
Death of an Engineer: Attention-Seeking has Killed Invention - mohene1
http://michaelohene.blogspot.com/2012/01/death-of-engineer-attention-seeking-has.html
======
cturner

       > Making quality products for consumers [..] is dying.
    

This is a tired old line. The art and craft movement rose a century ago on the
same ideas.

But the examples he gives are bizarre - Fender?? Fender is a text-book example
of the strength of engineering things to be mass-produced.

Fender guitars were conceived to be mass-produced. Where Gibson makes a big
deal about the supposed tone benefit of a guitar with a continuous neck to the
base of the noise-box, the Stratocaster has always had a bolt-on-neck. The
paint is Dupont car paint. Yet Clapton prefers it to the hand-built stuff.
Better yet, if you break one you can just go and buy another off-the-shelf
that matches it.

 _Some_ people pay a lot of money for old fenders, but people make strange
purchase decisions when it comes to music and art.

I think people want to believe that hand-made things are better (particularly
when they are committed to hobbies to build things that have no market), but I
rarely see an example of it.

~~~
shin_lao
_I think people want to believe that hand-made things are better (particularly
when they are committed to hobbies to build things that have no market), but I
rarely see an example of it._

Food, clothes and jewels are the first things that come to my mind.

------
InclinedPlane
What's wrong with cheap things? Is there really something so terribly wrong
with the ability of everyone to acquire basic, somewhat decent functional
furniture, clothing, entertainment electronics, household appliances, and
automobiles cheaply? Would it be better if only more expensive, long-lasting,
luxury goods that most people couldn't afford existed?

We've lived in that world before, it wasn't a better world for anyone. Since
the same people who could have afforded expensive, high quality goods back
then can today (a tiny subset of the population).

I may not like the style of most of the furniture at IKEA, but I am glad that
it exists so that people of modest means can outfit their homes and spend the
rest of their money on items that have a greater impact on their quality of
life.

I would address the other points in the piece, but I thought this point was
worth making on its own.

~~~
mohene1
InclindedPlane, When I thought about this a few years back I bought a Zeno-
Basel watch from Switzerland, Late last year I saw the price of my watch shoot
up 50% in month due to the Swiss Franc/US Dollar exchange rate.

I don't want to tell anyone what to do, but it is important to say that
quality products have a history holding their value.

The statement about the same rich people can purchase the high quality items.
This is wrong. People today have more purchasing power and buy more cheaply
made expensive things things. People have more money today in the US, but we
also spend more with 4 cars, running shoes, $3000 TVs

Will the things you buy have any value in years to come? Does this entire
situation of demanding cheaper products decrease the value of an engineer.

There is nothing wrong with the consumer demanding sustaining value. And price
is not necessarily a cost, it can be an investment.

~~~
pm90
_> And price is not necessarily a cost, it can be an investment_

not in consumer electronics its not. Quality products continue to exist, but
availability of cheaper, but functional lower quality goods has its place too.
Just an example: I'm a graduate student, so I greatly benefit from this, since
I can buy a cheap product, use it for a few years and then throw it away
without feeling too bad when I move out of the University town.

------
cafard
"The old days of having artisans build guitars for Fender or build bicycles
for Schwinn was the old model; i.e. giving a niche market high quality
products. These quality products have usually gained value (a Fender
Stratocaster in 1964 sold for $289, today it sells for +$23000; a Schwinn
Paramount in 1966 sold for $245, today sells for $2500). Inflation from 1963
to 2011 is about 600%. Money spent on products was money invested."

Having ridden Schwinn bikes as a kid, I must say they were a good example of
mid-century American engineering. They were simple, strong, and hard to break.
On the flat ground of northern Ohio, I didn't miss gears. But would you want
to pedal a heavy, one-speed bike up the hills of Washington, San Francisco, or
Seattle? And to the best of my knowledge, they were produced by men who would
not have described themselves as artisans.

Consider an automotive equivalent, say a 1966 Ford Falcon. It got decent gas
mileage for its day, and it was apt to last and last. It was handsome, and it
had a distinctive look, something missing in lots of more recent cars. But who
but a hobbyist would want to drive on now? In every way a 2012 car is better,
whether made in Stuttgart or Detroit--the engines and transmissions are
incomparably better. The safety systems are incomparably better.

That is also an odd notion of investment. Putting $200 into GE shares in 1966
is one thing--presumably the investment goes toward paying for new factories,
new equipment, etc. to build products and make money. Putting the same money
into a Schwinn bike invests in private transportation. That the bike gains in
value results not from all the potential passenger miles one can rack up, but
from the disappearance of all the thousands of identical bikes over the years.

------
swombat
This article is a little ridiculous. It assumes that marketing/sales generates
no value, that engineering/making things is the sole value creator.

Anyone who's ever tried selling something knows that building something is not
even half the battle. Putting engineering on a pedestal above all others
serves no useful purpose (I say that as an engineer myself).

