
How NYC’s subway got wireless in the tunnels - imartin2k
https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/17/engineering-against-all-odds/
======
dvdhsu
I have always wondered why the subways in London, NYC, and Paris have no cell
signal in the tunnels. Subways in many large Asian cities (Hong Kong,
Shanghai, Seoul, Tokyo) have signal in most tunnels. From the article, it
sounds like it's because London, NYC, and Paris had subways very early - and
so didn't anticipate having to install telecom equipment in the tunnels:

> In addition to the smart city initiatives, Transit Wireless obviously is
> eyeing the tunnels as one of the most important infrastructure challenges
> going forward. Given the age of the tunnel construction, they are much
> narrower than the engineering standards used today for modern transit
> systems. In some cases, installed equipment has to fit within just a handful
> of inches of space lest a moving train rip the equipment right off the wall.

It reminds me of the Galápagos Syndrome
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gal%C3%A1pagos_syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gal%C3%A1pagos_syndrome)),
where Japan pioneers some technologies, but they're often incompatible with
the rest of the world because Japan itself is isolated (ATMs, mobile phones,
etc.).

Edit: wrong about Paris! Thanks for correcting me :)

~~~
yakovsi
I don't understand infatuation with NYC subway. Moscow subway, while being
very old, very deep and in supposed third world country had count down clocks
for 25 years, all major carriers LTE for years, very fast wifi on stations and
in tunnels for forever, doesn't even require stupid login, just connects,
imagine that. The only feeling I have for NYC subway is shame. That pride that
some people have is apparently because they never visit anywhere. Oh, and
trains are very fast, and come every 3 minutes

~~~
DoreenMichele
HN is a US-cetric forum. Americans are bad about being oblivious to the
existence of anything outside the US. New York is, by far, the largest US city
and one of the oldest. It is hugely influential here and has essentially
legendary status in the minds of many Americans. To most Americans, New York
is kind of The big city and symbolizes anything and everything urban. I am not
sure if we even have subways elsewhere (which just may be my own ignorance
showing). If we do, they wouldn't be as extensive.

~~~
totalZero
> Americans are bad about being oblivious to the existence of anything outside
> the US.

That seems like a pretty hefty generalization.

> I am not sure if we even have subways elsewhere (which just may be my own
> ignorance showing).

Maybe you should visit nearby Boston, DC, or Philadelphia.

~~~
crazygringo
The NYC subway is seen in TV shows, movies, it's part of the national
consciousness.

Have you _ever_ seen a movie or TV show which depicted the Boston, DC or
Philly metros?

Most New Yorkers you know will not have cars. Most people you know in Boston,
DC or Philly will.

~~~
pmalynin
Actually yea, I saw a Netflix show that had a scene in the subway in LA. The
show was about Hollywood writers or something, can't recall the name.

------
blfr
Here in Warsaw you get cell reception and even LTE on both lines. From what I
understand, the transit authority installed antennas along the tunnels and
then the big four wireless operators maintain their BTS at each station
directly, without any specialized underground operator.

It used to only work reliably on and near the platforms but nowadays you can
watch full HD YouTube videos all along the line with minimal issues.

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kevindong
In Chicago, every underground station AND the tunnels connecting them have had
LTE service since December 2015. Amazingly, it works annoyingly well (quite a
few people will do video Facetime chats, without headphones, for tens of
minutes while we're going through the underground portions of the network).

[http://www.transitchicago.com/4g/default.aspx](http://www.transitchicago.com/4g/default.aspx)

~~~
dzhiurgis
> without headphones

How is that different from having a chat with a friend next to you?

~~~
kevindong
I don't know how/why but those conversations are a lot quieter than the video
chats.

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
Better audio quality plus non-visual cues?

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mbell
A slightly more technical article based on Boston's system:

[http://www.masstransitmag.com/article/12242267/mobile-
commun...](http://www.masstransitmag.com/article/12242267/mobile-
communications-lessons-from-the-boston-subway-system)

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justinph
Disappointed with the content of the article; it does not cite an examples of
the engineering that was involved, just the challenges and the end result.
Missing the whole point, IMHO.

~~~
joecool1029
Same feeling for me. I clicked it thinking 'oh damn, I wonder if they'll use
leaky coax[1] like the Hudson River car tunnels did' but was sorely
disappointed.

[1] [https://www.theverge.com/2014/11/21/7260271/how-at-t-
brought...](https://www.theverge.com/2014/11/21/7260271/how-at-t-brought-
cellular-service-to-the-lincoln-tunnel)

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bob_theslob646
>The authority rewarded the contract to Transit Wireless, which now holds a
27-year license to operate cellular service in the subway system.

27 years ?!?! How is this not monopolistic?

~~~
donarb
What company would invest $300M and not expect some period of exclusivity?

~~~
kristofferR
For cell coverage in the Oslo subways the carriers simply cooperated and payed
their share of the cost (based on market share).

That seems like a much simpler solution than creating a new monopolistic and
rent-seeking company.

~~~
gaadd33
In 5 years when the market share has changed are the carriers okay with
subsidizing someone else's access while they haven't recouped their sunk
costs? If I start a new cell company in Oslo do I automatically get access for
free since I have 0 market share?

For NYC, in theory it would have been better if the infrastructure was
provided by the MTA and access to it was rented out to each carrier based on
usage.

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the_mitsuhiko
Vienna has LTE in all tunnels and stations for all carriers. How? The train
just runs next to hundreds of kilometers of antenna cables and picks up the
signal that way. Perfect reception throughout and much more stable than the
old antennas they had between stations.

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jasonlaramburu
Isn’t this title a bit misleading? It sounds like there is only service in one
‘tunnel’ on the Grand Central Shuttle. Everywhere else it’s just on the
station platform.

