

Meet The Double (YC S12), A Teleconferencing Robot With An iPad For A Face - davidcann
http://techcrunch.com/2012/08/13/meet-the-double-a-teleconferencing-robot-with-an-ipad-for-a-face/

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iandanforth
That's a pretty impressive price point and I'd love to know more about the in
house manufacturing.

The one company that has really succeeded in this area is Giraff. They've done
so by intensely focusing on in-home care and the user experience for the
person interacting with the robot. Things like end user controls to
approve/reject someone who wants to start driving the robot.

Anybots, on the other hand, focused more on the driving experience. Their
rendered, in-browser, drive window helps overcome the awful user experience of
trying to turn under lag. They also did a lot of hard work to solve wifi
roaming and seamless handoff.

I wish Double the best of luck with my advice being that you need months of
uptime and recorded daily use in a target vertical before you're ready to
release.

~~~
Undertow10
Thanks! We're out in Mountain View now, but we built out our own shop a year
ago in Miami, FL. About 90% of the manufacturing on Double is still done there
today by our contract workers. We have a Haas VF-2SS mill and have made custom
fixtures for most of the parts on the robot. We purchased a Stratasys FDM
printer and brought it with us out to CA with us to do rapid prototyping
during YC. All of the prototype electronics were hand-soldered under a
microscope and tested in house, but we will soon be handing that off to a PCB
Assembly house now that the boards are finalized.

As far as driving goes, we have 3 or 4 different methods we want to experiment
with once things settle down, but so far the joystick-style is most intuitive.
OpenTok's new iOS to iOS video has cut down on the lag a bunch.

Thanks for the comments!

-marc @ double

~~~
iandanforth
Very cool, I hope you have a Dimension series, those are sweet.

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jaysonelliot
We used a pair of VGo telepresence robots at our NYC and Philadelphia offices
last year. Here's some video from the demo, just before we got them:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3tLLzOqKs4>

I found the VGo to be a huge help when it came to being present in an office
that I couldn't physically go to at the time. I was the head of a department
that had groups in different cities, and it was a lot easier for me to feel I
had a cohesive team when I was able to actually "be" there instead of just on
Skype. It's hard to overstate the value of being able to go join a quick work
session at the couches, or go looking for someone in an office where people
are always busy and wandering around.

Of course, in a large company where not everyone is an early adopter, to put
it politely, there's also an annoying side to having a telepresence robot.
Some people spend more time focusing on the novelty than getting to work, and
it can be a distraction. A lot of people weren't comfortable using the VGo
themselves, even though it was available for anyone. There are definite social
hurdles to overcome with some people.

I'd probably like the Double even more than the VGo, because it looks less
intrusive, has a larger screen thanks to the iPad, and the adjustable height
is a very big deal. I'm looking forward to having one in the future. Love the
price, too.

~~~
emelski
Interesting perspective as the remote user, but I wonder how your employees
felt about that setup. It was easier for _you_ to feel you had a cohesive
team, but did _they_ feel more cohesive for having a robotic you floating
around?

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jedc
So their biggest competitor is Anybots, but they're funded (through YC) by
Anybot's founder and going through YC in the same physical space as Anybots?

It strikes me that the main axis of competition is simply price. Otherwise it
just seems like co-opetition.

~~~
tlb
I'm no longer running Anybots, which has moved to new premises. I like both
products for different applications.

~~~
ph0rque
Do you have another startup in the works, or are you concentrating on YC full-
time?

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waterside81
For the reason that this is real technology and not just another
consumer/social/we'll figure out the business model later idea, I hope this
grows and becomes huge, or at the very least spawns some other applications.

In a week that NASA lands a robot on Mars, I'm glad to see real technology
being created, that perhaps looks crazy or inapplicable at first. Great stuff
guys.

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davidcann
Direct link to our site: <http://www.doublerobotics.com>

~~~
repsilat
The site says it charges with a wall adapter. This may be a silly question,
but can someone driving the Double manoeuvre it into "charging position", or
do you need fingers to plug it in?

