
New High-Tech Farm Equipment Is a Nightmare for Farmers - wycx
http://www.wired.com/2015/02/new-high-tech-farm-equipment-nightmare-farmers/
======
sandworm
A DRM exception for farmers? Why them and not the rest of us?

Farmers are the classic American go-to for everything politics. Be it guns,
corn in Coke, pollution standards, healthcare, immigration ... everyone is
ready to pity the poor farmer. I understand the rational. Farmers make the
food we eat. They also embody an American fantasy harkening back to the old
west. But this is also who I see red flags whenever I hear farmers brought up
in reference to a law.

Farmers are the purchasers of equipment used in their business. Why give them
a pass to bypass DRM but not the fishermen? Fishermen make food. Maritime law
affords them special treatment in a similar manner as land use laws treat
farmers. Surely fishermen have an equal tradition of self-sufficiency and are
also deserving of an exception. And then come the taxi companies who have long
maintained their own fleets. Soldiers? Surely we first need an exemption for
the armed forces.

I cannot think of any profession without a tradition of maintaining its own
equipment. That's probably because DRM is new tech. So it's impossible for
anyone to have a tradition of accommodating and obeying DRM. As we all suffer
it, we should all be free of it. No exemptions.

Let us instead pity the poor metal worker whose CNC machine cannot be moved
across the shop floor without triggering its GPS-dependant DRM.

[https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140109/03060325817/lates...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140109/03060325817/latest-
twist-drm-lockdown-geolocation.shtml)

~~~
jacquesm
> Let us instead pity the poor metal worker whose CNC machine cannot be moved
> across the shop floor without triggering its GPS-dependant DRM.

There's more to it than that. Machines in the sub .0001 precision class are so
sensitive to being moved around that it can take weeks of careful calibration
to get them to operate within spec. That 'gps-lockdown' is to make sure the
machine doesn't get moved around just for the heck of it taking it out of spec
and then having the manufacturer turn up after a bunch of complaining.

I'm not saying that that isn't being abused in this particular case but there
actually can be good reasons for this. Ostensibly another reason is that some
guy in Iran could set up a shop in the US as a front, buy a bunch of these
machines and then ship them to evade an embargo so that's why they are locked
to location.

In the case of high precision milling machines sometimes they have the machine
make it's own calibrated clamp down area to compensate for any deformation
suffered during a move. With lathes the situation is even more complex.

The calibration gear costs a multiple of what the machine itself costs,
usually works on the laser-interferometry principle and is removed off-site
after the initial calibration (it takes a totally different set of knowledge
to operate than the knowledge required to operate the machine). So you can't
just pick that machine up, move it 10', move it back and expect it to still
produce acceptable work.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
>That 'gps-lockdown' is to make sure the machine doesn't get moved around just
for the heck of it taking it out of spec and then having the manufacturer turn
up after a bunch of complaining.

Nonsense. If they move it, then that spoils the calibration, sure, but
rendering it inoperable is stupid. Also why would the mfr complain about
having to recalibrate the machine, they get paid for that if you're the one
that ruined it. You also seem to assume that machinists are mere button
pushers following instructions. A good experienced machinist knows more about
his/her machine's capabilities/precision than anyone ITT. Hell, for the
machine we're talking about, the machinist may well be an ME and if not, then
probably one won't be far from it.

>Ostensibly another reason is that some guy in Iran could set up a shop in the
US as a front, buy a bunch of these machines and then ship them to evade an
embargo so that's why they are locked to location.

Also nonsense. Let's not pretend that Iranians (as in Iranian physicists) are
too stupid to defeat such a scheme.

>The calibration gear costs a multiple of what the machine itself costs,
usually works on the laser-interferometry principle

No way. This is all just hand-waviness and big-words. Laser interferometry
systems have gotten much cheaper, more portable; and purpose built instruments
are available for all manner of trades.

Here, a maintenance mechanic job posting that requires knowledge of "laser
interferometer system" [http://jobview.monster.com/Maintenance-Mechanic-offre-
emploi...](http://jobview.monster.com/Maintenance-Mechanic-offre-emploi-
Windsor-ON-CA-145865785.aspx)

Now either that is a very special maintenance mechanic, or laser-
interferometry is more common than you thought.

~~~
jacquesm
> but rendering it inoperable is stupid.

No, it's prudent.

Having to toss a few hundred K worth of product is stupid.

> Also why would the mfr complain about having to recalibrate the machine,
> they get paid for that if you're the one that ruined it.

