
Ask HN: How bad is freelancing? - aframe
My working life changed recently after leaving my last role just before Christmas. I’ve done freelancing on and off for a few years and I just feel like the whole process of freelancing is fragmented and broken.<p>I’ve started digging into the issues others are facing too.<p>I’d be keen to hear what problems others have in this area? I put together a little survey here: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;adamfarah.typeform.com&#x2F;to&#x2F;abznqs
======
rietta
You should avoid being a "freelancer" at all costs. Do not let others use that
term to label you and to downplay your worth and professional service rates.
Create a services company, with a brand, and with a mission. Look at promoting
your company like you would promote a business than had 10x the number of
employees than you actually have. Learn how to budget time and money like
you've never budgeted before. Most importantly do not try to be everything to
everybody.

Learn about positioning - horizontal and vertical markets. A good resource is
[https://philipmorganconsulting.com/the-positioning-manual-
fo...](https://philipmorganconsulting.com/the-positioning-manual-for-
technical-firms/).

He also has a bunch of free video interviews that you can watch
[https://philipmorganconsulting.com/dev-shop-marketing-
briefi...](https://philipmorganconsulting.com/dev-shop-marketing-briefings/).
I was one of the guests, talking about long tail search engine marketing.

And finally, remember that success in this space is a marathon and not a
sprint. You do not have to start out as the fastest, you just have to run
longer than everyone else who drops out. In a few years the fact that you are
still in the market will be seen as social proof of your trustworthiness and
success.

~~~
puranjay
Second this.

Even if you don't incorporate and are uncomfortable presenting yourself as a
brand, never call yourself a "freelancer".

Call yourself a "consultant". I've seen that people take you far more
seriously when you call yourself that as opposed to a "freelancer".

~~~
rietta
I have misgivings about "consultant." In the Metro Atlanta area that almost
universally means a solo person with the possible unstated thought that he/she
is living off his/her spouses income. It's harder to get placed than it is as
a professional services firm. It's a bit different if you are actually doing
high end management consulting. For developers I find clients are looking for
"doers" not "talkers about doing" (which is what consultant implies).

So it really depends on what business and the market that the business is
going for if the "consultant" label is any better than the sub-optimal
"freelancer" label.

~~~
demygale
As a native Atlantan and long time consultant/freelancer, this is not a thing.
No one in my experience has ever characterized a consultant as a freelancer
supported by their spouse.

~~~
rietta
Maybe I'm responding to a more direct personal experience of "so you're just
consulting then". Anyway, this is not a problem I have not overcome in my own
business.

There are some very huge consulting companies in the Atlanta area for sure.
That is a different scale altogether.

------
ekidd
I've worked as a consultant several times in my career, focusing on helping
startups build an MVP and find their market. I've also done one-off projects
for larger businesses, mostly trying to fix a long-standing internal technical
issue and open up new possibilities.

A few tips:

1\. Don't work for people unless you can help them make a lot of money.

2\. Avoid freelancing marketplaces. These tend to have terrible rates, small
projects and some of the worst clients. Most of these clients are beyond help,
and you will never be able to help them earn a lot of money.

3\. Do not charge an hourly rate. You do not want hourly jobs. Charge either a
daily rate, a weekly rate, or a project rate. If you have a good client who
regularly needs small tweaks, charge a monthly retainer instead of an hourly
rate. I'm told that some really smart consultants charge a percentage of the
of the improvement they make for the business.

4\. Require half payment up front, or for longer projects, a milestone-sized
payment up front. This will immediately eliminate all the clients who are
allergic to writing checks, and I've never seen anybody serious reject this.

5\. When setting your daily or weekly rates, plan on charging at least 2x what
you would receive as salary, or up to 3x in some cases. This depends partly on
the average size of your projects. If you charge less than this, your annual
income will wind up much lower than you'd think. You _will_ have lots of
downtime and non-billable hours.

EDIT: 6. This should be obvious, but always write down the project
deliverables and agreed-upon payment, even if it's only in an email for
smaller projects. Even if you totally trust the people you're doing business
with, _they will forget what they agreed to._ (Ideally, you should have a
standard contract where additional work items can be attached as an Exhibit
A.)

