
How does Apple get away with this UI? - harikb
https://twitter.com/yetanotherfella/status/1204475446655504385
======
cr0sh
The thing I hate most about Apple's updates is that if you say "try again in
an hour", rather than prompting you if you want to update again, it just
starts the update!

My PB is supplied by my employer, so I'm using it all the time in the daytime.
Sometimes I have time to do the update, but sometimes I don't - but I might
anticipate that I can come to a stopping point in an hour or two. But I don't
get that option. If I say "wait an hour" \- it will just start the update in
an hour - killing my browser and tabs, my IDE, my terminal sessions, whatever
else I have open...

Hosed isn't the right word for it - fortunately IntelliJ allows me to continue
where I left off, and getting my tabs back is no problem in most browsers.
Terminal sessions are jacked, though. And just getting back to where you were
mindset-wise - that's a major pain (it's one thing when it's on your terms,
but when the rug is yanked out from under you, it becomes a real problem).

Ubuntu (and probably other Debian-based Linux systems - and maybe all of them
- so many distros I haven't tried or haven't played with in a long while -
sigh) does it right - if you say to try again later, it will pop up the same
dialog later. Most security updates aren't of the nature that waiting an hour
or a day is going to be a major issue (and if it were, we generally are
informed well ahead of time of it).

So - I can understand and feel everyone's pain on this; Apple really should
change this to allow user choice. Heck - I'd also love options to install "at
next shutdown", "at next powerup", and "at a set time/day" \- because at the
end of the day, when I shutdown my machine, that would actually be the best
time to do the install/update (for me at least).

~~~
saagarjha
> Terminal sessions are jacked, though.

Interestingly, I protect against this by running iTerm, which asks me before
quitting and prevents the shutdown.

~~~
allovernow
> Terminal sessions are jacked, though

Tmux might be useful for that.

~~~
antsar
If tmux is local, the reboot is going to kill that too. There are ways to re-
create your windows/panes automatically after reboot, but they come with
caveats.

~~~
freetonik
iTerm 2 can do that and even restore running processes. In my experience that
feature works well enough.

------
mthoms
I've been pressing "Remind me tomorrow" every. single. day. for the 31 days
since Catalina has been released.

I'm waiting for 10.15.2 (which thankfully, appears to be right around the
corner).

Edit: 10.15.2 appears to be available as of this moment. Though release notes
don't appear to be up yet(?)

~~~
danaris
Are you quite certain Catalina is the only update available to you?

I haven't updated to Catalina (and won't for some time yet, due to
institutional restrictions and legacy 32-bit software), but aside from the
badge on the System Preferences dock icon, I only get the "you have updates"
notification when there is an update available for the OS version I'm
currently running.

I _do_ have to click on the "other updates" not-a-button button in the
Software Update pane to see what's actually available and apply it, though, so
it isn't entirely obvious that there's something besides Catalina to install.

(I'm also not entirely certain that there isn't some kind of institutional
setting that's affecting this, or just weirdness on my end—I'm not trying to
say my experience is universal, just saying there might be another
explanation.)

~~~
mthoms
I think you're right actually. But as you also said, it's not immediately
obvious what updates are being referred to. The notification should be much
clearer.

------
dfabulich
They are pushing macOS Catalina pretty hard, but this pop-up is just pushing
you to the Software Update control panel.

There, you'll find that while the most prominent option is to upgrade to
Catalina, there's a teeny tiny link to install other updates, which is where
you can (and should) get critical updates for macOS Mojave.

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210788](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT210788)

Today's Dec 10 update addresses a kernel vulnerability, CVE-2019-8847. All
users should get this update, but click carefully to make sure you don't
accidentally try to upgrade to Catalina.

~~~
hanche
Oh, that's so astoundingly bad, it blows my mind! In effect, they are actively
hindering users who don't (yet) want to upgrade to Catalina from discovering
security upgrades. Surely, that cannot be their intention?

~~~
iscoelho
I'm not sure what this means. They released an update for a previous version
intentionally to allow them to resolve security upgrades. That does not sound
like hindering users.

The UI is clear. The notification is clear. Catalina only will install if you
specifically ask it to install. Notifications for Catalina are distinct from
Software Upgrades (they are two different notifications).

