
The SOS in my Halloween decorations - tlrobinson
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-45976946
======
ezoe
An American found a SOS message inside the Halloween decoration package,
saying the SOS writer is held at concentration camp, tortured and forced to
overwork.

She published the message and it was fact.

The writer fled to Jakarta. They've met.

Then, the writer was suspected to be killed by Chinese agent.

> was contacted by a suspected Chinese agent - and two months later he died of
> acute kidney failure. Despite a request from his ex-wife and sisters, there
> was no investigation into the cause of death. Leon is suspicious: "He had no
> kidney problems before and when I was there in Indonesia he seemed perfectly
> healthy."

A very good non-fiction dystopian novel.

~~~
stevenwoo
Yes, and three more points a.) his wife divorced him to have plausible
deniability and they were going to remarry and almost got there b.) one of his
coworkers helped him and was tortured and did not give him up which is unlike
anything popular media/the United States government tells us about torture c.)
160,000 Falun Gong survived the re education/organ extraction out of how many
knows whom entered, now we know roughly 1,000,000 Chinese Muslims Uyghurs have
been forced into re education camps.

~~~
randallsquared
_one of his coworkers helped him and was tortured and did not give him up
which is unlike anything popular media /the United States government tells us
about torture_

I don’t think even the most enthusiastic proponents would argue that it always
works, and surely popular media is full of protagonists on whom it was
ineffective.

------
Erwin
Wikipedia's summary shows long-running awareness and criticism of the practice
which had gone on since 1957. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-
education_through_labor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-
education_through_labor)

So that story and another article about womens' conditions in the camps was
the catalyst for change. Now imagine if the Portland newspaper was owned by a
larger company, who determined it was not in their interest to publish a story
whose veracity could not be fully determined and that could worse the
relations with their Chinese investors.

On the other hand it's sad that Humans Right Watch could go on for years about
this, and this personal story was enough to get people talking. Similar to
KSA's destruction of Yemen being hardly visible until the recent murder.

~~~
KozmoNau7
Yet another reason to not buy cheap made in China products. Don't buy those
"halloween in a box" things, or similar junk.

Prison labor+questionable environmental record+environmental cost of shipping
adds up to a really bad idea.

Just put together some stuff yourself, from scrap wood and stuff most people
have lying around anyway, instead of horrible styrofoam junk.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>Just put together some stuff yourself, from scrap wood and stuff most people
have lying around anyway

The intersection of HNers and DIYers is much smaller than you think. Also when
you're paying $2500 for a 500ft^2 apartment in SF you don't tend to hang on to
things like scrap wood.

~~~
KozmoNau7
In my experience, the hacker/DIYer/tinkerer crossover is pretty big. Certainly
in my circle of acquaintances.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
I agree but the crossover between the tech demographic and the DIY demographic
seems to mostly be with using software and electronics skills to have add
additional functionality to things. A few people will get into hobby CNC and
car tuning but people tend not to branch out into multiple expensive hobbies
so if electronics/software hacking is your thing you're probably not going to
go too deep into those.

Most people won't pick up woodworking skills until they own their own home and
need to maintain it and only people with woodworking skills will have a pile
of scrap wood around. Keeping scrap material in general around "because it
might be useful" is not something the HN crowd is generally predisposed to
doing.

Basically, we're mostly a bunch of office workers so expecting more than a
couple people to whip up decorations out of whatever is lying around is kind
of unrealistic since only a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of people
here are going to be in a position to do that.

And before everyone comments about how they're personally an exception and
they drag sheets of plywood home on the roof of their smart car I'm talking
about the typical case here.

~~~
leppr
Instead of focusing on the plywood part, let's just get back to the point that
"everyone can make DIY Halloween decorations", even if you live in a tiny
appartement. Pumpkins, candles, white sheet tied to a string for ghosts, and
then let your imagination run wild with scissors and kraft paper.

------
yardie
The CCP considers Falun Gong/Dafa to be a cult. And in some instances they can
certainly appear that way. A long time ago I had a chinese-american
girlfriend. And as we were walking past a Falun Gong demonstration in NYC she
remarked they were a dangerous cult. I asked why she would think that and her
response was that their practitioners self-immolate and only a lunatic would
do that. I've carried that thought with me ever since. Only recently have I
discovered the immolation demonstrations were, yet again, CCP propaganda.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
The "dangerous cult" thing would have been bullshit even if the immolation
stories were true, though. Self-immolation and other suicide protests are a
well-known way to bring attention to an overlooked cause.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-
immolation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation)

