
Announcing Starfighter - jsnell
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2015/03/09/announcing-starfighter/
======
sfink
Hey job seekers. I'm level 45 in starfighter with a power VI blaster in C++
and IX in Python. $100 to get you to level 30, x1.5 per level above that
(though obviously I can't get you above 45, but I know a guy so I can
subcontract up to 52.) You just have to set up a port forward from your
machine and I'll take care of the rest. Contact info is in my profile.

Don't get suckered into using a bot. They may be cheaper in the short run but
you know you're going to get lifebanned. My prices are nothing compared to
your future earnings.

~~~
olivercreashe
I like this idea, but I also like the one proposed here
[http://ortask.com/a-better-way-to-hire-developers-and-
tester...](http://ortask.com/a-better-way-to-hire-developers-and-tester..). I
fear that starfighter will overlook goood candidates simply because they are
not good at gaming, which makes the second approach by ortask more interesting
and maybe balanced.

~~~
tptacek
It's a legit concern, but remember, we use the word "gaming" in the loosest
sense here.

------
tptacek
I'm all, involved? and stuff? You can, like, ask us stuff, I guess.

Let me answer the most frequent questions we're getting right here:

"CTF" stands for "Capture The Flag". Conventionally, it's a contest with a
collection of "flags" each of which is guarded by a programming puzzle; teams
of people compete to collect flags. What we're doing is not a conventional
CTF, but if you want to get the flavor of what we're doing (without the whole
game dynamic), check out MICROCORRUPTION.COM, which is a more conventional CTF
we ran last year.

Security is one of two problem domains we're starting with. But this isn't a
"security recruiting" service, and our take on security uses it as a venue for
systems and network programming, not for the minutia of SQL query quoting
rules.

~~~
rakoo
Thank you for running a long-term CTF ! I've always been interested in those
"improve your coding skills by playing" challenges but from my inexistent
experience most of them fall in a combination of:

\- They are timeboxed

\- They are mostly (if not only) about cracking security

\- They are targeted towards low-level languages

You've already stated that it won't be timeboxed (which totally makes sense as
a hiring "middleman": you're interested in applicants at all times). You
already said that security will not be the single domain. Now, will I be able
to use Starfighter as an excuse to finally stop procrastinating and learn that
shiny new language I've had on my to-learn list for far too long ? (Patrick
more or less hinted it shouldn't be the case, but I'd like to know)

I'm really looking forward to this. On the overall point of breaking the
interview standard we have, I'd like to say a huge "Thank you". The points
you've made in your blog post really resonate with what I can see (the
interview process is a joke if you want to hire actual programming engineers).
I really hope we can move towards a model where applicants can show skills
through a portfolio, of which Starfighter should be a part if I understand
things correctly.

~~~
Sukotto
If you haven't seen it before, check out
[https://projecteuler.net/](https://projecteuler.net/) which is a series of
(very) loosely connected programming challenges.

The challenges start mostly bite-sized and typical programming problems (think
fizzbuzz or "what is the 100th prime") and grow into some really interesting
areas. You use whatever language(s) you wish, with no time limit, and are free
to skip around to whichever questions interest you (or just do them in
order... whatever you like)

I find it fun. You might too.

~~~
cdr
Euler is more like math problems that can be solved with programming than
programming challenges. Very neat, but decreasingly useful for programming
practice past the first 20ish.

~~~
ErrantX
I always ask for the easier Project Euler tests (or give them a couple) to do;
the reason they are good test (IMO) is that they are too small a task to
leverage frameworks and can demonstrate things like good approaches to
engineering and programming practice (even if the questions are mathematical)

~~~
btilly
It is possible to demonstrate good approaches to engineering with your
solution. But if you're cranking out PE problems, you really are better off
just throwing out a bunch of one-off unmaintainable scripts. It is a good test
of math and cleverness. It is not a good exercise for maintainable software.

See [http://bentilly.blogspot.com/2010/01/solving-project-
euler-p...](http://bentilly.blogspot.com/2010/01/solving-project-euler-
problems.html) as evidence that I am not just talking out of my ass about PE.

------
japesinator
I’m curious as to how much this will select for people with free time. Many of
the CTFs I’ve played in required a quite non-trivial amount of investment of
time (which I didn’t mind, as they’ve been quite enjoyable), but there are
certainly people who can’t afford n dozen hours to solve problems due to
family/work/other obligations.

I do think this is significantly better than the alternative, but I’m also
concerned that it will just create a new class of people who do unfairly
poorly in the hiring process.

~~~
patio11
We'll try to make Starfighter maximally useful for casting as wide a net as
possible in the candidate pool, including folks who have demanding
career/family/etc situations. I'm an ex-salaryman, believe me, I know the
frustration.

That said, the perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good here. The hiring
process as it exists on March 9th 2015 is _already insanely hostile_ to people
who don't have scheduling flexibility to invest _hundreds of hours_ to doing
speculative work. "Hey, could you fly to a different continent for 3 days to
do six rounds of in-person interviews?" is considered an attractive,
reasonable proposition.

We can extract more signal than that gauntlet gives, in substantially less
time, delivered in the candidate's own space and at their own pace. This is an
unambiguous win for candidates with commitments.

~~~
jasonlotito
How do you ensure people won't be required to still fly out for 3 days of
interviews? How do you prevent this from being just another filter before the
"real" interview begins?

~~~
newobj
Where is this hyperbole of 3 days of interviews coming from? Sure, someone had
that experience. 99% of people don't.

Anyway, I'm happy to spend lots of time meeting and mingling with my future
team and employer. Most people good enough to surpass these CTF's are going to
be using the in-house interview time to be in the driver's seat of reverse-
assessing their potential employer, realistically.

The interview for my newest job was spread out over two half-days (my choice
versus one full-time day). I came back to visit and talk with people _three_
times after I finished my interview and had an offer extended. My choice. I
needed to really feel the culture. And ultimately that's what caused me to
join the company.

~~~
dsr_
I had 24 hours of interviews at a company in Massachusetts, and then they
decided to start negotiating salary. I told them what my last job had paid,
and then they stopped talking to me.

I'm glad it didn't go further.

------
jameshart
One of the conventional complaints against CS-algorithm-heavy interviewing is
that companies ask all these tough questions about distributed cache latency
in red-black tree optimizations, then once they hire people, they're just
bashing out PHP and MySQL. How do you make sure that the companies hiring your
services have challenges that live up to the skills you're selecting for?

~~~
patio11
I've got nothing against CRUD apps, because they make the world go round, but
it is unlikely that Starfighter will choose to send our candidates to firms
making CRUD apps. The difference will be fairly obvious when you see our
client roster. We're geeks with good taste for the kind of jobs a geek would
actually want to have.

