
Ask HN: How to find a wife? - valueprop
There was a recent post on HN about marriage. An insightful hacker commented:<p>What ends up happening is sooner or later one ends up pulling dating partners from eccentric and probably unhealthy places. And the ones most willing to engage have their own reasons for seeking out a lonely programmer.<p>Generically, bad places to pull a spouse from: online dating sites&#x2F;apps, bars, concerts, large parties, etc. Just about anywhere that attracts people from a variety of social strata and offers zero curation for common values, education or habits of mind, and&#x2F;or doesn&#x27;t sort people in any way based on useful proxies for those things.
The trouble is that those sources are tempting if you are socially isolated (from the opposite gender) and perceive yourself to have few options, and&#x2F;or because you&#x27;re lazy or fatigued from the ever-frustrating chase.<p>Always bad? No. But the median outcome is going to be worse than with other, more enlightened dating strategies.<p>When asked what are some enlightened dating strategies, he replied: If I had a good answer for you, my own life might have gone differently.<p>I find myself in the same situation, and probably I&#x27;m not the only one. 37 years old, been 8 years at dancing classes &amp; parties (mostly salsa), which resulted in various short-term relationships.<p>What dating advice&#x2F;strategies do you have for software engineers aiming to establish a family? I&#x27;m even considering Facebook ads, with the risk of getting my face known by all single women in the city.<p>Much appreciated.
======
sharps_xp
Don't look for someone looking for you. Look for someone who wants the same
things in life as you, then ask them if they want to join you.

How are you supposed to find someone not looking for you but someone who wants
the same things in life as you? make friends and get to know them and
preferably in group settings. Your intention shouldn't be to make friends to
find a wife, but to truly just be friends. Naturally, one of them might become
your best friend.

After that, If they want the same things in life as you, it comes down to
convincing them that it's a great idea to marry you. This problem can probably
be its own Ask HN. Silver lining is if you fail to convince them, you probably
still keep them as a good friend because reality might hit you that you may
never establish a family, so the next best thing would be to fill your life
with people you love and build a "family" that way.

IMO, overcoming the friend zone with your best friend is a better problem to
have than just finding someone who will marry you and living the rest of your
life with them because if you solve the former, you have a better chance of a
happy life as opposed to your chances after solving the latter.

~~~
valueprop
Excellent perspective

------
lastofus
> But the median outcome is going to be worse than with other, more
> enlightened dating strategies.

Anecdata seems to suggest that dating websites work relatively well,
especially as they become more socially acceptable. I know several couples now
married who met through one. Also, [smallish] parties/social gatherings often
have friends of friends which tends to be a decent form of curation.

> And the ones most willing to engage have their own reasons for seeking out a
> lonely programmer. ... > What dating advice/strategies do you have for
> software engineers aiming to establish a family?

You are not your profession. If your identity is overly intertwined with your
profession, this could potentially be part of the problem.

At the end of the day you have to be an attractive human being (not just a
programmer!) that other people enjoy being around, including potential
partners. It may be time for some serious self-reflection to figure out what
is root cause of your loneliness, and what can be done to improve oneself to
fix this, to build relationships with both men and women, and not just a
spouse.

~~~
partisan
Completely agreed.

Dating and relationships are not problems to be solved. There is a fair amount
of serendipity in life that comes when you allow for experiences that you
would otherwise write off because of their outcomes. I am around @valueprop's
age and I know that as we get older, we get more set in our ways. We start to
trust in our ways and eschew other ways because, well, we are here and alive.
I know change is hard. And the world can be overwhelming for the introverted.

To make a new life, break out of your ways. Life can be absolutely
exhilarating when you do. And stop using the "lonely programmer" narrative.
There is someone out there in the world to whom that description appeals, but
those people are few and far between. Adopt a different label or two.
Passionate thinker. Great listener. Music lover. Avid swimmer. Rogue biker.
Uno strategist extraordinaire.

~~~
valueprop
Thank you and @lastofus

------
tzs
The obvious place to find a spouse [1] is at work, or at meetings and
gatherings related to your profession (e.g., technology conferences if you are
a programmer). There you will find people who are likely of similar
educational background and share at least some of your major interests.

Unfortunately that is also a minefield. There are too many people who consider
any admission that you would like to consider more than a professional
relationship to be harassment.

Church used to be a place that facilitated finding spouses. People would
regularly attend church, and make friends with a variety of people including
many married couples who shared the same basic values they did, and those
people would play matchmaker, providing introductions to their outside friends
and coworkers. Older couples from your church would set you up with nieces and
nephews, and so on.

I'd guess most software engineers here are not very religious and rarely, if
ever, attend church.

Getting fixed up by relatives also used to be a major way people found their
spouses, but I'd guess that most software engineers here are not living
anywhere near their relatives, so that avenue is closed.

I think that covers what used to be among the top ways people used to find
spouses. With these not working anymore for software engineers, I think we're
pretty much screwed in the mate department.

[1] I say "spouse" rather than "wife" because this also applies to women
seeking husbands.

