
A touchpad is not a mouse, or at least not a good one - zdw
https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/tech/TouchpadNotAMouse
======
petercooper
Reading this makes me appreciate my Magic Trackpad even more.

I _hated_ trackpads for years, until I was forced to use a Magic Trackpad
lying around when my mouse broke. After a week I was a convert and I haven't
used a mouse for years.

Clicking and dragging with one hand, easy, right clicking easy, precision
stuff in Photoshop, etc, no problem.. it's nothing like a typical PC trackpad
at all, indeed it should probably be considered an entirely separate type of
product.

Of course, different strokes for different folks too! I know people who swear
by trackballs or those weird "nipple" things in the middle of IBM laptops and
I couldn't get my head around either.

~~~
macintux
I’ve long suspected that most people (who use a Mac, at least) who still use
mice simply haven’t tried tap to click.

Once I discovered that there was no going back. The sheer amount of
unnecessary energy wasted on clicking, not to mention the other great
gestures.

~~~
stevehawk
I'm just an anecdote but I can't imagine I'm alone in hating 'tap to click'.
It's the first thing I disable after a clean OS install.

~~~
danaris
You are not alone. I find that tap-to-click results in erroneous clicks on a
very regular basis.

------
losvedir
nthing all the comments that these are criticisms of bad touchpads, not all
touchpads, and that the Apple ones with OSX are great. For the click and drag
motion I have it set to be a three finger drag (no click) and it works great.
And two finger scrolling is much better than a mouse's wheel since you can
scroll in 2 dimensions.

I use a Windows laptop, too, and between the inferior trackpad and inane use
of ctrl (as opposed to command which is comfortably under the thumb) for all
modifiers, it just doesn't feel as efficient or ergonomic to me.

------
hesk
Maybe you just need a better trackpad implementation. On macOS:

\- Right click: tap with two fingers.

\- Move pointer while button is pressed: quickly tap twice to press button,
move finger on trackpad, press a third time to release. (Although, this
behavior is not the default and has to be activated in the system settings.)

Personally, I've been using trackpads for 13 years now and I prefer them over
mice. I use an external trackpad at home.

Edit: paragraphs.

~~~
rimunroe
For moving the pointer while the button is pressed, why not instead click and
hold with one finger and drag around using another? I usually click with my
thumb and drag using my index finger.

~~~
neuralRiot
You can also double tap and drag while holding the second tap, i'm OK with
trackpads but what i find limiting is the area vs resolution ratio, if i set
the resolution high or speed low to have more precision i need to lift my
finger several times instead with the mouse i'm only limited by the size of my
desk, also since i use an intellimouse i have 2 extra buttons and I don't wear
my laptop, one thing that i hate about new trendy aesthetic minimalistic
trackpads is that they have no clearly defined boundaries so i have to drag my
finger across the whole palmrest to find it without looking.

------
vackosar
I got used to a trackpoint. It reduces moves away from standard palm n finger
position. Thinkpad notebooks have quite good ones, Thinkpad usb keyboards are
worse. There is also EnduraPro mechanical keyboard but the trackpoint is
reportedly bad.

~~~
drewg123
I was going to post something similar. Thank you for saying this.

I'll add that my recent laptop history was a series of thinkpads running
linux, and most recently a newish MBP. The MBP reminds me how much I hate
trackpads. I miss being able to click and drag w/o figuring out a shortcut. I
miss not having the cursor shoot off into lala land when I accidentally drag
the heel of my hand across the trackpad. I miss not having to move my fingers
from the home row in order to move the cursor.

My next laptop will have a trackpoint.

------
wjoe
It always amazes me the number of people who I've worked with who only use the
touchpad on their laptops all day - in my last job it was about 90% of the
office. On top of the post's complaints, they're also not at all ergonomic and
uncomfortable to use for long periods (not that normal mice are fantastically
ergonomic either, but at least using something to the side rather than
directly in front of you)

To a degree, it's just what you're used to I guess. I can't control the old
trackpoint laptop mice at all accurately, but some of my friends swear by them
and can't bear touchpads. But then I've never owned a laptop with one, while
they grew up with them.

