
We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness - bcn
http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2013/01/30/we-need-to-have-sympathy-for-those-with-depression-it-is-an-illness/
======
austenallred
Thank you, Mark, for writing this.

I have lost three close friends in the past three months to depression. Their
deaths were so similar it was shocking; they were all among the most brilliant
people I had known, and all had been suffering from depression almost their
entire lives.

At the funeral of the one who was closest to me, another girl told a story of
how on one day when his depression was particularly bad, he boasted in his
great success for the day: Getting out of bed to brush his teeth.

Bear in mind this was a kid who spoke Russian and Arabic fluently, who loved
the arts, was incredible at chess, was a great musician, and took Calculus BC
in 9th grade. Absolutely brilliant. He was a fighter, he was stubborn, he was
young, and some say he took his own life. I prefer to say that depression took
his life.

Sorry for getting so personal, but I simply can't take any of the comments
that say "just get over it." Depression is as real and as disabling as being
paralyzed; it may not happen to everyone, but to say things like, "You need to
be stronger" are no more appropriate to the depressed than they are to the
paralyzed.

But most of all, if any of you are reading this who have depression, keep
fighting. Recognize your brain lies to you, and no matter what it says there
are many people who love you and it will get better.

~~~
nnq
> your brain lies to you

Indeed, I've been saying this to myself in dozens of situations, not just
depressive moods. If you actually _believe it_ when you say it, it's like a
sort of mantra that can replace any pill! ...but unfortunately people
suffering from clinical depression can't get themselves into the "saying it
and believing it mode".

~~~
opminion
Perhaps a digested, weighted, real-world-mapped version of Wikipedia's list of
cognitive biases [1] would be useful as mantra.

Just the kind of thing that xkcd does with posters, actually.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biases_in_judgment_and_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biases_in_judgment_and_decision_making)

------
jdietrich
Fuck this shit.

We need to have sympathy. Not because we've diagnosed someone with a disease,
but because they're a person.

Rates of depression are skyrocketing all over the developed world and whatever
we're doing clearly isn't working. Personally, I think the most obvious issue
is that a group of intelligent people have simply accepted the notion that
what's relevant isn't someone's life circumstances, but some vague and
baseless notion of "abnormal brain chemistry".

The idea of depression is a miserable cop-out, it's simply victim-blaming. We
say that there is something wrong with their brains, rather than saying that
there is something wrong with society. If someone is unhappy, we need to
support them. It is a dismal failure of our humanity if we require the
justification of medical necessity to show basic compassion.

Swartz had obvious reasons to be miserable and obvious reasons to want to kill
himself. We failed him, we fucked up. He didn't die of a disease, he killed
himself because he quite justifiably felt that the circumstances of his life
were intolerable. We didn't do enough as a community to support him and
protect him. He was a young and vulnerable man, bearing the wrath of a
spiteful government. It's shameful for us to even consider for a moment that
there might be something wrong with Swartz's brain, when our failures to care
for him are so obvious.

If we need a scientific explanation for why we should care about each other,
that's our problem. If we require a doctor's say-so to provide support for
someone in difficulty, that's our disease.

~~~
Osmium
> Personally, I think the most obvious issue is that a group of intelligent
> people have simply accepted the notion that what's relevant isn't someone's
> life circumstances, but some vague and baseless notion of "abnormal brain
> chemistry".

How about people who lead objectively wonderful lives, with good jobs and
happy families, but still suffer from deep depression? The problem, if any,
seems to be the other way round: that some people think only people will "bad"
lives can suffer from depression, and everyone else should just "get over it."
That's what seems wrong to me--and if identifying "abnormal brain chemistry"
as a cause of depression helps people realise that _anyone_ can be a victim
then so be it.

Clearly if someone is suffering then external factors can make it so much
worse, but that doesn't mean depression needs an external cause. Sometimes it
just _is_.

~~~
cnlwsu
Maybe good job and family isn't the only factors in leading a happy life?

Not that I agree fully that brain chemistry isn't a factor. That said, the
fact that wealthier countries have higher depression rates (according to WHO)
does make me think there is something non-biological involved.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
Speaking from both experience and anthropological theory, I would hypothesize
that wealthier countries have more depression because they are more mobile.

To start with the anthropological theory, let's take David Graeber's notion
from _Debt_ about the trauma of slavery. It's not merely being made to work by
force that makes a slave. On a personal level, what traumatizes and
dehumanizes a slave is that they have been _ripped from their context_.
Everything that tied the free person to their family, their friends, their
tribe/nation, their home, their religion, their culture, even their _enemies_
, _it has all been taken away_.

I think whenever you take someone entirely out of their context and put them
in an entirely new context, there is a chance for depression, because I think
that on a deep level, depression is a phenomenon of a person being _out-of-
context_ , or at least, out of any context that can physically and mentally
nourish them in the right way.

------
chris_wot
Right now I am depressed. I feel terrible, and very, very guilty that I feel
the way I do. I don't want to do anything, but I do want to do something to
distract me away from my awful feeling of numbness. I worry about the future
at times, and feel I'm at a dead end. I worry about my kids, and my wife, and
my ageing parents. I'm sleeping constantly, but when I sleep my dreams are too
vivid.

Despite it all, I'm a functioning human being. I function at work so I use
this to distract myself. It's a fairly dull job at the moment while I try to
do a Computer Science degree. But I've had to defer it due to family pressures
and because of this blasted funk. I intended to study in my own time,
especially mathematics, but I just can't get enough motivation to do it now. I
was teaching myself JPA from scratch, and was making headway, that's gone out
the window. I had some ideas for an ITSM app, but that's gone too. I feel like
I haven't fulfilled my goals, and a failure.

I'm not a raging depressive, but a few weeks ago I couldn't stop crying. I
feel like a burden so I'm trying to hide it all. It leaks out. So I sleep, and
this reduces my ability to socialise. I then feel guilty, but nobody is
judging me.

It's life I guess. I don't write this to ask for pity, but to explain what
it's like, while it's happening. If I had to summarise my mental state, it's
like a piece of me has died inside. Knowing that it will go away doesn't
really help the feeling, but it gives me fortitude to get to the next day.