Because once there is a pile of money on the line people tend to forget that
they moved the machine.

> You also seem to assume that machinists are mere button pushers following
> instructions.

No, but calibrating a machine after installation is a job that requires
different tools and skills than operating a machine.

> A good experienced machinist knows more about his/her machine's
> capabilities/precision than anyone ITT.

More than the designers in some cases. But that's the exception, not the rule.
Typical machine operators are definitely not in the same class as the
technicians that install the machinery and calibrate it. Though over the years
some of them can become experts on _their_ machine over and beyond what
anybody else knows about it, and they can gain the ability to coax workpieces
from them with accuracy beyond what the machines are spec'd to.

> Hell, for the machine we're talking about, the machinist may well be an ME
> and if not, then probably one won't be far from it.

That still doesn't mean he/she has the expert view on what goes on inside it.
In my experience machinists tend to be experts on materials, tooling, cooling,
clamping, feeds & speeds, QA, packaging and sometimes alloys.

They tend to be less knowledgeable about electronics, motorized drives,
software, environmental factors.

>>Ostensibly another reason is that some guy in Iran could set up a shop in
the US as a front, buy a bunch of these machines and then ship them to evade
an embargo so that's why they are locked to location.

> Also nonsense. Let's not pretend that Iranians (as in Iranian physicists)
> are too stupid to defeat such a scheme.

Let me cite a representative of a manufacturer:

" Sorry you've not had a stellar service experience. PM me with your info,
names, etc. and I'll make sure you get better support.

Regarding the device, Weapons of Mass Destruction. Worst case for a negligent
violation would be Dr. Mori himself spending time in the slammer. That along
is enough motivation for DMG MORI to follow the regulation very carefully.
Other reasons include all of those stated above!

btw, no need to waste time on bypassing it. It is pretty solid. We have to
make it so Iran, N. Korea, etc's best can't bypass it. "

[http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/dmg-mori-
gildemeister-m...](http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/dmg-mori-gildemeister-
maho-cnc/mori-ellison-gyroscope-unlocking-273841/)

> No way. This is all just hand-waviness and big-words. Laser interferometry
> systems have gotten much cheaper, more portable; and purpose built
> instruments are available for all manner of trades.

Yes, amazingly miniaturization and such work even for expensive gear. That
doesn't mean it's suddenly much less expensive though it is definitely a bit
cheaper than in the past when the technology was brand new.

Just the setup is a couple of days (to reach thermal equilibrium), a basic
system is a few tens of thousands of dollars, a system capable of simultaneous
alignment of a 5 axis machining center to within a fraction of a thou will be
a tad more than that. Operators of that gear aren't free either.

> Now either that is a very special maintenance mechanic, or laser-
> interferometry is more common than you thought.

Or maybe there are multiple classes of such instruments for various
applications and ranges of precision?

Note how that job posting is for a maintenance mechanic and _not_ for a
machinist?

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
>No, it's prudent.

Trigger the "tilt sensor" require a supervisory override. Call it uncalibrated
operation. Now it's on the machine owner. Not your problem anymore.

>Because once there is a pile of money on the line people tend to forget that
they moved the machine.

Fine, detect movement if you don't trust the owners (you shouldn't), stick it
to the floor with a serial numbered bolt, whatever. Disabling the machine is a
step too far.

>They tend to be less knowledgeable about electronics

Which makes them easy marks doesn't it?

>btw, no need to waste time on bypassing it. It is pretty solid. We have to
make it so Iran, N. Korea, etc's best can't bypass it. "

/u/MoriGuy is a fool. Iran in particular has some very good schools, and no
doubt could defeat this scheme in any number of ways. This is only hurting
non-Iranian customers.

>miniaturization and such work even for expensive gear. That doesn't mean it's
suddenly much less expensive though

Actually, it does. You may not be able to by them at Home Depot yet, but you
can find them in tradesmen's tool kits, and in all manner of other uses that
wouldn't be possible without relatively inexpensive equipment.

>Note how that job posting is for a maintenance mechanic and not for a
machinist?

Pick ones that you like then. It was third in the list of results for me.
[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Laser+interferometry+millwright&t=...](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Laser+interferometry+millwright&t=lm)

~~~
jacquesm
> /u/MoriGuy is a fool. Iran in particular has some very good schools, and no
> doubt could defeat this scheme in any number of ways. This is only hurting
> non-Iranian customers.

Tell that to US politicians.

If the US demands that its trading partners make such machinery tamper proof
you really can't go and blame the manufacturers for actually complying with
those regulations and doing a reasonably good job of it. Whether or not it has
the intended effect is not actually their problem.

Agreed that disabling the machine is in some cases a step too far but having
witnessed just how ugly these disputes tend to get in some cases it is
actually a benefit because it puts a limit on the damage done.

You're arguing for a 'warranty void' kind of sticker. But that would not take
care of the worries of the lease companies (who are probably the biggest
beneficiaries of this kind of lock-out mechanism).

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
>Tell that to US politicians.

Ugh. I think we can both agree that there are some problems here. I wish I
knew how to go about solving them.

>Whether or not it has the intended effect is not actually their problem.

How far they go abusing their advantage, is.

>You're arguing for a 'warranty void' kind of sticker.

Not 'warranty void' pre se, but a 'we don't guarantee performance beyond some
threshold without a factory certified calibration.'

>But that would not take care of the worries of the lease companies (who are
probably the biggest beneficiaries of this kind of lock-out mechanism).

What a self-defeating tactic! Customer didn't make their lease payment; better
make sure they can't make the next one either!

------
noonespecial
Where I work now, I'm basically paid to break into this stuff for a living.
Its nothing but a mountain of 10-20 year old "protected" protocols. All of
which are now unsupported, obsolete, or completely forgotten by long out of
business companies.

If the farmers think its bad now, just wait a few years. DRM hurts everyone.
Its like toxic waste. A huge externalized cost that lets a company eke out a
small short term extra profit at the expense of society at large. We need
"clean air act" level legislation to fix it. We've actively done the opposite.

~~~
mey
What's the economic model? Supporting systems no one else will with clients
that can't migrate to some other system?

~~~
noonespecial
The model is simple. Tons (quite literally) of steel have been rendered
useless by ounces of failed silicon. The OEM's are unable or unwilling to
provide replacements insisting that all that steel must be torn out and
replaced in order to get the "updated" program for which they demand 100's of
$k's or even millions plus "integration costs" etc.

Usually a $300 off the shelf PLC and a little patience will have them back up
in no time. Sometimes it gets really hairy and I have to make little protocol
converters with a custom PCB and a little code on a micro. Its almost all from
the 80's and 90's. Its not rocket science by any stretch. Its more like
plumbing (except in this case, the builder is telling you that when the sink
clogs, you need a new house because they don't make that faucet anymore).

I mostly do fixed assets (old production plants and such) but it works for
tractors, boats, earthmovers, and other vehicles as well.

------
Trisell
The other issue I think will be longevity. I grew up on a farm, and every
piece of machinery that we used was older then I was by about 10 years, at
least. Farmer's expect to purchase a tractor, and then run that piece of
equipment for the entire life of the FARMER.

It feels like the tractor manufactures today are catering to the mega farms,
not the smaller farms that make up a larger portion of our farming
infrastructure. And the small farms only buy a new tractor every 10 - 20
years. Not every 3 - 5 years for a tax break.

~~~
Loughla
That second comment nails it. Family farms are going the way of the dinosaur,
and large outfits want a machine they can use for three seasons, depreciate
and eliminate for both a tax write-off and upgrade.

I legitimately believe we'll see the death of true family farms in my lifetime
(I'm in my 30's). What we'll see are family farms in name only, with a multi-
million dollar, multi-national backend.

~~~
benmanns
Why would you spend $100k on a tractor every 3 years to get a $30k discount on
taxes?

~~~
jchrisa
The used market is pretty good.

~~~
graeme
But you need to declare the sale as capital gains.

I also don't understand this argument. I use computers for my business. It
makes it cheaper to get one for business than for personal use, but I'd still
like the things to last as long as possible.

~~~
Spooky23
A PC is different because there isn't much correlation between age and
operating costs.

With something like a server, as long as you can deploy them quickly, you
actually can reduce costs by replacing them in step with the Intel tick/tock
cadence.

------
jonah
Wired (and iFixit) are getting activist about DMCA exceptions. This is great.
A couple weeks ago Kyle Weins wrote[1]:

"No one has yet been prosecuted for hacking their own car, but they could. And
as locks become more prevalent, the EFF and iFixit are willing to bet that,
eventually, some carmaker will bring the DMCA hammer down on a hobbyist's
head. So we're are taking a stand now."

"Want to speak out in support of this DMCA exemption? Tell the Copyright
Office that car owners should be able to repair and modify their own
automobiles. You've got until February 6 to make your voice heard."

HN discussed that article too.[2]

[1] [http://www.wired.com/2015/01/let-us-hack-our-
cars/](http://www.wired.com/2015/01/let-us-hack-our-cars/)

[2]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8936382](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8936382)

------
logfromblammo
This is just the sort of issue that inspires open-source hardware movements
like the one that produced this:
[http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Lifetrac](http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Lifetrac)

The most recent iteration is no match for the big commercial farm equipment,
but it does have the notable advantage that being able to build it yourself
necessarily means that you can diagnose its problems and repair it on the same
terms.

~~~
markvdb
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9007036](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9007036)

Not the first time I heard that comment...

~~~
robertfw
Really sad to hear that the project has gone down the tubes. It was one of the
most exciting open source hardware projects I've ever seen. I think something
like this is vital, and I hope that someone is able to pick up where OSE left
off.

------
agoetz
Modern EPA requirements mean that it is impossible to design a compliant off
highway commercial vehicle without relying on advanced electronic process
controls. Your grandfather's tractor might be repairable with baling wire, but
it also releases a ton more diesel particulates.

[http://www.deere.com/en_US/ProductCatalog/FR/media/pdf/8r_se...](http://www.deere.com/en_US/ProductCatalog/FR/media/pdf/8r_series/it4_45549_2011.pdf)

There's no incentive for companies to publish information on their vehicle bus
interfaces, since it would basically give away trade secrets to competitors.

~~~
CamperBob2
The ironic thing is that failing to publish schematics and bus interfaces is
nothing more than a temporary inconvenience to competitors, especially (but
not limited to) the Chinese. They cloned a whole goddamn Apple store, they can
clone your tractor. That's what they do.

It does, however, encourage planned obsolescence by keeping you from
maintaining your own out-of-warranty farm equipment.

------
chris_wot
It sounds like there is a market for either a. Tractors with very limited
electronics, but easily repairable, or b. Hi-tech tractors that are completely
open systems.

What you have here is an industry ripe for disruption. John Deere makes
enormous amounts of money on farm capital expenditure but _also_ operational
expenditure. But their service is crap (two days for a sensor to be fitted?
Someone tell the weather not to rain or disrupt harvest, John Deere's
equipment needs _time_ to be repaired!).

In a market economy, one would think that someone would see an opportunity
and, you know, _compete_.

~~~
bsder
Um, exactly what is your annual market for tractors when the average tractor
is 10 years old?

Call it 20,000 tractors? Now, how much of that market are you going to pick
off? And can you make a business of it?

This lack of volume is _exactly_ why A) the companies are locking things down
and B) the service calls take too much time. I'd bet that practically _ALL_
the service calls occur right before spring planting and right before fall
harvest. Thus, your service people are incredibly busy exactly twice a year
and totally idle the rest.

(My estimations look about right:
[http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/machinery/machinery-
news...](http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/machinery/machinery-news/john-
deere-holds-market-share-as-tractor-sales-fall/44525.article) "John Deere has
retained its tractor market share of about 30 per cent in 2010, putting it top
of the table again with 4,427 units sold."

------
rjdagost
Allow me to play devil's advocate here. I used to work for a company that
produces measurement equipment for professional technicians. It's big,
complicated, dangerous, and expensive equipment that is comparable in cost to
the tractors discussed in this article. The products employ a number of
measures to prevent end-users from tampering with things that shouldn't be
tampered with (especially the firmware). Partly this is to discourage piracy.
But mainly this is done because the equipment is quite complicated and there
are not many people in the world who understand the technology well enough to
make repairs on their own. It's very easy to cause unintentional errors that
can cause much more serious damage than the original minor problem. And when
the failure of your equipment can cause serious property damage, injury, or
death are you going to make it easy for people to modify your product's
firmware?

~~~
Xorlev
Make it open. Then add warnings and void the warranty. If someone has a
legitimate need to modify it they should be able. If it's that dangerous one
would hope the care used in operating goes goes tenfold for any modifications.

If it is big and complicated, your users probably don't want to modify it for
fear of causing damage. If they do, the risk is on them. If someone wants to
modify it they will. Wouldn't you rather they have all the information rather
than trying to obscure it?

