
Ask HN: losing faith in the startup where I'm employee #1 - tantrumpython
I'm very new to the startup world. A year ago, I left academia to join a startup as the first engineer employee. The skies were bright, we were going to change the world and become rich and all be happy together.<p>Now a year later, things are way more gloom. We haven't raised any money, as of today we have effectively 0 active users, and our total revenue over the past year has been ~$100.<p>Out of 3 founders, none is technical (the CTO is a very, very well connected industry veteran though), and they are all very unfocused and out of touch with certain realities (for example, they filed a patent for a silly tech idea right after incorporation and keep trying to implement that technology in products although it doesn't really solve anything).<p>During meetings, I always feel like a killjoy by attempting to be realistic and focused and reserved about the brand new idea they come up with every other week and that I need to get started on right when the meeting ends.<p>I don't feel like it'll get better, and although it was a great opportunity I think it's time for me to move on to brighter horizons.<p>The main problem is that I've grown to really like the founders on a personal level, they are really well connected so I wouldn't want them to tarnish my reputation as a young engineer completely new to the valley/startup world, and if I leave, the company will probably die off as I'm the only one writing code and making products exist (they'd probably end up paying contractors/freelancers as they can't afford to be competitive on salary or benefits).<p>I think these last few points might be the result of my inexperience with startups and that I dug myself into that hole— but any insight or advice would be very, very much appreciated.&#60;p&#62;Thanks!
======
adriand
Everybody keeps telling you that you ought to leave, but that advice isn't
terribly helpful, since it is obvious that you already know you need to do
that.

Often, many of the most difficult decisions in life are not _what_ you should
do - because deep down, you already know - but _how_ do it. This is true for
your decision right now.

A few thoughts for you on that:

1\. Irrevocably commit to doing it. Book a meeting with the founders to
discuss "something important". Or tell your significant other that you've
decided to exit by a certain date. Just do _something_ that commits you to
this course of action.

2\. Get creative about why you're leaving. Instead of leaving because the
company is a sinking ship, think of a diplomatic, but still truthful, reason
for exiting. For example, focus on what you are going to do next, and supply
that as the reason: "I'm much more interested in working on this kind of
technology/product/etc. and I want to go pursue my dream."

3\. If you can't bring yourself to tell them your decision face-to-face, put
it in writing. Email them to tell them what you've decided, and close it with,
"Can we talk?" Then hash it out with them. This is a great way to be done with
something (see #1) because once the email is sent, it's sent.

4\. Always remember that it is never as bad as you think it will be. It's just
business, they will understand your reasons if they are reasonable
businesspeople too. If they're decent individuals you'll stay on good terms
with them. They'll miss you, they'll be "disappointed", but they'll get over
it. And don't be surprised if they've already expected you to do this months
ago. It is usually obvious to employers when their employees are unhappy or
frustrated.

You already know what to do. Now go get it done! Best of luck to you.

~~~
raverbashing
I think there should be a step 0

0\. Get your CV out there

So you can start some leads and if they ask for some weeks notice, you'll have
something going (at least some leads) when you're no longer there

~~~
tptacek
Besides the fact that circulating resumes is just about the worst way to find
a new gig, I don't understand the mentality that suggests he should give
notice _before_ finding a place to land.

Find a new job, then give notice.

I've worked in this field since 1995 and am an employer at a fairly sizable
team now and I'll tell you this is pretty close to industry standard.
Competent employers do not have an expectation that they're going to get a
heads-up before you start interviewing.

~~~
larrys
"Competent employers do not have an expectation that they're going to get a
heads-up before you start interviewing."

1987\. My sister didn't know there was a root user on a Unix system. I found
out she was interviewing after seeing her resume in her home directory.

~~~
tptacek
Why were you looking in her home directory? :)

~~~
michaelcampbell
Totally tangential to the issue discussed, but years ago I was doing
interviews of college kids for dev jobs in a unix env. The recent graduates
had had some unix in school, but not much. When asked some questions about it,
one candidate let slip that he wanted to see what other people were doing so
he started looking in their home dirs.

We hired him. He was absolutely fantastic.

------
tptacek
The easiest way to commit yourself to leaving a job _and_ to navigate
explaining yourself to the company happens to also be the way you should
always be leaving jobs: by quietly interviewing for other jobs.

Find a new role somewhere else that you like and accept it. Go back to your
current team and inform them that you've enjoyed your time working with them,
but you can't pass up the new opportunity.

The only problem I think you have here is that you haven't started
interviewing yet. So, of course you feel aimless and uncertain about your next
step.

~~~
pedalpete
As a new engineer without a significant work history, how does the poster
interview and not have the hiring company contact his current company for a
reference?

~~~
tptacek
By asking them not to contact his current company. This happens all the time.

I really don't understand why there's any drama here at all. _As a matter of
course_ , you should have your next opportunity lined up before you inform
your employer that you're thinking about leaving.

------
tferris
Move on. Quick.

Three non-tech founders, after 1yr no funding, patenting in early stage ...
you are wasting time.

Don't worry about the personal relationship. Just stay polite, try to reason
your leave, why you have to move on and that you stay available for smaller
Q&A. They will try to convince you to stay and to sell the big dream (that's
their job) and maybe subtly pressure you by not liking you anymore. But that
would be another reason to move on.

Or: talk to those of the three you really like and (if your want to keep on
working with them) define new rules: find a new idea to pursue, demand equal
equity and setup a new company/legal entity with the desired ones.

