
Irony is ruining our culture - mrrrgn
http://www.salon.com/2014/04/13/david_foster_wallace_was_right_irony_is_ruining_our_culture/
======
hansy
And as always, something else came along to fill the void: comedy. Shows like
"The Daily Show", artists like Louis C.K., and even web comics like "Dinosaur
Comics" now do the job irony allegedly left behind of revealing the
hypocrisies and absurdities of the modern world.

~~~
pjscott
Because you mentioned Dinosaur Comics, I suppose someone needs to find a
relevant one and link to it. Like relevant xkcd linking, except less
mainstream.

[http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=166](http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=166)

------
dfc
It is remarkable how diluted the word irony has become. More often than not it
seems that people think "irony" is _serendipity 's evil twin_. The definition
of "random" has also suffered a similar impotence by pervasiveness. It is not
uncommon to hear casual conversations where the words random and ironic are
used interchangeably.

The next word on the semantic extinction watchlist is literally. If you ask
google for the definition of literally you are presented with two senses of
the word:

    
    
      1:         in a literal manner or sense; exactly.
      informal:  used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true.
    

Sooner than later "informal" will be replaced with "2." and literally will
literally mean not literally.

~~~
pash
Where did the phrase "serendipity's evil twin" come from?

9 results:
[https://www.google.com/search?&q=%22serendipity%27s+evil+twi...](https://www.google.com/search?&q=%22serendipity%27s+evil+twin%22&oq=%22serendipity%27s+evil+twin%22)

~~~
dfc
This is just my observation of the current definition of the word. I do not
know if I unwittingly stole it from someone. I did not see this result in the
list of google hits:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6786082](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6786082)

~~~
pash
It's a striking phrase, but not quite right. ... If you can recognize the way
in which it is not quite right, I think you will have recognized the genius of
the attempt.

~~~
dfc
I do not understand how my opinion can be judged "not quite right"? This is my
impression of the concept people seem to have in mind when they use the word
irony. I am not saying this is the definition of irony.

"From what I can tell most people's definition is something between
'serendipity's evil twin' and 'partially related.'" \--dfc[1]

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6786082](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6786082)

~~~
pash
One may have opinions about opinions.

------
tootie
This is all just symptomatic and the informalization of society. Seinfeld was
snarky and shallow, but it was ultimately about laughing at social faux pas.
We're rapidly running out of things that are morally acceptable but socially
unacceptable.

~~~
sp332
Have you tried watching the show Royal Pains? It was hard for me to get
through an episode because everyone was just incredibly awkward all the time.
I don't think we're really running low on that kind of thing.

------
leephillips
I have to admit I only made it about half way through this, by which time it
seemed to me that the authors had little more grasp of the concept of irony
than Alanis Morissette.

Irony is neither cynicism nor snark. It is an indispensable aspect of most
forms of written expression; it is almost impossible to write a successful
work of opinion or fiction of any length without mastering this classical tool
of rhetoric.

Where would Shakespeare be without irony? And what of the ancient Greeks? It's
not modern, it is a connection with our heritage.

~~~
lifeformed
I think you're just nitpicking here. You could replace the word "irony" with
"X" and the intentions of the author may come through more clearly. Here's not
saying "all irony is bad", he's saying modern culture has been permeated to
the core with sarcasm and cynicism, to the point that no one knows what anyone
actually wants or likes anymore. It's a call for sincerity.

~~~
falsecelaona
Is it not the case that people are resorting to cynicism and sarcasm as a way
to deal with not being wrong? When we're punished for mistakes like we are,
doesn't it encourage this testing of the symbolic electric fence to find
what's acceptable to another without the commitment?

That's what I see from those people whose personality is like shifting sands
that mimics anyone or thing around them to remain safe.

------
vezzy-fnord
See also: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-
postmodernism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-postmodernism)

I'd hardly say we're in a post-postmodern stage, though... whatever the fuck
that means, I'm assuming it's a reactionary stage against postmodernism, which
would make it plain modernism.

~~~
leoc
We've been in a post-pomo world since 9/11: see [http://www.bruno-
latour.fr/sites/default/files/89-CRITICAL-I...](http://www.bruno-
latour.fr/sites/default/files/89-CRITICAL-INQUIRY-GB.pdf) if you doubt this.
What's odd is someone dusting off the irony-is-killing-us essay template again
after a decade of stridency and self-assurance.

~~~
pradocchia
That's an interesting piece. You can see how some lines of thought have become
verboten in respectable society. This era might be considered the Rise of Fear
and the Return of Authority.

------
Bulkington
Irony is an exercise in cleverness.

I can speak only about US pop culture, but to consider Stewart and Colbert,
clever and amusing as they are, in the avant garde of political thought is
scary.

Facile isn't wise, and for some reason wisdom is now (maybe always?) deemed
boring.

Too much television, too much Web distraction. Turn it all off. Twitter,
Facebook, football, futbol, campaign ads, dot dot dot.

Give me something useful: The Weather Channel and porn, in moderation.

It's difficult to think deeply about complex issues. And arguably meaningless.
Still...

Jeez, I'm a codger. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Irony is a sedative. Absurdity requires revolt. Pass the bong. One more hit
before I study for finals.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus)

EDIT: Not unusually, I popped off before reading the post. I'm not a DFW
fanboy, but I've found everything of his I've ever read to be substantial.
Very substantial. He dared.

~~~
dfc

      > Not unusually, I popped off before reading the post.
    

