
VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case - rmason
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-sentencing-idUSKCN1B51YP
======
fluxsauce
Not questioning his innocence, but will the executives involved be held to the
same legal standard?

EDIT: FTA

> U.S. prosecutors have charged eight current and former Volkswagen executives
> in connection with the diesel emissions cheating probe. Liang is one of the
> lowest-ranking executives charged so far.

> Another VW executive, Oliver Schmidt, has pleaded guilty and is scheduled to
> be sentenced in Detroit on Dec. 6. Under a plea agreement, Schmidt could
> face up to seven years in prison and a fine of between $40,000 and $400,000
> after admitting to conspiring to mislead U.S regulators and violating clean
> air laws.

~~~
rurban
> but will the executives involved be held to the same legal standard

Yes, they will, but Germany will not extradite them. They already made that
clear. And it is very unlikely that the german court system will prosecute
them. Haven't heard anything yet, because this might inflict the politicians
who backed this Diesel emission testing system for decades. They didn't even
go to the technical root yet.

Only one made the mistake to go for his holidays to Florida, so he was caught.

~~~
okreallywtf
Why will they not, do they fear they will not get a fair trial in the US or
will be punished worse than their crimes dictate?

~~~
quakeguy
In the land of "rolling coal" (0.0), and no TÜV+AU (0),(1), any sudden
punishment of violators from outside reeks of market protection.

(0)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_Überwachungsverein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_Überwachungsverein)

(1)
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abgasuntersuchung](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abgasuntersuchung)
(non english WP link, basically it means "emission checking")

Edit:

(0.0)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal)

~~~
wl
There's a big difference between a few rednecks illegally modifying their
personal vehicles and a company selling millions of vehicles that fail
emissions standards and trying to cover it up.

~~~
dom0
> selling millions of vehicles

VW sold approximately 475000 affected diesel vehicles in the US (compared to
approx. 84.5 million car sales in the same time period).

~~~
ams6110
This has always been my problem with the whole case. Yes they violated the law
and yes they probably should be some punishment but the real impact was almost
nothing, the vehicles would have met the restrictions of only a few years
prior, and the limits are almost entirely arbitrary and politically motivated.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
I agree. If we weren't on a forum filled with mostly people from CA who take
for granted things like byzantine HOA rules and intrusive bylaws we'd be
questioning why emissions requirements made "screw it, we're cheating on this
one" a defensible decision for anyone at VW. You shouldn't have to break the
law to be competitive.

~~~
greglindahl
"Screw it, we know how to meet the law, but we want to save money" is what VW
did. Not only did it result in people dying from air pollution, it also left
their competition wondering how VW did it so inexpensively.

~~~
tripzilch
the competition didn't get caught.

------
w_t_payne
The German automotive industry has a very aggressive culture. Our (German)
managers put enormous pressure on us to do _whatever_ it took to win deals. I
can clearly remember watching one of our engineering managers turning a very
unhealthy shade of green (~= #d2dbc9) as her boss turned the metaphorical
screws to pressure her to win our segment's first big deal -- Ironically with
VW as the customer.

Shamefully, I stayed silent as I watched my colleagues lie through their teeth
to the customer: claiming, for example, that a range of functions were already
mature and in series production when in reality they were little more than
vapourware at that point. I have worked for enough startups to understand the
concept of "fake it 'till you make it" \-- but there are limits. In
particular, the organisation needs to be prepared to follow through and make
good on promises made -- or come clean when it becomes apparent that something
cannot be done.

