
Microsoft Removes the Option to Opt Out of Windows 10 Free Upgrade? - sanqui
http://techfrag.com/2015/10/16/microsoft-completely-removes-option-opt-windows-10-free-upgrade/
======
dang
Is this story true? If so, can anyone find a more substantive source for it?

In the meantime, we added a question mark to the title.

~~~
thaumaturgy
Ars Technica is saying that they contacted Microsoft and got a statement that
it was a "mistake": [http://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2015/10/window...](http://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2015/10/windows-10-upgrade-installing-automatically-on-some-
windows-7-8-systems/)

edit: that's from October 15 (Thursday) and might or might not be the same
issue, hard to say.

~~~
dang
Ok, in that case this submission is a dupe of
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10400807](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10400807).
Thank you!

~~~
ZoF
yes, this is correct.

------
peeters
> While switching to a new OS, especially Windows 10 is definitely a good move

Who is claiming this? Maybe for hardware known to have good Windows 10 support
it's a good move. For me, I've had more blue screens in the last month than I
had in the 10 years before that. Lots of poor driver support (fingerprint
reader doesn't work, touchpad reverts settings after every boot, crashes).

The user experience is an upgrade from my perspective, but the upgrade has
been anything but painless.

~~~
scrollaway
When I installed windows 10 last week I had the .. pleasure... to look at the
various privacy options.

During the installation, Windows uses weasel words to present the user with
privacy settings hiding the option to change them at all. Take a look:

[https://jonathan.porta.codes/images/posts/2015/07/window-10-...](https://jonathan.porta.codes/images/posts/2015/07/window-10-privacy-
settings-1.png)

In "express settings":

* Send contact, calendar and input data to Microsoft

* Send typing and inking data to Microsoft

* Let apps use your Advertising ID for "experiences across apps" (I'm not making this shit up)

* Send microsoft and "trusted partners" location data

* Turn on SmartScreen (Admittedly I don't know exactly how it works but seeing as it's in those options I can take a horrifying guess on the implications)

* Send your browsing data to Microsoft to "make your overall experience better" (WTF wording)

* Autoconnect to shared networks

* Autoconnect to suggested open hotspots

Damn. And then, one that's not in there which you have to find for yourself,
if you even know about it: P2P share windows updates with _any windows
computer on the internet_.

Ho-ly-crap. I like W10 as an OS so far but this stuff is just insane.

BTW, the only reason I went with W10 was that W7 doesn't support GPT.

Sources:

[http://www.howtogeek.com/224352/what%E2%80%99s-the-
differenc...](http://www.howtogeek.com/224352/what%E2%80%99s-the-difference-
between-windows-10%E2%80%99s-express-or-custom-setup/)

[http://www.howtogeek.com/224981/how-to-stop-
windows-10-from-...](http://www.howtogeek.com/224981/how-to-stop-
windows-10-from-uploading-updates-to-other-pcs-over-the-internet/)

Edit: Yikes:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SmartScreen#SmartScr...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SmartScreen#SmartScreen_in_Windows_8)

~~~
newman314
I posted this in a different thread yesterday but am reposting here for the
folks that do move to Win10.

\--

PSA: For people with Windows 10 installed, I've found the following tool quite
useful in shutting down the large amount of information collected.

[http://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10](http://www.oo-
software.com/en/shutup10)

~~~
scrollaway
Thank you. That looks great.

------
AdmiralAsshat
Old and inaccurate: [http://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2015/10/window...](http://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2015/10/windows-10-upgrade-installing-automatically-on-some-
windows-7-8-systems/)

Microsoft has said the force push was a mistake. I suppose you could argue
their sincerity on that, but the fact remains that they did remove it.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
That was about Windows Update "mistakenly" installing Windows 10.

The OP is about GWX removing the option to delay the upgrade.

~~~
WorldWideWayne
I wonder how all of the Microsoft haters who think this is "not a mistake"
feel about other conspiracy theories?

What do you know about lizard people?

~~~
compbio
You may be interested in this older documentary:
[https://youtu.be/DfsK6DuNhnc?t=2208](https://youtu.be/DfsK6DuNhnc?t=2208)
about the psychology of conspiracy theorists. The psychologists claim that
they can predict who will believe in conspiracy theories, and they use as a
dividing test the following question to separate conspiracy theorists from
healthy trustful people:

"The government is using mobile phone technology to track people all the time.
Yes/No."

