
How to Earn an Elite Law Degree in the United States for $28k - burritofanatic
http://www.williamha.com/how-to-earn-an-elite-law-degree-for-only-28746/
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Havoc
Only issue with this is that the German taxpayers might grow wary of Americans
performing these drive-by educations at their expense. The entire system is
based on the assumption that a reasonable portion will stay in Germany &
contribute towards society.

The whole article & the mindset behind it is a little sad in my opinion. To
borrow a reddit phrase "this is why we can't have nice things".

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bruceb
Seems this could be solved partially with a rebate system. You stay you get $X
back (or in this case euros).

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Havoc
That would be one option. The current system is working as is though - no
enforcement & almost honour based. It would be nice to keep it that way.

I get why Americans would do this given their crushing education costs, but at
the end of the day the German education isn't "free" either...the taxpayer
foots the bill & in the long run said taxpayer wants to receive some benefit
for that money.

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unimportant
This is what Germans would call a milk maid calculation.

Your German would need to be really advanced for you to have a realistic
chance with the degree.

Secondly the entry requirements to study law are really high (if you're
German, you'd need to be a straight A student, not sure about foreigners).

There's also no way that you'd pay 280EUR in Munich for rent, even in a dorm
or shared housing.

The luckiest guy I knew had a tiny student apartment for 500EUR.

If you aren't eating instant noodles all day, there's also no way you'll
survive on the grocery budget.

A realistic food budget is 300EUR a month, even if you don't eat out.

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pdabbadabba
This is an interesting strategy but, while UT is (in my estimation) an elite
law school, I'm not sure a 1 year LLM from UT would get you nearly as far in
the U.S. job market as a J.D. So, while the title may technically be accurate,
it misses the fact that not all "elite law degrees" are equally useful.

That said, it saves you so much money, that maybe this approach nonetheless
has merit. Though if you have the chops to pull this scheme off, you could
probably do what many top-tier aspiring law students do today: apply to a
variety of schools, and go to the best school that gives you a large
scholarship.

~~~
anigbrowl
I think it would depend a lot on what area of law you wanted to practice, and
on where you got your undergraduate law degree. It could be very useful to
have a foreign degree if one aimed to work in commercial, shipping, or
immigration law, for example. And knowledge of British law, Commonwealth law,
or Civil law as well as American law would surely be useful for an academic
career.

~~~
pdabbadabba
True enough. But the point is that this would greatly limit your options
relative to a JD. If you happen to be interested in a field where a German law
degree would be a benefit, then great. But that is probably not true for most
people.

Having been tangentially involved in legal recruiting, U.S. law firms are very
much looking for people who satisfy particular criteria, and these criteria
are developed with the assumption that a student went through the conventional
American legal education system. (Think, GPA, law journal experience, moot
court, judicial clerkships [yes, you can get one with an LLM, but it will be
much harder without the faculty connections you build over several years],
etc.) In short, they are looking for a "certain kind" of resume. For most, a
German law degree with a U.S. LLM will not readily meet that test. I'm not
saying, of course, that it will be impossible to get a job. I'm just saying
that a person with that sort of resume will be swimming upstream compared to
her UT friends with JDs.

It might be tempting to say that you would not want to work someplace that
takes this approach to hiring. But, for better or worse, most people probably
would.

~~~
steven2012
Having a challenging interview process with $30k in debt vs being $250k in the
hole after graduating sounds like a pretty good trade off to me. I'd rather
take the harder interview and little debt rather than a slightly easier
interview and a crushing $250k debt before starting a day of work.

And given the current unemployment rate of lawyers, it would make even more
sense to do it the way the blog post describes.

~~~
pdabbadabba
> Having a challenging interview process with $30k in debt vs being $250k in
> the hole after graduating sounds like a pretty good trade off to me. I'd
> rather take the harder interview and little debt rather than a slightly
> easier interview and a crushing $250k debt before starting a day of work.

Maybe so, and I've said as much. This depends on your specific career goals.
But note that "challenge interview process" here is really a euphemism for
"will get a significantly smaller range of job offers."

