
From a life prison sentence to a computer engineering job - rmason
https://thehustle.co/how-one-man-went-from-a-life-prison-sentence-to-a-100k-engineering-job/
======
dumbfoundded
As a business owner and former SV software engineer that regularly hires
former convicts, I can speak to this a bit.

Hiring ex-cons will make your life harder. At least it has made mine. Many
times, ex-cons aren't given the practical skills to get by as an adult. They
may not have a bank account, understand taxes, have a driver's license and so
many other practical skills.

They're also more likely to steal from you, hurt or harass other employees and
more. So why hire ex-cons? Well I don't on purpose, I just don't do background
checks. I have everyone on a paid trial their first week. We make the decision
based on work. I only find out later.

Why do I do this? Because I want to live in this type of world and it's good
for my business. My business only cares about the work being done, not the
personal history of the employees. Hiring ex-cons will create more work for
you but it's led to me finding some of my best employees.

I think it's easy to say we should hire felons but it's not easy for
businesses to do this. Prison should be adult school instead of gang summer
camp.

~~~
bane
Growing up, my parents owned a small business that was staffed in the
production department almost entirely by ex-convicts. There was both a measure
of altruism, charity, and good business in their thinking -- the convicts had
done their time and needed help, and were often cheaper to hire than regulars.

My parents wouldn't hire violent offenders, and most of the people they
employed had some kind of drug problem at one time or another. Most of these
guys were decent, friendly, hard working, and then had absolutely inscrutable
abilities to go completely off the rails from time to time. Very few of them
stayed employed for more than a couple of years and many of them ended up back
in prison.

I remember more than one guy getting hired, working their tail off, turning
their life around and so on. And then one day going on a PCP fueled naked run
through the center of town, or suddenly cashing their paycheck and immediately
spending it all on cocaine while their kids went hungry. One guy went so far
as to have his hand mangled in a piece of equipment so he could get his hands
on legal opiates, after 10 years of rock solid employment and clean living.

On occasion, my father would also catch them involved in absolutely bizarre
shenanigans. I remember one day my father came home absolutely fuming because
one of his guys had set up a weekend shop (when the business was normally
closed) out of my father's storefront selling both counterfeit watches and
postage stamps to local refugees. How he had hit on that as a business angle
and why he decided to do it out of my parent's business is a mystery that has
never been explained in any meaningful way.

Money management was a huge problem. My parents were approached almost weekly
for pay advances, loans and whatnot. My father often traded extra side jobs
patching up the building or whatnot for the pay instead of just giving it out
-- it was assumed the guys were using the early pay in some irresponsible way.

While this all sounds like an absolutely nightmare, it curiously wasn't. My
father made it clear that when guys were on the job they behaved, they showed
up on time and they'd be payed on time. Any deviation from it and they'd be
send home and not payed for the hours they would have worked. These events
were maybe once or twice a year and most of the time the guys were just there
putting in their shift and were otherwise fun to have around.

~~~
dumbfoundded
You and your parents' experiences echos a lot of my own.

When Bitcoin started going up again several months ago, a few guys bought in
near the peak despite my warning.

Gambling in general was weird. Like betting on how long it would take to eat
something.

There's a surprising number of conspiracy theories. We've had to create
headphone rules for certain topics.

That being said, hiring former convicts has been both a rewarding and
challenging experience for me. If you have the time and it makes business
sense, I would highly recommend it.

It's generally a polarized outcome. You either end up with a great employee or
a problem. If you handle the problems, you'll always get better people by
expanding your pool of applicants.

------
pmoriarty
Not to cast any kind of aspersions on this man's character, but you don't have
to be scrupulous or skilled to make a lot of money. Plenty of companies are
run for and by criminals, and some of them would doubtlessly not have a
problem with and maybe even desire to hire people with a criminal past (though
perhaps not with a record).

Arguably, plenty of corporations are engaging in behavior that's unethical
(like spying on their users, trying to manipulate them through advertising, or
selling products that harm or even kill people) and that if it isn't illegal
already should be. Many such organizations and the people that work for them
are very successful, are rewarded handsomely for their work, and are lauded by
society at large.