(Sorry for being coy here. Don't want to jinx contract signing.)

~~~
staunch
The problem is that the great hackers are already inundated with unattractive
job offers. Offers that seem very attractive to people who are not them.

If you had a deal with Google/Apple/Dropbox/NSA that said "If we find someone
who can complete this challenge, you agree you hire them at $500k/year + $100k
signing bonus doing work on Skunkworks Project X" you would have an incredible
flow of hackers.

No one has created a marketplace for world class experts and yet these
positions and people exist.

Congratulations on launching and good luck!

~~~
patio11
_The problem is that the great hackers are already inundated with unattractive
job offers._

This is true for a subset of great hackers who are conveniently visible to the
tech industry's antiquated, inefficient, insane, and exclusionary hiring
practices. It is very much not true for many very talented engineers in the
world.

We're going to arbitrage that inefficiency to zero.

------
bearclough
Wonderful, let me add this to the list of things I need to do in my spare time
to remain a hire-able resource .... GitHub, Meetups, reading hacker news,
preparing for puzzle interviews, , HackerRank, conquering a CTF. Jeez, can we
say dance monkey dance.

~~~
tptacek
What are some things you'd worry about a company like this doing that would
increase dance-monkey-dance factor?

What are some things a company like this could do to decrease dance-monkey-
dance factor?

We're not interested in making monkeys dance, unless they want to, and enjoy
it.

~~~
bearclough
Sorry, I think I'm a bit of a cynic and a bit burned out. There seems to be at
least an expectation in the tech industry of having to maintain certain after
hours activities to make one self marketable. Personally having a 50+ hour a
week day job + side projects + studying + leveling up in order to find new
employment is exhausting .... I'm just concerned adding another implied
responsibility to a candidates plate seems overwhelming.

But, if someone loves to play CTFs and is seeking employment than its a great
match. Me personally I'm a build things I want to see in the world and the job
will come ... kind of person.

~~~
larrys
"expectation in the tech industry of having to maintain certain after hours
activities to make one self marketable"

On hacker news you are getting a very small slice of the tech industry. And by
reading HN you are subjected to repeated attempts to make you think there is a
clear way to be marketable and to earn a living. Rest assured that there are
people in tech that the HN crowd makes fun of that are earning fine livings
and enjoying their jobs.

~~~
dsp1234
I work in a beautiful non-SV city, earn six figures, and enjoy my job. I am a
Classic ASP developer.

------
marssaxman
I find this announcement fascinatingly incomprehensible; it clearly emerges
from a slice of the software universe quite distant from mine. The use of the
acronym "CTF" suggests that the authors are very familiar with this genre of
game; but how exactly does it work? What does it have to do with programming?
I guess they are making programming into a game (?) and this somehow has
something to do with hiring?

~~~
patio11
A CTF is a game that one plays by programming. I wish I could point you to
competing CTFs that you can sign up and play right now, but most disappear
from the Internet because they are fiendishly difficult to keep running. Ask
me (or any team that has shipped one) why if you're curious.

One example would be MicroCorruption.
[https://microcorruption.com](https://microcorruption.com) Thomas and Erin
helped build it back when they were still at Matasano. It's a hybrid of a game
-- there's a narrative, flavor text, a progression of difficulty, levels, a
leaderboard, etc -- and a programming assignment. The programming assignment
happens to be some variant of "Here's assembly code; find an input which
exploits the vulnerability we planted in it."

Starfighter CTFs will similarly be a game that one plays by programming.
Similarities end there. We can do _very_ interesting things with this.

~~~
bmelton
So, for those of us who fit your archetype, that mostly build web apps in
high-level languages like Python, haven't touched Assembly in a decade, but
_do not_ have a team of seasoned hackers hanging out with us in our living
rooms, what are the odds that we're going to be able to use it to refine our
skills in isolation?

I fully understand that if your company is looking for pen testers, I'm not
the guy you'd hire. That's cool, but since one of the aims is developing and
refining skill, how approachable is it intended to be?

~~~
javajosh
This game is not for people who like you (or me) don't have much interest in
assembly, systems programming or pen testing. (This group includes, by the
way, a large group of very talented programmers who've shipped most of the
software the world uses).

It is troubling that the language they use on the site implies that systems
and security programming is what _all programmers aspire to do_ , but that's
just an unfortunate bias on the part of the authors. Personally, I think
they'd do well to change it, but perhaps that's exactly how they feel and
exactly the kind of messaging they need to attract the right people.

~~~
everyone
I find this to be an issue with many of the articles linked on this site. They
refer to 'hackers' or 'programmers' .It usually means people doing some sort
of web app, or related thing, and it usually doesnt apply to me at all though
I know I'm a very good programmer. I make games.

I have a background in architecture, its a mature industry and there are
architects, structural engineers, mechanical and electrical engineers,
architectural technologists, quantity surveyors, project managers etc.

Perhaps as coding as a job matures over the decades this process will also
take place.

------
icco
I get what they're trying to do, but did this read like a rant from a crazy
person to anyone else?

Just the first header block read like they were creating some kind of
videogame company... and then finally at the bottom of that text block, "Oh,
it has something to do with interviews..." and then halfway down the next
section, "oh, it's that kind of CTF".

Anyway, seems cool if they can make applying for jobs more interesting.

~~~
marssaxman
Entirely insane, yes! After reading this article, I have no real idea what
they are doing, but it appears that they are related to an entire genre of
games I didn't know about.

~~~
001spartan
I think it's primarily written to a different audience than yourself, then. I
mean that in the best of ways. As an infosec sort, it came across pretty
clearly what they intended. I think it's just a culture difference between
information security, and the rest of IT.

~~~
marssaxman
Ah, infosec. Yes, it was clear that it came from some other part of the
computer universe, but I had no idea which one.

~~~
001spartan
Yeah, for us (infosec) hackers it can be easy to forget there are people in IT
who don't understand our culture/terminology sometimes.

------
davidw
> We’re not here to fix the technical interview: we’re here to destroy it, and
> create something new and better in its place.

That sounds pretty bold - some of us are kind of happy to go in and do an
interview and talk about our experience and not spend a lot of time playing a
game. I could see the game as more likely to work for people with lots of time
and not as much experience or proficiency with the typical process. I could
see it working very well indeed to find people who might otherwise have been
ignored.

In any event, it sounds cool, and I wish you guys the best of luck with it!

~~~
tptacek
If the only reason you'd mess around with Starfighter is to get a job, we've
done something wrong. This isn't one of those sites where you solve discrete
programming puzzles for badges, or in lieu of a whiteboard interview.

~~~
davidw
> If the only reason you'd mess around with Starfighter is to get a job, we've
> done something wrong

That was just my first impression.

At my age, I kind of know how I stack up: I've met really awesome people like
Andrew Tridgell and... I'm not one of them. So I don't feel like I have
anything to prove, and I much prefer to hack on open source (
[http://journal.dedasys.com/2014/04/27/an-erlang-postgres-
dri...](http://journal.dedasys.com/2014/04/27/an-erlang-postgres-driver-
refurbishing-open-source/) ) or side projects where I make and create
something rather than playing a game. So I really don't think I'd use it
unless I had to as part of a job process. I don't think that's where you're
going with it though; it's more of a way to attract interesting people who
might otherwise not get noticed, right?

