
Ask HN: How do you fix “one/few years of experience repeated multiple times”? - ccajas
Usually it is said in the form of &quot;one year experience over 10 years&quot;. Or similar variations. I see this phenomena being mentioned several times in the field of programming.<p>It suggest problem of lagging in skills, basically spinning your wheels and falling well below expectations of employers.<p>I sometimes read about ways on PREVENTING it, but I rarely see it come up with solutions to fix it once you&#x27;re waist-deep into this problem.<p>For the sake of convenience, a lot of companies correlate years of experience with skill level when vetting candidates for jobs. But several programmers have fallen on the &quot;slow&quot; track for one reason or another, and break those expectations making them very tough to judge.<p>These programmers end up with &quot;senior-level&quot; years but still maybe junior-level in skill and wisdom. And need to catch up to the status quo or risk being un-hireable at many places.<p>How do you solve this problem when you&#x27;re already regarded as unfit for work?<p>How would they stand a chance against the average developer?<p>What companies are most willing to give the &quot;one year experience over many years&quot; worker a fighting chance and get them up to speed?
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stocktech
Fixing it is hard. The biggest hurdle is just admitting to yourself where
you're at and how you got there. As much as you can blame your previous
employer for your situation, it's ultimately your responsibility and you need
to own that.

From a hiring manager perspective, I wouldn't say that it's game over,
however. I've had plenty of devs get to the interview stage that have an
experience vs skill mismatch, maybe 5 years instead of 10, but I consider them
for maintenance work or our QA team that's less code heavy. For someone in
this position, those roles might be a better fit or the candidate would have a
place to prove themselves. Of course, you'd have to take a pay cut and take a
mid-level or possibly a junior position. If I offered someone with 5 years of
experience a junior position, it would probably be communicated that a bump
could happen in 6 months to a mid-level role. A trial period of sorts.

The key is to be upfront. I've had devs try to bullshit their experience into
something it obviously wasn't and it never works. I'd be blown away if a
candidate came in, acknowledged their deficiencies, and said "I'm doing XYZ to
figure it out and I really just need a chance to prove myself". Don't
underestimate the importance of attitude and industry experience.

> What companies are most willing to give the "one year experience over many
> years" worker a fighting chance and get them up to speed?

Something about this question rubs me the wrong way. If you've fallen into the
1x10 pattern, no company is responsible for giving you a fighting chance. The
burden is now on you. The advice I can give you is the same as any other dev,
but probably more important, find a way to show me your skills and that you're
working on improving. Open source work, code tests, side projects, anything
and be able to discuss them.

The 1x10 devs that I already have are the ones who reject the opportunities
given to them, who don't want extra responsibilities, and who aren't
interested in learning new things. You need to give me confidence that that
isn't you.

~~~
ccajas
> The biggest hurdle is just admitting to yourself where you're at and how you
> got there.

I state that in a lot of interviews. And also that I like to learn and improve
my skills. Companies don't seem to like it enough. Maybe I'm being too blunt
about my shortcomings. I do not bash other companies when I interview. I just
say I can do A, but I want to improve in B and C.

They don't delegate me to more basic roles, however. Maybe they think I am
overqualified? It seems like most places I interview would be confused as to
where they'd potentially place me as I no longer match with anyone.

How big of a pay cut are we talking? I'm not one to be really chasing after
money, but generally speaking I already am underpaid relative to the average
software engineer in my area and still have managed with my salary when I
worked. So I'm just looking for a better learning environment.

I discuss my previous jobs, and side projects (github.com/ccajas) and a few
projects even prompted companies to reach out to me first. But the after the
interviews it all falls apart. I haven't made it past phone interviews this
year.

> I'd be blown away if a candidate came in, acknowledged their deficiencies,
> and said "I'm doing XYZ to figure it out and I really just need a chance to
> prove myself"

I say that kind of stuff in a lot of interviews, and in my experience,
companies don't like it. They prefer someone already fully armed with the
knowledge. And usually they get it, because they can. I'm not limiting myself
to top companies. I apply to a bunch of local companies doing less glamorous
work.

I'm not a master of persuasion. But if they give me the benefit of the doubt
they notice that I meet their expectations. My company relationships are more
of a positive slow burn, so I tend to do better in atypical hiring processes.

One last thing I want to point out is that I have noticed a trend among the
companies that do hire me. They tend to be the kinds of companies that are
desperate to hire people because of high turnaround rate and unstable work
environment. If I work for one of them again, I'll just have to put some time
aside at work to teach myself better skills and become the mentor for others,
instead of seeking a mentor.

