
Can Electric Bikes Ever Go Legal? - ck2
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/02/hell-on-wheels-can-e-bikes-ever-go-legal.html
======
Zigurd
I'm surprised at the resistance to e-bikes.

E-bikes are a practical and cost-effective electric vehicle for the urban
masses. The batteries are usually removable and can be charged in an apartment
or office. They take up very little room on the road and parked. Replacing a
car with an e-bike is a huge win.

E-bikes are a mature product due to the fact that you can't get a license for
gas scooters in cities in China, and they have already gone through several
product generations in China. They would be a huge improvement over the
prevalence of gas scooters in some cities.

I hope they become mainstream in American cities. E-bikes are the best chance
for bicycles to become mainstream in city traffic. If they do become a
significant part of traffic, they will have a large positive effect on safety
for all cyclists.

~~~
scrabble
As someone who spends a lot of time driving, I really don't like E-bikes. I
also have no problem with pedal bikes.

 _They take up very little room on the road and parked._

This is my problem. I do not find this to be the case at all. They are
becoming more popular in my city, and the people riding them seem to feel the
need to take up an entire traffic lane with their bike.

Since these bikes are generally not as fast as a car, and do not accelerate as
quickly they end up being a large nuisance to the traffic system and actually
prevent things from running smoothly.

~~~
lightbritefight
Bicycles should and will take a lane when they feel otherwise unsafe. Large
sums of debris is swept into bike lanes/ gutters that can and will puncture
tires/ cause wrecks. Many bike lanes are next to parked cars as well, and
being doored is one of the number one ways to get seriously injured on a bike
commute. Its a real, valid fear.

Even if the lane is safe, often times drivers will completely ignore you,
blinking safety lights or not. Once, I kindly took the edge of an uphill
slope, no bike lane. On my right, parked cars. On my left, cars going up the
slope. Half way up the hill, a car literally pressed me up against the parked
cars to my right, while in motion. My right leg was forced against the parked
cars, my left against his. I could have reached into his window and turned the
wheel for him, he was so close. Its the day someone not paying attention
almost killed me. I took the lane on that road from then on.

If someone is in the lane, its for a reason. I know it can be a nuisance, but
an unsafe biking environment means no one bikes, which means more cars are on
the road, which means you'll be more inconvenienced in the long run by worse
traffic.

~~~
penrod
Seconded. Riding too close to parked cars is extremely dangerous, as doors
open without warning, and if you don't have sufficient space you then have to
make a sudden swerve into the middle of the lane.

Cycling in the middle of a lane is not dangerous (although annoying to
drivers.) Making a swerve into the middle of the lane without checking for
overtaking traffic is _very_ dangerous, and is the usual cause of cyclists
getting hit from behind.

------
Cthulhu_
I live in the Netherlands, we have dedicated bike lanes and decent cyclists.
Electrical bicycles can indeed be deceptive, as in you see an elderly lady
zipping by whilst slowly pedaling (usually the elderly ladies are only barely
faster on bike than on foot), and since they don't make extra noises they can
be a bit dangerous if you don't look out.

But it's still just an assisted bicycle. Before electrical bikes, we had
assisted bicycles with a small two-stroke combustion engine, the Spartamet
[0]. These were iirc registered in a separate category, 'snorfietsen', which
is a class lower than mopeds (TIL those would be called 'mopas') [1], or
basically, 'assisted bicycles'. These do need to have an insurance
registration plate (number plate) and some visual indications, but a helmet is
not required.

[0]
[http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartamet](http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartamet)
(Dutch, no English version yet) [1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped)

~~~
masklinn
> But it's still just an assisted bicycle.

Depends on the country. In the EU, it can only be assistance (the user must be
pedaling at all times), it must cut-off completely at 25km/h and the engine
can not produce more than 250W, but that's not the case everywhere.

