
Beyond Meat and KFC partner to test fried plant-based ‘chicken’ - _bxg1
https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/26/20833145/beyond-meat-kfc-fried-chicken-test-plant-based-sample-date
======
_bxg1
I think it's fascinating how all these fast-food chains are jumping on
artificial meat. It makes perfect sense: meat is expensive and difficult to
work with, so low-cost chains like these have been serving really disgustingly
low-quality meat for quite some time now; in some cases it could barely even
be called meat.

Plant-based meat, on the other hand, can be both cheaper _and_ less gross at
the same time, _and_ it might help them cut down on calories and improve their
health image.

I wonder what impact it'll have on climate change when McDonalds stops buying
real beef.

~~~
tptacek
Can you make a clearer, better-cited case for "low cost chains serve meat that
could barely even be called meat"? KFC serves (primarily) whole muscle
chicken†, and the general US appetite for "dark meat" chicken is so low that
we've been accused of "dumping" it on other countries and messing up their
markets --- KFC seems to have no trouble sourcing its inputs effectively.
KFC's suppliers include all the major chicken producers; the same firms that
put chicken breasts on the shelves at grocery stores. KFC's biggest competitor
is going antibiotic-free this year; at least one of KFC's suppliers already
has. That's a step _past_ supermarket chicken.

I'm not saying Tyson chicken is _good_ ; it's CAFO meat, which is not great
for the environment or for flavor. But it's not "barely meat"; it's meat that
basically sets the standard for meat quality in one of the meat-eatingest
countries in the world, and has set that standard for over 50 years.

† _Don 't get me started on how irresponsible the public interest campaign
against transglutaminase franken-meat is._

~~~
flyGuyOnTheSly
>Can you make a clearer, better-cited case for "low cost chains serve meat
that could barely even be called meat"?

Taco bell famously admit a few years ago that their beef filling was only 88%
beef.

CBC did an investigative report in Canada recently that revealed subway's
chicken was only 50% chicken. [0] The rest being a smörgåsbord of fillers. The
4 other chains studied in the tests didn't do much better.

[0] [https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/marketplace-chicken-fast-
fo...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/marketplace-chicken-fast-
food-1.3993967)

~~~
rayiner
You’re conflating two different things. One is the meat used in the Taco Bell
filling, which is 100% beef. Two is the overall composition of the filling,
which you’d obviously not expect to be 100% beef. (If you put onions in your
taco filling, by that same math, your taco filling isn’t 100% beef either.)

There is also nothing “gross” about the additives used in the filling, which
are primarily there to improve texture. They are widely used and perfectly
safe: [https://firstwefeast.com/eat/2014/05/tacobell-beef-
ingredien...](https://firstwefeast.com/eat/2014/05/tacobell-beef-ingredients-
revealed). (For some reason people go “eww” when soy lecithin is used at Taco
Bell, but don’t utter a peep when it’s used in some fancy foam in a high end
restaurant. It’s all in peoples’ heads, and there is also a large amount of
classism involved.)

~~~
inimino
High end restaurants aren't skimping on ingredients to survive on razor thin
margins in a cut-throat value-driven market segment.

~~~
rayiner
What difference does that make?

~~~
inimino
The outcome is going to be different if a chef uses an unusual ingredient to
create an experience, vs a chain using that same ingredient to cut costs,
because they have different incentives. The chain has an incentive to buy from
the cheapest source, and using more of a filler ingredient can help them cut
costs. These factors aren't relevant for a high-end restaurant where the cost
of ingredients is less significant to the bottom line.

~~~
JamesBarney
I'm pretty certain the quality control for taco bell meat sourcing is leaps
and bounds better than most boutique restaurants.

~~~
inimino
Leaps and bounds better, or just a much more complicated process? Because I'd
put a butcher that I know and trust, and my own judgement in food preparation,
ahead of any fast food supply chain process, and the same goes for any well-
regarded restaurant with a basically competent chef.

So... do they have a way crazier quality control process? Absolutely. Will the
result be better food safety than the Michelin-starred place down the street?
Not a chance.

