
Thiel on 60 minutes - justhw
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7409142n&tag=contentBody;storyMediaBox
======
kevinalexbrown
The last line sums up most of what I disliked about this piece: "where only
big ideas flourish and school's out for everybody".

Safer tries to suggest that Thiel is advocating against college for everybody,
or any field. What I take from Thiel's stance is that college has become less
of a place of learning, and more of an inefficient credentialing mechanism.

Safer makes the interesting point that most startups will fail, but what he
seems to miss (or Thiel doesn't point out): Thiel Fellows also have a
credential of a kind, and even in failure, an extremely lucrative one.

~~~
jonny_eh
I have a degree in computer engineering and have founded a struggling startup.
My one year doing my failed startup was immensely more valuable to me than my
4 years at university. But that's just one anecdote.

~~~
Peteris
Did you apply yourself equally at both? Without making any assumptions, many
people do sail through college hardly putting enough effort. If people half-
assed startups the same way, starting work on the prototype two days before an
investor pitch, say, that wouldn't be much of a learning experience either.

In your own startup, it feels like every stroke counts, and you are doing
something you find exciting and meaningful. It's likely not that startups
offer more teaching experience, it's just that you're bound to get more out of
something you really dive into.

Having said that, most (all?) college curricula do not cater for people
intending to do startups, but they still have a lot to offer.

~~~
pbreit
That's the whole point: you _want_ to apply yourself more at your startup.

~~~
therandomguy
Not necessarily. I have seen people apply themselves well at school and also
seen people half-assing through startups.

------
jedberg
Here are some question for PG (or any of the YC partners):

How many of the YC founders are college dropouts?

How many of the YC founders that had successful (by whatever definition you'd
like) exits were college dropouts?

And lastly, how do you feel about college education in general? Do you agree
with Thiel, that it is not a good use of time and money? Is college education
a big factor when choosing companies for YC?

~~~
larrys
(I'm not YC) But, interesting and related to this entire conversation. I
forked to the article in the NY Times circa 1996 that you were quoted in (from
your profile):

<http://www.jedberg.net/article.html>

And this in particular, (1996):

"Dartmouth, one of the most academically competitive colleges in the country,
has long had a reputation for encouraging computer use by students. It now has
the new distinction of being one of the most e-mail-intensive, delivering
about 250,000 electronic messages a day to 5,000 students and 3,000 faculty
and staff members, or more than 30 messages apiece."

And, in fact, I spent many hours at Wharton in the late 70's early 80's with a
Dec-10 at the computer center and CRT's.

Had I been a college dropout of course I would have never had that opportunity
which led to so many things (computer only being one thing).

I would probably have had the same opportunity (with computers of course) at a
public college so cost didn't have to be a factor.

The situation of course depends greatly on the individual circumstances of
course and there is no question that it is applicable to people beyond the
professionals (Doctors etc.) that Thiel seems to acknowledge as having to
spend the time and money.

~~~
jonny_eh
Ya, circumstance is still important. It all depends on what you want to do and
what you have access to.

If you want to be a web or mobile developer, why do you need to go to school?
What can they offer you that free (or even cheap for pay) online courses
can't?

If on the other hand, you're interested in biotech and need access to the
equipment and knowledge only available at a university, by all means go for
it! But if/when the day comes when that kind of knowledge is ubiquitous, like
internet tech became, I hope you'll reconsider.

------
bryze
Here are some courses that changed my life: Intro to Abstract Math, Non-
Euclidean Geometry, Symbolic Logic, Music Theory, Theory of Computation,
Computer Architecture, Compilers, Computer Graphics, Animation, Performance
Evaluation, Critical Thinking, Linear Algebra, Elementary Physics. I was a
different person after completing each of these courses. I spent about 40k
total for a Bachelor's and Master's degree in Computer Science. For arming me
with needed skills and establishing a broad foundation that permits me to
think outside a narrow discipline when it's called for, I'd say it's
worthwhile. Anything that accomplishes this is good. Right now that's college.

