
Hacker Trade - Applying YC's philosophy to freelance contracting - antoviaque
http://hackertrade.com/
======
jiggy2011
I don't see what this has to do with YC or how it is at all similar apart from
trying to trade on the name.

What stops this turning into another oDesk type site?

Edit: I didn't read the part about the matchmaking.

Although if you are trying to appeal to a higher calibre of clients the
website design probably needs to change, go with a more "prestige" feel rather
than pictures of people slumped with laptops in coffeeshops.

Also ditch the "hacker" branding, this has too many wrong implications in the
mainstream.

~~~
antoviaque
Definitely - this is actually on purpose for the first phase, where we would
rather focus on a small number of clients and hackers for whom it goes well,
rather than trying to attract everyone who has something to outsource.

But, agreed, if we want to go beyond the types of clients who aren't scared of
the word "hacker", we'll probably have to create a separate site for them.

~~~
jiggy2011
I have a feeling that 'types of clients who aren't scared of the word
"hacker"' will be most of your clients.

~~~
sounds
I'd say that depends on whether you want to become another oDesk. Their
clients are certainly afraid of hackers.

If pg were looking to contract out work, he'd say something like
<http://www.paulgraham.com/gh.html>

I do agree that at some point entrepreneurial "hackers" and established
software companies look at things differently, and should engage each other
productively in finding the right balance.

tl;dr Hackers could do better at being socially adept.

~~~
jiggy2011
It really depends how far you can go with redefining a word.

This will be especially difficult because I imagine if you asked 10 HN readers
what their personal definition of a "hacker" was you would probably get 10
different definitions.

If you are trying to imply a "hacker" as somebody who is in someway superior
to the average software dev then what criteria would you put in place?

What is to stop any kid who read a bunch of PHP tutorials and can put together
a simple blog app from calling him/herself a hacker?

------
j45
I don't have many customers who'd want to pay good consulting money to get
hacking / hackers / hacks, to put together work that was hacked together, a
hacky job.

Unless this is a site where you get bleeding edge proof of concepts built?

The word hack for a wider audience means someone who can't cut it.

Where am I coming from? Dictionary.com seems to sum up this one angle.

hack

1\. a person, as an artist or writer, who exploits, for money, his or her
creative ability or training in the production of dull, unimaginative, and
trite work; one who produces banal and mediocre work in the hope of gaining
commercial success in the arts: As a painter, he was little more than a hack.

2\. a professional who renounces or surrenders individual independence,
integrity, belief, etc., in return for money or other reward in the
performance of a task normally thought of as involving a strong personal
commitment: a political hack.

3\. a writer who works on the staff of a publisher at a dull or routine task;
someone who works as a literary drudge: He was one among the many hacks on
Grub Street.

The other, less known, positive, meaning of hack* is only, largely known to
the tech scene. Unless they are your market exclusively..

0.02 :)

~~~
antoviaque
The feedback we've got around us and the posts on this thread, seem to agree
on the fact that this is a clear branding issue, so we may reconsider our take
on that one.

We preferred to start with something that would only try to appeal to clients
who understand the meaning of "Hacker", as a sort of filter. And only
introduce a different branding for clients later on, when we would want to
extend the target audience. But it may be interesting to do some AB testing
here, and see if we can get good clients without the Hacker branding too, from
the start.

~~~
j45
That could definitely be one way to go.

I'm not sure why you'd want to put effort into branding twice, though.
Consulting is about a clear image and track record, it's hard enough to build
and keep.

------
mootothemax
How will billing work for this on a practical level?

Let's say I've done a week's work, and I charge by the day. Do I sent an
invoice to you guys, or directly to the client? Do you bill me for your 10%
cut, or is that factored in to the price you quote to the client? Will, in
fact, I end up with an invoice to pay to you guys?

 _UPDATE_ : I somehow missed the bit about payment guarantee on your website,
but would still like to know how this works as far as the forms my company
needs to send :)

You also need to consider the nightmare that is charging VAT in Europe. I'm
based in Poland, and anyone I bill who is also based in Poland, consumer or
business, gets charged VAT at 23%. If the client is based in another EU
country, but is VAT registered, they're zero-rated. If the client is in the EU
but is NOT VAT registered, I have to charge the 23% tax. Finally, for everyone
else, it's zero-rated.

