
Pasco, Florida’s predictive policing system monitors and harasses residents - kaydub
https://www.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/police-pasco-sheriff-targeted/intelligence-led-policing/
======
csilverman
“Last summer, the Sheriff’s Office announced plans to begin keeping tabs on
people who have been repeatedly committed to psychiatric hospitals.”

People are going to die because of that.

There is a close friend of mine who, if unlucky enough to live in that
hellhole, would have her life made miserable by this. She’s a nurse who’s
never committed a crime in her life. She’s also bipolar, suicidal, deals with
major depression, and has a less-than-supportive family, so she’s been
committed a few times. Being harassed by hyperzealous cops who think they’re
fighting terrorists is exactly the sort of thing that could push her over the
edge.

I think—and hope—that this is what does them in. It should never have gotten
to this point, but they can wave around terms like “reduced crime” and as long
as it’s just the bad guys who are being targeted, no one cares.

But I suspect there will be a point soon enough where the sheriff here will
find himself answering questions about why his department drove to suicide a
mentally ill person with no criminal record, and I hope to god the resulting
consequences put an end to this un-American madness, here and everywhere else.

~~~
pigscantfly
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but my father has been practicing civil
rights law in central Florida for several decades now, and he's brought
multiple lawsuits against police departments there which are very similar to
the situation you're describing. In one instance, a young mother with anorexia
and mental health issues died after a 300-pound corrections officer sat on her
to 'calm her down' until she asphyxiated in her jail cell with multiple broken
ribs. This was all recorded on video. She'd been arrested for something along
the lines of making a disturbance related to her psychological problems.

There have never been any systemic changes implemented as a result of these
lawsuits. If the case goes 'well', the department will pay restitution to
surviving family members, but damages for police negligence are tightly capped
in Florida, and the department will frequently attribute full blame to the
individual officer in question rather than give the impression of general
negligence or training problems, which are some of the very narrow means of
avoiding the damages cap and making them actually take notice. My impression
is that most departments in central Florida treat these cases as the cost of
doing business, which is extremely depressing and also indicative of how the
cops down there actually feel and act, unfortunately.

~~~
sudosysgen
Someone needs to leak that video.

~~~
js2
A similar situation occurred in Rochester NY in March. Police called on a guy
who was acting out, possibly due to having ingested PCP earlier. He was
obeying the officers commands and had been handcuffed, but was acting
erratically by spitting at them. So they put a "spit hood" over his head, then
held him to the ground until he passed out and his heart stopped. Nothing
about how the police responded is humane.

It's all on video:

[https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2020/09/02/d...](https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2020/09/02/daniel-
prude-rochester-ny-police-died-march-2020-after-officers-restrained-
him/5682948002/)

------
Shengbo
Halfway into the article it started reminding me of the informant networks of
the USSR. Officers peeping through windows, feeding data into the system about
the target's friends and family while also fining them for any unrelated
arbitrary misdemeanor. This is not what crime prevention looks like in a
democracy.

~~~
jacobush
Except this surveillance machine is even more stupid. The USSR was at least
ostensibly protecting its power structure from internal opposition.

These floridian police are basically grooming kids to become criminals by
giving them records and harassing their families until they fall unto
hardship.

~~~
HarryHirsch
_These floridian police are basically grooming kids to become criminals_

What if that was the point? The system is making work to justify its continued
existence. The police aren't working for you, they are working for the
sheriff, and these interest do not match.

~~~
non-entity
This is a sherrif too, so they're elected, not neccesarily by any sort of
experience or merit.

Nobody likes to hear it, but I'm willing to bet this person has been in office
for a while. Tough on crime is popular among "model citizen" voters even if it
utilizes dystopic tactics.

~~~
baq
what if people who could run against this guy in an election turned out to
have high risk pasco profiles?

~~~
pchristensen
Their grass might be 1/4" too long, or they might not have numbers on their
mailbox (examples of justification for police harassment from the article).

------
Puts
Don't miss the disturbing bodycam footage that's linked from within the
article:

[https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/p...](https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/police-
pasco-sheriff-targeted/body-cam-footage/)

~~~
jcomis
These cops are straight up gangsters.

~~~
hangonhn
This is an interesting observation because historically in East Asia the two
are treated as a continuum. It's not uncommon to see former criminals or gangs
being employed to fight other criminals in pre-modern China. A similar
practice survives even to this day in Japan.

~~~
alexilliamson
The Act of Killing is an incredibly interesting/disturbing documentary about
this in Indonesia.

------
okennedy
> The Sheriff’s Office said its program was designed to reduce bias in
> policing by using objective data.

Data is no more objective than the people collecting or analyzing it.

~~~
giantg2
This is very true.

The first lesson in any data science program covers the explict and implicit
biases as well as the difference between correlation and causation. It seems
the people involved in this system dont even have this basic knowledge.

~~~
snarf21
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

~~~
giantg2
There's also 3 kinds of liars: you, me, and everyone else.

