
Leaving Pittsburgh because of industrial air pollution - tantalor
https://www.publicsource.org/when-better-isnt-good-enough-why-i-tell-my-google-co-workers-and-industry-peers-to-avoid-pittsburgh/
======
eyegor
To those saying "nah, it's fine there" in Pittsburgh, I can absolutely say
this is a problem, but this varies drastically area to area. I lived there for
about 20 years, and industrial pollution is a well known problem there.

It isn't exactly advertised, but the city water around the cmu-google-downtown
region has failed tests many times, and at least on two occasions the city
provided water filters due to contaminants. This is mostly due to how old the
city is, rusty and lead pipes in old homes are impossible for the city to
track and fix. This is true everywhere in the rust belt.

Air quality in Pittsburgh gets really bad once you go out past googles neck of
the woods, that used to be covered in steel mills, plastics manufacturing,
coal and trash burning plants. I understand the desire to live near work, but
please don't move near bakery square. They can try to cover it up, but I'm
sure the ground is contaminated as well. The entire thing used to be a factory
before they bulldozed it in the early 2000s. And nearly all the land near a
river will have been used by industry at some point. There's a reason why you
can pick 4 locals and at least one has asthma.

Edit: for fun, here's a reminder of what the city looked like during the steel
days. You couldn't wear white clothing because of the soot in the air.
[http://cdn.citylab.com/media/img/citylab/legacy/2012/06/05/p...](http://cdn.citylab.com/media/img/citylab/legacy/2012/06/05/p17.jpg)

~~~
lightedman
"This is mostly due to how old the city is, rusty and lead pipes in old homes
are impossible for the city to track and fix."

It shouldn't be that hard to track at all with a little brainpower. When did
we stop using lead and iron piping? Add another 10 years forward and start
from that date back, and find every home matching the age/time range.

Everything else should be copper and/or plastic.

~~~
xeromal
Who has those records? Are they accurate? Are they digitized? Are they
consolidated into one place? Are they accurate?

~~~
munmaek
No, no, you don't get it. This problem must be so easy and people quite simply
haven't fixed it yet. Armchair analysts on HN know better than the people /
agencies working on the problem. /s

My guess is they do have (some) data, but it's split among departments, in
different formats. Assuming detailed records were kept that far back.

~~~
lightedman
"Armchair analysts on HN know better than the people"

You'd assume I'm an armchair analyst instead of someone that actually does
civil planning work.

They have ALL of that data. It's in the damned city plats. Go pay $20 and get
a copy of your neighborhood's electrical and piping. Hell you can actually
look it up for free online using ARCGIS.

------
cfallin
My understanding of the issue, when I was in Pittsburgh ('09-'13 and '15-'19)
was that it was a combination of Clairton Coke Works pollution and unfavorable
winds/weather patterns that would cause the smell to stick around. I
definitely know the smell he's talking about. But it wasn't every day, maybe
not even most days (anecdata, I know), and not terribly strong where I was
(Squirrel Hill).

Personal opinion: lots of cities have specific quality-of-life issues of
varying degrees; in the Mountain View area now, I could equally complain about
Superfund sites from all the early silicon industry dumping. Overall in
Pittsburgh, the walkability, easy access to hikes through large parks in city
limits, lack of stress about high rents, etc., probably outweighed an
occasional whiff of sulfur wrt my quality of life. Everyone is of course
welcome to make that tradeoff differently!

------
exogeny
Count me as another person who lived in Pittsburgh and did not notice anything
close to what he is describing.

That’s not to say he isn’t right, of course. But for me Pittsburgh was an
awesome, safe, affordable, and surprisingly culturally rich city that I was
sad to have to leave.

~~~
ApolloFortyNine
Same from me and I lived their for 15 years. Even when traveling to other
parts of Pittsburgh I never noticed anything out of the ordinary.

------
et2o
Is this smell or industrial pollution not measured in the Air Quality Index?

This is not at all scientific, but I just looked at AQI for Pittsburgh, Palo
Alto, and NYC:

* PGH: 34

* Palo Alto: 32

* NY region: 50

List of City rankings from American Lung Association:
[https://www.lung.org/our-initiatives/healthy-
air/sota/city-r...](https://www.lung.org/our-initiatives/healthy-
air/sota/city-rankings/most-polluted-cities.html)

~~~
darksaints
The most common sources of smelly and health-affecting industrial pollution,
particularly sulfur dioxide and nitrogen dioxide, are included. However,
Hydrogen Sulfide is not, and it is a common one found specifically in both
petroleum engineering. He mentioned that the smell was similar to the
petroleum cracking plants in the north Salt Lake valley, so I'm assuming that
is it.