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Qworg
The hardest part for telepresence robots is finding a market/use case to grow
in. Being cheaper is a great first step, but who are you selling to?

~~~
jgrahamc
I work remotely for CloudFlare. I wish we had one of these so that I could
attend meetings at the company or hang out at someone's desk.

~~~
Qworg
Right, but how will this be better than screensharing and teleconferencing?
I'm not trashing the technology - it is an extremely well done version of a
telepresence robot, combined with a spectacular price point. I'm worried that
they're not competing with who they think they are competing with.

~~~
jgrahamc
It means I can go into a meeting and 'sit' at a table with people and turn and
see what's being written on the whiteboard.

It's much better for me (because I can attend) and it's better than
screensharing and teleconferencing because the participants in SF do not have
to use some program to accommodate me.

~~~
tankbot
> and it's better than screensharing and teleconferencing because the
> participants in SF do not have to use some program to accommodate me.

This is huge. There's nothing worse than holding up an entire meeting while
someone struggles to connect to you via video chat while IT is in there
sweating bullets because a new driver/update is trying to install itself.

Removing this burden from others would be worth it to me.

~~~
Qworg
This isn't an argument for a telepresence robot - it is an argument for a
Cisco teleoffice installation. Having a robot adds a whole new layer of
complexity and issues.

~~~
nooneelse
Then after the official meeting, when attendees go out to the food table in
another room and the tele-attending people can't digitally follow them, I'm
sure the attendees will all just not discuss anything important, right?

Or "hey, Bob, I'm glad you could use the teleoffice installation to join us
today. Gosh, I wish I could have you with me tomorrow when I go across town to
check out a small factory. You know so much more about that stuff than me, but
unfortunately the tele-office is huge and all."

~~~
Qworg
First, I think you're overestimating how easily people will adapt to having
these robots around. I hope there's no stairs or elevators in between the
official meeting and the food table.

Second, does this small factory have high speed wifi? In my experience, that's
very rare.

You know what does work in these situations? Flying out to the meeting.

As a technologist and possible early adopter, it is really easy to see how
YOU'D use something. It is far harder to put yourself in the shoes of another
and judge it from their perspective.

That said, once telepresence robots are in place, they seem to be very sticky
- most people don't want to give them up. [1]

A key quote from [1]: "the greatest barrier keeping telerobotics from
conquering the office probably isn’t hardware or software, it’s red tape"

[1]: [http://singularityhub.com/2010/08/23/exclusive-head-of-
robod...](http://singularityhub.com/2010/08/23/exclusive-head-of-robodynamics-
reveals-the-hard-truth-about-telepresence-robots/)

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Gring
According to the article, they want to do it "the lean startup way".

So... why does it have to be self-balancing? Just add a third wheel and it's
always stable - no need for gyros and complicated electronics. And as a by-
product, you have immediately lowered the price massively: it's just a few
motors then instead of that balancing magic. My price lowering guess would be
between 50% and 80% lower. That would be really "the lean startup way" in my
book.

(Idea courtesy of
[http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=segway_more_complicated_t...](http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=segway_more_complicated_than_it_needs_to_be%20))

~~~
davidcann
Thanks for your thoughts, but the third wheel theory isn't actually true. We
investigated this, of course, and a third wheel without balancing provides a
pretty crummy and bumpy user experience. The key is reaching the magic human
height while keeping the base no larger than a human's foot prints. Look at
the VGo, they opted to limit their height to about 3' and add a third wheel,
but the driver is always looking up at people's stomachs and up people's
noses. It's awkward in a standing conversation and, even at that height, it's
a bit shaky riding around - not to mention the extra counterweight they need
to put in the base to weigh it down. Two wheeled, self balancing is simply a
more elegant solution all around.

