
Zuckerberg-Backed Data Trove Exposes the Injustices of Criminal Justice - sprucely
https://www.wired.com/2017/05/zuckerberg-backed-data-trove-exposes-injustices-criminal-justice/
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wyldfire
This site [1] seems like a great complement to usafacts.org. It's great that
these philanthropists are working on solutions to help us understand the
empirical results of our policies and politicians.

[1]
[https://measuresforjustice.org/portal/](https://measuresforjustice.org/portal/)

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emodendroket
I wonder about USAFacts. When I checked it out there were a ton of financial
figures over a period of decades that didn't seem to be inflation-adjusted,
which I think is likely to totally mislead people.

~~~
graphememes
Could you expand on this a little bit for someone who isn't as familiar and
might be prone to being mislead by it?

~~~
emodendroket
It's possible for an amount to be more in nominal dollars but less in real
dollars if you don't adjust for inflation. If you had $20 in 1913 it would be
equivalent to having almost 500 bucks today.

Basically, it can look like spending on something has gone way up even if in
reality it has gone down.

~~~
ptaipale
I think this is perfectly fine if the data just states whether the sums are in
adjusted or nominal currency.

Doing the conversion is an elementary school thing. And not even that: just
type "1000 dollars in 1947" to Google, and you'll get a number of links that
do the conversion.

Sometimes it's the deceptive conversions that are a problem, so keeping in
nominal sums helps with data integrity.

~~~
emodendroket
Well, I have a few problems with that:

Firstly, they _don 't_ clearly explain that the figures aren't inflation-
adjusted. You have to surmise that. And we're talking about line graphs. I
think you are seriously overestimating the number of people who will think to
do the conversion and follow through, rather than just looking at the general
direction of the chart and a few figures.

I am not sure what you mean when you say that "sometimes deceptive conversions
are the problem," but in my view there isn't much reason to produce a line
graph for something like average salary over time or average social spending
over time as a line graph _without_ inflation-adjusted figures unless you
either are ignorant of the issues with such data or intend to mislead people
(and indeed such graphs are quite misleading since the numbers go up but not
apace with inflation). I can't see much legitimate interest in such a graph.

~~~
ptaipale
> you mean when you say that "sometimes deceptive conversions are the problem,

I mean conversions where the index for conversion is chosen deceptively. The
general inflation index is almost always at least tolerable, but occasionally
the conversions use some other price index that produces more dramatic and
politically desired results.

~~~
emodendroket
OK, fair enough. Nevertheless, I stand by my criticisms.

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taxicabjesus
I posted about some of my passengers' justice-induced traumas:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13286085](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13286085)

Punishment is always counter-productive to correct the behavior of people who
are "drowning": addicts, members of the under-class, children who've yet to
fully mature (brain is still developing until 25 years), etc.

~~~
omginternets
>brain is still developing until 25 years

Careful, "developing" is very much a weasel word in these contexts. Brains are
"developing" until death. That's very much their purpose: to change as a
function of input.

Also, "punishment" is a bit of a weasel word in this context. It's quite clear
that some form of punishment is instrumental in the _proper_ development of
the brain, especially with regards to social norm. This holds even with people
in the depths of despair.

The issue is about whether we're actually punishing in a constructive way, and
whether we're _simultaneously_ extending a helping hand.

~~~
zepto
Careful, you might be being accurate but pedantic. Rather than picking at the
parent poster, why not say what you think about the issue?

~~~
omginternets
Because I wanted to address this fallacious argument that appears over and
over.

In case I wasn't clear: I think any sensible policy has to include punitive
measures, along with adequate support.

~~~
taxicabjesus
> In case I wasn't clear: I think any sensible policy has to include punitive
> measures, along with adequate support.

What sort of punitive measure is appropriate to use on someone whose doctor
turned her into an alcoholic? What sort of punitive measures are appropriate
for use on depressed people?

"Sensible policy" would acknowledge that prison usually makes people's actual
behavioral problems worse.

~~~
omginternets
>"Sensible policy" would acknowledge that prison usually makes people's actual
behavioral problems worse.

Indeed.

Prison is not the only form of punishment, and indeed it is not the most
effective (in a large, if not overwhelming, majority of cases).

I think if you stopped and caught your breath, you'd realize we're mostly in
agreement.

~~~
zepto
Nothing you wrote before this suggests any agreement. I believe you actually
are in a fair degree of agreement now, but your approach to communication
didn't convey that and you should review it if you intend to be constructive.

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the_cat_kittles
to me, the fact that david plouffe is working with zuckerberg removes an doubt
(if there was any to begin with) that mark is going to run for president. he
will be close to macron's age in 2020, though still younger. shares are
trading at 25 cents on the dollar in a market predicting his presidential run:
[https://www.predictit.org/Contract/5534/Will-
Facebook's-Mark...](https://www.predictit.org/Contract/5534/Will-
Facebook's-Mark-Zuckerberg-run-for-president-in-2020#data)

just sitting here thinking about him, im kinda torn. my first thought is that
he is too young, and has too narrow a breadth of experience. it will be
interesting to see how macron fares in france, maybe useful as a point of
comparison. zuckerberg is utterly uncharismatic, which i think is a plus- it
helps refocus things on issues and ideas and not personality. he is also
competent, and not a criminal, or criminally intentioned as far as i can tell.
i havent paid very close attention to him though, does it seem like he gives
alot of thought to morality and justice? and, of course, it also seems very
dangerous to give someone the presidency who controls so much of the media.

i will say that the prospect of having a president with an intimate
understanding of software dev would be _great_ for modernizing lots of the
agencies, which would really help i think.

what do you guys think? i hadn't really thought about it too hard till now,
but its obviously going to happen, so better to opine before the spin machines
get going.

edit: the replies here are totally kneejerk and thoughtless. it reminds me of
how people seem react to _anything_ new. i dont really give a shit about the
guy but given that its a real possibility, its worth talking about, unless you
think our current political state is good and we dont need to do anything.

~~~
bicubic
At this point we need some kind of _corporate blacklist_ of people like
zuckerberg, page, and musk. And bar them from ever running for political
office.

