
Fortnite and the Good Life - bradstreet
https://tinyletter.com/lmsacasas/letters/the-convivial-society-no-15-fortnite-and-the-good-life
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dna113
As someone who spent much their teens logged into World of Warcraft, I wish
people would be a bit more open minded about this.

Someone like Prince Harry saying that Fortnite is a waste of time, is
seriously damaging to the image someone might have of themselves playing it. I
doubt Prince Harry has got the first clue, and his opinion of it being a waste
of time is totally subjective.

It took me probably a decade until I realized that the large chunk of my teens
I spent logged in to World of Warcraft were not a blemish on my life. The game
had so much depth, it was incredibly challenging, and the social aspect was a
huge part of it. My family and our societies negative view of the game
encouraged a negative view of myself, seeing as I enjoyed it so much.

Of course you should encourage variety, but let your kid play the fuckin game!

~~~
UnpossibleJim
Am I the only one who feels like this is another echo of moral panic of the
great Dungeons & Dragons scare of the mid eighties, which then morphed into
the WoW scare of the early 2000's, which has now morphed into the Fortnite
scare of 2019? It seems like every 20ish years there is a new and terrible
game for parents, media and establishment to find and reach perfect harmony
about that coalesces into a cry of "What about the children?!" all the way t
Capital Hill and beyond. Ugh.

~~~
lghh
Compared to the D&D scare, this is less of a moral panic of fear of the
unknown and more of a panic of lost productivity. D&D's panic, or at least how
I understand it, was more like the panic around Harry Potter. Fortnite is more
similar to getting mad at your kids for watching too much television or WoW.

~~~
TheGRS
The D&D scare seems to at least have benefited from a lot of common
misunderstandings and that most people were unwilling to give it a shot. Harry
Potter exploded in popularity for the blowback to ever be taken too seriously.
Its pretty easy to open up a book and read it vs gathering some people
together to try out a somewhat complex and open-ended game.

~~~
lghh
That's fair. Additionally with D&D, it is what you make of it. The themes and
context can very with the group playing, whereas Harry Potter is exactly what
it is.

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wdewind
This article addresses moral panic and so it may seem like it is not an
extension of it, but I think it basically still is. People have tried for
decades, through scientific research, to quantify harm caused by video games
and have failed over and over again. Can people become "addicted" to them and
use them as escape mechanisms? Sure, But that happens with all kinds of
things, from chess to reading to running.

It's rare to see a real impassioned defense of gaming outside of "it's not
that bad" but I'd like to go out and say it had a hugely positive impact on my
life and I think it's really doubtful I'd be where I am today without gaming.
Beyond giving me the foundations of the technical skills I used to become an
engineer, gaming gave me tons of social skills as well. As an adolescent I was
able to play a ton of different roles in a group in a way that I wasn't able
to in real life, even in sports and mock trial and things like that, where
other elements of teamwork were present. This prepared me greatly for
understanding deep collaboration with teammates at work today. Much more than
group projects in school. Like orders of magnitude more so.

It's also important to note that despite being the safest the country has ever
been, adolescents are more restricted than ever before. It is extremely rare
for them to have places where they can be free, with their friends, and also
trying out new social roles. This is an extremely valuable process and it's
really difficult to do these days. I don't think there is anything wrong with
Fortnite, but I think if you're trying to figure out why people play it and
you reduce that down to "bright flashing colors and escapism" you're missing a
ton of the context.

And this isn't to rag on sports and say gaming is better (or theater, or
woodworking, if those are your things) it's just to say: it's 2019. This
gaming thing has been going on for quite some time. It's a real thing with
depth, mastery and real benefits that spread into the rest of your life just
like playing sports, or chess or however else you think kids should be
spending their time. Let's stop tiptoeing around gaming like it's just a vice
and start emphasizing the positive things we get out of it.

~~~
badpun
> This gaming thing has been going on for quite some time. It's a real thing
> with depth, mastery and real benefits that spread into the rest of your life
> just like playing sports, or chess or however else you think kids should be
> spending their time.

Sure, that's true, but only for some kids - while for others, games, esp. non-
skill ones (say, 100th hour of slashing monsters in Diablo) truly are a
distraction and bring nothing in, while they fill the time in child's
development that is normally devoted to activities which develop the child in
some way. The same thing can be said about other activities, like TV, but I
feel like video games may have even less to offer than those. I mean, if you
watch sitcoms on TV, you're developing your sense of humor, observe people
engaged in funny dialogue etc. I can't see a single valueable thing about that
100th hour of playing Diablo - it's a pure time waster. It's not great for an
adult, but especially bad for a child/teenager, which should be growing
instead of wasting time.

