
HP introduces new Apple iMac - tomschlick
http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/09/10/notefile/
======
jpxxx
Ridiculous. Other than the bezel color, bezel shape, metallic logo, logo
positioning, aspect ratio, foot design, choice of materials, choice of
finishing, keyboard design, key coloring, key layout, keyboard LED, keyboard
footing, trackpad design, trackpad footing, keyboard battery chamber, and
trackpad battery chamber, this is a totally unique design.

~~~
powertower
> Other than the bezel color, bezel shape, metallic logo, logo positioning...

We can't have an HP logo in a circle because Apple has an apple that resembles
a circle!?

We can't center an HP logo because Apple centers their logo!?

We can't have a metallic logo because Apple does that!?

We can't have a rectangular screen because Apple has one just in that shape!?

We can't have a silvery finish because apple has one!

We can't have a qwerty keyboard because Apple has one!

And so on.

Are you joking?

These are all done 100 times over. In combination with each other.

The only resemblance I see are standard design choices being implemented. Like
a monitor on a stand.

~~~
ricardobeat
Oh, come on. If you make the same choices as your competitor for nearly
_every_ item, that's copying.

These "standard design choices" hadn't ever been common in other products.
Were all designers suddenly enlightened at some point on what computers should
look like? (oh, wait! they were, by Apple)

~~~
powertower
Really? Having a centered logo is part of a trade dress? Is it supposed to be
2 inches to the right for everyone else?

And when you place that centerd logo on a thin form factor display/pc, that
becomes a violation? Or is it when you make the keyboard silvery in color? Or
is it when you make the frame as thin as possible given the technology and
manufacturing capabilities you have at the time?

That's like saying Ford violates Toyota's "trade dress" when they combine 4
tires on a car, with an engine somewhere inside, and paint the body red. And
the vehicle weighs less that 2000 lbs.

4 or 5 standard design choices in combination with one another is not a "trade
dress" when those choices are generic and have been done a million times
before.

~~~
ricardobeat
No, that's like saying that Ford would violate Audi's trade dress if they
combine slim headlights flush with the body, a large front grill in trapezoid
shape with the logo on top, and two air intakes at the bottom edges. It would.

That's all design is: a combination of functional and aesthetic choices, that
lead to a particular look.

Silver wasn't very popular until not long ago. Black was the default, and
still is for many manufacturers. It is also currently possible to make the
frame even thinner, or non-existent. The choice to make it that thick (and
black) shows that it's not about technical limits or 'evolution'. You can
absolutely make a computer that doesn't look like an iMac; in fact everybody
has been doing it for years.

~~~
prunebeads
Indeed, there was a huge production of so-called beige PCs, and nobody
complained that they looked the same, since they looked like crap, and people
wouldn't purposedly copy crap, now would they? The fact is that Apple products
look gorgeous, and they want to keep it that way. Commoditization of that
style would destroy its value completely. That is, unless they keep leading
the pack in design innovation, instead of trying to protect their old
productions, and milk their fan base out of recycled ideas.

------
ender7
This makes me sad for a variety of reasons. One, because HP are being assholes
and making what is clearly a knock-off product. Apple has every right to be
upset, and probably sue them for trade dress infringement.

And second, because everyone (on both sides) is going to be conflating this
with Apple's UI patents, which _are_ total bullshit and which they shouldn't
be able to sue over. Ah well.

~~~
calpaterson
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Star>

~~~
nirvana
I really don't think that posts that consist of nothing but a single link,
like this one, should be acceptable. You link to a web page and don't make any
argument. This is disingenuous.

It lets you pretend like you've taken a position or refuted the person you're
responding to, but since you haven't actually said anything you can't be
debated with. You can't be pinned down on saying any position, which means you
can't be refuted.

Now, if you made an argument, and then linked to a wikipedia page to support
that argument, besides the fact that wikipedia is not authoritative and is
edited by amateurs, often with an agenda, that would be much better. At least
then you're introducing potential facts to support an argument.

~~~
calpaterson
I think pointing out the Xerox Star is sufficient to make my point.

