
Ukraine protests: Before and after photos from Kiev's battle zone - pserwylo
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-20/kiev-ukraine-protests-before-after/5272570
======
ck2
I'm kind of amazed how few dead there are.

If this happened in the USA, every single protester (and innocent bystander)
would be in jail or dead by now.

I heard they forced the retirement of head of the army who was refusing
shooting on their own people and put the head of the navy in charge? Doesn't
sound like it is going to end well.

~~~
k_bx
I'm amazed to see comment like this.

Do you really say that in USA president could beat-out peaceful protest (yes,
they started completely peaceful, I was there), and later say "it was done in
order to install new-year tree"?

~~~
ck2
You need to tune into our RNC and DNC conventions every 4 years. These are the
two political parties that vote themselves millions of taxpayer funded
"security" spending for their conventions in congress.

Protesters are beaten and locked up almost immediately, huge "pens" are made
to coral them like animals, and recently the new tactic is to make "safe
zones" where people are not even allowed near the events anymore.

If there was even a hint of weapons being used, our police are heavily
militarized now and would not hesitate to shoot someone even holding a
smartphone if they thought they could get away with it. Virtually no police
are prosecuted in any given year for shooting unarmed people in the USA,
happens every week.

However what you have in the Ukraine is something I am jealous of, people
actually care.

~~~
k_bx
More than 10 people were shot today by snipers. Nothing to be jealous about.

~~~
usaphp
As far as I heard, the sniper was from the opposition, and he shot police
officers, no?

~~~
k_bx
What? No! Here are people who died from sniper
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaMbkoJT2uY](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaMbkoJT2uY)

Here's a medical worker who had been shot
[https://twitter.com/HromadskeTV/status/436445556664066048/ph...](https://twitter.com/HromadskeTV/status/436445556664066048/photo/1)

Here's a video of sniper shooting at people:
[https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=570573343039007&set=vb....](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=570573343039007&set=vb.523004674462541&type=2&theater)

~~~
k_bx
UPD: that girl just died :(
[https://twitter.com/avramchuk_katya/status/43648282472023654...](https://twitter.com/avramchuk_katya/status/436482824720236544)

~~~
drdaeman
I've read corrections that she underwent surgery and is still alive.

[http://espreso.tv/new/2014/02/20/poranena_v_shyyu_volonterka...](http://espreso.tv/new/2014/02/20/poranena_v_shyyu_volonterka_pomerla)
(in Ukrainian)

~~~
k_bx
Yes, just saw that. Best wishes to her.

------
powertower
Considering what has happened in the last 12 years of global conflict, and the
type of truth that has been reveled after-the-fact, it's amazing how many
ignorant and absolutely biased people this thread has, all proclaiming the
same old "we must support the peace-loving freedom fighters" and "Putin is
evil" cliché.

~~~
spindritf
I don't know about the Ukrainian opposition but Putin is pretty evil. And many
people who live in countries that used to be a part of the eastern block
understand very well why you do not want to find yourself in Kremlin's orbit.

~~~
shitgoose
People from Western Ukraine in Kiev and police are shooting at each other. How
is that Putin's and Kremlin's fault?

You say you don't know Ukrainian opposition. They are from West of Ukraine.
West of Ukraine is notorious for their hatred of Jews and Russians. Hating
Jews is not fashionable these days, but there is an open season on Russians.
People from West of Ukraine _love_ killing Russians, they don't miss any
opportunity, like conflict in Chechnya, where Ukrainians took an active part
fighting alongside with Chechens against Russia. West of Ukraine considers
East of Ukraine as (1) cattle, (2) slaves and (3) just like Russians but
worse. To no surprise, West of Ukraine didn't hesitate to pick up arms and
start shooting. They are very passionate bunch. Just watch what will happen
when they win (and they will). Central Ukraine will be a blood bath where
people will be shot dead for just speaking Russian.

~~~
spindritf
_You say you don 't know Ukrainian opposition. They are from West of Ukraine._

I'm from Poland. I don't know about the current opposition, I'm aware of
Ukrainian nationalists and their history[1]. But for the same reason I also
fully sympathize with people who do not want to be in the Russian sphere of
influence. It's terrible.

Putin is a thug whose regime murders journalists and sends opposition
politicians to gulags. As I said, pretty evil. And not hypothetically, perhaps
in the future, once he takes over, but really, here and now[2].

Russian empire has always been like that. Behind. And holding back those who
were unfortunate to be nearby, too.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia)

~~~
shitgoose
You are a true Polish patriot. I wouldn't expect anything less from you.

