
What is really happening in Ukraine - DeusExMachina
http://www.slideshare.net/NazarBartosik/what-is-really-happening-in-ukraine
======
gtrubetskoy
What is _really_ happening in Ukraine is that _both_ sides of this conflict
(pro-Euro and against) are absolutely corrupt and the people know it. The
tragedy of this is that no one from the government or opposition represents
the will of the people. The population of Ukraine really just wants an end to
corruption and a better national identity, euro-integration was just the last
straw, but not fundamental to this crisis (as much as we in the west would
like to believe that).

~~~
dmytrish
Yes, you're right that Ukrainian opposition is still a part of the corrupt
system, but there's a hope that Klichko (who lived in Europe for a long time)
is a fresh blood here. Also, current Yanukovych's and Party of Regions
corruption is outrageous even for Ukraine. This is the true reason of the
revolution.

People fight with the state sincerely, I don't see much sane people who are
sincerely supporting Yanukovych now.

~~~
gtrubetskoy
Klichko doesn't strike me as an honest person, he's as corrupt as the next
guy, but that's just MHO.

~~~
anovikov
Correct, the people are not there to replace personalities, they are to
destroy the whole political system making resurrection of successive corrupt
governments impossible. So 'opposition leaders' are not really leaders of
Maidan, people don't give much respect to them, it is more like Muslim
Brothers who rode the protest wave in Egypt to come into power, not being
protest leaders in the first place. Much like Lenin who didn't organize
Russian Revolution either, only riding its wave into power. I hope this time
will be different.

------
anovikov
That has some elements of propaganda yes, but from my talks with many
Ukrainians including several of my employees, this seem to be more or less
fair depiction of the facts.

Nobody calls protesters Nazis, but Russian media view of the subject is indeed
extremely biased.

What's worst of this is that the view of it from Eastern and Western sides of
Ukraine is totally different, too (while both dislike Yanukovich strongly,
which is a big difference from the state of things just 3 months ago). West
dislikes him for being evil, East dislikes him from being stupid and not
protecting their case strongly enough.

~~~
agrostis
Re. Russian media: I wonder, why their view (extremely biased, no doubt) could
be of any concern to HN readers who are predominantly English-speaking and get
much of their information from Internet sources?

~~~
ash
Because there are Russian-speaking HNers too. And Ukrainian topic certainly
attracted more of them to this thread.

------
Igor_TN
I also grew up in central Ukraine and have my close relatives there. As much
as I despise the current government, I must say that this "beautifully done"
presentation is completely one-sided, unbalanced, and manipulates with both
real and made-up facts. And, this is always non-constructive and even
dangerous. The situation is much more complicated. I am really afraid that
this is going closer and closer towards a civil war and split of the country.
Presentations like this one only work in favor of that.

~~~
mratzloff
> _I must say that this "beautifully done" presentation is completely one-
> sided, unbalanced, and manipulates with both real and made-up facts._

OK... How?

~~~
gkoz
Is there any evidence or confirmation by the press of 'dozens of unidentified
dead bodies?'

~~~
darkbot
Not that I am aware of.

------
Demiurge
This is propaganda and has no place on Hacker News. Anything that says 'Civil
War Has Been Ignited", when there is no civil war YET, is war mongering for
some cause.

~~~
milkshakes
how would you define "Civil War"?

~~~
Demiurge
how would you? if a demonstration turning violent is "Civil War", they should
take notice at the G8.

~~~
akjj
Protestors weren't taking over government buildings during G8 conferences.

~~~
Demiurge
That's a good point, but they would have, if they had lots of small unguarded
municipal buildings. Not to be sarcastic, this is still just a few thousands
of extremists being destructive. A Civil War is when you have armed forces on
both sides, a big population willing to take arms. Most adult people want this
to stop and get back to work.

~~~
vitalique
> this is still just a few thousands of extremists being destructive... Most
> adult people want this to stop and get back to work.

I'm not even going to ask you how exactly do you know this, because this is
completely untrue. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of
Ukrainians who already actively expressed their support to current shift in
Ukrainian political landscape and their distrust to corrupt politicians
currently in charge of the country, call it a war or a revolution. Arguing
that and calling them "few thousands of extremists" is laughable - just have a
look at any of the livestreams. Also, most adult people _are_ at work. Ukraine
is a big country.

From your comments I conclude that they have some agenda behind them. You are
either trolling, deliberately trying to misinform HN community, or doing both
of those things.

