

How 1 HN post compelled me to leave Intuit and create a new startup for startups - bloggergirl
http://www.copyhackers.com/2011/10/18/how-1-hn-post-compelled-me-to-leave-intuit-create-new-startup-for-startups/

======
jonnathanson
Copywriting is taken for granted. Period. It's taken for granted in the
Fortune 500 world, where marketing departments view it as a cheap commodity.
And it's taken for granted at a lot of tech companies (Apple's being a notable
exception).

But it shouldn't be. And a project like this one -- not to mention the
founder/author's innovation and tenacity -- will help turn the tide.

There's certainly a fair amount of dark art to quality writing, but there's
also science. And it's refreshing to see a results-focused approach that seeks
to separate the merely mellifluous from the legitimately effective.

Big kudos on this one!

~~~
bloggergirl
Wow, jonnathanson, you couldn't be more spot-on! That's unfortunately how I
see it ---- the Fortune 500 world forgets that copy can have a huge impact on
sales/signups. (On the other hand, Groupon takes writing very seriously... but
I haven't heard that they pay very well; I'd be interested to hear how they
compensate writers.)

You should do a post on the subject!

~~~
jeffool
The company I'd like to know about is Woot.com; they need to pay their writers
by the truckload. I hit that site every day.

~~~
finnh
The woot "we got acquired" letter[1] was hilarious.

[1] <http://www.woot.com/Blog/ViewEntry.aspx?Id=13390>

shortest footnote marker-to-footnote distance ever?

------
0x12
What's very cool about this is that the page itself is actually a sample that
will sell you on the book.

Best marketing of the year award.

Really awesome.

~~~
bloggergirl
:) I'll take that award with a great big smile. Thanks!

~~~
lostMyPasswd
I may start a single-product(fruit) online store next year. I'm not a webdev
though do have programming bkground. Does your copy books have examples or
help to write copy for such websites or is it targetted more towards SaaS
products?

Maybe my Qn itself is unreasonable and maybe same principles apply everywhere,
in which case do let me know.

Secondly, since my potential usage of this will be sometime in future; when I
come down to it, will you be available offline for some clarifications help
needed with the material? If my help reqd becomes too much we can even discuss
some kind of compensation/consulting for you.

HN Mods/PG: Someone pls tell me how to recover my passwd of a very old
account!

~~~
0x12
Mail pg, he can reset it for you. The email address is not a secret, you can
find it easily enough.

~~~
lostMyPasswd
I've searched everywhere: here, YC, TC, his personal site - didn't find
anywhere. Or maybe my GoogleFoo is just failing me today. Mind sending me on
my throwaway ID: forwebsites AT gmail

throwaway because I'm just too embarrassed to expose my stupidity

------
dshah
Immediately went to go buy the bundle of 4 books (good copywriting!)

But, some friendly startup advice:

1\. There should be no reason to ask for my address and phone number and such
for a digital purchase with PayPal as the purchase option. Your close rate
would go up if you just let people go straight to PayPal -- and ask for those
details _after_ the purchase is done (eCommerce companies learned this a while
ago).

2\. You shouldn't have PayPal as the purchase option. It sucks for a number of
well documented reasons, and there are better options now.

3\. Once I tried to complete the PayPal transaction, got this error message:
<http://screencast.com/t/c5crNpyDg>

Happy to try again when you're ready. Just ping me.

~~~
todsul
Asking for the address for digital downloads is about your only defence
against PayPal's chargeback frenzy. Anyone who has sold digital downloads
knows how PayPal randomly returns money to customers (and let's them keep the
product) because "something triggered a response" in their system.