Many criminals would feel right at home in such organizations, which do
whatever they need (sometimes within the bounds of the law and sometimes
beyond it) to make money.

On the other hand, just because you've been convicted of a crime doesn't mean
you've done anything wrong. Plenty of people are or have been on jail for
victimless crimes (like marijuana possession) or crimes that should never have
been crimes at all (like sitting in the front of a bus or drinking from the
wrong water fountain at certain times in American history, having a
stigmatized sexual orientation in certain parts of the world, protesting
abuses, or trying to shelter innocent people who would have been killed had
they been turned over to the authorities), or been the victim of judicial
injustice (like being convicted by a biased jury or based on falsified
evidence of a crime you didn't commit). So yes, you could technically be "a
criminal", but either be innocent or even justifiably proud of what you did,
and any decent company should be glad to have you.

~~~
ekianjo
> plenty of companies are run by criminals

Another blanket statement with zero supporting fact at the beginning of an
argument.

~~~
monkin
BP, Volkswagen, many chemical consortiums... to name a few. :)

~~~
dbdjfjrjvebd
BP?

------
taxicabjesus
Over the 3.5 years I spent driving around in my taxi, I had a few
opportunities to clean after messes created by the criminal justice system.
I've decided "justice" is mostly a make-work program for lawyers and prison
guards.

> When the formerly incarcerated are released from prison, they are given
> anywhere from $10 to $200 in cash and sent on their way, often with no job
> or housing prospects, and few contacts in the outside world.

When the people are released from the Maricopa County Jail, they frequently
have nothing, not even the cell phone they had on them when they got mickeyed
up. Cell phones with removable batteries are given back to people when they're
released. Phones with non-removable batteries have to be claimed from
property, which is open during regular business hours.

One of the more-important things I wrote for kuro5hin.org (RIP) was titled
_Who Are Your Lifelines?_ [0]. It was about the passenger who called me from
jail because he remembered my number. I went to visit, got his gmail
password... Eventually I bailed him out myself, as it was "only" $300... I
exercise my mental phone book regularly on his account.

When I helped him out the last time he was arrested (on a 2-year old warrant
for a missed court appearance), he had no choice but to write off his phone,
as he had no identification by which to get his property back.

[0] [http://www.taxiwars.org/p/who-are-your-
lifelines.html](http://www.taxiwars.org/p/who-are-your-lifelines.html)

The other passenger was a young woman who was released 15 miles from where she
was picked up [1], when the city cops found a blond-haired white woman who was
a better candidate for the beer thief they were looking for. Even if she'd had
a cell phone with phone numbers of people she might've called for a ride, she
only would have been able to reclaim it during banking hours, not at 10pm when
she was released to the street. A hotel let her use their phone to call the
taxi company for a ride.

[1] _Ordinary Rendition: The Public Servants ' Quagmire_,
[https://www.taxiwars.org/2017/10/ordinary-rendition-
public-s...](https://www.taxiwars.org/2017/10/ordinary-rendition-public-
servants.html)

Sometimes justice is important, sometimes "justice" is a rigged game. We all
pay the price for its flawed implementation.

~~~
didbdidnd
Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

------
coldtea
> _Moore’s story is one of perseverance, hard work, and redemption — but it
> raises a controversial question: Should a convicted killer be given a second
> chance?_

How's that a "controversial question"?

