
Joe Stump: Your city sucks (And so does mine) - conesus
http://stu.mp/2010/11/your-city-sucks-and-so-does-mine.html
======
rdouble
Whenever someone talks about how dirty SF is, you know they confined
themselves to SOMA, TL, the Mission and maybe North Beach. The rest of the
city is about as clean as any big city in the US. There's nothing particularly
dirty about the Sunset, Richmond, Pac Heights, Cole Valley, Parnassus, Diamond
Heights, West Portal, Forrest Hill, Russian Hill, Glen Park, or the other
neighborhoods that make up most of San Francisco.

In contrast, I now live in NYC and while there are no distinct "human poo"
neighborhoods as there are in SF, the entire city is covered with a layer of
grime and garbage from Manhattan all the way out to the furthest stops in
Brooklyn and Queens. This was simply not the case where I lived in SF, on top
of 17th street.

The same applies to the weather. Anyone who thinks SF has great weather has
never spent much time west of Twin Peaks. It is foggy and cold most of the
time.

~~~
jeffreymcmanus
People who think that San Francisco weather is terrible are typically from
places like Los Angeles (where I'm from) or other places that equate
excruciating heat with nice weather. I actually like the cold and rain, and it
only lasts for a few months. Put on a dang sweater and man up.

It's worth noting here that it was 80 degrees in San Francisco today. In
November.

~~~
rdouble
I'm from Minnesota, and I didn't think the weather in SF was terrible, but I
definitely thought it was weird that in SF it would be 80 degrees one day in
November and 50 degrees and foggy all summer.

~~~
aneth
I've been in and out of north beach for 10 years. It's hardly ever 50 and
foggy. It's sunny for a large part of every day and rarely below 65 midday.

~~~
maxawaytoolong
It's 50 and foggy every day in the Sunset.

~~~
jeffreymcmanus
Not yesterday, it wasn't.

------
yellowbkpk
Meanwhile, here in Minneapolis (really could apply to any upper Midwest city
like Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, etc.):

Pros:

\- If you like seasons, you get them.

\- Excellent beer. Many bars. Great nitelife.

\- Clean. No poop on the streets, even in the worse parts of the city.

\- Great public transportation (except Milwaukee).

\- Cheap rent (2BR for $1500 along the river with a view of the skyline)

\- Many excellent CS departments in-state and in the states surrounding. (UW-
Madison, UIUC, UMN)

Cons:

\- Tech scene is slowly simmering. Madison's is growing like a weed, but
elsewhere it's quite slow.

\- Not as much outdoorsey stuff to do as in the Pacific Northwest, but there's
still enough to do (skiing, fishing, hiking, biking, etc. -- just not on
14kfoot mountains)

~~~
jbseek
+1 for Minneapolis i live here and love this city, lived in other cities with
better tech scenes, but imo this town has alot to offer.

yellowblkpk i'm assuming you live in the twin cities too, do we have good
meetups tailored to an HN like community here? i haven't found anything good
yet.

~~~
varikin
Check out MinneBar (<http://minnebar.org/>) and the other stuff organized on
that website. Plus there are a ton of user groups, Ruby (RUM), Groovy (GUM),
Python (PyMNtos) _, Wordpress, PHP, ObjC, Flash, .NET, JS, Startup ones, and
more, lots more. If you are so inclined, RUM & MinneBar/Demo are great places
to start networking. In fact, FanChatter, a 2009 YCombinator startup if from
Minneapolis and Luke Francl helps organize the MinneBar/Demo stuff.

We are here, come find us:)

_I organize PyMNtos

~~~
jbseek
varikin thanks alot i did not know about minnebar, checking it out.

~~~
varikin
You are welcome. There is plenty going on in the area, you just have to find
it.

------
maxawaytoolong
This list was very startup-bro oriented, as are most lists like this.
Startups, Computer Science departments, hiking, beer are the axes of
importance. What's interesting is what's left out: can I meet good friends?
get laid? find a wife? etc.

~~~
cullenking
Can't remember where the article is now, but apparently SF has the highest
ratio of single straight women to single straight men in the entire US.
However, it also ranks as one of the most difficult to date in, because no one
steps up to the plate.

