
How do you get to write so well in HN? - nevergetenglish
 Sometimes when reading HN I wonder how people get to express their ideas in such a clear and persuasive way, many times they seem to be very intelligent and informed. I have been trying to improve my English a little but not having anybody to write to or any need to use English makes me believe that I will be stagnated in a low level  profile, and that I will never will achieve the level of mastery and proficiency they show so well in their writing.<p>Recently, reading some cites,  like Rooselvelt &quot;man in the arena&quot; I got a little sad because perhaps I am  doomed to never be such a great speaker.  Anyway, I will continue reading HN, enyoing such an intelligent and  informative community and trying to hone my English. So bravo for HN.<p>I find it not justice that &quot;Tim Cook Speaks Up&quot; is eating my cake. What if I am only a heterosexual guy, a troll and my only goal is to get some karma points.<p>I realize that the language topic is a pure one and that it should be separated (sanned) from a egotists, only looking for karma points guy. But what?, you guys are beautiful and constructive, sorry for not just being that type.
======
mixmax
There's a fallacy here, and interestingly it's also at play on facebook.

You know when you look through your feed on facebook, and every single day you
see that at least one of your friends has done something amazing, commendable
or just interesting? That makes you feel that you aren't doing anything with
your life, and that all your friends seem to be living more interesting and
happier lives.

But stop and think for a moment. Approach it from the other side. If you have
365 friends, and you post one interesting post a year you are faring as well
as the average of your friends. It just _seems_ that everyone is doing more
interesting things than you because you only notice the interesting things
your friends post. You only see the highlights. Nobody posts a "today was
boring - I did absolutely nothing" status.

HN is the same. Think a bit about it.

If 10.000 people see a comment thread then statistically someone will be
knowledgeable about the subject, whether its the French Revolution or the
finer nuances of L2 caching. The most knowledgeable ones will feel they have
something to contribute and write a comment. The vast majority won't. On top
of that the top comment is (supposedly) the most well-written, eloquent and
knowledgeable, and can thus be argued to be the best 10.000 people can come up
with.

If I were to start commenting on threads about L2 caches I would make an
absolute fool of myself, and prove to everyone that I have no clue what I'm
talking about. So I don't.

~~~
JoshTriplett
That's a really good example of impostor syndrome on a grand scale.

Also see [http://alistapart.com/column/seeing-past-the-highlight-
reel](http://alistapart.com/column/seeing-past-the-highlight-reel) : "we
compare our behind-the-scenes with everyone else’s highlight reel".

People also tend to sound far better in writing, precisely because they have
the opportunity to compose and edit; you don't necessarily see the volume of
composition and editing that goes into the average post. Anecdotally, I'd
suggest that it takes far longer to write a quality post than you'd guess.
Short content can take all the longer to write, precisely because of its
brevity. ("I have made this letter longer than usual, because I lack the time
to make it short." \-- Blaise Pascal)

(I also like this image: [http://open.bufferapp.com/wp-
content/uploads/2014/09/0-VtB9_...](http://open.bufferapp.com/wp-
content/uploads/2014/09/0-VtB9_W6sRf4z6O0d.png) )

And that's just on an _individual_ level, comparing yourself to one specific
other person. When you compare yourself to an entire community of people and
their highlights, you run into exactly the issue mixmax noted: the most
knowledgeable and confident people will post, and a subset of those will get
upvoted.

Comparing yourself individually to the best of what a large community can
offer is like asking why you're not an Olympic athlete.

If you want to build up your skills in writing specifically, consider focusing
your writing on areas you already have expertise in, or on areas that you're
actively learning about to provide an "experiences" type of writeup. And
compare yourself primarily to your past self.

------
Lambdanaut
Great question. I think it's on more people's minds than you think. I have
friends that have brought this feeling up with me. HN brings a lot of great
minds together, including your own. It can create feelings of inadequacy in
many readers, but it shouldn't. Everyone is always growing. You can write well
too.

As with any skill, there are specific quick hacks you can apply to get a lot
of gain really fast, and there are well-worn paths that you should travel to
maximize gains and minimize time spent. Regardless, the best way to learn any
skill is through sheer practice.

My methodology for posting comments on HN or any social news site is based on
my values. I value production over consumption, and so to curb my consumption
and increase my production I created a rule for myself: If I read a post on
social media(HN, reddit, etc), I have to leave a comment on it. No ifs ands or
buts. I almost never actually want to comment, but by the time I'm done
commenting I'm always glad I did.

This is amazing for becoming a better writer and researcher, and forces you to
dive into things that you normally would only attain a surface-level
understanding of.

Every time I decide to go to a social media site, I have to be very conscious
of the titles I click on to read. I understand that the moment I begin reading
an article, I am committed to adding something of value to the discussion.
Sometimes I wind up clicking on an article that is way out of my domain-
knowledge, and so I have to read WAY more about it before I can even try to
add to the discussion. I end up learning far more and also upping my ability
to explain and present myself in situations where I'm uncomfortable with the
domain.

So while I encourage you to practice your writing, I also encourage you to
limit your consumption, strongly link your consumption with your practice, and
most importantly, _step out of your domain knowledge and never be afraid to
learn something new._

~~~
jonnathanson
I agree with virtually everything you've said, except for the part about
limiting consumption. Limit consumption on certain channels (Facebook,
Buzzfeed, etc.). Increase consumption on other channels (books, deeply
analytical blogs, good magazines, and even fiction). And every so often, lose
yourself on Wikipedia for a few hours. Jump down some hyperlinked rabbit holes
there. Soak up random knowledge, purely for the sake of intellectual
curiosity. Start on The Industrial Revolution and wind up, three or five
clicks later, on the use of tunnel irrigation in ancient Mesopotamia.

The best way to become a better writer, a better thinker, or a more informed
commenter, is to become a curious and habitual reader. Some of the best
topical insights I've ever had have come from seeing analogs in wildly
different domains. Some of the best writing techniques I've developed have
come from reading wildly different writing styles. Almost none of this has
been directed toward a specific outcome or contextual purpose. I read because
I like to read. What I read may or may not prove useful later on. But it's
almost always later on.

~~~
Lambdanaut
No worries, I agree with you 100%

I'm referring specifically to low-quality consumption, but didn't want to fill
up a long spiel about that since it was another topic. I should've been more
specific.

------
enkiv2
Most people who come off as eloquent in english have spent a lot of time not
only writing but also reading. Reading encourages passive learning of language
patterns, and reading the works of talented writers (even without analysis)
can lead to learning some of the skills that those writers use. (I'd be
surprised if this were not also the case in your native language.) If you feel
like you can't get enough practice speaking and writing english in a
conversational context, spend some of the time you would otherwise use to
practice writing english instead reading fiction in english.

~~~
clebio
This and this again. As a few commenters note, reading exposes you to other
ways of structuring and phrasing your own writing. As with reading code, you
get exposure to writing styles by reading other's writing.

Read writers of different styles, and read poetry. At the risk of leaving out
hundreds, off-hand, read Betrand Russell, Nabakov, Dylan Thomas, Louisa May
Alcott, Kerouac. (Try to ignore the fact that Nabakov wrote exquisitely well
in more languages than most people speak.)

