
I downloaded an app and was part of the Cajun Navy - rodrigocoelho
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/gray-matters/article/I-downloaded-an-app-And-suddenly-I-was-talking-12172506.php?cmpid=twitter-premium
======
lsiebert
I notice people talking about untrained ad hoc groups VS professional and
paraprofessionals.

There is no competition here, there is only lives saved. Untrained ad hoc
groups had smaller boats, had more boats, and were able to help people who
would have died otherwise.

I do think it is worthwhile to talk about problems that occurred. Get a list
of them, prioritize them, find solutions. Though they have to be solutions
that don't make things worse, preferably ones that get tested during a mock
disaster, not during the next real one.

One thing to note: Most people involved in these efforts were good intentioned
and did their best. There are a few reports of bad actors, but they were rare.

~~~
hectorr1
A decent plan executed fast beats the perfect solution next week every time
when lives are on the line. That said, now we have some time to think and
plan. So let's make an app.

What training videos or info graphics does an ad-hoc flood rescue group need?
How about urban earthquake? Terrorism response? Wildfire? How do you do
effective dispatch? Triage? How do you best integrate with the professionals
when they show up?

The knowledge gap between an amateur and a paraprofessional has never been
substantial, and now we have the ability to provide training on-demand. We
just need to build the capability to rapidly scale baseline knowledge and plug
into a coordinated network. When disaster hits, you download the app and see
what you can do.

~~~
lsiebert
There is knowledge and there are skills. An app can provide knowledge, but
only training and practice can provide skills.

Skills may, to a limited extent, be substituted by something that guides
decision making. Like that chatbot that helps people file small claims against
Equifax. But that works best with well documented stable situations, and can
be brittle in more fluid (no pun intended) ones.

As well, when it comes to definitive local resources like phone numbers, web
sites, you have to keep checking them and updating them. And if information is
changing rapidly or uncertain, this may be extremely difficult.

I am a generally thoughtful individual, but I really see the benefit of a
domain expert in planning any app or tool for this purpose.

------
tlrobinson
> The second he answered, he was screaming that his brother and cousin were
> laying in the backyard, unresponsive, possibly electrocuted.

> I told him they needed to try to get to them

> I went to the bathroom, refilled my tea, walked around a bit, thinking to
> myself, "What are you doing?? You're not qualified to do this!"

I'm not trained to handle this sort of thing either, but I'm pretty sure if
you suspect someone has been electrocuted you shouldn't encourage others to
attempt to rescue them unless you're confident they aren't also at risk of
electrocution.

~~~
aplummer
I was mortified reading this part. As well, telling people rescue is soon when
you don't know (or know it isn't) can be disastrous.

------
forkandwait
I wish there were a disaster militia, with something like quarterly weekend
trainings, with some FEMA sponsorship but still independent. It would be fun
to practice ham communications and boat rescue anyway, and a little bit of
practice could have a huge impact when the shit is truly hitting the fan.

~~~
froindt
That's sort of what the national guard is for. They train a couple weeks per
year and respond to situations like this.

~~~
forkandwait
Well, the national guard aren't civilians or local, plus they get sent to
fight in wars and shit.

I am thinking more like a level below volunteer firepeople, with some regional
and national coordination.

~~~
cat199
state guard. many states have it.

Or form your own. visit your local shooting range for details.

~~~
vkou
My (outsider's) impression of most private militias is that they often
structure around people who are itching to gun down some bad dudes, as opposed
to provide humanitarian aid.

Like, ah, these fine gentlemen. [1]

[1] [https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/new9wd/the-birth-of-
canad...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/new9wd/the-birth-of-canadas-
armed-anti-islamic-patriot-group)

------
lukejduncan
When Katrina hit, I remember finding the blog of a guy who had a company doing
custom websites in New Orleans on the front page of hacker news. He stayed
there through the storm and after, and I remember sitting in the undergraduate
library at Wayne State University fighting back tears reading it. This had a
similar affect on me. Very powerful story.

It wasn't clear to me, but I'd love to learn more about the tech powering this
app. Is it open source? Is it somehow decentralized?

