
McDonald's holds communities together (2016) - Tomte
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/08/mcdonalds-community-centers-us-physical-social-networks
======
cdiamand
Mcdonald's was my first employer, and while I've got a ton of "somebody pooped
in the ballpit" stories, I really think the restaurant is a net good.

As a 16 year old it was awesome to work alongside other folks of varying ages
and nationalities and get to know that other "walks" of life existed. I made
friends outside of my highschool, fell in love, got burnt by the fryolator
like 8 times, and most importantly learned about hard work and the value of
money.

But I also saw veterans from the VA having their Saturday breakfast meeting. I
remember watching them sit for hours with smiles on their faces as they talked
about their time in the service. I watched regulars come in and make smalltalk
at the register. I saw the homeless get their daily meals. I saw people at
their worst, screaming about McChickens, and at their best, telling jokes and
making people smile. It really is a watering hole and I'm thankful for the
time I spent there.

~~~
coldtea
> _As a 16 year old it was awesome to work alongside other folks of varying
> ages and nationalities and get to know that other "walks" of life existed._

For a certain range of "other walks". Rich and upper middle class kids would
seldom work there for example.

Which makes compulsory army service an even better version of the "meet people
from all walks of life". It also helps with not over-dramatizing things (think
"emo" teens) and generally being lazy (think kids whose parents do everything
for them well into their 20s). And most people could do with more discipline,
not less.

Unfortunately it comes with the baggage of you know, killing people. That
said, in countries not in the offense this (being involved in combat) is
almost never the case. Though these countries, with exceptions like
Switzerland and Singapore, don't have an army service.

Perhaps an alternative, where people have to spend time with all walks of
life, privileges are minimal, and they get to do some good, like e.g. planting
trees, helping in crisis situations, etc, would be great.

~~~
BurningFrog
I did compulsory military service in my European country.

I agree that is had a big advantage for me that I met people I would _never_
have met otherwise, and would not have believed existed.

> _Unfortunately it comes with the baggage of you know, killing people_

I disagree in two ways.

1) A professional army, which is the realistic alternative, kills people just
the same, should war happen.

2) By far the biggest baggage in my view is the involuntary servitude being
forced on innocent young kids. That is not worthy a free country to me.

~~~
coldtea
> _2) By far the biggest baggage in my view is the involuntary servitude being
> forced on innocent young kids. That is not worthy a free country to me._

(1) the "innocent young kids" are 18+ grown-ass adults. Time to learn the also
have some responsibilities towards the society they live in, not just
privileges. Paying taxes alone doesn't count. This country they grew up, gone
to school, and live in only exists because some people fought hard (and many
died) to defend it.

(2) It's not "involuntary servitude" it's citizen service. Free countries
don't come for free - they're fought to create, to defend, and to keep free.

~~~
MaximumYComb
The military isn't "service" like a normal job. You are thrust into a world
where rank has an immense amount of power over your entire life and, depending
on your chain of command, you can be subject to abuses of power that are
state-sanctioned. If the platoon SGT decided he wants to single you out for
any possible reason there isn't a lot you can practically do except suffer.

I served over 10 years in the military and it was a great decision for my life
but I'm somewhat against conscription except in dire times.

~~~
ohithereyou
>You are thrust into a world where rank has an immense amount of power over
your entire life and, depending on your chain of command, you can be subject
to abuses of power that are state-sanctioned.

That sounds like a microcosm of American society as a whole.

------
WilTimSon
While it's a heartbreaking article and a nice write-up on the importance of
McDonalds as a community space, I think the other core takeaways here are
these: poor people are getting no resources to help them with their mental
health, a place to live, or even a volunteer to talk to; franchise businesses
are doing more for some of these people than the government-provided services.

Betty Ryder from this article is a big example. You can tell she has a place
to stay in at night but what about her days? It's not like days are much
friendlier to homeless people when it's cold out and the fact that the
employees are nice enough to not kick her out even though many would... it's
both life-affirming and incredibly sad. How many Bettys is the system letting
down, both in my country and the USA? How many of them depend completely on
the manager of their local McDonalds not being a jerk?