One needs to be especially careful when we are dealing with safety-involved
automotive autonomy functionality where the consequences of hastily engineered
and inadequately tested algorithms can sometimes be serious. I can well
remember getting the distinct impression that the engineering team for these
early products were essentially being set up as "fall guys" \-- we took
tremendous risks to win that early business, but it was clear that we would be
very much isolated and alone when or if any of the potential downsides were
realised.

~~~
jacquesm
> I stayed silent as I watched my colleagues lie through their teeth to the
> customer: claiming, for example, that a range of functions were already
> mature and in series production when in reality they were little more than
> vapourware at that point.

I worked for a guy like that. When I finally decided to call it quits he got
physical (chased me through the company premises with an iron bar, not
kidding).

Nowadays I would tell someone like that to fuck off at the first sign of such
behavior, when I was young I could still be bullied.

The frustrating part of all this is that I did some of my best work for this
asshole, simply because he'd promise the impossible to the customers and would
then rely on me to get his ass out of the fire, which I inevitably found a way
to do. Even so, it wore me out to the point where I had serious physical side
effects from the stress and it messed up a lot of my private relationships.

After that I took it easy and ran a start-up of my own. It seemed like a
vacation in comparison and only became stressful when it took off in a manner
that we had never foreseen. Still, the stress levels never even approached
what happened in those few years at that earlier company.

~~~
indigochill
>he'd promise the impossible to the customers and would then rely on me to get
his ass out of the fire, which I inevitably found a way to do

I think sometimes about this relationship between assholes and engineers. On
one hand it's entirely manipulative and destructive to the engineer on
multiple levels. On the other hand it has a track record of leading to
achievements engineers probably wouldn't even attempt otherwise (or of the
task actually being impossible).

But looking at the positive outcomes, how do we get those achievements without
assholes exploiting engineers? The sort of achievements that a reasonable
engineer wouldn't even attempt because the demands seem unrealistic?

~~~
w_t_payne
You can lead from the front, carrot in hand, rather than sitting in the back
with a whip. I've worked every bit as hard, and far more productively, for
technical leaders who were visionary and inspirational rather than cruel and
machiavellian.

------
slavik81
There was much more information about his role in Bloomsburg last year. He was
head of the diesel competence unit in the US, and appears to have been
directly involved.

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-09/veteran-v...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-09/veteran-
vw-engineer-is-first-charged-in-u-s-in-emissions-scandal)

------
bitmapbrother
I was watching a german program on the VW scandal and was surprised to learn
that the German government allowed VW to issue a software patch to correct the
problem instead of offering to repair or compensate owners for the cars they
purchased. Even with the software patch the vehicles still released emissions
that were well above the norm.

Also, I don't believe any VW executives have ever been charged in Germany.

~~~
alkonaut
I was also very curious how they managed to get my '09 "fixed" somehow via a
simple software patch. I would have understood it if it had lost 20%
performance or got 20% higher fuel consumption - but that didn't happen.

So: if it was _that_ easy to fix legally why did they cheat in the first
place??

Of course it can't be that easy. So of course my car is still polluting over
the limit. And I think this is a story that isn't getting the coverage it
needs. A proper fix for my car would have been to install an AdBlue system
into it, at great cost. Had they been forced to do that - or buy back the car
- they would be in serious financial trouble.

That also answers why the German government is giving them some leeway here:
it's not exactly in their interest to kill Volkswagen.

~~~
dom0
> That also answers why the German government is giving them some leeway here:
> it's not exactly in their interest to kill Volkswagen.

While the federal government does not have a direct stake (apart from all the
tax euros), the fine state of Lower Saxony holds a 20 % share (which actually
causes the MP and his economics minister to always be on the board of
directors).

~~~
icebraining
Why would prosecuting the executives kill WV, though?

~~~
madez
If VW is forced to make all regulations-breaching cars to be compliant and
compensate the owner for down-time and loss in fuel-efficiency or performance,
that might mean the end to VW. VW is touched softly, just like Intel, for
example. I think both the car and the IC industries should be more regulated,
and the regulations should be effectively enforced.