Now, I have _no_ idea of the tax implications - if any - of the above when
going through a third-party site such as Hacker Trade. Based of snippets I've
read elsewhere (such as FastSpring's EU tax explanations on their website),
I'm guessing that you might have to do some EU tax registration yourselves...
but only if you're the one collecting money.

Interesting idea though, I've finally returned to full-time consulting and am
building up my network, so this could be a real win for the likes of me :-)

~~~
antoviaque
We're still ironing out the details on that one, so take my answer with a
grain of salt - it still needs to get confirmed by the accountant & the
lawyer.

But, basically, it would likely be very similar to what you get on vworker for
example - the client transfers the money into escrow, and get an invoice for
it. The % cut of the platform is deducted from the amount put in escrow and
transferred to the freelance. The % is taken into account for the quote, so
that it's shared between the coder and the client.

And, yes, we've had to deal with European taxes too, so we're familiar with
the tax mess. : ) I don't have all the details on that yet, but I'll post an
update when we do.

In any case, if you're selected, we'll figure out the specifics of your
situation, to make sure everything is by the book.

------
gexla
If you are calling yourself a freelancer, then you have the wrong mind-set.
Treat your work like a real business. Brand your services. Whatever you do,
don't call yourself a freelancer. You are missing out on the opportunity to
present a much better image to your prospective clients.

Freelancer is bad, hacker is even worse. You might as well have thrown rock
star and ninja on the front page as well.

Quote from the front page...

"Hackers can focus on code, and clients get peace of mind."

Sure, because these are the sorts of problems people who refer to themselves
as freelancers or hackers have. If this service isn't taking care of
marketing, accounting, budgeting, business strategy, etc. then the hackers
can't just focus on code. If you need a service like this to give your clients
peace of mind, then you probably shouldn't be doing client work.

If you guys really want to help connect people, then you should probably start
by helping them get into the correct mind-set. Prospective clients aren't
looking for hackers, they are looking for professionals.

ETA: This was a bit of a rant. So, I suppose I should offer something
constructive. I think the service is fine, but I would change the message. I
could see clients being turned off by the choice of wording. Also, you may
want to provide different portals for clients and hackers / freelancers /
ninja's / rock stars. The client doesn't care about all the benefits to the
developer and doesn't need to see those details. Maybe a more simple "find
talent" and "find work" page (like Elance) would be better?

~~~
antoviaque
Agreed on the message/positioning, as discussed in previous comments - we'll
see if we can find a better branding, at least for the client side.

About learning to get the right mindset, we would definitely like to include
people who are new to freelancing in the first batch - you're right in the
fact that this is probably one of the most valuable aspects of our help for
them, besides the matchmaking itself.

------
kjhughes
I'd like to hear more about your strategy for beating the cold-start problem.
You'll need to ramp up both sides of your two-sided market to be of value to
either side.

~~~
antoviaque
Yep, that one is tricky.

Our approach is to start really small - we only need a small number of hackers
and clients to get started. This allows to be in a similar situation as an
small agency - we don't need to match the audience of elance/vworker to make
it work. The human/case by case approach requires more work for us, for a
lower cut than what an agency would take, but with a different goal in mind
for scaling.

We could actually have done the first batch by ourselves, with just clients
and hackers that we know and are interested. But we thought it would work as a
better validation to give a chance to HN readers to join - we're more likely
to get a more diverse set of situations this way.

The advantage for those who will be in the first batch is the extra care and
attention we'll dedicate on making it work for them. We'll all be learning
from the experience - aside from guaranteeing a place on Hacker Trade in the
future, it's also a good opportunity to shape what Hacker Trade will be, and
ensure that you get what you need from it.

~~~
samstave
The biggest issue I have had with hiring freelance developers is cost.

Everyone, regardless of location and skill and type of request all seems to
want ~$100/ hour.

From a tutor that I looked into to off shore developers.

I just am amazed that it seems like everyone thinks they should be making
$200K per year.