Aside from all that, one big challenge is balancing your pipeline. You'll have
2 months of no work, followed 3 simultaneous offers for highly-paid jobs. You
need to find a way to manage this that's fair to the client and sustainable
for you.

~~~
stevage
>Require half payment up front, or for longer projects, a milestone-sized
payment up front. This will immediately eliminate all the clients who are
allergic to writing checks, and I've never seen anybody serious reject this.

The one time I did this that was a mistake was for a university. It was dumb,
and just delayed the whole project by 6 weeks while finance processed it.
There was never any risk of the university not paying, so I shouldn't have
bothered.

~~~
ekidd
Yup. Universities, government agencies and giant multinationals will all pay
according to their standard vendor policies. This may be 3+ months after you
submit the invoice in some cases. But most of these institutions _will_ pay,
so you just have to let them do their thing.

Basically, beyond a certain size, it's more trouble for an organization to
cheat a vendor than it is for them to pay as agreed. Non-payment may require
getting their lawyers involved, pulling in higher management, etc. (This is
based on experience in the US. Things may be different elsewhere.)

------
flurdy
(A bit suspicious of the survey form, seems a bit recruiter bate to me)

I love contracting. But that is my experience. Other roles, areas,
personalities it may not work, and other types of contracting it may be very
different.

Good bits:

\- If you work normal amount you earn a lot more (remember to expense
everything!)

\- Unlimited holidays. I take a normal amount of holidays during contracts,
and then a few months off between contracts though depends on the length of
the contract.

\- No illusion of job security and no guilt if you leave at the end of a
contract. But don't burn bridges or leave a bad impression. You likely will
work for them again, or at least the same people.

\- No need to work late/weekends, you are paid for the work you do, not to
impress for a promotion. .

Bad bits:

\- Pressure to find the next contract. It eases off as you build a bigger
network of past clients and coworkers etc. I'm not concerned about that
anymore but was the first few years.

\- Extra paperwork. I have a near automated online accountant, but I still got
to click the odd approval, and export bank statements, find insurance, sign
contracts etc.

\- Contract recruiters are the worst. It is their job to squeeze you not the
client.

\- Less startup contracts, more enterprise.

But in my experience contracting only works in a big market such as London. Or
more accurate it works better in big markets with a big demand for skills that
I/you have. I am not sure I could be a contractor in smaller markets where you
would depend on remote contracts and an established wide network of clients
already.

Also, remember to build a few months war chest before you start. And able to
cut expenses if you need some bench time.

Ps. don't call it freelancing, unless you are a designer and then only if you
really love the term.

~~~
aframe
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

To just quickly address your suspicion - I’m not a recruiter (or a designer).
I’m a software engineer who’s just had a few ups and downs since December.

~~~
flurdy
Thanks, sorry about the suspicion.

Contracting as a software engineer is usually worth it, though not always. But
it certainly depends on location ie demand, unless you have a very good
network already.

And also depends on experience. Contracting without 5-10 years experience is a
big gamble as your CV is a harder sell to people that expect you to be running
from the start. Though no need to be a guru, imposter syndrome prevails for
contractors as well :)

Also from the survey questions remember contracting income is fluid. Payments
to your ltd company often gets delayed a month or two due to missed accounts
payable dates etc. Happens to me all the time but I have never had a non-
payment, just delays. You got to have buffers (ie bank balance) enough so that
you don't have to be paid every month, as a company and personally.

Seems like you have already dabbled in contracting so may not be relevant
anymore but I did once write up an intro to contracting in the UK:
[http://blog.flurdy.com/2015/10/contracting-101.html](http://blog.flurdy.com/2015/10/contracting-101.html)

------
bsaul
I personally find the customer / supplier relationship much more sane than the
employer / employee. There’s a contract, you negociate a fee according to a
skill and the market, and it’s for a given duration. No emotion involved, no «
my boss don’t like me », or « i feel i have to do this if i want that
promotion ». No politics either. It’s just 100% focused on the job.

Now i live in a country where work is both heavily regulated, and with a very
high unemployment rate, so maybe it’s different elsewhere.