Does "popped off" mean that you did not read the linked article and merely
used the title as a cue for a freeform writing exercise? And this is not an
unusual thing for you to do while browsing HN?

~~~
Bulkington
"Shit... charging a man with murder in this place was like handing out
speeding tickets in the Indy 500. I took the mission. What the hell else was I
gonna do?"

[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078788/quotes](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078788/quotes)

------
Zigurd
> _" This environment gave artists few choices: sentimentality, nihilism, or
> irony."_

I suppose one could call it art to construct a giant synthetic angst generator
and bathe in its effluent.

------
dvanduzer
If you remember the late 90s well enough, this reached a head with Jedediah
Purdy's For Common Things.

We have come so far full circle in 20 years, that Aaron Sorkin quoted Purdy
without a hint of irony on his latest HBO show.

This was my favorite response then, and maybe Stein'll do a reprise:
[http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,992159,...](http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,992159,00.html)

~~~
DonGateley
You beat me to the punch. Purdy's book has been far too obscure for far too
long. He was the first to awaken me to this cultural deviance and I've been
stuck with seeing it everywhere ever since. While it may be too simplistic I
blame, J.D. Salinger, Catcher in the Rye and Holden Caulfield almost entirely
for this plague of irony. I sincerely wish the creepy Salinger had been lost
in the war. As a culture we would be the better for it.

When I read For Common Things I thought perhaps it could be the bell weather
of change. Instead it was mostly ignored. He was remarkably young and
remarkably brilliant when he wrote it and it gave me hope for the for the
influence of his generation. Alas...

This article made me realize what it is that I find so absolutely compelling
in DFW's works. I find his suicide not the least surprising in light of his
remarkable sense of sincerity. How could one with such sensitivities continue
in this brave new world of snark.

~~~
dvanduzer
""" I asked Purdy if the book wasn't just an excuse for not having a sense of
humor. He said, "That's a pretty nifty little piece of psychological
deductionism." I took that as a yes. Then, to make conversation, I asked him
his favorite movie. He paused and said, "I like movies, but I don't orient to
them with the same sophistication as a lot of folks." """

------
zoba
"Skeptics reject sincerity because they worry blind belief can lead to such
evils as the Ku Klux Klan and Nazism. They think strong conviction implies
vulnerability to emotional rhetoric and lack of critical awareness. "

The article brings this point up, but I don't think it does a good job of
dismissing it. I agree that irony can be harmful to culture, however, I think
irony still has a job to do in our culture. There's a lot of people believing
a lot of things which they don't have evidence for (religion being the biggest
one that comes to mind), and I think having an approach of doubt to things can
be a good way to be sure society/it's individuals believe the most accurate
things.

~~~
philosophus
How is believing in religion different than believing in irony and pluralism?

~~~
dfc
How does one "believe in irony"?

~~~
gegtik
When one is sufficiently religious, faith/belief become the paradigm for all
mental processes. It becomes impossible to fathom a non-religious capacity of
thought.

~~~
dfc
But philosophus' point seemed to be that it was possible for a secular person
to "believe in irony." Personally I think it sounds a lot like "I believe in
dinosaurs."

------
austrapolith
"But David Foster Wallace predicted a hopeful turn. He could see a new wave of
artistic rebels who 'might well emerge as some weird bunch of anti-rebels… who
dare somehow to back away from ironic watching, who have the childish gall
actually to endorse and instantiate single-entendre principles… Who eschew
self-consciousness and hip fatigue.' "

Call me naive but I've thought about this before -- that this oversaturation
of irony and the mainstreaming of 20th century-style rebellion could very soon
have a backlash in the form of the rise of some kind of fascistic movement
among young people.

------
carsongross
Until art can take religion seriously again, it's a pointless discussion.
Great artists are authentic and, sans religion, the authentic position is
nihilism: everything else begs The Question.

The authors clearly understand this, at some level, by pointing out the
singular value of black spiritual music in american history. But, like most of
today's elite, they are unable to look the obvious answer in the face, because
it's so horrifying.

~~~
shmageggy
I find attitudes like this bewildering. I can't imagine being so uncreative as
to assert that the only authentic non-religious attitude is a nihlistic one.
How hard is it to take the human condition and it's joys and sorrows seriously
and at face-value, exalting what we are and might become without resorting to
silly supernatural fairy tales. We don't need religion for great art, we need
to cultivate our expressions of humanism.

~~~
toupeira
Like it or not, religion (or more correctly, spirituality) is a big part of
being human, especially when expressed as art. I think ever since the Age of
Enlightenment we've made a big mistake in dismissing anything that can't be
rationally explained by science as "silly supernatural fairy tales". We're
relying too much on our senses and logical thinking, and neglecting feeling
and intuition.

~~~
philwelch
Logical thinking, in the form of theology, is how you get Western religion in
the first place.

~~~
toupeira
How so? Religion doesn't seem very logical to me at all.

------
joefkelley
For a great counter-argument, see: [http://gawker.com/on-
smarm-1476594977](http://gawker.com/on-smarm-1476594977)

------
vixin
I may be wrong but somehow I don't think creators/artists read social comment
like this and say to themselves "Gosh, he's absolutely right, from now on I'll
give irony a miss and head off in a new direction". If they do then I would
guess they're pretty derivative and unlikely to produce work deemed to be
outstandingly original.

------
thrownaway2424
Is the font absolutely gigantic for any one else? I get 3 lines per screen on
mobile chrome.

~~~
tsm
Yes. If I pinched out it would turn into a normal size, wait a second, and
then return to being terrible. I couldn't get through more than a paragraph
because of this.

------
jccalhoun
These kids these days! Why back in my day...!