~~~
wdewind
Diablo is orders of magnitude less successful than Fortnite (or even
Overwatch, by the same company), and I'd argue the reason is exactly what you
are talking about: it's just not a very good game and the things you can get
out of it just aren't that valuable. Overwhelmingly people choose more
teamwork based, deeply social games. This is what the numbers say.

A second premise I want to address is the idea that using games (or movies or
books or whatever) as a mind numbing distraction is a waste of time or the
fault of the escape itself. Tons of people are dealing with really intense
trauma, and it's not really clear that there really is a better short term
alternative for stress management. I think if people are doing things like
slashing monsters for 100 hours in Diablo don't look at Diablo, look at what's
going on in the rest of their life. Because you can take away Diablo, but you
if you aren't fixing what makes them play a shitty game as a distraction for
100 hours you haven't really helped them at all.

Finally: tons of people run pathologically. I mean basically anyone who is
serious about the sport does more damage to themselves than is necessary, and
runs far more than the optimal amount. I don't think running is exactly the
same as gaming, but it's worth examining why we as a culture have no problem
discussing Larry's second hip replacement from running 10 miles a day but
tremble when discussing Larry's son's 10th hour this week playing Fortnite.

~~~
MRD85
I lost around 2.5 years to World of Warcraft, I'm talking 12-14 hours per day
over that period. This is over a decade ago and my mum still talks about the
wasted time and she hates the name of that game. She doesn't realise that
without that escape I wasn't far off suicide. That addiction gave me enough
time to sort out my life and figure things out. I'm in my 30's now and I truly
love my life and I have for a number of years.

~~~
wdewind
Thanks for sharing and glad to hear you're doing better now.

> She doesn't realise that without that escape I wasn't far off suicide. That
> addiction gave me enough time to sort out my life and figure things out.

This is huge! I always think about stuff like this when people dismiss
"entertainment."

~~~
MRD85
No worries, I feel it's important to talk about mental health issues. You
never know what others are dealing with and sharing might make them see that
things can get better.

------
dorkwood
I went through something similar to the author once, where I looked back on
all the time I spent playing games in my youth and thought “wow, what a
waste!”

What I came to realise, however, (after reading about Self Determination
Theory) was that I likely spent so much of my time playing games because it
was the only way for me to experience autonomy and competency as a young
adult. I had no other way of meeting those needs.

Games taught me that if I practice at something, I can get better. They gave
me a world I could exercise control over when everything else in my life was
determined by school and my parents.

If you know someone who you think plays too many games, look to see if they
have any other ways of meeting those basic human needs for autonomy,
competence, and social interaction. If their lives are deficient in one or all
of those areas, games can be a lifesaver.

~~~
stiglitz
A lifesaver or a crutch.

~~~
dorkwood
Can't it be both?

~~~
linkev117
I would compare it to benzos. They can tide you over for a short while, but
long term it leads to dependency. And there are much more productive
alternatives out there (Like exercise, for both cases..).

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neap24
This essay spends a bit of time trying to figure out whether we should discuss
how "harmful" video games are vs. "how virtuous" they make us. The
"opportunity cost" approach my parents had seems much more effective to
me--"alright, you need to turn that off now. There are so many other
interesting things you could be doing right now."

~~~
ALittleLight
I think people are heavily biased towards what looks interesting to an outside
observer. A child sat at a desk all day starting at a glowing screen looks
like some kind of soulless zombie.

"Screens bad! Go outside and play!"

The child might be doing something mindless, or might be involved in something
fascinating - creating or participating in elaborate and vibrant virtual
worlds.

I think parents should seek a healthy balance for their children. But that
means understanding what's happening and what it means and not trying to
promote activities because of how they look on the outside. A child riding his
bike around the neighborhood probably looks better to modern sensibilities
than one staring at a screen, but I don't know why bike riding should be
considered superior to building a world in Minecraft as an example.

~~~
gerbilly
> I don't know why bike riding should be considered superior to building a
> world in Minecraft as an example.

Nothing against fortnite, but we are animals with bodies, not brains in a jar.

This is why I'd say that riding a bike around¹ _is_ more valuable than playing
fortnite.

1: And bike riding can be a group thing as well. When I was a kid,we dirt
jumped and mountain biked on the local trails a lot, which was immensely fun.

~~~
ikeyany
> Nothing against fortnite, but we are animals with bodies, not brains in a
> jar.

If you truly believe that, then quit your office job and take a more physical,
_human_ occupation.