Regardless, AQI measurements are relatively aggregate, and if the pollution is
produced very locally, it might be off the charts in that location, but
diffuse down to a moderate measurement on a broader scale.

~~~
dgacmu
The smell is mostly from a coke plant in Clairton, PA that has been violating
emissions rules for decades.

------
Game_Ender
Pittsburgh does not have the best air quality, but I was surprised to find it
listed as better than SF in this article which is overall negative on
Pittsburgh [0]. Neither is in a good place, being in the top 15 most worst
cities in the country for air quality.

If you want some charts it looks it really does very by section of the city as
well [1].

I know people in the area and they responded by getting a Purple Air quality
monitor and indoor air purifiers. The simply staying inside when the it was
particularly bad day. Which definitely echos China’s big cities, and not in a
good way.

0 - [https://www.post-gazette.com/local/2019/04/24/Pittsburgh-
reg...](https://www.post-gazette.com/local/2019/04/24/Pittsburgh-regional-air-
quality-gets-failing-grades-again/stories/201904230099)

1 - [https://www.wesa.fm/post/pittsburghs-air-quality-better-
past...](https://www.wesa.fm/post/pittsburghs-air-quality-better-past-not-yet-
clean#stream/0)

------
mtm7
Pittsburgh resident here. I’ve lived in four different neighborhoods over the
last 10 years (and spent time at Google’s offices in Bakery Square) and
haven’t experienced any of these issues. (Not to say the author didn’t
experience this — it’s just that I’ve been around the same area and haven’t.)

To me, Pittsburgh’s air quality seems comparable to other cities.

------
mysterydip
In all the times I've been in Pittsburgh and even Chatham University in
particular, I haven't smelled what he did. Not to say he didn't, and as he
notes the smells come and go so maybe I was fortunate. I just don't want
people walking away with the impression things are like the smog-filled skies
of decades past. It's really a nice city for where it is.

------
mtbomb
This is anecdata. I live in Pittsburgh and have never had a smell issue. I've
never had a coworker complain about this to me either. There's a good chance
the author could have solved his smell issue by moving down the street to a
different neighborhood.

~~~
tempsy
Pollution isn’t always something you can see or smell. Need a better
counterargument than “ I don’t smell anything”

~~~
mtbomb
It counters the author's argument that he smelled something.

~~~
johndubchak
Not at all. He talked to a County official that confirmed the Industrial
Pollution, cited an app that has other anecdotal accounts by others in
Pittsburgh. His article isn't simply a one line about smelling something.

~~~
quaquaqua1
So then take some sample where the other commenter is at and compare.

This isn't a court of law. We don't need to crucify people for providing their
experiences...

~~~
ryguytilidie
You know that crucifixion is something worse than someone saying "i need a
better counterargument" on a discussion forum, right?

------
gkop
My anecdote: lived in Central and South Oakland neighborhoods of Pittsburgh
04-08, no smell but I suffered chronic bronchitis in winter that was worse
than anywhere else I have lived, with the exception of posh inner western
London, which was distinctly worse. Moved to East Liberty neighborhood of
Pittsburgh 08-10, on the other side of Google, and bronchitis was alleviated,
and still no smell either. I am not familiar with the smell the author speaks
of.

I have lived in the bay for the last 8 years. When there are no fires burning,
the bay air quality is amazing and I don’t take it for granted and factor it
into my reasons for staying here.

I have seriously considered moving back to Pittsburgh because it’s really a
great city. Along with the mediocre air quality, the relatively high number of
overcast days in Pittsburgh effectively discourages me, I like sunshine a lot.

------
munk-a
1\. Software developer moves to Pittsburgh to save money on cost of living.

2\. Software developer realizes there is an air problem.

