

Visualize Success if You Want to Fail - tokenadult
http://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2011/06/08/visualize-success-if-you-want-to-fail/

======
buff-a
FTA: _One of the experiments tested whether water-deprived participants would
experience an energy drain from visualizing a glass of icy cold water (a
simple but elegant study design) and found that indeed, in even something so
basic, the brain responds as if the goal has been reached._

So positive fantasy makes you less likely to get a glass of water. What about
important goals? The ones that generate stress, and feelings of being
overwhelmed? You, know, _important_ goals?

FTA: _Ironically, shifting into positive fantasy mode is most effective when
we need to decrease our energy expenditure, when, for example, anxiety is
getting the better of us. In that case, the healthiest move is denying the
fire more fuel, and it seems that positive visualization is a commendably
effective tool for doing exactly that._

Oh. "Ironically" in the sense that our article suggests that all these
positive thinking books are wrong, when in fact, its this entire article that
is wrong and we wait till the last paragraph to make this clever little
"ironic" claim.

So, can we change the title to "Visualize success if you want to fail at
getting a glass of water, but succeed at anything remotely fucking important".

~~~
joe_the_user
Yes,

Scanning the article and as many of the links as I could for free, the only
reference I could find to what they meant by "energy" was a comment that they
meant higher heart-rate.

I think it is very plausible that someone visualizing success would experience
a lower heart beat. The question is how much evidence is there that one can
assume a higher heart rate ipso facto results in a greater likelihood of
accomplishing a given task.

Edit: and that's a big question indeed, quite possibly implying their whole
framework was meaningless...

------
gaelian
So despite the oversimplified title, the value of this article for me lies in
the last two paragraphs; which speak to me off a balance between practicing
'critical visualization' when we need to achieve and 'positive fantasy mode'
when we need to reduce stress and anxiety. Both of these activities being
useful to success.

I sometimes wonder why some people tend to feel the need to come down hard on
one extreme or the other of an issue when so often in my experience the
optimal path tends to be the middle road. I think it's because extremes are
easier to grasp and seem more definite, more solid. But I also think this can
be an indication of lazy thinking and should be called out more often.

------
firefoxman1
Tim Ferriss spoke about an old Stoic method of "Negative Visualization" that
is much more useful[1]. It helps you to avoid fear of failure by visualizing
the worst case scenario.

[1] [http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2009/06/10/the-
practica...](http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2009/06/10/the-practicality-
of-pessimism-stoicism-as-a-productivity-system/)

------
tokenadult
The forthcoming book from the same author, What Makes Your Brain Happy and Why
You Should Do the Opposite (which is what led to the submitted article), also
looks practical for HN readers.

[http://www.amazon.com/Makes-Brain-Happy-Should-
Opposite/dp/1...](http://www.amazon.com/Makes-Brain-Happy-Should-
Opposite/dp/1616144831/)

------
mathattack
Seems the key is timing. Right before taking a free throw, the visualization
helps. No benefit to worrying about misses. Three months into a six month
development? Then it's better staying up late thinking of the competition.
Save the champagne for later.

------
bdrocco
I'm not much of a self help guru, but positive visualization was often taught
to me in sports growing up. In these cases, it would seem the lower blood
pressure and heart rate would enhance focus and improve coordination. What
matters is how well you perform in actuality.

In neither sports nor work, nobody celebrates visualizing success over actual
success, people celebrate tangible accomplishments. However if you're not
motivated to achieve certain goals in the first place, positive visualization
obviously won't change that, it only gives you that warm fuzzy feeling this
article describes.

------
aik
I believe a common understanding of "visualizing goals" and the one the
researchers are talking about are two different things. The purpose of
visualizing goals is twofold:

1\. Putting your mind on the job of completing the goal. Once this is done,
the mind subconsciously spends time trying to figure out how to complete the
goal.

2\. Motivating oneself to complete a goal by energizing oneself (e.g. to
endure working long hours at your startup, you visualize yourself succeeding
through various efforts -- this in turn energizes you.)

The water glass and thirst example does not require either of these. 1.
Getting a glass of water is not a complex task your mind has to spend time
pondering, so why would it; 2. Special motivation techniques are not required
to quench thirst -- thirst is always enough motivation since it satisfies a
basic human need.

If instead you're seeking to accomplish a complex goal(e.g. endure working
long hours at your startup), and something I don't believe their study is
talking about, is the process of visualizing success to energize oneself.

Is this article arguing that visualization of goals in this latter case does
not work? What's a good alternative? It's merely a method of motivating
oneself in times of being unmotivated.

~~~
jasonkostempski
They're talking about visualizing success not goals. Like The Secret, where
you pretend like you already completed your goal of killing 3 people in a
sweat lodge and then it will happen for real.

~~~
aik
Good point -- however my comment still stands for the most part. It depends on
the purpose of you visualizing success. Visualizing yourself accomplishing
something as simple as quenching thirst is completely missing the point IMHO
(unless you believe in the magical "The Secret" silliness), per my previous
argument.

Visualizing yourself accomplishing greater things serves multiple purposes:

1\. Energizes oneself in the current moment.

2\. Opens your mind to the possibilities of accomplishing greater things. i.e.
If you think small, thinking of accomplishing big things will make you believe
you can, and hence have greater capacity and motivation to bring it to
fruition.

3\. Get your subconscious mind started on pondering how to achieve that
success.

#3 here may actually relate to the article. There may be two opposing factors
at work -- on one end your mind ponders how to achieve the success, on the
other hand your mind feels satisfied already, which prevents you from taking
action and consciously looking further into achieving the success. Which is
stronger? In the study it appears the latter is in the cases tested. However,
I highly doubt a standard answer can be derived from a few limited cases. I
would think there are just too many factors.

------
bchjam
the quoted study seems to be specifically about visualizing attainment of a
goal as opposed to successful execution of some skill, which is the context
that I'm familiar with these visualization techniques being useful (ie making
free-throws rather than winning a trophy).

------
AznHisoka
Visualizing success also isn't positive if you aren't prepared for the
emotional downfall when you don't get that success... it's like your hopes are
boosted to such high levels that anything but success will lead to depression

~~~
dredmorbius
Victor Frankl, IIRC, covers this in his book _Man's Search For Meaning_.
Frankl was a Viennese psychiatrist who wrote of his concentration camp
experiences. One of these concerned a prisoner who was positive that the war
would end (and the prisoners would be liberated) on a specific date. The date
came and went. The prisoner went with it, dying shortly afterward. The book is
a fascinating read about motivations and inner strength.

I've been pretty skeptical myself of the whole "positive visualization" crowd
and its various forms. Say, "neuro-linguistic programming".

------
jpdoctor
fta: _During the course of four experiments, Kappes and Oettingen demonstrated
that conjuring positive fantasies of success drains the energy out of
ambition._

Completely overstated. What they _actually_ demonstrated is that on their set
of selected people, conjuring positive fantasies of success drains the energy
out of ambition.

There are many types of people, and many different modes of ambition and
motivation. I wouldn't think this is rocket science, but perhaps it's an
opportunity for me to apply for big funding.

~~~
mattmanser
Ok, so how many studies is enough for you? These are repeatable experiments,
if you don't believe the results, recreate them.

~~~
nimblegorilla
This article has the opposite conclusion:
[http://www.stltoday.com/classifieds/jobs/visualize-
interview...](http://www.stltoday.com/classifieds/jobs/visualize-interview-
success/article_e28255a8-1de8-11e0-849d-0017a4a78c22.html)

I realize Tiger Woods and Michael Phelps using positive visualization is just
an anecdote, but it seems to work for them.

The first article's example of visualizing a glass of cold waters seems pretty
useless to me. Unless you are severely depressed I think most people could
muster the energy to get a cold glass of water. I'd rather see a study of
people using visualization to train for a marathon or some other task that
takes a little effort.

~~~
codex
There's a difference between visualizing the process and visualizing the
fruits of success. Personally I have the same experience as the article
reports; visualizing success saps the motivation. Instead I live vicariously
through my imagination.

------
r00fus
Part of this is harmonic with what Deepak Chopra mentions in his 7 Laws of
Spiritual Success, wherein one of the teachings is to separate your
_intentions_ from _outcomes_.

If you keep visualizing a specific outcome, odds are likely it will not occur
and you will fail... however, if you walk that back to it's core intention(s),
the possible outcomes that satisfy the intention are much greater, and
likelihood of success (and resulting fulfillment) are much greater.

------
pistabaci
[http://www.spring.org.uk/2011/01/success-why-expectations-
be...](http://www.spring.org.uk/2011/01/success-why-expectations-beat-
fantasies.php)

