
Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple - mbgaxyz
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/01/27/source-carbon-monoxide-poisoning-killed-berkeley-couple/
======
allenrabinovich
Hi folks. Val and Roger were dear friends, and I am on the ground here, and
I'd like to respectfully ask that you refrain from speculation. The press is
rushing to print sensational items, and they don't know the actual facts.

I've been talking to the police directly, and nothing is conclusive yet.
Nothing has actually been ruled out, nor determined to be the cause. They
don't even have full toxicology reports yet, those take days and sometimes
weeks.

On a personal note, I can tell you that there were two devices in the house, a
small 3D printer, and a small laser cutter, that were used for building models
and rigs for scientific research. Val was an immaculate engineer, and
conformed to all safety rules in operating these machines. To the best of our
knowledge, neither of the machines were operating the night they passed away.

Again, please refrain from fear-mongering and speculation. I know it's natural
for engineers to attack unsolved problems, but you are not working with
correct or full data. Once more data is available, we will write up a complete
and truthful statement to try and provide closure on this issue.

~~~
patcheudor
Condolences for sure. Do you happen to know the size of their place by chance?
CO becomes deadly at about 400 PPM or 0.04%. Doing the calculations I can't
for the life of me figure out how a small laser cutter could produce enough CO
under any condition to become deadly. Even with the smallest of places, lets
say 24x20x7 studio, that's 3,360 cubic feet of air & at 0.0807 pounds per
cubic feet of air, that means roughly 271 pounds of air. To become toxic, that
would mean the laser cutter would need to output 0.1084 pounds of CO or
roughly 1.7 ounces of CO in that area and then not get dissipated through air
leaks, opening and closing the exterior door, etc. That seems exceedingly high
given a laser is going to cut very little actual material and even getting to
the point where it has cut 1.7 ounces of material, let alone produced 1.7
ounces of CO would seem to me to take weeks, months, or years.

~~~
saycheese
Based on public records, appears the building is a fourplex and the total
floor space for the building is 3328 square feet; as such, my guess is the
their unit was 832 SQFT. Room height based on exterior photos roughly appears
to be 8-10 ft.

------
stcredzero
CO poisoning is cumulative. It takes a long time for CO to get unstuck from
hemoglobin. (About 2 weeks, IIRC.) It could have snuck up on them slowly, then
one evening with the cats "napping" they felt particularly tired and thought
to themselves, "We must be in hibernation mode from the chilly weather," then
they went to sleep then never woke up.

CO is odorless. You might get a headache, or you might only feel tired. What's
worse: a lot of cheap CO detectors are pretty shoddy.

~~~
verelo
I recently started getting very interested in air quality in my house. I
decided to take a similar approach to air quality that I do with the stock
market: lots of small, well distribute bets whenever possible.

For context, our house is 3 levels with a furnace in the basement (cold
climate; Canada) I ended up with 3 different brand of CO detectors, 2
different brands of smoke detectors and 1 radon detector.

By far the Radon detector is the most expensive at around $250 CAD, and least
critical for the short term (but for the long term concerns, anyone with a
below grade section of their home should have one!).

A decent Co + smoke detector (You can often get them in one unit) should cost
you no more than $30-40 CAD. Testing a CO detector isn't super easy (not like
smoke detectors - just make some well done toast), but I'm trusting that if i
have several different kinds well distributed throughout the house at least
one of them should save us.

I focused on keeping detectors both near and & inside bedrooms, as well as
having a minimum of 1 smoke + CO detector on the other floors in open spaces.

Unrelated to these gasses, I also purchased VOC sensors. These are SUPER
interesting. It's amazing how the VOC level rises after a few days, and all it
takes is opening a window for a few hours to bring it back to lower levels. We
were renovating recently and found that after virtually every contractor the
house needed hours of windows open to bring the VOC level back down to
something that the sensor considered "good quality" (lower than 450 ppm).

Hope that random rant was interesting to someone :)

~~~
fma
Which VOC detector do you have?