3\. Software developer advises other software developers to avoid the city.

Why, in this process of events isn't he appealing to the local government more
- as a member of a workforce that is able to afford moving pretty trivially
and can actually reside in crazy locales like SF it's rather depressing to see
lines like:

> I credit myself with discouraging at least a dozen contacts in the tech
> industry from considering Pittsburgh until the situation improves.

Without even a spare moment's thought to the residents in Pittsburgh that are
stuck there.

~~~
rwem
The air pollution in Pittsburgh isn’t caused by things under the control of
the local government or even the state government. It accumulates and blows in
from west of there. Only the US federal government can fix it.

~~~
jasonvm
Where is it coming from, specifically?

~~~
jshaqaw
In the NYC area we get a lot of pollution from coal burning power plans in the
Midwest. Air currents take all that pollution and dump it here. Probably
similar for Pittsburgh.

------
vzaliva
Without measurements, it is just one guys' tantrum. There are many air quality
measurement products he can buy if he wants to be scientific about it:
[https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Industrial-Scientific-
In...](https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Industrial-Scientific-Indoor-Air-
Quality-Meters/zgbs/industrial/5006564011)

~~~
hatmatrix
Actually people who want to be 'scientific' about it won't rely on these
devices because they aren't very accurate.

------
joeblau
I used to live less than half a mile from Google, but I always thought the
smell was due to the train that runs along the busway. Some mornings the smell
there was extremely pungent, but it was definitely something that I smelled
the entire time I lived there.

------
PascLeRasc
I've lived in Pittsburgh my whole life and I can't recommend it. It's just a
really unhealthy place. I 100% believe him about our air quality. I visited
Seattle recently and noticed on the second day that breathing felt so much
easier. I don't have any data but I know how I feel. Some friends who moved
here for grad school have said the same thing, and some even have been
diagnosed with adult asthma after moving here.

Our water quality is awful too, we have boil advisories a few times a year
after they find lead. They just approved fracking in the Mon Valley against
the public's wishes, and closer to the river than environmental groups
recommended, so it's just gonna get worse.

It's an incredibly car-centric city, so there's new pollution being spread
everywhere every day. I've been trying to find a job elsewhere for 2 years,
hopefully eventually I can leave. There are other up-and-coming cities more
worth your time.

~~~
sagarm
Does boiling the water help if it's contaminated with lead?

~~~
dgacmu
No, the GP is mistaken about the reason for the boil water advisories. it's
true that Pittsburgh has a very aging water infrastructure, and there are
somewhat regular water main breaks, which introduced the possibility of
contamination for a period of time after the break. Those are what result in
boil water advisories.

The lead issue was a one-time, grevious error - The city outsourced the
management of the water plant to a commercial vendor, who changed the mix of
lead prevention chemicals in order to save money. Needless to say, that worked
out poorly. Vincent's taking control back of the PWSA, and introduced
orthophosphate into the water supply to control the lead from old pipes, and
it's pretty good again.

------
gethoht
Industrial pollution is probably more common than most people realize. I've
lived Denver, Pittsburgh and Tampa and you can always catch smells depending
on what part of the city you're in. I just saw this article on Colorado Public
Radio today. [https://www.cpr.org/2020/01/06/why-denver-sometimes-
smells-l...](https://www.cpr.org/2020/01/06/why-denver-sometimes-smells-like-
mothballs-and-other-unpleasant-things/)

------
harshaw
I am curious if the solution is from new sources (fracking and cracking) or
historical sources like the Clairton coke works. I've heard that there are
several new ethane cracker plants that have come online in recent years to
support the fracking industry.

From what I understand the long standing polluters like the clairton coke
works are still going strong and there have been several new cracking plants
built to support the fracking industry.

~~~
mysterydip
There's a large plant in Beaver County, northwest of Pittsburgh, but it's
still being constructed.

------
m0llusk
Living in Pittsburgh from 1986 to 1991 it was common in Squirrel Hill, among
the best neighborhoods, for the air to go bad, completely unbearable and
disgusting in the middle of the night even in summer as coke plants did their
work. And authorities lied about it every time. Pittsburgh has a lot going for
it, but bad air quality is a major open issue.

------
danielecook
Coming to London was a real eye opener. Biking to work in London I get a
myriad of smells, all petroleum based I am guessing and each distinct... and I
am entirely unsure what they are or where they come from.

This is on top of diesel pollution which is much more apparent then gasoline
pollution in the states. If enough cars are idling you can taste it!

