
Getting rid of burnout permanently - kentnguyen
http://kentnguyen.com/personal/getting-rid-burnouts/
======
normloman
Um... Not work so hard?

I'm not a programmer, so I'm viewing the stuff on hacker news from outside the
bubble, so to speak. And from here, y'all look crazy. To the average person,
spending extra hours at work with no overtime pay is absurd, but you all
discuss it like it's no big deal.

Your industry needs a huge cultural overhaul. People must be trained not to
accept burnout as normal.

~~~
greggman
I program because I love it. It's my hobby. I quit my job a 14 months ago. 5
months ago I thought of an idea I wanted to pursue. I've been spending 8-12
hours a day 5-6 days a week on it since then.

I'm sorry you apparently picked a career you don't get real enjoyment from.
Those of us that picked something we love don't see doing it a lot as a
negative. We see it as just that, doing something we love.

~~~
oldmanjay
You're getting voted down by people who assume that your experience can't
possibly be real because it isn't their experience, but I feel the same as
you.

There are dozens of us!

~~~
MrRage
I submit, as argued in my other comment, that greggman is the one assuming
his/her experience should take priority.

If you are able to work years on end at 70 hours a week then more power to
you. But that doesn't mean other people who do burn out are to blame or
inferior b/c they didn't follow in greggman's footsteps or didn't choose "a
career you don't get real enjoyment from".

Moreover, seriously consider this: Is working 72 hours for just 5 months
enough to burn someone out? Especially if your young and responsibility free,
wouldn't it take a lot longer?

~~~
greggman
You're reading a lot into my reply. I'm replying to the parent to my comment
which was arguably judgemental in saying "y'all look crazy" and "spending
extra hours at work with no overtime pay is absurd" and "Your industry needs a
huge cultural overhaul"

My response is to that.

My response is even in line with the article this is linked about. That
message paraphrased is "If you like what you're doing you won't get burnt out.
If you're getting burnt out you're probably doing stuff you don't like doing."

I know plenty of other people in my camp. People with 2 or 3 kids that some
how manage to find time to code and learn new tech after work because they
just love it. As concrete examples, one of them is designing 3D software to
generate STL files for 3D parts so he can design toys for his kids. Another
just got both an Amazon Fire and has already created one tiny app on it and
now just got his Oculus Rift 2 and is playing with it. How he finds the time
with three kids I have no idea but he posts is progress regularly on his FB.

If you don't want to work a lot I have no issues with that. What I have issue
with is people calling me "..crazy" for doing something I enjoy. If you don't
enjoy it fine. Do something else. If I enjoy it let me enjoy it!

~~~
normloman
You're not crazy for doing what you love. You're crazy for thinking you can
cram in every single thing that you love, plus rest, eating, and excercise,
into one day, and not collapse at some point.

"How he finds the time with three kids I have no idea but he posts is progress
regularly on his FB."

Maybe he doesn't find the time.

------
onion2k
I agree with the majority of the article, but one thing leapt out - the first
question that the author suggests might 'help you to pinpoint your
resentment';

 _Why do you want to take a break, go on holiday? What are you really running
away from?_

Taking a break and going on holiday is not running away from things. Even if
you're working on something that you absolutely _love_ , with an amazing team
of people, doing something that will change the world - it's still a good idea
to take a break. Experiencing different cultures, seeing new things, getting
out of your comfort zone, and looking at things from a different perspective
is fantastically useful. It makes you see things differently. Going on holiday
is a good thing _in itself_ ; it isn't merely a cure for the bad things.

~~~
trjordan
I think the article exactly agrees with you.

If you think that going on holiday will make things easier at work, you're
probably wrong. Work is work, and taking a break from it doesn't make it not
work. More importantly, if you take a break for a bit, then come back to the
same grind, it's still going to burn you out.

If you are worried that you're burning out, and you find yourself trying to
solve it by taking more vacations, ask yourself, "Why do I want to take a
vacation?" You will probably find you want to get away from something (the
"wrong" reason), vs. trying something new or doing something different (the
"right" reason).

