
Carmakers Are Learning Japan’s Tech Talent Doesn’t Come Cheap - arcanus
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-29/japan-s-once-dominant-carmakers-face-big-pay-hikes-to-lure-geeks
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ChuckMcM
Very funny quote: _“You’ve got some engineers making 20 million yen ($170,000)
a year. Then you try to fit them in the traditional manufacturer-based salary
structure where it should be 7 to 9 million yen.”_

Clearly they don't understand the market, if the other parts of the market are
paying 20Million Yen for this position then that is where it "should be" and
you have to figure out how to cover that cost.

I get really tired of companies saying "Talent Shortage" when they really mean
"I don't want to pay that much."

~~~
h1fra
Salary can't and shouldn't be compared accross the globe. Being paid 170k€ in
san francisco is maybe the "normal" but few company can afford it in europe or
just about anywhere else. And salary is missleading because way of life is way
more expensive there.

For me the claim is right, there is not enough engineers and they are all
going abroad aka there is a shortage. From my perspective (paris, france) even
if you would pay engineers double from now on to match US salary, there will
still be a shortage for the next 10years at least.

~~~
metaprinter
"Salary can't and shouldn't be compared accross the globe." I disagree. If the
hiring company is looking for the best candidates in the world, then they must
be prepared to shell out comparable 'global' salaries.

~~~
user5994461
I disagree to your disagreement :p

The talent war is continental rather than global. There are plenty of VISA
issues and legal troubles that make it impossible for a lot of people to work
in a lot of countries [and for those who do, it's preventing them to get the
top end of local salaries].

Thus there is no global salary.

~~~
axaxs
there is no global salary. But if a company in say, New York City, needed a
special skill, you can bet they would pay NYC prices to get it regardless of
location. For the rest of us saps, your comment rings true (this coming from a
guy who makes less due to his location)

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GVIrish
Bloomberg's article title is really confusing here. It should say "Japanese
Carmakers are Learning Tech Talent Doesn't Come Cheap".

It's not at all surprising and is part of Japan's overall difficulty in
attracting foreign IT talent or cultivating it locally. Professional work
culture and benefits packages will have to change if they're going to catch up
in the IT sector in the future.

I think the automotive industry is going to develop a lot the way the
smartphone industry has in that software is going to become a much bigger
component of the value proposition of the product. You can build an excellent
car but if you don't have good connectivity, smart features, driver assist
technologies, and slick user interfaces you're going to get blown off the road
by the companies that get it right.

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Matthias247
That's not a japanese phenomen. In the german automotive industry it's the
same thing - and it's one of the reasons I left one of the big german OEMs.

Salaries are very fixed at those companies. You will start at around 50k€
after university, advance to 70-80€ during the next years and will be
basically stuck there. The corporations have defined fixed salary levels
together with the unions and these don't contain any "super-complex", "in-
demand" or "rockstar" levels. It doesn't even matter whether you are doing
mechanical engineering, software, or powerpoint engineering. There exist
higher salaries, but only for team leads and above - which mostly don't
perform technical work anymore.

~~~
vonmoltke
Sounds like the US defense industry.

~~~
user5994461
I thought people were doing defence work as contractors now, which is decently
paid, as all contracting work.

Anyway, defence should be reasonable hours without week end works and on call.
Not comparable to the average bro-grammer company.

~~~
vonmoltke
> I thought people were doing defence work as contractors now, which is
> decently paid, as all contracting work.

"Contractor" does not mean the individuals doing the work are 1099
contractors. It means the work is done through government contracts to private
companies. There is serious cost pressure on those contracts and the people
actually doing the work are generally making below market compensation.

> Anyway, defence should be reasonable hours without week end works and on
> call. Not comparable to the average bro-grammer company.

If only. Sure, you can skate by doing that if you don't mind wallowing in a
boring role with 3% (if you are lucky) annual raises. If you want any sort of
decent career progression you'll be doing 50+ a week and doing whatever needs
to be done to hit the often unrealistic delivery targets.

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joeframbach
_About half the IT professionals in Japan have never changed jobs, compared
with 14 percent in the U.S. and 21 percent in China, according to the METI
survey._

 _“We cannot afford to have people that only come here for a year or two,”
said Redzic_

Translation:

About half the IT professionals in Japan have never learned anything new
outside of their office, compared with 14 percent in the U.S. and 21 percent
in China, according to the METI survey.

“We cannot afford to have people that have wide ranges of experience,” said
Redzic

~~~
geon
No wonder they (allegedly) have difficulties adopting best practices such as
version control.

------
noobermin
>The development cycle for a car usually last years, which can be frustrating
for programmers used to building a system in weeks, said Mandali Khalesi,
Asia-Pacific chief of Netherlands-based digital map-maker HERE, owned by
German automakers Audi AG, BMW AG and Daimler AG. “These people are from
complete IT backgrounds and they don’t expect these long-time cycles,” he said
in an interview in Tokyo.

