
Ask HN: What's the best laptop for a programmer that isn't a MacBook Pro? - pkd
I&#x27;m soon graduating from college and I&#x27;m looking to upgrade my 4 year old laptop. I&#x27;m not looking to buy a MacBook as I run Linux full time and I intend to continue doing it. I want to know what the programmers at HN would consider to be a good machine given that:<p>- It should be under $2000, preferably closer to $1500.<p>- It should have upgradeable parts, which preferably includes the RAM<p>- Decent battery life as I&#x27;m not looking to work from a café the whole time. Anything over 6hrs is great.<p>- Good screen. But not a touch screen. Preferably matte.<p>- Discrete graphics is good, but not required.<p>- The manufacturer provides reasonably good service for its products.<p>At this moment I&#x27;m looking at Dell XPS 15 and Thinkpad T460. I&#x27;m actually looking for personal opinions because a machine is more than the sum of its parts.
======
nine_k
To me, a Thinkpad looks best. I did spend a lot of time with Thinkpads; I'd
take a Thinkpad over my current MBP any moment, as long as it has a reasonable
screen. They come with various LCDs, you have to pick one with good
resolution. Matte surface is the norm for T series, though. The keyboard is
also better than MBP's. The trackpad may not be as fancy, but the trackpoint
is better anyway :)

More than that, I'd buy me a _used_ Thinkpad for half the price of a new one.
The technology did not make any huge leaps for the last 2-3 years, but
corporations do routinely sell their older machines with very decent specs.
The only concern would be the battery. I'd buy me a 6-cell standard battery,
plus an extra battery for the optical drive bay. "6hrs" is attainable, unless
you do CPU-intensive things all the way.

Besides T series, Carbon X1 might be appealing, but it does not have
upgradeadle RAM, AFAIK.

~~~
pkd
Re: older ThinkPad, I have a T420 which is not in a very good shape
physically. The keyboard clatters a bit because the palm rest has deformed.
Apart from that it works quite fine and it has the older 7 row keyboard that I
love.

------
Hasknewbie
As a long-time Thinkpad user I would begrudgingly recommend one (begrudgingly
because QA-wise they are the shadow of their former selves).

Compared to older Thinkpads, they do not have a wobbly battery or noisy fan
any more, and you may still get a decent keyboard (or you may not, it's a bit
of a lottery).

Thinkpads now have at-least-FHD matte displays available. And it's possible to
upgrade the disk(s), RAM, and battery. The battery is now hot-swap-able, and
battery models are compatible across most models covering 2 generations. I'm
using both a T550, which I like, and X260, which is a PoS by design, and being
able to grab any extra battery and swap it mid-way through a trip without
switching the laptop off, is quite nice. Fedora is running on both without any
issue.

~~~
0x54MUR41
Thank you for posting this question, OP.

I am in the same situation. I can't decide between Lenovo Thinkpad and Dell
XPS 13/15 Developer Edition. This happened because I came across the HN
discussion and saw a lot of people who recommended between those. Then, I just
saw this discussion.

Actually, I have been deciding to choose Dell XPS over Lenovo because its
security (I am still doubt with that and need to read more). I heard that
Lenovo laptops have backdoor/SuperFish installed, is that true?

~~~
Hasknewbie
The Lenovo Ideapad series, which is consumer-oriented, did have at one point
pre-installed spyware compromising all https connections. And yes the level of
imbecility involved in including something _that_ broken was bewildering. The
Thinkpad line being enterprise-oriented is sparred that kind of issues, but
this remains a strike against Lenovo.

That being said the only things keeping me in the Thinkpad camp are the
battery life (that's truly liberating, although a competitor will probably
catch up with them) and the trackpoint (on that front no other brand comes
close, and none seem interested in closing that gap). But my experience with
the X260 is so bad (keyboard leaving marks on the screen, screen bezel leaving
marks on the palm-rest, picking up the laptop by the bottom left corner may
disconnect the underlying HDD and crash the machine -- a defect known since
the X240!) that I will probably forego Lenovo entirely in the future.

Dell XPS do have good press, but I've had multiple bad experiences with Dell
across several generations, so much so that we taunt colleagues still stuck
with that brand at the office ("so I see you've brought your hair-dryer
today!").