------
telesilla
I'm preparing a large dinner for an organisation at the moment and decided
that we'd make the menu vegan/vegetarian (we use a wonderful Italian caterer,
so flavour isn't going to be missed). When I mentioned it to some omnivore
colleagues, they asked why and I shrugged and said "the Amazon is burning".
They shrugged back and said, makes sense. It's not many years since I would
have expected complaints at not catering a meat option. I feel progress is
being made.

~~~
fromthestart
>we use a wonderful Italian caterer, so flavour isn't going to be missed

A non meat dish is still going to taste like a non-meat dish. Perhaps your
colleagues were just being polite and avoiding treading into politically
charged territory after you brought up the Amazon.

Personally I'm a picky eater and vegan/vegetarian dishes simply do not compare
to meat. I'm sure others feel similarly. Though for one meal I suppose it
isn't a huge deal - but acting like it's just as good simply isn't true for
the majority of people - that's your personal taste.

~~~
telesilla
I honestly don't understand why it's such a big deal that so many people
insist meat must be part of a meal? To the degree that in Argentina they say
"si no hay carne, no hay comida" (if there is no meat, it is not a meal). It
feels like if I insisted on having bread at every table sitting. Clearly, it
can be seen as just a habit and not a requirement?

~~~
inscionent
Every experience I've had with "no meat, no meal" has also been associated
with a heavy dose but "I'm a man". YMMV

~~~
fromthestart
Perhaps because vegans and vegetarians are substantially more likely to be
thin and, well, less traditionally manly, both in appearance and in values.
It's a different set of cultural values and it isn't invalid just because it
differs from yours.

~~~
inscionent
Having a meal with no meat doesn't make one vegan/vegetarian.

> vegans and vegetarians are substantially more likely to be thin and, well,
> less traditionally manly, both in appearance and in values

I can point you to many fat vegans, and I've heard this 'need meat' BS from
guys who were literally 135 lbs, soaking wet, so.... exactly this kind of
attitude that 'meat makes you manly'.

Who said that I disagreed with those values, that is a poor assumption on your
part.

------
wil421
Why do American (and presumably westerners) vegetarians want to replace meat?
I hated vegan and vegetarian food for song long until I ate meat free Indian
food. It was always the meat replacements like veggie patties and tofurkey
type products that turned me away.

Indian food doesn’t have some weird mystery replacement I find on almost every
vegan or veggie dish. I had a conversation with and Indian colleague who lives
in the states and she agreed a lot of veggie/vegan food is just plain weird.

~~~
paxys
> Why do American (and presumably westerners) vegetarians want to replace meat

Vegetarians do not want to replace meat. (I mean, they are already
vegetarian). Anecdotally, I haven't met a single vegetarian/vegan who is
interested in Impossible or Beyond Meat substitutes. Such products are instead
very helpful for those who want to reduce read meat in their diet.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
Hi, I'm a vegetarian who is very much interested in Impossible and Beyond Meat
as meat substitutes.

Now you've met one.

------
esotericn
Here in Sweden, pretty much every fast food outlet has a vegan option.

It's honestly great, if nothing else simply because it makes it easier to be
vegan - a huge blocker is often the fact that whilst you're on a road trip or
similar your options may well be "eat chips or a cold premade sandwich"
otherwise.

Though (as I posted in the other thread) I wish it were easier to source
decent food on the go.

~~~
r00fus
A year ago my wife started eating a whole lot less meat (she has experienced a
lot less allergies due to this) and this year when we went to France, it was
clear that "veggie/vegan" options at restaurants are often missing (we ate
mostly at friend/family houses, so it was mainly an annoyance).

McD at CDG had only one non-meat item that wasn't a snack and that was their
egg wrap. Even the salads had some kind of cold cuts in there.

~~~
esotericn
Mmm. In the UK McD has like, some sort of weird vegetable pattie nonsense
going on.

