
Doctor advises only using soap on your hands and nowhere else - oska
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jul/28/soap-dodger-meet-the-doctor-who-says-we-have-been-showering-wrong
======
eczema_haver
I have eczema, and at one point it got so severe from taking (too-)hot
showers, that I could hardly sleep for weeks because of the discomfort. Out of
desperation I gave up showering altogether so that I could heal. I eventually
realized that I didn't really smell. After my skin healed I didn't resume
showering. That was about four years ago. I've never had anyone (including my
partner whom I live with) tell me I smell under normal circumstances (in fact
I asked my partner directly), nor that my skin looks or feels oily or abnormal
in any way. Same with my hair. I do smell for a few hours right after vigorous
exercise or something, but it's nothing a little deodorant and a fresh shirt
can't fix.

I don't know if everybody is this way - I'm sure it varies a lot by body
chemistry - but for me at least there have been no downsides. In addition to
saving time, I have to think I've saved an enormous amount of water. From the
article, it sounds like I may be healthier for it too.

~~~
ecmascript
Are you saying you haven't showered for four years and don't smell?

I am sorry, but I do not believe you. What the author is saying is not to use
soap, not to avoid showering.

~~~
greycol
Yeah people are notoriously bad at noticing odours they are acclimatized to
(anyone who's given up smoking, been to a convention, or talked to someone
living in a smelly area can attest to that).

That's not to say they couldn't smell fine without daily showers but a smell
will certainly build up over time. Some might be lucky and it won't smell
particularly objectionable but you will smell and will smell stronger over
time.

They need to check with someone they don't live with(so they're not used to
it) and that someone will need to be willing to be blunt with them.

~~~
eczema_haver
I've asked my parents too, who I only see 3-4 times a years, and they said
there's no smell. And I trust they wouldn't lie to me about something like
this. For obvious reasons I haven't brought up the question with people I'm
not as close to, like coworkers.

------
rossdavidh
Having had some problems with eczema a few years ago, I did start using soap
on only the smelliest parts of the body a few years back, and it helped a
great deal compared to the "lather up entire body in shower every day"
strategy before that. I don't know that I'd agree with "hands and nowhere
else", but I do think we have too little information on our skin microbiome
and how it works (or malfunctions) to say we know what we're doing in regards
to soap. All of which goes double for soap with antibiotic added.

~~~
finaliteration
I also have some eczema/dry skin problems and one thing that I've found helps
is not showering every single day. I used to shower once (or sometimes twice)
a day, and it made the skin on my elbows and knees extremely tight, dry, and
itchy. I now shower every other day (I still use deodorant and change my
clothes) and haven't had nearly as many issues. That being said, I am
fortunate because I don't have a lot of body odor and I don't sweat very much,
so I can reasonably get away with not having a daily shower.

~~~
eczema_haver
Other factors that I've experienced (with eczema):

\- Water temperature has a huge effect; consider taking lukewarm or even cold
showers, if you can get used to it

\- Using a wash rag is _much_ harsher than just using soap in your hand. The
coarse surface really used to tear up the outer layer of my skin.

\- When drying off with a towel, pat instead of rub

------
kanobo
The problem with humans is that we like to take things to the extremes when we
find out new information. Microbes are bad? Let's use anti-bacterial soap
everywhere. Microbes are good? Let's not use soap anymore. The best advice is
to live life in moderation, use some soap if you have a dirty job and don't
use soap just because you're bored. Play in the sand and eat a variety of
things and you'll be fine.

~~~
analog31
An old favorite quote: "Everything in moderation, including moderation."

------
jhloa2
This is certainly an interesting perspective. I have a friend that refuses to
wear sunscreen because he feels like the risk to his health from rubbing all
the "unknown chemicals" into his skin outweigh the health risk of skin cancer.
While I still use sunscreen, his perspective did get me thinking about all the
unknowns I've introduced into my body through the skin.

Logically, it makes sense that our skin can adapt to be less oily and odorous
with taking a break from using a lot of soap. I've been only using shampoo to
wash my hair every other time I shower and I've noticed that my hair now seems
to take longer to get oily. It's basically the same concept as using soap on
the rest of our skin.

~~~
monktastic1
Don't know if you saw this recently: [https://www.wsj.com/articles/sunscreen-
chemicals-accumulate-...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/sunscreen-chemicals-
accumulate-in-body-at-high-levels-11594978201)
([http://archive.is/nvBBT](http://archive.is/nvBBT)).

"For the second time in less than a year, a study of common sunscreen
ingredients has established that the chemicals are absorbed into the
bloodstream at concentrations far greater than the Food and Drug
Administration’s safety threshold."

