
California Wildfires: Inmates Are Risking Their Lives for $2 a Day - ryan_j_naughton
https://www.newsweek.com/california-wildfires-inmates-prisoners-firefighters-1061905
======
joshuawright11
_Inmates ... are allowed to volunteer for the firefighting program and are
trained for two weeks in fire safety... Once the exam is passed, prisoners are
sent to live in one of 43 low-security field camps throughout the state._

 _Inmates do recognize that there are perks to the job. Their outdoor camps
allow for more freedom. The food is better and grown in on-site gardens.
Families are allowed to use barbecue pits for their visits and can often spend
the night in nearby cabins._

It's voluntary, gives inmates a change to spend outside time in low security
environments (potentially seeing family), gives them a break from monotonous
prison environments AND gives them 2 days off their sentence for every one day
served. Not sure how this voluntary labor with significant benefits for an
inmate is equivalent to slavery.

~~~
zapita
> _It 's voluntary and gives inmates a chance to [...]_

Bullshit. Nothing is truly voluntary when you are in a situation of such
extreme power imbalance. Other things that are voluntary in name only:
pleading guilty because the DA made you an "offer you can't refuse"; working
in a prison-run sweatshop for a fraction of minimum wage; buying basic
necessity goods at a huge premium from the prison store.

> _Not sure how this voluntary labor is any worse than involuntary community
> service._

You are correct, they are equally terrible.

~~~
joshuawright11
I mean, should there be an equal power balance in prisons...?

~~~
zapita
> _I mean, should there be an equal power balance in prisons...?_

I think a better question is "should inmates be protected from the risk of
abuse created by extreme power imbalance? And if so, where do we draw the line
as a society?".

My answer to the first question is yes, they should be protected.

My answer to the second question is: respecting the universal declaration of
Human Rights and the US constitution would be a great start.

~~~
will_brown
It’s voluntary...they receive training, see family, get time knocked off,
serve the community/others.

Dare I say it actually sounds like a rehabilitation program.

Of course it’s very easy to criticize on a forum behind a screen. So tell us
how you have personally helped a prisoner combat the extreme power imbalance
you observe beyond criticizing existing programs.

~~~
zapita
> _Of course it’s very easy to criticize on a forum behind a screen. So tell
> us how you have personally helped a prisoner combat the extreme power
> imbalance you observe beyond criticizing existing programs._

Yes, it's very easy to criticize behind a screen. In some cases, people who do
it too much even develop an extreme sense of entitlement, and start acting
like the world owes them a response to even the most ridiculous demands.
Although I have noticed that it's mostly white men who develop this issue -
excessive entitlement is a common side effect of excessive privilege.

~~~
will_brown
Asking someone for more than criticism of a topic isn’t criticism or
entitlement, it’s engagement.

If I were to have blindly said the program is more than you have ever done for
the encarcerated, without knowing your experience, fine, but I didn’t do that.

I personally have served as legal counsel to untold numbers of detained
immigrants and criminal defendants. I coordinated the legal representation of
all the Haitian minors in the 2008 Hallandale Beach Haitian boat crisis. I
have made complaints against guards in the Chrome Detention Center for
referring to my client as a bitch in front of me specifically referencing my
clients physical appearance as a result of a hormone imbalance that gave my
male client breasts. I have filed motions for fraud upon the court against the
chief broward county prosecutor against the interests of my own career. I know
a thing or two about the system and the ugliness of the system, and tried
engaging you and your generic response about declaration of human rights and
the constitution to support your criticism of this program. And your response
is to lash out against white males because their excessive privilege and
suggesting my _demand_ is ridiculous, that’s very interesting.

~~~
zapita
It’s great that you did all these things. But it doesn’t make your demand any
less bizarre and entitled. If your experience made you wise and knowledgeable,
by all means, share your wisdom and knowledge with us! So far all I’m seeing
from you is this bizarre “credentials contest”.

~~~
will_brown
As I stated before my experience and knowledge of the realities of the system
suggests this sounds like a rehabilitation program.

On the other hand I haven’t mentioned my credentials...I mentioned some small
bit of my first hand experience in relation to the topic of encarceration and
power imbalance.

My wisdom, if any, suggested to better understand your point of view I’d ask
about your experience...I never knew trying to understand someone by asking
about their experience was a bizarre entitlement and privilege of the white
man. It’s funny though my encarcerated clients have always been more than
happy to share their experiences with me, their experiences that lead to
encarcerated, their experience being encarcerated...and they were always happy
to ask about mine.

~~~
ficklepickle
It could be rehabilitation, if they were actually able to work as firefighters
after serving their sentence.

Also, I am concerned by the lack of death benefits for the families of those
that die. It's a pretty clear statement that their lives are nearly worthless.

Indirectly telling someone their life is of very low value, then putting
barriers in the way of them returning to work and society after they have
served their debt to society does not sound like rehabilitation to me.