After I purchased my new house (USA, Georgia) I put in the detectors. My wife
is from China where people are rightfully paranoid about formaldehyde - due to
low quality building material. It's basically the same in the USA, except
people are a lot less knowledgeable and informed about it. My cabinets,
drywall, paint all had high level of formaldehyde. Had to always had the
windows open...otherwise it would rise above OSHA approved levels.

In the USA, there's no regulated levels for residence..but there is for
office. Funny, isn't it.

~~~
verelo
Eve Elgato: [https://www.elgato.com/en/eve/eve-
room](https://www.elgato.com/en/eve/eve-room)

Sadly they do not break it down by substance type (which the website almost
suggests it does), but i find it very interesting to monitor and that the
measurements are highly correlated with painting or opening a window.

~~~
fma
Dang! Eve looks good, especially for the price.

I have Foobot ([https://foobot.io/](https://foobot.io/)) and looks like it
cost twiec as much as eve but probably does the same thing. Though, it doesn't
say if eve uses wifi..I just see it say bluetooth. I like how Eve is battery
powered, you can bring it wherver you want - whereas Foobot is plugged in.

I have UNI-T UT-338C for on the fly readings. I like how the UNI-T can be
portable, or plugged in and has a display. I get similar readings between the
UNI-T and Footbot so I can somewhat trust it...

~~~
verelo
It's really rather decent, but I grow to hate the HomeKit protocol more every
day (slow, buggy and not something I can mess around with) probably a wise
move not going with something apple powered.

------
Animats
"3D laser printer" probably means a Glowforge. Nobody else calls them that.
Their documentation says "Lasers normally require some ventilation via a small
tube out a nearby window. Our optional Air Filter that sits under Glowforge
and ventilates using HEPA filters and charcoal, meaning no outside ventilation
is required." That won't do much if you cut something that emits carbon
monoxide when heated. That includes some common plastics, styrene being one.

There are lots of things you don't want to cut on a laser cutter unless you're
cutting under an inert gas, or at least nitrogen. Polycarbonate, any of the
chlorinated plastics (PVC, some synthetic leather), styrenes, and
polyethylene, for example. ABS melts, and Fiberglas's glass component won't
cut. Acrylics cut very well. Delrin cuts OK. Wood and cloth are OK. Techshop
is careful to teach people about this.

TechShop's laser cutters have compressed air coming in, a big exhaust hose
going out, and a fire extinguisher nearby. TechShop has an ad slogan, "Don't
try this at home. Do it at TechShop". There's something to be said for that
when you're using industrial-strength tools.

In addition to the two people, their two cats died. Operating these things in
a closed room is a really bad idea.

~~~
dmix
The air filter costs an additional $750 extra when you buy the $3000
Glowforge, I could see students skimping on that and no realizing the
implications. [https://glowforge.com/order](https://glowforge.com/order)

That said I watched the video for this product and I'm really looking forward
to when these are widespread. It's a very exciting industry. I'd definitely
buy one of these when it gets to around $1k.

~~~
tomaskafka
The order page definitely doesn't have any warning about the basic - even I
would go 'Nah, what's the $720 for? Upsell?'

How about:

Glowforge Pro + Air Filter: $5,995.00

Glowforge Basic + Air Filter: $3,745.00

Glowforge Basic: $2,995.00 Warning: You may die when using Glowforge inside
without Air filter (link). You may also die when cuting these materials (link)
inside even with air filter.

~~~
homero
And all come with 2 co detectors, internal and external

------
TheRoccoB
This is so tragic. I used to work with Roger and he's about as gifted of an
engineer as I've ever met. He was so nice and helpful too, even though he was
miles beyond me in terms of skill.

He was so into his indy game, Shard, and even whipped out his laptop to show
me and started explaining intricacies of the renderer when I met him at an
industry event years later.