~~~
anigbrowl
That's ridiculous. He'd be more accountable in office than he is as CEO of the
world's largest country. I mean, be skeptical of it by all means but banning
people from running is just foolish.

~~~
bicubic
He has a tool to gauge and manipulate public perception, like the current
generation of political elite can only dream of.

He can push any agenda he wants and have it delivered in just the right way to
get the public to agree. You want a dude with that power to also be given
executive control of the country?

~~~
abraves10001
No, but banning him isn't the correct answer, either.

~~~
metaphorm
what is the correct answer? I think it's self-evident that Facebook has become
a kind of mass propaganda tool the likes of which the world has never seen
before. Do you think a constitutional republic can survive as a republic if we
allow the owners of a media platform that powerful to enter politics?

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659087
I can't help but assume Zuckerberg's motive for supporting this has nothing to
do with helping society, and everything to do with helping himself and his
future campaign (and distracting people from Facebook's role in Trump's
election).

~~~
emodendroket
Who cares what his motive is?

~~~
659087
I do, in case you missed that.

I don't think we should be giving people credit for PR "philanthropy".

~~~
emodendroket
Very few people are saints but if the data is useful or interesting then I
don't really care. I think probably most philanthropists have some motives
besides altruism.

~~~
659087
I'd prefer credit be given to the people actually doing the work. I think it's
an insult to the people at Measures for Justice for Zuckerberg to be absorbing
positive PR for their work.

~~~
LeeHarveysGrave
The credit was given to Amy Bach repeatedly throughout the article, I'm not
sure how you missed that.

One of the many funding organizations happens to be funded by Mark Zuckerberg
which makes for interest catching headlines but they're certainly not alone in
funding the project.

[https://www.measuresforjustice.org/about/overview/](https://www.measuresforjustice.org/about/overview/)

>Bach’s work has attracted the attention of the tech industry’s increasingly
activist leadership. Earlier this year, Google.org awarded Measures for
Justice a $1.5 million grant. Today, Mark Zuckerberg’s Chan Zuckerberg
Initiative announced it is giving $6.5 million to the non-profit to help it
expand into California.

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Shivetya
While I tend to start at the CATO blog I usually end up one of the sites they
point too. Libertarian sites like CATO have always been interested in the
abuse and injustice of the system. I know there are some knee jerk not fans of
CATO but you really are missing out.

to summarize our times the simple comic on this page illustrates how the
system can threaten everyone [https://www.cato.org/blog/when-our-rights-
become-crimes](https://www.cato.org/blog/when-our-rights-become-crimes)

even reason.com is good for much. still it comes down to reading all sides and
you will see a common theme even they are coming at it from different
directions. the thing to remember is government segregate us more than anyone
else and politicians play off the fears of one group versus another to
perpetuate the system.

Favorite site for police issue and how preposterous the system is.
[https://www.policemisconduct.net/](https://www.policemisconduct.net/)

~~~
anigbrowl
I like Cato because while they're libertarian they're also sincere, ie they
also stand up and take lumps for an open-borders immigration policy and call
out institutional racism and so on.

Most libertarian sites and writers, though, just offer anti-government
claptrap on top of some shallow tropes of rugged individualism. If you want to
find out how serious a libertarian is, make them tell you how they'd deal with
the problem of crime, using real-world examples of vulnerable people and
populations.

I'm in favor of governance that maximises liberty, as outlined in the
Declaration of Independence. People who say they want to abolish government
are either living in a fantasy world or aim to set up an autocratic government
of their own, sometimes both.

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supernumerary
"...the law cannot be reduced to the fact. Sadly, and in order to become more
effective, but also in order to maintain a certain form of legitimacy, there
is a tendency in law to rely on facts such as they are given, for instance, by
economists, etc. It is becoming very difficult for law to keep its singular
modes of enunciation and verification: the juridical regime of truth has
nothing to do with the algorithmic or statistical regime of truth, or even the
regime of truth in physics or in economics."

The Digital Regime of Truth: From the Algorithmic Governmentality to a New
Rule of Law

[https://iainmait.land/pdf/Rouvroy-
Stiegler.pdf](https://iainmait.land/pdf/Rouvroy-Stiegler.pdf)

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drtillberg
Kudos to the court clerks who are making the public data available. So
refreshing.

On the other hand, in Massachusetts, progressive in so many ways, the clerks
treat court databases as proprietary and unavailable to be copied. And the
data on the criminal side, practically under lock and key. It's a big
impediment even to getting started examining the nuts and bolts of the justice
system as this project has done.

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jgamman
this work was well underway before zuckerberg got involved yet the headline
implies (suggests?) that it happened _because_ of zuckerberg.

i'm torn; it smacks of getting your name associated with something good after
it gets off the ground but it is allowing something good to continue. reminds
me of VC funding mentality...

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joshuaheard
This is interesting. I hope they are developing a standardized format (XML?)
in which all local courts could publish their records. Rolling out such a
system would be difficult.

~~~
posterboy
XML? It's not very hard to parse texts for the necessarily present section
titles. Codification of legalese and logical formulas on the other hand would
not really be facilitated by xml, unless I miss something because I never used
it.