~~~
will_brown
There is a lot there.

Lack of death benefits/life insurance speaks to a much broader issue facing
most non-incarcerated individuals, including, many with high risk jobs.
However, if they have the resources the family could take out life insurance
policies, and even if waivers are signed if the program was negligent in
training or providing faulty equipment to the participants then the
family/heirs have access to courts and lawyers take wrongful death cases on
contingency. For example, look at Walmart, using sophisticated computer
systems they take out life insurance policies on their employees (including
minimum wage workers on food stamps/SNAP) and cash in when the employees die
and give the families nothing.

Whether they participate in this program or not, it is true there are barriers
in place to a living wage for people transitioning out of incarceration. Again
I’d say the reality is there are many barriers for people who have no criminal
record to getting a job. The question might be does this program hurt them
from getting a job...well obviously if you die yes, but otherwise, it can only
help. Personally I don’t think it’s society or the _system_ , it’s individuals
in the companies making decisions with the reality of the number of people
competing for the same job...despite low unemployment numbers I believe all
potential employees are low value.

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djrogers
Title is intentionally inflamatory (no pun intended). It's a voluntary system,
for which they get $2/day plus $1/hr, get to live in a low security camp with
more freedom than prison, and get 2 days off their sentence for every day
they're working.

I'm not saying it's enough, or good or bad, but to claim that it's only $2/day
is just being willfully ignorant, and really gets in the way of leading any
real discussion on what the propert pay should be for prison labor.

------
rotskoff
A lot of the comments here suggest that, because participation is voluntary
and because there are other incentives, like spending time outside, reduced
sentences, etc, this practice is unquestionably fine. For me, the thing that
makes it ethically complex is precisely that there are strong incentives for
the prisoners to engage in risky, difficult work. Would you apply the same
logic to people engaging voluntarily in affairs with powerful superiors?

~~~
Ninjaneered
I worked as a seasonal firefighter for 6 years as I paid my way through
college, at the time it was called California Dept. of Forestry (CDF) now
California Dept. of Forestry and Fire Protection (or Cal Fire). I worked
alongside the very hardworking inmate handcrews many times, their work like
mine was difficult and risky yet we both chose to be there.

I made great money for my skill/expertise at the time _, there isn 't much I
could have done with my summers that would have benefited me more, so there
was a strong incentive for me to go back every summer, even given the inherent
risks. I think an argument could be made that for many inmates, the benefit of
a reduced sentence is similarly worth the risk, the payout in accrued
daily/hourly time is just another bonus.

The article mentions not being able to be employed as a firefighter once they
are released. This is (or at least was) false, there is (was) no requirement
for an EMT and I personally worked with a former inmate as a firefighter and
he's a captain now. I've talked to these guys/gals several times and they were
all very happy and proud to be there, they had to be on their best behavior to
stay and it was certainly a privilege for them.

Seriously though, these guys/gals work HARD! They are called handcrews because
they use hand tools (chainsaws, axes, Pulaskis, McLeods, etc.) to cut
fireline, this is by far the hardest thing I have ever done and they do it for
hours in hot and smokey conditions. When we would see an inmate crew coming,
it made our day and we were all very thankful for them.

_ Note, my hourly pay wasn't actually great, but during fires I racked up tons
of overtime. It probably isn't too much different than locking an McDonald's
employee in for weeks at a time, but having to pay them for the entire time
they were there.

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thejrk
Inmates can choose to do this. Considering that, I don't have a problem with
this at all.

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giarc
I assume firefighters are not unionized in California? Otherwise I imagine the
union getting pretty upset that unskilled, non union members are being paid to
do the job of union members.

~~~
hexane360
That's a pretty bad assumption. . .

~~~
giarc
I guess I should have said... I assume the firefighters they are working
beside are not unionized. I've never seen a union allow un-unionized workers
do the job of one of their members.

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mesozoic
$2 + 2 days of freedom

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petermcneeley
I would wager some HN karma that people that are libertarian (classical
liberal) likely see no major issue with this practice.

~~~
hassan_shaikley
libertarianism contradicts classical liberalism

I think this is where I read the best argument for this
([https://chomsky.info/government-in-the-
future/](https://chomsky.info/government-in-the-future/)) but I might be
thinking of a different essay

~~~
petermcneeley
For obvious reasons libertarianism has multiple meanings. Chomsky is close to
anarcho-syndicalism (left) whereas what we commonly call Libertarian today is
close to anarcho-capitalism (right). Relating to the article, the inmates are
making a choice without direct use of force against them. Libertarians view
this choice as voluntary.

------
ngngngng
"See that's that privately owned prisons Get your piece today They prolly all
in the Hamptons Braggin' 'bout what they made Fuck you and your Hampton house
I'll fuck your Hampton spouse" \- Kanye West