Read these works aloud, because they sound differently than they scan on the
page. Especially if it's something you like, or something that you find hard
to read and parse.

Emulate each style. Try copying their words verbatim, because you'll realize
things that are easy to skim over when reading. Then try writing something
new, but using their style, acting out their style.

Realize that some writing is not meant to be accessible and assume that there
will be writers whom you respect, but whose writing styles you don't like.
Understand why you don't like those styles and how to avoid those forms --
what did they do and how can you say the same thing but not in that voice.

And, of course, write as well. Write a lot.

------
danso
My main profession has been a writer...and since joining HN, I've probably
written 10x more words on these comment boards than for any other forum or
published medium. I can't say that I'm actively trying to practice...but
discussion here is (usually) so enjoyable that it's easy to get in the
habit...just like playing recreational soccer for fun can often be a better
way to get in shape than a dedicated running regimen.

If English and writing is not something you've been able to devote yourself
to, I would recommend something in addition to frequent commenting: pick up a
copy of "The Elements of Style"
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Style](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Style))
and as you write comments on HN (or blog posts)...pick a rule in Elements of
Style and focus on the technique mentioned. For example, rule 12, _Prefer the
specific to the general, the definite to the vague, the concrete to the
abstract._

e.g. "He showed satisfaction as he took possession of his well-earned reward"
versus "He grinned as he pocketed the coin".

Look over your comment and revise it according to the technique. Rinse,
repeat, etc.

Elements of Style is an old book, but I still find it to be great advice. I've
thought about making such a book for programming in a high level language (I
know such a book exists for C/C++)...because good style can really influence
good function.

Also, assuming that you're using a throwaway profile for this comment, make a
profile with your real name and identity. This has been discussed on HN
before, but being accountable to your identity is a nice push to make you even
more attentive to your quality of writing.

------
boyaka
1\. Your writing per this example seems perfectly fine.

2\. English skill is separate from being intelligent/informed.

As a native speaker who has had very extensive English training my entire
life, I still find myself in a situation similar to yours. My issue is lack of
experience. There are so many people on HN that have been through it all and
know about countless technical topics inside and out. I find myself just
observing most of the time, besides those rare occasions where the topic
happens to overlap with my experiences.

I have certainly encountered examples of horrible English that were still
highly informative posts. Sure it can inhibit their communication ability, but
that doesn't prevent the content from shining through. In fact, I tend to be
more interested in content from non-native speakers, because it implies they
are probably not from America and have points of view that are more
valuable/unique for me to learn about.

------
jarin
Read a lot. Read fiction and non-fiction books. Read poetry. Read Wikipedia.
Read the newspaper. Read news websites. You'll start to build a mental
database of words, phrases, and writing tricks that you can draw from. (Notice
the anaphora and Rule of Three right there?)

Listen to public radio and pay attention to how people speak. Good writing
should flow naturally, like a conversation with a close friend. Learn how to
type quickly, so the words can flow from your mind without the encumbrance of
having to remember where the keys are on your keyboard.

Oh yeah, and write a lot. Most importantly, when you write, make a conscious
effort to write well. _Think_ about what you're writing, don't just put words
on the page. Think about things like, "should I have used a semicolon in that
last sentence, instead of a comma?" "Should the 'S' in 'should' have been
capitalized? Look it up if you're not sure. Ask yourself if the word you've
chosen conveys your intended meaning, and ask yourself if that sentence is a
run-on sentence.

------
tokenadult
In reply, I say bravo for trying to become a better writer. And if English is
not your native language, don't become discouraged too soon if your progress
seems slow at first. I've been very impressed by the English writing here of
some people who plainly grew up speaking some other language in a non-English-
speaking country. Keep practicing, and you will become better.

For specific writing advice, I recommend the new book _The Sense of Style_ [1]
by Steven Pinker, which is about not just fussy rules of English but also
about THINKING in a way that helps improve writing. I will have to practice
with the ideas in that book for a long time.

For specific advice on improving English, I have some tips I've shared before
here on Hacker News that other readers have liked. As I learned Mandarin
Chinese up to the level that I was able to support my family for several years
as a Chinese-English translator and interpreter, I had to tackle several
problems for which there is not yet a one-stop-shopping software solution. For
ANY pair of languages, even closely cognate pairs of West Germanic languages
like English and Dutch, or Wu Chinese dialects like those of Shanghai and
Suzhou, the two languages differ in sound system, so that what is a phoneme in
one language is not a phoneme in the other language.

[http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/Wha...](http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsAPhoneme.htm)

But a speaker of one language who is past the age of puberty will simply not
perceive many of the phonemic distinctions in sounds in the target language
(the language to be learned) without very careful training, as disregard of
those distinctions below the level of conscious attention is part of having
the sound system of the speaker's native language fully in mind. Attention to
target language phonemes has to be developed through pains-taking practice.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10442032](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10442032)

It is brutally hard for most people (after the age of puberty, and perhaps
especially for males) to learn to attend to sound distinctions that don't
exist in the learner's native language. That is especially hard when the sound
distinction signifies a grammatical distinction that also doesn't exist in the
learner's native language. For example, the distinction between "I speak" and
"he speaks" in English involves a consonant cluster at the end of a syllable,
and no such consonant clusters exist in the Mandarin sound system at all.
Worse than that, no such grammatical distinction as "first person singular"
and "third person singular" for inflecting verbs exists in Mandarin, so it is
remarkably difficult for Mandarin-speaking learners of English to learn to
distinguish "speaks" from "speak" and to say "he speaks Chinese" rather than *
"he speak Chinese" (not a grammatical phrase in spoken English).

Most software materials for learning foreign languages could be much improved
simply by including a complete chart of the sound system of the target
language (in the dialect form being taught in the software materials) with
explicit description of sounds in the terminology of articulatory phonetics

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articulatory_phonetics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articulatory_phonetics)

with full use of notation from the International Phonetic Alphabet.

[http://www.langsci.ucl.ac.uk/ipa/ipachart.html](http://www.langsci.ucl.ac.uk/ipa/ipachart.html)

Good language-learning materials always include a lot of focused drills on
sound distinctions (contrasting minimal pairs in the language) in the target
language, and no software program for language learning should be without
those. It is still an art of software writing to try to automate listening to
a learner's pronunciation for appropriate feedback on accuracy of
pronunciation. That is not an easy problem.

After phonology, another huge task for any language learner is acquiring
vocabulary, and this is the task on which most language-learning materials are
most focused. But often the focus on vocabulary is not very thoughtful.

The classic software approach to helping vocabulary acquisition is essentially
to automate flipping flash cards. But flash cards have ALWAYS been overrated
for vocabulary acquisition. Words don't match one-to-one between languages,
not even between closely cognate languages. The map is not the territory, and
every language on earth divides the world of lived experience into a different
set of words, with different boundaries between words of similar meaning.

