
High doses of vitamin D rapidly reduce arterial stiffness - AndrewDucker
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180102114147.htm
======
yborg
I'm old enough to remember when the fad was taking supplemental Vitamin A and
E as 'antioxidants' to reduce cancer risk. Then long term studies in Sweden on
Vitamin A showed it actually increased risk, at least for lung cancer. I would
be hesitant to go all-in on Vitamin D loading until such studies have been
done here. There is a good reason why medicine is conservative - first, do no
harm.

~~~
sametmax
> There is a good reason why medicine is conservative

Let's be honest, medicine is not just conservative for this reason. It's also
because of inertia, politics, economics, stereotypes, and the fact people
don't want to take the blame if the new thing fail. But also because of
resources and human limitation.

I had an example recently in my life. I got malaria years ago because I lived
in Mali. The medias, all my friends, family and doctors told me 2 things:

\- you gotta take your anti malaria pills (nivaquine, lariam, malarone...) for
the whole trip cause there is no curative treatment for malaria

\- if you get malaria, it's for life

And surely, when I got back home with the parasite, I got hit with a malaria
episode from time to time, to remind me it was here. Not funny.

7 years later, I end up having diner with a scientist from the Pasteur
Institute in Paris (pretty much the biology equivalent of NASA, but in
France). He calmly explained to me that actually you don't have to take your
pills for the whole trip. Malarone is a curative drug, and you can just take
it when the first symptoms appear. Also, I don't have to keep having malaria
episodes for life: they have protocols, again based on simple Malarone, that
can get rid of the little bugger.

I took the number of a colleague of his, a tropical disease specialist, and
went to the institute. Surprise, everything is true. There is no mystery. No
secret.

The information is just there. Scientifically robust. And yet it doesn't reach
you.

So now you gotta wonder: what are the other thousands missing informations or
misinformations you get every day in medicine ?

And remember how many food facts fad you lived through. Remember that
companies spent a lot of money for stuff like "carots are good for sight",
"drink milk to grow up", etc. Remember that red meat is considered "Group 1,
carcinogenic to humans" by WHO and nobody is talking about it. Remember that
it took decades between asbestos being marked as deadly and any move to forbid
it.

We need to keep a healthy criticism about medicine. Doctors, after all, are
only human.

~~~
StavrosK
Is red meat really considered carcinogenic?

~~~
aviv
Depends on your definition of red meat - grass-fed or grain-fed? Two
completely different animals. Literally.

~~~
GordonS
I... don't think you know what 'literally' means?

~~~
alvah
He actually has a point, though it was poorly made. The Omega 3: Omega 6 ratio
of grass fed & grain fed beef are vastly different. If you subscribe to any of
the ancestral diet theories, the difference in ratios is enough to make grass
fed very good, and grain fed very bad.

~~~
GordonS
Do you know if the Omega 3:6 ratio have any effect on the carcinogenic
properties of read meat?

------
phyller
Here is a link to the actual paper:
[http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....](http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0188424)

They recommend 4,000 IUs of vitamin D as the maximum safe dose, not because
higher doses were found to be less helpful but because 4,000 was the most
helpful and also the highest amount they actually tested. It is possible (but
untested) that 6,000 and 8,000 IUs could have been even better.

However, it does appear that at 16 weeks both the groups getting 2,000 and
4,000 IUs of vitamin D leveled out at the same blood serum level of vitamin D.

~~~
ghaff
4,000 IUs isn't really an especially high dose. Standard Vitamin D supplements
that many doctors commonly recommend (especially in places where people don't
get a lot of sun for much of the year) are 2,000.

~~~
buttcoinslol
I take 4000 IUs a day on the 45th parallel from late September to April, 2000
IUs during the summer. More than one doctor has OKed this dose.

I was at 8-10 ng/ml a few years ago and now I take Vitamin D very seriously.

------
mtgx
_Proper_ supplementation (read: not what is currently recommended) of Vitamin
D was found to reduce _all-mortality_ causes (including cancer, diabetes,
heart attacks, etc) by as much as 50%-70%. To get to that level of 40-50 ng/ml
25(OH)D, you need around 8,000-12,000 IU per day (depending on body mass).

It was also found to reduce flu occurences by as much as 70%. This is starting
to look like a _super_ important vitamin, even for "healthy individuals that
work outside" \- let alone everyone else that stays all-day indoors.

It also seems to have a huge effect on sleeping well, as it's apparently what
the body needs to repair itself properly at night.

I highly recommend these videos:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pK0dccQ38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pK0dccQ38)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74F22bjBmqE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74F22bjBmqE)

Also, you should combine it with Vitamin K2, another hugely important vitamin
most of us are likely lacking, that works in conjunction with D:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/Supplements/comments/5lrqki/the_mos...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Supplements/comments/5lrqki/the_most_comprehensive_vitamin_d_guide_youll_ever/)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28768407](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28768407)

[https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-d/](https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-d/)

------
exhilaration
There was a long discussion about Vitamin D in general last month:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15867918](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15867918)

------
MilnerRoute
I just want to share an observation about articles like this. It's that I
never hear the same thing later from my doctor. Either doctors stick with
their old methods -- what they were taught in medical school -- or the online
information is a little premature. (One study finds one possible connection,
but further studies don't turn it into an actionable prescription regiment.)

~~~
BugsJustFindMe
Interesting. At least with respect to Vitamin D, my doctors have been
recommending supplementation for years.

