
Ask HN: Delivery guy is a chemist with 2 teenage kids. Can this happen to me? - lighttower
As I was schlepping boxes with a man 15 years my senior from curbside up to my unit for a $25 tip, we were talking about how back at UofA he developed a 5 carbon ring synthesis method that uses free radicals to protect functional groups.  He told me of his kids one finished grade 12 math in grade 10. How is this possible, in fact common, that the lowest paid people in society often have advanced degrees?  I&#x27;m terrified that I&#x27;m going to end up the same way.
======
chrisbennet
I don’t know how common it is but a chemist friend of mine retired early. His
situation was his company was bought and layed off people, he survived. That
company was bought, he survived. The 3rd time this happened, he didn’t
survive.

Add ageism to the mix and I think it’s quite likely you will be out a job
before you are ready to retire.

These guys that are saying “maybe he wanted to shlep boxes” are whistling past
the graveyard because they don’t want to believe it could happen to them.

------
intopieces
I wouldn't call it common. People with advanced degrees are less likely to end
up in low paying jobs: [https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-
reports/valueofcollegemajors/](https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-
reports/valueofcollegemajors/)

But, it can happen for a variety of reasons, including mental illness, illness
or other issues with family that result in the loss of a position. Did you ask
this delivery guy why he's doing this job if he used to be a chemist? Believe
it or not, sometimes people get tired of doing these kinds of jobs and decide
instead to do something less stressful. I don't know how old "15 years your
senior" is in this instance, but it could be a retirement job or a side hustle
to get him through a rough patch. Who knows.

Can it happen to you? Certainly, it could happen to anyone without
generational wealth. That is, if you don't have 6 figures invested and
generating passive income, you could very well end up doing a low paid job for
a long time. Plan accordingly: network, keep up to date with hot skills,
and/or marry rich.

~~~
negativez
You need about 8 figures generating passive income by most estimates.

~~~
rjf72
Not sure what "most estimates" means but that'd be $400k a year in passive
income assuming the smallest possible number and an extremely conservative 4%
return -- index funds have been hitting longterm returns around 10%.

Suffice to say, by your passive income alone you'd be in the top 1% of all
American earners.

------
fucking_tragedy
Tech is experiencing probably the biggest boom we've ever witnessed. What
we're experiencing completely blows away the dot-com bubble.

If you need to trade your labor in order to keep a roof over your head, you
are in the same boat as any other person who needs to do the same, no matter
the sector or role. The overall trend for labor has been that of stagnation,
undercutting via contracting and outsourcing, and replacement.

Companies at the forefront of our industry have colluded to keep engineer
compensation artificially low. They were prosecuted for it and lost[1]. Some
of those involved who colluded to keep engineer pay low were Google, Apple,
Intuit, Pixar, Adobe and Lucasfilm.

At the end of the day, monied interests are actively trying to ensure that you
are paid as little as possible for the work you produce. Your fear is not
unfounded.

Such a predicament raises questions: What can we, as laborers, do about it?
Well, if we look at history, unions were successful at winning things that we
all enjoy, like the 40 hour work week and the weekend. Perhaps tech is due for
a renewed interested in unionization or guilds.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-
Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-
Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation)

~~~
farisjarrah
I always wondered about this... What if those big tech giants such as
Facebook, Microsoft and Google are pushing coding bootcamps and coding
education at such a young age in order to dramatically reduce labor costs in
like the next 10-20 years.

~~~
thatoneuser
Oh there's zero question that what they're doing. They are greedy and they
aren't satisfied with the amount they have.

------
billwear
Start of my junior year in chemistry at Alabama, went in to talk to my adviser
(his fifth year teaching there). He was sweating over paperwork, said it was
the first time he made enough to file a tax return. I said, "Excuse me, I've
got to go change my major." And I did. Never looked back.

~~~
syedkarim
That doesn't make sense. I thought the IRS required tax returns to be filed
for any amount of income over $600.

~~~
rayiner
Nope. It’s $12,000 for 2018.

~~~
billwear
It was actually pretty close to that at that time; at one point I thought it
was like $16,000, but I'm not sure.

------
anigbrowl
Short answer, yes, it absolutely can. The reason they call it a rat race is
that if you stop running (producing at a certain level) you will likely be
thrown off the treadmill.