I hope this might give some insight to those who haven't felt this way before.

~~~
synecdoche
I recognise some of the symptoms you describe; feeling guilty and feeling
shame for my shortcomings. When asked what I would like to do, like you I
didn't want to do anything.

I used to be depressed. Here is my experience. My depression ended about 6
months ago and lasted for about 4 years. Before then I've been depressed on
and off most of my life, sometimes as severely as this time, other times just
as nearly constant anxiety and a general resignation to the feeling that my
character is depressive.

After some time and a big change in my life, I tried to get help. At the start
I was helped by seeing a psychologist (who practiced CBT) and by taking
medication. Later I couldn't have therapy any more but remained on medication.

I slowly recovered, and I think it was because I was lucky to get on the right
track. That track was to be honest about all, and not try to hide any, aspects
about myself, to everybody. Also those aspects that may not be perceived as
positive in the norms of society. This turned out to be quite a relief. I had
decided that I'd do that no matter how much social pressure I would feel from
thinking I'd be perceived as different or unaccepted. This had been a fear all
my life, and still is. Situations come up quite frequently when I do this
fearing total rejection, but I still do it. There's fear but no anxiety. I've
come to realise that honesty is much more valuable, and perhaps the most
valuable thing of all. Not only to me, but to others too.

Recently I got a tremendous boost and confirmation when I heard about some of
the reasoning behind the development of something called Non-violent
Communication, in which it is also touched upon depression. I can't say that
NC would help others or even myself at the outset, but it made a lot of sense
to me.

~~~
chris_wot
I should, perhaps, clarify that I'm remarkably open about my depression when
I'm not in the midst of it and feeling like I'm a burden on everyone. When I'm
feeling as I am at the moment, that's when my tendency to feel guilty comes to
the fore.

Very odd, and not helpful. It's very, very hard to get perspective when in
this sort of state. Ironically, on HN I seem to be able to express myself.
Perhaps putting down the words on the page (or textbox) gives some
perspective. I'm sure I can't be the only one who experiences this...

------
DanBC
Already this thread has replies that are trotting out the usual "depression is
just sadness" or "CBT is nonsense".

The UK NHS National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence
(<http://www.nice.org.uk/>) gathers evidence of cost effectiveness (using
quality adjusted life years) for various treatments.

They are pretty clear - CBT is excellent for mild depression; CBT and
medication combined is more effective than either treatment alone for moderate
to severe depression.

The Cochrane Collaboration (<http://www.cochrane.org/>) carefully investigates
all the research, judges its quality, and publishes a meta analysis. They're
pretty clear that CBT is effective.

~~~
Tichy
I think if you go along that line of argumentation, it would be nice to link
to actual articles and studies, rather than the homepage of some organization.
Otherwise it is just a "call to authority", and we know those were never wrong
in the course of history, right?

For starters, what do they even measure to estimate effectiveness? Suicide
rates? Happyness induced from a questionaire? Brainwaves? Hormone levels?

What does effective even mean? Does it mean the patient did not induce further
costs for the health industry? It could mean all sorts of things. For example
chaining a patient to a bed could also be very effective in preventing
suicide. So if you measure "suicides prevented", perhaps chaining people to
beds is the best course of action?

~~~
DanBC
> it would be nice to link to actual articles and studies, rather than the
> homepage of some organization.

These organisations link to their papers, and to the original studies.

> What does effective even mean? Does it mean the patient did not induce
> further costs for the health industry? It could mean all sorts of things.
> For example chaining a patient to a bed could also be very effective in
> preventing suicide. So if you measure "suicides prevented", perhaps chaining
> people to beds is the best course of action?

I knew many questions would be asked, but I didn't know what those questions
would be. Rather than try to predict which questions would be asked I just
link to the home pages so that you can do your own research.

After all, if you're sceptical (not a bad thing) of me you should assume that
I'll cherry pick the research that I show you.

~~~
Tichy
Why bother even linking to the homepage, why not just link to Google? Why even
discuss at all? Everything can be proved with Google...

As for my question about which aspects they even measured: interesting would
be of course YOUR aspects, which led you to your conclusion. Otherwise, the
same holds: perhaps I believe you that method X is very successful, but really
you only said "chaining people to beds is very successful in preventing
suicides".

------
lhnz
A lot of uniformed people in this thread. You can't generalise as much as you
all do.

You have to understand that people experience life in very different ways. I
have experienced depression [0] but I can't speak for anybody else other than
to say I know it's hard and _keep on_.

The real problem with depression is that everybody wants to wash their hands
of it. "There are doctors that we can pass these sick people to. The system
will sort everything out. That guy's a real downer, I hope he get's help...
from somebody else..." I understand that it can be a mood-ruiner and people
feel ashamed of it even by association but where is the strength in ignoring
things? Compassion would truly be helpful and if you can give it, give it.

Go for CBT and you'll find it largely amounts to filling out forms on your
mental state with tickboxes that don't really apply to you, while somebody
tries to find out ways that your thinking is twisted. But you can be rational,
successful, positive and still feel awful. Do you want to medicate the hell
out of the high-functioning, positive guy that wants to change the world [1]?
The term 'chemical imbalance' sometimes gets thrown around, and honestly it's
probably wrong but there is a truth to it -- often the people that say they
have a chemical imbalance are thinking quite rationally but facing terrible
emotions that they know they shouldn't have to (from trauma, or an unhealthy
subconscious.)

[0] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5096568>

[1] <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgh2dFngFsg>

edit; If you're going to downvote me it would be nice if you would mention
why. Do you actually have experience of any of this? I'm trying to give my
honest experience on this, and I'm trying to point out that a guy like Aaron
Swartz doesn't really fit the neat definitions required by most treatments;
and that compassion beyond telling others to 'go to a doctor' is worthwhile.

~~~
DanBC
I didn't downvote you.

> _Go for CBT and you'll find it largely amounts to filling out forms on your
> mental state with tickboxes that don't really apply to you, while somebody
> tries to find out ways that your thinking is twisted._

This is a poor version of CBT. Any practitioner providing CBT like this is
doing it wrong.

CBT is not about telling you that you are wrong or that your thinking is
twisted. CBT is about exploring with you what your thinking is; what's
happening to you with those thoughts; how strongly you feel those thoughts and
emotions. CBT is about helping you understand why you feel the things that you
feel, and why you think the things you think.

There can be a bit of writing when you begin - some people find it useful to
have the process down in a concrete form. There doesn't have to be writing.
And checking boxes is not a good approach.

Medication works for some people. But the serotonin hypothesis is
controversial.

