
Amazon reopen wiped Kindle account - EwanToo
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======
cletus
This is a good outcome and something that should probably be enshrined in law:
if you've purchased ebooks (or in fact any digital media) then you should
absolutely have access to it regardless of the state of your account. The only
time this shouldn't apply (IMHO) is when the payment itself is in question (eg
you used a credit card that got reported stolen so any items bought on suspect
transactions may be suspended pending investigation).

It shouldn't surprise me that some give credence to conspiracy theories but it
does. Amazon panicked and reversed itself because a story about removing DRM
was on the front page of HN? Seriously?

What you'll find with customer service departments is that what they do is
largely prescribed by scripts. Call centers work like this (to the point of
there being checking to see that people don't deviate from the script). They
will have procedures that must be followed.

The Mark Fiore example [1] springs to mind. Some saw some global conspiracy.
The more likely explanation is that the procedures defined for those approving
apps just hadn't taken such a scenario into account when being written ie it
was an oversight (a "mistake" as Steve Jobs called it).

We're all too willing to accept bugs in software. Procedures that humans need
to follow--particularly if they need to follow them rigidly--have bugs too.
The more discretion you give those following the procedures, the more you tend
to just add inconsistency.

[1]: [http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/pulitzer-
wi...](http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/pulitzer-winners-app-
is-approved-finally-by-apple/)

EDIT: to clarify, I think the original story getting as much of an audience as
it did certainly helped and may well have been instrumental. It's kind of sad
that that's the case. I was referring to some commenters putting forward
theories about the DRM removal story being the catalyst for action here, which
is ludicrous.

~~~
edanm
You really don't think the article getting published has anything to do with
Amazon's about-face? I'm surprised. I usually assume that these kinds of
stories _do_ cause companies to change their behaviour in specific cases.

Why do you think otherwise?

Note: I love Amazon and agreed with your defending of them in the original
post. I'm honestly surprised that it isn't obvious that the article influenced
Amazon here.

~~~
danso
When's the last time a submission to HN got more than 1000 upvotes? When Steve
Jobs died? I think the article's popularity (not just on HN, but HN's upvotes
are a decent measure of how much an article will be re-shared) is most
definitely a reason for this one person's problem being fixed.

~~~
EwanToo
According to this:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/over?points=1000>

1000 points happened around a month ago as well, but before that there doesn't
seem to be any, though I'd expect Steve Job's death to be much higher -
perhaps it was hidden after a time?

~~~
zorlem
This works only for entries that are in HN's memory cache. Older stories don't
appear, unless somebody has read them soon.

For a full list of stories with high-scores you can consult HNSearch [1]

[1]:
[http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/submissions&sortb...](http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/submissions&sortby=points+desc&q=+&start=0)

------
jiggy2011
So moral of the story? Make sure you have a blog with significant readership
if you want good customer service?

~~~
jmilloy
Does anyone have any data about how often [Amazon] ignores or fixes customer
service issues despite a lack of high-visibility blogging?

My 10th grade world history teacher had a small segment on the rainmaking
rituals of some group of people. When rain was needed, they would continue the
rituals until it rained. From their view, the rituals worked. I don't think
clouds drift around waiting for the rituals to build up, and I don't think
customer service departments sit around waiting for blog entries about their
company.

I'm not suggesting that large companies are blind to signal from the public,
or that they ignore it. But why do we think that without such signal from the
public these fixes wouldn't have happened, other than a cultural aversion to
large companies and their PR departments?

~~~
TillE
> I don't think customer service departments sit around browsing the internet
> for blog entries about their company

This story bubbled up through HN, BoingBoing, and many other tech news
outlets. Someone at Amazon inevitably saw it. Nobody's claiming they randomly
stumbled across the original blog entry.

~~~
jmilloy
I'll reply to just this comment, although each response I've gotten is
similar.

I'm not claiming that no one at Amazon was aware that the issue had public
visibility. I'm not even claiming that the public visibility in this case
didn't contribute to the swift, clear, and visible resolution we've seen.

Instead, I'm asking for evidence that high visibility correlates strongly with
a resolution. Honestly, I will not be surprised if it exists. But no number of
highly visible stories that are resolved will provide that evidence on their
own.

Certainly, the _way_ in which a large company discovers that an issue has
become highly visible is completely irrelevant. The question is whether, if an
issue doesn't become highly visible, do they still try to resolve it or do
they ignore it?

~~~
tsotha
The only possible evidence for this would be either an internal email or an
admission from Amazon.

