
Nobody Trusts Facebook, Twitter Is a Hot Mess, What Is Snapchat Doing? - pdog
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-22/nobody-trusts-facebook-twitter-is-a-hot-mess-what-is-snap-s-evan-spiegel-doing
======
newswriter99
Takes three paragraphs to get to the answer: Instagram stories.

Snapschat is busy trying to remain relevant as Instagram one-ups it again and
again. Other than teenagers using it to sext, Snapchat is largely useless
compared to Insta.

~~~
sevensor
Seems like the bigger theme in the article is that the company is being run by
a child.

Edit: I should perhaps expand on this. TFA repeatedly mentions Spiegel's
tender age and his inexperience, and it points out that one of his core
management techniques is a thing he picked up in prep school.

~~~
brootstrap
Yeah those meetings they mentioned (council meetings), sounds like the worst
meeting i've ever had at my company, but 10 times as cheesey and 'make me want
to kill myself'y.

------
lolive
Apart from the title, I do not see any argument why Twitter is a to-be-
replaced social network. Personnaly, I see it as a wonderful way to keep track
of the topics of interest of people _I do not know personnally_. Plus I can
comment, and these people can comment back. Sounds good to me.

~~~
jonshariat
If you haven't been following it, the issue is not dealing with racists, calls
for violence, hate speech, bullying, etc. There have been major clear cases
and they refuse to act.

~~~
minieggs
They've chosen to act w/ private accounts, muted accounts, muted words, and
blocked accounts. Personally, I find muted words a powerful feature but
perhaps my story is a bit different as I don't find myself targeted by hate
too often (ever). I'm hesitant to believe kicking accounts off the platform is
a great solve.

Does any social media platform take part in shadow banning? How has that
worked out?

~~~
sli
> Does any social media platform take part in shadow banning? How has that
> worked out?

Reddit does, but I don't know how well it actually works since everyone is
aware of it and can easily detect when they've been shadowbanned by simply
using a second account.

~~~
Mindwipe
Even Reddit's CEO has said that their shadowbanning approach is terrible and
he wants rid of it but they haven't had time to build anything better yet.

------
AndrewKemendo
This is a great example of how personnel leadership doesn't matter for
success, so long as your product leadership is successful. The product success
subsidizes everything else, including absent or toxic leadership.

And yes, Snapchat is clearly successful. They might be taking hits from the
majors and close down in the long run, but Snap did create a new product
category and redefined how video is consumed. They were the clear leaders in
mobile AR also, which people don't seem to appreciate.

It's been really hard for me to come to this conclusion about leadership,
because I grew up in a culture where personnel leadership is paramount - if
you're a bad leader you can get those under you killed, or they'll kill you.

The fact that this just doesn't translate to business, especially where
businesses are so focused on consumer products, is a challenge.

~~~
ryandrake
I think as with everything in business, people vastly underestimate the role
luck plays. There are companies with good leadership and good products that
fail. There are companies with poor leadership and poor products that succeed.
There are companies with poor leadership but good product that succeed, and
some that fail... and all combinations of these attributes and outcomes. There
is little causality and everyone is basically just rolling dice.

------
madrox
I once had a discussion with someone who does brand auditing for a living, and
they said the brand perception of social media in general (and FB
specifically) is very similar to the IRS.

Whether FB is evil or not (it's a very rare person who tries to be evil), no
one loves them. People only love communities they can wrap their arms around,
and past a certain size that isn't possible.

If Snapchat is lucky that'll happen to them one day, too.

------
kin
IMO there's still a lot of room for Snap to do something. They still have an
opportunity to seize, same for Twitter.

For example, there's a subset of content creators on Snap that charges for
premium content (a separate private account w/ more content). Subscription and
payment is done outside of the Snap app. Cancellations and payment
confirmations are all done manually. I'm not even sure if Snap realizes this
but they can totally make money off of it.

Now that Evan is being more open and less dictatorial, someone will notice and
bring opportunities like these to his attention.

------
Maro
Based on my brief time at FB (in 2016-2017), FB is not evil. MZ is trying to
do the right thing, overall. Using this as a major piece of
positioning/propaganda is not going to work for Spiegel. Also, if they ever
want to make money, they'll be playing the exact same game as FB. That's going
to be tough, as by now Snapchat is just a feature (of FB). Also, I can tell
you, FB employees are laser focused on executing and making a measurable
impact (and getting a big bonus), there's no group therapy bitching. I don't
have any love/hate for Snapchat, but it is going to be very tough for them. (I
don't own either stock.)

~~~
samstave
The correct phrase, IMO, would be "cumulative shadiness" for FB...

Individually, and within groups, the work of the employees and teams at FB is
nothing short of amazing (and apple, google, etc)... cumulatively though? The
nature of these companies are not in the best interests of individual users,
and when looked at the power and impact the company as a whole has over any
individual in specific, is pretty obviously not in the favor of the
individual.