~~~
harryh
You might be thinking about
[https://interdictor.livejournal.com/2005/08/](https://interdictor.livejournal.com/2005/08/)
?

~~~
justajot
The Interdictor // this is the one that I remember. I was glued to this guy's
post during that time ... was fascinating.

------
aaroninsf
The part of this story I don't understand myself, is how so many people had
bandwidth to download and use an app, in an environment in which I would have
assumed both power and the cell network–especially data–were limping or just
down.

The implicit question is, what percentage of people in the disaster zone did,
and did not, have a channel out through this app? Does this story represent
the 10% case or the 50% case or...?

Not sure where to find the answer...

~~~
imglorp
Some of the cellphone network can operate with no wired power or network.
Towers can have p2p microwave links and battery backups. That doesn't really
answer your question about how/if/how-long it worked this week.

[http://ups-battery-backup.com/cell-phone-ups.php](http://ups-battery-
backup.com/cell-phone-ups.php)

[https://enterprise.spectrum.com/solutions/carrier-
services/c...](https://enterprise.spectrum.com/solutions/carrier-
services/cell-tower-backhaul.html)

~~~
jpindar
Some of the ones near me even have small wind generators.

~~~
TomMarius
These probably were super-effective during this occasion

------
subway
It's really depressing that we've largely abandoned the art of decentralized
radio communication. I think Amateur radio has seen a minor resurgence in
recent years, but it seems like more and more traffic that traditionally would
have been passed by decentralized amateur operators now relies on centralized
networks.

Obviously Zello and its ilk bring significant benefits with them, but I worry
about the impact they have on proliferation of radio skills.

~~~
sverige
Amateur radio is still alive, but there are not nearly as many active hams as
there were 30 years ago when I first got my license. A much smaller percentage
of hams know how to pass traffic in a systematic way these days, and not as
many are proficient with Morse code, which is arguably the most efficient use
of spectrum in disaster scenarios.

Hams did help during Harvey and are helping during Irma, but it doesn't get as
much press as it used to.

I also think that there has been sort of a systematic degradation in
neighborhood relations that has an impact on disaster response. My
neighborhood has mostly middle aged and older people in it now, most of us
know each other, but many neighborhoods have become much more transient in the
last generation or so and ties are not as strong.

My challenge to a community that includes "hacker" in its name is to consider
picking up the radio hobby. It has some real old school hacker opportunities
for everyone. And, it has never been easier to obtain an amateur license. The
Morse code requirements have been dropped. The technical part of the test is
not that difficult for anyone with any understanding of electronics. The
regulations are somewhat obscure, but not difficult to grasp. We need an
infusion of new amateur radio operators. The old guys (like my dad) are
disappearing fast.

~~~
uabstraction
> My challenge to a community that includes "hacker" in its name is to
> consider picking up the radio hobby.

You hit the nail on the head here. I've been fooling around with computer
programming for over a decade now (since I was in Jr. High), and Arduinos and
Raspberry Pis as long as they have been available, but I never put much
thought into ham radio. Most of the makers I know go straight to pre-made WiFi
or Bluetooth modules when the time comes to make their projects work
wirelessly - accepting their limitations while overlooking much simpler
solutions which can be achieved though RF and a little bit of know-how. In
hindsight, I wish I had learned about ham radio much sooner.

There is a massive schism between the ham community and the hacker community
which doesn't make much sense to me. They are both very much interested in
finding novel solutions to problems and sharing them with the community, doing
more with less, placing value in decentralization, and have a similar sort of
independent counter-culture and grounded respect for technology.

I think it is simply a problem of awareness. Before I got into ham radio, I
assumed that the FCC simply allocated a tiny bucket of useless spectrum for
amateur use, and that it's practical utility was quite limited. I didn't know
that amateurs had access to bands all the way across the spectrum, that they
are allowed to transmit at 1500 watts, that they could talk directly to the
ISS, or make use of satellite repeaters and reach across oceans with a walkie
talkie. On the HF bands, ham radio makes international communication possible
without any middleman, subscription fee, or infrastructure. It is also a
godsend for people launching weather balloons, allows you to build some
incredibly badass RC craft, and can serve as the backbone of all sorts of
other fascinating endeavors.

I think the schism is generational. The maker movement is composed largely of
kids who grew up with the Internet, and really took off with social media and
web 2.0, while the ham community is composed of a large body of people who
came of age and mastered their craft before computers became ubiquitous. For
better or worse, a lot of them seem to remain set in their ways. Many ham
websites, including those of active clubs, brick and mortar stores, and
repeater networks, look like they're straight out of the 90s, and social media
outreach remains quite limited. I suppose the fundamentals of radio, much like
physics or mathematics, hasn't changed much in the past 50 years, but these
communities unfortunately seem to be living in different worlds.