~~~
shubhamjain
> There are too many people who consider any admission that you would like to
> consider more than a professional relationship to be harassment.

Ed Catmull gave an interesting perspective about it in his book "Creativity
Inc". He outlined that many of the Pixar's employees met their spouse at work
and how he was proud that many families couldn't have existed if Pixar wasn't
there.

------
throway_bayarea
Do you live in a big city? If so, the key is to get out of the
crowd/competition. I'd recommend you search at a 50-100 mile radius from where
you live. Drive away, make friends outside of town and go hang out with them.
Girls are so much better outside of the cities, less buddy-like, less self-
centric. More family oriented and also they won't play any game. Plenty of
pretty chicks in the middle of nowhere you'll be surprised. Also, you'll be
the outsider in the group. The guy who comes once in a while which will make
you more attractive and more desirable. Put your self in the right spot, it's
that simple.

~~~
taway_1212
> Drive away, make friends outside of town

It sounds like an alien concept in my culture (just making friends with
perfect strangers in a town you don't even live in ). I suspect it's different
in the US. How would you go about it?

~~~
throway_bayarea
A lot of people in the US have no problem meeting with strangers when they
first move to a new city.

How to meet girls at a 50-100 mile radius? It depends on your hobbies. Music,
sports, etc. Nothing stops you from joining a club, a band, a team 50 miles
away from your house. You need an entry point and you'll easily make new
friends. It's a logical thing, it's easier to make progress when you start
from scratch than when you're already up there. Plus, they know you don't know
anyone around so they'll take initiatives and invite you to join their
parties. You don't have to do anything basically just accept or refuse their
invites. It's a natural thing to bring in someone new instead of watching a
friend of a friend trying to stick in a party. And again, girls already know
all the dudes around, you'll be the center of attention... girls will turn
towards you not the same exact dudes they see every day.

------
Broken_Hippo
Those aren't the wrong places, as they work well for some folks. They've
simply not quite worked out for you yet. The truth is that everything is a
lottery, though.

I'd fully suggest doing social things that you are interested in. A fairly
genuine interest - things you would do without expecting a date. Or find some
new activities to try - especially things with a mixed group. This puts you in
touch with folks that have a common interest upfront. Sometimes the most
random places will find a lucky hit :)

I'll also say this: You don't necessarily need someone with a similar
education or habits of mind, merely one that compliments you or that you can
accept. Values are more important, but you won't really know some of those
upfront, only over time. The easiest way to solve this is to talk about some
of the things important to you early on, with some tact.

FWIW, my spouse and I met online .... playing a text-based RPG. We lived in
different countries, and have now been married nearly 4 years and together 9.
We talked about much of this stuff fairly early on. No children happened to be
important to both of us, for example.

------
inputcoffee
The place is not the filter, you are the filter.

You can meet someone anywhere, but you have to converse with them to see if
you are a fit (both single, similar education etc).

At most, you could wear a t-shirt to signal what kinds of things you like.
(Avoid Big Bang Theory).

------
tomcooks
I fail to understand how online dating or social events might be wrong places
where to find a person you love.

The "trick" is to use a bruteforce attack method: try meeting as many
potential candidates as possible, wnile reducing your resources shortcomings
(work out, learn skills, read books and watch movies, travel).

Learn to chit chat and be sociable, helps with engagement and retention of
potential candidates

------
Lordarminius
Ask your close friends, colleagues and relatives to introduce you to single
eligible women. You'll be surprised how effective this can be.

------
andrewingram
Ironically, my own experience and observations from salsa dancing have been
biased towards long-term relationships. There are so many happily-married,
engaged, or otherwise long-term couples in the London salsa scene.