I do not understand people who assume the worst without even seeing it for
themselves. Some people just want a bit of drama in their life.

~~~
hanche
In my experience, I only get a rather generic notification for software
updates. When I click on it, I wind up in System Preferences, Software Update.
And that displays the Catalina update very prominently, then in a much smaller
font, “Other updates are available” with a “More info” link. Only after I
click the latter, do I learn about the security update for Mojave.

After having been pestered about Catalina for quite some time, obviously my
response is to close the window without looking further. If it weren't for the
current discussion thread, I would still not know about this security update.
This is why I called it hindering users.

(Not sure how your final comment applies here.)

------
rubyn00bie
This is hardly as bad as Windows 10 where I was quite literally given a prompt
(full screen modal, couldn't close) for a system update that said:

"Restart Now" and "Ok"

Guess what "Ok" did? Restarted the fucking machine, but _not_ right away...
no, it waited about ten minutes before randomly performing the update during a
game I was playing.

~~~
mrlala
That's not how windows updates work _at all_ so either you are just making
shit up or your memory is terrible.

~~~
gruez
I'm going to go on a limb and say that the parent omitted something, like
ignoring the updates for weeks prior.

------
dzhiurgis
I keep a list of shit like this:

\- [ ] Fix FaceTime audio ducking BS

\- [ ] Add screen sharing to FaceTime

\- [ ] VP9 decoder in Safari

\- [ ] Make Puck.app part of macOS

\- [ ] Make iMessage search actually useful

\- [ ] Tree style tabs (like that FF extension)

\- [ ] Safari profiles

\- [ ] A protocol to link profiles (tab A in iTerm opens links in profile A,
emails from email account B opens links in profile B)

\- [ ] Improve Preview reliability

\- [ ] Make screenshots save faster

\- [ ] Something to announce that my charger is plugged but not charging
(happens once a week - you realise you've got 2% battery left when everything
slows down massively)

\- [ ] Something to stop Mail opening main window when there's some letters
already open (aka behave like every other mac app)

\- [ ] Zoom on email when composing

\- [ ] Solve Mail app performance (3k of emails shouldn't take 5 seconds to
render on i9)

\- [ ] Spell checker is pretty bad

\- [ ] Reliable way to disable dedicated GPU (and a 15" MBP model without it -
most devs don't need it, but I understand devs aren't target market anyway)

\- [ ] This checklist was made with Notes app, which I starting to love, but
pasting this list back doesn't parse as a checklist

\- [ ] Unsure if it's macOS or iOS bug, but it's been like that for years -
storing Mom or Dad in contacts get's converted into Mom Lastname or Dad
Lastname. Trying to use Siri "Call Dad" results in "I can't find a number for
'Dad Lastname' in your contacts, would you like to search instead?".

\- [ ] Contacts adds invisible characters when copy/pasting phone numbers

\- [ ] Can't change audio input without disconnecting bluetooth speaker (while
on FaceTime)

\- [ ] Siri Announce can't tell apart english messages from non-english so it
just reads out this madness

\- [ ] 2 letters missing from keyboard in my language (confirmed "working as
intended" by Apple)

\- [ ] Can't share iCloud data with family who lives in different country

~~~
ben_w
To add to your list:

* When rebooting after an update, Chrome tabs will begin auto-playing YouTube videos around ten seconds before I enter my password to log in.

* Number of unread items != number shown next to “Unread” in Mail.app != number shown in red dot over Mail.app icon

* Step count and distance reported by Activity.app != values reported by Health.app

* Reminders.app does not in fact remind me of anything, ever

* Unable to have multiple simultaneous timers running in Clock.app, unlike Android equivalent

* Un-deleteable duplicate entries in Calendar.app

* Maps.app keeps reverting to driving instructions (I don’t own a car)

* If I am listening to my phone or tablet through Bluetooth headphones, and an alarm goes off, the alarm first silences the headphones and then comes out of the phone or tablet instead

Some are macOS issues, others are iOS, but they’re all problems.

~~~
bobbylarrybobby
You can set your preferred mode of transportation in Settings > Maps. No help
for the other myriad issues though

------
crazygringo
This is silly. If you click _anywhere_ on the notification it brings you to
the "Software Update" preferences dialog where "Advanced..." lets you uncheck
"Check for updates". There are a bunch of options, actually, for very granular
control, like whether to download in advance or not.

And here's the thing... this is _good_ UI, because...

Like herd immunity, I want _everyone_ to be installing security updates as
soon as convenient to prevent malware from spreading. What is shown are
_exactly_ what the easy, default options should be. But if you're an informed
consumer and have specific reasons to disable updates, then "Advanced..." is
_exactly_ the place to put it.

