

Jeff Atwood Goes Off The Rails - ashleyblackmore
http://reedmangino.tumblr.com/post/41195787574/jeff-atwood-goes-off-the-rails

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sethist
The irony in this article is pretty thick. In his original article, Jeff not
so subtly admitted that he considered suicide and therefore likely battled
depression as well. Yet Reed says Jeff has "a reckless lack of knowledge about
how depression really works". Why does Reed label Jeff as ignorant in both his
knowledge of depression and Aaron's situation when Reed himself doesn't know
Jeff's?

Jeff was simply drawing an analogy to suicide that most of his readers would
understand. A small percentage of us have experienced depression while almost
all of us have played games. Yes, the annoyance of being quick scoped in Call
of Duty can't be compared to the pain of depression, but it doesn't have to be
for the analogy to still be helpful. Honestly, I don't think it benefits
anyone to be offended by imperfect analogies.

~~~
mnicole
> Yet Reed says Jeff has "a reckless lack of knowledge about how depression
> really works". Why does Reed label Jeff as ignorant in both his knowledge of
> depression and Aaron's situation when Reed himself doesn't know Jeff's?

Not implying this is the situation here in the least, but I have met multiple
people who - despite acknowledging that they, themselves, were at one point
depressed and suicidal - still claim that suicide is a choice and a coward's
way out and have no interest in helping those who are too weak to do so
themselves. Again, this is not to belittle Jeff's own turmoil, but rather to
illustrate that the severity of one's struggle is vastly different than
another's, even when they have both had similar solutions to their problems at
some point.

I thought the title of "ragequit" was inappropriate, as that's an insensitive
joke regarding a very sad and serious act and in no way reflects on all of the
aspects of what that person is/was going through.

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nemo1618
Whether or not you want to admit it, I think Jeff said what a lot of us were
thinking. Suicide is a unique form of death because it elicits not just
sadness, but _frustration_. Personally, I'm glad he gave those feelings a
voice. (And personally, I believe that it's a bad sign if your argument mostly
hinges on "I'm offended!")

~~~
thebooktocome
The OP's argument doesn't hinge on "I'm offended." They give several reasons
why Atwood argues from ignorance. Comparing suicide with ragequitting is a
horrifically callous thing to do.

Many other people have managed to express Atwood's point before his mostly
superfluous post (e.g., Lessig) in a much more appropriate manner.

~~~
gojomo
'Horrifically callous' to whom?

Those who are dead don't mind. (One of the things forfeited in death is the
right to be offended.)

Atwood's interpretation and, essentially, anger and disappointment is one of
the ways that survivors try to come to terms with suicide.

That it might not be a clinically correct interpretation, in any one
particular case or even most cases, may not matter. Does it help Atwood? Might
this framing help others get on with their lives?

If you think this 'ragequit' analogy will harm the living at risk of suicide,
do you have evidence for that view? I think its effect could go either way:
such judgmentalism is unlikely to reach the severely suicidally depressed, but
might interfere a little with some mild/early suicidal ideations.

I'd like to summarize by saying that criticizing someone else's way of
grieving as 'inappropriate' is itself inappropriate. I'd like to say that, but
I can't, because that'd be more than a little self-negating. Whipping out our
various still-vital impulses for indignation and criticism is another way that
we, the living, poke each other forward.

~~~
michaelgrafl
Callousness doesn't need a target.

It's callous because it displays a severe lack of empathy and understanding.
As someone who has suffered from serious depression and suicidal thought (to
the point where I physically harmed myself) I can say that I was disgusted by
the notion of suicide being a deliberate, egotistical choice. I'm disappointed
in Atwood, and I can't help but think less of him now.

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mieses
"depression is a disease"

Cure the depressives and you kill a great deal of literature, art, music, and
other poetic forms of expression. Even as we approach a world dominated by
engineering and social sciences, people will still find a way to be sad, to
the benefit of all.

~~~
hilko
In the same way great writers need to be alcoholics?

In all seriousness though: depression is quite different from feeling down or
being sad, and one of the most frustrating things for people who have been
depressed is that they can't really convey what it's like. I've been 'happy',
in a way, that depression has been talked about more lately, because I feel
that especially us geeks often have a hard time accepting something we cannot
understand or figure out.

In some ways, you could compare depression to addictions. For people who have
no addictions, and/or people who just do not have an addictive personality, it
is _really_ hard to understand. Even if they try to understand, it often feels
like an addicted person is just not trying hard enough.

This is especially difficult with addictions that are similar to non-addictive
behavior, like consumption of alcohol. Non-alcoholics _just don't get it_. I
don't blame them for this, but it's frustrating.

Depression, in a way, is addiction to sadness.

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tnuc
If you take the time to read some of Jeff Atwood's older posts, you will
notice more than a few of his posts about people are unsympathetic.

He is good at communicating tech issues but crap at describing people issues.

~~~
hilko
Yeah. I'm much less angry about this than might be, mostly because of this
same impression I get from him.

I find that 'geeks' have a tendency to really not handle issues well when they
are difficult to understand. Suicide is like that. Most people hesitate to say
anything about it, but 'geeks' can be lacking in that.

