
Whatever happened to Japanese laptops? - atjamielittle
http://jamielittle.org/2016/11/06/japan-laptops.html
======
Spooky23
The japanese companies were pretty amazing in the commercial space.

My employer had a few Fujitsu ultra portables in the circa 2007 timeframe. One
of our internal customers mentioned to a salesguy that they needed a
particular port in a particular location on the laptop, not expecting
anything. Two weeks later, they Fedexed a loaner/prototype with the port.

Really an amazing experience. We were buying 5-6 figure quantities of Dells
and HP, and they could barely handle trivial requests re packaging, etc.

~~~
notoothpaste
I wonder what their manufacturing processes are like, such that they could
accommodate this kind of flexibility.

~~~
yaakov34
In most manufacturing, you have a prototype hall or floor where you have
somewhat more general purpose/flexible machines with a lot of manual
intervention to make small quantities of prototypes, and factories with
automated machines set up to make the exact parts you need for your full
production.

This was always my experience in electronics - you, as the development
engineer, set up small-scale production (going from prototypes to EV or
engineering validation articles, which are basically the final product
produced by these manual/slow methods), and then manufacturing engineers work
with you to transfer your processes to an automated assembly line making who
knows how many units a minute.

It's not unusual to produce a special prototype in the small/experimental
floor; I mean, Apple probably goes through hundreds (or whatever) of
prototypes and test articles before releasing their next phone, and they are
certainly not stopping their million-per-day manufacturing plants to make
them. However, it does show impressive commitment to the customer on the part
of Fujitsu.

Also, electronics is more cyclical than cars (3-year-old model may be
completely different and useless compared to the current one), so it is common
to produce everything in batches rather than "the Toyota way" with just-in-
time. In other words, if a laptop model is sold for 2 years, the whole run may
have been made in 6 months, and then you have that manufacturing equipment
sitting idle while the next prototype is worked on, so you may have equipment
and engineers to spare. Only a few of the highest-volume factories (e.g. Apple
again, I assume) run at full capacity all the time.

------
benzesandbetter
In the early 2000's Japan was way ahead in the Sub-notebook market. As
subnotebooks and tablets have come into popularity and wide availability
worldwide, this arbitrage opportunity has narrowed significantly.

In 2007, I picked up a Panasonic R6 (10" LetsNote/toughbook). It was a great
little machine, and I ran both Windows and Debian on it. The keyboard was a
bit cramped, and the circular trackpad was pretty lame, but overall I loved
the machine. Everywhere I went people would notice it and ask about it. After
about 14 months, the logic board failed, and I discovered that as grey-market
import, there was no warranty. This was a hard lesson, as I had paid almost
$2k USD for the machine. Fortunately, I was back in the states when it
happened, so I wasn't stranded abroad without a working laptop.

Earlier this year, I was in Japan and picked up a Japanese chromebook 10" for
under $200. The keyboard is both english and Japanese which makes it a bit of
a conversation starter. I installed Debian on it via Crouton (alongside
ChromeOS). When I travel, I usually bring both my MacBook Air, and the
Chromebook, and particularly in the developing world, I leave my MBA back in
my hotel or apartment and bring my Chromebook with me when I'm out and about
in the city.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
> The keyboard is both english and Japanese

So, Japanese, then? Or does it have English labels on the modifier keys?

~~~
jpatokal
This usually implies a QWERTY keyboard with Japanese kana printed on the keys
and a way to switch modes:

[https://encrypted-
tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSH1YLn...](https://encrypted-
tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSH1YLn0FIXihr_tZjuhtsGHP2sQl9GeaavUOTT-
WaFVGjn3oaFZpisVRvxtQ)

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Oh I see, it's US QWERTY with labelled kana, as opposed to the Japanese
layout, which adds some extra keys specific to Japanese (mostly for IME use).

------
chemmail
Japan is really behind in PC/Laptop. I was just there last week and the big PC
and electronic stores only stock up to Geforce. Asus also has a big presence
there now, but the prices are a lot more than US pricing for the same stuff.
Not much innovation in the computer space. Home eletronics and appliances are
amazing though. Their high end electrolux style vacuum stick cleaners easily
clear $800 USD and are really awesome. The rice cookers can hit $600-$800 and
can make the perfect rice you normally only get in Japan. The mcirowaves have
built in toast oven in one unit, and it works amazingly well. Coming home, its
kinda sad some of the convinces we dont have like the toilets, bathroom,
kitchen, and even video doorbells (out current "smart" stuff are still
rubbish).

