

Ask HN: Obsessive Asian Parents - buggy_code

This isn't meant as a rant. This is also meant to be on topic.<p>From personal experience (as someone raised in an Asian culture), it appears that there is a strong tendency to take a "stable" route in life (i.e. doctor / engineer / lawyer). In the case of CS majors, this maps to "work at google / yahoo / microsoft" ... or "go to grad school and get a PhD", with startups looked down upon.<p>If you are in this category, or know of people that are in this category ... how did you break out of this (and deal with the opinions of parents / culture you were raised in) to pursue your startups?
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catch23
My parents fit this category. I am an American born Chinese, my parents came
here to do their PhDs & postdoc, but attended college in China.

They are also very "conservative". My mom pushed my sister to attend MIT over
Princeton so that she would take the engineering route instead of something
like liberal arts (even though she's fond of writing). I was pushed in that
same direction as well... you could say we are a family of engineers (except
for my mom who is a professor). After my sister graduated with a degree in
material science, she now wants to become a writer or do something as far away
from science as possible... much to the chagrin of my mom. (her marks in
material science were all stellar so the decision was not academic) She's
still doing her PhD at MIT but has been actively applying for non-science jobs
for the past 12 months or so. She's totally an extrovert, I just couldn't see
her becoming a professor anyway.

The first time I had to deal with "breaking out" of the mold was when I told
my parents I was leaving Atlanta to live in the Bay Area without first landing
a job. They were pretty mad and the argument left with my mom in tears. Even
though I was pretty frugal and saved enough from my first job to live 8-12
months without a job, they still wanted assurance of stability.

I succumbed to their plea and did a little job hunting. I picked the employer
that would pay for my entire move just to please my parents. I quit the job 4
months later. (they even let me keep my big signing bonus) When my parents
found out I quit, they flew out to San Francisco just to yell at me, the
argument ended in tears yet again (I think my mom is a little too emotional).
But I was steadfast, I knew I was capable and I could always pick up random
contracting jobs if necessary.

This is almost my 3rd year out in the Bay Area and I've contracted directly
with so many startup founders that if my startup ever fails, they would hire
me on the spot. The opportunities in the Valley are really amazing --
especially if you know your stuff and can demonstrate it to other startup
founders. I did some pro-bono work for one of the Linkedin cofounders and
later on he practically begged me to help him out on one of his projects.

My mom has learned to deal with my unstable cash flow and there are no more
arguments (thank god!). So for a typical Asian raised from a very conservative
family culture, it's very possible to break out of the mold as long as you
stay focused on the light at the end of the tunnel :-).

~~~
dkarl
This intrigues me, because your parents have worked in the US since before you
were born. I have always kind of assumed that Asian parents who seem obsessed
with stability don't understand the American system. They want their kids to
pursue things that would ensure personal stability in their home country (such
as marriage and a job), not understanding that things are different in the US.
In the US, a job doesn't offer much stability; stability comes from things
that get you a _new_ job (experience, credentials, and work contacts) after
your old job evaporates.

Obviously this doesn't apply to your parents, since they had long experience
with the American system. Maybe their fear was moral? Were they afraid that
your lack of concern at being "unemployed" meant you were becoming a lazy
American? I would be curious to know what form your arguments took and how
your parents were eventually reassured.

~~~
menloparkbum
_In the US, a job doesn't offer much stability;_

The jobs obsessive parents push their kids into are usually quite stable.
Doctors, teachers, lawyers, etc. Even software is relatively stable if you're
good and you're working at a Microsoft or Google.

~~~
dkarl
Teaching is stable, but doctors and lawyers only have stability through their
credentials. Clinics fail; firms contract; hospitals eliminate positions. I
don't know about the past, but these days law firms are quick to expand to
take advantage of new demand and new markets. Surely sometimes they make
mistakes. Microsoft and Google seem stable now, but who can predict the
future? Plenty of "stable" companies have laid people off, closed research
labs, and sold unprofitable pieces to new owners that had no intention of
keeping them running.

------
dennykmiu
I wish your title were "Obsessive Parents" or "Obsessive Immigrant Parents". I
am Asian. I am an immigrant. I am a parent. I am also a son with Asian parent.
But I was also a Professor at UCLA for nine years so I had met quite a few
students with Asian parents, Jewish parents, Iranian parents, any kind of
immigrant parents or just plain parents. My observation is that your
predicament is not unique. Irrespective of race and culture, every parent
tries to learn from their mistakes or try to compensate for their own
limitation. The world is changing too fast for all of us. Parents might act
like we know the answers, putting pressure and expectation on our kids. In
realty, we are scare of the future just like everyone else. This is true for
any parent, especially immigrant parents.