The royal road to learning vocabulary in a target language is massive exposure
to actual texts (dialogs, stories, songs, personal letters, articles, etc.)
written or spoken by native speakers of the language. I'll quote a master
language teacher here, the late John DeFrancis. A few years ago, I reread the
section "Suggestions for Study" in the front matter of John DeFrancis's book
Beginning Chinese Reader, Part I, which I first used to learn Chinese back in
1975. In that section of that book, I found this passage, "Fluency in reading
can only be achieved by extensive practice on all the interrelated aspects of
the reading process. To accomplish this we must READ, READ, READ"
(capitalization as in original). In other words, vocabulary can only be well
acquired in context (an argument he develops in detail with regard to Chinese
in the writing I have just cited) and the context must be a genuine context
produced by native speakers of the language.

I have been giving free advice on language learning since the 1990s on my
personal website,

[http://learninfreedom.org/languagebooks.html](http://learninfreedom.org/languagebooks.html)

and the one advice I can give every language learner reading this thread is to
take advantage of radio broadcasting in your target language. Spoken-word
broadcasting (here I'm especially focusing on radio rather than on TV) gives
you an opportunity to listen and to hear words used in context. In the 1970s,
I used to have to use an expensive short-wave radio to pick up Chinese-
language radio programs in North America. Now we who have Internet access can
gain endless listening opportunities from Internet radio stations in dozens of
unlikely languages. Listen early and listen often while learning a language.
That will help with phonology (as above) and it will help crucially with
vocabulary.

The third big task of a language learner is learning grammar and syntax, which
is often woefully neglected in software language-learning materials. Every
language has hundreds of tacit grammar rules, many of which are not known
explicitly even to native speakers, but which reveal a language-learner as a
foreigner when the rules are broken. The foreign language-learner needs to
understand grammar not just to produce speech or writing that is less jarring
and foreign to native speakers, but also to better understand what native
speakers are speaking or writing. Any widely spoken modern language has thick
books reporting the grammatical rules of the language,

[http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Comprehensive-Grammar-
Grammars...](http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Comprehensive-Grammar-
Grammars/dp/0415150329/)

[http://www.amazon.com/Comprehensive-Grammar-English-
Language...](http://www.amazon.com/Comprehensive-Grammar-English-
Language/dp/0582517346/)

[http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Grammar-English-
Language/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Grammar-English-
Language/dp/0521431468/)

and it is well worth your while to study books like that both about your
native language(s) and about any language you are studying. Good luck.

[1] [http://stevenpinker.com/publications/sense-style-thinking-
pe...](http://stevenpinker.com/publications/sense-style-thinking-persons-
guide-writing-21st-century)

~~~
toomuchtodo
This is a phenomenal reply tokenadult. Would you be willing to reply to the
same question if I post it in
[http://writers.stackexchange.com/](http://writers.stackexchange.com/)?

~~~
tokenadult
I'd have to register an account over there, but I could get ready for that
while you post the question. Thanks for the suggestion.

AFTER EDIT: I'm registered on Stack Exchange now. I refer in my user profile
there to my Hacker News user I.D.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Thank you! I'd love you buy you a beer or coffee in return!

~~~
TeMPOraL
Post the link to the question when you submit it :).

------
zaphar
There are two things that helped me when getting better at writing.

1\. Reading other good writing. 2\. Practicing writing.

The first one is pretty self explanatory. Just read good writing and analyze
the patterns they use to express themselves.

The second involves practicing the art of writing. When I write, even on a
site like HN, I take my time.

The first draft is a throwaway. I just dump what's in my head on the screen or
paper.

Then I "refactor" it. I add organization to the thoughts and concepts and then
I ruthlessly cut anything not crucial to what I want to express.

I have a last step I use when It's a blog post or article. I use an "editor"
usually my wife who looks it over misspellings, grammar, or confusing content.
I don't usually do that for HN though since it's a more informal medium.

------
toxophile
Advice to practice is good. Advice on HOW to practice may be useful, too.

Try summarising other people's texts - and don't just take each sentence
separately and try to make it shorter, take all the ideas in the piece and
experiment with reorganising them in your mind and then on the page to produce
a more elegant and concise means of expressing them to your reader. Lots of
the good HN writers you've noted see the short and compelling 'elevator pitch'
that summarises months of work and aspiration as their greatest challenge.
Politicians are always looking for the 10 word phrase that conveys the heart
of their policy.

Read what you write back to yourself. Aloud. Good writing also tends to be
'performable' \- no rambling subclauses to get lost in, no awkward word
combinations that make the speaker (or listener, or reader) stumble and
disengage. Be more Harrison Ford and less George Lucas (Han Solo said
something like "You can write this stuff, George, but I can't say it")

And finally, do exactly what you've started here: Seek advice and feedback.
This is a community that shares ideas, so dive in, but ask for comment on how
you express them as well as their content. Grab a native speaker and check
your idioms. Ask friends to point out the clunky sentences that lets down an
otherwise good paragraph.

Good luck to you!

------
jordanpg
ESR noted this way back when [1]:

"4\. If you don't have functional English, learn it.

As an American and native English-speaker myself, I have previously been
reluctant to suggest this, lest it be taken as a sort of cultural imperialism.
But several native speakers of other languages have urged me to point out that
English is the working language of the hacker culture and the Internet, and
that you will need to know it to function in the hacker community.

Back around 1991 I learned that many hackers who have English as a second
language use it in technical discussions even when they share a birth tongue;
it was reported to me at the time that English has a richer technical
vocabulary than any other language and is therefore simply a better tool for
the job. For similar reasons, translations of technical books written in
English are often unsatisfactory (when they get done at all).

Linus Torvalds, a Finn, comments his code in English (it apparently never
occurred to him to do otherwise). His fluency in English has been an important
factor in his ability to recruit a worldwide community of developers for
Linux. It's an example worth following.

Being a native English-speaker does not guarantee that you have language
skills good enough to function as a hacker. If your writing is semi-literate,
ungrammatical, and riddled with misspellings, many hackers (including myself)
will tend to ignore you. While sloppy writing does not invariably mean sloppy
thinking, we've generally found the correlation to be strong — and we have no
use for sloppy thinkers. If you can't yet write competently, learn to."

There is a lot in common between good argumentative skills and good coding.

[http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-
howto.html#skills4](http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#skills4)

~~~
atmosx
> For similar reasons, translations of technical books written in English are
> often unsatisfactory (when they get done at all).

That's true. When I read a CS book in Greek, it's hard to understand what the
author wants at once. Words like _module_ when talking about kernels for
example, are not easy to translate.

------
izolate
I'm glad I'm not alone in noticing this. The level of discourse on HN is step
beyond any other site I frequent. I don't go a single day without being
impressed by somebody's diction.

