
Ethereum Protocol Developer Holds $115k Worth of DAO Tokens - aakilfernandes
http://aakilfernandes.github.io/ethereum-protocol-developer-holds-114877-dollars-worth-of-dao-tokens
======
darawk
IMO there's nothing wrong with him owning the tokens. But he, and every other
core developer, should have explicitly disclosed this before any discussion of
a soft/hard fork. He can't be the only one core developer who does. And to be
honest, I would _want_ the other core developers to have invested in something
like the DAO.

But we need to know who has what stake in these decisions and be able to
evaluate how that may influence their opinion.

~~~
curiousgal
That's the cool part about consesus, if the majority of miners disagree with
the fork, even the founder himself can't do anything about it.

~~~
noshbrinken
I keep seeing this idea invoked over and over again, and it's starting to bug
me. The problem with this idea is that it conflates technical decentralization
and the spirit or ideals of decentralization. The latter can be betrayed or
degraded even while the former is preserved. Just because the miners aren't
compelled by the network architecture to implement a fork doesn't mean that
there aren't social dynamics which have the effect of centralizing decisions
made by those miners. "Consensus" doesn't have any inherent value or
rightness. Consensus is just a majority of a group electing to do something.
In the world of the decentralized web, consensus is positive only when network
nodes are truly acting autonomously. It's best when this means that each node
acts in self-interest, without regard for or in ignorance of the interests or
positions of the other nodes. This is not what's happening on the Ethereum
network. There's a huge amount of coordination. Ethereum is a network that
hasn't individuated itself from a relatively small group of
creators/maintainers/community members. As long as the network depends on
these people for strength and stability, the miners will be biased to carry
out the wishes of those people. Otherwise the miners risk losing whatever
value they've accrued through their work. So yes, the fork only happens
through a consensus of the miners. But it hasn't been established that the
miners are capable of independent action.

~~~
andrepd
But what's your point? Ethereum is not decentralised because... there are
social dynamics? What do you want to do about it? The protocol is
decentralised, the technology is completely agnostic to anything but the will
of the majority. Of course there will be social dynamics and people will
discuss things and read things and coordinate and influence one another. That
does not invalidate the whole thing.

~~~
oillio
We have to assume Satoshi saw this problem and actually did something about
it.

No one can come out and say, "We must change bitcoin. You should follow me
because I created it."

By removing the founder role, Bitcoin is just that much more decentralized.

~~~
aakilfernandes
I like the Ethereum has a founder and leadership team. I just want them to use
their influence wisely.

~~~
soconfused1
It is better without it. Their leadership position is a bigger liability than
it helps.

------
nowprovision
The Ethereum situation is very sad, a great idea flawed by centralization of
power (or influence if you want to be pedantic in terms), and whilst you could
argue technically all the miners control the network and anyone can
participate if you look at recent events it is currently clearly dictated by
Vitalik Buterin, slock.it and a few other heavily invested and conflicted*
individuals.

When the DAO hack hit the fan Vitalik Buterin immediately instructed the
exchanges to stop (and they did) and then started talking and planning for the
hard forking within hours, this was not only a PR disaster (as it turns out it
wasn't needed) but gave a clear signal to any spectators about where the power
was centralized. He later tried to justify the decentralized nature by saying
"see I had to beg the exchanges"
[https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/743972769717641216](https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/743972769717641216)
but history shows a far different sequence of events than beg and hope they
listen. Smart contracts have a bright future, just not the ethereum
implementation/network/fiasco.

*e.g. [http://pastebin.com/aMKwQcHR#L45](http://pastebin.com/aMKwQcHR#L45) The ethereum foundation can reimburse exchange losses. Without a hard fork and rollback this damage will be permanent and the ecosystem will die.

------
seibelj
Ethereum is such a mess! I have a close friend that invested $12k in ether,
then the value increased to $40k, then he invested a ton into the DAO, which
tanked, then he doubled down and purchased even more DAO at a discount on the
assumption of a fork that would reimburse DAO tokens to parity and he would
make a killing. He's sweating bullets over all of this. Last night he was
going nuts over the soft fork crisis. I don't know how he does it, $12k is a
lot for him

~~~
ryanlol
My friend invested $5000 at a blackjack table in Macau, at one point his $5000
had increased to $40000. He ended up walking away with $2000.

The difference between the two stories is that my friend friend had a really
good time. Why? Because he knew that he wasn't "investing", he was gambling.
If your friend is gambling with more than he can afford, he has a gambling
problem and should seek help.

~~~
dmix
Indeed, I have as much sympathy as your friend as someone who stresses over
his 'investments' in alpha quality cryptocurrency software.

The primary motivation should be investing in technology and the concepts
behind it, not looking for instant-rich ROI.

~~~
curiousgal
That is precisely how I trade. My positions depend on my long-term belief in
the technology, if I believe in it then the general direction of my positions
will reflect that. I'll short it, yeah but I'll always have a stash.

------
nomel
Why wouldn't a founder invest in something they created and believed in? This
is how any founder makes money, they put time/money into their creation,
hoping it will pay off. I must be missing something?

