

After working +1200 hours in oDesk - miquelcamps
http://malditointer.net/after-working-1200-hours-in-odesk/

======
europa
As a developer living in the US my experience with Odesk is that you cannot
make a living doing just Odesk. But you can still achieve good pay rate on
certain projects if you choose carefully. I used to charge , for example $600+
for a 3 hour job in the weekend. and if you are lucky you may end up building
relationship with your client and get other projects outside of Odsek.

If anybody looking to get into Odesk, this is my advice on how to get over the
chicken and egg problem(You are trying to build your work history while
clients looking for your work history).

Find projects that can be partially or even fully prototyped and send the live
link in the bidding. If the project is genuine most clients will bite. If they
don't , write off your effort as marketing expense!

Also never bid for a project if you think you cannot get a 5 star rating after
the delivery.

You can see my odesk profile below , all my ratings are 5 star. No surprise!

[https://www.odesk.com/users/~014c438dbb17ea9c46](https://www.odesk.com/users/~014c438dbb17ea9c46)

~~~
cheapsteak
> $123.00 HOURLY RATE

Wow. What is your usual rate outside of oDesk?

~~~
coolsunglasses
That's a pretty common software contracting rate ($90-120).

~~~
eru
And it's actually not too far away from full time employee rates.

~~~
kyzyl
Erm... depends where you are :-)

~~~
eru
Expat in Singapore. Programming for a bank.

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paulhauggis
I tried oDesk last year. There are so many people that are only willing to pay
<$5US/hour for a developer (and I even saw listings like "Non-negociable!!".

After getting through all of this, the clients left over that are even willing
to pay a decent wage expect way too much. Developer, designer, and product
manager for one fee.

I can't tell you how many potential clients I turned down because of this.

I gave this up and found a decent part-time contracting gig on craigslist.

Odesk should be renamed to: "unrealistic expectations"

~~~
crayonVision
My experience was a few years back. When I was starting, I realised that
getting clients with no records and rating in your profile was hard. I set to
build up my profile. After filling the descriptive data, one thing that makes
profiles to standout, are skill ratings. One can take online tests, and get
achievements. I took various tests, and with effort got some good ratings,
only to realise that some folks had managed to game the test, and got 99-100%
ratings on all the most important tests. The sadness started. I resigned to
never achieving competitive ratings with the cheaters. Time to move on to the
next thing.

After skill ratings, the other essential thing to stand out, is to have actual
work records with ratings. I deviced a plan: Get a few very short gigs, and
excel at them, to quickly fill my profile with some good ratings. After
reading hundreds of insane projects, including a kid that wanted a simcity
clone, to offer as a free download on his website, I found one that looked
good.

The guy wanted to connect an HTML form with a mysql db with a simple php
script. He had all the software installed. Even had a base php script. I
thought "wow so easy! I can make this in one or two hours as the worst
possible scenario!! :)". So I contacted the guy. To my incredible surprise,
the guy managed to sink me down in incredible ridiculous minutia discussion of
what I was going to do. I spent five days and answered around 80 emails,
discussing what I was going to do. I should have know better. But I kept
telling me, "well, let's answer this, and the guy will just let me do the
task."

Finally we agreed on doing the task. I made it in 3 hours, exactly according
to the guy instructions. With the curious o desk spyware constantly taking
screenshots of my desktop, and gauging my mouse movements and keypresses.
After ieach screenshot, it gives you a few seconds of chance to click a button
and delete it, before uploading and sending it to the client. I explained to
the client, that I was including basic php security measures, as a bonus. Of
which the guy had no clue. And his original form had nothing. After having the
form working, I cleaned a bit the ugly graphic design, sent the stuff by mail,
and went to sleep thinking "well, after all the pain, I think that the guy
will be impressed by the quality of the work, and dedication answering all of
his concerns." I was happy.

In the morning , I took a coffee, and went to the computer singing a tune.
"Well, let's see what the guy thinks". The agreed payment was 40$. I didn't
care about it, all I was thinking was on getting a good rating. To my
incredible surprise, the guy answered with an angry rant, trowing all kind of
threats and accusations, and claiming that I was trying to diddle him. The guy
threatened me of giving a zero rating, and continuing the angry rant on my
public profile, destroying my internet career forever. Unless we cancelled the
deal, and acted as if nothing ever happened. Even told me that I should thank
him, for not demanding an indemnization for his lost time. I was totally
dumbfounded.

