
Are Those Spidery Black Things On Mars Dangerous? - kaffeinecoma
http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2012/10/02/162147810/are-those-spidery-black-things-on-mars-dangerous-yup
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martian
This is awesome! I love that Mars continues to baffle, astound, and fascinate
us. Sometimes our 21st century hubris makes us think we are reaching some kind
of peak knowledge, but moments like this prove that we yet know so little.

In particular, the geology of Mars in an incredibly fascinating topic. If
you're looking for a good primer on the subject, I highly recommend _Mapping
Mars_ by Oliver Morton.

 _Mapping Mars_ contains a history of the science, highlighting the major
contributors to the field and augmented with interviews from such notable
science fiction authors as Kim Stanley Robinson. A good discussion is, for
example, how much water exists on the planet. Consensus is now that there is
water somewhere, but exactly how much water, where it sits, how it flows:
great questions that are attacked with lucid explanations.

Hats off to NASA and human curiosity for this grand adventure.

~~~
slashclee
In the Mars trilogy (Red Mars/Green Mars/Blue Mars) by Kim Stanley Robinson,
the term "areology" was coined for describing geology-on-Mars. I always
thought that was a great word.

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mhp
Pardon my idiotic question, but why don't they just drive over there and check
them out? Or are they just in a totally different place than the rover (like
asking why someone in North America can't just hop over and check out Uluru)?

~~~
InclinedPlane
Mars is an entire world, it's a big place, we only have two rovers on the
planet and they can travel at perhaps 10 km per _year_.

~~~
malandrew
Why are there so slow? Is this an engineering decision or a limitation of the
environment they need to operate in?

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InclinedPlane
It's a combination of a scientific and engineering limitation. The Curiosity
rover's power source generates an average of about 1/6th of a horsepower of
electrical power. In practice this is used to trickle charge the batteries of
the rover over night and provide slightly higher total power during the day
for driving, even so we're talking about a fraction of a horse power to drive
a nearly one tonne vehicle the size of an SUV. The Opportunity rover is
smaller and lighter (180 kg) but also solar powered and so has much less total
energy to work with per day.

If the goal were merely speed we could build faster rovers but to do so would
mean removing a lot of scientific instruments so we'd be able to get to
different locations but then we'd only be able to do a tiny amount of science
compared to what we can do with Curiosity or Opportunity.

~~~
sovande
Why can't they just use nuclear power? Didn't the viking probes from the 70's
use that? I might be wrong, but I thought that curiosity actually did use
nuclear.

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InclinedPlane
Curiosity does use a nuclear power source (an RTG) but it only provides a
little over 100 Watts of power. As I said, the primary use of the RTG is not
to drive the rover but to power the batteries over night to drive the rover
during the day. Even so, this still amounts to less than one horsepower
available to drive a nearly one tonne vehicle.

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ChuckMcM
This stuff blows me away. I think, holy crap this planet has all sorts of real
exo-planet kinds of weirdness. I love the idea of reverse icicles although for
the life of me I can't imagine what would hold them up once the CO2 gas has
vaporized out.

One part of me wants to build another Curiosity style rover and catch the next
Earth/Mars orbital cycle and put it down near stuff like this.

I can believe folks would find this as inspiring as looking back at the planet
from the Moon.

~~~
brador
Is there any chance they could be plants? relying on underground water
reserves and appearing every spring to throw around some pollen before
slinking back into the cool darkness.

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ChuckMcM
I'm not a xenobiologist so I couldn't quantify the relative chance of them
being 'plants'. But this is the kind of stuff we can speculate on.

First, we'll need to be a bit loose with our definitions since 'plant' means a
very specific kind of thing.

So if we define a 'plant' as a chemical process which creates structure in the
presence of certain chemicals such that a transformative chemical reaction is
enabled whereby energy in the form of sunlight or heat is used to build
additional structure. Then we can see if there is a chemical mix that would
have this characteristic output.

It is critical to note though that this would also classify a stalactite as a
'plant' which converts calcium carbonate into 'structure' (in this case rock)
by exploiting a transfer agent (water).

Interesting questions would be "Why vanish in the winter?" what ever
hypothesis we come up with has to include the observed effect and behaviors.
This is my biggest issue with my 'frozen geyser' hypothesis, it seems like
they would continue to exist during winter.

Finding better imagery from HiRise would be good too, in particular it would
be useful to know if these were vertical structures or not. that would show up
as shadows.

Lots of fun to think about.

~~~
brador
Why not literally a plant? Like leafy, relies on water, comes from a small
seed, reproduces via pollen/wind, based on a cell structure.

