
Star Control II - doppp
https://www.filfre.net/2018/12/star-control-ii/
======
evdev
Yes, it's my favorite game of all time. No, I'm not sure you can really "get"
the experience today. One thing older games were able to do was use time and
boredom(!) for effect in a way that mostly doesn't exist nowadays with so many
more well-made games with "optimized" reward systems.

I think of Grim Fandango, where a lot of the effect of the narrative comes in
the way scrounging for clues by trial and error makes it feel as if you
_really were_ stuck in that town for a year. Play through quickly with a
strategy guide and you won't actually get the effect of the environment.

Or take the difference between the original Zelda and the later games: I'd say
the fact that the original completely lacked the well-marked trail of where
you were supposed to be going and what you were supposed to be interacting
with made it seem as if you had "found" a smaller part of a wider world, and
you were reacting to its logic.

Star Control II did both of these things as well as any game has. The reasons
for your actions were always intrinsic (not to make "1/5" go to "3/5" and then
"5/5", quest completed!) and your course through the game was meaningful
because it took place in an economy of choice, effort, and time that was
consistent and weighty.

Beyond navel gazing, I think the real upshot is when something like Breath of
the Wild is so universally adored, part of what you're seeing is all the
potential being left on the table by the current paradigm of gerbil wheels
with scrolling backdrops.

~~~
mratzloff
When I look back at my favorite games of all time, they all evoke this feeling
of "I can go anywhere and do anything. There's so much to do and see, and I'm
a little nervous to venture out because I'm not sure I'll be able to find my
way back."

Star Control II is that game. So is Ultima VII, and several Infocom games that
filled my imagination and seemed bigger than they were. Before the era of a
complete walkthrough a click away that will lead you by the nose.

The turning point was voiced dialogue. Once that became the norm, content
became exponentially more expensive to produce, and so the size of the worlds
shrank.

~~~
hjek
Star Control II _has_ voiced dialog[0].

[0]: [https://packages.debian.org/jessie/uqm-
voice](https://packages.debian.org/jessie/uqm-voice)

~~~
patrec
Not the original, only the later 3DO adaptation.

~~~
novaleaf
maybe, but eventually it was added for PC. I played StarControl2 about a
decade too late, and it had spoken dialogue.

~~~
patrec
Sure, but the context was whether StarControl was already an instance of a
game where other content creation had to compete for resources with spoken
dialogue. It wasn't.

------
setr
Just to make sure its known, the game source code was released to its fans in
2002. It has since been maintained under the subtitle The Ur-Quan Masters, and
plays on everything.

It is freely available here:
[http://sc2.sourceforge.net/](http://sc2.sourceforge.net/)

Play it.

~~~
aidenn0
Nit pick, it's based off of the source code for the 3DO port rather than the
original PC game.

It's also curious that TFA claims it never had a console port, and then later
on mentions that the open source version is based off of the 3DO source.

~~~
trynewideas
Specifically from TFA:

> Star Control was ported to the Sega Genesis, but, as it happened, Star
> Control II would never get the same honor, perhaps because its sales didn’t
> quite justify the expense and/or because its complexity was judged unsuited
> to the console market.

I think in context, they mean it never got a port to the Genesis as SC1 did.

TFA does also mention the 3DO console port in the context of the Crystal
Dynamics acquisition, a few paragraphs before talking about the source code.

------
catern
>One solution might have been to tie the evolving galaxy to the player’s
progress through the plot rather than the wall clock, a technique pioneered in
Infocom’s Ballyhoo back in 1986 and used in countless narrative-oriented games
since. It can convey the impression of rising danger and a skin-of-the-teeth
victory every time without ever having to send the player back to square one.
In the end, the player doesn’t care whether the exhilarating experience she’s
just had is the result of a meticulous simulation coincidentally falling into
place just so, or of a carefully manipulated sleight of hand. She just
remembers the subjective experience.

Ugh, I've played many games like this, and while it's true that they do have
advantages, I think they're a poor choice in open-world games like Star
Control II, where there are many different things you can do at any one
moment. If I can just ignore the world-ending threat and mess around with side
quests with zero consequences, it really makes me not take the threat
seriously. Plus it's much less immersive when the evolving galaxy doesn't
evolve independent of my actions - it's easy to perceive games that only
progress the world when I hit some specific milestone in the main story.

IMO, "the world only moves when you do" is the safe and boring choice when it
comes to stories. A truly independently evolving world like Star Control II's
is radical and much more interesting - and if it was more common for games to
evolve in wall-clock-time, you wouldn't have this issue of players having
their playthrough unexpectedly ruined.

~~~
aidenn0
I think the second option of selecting your own deadline is probably much
better, though it might lead to players never discovering quasi-space.

~~~
tptacek
It's a little weird reading about people not catching on to quasi-space, not
just because I'm not an especially good gamer and I got it no problem, but
also because I cannot fathom how anyone could actually place SC2 for any
length of time without it. Travel in SC2 is a slog.

~~~
aidenn0
I also don't remember having an issue discovering it, and I'm also an average
gamer, but I'm taking the article at face value when it says that this is a
problem for many players.