The only problem that I have with anything related to the internet reality, is
that it is no longer possible to not be connected to it and have any modicum
semblance of a modern existence.

~~~
Maro
I have a great time on FB/Messenger. It's a tool, it's up to everybody to use
it in a way that is a net positive for them. I have friends/acquintances in
10+ cities, and it's a great way to keep in touch. As you mention, this "way"
is very different then if we would meet in person, but that is out of the
question, as we are separated by 1,000 - 10,000 km. The alternative, on
average, is not to hear anything about these old friends and never meet them,
lose touch, and that's the end of it. That's what happened with people who are
not on FB (and living away).

~~~
slugiscool99
I think the fact that you can’t turn off read receipts is a kind of shady way
to keep you using the app. You also can’t turn off notifications for a chat
without going into it and notifying the participants you’ve read the message.

~~~
sp527
It absolutely is a "shady way to keep you using the app", in addition to a
whole host of other subtle things you wouldn't even notice. My intern project
one summer was a (failed, thankfully) experiment with one of the darkest
patterns imaginable. Everything is very carefully tuned and measured against
relevant stats. If it looks good in some place like Venezuela or Zimbabwe, it
gets lined up for general rollout.

------
swasheck
Could it be a combination of saturation and fatigue? Sure, each of these
platforms delivers a different experience, but there's really only so much you
can "share" and, moreso, there's only so much that you can ingest. At some
point in time I'm sure it gets exhausting updating all the things and keeping
up with all the things.

------
blauditore
> Snap employees complain about his dictatorial management style and penchant
> for secrecy.

This is not too surprising to me. I remember how he actively worked towards
preventing Snapchat from existing on the windows (phone/mobile) platform,
purely due to Microsoft hate. This went as them going out of their way to
targetedly fight third party windows phone apps until that indie dev gave up
disappointed. That was pretty pathetic.

~~~
Analemma_
Everything I've read about Evan Spiegel indicates that he's really cargo-
culting trying to be Steve Jobs, with no real understanding of why Jobs was
successful.

~~~
Benjammer
>“Why would I go around the company and just chat with people? Like that would
be so awkward”

He sounds like a 17 year old, not necessarily that he has no idea what he's
doing, imo. Just seems super immature a lot of the time.

~~~
pcpcpc
full quote: "I had a pretty serious Christian upbringing. I remember growing
up I was taught to be small, be a turtle,” he says. “I remember thinking, Why
would I go around the company and just chat with people? Like that would be so
awkward. Now I go walk around the office and get a ton of emails like, ‘Oh, my
God, that was awesome you came by.’ ”

but bloomberg did only highlight the bit you quoted and put it several
paragraphs above the full quote...

~~~
analyst74
That's one of the many techniques journalists use to create false perspective
without out right lying.

------
umvi
Maybe it's just that my phone (Nexus 5X) is getting old, but Snapchat is
probably the worst Android app I've ever used. Not sure how the iOS experience
is.

Let's go down the list:

\- HUGE (>300 MB)

\- Extremely Slow/Laggy UI

\- Battery Suck (mainly because it auto turns on location services, etc.)

\- Sometimes soft bricks my camera (need to restart in order to use my normal
camera app)

I only use it to stay in the loop of my family members, maybe I should start
campaigning everyone to switch to Instagram.

~~~
ekianjo
> \- Sometimes soft bricks my camera (need to restart in order to use my
> normal camera app)

Skype manages to do that on Android as well recently (while it used to work
fine before).

~~~
GuiA
If userland software can soft brick the camera, the problem is not the
userland software.

