
Children work in Congolese mines where cobalt is extracted for smartphones - guscost
http://news.sky.com/story/meet-dorsen-8-who-mines-cobalt-to-make-your-smartphone-work-10784120
======
JoeAltmaier
Much of the angst in this thread are the first-world confused sort: "Why don't
they just eat cake?" Its a hard world. You don't solve child-labor by simply
firing the children. There has to be a whole social net to catch unemployed
children, feed them and give them schooling.

I worked all my young life, in Iowa, on a farm. One of the most dangerous jobs
in America according to the actuarials. No lasting damage to me, though not
all my cohort actually survived unscathed into adulthood. Heck, half my
fathers' generation had nicknames like 'lefty' and 'stub'.

Should working children on farms in Iowa be banned? Had it happened when I was
young, half the family farms would have gone under.

Its not some academic third-world issue. You ate that food we produced. And at
the time, it wasn't going to be produced any other way.

~~~
albertgoeswoof
I really dislike the anti-"academic" viewpoint of this comment. It is a issue
that has been solved countless times before and applying academic analyses are
exactly what's needed to resolve this.

> Should working children on farms in Iowa be banned? Had it happened when I
> was young, half the family farms would have gone under.

probably yes. If you can't support a business without relying on child labour,
it's not much of a business. I'm guessing this was around 20-40 years ago,
during which time food production boomed across america and food prices
plummeted. So yes, the food would have been produced regardless, you and your
peers would have had more time to spend on education and the net personal and
economic benefits would have been positive.

If you took the children out of the mines the cobalt would still get mined.
The owners would find technology and process efficiencies to stay price
competitive, if those don't exist then the price of mobile phones should go
up.

These parents are no different to those in developed countries and would want
what's best for their children, if they had the choice - so that safety net
would get added.

~~~
aaron_m04
> If you took the children out of the mines the cobalt would still get mined.
> The owners would find technology and process efficiencies to stay price
> competitive, if those don't exist then the price of mobile phones should go
> up.

You talked about the mine owners and the price of phones, but what about the
children and their families? What would they have to do?

~~~
albertgoeswoof
Go to school.

If there's no schools then there's not enough tax being drawn from the mine,
so tax the mine (or cobalt exports). You do that until the point smartphones
become unaffordable (which we are really, really far off).

Except that's not what happens because it's not in the West's interest and
there's enough influence over dictators etc. to keep it that way.

~~~
WalterSear
Right. So it's not what happens. It's the DRC, it's mine cobalt or starve.

What's your point, unless you were actually agreeing with the parent?

~~~
albertgoeswoof
the parent is implying that this is the way it is, the way it was and the way
it always will be (and backs it up with a personal anecdote). That's not the
case though - it is possible to remove a dictator, it is possible to stop
wars, it is possible to change employment laws, it is possible to send
children to school and it is possible to change the world for the better. And
it's not a theory.

~~~
saurik
Your "let them go to school" is the equivalent of "let them eat cake": if they
could go to school they probably wouldn't be working in a mine in the first
place :/.

If you want to try to solve the problem through some random intervention you
need to take a step back and fix whatever is preventing them from going to
school, not arbitrarily taking away their jobs and then patting yourself on
the back for a problem solved.

~~~
albertgoeswoof
Taking away the job does solve the problem though, because the cobalt must
come from somewhere, so the mine will increase prices to pay for the new
labour they need. And the tax from this will pay for the schools.

The ultimate reason it doesn't happen is because people in the west don't want
to pay more for their smartphone (they are not to blame though, as they won't
see this picture, our politicians, corporations and planners are the groups
that maintain this picture deliberately).

~~~
WalterSear
You are talking about a country with child soldiers and indentured service.
Your perfect-sphere-of-a-market is even further from reality than in developed
countries.

------
sanxiyn
This is a delicate topic. "In the United States, Dodd–Frank Act required
manufacturers to audit their supply chains and report use of conflict
minerals", see
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_minerals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_minerals).
The problem here is that cobalt is not included in the list of conflict
minerals.

For one point of view, you may want to read "Why Cobalt Is Not a Conflict
Mineral": [https://agmetalminer.com/2011/06/06/why-cobalt-is-not-a-
conf...](https://agmetalminer.com/2011/06/06/why-cobalt-is-not-a-conflict-
mineral/)

~~~
owenversteeg
Agreed. A lot of things seem black and white on the surface. A lot of articles
seem to imply "think of the children, make cobalt a conflict mineral!" but
this would have some insane destabilizing effects.

The story has a lot of parallels to the story of the Harkin Bill. For those
that don't know, I've paraphrased the Wikipedia article below:

"Based on the Bangladesh Bureau of Statistics Labor Force Survey estimated
there were about 5.7 million 10- to 14-year-old children engaged in Child
labour in Bangladesh. This number may have been as high as 15 million
children."

... "In 1993 employers in Bangladesh' ready-made garment (RMG) industry
dismissed 50,000 children (c. 75 percent of child workers in the textile
industry) out of fear of economic reprisals of the imminent passage of the
Child Labor Deterrence Act"

... "The act which banned "importation to the United States of products which
are manufactured or mined in whole or in part by children" would have resulted
in the loss of lucrative American contracts. Its impact on Bangladesh's
economy would have been significant as the export-oriented ready-made garment
industry represents most of the country's exports."

... "UNICEF sent a team of investigators into Bangladesh to learn what came of
the children who were dismissed from their factory jobs. UNICEF's 1997 State
of the World's Children report confirmed that most of the children found
themselves in much more deplorable situations, such as crushing stones,
scavenging through trash dumps, and begging on the streets. Many of the girls
eventually ended up in prostitution."

I highly recommend everyone read the full Wikipedia article:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Labor_Deterrence_Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Labor_Deterrence_Act)

\- - - -

For anyone who skipped to the bottom for a TL;DR: Bangladesh had millions of
child laborers, US Senator Harkin proposed a bill that would ban importing
products made with child labor, and Bangladesh's garment industry (which was
most of the country's exports) fired 75% of the children. As a result most
children found worse work: crushing stones, scavenging trash, and
prostitution.

~~~
eecc
Ok so should we supinely accept that 1%-ers are benefactors because they're
keeping children off the street by making them work?

Sorry but: fuck that.

If a country is competitive because it's essentially engaging in slavery you
just increase pressure, up to blockade and sanctions. That is, until they
start taxing business enough to pay for proper public schooling, housing and
sanitation.

This race to the bottom bullshit has got to stop.

~~~
stuaxo
When child labour was stopped in the mills in the UK, there were similar
arguments made about how we shouldn't curb the free market.

~~~
arethuza
Here is Engel's account of working conditions for children in UK mines in the
early 19th century:

[http://www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/factmine/childmin.htm](http://www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/factmine/childmin.htm)

------
gwenzek
I don't know what makes me most sick : That a profitable business like
smartphone making rely on child labor

Or that people are using 900$ phones to explain that those children should be
happy to have a 1p/day job.

Free market surely doesn't apply to starving 7 years old. What are the
alternative they know about? Who brought them to the mine? What the difference
between that and slavery? Is slavery allowed because "they could end up as
prostitute"?

As Congo owns a big proportion of Cobalt they should be able to hire "adults"
to do the work and pay them more. Given they have any incentive to do so,
which they currently don't.

~~~
Torai
No, the main actors involved have no incentive in doing so.

[http://projectcensored.org/19-american-companies-exploit-
the...](http://projectcensored.org/19-american-companies-exploit-the-congo/)

> Historically, the U.S. government identified sources of materials in Third
> World countries, and then encouraged U.S. corporations to invest in and
> facilitate their production. Dating back to the mid-1960s, the U.S.
> government literally installed the dictatorship of Mobutu Sese Seko, which
> gave U.S. corporations access to the Congo’s minerals for more than 30
> years. However, over the years Mobutu began to limit access by Western
> corporations, and to control the distribution of resources. In 1998, U.S.
> military-trained leaders of Rwanda and Uganda invaded the mineral-rich areas
> of the Congo. The invaders installed illegal colonial-style governments
> which continue to receive millions of dollars in arms and military training
> from the United States. Our government and a $5 million Citibank loan
> maintains the rebel presence in the Congo. Their control of mineral rich
> areas allows western corporations, such as American Mineral Fields, to
> illegally mine. Rwandan and Ugandan control over this area is beneficial for
> both governments and for the corporations that continue to exploit the
> Congo’s natural wealth.

~~~
fil_a_del_fee_a
This should be the top comment. Nearly all of the problems in the world
revolve around US installed dictators, financed by US banks, lobbied by US
corporations.

~~~
albertgoeswoof
it might be true, but it's just not pragmatic to just say "America did it"

The US dictators, banks, corporations and citizens are ruling, financing,
lobbying and voting for this regardless. To solve the problem each of these
need their incentives aligned (e.g. give dicators a better deal for not
allowing this, limit profitability of cobalt mining to the banks, force
coprorations to declare "cruelty free", write articles like this one to
influence citizens to vote for favourable policies).

------
gridit
The work of a scholar I follow has covers this topic a little. Chris Blattman
recently co-wrote an op-ed [0] about his data covering sweatshops in Ethiopia.
They found that it wasn't always so clear that these dangerous industrial jobs
lifted people out of poverty.

In a really neat trial, they went to factory owners and randomized the
acceptance for job applicants, tracking the outcomes of people who found
employment elsewhere. Chris originally made his name studying the lives of
former child soldiers in Uganda. Recommend his mostly-professional twitter
feed [1]

[0] [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/27/opinion/do-sweatshops-
lif...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/27/opinion/do-sweatshops-lift-workers-
out-of-poverty.html?_r=1) [1]
[https://twitter.com/cblatts](https://twitter.com/cblatts)

------
Vinnl
If anyone's interested, there's a brand of phones that's actively trying to
change this: [https://www.fairphone.com/en/](https://www.fairphone.com/en/)

Contrary to other brands, they can actually try to fix it because they can
also admit that this is an issue with their first two phones: because they're
an awareness campaign as well, because they're documenting what issues they
encounter and why it's so difficult, and because they want to be the
trailblazer that figures out how to improve this situation, so other brands
can copy their model.

------
ilaksh
Look up the admitted history of US intervention in the Congo and nearby
countries. We created a messed up economic and political situation
deliberately with military/intelligence tactics so that mining companies could
more profitably exploit those countries. If we had not used strong arm tactics
then they would be charging much more for the minerals and would have a good
chance of creating a healthy economy.

------
stickfigure
I don't like it when people try to emotionally manipulate me.

 _Dorsen is threatened with a beating as he works in heavy rain_

It's almost a cliche. There may be a horrible injustice going on here, and if
so it really deserves better reporting. Give me some numbers, some sense of
scale. Is this a widespread problem?

~~~
andrepd
There are numbers to satisfy you, but some people connect more with concrete
stories. That's how they get a sense of the problem, by hearing stories from
real people, rather than numbers.

People are different in what makes them care.

~~~
lmm
I wish there was more numerate reporting out there though. I'm all for there
being news sources for people who prefer the individual-human perspective
(though some abuse this by picking unrepresentative anecdotes to spread
dangerous misconceptions), but I'd like there to be some that served the more
statistically-conscious market.

~~~
andrepd
Oh yes absolutely.

------
toomanybeersies
The sad thing about these situations is that for the people working for
pennies a day, it's better than nothing.

~~~
camus2
> The sad thing about these situations is that for the people working for
> pennies a day, it's better than nothing.

You're assuming they are paid to begin with, there is plenty of child-slavery
in Africa. Some of these kids are sold by relatives. They aren't paid at all
since the relative has already been paid.

~~~
randyrand
Even in america child labor was typically unpaid. Your parents made you work
in the fields and in return they fed you and raised you. I would imagine these
scenarios are similar.

------
kobeya
I'm glad they have a job. Their families probably need it very much. I hope
that their hard work allows the next generation of Congolese to live in
greater prosperity.

~~~
grecy
I have seen the impact of mines like this first hand in many third world
countries. It is not what you think.

The people work horrendous hours for a tiny amount of money - maybe 50 cents
per day. At the end of the day they need to pay for food (no time to grow it)
and pay for people to do things like make their shelter, clothes and transport
(no time to do it for themselves). And so they have zero money left. They also
work in horrible conditions and have a life expectancy of ~40.

In many countries (Cameroon, Bolivia, Ivory Coast, Senegal, etc. etc.) I have
seen where this crosses a line, and the locals simply choose not to work and
just go back to growing their own food etc. Often they are happier and better
off.

Yes, this forces the wages to go up a tiny fraction, but in reality it is
almost nothing, because there are always more naive country-folk coming in who
think (as you do) "having a job is great" and they will "provide for their
families" etc. By the time they figure out the whole thing is a terrible scam
and quit, they already live in a slum in the city and can't go back. They are
trapped. They probably even owe the mine some money or live in housing
provided by the mine, so they are literally owned.

Your idealized view of Capitalism is plain wrong. It does not happen like that
in countries that do not have strict labor laws. (and even then, I would argue
that many in the USA are working-slaves)

Read Grapes of Wrath if you have not, it does a fantastic job of illustrating
how people become trapped in extremely low-paying jobs with little to no
choice.

~~~
kobeya
You are wrong to think I'm not aware of the grisly circumstances under which
many work, or that I've never been in despicable situations myself, or that
I'm not familiar with the literary works of the communist-leaning John
Steinbeck. I stand by my original statement.

~~~
grecy
You are completely aware that working for pennies a day is pointless, shortens
their lives, and many people would be better off not doing it.

However, you stand by your original statement that you are glad they have a
job.

Color me confused.

~~~
kobeya
You don't get to compare reality against some imagined utopia where these mine
jobs don't exist and everyone is fed and happy children are attending air
conditioned schools with loving parents at home. You only get to compare
against what would actually happen: the boys would become child soldiers
because it beats hunger, and the girls will turn to prostitution. Now it is
your turn to tell me this is a better outcome.

~~~
grecy
> _Now it is your turn to tell me this is a better outcome_

I can tell you what I have seen, not anything at all imagined.

I have seen hundreds of people quit their jobs in third world mines and other
"western owned slave labor". So I can tell you first hand exactly the outcome
that happens.

I have seen those people go back to growing their own food, making and washing
their own clothes, building their own houses etc. They go back to being
members of their communities. They have massively more food and water than
they need, and quickly have a lot of social time. Now they have time to spend
with their family and friends. They don't have much money, so often they won't
own a car, but they have plenty of food and water and shelter and family time.

Their basic needs are met, and they have a good life.

Actually, it virtually all of the 15 countries I have been to in West Africa I
have met hundreds and hundreds (and seen thousands) of people that have
massively more leisure time than anyone I know in the Western World, and on
the whole I would say people are happier. Certainly they have no stress, no
timelines and don't answer to any boss. They have no alarms, and don't care
what time it is on any given day (or what day it is).

This is not hollywood. This is not the world CNN tells you it is. Child
soldiers and prostitution are not the only option, and in my experience in
over 30 undeveloped countries, they are extremely rare.

~~~
Elrac
What you write sounds good, and you seem to have the experience to back
yourself up, but the overall picture doesn't make sense:

You say that people who stop doing this back-breaking, underpaid work end up
better off. If that's the case, why are people still staying on the shitty
job? Why aren't they making what looks like a no-brainer decision from our
viewpoint?

~~~
grecy
As I said in the original comment, there are many possible reasons. They have
already moved from their farm to live in a slum in the city, and can't go
back. They probably owe some money for that move, maybe even they owe money to
the mine. They maybe even live in mine-supplied housing.

Of course, the lure of "lots of money" is a strong one, and they will work for
years and years thinking one day they will have the lucky break that will make
the difference and pull them out of poverty. (side note: sound familiar? Look
around you)

Like I said, read grapes of wrath to see an excellent account of how people
head towards this "working dream" only to become disgustingly trapped working
as slave labor, continually going backwards even though they work harder and
harder. When they are unable they are kicked out to die and replaced.

And finally, many people do quit and attempt to get away from it all, but
there is an endless stream of naive newcomers to continually staff the mine.
(again, see this clearly shown in grapes of wrath)

~~~
Elrac
Now you've made me wish I'd read Grapes of Wrath!

Thanks for the explanation. Those may not be good reasons, but they're
understandable reasons that help solve the puzzle for me.

~~~
grecy
I am curious, how do you distinguish between "good reasons" and the reasons
that are causing this to happen ?

------
snambi
Imagine the same thing happened in somewhere in USA or Europe. Will anyone
argue against shutting down these cell phone companies?

~~~
mc32
No, because people in industrialized nations have alternatives --either job-
wise or welfare subsidies. People in third world countries don't have good
alternatives --they are where we were 80-100 years ago, maybe more.

~~~
forkLding
Third world is also no longer used in Social Sciences and Academic circles as
a classification as Third World originally meant the countries that did not
either support USA or the Soviet Union during the Cold War, I think the latest
term is developing states.

That aside, why not ensure better regulations and ways on the mines, if cobalt
is only readily available in large amounts in the Congo and phones being one
of the more profitable products, you are only exploiting the local peoples.

I understand it would have a huge impact on supply chains and manufacturing
but the alternative is losing lives, I remember this same debate from years
ago about people losing lives for phones in Congolese mines and am somewhat
amazed that its literally the same issues.