------
danso
I think SC2 may be my favorite game from childhood -- I discovered it, of all
places, in a Barnes and Nobles which had a playable 3DO console and had a
playable demo of the Melee mode, which is still a blast to play because of the
creative design of the ships.

But what I remember most was how brilliant the writing and humor was. Not just
the hilarious alien races and their depictions/dialogues, but the creative
drama of the overall plot and universe, in which humans were seemingly just a
minor character in a conflict between warring centipedes. I don't think
there's a game from that era that I want more to be remade/rebooted (with
Fallout 3/4 being disappointments). Unfortunately, it seems to be mired in a
intellectual property dispute between the original creators and Stardock [0].

[0] [https://www.polygon.com/2018/6/25/17501084/star-control-
crea...](https://www.polygon.com/2018/6/25/17501084/star-control-creators-
ford-reiche-stardock-lawsuit-campaign)

~~~
logicfiction
Stardock released their own spiritual successor already, so give that a try if
you want. And as far as I'm aware the original creators are still working on
their own successor.

~~~
Para2016
The original creators of SC2 are in a legal battle with Stardock.

------
impendia
I loved this game, and Ur-Quan Masters is a 100% faithful remake for anyone
wanting to give it a try.

My favorite moment: when the Ilwrath tell you exactly from where, and on what
radio frequency, their evil gods communicate to them. You immediately think:
_Wait, surely you can 't ....?_ Ah, but of course you can.

~~~
mrob
>Ur-Quan Masters is a 100% faithful remake

It's based on the 3DO version, which has different dialogue in some places.
This makes the game noticeably more difficult, because you are only told the
general area of a certain mandatory quest item, not the exact location as in
the original PC version. This also makes it IMO more boring, because the only
way to find the item without spoilers is repeatedly checking planets at a time
when you probably have enough minerals already.

~~~
impendia
Oh. I'd played both (15 years apart) and didn't notice any differences...
guess I just overlooked them! I stand corrected.

------
Illniyar
Star control II is one of my favorite games of all time. I hate it that Toys
for Bob lost the brand, and even more that stardock would take the name and
use it for something completely unrelated to the original story.

~~~
withinrafael
Stardock rebooted using a different timeline reportedly to leave room for Toys
for Bob to expand with their own related eventual sequel. Sounds like a win-
win for gamers to me. (I've also completed the new Star Control reboot and
found it hyper-faithful to everything we loved and remember about Star Control
II, with similar controls, UX, and even remixed music.)

~~~
setr
I think gp is referring to the current lawsuit between stardock and toys for
bob, in which stardock is trying to claim total ownership over the star
control trademark/universe

See: [https://www.dogarandkazon.com](https://www.dogarandkazon.com)

Also of note — they’re requesting $2m in gofundme donations to fight it, but
have only gotten 40k in 6 months. My hopes of ever seeing a proper sc3 is
vanishing.

[https://www.gofundme.com/help-fred-amp-paul-save-the-
univers...](https://www.gofundme.com/help-fred-amp-paul-save-the-
universe?member=333940)

~~~
withinrafael
Yup, I'm very aware of the ongoing legal battle. I was trying to side-step
discussion around it as Paul/Ritchie appear to present a very warped view of
history/reality via their blog. (For example, available data suggests P/R
didn't actually substantially contribute to SC1/2.)

A slightly better armchair take can be found at the UQM wiki [1] with actual
lawyer commentary [2]

Not taking any real sides here, I feel everyone involved is greater than I
regardless of outcome, but do hope folks keep an open mind.

[1]
[http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/Stardock_Systems_Inc._v._Paul_Reich...](http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/Stardock_Systems_Inc._v._Paul_Reiche_III_and_Robert_Frederick_Ford)

[2]
[http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/Stardock_Systems_Inc._v._Paul_Reich...](http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/Stardock_Systems_Inc._v._Paul_Reiche_III_and_Robert_Frederick_Ford#Commentary_from_Lawyers)

~~~
lixue
"For example, available data suggests P/R didn't actually substantially
contribute to SC1/2."

That's a pretty wild claim to repeat. Not a single person on the original team
agrees with it, and they've filed the copyright registration in court[1].
There's basically no evidence at all for that conclusion, except that Stardock
made the claim (not supported it, not provided evidence of it, merely made the
claim)

Even if you do believe it, it's legally irrelevant as the team has signed the
copyright over to them[2], and they released The Ur-Quan Masters back in 2003
using that copyright.

I was a member of the community back in the lat 90s/early 00s and this was
common knowledge even back then.

[1]
[https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6239751/71/6/stardock-s...](https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6239751/71/6/stardock-
systems-inc-v-paul-reiche-iii/)

[2]
[https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6239751/64/5/stardock-s...](https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6239751/64/5/stardock-
systems-inc-v-paul-reiche-iii/)

~~~
withinrafael
That sounds like a fair take, IANAL.

It's worth noting these registrations are dated 2017/2018, after the mud-
flinging began. I wouldn't be shocked to hear they're invalid.