I didn't know his wife, but from the things I've read she was also a pioneer
in her industry. Rest in Peace.

------
npunt
I've always been wary of 3d printers and laser cutters because of indoor air
pollution & VOCs. Though I didn't realize the amount they put out and the
cumulative effects of CO as mentioned in the comments here.

My sense is that _laser cutters should be required to come with CO detectors_
, and more generally we should be looking to add the appropriate chemical
detectors to 3d printers and laser printers to warn of other chemical output
issues. These home machines are often advertised for use in confined spaces
(size is one way manufacturers compete), which is why I think it should be
regulated - its not like someone took a commercial machine home with them.
Laser cutters are a fairly large capital expense and bolting on a CO detector
is _very_ inexpensive (probably <1%), and it could integrate with the cutter's
electronics to prevent usage if it exceeds a certain level.

Safety regulations are usually written in blood. Having two deaths with such a
small # of these machines out there suggests there are probably others who
have cumulative CO effects already. Very sad, my heart goes out to the friends
and family of Roger & Valerie.

------
abalone
Tragic. Recently California started requiring carbon monoxide detectors in
most homes.[1] Make sure you have one.

That's a surprising cause though. How much CO can a laser printer/cutter
produce, worst case?

[1]
[http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/Planning_and_Development/Housin...](http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/Planning_and_Development/Housing_Code_Enforcement/Carbon_Monoxide_Devices.aspx)

~~~
JshWright
New York has a similar law:
[http://www.amandaslaw.org/](http://www.amandaslaw.org/)

As both a maker and a firefighter, I would be _very_ surprised if CO from a
laser cutter was actually the cause here. Laser cutters can absolutely emit
harmful fumes, but CO needs to be in the hundreds of ppm range to be fatal,
and that's a _lot_ of CO.

For context, we had a call a while back where a guy was running a gas powered
(two-stroke) rotary saw [1] for a couple hours in a poorly ventilated
basement. CO levels were in the 300-400 range (and he was certainly feeling
poorly).

[1] Something like this:
[https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0804841](https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0804841)

~~~
Gibbon1
My dad mentioned that he almost died from a wall heater in college. He was
'sick with the flu' and getting worse. One night laying in bed the wall heater
fired up. He saw the light from the flame flickering on the floor and he
thought 'that's odd it's orange not blue'

The exhaust was blocked with soot.

I also had a friend and his GF that died from an improperly installed furnace.

I also wonder about cyanide from cutting plastic as well as carbon monoxide.
No idea, but they both seem about as toxic.

------
saycheese
Roger and Val’s friends are trying to raise money to offset the family’s costs
for traveling to the funeral and making funeral arrangements. Contributions
can be made online:

[https://www.gofundme.com/help-roger-hanna-morashs-
family](https://www.gofundme.com/help-roger-hanna-morashs-family)

------
mbgaxyz
Related:

"According to a study completed by a team at the Illinois Institute of
Technology, typical desktop 3D printers emit particles and compounds during
printing that federal agencies say could cause cancer or other ailments."

[http://www.chicagotribune.com/bluesky/originals/ct-3d-printe...](http://www.chicagotribune.com/bluesky/originals/ct-3d-printer-
emissions-health-risks-bsi-20160203-story.html)

~~~
digi_owl
At this point living seems to cause cancer...

~~~
BoysenberryPi
I mean....it does

------
pmoriarty
Makers are often exposed to many toxic compounds, from toxins in salvaged
electronics to PCB etching compounds to lead solder and solder fumes.
Unfortunately, they rarely have much if any safety training or awareness of
the dangers they are exposing themselves to.

~~~
Steezy
As a new hobbyist in the Maker community, are there any resources you'd
recommend that covers basic safety that is aimed at Makers?

edit: typo

~~~
pmoriarty
I'd start with digging up the material safety data sheets (MSDS)[1] for all
the compounds you're working with, and reading over those.