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geebee
Overall, I really liked this article, and I appreciate not just the strategy
but that it encourages people to start thinking about different strategies.

A few things that may or may not be nitpicks… first, can you really practice
law in every jurisdiction with an LLM? I was under the impression that this is
only true of some states. I may read up more on this. Also, I believe Germany
does allow dual citizenship under some circumstances - I _think_ if you're not
German and acquire German citizenship, you can keep the old one, but not the
other way around - again, if this would affect you in any way, well, I hope
you'd research beyond someone's semi-informed comment on the internet ;).

As a side-topic, I was intrigued by some of the recent all-online JD degrees
offered in the US. There were a few articles on this a while back.

[http://abovethelaw.com/career-files/the-best-online-law-
scho...](http://abovethelaw.com/career-files/the-best-online-law-schools-jd-
and-llm-programs/)

These degrees are absolutely not elite, though St Francis seems at first
glance to have a decent student body. I think the approach can work for a
certain type of law career. I don't think this would be advisable for the 23
year old history major with no real skills or work experience other than a law
degree - that person would want to get the most elite degree possible. But the
story about the mid career structural engineer who discovered he was offering
as much legal as engineering advice (liability for building codes, etc), and
who has a head council job lined up once bar member ship is achieved, sure, an
on line degree probably makes perfect sense.

~~~
burritofanatic
In regards to your question as to whether you can practice law in every
jurisdiction, I'm starting to see that some jurisdiction are either silent, or
prohibit someone with a foreign law degree + LLM to sit for their bar exam.
But if you include the ability of reciprocity after admission to the Texas
state bar, it opens up a lot of doors.

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Romoku
If only there was one of these for computer science degrees. I stopped part
way through my degree because the tuition was ridiculous ($1000 per credit
hour). Now I'm at a point where I want to finish, but all undergraduate
programs in my area are oriented at full time students. The only place with
online and night classes has equally ridiculous tuition ($60,000 to finish the
program).

~~~
ma2rten
The same applies. Just study in Germany. No need to go a US school for 1 year.

~~~
electriclove
And then get your Masters in CS at Georgia Tech for ~$7k:
[http://www.omscs.gatech.edu/](http://www.omscs.gatech.edu/)

~~~
ma2rten
Not even. Unlike lawyers CS masters can work around the world, a German Master
will do just fine.

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barry-cotter
A German Law degree will take five years, not four. UT Austin is not elite by
any meaning of the word. Rest of the article seems legit.

~~~
ZanyProgrammer
Is a German law degree a post graduate degree? I don't think its quite
accurate to compare a JD to a law degree that doesn't require a separate
undergrad degree.

~~~
barry-cotter
It's a five year direct entry undergraduate degree. German universities only
recently started granting Bachelor's and Master's degrees separately, instead
of having the Magister or Diplom (direct entry Master's) as the lowest degree.
Law and Medicine maintain the old model. Besides, German University
preparatory high schools are at least equivalent to an A.A./A.S.

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bane
U.S. Higher Ed _is_ expensive, So, I just planned out some degrees at my local
state schools to see what they go for (tuition only).

Year 1, 2 (graduate with an A.A./A.S. degree) - Community College: ~$4000/yr

Year 3,4 (graduate with a B.A./B.S. degree) - State School, starts as a
Junior: ~$11,000/yr

Undergrad: <$30,000

Grad Program:

Year 5,6 (same school, graduate with an M.A./M.S.) - State School ~$15k/yr

Grad Program: ~$30,000

Total Cost: ~$60,000

As an alternate:

Year 5,6 (same school, top-50 Law School, graduate with a J.D.) - State School
- ~$25k/yr

J.D. Program: ~$50,000

Total Cost B.X.+J.D. ~$80k

Total Cost B.X.+M.X.+J.D. ~$110k

Things have definitely gotten more expensive since I did something similar
(A.S.->B.S.->M.S.) for <$30k. But it's not the worst. If you work through it,
you can probably finish an M.X. program without debt (you "only" need to pay
off $10k per year). Even if you take loans, we're not talking a house. If you
get Pell Grants, it covers the A.X. degrees easily, and half the B.X. degrees.
I took some loans and paid them off within 5 years due to my increased earning
power. I'm pretty sure I could have structured my life to pay off 2-3x the
loans in about the same amount of time.