IIRC, the UK has a lower power output (200W) but allows power-on-demand, and
in the US the top speed is 32km/h (20mph), up to 750W, and and AFAIK they
don't require pedaling either.

~~~
jobigoud
Switzerland allows 500w motors. I so wish that the EU would follow this. 500w
can fit in a motor that doesn't make your bicycle look like a moped and the
battery can be taken home for charge in the evening.

The 25km/h and 250w limit is what is preventing me from getting one. I don't
really see the point when I can reach that with human energy.

~~~
masklinn
> I don't really see the point when I can reach that with human energy.

That is, in fact, exactly the point.

That is why they are _bicycles_ , not electric mopeds or scooters. The point
is to do the same thing you could do before on your own, except with less
sweat and fatigue through electrical assistance.

------
nlh
The lawmakers opposed to these bikes (and a lot of the commenters here) all
are operating under the stated assumption that the bikes' speed
("unpredictable") makes them a major risk to pedestrians.

Is there actually any evidence of this? Anyone have any links or details about
increased rates of accidents, etc. having to do with e-bikes?

I can accept the premise if there's data supporting it. Otherwise this sounds
suspiciously like "This sounds different/risky, therefore I don't like it."

~~~
ripter
I wish most laws required scientific proof and if future studies prove
differently the law would be revoked.

~~~
oftenwrong
That would be a great way to increase the amount of fraudulent studies being
published.

------
betterunix
So pedestrians in New York City are able to J-walk, ignore walk signals, weave
around moving cars, buses, and trucks, but it is asking too much for them to
avoid a powered bicycle? How about we hold cyclists responsible for hitting
people -- regardless of what kind of bicycle they ride -- and leave it at
that?

~~~
Nicholas_C
>So pedestrians in New York City are able to J-walk, ignore walk signals,
weave around moving cars, buses, and trucks

J-walking is illegal in NYC as far as I know.

~~~
001sky
_J-walking is illegal in NYC as far as I know._

Shoes don't jaywalk, _people_ jaywalk...

Hence: shoes are legal.

------
c0g
As a pedal- and motor- cyclist in Oxford (city big into bikes in the UK),
these electric bikes really get to me. We have lots of amenities for pedal
cycles to improve their experience of the roads which are (rightly)
unavailable to the faster and more dangerous to pedestrians motorcycles.
Seeing these electric assistance bikes caning it along at an unrealistic speed
by disinterested and distracted riders makes me think they should be classed
as motorcycles with all the restrictions/responsibilities.

Edit: For example, riders of a motorcycle or moped must carry insurance and
wear a helmet. Anything over 50cc and you need to pass a training course to
teach the rules of the road and basic manoeuvres. Cyclists do not need to pass
anything (or pay vehicle tax...). I'm unsure about my opinion on making human
powered vehicles abide by licensing/insurance requirements, but powered
vehicles really should do.

------
clarry
This is somewhat unrelated but, relevant enough I guess..

In Finland a bicycle must be equipped with (among other things) two reflectors
on each pedal, on the front face as well as on back. Unless it's daylight and
the bike weighs less than 10 kilos and has at least N (can't remember the
exact number) gears.

My bike is a fixed gear and I use clipless pedals. Even if it were technically
feasible to mount reflectors on the pedals, it'd be pointless because the shoe
snaps on to the pedal, hiding it almost entirely.

My bike is therefore illegal.

~~~
gohrt
Put reflectors on your shoes.

------
jt2190

      > You can use a hand-operated throttle or, on higher-end 
      > models, a power-assist function that kicks on the 
      > electric motor when you start turning the pedals.
    

Perhaps making a rule that says that the power available to a "bicycle" can
only be controlled through the pedals is what is needed. This would allow
power-assist type "bicycles", but would not allow for a no-pedaling, hand-
operated throttle type. (Those could be classified as "electric vehicles" or
something else.)

(Also, maybe the maximum wattage of power assistance should be capped to keep
it within the range possible from healthy humans.)

~~~
masklinn
That's already EU law: only assistance (no power-on-demand), capped at 25km/h
(~15mph) and 250W maximum.