And please, don't discount the beer. I'd cry if I lived in a city where I
couldn't get a good beer.

~~~
WildUtah
Just the opposite. SF (and Silicon Valley) has the highest ratio of single
straight men to single straight women in the country. It's a very, very
difficult place to date as a straight man.

And the abundance of male techy immigrants means that women who are attracted
to geeky men are the most in demand and most likely to be already taken.

If you're single (and male) and you'd like to be paired up, make it happen
before or after your time in SF.

~~~
cullenking
Interesting - I must have gotten it backwards in my head. Maybe it was New
York?

------
psadauskas
I agree and disagree with him on Boulder (where I live now). I've visited SF
and the valley many times, and moved to Boulder from the midwest 4 years ago.

A couple of his cons are way out of left field though:

The weather: Its never been 10 below in the 4 years I've been here, and only
been below zero or single digits at night. Only about one or two days in each
of the winter months is it cold, and there's as many winter days with highs in
the 60s as there are days below freezing. It's very rarely cold more than a
couple days in a row, unlike the midwest winters I'm used to where it won't
get above 40 for a month. It'll snow 20" here, and be completely melted 3 days
later. But I guess compared to SF and Seattle, he hasn't experienced enough
really cold weather to know that what Boulder has isn't cold.

Real estate prices/rent is about the same as downtown of any major city not in
California. Denver is about 30 minutes up the road, and condos are about the
same price. As for getting to Denver, its easy enough, there's an express bus.

~~~
enjo
I'll second this. I moved to Denver (which is certainly a "real" city) almost
4 years ago. We get a few snow storms a year, and otherwise it's pretty damn
nice. January and February can be tough... but that's just cause we're
spoiled. Hell it was 65 degrees today and is supposed to be up into the mid
70's this weekend. That's not normal, but it's not exactly abnormal either.

I actually agree with a lot that he has to say about Boulder, it's why I live
in Denver. It's really a great secret. I can live in a house that's 1000 ft2
(with a yard and everything) within 2 miles of Downtown (11 minute bus ride)
for sub-$300k. Try doing that in Seattle or SF:)

~~~
2arrs2ells
Denver rent is insanely cheap! I pay something like 30% of what I'd pay in SF
to live downtown, within walking distance of Coors Field + tons of great bars
and restaurants.

------
ciscoriordan
For another city to compare, I've spent the last two summers in
Cambridge/Boston:

Pros

\- Decent public transportation

\- Huge college talent pool to draw from

\- Startups in the area tend to come out of area colleges

\- Recruiting from those colleges is probably the primary draw for the big
tech company offices in the area

\- Slightly cheaper rent than SF, with much cheaper options accessible by
public transportation

\- Home prices are way cheaper than the SF Bay Area

\- Great nightlife, successful sports teams if you're into that

\- There's a 200 year old frigate in the harbor that used to do battle with
pirates and there are lots of cool old buildings all around

\- The area is becoming more startup friendly. There are resources like
TechStars and the Cambridge Innovation Center that weren't around a decade
ago.

Cons

\- Annoying Puritan laws that aren't enforced evenly

\- Cold, long winters

\- Hot summers, though this past summer wasn't especially hot

\- Not much of a startup culture compared to other cities. Other than the
students, people are pretty complacent in general in Boston/New England

\- Most people in the area are from there originally or went to school there,
more-so than other cities

\- Small bubble of startups working on tools for academics

\- Parking and driving are kind of a nightmare. Lanes disappear, Massachusetts
drivers are super-aggressive, lanes are really skinny, etc..

Neutral

\- Not as diverse as other cities, especially outside of the colleges

\- Startups in the area are more focused on making money right away

~~~
CharlesPal
Stay here long enough and you begin to enjoy the cold winters and hot
summers... At that point you'll become a super-aggressive driver, focused on
making money right away and someone who likes Puritan laws that aren't
enforced evenly.

~~~
ynniv
You never "become a super aggressive driver"... Everyone else starts driving
slower!

I was recently in Atlanta, and got the distinct impression that my diving was
no longer "normal".

------
davidw
Something that hits you as you get older is "how about having kids and a
family?", which he doesn't consider at all. Fair enough, but sooner or later
it does become important for many people.

I've only lived in SF and Portland, not Seattle or Boulder. I think it'd be
fine to have a family in Portland - like he said, the prices aren't so high,
and it's got some nice neighborhoods where kids would be ok. My guess is that
Boulder is small enough that that holds true as well. SF on the other hand
requires some _serious_ cash if you want to have a larger home, and I'm a bit
less sure about schools there.

