
U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines - richardboegli
https://pilotonline.com/news/military/local/the-u-s-navy-s-most-advanced-submarines-will-soon/article_5c24eefc-8e70-5c4a-9d82-00d29e052b76.html
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jedc
Former submariner here. My thoughts echo those of a ex-submariner group I'm a
part of -- it makes sense across the board. It's 1) a cost saving measure, 2)
WAY easier to get replacements, and 3) WAAAYY easier to train new people to
use it safely and efficiently.

~~~
cstross
I'd have two big reservations about this.

1\. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design
life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of
...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of _much_ less than 33
years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by
and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce.

(If you think this is an exaggeration, consider the availability of spare
parts today for a computer system commissioned 33 years ago, in 1984 — an
original IBM PC XT, perhaps, or an original Macintosh, both of which were
manufactured in — for the time — high volume. Things like 5.25" floppy disks,
or a replacement M-series IBM keyboard with the original DIN plug, were once
ubiquitous, but today they're rarities.)

2\. A second concern is that these days _everything_ comes with an embedded
processor and an enterprising hostile entity might try to sneak malware on
board a fast attack submarine via the periscope controller handset. (I've no
idea what form such malware might take, or what it might accomplish, but
that's not the point: it's that using cheap commercial handsets widens the
threat surface of the submarine's sensor suite arbitrarily.)

~~~
LibertyBeta
Good points, but I think we can work around them.

1) As others have said xinput is pervasive as this point. If the Xbox 360
controller becomes hard to source then I'm sure a replacement xinput derived
device will still be around. If not, it's a well documented standard and new
devices can be made.

2) This leans on my first response. Xinput is the winner here, not the Xbox
controller. If after testing they can't harden it then we have a lot of other
options, up to and including a bespoke controller.

I guess what I'm saying is that video game controls are so much fun for a
reason. They 'just work'. And while there is a little bit of dystopian sheen
to seeing video games become the source for defacto tooling for war machines
I'm always for a simplification of man/machine interactions.

~~~
jsjohnst
> If the Xbox 360 controller becomes hard to source then I'm sure a
> replacement xinput derived device will still be around. If not, it's a well
> documented standard and new devices can be made.

First of all, I want to say I agree with you. That said, you didn't really
refute GP's point.

The IBM XT was well documented, had many clones and alternatives, but still
you can't find parts at most electronic stores _33 years later_. Several
decades is a _very long time_ in consumer electronics.

~~~
jerf
One thing I'd point out is that the only relevant objections are things that
are true about the XBox controller that aren't true about _all_ the
alternatives. One-off bespoke custom hardware at dozens of thousands of
dollars a pop are not necessarily going to be better supported at these time
scales, because even if you sign an iron-clad contract with an entity to do
whatever maintenance you could dream up, they still have the "going out of
business entirely" option. You also can't neglect the hours of training
involved and all the other associated costs with bespoke solutions.

We're trying to solve the problem of how to point periscopes here, not solve
the generalized problem that when it comes down to it, nobody _really_ knows
what 2027 is going to be like.

(By contrast, "this is a new vector for malware if the supply chain is not
secured" is a valid concern because one presumes and/or hopes that bespoke
military hardware is better controlled there. This is a solvable problem, but
solving it eats into the cost advantage.)

~~~
jsjohnst
Responding "the same problem exists with the custom hardware" isn't what
everyone is replying with. Instead they keep going with the trope that it's an
open standard and not realizing the example given was an open standard 33
years ago.

Further more, I agree with your parenthetical that the malware angle is the
more important argument. I disagree that it's a solveable problem though, but
I feel the Xbox controller isn't the reason it isn't solvable. Any platform
can be hacked given sufficient motivation.

Honestly I think using these controllers are likely the best approach, but
let's not pretend it doesn't have issues (it's just the it's the same issues
or less cumbersome issues than alternatives).

~~~
throwawayjava
This is an interesting debate, but I think it misses the most important point:
cost.

The Navy can buy thousands of Xbox controllers for the cost of even a single
bespoke controller. The US has on the order of 100 submarines. Replacement
controllers for the lifetime of each submarine -- even multiplied by 10 -- is
a hilariously small cost compared to the alternatives.