~~~
yardie
I think there are far better ways to bring attention to a cause and stay
alive. Immolation is a one and done thing and it may not leave the intended
result. Jim Jones[0] was an activist but do you think any remembers him for
that? No, he's remembered as a mass murdering cult leader.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones#Mass_murder_in_Jones...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones#Mass_murder_in_Jonestown)

~~~
PhasmaFelis
I don't know if it's an effective tactic, but when a desperate, oppressed
person chooses to peacefully martyr themself as an act of protest, dismissing
them as a "dangerous lunatic" seems deeply short-sighted.

And it has so little to do with Jim Jones brainwashing and murdering 900-odd
people that I'm really not sure why you brought that up.

------
lifeformed
Geeze, I didn't realize the faded paint look on cheap styrofoam decorations
were hand-scrubbed by slaves. Something about that hits me harder than other
stories of cheap labor. It's just such a frivolous forgettable item.

------
mml
Wow, they kinda buried the lede at the end there. He was apparently
assassinated after the publicity, from the sound of it.

~~~
dzdt
The lack of evidence that his death was an assassination is why this isn't the
lead. The other parts of the story are factual and supported by evidence.
Suspicions about the cause of his death are just that: suspicions.

~~~
Aeolun
Fairly strong suspicions, but the fact that they didn’t use that makes it real
reporting.

Also makes the impact of the story stronger as far as I’m concerned.

------
asnyder
This is the crazy part for me:

 _They suggested that she contact human rights organisations, so Julie rang up
and left messages with several - but she never received a reply._

What is up with non-replies from organizations? She reaches out and nothing.
It's not a Facebook Ad Request appeal (an aside, is crazy how non-responsive
they can be and get away with it) it's human rights!

------
ajnin
I keep wondering how some Chinese businesses can be profitable selling stuff
at what seems to be impossibly low prices (example :
[https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B00YMIKRTA/](https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B00YMIKRTA/)
0.97EUR, postage included). If cost of labour is removed from the equation
(slave labour), that can explain a lot.

~~~
setquk
Indeed. I just bought a £1.50 including delivery embedded switch mode power
supply yesterday.

~~~
gringoDan
This doesn't account for the labor costs, but Planet Money had a great
explanation of how shipping rates across borders work (and don't reflect true
costs):
[https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/08/01/634737852/epis...](https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/08/01/634737852/episode-857-the-
postal-illuminati)

~~~
setquk
I know the shipping rates system. It’s the entire supply chain that gets me.
How do they do that for £1.50 when I can’t get the parts for less than £15
here in huge volumes.

------
MrBingley
I am deeply disturbed by what we are seeing in China. The Great Firewall,
massive concentration camps in Xinjiang, a new "social credit" system - I
think the dystopia of 1984 is becoming a reality. I am afraid that as a
society we have the complacency that the "good guys" \- democracy, human
rights, freedom - will always win. Stalinism and facism eventually fell, but
the Communist Party of China is still going strong, and seems to be more than
able to extend its grip to the 21st century.

~~~
legionof7
And no one will stand up to them because they are too economically and
culturally powerful.

~~~
TaylorAlexander
This to me is a reminder why it is so important that the people control the
means of production. Whether it be the Chinese Government or Amazon,
concentrated power leads that power to make anti social decisions. Harm to the
environment, harm to individuals, and harm to society can be incentivized by
concentration of power.

I believe a vitally important way to fight those powers is to build
independent people-first power. We can do it. Our earth is so productive now
that it’s possible to live like a king without hurting others. But we must
abstain from buying this cheap plastic garbage like the product the woman
found the note in. Buying products we know will become waste, or whose workers
we can’t account for, means we are directly supporting the destruction of the
earth and of society.

We have to stand up. We must. There is no other way to change. Not voting, not
blogging. We must stop being consumers of harmful products and use our money
to support organizations that truly represent change.

~~~
nemo846
> people control the means of production

Technically speaking, Amazon’s shareholders are people too - they aren’t part
of the government.

Should we mandate that workers own 50% of every corporation?

Decision making is going to be much harder as you have to poll the workers to
get a majority vote.

What happens if the corporation gets super powerful? It’s still a
concentration of power - the executive and the workers of the company.