Obviously there's plenty of short-term stuff too. But you kind of get out what
you put in. Other than the initial motivation to take classes in the first
place, I do salsa because I like salsa.

Surely the more important question you should be asking is why are you only
having short-term relationships when you want a long-term one? What's stopping
these relationships developing?

------
YuriNiyazov
"What dating advice/strategies do you have for software engineers aiming to
establish a family?"

This is such a weird question to ask. Why do male software engineers as a
profession need a special dating strategy? Because there aren't many women at
work to meet? That implies that work is a better place to meet partners than
bars/concerts/large parties. Maybe it sounds intuitively true, but in my
experience that is quite the opposite.

~~~
Lordarminius
> "What dating advice/strategies do you have for software engineers aiming to
> establish a family?"

Get off your computer and go out into the real world ? :|

------
doug1001
Willie Nelson--who must be an expert marriage because he's done it so many
times (at least four times)--once said that rather than get married again, he
would just save himself a lot of time and heartache by searching for the most
unpleasant woman he could find and then give her half of everything he owned.
YMMV

------
mattbgates
Almost 7 years ago, I had just gotten back from teaching English in Israel and
moved back home for a few months because I had no money and needed a job.
Literally $0 in my bank account. While I had a degree in psychology,
desperation set in, and I applied across the boards of Craigslist for
ANYTHING. Psychology-related jobs. Any job that required a Bachelors Degree, I
had applied for. It was a programming job for an autobody shop that answered.

I went in and got through my interview. They tested me on my math knowledge,
which I failed miserably, but they also tested me on my logic and my knowledge
of the programming language, which I aced. They ended up hiring me.

I had no car and before I left, I walked over to the saleswoman, touched her
hand, and said, "Hey, can I use your phone? I have to call my ride."

About 3 months later, and all the while, this woman had basically been
flirting with me and I was flirting with her, but I had no idea she was even
interested and I thought it was just casual office flirtation to deal with the
boredom. Anyways, on my birthday, she had gotten me a cake and asked me what I
was doing that night. I told her I was going to hang out with all the friends
I didn't have... and asked her if she'd like to come along. She agreed and
since I had no friends, she was the one who was there.

We ended up talking, flirting, buying drinks, and eventually making out. She
admitted ever since that day I had touched her hand that she wanted me. She
had been trying to get my attention ever since and trying to get me to ask her
out, even almost giving up at one point. I also feared that she was setting me
up to knock me down (sexual harassment), but that really wasn't the case
because she really did like me. Our job had a policy of no fraternizing with
co-workers and so we kept it a secret. Eventually, we ended up getting another
job because that boss was... well lets just not get into it. Fortunately, we
got the same job together doing the same thing, in web design. At this job,
our dating remained a secret for years.. before we finally let out the truth.

She's not technically my wife today, as we are experiencing financial issues
right now and getting married isn't the first thing on my mind to solve such
situations, but she has been my girlfriend for 5 years and then we got
engaged. I know this might be a rare situation, but it somehow worked out. I
think the workplace or college is a great place to meet people, but you also
risk it: We did have one stint in which we separated for a month due to
differences, but we casually dated again and realized how much we loved each
other. During that month, we still had to work together and it was miserable.

Before her, I really had no interest in dating at all. Going on dates was just
awful.. like setting up an interview and hoping for the best. Asking girls out
or even trying to recognize they were interested in me... yeah.. maybe I was
just stupid. There were girls I'd meet where I knew they could be "the one" ..
or they weren't. It was few and far in between... I think maybe only three
girls or so before meeting my current lady were like that. One I met in
college.. and I was so in love with her, and no matter what I did to let her
know, the love just wasn't reciprocated. Years later, once she found out I was
engaged, she took an interest in me, texted me, called me, wanted to hang
out... but before that... I was lucky to get any time of day with her. But its
too late for her.. and I wasn't going to lose what I have with my special one.
Definitely not worth the games at all. Our chance was in college... and it
never happened. Live, love, and learn. And then move on if you must.

My advice is this:

Don't look for love, but learn how to be observant. A girl who pays attention
to you may be interested in you. If she's playing with her hair, she really
likes you. She wants to know you and wants you to know her and be in her life
and in your life. Don't fear asking her out. Just ask her out. You have
absolutely nothing to lose. Really. Nothing to lose. If she rejects you, she
is just helping you find the right girl for you. If she gives you a chance,
don't try to be anyone but yourself. Don't be too weird. You can be weird
later when she is comfortable with you. Just be yourself. Learn how to have a
sense of humor in which you can make others and her laugh.