~~~
icebraining
As far as I know, they _did_ have to make the cars compliant. At least my
colleague, who had an affected Skoda, got it "fixed" for free, including a
temporary replacement car.

~~~
alkonaut
If there was a demand that the "fixed" cars were actually tested and were now
under the limit while not losing more than say 5% in economy or power (or else
owners would have to be compensated) it would likely find that the cars fail
one or more of these requirements.

I believe it's now a middle ground: cars lost "only" about 5-10%
performance/fuel eco, and they are still only half way to the NOx limit.

------
azinman2
So purposefully modifying cars to illegally pollute to huge levels, causing
deaths and disease from said pollution gets a few years in prison? The range
of time people are charged with is so arbitrary and usually inconsequential
with mass scale “white collar” crimes, and totally excessive for the poor
and/or minorities. It’s insane.

~~~
simonbarker87
> causing deaths and disease from said pollution

Has that been proven? Serious question, I've not kept up with the ins and outs
of the case.

UPDATE: I should clarify, I mean specifically the increased pollution these
VWs created not just pollution in general.

~~~
azinman2
It seems reasonable to extrapolate given it’s 40x over the limit and we
already know pollution kills (both directly as a toxin and indirectly through
climate change).

~~~
kilotaras
NOx contribute wery little to climate change though.

------
fastball
Can we get the title changed to "VW engineering exec"?

As it stands, I think it's a bit misleading

~~~
dang
Agreed; done.

------
matthberg
> Liang is one of the lowest-ranking executives charged so far.

While I approve of strict punishments for such terrible actions, I worry that
this is a case of a "scapegoat" being advertised as punished, so that the real
decision makers higher up can go with lighter reprimands. Since the scapegoat
_is_ guilty of the crime, the deception is much easier.

~~~
valuearb
He's welcome to testify about the CEO's involvement, I'm sure the Justice
Department would be more than happy to make that case. But sometimes the only
evidence can only convict those most directly responsible.

------
throwitaway333
I worked on a 'sharing economy' service writing software. We had a project
that boiled down to "we've found a legal way to start skimming tips without
the users realizing it". It was technically legal. It was completely
unethical. It was bullshit.

I called management out on it, said that I did not want to wind up like a
"rogue engineer" at VW when the shit hits the fan, because I felt our upper
management would gladly throw us all under the bus. "Don't worry, this is all
perfectly legal within the contracts". They didn't understand the difference
between "this is illegal" and "this is unethical".

I quit the company. I won't put loyalty to a company head of ethics, morals.

These VW engineers? Maybe the executives were the big fish who made the call,
but they were the ones who agreed to make it happen. They are just as liable,
in my view.

(I hear the project was eventually canned. The users who were beta tested on
it immediately realized what was happening and threatened to quit.)

------
tyingq
I wonder if he could win a civil suit against VW and their role in coercing
him down this road.

~~~
Geekette
Doubtful. He made his decisions as an adult, fully aware of what was
right/legal - he could have refused but chose not to.

~~~
tyingq
True, they did make a choice. The nuance I'm interested in is whether a person
in this situation would reasonably assume they would lose their job, or
promotion opportunities, etc, if they didn't do the illegal task as asked. And
if so, does that create a civil liability?

~~~
schneems
Sounds a bit like "Superior orders"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders).

> that the defense of superior orders was no longer considered enough to
> escape punishment; but merely enough to lessen punishment

~~~
tyingq
Not really. It wouldn't change the person's criminal sentence. Just give them
a path to recover lost wages, etc, from the employer, in a completely
different venue.

------
vfclists
What about the banksters from 2008? Inspite of trillion dollar frauds, money
laundering and what nots no banker has been prosecuted.

Is it because the engineering companies do not bribe the legislature enough,
or because there is no threat to the stability of the financial system if they
are prosecuted?

The moral of the story is if you are going to engage in major fraud, make sure
the economy will be seriously destabilized if you and your cronies are
prosecuted.

------
convefefe
James Liang engineer for VW was sentenced to 40 months in prison and ordered
to pay a $200,000 fine.

OTOH Michael Horn CEO of VW and person who signed off on the emissions testing
cheating walked away with a 50 million pension.