~~~
loceng
Time/money. Getting patents early on is a large waste of resources, and then
really causes your path to be fixed (re: "keep trying to implement that
technology in products although it doesn't really solve anything").

------
paulsutter
The dearest investments we make are the months and years of our lives. Make
them worthwhile.

Find what is right for you, then leave to do that. Tell the founders how much
you like and respect them as you go. You don't need to carry the weight of the
company on your shoulders. Your departure may even help them move on to
something better.

------
vecter
A lot of commenters here have made great points and I share their sentiments.
Instead of repeating their good advice ad nauseam, I'd just like to add what I
think is an important point: _this is business, not personal_.

It's pretty clear that you're carrying the whole team on your back. That's
just a terrible situation to be in, and one I would never accept for myself. A
team of cofounders that doesn't face reality is pretty much as bad as it gets
in terms of startups. Not only are you the sole voice of reason, you're also
the only person doing real work and adding actual value to the company. That
may not be 100% true, but I bet it's true to a first or second order
approximation.

The truth of the matter (and the truth of life) is, _you_ need to look out for
_your_ best interests. There is no shame in doing this. It's the right thing
to do. No one else, except maybe your parents, will ever care about _your_
welfare and success. And frankly, that responsibility shouldn't fall on
anybody else but you. Everyone else on this team is looking out for their own
interests, why aren't you looking out for yours? Let me say out loud what
you've been thinking: this is a train to nowhere. You _owe_ it to yourself to
find better opportunities. Your time on this planet is incredibly precious,
don't waste it serving others for a reality you don't believe in.

It seems that you know deep in your heart what's best for you, but you're
afraid to do it because you're worried about damaging these relationships. As
other commenters have pointed out, there are ways to bow out gracefully. Are
these cofounders really the type of people who would do malice to you for
leaving for legitimate reasons? If so, that reflects much more poorly on them
than it does on you.

You sound like a nice guy, which is awesome. I've been a nice guy my entire
life, but I've learned the valuable lesson of how to say no (tactfully, of
course, but always with confidence and strength). I hope you can come around
to doing the same, because it will only benefit your life in all ways.

------
hkmurakami
Since we're all echoing the same sentiments, I'll offer some concrete, smaller
points:

 _> I wouldn't want them to tarnish my reputation as a young engineer
completely new to the valley/startup world_

You can join a more established "startup", with say, 100 or so employees, and
build a track record there.

As for a "reason for leaving", you can simply tell them that you just can't
make ends meet anymore. Money is almost always a credible motive, and is
actually more amicable than say, "your product sucks and this ship is sinking,
so I'm heading to a sexier pasture".

By the way, is it just me, or is the description of the CTO seem more
appropriate for a BizDev Officer rather than a Technology Officer? I'd be
deeply skeptical of a founding CTO who isn't involved in the product at all at
such an early stage.

------
nthj
As a young, overly-optimistic, bright-eyed developer, I'll share a lesson that
sounds obvious, but somehow sometimes isn't:

It is not my job to prop up someone else's failing business model.

It's one thing to take a lower salary in exchange for equity because you
really believe there's a shot at making a return. And it's OK to take a lower
salary to work on really interesting problems. But you aren't a co-founder,
you're an employee. You have no professional obligations beyond your 2 weeks'
notice. In this world, you've gotta fight for your wealth, health, and goals,
because nobody else will do it for you.

Good luck!

------
erikb
You probably overrate their connections, I think. People who are so
unprofessional often aren't connected to the important people in the business.
Think from the other people's point of view. If you are very productive and
have an excelent track record, why should you care about some of the millions
of people out there, who aren't?

So you are probably not losing a lot with going away, even if it's quite
likely that they won't be happy with you breaking up with them.

That said, don't think too bad about them, because they are probably just
inexperienced and don't know it better. And also don't think too high of
yourself. If you are the only coder in an IT based start-up it doesn't matter
who you are on paper. You have one of the most powerful positions. If you
can't get it going it's also your fault and probably even more then it's
their's, because you actually have the basic skill set to create software.

Another tip I want to give you on your way: Ask for a position as valuable as
your leverage in the company. If you are the only coder in a software- or web-
company you should definetely become a co-founder with a decent share of stock
and decision making capabilities, maybe also CTO (C<x>O often is more of a
management job the moment you get more employees, so it's not required that an
engineer does that. Someone with a management or business background might be
better suited, even if the <x> is a T).

------
forgottenpaswrd
Three founders and one engineer that creates products?

Move on as fast as you can. Is not that you can't partner with some idea guy
but three of them is too unbalanced. Doing anything takes an enormous amount
of work, you can't change the idea every week(well, yes you can if you can
reuse what you had already done, or if changing means less work or satisfying
your customers much better, but usually you should not).

Being connected is nothing today, everybody is "connected" these days with
facebook and twitter if you can't get users your product is not great. I
believe that by connected you mean that they spend all time in parties
"networking" while you code and they tell you how useful it is (it is not if
you don't have users, they are not so well "connected").

I like (and love) a lot of people in the personal level, but some of them I
will never do business with(being great at parties in some cases means that
they are not serious enough for real work).

You don't need to burn bridges, but you need to be a grown up man, take
decisions(decide means cutting options) and stand by it. You should be as
clear as possible about the real reasons you leave and let them the
opportunity to do something about it, if the reasons does not change then
leave.

~~~
forgottenpaswrd
PD: If someone that tells you that he likes you, suddenly hates you while you
tell them you take a different path than them, then they never liked you in
the first place. They were just using social engineering to get what they
wanted from you.