Some of you have a knack for articulating my inner thoughts with far more
eloquence than I ever could.

~~~
jnbiche
>The level of discourse on HN is step beyond any other site I frequent.

I agree. HN has recently (in the past 6 months) re-gained a lot of the high-
level discourse that drew me in I first started lurking 4-5 years ago.

Well-done, dang et al.! Not that it was in a hole, but you've succeeded in
bringing the site's discourse up a level.

------
kelukelugames
These two books helped me. The downside is I get annoyed now when reading
other people's bad writing.

[http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Well-30th-Anniversary-
Edition/...](http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Well-30th-Anniversary-
Edition/dp/0060891548/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414687236&sr=8-1&keywords=on+writing+well+by+william+zinsser)

[http://www.amazon.com/The-Curious-Case-Misplaced-
Modifier/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Curious-Case-Misplaced-
Modifier/dp/1582975612/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414687300&sr=8-1&keywords=the+misplaced+modifier)

------
spindritf
English is my second language and posting a comment on HN takes me five
rewrites before clicking "add comment" and two+ edits after. Even then they
don't necessarily come out all that clear judging by some of the responses I
get.

Maybe start a blog in English or hang out in IRC channels related to your
interests?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Hey I speak "Standard American English" and I post on HN exactly the same way.
I'd call you proficient in written English, no excuses needed.

------
bravura
You speak well enough that most people won't point out problems in your
language. That's an issue because you aren't getting enough feedback to make
progress.

To wit, I haven't seen anyone given you concrete feedback on your writing.

Your writing is generally good, but you occasionally use words in non-
idiomatic ways. The effect is jarring because the rest of the writing seems
solid.

For example: "makes me believe that I will be stagnated" You are using the
word "stagnate" improperly. One cannot "be stagnated". (It's not a transitive
verb). You should write "makes me believe that I will stagnate"

Or, perhaps this is cultural, I couldn't really understand this sentence: 'I
find it not justice that "Tim Cook Speaks Up" is eating my cake. What if I am
only a heterosexual guy, a troll and my only goal is to get some karma
points.' It came across really strangely, and made me feel uncomfortable, like
there was some joke I didn't understand.

My main feedback is find a trusted native speaker who will actually point out
when you say something in a non-standard way.

You should actively solicit criticism of how you speak, from people that you
like and trust. Explain to these people that they won't hurt your feelings,
but that they are helping you learn. Encourage them to point out to you when
you say something that is understandable but sounds funny.

------
liox
"Read books. A lot of books." An invaluable piece of advice from a
distinguished philosophy professor of mine.

As a freshmen I'd somehow found my way into his ancient philosophy course–a
junior/senior elective typically reserved for PHL majors. While I was able to
pass the course, I was always embarrassed by my paper submissions because
they'd be returned to me dripping in red ink from his observations. This was a
man that had his own translations of Plato's works published in textbooks, and
he cared enough to take the time to point out my juvenile grammatical errors
on 20 page papers! At the close of the course I wanted to "make amends" for my
shortcomings by asking him how I could improve my writing ability. I
anticipated he'd recommend some tome on grammar [that I'd never end up
reading] but instead he simply said "Read books. A lot of books" and he left
it at that.

I've no idea of the count of books I've read since taking his advice to heart,
but it's made an enormous difference in the way I structure prose, the
vocabulary I use, the tone & voice of my writing, and I could go on... I feel
that if you read the works of authors you like on topics that you enjoy,
you'll absorb much of what makes their works great. You'll find yourself
improving without consciously trying to improve your mechanics–but you need to
enjoy what you read for it to work!

And as a check on your own development? Throw in works like "A Clockwork
Orange" or "Fight Club" from time to time. These works have intentional errors
and nonsense thrown in by their authors to mess with their readers. If your
head begins to hurt while reading them then, in terms of your own development
of skills, you've done something right!

------
blauwbilgorgel
The guidelines say to write as if you were face to face to a person. You
wouldn't probably mention those nasty things, or at least you try to hide it
behind constructive criticism.

Take this one step further: For everything you write, imagine the utmost
authority on that topic reading your post. A blunt example: A rant about
Python syntax. Imagine Guido van Rossum reading that during his coffee break.

Do not post if you can not add anything to the discussion. Assume your debater
is smarter than you and knows more on the subject. This is still HackerNews.
Ask someone if they have won the Putnam prize, and you may be unpleasantly
surprised. [1]

Read and practice:
[http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html)

Use your spell-checker. Write shorter sentences to avoid grammatical errors.
Nobody is too smart for short, simple sentences.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079).

------
rokhayakebe
Art:

"If truth was self evident, Eloquence wouldn't be needed." And surely we need
eloquence. I share your envy. I believe you have to imitate the writers/users
you enjoy reading the most. As you go along, you will develop your style.
Think of words as colors, and _beautify_ your sentences.

Science:

Pick up a book on Logic, preferably very old, then Rhetoric. Done!

------
hackuser
A few thoughts:

1) Your English seems fine! I see little difference between your writing and
others' here.

2) The writing on Hacker News isn't especially good. I would aim much higher;
study writing as a craft and skill (I'll add suggestions below). I even wonder
if your post is a troll, flattering HN posters!

> I wonder how people get to express their ideas in such a clear and
> persuasive way, many times they seem to be very intelligent and informed.

3) I wouldn't assume that those appearances match reality. Unfortunately there
is little relationship between writing persuasively and presenting accurate
information, and between appearing informed and actually being informed.
Throughout history, many misinformed or deceitful people have persuaded others
to follow them into catastrophe.

4) Suggestions for studying writing:

* Write. There is no substitute. Set aside regular time every day to write essays, fiction, poetry -- anything expressive and carefully thought through.

* You must think clearly to write clearly. If you don't understand your thoughts well, how can you express them to others? Get your thoughts in order and understand your feelings before you write.

* Take classes in composition; online classes are fine. Also here are two short books I (and many others) highly recommend: The Elements of Style by Strunk and White, and Style by Joseph Williams.

* As much as you can, read only the best; you will learn from what you read, so don't learn mediocrity. I mean great craftsmen of language such as Hemingway, Nabokov, or Martin Amis; there are many others and generally you can find them among the authors of what is considered great "literature".[1]

[1] I know some here will feel that's snobbish, but great skill with language
is essentially a requirement of literature and not of other genres, which have
their own strengths.

------
nlh
In addition to practice (which many here have suggested - and they're good
suggestions!), it would probably be helpful to get some feedback on your
writing as well. I find in coding at least (the closest comparison I can make
since I'm a typical American and only speak 1 language), the absolute best and
most "rich" learning is done when someone corrects/improves work I've already
thought about and tried.

Not in an insulting way of course - just in an improving way. And on that
note, I'd be more than happy to give you feedback on your posts & comments
here if it would be helpful and not offensive. In public or in private. Just
let me know!