~~~
Symbiote
I used to live there, and visited over new year.

I'm sure there are statistics, but my impression is the huge increase in
electric and hybrid buses, plus electric vehicles generally, has made a big
improvement. The diesel black cabs still remain, and are probably the worst
offender.

I would cycle on backstreets 95% of the time in London, to avoid the
pollution.

------
zorkus
My $.02 and anecdotal info: As a resident for ~12 years, my own experience is
that in the East End (lived in that area for ~9 years) this specific smell is
prominent at certain times. Not always, but there are nights/days when it is
very strong, usually starting in the very early morning hours. There are
certain weather patterns that seem to facilitate this. And yes, (as far as I
know) it is most likely emissions from the Clairton plant. It is quite a bit
different where I live now, which is south of Pittsburgh proper, and I am not
noticing this specific smell. There are interesting weather patterns
throughout this river valley area that seem to layer and maintain that
polluted air over specific areas of the city.

------
kccqzy
How does this jibe with reports like "Pittsburgh Named One Of The Most Livable
Cities In The World"[0] or many other liveability rankings?

[0]: [https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2015/07/31/pittsburgh-
named-...](https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2015/07/31/pittsburgh-named-one-of-
the-most-livable-cities-in-the-world/)

~~~
duxup
A lot of those 'most livabe' or 'best city' / region articles are just a
collection of data sets that often leave some things out.

I remember the early days of those articles they often came up with random
bedroom communities / suburbs that just fit the stats, or excelled at a few
stats and that tipped the balance.

~~~
etrk
Reminds me of when I was younger, and I crunched census data to locate the
city with the highest percentage of single women.

Turned out to be a random suburb with a female prison.

~~~
duxup
I imagine that the "single women in <your town>" ads for that town are pretty
accurate then ...

------
rwem
I reached the same conclusion but luckily before moving there. Pittsburgh just
has bad air. It also has the least sunlight of any American city.

~~~
jefftk
Where are you getting it having the least sunlight?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_sunshine_dur...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_sunshine_duration)
lists Juneau as having less.

But yes, it's low!

------
ndrake
[https://smellpgh.org/visualization](https://smellpgh.org/visualization)

[https://alleghenycounty.us/Health-Department/Programs/Air-
Qu...](https://alleghenycounty.us/Health-Department/Programs/Air-Quality/Air-
Quality.aspx)

------
jakebol
Funny that he mentions Salt Lake / the Salt lake valley as the only other
experience with significant levels of air pollution. I often wonder how
"silicon slopes" companies are able to attract people here, they must never
interview during the winter (particulate) or summer (ozone / smoke).

------
hprotagonist
just move to mt. lebo like the rest of the up-and-ups!

------
mgraczyk
Spoiler: Industrial air pollution that he did not expect.

------
mesozoic
Seems like Google can just install some big scrubbers.

------
Finnucane
He should be glad that Google probably won’t build an office near a pig waste
lagoon.

------
mrsaint
Cannot help but notice the luxury the author has of repeatedly relocating
without having to look for a new job. Good for him.

------
shas3
That explains the presence of all the low IQ dummies at CMU down the road. :P

All these claims about the cognitive problems resulting from pollution don’t
adequately explain how so many good universities and schools world over are in
polluted urban areas.

~~~
PascLeRasc
Our college grad "brain drain" rate is around 50%, the worst in the country
according to this article: [https://www.citylab.com/life/2016/03/which-metros-
are-best-a...](https://www.citylab.com/life/2016/03/which-metros-are-best-at-
keeping-their-college-graduates/473604/)

~~~
lawrencevillain
It's not "the worst", according to your article it's in the top 10 worst but
there are literally 9 other worse metros before it. Also this is from 2016 I'm
curious to see how it's changed in the past 4 years since the growth of Uber,
Argo, Google, etc...

~~~
PascLeRasc
Whoops, you're right, I misread the chart.