I agree that it's important that you can pin my argument down though so
hopefully this will make it clear: HP's copying of the iMac is not much
different from Apple's copying of the Xerox Star. The two main differences are
that a) Apple copied a huge amount from Xerox and HP seem to just have copied
the UI rather superficially and the end result seems mediocre and b) America
has software patents now.

~~~
achompas
I hate this. You're attempting to re-litigate something in public court that
was already handled in actual, real-people court almost 20 years ago. Read the
Legacy[0] section of your link.

Apple also licensed the tech behind Xerox Star. At least Xerox was compensated
for their work in some manner.

[0] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Star#Legacy>

~~~
calpaterson
Sorry you hate it. I'm not sure how I'm attempting to re-litigate...that is
something to do with litigation, and I'm not a lawyer.

That article absolutely does not say that Apple licensed anything from Xerox.
It only says that Xerox later tried to sue over it but it was thrown out due
to age.

~~~
eridius
From the page linked in footnote 10 I found the following tidbit:

> __Tesler __: No, we didn’t have one here. We went to the NCC when the Star
> was announced and looked at it. And in fact it did have an immediate impact.
> A few months after looking at it we made some changes to our user interface
> based on ideas that we got from it. For example, the desktop manager we had
> before was completely different; it didn’t use icons at all, and we never
> liked it very much. We decided to change ours to the icon base. That was
> probably the only thing we got from the Star, I think. Most of our Xerox
> inspiration was Smalltalk rather than Star.

Just thought this was interesting. And it's probably the modern equivalent of
being inspired to move to touchscreen-based devices instead of keypad devices.
Which, I might add, is pretty different than being "inspired" to completely
clone a competing touchscreen-based device instead of coming up with your own
UI and behaviors around the touchscreen metaphor.

------
sequoia
As a consumer, I couldn't care less. Android makes dropdown notification
screen: good feature -> apple steals it -> yay. Apple makes slide to unlock:
good feature -> android steals it -> yay. Honestly I'm more frustrated when
the _don't_ incorporate good ideas: Win7 & Ubuntu unity have awesome keyboard
window management features and when I use OSX I find myself wondering why the
hell Apple hasn't stolen these features yet. They are good features, your OS
is _WORSE_ for not having them (i.e. it's not just a "design choice" imo,
window management/tiling is simply worse on Mac). I _wish_ some pc
manufacturer would rip off the MPB as faithfully as possible so I could have a
decent linux notebook!

Listen to Steve Jobs v1, steal good ideas! Furthermore, this article _only_
speaks to superficial "features", i.e. the look of the box, so I care even
less. Insofar as it hurts consumers by confusing them, it's bad, otherwise I
say steal and steal alike.

Assuming consumers are not confused/misled, is there any harm to consumers
posed by this sort of copying?

~~~
effn
Slide-to-unlock was pioneered by Neonode long before Apple even considered
going into the phone business.

~~~
thoughtsimple
Apple's patent references the Neonode patent. I don't think patent law works
the way you think it does. Neonode's patent 8,095,879 was only granted in
January 2012 (filing date Dec 2002.)

See the references on Apple's 8,209,637 patent. It references Neonode's patent
8,095,879.

------
stickfigure
Who cares.

This is getting ridiculous. Originality counts when buying art, not tools.
This is a box with some electronics inside. Does it do the job better than
other computing devices?

This is like complaining when Craftsman came out with polished metal wrenches
that look just like Snap-On. Stop trying to make computing into a fashion
statement.

~~~
veemjeem
Design matters even when it's not art. There's a great little documentary
called "Objectified". It's worth watching if you want to see a rebuttal for
your opinion.

~~~
stickfigure
You misread my point about tools. _Design_ has value. _Originality_ doesn't.
Nobody is complaining that HP's new product has bad design; in fact, they seem
to be complaining that it follows Apple's good design.

This is petty vanity.

------
brudgers
It's a different form factor. Unlike the iMac, the Spectre One contains
electronic components in the stand.

A stand which is very "unMaclike."

Images here: <http://www.ubergizmo.com/2012/09/hp-spectre-one/>

It's not as if HP just entered the all in one PC market.

And this one may get something the iMac's probably won't - a touch screen.