~~~
themodelplumber
> The mcirowaves have built in toast oven in one unit, and it works amazingly
> well

I had one in my apartment outside Nagoya in 1996. Still can't believe I have
never seen one in the states. I wonder if they just can't justify the
potential marketing friction.

~~~
imglorp
It's the same reason we still have 2 piece washer/dryers: so they can sell two
appliances instead of one. Until our market demands a combo mike/toast, we
won't have one.

~~~
randallsquared
Maybe they're much better now, but 15 years ago, I used a machine that washed
and dried in the same drum, and it was pretty bad at both. A full cycle for
one load on minimum settings took an hour and a half or two hours, and the
load was tiny in comparison to any other washer or dryer I've ever used. Even
if it had taken slightly less time than separate units, and even if the load
size had been realistic, I would have had to use two of them to get the usual
throughput I'm used to, where I can do a week of laundry in about 5 hours (two
people's clothes, bath and kitchen, bedding). If I had to use that machine
currently, it would be running for a few hours every day.

------
chx
I had a Panasonic CF-Y5. As one review had it: "The exterior design of the
machine's casing is reminiscent of a Sherman tank cross-bred with a 1970s
sports saloon, while the lid opens with the grace of a bank vault door."

It was incredibly lightweight (1.53kg at 14" with an optical drive!) and built
like, well, a Sherman tank. It wasn't only the casing reminiscing it. In a
weird little apartment overcrowded by all startup coders attending a
conference someone accidentally kicked it off the table and yet it was
completely OK.

I could only afford it because the CF-Y7 just got out and for a while I
couldn't afford them and then the B10 was no longer so incredibly tough
(although the current models do mention a drop test and a pressurized test).
Anyways, I am back to ThinkPads ever since. The keyboard is much better but
the weight is worse. I am currently using a T420s upgraded with an 1080p
screen and waiting for the Retro to happen. Our last hope.

------
mc32
One thing likely contributed to their downfall was US manufactures moved
operations overseas and many Japanese manufacturers kept production in Japan
making them expensive to the Us market --that and Apple and others catching up
in terms of "sleekness" and aesthetics. People would buy Vaios despite poor
hardware because they were thin and looked cool.

~~~
coldtea
> _that and Apple and others catching up in terms of "sleekness" and
> aesthetics._

Wasn't Apple always ahead of the Japanese laptops in terms of sleekness and
aesthetics?

~~~
cstejerean
No, not always. The Sony Vaio was attractive enough back in its day that Steve
Jobs offered Sony to run Mac OS on them (which they declined).

~~~
dopeboy
Had to look this up because I had no clue.

> Most of Sony's executives spends their winter vacation in Hawaii and play
> golf after celebrating new year. In one of those new year golf competitions
> back in 2001, " Steve Jobs and another Apple executive were waiting for us
> at the end of golf course holding VAIO running Mac OS" recalls
> Ando.[President of Sony at the time]

> Ando liked Apple. He always felt Mac and VAIO were so close in philosophy.
> He especially admired the original iMac introduced in 1998. But the timing
> was bad for Sony, it is just about the time, Sony's VAIO gained popularity
> and it is just about the time that VAIO team had finished optimizing both
> VAIO's hardware and software specifically for Windows platform. Because of
> this, most of the VAIO team opposed asking 'if it is worth it.' And that was
> the end of story for this Mac-compatible VAIO.

[http://nobi.com/en/Steve%20Jobs%20and%20Japan/entry-1212.htm...](http://nobi.com/en/Steve%20Jobs%20and%20Japan/entry-1212.html)

~~~
huxley
A couple of things about these anecdotes to give some context:

Steve Jobs used a Thinkpad (a 560E I believe) running OPENSTEP for quite a
long time after taking over Apple, because of his objections to using what he
considered to be the primitive MacOS 8/9 OS. So Jobs had no problems with
using non-Apple hardware.