~~~
lxt
I can't vote the parent up enough. Wise, wise words. Don't let yourself be
manipulated.

------
jroseattle
Sometimes the wisdom of the crowds is a bit circumspect. Not in this case --
listen to what most everyone here is saying.

As for advice, make it a business decision. Take the emotion out of it, look
at it objectively (as much as you can), then take action.

Don't be concerned with personal relationships with the "founders". They're
presently benefiting from your participation much more so than you are of
theirs. If they're worthy of your friendship, they will understand when you
depart. If they react badly, they were never good relationships to begin with.

As for your reputation, just be productive. Startups all over the valley need
productive engineers; they do not need more people pontificating about others.
If you do that, your reputation will take care of itself.

------
ww520
Not to be harsh but the reality is that the three non-technical founders are
not doing their jobs. Since they are not creating the product, their jobs
would be to: fund raising, marketing, sales, and biz dev. But none of those
happened after a year. As a non-founder your equity portion won't be great but
you are the only one building the product; I'm not sure if the salary is worth
it to stay on. It's best you chalk it up as a learning experience and move on.

~~~
benwerd
A thousand times this. As an engineer, you're one of the few people in the
company whose work can be quantified. It sounds like the non-technical
founders don't have any metrics for success that they're being held against -
given the batshitness of the business, this will probably work out badly for
you. Go go go.

------
to_jon
This may sound counter intuitive, but you have far more to lose by staying
than by moving on. In fact you face a couple significant risks that increase
the longer you're there.

First, the founders may sense your lack of "enthusiasm" and realize that your
chances of leaving are high. To protect the company's reputation from the
public vote of no confidence implicit in your quitting, they may decide to
take the initiative and fire you. Yes, this type of behavior is underhanded
but it's more common than you may think. Imagine trying to explain to a hiring
manager that you were fired because you planned to quit. Unfortunately, no one
will believe you.

Second, you're part of a sinking ship and as the tech lead there's no way to
separate your reputation from it. The longer you stay, the longer you expose
your personal brand to the failure at large.

My last advice is the most important because it should guide all of your
career decisions. Do not let fear suppress your better judgement. Step back
from the reasons you listed for staying at the company and you'll realize that
fear is the commonality. Fear isn't your friend. It will mislead you.

~~~
tatsuke95
Good advice, less:

> _"Imagine trying to explain to a hiring manager that you were fired because
> you planned to quit. Unfortunately, no one will believe you."_

If you are a decent person who can solve problems in the real world, you don't
have to worry about explaining yourself to anyone. Ever.

~~~
cwilbur
A beautiful theory.

However, the bean counters and glad-handers who stand between you and a
paycheck often ask difficult but irrelevant question, and if you don't worry
about explaining yourself to them, you make it much harder to get that
paycheck.

You get a lot farther with the ability to solve real-world problems _and_ MBA-
appropriate skills than with just the ability to solve real-world problems, if
only because there is such high demand for technically inclined people with
people skills and business skills.

------
tehjonz
I've been in almost the exact same place before, although I didn't have a
community to turn to for advice. Count yourself lucky or blessed, pal. Most of
the replies you've received are the kind of advice I wish I would have
received at the time - with the same quantity and consistency.

Then again, I wouldn't have listened. I was so certain that I was doing the
right thing by "following my passion", when I was actually being a dumbkopf.
Don't be like me - don't be a dumbkopf.

1.) A CTO that can't write code in an early stage start-up is not a CTO.
Period. We had a UI/UX/UXYZ "expert" that couldn't write a single line of
HTML... in an early stage startup? - fail.

2.) Using personal feelings to make business decisions are a red flag. It's
funny that in the same paragraph you mention that they couldn't afford new
talent. This sounds like a textbook case of somebody being taken advantage of.
You are new to this business, they've sold you on their idea but they can't
sell the dream to other folks. Doesn't sound good, my friend. Sounds like
pimping.

3.) If your leaving means death for the company, then you ARE the company and
should own a LOT of the company. Or should be paid market rates. If they
can't/won't pay market rates, then you should be a co-founder. And you should
own a LOT of the company.

4.) There will always be more opportunities. Being the next Zuck or Google is
the same thing as winning the lottery. For the rest of us (back on planet
earth), it's hard work and having good business sense. There are no secrets.

Best of luck to you! Keep everyone posted on what you decide.

------
fatalerrorx3
Wow. This sounds exactly like me and my situation. Exactly a year ago at the
beginning of May I began working on my first startup, after doing freelance
web development for several years.

The startup was founded by 2 non-tech guys, I am employee #1 (tech guy,
engineer), developing everything from the ground up. The product vision is not
focused enough and is causing us to go into 100 different directions. 1 of the
co-founders is a doctor and the other is a business guy with some very good
connections (very similar to you).

The problem is that based on consumer feedback we're constantly changing, but
we're trying to encompass EVERYTHING that EVERY tester has asked for. My
personal feel is that although it's nice to know exactly everything that
everyone wants, attempting to do everything is an EXTREMELY BAD IDEA. The
saying "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind. We can't be good at
everything, so let's focus on 2 or 3 things that will have the MOST IMPACT and
that we can be REALLY GOOD at to get CONSUMERS HAPPY about our product.
Consumers WON'T BE HAPPY with 100 features that work HALF ASSED. This has been
what I've been trying to explain for a long time now.

Over the course of the year, we've had a graphic designer who was with us for
several months but couldn't handle it anymore so he left. Prior to me they had
2 other people; a programmer and a designer, and both of them have since left.
The reason is clearly the lack of focus on what really matters.

The problem is that I am being paid a decent salary, and although I have some
equity in the company, I feel like I don't really have much of a say (I have
tried voicing my opinions but they've often gone ignored). I usually can't get
a word in edge-wise anyhow even if I wanted to

~~~
clueless123
Sometimes you have to look at it like this: It is a Job, It pays the bills,
unless something better paying shows up, I a sticking with it. At the end of
the day, money in the bank is the best way to achieve the freedom to do what
you really want to do. (when ever you figure that out)

------
rmATinnovafy
These people seem to focus on hitting the startup lottery and not on building
a business. And that is really, really being hard on you.