I think that it is essential for us to bridge the gap. The alliance of the
hams and the makers really stands to bring positive outcomes for both
communities.

~~~
jpindar
Some of the fundamentals have changed, or at least been added to - nowadays
some radios are actually software defined radios, but their owners might not
even know it because the SDR and an embedded computer are built into one
chassis, with physical front panel controls.

------
doodlebugging
We used Zello when we were down there with a boat. We are just regular people,
not part of anyone's navy, just a few guys with a boat that were part of a
much larger civilian response to this disaster.

About the Cajun Navy - There were so many people responding to this disaster
wanting to help with their time and boats that many times we found ourselves
staging to launch but ultimately unable to get in the water because the
neighborhood or area we were planning to search only needed 15-20 boats and
two or three times that many boats staged for the task. That means dozens of
trucks pulling every kind of floating contraption lined up on relatively dry
Houston streets and roads and waited in line hoping to be able to take off
into the floods and bring people out who needed assistance. When the
authorities determined that enough boats had launched for that area, everyone
else had to find somewhere else to go. Massive resources were wasted with
boats lined up in one spot that could've been actively searching somewhere
else.

We ran into a couple of guys from the east coast following Zello Cajun Navy
reports who at great expense, drove out to help and had not been able to
participate for two days because they were trying to stage in spots where the
Cajun Navy was being called up. Once the call went out to the Cajun Navy,
boats flooded in from all over and you were nearly guaranteed to have more
than you needed. In Orange, we ran into a Texas-based rescue outfit, not the
Texas Navy but some group who dressed in military duds. We explained that we
were heading into one of the neighborhoods along the Sabine to check a report
and asked whether they had already checked it or knew anything about it. They
hadn't heard that report or checked that area so we were cleared to go in and
the leader of the group asked how we heard about the people needing help. When
told that we heard it over Zello, he commented to the effect that the Cajun
Navy and Zello was kicking their asses in mustering people and boats.

Fun stuff but the reality of the Cajun Navy effort from our standpoint was
that a lot of people wasted a lot of time following their channels and maybe
better coordination with other groups would've made a smoother effort.

About the Cajun Navy channels on Zello and Zello itself - Over time the effort
evolved into one where each affected area had a dedicated channel to direct
boaters to those who most needed assistance. This was not true at the start
when the Houston channel had reports from all over the Houston area and
eventually Beaumont, Port Arthur, Orange and Vidor too. It was tough at first
to determine where the person filing the report was located although there was
a website we used to guide us that was actively accumulating requests for
rescue and pinning them on an active map. This map evolved to eventually drop
many of the requests that were determined to be expired due to rescue already
happening or floods receding, etc. We chased reports from that map in the
areas that we worked and several times found ourselves following an old report
that had not been updated. Obviously, the solution to that is to have boaters
radio in and update as they visit addresses. Once the large collection of
initial reports from those who had been rescued were tagged or removed the
site was much more useful.

A big drawback of Zello in our opinion is that it is vulnerable to
manipulation by anyone with the app installed. We kept hearing reports of
shots fired at rescue boaters, attempts to steal rescuers boats, rescuers
being attacked by residents, etc. and I feel that they were almost all false.
We staged at Addicks Dam at the same time reports were actively coming in on
Zello Houston channel about shots being fired and boaters were encouraged at
the staging area there and later at Bass Pro Shops in Katy to be aware that
some rescuers had been targeted. While at Addicks Dam staging area none of us,
all Texans and familiar with weapons and gunshots, heard anything remotely
like a gunshot. In the days that we were there none of us heard a gunshot at
all though the reports over Zello made it sound like you might be taking your
life into your hands if you tried to rescue in some of these neighborhoods. A
number of rescue boaters were armed and as far as I know none of them had to
fire a single shot. I could be wrong though.

Along the same lines Zello was full of reports about imminent dam or levee
failures. This got really old as we moved from Houston to Beaumont to Orange
and kept hearing the same reports of imminent failure from possibly the same
person who kept assuring listeners that the Coast Guard was there with him and
informing him that people should leave as failure was imminent. Jeez. Give it
a rest. I checked maps around Orange and found that there is no large lake or
dam or levee just upstream and we radioed to correct the reports letting
people know that they likely applied to Addicks Dam in Houston if they applied
to anywhere. Within minutes the same guy came on and announced that the
failure of the dam was imminent, the Coast Guard had informed him, etc. A lot
of bad information and potentially damaging misinformation was spread.

Anyway. We're home now. Rebuilding will take a while. Help if you can.

