
US plans to strip H1B immigrants' spouses of work permits - networkimprov
http://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Trump-administration-begins-effort-to-strip-work-13634442.php
======
makecheck
In a country where even citizen couples can need two jobs, _each_ , just to
survive, it is frustrating that immigrants are still expected to just somehow
pull it together. Oh, and all the immigrant-heavy jobs seem to be in very
expensive areas, at least for tech.

Here’s a good yardstick for citizens: for any given immigrant policy X (or
heck, any policy X on any subject), _would you want to live that way_? If
“no”, the policy is Wrong. Period.

These policies also keep trying to restrict immigrants without paying any
attention to the benefits that companies receive, and indeed that citizens
receive, when there are immigrants. First, the basic one: more people = more
customers to buy stuff in your local economy, broader tax base, etc. Second,
sometimes the entire _presence_ of a site is based on filling a certain
minimum number of jobs. A site with 1000 people that has 300 immigrants is not
“300 stolen American jobs”, it’s +700 jobs that wouldn’t have otherwise
existed for citizens; or, it’s a site that wouldn’t be able to do as much
otherwise, possibly causing the entire company to fail in some way that ends
up costing U.S. jobs all over the place, even at other sites.

Policies should never be “death by 1000 cuts”, either. Politicians keep
finding ways to make things that they don’t like unnecessarily hard, just
because they haven’t found a way to kill them off entirely. Well, frankly,
that kind of thing is crap.

~~~
maratd
The title on the article is wrong. H1B workers aren't immigrants and using
that word in this context is wrong.

H1B is a visa. They are visitors.

That being said, visitors should be able to work and so should their relations
if they are allowed to visit as well. One shouldn't need the blessings of the
federal government to earn a living.

~~~
rmk
H1B is classified as a dual-intent visa; as such it explicitly acknowledges
that people who obtain this visa may have be allowed to immigrate into the
country subject to certain conditions.

[http://www.americanlaw.com/dintent.html](http://www.americanlaw.com/dintent.html)

~~~
maratd
I am aware, but dual intent means just that. Until they file for a green card,
their intent isn't known and calling them immigrants is wrong. They are not
immigrating. Although they may, if they choose to.

~~~
belltaco
The rule that the article talks about is only valid for folks that have
already filed for green cards(thus expressing intent to immigrate) and been on
work visa for 6 years+. They would be immigrants if not for the extremely long
wait list.

~~~
pandaman
This "wait list" is created by the law. Congress has set the number of
immigrant visas ("green cards") to be issued each year. Since there are more
people than visas available - some people are not getting them and, thus, do
not become immigrants. It's not some kind of bureaucratic snafu with the
paperwork stuck in some desk somewhere - this is by law. So they would be
immigrants only if the law was different somehow.

------
belltaco
According to the current queue times, many of these people will die of old age
before being able to legally work and their spouse getting a green card.

This rule only applied after waiting six years in the green card queue. Is 90k
folks in the entire US really that high when fields like Computer Security
have 0% unemployment? This might end up encouraging offshoring.

Country based discrimination at it's finest.

Born in the wrong countries(China/India) = 70 years waiting for a green card
and dying before your spouse can legally work.

Born in the right countries = Green card in 7 months and being able to work
instantly.

~~~
briandear
The key thing however is that the H1B is a non-immigrant, temporary worker
visa. Expecting wine from water doesn't engender much sympathy. Using H1B as a
pathway to a green card is not any different than expecting to convert an EU
tourist visa into a work permit. The long waiting times for a green card are a
symptom of expecting an immigrant outcome for a non-immigrant visa.

If people want to immigrate, then isn't the correct choice to obtain an
immigrant visa?[1]

An H1B is a non immigrant visa[2]:

"Temporary worker visas are for persons who want to enter the United States
for employment lasting a fixed period of time, and are not considered
permanent or indefinite."

So I'm confused. How is it some kind of tragedy when the visa under which you
are working doesn't provide a quick path to a green card? Isn't the visa doing
exactly as advertised? Furthermore, providing the H1B spouse with a work
permit -- doesn't that mean that the spouse can work in a non-shortage
occupation without restriction? Doesn't that necessarily mean that the spouse
is able to compete with Americans and permanent residents for jobs that are
not hard-to-fill? Basically 1 work visa provides 2 jobs? That doesn't seem
like the intent of the H1B program which is to provide temporary workers of
high ability to fill specialized jobs for which there are verifiable
shortages. It certainly isn't designed to be a recruiting tool for big tech:
"Come work for us and your spouse can get a job too! The salary is lower than
an equally qualified American, but since your spouse gets to work too, you'll
have enough money to live in San Jose and maybe one day, you might even get a
green card!" That seems to be the promise the H1B crowd is expecting.

