
Keyboardio Kickstarter Day 1278: A startling discovery - paulannesley
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/the-model-01-an-heirloom-grade-keyboard-for-seriou/posts/2369985
======
stevewillows
A few years ago I was going to start a line of thick notebooks, 5mm lines on
the right, and 5mm grid on the right. There were some other simple features
--- and if all went to plan it would have been nice.

After a few months of chatting with different manufacturers it became clear
that I had to be on-site to properly verify the materials used. Something as
simple as 'light grey linen' would yield completely unpredictable results from
the various agents.

The run I was going to do was fairly small -- about 3000 or so --- so it
didn't make sense for me to travel. Instead I shelved the project.

Regardless, for items with any sort of customization, I can only imagine that
its nightmare after nightmare as the client (me) aims to get the ideal
product, while the manufacturer tries to maximize profit (etc.)

Prior to this experience I never considered backing a Kickstarter project, but
now that I've gone through the most basic level, I'm not surprised with the
amount of projects that fail due to location and language barriers.

~~~
PascLeRasc
This is the general mantra of Bunnie Huang's book The Hardware Hacker. He goes
into lots of detail on why you need to be on-site, all the things you can
expect to go wrong/get misinterpreted, and red flags when shopping factories.
It's a really captivating read if you're interested in the minutiae of
hardware manufacturing.

------
kreetx
Quite a few negative comments in this thread. Shouldn't the attitude be: very
good job on the transparency front!! Everything else doesn't matter -- or
rather, it does (filling all tge orders, etc.), but the high morals I find
most interesting in this case.

~~~
hopfscotch
I wish they had called the police. Apparently they chose not to because the
penalties are severe? That's ridiculous, she deserves a hefty jail sentence.

~~~
conanthe
I wouldn't be surprised if the "owner" was on it together with the account
manager or that other dodgy things are going on that would have been
discovered by LE.

~~~
rlue
> The factory agreed in writing that we own all the tooling we've paid for and
> that they will make it available for us to move to another factory if we
> want to.

This, in concert with the fact that the factory has agreed to give it a second
shot, makes that scenario unlikely. For a factory owner in the business of
scamming people, it would be far easier just to back out than suddenly start
operating like a legitimate business once your scapegoat got busted.

~~~
conanthe
But is he really an owner?

------
milani
I have a similar experience manufacturing a kickstarter hardware in China.
Although we could ship with a few months of delay, we lost $9k.

Our story was a bit different. We first got to know about factories through a
hardware service provider and consultant firm. We decided to continue with two
well-known factories, one for molding and the other for pcb and assembly. At
some point, we paid $9k to start the final injection. Our project manager in
the molding factory made up a story that their email were hacked and someone
had intercepted the invoices and that we had paid to a wrong account! He knew
we could not follow up the story as we were under pressure and investigating
the issue could delay the production for at least a year.

We paid again, this time with a lot of double confirmations in each step. A
lot more problems occurred after that. The final quality of the product was
different from what we expected and from what we controlled in the factory. So
we did not continue with them.

These factories have no control over their staff. There should be multiple
points of contact to avoid these problems. Overall, hardware is hard and
manufacturing in china is even harder.

~~~
sargun
Are there any better choices for manufacturing stateside? From what I can
tell, not only is manufacturing stateside much more difficult and expensive,
often times factories don’t want small business.

~~~
lh7777
I've worked in product development consulting for over a decade, and I
wouldn't say stateside manufacturing is more difficult -- quite the opposite
really for many of the reasons mentioned in other comments. There are plenty
of small molding, machining, PCB, etc. shops across the country who would love
to work on these kinds of low-volume jobs.

Cost and time are the killer, though. To manufacture a simple electronic
product in the US could easily double the lead time compared to a Chinese
manufacturer and tooling costs might be 2 to 10x. Per-part cost really depends
on what it is you're making and how much hand assembly is required.

My industry is much more concerned with quality and predictability than cost,
so choosing US (or European) manufacturers hasn't been a hard choice. But for
consumer products, I'm not surprised that the math doesn't work out.

------
jimpudar
I backed Keyboardio in the initial round of funding, and now use the Model 01
every day. It is truly an incredible product!

I've been extremely impressed with Jesse and Kaia's transparency throughout
the whole process. I'm sure they will come out on top of this.