Also the extra cost of the accelerometer and gyro is almost negligible these
days, thanks to smartphones requiring them to be made in such high volume. For
both together, it's maybe $20 or less in volume.

~~~
Gring
Interesting, that clears up my reservations, thanks!

I feel like the biggest issues might be missing ambient spatial awareness for
the user - with that non-wideangle lens and mono microphone you can't see the
whole environment at once, you have no idea where somebody is talking from,
and you cannot turn quickly enough to always track what's happening in a room,
if people are leaving/entering etc.. How do you plan to make the user feel
more "there"?

Also, micro-managing the movement of the bot would take up a lot of time that
I don't have to spend when I'm present locally. E.g. when I'm present myself,
I just look somewhere, then think "I want to go there" and it all happens
automatically. With the bot, I have to manually navigate around plants and
desks. It would be great if we could do the same thing with the bot: just
touch on the screen where you want to go, and the bot figures out the rest. Or
show a floor plan, touch where I want to go and the bot does it. Do you have
plans in this direction?

~~~
davidcann
Ah, I'm glad you see the potential of where this technology can go! Those are
all great ideas. "We have nothing to announce at this time."

~~~
Gring
Yep. Bring it down to $500 and I'll buy one!

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mirsadm
I'd find this difficult to tolerate at work. I can't imagine anybody
addressing me with one of these. Not only that I am certain no work place I
have worked at would ever buy something like this. And they're all happy to
spend thousands of dollars on things which would improve our productivity.

I was ready to dismiss the idea until I saw the end of the video. I think
outside of business/work it could be quite useful (as demonstrated by the art
gallery).

~~~
patdennis
The art gallery idea struck me as interesting at first.

On second thought, however, why would you want to look at art through a low
quality iPad camera when you could browse a website with high-res images of
the same stuff?

I'm not sure that usage would pass the gimmick test after the novelty wore
off.

~~~
mertd
Another complication is navigating through the museum without violating the
personal space of the visitors. I guess they could only be allowed in the
after hours but then how do you prevent the experience from deteriorating into
high-tech bunch bumper cars.

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retube
That's really neat, I think this has a number of uses and not just at work.

How does it stand up though? Is there an acceleramoter or similar powering a
balancing act?

~~~
Eduardo3rd
Yeah, probably a few gyroscopes/accelerometers.

I would guess that it is a beefed up version of something like this:
[http://blog.makezine.com/2012/03/28/an-inexpensive-self-
bala...](http://blog.makezine.com/2012/03/28/an-inexpensive-self-balancing-
robot/)

I like their tiny kickstand as a solution for keeping the thing upright
without draining the battery. I wonder if that deploys only when the bot is in
sleep mode, or if it can come out when someone is using it but "standing" in a
single spot for a prolonged period of time.

~~~
davidcann
Yes, that's right! Our very first prototype was using a 5 degree of freedom
IMU board from SparkFun.

Yes, the kickstands can be deployed manually during a call or automatically,
if the robot is sitting in one place for a long time. When the user attempts
to drive again, the kickstands instantly lift off the ground and the robot can
drive again.

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stcredzero
I had a related idea recently: Just hire a tall actress to carry around an
iPad running Facetime. (Perhaps with a custom shoulder-strap?) It's going to
be a bit longer before robots get up to the level of humans in terms of
versatility, social awareness, and attractiveness. Until then, using a human
would have certain advantages for a high-end solution.

------
Eduardo3rd
I'm excited to see some hardware concepts coming out of YC in the past couple
of years. I think that the lean startup model is starting to be much more
viable (vs 5 years ago) in the hardware space thanks to low cost prototyping
electronics, 3D printing, and small batch size manufacturing.

~~~
pg
There are a bunch of hardware startups in this batch. I'm not sure why. Could
be just random variation. But for whatever reason it's kind of the hardware
batch.

~~~
Eduardo3rd
That's great! Looking forward to hearing more about the others after demo day
rolls around.

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telepresencefan
Impressive design, both mechanical and graphic. Does anyone know who produced
the video?

~~~
Undertow10
Thanks! It was a collaboration between missioncm.com and cc-prod.com.

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zbowling
I built something like this 2 years ago at iOSDevCamp out of legos.
<http://zbowling.github.com/NXTRover/>

I love that of this was taped at TokBox :-)

~~~
davidcann
Nice, I love it. We started out super simple and just kept improving it and
making it taller.

------
willowgarage
For those who are interested, Suitable Technologies (from Willow Garage) will
be making an announcement next month:

<http://suitabletech.com>

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hornbaker
Check out the prototype, made public at WWDC over a year ago:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BXM9PYaXY0>

~~~
davidcann
Haha, yes, we've come a long way since then!

