
Porsche found a way to 3D-print lightweight pistons that add more horsepower - clouddrover
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/34775/porsche-found-a-way-to-3d-print-lightweight-pistons-that-add-even-more-horsepower
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fermienrico
The fricking media/PR around 3D printing is really annoying.

You can't match:

1) Get benefits of strength like in forging process

2) Case hardening would still need to be done

3) Shot peening and surface hardening?

4) Speed

5) Cost

6) Robustness and reliability, how many 3D printers have various ways of 3D
printing, how do you validate parts for strength? It is a monumental
challenge. Traditional processes are vetted and tested for decades.

7) Material wastage

8) Footprint and floorspace (1 injection molding machine can replace about a
10,000 3d printers to match the volume).

9) Power consumption

10) Human labor and attendance (may be this is already solved)

I work in manufacturing and we have a bunch of 3d printers. They make amazing
tools for prototyping and testing things out. Hell, we don't even use them
anymore because its just faster and cheaper to get it from Protolabs / 3D
Hubs.

3D Printing has extremely useful applications where we can optimize the shape
without concerning for right angles, draft angles, chamfers, and fillets. Some
of the ANSYS tools can use algorithms to optimize the shape that looks like a
bio-mechanical thing because we are no longer constrained by aforementioned
restrictions.

But the public needs to understand that 3D printing will not replace
everything. It is like saying cars replaced bicycles when they were being used
in late 1890's... no, we still have bicylces 120 years later and will continue
to use them. 3D printing serves a niche purpose and a huge benefit in
medical/dental industries but boy the media is doing a horrible job of
explaining its advantages and disadvantages. I just see misinformation all
over.

~~~
wil421
In my experience it’s not the general public who is hyping 3D printing its the
tech/nerd crowd. I can remember when 3D printing was getting affordable and
people telling me I just didn’t understand how it would change manufacturing.

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Jerry2
From the article:

> _they weigh 10 percent less than their forged equivalents and feature an
> integrated and closed cooling duct in the piston crown that 's apparently
> unable to be reproduced using traditional manufacturing methods. The
> decrease in weight and temperature results in an extra 30 horsepower on top
> of the GT2 RS's already mighty 700._

So.. 10% less weight and ~4% increase in performance. But what about the
increase in price? 3D printing is magnitudes slower than forging and probably
many times more expensive. I guess some Porsche owners would gladly pay for
these improvements.

~~~
bitexploder
These are limited edition cars. A relative handful are made. That’s often
where a manufacturer goes to more customized tooling and parts. Keep in mind
Porsche owners of these types of cars will often easily spend 20-50k usd
customizing the most minute details such as stitching color of the seatbelt,
etc. Factoring a few thousand extra dollars in engine cost is easy.

~~~
taylodl
I would assume it would be for racing, not consumers. They didn't mention
cost, but looking at the process, time and materials involved I'd bet you're
looking at tens of thousands of dollars. I don't see consumers going for that,
but GT racing clubs? Oh yeah!

~~~
bitexploder
I can see some overlap on the extreme consumer end [their 300K 700hp car is
probably hundreds produced at most. The profits are already really high on
those vehicles so I am curious if/when/how they will release and price this
tech, or if it is just some random Porsche team drumming up some marketing for
mostly vaporware :)

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dkdk8283
Seems like a nice PR piece. Porsche is using 3d printing to drive tooling
development to cut new shapes on pistons. Awesome for r&d but 3d printing
metallurgy has a long way to go before it’s production ready.

> and feature an integrated and closed cooling duct in the piston crown that's
> apparently unable to be reproduced using traditional manufacturing methods

~~~
mc32
To add to that, by the time it’s ready for mass production, how important will
piston engines be?

I suppose if will be gradual replacement by electrics but still it’s not like
they would have lots of life in them.

~~~
dpoochieni
Lol I'd say we still have about 50 years to go. Plus Porsche will cater to
enthusiasts. I know I will always have at least 1 gas car

~~~
toomuchtodo
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-
out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-
out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles)

Scroll down to the countries starting to ban fossil fuel vehicles. I think
you’re fine for the next 10-15 years, after that I think it’s hazy whether
fossil fuel vehicles will be permitted to be used at all if battery electrics
take off. My bet is we reach a tipping point and an outright ban around 2035,
if not earlier due to refinery unprofitability due to volume declines.

I do look forward to Porsche attempting a competitive EV though!

@JumpCrisscross: Throttled, can’t reply to your comment. “Progress happens
slowly, and then all of a sudden.”

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _we reach a tipping point and an outright ban around 2035_

Zero chance of this happening in the U.S., U.K. or Germany. I imagine the
Gulf, India and China will similarly retain sport driving cultures.

Mass-manufactured ICE vehicles are past their nadir. But mechanical engines
will have a long life thereafter.

~~~
joshspankit
Based on what?

The minority may love the nostalgia, but sport racing cultures are primarily
built on speed and ICE vehicles are already being left in the dust. Another 10
years and I would be surprised if there was a _single_ ICE vehicle that could
beat an electric.

~~~
mc32
Only thing I can think of is growl. Some people like that.