------
thearn4
I have a hard time imagining what the best-case is among the likely scenarios
for Ukraine, moving forward. Stepdown of their president, and then business as
usual? A full military coup (like Egypt)?

~~~
eps
It's likely now that Ukraine will end up getting split into two countires. To
Russia Ukraine is a safety buffer between it and the EU, it's a matter of
national security. Russia simply won't let Ukraine go, not without imposing
_severe_ economic sanctions, so Ukraine _will_ suffer the split from Russia
far more than it suffers now. On the other end, EU won't likely accept Ukraine
with such sanctions attached. They already have Germany paying for Greece,
Spain and Italy. Getting another mouth to feed will be hard to impossible to
justify, regardless of how noble the motives are.

It's a stalemate. The only way forward for Ukraine is to let Russia have its
safety buffer. If they want to join EU, they will have to split.

------
yashg
Ukrainians are making news. The country is seeing protests over a cancelled
trade deal with the EU, a Ukrainian immigrant sold his company for $19B.

It's easy to see why Ukrainians would want to align with open economies of the
west than with Russia.

~~~
atmosx
That's a very short-sighted comment, almost _sad_.

What is happening actually in Ukraine is what you get when 2 super-powers
choose a foreign country as a battlefield. The stakes are high, because who
ever controls Ukraine has the biggest say in the Euro-Asia region over the
other (Germany vs Russia). Ukraine could play a key-role in a new form of
union that Russia wants to create with it's neighbors. If Ukraine joins then,
they have the numbers to face on military, political and financial level both
the USA and the EU. If not, it's just Russia basically, the others don't add
much to the sum.

Ukraine's elites are split, but of course they are not the ones bleeding on
the street. They have _average Joe 's_ for that. This country became
_independent_ in 1991 but never achieve _real independence_ (much as my
beloved Greece) from foreign interests and now they are slaughtering
everything and everyone.

The _liberal west_ is using Nazi groups (far-right wing skinheads) to
physically attack the current establishment. So it's for _democratic
governments_ to use Nazis when they see fit. The government responds in a very
_Russian_ way and you get chaos.

Mind you, that Yanukovych was _at least_ elected and the people do not trust
the opposition's leader either (and how could they?).

None of this is for the _good of Ukranian people_ , this is just foreign
super-powers tearing a country apart, for their own sake. Everything else is
for mass consumption.

Both sides are equally corrupted. I feel sorry for the Ukrainian population
because they are caught up on a spiral from which I don't know how they could
get off, without getting hurt.

ps. As for the 19BN deal, what are you proposing exactly? If you have 19 BN
for every Ukranian (45M people) out there, I'm sure they will be eager to hear
from you.

~~~
k_bx
Man, what a bullshit. Just as in Russian news. Do they still say people are
paid to be in Maidan by USA?

~~~
oddx
I think atmosx points very well written and neutral. What exactly is incorrect
from your point of view?

Russian medias are biased (as West medias are), but I don't see how it related
to post above.

~~~
k_bx
> I think atmosx points very well written and neutral.

No. They are completely wrong or a complete fantasy. From things that are
fantasy like "this is not good for ukrainians", or conspiracy-like talks about
"big games by giants" bla-bla, to being wrong in facts like "west is using
Nazis". Complete bullshit. It's not Nazis there, it's normal people from both,
East and West.

p.s.: Russian medias are not biased, they are writing complete shit, from
obviously underestimating number of protestors, to saying bullshit like
"Ukrainian people protest against laws that forbid Nacism and Fashism". How
biased you need to be to say bullshit like this?

~~~
vetinari
> It's not Nazis there...

How do you call Pravij Sektor then? UNA-UNSO? White Hammer?

~~~
k_bx
Yes, Nazis are present there, sorry, you catched me on my words. What I was
trying to say is that it's bullshit to say "west is using Nazis" (not sure
what exactly is meant by "liberal west"). People who fight are not all nazis,
not only nazis rebelled and bringing up nazis is irrelevant from my point of
view.

~~~
atmosx
> People who fight are not all nazis

I never stated that all the people involved are Nazis. No the presence of the
Nazis is not irrelevant at all, it's the exactly the opposite: It's _very
relevant_ because it says a lot about the real goal of the opposition: Come to
power no matter what.

I know that Arseniy Yatsenyuk is backed by USA interests and Vitali Klitschko
by EU (German) interests. So it's a sort of a triangle, but these two for the
time being are against the Russian backed current PM Yanukovych.

As for the "Liberal West". Theoretically the _west_ (EU, UK & USA) are
_promoters_ of democracy, civil rights and so on. Both Klitschko and Yatsenyuk
were in Berlin 24 hours before the massacre. So when Nazis with guns were
attacking government buildings the two opposition leaders were _embracing the
move_ with specific remarks from "Square of Freedom". So there is clearly a
link between the legal opposition and the extremist far-right (Nazi + other
kind of) opposition. Of course, we don't _know if in Berlin any decisions were
taken_ , but then again you have to be a little bit _naive_ to believe in this
sort of coincidence.

In this and many others cases, the _goals do NOT justify the means_ , because
if the opposition uses (directly or indirectly) the Nazis today, no one says
that they are not going to use them again tomorrow against their next enemy.
It's simple as that.

The EU's stance is very descriptive: The first day they condemn the episodes
(by the Nazi opposition), the next day announces sanctions against the current
government!!! It's embarrassing: The EU wants the Ukranian government to stand
down because they don't like it.

