
Apple is making a show based on Isaac Asimov’s ‘Foundation’ books - rbanffy
https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/10/apple-foundation-series/
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deng
I don't think that's a good idea.

There's not doubt that Asimov was pretty smart and there are a lot of
interesting ideas in the Foundation books. However, I don't think that those
will translate to the screen very well. Since the books span many centuries,
characters come and go and are mostly not very fleshed out or interesting.
Asimov is pretty similar to Lem in this regard, who also was much more
interested in ideas than people. Of course, a good screenwriter can make up
for that, but you can bet that people will be annoyed by all the additional
stuff that is not in the book (like in Soderberg's "Solaris", for instance).

So I'm much more thrilled about Amazon developing a series based on Banks'
"Consider Phlebas"...

~~~
fsloth
Well, Hari Seldon - a recording of him at least - is a constant presence.
There are lots of episodic tv series with varying cast. For example, Twilight
Zone, Black Glass, etc. I'm sure all of the ages treated in the series can be
fleshed out in sufficient detail to make for entertaining tv. As another
example, Tolkiens original lore is not exactly ... visual ... but it gained
lots of artist output in the decades between the publication of the series and
Jackson's movies. Jackson's movies own cinematically almost as much to the
artistic output by cadres of fantasy artists as much as to Tolkiens original
work.

~~~
rbanffy
Also, considering the prequels and sequels canon, there is R. Daneel who,
being older than the Galactic Empire (and, presumably, among its architects),
is certainly one of the most interesting characters in science fiction.

~~~
lawlessone
That goes back to a whole other series of books and small stories that many
now consider part of that whole universe.

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SwellJoe
I've been disappointed by nearly every film adaptation of Asimov novels. _I,
Robot_ and _Bicentennial Man_ had big budgets, but seemed like they were
written by people who simply didn't like Asimov at all and wanted nothing to
do with the kinds of stories he told.

So, I am extremely pessimistic, even though I would like to be excited about
this news. The team behind it also leaves me feeling ambivalent. On one hand,
it's a guy who has just made superhero movies (just the sort that would I
would expect to destroy a thinky story like _Foundation_ ) but also the guy
who made _The Sarah Connor Chronicles_ , which was actually pretty good
(though rarely as smart/deep as the cast deserved; Lena Heady, in particular).

I love that scifi TV and film is seeing such a resurgence, but I sure do hate
to see my favorites get butchered.

~~~
dingo_bat
I felt that the Will Smith movie was pretty good and true to Asimov's stories.
There is a common theme in Asimov's stories that he exploits loopholes in the
interpretation of the 3 laws. I robot the movie did that pretty faithfully. It
also hinted towards the advent of a robot like R Daneel, who would see beyond
the 3 laws.

The movie didn't adapt any particular book or short story, but that doesn't
mean it didn't try to be faithful to Asimov.

~~~
JshWright
The _I, Robot_ script started out as something entirely unrelated, and some
minor tweaks were made to "Asmovify" it after they got the rights for the _I,
Robot_ name.

In all of Asimov's robot short stories (including _I, Robot_ ), there was only
one instance of a robot that violated the Three Laws. That's far from a common
theme...

Yes, there was the 0th Law in Robots and Empire (that later appears in the
Foundation prequels), but that is a far more nuanced concept than the ideas in
the _I, Robot_ movie, where robots ran around killing and injuring humans
indiscriminately.

~~~
dingo_bat
> In all of Asimov's robot short stories (including I, Robot), there was only
> one instance of a robot that violated the Three Laws.

However, in _every single story_ , the robot(s) found a loophole in the laws
that resulted in going against the spirit of the laws. It's true that the
movie showed a very crude version vs the very nuanced take in the stories. But
I attribute that to the medium of film making itself.

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slivym
Well they certainly won't have to worry about running out of source
material...

I really hope this is good but they need to go full game of thrones in terms
of scope and adherence to the source material. I'm so tired of seeing "Based
on a story by Philip K Dick" and then basically seeing stereotypical sci-fi
with a romance plot thrown in and any trace of the original message of the
story removed.

------
elvinyung
For the record: HBO was apparently supposed to do this a couple years ago [1].

I wonder how well the Foundation books will translate to the screen. Given the
segmented format of the first three Foundation novels, it almost seems like a
mockumentary-style exposition would be necessary (which could preserve things
like the cool _Encyclopedia Galactica_ quote epigraphs).