Would you buy stock in a business like the one you are working in?

If the answer is no, why are you still there?

PS. If you want to talk about it, just email me. Address in on profile.

------
moocow01
Cut your losses and move on. You will only have so many opportunities to play
the startup game in life... and probably many less than you anticipate.

They may be very likeable and connected but they are not performing at their
job. They need to be driving growth by bringing in revenue, leads, funding,
etc. as well as strengthening the business by reducing vulnerabilities (like
having only 1 person that knows the technicalities of the product). If they
are screwed after you leave that is more their fault than it is yours - that
is a lack of management foresight.

Just be straightforward but nice with them - you won't be burning any bridges.

------
volaski
If that CTO guy is actually as well connected as you say he is, they will not
fail because of lack of technical person. They will be able to find one
immediately. At least don't worry about this problem.

------
ericmsimons
There are a lot of great comments here already, but in the event that you'd
like to chat with someone who went through EXACTLY this, feel free to shoot me
and email at eric.classconnect@gmail.com :)

------
chanon
I think it's clear that you don't need convincing that you should move on
(which a lot of comments here seem to be trying to do).

Your problem as you say is you want to keep a good relationship with the
founders. While others say there is no value in that because of their past
performance, I think if it's not necessary to burn bridges then why do it? Who
knows, they could provide a good reference for a great opportunity for you in
the future.

So, my advice for you in this case (as an employer) is that:

\- Give advance notice that you are thinking of leaving. 2 months would be a
good amount if you can. That should give them enough time to find a
replacement. It doesn't have to be 2 months though, but the earlier the
better. The worst thing you can do is keep all the frustration inside until
you can't take it anymore and then have to leave right then. Rather, you
should talk to them about it .. just telling them that you are thinking of
leaving might be the kick in their backside to get their shit together. (But
I'm not saying that is the end goal for you, the end goal is to get out with
relationships intact.)

\- Just tell them that you want a change, want to try something else, find a
new opportunity. They should understand that. They shouldn't expect you to
give them X years of your life as if they owned you.