Also includes an interview with David Icke.

I don't think that question is decisive anymore...

~~~
tux3
It's a pretty sad world when the conspiracy "nutjobs" turn out to be right..

~~~
togusa
Don't worry there's still plenty of wrong out there to be (
www.abovetopsecret.com )

------
compbio
This would run afoul of the European 'cookie law' (the name is a bit of a
misnomer as it applies to more than just cookies). In short: Microsoft needs
express permission to store/modify files on _my_ computer.

It will probably be spun like Windows 10 is a security update to old OS's, but
that is simply not sincere. Given the problematic privacy/sharing/phone-home
settings on Windows 10 one can hardly call it a security improvement.

    
    
      You must tell people if you set cookies, and clearly 
      explain what the cookies do and why. You must also get
      the user’s consent. Consent can be implied, but must be
      knowingly given.
    
      The same rules also apply if you use any other type of
      technology to store or gain access to information on
      someone’s device.
    

[https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-
pecr/cookies-a...](https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-pecr/cookies-
and-similar-technologies/)

    
    
      [Under the cookie law permission is needed to] store 
      or gain access to data on the peripherals of a user 
      through an electronic communication network.
    

[http://www.justitia.nl/cookiewet.html](http://www.justitia.nl/cookiewet.html)

    
    
      Article 5.3) Member States shall ensure that the use 
      of electronic communications networks to store 
      information or to gain access to information stored in
      the terminal equipment of a subscriber or user is only
      allowed on condition that the subscriber or user
      concerned is provided with clear and comprehensive
      information in accordance with Directive 95/46/EC,
      inter alia about the purposes of the processing, and 
      is offered the right to refuse such processing by the
      data controller.
    

[http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:...](http://eur-
lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32002L0058:EN:HTML)

~~~
tajen
The total of fines Microsoft has already faced from the European Commission is
€2bn. It's mostly for forgetting to give the browser choice in Vista, if I
remember well, after doing it properly in XP, and for not publishing the
documentation of an API. On the other hand, given automatic upgrades are now a
habit, and given Microsoft's monopoly is on a very narrower market (so, not
sure it's a monopoly), I'm not sure they can be pursued, if the story is
confirmed. Unless we also pursue Chrome's automatic updates.

~~~
compbio
Most users will (rightly so) view this as an OS upgrade, not as an update. You
already gave MS permission to provide you with security updates. You did not
give MS permission to upgrade your OS. I feel the difference is of importance
as updates are often necessary, while upgrades are not.

    
    
      This update installs the Get Windows 10 app, which
      helps users understand their Windows 10 upgrade options
      and device readiness.
    

[https://support.microsoft.com/en-
us/kb/3035583](https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3035583)

~~~
Silhouette
One type of update is fixing a defect in the original product -- closing a
security vulnerability that should never have been there, fixing some function
that didn't work as advertised because of a bug, that kind of thing.

Another type of update changes to the product in ways that are not necessary
for the original product to be used as intended. They may be desirable for the
customer and/or the developer, and there's nothing wrong with that. However,
from the point of view of things like consumer protection law that says you
should get what you paid for and it should work as advertised, these two cases
look qualitatively different to me.

------
ferongr
Personally after KB3035583 that I had hidden before, was re-enabled and
installed automatically, I started feeling bothered by that fact. That was the
final push that led me to nuking my Windows 7 partition and jumping to Xubuntu
GNU/Linux.

~~~
thom
I'm getting _so_ bored of having to click on every knowledge base article to
see exactly what each of the updates do, in order to hide (week after week)
the two or three that try and sneak Get Windows 10 in. I'm getting less and
less likely to install _any_ updates.

------
pcunite
My concern with Windows 10, and I expect it to get addressed, is having a
platform underneath me keep changing. I don't want to get in my car one day
and find out that the gas pedal has changed positions with the brake. I expect
my OS to be just as consistent in this regard.

So, for me, I need a way to say, "I don't ever want to upgrade automatically.
I'll upgrade when I'm ready".

~~~
d2xdy2
On a tangent, how do you feel about Tesla doing OTA updates for core
functionality on their cars? Stuff like "autopilot" and whatnot.

