
Ask HN: Is passion a fair thing to ask for from an employee? - rameshnid
I mean when you are a startup and can't make decent payments as salaries, can one really expect the developer to be passionate? Or maybe it's because I am based out of a third world country where salary trumps everything. Or am I dealing with the wrong set of people.
======
chime
* If you want low performance, give me low money.

* If you want high performance, give me high money.

* If you want loyalty/passion, give me equity/profit sharing.

You can buy my performance i.e. time with money. You can buy my passion i.e.
commitment with reciprocation. If you give me typical market wages without
profit sharing, don't expect anything beyond typical performance without
commitment.

~~~
rkalla
There are some excellent studies out there that suggest this to be false.

One source[1] showed that:

\- For highly creative jobs, respect and autonomy to function and just enough
$ to cover comfortable living expenses produced the best results.

\- As you add more money, the performance for these jobs decreased.

AND

\- For highly repetitive jobs, performance increased with pay almost linearly.

\- Offering more autonomy for lower pay in these types of jobs lowered
performance.

Programming is a highly creative job. While you are making very logical
assumptions (more $ == more work) I would argue that after the first month or
so, that would no longer be the case.

You would then just be equating (more $ == more HOURS working) but not
necessarily producing.

The findings of the study did hinge on the person seeking autonomy to make
enough to cover their living expenses such that the concern for money was _off
the table_.

Really interesting stuff.

I think from my own experience, after the honeymoon period of the giant
paycheck wears off, this tends to be absolutely true.

As for passion, it has to come from the top down.

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/Drive-Surprising-Truth-About-
Motivates...](http://www.amazon.com/Drive-Surprising-Truth-About-
Motivates/dp/1594484805/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312151498&sr=8-1)

Thanks to yengz for the reminder where this study came from!

~~~
bugsy
The "excellent studies", which engineering management uses to claim that low
salaries, but enough to survive, are optimal, are a crock. Where are the top
CEOs making just enough to survive?

Here is the flaw. If you are properly compensated and don't have any other
options, giving you a big fat raise doesn't improve your productivity, that's
true and that's what the studies measure. Hey are you a developer? Here's an
extra ten bucks, will you now come up with a better algorithm? No, of course
not, because money doesn't make you a better developer, just as paying
existing public school teachers more doesn't make them any less severely
incompetent.

However, if you want to attract more productive people in the first place, you
have to pay them more money because there is a competitive environment. The
"excellent studies" try to prevent readers from noticing that that's not what
they looked into, and it's clear they do this intentionally.

Do you think that Google would attract the same caliber of developers by
paying what McDonalds pays its line workers? You must believe that if you
really believe that these studies are correct in their claims that there is no
advantage to paying more than survival wages.

The simple fact is that sustenance wages are not in fact ideal for attracting
the best developers, designers, writers, actors and inventors.

If you don't recognize that, but continue to insist that the opposite is true,
then you are intentionally seeking to deceive people.

~~~
microarchitect
I think you're conflating wages for "comfortable living" with "sustenance"
wages.

~~~
bugsy
Mmmm, the actual amount isn't all that relevant to the argument. But as far as
"comfortable living" goes, the average $90,000 salary in Silicon Valley, minus
the high California tax burden, does not provide "comfortable living" when a
run down 3 bedroom home costs on average $860,000, vastly above the ability of
said $90,000 wage earner to afford. It barely provides sustenance living. This
is why many of these average paid developers have 3-4 hour commutes from far
away, and others are living packed 5 to a room, and few are able to attract a
mate.

This is completely a different topic from the discussion though so I'd prefer
not to continue with it, if you would like to, it would be best to start a new
thread.

Developers in many other parts of the country can live comfortably with an
average wage. But watch out if you get sick. Sickness is for the rich. As we
found out last month, if you are a long term employee at Microsoft and you get
brain cancer, they give you a bad review and then declare you ineligible for
disability benefits. Shouldn't have gotten cancer!

My idea of comfortable living is you can afford a house, to marry, and to
afford health care. Others may disagree, but I don't consider that to be even
worth debating.

~~~
microarchitect
I'm not disagreeing with anything you said but my understanding of the studies
that rkalla is talking about is that the extra $$$ won't make your life
significantly better so you'd be willing to forgo that money for "better" (I'm
being intentionally vague here) work. Obviously, in the situation you're
referring to the extra money makes a big difference in quality of life.

Perhaps you're suggesting that there are no cases where this is true? (i.e.,
one will always be happier with the extra $$$).

------
mtviewdave
Define "passion". Do you mean:

1\. Someone who will respond to your above-and-beyond commitment to them (in
compensation, tools, respect, etc.) with above-and-beyond results?

2\. Someone who will give above-and-beyond results even when given lousy
tools, a poor work environment, unrealistic expectations, and mediocre
compensation?

#1 is fair to ask. #2 is not.