~~~
rjdagost
You are assuming that users are making rational assessments of both their
skill level and also of the difficulty of the modifications they are seeking
to perform. Often the most overly optimistic people are some of the most
unskilled. I dealt with these folks for years and unfortunately there are many
scenarios when you just have to protect the user from himself for his own
good. And no, slapping a "changing firmware voids the warranty" clause to the
product sale will not protect you from legal liability when the users hacks
your system and loses an arm. There are many real-world scenarios where the
Silicon Valley motto of "fail fast, fail often" is just not acceptable.

------
ejain
I was under the impression that farms increasingly rely on the "Tractor as a
Service" business model, i.e. they pay someone who has a fleet of the latest
tractors (incl operators) to harvest their fields etc.

~~~
Spooky23
That's for the massive farms in the Midwest growing corn and wheat.

------
raincom
This sounds like the same experience people have with their out-of-warranty
german cars. Either take it to the stealership or buy diagnostic system made
by non-VW guys. Even if you have the diagnostic system to read codes from ECU,
you are left wih testing many sensors: whether the sensor needs to be replaced
or cleaned. But one has to know the details of resistance etc to test the said
sensor.

And these sensors are not cheap. They cost more than a tire!!

~~~
bri3d
I actually find new electronic automotive systems to be easier than the "old
way" (tracing wires, probing with a multimeter, etc.): oftentimes the issue
will have diagnosed itself, and, if not, the ECU diagnostic tool will have an
actual value display and a list of actuators you can hit to see if the sensor
responds appropriately. I've never seen a sensor that's more than about $150,
but I'm sure they're out there.

The frustrating part (which is indeed common to German cars and high-end
tractors) is that the diagnostic systems are all loaded with unnecessary and
ridiculous manufacturer protectionism. You can't even clear the "Change Oil"
light on a new Porsche without a Porsche diagnostic system or the reverse-
engineered clone tool (Durametric). And even once you've found a broken sensor
or component, it's often pointlessly "coded" (its serial number written into
an EEPROM) such that the factory diagnostics tool needs to bless its
replacement.

------
freshhawk
"But under modern copyright laws, that kind of “repairing” is legally
questionable."

Questionable? If it becomes politically unpopular enough, they will certainly
jail people for it. It's explicitly illegal but those laws are not evenly
enforced. They seem to acknowledge the DMCA but then fall back to the
"questionable" position saying it's "entirely possible" the farmer becomes a
criminal. This is video game console modding, they are even using pirated
proprietary software.

INAL, am I misunderstanding the state of things? Is there some reason, besides
the political weakness created by going after farmers, that this is
"questionable"?

------
merrua
What's built not to be repaired, is bad value for money.

~~~
hga
I read it as "repaired by the blessed people and parts".

What I don't understand is, if this sensor fails so often, why doesn't the
farmer keep one in stock. That he's willing to have the machine idle for 2
days to get it suggests this isn't a really big problem for him.

~~~
mschuster91
> What I don't understand is, if this sensor fails so often, why doesn't the
> farmer keep one in stock.

Probably because it's impossible as JD as only vendor only sells the part to
authorized service shops, with contracts forbidding sale to individual
customers (edit: and the sensor is likely patented too, to prevent clones,
like Apple did with Magsafe).

Or worse, each sensor/component has a UUID and registers with the ECU over the
communication bus... and to allow the sensor to be used with the ECU, it has
to be authorized with a key provided only to authorized service shops.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
I would assume the same consumer protection laws that mandate the sale of
automotive parts also covers farm equipment.

The issue is that the OBD standards have a mode for restricting access (0x27)
until the test equipment has passed a challenge-response phase. The exact
method varies but it is often a fairly simple scheme such as multiplying a
secret key by a random value and returning part of the product for the ECU to
confirm. The keys can be discovered by reverse engineering firmware or
capturing enough initialization packets to work out the system. One of my ECUs
from a defunct manufacturer has the ever original 0x6789 as its key.

------
swamp40
Let me play devil's advocate here and suggest a few reasons why bypassing this
"minor hydraulic sensor" might not be the smartest move.

1) Someone might get hurt.

2) Some _really expensive_ part of the machine might get damaged.

It _is_ within the realm of possibility that the engineers who designed this
system knew what they were doing when they decided to shut down an entire
machine when a single "minor hydraulic sensor" goes bad.

~~~
joelthelion
It's also entirely plausible that shutting down everything is the default
behavior when a problem is detected. It's much simpler from an engineering
standpoint, and safer for the manufacturer.

------
Jemaclus
As a web developer by trade, if I wanted to get involved in a project like
this, having zero farming experience, where would I start?

~~~
logfromblammo
Well, by the white-hat route, you would talk to a farmer for a long time,
figure out the exact dimensions of the black box, and build a white box to
replace it.