~~~
twobyfour
At the same time, please don't assume that every woman at the office who isn't
standoffish is into you. That kind of makes life hell for women who want to
develop effective friendly working relationships with their colleagues just
the same way men do.

~~~
mattbgates
Agreed. Sometimes women are just being nice and are not looking for a
boyfriend. So if you ask and they let you know they are not interested, or if
they have a boyfriend, or if they just aren't interested, than take that as a
sign for her letting you know: "Move on. I'm not interested. I'm letting you
know, so you don't have to waste your time on me."

That is why it probably took me so long to even recognize it.. 1) because I
didn't ask her out and get the rejection/acceptance (in fact, she thought I
was rejecting her) and 2) because I figured it was just a woman looking to
flirt with me because I was the cutest in the office (ha.. kidding). Though I
should have noticed too: the only one she was ever flirting with was me.

But it goes back to my statement of: Don't be weird.

I admit, I can definitely be weird. I have my moments. And they came out when
we were dating... and if that didn't scare her away, well.. nothing was going
to do that.

I also have to add to the story: She was older, had kids, smoked, ate fast
food, financially irresponsible, and was everything I wasn't looking for in a
woman. The odds were really against us. Why did we end up going out and liking
each other? Because we talked for like 2 hours and realized we had a lot in
common and liked each other. That "chemistry" where you just know is hard to
explain. We certainly have our moments of good and bad, but so does everyone.

She has since curbed her fast food intake and quit smoking. I have taught her
that she doesn't need to live paycheck to paycheck if she comes up with a
budget for herself and doesn't spend habitually and mindlessly. Having some
extra money in the bank is always a good thing. The kids.. they are now
adults.. still live with us, and we do get along. As for her age... her
maturity level matches mine and we basically grew up in the same generation,
if that makes any sense... ah, love the 80s!

So yeah, it wasn't just something that was instant. It really almost did not
happen, but it did. And both of our lives changed.. probably for the better.
And then there were things I had to get over, such as my acceptance of her
children, which came with time. Every time I left her place, I would have to
take a shower and wash my clothes because of her smoking habit. I didn't make
her quit and had told her: Please keep smoking if you are going to blame me
for making you quit. If she had kept at it though, we probably would've been
done a long time ago. I just didn't want to be with someone who had that
habit.

And I feel bad for thinking that, but again: Be with someone who you enjoy
being around and who is compatible with you and can at least make some changes
in their life to compromise with you. Of course, be willing to compromise
too... because no one comes without their annoying or bad habits. We all have
our thing. If you don't like smoking and cannot stand the smell and she loves
it, than let her do her... that's her choice and her life. You can either
accept it or reject her.

There are certainly many sacrifices we both made to be in each other's lives
since then, but nothing that has made us bitter towards each other. Changes
are small and take a while, but they do happen, even if only minor.

------
galfarragem
A brute force algorithm will do it:

    
    
      while True:
        speak_your_mind_as_much_as_possible_to(every_woman_you_meet)
        if empathy >= acceptable:
            break

------
JPLeRouzic
You discuss mostly about places, strategies but it is about emotions and human
beings, not business. If she is a women and you a man, she will take much more
risks than you. Forget strategies, try to be nice and perhaps more than
anything, be predictable: You must be trusted by her. That said, find an
equilibrium between what you drop and what you consider to be part of
yourself, learn to say "Yes" and learn to say "No".

------
sotojuan
Friends and social events, like people have been doing for centuries. There's
nothing special or different about programmers with regards to dating. It
might not be easy to find a partner, but it happens.

Note that I know a handful of happy marriages that began with online dating,
and there are some interesting apps like Bumble that try to shake up the
online dating paradigm.

Also you might wanna consider moving to NYC. Lots of single women here
apparently!

------
masquenada
I don't know. Why not try single moms or mail order?

------
siegel
Can I ask when you've devoted yourself to dancing classes/parties? Is it
because you really enjoy it, apart from meeting women? Or is that a strategy?