~~~
RandallBrown
Yeah, it does look quite a bit different in most of the press shots than it
does in the first post of the blog. Similar, but not enough that I would be
that upset about it.

The keyboard and trackpad though? Blatant ripoffs.

------
ginko
What's interesting is that HP also has the all-in-one Z1 workstations[1] that
have a more interesting design than the iMac. What's especially nice about
them is that it's designed so that components can be replaced.

[1] [http://www.hp.com/united-
states/campaigns/workstations/z1_fe...](http://www.hp.com/united-
states/campaigns/workstations/z1_features.html)

~~~
rev087
That's indeed a very, very interesting design. And it looks good to booth. I
hope they're not abandoning that idea, this is the kind of innovation that
really benefits the consumer.

------
jlarocco
The headline confused me, then I checked the article and laughed.

Seriously, though, I'm really curious what HP is thinking here. I honestly
can't imagine Apple _not_ suing them over this. I'm not agreeing or
disagreeing with it, but after the Samsung/Apple iPhone lawsuit, it's pretty
obvious Apple is going to defend their design IP in court.

It just seems like HP is inviting a big headache when there's a lot of other
designs they could have used. Heck, they'll need to sell a lot of these just
to cover their lawyer costs.

~~~
powertower
I'm still confused. What would they sue over? A qwerty keyboard? A rectangular
monitor? Having a silvery stand? What?

I've looked at the two pictured presented and I don't see anything similar
besides standard design choices.

~~~
glhaynes
I'm certainly no expert, but Apple successfully sued eMachines over the eOne
that, to my eye, looks "inspired" by the then-current iMac, compared to this
HP that looks like an outright copy of the now-current iMac.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EOne>

_A qwerty keyboard? A rectangular monitor? Having a silvery stand? What?_

Surely you don't think that's the extent of the similarity, right? Nearly
anyone that sees this machine and is familiar with the iMac is going to say
"that looks like a copy of the iMac"; people don't say that about every
machine with a QWERTY keyboard and a rectangular monitor on a silvery stand.

~~~
powertower
> Surely you don't think that's the extent of the similarity, right?

Yes I do. I don't see anything apple inspired here? Again, what would they sue
over? Having a thin form factor?

------
niels_olson
What kills me is there is a great touchscreen with dramatically different
design headed to market, just need to add a CPU:

<http://www.wacom.com/en/products/cintiq/cintiq24touch.aspx>

~~~
zevyoura
I think the Cintiqs are a little more expensive than a multi-touch monitor.

~~~
niels_olson
but why? I'm betting part of their cost comes from their limited scale.

~~~
djloche
because Wacom makes pressure sensitive tablets/screens specifically for cases
where pressure sensitive is necessary.

Apple would need to outright purchase Wacom if they were going to incorporate
pressure sensitive screens - because to do it right, you need to license
Wacom's patent library. Which Wacom won't do because they make a killing
already by having exclusive technology.

------
Sauce1971
So everything "converges" to Apple designs because it is the end all designs
of everything ... Or so say the anti Apple crowd in here and Samsung and other
copycats. Disappointed with HP in this shameless look a like product.

------
thoughtsimple
The all-in-one doesn't look all that much like an iMac but the keyboard and
trackpad sure look like they copied Apple.