I concede some schools are a better value, and some majors are not going to
make you financially successful. I think _that_ should be the discussion.

~~~
richcollins
The discussion we should be having is whether college is the best way to to
learn the subjects that you mentioned.

~~~
mertd
One of the kids in the video says "[In college], I was challenged in things I
am not interested in, but not in thins I am interested in." That's the whole
point. Stepping out of your comfort zone may even be the single most important
life skill. If you cherry pick the stuff you want to work on, you will never
learn something new. College is a good place to learn how to hammer through
"uninteresting" stuff.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_College is a good place to learn how to hammer through "uninteresting"
stuff._

So is your first job.

------
alexshipillo
The arguments for the Thiel Fellows to pursue this opportunity and the current
debate for the overall college "bubble" have little in common. While they
touch on a similar subject of (not) going to college, I don't see how a very
narrow fund for 20 of the brightest and most capable teens in America has
anything to do with the current status quo for the average young person who is
going to college. I think they're very separate debates and it's too bad that
the conversation has been sidetracked in this way.

~~~
Mz
Does anyone happen to know if all the fellows are American? I cannot seem to
find this info online.

Quibbling detail, I know. But I had the impression the competition was not
just limited to the U.S. (Which in no way "argues" the above point. I tried to
let it go. I really did. Curiosity killed the cat and all that.)

Thanks.

~~~
rdl
Absolutely not; a fair number of them are from Europe, and some from Asia. (I
am one of the "mentors" who get to vote on finalists, and help them out after
they're in). Out of 40, maybe 15-20 were non-US born, and maybe 10 were non-US
citizens.

~~~
Mz
Thanks!

------
hariananth
Thiel's case seems to be around 2 points: college is overpriced, and the
diploma is overrated (specifically the B.A., though this is not mentioned in
this interview). Wadhwa consistently seems to be missing the point here in his
counterarguments; Thiel is not promoting anti-intellectualism, he's simply
bringing light to these issues. Because of rising costs, we can't continue to
put education on a pedestal; it needs to be treated like any other paid good
or investment.

------
faramarz
If you've got an hour to sit back and listen to Peter debate this subject,
enjoy this video

    
    
      Debate: Too Many Kids Go To College
      For The Motion: Peter Thiel & Charles Murray
      Against The Motion: Vivek Wadhwa, Henry Bienen 
    

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VTQ-dBYSlQ>

~~~
kylebrown
And if you have an extra hour, its well worth it to listen to Thiel in this
more recent debate on the broader issue: Peter Thiel and George Gilder debate
on "The Prospects for Technology and Economic Growth"

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRrLyckg8Nc>

------
joshmlewis
I decided to not go to college as some of you know. I wrote a popular blog
piece on the subject a couple months ago.

It's something I think about a lot, but the past year since I graduated high
school, it has been an incredible experience, and I'm topping it all off with
my startup being accepted into the TechStars program this summer term.

I can almost guarantee I'll have more hands on experience, a decent savings,
and a steady paycheck in 3 years when my graduating high school class
graduates college.

If you look at my history you can tell I've worked really hard to be where I
am, I'm super focused, and I inadvertently don't have a huge social life, and
I'm ok with that. I feel in high school I concentrated on doing what I love
instead of going to parties, etc. I have a few close friends that I have fun
with and enjoy, don't get me wrong, but I feel a lot of the high school social
life is just stupid and time wasting and I spent it learning about what I do,
and when I graduated I had an internship with a startup in DC waiting on me. I
chose to work hard, do what I love, and stay focused and it is already paying
off.

I encourage people to find what they love, learn all about it, and whatever it
takes to achieve their goals is what they should do. Don't look at college as
a must have stepping stone to be successful, but instead look as it in a light
that answers the question: Will this help me achieve my life goals and dreams?

~~~
georgieporgie
_I'm super focused, and I inadvertently don't have a huge social life, and I'm
ok with that._

Let me suggest to you that you do the equivalent of a "gap year" sometime
soon. Save up a bit of money, put your stuff in storage, and head off on a
grand adventure. Travel cheaply through developing countries where even meager
savings will allow you access to interesting experiences. Alternatively,
consider something like teaching English abroad. I learned more about the
world, myself, and my own culture in a year of travel than I did in years of
college and work. It's _really_ easy to get so focused on your career track
that you lose sight of the diversity and vast experiences that life has to
offer. Incidentally, you'll meet a _ton_ of very interesting people in a few
months of hostel-hopping. :-)

------
rdl
There's a great analogy he failed to make:

Going to college is like BUYING a house. That's what the market has
overbought. Everyone needs a house, but renting is an option. Renting is being
self-educated; for the purposes of how much you learn, either can be adequate
-- renting clearly covers the low end better, but I know a lot of rich people
who rent super expensive properties, too.

Being entirely uneducated is being homeless; no one is advocating that.

~~~
nickbarnwell
A better analogy might be that going to college is more like rent-to-own. The
rates border on usurious and the terms draconian, and should at any point you
miss a payment or choose temporarily relocate, you stand to lose everything
you have paid to date.

~~~
mparlane
You can still say you learnt a lot from attending college even if you never
finished.

~~~
nickbarnwell
That's true, but doing so leaves you in the same position as any high school
graduate with regard to being able to list a degree on your resume. When
companies are able to filter based on what you have learned X years of coruses
might be a distinction, but in the present system it is only possible to have
a very coarse-grained view, and in the current system

    
    
       has_degree = lambda years, total: years == total
       has_degree(3,4)
       => False
    

Edit: Renamed method attended_college method to has_degree to better reflect
functionality.

~~~
lukatmyshu
Not necessarily true. I 'attended' college for 4.5 years, completed 140% of
the required credits to graduate but I'm technically 3 classes shy of my
degree. I left school in 2003.

Suffice it to say, I don't think has_degree can be implemented as a one-liner.

~~~
nickbarnwell
That's true of many things, and often those that can shouldn't. It does,
however, capture the sentiment of those who believe that not having a
Bachelors degree renders you an unemployable member of the lowest castes of
society.

------
christianbryant
I tested out of High School a year early and moved to Los Angeles to focus on
only what I wanted to do: Act, write, direct. I'm probably not representative
of everyone in technology without a college degree, but nevertheless, when I
realized Dream #1 wasn't happening, I tool my tech experience in retail to the
start-up world, and then settled in to a decent career, which is only getting
better with time. Part of me agrees with all this, but with a grain of salt.
It's not the path for everyone. Put me in a room of geeks and I can hold my
own; put me in a group of more well-rounded folks, fans of opera and the like
(tongue in cheek, folks), I couldn't hold my own and would be bored to death.
But that's not just due to personal taste, but a total lack of exposure.

My mother never encouraged me to go to school and I spent all my time in my
room reading SciFi and Fantasy novels. But I was very smart, and now that I
have a kid of my own, I see that same intelligence in her and, guess what, I'm
sending her to college. No matter what. She'll have opportunities to do great
things, and I wouldn't fault her for pausing college to work on a start-up
company, but I would fault her for not finishing school, even if it took a
decade or two. See, I want her to be able to sit in that room with all the
socialites and hold her own, as easily as she could in a room full of geeks.
That said, until the United States improves its view of education and makes
some radical changes, my daughter will NOT be going to college in the States.
Maybe University of Helsinki? :)

Good luck to all the Thiel Fellows. I think it is needed, for both an
_alternative_ and as a reminder to folks in the States that there is a serious
problem with the education system...

