
Where Anti-Tax Fervor Means ‘All Services Will Cease’ - iamjeff
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/13/us/anti-tax-fervor-roseburg-oregon-.html?hpw&rref=us&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well
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ericras
This piece does a fairly good job of presenting the conservative point of
view: that there are mountains of waste in government to cut rather than hike
taxes. I agree with that perspective.

Unfortunately, as we've seen from Republican-led governments operating under
this Grover Norquist-esque model for thirty years, the beast never starves. In
Washington DC they print money to offset deficits. Instead of cutting waste,
the libraries and the parks are closed.

There's still a great desire out there for responsible government that can
operate efficiently. That can keep the libraries open by trimming bureaucratic
waste rather than asking for more money. Probably will always be a pipe dream.

~~~
brohoolio
My local government is really transparent about the budget, where it's going.
They've been running really lean since the great recession. It's really
interesting to see how they spend money. There are couple programs I question,
but for the most part they do an excellent job. I will say sometimes a few
years after these programs are implemented I'm generally a fan.

I understand the drive to make government more efficient, run better, but I'm
not sure if that's the goal of the current conservative movement. At least
here in Michigan the state government under republican control has caused all
sorts of issues, like the Flint water crisis.

~~~
ashark
A couple of my friends are in low-level positions with the state government.
At least in their cases, I can say that their offices run so lean that cost-
cutting attempts from higher up just lead to worse service and conflicting (or
outright illegal) directives, which encourage rule-breaking of a sort that is
sure to eventually bite them in the ass in expensive ways.

------
sundvor
From someone of a Norwegian/Australian background, what the whole article
describes is simply alien. People just aren't that _selfish_ on a grand scale
in either of my home countries.

Clearly, none of the non-voters ever read Matilda. Or understand that
ultimately, the lack of public services will put everyone back.

~~~
oceanghost
As a Norweigan, you may not be in possession of certain facts about the US
politics.

1\. Almost all media in the US is severely biased.

2\. This to me at least looks like something called the "national parks
strategy." This is when the government funds its unpopular pet projects
(frequently theft), and underfunds popular programs such as national parks,
roads and the like then threatens the public with their closure if they do not
pass tax increases. Frequently, if the tax is passed, they do a show project
and misallocate the rest of the money. Over the time citizens have become wise
and vote--entirely rationally-- for the safest option which is, no new taxes.

California is in the midst of such a battle now:
[http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/11/californians...](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/11/californians-
rebel-against-gas-car-tax-hike/)

~~~
Sanddancer
The media isn't biased as much as you think. It's anti-confrontational, which
means stories about things people are upset about often get minified. However,
the Washington Times, which you linked to, is fantastically biased. It's owned
by the Unification Church, and has been repeatedly criticized for its pro-Moon
stance. If you want to know what's really happening, don't read the washington
times.

~~~
throwaway7312
US media is biased. Try this experiment: find a conservative friend and a
liberal friend. Ask each of these friends which of the two papers in the
parent and OP is more biased and which is more fact-based.

Your conservative friend will tell you the Washington Times is more fact-based
and the New York Times is heavily biased. Your liberal friend will tell you
the New York Times is more fact-based and the Washington Times is heavily
biased.

Your first conclusion might be that one of your friends (whichever one whose
beliefs oppose yours more) is insane or uneducated on what you know is true.

The more likely conclusion, however, is that each of these papers weaves heavy
amounts of opinion, spin, and perspective on the "facts" it conveys, and that
opinion and spin is invisible to those who share the same biases, while being
conspicuous and grating to those who do not.

------
hoodoof
I think taxes are good. I don't mind paying taxes at all.

I want to support community services and public works and social equality.

The only context in which I really really hate paying tax is where I feel that
the politicians are looting the public money to enrich themselves and give
themselves generous employment benefits well beyond that of ordinary citizens.

~~~
prostoalex
It's more complex than politicians looting for personal enrichment, and it
feels like those corruption cases are handled with an occasional FBI arrest
here and there.

Ever notice how some of the political candidates are supported by some public
employee unions, e.g. a candidate supported (and frequently financed) by
police, teachers, prison guards, etc.?

Well, that same politician, once elected, is frequently in charge of
negotiating the public sector compensation and pension benefits. In what might
come as a total surprise, they turn out to have very weak negotiating skills
when it comes to dealing with unions that invested in their previous rounds.

You don't have to look very far - as far as few years ago the city of San Jose
had to suspend hiring policemen, and lay off some junior teachers due to
funding issues. Meanwhile on the other end of the paycheck spectrum a bunch of
public employees were throwing early retirement parties, having locked in a
six-figure pension for the rest of their lives
[http://www.mercurynews.com/2012/08/30/bay-areas-200k-club-
an...](http://www.mercurynews.com/2012/08/30/bay-areas-200k-club-analysis-
finds-fat-pensions-belong-to-nonunion-bosses/)

~~~
Clubber
A good example of this is all the union busting the GOP were championing in
the 2010s or so. The police and fire unions supported the GOP and the GOP went
on to reduce some of the power of the worker's unions. Scott Walker is one of
these politicians. The police and fire unions were left unharmed and are still
strong.

There could be an argument that the strength of the police unions are
partially to blame with the issues we are having with police shootings and
lack of prosecution, among other things.

------
rrggrr
“Only a crisis - actual or perceived - produces real change." \- Milton
Friedman

Age 45 and up comprises the smallest number of HN readers, the largest number
of Americans, the largest quantity of American voters, and the greatest
concentration of wealth in America. This, majority demographic will support
real change when there is no other option, but not before then. Most refuse to
admit their generations enacted public policies that have left most cites
States and the Federal Government irreversibly in debt.

Milton Friedman also said, "When that crisis occurs, the actions that are
taken depend on the ideas that are lying around." Its critical that today's
emerging leaders are well educated on what makes for sustainable economic and
social policy, and what is required to dig ourselves out from the hole dug for
us.