One suggestion for the author that might make their "click and drag" problems
easier - I can double tap (without fully clicking down the touchpad) then keep
the second tap held down to have the same effect as moving a mouse with left
click held down. I think this is a Gnome/Cinnamon option though, touchpad
support and features can vary wildly on Linux, so it's worth looking into
different options there (eg libinput vs synaptics).

Ultimately you either need to get used to it, adjust your habits/software, or
plug in a mouse. It's easy enough to see why Mac users like the touchpad,
since the OS and most of the programs are designed to play well with a
touchpad. But it's not surprising that a 30 year old terminal emulator doesn't
work so great with them.

~~~
close04
> but some of my friends swear by them and can't bear touchpads

My first laptop was an IBM ThinkPad 600X (late '90s) and it only had a
trackpoint. I got so used to using it that even 20 years later I still find my
hand going to that nubbin when using a laptop that has one (especially
Lenovos, I still find the trackpoint implementation on them far superior to
what HP or Dell offer). I also use the trackpad if I have to but usually I'll
use a regular mouse.

But even so I think the only benefit trackpoints/pads offer is that you can
use the laptop in a position where a mouse wouldn't work. Like when having to
hold the laptop in one hand, or using in on your lap with no room to operate a
mouse. Usability wise I find the mouse better, even enough to defeat my
trackpoint-driven nostalgia.

------
alexandernst
I'd recommend the author to try a magic trackpad 2. I used to hate trackpads
in general, but once I tried this one, I never looked back at mouses.

~~~
vardump
I bought one, and regretted it ever since. It's nowhere near as good as the
integrated one in Macbook Pro. Magic trackpad 2 latency is absolutely
unbearable. So it's just collecting dust.

~~~
kalleboo
Did you also try it over USB instead of Bluetooth?

~~~
vardump
Yeah, but to my disappointment (and surprise) it didn't affect latency.

------
alexvoda
My current setup consists of the following:

\- A XD75 ortholinear keyboard with the default split layout (looks like this
but I have relegendable keycaps [1] )

\- A Contour design RollerMouse Red Plus [2]

\- A SwiftPoint ProPoint mouse (the latest addition)

An I am looking forward to maybe replacing the RollerMouse Red with a high end
touchpad (at the moment the only existing one is the Apple Magic Trackpad 2)

I find that this setup allows me to more evenly distribute the effort between
the hands. I can use arrow/PU/PD/Home/End with either hand and I can mouse
with either hand.

The ability to switch hands and easier (though less precise) scrolling is why
I usually prefer touchpads.

On the laptop I have a touchpad with buttons both above and below the touchpad
but no clicking or force sensing on the touchpad. I have it configured so that
all the buttons below are primary click and one of the buttons above is
secondary click and tapping is disabled(because no feedback). The goal was the
same, make it easy to use with either hand. The old MacBook trackpads that had
a button were great at this. Having one button to keep pressed with the thumb
made dragging easy on the trackpad.

On a six button touchpad there is potential for chording but since I didn't
get used to chording on a mouse I did not try it on a touchpad.

[1] [https://kprepublic.com/products/stainless-steel-bent-case-
fo...](https://kprepublic.com/products/stainless-steel-bent-case-for-
xd75re-60-custom-keyboard-acrylic-panels-acrylic-diffuser)

[2] [https://contour-design.co.uk/produkt/rollermouse-red/](https://contour-
design.co.uk/produkt/rollermouse-red/)

