
Loneliness on the Job: Why No Employee Is an Island - fern12
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/no-employee-is-an-island/
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tabeth
Inclusiveness is definitely important. I'd be interested about the following
trade offs in a more practical, balance sheet, sense:

1\. Does providing job security at the expense of pay increase or decrease
loneliness? Obviously if the pay is too low there will be turnover, but is
there an amount X, where X is not market rate, but still high enough so that
if there were security people would just stay? Surely low turn over will
result in more relationship formation which can be positively correlated with
_not_ feeling lonely.

2\. How does a dining area and free food affect loneliness? Will it make it
worse by highlighting things, or will it encourage everyone to eat in the
[company provided] dining area, sparking new relationships? If both, what's
the distribution?

3\. If measures to reduce loneliness results in the formation of cliques, is
that a positive outcome if those left out feel alienated?

In general, to what extent should employers focus on this? This reminds me of
how some employers try to encourage an active lifestyle, which is generally
positive, but at what point are things simply _intrusive_?

~~~
caylus
> How does a dining area and free food affect loneliness? Will it make it
> worse by highlighting things

This is my experience exactly. I'm sure at a certain company size it might
help form connections, but at my larger company people arrange into cliques.
It's like the high school cafeteria all over again.

I've switched to eating at my desk, not because I don't want to be social, but
because it's less painful than being rejected by the cliques.

~~~
mwfunk
If you're at a company where you can't find a place to sit in the cafeteria
because you're being rejected by cliques, holy shit. Get out of there this
instant. To be honest, I'm so surprised by this statement that I can't help
but feel skeptical about it, but if it's true, then you must've found one of
the worst places to work in the entire world.

In my darker moments, I feel like a social cancer sometimes, and am no doubt
really abrasive and unfun to hang around with some days. But even so, in the 2
decades I've been in the tech workforce, I have never felt like my coworkers
were cliques of snotty teenagers looking down on me to such a degree that they
wouldn't let me sit with them in the cafeteria. If this is your environment,
it's not you, it's them, and you need to get out of that company ASAP. Basic
adult respect should be a precondition for working at any professional
workplace.

~~~
Shaanie
Most likely it's not that they're outright telling him to move, instead they
probably show disinterest or make it clear in some other non-confrontational
way that they'd rather not have him sit with them.

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doyoulikeworms
My current job makes me feel very lonely. I’m not close in age to many of my
coworkers and the place is very cliquey. It feels awful. I was on the verge of
leaving, but actually ended up staying when I made a close friend. When that
relationship dissipated, I interviewed elsewhere and put in my notice.

The social climate really makes a difference in a way I didn’t appreciate
until I started this job!

~~~
scarface74
I haven't made friends at my job. I don't have the same interests as any of
the other developers.

On the other hand, I have a group of five friends that I made at my previous
job that I keep in touch with in a private Slack group and we meet for lunch
once or twice a month.

I knew I was going to be a short timer at this job for various reasons and
never bothered.

I do keep in touch with one former coworker at a job I had in 2011. I married
her....

~~~
doyoulikeworms
I personally require more, like, personal engagement with my colleagues, I
guess. I want to feel like I’m working with friends, but some cultures can
make it feel like I’m often working with adversaries.

Some workplaces require you to “break into” the cliques in order to progress
or work on high-visibility projects. This can make career progression feel
like a political issue more than a technical issue.

That said, I also coincidentally married a woman I met at work :) And also
keep up with friends from old jobs. This will likely be the first job that
I’ll end up leaving without keeping in touch with anyone. That’s how isolating
some places can be!

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b0rsuk
Here in Poland it's very risky to connect with your colleagues. I think it's
the case for all countries with low social trust rating. In theory, you're
working together for common gain, because if your company is better off you
should earn more and work should be easier and quality better, right? Yet in
Poland people are very eager to get advantage of one another. It's got to the
point where I don't trust coworkers by default. I'm helpful, but careful.

~~~
donttrack
Is this a general thing in Poland? Any other Polish people feel like this?