~~~
craftyguy
Or, perhaps the added stress (both to them and home life) was more than they
wanted and they decided to stop running and go for a nice easy walk in the
park.

~~~
anigbrowl
That'd be nice, but but raising a family on a package delivery driver's income
doesn't seem like a walk in the park either. I don't want to go off on a
political tangent but I've always been struck by how capitalism is presented
as both the great multiplier of wealth _and_ the remorseless driver of
competition and unyielding bottom lines.

~~~
billwear
Honestly, if we can ditch the myopic "quarterly perspectives," I think we can
improve some, though the bottom's still gonna be what it is.

------
linuxftw
> How is this possible, in fact common, that the lowest paid people in society
> often have advanced degrees?

I assure you, this is not the case in the US. The lowest paid people in
society don't often have advanced degrees. They often have no degree or even
high school education. Do some people with advanced degrees have low paying
jobs? Yes. But I wouldn't say it's 'often' compared to low paid people as a
whole.

------
thatoneuser
Of course it can. Fancy advanced degrees aren't worth anything - that's just
the lie colleges tell you so you'll part with more money. You're supposed to
be the valuable part. If you aren't valuable, no matter what that means in
your modern market, then you could be living in the streets.

~~~
thelasthuman
And so the truth is laid bare.

Capital > humanity

This is why people is not free to move where they can find the most benefit,
but capital is.

Priorities.

~~~
yesenadam
You could equally interpret that as character > money, like I did. And take
heart that $ can't buy everything.

~~~
twoquestions
Ok, who at the _what_?

Character can't conjure a peanut butter sandwich or rent for an apartment,
what do you mean?

------
hluska
Whenever I see things like this, I wonder about traumatic medical events. That
thought wouldn't occur to me, but when my heart condition was in full force,
one of my best friends on the cardiac unit was a severely overweight engineer.

We both reacted to medical trauma in different ways. He decided that he was
going to quit his job and live out his days doing something physical. He
thought he might get a job doing construction, stocking shelves, or anything
where he would have to exercise. He wagered that it was worth taking an 80%
pay cut to live for five more years. He was so serious about it that he was
even asking if I thought he should keep his P.Eng on an application to work in
construction. I didn't understand my heart condition or the lead up to it. So,
the day after I got out of the hospital, I bought a pack of cigarettes and
started smoking.

Of the people who I have stayed in touch with, not many of us have kept up
with our post release resolutions. I quit smoking after about six months and
took up running. One buddy took a partial early retirement and only works
three days a week now. So, maybe medical trauma has absolutely nothing to do
with any of these really major life changes. But to this day, whenever I hear
of a story like that, I'm reminded of my friend who decided to trade in a very
good engineering job for a gig in construction...

------
lucas_membrane
There was a survey in Silicon Valley some years ago that showed that this kind
of fear goes pretty far up, plenty of millionaires fear falling off the gravy
train.

I do my family's grocery shopping, and I have several times noticed new clerks
at the checkout, men in the 40-65 age range who are a little too well dressed
-- very nicely ironed and starched white shirts, fashionable ties and watches.
They seldom become fixtures in their new positions; which way they go, IDK.

~~~
lighttower
I'm the OP. I'm CEO of a small biotech company. I'm terrified, constantly, of
falling of the ladder, and never again be trusted to do anything of value
again. I worry that I won't be young much longer and if this one doesn't go
out of the ballpark then it's game over. I'll be at Trader Joe's bagging your
groceries.

Edit: Began as EE, hence my connection to HN . There isn't anything close to
this community anywhere else.

~~~
FiatLuxDave
I've failed before, so here is the perspective of someone else who "fell off
the ladder".

It is good to be a little scared of failure. But you don't need to be
terrified. If you are still young, you will have time to recover. It may have
its bad moments
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13445141](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13445141)).
If failure looks imminent, make a plan B. But you don't need to live in fear.

Instead, look at what other lessons you can take from meeting the box-lifting
chemist. Here is a guy with an advanced degree in chemistry who is working for
peanuts. This could be an opportunity for you and him. When I was bankrupt, a
complete chance encounter led to the job that pulled me out of that situation.
I was having no luck getting a technical job. But while I was getting a
haircut for another failed job interview, I told the hairstylist how difficult
it was to find a job as a physicist. And she said, "Oh, I know a guy who is
looking for physicists". She gave my number to a physicist who ran a small
company. He hired me and it was a mutually rewarding relationship. He also
hired other down-on-their-luck physicists and programmers. One of the current
directors of the company was notably hired when the company founder met him as
his waiter in a Chinese restaurant. By keeping his eyes open, this founder got
great talent at a good price and now his company pulls in over $50M/yr
revenue.

If things go bad, maybe you'll meet someone who pulls you back up while
working at Trader Joes. If things go well, maybe you will be the person who
pulls someone up.