~~~
mohene1
I stated in my "Sources of the Economy" that marketing is essential to the
economy. I partially agree, marketing _can_ generate wealth indirectly by
creating demand, but marketing only creates wealth when the end product is
used for something functional.

If I market a music band, I create no wealth, I facilitate the exchange of
wealth. I am not saying that this is bad, but I am saying that the creator is
the basis on which everyone else operates.

I agree value can technically be created at the base level by controlling
production of crops and things. You are right, but still this is dependent on
the producer.

@bwarp you are right, engineers usually have clients and contracts for which
they build.

~~~
swombat
I've actually got a blog post in the works about this whole idea of value, and
who "creates" value as opposed to "facilitating the exchange of value" (that's
often regarded as inferior, but I would suggest that it's not). The line
between the two is harder to draw than you'd think, anyway. Is art really
creating value, or is it just facilitating things? Is building a physical
product really creating value? From an environmental point of view, every
physical product creating is destroying value, or at best turning one type of
value into another. Is writing software creating value?

When you really dig into it, this idea of "creating value" is pretty damn
complicated...

~~~
mohene1
Send me the blog post when you get around to it. I considered writing software
the same as creating a machine. It allows us to access/construct the things we
need.

------
david927
While the author's examples are horrible (German bread? Iranian baklava?), he
has an important point.

When you have an expanding economy, such as the US has had for the last 60
years, marketing trumps manufacturing. People don't want any shoe, they want a
Nike. But we've changed to a contracting economy now, where manufacturing
trumps marketing. People care less about the label and more about having a
decent shoe. (Note, I'm not talking year-by-year ups and downs, but 'bigger
picture' movement.)

During the expanding economy, America outsourced manufacturing to focus on
marketing, since it was what was important. And now that things have reversed,
it's in a bad spot.

------
bumeye
I don't think this is unique to the US, and not unique to the last 10 years
either.

Consider this: Of all the products made a 100 years ago, only 1% was made to
last for a long time. Right now the other 99% is broken and thrown away and
the 1% is still being used.

We only SEE old products which are well built. That doesn't mean all old
products are that way.

There are still products being build which we can use for a long time, but
they don't stand out and will only be noticed after a tens of years.

------
retroafroman
I think you're just not looking hard enough to find the quality you're looking
for. While there are certainly mass produced bicycles, guitar amps,
motorcycles and other things that cater to the need of the masses, there are
also craftsman made examples of all of those. Any decent sized city is likely
to have a bicycle shop that custom makes frames to order. They're much more
expensive, but I imagine they provide plenty of value to the customer who
orders it.

In respect to the idea that there are no uniquely American souvenirs I also
think you're being a little too quick to jump to judgement. Along with cowboy
boots, as was mentioned, a possibility is a hat, or a big metal belt buckle
like cowboys like to wear. An American football jersy, perhaps. Military
surplus items, especially if branded with a 'US Army' or similar could work
for some people's tastes. If the friend a skateboarder or snowboarder there
are plenty of companies that have locally well known surf and skate shops with
branded shirts (think RonJon) or skate decks.