~~~
Demiurge
I wonder if you are trolling, because your first claim a strawman argument
based on conflation.

>There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Ukrainians who already
actively expressed their support to current shift in Ukrainian political
landscape and their distrust to corrupt politicians currently in charge of the
country, call it a war or a revolution

Yes, of course, millions support a shift in Ukrainian political landscape and
distrust to corrupt politicians. But I DON'T call that civil war and
revolution. That is a civil process. These are not the people picking up
stones and attacking police and government buildings right now. Like you,
yourself, say, these people want to be at work.

------
darkbot
Wow, some this is some epic propaganda.

Closer to truth is that this is more a coup-d'etat by the Ukrainian fascist
paramilitary. The liberal Ukrainian opposition has been chased out of greater
parts of the Maidan square and is now in control of "Right Sector", a loosely
based umbrella coalition between various fascist and nazi organisations and
parties. These extremist wants to ignite a civil war to "cleanse Ukraine from
all Russian elements". Pretty scary shit, regarding that a lot of people in
Ukraine has Russian as their main language.

The media has mainly filtered this out so far, because they favor anything
that destabilize Ukraina in fear of Russia.

I wish that western media would stop feed a biased and false view of what's
really happening in Ukraine. Right now their a fueling a fire that could get
out of hand with disastrous results.

The current situation is in dire need of de-escalation.

Here are few rare articles that's shedding some light in to the situation:

Ukraine: far-right extremists at core of 'democracy' protest
[http://www.channel4.com/news/kiev-svoboda-far-right-
protests...](http://www.channel4.com/news/kiev-svoboda-far-right-protests-
right-sector-riot-police)

Ukrainian far-right group claims to be co-ordinating violence in Kiev
[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/23/ukrainian-
far-r...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/23/ukrainian-far-right-
groups-violence-kiev-pravy-sektor)

Far-right extremists staged a paramilitary funeral for shot Ukrainian
protester (and the media didn't notice)
[http://imgur.com/a/LSvOk](http://imgur.com/a/LSvOk)

EDIT: There is _a lot of_ unfounded rumors about the government cracking down
on the protestors in Ukraine on Twitter. There's also a lot of _old_ images,
videos and news that are being recirculated that does not reflect the current
situation. Please, double or triple check facts and sources before retweeting
any (dis)info.

EDIT2: No, I am not Ukranian, nor Russian. Also I don't support either side. I
think either regime is equally corrupted.

~~~
strlen
> No, I am not Ukranian, nor Russian. Also I don't support either side. I
> think either regime is equally corrupted.

I am sorry, but as an ethnically Jewish, Belarusian-born, Russian-speaker
residing in US, I have to say what you're engaging in is the equivalent of
"mansplaining" (EDIT: or "patronizing" if you prefer).

To wit, on my Facebook, the only person who is presently in Ukraine (who
attended school and a university in US before moving back to Ukraine after
graduation) is also Jewish, takes his Jewish roots far more seriously than I
do (he had his icons set to the Israeli flag a multiple times), and is posting
protest related pictures, and reposting _Russian language_ messages like "My
dad was seized by Berkut. Are there any lawyers here that can help out?"

In terms of Ukrainian-Americans posting on this that I know none shown any
signs of ultra nationalism and have plenty of Jewish, Russian, and other
former-USSR friends in US, and in terms of religion happen to include
agnostic, Orthodox (Western Ukraine has a larger Catholic presence as it was
part of Poland and Austro-Hungarian Empire), and a Muslim.

Here's an article on this, by the way, about Jewish community's view of this:
[http://www.jta.org/2013/12/08/news-opinion/world/young-
jews-...](http://www.jta.org/2013/12/08/news-opinion/world/young-jews-take-
part-in-ukrainian-protests-along-with-ultranationalists)

(I tend to note that Passionate Americans That Know Everything Because They
Read it On the Internet Somehow are going to likely 'splain this way with a
Zionist conspiracy -- in a language very similar to what ultranationalists
themselves use, ironically -- but Israel itself generally takes a
"realpolitik" approach to these kinds of situations and the Israeli
_government_ has made no statements).

My personal view of this is the extent to which the Western Media is under-
reporting this story (and in my view they are: this has rarely, for example,
come up on my Yahoo News pager which is generally syndicated from mainstream
sources) is playing into the hands of ultra-nationalists. Keep in mind that
Ukraine is far from the only country in Europe to have ultra-nationalist voted
in as part genuine views and part protest votes: Golden Dawn in Greece had far
greater electoral results and is far scarier, there's also Jobbik in Hungary,
BNP in UK, National Front in France, and so on...

It is very much in Russia's interest to make sure ultra-nationalists become
the dominant party in this: should the leader of Svoboda run against
Yanukovich, the result would be a land-slide for Yanukovich. The best analogue
for this is actually probably when David Duke (a KKK leader, anti-Semite, the
full nine yards) ran for governor of Lousiana against a known crook (the
bumper stickers were "vote for the crook, it's important"). He received many
votes as a protest, but it would be insane to think his views represented the
mainstream conservative US politics (he ran as a republican party candidate,
but his opponent was endorsed by the republican party).

I should also note that generally in former USSR "right" doesn't mean what it
means in US: the political spectrum there is best describes as a circle: mix
of left-wing and right-wing liberals on one end (a spectrum between those who
favour a Scandanvian-style welfare state and those leaning towards classical
liberalism -- essentially the entire US/UK/Canada would simply be called
"liberalism" in former USSR) and a "red-brown alliance" on the other.

I'd also add that Svoboda is actually very much _anti-EU_ (again not much
different from other far-right morons in Europe) and realistically speaking,
should they come to power in any shape or form (they will never win a
democratic election), they'll be overthrown far quicker than you can say
"faster than Morsi/Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt". Since anti-Nazism is a very
strong unifying theme between Russia _and_ Western Europe, no one will
actually tolerate a neo-Nazi state in Europe.