~~~
lighttower
Thank you for this. I also read your previous post that you linked to.

------
d-sc
Producting things that make people willing to pay you money can be very
different than the skills emphasized in advanced degrees.

As long as you understand how you bring value to others, you’ll probably be
fine. Conversely if you don’t, one job loss could knock you out.

------
Ancalagon
Is this UofA as in University of Arizona? As in Tucson, Arizona? Tucson is one
of the most economically depressed regions in the nation, for a major city
(see:
[https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/economy/2018/...](https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/economy/2018/06/28/tucsons-
economy-hasnt-fully-recovered-great-recession/681306002/)).

I imagine this man just might be overqualified for an already poor job market,
and is doing whatever he can in the mean time to make ends meet.

Side note, I did attend UofA for undergrad. Loved it, the school and the
education were great. Unfortunately Tucson just isn't a good place to be if
you're trying to have a real career. Unless its a medical career at Banner or
some research career that aligns with the university's strengths, I recommend
to a lot of UofA grads leave Tucson.

EDIT: If its not UofArizona that you're talking about, just ignore everything
I said

~~~
lighttower
University of Alberta in Edmonton. I live in Vancouver and the delivery was
here. Edmonton has had lots of oil related jobs.

------
deanalevitt
I once had an accomplished scientist apply to a customer support role in my
company.

The reason she applied for an $18 p/h role was simple: burnout. She'd been
burnt out on long hours of grinding research and wanted something that allowed
her more flexibility.

I gave her a shot, but she genuinely wasn't a good fit for the role.

In the end, she took a course on coding and is now doing quite well as a back-
end developer in the Bay Area.

------
rchaud
I got the impression that you're seeing into this too much, perhaps because
you yourself have legitimate fears of failure and are turning the delivery guy
into a symbol of that.

No one's life is alike. You don't know what life circumstances brought the guy
from chemistry degree to delivering stuff. They could haeve been in his
control or not.

What you saw was a person at a single point in time. Whatever your takeaway
was, doesn't define who he is or what his life will be like forever.

------
tmm84
I have seen this happen to people I know. They don't have bad personalities or
bad habits, etc. From what I have seen it is sometimes that the jobs dried up
or were in places they couldn't move to (big mortgage, kids and family can be
a barrier). My middle school computer scienece teacher whom I looked up to
eventually became a mail courier. Advanced degrees aren't a golden ticket and
always being on the lookout for better opportunites is necessary. Don't fear
being low paid, fear being redundant. Your future is what you make it.

------
lsiq
Intelligence is wonderful but it alone does not make one well-off.

The short answer is that you get rich by leading, not by following. So unless
that intelligence comes with a disposition to build a business or at least
lead others then you don't get rich. Going with the flow and getting a
delivery job like everyone else keeps people poor.

------
teyc
Even Rocket Scientists - [https://www.npr.org/2011/07/11/137677198/end-of-
shuttle-prog...](https://www.npr.org/2011/07/11/137677198/end-of-shuttle-
program-leaves-thousands-jobless)

Always plan for a rainy day, and don't take it personally.

------
ksherlock
Every time there's a recession, people get laid off and can't find work. After
6 months, 9 months, stocking shelves or bagging groceries starts looking
pretty good. Pro Tip: don't mention your advanced degrees when you apply for
the job.

------
cr0sh
> I'm terrified that I'm going to end up the same way.

First off - we don't know that guy's life situation. That is, what did he do
after graduation? Or - maybe he was successful, and does delivery just to have
something to do while he gains royalties on all his patents? Or maybe he
enjoys physical work more than doing chemistry at some company? Or maybe he
was employed, then convicted of some crime he was a part of with an employer?
Tons of possibilities, we (and probably you) just don't know what led him from
there to here.

There's no way to know if this is how you'll end up; but your first question
should be why you feel you may end up the same way?

What is it about your current situation (employment, life, etc) that may cause
you to "fall down the ladder"? If you can answer that, then you'll have at
least a clue as to what to do or try to prevent it.

I'll use my current situation as an example (maybe even a warning?):

I'm a software engineer - big whoop, right? So are a lot of people.

I'm also 45 years old. I've been a professional SE since I was 19.
Unfortunately, I didn't do everything I probably should have done, and now I
am making up for "lost time".

Biggest mistake: Not saving my money early. In fact, it took me a long while
to learn to save money - and also to get off the credit spending cycle.
Fortunately for me, I broke out of it - and today I am "debt free" (I call it