~~~
ehnto
Many small towns used to have drop-in centers, which acted like community
centers where people could spend their day. Public Houses used to fulfill this
need as well, but evolved into commercial "pubs" for drinking. Of course the
various churches often still fill in parts of the role of community centers in
many areas.

As everything gets commercialized and privatized, community can become a lower
priority and thus taking care of people who don't pay for anything is no
longer something those centers do. Eventually many towns ended up with nothing
public at all, and it sounds like McDonalds is filling the need that these
places used to do.

An interesting microcosm of this issue is public outdoor seating out the front
of businesses being introduced in some city squares. The seats are public,
provided by the city, yet because of their positioning it's easy to mistake
that they are for the business. When people think the seats are for
businesses, they don't feel comfortable utilizing the space unless they're
paying the business.

Would you go to a pub without buying a beer? Probably not, so they're no
longer Public Houses for the public, and not everywhere has a place that's
filled in the need.

Frankly, I think communities are scared of who would show up, and that's
precisely the problem. We have cordoned off and alienated our communities into
The Paying and The Poor. You don't get to be part of the community unless
you're the former.

------
reaperducer
Replace "Mcdonalds" with "Burger King" and it's the same story for the indian
reservations of the southwest. (For some reason I've never seen a McDonald's
on the rez, but there's always a Burger King.)

Bars and clubs used to be the community "third places." Then it was shopping
malls. Then it was Starbucks, until Starbucks stopped caring about its
communities and focused solely on moving customers thorough as rapidly and
profitable as possible.

Now it's McDonald's, and similar outlets. All this shows how important having
somewhere to go other than work and home is to a society.

~~~
jdnenej
I often wish local councils would fund places where you could just go to to
hang around. My uni had a bunch of these places and it would just be an air
conditioned room with lots of couches/chairs and a ping pong table.

Often I'll be sitting at home thinking "I want to go out and do something but
it's too hot and I don't want to go shopping/spend money"

Maybe these services do exist and I just don't know about them. In that case I
wish they were advertised better.

~~~
hug
Libraries, maker spaces, men's sheds, and community gardens all fill some of
the role you're talking about.

Depending on your hobbies, there are other similar things: I have a membership
to a local community motorcycle garage, where you can hang out and work on
bikes. Or just hang out.

I know you're probably _not_ talking about bars, deliberately, but a lot of
bars have pool tables and darts and you don't have to feel obliged to drink
too much while there.

~~~
jdnenej
>Libraries, maker spaces, men's sheds, and community gardens all fill some of
the role you're talking about

I see these around the city but unfortunately I'm living with my parents stuck
in the suburbs and it seems like there is nothing around.

All of the bars I have been too have been loud and packed, I feel that there
is essentially 0% chance of meeting someone there. It has only been useful if
going with a group and getting food/drinks so we can take one of the outdoor
tables.

------
anglercut
Some people in the comments express distaste for the very idea of McDonald's
being a community hub, but claiming that this sentiment is "feudalistic" is
also wrong-headed. McDonalds is tacky – not just because it's cheap. The
colors are cartoonish, the music is loud and, frankly, this is just not what
it was created for. At its best, McDonald's is, and always has been, a place
for families with children.

That said, the alternatives are also poor. Bars are small, obscene and focused
on drinking; "serious" restaurants are exclusionary and expensive; parks are,
well, open to elements.

Where I live, we have many anti-cafes. Some are highly thematic, quiet,
stylish, with comfy rooms for groups which want privacy, and time there is
cheap enough to make food joints non-competitive. Then there's libraries
(though in the US, it seems, they've come to serve another community function,
for an even lower income demographic).

The sentiment that this is "a new low" is not nearly as damnable and
undemocratic as some here try to signal. It is possible to do better than
having a gaudy corporation's food joint serve as the core for modern
community.