A lot of my work is being outsourced to Poland and I am thinking I could use
their distrust of each other to my advantage in some way.

~~~
p0ints
My view is the opposite - Poles are more honest (which usually translates to -
more whiney) at their jobs than Western people, where centuries of capitalism
have taught people that it's best to keep your thoughts to yourself and
pretend to be happy/content. Poles have yet to internalize this lesson.

~~~
b0rsuk
It depends what you mean. To Poles Americans look quite fake with their
smiling mask, and adjectives ranking from "good" to "awesome". The world
"beautiful" sticks out like a sore thumb when you read web frontend/design
blogs. Words like that are reserved for truly astonishing works. There is no
expectation that you feel great all the time. Ask and you usually get an
honest answer(bragging on a job interview notwithstanding). It's not like I
heard about India where I heard IT workers often don't ask questions or are
afraid to admit they don't understand something. There is also no strong
expectation to participate in polite small talk like in UK. Gosh, it's hard to
say, I'll have to travel a bit to see Poland from outside.

But leave your bike, or even an umbrella unattended for a few moments and it's
likely to get stolen. If you drop money in a public place, it's very unlikely
to be returned anywhere - it's seen as a windfall. Fenced houses and (multi-
flat) blocks are getting VERY popular. In fact, people bring screens to
beaches to separate themselves from each other (usually by family), sometimes
even "reserving" spots on public beaches(they have no right). Some foreigners
half-jokingly use the term "polish disease" to describe materialistic attitude
of many Polish girls. Government clerks are famously unhelpful and make you do
their job. Recruitment agencies are almost entirely focused on employer needs.
Cheating in school is widespread and very rarely reported by classmates.
You're seen as a snitch. It's similar with reporting bad drivers. Tax
avoidance and frauds are more tolerated, even among politicians("Everyone does
that / all political parties do it anyway"). There are many laws and rules
which are not used in practice - the most spectacular example is the Smoleńsk
plane crash in 2010 where most of the political elite, including the
president, died.

Also keep in mind Poles working abroad are usually the most ambitious and
honest ones, because they understand Westerners appreciate that. It's
refreshing being able to just focus on doing a good job, and with expensive
equipment.

I guess the bottom line is Poles often don't trust you, but are honest about
it.

This is of course largely a product of Soviet influence (technically Poland
was a part of Warsaw Pact, but NOT a part of Soviet Union) and resulting
material powerty. Romania, Russia are similar but even more grim.

What is jaw-dropping to a Pole?

"I was a construction worker in Denmark. At the end of the shift, I suggested
that we store our tools indoors. - Why? We'll be working in the same place."
(expecting theft)

That until recent years Swedes didn't lock their homes.

In a swedish fairy tale "Moonintrolls", one of characters suggest that they
repair an old boat they found, so that they can use it better _or give back a
nice boat if the owner shows up_. The idea that you might be happy about
giving back an object you put your work into like that.

That in other countries ministers delegate work and important decisions up to
their subordinates, and that most of civil service and (local) administration
stays when the ruling party changes. Polish politicians like to micromanage,
and behavior like that is seen as sign of weakness.

Interesting read on social trust in various countries:
[http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/uncategorized/social-
tr...](http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/uncategorized/social-trust-is-one-
of-the-most-important-measures-that-most-people-have-never-heard-of-and-its-
moving/)

~~~
Noumenon72
Which rule was not used in the Smolensk crash?

What would happen to you in the workplace if you behaved like a Westerner and
looked for opportunities to contribute to others' priorities, praised others'
work, and shared your productivity enhancers?

You're totally correct that it's refreshing to just be able to focus on doing
a good job. I work so much voluntary overtime just because I know that it's a
rare time when you are someplace your contributions are needed and welcome. A
lot of times you have a lot to offer and no organization that can get it to
people who need it.

~~~
p0ints
> What would happen to you in the workplace if you behaved like a Westerner
> and looked for opportunities to contribute to others' priorities, praised
> others' work, and shared your productivity enhancers?

I curently work in a large Western Europe organization (30k employees), which
does a lot of its software development in Poland. I'd say the work is in many
ways organized in a terrible way (courtesy of the higher-up geniuses in the
HQ). My observation is that the rank-and-file employees in the Western Europe
branches tend to more often eat shit and smile about it than people in Poland.
That may be because I don't know them as well as my Polish collegues though.