~~~
sliverstorm
_Massive resources were wasted with boats lined up in one spot that could 've
been actively searching somewhere else._

I'm on a search & rescue team, and this is usually the chief challenge with
"the public" getting involved, there is no established organizational
structure. People all mean well, but it is incredibly difficult to utilize a
horde of untrained people effectively at the drop of a hat, and it can also
make things worse.

Zero criticism of the Cajun Navy et al, sometimes a motley crew is the best
you've got and you do the best you can. But if you've ever been turned back
when you tried to volunteer for a disaster, this is why.

I wonder if a future extension to ICS/NIMS could be, how to plug in these
unconventional resources where professional manpower is insufficient. Develop
a 2-minute briefing, a point of contact for unconventional resources to report
to, a simplified structure & communication network. The most important
concepts are pretty simple, and the first responder doesn't need to know that
much about it.

~~~
cat199
> I wonder if a future extension to ICS/NIMS could be, how to plug in these
> unconventional resources where professional manpower is insufficient.
> Develop a 2-minute briefing, a point of contact for unconventional resources
> to report to, a simplified structure & communication network. The most
> important concepts are pretty simple, and the first responder doesn't need
> to know that much about it.

Great idea, but unfortunately when it gets officialized, the lawyers and the
bureaucrats get involved and start talking about liability and ways to insert
themselves into the situation to profit from it and things quickly gain the
complexity of joining the original organization, so it ultimately fails. Maybe
I'm too cynical here.

~~~
sliverstorm
ICS/NIMS trainings are painful to sit through, but in practice it appears
pretty agile to me when implemented faithfully.

Instructors will tell you, it's only when you want to be part of the
management structure that you really need to know what is going on. Even
today, the bottom rung mostly just needs to know where to check in, who they
report to, and how to communicate.

I understand your cynicism, and in many places it's applicable. I've noticed
however that gov't works developed in the wake of a disaster seems to be
pretty solid. Maybe because the project leaders are granted unusual latitude
to ignore the lawyers & bureaucrats :)

------
Damogran6
Holy Crap that's a tough read.

------
SigmundA
Lot of misconception on this app that it works without cell service, like a
regular walkie talkie.

Does seem like a good idea if Apple or Samsung might build in some point to
point radio hardware similar to a Gotenna that's works without cell
infrastructure.

~~~
thescriptkiddie
Serval actually does this with WiFi mesh networking.

[http://www.servalproject.org/](http://www.servalproject.org/)

~~~
SigmundA
Wifi mesh seems obvious but at 2.4ghz or 5ghz too limited in range.

I was thinking 150Mhz~ MURS like Gotenna for a few miles range.

~~~
thescriptkiddie
They have a "Mesh Extender" which uses 900 MHz ISM band radios for ~4 km
range, and can be connected to an external HF radio if you have a HAM license.
It even implements store-and-forward so you can send messages to people who
are wandering in and out of range.

------
revicon
I heard about Zello through this article a couple days ago. I installed it and
to be honest it's been kind of interesting to listen to, reminded me of the
old days when I wold listen in on my CB radio to the random chatter. I'm not
sure how useful it is for actual communication though, it seems like SMS or
similar apps are more efficient and let me know I didn't miss anything if I'm
away from my phone for a while.

~~~
briffle
This tool is more useful for immediate communication with 'somebody' not 2 way
communication. I listened in to a channel with Irma closing in, and People
were asking questions like "I'm on the road, and not going to make it, what is
the nearest evacuation center to where I am now?" or important messages were
relayed like "We are working at store X, in city Y, and we just got another
truck with more bottled water"

------
mnw21cam
Could I ask, what's so bad about going into the attic? Surely that's just one
of the easier ways to get out onto the roof?

~~~
michelb
If you have no roof access from the attic, and the water level rises, you are
stuck.

