
Facebook’s ties to India’s ruling party complicate its fight against hate speech - ashleshbiradar
https://time.com/5883993/india-facebook-hate-speech-bjp/
======
CMGPwned
"Shreya Singhal v. Union of India shields Twitter from any liability for
failing to take down content unless a court order is passed asking it to do
the same."

source: [https://internetfreedom.in/joint-letter-to-twitter-about-
rem...](https://internetfreedom.in/joint-letter-to-twitter-about-removal-of-
prashant-bhushan-tweets/)

~~~
rbecker
Those are better free speech protections than in Germany, where after a mere
complaint (not court order) platforms are liable for up to 5 million euro if
they fail to remove illegal posts within 7 days, and "obviously illegal" posts
within 24 hours:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Enforcement_Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Enforcement_Act)

------
roenxi
It is a strategically risky move for Facebook to take an active role in
shaping India's political landscape. I imagine that the Indian population
might object to American companies deciding what is and isn't appropriate to
discuss.

~~~
dheera
I've always wondered why Facebook's role in the US elections is such a hotly
debated topic but Facebook's role in the elections of all the other
democracies in the world is not touched upon at all.

~~~
retrac
It's certainly a topic for discussion in the other democracies. Before
COVID-19 sent everything haywire, Canada's parliament was holding sessions on
the question of American electoral interference on social media.

Once it's back on track, Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook's management have a good
chance of having arrest warrants issued if they don't start actually
testifying and cooperating.

------
ashleshbiradar
Here's a report by Equality Labs about Facebook India and Hate speech.

[https://www.equalitylabs.org/facebookindiareport](https://www.equalitylabs.org/facebookindiareport)

~~~
jedimind
That's extremely disturbing how can they justify banning tik tok for inciting
ethnic violence yet give facebook a free pass?

~~~
jariel
It's a geopolitical issue, probably not one of hate speech.

India is not concerned about US Government spying on them, so much.

All large Chinese companies have strong ties to the CCP (they have internal
staffers who are party members, essentially acting as internal party
oversight). Ergo, TT is definitely an organ of the state. It's just a matter
of 'how much' in practicality.

So TT gets the ban.

~~~
jariel
FYI to be more clear - the Chinese Communist Party has party officials placed
within corporate organisations in order to maintain control, and to require
businesses to adhere to CCP Policy.

As of 2019 - 70% of Chinese business had 'CCP organs' placed within the
company for oversight, and Xi wants to put it to at least 95% very soon. [1]

From the Guardian: "Central Organisation Department, the party’s personnel
body, found that 68% of China’s private companies had party bodies by 2016,
and 70% of foreign enterprises. Although these figures sound high, they don’t
match the targets the party has set for itself. In Xi’s old stamping ground of
Zhejiang, for example, officials set a target in August 2018 to have cells
inside 95% of private businesses."

There is no ambiguity here: while the state may allow private enterprises to
manage day-to-day affairs, all private businesses are subject to controls and
scrutiny by the CCP - directly from agents within the company - so that they
meet CCP objectives.

Given that, all Chinese companies are de-facto CCP companies from the
perspective of national security and strategic policy.

The parallel would be Trump putting a 'special team' of CIA or Republicans
inside every American company to ensure oversight of his agenda.

This is very material to the nature of Social Media operations and global
influence.

Edit: which is why India et. al. are going to be much more concerned about
TikTok than other apps and that the primary concern is not issues over speech.

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-
business...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business-xi-
jinping-communist-party-state-private-enterprise-huawei)

------
wtmt
This can only be solved when more and more people understand the threats not
just for the present, but for the future.

What Facebook and WhatsApp have enabled are convenient and useful for those in
power. So while there may probably be some words here and there, we can’t
expect a lot of change on the ground.

Disappointingly, the Indian Supreme Court is also lethargic and chooses to
look at more trivial matters than give importance to things that could affect
the freedom and political landscape for generations — examples are the Aadhaar
petitions, cases against the electoral bonds and other matters not being heard
for years. The court may actually find merit in holding this commenter in
contempt for criticizing it, as if the judiciary is somehow sacred and beyond
any criticism (anyone interested can search online for recent news on what the
court is doing).

