

The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills - _pius
http://techcrunch.com/2015/03/18/the-detroit-water-project-connect-donors-to-unpaid-water-bills/

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jaebrown
I have a problem with this and question YC for taking on The Detroit Water
Project. I'm truly not trying to be difficult but I do not see the full
context of the situation here or in the TC article. I'm a native Detroiter
(not the suburbs and live in the city now) and know that this problem is not
as severe as often publicized.

There are programs already in place for people who are struggling to pay their
water bills by the city, county, and state to avoid shut off regardless of
their economic status. Why not focus your efforts on getting people enrolled
in those programs; which would ensure they're doing everything within their
power to keep water on.

As indicated by the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department, in the news,
talking circles, and community events, there are some that simply choose not
to pay their bill over others (i.e. phone, cable, etc...). What is the need to
pay your bill if others will do it for you? The city has made a ton of bad
decisions but this is not one of them.

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tiffani
Thanks for the comment. Yes, there are programs in place that help people with
their bills. They've a number of problems, however. Some ran out of funds and
couldn't help any more people. What's interesting about those programs is that
a few (including the Detroit Water & Sewerage Department itself) started
referring people to us. Others (such as state-run programs) moved too slowly
to prevent shut-offs.

Yes, there are people who simply choose not to pay their bills. When we
determine that's the case with an applicant, they don't get assistance.
Simple.

On top of that, we provide one-time assistance, so there isn't an opportunity
to just decide to lean on us and stop paying a bill.

~~~
jaebrown
When looking through your website, I didn't see any information regarding any
of what you've mentioned. As a Detroiter, I take it personal when
organizations try to award pity on the city, as if we're some type of charity
case. Yes there are some that are in real hardship for the moment, while other
make choices. It is those choices that has led to the ruin porn of Detroit. I
simply don't agree with providing assistance every time a hardship is
presented versus providing resources for people to ensure it never happens to
them again. I probably don't have to tell you the story of "Teach a man how to
fish" or provide links on how giving away anything has statistically not
helped; which others have already done.

I know people taking advantage of the programs already established and
organization like yours. As you may determine a fraud case with some
applicants, I would find it very hard to believe there is no fraud.

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xhrpost
Pretty neat, just made a small donation. I think it would be cool to see real-
time statistics and various metrics. Like how much has been given (regularly
updating). What goals there are to reach people in certain priority levels,
like 45% complete on P1 which is customer's water is scheduled for turn-off
within the month. Show what numbers of monthly commitments would be needed.
Etc. Donors could then better see the impact they are making. I think this is
a big advantage to Watsi where you can see the person and their story. That
may not be as simple for this project, but even aggregate metrics that show
progress I think would be a huge incentive.

~~~
tiffani
Thanks for the donation! And these are really good suggestions. That
transparency is definitely a goal.

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sctb
We updated the URL from [http://blog.ycombinator.com/the-detroit-water-
project-yc-w15...](http://blog.ycombinator.com/the-detroit-water-project-
yc-w15-connects-donors-to-unpaid-water-bills), which points to this.

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funkyy
From when giving stuff for free to people helps them? How will they learn to
save and organize their lives? Social welfare was never a solution to ANY
problem when provided long term to the same people. Instead of giving for free
lets do this - ask people to work for 8 hours a week cleaning streets etc -
and IN EXCHANGE their water bills will be paid off.

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pdabbadabba
Do you seriously contend that the problems plaguing Detroit are a result of
their residents' collective failure to organize their lives properly? I think
most people agree that the rampant poverty in Detroit -- and the resulting
unpaid water bills -- are largely a result of city-level mismanagement and the
evaporation of employment opportunities resulting in tax-revenue death spiral.
We're talking about a city where the police sometimes just don't show up in
response to burglaries and the school system doesn't provide city-wide busing.
And you're here lecturing the entire population of Detroit about financial
responsibility.

Perhaps there are some Detroit residents who, if they were just a little more
organized, could get themselves into a better situation. But some of them are
just in bad situations no matter what they do. And who knows, maybe some of
them haven't paid their water bills because they have decided that food,
shelter, and medicine are more important. But nah, best to leave them with no
running water. Otherwise, how will they learn?

