
WhatsApp has introduced a feature that allows users to send and receive money - iafrikan
https://www.iafrikan.com/2020/06/17/facebook-whatsapp-payments-chat/
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BiteCode_dev
WhatsApp is controlled by Facebook, and they already centralize a gigantic
amount of personnal data. Their moral track record has also been consistently
bad. They were part of the PRISM program. They meddle with politics. They are
rich and powerful.

The chinese WeChat example shown us how convenient a popular chat app coupled
with a payment system can be, and how quickly an entire society can adopt it.

I think this feature should be considered as a threat to users, and be
avoided, while actively and strongly, but respectfully, advising people around
us to do the same.

~~~
jauer
> They were part of the PRISM program.

This is highly deceptive framing. PRISM was a passive cable tapping program.
Companies weren't "participating" in it as much as they were victims of it.

Facebook was targeted by PRISM and rapidly worked to mitigate as soon as they
knew about it, just like every other cloud service provider that was
victimized by cable tapping under that program.

~~~
BiteCode_dev
I wish.

But for what we know, they didn't have direct access, they made requests to
the companies.

Wikipedia states "PRISM collects stored internet communications based on
demands made to internet companies".

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)#E...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_\(surveillance_program\)#Extent_of_the_program)

CNET says:

"Sources challenge reports alleging National Security Agency is 'tapping
directly into the central servers.' Instead, they say, the spy agency is
obtaining orders under process created by Congress."

[https://www.cnet.com/news/no-evidence-of-nsas-direct-
access-...](https://www.cnet.com/news/no-evidence-of-nsas-direct-access-to-
tech-companies/)

Which makes sense.

Why pay the cost for a huge and complicated setup when a cheap piece of paper
can do the job, and the gag order make it as secret?

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iamben
I think this is a pretty smart play. I (and a lot of Brits, I'd guess) use
WhatsApp about every 7 minutes. Sure I could send money through PayPal, or
bank transfer or any of the other apps I have on my phone that facilitate it -
but WhatsApp would make those payments to friends just that _little bit_ more
convenient. Why open PayPal? Why make my mate open PayPal? I'll just send it
next time I check all my chat groups...

This is probably also a pretty smooth intro to Libra. Start with "we'll send X
pounds via Libra instant transfer: £X = XL", end with "You have XL in your
account. Withdraw to £".

~~~
frosted-flakes
In Canada, bank transfers are so seamless that I see no chance of this ever
gaining traction. It's called Interac e-Transfer, and all domestic banks are
part of it. All you need is access to online banking, so it's universally
available. It's free, too (for personal accounts).

The way it works is the sender signs into their online banking and initiates
an e-transfer. The sender doesn't need the recipient's banking details, only a
phone number or email address. The recipient follows the link in the email/SMS
message they received, signs into their online banking, and selects the
account to deposit the funds into. The entire process is immediate.

If the recipient has registered that email address or phone number to auto-
deposit into a specific account, all the sender has to do is type in the
amount and hit Send. Otherwise, they will have to create a short question with
a secret one-word answer that the recipient needs to answer correctly.

How could WhatsApp payments be better than that? Not everyone has WhatsApp,
and if you want to use it you'll need to go through the hassle of linking your
bank account.

~~~
alisonatwork
The hassle of linking your bank account is more of a hassle in countries where
that isn't necessarily easy to do. (For example to link an internet banking
account to your traditional bank in Canada, you usually need to send a
personal check in snail mail.)

In China, where mobile payments are ubiquitous, the process of linking your
bank account is just typing in your name and account number, and entering the
one time pass code your bank just sent over SMS. Now you can pay for
everything - not just individuals on your contact list, but literally anyone
who also has the app installed - just by scanning QR code and entering your
PIN. The recipient doesn't need to sign in or confirm anything, it's just
done.

Don't underestimate the convenience of this setup. I do like that Interac
eTransfer doesn't force people to install a proprietary app to transfer money,
but can you really see it replacing cash in a grocery store or helping people
split the bill at a bar?

~~~
frosted-flakes
At a grocery store? No, that's what debit cards or Google Pay are for.

Splitting the bill at a restaurant? Absolutely. I use it for that all the
time. That's _mostly_ what I use it for, because it's so quick and easy.

~~~
alisonatwork
I've tried to split the bill this way too when I lived in Canada and didn't
find it quick and easy at all.

First everyone needs to log in to internet banking, then they need to find out
the email address of whoever is picking up the tab, then they need to wait for
that person to receive their email notifications, then that person needs to
log into their online banking to accept each transaction one by one... With
Alipay or WeChat it is much more seamless, and the whole process can be
completed in literally a few seconds.

It might not seem like much of a difference (a few minutes vs a few seconds),
but once people get used to that convenience, I can't see them wanting to go
back.

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reversii
Curiously, their Android app database (msgstore.db) has had a
"pay_transactions" table, and a "payment_transaction_id" column on the
"messages" table, present for about a couple of years now.