~~~
0x54MUR41
Thank you for reply.

It's clear now. Your explanation eases my worries. I will looking forward for
its security issue. I have googled that that issue can't be detected and
removed.

Like what you said, I read someone has same experience when he's using Dell
XPS.

------
1mike12
I use the xps 15, you can buy the cheapest version then pop it open (unlike
the xps13) and switch out the internal ram and ssd for something better.

I like the thunderbolt 3 port which allows me to connect to up to 3 external
displays and my usb peripherals, something that I cannot find with any of this
generations laptops since docks stopped being a thing

~~~
anotheryou
Have this one too.

Superb appart from a few minor downsides:

\- build in speakers are glitchy (crackle when you adjust screen brightness or
on other random occasions)

\- bluetooth is not good enough for a mouse, seems to collide with wifi usage
(this one bugs me. A dongle is quite a price to pay when you have only 2 usb
ports)

\- not the best battery life (trade-off with the graphics card I guess)

\- screen flicker on lowest brightness

\- keys rattle in the wind (not really an issue, but strange to hear really
silently _tic_ _tic_ _tic_ like a harddrive, when you just have an SSD inside.

\- screws on the back are flimsy. I found it hard to tell when they are really
tight and to get them in straight. Was a bit scary but seems to have worked
out :)

The rest is still awesome and I'd buy it again :). Good build, small, matte
display and within my budget. (I put more ram, threw the HD in to an external
enclosure and put in a good SSD)

~~~
1mike12
yeah I've heard all the problems you mentioned but mine somehow came through
without any of that stuff.

I used to get this thing where the screen would turn off because apparently
the thunderbolt 3 circuits are interfering/being interefered by the wifi. But
even this has stopped, maybe through a bios update?

Despite the sort of scary quality stories, when you get a good one, it's
really great. The touch screen I was surprised actually comes into play,
especially for demoing apps, or in tight quarters like a coach plane seat,
where you can't even get to the touchpad.

------
marssaxman
I've been using Thinkpads as full-time Linux machines for several years now.
Specifically, I've had an R61, T60, X60, T530, X301, and W520. Aside from a
rough start getting the X301 set up the way I wanted it, I've been totally
satisfied. The Thinkpads I've used have all been sturdy, straightforward
machines, easy to upgrade, and well supported by Linux drivers.

I'm currently using the W520 as my everyday development machine. It's heavy
enough that I leave it in its dock most of the time, but taking it to and from
work isn't terrible. It might grow annoying if you had to carry it long
distances in a backpack or briefcase. I can't tell you what battery life is
like because I'm either hammering the hell out of the CPU or barely touching
it, depending on what I'm doing, so lifetime varies widely.

The X301 is much slimmer and lighter. Its battery life pretty much sucks, so I
swapped the DVD player out for a second battery, and between the two it'll
stand 4+ hours of heavy use. I use this machine as my personal travel laptop,
and it is also the machine I use for DJ gigs.

~~~
crystalPalace
I also use and love Thinkpads as dedicated GNU/Linux machines. I have a T60
running Arch Linux, an X301 running Arch Linux, and a X30 running Debian. All
work marvelously despite being >10 years old in some cases. I do Android
development on the X301 which I upgraded to 8GB of RAM. My only gripe with any
of my Thinkpads is that their processors are under-powered by modern standards
but you won't notice unless you are compiling something large, running an
emulator, or running something virtualized. The best part is the price, I paid
40USD for my X301 and have had no issues for years.

~~~
applecrazy
Where did you get an X301 for $40?

~~~
crystalPalace
Got very lucky on eBay. I was casually searching for a while and eventually
saw a misspelled listing with no bidders.

------
tekklloneer
I have an XPS13 matte. It's an excellent laptop, thin, portable. There's some
touchpad weirdness but if it ever freaks out on you, put four fingers down.

$700 with 8GB RAM and 1080p screen. PCI slot, flash battery are only
upgradable parts. If you treat it as something to last you for two years, then
it's wonderful.

