
Ask HN: How can I avoid just making rich people richer? - undreren
I&#x27;ve been a professional software developer for 3 years now, but I&#x27;ve been programming for about 6 years prior to that. Both as a hobby, but also as a side-effect of my education in mathematical modelling and decision making.<p>I love programming and developing applications, but due to my background in mathematics-economics I tend to have a very economical focus on the impact of what I do. To be frank, it is making me depressed.<p>It&#x27;s not that I can&#x27;t generate positive ROI for my time spent. The problem is how it affects society. My job (and education) seems primed to benefit shareholder at the cost of other stakeholders.<p>Automating people away seriously affects the livelyhood of those affected. To make it worse, cuts in costs often never make a difference to the price of end products, unless the market for those products are very competitive. Prices doesn&#x27;t simply go down when costs go down. They go down when your main competitors prices go down.<p>It feel like I&#x27;m making everyone slightly worse off, except for my employer.<p>How can I make a living with my skills, serving the wider public? How can I make a positive difference in other peoples&#x27; lives?
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Regardsyjc
There's a great group of tech nonprofits. I'm based in the USA, so this is a
few American nonprofit tech incubators that I know of. You can look at the
companies they've sponsored for ideas.

[https://www.ffwd.org/](https://www.ffwd.org/)
[https://www.codeforamerica.org/](https://www.codeforamerica.org/)
[https://labs.robinhood.org/](https://labs.robinhood.org/)

I was struggling with this question myself and the solution I found that I
wanted to work on was a problem that made me so angry that I didn't even care
if I wouldn't get paid. All that mattered was that this had to end.

There's a lot of societal ills and problems that you can help. What makes you
the angriest? What do you think should not exist or be tolerated in this
world? For me, it's period poverty. Some topics could be inequality,
education, smart cities/municipal resources/transportation logistics, if
you're a New Yorker (NYC needs a batman to save the MTA PLEASE), food waste,
water scarcity, energy, climate change, privacy, and more.

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blacksoil
I had the same exact dilemma. Finally I gathered the courage to leave my job
in the Valley 2.5 years ago and went back home to a developing country.

During the last 2.5 years I have been learning professional web development,
doing consulting to make ends meets, and most importantly, spending
significant amount of my time in education-related software project that I'm
really looking forward to make impact with. Although I don't make anywhere
close to what I did in the Valley in terms of money, I'm much more fulfilled
cos I know I try to make value in what I'm best at.

So yeah, figure out what you really want, then gather the courage to go pursue
it!

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cuchoi
Work for us: [http://enveritas.org/jobs](http://enveritas.org/jobs) (YC S18,
NGO)

~~~
undreren
Given that I'm living in Denmark, I can't really apply for this position. I
appreciate it though.

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fallingfrog
I have total sympathy for you, but I don't know how to resolve your problem.
Maybe start a cooperative or worker owned business?

~~~
PewPewPewPew
This is also my current reasoning

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lumberjack
Work for the public sector. There are loads of departments whose cause is
unambiguously beneficial to society at large.

~~~
thiago_fm
Government is cancer.

It is used to wreck people up, not help them.

~~~
odonnellryan
Can you name one place that doesn't have a government and is successful? Not
even good for the people living there, but successful in general?

~~~
anoncoward111
Sealand

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panda888888
Work in the public sector. Teach classes. Volunteer at a school or with
children. Do cheap consulting/contracting for nonprofits. Help people use
computers at your public library. Do the opposite and make a ton of money just
so you can donate it.

Some of these are careers; others aren't.

It's easy to start volunteering as a first step.

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EADGBE
You have to be okay with making rich people richer, in order to get some
things done. What do _you_ want out of it? It's obviously not money. So go do
that instead.

Find some freelance work or contract work that doesn't make your skin crawl
and keeps what you deem a necessary amount of income to survive and spend the
rest of your time on what you _do_ care about. Even if it's entirely free
forever. Even if you have to _put_ money into it.

This is a very simple solution to making yourself happy.

Sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too; but don't worry, the snacks
aren't terrible.

Right now you only have 3 years professional experience; it's going to be hard
to find the marriage between what you want and what you need with that short
of a resume ("Put in the time" et al. cliches).

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x0ff
Don't buy popular shit. Buy local products. Learn to quit.

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dv_dt
I've been poking around the cooperative space. They would seem to be a way to
keep more wealth in the hands of the labor that creates it.

They seem like they could develop like an business/economic version of what
the GPL was in software - a way to form a community space using the rules of
an unfriendly/indifferent system itself to maintain the space. But I think
they need some better supporting spark. It feels to me like coop organizations
are at a pre-growth period right now and need better ways to capitalize,
coordinate, and compensate organizations.

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bsvalley
Think of the google business model. Is google bad for society or does it make
our life better everyday? Now, ask yourself, what does it take to run
something like google? The answer is, a shitload of money... this is when
toxic ads come into the picture because someone has to pay for it at some
point.

You should focus on the outcome and the use case in general. Ask yourself what
is my employer trying to solve for the wider public? Then pick a company that
has the strongest mission. Life isn’t perfect my friend.