Of course, you often get no choice in what you do when upper management says
'just do it'. It's that, or asshat exec decides to wreck your career, fire
you, etc, etc,

A federal judge in Detroit ... of course..

~~~
throwitaway333
In regards to the execs and CEO: I completely agree that it's terrible.

> you often get no choice in what you do when upper management says 'just do
> it'

You always have a choice. You can quit.

If your boss told you to rob a bank, would you do it? It's a more severe crime
but it's still your boss saying "break the law or I'll fire you". It's simply
a matter of where you draw the line, of how far into unethical territory
you're willing to go for money.

------
crististm
Engineers should really get (remedial) classes on telling management to fuck
off politely. On company time.

------
bluetwo
Seems like a lot of nerves were struck with this article.

------
sqeaky
How do we the title changed so it says this guy was an executive?

At the time I write this post many comments are claiming the execs will go
free and this guy just took a fall. The article clearly says this guy was a
low ranking executive, other executive were charged and this guy plead guilty,
implying he rolled on them (but not stating that).

~~~
ascagnel_
The article does not make that obvious -- it only mentions that Liang was an
executive in the third-to-last paragraph, after referring to him as a "former
engineer".

It's also possible that Liang was an engineer at the time of the crime, and
then was moved to an executive position:

> Liang is still employed by Volkswagen but no longer works as an engineer.

------
jamesred
Shouldn’t there be a distinction between the person writing the code and the
person who chooses to use the code? An engineer shouldn’t be responsible for
knowing the law and doesn’t have access to corporate lawyers that executives
do. You could argue that there are legitimate reasons to write code that’s
illegal for research purposes but never implemented. Why should an engineer be
responsible for that?

~~~
danso
I'm in favor of punishing the people in charge, but I'm reluctant to overlook
rank-in-file just because they were just following orders. It feels
hypocritical, as an engineer, for me to say that engineers should be
recognized not just for raw technical experience but for their ability to be
creative artists and humane leaders, and then argue that senior engineers and
their ideas and work have no agency or worldly responsibility beyond a
requirements document.

According to the OP:

> _Federal prosecutor Mark Chutkow countered that Liang was a "pivotal figure"
> in designing the systems used to make Volkswagen diesels appear to comply
> with U.S. pollution standards, when instead they could emit up to 40 times
> the allowed levels of smog-forming compounds in normal driving._

This wasn't just someone who wrote some code that he didn't intend to be
misused. This is someone who used his expertise to direct the implementation
of an unlawful system. To be successful in that, it seems you'd have to have a
decent understanding of the law that you intend to break.

~~~
Pulcinella
In addition, I would say there is value in trying to tell people, "Don't stick
your neck out for corporate boss! Otherwise you may go to jail and they may go
free."

------
ballenf
There's a flip side implication of this decision: it gives tremendous autonomy
to engineers to stand up to management. It can empower legions of engineers to
do the right thing when faced with pressure to do wrong.

Maybe I'm trying too hard to find a silver lining.

I'm angered at the hypocrisy of the management getting to sleep in their own
beds for the next 40 months and their kids having no indication of their
parent's role in this crime, while this engineer's reputation gets smeared for
life. Not that he was innocent, but being the lone fallguy for a billion
dollar corporation doesn't particular feel like justice.

~~~
sqeaky
Read the article. This guy was an executive and 7 or 8 other executive were
charged as well.

He happened to be the executive in charge of engineering. He also plead
guilty.

~~~
lacksconfidence
Indeed calling him an engineer, while technically true, suggests something
different than what happened. He is an executive, not a line engineer.

~~~
dang
Ok, we've put "engineering executive" in the title above.

------
rmason
Here's a case where a guys boss instructs him to write code that lets the
company cheat emissions tests and to keep quiet about it. I wonder if he's
thought that it would have been far better to have refused, even if it meant
losing his job.

~~~
angersock
Not only that, but the dude apparently cooperated with the investigators.

Fuck the judicial system in the US.

~~~
Geekette
Given the typical pattern of cooperation and plea deals, I assume his
cooperation was in exchange for lesser charges and/or a relatively lenient
sentence, i.e. it could have been much worse without.