~~~
joshspankit
Be easy enough to hook a speaker system to the acceleration

~~~
Gibbon1
I think they are already doing stuff like that.

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frandroid
How does a 10% weight reduction in such a tiny, light part as a piston (okay,
8 of them or something) result in a 5% output increase?

~~~
dugditches
10% is massive in a piece of metal rotating so quickly.

Tiny pistons is how some motorcycles got incredible power out of small
displacement(and ridiculous gearboxes). 20,000 RPM engines, 150mph/240kmh out
of 250cc(4-stroke as well). And this was in the 60's.

(loud)
[https://youtu.be/o57JwibqCb8?t=114](https://youtu.be/o57JwibqCb8?t=114)
[https://i.imgur.com/HMvaSYh.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/HMvaSYh.jpg)
[https://i.imgur.com/BefSzRs.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/BefSzRs.jpg)
[https://youtu.be/7d3hdDgFMrQ?t=5979](https://youtu.be/7d3hdDgFMrQ?t=5979)

~~~
Smoosh
> metal rotating so quickly

*reciprocating

It's also why racing engines (when not limited by regulations, or when only
limited on total capacity) tended to have 8, 10, 12 or more cylinders. Despite
the increase in the physical size of the engine, each cylinder would be
smaller (for the same displacement) allowing higher revs and more power.

------
hinkley
It seems to me that you could get pretty close to this design with traditional
casting, forging, and then a pass with a multiple axis CNC machine. You’d get
a little extra material down in some of those more complex curves, but how
much really? And with a stronger part you could save material elsewhere.

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swatson741
Very impressive. Too bad they take 10 hours to yield. I'm excited to see how
far they can take this in F1.

~~~
alfalfasprout
Could see them used in top-spec cars. Eg; 911 GT2RS/GT3RS.

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burger_moon
I thought it might be about metal matrix composites which are even lighter
than traditional forged magnesium pistons

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_matrix_composite](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_matrix_composite)

~~~
durkie
My info is a little out of date (~10 years) but I did a MS thesis on
aluminum/carbon fiber composites and holy hell are they impossible to produce.
There are so many factors that just make these materials not want to go
together (similar for Mg / carbon fiber). I would be really surprised to see
any real MMC any time soon.

~~~
jasonwatkinspdx
MMC parts are used in quite a few high performance vehicles today,
particularly brake rotors. They're still premium parts, but it's stuff you can
get from Ford or Honda on their more limited editions.

I know less about it, but as I understand it they're productionized in
aerospace now too, again though, just generally for very high spec and price
parts.

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adrianN
It's nice that they get some use out of 3d printing, but what's the point of
R&D in ICE cars? It's a dying technology. In twenty or thirty years their sale
will hopefully be banned in most interesting markets, or at least strongly
disincentivized.

~~~
asguy
This is like the RISC vs CISC debate: 25 years ago some of the loudest
individuals proclaimed that x86 was dead, and we’d all be on
MIPS/PowerPC/SPARC/Alpha. Reality doesn’t always match up with idealism.

Engineering has a habit of advancing due to incremental improvements. The ICE
still has room to grow and become more efficient.

~~~
adrianN
The ICE has no room to become carbon neutral with efficiencies that are even
comparable to electrics. Getting from electricity to liquid fuel to movement
probably has losses exceeding 90%. Electric cars on the other hand are like
80% efficient.

~~~
thomquaid
You are very wrong here. Ethanol as an ICE fuel could be done carbon neutral
very quickly thru yeast, and battery technology will probably never reach
comparable energy densities in weight limited applications (mobile
applications). We may engineer a society where the limitations of batteries
are not limiting (because we/goods never travel far), but only a fool thinks
you need electricity as an energy source for carbon neutral ICE.

~~~
adrianN
I think you're underestimating the amount of land you need to feed all that
yeast.

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timzaman
Pistons? They should also make some lightweight carbon fiber saddles for my
horse and carriage.

~~~
llukas
Already done.

[https://www.oldsouthcarriage.com/about/our-
carriages/](https://www.oldsouthcarriage.com/about/our-carriages/)

In 2014, Old South Carriage put a contemporary twist on our horse-drawn
carriages. We began converting our fleet of wooden carriages to a carbon-fiber
composite material similar to that used in Boeing’s 787 jetliner. Our
reasoning? If it’s good enough for Boeing, it’s good enough for us! The result
is a lighter weight, more durable carriage which requires much less
maintenance than its wooden predecessor. With this innovation, we successfully
increased the level of comfort for both our horses and passengers while
preserving the look, feel, and authenticity of our original carriages.

~~~
g8oz
This article is also interesting

"The Amish Horse-Drawn Buggy Is More Tech-Forward Than You Think: _The tech
inside this 19th-century conveyance isn 't stuck in the 19th century._"
[https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/car-
technology/a24666/...](https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/car-
technology/a24666/how-the-amish-build-a-buggy/)

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chauffer
somebody tell Ferrari.

~~~
rolivercoffee
Someone already did: [https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferrari-eyes-
innovative-p...](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferrari-eyes-innovative-
piston-solution-thanks-to-3d-printing-870008/870008/)