Like you said, take vacations that are a change of view (even if that view is
just the beach for a week), not to quit missing your Tuesday Night Dinner.

~~~
kentnguyen
Exactly what I meant. Thank you.

While you don't have to agree completely with me, and holiday are always nice.
But if you _need_ to take a holiday, then perhaps you do have something on
your mind that you want to get rid of.

------
noir_lord
Fantastic Article.

Three weeks ago I hit absolute rock bottom with exhaustion from working hard
for the last 2 years (I worked out I've been working 70-80 hour weeks since
Dev 2010 with 8 days off in 4 years).

I resolved to get my life sorted out, I cut back work hours drastically,
started riding my bike more and went to the Doctors to get help with sleeping
tablets and pain management (the last 3 months I've been waiting for a double
wisdom extraction) and stopped trying to carry the world and it's problems on
my shoulders.

Later that week I found in a fairly horrible way that my partner of 7 years
had cheated on me and I threw her out.

I stuck with the resolution I'd made to keep changing my life.

Now I'm sat at work taking a break after writing some really nice code to
handle a problem that had stumped me for a month, I'll pack up for the day in
a couple of hours then I'm going home to have a shower and going out on my
bike for a 45 mile ride then home, netflix documentary and sleep.

In the last month I nearly destroyed my business, my health and my wellbeing
as well as losing a long term relationship and I'm happier today than I have
been in 4 years.

I have off moments but I just remember how bad I felt when I was sat at 2am
watching the moon wishing everything would end and that they will pass in
time.

The anxiety attacks have just about gone completely and meditation seems to
control the ones that I do get.

I've also realised that none of this stuff business, relationship or whatever
is worth sacrificing my own long term happiness over, I was miserable for 4
years, no more.

~~~
michaelgrafl
Good for you.

One question though: did your spouse cheating on you have anything to do with
you working that much for the last 4 years? How did the relationship even last
that long? How much time did you spend together and how many nice things did
you do together?

I'm asking because the relationship I'm in would probably suffer a lot if I
worked 80 hour weeks for two weeks in a row, let alone 4 years. I'm wondering
how other people's relationships look from the inside.

~~~
noir_lord
> did your spouse cheating on you have anything to do with you working that
> much for the last 4 years?

Probably, I worked so hard to build a future for us both that I ended up
neglecting her far too much, I think if you don't get the emotional support
you deserve off your other half sometimes you'll be tempted to look for it
elsewhere, I can forgive her for that but I don't want to be in a relationship
with someone who cheats, she could have at any point told me that's how she
was feeling and I would have listened, mistakes both sides.

> How did the relationship even last that long?

We loved each other and I was working for our future plus despite the hours I
tried to make time for her.

> I'm wondering how other people's relationships look from the inside.

I'm wondering that as well, the reality is that when you work 9am - 7pm 7 days
a week there is not much time or energy to do anything else.

I've learnt my lesson but it came at a high price however the price would be
wasted if I didn't learn.

------
danielweber
Some companies see their employees as orange trees that they need to keep
healthy year after year.

Some companies see their employees as oranges they need to squeeze as much as
possible.

~~~
YorkianTones
There are doors. There are revolving doors.

~~~
lightyrs
There are doors that let you in

And out but never open

But there are trapdoors

That you can't come back from

------
valevk
In my opinion and unfortunately experience, burnout is tightly coupled with
procrastination. Neither burnout, nor procrastination is classified as
disease, though. It is known, that a burnout is a life-management difficulty.
[1]

To get to my point, the whole burnout process starts with procrastinating.
However, the sources for procrastination can be very different. This is where
you should fight the problem. If you have depression, get help. If you are
lazy, well that sucks. (Sounds easy, I know. It is not easy in real life, I
know). But in the end, your own inaction is digging your grave.

It's not the break you need. You need a new approach to handling life.
Handling life differently. If you keep "only" taking breaks, the burnout
becomes a cycle, instead of a one-time exhaustion. And you will go throught
this cycle often.

The fact that I'm writing this, instead of studing/working, shows that my
procrastination problem continues to grow, and eventually enlarging the
burnout on the horizon.

[1]
[http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/Z7...](http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/Z73.0)

------
jimbokun
"As a software developer, I’m passionate about writing codes and creating new
things. However, as I also need to perform managerial duties, I had less and
less time to do so. Repeatedly, I had to work for days without writing any
useful code for the team, I became highly agitated."

It's surprising how hard it can be to find time to just write code, even with
a full time job in software development.

Meetings. Email. Technical feasibility. Gathering requirements. Testing.
Investigating bugs. Various forms of technical support. Architecture and
design. Documentation. Time sheets. Reports. Fixing builds and managing
dependencies.

All of these are good and important and necessary for any software product to
succeed. But they call also really suck the passion and productivity out of a
person.

