
New Office Hours Aim for Well Rested, More Productive Workers - acjohnson55
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/24/well/mind/work-schedule-hours-sleep-productivity-chronotype-night-owls.html
======
lordnacho
I manage a team of 20 fully remote devs, so I get to see exactly when everyone
is working. When they're chatting, when they're pushing code. We don't force
people to be working at any particular time, so I'm guessing when I see them
is when they want to be working.

You can tell some people are complete night owls. One guy checks in code at
3am and rarely talks to anyone until the evening. I guess he sleeps when the
sun is out.

Other people are a bit more ordinary, but still it seems the most productive
hours are not quite as early as when most schools or businesses tend to be
open. I'd say maybe 10am is the de facto "opening time".

There's also a tendency to have a lull in chat in the early afternoon. People
go off to lunch having some ideas about what to do, and then they come back
and do it before dinner. Or they are in deep thinking mode and don't want to
talk, and then check in the code.

Having no meeting time and no commute seems to help everyone. It gives
everyone an extra work day each week, and they can spend their time when they
want to. It also makes managing easier, as I don't have to chase everyone at
the exact same time.

~~~
baxtr
What is your experience regarding productivity? There is the wide-held belief
that remote teams are less productive than co-located ones. I have no clue if
this was ever measured, but my gut tells me there could be something to it.

~~~
dominotw
> There is the wide-held belief that remote teams are less productive than co-
> located ones.

This is true in my experience. I've worked in on many remote teams and
colocated ones and colocated ones have always been more productive. Sure
remote teams are sometimes equally as productive but thats in select
circumstances.

I am on 100% remote team now for past 3 yrs and remote teams lack any human
connection, team culture or shared struggle. Sure I know where everyone lives
and how many kids they have but I don't have any real connection with any of
them. There is no random conversations/ideas to be shared at lunch ect.

~~~
reidjs
I sort of like that part of remote life. As horrible as it may sound, I never
really cared for my coworkers lives outside of work. I have enough friends and
family to worry about that remote life gives me way more time to spend with
them.

~~~
dominotw
I was implying that you work better with people you really know vs
acquaintances. Not, I need friends from work.

~~~
watwut
I never understood this. I mean, I was in teams that cooperated well and I did
not even knew whether they are married. And in bad team with a lot of personal
knowedge and out of work time spend.

~~~
dominotw
ok?

------
013a
I'd love to see more information about the assertion that there are innate
qualities in people which make them Larks versus Owls.

I believe I am a night owl. On an average day, I don't get tired until 2am,
and without an alarm clock I could sleep until 10am; by any definition this
makes me a night owl.

But, I question how much of this behavior is environmental versus innate. I
drink a lot of coffee (never after 6pm). I work on a computer all day (blue
light). My hobbies generally come alive at night (video gaming, spending time
with friends, concerts). I have a naturally addictive and obsessive
personality combined with low self-control (when I get started on something,
like a new work problem or video game, I can't put it down).

Is there research in the area of identifying actual biological reasoning
behind why someone would be an owl versus a lark (genetics, etc)? Or do all of
these studies just rely on behavioral self-reporting, which even the article
says, is completely vulnerable to the very real problem that people really
only know their behavior in the face of all of their vices, and that behavior
might be different if the vices weren't there.

The reason I believe that's important is because it should be a factor in our
response to this. Yes, people need sleep, and they need good sleep. But if a
big reason why you get tired at 2am and thus wake up at 10am is because you're
watching Netflix in bed until the minute you shut your eyes, we can't ask
society to accept that starting work at 11am is fine.

~~~
xkcd-sucks
When backpacking in the wilderness for weeks, I like to sleep around 12-2am
and wake up at least eight hours later. When I need to wake up early for a
long period of time, I do it and it never stops feeling suboptimal. I
appreciate the your point re: lifestyle, technology and sleep hygiene.

But I'm close to forty and it FUCKING PISSES ME OFF how seemingly everyone
minimizes and deflects my concerns and observations about my own body. I
function best when I sleep eight hours beginning at 2-4am. A consistent early
schedule, plus daily exhausting exercise, minus artificial light changes
nothing about my sleep preferences. Two plus two does not equal five.

