
An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami - muddyrivers
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-gastronomy/an-msg-convert-visits-the-high-church-of-umami
======
thedz
I've talked to many otherwise perfectly rational folks who get worked up about
avoiding MSG when it comes to Asian food — but still go out and buy liquid
aminos or eat foods that are caked in it.

~~~
bvinc
I just checked the ingredients on my liquid aminos and it doesn't say msg.
Their website says they don't add it, but there may be "very small amounts"
that naturally occur from the soybeans. Please explain.

P.S. I have no reaction to MSG I just don't understand why you would think
someone is being irrational.

~~~
cjlars
Monosodium Glutamate (MSG) is an amino acid bound to a sodium molecule to make
it into a shelf stable powder. Much like table salt (NaCl) is a sodium
molecule bound to a chloride molecule to achieve the same. When they contact
the water in food they both dissolve into the component molecules.

So really what you're talking about is glutamate which is a very widely
occuring amino acid. It's "non-essential" which means that your body produces
it. Almost all fermented foods contain it (including liquid aminos). Cheeses,
meats, vegetables, etc contain it. It's very likely that you eat several times
as much naturally occurring glutamate in your diet as you would if you used
MSG in your cooking.

Basically if someone says they are allergic to MSG, but not allergic to all of
the other foods that contain glutamate, is like someone saying they're
allergic to table salt, but not allergic to all of the other foods that
contain sodium, which is not medically plausible.

The flip side is that very high blood concentration of sodium can cause
medical issues, and people worried about glutamate argue that a similar effect
is going on when you eat MSG, but research so far indicates that at normal
dietary levels, you're fine to sprinkle a little of either molecule on your
food.

~~~
galdosdi
Your chemistry is scarily bad, are you trolling? When elements combine into
molecules the result often behaves very differently from the components.

> Basically if someone says they are allergic to MSG, but not allergic to all
> of the other foods that contain glutamate, is like someone saying they're
> allergic to table salt, but not allergic to all of the other foods that
> contain sodium, which is not medically plausible.

OK, so how come I can eat table salt but chlorine alone will kill me?

Go back and complete that chem 100 course

~~~
kazinator
Indeed consuming protein molecules which contain glutamate is different from
consuming free glutamate in the form of MSG.

We can draw a ready analogy to saccharides. It is like denying the effects of
sugar because indigestible complex carbohydrates are made of sugar and do not
produce those effects. "A blood sugar spike doesn't exist because cellulose is
made of sugars, and I've eaten a large bowl of moistened sawdust without
experiencing such a spike. It's probably an imagined effect or maybe caused by
something else, such as a response to anti-caking agents in the sugar."

Why is MSG used in the first place on foods which already contain glutamate?
For instance, why is it used in Vietnamese lemon grass chicken recipes, given
that chicken protein has tons of glutamate? It's because the glutamate that is
locked up in protein doesn't produce the taste effect of MSG.

So why don't these naysayers deny the existence of the taste effect of MSG
also?

As in: "Gee, I don't believe that MSG can possibly be a flavor enhancer,
because boiled chicken breast contains copious glutamate and yet tastes bland.
People who say that flavor is enhanced by MSG are just imagining it due to
confirmation bias fueled by mass hysteria."

------
akaryocyte
The article rather understates the use of glutamate in the body.

> _it is an essential building block of protein found in muscle tissue, the
> brain, and other organs._

It's not only found in _every_ organ, it's present in 99.6% of all human
proteins, out of 20328 only 72 do not use glutamate, and of those 29 are
keratin proteins.

~~~
ajross
Interestingly, though (just to digress -- your point is quite valid) it's not
an essential amino acid for humans. Obviously it's required to make proteins,
but if we don't get enough in our diet our bodies will synthesize it.

It's just interesting that the molecule we evolved to recognize as a
"protein!" marker in our food turns out not to be one of the protein
submolecules we actually need to surive.

~~~
tschwimmer
I agree with you, but it makes sense that we may have evolved to be able to
synthesize it. Since it's such a crucial amino acid, it would be an
advantageous adaptation to do so.

------
z2
MSG is fine, but I stubbornly cling to the notion that high quality
ingredients should yield umami taste without adding MSG. To me it's similar to
using ripe red bell peppers that are sweet, without needing to "fake" it with
cane sugar. It's easy to turn dishes into caricatures by taking basic tastes
to extremes. I'm no miso soup expert, but shouldn't it naturally have MSG from
the seaweed, fermented miso paste, tuna, and tofu?

Still, perhaps it's a bit silly because I don't blink when adding salt.

~~~
tptacek
From a culinary perspective, the flip side of that --- referenced in the
article --- is that sometimes you want the umami taste sensation without
clouding the flavor of the product you're "seasoning". You can bump umami with
soy sauce, parm, or tomato paste, but not without adding soy, parm, or tomato
flavor. MSG lets you turn that knob while mostly keeping the pure flavor of
the rest of the dish intact.

~~~
caxhauquen
I identify with both of these issues, and have mixed feelings about MSG.

I'm a sort of accidental vegetarian, in that I never really decided to become
one; the rest of my family is vegetarian and I stopped eating meat because it
was inconvenient, and then gradually I lost interest in it.

I realized at some point MSG is really useful for adding umami flavor to
things without adding other flavors, like seaweed or tomato or mushroom. It is
wonderful for certain things, and makes some vegetarian dishes basically
indistinguishable from those with meat. I think it's a little odd that people
will go out of their way to add unusual strong-flavored ingredients for the
umami, when you could just add MSG.

At the same time, MSG on its own to me has a really cheap umami quality. It
reminds me of really cheap frozen dinners and bad food from elementary school.
For awhile I couldn't get over that, and then eventually realized that when
it's used in complement with the right things in the right amounts, it works
great--you just need to figure out the right settings.

So sometimes those natural sources of umami just seem contorted and more
trouble than they're worth. Other times, they seem to supply umami in a way
that doesn't seem cheap or one-dimensional.

I suspect that there's some other component of many "umami" flavors we haven't
discovered yet, or other tastes that technically aren't umami but would be
identified as such currently. It's difficult for me to believe that MSG is
really capturing most of what I like about savory dishes; I feel like
something else is missing. I'm waiting for other amino acid salt receptors to
be identified; I wouldn't be surprised if they're somehow linked in their
activity to glutamate receptors or something of that sort.

~~~
GregoryPerry
A really poignant writing, thanks.

------
throwaway84742
If you can tolerate chicken stock, you can tolerate MSG. It’s as simple as
that.

~~~
bvinc
I just checked the ingredients on my organic Costco chicken stock. The
ingredients do not contain MSG. I found a website that asked Costco about
their "natural flavors" and got a response that it does not contain soy, or
dairy, and no MSG is added.

Is it really that simple? Please explain.

~~~
throwaway84742
Chicken stock contains natural glutamate because chicken itself contains it.
It’s what gives chicken stock its savory flavor. Moreover, your body makes its
own glutamate, too. So yes, it’s that simple. That’s why they say “no MSG is
_added_”. This is similar to how a lot of meat products say “no nitrites are
added”, yet use celery juice which is naturally rich in nitrites to prevent
meat from turning brown.

------
philipkglass
The article mentioned that glutamate is currently produced by fermentation
with molasses as the main feedstock. I found a fascinating open access article
about the history of glutamate production here:

[https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/90/3/728S/4597145](https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/90/3/728S/4597145)

The author is an employee of Ajinomoto Co, Inc., the same company that the
author of the New Yorker article visited.

Abstract:

 _In 1907 Kikunae Ikeda, a professor at the Tokyo Imperial University, began
his research to identify the umami component in kelp. Within a year, he had
succeeded in isolating, purifying, and identifying the principal component of
umami and quickly obtained a production patent. In 1909 Saburosuke Suzuki, an
entrepreneur, and Ikeda began the industrial production of monosodium
L-glutamate (MSG). The first industrial production process was an extraction
method in which vegetable proteins were treated with hydrochloric acid to
disrupt peptide bonds. L-Glutamic acid hydrochloride was then isolated from
this material and purified as MSG. Initial production of MSG was limited
because of the technical drawbacks of this method. Better methods did not
emerge until the 1950s. One of these was direct chemical synthesis, which was
used from 1962 to 1973. In this procedure, acrylonitrile was the starting
material, and optical resolution of DL-glutamic acid was achieved by
preferential crystallization. In 1956 a direct fermentation method to produce
glutamate was introduced. The advantages of the fermentation method (eg,
reduction of production costs and environmental load) were large enough to
cause all glutamate manufacturers to shift to fermentation. Today, total world
production of MSG by fermentation is estimated to be 2 million tons /y (2
billion kg/y)._

------
kazinator
Melissa O'Brien at UBC has directly observed the effects of MSG on the blood
flow in the dura in rat brains:

[https://open.library.ubc.ca/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/24/...](https://open.library.ubc.ca/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/24/items/1.0224000)
[2016]

She basically takes it for granted that MSG causes headaches and is looking at
the mechanisms.

 _A recent study found that a single oral dose of 150mg /kg taken
consecutively for five days resulted in headache and muscle tenderness when
given to healthy young men (Shimada et al. 2013). Older work concluded that
MSG consumption did not induce symptoms of pain or sensitivity but many of
these studies have been scrutinized for their poor methodology (Tarasoff and
Kelly 1993). Without definitive proof that MSG is harmful, it has been cleared
in the United States and Canada as safe for human consumption and can be added
to foods without regulation from Health Canada._

Lots more in this paper; very good work.

------
psychometry
Does anyone know if the brand mentioned (Ajinomoto) is any better than Accent?
I mean, MSG is MSG, right?

~~~
philipkglass
Yes, MSG is MSG. Accent apparently has at least two products.

Pure MSG:

[https://www.amazon.com/Accent-Flavor-Enhancer-lb-
canister/dp...](https://www.amazon.com/Accent-Flavor-Enhancer-lb-
canister/dp/B0017TN3UC)

And a seasoning mixture that contains MSG, salt, and a mixture of spices:

[https://www.amazon.com/Sa-son-Accent-Seasoning-Original-
Pack...](https://www.amazon.com/Sa-son-Accent-Seasoning-Original-
Packets/dp/B0017OGVP6)

I have only ever seen the first kind of Accent before (crystals of pure MSG)
so I too was initially confused about what the author meant when writing

 _I picked up a dusty bottle of Ac’cent-brand MSG at my corner bodega. I
brought it home, made dinner, and stepped into the light. After a few months
of passionate use, I levelled up from Ac’cent, which includes other flavorings
besides MSG, to the more pure and exquisite Ajinomoto..._

------
dofly
Here's a thought. People who have persistent "diet related" health problems
who also tried every single known dietary avoidance strategy (often with
little success) could also get tested for H.pylori.

------
StringyBob
I assume lots of chefs (in high end restaurants) use MSG, but rightly think it
could scare off some of their clientele.

~~~
clarkenheim
The words "umami flavours" is a lot more palatable than MSG.

~~~
titanomachy
But it could refer to ingredients other than pure MSG.

~~~
dibujante
Ingredients which in turn would contain glutamates, and likely monosodium
glutamate.

------
skadamou
TIL glutamate is one of four amino acids that also functions as a
neurotransmitter. Obviously, this does not refute any of the science
disproving "MSG sensitivity" but I still find it interesting. Further, I
wonder if there are people out there that claim sensitivity to aspartate or
serine given that they too are both neurotransmitters and amino acids.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitter)

~~~
tptacek
From what I've read, no level of glutamate intake in humans allows it to cross
the blood-brain barrier, or, for that matter, even substantially increase the
serum glutamate level.

------
alexnewman
I love how people claim that MSG headaches are racism and not that MSG vastly
differs from cheap salt to liquid aminos.

~~~
bpicolo
Here's a study for contextualizing:

[https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(00)44233-8/ful...](https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749\(00\)44233-8/fulltext)

I've yet to see one that showed actual adverse effects of eating MSG via food,
regardless of claimed sensitivities. I think this is the heart of the "racist"
claim - there's no study that supports the existence of that sort of MSG
sensitivity out there yet (that I've heard about)

~~~
kazinator
The study isn't denying that there are effects.

> _neither persistent nor serious effects from MSG ingestion_

Effects don't have to be serious or persistent for them to be a nuisance
enough to avoid!

I don't need six hours of a mild headache/nausea, thanks.

~~~
bpicolo
This context was important on the study:

> large doses of MSG given without food

~~~
kazinator
That could describe the situation when you're drinking MSG-laced soup. The
liquid will race ahead of the solids ingredients like noodles and get absorbed
first.