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technotony
Here's another competitor... looks like the home telepresense market might be
ripe and ready! <http://9thsense.com/>

~~~
kdsudac
Another competitor designed for industrial settings: <http://collaborate.io>

Disclaimer: I'm the founder

~~~
davidcann
That looks pretty cool. It looks like you nailed the precise zoom feature,
which is key for your use-case.

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portman
_> > It uses OpenTalk to essentially let you video chat with those people._

What is "OpenTalk"? I've never heard of that protocol/API/software before. And
Googling turns up nothing except some abandonware from 2009.
<http://download.cnet.com/OpenTalk/3000-2150_4-10568159.html>

~~~
monvural
It's actually OpenTok. Check it out here:
<http://tokbox.com/opentok/api/documentation>

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andysinclair
Cool concept, hope it does well.

Seems ironic that "They were actually developing a product that required
partnerships with Chinese manufacturers, and they found themselves
increasingly frustrated by the fact that they couldn’t keep an eye on the
project".

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corin_
Does the iPad need to be charged seperately, or can it recharge when the robot
is plugged in?

~~~
davidcann
Yes, to keep things simple, the iPad and robot communicate wirelessly, so the
iPad is currently charged separately.

~~~
tankbot
They should be integrated. You need to be able to 'park' this thing on a
charging pad and know that it will be there, fully charged when you need it.
Otherwise you're creating more work for someone at your remote site (assuming
there is someone there to create work for, these could probably be used at
unmanned sites with great success).

~~~
davidcann
Agreed and noted. "We have nothing to announce at this time" is our standard
response in a situation like this.

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yumraj
This is pretty darn cool and pretty darn freaky at the same time. It may want
to use both front and back cameras to see if someone is coming at it from the
back since it won't be able to get back up on its own. :o)

------
hnriot
So, it's a Segway with FaceTime? The main question is why? Even the video
can't seem to find a decent use case. The art gallery idea is ridiculous, why
would you physically control a robot that wanders an art gallery when the
gallery has a website? Also have you ever tried actually wandering around a
gallery? The robot wouldn't stand a chance. What happens when someone knocks
it over?

In the workplace this would just be embarrassing. Not to mention a security
threat, there's no way any serious corporation would allow roaming cameras in
their offices.

If I put my idealist hat on and try to imagine the future with these, I keep
coming back to those Segway videos of the hype of a new kind of city, a new
kind of transportation.

This really is a technology in search of a use case, that isn't already being
addressed. I read comments that say they would use these to attend meetings,
how does this robot compare to Cisco's video conferencing, or FaceTime or even
just calling in from the car/home. At work we use screen sharing and
audio/visual conferencing which seems to work just fine, and where it doesn't
it will evolve.

I'm wondering how this robot would push the elevator button to get to a
meeting on another floor? There are just so many problems with this idea, not
the least of which is who would actually buy one.

~~~
pg
It's been useful already. One of the founders was out of town at the last YC
dinner and but he participated in a conversation in the lobby with me and his
cofounder through a Double. He wouldn't have been able to if he'd been using a
standard teleconferencing setup, because it wasn't a pre-arranged meeting.

In my experience, many if not most of the most important conversations are not
pre-arranged meetings. If you use existing teleconferencing technology you
miss them all, and if you use a Double you don't. That's a qualitative change.

~~~
kdsudac
Pre-arranged meetings are the first thing that jumps into people's minds, but
do telecommuters really want to replicate the experience of being in meetings?
For me, one of the nicer aspects of telecommuting is I can call into meetings
and during portions of the meeting that don't apply to me (or are boring) I
can work (or surf the web).

On the other hand, people do have a love/hate relationship with meetings:
<http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120519462810425677.html>

I can buy into the importance of impromptu meetings. I wonder if the Double
team can figure out a way to market around impromptu vs pre-arranged meetings
and love/hate meetings without alienating too many people.