~~~
mindslight
Talking about "sleep hygiene" is still perpetuating this backwards paradigm
based around expecting that people must wake up early to be productive. The
early bird may get the worm, but the early worm gets eaten.

I've personally found that dark hours are more productive for mental tasks
like programming. AFAICT not because of secondary factors like quietness or
people being around, but simply that bright light undermines my ability to
concentrate. After loading a problem into one's head, and getting "in the
zone", one is supposed to interrupt what they're doing to go to bed at a
"reasonable hour" to live up to someone else's expectations of what a
productive person should look like? Give me a break.

The times I've driven across the country car camping, I've naturally fallen
into waking up much earlier. And I'd much rather do physical tasks when it's
light. But consciousness is not a scalar, and so it's inappropriate to
extrapolate these patterns as indicative of some "true natural cycle" that's
being distorted.

~~~
Sargos
> The early bird may get the worm, but the early worm gets eaten.

This makes no sense. All worms get eaten randomly because all worms have to
surface at the same time. Earliness and lateness don't change the chance you
will be eaten by the early birds. But the original phrase is true that the
early bird gets the worm because it shows up in the window the worms are all
surfacing and the late bird misses the window and goes hungry. Leave the
original phrase intact and maybe ditch the added second part.

~~~
mindslight
The point is a quip to push back against the culture of early risers lording
their being up early over everyone else.

~~~
Sargos
It doesn't really push back though because it doesn't make sense. Phrases are
powerful because they are compressed versions of larger truths. This new
version doesn't work as a phrase like the one it is built from.

~~~
mindslight
It doesn't actually have to fully make sense per se, to invalidate the earlier
saying.

The truth of the whole matter is that we're not birds, but distinct creatures
who live technological lives because of our _lazy ancestors_ who looked for
better ways rather than just competing to do the straightforward thing first.
If you can find some way to stuff that into a tight phrase, please do!

------
rconti
I am just finishing reading the fantastic book Why We Sleep [1], and as in so
many well-meaning studies and articles, I can't help but feel like this effort
is misguided. Just like an addict cannot accept help until they want it, I
don't see how "adjusting" work schedules for those who don't even understand
their own biology can possibly be helpful.

I've ALWAYS considered myself a night owl. I'm still not sure I'm not. But
I've spent the past year rising earlier than I'm used to, and the past 7
months rising even earlier than that due to an enforced carpool with my wife.
For the first time in my working life, I HAVE to be awake at a certain time
(incidentally, far earlier than I'm used to). Instead of snoozing for an hour,
I bolt from bed far earlier than I want to. I go to sleep marginally earlier.
But my routine is regular I'm happier. I feel better. I feel healthier. I
started reading the book and am acutely interested in tuning my sleep times to
make this work even better.

Maybe I've never been a night owl. Maybe I've just had horrible sleep habits.
Or maybe I AM a night owl, and I'd be even _better off_ than I can possibly
imagine, if I take all of these habits and processes and move them later in
the day.

But I just feel like you can't possibly know if you're a morning bird or a
night owl until you're already, consistently, religiously, getting enough
sleep every night, on a consistent sleep/wake schedule.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-
Dreams/dp/1501...](https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-
Dreams/dp/1501144316)

~~~
matwood
> Instead of snoozing for an hour,

I've never understood the snooze button. Either it's time to get up or it's
not.

~~~
rconti
I find it INCREDIBLY difficult to wake from sleep. As do many others,
apparently.

Getting enough sleep is a first step, but we know most people do not -- so
very few are in the great position you are to treat it as a 100% conscious
choice to snooze or not to snooze.

~~~
matwood
The point is if you have the time to snooze for an hour, would you not get
better sleep by just setting your alarm an hour later?

~~~
Izkata
No. I can naturally wake up after 6 or so hours of sleep on weekends when I go
to sleep at 4am, but the entire work week I have to ease myself up with a few
hits of the snooze button, even after 7-8 hours.

(My snooze is also set to 5 minutes, not an hour)

------
tokyodude
> Put it this way: If you rely on an alarm clock to wake up, you’re out of
> sync with your own biology.