~~~
jhloa2
Thanks for the link! I'm going to make the switch to physical sunscreens. I
don't think I can justify not using sunscreen here at high altitudes in
Colorado.

------
throw0101a
If anyone wants a 'fuller' treatment on the topic I would recommend the book
_Beyond Soap_ by Dr. Sandy Skotnicki; bona fides:

> _Dr. SANDY SKOTNICKI is the founder of Toronto’s Bay Dermatology Centre and
> an Assistant Professor in the Department of Medicine, divisions of
> Dermatology and Occupational and Environmental Health at the University of
> Toronto. She is a consultant dermatologist at Toronto’s St. Michael’s
> Hospital._ […]

* [https://drsandyskotnicki.com](https://drsandyskotnicki.com)

Interview with her on TVO, the province of Ontario's public broadcast network:

* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGl19JJnaK0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGl19JJnaK0)

It's not that soap is "bad", it's just that we're overemphasizing cleanliness
to the point that a lot of the cleaning chemicals we (over-)use are damaging
our skin.

Also, one certainly wants some cleanliness, but many products are excessively
harsh for what they accomplish, and so she recommends certain products that
she's found helped her patients:

* [https://www.producteliminationdiet.com](https://www.producteliminationdiet.com)

------
MrManatee
I don't use as little soap as the article suggests, but I use less than many
people do. I don't want to smell bad, and I know it's harder to judge your own
smells. But there's one piece of trivia that gave me the confidence to try it.

Humans have two types of sweat glands: eccrine and apocrine. Eccrine sweat
glands are found all over the body. Apocrine glands are found in armpits (and
a few other areas), and they only activate at puberty. The smell is related to
bacterial activity in the "apocrine sweat". Armpits don't smell because they
sweat more; they smell because it's a different kind of sweat.

So I use soap for my armpits. If I don't, I'll notice the smell easily in a
day or two. But for most of my skin, I can go pretty much indefinitely with
just water. I don't notice any bad smells, and I have asked some close
friends, and they don't smell anything either.

~~~
oska
You're right about the two different types of sweat glands.

And just to finesse what you're saying here:

> The smell is related to bacterial activity in the "apocrine sweat". Armpits
> don't smell because they sweat more; they smell because it's a different
> kind of sweat.

Even the sweat from the apocrine glands doesn't smell when it's produced. But
because it is much richer in nutrients than the sweat produced from the
eccrine glands (which is 99% water and the last 1% mainly being salts), it is
a fertile feeding ground for bacteria. And it's _the waste_ excreted by the
bacteria feeding on your appocrine sweat that smells bad, not the sweat
itself.

------
upofadown
As I got older the situation with my scalp kept getting worse and worse to the
point I was using anti-fungus shampoo and still had fungus. So I just gave up.
After an oily month or so everything was great. So I stopped using soap in the
shower entirely. So far so good and it has been at least 5 years.

------
DoreenMichele
If you have any kind of serious health issue, it's worth looking at your usual
routine -- aka anything you do habitually, basically -- and wondering if
that's a variable worth varying instead of considering something like soap all
over to be sacrosanct.

We have a shockingly poor understanding of the _processes_ behind most
diseases. We generally do a poor job of even thinking of the body in terms of
processes and throughputs, much less factoring in elements like "I wonder how
this is impacting my microbiome? And what that does to my overall health?"

Tips for self experimentation:

1\. Keep a journal.

2\. Make one and only one change at a time and space them at least a week
apart, longer if possible.

~~~
Ductapemaster
Questioning my daily routine led to me noticing significant improvements to my
hair health. My lightbulb moment happened on a scuba trip (diving 4-5 times a
day for week) where I wasn't showering like I usually do, but just rinsing off
the salt at the end of the day. My hair was incredibly healthy by the end of
the week — no excessive oils, discomfort, dandruff, itchy scalp — just healthy
hair. I had suffered on and off with those before.

I started using shampoo only once or twice a week (I do shower daily) and just
using hot water the rest of the days. My hair is immensely happier now! I also
switched to using a "fancy" shampoo with salt granules in it, since the ocean
seems to make my hair nice, and that helped as well. Even though the shampoo
is more expensive than the cheap stuff I used before, I use way less of it and
it's cheaper overall.

I've tested my theory in a couple ways, and it's all been positive. After a
Pre-COVID haircut, I had them use whatever shampoo they use for a wash. My
scalp was itchy, dry, and uncomfortable for at least 24 hours after that, and
my hair was totally flat for a few days as well. I also tried not using
shampoo for a long time (3 weeks) and just using hot water, but I got dandruff
again and I could feel I was getting dry skin and oil residue building up on
my scalp. I'm back to my normal routine now, and have never been happier.