------
lelf
Bad touchpad is certainly not a good mouse. But I won’t trade MacbookPro’s
touchpad for any mouse. [I’d trade its keyboard though :( ]

~~~
pofjer
I can't imagine a life with a MBP touchpad and a mouse, but no keyboard,
though. /s

------
pessimizer
I didn't understand the complaint about click+drag, but then remembered that
other people use trackpads differently than I do: I turn off tap to click, let
my pointer finger rest on the left-click button, and my middle finger do all
of the movement on the pad - with pretty high acceleration, so I rarely move
out of an area of a square centimeter. That square centimeter gets me halfway
across the screen, and lifting the finger and retracing the same motion gets
me the other half. To right-click, I bend my ringfinger, to right-click and
drag I turn my hand to a more north-south position rather than the northwest-
southeast position it's normally in.

So when I'm using the trackpad to move the pointer and left-click, I'm barely
moving. It just looks like I'm quickly drawing tiny circles with my middle
finger. Left-click and drag is trivial and accurate.

If you use your forefinger for everything, I could see how a trackpad would be
annoying.

If there was any hardware design change I would make, it would be to always
have a second set of buttons at the top of the pad (which I have on the
thinkpad), but to lower the distance from the bottom to the top of the
trackpad to make using the top-right button easier to reach with a completely
relaxed splay of the fingers. This would also have the effect of making my
style of trackpad usage comfortable for both left and right handers, and the
two unused buttons, along the center line of the hand (beneath and above the
middle finger) can be mapped to other usages (such as center-click.) I might
in that case be tempted to map my compose key to the top-center click.

The big point is that if you use a trackpad with your middle finger, using
your pointer to left-click, it's an extremely relaxed position. The minor
point is that with this style, trackpads are pretty gigantic, and a one-inch
square track "spot" would be more than adequate, and permit a second row of
buttons to lie low enough to make right-clicking just as relaxed.

That was a lot to read, I hope I'm explaining this well.

------
lvturner
Tried trackpads in the past, and ended up with sore fingers from the repeated
drag fiction. I’m not the biggest fan of my mouse either - best device I had
was an old Logitech trackball, sadly they seem to have stopped making them now
and I haven’t found a suitable replacement.

~~~
jfoucher
They still make them but only wireless now. I have a couple of M570 and they
are one of the best trackballs IMO. I mostly use them for CAD though as I
could never get used to a trackpad for that. Trackpad for the rest though but
only because I’m too lazy to plug the trackball in every time.

~~~
lvturner
Thank you!! I could have sworn every time I looked in the past ~10 years
Logitech only did trackballs in the centre!

------
chrismorgan
Roughly 40% of the article is in parentheses, including half the paragraphs. I
found this amusing to contemplate, because I use parentheses a lot myself—it
was like I was reading something I’d written myself! I especially use
parentheses for entire lines on chat systems.

------
mrob
The strongest evidence for trackpads being objectively inferior to mice is the
lack of pro-level FPS players using them.

~~~
mattnewport
That's really just evidence that they are inferior for competitive FPS play.
You could equally say that the strongest evidence for mice being objectively
inferior to graphics tablets is the lack of pro artists using them for
drawing.

~~~
danielbarla
Your core point is interesting, and I'd have to agree (in the sense that the
nature of the task needs to be considered for the comparison to be
meaningful).

However, the main reason why artists use pads for drawing is purely for the
pressure sensitivity, which means we are comparing apples and oranges. As in,
3 axis controllers vs 2 axis. Without that difference, the counterexample
would be less striking, and meaningful and objective comparisons can be made.
E.g. between mice, joysticks, or handheld thumbpad sticks. For activities
which require both rapid movements and accuracy (which could be aiming in an
fps or clicking an icon), mice do tend to be objectively superior, on average.
I say / concede this as a full time trackball user (due to ergonomic reasons).

My main point being that some things are generalisable, and the no free lunch
theorem doesn't mean that each controller is meaningfully best at some niche.

~~~
mattnewport
I don't think pressure sensitivity is the main reason for using a graphics
tablet, although it is a valuable feature. Try signing your name, writing the
alphabet or drawing a circle with a mouse - even without pressure sensitivity
it is much easier and more precise to use a pen. Handwriting input doesn't
really need pressure sensitivity but is mostly only useful with a pen rather
than a mouse.

Most people prefer being able to write directly on the screen with a Cintiq or
Surface but separate graphics tablets are still popular. A few people learn to
draw quite well with a mouse but for most people using a pen works better.

~~~
danielbarla
I'm not sure I'd agree as to what is the main feature there; certainly most
people prefer writing using something resembling a pen / pencil, but I'd argue
that is mostly to do with the carry over from a previously learned skill
(which is nontrivial and schools spend years drilling into us as kids). Re:
pressure, I coincidentally I recently spent a fair bit of time researching
graphics tablets for art purposes, and generally the main point every
professional artist agreed on was "don't waste your money on a tablet that
doesn't have pressure sensitivity, you need it". It tends to also also
correctly simulate what they are already used to, which is the previous point.

The main thing though is that as much as you are probably irked by people
generalising overly much, I'm similarly irked when people go the opposite
direction and generalise too little. It tends to come up on many levels, a
silly example being /r/fitness's popular opinion about pushups which goes
along the lines of "doing a lot of pushups won't make you generally stronger
in the least, it just makes you able to do more pushups", which I'd argue is a
needless.

Again, I think you have an interesting point which can be considered further.
E.g, why are joysticks and yokes more popular (or thought to be superior) for
the controls of real planes or sims?. I suspect the fine control, and being
able to separate the axes / operate them more independently likely play a big
role. Hence, it's likely down to the task, or rather, groupings of similar
tasks.