I'd also search around for books and papers on electronics safety. It's really
amazing just how little electricity is required to stop a human heart, if the
conditions are right.

The same goes for chemical safety. College level textbooks on these subjects
tend to at least give a decent overview of the issues involved, to a more
thorough degree than books targeted at a popular audience. But I wouldn't stop
there, and would try to find some more specialist literature dealing with
safety in particular.

I'd also encourage you to take courses in these subjects, and talk to the
professors about your interest in safety. Unfortunately safety is not a very
sexy topic, and tends to get glossed over a lot. But you'll still be far
better off with guidance from an experienced instructor than trying to go it
all on your own.

[1] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_data_sheet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_data_sheet)

~~~
danieltillett
The trouble with MSDS is that the lawyers have got to them and they all end
saying the same thing (look at the one for salt [1]) and so people become
blasé about the really dangerous risks.

When I was an academic I had huge problems with students working with the
truely dangerous chemicals in an unsafe manner because they couldn't tell the
difference. I had to run little informal classes with my students where I
would teach them which chemicals they had to worry about and which were not
that dangerous.

1\.
[https://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927593](https://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927593)

~~~
kuschku
> Do not ingest.

> In case of Skin Contact: Wash with soap and water. Cover the irritated skin
> with an emollient. Get medical attention if irritation develops. Cold water
> may be used

Okay, you’re right, these are overly alarming.

~~~
danieltillett
You should see the MSDS for dihydrogen oxide [1].

1\.
[https://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927321](https://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927321)

------
tbenst
Unclear what a "laser 3D printer" means--possibly selective laser sintering,
but that doesn't produce carbon monoxide to my knowledge. Possibly a homegrown
machine. Tragic reminder of the importance of proper workspaces.

~~~
oasisbob
Glowforge marketed their laser cutter as a 3D laser printer, didn't they?

As someone waiting for their Glowforge to ship, I really hope their device
wasn't involved in all this.

~~~
chris_st
From Glowforge's website, for their base model:

> It needs ventilation via the provided 4″ diameter (10.2cm) hose. We
> recommend putting the hose out a window.

~~~
anigbrowl
I'm guessing this is undergoing a hurried rewrite, to add something along the
lines of 'or you may die.' they're gonna get sued out the yin-yang for this
even if the dead couple totally ignored the instructions, on the grounds that
the instructions didn't state the danger clearly enough.

Having said that, while good safety information is important, two MIT-trained
engineers should really have known better.

~~~
sulam
Why should they have known better? He was a software engineer and she may have
had exposure to lab technique but a Glowforge doesn't scream "needs an
industrial hood" or anything. Yes, they clearly _could_ have known better, but
'should' seems to be making too-strong assumptions about their class work, MIT
or other. They could have had economics degrees for all we know (less likely
given their careers, but you get my point).

~~~
dragonwriter
Yeah, while I get that the general public misses this, I'm surprised to see
people who apparently think that "engineer" means a Star Trek-style
omnicompetent generalist.

~~~
anigbrowl
I dunno man, if something says you need to ventilate it by putting an exhaust
hose outside, I figure there must be a good reason for that. I have a lot of
hazardous chemicals in my house because I paint and a lot of artist paints
have toxic ingredients. I read the safety warnings carefully even though I
know little of chemistry.

~~~
sulam
It says you don't need to vent if you use the filter.

------
meesterdude
PSA: Make sure you have carbon monoxide detectors in your home, and that you
replace them every 5-7 years, as the detector goes bad over time. If you are
in a home with a high chance of carbon monoxide buildup, get one with a
digital display to help first responders understand your exposure level. if
you have children, get one that talks.

------
rdl
This is horrible.

Anyone with combustion sources of any kinds (gas heat, cooking, cars in a
garage, many kinds of tools) should have a CO sensor properly placed. I'm
staying at someone's house for a month, don't see one, so I just ordered a
couple.