The tutor though, at 100 per hour to be teach development really blew me away.

~~~
zackmorris
Oddly, I've had exactly the opposite problem. It's difficult to find contracts
in the $100-200 per day range. If I could find consistent, rewarding,
challenging work, then I would gladly do it for standard pay. Unfortunately, I
spend so much time finding contracts or getting burned by expanding scope or
nonpayment, that I have to charge more just to survive.

Freelancing should pay at least the overtime rate of a typical developer. If
someone is contemplating freelance work and makes $50,000 per year, than he or
she should probably charge at least $37 per hour or else it makes more sense
to work out an overtime arrangement with his or her current boss.

When we account for all of the downtime and having to eat so many losses (that
are normally handled by an employer), I think that's how so many developers
arrive at numbers of $75-125 per hour or more.

~~~
thibaut_barrere
Hey Zack - freelancer here; if you want to chat about what you describe, get
in touch (thibaut.barrere@gmail.com)!

There's no reason to get burned, maybe I can help you out a bit.

------
Gorbzel
A few things. (Disclosure: I'm a mobile dev/freelancer, been doing this own my
own for a while with pretty good results)

1) I think the biggest issue is the cold-start problem discussed by another
HNer below. Namely, while the copy sounds good and the coders in the photos
seem trendy enough, do you actually have good clients? Selling promises about
freelancing to either side plays to the ideal that we all want, but rarely
does it work out that well. 2) How flexible are the payment / contractual
terms? I usually see this as a negotiation with my clients which, if done
successfully, improves the relationship. If there are disagreements about
terms, is this service simply going to insist on the terms that benefit their
interests? 3) Is the pre-project test work paid? What if I require at least
some deposit on the overall project up-front? 4) Please don't spread misuse of
the term hacker. You're trying to appeal to the coder-side of the demographic,
but anyone serious should have no problem using a more professional term.

I'd consider signing up, but at this point it still does feel like another
startup claiming to fix the problem with no guarantees of anything that
different other than the best of intentions. No offense, but I've followed 2-3
companies like this so far and nothing's panned out anywhere near as well as
traditional networking. I'm hopeful though, and definitely interested in
hearing more about what you have to say.

~~~
antoviaque
1) Aside from the leads from our own network who have shown interest, we have
got some good applications from clients already (even with the Hacker branding
issue discussed below). So, even if we'll still have to go through the first
batch to answer your question with a firm "yes", it's looking good.

Since we don't try to be big just yet, this is less of a concern for our first
stage - if you get in, it's because we think we have a good match for you.
Aside from the 5 minutes you would spend filling the application, you don't
really have anything to lose to try.

2) Very flexible - if you and the client agree on something, we're willing to
try it out. This is actually another reason for us to start small - to make
sure that we can adapt quickly and match what works.

3) Yes, the test project is paid.

4) Duly noted - cf my answers on this topic below.

------
snikolic
Good hackers don't need your services as badly as bad hackers do. If you focus
on quality hackers, I think you'll need to drop your price.

Ten percent is reasonable if you provide a steady stream of work for hackers
who don't have a clientbase. However, I have the impression that you're
specifically trying to cater to _gifted_ hackers, who presumably already have
an existing clientbase or a robust network.

~~~
antoviaque
A lot of good hackers may have a good network and existing client base, but in
our experience it's not always the case. You have good hackers who work in a
cubicle because they don't want to tackle that part; hacker freelancers who
don't want/like to do the necessary legwork to maintain a steady stream of
clients...

Also, as mentioned below - even if you already have a good client base,
applying allows you to extend your market - you can always evaluate the offers
on a case per case basis, and see if the % cut is worth it. You get more
options.

But you may have a point - it's quite possible that some client/hackers
profiles will require less work from us than others.

~~~
lucisferre
Particularly right now. I can see using your service for the convenience
factor, but I can't imagine a lot of companies or contractors being willing to
accept a 10% surcharge on everything.

I'd consider making your costs more fixed if possible.

------
snewman
A few questions / comments (as a prospective client):

1\. Do you have any thoughts or guidelines as to project size? Any lower or
upper limits? (I sometimes have projects as small as a few hours' work for
someone with the right background -- say, integrating with a particular tool
or API. I would love a way to find skilled freelancers for this type of task.
AnyFu sounds like it might be aiming at this, but they've been stuck in "we'll
notify you as soon as [we're] ready" for a while now.

2\. How is the project price determined? Direct negotiation between client and
contractor? Do you get involved (at least to make suggestions)? Is price
determined before or after the matchup is made?

3\. It would be nice to have a general notion of what sorts of expertise your
contractors have (collectively). For instance, are you recruiting designers?
Frontend developers? Backend developers? What technologies are best
represented? Before writing up a project proposal, it would be nice to have an
idea of whether I have some chance of finding a good match.