~~~
MichaelBurge
They've proposed a hard or soft fork of the software. Them owning these tokens
may bias them to serve their own interests above those of the Ethereum project
as a whole. Even if they remain completely unbiased, there is at least the
appearance of conflict of interest which may harm the project.

I don't see any problem as long as this was disclosed ahead of time.

------
ryanlol
Not surprising in the slightest.

This whole debate wouldn't even be happening if not for all the core Ethereum
people heavily invested in the DAO.

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ggggtez
Why haven't people realized the bitcoin-esque products are all Ponzi schemes
that developers hope to cash in on? If the product has even mild success, the
developer has created wealth for themselves.

~~~
curiousgal
Following the same logic; Zuckerberg controls most of Facebook's shares, it
must be a huge Ponzi scheme.

~~~
chillwaves
Facebook is providing value outside of a small sphere of followers. Bitcoin is
a feedback loop.

~~~
curiousgal
I live in a country with backwards financial laws; no PayPal and ridiculous
credit card regulations. Bitcoin has been the only way I could purchase stuff/
pay for books/servers online. No one can take away the fact that it has
changed my life more than Facebook ever could. Certainly I am one data point
but to discard the entire technology just because one doesn't see the value in
it seems self-centric and hasty.

~~~
tzs
> I live in a country with backwards financial laws; no PayPal and ridiculous
> credit card regulations. Bitcoin has been the only way I could purchase
> stuff/ pay for books/servers online.

What country?

~~~
curiousgal
IP block 197.0.0.0/11

------
Animats
This person is Vitalik Buterin, right?

I get the impression that Etherium is really Vitalik Buterin, and the other
names are window dressing. Is that correct?

~~~
bhaak
Vitalik has said[1] that he has put 1500 ETH into TheDAO (0.3% of his ETH
holdings).

So if you believe this than it's not him.

But yes, Vitalik gets the "many ETH-believers want him to be their ersatz
satoshi" treatment. But IMO, he's ignoring those attempts and not encouraging
it at all.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4pgf03/fork_call_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4pgf03/fork_call_for_ethereum_governance_rules/d4kovuo)

------
jbmorgado
Welcome to the new financial overlords much better than the old financial
overlords.

The gods of "libertarianism" must be laughing right now.

~~~
aminok
At least no one threatens to throw me in prison if I don't pay taxes to
support Ethereum.

But it's totally cool and even funny that we throw people in prison, where
they are kept in small enclosures, and where they often develop mental and
suffer physical and sexual abuse, for not meeting our intrusive demands. Lol.
Yeah it's the libertarians that are dogmatic psychopaths, not us.

~~~
jbmorgado
You can always go and live in the jungle. Seriously, if you don't want to
contribute to society then why don't you just leave? Nobody will force you to
pay taxes from then on.

Or may it be that you just want to rip all the benefits of living in a society
but then want to be cool and "libertarian" and choose not to contribute to it?

~~~
aminok
Hey people who live under Sharia Law can go live in the desert so they have
nothing to complain about.

We have a right to throw people in prison if they don't contribute money to
our big projects. Yea it's those libertarians who are the psychopathic loons,
not us.

>Or may it be that you just want to rip all the benefits of living in a
society but then want to be cool and "libertarian" and choose not to
contribute to it?

Why does one have to contribute to society to be permitted to live in a
country and interact with other members of it? Why do we have to throw those
who do not contribute in prison? Look what you're endorsing. You're like the
High Sparrow.

~~~
jbmorgado
Because you rip the benefits of being surrounded by people that had an
education paid by the state, that were allowed to live because they had
healthcare paid by the state, because they had mobility paid by the state, and
a big number if things paid by the state. Not only that but you most probably
benefited from all those things paid by the state as well.

You are contributing to being surrounded by members of society that are
uplifted by that same society and that favors all. And again, if you don't
like that, go and live away from civilization and don't pay your taxes, but
stop complaining that you don't want to pay and then rip all the benefits the
same.

~~~
aminok
I don't reap any benefits. The level of education would have been far higher
if the state did not impose an income tax and did not provide government
education or social welfare payments.

Per capita wealth and GDP would be substantially higher, making for a more
prosperous society.

Moreover, you can't justify imposing a debt on someone by the fact that you
provided something to them without their asking for it. If I mow your lawn
without you agreeing to pay me for it, I can't take you to court to demand you
pay for the service on the basis that you benefited from having your lawn
mowed.

Somehow you think all principles of justice and basic fairness go out the door
if the holy government is the one behind the action.

------
eththrowa
It is a private individual at a private company - and his investment was
already public knowledge:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDao/comments/4j6nv7/you_have_bee...](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDao/comments/4j6nv7/you_have_been_warned_gavin_wood_re_the_dao/d34jhp1)

OP is just concern trolling.