~~~
pedrocx486
>The colors are cartoonish, the music is loud and, frankly, this is just not
what it was created for.

Not to discredit your argument, but in some places (countries) McDonald's has
changed their "look" to something more akin to a restaurant, with less
cartoon-ish colors, quieter-ish music (or no music at all) and different
ambiance lighting to actually resemble a place a family would go. I've heard
before that in the US there's this big disparity where in one state/city McD
has a completely different "look" than others from other regions, sometimes
making it look like a completely different brand only having the trademark M
to identify it.

~~~
matwood
Yeah, I have been in McDonalds in European countries that would rival US fast
casual restaurants. Order at a counter or automated kiosk, have a seat and
food is delivered. The stores are also very clean.

~~~
grandmczeb
> Order at a counter or automated kiosk, have a seat and food is delivered.
> The stores are also very clean.

That’s how a lot of the recently renovated McDonald’s look around here too
(bay area.)

~~~
jdnenej
In Australia they seem to have made the kiosk the only option when in store.
Tbh I don't mind it as the UI on these kiosks is very well done and I can
spend my time looking through the list of available options.

~~~
mjrbrennan
Much prefer the kiosks, especially if I'm making changes/additions to the
normal stuff on the order. Plus they often let you jump the massive queue at
the counter. A lot of people seem quite averse to using them, and self-
checkouts.

~~~
jdnenej
I wasn't so much opposed to using them originally but I just had no reason to
use them since regular ordering worked fine. Now that they have removed the
regular counters I have bothered to learn the self serve ones and I feel
mostly indifferent about it.

------
retrac
In my neighbourhood in Canada, the local Tim Horton's (a sandwich/donut/coffee
fast-food chain) fills up with elderly people chatting and gossiping every
morning. I see the same folks through the window, day after day.

My mom goes to her local Tim Horton's every week to meet up with some of her
friends. It's an informal drop-in social event, basically.

They sure aren't going because the coffee's good. It's because that's where
their friends are.

------
mooreds
If this topic interests you, highly recommend the post author's book, Dignity.

[https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/566661/dignity-
by-c...](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/566661/dignity-by-chris-
arnade/)

~~~
BurningFrog
Thirded.

The book even has a McDonalds chapter.

Econlog interview for the non readers: [https://www.econtalk.org/chris-arnade-
on-dignity/](https://www.econtalk.org/chris-arnade-on-dignity/)

~~~
koboll
This comment from the above link is worth highlighting:

>Last thing: I visited the first location of the California gold rush. It was
a tourist town filled with vacation homes set aside a picturesque lake. You
know what you did not find there? Any of the families of the old gold miners
now trapped in despair or drug addiction or boarded up homes. Once the gold
dried up, those settlers moved. Unpleasant to be sure, but they did. And I
have to think they also liked living there and found it a difficult choice to
move. Just as the migrants from mid west moved during the dust bowl. But they
did it. What has changed? I have to think government policies that have
subsidized the pain of economic competition have made the tradeoff between
moving and not moving easier. Is that the world we want?

~~~
BurningFrog
Arnade talks a lot about the difference between the elite "front row", who is
at home anywhere in the world, as a member of the national or even global
college educated class, and the "back row" that is typically rooted in a
community that's very hard for them to leave. Because they depend on the
community, and it depends on them.

~~~
koboll
Sure. But that's begging the question. Clearly, the "back row" of society was
once much more mobile than it is today. What's changed?

------
bluedino
In rural areas without many internet options, McDonalds replaces Starbucks as
the laptop-toting student/professional hotspot.

A McDonald's I visit once in a while has senior citizens packing one side, and
laptop users on the other.

~~~
fennecfoxen
This statement accurately describes the I-80 corridor in between Reno and
Chicago (with an exception for the Salt Lake City area).