So I'm "not your target market", which is of course natural and to be
expected. I think it's a great way to find people who might otherwise slip
through the cracks, and have the time and inclination for puzzles.

~~~
tptacek
We've been talking to people for a few months now about this and have heard
that concern repeatedly. We're working on designing and releasing something
that rewards competition for the kinds of people for whom that's a motivator,
and rewards tinkering for the kinds of people who enjoy tinkering.

I'm the Dwarf Fortress kind of game player, when I ever play games, if that
gives you a sense of the direction I'm pulling us.

If Starfighter is only rewarding to people like Andrew Tridgell, we've done
something very wrong; count on us to adjust course quickly if that happens.

------
losvedir
Very cool! Signed up for an invite.

Couple questions:

1) Is this a Stripe-like CTF that happens over some caffeine-fueled weekend?
Or is it more of an ongoing Project Euler-style drop-in-and-solve type
process? I don't think I could handle the former, but the latter sounds quite
enjoyable and something I might do in my free time just to learn. I did that
with PE for a while since it was fun to earn completion points.

2) You mention "Let's Play" style videos. How do you make it so that the
solutions aren't given away? Does each player have a customized CTF somehow?

~~~
patio11
I loved the Stripe CTF. We're not going to adopt the time-boxed model from
them. Starfighter : our CTFs :: Blizzard :: Blizzard games. There's no reason
for us to ever turn them off. We'll likely have a particular flagship property
but we have the option of dropping a new game on the market any time we want.

You don't have to rush through Starfighter games. Some people will, of course,
just like there is a metagame to be the first guild on the server to complete
a new raid. Players are gonna play. But if you want to pick up our CTF a year
after release and just casually spend a few hours learning a new skill, you'll
be able to do that, and we'll fully support you in it.

 _How do you make it so that the solutions aren 't given away?_

The same way you do it with math problems. Mastery of the subject material is
the easiest cheat code.

~~~
MichaelGG
>The same way you do it with math problems. Mastery of the subject material is
the easiest cheat code.

Elaborate? Math questions are the opposite of a good example, aren't they?
Even with randomized values it's fairly easy to write generic solutions.
People do this even for Project Euler. How much more so for something even
cooler sounding?

(I'm very excited to see this project and it sounds like a lot of fun. I'd
just be worried that it would end up being gamed, since the drive for cheating
is so strong everywhere.)

~~~
tptacek
I actually hope this happens, and that there's a community of code sharing
that forms around it.

~~~
MichaelGG
Wouldn't that just make cheating easier, then? I'm sure you have this sorted
out somehow, it just seems like a rather large unaddressed question.

~~~
dlss
The complexity of the problem solver generally increases faster than the
complexity of the problem generator.

For example, a general solver for "what is #{x} + #{y}?" is relatively easy. A
general solver for "what is the derivative of
#{random_equasion_with_diffuculty(3)}?" requires a full computer algebra
system. Take one more step into advanced mathematics, and things get more dicy
-- automated theorem provers, for example, require human guiding and hints.

------
jCanvas
I am surprised that Patrick is moving onto yet a different project.

After leaving his job he works as a freelance online marketing expert. Then
quits that despite implying making a lot of money. Instead wants to create
online marketing courses to reach bigger audience, but takes forever to
produce any content and is now abandoning that track. Creates
AppointmentReminder with some good initial success but reading between the
lines that is going to be sold/abandoned as well.

Now moving onto yet another project. Seems you have created several great
opportunities for yourself but cannot stick and focus on any one thing?

------
kasey_junk
I am curious about a biz dev kind of thing, and it may be entirely too early
to answer, but here goes:

"Contingent recruiting" has an extremely negative connotation to me. Quite
literally, I have to constrain my bias when designing hiring pipelines to not
throw recruiter backed resumes away. I understand that you are only taking the
payment model, and are trying to undermine the business model, but have you
run into any problems associating with the industry?

Or, more interestingly, have you encountered anyone on the consumer side (HR,
C-Suite management, etc) that has pointed out a non-obvious advantage to
typical contingent recruiting. I for one would love to hear why companies keep
going back to that obviously terrible well.

I'm excited to see what comes of this.

------
agentultra
Another attempt to apply data analysis to produce a concrete number that
represents the merits and talents of a fellow human being.

How utterly irrational.

It's ideas like this that make me question why I bother being a programmer for
anything more than leisure these days... except that I have no idea what else
I could do to keep a roof over my family's head this late in my life.

You call yourselves, "engineers," but I've yet to work for any company that
treated you like one or even invested in your future. You're offered a salary
well above average for most working adults. They lure you with frivolous perks
and stock options. They never send you to school for training, offer you a
pension to keep you secure in your golden years, and I've never seen any
unions you could join to demand these things from your employers. Your career
is probably not going to be on the line if you merge a patch that degrades
performance or introduces a timing error. But don't think they'll care about
you when it comes to the bottom line. Someone else seeks to profit off of your
talents and abilities and nothing else. If they can hire someone to automate
you away, they will.

And we're all the poorer for it I think.

~~~
tptacek
If you could tell us how to apply data analysis to produce a concrete number
that represents the merits and talents of a fellow human being, I would love
to hear it; it would make my job a lot easier. I didn't know that was
possible. Is this some kind of linear algebra-y machine learning sort of
thing?

~~~
yummyfajitas
Most likely it is possible. Take this "Alex" you frequently speak highly of.
If you gave Alex a different work sample test, do you believe he'd have done
poorly on it? If not, then there is some common factor (call it H) both tests
are measuring.

(I can confidently state that you do believe he would have performed similarly
on a different test - if he didn't, this whole idea would be fundamentally
invalid.)

Now the important question is to determine, for any particular subtest, how
closely a person's score correlates with the hidden factor H. This is, for
example, how IQ tests are created. You can take a look at the literature
surrounding them. Key starting points would be principal component analysis,
clustering, hidden markov models and the like.

There is no simple recipe - every data analysis problem is different in it's
own way. But there are general themes. I'm happy to discuss in more detail,
feel free to write to me if you are interested.

~~~
kylebrown
IME, IQ tests (like other standardized tests, SAT's, GRE's etc) are easily
gamed. I did a couple practice ones and my score jumped up by 20+ points the
second time. Where is the evidence that it measures some hidden factor? Seems
to me that (like other standardized tests) it simply measures the subject's
level of training and preparation.

~~~
barry-cotter
It depends which test is used and there are limits in magnitude to practice
effects, i.e. you can't coach anyone to a perfect score in a test with a large
bank of test questions. Psychometricians are aware of these critiques. Tests
like the SAT, GRE, GMAT etc., lightly disguised IQ tests all, are useful for
predicting academic performance among other things.

>Effects of practice on the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale-IV across 3- and
6-month intervals. Estevis E1, Basso MR, Combs D.

A total of 54 participants (age M = 20.9; education M = 14.9; initial Full
Scale IQ M = 111.6) were administered the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale-
Fourth Edition (WAIS-IV) at baseline and again either 3 or 6 months later.
Scores on the Full Scale IQ, Verbal Comprehension, Working Memory, Perceptual
Reasoning, Processing Speed, and General Ability Indices improved
approximately 7, 5, 4, 5, 9, and 6 points, respectively, and increases were
similar regardless of whether the re-examination occurred over 3- or 6-month
intervals.

> Practice Effects for the Stanford–Binet Intelligence Scales The Stanford-
> Binet Intelligence Scales—Fifth Edition (SB5) is a widely used assessment
> tool for measuring intelligence (Roid, 2003). According to Roid, a key
> advantage of this intelligence test’s most recent revision is that it
> includes improved lowend items for better measurement of young children or
> adults having mental retardation. Sbordone, Saul, and Purisch (2007) report
> that the range of the SB5 was expanded to allow the assessment of very low
> and very high levels of cognitive ability. Roid and Barram (2004) indicate
> that the practice effects on the SB5 were smaller than expected. For
> example, the nonverbal IQ of the SB5 showed shifts of only 2 to 5 points as
> compared to the 4 to 13 points on the Performance IQ of the Wechsler scales
> (i.e., the WAIS-III and WISC-III). Roid and Barram add that the lower shift,
> and thus practice effect, is even more notable given that the retest period
> for the SB5 was 5 to 8 days versus 23 to 35 days on average for the Wechsler
> scales.

------
EliRivers
Maybe it's a British thing, but the breathless enthusiasm starts to seem a
little weird by about halfway down the page.

------
mathattack
Hidden in the article is a real gem:

 _The science of hiring practices is settled: work-sample tests are the most
effective way to assess skill in potential hires._

This is one of the most obvious, yet under-applied truisms in hiring.

If they can apply Starfighter beyond Games, or enable non-Game skills to shine
while working on Games, it will be industry changing.

~~~
fixxer
Makes me miss prop trading, where a tax return basically settled it. Now, job
hunting ruins a weekend.

------
elliotec
>Unfortunately, the technology industry is fundamentally unserious as to how
it presently identifies and employs engineers.

Ok, so lets replace whiteboarding ancient algorithms and useless trick
questions with a capture the flag game!! That'll make the industry seem less
"unserious."

This is so unfathomably ridiculous. I can't believe you're marketing this as
an interview replacement. If I get asked what my "Starfighter score" is before
a job interview, I will be running as fast as I can in the other direction
before they finish their sentence.

There will be people who become great at this game, and if (god help us) this
gains momentum, they will get jobs.

I can only hope the rest who are developing applications and actually writing
programs will come out on top, and employers will recognize that some people
want to build things and not just improve their ranking in a game.

~~~
tptacek
Nobody is going to ask you what your "Starfighter score" is.

Without opening up a pointless vein of second-guessing about Patrick's
writing: I think the timing of this post has led people to believe that _this
right here_ is my answer to The Hiring Post.

No. The Hiring Post itself contains what I believe the answers to The Hiring
Post are.

There are two halves of the recruiting problem: OUTREACH and QUALIFICATION.

Companies need to be smarter about qualification. We have a lot of thoughts on
how they can be smarter and I am in full-on insane street preacher mode about
those thoughts, which are not directly remunerative to our business.

Starfighter is about the OUTREACH side of the recruiting problem. Our goal is
to be a credible pipeline of candidates who are not effectively identified by
the resume/interview/github process. We are looking for buried talent, and to
have fun doing it along the way.

I know HN all too well, and I think the instinct people will have reading this
comment is to try to reconcile it with exactly the words Patrick chose to use
in his blog post and then object to the perceived discrepancies. Please, no:
that's a waste of all our time. Patrick speaks for Erin & I. I speak for Erin
& Patrick.

~~~
elliotec
Thanks for your well thought reply to my regrettably snarky comment. I agree
with you on many points, particularly how companies need to be smarter about
qualification.

But yes, this post does seem to directly correlate, in timing and in content,
to Patrick's Hiring Post. I'm surprised to see you say this is not your
response to that, especially considering that it addresses many of the
questions we should ask ourselves as outlined in The Hiring Post (namely
consistency, data, and the idea of one being a “natural”).

Also the post itself is linked in the statement:

>We’re not here to fix the technical interview: we’re here to destroy it, and
create something new and better in its place.

I disagree with the fact that outreach is a problem in recruiting. There is an
entire industry of companies and teams created for the very purpose of
reaching out to software developers for their skills. How many of us reading
this thread get multiple recruiter emails a week?

Are the recruiters effective? Maybe or maybe not, but I (who am apparently one
of seemingly only few) just don't feel that a competitive game needs to add
itself as another middleman in the realm of software recruiting with the
intent of "destroying the technical interview."

------
ChargingWookie
Awesome, I've been waiting for something like this

That being said, I've got a couple questions

Will all the CTFs be security focused?

One of the most common problems coursera ran into was people copying the
assignments of other people. How do you intend to prevent copying for the
CTFs? I see that you mentioned you're not going to DMCA tutorials or Let's
Plays and instead track their every iteration on the code. I guess you can get
rid of outright copying that way but I'd love to hear your other strategies.

Other than that this seems like a really interesting way to do recruiting. I
can't wait to see the actual CTFs.

Also you've got a tiny typo in the WHY IS STARFIGHTER THE RIGHT TEAM FOR THIS?
section: "I have a folder in Gmail saving messages from geeks who used by
career advice or salary negotiation tips to their advantage." I think the by
should be my

------
otakucode
I'm sure you've got your own ideas for your CTFs, but if you haven't heard of
them before I would recommend you check out the Matasano Crypto Challenges
(cryptopals.com). They ran them privately for awhile, you just emailed them
and said you wanted in and they sent you the challenges, once you emailed the
answers for one batch they gave you another, etc. I've tried various 'code
gaming' things before, and the Matasano challenges were, in my opinion, the
best ones I've come across. (I am exempting things like Stepic's
bioinformatics challenges since their main goal is to expand your knowledge of
bioinformatics rather than of programming, though they do get into some
advanced data structures later on)

~~~
tptacek
We wrote the Matasano Crypto Challenges.