> Do you want to medicate the hell out of the high-functioning, positive guy
> that wants to change the world

(I didn't view the YouTube)

Medication can have side effects, and sometimes they're not very nice. But
most SSRIs don't have the kind of effects that people would describe as
"medicate the hell out of".

~~~
G5ANDY
Unfortunately, as it is practiced, this IS what CBT ends up being a good deal
of the time. CBT has an implicit, and sometimes explicit, mechanistic view of
human nature. This can come off as extremely judgmental to vulnerable and
intelligent clients. Other approaches, like Motivational Interviewing, adopt a
neutral stance that offers the potential for clients to actually explore their
feelings instead of just getting rid of them.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivational_interviewing>

Edit: re-reading my comment, I think I am coming off too hard on CBT. There
are real reasons why clients can come out of CBT thinking the therapist is
trying to find what is twisted with them or having them fill out pointless
booklets - this does not completely undercut what CBT is about. There is good
working going on to combine CBT with Motivational Interviewing to improve
treatment of depression and suicidality.

[http://www.selfdeterminationtheory.org/SDT/documents/2011_Br...](http://www.selfdeterminationtheory.org/SDT/documents/2011_BrittonPatricketal_CBP.pdf)

~~~
larve
i am doing CBT (not often though, busy travelling work schedule). I suffer
from bipolar I, and while the medication was the one thing that just
completely changed my life, CBT is there to help me to:

\- figure out my mood. this is about keeping checklists on how long i sleep,
how i feel, if i took my medication, if i ate correctly. this sounds terribly
stupid, but it is very hard for me to even understand what i am feeling.
seeing a little graph that tells me "you have been sleeping 16 hours a day for
the last 2 weeks, and now you are barely able to sleep for 3 hours, something
is going on" is very helpful.

\- figure out what i need to do when certain patterns have been recognized.
this is for example upping up on sports, being careful about diet, going out
to see people when i'm in the down phase. and conversely cutting down on
sports, going out, meditation (which makes me way too energetic and
stimulated), stimulants when being too far up.

\- figuring out my own personal triggers and signs for depression. this is
starting to come along, and these are kind of "personal" things. if i want a
new tatoo, or learn a new skill or programming language, i should be careful
because this is what usually accompanies mania.

it also involves meeting with other people with the same illness, and just for
a few hours every year feeling that you are not the only one in that mess.

an interesting thing about the mood graphs is suddenly realizing that a lot of
these mood swings actually come out of the blue, or are more related to
seasonal effects. it is my brain tricking me into finding causes and patterns
and reasons. i don't want to commit suicide because nobody loves me, it's more
i think nobody loves me because i am depressed because i haven't gone out for
2 weeks and missed out on my medication 3 days in a row. or because it is
december.

i find CBT (at least with the practictioner i have) to be a very no-bullshit
pragmatic approach to handling the psychological side of the illness.

but seriously (and in a way, thank god i have bipolar), medication works
extremely well, and the one i take (lamictal) has almost no side effect.

------
jay-pinkman
not all cases of depression can be attributed to unbalanced brain chemistry.
sometimes the chemistry is ok, it's just your life is fucked. in this case
depression is a normal reaction. you just can't remain all cheerful when
you're drowning in shit. i don't think taking up meds or doing other things to
cover it up is a good answer to such situations. with all its negative aspects
depression is also a big reminder that something is off and must be fixed, it
pushes you to make drastic changes because your regular routine doesn't quite
help. sometimes it pushes you to a suicide which is sad but notice how many
successful people with stellar careers and shiny popular products or art had
been struggling with depression when they were failing at their job, when
their dreams were crumbling, and no end to this horror was in sight. maybe
it's a stretch but i'd say suffering from depression at some point in life is
a normal thing for a maker. sometimes difficulties that you prepared yourself
to are just greatly overshadowed by the actual state of affairs. that's to say
marking all cases of depression as illness that needs to be treated is a wrong
way to look at the problem. in my opinion at least. what helps is support and
understanding, phrases like "pull your socks up" or "go get some pills" don't.

~~~
alan_cx
Why is this voted down? It's a valid opinion.

Please tell me we don't have depression Nazis who can only accept one narrow
definition of depression. What I see described here is possible how most
people experience depression. Or does only extreme depression count?

~~~
DanBC
Depression is a jargon term with a specific meaning, as well as an everyday
word with a fuzzy less specific meaning. That causes some confusion in
discussions like this.

Depression covers a range of different illnesses, with different severities.

Depression is not a normal reaction to a life event.

When someone dies you feel grief. That grief may be severe. But grief is a
normal reaction to death. If, however, the grief is overwhelming and lasts for
years, and interferes with your life then it has developed into depression.
Depression is an abnormal reaction to life events.

There is a form of depression termed "reactive depression". Something happens,
and a person doesn't have a normal negative reaction but has an abnormal
extreme negative reaction and falls into depression. The main treatment for
that would be to correct the thing that caused the reaction, with some CBT,
and medication if needed.

------
yummyfajitas
This essay is making a logical fallacy. The implicit assumption is that if a
person is in a state which falls under the category "illness" they deserve
sympathy, while they might otherwise not.

Unfortunately, the essay does not define it's terms, nor does address why
depression specifically deserves sympathy. Near as I can tell, it's just an
application of the noncentral fallacy.

Overall, a pretty terrible essay.

More on the noncentral fallacy:
<http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_worst_argument_in_the_world>

Noncentral fallacy specifically applied to medical conditions:
[http://lesswrong.com/domain/lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_th...](http://lesswrong.com/domain/lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_questions_about/)

~~~
chris_wot
All I have to say is actually in the lead paragraph of the Wikipedia article:

"Sympathy is an extension of empathic concern, or the perception,
understanding, and reaction to the distress or need of another human being.
This empathic concern is driven by a switch in viewpoint, from a personal
perspective to the perspective of another group or individual who is in need.
Empathy and sympathy are often used interchangeably, but the two terms have
distinct origins and meanings. Empathy refers to the understanding and sharing
of a specific emotional state with another person. Sympathy does not require
the sharing of the same emotional state. Instead, sympathy is a concern for
the well-being of another. Although sympathy may begin with empathizing with
the same emotion another person is feeling, sympathy can be extended to other
emotional states."

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sympathy&oldid...](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sympathy&oldid=534731942)

------
jtchang
The problem with depression is that it is hard to diagnose. If anything we are
still in the dark ages of mental illness. If you have an infection we have a
way to tell you what infection. Right now there is no way to test for
depression.

More scientific research is definitely needed.