~~~
ardy42
>> it is so important that _the_ people control the means of production

> Technically speaking, Amazon’s shareholders are people too - they aren’t
> part of the government.

You left out a _very_ important word from your quote of the GP that's critical
to the GP's meaning. I quoted him more fully and emphasized the unquoted word,
_the_ , above.

 _The people_ != some random group of people who aren't part of the
government. _The people_ should be understood as all the people of the nation.
"People," by itself, could be a small (or large) group of oligarchs. Those are
_very_ different things.

> Should we mandate that workers own 50% of every corporation?

> Decision making is going to be much harder as you have to poll the workers
> to get a majority vote.

Democracies have a lot of experience with representative bodies that can
support faster decision-making while still having some accountability to the
people. It's a straw-man to to present worker representation as being direct
democracy for every decision.

~~~
nemo846
> The people != some random group of people who aren't part of the government.
> The people should be understood as all the people of the nation. "People,"
> by itself, could be a small (or large) group of oligarchs. Those are very
> different things.

That’s the thing. Anyone can be a shareholder of a corporation. There is
nothing preventing anyone from buying shares. You just have to be willing to
risk your money to buy said shares that may or may not yield any returns -
i.e. risk throwing away your money.

> Democracies have a lot of experience with representative bodies that can
> support faster decision-making while still having some accountability to the
> people. It's a straw-man to to present worker representation as being direct
> democracy for every decision.

On a separate note, THE people already have democratic control over the most
powerful organization in the land, their government.

The government can unilaterally (corporations have no real say) set laws and
even break up corporations or even just outright seize them (i.e.
nationalization).

~~~
ardy42
> That’s the thing. Anyone can be a shareholder of a corporation. There is
> nothing preventing anyone from buying shares.

Are you serious? There's nothing preventing anyone from buying shares, _except
having lots of money to spare_. The people include a great many who don't.
_That 's_ the thing.

Then you have things like share classes with massively disproportionate voting
power and individuals with massively more money than is typical.

The people _aren 't_ going to find representation and control through
shareholding.

> On a separate note, THE people already have democratic control over the most
> powerful organization in the land, their government.

One difficulty with the current system is that the actions the people can take
to influence the government are too remote from the use of that government's
power, so in the end it does a poor job diffusing the "concentrated power"
that the GGGP post was talking about. This is true especially in the present
day, when that "concentrated power" has learned to wield its influence to
blunt the people's electoral influence over the government.

~~~
nemo846
Guess it’s the same everywhere. Downvotes if you disagree.

~~~
ardy42
> Guess it’s the same everywhere. Downvotes if you disagree.

BTW, if you're not aware, I can't downvote you.

I doubt the downvotes are due to an ideological disagreement or anything like
that. If I had to guess the reason, it's that the ideas you're expressing here
just don't have much merit and are pretty tone deaf to boot. They're not that
much different than saying a penniless, starving man should just buy food,
which you personally find pretty affordable as a well-compensated software
engineer.

------
JazzXP
This was a tough read emotionally, especially the ending. Seems crazy to go
out of their way for that (if true) once the damage has been done. Are the
Chinese government that vindictive?

~~~
djaychela
If they did do it, I would imagine it's to send out a message to others - you
may leave China, but that may not be enough to keep you alive. That's a strong
message to send to dissenters.

~~~
JazzXP
Oh I didn't think of that aspect. Yeah, that's very true.

------
patorjk
The articles says that Sun Yi wrote around 20 letters, does this mean there
are ~19 other people who got a letter but said nothing? It makes me wonder who
often this kind of thing is tried but gets no response from the recipient of
the letter.

~~~
eiaoa
> The articles says that Sun Yi wrote around 20 letters, does this mean there
> are ~19 other people who got a letter but said nothing? It makes me wonder
> who often this kind of thing is tried but gets no response from the
> recipient of the letter.

Not necessarily: Some of the letters could have been intercepted in China.
Others could have made it to people who cared but were less successful in
getting media attention. Still more could have been destroyed, unread, with
unsold inventory.