After some thinking, I realized that all the minutious questioning previous to
the work, was a deliberated plan , to set a nest of argument traps, to later
act as If he was being robbed. I was like "jesuschrist, I can't believe this.
All of this tragedy just to avoid paying the pityful $40". I spent like two
days lying around wanting to do nothing. Not even think. Every time that I
looked at the PC, I felt like I wanted to vomit.

The cherry on the cake, was that a few months later, the guy contacted me
again, offering me "a more challenging and involving project". Jesus! I can't
believe the kind of people that there is out there. Finally after some time, I
recovered. Went back to o desk and managed some success. After some years of
working at other places, I can say that there are much better places to be.

~~~
mgkimsal
We just had a discussion about this at our freelancer meetup last night. We've
got a PM who's going to give a presentation on contracts and scoping work in
January, and we were chatting about problems freelancers face. A couple guys
in our group have been getting abused in much the same way you describe,
although f2f and in the same town, not remote via odesk. And... trying to get
people to go through a full 'statement of work' process before getting started
is just something that will fall flat with most projects under a certain
amount, however informal you try to make the process.

What we all agreed on is that there are some number of abusive people out
there, much like you described. No amount of process, formalizing agreements,
etc will save you from dealing with them. They have to be avoided, but you
have to know how to identify them first, and you have to be willing to walk
away from work, sometimes even in the middle of a projects. None of that is
easy for some people - especially younger folks.

And yet... by the same token, I get contacted from people who tell me "my last
guy just quit - just quit responding to emails - he flaked out - etc". I used
to think those people were just irresponsible idiots, and I was going to
provide great customer care, etc. I now realize there's 2 sides to the story,
and sometimes the original party 'flaked out' because the employer in question
quit paying or bounced checks, or is abusive, or a micromanager who's never
satisfied and wants an ebay clone for $25 and will call you at 1am because
they need help setting up their wife's email on her new iPhone.

~~~
hypertexthero
From Milton Glaser's "Ten Things I Have Learned"
[PDF]([http://www.miltonglaser.com/files/Essays-10things-8400.pdf](http://www.miltonglaser.com/files/Essays-10things-8400.pdf)):

> 3 SOME PEOPLE ARE TOXIC AVOID THEM. This is a subtext of number one. There
> was in the sixties a man named Fritz Perls who was a gestalt therapist.
> Gestalt therapy derives from art history, it proposes you must understand
> the 'whole' before you can understand the details. What you have to look at
> is the entire culture, the entire family and community and so on. Perls
> proposed that in all relationships people could be either toxic or
> nourishing towards one another. It is not necessarily true that the same
> person will be toxic or nourishing in every relationship, but the
> combination of any two people in a relationship produces toxic or nourishing
> consequences. And the important thing that I can tell you is that there is a
> test to determine whether someone is toxic or nourishing in your
> relationship with them. Here is the test: You have spent some time with this
> person, either you have a drink or go for dinner or you go to a ball game.
> It doesn't matter very much but at the end of that time you observe whether
> you are more energized or less energized. Whether you are tired or whether
> you are exhilarated. If you are more tired then you have been poisoned. If
> you have more energy you have been nourished. The test is almost infallible
> and I suggest that you use it for the rest of your life.

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jakobe
To me, the most revealing part of this post is how much of a difference the
profile picture made: adding a fake beard increased response rate threefold!

I am often told that I look very young; I am 27 and people think I'm 20. I've
never really thought much of it, but it might explain how disrespectful some
people (especially in academia) have been treating me. Maybe I should grow a
beard.

~~~
skorgu
Do it. Growing some modest facial hair has made a big difference in being
treated like an adult for me. For comparison I'm 30 and if I shave I get
carded at movie theaters.

~~~
mildtrepidation
32 here and carded for beer when I shave (at places that normally don't). I
guess I don't look quite Under 17 young any more, though, so congrats to you
on that. ;)

Now if only I could grow a decent beard...

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csomar
The hours logged in his graph (per my understanding) do not show the work
spent on searching and applying for jobs. And also tweaking your CV. There is
a lot of overhead in doing this.

And then you have to log hours for: accounting, banking, and government
papers. And then deduct banking and accountants fees. And then deduct your
hardware fees (since you are paying for them yourself). No need for an office
since you are can do it from home.