~~~
elohesra
Can we please drop this 'mansplaining' bullshit? It's as offensive as
referring to feelings of being othered as 'girlfeeling'. These kinds of
sordid, petty, gendered derogations have no place on HN. There is literally no
need for an insultingly sexist synonym for 'patronizing', when 'patronizing'
already exists as a less offensive (and better understood) equivalent.

It's a shame really, because you've clearly taken the time to write a well
structured and thoughtful response to the parent, and the use of that sexist
slur in the first line sets a terrible tone for the rest of the comment.

~~~
strlen
I see what you're you're trying to say, but as a man (who was introduced to
this term by a girlfriend who caught me 'splaining myself) I personally find
the term to be both hilarious and -- most importantly to -- somewhat more
explicit in what it is (explaining away while lacking context) as opposed to
the term patronizing. Then again English is not my native language, so perhaps
I'm reading the word "patronizing" too literally here.

~~~
elohesra
I can see that you clearly meant no harm, but the problem with the term is
that it creates divide between men and women where there need not be one. It
attempts to gender the concept of being clueless and patronizing solely with
men. For this reason, it is clearly sexist, and I'm uncomfortable with sexist
language being bandied around.

I fail to see what good can ever come of using language that would cause
division among people, when there are other ways of communicating the same
concept just as effectively. Of course, speech should remain free and should
you wish to use the word then that should be your right, but use it knowing
that -- for people like me -- it not only offends, but immediately lessens
your credibility.

EDIT: Sorry, that comes off as a little hostile, but that word pissed me off.
Still, you don't deserve any particular rage since your explanation shows you
clearly meant nothing by it and didn't realize it'd offend.

------
sethbannon
People being kidnapped from hospital beds and tortured by their own
government. It's hard to imagine a more depraved situation.

~~~
D9u
How about drone strikes which target and kill a US citizen and his teenage
son?

~~~
tptacek
I shouldn't indulge these unproductive subthreads, but I have mild nerd autism
and am easily trolled.

It's my experience that people who bring up Anwar al-Awlaki and his son ---
particularly when using the term "US citizen" in the same breath --- rarely
know anything specific about what actually happened.

To start with, al-Awlaki and his son Abdulrahman weren't killed together, but
at separate times.

Abdulrahman was never targeted. He was killed a month later because he was for
some reason in the same cafe as Ibrahim al-Banna, the day-to-day operational
leader of AQAP. al-Banna was the target of the attack. The USG had no reason
to know of Abdulrahman's presence in Shabwa, Yemen, which wasn't under the
control of the Yemeni government and continues to be the site of bloody
conflicts between militants and the Yemeni state. What was Abdulrahman doing
there? Super-parent Anwar al-Awlaki brought him there, to an AQAP war zone
that was hosting conflicts not just with the US but with its own host country.

Anwar al-Awlaki was targeted by the US. al-Awlaki was a US citizen. But, like
the tens of Americans who left the US to fight for Hitler in World War 2, al-
Awlaki deliberately placed himself outside the protections of his citizenship
and from that vantage point tried to wage war on his home country. al-Awlaki
built up a serial murderer's resume as a sponsor, planner, and coordinator of
multiple attacks on civilians in the US and UK. The only reason anyone
questions his role in those attacks is because they ususally failed --- the
planes didn't blow up, the stab victims didn't die.

People have strange ideas of how "citizenship" works. The American government
has no arrest powers in Shabwa and Anyan Province Yemen. There is no due
process in that part of the world whatsoever. The USG had three options in al-
Awlaki's case: (1) ignore him and hope that he didn't eventually manage
actually blow up a passenger plane, (2) kill him with a targeted airstrike, or
(3) invade Yemen to capture him. The USG chose the option that killed the
fewest innocent civilians.

~~~
jhuckestein
I agree with you that citizenship should not protect you from the consequences
of your actions. Even so, I don't understand how a targeted drone strike in
Yemen is an acceptable choice for the USG, regardless of who is killed.

Would it be okay for another country to conduct such drone strikes on US soil?
If not, which countries are allowed do do such things, and where, and why?

How can you prove that lives were saved by the drone strike?

~~~
ctdonath
"OK" and "allowed" in this context practically refers to whether and what the
host/target country will do about it. If that's "nothing" or very close
thereto, then by Law Of The Jungle (which is the nature of military action)
the answer is "yes". If that's "the perpetrators will be hunted down & killed,
and the presiding government overthrown, and maybe another country's
government will also get overthrown while we're at it", then the answer is
"no".

The point of military action is that all other viable diplomatic options have
been exhausted, and something _must_ be done to stop an avowed enemy. We're
not going to sit around waiting for known terrorists to carry out successful
attacks on innocents before doing something to stop them. "Reflective
contemplation is not required in the presence of an upraised knife." Once such
military action is deemed necessary, the question then is whether a single
drone destroying a few rooms and their occupants with zero direct risk to US
troops is (or isn't) preferable to destroying several city blocks (at minimum)
and their occupants with significant risk to our personnel. You demand proof,
but only from a position of prejudiciously rejecting any given.

~~~
tptacek
FWIW: The "upraised knife" quote is Oliver Wendell Holmes, in Brown v US, and
goes "Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted
knife." This is Holmes rejecting the idea that a defendant invoking self
defense must carefully reason whether he can safely flee, rather than
employing deadly force.

~~~
ctdonath
This is also the much-overlooked basis for "stand your ground" laws, which are
not a license for citizens to kill, but are instead a reminder to the state
that if deadly force is warranted then retreat is not a viable option to
demand of the defendant.

------
arca_vorago
That's actually a very well done summary. I have an acquaintance that is
Ukrainian and I have been asking her about it. Pretty much what happened so
far can be summed up as "The leadership betrayed the Ukrainian people to
Russia under pressure from Putin" and both of generally agree that it's too
late now to stop, and that the protesters have to be at least partially
successful or else it is likely there will be more bloodshed.

Being self designated geopolitics guy though, my curiosity is "Where is the
US?" We know they were involved in Georgia in 08, and we know the US has a
vested interest in giving the Russians a black eye, so I would think they
would be involved somehow, but have not seen as such.

~~~
Demiurge
I wonder what you'll think if you have another friend who is saying completely
the opposite.

~~~
arca_vorago
Point taken, but as a person who tries very hard to not let my filter bubble
be too small, I am surprised at the lack of people talking about what I
suppose could be considered the North Ukrainian point of view. I did see a few
mentions that they would be more aligned to Russia, but haven't seen any in
depth reporting from that perspective. Have you seen such?

~~~
Demiurge
Yes, the issue is, this is quiet majority. The subject is contentious enough
that people who are not pro EU keep quiet about it, because they don't feel as
strongly about it as the 'revolution' people. On one hand, you have people say
"the problem is clear, hang Putin, hang Yanukovich! If we join EU we will be
transported to Paris!". On the other hand you have people who just think
that's unrealistic, but they can't put it in a slogan.

~~~
arca_vorago
Can you link any of this, please? I am genuinely interested.

------
stargazer-3
This is much more informative and complete than any Western media news report.
(Disclosure: I grew up in Kiev)

~~~
mitchelllc
Yanukovich refused to sign EU association in November. I am wondering if the
EU association was approved by most of Ukrainian through voting (or other
ways), and Yanukovich disobeyed the voting results.

~~~
stargazer-3
Association pact is a purely economical agreement that is mediated by
governments only. So no, he did not violate anything. However, 42% of the
population supports European integration, while only 31% wants to join the
Customs Union, seen as USSR v2.0

~~~
levosmetalo
And that is the problem here. No side has a clear majority, and any decision
is going to be tough. Forcing the decision, either one, in this moment can
lead only to country wide divide, since both parties feel stronly about this
topic, and no compromise is possible.

Whatever is my opinion is not important, but "huge majority" of 42% shouldn't
be allowed to force their decision to "only" 31% minority. I think Janukovič
got it right here, not wanting to side with any side and trying to just keep
it as neutral as possible. It is not a good idea to decide about such a big
topic like future of the whole country and which union to join based on such a
small "majority".

In the long run, the best thing is to just do nothing right now, and try to
reach some kind of compromise in a deeply divided country that is equally
acceptable to both sides. Whatever that compromise might be, going west, or
going east, or peacefully splitting the country in two/three parts, everything
is better than inevitable escalation that this leads to.

~~~
ssalenik
The protests are not about the deal with the EU or Russia. The protests are
against the current corrupt government in general and its brutal response to
the initially peaceful protests. Having spoken to Ukrainians who have been
participating in the protests, they told me that they would not care whether
or not the EU nor the Russian deal is signed, they just want to get rid of the
current government either way.

------
yawz
Very scary similarities with what has happened in Turkey.

I have amazing respect for all those brave people risking their lives to say
"No!" to tyranny. They are the modern day heroes.

~~~
Demiurge
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuO53xeZkm8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuO53xeZkm8)

Does this look like brave people risking their lives to say "No!" to tyranny,
or like a bunch of young energetic people who have no idea about whats going
on in politics throwing molotov cocktails at police?

~~~
mathetic
I cannot account for what's happening in Ukraine but last time a video like
this one released in Istanbul during protests, it was undercover police
throwing molotov cocktails to armoured police vehicles. It was the only video
shown by all the news agencies [0].

It is quite funny that a community of skeptics being pedantic on silliest
social networking apps takes what they see in a video for granted and makes
harsh judgements about people.

EDIT after citation request:

So this is the famous video. The masks they are wearing are identified to be
standard police issue. They are also holding radio transmitters similar to
used by police but that would not prove anything.

However, this is the only instance where the police have not heavily
"interfered" to the event. The pressure they use on these guys is one tenth of
what they use against unarmed civilians. There are quite few videos showing
how they shoot people with water canon and literally threw them away. These
plus the fact that this is literally the only video shown by all news agencies
clearly indicate that the whole thing is staged.

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxuOmnQpu8E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxuOmnQpu8E)

~~~
afsina
`undercover police throwing molotov cocktails` -> citation needed.

~~~
cdash
[http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/riot-police-throw-petrol-bombs-
duri...](http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/riot-police-throw-petrol-bombs-during-
violent-protests-ukraine-1433371)

~~~
sp332
You didn't answer the question - mathetic was asking about the Istanbul
protest. (And the police in your photo aren't undercover.)

------
bitL
Why don't you guys split Ukraine into two parts? The western part (pre-WW2's
part of Poland) is pro-western, speaking Ukrainian, the eastern part is mostly
inhabited by Russians that gravitate towards Moscow. Why nobody suggests this
solution?

~~~
stargazer-3
Why don't Americans split the USA into two parts, the red one and the blue
one?

~~~
hackerboos
More than 2 parts:

[http://www.clevelandleader.com/files/splitus.JPG](http://www.clevelandleader.com/files/splitus.JPG)

~~~
gus_massa
Why “Alaska goes to Russia” instead of “Alaska goes to Canada”?

~~~
arethuza
Probably because it was drawn by a Russian?

------
desireco42
I see this attempts to drum up support for protesters in Ukraine, even here on
HackerNews and this is not the place.

Also I personally don't want to support civil way anywhere, which is what they
are trying to create. One look at Syria should be enough for normal people to
try to seek better solution.

So called protestors are no angels.

~~~
solyanyk
I'm sorry that there is not enough angelic protesters in Ukraine to conform to
your high standards. Not only that, but apparently Ukrainians don't even
qualify as "normal people", since no matter how many times we look at Syria it
doesn't become obvious that the "better solution" is to yield to the
government and abandon our constitutional rights.

------
higherpurpose
Why do some keep calling it a civil war instead of a revolution? Sure, the
government has hired/collaborated with non-government people to cause
trouble/beat up the protesters, but which tyrannical government doesn't do
that during a revolution? They all do it.

~~~
myth_drannon
Because the descendands of
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_pogroms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_pogroms)
perpetrators will want an ethnically pure Ukraine. And East/South of Ukraine
will not allow it. US state department is interested in the break up and
pushing west ukr down the throat of EU(Germany) which really is not interested
in that right now (EU is going down with PIIGS, but US needs even weaker EU
with +50mil dirt poor Ukrainians with extremely corrupt political system ).
Russia probably wants the split too, east ukr will be easier to control and
they get rid of western ultra-right/nazi/Bandera followers.

~~~
avasylev
This is ridiculous... Except of few crazy people no one wants ethnically pure
Ukraine. I grew up in western Ukraine and I have never seen single person
discriminated for being Russian. I don't know why would you post that wiki
link, WW2 situation was complex, but 100 years passed and it has nothing to do
with current situation.

~~~
pipy
That's what Ukrainian lefties write:

"One of the major forces at Euromaidan is the far-right xenophobic party
‘Svoboda’ (‘Freedom’). They are dominant among the volunteering guards of the
protest camp and are the vanguard of the most radical street actions such as
the occupation of the administrative buildings in the center of Kiev. Before
2004 ‘Svoboda’ was called Social-National Party of Ukraine and used Nazi
‘Wolfsangel’ symbol. The party leader Oleh Tiahnybok is still known for his
anti-Semitic speech. Even after its re-branding, Svoboda is establishing
cooperation with Neo-Nazi and neofascist European parties such as National
Democratic Party of Germany and Forza nuova of Italy. Its rank-and-file
militants are frequently involved in street violence and hate crimes against
migrants and political opponents". [1]

[1] [http://commons.com.ua/?p=16967](http://commons.com.ua/?p=16967)

~~~
avasylev
You should have also cited some Russian news... But there's some truth in this
- 'Svoboda' is indeed far-right party, but it definitely doesn't have trained
militants and I don't recall any "hate crimes against migrants and political
opponents". 'Svoboda' is only one of the forces, having or not having Svoboda
there doesn't change anything.

~~~
pipy
> You should have also cited some Russian news...

I do investigate my sources of information and, when discussing anything, I
always try to use sources that are legitimate to all discussing parties.

So, please, don't invent stuff. This information source is not sympathetic to
Russia. Also, it supports the Ukrainian protests. I have yet to read a single
article from Cпільне that is pro-Russia in even the slightest way.

> Having or not having Svoboda there doesn't change anything.

Back in the autumn on one of the Moscow suburban electric train stations I've
spoken to a man from Ukraine that has said that the economic situation in the
country is terrible and it is on the brink of the civil war.

I wish Ukrainians all the best in their struggle for freedom and better life,
but the main players of Ukrainian opposition might be much better off not
allying itself with Nazi sympathizers. If they won't do it, they might
alienate Eastern Ukrainians that also hate Yanukovych to the point that they
might have an armed internal conflict.

Just my 2 cents.

~~~
avasylev
I'm not familiar with the source, but abstract you cited is manipulation.
There's no trained militants, nazi, etc. Such texts are used to divide
East/West Ukraine, so current regime can survive (classic divide and conquer).

------
euphemize
I wish those underlined words were links to sources or any kind of data. I
haven't been following very closely and although I'm not putting in doubt
what's on the slides (people on here seem to be more or less corroborating the
data), there are lots of claims I'd like to read up on. Maybe a slide at the
end with more info?

~~~
LaGrange
This _is_ your data. Yeah, the quality of this data is rather poor. This is
not a time when you can count on balanced, slow research. That will be
something historians will hopefully eventually do, but meanwhile people have
act on what they have. Because there is no such thing as „inaction”.