~~~
lixue
I really can't think of any reason they'd be invalid.Keep in mind copyright
doesn't need to be registered to be valid - the actual copyright applies since
they created the work, this is just a formal registration of that.

There's also a ton of evidence supporting this copyright: The game CDs,
manual, and box art all also say copyright Fred & Paul; there's email threads
with Accolade discussing the possibility of merging the copyright and
trademark; the fact that they published the game with no change other than
removal of the "Star Control" trademark; and basically the entire team signing
off on this.

If someone else was claiming to have written it, I could see a credible
conflict, but literally everyone involved in the actual creation of the game
says that, yes, it was created by Fred & Paul.

~~~
withinrafael
Cool, thanks for the calm discourse lixue.

------
gavanwoolery
Star Controll II, unlike any other game of its time, fired almost perfectly on
all cylinders.

    
    
      - Excellent storyline, for the most part
      - Well written humor and dialogue
      - Creative dialogue options
      - Unique personalities for every species
      - A sense of vastness in mystery in the universe that rewarded exploration.
      - Great artwork
      - Fun mini games, especially the "Super-Melee" combat
      - Interesting RPG/upgrade element as you acquired new ships and parts for your main ship.
      - Did I mention the music was both ahead of its time (tracker format when everything else was midi), and amazing?

~~~
prawn
Loved Melee and the music especially. I remember each ship having a points
rating in Melee, and we'd play lowest vs highest. There were some cheap ships
(Spathi, Androsynth, Thraddash, Arilou, Orz, VUX, etc) that could thoroughly
torment the big slugs with the right tactics.

Teleporting the Arilou into the planet/moon though was infuriating.

------
sevensor
I have such fond memories of playing the melee mode at a friend's house, with
a shared keyboard -- he would always pick the little alien that shouted
insults. "Jerk! Idiot! Fool!" And the soundtrack, the soundtrack was so good
you could just let it spin while you did other things.

~~~
caf
Play enough melee mode against humans and you can soundly beat the computer,
even with insane matchups like playing the Slylandro Probe against the Ur-Quan
Dreadnought.

~~~
prawn
The secondary option for the Thraddash was surely the most devastating option
among the cheaper ships. 10 points in Melee yet could take down as many of the
"big four" as needed.

------
XorNot
I had such a weird relationship with this game.

My godfather got me a pirated disk (5 1/4"!) from Malaysia when I was about 9
or 10, which included the full manual. The disk was completely corrupted - I
was able to get it to play just the intro and then the game would crash.

I _devoured_ that manual though - the full future history of Earth and the Ur-
Quan War story had me totally hooked.

Fast forward 15-years or so to when I discover the whole game is open-source
now as the Ur-Quan Masters story, and I was giddy to finally be playing it
(and getting to listen to the glorious Hyperspace music scores), while my
kitten at the time had to be distracted from clawing my monitor because he
wanted to chase the blue-spaceship across the screen.

It's an amazing game, that just goes all the places you want it to.

------
beart
I recall being a small child and constantly bothering my older brother to play
Star Control II so I could watch. I tried playing it myself but was too young
to figure out how to exit the starter station. As I grew older, I could
finally get to the point of crashing into planets.

------
trynewideas
Dipping into [https://mastodon.social/@orz](https://mastodon.social/@orz)
works for me when I'm nostalgic but don't feel like spinning up dosbox.

~~~
eeZah7Ux
Happy _campers_!

------
malkia
My experience with SC and SC2 goes back from high-school, we've got some
"beefy" PC-XT and PC-ATs with CGA graphics, and the thing to do was to find a
keyboard where two players can play hold 10 keys simualtenously and play
against each other - choice of keyboard was critical, and there was an APP
allowing to find these keys.

Played MELEE mostly from the game, and bit of the Adventure, but to be fair -
MELEE for me was the best part - endless plays, much like we've played ARCHON,
and ARCHON 2 before that - in fact these were the two most played games at
school (somewhere ~1991-1993).

Then around this time my other favourite game came to be Heroes of Might and
Magic 1, 2 and later 3 - and much like the ones above it - "multiplayer" was
really people taking turns, and promising to not see while the others are
playing - some sessions ended up being more than 24hr, after which the
girlfriend back then of my best friend, had to kick us out (we drank, and not
showered for whole day...)

Then the same experience in the army (mandatory service back then, where I
came from), lol. So much fun...

And I've never really played much multi-player network game myself - PC clubs,
or nowadays internet (with the exception of Hearthstone - nothing else).

I do miss the funky, weird, games of old times...

------
heyjudy
C. 1996 I was about 17, I remember interviewing for a job at Accolade in the
old former Apple HQ black triangular building off I-280. SC3 just came out.

PS: That triangular building is somewhat "cursed" in that it can't seem to
keep tenants. Is the space too expensive, is it too unusable by being shaped
as such or do risky ventures pick it?

------
heyjudy
Boxer on Mac, a wrapper for DosBox, is a great way to play DOS games.
[http://boxerapp.com](http://boxerapp.com)