So is this really profitable or sustainable on the long term?

I live in a poor third-world country and I consider my break-up rate to be
around $60/hour. There can be only one of these scenarios if you work for a
lesser rate:

1\. You cut on some expenses like an accountant/medication that might result
in a disaster later.

2\. You over-work yourself and you work on week-ends/no vacation.

3\. You live with your parents, so you don't pay (or share) the bills.

~~~
atox
Could you share how you got the $60 number?

I recently relocated to a low income country and guestimated my needed hourly
rate to be around $20 when doing a 30 hour work week.

Biggest differences that I could think of is that I bought my house mortgage
free and that I have a partner that also makes $20 per hour.

~~~
csomar
I was talking about one worker (partner doesn't work), so I guess your
accumulated income is $40/hour. Still a bit far from my estimate.

1\. Do you need a car? It's a must here, otherwise your low income country is
more developed than the average third-world one.

2\. Do you actually do the accounting, marketing... yourself or are you full-
time employed. That skew things by a big margin.

3\. How is inflation. It's around 20% here. Not all third-worlds suffer from
high inflation, but many (most of them?) do.

~~~
atox
Thanks for the insight Omar. I moved to Hungary, so not really a third world
country. I've only been living here for ~3 months so my estimate might be of
by a bit.

1) I don't really need a car since public transport here is ok. However I do
own one. I cut my car costs to a minimum by changing from a sports car to a 10
year old Ford Focus.

2) I have an accountant that costs about 300 euros per month right now, is one
of the bigger costs that I have right now. Am gonna try do take on most
marketing tasks myself.

3) I never accounted for inflation so far. This might be something that I have
to look into a bit more.

~~~
csomar
Thanks for the feedback. Hungary might not be a top developed country, but
there is a huge divide between a developed and a chaotic country.

1- Public transport is really huge. A car is a very expensive thing
(especially a new one).

2- Car prices are two times higher than in developed countries. This is due to
importing restrictions. Old cars are crazy expensive. My car appreciate just
one week after I bought it by 8%.

3- This one is huge. In an unstable economy, it's not _abnormal_ to see a
sudden raise of 300% in some consumption good.

I do also assume/think that Hungary has an acceptable health care, too. Public
health care here is another NO.NO. here. (ps the country is Tunisia).

otherwise, what are rents there like? It'd cost around $1,000/month to rent
something respectable here.

~~~
atox
Yes, I would never describe Hungary as a chaotic country.

I see how all of those things would drastically alter your needed income,
especially the cost of a car and inflation.

I'm certainly not well informed on the cost of rent here, but I guess that
300-400€ per month should get you a more than decent place to live and work.

I checked the blog on your profile and seems like you're working on some cool
things and doing well for yourself, congrats on overcoming the odds like that.

------
ashamedtoadmit
I'm ashamed to admit this.

I worked for someone on RentACoder back in the day. I got paid to develop
software that is now used by over 20 million people. My cut for a week of
work? $200.

Never again... (and years later I'm still periodically asked by the owner of
the company if I'm interested in new projects for the same pay rate)

~~~
malditojavi
I see no reason to be ashamed. If you think your skills are going to provide
them a higher income, increase your rates and explain why you are doing it. I
have learnt a lot from Brennan Dunn's blog:
[http://brennandunn.com/](http://brennandunn.com/) I'm sure it will provide
you some good insights.

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chmars
Sadly, the linked site is a classic case of 'tab closed, didn't read':

[http://i.imgur.com/ZsZxfP3.png](http://i.imgur.com/ZsZxfP3.png)

I am of course referring to
[http://tabcloseddidntread.com/](http://tabcloseddidntread.com/).
[http://crapshaming.tumblr.com/](http://crapshaming.tumblr.com/) would fit
too.

~~~
dangrossman
Someone should make a tumblr of HN comments about not reading submissions.
It's not helpful; people are on this page to discuss the story, not why chmars
didn't read it.

~~~
chmars
I couldn't read it … there was no way for me to remove the pop-up layer
without being forward to another URL.

