
PhD or Not PhD: that is the question - yarapavan
http://matt-welsh.blogspot.com/2010/09/so-you-want-to-go-to-grad-school.html
======
mechanical_fish
This is a very fair view of the scene, and it all rings true. But do remember
that it is written by a professor.

Speaking as someone who has been seduced into academia on multiple occasions
by my friends who are professors: They are hopeless optimists. This is not
their fault. Indeed, it is a precondition for their existence: just as you
would not be surprised to find that most of the creatures sitting on top of a
high crag have wings and can fly, you should not be surprised that most
professors, and especially most tenured professors, are completely besotted
with their lifestyle and can barely conceive of anything else. Darwin has seen
to this. The academic environment is all about selection pressure.

For example, this essay is by a particularly self-aware and wry professor, so
he's able to joke that "getting a PhD costs you a house". But self-critics
don't last long if they go for the jugular, so he doesn't point out that, if
you wish to _continue_ doing research after your PhD, it's going to cost you
another house, and another: Postdocs pay better than graduate fellowships, but
still only half what industry pays, if that, and even less if you calculate
the _hourly_ rate. And then to go any further you will need to start writing
grants, and administering students, none of which is exactly research. Then
you probably won't get to keep your job writing grants because it's hard to
get the grants, and hard to get tenure... [1]

So, take this fellow's advice to heart, but be sure to also have a beer with a
_real_ cynic before spending fifteen years in pursuit of academic nirvana.

\---

[1] I never studied CS, so maybe the grass is greener over there and CS is
some kind of abundant academic paradise where grants flow like water. But I
kind of doubt it.

~~~
anonymousDan
One of the things I miss about academia is the ability to do whatever the hell
I wanted too outside of work. This allowed me take on some fairly lucrative
consulting jobs during the course of my PhD. Although I haven't looked too
hard, it seems to me that once you get into industry it is very difficult to
work on anything on the side without having to worry about things like IP
restrictions. I think in California it is illegal for companies to try and
restrict you from doing extra work outside contract hours, but from what I
gather it is hard to find companies anywhere else that will agree to such a
thing (well at least here in the UK). Actually it is one of my pet theories
that this law is a significant contributing factor to the number of companies
started in Silicon Valley. I'd be interested in hearing about any experiences
people have had in avoiding such restrictions on after hours work, especially
in the UK.

------
alabut
" _The only reason to do a PhD is because you love doing research._ "

Can't stress this enough. A lot of people do grad school just because they
didn't like a string of jobs they had, think they need more training to switch
to a certain specialty, or even just because they're still basically searching
for what they want to do in life. Those are all excellent questions to ask
yourself before taking another job, and also excellent ways to go into grad
school with exactly the wrong attitude and become a huge dropout risk.

I got lucky and learned all this without having to go to grad school. My first
job out of college was at my college because I turned my undergrad job into a
fulltime role and the grad students were the only other people on that part of
campus that were close to my age. The biggest difference between the ones that
enjoyed the experience and those that _didn't even make it to the end_ was
that the dropouts still didn't know exactly what they wanted to do in life, so
they thought they'd try research only to get chewed up and spat out by tenure-
starved associate professors.

------
sofal
There is another approach to a PhD that this article did not mention. A couple
of my friends are doing a PhD with the aim to be professors at much lower
ranked universities where the research pressure isn't so high and the emphasis
is more on teaching. They want the easier, more relaxed life that it offers.

One of them is more interested in teaching, and he wants to have the relaxed
atmosphere of a lower university so that he can spend his free time (including
whole summers) on his music, which is his true passion. The other one is a
pretty involved family man, and he wants a laid back, relaxed job with some
academic freedom to do interesting things and the ability to spend a lot more
time with his family than a normal job would offer.

They're both midwestern folk, and are happy living in relatively rural areas
in states that I suspect most HN users wouldn't dream of living in.

For some reason, the high powered paper-excreting types tend to look down on
this approach or at the very least completely overlook it. I don't quite
understand why.