~~~
epc
The original title is "Engineering against all odds, or how NYC’s subway will
get wireless in the tunnels". There's wifi + LTE coverage in stations today. I
don't know if it's part of this program or something else but there's LTE
coverage from Verizon on the E from midtown down to about Penn Station.

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kchoudhu
Now if only they could get actual trains in their tunnels...

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mixmastamyk
Wifi perhaps, have no desire to hear business types yelling into phones while
on the metro.

~~~
Havoc
Much more likely to find a gansta kid that doesn't feel the need to use
headphones to listen to youtube tracks.

~~~
blackbagboys
Just fyi, "gangsta" is such a dated, anachronistic slang term that it's use is
now almost exclusively associated with resentful white Fox News types ineptly
attempting to dog-whistle "black teens who don't give me the deference I think
I deserve" (and occasionally "black athletes or entertainers I disapprove of
for nebulously defined reasons"). I'd recommend the next time you need such a
euphemistic term you go with the more timeless "urban youth".

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
Do you approve of black teens - or teens of any colour - listening to loud
music in a public place without earbuds? Is it something the rest of the world
should approve of, in your opinion?

~~~
allannienhuis
The parent comment is clearly calling out the racial overtones on the GP
comment and asking for more inclusive language. They're not talking about the
obnoxious behaviour of teens (of any color).

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
The parent comment also - unironically and explicitly - stereotyped white
people ("resentful white Fox News types").

Hypocrisy and outrage are an ugly combination.

~~~
vinay427
As far as I can tell, they only stereotyped "white Fox News types" by
describing them as "resentful," which is quite a bit different. To begin with,
it's unclear who exactly the commenter is referring to.

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bastawhiz
Maybe I missed it in the article, but where exactly do they make money? If
they're paying MTA, do they get their revenue from the cell providers? I.e.,
does Verizon, AT&T, etc. pay them to provide access to their customers?

~~~
mi100hael
Yeah I assume since it's not at all taxpayer funded, it looks something like:

1\. They build a network on their own dime in the tunnels

2\. They pay MTA "rent" for the privilege

3\. They have an exclusive contract so other carriers pay them to use their
infrastructure. AT&T, Verizon, etc. essentially operate as MVNOs in the
tunnels.

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Terretta
“Got” and “will get” are not the same title.

The NYC subway has not “got wireless in the tunnels”.

FTA:

> _Transit Wireless obviously is eyeing the tunnels as one of the most
> important infrastructure challenges going forward... Currently, the company
> is offering a pilot demonstration of tunnel service on the shuttle between
> Times Square and Grand Central Station, which launched in December._

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madengr
The article is worthless. Nothing to do with “how” it got wireless. I was
expecting a technical article.

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prettynatty
Worth mentioning, that for a long time Moscow subway already has free wi-fi
(with paid plans too). Moreover, in Moscow you can see Moscow_WiFi_Free in
almost every place of city center. Even every bus has a wi-fi hotspot.

~~~
somecontext
However, you need to receive a text message to use the free Wi-Fi, rendering
the service less useful for tourists. So it's for some valley where you have a
cell plan including SMS, but not decent data.

~~~
vinay427
I believe (but someone should confirm) that incoming calls and SMS are free in
Russia, as in most countries.

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7ewis
I often try checking my overground train times while on the London
Underground.

There's free Wi-Fi on the tube, but only in stations. So you have around 30
seconds to connect and check before getting disconnected.

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isuckatcoding
On a related note, I would love if I didn’t lose Cellular data connection when
going in tunnels in the BART. I know, what a first world problem.

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perseusprime11
Can NJ & NY Transit do something similar?

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Froyoh
We need some in Toronto, badly

~~~
Polyphonie
You already can on the TTC subway- both on station platform and some in tunnel
service. Although it only works if you're on Freedom Mobile:

[https://www.freedommobile.ca/network-and-coverage/subway-
cov...](https://www.freedommobile.ca/network-and-coverage/subway-coverage)

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anarchy8
Boston has had wireless signal in the subways for over a decade now.

~~~
lttlrck
And somehow GPS is surprisingly stable along the I93 when it goes thorough The
Big Dig. Thankfully - it’s a warren.

It might be dead reckoning working remarkably well I suppose.

~~~
macNchz
The built in navigation system in my car seems to work in tunnels, presumably
because it has data from the car itself to use for dead reckoning, but I
haven’t found that to be the case with navigation apps or standalone GPS
units.

~~~
Piskvorrr
It would require reading data out of the OBD2 - greatly useful, but a
Bluetooth dongle needs to be installed in the engine, first. Hence, quite
rare:
[https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand/issues/3204](https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand/issues/3204)

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nextstep
America is a third world country

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jamesblonde
Is this a story, seriously? I've been using 4G in the tunnels in Stockholm
since 2012, 3G before that.

~~~
adrianparsons
Interesting, I wonder why. Stockholm's subway was built in 1950[0], which is a
bit newer than NYC's. That may or may not explain why.

0:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_metro](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_metro)

~~~
moogly
The Stockholm Metro got 3G in 2005, by installing a radiating cable that acts
as an antenna[1]. Should work everywhere, really.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_feeder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_feeder)

~~~
adrianparsons
Nice. from that Wiki article:

    
    
      An alternative to using leaky feeder in underground railways is to use Distributed Antenna System (DAS). A DAS system was deployed in some New York City Subway stations by Transit Wireless to provide WiFi and mobile phone and data coverage for customers.
    

I wonder what the pros and cons are for each solution.