Based on the email she got I'd say from Amazon's point of view the matter was
closed. There had to be some prod to get them to take another look. If not the
publicity, what was it?

~~~
jmilloy
Again, it's not about this instance, which is one data point on the side of
"publicity -> resolution". And there are many more data points on the side of
"publicity -> resolution". Instead, the evidence required is data points on
the side of "no publicity -> no resolution". The fact that Amazon didn't solve
the issue until the publicity exists doesn't count as a "no publicity -> no
resolution" data point.

Somehow, this is less clear to others than it is to me. I'll break it out into
some cases. If the data points are mostly

\- a mix of "publicity -> resolution" and "no publicity -> resolution", then
publicity is irrelevant.

\- a mix of "publicity -> resolution" and "no publicity -> no resolution",
then truly the moral of the story is to have publicity if you want a
resolution.

\- a bunch of "publicity -> resolution", then we cannot make any conclusions!

We hear about the issues with publicity because, well... they have publicity.
We make up the other half because it fits our preconceived bias.

~~~
tsotha
I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is, as a practical matter,
there's no reason to believe her case would have been reopened without
publicity. The Amazon rep said quite clearly from Amazon's perspective the
matter was closed.

------
sodomizer
This is the real outcome:

"Account status should not affect any customer's ability to access their
library."

Amazon has realized that they can quarantine suspect accounts, but not cut off
the customer's right to their purchased books.

Every other manufacturer is now going to follow suit. The end result is a win
for the consumer.

~~~
danteembermage
Thank you for pointing out this important aspect of the story, when these
public shamings lead to structural change it is much different than just
switching the particular use case the produced the embarrassing result.

Welcome to the community! I would like to point out that sexually explicit
usernames are not the norm here. Since your comment history and karma are tied
to your user account and that account may persist for a long time, you might
consider changing to a different name before you get too invested in this one
and regret it later when it's too late to easily switch. Many users are known
here by their handle and it is not uncommon for people to say things like
"Send up the Patio11/Cpercival/Grellas/TokenAdult bat signal!" because users
remember who made valuable comments and may recognize you by name. You are of
course free to choose for yourself, your call.

------
podperson
It's astonishing to me how Amazon, which is more of a monopoly in many
respects than Apple has ever been or Microsoft currently is, is essentially
walmarting entire industries and gets almost no negative press over it. (It's
even getting help from friendly congresspersons to strengthen its ebook
monopoly.)

I've been forced to withdraw my $20 ebook from Amazon because I simply cannot
afford to price it at $20 in the kindle store (Amazon pays the same royalty
for books priced at $10-20 as books priced at $10, and it pays lower royalties
than BN or iBooks). I'm not allowed to price my ebook so that I effectively
get paid the same (which entails selling the book at $40 for Kindle and $20
for everything else) because that violates Amazon's "you cannot sell for less
elsewhere" rules.

Similarly, Amazon sells book readers that are incompatible with rival book
formats, including ePub. No-one complains.

~~~
Dylan16807
Upon reading your comment I went to look up Amazon royalty information. Let me
know if I got this right.

A book that is 3-10 dollars, sold in the first world, gets you 70% royalties
minus a few cents for delivery. If you want to set a price over $10, then you
only get 35% royalties.

So it's not that Amazon flat-out gives much lower royalties, it's that they
give much lower royalties for books that cost more than ten dollars. They
don't want to give you more than seven dollars per sale.

~~~
alanfalcon
That's basically all true, except it's not always just "a few cents" for
delivery, especially if you have full color photos or illustrations as a part
of your eBook. On other platforms there is no delivery fee and no price range
required to receive the 70% royalty rate. So there is a window for certain
books where the Amazon rates are competitive, and of course they have the
largest marketplace for eBooks so it's usually advantageous to play within
those bounds.

------
Nursie
They reopened it because people heard about it and then started talking about
stripping DRM and resorting to piracy, so somebody, somewhere decided to make
this go away as fast as possible and as quietly as possible.

/cynic

~~~
tomrod
I've never understood how DRM can be stripped from a mobi file. I've never
been able to find the files when I looked on my ipod. (I think I've shown my
lack of hacking on the ipod with this comment--eep!).

~~~
jmount
Usually you use a general computer to strip the DRM. On a Mac or PC you have a
program masquerade as a client (like Kindle for PC) and then remove the DRM
from the contents it get. MyTunes was for Itunes was like that in the past.

------
lambada
Explanation/ update here: [http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon-
says/2012/10/rights-y...](http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon-
says/2012/10/rights-you-have-no-right-to-your-ebooks/index.htm)

~~~
thomaslutz
"We would like to clarify our policy on this topic. Account status should not
affect any customer's ability to access their library. If any customer has
trouble accessing their content, he or she should contact customer service for
help. Thank you for your interest in Kindle."

~~~
kmfrk
It's astonishing that they _persist_ with the robotic language in their
clarification. Something tantamount to "We fucked up, sorry, dude" would help
them so much more.

I guess it just reflects their attitude towards customers.