~~~
veyron
How would you envision a desktop trackpad that doesn't converge on the design
of the apple magic trackpad?

~~~
lloeki
There can't be any other possible design, can it?

[http://technabob.com/blog/2011/09/13/logitech-wireless-
touch...](http://technabob.com/blog/2011/09/13/logitech-wireless-touchpad/)

------
shanemhansen
Congratulations HP, and good luck with that.

I realize that many HN readers (including myself) are working on their own
products which are almost indistinguishable from what came before and what
will come after, and we hope that no competitor will ever be able to get a
slice of our pie, but if I put on my consumer hat for a minute, here's what I
have to say:

Thanks goodness most cars have round wheels, steering wheels at chest height,
and reasonably similar control layout. Had that industry developed in today's
environment they'd all be suing each other left and right over door handles
that pulled upward to open the door and sun roof patent licensing deals. Who
knows, maybe back in the day they did.

Thank goodness for wintel and competition. How dare people look down their
noses at the market forces that produced a sub 1k laptop (or sub 400). Many
people, myself included, are pretty lucky that the "race to the bottom"
resulted in home computers that we (or our parents) could afford, allowing us
to eventually become part of the hacker community.

Congratulations to Apple for making a beautiful high end product, but the fact
that their product is beautiful and high end should be all the market
advantage they need/deserve, and if they can't out compete imitators like HP,
they don't deserve our business.

------
tspiteri
While they are similar in some ways, they are not as similar as the article
makes them out to be. From images I found elsewhere, the iMac seems to have
its components behind the screen, and a very thin stand, while the Spectre One
seems to have its components in its thick stand, while its screen is thinner.
I think the article is misleading by not showing that, which to me makes them
completely different designs. As for the keyboard and trackpad, of course
they're going to try to make them as small as possible.

------
pooriaazimi
Let's turn to our wise friend Macalope[1] and hear what s/he said just last
week:

    
    
        Samsung wasn’t copying Apple, it’s just that smartphones naturally evolve into 
        flat touchscreens with minimal buttons on the front and slide to unlock and 
        a virtual keyboard and an Apple logo on the back and oops we went too far.
    
    
    

[1]:
[http://www.macworld.com/article/1168385/macalope_the_sincere...](http://www.macworld.com/article/1168385/macalope_the_sincerest_form_of_jerkery.html)

------
upinsmoke
It surprise me that it took pc makers this long time to finally copy macbooks
and imac.

------
sequence7
Really this is worth getting worked up over. Honestly it looks a bit like an
iMac, who cares, it's clearly not an iMac and the HP logo is an extra big
giveaway for anyone who might be confused.

The aluminium iMac design has been around for 5 years now it's hardly
surprising that what is obviously a good design is going to be copied by its
competitors. Why all the wailing and gnashing of teeth?

------
joe_the_user
This looks as much like an Apple as one PC clone looked like another PC clone
years ago, which is to say "a lot but who cares..."

------
nachteilig
It almost seems that we're to a point where we just have to accept this as an
industry. The frequency of outright copies seems to be increasing, and there's
not much the Apples of the world can do about it. Seems like this is common
place on the web too, where various design memes (the ribbon thing, etc. etc.)
eventually spread to a large number of sites. Given that Apple is still making
boatloads of cash, it seems like this isn't reducing their incentive to
innovate.

(Not that I'm endorsing what seems to be an outright copy)

~~~
glhaynes
_The frequency of outright copies seems to be increasing, and there's not much
the Apples of the world can do about it._

Well, they did just win $1.5 billion from Samsung…

~~~
nachteilig
Not much different than doing nothing about it when companies the size (and of
the profit) of Apple and Samsung are the involved parties.

------
duked
I worked for HP in 2011 and at that time (after Hurd was fired) they were
clearly making only a very small profit on the computer business and the
different business units justified doing so to get brand recognition despite 1
digit profit margin (compared to double digit from the PSG group). But they
had no will to compete on the consumer market, it's probably a change of
strategy to try to make double digit profit margin on consumer device. The sad
thing is they didn't even try to be innovative they just copy whatever Apple
is doing.

You may agree/disagree with the patent system but you have to be really
dishonest or blind to tell me it's not a copy of an Apple product. They will
probably fool some family with it but I suspect the majority of people are
going to buy the "original" Apple.

Really sad, HP can't stick a valid strategy or a CEO ;)

~~~
yuhong
Yea, Leo tried to sell it which led to backlash. Luckily Leo was replaced with
Meg in time to stop this.

------
adamman
So no one else can create a minimalist style keyboard without being accused of
copying Apple?

~~~
ceejayoz
That's like plagiarizing an entire novel and saying "what, I can't use the
phrase 'it was dark and stormy'?"

~~~
Evbn
Its a commodity PC filled with Samsung guts.