------
trafnar
The article says: "Shouldn’t we all be paid proportionally to the value we
produce and our time."

If your work is directly contributing to that value, then sure. But in the
example given (a machine that prints $100 vs $1 bills), the work is exactly
the same. If you expect to be paid more to work on the more expensive machine,
another worker would surely undercut you.

I don't think it is "bogus" to be paid for work and not take a share of the
profits. I have specifically requested this arrangement at various startups,
even when offered stock. If you want to be compensated with some sort of stock
or royalties, you are making a bet on the future success of the business.

Apple has become one of the most successful companies ever, while building
quality products. Their products are thoughtfully designed by obsessive
designers and engineers, the best of the best. Apple products would make a
great "USA souvenir" if not for the fact that they are already available
worldwide.

~~~
babarock
> Apple has become one of the most successful companies ever, while building
> quality products. Their products are thoughtfully designed by obsessive
> designers and engineers, the best of the best.

Sure Apple's may look like "quality products" if you compare them to current
products offered by competitors. But the article goes beyond that scope.

We are evolving into a a consumerist society where we don't expect our
products to last more than a couple of years. Take the Apple TV for instance.
As soon as you buy it, its value decreases and never gains value back. There
is very little chance that its value ever goes back up (except maybe if some
hobbyists in 2075 will be interested in collecting them). Compare that to the
Fender guitar or the Schwinn bycicle mentionned in the article.

I agree with the author that we should demand higher quality from our products
and not go for the shiny thing at a (barely) affordabel price all the time.

~~~
tlianza
In the case of technological products, make no mistake: the consumer _does not
want_ products to last 10 years.

You can surely run a 10 year old computer, but what are you going to do with
it? Does anyone want a 5 year old cell phone?

So long as we continue to make advancements at the pace we're moving, there is
no demand for consumer electronics that last that long. So long as each
generation gets cheaper or better (which for the most part is true) and we
figure out a decent recycling process (and I think we have) let's just keep
moving.

I think it's a very fair point in other, slower-innovating industries.

------
ricksta
Value is all about perception. Something valuable to one man might be junk to
another. Being a good engineer is about creating things that your target
market will value.

The author seemed to like one off artistic creations over mass produced goods.
if it wasn't for mass production, there is no way we will have the quality of
life we have today.

~~~
mohene1
ricksta, I couldn't fit the definition of value into my post but I mention it
in my previous post.

Mass production is something I didn't clearly define. You are right. The point
I made was that increasing the "quality" in quality of life has meant a
decrease in value to the consumer with increasing profits for the heads of
companies who convince consumers they are saving money by buying poor-quality.

I answer this by my question "If you believe you have a high quality of life,
how many things around you will be worth something in 30 years?" If nothing,
it is an illusion.

I value quality, quality defined as something that will remain functional. If
we no longer have to design for longevity and function engineering will
wither, because consumers won't be willing to pay for the value engineers
invest in making things beautiful (long-lasting).

------
RyanMcGreal
After making reference to artisan bread from Germany and baklava from Iran,
the author asks, "How many items in our homes today will gain value over the
next 30 years?"

I don't want to know what that bread or baklava is going to look like in 30
years.

------
drewcrawford
Suppose I am an oil engineer, and I develop some highly technical breakthrough
in oil extraction. Is this good, because I am an artisan, and am deeply
invested in a very challenging problem? Or is it bad because this invention
essentially earns me an infinitesimal fraction on each gallon of gas sold,
e.g. "siphoning a little amount of money from a lot of people"?

I am not really sure I understand the distinction that the author is trying to
draw.

~~~
mohene1
Siphoning is to extract something with out giving back. An ideal economy is
exchanging wealth for wealth. Selling oil/gas to someone is not siphoning,
because they receive value (the ability to transport themselves, make goods)
in exchange for their money. My earlier post explains some of these concepts

------
motters
The end goal of work isn't money, it's to produce something of value. Money is
just a technology for trading things of value.