"Dave Ramsey Debt Free" because I still have a mortgage - but that is secured
debt, so it doesn't really count). I have a lot of savings - not as much as I
could have had, but more than the average American does.

That gives me some flexibility - mainly in my career. I have what could be
termed "FU" savings. Basically, I can tell my employer to "take a hike" if I
want, and still be able to live comfortably for a while until I can find
another job (not that I want to - I like where I'm at right now).

One thing I have done over the years to insulate myself from being unemployed
has been two-part: I keep my skills up-to-date and varied (everyone should do
this), but I also, in the field of being an SE, keep my skills general enough
that I can apply my knowledge to get up to speed on whatever it is that my
employer may need or want me to do.

I don't focus on the skill or language "du jour" so-to-speak. Chasing that
demon will only lead to fruitless heartache, if not a lot of stress. Instead,
I seek to improve my skills in more general avenues that can be applied more
narrowly to situations.

To that end, in recent years I've been pursuing using online resources -
learning what I can about ML/AI; I've yet to use what I've learned at an
employer (these new skills have included a focus on self-driving vehicle
technology - but there's a lot of general skills even in that which could be
applied more broadly, which is the takeaway I seek when I pursue self
education opportunities) - but I believe that having them may help me to find
future employment if necessary.

That said, I do worry about hitting some kind of an "age ceiling" given my
current age; one area that I've never had an opportunity to try has been that
of "management" \- I've never been a team lead, or a manager of a team, or
anything like that. I don't know how to gain that experience except by doing
it, but if you are never given the chance to do it, you never gain it.
Furthermore, I am not sure I would be good at it - but I've never been tasked
with it. I worry that this lack of management experience may hinder me going
forward as I get older.

But I have no choice here, except to keep doing what I have been doing that's
been successful for me.

That's about all you can do yourself - try to find a career you can enjoy
going to every day, make yourself relevant to the business needs, continue
your education, especially towards more general knowledge in the problem
domain that can be adapted more narrowly if needed, and in the meantime,
increase your savings and reduce your unsecured debt load (ideally to zero).

I can't speak toward investment or anything like that - those are other skills
and such that I lack, and I don't know how to gain them. I'm not even sure at
this late date if such knowledge would matter. But if you are young, you might
look into such a thing, whatever "investment" means for you.

There's no guarantee that any of this will prevent you from becoming a
"service worker" \- or someone with an advanced degree working for a pittance.
All you can do is to do what you can to prevent it, and know that may not be
enough in the end. But it may be enough to slow things down during the "fall"
\- should that happen - that you can pick yourself up and figure something
else out to reverse your fortunes.

Oh - one other thing I forgot: I don't have kids - that was a decision my wife
and I made a long time ago. Not having kids helps greatly with savings and
debt-load issues. But that's another choice to make; everyone is different in
regards to whether to have children or not, just realize that they can be both
a "burden" and a "blessing" \- and to plan accordingly, for before and after
should you decide to raise some.

------
King-Aaron
Was he happy doing what he's doing though?

Don't get so caught up with money. And don't judge people based on your
perception of what their income might be.

------
PopeDotNinja
One thing to keep in mind is that Barry the Box Schlepper might have chosen
that career. There are plenty of people who decide they want to do something
different. Heck, YOU might talk to Barry, learn how much he enjoys his work,
and decide what sounds way better than mucking with beakers & Bunsen burners.
While that path is not for me (today), I can see the appeal of doing
predictable, physical work during the day & having a lots of unspent creative
energy on nights & weekends.

------
marketgod
Make wise decisions with your money. Save some, put in in index funds. Make FU
money. Learn to manage the stock market.

------
athesyn
I think ageism is too overstated in tech industry. If graduates with zero
experience can get work, then it doesn't make sense that senior software
engineers should struggle in the job market.

Personally, I see the opposite with many job posts asking for minimum X years
of experience. If a programmer with many years of expertise is jobless it says
more about their personality and their ability to fit culturally speaking.
Perhaps they're just applying for the wrong jobs, or use the wrong rhetoric
etc.

Too many programmers are concerned with their skill level and less with their
ability to communicate their potential. That's what it comes down to when
everything is taken into consideration.