~~~
rjsw
Is that a Linux thing rather than being specific to Android ? V4L does a lot
of camera stuff in userland.

~~~
izacus
Android doesn't really user V4L (at least not in most devices). Fact of the
matter is that camera drivers are rather buggy on many devices and if you
manage to crash the camera library or the kernel module, it'll most likely
break other apps.

You can of course blame that on Android, but pretty much no operating system
will recover a device when the driver itself is broken and refuses to reset
the device properly :)

------
creaghpatr
I checked the sponsored stories section recently and the first one was called
"WHY MY FRIENDS ATE MY SEVERED FOOT" by Vice Media. I did not inquire further.

Stopped checking Stories after that.

------
bogomipz
>"The meeting I attended started with an employee lighting a candle in the
center of the circle to dedicate the session to a cause, and then proceeded
with a series of free-­association prompts. A moderator asked us to tell a
story about our names or a memory related to summer. Outside the round room,
morale at Snap has been low recently. Inside it, employees were connecting
with each other, at times emotionally, about their childhoods, hopes, and
fears."

This could be scene from an episode of HBO's Silicon Valley. This seems more
like an exercise in humiliation than morale boosting. What's next Ayahuasca
ceremonies, shaman, drum circles, primal scream therapy?

I would quit before I participated in any of this nonsense. This CEO sounds
like a real piece of work. This is why you shouldn't buy stock that withholds
all voting rights from public shareholders.

------
sandworm101
"Inside it, employees were connecting with each other, at times emotionally,
about their childhoods, hopes, and fears. Council etiquette prohibits me from
telling you what ­others shared, but during one of my turns with the geode, I
told the group an embarrassing childhood story about getting sick during a
family beach vacation. "

Scientology much?

Really. This is exactly the technique used to indoctrinate people into a cult.
It is all about getting emotional hooks into the new member of the group.
Secrecy, and the corresponding threat it implies, that creates loyalty.
Knowing the secrets of others fosters group identity.

Snap probably doesn't realize it, but this will not end well. It does not
scale. Eventually "counsel" will become a secret room for the "in" people of
the leadership team. Knowledge of secrets will divide groups. Eventually
something will happen and things will implode.

------
phobosdeimos
Nobody trusts this sector. Was the same for doctors a hundred years ago. Now
doctors take an oath and lose their license if they are caught doing something
unethical. Maybe the tech sector will get there one day too. Until then assume
hostility.

~~~
buboard
> Was the same for doctors a hundred years ago. Now doctors take an oath and
> lose their license

The Hippocratic oath is 2200 years old.

~~~
scrumbledober
I don't really care what oath the doctor took (especially considering the
actual wording of the hippocratic oath) but I definitely take comfort in the
medical board's ability to revoke their license.

~~~
buboard
The point is that the comparison with doctors doesn't make much sense (and
neither is medical ethics a recent thing). Doctors are judged by their
continuous practice, but developers/entrepreneurs would not be ethically
"judged" because of their programming style, but because of the things they
create, which transcend them and remain in their absence, much like anything
in engineering.

(let alone that revokign a license does nothing to stop them from building it
anyway)

~~~
utkarshsinha
Would having a "license" for companies instead of individual devs make more
sense? Imagine Google losing its license to use personal data to target
advertisements - this would make them much more sensitive to protecting their
users from malicious entities.

------
lingzb
Sounds like Evan is copying Mark this time :p

[https://www.fastcompany.com/3052887/mark-zuckerbergs-
growth-...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3052887/mark-zuckerbergs-growth-chart)

------
40acres
Snap's recent performance and articles like this just solidify my view that
Spigel is a bad CEO and that the Snap board has very little they can do to
turn the company around. Evan seems like a great product guy but when it comes
to executing as CEO he needs a lot of help. The fact that the board has not
gotten a COO on board to help guide him is an indictment on them. Corporate
governance in the valley continues to fall short.

~~~
partiallypro
I'm not sure he's a great product guy...what product do they have? Filters?
Auto-deleting messages? Spectacles? What a boondoggle that has been. The mere
fact that he says the company is a photography company should be enough to
make any investor flee.

------
saurik
Never mind Snapchat, we all know this is Venmo's moment (if only users hadn't
been so foolish as to reject the _fun_ social media experience Venmo offers
:/).

[https://youtu.be/BWFLztKBrLY](https://youtu.be/BWFLztKBrLY)

------
Hysterisis
Even as someone who hates typical definitions of professionalism, sitting in a
kindergarten like room and having DNMs with my colleagues sounds like one of
the least professional things I can think of.

------
at-fates-hands
Spiegel miscalculated and its cost him billions. He had multiple opportunities
to sell Snapchat to the competitors who are now still growing and copying his
features while his own platform has essentially stalled out.

A verge article detailed its decline a few months ago:

[https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/18/17366528/snapchat-
decline...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/18/17366528/snapchat-decline-
internet-ghost-towns)

And the previous HN discussion on said article:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17431663](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17431663)

~~~
sp332
Facebook went up against Snapchat directly, pushing Stories as hard as
possible in all their apps. There's nothing inherently wrong with the product,
it just got out-competed by a bigger player.

------
kaycebasques
Didn’t read the article, but just noting my impression based on the title
(which is currently “Nobody Trusts Facebook, Twitter is a Hot Mess, What is
Snapchat Doing?”)... maybe social media is in a “trough of disillusionment”
akin to Gartner’s Hype Cycle? I’m suggesting this based on my interpretation
that there seems to be a pervasive dissatisfaction and mistrust of social
media in general.

------
captainbland
Mastodon is growing on me. These big ol' VC driven social media giants are all
overgrown and the cracks are showing. With mastodon, if one instance screws
up, just go to another and still contact friends. I can even choose an
instance with the economic and decision making model of my choosing, or run
one myself and just engage with the federation on my own terms.