~~~
dkarl
Is the process of "leaving the nest" different for immigrant families, or
Asian families? My parents (who are not immigrants) stopped interfering by the
time I was 26 or 27. They're still happy to offer an opinion about everything
I do, but if I disagree with them, they don't make a big emotional deal about
trying to change my mind. I have read that in Asian families, parents expect
to retain their authority until they are elderly. Is this true? How does it
play out in the US, where children often live far away?

~~~
dennykmiu
It is not really a question of authority. I don't try to exert authority over
my kids and I certainly did not grow up feeling that my parents have exerted
control over me. On the other hand, Asian family (and perhaps true also with
other immigrant family) tend to have a tighter social network by comparison so
perhaps that could be mis-interpreted. The point of my original comment is
that it is really more an issue of communication. Parents have a hard time
understanding children as well. It is a two-way mirror.

------
patio11
Just between you and me, stability is a myth, its a freaking jungle out there,
and if you don't adapt to that reality you're tiger-food. However, that never
flew with my mom, either.

a) Business skills give me an excellent fall-back option to $SAFE_CHOICE if
the business thing doesn't work out early in my career. (Where early is "age
plus five years" and updated accordingly.)

b) I considered going to graduate school but I was worried that going into
debt for it wouldn't be financially prudent, so I decided to better myself by
hard work and independent study. You can appreciate the value of hard work and
independent study to avoid debt, right?

c) Microsoft et al would scarcely consider hiring someone who didn't have
experience doing this. After all, they'd be seen as someone who had
insufficient drive to do the work. I'm just looking out for my future.

(I'm not Asian, I'm just a Japanese salaryman.)

------
charlesju
I am an Asian American CS major from a good university. I am working full-time
with 3 other Asian American engineers on our first startup straight out of
college.

My parents are super liberal and I am truly thankful for the opportunity that
I was given growing up. They saved up enough for me to go to a private school,
but I chose to go to a public one instead. I used that difference to do my
first startup, and I am happy to say that we're 4 full-time employees at
ramen-profitability 2 months after graduation.

My advice is that doing a startup full-time is probably the hardest thing you
will do in your life. But if you love what you do, and I do, you will forget
about what your parents and peers are going to tell you to do and just do it.
You live for yourself, and I'm sure that when you make it big your parents
will accept your choices.

~~~
lyime
Couldn't agree more. Just talk to them, tell them this is exactly what you
want to do. They will understand, hopefully. If they don't then tell them that
you just want their support :)