~~~
plorkyeran
Unchecking "Check for updates" does not make this stop appearing every day if
you aren't running Catalina because they conflate notifications for new major
OS versions and for security updates.

------
president
I remember this was one of the things that made people switch to Apple from
Microsoft around ~2006. Looks like Apple is turning into Microsoft now.

~~~
ProAm
Apple is in it's Microsoft ME phase of life.

~~~
jonplackett
Are you sure it’s not Vista already?

------
wilg
The best part is "Try Tonight" never actually works.

~~~
cactus2093
This really seems like a fixable problem, if my laptop is in sleep mode in my
backpack overnight but > 70% battery, why can't it still install the update
overnight?

PS4 is also laughably bad at this. It's been sitting there, plugged in and
connected to internet for 6 months, in rest mode and not completely powered
off. But it'll wait until I finally try to play a game to force me to download
and install 50GB of updates right then.

~~~
inetknght
> _This really seems like a fixable problem, if my laptop is in sleep mode in
> my backpack overnight but > 70% battery, why can't it still install the
> update overnight?_

Yes, that way you can wake up with a 20% battery. Just enough to power it on
and get all kinds of warnings about how there's not enough power left to run
things.

~~~
asdff
Apple could be brilliant here. Notification on phone/watch: "your mac has an
update, you want it right now?"

~~~
jonplackett
You’re suggesting MORE update notifications? No thanks

------
breatheoften
There are so many huge UI fails in Apple products nowadays ...

My most recent encounter is pretty much anything to do with Apple Pay
(especially on the mac). I couldn't get any transactions to complete. Ended up
being that my address didn't validate (apparently) because it was 'too long'
\-- good luck figuring that out via the (horrific) Apple Pay address form edit
UI ...

~~~
Someone1234
Apple Pay story: We had a credit card on the account that was expired by
months and thrown away. We couldn't delete the old card because it was the
default[0], and we couldn't add a new card to make the default without
entering the last digits of the old (which we no longer had). We also couldn't
cancel a subscription without the last digits.

Ultimately found a work-around by going to the accounts website and adding the
new card from a family plan member (which didn't require the last digits of
the old on the main account holder's account) and then cahnging the default
and deleting the old. But it wasn't documented anywhere.

[0] [https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203905](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT203905)

------
marssaxman
This irritated me so much that I disabled "OSXNotification.bundle". No more
popups.

~~~
closetohome
I blocked their update server with Little Snitch. Similar effect.

~~~
m463
I did that too. Little Snitch is a wonderful app (although I suspect it lets
DNS lookups through)

------
settsu
Microsoft and Apple are unlikely to ever make this as easy as flipping a UI
switch at this point. It'd be careless to provide a simple means of allowing a
mainstream user to effectively disable the delivery of security patches.

~~~
Mirioron
Is it actually true? Are the updates really for security and that these
companies care about our security so much that they're willing to create a
really bad user experience? My dad has an old machine now that is essentially
unusable due to updates. The machine is used rarely enough that almost any
time it is used some of the software (Windows, the browser or something else)
wants to and automatically updates. The problem is that you cannot do
_anything_ for 15+ minutes when that machine updates. I guess it keeps him
secure by discouraging him from using the computer in the first place.

~~~
settsu
Ideally? No. Inevitably? Probably.

An operating system is software. _Most_ software eventually stops being
updated.

Microsoft has historically done a pretty reasonable job at delivering security
patches to old versions of Windows but that eventually ends.

Apple tends to EOL their OS updates relatively sooner but they will still sign
security patches for older versions at times.

Your dad's computer may continue to be technically operable but will
inevitably become functionally obsolete.

It's unfortunate but it happens.

Automobiles that required leaded gas to run right might be a good analog here:
you could/can keep them running, but at what cost. Leaded gas was a known
health danger so the benefits in that regard were clear, but also look at the
advances that have been made in internal combustion engines since leaded
gasoline was phased out.

Likewise, an old computer (namely one that is connected to the internet)
becomes a risk and Microsoft does not have the impetus to continue supporting
it.

And this is the point when the suggestion to install a friendly version of
Linux is made. But frankly I'm not sure I'd even go to that trouble before
reviewing what your dad's needs actually are and considering other devices
that may actually be a better solution for the time and money.

------
camgunz
I really wish Apple would figure out how to update my machine without making
me turn it off.

~~~
rafaelvasco
People complain about this all the time. I've been using Windows 10 for some
time now and never had a problem with it. No forced restarts, no update
available popups. It just works silently;

~~~
yellowarchangel
Once you get used to Linux updates happening without restarting or freezing
your computer, you'll never want to go back.

In a world with security updates, updates seemingly every day, every week, and
monthly large updates, this would be such a great feature on MacOS.