Also, when I was in SF, it seemed very much a place for 20-somethings. "Normal
people" who don't pull in major cash tend to drift elsewhere if they want to
be able to afford a more or less normal house, which skews the demographics
further. In the end, I didn't like that very much... here in Padova, one rubs
shoulders with both wealthy, middle class and the less well off, young and
old, which feels about right to me. Same in Portland, depending on where you
go. SF was very much a bubble in many ways.

------
geuis
For folks that are outside of SF or didn't vote, we had a measure up for vote
to prevent sitting or lying on public sidewalks. This is principally targeting
the homeless problem.

Luckily, it passed!

Go to this link and go all the way to the bottom. Its item L.
[http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-
bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/11/03/...](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-
bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/11/03/MNNS1G69CV.DTL&type=politics)

 _Edit_ Additionally, it looks like Ron Conway was a big contributor to this.
[http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/San_Francisco_Sit-
Lie_...](http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/San_Francisco_Sit-
Lie_Ordinance,_Proposition_L_\(November_2010\))

~~~
follower
> This is principally targeting the homeless problem.

Did you miss the word "hiding"? It doesn't seem to be much of a way to "solve
it".

~~~
potatolicious
Seattle has the same problem. We tried to pass a measure to ban "aggressive"
panhandling (criteria include talking to people or anything but sitting
quietly by the side), which has done nothing to curb the homelessness problem
downtown.

The city government has also aggressively harassed the homeless in parts of
downtown where they congregate, displacing them further. They then had the
gall to proclaim proudly that homelessness had gone down, since their yearly
headcount (of the popular spots, of course) decreased.

All of this has served to cut the homeless off from the services that help
them, and displaced them further afield.

------
wyclif
SF streets are pretty disgusting. It's true that there's fecal matter
everywhere you find homeless people, which is nearly everywhere in SF. It is
not at all uncommon to find a big brownie right in the middle of the sidewalk.
The streets and sidewalks in my tiny, obscure East coast village, OTOH, are as
clean as they are in Singapore. I don't quite understand why SF doesn't do
something about this, as it's a health hazard. Why don't the yuppies,
hipsters, scenesters and other trendy rich people care? Do they not walk or
bike in SF?

~~~
justinchen
They don't want their taxes raised to pay for the clean up :)

~~~
iantimothy
To be fair, Singapore doesn't really have high taxes to deal with the
cleanups. Our main strategy is to import a lot of low cost labor to do these
sort of work.

~~~
jambo
And caning!

------
nikcub
Seattle reminds me of London. Sure the weather sucks and it is raining all the
time, but the people make up for it by being awesome to each other. People in
sunny cities tend to be dicks[1]

Some of my fav cities in the world are those I least expected to be awesome.

[1] not a scientific study but exhibit A: Los Angeles

~~~
potatolicious
Have you heard of the Seattle Freeze?

Basically it goes like this: the locals here (people who grew up/went to
school here) are incredibly resentful of "transplants" who came from
elsewhere, mostly to work in the tech industries here. We're blamed for
anything from turning Seattle from a sleepy laid-back town into a monstrosity
of big-city lights (it... isn't), to raising housing prices, to making
everything suck more, to driving out the local music scene, etc etc (some of
which have merit). In any case, Seattle's social scene is almost comically
obviously divided into locals vs. transplants. I've been here for over a year,
have made many friends, and only one of which is a local Seattleite.

Transplants are forced to keep to themselves, and I'll just add a slight note
that the vast majority of the transplant population is male (software,
surprise!)

People who _visit_ Seattle often mistake our distant politeness and geniality
as friendliness. It isn't. People will give you directions to the bus stop,
we'll tell you the best places to get coffee, and we probably won't yell at
you for cutting us off on the highway (much), but this is really just
politeness, not friendliness. Culturally speaking people form social circles
early on in life (high school or latest, college) and do not appear at all
interested in expanding them. This is in contrast to some other cities I've
lived in where everyone seems constantly eager to meet new people.