The effect of “absolute power corrupts absolutely” is seen in many corners!

~~~
luckylion
> What Facebook and WhatsApp have enabled are convenient and useful for those
> in power.

I'm sure they are, but are they more useful than what was before? Facebook &
Co have some random element, it's not a one-way-communication device like
classic media (TV, radio, newspapers) are/were.

The government has much less control over Facebook. You can't just go in and
take it over like you could with a radio station, you can either use it and
accept that others can as well, or you can block it in your country, but then
you can't use it either.

~~~
rbecker
> I'm sure they are, but are they more useful than what was before? [..] TV,
> radio, newspapers

False dichotomy. Lets not skip over irc, xmpp, and all sorts of free,
variously encrypted communication platforms that Facebook muscled out.

~~~
luckylion
But those were for individual communication, I understood the parent comment
to mean mass media ("useful for those in power"). I don't think the powerful
feature of Facebook is the messenger, it's the ability to rapidly disperse
information through sharing. IRC & similar communication tools weren't made
for that.

WhatsApp is a hybrid, I suppose, but even there I think the share/forward
feature is what drives the political usefulness, which is also why they're
limiting that for some media, so you can't spread messages as easily (if it
has been forwarded five times, you can only forward it individually, not to
multiple contacts/chats, from what I understand).

------
praveen9920
Hate speech is very common in Indian social media.

Also, This is not just a problem with Facebook India, Even Twitter India's
heads have very close ties to India's ruling party.

~~~
actuator
Are you sure about this? From what I gather the current ruling dispensation in
India is opposite of left, and Jack Dorsey has stated in the past about
Twitter having left leaning bias. [1] Might not translate to their India
operations but I strongly doubt it wouldn't.

[1]
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/08/19/twitter...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/08/19/twitter-
ceo-jack-dorsey-admits-left-leaning-bias-says-it-doesnt-influence-company-
policy/)

~~~
newen
BJP, India’s right wing party, has super majority seats in parliament and
looks to be the only relevant party in the foreseeable future. So I think if
they want to deal with India, they’d have to deal with BJP regardless of their
political leanings.

------
tsjq
Also, FB's proximity to the mega corporation that's known to be very friendly
to the ruling party. FB's WhatsApp pay getting clearances / approvals soon
after they made a large payment to Jio Platforms.

Timeline:

26Nov2019: India puts WhatsApp's impending payments service on ice due to data
localisation fracas. Both the security breach by Pegasus malware and
WhatsApp's reluctance to adhere to India's data localisation norms have caused
it to sit on the sidelines of one of the hottest digital payments markets in
the world. [1] [1] [https://www.zdnet.com/article/india-puts-whatsapps-
impending...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/india-puts-whatsapps-impending-
payments-service-on-ice-due-to-data-localisation-fracas/)

24Apr2020: Facebook is spending $5.7 billion to capitalize on India's internet
boom. [2] [2] [https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/22/tech/facebook-india-
relia...](https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/22/tech/facebook-india-reliance-
jio/index.html)

08June2020: WhatsApp gets a raw deal from India in payments. WhatsApp needs a
nod from the National Payments Corporation of India to throw open the switch.
[3]. [3][https://cio.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/enterprise-
ser...](https://cio.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/enterprise-services-and-
applications/whatsapp-gets-a-raw-deal-from-india-in-payments/76252903)

16June2020: WhatsApp launches payments service, 2 yrs after it began testing
in India. [4]
[4][https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/whats...](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/whatsapp-
launches-payments-service-2-yrs-after-it-began-testing-in-
india/articleshow/76400100.cms)

03Aug WhatsApp a step closer to pay play. [5]
[5][https://www.livemint.com/industry/banking/whatsapp-a-step-
cl...](https://www.livemint.com/industry/banking/whatsapp-a-step-closer-to-
pay-play-11596419325500.html)

04Aug2020: WhatsApp Pay has now met all data localisation rules, NPCI tells
RBI [6] [6][https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/small-
biz/startups/news...](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/small-
biz/startups/newsbuzz/whatsapp-pay-has-now-met-all-data-localisation-rules-
npci-tells-rbi/articleshow/77343179.cms)

05Aug2020: 'NPCI gave ICICI Bank go ahead for WhatsApp Pay in June', RBI
informs SC [7] [7][https://www.medianama.com/2020/08/223-npci-approves-
whatsapp...](https://www.medianama.com/2020/08/223-npci-approves-whatsapp-pay-
rbi-supreme-court/)

------
ffpip
India is a very lucrative market for FB and other companies.

1 billion people, 2 billion eyes. No privacy laws, can easily share and sell
data, govt is in the hands of Reliance (in which FB, Google and others are all
investing a lot), most Indians are just getting used to the vast internet and
are easily tricked.