------
snambi
Take a look at this one <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4500970>

~~~
sirn
"I have always regarded Apple products – and the kind words Jony Ive has said
about me and my work – as a compliment. Without doubt there are few companies
in the world that genuinely understand and practise the power of good design
in their products and their businesses. [...] I am always fascinated when I
see the latest Apple products. Apple has managed to achieve what I never
achieved: using the power of their products to persuade people to queue to buy
them."[1] --Dieter Rams (Braun designer from 1961 to 1995)

[1]:
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8555503/Dieter-R...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8555503/Dieter-
Rams-Apple-has-achieved-something-I-never-did.html)

~~~
nickm12
I think Apple's clear use of Dieter Rams' design language is more of an
"homage" than a "ripoff". The fact that the Apple products and Braun products
are separated by decades and in different product categories makes a
difference.

~~~
FireBeyond
Disagree, in at least terms of the Calculator - that's not homage, that's
blatant copying. Colors, identical, button shape and layout, identical,
ratios, identical. The thing looks like someone traced it in Photoshop. That's
not "homage".

------
kmfrk
If I have to boycot every company that does stupid shit, I'll have to
manufacture my own hardware, if this keeps happening.

This goddamn industry.

------
systems
so no one is now allowed to make silver screens and keyboards, they only
allowed white, beige and black!

the design have differences, minor of course, but ... its just a keyboard and
screen

------
stephengillie
While it definitely resembles an iMac, HP has been exploring the post-mouse
era a bit with their Touchsmart series, and this could be seen as a cousin to
that brand.

~~~
arrrg
I think that’s exactly what makes this so strange. HP already was selling all-
in-one PCs that did not look like iMacs at all. They could have continued with
that – but for some reason decided not to.

~~~
jpxxx
In fairness to HP, the Touchsmart line is terrible. Bad build quality, BSOD's
on first boot, awkward design decisions, atrocious touch experience, and
literally forty preinstalled and thoroughly rotten "touch" apps that join
forces with dozens of sludgeware packages to make the first hour of use
punishing. The Spectre looks like a work of art compared to them.

(By awkward design decisions: there's a secret chamber that holds a secret USB
port that's already got a secret USB stick in it that drives the radio for the
included wireless keyboard and mouse)

------
rootwyrm
So where's that iMac with the multi-touch gesture capable IPS display again?
Looking, looking...

What's that you say? Such a product has never existed? Apple has never made a
touch screen iMac? Oh dear.

What's that you say? HP introduced their first TouchSmart system featuring a
polished aluminum housing with integrated display and touch screen on JANUARY
7, 2007, putting them only 8 months ahead of Apple's release? (IQ770. Look it
up, kids.)

CURSE YOU, FACTS!

~~~
exogen
This is about trade dress, not features. Multi-touch and IPS are irrelevant.

And the IQ770 looks like a hideous product Apple would never, ever make:
[http://www.strongengineering.com/images/products/detail/hp40...](http://www.strongengineering.com/images/products/detail/hp4070.jpg)

~~~
MBCook
Oh my god, that's a real picture.

When I pulled it up, I figured it was one of those "Here's the kind of thing
PC maker build" pictures, where a bunch of irrelevant things are put on
because people might want them. It had to be a joke image.

Nope. It's on Amazon[1]. Their picture looks a tad better though. Were there
any industrial designers on that project?

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/HP-TouchSmart-IQ770-Processor-
SuperMul...](http://www.amazon.com/HP-TouchSmart-IQ770-Processor-
SuperMulti/dp/B000NX1UNU)

------
egsmith
I was curious how the fashion industry deals with this problem.

I mean when is a pair of slacks a knock-off, a copied design, and an original
design. I would think the clothing fashion industry would have way more
experience with this.

This came up via Google:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/04/business/worldbusiness/04i...](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/04/business/worldbusiness/04iht-
fashion.1.7373169.html?pagewanted=all)

Somewhat old, but it reads just like these Apple v. whomever stories.
Unfortunately it looks like they landed on the same solution as the tech
industry; litigation. But now that I really think about it, what else can one
do?

------
mariusmg
Yeah, Apple clearly invented plastic and shapes.

------
jsz0
HP deserves to get roasted in the court of public opinion on this one.
Absolutely pathetic. This is the type of stuff no-name Chinese fly by night
companies do to make a quick buck hoping they can trick consumers into buying
the wrong thing. It's so shameless I'm surprised they didn't change their logo
to a pear or something. If HP has any self respect left they need to just
discontinue this product now and publicly apologize to Apple.

------
stcredzero
The look of all-in-one computers is fluff. What people are doing with
computers is the heart of the matter. Why aren't people doing more with such
large multitouch interfaces available for so cheap? (I've seen all-in-one
multitouch PCs for a little over $1000.)

I think one could do something really cool with statistics and scheduling
programs using such interfaces. Why aren't more people using these things as
little physical desktops?