~~~
7e
The Model 01 improves upon its inspiration, the Esrille, but has wobbly, non-
standard switches and the keycaps feel cheap. The open source community built
up around the hardware is the real asset.

~~~
jongalloway2
I could not disagree more. I bought one after the Kickstarter, and the
hardware is very high quality.

~~~
jimpudar
Same here. If you think there may have been QC issues with your board, reach
out to Jesse and Kaia and they will take care of you.

Matias keyswitches are fantastic, I've never heard of anyone calling them
"non-standard" or "cheap". They are a recreation of the classic ALPS
keyswitches used in early Apple and IBM keyboards.

~~~
ScottBurson
Although I am overall happy with my Keyboardio, I must say the Matias
keyswitches have been a bit of a disappointment. They're okay, but don't feel
quite as nice, to me, as actual ALPS — I still have a working Kinesis
Evolution that I use frequently, so I can compare them directly — or as Cherry
switches. I wish they'd gone with Cherry.

~~~
jimpudar
Do you use the quiet ones, or the clicky ones?

I have one of each, but I generally prefer the quiet ones.

~~~
ScottBurson
I originally ordered two with the Quiet Click switches, but when my first one
arrived I wasn't that taken with them, so I asked Jesse to change my second
one to the Click switches. But those were even worse; some of the keys were
sticky. There was eventually an update from Keyboardio
([https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/the-
model-01...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/the-model-01-an-
heirloom-grade-keyboard-for-seriou/posts/2314407)) about the problems with the
Click switches, but before that came out, I decided to try converting the
Click keyboard to the Quiet Linear switches, as described by someone on the
forum. I do like the Quiet Linear better; I think they're almost as good as
anything else. However, I have also noticed that I dislike the Quiet Click
less than I originally did; I think they've loosened up a bit with use. (The
problem I had with them was that there was a bit of friction in the travel;
not enough to make the key stick, but enough to make them less pleasant to
type on.)

~~~
jimpudar
Do you have a link to the forum post about the Quiet Linear mod? I'd be
interested in checking that out.

I used the Matias Ergo Pro with the Quiet Click switches pretty much
exclusively before I got my Model 01, so I was already very used to that style
of switch when I first got the board.

~~~
ScottBurson
[https://community.keyboard.io/t/swapping-out-keyswitch-
mecha...](https://community.keyboard.io/t/swapping-out-keyswitch-
mechanisms/335)

------
shiftpgdn
Honestly this should be required reading for anyone who's motto is "just
source it from Alibaba."

There is a good reason most companies who choose to manufacture in China tend
to co-locate a person within the manufacturer's facility.

~~~
baybal2
> Honestly this should be required reading for anyone who's motto is "just
> source it from Alibaba."

It should be, but for as long as "just source it from Alibaba" remains a
recipe for quick buck that works 90% of times, the SV startuper types will
keep doing so, and such stories will keep repeating.

------
teraflop
My takeaway from this article: anyone who's planning to manufacture products
in China should have at least a few employees who are fluent in Chinese.

You can outsource many things, but you can't reliably outsource communication.

~~~
appleiigs
From their website: Keyboardio is Jesse and Kaia. Having a few employees who
speak Chinese would be more than their employee count.

------
starky
Most of these problems read as someone that didn't do their due diligence when
it came to auditing the factory and getting all the required information about
the business before engaging with them in business.

As soon as there were any issues with the payments and shipping, the owner of
the factory should have been involved, even if he doesn't speak English, a
translated email or WeChat message will be good enough to get the ball
rolling.

This is another example of why I would never support a hardware project on
Kickstarter, building stuff in China is hard, and it is nearly impossible to
know whether the company you are "pre-ordering" from has any experience in
Chinese manufacturing. They got lucky that it was all able to be sorted out,
but it shouldn't have ever gotten to this point.

~~~
patrickyeon
As I understand it, they were talking to someone they believed to be a
representative of the factory the whole time. When the story is laid out,
after the fact, it's easy to see that someone is being scammed. But the reason
scams work is that it's not so easy to see it from the inside. I wonder if you
would expect the same, that the owner of an American business personally
contact you and cut their own account manager out of the loop at the first
problem, if the factory weren't Chinese. Because that's not how it works,
there are account managers and explicit points of contact because there's
roughly always issues to be ironed out.