~~~
ekianjo
We are no more in the "dark ages of mental illness". You must be kidding.
Before we used to burn people who were mentally deficient and heard voices or
had hallucinations as they were thought to be possessed by the Devil. That was
the "dark ages of mental illness" you are talking about. There is now
information, testing, diagnostic methods everywhere available, and efficient
medication. Keep yourself up to date.

~~~
jtchang
How do you definitively test for depression?

Are the diagnostic methods pretty good? Both accurate and precise with very
low false positive rates?

Is the medication proven to work for depression?

Sorry but I think a lot of that can be argued that we are still shooting in
the dark. I want a test for depression like I test for strep throat. AND I
want the "cure" to be repeatable.

Yes we are still in the dark ages.

~~~
erikpukinskis
_Are the diagnostic methods pretty good? Both accurate and precise with very
low false positive rates?_

Yes: "Overall sensitivity was 84% (95% CI, 79% to 89%); overall specificity
was 72% (CI, 67% to 77%)" (<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7755226>)

 _Is the medication proven to work for depression?_

There's no such thing as proof in science. A recent meta-analysis: "Most
patients treated with serotonergic antidepressants showed a clinical
trajectory over time that is superior to that of placebo-treated patients.
However, some patients receiving these medications did more poorly than
patients receiving placebo. These data highlight the importance of ongoing
monitoring of medication risks and benefits during serotonergic antidepressant
treatment"
([http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=11074...](http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1107437))

~~~
jtchang
Interesting...do you have the full article?

~~~
marvin
I'll Swartz it for you.

[https://www.dropbox.com/s/3uz18obebxavgff/Gueorguieva-et-
al....](https://www.dropbox.com/s/3uz18obebxavgff/Gueorguieva-et-al.pdf)

------
zopticity
Depression has different stages. Sometimes it's easy to get out of depression.
I'm sure we all experience it at our "low" points during different stages of
our lives. From failing a startup or death of a family member.

The depression that we can't get out of alone -- when we lose all hope for
everyone -- that's the hardest to fight. Losing your will to live can quickly
lead to suicide. And it's hard to tell from someone else's perspective that
you're suicidal because you've pushed everyone away.

I think the only cure to the second form of depression is to practice a
healthy state of mind everyday. Enjoy life and friends that are close to
someone. Always share your problems with a close person (someone you truly
trust). You must have the will to live. Giving up isn't the answer to all your
problems because someone else will have to inherit your problems. Which isn't
fair for that someone!

~~~
DanBC
Grief is normal. Grief is an appropriate reaction to a lifetime event. Grief
normally subsides after a time; it's still there, but not overwhelming.

Depression is not normal. When you still feel overwhelming grief years after
the event, and it's affecting your everyday life and preventing you from
functioning, then it's depression.

> _I think the only cure to the second form of depression is to practice a
> healthy state of mind everyday._

I sort of agree - mindfulness and CBT techniques can be used everyday to help
prevent depressive thinking.

------
primitur
We need more compassion in general - not just for the outlier cases - but
society in general can be a pretty mean entity.

I've been thinking lately how sad it is that so many of the younger hackers in
my local scene (metalab.at) are not as familiar with John Lennons' World Peace
movement as they should be. That light was snuffed out, but John (and Yoko,
and many, many others) were really trying hard to get a world peace movement
established, that would bring more love to the world.

If you turn on the TV today, you don't see much love. Most "comedies" are
little more than 30-minutes-ridicule+laughtrack. In fact, remove the laugh-
track from most TV shows and you have a banal hate festival.

I think depression being treated poorly, in general, by society is symptomatic
of a larger maladay - which is that we humans simply don't trust our
neighbors. We don't communicate freely and honestly with each other. You can't
smile at a stranger in Vienna, for instance, just for the sake of the
happiness - there _always_ has to be the inference of an alternative,
sinister, motive. Why is that?

Its because, fundamentally our cultural veigns - the mass communications
networks of PR, Advertising, News, TV - don't profit from happiness and good
times. They profit from the "black blood cell" of intrigue, controversy,
synthesis/anti-synthesis. All we really see on TV is conflict this and that,
and if there is some sort of consolation, its usually couched as "irony" or
some such emotion.

But what of true Peace, where people are getting along great? There is a lot
of that in the world, and it goes under-reported, and just not noticed by the
majority. Its possible that depression is a social disease, and is contagious.

But, so is happiness.

We need more overt acknolwedgement of the good times, too, in my opinion - the
truly good times, real progress. The aversion of the average citizen towards
sharing good news and good times needs to be overcome.

We miss you, John Lennon.

~~~
marknutter
Funny. For me, I get depressed and turned off when I see too much peace,
happiness, and love crap in media. Maybe it's because I'm part of the
generation who's grown skeptical of everything in media, but I definitely
prefer the darker, sarcastic side of content. A John Lennon style love/peace-
fest sounds like an absolute nightmare to me. No thanks.

~~~
cbs
_Funny. For me, I get depressed and turned off when I see too much peace,
happiness, and love crap in media._

I tend to be the same way. If I was as depressed as I as a few years I would
be actively hostile toward the vast majority of the otherwise well-intentioned
posts on this submission.

~~~
marknutter
Yeah, but I'm not depressed. It's just that I can only take saccharin in small
doses.