Besides cryptography, what are some other programming problem domains you'd
enjoy playing with? We're particularly interested in problem domains that are
hard for ordinary programmers to pick up on a whim. We want to make it
possible to seriously engage with interesting problems while in your couch
with the Daily Show running in the background.

~~~
nulltype
I guess what sort of domains do people like to play around with in their own
time? For games there's 3d rendering, physics and AI which seem fun (at least
to me) but I'm not sure how to necessarily make fun challenges out of them.

For non-direct-games things fancier AI like deep learning, audio synthesis,
making compilers/parsers/transpilers, math stuff like project euler,
puzzle/board game solvers/bots
([https://gist.github.com/christopherhesse/51e9baf0e3d440d8aff...](https://gist.github.com/christopherhesse/51e9baf0e3d440d8afff))
come to mind.

Some of the stuff in the 3rd stripe CTF was pretty interesting like making a
search engine or dealing with distributed system consensus problems (raft).

Maybe using the coolest new framework is fun for some people, like a challenge
could involve angular.js so you could get some experience using it without
having to go full-on side project or put it in at work without having any real
idea if you should.

Implementing things that you are familiar with but that you don't understand
the internals of has been fun for me in the past (for instance like
[https://www.mikeash.com/pyblog/friday-qa-2015-02-20-lets-
bui...](https://www.mikeash.com/pyblog/friday-qa-2015-02-20-lets-build-
synchronized.html)). Maybe you always wondered how this thing works, and now
you can figure it out and solve this challenge at the same time.

------
chipsy
Sounds very competitive, achiever-focused. Do all organizations want
programmers who are viciously determined to win? Does that lead to society-
efficient solutions?

(To elaborate a little, Richard Bartle noticed four types of players of MUD.
Achievers are just one.)

~~~
splawn
IIRC, The three other types are Explorers, Socialites, and Griefers

~~~
dsp1234
The 4th is killers, not griefers. Killers prefer playing specifically against
other players. Killers are generallyl looking for the challenge/reward of
fighting and winning against other players, rather than necessarily trying to
grief someone. Though obviously getting killed in PVP can sometimes feel like
griefing.

------
gsaines
Very cool guys. As a long time HN reader, I have a lot of respect for what you
guys are doing. I also spent the last two years of my life building
CodeCombat, which started life with a very similar mission ("a game that finds
developer hiring leads"). We were YC W14 and roundly failed at that business
model. I just sent Patrick an email at his Kalzumeus email, but I'd be happy
to chat with you guys about we learned and potentially connect you to others
who can help you avoid the most common mistakes. My email is in my profile.

------
alain94040
Hum, Thomas and Patrick working together... That by itself is worth keeping an
eye on.

I didn't do so well on the microcorruption game. I'm curious to see what else
they can come up with, hopefully both less specialized, more generic, but also
more advanced...

------
bayesianhorse
May be interesting. But the claims made in the announcement are very hard to
believe. The admission of not being ready to show that the claims have been
achieved aren't helping my scepticism either.

Still... if it works, and is actually better than most other attempts at code-
gaming this may be fun. Profitable? They will have to see.

~~~
tptacek
The origin story of this company is the application of exactly this process in
a real business, to great effect.

~~~
mbesto
But it worked in a very specific context (security) and a specific company
(Matasano), no? I know Stripe has done these CTFs in the past (and mostly
security related), but they only spin them up on occasion. If the promise of
such a technique is so effective, then why wouldn't Stripe invest the money
(they've got plenty, let's be honest) in doing this all of the time?
Especially given that a recruiter who would place someone at Stripe is
probably taking home $20-40k on a placement.

Also, what are the plans outside of security related (if any)? Can you do a
CTF style process for non-security?

~~~
kasey_junk
The answer to the "why hasn't stripe done this" question is simple. They
aren't in the business of doing it. You might as well ask why stripe doesn't
sell database systems. I mean, they probably have some expertise in building
those out as well.

Stripe is going to hire a couple of hundred developers over the next decade
(assuming things go well). It sounds to me like Starfighter's goals don't
translate to a couple of hundred X 20-40k. They seem a touch more ambitious.

------
rfrey
I'm not looking for a job and am unlikely to be, hopefully ever again.

Will this be structured so I can use it as a proxy for a programming mentor? I
think it would be awesome as a replacement for MOOCs, which I enjoy but find
inefficient for the time invested. Books are efficient but not as much fun.

~~~
juliob
You might want to check out
[http://www.freecodecamp.com/](http://www.freecodecamp.com/) . I think they do
pair programming

------
apu
You might want to talk about the diversity benefits of this approach. In
particular, it would be attractive to lots of companies if you can make a
credible case for this attracting traditionally hard-to-reach demographics,
and then of course assessing them more fairly.

------
lifeisstillgood
I get that this is work sample testing - but it seems to be for an extremely
limited work sample.

Most / much of the success of a valuable developer is not in their specific
technical talent, but in areas like expounding a vision, documenting, running
a team, navigating politics and fund raising. (Bit vague here I admit,
personal experience of success is problem for me)

Patio11 made a name for himself saying "tech is a necessary but not sufficient
condition for business success - now learn about basic marketing"

Something similar seems to be applied here - how can a CTF program ever handle
politics or investor problems or documentation issues.

Getting good technical capable people is important - but not sufficient.

Will be interested in seeing the CTF program however ... Good luck.

~~~
thedufer
> expounding a vision, documenting, running a team, navigating politics and
> fund raising

It sounds like you're mistaking "developer" for "tech startup founder".
Someone looking for a developer needs at most 2 of those skills (documenting
for sure, navigating politics in an organization full of bureaucracy).

------
fsniper
This whole interview process is broken. Even with this mind of ctf game, one
should not be expected to race through peers with different kinds of tools.

Developers are expected to build resumes at work via daily routines, then at
home via github, hackerrank, side projects. System administrators are expected
to do daily system administration routine, know OSes, tools, cloud/iaas/paas
providers inside out and code side projects and build a coding portfolio.

With years of experience, one expects to be respected and not lose time on
games, tests, unwanted side projects. Interview process is built towards young
gals/guys.

~~~
tptacek
What race/competition dynamics we are going to have are for the benefit of the
participants. Microcorruption has been running for over a year; the first
finisher finished a few days after we released it. I'd have paid very close
attention to someone who finished Microcorruption yesterday, if I was still
hiring for Matasano.

~~~
fsniper
I understand what you are trying to do, but that's another competition in the
roots. We already have too many.

GitHub, BitBucket, HackerRank, TrueAbility, Certifications, Education, Jobs.
It's becoming of a norm that if someone puts more personal time to show off,
they are better engineers. Also that's another wrong position in IT. You can
not have personal life. I do not want to be a marketeer, I'm an engineer.

If you ever ask any of us around here, perhaps most will tell you a scary
story about the competition and the time constraints the competition brings on
people.

Eventually with every racing/gaming/ranking tool out there it's becoming to be
harder to get a good position in IT without investing in more and more
personal time.

~~~
kasey_junk
I suspect that the Starfighter crew's answer around this is twofold:

1) Of course there will always be other ways to get technical work. You
needn't feel compelled to use their product unless you think the time input is
worth the reward.

2) If they haven't made the process _fun_ , that is something you want to
spend your valuable free time on, they have failed (at least in acquiring you
as a product).

