
Obama likely to expand a foreign-student pipeline the high-tech industry loves - sargegood
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/11/20/obama-likely-to-expand-a-foreign-student-pipeline-the-high-tech-industry-loves/
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cryoshon
If Obama's drive for immigration reform uses the logic of "STEM SHORTAGE!!!"
as a basis for expanding OPT, it means that hyperbole has won, and we here at
HN will suffer lower wages and a more competitive job market as a result. I'm
not actually sure that this is what the rhetoric is going to look like, but
the rest of my comment assumes that it will look that way as it pertains to
the expansion of OPT.

There is no STEM shortage; tons and tons of STEM workers work outside their
field because they can't get a (typically very competitive) job in their
field. If there were a STEM shortage, STEM wages would be skyrocketing, which
they are not. Many people with PhDs in the sciences are underemployed and
underpaid.

More STEM workers means lower pressure for wages to rise, thus saving money
for companies in addition to allowing them to be more picky about who they
hire. Increasing the pool of STEM workers is an easy way to please the tech
companies (who appear to be coming into their own as political juggernauts)
and seeming to make progress on "immigration reform" while circumspectly
fucking over the employees of the most advanced sector of the economy in the
name of progress.

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LLWM
It's a bit sad that you see competition on a global scale as "being fucked
over". If someone else can do the same job just as well as you, you think
employers should be forced to hire you instead just because you happened to be
born in the right country? That's just selfishness that harms everyone else.

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rayiner
People are entitled to their self-interest, and it is in peoples' self-
interest to avoid the race to the bottom that results from globalization.
Furthermore, governments exist to serve their specific constituents, not to
hew to abstract humanist principles.

Also, even within the context of abstract humanist principles, immigration
isn't wholly positive. My family and I are immigrants to the U.S. It's been
great for us, not so great for the country we came from that sees all its
bright and ambitious people leave never to return.

~~~
LLWM
A race to the bottom means a race towards efficiency. This is a net benefit to
society. Sure, selfish people might stand in its way, and if you sympathize
with them, that's your choice, but don't pretend it's something admirable.

~~~
rayiner
"Efficiency" usually just means more of the wealth of society accumulating to
capital holders. Nothing admirable about that.

~~~
LLWM
Why not? The alternative isn't a more equal distribution of wealth, it's less
total wealth.

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djb_hackernews
My hunch is this is what 'immigration reform' is really all about behind
closed doors, expanding foreign worker visas for "high tech" professions. It
appears that is the whole basis behind Zuckerbergs fwd.us campaign.

If you are a tech company you are foolish to not take advantage of the OPT
program. Unfortunately it has a negative feedback loop on actually getting
enough qualified and trained citizens in to these positions. It basically
drives up the cost of such an education displacing citizens from the
classroom. However, from the tech industry point of view it's a positive
feedback loop.

One little anecdote on something I thought was pretty telling and a bit funny
was when I recently heard an interview with Joe Kennedy where a member of the
business community asked him about his thoughts on immigration reform. He gave
a pretty canned response about hard working people, family ties, deserving a
chance etc. Before he could finish the person asking the question chimed in
'...and what about H1Bs?" and it was as if somebody snapped their fingers and
Joe Kennedy stood up straight, changed to a more serious tone and replied very
quickly with 'Oh yes, we MUST expand the H1B program'.

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thisisdallas
So who exactly is this helping? Ok, I know it helps out foreign students, but
I am asking strictly from an American perspective. First and foremost, the
governments job is to serve the American people. How does this specific action
of Obama's immigration proposal help the American people as a whole?

It's a 100% possibility that I have this wrong but I see two groups who this
helps. The first group is foreigners who live in the US and the second group
is big businesses who can most likely hire lower wage workers.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for improving the STEM sectors in the US but I
just feel like it might be a little more useful to invest in our own schools
and our own workers instead of invest in foreigners living in the US. Can
someone explain what I am missing or what I don't understand?

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sidko
Without foreign born workers, half of Silicon Valley wouldn't have existed. Is
that a good enough reason?

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dpweb
No. The important question is not how many jobs there are, but how many - and
at what price - and how does that price translate into a standard of living in
the country where you live.

To protect US citizens there are laws in place. That however can be chipped
away piece by piece. If tech companies had their way that would end.

There is a real concern about the (at least perceived) decline in the US
standard of living for low/middle income folks, that is not necessarily anti-
immigrant. You can't deny, immigrants built the country. However, America is
going to have to deal with this problem of preserving the very ability of its
citizens to be upwardly mobile. I'm not sure how much of the fear is real, but
its out there.

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vj44
48 month OPT/STEM extension will be huge for international students here -
great move! Since OPT has few limitations and allows internationals to become
self-employed, hopefully more international students will end up on the
entrepreneurial path. And for those in "regular employment", more chances to
apply for H1B and more time to figure out other, more permanent options (if
needed). Lastly, hopefully, more smart graduates will decide to stay in this
country and contribute to the economy & innovation, instead of contributing
somewhere else. Win-win-win situation. Looking forward to the update tonight.

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irratable
The tech companies who lately focus on "diversity" should publish the number
of 20 - 40 old workers they have, versus 40 - 60 year old.

There is no need for tech companies to mine youthful, foreign, easily
exploited labor pools ("pipelines") when plenty of well trained, well
qualified, and seasoned professionals exist that they refuse to hire.

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leoc
That's a juicy bit of politics: give the tech industry its guest workers _and_
bail out the universities by shovelling more fuel onto the college bonfire,
both at the same time.

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bpodgursky
But will it be any easier for them to get permanently residency after? There's
no point in doubling the number of people going through college and working on
OPT if there's a hard cap on the number which can convert those to H-1Bs or
(eventually) into green cards.

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JamesBarney
I think it is obvious and we can all agree that this decision would help
foreign students, and American tech corporations. We can probably also agree
this decisions is similar to globalization in that it causes an increase in
global utility. But given that policy is usually measured against what utility
it provides for it's current citizens. One big open question in economics is
will this lead to an increase in the utility of current Americans. I think
this is the interesting question. Does the increase in talent from around the
world spill over enough to offset the reduction in wages from the increase in
labor supply?

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phkahler
Because US students under piles of debt need more job competition. Not.

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cryoshon
You're right, but I doubt this is even part of the decision making process.

It's unfortunate, but it looks as though the US government is eagerly trashing
the future of the citizenry for the sake of the wills of their political
donors.

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jfaucett
As a US citizen, this is awesome. If I understand this correctly it means
students from anywhere can apply for jobs while studying in the US and
continue working in the US after graduation. This just means better products,
better ideas, and more innovation you know those common things that spawn from
a more competitive marketplace. I just wish other countries would take up the
same initiative, for instance in Germany you still have to select german and
eu citizens over foreign borns.

Does anyone know of other countries where its very easy to move and start
working as a foreigner?

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waterlesscloud
Funny, isn't it, how all the other countries don't want those better products,
better ideas, and more innovation?

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dragonwriter
This is horrendously bad journalism. It is a "news" article making claims
about likely future events that cites only "those closely involved in the
immigration debate" \-- not, particularly, anyone who is, even anyone
_anonymously attributed in a way which suggests that they are_ , in any
position to know what the President is actually planning to do.

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newaccountfool
Would the world not be a better place if there was no borders at all? That
people from all over the world could work wherever they wanted to,
irrespective of where they were born?

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piratebroadcast
Fuck.