Reminds me of old school dinners.

~~~
OJFord
I ordered one of those once, and got chicken.

------
impalallama
I tried a few different varieties of chick'n nuggets, 90% of the taste is just
breading and whatever the sauce so its really not a difficult as you'd imagine
to have a substitute

~~~
goda90
Nuggets, patties, and sausages are going to be the first things to reach
"perfect" when it comes to replacing meat because so much of their identity is
in the processing and other ingredients involved. It'll be the things like a
fried chicken breast sandwich that will be a lot harder to replaces because
the natural meat structure matters a lot more.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
The A&W beyond meat burger stands up as well as it does for the same reasons -
all the other sauces they add hides the weirdness, and you just taste burger.

------
raws
Those plant based protein patties often have too much salt but I just checked
and the beyond meat seems reasonable with 390mg sodium and 300mg potassium all
while using pea protein which has a pdcaas of 0.78. Quite impressive. If they
can achieve the same with the chicken patties it'll be good!

------
bad_user
I think the fake meat movement will go the way of Margarine.

Initially it's celebrated as a feat of engineering and as the healthy
alternative to meat.

After about 10 to 20 years however, we'll see cancer and heart disease rates
going up.

And then the billions of dollars spent in health care will pile up, but nobody
will readily admit it, because the fuck up will be even bigger than with
Margarine.

After all, Margarine is still on the shelves of super markets everywhere,
maybe with slightly less trans fats, but it's still there, still advertised as
the healthier alternative to butter.

Let that sink in for a moment.

~~~
bigtech
Do you have some reason to believe that meat is healthier, or is this
speculation?

~~~
bad_user
The number one reason is that we've eaten red meat for millions of years,
literally.

Given fake meat is new and I'm not seeing it in stores nearby yet, I'm going
to assume a fair comparison will take another decade, after the studies and
the meta analysis show up.

Until then the burden of proof is not on me ;-)

~~~
BubRoss
As opposed to plants?

~~~
bad_user
Thinking that eating fake meat is like eating plants is ... similar to
thinking that crack cocaine has similar effects with coca leaves.

I expect more from HN :-)

~~~
wes-k
And you’re thinking fast food meat is similar to what we ate for millions of
years ... ?

~~~
kamaal
Plant meat is not sold as an alternative to fast food meat, it's sold as an
alternative to meat.

It will exactly go the way dessert corn flake breakfast has gone over the
decades. A highly taste engineered food, loaded with chemicals and macro
nutrient stuff which will give you a lot of diseases on the longer run.

------
losvedir
It's odd. Most of my friends are aboard the "eat real food, not too much,
mostly plants" train, and generally avoid highly processed stuff in favor of
simple ingredients. But they make an exception for this weird industrial
concoction.

I, personally, don't like it because my wife has allergy issues with legumes,
and they're putting soy and pea protein in _everything_ now (e.g. was
surprised to see it in some random almond milk the other day). I know it's a
niche concern and it's on us to watch out for, but it's annoying and sort of
surprising where it all is now.

I like meat. I don't eat it in large quantities or too often, and I don't
think I'll ever go for this product. If I want meat, I'll have it like we've
evolved to have it over millenia. YMMV.

------
vzidex
As someone who recently transitioned to a >=95% vegetarian diet (I still
consume dairy and eggs), the growing number of fast food places offering
plant-based options has been a godsend, but lacking for variety - you can only
eat so many plant-based burgers. I'm excited to have a mainstream meat-free
"chicken" option, because most "chicken"s that I've tried at more niche
restaurants have been really good!

------
hugofloss
We've been eating plant-based meats at home for a while now, but I'm
contemplating going back to meats after reading various packaging. I'm seeing
a lot of food additives which I don't want my kids to take in. I'm all up for
plant-based foods, but it should be healthier than the meat alternative.

~~~
Djvacto
Have you considered making some basic meat substitutes at home? We make Seitan
a lot, and you can do a lot of cool stuff with Tofu. You can also make stuff
like falafel or bean patties/meatballs.

I'd recommend checking out Miyoko's recipe for stuff like unribs, if you want
some fancier Seitan-based recipes.

------
szatkus
Is there any plans to expand Beyond Meat, well, beyond USA?

~~~
ent
Just bought some in Finland.

~~~
szatkus
Could you tell me where exactly?

~~~
antupis
S-ryhmä had it at a normal supermarket. Also Cumulus and American Diner had it
on the menu if you want to eat it in a restaurant.