~~~
tekklloneer
touchpad weirdness is only on linux, btw

due to libinput. you can switch back to the old input method though

------
bradstewart
I've thoroughly enjoyed my Dell Latitude e7470.

Not as powerful as the top-end XPS, but certainly no slouch. I much prefer the
Latitude's keyboard as well. And it has Ethernet. Which is awesome. No driver
or hardware issues at all running Linux.

~~~
pkd
I've also been looking at this. I understand that the Latitude series is more
upgradable and has a better port selection and a better keyboard than the XPS
line but it comes with compromise on battery life and build quality. How's it
been holding out for you? Also how is Linux support on it out of the box?

~~~
bradstewart
It's Dell's business line, so build quality is phenomenal. It actually feels
sturdier than the XPS 15 to me (though I only played with the XPS at the
store). Just not as sleak--visible screws, serviceable hinges, that sort of
thing. As for battery life, I get 5-6 hours of real work out of it.

I installed elementaryOS 0.4 (dual boot with Windows 10) and had no issues
whatsoever. Everything worked out of the box, including the touch screen,
multi-touch/two-finger scrolling, and keyboard hot keys.

On Linux Mint however, the cursor was hidden/invisible. Everything else worked
(including the touch screen). I didn't spend much time trying to get it work,
just continued using elementary.

------
itazula
I have both a ThinkPad and a MacBook Air. I used to really like the ThinkPad
and its rugged, tough feel (behold the travel of those key presses!), but I
much prefer the Mac now. For me the MacBook Air was the best investment I ever
made. I would agree with Rob Pike, who, in
[https://usesthis.com/interviews/rob.pike/](https://usesthis.com/interviews/rob.pike/)
wrote "That said, my two-year-old 11" MacBook Air is the only piece of
computing hardware to make me happy since I can't remember when."

~~~
sharmi
What is the reason to prefer Thinkpad over MacBook and what was the reason for
change of preference?

~~~
itazula
I liked the ThinkPad because it felt solid. Now, that "solidness" feels a
little clunky, a little less refined. MS Windows doesn't help. Speaking of
OSes, macOS causes me less aggravation.

------
detaro
Thinkpads: new models are going to be presented in January, so it might be
worth waiting for CES and checking if one of the new models sounds like a
great improvement over the current ones worth waiting for.

If you do image editing you have to be careful with Thinkpads, the color space
of recent screens has been quite bad in some models. Completely fine for
coding etc though.

------
nickthemagicman
I have an top end XPS 15 and XPS 13 for personal use and a top end Macbook for
work.

The Dell XPS's have some weird Linux issues with the headphones and touchpad
using Ubuntu 16.10 which probably will get straightened out at some point as
more people use them.

Its irritating but other than that I love them.

Bout 5ish hours battery on both on Ubuntu.

~~~
totony
In my experience Dell has had bad quality control, so if you don't want to
risk sending computers back and forth to get it fixed, I'd consider buying the
Thinkpad instead.

Also note that the XPS 13 matte has a weird dynamic brightness that cannot be
deactivated and has had multiple keyboard issues reported on reddit

------
tracker1
Been using a MBP for several years now, the touchpad is second to none, and
the keyboard is as good as any other (prefer physical switch, or buckling
spring keyboards myself). Been looking at the Razer Blade Pro, which seems to
have an interesting layout.

\-- edit

The Razer Blade Pro is as costly as a rMBP, but imho more worth it. Switched
keyboard, big trackpad to the right, is a really nice layout. The screen, by
all accounts is incredible, and the raided M.2 drives are insanely fast.
Definitely outside budget, but if you keep it for 4-5 years it's possibly
worth it.

------
pawadu
When my MBP got stolen I bought a refurbished Thinkpad X220, which I still use
as my daily driver.

I got the idea from the Linux Voice magazine in UK (highly recommended!) where
many of the developers they interviewed used ancient Thinkpad X series.