If you do this, then there is no cause for them to be angry at you.

~~~
jroseattle
> Give advance notice...2 months

As an employer, I'd love this type of notice. As an employee, I'd be short-
circuiting my control of the situation.

The key to the conversation is that he is an employee, not a founder. This
sounds like a situation where the employee is expected to act as a founder in
_some_ situations, but back down in others. Frankly, that's a bad situation in
which the employee never succeeds.

While the advance-notice advice is worthy of good people, I have serious
doubts about the founders for the OP's entity. I'd personally be prepared to
assume that any notion of I-am-outta-here will lead to a burned bridge.

------
easp
A few suggestions, not necessarily mutually exclusive:

1\. Start doing what you want to do at work. Don't waste time in BS meetings,
go talk to potential customers or partners yourself, build what you think is
interesting/valuable.

2\. Change things up outside of work, go to lectures, meetups, start reading
different blogs, whatever.

3\. Start applying for jobs and arranging informational interviews.

In all three, a big part of the point is to change things, and seeing what
happens, at the very least, you'll be getting new perspectives, and after a
while, you'll find that you are ready to make the big change and find another
job.

This is basically what I went through over the past year. I knew I needed to
leave, but couldn't quite find a way to do so. It took a while, but my last
day is in two weeks. Ironically, things are looking better at work than they
have in 18 months, in part because I felt free to push and try things in a way
I didn't before. I'm still going though. Not exactly sure what I'm going to do
in the long run, but I'm much more comfortable with my ability to make a
reasonable living as a result of changing my perspective.

------
ronik
It is important to be objective about your own career and not be emotional
about your friendship with them. If they are good at heart, they will
understand you eventually. If not, you are wasting your time anyway. You want
to be loyal to folks, but this is a situation where you have to be loyal to
yourself as well.

This is part of the learning curve we all go through and it seems you have
learnt some important lessons already. I have a lot of senior friends that I
didn't get along so well with professionally (because of our different styles
of working) but on the personal level we still meet for lunch although we
don't even work at the same company any longer.

It's ok... if I were you I'd go find another job and then just tell these guys
that an excellent opportunity has come by. Perhaps give them a 4 week notice
instead of the regular 2 weeks so they can find someone. I don't think you owe
them much more than that.

------
yesimahuman
I was in a similar situation two years ago. There is no one to blame but our
lack of experience. We did the same thing: no growth? let's code up some
random new feature (which makes you feel like you are actually doing
something, but you aren't). I also don't think we made a great duo, but I'm
still friends with my co-founder and we both agree we were just wasting time
and it was best to leave (yours will realize that soon enough).

My advice: leave. Yes, you will wonder about the "what-ifs", but you have a
bright future ahead. For example, I started a new company a few months ago
with a friend, and we have already grown way more in a few months than my last
company did in two years, and we are growing month after month (despite $0 in
funding and two YC rejections :)).

You don't need investors. Maybe find a job, try some ideas on the side, and
charge for them. You might be surprised what you are capable of.

------
Aqueous
Just be honest with them. You don't have a shot at solving any of these
problems unless you tell them what's wrong. This stuck out:

'During meetings, I always feel like a killjoy by attempting to be realistic
and focused and reserved about the brand new idea they come up with every
other week and that I need to get started on right when the meeting ends.'

I have a non-technical co-founder who does the same thing. If they don't even
bother to become the slightest bit technical (which would help them understand
how writing software works, and how long it actually takes) then they aren't
co-founding material. You need to be firm with them. "No, we need to remain
focused on building up the feature set we already have, and making it perfect.
All the bugs in the existing code need to be fixed before we start adding
features."

------
mzarate06
_During meetings, I always feel like a killjoy by attempting to be realistic
... about the brand new idea they come up with every other week and that I
need to get started on right when the meeting ends._

I tire from that very thing, very quickly. I've worked with too many "idea"
guys that always want to see 10 ideas started, vs. 1 completed and executed
really well. Maybe they're trying to find that 1 great idea by trying out
many, but a lot of times I see startups start one thing without finishing
another. In the end, after XYZ time frame, the company really doesn't have 1
solid feature to show for it, only multiple half ass ones.

What's worse, at least from what I've experienced, is that a lot of those
ideas or features are secondary, or tertiary, with regard to what the core
product should really support.

------
smtf
Start cultivating offers now. If your current pay checks are still clearing
you don't have to move in great haste. If you get an attractive offer: be as
professional as you can but move on; offer to work hourly, if you can muster
it, and on board new employees / contractors. Give as much notice as you think
is prudent considering your new employers. If you were still enthused my
advice would be different; I've spent enough time in start-ups without
direction to know how frustrating and exhausting it can be. Don't languish for
the sake of a broken organisation, find a healthy one and move on. I
sympathise with caring about the welfare of your current employers but you
can't do their job and yours at the same time.

------
kdwinnell
As you look to what's next, don't forget to look at what patterns you may have
that are contributing to the environment so you don't repeat them.

The line that jumped out at me was the "killjoy" one. You may be the only
voice of reason in the room, or collectively you may all be trying to solve
essential issues. Measure the new ideas against the goals of your company, and
then help prioritize. Make sure you understand the goal and intent, make sure
they understand the cost of pursuing (the stuff that gets abandoned or pushed
down) and then make the right move going forward.

I think this will help you in the current situation as well as your new one if
you decide to move on.

------
dchichkov
Find a new place. And either move on, or try renegotiating your position at
your current company. This post might help:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2949323>

------
cwilbur
I have two experiences here that may be relevant.

Some years ago I was in a comparable position, only I was working full-time at
a salaried job when I was approached to be a partner in a new startup. The
elevator pitch and cocktail-napkin numbers were engaging, and it looked like
we could bootstrap it with resources we already had on hand and be profitable
within a year.

Except that six months in, we had no business plan. Now, I am not an MBA type,
and I think that the value of the business plan is more that it's a self-
check: if you say "Based on our projections, we should have 100,000 users and
be realizing $10,000 a month in subscription fees and ad revenues by December
2012," and in December you have 35 users you know something is wrong; and if
in December you see $1.2 million in revenues then you know you're doing
something right and you'd better start doing more of it quickly.

Without a business plan on paper, we had no way of gauging even that the
founders were on the same page as to what "success" meant, let alone whether
we were succeeding or not. After six months of asking for this, I said, "I
can't work a second full-time job on spec, and my business questions are not
being taken seriously because I'm just the guy who knows web servers and
streaming video." And I walked.

You might try an approach like that: pick up a basic business textbook and ask
questions. When do they expect to see revenues? Do they have an exit strategy
where they make themselves attractive to a large company and get bought for
kerjillions of dollars? Do they have a non-exit strategy where they bootstrap
themselves to profitability? If they can't answer that question, get out
before the paychecks start bouncing.

My other experience was with a startup. It was five non-technical people -
three who had lots of experience in the problem domain, one who had experience
in business development, and one who had experience in data processing
software development for insurance companies and bill collectors. And the goal
of the startup was to put a certain experience online. The three experts in
the problem domain were full of (and I say this without irony) excellent ideas
as to what the software should do.

The principal structural problem that we ran into over and over again is that
the only partner (and thus the only voice that was taken seriously) who had
any experience in software development came from a domain where the business
analysts would issue a mostly-clear set of rules and it was the job of the
programmers to turn that into COBOL. So their first approach was to hire a
consulting company to build the product for them. That was an almost
completely unmitigated disaster: the only real benefit was that it let them
get a product off the ground and start realizing some revenue. This was offset
by the fast realization that the consulting company was milking them for all
they were worth because the consulting company didn't expect them to last,
which then led to a very acrimonious parting of the ways followed by lawsuits.
And then they hired their own developers.

So the pattern we fell into, which you will probably find strangely familiar,
was that the five partners would gather in the conference room once a month
and come out with with two or three good solid ideas. They would then instruct
the developers (two coders, a web designer, and a database analyst) to make it
happen. We would start on it, hampered by the horrendous infrastructure that
the consultants had left (but there was no time to address technical debt). We
would get maybe halfway through implementing one of the ideas, while putting
out fires and serving as tier 3 tech support, and then the next monthly
meeting would happen.

That was the job where I learned to give development estimates in person-days
on task, rather than in calendar days, and where I picked up the habit of
automatically appending "assuming you don't change the requirements in the
interim, because that will make it take longer" to estimates.

So what happened there? Well, I was the first developer to leave. Within a
year, all of the developers had left, the partner in charge of software
development had also left (no doubt with a massive golden handshake for her
efforts) and the company had been folded into one of the CEO-partner's other
companies, possibly with the recognition that it would never be fully
profitable.

Based on my experience: if there is no technical person competent in the
development style you're working in among the partners, if the only technical
people are employees rather than partners, stay away. There may be exceptions,
but generally partners have a lot more credibility with other partners than
employees do, and if you as an employee are saying "this will take X person-
days to implement and will not be profitable" and a partner is saying "this
will be trivial to implement and I read in Infoworld about a company that did
this and made ten billion dollars a day!" then the partner will be believed
and you will not. No matter how many times you are right and that partner (and
Infoworld) are wrong.

Summary of the summary: no technical partner means you shouldn't have signed
on in the first place; no path to profitability and no exit strategy means you
should get out while you can.

------
mcgwiz
The thing they will (should) appreciate the most, and the thing that will keep
the bridge most intact after leaving, is to be generous in the advancement of
your notice. This honors the trust they put in you as an employee with
significant responsibilities by affording them the valuable time to absorb the
impact to their company in a managed way. Since two weeks is customary,
something on the order of 4 weeks would be in good faith of the trust between
you.

Some might say by giving extra notice you risk "showing your hand" and being
fired prematurely. However, if you have a good personal relationship, this is
unlikely to happen.

------
jvrossb
The CTO is non-technical? How does that work?