------
anonymouswacker
I was a vegetarian, vegan, then back to vegetarian, then flexitarian, and now
predominately carnivore -- over the course of 15 years.

The me from 2 years ago would be overjoyed about this "progress", from an
ethical standpoint and from believing that meat is bad for you.

Present me sees this as what it is: another unhealthy product in an already
oversaturated marketplace to dupe suckers.

~~~
phil248
I have a hard time understanding how a proponent of vegetarianism, presuming
you are one, could be so dismissive of a technological advancement that will
almost certainly lead to reduced meat consumption.

~~~
anonymouswacker
I am as health and environmentally conscious now as I ever was, only aware
that vegetarian & vegan diets in America are atrociously unhealthy. Offering
cheap, low quality, fake food is not a technological advancement.

And I am not sure meat consumption is the problem.

Factory farming and industrialized agriculture are the big issues: the greed
of the majority of the food supply causes death, destruction, and misery on
beings regardless if you are eating kale or cow.

Eat pasture-raised & local if you care about the environment and your own
health...

~~~
SeanBoocock
> only aware that vegetarian & vegan diets in America are atrociously
> unhealthy

That is in contradiction to every major health organization in the US and
abroad. Well balanced vegan and vegetarian diets are healthy and appropriate
for every stage of life.

If you care about the environment and want to make food choices that minimize
your impact, don't eat animal products, especially beef.

~~~
anonymouswacker
Yes... but large organizations (“major”) are bureaucratic, political
organizations predominately funded by, not healthy consumers or scientists,
but governments and food/pharma/tech industries. Follow the money, check the
biases, and see that the existence of the organization would be jeopardized by
biting the hand that feeds it...

------
berbec
Kentucky Fried Cauliflower

~~~
phil248
Given the amazing things I've seen done with cauliflower in recent years, I'd
try that in a heartbeat!

------
m0zg
I've tried Beyond Meat sausages a couple of weeks ago. They suck compared to
the real thing and cost twice as much. I don't know what all the hoopla is
about. They're edible, but that's about the highest compliment I can offer at
this time. Back to the drawing board, BM.

~~~
jasonvorhe
I always hated Curry Wurst but Beyond Meat sausages are awesome.

Tastes are different. Surprise surprise.

~~~
m0zg
Well yeah, if you hate real sausage, then maybe a fake one will taste better
for you. Most people do like the real thing, though.

------
dikdikvandik
Wonder how storing and transporting artificial meat compares to the real
thing.

Unrelated - anyone wanna invest in my new startup? We're gonna cross DNA from
a spider with a chicken to produce 8 legged chickens to disrupt the chicken
market. Hopefully we don't get spiders with wings.

------
chiefalchemist
Not to get off topic but the History Channel's three-part mini-series The Food
That Made America is fascinating. You get to see where we were, what changed,
as well as what hasn't changed.

I found the bit about Heinz more or less inventing the assembly line to be
fascinating.

------
hbarka
What does the Paleo community think of Beyond Meat? I think they would highly
object to the canola oil in Beyond Beef, which is not considered a good
vegetable oil.

~~~
slig
Well, it's processed food, so there's no reason to believe they'd consider it
as "Paleo" in any way or form.

------
wayanon
Fast food is as much about salt and flavourings as it is about the actual
stuff in the patty/nugget. I look forward to meat becoming an anachronism.

------
autokad
I believe thinking of it only as a 'meat substitution' might be missing a
larger trend in that a new segment is being created.

~~~
yters
I think they should not call it meat anything. They should just create a new
thing, so people can appreciate it for what it is, rather than expect meat and
get an uncanny valley effect.

~~~
dymk
Nobody is confused when they buy this product that it’s animal based meat. The
packaging is very clear about what it is.

It’s called meat because it tastes and feels like meat. It’s a perfectly
cromulent word to use because it describes what the product is.

~~~
VectorLock
When you give it a name that alludes to it being meat you're setting the
product up for failure because people will ofcourse compare it to meat and
since its not meat they will judge it as "worse."

