay of in a few years though. A world where
everything is USB-C is definitely worth pushing for, and it's good that Apple
sets an example there. In the meantime I think the 3rd party dongles look
quite nice and very convenient. You could potentially have less cable mess by
just getting a dongle with just the right ports for you:
[http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/01/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-
adap...](http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/01/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-adapters-
hubs-2016-mbp/) \- Lack of Magsafe: Sucks, but OK in the context of pushing
for a industry-standard charger for everything. Third party cables can pick up
this use-case just fine.

So I think the heart of the matter is that Apple has chosen to optimize the
power envelope of the Pro line, which has caused them to have to postpone
upgrade of processor/RAM. This might seem stupid, but I think it's the right
choice in the long term. I think the way things are going, pro users will
offload more work to servers/cloud and external GPUs making the niche for a
really powerful laptop too small. I also think Apple is making the right
reason in focusing more on SSD performance than RAM size. SSD is becoming the
new RAM, and RAM is becoming the new cache. RAM is going to be more tightly
bonded to the CPU, even in high performance applications. Especially once
Intel 3D-Xpoint/Octane hits the market.

So what we're seeing is a generation shift in the tech, and Apple is simply
skating to where the puck is going.

~~~
AlexandrB
> \- Ergonomics: When has Apple ever had an ergonomic keyboard? If you're
> working long stretches, connect a proper keyboard and external display for
> gods sake

The old MacBook Pro keyboards were actually _really good_. Almost as good as
the old (~2005) Thinkpad keyboards and definitely good enough for extended
typing. While the ergonomics are obviously suboptimal when screen and keyboard
are stuck together at least typing on the keys was pleasant and accurate.

------
kstenerud
I'm glad glad glad the magsafe connector is gone. Every single one I've had
has gone flaky at the magnetic connector, such that you have to fiddle with it
to get just the right alignment for it to charge.

~~~
tcfunk
Funny how different two people's experiences can be. The magsafe is one of my
favorite parts of my macbook (hardware-wise), and I've never had an issue with
them connecting correctly.

~~~
XaspR8d
Yeah the magnetic bit is the one part that _does_ survive for me. Don't get me
wrong, the cords are shit and constantly frayed, detached, or overheated on
me, but I sure miss MagSafe now that I've left Apple products.

~~~
pmarreck
Well, if you have a USB-C port that charges your device, this does exist,
although some reviews say the magnet is currently weaker than the MagSafe's
was:

[https://smile.amazon.com/Griffin-BreakSafe-Breakaway-
Chromeb...](https://smile.amazon.com/Griffin-BreakSafe-Breakaway-Chromebook-
replacement/dp/B01CQTK6GU/)

------
iambrillant
Whoa, what happened to the verge? Just scrolling through that page and my
browser has downloaded ~100MB!

~~~
mcjiggerlog
Damn, you weren't kidding - what the hell?

------
ungzd
I wish these "tech journalists" copying nagging about "some lake" and "16 Gb"
from each other again and again to use "comparable Windows alternatives" til
the end of their lives. Even if these alternatives are hottest tablets with
detachable keyboard and mouse and not Lenovo SuperfishBook Pro.

------
wilsynet
The worst part of the new MacBook Pro is the crappy keyboard. It's not
unusable; it's just such a chore to use.

Thank you Apple for making a computer for people who don't need to type very
much.

------
EmmEff
IMO, the majority of "pros" that have made the most noise about the latest
MacBook Pro aren't pros at all.

------
votr
If Dell releases an XPS 15 in Q1 with Kaby Lake, discrete graphics, and 32GB
ram, I'm in.

~~~
romanovcode
And hopefully trackpad that is just as good.

------
oldmanjay
What is it that makes people thinking whining endlessly about Apple is
interesting?

------
GBKS
Really don't understand this. Why can't those demanding Pro people just get
iMacs. It's cheaper and supports 32GB of RAM. Of course, it's stationary, but
pretty sure those specific professionals are mostly stationary anyways because
they use multiple monitors. This while freak-out about the MBPs ist just
silly.

~~~
satysin
> Of course, it's stationary

You answered your own question. I need a machine that is portable that I can
hook up to multiple monitors at home and at work, and that I can use on the go
for meetings, customer visits, etc.

How the hell will an iMac help me there?

~~~
GBKS
But that's a matter of priority then, isn't it? If portability is important
then you have to sacrifice some power.

I'm curious, what do you run on your computer to max out a brand-new MBP with
16GB of Ram?

I currently do design and dev work on a 3 year old MBP with 8GB Ram. This
includes running VMs for I.E. and back-ends for various projects, using Xcode
to build apps, editing Sketch files with 50+ screens, photo editing in
Photoshop and motion graphics in AfterEffects. Naturally I don't everything at
once, but even with a combo of some of them, everything runs just fine. So
this makes me genuinely curious what people do that these brand-new machines
can't handle. And are those demands really the majority use case? If not, then
there is an argument for having different machines for the demanding work
loads and maybe a smaller laptop or even iPad for meetings.

What are your thoughts?

------
gizmodo59
Surface ([https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-
book...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-
book/overview#surfaceconfiguration)):

128GB/Intel® Core™ i5-8GB- $1,499

With tax the price comes to 1650. (I do realize its touch screen) Is M$FT
trying the Apple's path?

------
Theodores
The 16Gb RAM 'let's throw the toys out of the pram' problem has not been
handled very well.

The Skylake CPUs I have seen all seem to be limited to 16Gb max RAM. Allegedly
there are desktop variants that take more. The Skylake CPUs also have fewer
cores in them than one might expect, e.g. two cores (with hyperthreading so
'4') in a i7 CPU, for years one has expected four cores (with HT, so '8') in
anything branded 'i7'.

There is NVMe for the SSD and I am sure the Apple folks have some nifty driver
to swap to disk a lot quicker than in the olden days. So main memory is a bit
more like 'cache' in that there is no need to be that hung up on the
specifics. If your main program can reside in 16Gb RAM with operating system
then all is good. Throwing more memory at the CPU is not how it works on
Skylake.

Apple could have avoided the latest CPUs but imagine the outrage of 'old
hardware' The new CPUs are low power, you get all day battery. I also wonder
whether those people complaining about a lack of RAM are after selling website
clicks or doing real work.

~~~
strictnein
Really not sure where you're getting your info. The Skylake series is not
limited to two cores and can handle more than 16GB. With DDR3 it's 32GB, with
DDR4 it's 64GB. This is true of their mobile and desktop parts.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_(microarchitecture)#Li...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_\(microarchitecture\)#List_of_Skylake_processors)

Edit:

Maybe you're just confusing Skylake and Kaby Lake?