~~~
elviejo
Indeed this is a lovely route. Maybe I don't want to be in the cutting edge.
But I want to be a great teacher. Someone that disseminates knowledge in a way
that makes sense for the students. Someone that is influential en students
lives and maybe those students will go and become great researchers.

So yes being "just" a great teacher is a worthy goal on its own.

Even if you don't discover anything new.

~~~
dkarl
I completely agree and am thankful for the professors who take their teaching
job seriously. To look at it from the opposite perspective, I dropped out of
(a very good, top five in my field) grad school because I realized I wasn't
brilliant and realized if I entered an academic career I would basically be a
teacher. And I suck at teaching. And I had little interest in getting better.

I had other reasons for dropping out and have sometimes considered the above
to be just a bad justification for a bad decision, but more and more I think
that whatever my true reasons, it was a valid reason and a good decision. It
would have weighed me down knowing that I was actually pretty bad at my
primary productive role in society.

------
mawhidby
I'm not really sure why the OP says that the Master's has more coursework than
the PhD. At least in my Master's program at UMD, the PhDs have to take the
same amount of classes as the Master's students. The only difference is that
in the Master's, after you're done with your classes, you either write a
thesis or a scholarly paper (for non-thesis based), and you're done. If you're
a PhD student, you finish your classes, then you spend the next few years
working on research towards your dissertation.

He might be referring to more work for an MS Comps, which is the non-thesis
Master's. Instead of writing a thesis (which counts as 6 credit hours) you
have to take 30 credit hours worth of classes, and half of those classes must
be "MS Comps," where at least 50% of your grade in a class (at least here at
UMD) must come from exams. I am doing a thesis-based Master's, so I guess you
could say I am able to take all my classes just as a PhD student would - in
that in most classes there is a research project due at the end of the
semester on a topic of your choosing. This allows you to shape the course to
your liking and interests.

For me, being a Master's student has afforded me just as many research
opportunities as a PhD student; I just won't be here as long.

~~~
blacksmythe
He means that the students finish up their coursework during their Masters
program, so the PhD work is usually entirely research. Thus during your
Masters program, you frequently don't get a good idea at all of how the PhD
program is.

~~~
mawhidby
I'm not so sure that's what he means. If you look in the comments, the OP says
"Ah yes. I should have pointed out that this article only applies to PhD
programs in the US (in Computer Science). ... A UK PhD, for example, is rarely
seen as equivalent to a US-based PhD, precisely because it is so short and
does not typically involve coursework."

For the universities I applied to, you are still required to take classes in
the PhD program. Even if you already have your Master's and decide to go for a
PhD at another university, your class credits may not transfer (in fact, I was
told at a graduate visit day at UMD that they don't accept credit from MS
programs other than their own), so you might even have to do the required
coursework all over again while going for your PhD.

Personally, I was able to find a graduate research assistantship my first
semester here at UMD, whereas most of the incoming PhD students are in
teaching assistantships. I feel like I'm getting a good taste of how
research/the PhD program.

~~~
blacksmythe

      >> I was told at a graduate visit day at UMD that they don't accept credit from MS programs other than their own

I don't know how common this is.

I know lots of people (probably most) that get their Master's at a different
place than their BS, but don't know any that got a PhD at a different place
than their Master's - maybe because as you say the barriers to moving are too
high. People that aren't happy where they got their Master's don't get a PhD
at all.

(My experience is with the U.S. system)

------
baddspellar
Almost 20 years ago, I went back and earned my PhD in computer engineering
after serving a 4 year military commitment I incurred for my ROTC scholarship.