~~~
philwelch
A big screen laying flat on a desk is uncomfortable to look at, and a big
screen facing towards you like a computer display is uncomfortable to touch
continuously. The term is "gorilla arm".

~~~
stcredzero
_> A big screen laying flat on a desk is uncomfortable to look at_

What about a "drafting table" setup?

 _> a big screen facing towards you like a computer display is uncomfortable
to touch continuously. The term is "gorilla arm"._

Please re-read my proposal as written by someone who's already aware of this.

~~~
philwelch
> What about a "drafting table" setup?

Sounds interesting.

------
zmonkeyz
This all-in-one is ok but their Z1 workstation is actually pretty nice. It
actually has easily accessible internals.

------
egsmith
HP Makes the TouchSmart line which is an all-in-one computer and is not
similar to an iMac so clearly they know how to do original design. So what
they heck were they thinking when they released this product? Did they think
no one would notice? It boggles the mind.

------
nileshtrivedi
I wonder why there was no such furor when refrigerator companies copied each
other's designs.

------
robot
If I was HP I would be ashamed of releasing such a product. I would not want
to be an engineer working there. Perhaps they don't have any engineers left
which is why they are releasing such a knock-off.

------
css771
In my opinion, the computer itself looks nothing like an imac. The keyboard,
and touchpad however, do look exactly like Apple's equivalent products.

------
JimmaDaRustla
Apple preys on the ignorant. HP now preys on the ignorant of the ignorant who
don't know the difference.

~~~
cloverich
? Because they take design seriously? And another company wants in on their
success? Is this not normal for design - cause i feel like it is. Company X
finds pleasing design, others copy. Some other company / designer innovates,
some other company copies.

I really don't know what all the fuss is about.

~~~
JimmaDaRustla
No, I meant the Apple consumers who make the decision to buy a product based
on looks over most other factor due to their cognitive ability. Within that
subsection of consumers lays an even more naive group of consumers who would
buy an HP Spectre, not knowing the difference from an iMac.

------
wethesheeple
It's what's on the inside that counts.

------
victorbstan
The marketing tag line being: "Sue us!"

------
goggles99
so the Personal Computer industry is like every other industry. How is this
news.

Don't manufacturers/designers in the fashion industry (sunglasses, clothing,
hats, shoes ETC.) The auto industry, house design, art, home furnishing,
appliance, Hollywood movies and sitcoms, advertising industry, landscape (I
could go on and on) do the same thing?

Please stop with this...

~~~
jarjoura
There is a slight difference though, you should still be able to tell
distinctly at a distance this is an HP vs. a Mac. Having a high resolution
display built into an all-in-one body makes sense to copy, but using the same
color scheme regardless of materials with the same shapes makes it look like a
copy of an iMac.

~~~
goggles99
I am not disputing that HP made it to look like a Mac. I am only saying that
this happens in literally every industry, yet we don't see headlines because
some pair of Walmart imported sunglasses look like Oakleys.

------
onetimeuse001
<start pathetic argument> I can't believe Apple is suing HP for making a
computer with a keyboard, mouse and a monitor with round corners. Apple is a
patent troll, suing instead of innovating</end android fanboi argument>

------
lalitm
Downvote