------
cm2012
When I lived in a poor neighborhood, McDonalds was by far the cleanest food
joint - and it also had the healthiest options available.

~~~
DoreenMichele
After being sued, McDonald's hired Temple Grandin to devise a scoring system
for meat processing plants. They are such a big buyer, they practically
single-handedly forced reform down the throats of the meat industry.

[https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/food/the-
plate/20...](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/food/the-
plate/2015/08/19/temple-grandin-killing-them-softly-at-slaughterhouses-
for-30-years/)

~~~
cm2012
Super interesting article!

------
hooande
I think the advantage of an establishment like McDonalds over a government run
community center is that McDonalds is a business that has a clear purpose.

People turn their noses up at fast food restaurants, but they are ubiquitous
and there are no political arguments over how to fund them. They have the
familiarity of a major brand and everyone has been to one and knows how it
works.

This is probably how it should be. As long as people have a safe and clean
place to meet socially, it doesn't matter where it is. And we can be confident
that the free market will keep McDonalds around pretty much no matter what
happens

~~~
progval
> they are ubiquitous and there are no political arguments over how to fund
> them

> we can be confident that the free market will keep McDonalds

So part of your argument against government-run centers is that... government-
run centers are unreliable because of people against them?

~~~
pm90
More like a certain kind of people. More likely those who have the time to
attend city council meetings and consistently vote in elections. The kind of
people who can afford to.

The business on the other hand, does not suffer at the hands of a poorly
designed political system.

------
danmg
Some people use McDonalds instead of Starbucks, or fill in the blank indy
coffee shop, as a third space. If this is truly mind blowing, you might need
to get out more.

------
damontal
Went into a McDs a while ago and noticed groups of elderly people just sitting
with coffees and talking.

Seeing this made me think of Hemingway’s A Clean Well-Lighted Place.

------
pjc50
This is the social role played in Britain by the pub, and particularly the
Wetherspoons chain: [https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/06/how-
bri...](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/06/how-britain-fell-
for-wetherspoons)

------
tempsy
Would agree that depending on the location McD feels like a “third place” for
all people and not just the poor as described here. Like I was in Hong Kong
and now Taipei and the McDs are all modern, most multi-floor, open late in
busy shopping areas, and very social places, especially at night.

Contrast that with the one in FiDi in San Francisco which always feels
dystopian to me walking in. It’s old, grimey, has a tiny seating area on the
ground level with a dark musty basement area. Seems like most office workers
avoid it like the plague and patrons are a weird mix of tourists and homeless
people. It depresses me every time I walk in.

------
gerwitz
I am thankful for the role McDonalds and other commercial third spaces play in
the lives of many, especially poor Americans.

I'm also deeply sad that this is made necessary by insufficient social
resources and poor land use. It's even nicer to have community centers and
parks that can serve this purpose without the need for purchases.

It's also nice that they provide employment for cultures without
apprenticeship opportunities but, again, a bit sad that it's necessary.

In summary: nationalize McDonalds! ;-)

------
dang
A small thread from 2018:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16319280](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16319280)

------
chrisan
I had no idea about McDonald's impact on some communities until I heard a
comedy show talking about it
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6__mmYMQbTE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6__mmYMQbTE)

I grew up eating there frequently, have since learned and avoid fast food, but
never had that sense

There's not much substance in that video (its comedy) but it opened up my mind
a bit that a place like that could have an impact

------
ishbits
Been a while since I knew anybody that worked at McDonald's... But while I was
a lifeguard in college, one girl quit the lifeguarding to get more hours at
McDonald's. They were much much better at tailoring her hours, and others
around their school schedules, kids schedulers, whatever. Perhaps that was a
localized thing, but it was always known as a good place to work around here.

------
listenallyall
2014 NYTimes article re: Korean immigrants in Queens, NY spending hours and
hours every day at a specific McDonald's.

