
Estonia's e-Residency Program - jkaljundi
http://www.vice.com/read/estonias-e-residency-program-is-the-future-of-immigration
======
greenspot
Don't get the hype. Still a Delaware Inc (C Corp) is better:

\- Physical post address can be outside the US

\- With Stripe Atlas you can get the bank account for the Delaware without
visiting the US (possible with Estonia since few weeks)

\- No need to wait months to get the e-residency and to get started (biggest
bummer)

\- Way larger ecosystem of tax guys and lawyers in the US => more competition
=> cheaper

\- native language is English, so contracts are always and only in English; in
Estonia there is one piece which must stay Estonian (don't remember which one)

\- Larger ecosystem and English as main language makes it very easier to
google answers to any tax or law related questions => huge knowledge base
online, with Estonia there's just the documentation from the state

\- Default to get VC money, the Estonian entity (OÜ) is not learned and
investors are reluctant to put money in

\- Estonia follows EU law which is compared to US law extremely consumer
friendly, has strong consumer protection rights and super friendly to labor as
well => EU law is over-regulating in general

\- Cross-country relationships, like Delaware Inc is the holding and local
entities are operational are more learned with local tax consultants than with
Estonian entities => cheaper

\- Delaware Inc.: no need to disclose MDs at the beginning, Estonian entity
has full disclosure from day 1

Delaware is doing this business for decades, of course they must be better but
I expected more from Estonia's e-residency.

~~~
zutnop
Good information! As I see it from my point of view:

Timelines:

Does anyone have any actual info on the Atlas timelines/waiting lists? I
haven't seen a single success story/blog post discussing this. Atlas FAQ
states 2 weeks to get up and running (tax ID and payment acceptance), but when
asked about waiting time, their answer is "We don't have an exact timeline for
adding new users, but we'd love to chat more about your use case".

e-Residency (from application to card delivery) should take 2-3 weeks. Not
months.

Taxes:

The difference in the level of complexity of US vs Estonian tax rules can't be
described in words :). That's why you will need the huge number of tax
advisers/lawyers in US, and you'll pay them.

I'm not really sure any person, who's not a resident of US and is not living
there, would benefit from having a body with tax residency there, if there
aren't other compelling reasons. For example, you would do this if your
funding source is coming from there, because funding is better than no
funding, no matter the taxes.

Funding/holding:

US has a huge advantage here, clearly!

Transparency:

Estonia is playing for total transparency and an efficiency heaven. If you
want to do shady offshore stuff, then this is not for you. #nopanamapapers

TL;DR: Starting and new VC funded startup or a big corporation -> US. Starting
a one-man online business (and currently not a tax resident of US) -> Estonia!

~~~
greenspot
Thanks for your reply.

> Does anyone have any actual info on the Atlas timelines/waiting lists?

Without Atlas you get a Delaware instantly from one of the many registries,
Atlas is only needed if you want to get the bank account without going to US
(something which Estonia can't provide yet (I learned in another reply from
you))

> e-Residency (from application to card delivery) should take 2-3 weeks. Not
> months.

Check the forums, rarely people get it in few weeks

> The difference in the level of complexity of US vs Estonian tax rules can't
> be described in words :).

Do not agree. At the end of the day you need just _one_ tax consultant. And
one is enough also for the US. And they are easy to get in the US. And
knowledge online is massive, check this for Estonia.

Besides, taxes can get quickly complicated and messy, especially if you are a
resident in another country than your corporation. And _because_ of your local
tax regulations and not the one's from the country of the entity you need good
tax people who are familiar with your country-of-entity-and-country-of-
residency combination.

> Estonia is playing for total transparency and an efficiency heaven. If you
> want to do shady offshore stuff, then this is not for you. #nopanamapapers

Sorry but this is getting bold now. There're many totally legal use cases
where a non-disclosure at the beginning is favorable. Still you can't do
anything illegal, authorities will get you with an US corp as well, it's just
about that with on Estonian OÜ everybody can google what you are doing.

> US. Starting a one-man online business (and currently not a tax resident of
> US) -> Estonia!

Sorry have to disagree here again. If you want to start an one-man-show then
the Delaware LLC is more favorable, even easier than the C Corp. There are
enough online resources giving further explanations.