------
WalterSear
Five minutes and google with give you more independent US guitar and amplifier
manufacturers than you would know what to do with. I can't imagine that the
same can't be said for bicycles.

Of course, few among us are going to be able to throw down $5-6k for a
souvenir - either now or back when the equivalent of todays's $5-6k was a
hundred odd dollars.

------
blumentopf
Article in a similar vein: <http://nat.org/blog/2009/07/nerds-and-jocks/>

~~~
mohene1
Bookmarked it, thanks

------
18cc
Henry Ford's book "My live and my work" is all about it.

------
tkahn6
> I admit there is no product from the US that is worth much and is unique

A few things wrong with this statement:

1) The US is large. New York City and San Francisco have very different
cultural identities. They also span a distance roughly 1000 miles longer than
London to Moscow. What is something that is worth much and uniquely European?

2) The US is an amalgam of many other cultures. There are very few things that
are both culturally unique to America and tangible. Here is a man who makes
hand-made custom knives [1] in Brooklyn. What about knives are uniquely
American? What tangible products are uniquely American? The only thing I can
really think of are Winchester rifles.

3) And for that matter, what is uniquely German about artisan bread? What is
uniquely Iranian about baklava?

[1] <http://thisismadebyhand.com/film/the_knife_maker>

~~~
mohene1
Not to make a joke, but after asking me for a souvenir idea my roommate's
German boyfriend said "...a gun?" 1)Germany is large too with different
dialects. The point was that the US once produced these things (guitars,
bicycles, etc) now we don't. And the younger people who can produce them are
wising up and taking jobs in finance. The BBC made a documentary about this
just this year.

Fender Guitars was sold to CBS Corporation and quickly mass produced with
cheaper woods.

European: Tag-Heuer, Zeno Basel Watches, smaller watch makers, furniture,
there are still towns with thriving silverware companies in Southwest Germany
2)Every country is an amalgam of cultures, Yes Winchester rifles of Jonathan
Browning are definitely American

3)They use different, more expensive grains (rye, whole wheat) and sourdoughs
which do exist in the US but only in a few locations. Baklava is hard to find
outside college towns and metro areas in the US, this makes it unique

~~~
tkahn6
> 1)Germany is large too with different dialects.

The US is 27 times the size of Germany.

> Every country is an amalgam of cultures,

No European country is even remotely close to the US in terms of diversity.
The US is a nation _of_ immigrants. There is no American 'people' in the same
way there is a German people. America is not a nation-state. Germany has many
different areas with different dialects but these are indigenous to Germany.

> the point was that the US once produced these things (guitars, bicycles,
> etc) now we don't.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bicycle_brands_and_manu...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bicycle_brands_and_manufacturing_companies)

Ctrl + f 'USA', many are defunct yes, but many are not. You are factually
incorrect.

> They use different, more expensive grains (rye, whole wheat) and sourdoughs
> which do exist in the US but only in a few locations.

Not only do bakeries exist in the US that use locally grown whole wheat and
rye, bakeries also have the option of importing these ingredients from areas
that do have whole wheat and rye. Have you never had a New York sourdough
bagel?

> Baklava is hard to find outside college towns and metro areas in the US,
> this makes it unique

Baklava is hardly unique to Iran unless you expressly call it 'Iranian
baklava'. And if you do that, why not call American-made baklava, 'American
baklava'?

~~~
mohene1
1,2) Your point was "large" in terms of distinct regions, I think implying
that the US has a harder time to have our products accepted as opposed to a
more homogeneous society. I think diversity and culture is a separate issue.

I dont have experience marketing products in Germany, but like I said almost
every country has unique

3) The bicycle companies you listed, most USA brands have shipped production
overseas do to labor prices. Off the top of my head, I can think of Trek and
Cannondale as the only true mass produced bicycle manufacturers left in the
United States. I am not saying there is something not good about the US. I am
saying that the lack in quality demanded has left us wish cheaper products
that can't demand the prices that will employ engineers. In turn, young
engineers are leaving to the finance sector. Here's an excerpt from the BBC
documentary.