I backed this keyboard (received mine months ago!) and have met Jesse and
Kaia: they're good people trying to run an honest business. I'm glad I got to
back this hardware project on Kickstarter, I didn't "pre-order" anything but
rather took a risk on a product and on people who wouldn't have had a chance
otherwise.

~~~
starky
In China you have your main contact in sales, who this account manager was,
but they are relatively limited in what they can do for you other than liaise
between you and the other employees that may or may not speak English. Some of
the time, you end up stonewalled because of the limited responsibility they
have, as well as wanting to save face. In these cases, you often have to reach
out to the owner or the factory manager and have a conversation to "re-align
your expectations". It is amazing what a quick conversation on WeChat (which
automatically translates) with someone can do that even weeks of emailing
couldn't do.

These are some of the most important things I've learned dealing with (and
being burnt by) Chinese manufacturers. Always have multiple contacts at a
company that you maintain a relationship with, and never accept dealing
through an intermediary. If the intermediary is being cut in for introducing
you, so be it, but always have direct contacts at the factory (even in North
America).

Whether or not the people running the project are good people doing the best
they can is irrelevant. Based on my personal experiences with manufacturing
facilities (especially in Asia), and the low level of real experience behind
the vast majority of Kickstarters, I simply don't trust any project to
actually be successful.

~~~
baybal2
> Based on my personal experiences with manufacturing facilities (especially
> in Asia), and the low level of real experience behind the vast majority of
> Kickstarters, I simply don't trust any project to actually be successful.

That is in stark contrast to Chinese ran Kickstarter-like campaigns. Alibaba
backed kickstarter clone keeps stamping successful startups one after another,
and Chinese companies themselves are some of the best performers on the
original Kickstarter

~~~
starky
I've actually never looked into whether there are Kickstarter equivalents in
China. It wouldn't surprise me if they were much more successful. Just knowing
the business culture of the country makes you significantly more likely to
succeed. Also, there is really nowhere else on the planet quite like the
Shenzhen area when it comes to supporting new business.

------
megablast
> When Jesse told him a bit about what was going on, he revealed that a couple
> months back, our account manager had called him up to say that she was
> travelling internationally, had lost her wallet and needed him to loan her
> some money so that she could get a flight home. When Jesse asked if he’d
> paid, the wood supplier said that he told her that it was wildly
> inappropriate to be asking a suppliers for personal loans, and that she
> ought to ask a close friend or family member instead. He may be the only
> person in this whole story who didn’t get conned by our account manager.

Is this a cultural thing? Why were people in the factory lending her money? So
weird.

~~~
em-bee
she was a colleague and (at least indirectly) a superior.

it is a cultural thing to build more personal relationships in china, and
especially with superiors in your or other companies that can potentially help
you later.

------
stirlo
I find it amazing that they visited the factory multiple times and didn't
notice this. They never spoke to anyone/took a meeting with the owner who
hadn't been paid? They never noticed anything unusual in the way they were
treated as "broke/deadbeats"?

None of their drivers/guides/factory workers with high school english were
able to tell them something was wrong? They never offered to take the owner
out to lunch and discuss the issues?

They say day 1278 that's an over 3 year relationship, it boggles the mind they
were no naive and dependent on one person.

~~~
em-bee
> They never noticed anything unusual in the way they were treated as
> "broke/deadbeats"?

chinese treat customers and especially foreigners very politely. a chinese
person might have noticed something off, but without understanding chinese and
being very familiar with chinese culture, you or i would not be able to tell.

------
baybal2
I'm working in an engineering consultancy in Shenzhen, feel free to have a
mini-AMA with me.

------
lgleason
Here's a thought. Manufacture in the US. Given the losses that they are having
this would have saved a lot of hassle and it probably would have cost the same
for the size of runs that they are doing. Kinesis makes the Advantage in the
US because the volumes are not high enough to produce them overseas.

------
cellularmitosis
I’m working on a similar design!
[https://twitter.com/cellularmitosis/status/10745555509968117...](https://twitter.com/cellularmitosis/status/1074555550996811777?s=21)

~~~
jimpudar
Just a comment - I would be completely unable to use this board. I think the
angle of the two halves of your board is way too steep.

Looks very cool though!

------
sdan
Good lesson for all. Sad that you found out through first-hand experience.

------
philliphaydon
Does anyone here on HN have the keyboard? Did you go from a traditional
keyboard to the split one? How is it?

I've never seen this KS project but it looks interesting.

~~~
jongalloway2
I have one. I went from a Microsoft Sculpt Ergo keyboard to this one. I loved
the Sculpt, but like this better. I'm typing on it now. It feels really nice
to type on, the key press feels nice, and I'm happy that I can customize the
keyboard layout via simple Arduino programming.

Disclaimer: The keyboard layout is different, and it will take some time to
adjust. I think it's worth it, but be forewarned.

Also, hi Phillip! High five!

