
My grandfather at Dunkirk - happy-go-lucky
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40852280
======
pjc50
Alright then: Britsplaining Dunkirk. Not the actual events, but the
significance of it to the national culture. For the actual history it is hard
to beat having it narrated to you by Olivier in _The World At War_.

Many countries have a famous defeat or last stand. Dunkirk is ours; our
Thermopylae, our Alamo, our Stalingrad, our Pearl Harbour. Many countries also
have a famous mobilisation of the people - a revolution, something with a
national day to name streets after. Dunkirk is ours.

The popular memory of Dunkirk is one of spontaneous organisation. _Not_ an
organised event run by the state, but one where the official efforts had
already failed and British lives could only be saved by a mass ad-hoc action
by whichever members of the public happened to be at hand to crew a boat. This
ties in with the wider popular memory of the war as "total effort": everyone
was a contributor.

This leads to "Dunkirk spirit": spontaneous solidarity in the face of
adversity. Often invoked lightheartedly in the face of ordinary disasters like
being stuck on a train for hours or squelching about a drenched music
festival, but it works for more serious events too. It was invoked a lot when
the Ariana Grande concert was bombed in Manchester. This is part of why there
is no real counter-part to the individualism of survivalists or "preppers" in
the UK: everyone believes that when a real disaster happens, you can rely on
your fellow members of the public, and we will survive together.

A detail of the news interview that is very relevant to the whole thing is
"stiff upper lip", and responding to threats with blithe dismissal and
flippancy. The officer on the beach saying "I wish they wouldn't do that"
about the strafing is the exemplar here. But there's quite a few famous,
extreme examples: [https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/major-digby-
tatham...](https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/major-digby-tatham-
warter.html)

~~~
int_19h
> Many countries have a famous defeat or last stand. Dunkirk is ours; our
> Thermopylae, our Alamo, our Stalingrad, our Pearl Harbour.

I'm not sure why Stalingrad is on this list. Do you mean that it was a
glorious last stand for the Germans? I haven't noticed it being represented in
that manner in German culture before.

If you meant it as an example of last stand in Russian culture, then the most
prominent and well-known (in that culture) example of it would rather be this:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Brest_Fortress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Brest_Fortress).

~~~
siberianbear
It was a last stand for _Russians_ in WW2. Stalin was determined not to let
the city bearing his name fall. He funnelled a huge amount of soldiers and
materiel in order to keep the city. The Germans tried to blitzkreig it, but
the Russians held it and the battle persisted on the streets of the city for a
long time.

It was a brutal battle. The USSR suffered 1,129,619 total casualties; 478,741
personnel killed or missing, and 650,878 wounded or sick.[1]

The USSR eventually won the battle, and it was the first real turning point in
the war.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad)

~~~
azernik
It also had actual strategic important - as the closest point between the Don
and Volga rivers, it was a center of industry and transshipment. (The industry
was mostly destroyed during the battle, but its logistical importance
remained.)

These days, it's still a major transportation hub - only there's now a canal
connecting the two rivers, allowing ship transport aong the Black, Caspian,
and Baltic seas (and to the traditional population and economic centers around
Moscow and Petrograd).

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arethuza
For anyone interested in finding out more about Dunkirk and the events leading
up to the evacuation I can strongly recommend _" Dunkirk: Fight to the Last
Man"_ by Hugh Sebag-Montefiore. It gives the British, French and German
viewpoints and covers the incredible scale of the operation in a way that the
movie couldn't really do.

~~~
zerkten
I'm about halfway through "The Miracle of Dunkirk: The True Story of Operation
Dynamo" by Walter Lord. Finding it to be a good read and it looks like it's
still only $2.99 on Kindle if that sways it for anyone.

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fiftyacorn
The World at War documentary series has a good episode about dunkirk.

One of the small boat captains describes picking up soldiers from the beach on
dunkirk then getting back to sea, where they were met by a UK frigate. The
frigate offered to take the soldiers to let the small boat go back to the
beach(as was the plan) and the captain said "no chance mate get your own
soldiers we're off back to blighty"

Some great lines in that series

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Bulkington
Side note, forgotten (by me): Post-Dunkirk, Britain and France--represented by
Churchill and DeGaulle--planned to unite. From The Atlantic story:

"Although that battle story is fairly well known, the accompanying political
drama that almost saw Britain and France merge is now largely forgotten. But
the drama of that near-fusion can help explain the origins of European
integration—and the reasons why Britain ultimately pulled away from the
European Union in the decision we know as Brexit."

Common knowledge in GB/France? How's the Brexit analysis?