~~~
jarrettcoggin
I second this.

In my experience at a previous company, they upgraded every developer and QA
engineer's workspace to have high-end hardware and dual 24" monitors
(1920x1200, not the 1080p BS). Previously barely-missed deadlines were
practically eliminated, better employee morale appeared, more innovative ideas
started appearing, and various other things showed up.

All in all, this convinced me and I'm a firm believer in giving employees
great tools and freedom to approach things in their own way. It shows that the
company cares about you, and that goes a long way with employees and their
performance backs that up.

------
danilocampos
I'm not sure that passion is something to _ask for_ as much as it is something
to _look for_.

Even making shitty wages, I can't hide my passion for my work. When I was 15,
bagging groceries and helping people load up their cars, I couldn't restrain
my passion for doing things well, and that was $6 an hour. If I'm getting paid
something approaching a reasonable wage while working on my true creative
passions of UI/UX? Forget about it — I'm on fire.

So I think it's worthwhile to look for people who have that energy. With the
caveat that such energy has value and if you can't provide full-market cash
compensation you need to make up for it with a cocktail of other benefits like
flexibility, autonomy, work environment, equity, great employee-selected tools
and indulgence/encouragement for people's specific ambitions.

------
microarchitect
I suspect you might be from India, so let me tell about a few things that
bugged me about life as software developer in Bangalore.

I don't mind being paid below market but I definitely need something to make
up for this. You could this (following in no particular order): (1) profit
sharing (2) equity (3) a higher-than-market level of responsibility for a
given experience level and (4) interesting work.

The other thing is that every time I start a new position I'm full of
excitement and passion but this excitement drains out of me pretty quickly
thanks to terrible decision making by the management, my discovery that I got
lowballed on my offer or by others in the team being hired at levels
disproportionate to their ability, or by my being forced to work on something
completely different from what I promised when I was made the offer, or my
discovery that the management are bunch of penny-wise pound-foolish
cheapskates.

The TLDR here is that you need to be honest and extremely fair in your
dealings. Always ask yourself whether you'd want to continue if you were in
the employees position.

Don't ever fall into the trap of thinking that you are doing the employee a
favor by giving them a job. Anybody worth hiring can pretty much get an offer
with a phone call or two in the current hiring market.

~~~
rameshnid
Yes. We are based out of Mumbai. And the thing is we are offering everything
mentioned on your list. I find the Indian developer to be more concerned about
the salary.

The other issues you mentioned could be true in our case. We did give more
responsibility to an inexperienced developer who has shown great initiative.

A good developer with commitment or a better developer who is all over the
place?

Honestly development as a career is very hard, I have seen a lot of developers
who cannot switch off, or focus on solving a specific problem. I think passion
to solve a problem sometimes makes it easy for a developer to work on
something for a decent amount of time and not try hacking the nxt shiny thing
around.

------
ChristianMarks
I was passionate myself. Then a new non-technical VP was hired, and three of
six directors were moved under the non-technical director the VP promoted. My
title, and those of the others, went from director to Zweiter Beauftragter fur
Administrative Fragen. Our job descriptions changed beyond recognition, for
"flexibility", we were informed. My new supervisor informed me that I "solved
my own problems"--a bad thing, apparently--and that I was "limited by what I
know." I was required to attend unbelievably boring "change management"
meetings, in which the entire department got to listen to the ephemera of
Windows system administurbation and discuss the cleaning of digital bed pans.
Whatever passion I had evaporated. I left a couple months later.

------
vladd
Being a good manager in the startup field is an extraordinary difficult thing
to do.

Here's an awesome TED talk that you can watch which is a good introduction in
the field - <http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html> \- it shows
that performance in creative fields can decrease when the payout is greater.

Salary is just one factor in job satisfaction, there are lots of other ways,
most of them cheaper from a costs perspective, which can improve the "mood".
Here's a list:

    
    
      - equity
      - 20% time (autonomy to work on self-driven projects)
      - a perceived notion of fairness (i.e. no bozos as managers,
      promotions done right on merit and payout/hierarchy that
      correlates with the actual job performance, not politics)
      - free drinks/food/catering (or at least joint cafeteria area
      for lunch bonding/discussions)
      - awesome hardware
      - high employee/manager ratio to avoid micro-management
      - a tech ladder allowing growth without becoming a manager

------
crikli
I think it depends on whether an employer views passion as a character trait
or a byproduct. The distinction is very important.

I'm an employer (and a programmer) and I view passion as a byproduct of
developers being properly incentivized to do something they find fascinating.

That incentive varies from programmer to programmer. Incentives can be cash,
equity, profit sharing, flexible hours, encouragement and recognition, kick-
ass equipment, a steady supply of new tech toys to play with, paid time and
travel to conferences, etc.

The second aspect, of course, the truly hard one, is keeping people
fascinated. Everything gets boring as hell eventually. As an employer I
actually find this harder than determining what incentives people respond to
because I'm personally aware of how quickly programmers get bored.

