
Ask HN: How do you manage your manager? - singluere
One of the things that is not taught in university or talked about enough in our industry is managing your manager. I am asking this because I was recently asked by my manager not to give talks in really difficult to get in industry events, despite of getting an acceptance. While I like the company I work for, it seems the un-preached way of managing the manager is to have a thick skin. How true is this? I&#x27;m also curious to know how you manage your manager?
======
slededit
If you focus on this at the point where you aren't getting what you want its
too late. You need to build a relationship of trust before you ask for an
exception or special request (in the eye of the manager not you).

Your manager should know the following:

\- That if there is a problem you will always come to him/her first not try
and work around him

\- That he can count on you to do what needs to be done. You will go out of
your way for her. If you've ever said "this isn't my job" then you will have
only an adversarial relationship.

\- That you understand what his/her boss wants, and therefore can exercise
good judgement in using whatever leeway you are asking for.

Of all of these, that last point is the most important. You should intimately
understand why they consider a conference talk to be something negative. Your
manager should know you understand that and can therefore trust you. The fact
you don't understand why they are against this conference talk is the root of
the failure.

Note that the relationship should be reciprocal. I'm not saying be a slave to
your boss, but if you want anything other than the traditional
boss/subordinate relationship you need to have trust you have each others
backs.

~~~
confiscate
agree. Especially with #3 "understand what boss wants"

From the way OP phrased the question, it sounded like the OP felt the manager
"owed" the OP.

As in, OP feels going to the conference is a must, "a given", a
"constitutional right", and that the manager "wronged" him by not letting him
go.

It's a very childish way of viewing the world. As in, I deserve to go to
Disneyland. My mom won't let me, so I will now get a "thick skin" to "manage
her". An adult would be thinking of helping mom pay the bills.

OP focuses on himself, on what he wants. There is no mention in the question
of what the manager wants. It screams "me me me"

~~~
greggarious
> _OP feels going to the conference is a must, "a given", a "constitutional
> right", and that the manager "wronged" him by not letting him go. It's a
> very childish way of viewing the world._

OP's employer does not own them - they have a right to a private life.

While they certainly could not want OP identifying themselves as an agent of
their employer when giving a talk, OP is entitled to use their free time /
vacation days as they see fit.

~~~
frisco
That's true as long as they're not talking about their work at the conference.
I assume they would be?

~~~
raducu
I've seen a very good QA engineer leave a company in exactly the same
circumstances.

She wanted to do an external presentation on cutting edge security testing
(nothing proprietary, just cutting edge) and the idiot manager wouldn't let
her.

She asked why and was given bullshit reasons and so she asked her manager's
manager which esentially let her do the presentation and agreed with her she
was given bullshit reasons.

Nevertheless her direct manager kept a grudge and she eventually had to leave
the company, I'm sure she went to a much better place after that.

~~~
sokoloff
She sure didn’t go to a _worse_ place...

------
AllegedAlec
I think a lot of advice here implicitly assumes the following:

1: You are invested in the company in a serious way.

2: Your company is invested in you and wishes the best for you.

However, I think those are quite optimistic assumptions. There's a inherent
tension between what you want and what the company wants. The company wants to
invest into you the minimum required to both keeping you as an employee as
well as allowing you to function as an employee. However, you have an
incentive to keep learning as much as possible and broadening your horizons.

A manager's task is (at least in part) to try to resolve this tension. Your
manager, however, has apparently decided to side with the company on this.
There could be several reasons for this.

It's possible that he's a through and through company man, who believes that
the company will do right by him and all other employees and that it would not
be beneficial for the company (and thus not for any of the employees of this
company) were you to go give this talk.

Another possibility is that he believes that you will not complain when being
told that your wishes do not matter. This is quite common in IT related
businesses, since in general these people are more agreeable and less likely
to voice their opposition to someone they believe to have authority over them.

A third option will be is that he is afraid that if you are to give this talk
and network at the event, you may find out that you're not being respected
properly in your current company and may try to find your luck elsewhere.

I'd say that if you want to have a chance to establish a long-term working
relationship with this manager, you need to find out what your manager's
motivation is from keeping you from such events and based on that formulate a
strategy for dealing with him/her.

~~~
tomerv
> you need to find out what your manager's motivation is from keeping you from
> such events and based on that formulate a strategy for dealing with him/her.

That's a pretty adverserial approach. Why not understand the manager's
motivation and then work _with_ him/her?

The "adverserial-ness" is also apperant in the possible causes you raised for
the manager's decision (he's a company man / he's taking advantage of the fact
that you're agreeable / he doesn't want you to work elsewhere). There can be
other reasons, even with a manager that's 100% on your side. For example,
maybe he worked hard to get approval for you to go to that conference, even
fought his supervisors, but at the end he lost? That's why the best advice is
to ask him to explain the decision, and not to come to the conversation with
any assumptions.

~~~
raducu
Shouldn't the manager as a decent human being, upon so blatantly encroaching
on another human being's personal time, be the one to explain himself and his
reason for his refusal?

------
dpark
Why were you asked to not give the talks? Context is everything.

Are you asking for the company to pay but the travel/training budget is
insufficient? Sell your boss on why this is valuable to the company and why
the budget should be expanded or funded some other way.

Does your manager not think you’re good enough to be giving the talk? Your
options are probably to prove him/her wrong, get a better manager, or live
with a manager who doesn’t trust/respect you.

If your manager is good, talk to him/her about the concerns and go from there.
If your manager is not good, figure out a path that gets you a good manager.
Staying with a bad manager is pretty much destined to end in a bad situation.