~~~
euphemize
I'm not talking about a peer-reviewed report here - I'd appreciate just a link
to a shitty youtube video, an audio clip of an interview, raw chat log, etc. -
anything else than the claim itself. This slideshow isn't data, it's a report
of "what's really going on". As I said earlier I'm not really familiar with
the events, those numbers could have a few more trailing zeroes and I wouldn't
know the difference until I see _something_ that gives me an order of
magnitude.

------
versale
"Journalists are asked to watch closely the airports for possible Russian
police coming to Ukraine and changing into Ukrainian police."

Oh, c'mon... Why are these speculations on HN?

------
crypt1d
Frankly, this "presentation" feels like a 13-year old made it for his homework
assignment. Poor language skills, not many details and unreliable evidence. I
got to the 10th slide and gave up. This is definitely not something I would
use to form an opinion on the current situation in Ukraine.

~~~
imdsm
> Poor language skills

Or English is their second language? So Poor English language skills?

~~~
crypt1d
Yes, they are probably not native English speakers. But then again, this is a
major topic so I would expect that anyone who presents it to a broad audience
at least makes the effort to do it properly. The language used here is just
one of many things that give the impression that the person who made it has no
idea what he/she is talking about.

~~~
pinaceae
did you check the declaration of independence for errors as well? jefferson
spelt british with two TTs in there.

the US constitution? "pensylvania".

so complete bullshit then as well, right? your horse is so high you shit into
space.

------
dfkf
For God's sake, how is this piece of propaganda relevant to hacker news? This
is not reddit.

------
Phil_Latio
All of this while the EU transforms into an EUDSSR where unelected bureaucrats
decide everything (EU commission). Good luck...

~~~
vixen99
The European Elections are in May 2014 so make your voice heard.

~~~
Phil_Latio
I can not elect the european commission. If the european parliament decides
something, this may happen:

> The European Commission said Wednesday it will not suspend the safe harbor
> data privacy agreement with the U.S. despite calls from the European
> Parliament.

~~~
grey-area
Like the king and his parliament in the uk, there will one day be a reckoning
between the eu parliament and the commission. The reality today of course is
that the commission holds all the power, but that balance is shifting.

------
Aoyagi
Not another piece of news that makes the protesters seem like pure white
knights that peacefully protest... Can we have some news about Ukraine that
isn't totally biased, please?

~~~
solyanyk
You can find tons of alternative views, with little effort. But let me save
you some time and present the brief summary here: the protesters are, in fact,
not all white knights.

Moreover, it is by now rather clear that they don't all smell like roses and
talk like fairies. More than one breach of gentlemanly conduct have been
reported by independent sources, and I think it is now safe to say that each
and every of them has some kind of agenda and personal goals.

Now what? Does it mean that they have no right to protest? Or that they should
stop fighting and go home until they reach perfect enlightenment? What does
being or not being white knights have to do with the matter?

~~~
Aoyagi
Heh, thanks, but I already knew that. That's why I'm disappointed to see so
biased 'article' at the top of HN today. As for the last line: It matters
because most popular media I've seen portray them as peaceful activists that
are beaten by vicious police commandos armed with assault rifles and grenades.
And I'll resent violence no matter who it comes from, but I guess it's the
easiest way to get attention, huh? Not paying taxes could take a while to get
through. It's the bias what annoys me. What's happening there is another thing
(though there is a nice video of it
[http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=959_1390672028](http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=959_1390672028)
). If both sides weren't corrupt as hell, they'd make open transparent
referendum for the whole thing and be done with it.

Edit: The top comment right now (people being kidnapped) is a nice example.
There is no proof of that as far as I know and people already talk about it as
facts...

~~~
solyanyk
When the government controls all the power, including judicial system, refuses
to acknowledge peaceful demonstrations for months, and then swiftly passes the
law which pretty much _outlaws protest_ (including, by the way, over the
internet), how exactly are you going to arrange that "open transparent
referendum" you are talking about?

~~~
Aoyagi
I used third conditional for a reason.

------
TausAmmer
Look at it, at many angles as possible, don't be a ram.
[http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984735.html](http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984735.html)

~~~
darkbot
Exactly:
[http://zyalt.livejournal.com/985632.html](http://zyalt.livejournal.com/985632.html)

------
caiob
What do we have governments for again?