And in what other part of the western world a 15 year old kid even gets a life
sentence for a murder in the heat of the moment, especially given he had drug
and alcohol issues?

~~~
lovich
There's a quote from Warhammer 40k that sounds similar to this

>Some may question my right to destroy a world of ten billion souls, but those
who understand realize I have no right to let them live.

For those who don't know this is a sci go universe whose overriding style
"grim dark". This is where everything is as over the top terrible as possible
and there is no hope for the future.

We are at the point where comparisons between our prison/justice system can be
made against a fantasy world purposefully written to have no chance of hope

------
anonyfelon
I wish I knew about Last Mile. I'm going to reach out to them.

For some context... see my only post
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18704252](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18704252)

I have another account on HN with lots of karma, but I'm still terrified that
if I talk about my past openly, it'll be career suicide.

Here's the thing: you can "pay all your dues" to society, but if:

a. your crime is a felony

AND

b. you don't live in a state where their criminal code has a provision for
felony _EXPUNGEMENT_ (NOTE: that's _not_ the same thing as only a pardon)

the simple fact of the matter.... you're SCREWED. It will follow you FOREVER.

There is no forgiveness, and the felony will make it very hard to get a good
job unless you're lucky enough to find a company who will hire you in spite of
it.

I have only had luck at companies where I knew someone who worked there
already, and they vouched for me. Even then, it was VERY challenging to get
past the gate that is HR.

Here's the thing, though... if (as a society) we're going to hold crimes
against people forever... how do we expect them to be restored?

A good job is arguably the most important part of that work of restoring
someone to society.

------
benatkin
The real story is the state bill which gives an opportunity for parole to
inmates who were tried as adults before they were 16 years of age. Beyond
that, it's a story of a statistical outlier.

------
quotemstr
Do prisons let prisoners contribute to free software? It seems like it'd be a
win for everyone: prisoners get something productive to do; the world get
better software; prisons get to brag about providing opportunities for what
amounts to career training, but without having to spend very much.

There's a long history of having prisoners clean roads and make license
plates. I imagine that'll still happen, since not everyone has the temperament
for technology. But why not let those who do have the temperament do something
that society values?

~~~
Pfhreak
> Do prisons let prisoners contribute to free software?

No, I'd guess most prisoners don't have access to the internet, let alone a
computer.

> There's a long history of having prisoners clean roads and make license
> plates.

That long history, at least in the United States, comes with a lot of baggage.
The thirteenth amendment in the US Constitution forbids slavery _except of
prisoners_ , and many consider forced prison labor slavery. Prisoners have
done things like clean roads, manufacture goods, work call centers, etc. In
California, prisoners earn between $0.30 and $0.95 an hour _before_
deductions.

------
rhacker
For anyone specifically making less than 100k - I'm curious if you had any of
these reactions:

a - I'm angry because he's making more and he's an ex-con (that actually
murdered someone in cold blood - as a kid)

b - I'm not angry because he did his time (22 years in a cell), but now that
he's beyond his criminal time, seems reformed (likely won't do it again), even
though he's making more than me - he deserves it.

c - something else?

Honest answers please! I'm just super curious.

~~~
forgotmypass9
I'm not grumpy about this one at all, but there was a post on reddit about
kids making $30 to 60 hour doing yard work and general help out type things.
The most I've made in software development is $65/hour as a contractor (so my
expenses are higher than normal employment) and lately it seems like I
struggle to get any work. When I was a kid I was making $5 for that kind of
work (maybe worth $10 now).

------
Causality1
>According to Jennifer Ellis, The Last Mile’s chief operating officer, tech
companies are often resistant to hiring the formerly incarcerated

One of the things I truly don't understand about our justice system. If time
served is "repaying your debt to society" then why do anyone but law
enforcement have access to your record? If it isn't, then why do we
incarcerate people at all?

~~~
donarb
It's not that employers have access to your criminal record. It's more that
employers have routinely asked on employment applications if you've ever been
convicted of a crime or been incarcerated. That has led to movements such as
"Ban the Box", which aims to remove the checkbox on applications that ask that
question.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_the_Box](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_the_Box)

~~~
sbierwagen
As that Wikipedia article notes, prohibiting questions about criminal records
makes employers substantially less likely to hire African-Americans, since
race is a strong proxy for arrest rate: [https://academic.oup.com/qje/article-
abstract/133/1/191/4060...](https://academic.oup.com/qje/article-
abstract/133/1/191/4060073?redirectedFrom=fulltext)

~~~
cameronbrown
We have to break the cycle at some point.

------
throwaway_45
This guy stabbed his brother to death while sleeping. I mean that is a pretty
bad crime. If he wasn't white would he have a job?

Also checkr basically helps put people out of jobs by background checking
them.

~~~
Mountain_Skies
Since you decided to make a racial accusation, why don't you find the proof
instead of putting the burden on everyone else to prove your accusation wrong?

