
Open JDK has a lot to answer for - fogus
http://bluetrainsoftware.blogspot.com/2009/09/open-jdk-has-lot-to-answer-for.html
======
sad
I, for one, am quite happy to see Java take a back seat. It isn't the ideal
language to driving the future of the JVM. It's Scala, and Clojure, and
Groovy, and JRuby, and and and so many others that should be the driving
forces behind the JVM. Java can only benefit from those as C# has benefited
from the DLR and F#. As long as they don't let it atrophy into nothingness.

------
rbranson
Java isn't becoming irrelevant because Sun is neglecting it or plans to
neglect it. Java is becoming irrelevant because even though it's a great tool,
the community represents many of the things that passionate developers have
come to hate. Technology is progressing. Hardware is getting faster, virtual
machines are getting smarter. The original focus of Java, productivity and
simplicity, is now being found elsewhere.

~~~
elblanco
It also hasn't helped that Sun continued to do everything possible to make
Java hard to get for end users, and to completely and hopelessly break Java on
client systems. Java is relegated to server apps and cellphones now, neither
of which have as strong a requirement on "write once, run anywhere". Other
languages are closing fast on Java on server code and I've yet to see a mobile
java app that was as good as a natively compiled app.

Java is no longer "write once, run anywhere" anyways. It's more like "write
once, run anywhere that has the exact matching JRE with all the right updates,
and the correct version of the JRE w/r to being either some standard runtime,
or Java SE, ME, EE, ER or whatever the various versions are now."

Add to that a completely opaque and overly complicated VM distribution channel
for end users, forced downloads of unrelated software and toolbars, constant
barrage of update tooltips, a completely hosed standard library for developers
of desktop/client apps, and a general failure to improve the language with age
or listen to the community about language requirements and you have the
makings of a dying language.

We have to beg our developers to even think about using Java even for server
apps because the standard library and restrictive syntax is so lobotomizing to
users of other languages.

~~~
makecheck
Exactly right.

It'd been awhile since I downloaded Java, and I hadn't known about the Great
SE/ME/EE switchover™ at the time. I literally stared at their web pages,
navigated all over the place, and I couldn't figure out which version I should
have. Sun (excuse me, Oracle) needs a big fat "Download Java 1.7" button, that
has everything. They should fire everyone else in their marketing department.

~~~
elblanco
Oh, it's miserable. If they can't even explain what differentiates one from
the ta' other, they shouldn't have the options.

They also have too many things called "Java" that are really unrelated
technologies. Is Java on the server side (say JSP) the same as a Java client
app? Outside of similarities of language and libraries not really. All of the
frameworks are really different things. The language and the VM are different
things (both called Java). The entire platform is called Java.

In my view, Java should purely be a "kind of technology" or perhaps a
"particular software development pipeline/toolchain". Namely, Code in some
language that is compiled to bytecode designed to run in Sun's(Oracle's) VM
technology.

So instead of just packing in different kinds of cruft and slapping an obscure
two letter appendix to the title, they should really call them entirely
different things.

Sun/Oracle Client VM

Sun/Oracle Mobile VM

Sun/Oracle Server VM

Sun/Oracle IDE/Compiler/Libraries

There's no sense in packaging it up and calling that package "Java 7 SE R43"
or 1.7 or whatever insane marketing logic non-standard version scheme they're
using now.

End users download Sun/Oracle Client VM. Period.

Server admins download Sun/Oracle Server VM. Period.

Mobile VM shouldn't even be a download, it should just be included on all
phones that can run it (like it basically is now anyways).

Developers download The IDE/Compiler/and Language Libraries. Heck, they
compiler and library toolchain should really just come with the branded IDE.

The VMs don't really change that much. The standard library shouldn't change
that much (if the Java team could ever get their act together and write
reasonable interfaces to common things like I/O and hurry up and deprecate bad
design decisions). And the class libraries for Client VMs and Server VMs are
ultimately very different anyways.

The names should be clear and make sense. SE/EE/ME/whatever doesn't help
anybody. Client VM, Server VM, Mobile VM does. It _used_ to be this simple,
but then they let the monkeys in to the packaging process.

~~~
kburn
You should use "JVM". But other than that you should get a job as Sun's
marketing department.

------
veritgo
He seems to be saying that Sun's stance will be let the Open JDK develop, and
roll that into the official package.

I thought this would be good news. Sun has a shaky future and a lot of people
use Java. The more control of it the community has the better.

