

Ugly BBC Interview Touches on Deeper Issues in London Riots  - sasvari
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2011/08/ugly-bbc-interview-touches-deeper-issues-london-riots/41053/

======
iuguy
For the benefit of the HN readers outside of the UK. I'm one of the UK-based
HN'ers. I don't live in London but am close enough to pass through on an
almost daily basis. I'm normally in London about once or twice a week (third
time this week today). This is my opinion. I know people involved in Youth
Offending Services and plenty of police forces, but it is just and opinion. I
spoke to a friend in Youth Offending Services, they were just surprised that
it hadn't happened sooner.

Put simply, our policing and justice models are broken. Everything is broken
from the level of force the police are allowed to apply, through to the way
that targets are set up to the sentences that magistrates are allowed to set.

The rehabilitation model is also broken. Youths who get into trouble are
forced to attend courses to discuss their feelings. There is no real sense of
punishment and for them there are no real consequences. As a result of all of
this, we have bred several generations of a failed underclass, some of whom
have no sense of personal responsibility. We have entire generations on
welfare where kids don't really have a hope in hell of getting out of the hole
they're in.

At the same time they're told that they're entitled to great things in the
media, the role models they're given live a lifestyle far beyond their reach
but promote vicious or illegal activity and that if they want something that
they should take it.

The combination of a lack of consequences and the inability of the police to
control the initial riots has caused other groups across the country to test
the local police forces and there is a slowly growing realisation that the
police are ineffective at stopping this type of crime, unless large numbers
are used.

These people still believe that there will be no consequences for their
actions, and that if they are caught then they'll face little by way of
punishment due to prison overcrowding and the sheer volume of crime. Here's an
interview with a rioter, and with people who've decided to take the law into
their own hands in Manchester:
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646....](http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm)

There is no simple resolution to this situation. Many people are calling for
the army to go in, but the problem isn't that the police are ineffectual and
outnumbered, it's that they're not allowed to engage. This in turn enrages
local people who see the police at one end of the street while looters strip
somewhere clean at the other end. This will not end well, mark my words.

If the police manage to restore order completely across the country for long
enough then there's a chance that we can return to what we've had, but the
genie has come out of the bottle and the feral elements of the underclass know
that there are limits to the capabilities to stop them in the first place.

If the police cannot restore order, then things will get worse as softer
targets are chosen (such as purely residential areas, currently largely
untouched) and people take the law into their own hands.

Again - this is just my opinion. You may have one. I may be wrong. I just
thought I'd write this in case people want an idea of what's being discussed
round these parts.

~~~
alexholehouse
I just wrote a very similar response, but it now seems superfluous.

This is a by-product of the chav generations. It's the same people that make
city centres essentially a no-go area on Friday and Saturday night. It's the
outcome of a binge drinking culture which has been galvanized by the popular
media. It's a result of overcrowded prisons, failing schools and a lack of
things for young people to do.

I don't really know if there's a fix for this. I'm certainly not smart enough
to have one, and I don't think there's any easy solution. The government needs
to prioritise critical services like the NHS (a whole other debate on whether
it's actually doing that) as well as other core services. It's difficult to
justify youth centres and programs if hospitals are dangerously underfunded,
especially when there is no quantitative or conclusive evidence regarding
their efficacy. In the financial climate it's tough to enforce legislation
without hurting international competitivness, already so many companies are
leaving the UK for eastern Europe, India and China.

It's a mess, no doubt about it, and while I'm sure people have very strong
opinions on aspects of what I've touched upon, there is a naivety to assume
_you_ know the answer to the problem. It's multidimensional, but without any
clearly defined data, and different elements are changing at different rates.
Politicians are in reality not stupid, despite what we might want to suggest,
and a democratic system does ensure moderation, if nothing else. I hope
someone has some ideas soon though, because the UK is slipping, and I don't
like where it's going.

[I should probably also add that these are my opinions, having grown up both
around the UK and in mainland Europe. I could be wrong, and frankly I really
hope I am]

------
uxp
It should be noted that UK law doesn't allow the news to air unconfirmed
speculation as fact or else they, as well as the person saying it, can be held
liable for defamation. The interviewer, by UK law and most likely BBC policy,
is required to interrupt him after he says that a boy was shot in the face by
police because the BBC can't prove that the boy was shot in the face.

Initial reports I've read are that the boy he says was fatally shot by police
was first non-fatally shot in the bicep, and then fatally shot in the chest.
Enough of a difference to warrant the interruption in that case.