I get told, especially by lots of armchair wannabe doctors here on HN that I
need 8 hours of sleep but if I don't set my alarm (I actually rarely set my
alarm) I often wake up in naturally in 6 hours regardless of when I go to
sleep. Maybe 30% of the time I can go back to sleep, the other 70% I'm not
tired.

Otherwise in relation to the topic in general I'm not 100% I want my most
awake time to go to the company I work for. Is that wrong?

~~~
muse900
> Otherwise in relation to the topic in general I'm not 100% I want my most
> awake time to go to the company I work for. Is that wrong?

Nope, I completely agree with that also. I personally don't want to spend my
most awake time for the company I work either.

Also just to comment on something that has been said times and times again,
the 8 hour working schedule was introduced more than 150 years ago and started
getting implemented 100 years ago. Its time for humanity to move on and find
different systems that will allow us to work less and enjoy more of what life
has to offer. We did have the computational revolution during the 90's early
2000 and now we've reached a point where a lot of jobs have been automated and
a lot more to come. Think of everything out there and how much faster its been
done with the use of computers and the internet. So our productivity must have
went up by tremendous amounts although the working hours didn't go down at
all, they remained exactly the same.

My personal belief is we can easily bring it down to 6 hours a day and slowly
slowly bring it down to 4 working days per week. Of course such thing must
happen massively around the globe, given how interlinked countries are
nowadays.

------
iambateman
For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure my body clock is, like many others,
cycles every 24.75 hours.

In other words, it kind of doesn’t matter, I’m always going to be fighting it.

It’s been that way for my entire life: coffee or tea, winter or summer,
college or home, single or married. Pretty much regardless, I’m going to feel
tired at 11p today and ~11:45p tomorrow and 12:30a the following day before I
do a dramatic reset and start again.

~~~
samcheng
Sounds like you should move to Mars! The Mars day is roughly 40 minutes longer
than Earth's.

~~~
iambateman
See you there! I hear it’s nice this time of year!

------
vlunkr
It would be lots easier to align work with our natural sleep cycles if the
standard work week was less than 40 hours. People don’t really want to wake up
at the crack of dawn, but you’ve got to get those hours in!

~~~
officemonkey
Many people who have jobs in urban areas have to deal with long commutes on
top of a standard work week.

I'm one of those rare people who will happily go to bed at 9 pm every night.
My favorite job was when I teleworked from 6 AM - Noon. 30 hours a week, with
no commute, and my choice of hours? It was heaven.

~~~
justwalt
I worked at a job where a coworker of mine would commute 1.25-1.50 hours one
way, every day. I’m not sure how he did it.

To get to work at 8am, he’d have to wake up at 6am, assuming he gets ready
quickly. Then, after leaving at 5, he’d arrive home around 6:30. So all in
all, about 4 hours of time to himself, assuming he didn’t work late. That’s a
hell of a way to live.

~~~
rajnp
Mine is same as your ex-coworker's, 1.25-1.50 hours one way, around 2.5 hours
for commute.

------
starpilot
> Put it this way: If you rely on an alarm clock to wake up, you’re out of
> sync with your own biology.

You're out of sync if you're not feeling the air around you warm up with the
sun, or watching the sky above you change from black to the glimmer of dawn,
or hearing the birds start to chirp with the sunrise. I've experienced all of
these with hundreds of nights backpacking in the wilderness, and indeed it has
been the best sleep of my life. If you've any semblance of a modern,
industrial lifestyle though then you're so screwed up by the rest of your life
that an alarm clock is the least of your artifical interruptions.

~~~
nottorp
Are you sure that the physical effort and the cleaner wilderness air weren't
the actual factors that made you sleep better than in the city?

------
bitrrrate
Interesting that corporate America typically likes to have cookie cutter
schedules that often intrude into our mornings. However, Jeff Bezos, arguably
one of the more successful business people in the world doesn’t schedule early
morning meetings, sleeps 8 hours a night and wakes up naturally without an
alarm clock.

[https://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-bezos-daily-
routine-201...](https://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-bezos-daily-
routine-2017-7)

~~~
mschuster91
Well, it certainly can be argued that you are a more successful business
person if you're not getting ripped off by your negotiation counterparts as
you fight your wish to sleep.