------
Neil44
I've been freelance / self employed about 8 years now, I couldn't see myself
being able to cope with a normal job any more to be honest. I'm too used to
being master and commander of my own domain lol. I'm not somebody that
stresses about things, I find it easy to let things go. Not everybody does.
I'm not the best person in the world at freelancing, I could use some more
self dicipline but it's been paying my bills so I can't be that bad at it. Not
everybody is suited to being freelance and that's OK.

------
fecak
"Freelancing" is a bit of a catch-all term so it's tough to give you a simple
answer, and your success working independently will probably rely on several
factors.

1 - Is your skillset relatively rare or in demand in a freelance market?

2 - How easy or difficult will it be for employers to find you? This is
related to how well you market yourself, how well networked you are within the
market, whether an exchange (eg Upwork, Fiverr) of some kind exists for you to
join, and whether or not you can use any "agents" or third-parties to broker
deals and connect you with work.

3 - What is your 'end game' or primary criteria for the work that you want to
do? Are you interested in work/life balance, money, control over what kind of
work you do (and don't do), career progression, ability to take long breaks
between work, remote work or digital nomad roles, etc.?

There are even more factors than this, but this is a start. I know countless
people who have freelanced successfully for many years, and others who didn't
like it at all. Every story is different.

------
smackay
Freelancing jobs, especially the better ones, like any relationship are
fundamentally built on good communication and trust. It's pretty hard to
replicate this with technology, except where it make the process of getting
the necessary paperwork filled out and the day to day exchange of information
easier.

Your survey is mainly about invoicing. In my experience that's a solved
problem at least when dealing with smaller companies. In the freelancing gigs
I have had over the past 10 years I either sent a PDF by mail, or committed it
to a repository (10/10 for geek cred for WebFaction) or used an online
timesheet program. Payment was made via bank transfer within a few hours and
rarely more than a couple of days. Even in relationships with very large
companies based in abroad (i.e. USA, I'm in Portgual) once the necessary
paperwork was sent to get the information into the billing system the process
was smooth.

Where I have experienced problems it was with slightly sketchy organisations
and no amount of technology is going to solve that, other than an automated
lawyer or strongman service.