------
elliekelly
This is just absolutely stunning. I simply cannot believe this is happening in
a democratic country.

~~~
wizzwizz4
It's not. Many of the people who are targeted lose voting privileges.

~~~
dillondoyle
Florida is heinous. Statewide voted overwhelmingly to restore rights to
returning citizens in a constitutional amendment.

Then, Republicans who control the state leg & Gov. DeSantis passed a poll-tax
which virtually excludes 1 million or more citizens who served their time from
voting. It's disgusting. It's being litigated but it's too late for this
election.... They passed the law a couple weeks before a previous election the
timing was on purpose.

There is no statewide easy system/paperwork for most of these citizens to even
know how much they owe in ridiculous court fees etc. Let alone it seems a vast
majority can't afford to pay if they are able to ever find out. It's
indentured servitude to a criminal system (i'm calling the state the criminal
in that sentence).

I feel so hopeless about our country. I work in politics. I used to feel
optimistic and good about the work we/I have accomplished and making
incremental progress. But over the last two years I've grown _this_ close to
completely giving up - which feels disgusting. I hate that we've strayed this
far. It feels intentional and as someone with a relatively large amount of
power I feel virtually powerless.

~~~
wizzwizz4
If you can, start a blog. Don't put sensational stuff on it, just… write your
thoughts. The laws going on, how you feel about it, that kind of thing.

If you can provide more transparency to your citizens, even if it's just a
public diary… either it'll help solve the problems, or it'll help the
revolution start a day earlier. (Which depends entirely on whether the people
we've trusted with power start using it for the things we gave them the power
to do.)

------
mattdeboard
Institutionalized & normalized patterns of emotional abuse. This sheriff is
running his department like an abusive & controlling spouse/father.

------
kristopolous
Every time I read these, it's just horrible science and bad math

"The Sheriff’s Office said its program was designed to reduce bias in policing
by using objective data. And it provided statistics showing a decline in
burglaries, larcenies and auto thefts since the program began in 2011."

Oh really? Where's your control? What did you control for? What were the other
factors?

Perhaps it's the same as everywhere else. Maybe people feel more intimidated
so they don't report crime. These measurements are self reported and after
more intimidation and fear perhaps there's less self reporting...

It's unqualified people making incompetent assessments and unilaterally
dictating public policy with gobs of taxpayer money to do it. Just atrocious

~~~
pchristensen
The article says the 7 surrounding counties experienced similar drops in
property crime, and Pasco (the subject of the article) was the only one where
violent crime increased.

~~~
kristopolous
Yes, thank you to the journalists for not letting that slide. We should
probably be doing more than just claiming the reasoning is faulty and invalid
on some websites though

------
nlbrown
Where are the "good guys" fighting against this sort of oppression? Are they
relegated to coding encrypted messaging apps or is there a strong network of
technologists who are working on legal ways to foil these types of systems?

~~~
BrianOnHN
For one, developers can gain some morality and stop working for these
companies.

There will always be someone to replace them, but you'll certainly slow down
the progress.

------
sandworm101
In all honesty, in such situations where persons have become the target of
focused policing, it may be time to move cities. Or even move states. Being
"in the system" is not a crime but if cops are poking around your house on a
weekly/daily basis an incident is inevitable. The time to move is prior to
that moment.

This may look like defeat. It is. At the larger scale this would mean cops are
running certain people out of town. That is evil. But at the scale of an
individual or family, particularly when mental health is an issue, what is
best is to not be involved in an escalating situation. Pull up stakes and move
somewhere with less oppressive policies.

~~~
throwaway0a5e
MLK had a quote about injustice that seems highly relevant to this kind of
thing.

I would prefer to fight the fires where they start. There are half a dozen
states barreling toward a cliff because a generation of Californian's were
told "just leave if you don't like it" (and if you don't like that example I
could just as easily come up with an East coast one). Price out a condo in
Denver if you don't believe me.

~~~
artofgo
Could you expand on what you mean exactly by your barreling quote?

~~~
pchristensen
I assume they meant "barreling towards the exact same problems and policies
that make California an unlivable hellhole today." That's usually the context
when people talk about Californians migrating to other Western states.

~~~
artofgo
Ah alright. Thanks.

------
rootsudo
"The Pasco Sheriff’s Office won a $95,000 federal grant to upgrade its
computer systems and hired a small team of civilian analysts. "

I joke, but somehow I think this means a Google Maps license and 3 analysts to
copy/paste reports.

------
kaydub
To everyone saying the title was sensationalized and that it's only one county
in Florida, I welcome you to come visit my state.

This kind of stuff is widespread in Florida. Sheriff Gualtieri, Grady Judd,
Billy Woods, Darryl Daniels, ex Sheriff Mike Scott, Ric Bradshaw, and I could
go on and on and on.