------
fjarlq
Professor Sapolsky at Stanford gave an interesting lecture about depression a
few years ago... highly recommended:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc>

~~~
paganel
There's also this, "How To Be Alone":
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7X7sZzSXYs> . It did help me a couple of
times.

------
jetti
While I agree that we need to be more sympathetic to those with depression,
but I think it needs to extend way past just depression and on to all mental
illness. Mental illnesses cause distorted thought patterns and it isn't the
fault of the individual who has that mental illness, just as it isn't the
fault of the Type 1 Diabetic that they have their illness.

Speaking from first hand experience, it can be overwhelming and lonely to
suffer from mental illness. I have to hide my thoughts from others (including
my own wife) because of fear that they won't understand and that they may
think of me as a monster.

We have come a long way from where we used to be regarding mental illness
(such as blaming poor parenting), but we still have a long ways to go.

------
elorant
A few years back when I quit smoking I spent two weeks with withdrawal
symptoms the biggest one been depression. It hit me so harsh that I felt like
I lost the earth under my feet. I’ve never felt anything similar and I can
honestly say it was by far the worst period of my life. You wake up and you
just don’t have the courage to do anything. Every single insecurity I had
surfaced during those two weeks multiplied by ten.

The odd thing is that those two weeks were the most socializing ones I’ve ever
spent. I felt like I wanted to be with other people 24/7 although it didn’t
make any difference to my condition. And this imho is the biggest problem with
depression, there are no visible signs that someone suffers from it. So if you
don’t know if someone has it how can you help them.

Fortunately for me this hell lasted only a couple of weeks, until my body cope
up with the lack of nicotine. I don’t know how I would manage to live with
something like that for years or even decades. I have the outmost respect and
sympathy for the ones living with depression.

Without trying to be smart ass I have the feeling that depression is a
fundamental problem of lifestyle standards. The majority of our insecurities
are imposed on us by some wicked version of how life should be. So instead of
enjoying the little moments of happiness we tend to believe that happiness is
a constant situation which happens to be out of our grasp and thus we hammer
ourselves with the inability to get there. And then you end up with a dozen
insecurities and everything seems so vain.

------
dr_
Part of the problem is how doctors, and especially psychiatrists, have
approached treating depression. There are many people who simply get down once
in a while, in response to a particular event or series of events, the way
most of us do at some point in our lives. If these people come across a
psychiatrist, there's a decent chance they will end up on anti depressants
when they likely just need some counseling and time. They should not be
classified as depressed, maybe a transient mood disorder, but who knows if
insurance would pay for that. That takes away from people who truly suffer
from clinical depression, a real medical condition which should be separately
classified as such. If you throw them into the basket of people who are just
down once in a while, you do them a great disservice, because society then
looks at them as someone who just can't deal with issues and need a crutch in
the form of medications. The people with real clinical depression are the ones
who are at risk of committing suicide. Psychiatrists can figure out which is
which usually, not always, but instead they treat everyone the same, and as a
result less time is spent on those who need it the most (unless they end up
getting hospitalized)

------
throwin
I agree that depression is an illness. I also agree that we need more sympathy
and help for those who suffer it, and there needs to be less stigma
surrounding it.

Having said that, we should not forget the victim's loved ones left behind,
after his/her suicide to grieve and bury the victim. These people are victims
too. Sometimes other lives are destroyed by an act of suicide. A young wife
left to raise the kids alone. A mother forced to bury an only child; perhaps
committed to a life of depression herself.

For the record, I have had my own battles with depression. I have had days I
was unable to get out of bed. I have also had suicidal thoughts. But the
thought of the pain I would inflict on my family, particularly my mom, would
never allow me to truly consider it an option. I don't pretend to have felt
the pain that would drive one to suicide, because there are degrees and
experiences differ. But it helps to know where I'm coming from.

I think there needs to be more of a stigma surrounding suicide and more
awareness for the pain of those that are left to grieve. If you're considering
ending it all, please try to get help, and please think of the pain you will
be inflicting on those you leave behind.

------
alan_cx
I am said to suffer depression myself, which BTW I would deny as I would say
its "realism", but I really have an issue with it being described as an
"illness".

It seems to be that this definition is more about giving depression PR parity
with actual illnesses, rather than a correct label. Its like the public will
accept an "illness" as real, but a psychological issues as not real. There for
making the public see depression as "illness" helps get support. See what I
mean?

From what I can make out, depression is a state of mind. Its a psychological
thing. Ie, its a sort of loop people get themselves in to. That, to me, is not
an illness. Not more so than arrogance, confidence or anger. Its an emotion.
Is love an illness too? I realise that can be debated, but I don't think its
helpful to redefine things for PR reasons. To me that cheapens it.

I'm not saying depression is there for less valid, clearly its as debilitating
as what I would think of as real "illness", if not more so, but I do roll my
eyes and switch off every time I hear the word "illness" appropriated for
things that aren't really "illnesses". As I say, the lack of the word illness
doesn't, to me, make it less serious. To me, using that word is not necessary,
it just blurs the lines and can put people off caring. It make it sound
exaggerated or a bit "me too".

Should add that I do understand that there are different types of depression.
Perhaps using the single word depression to cover all cases is more the
problem that the word "illness".

I'm by no means unsympathetic, I know how it can effect people. I've seen the
results of suicide. Hell, my mum's other half had to cut the bloke down while
the wife screamed in the street. But I worry that re-defining things puts the
general population off.

No idea if these definitions are different each side of the Atlantic. Heh, no
idea if its just me who thinks this either!!!

~~~
InclinedPlane
This is wrong, wrong, wrong. Sometimes people get down or get "the blues" but
this is something very much different from major clinical depression.
Depression has many aspects but one of the most important is a chemical
imbalance in the brain. It's not just a feeling or an emotion, it's a
fundamental change to the way your brain works. And episodes of major
depression can last for years, even decades.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_Depression has many aspects but one of the most important is a chemical
imbalance in the brain._

If this is the case, there should be a chemical test to determine whether a
person suffers from it. Does such a test exist? I'm unaware of it, but I'd
love to read more.

(I'm not asking if it's clinically usable, but merely whether the specific
chemicals and levels are known. If they are not known, then "chemical
imbalance" is merely a hypothesis.)

~~~
larve
how about just doing a tiny bit of research:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_of_depression> ??

~~~
yummyfajitas
You could have simply said "no".

------
alexvay
"We Need to Have Sympathy." Period. There, I fixed it for you.

------
rowanseymour
Let me preface this with: I have first hand experience of depression, I don't
think it's just sadness and I'm absolutely sympathetic toward those who with
depression.

But...

My thinking about mental illness changed a lot after reading a book called
Crazy Like Us [1]. It doesn't talk about depression specifically - it's a
collection of case studies on how different mental illnesses have been
experienced/handled/treated by different societies around the world, and how
western understandings of mental illness have generally displaced existing
cultural understandings, not always for the better.

The major argument of the book is that the Western view of conditions such as
depression as 'mental illness' has been counter-productive to attempts to de-
stigmatize such conditions. The author also makes a convincing argument that
it's also made recovery less likely for a lot of sufferers.

And to me that makes a lot of sense. Many other cultures view emotional
suffering as a normal part of human life. In the West we view it as an
unnatural state. We think that by detaching the condition from the sufferer,
we're de-stigmatizing it, but the sufferer ends up more stigmatized because...
now they are considered mentally ill. And they have less hope of their
situation improving, because we're telling them that there is something
biologically wrong with them.

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/Crazy-Like-Us-Globalization-
American/d...](http://www.amazon.com/Crazy-Like-Us-Globalization-
American/dp/1416587098/)

------
jtchang
If there is one thing I've learned about depression is that we suck at
identifying it and we suck even more at "curing" it.