The unsolved "problems" with freelancing are getting companies to feel
sufficiently confident to do more of it and getting some kind of community to
keep freelancers fresh. The ability to allow groups of individuals to organize
themselves so that they can competently deal with companies on a peer to peer
basis would also be pretty useful.

~~~
aframe
Completely agree with your thoughts around building a community.

Thanks for your input.

------
213j123hd7dq
I love being a freelancer/contractor. I will probably not work full-time ever
again, unless I have a direct interest in the company. Its important in life
to be able to make your own decisions and not feel pressured by work. Lets
face it, full-time work sucks, you cannot take a holiday when you want without
approval, you feel bad when you are sick and you feel the hierarchical
pressure and you yield less money because you get perks and a social safety
net.

But I dont want any of that. I'll pay my sick leave, my computer and my phone.
Just give me the cash.

I've been a contractor now for 3 years, essentially providing a service and
issuing invoices to clients. Luckily for me, I've only had 2 clients in this
period of time, because both contracts were ongoing on large scale projects.

I have no rights, my contracts don't pay holiday, or sick leave, but I charge
a very high fee per day, more than every developer I know who works as a
standard full-time employee.

The result is a much higher income, and I have saved more money in 3 years
than most people I know.

Additionally, I'm not actually managing these projects, they have in-house
product designers and owners for this, so basically I'm just there to build
and maintain the thing, have meeting with other developers, and give a demo of
updates.

My advice to you is: \- To try to find ongoing work/projects rather than lots
of smaller ones. It saves the headache of negotiating and finding clients. \-
Stay away from freelancing websites. You will be taken advantage of and get
crumbs for jobs. \- Under all circumstances, do not take upon any Wordpress
websites, unless you are happy being at the bottom of the barrel for your
services. \- Don't work for friends, unless you both are very established in
your professions. \- If you are a web developer, specialize and only use the
latest tech that you actually want to use. Don't take on legacy crap projects.
\- Unless you are given the task of managing the project, do not quote. Charge
per day. \- If they offer you a desk space to work on-site, be aware that you
will be pulled into a standard working office culture, maybe you like this,
maybe you don't.

Enjoy the freedom!

------
puranjay
I'm not a developer but I've basically been freelancing since I was 19 (I'm
now turning 30). I never got a corporate job simply because where I live, I
can take advantage of favorable exchange rates to make far more than any
corporate job.

The pros:

1\. Once you get good at what you do, you can command a premium, and clients
will happily pay for it.

2\. Over time, you develop enough case studies to win clients easily. I now no
longer have to worry about finding clients.

3\. You develop a LOT of ancillary skills. Though my core expertise is
marketing, I've learned everything from Photoshop to building basic websites
simply because it was cheaper to do it myself than finding and hiring a sub-
contractor.

The cons:

1\. Working alone isn't any fun, especially if you're slightly extroverted as
I am.

2\. I don't know by how much, but I'm sure it impacts your career negatively.
I'm not sure how welcome I would be in a corporate role if I ever decided to
move in that direction. I certainly don't have a traditional resume, and few
hiring managers are equipped to evaluate it.

3\. Taxes can be a pain. Most freelancers neglect to factor in the 30% that
will end up going towards paying the government.

My advice:

1\. Figure out if this is for you, and if it is, go for it 100%. The only way
to build a lucrative freelancing career is to build up a large portfolio of
proven work, and a network of clients. Neither of these can be done overnight.

2\. Add 30% to whatever rates you decide are good for you. That's tax and
shouldn't be touched.

3\. Work for results, not for work. If you're competent at whatever you do,
you will enjoy showing results (or finished products) far more than just
sending a report of XYZ tasks completed for the month. It also gives you way
more control over how and when you work.

4\. Incorporate. I did this way too late and as a result, my financial history
has a few missing pieces. This can impact how willing banks are to lend to
you.

5\. If you can, get monthly retainers. That's the surest you can get to the
comfort of a salary.

6\. If you can work from anywhere, take advantage of lower cost of living in
other cities/countries. You'll save way more.

------
pmontra
I've been freelancing for the last 12 years, half of my work career. The
freelancing part is definitely the happiest. Work from home, customers that
pay reasonably on time, work only to meet deadlines, decide when to work and
when doing something else... There are no reasons for me to go back working
Monday to Friday 9:00 to 18:00 in somebody's else office.

------
lexda15
I have been working as a freelancer and a contractor. I enjoy this lifestyle.
But I still have different issues.

\- A LOT of job boards and freelance marketplaces exist. I wasted plenty of
hours to check them and find a relevant project. Approximately, I found a
service that helps me to manage them. [1]

\- Clients want to spend less money from a job. That's why you face a big
competition on the freelancers market. Indian and European freelancers charge
less money. Their rates are from $5 per hour till $40. When an American
freelancer has to charge from $50 till $150+. [2] Fixed price really solve
this issue.

\- You can't anticipate how much money you can get for a month.

That's why I suggest finding long-time clients or full-time remote jobs as a
contractor. Make your life easier.

[1] [https://periodix.net/](https://periodix.net/)

[2] [https://periodix.net/blog/which-developers-earn-more-
corpora...](https://periodix.net/blog/which-developers-earn-more-corporate-vs-
freelance/)

------
BjoernKW
You might find these results interesting:
[https://bjoernkw.com/2016/01/15/survey-for-it-freelancers-
ho...](https://bjoernkw.com/2016/01/15/survey-for-it-freelancers-how-do-you-
approach-marketing-and-sales-the-results/)

They're from a similar survey I conducted about 3 years ago.

~~~
aframe
Amazing! Thank you.

------
scarface74
It’s not attractive at all to me. I like going to work every day and the same
amount of money shows up in my account twice a month whether I’m sick or go on
vacation. I’m not chasing after clients or money and if the company goes out
of business or my job somehow disappears, I call my list of a dozen or so well
curated _local_ recruiting agencies I’ve kept in contact with over the years
and find another job quickly.

Now on the other hand, I have no issue with doing W2 contracting with an
agency, I get paid for every hour I work. I just make sure I negotiate a high
enough rate to take into account gaps in employment, unpaid time off, and lack
of a 401K match. I can always get insurance through my wife.