There's a reason I don't do the "fly to X in the morning, have meeting, fly
back" racket. I always have either a night train or a sleepover in a hotel,
when I have to travel for workshops or hands-on work - making me get up at 4
o'clock in the morning means my employer loses at minimum half a day of
productivity or more plus either night trains or hotel are cheaper than the
productivity loss.

------
pishpash
It's not enough to have flexible policy at one or even many workplaces. The
world is run by Larks and as long as that's the case, meetings will "need" to
be scheduled at certain times, people will "need" to be at home at certain
times, errands will "need" to be run at certain hours because places close,
children will "need" to be picked up, social events will happen at certain
times. Owls will always be second class citizens.

------
usaphp
They should start with kids then. I remember how painful was to wake up in the
morning to go to school at a very early age. Worst memories of my childhood.

~~~
everdev
School and work hours is a very similar problem to the metric system. Even
though there's a more efficient system, the switching cost is significant in
that you're out of sync with all those that don't make the switch, or don't
make it at the same time as you.

Once the majority or a popular minority start using later work/school hours or
the metric system, then there will be a catalyst for change. But for those
early adopters there is a significant burden of extra communication that needs
to take place.

~~~
ndnxhs
I almost had a car crash while driving to high school half asleep. Now I'm
older and I get up at the same time but I don't feel tried at all.

~~~
stephen_g
Glad it didn’t turn out badly, but from a sleep cycle perspective it’s normal.
Kids usually have fairly early sleep cycles, and as they age it gradually gets
later, peaking around late adolescence where it can be three or so hours later
than an adult. After that, it shifts back to normal over the next decade or
so. Aparantly this has been observed not just with humans but in various
animal species as well.

But there are various disorders where people either have unusually late or
early sleep cycles that can be up to several hours different from normal.

------
randomacct3847
I like waking up early because more than at any other time of the day you have
a period of quiet that you can have for yourself. I lived in nyc for a short
period of time and there’s a joy in stepping out between 5:30-7 and feeling
how quiet the city can be.

~~~
orev
It’s the same at night if you’re a night owl, with the added benefit of
knowing you don’t have a bunch of other things you also need to get done that
day (because you already did them).

~~~
sotojuan
In my experience NYC is way more quiet at 6am than 1am, even residential
neighborhoods. It’s also not super dark out (outside of winter).

------
burlesona
That was an interesting read. I was glad to hear the article point out that
many people don’t know their chronotype. My schedule has changed a lot over
the years and I’ve alternated between having to be up early and up late, with
both being difficult to adjust to initially. The suggested diagnostic
techinique (spend two weeks on vacation with no alarm clock) sounds like a
nice idea :)

------
scarejunba
I was able to adjust my sleep schedule with just 300 μg of melatonin to
trigger sleep. Whereas previously I'd sleep at 0100 now I sleep at 2200. Very
useful.

~~~
sidcool
Is it addictive? Are there any side effects?

~~~
crisper99
While it didnt seem to be addictive to me I only used it for a week and then
the vividness of some of the dreams bad and good caused me to stop. It never
helped get me to sleep earlier. I didnt think that drastic of a change from
normal was worth my mental safety.