~~~
trafficlight
Do you try to keep your programmers interested for long periods of time? Or do
you think that every programmer has a finite amount of time at your company
and that they will move on after a few years?

~~~
crikli
Well, I've only been in my own business for three years and employing for not
yet a couple so I don't really know yet.

The job I had before I started this business I always told my superiors that
after three years a dev was going to start getting "the itch." I was only at
that job for 4.5 years so I don't have the experience to know what really
happens, but I did see guys start getting wanderlust at about three year, plus
or minus. But I always felt that had more to do with unclear opportunities for
growth, "just ok" equipment, and an uninspiring salary increase schedule.

So...I don't know. My gut says most will move on.

------
trafficlight
I was passionate for a previous employer, but they burned it out of me. Their
inability to make decisions and leaps necessary to really be successful ate
away at me. Those things affected me personally, and as an employee, that just
can't happen. It's not worth it.

~~~
rameshnid
I can emapathize with that. I do believe that could be the case with my team.
Some of the guys came from another startup where they were not equity holders.

Does this happen a lot in the industry. If it does happen frequently then it
makes more sense for a honest founder to always recruit/ collaborate with
younger programmers.

------
veyron
You can't ask for passion from an employee unless you are giving them a
meaningful equity stake or paying above market rates. Quite frankly, if you
dont give a good stake or a great salary, employees won't naturally feel like
going the extra mile.

In my experience, most employees feel that pushing themselves won't actually
accrete any value to themselves, and that really kills any sort of passion.

------
sjs
Good people are often passionate to begin with. If they lose their passion
that's probably the fault of their employer.

If they're not passionate to begin with maybe they need to be motivated. Money
does it for some people but it's not everything. Interest is very important
too.

------
egypturnash
Sell me on your project, infect me with your own passion for it. (You _do_
have a lot of belief in your project, right? It's not just something you think
might work, maybe? If your idea is mediocre and you know it then this ain't
gonna happen.)

Then pay me enough to make it worth my while. I have my own projects that I'm
passionate about and there's so many hours in the day; every minute I'm
spending working on your idea is a minute I'm deferring my own visions. You
want me to pour my time into your idea? I'd better get more than just enough
money to live on - I want to be able to not worry about looking for work for a
while after I'm done with your project, so I can spend my time working on my
own stuff that matters intensely to me and me alone. If you can't give me tons
of money then I'd better have a serious stake in the eventual profits, and
you'd better not want me to work on it for very long.