~~~
antoviaque
1\. Small tasks are much easier to handle in that context. But that doesn't
exclude bigger projects - we'll just make sure it is split into smaller tasks
(the usual sprint/stories methodology of SCRUM usually helps a lot here)

2\. We start by asking both parties what is their price/budget. This allows us
to do a first sanity check on both sides, and then we use that information,
along with the project description, to see who could agree on a price. We
discuss a potential match with both parties - if both agree to discuss, they
get to discuss the final price together.

3\. True, it would certainly be useful. We have a good core set of skill
currently in web development, games, Python/PHP/Node/JS - but that doesn't
take into account the many candidatures from HN exposure today. We haven't had
time to process them properly yet, but the set of expertise is much larger
already. I'd say that, unless your project is extremely specific, we can
probably find a matching skill set for you.

------
bobrenjc93
Very interesting problem to tackle. Only problem I see is how the incentive
structure will work out. The YC process works because as a hacker, there is a
huge monetary incentive(average YC statup is worth 22.4m) to apply. However,
it's not clear to me how the incentives will work out with hackertrade, since
most hackers already have plenty of paid work opportunities.

~~~
antoviaque
Two things here:

1) Yes, established hackers who already have plenty of clients and
opportunities may not need the matchmaking. But it's also a way to extend the
potential market, and get more choice & security - after all, you're never
obliged to accept an offer, so there is nothing to lose to apply.

2) Some devs are good at delivering, but don't like/want the
networking/business development aspect of finding clients. It's a way to
minimize the amount of time spent on it, and focus on code instead.

------
warpspeed
Very cool idea! I'm wondering if it solves this problem that a lot of clients
face- the client knows what they'd like, but have no clue as to what kind of
coding is required to accomplish it. So when they look for freelancers, they
don't know the alphabet soup of languages and end up connecting to people that
might not be the best fit.

If you guys are acting as "matchmakers," you might want to specifically say
that you can help people who don't know what they're looking for (if you offer
that service). I've bookmarked you though, because finding good freelance
talent is a real problem.

~~~
antoviaque
Yep, good point. Helping to figure out what's needed is an important aspect -
it's one of the most tricky parts for people who are starting to contract
online or don't have all the necessary technical background.

------
oozbot
I exactly need something like this.

I think that there is a need in the market for a site like this, that focuses
on quality. And avoids the problems of massified remote work sites, that end
up full of silly projects, with lots of poor programmers spamming everything
to death.

The presentation is right. The fee is appropriate for not too long gigs. But
perhaps in the case of longer terms contracts, some other option could be
offered.

Hope that it goes well.

------
moraesgp
It's a great idea and has potential to create value for both parties. Although
the part where you say you guarantee the payments might be a little tricky
when it involves transferring money across different countries. The client
transfers the money to hackertrade, you hold the money and then transfer to
the coder. It could be double-taxed and compromise the business cash-flow.

~~~
antoviaque
This part we didn't really innovate - that's how plateforms like elance or
vWorker guarantee their payments. Taxes can be an headache, but nothing that
hasn't been solved already.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escrow>

~~~
EREFUNDO
How are you handling chargebacks? What if the service buyer does not honor you
escrow arbitration after the process and files for a chargeback? are you going
to take the money back from the service provider?

------
sgdesign
Congrats on the launch! Very similar concept to my own project, Folyo
(<http://folyo.me>). Pretty much exactly the same thing actually, except Folyo
focuses exclusively on freelance designers.

EDIT: there is one difference, which is that Folyo takes a $100 fixed fee per
project, not a cut of the budget.

------
egallardo
Interesting idea. I respect that you are trying to match the client and the
developers well, but the process you outlined seems to involve a lot of steps.
Is there a way to simplify or automate portions of it? It also might be a
challenge to be profitable charging 10% with the amount of back-and-forth
you've proposed..