I'm not saying Putin is any better, but I expect the EU to be a lot _better_
than Putin, China or Iran by supporting democratic values, not back-channeling
and fueling war.

------
RRRA
Murder... [http://videos.lexpress.fr/actualite/monde/video-ukraine-
des-...](http://videos.lexpress.fr/actualite/monde/video-ukraine-des-tirs-de-
sniper-sur-les-manifestants_1493718.html)

~~~
blackhaz
Pro-Russian snipers shooting medics as well.

~~~
elementai
Why would any sane sniper shoot medics to death? What are they, instantly
healing combatants to full hp? Even if snipers would be so evil, it's much
more demanding for the enemy to have wounded people because it distracts and
takes off resources.

Sniper tactics is completely different from shooting non-priority targets,
it's usually enemy leaders, machinegunners, other snipers and so on. Medics
are civilians and only provocators would choose them as targets.

~~~
vetinari
As usual, cui bono? What can the UA government gain from ordering to shoot the
medics, and what can the rioters gain?

------
Kiro
I remember an interview in the early stages of the protest where the
demonstrators were so proud of their non-violent and peacefully organized
demonstration, showing how elderly people helped with logistics etc. How do
they feel now?

~~~
levosmetalo
They could still be proud. They are not the ones that started the violence. If
someone attacks you, multiple times, with disproportionate force, and you
somehow manage to survive and fight back, you can still be proud that you
wanted peace and not violence.

According to your comment I guess you would like them to be ashamed that they
were forced to defend and retreat instead of fighting back?

~~~
powertower
This recent event started when the protestors killed a bunch of retreating
cops with bullets, firebombs, and other lethal means. And then took 50 of them
hostage.

In 1 years time it will turn out that everything you have been told was a lie.
Just like in the last 5-6 wars.

Stop drinking the Kool-Aid.

~~~
IgorPartola
Citation needed. As far as I know the protesters never fired a single gun.

~~~
shitgoose
[http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/news_and_pol...](http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/01/140124_Ukraine/140124_FOR_Ukraine-04.jpg.CROP.original-
original.jpg)

[http://imbo01.vg.no/users/bildespesial/images/47512aad574685...](http://imbo01.vg.no/users/bildespesial/images/47512aad5746852d103cf5002d9c8ad9.jpg?t\[\]=crop%3Ax%3D0%2Cy%3D0%2Cwidth%3D3724%2Cheight%3D2700&t\[\]=maxSize%3Awidth%3D990%2Cheight%3D660&accessToken=e1ba67fec98678c7bf3b3847042b51384b48e547fd8c8ef985c84d1199fb509a)

[http://i.imgur.com/ZeDmQqc.jpg?1](http://i.imgur.com/ZeDmQqc.jpg?1)

[http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-
content/uploads/2014/20140219_k...](http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-
content/uploads/2014/20140219_kiev_riots_2/ukraine_protests2_048.jpg)

Story about opposition taking hostage dozens of police is all over the news
(Russian news at least, I am not sure if it is reaching the English-speaking
media yet).

~~~
IgorPartola
These pictures are either of the Ukrainian police, not protesters, or show no
indication of actually being in Ukraine. Also, Russian news is full of
propaganda trying to show the protesters as the ones causing the violence.
Anything from independent sources, such as Reuters or AP?

~~~
shitgoose
On which picture you see Ukrainian police?

~~~
IgorPartola
First and third. The shield is the Ukrainian police's riot shield.

~~~
vetinari
They took hostages from Berkut. Rebels do have police equipment.

Also, notice the gun used? It is not exactly police issue.

~~~
levosmetalo
The same Berkut that captured, beated, took clothes and forced a man to dance
naked in the snow, all while laughing and making fun of him. And left him
bloody in the snow afterwards? In some other country that same Berkut would be
prosecuted. I don't say I support violence without trial against them, but I
can perfectly understand why would someone do it.

------
k_bx
Слава Україні! Хлопці та жінки, вибачте що не з вами, що не в Києві!
Сподіваємось, що знайдемо змогу вам допомогти!

~~~
gus_massa
Autotranslation:

> _Glory to Ukraine! Men and women, sorry not with you, not in Kiev! We hope
> that you find an opportunity to help!_

~~~
Evgeniuz
> Glory to Ukraine! Men and women, sorry for not being with you in Kyiv. I'm
> hoping that we'll find a way to help you.

I'm ukrainian, so I may have messed up english grammar.

~~~
shitgoose
Not only grammar:(

------
sandro18
Live stream:
[http://www.livestation.com/en/reuters](http://www.livestation.com/en/reuters)

~~~
zzzcpan
There is a whole sticky topic on reddit with translation links, just in case
someone is looking.

------
vuzum
Interactive view of the same photos:
[http://blog.blogvio.com/post/77297366370/ukraine-
protests](http://blog.blogvio.com/post/77297366370/ukraine-protests)