I don't want to bash your ambitions and I like that Estonia is way more
digital and advanced (or tries to) than other nations but I have still
problems to see any added value.

~~~
zutnop
> Check the forums, rarely people get it in few weeks

These posts are probably from summer of 2015 when the online ordering was
launched and the operations didn't manage to keep up with the waiting list.

> Do not agree. At the end of the day you need just one tax consultant.

If you're running a one-man show, then the sum of costs matters a lot. Simpler
framework -> less help needed -> less hours on the invoice -> money saved. I
haven't ever needed a tax consultant for my own undertakings, but then again
I'm an Estonian and I don't have the tax-residency-in-another-country angle.
But as we are talking generally, without specific examples, then let's agree
that:

1) one definitely needs to look into this subject before deciding on the best
course of action when starting a business anywhere (do a total cost of
ownership for the next 3 years, etc.),

2) this area needs modernization as more and more people are moving around the
globe every year.

> Sorry but this is getting now bold.

My intention wasn't to imply that US is for shady offshore stuff. Or that
offshore/nominee stuff needs to always be shady. I only wanted to say, that if
you happen to be the guy wanting to do shady offshore stuff, then Estonia is
not the place :).

> Sorry have to disagree here again.

Let's agree to disagree for now, and let's re-evaluate our opinions in a few
years when these new programs have had a change to make their stand.

Br, Erko

------
deftnerd
The current requirement for e-residents to have an Estonian postal address is
quite a speedbump for what they're trying to accomplish. The article mentions
several companies filling in the gap by offering virtual addresses. Does
anyone have any suggestions on a good Estonian company that provides this
service?

~~~
edko
Yes. I use LeapIn. Take into account that an address alone is not enough. If
you operate, you will also need accounting/tax-filing services. LeapIn
provides all of that in a very professional way, and with reasonable prices.

~~~
zutnop
Thank you edko for good words! We're happy to help you :)

~~~
zura
Is it possible to create a merchant account on Google Play store through your
service + Estonia e-residency? (from the unsupported country).

~~~
zutnop
Yes. More info for app developers here:
[https://www.leapin.eu/plan/appdeveloper](https://www.leapin.eu/plan/appdeveloper)

~~~
zura
Interesting, but "pay after your sales exceed $100/month" or something similar
or percent based payment would be even more interesting.

------
neodypsis
Why does Stripe not currently support businesses based in Estonia? (See:
[https://support.stripe.com/questions/what-countries-does-
str...](https://support.stripe.com/questions/what-countries-does-stripe-
support))

Regarding the need of a physical address in Estonia in order to start a
company, if their government could address that somehow, maybe Estonia could
be another option to use with the Stripe Atlas service? (See:
[https://stripe.com/atlas](https://stripe.com/atlas)).

~~~
zo1
There are already "virtual offices" being offered by Estonian physical
companies. These fulfil the requirement for having an Estonian address for
certain functions. It was in the article, near the end.

~~~
neodypsis
Thanks, I took a look to the services linked from the article. What I still
don't understand is the need of a physical address in Estonia, instead of one
in another country, if you're an e-Resident. How does it work in Delaware?
Reading the Stripe Atlas FAQ, I understand one doesn't need to live there, but
do you still require some kind of physical presence there? For example, an
office. (See:
[https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#incorporation](https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#incorporation))

~~~
markdown
In Delaware, Wyoming, etc, you need a physical registered address. There are
hundreds of businesses in the US offering such services, and it only takes a
few clicks to sign up.

The reason for them is that any registered business needs a place where it can
be served legal & tax notices, etc.

------
simonebrunozzi
I wrote about the program a few months back:
[http://brunozzi.com/2015/08/22/estonia-e-
residency/](http://brunozzi.com/2015/08/22/estonia-e-residency/)

(I hope you find it useful)

~~~
neodypsis
Thanks for sharing your experience. Have you noticed improvements in the
different issues you wrote about?

I think they have improved in those you raise in point 4.2 of your post. For
example, I tried downloading their software (from
[https://installer.id.ee](https://installer.id.ee)) and got redirected to the
Mac App Store to download from there.

~~~
simonebrunozzi
I haven't checked recently, but I hope and assume that most of the issues are
going to be fixed.

------
K_V
[https://app.cyfe.com/dashboards/195223/5587fe4e5203610228371...](https://app.cyfe.com/dashboards/195223/5587fe4e52036102283711615553)
if you are interested in statistics and current state of e-residency

------
mixedbit
In which EU country starting a company is the easiest and cheapest for people
that are not residents of this country?

~~~
ghock
UK probably. But resident requirements for starting companies are somewhat
rare these days. Getting a bank account or sorting out your taxes is another
story though.

~~~
mixedbit
I've heard that to start a company in UK, a UK bank account is required, and
it is pretty difficult for non-residents to get.

~~~
hanoz
You heard wrong. There's no requirement for a UK company, or its directors or
shareholders, to have a bank account of any kind.

------
therein
Yeah, I've applied when this was first announced but I couldn't pick it up
since they only allowed it to be picked up at their New York Embassy but I was
near Chicago at the time. Now I'm in SF and apparently they are coming to SF
on May 20th so I'll hopefully get to pick it up.

------
nordify
Until the Estonian e-resident can open a bank account remotely (likely later
this year when the new law goes into effect), the residency is mostly an
interesting curiosity, not much more.

~~~
zutnop
Until then, it makes for a perfect summer holiday location (with a 30 minute
visit to a cosy bank office).

#1 [https://www.lonelyplanet.com/travel-tips-and-
articles/best-v...](https://www.lonelyplanet.com/travel-tips-and-
articles/best-value-destinations-for-2016)

------
hosh
Sounds a bit like what happened in Stephenson's Diamond Age.