~~~
pawadu
I should also add that I have seen people create amazing content on really
crappy machines and I have also seen people accomplish nothing (except a lot
of bragging) on their very (very!) expensive machines. Your laptops processing
power or battery life or screen resolution is probably not the main factor in
your success :)

------
rootme
X1 Carbon version 4 Can be 16Gb Memory.

~~~
gentleteblor
\- Dell XPS 15 (or the precision version) \- Lenovo p50 (can be had with 64gb
RAM)

~~~
fdim
+1 happy user of Dell precision 5510, ping me if you have specific questions

~~~
twic
How does the Precision 5510 compare to the XPS 15? All i've read is that the
XPS is optimised more for graphics, and the Precision for computation. Is
there any more to it than that?

~~~
deedubaya
Take this for what it's worth, as it was 10+ years ago but...

I used to work for Dell's AES -- American Enterprise Support -- in support of
the Precision line of laptops and desktops, along with servers etc.

For the most part, Latitude and Precision laptops were exactly the same
hardware. Same motherboard. Same graphics. Same CPU. Same Memory. Different
emblem on out case. Heftier price tag so you had better (American) support.

------
crisopolis
[http://www.lappylist.com/laptops/best-programming-
laptops/](http://www.lappylist.com/laptops/best-programming-laptops/)

------
wprapido
a happy lenovo thinkpad and a dell precision user here

------
cessor
Here are some thoughts.

I have a Lenovo Thinkpad w510, which I bought in 2009. I work as a software
developer, scientist and play games occasionally.

Pros:

\- Extremely Powerful.

\- i7, 4 Cores

\- Came with 4 GB RAM

\- GeForce Quatro Fx 880M

\- 1920x1080 Color Calibrated Matte Touch Screen

\- TrackPoint Style Pointer, see:
[https://xkcd.com/243/](https://xkcd.com/243/)

\- It's ugly and heavy, so less likely to be stolen

Cons:

\- Heavy

\- Battery lasts 30-40 mins, used to be 1.5 hrs.

\- Loud after a couple of years of clogged up fan

\- Price: I got a 30% academia discount, but it still was € 2600

\- Screen is a little dim

My laptop is 7 years old now, but it is still running very well. I recently
replaced the fan and it was quite easy to get replacement components. The old
model came with 4GB RAM and a 500GB HDD, which I replaced with a 500GB SSD and
16GB RAM. It looks like it will last for another couple of years.

# Usabilty

Sturdy Keyboard. Good layout, F-Keys, and dedicated Power button, Volume
controls, Home/End/Pg/Del button block. None of this "PRESS FN TO USE WINDOWS
nonsense".

Touchscreen is nice, but I rarely use it as a primary input device. The
touchscreen was unusable on Windows 7, but since Windows 8 it handles nicely.
I didn't want it when I bought it, but it came piggybackriding the Full HD
display, which I desparately wanted. Back then, most manufacturers were
switching from 4:3 to a wide screen display layout and I didn't see myself
using a 1388x<RandomNumber> display, especially because my old laptop had
1400x1050 resolution.

I can't stress enough how great the TrackPoint Stick mouse is on IBM
Notebooks. Many people really hate it (please don't start a flamewar), but I
love it, for it allows you to use the mouse without ever leaving the home row.
It can be used quite precisely, but it takes some getting used to. I once
played through the shooter "Return to Castle Wolfenstein" on a 4 hour train
ride using only the track point mouse.

# Power

\- During Software Development, I occasionally run several Windows / Ubuntu
VMs at once, Visual Studio, IntelliJ, and it still handles nicely.

\- I played Borderlands 2 for a long time on this machine. I had to reduce
some graphic effects a little, but I could play it on full res (1080p).

\- I run Photoshop and Lightroom, which can be resource hogs, but the machine
can easily handle them

# Mobility

It is really heavy and also the power supply weighs a ton. The massive battery
sticks out from the back. I bought it as a work horse, I got a work horse.
Heavy, but reliable.