~~~
astura
Soy milk is an entirely different product than animal milk and they don't
taste at all similar, yet I'm ok with it being called "soy milk" because "soy-
based beverage that looks similar to milk" just doesn't roll off the tongue.

~~~
VectorLock
Call it soy juice.

Soy beans don't have nipples.

------
rblion
Was just thinking about this today after trying the Impossible Whopper at BK
last week, amazing timing.

------
mactyler
I'm so excited for this!

------
magwa101
beyond hype

------
Kaveren
I can't understand how people enjoy this fake food. It just can't match the
original taste. This sort of food is extremely unhealthy, and vegans will
never be able to get the protein they need to survive. We should not encourage
the appeasing of certain niche markets, the radicals must be made to realize
that normal KFC is just a fact of life.

~~~
saagarjha
> vegans will never be able to get the protein they need to survive

There are millions of vegans around the world who can "survive" without meat:
they just get their protein from other places.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
They're dependent on technological intervention to get the required
supplements. It isn't a natural way for humans to persist.

~~~
saagarjha
They may occasionally need certain vitamins that are rare in plants, but it's
inaccurate to classify vegans as unable to satisfy their protein requirements.
(And FWIW, there are natural _vegetarian_ cultures that have survived without
supplements.)

~~~
esyir
Vegetarians are fine, but vegans are at particular risk. I assume that's why
op mentioned them to begin with.

~~~
saagarjha
They mentioned protein in particular, which isn't really that big of a deal
(as opposed to certain other nutrients like Vitamin B-12, which _can_ often be
a problem).

------
thomasfromcdnjs
I think it is a rather toxic movement that we are continuing to label things
that which they are not.

"fried plant-based ‘chicken’" it makes no sense at all

A lot of it is egged on by the vegan/vegetarians and is the definition of
false advertising.

I saw "vegan" mince in the meat section the other day. I feel sorry for the
elderly or learning impaired who might be accidentally buying soy substitutes
when their bodies are craving meat.

~~~
hervature
Don't know why you are being down voted. As a vegan, one of my biggest gripes
with the recent movement is the marketing of new products and the obsession of
replacing meat with vegetables.

To further illustrate your point, imagine trying to replicate carrots using
only veal and calling it something like "calf-rots", it absolutely makes no
sense. Your issue is primarily with the false representation, my issue is that
we're intentionally making it harder to sell vegan/vegetarian alternatives by
trying to replicate something unachievable instead of coming up with entirely
new products. For example, I highly suspect there's an entire food category
like bread that we haven't discovered yet.

~~~
tobtoh
> my issue is that we're intentionally making it harder to sell
> vegan/vegetarian alternatives by trying to replicate something unachievable
> instead of coming up with entirely new products.

Except they are achieving it. I've eaten Beyond Meat patties and they are
close enough and good enough. As a 'vegan-curious' eater, products like Beyond
Meat are a halfway point which eases the transition to a vegan diet (or at
least a diet more balanced towards non-meat products).

As more people become more comfortable moving from 7-days a week meat-eating
to something less, that is only going to help the vegan market.

Beyond Meat will do more to shift a portion of consumers across to vegan diets
(at this point in history) than making new 'pure' vegan products.

~~~
hervature
That's the general line of reasoning. I don't really buy it since a well
cooked meat burger is going to be better than the beyond meat at a much lower
cost. For perspective, the price per lb is more than a sirloin steak.

Very few people eat sirloin steak everyday and so Beyond Meat isn't going to
do much for the in terms of transitioning people who primarily eat cheaper
meats.

On the other hand, Margarine (invented in the 1800's) converted tons of people
from a purely animal product to one that doesn't need animal products without
marketing it as "plant based".

~~~
tobtoh
> Beyond Meat isn't going to do much for the in terms of transitioning people
> who primarily eat cheaper meats.

That's not really their target market at the moment though. They are aiming
their product at 'vegan-curious' people. People who are not adverse to eating
more vegetarian products, frequently want to because of environmental/animal
welfare reasons, but don't want to cos they like the taste of meat.

Also, it's still very early days though - Beyond Meat can barely keep up with
demand and haven't optimised their production at all. I see no reason their
price curve wouldn't follow the traditional curve of almost any product where
the early premium prices drop as production process matures and output ramps
up.