~~~
jstarfish
Surely not at "high" doses though. There is an accepted safe amount that tends
to be proscribed.

~~~
gervase
My doctor prescribed me 10000 IUs/day, which seems to be pretty high based on
the values listed in the article. I had a D deficiency at the time, but he
suggested that I continue those doses as "preventative maintenance" in the
future, even after my levels returned to normal.

I assume that it's just a consequence of normal variation regarding (A) the
journals your doctor is reading and (B) how they're interpreting those
articles.

~~~
ovao
Interesting. Did you end up maintaining 10,000 IUs/day after your levels
normalized, and if so, how long have you been doing so?

------
Retric
Note this is only "young, overweight/obese, vitamin-deficient, but otherwise
still healthy African-Americans"

~~~
smitherfield
Thanks for pointing that out, there have been major issues with drawing
overly-broad conclusions based on studies pertaining to a specific
demographic, before studying the general population.

For example, omega-3 fish oil became one of the most popular supplements since
a 1970's Danish study showing it helped prevent heart attacks ... among the
Inuit, whom it turns out are the only group that produce the enzymes needed to
metabolize fish oil.[1]

That said this is far from the first or only study showing health benefits to
vitamin D supplementation.

[1] [https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/science/inuit-study-
adds-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/science/inuit-study-adds-twist-
to-omega-3-fatty-acids-health-story.html)

~~~
rrauenza
Thanks! Maybe this explains why it gives me a 24 hour stomach ache! (although
not all brands?!)

------
megaman22
I started taking pretty high dosages of Vitamin D about a month ago, after
seeing this item
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15867918](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15867918)).
It's really incredible how much better I've felt over that time. The impact on
my mood has been really remarkable - I was pissy and irritable, short-fused
and pessimistic. Nothing much else in my life has changed, but I'm feeling
much more even-keeled and relaxed since starting the Vitamin D supplements.

~~~
everybodyknows
Good anecdotal evidence. But how much sun exposure have you been getting over
that period? That is, total light reaching sub-dermal layer, net of sunscreen,
surface area exposed, and pigmentation either natural or result of sun-
tanning?

~~~
tathougies
Not the OP, but my vitamin d was also low, and was exacerbating my auto-immune
thyroiditis. I ended up needing 10k/day to maintain levels and keep the
antibodies in check. For me at least, no amount of sunshine will help. We live
in the north, and I have dark skin. I almost always wear shorts/short sleeves
and walk about two hours outside in the morning and afternoon (walk to and
from work). Never wear sunscreen, don't tan, etc. At a certain latitude, if
your ancestors were from the tropics, there's a point at which no amount of
sunshine will suffice.

I used an online 'calculator' (so can't vouch for its accuracy), but it
basically said that at my skin tone i needed about 2 - 4 hours of sunshine in
the summer months at my latitude and 16 hours + in the winter. This may be
possible in the summer, but there's not 16 hours of sun in the winter at all,
so there's no way this is going to work.

On the other hand, my wife is white, and gets much less sun exposure and wears
sunscreen, and her vitamin d level is noticeably higher when she gets sun.
Mine... not so much.

------
mrfusion
If this was true wouldn’t we see people in sunnier climates have less heart
disease?

~~~
ovao
This study's abstract seems to suggest that there may be a a geographic
correlation in addition to a general correlation to sun exposure and heart
disease:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8935479](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8935479)

------
sliverstorm
The canonical advice with vitamins is always that it's best to get them in
food, as part of a healthy diet.

The interesting thing here perhaps is that if you live above 37 degrees
latitude, there are very few ways to get vitamin D, mainly fish and fortified
foods.

Fortified foods are arguably not that different from supplements, and fish is
pricey, unpopular, and somewhat of a specialty food.

So, perhaps there really is an argument for vitamin D supplementation.
Although, at least for its cofactors, I'll be trying to get them from food.

------
owens99
Simple goal for 2018: take Vitamin D supplement every day

~~~
bdamm
I've set this goal for myself several times, particularly important because
I've been diagnosed with osteopenia at a young age (38). This has not
translated into fractures, so I haven't managed to figure out how to turn this
into a daily regimen (taking increased vitamin D) which would, one would
think, help.

Any ideas about how to turn this into a daily habit? Put vitamins by the front
door? Set an alarm on the phone? Supplements in the smoothie blend?

~~~
BoiledCabbage
Make it part of your routine. Put them in bathroom medicine cabinet and take
right before brushing your teeth at night. Or if you do regular breakfast,
take with breakfast.

Tie it to an activity you already do daily.