~~~
angersock
Sure, but that doesn't mean it's any better.

"I'll only break your hand instead of cutting it off" doesn't mean you're
getting a good deal.

~~~
Pulcinella
Well he still broke the law(and not unjust ones either). Just because you
cooperate doesn't mean you should get off free.

------
nnfy
Clickbait title. This was not a lowly engineer. This was an executive
engineer.

~~~
dang
Indeed. We added 'executive' above.

------
bitL
Note to engineers: managers will throw you under the bus as they see fit.

~~~
Etheryte
If you don't have the time to read the actual article, read the other comments
- the managers are also facing jail-time. Also, this guy wasn't a regular
engineer, he's also an executive, the title is misleading.

~~~
bitL
That's an interesting definition of "executive". I guess journalism these days
can make an exec out of anyone - can't wait to read about e.g. a toilet
cleaning executive.

~~~
maxerickson
In another article his role is described as "head of the Diesel Competence
unit in the U.S."

Maybe not directly comparable to a janitor.

~~~
bitL
It was a hyperbole; anyway, his current position is irrelevant, important is
what positions he held while developing this software (which was deployed for
many years). Article mentions "Liang is still employed by Volkswagen but no
longer works as an engineer".

~~~
maxerickson
The article I got that from was from when he entered his plea, I'm pretty sure
it is describing the role he had that was related to the charges.

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-09/veteran-v...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-09/veteran-
vw-engineer-is-first-charged-in-u-s-in-emissions-scandal)

~~~
bitL
I remember when this erupted first; VW management immediately started talking
about "rogue engineers" adding such a functionality and promised punishing
them. There was uproar over it here on HN if you look back.

------
btian
No. Nothing will happen to top executives.

There's a lot of insight as to why from "The Chickenshit Club: Why the Justice
Department Fails to Prosecute Executives"

~~~
djrogers
Your cynicism apparently outweighs your reading skills:

Quoting directly FTA: "U.S. prosecutors have charged eight current and former
Volkswagen executives in connection with the diesel emissions cheating probe.
Liang is one of the lowest-ranking executives charged so far.

Another VW executive, Oliver Schmidt, has pleaded guilty and is scheduled to
be sentenced in Detroit on Dec. 6. Under a plea agreement, Schmidt could face
up to seven years in prison and a fine of between $40,000 and $400,000 after
admitting to conspiring to mislead U.S regulators and violating clean air
laws."

~~~
sqeaky
The article flatly says that this person an executive and that several other
executives were charged.

This thread is fulling of people who didn't read a tiny well written article.

~~~
btian
Oliver Schmidt is a low level manager in the Detroit office.

Not what would come to people's mind when "executive" is mentioned.

But I'm sure VW wants you to think their high level executives are being
punished.

~~~
sqeaky
The article called him an executive, it might be wrong.

If the article is wrong then we should be talking about that (and the other
executives that the article claims were charged) and not just presuming
things.

~~~
btian
What is an "executive"?

If a sales executive considered executive?

If a person has 5 reports, is he/she an executive?

It's impossible to be wrong to call everyone working in a company "executive",
and both VW and DOJ know this.

------
neves
Great news! Now everything goes. Executives doesn't need to have moral
obligations to oversee their employees. Any problem, send them to jail.

~~~
djrogers
He just happens too be the first person sentenced - there are many others, and
the execs above him are facing higher fines and longer sentences.

------
bluetwo
A good lesson to learn.

"I was just following orders" is just as poor of an excuse for engineers as it
was for nazis.

~~~
dang
Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to HN? (Especially with
Nazis.)

------
pessimizer
Less time than he'd get for robbing a gas station.

------
snvzz
So instead of fining the company out of existence, they're putting a random
engineer in prison?

~~~
drunken-serval
VW has agreed to pay out up to $25 billion in buybacks and fines.