A few things I should point out: 1) You _can_ finish in 4 years. I did. You
just have to be organized and not allow your advisor define your pace. I
finished ahead of some of my undergrad peers who went straight through. They
waited for their advisors to tell them when they were ready. 2) I did my PhD
mainly because I wanted the challenge. Life isn't just about money. I had fun
doing it, I learned a lot about myself and my field, and I'd do it again. 3)
The payoff isn't just the credential. Having done it, I am no longer
intimidated by things I don't know how to do. 4) This quote is silly: "Once
you have a PhD -- and even during the process of getting one -- you are able
to be your own boss. Rather than working on someone else's vision, you are the
one to define the vision" You don't need a PhD to be your own boss, and
getting a PhD is not a ticket to being your own boss. That quote leads me to
think the author doesn't have much of a clue about the world outside academia.

------
thisisnotmyname
"If you are serious about going to grad school, I do not recommend [working in
industry "for a year or two" and then appling to grad school "later."]"

This suprised me. It is what I did, as well as several other people in my
year. The difference in maturity and competency between the people who have
worked in industry and those who haven't is night and day. In my experience,
people who have spent time in industry are _much_ stronger PhD candidates.

~~~
yummyfajitas
That might be true, but it's irrelevant. The right question to ask is, "what
will make me better off after 7 years? 2 years exp -> PhD or PhD -> 2 years
exp?"

I suspect PhD -> work is better, since the 2 years of industry experience will
probably be at a higher level.

~~~
gaius
It really depends on the industry. There are two factors at work, speaking as
an interviewer. Experience trumps everything, really. You will learn more
about being a real, working programmer in one year of doing it than in 5 years
of study. Remember that we're not here to _write code_ , we're here to solve
problems using code as a tool. An important tool, sure, but there is more to
it than that.

Secondly a PhD is really an apprenticeship to be an academic. A PhD who is not
on that track needs to have a good story as to why.

Starting in industry after a PhD doesn't put you any higher on the ladder than
a fresh BSc graduate.

~~~
dkarl
_Starting in industry after a PhD doesn't put you any higher on the ladder
than a fresh BSc graduate._

Where you enter the industrial career ladder depends mostly on the kind of
experience you would get in industry, but you can get that kind of experience
in a PhD program, too, possibly much faster. If you work on a large software
project, collaborate with other people on software projects, plan and execute
programming tasks, make presentations, and teach undergrads, you'll be hired
well above the level a good fresh graduate would. Your initial position will
reflect some conservative doubt about the quality of your experience and how
well you will adapt to the "real world," as we rather unfairly like to put it
;-) but it will still be a significantly higher and better-paid position than
a fresh grad would get, and you'll be prepared to move up quickly to a senior
position. Of course, the depth of knowledge you obtained in your specialty
will mean nothing, and your research skills will mean nothing to the people
who hire you, but your ability to organize yourself, think methodically, and
execute long-term projects will separate you from your competition and make
you an obvious candidate for quick promotion.

On the other hand, if all you learn about in grad school is your research
topic, and you manage to get by without developing any of the skills I
mentioned above, you will indeed be starting from square one, in the same
position as a 22-year-old except with less energy and less time before you
die.

------
jules
On masters vs PhD: here in the Netherlands you have to do Bachelor -> Master
-> PhD. I don't think it's at all common to skip masters and go straight to
PhD. And pretty much anyone who completes bachelor continues with master.

~~~
gaius
Some UK courses now are 4 year MEng vs 3 year BEng + optional 1 year MSc (FWIW
I started on the former and ended up doing the latter for various reasons).

~~~
arethuza
In Scotland there used to be 5 year MEng courses - very popular starting
points for PhDs.

------
sz
Is it really as miserable as PhD Comics makes it seem?

~~~
mechanical_fish
Not necessarily for any particular person. So much depends on your personality
and that of your adviser, coworkers, and other prominent folks in the field.

But all the bad things happen to _someone_ , often one of your friends. For a
Ph.D. holder reading PhD Comics is an exercise in nodding with recognition.