~~~
goliatone
Google is a great example of how after a certain point there’s only one
mission: profit for shareholders.

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poushkar
Look into
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_altruism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_altruism)

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adiusmus
Find some people. Listen to them talk about their problems. Find what ails
them. Use your skills to help.

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tucaz
What’s wrong with making rich people richer?

Most of the time people get rich by doing exactly what you want to do: help
others. The capitalist way of improving life for everybody is to engage in
voluntary transactions that benefits both parties involved in such
transactions.

With that said, if you work for a company that produces, let’s say, TVs and
help them make TVs more affordable and efficient you will help people that
couldn’t have TVs before get access to it.

That’s how we got to the place we are now where most people in somewhat
developed countries can afford a TV or a chicken sandwich without having to
spend 6 months and thousands of dollars in the process of making it.

The good thing about freedom is that your own benefit is often dependent on
benefiting others as well since alone we can achieve nothing.

If you are more interested in helping your community or bigger causes you can
keep working for these same companies and save some money and use that money
to help whatever cause you feel good about. Maybe even create a business in
the future to increase the rate of what you can help others.

There are plenty of companies that are founded on the principle of turning a
profit but also help the communities they belong to while doing it.

Making people rich don’t conflict with improving others people lives and
helping your community.

You will be much more useful to society if you are doing good yourself.
Otherwise you can’t help anyone. You have to help yourself first.

~~~
yesenadam
_Most of the time people get rich by doing exactly what you want to do: help
others._

But is that true? You have a feeling it is; I have a feeling it's not. I don't
know if there's research on the (rather vague and hard-to-define) question,
but that would be interesting to find out. I guess you aren't thinking of
inherited wealth, which may be how most people actually get rich. Then there's
the people who got rich from investing. Then the people who get rich from e.g.
making weapons. Then.. (a dozen other categories omitted) I suspect it's
rather small percentage left, but I'm guessing. Apologies if you aren't also.

~~~
goliatone
“Help others”: this seems to be a side effect rather than a sought outcome and
the first thing to be dropped as soon as the business can sacrifice it for a
short term return.

~~~
solarkraft
The great thing about capitalism/trade is/was that your benefit was directly
linked to that of others giving you something in return. However it does seem
_very much_ like a lot of people are trying hard (and succeeding) to benefit
more than others (those in power).

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FesterCluck
Do: Take work that involves causes you can get behind. At these pay rates, you
can be picky.

Don't: Build deceptive products. Mortgage backed securities were created by
programmers who lied about their randomization process.

Do: Analyze business to make products that assist people, making them more
efficent and/ or less stressed.

Don't: Believe or let stand others belief that positions held by humans can be
totally automated out. Perfect example is the automated telephone operator.
Customers hate them, and companies still end up needing someone to answer the
phone.

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marketgod
I used to ask that, now I play the stock market. :) Well I really used to ask,
why is my salary not higher and how can I make it higher, but it just would
have never been what I wanted.

