
Chinese, Taiwanese Restaurants Drop 'Golden' and 'Dragon'-Take on Mandarin Names - pseudolus
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/27/568413720/dropping-wok-and-panda-chinese-restaurants-take-on-mandarin-names
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United857
I can see the thinking behind the move -- embracing their identity -- but the
thing with pinyin is that's not always intuitive for English speakers who've
not learned it explicitly.

For instance, take the common New Year greeting 恭喜發財, romanized in pinyin as
"Gong Xi Fa Cai". "Xi" in pinyin is pronounced somewhat like "she" in English,
but someone who doesn't know will intuitively try to say "eks-ee" or "eks-eye"
which is incomprehensible to a native Chinese. Likewise, "Cai" is like "tz" \+
"eye", but someone might try to say "Kai" as in the pronunciation of "Cairo".

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geowwy
Taiwan used to have an official Romanization system called MPSII. I wish they
pushed it harder because it's a lot easier for non-Mandarin-speakers to get
right.

• "Gong Xi Fa Cai" becomes "Gung Shi Fa Tsai"

• "Xiaomi" becomes "Shiau-mi"

• "Jiu" (pronounced like "Joe") becomes "Jiou"

• "Qu" (pronounced like "chew") becomes "Chu"

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PhasmaFelis
I always wondered why Romanization was done the way it was. Someone had the
unprecedented opportunity to build a system from whole cloth where everything
was pronounced just like it sounded, and _completely_ fucked it up.

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geowwy
The goal of Pinyin was to be a pronunciation guide for Chinese people who have
no preconceived ideas about what letters make what sounds. It works great for
that. The problem is when foreigners try to pronounce Pinyin using their
existing knowledge of the Latin alphabet. Inevitably they end up pronouncing
"Xiaomi" as "Jow-me", etc!

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Zarel
I think this isn't giving Pinyin enough credit.

The biggest problem with English pronunciation, and the biggest reason
everyone says English spelling is a mess, is the Great Vowel Shift:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift)

So when you're writing a sound in the Latin alphabet, you have two choices:

\- spell it like English (the only language with spelling so confusing,
spelling bees are a thing)

\- or spell it like every other language (relatively consistent)

Pinyin... chose to be consistent, like every other language.

A lot of the other weirdness is based on other languages, too: for instance,
"x" is pronounced "sh" is Portuguese as well.

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geowwy
I'm not saying saying use English vowels or anything like that, I just mean
they could have used the letters in more standard ways like MPSII does.

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ajmurmann
By what "standard". Many pinyin pronunciations are close to standard for many
European languages expect English. On top of that Mandarin has multiple
similar sounds (in pinyin presented as "x", "sh", "j" and "q") that would
force you to get a little more creative.

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Camillo
Most of the ideas listed in the article seem quite unlikely to me. I very much
doubt that the 53k people studying Mandarin have anything to do with it, for
instance, or that it makes us "ready to engage mainland China" (lol, what?).

It may be more interesting to compare with other ethnic cuisines. Foreign
language names for restaurants have been very common for years, including for
other Asian cuisines (e.g. Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese, Korean). When you look
at it that way, the Chinese restaurant scene actually seems to be a late
arrival to this trend.

I think this represents a deliberate break in branding with the previous
Chinese restaurant tradition. Maybe it's to signify a difference in cuisine
(authentic Chinese vs. American Chinese?). Or an ethnic difference (like the
article mentions, more Northern Chinese who speak Mandarin, vs. the old
immigrants who spoke Cantonese or Taishanese).

Or perhaps younger restaurateurs actually have a more "American" ear, and now
feel that names like "Golden Dragon" sound kind of goofy. In the article, Mr.
Huang actually says that he looked at names like "Sauce" or "Hearth" first,
which are typical trendy names of the moment for an American restaurant. So,
paradoxically, the use of Chinese names may actually be due to the owners
being more Americanized.

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learc83
I'd like to see more Chinese restaurants offering more authentic dishes. Sure
most strip mall Chinese places need to have the American Chinese food staples
because people expect it, but I think they might also have some success
putting a few of the off-menu authentic Chinese dishes on the menu.

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azurezyq
Not sure where you are. But in Bay area, American Chinese cuisine and
authentic Chinese cuisine are different genres. As a Chinese I never go to the
former unless I have to.

Better to ask your Chinese colleagues for suggestion.

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mark-r
Dim Sum in Chinatown is a revelation. Have the property values in SF destroyed
Chinatown yet?

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azurezyq
Go to the South Bay or the east Bay, that's where the new generation of
Chinese work and live.

SF's China Town doesn't matter much now. Similar to LA's, where most good
Chinese restaurants are outside Chinatown.

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mark-r
Thanks for the hints, I'll definitely check that out next time I visit.

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autarch
There was a Taiwanese-owned restaurant here in Minneapolis for many years
called Evergreen, which is a _very_ Taiwanese name, just translated into
English.

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mark-r
I have some friends who many years ago threatened to make a Chinese restaurant
name generator. Take about 20 words and just pick a pair at random. Jade
Dragon, Peking Pagoda, Dragon Palace, etc. It was funny because it would have
worked.

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mc32
Next up, drop “Best”, “Gourmet”, “Jade” snd “Garden”. Funny enough even in
China and Taiwan you see “Golden” (Ex. Golden Bowl Soup) in restaurant names,
though perhaps not the same frequency.

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azurezyq
In China, some restaurant named after these words but those are really because
the owners like the good meanings behind these words.

Actually these days people tend to not use these because they look pretty
silly and antique.

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danso
I wonder if the common trend for Vietnamese restaursnts to have Vietnamese
words in their names is as much about cultural pride as it is that there are
so many possibilities for puns, e.g Pho Real, Pho King, Pho Keene Great, Un
Pho Gettable, Bun Me.

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rough-sea
If you’re interested in these sorts of topics - feast meets west is a great
nerdy podcast about the Asian food scene in nyc
[http://feastmeetswest.com](http://feastmeetswest.com)

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Pristina
I think the main reason is that foreign word went from being foreign to being
fashionable. People love to use foreign word when talking about food because
it makes them sound knowledgeable and well travelled.

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jhobag
[https://instagram.com/mrchow](https://instagram.com/mrchow) is a good exanple
of a restaurant without the dated golden dragon phoenix motif

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jpatokal
I had the misfortune of eating here last week, with some colleagues visiting
from mainland China at that, and unfortunately the food is Panda Express level
crud. It's still very much American Chinese food for white people, just in
flashy surroundings.