~~~
indogooner
Ideally they should have some morality to put basic human rights and safety
above profits. Even from long term perspective if they continue to ignore hate
speech against Islam on their platform I am sure they would lose a lot of
users.

~~~
ffpip
They won't. You don't know the kind of nationalism that exists in India. Just
check out twitter.com/explore every night via an Indian IP. It's full of hate
speech against Hindus and muslims. Some random guy/girl tweets some shit
against a religion. All the media/bots/politicians jump on it and blame it on
each other. Everybody is outraged by tiny things, they don't know to ignore
things.

Indian media thrives on these things. Half the nation is jobless/students .
Most accounts are paid bots.

The only good thing is that the situation are getting better, as the older gen
goes away slowly.

~~~
srean
> The only good thing is that the situation are getting better, as the older
> gen goes away slowly.

I do want to believe you, but most of the time it seems I am clutching at
straws. The Hindu right is doing a pretty good job of catching them young and
indoctrinating. At the same time there is ton of money flowing in from Saudi
Arabia to do the honours for the other side.

------
AmIDev
You can see many comments here justifying anti-Muslim actions of the govt by
whataboutery. Now imagine that happening at scale on whatsapp/Facebook and
MSM.

With most Indian family having access to smartphones, the amount of hatred and
brainwashing that happens through this platform is unstoppable. Recently,
Hindus were told not to buy from Muslim vendors, saying that Muslims are
purposely spreading corona. Hindu sellers were provided with saffron flags for
identification. Concentration camps are being built using the same people as
workers, who would eventually end up in the camps. MSM openly spews anti-
muslim venom during prime time. India is openly heading towards either a
genocide or a civil war.

One can try their best to un-brainwash people, but one can't do much against a
paid online army of twitter/whatsapp/facebook users.

------
justicezyx
Zuck tried to do the same with China, but for whatever reasons never
disclosed, they seem did not reach an agreement for FB to enter China.

I suspect, China asked something that might undermine Zuck's political
ambition.

------
fareesh
Is there a single thing that has been defeated by prohibition and censorship?

This is a losing strategy

------
dragonsh
For failure of legislation, judiciary, administration, media in India to
protect minority, Facebook is not the primary actor. Indeed minorities failed
to get support from top courts in India where habeas corpus (the most
fundamental basic right of Freedom in Indian constitution) litigations are
pending for over 1 year and constantly being postponed, and the topmost court
is busy prosecuting a lawyer with urgency for a tweet. His main offence is to
use public interest litigation to help minorities, question govt and courts
and bring to the front the tyranny of majoritarian politics of suppression. He
is in cross-hairs of the current govt, so it’s one another way to silence him
from questioning govt or courts for decisions.

Agree that Facebook should act decisively to say no to things which incites
violence and suppress the voice of minority.

The least it can do is to remove people immediately in the company who appear
in slightest to promote or ignore hate and violent information on platform
resulting in loss of life. Here Facebook is duty bound to act internally
within its company to make sure it’s staff are responsible for their actions.
I don’t see any of this indeed the whole Facebook team in India who did it are
promoted based on research in WSJ and this article. Getting cozy with richest
man closer to right wing is just to secure profits and market at the expense
of principles.