I'm not a doctor. But there is a huge difference between being sad and killing
yourself. There are some people who think it is just "in their head" and to
"shake it off". There have been lots of diseases in our history that people
thought were normal until we made some crazy discovery that what was really
causing it was some previously unknown agent.

------
acjohnson55
Having experienced a couple major depressive episodes, I have no desire to
ever go back, and I've built myself a sort of mental fortress to hopefully
withstand whatever shocks I'll experience as I keep on living. I'm fortunate
in that in both of my cases, I was able to emerge and put the depression
behind me. I can't imagine chronically feeling the way I did.

Imagine being so emotionally hurt that it feels like physical pain, long after
you were able to mentally process what initially upset you. Like a pain so
chronic and awful that you're willing to do just about anything to make it
stop. Imagine how frustrating it is to want to be over something and to think
you are mentally past it, but the emotional side of your brain (i.e. most of
it) just won't budge. And then on top of it, you feel guilty for being such a
drag on people around you. And you also feel paranoid that even when you're
not dumping on them, you're alienating them in some way. So you mostly just
suffer in silence. It's terribly debilitating.

A friend of mine who undoubtedly would be reading HN today if he were still
around evidently felt this way pretty much his entire life. I don't think I
would have been able to take it either.

------
TheCapn
I live with someone who suffers from depression. The idea that it is a disease
is somewhat welcoming in that it allows people to rationalize that their
actions are not entirely their fault, but at the same time it almost hurts
those suffering because of the complacent attitudes it breeds.

Often times, before a person is known to suffer from depression people will
comment on their behaviors/mannerisms as if they're abnormal. Once they
realize the issue they are sympathetic but change to "they can't help it,
they're depressed." In many ways this can be true, its uncontrollable at
times, but for other times they need support, not sympathy.

Support means helping them feel better about what ails them. It means
distracting them from their worries with things you know will lift their
spirits and help them see the lighter sides of things. When you can't lift
their spirits you need to be there until they can move on naturally. A person
suffering from depression can focus on a negative aspect of life so intently
that it is damaging but as a supportive role in their life you need to look
past that.

Don't sympathize, be active in supporting them or get out of the way so
someone willing to can.

------
gesman
As part of self observation I noticed that depression starts with negative
thinking. The thought can be qualified as "negative" or "positive" by the
physical bodily sensation it produces. Negative thought essentially produces
self-inflicted pain within the body. Consistent negative thinking produces
more inner pain and at more intense levels. This inner pain in turns fuels
negative thoughts pattern that continues to inflict more "emotional" pain.
Then it becomes vicious cycle of "beating yourself up".

At deeply depressed stages thought control no longer works and any attempts to
"think yourself" out of depression are becoming futile. At these stages
depression is fueled by constant intense physical/emotional pain that is
constantly present seemingly without any thinking processed. The more intense
the pain - the more unbearable it is - and this drives person to suicide as
the last resort to stop suffering.

The actual solution in this case it to guide person to look at the pain
directly instead of escaping, avoiding or suppressing it with painkillers.
Painkillers may be necessary to maintain sanity though through the practice.
This is ancient practice talked about by pretty much every spiritual teacher -
yet widely ignored. When you feel depressed - locate exact area of painful
physical sensations within the body and start observing it. Watch your
sensations, watch your feelings, watch them exactly where they are. Do not try
to change them, do not try to kill them, just observe them. At the same time
breathe and follow your breathing as well. Conscious breathing slows down
incessant thinking. Direct observation of painful emotions will start
dissolving them.

This is very efficient practice that I personally benefited from during very
intense emotional downturns and depressive states.

------
bocalogic
Depression happens for many reasons. We do need to have sympathy because the
depth of depression varies from person to person.

Some of it can be genetic and I think it can also be copied from other people
or passed on. That is why if you hang around with happy people you have a
tendency to be happier.

One of the things I noticed in my successful peers is that they go through a
period of depression before great periods of productivity or creativity. The
depths of depressions or "pullbacks" vary from person to person but most of
them show that trait before periods of greatness.

IMO, depression is increasing because pressure is increasing on the average
individual in general. From society, to our peers, from the media, from our
own competitive nature we are putting more pressure on ourselves to perform or
not perform via rebelling.

I am not a doctor, but I know when one of my friends or peers say they are
depressed, it is taken very seriously. We all go out of our way to support
that person.

Life does go on. Life does change. Sometimes it is darkest before the dawn.
Never give up.

------
fghh45sdfhr3
How common is it to find people who _don't_ sympathize with depressed people?
I don't care about anonymous trolls on the internet. I mean in real life?

In my experience with depression, everyone sympathizes and worries and wants
help the depressed person. But being a vicious brain disease, depression will
make you think the people who love you actually hate you and lough at you
behind your back, when at work, or even while sleeping.

I have been accused of laughing at the person I love while sleeping, by her.
No, it did not make me upset. I know it was the demons in hear head making her
say that. I had been with her as she descended deeper and deeper and her self-
hatred got worse and worse.

So when I hear that we need to sympathize with depression, I think you either
have no experience with depressed people, or you're trying to convince
anonymous internet trolls. The later is as futile and pointless task as can
be. It is better to teach and train people on ignoring the trolls.

------
kremdela
I have suffered from severe depression since I was young. I (think) I'm pretty
smart, but have definitely held myself back from achieving things that I could
have because of it.

I have found this to be nearly crippling when accompanied with the rejection
and difficulty of being an entrepreneur. Professionally, I have done a lot of
freelance work as a result.

I've held pretty good jobs for ~ 1 year, but eventually have some problem due
to workload stress combined with my depression. Regrettably this has made me
leave jobs in non-ideal ways.

I'm looking for my next great position now, and it's tough to answer the "why
did you leave this position and then go freelance last year" with "I let my
depression get ahead of me and tried to kill myself."

I know that it's an incredible liability to a potential employer to hire
someone that might do great work for a year and then abruptly leave.

I just needed to get that off my chest.

------
evgenit
In addition to sympathy, I wish we were better at telling people close to us
to go see a doctor about their depression, or mental health in general. In
particular, I wish someone had told me to do so ~7 years ago; would have saved
a lot of misery.

------
corporalagumbo
I really disagree with the classification of depression as a mental illness...
it's such a crude way to talk about what is really a spiritual and
intellectual problem.

------
mattmaroon
I don't know that depression is really that stigmatized these days. It's
poorly understood, even by the people studying it. But though we might argue
about the merits of chemicals vs therapy, I think most people recognize it as
a genuine illness that needs to be treated.