~~~
calinet6
This is what any company with global brand recognition would say. Anything
more would open them up to horrendous lawsuits, and anything less might cause
more criticism. It's a well-crafted statement of fact with an invitation to
solve issues through their customer service department—basically admitting
they were in the wrong (but not too much), and that their policy has been
clarified.

The robotic language is a legal _necessity_ for corporations and it does not
reflect on their attitude towards customers in the least.

~~~
jellicle
Nope. While "content-free" statements may well be encouraged by lawyers
attempting to be risk-averse, there's no basis in fact or law for that.
Indeed, studies in medical malpractice have shown that doctors and hospitals
that promptly admit fault and apologize are less, not more, likely to be sued
for malpractice.

The content-free statements are not only infuriating to your customers, they
are actually counter-productive in a purely fiscal sense.

~~~
travisp
>Indeed, studies in medical malpractice have shown that doctors and hospitals
that promptly admit fault and apologize are less, not more, likely to be sued
for malpractice.

There's a huge context difference here. These studies are dealing with the
doctor apologizing to the patient (or their family) and being less likely to
be sued _by that patient_ (or their family). This has a lot to do with
emotions and how the patient or their family feels about the doctor and the
doctor's actions.

In the case of Amazon here, it's essentially making a statement to the world
that could be used by anyone as part of a lawsuit. I imagine the class-action
lawyers looking at these things aren't going to let their feelings about
Amazon change their minds.

------
pasbesoin
I find the lack of transparency on Amazon's part entirely unacceptable.

(I can imagine and understand -- although not always agree with -- the desire
to e.g. keep some technical aspects of fraud detection private. Beyond that, I
have zero sympathy.

And even in the event of some so-called "fraud detection", we have powerful
entities who on the one hand want to benefit from a "global market" while on
the other hand simultaneously seeking to restrict same when doing so is to
their benefit. For example, taking advantage of lower "third world" production
costs while insisting upon receiving "first world" prices for their own
goods.)

P.S. I've had two friends communicate that they are backing out of pending
Kindle purchases, since I shared this story with them. (In case any Amazon
types are browsing by here.)

------
Aardwolf
Does anyone know if Kindle supports reading normal (by which I mean without
DRM or so) PDF files, even PDF files where each page is an image rather than
text? Is it possible to put PDF files on it through USB as "mass storage
device", or at least in some way that supports doing it from Linux through
USB? Is it possible to do this without Kindle account?

Because, the hardware of the device looks nice to me, especially if you'd add
a water proof cover around it.

Thanks!

~~~
evilduck
E-Ink Kindles can _technically_ display PDFs, but in practical terms, you
wouldn't want to read a PDF book on one. Unless the PDF dimensions are just
perfect (and it rarely ever happens, maybe the DX is better?) or you generated
the PDF yourself, a PDF's typical page margin gets rendered, generally
cropping off the text on the bottom and/or right hand side of the page. This
means that you have to pan the PDF page back to a near-center position _every
page turn_. It's disruptive to your reading flow.

~~~
happimess
When reading PDFs on my Kindle, I change the orientation to landscape. It's
not a perfect solution, as diagrams are sometimes broken in half, but it works
well enough for me.

------
brador
If the writer wanted to make Amazon pay for the wipe she has certainly
achieved that with her post.

My Kindles hit Ebay a few hours ago. I'm out of the Amazon digital ecosystem.

~~~
codewright
What are you replacing them with?

~~~
brador
I was already splitting my ebook purchasing between the Apple bookstore and
Amazon.

From this point, ebook purchases will be through Apple or a purchase of the
real book. I kinda miss the feel of a real book too so that's a nice change.
If I _need_ a digital copy, and it's Amazon exclusive, then I'll be using
"other sources".

~~~
alex_c
Out of curiosity (I haven't purchased ebooks from either source), what makes
Apple more reliable than Amazon?

~~~
brador
They have yet to pull a stunt like this. As far as I'm aware, they are unable
to remotely modify Apple devices. Until proven otherwise, I trust them.

~~~
0x0
Just wait.

<https://iphone-services.apple.com/clbl/unauthorizedApps>

Edit: And don't forget the remote wipe feature in Find My iPhone.
[http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/08/apple-amazon-mat-
hona...](http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/08/apple-amazon-mat-honan-
hacking/)

------
axx
I bet it was exactly like this:

1\. Kindle-wipe Story on Hackernews.

2\. One engineer at Amazon saw the story, told it some Executive above him

3\. The Executive "nerds, let them talk THIS is real business!"

4\. One day later "How To Strip DRM from Kindle E-Books and Others
(wired.com)" on Hackernews

5\. The Executive "OH SNAP! REOPEN REOPEN REOPEN!!11"

~~~
jmduke
Ha ha! Executives are dumb and also terrible people!