~~~
pcunite
In this specific instance, it sounds like an "extra" and not a "change". So, I
would be okay with that. However, I don't own a Tesla so I can't say for sure.
For me personally, I don't want upgrades that throw away all my muscle memory
in the name of "design". As more and more people enter the software
development ecosystem, they're going to need to learn (the hard way) that
sometimes "boring" is the right thing to do.

~~~
cma
The update also apparently changed the dashboard and rearranged common things
like your current speed.

------
Silhouette
This article seems to be light on specifics and completely devoid of
verifiable sources.

If Microsoft actually did force an involuntary upgrade this, it seems likely
they would be on the receiving end of real lawsuits or even facing criminal
charges for unauthorised access to computer systems (particularly if they did
it to anyone who had actively avoided installing or keeping earlier updates
related to Windows 10), not to mention any later formal data protection
complaints over Windows 10's privacy implications, opening the floodgates to
complaints under consumer protection legislation, and other risks. Even given
that I wouldn't trust Microsoft as far as I could throw it at this point, I
still doubt they're arrogant/naive enough to go that far.

Is this just a vaguely rehashed story about one of the optional updates being
ticked by default from the other day?

~~~
ac29
I'll be an anecdotal, but verifiable source.

"[...] since whenever you restart or shut down your PC, the next time you use
it, the machine will start installing Windows 10".

This is absolutely false on at least 2 PCs I manage (one Win7 home, one Win8.1
home, both have had the tray icon offering the free upgrade for months). They
have both been restarted in the past couple days and neither has upgraded
itself to Win10.

------
userbinator
_While switching to a new OS, especially Windows 10 is definitely a good move_

Microsoft would certainly promote that view, but is it really? Am I one of the
minority of users who prefers a stable environment customised exactly as I
want it, instead of "latest and greatest"?

~~~
IvyMike
There have been some pretty significant under-the-hood security upgrades in
each new version of Windows. So while the UI changes are what users notice,
the new security features are probably the more important reason to upgrade.

~~~
userbinator
The security features seem to be more about protecting users from themselves
and other users on the same machine than remote exploits though, which may be
OK for "average users" and terminal-server type environments but definitely a
negative for advanced users/developers who don't want the OS thinking it knows
better than them, and are probably the only user.

Remote exploits that don't require any user action (i.e. simply be connected
to the network and get pwned) are the _really_ important ones to worry about,
but are thankfully very rare. Newer versions of Windows come with more network
services that only add more, unknown, attack area; and they are seldom
actually needed because I have no use for those features.

~~~
brazzledazzle
Even power users are still vulnerable to exploits that are executed by a site
you're visiting or image/video you're viewing. And exploits that take
advantage of privilege escalation don't just protect multi-user systems, they
protect you if you're running as a limited user or if you're using UAC. It's a
scary world out there for everyone, even if you don't run plugins in your
browsers.

------
everyone
I'm assuming this didnt apply to enterprise customers? The move from xp to 7
was a big deal for IT departments everywhere. I cant imagine them moving on
from 7 anytime soon.

~~~
stephengillie
Windows 7/8/8.1 Enterprise don't have the upgrade option. I installed Win8
Enterprise over a year ago, it's never mentioned an upgrade.

------
a3n
I wonder if the license allows this. "We can arbitrarily change the OS version
that you are running."

Since you bought (a license) for Windows 7, I would think if Windows 10
degrades your experience sufficiently, you might prevail in small claims
court.

------
pvdebbe
This must be false, or a mistake on MS' part. For example, what about the
users who have perfectly valid full Win 7 licenses (that you can move from a
PC to another) would be forced to upgrade to a partial Win 10 license that
invalidates as soon as they do major hardware upgrades?

------
joesmo
This is criminal. I think a case could be made here for unauthorized access
under the CFAA for users who don't want to switch but are switched anyway.
Microsoft is clearly overstepping its bounds and accessing files that it has
no permission to. In fact, there's no way to know what it's accessing and W10
can actually be seen as malware that intentionally sends data to MS (which it
does).

The only reason we're not looking at criminal charges here is because this is
MS. There is absolutely no difference between this W10 behavior and malware
except that most malware is nowhere near this harmful. And in this case, we
know that MS has both a motive and actual intent to do harm and access a
system it was not given authorization to access.