~~~
danjayh
Much of the problem lies with future unfunded obligations in Social Security.
When Social Security was enacted, the average life expectancy was 61 and the
full retirement age was 65 - the average person died before getting a dime.
This is no longer the case, and it's why the program is going bankrupt. I, at
35 years of age, am not planning to ever receive social security & am saving
at a rate that reflects that (slightly over Dave Ramsey's recommended 15%). I
will vote ASAP to raise the full retirement age to 84, which is 4 years after
the national average life expectancy of 79. Doing this will fill in a
significant portion of the hole that prior generations have dug.

I would also support raising the retirement age for women to a higher value
than that for men, due to the difference in life expectancy. Equal opportunity
to collect, and all (ducks head to dodge flying objects). OK, maybe I'm half
kidding about that, but dead serious about everything else.

~~~
rrggrr
Underfunded State pensions are an even bigger problem. Insurmountable
actually.

------
brohoolio
In rural areas this seems like it will kill jobs and make the area less
desirable.

There always is a balance to strike, not providing too many services at too
high a cost, but killing off a library? Not being able to have police?

How is someone supposed to apply for a job if they don't have internet? How
are they supposed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps? The library
provides ways for people to get ahead.

~~~
slackingoff2017
Realistically every person in America can get enough money for a phone with
internet access. An older used Android phone can be had for around $50.
Internet is free in enough places that a phone with charger is sufficient.

A common and incorrect view of the homeless persists in America, to their
peril. Destitute starving people exist in some countries but not those as rich
as the US.

In the US and other wealthy countries basically 100% of chronic homeless are
in that position due to drugs or mental illness. A normal person thrown on the
street with nothing would be able to scrape together some semblance of a
normal life within a few months.

This is hurting the homeless in the US greatly. The common view of
homelessness as someone just "down on their luck" leads to bad attempts at
solutions. Mentally stable adults without drug problems do not stay homeless
in the US and rarely become homeless.

To help the homeless we need vastly increased spending on mental health and
addiction treatment for the poor. We also need socialized housing for those
too mentally I'll to ever hold a job. A lot of homeless people will be
homeless unless someone pays for a place for them to live indefinitely.

------
crusso
Local, State, and Federal government spending as a percentage of the GDP
continue to creep upward.

[http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1900_2020...](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1900_2020USp_XXs2li111tcn_F0xF0sF0lF0f_Federal_State_and_Local_Spending_in_20th_Century)

It's surprising that the closing of some library branches is somehow the fault
of overly paranoid tax-haters rather than out-of-control spending patterns.

------
ojbyrne
"More money in voters’ wallets from tax cuts in Washington could reduce the
sting in asking people to pay more at home, or it could just reinforce the
idea that all taxes are meant to go down."

The latest tax plan that was floated means very few people in states like
Oregon (with high state taxes) are going to see any reduction, because they're
going to make those state taxes non-deductible. Not sure how that plays into
this argument.

~~~
scarface74
State taxes already aren't tax deductible for the middle class. The standard
deduction for a married couple is $12000. If you have a mortgage on average
price house* ($185,000), you're not clearing enough in mortgage interest and
state taxes to make itemizing worthwhile.

I know there are other deductions, but I still doubt that the average middle
income household ($60,000/year) is clearing over $12,000 in deductions.

[http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/us/](http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/us/)

[http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4957604](http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4957604)

------
maxharris
I live a block away from a public library. It's so close that I can see it
right outside my window!

And you know what? I have not been to that library ever, and I've lived in
this neighborhood for years.

Even if you happen to use your library every day now, you probably won't be
doing that in twenty years, regardless of whether or not they continue to
offer service in your town.

Taking a wide view, what else should we expect, now that we have computers in
our pockets connected to a far larger and more comprehensive source of
knowledge?

There are a lot of details and small objections to my point here, to be sure,
but the technology that's driving this trend is NOT going away.

~~~
maxharris
I see I have three comments here, and I'll just state my main objection to all
three of you (felipemnoa, gene-h, anigbrowl):

Ok, so when are the libraries/community centers going to turn those awful
fluorescent lights off, bring in some comfortable couches and start serving
alcohol and coffee?

Because if they don't start doing that, there's just no draw for me...

~~~
felipemnoa
Might as well just go and sit at a bar with a computer. The library I go to
you can at least bring your own coffee or any other liquids, except probably
alcohol :)

~~~
maxharris
I actually do this :joy:

