
Cory Doctorow: Firefox has my business, no matter how shiny the Chrome is - soundsop
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/09/google.googlethemedia
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litewulf
I find it curious that he is so hostile to Google when he appears to use their
services so much.

I think there is a severe disconnect with the rah rah privacy Google is bad
and the "oh but I really like their apps". Hopefully the cognitive dissonance
doesn't make that poor man's head explode.

Also, all of these "Google won't let Chrome do X" arguments really weird me
out. You have the source. Do what you want with it. Seriously, the concept of
permission is really fuzzy when talking about adding features to open source
projects.

~~~
ars
The world isn't black and white. It's perfectly logical not to like something,
but to use it anyway.

~~~
litewulf
Uhh. I think its intellectually dishonest.

He wants Google to not play in China because he thinks its morally wrong. Yet,
he uses Google even though he views their policies as morally wrong.

Do you see what I mean?

~~~
electromagnetic
I think what ars meant was that you can dislike something, a la Microsoft, yet
still use their product. I dislike Microsoft, but there is no alternative for
me. I have no interest in Linux as it just bores the crap out of me, it's not
even an alternative as there's just too many hoops to jump through to get it
working and then I'll still have XP on my computer so there's no reason to
switch.

I would switch to Apple as an alternative, but as you have to have an apple
computer to run OS X I don't even consider it. I'm not going to throw out over
$1000 on a macbook, and god forbid I want extra ram installed at apple they'll
take another $600 for sticking two little chips in two little slots. The guy
who does it must be making $550 an hour cause I can install two ram chips for
little over $50 tops! (that includes buying them, I know this because I did it
just last weekend for someone, $38.99 for 2x1gb)

So even though I detest microsoft, I hate them less than the rest.

~~~
elai
Whats wrong with putting in the extra ram yourself, it's really easy to do.
The manual even comes with instructions (with pictures!), on how to do it.

~~~
ars
Read again what he wrote. He can do it himself, he was just complaining that
apple charges so much for such a simple task.

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Zak
_It's no secret that the_ _nonprofit_ _, free, open Firefox browser depends
largely on Google's financial largesse and technical contributions_

Firefox isn't entirely non-profit. The for-profit Mozilla Corporation exists
as a subsidiary of the nonprofit Mozilla Foundation and makes a substantial
profit. Said profits are reinvisted in the company, but that's not so
different from Google. What is different is that there are no options or
shareholders.

~~~
menloparkbum
More than 80% of Mozilla's revenue comes directly from Google.

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yummyfajitas
Does anyone know which plugins he is describing? In particular, I'm interested
in his better book search plugin.

~~~
silentbicycle
I'm not sure it fits what he's talking about, but I've found book burro
(<http://www.bookburro.org/>) quite helpful. It collects results from several
used book price searchers, rather than searching inside book content, but it
can also search for library availability in a $distance radius, which is
_nice_.

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tlrobinson
It was reasonable until I got to this bit...

 _"Changes the Google logo to a "Gulag" logo showing Google's place as part of
the Great Firewall of China, providing a constant reminder to me that for all
that I trust Google with lots of key data, I must never forget that it has
demonstrated a historical corporate willingness to participate in censorship
and surveillance efforts when its profits were on the line"_

~~~
gdee
Care to explain what's _unreasonable_ with that?

~~~
bmj
I'm not sure I'd label it "unreasonable," but if you feel so strongly about
Google's business practices, shouldn't you boycott their services completely?
By using their services, aren't you tacitly assenting to their business
practices?

~~~
mechanical_fish
_By using their services, aren't you tacitly assenting to their business
practices?_

Certainly not! I do business with plenty of people that I disagree with. So do
you, no doubt.