And I haven't read all that much PhD Comics so I don't know if it plumbs the
real depths. Do characters in the comic become suicidally depressed? Do
professors drive talented eighth-year students to drop out by making crazy
demands on their time? Do students find themselves drafted as poorly paid, no-
equity employees at their adviser's startup company? I saw all of that happen
to one friend or another in the real world.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_Do professors drive talented eighth-year students to drop out by making crazy
demands on their time?_

This is a pretty rare occurrence. The talented eighth year student, I mean,
not the professor making crazy demands on time.

Another very common occurrence, mostly absent from PhD Comics, is a professor
failing to kick out an untalented/unmotivated student in their second or third
year. The result is that the student wastes 5 more years in the fruitless
pursuit of a PhD, eventually dropping out due to neglect by their adviser.

Getting to a tenured professorship is a tournament. Many apply, but only a
select few will win. The problem is that very often, no one tells you when you
were eliminated. They just let you carry on as if you still have a chance.

~~~
mechanical_fish
I absolutely agree: The hardest thing in academia is to get honest feedback.
Partly because telling academics that they are not going to succeed is like
kicking puppies, but more because of the conflicts of interest: To succeed as
a prof you _need_ to attract good students, and a prof with a reputation for
judging students harshly might have trouble recruiting. Academic adviser is
one hell of a job: You must advocate passionately for your students, and you
must also correct them, and you must motivate them, but you should give them
honest advice...

------
gaius
Interesting what he says about US vs UK PhDs, given that Cambridge has just
overtaken Harvard in the world rankings.

~~~
imurray
I recommend the anonymous comment starting: _It's unfair to characterize a UK
PhD as "a good US Master's thesis"..._ [http://matt-
welsh.blogspot.com/2010/09/so-you-want-to-go-to-...](http://matt-
welsh.blogspot.com/2010/09/so-you-want-to-go-to-grad-
school.html?showComment=1284106457670#c5898977344578639248) — it's pretty fair
and accurate.

~~~
gaius
The thing with the UK system is we specialize a lot earlier. A 16 when you
choose your A-levels you are already making choices, then you go to university
to focus on one subject, there's no "choosing your major" after a year or two.
And it's not even the case that the US system produces noticeably better
generalists; UK people just pick that up as they go.

~~~
imurray
That's true, but as you say UK students aren't necessarily that tied down. I
moved (in the UK) from a physics undergrad to research in machine learning and
statistics. This sort of move is common.

------
rakkhi
Good article, nice balanced view of both sides.

I have always had on my someday list to do a PHD in developing a quantitative
model for information security risk using power laws because I believe it is
something that is badly needed and something I am passionate about. I started
to explore the problem here: [http://rakkhi.blogspot.com/2010/07/security-
return-on-invest...](http://rakkhi.blogspot.com/2010/07/security-return-on-
investment-roi.html)

Could I do this online while doing my full time job? What are some
universities that are quite cost effective and would support this type of
online / distance learning model for a PHD?

~~~
radekstepan
Northcentral University does an online PhD in CS for 27k GBP. You could also
talk to folks at Open University. They have a wide range of MPhil and PhD
interests and might advise you. And yes, you can do a PhD and work at the same
time. Depends what motivates you and makes you happy. If you cannot wait to be
productive and find things out, the sky is the limit. Just watch out for burn
out...

~~~
rakkhi
Thanks for that. 27k still a decent chunk of money - wonder what my return on
investment will be for that.

Think its going to stay on my someday list for now, who knows if by software
as a service business does well I can focus on a PHD full time while the money
still keeps coming in

------
mkramlich
I've never seen the appeal of grad school CS. I love programming, making
money, learning, creating, building, reading and writing, but I can do _all_
of these things outside of grad school. And do them much cheaper and faster
and with greater flexibility. I can even try to push the state of the field
forward, if I wished. (Personally, I don't care about this aspect.)

------
c00p3r
No effort is ever lost. (The saying of an ancient Buddhist teacher).

~~~
pjscott
...Though some effort is more valuable than other effort. "Success or failure"
is usually a false dichotomy.