~~~
gerbilly
I don't have a physical occupation now,but every other waking minute I do
physical things as much as I can.

I used to work farm labour when I was younger, never slept so well in my life.

------
skilled
In my experience, there are either two parts of the brain or two personalities
within you that constantly feed on one another.

For example, when you start playing World of Warcraft again, and a week later
it feels like you are a crack addict who needs 10+ hours every day. But the
game feels great. It feels great until you hit a wall either in-game or in
real life.

And the younger you are, the more difficult it is to hit either of those
walls. Last year I hit a bit of a slump in my life and had a few 'dark'
months, so I downloaded WoW right around the time of when the new expansion
was coming out.

Not only did I realize that Blizzard has surgically removed the "soul" of the
game (for whatever reason), I also realized that my conscience can't really
keep up with the game for that long.

------
gfodor
As we've worked on Hubs at Mozilla it's beginning to feel like we're one of
what will become several key mechanisms for introducing avatar embodiment into
our lives. There are a number of trends (VR, gaming, etc) pointing in this
direction so it seems like wrangling with the moral questions around remote
embodiment will become more and more prevalent.

~~~
phinnaeus
Does anyone remember ViOS?

------
manfredo
Really, games are like any other piece of media. Engage with them passively,
and uncritically and one won't get much value out of it. Engage with them
actively and they can have a positive impact.

My parents didn't really care _what_ media I consumed but cared more about
_how_ I consumed it. Plenty of games have the potential to explore and foster
interesting experiences. I've learned a lot through games. In fact I'd say
that two of the most important things I've learned I've learned through games:
the importance of a strong work ethic, and discovering my passing for computer
technology (which later led to a career in software development). Games _can_
be mindless and intellectually numb. But the same could be said of any other
piece of media.

Granted I am of the opinion that battle Royale games provide less than
strategy games, and most RPGs but I am not nearly experienced enough in the BR
genre to have much conviction in this opinion.

~~~
jdmichal
I think most games have orthogonal twitch and strategy components. All games
of course have some strategy -- even decided games like Checkers have the
optimal strategy, along side unoptimal ones.

There are "action" games (high twitch) that have very high strategic content.
The kicker is that sometimes twitch can serve as a ceiling for strategy. That
is, below a certain twitch level, some strategies are not viable or available.
Games with very low twitch minimize this, like turn-based RPGs and strategy
games. But even StarCraft requires high twitch (aka unit micro) to execute
some strategies!

~~~
manfredo
Even ostensibly twitch based games have a lot of strategy. 2D fighters have
tons of strategy, so do games like * Souls. Stealth games also require good
strategy and spacial reasoning coupled with strong execution.

------
yters
There seems to be at least some objective criteria for good and bad uses of
time. In general, almost everyone has the same set of needs in order to
flourish, and the same requirements to meet those needs. So, uses of time that
better fit the general requirements for flourishing are objectively better.
For example, everyone needs to be healthy, and subsisting on a diet consisting
entirely of candy is unlikely to be healthy for the general population
(although I did hear about a guy living only on Mars bars).

With video games, while we minimize the importance of geography due to
virtualization, geographically located communities seems to be the most
beneficial for our social wellbeing. From a purely evolutionary viewpoint, we
cannot reproduce virtually (yet!). Sinking all of one's time into online games
and relationships will diminish our ability to develop geographical
communities.

On the other hand, it's wrong to write off video games altogether. As an
artistic medium, they are pretty unique and their true potential has yet to be
realized. I think the indie scene is great in this regard. And exposure to
great art is essential for human flourishing.

~~~
icebraining
> From a purely evolutionary viewpoint, we cannot reproduce virtually (yet!)

Sperm donation and IVF is quite virtual already.

------
narrator
The worst part about playing video games is you get a brain full of lots of
totally useless video game trivia. When I realized that programming was almost
as fun as playing video games I just did that instead. Even the most aimless
screwing around programming will have a better long term impact on one's life
than videogaming IMHO.

------
davidwitt415
Video games are fine, but as I tell my sons, there's a huge difference between
learning how to play guitar and learning how to play Guitar Hero. Virtual
worlds are fine to engage with, but those accomplishments are virtual and
ephemeral, while real world skills remain with you.

~~~
jmckib
I'm sure you're well-intentioned and want what's best for your kids, but I'm
going to push back a bit. My ability to play video games in general has
improved over the years, and for me it's a source of pleasure. It's not
ephemeral because many of the games I play now have the same mechanics as the
ones I played when I was a kid.

People like listening to guitar, but there are also a lot of people who love
watching others play videogames on sites like Twitch. Of course both playing
videogames and playing guitar professionally aren't a realistic goal for most
people.