~~~
abhimskywalker
"All of these are good and important and necessary for any software product to
succeed. But they call also really suck the passion and productivity out of a
person." Exactly! How do you normally deal with these? (Just curious as a
still younger developer who has recently left business corporate world (excel
etc.) about a year ago to pursue developing as full time at a startup)

These are the most frustrating things that start consuming a growing chunk of
your time. Writing code for hours on trot to solve problems is always a joy,
but when these coding sessions start becoming rare... well you just start
hating these hygiene things even more and at times this negativity starts
extending to people and other stuff around... Not cool at all. Still looking
for better solutions... as these are what i think contribute more towards the
frustration and consequently burnouts

~~~
jimbokun
Occasionally I will block off a several hour appointment on my calendar
labeled "Develop Software". Usually works. Sometimes do it for our entire
team.

------
funkaster
Here's a crazy idea: work less. Try first with a 40 hour week. Then 35. Just
the 40 hour week could probably give you enough time to do other things you
want. And make this mental note: if your business _needs_ you constantly for
more than 40 hours a week, you're doing something wrong. Your work should be
your passion, but it shouldn't consume your life.

~~~
Huppie
I agree with what you're saying but as someone who has had this issue recently
but also already works a relaxed 36 hours a week I think the article was
pretty much spot-on.

------
gboudrias
I'm pretty sure burnout is endemic to this industry, if not most of society.
It's a good idea to be on the lookout. Don't underestimate the dangers of
burning out (they may include losing your passion entirely).

Thanks for taking the time to write this article.

------
stygiansonic
The human body is generally well-adapted to maintaining homeostasis, in the
absence of extreme illness and disease, i.e. feeling thirsty when you need
fluids, hunger when you need calories and needing sleep when you're tired.

However, sometimes external and internal factors can cause us to ignore these
basic needs/warning signs. The need to meet a deadline, the need to not let
down your coworkers or the need to demonstrate "passions" for your line of
work. The first two apply pretty much to any job nowadays, while the latter
applies groups that are often expected to show a "portfolio" of their work,
such as artists, musicians, graphic designers and increasingly, software
developers.

All of these demands can easily lead to burnout and a lack of passion, not
just tiredness. Feeling tired is one thing, as one usually ascribe that
physical causes. But having a feeling of lacking passion can be soul-crushing,
as it leads one to question whether one is in the right field of work. This is
perhaps the one of the worst effects of burnout and must be avoided. Burnout
is the cause and a lack of passion is merely a symptom.

Realizing there is much more to life than work-related goals, as the article
suggests, is a good solution.

------
amwelles
The only way I've been able to avoid burnout is to be deeply involved in
things outside of work. I work a 9-6 front-end development job, but I also
teach people how to train their dogs once a week, I write creatively for my
own purposes, and I teach coding classes a few times a year. By adding variety
and focusing on a few things that are important to me, I don't get burnt out
on any of them. It does mean that I'm busy, but I've never felt more stable
than I do now. I think having those competing priorities helps me keep the
balance that I need to avoid burnout.

~~~
lostcolony
In what context do you teach coding? I thoroughly enjoyed teaching while a TA
in college, and have periodically thought I'd enjoy doing it again, but I
don't have the inclination to go back for further degrees, nor deal with
academia.

~~~
amwelles
I've been teaching with Girl Develop It. If you have a chapter in your area, I
highly recommend it! Both men and women can attend/teach, although its main
goal is to promote more women in tech.

~~~
angersock
Rails Girls is also a great opportunity.

------
enraged_camel
The author's theory is that burnout is caused by not doing the things one
loves.

I have a different, albeit perhaps related theory: burnout is caused by not
being able to get in the "flow" for extended periods of time.

I can relate to the author's example of having split duties involving coding
and not coding, as I'm in the same boat. About half of my week involves
developing my company's learning management system, and the other half
involves going to meetings about various training activities that are hosted
on the system. The latter part is what causes burnout, because the meetings
are spread out through the day and totally disrupt my flow. No matter how hard
I have tried, I haven't been able to block out large, uninterrupted chunks. As
a result, I find myself in these situations where just as I'm about to get in
the zone, I get a reminder that says "meeting in 15 minutes!"

It has reached a point where I started looking for other jobs. Anyone need a
Rails developer? :(

~~~
collyw
Sounds like my situation exactly. Down to looking for other jobs (except I am
a Django developer).

------
reitanqild
Isn't burnout originally something way worse than exhausted and demotivated?
Examples:

I burnt out once, it left me crying everytime I where alone and took me months
to get through the first phase. Anything that reminded me about the old job,
e.g. a faulty drive-train, could trigger stomach pain etc. It took 5 full
years before I was really myself again even though I studied and had normal
jobs during those years.

I have seen a couple of friends and colleagues go through the same. One of
them was a promising technician who had to leave it.