~~~
learc83
As someone else pointed out this was a social thought experiment not an
accusation.

But if you're interested racial hiring bias has been thoroughly studied and
well documented if you care to google it.

------
siruncledrew
Not that it matters, but my learning from having friends and acquaintances who
were convicted of crimes is:

 _Criminality is a spectrum._

It's not as Yes/No as one might think to deduce if someone is a criminal.
Propensity to commit crime is not a static variable; it can vary a lot based
on many factors in life. (We're talking 'actual crimes' here, not bullshit
'maybe crimes' like civil disobedience or carrying 1g of weed).

I've known people who were assholes get deeper into a criminal record with no
remorse, and people who were A+ students do some dumbass criminal things and
then work hard to put it past them. The point is: a paper record doesn't tell
the full story of criminal propensity/probability - in either case - and
doesn't perfectly foresee the future of someone's potential.

I'm not saying people who committed crimes are just "misguided innocents" or
that "we should feel sorry for them" like they are in a wheelchair with a
disability. Hold them to the same accountability as everyone else, and if they
are trying to become better people then don't interfere with that.

\---

As examples, here's some stories of people I knew:

 _Person1_ : Had a WRX in college, took it out streetracing on the highway at
3am, hit another car at 120mph (nobody died, but bones were broken) and
charged with felony reckless driving. He posted bail, and had to withdraw from
classes that semester while his court case was going on. Also had his license
revoked (unsurprisingly). Had to live with a 2hr bus to/from college for the
next 3 years since he was a commuter student, and also do a ton of community
service. Still, he stuck through it, graduated, and now has a solid job as a
software sales manager (he's a safer driver now and his car insurance premiums
are his lifelong reminder).

 _Person2_ : Started dealing weed in high school and moved up to dealing up
more drugs in greater quantities by age 20 to make more money. He had a few
traffic tickets, but never any misdemeanor/felony charges at the time. This
guy just oozed "piece of shit", in my opinion - was a bit like Jesse Pinkman
from Breaking Bad (in clothes and demeanor), bought himself a blacked-out used
BMW and also got a handgun illegally (to further embody the drug dealer
persona), and bragged about beating a guy unconscious once who tried to short
him on cash. Eventually got caught with weed, coke, xanax, and $2k cash in a
traffic stop. Ended up taking a plea deal with probation (skirted jail due to
1st major offense). Worked a minimum wage job during probation, still
continued his same shitty behavior on the side because he wanted the money
from it. 2 years after his probation was over, his apartment got busted by the
cops, and now he's in jail (idk for how long).

 _Person3_ : Another dealer, but this guy stuck to only weed products (weed,
oils, wax, edibles in illegal state). He was an infosys student, and more of a
"hippy stoner" (long hair, hoodie, sandals, drove a minivan). He was a chill
dude to smoke with, and did not treat selling weed like The Wire (would throw
in free spliffs with every quarter oz). Ended up getting caught when he was
making an exchange with his supplier and was taken in for "intent to
distribute". He spent a few days in jail while the cops wanted to make a case
of his supplier. Ended up with probation. He stopped dealing weed, though he
still grows his own for personal consumption now that he lives in CO. I
believe he is a vegan now and works for some non-profit as a developer.

------
mettamage
As someone who is a law abiding citizen in the Netherlands, I am jealous.

~~~
Sendotsh
Jealous of what? He earned 2 associate degrees and then spent a year and a
half doing coding courses, and then got a part time job in IT after he got
out, and then moved up to a full role.

The entire story is basically no different to any other person who works there
way into IT other than he’s an ex-Con and in the US it’s hard for them to
usually get jobs.

~~~
mettamage
I earned 2 bachelors (CS and non-CS related), 2 masters (CS and CS-related).
My master grades are a 4.0 GPA equivalent, or at least the top 10 percentile
and whatever is associated with an A. In total, I've studied 6 years in IT-
related studies at an academic level.

