
CDC Now Recommends “Use of Cloth Face Coverings” (DIY Masks) - exolymph
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover.html
======
cameldrv
The CDC has no credibility. Here's some real advice:

1\. Don't go out unless absolutely necessary.

2\. If you go out, wear the highest specification mask available to you.

3\. If you go out, wear the best eye covering available to you. Sealed goggles
are ideal, but even a pair of sunglasses will provide protection.

4\. If you have to improvise a mask, try to use a filter material better than
cotton. Some ideas: Vacuum Bags, HEPA filters, Furnace Filters, Car Cabin Air
Filters. Try to make a mask that seals well against your face.

5\. If you have extra masks, donate them. You may want to wait to donate them
until hospitals start routinely disinfecting and reusing their PPE, because
otherwise the masks you donate may get used once and thrown out. Masks donated
later may make more of a difference.

Do not feel shame about wearing a medical mask out. The most useless mask is
the one that sits on a shelf while its owner is outside getting infected or
spreading infection. You are not denying a healthcare worker a mask by wearing
one. You are being responsible and not getting infected. If you don't
infected, you don't go to the hospital and infect a healthcare worker. If you
don't get infected, you don't spread the virus to anyone else, and they don't
go to the hospital either.

Look in your garage. Many people have a few masks left over from painting or
sanding or wildfires.

~~~
timr
Do not wear medical-grade masks, folks. Every mask you wear is taking an
essential piece of equipment from someone who both _knows how to use it_ , and
_desperately needs it_.

I can tell you that I see lots of people walking around the streets of my city
with medical grade masks, worn improperly. Even if they are wearing them
properly, I routinely see people pull the mask down with their bare hands to
talk, use the phone, etc. Those masks are wasted.

As someone who has spent years working in a lab environment: _you don 't know
how to wear a mask_. You don't. It won't protect you. This guidance here is
explicit that the reason they're asking people to wear masks is to _protect
other people_. You can do that with a t-shirt wrapped around your face.

~~~
cameldrv
This is yet more propaganda. If you want to know how to wear a medical mask,
you can find out on YouTube. It's not rocket science. Yes, without a
professional fit test, you may not get an absolutely perfect seal, but you can
do a quick pressure check by exhaling and feeling whether the mask is holding
pressure. If you do this pressure check you will be getting very substantial
protection from the mask.

You wearing a mask is not taking anything away from anyone. It is rational
protection. Many people have (non medical, but N95 or similar) masks sitting
in their garage.

Those masks are not doing anyone any good sitting around. If you have masks
and are going out not wearing them, you are putting healthcare workers lives
at risk, because you could be spreading or contracting the virus. You or
someone else will then go to the hospital and potentially infect a healthcare
worker. The best way to protect that healthcare worker is not to give them a
mask, it's not to expose them in the first place. If you want to donate them,
that's a great thing, but the main thing is that masks should be worn, not
gathering dust.

If everyone had been wearing masks for the past month, we wouldn't be in this
situation. Let's not perpetuate the nonsense.

~~~
DanBC
> It's not rocket science.

Tell us how to correctly don and doff a surgical mask, or a filter, and we can
tell you how many steps you got wrong.

~~~
exolymph
Do you sincerely believe that people are so stupid that even if you give them
instructions, wearing masks will be a net negative?

~~~
DanBC
It's not about whether people are stupid or not. It's that donning and doffing
PPE is difficult. We know that qualified, registered, trained, healthcare
professionals struggle with it. Already in this thread we've seen someone post
a link to a video about putting on and taking off a face mask and that video
had incorrect, dangerous, procedure.

This video shows him using bare hands to touch the front of his mask to take
it off.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776002](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776002)

Literature suggests that 80% of HCP infection is caused by incorrect doffing

[https://twitter.com/drbencb/status/1236635924274057216?s=20](https://twitter.com/drbencb/status/1236635924274057216?s=20)

[https://twitter.com/cmac_evans/status/1236689340123754496?s=...](https://twitter.com/cmac_evans/status/1236689340123754496?s=20)

Because it's so hard we see healthcare settings strongly encouraging
"dofficers" / "spotters" \-- a second person to watch you taking off your PPE
to make sure you're doing it right.

[https://twitter.com/heatherevansmd/status/124443236962241741...](https://twitter.com/heatherevansmd/status/1244432369622417410?s=20)

[https://twitter.com/Dolores_McKeen/status/124432789143070720...](https://twitter.com/Dolores_McKeen/status/1244327891430707202?s=20)