Whenever I read articles like this I wonder if we are talking about the same
kind of burnout? (And yes, English is not my first language.)

~~~
cauterized
That sounds more like nervous breakdown than burnout.

------
swayvil
I was writing code for this company. Had burnout. Couldn't concentrate. Like
something was broken in my head. Tried. Couldn't. Stopped trying. Then tried
some more. Then floated in a haze between trying and not-trying. Started
having really bad dreams. Would wake up, run down the road freaked out.
Hallucinating.

Quit my job of course. I'm not stupid.

------
dsirijus
> there were times when I got completely burnt out as often as once every few
> days

Hm, maybe we call two different things a _burnout_. I had it twice, one ending
in a visit to ER, the other one blasting a single song at max volume for 20h
then crying and trying to quit my job.

I don't think the author actually had one, at least not by my definition of
it.

That aside, my main cause of burnouts was working extremely hard on something
and not finishing it, for a long time. Or always going after a moving target.
Management and goal setting issue, really, and easy one to solve - break huge
goals into subgoals, or even - don't have big goals at all.

~~~
throwawayaway
both of those sound like nervous breakdowns.

~~~
Kabacaru
Which is what a bad burnout is.

~~~
pessimizer
If that's what you want to call it. I always thought of burnout as not being
able or not having the desire to continue keeping up the professional pace
that you've been keeping over a long period of time. It doesn't have to
include any irrational element, or even explode into a cathartic moment to be
burnout as far as I've heard it discussed.

'Succumbing to burnout' I get - 'having a burnout' is not a phrasing that I'm
even familiar with.

------
cenhyperion
I firmly believe that the reason most major religions standardized a sabbath
day was for mental health reasons. There's a lot of value to taking a day for
yourself in which you do no work.

Even if you love what you do, you can't do it for 10 hours every single day
for years.

~~~
mattgibson
I've heard something similar suggested as part of the reason for the spread of
Islam. 5 prayer-breaks per day where you get to chill out in the shade for a
bit is a pretty compelling offer in a hot part of the world. Especially if you
are doing manual labour.

------
cookiecaper
I don't think this article really says anything that isn't obvious. We all
know that serious cases of burnout happen because you don't like what you're
doing. We all only have so much patience and tolerance for things we dislike.
The answer is to stop doing things you don't like doing so much, and do things
you do like doing more, and make this a permanent change, not just a two week
break before you jump back into the things you hate; that may prolong your
tolerance, but you'll eventually run out again. We have to find an equilibrium
between the enjoyable and the necessary that allows us to be productive but
doesn't make us hate our lives. That's no secret.

The problem is that most people don't have many options to change their
situation in a significant way -- all they can do, if they're lucky, is take a
short vacation and hope that re-energizes them enough to go into another
grueling year without having a breakdown. Some of us have to try to manage a
constantly ongoing breakdown without disrupting the work that brings in the
bacon.

If your version of "burnout" is completely resolved by taking a vacation, you
weren't burning out, you just needed a short break. In my mind, burnout refers
to a larger state of mental exhaustion.

~~~
AnonJ
Not exactly. Many people don't realize the situation at all. And also, there
_are_ many ways to find and reserve time for things you love, which are not
necessarily related with/constrained by your work at all. People just fall
into a vicious cycle so that they gradually forget to do those things
altogether, and let things continue deteriorating.

------
moron4hire
>> there were times when I got completely burnt out as often as once every few
days.

That's not multiple burnouts. That's one burnout.

That's what burnout is like. It's not a complete inability to work. It's a
lack of consistency. I think that's why so many people don't think to do
anything about it. They think, "if I just quit being so lazy..." they could
get everything done. Clearly, they're capable. And it is clearly not
permanent. So the problem must be them, right?

Wrong. The problem with lack of consistency and reliability is a feedback
loop. If you don't keep to regular, sustainable hours, your body will take up
the deficit later. Your mean productivity is basically set, it's your standard
deviation that you can control.

So, you either work really hard now and have everyone freak out that you're
not being as productive as they've come to expect out of you. Or you just not
establish an expectation of being hyperproductive in short bursts.

To overuse a metaphor: you don't win a marathon in the first 100 meters.

------
phazmatis
Interesting article. I think burnout can be caused by a number of things, but
I don't think everyone has a different burnout trigger. When faced with non-
ideal conditions/expectations, burnout is inevitable. Sone people can cope
with different burnout causes better than others, but if, say, your work is
soul-scorching then it'll eventually get to you.