Fighting a McDonald’s in Queens for the Right to Sit. And Sit. And Sit.
[https://nyti.ms/1iRd1V6](https://nyti.ms/1iRd1V6)

------
fulafel
Meta observation: zero (after 1 day, 150 comments) of the comments here touch
on the meat aspect of McDonalds, in another forum that might have been raised
as an ethical and/or environmental problem with McDonald's.

------
Cougher
So McDonald's has figured out a way to use a journalist to market themselves
as a down home, corn pone, local yokel "watering hole" chain to take the place
of the independent diners and pubs and coffee shops and lunch counters, where
employees used to support families with liveable wages.

I have a niece who's been a manager at McDonald's for many years now, who also
trains new managers. Despite the fact that she's been a dependable, full-time
employee of McDonald's for decades, taxpayers still have to subsidize her
family so McDonald's can keep their profit margin high and they can bulldoze
yet another unique, local business, and replace it with yet another airport-
inspired architectural monstrosity with a line of kiosks, happy to take your
order via touchscreen. It warms my heart and moves me to tears.

------
iammyIP
What a weird article beyond repair. mcdoof does not hold communitys together,
people form communities and designate places to meet on their own and they do
that totally without any mcdoof in the vicinity. Just imagine a short moment a
world without mcdoof and the communities that people form would be unaffected.
They would just meet at other cafes, bars and food joints.

------
JackPoach
This story is about communal meals rather than McD. Too bad that McDonalds or
other shitholes are the only option in some parts of the world.

------
StandardFuture
People are downvoting the people not in agreement with the sentiment of the
article.

Without downvoting can someone explain to me how we are sure this article is
not sponsored by McDonalds?

Why are we all of a sudden being so positive about a food chain that has a
long history of making things more difficult for non-industrialized food
sources that were a source of income for poor communities before McDs expanded
everywhere?

These are genuine intellectual questions, and non-emotional responses would be
appreciated.

~~~
fennecfoxen
Which downvoted comment here is supposed to have "genuine intellectual"
questions? The one stating "This is the worst of what America can be, truly
shameful to hear?" The one stating "I had no idea that this even existed?" The
one discussing "poor human garbage"? I'll give like 33% credit to "Sounds
suspiciously like McDonald's is the knife that tears families apart" because
at least this is trying to advance a meaningful argument, even if it doesn't
go beyond vague casting of suspicion.

I would be glad to entertain comments like the ones you have described. I just
don't see them here.

------
koboll
This article is, in a way, kind of sickening. One of the women quoted talks
about how her son was killed by diabetes complications. Sounds suspiciously
like McDonald's is the knife that tears families apart.

~~~
cm2012
In the neighborhoods they live in, McDonalds is often the healthiest low cost
restaurant option.

------
techstrategist
I had a vague recollection of some controversy about the author, and ended up
finding this piece:
[https://www.cjr.org/the_feature/chris_arnade_journalism_phot...](https://www.cjr.org/the_feature/chris_arnade_journalism_photography_photojournalism.php)