I'm not opposed to immigration -- but H1B isn't about immigration; it's about
filling otherwise unfilled jobs in specialty occupations for which there
aren't enough qualified Americans. If the sole purpose is to fill shortages,
then providing the spouse with a free-riding right to work in any occupation
(not shortage areas) is not consistent with the purpose. If H1Bs can't afford
to have a non-working spouse, then they ought not accept the jobs at the
salaries offered. What's happening now is that the working spouse's job is
actually a subsidy to compensate for an H1B wage that is lower than it should
be. That lower H1B wage is then being used to displace American workers.[3]

[1] [https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-
visas/immigrat...](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-
visas/immigrate/employment-based-immigrant-visas.html) [2]
[https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-
visas/employme...](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-
visas/employment/temporary-worker-visas.html) [3]
[https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-
layoff...](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-
disney-train-foreign-replacements.html)

~~~
belltaco
H1B is a dual intent visa.

>So I'm confused. How is it some kind of tragedy when the visa under which you
are working doesn't provide a quick path to a green card? Isn't the visa doing
exactly as advertised? Furthermore, providing the H1B spouse with a work
permit -- doesn't that mean that the spouse can work in a non-shortage
occupation without restriction? Doesn't that necessarily mean that the spouse
is able to compete with Americans and permanent residents for jobs that are
not hard-to-fill? Basically 1 work visa provides 2 jobs? That doesn't seem
like the intent of the H1B program which is to provide temporary workers of
high ability to fill specialized jobs for which there are verifiable
shortages. It certainly isn't designed to be a recruiting tool for big tech:
"Come work for us and your spouse can get a job too! The salary is lower than
an equally qualified American, but since your spouse gets to work too, you'll
have enough money to live in San Jose and maybe one day, you might even get a
green card!" That seems to be the promise the H1B crowd is expecting.

The problem is that everything you wrote currently applies to only two or
three countries. For H1B from all other countries, H1B is a pathway to green
card in as low as 7 months upon which their spouse gets a green card and work
authorization. How is that fair?

If H1B is all what you claim it is, why are these people getting green cards
and work authorization?

~~~
masonic

      How is that fair?
    

In the case of those three countries, what is _their_ immigration policy
toward incoming work migrants? How many foreigners (especially Americans) has
each onboarded in the past decade compared to the USA?

"Fair" goes both ways.

------
duxup
I wish they'd just limit H1B's to a salary of say 100k or more or something so
that the whole concept of "can't find enough people here" might actually
apply.

That way we'd see less abuse as far as some really low level work just being
imported for cheaper. At one point you could search active H1B jobs on a
government site somewhere, I found what looked like basic customer service
positions being filled for pretty low wages. I really doubt they couldn't find
someone to do the job, just they didn't find them willing to work for cheap /
tethered to the company via an H1B...

~~~
porpoisely
I think the H1B should be ended entirely. What incentive is there for
corporations and the government to invest in its own people when they can just
import workers. Not only that, it is unfair to others countries who lose
workers. If these employees are so valuable then isn't almost evil to steal
them from poor underdeveloped countries.

The idea that a nation of 350 million people can't supply the workers needed
for the US economy is nonsense. What it really means is that corporations want
to use foreign workers to cap wages. Or it could be that corporations and
governments haven't done a good job developing the work force they needed.
That's their problem, not the american people.

I can see a temporary workers program being useful after a catastrophic event
like a world war where millions of your people are killed and you need to
rebuild. But in peacetime, it's not needed.