/sigh

------
zizee
Some people might be thinking "Well done Amazon for correcting this mistake"
or "Amazon just caved due to pressure of bad press" but I am thinking that if
Amazon can wipe a kindle remotely, I do not want such a device and will
purchase a product which does not have this "feature".

Seriously, fuck them.

~~~
alecco
Better: buy a subsidized unit but don't buy their DRM ebooks ;) It's trivial
to do.

------
doki_pen
Support Policy:

If you feel that your account has been erroneously disabled, then got viral
with your story, only then will we investigate your claims.

~~~
rhizome
More like, "if you have trouble with customer service, please contact customer
service."

~~~
tytso
... and after customer service has blown you off saying that from their
perspective, the case has been closed and you have no avenues of appeal,
_then_ try to make the story go viral....

------
thomaslutz
Like e.g. with Google actions without explantations, but the refusal to give
them are the worst for me as a customer.

~~~
smoyer
It's a standard "big-corp" thing. I can understand why they'd avoid saying why
a credit card transaction was rejected, but they're missing an opportunity to
remind the world that their corporation is actually made up of humans.

~~~
ihsw
It's simply a shitty attitude, and being a large corporation is irrelevant.

~~~
smoyer
Perhaps, but it's easier to hide behind the "corporate veil" when you're part
of a huge company. You can get away with saying "that's not allowed" at every
turn, while the CEO of a 20 person company is much more accessible to help
deal with these problems. The reality is that most big companies would be much
better off if their CEOs actually knew about issues like this ... I think most
of them care about customer satisfaction quite a bit but are insulated from
that level of detail.

------
yason
If I were her, I would _so_ immediately copy the ebooks that are available
again, for now, then find a way to free them from DRM and close my Amazon
account myself.

Then I would go lobbying for a law that would make it a legal requirement to
make digitally restricted products available to the user in unencumbered
format if the user's account gets terminated or if the company goes out of
business. So, basically the user would _buy_ the song/book/movie but hand over
the appropriate _storage_ to the company for as long as the account remains
open. Then, if the storage gets shut down the user would still own copies of
his/her files.

------
chanux
It's good to hear Linn has her stuff back but this doesn't guarantee future
situations like this would have similar good endings. What I infer from 'no
explanations' is it's mostly a PR plaster.

It's sad that such problems will be solved only by huge exposure to the story.
Not something everyone can have all the time. Happy but sad.

------
sgt
That's a very bad translation - although I'm still impressed because it's
programmatic and the technology has come pretty far (and I am grateful to
Google for providing Google Translate in general!).

So "Amazon did an about-face" actually means "Amazon did a change in
direction" or even "Amazon did a 180 degree turn".

~~~
sukuriant
How is it a bad translation? I was headed to the comments with the intention
of applauding Google for a truly incredible translation service! Reading that
wasn't blocky or painful, like reading programatically translated texts used
to be. Is the idea of what is said wrong? Did they make a huge mistake in any
section? Or small mistakes everywhere?

As already commented, "did an about-face" is an English idiom

~~~
gizzlon
I'm not GP, but I also though "about-face" was an error.

I'm impressed as well, but there are errors like: "e-bokgiganten" (the e-book
giant), "type IT consultant Linn.." (wrote the IT consultant..) and I don't
think "Spread Monday blog post" is correct either? (On Monday the blog-post
about .. spread) etc..

Still impressive though :)

~~~
sukuriant
Ah yes. I saw a few of those too. It's certainly not perfect. I actually
skimmed the article rather than reading the details; and I was honestly
impressed that I _could_ skim the article.

------
eykanal
Have any native english publications covered this story? Strange that the only
new source to publish a follow-up to what was a very popular story would be
some random Norwegian newspaper.

------
donniezazen
I am just surprised the way these companies work. They don't even owe as
little as information to their customers and our government enable them to do
that.

------
zvrba
Meta-comment: I've read the article in english and norwegian side-by-side, and
I'm impressed by google's translation.

------
dkrich
I'm guessing one Michael Murphy is polishing up the old resume right about
now.

------
wissler
Doesn't matter to me. The fact that Amazon can break and enter into my devices
with impunity is completely unacceptable. The fact that I can't back up my own
purchases without hacking is completely unacceptable.

I'll continue using Kindle for free content but I'll be buying only real books
unless there is very clear legislation, or a change in Amazon's technology,
supporting my right to keep and control my own purchases. Amazon (and not just
Amazon) has too much power here and has repeatedly demonstrated that they will
abuse it.

~~~
hobbes
You can backup your purchases using copy-and-paste to your hard drive. Or do
you mean "remove DRM"?

I agree with your second paragraph.