Also right wing politics in India enjoys a substantial support, especially the
Hitler style (reflected in many govt decisions). Facebook is just reflection
of what’s in the society at present. Majority of the people are happy that a
temple built will make India no. 1 in the world, talks and real actions on
COVID-19 has become boring and not important as it inches towards no. 1 in the
world for COVID-19 infections.

~~~
heavyset_go
> * Facebook is just reflection of what’s in the society at present.*

Facebook is a company that makes a profit off of engagement, even if that
engagement is driven by hate. Facebook alone chooses what they promote on
their platform. It is not some kind of mirror that just reflects what goes on
in society, it is a company that distorts the truth, outrages and pushes paid
propaganda on its users in order to turn a profit.

~~~
dragonsh
That’s the reason mentioned in my comment that Facebook chose profits and
market over principles in India based on WSJ research and this article.

In India they choose the side of the govt, political party and an ideology,
it’s again a reflection of the kind of staff managing Facebook in India and
although they are duty bound to punish such staff they rewarded them and still
defending them to secure the market and profits.

------
Animats
Hate speech is a core part of political discourse today. It's no longer out of
the mainstream. Expecting Facebook to deal with that is asking too much of a
private company. Whom should Facebook muzzle? ISIL? Le Pen? Trump?

------
pkphilip
Facebook's actions in India are absolutely despicable. The head of policy at
Facebook in India is a radicalized member of the Indian rightwing and recently
put up a post stating that Muslims are a "degenerate community" and was forced
to apologise just a couple of days ago because of pressure on FB from their
employees.

She gave a half hearted apology. Facebook should have immediately suspended
her or sacked her:

[https://www.huffingtonpost.in/entry/facebook-ankhi-das-
anti-...](https://www.huffingtonpost.in/entry/facebook-ankhi-das-anti-muslim-
post_in_5f45de23c5b6cf66b2b02390)

She and her sister (who is a politically connected to the ruling BJP party)
have publicly been hobnobbing with the BJP and have actively been involved in
propaganda.
[https://twitter.com/SaketGokhale/status/1294653379046596608](https://twitter.com/SaketGokhale/status/1294653379046596608)

During the recent riots in Delhi where many died, the incitement of violence
was by a member of the ruling party but has taken no action against Kapil
Mishra's account which is still active:

[https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=283365149510764](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=283365149510764)

His account is still active and he still continues to try and make the Hindus
fight the Muslims:

[https://www.facebook.com/youth4justice](https://www.facebook.com/youth4justice)

~~~
statguy
Imagine a White person, who is the head of the organization in a country
sharing a post that African Americans are a "degenerate community". In any
western country, the person would not only be promptly sacked, but would also
become untouchable in mainstream organizations.

The Indian politics and judiciary have been compromised by right wing Hindu
nationalists and it is impossible to expect anything from them. However, I
expected better from Facebook. In a western country Facebook wouldn't think
twice about firing any employee who shared such a post.

~~~
scarface74
See.

“The Southern Strategy”
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy)

Dog Whistle Politics [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-
whistle_(politics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_\(politics\))

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
Removing posts by elected officials is running really close to foreign
interference in domestic affairs. Given the history of the East India Company,
I am sure India is especially sensitive to foreign companies trying to
influence or curtail the speech of their elected officials.

~~~
smt88
> _Removing posts by elected officials is running really close to foreign
> interference in domestic affairs._

No, it's not. If anything, it's _opting out_ of interfering in domestic
affairs.

Facebook is not an official channel. The elected official has many other
platforms, including the country's media, that will publish their message.
They can create a blog if they want.

If Facebook _is_ the only viable channel for reaching a large part of the
electorate, the core issue is having only that one channel. You solve it by
forcing competition, not by stifling Facebook's right to decide what they want
to allow on their platform.

I deeply loathe Facebook and think they're undermining democracy in every
country, but there should never be a way for a government to force a publisher
to distribute an ideology that the publisher disagrees with.

~~~
dominotw
> stifling Facebook's right to decide what they want to allow on their
> platform.

Is indian govt really proposing this though? who is stifling their right?

~~~
smt88
The comment I was responding to seemed to be proposing it.

I don't know about India, but in the US, there's been a major debate about
whether govt can force platforms to retain posts and several attempted
lawsuits over it.

~~~
dominotw
> The comment I was responding to seemed to be proposing it.

I don't think so. comment wasn't merely presenting its take on things not
proposing govt should force fb to do something.