~~~
riantogo
Historically US and its economy has benefited tremendously from immigration.
In the modern world it continues to be a big edge. Anti-immigration mindset is
also anti-American mindset. How about we revoke the citizenship of folks with
such mindset and make way for a prosperous nation? Maybe we could let them cut
in front of the line to earn back their citizenship with hard work after
catastrophic events. I’m of course just using a far fetched example to make a
point.

~~~
porpoisely
Firstly, you are repeating propaganda you've heard in the media that simply
isn't true. From the founders til today, the US has been highly anti-
immigration. Secondly, population growth may have been great for the US
economy, but it has also been terrible for average american workers and
minorities ( especially blacks and native americans ). Thirdly, we benefited
far more economically from war, conquest, slavery, genocide, expansion and
resources than from immigration. Just because something is good for the
economy doesn't mean it's good or moral. And just because something was good
in the past doesn't mean it is good today.

Having said that, I'm actually for immigration. But H-1B isn't immigration, no
more than human trafficking is immigration.

Immigrants, like Jerry Yang and Sergei Brin, can start and own businesses. Do
you know what H-1B visa holders are forbidden to do? They can't start or own
businesses. Interesting huh? I laugh whenever pro-H-1B visas try to lie about
how H-1B visas is the reason why Yahoo and Google exists. When H-1B explicitly
prevent you from starting businesses. Had Yang and Brin be H-1B visa holders
rather than being actual immigrant americans, they would not have been able to
create yahoo and google.

So the H-1B visa was created so that foreign workers can compete against
american workers, but not against american business owners. Isn't that great
for business owners?

If you are for immigration, workers rights and plain fairness, then you'd be
against H-1B visas because it's purely exploitation by billionaires so that
billionaires can profit.

Why not do away with H-1B visas and shift it to real immigration ( which I
support ) so that they have actual rights and can start businesses themselves
and create jobs?

How about a non-exploitive and fair immigration policy rather than a
exploitive non-immigration visa like H-1B? How about we let these foreign
workers compete against both the billionaire owners and the workers? Why
protect billionaires from competition and subject stressed american workers
with more competition?

~~~
riantogo
There are big gaps in your understanding of what H1B is (it is dual intent).
Most folks on that visa go on to become greencard holders and citizens.
Several of them go on to create jobs (directly or indirectly).

And it is not like H1Bs are handed out like candy. There are caps, lottery,
wage requirements, 6 months of advertising etc. (sure there is abuse like with
anything else which should be addressed).

Also ironic that you come to a thread discussing how things like these rip
apart families (and work against women) and try to take a higher moral
position.

Your stand of, "I support immigration" doesn't sound sincere because you seem
to imply that if we reclassify H1B to immigration-visa you will suddenly be
supportive of it.

------
Causality1
I've had too many friends be forced to spend their last two weeks on the job
training their H1B replacements. I'd be happy if the H1B program was done away
with entirely. The idea you can't find enough employees in a country of 326
million people is a joke.

~~~
dsl
Cisco is a really good example of this. They actually ran afoul of anti-
discrimination laws for explicitly rejecting American born workers.

[https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/21/h-1b-visa-reliant-
cis...](https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/21/h-1b-visa-reliant-cisco-
secured-visas-for-foreign-workers-instead-of-hiring-u-s-citizens-report/)

~~~
masonic
Same with IBM. And Disney. And UC.

------
thrill
Statements from the article such as "Rand pointed out that, only families
already approved for green cards qualify for the work visa, meaning the
government has already determined there are no Americans who could be working
the high-skilled job" make me question the entire program. Really, " _no_
_Americans_ "?, What rocket science project are they working on? Or did they
leave out "at the wages offered" part?

~~~
siddarthd2919
The employer has to post the job requirement and try multiple recruitment
channels for 30 days. Only if they cant find another candidate, can they file
for Perm. So that specific "Rocket Science project" didnt have any qualified
american apply for it. This is a good article to explain the whole process -
[https://www.usavisanow.com/perm/](https://www.usavisanow.com/perm/)

~~~
wavefunction
When I stop getting South-Asian recruiters bombarding me on LinkedIn asking if
I want to work a 1 month contract in Pittsburgh writing PHP for $16 an hour
despite living in Texas then I will agree the situation has been straightened
out. There are fast-food places offering $15 an hour.

Until then the system is being abused and it's American labor that's losing
out, followed by people being abused by the H1B racket. If they want to pay
someone $x to do some job then hire them in their home country and outsource
it. Or offer the visa to the worker. It's much more preferable for these firms
to abuse the system and their "placements" until it's fixed though.

------
prudhvis
Even with the best estimates for people born in India, the Green Card wait
times are at least 10+ years to 120 years. What are the spouses of such people
ought to do?.

There seems to be no interest in fixing the root cause of the problem. The
only partial fix for the problem is to let the spouses of approved GC
petitioners work. But, this administration is bent on removing those
provisions, without providing a fix for the problem in the first place.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Even with the best estimates for people born in India, the Green Card wait
> times are at least 10+ years to 120 years.

10 years is the length of the current backlog for Employment 2nd, 3rd, and
“Other Workers" preference visa from India, but only two years for Employment
1st Preference,.and Employment 4th preference is current.

> What are the spouses of such people ought to do?

In principal:

(1) Come to the US but not work, or

(2) Remain in India, to which the H-1B recipient, as a nonimmigrant, will
return.

> There seems to be no interest in fixing the root cause of the problem.

Do you mean the existence of the H-1B in the first place, or some other “root
cause”.

~~~
theshadowmonkey
> 10 years is the length of the current backlog for Employment 2nd, 3rd, and
> “Other Workers" preference visa from India, but only two years for
> Employment 1st Preference,.and Employment 4th preference is current.

Have you looked at what's required to get a first preference greencard? 99%
probably dont qualify unless you abuse it with companies like CTS or
Accenture.

> (1) Come to the US but not work, or

What do spouses with advanced degrees and prior work experience do? With H1B
lottery, this was a decent outlet when you have stayed here already for a few
years.

> (2) Remain in India, to which the H-1B recipient, as a nonimmigrant, will
> return.

You suggest stay away from your wife and family when you're just married or
have young kids?

~~~
dragonwriter
> Have you looked at what's required to get a first preference greencard?

I was clarifying the backlog statement, not recommending a method of bypassing
it.

> What do spouses with advanced degrees and prior work experience do?

The same as other spouses.

> You suggest stay away from your wife

No, I suggest nothing; those are the options under the law in the absence of
the H-4 EAD.

More bluntly, the entire point of the policy change is clearly to discourage
H-1B applications, especially from countries like India and China, so
complaining that it doesn't leave attractive options for the spouses impacted
is pointing out that it is working as designed. What the spouse is really
supposed to do, in the eyes of those crafting the policy, is prevail upon
their partner not to seek an H-1B in the first place.

The mechanism may be a bit more subtle than closing border crossings and
firing tear gas across the border to turn away people attempting to exercise
their legal right to apply for asylum, but the _intent_ is the same: to make
clear that the affected people _are not welcome in the US_ , at least by the
present administration.

------
lbacaj
No matter where you are on the politics of all this our immigration system is
incredibly broken.

There are so many “work arounds” or “hacks”, if you prefer, placed precisely
because the system is so badly broken. Whether it’s DACA, or this, or the many
other things put in place and intended to help families these are all hacks
around a fundamentally broken law system.

No one seems to have the courage to fix it and the politics are now so
devisive that the state things are in is incredibly sad and frankly inhuman in
many cases.

~~~
davidf18
The H1-B Visa was abused, intended only for cases where there are absolutely
no Americans with the qualifications that can fill that job.

A number of politicians are effectively "bribed" by large firms to attempt to
increase the H1-B Visa quota (see Gang of Eight Immigration). My own state sen
Schumer, has a daughter that works for Facebook and it is no secret that
Facebook wants to increase the number of H1-B Visas.

Fixing immigration is comparatively easy. 1\. Get rid of H1-B Visa abuse. The
reality is that there should be few H1-B Visas given out because there are in
fact Americans that can do most of the jobs. H1-B Visas should only be given
out at salaries 1.5 times those of Americans, to incentivize the hiring of
Americans and minimizing H1-B Visa abuse.

2\. Force the implementation of eVerify with massive fines for employers that
don't use it.

3\. Obama broke the law by not having Congress pass the DACA legislation. It
appears that Congress doesn't want to pass it so they should return to their
native countries.

Remember, in all of these programs of Visa abuse, or the hiring of illegal
aliens, takes jobs (and in the case of DACA) university spots from US Citizens
and those who are living here legally.

Thus, the system is not broken. Just enforce existing laws such as eVerify
with massive fines for abuse, get rid of H1-B Visa abuse, get rid of H4 Visas
which Congress never passed in the first place, get rid of DACA, have them
apply and wait in line like everyone else that wants to live here.

------
martin1975
I was an H1-B for a couple of years many years ago, I don't remember spouses
(H-4) having the ability to work back then. If this passes, it would be
reverting to how it was for the longest time.

~~~
belltaco
>If this passes, it would be reverting to how it was for the longest time.

Not really. The system wasn't created for wait times of upto 120 years,
someone waiting a few years for their spouse to get a green card like in the
past is different from now waiting for 70 years and actually die before being
able to work. How is that reverting to what it was?

Only people from certain countries are affected by this, because the 7% visa
per country cap is enforced the same for both Vatican City with half a million
population[edit: 1000 population] and for China and India with more than a
billion population each.