~~~
cameldrv
You make a lot of good points, but I believe they are somewhat overstated for
the community case as opposed to say an Intensivist intubating someone. The
amount of virus exposure is quite different. If the average person reduces
exposure 90%, this is a huge win. If an ICU doc reduces exposure 90%, he gets
infected the first day.

Duffing protocol is very important if your PPE is massively contaminated. I’m
not as convinced if you may have been breathed on by a carrier at the
supermarket.

~~~
DanBC
> The amount of virus exposure is quite different

That's what the CDC previously said! This post is you agreeing with the CDC.

~~~
cameldrv
What the CDC said was that the level of risk was not high enough to warrant
non HCWs to wear N95 masks.

If you're an HCW, no question, you had better be PPEing up to the max and
following donning and duffing procedures to a T. You have huge exposure, and
if you screw up, you're very likely to catch COVID.

If the level of risk is so high that I am not legally allowed to leave my
house except for specified purposes, you would have to be utterly foolish to
think that wearing the best mask available to you is not an utterly obviously
correct precaution. You really need to be incredibly gullible to not see this.

If you're not an HCW, in March, as an American, you had about a 1/1000 chance
of being a LAB CONFIRMED case of COVID. 1000 people are dying every day of
this in America, and the numbers keep going up. If this continues, we will
have millions of deaths from COVID.

Being an HCW now is like being a Formula 1 driver. You had better have a
crapload of safety gear, and even then your risk is very high. Your chance of
dying in a car accident in the next month is roughly 1/500,000. Your chance of
dying of COVID next month is perhaps 1/1000\. That's 500x the risk of driving.
Your argument comes down to "Well, since you're not driving in a Formula One
race, there's no need to put on your seatbelt." If you wouldn't dream of
getting behind the wheel without a seatbelt, why would you go outside without
a mask when the risk is 500x higher?

------
erentz
Lots of people need to be fired once this is over. This has been known for a
long time. There is no excuse for it that stacks up except incompetence. You
can argue about funding but being honest and factual is free.

~~~
shawnz
> This has been known for a long time.

Is that true? I don't want to be inflammatory here but as far as I've seen
there isn't much research to show that laypeople's use of masks is effective
and there have even been some possible mechanisms suggested that could even
make it worse than wearing no mask.

And furthermore I don't think that just because healthcare workers are
recommended to wear masks that makes it "obvious" that they would be effective
for laypeople too. Healthcare workers have full sets of PPE and also strict
procedures and facilities for using them/putting them on/taking them off/etc
that could potentially nullify the usefulness of that PPE if not followed.

If there really is research to show otherwise then I would be very curious to
see it. Most of what I've seen so far specifically focuses on their use by
healthcare workers.

EDIT: One promising datapoint for the pro-mask camp is that infection rates do
seem to be slowing down in the Czech republic since making mask-wearing
mandatory there. For a while there didn't seem to be any change but looking at
the data again today, there does seem to be a decrease.

~~~
mantap
It's blindingly obvious. We've known that people with _only_ subclinical
symptoms (such as cough) spread this since very early on. People were told to
cough into their elbow. We also know that _almost nobody coughs into their
elbow_ , even some public health officials have been caught on camera at press
conferences coughing into their hands[1]. A cloth mask is surely better than
coughing into your hand or worse into the open air.