------
xamuel
Up until 2013 or so, I was always a PC guy. I _wanted_ to be a PC guy. But
Microsoft did, and continues to do, everything in their power to change my
mind about that. I still have one old laptop running Windows 7, the instant
they force-upgrade that is the instant I bid adieu to the last remnant of
Microsoft in my home computing life.

~~~
vezzy-fnord
Speaking of which, using the term "PC" to describe x86 Windows machines
somewhat compatible with IBM PC standards (a.k.a. "Wintel") desperately needs
to die.

~~~
pvdebbe
Yes. It is infuriating to hear the phrase "PC or linux"

------
charonn0
I'm skeptical. If it's true then Microsoft's legal department dropped the
ball: lawsuits of the class-action and anti-trust variety would promptly
follow such a move.

------
slowmovintarget
I've gone to great lengths to avoid Windows 10 and its back-ported features
but installing patches marked "Security update" now tries to download and
install Window 10. Enough!

 _My story:_

A few months ago, I trusted MS to provide necessary updates to my system. This
means when they said something was an improvement, I accepted this and
installed the update. For my trust I got the Get Windows 10! Ad-Ware
installed. "'Reserve' your copy today" it said. Sounds good, I can reserve the
free upgrade but wait to install it until the dust settles and I can make a
reasonable decision about those apps that won't work any more. I "reserved" my
copy.

What this really meant is that I had scheduled the upgrade. Windows Update had
now become Microsoft's beachhead for capturing my PC. The release date came
and Windows update was going to go ahead and install Windows 10. No prompt. No
choice to leave it on my hard drive and install later. It was doing it...
right then and there.

I rolled the system back to a restore point and hid the upgrade. No matter.
Win Update had its heart set on getting Win 10 installed. Those new security
patches... Nope, Win 10. That update to the keyboard drivers... Nope, Win 10.
So I rolled up my sleeves and began hours of research and diving into forums
and the registry and reboots and...

I uninstalled the updates for the GWX application. Removed its registry keys,
cleared its directories, uninstalled the preparatory updates related to it. I
marked them all as hidden. Success; Windows Update was doing normal updates
again.

Then Microsoft back-ported the "user telemetry" system from Windows 10 to Win
7 and pushed it as a pair of updates. "Eases the upgrade experience" their KB
article said, but I knew enough now not to trust that. I had to find
alternative reviews of every KB. Now every update MS pushed was suspicious.
The software that was supposed to keep my machine secure and running properly,
was now the software attempting to erode my control over my hardware. Even
though I had hidden the updates for the GWX app and the user telemetry
"enhancements" Microsoft put them back in the update queue by reissuing them.
_Hide_ says I.

Now, with the latest round of updates, I carefully select only those marked as
"Security updates", having read the KBs and confirmed them with non-Microsoft
sources.

 _Update_

    
    
      Downloading Windows 10
    

Whisky Tango Foxtrot! I click stop. I write this.

I hate what Microsoft is doing here.

------
port6667
I guess i'm the only one who's happy enough with Windows 10. What i'm not
happy about is lazy companies not making updated drivers for Win10.

TP-Link i'm looking at you

~~~
SyneRyder
I've been very happy with Windows 10, it has completely revitalised some 9
year old hardware I still have. But I've been very lucky, I can't expect
manufacturers to keep writing drivers for free for a decade. Seems that if
Microsoft wants to keep consumers upgrading, they also need to continue driver
compatibility so the old hardware still runs.

------
Asmod4n
This "free" upgrade is currently disabled on "Pro" Versions of Windows.

If anything like this happens on those versions a lot of business might get
into trouble.

~~~
stephengillie
Enterprise version, actually. Pro still pushes the upgrade.

------
ck2
Let's see them upgrade my XP

Switching to osx at the end of year anyway, never realized how linux-like the
back-end was, I would have switched sooner.

------
Overtonwindow
I'm glad I waited. Perhaps I am one of the few who is ..ok with using Windows
8. I don't feel the need to upgrade, and I'm deeply hesitant to upgrade for
fear of something like this. I am taking risks with security, but it's either
this or go Linux; I'm terrible with the command line.

------
wj
I run Windows 8 inside Virtual Box but the Windows 10 upgrade won't install
due to a graphics driver issue. Hoping that is fixed so I don't get left out
in the cold.

