

Show HN: Keep, an app that helps you love how you spend every dollar - tomrohlf
http://m.trykeep.com

======
nilkn
Based on my experience at least, YNAB (You Need A Budget --
[http://www.youneedabudget.com/](http://www.youneedabudget.com/)) is the best
budgeting software out there. It's a lot more complex than this, and unlike
something like Mint it does require you to manually enter transactions.

However, it is really the best interface I've found for setting a budget.
Probably the best feature is that it can naturally incorporate overspending.
If you set your grocery budget to $200 and you spend $250, YNAB isn't just
like "yo, reduce your grocery spending." It remembers that you overspent by
$50 and encourages you to incorporate that into next month's budget in a
flexible way.

Unless you're a multimillionaire, you can probably benefit from using it. In
fact, even if you are quite wealthy, plenty of celebrities have demonstrated
repeatedly that it's still possible to go broke in just a few years.

~~~
jonlucc
My wife and I were discussing this a few weeks ago. If YNAB could
automatically grab my bank transactions like Mint, I would be sold. I love
their philosophy on budgeting.

~~~
Haul4ss
The whole point of YNAB (Rule #1 of their program) is that you need to
proactively allocate every dollar you have. Every dollar has a job, and then
you need to manually enter when that dollar is doing its job so you feel when
that money actually gets spent.

I tried for years to use Mint, but it's too passive. Too easy to ignore. With
YNAB, every purchase goes in when we make the purchase, and I found it keeps
us more honest about our budget estimates and also helps to curtail frivolous
spending.

To each his own, of course.

~~~
gohrt
To be most useful, YNAB should know my passive spending, and then harass me
about all the dollars I am not reporting. Otherwise, I can just leak money and
not talk about it.

~~~
wutbrodo
I fully agree. It seems a little silly that if you have a busy period at work
and forget to pay attention for a few weeks, that's just a black hole (short
of going through credit card statements and trying to remember every cash
purchase). This happens all the time with Mint, and I can just go back and
categorize all the purchases that need doing so, with the only loss being that
the cash purchases I forgot about show up as non-specific cash spending
(through the initial ATM withdrawal).

------
aculver
One trick I found really helped me curb thoughtless spending in the past was
calculating the cost of purchases based not on the sticker price, but on the
sticker price + whatever the compounded interest would be for the same amount
of money on my mortgage. (At the time our interest rate was 5% with about 27.5
years left on our mortgage, so it effectively doubled the price of
everything.) The thought was that if we spent that money vs. putting it on the
mortgage, we were essentially locking those dollars in to being charged
interest for the life of the loan. It doesn't take into account re-financing,
etc., but it was a lot easier not to buy $10 smoothies vs. $5 ones. :-)

~~~
JoshTriplett
Thinking about interest and growth does help put prices in perspective. Using
mortgage interest rates doesn't work as well these days, since they've fallen
so much, but you can use the standard market growth rates instead: either 7%
or 4% depending on whether you take inflation into account.

------
welly
I'm finding the terminology a little strange for this one..

"Helps you love how you spend every dollar"? While I get the gist of what
you're saying, it makes my head hurt a little bit.

Am on Android (Moto G) and every time I tapped the goal amount text box, it
requested me to "Rotate device to portrait" despite my portrait lock being
turned on, so was unable to add a goal amount.

I like the idea of this app but not quite sure it works for me. I need more
than a pretty picture to keep me motivated to save! :) Good luck with it
though.

~~~
cjf4
Agree completely, this current trend of slapping "love" and "beautiful" on
every start up product is watering down the word a little bit. I love my
family, not paying rent.

~~~
msallin
Simple.com's homepage used to say "Beautiful banking, handcrafted in
Portland." <gag>

------
MrMeker
Not a good choice for a name. Google Keep has been around for a while and does
something similar: organization.

~~~
BorisMelnik
Immediately what I thought of as well, I use Google Keep for everything
notetaking / todo etc and would really have a hard time adopting this.

------
schnevets
I love it! A big part of my financial philosophy is based on a similar thought
exercise:

 _Before you make an impulsive decision, imagine a stranger walks up to you.
In one hand, he has the thing you 're about to buy. In the other hand, he has
the amount of money you are about to spend. He will give you one or the other
for free with absolutely no catch. Which one do you take?_

Besides that, I like the "hold to add cash" interface and I like that it's a
mobile web platform (although I hope an Android widget is in the works).
Hopefully they can get their server problems ironed out soon.

~~~
mfwziegler
Why do you like that it's a mobile web platform?

------
bsmith
I love the sentiment!

I'll try this out when I have more time later, but I think it's worth noting
that, of course, saving is only part of the equation. There is so much you can
(and should) do to reduce expenses outside of the mundane day-to-day, as well!
For great advice on pursuing financial independence or betterment, much of
which has changed my life and habits, see:
[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/) "Financial
Freedom Through Badassity"

~~~
sergiotapia
I read that blog yesterday as it was mentioned on a different thread. It seems
most of his advice is don't buy anything you literally don't need to survive.
What's the point of living if you can't enjoy your life? You'll be a rich
corpse, who cares?