~~~
fsniper
Perhaps you are right about the answer. But It is still another knot on the
rope.

The next company expecting me do some obscure online automated coding test
will need to pair me with an engineer inside.

~~~
tptacek
That's not how this works. We don't host challenges for other companies. We're
an outreach project. It costs companies money to find people through us;
skipping us and going right to employers saves them money. I don't expect many
employers to ask candidates to go to us to make them more expensive.

And, by the way, if you don't have a great resume and you're looking to work
in a field directly related to the CTF we're running: making you more
expensive is exactly what we're going to do. :)

~~~
fsniper
So will there be profile scores? Will any company or person able to see how a
participant is doing in StarFighter? If it is so, companies will use it as a
differentiating factor in the hiring process. And that's what I'm talking
about.

By the way nowadays shiny resumes are not considered relevant. It's the bottom
line of screening. I have a great resume in my country and I am expensive
here. But it would not matter for any SF startup.

~~~
tptacek
No, performance and participant identities will be public only to the extent
participants want them to be. Again back to our incentives: it does not in
fact work to our benefit for any random employer in the world to be able to
query our site to qualify a candidate. Those companies are free-riding off our
work. :)

We need participants to make the game fun (for all of us). We can't do things
that make participants wary of us.

This is fuzzy because I didn't let Patrick write about what the game was
(that's entirely we're-about-to-ship-itis). It'll be less fuzzy soon.

~~~
fsniper
Thank you.

I may seem to be against StarFighter, but no. I'm not. Actually I'm on the
mailing list and waiting for the service to be offered. But I am not fully
sure that I will be a good contender. I have not been a good gamer for a long
long time.

I believe you fully understand my concerns. It's about the interviewing
process, not the tools. Every tool has it's uses and quirks and every
institution may use the tools in different ways, intended or unintended.

~~~
tptacek
I really hope everyone doesn't feel like they have to be a "contender". It's
not a competition to get our attention. It's much simpler: we have a basket of
skills and concepts we want to let people play with. For people who engage
with that stuff and find they really enjoy it and latch onto it, we happen to
believe we'd have good ideas on how to match those people with jobs. That's
it!

This "best of the best" stuff was meant to be empowering, but in a lot of ways
it didn't come off that way.

I described our goals a little clearer here:

[http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2yhcqn/were_not...](http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2yhcqn/were_not_here_to_fix_the_technical_interview_were/cpafpkb)

------
idibidiart
How about a game to discover and formally describe new problems? The ability
to find new problems is just as important if not more important than the
ability to solve already known problems (especially those that have been
solved by others) Obviously, the ability to do both (find new problems and
solve them) is the most important of all. Focusing on solving known problems
is NOT that interesting... Can you imagine building an environment that allows
programmers to discover and formally describe absolutely novel problems in
computer science? Just curious.

------
tomjakubowski
Exciting stuff! It's ambitious but with the talented team behind it I'm
confident they can pull it off.

> We come here not to serve technology recruiters, but instead to replace them
> with a small shell script.

------
akavel
Is there any protection planned against people who would be paid to solve the
puzzles on someone else's behalf, i.e. against cheating by hiring someone to
"train" your account?

------
soneca
Will you (patio11, tptacek, elptacek) apply to YC someday?

That would be uhm... i don't even know the right adjective.

~~~
tomjen3
Honestly they don't seem to be a good fit. I mean they are going to get in, no
issue, but they already know how to run a business (charge more) and they can
pretty easily get access to investors.

The more interesting question is if they will ever end up teaching at YC.

------
lexcorvus
This looks fantastic. One possible wrinkle: I predict that, although top-
performing Starfighters will be a diverse lot, they will lack "diversity". I
hope the Starfighter founders have a plan to push back against the carping
complainers a venture such as this is likely to attract. (My suggestion is to
point out that CTFs are the ultimate expression of "Shut up and show us the
code." [1])

[1]: [http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6642](http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6642)

~~~
bdavisx
I don't understand your point. I've worked with mediocrity far too often in
the programming world, and outright incompetence as well. These kinds of
contests/games are designed to weed that out.

If you're talking about the "winners" having personality issues, then
hopefully that will be caught in the interview process.

Perhaps I'm completely missing your point though.

~~~
neilparikh
I think they were suggesting that the distribution of the top performers might
not be "diverse" (for some meaning of that term), which would lead to
criticism (like how people criticize companies for not having a diverse
workforce, or conferences for not having a diverse speakers list).

------
hodder
I am a beginner programmer, but I am curious what this is all about so I have
signed up. Hopefully I can learn something from this even if I am just am just
a fighter but no star.

------
ebbv
This is neat, but is it really that hard for people to tell who has the skills
they're looking for and who doesn't? Every developer I've interviewed it's
been really obvious to me what they know and what they're bullshitting about.

I guess there's value is all in assembling a pre-qualified pool for employers
to recruit from, though.

But in that way this is kind of like the 2015 version of CNE. Except it's
free, which is good. And hopefully less miserable.

~~~
wglb
If you read [http://sockpuppet.org/blog/2015/03/06/the-hiring-
post/](http://sockpuppet.org/blog/2015/03/06/the-hiring-post/), you will see
that this approach is looking to find folks that were not obviously good, as
you say, but they found someone that is a stellar crypto breaker.

------
scobar
Many on HN, including myself, are very excited about Starfighter. However,
many HN readers are probably already employed or can easily find employment if
they desire. You guys and gal know that maximizing outreach will be critical
to your success. You aim to find buried talent, but that talent must first
know Starfighter exists and understand it well enough to be enticed to try. I
assume you want to both find talent whose ability is not accurately
represented in a typical technical interview, but also those who have aptitude
for these skills but whose resume wouldn't even be considered.

I grew up near a small town surrounded by family farms. I've really enjoyed
manipulating code and finding bugs in games and other software since middle
school, and I suspected I was the only one when I was younger. There were very
few "nerds" at our school who focused on computers, and even those that did
almost never discussed the discovery or exploitation of bugs. Although I
stumbled upon a few communities online that shared my interests, I hadn't
found one that just clicked. I happened upon HN while learning more about
startups, and it was just right for me. I'm grateful I found HN, but I wonder
why it took me so long to find the community I was looking for.

I didn't even know about CTF games until tptacek's recent hiring post, and it
was another "How could I have been oblivious to this awesome thing for so
long?" moment. There are many people who are a great fit for your clients, and
they won't know about Starfighter unless you cast a wide or deep enough net.
How do you plan to address this challenge?

Good luck, and thank you for building this!

------
steakejjs
I actually began working on the exact same thing within the last month or so
in my spare time.

Having competed in the CCDC for 6 years in college, I found it pretty insane
when I saw that employers don't use real hardware during interviews.

Looks like I picked the wrong side project now this team is working on it.
However, interviews are broken enough that there is plenty of room in the
space =]. Can't wait to see what you launch.

