
Why Wallflowers Don't Make Friends - wallflower
http://nymag.com/thecut/2017/04/why-wallflowers-dont-make-friends.html
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rb808
Being a wallflower isn't a great way to meet people agreed. but after a few
decades I've come to realize that its a symptom rather than a cause - if you
want to meet people you need to plan ahead - invite others to come with you,
go to places you know people already - introduce yourself and chat to friends
of friends not strangers.

If you go to a place where you're by yourself and aren't talking to people you
aren't a wallflower, you just didn't prepare.

~~~
hkmurakami
My "networking" became 100x easier and more effective once I ditched
"networking events" (not that I ever went to many) and made "friends of
friends" networking through hikes/biking/dinner/etc. my main mode of expanding
my circle of friendly knowledge worker acquaintances.

Also you form actual friendships from time to time.

~~~
maus42
But how do you start without the first set of friends and, so to speak, the
base case of the induction fails?

~~~
huehehue
I have a hard time believing anybody starts from absolute zero in these
scenarios, but here's an example from a self-proclaimed introvert:

\- Pair up with random guy at a school hackathon because we're both without a
project (+1). Meet a friend of his (+1).

\- Meet him months later for birthday drinks. Introduced to his friend, we end
up starting a band with 3 of _his_ friends. (+4)

\- Meet countless people through the music scene (+?)

\- Go to another hackathon together with first guy, join another pair (+2),
win, catch a recruiter's (+1) attention and get an internship.

\- Meet countless people over the summer during the internship (+?)

\- [...]

That's the very short version. Most of my network can be traced back to like,
4 people that started as strangers. There were a lot of dead-ends initially,
sure. But it really does just take one person to build or reshape your entire
social circle, change your career, etc. The first set is the hardest imo, but
there's no excuse* for not going out and trying to find it.

*excepting, of course, any affliction which might make social interaction difficult. "i'd rather stay home" is not an afflication

~~~
ebiester
It's much easier in a college setting. Much easier.

I've now moved a couple of times in my adult life. I find that it takes about
six months to find a group of people to hang out with occasionally, and two
years to acquire a small group of friends that I feel comfortable with. It
seems to get harder as you get older, too.

------
RichardHeart
Summary: If you want to meet people, be meetable. Proximity is power. If you
isolate yourself by location or behavior, less people are going to do the work
of meeting you. If you're a man, this passive shit doesn't work as well, so
get ready to be bridging the gap courageously yourself.

Open ended questions usually fail. You're better off making interesting
statements than you are actually asking questions. For instance: You look like
you're from someplace very far away. vs. Where are you from?

Open ended questions are pretty garbage unless someone is already attracted to
you, and used to being conversational. Interrogations aren't fun.

~~~
engx
Good comment but I wouldn't suggest saying you look like you are from
someplace far away. Just sticking with the standard where you are from is
good.

Better to have traveled out of the country a few times so you can relate.

Best advice is to talk about doing something. This art museum, this meetup,
this new great restaurant. "Oh join me and my other friends. Or let's go
explore together." You can kind of bluff your way through this even if you
have no other friends (go find them!).

~~~
chestervonwinch
I agree. The "you look like you are ..." requires the other person to either
affirm that they look conspicuously different than their peers or to refute
the asker's claim that they look different, which could be embarrassing for
both.

Generally, I try to avoid comments on a person's appearance unless I'm pretty
good friends with that person, even if it's something relatively benign like
"you like my friend, Pat" or "you like $celebrity".

Edit: of course, "where are you from?" could be perceived as a patronizing way
to point out that the other person looks different. Socializing is hard.

~~~
Frondo
The best form of "where are you from?" is "Are you from [this city we're now
in]?"

If they are, and you are, hey, you're both natives! Where did you go to high
school?

If they aren't, and you are, hey, what do you like about it? How long have you
been here? What brought you here?

If they are, and you aren't, hey, you're a native, I moved here x years ago,
do you know restaurant X? It's my favorite.

If they aren't, and you aren't, mix and match, any of the above.

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unionjack22
Wallflowers stand by the wall because they are afraid of rendering themselves
vulnerable, which is perhaps the most important element in building meaningful
relationships in life. I don't know what's the root cause of this fragility
but I agree it's systemic issue, and one that can quickly morph into something
nastier i.e Troll culture, Redpill misogyny, Alt-right hate, and
ethnic/religious fundamentalism in minority communities.