------
blader
Passion isn't something your employees can just choose to give you once asked,
but it is something you can choose to give them by providing a meaningful
purpose, the opportunity to learn new things, and the freedom to do great
work.

~~~
Qa8BBatwHxK8Pu
> Passion isn't something your employees can just choose to give you once
> asked

funny many organizations extort that level of commitment from its workers. for
a short time "obey me or get fired" may work, but in long term it'll kill the
workspace morale, motivation and innovation.

------
rkalla
I don't think it is a fair thing to _ask_ for, but it is certainly a fair
thing for you to _look_ for.

It is the job of the company to impart passion, set an example and hold on to
the people that get behind the company vision.

Without that vision or passion from the founders, none of the employees will
have it and you are left with salary trumping everything (because there is
nothing else, except maybe a small group of people you like hanging out with).

If you are passionate and convey that clearly, passion will trump salary for
the right people, and those are the ones you want on your team.

------
pnathan
"can't make decent payments as salaries"

Yeah, that's a dealbreaker. I need to pay my bills. If you can't do that,
sorry, but I have to keep my housing.

------
MattLaroche
Passion cannot be faked. And you can't buy true passion. Even if someone
offered me $10 billion a year to do something, I'd be passionate about the
money and not about my job (well, unless my job is interesting). As others
have said, if you can't give high base pay, give equity. Heck, give equity
anyway. Ownership helps with passion.

Give someone interesting an interesting problem. Don't hire assholes (in fact,
fire assholes). Create a community where genuine mistakes aren't a big deal to
their employment (and avoid cover your ass) and the passion will come. Support
creativity, support big ideas, support some of the random, one off ideas that
come out of creative people (easter eggs, hack weeks) and it'll pay for
itself.

------
capdiz
Being from a third world country myself it is really difficult. Its even worse
if your society is really corrupt. First its difficult to trade equity coz
everyone is out to make an easy buck and its really hard to believe anyone
however genuine they look or sound. Second, most third world countries are
cash driven economies no credit cards and shit. But there is hope if you (or
to) find someone who really believes in your idea. Its basicaly a hard sale.
Best option is to build a very good reputation at Uni/college or your first
workplace. Guaranteed, even if your idea is wack, your rep will get you the
best employees/co-founders at minimal cost.

------
bugsy
"can't make decent payments as salaries"

Conversation doesn't really need to go beyond this point. It's like asking
"Should my woman cook and clean for me even though I beat her each day?"
Really, the cooking and cleaning is not the issue in that conversation.

------
jkmcf
In my experience, you can grow and retain quality people with compensation,
practices, and other incentives, but you won't make them passionate about
their job this way.

There's passion about what you do (passionate about their field, tools), and
passion about what you are doing (healthcare, education, making money). These
are high energy, all-in types who live their jobs. They are also few in
numbers.

You can hire and fire based on displayed passion, but I'm not sure it can be
taught. They either have it or they don't.

Also, don't confuse passion with work ethic, which is (probably) equally
valuable, but more of a character trait that can be applied to many different
things.

------
pshapiro
Why would you want passion? The thing you should look for is interest. Passion
only means that they don't have the necessary information to tell if what they
are doing is reckless or not.

~~~
rameshnid
Interesting.let me clarify my case. What I have seen so far is that most
developers around want to ship 3 products a year for 3 different industries.
They are all over the place. Cannot commit to solving a specific problem for a
specific industry for an extended period of time.

So my thinking is maybe if the guys are passionate about the problem/ industry
and not just interested in learning to do a lot of stuff, we would have a
better shot at succeeding.

Correct me if there is a flaw in my understanding.

------
dougws
There is a meaningful distinction to be made between passion about programming
and passion about your product. The former is probably a necessity for good
programmers, while the latter might not be necessary and might be hard to
maintain without granting equity and/or having a really, really cool product.

------
rush-tea
If you are hiring in a 3rd world country, be careful as the law is not with
you. A competitor can buy your developer code and run away with it without you
are not being able to do anything about it.

so yeah, in 3rd world country, to be passionate and motivated, money mostly
talks. Sad but true

------
tayip9
This might fit in with Dan Pink's talk on 'Drive':

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc>

Passion can be driven by incentives outside of salary.

~~~
bugsy
I haven't watched all of those RSA videos but I've seen quite a few. It's
amazing how every one I have seen is outlandish propaganda that it seems no
one would fall for, yet I stand completely alone in this viewpoint.

------
petervandijck
I think it's a fair thing to _look for_ in an employee. Who you hire is up to
you.

------
trevelyan
Are you hiring an expat or a local? Which country?

------
molecule
If the market supports it.

------
RandallBrown
I think it's probably a required thing for every employee.

~~~
rameshnid
I know. But is it really true, I fail to understand how a developer can be
passionate about some business and yet launch 2-5 products a year. Is that
passion for the business/ industry or passion to develop skills?

Most of the good programmers do it, right? Work on 4 products a year in
multiple industries.

Should you hire someone who is passionate about the cause or one who is
passionate about code(read growth/career)

~~~
RandallBrown
Obviously both is best, but you're not always going to find someone passionate
about the business. You should never compromise on finding someone passionate
about the code though.

------
shriphani
In return you must offer:

1\. Access to CS literature (any lit. not just titles specific to the field
we're in). 2\. Encouragement for improving skills. 3\. A culture that promotes
interaction between people. 4\. Machines that are fast, build quickly. 5\.
Willing to pay for a personal license to dev-tools. 6\. Provide a very small
percentage of company time to drop the main task at hand and pick up something
completely unrelated to hack on.

This should be sufficient to ensure that your employees value their jobs and
would rather continue than leave.