~~~
stocktech
If you're comfortable sharing, what are your shortcomings? How are you doing
on the technical questions? What level positions are you applying to?

> a few projects even prompted companies to reach out to me first

This raises a flag for me. If they're reaching out, they must be convinced of
your technical ability.

I understand you're frustrated and I don't want to read too much into your
post. However, how you're talking about your relationships, being blunt,
working at desperate places, it makes me think your interviewing skills need
work. A single interview faux pas can remove you from consideration. Being
negative or highlighting your faults puts you in a bad light. It's entirely
possible to remain positive, but still be honest about your experience.

I might have phrased "acknowledging their deficiencies" too literally. To give
you an example, I once interviewed someone who couldn't even explain basic
terminology. Their github was just OK. Yet, they knew about the company. They
spoke intelligently about their projects and seemed excited about what the
team does. They knew the technical portion didn't go great and were able to 1)
convince me they could learn and 2) positively related their existing
experience and prior ability to learn to the requirements of the position.
Great junior.

For the pay cut, there's too many factors to assume, but in this situation,
I'm not paying senior rates for lessor work. You also have no leverage so
you'd be at wherever I value the position and my belief in your ability.
Again, if you can prove yourself after hiring, I'd bring your pay up to an
appropriate place.

~~~
ccajas
I apply mainly to mid-level positions. Probably about 70% of the positions I
apply to are mid-level or nondescript, about 10% senior-level, and about 20%
junior-level.

> A single interview faux pas can remove you from consideration.

That's terrible. When you’re on the job, people can judge you all they want
but it’s gonna take many minor bad judgements (or a few serious ones) to pile
up to make them cut ties and fire you.

In an interview, way too many things have to go right. That's not a microcosm
of a typical job at all. With regards to professional faux pas, I prefer to
follow this: if one mistake is not worth firing someone from their job, it's
also not worth rejecting someone for a job.

Perhaps I can look into jobs where interviewing skills are not strictly
required? I count every real interview I go to as practice, and after
practicing with dozens of phone interviews, and about 10 on-sites, it's no
longer clicking for me.

So there's gotta be another way, I think.

------
jklein11
To me, this seems like it is either an issue of confidence or passion.

What makes you say that you have junior level skill and wisdom? If companies
have employed you for 10 years you are bound to have learned a bunch of things
in that period of time. A lot of blue flamers[1] fresh out of college may have
a fancy buzz words for describing things, but nothing tops experience.

If you truly have gone 10 years without picking up any experience that would
differentiate you from someone fresh out of college its pretty evident that
this is not where your passion lies. Would you be reigniting your passion, or
would you be trying to improve by sheer force of will. If its the latter, I
would consider making a career change. Writing code isn't the only way to make
money. You'll do a much better job and get more satisfaction out of doing
something you enjoy.

Obviously this is just my $.02 and I would definitely recommend against
blindly taking advice from strangers on the internet.

1.[https://www.reddit.com/r/blankies/comments/765fk4/blue_flame...](https://www.reddit.com/r/blankies/comments/765fk4/blue_flamer_defined/)

~~~
stocktech
I think the issue is more complex. Take an average college grad, put them in a
"good enough" company with a shitty manager and less than interesting work and
I think there's 10-20% of those grads who get comfortable and enjoy the
paycheck and low stress. At some point, they start to think about the future
or compare themselves to their peers, but turns out they don't have the skills
to get a new job, let alone match the paycheck Dave's getting. There's tons of
companies out there trying to maintain OLD OLD stuff. They're hiring too.

There's also a category of people who prefer work where they can come in, do
their thing, and leave at the end of the day. They're not looking for more
responsibility and there's nothing wrong with that, but they too are left with
a skills gap.

------
zer00eyz
> What companies are most willing to give the "one year experience over many
> years" worker a fighting chance and get them up to speed?

The simple answer is none.

The company would need to not only figure out why an individual was behind,
but then make a call if they were a worth while investment to get up to speed.
Too many variables too much room for dishonesty or it not working out. No need
to make that sort of investment when there are other people out there, who
will likely cost the same amount (all in) and be productive.

> I rarely see it come up with solutions to fix it once you're waist-deep into
> this problem.

Individual problems require individual solutions - Change what area one works
in (frontend vs backend vs embedded) and make a radical language change.
Basically start over and then work like a starving student (be hungry for
knowledge).