~~~
binarymax
Yes, and yet, at 3:44 in the video she states "...You have taken part in
[riots] yourself." Which is pure speculation. She showed very little integrity
in that accusation.

~~~
iuguy
But it isn't speculation[1], he's organised riots[2]. Darcus Howe is a far-
left ex-Black Panther who sees nearly everything through colour[3]. If you
take a moment to read his columns you'll see recurring themes about how black
people are treated. Take it with a massive rock of salt.

[1] -
[http://www.internationaltimes.it/index.php?year=1971&vol...](http://www.internationaltimes.it/index.php?year=1971&volume=IT-
Volume-1&issue=96&item=IT_1971-01-28_B-IT-Volume-1_Iss-96_003)

[2] - [http://www.nickelinthemachine.com/2008/08/brixton-and-the-
ri...](http://www.nickelinthemachine.com/2008/08/brixton-and-the-riots-
in-1981/)

[3] - <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4360054.stm>

------
powertower
There are no deeper issues in juveniles stealing, breaking and burning down
what they can for the LOLs.

People want an explanation and a reason for all this, so they make one up.

You don't "riot" against other innocent people, you riot against the
government. These mutts are doing the former, not the latter.

~~~
cryptoz
There _are_ deeper issues. There's a big difference between excuses and
explanations: there are no excuses for the behavior, but there's plenty of
reason to search for explanations. _Why_ are the riots happening? People don't
smash things just because they want to. There's a reason, even if you disagree
with it and think it's unjust.

I'm not sure what the reasons are behind the riots, but I'm sure that they are
not "random" and (haha) "isolated" as the BBC often puts it. The interview
here shows the BBC "reporter" asking leading questions to attempt to deceive
her audience and to curve the conversation to fit a pre-determined story. She
attempts to discredit him on numerous occasions. Her behavior is childish and
irresponsible - and THAT is the deeper issue I see here.

I don't know why the riots are happening the way they are, but the police and
the BBC (and most other media) are handling it very poorly. There are deeper
issues, whether you like that fact or not.

~~~
powertower
> People don't smash things just because they want to. There's a reason, even
> if you disagree with it and think it's unjust.

14-18 year old punks do exactly that... smash things just because they want.

~~~
cryptoz
First, most of the serious arson and crime in these riots seems to be
committed by adults.

> 14-18 year old punks do exactly that... smash things just because they want.

Second, if that's the case then why aren't 14-18 year olds smashing things
daily in California? And Tokyo? And all over the world? The question is why
England? Why right now? Why not two weeks ago?

Those are valid questions to ask, and searching for answers is a useful
activity. It will reveal knowledge about humans, help us build better
societies in the future.

Ignoring all causes and blindly, ignorantly saying that people smash things
"just because" is just as dumb as the people smashing things.

~~~
powertower
> First, most of the serious arson and crime in these riots seems to be
> committed by adults.

That's contrary to every single image and video published.

> Second, if that's the case then why aren't 14-18 year olds smashing things
> daily in California? And Tokyo? And all over the world? The question is why
> England? Why right now? Why not two weeks ago?

Why would they? No one is claiming that _all_ 14-18 year olds do this... Only
a sub-group that have nothing better to do, that have no supervision, that
blame everyone for everything, that think this is all LOLs and fun, that want
to take rather than work, that want to destroy rather than create, etc.

Events occur that develop criticality (group size, slow response of police,
etc) all the time.

It's simple: # of punks + _no police response_ = looting and burning.

Just take a look at the videos on the right...
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14461431>

~~~
angdis
It absolutely is NOT SIMPLE.

I agree that mob mentality can reach "criticality" and cause crazy stuff to
happen over one night. The thing that makes this different from a football
riot (or the WTO riots), however, is that the activity is sustained and
spreading. I feel it demonstrates an intense hate on the part of the rioters.

This kind of violence indicates a core problem which cannot be addressed in
the long term by police swinging billy clubs and shooting water cannons. I
expect that this will get ugly at some point in the future even if the police
manage to quell the immediate problem.

------
neodawn
The customary apology...

[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/bbc-
apologi...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/bbc-apologises-
over-darcus-howe-interview-2335357.html)