American Higher Ed. _is_ stupid expensive for bad reasons, but you can get at
least an undergrad for what you'd pay for a new decent family sedan. This
sounds crazy to most of my European readers, but unlike Europe, the U.S.
doesn't have 50% youth unemployment rates. _Most_ people out of college in
technical fields can get good jobs that pay far in excess of the local "decent
standard of living" allowing loans like this to get paid off quickly.

It's complicated, but it's not rocket science. I'm always a bit bothered by
people who talk about $200k undergrad programs like it's their only option.
Trust me, I'm ~20 years in on a career and you'll generally end up in the same
places as your elite-school colleagues within 5 years without the crushing
debt.

It's not rocket science.

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bruceb
The BBC article seems to underestimate costs a bit. There is 4k in travel
costs over 4 years assuming you visit home once a year. Some things cost more
in Europe (computers maybe 15% more). Also one could argue you have less of a
network of people if you go to school in one country but live in another. This
could be a significant cost but hard to measure.

This being said it is certainly worth exploring. Anyone earned a law degree
outside the US and then earned a LLM?

~~~
goatforce5
> Some things cost more in Europe (computers maybe 15% more)

Buy your computer and gadgets when you're in the US.

~~~
bruceb
Yes would be the way to go but your laptop brakes or gets stolen then you need
one now. Point is there are something you would have to buy at higher cost
there.

~~~
pluma
Lots of places offer student discounts. Unless you need an MBP, you can get a
decent laptop for cheap. We're talking about law students, it's not like they
need resource intensive software.

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littletimmy
Can you practice law in the US if you're trained in a different tradition of
law? I was under the impression Germany follows civil law, and the USA common
law.

~~~
burritofanatic
Author here, the LLM can be used as a bootcamp of sorts on American law for
foreign trained lawyers.

~~~
barry-cotter
AIUI almost all of the actual mandatory professional education in US law
school occurs in the first year, 1L. It's possible and occasionally useful to
do more focused professional study in 2L and 3L if you want to but you can
equally fill your schedule with Literature and the Law or the like. An MLS
(Master of Legal Studies) covers the same material as an Ll.M./1L, is open to
non lawyers and qualifies one for nothing.

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mcnett
"But what she’ll do for sure is waive into DC off the bat after passing in
Texas."

This is not possible. DC's admission on motion requires a five-year wait if
you do not have a J.D.

[http://www.dccourts.gov/internet/documents/rule46c3_admissio...](http://www.dccourts.gov/internet/documents/rule46c3_admission_on_motion-
without_exam.pdf)

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brkochman
There is a problem with this approach, and that is the fact that nobody in the
United States will recognize your university.

Want to make a great first impression? Graduate from Harvard, Stanford, or
MIT. Nobody is going to know the name of some random German university. At
least not in the United States.

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akhilcacharya
I really hate comments like this, I don't think 3 universities hold the
monopoly on impressiveness.

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dbushnel
Well, it is pretty much true though. Where I work, not even Cornell is
considered prestigious. You gotta have Harvard, Stanford, or MIT to stand out.

~~~
akhilcacharya
Dear God, I wonder how your colleagues would react to my future degree.

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rayiner
You can do something similar in the UK too. My brother's friend did her law
degree as an undergraduate at Oxford and an LLM here in the U.S. Law school as
three year graduate degree is a huge scam.

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hackerboos
Tuition in the UK is not free for foreigners. Foreigners (except EU) are not
entitled to borrow through the UK loans system.

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reagency
Silly to compare resident tuition for the LLM against nonresident tuition for
JD. Residency is equally easy in either case.