[1] [http://www.player.one/foundation-tv-show-whatever-
happened-h...](http://www.player.one/foundation-tv-show-whatever-happened-
hbos-foundation-series-adaptation-546011)

~~~
rotorblade
I have it a bit mixed up in my head, but yeah, Sony announced they would do
one abandoned it, and then HBO bought it and announced it and abandoned it. So
this would be the third step (but I seem to have a memory of that this has
been going on a lot longer).

[https://hbowatch.com/hbo-acquires-asimovs-foundation-
series-...](https://hbowatch.com/hbo-acquires-asimovs-foundation-series-
rights/)

------
narrator
I think one thing that is missing from modern Hollywood sci-fi is the feeling
of the vastness and emptyness of space. Foundation certainly had that. It
seems like everywhere they go in new sci-fi is crowded. Maybe this is because
the overcrowded eco-doom dystopia trope is so deeply embedded in our culture
recently or it could be because there's too much temptation to use CGI to
create baroque environments.

~~~
amelius
I'm confused. Once you develop technology to travel to a bunch of different
star-systems in a lifetime, space isn't so "vast" anymore.

~~~
gambiting
In foundation, the "vastness" came from the fact that humanity has colonized
thousands if not hundreds of thousands of planets, to a point where the
location of the "origin" of humanity(Earth) and first colonies became lost to
history and myths. When the plot revolves around finding this mythical and
ancient "Earth" planet, one of the issues is that it would take them thousands
of years to visit every inhabited solar system in our galaxy, and that's
assuming that the records indicating their positions were accurate. In that
way, yes, you could "warp" from one system to another in days, but the galaxy
is still incredibly vast and largely unknown. It's just like right now you
could hop on a plane and reach pretty much any point on this planet within say
72 hours, but it's still an incredibly vast place and if you were looking for
something it's inconceivable you could visit every city on Earth to find it.

------
jws
The Foundation could use modernization. The "big ideas" are still interesting,
but the nuts and bolts of putting characters in a world to act out a story has
them inadvertently soaked in late 1940's United States culture.

I have failed to interest young people in the book, they seem to be put off by
virtually all of the characters being cigar or pipe smoking men with females
relegated to the secretarial positions where they are summoned by the very
modern push button on a desk. I think there is also the very modern push
button on the floor of the office which closes the door.

As a story it now suffers from what to modern readers are inadvertent
anachronisms. Asimov seems to have meant to write _" Here we are, maybe 15
minutes in the future and off we go into the stars and centuries beyond!"_,
instead we've got _" Once society regresses to a state which oppresses half
the population and is reduced to primitive pre-electronic technology we can
finally get on with a grand future!"_

A TV series which starts 15 minutes in _our_ future and presents the same
ideas could be a fine framework to fill with characters people care about, but
something other than world war two era United States industrialists please.

~~~
unethical_ban
Wasn't the main character who eventually discovers the secrets a the end of
the book a female?

Also, was the book really meant to be Utopian in tone? I thought it was just a
good space story, one of my most enjoyable reads ever (I read it when I was
23).

~~~
jws
Yes, there are significant female characters, I think primarily academics
which in context are the most important kind of people.

I didn't notice anything off when I first read it, but that was in the 1970s
and I was a young studious male. I remembered it as a fun space story and one
which glorified researchers and academics as important over generals and
politicians… which probably is a lot of the appeal to a certain audience.

I think now it's sort of like watching space movies from the 1950s. Model
spaceships swinging along on wires in front of a painting and zippers up the
back of the alien monster's skin were the norm then and just ignored, now they
are moment ruining features.

------
peter303
Bravo! I have always wondered why people avoided the classic scifi novels.
Often many of these where cerebral- more philosophy than action. But as far
back as Twilight Zone and Outer Limits showed you could sucessfully film
philosophical scfi.

Instead we end up with endless comic book treatments. I dont not want to see
the fourth origin story of Spiderman, Superman or Batman. However, I have to
concede with a good script and director, these sometimes work.

I wish I could see more more Heinlein on film, e.g. Have Spacesuit, Will
Travel and Stranger in a Strange Land. Partial treatments were in The Last
Starfigher and Star Treks What of Charlie.

~~~
mattmanser
Well, the early Foundation books are pretty 'of their time'.

In either the first or second book I seem to remember one of the only female
characters is depicted succeeding despite being a woman. Which is a very 50s
view.

Same with Heinlein, almost all the women in stranger in a strange land are
cringe worthy. They literally play in the pool all day long and are basically
sexual playthings for the men.

I read (in the case of Asimov, re-read) both a couple of years ago, they've
really aged poorly. While the concepts are cool, much of the stories would
have to be rewritten or you'll have some real cognitive dissonance with the
female parts.