------
TheSpiceIsLife
I'm a naturopathy by certification, I don't practice because I prefer to work
in my trade. Four years studying in a formal capacity, Western Herbal
Medicine, Clinical Nutrition (diet and supplements), and enough anatomy &
physiology and pathophysiology to be able to converse with experts in the
field and keep up, and the resulting life-long passion to seek out and
critically analyse new information relating to chemistry, biochemistry,
neurology, immunology, etc etc etc.

I have fond memories of one lecturer always saying "don't put anything on your
skin you wouldn't put in your mouth _and swallow_ ".

Your skin is _permeable_ , the fats and oils the skin exude are part of it's
protective systems, and, as the article points out, the regular surface of the
skin is a veritable smorgasbord of _commensal_ organisms.

We should probably stop treating out bodies as fundamentally broken. They've
gotten us this far, and, more generally, you don't see other animals obsessed
with hygiene. Although I did recently see a video of a rat soaping itself up
for a shower, so there's that I guess.

~~~
Apocryphon
Animals don't wear clothing, so already we're starting with a default that's
different from nature. It's much easier to trap in sweat, oils, and other
byproducts if you're rubbing up against fabrics all day.

~~~
swinglock
Also few animals sweat like humans do.

------
Tarq0n
Doctors are required to get a doctorate for their career. This has two major
consequences. For one, research standards are lower because many doctors are
only doing it because it's mandatory, and there's a lot more people doing
simple medical research than in most other areas of inquiry. This causes a lot
of underqualified opinions to surface for prestigious-sounding doctors.

As always, be skeptical of claims that go against consensus. Extraordinary
claims require extraordinary evidence.

~~~
mumblemumble
_Is_ there a medical consensus on this? The closest I've heard to anything on
the subject is that a dermatologist once advised me to try not using soap on
my face as a possible acne treatment.

~~~
antibctrlsoap
Should you wash your face with antibacterial soap?

No, because the microbiome (helpful bacteria) around the eyes prevents
conjunctivitis. And killing off those beneficial bacteria clears the way for
far more undesireable bacteria.

Yes, germs are bad.

~~~
mumblemumble
In the USA, is antibacterial soap even a live issue, since the FDA banned
basically all the chemicals used to make it about 5 years back? I would assume
that at this point the ingredients they're using don't actually work (except
perhaps in test tubes and at extreme concentrations) and it's largely just a
hollow marketing term.

~~~
antibctrlsoap
Triclosan > Policy describes the policy situation in regards to consumer
antimicrobial agents like triclosan:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triclosan#Policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triclosan#Policy)

We generally credit Lister with saving many lives by inventing sterile
surgical procedures; so, how do germs in open wounds and germs on the skin
differ in their effects on survival, health, and appearance?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Lister](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Lister)

------
yingw787
Fun fact, in Ancient Rome people used olive oil as soap, and scraped off the
excess using a...metal thing. Sometimes they put perfumed olive oil into their
bathtubs. This is for richer folk, regular people used crude soaps.

[https://hubpages.com/education/The-Many-Uses-of-Olive-Oil-
in...](https://hubpages.com/education/The-Many-Uses-of-Olive-Oil-in-Ancient-
Rome)

~~~
shadowprofile77
Strigil. that's what it was called.

------
jhanschoo
On the other hand, I used to get clogged pores when I went an extended period
without body gel (after being allergic to a body gel I used). I've since
resumed with a different brand. So this advice is very ymmv.

------
Semiapies
"It’s one of the few remaining things for which we feel fine telling someone
that they’re gross"

Nice variation on the old _the last acceptable prejudice..._ rhetoric.

------
crb002
A wet loofah will exfoliate just fine without soap. You don't give your colon
a soap enema every day, why do that to your skin microbiome?

------
sys_64738
Does this really pass the smell test?

------
james305
Sorry for folks with eczema, but maybe it's about the soap you're using versus
not using soap. I've had the misfortune of working with people who thought
showering was optional and it's not pleasant. So unless you want to offend
others and be referred to as the stinky co-worker please wash.

~~~
mumblemumble
You've conflated "not using soap to clean oneself" with "not cleaning
oneself".

I have several friends who _do_ shower, but don't use soap except for hands or
when they're actually dirty. None of them get funky, except when we're camping
and nobody's been able to take a shower for a while.

~~~
james305
Just water or is there some soap proxy?

~~~
mumblemumble
Just water. Just like what TFA is suggesting.

------
m0zg
This "doctor" has never been in the same room with a 15 year old who hasn't
showered for a week. The "body odor" of that magnitude should be prohibited
under the Geneva Convention.

~~~
monktastic1
The article does not say that we should not shower. Water (especially _warm_
water) by itself does a _lot_. Also, he is not a "doctor"; he is a doctor.