~~~
patio11
_interviews are broken enough that there is plenty of room in the space_

Amen.

------
michaf
The next step could be to crowdsource the design of challenges or puzzles.
Like a 'masters tier', where you get special points for designing particularly
clever puzzles. This could help remedy the constant demand for new puzzles due
to writeup contamination.

BTW, I completed microcorruption, foobar and two stripe CTFs. It was lots of
fun and I am really looking forward to Starfighter!

------
ChuckMcM
And then there were four.

This theme (test your coders, don't interview them) is spreading about, I keep
getting spammed by them as a way to "only hire top talent!" its an interesting
proposition and I can't wait to see a bit of history behind it. At the very
least it will weed out people who think they are programmers when they are
not.

~~~
jacquesm
It might employ programmers by people who are not.

------
zedpm
I'm excited; tptacek seems to have put a lot of thought into the hiring
process and approaches to improve it. I'm in.

------
scoj
Congratulations patio11, you sound excited.

I am curious to see how this will work for those like yourself that make CRUD
apps. I didn't go to school for programming, but self-taught. I'm afraid it'd
be over my head?

The best line: We haven’t done any consulting in a while. We will continue
doing no consulting, to the best of our inability.

~~~
joshschreuder
I think that anyone motivated to research and work on these problems, will
likely be a decent hire in most organisations.

Having done other CTFs and puzzles like Matsano / Stripe's, I have found the
research part is quite enjoyable. I have little to no knowledge of crypto but
researching and solving some of the Matsano challenges was extremely
rewarding.

With that said I found the information is pretty thinly spread and it is often
hard to find relevant information to the problem domain, particularly with
regards to crypto, so I hope they include good starting points for problem
research.

------
nsheth17
tptacek: ever heard of Cicada 3301? It's this mysterious group that has
anonymously posted very involved cryptopuzzles. Not clear why, but one theory
has been for recruiting people into intelligence agencies.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicada_3301](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicada_3301)

I love what you're doing but I agree with other commenters that presenting it
as a game to programmers but a recruiting channel to companies might not align
well. What do you do if a lot of your top players aren't interested in getting
a job? There are probably exceptions, but do you think people who are good
enough to beat your CTF have that much trouble getting a job?

~~~
tptacek
\---> VERY YES. <\---

------
djb_hackernews
I'm not sure how this solves the topcoder problem. That problem being is it
attracts only certain kinds of software developers and while it is used as a
recruiting tool it basically changes nothing when it comes to the interview
and hiring process.

Even if you are recruited on topcoder you sometimes still need to submit your
resume to some online resume eater "to get you in the system". And then you go
on the same time wasting interviews as everyone else.

Personally, I don't play games of any sort but I like to write software and
solve puzzles so I find topcoder SRMs more appealing than a programming game,
but I'll definitely check it out.

~~~
tptacek
Topcoder challenges were not at all relevant to the kinds of programming
problems I needed solved, and were not credible enough for me to consider
whether they were predictive.

------
moriara
Don't get me wrong, I would love for the current system to go away, since
every interview I had got me one step closer to an imminent hear attack. But,
I think the most we will get out of Starfighter is that it will become just
another step in the process, MAYBE replacing the phone interview. Nothing is
preventing a group of people from sitting in front of the computer,
collaborating on a solution, there is absolutely no way to catch that. Also,
none of the companies that are most in demand will abandon their dreaded on-
site interview any time soon. It works for them, they need to weed out as many
people as possible.

------
jakobegger
Reminds me of a local company who recruits employees exclusively by organizing
coding contests:
[http://contest.catalysts.cc/en/](http://contest.catalysts.cc/en/)

It works great for them, but I believe you attract a certain kind of
developers with these contests; you attract people who enjoy puzzles, and
people who enjoy measuring their abilities against others. It could be that
those are the traits that make good employees; but I myself would never take
part in such a competition.

Then again, I don't actually want to work for anyone else at all.

------
captn3m0
So, we launched a long running CTF platform a few days back:
[https://backdoor.sdslabs.co](https://backdoor.sdslabs.co). I guess more in
the space is merrier.

My prediction is that Starfighter will become something akin to HackerRank
where companies host their own CTFs to recruit people. While it sounds fine,
making CTF problems is significantly harder than making algo problems. I'm
sure the team is right for this, so it might just work.

I hope they do release some work in the open (such as their sandbox
environment).

------
sergiotapia
What skillset do participants have to have to play this game?

Is it purely security stuff?

~~~
tptacek
Enjoy programming in any language.

Be fearlessly willing to pick up programming in new languages.

No security knowledge is required.

Security is a backdrop for what we're doing, but not the only backdrop; it is
one of two problem domains we're starting out with.

We use security mostly as a venue for systems programming.

~~~
errantspark
This has piqued my interest more than any other similar challenge/game I've
seen in the past.

What's the second problem domain you're starting out with?

I hope it's to do with graphics/parallelized matrix math sort of stuff.

~~~
tptacek
We'll send a reading list out to the subscriber list, sometime soon. It'll be
pretty obvious from that.

------
cheriot
I wonder if the authors are fans of Stargate Universe. The show's premise
involves a key character being identified by success on a puzzle embedded in a
video game.

~~~
binarymax
I presume it is based on the film "The Last Starfighter"
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087597/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087597/)
\- in which a teen perfects an arcade game, and is then selected as a pilot
for the actual spacecraft.

------
hundt
From the blog post it sounds like you primarily plan to be used as a "funnel"
for employers that engage you, where you are like a super-recruiter bringing
candidates that you have qualified yourself.

Do you plan for there to be an option for employers that aren't asking you to
refer candidates to still see some view of the performance of a player? Either
by paying some smaller fee or by allowing players to have public profiles with
some sort of scores?

~~~
tptacek
There is a long-term PVP element to what we're doing, so we want as many
players as we can get. We'll play with a number of different ways of matching
talent to very smart employers, but our #1 overriding dominating design goal
has to be to make players comfortable, so the game works.

------
PanMan
patio11: Why name the company Starfighter, while the domain is
startfighterS(.io)? Why not name the business Startfighters? (I understand the
other domain was taken).

------
olivercreashe
I like this idea, but I also like the one proposed here
[http://ortask.com/a-better-way-to-hire-developers-and-
tester...](http://ortask.com/a-better-way-to-hire-developers-and-testers/)

I fear that starfighter will overlook goood candidates simply because they are
not good at gaming, which makes the second approach by ortask more interesting
and maybe balanced.

------
weaksauce
What do you expect low 700's rank as of now on micro corruption to equate in
the new venture? Salary estimates?

------
sargun
I feel like this is an implementation of my idea here:
[https://medium.com/@sargun/interviews-as-a-service-
dfa6d4a03...](https://medium.com/@sargun/interviews-as-a-service-dfa6d4a03401)
\-- Or at least a competing alternative to traditional interviews.

------
Chirael
Love the concept, can't wait to see it. I don't normally play computer games,
but this sounds intriguing. One minor point: "Alt-tab over to your email and
click the confirm link in the email we just sent you." If you use web-based
email, that's probably Ctrl-tab :)

------
bradleyjg
There's a small typo that caught my eye. In the 'Why is the Starfighter the
Right Team' section, 4th paragraph, 2nd sentence "I have a folder in Gmail
saving messages from geeks who used by career advice or salary negotiation
..." It should be my instead of by.

------
FLUX-YOU
\- Do you think there will be some threshold where people get past a certain
stage and then start getting offers, with nothing being offered below that?
(my only experience is basic OverTheWire challenges, so not sure if this will
have similar progression of 'levels')

\- Is it going to hurt?