[https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/08/du...](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/08/dunkirk-
brexit/536106/)

~~~
lmm
I thought this was going to be about later on, during Suez - I understand a
union was proposed then too. This one I didn't know about, so I expect few
Brits do.

The Brexit analogy is... eh, kind of overblown IMO, though I guess that's my
views on cultural history in general. Brexit is more a result of domestic
party politics than a reflection of our foreign relations, and it was Eastern
Europe that loomed larger in the public consciousness when talking about the
EU.

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erik_landerholm
Courage like this always impresses me in a profound way. I only hope I could
be this brave and humble about it.

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darod
what's interesting is the faces they decided not to portray in the movie.
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/01/indian...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/01/indian-
african-dunkirk-history-whitewash-attitudes)

~~~
kyberias
What was the actual proportion of the faces on that beach missing from the
movie? Was it 1:2, 1:10, 1:100, 1:1000 or 1:10000 or 1:100000?

~~~
dagw
~1:250 - 1:500 depending on what sources you use.

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dba7dba
For those who want to know more about why Dunkirk came about and why it was so
shocking that France capitulated so quickly, I recommend this book.

> Nineteen Weeks: America, Britain, and the Fateful Summer of 1940

Few things I learned that I didn't know.

1\. After Dunkir, UK govt was actually quite seriously considering suing for
peace and to leave the Continental Europe to Nazi Germany. One reason was the
financial cost. UK could've sued for peace and save their treasury (already
seriously depleted after WW1). Or decide to fight and pay for the cost of war
(like in money).

2\. As Prime Minister Chamberlain resigned, he was faced with picking a
successors: Lord Halifax and Churchill. Churchill was the 2nd choice.

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kikimaru
> "I wish they wouldn't do that," said the officer with impressive cool. I
> tried to copy his nonchalant tone and said, "I suppose you get quite used to
> that sort of thing." "Not a bit of it, old man," he replied, lowering his
> voice. "What you get used to is pretending you are not as scared as your men
> are."

I guess Lindybeige wasn't spoofing:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrauBQf7FpI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrauBQf7FpI)

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gadders
I love this example of sang froid:

"I wish they wouldn't do that," said the officer with impressive cool. I tried
to copy his nonchalant tone and said, "I suppose you get quite used to that
sort of thing." "Not a bit of it, old man," he replied, lowering his voice.
"What you get used to is pretending you are not as scared as your men are."

Anyone got a link to the whole account?

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jlebrech
I'm kinda surprised he's not a black guy.

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fundabulousrIII
Germans could have ended the war there. Hitlers hubris saved the western world
(to it's current state).

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YouEatThatSoup
Currently reading about Dunkirk because of the movie.

Interesting how the British told the French and Belgians to fight on while
preparing and keeping their evacuation a secret. They even forced the French
at gunpoint who wanted to defend Dunkirk to destroy their weapons. French who
wanted to embark were shot at by the BEF - at the same time when French
destroyers were helping the evacuation by fighting German E-boats. The BEF got
away and the French fighting were captured. All RAF fighter squadrons were
moved to the UK ahead of the evacuation.

It looks this was mostly by the BEF generals in France while Churchill wanted
them to fight with the French.

~~~
toomanybeersies
Let's not forget that Churchill ordered the Royal Navy to attack the French
Navy in 1940 as well [1], killing 1300 people.

[1]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-
el-K%C3%A9bir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-K%C3%A9bir)

~~~
celticninja
Context being everything, the French Navy was at that stage under the control
of the Vichy government of France, essentially a German puppet government and
had Churchill not attacked the fleet it was likely it would have been used
against the British Forces.

~~~
toomanybeersies
It was likely that the French would've tried to scuttle the fleet had the
Germans tried to requisition it, as happened 2 years later in Toulon [1]. But
obviously, hindsight is 20/20, there was no way for the British to guarantee
that this was going to happen.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_French_fleet_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_French_fleet_in_Toulon)

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beemanners
This is an ad for a movie, thanks social media.

~~~
caseysoftware
Or maybe this is a response to new interest in the actual historic event?

(Opening weekend was 3+ weeks ago, the media blitz is long gone.)

~~~
keithpeter
My grandfather was left behind at Dunkirk, taken prisoner, spent the rest of
the war in Poland and returned home in one piece but very thin (6ft 4 and
weighing around 8 stone according to family legend). He died aged 48 a year
before I was born - heart problems, which might be expected I suppose.

I'm now working with the jigsaw of records and archives in the UK to try and
find a little more about what happened and where as a result of the film
mainly.