~~~
shados
Could it just be that you werent used to getting a significant amount of REM
sleep?

~~~
hnick
It could be the REM rebound effect as mentioned here:
[https://podcastnotes.org/2018/04/29/why-we-
sleep/](https://podcastnotes.org/2018/04/29/why-we-sleep/)

I'm working my way through the book, very interesting stuff.

------
matthewhall
I recently started using an app called Sleep Cycle to help my body's response
to the alarm. It measures how deep your sleep is and wakes you when your sleep
is shallow (within the time range). I find myself waking up thirty-plus
minutes earlier and feeling much better and awake, all day.

My next endeavor will be to build a Circadian Rythm light clock that changes
the ambient light in the room to naturally wake me up.

------
Zelmor
Been fully remote since mid 2016. I've never received positive comments on my
work attitude before this position.

\- I am thin and tall, constantly feeling cold in air-conditioned offices.

\- The office lights hurt my eyes.

\- I prefer music playing instead of people talking, and I do not feel bad for
taking an hour long break when I feel exhausted or frustrated.

\- I usually wake up around 8, so I get out the door after coffee&breakfast is
done, and we get dressed with the wife. We don't leave the house before 9:30
on average.

\- I also think commuting longer than a 15 minute walk/bus ride is a waste of
my time.

\- I am working from a laptop, so I think it should be completely acceptable
to send a mail in the morning saying "I'll be working from under a warm
blanket & my cat today" when there is no in-person meeting scheduled.

In my current position I'm assigned projects that get done on time and
feedback is positive. Work is done, all is well. Noone cares when you start
the day, just show up for the calls, which are never scheduled before 9:30 on
my request.

We got a junior fired because she couldn't keep up with expectations. I think
full-remote wasn't for her. She also had untreated schizophrenia, I bet that
didn't help either. When you are a couple screws loose, it helps to have
people around to keep you grounded. On winter days I almost exclusively work
from cafes, so as to avoid winter depression.

------
paulcole
I don’t want to be at work when I’m most productive! I want to be on my own
time doing the things I actually want to do.

------
IronWolve
I had a co-worker who only needed 4 hours of sleep, a DBA manager. He told me
had multiple sleep studies by the washington state college, he just won the
genetic lotto, and just had more time to get things done.

I've been into sleep hacking for the last 3 months, and thinking on and off
about sleep cycles for myself for the last decade. Picked up a sleep tracker
and newer fitbit that can track my sleep and verify each others recording. I
tend to want 8 to 9 hours, but with an officer job, its been 5x 6 hours and 2x
12 hours on the weekend. This just isn't maintainable anymore for me as I'm
getting older and limiting my caffeine, etc.

I've switched to a 10pm to 6am with possible modifications. It makes the days
2 hours shorter, but I get time back on the weekend as I'm not re-charging up
from the week, and I wake up rested every day.

I've done segmented sleep when I was working a service job in my 20s while
living in dorm. Crash at 10pm, Get up at 4am, work an hour, go back to sleep
at 5am, and get back up at 7am. That worked great, and want to try to
replicate that again. Love waking hours in the twilight mornings when its
quite and refreshed.

Plus, you get the benefit of another deep sleep cycle after being awake and
active, and going to sleep again. (As my sleep trackers are reporting to me).

And thats not even talking about supplements and exercise to effect sleep. But
I recommend magnesium for everyone.

~~~
matwood
> I've switched to a 10pm to 6am with possible modifications. It makes the
> days 2 hours shorter, but I get time back on the weekend as I'm not re-
> charging up from the week, and I wake up rested every day.

This is basically the 'early' schedule I have settled on. I get up between
5-6am, workout immediately, and start the day.

------
jillesvangurp
Some simple life hacks that work for me (depending external constraints).

1) I don't set an alarm clock unless I plan to get up really early to catch a
plane or something like that. Normal work days, I wake up when it is light;
generally around 8 am. Later in the winter and earlier in the summer. I don't
fight it. That's 7-8 hours after going to bed. I need those; this is normal
from what I understand. Besides, I enjoy sleeping so why cut on quality time?

2) I avoid caffeine after lunch. It causes me to sleep later and generally not
get enough rest. Coffee is a short term fix when I'm tired but it sets me up
for poor sleep. It works better for me when I consume less of it.

3) I eat light lunches to avoid my digestive system shutting down my brain in
the afternoon.