We have plants in the desert here on Earth that blossom once every X years or
decades. Is there a reason such a "plant" could not have survived the harsh
later years of mars post surface water?

Bonus idea: if these are plants relying on ground water, their location would
give away the position of said ground water. They could be mapped and their
spacial density used to find source pools for humans to tap.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Because plants, of the leafy green variety, have a complex evolutionary
history with lots of side trips (like lichen and mold and algae). Further
earth based plants are based on the same basic DNA structure as earth based
animals.

So while it is not "impossible" that an equivalent to plants evolved into
exactly one species or micro-eco-system which exists in this one place on
Mars, the chance that this occurred and didn't cause the whole planet to have
evidence of their existence is really really small.

But don't let that discourage you from trying various plant hypotheses. The
way to pursue that is to then try to figure out what things would be true if
they were plants, and see if any of the data we have from Mars would allow you
to get closer to proving or disproving your hypothesis. The last time I
checked you could ask for and get the a copy of the raw data from JPL if you
asked for it (well not some 'give me all your data' kind of ask, but "I'd like
to get HiRise imagery from this part of the planet ...")

~~~
hydian
They could have come down from an external source.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Yes, they could. But can you include some reasoning with _how_ they would have
done that? Some sound more likely than others.

The panspermia theory [1] is based on the idea that perhaps some forms of life
could exist in space as it transits from place to place. One of the things
that has always bothered me about that hypothesis is the orbital mechanics.
Which is to say if you posit a supernova or other energetic event that
accelerated a planet (or fragments of that planet) into space, and somehow the
life on those fragments survived both the radiation and the effects of vacuum
on volatiles, and then it arrived in our solar system, what would the relative
velocities be of that material with respect to our planets? And then when that
material impacted a local rocky planet how much energy would be released and
how would it survive that?

The 'primordial soup' theories have thus always held more interest for me as
being more probable. With papers like this one:
[http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/10/simple-reaction-
makes...](http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/10/simple-reaction-makes-the-
building-blocks-of-a-nucleic-acid/) lending a bit of narrative around how it
might have occurred. But the primordial soup theories also need evolution to
get from a happenstance chemical mixture into something like multi-cellular
organisms.

So follow your chain of reasoning and see what questions it leads you to:

"down from an external source" ...

From where?

How did the plant get there to come down?

What is needed to survive a fall from space? At what velocities?

Etc.

[1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia>

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debacle
A good image of the formations is on Wikipedia:

[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/PIA11858_...](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/PIA11858_Starburst_Spider.jpg)

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DougWebb
That looks _so much_ like mold.

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jlgreco
It really does. However, one should keep in mind that humans have overzealous
pattern-matching engines. We are really good at erroneously seeing things that
we recognize.

~~~
betterth
And when it comes to Martian geography, we are hopelessly bad at judging
scale. It's very easy to be several orders of magnitude off without a guide or
legend.

~~~
RickHull
_Google Mars_ , the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now.

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creamyhorror
"Surely I'm not the only one thinking spiceblows..."

\-- a commenter on that page, Melissa Swanson

~~~
thebigshane
context: <http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Spice_blow>

~~~
raverbashing
I'm waiting for the sandworms

~~~
jrajav
So THAT'S where all the water on Mars went...

~~~
captaintacos
The spice must flow

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tocomment
> they might be colonies of photosynthetic Martian microorganisms, warmed from
> the sun, now sunbathing in plain view.

That's incredible. Is that really possible? I wonder why the rover doesn't
check them out? It seems weird it's digging through soil looking for chemicals
possibly related to life when there's potential life out in plain view.

NASA has some very strange priorities.

~~~
kaizendc
When planning a landing site for each rover mission, NASA considers a variety
of factors and makes a best-guess as to the fruitfulness of each site from a
scientific perspective.

Clearly a team of brilliant scientists has not failed to consider the
possibility of exploring these strange spidery features, but they have decided
against it for the time being.

It doesn't really make sense to assess their "strange priorities" as an
outsider looking in with very limited knowledge as to how their decision
making process actually works.

~~~
gwern
Yeah; just for starters, such a sandy area seems like a serious risk on its
own to a rover, never mind the risk actual geysers would pose. The geysers are
interesting, but are they worth jeopardizing an entire rover expedition for?

~~~
troymc
You don't have to use a rover. What about a quadcopter or balloon filled with
heated gas?