~~~
valueprop
I started after seeing a dance movie, and wanted to learn to dance like that.
I actually like it, and I often get compliments. And yes, dancing in clubs
makes it so easy to meet women, as I discovered later. It then slowly became a
strategy.

~~~
siegel
If you really enjoy it, then great. As long as you didn't keep at it for so
many years merely as a way to meet women.

But what else do you enjoy doing? There are meetups and organizations of
people doing almost any activity out there. Maybe explore some other interests
and find groups of people who do those things. You'll get exposed to a whole
different group of women that way.

------
brudgers
Why did the relationships wind up being short term?

~~~
valueprop
I'm too focused on physical aspect -- my mistake, but don't know how to change
that. I'm about to end a 9mo relationship with a girl that loves me, but I
can't pass over not finding her very attractive.

And the girls which are very attractive, don't find me attractive for them.

~~~
valueprop
Also, on the ones that were nice, I considered them without ambition, eg.
spending the weekend on Facebook (when not going out together), beauty salons,
superficial discussions with friends, while I'm always learning/reading/doing
sideprojects. Even though we discussed about it, we couldn't find a solution
for me just to accept this, rather than hoping they'd work on something more
meaningful.

~~~
jakobegger
It sounds like you have no respect for your partner(s). In the comment above
you said they weren't attractive; in this comment you said that what they like
to do is meaningless.

If you want to live in a long term relationship, you need to stop comparing
your partner to some arbitrary idea of what women should be like.

Respect your partner, and try to see the world from their point of view.
Different things are "meaningful" to different people. Don't get stuck on
whatever you consider to be your values.

Instead of dismissing your partners habits, try to learn more about them.
Learn why they like going to the beauty salon, ask them what it's like, find
out why this is meaningful to them.

------
atmosx
This is really not an advise or anything. I'm not an expert on relationships
although I had quite a few and met quite a few women who wanted a relationship
with me over the years. Of course many of them were driven by social
stereotypes that would make _me_ an overall good _draft_ pick.

You can't really _engineer_ a relationship. Approaching them with an
_engineering mindset_ is wrong and misleading in my view. That's why usually
we let _feelings_ decide what should happen and take risks.

If you're not a-sexual[1] then you must be attracted to a certain type of
woman. Usually men are attracted to sweat, good looking, smart, responsible
women. At least that's what works for me. But that's only the tip of the
iceberg. Relationships are marathons.

When you live with someone, the relationship goes on another level. You start
noticing things that you like and things you don't like. Your partner does the
same. There are also external factors that will affect in ways you can't tell:
Will your friends and family like her? What about her family? etc.

Believe me, a posteriori, every relationship seems like a poor choice. We
usually focus on what _we_ give to our partner but rarely contemplate what we
take back.

IMHO the bond between a couple must grow _organically_ and only _then_ been
taken care of. You need to fall in love with someone, respect him, etc. To the
very least you need to have strong feelings towards your partner. Otherwise,
there is no way in hell that I see a 37-year old male going through a
relationship with the solid foundations that are needed to get through the
relationship happily. As most married people will say, it's not always
sunshine and rainbows. I dare to say, it rarely is past the first 2 years.

Of course if you want a relationship that will end up in a divorce after 3
years, then I guess, things are a lot easier.

Relationships are not simple, nor static. Indeed IIRC Einstein or Tolstoy said
that _relationships are the most complicated thing I 've came across_. There
are _too many variables_. This means that there's no _perfect deal_ when
picking up a partner. I dare to say that it's very hard thing to predict how
an individual, male or female, will change and adapt to a relationship. People
seemingly different, get fine, while others who seem perfect for one another
do not.

Of course there are _very poor deals_ , e.g. You shouldn't pick a drug addict
or alcoholic partner. On other what if your partner had a predisposition in
alcohol that you never knew about and suddenly ends up being an alcoholic. You
give up, or keep on hanging? What do you do? A movie[2]!

I don't know. I can't stand being with someone who wouldn't give everything to
me. I need to take _everything_ and give back _everything_.

ps. To the brave who reached the end os this comment: hopefully I didn't sound
like an idiot in this post. If I did though let me know, for future reference,
I'll try to change my wording or keep quiet :-)

[11: AFAIK about 1% of the population is a-sexual meaning that it doesn't feel
any kind of _strong_ attraction to either sex.