I guess they've been planning/testing this for a while.

~~~
mckee1
They've been testing it in India for around 2 years, but had been held up in
releasing it more widely there by regulators.

[https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/whatsapp-
pay...](https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/whatsapp-pay-to-
launch-in-india-soon-gets-approval-from-npci-1644208-2020-02-07)

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ipnon
I see vertical integration increasingly as the only viable Big Tech strategy.
Chat apps have existed since the early internet, but never one as popular as
WhatsApp that can make payments. The outcome if this trend were to persist
would be a small group of WeChat style omni apps.

~~~
samfisher83
If Fb could have turned Whatsapp into WeChat they would have increased their
market cap a few 100 billion.

~~~
ta17711771
What do you think they're (slowly, to avoid antitrust attention) doing?

Game streaming, dating, selling used shit, payments, workplace "social"
platform, video hosting&subscribing, etc.

They're on their way.

~~~
pintxo
... to become AOL

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CryptoPunk
Status is the decentralized alternative to Whatsapp [1] and cryptocurrency is
the decentralized alternative to Facebook Pay.

However I think Status and cryptocurrency are nowhere near ready for mass-
adoption. I don't use Status, because it hasn't implemented private payments
yet. Unmasked payments on the blockchain can completely compromise your
privacy.

[1] [https://decrypt.co/25629/status-wants-to-be-the-worlds-
most-...](https://decrypt.co/25629/status-wants-to-be-the-worlds-most-private-
instant-messaging-app?amp=1)

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eqtn
WhatsApp in India introduced this 2 years back via UPI (Unified Payments
Interface). Although UPI payments are popular in India via GooglePay, PayTM,
etc, payments via WhatsApp is rare.

~~~
namanaggarwal
Payments via Whatsapp is rare because of a reason. That functionality is in
beta and only available to a million users. They are stuck with getting
regulatory approvals for 2 years.

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tinyhouse
Smart. But is it too late? Payment apps such as Venmo and others became very
popular in recent years. Everyone already has one installed on their phone and
connected to their bank account. Although at least Venmo is such a crappy and
stupid app that maybe it's not too late.

This just shows again how slow big companies are. The idea of allowing
payments within whatsapp has been talked about for at least 3 years now. They
are only now starting to experiment with it.

~~~
jmiskovic
You might be in a bubble. Article mentions India and Brazil, where people
still prefer cash transactions and payment apps are not at all common.
Introducing payment service in chat app people already use will blow away
competition. I don't like it one bit, but WhatsApp is posed to make big impact
on payment system.

~~~
mmsimanga
My home country, African country, is in big trouble when it comes to the
economy. It is possible to "send" money or goods home. You just head to
advertised stores in your resident country and hand your money over. Your
relatives at home can go collect money/goods from a store that's part of the
network. No systems involved except WhatsApp.

~~~
jmiskovic
I heard this situation mentioned as big use-case for bitcoin. Is bitcoin
actually used to send money back to Africa families?

Also, what is the network you mention? Is this official WhatsApp payment
system or some group of stores using WhatsApp as ledger?

~~~
mmsimanga
The more technical folk would agree with you. I have heard many say this
situation is ripe for bitcoin but in practice I have yet to encounter a person
using bitcoin in my home country.

Network probably wasn't the most clear word to use. I meant any one of the
physical stores in home country that work with the agent in the resident
country. My observation is an agent from a specific area in home country will
work with the stores from his area in his home country. He or she collects
"real" money in the resident country and the shop owners provide the
money/goods in home country. All this happens through regular WhatsApp. Not
the new money feature.

~~~
jmiskovic
Thank you for clarifying. I'm not advocating for bitcoin, just fact-checking
their (for me the strongest) argument for wider adoption.

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solotronics
does anybody know how this actually works? is it a database and its settled
through corportations whatsapp has setup in each country?

~~~
pascoej
They partnered with local issuing banks (Banco do Brasil, Nubank, and Sicredi)
and payment processors (Cielo.)

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hckr_news
Is Facebook allowing developers to build apps on top of this payment system?
API open to developers? Perhaps integrating Libra with some form of
ROSCA(money pool) app and decrease the risk of cash on hand Not sure if I've
seen anything that addresses this.

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pr91
Whatsapp has had this feature in India for a while. It uses UPI (Unified
Payments Interface)

~~~
namanaggarwal
In beta. They are stuck with regulatory approvals to release this to masses

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Lordarminius
I DON'T WANT IT.

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xkgt
Wechat has had this for ages.

~~~
machiaweliczny
But are they supporting many countries?

Whatsapp is used in half of the world, do I guess handling payments might be
harder, unless it's for US only.

~~~
andylynch
Looking from the UK, and using app like Revolut and Transferwise, my
perception is that the US is relatively harder for a global firm, given
payments appear to be regulated there at the state level (especially compared
to Europe having SEPA). Running a payments processor is complicated and an
international one much more so!! Interestingly they seem to have piloted in
India and are launching with Brazil, which makes some sense given the size of
their domestic markets.