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forgotusername
Good luck.. the highest atmospheric density on Mars is equal to the density
found 35 km above the Earth's surface

~~~
aidenn0
I think a latex balloon filled with hydrogen could achieve positive buoyancy.
Just bring a little bit of water and you can make your own hydrogen.

~~~
debacle
I don't know of many latexes that are springy at -100 C.

~~~
aidenn0
Touché. See Camper Bob's response for something that would make more sense.

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jonknee
Depends on your point of view I suppose, all of Mars is dangerous (100%
lethal!) if you're a human.

~~~
diggan
Unlike Tellus where nothing is lethal.

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jl6
Could they not simply be rocky outcrops that are covered and uncovered by
seasonal sandstorms?

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usefulcat
If that were the case, they would cast shadows.

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earlyriser
I see some shadows in the bigger dune at the bottom-left (crossed by the
yellow line).

~~~
jl6
Yeah these do kind of look like they have shadows. Plus a rocky outcrop could
still be fairly flat and cast minimal shadows. I say it's rock and call
Occam's razor on the other theories.

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MattBearman
It would seem David Bowie knew about these way before the rest of the world

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fotbr
Nope, black spidery things on Mars aren't dangerous at all.
[http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100117081507/babylon...](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100117081507/babylon5/images/c/c8/Mars_Dig_02.png)

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freehunter
Dangerous how? Toxic to humans? At risk of unsettling sand around a
rover/human? Is the question asking if they are something that would
consciously attack someone?

Everything is dangerous. The key to mitigating that danger is planning ahead
for it. A leaf seems harmless, but infection from a cut the leaf gave you
could kill you. A marshmallow is fluffy and soft, but if you swallow it
without chewing, it could expand and suffocate you.

Asking if something is dangerous is ridiculous. Asking what it is and how to
safely handle it is not. The article does a much better job portraying this
than the headline does.

~~~
ljd
Betteridge's Law of Headlines is an adage that states, "Any headline which
ends in a question mark can be answered by the word 'no'".

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridges_Law_of_Headlines>

~~~
ximeng
We know.

[https://www.google.com/search?q=site:news.ycombinator.com+be...](https://www.google.com/search?q=site:news.ycombinator.com+betteridge&tbs=qdr:m)

It's been mentioned 19 times already in the last month according to Google.

~~~
stephth
I didn't. First time I read about it.

Either way it doesn't seem very constructive - or gentlemanly - to downvote an
informed - and depending on the reader informative - comment.

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ximeng
I downvoted because it's not relevant to its parent. As freehunter points out,
the answer's not "no" it's "please refine the question". Perhaps you found my
mini-analysis on the frequency of Betteridge references informative, in which
case I welcome your upvotes.

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sidcool
The top comment here and on reddit is the same!! Either kaax is martian, or
just a plagiarist. Here's the link:

[http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/10vrag/are_those_sp...](http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/10vrag/are_those_spidery_black_things_on_mars_dangerous/?already_submitted=true)

~~~
aw3c2
It is a spammer that takes HN comments and reposts them at Reddit. Someone
should report that behaviour at <http://www.reddit.com/r/reportthespammers>

~~~
sidcool
I checked that guy's profile, he's not a spammer, just a karma whore.

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melvinmt
It feels weird to realize that according to Mars, we're the aliens invading
the planet. Makes me wonder about all the extraterrestrial "rovers" on our
planet.

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jhuckestein
Without a scale those images are largely useless.

~~~
ximeng
I can't quite figure this site out, but if I've got it right, should be around
10 miles.

<http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_024736_2565>

Edit:

Ahah, here we are, about 1km:

[http://hirise-
pds.lpl.arizona.edu/PDS/EXTRAS/RDR/ESP/ORB_024...](http://hirise-
pds.lpl.arizona.edu/PDS/EXTRAS/RDR/ESP/ORB_024700_024799/ESP_024736_2565/ESP_024736_2565_MIRB.abrowse.jpg)

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macey
This is such a trip! It kind of pisses me off that I'll die long before we
gain a thorough understanding of this kind of stuff.

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systematical
Crazy, looks like vegetation from 200 miles up but if the theory regarding CO2
is correct that is pretty crazy!

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JabavuAdams
WTF. How have I not heard about this, until now?

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VMG
only Ziggy Stardust knows

~~~
nacker
Him and Andrew Basiago

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwE8m50sbWk&playnext=1&#...</a>

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ktizo
David Bowie has built a fortress of solitude out of these at the Martian South
Pole.

~~~
thebigshane
context:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Ziggy_Sta...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Ziggy_Stardust_and_the_Spiders_from_Mars)