~~~
RichardHeart
What is the thread you claim links these things?

~~~
morgante
A cycle of lack of empathy and love.

~~~
glitcher
I for one have been a wallflower many, many times and I can safely say that
for me personally there is absolutely no correlation between my shyness and
any of the other attributes you or the parent commenter allude to.

That's not to say that there isn't some truth to those sentiments, but I'm
much more interested in evidence or at least a stronger theory behind the
alleged correlations. As written, the original comment at face value is
nothing more than one person's opinion based on, who knows what?

~~~
morgante
I've been a wallflower too and definitely don't think it _automatically_ puts
you into the more dangerous direction.

Rather, I think it sets up the potential to be susceptible to them. TRP, for
example, does a great job of channeling the (understandable) anxiety and
frustration of unloved young men into negativity and hate.

~~~
ams6110
TRP?

~~~
morgante
The Red Pill, a famously misogynist Reddit community:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/)

------
learn_more
Learn to hack your own confidence.

If you are heading out for a social event, take your good clothes to the gym,
workout, shower and change there, then go straight to the event while you are
feeling peppy and confident!

~~~
probablybroken
If you have the confidence to exercise in public, then it's probably already
less of a problem for you.

~~~
blackflame7000
Just remember that everyone at the gym thinks they are imperfect or else they
wouldn't be there.

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empath75
But wallflowers stand by the wall because they don't want to be approached.

~~~
sverige
If they didn't want to be approached, they would find a way to leave the event
or avoid it in the first place. A lot of times it is simple social anxiety.
They are afraid that people will find out something about them; or rather,
afraid that someone will confirm something they suspect about themselves
(e.g., "I'm not interesting to other people.")

Those kinds of fears are generally unfounded, but it's difficult to prove to
yourself that they're unfounded without actually interacting with people. But
for those willing to interact with the wallflowers, they can be somewhat
fearful of approaching someone with such a standoffish attitude, so it becomes
a self-fulfilling feedback cycle.

Even just a little courage can go a long way. Walking across an open space can
make you more approachable; for example, walking from somewhere on the edge of
an activity like a dance to wherever beverages are being served can give
others an opportunity to intercept you or approach you. It's not hard, it just
takes some practice and the realization that the possibilities for negative
consequences are much lower than the possibilities for positive outcomes.

~~~
radarsat1
> They are afraid that people will find out something about them; or rather,
> afraid that someone will confirm something they suspect about themselves

Honestly, that may be the case for some, but I suspect that the majority of
the time it's much simpler: Afraid to be in a small-talk situation, and not
know what to say after a couple of words. In short, it's a phobia of the
feeling of awkwardness. Easier to avoid.

Like any phobia, the best way to treat it is by exposure -- putting yourself
in awkward situations as much as possible and witnessing that you can handle
it/ get out of it. But also like any phobia, that's much, much easier said
than done.

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cJ0th
To state the obvious: Of course you can only make friends when you talk to
people. However, most people who want to make friends probably only want to
engage in activities that have a moderate to high likelihood of producing
friendships.

Now, how many of the people the wallflowers aren't talking to do actually seek
any new friends? For one thing, many people want to enjoy a given event with
their friends (and _only_ their friends) whom they've brought to the event.
That's often the case at concerts or clubs, in my experience. For another
thing, people today are highly mobile and - thanks to their smartphone - in
constant contact with their "old" friends so that the set of people they
really care about doesn't change much anymore after school. After classes at
my uni, for example, many fellow students would drive up to 100km home to live
with their partners or to hang out with pre-uni friends. Among the rest,
"friendships" existed mostly for learning and partying and thus didn't evolve
to something deeper.