4) I stop working when I'm tired in the early evening. The better I sleep, the
later this is. Decision making goes out of the window when I'm tired and I
know trying to solve complex stuff when tired is a waste of time and I can do
the same job more efficiently in the morning. However, when I'm in the zone, I
often keep on pushing on. This seems to happen for me a lot between 6pm and
9pm but only when I'm not distracted and well rested in the morning.

~~~
magicalhippo
Re point 1, since I'm living a bit up north it's not bright enough outside in
the morning, and my job requires me to be there by 9. So I got one of those
Philips wake-up lamps, which gently fades up to a rather bright light. That
helps a lot with feeling well rested when I wake up during the winter.

A key point though is to allocate enough time for sleep. My morning light
won't save me if I've only had 5 hours of sleep.

Re point 3, I found the same incidentally when I tried (and managed) to lose
weight. In order to cut down on calories I opted to simply skip lunch, and
rather have a late breakfast. So I'd bring breakfast (two rather manly slices
of >90% whole-grain bread) and eat it at around 10. Then I'd have dinner when
I got home at around 5-6 pm.

This made me have a much more even energy level throughout the work day,
making me significantly more productive.

------
jimijazz
From reading a blog post a while back I got into believing that I have a
25-hour circadian rhythm. This means that if I wouldn't use an alarm to wake
up, I would end up waking up and going to bed later and later as days go by.

Is there such a thing? Does anyone have any similar experience/advise?

------
matfil
One of the barriers to seeing more of this is the current focus on ”team-ism”.
In the technical world, practices like pair programming and daily stand ups
are big drivers of regular working hours in a field that was historically one
of the better ones for individual flexibility.

------
pts_
>And at some pharmaceutical, software and financial companies, managers expect
employees to come to the office for only a few hours in the middle of the day
— or to work off site entirely.

I am curious how pharma jobs can be carried out offsite(from home?).

------
dbg31415
Getting up early is my super power.

I wake up at 5 AM every day without an alarm. I make my bed (1), I walk my
dogs, I make breakfast, I hit the gym, I get a nice long shower, I have time
to do things before all the distractions kick in. I have a short commute.
Highly recommend getting up at 5 AM.

(1) If You Want to Change the World, Start Off by Making Your Bed - William
McRaven, US Navy Admiral - YouTube ||
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sK3wJAxGfs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sK3wJAxGfs)

------
rauhl
I realised after reading this that if indeed there’s a cognitive peak an hour
or two after waking, then that’s a pretty good argument for remote working: it
enables one to enjoy _two_ peaks per day while working instead of just the one
late-afternoon one, since one doesn’t waste one’s peak somewhere between
breakfast and commuting.

It does also make the old routine of reading the morning paper seem pretty
smart, since presumably doing so during a cognitive peak increases reading
comprehension & retention.

------
katsura
I know people who have to work 3 days in the morning, 1 day rest, 3 days in
the afternoon, 1 day rest, and 3 days at night. I understand that there are
places where they have to keep the workers in rotation, but why don't they
change this monthly, for example? I don't think that in 3 days your internal
clock can adjust.

------
lgleason
Finally! I am most productive at night, but not all places want to have you
working during that time, which is a lose-lose.

------
asadkn
Is anyone aware of any studies done on whether and how soon the "circadian
rhythm" adjusts and changes?

Personally, I easily and fully adjust within a few weeks to any new sleep
schedule. For 10-14 days, I definitely feel more fatigued and productivity
decreases after a drastic schedule change, but things get to normal very soon.
I currently sleep at 7am and wake up at 3pm. Just a few months back, I used to
sleep at 9pm and wake up at 4am. Previous few years have seen 10am-6pm,
7am-3pm, 2am-10pm, 8pm-4am etc.

As for personal preference, I prefer my 7am-3pm sleep schedule the most simply
because nights are more peaceful with no distractions.

tl;dr I have changed my schedules countless times over the years, and after an
adjustment period of few weeks, there's little difference in terms of
productivity or how I feel.

~~~
samnwa
A cool trick to adjust your schedule in just 1 night is to stop eating 12-16
hours before you want to wake up. This is particular great for travel to
adjust quickly to time zone changes.

------
pushpankar
I was a night owl. I would sleep around 2-3AM. Then I started working out and
Stopped drinking coffee. These days, I feel tired by 11 and wake up around
7AM.

------
Entalpi
Not all hours are equal in terms of productivity. Realising this made me
change so that I dont overwork.

------
LoSboccacc
As a night owl I like that day shift. I love having the most productive hours
for myself

------
dmarlow
What about those with cycles that aren't 24 hours?

------
mrhappyunhappy
There is an excellent episode on Joe Rogan show about sleep. Don’t have a link
handy but highly recommend it.

~~~
tomcam
Is it this one? [https://podcastnotes.org/2018/04/29/why-we-
sleep/](https://podcastnotes.org/2018/04/29/why-we-sleep/)