[1] see this video [https://news.sky.com/video/coronavirus-medical-officer-
cough...](https://news.sky.com/video/coronavirus-medical-officer-coughs-while-
advising-on-shaking-hands-11950219)

~~~
shawnz
Lots of people thought it was obvious that sodium intake caused hypertension,
or cholesterol intake caused heart disease. Both ideas were since discredited.
I am weary about calling anything in science or medicine "obvious",
_especially_ in a time of panic like this

~~~
meowface
Do you not see how terrible of an analogy that is?

~~~
shawnz
No? The point is that there were "obvious" mechanisms for why it should be
true, but then non-obvious mechanisms which ended up making it false. Without
data we can't know the impact of those non-obvious mechanisms.

~~~
meowface
Yes, there is some truth to that, but there are different forms of obvious.
The effects a food or drug may have on the body after being ingested are never
truly obvious. The internal workings of the body of an animal are extremely,
extremely complex; there are so many factors involved. This is why there's
never been any sort of consensus on nutrition.

Meanwhile, if someone were to say "it's obvious that wearing nitrile gloves
and properly disposing of them reduces the chance of viruses coming into
contact with your bare hands", true, this is not 100% _obvious_. There are
potential failure modes here, there could be some unknown unknowns. But in
general, this seems pretty obvious. We've been using gloves for these purposes
for millennia. We have no reason to think they're ineffective at preventing
harmful particles from touching your bare hands.

The same is true of a face mask. If a virus is likely to infect you by
entering your nose or mouth, then covering your nose and mouth is likely to
reduce the chance of infection from the virus. This has again been known for
millennia. It's the reason why Asian countries have been wearing face masks
since the start of the COVID-19 news. It's why every national and global
health organization is now advising that people should start wearing masks.
And it's evidence that the Surgeon General of the United States _very likely
knowingly lied to the US public, possibly causing unnecessary deaths_.

~~~
shawnz
> "it's obvious that wearing nitrile gloves and properly disposing of them
> reduces the chance of viruses coming into contact with your bare hands",
> true, this is not 100% obvious.

I think this is a little bit unfair of an analogy because the question is not
really "does it reduce virus particles from coming into contact with your bare
hands", the question is really "does it reduce your chances of
getting/spreading the virus" which is not so straightforward.

> If a virus is likely to infect you by entering your nose or mouth, then
> covering your nose and mouth is likely to reduce the chance of infection
> from the virus.

That mechanism does seem obvious but what if the reduction is only a few
percentage points or something? Consider how the virus particles could
potentially pass right through many coverings, and they do nothing for your
eyes or other bodily openings. It could be totally counteracted by, for
example, having virus particles trapped in a moist space in front of your face
for hours at a time. I have no idea if that's true but I'm just trying to say,
there are plausible mechanisms that could negate the effectiveness of masks
outside healthcare settings.

> It's the reason why Asian countries have been wearing face masks since the
> start of the COVID-19 news.

Asian countries have acquired a culture of wearing face masks based around
beliefs, not data. That is not a demonstration of face masks being effective,
unless you are trying to say that since implementing such a culture we've seen
a reduction in viral infections there. That would indeed be a good argument
for masks.

And keep in mind that mask-wearing in Asian countries didn't begin with
COVID-19. It has been popular since the SARS outbreak at least.

------
renewiltord
I was talking to some folks about the ill-advised CDC and WHO recommendations
on masks, the resulting poor handling by the US government, and the rampant
cargo-culting by people on Twitter, Reddit, and HN who decided to just signal-
amplify the misinformation from US government agencies without critical
thought.

While we were doing that, I decided to go see what Taiwan's timeline looked
like. Pasting here for your sake.

New Year's Eve: Rumours of viral pneumonia in Wuhan. All inbound flights from
Wuhan subject to inspection

Jan 5: All Wuhan travelers exhibiting upper respiratory inspections are now
subject to screening

Jan 20: First positive test

Jan 21: Mask export ban, production ramp-up

Jan 31: Taiwanese government forced monopsony on masks (1/3 reserved for
healthcare personnel). Announces rationing first week of Feb

Feb 2: Taiwanese defence personnel dispatched to bolster staffing at mask
factories

Feb 6: Mask rationing starts

Feb 15: Mask production by end of month projected to be 10 million / day.
Taiwanese population: 24 million

Mar 9: Mask production 9.2 million / day

Mar 16: Production 10 million / day

Mar 22: Production 12.6 million / day

April 3. Taiwan: Population 24 million. Density: 649 people/sq.km. First case:
Jan 20. Cases: 348. Deaths: 5

April 3. Florida: Population 21.5 million. 136.5 people/sq.km. First case: Mar
7. Cases: 10268. Deaths: 170

Did we have to make the choice between the economy and lives? Did we have to
choose between grandma and the dollar? Could policy have changed the outcome?

You decide.