------
arh68
Go ahead, take a swim in this ocean of mediocrity. See the button below the
box? It says _add comment_. Not 'Submit Dissertation'. Not 'Final Opinion'.
Just remarks made in passing. Like tears, in rain.

Don't try to imitate 'diction' or 'mastery'. Express yourself as simply as you
can.

And don't feel bad if you can't express something naturally in English. There
are limits to the language. You are most likely able to imagine things you
cannot precisely say in English.

------
snowwrestler
I'm going to give some advice that I think is essential to improving your
writing, but I haven't yet seen in the comments here:

Work with an editor.

Almost every great writer you can think of in recent history has had a good
editor, at the beginning of a career, or in many cases throughout their entire
career.

If you were a professional writer, you'd have a professional editor. Since it
sounds like you're not, you'll need to find your editor some other way. Here
are some ideas.

\- Take a writing class, ideally in person. Your editors will be the class
instructor, and depending on the class structure, your fellow students. One
advantage of this approach is that you are given assignments to write about.

\- Find a writing tutor. This will require either you or your tutor to invent
assignments to review and work on. One possible way to do this would be to
review your comments on HN, and read the rest of the comments in that thread.
Work with your tutor to find the comments you think are better, and think
about why that is, and how you could improve your own writing.

\- Find a writing club or group or workshop. These are typically groups of
people who get together informally on a regular basis to review and edit each
others' writing. They are often focused on specific formats--a group of poets,
for example, or a people who enjoy writing short stories.

------
computerjunkie
I was in the same boat when I found out about HN. The amount of detail,
eloquence and prose on technical subjects (or non technical) members talk
about here is fascinating. This is what made me want to improve my own English
and writing.

At first, I was worried that my comments won't be up to scratch if I posted
them, but we all have to _start from somewhere._ Its been well over a year
since I found HN and I am still learning and improving ask I type out this
comment. I like to believe Mastery/Great proficiency in any skill is
understanding that continuous learning.

I personally go about writing comments in these steps below;

1\. Read and understand the article/link being discussed. 2\. Draft out your
comment. 3\. Read your comment to see if it makes sense(includes grammar,
structure, spelling and relevancy). 4\. Comment 5\. See 3. 6\. Edit your
grammar and spelling mistakes, if any. 7\. Repeat 5 and 6.

On top of that, I use [1]Anki to store new, difficult words I don't understand
or I have never come across. I also read novels that I find interesting in my
spare time.

Understanding that it's never ending journey, is the beauty of it, in my
opinion. Also find a referencing format you prefer. I use the [2]IEEE Citation
Style.

[1] [http://ankisrs.net/](http://ankisrs.net/) [2]
[http://www.ieee.org/documents/ieeecitationref.pdf](http://www.ieee.org/documents/ieeecitationref.pdf)

Edit: Probably going to come back and structure this correctly.

------
nevergetenglish
I am the poster I am really enjoying this post going up (now 18.14 time in
Spain) is number five, I am exhilarating with joy. I can't imagine the
pleasure those start ups reach when they launch and they find in their web
that page count and money is rocketing, it must be something ever lasting in
your memory (and better if it last in your pocket).

------
mturmon
You have to practice writing.

On HN, being specific and brief helps a lot.

Being sure you're conceptually clear in what you want to convey helps with
brevity.

------
franciscop
I would recommend not only reading, but also writing a lot of text. I find
that writing text is not much different from programming: if you just _try to
improve a little_ it will not work. You have to make a conscious effort.

Also writing is an iterative process, at least when you are learning a foreign
language. Write a paragraph, then stop and think: __how can I express the same
idea in a better way? __Rewrite it until you cannot add or remove anything
else. Then keep writing another paragraph. After several of them go back to
the first ones and read them for yourself. They might not make sense anymore;
so start again.

It's not simple and not everyone can make it. You have to aim for doing your
best and stop any "it's good enough" thoughts that you might have. There will
be a point when you don't need to rewrite it anymore; that's when you pick up
a a new language (;

TL;DR:

1\. Read 2\. Write 3\. Rewrite 4\. GOTO 1

------
peterfirefly
Writing is rewriting.

For example, this ought to be rewritten:

> I find it not justice that "Tim Cook Speaks Up" is eating my cake. What if I
> am only a heterosexual guy, a troll and my only goal is to get some karma
> points.

So should this:

> I realize that the language topic is a pure one and that it should be
> separated (sanned) from a egotists, only looking for karma points guy. But
> what?, you guys are beautiful and constructive, sorry for not just being
> that type.

Can you rewrite the first quote without using "is eating my cake" and using
something like "I don't find it just"?

Can you rewrite the second quote without "is a pure one" and without "sanned"
(I have no idea what that is supposed to mean) and "separated from a
egostists"?

Can you rewrite it without abusing the punctuation, i.e. without using a
question mark right before a comma?

Can you write 10 different versions of each quote?

------
Igglyboo
Native english speaker here, I have the same problem. I can express my ideas
clearly in my head and when talking to people but my writing is just terrible
IMO. I feel like I'm not taken seriously some of the time because my writing
is bad even though my content is not.

------
scardine
Like people said, it is practice.

Stackoverflow worked wonders for me. Of course at first I sounded like Tarzan,
but after some time I started to get comments like this: "+1 for sense of
humor and for the fact the post is written in normal English, not geek
English".

------
gdubs
If you're interested in learning how to write clearly, check out "The Art of
Plain Talk". [1]

It's dated – from the 1950's I think – but shows how to express ideas with
clear, direct language. A lot of it has to do with using verbs as much as
possible and cutting down on adjectives.

Similarly, Hemingway has always inspired me.

Reading, in general, is very helpful. Read widely, on many subjects. Find
authors whose 'voice' you like, and emulate it in your own writing. Stretch
yourself with publications like The New Yorker, and Harper's.

1: [http://www.amazon.com/Art-Plain-Talk-rudolf-
flesch/dp/002046...](http://www.amazon.com/Art-Plain-Talk-rudolf-
flesch/dp/0020463804)

------
bliti
I would start blogging about what you know (if you don't do so already). Focus
on explaining how to do X. Then write about your opinions. It can be as short
as a paragraph, or as long as a novel. In terms of writing intelligently the
key is to learn about new things. If you desire to write intelligently about
software, then by all means study software from the bottom up. As you study
and learn new things try and explain them in your own words. How you
understood it. The more you explain and the more you write the better your
ability do so will.

I'm horrible with English. But that did not stop me from getting published in
a recognized tech magazine. If I can do it, you can definitely can too.

------
ctdonath
The "write better" goal is one big reason I participate in online discussions
like HN. Big ideas with lots of critics and fast responses mean you have to
learn to write concise, to the point, be persuasive, and be interesting. The
more you write, the better you'll write - so long as you value writing well.
Watch how people respond, both in replies and in up/down "karma" votes. Get in
vigorous (but friendly! always friendly!) discussions with those with opposing
views. Learn verbal "judo", using their words to make your point. Know how
much research is appropriate to make a point; write enough to be thorough &
clear, but not so long as to lose most readers.

Write.

A.

Lot.

------
kasey_junk
I think it is interesting when people say that they are not good writers or
not good public speakers. These are skills like any other. You may or may not