~~~
raducu
OP did not tell us how his manager justified his refusal, BUT because of the
way he formulated his question and my personal life experience, I'm very much
inclined to believe that the manager simply gave not or bullshit/generic
reasons as to why he won't let OP give the talk.

That the most common situation is the manager is a shitty person who realises
that if by any minute chance OP's talk somehow hurt the company the
implications are dire for the manager while if OP's talk do nothing bad for
the company, there's nothing to gain for the manager/company -- therefore the
manager chose not to allow OP to give the talk.

Which would prove the manager to be a verry shitty human being, just the kind
that would elicit employees asking questions like "how do I manage my manager"
on the internet.

~~~
turc1656
Why would the manager be a shitty person if they saw no upside for the
company, possible downside, and decided against that action? If we were
talking about a decision that didn't involve another human being and their
desires, I suspect you might find this decision-making logic acceptable.

Perhaps you could explain why if there is no chance for the company to gain
anything but a non-zero risk of the company's status, position, brand value,
etc. being damaged, why is this a bad decision and the manager a "very shitty
human being"?

~~~
raducu
Because its the man's spare time and since he's not a child I would expect
enough trust from the manager that the employee would not do any damage to the
company.

There's a non-zero risk to the company if the man gets into a bar fight,
there's a non-zero risk to the company if the man crosses the street and gets
run over by a truck on his way to work each morning.

~~~
turc1656
First of all, it is almost certainly not his spare time. Nearly all of these
events are held on weekdays during normal business hours. So this guy probably
requires permission to not be doing his regular job to go to this. Second,
there are usually costs associated with attendance. Many employers pay them
and perhaps this company didn't want to. But for the sake or argument, let's
assume this is held on a weekend and the guy pays out of his own pocket to
attend. He's still there representing the company and the company has every
right to choose how they are represented and by whom. It's not like he's
attending Comic-Con. He's most definitely representing the company, even as a
mere guest - doubly so as an actual speaker. The company can choose to say
"no, he's not representing us". Maybe he's a really smart dude but a shitty
speaker or someone with no social skills or stage presence.

 _There 's a non-zero risk to the company if the man gets into a bar fight,
there's a non-zero risk to the company if the man crosses the street and gets
run over by a truck on his way to work each morning._

Yeah, but he's not representing the company in such a scenario. And in rare
events, when such unflattering incidents like bar fights do actually make
front page news for some reason, people are sometimes fired because of it. You
know why? Because of this exact same logic.

------
nilkn
You've jumped all the way to trying to micromanage your boss, which is
inherently a politically explosive undertaking, but where you actually should
be is just asking much more straightforward questions: why don't they want you
to give the talk? Maybe they're trying to sabotage your career progress, but
maybe there are legitimate concerns about the content of the talk (e.g.,
exposing secret sauce internal methods to competitors in an extremely public
way) or maybe they just don't want to grant the budget to send you.

To expand beyond this, generally the way to "manage" your boss is to get to
the point where they don't have to manage _you_. While you won't formally or
hierarchically be on an equal footing with them, informally you will be
because at that point you can have a continuous ongoing relationship based on
mutual trust.

~~~
eastbayjake
Yes, most commenters here are missing a legitimate concern about sharing
confidential information in a public forum. If the talk is "How we do X at Y
Inc" there's a legitimate concern; if the talk is "Learning to Love CSS in JS"
then the manager may have ulterior motives.

My advice to OP: ask to walk through your presentation deck with your manager,
both to get feedback and buy-in. Managers will be more invested in your
success if they feel invested in what you're doing. (Suggestion: offer to plug
your company's job openings with your manager's contact info.)

------
dagw
Remember that one step up from you, your manager is just another employee
trying to please his manager. So try to understand what your manager's manager
needs from your manager and focus on what you can do to help him deliver that.
Make your manager feel like you're on his team, supporting him with whatever
unreasonable demands his manager is placing on him.

Another point is to try to understand where demands are actually coming from.
If your manager is placing 'unreasonable' demands on you, is it entirely his
idea or is it because his bosses boss is placing unreasonable demands on his
boss. Knowing this obviously won't make it easier to deal with those demands,
but it does make it easier to put together and effective counterargument when
you know whom you're actually arguing with. The most effective argument to
make for why you cannot have the database migration done by the end of June is
heavily dependent on who is actually demanding it be done by the end June and
why it's so important to them.

~~~
skyisblue
Agreed. Help your manager succeed and they in turn will help you.

~~~
scalesolved
I've done this many times and I would say it's only reciprocated around 50% of
the time. It's more nuanced than helping them succeed and expecting them to
help you.

------
KirinDave
Your question is not about "managing your manager." This is about your manager
trying to sabotage your career.

Give the talks, quit if you have to. You don't need a manager who is not your
advocate. I say this as someone responsible for many more management functions
in tech than a technical tasks now. If your manager doesn't help you, tell HIS
manager and be open: you don't need to accept this.