> Arnade’s work has raised the ire of a variety of people: photographers,
> journalists, advocates and community members. People have called his work
> exploitative, and much worse. Arnade tends to photograph mostly women; he
> has photographed them when they’re high and given them money they’ve used to
> buy drugs. He claims he’s built a relationship of trust with them. Critics,
> including some prominent photojournalists, say he exploits that trust to
> distribute photos of his subjects at their most vulnerable to a fan base of
> online lurkers.

~~~
heymijo
So I'm going to comment on this. As an outsider I gather that there is a
journalistic/photographer code that basically amounts to "don't help or get
involved with your subjects."

Well, if you follow Chris' work or have read his book, that's a pretty fucking
hard ask.

I saw this first hand when I met him outside a McDonald's in Portsmouth, Ohio.
Portsmouth is ground-zero for the opioid epidemic.

I met Chris Arnade in Portsmouth on a whim. I drove into town. Navigated to a
McDonald's and spotted him outside photographing what appeared to be a
homeless family. They had been right outside the McDonald's begging. They were
all filthy and pushing around their toddler in a shopping cart. It was late
fall and getting cold.

Once Chris finished interviewing them and taking their picture I walked up and
introduced myself. He was on his way inside to buy them some food, which we
did.

Then we went back inside together and talked. He was shook. This guy had been
all over but it was the cold and the kid that really got to Chris. He goes to
the places most journalists don't--like his first stops are children's
services and McDonald's in areas he visits. He talks to the people. He knew
already that Portsmouth's children's services was beyond overwhelmed. They
were underfunded ten years ago. Now they were barely treading water and the
opioid epidemic had flooded them. I had been a teacher so he asked my opinion
of what I saw with the toddler. Was this neglect and if so what would I do?
Teachers in Ohio are 'mandatory reporters' meaning we are legally obligated to
report anything with our students that we think might be neglect. From my
training, this was unequivocally neglect.

He was torn. The journalist's code says "do nothing."

I had a two hour drive home that night to process this. It was fucked up. When
I got home I e-mailed him my thoughts and said I thought we should alert
children's services. I didn't have the families names though.

He e-mailed back and said he had been thinking about it too and agreed. But he
didn't pass the buck to me. He made the call himself.

That night I saw Chris Arnade interact with people the rest of the world
overlooks. I saw him treat them as people. Listen to them. Worry about them,
give a few of them a meal, and ultimately wrestle with morality, ethics, and
being a human being.

Those are my words. Chris' words are here about how he grappled with his time
in Portsmouth. [1]

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/17/drugs-
opiod-...](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/17/drugs-opiod-
addiction-epidemic-portsmouth-ohio)

~~~
cm2012
Thank you for sharing this.

~~~
heymijo
You're welcome. Thank you for reading it.

------
heh2u26e
The amount of derisive comments here show just how out of touch the majority
of you people are with the poor human garbage that live in a world totally
different from yours.

~~~
Lammy
I agree with you aside from the out of place sarcastic human garbage quip. It
saddens me how every fast food closure in San Francisco is so celebrated in
"progressive" online circles, like the Market St. Burger King recently:
[https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Burger-
King-1200-Mark...](https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Burger-
King-1200-Market-St-San-Francisco-closed-14486086.php)

~~~
redfern314
While I mourn the loss of cheap and quick options in SF, I didn't lose much
sleep over that particular restaurant. I had sporadic access to the back-of-
house at that BK for various reasons (that I won't explain here) and I'm sure
it was only scraping by on health inspections. Rats, poor handling of trash,
terrible smell, etc. It was closed once in 2016 for some of the above. You
can't have a good third place when it's also a biohazard.

All this to say, however, that I agree with you that formula retail shouldn't
be demonized by SF as much as it is.

------
reedx8
This article blows it way out of proportion. I had no idea that this even
existed, and if it does as the article says, what a new low America has
reached - finding culture and community at fast food grease joints.

~~~
cm2012
Yeah, those gross low class people. I, too, enjoy claiming that things I
didn't know existed must be unimportant. Everyone knows that culture is found
at stylized bars and haute eateries.

~~~
nexuist
Right! I am shocked to see some of the rhetoric in this thread that is clearly
held by higher income folks. To believe that community and culture requires
material _things_ like fancy tables and premium meals and dressed up waiters
is....feudalistic, and the same sort of thinking that leads to golden toilets
on $20 million yachts.

Community and culture requires friendship and comradery, something the poor
hold in droves and the rich spend their entire lives trying to find. It really
must be lonely at the top.

------
reedx8
I hope you’re joking. I hope this whole article is a joke. No ones going to
fast food joints for culture and community. They won’t find any. This is the
worst of what America can be, truly shameful to hear. Wow.

~~~
nexuist
>No ones going to fast food joints for culture and community

The entire article lists several examples of this happening, and you believe
it's all false just because?