------
AnonJ
Personally I think he exactly hit the spot. A few years ago I regularly did
things that I loved so I was achieving in various aspects and feeling happy
although doing a lot. But later some interpersonal relationships went awry,
the habit was broken and my life descended into a mess, without myself really
realizing it. These two years I’ve been doing much less yet feeling much more
burnt out and ineffective than I previously was, indeed because I have been
kept from those regular things that I love for too long. Unfortunately I
didn’t realize it in the beginning and probably even have already forgotten
about it gradually. His wording of “epiphany” is exact.

Also, I think many of you here are simply misinterpreting what he means.

Why something you love and is important to you have to be something _in your
work_?

Just as he himself says, he sets multiple rewards for himself, daily, weekly,
monthly.

Where does he say that they are work-related at all?

------
brador
The simple truth is if you're pushing to excel in any competitive field you're
gonna have to push yourself to the limit. That's why the startup game is push,
make FU money and walk, not build a lifestyle business out of it, because by
the time you're done there's nothing left. You've given it your all.

~~~
AnonJ
Read some Peter Thiel and he will tell you that in the ideal startup there
should be no "competition" at all. Competition is a horrible and destructive
thing.

Although, as a fact you have to realize that many people who excel in
competition for example professional athletes keep an exceptionally good
balance. In fact those at the top of competitions are almost always those who
are very good at keeping balance. So your theory simply doesn't hold.

------
ulisesrmzroche
Real burnout has you feeling like your brain is empty, and creative work makes
your head hurt. Last thing you want to do is look at more code.

I actually think this guide is much more accurate:
[http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BurnOut](http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BurnOut)

------
Sami_Lehtinen
"how to deal with burnout more effective" \- That's the key. I have noted that
my burnout often comes from situation, where I constantly feel that I'm not
doing enough. Reason for that is that you should do everything and always
optimize to maximum and be efficient. Things get fixed when you accept, that
it's ok to lazily get to work, do something, if you feel like it, if you don't
then don't. Then wonder home enjoying the world, it might take hours. Eat
something, watch soap opera and go to sleep. - Suddenly you can feel happy,
and not burned out at all. Need to be effective and performing well is the
ultimate trap.

------
AVTizzle
"The solution is actually quite simple: do what you love and is important to
you regularly."

Of course I agree - this is near impossible to argue. It's what pushed me into
entrepreneurship after realizing I wanted to shape my own work reality if it
was something I was going to be spending 40+ hours a week doing.

That said, a reality I feel like I'm coming to grips with is that most of my
friends working traditional/conventional career paths really don't give a damn
about their work.

I'm a little skeptical about the idea that this is practical information most
people working normal jobs will follow through with (that basically means,
quit).

------
127001brewer
Why do we work?

Let's say that for most people following Hacker News, it's because their work
matters to them; and, for others, it's just a paycheck.

Because of these differing work attitudes, you will see some expression of
"burnout" (or some other work-related unhappiness). Keeping in mind these
differences can help, but it won't solve this fundamental difference within a
team.

~~~
pessimizer
>Let's say that for most people following Hacker News, it's because their work
matters to them; and, for others, it's just a paycheck.

I read Hacker News, and I work just for a paycheck. If I weren't working for
the paycheck, I'd expect to have to pay my employers.

------
danatkinson
It's odd but sex is not mentioned even once as a legitimate release.

~~~
hcarvalhoalves
It's common sense between many cultures and philosophies that sex _drains_
energy, at least for males.

~~~
MacsHeadroom
It's "common sense" in many cultures that the opposite is true.

More importantly, the positive benefits of regular sex have been made evident
by virtually every study ever done on the matter.

~~~
hcarvalhoalves
Stress lowers libido though, so I wonder how one would have energy for sex
while feeling burned out.

------
pskittle
This article did strike a nerve esp Meyers quote about burnout stemming from
the desire to not be able to do what u love regularly.

------
autism_hurts
If you don't have the following utterly optimized:

\- Nutrition \- Exercise \- Friends (Support Network)

The above will continue to happen. Get healthy, get a tribe. It's not HN, by
the way.

~~~
bduerst
"Get a tribe" is some of the best advice that can be had.

I think many people have this misconception that humans have "evolved" with
technology, but in reality we're not that different than our plain-dwelling
ancestors.

Sure we have better medicine and more gadgets, but we still have a strong,
subconscious social desire to belong to a group of like-minded humans.

If you don't have a tribe, it's a good idea to find one.

~~~
autism_hurts
Agreed. This is what Crossfit did for me, believe it or not. A group of well-
adjusted, healthy people united by shared misery (sacrifice) who meet every
day of the week for an hour or so.

They're some of my best friends.

It doesn't need to be Crossfit; it can be a user group, LAN gaming, cooking
classes, rotary, biking, climbing, MAKER fair stuff, etc.

Just get out there and talk and share.