------
twoquestions
What I've always been taught is when you go into work, you cease to be a
person, and become a thing. You have no dreams, desires, wants, emotions, or
needs (You may be hired to _project_ an emotion, but you're not to have any
authentic emotions yourself). Your sole reason for existence is to provide the
labor your employer is buying.

Your own loneliness is your sole responsibility. If you don't have the
information you need to do your job that is your manager's responsibility to
remedy, but their job stops the instant you have the tools you need to do
yours.

~~~
dbecker
I haven't worked for an employer that's held that view since high school (when
I bagged groceries).

I'm skeptical any successful business treats high-skilled employees that way.

~~~
poulsbohemian
This was every company I've ever worked at or consulted to, which is in large
part at the root of why I went freelance. Are there really great companies
with culture that treats highly-paid, highly-skilled professionals as
_professionals_? Yes, I'm sure there are, but they are _rare._

~~~
LarryDarrell
The worst are the ones that constantly say, "We're like a family here." Family
of psychopaths maybe.

YMMV, I find companies in the Midwest would rather you check your empathy at
the door.

~~~
twoquestions
You detailed my thoughts _much_ better than I did.

Maybe it's my Midwestern upbringing, but I'd rather just get my job done than
be an emotional sop for my coworkers, or worse have other people be an
emotional sop for me.

~~~
bomb199
> but I'd rather just get my job done than be an emotional sop for my
> coworkers, or worse have other people be an emotional sop for me

I don't think you have to be in THAT kind of relationship with coworkers.

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monster_group
On one of my jobs the entire team was a certain nationality and spoke a
different language (this was in a country where English is the default and
dominant language). When they talked to me they talked in English otherwise
they would talk in their own language even when having discussions about work.
I felt very excluded. I tried to stay on but couldn't. I left just after three
months.

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k__
I never really liked co-workers.

But I never really liked most people.

Started remote working, because it gave me more time to meet with people of my
own choosing.

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Bertio
I've experienced lonliness on the job but I've come to realize it has more to
do with having meaningful work than meaningful relationships. If I'm doing
work that is contributing and adding value I will not care at all about the
people I'm surrounded by or if they even know I exist. When I'm underworked I
start to feel excluded and isolated.

Currently I'm bordering on overwork and I find socializing taxing. When I work
from home I do twice as much work but I don't need to sleep on the couch after
work.

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RickJWag
As a baby boomer, this would have confused me 'till recently.

I've been studying generational differences for an upcoming talk, so I'm tuned
into generational attitudes.

We had a mail-list thread this past week about an employee who felt lonely. I
found it hard to relate to, but someone on the thread mentioned a YouTube
video by Simon Sinek, it's about Millennials in the workplace. It really
clicked-- I can see how some people feel this way.

~~~
daveFNbuck
What about this confuses you? Is it that someone could be lonely at work, that
someone would expect not to be lonely at work, or something else?

Your confusion is as surprising to me as workplace loneliness is to you and
I'm genuinely curious to see your answer.

~~~
Consultant32452
No op, but it's not surprising that someone might feel lonely in any context.
What's surprising is that so many people would lack the social skills to
rectify this problem that employers have created policies where they instruct
your co-workers to be your "friend.". And it's equally surprising that an
employee would have this expectation of their employer. It's rather juvenile,
like parents setting up play dates for their kids.

~~~
daveFNbuck
I don't see the idea that managers should assign friends in this interview.
Where are you getting that from?

~~~
Consultant32452
I was referring to this comment in the grandparent post:

>We had a mail-list thread this past week about an employee who felt lonely.

~~~
daveFNbuck
You're assuming the mail-list thread was about managers ordering people to be
friends with the lonely employee. Maybe that's what happened but I doubt it.

~~~
Consultant32452
That's true, it may not have come from the top down, but it's still a foreign
concept to me culturally. If I found out my coworkers were sending out
communication regarding my perceived loneliness I would be mortified and GTFO
asap.

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amorphid
As a developer, I've definitely felt lonely at work. I'd guess that it's
caused by my personal feeling that development should treated as a
collaborative effort by default; it's too hard to do solo most/all of the
time, and yet my teammates & I are often expected/encouraged to work solo.

