
The Netherlands is making moves to ban all non-electric vehicle sales by 2025 - imartin2k
http://www.sciencealert.com/the-netherlands-is-making-moves-to-ban-all-non-electric-vehicles-by-2025
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strommen
It's noteworthy that 90% of energy used in the Netherlands is fossil fuels[1]
(as of 2013, anyway). This means electric cars will emit GHGs comparable to a
40-50mpg gasoline-powered car. Hopefully they do some major work to clean up
their grid electricity.

Electric cars are a necessary step to reducing GHG emissions, but without a
clean grid they are pretty pointless.

[1]
[https://www.iea.org/Textbase/npsum/netherlands2014SUM.pdf](https://www.iea.org/Textbase/npsum/netherlands2014SUM.pdf)

~~~
Osiris30
The Dutch cabinet has already decided to close 8 coal plants - there will only
be 3 remaining [1]. Having said that - the power supply gap will now be fed
from imports - and critics are claiming that those imports are more carbon
intensive. A report has been commissioned...

[1] [http://www.nltimes.nl/2016/04/11/dutch-cabinet-to-close-
two-...](http://www.nltimes.nl/2016/04/11/dutch-cabinet-to-close-two-more-
coal-plants/)

~~~
awinter-py
German utilities have been complaining for years that excess german solar
capacity is forcing them to run their dynamos below capacity, i.e.
inefficiently. If the german plants gain that efficiency back by supplying
dutch demand, sounds okay to me.

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mantas
> Electric vehicles – including self-driving cars – are clearly the future

Partially off-topic, but it feels very weird when people put electric and
self-driving cars into the same basket. Those are 2 different problems.
There're electric cars which are not self driving. There're cars aiming to be
self-driving, that are not electric.

~~~
infogulch
Electric vehicles are many many times simpler than their gas-powered cousins.
This simplicity is passed onto the self-driving computer as fewer variables.

Also, the primary downsides to electric vehicles -- longer refuel times,
reduced range -- are mostly irrelevant when a computer is doing it by itself.
Nobody cares if their self-driving taxi spends 10 minutes recharging itself
between every pickup.

~~~
arijun
> Electric vehicles are many times simpler than their gas-powered cousins

What does engine complexity have to do with driving complexity? I imagine that
a computer would drive a car using interfaces analogous to those we use;
namely gas, brake, steer (and I guess a shifter to put it in drive).

~~~
rlidwka
Potentially, higher acceleration/deceleration would allow a computer to use
simpler collision prevention algorithms. Also, there is no shifter there.

~~~
djschnei
improved acceleration/deceleration aren't givens for electric vehicles. You
shouldn't let the Teslas cloud your perception here - usually they are slower
than their internal combustion peers. Also, no reason for a self driving
algorithm to worry about shifting. In an automatic car do you worry about
shifting?

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johnm1019
In this case I think the approach taken by the US is better -- set aggressive
fuel economy standards and let the market either

a.) figure out new technologies for much better fuel economy

b.) figure out electric vehicles are cheaper

My point here specifically is not that the numbers the US chose are correct
(let that be for another debate), but that this method of effectively
restricting/"banning" gasoline cars is better for everyone.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy#Agreed_standards_by_model_year.2C_2011-2025)

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frederikvs
c.) lie and cheat their way around the standards

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syncsynchalt
To be fair they've been caught and are facing enormous punitive fines.

~~~
dogma1138
To be fair the entire industry is cheating and will continue to cheat.

People want cheap and fast cars which directly conflicts with the regulations.

When all things are equal people will buy the faster car and the car that dose
0 to 60 quicker. And many people even prefer those stats when choosing a
family car often over safety and pretty much all the time when it comes to how
green the car is unless there is a harsh progressive tax based on car
emissions.

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superuser2
Will they compel landlords to install chargers in all parking spots? What
about street parking? Or are people who don't own garages simply screwed, as
in the US?

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mcv
I'm not sure about other cities, but if you own an electric car in Amsterdam,
you're guaranteed to get a charging spot near your home. As long as nobody in
your neighbourhood has a visitor with an electric car, this means a guaranteed
parking spot, which is an enormously valuable perk in this city.

~~~
superuser2
Interesting! So every time someone buys an electric car, the government builds
a new charging spot? That sounds like a great way to incentivize EVs, even
more than a straight cash refund like in the US.

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oever
It's not as radical as the headline suggests.