This is a classic (i.e. "really old") line of argument against political
activists. To testify to that, I give you MIT's most (in?)famous political
activist, Noam Chomsky:

 _As to how I tolerate MIT, that raises another question. There are people who
argue, and I have never understood the logic of this, that a radical ought to
distance himself from oppressive institutions. The logic of that argument is
that Karl Marx shouldn't have studied in the British Museum which, if
anything, was the symbol of the most vicious imperialism in the world... But I
think Karl Marx was quite right in studying in the British Museum. He was
right in using the resources and in fact the liberal values of the
civilization that he was trying to overcome, against it._

Remember, the goal of an activist is not to throw the baby out with the
bathwater. The goal is to _convince_ the baby to join the activist's side.
Which you accomplish by living inside the baby's culture, appealing to its
better nature, and using all the tools at your disposal, including the baby's
tools.

It's not as if the whole idea of Google is fundamentally evil. It's a few
specific aspects of Google's business practices that Cory dislikes -- aspects
which, he might well argue, could easily be reformed without significantly
affecting Google's prosperity.

~~~
david
Maybe I don't understand the whole Google+China issue, but if you can do
business with people you disagree with, can't Google do business with China?

~~~
olavk
I think his issue is not with doing business with China, but rather with the
censorship Google has implemented in the Chinese version of the search.

One thing is to do business with an entity you disagree with, another thing is
to act unethetical (or "evil") yourself in order to do business.

~~~
orib
What's the difference between financially supporting someone who would do
evil, and doing it yourself?

Is hiring a hitman wrong? Is shopping at a known hitman's store, knowing that
the profits he makes will be invested into killing wrong?

It's an extreme example, but if you feel that something a company is doing is
wrong, financially supporting them is also wrong.

If you say _"I'm supporting an entity that does wrong, but the benefit it
brings me is greater than the guilt I feel from using them"_ is one thing.
saying _"I support them financially, but I disagree with them, therefore I'm
not supporting immoral behavior, and am still moral"_ is just stupid and
hypocritical.

~~~
derefr
This is what I call "the Vegetarian's dilemma." Basically, you can't be a
vegetarian (for moral reasons) and a capitalist, in the modern, western world,
at the same time.

Say you shop at a store that sells meat. Your money helps them buy that meat,
even if they make no money _on_ the meat, as they can use it as a loss leader:
they have your funding to fall back on. So you stop shopping there.

But, hold on, the employees _at_ that shop get payed by the other customers
there, right? Customers like, say, the baker and the landscaper that you use.
So now you can't pay _them_ either, as they'll go out and pay the shop, and
then the shop will go out and buy meat.

Take it as far as it can go, and it's clear that you can't participate in a
capitalist society that also contains immoral business transactions without
rendering yourself immoral.

~~~
orib
Yes, precisely. This is the point at which you say _"I may be indirectly
supporting the slaughter of animals financially, but I need to eat. The
benefits outweigh the costs, and I'm reducing the demand for meat. I hope that
will make a difference. Maybe eventually demand will drop to the point that
stores stop carrying meat if enough people follow my lead."_

No, you can never support only entirely moral entities, but you can still make
a difference. It's not an either-or proposition.

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Zak
I don't think Google really cares about the tiny percentage of people who use
tools that reduce Google's ability to collect data or display ads. If Firefox
started bundling the extensions referenced in the article by default, Google
might get worried, but their business is about volume, not a few Firefox power
users.

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Herring
Someone's going to mention forking & rebranding. It's hard, much harder than
when you have official support. Google's version has a link on the front page.

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amoeba
Who cares what Cory Doctorow thinks about web browsers?

~~~
jrockway
Who cares?

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microcentury
Oh for God's sake... I admire Doctorow deeply for his writing and work ethic,
but he's really venturing into tinfoil hat territory here.

~~~
JabavuAdams
How is that? He's identified that Google's corporate interests are not aligned
with your personal interests, if you value privacy and control of your
information highly.

You may not share these concerns, but his argument is by no means irrational.

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sgibat
All of these arguments are getting really old. Google said they'd provide an
API. I bet you'll be able to do all of these things without even having to
fork it.