~~~
linkev117
I don't think the amount of utility for guitar is the same as for video games.

I understand very few people get to be professional guitarists or gamers.
However, after that there are rapidly decreasing returns for video games.
Guitar can be a source of pleasure for people you meet. It's a far more
interesting skill than playing video games decently well. Guitar challenges
the brain more; its learning curve extends farther than any video game. Guitar
opens up a world of creativity and improvisation, name me a video game that
can provide something at that scale (I'm an avid gamer so I'm sure there are
none). Plus, it can get you laid.

I just don't buy that playing video games can provide much benefit. It seems
like a meager reason to justify a questionable habit.

~~~
jmckib
Personally I would much rather watch someone play videogames than listen to
someone play guitar, but that might be an unpopular opinion and I agree with
you that actually writing music is more artistically creative than what you
can do with the vast majority of videogames.

We can probably agree the type of game matter. To me the skill that people
display when expertly playing a real-time strategy game is really interesting
and takes a certain kind of tactical/strategic genius to do well. It is
basically speed chess with a lot more rules and space for creativity.

You've definitely got a point that guitar probably is a better way to impress
most of the ladies.

I just want to make the additional point that video games are how a lot of us
began our interest in computers that later turned into a fulfilling career.
Many people first experienced a command line while installing DOS games. The
modern equivalent is probably modding PC games, which can take a lot of
technical literacy depending on the game.

------
evrydayhustling
Love this article but take issue with this statement: "The experience of place
is an irreducibly embodied experience.". The author moderates it by pointing
out that there is a physical experience of gaming, but I think this misses the
point that we don't yet know the limits of virtual experiences.

There is a similar attitude when folks insist that robotic embodiment is
required for AI, or that AI structures must mimic the human brain to achieve
"real" intelligence. I think these attitudes, by trying to draw a bright line,
lead people to consistently underestimate how powerful new media can be.

------
pierotofy
Maybe we should just tell kids to watch TV. Wait...

~~~
chillwaves
How is TV a defense of videogames?

------
teekert
"I can't quite claim that playing hours of Mortal Kombat, most of those
socializing with friends, was good."

I played a lot of Street Figher on the SNES, always loved it, always played or
some time with friend and then do something else. I don't think it was bad?

------
jdreyfuss
Interesting article. I like the re-framing of questioning gaming (and other
uses of technology) from the basis of what it adds rather than what it
subtracts.

I believe there is value in gaming. There's value in storytelling, in
mastering small skills, and in the positive feedback of progression. There's
value in shared experiences and in the communities that spring up within and
around games.

My own struggle is with the diminishing returns. The "danger" of games to me,
such as they are, is not in the value-per-unit-of-time ratio, but rather in
the total amount of time that they can suck up. It's not hard at all to spend
hundreds of hours in games. For me, if I take any given hour of gaming and
compare it to an hour of something else I could have been doing, I'm quite
happy to have spent it gaming. But when I take the sum of that time over a
year, or a lifetime, and compare it to other pursuits, that's when I start to
question it in my own life.

tl;dr: the "danger" of gaming to me is not in the content of games, or in
gaming not having anything to add to someone's life, but rather in the fact
that, for many people, gaming seems uniquely able to suck up so much time --
much more so than what it ultimately adds.

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mhh__
The point about Fortnite basically being a real place is very astute.

------
Animats
This is just some guy commenting on a New York Times article. The actual
article is better.[1]

[1]
[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/05/opinion/sunday/fortnite-s...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/05/opinion/sunday/fortnite-
social-play-children.html)

------
skybrian
There may be opportunity cost, but you can't beat something with nothing.
Whatever activity you think is a "waste of time" needs to be compared with
something specific that's allegedly better.

What, specifically, should the kids playing too much Fortnite be doing more
of? Encourage them to do that.

------
matt_lo
I play Fortnite almost every day for varying reasons:

\- I have adult customers who like playing/talking with someone who makes what
they buy.

\- I have former colleagues I talk to and catch up with.

\- I have gaming friends who want someone whose competitive to play with.

\- I use it to decompress for the day... or add a ton of stress, depending on
whether I can "edit my builds" fast enough for the dub.

tl;dr: From my perspective, Fortnite is a social network.

~~~
VectorLock
I'm curious what kind of business do you do where Fortnite is a significant
way to interact with your customers?

~~~
matt_lo
I wouldn't say it's significant. It's a handful of customers who play
occasionally. No where near as much as I do.

I run a support bot business.

------
victorbstan
Weird flex, but ok.