------
cyanbane
Not a big fan of that piece. There are different kinds of education... going
through one channel that people believe to be the largest and most correct,
isn't always right for everyone. However, it is a small minority of people
that can recognize that that specific path isn't right for them at the end of
High School (U.S. model). I went through 4 years of "upper education" knowing
I was going to be a coder from the start and in the end of it all I do believe
that I would have be a better programmer if I had not gone through all those
years of college and just started coding for someone else's ideas. However,
from a social standpoint, I would not trade those 4 years back for a million
bucks. They are great memories and although I feel I lost those years in hard
core coding advancement - I gained a lot of skills for navigating the world. I
was also lucky enough to get a free ride. For people looking back with $200k
in debt, I can understand their underwhelming. Different strokes for different
folks for different situations and kudos to people like Thiel who bring that
to the surface and make people critically think about the path before them
before they undertake it.

~~~
MikeCapone
The question I'm asking myself is: Is there a different way to do things that
would get you the benefits that you got out of those 4 years without the
downsides? Would it be possible to make your coding progress _and_ get the
social benefits and memories and all that kind of stuff?

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I know that there are more possibilities
out there than 1) follow the traditional US college path and 2) don't go to
college and start working full time straight away.

~~~
teeray
Part of the problem is the way information is delivered. The model of "plop
your ass in a chair and hit record as your professor speeds through
PowerPoint" is insane and mind-numbing. It breeds students that are more
interested in manufacturing the correct output for assignments than actually
understanding the material being presented.

There also tends to be a finality to grading that is disjoint with the actual
amount of information learned. When you fail a homework assignment and finally
understand what you did wrong, THAT'S where the learning actually occurs.
Unless that student is able to resubmit that homework in some other form, the
grade will never reflect that "Aha!" moment.

------
bennesvig
It's not fair to say Thiel is against education, as the professor claims. He's
all for education, just not the current institutional education.

~~~
kami8845
I was similarly angered by the conflation of `education` and `college
education`

------
codeonfire
In my opinion, investing in someone's business based on their age and not the
business validity of their product is a farce. The game is all about baiting
bigger investors by saying 'this guy's going to be the next Zuckerberg' and
sprinkling some cash on them to make their prophesy seem like it is coming
true. Then it's 'keep the game going' until you can desperately gather up
enough of the real innovators who went to college and learned their craft to
actually build the billion dollar businesses or sell all the employees to a
big corp if maybe the world changing idea part looks like it won't pan out.

All of the engineering jobs at Facebook and Paypal require a BS or MS. Why is
that if the founders were miraculously able to build those companies to what
they are today with no degree? Shouldn't they be hiring college dropouts who
skipped databases 101 so they could 'hack'?

~~~
confluence
I call it the early adopter effect.

Some people call it riding the wave.

Most VC startups begin with a kernel of a good idea (large bubbles do as
well). Now this idea is either self-supporting or supported by funding (both
due to the assets of society - not that of the founder). As you are at the
beginning of the wave, you ride it, and good people find their way towards
you. You then hire these people for below market rates (most equity is
worthless) and then use them to make you into the great success that you are.

There are no barriers to entry to becoming a "founder". You just have to be
there, and be ready. The competition is low at the beginning. Hence you get
drop outs who go on to succeed. The success is not because of themselves, but
because of the situation around them.

Own all the land in America 400 years ago, and it's worthless. Wait a few
generations and your descendents are some of the richest people on the planet.
The founders of America look like absolute geniuses today, when it was the
work of the millions who came after them that made them look like gods.

The world isn't about people. It isn't about societies. It's about complex
systems, undergoing transformations with a nearly infinite number of
variables, and where the slightest changes in any one of them can lead to
vastly different results.

1000 possible billionaires are born everyday. Most die in the third world. The
remainder come from low socioeconomic backgrounds. Cuts that to about 100. Of
those 100, few are located in places like Silicon Valley. Now you are around
10. Of these 10, some go study medicine/law/engineering and disappear from the
pool. Down to 1-2. Most of these guys fail.

You only hear about the successes - not the failures. The world is really
fucking complex. Randomness is by far the greatest factor in people's lives.

But people want reasons damn it! There must be a secret, right?

Sigh.

------
igorgue
I hate it when they say "well, there is only one Mark Zuckerberg".