~~~
smtf
Judging by the details of the post I'd say it does not.

------
seclorum
Why don't you have any users? One thing you must always do in startup land is
focus on the users of your company.

IF you truly have none, well. No great loss if you bail.

But if you could have more, just haven't actually focused on the user
sufficiently well to have a fair few of them, then I suggest you: Focus On The
User.

Startup-dilemna can be overwhelming, especially when its as catastrophic as
your situation sounds, but that is why it is good indeed to have a few
faithful rules to guide yourself by. If you're a tech guy, you love what
you're doing, really, then you must have happy users somewhere.

Or?

------
balajiviswanath
If you get a competitive pay, try to hang on more and see if you can turn
around the company. Tell the founders about your concerns and see if they will
let you get added as a co-founder (so that you benefit when the company
finally turns around).

However, if you get a lot lower pay than what you get in a bigco, you need to
talk frank with your founders. More than the revenue and lack of funding, it
is the Zero active users that concerns me. Momentum is the key in a startup
and you guys seem to have lost it. When you are in a hole, stop digging.

------
hifi
I've been in the same position myself (college -> startup) and without reading
the other comments I give you two questions to think about:

1\. Are you making good progress on a personal level? (meaning learning the
things you want to learn at a good pace.)

2\. Does it have a negative impact on your financials?

I kept going until I was 15k € in debt and the startup was closed down. I
don't regret it because I learnt so much. It took me less than 6 months to pay
back my debt and I'm glad I didn't quit when things looked bad.

------
Omnipresent
> "and if I leave, the company will probably die off as I'm the only one
> writing code and making products exist"

Are you certain that the founders share the same sentiment? If you don't
personally believe in the vision of the startup/idea then just leave. Don't
stay there to be the guy that just writes code. They can get anyone to write
the code. To make it easier on you: be a little selfish here (its okay!). Its
a business, not social work.

------
cera
Almost every startup has gloomy periods, and often more than one. The patent
is a really bad signal IMHO (I did this once). It's great that you value your
relationship, and you should try to keep it that way if you can. They will
need some help transitioning you out of the company, and so you should give
them more than the usual 2 weeks notice IMHO. I gave 3 months notice once.
Best of luck

------
spidaman
Maintaining the good graces and friendship with the founders and moving on
aren't mutually exclusive. They're not stupid, just level with them: the
traction achieved isn't what you aspired to and you want to work on something
else. Be assured that they respect the technical contributions you've made, if
they can't respect your aspirations than their good graces aren't worth
worrying about.

------
sparknlaunch12
After one year you have zero active users and only $100 revenue. You have a
"well connected cto" but disconnected from reality? Surely this tells you
everything you need to know?

You guys need a serious evaluation of the business and make a decision to fix
things or shut it down. A year suggests you have missed the obvious questions
about your customers.

If you are the only one with these thoughts may be time to move on.

------
accomplice
I have been in similar situations with very distracted CEO's who just thought
of everyones input as opinions, or content to digest. Big problem, but
solvable if you get another engineer to help make cases with you and help
mentor (without explicitly stating that as a goal of course) the other
founders a bit on how to run a tech startup, as opposed to a marketing effort.

You can get another engineer!

------
wyclif
Haven't you answered your own question?

~ No users ~ No revenue ~ No investment ~ No developer founders

Sounds like you know what to do, but you're still in a state of denial.

~~~
its_so_on
Because he's employee #1. I bet he's thinking there's some great way to come
out on top, like "Tell them that you now require 40% equity to continue, 55%
of voting rights, immediate cliff, and that if this is more than they can do
you must now pursue other options". Well, sorry, there's nothing like that
that you can do and 'come out on top.' Just cut your losses. :(

~~~
cannibal
40% of nothing is nothing.