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
I installed two carbon monoxide detectors at my mother's house over the
holidays and really we all should, it's not a big cost. This is very sad for
their friends and family but most of all for the poor couple. I think it's
selfish but rather human to say that when something like this happens to
'people like us', in this case referring to background, interests, and hobbies
it can feel extra shocking and upsetting.

------
rasengan0
We've had so many fire false alarms but finally a real one happened. It was
raining hard and maintenance closed the top vent to deter water intake. The
unit is a 4 story multi-unit dwelling and luckily someone had a cheap $49
dollar CO detector. The fire came sans alarm and everyone had to evacuate. We
were thinking ah man not this again. Someone had some burnt cooking that day.
We could only return to our homes until all clear CO detection from the
inspectors. My family opted in for the pulse oximetry that the nice fire folk
were providing. Needless to say many, including myself, bought CO detectors
that week.

------
jayajay
Everyone should read this, and forward to their loved ones. This is very close
to home (not literally) because it could happen to anyone, and is something
that many people do not consider. Have up-to-date CO detectors, do not operate
large appliances without considering their byproducts. Literally, the
environment matters more than anything, and this acts as a grave reminder of
this. Take care of the environment, especially the tiny one in your home, as
it could save your life.

------
a_g
towngas or coalgas that is piped in for cooking is hydrogen and carbon
monoxide, has all the other possible sources of carbon monoxide been ruled out
before nailing it on the laser cutter or 3d printer?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_gas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_gas)

i'd prefer it that the 'authorities' do a thorough and scientific
investigation and release the results in public on the internet, this needs to
be _proven beyond all doubts_ that it is caused by the laser cutter or 3d
printer

if this is not done, it would stir worldwide unnecessary panic about laser
cutters and/or 3d printers by saying that laser cutters and/or 3d printers
produces carbon monoxide and is dangerous and hence cannot be used

i'm not sure about laser cutters but normally 3d printers is more a fire
hazard than do anything else, i.e. 3d printers main hazard is fire, but carbon
monoxide is likely 'fake and invalid/assumptions/speculations'

------
Naritai
That's tough. Operating any sort of industrial equipment gets dangerous very
fast; I know a plaintiff attorney who handles cases like this (injury due to
improper exhaust), and the fact that it's actually an area of practice tells
you something.

------
arkhorn
Hi, i've a co2 laser cutting (40w) idle all the time (i do not use it anymore)
since around one year in the room close to my bedroom. even when idle its
dangerous ? i really don't know what to do, what do you suggest me guys.
thanks in advance

------
iscrewyou
I lit a candle last night with a closed window and door. Then it hit me that
there is no way there is no CO in this room. Immediately opened my window.
After hearing this story, I am never sleeping with my window closed.

~~~
pmiller2
With one candle, you're in far more danger from it tipping over than from CO.

~~~
iscrewyou
Yeah, I don't leave the room without the flame completely out.

------
pfarnsworth
Very, very sad. Who knew that it created CO, but I have paranoia about stuff
like that so I would only have it in the garage. Maybe that wouldn't be enough
depending on how much CO it produced.

~~~
afuchs
The hazards created by this type of equipment are well understood [1]. The
problem is that many people do not know about, and are ignorant of those
hazards.

[1]
[https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_iii/otm_iii_6.html#2](https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_iii/otm_iii_6.html#2)

------
xjay
Might as well raise awareness of Radon, and laser printers.

It's a tragedy, and reminded me of Marie Curie (who eventually discovered her
research was causing damaging levels of radiation exposure).

------
zapu
Damn, I need to invest in some CO sensor. Very sad to read.

------
tropo
Having tried one, I wouldn't trust a detector. That was money not well spent.
I could generate lots of CO, and nothing would register. Maybe flawed units
are super-rare, but I'm more than tempted to assume the industry is a fraud.

Why even bother? The device has one job, and it fails. All you get is a false
sense of safety.