Edit: I suspect if the city of Detroit offered the deal you're suggesting,
there would be lines for it around the block (though even these lines would
contain only the people who had transportation to get to the line, had someone
to watch their children while they worked, etc.).

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csixty4
Detroit has also raised the price of water a couple times over the last decade
to make up for budget shortfalls from lower tax revenue. I think it's more
than double what it was in 2005.

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tiffani
Right. There have been increases in the price of water in Detroit. And they're
angling to increase them again.

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toomuchtodo
So shouldn't the project focus on providing decentralized water management to
residents (roof capture, condensing from the air) instead of funneling money
into a system used for tax collection with the side effect of providing water?

Solar can be used for distributed generation, why can we not provide
distributed water production?

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falsestprophet
It is useful to put projects like this in context. People are dying for want
of $1000 - $5000 worth of medical treatment in poor countries.

"Donors have given over $170,000 for water bills for over 900 families in
Detroit." 170 children's lives could have been saved for the same amount.

If you asked the beneficiaries of this project whether they would prefer a
life was saved over their water bill being paid, I think most would say save a
life.

Though these people are desperately poor (and probably rationally hopeless),
they are citizens of a wealthy and powerful nation that will not let them
suffer too much like over a billion other people with real problems do.

Watsi.org is a good place to start if you are serious about helping people.

I'm astounded that the practical and serious people at YC are participating in
a goofball project like this that is competing for resources with serious
efforts to do good.

~~~
tiffani
Founder of Detroit Water Project here. Despite what you’ve said, this _is_ a
serious effort to do good. You mention saving a life versus contributing to a
water bill. Why are those so dissimilar? Our assistance application data shows
that over 350 children are in houses affected by this crisis.

Not having running water at your house _is_ a real problem. It’s a public
health and sanitation issue. People have not been able to flush their toilets,
clean, cook, or exist in a state of dignity.

On top of that, without running water in a house in Detroit, a house can be
ruled unfit for habitation. That can translate to children being removed from
the home because they're in a dwelling unfit for habitation. Preventing
families from being broken up isn't goofing around.

It’s a false dichotomy to say that you either save a life by helping a child
in a poor country OR give to a water bill in the United States. You can do
both in proportion to your ability.

Yes, these people are citizens of a wealthy and powerful nation, but we’ve
already seen that it’s allowed them to suffer greatly. The City of Detroit
itself—especially before we forced them to react—turned people off with very
little regard to someone’s ability to pay.

You should volunteer to help us return phone calls to people that need help.
If you do, I’m sure you’ll find that this is as serious a project as any!

Edit: On losing children, etc.

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falsestprophet
I suggest offering the option to both your donors and recipients to divert the
funds to save as many lives as possible (call the Watsi crew).

 _" It’s a false dichotomy to say that you either save a life by helping a
child in a poor country OR give to a water bill in the United States. You can
do both in proportion to your ability."_

For whatever proportion of someone's resources they are willing to give, they
can choose to save lives for US$1-5k each.

Instead of providing one $1k life saving surgery and $1k water bill, two $1k
surgeries could save two lives.

Sadly there is not a shortage of dying men, women and children who can be
saved cheaply.

Perhaps one day there will be... if we stop goofing around.

~~~
tiffani
I'm not against people getting medical treatments if they need them, but why
call what we're doing "goofy"?

The single mother of three we helped who was contemplating forgoing her heart
medication to make sure her children had water (and lost it anyway because she
_needed_ her heart medication) wouldn't call this "goofing around."

I'm genuinely interested in why you insist on framing this that way.

Edit: Nothing that we're doing suggests we value some lives over others. Watsi
helps a specific demographic, we help another. Everyone wins here.

~~~
falsestprophet
We should value all lives equally. Yours, mine, that mother, her children, and
the children in far away places who will die today for want of heart surgery.

~~~
jes
This will probably sound harsh, and I regret that, but I think it's the way
things actually are, as against how we might otherwise want them to be.

When you say "We should value all lives equally," what pops into my head is
the question "Of value to whom?"

In fact, if I had to choose between saving the life of a stranger, and
choosing to save the life of someone I loved, I'd save the latter. This is
because the person I love is a greater value to me than is the stranger.