------
reinder
Get out, waste of time. They would be well connected if they knew how to use
their network. Apparently they don't, because none of their connections was
good for business. As few put in the comments, don't take the entire weight of
the business on your shoulders. You're probably in your twenties, the most
fruitful and effective time of your life. Don't waste it.

------
balajiviswanath
Out of curiosity, what do those 3 founders really do? If they don't develop
products or sell the products or get the funding they have no business to be
sitting as founders. Many non-technical founders have the weird notion that
ideas matter a lot. However, unless you develop & sell them - the ideas are
worth zero. So, their contribution is effectively 0.

------
tluyben2
Many have said it already, but you need to move on. You are wasting your
precious time there. Don't worry too much about any tarnish; that doesn't even
work for politicians and high spec founders (Groupon).

(I do find it weird you have a non technical CTO; industry veteran or not, his
CTO badge is only a placeholder which is not good for a tech product company
IMHO)

------
Dev007
At least you have one year experience. That's making your position stronger.
Do they pay you a salary which helps you pay the bills. If so, Stay. Try to
bring new idea's to change their looks on the product. The Startup way is not
the easiest way but be creative and create somethng it works, solve problems.
(djfashion777 ad gmail dot com)

------
factorialboy
It's appreciable that you have this loyalty towards the founders. However your
first loyalty is to yourself and to your interests.

Communicate with them, tell them why you think things aren't working, and
propose ways the startup can make improvements.

If you encounter too much inertia and you know things aren't going to get
better, find yourself something better to do.

------
parham
I sounds like you're the one with the most to lose, and on top of that a none
technical CTO?! you sound like you should be the CTO as you're the one
developing.

My opinion you should move on, end of the day it's your life you shouldn't
waste it with unfocused individuals friends or otherwise, they're probably
treating the star-up as a hobby.

------
lollancf37
From what you say, I don't think that you communicated all that you've said to
your bosses. If what you say are facts and not your opinions, I think that you
should go to see them and tell them what you think, what you want. It's okay
to be involved with people at work, it's not okay to use this as an excuse.

~~~
lollancf37
Good luck

------
hnwh
I was in a similar situation in a 2-person startup. My advice, GTFO ASAP.
YOu'll find more opportunities, your reputation will be fine. You have now
just wasted one irretrievable year of your life. Time is the most valuable
commodity which you can NEVEER get back. Don't waste anymore. GTFO now

------
marcosvm
I'd say go before it's too late. Being there, done that. After 3 years I
realized that the founders wouldn't change their M.O. And that was after
writing 3 products, developing the team, deploying the thing. There are plenty
of good start-ups to work. Take that lesson as lesson learned and move on.

------
QuarkSpark
If you are in a team where you are the only person in charge of the software,
right from the design->implementation->final shipping of the product, you need
to have complete & utter faith on the people who came up with the idea in the
first place. And also use a bit of common sense from your side and ask
yourself why you think this product will work in the market?. You are going to
spend countless hours away from family, slogging on developing a state-of-the-
art product which's going to be discarded in a couple of months/years time.
Not a good way of investing precious time, which might have well been spent in
academia.

I empathize with your situation.Long ago, I too, was stuck in a similar
environment. The concept maker was undoubtedly brilliant but when it came to
the software specs, he was at a complete loss. I was the only one in charge of
development work. But gradually the product design changed and I kept on
modifying my project every other day- changed the tools, changed the OS,
shifted through multiple languages and finally setup my environment which
worked well. By that time, I was half nuts. I struggled to get my work
completed in time due to many technical issues, frequent changes in the
original concept, and primarily because of lack of practicality of the
project. I lost faith , I realized it was just going to be a test project and
will be discarded in a couple of months time when they start working on the
next long-term project. For them this was a low-priority project, but for me,
it was everything and the only thing that mattered at that time. So I thought
what the heck, I stayed put and tried to get as much work done as possible,
worked like a dog, but my end product was not as impressive as they had
imagined it to be. I didn't want to leave them, I loved my entire team and
they are nice people. So, I continued being nice & tried to help them as much
as I could. You know what, at the end, the entire project was scraped and
forgotten as I expected and now they are focusing on a much bigger, profitable
& 'practical' project. Guess who was blamed in the end and who got away?

If you want to help someone, they will never refuse. Being nice is easy, trust
me. You want to be the nicest guy in the startup world, be the superhero in
charge of saving your company from an predictable doom and maintain true
friendship, I understand. But choose to continue what you are doing only if,
you feel you cannot be more useful anywhere else in the world. God forbid, but
suppose things go seriously wrong in your company tomorrow, the business
people might put the blame on you, since you are the sole implementer.You
mentioned that all of you are close friends..., but if they were in your shoes
instead, what would they have done by now?

The toughest part is saying 'No'. It's painful for you, especially if your
friends are on the receiving end of your rejection, but you need to do the
right thing and save everyone's time including yours. Move on and help your
friends move on too. Find another project or start a different company with
your friends. Or if you have an alternate idea in mind, discuss the concept
with them, don't just be a code monkey.

------
RBerenguel
With revenue you mean, after substracting your salaries or plain revenue like
in "money getting in"? If in one year this only made 100$... Move on, fast. My
(very) small blog makes more in a year, with far less work.

~~~
watmough
To even have a chance at Ramen profitability, you need a couple of grand a
month.

With three non-tech cofounders... hmmm, get out, tastefully.

------
hhartz
Be honest. Tell them about your thoughts and conclusion (that this is not
sustainable), there is a fair chance this will resolve your predicament _and_
strengthen your relationship.