It's also one of the more racially homogenous places I've seen (granted, my
history is in Vancouver and Toronto, where at last count half the population
was immigrant). Good Japanese food? Few and far between, pricey to boot. Good
Chinese food? Does not exist. Good Indian food? Maybe one place waaaaay over
on the east side, and this is despite having MS and Amazon's Indian engineer
population feeding the demand. Good food is basically limited to "pretentious
fusion attempt" and "Northwest seafood". Ethnic foods? Fuggetaboutit. You have
greasy stuff only a notch or two above Panda Express, and that's about it. The
food scene in this city _sucks_.

Transportation? It's one of the few cities I've lived in (and I've lived in
some shitty towns in the middle of nowhere, Ontario) where living in one of
the central neighborhoods (Capitol Hill, for reference) makes me feel legless.
The bus system sucks, the light rail is pathetic for any use except getting to
the airport, and the "streetcar" can be beaten by a granny on a bicycle.
Couple this with the fact that Seattle has no centralized city planning (it's
a very loose collection of neighborhoods) and getting around without a car is
a gigantic pain. Hell, it took me 45 minutes this afternoon to travel 1.0
miles on the bus (one of the most frequent routes, in fact). Mass transit
effectively _does not exist_ , and even when the government occasionally has a
bright idea about effective, fast mass transit to finally connect all of the
neighborhoods, the class-warfare-happy upper-middles on the east side are
quick to attempt to torpedo anything. Our current initiative to make light
rail finally useful, and for the first time get an effective mass commute
option in the city is currently being fought tooth and nail by rich homeowners
and builders fearing the "undesirables" will be able to move about too easily
into their gated meccas.

Yeah, the summers are gorgeous, the beer scene is delicious, the availability
of the great outdoors is incredible... but overall I find this city to be
incredibly insular, completely antisocial, stuffed to the brim with pretention
(yuppie urban high-rise style _and_ pretentious suburban rich style all rolled
up into one, oh boy!). The only good thing about this damned place is the
employment.

So, if you want to make a fair bit of money, enjoy the weather, and hermit up
writing code all day (or having beers with other coders... or having coffee
with other coders... or going to dinner with other coders... or hitting the
club with other coders, full of coders dropping mad dollaz trying to get
laid...), come right on in. I'll even buy you a beer and start a pool on how
long it takes for you to run screaming out of this town. The current average
is 2 years.

Note: This is a very harsh post. But, if you are married (or seriously
involved), ready to settle down in a nice, peaceful suburb with good schools,
Seattle's not such a bad place. There is so much nature around for you and the
kiddos - I wouldn't mind growing up here at all. If you are however young,
possibly single, and looking to meet interesting folk from diverse backgrounds
and enjoy the urban lifestyle... consider carefully.

~~~
WhooHoo
I don't think you're being totally fair to Seattle (but maybe it's because I
came from SV).

Some ethnic food is well-enough represented. The Vietnamese food around 12th
and Jackson is as good as anywhere (came here from SV and it matches up fine),
there are significant Korean communities in the Lynwood and Federal Way burbs
where that food is good, Ethiopian food is pretty good in the Central
District, Indian food on the eastside isn't as bad as you imply, there are
some great taco buses, etc. And on Chinese food, the restauraunt I would most
miss if I moved away is Sichuanese Cuisine; it's dirty, spicy, greasy, and
fantastic. There's a big step down from there though.

The homgeneity is split usually on neighborhood and economic lines; the rich
neighborhoods are all WASPy but get down to the southside and it's generally
all minority. That's what happens when housing prices are so disparate.

The styles you talk about are present in seemingly every major city that
hasn't experienced complete suburban flight. It's the other ones that annoy
me; Capitol Hill is like a lookatthisfuckinghipster theme park and everywhere
else there's an obsession with appearing outdoorsy. For a fun time, count the
number of North Face logos you see in a crowd at any time of year.

I like this city for staying down to earth. It's not perfect, it clearly isn't
for everybody, but it ain't that bad. It's desperately alternative; so showing
up as another one of an already huge crowd you shouldn't expect diversity.

~~~
potatolicious
Maaaaybe on the Vietnamese food, disagreed about all of the other ethnic
foods. The problem with Seattle (as it is for many other cities) is that
minorities are not economically well-represented.