~~~
rjf72
The reason 'ageism' is a thing is because many tech companies view labor costs
> all.

Two people are applying for the same job. One is a guy with 2 decades
experience in relevant technologies, the other is a fresh graduate who did an
internship at a tech company. One of the big differences here are
expectations. The experienced individual is going to demand substantially
higher pay. They also are going to be less willing to live their job than a
fresh grad due to a better understanding of the employer:employee relationship
along with the fact that they likely also have more obligations outside of
work, such as family. The fresh graduate is going to underestimate his own
worth, be eager to please, and have fewer obligations as well as likely being
more willing to put those aside for the job.

Because of this you're going to end up paying _substantially_ more for the
more experienced employee. How will that affect your product? It'd _probably_
be good, but that's not a given. And even if it does result in a better
product or a more efficient deployment time, how does that contrast against
your increased labor costs? And this is all talking about things in terms of a
meritocracy. In software, hype and marketing play a huge role in many
product's success, meaning there's even less reason to optimize for the most
capable teams.

As an aside this is also the reason for the huge push for getting [x into
computer science]. It's great optics for public relations, but increase the
labor pool and guess what happens to labor prices? Mega corporations such as
Google and Apple are pushing upwards of 100,000 employees. Reduce average
labor costs by 10,000 a year and that's well over a billion dollars of
recurring profit per year - keeping in mind that when a company pays an
employee e.g. $10,000 they end up paying substantially more than that in
various compensation-scaling taxes and other disincentives.

As our capable labor market has exploded relative to the quantity of desirable
jobs, many wages have stagnated. Tech is the exception. It's a field where
demand is still in line with supply which keeps wages going up. This [1] is an
archive link to Glassdoor's reporting on Google salaries. The inflation there
is remarkable. In 2010 a senior software engineer made $125k. Today, 9 years
later, they make $165k, a 32% increase. Inflation during that period has only
increased by about 15%.

[1] -
[https://web.archive.org/web/20100601000000*/https://www.glas...](https://web.archive.org/web/20100601000000*/https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-
Salaries-E9079.htm)

------
dx7tnt
Maybe his kids are doing well because he has a lot of time to be a great dad
and coach them?

Life happens. Shit happens. Kids happen. Enjoy the ride and don't terrify
yourself about money or what your life should look like. We all get 24 hours a
day on the planet and from a long term perspective, almost nothing of what we
do really matters. Maybe by moving boxes instead of schlepping in a lab for
some deranged sociopath like Elizabeth Holmes, the guy gets to spend a couple
more priceless hours with his kids? The same kids that are going to be so far
ahead because of his great mind that they will take care of him once they're
adults and he has his time back once full-time parenting is over..

tldr: you sound very young so ponder this tip from a very wise zen teacher I
had once "your life doesn't have to look like anything."

~~~
dangom
Reminds of Heinrich Böll's wonderful anecdote concerning the lowering of
productivity. [1,2] I would recommend anyone reading this comment to check it
out. It's an entertaining and enlightening short story.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekdote_zur_Senkung_der_Arbei...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekdote_zur_Senkung_der_Arbeitsmoral)

[https://www.uni-
hildesheim.de/media/_migrated/content_upload...](https://www.uni-
hildesheim.de/media/_migrated/content_uploads/Translating_Heinrich_Boell.pdf)

~~~
dang
That story is much better known in English as the parable of the Mexican
fisherman. In fact, it gets repeated in self-help and business circles so
often that it has become a cliché. But I had no idea that it was taken from
Heinrich Böll, and I'm sure few of the people repeating it do either!

[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=mexican%20fisherman&sort=byDat...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=mexican%20fisherman&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0)

------
kdz
Yeah such is life. What's worse, some of the people who shouldn't possess
wealth are some of the richest people on earth. (think El Chapo).

------
erickj
Walter White

------
paulcole
Don’t have kids. Don’t buy a house. Spend significantly less than you earn.

Or just earn a shitload of money.

------
jryan49
They care more about their work then money.

~~~
_Schizotypy
organic chemists care about delivering boxes? I wouldn't be so sure

------
newyankee
I know a very smart individual in India who worked as a watchman (nighttime
security guard) for a salary of 200 $ per month (PPP ~1000 $) who lived in <
125 sq ft dwelling