~~~
mc32
Right, I meant underdeveloped nations. But third world is understood as long
hand for the same --but now without the hegemonic context. (calling them one
way or the other does not magically improve their lot or make it worse)

Cobalt is available in other countries (US, Mexico, among others) but starting
up a mine is not cheap and takes years --I think Idaho has/had one?. We could
mine more and then those people would lose the little they have.

As someone else said, their best bet as a society is to follow in China's
footsteps to ramp up quickly --though note they have paid a pretty heavy price
(pollution). Still, on the whole, I don't think it can be argued sincerely
that they have not come out way ahead.

------
microcolonel
As long as they're paid wages which are attractive to them, I don't see
exactly what's wrong. Every modern society in the world has worked through
child labour to the point that they can obsolete it. The prohibitions against
it in the west came after most people didn't work as children anyway.

~~~
onion2k
_As long as they 're paid wages which are attractive to them, I don't see
exactly what's wrong._

When the alternative is starving to death a _very_ low wage that essentially
only gives you enough to not die becomes quite attractive. That doesn't mean
it's fair, reasonable or right.

~~~
mirko22
> When the alternative is starving to death

This. If this is the alternative how is the solution stop buying cobalt from
them? So basically, cos we want to feel morally superior these people will
have to alternatively starve to death cos there is not much else going on in
that part of the world to make money on... ? :/

While I am sadden by stories like this, unfortunately I think the solution
requires complete overhaul of the environment they are in not just running the
mine out of business. They need _another_ alternative. But this cannot be
changed by the outsiders :(

And there are similar stories, if not worse, with tobacco industry in Africa,
but I assume it is not as attractive to journalists as "mining" is seen more
like a slave job. (Kids basically pick and sort tobacco leaves with no
protection which makes them absorb dangerous amounts of nicotine)

But the solution is not to stop smoking but to give them alternative. The only
reason we don't have child labor in western countries is that we have
alternative means of getting food for which we, thank god, don't need to
utilize children.

(One good alternative I've seen is tea plantations, partially cos tea doesn't
have harmful chemical for people so they need to invest less in protective
gear for example)

------
bronz
cobalt is being phased out of lithium batteries, at least at tesla.

------
jlebrech
what if someone built a coding farm instead of mines, people would still
complain because it's taking advantage of them but isn't progress the best way
to elevate them?

------
rcdwealth
That is sensationalism out of the context of living conditions of those
children.

First of all, just all children in Africa are "working" in the sense that they
are fetching water every day from wells and water sources, often on their
heads, as much as they can carry, but not too much. Without water, no child
can wash their bodies, and no food can be cooked. Children work in any area of
life helping adults to push vegetables, sort things, and anything where a
child can be helpful.

They are not spoiled and learn that way how to contribute to family. There is
nothing wrong with it. It is not "work", and children are not "paid" moneys,
they are simply helping their parents.

There is really nothing wrong with helping.

The environment in such mining areas is such that families usually have no
work at all. Suddenly somebody is opening a mine, and it becomes matter of
speed to collect whatever is representing a resource, to exchange such
resource for better life.

Sometimes work is so easy such as separating various stones from other stones.

When parents know that there are some dangerous chemicals, they would not
involve their children. Congolese people are not that dumb how story wants to
show it.

Children are helping in such activities that are appropriate for them. Nobody
is forcing them, and there are schools, those who need to go to school,
usually go.

Everywhere in Europe, before European development, before some 100 years,
children were helping parents in the same way.

Now with that nice life, and all development that happened in the meantime, it
is easy to point out fingers "look you are employing children", but that is
not quite correct description. Problem is larger than "children labor", and I
do not see it as "labor", I see that as children helping parents. I have never
seen a forceful parent or "employee" who is forcing children to work.

Sensationalism makes it appear so.

To understand really situation, one need to come on place, and not just sit
behind a modern computer, watching pictures from Congo.

In the end, what you want? That they do not get any food, money, cloth,
resources required for living?

~~~
vacri
Interesting, the variations in explaining this stuff away. Here are you saying
"this labour is just part of being a family in Africa", and upthread there's
someone saying "if children didn't have these jobs, they'd be forced into
prostitution".

> _When parents know that there are some dangerous chemicals, they would not
> involve their children._

I've seen first-hand, here in a first-world country, people with engineering
degrees working in manufacturing with dangerous chemicals refuse to bother
putting on safety gear.

Hell, the whole OH&S industry has trouble getting employees to act safely, not
just employers.