Well, there are a lot of @igorgue (me) out there; I didn't go to college,
heck, I didn't even go to high school - If I had to apply to one of those
factories that require a high school degree, I couldn't. But, I do have a,
fairly successful, software development career, my business card reads "senior
software engineer".

I'm 24, I earn more than my friends my age, I'm high-middle-class - I joke
saying I'm the 2.5% instead of the 1% - I'm even foreign, and a minority. I'm
100% out of debt.

My point is, most people know they can't be Mark Zuckerberg even if they go to
college, they just want to have some success. And the average joe - myself
included - can do get it without going to college.

------
ShabbyDoo
Being "educated" != having a college degree. What was missing from the piece
was any mention of the difference. Vivek Wadhwa was portrayed as someone who
believes "you gotta have that piece 'o paper to make it in America." Also, the
piece was somewhat disingenuous in that it kept harping on the supposed risk
those dropping out were taking even though it later mentioned that most in the
program easily could re-enter college. It's like those saying that the 18
year-old LeBron James was giving up his chance for an education when he chose
the NBA over college. Perhaps Thiel could have defined opportunity loss for
the audience (sarcasm, of course).

------
cft
Interestingly, it's impossible to watch this on an iPad without paying: all it
does it it offers you to install a $4.99 60minutes app...

~~~
zuikan
watch here!
[http://download.cbsnews.com/media/2012/05/20/60_0520_droppin...](http://download.cbsnews.com/media/2012/05/20/60_0520_droppingout_1296.m4v)

your ipad can play that file

------
hessenwolf
I am reading the notes taken at his !college! class posted about a few days
ago. I am on the 6th lecture, and just realised that while thinking he was a
douche I was quoting him, so I have to take back my negative thoughts about
him and say he seems to have some good ideas and the notes are well worth a
read.

Anyway, I got the impression from the lectures so far that his problem with
college would be more due to the tendency for students to associate
'difficult' with 'valuable', and he was really railing against a handful of
so-called elite institutions.

Arguing that you should avoid any formal training is pretty daft - you can
learn a lot by yourself but self-study tends to anti-select against important-
but-boring stuff (I've recently changed from self-study back to programmed-
study and have to begrudgingly accept that I am consolidating my understanding
of certain issues only since).

------
therandomguy
Many people, especially those driven by money, don't seem to appreciate the
pursuit of knowledge in itself. Our society has evolved to offer the wonderful
opportunity for us to learn a variety of topics. That in itself is amazing.
Every bit of knowledge need not be for applying and making money from. Schools
provide a great environment to teach us a broad set of things. If the problem
is that schools overcharge, fix that. Everyone dropping out of schools is not
the solution.

------
icco
One thing a lot of people seem to be arguing is that Thiel is only advocating
certain people not go to college. Thiel in this video, and in most articles /
videos I have seen him in, advocates that the reader shouldn't go to college.
Does anyone have any links of specific quotes where he is advocating for some
people to go to college?

~~~
randomdata
Thiel, in this video, says that you should go to college if you have a good
reason to go to college - like if you want to be a professor. He only suggests
that you should think long and hard about why you are going to college, which
is logic that is pretty hard to argue against.

------
abiekatz
I wonder if the "Thiel fellowship" model is a scalable form of education?
Would some portion of bright young people benefit from pursuing their most
ambitious idea for two years?

It could be kind of like a gap year but applied to pursuing some ambitious
idea. If it works, great. If it doesn't, returning to college would still be
an option.

------
richcollins
Wadhwa seems to confuse education (and college specifically) with learning.

------
astrofinch
It's too bad Theil mostly just complains instead of actually solving the
problem by starting a group to provide an alternative credentialing mechanism.

~~~
ix_
The problem isn't a lack of alternatives, it's a lack of demand for them.

------
zuikan
direct link to video FILE:
[http://download.cbsnews.com/media/2012/05/20/60_0520_droppin...](http://download.cbsnews.com/media/2012/05/20/60_0520_droppingout_1296.m4v)

------
gee_totes
Thanks Hacker News, can I have my 13 minutes back?