Also, the H4 work authorization only applies after the worker has been working
on a H1B for more than 6 years.I am assuming you were never qualified for that
when you were on a work visa since you presumably got a green card much
faster.

~~~
dragonwriter
> The system wasn't created for wait times of upto 120 years,

H-1B wasn't crested as an immigrant visa, either, though it allows immigration
without exiting. It was envisioned and sold ad primarily a way to temporarily
fill transitory needs.

> Only people from certain countries are affected by this, because the 7% visa
> per country cap is enforced the same for both Vatican City with half a
> million population[edit: 1000 population] and for China and India with more
> than a billion population each.

Population is only loosely correlated with the issue, it's not about visa
demand; in many cases (basically, all the family-based categories) the
backlogs are worse from Mexico and/or the Philippines than India or China.

~~~
belltaco
>Population is only loosely correlated with the issue, it's not about visa
demand; in many cases (basically, all the family-based categories) the
backlogs are worse from Mexico and/or the Philippines than India or China.

Population is definitely part of the issue, with people from smaller countries
getting a green card in 7 months vs. 70 years for the biggest ones.

>in many cases (basically, all the family-based categories) the backlogs are
worse from Mexico and/or the Philippines than India or China.

That's irrelevant because those people in family based backlogs are not
legally present in the US fulltime, so the pain for them is much less compared
to people on work visas and their spouses who are not able to work.

People in family based queues can still work because they're in their home
country.

>H-1B wasn't crested as an immigrant visa, either, though it allows
immigration without exiting. It was envisioned and sold ad primarily a way to
temporarily fill transitory needs.

I was talking about the work green card system. Also H1B is a dual intent
visa. If it was designated as a temporary transitory visa then it should not
qualify for green cards.

~~~
pandaman
H1B does not qualify you for green card. "Dual intent" means the _applicant_
can obtain the visa even with immigration intent. For all non-immigrant visas
the immigration intent is assumed and the applicant must prove the lack of
thereof in order to obtain most of them. The acceptable proofs are strong ties
to the home country such as family, job, realty etc. Work visa applicants
generally cannot provide such proof since their job is in the US and they take
their family with them on dependant visas so the DoS just made this "dual
intent" doctrine to be able to issue such visas.

Perpetuating the myth that H1B somehow qualifies you for greencard is only
harming people who sign up for H1B and suffer abuse in hope they are on the
way to greencard. Greencards are immigrant visas and obtaining one does not
require or benefit in any way from a non-immigrant visa of any kind or even
presence in the country. If you are truly an indispensable worker, likes of
which could not be found in the US, you could just stay in the home country or
any other country where you like and wait for the greencard.

------
TomMckenny
Picking at the program by brutalizing people here and there is unconscionable.
Put everyone out of their misery, stop trying to predict winners and losers
and just end the program.

The normal immigration processes served the country well for generations. The
new policy of catering to particular industries by creating second class
citizens is never going to be fair to anyone because it was never designed to
be.

------
mmmeff
As a US citizen, I both agree with returning to a more explicit work-permit
system yet apologize for our terrible immigration system.

~~~
mysterydip
unfortunately there's vested interests, corporate and political, to keep it
sucky.

------
interlocutor
This is great news for Canada. [https://www.canadim.com/h1b-riskier-canada-
welcome-record-im...](https://www.canadim.com/h1b-riskier-canada-welcome-
record-immigrants/)

Legal immigration is the reason silicon valley exists. Ask Mark Zuckerberg why
he moved Facebook HQ to silicon valley. It is because that's where the
engineers are. If legal immigration wasn't a thing Zuckerberg would have moved
considerable number of jobs to places like Beijing, Bangalore and St.
Petersburg, because that's where he would have found software engineers.

Canada, already a major center for AI innovation, will be the new silicon
valley.

Edit: s/H-1B/immigration/g because the exact visa doesn't matter.

~~~
CountSessine
_Canada, already a major center for AI innovation, will be the new silicon
valley._

The corollary of this is that with our punishingly high personal income and
capital gains taxes and dearth of good exits for startups, the only thing we
really have going for us is our sane points-based immigration system. I work
at a company with a _lot_ of engineers who were trying to get entry to the US
and gave up and decided to work towards PR in Canada instead.

We are essentially arbitraging America's dysfunctional immigration rules. If
the Americans ever get smart and pass comprehensive immigration reform (hint -
like Obama's _Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration
Modernization Act_ of 2013 which never got a vote in the House and withered on
the vine), tech in Canada is even more screwed than it is now.

~~~
mabbo
> the only thing we really have going for us is our sane points-based
> immigration system

I lived in Seattle and enjoyed it, but staying in America long term was never
an option for me. There's so much more to living in Canada than just our
immigration system.