have an aptitude for them, but the only way to get really good at any skill is
practice.

------
icarot
Simply structure your theses, that is, lead your reader down the tree outline
of your thoughts. When those thoughts are worthwhile and clearly expressed,
you yield a result not unlike tokenadult's.

Now, he has actually iterated upon that post and did not write it from
scratch, which I can tell because I recognize his writing style, and he posted
a very similar comment sans the phonemics and phonetics on some of HN thread 2
years back on learning languages[1].

You'll notice trends in the structure, as he moves from his relevant story,
rounds around some inline-defined concepts, and finally closes with a
summarized forward outlook and pitfalls to avoid. As I said, it also helps
that he already had the general idea behind this organized, combined with his
experience in the area of learning a Sinnitic language.

And don't believe we're so high and mighty, if tempted. We make mistakes all
the time, and as I pointed above, you may not have realized that tokenadult
had an outline for this already in his head. You also may not realize that he
made a mistake - the consonant cluster differentiating 'speak' and 'speaks' is
not grammatical (i.e., describing relations between words) but, rather,
lexical (i.e., referring to different ideas). This is an incredibly minor
terminology kludge. Yet how often can that happen, escaping your notice, on a
comment on L2 caching? On the exact algorithmic analysis of a bloom filter? On
vague theoretical concepts such as referential transparency? Ad infinitum.

Don't overthink it too much (if you get me), just write as you did above. That
is precisely how you will, eventually get to tokenadult's level.

As Alan Perlis: "What you know about computing other people will learn. What's
in your hands, I think and hope, is intelligence: the ability to see the
machine as more than when you were first led up to it, that you can make it
more."

What others know of X you will learn, because what's in your hands is
intelligence and openness.

Peace in your journey.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4714388](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4714388)

------
denzil_correa
I think the crux of your problem is to express ideas and not really English
per se.

The best way to convey ideas is ... to practice conveying them. This might
sound a bit cliché but bear with me for a moment. You can certainly read books
but please practice the books and see what is good for you.

The next question is - where will you practice? Participate in good online
forums and offline discussions. Reddit, Stackoverflow and HN are great online
forums.

How does practice help? It will give you active feedback if your thoughts are
being conveyed. It will give you a real-time personal assessment of your
expression.

PS - Please take my assumption and advice with a pinch of salt!

------
RichardKain
"Elements of Style" remains the best single volume guide to writing. Stephen
King's "On Writing" is fun and a good follow up. I concur with the read great
writing and practice a lot tips. But how to practice? It's old fashioned and
slower, but try printing out what you're writing and read it aloud. Make edits
in pen on the draft. To force the concision Elements recommends is to get a
word count on your first draft and try to cut it down by 33 to 50%. Finally,
ask friends for help editing. Keeping asking whoever is toughest on you.

Good luck!

------
V-2
Practicing is not just about writing a lot and often.

Practice requires constantly going back to what you wrote, too.

My English isn't as good as I'd like it to be, but:

1\. I know it would be worse if I didn't review my writing :)

2\. I'm bold enough to claim that I write pretty well at least in my first
language.

On message boards I'm notorious for editing my posts, sometimes several times
in a row, reverting previous changes etc. :) It's a bit embarassing, since
this is obviously a neurotic trait. But peaceful minds don't strive for
excellence :)

Never be happy with what you just wrote. Keep trying to improve it.

------
gus_massa
I'm not a native English speaker. I usually type the comments in MS Word, so I
can correct most of the typos and grammar errors. Another trick is to reread
the comments twice before submitting.

------
redmattred
I would say practice makes perfect. If becoming a better writer is important
to you, try to build a regular practice where you write each day and build
some sort of feedback loop into this process to help you improve the quality.

There are plenty of pedantic people spending their time on forums who will
naturally correct you if you make an error in your writing.

Writing a blog entry once a week and asking a friend or two to review the
draft might be another way.

You're not doomed to anything if you take on a mindset where you believe that
you can and will improve.

------
mlafeldt
It is true that the only way to get better at writing is to sit down and
write. I write at least 250 words each day no matter what. I recently
published a blog post on that habit, which you might find helpful as well:

[http://mlafeldt.github.io/blog/write-every-
day/](http://mlafeldt.github.io/blog/write-every-day/)

The post also received a lot of comments here at HN:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8350005](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8350005)

------
pasbesoin
I am old enough that this was significantly more difficult in my time than it
appears to be, now. Namely, lots of exposure.

Access to videos, even non-boring audio, not to mention to native speakers,
was much more difficult and limited for the average language learner in the
U.S. at that time.

For one foreign language, limited access to pop music that I rather enjoyed
helped significantly. Listening to it repeatedly helped me absorb the sound of
the language.

For another, a very early and successful foray into video taped lessons that
had a running, dramatic and humorous story as a major component proved quite
effective. SO much better than those dreadful, "repeter" audio cassettes. In
addition to the language itself, the videos provided, without explicitly
describing it all, a lot of cultural context.

Speaking and writing did, of course, also help. All the passive, listening and
observing understanding does not fully form those neural pathways.

But when it did come to speaking and writing, I started off with a much better
idea of how the language actually sounds, what the day-to-day idioms and
colloquialisms are. I wasn't simply trying to translate my thoughts, word for
word, into the other language -- something that often ends up sounding rather
off and that, inadvertently, takes on different meanings from those intended.

When I arrived in one foreign city, acquaintances who eventually became
friends told me that I sounded "like and old book". Because in my literature
classes, that had been my primary exposure. With time in the "real",
contemporary world of that language, this changed.

So, don't overdue or rely on "memorization". That conscious level activity has
its limits. Take advantage of today's media-rich world to gain as much
exposure as you can. And beware of the contexts of that media; just as in your
native tongue, people speak differently in different contexts. Fortunately,
e.g. in video, it's often easy to get some idea of what context is being
portrayed.

Oh, and do read a lot, too. I have some exposure to a few languages orally,
where I'd have a hard time writing down a few words much less complete
sentences.

Nonetheless, you need the other exposure I describe to have a fuller sense of
the language and to "sound right".

------
bennesvig
Off the top of my head, here are 11 ways to improve your writing.

1\. Vary sentence length 2\. Vary sentence construction 3\. Use parallel
construction 4\. Put emphatic words at the end 5\. Read your writing out loud
6\. Avoid repeating uncommon words close together 7\. Write in the active
voice 8\. Write about what something/someone does instead of what they are 9\.
Appeal to the senses, mainly the visual 10\. Be specific 11\. Delete
unnecessary words

------
mdparker89
I've been looking into how to improve my writing as well. One of the things
that I've learned is that good writing is the result of good sentences.
Sentences, not words, are the basic building block. If you focus on writing
better sentences you will become a better writer.

I know this doesn't help with how to write better sentences but just having
this direction has helped me focus. Hopefully it helps you!