~~~
arethuza
Mostly to protect us from other governments.

------
egao1980
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_National_Assembly_%E2...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_National_Assembly_%E2%80%93_Ukrainian_National_Self_Defence)
Nazis are all over the barricades. Ukrainian riot police is more than capable
of doing European G8 style riot control but is ordered not to do so because of
the huge pressure from EU and USA. Finally, imagine Ukrainian or Russian
officials going into crowds of Occupy Wall Street or Paris protests urging to
overthrow the government and giving their support to protests.

~~~
xentronium
Everyone is over the barricades now, left, right, centrists, politically
unaffiliated.

~~~
darkbot
Not true. The barricades are guarded by the "Right Sector", who will only let
their own ranks come near it to, quote, "[not] to prevent them from
interfering with work."

------
shomyo
Stop posting this stuff. This is not reddit.

------
egao1980
Simple question - if somebody is protesting for more than 2 month where does
he/she get money from? Leaving us with 2 major groups - unemployed/homeless
and students. Unemployed people are suffering in every country, but putting
enthusiasm into looking for a job for 2.5 months would most likely solve their
problem. Students are stupid, and gullible, I know, I've been one :)

~~~
ben0x539
Are you saying unemployed, homeless and students are better equipped to do
without an income for two months of protesting than well-off people with
savings? I can see prolonged protesting making people unemployed or homeless,
though probably not into students...

------
ommunist
OK, lets also discuss Iran, Syria, Israel vs Palestine and all other bloody
conflicts here. Is this political forum or what? With regard to Ukraine, I
have a message to "protesters". Lads, instead of getting 30EUR per day of
"protest", do some real coding for the benefit of your society.

~~~
zxcdw
I challenge everyone to read your past comments and reflect this one with the
fact that you're Russian.

Now it would be a good time to stop your nationalistic dishonesty, when
politics and people as human beings are against your views.

~~~
ommunist
Dude, I am Soviet engineer. I remember times when we called each other
brothers. Kiev is mother of Russian urban culture. Do not mix politics with
code and you will be all right.

------
lhgaghl
Can't watch any of the videos linked because youtube asks me to sign in to
prove my age. And to sign up, it asks for cell phone number to send an SMS to
verify. Perhaps because I use tor. Anyone have a usable source?

If you have the viewtube greasemonkey plugin, you can download the video from
youtube and upload it somewhere else (e.g mediafire, zippyshare). Would be
good if someone does that.

~~~
slig
Replace the "/watch?=$id" with "/v/$id" in the URL and it should work.

~~~
disposablename
/embed/$id will give you HTML5

~~~
lhgaghl
that worked. thanks!

------
steven2012
I heard that there are a lot of nukes in Ukraine and the last thing the world
wants is those split off into separate hands. I would harbor a guess that the
US would rather have those nukes in the hands of Russia, who is a known evil
but rational, vs someone else entirely new.

I read on Stratfor that Russia does not want Ukraine to become independent
because it's basically the "soft underbelly" leading into Russia. It's
basically the equivalent of letting Texas become independent. With Putin in
control, there's no way he's letting Ukraine go free, especially given all the
nukes, its strategic location, etc.

~~~
Igor_TN
All nukes went from Ukraine to Russia (same in other former Soviet republics)
after the Soviet Union broke apart. It all was regulated by proper treaties.
You should not listen to rumors.

Regarding your next statement, Russia is not interfering in what is happening
in Ukraine AT ALL. As opposed to EU and US who send their emissaries to
Ukraine very often. The only "interference" from Russia is giving to Ukraine a
huge credit and pushing down the gas prices which I guess is more help than
interference. Also, this is not about Putin or anybody else. Most of Ukraine
is culturally and historically extremely close to Russia. They are pretty much
the same people. This may not be true regarding a couple of the most Western
regions of the country. Those guys, I believe, have their full right on
"independence" but that effectively would mean the split of the country which
is the hardest thing to do.

Please be careful with selectively picked information. It's not constructive
and not helpful.

~~~
dmytrish
There are multiple rumors about Russian forces disguised as Berkut, there are
some evidences about Russian snipers here, there are videos of some military
forces of non-Ukrainian origin in Southern Ukraine, etc. I don't give this
full credibility (usual rumors in time of unrest, perhaps), but still there's
no smoke without fire.