[2]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6oxB257a7Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6oxB257a7Q)

~~~
valueprop
Thanks

------
sunmao
People have given you a lot of advice.

Here something more generic: First of all you have to improve yourself until
you know yourself enough to act like an adult.

What does this actually mean to be grown up? In my theory almost every people
in the world have some "spiritual/mental" illnesses. These illnesses are
actually origin from lot of places, like school time,
patterns/traumas/injuries taken over from parents and so on... It has also a
lot of to do with our ego.

But this is not terrible, because if you know yourself enough you will able
control these stuff and they won't poison your personality and the way how you
are interacting with other people. So this is what I mean under being grown up
and self-ware.

If you will be already on this level you will be able to find the right person
for you, more correctly it won't be an effort from your side, it will just
happen some time. At this level you will be able to see other people illnesses
and decide on your own wether you want a relationship with them or not.

The path to this level has lot of loss of illusions and pain at the beginning,
but it pays off.

I could write tons of pages about this topic since it's a separate science.
But I neither have the time nor the language skills to do it... :D

Instead of that I could advice you start with some psychology and some
zen/buddhism teachings. There are also plenty of TED talks about this topic.
And these are all belonging together! "Unfortunately" you can't just shrink
them down to the relationship/partnership topic.

You have to be also able to answer those question... like: \- Who am I? \-
What are my illusions? \- What does mean to be grown up? \- What are my
illnesses and where they are coming from? \- What does it mean to be alone? Is
it bad? \- What does in mean to me being happy? \- Why do I need a parter at
all?

And so on... Many many questions at the beginning.

So as you can see it's a complex topic and hard to answer your question. But
to summit up, first you have to focus on yourself and get known with your true
inner personality and stop focusing on finding somebody, because you have to
be able to be happy alone as well, the right partner is just a plus in your
life. You should not let depend your happiness on somebody (or something)
else, because the somebody else is not constant, so you can loose your
happiness extremely fast.

It's like depending your software on an npm repo which can be deleted anytime
and can broke your whole software. (Does it ring a bell? :D)

Here are some videos to start with:

[https://www.ted.com/talks/helen_fisher_tells_us_why_we_love_...](https://www.ted.com/talks/helen_fisher_tells_us_why_we_love_cheat)
[https://www.ted.com/talks/helen_fisher_studies_the_brain_in_...](https://www.ted.com/talks/helen_fisher_studies_the_brain_in_love)
[https://www.ted.com/talks/julian_baggini_is_there_a_real_you](https://www.ted.com/talks/julian_baggini_is_there_a_real_you)
[https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_asks_are_we_in_control_...](https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_asks_are_we_in_control_of_our_own_decisions)
[https://www.ted.com/talks/matthieu_ricard_on_the_habits_of_h...](https://www.ted.com/talks/matthieu_ricard_on_the_habits_of_happiness)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnLoToJVQH4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnLoToJVQH4)

And a book:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_People_Play_(book)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_People_Play_\(book\))

Very tough topics... And most of the people does not even consider to think
about these questions. But don't be thrilled if you get the taste of it you
won't stop with it. ;)

In my opinion without these stuffs you may find a girl for a short or a
midterm relationship, maybe you can even marry her, but most probably it won't
work for the longterm.

One important thing: Everything what I advised does not necessarily has to
anything with religion (it can, but not necessarily) it's more like philosophy
and knowledge of human nature.

I hope I could gave you some helpful advice regarding your problem and you
will find the most fitting path to you. :)

------
Boothroid
There seems to be an expectation prevalent that we will each meet our partner
via a serendipitous encounter with our soul mate, and the fact that it's
inevitable that a relationship waxes and wanes over time is often little
commented on. I would say firstly perhaps you need to adjust your expectations
which might help you refrain from terminating a relationship that could over
time develop into something lasting, and secondly why not look abroad? Ignore
the stigma. I suspect this originates from women that feel threatened by
beautiful foreign women, and men that are envious.

------
eip
If you live in SF women probably assume you are gay. If you take salsa classes
but don't look like a Spanish model women probably assume you are gay. Or
autistic.

Hit the gym until you don't have to look for women. They will find you.

Or if you don't like working out then try the renaissance fair. Or
goth/industrial clubs.

~~~
throwanem
> Or if you don't like working out then try the renaissance fair. Or
> goth/industrial clubs.

This is _terrible_ advice.