~~~
nemo1618
What most people miss about CO detectors is that they don't go off until CO
levels have been elevated for a while. At low concentrations it can take
multiple hours to trigger the alarm; at higher concentrations it can take 30
minutes. Even at dangerous concentrations it can still take 5 minutes to sound
the alarm. So you can hold your detector in front of an exhaust pipe for a
minute and it won't go off, but stick it inside an upturned pot with a candle
inside and it will definitely go off eventually.

The reason for this is to prevent common false alarms like CO emitted due to
cooking or smoking.

------
toomim
Roger was an inspiration to me. Now he's dead.

------
iaw
This is as tragic as it gets, I suspect liability will fall onto whoever made
their "laser 3D printer" if the ventilation warnings weren't good enough.

------
tim4dev
do you have any news?

------
allenrabinovich
Hi folks. Val and Roger were dear friends, and I am on the ground here, and
I'd like to respectfully ask that you refrain from speculation. The press is
rushing to print sensational items, and they don't know the actual facts.

I've been talking to the police directly, and nothing is conclusive yet. They
don't even have full toxicology reports.

On a personal note, I can tell you that there were two devices in the house, a
small 3D printer, and a small laser cutter, that were used for building models
and rigs for scientific research. Val was an immaculate engineer, and
conformed to all safety rules in operating these machines. To the best of our
knowledge, neither of the machines were operating the night they passed away.

Again, please refrain from fear-mongering and speculation. I know it's natural
for engineers to attack unsolved problems, but you are not working with
correct or full data. Once more data is available, we will write up a complete
and truthful statement to try and provide closure on this issue.

------
jamiesonbecker
Article and headline are incorrect: "Carbon monoxide poisoning has also been
ruled out."[1][2][3]

Both MIT grads; one a founder of gaming company Glug Glug[2] and co-author of
game Shard[4]

1\. [http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/01/25/berkeley-
toxicology-t...](http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/01/25/berkeley-toxicology-
tests-ordered-in-couples-death/)

2\. [http://kotaku.com/game-developers-mourn-sudden-passing-of-
ex...](http://kotaku.com/game-developers-mourn-sudden-passing-of-ex-harmonix-
dev-1791590027)

3\. [http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Two-people-found-dead-
Be...](http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Two-people-found-dead-Berkeley-
apartment-10878385.php)

4\. [http://shard-game.com/](http://shard-game.com/)

~~~
cowkingdeluxe
The articles you linked are older (24th & 25th) than the article from the
headline ( January 27, 2017 2:15 PM ).

Further investigation and toxicology reports revealed carbon monoxide (fixed)
poisoning. It appears the initial statements ruling out carbon monoxide
poisoning were in error.

~~~
TacticalMalice
CO or CO2? Both are possible, CO2 poisoning is quite horrible though, whereas
CO poisoning may go unnoticed.

~~~
bonniemuffin
Yeah really -- I can't imagine you could die of CO2 poisoning without noticing
in time to GTFO. I've sucked a lungful of CO2 and it was awful.

~~~
Kubuxu
There is a difference between high and low concentrations of CO2 and
reactions. In high concentrations you get similar effect to lack of oxygen (as
it completely replaces oxygen in the air), in low concentrations it prevents
the HbCO2 from unbinding (only 7% of CO2 in air is enough to do that IIRC) and
causes silent death. There are stories of miners sitting down for a lunch and
never standing up again because of that.

------
robinhouston
Off topic, but I’ve never seen the care-of symbol (℅) used in place of percent
(%) before. I’m really curious how that could happen. On my keyboard I can
type % as shift-5, but there’s no way to type ℅ without selecting it from a
list of characters.

~~~
sctb
We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13507997](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13507997)
and marked it off-topic.

------
douche
How in the hell can a 3d printer produce enough CO to kill people? A shitty
woodstove I could believe, or the classic run the car in the garage technique