Look across the vast swaths of rural land in the landlocked parts of Florida
and you'll find the only industry are prisons and policing.

~~~
dang
The title you submitted ("Florida is a police state") badly broke the HN
guideline against editorializing in titles:

" _Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don 't
editorialize._"

Accounts that do that eventually lose submission privileges, so please don't
do that. If you want to offer your interpretation of the article or the facts,
that's totally fine, but do it in the comments, so your view is on a level
playing field with everyone else's. On HN, being the one to submit a story
doesn't confer any special rights over it. This is important because titles
have by far the biggest influence.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
8bitsrule
Posted article sez: "Then it sends deputies to find and interrogate anyone
whose name appears, often without probable cause, a search warrant or evidence
of a specific crime.... They mostly grilled him about his friends..."

 _A Law Professor Explains Why You Should Never Talk to Police_
[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mvkgnp/law-professor-
poli...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mvkgnp/law-professor-police-
interrogation-law-constitution-survival)

"you are legally obligated to tell the cop your name and what you're doing at
that very moment. Other than that, Duane says, you should fall back on four
short words: "I want a lawyer."

------
jdechko
I was thinking this sounded a lot like Minority Report. Then the article said
that this was designed to be exactly like Minority Report. Talk about missing
the moral of the story.

It’s like reading the Lorax and coming away with the idea that the environment
should be exploited for profit.

~~~
pchristensen
Also, in Minority Report, they stopped violent crime in the act - the person
had gotten to the point where they were actually going to commit it. This
article is about messing up the lives of suspects and their families to
"prevent" them from committing unknown, undisclosed crimes at some point in
the future.

------
michaelcampbell
Something along these lines graced HN's front page recently, but I'll repeat
my comment from there: Read "Weapons of Math Destruction" by Cathy O'Neil.
Truly frightening.

------
tobltobs
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung)

~~~
anigbrowl
They're fascists, but it's a poor comparison because the SA didn't have _de
jure_ police powers.

~~~
tobltobs
"De jure" was breaking down in the Weimarer republic like it is in the US
today.

------
oh_sigh
Should there be a law that you can't use unrelated laws or violations in order
to compel otherwise legal behavior?

------
cameronsr
"...Strategic Targeted Area Response teams, or STAR teams..."

Welcome to Raccoon City (Florida)...

------
platetone
top notch original photography in that article.

------
srtjstjsj
Flamebait editorialized title.

Article is about Pasco County.

~~~
aeontech
@dang, is there a chance the title could be de-clickbaited?

~~~
alistairSH
Why, the title is literally what the system is doing?

~~~
non-entity
It is now, orginally the story was submitted with a title along the lines of
"Florida is a police state".

------
sakebomb
Here is the main header rather than the baited title:

Pasco’s sheriff created a futuristic program to stop crime before it happens.

It monitors and harasses families across the county.

~~~
bergstromm466
> Pasco’s sheriff created a futuristic program to stop crime before it
> happens.

That title would not be critical at all. This is about surveillance tech and
systemic oppression. I think the title is very fitting.

 _" As they make checks, deputies feed information back into the system, not
just on the people they target, but on family members, friends and anyone else
in the target’s orbit.

In the past two years alone, two of the nation’s largest law enforcement
agencies have scrapped similar programs following public outcries and reports
documenting serious flaws."_

and

 _" Criminal justice experts said they were stunned by the agency’s practices.
They compared the tactics to child abuse, mafia harassment and surveillance
that could be expected under an authoritarian regime."_

~~~
mc32
I agree it’s state surveillance and would say systemic harassment and
intimidation but I don’t see the oppression angle.

~~~
jacobush
When the stated goal is to make people move out of the county, how much more
do you need to label it oppression?

~~~
mc32
That wasn’t the stated goal. That was how a deputy characterized it. A civil
rights lawyer on the other hand characterized it as harassment.

------
gwbas1c
This is a great article; it just needs a better title on Hacker News.

------
MariuszGalus
home sweet home

------
goodluckchuck
It's odd how their poster-boy was arrested for stealing a motorized bicycle
out of someone's carport. That's far from murder, but not exactly an indicator
that the teen is headed on the right path. Seems to be exactly the kind of
person who may need some guidance.

Then the author conspicuously leaves out important information. They say
targets are selected based on information about their family, but doesn't go
into the teen's parent's criminal history. If his father's in prison and his
mom has a serious record, and now he's heading down the same path.. that's
relevant and necessary information.

It also says the police visited his house 20+ times and they often stop at
people's houses without a warrant... but they don't actually say that the
police stopped at _his_ house 20+ times without a warrant/reason. They just
hope the reader will assume that.

Definitely casting the story in the light they want to cast it in, and
omitting exculpatory evidence.

~~~
zentiggr
It sounds an awful lot more like you're trying to find any sliver of "this
isn't so bad" and "but they didn't tell ALL the facts so BIAS" when the report
goes over many many other stories in detail and shows how many of them are
worse than your cherry picked poster boy example.

This department, this sheriff, and everyone associated with the data entry for
this whole program need to be removed from any law enforcement / security
positions anywhere, and really should be required to see a therapist
themselves for agreeing to contribute to this kind of harassment against
others.