What am I missing?

~~~
bsmith
I think the point is that your middle-class life is an "exploding volcano of
wastefulness" and you can make a lot of decisions that reduce your expenses
without sacrificing much, if any, quality of life. For example, living closer
to work and riding a bike or walking instead of driving a car everywhere—makes
you fitter, happier, and saves you cash.

Sure, he takes it to an extreme not all could stomach, but there is practical
advice in there for almost anyone in my opinion.

~~~
hsitz
Yeah, Mr. Mustache himself may carry it to extremes that most people wouldn't
want. But it seems he himself and his family are actually happier than they
were when they were spending more. Plus they're retired (or semi-retired) and
they have no money worries.

I think the optimal spending for most people -- i.e., the amount of spending
that would maximize happiness -- is far lower than the amount that most people
actually spend (in large part b/c people work at jobs they don't love to earn
money to buy stuff they don't need). Much of it is wasted on mindless luxury
that people come to believe is necessary and that doesn't really increase
happiness because of hedonic adaptation:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_adaptation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_adaptation)
Here's Mr. Money Mustache's piece on hedonic adaptation:
[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-
ad...](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-
and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/)

~~~
waterfowl
And MMM considers himself to be fairly "non extreme" compared to other big
names in the space(Early Retirement Extreme being the most prominent
contrast...that guy was harrrrrdcore)

------
dansimau

        $ telnet m.trykeep.com 80
        Trying 54.87.165.213...
        telnet: connect to address 54.87.165.213: Connection refused
        telnet: Unable to connect to remote host

------
JRobertson
I opened this on my iPad expecting to find an app store link at their
m.trykeep.com. I did not find one, instead I found a web page that kept asking
me to touch and interact with it, but that barely wanted to react. I had to
tap and hold 7 times to get the first "example" to work, and then closed it
and gave up after 5 attempts on the second.

I could not find it in the app store either, so is this a browser based
solution? If so, I highly recommend getting the touch sensitivity worked out
on chrome on the browser.

I do realize this may be load based from your servers getting hit and so if I
remember I will try again later.

Also, I get the impression this might require requires server connectivity, if
it does then you're excluding so many people without data plans.

I like the idea, just couldn't get the execution to actually work for me in a
way I'd consider using it.

~~~
tomrohlf
We haven't built a native app just yet but we're thinking in that direction.
If you have a chance to try it again open it up in safari or chrome on your
phone. Thanks for being patient!

------
Paul_Dessert
I think it's great. I love the simplicity and the UI. A lot of times we over
complicate things. This is a great example of getting back to basics. I'd
argue that this is not budgeting software, nor should it be. Instead, it's a
way for users to stop and think about what they are buying and ask themselves
if they really need to make the purchase.

I know someone who buys two drinks at Starbucks every day. To them, this was
about $7/per day. No big deal. I quickly did the math and showed her the
result, $2555 per year. Sometimes, perspective is a huge motivator.

Also, nice job on the design and web based app. I'm happy that I simply needed
to navigate to a URL on my phone. I didn't have to install another app, grant
permissions etc. etc..

Great work! Good luck!

------
DLarsen
Pretty neat. I'm also working on a side project in the same vein. The key to
improving spending behavior in my own household has been to focus on and
evaluate decisions. [http://www.spendlight.com/](http://www.spendlight.com/)

My approach is a bit broader in that I find it useful to record both the good
and bad decisions with a view toward improvement.

I also prompt users for a bit of self-evaluation. When you goof, you are asked
something like "What could you have done without in order to stay within your
limits?" When you do well, you are asked something like "What was the key to
making wise choices today?"

I'm not a big fan of the input mechanism. It's novel and fun, but I'd bet that
the fun wears out quickly.

------
avens19
I've made something to track spending on a weekly basis. I've found that most
budget apps are too heavy, and most run on a monthly cycle. I can easily
calculate rough figures for fixed income and expenses, I just need something
to track spending money. Doing a budget by week is much easier to track and
plan, and makes it easier to answer the question "Can I afford this?". Anyway,
here is the Android app:
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andrewoven...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andrewovens.weeklybudget)

And the mobile app:
[https://budgetapp.azurewebsites.net/](https://budgetapp.azurewebsites.net/)

------
smsm42
The app is clever, but as somebody with long-time interest in personal
finance, I feel the premise is a bit on the wrong side. Avoiding bad buys
doesn't mean the same sum is now somehow free to spend. You need to _both_
avoid bad buys _and_ have a sane budget with money allocated for your needs
and wants - which should come out of real money you earn, not imaginary money
you "saved" when not buying what you didn't need anyway.