Bad management is a poison. Selfish managers need to be lanced out of a
company like the malignant boils that they are. Take advantage of a seller's
market for technical skills while you can, because there is no promise that
you'll have this kind of agency in a year.

~~~
mratzloff
I agree that you should seek out a manager that wants to help you advance in
your career, but you don't have enough context to judge the manager in this
particular case. Perhaps OP is spending too much time speaking at conferences
and not hitting his other agreed objectives. Perhaps there is a critical
project launch that OP is leading during the timeframe of the conference and
it's just not feasible in this isolated instance. Etc.

~~~
KirinDave
None of that is material to the judgement here. The fact that the disconnect
exists as it stands is evidence of a total breakdown in the manager-associate
relationship.

~~~
mratzloff
You asserted, without evidence and in absolute terms, that the manager is
trying to "sabotage" OP's career, advocated that he quit his job, and that the
manager is "bad" and "selfish." That's a lot of assumptions based on four
short sentences.

All we really know is 1) OP wants to give a talk at an industry event and 2)
his manager asked him not to.

Yes, there seems to be a disconnect—on the OP's side. There may be one on the
manager's side also; we don't know. It is also not the responsibility of the
manager alone to make the relationship work. People have their own
interpretation of events, and ultimately none of us commenting knows what
efforts the manager has made and what OP's interpretation of those efforts
was.

------
koliber
I am lucky enough to have a good manager with whom I can have very open
conversations.

We often talk about things we could improve at our company. Many times it is
fixing a bug or improving the UX. Sometimes, it's a process that needs to be
built or tweaked. At other times, it's a habit that is counter-productive or
something that one of us does that could be done better.

It's a two way street. Just because he is my manager does not mean that we
should not talk about things that he needs to change in order for everything
to work better. We are equal human beings and differ in areas of
responsibility at the company we work for. I am responsible for building
software and fixing it, and he is responsible for making sure that I, and
others like me, have all the resources necessary to do our job. He is not
superior to me and I am not superior to him. We all have flaws and we all
strive to be better people.

Conversations where we talk about how each of us can improve naturally have a
small level of discomfort. Special care must be given when pointing out how
someone can improve. Knowing that there are good intentions behind such
feedback makes it ever so easier.

~~~
jexah
I am in this exact situation. It's one of the best places to be in as an
employee IMO.

------
FLUX-YOU
>I am asking this because I was recently asked by my manager not to give talks
in really difficult to get in industry events, despite of getting an
acceptance.

This is dumb. They are just afraid of losing you, possibly because you are
under-compensated and they know it. Conventions are networking opportunities
and you'll likely get approached if you make yourself available at a
convention like this.

There may be a corporate reason (you showing up as an employee at a
questionable convention), but you should have the freedom to go as an
individual and not represent the company.

If my manager asked me to do that, I'd be on my way out.

As far as managing better managers goes: be honest, admit mistakes, give
suggestions for improvement, and there is almost no management to be done. If
they begin to rely on you too much without giving you something in return,
talk it out to see if they can spread the burden or give you more pay.

------
rdiddly
You've taken a very specific question/situation and vastly generalized it to
"How do I manage my manager?" The answer is most likely, "Avoid doing it if
possible," but why don't we instead begin (and maybe end) our manager-
management course with the easier question, "How do I deal with the fact that
my manager told me not to speak at a conference?"

If you're relying on the company for the conference in any way -- for example,
they're paying your way, or you're going to talk about their technology (and
even if you built it for them, it's usually still theirs) -- then the manager
has the right to approve or disapprove. If neither of those two elements are
present, and there are no others that I haven't mentioned, (or you can quickly
make it so), then the manager needs to be told gently to fuck off, and why.

------
vfc1
You don't. As long as you work for someone else, that type of situations will
always occur, to a larger or lesser degree.

As long as you work under someone else's supervision, you will never have the
freedom to do whatever you want, like for example give a conference talk or a
million other things.

I'm sure it's not only the conference talk, right? There are other things.
Instead of investing so much time trying to navigate the relation with your
manager and always ending up in situations like this, I suggest trying to use
that same energy and effort and dedicate to try and find a way to become your
own boss.

You will then have the freedom to do whatever you want each and every single
day, and won't have to spend all that time and energy constantly convincing
someone of things that are often for their own good.

~~~
repsak
This is quite childish advice. Is this your solution all disagreements?

 _" You will then have the freedom to do whatever you want each and every
single day, and won't have to spend all that time and energy constantly
convincing someone of things that are often for their own good."_

I wish!

Constantly convincing someone of things that are often for their own good is
basically the definition of what you do when working for yourself, or should I
say when your working for you clients/trying to acquire new clients.

~~~
bendixso
There is an implicit assumption that working for yourself means working for
medium to big clients, but that isn't always the case. What if you build a
product and have hundreds or thousands of customers? They might leave a
negative review here or there, but they aren't going to give a rip which
conferences you go to.

Imagine building a business that passively generates half of your yearly
spending. Now you just need to generate the other 50% of your yearly spending
from "active" projects like jobs and medium-sized clients. It's not full
independence, but I'll take it over being completely beholden to someone else.

It's not childish to take responsibility for your life, to carve your own path
and gain greater degrees of autonomy. In fact, it's what fully developed adult
human beings do.

------
tacostakohashi
In my experience, if you need to "manage the manager", it's not a good
situation, do whatever you need to do for the short term to get through it,
but be looking for something better at the same time.

Your manager should be someone that you can learn from, not someone who
requires your management.

------
geofft
> _I am asking this because I was recently asked by my manager not to give
> talks in really difficult to get in industry events, despite of getting an
> acceptance._

Why?

You have basically two options here: genuinely work towards mutual benefit, or
deceive and "manage up" and look out for your own interests while you work on
finding a better manager with whom you believe you can genuinely work towards
mutual benefit.

Many companies have a rotten culture and no other manager at the company will
be really better. Many do not, and the idea of managing your manager is
foreign to people who have only worked such places.

If your manager has a good reason (e.g., your talk is likely to reveal trade
secrets), work with your manager, who should genuinely want the people they
manage to be the best people they can be - including letting them find roles
or employers they'd like better, because open headcount is better than
continuing to employ an unhappy employee. If your manager is scared of having
excellent employees, make plans to leave. Either that manager has internalized
this fear, or the company's incentives for managers (i.e., the things on your
manager's own performance and compensation review) discourage the manager from
helping you grow, and neither of those situations is worth trying to solve. In
the first case, you can try an internal transfer if company politics permits
it; in the second, you probably need to find another company.

(If you need to deceive, I'd maybe go with something like, the event expected
that I'd present and backing out would be bad for our company's reputation,
but I'll avoid this in the future. Then go to the event and figure out who's
hiring.)

------
codingdave
A few points come to mind:

1) It is none of your company's business what you do in your spare time, as
long as you don't attach their name to it. However, if you are going to events
to give talks using their name, their funding, or with time you have committed
to them, then they do have some say in it. Whether or not their requests are
reasonable comes down to the next point...

2) As other comments have said, "managing your manager" implies a mismatch in
the relationship. You should have open communications with your manager, and
be able to talk through both positive and negative aspects of your situation.
That isn't easy for all people, but if you approach it as a communication
problem to resolve, it is easier to be positive about the process.

3) If you sincerely try to improve communications, negotiate perspectives, and
just aren't able to get to a place where things are going well, you have a
choice to make: Live with it, or leave. If you choose to live with it, that is
when a 'thick skin' comes into play.

~~~
singluere
Thanks for the advice. I've been trying to improve communication on my end but
somehow I feel it has not improved. Given the power dynamics in a
manager/report relationship, I feel that with certain managers its more
difficult to get on the same page.

------
benforreal
I don't think managing your manager is a healthy way to think of things. You
are there to support your company and team, and your manager enables this
larger picture and should return support to every employee, including you. I
think, as in most things, you need some empathy for his/her position and try
to come to a common understanding. Talks are a fantastic way to boost your
resume and soft skills, and they help you as an employee better practice
talking to your team and enable you to better represent your team's ideas in
big meetings with a crowd of stakeholders. Your manager should be sympathetic
to this and be happy that you're passionate. On the other hand, when you speak
at a conference, you are representing your company. If you say stupid things
in your talk, you not only hurt yourself, but your company's reputation. I
think the default policy at many big companies is to get explicit permission
for each and every public thing you do like this, but usually managers just
look the other way because its easier. Its possible your manager just wants to
go by the book and not deal with the overhead of company policy, so the answer
is no. You may want to discuss specifically why your manager isn't allowing
you to present, and politely explain that you think it will level you up as an
employee to be an even greater asset. Maybe suggest that you run the talk by
them to make them feel better about what your are presenting, and even ask if
its OK that you speak to HR or corporate to get the company's ground rules and
make the extra time and effort in this regard so your manager doesn't have to.

------
twunde
Consulting and project/product management do teach these skills frequently.
Additionally, the senior people at your company can probably discuss this at
length, especially if they've worked at large companies (look for people 40+
if possible).

There are some general rules about managing your manager. One learn how they
like to have information presented to them (Are they big on presentations?
Emails? 1:1s?. Hint: it's probably not email). Are there specific things that
they look for, ie former Mckinsey consultants tend to pick up small mistakes
in presentations, some managers may have a thing about about grammar/spelling
mistakes. When your company is hosting happy hours or events, go to them and
mingle. NEVER talk badly about your manager. Always remember that your job is
to make them look good. For example when you want to give talks at industry
events, you need to pitch it as bringing more name recognition to the company
and to the department. Benefits could be found in recruiting, easier time
raising money, maybe more clients (IT'S FREE MARKETING for the company!)

PS Hopefully, you were smart enough to ask why he didn't want you to give
talks at industry events (a potentially valid issue could be that you're
distracted from the work you're being paid to do)

------
biztos
> asked by my manager not to give talks

This is really missing some context: were you asked to not give the talks
because of their content? Were you denied budget to go to the events, which
would be a completely different thing? What reason did your manager give for
the request?

As a general point, you should consider what your manager wants to achieve,
and to the extent it doesn't contradict your own goals or ethics, help them
achieve that. If no such alignment is possible, CTRL+ALT+DEL.

------
OliverJones
Everybody has a time constant. That's the time it takes for them to accept a
new or challenging idea. Figure out your manager's time constant.

If you say, "I'm giving a public talk" (or "We should move from Azure to AWS",
or "We need a better defect tracking system" or whatever), it's human nature
to resist. It's new. It's change.

Entrepreneurs often have long time constants. It's necessary for them to be
stubborn, and stubbornness is generally a good personality trait when doing
difficult things.

So, don't expect your manager to agree right away to your new idea. Give her
at least her time constant to think it over.

How do you do this? It depends on the manager's work style. If she diligently
reads stuff you send her, pitch your idea in email in the middle of the
afternoon, so she can think about it overnight.

If he communicates verbally, ask for some time and pitch your idea in person.

WHATEVER YOU DO, don't expect "(facepalm) Hey, you're right. Good idea!"
during your pitch. It takes a while.

Now, some managers will come to you after their time constant elapses and say
"I have an idea!" and recite your idea. You have to accept this.

~~~
antisocial

               Now, some managers will come to you after their time constant elapses and say "I have an idea!" and recite your idea. You have to accept this.
    

LOL

------
dalore
Will you regret not talking at the events? If so it's your career and
something you have to live with, not your manager. You won't always work for
that company (or even that manager), but you will always have the talks on
your resume.

Unless he's got a really good reason, you haven't said. I would tell him it's
your career and not his, but thanks for his advice.

------
scardine
I can say what not to do: never do something to undermine or expose your boss
no matter how incompetent he is.

Personally I let my boss take all credit for my work (not really, just make
everything I can in order to get him promoted). When he gets promoted he is
likely to carry me up with him (if not I'm working for the wrong boss). It
paid out several times.

~~~
kjeetgill
To add slightly, the "worse" a manager is the more important this is. If
someone wants all the credit and has the authority, you can only either help
or face some degree of consequence.

The more competent and confident leadership is the more they'll work to make
sure you get pushed into the spotlight for your work (sometimes against your
will if you're shy or unsure). A good corporate culture will naturally make
them look good when you look good.

Disclaimer: I've had the distinct pleasure of only working _with_ but never
really _for_ a difficult of manager.

------
maxxxxx
I generally avoid talking too much with my managers. I usually do without
asking what I think is right without getting permission (better ask for
forgiveness later which rarely happens). When asked I will tell them what's
going on but without asking I am quiet and do my job. When my team has to work
with other teams I also talk to them directly without manager if possible.
This works well for me.

Other people have the opposite approach always talking to their manager and
trying to develop a relationship. From what I see this only works for some. In
the end they want somebody who does the necessary work and causes the manager
as little work as possible. It's pretty rare that a manager actually mentors
people to get better.

As far as asked not to give talks it seems pretty clear that your manager
doesn't have your best interest at heart.

------
lemmicide
Make sure they work in the same time zone, for one.

Two, your guy seems to be throttling your notoriety. Flip that fucker the
bird, and if he give you static, quit on that bastard.

The problem you’ve got right here is as old as the Molly MaGuires.

Are you exposing trade secrets? No? Then someone simply doesn’t want to be
outshined.

------
debacle
I have been a manager for a few years. Giving a talk at an event can be a huge
career boost. Unless she has a good reason, you should ignore her request.

------
linsomniac
"I don't want you speaking at difficult to get in industry events."

"That's interesting. Why would you say that?"

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5RknemM8Hw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5RknemM8Hw)

------
mathattack
Lots of good advice on the thread.

I would add...

1) Proactively give a weekly written status with goals for the week, what you
accomplished, what you didn’t, what you need from them, and what you are
waiting on for others.

2) If the damage is irreparable, time to transfer or leave.

------
RickJWagner
I just give my manager my honest best 40 hours for that week.

I don't want to work beyond that (though sometimes it just has to be done),
and I sometimes have weeks where I'm just tired/lazy/not well and don't give a
good 40. But I always try.

Using that formula I've managed to always have good relations with my
managers-- this is my 28th year in the business, over 3 companies and several
managers in each.

Oh, about the speaking gigs. (I've had a few of these too, and only once lost
the opportunity to go. That one was a foreign event and wasn't really in my
strong suit.) I'd use that as a bargaining chip in your periodic reviews. When
the manager talks about your performance, mention going to one of these shows
as a benchmark. I wouldn't try to use a minor show-- make it J1 (or whatever
it's called these days), MSFT Build, RH Summit, etc. Something that means
something. If the manager balks, I'd seriously consider bringing it up in a
group-level meeting. Upper managers almost always offer a Q&A session, you can
have a cleverly worded question prepared in advance. It's hard to claim to be
a world-class company when you don't let you people go to world-class
gatherings, so you should find some traction there. Good luck.

------
hn0
Try to understand their point of view. Maybe he/she hates your guts, but I
doubt it.

I’d ask something like:

“I’m certain you have your reasons about not wanting me to attend the
conference, but they aren’t clear to me. I have the best interests of the
company in mind, but from my point of view this feels like a unduly limitation
of my personal liberty. I do understand there’s not always the time or energy
to explain yourself to those you manage, and I don’t want to question your
decisions. But I wish you would explain your reasoning about why you feel I
should not attend the conference. And maybe see if there is a possibility of a
compromise? I hope you try to understand my point of view here, I do not want
any sour feelings to develop between us.“

Also, give people time to change their minds. Just gently asking a few times a
couple of times in advance, preferably during downtime or when your manager is
in a relaxed state if mind. It might help them reconsider the idea, even if it
feels like nagging. Just be wary that you don’t come off as “not listening” or
questioning their authority. If you manager is really difficult you could ask
a superior, but be very careful, you can be certain they won’t like you going
behind their back.

~~~
raducu
Yes OP, and while you're at that and reducing your relationship with your
manager to that of a parent to a 2 year old boy, also remember to kneel and
kiss your manager's hand if they do you the favor of allowing you to do as you
please in your own spare time.

------
snarfy
It's nothing to do with having a thick skin. It's about being professional.
Nothing that happens at work should be taken personally.

Meetings with your manager need to be two way. As your manager tells you how
you are doing, you need to tell them how they are doing. I manage my manager
by being completely candid about his performance as a manager.

------
lgleason
Bad/inexperienced managers/team leads can make a great job a miserable
experience. I usually leave those positions for better jobs vs trying to train
someone who is supposed to be my "superior". The not giving talks at certain
industry events seems odd unless there is a company policy around that due to
IP issues etc..

------
ilkan
Imho odds are your manager is right. Are you working for a 3 letter agency,
its contractor or subcontractor; are you revealing trade secrets or company
priorities, or implying them by revealing your knowledge on a subject; are you
using your role as employee of company X to land paid speaking roles; have you
signed employment agreements that state any intellectual property you create
on or off the job is property of the company; are you speaking at event which
could bring suspicion or disrepute to your employer eg blackhat, scammy, or
events sponsored by foreign powers; do you work in finance and are being paid
an amount in cash or in perks (transport, meals) which invites scrutiny for
ethical violations; do you work in a sensitive or "access" position which has
required you to sign a code of conduct? What's the reason for denial? Context
is necessary.

~~~
azangru
> do you work in finance and are being paid an amount in cash or in perks
> (transport, meals) which invites scrutiny for ethical violations

I too would love to hear the reasons behind the manager's request, but wow, is
this also a potential issue? Are you not allowed to be paid however much they
are willing to pay you? And why would you disclose your salary or perks at a
conference anyhow? Do people do that?

------
timdellinger
You should be aware of your boss's goals, and his/her boss's goals (which are
often written down and reviewed annually), and your organization's goals and
mission statement. If the conference is aligned with these goals, you have a
case.

You should also have a professional development plan in place with your boss,
so that he/she knows the ways in which you're putting time into growing
yourself professionally, and so that he/she can steer opportunities your way
and help you achieve what you've got your eye on. If presenting at industry
events is "on your list", it should be On Your List, i.e. written down and
reviewed annually.

For managers, professional development of their direct reports is often one of
their goals.

I'm from the No Surprises school of thought - you don't want surprises from
your manager, and your manager doesn't want surprises from you.

------
analog31
One thing I've learned is that managers hate surprises, and hate making
decisions in front of an audience. Think about how it feels to have your idea
(going to the conference) vetoed. Their idea (approving your attendance) could
get vetoed too. The easiest thing to do with any unexpected idea is to quash
it.

Perhaps a way to deal with a situation like the conference, is to get them
involved early. Like, before you apply for it: "Hey, boss, there's this
conference that I think would be beneficial for us. We'll learn a lot and if I
give a talk, it will be prestigious for the business. It's a long shot, but
can I apply for it?"

Also, in all conversations with your boss, work on your mutual enthusiasm for
your career development. At the very least, it's unlikely they will say to
your face that they don't support your career.

------
joejerryronnie
In addition to some of the solid advice given in this thread, I use the
following technique with my manager and it seems to work well in establishing
trust and increasing my value to the organization:

Every once in a while (maybe every 2-3 weeks), I'll pop into my manager's
office and ask him the biggest challenge he's facing at the moment, i.e.
what's keeping him up at night. And then I'll try to help him out with it.
Sometimes I can take direct action to solve the issue. Other times I can
inform my colleagues of the issue and help to prioritize a fix with the team.
And still other times I just listen with an empathetic ear and give some
advice or kick around ideas with him.

------
nostrademons
Book rec:

[https://www.amazon.com/Throwing-Elephant-Zen-Art-
Managing/dp...](https://www.amazon.com/Throwing-Elephant-Zen-Art-
Managing/dp/0060934220)

------
LTjoker
It sounds like you've already decided to give the talk. Have you discovered
the rationale? Why would your manager us his leverage to influence your career
path?

Managers learn through failure like everybody else.

------
Mefis
It is important to remember that your manager's and your own goals may not be
alligned. In other words, managers may not have your best interests at heart.
Always have to look out for yourself.

------
everdev
After not finding success reporting to managers, I started my own company. In
the end I learned that I'm a great fit as CEO and not a great fit as an
employee.

Now I have the freedom (and responsibility) to make those decisions. Yes, you
could build a relationship with your manger and try to find a way to convince
them to let you go to these events. Or, you can be your own boss and just go.

If you keep thinking your manger is "doing it wrong", it might be worth
stepping into their role and seeing if you can actually do it better.

------
mwerty
Not sure how pathological your situation is - 'thick skin' seems a cover-up
for a lack of managerial accountability and you might not see it give your
position inside the organization but this may help:
[https://www.amazon.com/48-Laws-Power-Robert-
Greene/dp/014028...](https://www.amazon.com/48-Laws-Power-Robert-
Greene/dp/0140280197)

Best of luck.

------
psyc
I don’t know how to, because the usual tool - words - are off the table. Every
time we speak, he monologues at length, going into the kind of detail parents
use with small children. He paves over every attempt to interject or ask for
clarification I actually need. And then at the very end, he listens to the
first few words of my thoughts, then interrupts that he’s late to something
and runs off. Every time.

~~~
jchallis
Life's too short to work for someone that you do not respect and does not
respect you. You have limited ability to change your manager's behavior, but a
lot to change that manager.

------
shoo
[http://www.dadhacker.com/blog/?p=2267](http://www.dadhacker.com/blog/?p=2267)

------
zakum1
Managing people is hard, so it is always important to recognise this and help
your manager by being proactive with ideas that help her/him manage the team,
understanding what is important to her/him and the organisation, and
contribute greatly to showing results as a team. Too often we unnecessarily
feel that we are on different sides - and overblow this in our minds.

------
bitL
Giving a talk at a prestigious event is a clear signal to your manager that
you are likely going to jump over them due to your vastly increased visibility
and popularity, so a crab mode is employed at you. Get thick skin - any job is
temporary anyway, but marketing opportunities are few. Don't do anything rough
and clearly unfair though.

------
cpheimbach
1 loyalty Too often I experience employees or co-worker to think they have
better ideas or should be opposing to their manager. Managing happens often
under uncertainty. Making it for your boss easier to know you are there to
take on ups and downs will almost often grant loyalty in return. On this job
and future opportunities as well.

~~~
gbajson
After 15 years IT I see that managing bad bosses makes sense. Bad bosses, with
their bad ideas, are usually fired or resign at some stage, the good ones
stay.

~~~
powertorque
I heard “me me me” from the OP. There is no context or direction that it is a
bad manager. What if OP is a bad employee and a drain on company resources? It
is a one-sided talk so far with no context on the other party.

------
m0rc
The best advice I have seen about this topic is the classic book "The
Unwritten Laws of Engineering" from W.J. King. I always recommend the book to
newcomers.

Note that the latest re-print of the book is named "The Unwritten Laws of
Business". I guess that editors expect to attract more readers with the new
title.

------
jrs95
Unless you have a really good job I'd probably give the talk(s) anyways and
see if you can get away with it.

------
powertorque
Context is very important here. Have you always been denied for every talk?
How frequently are you planning these talks and does it impact you work? Is
there any trade secret/ IP the manager is concerned about? Is the company
paying for everything and if so what are you giving back?

------
aventador
It is taught at university. However, the courses you require are typically
found in MALS and DLA programs. Studying classics (i.e., dead white guys, like
Plutarch), rhetoric, methodology, and conflict resolution will help to grow
your perspective in how to best influence others.

------
deepaksurti
Set up a weekly goal setting session between you and your manager.

Keep crisp feedback loop going on towards the goals you mutually set.

Balance out the business needs and engineering implementation, aka manage tech
debt.

Own your products and work with your manager to improve those both
externally/internally.

Commit, Deliver; Repeat

------
guscost
Your job should not have to include managing your manager. Your manager’s job
includes preventing this situation from happening. If you find yourself
spending too much time on this (and you can’t fix it by bringing it up), you
should find a new manager.

------
osrec
My experience is in the finance industry, so it may be different for you, but
this is what I've observed throughout various jobs:

Your manager...

\- prioritises themselves over you (obviously!)

\- is probably not the best leader, and can't deal with their authority being
challenged

\- probably doesn't know what's best for you

\- will sabotage your prospects from time to time (even if it doesn't provide
them with immediate benefit)

\- probably sees you as a threat, especially if you're good at what you do

\- will try and control everything you do at work (micro-management), and
perhaps even outside it

\- will forget things you've discussed and agreed in the past

\- will try and ensure you never sense that the above are true

You should...

\- send regular descriptive, emails that make your manager aware of what
you're up to and what you've discussed/mutually agreed. The more stuff in
writing, the better. This is to CYA (cover your ass). Also, it's an evidence
of "work" (stupid, I know, but it's how it is).

\- be aware of toxic patterns in your manager's behaviour. E.g. giving you
pointless work, stopping you from taking a holiday at a particular time for no
good reason etc. Once that starts, it's usually a downward spiral, and may
signal a time to move on.

\- look out for jealously. If you start to outperform your manager, they may
get jealous, and that's bad for you. I think this may have something to do
with you not speaking at the event, but I leave that for you to judge.

\- mingle and build relationships with other senior managers at your firm.
Eventually you'll want to take the next step, perhaps to escape the clutches
of your current manager if the relationship has soured.

\- try not to be too smart. Back down, even when your manager is wrong, or
risk ruining the relationship. It's sad, but most managers don't take well to
being challenged, even if your tone and intentions are good.

Having a thick skin, as you mentioned, is necessary for the above. I remember
joining an investment bank as young whipper-snapper quant, trying my best to
show how great I was at every task. Trust me, it did not go down well! After a
few job changes, I decided to dumb it down and toe the line. Before I knew it,
I started to get promoted to some rather senior positions, just by doing the
basics and some long-ish hours! The key was ensuring that you're not perceived
as a threat, while ensuring everyone around you is fully aware of your
contributions.

------
xchip
Well, you ask your manager for the reasons behind his decision, most of the
time they have a compelling reason and you get to learn something (besides of
not remaining resent).

------
gorbachev
Did your manager tell you why? If not, then ask.

There USUALLY is more than meets the eye to things like this.

I could think of several very reasonable objections from your company to you
giving public talks.

~~~
walshemj
And get it in writing

------
mvpu
First, be valuable to the company - get work done, be reliable, be available.
Second, understand the manager's strengths and weaknesses and become valuable
to them individually.. if architecture is their weakness, help them understand
that; if not tolerating skipped deadlines is their weakness, don't skip them,
etc. Third, provide constructive feedback in 1:1s - help them become better.
Finally, do not make them look bad in public, especially when their bosses are
around.

------
werber
Follow the org chart up past your manager to get what you want

~~~
codingdave
This works if, and only if, your 2nd line supervisor thinks your boss is
incompetent. Otherwise, he'll literally just send you back to the boss with
directions to "Handle this." And in the process, you have ticked off your
boss, and given a bad impression to the 2nd line boss.

------
bendixso
What does the company have to lose by your going, and what do they have to
gain? If you are asking to take personal time off in the middle of some
critical goal/deadline, I could see how your going would negatively impact the
business.

In fact, it has happened to me while working on projects. Some key person is
off at a conference, while we're all charging to get the thing done, and it's
not a good feeling.

In my experience, tech conferences tend to be more for developers and less for
the companies and businesses that hire them. Let's be honest with ourselves
here. It's kind of self-indulgent, like a mini-vacation.

It's not like you can't watch the videos online or go read whatever tutorial
or documentation. I'm only speaking to my experience here, so maybe your
conference has something the typical tech conference doesn't have.

I would only go to a conference if I knew that going would more than pay for
the cost. If I were certain it would lead to many more opportunities than what
I've got going on at present, I would say it's worth paying for the airfare,
hotel, and restaurant food.

It seems like you could stand to gain quite a lot from going to this
conference, and your company might just lose you. They are justifiably afraid
of that, but so what? This is capitalism, man. It's ruthless. Everyone's in it
for themselves.

Your company is subject to market forces. You are subject to market forces.
They would need to find another developer to train up if you left, and if they
let you go because you went to a conference, they would be taking on the risk
of having to replace you.

So there's an inherent risk in going (on both sides). Can you currently afford
to take that risk? How much do you have saved? How much debt do you have?
Would you be okay with being unemployed for a few months while looking for the
next thing?

When someone else's interests are naturally at odds with yours, there is
little negotiation to be done. They simply don't want what you want, and
that's okay. Can you afford to go get yours?

------
dominotw
> I am asking this because I was recently asked by my manager not to give
> talks in really difficult to get in industry events, despite of getting an
> acceptance.

Curious, were you told why? Seems really strange.

~~~
johnminter
I am not at all surprised. In many (most?) corporate environments, all your
work product belongs to the corporation and management decides whether the
benefits to the company outway risks. To get approval for conference talks I
always had to first get approval from my direct management and then from the
corporate clearance department. I worked in our analytical science division,
so I also needed approval from the management of our client divisions to speak
about my work on their projects. We even had editors who had to approve all
abstracts, articles, and slides.

------
a_imho
Tell them what they want to hear.

------
NikolaNovak
To a certain degree, thick skin, especially in the sense of not getting overly
emotional, focusing on the goal, seeing big picture, having patience, etc, is
always a good advice. But it's not necessarily the key part of having a good
relationship with your manager.

First, the ground work - you can NOT start with what you want or demand on day
one. When joining a new team or new manager:

1\. Understand their constraints, goals, priorities. While you may be focusing
solely on technical solution, they may have overriding cost, time, and other
resource constraints. Understanding them, and helping your manager fit within
them and achieve their goals will engender trust and start building a
relationship.

2\. Understand their background - technical, business, functional, management,
etc. This will give you first layer of insight on how to reach them.

3\. Understand how they like to work. Little things like: \- How do they like
information presented - email or in person or text message or phone? Small
bites or long presentations? Ask questions as they come or batch them? If you
present your information / request in way that works for them, you will have
better chance of success

\- How do they like / take feedback: openly in group settings, openly in
private, or do you have to tread carefully

\- Are they hierarchical or co-operative; do they base authority on status or
knowledge or persuasion; do they lead by consensus or by direction

4\. Per above, build trust, relationship and camaraderie. If you understand
and help them achieve their goals, you are an ally they want to help. If you
are (perceived or actually) uncooperative, unproductive, distracted, unaware,
etc, you may be seen as irritant.

Now that you have a solid understanding and relationship: \- As per the old
(and cliched) Dale Carnegie's standby, before any request, figure out a
"business case" \- what's in it for them, or team, or company? If it only
benefits you, it's a weak case. Almost always you can find a way to bring
benefits to team, even if it's just enhancing your skillset that you can use
on project, meeting customers, or something similarly indirect \- Think of
their constraints or objections ahead of time and address them in your
request. If it's absence from the team, who can be your backup or can you do
work ahead of time. If it's cost, can you make case for ROI? \- Persuade them
that they want this to happen. Don't ask or demand, rather present and
discuss. If there's any way to tie it into their goals, thoughts, or
priorities, do not miss an opportunity to present it: "As you were saying the
other day, we need to reach out to the wider market and find new avenues for
our products and networking. One of the ways I was brainstorming is industry
conferences; upon some research I found this conference where I think we can
potentially engage an interested audience", etc etc etc :>

Without more detail on your specific case, or your specific manager, the
generic thoughts are all I can offer. Best of luck!

------
tzahola
>I was recently asked by my manager not to give talks in really difficult to
get in industry events

Wait, what? I don’t think your employer has the right to prevent you from
giving talks.

Am I misunderstanding something?

------
Null-Set
Dump him.