~~~
nojvek
Ramping up PPE and ventilators at the first hint of an infectious disease
would have saved tons of lives.

The second thing was closing borders. We wouldn’t need a massive lockdown
inside the country if only negatively tested people were coming in.

Airlines would have taken a big hit, yes, but you’d still save the economy. It
would be way cheaper to pay the airlines for all their potential lost fare
than 20% of the population unemployed.

The president still not wearing mask in public says it all. He won’t take this
seriously until he himself gets infected and gets seriously ill. The
negligence is atrocious.

~~~
renewiltord
The President is not a generally competent pandemic-response person. His
strengths are elsewhere. But the people who have held the jobs that were
intended to be experts on this failed and are failing. The rot is
institutional because bureaucrats always outlast elected administrations.

Naturally, the "useful idiots" that the bureaucracy exploits are an additional
problem. I haven't yet determined if they're a minor problem or if they
provide the weight of opinion. If you have a thousand people who will say
"Masks don't work" if the CDC says "Masks don't work" are the thousand people
more dangerous or the CDC more dangerous. Probably the CDC, I think.

------
collinmanderson
Official Recommendation:

Cover your mouth and nose with a cloth face cover when around others

\- You could spread COVID-19 to others even if you do not feel sick.

\- Everyone should wear a cloth face cover when they have to go out in public,
for example to the grocery store or to pick up other necessities.

\- - Cloth face coverings should not be placed on young children under age 2,
anyone who has trouble breathing, or is unconscious, incapacitated or
otherwise unable to remove the mask without assistance.

\- The cloth face cover is meant to protect other people in case you are
infected.

\- Do NOT use a facemask meant for a healthcare worker.

\- Continue to keep about 6 feet between yourself and others. The cloth face
cover is not a substitute for social distancing.

[https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-
si...](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-
sick/prevention.html)

~~~
throw-away_42
Official Presidential Recommendation:

"You do not have to do it," he said. "I don't think I'm going to be doing it."

~~~
throwawaysea
Let’s be clear it wasn’t just Trump saying you don’t need masks. Everyone,
Democrats and Republicans, both politicians and private individuals, were
amplifying the same obvious lies. Why people didn’t trust their own common
sense and reality around them is beyond me.

~~~
coolgeek
Let's be clear, that was a quote from Trump _yesterday_ , when he was
announcing the recommendation

edit: And to be clear, this wasn't a one-off quote. He made repeated
variations of it. At best, he confused the message. At worst, he contradicted
it.

------
throwawaysea
It is tempting to blame solely the CDC, but I think there is just as much to
blame to go around on the general public. Almost everyone was getting on their
soapbox on social media to shame people who were wearing masks or trying to
acquire a mask.

Yes I know there’s a difference between an N95 respirator and a cloth mask.
But that’s beside the point. If the virus can be transmitted over an air gap,
then people should be able to buy whatever face covering they want to contain
the risk to themselves or their family maximally. And there’s nothing morally
wrong with them trying to acquire the highest degree of protection possible,
including N95 respirators.

Predictably someone is going to respond to this comment and say that the mask
is more necessary for medical professionals or that it is more to prevent
particles from exiting your own mouth towards others. The former might be true
but it is totally okay for people to want to prioritize their own health. And
as for the latter - clearly the reverse transmission is very possible
(particles into your mouth/nose) and it is just a matter of time before
everyone acknowledges this more openly and starts recommending N95s (most
likely once supply constraints are alleviated and the lies are no longer
needed).