OK, technically, I could have gone all the way to access the original content.
But why should I reward a website that does apparently not want to be read?

~~~
malditojavi
Thanks for your comment. In fact, you are not the first one complaining about
that (another reader named it as 'user-hostile blog'), and I guess this is an
invaluable insight for improving
[http://manycontacts.com](http://manycontacts.com)

------
dethstar
The fact that his response rate got higher after he photoshopped a beard on
his face needs more explanation, was he applying to get those jobs more than
pre-beard? If he was applying about the same that's really interesting, and
makes me sad as a beardless guy.

~~~
sanswork
It doesn't sound like the beard so much as him appearing too young before and
the beard making him appear older.

So as long as you don't look like a teenager you shouldn't have problems.

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codeddesign
8 months worth of work for only $20k? This doesn't sound like a successful
experience - more like you were highly over worked and under paid. It probably
would have been more beneficial to have marketed your services for 80 hours
and be able to land a $20k project as well as a lasting client.

~~~
albedo
Agreed, and this is basically what we do for devs who want to do contract work
-- help find clients that pay well and don't suck.
([http://getlambda.com](http://getlambda.com))

~~~
shubhamjain
There is a difference between contextual self-promotion and irrelevant
spamming. What you are doing is the latter. Please limit the advertising, it
only hurts the PR with not much to gain.

~~~
albedo
Sorry about that. We'll cut back and be more relevant next time.

------
olaf
I have left odesk, because of their ridiculously unjust behaviour in a dispute
between a client and me. The "support" people there lack basic ethical
principles like "in case of a conflict hear both parties involved" and just
suspended my account. It's a place, where arbitrariness is an everyday
occurrence. I think, it is better to avoid a place, where people with such
weak ethics have power over one's business.

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infra178
How do you get people to pay you? The couple of times I've worked through
oDesk the person disappeared after I delivered.

~~~
goler
If you're working hourly jobs, payment is guaranteed by oDesk. That said,
fixed-price jobs usually pay out, too. Make sure to review the client's work
history and feedback which is shown at the bottom of every job post. Equally
important, make sure you understand your client's expectations before you do
the work - a good practice regardless of where you find clients.

Disclosure - I'm a former oDesk employee.

------
cpg
odesk is awful and should be put to rest peacefully.

at least for people hiring (i know first hand), and i read in this thread that
also people being hired get ripped off.

the team at odesk are basically sitting behind their desks but more so behind
their legal agreements, collecting their clean share without doing any work,
without applying common sense or due process.

do not use odesk. leave it for good! odesk deserves to die peacefully.

------
pedrosorio
Something like this for the graph?
[http://jsfiddle.net/6sdH6/3/](http://jsfiddle.net/6sdH6/3/)

Highcharts documentation is incomplete. In order to override the tooltip
configurations for a given series you need to define the tooltip object inside
it.

I also added a different axis for the hours, but this results in a Highcharts
bug where a time series point does not show a tooltip when there is a series
defined after that one with a higher y value.

~~~
malditojavi
Thanks Pedro! Sometimes I see Internet is full of people willing to help.
Thanks again.

------
kassner
How can you get a software developer jobs in oDesk with so many people from
India in there? Not against them, but they can do so low rates that even if I
work 80h/week I still can't get a decent income. I mean below 8 USD/h. Living
costs are so low in there?

~~~
agilebyte
One would hope that the living standard in India and elsewhere would improve
fast so that the wage disparity gets smaller and smaller.

------
loucal
I think at least twice in this article you wrote 'contractor' when you meant
to say 'client'. A contractor is the worker (you in this case) and the client
is the person hiring you.

~~~
emp_
Don't speak spanish but in portuguese it's kinda tricky because 'contratante'
means 'hirer', and 'contratado' means 'contractor'.

------
TallboyOne
What was your income after that much if I may ask? I always wondered how it
compared to just getting word of mouth referrals from freelancing.

~~~
sanswork
His profile shows $17.78/hr so probably around $20-25K. Depending on
variations in his rate.

~~~
malditojavi
My hourly salary has changed a lot since my first contracts. I started around
$ 9.00 USD/hour. I plan to extend the post and explain not how I have
increased my rates till my current rate, but also how I dealt with employers
not willing to pay more.

------
Houshalter
I wonder if you are searching for something about SEO, if you should just
always go with the first result.

------
ChristianMarks
Maybe I'll try a fake beard myself. A neckbeard even.

~~~
romanovcode
Don't forget to add a fedora aswell.

~~~
ChristianMarks
Good point!