US fed law allows power-on-demand, 32km/h (20mph) and 750W blocks. That's
closer to a slow scooter than a bike.

~~~
jt2190
Interesting. It seems like the main complaint from New York lawmakers is that
these vehicles _look_ like bicycles but behave in a decidedly non-bicycle
manner, i.e. accelerate when the rider isn't pedaling, accelerate faster than
a typical bicycle, achieve a top speed that is somewhat faster, etc.

Are the EU regulations good at bringing power-assist bicycles back into the
normal operating rages for regular bicycles? Or is rider behavior still very
different?

~~~
masklinn
I can't really tell you, I have no idea.

------
ollysb
Maybe the pedestrians could you know, learn how to judge the speed of moving
objects?! Plenty of couriers would be pedaling around on fixies at 20mph or
more anyway so I'm not really sure where the distinction lies.

~~~
buro9
I use bright (static, non-flashing) lights for this reason.

It's not that people cannot judge speed, but there seems to be an uncertainty
principle at play that is created by the assumptions of the person.

The key assumption is: "It's a bicycle and therefore moving at barely above
walking speed.".

So the 50ms glance is not repeated and no actual attempt is made to assess the
speed (and direction - must be the predictable one parallel to the road!) of
the cyclist.

Using lights changes this.

By making oneself more visible, even in bright daylight, to the point that the
light catches the attention. Then the person looking will look for a longer
period of time and get a sense of speed and direction.

It's important not to use flashing lights as people tend to be crap at
determining your location accurately and that throws off any calculation about
speed and direction.

As a cyclist the effect is very noticeable. Cars no longer pull out from side
roads in my line of travel, and pedestrians wait where they previously
would've thrown themselves into the road.

I don't see why NY couldn't just mandate that all electric-assist bicycles be
fitted with non-flashing lamps that must be permanently lit whilst the
electric assist is activated.

~~~
stcredzero
_> The key assumption is: "It's a bicycle and therefore moving at barely above
walking speed."._

It is possible to, you know, _perceive_ speed. It happens when people hit and
catch balls in sports. This is a criticism of people, not your idea.

What does the data say, I wonder? All I've seen here on HN are anecdotes.
There is research supporting lights aiding visibility in cars. Are there
numbers for the increased risk with electric bikes?

~~~
ufo
Speed perception in humans is notoriously bugged though.

------
Spooky23
I think the law (by accident) has a good point. These things move fast and
people on bikes are pretty awful at paying any attention to traffic laws.
(Mostly because the roads aren't engineered for them) These things are great
until you get run down by some idiot cutting a streetcorner on a sidewalk.

These things should be registered like any other motorized vehicle and have a
license plate.

~~~
antimagic
I'm not sure how your proposed solution is supposed to fix the problem you
identify. The "idiot"s will still cut across street corners, even with a plate
attached.

Also, I'm dubious that the purported problem is a big enough problem to
society that it outweighs the benefit (healthier populace, reduced traffic,
reduce pollution).

Do you plate requirements also apply to rollerbladers? They go at least as
fast, don't even have brakes, and are much more likely to be found up on the
sidewalk than any electric bike will ever be (sidewalks are annoying, they're
full of these obstacles called pedestrians - much better to ride on the road
where the obstacles move faster than you for the most part).

~~~
Spooky23
Here's a little story to add context. When I was 8, I was hit by a car by a
hit and run driver. The guy took a corner without stopping and clipped my
bike, throwing me over the handlebars. He got out of the car, said "oh shit",
and sped off. (Luckily, I only twisted an ankle, but the cops sent me to the
hospital to get checked out) That's hit and run, and was illegal in 1980's
NYC.

All I knew was that it was a blue sports car with a white dude, probably a
Camaro. But a bystander was able to jot down most of the license plate, and
the police found the guy. Because it was an accident, my parents health
insurance wouldn't cover the ER visit, but the guy's auto insurance company
did.

If this happened to you today, and you were hit by an unregistered vehicle,
it's far more likely that the operator will get away. There's no license
plate, and it's much more difficult for the cops to find a bike than a car.
And there's no insurance, so accident liability is a bigger issue as well.

As you pointed out, you need to draw the line somewhere, I'm not sure where
that line lies.

------
rurban
Finally a proof that New Yorkers are more stupid than anyone else. They cannot
predict the speed of approaching vehicles and thus have to be protected from
such vehicles. I wonder how the city council found proof for that claim.

------
ryankshaw
Somewhat off topic but I've been wanting to to get into an electric cycle.
There's been a lot of innovation in the space recently. I've seen some
kickstarters and stuff. I feel like we're on the brink between clunky,
expensive proof-of-concepts to good, solid, mass-produced (and thus more
economically viable) products. any recommendations?

------
ck2
My electric bicycle you can clearly see the huge hub (if you know what you are
looking for).

But my model is like 5 years old.

I saw a modern electric bike the other day and you'd never know, except the
person is going as fast as Armstrong on steroids without breaking a sweat.