~~~
mnw21cam
Rip away the roofing felt, shove the tiles, then you have a hole. Climb out.

~~~
wiredfool
After you've gone through the 3/8"-3/4" plywood/osb that's nailed on well
enough to not come of in a hurricane?

------
beamatronic
We need ham radio hardware with an iOS interface

~~~
tjohns
It exists. Off the top of my head, Flex SDR radios can be fully network
controlled via iOS:

[http://www.flexradio.com/amateur-
products/flex-6000-signatur...](http://www.flexradio.com/amateur-
products/flex-6000-signature-series/smartsdr-for-ios/)

There's other options as well. But I'm not sure how that would help here?

~~~
BHSPitMonkey
Yeah, it wouldn't really help communicate with the victims in an emergency
like this because virtually none of the general public is going to have (and
know how to use) specialized equipment that they only need in extremely rare
situations. Perhaps equipment could be distributed to the volunteers, but it
seems like many of the boat owners already had basic radio capabilities
anyway.

------
neves
When I first read this thread I was really happy to read so many stories about
people flocking to help each other.

But I became almost depressed after reading this
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/10/world/americas/irma-
carib...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/10/world/americas/irma-caribbean-st-
martin.html)

I've got different meanings for "First World Problems".

------
wnissen
Why don't we have people doing this dispatch professionally? What are FEMA and
the Red Cross doing if not helping coordinate emergency response when the
normal channels are overwhelmed? Don't get me wrong, this person, and all
those who aid the rescue efforts, is a hero. Don't the people who do this
deserve to get paid and have resources for dealing with PTSD? And don't the
victims deserve organized, professional response?

~~~
briandear
How do you scale that in a hurry? Do you have people doing this full time
sitting idle waiting for a full scale disaster to hit? You already have the
National Guard, but how can that force cover an area the size of the
Netherlands — with a thousand boats ready to go? Texas had literally thousands
of rescues. It’s ridiculous to suggest that any government force can deploy a
force large enough to handle that within a day. Even the military would have a
tough time blanketing an area that large with everything needed in time.
Ranger battalions could secure an airport size area within 18 hours notice on
the other side of the world, but this emergency covered a land area about 3000
times the size of the Houston airport. We are talking about thousands of
troops not to mention the logistical requirements — as well as a considerable
need for local knowledge as well.

This is the difference between Americans and many other cultures — there is a
sense of self-reliance that often doesn’t exist in other places. Many people
would prefer to let the government handle it as if the government was some
omnipotent force with infinite resources that are positioned exactly in the
right place: like battalions of Rangers sitting in a C130 at Hunter Army
Airfield just waiting to drop into action. People underestimate the logistics
of massive rescue operations.

Also, a practical question: how do you deploy 1000 boats instantly? Air drops?
Does the government just have thousands of boats staged across the country
with thousand of qualified operators ready to jump into action?

Americans as a culture are different — they don’t sit around waiting for
“official” help — they jump into action. I’d personally rather count on some
redneck with a boat than just hope government comes through. While bureaucrats
are figuring out what to do, old Jimbo with his swamp boat is already in the
water en route.

That’s America. You don’t have to agree with it, you don’t have to like it,
but Harvey was a great example of the American spirit in action: neighbors
helping neighbors — even local businesses, like Houston’s largest furniture
store, opening their doors to help. In France, you would never see an IKEA or
Auchan opening their doors to those in need during a disaster, you’d never see
a virtual armada of volunteers ready to jump into action. During the great
Europe flood of 2016, people died in their homes — wouldn't they have loved to
have the Cajun Navy? In Triftern, Germany, 250 students were trapped in a
school for 24 hours — I bet they would have liked to have some rednecks with
swamp boats.

I am not arguing against government disaster response, I am arguing that in
times of disaster, Americans, especially in the South, are proud to jump into
action. Lives were saved because a whole bunch of people decided to act.

~~~
nsebban
Hundreds of people opened their home in October 2015 after the huge rainstorm
and floods in Cannes and Biot. Several supermarket (Carrefour and Intermarché
for sure) delivered tons of food to the people there.

Hundreds of people opened their home on July 14 2016 after the terrorist
attack in Nice. Same in Paris before that. And same in Barcelona this summer.

While it's true that American people jump into action, it's just wrong, and
immensely disrespectful of the people who helped, to say the same doesn't
happen in France or in other countries.

~~~
secfirstmd
Germany opened its home to a million Syrian refugees in 2015/16............

------
kirankn
Real Heroes!