~~~
ThrowawayR2
> " _Once you get used to Linux updates happening without restarting or
> freezing your computer, you 'll never want to go back._"

I suppose those "System Restart Required" messages on the console from Ubuntu
Server after updates are just imaginary then? /s

~~~
godshatter
Ubuntu is turning more and more Windows-like it seems. I was on PCLinuxOS for
a while, and updates were user-initiated, iirc. Most wouldn't require a
reboot, unless there was a kernel update. You could do those updates and
happily not reboot for days, only getting the new kernel when you did. Now
I'll get icons and messages indicating that I have security updates available,
and after a while I'll be told that I need to reboot (since it apparently did
them for me instead of waiting on me to do it myself). Then it would bug me
more and more often to reboot until it just left the message on the screen.
I'm running simulations, I'll do it when they finish. At least it hasn't
progressed to the stage of just rebooting at an inconvenient time, which seems
to be the norm in windows.

Still, it's inoffensive enough that I haven't bothered tracking down how to
make it act sane again.

~~~
jedieaston
As far as I know, Ubuntu is still the only one that can livepatch the kernel
in the background without bringing down the whole system. (Maybe RHEL 8 can
now too?) I think the “system restart required” message means that something
was running that it updated, and the only way to guarantee that it stops and
restarts is for the user to restart the whole system.

~~~
godshatter
I just assumed that they installed the new kernel in a different directory and
pointed there via grub or whatever when rebooted. I wasn't thinking about
live-patching the active kernel. That's pretty nifty if they can pull that
off.

I just want them to not do anything, even security updates, without my
explicit permission despite their fears over the security of my system. I have
reasons I'm not updating right now. It comes down to the question "who's damn
system is it, anyway?"

------
wodenokoto
The most infuriating of those are the “turn auto update on”

Actually the worst part is that if you prolong it long enough it will install.

But, Ueah, how do they get away with it? It’s just something you live with. I
guess this is like how people just resigned to keeping the IE toolbars in the
nineties.

~~~
babypuncher
It's possible to block updates from the terminal, but it is intentionally made
obtuse because regular end users shouldn't be deferring updates indefinitely.

------
jbj
I got enough of that reminder and upgraded to catalina.

after this was done I could not ise microsoft office, to which I have a
license key. An "update" to office 365 was promted, to which I also accepted
.... turns out office 365 is a subscription based product.

as a user with some knowledge of open source alternatives I dont see why these
two corporations are lowering the incentive for me to keep using their
products, at one point it will just be easier to boot something like manjaro
or ubuntu from the hardware and get rid of reminders and subscription offers.

I am actually open for HN users suggestions for an OS replacement for an MBP
from late 2013

~~~
samcat116
There is a standalone version of Office 2019 that works just fine on Catalina
without a subscription

------
frostyj
IPhone is worse. Whenever there is a new version update, now you have to
update it or there will be a popup window the whole time, day and night, even
when using other apps. Annoying AF

~~~
luxuryballs
Really? I always have to go hunt to Settings to trigger my updates. Got a
screenshot? Maybe I’m pwnd by the man...

~~~
hombre_fatal
Yeah, never noticed that either across my two iPhones. I just notice that the
System Settings icon has a red dot and will run the update when I have time.

~~~
luxuryballs
So maybe the other guy is the one who is NSA pwned...

------
brootstrap
I have just accepted this as part of my daily routine now alongside other
great staples such as daily standup, email checking, checking logs, slack,
etc.

~~~
hostcontroller
sudo softwareupdate --ignore "macOS Catalina"

------
q845712
I recall that OSX used to let me select which updates, and I was always happy
to explicitly allow security updates while skipping the latest versions of all
the things i don't use, and also skipping unwanted OS upgrades. IMO the worst
thing they did for security was making it impossible to distinguish between
security patches, Garage Band releases, and UX changes.

------
dismalpedigree
I would pay money for an application that adds a “fuck off” button to this UI.
Hides the prompt for a week. I swear it only comes up when I am in the middle
of something. I have fallen for the dark pattern of delayed install a few
times and it is maddening. I update my software fairly frequently, but not
every damn day.

------
jonplackett
There’s another one they have like this, I think it was in iTunes

It says something like: Do you want to update iOS.

It then has a YES and a CANCEL but also a check box to say don’t ask again,
but it it only pays any attention to the checkbox if you click YES for this
time. Cancel just closes the dialogue and does nothing.

Dark patterns.

------
egfx
It’s even worse with the sign in with your Apple ID toaster. There is no
remind me later option that at least hides the toaster so you can continue
with your work. You have to click view and enter into the modal.

------
ungzd
BTW, a website with similar nasty UI aspects:
[https://grumpy.website/](https://grumpy.website/) (I'm not affiliated with
this)

------
TurkishPoptart
Yes. I am tired of updating and my 2015 MBP getting slower with whatever
software they add to make it intentionally bloated and slower. Planned
obsolescence is not a conspiracy theory. It's a real thing:
[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/24/apple-
sam...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/24/apple-samsung-
fined-for-slowing-down-phones)