~~~
Eiriksmal
I would agree with this. The only way to become proficient in something is to
_do_ it. I've been typing into rectangular <textarea>s since 2002—plenty of
time to grow comfortable with the vagaries of textual communication.

How do you become better at communicating your internal ideas externally...
without the aid of non-verbal communication? By doing it! Jump into
discussions, type, type, type. Read what others are writing, see which
communicators you find powerful, observe which ones fall flat in their
attempts. Try to imitate the more power communicators. Are they using a
certain style of writing that you could leverage?

Learning more certainly helps—"oh, that's an em-dash? What's its function? How
can I use it to more accurately translate my thoughts into sentences others
read?" Then lock-in that new knowledge nugget by practicing. Work it into your
next post/comment/message to a friend.

My key takeaway would be: Just do it. Write like a fiend!

------
clairity
a lot of comments here suggested focusing on style (use a thesaurus, by the
way), and that's all well and good, but good writing flows from thoughtful
reflection. it's about digging deeper into the material you want to comment on
and trying to weave a narrative with threads of experience that are unique to
you. you don't need flowery language, really. you need interesting thoughts.

how do you get interesting thoughts? some people have suggested reading, and
that's a good way. but also try to have life experiences outside the norm.
spend time with people you don't feel entirely comfortable with. try to
understand their lives. go places that feel slightly dangerous. ask 'why?'
expose yourself to a diversity of ideas. study topics that really interest
you.

let these things inform your viewpoint. pull such perspectives from the far
reaches of your brain and mold them to fit the topic at hand. sometimes it
turns into an engaging comment, and other times, not so much. don't worry
about these latter cases.

and choose what you comment on based on how uniquely you can add to the
discussion.

------
yoha
May it be coding, writing or another skill, there is one thing that matters
most when learning and perfecting it:

* practice

* observe how others do

* practice

* practice even more

Obviously, you won't be good at first, but that's the whole point of learning,
isn't it?

So every time you encounter a defect in your skill, make a mental note for
next time. Don't try to make it _right_ the first time, just make it. That
way, you will get feedback, and know what the actual defects are.

------
nevergetenglish
Is a real gift to read all those wonderful responses, a language is also about
feelings and communication. Maybe one day I will be able to write on the spur
on the moment and those written words will modulate love, anger, passion or
regret. Maybe in one of those moments I could feel that this language is no
longer a wall, that I am not alone any more and that I communicate with
someone else soul.

~~~
marktangotango
Very nice!

------
stevenkovar
Surround yourself with beautiful language. It will find its way into your
lexicon and, more importantly, your thoughts.

Write for yourself frequently. Long form, poetry, small notes, one-liners, it
doesn't matter—just write.

Eventually you won't feel like an impostor and the voice of your writing is
your own. The people whose language you admire have practiced their writing
and oration a lot. They started the same way.

Just write.

------
geoffbrown2014
If you are a undisciplined writer like me, you will have to find the theme of
your post after writing it. In the goulash of your initial stream of writing,
look for a kernel or thought that clarifies your point. Use that kernel as a
logic driver to select words and organize your sentences in support of that
theme. You know you are have found the kernel when you start removing words.
;)

------
baby
Try to write more. I think I have the same struggle as you and I've seen
improvements when I started writing everyday. There is an application for
that: 750words.com (which only gives you a 30days trial but it's a good way to
start! I've made my own application like this (3pages.fr) it's free but it's
in french :))

------
rdtsc
Practice, practice, practice.

English is my third language, so I always make tons of mistakes and am trying
to improve. Learning to think and write better is kind of a secondary reason I
participate in HN discussions.

Maybe that's the key, write something you are passionate about (programming,
startups, literature) and in the process you'll notice you got better?

------
vood
In addition to all these very useful answers above I would like to recommend
the following approach:

1) Write an article 2) Do not hesitate to make any kinds of mistakes 3) Give
it to a proofreader/editor 4) Compare your version versus edited one 5) Learn
6) Repeat form #1

P.S. for proofreading i would recommend oDesk, 300Editors or Wordy.

------
sunseb
The key is not to compare yourself with others, but instead to see from how
far you have come and be proud that you will be even better in the future.

I'm swiss-french and I try to practise english every day - mainly through
reading and writing, as we don't speak english where I live.

------
1123581321
I'd suggest to look up a list of the "100 best English books" or something
like that, and also to read a lot of the best engineering/development books,
including those that are written about the developers themselves more than the
details of their work.

------
qodeninja
There are the people who make technology, and then there are those who write
about it. I've rarely seen both in one person, as each side requires a level
of focus and dedication that would do the other side an injustice.

HN in my perspective, is mostly a PR site for technologists trying to push
their brand/personality with some bigger agenda.

I've seen a lot of people develop their brand/persona on HN and blogs before
trying to push out some tech company. 3 such people come to mind.

To be fair, I'm probably no different, except that I dont post here (yet) --
just consume and opinionate.

So consider the context.

If you really want to be good at writing the best way is to practice. A blog
is a great way to get in the habit of writing.

I would also refer you to some well known books like the de facto standard for
"good" English composition used by PR's and news organizations: The Elements
of Style ([http://goo.gl/SPcAOF](http://goo.gl/SPcAOF) <== amazon link with my
referrer tag)

Like anything they key to becoming "good" is time, focus and dedication --
obviously.

In any case, consider the context of HN and what the motivating factor is for
people who do submit posts here -- they write well because they have an agenda
and are using language as a tool to advance their agenda -- me too!

(side note: I'm still trying to figure out what the motivating factor is for
Redditors though, if anyone knows, please let me know.)

(side note 2: I'm really surprised that in the book mentions, no one mentioned
Elements of Style - it really is a big deal. Ask any Literature/English
professor. I just re-ordered it myself for nostalgia sake and I'm always
catching myself trying to remember the rules from it)

------
JohnHaugeland
Most of my writing is learned from reading.

A lot of perceived quality is by subconscious shibboleth: they'll think better
of you if you don't make the slight errors other people make. Go consume
Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary.

------
AnthonBerg
Most of all just write a lot.

Read well-written copy, whether it is elaborate prose, wartime speeches, or
clean and fresh ad copy. Analyse it. Emulate it.

Write first, then edit. Don't do both at the same time.

Read your old stuff and find flaws in it.

Shorten text. Shorter is almost always better.

------
serve_yay
Read a lot, and write a lot! (You have to do the reading part to expose
yourself to lots of different people who write well, which over time will
distill into knowledge of how to write. But that part will only happen if you
write.)

------
dia80
"It usually takes me more than three weeks to prepare a good impromptu
speech."

\-- Mark Twain

~~~
dang
[http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/06/09/twain-
speech/](http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/06/09/twain-speech/)

------
grandalf
Keep it short. Nobody wants to read a book.

Structure the content visually and conceptually. Short paragraphs work well.

Don't hesitate to post your initial thoughts and then clean it up during the
period when you are allowed to edit the comment.

------
swombat
I actually wrote an article on the topic, funnily enough...

[http://swombat.com/2010/12/6/get-better-at-
writing](http://swombat.com/2010/12/6/get-better-at-writing)

------
fuligo
I don't understand why or how something that contains these paragraphs:

" _I find it not justice that "Tim Cook Speaks Up" is eating my cake. What if
I am only a heterosexual guy, a troll and my only goal is to get some karma
points.

I realize that the language topic is a pure one and that it should be
separated (sanned) from a egotists, only looking for karma points guy. But
what?, you guys are beautiful and constructive, sorry for not just being that
type._"

makes it to the front page of HN, getting so much empathy and support from the
community. Was the text edited after it got this outpuring of support, or are
we really okay with this? Why is it _still_ being upvoted? Why does nobody
even address this? Has HN been punked?

~~~
JoshTriplett
I don't think it contained those last two paragraphs when first posted.

~~~
fuligo
But for how long does that text stay editable? One hour? This thing is more
than 4 hours old, doesn't that mean it got the majority of its support after
the edit was made?

------
nevergetenglish
Edit: The last two paragraphs were added when the post was number 5 in HN in
an unsuccessful and evil attempt to reach the top.

