
Passé présomptif: on Vercingetorix - lermontov
https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/public/passe-presomptif-vercingetorix/
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sudosteph
One of the most interesting materials I was exposed to in a college french
course was actually an 8th-grade level French history book. It was beautifully
illustrated, not all that difficult to read, and it spanned an impressive
amount of time and material (at least compared to the US history books I had
been exposed to before)

I was really surprised to see a whole chapter dedicated to Ancient Gaul, a
place I had never even heard of until then. Brits may begin their history with
Rome, but us Americans seem to start our tale in England (with perhaps a very
small nod to the native cultures that predated English colonization). Anyhow,
it's fascinating from the American perspective how relatively "young" we
really are as a national identity.

~~~
forinti
So you've never read Asterix. You're in for a treat.

~~~
sametmax
Although I wonder how they translate the never ending puns in English.

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cannam
Very effectively. The English versions are celebrated almost as much for the
translations by Anthea Bell and Derek Hockridge as for everything else. Puns
are translated quite freely; in many places they make up new ones. See e.g.
[https://auntymuriel.com/2012/12/23/asterix-in-translation-
th...](https://auntymuriel.com/2012/12/23/asterix-in-translation-the-genius-
of-anthea-bell-and-derek-hockridge/)

~~~
ealhad
Wow. The translations are impressive indeed, I didn't expect that.

That reminds me of the French traduction of Discworld, an amazing work by
Patrick Couton.

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barry-cotter
Traduction is translation in English, one of the three faux amies with -ion at
end.

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ealhad
That was me not paying attention. Though if you look closely, I got it right
the first time ;)

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mmanfrin
A good read outlining the different kinds of historical writing, including
'passé présomptif' where an author makes statements that their subjuct _may
have_ done something or _would have been familiar_ with something else. It
ends, essentially, as a review of Jean-Louis Brunaux's _Vercingétorix_.

~~~
bloak
I agree. It's a great article.

Incidentally, the "passé présomptif" is also much used for writing about
Shakespeare: a similar phenomenon. Now I know what to call it.

~~~
djur
When I was younger I read a really good book about Homer that was kind of
framed as a 'biography' of Odysseus that was written in that way, but it was
open from the start that it was an artifice used to elucidate what we know
about the Greek Dark Ages.

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pbhjpbhj
It's a lively and interesting piece IMO.

>"In schools, Our Island Story starts with Roman Britain, [...]" //

I'd have thought that was because Britain wasn't a thing until the Roman
conquest. AFAICT prior to Roman occupation there wasn't a Britain, there were
different tribes, but they weren't united in to a nation, they weren't even a
loose affiliation.

When it notes that some Iceni tried to revolt, that tells you exactly why
British history is started there. Otherwise it would be "some Britons tried to
revolt".

What's he doing in the imagined prose when he gives French words in
parentheticals, I don't get it. And shouldn't it be "knows [ _savait_ ]"
rather than _connaisait_?

~~~
jcranmer
The same was true for the Gauls, pre-Roman conquest.

> And shouldn't it be "knows [savait]" rather than connaisait?

No, connaître is the right word. If you took French class, you probably
learned that you "savoir" a thing or skill and you "connaître" a person, but
that's not the correct dichotomy. Instead, "savoir" is more for knowing
concrete, particular facts, while "connaître" is a weaker, vaguer familiarity,
almost more like "to know about" or "to know of" rather than "to know". In
this usage, Vercingetorix isn't implied to have had these skills themselves
but rather to know of them.

~~~
petecox
Both senses of 'to know' from Latin's cognoscere and sapere similarly flow
through to other Romance languages including Portuguese (conhecer/saber)
Italian (conoscere/sapere) and Spanish (conocer/saber).

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YeGoblynQueenne
>> Just try to think of a famous saying by Boudicca.

Well, there is that thing she used to say as she went into Warp Spasm just
before ploughing into the Romans; "grrraaaaAAARRRGGGGHHH!!".

Historical fact.

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mannykannot
I see that you have garnered a few down-votes for this - for not putting it in
the passé présomptif, I would guess.

~~~
YeGoblynQueenne
I know. My apologies to the readers who find jokes are not acceptable on HN.
My feeling is that sometimes it's worth burning a little karma to lighten the
mood just a bit.

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BrandoElFollito
> In France, things are different. Ever since the Revolution, the idea of a
> deep and mystical connection with “our ancestors the Gauls” has been central
> to French national identity.

This is not true anymore. I was in primary school in the 80' (when you usually
learn these things, usually twice) and indeed, the Gaulois mentality was
strong.

My children now go to school (the same one btw) and they are repeatibly taught
about how good the relationship between the Gaulois and the Romans was. The
Gallo-Romains is all the rage now and they supposedly mixed extremely well,
each taking from the other three good parts of their culture.

The trade aspect of the Gaulois' work is also highlighted a lot (so they are
not shown anymore as warring tribes).

I think my children had a passing info about Vercingétorix but it was very
minor.

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_Codemonkeyism
In Germany it's basically

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminius)

and it isn't used in Asterix either for obvious reasons.

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Bakary
I wonder what the translation for Astérix and the Goths is like in German.

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marojejian
Great color on Vercingetorix in Dan Carlin's podcast:
[https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-60-the-
ce...](https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-60-the-celtic-
holocaust/)

~~~
srrge
I agree. This episode is called The Celtic Holocaust. Great alternate read of
the Gallic Wars by Caesar.

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B1FF_PSUVM
That was a well informed piece, worth reading, but the final complaint is weak
- so the book was just about its subject life and times and not piled on with
later centuries' consequential factoids ...
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiety_of_influence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiety_of_influence)
strikes again.