With physical goods, the seller is paid by default (when the seller responds).
With intangible goods, nothing the seller says can get the chargeback
reversed. You only get the money if the buyer responds, which they rarely do
because they are about to get a full refund and free product. PayPal's only
recommendation is to capture the address (and send a free CD). I found that
just capturing the address made the problem mostly go away. And with the
couple of chargebacks, when I responded with the address, I was paid.

~~~
WA
1\. I never experienced the described problem.

2\. Nothing prevents me from putting a fake address into the form. I just did.

3\. The web page does not use SSL-encryption. It doesn't process credit card
information, but it surely does process personal information such as my
address, which is enough to be a violation of privacy terms in Europe.

So, while I found the copy of this web page extremely interesting and it just
"worked" on me, the technical aspects were almost a deal-breaker for me and I
only circumvented the problem by providing a fake address.

------
richardw
I suggest (um...plead?) spitting them out as Kindle books, or at least making
the pdf less Kindle-hostile. I bought the bundle (great offer, thank you :)
and dragged it onto my Kindle. Font tiny, most prominent thing is the bottom
bar.

~~~
treo
I would also love a more ebook reader friendly format like Mobi or ePub. I
still bought it, because I might be able to convert it to something usable for
myself, but a version that is actually made for ebook readers (like the sony
prs-650 that I have myself :)) would be even better.

------
aik
I find it interesting how the HN post title isn't something like "Check out
these Copywriting books I wrote", but rather something that sounds like a
simple blog post but is instead a landing page for some ebooks.

Worked for me! I'm considering buying now...

~~~
petercooper
It's funny how it goes _just_ like a standard blog post for several paragraphs
and then.. BAM, it does a complete 180 into a sales pitch. Quite striking and
rather effective!

------
jheriko
Can we stop calling it "copy" outside of our niches? For most readers they
will infer the meaning you ascribe to the word from reading this article or
look it up... there are ample other, non-ambiguous, commonplace methods to
refer to text (that is one).

Its easy to slip on stuff like this when you are immersed in your speciality
and don't often talk to people outside of it... although as a programmer at
least I have the excuse of there not already being multiple unambiguous ways
to describe my subject matter. :)

However, I will not be surprised if this usage of copy becomes more popular -
both times I've seen it were on Hacker News in the last week.

~~~
bloggergirl
Someone posted a similar comment on my blog, too. I hadn't realized that
"copy" was such an unknown term that it would require defining or otherwise
explaining. That's my bad!

I don't think it's because I'm too close to copywriting (my sisters and
brothers constantly remind me that they have no idea what I do) but because I
assume people in this particular community will know about "copy" just as they
know about "interaction design" and "UI" --- and other terms my siblings don't
know.

Or maybe it's because I watch too much Mad Men and assume everyone else does,
too. ;) (In which case you'd know that Donald Draper and Peggy Olsen are both
[albeit fictional] copywriters.)

------
kabuks
Joanna, you really are a pro. Your generosity and your talent shine through. I
have no doubt this will be huge success.

Just bought the bundle. What a deal!

~~~
lucianof
Bought it as well. I couldn't find the "coupon" textbox though.. but
nevermind, $33 is still a good deal!

~~~
bloggergirl
Oh, no! Please contact me at joanna AT copyhackers.com and we'll get that
discount sorted out for you!!!

In case this is a problem for anyone else, the coupon code box is on the first
page of the cart/checkout, on the left side of the screen, just below the
product thumbnail.

~~~
imothee
This got me as well, luckily I saw this post. I went straight to the checkout
rather than the cart and never saw the coupon area either.

Bought and anxiously waiting for my email with the books! I've always had
trouble writing wishy washy content and need to do a huge update for SEO so
this couldn't have come at a better time!

Congratulations, thanks and best of luck all in one!

~~~
lucianof
Yup, I just tried it out again, because I felt stupid for not seeing the
textbox before. It seems I clicked "Add to Cart" and then directly "checkout"
last time. Because there is a cart icon next to "checkout" I didn't think
there would be another "cart"-view. But as I said, never mind! You can keep
the 15 dollars if you keep up the good work! :)

~~~
bloggergirl
Oh, no! We need to get that sorted out.

I don't want you to lose out on the discount! I don't want anyone to.

So please, if you're ordering, do not click the 'checkout' option but rather
be sure to start your 'funnel' process at the page marked "CART".

(I had a pro QA person do the QA on the site, and he didn't notice this glitch
either... so we're both quite unhappy about it.)

------
alexholehouse
_This_ is what HN, as an extension of the startup community, is about. Awesome
product and awesome back story. [Sorry, I know this isn't a particularly
"productive" post...]