~~~
dagw
What kind of bike was that? All the electric bikes I've seen travel quite a
bit slower than what a trained cyclist can do on a decent bike. Their main
selling point is "not breaking a sweat", not "go really fast".

~~~
ck2
My "old school" brushed motor electric bicycle can do 25mph, without pedal
assitance.

Apparently they have new brushless motors that fit into the rear hubs that can
do 30+ mph. Beyond that it is only a wind resistance problem. There are
hobbyists with 50mph electric bicycles which sounds crazy.

~~~
masklinn
Even under lax US federal law, these are not "bicycles" and are classified as
motor vehicles.

Public Law 107-319 defined "low-speed electrical vehicles" and altered the
motor vehicle safety standards to make these low-speed vehicles not considered
motor vehicles. Low-speed electrical vehicles are defined as:

1\. two- or three-wheeled

2\. fully operable pedals

3\. less than 750 watts (1hp)

4\. maximum speed (power-on-demand) of 20mph on a level surface with a rider
of 170 pounds

If it goes at 50mph, it's an electric motorcycle.

------
some1else
Does this apply to FlyKly? [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/flykly/flykly-
smart-whee...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/flykly/flykly-smart-wheel)

~~~
CountHackulus
It's a bike that has more than just pedal power, so yes.

------
mistercow
If the problem is that you can be at top speed without peddling, why not just
require that the peddles turn at a speed proportional to the power output of
the motor? The rider would rest their feet on the peddles and expend no
effort, and it would give the same signalling to pedestrians.

~~~
masklinn
> If the problem is that you can be at top speed without peddling

Not necessarily.

> why not just require that the peddles turn at a speed proportional to the
> power output of the motor?

EU laws require exactly that, and that's what the "pedelec" sub-category of
e-bikes do: pedaling assistance rather than power-on-demand (note: there's
also the s-pedelec sub-category, which also only does assist but has a more
powerful engine and maximum assisted speed than allowed for the "bicycle"
status in the EU, they are thus classified as mopeds if not motorcycles)

------
thehme
Hate the pop ups (adds or something on this article link). FF is black, so I
won't waste more time on it. In any case, sounds a if e-bikes are aka
e-scooters? Doesn't an e-bike defeat the purpose of a bike?

~~~
masklinn
> In any case, sounds a if e-bikes are aka e-scooters?

Not necessarily. Depends if its a pedelec or if it has power-on-demand. In the
first case, it can only do assistance while the user is pedaling. It is a less
tiring bike. In the latter, it is a slow moped (the pedals should remain
functional at all time, so you can use it as a bike if it's out of batteries).

> Doesn't an e-bike defeat the purpose of a bike?

Not if you consider the purpose of a bike to be moving around.

~~~
thehme
Ok, I see how running out of battery and having working pedals would be
necessary. I supposed one reason for wanting an e-bike would be to save money
on gas. Since my longest work commute on a bike was only of about 30 min
(~1yr), to me that was perfectly fine, but I can see longer commutes could
become exhausting when done on a daily basis.

~~~
masklinn
It's also useful for people who are out of shape, when the commute isn't flat
(assistance is great when going uphill) or when showers are not available at
the destination (in which case you want the effort to be low enough that you
won't sweat much).