By the grey-hat route, you analyze the black box and patch out or bypass the
security features in it. You allow the owner to jailbreak the hardware, while
still largely using the original manufacturer software and firmware.

By the black-hat route, you illegally access manufacturer proprietary
information and publish it, possibly along with statements indicating the
exact extent to which the company profits by arbitrarily limiting the self-
repair abilities of its customers. This would make it easier for the grey-hats
to write jailbreak exploits and discourage farmers from buying in to the
abusive business practices.

If you ever want to be paid for it, white-hat is the way to go. You have to
look at how farmers currently use the technology and then figure out how to
replicate those use cases without the use of closed technologies. Think about
how Tomato or OpenWRT help people use their wireless routers in the way they
desire. You would essentially be writing new firmware for a piece of hardware,
albeit hardware that can cost the owner tens of thousands of dollars if used
incorrectly.

Without knowing anything about tractors, I would guess that the modern ones
include a digital hardware controller that can monitor and control every
aspect of a diesel cycle engine. They may include GPS receivers and mapping
and routing software. They would also include modules to control the
interchangeable tools that may be mounted on the tractor, which would require
sensor feedback.

By this time, they should be largely self-driving, and maybe even have their
own Twitter accounts. I'd save that crap for last.

~~~
bri3d
The gray hat and black hat approaches are actually fairly profitable in the
automotive industry and could probably sell well in the farm industry too.

Gray-hat reverse-engineered tools like Durametric for Porsche and VAG-COM for
VW sell with moderate degrees of success into the enthusiast and independent
service shop market (where $800 for a Durametric with 40% of the capability is
a lot more appealing than $14,000 + service plan for a PIWIS).

The black-hat approach seemingly can be profitable (like all black-hat
pursuits, depending on your moral beliefs) as well: various Chinese
manufacturers make enough money selling knockoff Mercedes diagnostic
"multiplexers" on eBay to make it worth their while to produce them.

There are a ton of value-add products you can sell once you've reverse
engineered a control system, too, like custom tuning and add-ons unavailable
from the manufacturer.

~~~
logfromblammo
...with the associated legal risk. If you start making too much money, you
need to carefully structure your company to be raid-proof and judgment-proof.
Make daily off-site, offshore backups. Don't ever do sales and manufacturing
in the same country. Put your supply chain in a different business structure
than your customer management, which is likewise separate from your reverse
engineering operation. Use strawman purchasers to acquire your OEM hardware
for analysis.

All that represents overhead costs. If you don't pay them, your company could
potentially be eaten by lawyers.

Only white-hats can sleep soundly at night. (They would be naive to do so, but
they do have that option.) They are also the only ones able to accept an over-
the-table buyout offer.

That said, the grey-hat route is probably the most fun, and likely to attract
people from the "because its there" crowd. Judging from the jailbreakers in
the console and mobile markets, they might just do it just to kick a
multinational in the nuts and run away, laughing.

------
acd
Not being able to fix things yourself is bad for the environment. Things that
you use and throw is by design bad. DRM also means not being able to improve
on the product created by the corporate entity.

As hackers we need to be able to tinker and repair the things we have bought.
Components that we by need to be recycled. Your old cell phone and laptop
needs to be converted to a new one not thrown on the junk yard as trash or end
up at tash dumps in Africa or China.

------
TeMPOraL
This is the classic, unfortunate reality - the disconnect between what is
legal and what is right. Yes, the companies are well within their rights to
restrict access to the internals of products they sell. But by doing that,
they are just being total assholes. In this case we have companies literally
providing negative value (relative to older, non-DRMed equipment) and charging
more.

------
fredgrott
Its designed to protect the income revenue stream of farm implements dealer at
expense of the farmer whether they are single or a corporation.

------
wahsd
The problem is the pervasiveness of our new business models that depend on
perpetual dependence and licensing. It is rather ironic that in the country
most obnoxious about freedom and personal property, we never really own
anything; we are a culture that has been groomed on dependence on the
corporate matrix.

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georgeecollins
The same issue exists, on a larger scale, for cars. Manufacturers have a
motivation to lock you into dealer maintenance and DRM on the electronics is a
great tool for this. We need to be the ones to educate consumers that its good
when thing are hackable.

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Aardwolf
Not easy of course, but how about throwing out the computer, keeping the
chassis and engine, and controlling it by another, open source, computer.

Would that be legal circumvention of the DRM?