So buy 1,000+ Xbox controllers and keep them in a warehouse. Problem solved.

~~~
collinmanderson
> buy 1,000+ Xbox controllers and keep them in a warehouse.

Yes, I was going to suggest this. It would solve the availability issue and
reduce the malware issue. If it's replacing a $38,000 item, they could buy
1,265 extra per sub.

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wakamoleguy
This is one of those simple ideas that makes a lot of sense. I'm glad to hear
there are teams working to reduce costs _and_ improve UX for the military.

Microsoft obviously did a lot of user testing with their controller, but they
must have been optimizing for a certain consumer price point as well. It makes
me wonder what sort of controller you would have if they spent all that focus
on usability, but with the same $38,000 price tag the periscope control panel
commands.

~~~
jjoonathan
Once you add the cost of adapting the periscope HW/SW and organizing +
performing a one-off small run of XBox controllers on a US-only supply chain
with military markup at each level, I suspect those "XBox controllers" cost
closer to $30k than $30.

~~~
microcolonel
Given that the 360 is no longer the current model, it's possible that they
just took back the molds and swapped out a couple of the ICs. There's very
little in a 360 controller to begin with. Even the wireless ones have only one
complex/specialized IC[0], and it seems to have been designed by Microsoft
themselves.

About half of the semiconductor industry is headquartered in the United
States, and about half of the wafer capacity of U.S-headquartered
semiconductor manufacturing companies is in the U.S. It is perfectly
reasonable to expect Microsoft to be able to manufacture their own IC design
in the country with the single greatest semiconductor manufacturing industry
in the world.

Edit: here's a (low res) image of the wired controller. It too seems to have
only one complex IC, and that too seems to have Microsoft markings on it[1].

[0]:
[https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/4O1NH31bxPOMsUxu.h...](https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/4O1NH31bxPOMsUxu.huge)
[1]:
[https://cdn.instructables.com/FP6/6FYR/Z4BEV2Z5NA5/FP66FYRZ4...](https://cdn.instructables.com/FP6/6FYR/Z4BEV2Z5NA5/FP66FYRZ4BEV2Z5NA5.MEDIUM.jpg)

~~~
0xbear
You have only very vague understanding of how our government works. First,
they will not contract this to some startup or anything, but instead the
company that does the periscope will do it. Then there are reams of
regulations to follow, an everything the contractor does will be the most
expensive option available because they charge percentage of “cost”, and the
higher the cost, the more money they make. I would be stunned if in the end
this ends up being cheaper than just manufacturing the designs that already
exist.

~~~
microcolonel
> _First, they will not contract this to some startup or anything, but instead
> the company that does the periscope will do it._

Wouldn't they contract Microsoft to do it, since it's their own design? Even
by DoD standards, Microsoft is not a "startup".

I know that there are 360 controllers used in the field already (not sure
about Navy). Even if they have different standards, what you're describing
probably couldn't be done anyway; the periscope controller company is probably
not equipped to do the beautiful consumer goods injection moldings and
precision joystick assembly (and calibration). If they tried to do this, it
would likely end up costing _more_ , and as diabolical as I think the military
procurement contracting process is, I don't think they would do this specific
thing unless it saved money or appeared to save money.

What exactly is stopping them from working with Microsoft (who they already
contract with all the time!); at most having a U.S. PCB run, and a U.S. IC
tapeout (IBM, Intel, ...), and calling it a day?

~~~
0xbear
The periscope company will just CNC it out of a solid block of titanium then.

Microsoft wouldn’t want their business. It’s a relatively small amount of
money for very large amount of pain in the rear. And even if they did want
DoDs business, DoD wouldn’t deal with them directly, instead they’d
subcontract them through one of those giant contracting companies with
“Federal” in their name.

~~~
microcolonel
> _DoD wouldn’t deal with them directly_

Why wouldn't they deal with them directly? They already do!

I understand being cynical, but you have to admit you're making a satire of
this system, no matter how ridiculous it is in reality.

~~~
0xbear
I’m not being cynical, I’m speaking from direct experience. Satire, as it
turns out, is not quite as inventive as government bureaucrats.

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dundercoder
I love it when manufacturers choose to use common and inexpensive
connectors/components, rather than choosing to make their own proprietary one.
Using the iec 320 c13/14, usb micro, and other "standard" connectors is
laudable.

~~~
graphitezepp
Big fan of standardization as a principle over here. Even if the technology in
question isn't the best, if its adequate I become an advocate as soon as its
near being a standard. More use of common and inexpensive things and more
standards just makes everything more modular and easier to fix in general.

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miketery
That's great. Those controllers are awesome, durable, easily replaceable,
cheap, portable, intuitive, and have undergone an ungodly amount of user
testing. Most importantly the recruits will typically have experience having
used them in the past.

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danschumann
That's a good sign. I'm sure the alternative is getting a quote from some
contracter who would want to reinvent the wheel for millions of dollars, and
probably a worse result. Microsoft already did the legwork of development.
More consumer products ( as long as there are sufficient fallbacks / quality
control ), in military operations, is a-ok in my book.

~~~
amigoingtodie
Here is an alternative:

[http://www.cw-industrialgroup.com/About/Penny-Giles.aspx](http://www.cw-
industrialgroup.com/About/Penny-Giles.aspx)

~~~
ams6110
To be fair, their stuff is very good.

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newman8r
I have been using an xbox one controller instead of a mouse for 4 or 5 months
now. I use the qjoypad package to map the thing. It's really great and I
believe it's why my chronic right-side back pain has completely vanished.

So as someone who uses this type of input device, I think it's a great fit for
military use.

~~~
mih
I started doing this too, but use Antimicro
([https://github.com/AntiMicro/antimicro](https://github.com/AntiMicro/antimicro))
instead of Qjoypad, since I find it to be more configurable. I don't use it as
a replacement for a mouse but a keyboard instead. I configure it for specific
apps where I need repetetive keystrokes, such as :

\- VLC when I need an easier way to seek media by various amounts, speed-
up/slow-down the video, play next in the playlist. Using the controller frees
me from being hunched on the keyboard

\- Any document reader to navigate pages

It can of course be configured as a replacement for a mouse, but the precision
in my experience was way lower.

~~~
newman8r
I'm going to take a look at that

I ran into the precision issue as well, but my brain eventually figured out
how to deal with it. I use the left analog pad for higher precision tasks

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drharby
Did development engineering in the air force. Worked with xbox360 drivers as a
PoC for bomb defusal bots. The troops loved the ergonomics, and the product
was cheap. iirc i think irobot does use these for our bomb bots

~~~
KGIII
And many youth will already be trained on the controller.

I've seen this subject come up before. It makes sense. I believe it was even
considered for UAV controls.

~~~
rkuykendall-com
> And many youth will already be trained on the controller.

And if they're not, give the troops XBOXs and Halo, and they'll be more than
happy to train THEMSELVES on it in their free time!

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dba7dba
South Korean Navy recently retrofitted their Type 209 and other submarines
with digital camera based pericopes, replacing traditional periscopes.

When the South Korean Navy procurement office requested proposal from
traditional periscope manufacturers, the quoted price was astronomical.

S Korean Navy said no thanks and had local manufacturers
develop/test/manufacture a new digital camera based periscope at a FRACTION
(like 10% ?) of the quoted price from traditional manufacturers.

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0xcde4c3db
While they're not likely to be the best control experience you can possibly
get for a given application (as any serious FPS or fighting game player can
tell you), the mainstream official console controllers really are engineering
and design feats in their own right. This is one of those things where getting
it 90% right is easy but the last 10% will make people hate using it.

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deliriousferret
Will it vibrate when they get hit?

~~~
KGIII
Technically, yes. Possibly a very short vibration, however.

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org3432
Well I'd rather use awsd and a mouse personally.

~~~
my_ghola
They probably added auto-aim.

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bitwize
Why not? It's a good controller, cheap, and readily available.

I'm reminded of the in-joke in _Metal Gear Solid 4_ that saw Solid Snake use a
PS3 controller to joystick around the "Metal Gear Mark II" recon drone. Then,
as early as later that same year, actual soldiers were operating actual drones
with Xbox controllers...

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GuB-42
What about ratings? Military hardware typically use electronics with wider
margins for temperature, humidity, power surge, etc... While consumer hardware
is used a lot in R&D and testing, it normally doesn't make it to the final
product.

Of course, I practice, I think that a peripheral designed to withstand the
wrath of gamers worldwide could handle an actual war just fine. And if not,
replacements don't cost much. But still, it is surprising that armed forces
accept something not covered by rubber stamps and red tape.

~~~
snuxoll
This isn't the first time our armed forces have used the venerable Xbox 360
controller, they're cheap and easy to replace, ubiquitous, and basically
anyone can use one comfortably.

Sure, they aren't waterproof, dust proof, have overvoltage protection, etc.
but whatever - you can carry a dozen spares for $240.

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unsigner
The Xbox 360 wired controller is a great piece of kit, easily the best
controller ever as a balance of price, reliability, and simplicity of use -
the API has literally two functions, "what buttons are pressed" and "set
vibration to X". The initial Xbox One controllers were a clear regression,
although the recent Xbox One X are much better again. However, for use cases
such as the submarine in TFA, wireless is a liability, not an improvement.

~~~
snuxoll
The Xbox One controllers send data over the USB cable when plugged in. You
could make the argument that the USB cable could get pulled out of the
controller, but the Xbox 360 wired models have the breakaway which is just as
easy to pull out with a good yank anyway.

~~~
stordoff
> but the Xbox 360 wired models have the breakaway which is just as easy to
> pull out with a good yank anyway

If that became an issue, you could put duct tape around the breakaway to hold
it in place. More difficult with a micro USB connection.

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mkhalil
I also am one to agree that I think this is a great step forward with maybe
trimming off our huge military expenditures, particularly ones that come out
as "leaks" because they are so embarrassed of them.

I'm sure the U.S. navy will be taking a look at the hardware and maybe even
flashing their own firmware on them, lest we open ourselves up for a
catastrophic backdoor.

~~~
ams6110
In the overall cost of the periscope, I'd be surprised if the original $30K
controller was even 1% of the total. It's still $30,000 saved, but in the
scheme of things this sort of economizing is not going to have any impact.

What's more important is they found a more familiar, intuitive, hence better
controller device. That it was also much cheaper was just a little bonus. If
the savings in training hours are to be believed, that will be a much greater
savings than the cost of the hardware.

~~~
snuxoll
It also makes maintenance cheaper over time, that $30K controller is going to
cost a lot more to fix should it malfunction or get damaged than replacing a
$20 game controller.

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jedberg
> “I can go to any video game store and procure an Xbox controller anywhere in
> the world, so it makes a very easy replacement.”

Or the Rec room.

~~~
flashman
Great, now China's going to put malware into every Xbox controller on the off-
chance it gets inserted into a USN submarine /s

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DaiPlusPlus
This is something to worry about. USB hosts and devices identify themselves -
malicious firmware embedded in the Xbox controller could check if it's
connected to a real Xbox, compared to a Windows PC, or a submarine, and act
(or misbehave) accordingly.

And what is the plan in 20-30 years' time when the submarines are still in
action but the controllers stopped being made? I get the feeling we'll see
Navy personnel bidding on "vintage" Xbox controller auctions on eBay the same
way prices for original NES and Atari controllers are through the roof right
now.

~~~
iamapickle
USB hosts do not identify themselves to devices.

~~~
DaiPlusPlus
How does my iPhone know which PC I've plugged it into then? Even when iTunes
isn't installed (so no "Apple Mobile Device" drivers) it seems to remember my
privacy preferences on a per-host basis.

I'll concede that may be a feature of the allocation protocol running on top
of USB (PictBridge?) but that still means that mutual identification over USB
is still possible. I'm pretty sure it's in the USB HID spec that the Xbox
controllers implement.

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zzzeek
I worked at a military contractor one summer, decades ago. Back then, nothing
went out that wasn't mil-spec. My novice understanding of this was that
equipment used by the military must be able to withstand a much wider variety
of stress, and exhibit a much greater degree of usability under every possible
scenario, than could be provided by consumer-level products. Specifically, my
job at the time was sitting in a dark room helping to measure the light output
of switches that were used on airplane consoles. This was understandable
because this equipment is not only life-or-death but must perform in chaotic
and hostile environments.

TL;DR. Does the xbox 360 controller to be used on navy submarine work when
say....it gets wet? (or just how does it deal with saltwater corrosion). Not
to mention the security issues I see other people mentioning here.

~~~
dboshardy
No it probably doesn't do well when wet or corroded, but, instead of $38,000
for single point of failure, you now have watertight box of 20 (or more) $30
controllers.

~~~
zzzeek
I get that, but the corrosion is internal. The unit could fail in the middle
of a critical operation. How are they handling that?

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odammit
> The company says the photonic mast handgrip and imaging control panel that
> cost about $38,000 can be replaced with an Xbox controller that typically
> costs less than $30.

I'm curious if their supplier will give them the bargain US-government-only
price of $1999.95 per controller.

~~~
Sargos
Frankly that would still be a huge cost savings and I wouldn't even be mad

~~~
odammit
Gonna have to mark that up a bit more. :)

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jonathankoren
I've noticed xbox style controllers are very common in the military now. I'm
thinking it's a generational thing. It wasn't that long ago that you would
have seen a big joystick covered in buttons serving this purpose.

~~~
lygaret
imo, less generational and simply forward progress in human factors,
engineering and design.

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SophieHR
It's kinda funny and pragmatic at the same time. Soon tanks and planes will be
controlled this way too. It will be much easier to train all the gamers for
war in reality.

~~~
masklinn
On the other hand, it further "gamifies" war instruments and removes military
personnel from their actions.

~~~
unit91
Former PS3-controller-controlled weapon operator here. I don't think this is
accurate at all, for two reasons:

1\. The more technology involved, the more audio/video/telemetry is recorded
and stored. If we shot somebody, there was ALWAYS a legal review afterward.
Your average grunt doesn't face anywhere near that level of scrutiny (not
saying they aren't scrutinized, just not to that extent).

2\. Despite common preconceptions about military members, exaggerated by
Hollywood and not a few knuckleheads, the majority of us are regular people.
We have families and a dog, and we don't like to kill people. We do it because
we believe it's our duty to keep you safe. Years later, we still cry about it.
It's a heavy burden. The X-Box controller doesn't change that.

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greggarious
This makes sense. Microsoft spent a lot of time researching the ergonomics of
these controllers, why replicate their user research?

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tantalor
> everything is controlled with a helicopter-style stick... It’s kind of
> clunky in your hand; it’s real heavy

Have we got an image of this? Side by side with the controller?

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JBlue42
I can't believe my tax dollars would be used for such an expensive thing! At
least go to the lowest bidder and get MadCatz ones!

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Aissen
Navya uses those in their autonomous shuttles for troubleshooting by an
operator to stop/steer the vehicle.

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liveoneggs
don't these things have microphones and components of questionable origins? I
agree that it's basically a good idea but I'd be a little worried about
embedded mics/etc from wherever living inside of nuclear subs.

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sytelus
XBox controllers are super inaccurate and have lot of random noise. They could
have used remote controllers for drones like FrSky and plugged it in as
joystick. It would cost $250 instead of $25 but, gosh, you are in $100M sub!

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gonzo41
Not for nothing this isn't uncommon, The CLU on a javelin missile uses a ps2
controller. Split to separate hands but when your training on it your like, I
remember this.

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beastman82
This makes an enormous amount of sense

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bschwindHN
Once they add these to jets I'll be able to use my battlefield multiplayer
history as a résumé :)

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HugoDaniel
Why not PS4 controllers ?

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Nuzzerino
How do you think that would go over with the sailors? "Government awards
military contract to foreign company."

~~~
HugoDaniel
ah! i was thinking it might had been related to usability... nice one thanks
:D

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rawoke083600
$38k for the current version ! No Way !

