
Apple fires Chinese supplier for using underage workers - rkudeshi
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2013/01/apple-fires-chinese-supplier-for-using-underage-workers/
======
rauljara
So apparently Apple is making good on its promise to look deeper down in the
supply chain. While it sucks for the workers at the plant that they're
probably going to lose their jobs (shitty work is [usually] better than no
work), the jobs aren't actually going away. They're just being shifted to
another factory that now has the knowledge that they too could be fired for
what Westerners consider egregious working conditions.

This is great, and the outcome of putting a lot of vocal and consistent
pressure on Apple to behave in a less inhumane fashion. It's yet another
example that well organized and vocal campaigns can result in meaningful
change. They do take a while, though.

~~~
VMG
> While it sucks for the workers at the plant [..]

> This is great [..]

Aren't these statements contradictory? Isn't the supposed goal to help
underage workers?

~~~
gtr32x
First I would like to say I am not in support of underage workers, I would
never be. However, if we look at the realistic situations in certain parts of
the globe, especially China, sometimes it is not always such a simple
situation that we allow these underage workers to work.

In some far far away frugal rural land, a family is struggling financially.
Their 14 year old son was not able to go to school, neither was there enough
food to be fed to him. The news hit that there's a plant that's openly hiring
workers without age restriction. The seemingly insignificant pay in the
western's eyes will be a huge help to the family's financial in the remote
rural China. After all, it's much better to work at such places than some coal
mine that severely underpays.

Depending on where you are born from, some kids are meant to grow up faster
than others. Some kids just cannot afford a normal education like everybody
else should. It's not a fair world and it never will be. Is it fair for the
kids? No it's not, but what's their best option?

Of course, not all situations are like this, but for situations where underage
workers are actually working, there is a strong trend that this may possibly
be the case. After all, who in the right mind would send their child to work
at such an early age is they don't have to? Who doesn't want to live a good
life? Remember Li Ka-Ching? He started working at a young age of 15 at a watch
shop. See where he is at today?

Once again, I am not saying that education isn't important, I believe it is.
However, under so many unique circumstances, it isn't always the most viable
path one goes through.

I don't support underage workers, this comment isn't meant to bring to justice
to the underage worker hiring practices in China. But it just pains me to see
people generalize that the goal is to 'help' underage workers. The situation
isn't the same in the West, hence why we think like that. It's a well wish and
a prospect to help the country though.

~~~
VMG
Then let me say that I am in support of underage workers.

The idea that preventing children to work in these factories helps the
children is ill-conceived, as you pointed out. If Apple wanted to help these
children, it could have required better working conditions or better pay, but
not letting them work doesn't achieve the goal.

These kids won't just say "alright let's go to school then" when they can't
work anymore.

~~~
yarianluis
Not in the case of firing the company outright but the article clearly
illustrates what happens to the children these companies employ against
contract terms:

>Apple requires its suppliers to return the workers back to a school chosen by
the family and finance their education. "In addition, the children must
continue to receive income matching what they received when they were
employed. We also follow up regularly to ensure that the children remain in
school and that the suppliers continue to uphold their financial commitment,"
wrote Apple in its latest report.

~~~
VMG
Tough luck for those children who didn't already work there.

------
drcube
So I'll be the guy to ask it: What's the problem with underage workers? As
long as it's voluntary, the conditions are okay and the pay is fair, who does
it hurt?

Some societies don't have the luxury of an idle childhood. I don't feel right
telling some family the choices they make in the face of extreme poverty or
starvation might offend my first world sensibilities, so therefore they
shouldn't get to make that choice.

Should we work at fixing the root problems which drive children to work? Yes.
Should we fire them and let them starve in the mean time? I don't think so.

I'm happy about the education and guaranteed income that Apple is demanding,
because it looks like they're trying to fix the actual problem, rather than
just playing a PR game and kicking kids out on the streets.

~~~
DanBC
The problem with underage workers is:

1) Education is a right which far too many people miss out on

2) Children's bodies and brains are still forming and so making them repeat
actions many times per day is intrinsically harmful and the lack of mental
development is similarly harmful

3) Children in factory jobs removes opportunities for adults to do the same
jobs.

4) The pay is rarely "fair"; the conditions are rarely "okay".

You're right that it's better that children earn a bit of cash to help with
family bills. But that would be better done by paying the parents a fair wage.

~~~
ataggart
In a society with significant child labor, it's not clear to me how "just pay
the parents more" is a serious response. When significant child labor exists,
it does so for a reason.

Given that parents would probably prefer their kids get an education instead
of working, it's not clear to me that depriving them of the option to work in
a factory will result in the child going to school. In all likelihood, the
child will continue to work, albeit at their next-best (perhaps illicit)
option; their best option (via revealed preference) having been removed by
enlightened westerners who don't have to face the same constrained set of
choices.

~~~
jimbokun
"When significant child labor exists, it does so for a reason."

The reason is that it is in the interest of wealthy factory owners to keep the
cost of labor as low as possible, just like when child labor was prevalent in
the United States.

~~~
ataggart
Lower costs explain why child labor is in demand, but says nothing about
supply, namely why parents send their children off to work in a factory,
something parents in productive, wealthy economies are unlikely to do.

~~~
DanBC
Which is why it's important to give parents a working wage.

Part of that is strict laws about child labour, to avoid factory owners
exploiting poor people. Creating a level field makes it easier for ethical
employers to follow their ethics.

It would be nice if some of the premium paid for some products in the west was
used to pay poor workers better, or used for health and educational projects.

------
andyakb
"When new violations are found, Apple requires its suppliers to return the
workers back to a school chosen by the family and finance their education. "In
addition, the children must continue to receive income matching what they
received when they were employed. We also follow up regularly to ensure that
the children remain in school and that the suppliers continue to uphold their
financial commitment," wrote Apple in its latest report."

This is a tough problem to solve. Doesnt this provide HUGE incentive to
underage workers to try to get a job and then get caught?

~~~
micampe
isn't also a disincentive to employers to hire children?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Definitely, but fake documents are easily acquired and employment agencies are
very sketchy in the export zones. So fraud exists, and I'm sure apple doesn't
make the distinction between intentional and accidental violations.

------
RexRollman
What is interesting to me is that I don't seem to hear anything about this
where other companies are concerned. Is it a case of me not noticing or is
Apple being singled out?

~~~
brandonsavage
Any time Apple does anything it pretty much gets reported. I imagine most
other major companies don't care or their supply chains are ignored by the
average person. For example, do you know where your television was made, by
what suppliers, and how old they were? Me either.

~~~
atirip
Until Apple starts to make televisions. Then that factory where your telly was
made turns into "Apples factory" and every minor problem there ends up in NY
Times first page. Every time.

------
protomyth
So, will any media outlet actually do the digging and find out which companies
still do business with Guangdong Real Faith Pingzhou Electronics Co?

~~~
barredo
Seems to be a 'small' (<1000 employees) LED manufacturer.

[http://www.gd-
realfaith.com/en/displayproduct.html?proID=100...](http://www.gd-
realfaith.com/en/displayproduct.html?proID=100990419)

> Pingzhou electron becomes the largest global sub-contractor of TDK who is
> the world-famous electronic industry brand

As much as I google I can't find any more names. I searched by the company and
CEO name (Chunxiao Jin) but TDK's the only name mentioned... it must be and
old document because when Asian suppliers work with Apple they tend to
brag/tell everyone, If Apple allows them I think.

~~~
protomyth
So after 1 day of articles, barredo and SoftwareMaven did more investigative
reporting than actual news outlets.

------
ChuckMcM
I am glad that Apple is making progress here, and I find it sad that this is
not being done by the Chinese government.

------
pothibo
That news should make $AAPL drop by 5%. </sarcasm>

There's only positive things that can come out of this. A business leader
taking it's leading position to put pressure on business that violates human
rights.

------
matthiasb
If you missed it, I recommend listening to the following American Life
episodes in consideration on the light shed by this news: 454: Mr. Daisey and
the Apple Factory [http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-
archives/episode/454/m...](http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-
archives/episode/454/mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory) 460: Retraction
[http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-
archives/episode/460/r...](http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-
archives/episode/460/retraction)

------
xenophanes
Apple, which has the highest profit margins, is on a crusade to make labor
less cheap, thus lowering profit margins for everybody, which will hurt their
low margin competitors much more than themselves.

I'm not saying that's their only reason but let's be careful applauding their
altruism and ignoring the business merits of their policy.

BTW, also, if some Apple competitors can only exist because of the _temporary_
cheap labor pool (one day China, India, etc will modernize a lot more. maybe
it will take 50 years but it is temporary), then maybe that says something
interesting about their businesses.

~~~
jimray
It takes a highly developed sense of cynicism to see a transparent effort to
curb child labor as an attempt to hurt their competitors.

Furthermore, Apple has publicly committed to bringing more manufacturing to
the US, which isn't exactly pool of cheap labor.

There are plenty of Apple's business practices worth criticizing. Making a
forthright attempt to end child labor in the third world is not one of them.

------
sunwooz
Now those kids will starve :(

~~~
spatten
"When new violations are found, Apple requires its suppliers to return the
workers back to a school chosen by the family and finance their education. "In
addition, the children must continue to receive income matching what they
received when they were employed. We also follow up regularly to ensure that
the children remain in school and that the suppliers continue to uphold their
financial commitment,"

~~~
speeder
I think this apply to those that remain selling to apple.

The children on the component maker that were dumped, are screwed,

------
brudgers
<Unbridled Cynicism>

<http://www.bing.com/news/search?q=apple+reduces+orders>

</Unbridled Cynicism>

------
richardlblair
Let's not all sit here on our laptops, in our comfortable lives and try to
understand the political complexities of societies where underage labour is
common place.

Let's not pretend to understand, and let's not pretend that we all have some
high moral duty to "protect" these children.

But, while you sip you tripple tall americano while reading forbes magazine
pretending to be an expert on poverty and politics take a second to think a 12
year old boy who just lost his families only source of income, only source of
food, and only source of life. These people live in a society where the cost
of your fucking americano goes a long way.

So stop pretending. Because you have no fucking idea.

~~~
_pmf_
Very sound reasoning. By the very same reasoning, the debate about whether to
abolish slavery (in the US) should still be in full rage. After all, who could
definitely predict whether those poor people would be able to survive without
their masters providing them food and shelter and protecting them from the
harsh reality (with hardly a benefit for themselves)?

But I'm sure you will be able to demonstrate why this is not an appropriate
analogy.

~~~
richardlblair
Enslaving people because of their race in a country that was otherwise
prosperous, and hiring children in an economy and society where any thing else
is nearly impossible are two entirely different things.

~~~
king_jester
Slavery was the primary economic engine for a long, long time in US and its
originating colonies and it was a primary reason for the economic prosperity
and viability of colonies.

I agree with you that they are not the same, but both political and social
wrongs that can and should be addressed (yes slavery still exists in the US,
both de facto and actual i.e. human trafficking).