------
_red
I did sysadmin freelancing for a number of years. The keys for me were:

1\. Find small to mid-sized companies who can't afford (don't need) a full-
time SysAdmin, but could use one for say 2 hrs per day.

2\. Be nice and attentive to secretaries and office managers!

3\. Push clients to engage in contracts. Offer discounts on hourly rate for
bulk commitments (e.g. offer 10 hrs per month at a 35% discount or whatever).

4\. You need to oversubscribe yourself about 1.5x to make it work
financially...also invest in decent time & billing software.

5\. Never pay for advertising. Asking existing clients politely for referrals
is 10000% more effective. Further, the kind of jobs you get from "ads in the
paper" are never the jobs you actually want to do.

~~~
rezahandzalah
Can you elaborate on point 4? Billing software?

~~~
erfgh
What you will use to create the invoices that you will send to clients.

------
akskos
It's pretty great. My income rose about 600% when I started freelancing. Part
of this is the effect that working as an employee in Finland is very tax
inefficient.

------
muzani
It's really bad at first. I compared it akin to prostitution. It gets much
better as you get used to it and make lots and lots of mistakes. Learning
curve is about 5 years for me.

I've been tempted to write an ebook on the process, if anyone is interested,
but somehow I feel like I don't know enough.

~~~
aframe
I'd be interested to read that, for sure.

~~~
neillyons
My friend wrote one
[https://leanpub.com/freelancedeveloperbook](https://leanpub.com/freelancedeveloperbook).

I used it a lot when I started freelancing.

------
tomludus
This is just someone following Ryan Levesque's ask format for getting info on
what business to build.

Ask: The Counterintuitive Online Method to Discover Exactly What Your
Customers Want to Buy...Create a Mass of Raving Fans...and Take Any Business
to the Next Level
[https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1939447720/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1939447720/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_AgYyCbAMKJ2SW)

------
protomyth
It was great when I had a good, trustworthy agency to go through. When that
fell apart, it was a true pain. Network and on-time payments are the two
biggest problems I saw.

------
ahje
Once you have a few regular customers that pay on time, things are usually
nice. Until you reach that point, however, things are shaky at best.

------
tiuPapa
So one thing I am not really sure is how I can build a network where I can
find regular contracts? Especially just starting out?

~~~
rhodysurf
You have to start somewhere. Find a first client, wow them. More likely than
not they will know someone else that needs work. At least that is my
experience.

------
ykevinator
Sites like up work have made buyers of freelancing services think that your
work is worth $200. It's really bad. I would instead, if I were you, find a
middleman contracting agency and work there for a while until you can get
their trust and then try to move to a remote contract.

------
jamestimmins
I've personally found DoubleYourFreelancing.com to be a great resource. So is
the IndieHacker's podcast which interviews patio11 (it's one of the early
ones). This should be essential reading/listening for new consultants.

------
omegote
After having been freelancing at upwork and the like for a couple of years in
my spare time, I'd never do it as my single source of income. There are just
too many ups and downs, I appreciate the consistency of a 9-5 job.

------
4ndrewl
Which country, doing what?

~~~
aframe
UK, software engineering.

~~~
rorygibson
Don't call yourself a freelancer. You're a consultant who helps your clients
to improve their businesses.

Price accordingly, then over successive engagements, raise prices. As long as
you can demonstrate the value, good clients are happy to pay. You don't want
the not-good clients.

~~~
Jhndb
"A freelancer or freelance worker, is a term commonly used for a person who is
self-employed and is not necessarily committed to a particular employer long-
term. Freelance workers are sometimes represented by a company or a temporary
agency that resells freelance labor to clients; others work independently or
use professional associations or websites to get work."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freelancer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freelancer)

Can you explain how this definition differs from yours?

~~~
shakestheclown
I think their point isn't that the terms are incorrect but that the word
freelancer is undervalued by respective clients versus consultant/contractor.
Similar to how if you say you are moonlighting, people will take you less
seriously regardless of actual skill.

------
yesenadam
Freelancing doing what?

~~~
aframe
software engineering