> There are moves within the country to ban all petrol and diesel vehicle
> _sales_ by 2025.

~~~
infogulch
So people will just travel an extra 15 minutes to the next country to buy
their dinosaur-powered vehicles instead.

This won't do anything but push sales tax money out of the country unless they
also do something like ban new vehicle _registrations_ as well as sales.

~~~
Ao7bei3s
Or unless the neighboring countries follow suit.

~~~
touristtam
Belgium maybe, but France and German have very strong industry relying on the
production of petrol cars, so you'd expect them to offer strong resistance
until they field more electric model than petrol ones. It is the same industry
that victoriously lobbied against the liberalisation of the personal vehicle
market.

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1wd
Austria by 2020.

[http://autorevue.at/autowelt/oesterreich-2020-diesel-
bezinau...](http://autorevue.at/autowelt/oesterreich-2020-diesel-bezinautos)

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jorisvansoest
"There is no ban on the sale of 'fossil' cars such as the Labour Party
originally wanted, but the Netherlands must "seek the mere selling of
emission-free (new) cars in 2025""

source: [http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/03/29/tweede-kamer-neemt-
omstr...](http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/03/29/tweede-kamer-neemt-omstreden-
motie-over-elektrische-autos-aan)

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teekert
It's about sales and it's very far from an implementation. One major issue is
the EU, I heard on the radio (BNR) that it is not even legally possible for
the Netherlands to banish sales of goods that are not banished in other parts
of the EU. It's a nice discussion-starter though.

~~~
theandrewbailey
(Not EU resident here) How hard is it to cross an internal EU border, buy a
car, and take it back home?

~~~
sgift
Not hard, but usually not worth it as far as I remember: You have to pay the
VAT of your home country when you import it, which is often one of the biggest
difference between car prices within the EU.

~~~
gambiting
The difference is negligible. When you buy a car coming from another EU
country, you pay the price without VAT(the dealership has to give you an ex-
vat invoice). Then when you register it, you pay the VAT of the country where
you register the vehicle. Most countries in EU have VAT between 20 to 23%, so
in the worst case, you are paying 3% more, in the best case, you are saving
3%.

~~~
jan_g
It's not just VAT, many countries have additional taxes on cars. Extreme
example: Denmark, where the tax on a car purchase is something like 180%. So
basically, you have to import the car if you buy it in another country, which
may mean quite a big cheque to your country's tax office. In the end, the
system of taxes and various other obstacles is such that it's mostly not worth
the trouble to buy a car in another country and import it home.

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mywittyname
So what are people to do when there's no suitable electric vehicle that fills
their need? I'm thinking mostly about businesses that need trucks and vans for
shipping and distribution. It's going to be a long time before we have all
electric Ranger & Transit lineup.

The Dutch market is far too small for any large company to justify moving
towards this. So, unless the rest of Europe moves in lockstep with them, this
measure will fail or will necessitate exemptions in order to keep business
going.

Either that, or they go back to horses and mules.

~~~
cname
The language in the article is ambiguous. There are a places where it uses
"vehicle" and other places where it uses "car". The latter seems to indicate
this is aimed at non-commercial passenger vehicles.

The article also says petrol fueled vehicles won't be forced off the road on 1
Jan 2025, so there may be a longer transition period for businesses that can
maintain their fleets.

In any case, there are usually exceptions for commercial vehicles. Maybe
they'll allow (some) commercial vehicles to be hybrids, or maybe they'll allow
exemptions where it makes sense.

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wehadfun
Is every part of the electric "sustainable" cars renewable? Is lithium or
whatever they make these batteries out of "green"? Are we trading gas for some
other limited resource?

~~~
mcv
A pretty major part is of course how the electricity is being generated. If
it's coming from coal plants, electric is not going to be a big improvement
(though still a slight one, because as dirty as coal plants are, they're still
more efficient that your own personal internal combustion engine). But if it's
part of a move towards all wind, solar and other clean energy production, then
that's going to have a huge impact.

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aries1980
Meanwhile London has the bold plan to make mandatory the Euro6 in the Ultra
Low Emission Zones by 2020 - when those engines will be 10yrs old.

[https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-
zone](https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone)

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Qantourisc
I wonder if they thought about the extra stress on the electricity grid... it
might need some mayor re hauling to satisfy the need to load all those cars.

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awinter-py
don't sweat it, the great state of new jersey is hard at work on the opposite