~~~
mattnewport
I'm no artist but I prefer a pen over a mouse for drawing / writing. Pressure
sensitivity is great but I'd still take a pen without over a mouse for drawing
and I suspect most artists would agree. Yes you want pressure sensitivity but
no that's not the only reason to prefer a pen.

Familiarity may be a factor in using pens but it's a general human trait that
a precision grip [https://psychologydictionary.org/precision-
grip/](https://psychologydictionary.org/precision-grip/) works better for
certain types of fine detail tasks. It's not just a matter of familiarity with
non digital pens.

------
metaphor
8 years later, Johnny Lee's assertion[1] in his 5-minute presentation on _The
Myth of the Dying Mouse_ remains very much relevant.

[1]
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kuhVfuhCcG4](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kuhVfuhCcG4)

------
stevev
For me, gestures on an apple trackpad eliminated the need for a mouse. They
have had it for years and imo is one of the biggest differences in computing
experience between an Apple machine to a windows.

------
wkearney99
Pfft, you'll pry my MS Trackball Explorer from my cold dead hands.

Elecom, though, is making some interesting potential replacements...

------
SamReidHughes
As anybody that plays bullet (1 minute) chess can tell you. No trackpad can
measure up to a mouse. Not Apple, not Windows.

~~~
mcphage
> As anybody that plays bullet (1 minute) chess can tell you. No trackpad can
> measure up to a mouse.

That's not exactly a common requirement.

~~~
SamReidHughes
It doesn't mean I, a software developer, am substantially less productive with
a trackpad. It does mean a mouse is better for clicking, pointing, and drag
and drop.

------
szatkus
> Probably this means I should set up some keyboard bindings for 'paste'

Shift+Insert is already there.

------
rnvhhynr
Your problem is that you're using a bad trackpad with Windows; the fact that
your computer has a bad trackpad and you're using Windows doesn't make
trackpads bad.

Also many of the things you complain about would be solved if you learnt to
use your keyboard instead of using mouse gestures.

~~~
mattnewport
The article is about Linux not Windows trackpad use. Because three mouse
buttons have been pretty standard on Windows mice for a long time there is
quite a bit of software that makes use of them on both Linux and Windows, more
so than on a Mac where software could only assume one mouse button for a long
time. This does make trackpads a bit more of an adjustment on Windows and
Linux.

I use a large Wacom tablet in touch mode much of the time. It works pretty
well with gestures for left click, right click and left drag but you do end up
needing alternatives for right drag and middle click and drag because you run
out of fingers. That's an adjustment for software like Unity or Blender that
use them in their default control setups in Windows for actions that are not
suited to keyboard (like camera control).

~~~
rnvhhynr
Linux, that's even worse. At least Synaptics on Windows comes with a control
panel, on Linux you're stranded reading a man page, writing a file and putting
it in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/, then restarting Xorg a thousand times until you
get it right.

And then if you're using libinput instead of synaptics, which is the default
on most distros now... just forget about it, because whatever you need is
simply not implemented yet.

Using Linux on the desktop is a self-inflicted wound, and I can't believe this
guy would write such a post saying that "trackpads sucks" when he uses Linux.
Doing that is at best dishonest and at worst malicious.

~~~
abdullahkhalids
I have linux/libinput on my thinkpad T470. I have nothing to complain about
the trackpad. I can do almost everything a two-button mouse can do with just
the trackpad. I can left-click, right-click, multiple clicks, drag and scroll
with just the trackpad. There are three mouse buttons that let me do
additional things or some things much more easily.

Besides that there is an app Touchegg that lets you do more with the touchpad.
But I haven't bothered using it because I am pretty happy with my setup.