And honestly, I like that. He's saying what a lot of people are thinking, and
it starts a good discussion.

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genwin
I wouldn't assume that Swartz killed himself because he was depressed per se.
He was facing ruination, after all, the likes of which even a strong
hardworking person might never recover from. Made worse by the fact that it
was a victimless crime. I take the view that a corrupt prosecutor hounded him
to his death, and ignore any depression he had.

If you haven't already signed the petition:
[https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-united-
stat...](https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-united-states-
district-attorney-carmen-ortiz-office-overreach-case-aaron-swartz/RQNrG1Ck)

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LandoCalrissian
I thought this was going to be about Ruby on Rails...

~~~
yareally
That reminds me...I get all excited when I hear someone mention Django on a
more mainstream site and then mildly disappointed when I realize they only
meant the movie. I've probably been programming too much when that's the first
thing that comes to mind.

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rmangino
I'd like to thank everyone for your thoughtful replies. There is no
black/white or cut/dry arguments here. Most of us, including myself, did not
know Aaron; it was not my intention to insinuate otherwise (unlike Jeff who
_did_ say, "I never knew Aaron, but I _knew_ Aaron") - emphasis by Jeff. Yes,
I'm sure Jeff _knew_ Aaron well enough to write his article.

We will never know what pushed Aaron over the edge. His legal issues couldn't
have helped matters. That said, my entire point was that relating suicide to
ragequitting is an ignorant thing to do and that sentiment belies a
practically infinite misunderstanding of why some people with mental illness
decide to end their lives.

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lizzyracecar
Offensiveness aside, the analogy Atwood makes is just nonsensical.
Ragequitting is storming out in a temper-tantrum, maybe analgous to a school
shooting. In this instance, there is no "rage" in evidence. Swarz didn't gave
no indication that he meant his suicide to be symbolic or carry a message (as
ragequitters do, the message generally being "fuck you all, I'm out of here.")
Atwood's whole thesis is flawed.

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rmangino
Here are some very well written thoughts on suicide by a very talented
software engineer (and a depression sufferer):

[http://blog.valerieaurora.org/2013/01/12/suicide-and-
society...](http://blog.valerieaurora.org/2013/01/12/suicide-and-society-
where-does-responsibility-for-preventing-suicide-lie/)

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6ren
> unbearable pain

There's a concept of a transcendent mission or quest, that is worth any
effort, any suffering, any pain. It's unreasonable to _expect_ this of anyone
- it's just that it's an approach that some have used to transcend suffering.

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spoiledtechie
Well Said.

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papaver
oh please. aaron knew what he was getting into when he broke the law. in the
end suicide is the easy way out. depression or not. i don't claim to know what
aaron was going threw, but i do know he knew a huge community of people were
ready to fight for him, yet he choose the easy way out.

~~~
valdiorn
"aaron knew what he was getting into when he broke the law. in the end suicide
is the easy way out"

Wow, that just a horrible thing to say. Really, screw you.

I'm deeply disappointed reading the replies in this thread. Jeff Atwood's
article IS offensive, and if you knew the anything about depression you
wouldn't be saying what you just said.

I'm not much for starting fights on the internet, but seriously, you deserve a
big "Screw you!" :(

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teaj
Totally forgotten.

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funthree
> Aaron committed suicide because depression is a disease. Aaron made a very
> unfortunate choice. Jeff is right in that we lost an amazing person… someone
> whom we all should have helped. But I can guarantee that Aaron wasn’t
> thinking of software or what his death would mean to our community when he
> made his decision. All he wanted to do was stop the pain.

I realize this is a touchy subject for lots of people and I dont mean to
offend anyone. However, I feel obligated to advocate that Jeff's reasoning may
have been that "Aaron was not really depressed, it as a mental and moral
choice, he was already playing with all of his cards so it was a strategy" --
If Aaron didnt leave some last words stating his intentions it is hard to say
for sure, isnt it? There are many people in human history outside of
Christianity who have committed suicide on moral grounds[1] and while I
honestly have NO IDEA which way it went, speculating strongly on either
perspective seems unwise. There is a wide range of reasons why someone would
do something like that. One of them is definitely mental illness and
depression, one far less likely reason is the case for honor and morality --
e.g. to continue to strike the enemy and strip the enemy of their ability to
attain victory no matter what must be sacrificed of ones self. Since Aaron was
already playing with what he deemed "his life" some amount of mental illness
could have pushed him over the edge. It could have been one, the other, or a
combination of the two. I have no idea which and I dont think anyone really
does, maybe Aaron did not even know. But as far as I have read all of the
possibilities are on the table... Jeff was reasoning that no matter what the
punishment, if the intention is to show that a law is immoral the person
breaking the law should go through with being punished by the system to
respect the law and have it changed. Since Aaron didn't do that, that is why
he went "off the rails"

1\. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku>

~~~
danso
If "it's hard to say for sure", then one wonders what the point of writing an
essay comparing the suicidal act to that of rage quitting a video game.

~~~
rys
It uses language that people can relate to and lets the man express his
feelings in the best way he knows how. The article was likely a true catharsis
for Atwood.