If MSG is sprinked onto something dry, like some types of snack food, which is
then washed down with a drink, it could also be absorbed fast.

~~~
tptacek
This is first-principles message board hypothesizing. In fact, there's
enormous incentive in academic science to actually demonstrate a reliable
adverse MSG effect, and there has been for _decades_. Why has no reputable
study done so? Is it really your argument that no food scientist has ever
thought of the study design questions you're alluding to here?

------
kazinator
> _They are willing to bring MSG into their homes as a component in other
> foods—more than happy to accept it as a flavoring powerhouse in Doritos,
> instant ramen, canned soup, and bouillon cubes, or at least happy to accept
> its euphemisms, like “hydrolized soy protein” and “autolyzed yeast.”_

Those are strawman avoiders of MSG, not everyone. I avoid stuff which lists
MSG under these names. As well as disodium inosinate or disodium guanylate.

I can tolerate some MSG, but if there is too much, I get headache/nausea. That
is, it's not like I can't have a few chips at a party.

~~~
tptacek
People say things like this about gluten sensitivity, too, often with very
detailed self-reporting. But in a controlled setting, outside of celiac,
there's not a lot of evidence for NCGS, and it's _very_ likely that a
significant fraction of people who report NCGS are not in fact gluten-
sensitive. As with MSG, people also have weird ideas about their gluten
intake, and as with MSG there's widespread and easily illustrated sensitivity
to other aspects of gluten-rich food (for instance, for a lot of people, rapid
intake of lots of refined carbs will have immediate insulin effects).

The difference, of course, is that there is an underlying condition that makes
gluten problematic for a small number of people --- celiac disease. There is
no known "celiac of MSG", despite decades of searching for it.

Anything is possible, but the evidence overwhelmingly suggest that if you're
having a reliable reaction to foods with MSG in them, it's something else in
those foods you're sensitive to --- most likely salt! --- not MSG.

~~~
1053r
Just to expand on one of the parent's points, Celiac is pretty rare, and
affects under 1% of the population. However, Fructose Malabsorption is much
less rare, and affects closer to 5% in the US. In spite of the name, Fructose
Malabsorption has little to do with dietary fructose, and instead has to do
with a class of molecules called fructooligosaccharides (FOS).

Overconsumption of FOS causes bloating, nausea, "brain fog," lower GI upset,
and a whole raft of other symptoms that sound an awful lot like what many
self-diagnosed NCGS folks report. For folks with Fructose Malabsorption, the
threshold consumption of FOS that causes symptoms is less than 10% the level
that causes symptoms in the general population.

The confounding thing is that wheat is rich is FOS. So folks who believe they
have NCGS stop eating wheat and sometimes feel better. They probably have
Fructose Malabsorption, or are suffering from insulin spiking effects from
refined carbs, or some other effect. But they heard gluten was bad for you,
and when they ate the package of bread that said "gluten free," and stopped
eating the normal wheat bread, they started feeling better.

"Middlebrow dismissals" of their condition don't really help them either.
True, gluten is almost certainly not their problem. But gluten free food, as a
side effect of lacking wheat, often helps them feel better! What are the
chances that something similar is happening with MSG? Perhaps added MSG is
often found along side other ingredients/contaminants that cause headaches and
other reported "MSG symptoms"?

~~~
kazinator
> _Perhaps added MSG is often found along side other ingredients /contaminants
> that cause headaches and other reported "MSG symptoms"?_

MSG is a clear common denominator. Many people report that if they avoid
anything with MSG (under any of its names), they avoid the associated
problems. That doesn't mean it's MSG.

Why do studies focus on the MSG? Because they are sparked by the motivation to
clear MSG's name (which could actually be right). They don't care about
finding the _root cause_ of these symptoms.

The proper scientific approach is to ignore the MSG hypothesis of the self-
reported sufferers and get to the root cause, not simply to test that
hypothesis and be done.

> _" Middlebrow dismissals" of their condition don't really help them either._

Exactly; same in this MSG situation.

~~~
tptacek
Here we find ourselves hypothetically dismissing all the studies ever done on
MSG based on broad classes of study design concerns.