Just as a reminder: the WHO, possibly at China’s behest, claimed even as late
as the middle of January that the virus wasn’t transmissible between humans, a
month after Wuhan doctors observed exactly this. It took several weeks for
airborne transmission on particles to be acknowledged. And then weeks again to
note that the virus can linger on various surfaces and materials.

The lesson to be learned is to trust personal judgment and common sense. Be
self reliant, and don’t put faith in random authorities who’ve done little to
earn your trust.

EDIT: this article discusses the WHO’s failures in this whole fiasco and how
they are a political organization, more than a trustworthy medical
organization: [https://www.ft.com/content/2a70a02a-644a-11ea-a6cd-
df28cc3c6...](https://www.ft.com/content/2a70a02a-644a-11ea-a6cd-df28cc3c6a68)

~~~
ericb
We've built this "masks should be saved for healthcare workers" strawman
ourselves with bad policy.

Masks should be _plentiful_. Citizens wearing masks _also saves healthcare
workers_!

------
exolymph
March 28, a mere six days ago, in response to rumors of an upcoming policy
change: "CDC does not have updated guidance scheduled to come out on this
topic. See current CDC guidance regarding the use of facemasks"

[https://twitter.com/CDCgov/status/1243947313715961857](https://twitter.com/CDCgov/status/1243947313715961857)

------
vehemenz
I have 30 or so surgical masks that I bought in early January (I read the
news), but now that consumers can't access those supply chains, I'm afraid to
donate extras.

~~~
pureliquidhw
This may be unpopular, but for 30 masks it probably isn't worth the risk to
donate. Between interacting and potentially being a carrier, it would be
better if you used them yourself going to the grocery store/pharmacy once
every other week to prevent spread. You getting infected would cause more of a
problem vs the small impact 30 masks would have in a hospital.

------
beaunative
CDC lied because people will panic buy, see what happened with toilet paper,
it got ample supply, but still cant handle people buying them for year round
quantity. They suspect our healthcare system will crash in a blink if people
were panic buying masks either because medical professionals were in strike or
sick

~~~
colmvp
There's already a massive shortage of masks so I don't what lying about it and
then changing stances during a crisis is supposed to accomplish.

But given their failure with Covid testing early on, it doesn't surprise me to
see them bungle.

------
collinmanderson
This is really good.

~~~
exolymph
Right? FINALLY. I hope that people don't need too much convincing after having
been _checks notes_ lied to by the public health authorities.

~~~
armenarmen
2 weeks ago: "don't buy masks because they won't keep you from getting sick
and doctors need them to keep from getting sick. Plus you probably wouldn't
understand how to use something as complicated as a mask anyway"

------
exolymph
Real title is too long, so I tried for something shorter but similarly
informative.

------
mnm1
About fucking time. It's impossible to know how many people the previous
advice cost. Or how much trust was lost.

------
m0zg
What's going to really cook your noodle is when the CDC admits that the Trump
pills work, which by all accounts they do, but you won't find it in the press:
everything is very carefully suppressed.

[https://www.sermo.com/press-releases/largest-
statistically-s...](https://www.sermo.com/press-releases/largest-
statistically-significant-study-by-6200-multi-country-physicians-on-
covid-19-uncovers-treatment-patterns-and-puts-pandemic-in-context/)

Doesn't matter what they say, doctors worldwide are using them anyway, in
spite of the absence of rigorous, multi-year, double blind, randomized
studies.

It'll probably take another week or two for them to not be able to sweep this
under the rug anymore.

~~~
nojvek
I’m getting messages from Whatsapp groups. Taking a hot shower or sitting in a
hot tub kills the virus. Drinking Eucalyptus with vodka gives you immunity.
Millions of people are doing it and doctors are recommending it.

It’s not clinically tried but it works. Otherwise why would others do it? /s