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4081937.stm>

4\. "Bakery" in the US means cakes, brownies, and cookies not artisan breads
which requires fairly skilled workers to make. Only in Connecticut, Western
Massachusetts, San Fran, Boston, St. Louis, and New York can you really find
artisan bakeries in the US.

But this point was made to establish the uniqueness and quality demanded by
the consumer. German Bread as Cultural Heritage:
<http://www.goethe.de/ges/mol/typ/en8187653.htm>

5) You are right baklava is not unique to Iran, but the Iranian spices used
were unique to this Baklava. The point is that the consumer demanded/expected
a level of quality which is unique to their culture.

~~~
bosie
> Cannondale

In 2009 there were reports Cannondale is going to move production to Asia
([http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/cannondale-closing-
us-...](http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/cannondale-closing-us-
production-facilities-21101)). Did they decide against it? Wikipedia says the
production sites are in Vietnam and Taiwan
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannondale_Bicycle_Corporation#...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannondale_Bicycle_Corporation#Bicycle_Frames)
\- second paragraph)

------
kahawe
> _What souvenirs can I bring back from the United States to Germany, I had
> nothing to say._

The joke is on him: pretty much ALL typical American exports and products are
extremely common parts of daily life over here in Euroland... we have your
music, movies, tv shows, video games, fast food restaurants, soda pop,
clothes, cigarettes, etc. So, yes, considering this it might really be hard
finding something to bring home he really cannot buy here anyway.

> _The old days of having artisans build guitars for Fender or build bicycles
> for Schwinn was the old model; i.e. giving a niche market high quality
> products. These quality products have usually gained value_

This is an extremely bad example and a wrong conclusion.

First, there still are a TON of very high quality "artisans" building guitars,
guitar amps and effects for the "boutique" niche market and most of them come
from the USA and they pride themselves on their products, the quality and that
it is done by hand, in the USA. I am sure you will find the same is true for
other industries and markets. Just because you don't know them doesn't mean
they aren't there.

Second, the craze over Fender and Gibson vintage guitars has MUCH less to do
with real, actual quality and I say this as a guitarist. Be realistic. This is
a vintage collectors craze over very iconic products which have become
extremely rare because before the vintage craze, they were a dime a dozen -
see Clapton's legendary "Blackie" was bolted together from parts of 3 guitars
he paid a 100 bucks for, total. Most people didn't store them or consider them
valuable at all, they just played them and modded them and when they broke
they were thrown away, nothing special about them. They were mass products,
FAR from what those USA boutique luthiers do today. But it is EXTREMELY rare
to find a mint condition guitar from that era. Actual production quality,
quality assurance and longevity of guitars made by USA Fender today are
arguably WAY better with WAY less variance but everybody wants a 60's Strat...
for a fraction of the cost of a vintage one, I can get one of those boutique
luthiers to build me a more reliable, more durable and better made perfect
replica. Sentimental values aside, there is a thorough understanding what made
a 50s or 60s Strat and you can get virtually in-distinguishably close,
including a used look as if it was 50 years old. So, this is just like saying
a mint-condition vintage Mustang was a WAY better car than the ones they build
nowadays.

The value those items have NOW does not come from superior engineering or
production. They have sentimental and iconic value and they are rare.

While we are at it: where did the internet and PCs come from? What about 90%
of all programming languages and operating systems used nowadays? Who brought
us our beloved iPods, iPhones, iPads and apps?

~~~
mohene1
Okay, you have a very good point about the guitars and the inflated values. a
$32000 guitar must play itself. This is something I call "apparent value"

>While we are at it: where did the internet and PCs come from? What about 90%
of all programming languages and operating systems used nowadays?

Good question. They came from people at Microsoft, Mathematica, Xerox (former
MIT researchers), Bell Labs, and ITT. You are right. But in the article I
wrote specifically that software engineers have kept their ranks and continue
to prosper.