~~~
Tenhundfeld
While vitamin D can help with sleep overall, I've read that vitamin D can
temporarily interfere with melatonin production immediately after ingesting.
So you shouldn't take it at night, too close to bedtime.

Of course, I've also read many people take it at night with no negative
effects – and that, as a hormone, it absorbs more efficiently overnight in a
sleeping state.

So, this is probably one of things that affects people differently, but it's
just something to be cognizant of. If you take it a night and feel restless,
try switching to the morning.

I also have a close friend who gets severely constipated with most vitamin D.
It took her a lot of trial and error to find a brand that did not constipate
her, which I cannot remember right now.

~~~
adrianN
Gwern has done some self-experimentation and found Vitamin D to negatively
affect sleep
[https://www.gwern.net/zeo/Vitamin-D](https://www.gwern.net/zeo/Vitamin-D)

------
bproven
Probably the best approach is this:

\- Go get a blood test and find out what your current levels are. if you are
too busy to hit up your physician, blood tests can be be purchased online
without a doctor visit - After purchase, you just show up at Labcorp/Quest
location and get your blood drawn. Vit D tests are pretty cheap at around $50

\- If deficient, supplement with Vitamin D; 4000-5000 IU a day seems to be a
good start.

\- Get a follow-up blood test a few months later to confirm that the current
dosage is adequate. If it is great. If not, rinse and repeat as necessary...

Everyone is unique so I think this i sthe best approach. Also, IMO being (too)
afraid of the sun is one of the reasons this is such a problem in modern life.

------
mozumder
Is "arterial stiffness" the same as atherosclerosis?

~~~
agumonkey
maybe a preceeding stage before full on atherosclerosis, there are multiple
layers in arteries and a whole gradual process from lower elasticity,
stiffness, clogged ..

------
tw1010
Easy solutions and shortcuts seems to be the norm when it comes to advice. But
as usual with these things, the grown-up advice aught to be kept in mind;
remember to try all the low-hanging, boring, solutions first, like diet and
exersize, before you go on experimenting with stuff like high doses of this or
that substance. If willpower is the problem, tackle that instead. (There are
plenty of books on the subject.)

~~~
krrrh
Quite often people suffering from a specific nutritional deficiency or
cognitive imbalance can go for years beating themselves up over their
inability to get an exercise/salad/meditation habit on track, until they get
on a substance that ups their baseline condition enough that they can
establish these habits. I've seen this happen for people taking one of vitamin
D, methylfolate, magnesium, Adderall, or anti-depressants.

Your advice is correct for most people, but anyone who has made honest efforts
for years to pick these low-hanging fruits and failed consistently with a
shelf full of books on discipline to show for it, should also do their
research and try to find a doctor that leans towards an integrative approach
or is young and still curious, who will also explore your genetics, experiment
with medications, and order a wide-range of blood tests to see if anything is
out of range. It's important to monitor improvements and side effects, and
it's better to not do this yourself.

------
ilaksh
Because of the Vitamin D deficiency issue, if I am ever able to do the real
estate development I dream of, I am planning to include solar collectors with
fiber optics to distribute natural light indoors. I know the trend is just
lots of large windows which might be an option, but I believe that the fiber
optic distribution could be more effective and allow for a more energy
efficient home.

~~~
todd8
That probably won’t work. Vitamine D production is stimulated by UVB
wavelengths (270nm to 300nm). These wavelengths of light are very heavily
attenuated by fiber optics (because of scattering in the fibers). Sorry.

~~~
ilaksh
Your information is outdated. There are UV fiber optics now.

~~~
skosch
Neat! Do you have a rough idea how much they cost per kg?

------
delhanty
>Dong, an expert in vitamin D and a professor in the MCG Department of
Population Health Sciences, says about 15 minutes daily in the "young" sun --
between 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. -- but before your skin starts to get pink, is the
best source of vitamin D.

That's what works best for me! Mood and mobility improve!

~~~
eyeball
I just shine one of those UVB reptile light bulbs on myself for a few minutes
a day.

------
fpoling
I wonder why there was no control who where exposed to sun or solarium long
enough to get the same dose of D.

------
lerie82
How come it's never tests with regular people and regular doses?

------
_RPM
My Dr. told me take Vitamin D because of the winter.

~~~
DenisM
Bright light too? I can recommend a good lamp.

~~~
chimeracoder
> Bright light too? I can recommend a good lamp.

It's no longer recommended to use UV-B light as a source for Vitamin D,
because it increases your risk of skin cancer.

Instead, Vitamin D can be obtained from certain foods, though the number of
foods that contain Vitamin D naturally is quite small[0]. Hence why
supplements are often needed.

[0] Vitamin D is added to milk, though it doesn't occur in milk naturally. And
the quantities included in milk may not be sufficient for a lot of people.

~~~
comicjk
Light therapy is not about producing Vitamin D, it's about modifying circadian
rhythms using bright light, which people often don't get enough during the
winter. Generally, light therapy does not use UV.

[https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/light-
therapy/ab...](https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/light-
therapy/about/pac-20384604)

