

You can be a web designer and not know HTML/CSS? - cottsak
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2534-the-idea-that-you-could-make-a-website-and

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pan69
I believe this to be a very serious issue. Having worked with both designers
who not only understand HTML/CSS but actually build their OWN designs and
designers who don't have a clue about how websites are build I can tell the
difference is huge. I believe the problem is not just whether designs can or
cannot be build, I believe it's more about if designs can be build within an
estimated timeframe and budget. Designers who don't understand how websites
are build seem to come up with monstrosities of designs that never can be
build within budgets and timeframes. Sure, the designs look good. As a poster
or a flyer but we're building websites here... Designers who do not understand
how websites are build seem to design every single website as a massive
bitmap. I've had to build 5 megabyte home pages simply because a designer
didn't understand the medium. The client wasn't very happy when they where
slapped with a massive bill at the end of each month because of the amount of
bandwidth the site was using. Don't get me started on gradients and the fact
that a browser can have different sizes or the fact that a design needs to be
"pixel perfect" (which seems to be impossible to understand for some
designers).

Being a "web designer" and not knowing HTML/CSS is just plain stupid. How can
you work in this industry? Go work in print where you belong with the rest of
the fossils.

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seasoup
I don't know about "must" know html/css, but to get beyond a certain level of
competency in designing web pages, to be able to make designs that are easily
transferable to code, a knowledge of html/css will come into play.

I've worked with designers with and without this knowledge before, as well as
designers familiar with css, but not html, and I can say that working with
designers that knew html/css is far easier. Much less back and forth. Also,
the ones without the knowledge get annoyed when told their designs don't
translate well to code.

HTML/CSS does not take that much effort to learn. Just put in the effort and
at least pick up the basics. Read a book on it. You don't need to know the ins
and outs, but knowing the basics will help you design sites. And maybe you
will find it interesting, and learn all the nitty gritty too. It will make you
a better web designer.

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dlsspy
I'm guilty of ridiculous analogies, but some of these are just beyond making
sense.

The one that annoyed me the most here that I saw (twice) was the parallel
between layers taking you down to understanding TCP/IP and socket programming.
I'm quite certain I'm not the only person who's ever designed a (fairly rich)
web site that does not in any way use networks. An attempt at such an analogy
will only show your own lack of understanding of the layers.

I've had web designers who do great design and UX work and would deliver it to
me in a basic HTML format with at least basic CSS that I could apply in the
product. These were successful designers that enabled the team to build high
quality products.

If I'm going to implement a web design I received in .psd format, you might as
well just come over and describe what you're envisioning. You are simply "an
idea guy" (though hopefully with really good ideas that I couldn't've thought
of myself) at that point and photoshop is a tool you use to communicate that
idea. If you work in a sufficiently large organization, that's probably just
fine.

I communicate a lot of my ideas in .org when I can. Most of the time, my ideas
come out in .py, .c, .cc, .erlang, .java, .js, .html, .sass, or whatever else
feels like a fit.

The fewer people you have between the problem and the solution, the faster
things move.

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mattmcknight
The biggest difference I find is that the designer who doesn't understand the
guts of layout ends up with a site that is literally inflexible: it doesn't
resize well and is really hard to modify later. The general outdated-ness of
many corporate sites can be tracked to the difficulty of getting a flexible
layout in place that lets you add a new item to the site without a total
redesign.

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zepolen
If you are talking about a web designer, then I don't think it's _necessary_
to know HTML/CSS, just good UI design, since they can create their designs in
photoshop.

It's then the job of a web developer to convert that design to something a
computer can display.

Sometimes people do both, and that's fine, although sometimes the people who
know HTML/CSS can't design their way out of a paper bag. I'm one of them.

~~~
andre3k1
Yes, but without a general knowledge of HTML/CSS you won't know what is
possible and what isn't possible in your design.

So yes, you may design some amazing layout in photoshop with crazy features
and what not, but it simply may not be doable from a coding perspective.

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derefr
I've never seen a layout that's proven to be impossible to code (and my
designer partner has thrown some pretty ludicrous ones at me.) Can you give an
example?

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whatusername
Make it look like a winamp skin from the late 90's -- but a round one, not
rectangular -- and I want to be able to see the desktop behind it. Something
like one of these:
[http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_GGYg1kts8gE/S0lGIjFiOPI/AAAAAAAAA7...](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_GGYg1kts8gE/S0lGIjFiOPI/AAAAAAAAA7A/P5c-2CSq1uQ/s400/Skin+Winamp+software+download+gratis+free.jpg)