Even with the pay cut for being in Canada, and even with the additional taxes,
I still make enough money to not need to worry about money. More money would
be nice, but it's not all that motivating.

Meanwhile, those taxes go to things I think are important: a strong public
education system; a health care system based on need, not wealth; a safe, gun-
free society; a safe haven for refugees in need.

In my office in Toronto, probably 1000+ Amazon devs could transfer to an
American office and make more money. But we don't. The same goes for the even
larger Vancouver office.

Our immigration rules are just one aspect of why devs live here.

~~~
CountSessine
_I lived in Seattle and enjoyed it, but staying in America long term was never
an option for me. There 's so much more to living in Canada than just our
immigration system._

You work at AMZN - I work at a US company in Canada too. Canada is a nation of
branch-offices, largely because we have no VC-ecosystem, which is largely
because we're a highly redistributive country with high capital gains taxes.

What makes us attractive for branch offices is that smart, hard-working, well-
educated immigrants who can't make it into the US can often make it into
Canada. Native born Canadians, OTOH, are leaving in droves
([https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/technology/article-...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/technology/article-
canada-facing-brain-drain-as-young-tech-talent-leaves-for-silicon/))

But we're a terrible place to start a company and exit, which is why it
doesn't happen very often.

The original poster claimed that Canada could replace Silicon Valley - that's
not going to happen without a better ecosystem for funding start-ups and
rewarding founders.

As for those devs who choose to stay here when they could leave on a TN-1,
make twice the money in the US after taxes and expenses (including health
insurance and private schooling for kids), and work on more interesting
problems at US companies, I encourage them to do the math. They're not doing
themselves any favors living in unliveably-expensive cities earning pennies
and not saving for retirement, and retirement will come a lot sooner than they
think.

------
KorematsuFred
High chance this will get and injunction in courts as soon as the rule is
published.

~~~
networkimprov
But serious damage to the overseas perception of US employers would result
regardless.

~~~
johan_larson
It doesn't matter. Are the Indians and Chinese going to stop pounding on the
doors because the American government makes the rules marginally more strict?
No, probably not.

~~~
sprashanth
In the last 4 months, I've already seen more than 5 friends in my circle
who've left the US for good. They do not plan on returning to the US until the
pathway to a green card is sorted out. They work at companies like Microsoft,
FAANG, etc. Over the next year, another 10-15% of my friend circle is moving
out of the US - most of them cite the green card issue as the primary cause of
returning back.

They've already worked at good tech companies here, most of which have offices
around the world. Their choices directly cause the shift of their jobs from US
to outside. Couple this with the fact that many of my juniors at the best
universities in India (harder to get into than Stan/MIT here) now no longer
consider moving to the US because of these cases, there is already an effect
of really good talent not arriving here. The effect is not obvious in a year
or two, but surely over time you will notice the secondary effects: a lot of
engineers coming from India/China would not be the countries'best - the best
do not want to put up with this, more employees leaving earlier/not settling,
the expansion of India/China offices for these tech companies, or China/India
companies doing better than the US counterparts (in cases where this is
already happening, a lot of the HN crowd blames Chinese protectionism rather
than acknowledging the talent that already exists in those countries).

------
optymizer
As a former H1B visa holder with a spouse, and friends in the same boat, I
have experienced first-hand the effects of having a spouse that is not allowed
to work.

First, they get bored out of their mind. They're young, they want to grow, but
they can't. While you're off to work, networking, learning, your spouse is at
home, trying their best to chase away the feeling of stagnation.

It's OK for the first few months - they go for walks, cook, read, go to the
gym - anything to keep busy, but unless there's a child that takes up their
entire time, they just get bored, then they get sad, and then they get
depressed.

It takes a hard toll on the relationship, which, ironically, is the primary
reason why spouses agree to this in the first place. Most just want to live
with their husbands or wives and have a normal life. Long distance isn't a
realistic option when you're talking about a 6 year H1B visa.

Being unable to work makes the relationship one-sided, because one person goes
to work, provides for the family, and has various experiences which slowly add
up and allows them to grow personally and professionally. In addition, if you
come from a society where gender roles are heavily promoted culturally, it is
especially hard when the roles get reversed when the couple is in the US.
Typically, men lose confidence in their ability to provide for the family and
get very depressed. Women from cultures where there's an expectation that
they'll be a homemaker, have much less stigma associated with not working,
especially if there's a child to take care of.

They are also competing with other couples in various areas: social status,
disposable income (that lets you go on vacations) or ability to buy a house,
and they'll be losing ground simply because of the income level (less so for
FAANG employees, but there are plenty of places hiring on an H1B visa that pay
the minimum they can to meet the H1B criteria).

There are only 2 realistic options most spouses end up taking: the spouse
works illegally (clearly a risky move) or the spouse changes their legal
status: divorces you and marries a citizen (risky and further damages the
quality of your relationship), tries to go to school on an F1 status (which
now requires even more income and puts more pressure on the H1B holder), or
the relationship deteriorates to the point where the non-working spouse goes
back to their home country because they are unhappy here.

Finally, I will say that yes there are many real issues with the H1B visa, but
disallowing the spouse to work is not a solution to any of them. It only
manages to get these young couples behind in life.

I am fortunate enough to have come out of this ordeal fairly unscathed, but
others I know have not been so lucky.

~~~
throwaway082729
Everything you've said is true. My wife is not even in tech. "the relationship
deteriorates to the point where the non-working spouse goes back to their home
country because they are unhappy here." \- this is what we're close to right
now.

~~~
burfog
The difficulty of assimilating in a strange new country is enough to make many
people want to go back, with or without employment. I don't think employment
is the issue here. Culture shock is real.

You're also away from extended family. This is difficult for many people.

Native-born people, with or without both spouses working, experience
relationship troubles and depression. It happens, even without the culture
shock. You may have had the exact same problems had you stayed where you were
born.

FWIW though, there is no need for the spouse to sit around being bored out of
her mind. The solution is to participate in in-person local mommy groups.
Typically the moms gather together at a local park or library, bringing their
little kids. The moms chat with each other while the kids do some activity
together.

~~~
optymizer
> The difficulty of assimilating in a strange new country is enough to make
> many people want to go back, with or without employment.

That's applicable to one group of immigrants, namely those who don't want to
assimilate. However, this discussion is about those who are perfectly OK with
assimilating into the US culture.

> I don't think employment is the issue here.

It's absolutely the issue here. You seem to be focused on immigrants who fail
to assimilate, and you're applying their problems to all other immigrants
("What's that, your spouse can't afford to pay for tuition and you are not
allowed to work? well, see, it's actually very simple. You just failed to
assimilate and you will soon have to go back to your country. Ha ha, one less
evil immigrant to deal with!")

> Native-born people, with or without both spouses working, experience
> relationship troubles and depression.

What we're talking about here is the direct link between a government rule,
and the known issues that rule has created for immigrants in the past. The
argument you brought to the discussion, however, is similar to shooting an
immigrant in the foot and telling them that native people also have foot pain,
with or without being shot in the foot. It's non-sensical.

> FWIW though, there is no need for the spouse to sit around being bored out
> of her mind

Since you said "for what it's worth", I'll just say that it's worth exactly
zero. I've already given examples of what most folks attempt to do when faced
with the reality of not being able to seek employment, though you, again,
chose to focus on a narrow subset of the group, extract a detail about them
and then apply it to everyone else in the group. Do you notice a pattern here?

> The solution is to participate in in-person local mommy groups.

Finally we got to the part of your comment where you show how little you think
of spouses of immigrants. Just to drive this point home: you took a detail
from a subset of the group ('mommies'), and claim it will work for everyone
else in the group. Again, do you notice a pattern here?

Also, I've already mentioned in my comment above that a child will consume
most of one's time, but also most of the limited income, so that solution
'solves the problem' by creating an even bigger problem. Sometimes it works
out, some time it doesn't. We could increase the chance of success for such
families if we allowed both spouses to seek employment.

~~~
burfog
The point of the visa is supposedly to bring in unusually high-value workers.
The value of a worker is called into question if they need a second income.
The same is true if a child consumes "most of the limited income". You should
be able to afford a half dozen children and a house (4 bedroom, 3 bath,
garage, fenced yard) and a car. Maybe you even send all of your kids to
private school, or you pay full tuition at Harvard.

The visa is supposedly not for people who just want to come take a couple
ordinary jobs away from ordinary Americans. You're supposed to be extra-
special and wonderful, bringing amazing value to the country. The idea is to
let you try out the country, with the hope that you might become an unusually
productive citizen.