The later Asimov books and prequels are better as they were written in the
80s. But then they suffer from his retconning of bringing all his series
together. I don't know what others think about it as I read most of them
before the internet, but I felt it was very contrived.

~~~
yoz-y
I have just recently started listening to the audiobook versions (currently at
the third) and the absence of any female characters is extremely jarring. The
first book only has one and it is "somebody's unhappy wife, who promptly stops
complaining when presented with a shiny jewel". Second book at least has one
active character.

I agree that the adaptation will have to be adapted a lot in order to be shown
today. I wouldn't even mind if they modified the society structure a bit (or a
lot) in order to make the initial premise more believable.

~~~
foobar1962
The reboot of Battlestar Galactica had a female Starbuck and it worked. One of
my fav series (I never saw the original).

~~~
chrisweekly
+1, female Starbuck worked great

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sizzzzlerz
It will end up being a shoot-em-up clone of Star Wars. All the psychological
aspects of the books just won't be interesting enough to mask the fact that
there is essentially no action or excitement or romance. They'll probably turn
Harry Seldon into sort of a Yoda character. Using the precepts of
psychohistory, what a few people will think about the film is unpredictable
but as a population of movie goers, it will be boring and unintelligible.

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zabana
With all the altered carbon hype on Netflix, I'm surprised nobody attempted to
adapt Neuromancer.

~~~
mattkevan
Think Johnny Mnemonic pretty much sank any other Gibson adaptation - and the
Matrix 'borrowed' so much from Neuromancer they'd be very similar.

Though I'd love to see a series based on the Bridge trilogy. And his version
of Alien 3 would have been fascinating.

~~~
chrisweekly
Speaking of the Matrix, years ago I stumbled upon The Animatrix which was a
surprisingly good set of animated shorts set in the world of the Matrix. My
favorite one provided backstory on the robot holocaust (inflicted by humans on
their sentient silicon-based slaves), that led to the collapse and reversal
found in the main series. Highly recommended!

~~~
garmaine
Fun fact: the sequels were _supposed_ to be experienced by first watching _The
Animatrix_ , then playing the video game _Enter the Matrix_ , then watching
the 2nd and 3rd films. Try it sometime (if you can still find the game): it
results in a much better experience.

There's a lot of weirdly introduced characters in the 2nd film especially that
leave you thinking "wtf was that there for?" but were actually the
continuation / conclusion / intersection of storylines started in one of the
animatrix shorts (e.g. the kid) or the game (the other crew).

~~~
don_loemax
Also The Animatrix soundtrack was fire to my middle school ears. That specific
robit revolution one definitely opened me up to anime-style stuff for the
first time. There was also a book called "zen and the matrix" or something
similar that had a bunch of essays which blew my 12 year old mind. I dropped
out of my catholic confirmation course due to it! Forgot how much that
influenced me.

~~~
garmaine
You should read some Alistair Reynolds (sci-fi) and Daniel Dennett
(philosophy). You'd get a lot out of it I think.

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ThirdFoundation
There's something about the Asimov books that make the mundane interesting. I
loved the planning aspect of the foundation's millennia long plan. I'm dubious
how a book that focuses so much on slow progress progress and averting major
crisis will translate to TV.

(And I obviously love the novels, so I'm a bit biased)

~~~
stormbrew
The novels, especially the first couple, are honestly pretty episodic. Given
that they were published as magazine serials before they were books that's not
surprising. But each section of the story deals with a self-contained crisis
within the context of the arcing narrative, which imo fits pretty nicely into
modern tv storytelling.

~~~
mturmon
I recently re-read _Foundation_ (only the first) with my kid, and I have to
agree. The initial chapters with Hari Seldon, and the later segments with
Salvor Hardin and Hober Mallow, fit exactly the mold you mentioned. They even
call the episodes "Seldon Crises". The characters, as always with Asimov, are
a bit overdrawn, but there are some gems there as well.

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hoodoof
Off topic but it would be nice is sci fi could be made in which not every
scene had to be the most amazing, innovative, creative, eye popping visual
you've ever seen. Story might become the star then.

~~~
TuringTest
You may enjoy the adaptations of Stanislaw Lem books, then :-P

Only half-serious, since they pretty much go to the opposite extreme.

~~~
mattkevan
I love the fact that Solaris skips the whole getting to the space station bit
- endless shots of Russian motorways, then suddenly we're there. Contrast to
2001 where getting to the moon is a significant chunk of the film.

------
hoodoof
I'm a huge sci fi fan (anyone on HN who is not?) and gave Foundation a go, and
found it to have flashes of brilliance but overall to be lifeless and frankly
pretty boring.