------
dkarl
Maybe the key is convincing them that you know better? I knew one girl born in
South Korea whose father (still living in Korea) was totally hands-off, with
an attitude of, "Whoa, you understand the USA way better than I do; I'm out of
my depth here; do what you think is best." She said it was night and day
compared to how he had behaved when she first moved to the US, but she didn't
say what had changed his mind. However, I know she had survived some really
bad shit that her father was totally powerless to help her with, so maybe that
experience of helplessness convinced him, or maybe watching her handle it gave
him respect for her. Either way, not very helpful for you, I guess.

~~~
stcredzero
I found this post refreshing. The Asian parent tendency to declare themselves
practically omniscient to their kids is a big way that they shoot themselves
in the foot. Is your average American kid really going to buy the argument
that you should trust someone to know the right answer to everything, when
that someone has a hard time telling the difference between the ads and the TV
shows? (This probably dates me. I was born in the late 60s)

------
coffeemug
I have Jewish parents that value stability over risk. The pressure gets tough,
sometimes. Ultimately, this isn't even a question of starting a business, but
a question of a much deeper choice. Painters, musicians, writers, monks,
soldiers, priests, boxers, swimmers, and many other people from all walks of
life are forced to make this choice. Do you want to settle into a comfortable
rhythm of people that surround you (working 9-5, watching Lost DVDs, and doing
whatever comfy thing your neighbors are doing), or do you want to get out of
your comfort zone and try to make your dreams come true? There is nothing
wrong with settling for the traditional lifestyle, lots of people choose to do
that and live perfectly happy lives. But there are lots of other people that
choose not to live that way. The question is, what will make you truly happy?

If living in ticky-tacky houses really won't make you happy, you'll know it.
It will eat at you from the inside, and thinking about it will consume a huge
chunk of your conscious and subconscious life. At times, it'll drive you
crazy. It's a natural process, so let it be.

At some point you will see that if you choose to live a different life, to a
large extent it'll always be an uphill battle. Until you succeed, there will
always be people who will laugh, or give you dirty looks, or lecture you. If
you ever succeed and become rich (or famous, or whatever it is you're looking
to do), there will always be people who treat you like you have some sort of
skin disease - they'll feel uncomfortable around you. And if you never
succeed, there will always be people that will point and laugh.

Let the fire burn inside you. At some point, you'll know which side of you
will win. Either you'll say "the hell with all of them, let's go!", or you'll
settle for a more standard walk of life, and go back to watching Lost. Either
way is fine, but I doubt you can help this process with some sort of conscious
effort. The fact that you're trying, though, is a good sign. Just let the fire
keep burning and see what happens.

For me, Buddhism (and specifically Alan Watts) helped. "How To Get Rich" by
Felix Dennis helped (a great book with a terrible name - he's an artist, an
entrepreneur, and a philosopher, now a snake oil salesman). Thinking about
this day and night until I finally made a decision for myself helped.

Whatever you do, just don't be under the illusion that your parents will
change their mind any time soon (and even if they do, there will always be
other people that matter to you who won't). This is the burden every creative
person who was ever born on this planet has to carry. It's a perfectly natural
part of the creative process and of psychological development. Carl Jung
talked about it. Alan Watts talked about it. Konstantin Stanislavski talked
about it. Let this process be and see where it takes you.

[1] <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONEYGU_7EqU>

------
vonsydov
Most parents are wrong about their kids. Infact, they're compensating for
their own failures. Do whatever the hell you want to do. Mostly, you'll need
to try out different things.

It also depends on your personal inclinations. Are you a creative type ? Then
why would you want to be a lawyer or a doctor ... or any professional job.
When parents push you to go to MIT etc. just for the sake of it they're
motivated by the status it'll give them and the bragging rights. Not if you
screw the most important 4-5 years or your life.

When parents react, they're much more worried about how they'll be looked upon
by their friends depending upon what their kids are doing. They're less
worried about your well being. They also panic much faster -- especially if
you have other routes. e.g. your startup would need 2-3 years to stabilize, it
is entirely possible that your parents keep nagging you to leave that and go
to school -- or keep reminding you how you could've become a (fu __ing) lawyer
or a doctor. Asian parents will be extremely status conscious especially if
you take a dip to do a startup and its got nothing to do with your ability to
succeed.

Don't listen to your MOM !!! Women in general think things very different from
men and are more status conscious (remember the lipstick and the makeup). Men
are driven towards risk. In any case, if you ever want to do a startup you'll
need a pretty thick skin and tons of persistence.

The other thing--is that when parents push you too much, it results in lack of
self-acceptance. Not good. Will make you unhappy in the long run. Its much
easier to survive these days than it was 50 years back.

Finally, it is entirely up to you to decide what will ultimately define your
life. Will it be the same shit over and over again e.g lawyer, doctor,
whatever. Or it'll be something new, something that you created. What's the
fun in getting something every tenth person has got already. There's no
challenge in that. There is however lots of value in being a researcher at a
top university. I learnt the most ever at my first semester at MIT. But go to
these places cause you really want to learn from the best and surround
yourself with great people, not cause you want to gain status or bragging
rights from that. Actually as long as you have the right mindset, you can
probably learn a lot of stuff from opencourseware. If you have genuine
interest in doing research, PhD is great, by I didn't find a lot of people
over at MIT who were just mad passionate about the kind of work they were
doing. I think a lot of people are able to attend MIT cause they were very
conformist with their studies and undergrad research and eventually got lucky.

Oh, and get laid. Pls. More important than the phd.

------
hs
i'm an asian and i am not in your category

my parents were born in 1930s, due to wwii they didn't even finish high
school.

my father (even so my mom) was very poor, he worked for a while for relatives
but later for his own. he's good in business -- none of his children amasses
comparable wealth though; however, none takes (or forced to take) 'stable'
route (everyone works for self)

they are very hands-off on education. all but one receives bachelor degree
though. i picked the school i wanted to go and majored in engineering -- never
was forced.

my grades were always low. each year, pincipal always called my mom to discuss
it. grades were never important to our family anyway and she's happy that i
passed each :D

maybe it's just my parents. they survived one of the most tumultous era and
without schooling or external help managed to do extremely well

so perhaps they expect as much for the children _shrug_

\--- from reading others in this thread, i got the impression that [highly
academic] parents with stable income (linear growth, not exponential) tend to
be pushy

maybe because the formula worked for them. that formula would have steered my
parents into slavery (and very high chance that i now am plowing a field
instead of hacking lisp)

~~~
antiform
This was discussed in this thread, but this tends to be more of a trait of
immigrant parents rather than Asian parents. I grew up in places like New York
and California which was full of first-generation immigrants (mostly Asian and
Middle Eastern) who had come to the U.S. to kick ass and take names
academically and they were the hardest on their kids. However, if you meet
second-, third-, or fourth-generation Asian-Americans in places like Hawaii or
the Japanese or Cantonese-speaking parts of the Bay Area, they tend to fit the
profile you describe.