~~~
bloggergirl
As the author of the post, I find it particularly productive. ;)

------
mindstab
This itself is a compelling example. The bundle discount + the 50% off further
hacker news discount makes it a very attractive purchase, and that itself is a
compelling demonstration of his knowledge and reason to buy the books :) He
knows how to sell

~~~
raquo
sorry to nitpick but she's a she.

------
thematt
Congratulations!

I'm sure there is a market for companies who would rather pay to have it
written for them -- I know I'd certainly be interested. Any thoughts on
launching a startup that does copywriting for companies/people? Perhaps charge
by the word or page?

~~~
kabuks
I second that. I'm lucky you do all my copywriting for free, but I would have
been happy to pay hundreds of dollars for your time.

------
camz
I think the site is buckling under the HN stress lol, especially the checkout
cart. I doubt that this would be an issue under normal circumstances, but I
just wanted to let you know that the site is getting tons of attention.
Congrats! =D

~~~
whazzmaster
I really wanted to purchase but would rather not send CC info over non-SSL
connections. Are you going to be putting the store on SSL at some point?

Or maybe it is supposed to be but there are some fallbacks being used under
the current heavy load.

~~~
JoshTriplett
AFAICT the credit card processing all happens through PayPal. However, I don't
particularly want to provide all the other billing information on a non-SSL
page either.

I tried manually going to <https://www.copyhackers.com/> , but that tries to
serve an SSL certificate for webcopygirl.com (which looks like a parked
domain).

Configuration problems, or lack of SSL certificate? If the latter, do you
already know about StartCom (<https://www.startssl.com/>)? They provide
domain-validated certificates for free.

~~~
bloggergirl
We actually are working on this. We're relying on PayPal's security where the
credit card information comes into play. Where my site is concerned - the
sales side of it with only your address taken - we are working on it....
PayPal's already got this covered off, of course.

------
vasco
I'm curious, there is a "money back guarantee" line on the site. How does this
work for ebooks? I buy it and I can ask for my money back? How do I "return"
the ebook?

Is this usual for other electronic goods? (ie. software)

~~~
pluies
I think this is a way to show the author isn't pulling a bait-and-switch or
just interested in taking your money. If you're not happy, you can have your
money back, period.

There is a certain level of trust involved, because there is indeed no way to
"return" the ebook (well, set aside complicated and broken solutions like
DRM). Most people are honest enough to acknowledge the usefulness of the
ebook, and won't ask for their money back if they're satisfied (even though
objectively they _could_ lie and get that money back).

I've seen this a few times, and it seems like a great way to build confidence.

~~~
petercooper
I know people who do this on $1000+ training courses. It's priced into their
business. The refund rates aren't as high as you'd think :-)

I do it too but only on small things. I haven't done a single refund yet over
several hundred sales.

Other than increasing the likelihood of a sale, the benefit of offering a
guarantee like this is you get less flack from your payment provider (since
they can see you'll refund if anyone's dissatisfied) and you can avoid nearly
all chargebacks. If someone doesn't want to pay, they'll find a way to get
around it anyway, so you might as well make it frictionless.

~~~
bloggergirl
Yeah, those things are all true --- I know that the satisfaction guarantee can
increase conversions, so that's something I consider from a marketing
perspective.

But I really do want people to tell me if the book doesn't meet their
expectations and to know that they can get their money back. It just seems
wrong to offer no recourse. (Hopefully the ebook samples will help people
before they buy, though, so fewer people return products.)

And, yes, there's no way to return a digital copy. It's just a trust/honor
thing, I guess. :) You tell me you're not satisfied, and I give you your money
back. Done.

------
ddehghan
I bought a copy. Very happy to support a fellow HN reader.