~~~
solarkraft
Can you elaborate on what you did and how it turned out for you?

~~~
marketgod
I might not be understanding your question. What I did before trading? 9-5 :(
Well 24/7/6 or something like that. On call, headaches, stress, no remote
work.

I trade options right now, it is working really well. I have the best system,
and I don't think anyone out there can compete against me.

I trade options, 30-45 DTE usually, directional trading. I don't hold for more
than 2 weeks usually.

It's doing really well. Look at my comments, I posted my service/a bit more
information a few days ago.

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cimmanom
Would you find it satisfactory to work for a for-profit company that instead
of automating away jobs or costs was using technology to open new markets?

What about one in an existing market that’s getting consumers better prices by
bypassing middlemen?

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naveen99
> often never

did you mean sometimes always ?

> making every one else worse off.

do you mean all of the few people who's job you helped automate ?

> automate people

you are automating computers. People are already automatic.

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tboyd47
People who have money want to see that money grow. You can't get around this.

How many companies have you worked for in your 3 years? Maybe you just need a
change of environment. The programming field is vast. It's possible to
exercise personal morals in your work, you just have to do it at the right
time, which is the job application process. For example, if you're morally
opposed to gambling, you can decide that you will never work on gambling
software and just not apply to those companies. Likewise, if the
corporate/capitalist world gets you down, you can just work for non-profits.

Now, if you believe software development as a whole is unethical, then as a
software developer you really can't do much with that conviction. I personally
don't see automation as "automating people away." I see it as unlocking new
types of labor that are actually more valuable. The example I like to use is
agriculture. The invention of the combine automated most of what was
considered "farm work," but it didn't destroy the agriculture industry in
America; it actually expanded it.

Maybe you don't really feel that software development is _unethical_ , but
just... not fulfilling. That's not strange at all. At some point in your
career, the things that motivated you to achieve more as a junior developer
just don't anymore. You're looking for a higher calling. You may want to find
that outside of work, by volunteering at a charity or leading a Meetup group
or something.

------
skallmann
I had the same feeling with my previous job. I wasn't doing any good for
society. Starting out happy, after five years, I was just too tired of all the
shit and eventually resigned. It actually got to the point where I resigned
before I had gotten a new job.

My takeaway is this: If you feel bad about your current job and its
contribution to society, start applying for other jobs. Just find something
that looks better. Do it now. There are both jobs and businesses out there
that aren't all bad. Once I quit I felt a huge relief, and after starting my
new job, I've never come close to being as tired of work as I once was. (I'm
working for the government now with no particular individuals earning too much
off of me.)

Another option is of course to start your own company, if you feel you're up
to the task. I kind of have a dream of starting my own company, not take out
all the profit for myself, but as profits grows, hire people and giving them
good conditions whatever job they're doing. Spread out the wealth and set an
example for others. But I'm not there, and I probably never will be.

Someone mentioned education earlier. I think education is one of the areas I
think humanity can benefit greatly from computers and software. The Khan
Academy mathematics web training is a great example. There is no good reason
why textbooks, instructional videos and interactive exercises shouldn't be
free these days, and there are probably ways to get governmental financial
support for this in Denmark. All the mathematics, physics, chemistry,
geography, language and social sciences we currently need to learn the first 8
years of schooling isn't really evolving that rapidly either, so good learning
software would probably just need minor updates now and then.

After education, environmental issues are probably next in my book. But I feel
they're connected in may ways. Education for everyone is crucial to
understanding the importance of our current environmental issues around the
world. It's also a fact that rise of education leads to fewer kids in a
population, reducing the overpopulation of the earth.

Then you have distribution of wealth, which was you first point. In our part
of the world we actually have the position to speak up against inequality, and
we should use it. In other parts of the world, you can be too poor to have the
means or energy to stick it to the man, because everything is about survival
for the next couple of weeks. The western, developed world exploit the third
world systematically to get cheap goods. We consume way more than our fair
share of the planet's resources. But the ways our goods are produced aren't
transparent, which is why we agree to keep up with it. We don't see all the
child labor and the slaves who work 70 hours a week for almost no pay.

In short, the world is rotten and unfair, and my only advice is in my first
paragraph. Don't let the world bring you down, but don't accept the current
state either. Be happy but rebellious and do not accept unfairness.

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bestCauliflower
I'm not prepared to seriously advocate this, just some food for thought: think
up some alternatives to capitalism. I think it is the highest threat to our
civilization, climate change comes second.