~~~
TremendousJudge
>just go to another and still contact friends

the only problem is that you can only have friends of the type of people that
use Mastodon

~~~
egypturnash
are you sure this is not actually an advantage

~~~
notheguyouthink
It is and it isn't. I imagine your humor implies that technical people are
using Mastadon, ie the same type that would be using HN, but the reality is
that while that is true, Twitter "rejects" are also using Mastadon. Sometimes
this means communities filled with very.. controversial people.

~~~
captainbland
Yeah again I guess this is the choice isn't it? Those communities spring up
everywhere, but instances can still block one-another. I'd say it's better to
have a choice of moderation style than one grand overseer.

------
Rjevski
> What is Snapchat doing?

Going bankrupt?

------
urtrs
> The meeting I attended started with an employee lighting a candle in the
> center of the circle to dedicate the session to a cause, and then proceeded
> with a series of free-­association prompts. A moderator asked us to tell a
> story about our names or a memory related to summer.

This seems to me more like a cult than a company but maybe it works.

~~~
dvtrn
I'd be inordinately curious to hear from anyone as to _how_ it works though.

~~~
Filligree
There was an article very recently about how rituals help. Let's see...
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17817912](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17817912)

Cults do the same thing, but doesn't mean it's inherently culty. It just
easily lends itself to that.

~~~
dvtrn
Well yes, I can certainly understand the impact of rituals, I'm curious to
know more about this specific one. Sorry but in a workplace context, lighting
a candle and commemorating the moment like this just feels...kitschy to me

------
lanevorockz
Nobody that is smart trusts a company that provides services for free. If you
are not paying you are the product and not the client.

~~~
AJRF
Unrelated:

Chrome extension that changes the sentence "If you are not paying you are the
product and not the client" to white space.

~~~
gmueckl
This comes to my mind: [https://xkcd.com/2015/](https://xkcd.com/2015/)

------
decisionfiction
I feel old to use Snapchat but what I care about : word on the street -
possible crypto integration shhh...

------
late2part
I don't know anyone over 18 who uses Snapchat besides celebrities.

~~~
jarboot
Just wanted to say as a 20-25 year old, snapchat is still extremely popular
among people I know. The perception is snapchat for friend's daily lives,
instagram for following celebs/creators and permanent posts, facebook for
events and extended family, and messenger for email/wechat/whatsapp
functionality. It's the primary way I keep in contact with acquaintances, and
many other people I know are the same.

It's a more intimate version of social media that is typically only used by
smartphone-savvy people and it's perfect for this. I see nothing besides my
friend's content and a few ads between viewing their stories, while instagram
inserts ads and algorithmically sorts content in the feed. Once I go through
every one of my friend's stories, there's nothing to keep me on the app and
endlessly scrolling like instagram. To me and others, insta is intentionally
addictive Posting permanent posts there about your life can sometimes come
across as vain, while snapchat is more of a window to view your friend's world
through and gives very open statistics like who has seen a story, if someone
has opened a snap, etc.

I have my problems with snapchat, like poor android support, slow startup
time, bloat, and sponsored stories on the right side are tabloid trash. But
it's still very heavily used in America. Most friends outside of the US say
that it declined in use in their European or african countries like a fad, but
it's become a standard in the US. Those of you saying it's useless besides
teenagers using it to sext or not knowing anyone above 18 that uses snapchat
look out of touch or like you're pushing an agenda. It might be declining but
it is still a large force and very used!

~~~
rconti
I've never used Snapchat, but I like this description where there's an "end"
to the content, rather than infinite scrolling. You can catch up, and be done.

To reply to another commenter here, I, too, am "old" and _generally_ find any
video content exhausting. I like text and pictures; the idea of an experience
to which I am captive feels suffocating; I feel like I have no choice. Oh, it
has sound, great, now I have to put my headphones on. Or I have to watch this
youtube video eventually get to the point, or a gif of indeterminate length.

I feel the same way about Instagram stories and video, BUT I think generally
these platforms (I'm sure Snap included) at least have a scrubber so you know
when it will be over.

------
sergiotapia
>Employees show up in groups of about a dozen, sit cross-legged on black
cushions, and take turns with the “talking piece,” a heart-shaped purple geode
that gives the bearer the right to confidentially share deep thoughts.

Is this SOP in sillicon valley?

~~~
deadmetheny
I HAVE THE CONCH

------
gaius
_lavish parties for Halloween and New Year’s Eve, which came with their own
code of secrecy: no photos._

That speaks volumes in and of itself about the company culture. When a company
bans its staff from using their own product what does that tell you?

~~~
nradov
It tells you they didn't want any evidence for potential sexual harassment
lawsuits resulting from drunken antics at company parties.

------
qubax
Nobody trusts facebook? Is that why half the world is on facebook readily
giving them their private info?

Twitter is a hot mess? Is that why the president and most of the journalists
are on twitter?

Who cares what snapchat is doing?

I don't get articles like this. What's the point?