------
jimktrains2
What about people with bandwidth caps?

~~~
pdkl95
Take Microsoft to small claims court for any over-limit fees caused by forced
downloads.

------
mahouse
Absolutely no sources.

------
romanovcode
I don't see the problem TBH. It seems that hey should be forcing upgrades so
people will finally stop complaining about IE and other outdated stuff.

Guess some can never be satisfied no matter what.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
Thus far I have been spared the plague because my Boot Camp partition has less
than a gigabyte of free space, so Microsoft can't install Windows 10 for me
even if they want to.

------
jrockway
On the one hand, Microsoft gets criticized for abandoning millions of machines
by dropping support for XP. Then, Microsoft gets criticized for not letting
that happen with Windows 7 and 8 by keeping them up to date.

Do people tend to complain about Chrome's auto updates?

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
OS upgrades aren't directly comparable to automatically-updating software.
They bring big changes and break compatibility. In the case of Windows 10, it
merges two UI paradigms together. When software updates itself, it doesn't
typically hop to the next major version, anyway. Chrome and evergreen software
like it are exceptions.

This is especially true for Windows, which doesn't have a seamless upgrade
process.

~~~
ksml
Not only is there an issue of the user interface changing significantly, but
there are also driver issues when manufacturers are slow to release updated
drivers (big problems for older devices). Anecdotal, but I have heard many
people complain of increased blue screens.

------
davnicwil
I may have some of the facts wrong here, but I think this means that upgraded
systems will also start to run Microsoft's evergreen browser Edge, in place of
IE, as the default browser.

It seems like this aspect, at least, could be a very good thing. Thinking
about the very non-technical and casual user who uses the default IE and
doesn't upgrade/switch for no particular reason other than some mixture of
doesn't know it'll be better/afraid of breaking something/doesn't know how.

It'll just kill all those IE 8s/9s/10s still running out there that, really,
should be replaced. Yes, it's a little brute force, but I can't see this being
anything other than a good thing for (the vast majority of) these users and
for developers.

~~~
lucb1e
> I can't see this being anything other than a good thing for (the vast
> majority of) these users and for developers.

For developers? I think they are quite capable of deciding for themselves.

For users? Here I can see where you're coming from, but let's think this
through:

\- Some users know how stuff works. They'll upgrade when they want to, no need
to force them.

\- Some users have no clue about how stuff works, but they know someone who
does (e.g. my grandma and me). If there would be an opt-out of this forced
upgrade, that someone (me) could perform that on their computer and upgrade
them when they're ready. But there is no opt out, so instead they (me) will
have a hell of an explaining job on their hands. It might actually be the
perfect excuse to install Ubuntu since the only reason not to is because
they're "used to Windows now". And remember, this group didn't need a forced
upgrade in the first place since they have someone who helps them stay up to
date and does stuff that needs doing.

\- Some users have no clue and have nobody to help them. There's no point
trying to get them the latest updates when they'll click accept on anything
their screen tells them to accept (e.g. fake flash update). Some protection is
better than none and thus Edge is better than IE8, I agree on that, but I'm
not sure there is that much of a point. And they may become unable to use a
computer altogether with a disruptive change like this.

In other words, nobody benefits. Maybe not even Microsoft, but I can't tell
yet.

~~~
davnicwil
> For developers? I think they are quite capable of deciding for themselves.

Sorry, to be clear on this I mean devs building the stuff users use, as in no
more need to support older, less standards-compliant, less fully-featured
browsers. It saves an incredible amount of effort, time, money and stress.

I'm not even saying Edge is good, I'm just saying it's evergreen and
regardless of its current state you'd hope it will only improve in these areas
over time, and getting users on it removes the upgrade issue now and
forevermore.

As for the three categories, I'm emphatically talking about the last one,
which is absolutely massive. I used to work at a company where a significant
proportion of our userbase was composed of this type of person. Lots of money
is wasted on this problem, which is so easy to fix. It's a hugely important
consideration, unless your market is developers or technologists, in which
case this isn't an issue at all.

~~~
lucb1e
> I'm emphatically talking about the last [category], which is absolutely
> massive. I used to work at a company where a significant proportion of our
> userbase was composed of this type of person. Lots of money is wasted on
> this problem, which is so easy to fix.

I see what you mean but still, an opt-out button would pretty much solve
everything. Forcing everyone is just a bad move I think.