~~~
philliphaydon
A STALKER! Haha. High five!

I'm just using a Razor mechanical keyboard at the moment, keep the quiet one
at home and the noisy one at work to bug my co-workers.. Always worried about
going Ergo keyboard incase it's too difficult for me.

------
catacombs
What's the disadvantage of using an American factory? Too expensive?

~~~
Ntrails
If they'd take the business at all

~~~
catacombs
Why not? Isn't there an outcry for more American-made products? Aren't
factories closing down because jobs are being outsourced to places like China?
I know Keyboardio's products won't save hundreds of jobs, but they could try
looking at the U.S., a place where a language barrier is almost non-existent,
before trusting someone thousands of miles away.

I'm not a business expert and am probably oversimplifying this. Corrections or
a better explanation is welcome.

------
egypturnash
Holy crap.

------
potatofarmer45
If you're going to build a business around selling a hardware keyboard,
finding a middle-man account manager for your primary manufacturer is just
plain lazy.

The real takeaway is that these founders seemed happy to simply have an
account manager "who had influence within the company", "spoke english"... A
good scammer gives you what you want. If you are building hardware, you should
not want to be able to outsource such an important aspect of your business.

Take for example "we sent 20 defective units back so they could study and
improve xyz". It turned out they were in an unopened box. I don't get how they
didn't follow up to work on why they were defective, what is being done, and
the lessons learnt. Just saying "nobody speaks chinese" is just a plain lazy
out.

The founders seem genuinely nice and passionate, but they have to get their
heads out of their a __es. They really should NOT be looking for a middle
person because there is so much to learn by directly working with relevant
people in a factory. It 's a really bad sign for people who buy these
keyboards to know that the actual manufacturing part- where quality control is
done etc, is not a priority.

~~~
em-bee
they were not looking for a middleman. when they started the account manager
was an employee of the company, and they believed that to be true until they
found out different a short time ago.

------
thenewewb
This reads to me like Keyboardio is lying and blaming it on “business
overseas.”

~~~
cjbprime
If Keyboardio wanted to be dishonest, they could have just been one of the
many (majority?) Kickstarter projects which take money and find an excuse not
to return a product at the end. If you were more familiar with them, you'd
know that they aren't one of those projects: they have already produced and
delivered product, and my sense is that most backers are satisfied with the
result.

(For the record, I have no kind of relationship to Keyboardio.)

~~~
philliphaydon
I kick started a set of playing cards that I thought were pretty cool. When
the guy received the cards, he disconnected from everything, used the money to
pay for university and sold the cards on ebay. Never got the cards in the end
:( Some guys found him on facebook and informed his employer about the scam,
who just said it wasn't their problem and their employee 'seems honest'

~~~
richardhod
Can you tell this story in more detail, with links? It sounds interesting.

~~~
floatingatoll
(Or not, since “interesting” translates to “lynch mob” in this scenario on the
open Internet.)

------
appleiigs
That was a bit too detailed and rambling, so I skimmed it. Some missing info:
1) Will all the backers receive the products they paid for? 2) Losing $100K
seems large in comparison to their kickstarter revenue of $650K. Are new
customers safe to order?

I also don't get this logic: "On the other hand, Kaia pointed out to Jesse the
other night that this actually makes her more confident about our ability to
manufacture products in China in the future."

Nevertheless, running a small business is hard. I don't judge them too
harshly. When you are small potatoes, you also deal with other small potatoes
who could be incompetent (the factory owner is also blame here). You also
don't have the resources to micro-manage (ie. have someone in China all the
time).

~~~
jongalloway2
This is an update from a Kickstarter that ran in 2015. All the backers got
their rewards, and I ordered one after the Kickstarter was over and got one of
the highest quality products I've ever ordered.

The logic here is that, despite being lied to by a trusted account manager,
they shipped all of their promised products, at very high quality. They have
made continued software updates for years, much better than either
Kickstarters or other project's I've purchased:
[https://github.com/keyboardio/](https://github.com/keyboardio/)

If you follow their updates, they've made many trips to China, despite having
a newborn baby and running a new company.

~~~
glasser
The incomplete items that this update is about are an extra set of keycaps
that I honestly can't even find where on the Kickstarter we were promised
them. The main product successfully shipped long ago.