~~~
zepolen
Impossible currently because browsers themselves don't support that. However
if they did, I don't see how this is different from having a transparent
background.

~~~
derefr
In fact, there is a type of "browser" that _does_ support this feature
already: _desktop widget engines_ , i.e. Windows Sidebar, OSX Dashboard, et
al.

Now, of course, these "browsers" don't support most of the _other_ features
that browsers usually _do_ support (for example, navigation), but if you want
to make a little, oddly-shaped gadget using HTML+JS, they're just right.

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27182818284
A web designer that doesn't know HTML/CSS is fine.

A web developer that knows HTML/CSS and can use a designer's mockup is fine.

The manager of those two parties that doesn't have experience in both can be
troublesome.

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geuis
Ok, some thoughts after reading through some of the comments both here and on
the original article.

1) If you are putting words onto a website, you are not designing anything.
You are publishing content. That content can be a story, a comment, an ad,
etc. You are not designing or building a site. You are not a web designer nor
a developer.

2) If you have received a graphic representation of a site (say from a graphic
designer) and are implementing that design into a functioning page using
wysiwyg-ish tools that do not require you to know how the underlying html &
css technologies, you are building a site. Despite the use of tools, the end
result is a page that works in at least one browser. You are the base-level
web developer. However, you will _never_ work for me until you learn html,
css, and probably javascript too.

3) If you are only a graphic designer and you are pushing pixels to create a
site layout, you are nominally a web designer. It is permissible for a pixel-
pusher to do nothing _but_ design, but unless you have some moderate level of
actual coding you are doing a disservice to yourself and your coworkers. One
of my biggest continuing gripes over the years is being given visual layouts
that look interesting, but are nearly impossible to implement cleanly. A
related issue is that graphic designers who never actually build sites nearly
always leave major gaps in the UX of their designs. They don't think through
every aspect of their design (what are the hover states, what should it look
like when the mouse is here or here, etc). Essentially, if you are _only_ a
graphic designer you will not work for me unless you have some actual
_developer_ experience.

In the end, you can get a spectrum from #2-#3. I am a web developer who has
been doing this for something like 10 years. I have moderate photoshop skills
and have created my own designs before. But I'm only adequate at design.

Other people I have worked with are primarily graphic designers that are
adequate at developing. They make amazing looking designs that sometimes have
a few UX problems. However, when you put that kind of person with a developer
like me, you can hit a nice sweet spot where we understand enough of each
other's worlds that we can really get some shit done.

Finally, my tweet from a few weeks ago about this very problem,
<http://twitter.com/geuis/status/22554072991>

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morganpyne
I am constantly astonished at the amount of people who call themselves "web
designers" and yet do nothing but paint pictures in Photoshop and couldn't
even attempt a basic implementation in HTML/CSS. This seems to be widely
accepted as standard in the industry and yet strikes me as irrational as
calling yourself a painter and yet only being able to describe in prose what
the picture should look like, never having bothered to learn how to actually
paint or understand the medium.

An artist can only excel when they not only understand but learn to embrace
and utilize the uniqueness and quirks of the medium they work in.

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hkuo
I would actually take this argument even further and add an understanding of
good UX with a sprinkle of business knowledge. Without the UX, a designer has
no basis on what works for each particular type of user, and without a basic
understanding of business, the designer will lack the understanding of what
and why they're actually designing the thing they're designing.

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karzeem
It's not strictly necessary to know HTML/CSS, but I can't see how you could be
a web designer and not _want_ to learn. Back in the day when all I could do
was Photoshop and InDesign, I'd constantly think, "I wish I could code this up
myself."

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drewbuschhorn
Sure you can, you can also be a writer and not know what punctuation is. In
fact that would explain a few things around the web.

oh wait, you meant _a good web designer_ ...

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JBBergman
Actually, I would argue against both points. A writer must know punctuation...
good or bad. If they don't know what punctuation is, they can't complete a
story, book, article or otherwise. Similarly, and by definition, a web
designer must know basic html and css to design for the web. Otherwise,
they're just a designer (or, if they want to get tricky with it, designer for
web projects).

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spicyj
A writer can complete a comment like this without punctuation and its not too
hard to read but I agree with you that it needs some commas

~~~
cottsak
That's not a writer. And watch out making such a statement to a writer.