A couple of humble suggestion for you:

$$$: You may want to sell this as lifetime subscription to each mini-
book/magazine. Have each buyer opt-in to receive a life-time update once every
quarter. People lose digital assets all the time so it is nice to get an
updated one regularly. Also every 4 months you get change to nudge people to
read it or re-read it to see what is new. If someone forwards it along you
will end up capturing a percentage of people that got the pirated version
because people don’t want to read stale content. By a putting an issue/version
number on it you make people feel left out and upgrade to the latest version.
( ☺ hehe. I have worked for Microsoft for too long.)

Every time I get a new email from you I would not thing it spam if you attach
a updated version of the book to it. ☺

Then you can sell additional book chapters to your subscriber base over time.
Or bundle in other services that people would find interesting.

Branding: Copy is a very specific term. To increase your audience I would
suggest re-branding your content and call it text or something to that effect.

Domain name: You have a great domain name. You can rebrand your content as
“copy from the best hackers” meaning copy ideas from the best hackers.

Looking forward to reading your book.

------
swanson
I bought it - but why do you need my billing address/phone number for an
ebook. I was glad to see the PayPal option, but I was slightly put off by
giving you all that info.

I can see wanting my name for doing a watermark and my email so you can send
me an update when the next book in the series comes out, but the rest seemed
unnecessary so you might want to consider removing them as "Required Fields".

~~~
bloggergirl
All good questions. I'm using WooCommerce theme for WordPress, which ties into
PayPal, and those are required fields. We don't store any personal
information... unless you choose to create an account (and then you can modify
that account, too!). Oh, and - obviously - we don't collect or store any
credit card info; we leave all of that to the experts at PayPal. Sorry if it's
a problem at all!!!

~~~
ktsmith
I also bought it, and didn't have a problem entering my information assuming
it was for billing reasons. Then I see the paypal option which was a huge turn
off, but understandable since it's a new company.

I actually disliked the entire check out process. Database connection errors,
failed to accept a strong password (randomly generated and including symbols)
and failed with an uninformative error requiring me to navigate back to the
checkout process and re-enter all my information. Then I check my email and my
user name and password have been sent back to me. Everything about the site is
great until you get to the checkout process which is really clunky.

------
nnythm
it is disconcerting to have your password emailed to you. are you storing the
passwords in cleartext? Would definitely prefer if you didn't.

~~~
bigiain
I'd guess that's the standard Wordpress account reg email - Wordpress _does_
email you a cleartext password, but it does also hash the password and only
stores the hash.

I think it's a reasonable tradeoff - those of us with properly managed
password storage can delete the email, but the 99% who _don't_ use some form
of password safe can keep using their email archive as their place to look up
passwords they've forgotten. (I see this a _lot_ in our clients non-technical
Wordpress site subscribers...)

~~~
izak30
I know this is "standard wordpress". The problem with this is that your email
isn't secure password storage, neither is the delivery of your email. Reset
forgotten passwords, don't store or transfer them in plain text. Please.

~~~
bigiain
You're right. Except most of the world doesn't know it (yet).

_Lots_ of (mainly non-technical) people _do_ use their email archive as their
"(not so) secure password storage".

As someone who regularly deals with website owners with non-technical
audiences, I see all the time that this decision by the Wordpress devs is
almost certainly a sensibly pragmatic choice. Those of us who know and care
about password security can deal with it - delete the email when it arrives,
if you're particularly paranoid go back and change it (I'm pretty sure
Wordpress only does this on signup, not on password changes).

Until my mom uses 1Passwork or KeyPassX or PasswordSafe (or an equivalent), I
can easily see why many many Wordpress site owners think this is the right
compromise between password security and useability.

------
vaksel
the problem with writing copy is that a lot of companies that do it suck at
it. I wrote my own copy, ran with it. Then decided to do it "right" and hire a
professional to do it for me. Well the copy I got was pretty average, to a
point where I felt my own copy was better.

I think part of it, is that when you do the job yourself, you can revisit it
time and time again to polish it. Hiring someone just gets you that first
rough draft, that might be better than your own rough draft, but is subpar,
since the person didn't spend the time to perfect it.

------
ssharp
Thanks for offering the discount to HN - I just purchased the collection and
look forward to diving in.

I think it was a fantastic idea to scrap the 300-page book and focus on more
bite-sized readings. Tackling a 300-page book can be a lot to ask of a reader,
especially if they are spending a lot of their time producing products. A
50-page book makes more sense to me. I can work through 50 pages in a short
period of time, feel like I've just learned a complete concept, and start
implementing it right away.

Best of luck and great work!

------
stupandaus
I browsed it at work and it looked great!

Unfortunately, I came home to order and found this: Database Error - Error
establishing a database connection