------
swombat
I'm not asian, but I have a number of asian friends. In fact, my first
cofounder and my current cofounder are both from Hong Kong.

I think the "stable" pressure is present in Europe too. It's not just an asian
thing. I'd argue that asians actually have it easier than europeans, because
at least asia (well, China in any case) has a strong tradition of commerce and
entrepreneurialism. In fact, I think that if it wasn't for my asian friends, I
probably would have stuck with the normal, thing, to get a steady, stable
career...

------
Shamiq
I started off as a pre-med with guaranteed admission to medical school through
Northwestern University's HPME.

I'm currently a Junior, majoring in Computer Science, Economics and a minor in
Business. Oh, and I'm also battling uphill to rebuild my resume/GPA.

I sat down with my parents and explained to them what I needed to do in order
to be personally satisfied, and explained what my best options would be. I was
surprised at how readily they accepted my words and allowed me to move.

Just gotta try and talk. Eventually they'll realize they can't control your
destiny in the long-run (beyond the habits they've given you and the influence
they've had on you).

Good luck.

------
timothychung
The main thing you need to do is to show them what startup is about. Tell them
why, how and what for startup. You must tell them the reason, how much you
love your ideas and the potential in your ideas.

It is also cool to compare startup to other choices. Remember to let them
understand the difference between working with passion and without it. Most
people from last generation would be happy with any job. You need to
understand them and let them know the world is different for you now.

I think most reasonable parents want their kids to be mature enough to make
decisions. So be responsible and let your action and lifestyle speak. :-)

------
jayp
I went to grad school first. Now, time for a startup. ;-)

Actually, my parents have been very supportive of whatever I want to do. I
think yours will be too -- just speak from your heart. Try to convince them
how you feel about things. Most parents only want what's good for their child.
However, often this leads to making/forcing decisions on the child -- but only
if they feel the child may be directionless. State your goals succinctly. Back
your reasoning vigorously. You may be pleasantly surprised.

~~~
siong1987
You are right. I am an international student in US. So, to work in a startup,
it is actually harder(visa, etc). I still remembered that (few days back) when
I told my dad that I am putting my school on hold for my startup, he supported
what I am going to do without any hesitation at all. So, now, I have nothing
to worry at all anymore. Try to speak out and convince them.

------
jlm382
I have an asian mom and a jewish dad, and they don't mind if I go the
"alternative" route and start a company. They don't mind if I never work for a
company. In fact, they encourage that I follow my entrepreneurial instincts.

But only as long as I get my college degree. Having a degree would be the one
thing that validates my (minimal) intelligence.

------
gaoshan
Good question. As a tangent to this question I'm a white parent with a Chinese
(as in from China, not American) wife who has her PhD. and is as hard working
and focused as you might imagine so we sort of split the middle with our kids
(her being the stricter one and me being the more relaxed one). We are still
pretty much in agreement on raising them, it's just that my yang balances out
her yin (heh), so to speak. Seems to work pretty well in that they do
extremely well in school but are also socially happy and well adjusted.

More to your question, we know quite a few Chinese couples (pretty much all of
the ones we know, in fact) who seem more like the parents you are describing.
I think it would be a tough situation to deal with, as a kid.

------
statictype
Well, I think its mixed.

I would think my parent(s) qualifies as having the traditional asian mind-set.
But the general consensus I find among them is that starting your own business
and being your own boss gives you more security\freedom than working at a big
company. However that varies greatly depending on what type of person you are.

In my family, those that did some kind of engineering or medicine are
generally thought of as being smart and capable of rising in any company but
not really the type to go out and start their own business. However those that
tended to do more business\arts related streams are encouraged to start
something on their own rather than get employed somewhere.

Or maybe my family just has weird stereotypes.

------
joshsharp
Related (though it was on here so you might've already seen it):
<http://en.chinaelections.org/NewsInfo.asp?NewsID=19911>

------
ashishk
just talk to them.

express to them what you want, how you plan to get it, and what you're
sacrificing (both short-term and long-term) for it.

you'd be shocked how supportive they might be.

~~~
catch23
You might also be shocked at how unsupportive they might be as well. At least
my parents didn't support my decision to leave a stable job... YMMV.

Sometimes I feel it's almost like the Indian girl trying to escape an arranged
marriage.

------
stcredzero
All parents, not just Asian ones, are in no position to make _rational_
decisions about their kids. The emotional bonds involved are just too strong.

You can't convince your parents of anything, ever. All you can do is love
them.

------
lacker
Just stop communicating with them.

------
mahmud
Look, if you can't sell your startup to your parents how can you expect to
sell it to others?

~~~
sketerpot
Your parents are seldom a representative sample of the population.