I have about 1 to 2 years of work experience _while_ I was studying. These
study programs took 8 years of my life (and are supposed to take 9 years if
you study it in a normal fashion).

Despite that, I can't even get the attention of any company in the US and it
has been a dream to work at Google (I started applying since 2015), but they
never respond with a coding test. In most cases they don't respond at all, at
other times it's a rejection.

So yea, I'm jealous. I'm happy for this guy that he got such a great turn in
his life. But I'm also jealous. Why can't I get such a turn in my life? I'm
doing my best.

And it's not enough. And that's a painful message to see and it's mostly
because I can't work in the US. Silicon Valley privilege is a thing. I want to
be there, I have the skills to be there but I can't, because I'm not an
American and I basically need to be a lot better in order to be flown over
with a H-1B visa.

I know what I do have (living in a western European country with a relatively
good social system), and I'm grateful for that. And I'm sad that there are
amazing programmers who don't get the chances that do serve themselves on a
silver platter for me. Some amazing programmers get shit pay by virtue of the
country they're in, and they can't easily be recognized and get out. And I
wish they'd be capable of making a $100K as well. Nevertheless, I am still
jealous (and grateful and happy for that person, I feel all of it more or less
at the same time).

~~~
javagram
The other person responding to you is a bit harsh, but I’d point out instead
that it’s quite hard for an American company to hire someone who is not a US
citizen. I had a coworker myself who was a great programmer and member of the
team, we all liked him but once his visa from studying here in the US after
college ended, he had to return to his home country as my company didn’t have
any way to keep him on legally.

Just having a few degrees and minimal work experience probably isn’t going to
be enough to break into the US market in many cases, you likely would need to
be known as an outstanding expert or have some special skill to help justify
issuing a Visa for you (e.g. the O-1 Visa). I’d suggest focusing on
distinguishing your career within the context of the EU and if you still have
the US as a long term goal look carefully at how best to get there. (Some
others who have accomplished that probably have better advice, of course! As a
natural born citizen I’ve never had to worry about this personally, but I
assume I might face similar challenges if I wanted to move to the EU to work.)

~~~
mettamage
Well, I know that my first reaction ("I'm jealous") might invite criticism.
I'm putting it out there relatively raw to see how people react and what they
think. Because not knowing drives me even crazier. And it is how I feel (other
than gratefulness, sad for the rest of the world and happy for the ex-con).

I appreciate the tip of the O-1 visa and how to potentially get there. And I
also appreciate that you state it very clearly that US companies did not
choose for this fate either.

~~~
croh
Don't give attention to other people. But important thing is - money is not
everything in life. You have still many things to make your life beautiful.
You don't have to judge your success by money only. In fact, living on less
money is more funny than being rich. Please search about 'stoicism'. I wish
all good luck to you.

~~~
mettamage
I should read more about stoicism. Thanks for reminding me.

------
yodsanklai
> ... that regularly hires former convicts

It's quite surprising to read this type of comments. Where I live (western
Europe), I've never met anyone who went to jail, it's really uncommon. I just
checked, the incarceration rate is almost ten times higher in the US.

~~~
rayiner
The crime rate is much higher in the US too.

~~~
bilbo0s
I checked the actual numbers. The incarceration rate in the US is not 10x
higher than the EU, it's only 7 to 8 times higher on average. (Maybe the
poster meant that the incarceration rate is 10x higher than the incarceration
rate in _his particular nation_?)

In any case, the actual crime rates are about 3 times higher across the board.
So we are incarcerating a lot more people for the same crimes somehow? About
2x as many. Alternatively, it's possible that drug crimes, which are an
outlier, are pumping up our incarceration numbers vs some nations in the EU.
Since they are not even arresting people for what we in the US would probably
call possession at a minimum, obviously there would be no follow up
prosecution and incarceration for those individuals? That might be the
difference? But that's just speculation on my part. (It just kind of makes
sense though, because we incarcerate a lot of people on drug charges. That's
probably most of our prison population in some places.)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_in...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_incarceration_rate_with_other_countries)

[https://www.nationmaster.com/country-
info/compare/European-U...](https://www.nationmaster.com/country-
info/compare/European-Union/United-States/Crime)

~~~
yardie
> we incarcerate a lot of people on drug charges.

We actually don't. Obama tried to reduce the prison population by reducing the
sentence or releaseing non-violent drug offenders. He found out that type make
up less than 10% of the prison population.

The punitively long sentencing from the War on Drugs has meant that the people
will go to great lengths to avoid arrest. Someone looking at 30-50 years for
distribution won't think twice about murdering a witness if they think it will
help them beat the charge.