Having previously been married to someone with depression issues (suicidal
thoughts included) I can say it's a bitch. It's hard to know someone like that
and not think of them as ill.

------
will_phipps
For anyone affected by depression or other mental health issues, like stress
and anxiety, I recommend the work of John Kabat Zinn and his teachings on
mindfulness. This was offered when I was still an in patient at a psychiatric
unit and has had numerous beneficial effects on people I know who have
struggled with serious depression and mental illness (including myself). There
are mindfulness courses all over the world these days :)

------
Osmium
The trouble with so many mental illnesses is that there's no good diagnostic
test to help identify sufferers, and many go undetected or untreated until
it's too late. There must be something that can be done about this. It might
help those not personally affected by depression to understand its true nature
better too.

------
cohort
Great talk about mental illness on TED
[http://www.ted.com/talks/ruby_wax_what_s_so_funny_about_ment...](http://www.ted.com/talks/ruby_wax_what_s_so_funny_about_mental_illness.html)

------
blots
What if depression is the evolutionary solution to overpopulation?

------
michaelochurch
Depression is partly biological-- the tendency that way surely is-- but it's
also a natural outgrowth of a society that doesn't forgive mistakes and that
tests people not based on peak capability or creativity, but on breaking
point.

Somehow, we've conflated character and loyalty (which _are_ important) with
the willingness to suffer needlessly in the name of subordination and whatever
the fuck "team player" means.

The brogrammer culture and unnecessary long hours of Corporate America are all
about testing people based on their decline curves, not peak performance. It's
competing to suffer rather than competing to excel. Who is the first to crack?
Fire him. Who is the last to break? Promote him. It's ridiculous and of course
it's going to lead to an "epidemic" of mental illness.

In the corporate world, we promote based on participation in shared suffering
(i.e. who stays until 1:30am to meet an arbitrary deadline) rather than
talent, and we kick people when they're down, which is why it's impossible for
someone to get back into the career game after even a short time outside of it
(maternity, illness, depression). Of course we're going to have our best
people dropping like flies.

Depression and anxiety disorders have always existed, but they don't need to
be this common. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that at least half of the
problem is caused by social and economic forces. These problems are biological
at root, but social factors tend to modulate the severity that people
experience.

Mark Suster deserves major props for speaking out about this. I've criticized
him in the past, but I'm starting to like the guy.

------
goggles99
If you took a survey, asking if they felt sympathy for those diagnosed with
the mental illness of clinical depression, I am pretty sure that most would
answer yes.

My point is that this article is sort of worthless and whats more, the title
is really irritating (because most people already have sympathy for those with
depression). How about an article titled - we need to seek shelter to survive
winter (most people already do).

What we need to do is a lot more than feel sorry for these people. We need to
take action to help them.

------
LatvjuAvs
Without death of loved one, without death of friends. Without these a lot of
revelations and emotions would be locked in you forever.

They spark humanity, they unite, they bring forward topics that usually no one
would want to discuss.

And when all your fears will be dealt with, maybe death will stop be so scary.

------
eriksank
It seems to be culturally dependent too and related to education as well.
There seems to be less of an epidemic in the part of Asia where I live.

~~~
ekianjo
I am not sure which part of Asia you are referring to, but in Japan there is
"depression boom", at least judging by the increased amount of anti-
depressants being sold.

~~~
eshvk
I lived in India and the conditions could be described to be bleak enough to
make the most optimistic person sad. Suicide rates there were 10x what they
are in the west. I am not even sure there is enough cultural understanding and
sensitivity about depression: There used to be an uproar and attempts to treat
the symptoms when high school kids used to commit suicide by the dozen
(typically after poor exam results).

(To the other poster, depression is not the same as "being sad" and having a
bunch of people around you all the time asking you whether there is something
wrong is not necessarily conducive to mental health. (Just to offer a flip
side to your oh, there is so much community which is why there is a lack of
mental illness anecdote.))

~~~
khitchdee
Depression is having a negative outlook on life over an extended period of
time that starts effecting your everyday decisions and causing you to withdraw
from social situations. It's an extension of being sad. Turn it around. If
you're happy most of the time, it will be difficult for a psychiatrist to
classify you as being depressed.

~~~
eshvk
Sorry no offense, but you don't get depression. There are people who may have
a "positive outlook" on life, appear to be happy go lucky and one fine day not
be able to get out of bed due a to crippling overwhelming feeling of despair.
This is not just an "extension of being sad.". You can't just shake a person
who is depressed or throw a bunch of balloons or bring a bunch of relatives
around this person and make them feel happy. Sometimes, a person who is
depressed can't even explain why they are being depressed. Sadness doesn't
work like that.

~~~
khitchdee
There's despair and there's sadness. Can you highlight the difference?

~~~
chris_wot
I haven't withdrawn from life (except when I get very tired and need sleep),
and I don't feel sad. I feel flat and empty. Others feel sadness, but it's not
always that way.

------
dschiptsov
BS. Everything that could be lifted by CBT is just ignorance and lack of
determination.

Medication without changing of habits is the same as drinking - it only masks
the symptoms temporarily.

~~~
rgrieselhuber
That is a highly uninformed opinion.

~~~
imperio59
I think it's actually highly well informed, Psychiatrists themselves admit
there's nothing scientific about the whole "brain chemistry imbalance"
bullshit.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzdu3WQyIZg&list=PLFD5944...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzdu3WQyIZg&list=PLFD59441E8A23F04C&index=1)

~~~
hedwall
He isn't talking about medication, he is talking about CBT. CBT on it's own
has been shown to be effective for low to moderate depression.

~~~
DanBC
You are speaking to someone who claims that psychiatrists are responsible for
the holocaust, pearl harbour, etc etc.

~~~
Buzaga
straw-man, ad hominem

One thing is clear to me, discussing psychiatry is already a MAJOR TABOO...
e.g.: in the article the dude says how he "thinks it has something to do with
chemistry... and stuff" clearly in a not-so-scientific reasoning(not that all
must be) but just pointing out this sort of questionings leads to major
downvoting

~~~
DanBC
Can you not see that there is a huge difference between "questioning the
effectiveness of psychiatry" and "blaming psychiatry for the holocaust"?

I'm more than happy to ignore people who use the propaganda from a cult where
_anything_ from psychiatry is ignored.

~~~
Buzaga
k, agree, I don't want nothing to do with Scientology also, but it's still
straw-man to picture everyone who is questioning as a scientologist

~~~
DanBC
> but it's still straw-man to picture everyone who is questioning as a
> scientologist

But that's not what I did. I responded to someone who posted scientology
propaganda.

------
imperio59
Where are the clinical tests for depression? The diagnosis is solely based on
the opinion of the practitioner, there is no brain scan or chemical test that
can conclusively prove that someone is suffering from depression. The so
called "drugs" used to treat depression are no better, they "are thought to
work" (big pharma phrases it this way in their own TV ads) by re-balancing the
brain's chemistry, but in actual fact they have never been able to prove this
with scientific TESTS.

So yes, people get sad sometimes, it's a fact of life, but maybe if we stopped
prescribing them powerful mind altering narcotics that have FDA black warning
label that say right on the box that they increase the risk of suicide, maybe
they wouldn't take their own lives in such huge numbers.

EDIT: Relevant link, please get ALL the facts before you go see a shrink about
your "depression": <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHu7Ik36128>

~~~
Mithrandir
Note: The video linked to by parent is by CCHR, a known Scientology front
group[1]. Doesn't mean they're necessarily right or wrong, just thought people
should know.

1:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Commission_on_Human_R...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Commission_on_Human_Rights)

~~~
atsaloli
Actually, it's no secret that CCHR is related to the Church of Scientology. It
says so on www.scientology.org:

As part of their religious Code, Scientologists pledge “to expose and help
abolish any and all physically damaging practices in the field of mental
health,” and thereby bring about an atmosphere of safety and security to
mental healing. Accordingly, in 1969 Scientologists established the Citizens
Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), a watchdog group that investigates and
exposes psychiatric violations of human rights.

[http://www.scientology.org/activity/citizens-commission-
on-h...](http://www.scientology.org/activity/citizens-commission-on-human-
rights/citizens-commission-on-human-rights.html)

What's an example of a physically damaging practice? How about involuntary
commitment? How about psychosurgery? Forced electroshock? How about being
drugged against your will? How about raped in a psych hospital?

Here is what CCHR does about it:

<http://www.cchr.org/about-us/cchr-accomplishments.html>

I'd call CCHR a social reform group.

~~~
chris_wot
I'd like to see external citations for the list of claimed achievements on
that second page.

To balance out your links and snippets, here's the Wikipedia article:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Commission_on_Human_Ri...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Commission_on_Human_Rights)

~~~
atsaloli
Here is one for you:

"In 1995 CCHR published the acclaimed book Psychiatrists: The Men Behind
Hitler."

[http://www.amazon.com/Psychiatrists-Behind-Hitler-Thomas-
Rod...](http://www.amazon.com/Psychiatrists-Behind-Hitler-Thomas-
Roder/dp/0964890917)

And another one:

"In 1999, members of the Council of Europe issued a resolution that recognized
psychiatrists as the architects of the ethnic cleansing and encouraged Council
members to 'study the material that has been put together and researched by
the French chapter of the Citizens Commission on Human Rights.'"

[http://assembly.coe.int/ASP/Doc/XrefViewHTML.asp?FileID=8785...](http://assembly.coe.int/ASP/Doc/XrefViewHTML.asp?FileID=8785&Language=EN)

~~~
chris_wot
Actually, the second citation you reference asserts that two psychiatrists
participated in and coordinated ethnic cleansing, implying that psychiatry was
the root cause. It states that eugenics is particularly stupid and unjust
(note that this is not a theory recognized in psychiatry) and it was issued as
a resolution made by merely three members. In other words, they lobbied a few
European politicians into making a statement about facts not necessarily in
evidence, in a very limited form to show tenuous conclusions not backed up by
any research whatsoever.

Awesome.

As for the book, you're using the peacock term "acclaimed" and cited an Amazon
product page. Not what I'd call a great citation.

This is the problem, of course, with citations. It exposes the hollowness of
ridiculous arguments by allowing all to see exactly the underpinning
assumptions behind statements and assertions.

This is why I invented [citation needed]. I appreciate you reminding me why I
did so.

~~~
atsaloli
Thank you. This is quite instructive.

What makes a great citation? The claim was that a book was published, and I
showed the book. Another claim was that a resolution was passed and I showed
the resolution. I thought I was doing well until I read chris's reply. :)

I will address chris's point that eugenics is not a theory recognized in
psychiatry.

1\. Forced sterilization of mental patients was done by social psychiatrists,
to improve society by removing the genetic material of mentally feeble and
insane.

Reference: Keeping America Sane: Psychiatry and Eugenics in the United States
and Canada, 1880-1940. Ian Robert Dowbiggin. 245 pp. Cornell University Press,
1997.

[http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/how-
psychiatr...](http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/how-psychiatry-
sought-asylum-from-the-insanity-of-eugenics)

[http://www.amazon.com/Keeping-America-Sane-
Psychiatry-1880-1...](http://www.amazon.com/Keeping-America-Sane-
Psychiatry-1880-1940/dp/0801483980)

2\. The following paper offers historical case studies of "psychiatric
genetics" and urges reflection on social psychiatry.

The Eugenic Legacy in Psychology and Psychiatry by David Pilgrim of Mental
Health Policy, University of Central Lancashire, UK

<http://isp.sagepub.com/content/54/3/272.abstract>

3\. What about "On human self-domestication, psychiatry, and eugenics" by
Martin Brüne in Philos Ethics Humanit Med. 2007; 2: 21.
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2082022/>

Am I doing better?

I want to thank chris for challenging me to contribute higher quality content.

~~~
chris_wot
I'm not denying awful things were one in the name f psychiatry, but these ate
the current state of the field/profession.

~~~
atsaloli
The current state of the "mental health" profession/field includes suffocating
patients in attachment therapy
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candace_Newmaker>), fraud
([http://www.justice.gov/usao/lae/news/2010/2010_08_19_maria_c...](http://www.justice.gov/usao/lae/news/2010/2010_08_19_maria_carmen_palazzo_plea.html)),
and rape ([http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/30/doctor-shock-
anti-g...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/30/doctor-shock-anti-gay-
doc_n_517663.html)).

Electric shock is still considered a valid form of therapy in the profession
([http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/electroconvulsive-
therapy/M...](http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/electroconvulsive-
therapy/MY00129)).

~~~
chris_wot
Extreme cases in a large profession does not mean the entire profession is
like the cases you cite. ECT is still considered a valid form of therapy
because it _is_ a valid form of therapy.