~~~
tptacek
Based on my experience with the crypto challenges and Microcorruption: there
will be a _lot_ of players, and _most_ of them will just be there to twiddle
the knobs and see how things work.

There will be a subset of participants for whom it's worth their time and ours
to have a conversation. Our job will be to identify that subset and start that
conversation.

------
Oculus
Will the CTFs be security focused or more non-traditional, like Stripe's
distributed systems CTF?

~~~
patio11
Starfighter is not a security company. We're going to test for a _wide range_
of skill sets. These may include web app security but will not be limited to
that.

You can reasonably assume "What skills does the market want to hire for?" is a
good proxy for what we'll be assessing for. I love security, but that's 0.01%
of the software market. We have... grander ambitions.

------
andrewstuart
This sounds like the sort of thing that teenagers would come up with to
"solve" recruiting.

~~~
tptacek
I'm going to go ahead and take that as a compliment.

~~~
andrewstuart
Yes, that makes sense.

------
sgt
Would like to try this as an employer, particularly targeted towards
developers here in South Africa.

------
jasonswett
Is it targeted to devs looking for full-time work only or will it make sense
for freelancers as well?

~~~
pakled_engineer
If the scores/achievements can be public accessed then you can use it as part
of your portfolio when bidding on contracts.

------
Rami114
Is the second problem domain web perhaps? So people can learn that <script>
tags can not be self-closing, and so they won't break the JS includes so
bootstrap.min.js doesn't load and their burger menu in mobile-view actually
works!

Hint-hint-nudge-nudge

/endOCDpost

------
jorgecastillo
This sounds insanely fun & reading this got me really excited, just subscribed
a moment ago!

------
serve_yay
Wow, what an idea. And I couldn't have more respect for the people who started
it. Nice!

------
dataker
Part of the current interviewing process is Github and side-projects. I truly
understand the reasons for Starfighter, but are you putting any real value
behind it? I like CTF, but it's not quite the same as contributing to open
source projects.

~~~
otakucode
You're quite right that a CTF is not the same as open source projects... and I
thought the point of this was exactly that. People who contribute to open
source projects prove they have a certain set of skills. What if you need
people with a different set? What if instead of being able to learn a large
codebase, it is more important that they are able to look at a problem and
design an algorithm to solve it in the first place? Rarely in an open source
project will you be going in and radically changing the fundamentals.

~~~
dataker
Makes sense. From that angle, we'd even see better contributions.

------
dba7dba
So this site is about helping recruiters narrow down candidates more
effectively by presenting real coding challenges.

I want to point out trueability.com that does same thing with Linux. I find it
a very good and fair source for judging Linux admin candidates.

------
jstoiko
The Last Starfighter is by far the most underrated scifi movie of all time.

------
snarfy
"You will use real technology. You will build real systems. You will face the
real problems faced by the world’s best programmers building the world’s most
important pieces of software. You will conquer those problems. You will prove
yourself equal to the very best. Becoming a top Starfighter player is a direct
path to receiving lucrative job offers from the best tech companies in the
world, because you’ll have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you can do
the work these companies need done."

What an absolute waste of time. You can do all of those things as hobby
projects which are yours and actually do something useful in the world besides
exist as an achievement to be unlocked.

Show your future employer your github, not your starfighter score.

------
SonicSoul
Isn't it about putting in the time ? How would kalzumeus know if candidate is
doing it for the first time vs after 500 hrs of experience. I presume the
latter would have a huge advantage

------
srum
What sort of range of engineers will this be aiming to recruit? Only the very
best (and most expensive)? Or a range including more junior / less well-paid
positions?

------
anigbrowl
This looks very innovative; I hope it's a great success.

------
sfk
So, apart from GitHub, we now have another opportunity for coding slaves to
prove themselves worthy.

Spartacus, open your mouth, I want to see your teeth.

------
Natsu
You buried the lede here: you're selling BCC! Somehow HN won't feel right
without regular updates on BCC's progress.

------
dennisgorelik
Patrick,

What is going to happen with Appointment Reminder now?

~~~
jschulenklopper
The answer is at the bottom of the announcement: "I have no announcement to
make about my involvement with Appointment Reminder at this time. We will,
naturally, continue keeping all commitments to our customers."

~~~
dennisgorelik
Thanks - I just found it myself and came back to edit my question.

That's a non-answer though. Let's see how the answer about the fate of
Appointment Reminder would evolve over time.

In any case, that's an extra proof that being solo-founder while possible - is
a disadvantage.

------
ratsimihah
Is it significantly different from topcoder?

~~~
patio11
Yes. I don't know how to describe how until you've actually played it. You
know how World of Warcraft and Tetris are both games? Starfighter is a game,
too. We're very much not Tetris. Or Topcoder.

------
galois198
The sign up form isn't accepting my email address: _@gmail.com

Edit: rather, (9 characters long) @gmail.com

------
dkarapetyan
This is awesome. Sign me up.

------
bhayden
I wonder if this was inspired in part by the recent Alan Turing movie :)

~~~
cpach
How so?

~~~
bhayden
There's a chuck of the movie where they're recruiting potential code breakers
by putting a difficult puzzle in the newspaper and telling readers if they can
solve it in under 5 minutes to apply to the job. Same sort of premise here.

~~~
cpach
Ah, cool. I haven’t yet seen the movie. Only a few weeks left till the video
release :)

------
nate_mcfeters
Awesome news, best of luck Tom!

------
Sremobeekik
Hello

------
paulhauggis
"You will use real technology. You will build real systems. You will face the
real problems faced by the world’s best programmers building the world’s most
important pieces of software."

I'm wondering, what is your business model? Are the users doing free bug fixes
and work for the employers while they are proving their skills?

~~~
patio11
No sane employer would want free bug fixes. Think of what that would do to
their IP assignment issues alone.

Our business model is explained in the post, under the heading How Will
Starfighter Make Money. Briefly: we'll find the best engineers in the world,
then broker their introduction to companies who want to hire them. Companies
will pay us a substantial amount of money for this service.