~~~
bilbo0s
> _He found out that type make up less than 10% of the prison population._

Wait? What?

I'm from Wisconsin, and my second home is in Texas. In both places, non-
violent drug offenders constitute the bulk of inmates by far. About 77000 of
roughly 131000 inmates in Texas are in for drugs without theft or violent
charges. If you factor out the ones in for big time distribution, it's about
62000 of the 131000.

[https://www.texastribune.org/library/data/texas-
prisons/crim...](https://www.texastribune.org/library/data/texas-
prisons/crimes/)

Are you absolutely certain they said only 10% of people in prisons are drug
offenders? In any case, at least where I'm from, drug offenders are, by far,
the majority of the incarcerated.

EDIT: Hmm, it just occurred to me, are you only talking about _Federal_ system
prisons? Because most of our inmates are actually in the 50 state prison
systems.

~~~
likpok
A much larger proportion of people are in federal prison for drugs than state
prisons. (Gut check: there are few federal crimes that people regularly go to
prison for, trafficking is one of them).

John Pfaff has done a lot of research into this [1], and drug offenders are a
small minority (~20%) of prisoners. The bulk of prisoners are in for violent
crimes, which makes the politics of decarceration... tricky.

[1]:
[https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=16...](https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1650&context=faculty_scholarship)

------
HNLurker2
Bring a computer engineer is worse than prison

------
ryanlol
>cybercrimes are an automatic disqualifier

Of course, guessing a password is worse than murder.

~~~
bdcravens
The crime is in the intent.

~~~
ryanlol
What do you mean? It sounds like you’re suggesting that the intentions of the
password-guesser would somehow be worse, but _surely_ that’s not what you
mean.

------
dwoozle
Don’t know why we bother giving a second chance to people who stab people to
death in their sleep. Sure, maybe they can be rehabilitated, but I don’t see
why society has any obligation to make the effort.

~~~
sneak
I agree, when it comes to adults. Children do not belong in adult prison, in
my view.

~~~
jillesvangurp
The system failed this guy three times by letting him grow up in an abusive
family with nobody lifting a finger, by letting him grow up in an environment
with lots of crime, plenty of drugs, crappy underfunded schools, etc. And then
finally by exposing them to vindictive/moralistic people insisting to convict
a child as an adult.

That's an indifferent society that destroys people. Being part of that mob
mentality is nothing to be proud of. It doesn't solve the problem; it
perpetuates it. It's the root cause of the US having the largest prison
population per capita in the world (and that's including some really nasty
countries).

------
timwaagh
You could be hiring a murderer. Or you could be hiring literally anyone else.
These jobs are in demand. There is no business reason to do this and there
sure as hell is no ethical reason. I'm not saying: don't hire a murderer. If
you have a cleaning job or something that just pays bad and you can't find
anyone else, sure. But don't go bragging about how you are giving a murderer
100k a year. A lot of capable engineers who are not a murderer would have been
happy to get that job.

~~~
ajspencer
No one should be defined by the worst thing they've ever done. If someone who
made a terrible mistake and paid their debt to society is able to acquire the
skills to get the job based on merit despite the circumstances, they probably
have an incredible work ethic and a strong desire to continue growing.

~~~
hestipod
When the system is a competition for even the most basic human needs people
will judge and define others by anything that puts them a rung up on those
others. People are very fast to put people into "deserve" and "doesn't
deserve" piles here. I've met loads of lying, cheating, philandering, racist
etc people who would "never" hire someone who had been in legal trouble
despite their own poor, often technically criminal behaviors. It makes them
feel "better than" and positions them for a better chance at a life in the pay
to play society.