The Titanium Powerbook and the iBook G3 Snow were already in the production
pipeline when Steve Jobs met with the President of Sony, so aesthetics
probably weren't the reason for trying to partner with Sony, perhaps Jobs may
have already concerned about the PowerPC Alliance's ability to produce mobile
processors and wanted an x86 partner to help pivot Apple away.

When Sony's president was shown a Vaio running "MacOS" what it was running was
the preliminary build of Cheetah, MacOS X 10.0[1] without either the Blue Box
(the classic Mac emulator) [2] or Rosetta [3] the "dynamic binary translator"
(which didn't come out until 2006).

Cheetah was pretty exciting to us NeXT junkies but if it was running on x86,
then it was quite limited in the amount of "Mac" software available for it,
most everything that didn't start on OPENSTEP would have needed a lot of work
to be recompiled and a lot of what would eventually be ported to Carbon would
never have made the transition.

So it's understandable that the VAIO team wondered if it was worth it, since
there was still a lot of uncertainty about Apple's ability to pull off the
transition to Mac OS X.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_10.0](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_10.0)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_macOS_components#Class...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_macOS_components#Classic)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_\(software\))

------
bpicolo
I had a Vaio Z once (This was ~2010, probably the first Vaio Z series).
Performance was good in the 11" package. But... the hinge was terrible, and I
snapped it with a light drop. Agonizing 1.5 month repair sendout. $300 bill.
Same day it came back, broke the hinge in the same place.

Never bought another Vaio.

And this is why I just buy Macs now. Repair is easy - a couple hours at the
Apple store. And the things are built well. They can take a bit of a beating,
which you need in a computer you're moving around, have in a backpack that'll
inevitably be tossed around a bit, etc etc.

~~~
fiatpandas
Using a 13" 2013 Vaio Z right now. It's a really great machine: 2x SSDs in
RAID0, HDMI + VGA, 2x USB 3, SD reader, ethernet port with an interesting
hatch mechanism to support its very thin form factor, 1080p, good thermal
design.

The product design is quite nice as well, which was an important factor for
me. When researching the model before purchasing, I found a YT video with one
of Sony's industrial designers disassembling the entire laptop, describing all
the components and a few of the design decisions, to a tech reporter. There
was definitely a level of design consideration and technology craft that
reminded me a lot of Apple, albeit not as sophisticated with material science.
But it was the nicest 13" PC laptop at the time.

That said, there are issues with it: small key travel, flexible plastic body,
bendy screen, out-of-box Sony bloatware (which I formatted away), lack of
dedicated graphics, and it has absolutely terrible speakers.

~~~
nsomaru
I have the same model (SVZ13), I'm sure. Is yours carbon fibre? It's super
fast and hasn't slowed down with a little maintenance. I'm sure it will go for
a few more years with care. The docking station external graphics are useless
though (only marginally better than the onboard intel HD) That said...

Limitations I'm coming up against right now:

1) Cannot upgrade from 8GB RAM which is soldered to the board. I want to run
more VM's!

2)I want two bigger SSD's to replace the current 2x128GB scenario. Once again,
these are soldered to the board.

3)My sim tray broke and if I remove it it will definitely not be usable any
more.

4) would love to install linux on it but not sure what the RAID0 story is
there with this machine.

There might be a way to do it, I just need a guide to parts etc (for ssd and
hdd).

~~~
fiatpandas
No, I didn't get the carbon fiber version (nor the dock, which I'm glad I
didn't based on peoples negative reviews of the video card).

I've been surprised at how much it has held up its speed, even with upgrading
to Windows 10. I can see myself using it for at least 1.5–2 more years.

The on-board RAM and SSDs are unfortunate. I experience memory limit issues
occasionally, especially with heavy Adobe usage.

I believe linux will support the RAID configuration (seeing it as one drive).
Good way of checking is to boot Ubuntu on a thumb drive.

------
carsongross
I spent a lot of time on [http://www.dynamism.com/](http://www.dynamism.com/)
looking at the ultralight computers they had in Japan. Almost pulled the
trigger a few times, they had awesome stuff.

The OQO was from that era too.

Good times.