Otherwise it reminds me a joke about a man who brags to his wife that he saved
money by running after the bus instead of taking it and paying the fare. The
wife says - next time run after a taxi, you'd save more! Unfortunately,
savings don't work exactly like that.

------
andkon
I really really like it. I see the value and have signed up and added to my
homescreen. Truly a great interface compared to typing out numbers.

Also I really want to turn this into an iOS app! There's some cool stuff you
can do with it natively, like add a buzz + sound when you save a buck, which
sure would feel satisfying (ever used the task management app Clear?). Let me
know if you wanna go that way and I'd be happy to put a weekend towards it.

~~~
tomrohlf
Awesome, I'm glad to hear you've found value in Keep! We're thinking about
making it native and will be sure to let you know if/when we do.

------
stronglikedan
A direct input would be nice. It took me five seconds to keep eight dollars by
holding, but it could have taken only one second with direct input. Any
particular reason that it's limited to this mechanic?

Also, it seems to be stuck on the eight dollar screen. It keeps asking me to
hold to $8, but never shows me a new photo. This is the stock Note 3 browser.

EDIT: Now I can't even get it to register $3. Perhaps we are hugging the site
too hard.

~~~
tomrohlf
hmmm... We've been optimizing for safari and chrome. Maybe give it a try in
one of those?

~~~
stronglikedan
Yup. Chrome worked well. Nice work!

------
Rakathos
FYI, it looks like the mobile site has some issues in IE on Windows Phone. The
white text is a bit hard to read with the background image [1], and refreshing
the page results in this [2]. Looking forward to trying it out though!

[1]: [http://imgur.com/vtp2PnZ](http://imgur.com/vtp2PnZ)

[2]: [http://imgur.com/3iEI4kw](http://imgur.com/3iEI4kw)

~~~
resurge
I also had the problem that when I selected an input box, the keyboard would
open and the app would think that I had flipped the phone. It then showed me
the black screen prompting me to flip it back which caused the browser to lose
focus of the now nonexistant input box causing the keyboard to collapse again.

~~~
ampedlemon
Thanks for the feedback, we'll push some fixes for the orientation bug tonight

------
Ended
This is a cool idea. My bank recently introduced a similar feature in their
mobile app. You can move a small amount of money from your current account to
your savings account in a couple of clicks (no need to log in):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12xjelPXqWo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12xjelPXqWo)

~~~
tomrohlf
Awesome video, thanks for sharing! Looks like we aren't the first ones to
build something for saving in the moment.

------
gamerDude
I really like this idea for more than just money. I think having a habit like
this to get rewarded to focus on long term goals over short term rewards would
be awesome to have.

It will be interesting to see if they can create a reward system good enough
to be effective.

------
cpayne
I think its very clever. I really like how your example takes me through the
steps first, then asks to sign me up for an account.

Much better than asking to create an account first, then walk me through the
app.

~~~
meisterbrendan
Thanks for the feedback! As you use the app, please let us know if there is
anything we could do to make it better for you.

------
eridal
it's really annoying that you wont allow me to open m.trykeep.com on my
desktop.. without even telling me why I can't .. simply redirecting to the
not-mobile page where I was before is asking the end-user to go away, like I
did

~~~
zheshishei
For anyone who doesn't want to pull out their phone, reduce the width of your
browser to about the size of a smartphone and then click the link.

------
sddhrthrt
On windows phone, keeping on holding opens a right-click menu and I cant go
ahead.

------
swah
Do all of those services process emails w/ your online purchases?

------
fideloper
mint.com, while not really innovating...at all...anymore... is still pretty
nice for tracking your various accounts, including investments and debts
(student loans, etc)

~~~
logician76
The email address is @intuit.com, so I'm guessing it's related to mint.

~~~
lost_name
[http://moments.intuitlabs.com/](http://moments.intuitlabs.com/)

You would be correct.

~~~
ampedlemon
Yep, this is a side project that a couple of us are working on but it has no
integrations with the Mint product.

------
mrpoptart
nexus 4: goal amount: this will cost put cursor in field keyboard opens window
registers as landscape due to width/height problem keyboard closes repeat.

------
emeltzz
This is a really neat piece of interaction design.

~~~
meisterbrendan
Thanks for the feedback! What about this works for you? What could be even
better?

------
lazyant
non-mobile link: [http://trykeep.com/](http://trykeep.com/)

------
cocolos
is the link dead?

~~~
meisterbrendan
It doesn't seem to be. Are you running into an error?

------
reshambabble
Wow. You've taken a key insight and created something that directly hits the
emotions of your users. You're engaging their feelings, passions, and desires.
It will be nice to see how your website, communications, and even your product
evolves!