~~~
qmmmur
In your opinion when is a good version to roll back to?

------
jdmg94
as commented on the same thread "...Windows will literally just install them
and make your pc restart if you wait too long." generally speaking, you
_should_ install updates at least for security's sake

------
2OEH8eoCRo0
I will be the first to jump on Apple but why would you turn off updates
entirely?

~~~
Rebelgecko
The Catalina "upgrade" breaks a lot of things, and for me the things it breaks
are much more important than the new features(?) that I'd get

------
Solvitieg
Would you guys prefer we go back to the day where browsers weren't
automatically updated? Oh but that's different right?

~~~
logicallee
It is different, yes.

Sometimes OS upgrades delete your mail:

[https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-mail-app-
catal...](https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-mail-app-catalina-
wipes-deletes-email/)

So that's the world we live in. However I think you have a very good point and
silent updates are an okay end-game, as they are with browsers. The stakes are
very high, as they are with browsers.

With browsers, here are the table stakes with auto updates: a silent update
without a prompt could introduce a security issue to all users - web sites are
untrusted and can send any html they want to browsers. Users browse websites
they don't trust all the time. They click links willy nilly. I could put in
any URL into this comment and you would click it, since you know you are on
latest Chrome or Firefox and you know any zero day would be patched. You view
HTML across a very hard security sandbox. So browser security issues could be
instant p0wnage, and keeping everyone always updated introduces a huge baddie
incentive on each latest update. There's no chance to fix it if everyone gets
it. The update mechanism also needs to be harder than Fort Knox. I imagine the
infrastructure for Chrome's update role outs has 10,000 human hours of
security hours spent on it.

The stakes are even higher with operating systems, though: people run local
applications they may rely on and which could break. Here it is not so much
security as functionality.

The software was written against and tested against a certain version. A new
version can behave differently. Software can't adapt to that, it's not live.

With web sites, at least it's always being served. If it renders weird in
latest chrome or firefox, there's a good chance it will get fixed. (The main
reason for this would be if it wasn't compliant to begin with.) Web sites are
always actively being served. If they're "dead" they're offline.

Software running locally is already there. It may or may not be updated. It
could be dead but people still use it.

So the models are different but with very high stakes in each case.

------
sneak
Not applying security updates puts you at risk. It is in your best interest to
make all of the paths lead to eventually reminding you again to update.
Nothing forces you to update, it will just remind you again that you need to.

~~~
trevyn
Catalina is not a security update.

~~~
sneak
Yes it very much is: it adds support for per-app, per-directory permissions,
like Little Flocker did. It’s a huge security benefit (stops ransomware, for
example) and is the main reason I updated to it.

Relatively unsurprising, considering that the developer of Little Flocker now
works for Apple.

~~~
Dylan16807
That's not a bugfix. Not having it won't make you any worse off than you were
for the last decade. You're not put a risk.

~~~
sneak
You're right, it's not a bugfix, but it is a security update. It makes your
computer immune to most types of ransomware, which is a huge and common threat
these days.

Not having that functionality was dangerous enough that someone wrote a very
involved program called Little Flocker, which was valuable enough to be sold
to F-Secure. Apple hired the author (although it is perhaps not directly
attributable to Little Flocker, he was well known in Apple-related security
circles prior) and in the next major OS rev after that hire, the functionality
was included stock in the OS.

People running Catalina are at greatly reduced risk from common threats from
malware.

It's absolutely a security update.

~~~
Dylan16807
You could still run that program.

It's a "security update" in that it improves security, but it's not a
"security update" in terms of preventing risk for exploits that have come out
or become popular since the last patch.

When people talk about always installing security updates as soon as possible,
they mean the latter.

------
java-man
"you don't own it"

hilarious.