~~~
robriggen
I had that happen to me. Just wait a sec and retry. It will work if you do
this.

------
splicer
I just bought the bundle using paypal. Will I receive an email with a download
link soon? That part of the process wasn't very clear...

~~~
robriggen
You have to go back to the site and log in, then click on your account link.
The download link can be found there

~~~
splicer
Crap! I didn't bother creating an account when I checked-out :(

~~~
zemaj
I have the exact same problem. Paid, but no ebook. Sent an email an hour ago
but haven't heard back :(

~~~
jrockway
Clearly this is an opportunity for a startup helping startups that write books
for startups.

------
marquis
Thanks, just downloaded and it's on my reading list. I already powered through
the first few pages of book 1 to check it out and you've made me want to go
and rewrite all our copy immediately! Brilliant stuff that will really, really
help us. Thank you!

------
robriggen
Great deal and one of the things I have been needing for my start up
(www.flyinghighcoffee.com). I saw a few load issues when checking out but I
stuck with it and got it done.

Safari won't download the file, though when I try to get it from my iPad.

~~~
robriggen
I just realized there's an app for zip files on the iPad (which I don't have).
I already unzipped them on my PC and emailed them to myself. Ignore my
nitpick! And thanks for the resource - it looks like it is going to be a great
help to me.

~~~
bloggergirl
I hope it is a great help! Checked out your site, too (I love coffee but am
not much of a flyer). Maybe I can offer you some copy optimization tips in an
upcoming [video] optimization session, to be posted on my blog. Free, of
course. I'd be happy to.

------
jeffool
Hate to be a bother, but as someone curious about getting into copywriting I
wonder if you'd mind trading a few emails with me? No pressure, obviously. And
I know you've got a lot going on right now, just, if you get the time.

~~~
bloggergirl
Totally would! Fire me off an email at joanna AT copyhackers DOT com. Very
happy to chat.

------
ljf
Love it, great read - only half way through the first book, but so much useful
stuff!

Any chance of an epub version though? Would then be easier to read on my phone
and ebook reader.

------
robfitz
I want to buy this, but the checkout fails for me (bad merchant address?) and
there's no email address to contact you in either your HN profile or the site.
How do I seek help?

------
5partan
From your site:

Eack book is dedicated to one topic you can master, like writing headlines

"extended acknowledgement book", advanced subliminal typo marketing :)

~~~
bloggergirl
Someone else emailed me about this typo! So embarrassing. Will correct. Thanks
for letting me know...

------
matdwyer
I've never bought an ebook before, but I'm highly considering this. Great job
"selling" me on something I don't overly need!

------
craze3
I'm glad that you're receiving all this praise because of your exceptional
product, and not just because you're a girl ;)

~~~
EponymousCoward
Woman, boy.

------
earle
Hopefully others will order this without using the coupon code as well. It's
worth the full thirty bucks

------
Roritharr
Thank you so much, i really needed good copywriting advice, take my 17
Dollars!

------
wilhelm
This looks interesting. Can I get these books on my Kindle?

~~~
swanson
You could run it through Calibre, looks like most of it should convert cleanly
(not tons of diagrams/graphics).

------
seymores
Bought it and loved it. Thanks for the discount!