Do these hackers no longer exist in the US? Or is everyone a hipster rubyist
today?

~~~
micaksica
> Do these hackers no longer exist in the US? Or is everyone a hipster rubyist
> today?

Oh, they exist. It's just the proportion of programmers these days skew
heavily toward web devs and "hipster rubyists" than it used to. There are
still a lot of low-level guys and people with experience with these waterfall
models. However, as "self driving cars" become the rage with a lot of the
public, more hipster rubyist types will want to jump ship to this rage from
their last and will apply expecting the same culture to prevail.

~~~
laichzeit0
I'm afraid the "hipster rubyists" have little to contribute towards the self
driving cars field. You need an actual degree, if not a masters or doctorate
to play. That's why there's a shortage. I don't think these auto-makers are
talking about the type of skills you can pick up in a few weekends of watching
Code School videos or trying to teach yourself machine learning without a
formal education in mathematics/statistics. This is not easy stuff.

~~~
nitrogen
Give me a stack of textbooks, a list of open problems to study, and a six
month supply of caffeine.

~~~
crpatino
Sure. Do you want a divorce with that?

------
rb808
Our Tokyo office is really difficult to staff. Remembering the whole job for
life culture - you just can't hire experienced people you have to hire
graduates and then train them up. So if you want someone with 10 years
experience you have to have hired someone 10 years ago. Of course you can't
fire them if you decide you didn't need so many.

So we hire many foreigners which aren't easy to come by either, and do most
dev work elsewhere.

~~~
kogepathic
What's the process for hiring foreigners?

I'd love to live and work in Japan but basically every job ad I've seen online
wants people who speak Japanese and are already in Japan. Bit of a catch 22...

~~~
rb808
I think its probably the same for any large corporation. I'd check with banks,
insurance companies, even Japanese manufacturers where you can start with a
job in the US with the view to move.

~~~
kogepathic
What about people who don't live in the US?

Not aware of many European multinationals with a big footprint in Japan who
are keen to ship over staff.

~~~
jpatokal
Google Japan hires from all over the world and will sponsor visas if you get
an offer. Obviously the office is focused on the Japanese market, so roles
that don't require fluent Japanese are quite limited, but there's a sizable
software engineering team that explicitly does not require it:

[https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-e...](https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-
engineer-university-graduate-minato-tokyo-japan-1988770623&)

[https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-e...](https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-
engineer-chrome-os-video-minato-tokyo-japan-1991420014&)

But as in any company, the best way to get posted overseas is to get in
locally first and then apply for positions internally.

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laurieg
I'm not a very experienced engineer, but I did go to a world class school and
have worked for a few years. I have been job hunting in Japan and recently
received an offer from a large web company in Japan. They were offering less
than 30k usd, and would not negotiate at all. I have no incentive to do a full
time job when I can make the same with half the hours.

~~~
rememberlenny
You could make the same in two weeks.

~~~
laurieg
I have to say, with the best will in the world, I don't believe you.

I don't believe that someone is paying $15000 a week for some basic software
development.

~~~
user5994461
Factor in the full week, including week end at extra fees, the perks costs,
the insurance, the office, the pension. A 5 figure sum seems perfectly
reasonable!

However, it's not take-home pay and it's not for basic development.

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jstewartmobile
Where to work is a very multidimensional question, but all of the talk (HR,
execs, managers, and even potential employees) proxies it into dollars and
cents.

I know people who went to Google and came screaming back feeling that they had
Stepford-wifed their youth away. I know other smart people working for
libraries and universities for a fraction of what they could make just for the
tranquility of it.

If you're young and have no responsibilities, don't get too hung-up on the
money. Just go out there and try some shit. You never know what's going to be
a good fit, although it's usually pretty easy to spot what's going to be a bad
one.

~~~
raverbashing
> don't get too hung-up on the money

Correct. Not on money, but also not on name ("I _have_ to work for one of the
big 4")

~~~
jstewartmobile
Great point! I'm tempted to go back and add "not getting too hung-up on the
vanity of companies and titles" and giving you credit for it, but that would
probably be asking too much. :-)

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antisthenes
Looks like the title is wrong or something got lost in translation.

It should, in fact, be "Japan's Carmakers Are Learning Tech Talent Doesn't
Come Cheap"

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eliben
This should be filed for safekeeping... you know, for the next time a
journalist laments how grossly overpaid programmers are.

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sangnoir
I do hope some Japanese auto companies get self-driven going. Having been
peripherally involved with a couple of Japanese software projects,I would
appreciate their rigorous approach as a customer.

Unfortunately I found the same trait stressful and overly nit-picky as a
foreign engineer - I'll freely admit it was the best QA I've witnessed in my
life by report quality, thoroughness and turnaround times. I got the
impression that they do not move fast and break things. I don't know how well
SV folk will adapt in such environments.