~~~
tomcam
I spent thousands with them on teeny teeny computers, including the OQO. Worth
it!

------
bikitan
I think Japan is going to be one of the first markets to see laptop sales dry
up almost completely. Most people are fine with their iPhones. Where I work,
all developers use macbooks and everyone else uses a thinkpad. A lot of other
laptop models, like a lot of tech in Japan, is targeted at the Japanese market
only. Dynabooks are the budget windows machine of choice at the moment, it
seems. Although most young people choose Apple whenever possible anyway.

~~~
b2600
Really not trying to start an OS war but for the sake of accuracy Android is
the dominant mobile OS in Japan, not iPhone.

~~~
ralfd
This is from last year, so could have changed, but Q4 2015 web traffic was 66%
iOS vs 34% Android in Japan:

[https://deviceatlas.com/blog/android-vs-ios-market-
share-201...](https://deviceatlas.com/blog/android-vs-ios-market-share-2015)

~~~
sandworm101
If you are selling phones, Traffic /= market share. There is good reason to
believe that iPhone users use more traffic. They are the premium phone and
their users spend more. Similarly, app installs are also not market share for
the same reason.

There is even an argument that handset sales isn't market share, that the only
real measure is to survey some people to see exactly what phones they own and
use. That's the only way to include old phones that aren't used for much other
than making calls.

~~~
wastedhours
Would traffic not be a good indicator of the parent's argument about that the
iPhone is a replacement for a laptop? Based on the assumption most computer
usage is internet-dependent now (a stretch, but not completely illogical),
then a user with an Android device not connecting to the internet would
probably need another device to do so?

------
Ezhik
What's the laptop market like in Japan anyway? I don't really know a lot about
it, but it's always interesting to see these random Panasonic or Fujitsu
laptops not sold here, or those rare Japan-exclusive experimental ThinkPads.

~~~
mikekchar
As others have said, Apple has a very strong presence in Japan. If I go to an
electronics store, usually half the models on display are Apple. Panasonic and
Fujitsu pretty much rule the desktop with bizarre television/computer fusions.
Imagine a TV about the thickness of one of the old plasma TVs. It usually has
a stand, but I think you can also wall mount it. You can watch and record TV
on them, so they are basically consumer devices.

For laptops, the biggest brand (other than apple) is probably Asus (based on
retail floor space ;-) ). Sony, Panasonic, Fujitsu and Toshiba pretty much
share the rest. Toshiba is apparently exiting the market soon, though. From my
perspective, it seems that the market is split between very high end, large
format, desktop-replacement machines and tiny machines. There is not very much
in the middle. I live in the countryside, though. It is very possible I don't
see the interesting models where I live.

When I worked at a high school, all of the machines were actually Dell. It
surprised me greatly.

One thing that most people don't realise is that Japanese electronics are
expensive compared to the rest of the world. If you have high end purchases
(like a computer), you can fly to Korea and the money you save will pay for
the flight, easily. Especially with the insanely high yen, American machines
are also a pretty good deal.

I like to support the local economy, but when Toshiba exits, I might be stuck
finding the kind of machine I like to use.

~~~
janneklouman
I'd like to add NEC to your list (surprised no one is mentioning them). They
completely dominated the Japanese PC market during the 80's and 90's, and even
though the've been declining heavily since, it's still a strong brand in Japan
holding about a fifth of the market share.

~~~
mikekchar
That's really interesting. You are right. As far as I remember, though, I've
never seen one in a shop. I'm going to go to the electronics store today, so
I'll have a peek for them. I know that they sell routers and and things (and
in fact I will probably buy one of their routers today). Hmmm... Definitely
something to consider.

Edit: I take it back. Should have did some poking around before I posted. NEC
sells the Lavie model in Japan, which I have definitely seen. Looks like they
are filling in that middle tier that I like as well. I wonder how well it
supports Linux...

~~~
janneklouman
Funny you mention it - I actually have a LaVie (PC-LL750TSB
[http://kakaku.com/item/K0000704707/](http://kakaku.com/item/K0000704707/))
that I purchased late 2015. I appreciate the robust feeling and the touch
screen. Initially I thought the touch screen was just gimmicky, but actually
started using it a lot (perhaps due to the touch pad not being sensitive
enough for my taste). Also the four USB ports is something I miss on my
MacBook Pro. The Intel HD Graphics 4600 handles multiple displays and 1080p
video fine, but is not great for games.

------
Tepix
I bought a Toshiba Libretto L1 back in 2001 via the Internet (using
translation services) and had it shipped to Germany. It was a fantastic form
factor: A super wide 10" 1280x600 display (143dpi) which was so wide that it
left enough room for a decent keyboard. The CPU was a Transmeta Crusoe 600Mhz
which was, unfortunately, the bottleneck of the system.

One other highlight I remember about this machine: Despite not having any
international warranty that I was aware of, when the machine developed a
problem, I called Toshiba Europe and they picked it up and send it back
repaired a week later for free.

I was in Japan this summer and also had a look at the notebooks on sale there
but nothing really caught my attention. With the arrival of Netbooks and later
the Macbook Air 11", small notebooks are no longer hard to get in Europe.

~~~
amiga-workbench
I've got a few Libretto's kicking around, they are fantastic machines, full
pentium class UMPC's

I've also got a GPRS modem for my 100CT and it makes a nice portable IRC
machine.

[http://i.imgur.com/IUp4U7p.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/IUp4U7p.jpg)

[http://i.imgur.com/SuMjceM.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/SuMjceM.jpg)

~~~
pjc50
I still have my Libretto 30, which was right on the bottom edge of usable
performance with its 486-class processor and 8MB RAM. I remember being able to
play MP3s - but only with the Fraunhofer codec, not WinAMP, and I eventually
lost the PCMCIA sound card. It also ran Opera quite nicely. Eventually I
installed Redhat.

Still the best "touchpoint" interface I've ever used, since you worked it with
your thumb rather than an extended index finger. And the keyboard is just
_adorable_. The whole thing fit in a pocket if you had very large pockets.

------
dep_b
I bought a Sony VAIO MultiFlip 13A for my wife because she loves Sony's design
and she wanted a touchscreen, so we bought the basic model with an SSD.

a) of a 128GB SSD, only 90GB was left after Sony took wat they thought was
necessary

b) the fan was incredibly noisy, it would crash randomly and would eventually
die and take the notebook with it

c) when put in a less performant mode, it's really less performant and still
gets really hot

d) the touch screen freaks out and other issues once it gets hot

e) it still ran Windows

That's what happened to Japanese laptops in my personal experience. Now I
could eventually fix a) and b), e) was still required for Adobe software and
it's still a freaking hot slow laptop that freaks out once in a while.

~~~
pwg
> a) of a 128GB SSD, only 90GB was left after Sony took wat they thought was
> necessary

> e) it still ran Windows

Your "e" item indicates that it was not Sony who took 90G of the 128G SSD, but
rather it was Microsoft who took 70% of the drive space.

Lay the blame where it belongs, on Microsoft, they created an OS that consumes
90G of disk space. Sony did not create mswin, Sony just installed it because
it is what most of their target market believes they want pre-installed.

~~~
kafkaesk
90 GB is what was left, not what was used. But even 38 GB seems a bit too much
for a fresh OS, I assume that includes a recovery partition or the good old
GiB/GB mix-up.

~~~
Dylan16807
> GiB/GB

That's only 7%

------
PebblesHD
I've always loved their[Japanese] ultraportables for as long as I can
remember. Probably their prime placement in the film and television I watched
growing up. I've ended up with quite a collection of them at this point,
ranging from the amazing little Vaio UX through the little Vaio P up to my 12"
let's note. It weighs nothing, has an i5 and tons of RAM, I'm amazed they
haven't taken over the US. Not to mention its tough as bricks. They certainly
have a quirky, unique charm to them.

------
bluedino
I thought this would be about the tiny models like the Toshiba Libretto

~~~
EdSharkey
My drinking buddy in the early 2000's carried his libretto around in big baggy
jeans pockets so he could pull it out and code on his game any time he was out
and about and had a free moment. I always thought that was so 1337.

~~~
Zarel
I used to code on the Voyage 200, which also fit in my coat pockets:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-92_series#Voyage_200](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-92_series#Voyage_200)

My fingers were small enough to touch type on those keys.

After I grew out of TI-BASIC, I always wanted something like that for computer
programming, too, but I never managed to find one.

A laptop in regular-laptop shape that was 6" or so would be ideal for me. I've
also been considering a phone/phablet with a keyboard case or keyboard cover,
but none seem to be touch-typable. :/

~~~
spqr0a1
How about the Pyra? Seems to be close to your ideal. [https://pyra-
handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/](https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/)

------
zumu
My current laptop is a toshiba, and I bought it in the US. I've had good luck
with the brand over the years.

~~~
mikekchar
I have a Japanese Toshiba KIRA V63 (only sold in Japan, for some stupid
reason). It's a great machine and quite cheap for it's specs. I bought it for
battery life (I can do a whole day of programming on a single charge in
Linux), but it has good performance as well. I've been very pleasantly
surprised at how well the Intel 5200U has performed. Also at only 1.2 kg, I
can easily stick it in my bag and carry it with me anywhere I go.

I've seen on the news that Toshiba plans to shut down its laptop division in
the near future. Some people have told me that it isn't 100% for sure, so I'm
hanging on to some hope. I've been looking at offerings of other Japanese
makers (I live in Japan) and there is nothing else comparable. I'm not sure
what I'll do when I need to replace this one. Toshiba has been my go to maker
for the last 10 years or so because virtually everything they make "just
works" on Linux.

~~~
quanticle
>Toshiba has been my go to maker for the last 10 years or so because virtually
everything they make "just works" on Linux.

This is honestly a pretty shocking statement for me, because Toshiba has long
been my go-to example for the worst-case scenario of installing Linux on
laptops. I have never once had a Toshiba laptop that "just worked" out of the
box with Linux. Whether it was power management, display drivers, or wifi,
there was always something that was broken out of the box and needed to be
fixed. Heck, I have a Toshiba A305 for which Linux still doesn't have proper
power management drivers, even though the laptop is about a decade old.

When people ask me about Linux on laptops, I say that they should go with
either Lenovos or (more lately) the new Dell XPS models. Never Sony, never
Toshiba. I've never heard of anyone having a good experience installing Linux
on laptops made by those two manufacturers.

~~~
pjmlp
Toshiba was my first laptop back in 1999.

One of the reasons I went with them was that besides being famous for making
good laptops, was that they had a dedicated Linux web site and forum for
supporting Linux on their laptops.

While most other OEMs couldn't care less.

~~~
pjmlp
Extra info as I cannot edit my comment any longer.

They still have it, here is the German version

[http://www.toshiba.de/generic/np-linux-
support/](http://www.toshiba.de/generic/np-linux-support/)

------
mark_l_watson
I bought a 11" Vaio in 1990 and loved it, but it only lasted about 18 months.
I just bought one of the small 12" MacBooks last Friday and it reminds me of
the Vaio experience, but I am concerned that it is not physically robust.

------
partycoder
Japan is more active around smartphones rather than laptops and desktops,
since you can use them on trains, the preferred way of transport. People spend
some considerable amount of time on trains.

Small spaces make desktops not a very good choice.

------
bdcravens
Your anchor tags are using curly quotes, so external links aren't working.

------
Aoyagi
I love Panasonic's feature-packed laptops. Too bad they aren't sold in Europe,
and with some strong components, too.

------
phmagic
The iPad happened. Most of the uses for the Japanese laptops can be covered by
the iPad.

------
herbst
If thats your site. Please check the mobile view.

------
kevin_thibedeau
> I have a strange attachment to Panasonic

I have a lifetime prohibition on any Panasonic products after experiencing the
most craptastic DVD recorder ever to grace this Earth. It crashes at random,
takes forever to boot, won't boot reliably with a disc in the drive, can't
play Audio CDs without locking up, responds to remote button presses with
multi-second lag, and gets the tuner channels out of sync with the OSD.
Basically a complete fuckup. Their "fix" in the successor model was to add a
reset button. Never again Panasonic.