------
ZhangBanger
I'll be terse. You're 100% wasting your time. Leave yesterday.

------
dblock
If the opposite were to happen: if they were unhappy with your performance,
they would fire you and you would agree that it was the right thing to do.
Quit.

------
true_religion
If none of them is technical then why aren't you the CTO?

------
clueless123
If you feel bad about leaving, try to find a good replacement/contractor for
your role, that way you won't leave them "high & dry".

------
blrgeek
Been there. Done that. Except I was stupid and wasted 6yrs of my life.

You woke up in a year. So get the hell out.

------
georgemcbay
Three non-technical founders and one of them is the "CTO"?

What could possibly go wrong?

------
michaelochurch
I am not the first and probably won't be the last to say: you should probably
leave. Find another job, and leave this one.

What does "well connected" mean? If they were _really_ well-connected, you'd
probably have funding... and VCs with an active interest in getting users for
the product. Well-connected means that VCs who don't fund you will mentor you
until you are fundable. It means that you can get TechCrunch coverage with a
phone call. That's what "well connected" means.

Too many people sell themselves as being "well connected" when they aren't.
99.9 percent of us (and 99.99 percent of the smart ones) are peasant people
who don't have that kind of access that would merit having a non-technical
founder.

There is an alternate strategy to the "leave now" advice that you are getting.
I'm going to explore it just for the sake of doing so, although the default
advice of "quit now" stands. _If_ these founders are well-connected, they can
prove it. Ask to go to investor meetings and the various other high-society
shindigs they attend to keep up their connections. They might as well, because
it sounds like they're not paying you. If they do so, then you can evaluate
for yourself whether they're well-connected enough to merit staying in this
long-shot startup (and you can make connections yourself). Sitting in on the
investor meetings will also give you a voice in technical decisions because
you'll have your own perspective on the business needs.

Chances are, they'll say no. It's very unlikely that these "well connected"
"idea guys" will let a lowly JAP (JAP = Just A Programmer) in his early 20s
sit in on investor meetings. This refusal will make it clear to you how little
this personal affinity/loyalty you feel toward them actually means... not
much, on their end. If this happens, then you should leave without reservation
or any feeling of guilt.

~~~
fatalerrorx3
It's funny that you mention "well connected idea guys" not letting a
programmer sit in on investor meetings. I actually surprisingly was invited to
the last investor meeting that the startup that I work for was involved in.
All 3 of us sat there, and I have a feeling the reason why I was invited is
because I'm the stereotypical "programmer" in how I dress, I have a slight
beard, sort of unkempt. My guess is that they figure the chances of getting
funded are better with me there, than with me not there.

The investor kindly pointed out some very important facts about how our
registration process and our product that I had very much agreed with him on
and had voiced these concerns and opinions PRIOR to the meeting and they were
ignored. The registration process on our site takes about 3-4 minutes before a
user can get into the app, and I had been saying all along that no user in
their right mind is going to wait that long, the investor 100% was on the ball
with this one, the product guy did not agree, based on our tester feedback
this supposedly wasn't an issue (all testers are in some way connected to the
co-founders though, relatives + friends). When was the last time the user knew
what they wanted though? Sometimes you need to know what's best for your users
and making them wait 4 minutes for a product when they're not sure what it
does, is definitely a lesson in futility. Me being involved in web development
since I was in middle school, I knew 100% the investor was going to bring that
up and I'm glad he did, but we've still continued to ignore that sentiment
which I believe is a mistake

------
medusa666
Perhaps your decision to leave will be easier if you realize that if _they_
needed to let _you_ go, for whatever reason, they'd do it in a heartbeat. Not
out of malice, and perhaps not without regret, but as a rational business
decision.

~~~
arethuza
Exactly - the OP needs to sit down and evaluate this as a _business_ decision.

------
loverobots
You may like them, and they may be the nicest people on earth but that will
not make you happy at work, make you successful or provide for your children.

You _may_ want to try to bring some common sense in as a last try, but a year
and no users or revenue is a major warning.

Out of 4 people only one can code...not a good thing, at all.

------
wilfra
If it were 2004 maybe this would require some thought. In 2012 it requires
none at all. Start putting out some feelers for jobs. Take some interviews.
When you've got an offer that looks more promising, give them an amount of
notice that shows you care about them and cut your losses. Offer to help with
the transition to contractors or whatever they want to do next.

You'll be able to save the relationships if you remain professional and polite
and give them adequate notice.

It wont be 2012 forever. Demand for people with your skills is insane right
now - don't waste your time. Get moving.

And next time you agree to be a technical co-founder (which is what you are
here), be sure you team up with people who give you an equal say in the
decision making process - not people who view you as an order taker.

~~~
fatalerrorx3
->And next time you agree to be a technical co-founder (which is what you are here), be sure you team up with people who give you an equal say in the decision making process - not people who view you as an order taker.

Well put.

------
dkd903
I have already been once where you are today. My simple suggestion would be to
leave on a good note and go pursue something better. There are many more guys
who are looking to join a startup and I am sure your bosses will get hold of
someone else. Given the fact that your company does not actually server any
active customer, 1 month of No-Development would not be of much harm to the
company owners.

------
rorrr
It looks like you need a clear plan, and stick with it. Weekly meetings are
not there to change the plan, they are there to make minor adjustments,
resolve the roadblocks and discuss progress and strategies.

If you believe in your main idea, you should start with making minimum viable
product and see if your idea actually works. Funding is optional, unless your
website requires something special that needs money.