------
abritinthebay
In these comments: A bunch of people who clearly didn't read the article.

~~~
dang
Would you please not post unsubstantive comments here? Just because a thread
is bad doesn't mean you should worsen it.

If you know more than others, don't put them down; teach us.

Edit: your recent comments have been crossing into incivility and you've done
that (and we've warned you) many times before. If you keep doing this we will
ban you, so would you please (re-)read
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
and start being scrupulously civil when commenting here? We'd greatly
appreciate your help to stave off the decline of this place at least a little
longer.

------
paulus_magnus2
Corporations aren't democracies, closer to tyrannies (Chomsky). You refuse
work, look for new one...

Waiting for his boss to get 400 months, and 10x until CEO level. They killed
people ffs.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>They killed people ffs

You say that as though they shot them or discussed the possible body count in
a meeting.

Sure, people died as a far downstream result of a bunch of cars polluting a
lot more than they supposedly did. The effect is far enough downstream that
it's not really relevant. The alternative to VW breaking the law was not a
pollution free world. People die as a result of things that are technically
preventable all the time but society does not have the resources to allocate
to preventing every "preventable" death or disease.

We as a society don't judge people by every downstream effect of their
actions.

The lithium mine required to supply some of the materials for the computer or
phone you typed that poorly thought out comment on probably isn't doing good
things to the people that work at it.

I'm sure you own a few products that "fund terrorism" (or some other
boogeyman) somewhere up the supply chain.

The world is a dirty place. Trying to make an example out of everyone who
contributes to it just makes it dirtier.

~~~
paulus_magnus2
>Sure, people died as a far downstream result of a bunch of cars polluting a
lot more than they supposedly did

Breaking antipollution rules was pretty close upstream. Say boss wants to
dumps cyanide into water supply, asks you to switch samples used for testing.
Close enough for me to blow whistle.

It's pretty well known NOx shorten our lives (NOx + H20 = nitric acids in
lungs)

>a bunch of cars polluting a lot more than they supposedly did 40x in NOx

They knew and pushed us into them (anyone else advertised diesel?)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNS2nvkjARk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNS2nvkjARk)

Lastly it's the particles Pm2.5 Pm10. Especially dangerous to children

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25947213](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25947213)

~~~
garaetjjte
I might be wrong, but isn't using EGR (to reduce NOx) actually increase
particulates in exhaust?

~~~
dom0
Correct, EGR increases particulates across the board. Another alternative is
to reduce NOx creation in the burning process, which also increases
particulate emissions and DPF clogging.

------
ruleabidinguser
The worker goes to jail? What about the exec

~~~
notyourday
Every single boss that the engineer had ( all the way to the CEO ) should be
go to jail for that if that engineer went to jail.

~~~
aianus
Why? Is Pizza Hut's CEO criminally responsible if I run a red light to deliver
a pizza because I'm afraid of being late?

Edit: Please explain how the VW case is any different than my analogy

~~~
B1FF_PSUVM
Actually, he should be. Unless he can show you had the training and the
incentives to not do that, so it was entirely your fault.

If you're afraid with a reason, someone else did that to you.

(Those people have spreadsheets with everything weighed. Raise their costs,
they'll cut out the psycho.)

~~~
21
Obeying the traffic laws is your responsibility, not the company's.

Otherwise the next time the CEO asks you to destroy the competition you'll say
that he didn't specifically told you to not actually take that literally so it
isn't your fault that you shot a guy in the head.

------
relyks
Aren't the ones in charge (e.g. executives, managers, etc.) responsible for
the wrongdoing and not the workers carrying out the criminal activity? I'm
surprised his lawyer didn't make a claim that he was just "following orders."
There have been countless recreations of Stanley Milgram's obedience
experiment and its results have been consistent. People are willing to obey
and comply to authority figures, even if it's for a detrimental cause. Isn't
it unlikely that the engineer acted on his own?

~~~
c3534l
Just "following orders" doesn't even work for soldiers, let alone criminals.

~~~
TwoBit
And it can't, because that would enable a huge loophole.