~~~
snarf21
Some people may prefer to have a few real, very close friends than 100
"friends" that they never talk to. Some people also like to go to events to
just be out and about and not at home. I don't feel weird eating dinner or
going to a movie alone. I'm there for me and am not out to "make new friends".

It is a little like co-working space. Yeah, I could work at home but there is
a lot more energy being at a location full of people being busy even if they
aren't my "friends".

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cryoshon
just chiming in here to say that

1\. wallflowers do make friends

and

2\. being awkward is not, as the psychologist in the article claims, awesome.

but

3\. wallflowers make friends in spite of being awkward

but finally

4\. people with social anxiety don't live as full or enjoyable lives as
everyone else, which sucks

~~~
lapsock
Social anxiety is not a thing that you either have or you don't. Everyone has
social anxiety to varying degrees. To claim that people with social anxiety
don't live as full or enjoyable lives as everyone else is just plain wrong.
What is a "full and enjoyable life"? Is it having an average amount of social
anxiety? But then you don't get to do all the cool shit that the people with
very minimal social anxiety do. Is it having minimal social anxiety? But then
you might end up doing things that you'll regret later i.e. having your silly
picture/video go viral and then you might even end up developing social
anxiety as a result of the entire world/country/city knowing your embarassing
moment.

~~~
watwut
Anxiety of any kind makes life less enjoyable then not having it. People with
social anxiety needs friends, wants to belong in group and generally have
normal social needs - except that they are afraid to do necessary steps for it
to happen and end up isolated and unhappy. Social anxiety is not the same
thing as being happy at home alone and thus not seeking wild parties, it is
feeling uncomfortable in presence of people. Happy loners exist, but they
don't have social anxiety.

Not everyone has social anxiety just like not everyone who is a bit sad has
depression. Social anxiety makes you perform badly on meetings, when talking
with your kids teachers, when talking with colleges and in all kinds of
situations where it actually matters.

Not having social anxiety is not the same as not doing silly things while
drunk. Plenty of extroverted highly social people don't do cool stupid things
while drunk.

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d33
Has anyone read the book so far and could comment on it somehow?

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Jedd
While gen-pop frequently abuses the word 'literal', you kind of hope that
actual authors wouldn't:

> There’s a moment in your book that I love, when you give advice to awkward
> people looking for social shortcuts, and you tell them not to be _literal_
> wallflowers.

The anecdotal clarification there is that people in dormitories should ensure
they are near the entrance -- precise details not provided.

~~~
thetmkay
The word "literal" here is slightly more complicated than in the usual
commonplace misuse of the word.

The author is trying to distinguish between "wallflower" the "socially awkward
person" and "wallflower" the "person who stands near a wall". They are using a
slightly more literal definition, but not the most literal (i.e. the plant).

The justification is that "being near the wall" =/= "being in a high-traffic
area".

~~~
Jedd
I appreciate the point you're making.

Re-read the quote I have in my comment and remove the word 'literal'. Does
that sentence have more, less, or the same meaning / power to you?

~~~
mrxd
Without 'literal': don't be shy

With 'literal': don't stand by the wall

~~~
Jedd
Are you _seriously_ suggesting there's a profound loss of meaning between:

> There’s a moment in your book that I love, when you give advice to awkward
> people looking for social shortcuts, and you tell them not to be literal
> wallflowers.

and

> There’s a moment in your book that I love, when you give advice to awkward
> people looking for social shortcuts, and you tell them not to be
> wallflowers.

~~~
dmoy
Yes. The former can be argued as more polite, because you're suggesting an
alternate course of action (don't stand near wall), and the latter can be
construed as an attack on a person's mentality (you're a shy person, don't be
that way [that's bad]).

~~~
Jedd
> The former can be argued as more polite, because you're suggesting an
> alternate course of action ...

alternative

~~~
dmoy
In US English at least, alternate can be used as a direct synonym for
alternative. Idk if it's the same in British English. Might be different like
the phrase "just in case", etc.

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cool-RR
Relevant username. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