It's hard to describe but the stories seemed to be not more than sketches
without richness or detail, and many of the potentially interesting ideas were
never fully explored.

To be fair, there was something strangely appealing about it, and by the end I
found I quite liked it even with its flaws - probably because there were some
really imaginative concepts underneath (the Foundation I suppose).

~~~
sdrothrock
> It's hard to describe but the stories seemed to be not more than sketches
> without richness or detail, and many of the potentially interesting ideas
> were never fully explored.

This could probably be attributed to its pulp origins -- it wasn't originally
a set of novels, but a bunch of pulp serials that were in the same universe.

~~~
cup-of-tea
Yeah. It can't really be compared to something like _Dune_. It's a different
format. Although I love _Dune_ , I read most of my science fiction in short
story format, so _Foundation_ seems normal to me.

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72deluxe
I thoroughly enjoyed the Asimov Foundation series (all of them, not just the
original trilogy) and often wondered why nobody made a film about them. I
think it'd be tricky to do them justice (a slow exploratory pace would be
good) and hopefully not Hollywood-style like I Robot turned out to be
(compared to the book).

I suppose not many people would flock to the cinema for slow scifi though (but
then Blade Runner 2049 did alright...)

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caio1982
If someone managed to make a lot of cash and success adapting LOTR (for a long
time thought to be "impossible" to adapt to big screens) someone can equally
adapt Foundation, given a bit of space for fixing quirks and changing a few
things here and there. Let's remain skeptical, alright, but this is actually
pretty awesome news if true and I certainly hope for the best.

~~~
justherefortart
I love Foundation but it is dry as hell compared to what most people expect
from TV/Movies today.

If they made it like the books, those of us that have read it would probably
love it, but I doubt it would be popular.

~~~
arbie
This is my biggest concern about the adaptation. The mathematical influence of
psychohistory is very important. Take it away, and the Foundation's expansion
seems like chance or manifest destiny.

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thom
It seems like fertile ground for a series about psychohistory, that Cambridge
Analytica et al have been in the news.

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godelmachine
If there's any Sci-Fi story that will easily adapt to the screen, its gonna be
"Permutation City"

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adamnemecek
Makes sense. Can't wait for the shows based on Cocoa and UIKit.

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dalore
Anyone else feel that now with tracking users to the extend of CA and the user
prediction software that it's getting into the realms of Hari Seldon? And not
only track what's going to happen, but also shape society with posts timed at
the right time, and sent to the right people to nudge society into certain
paths. We already see it with what happened to voting.

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dingo_bat
Foundation is my favorite book series ever. I hope they do it justice.
However, if they make it exclusive to iTunes I'll torrent it :)

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laacz
Actually I'm waiting for Red Mars trilogy. Yes, it has that teen fiction vibe,
yet CGI should be spectacular.

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jmull
I wouldn't exactly bet on this being great, or even good.

But I'm damn happy it's being attempted. Here's hoping I'm surprised!
(Pleasantly surprised, I mean.)

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dmitriid
And yet, the (full) book series isn't available on iBooks. Most likely to
distribution and licensing rights. What a future to live in!

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drmpeg
The Mule should be played by Donald Trump.

~~~
kwoff
[https://www.theburningplatform.com/2017/03/27/foundation-
and...](https://www.theburningplatform.com/2017/03/27/foundation-and-empire-
is-donald-trump-the-mule/)

------
ericflo
I wonder if you will be able to watch this if you don't use Apple hardware.

~~~
knolan
Well Apple Music is available on Android and you can also access it via iTunes
on Windows. Current Apple original video content is accessed via Apple Music
(and third party movies via the iTunes store) so it’s probably going to be one
of those options.

Personally I pay €15 per month for an Apple Music family plan because at the
time it was cheaper than Spotify and it works well enough for me. Hopefully
Apple’s new video services becomes part of that same subscription but with the
mess of their iCloud storage options I won’t hold my breath.

~~~
espadrine
What is the recommended way on a traditional Linux desktop? Apple Music on
iTunes on Wine?

(I really enjoy the books, so I would like to experience that adaptation.)

~~~
knolan
I’m sorry, I’ve no experience with running iTunes on Wine. I suppose you could
use a VM.

------
yborg
I'd like Apple to make a new Mac Mini.

They should just spin out what's left of their computing hardware and
operating system business, this segment is as vestigial as the appendix to the
company now.

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dep_b
At least the books aren't offensive in any way so they don't have to be
neutered to conform to Apple's standard of family friendly.

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TheForumTroll
"Only available if you sell your soul"