------
ghuntley
re: " how people get to express their ideas in such a clear and persuasive
way"

[http://www.amazon.com/Pyramid-Principle-Logic-Writing-
Thinki...](http://www.amazon.com/Pyramid-Principle-Logic-Writing-
Thinking/dp/0273710516/)

Recommended reading, especially for anyone whom consults or writes proposals.

------
neduma
Practice, Improvise, Fake it till you make it.

------
pfortuny
Read Henry James. I repeat, read Henry James.

------
mbesto
Practice. Practice. Practice.

------
mindcrime
Somebody, I _think_ it was Stephen King, once said something like "the best
way to get better at writing is to write a lot, and read a lot". I seem to
recall this sentiment being expressed in King's book _On Writing_ , but I may
be mis-remembering. Anyway, it rings true with me. Read, write, read some
more, write some more, lather, rinse, repeat.

If you need something to help encourage you to write, consider participating
in NaNoWriMo (National Novel Writing Month)[1][2].

Also, there are TONS of resources available for people who are working on
getting better at writing. Just go down to any Barnes & Noble store and find
the section with the writing books, and you'll find shelves full of books on
"how to be a better writer". Some are aimed at fiction, some non-fiction, some
specifically for writers of memoirs, magazine articles, etc.

It's sort of cliched to say, but _The Elements of Style_ by Strunk and White
is excellent, as is _Eats, Shoots and Leaves_.

 _I have been trying to improve my English a little but not having anybody to
write to or any need to use English makes me believe that I will be stagnated
in a low level profile, and that I will never will achieve the level of
mastery and proficiency they show so well in their writing._

Maybe consider starting a blog in English, and just write about whatever
interests you. It doesn't even really matter if you get any readers/followers
or not, the important thing is just to write as much as you can.

All of this advice is predicated on the idea that you're more interested in
getting better at _written_ English. If you want to be a better public speaker
the best thing to do is, wait for it... do a lot of speaking!

One good way to get yourself some practice speaking is to join a group like
Toastmasters[3], if you have a chapter nearby. If not, there may be a similar
group, but you may have to dig a little. Another option would be to find any
local techie user-groups (Linux User's Group, Ruby Meetup, Java Meetup,
whatever it might be) and offer to present there. These groups often struggle
to find enough speakers to fill their calendars, and any volunteers of usually
(in my experience) warmly welcomed.

Edit: I just remembered, there is another book, which I found recommended here
on HN a while back, and just recently acquired, which I consider excellent.
It's called _The Pyramid Principle_ [4], by Barbara Minto. This book is less
about language, and more about structure and organization, in terms of how you
present your ideas. I recommend this one very highly.

[1]: [http://nanowrimo.org/](http://nanowrimo.org/)

[2]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Novel_Writing_Month](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Novel_Writing_Month)

[3]: [http://www.toastmasters.org/](http://www.toastmasters.org/)

[4]: [http://www.amazon.com/The-Pyramid-Principle-Writing-
Thinking...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Pyramid-Principle-Writing-
Thinking/dp/0273710516)

------
nohaimo
This sooooo feels like a troll, I wanna share it on my facebook page

------
graycat
The lessons for getting started are quite standard. First, you need three
books or, now, Web sites, one for each of a good English dictionary, a good
English grammar, and a good book on _rhetoric_. For a dictionary, sure,
something by, say, Webster's. For grammar, something used in senior English in
high school or freshman English in college. For rhetoric, sure, Strunk and
White, _The Elements of Style_. Not nearly new stuff. For more, _The Chicago
Manual of Style_ can provide clear answers to some tricky questions, good
answers not easy to find elsewhere.

Then you _iterate_ : (1) You write something, a postcard, an e-mail, a
birthday card, a blog post, a love letter, an _elevator pitch_ , a term paper,
etc. Hopefully you can get others to read what you wrote and get some feedback
or at least some reactions. Then with what you noticed yourself while writing
and from the feedback, you identify some issues or problems in your writing.
(2) You read, hopefully well written material. Here maybe the best is good
material from the STEM fields and good material from the world of literature.
In that reading, you try to see how that writing solved the problems you
noticed so far in your writing. And you try to learn more. Then you return to
(1) and iterate again.

Then for the iterations of (1) and (2), devote at least 10 years before you
expect a lot of improvement. Good writing skills are likely the most difficult
learning considered in education, and I say that is a devoted STEM student
with high contempt for _belle lettre_. As a college prof, I saw that the adult
evening students, while not very good as students, were much better at writing
than even the good students of usual college age -- the extra years of reading
and writing, in a deliberate effort to learn more or not, were the huge
difference. Net, the learning takes years -- call that decades.

For STEM writing, there are some special techniques. Maybe the best, pure form
of these techniques and, thus, the easiest to place to learn is in the best
quality pure math and mathematical physics. For pure math, sure, emphasize
Halmos, Rudin, Bourbaki, von Neumann, Breiman, Neveu, authors of college texts
on abstract algebra, e.g., Herstein, etc. There are lots of highly polished
freshman calculus texts, and can learn a lot about STEM field writing from
those examples. A good text on freshman college physics also has some really
good lessons to teach on STEM field writing. Maybe you want the math/physics
and maybe not, but there are good writing lessons there. For writing in
computer science, sure, like it or not, Knuth's, _The Art of Computer
Programming_. Knuth's a good writer on computing, e.g., just his _The TeXBook_
is some especially good STEM field writing.

For literature, one of the main goals, whether they say so or not, is _art_ as
in the common definition of _the communication, interpretation of human
experience, emotion_. To oversimplify, call such writing _belle lettre_.

With some irony, belle lettre commonly is really good communicating the
passion, pathos, poignancy, plight, and pain, and other such awful
alliteration, of the human condition but otherwise nearly useless at
communicating something effective to alleviate the pain, etc. Then the STEM
fields and its writing are less good at the emotional communications but now
in this the 21st century often just astoundingly good at getting really solid,
safe, effective solutions to the pains. Which you prefer is your choice!

Or, in simple terms, do you want to suffer with the pains or do something
about them? Yes, I know this remark is judgmental, provocative, potentially
pejorative, and other such awful alliteration. Here people can agree to
disagree, and YMMV.

I'm no good at writing, but the above is the best I know about learning how to
do it. And a lot that I'm saying is quite standard -- not nearly new, for more
awful alliteration.

Go for it. And, here on HN, show us what you're getting and what you've got!
When you've got lessons for other learners, show us those, too!

Good news: There are a lot of people who are plenty bright enough to write
really well but are nowhere nearly bright enough to have anything worth
saying! Lesson: Don't have to be very bright to write well! Or, if you are
bright enough to have something to say, then nearly necessarily you are more
than bright enough to be able to learn to say it well!

------
benihana
> _I got a little sad because perhaps I am doomed to never be such a great
> speaker._

There is no better way to doom yourself to something than to say you're doomed
to that fate. If you want to be a better speaker, practice. Some people pop
out of the womb with great oratory ability. Most people have to learn it
through hard work and practice and failure.

------
innguest
I learned English by debating online and I recommend this method to anyone. Go
on Reddit and start disagreeing with people. When they prove you wrong do some
research and refute their arguments. Rinse and repeat. You will learn English
and be informed and have fun at the same time.

------
GFK_of_xmaspast
Practice.