Anyway, if you don't like the deal, you don't have to accept the deal.

~~~
optymizer
The purpose of an H1B visa is to bring in "foreign workers in specialty
occupations" (engineers, architects, etc), not foreign workers that are able
to command a very high salary (e.g. CEOs).

Sometimes foreign workers are able to negotiate an above average salary,
sometimes they can't, because the company has a very high reputation or access
to unique resources and uses that as leverage (for example, NASA, Harvard,
etc).

Most likely, they'll get an average salary in exchange for being able to work
at the company in a first world country, so they'll be able to afford whatever
the 'local' Americans are able to afford in the area. Can your average
American afford a 4 bedroom house and 6 children in 2019?

That's the real deal that's being sent in a Word document requiring your
signature. Yes, you don't have to accept the deal, but the US government
doesn't have to prevent spouses from seeking employment either, causing more
issues for the immigrant families.

Which one of these 2 options benefits the US more?

~~~
burfog
The average engineer can afford a 4 bedroom house and 6 children in 2019. The
same goes for somebody who might be called a software architect, but not for
the type of architect who draws floorplans and rooflines for houses.

Maybe that doesn't work in San Francisco, but there are many other places to
live in the USA. Most of the country is very affordable for somebody who can
design software or hardware.

As I understand it, getting an above-average salary is nearly a legal
requirement. Going below average is prohibited. (one could be exactly average
I think)

To make a random example: $150,000 per year will have you living very well in
Deerfield Beach, FL or in Georgetown, KY.

------
stunt
Just take look into EU countries and try to apply some of the same policies.
They seem to have if not zero, less issues with high skilled workers.

Otherwise you can blame H1B holders forever. They didn't wrote the policy or
the law. You shouldn't punish them for what they had no influence. They should
be able to plan for their living. They should be encouraged to contribute and
integrate with society.

------
RhysU
Some possible impacts:

1) Drives up wages to the point where an H1B couple can contain one non-
working spouse. Not bad.

2) Causes H1B applicants to skew towards younger folks without families,
reducing housing pressure. Not bad.

3) Causes H1B recipients to marry citizens at slightly higher rates and more
quickly assimilate, especially in the second+ generation. Call it a wash.

~~~
theshadowmonkey
1\. Might not happen in the probably the next decade. Earning 200k+ in Bay
Area is common and still hard to live on a single salary. What should an
engineer do to make it go to 400k? 2\. So, you want experienced, well trained
experts in their respective fields to leave the country and go elsewhere after
the companies spend so much on their younger selves? 3\. This would be a small
minority whatever happens. After growing up in a country with a completely
different culture for ~25 years, a sudden shift in a small timeframe is not
expected.

~~~
ap3
Realistically how can 200k+ be hard to live on?

~~~
theshadowmonkey
It's not hard to live on. But, you mostly don't save anything or you might
take a long time to buy a house.

------
davidw
Yet another hurtful policy that puts paid to the notion of "oh, but we're
perfectly ok with _legal_ immigration".

~~~
refurb
I don’t someone has to support open borders to be “ok with legal immigration”.

------
MR4D
To the moderators: the article title here is incorrect. The title on the
linked page is actually:

    
    
      “Trump administration begins effort to strip work permits for immigrant spouses“

------
throwaway082729
The system is fundamentally broken and it's partly my own countrymen to blame.
I've lived here for 17 years (in 4 years, if I live here, I'd have lived here
longer than in my home country), earn more than $500k per year and recently
got an offer for $600+k/yr. I've probably paid at least three quarters of a
million in taxes. I'm still on a H1, cannot change jobs easily, cannot do
anything on the side like advise companies and though I get opportunities for
VP roles, cannot take them up since companies usually don't want a VP that's
on a H1. This news is devastating since my wife quit her job after my kid was
born and only recently has used the EAD to work with autistic children which
has been her passion all her life. If HR1044 does not pass, we've decided to
move back. I'll take my $1.5M, which I could have invested here, with me and
invest it in my home country instead (or I'll come back on a L-1 visa like so
many of my lesser-qualified friends and get a green card in a couple of
years).

~~~
sundaeofshock
$500k/year? I’m supposed to feel sympathy towards you when there are H1b
holders who are being horribly exploited?

$500k/year is a lot of fucking money, even in the Bay Area.

~~~
jogjayr
H1B-holder: _earns $80k /year_

"Cheap labor! Exploitation!"

H1B-holder: _earns $500k /year_

"You greedy bastard! You want a green card on top of that?!"

H1B-holder: _shocked Pikachu face_

Sorry for the Reddit-style comment :-). Also, I haven't downvoted you (in case
someone has and you were wondering) because I don't believe you're posting in
bad faith. But you do see the contradiction?

------
aussieguy1234
Trump. Making Canada great again.

~~~
ars
This isn't Trump, this lawsuit was filed during the Obama years.