# Compatibility

I ran Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows 10, Arch Linux, Windows 10, each at least
a year (except for my first Windows 10 install). Everything worked with arch,
Windows 10 has all drivers and everything works fine. Just don't try to get
into OpenGL programming when running nouveau drivers for the Nvidia Quatro FX
on Arch Linux. They produce random system lockups (reported by others on the
web) and don't support full sharder lang profiles. But other than that, you're
going to be fine.

# Longevity

Getting replacement parts was really great, and I feel I made the right
choice. My girlfriend as a MbP which she also bought around 2009/2010, which
is running really slowly these days. She can't replace the harddrive, her
battery is weak and she is stuck with 4GB RAM.

Being able to alter my hardware was a factor I didn't consider when I bought
my laptop, but it turned out to be really handy. This is something you might
want to look out for - how long the laptop will run and how you can extend its
life.

Modern slim notebooks are very limited in this regard (it's nothing specific
to the mbp), as it can be difficult to impossible to replace outdated
components. However, a multicore system, SSD and decent amount of RAM should
have you set up for the future.

# Other Recommendations

\- I recently bought a new DELL XPS 13 for my mum, who travels a lot and still
needs a bit of power. I would recommend it, but I can't say anything for its
longevity. It's mobility is unmatched, the battery lasts an eternity, and it's
quite powerfull, compared to its size.

\- I have a Lenovo W (Workstation), but I heard Lenovo T are the best. I once
used one during an internship, but its specs weren't that good, but it was
robust and reliable. I wouldn't overgeneralize but most T users I have met
were really happy with their laptops.

\- I have worked with professionals, students, friends and relatives. One
thing to me is clear: I will not buy a consumer class notebooks. These
notebooks are usually between 300 - 900 Euros, and often cheaply made.
Although there is nothing obviously wrong with them, there are odds and quirks
that I find really confusing. It will be one or the other Wifi you can't
connect to. Your bluetooth adapter will randomly switch on and off. The
battery is dying for some reason. They break and fall apart. Keys get stuck or
break off. Displays gets tinted and so on. Business line notebooks tend to do
that less often, or at least later in their lifetime. I have been using my
laptop for 7 years now and I won't (have to) replace it any time soon, given I
don't drop it or it gets stolen. The people using consumer laptops tend to
replace their notebooks every 3-4 years, which I believe is more expensive in
the end.

\- I would not just buy a modern Lenovo - or ANY other modern laptop for that
matter - straight from the internet, but I would try to get my hands on it
first (much like buying shoes: Try to put them on before buying). The
manufacturers have been playing around with the keyboard layouts and other
basic functionality, and some of these changes are a dealbreaker.

\- Others in the comments have mentioned it: The quality and service got worse
over the years. Try to get a decent service contract.

# Summary

\- I believe I would buy a ThinkPad T series, if I had to decide now

\- I value power & longevity, which is often limited to business class
notebooks

\- I'd rather pay for good quality once than for poor quality often

\- Try it out before you buy

\- Service is important

~~~
pkd
This was very helpful, thanks! I mostly concur with you on the summary and I
am definitely not going to be spending on a consumer class machine.

------
dellpluslinux89
Of the two listed: 5510 hands down.

The reason why doesn't have much to do with the specs. I've rocked Thinkpads
for years, but I just can't get behind Lenovo anymore.

Anecdote time: Couple years ago (in the T410 era) I was on an IT team looking
for new laptops for a small company. We got a guarantee from a Lenovo sales
person and someone from their support side that we could pay for NBD repairs
and they'd fix machines with Linux. When our first repair need came up, they
refused to do anything until we re-installed Windows. For a bad display (it
was all pink), nothing to do with Windows! We ended up keeping a spare,
vanilla Windows 7 HDD around for when we needed it, but it left a bad taste.

Couple that with their more recent headlines about spyware in Windows
machines, and back doors on some their mobile devices, and well... Fuck
Lenovo.

My vote for Thinkpad would be fueled by nostalgia at this point. I'd give Dell
the money for just trying and doing a damn fine job making Linux laptops
people want to use. I've come across threads where they're supporting alt
distros like Arch.