For example, there are _many_ well to do Chinese folk in this town working in
white-collar tech jobs, yet the sort of Chinese food you'd see in this city
wouldn't even be fit for a road-side stall in Shanghai. It's strictly greasy
spoon, over-Westernized stuff with zero authenticity - head up to Vancouver
sometime if you want to see "real" middle class (or upper-middle) Chinese food
(and it's about the same price as the greasy spoon swill here). This entire
category does not exist in Seattle. Hell, I've lived in cities of a mere
100,000 folk that have had better Chinese food.

My Indian colleagues complain of the same effect for them - a lot of
marginally competent stuff that isn't downright nasty, but neither is it high-
quality, nor authentic.

The same applies for every other ethnicity under the sun except the Japanese -
Japanese food in this city is fairly decent and well represented, though much,
much pricier than any other city I've lived in. It's the only cuisine that the
population around seems sophisticated enough to discern good from bad.

Capitol Hill honestly doesn't bother me so much (probably why I live there).
The hipsters may be desperately preening, but it beats the arrogant yuppies in
Belltown aping Lil' Jon all day and night and getting krunk with their brahs,
all the while spitting on the homeless drug-addled folk that fill the streets
down there. Ugh, never living there again.

[edit] Honestly speaking, the food scene's quality is a relatively minor
concern compared to just the sleepiness and insular antisocial-ness of the
town. It's no food mecca, but it's good enough to get by if you had some
interesting people to share it with - but as it is you'll be having greasy
Chinese food with a lot of other hackers, and basically no one else.

~~~
WhooHoo
I don't think it's the economic representation at all that causes mediocre
food; I could also give two shits about the economic class targeted by some
dish. The problem comes when they don't have significant heavily concentrated
ethnic neighborhoods to sell to; when 70% of your potential customer base is
people who have a problem ordering spice levels over 2/5 in one of the billion
mediocre Thai restaurants around, you have to tone everything down. They don't
have to worry as much about selling to these people in the CD or in the
Rainier Valley since frankly a lot of people are scared shitless driving down
E. Cherry St or past Franklin High on Rainier Ave S. I'm aware of the Richmond
scene; that's the benefit of a city that's 45% Chinese people. The general
Asian concentration isn't even remotely that high anywhere in the Puget Sound
(it's less than 20% in every city I checked).

Sushi (I assume you mean sushi, since most Japanese restaurants I've been to
here treat everything that isn't sushi as a distraction) is absurdly simple
food (it was created to be fast food), governed mostly by fish quality. And
guess what the fish is pretty good up here, big surprise.

I'm not convinced Belltown partiers actually live there. I'm about 80% sure it
and Pioneer Square fill up with the Seattle version of the Bridge & Tunnel
crowd; I guess they'd just be the bridge and bridge crowd but I've also heard
them referred to as BARKers once or twice (Burien Auburn Renton Kent). But
yeah it's a place to stay away from on party nights; the concentration of
drunk morons makes it crime central. They've got some nice (not-ethnic)
restaurants down there as its only saving grace.

I also disagree on the antisocialness of the town; if the only people you know
are hackers that's your problem. For people who come here as a hacker and
expect to be embraced for it, they should know that the locals have seen a
hundred thousand programmers pass through on the MS/Amazon/Expedia/etc gravy
train and it's kinda old hat. They don't think we're very interesting either;
a hacker has to do something else to stand out from the 40,000 other people
who are just like him/her.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"I'm not convinced Belltown partiers actually live there"_

They don't. The sadder part about Belltown is that without the annoying
fratbros it's completely lifeless. Walk down 1st or 2nd on a weeknight to see
what I mean. Compare this with, say, Granville/Robson in Vancouver, St.
Catherine in Montreal, or Yonge/Queen in Toronto and the patheticness is
magnified more.

It's part of why I moved up to Capitol Hill - despite the hipsters, at least
people are out and about throughout the week. There's _life_ on the streets,
as opposed to Belltown and downtown where shops close at 5-6pm, and there's
nary a soul to be found walking on the sidewalks (well, unless you count the
coked out hobos and their dealers).

There is _no_ energy in this city. It's as if everyone is constantly in an
opium-induced haze, lazing about in the coffee shops, or at home. When I lived
in Belltown I felt like a reverse Omega Man - in the daytime the streets would
be full of people coming and going, but at night they'd slink back indoors as
if the night is out to get them. This is part of the "antisocial" thing I
complained about in an earlier post - but what can you expect when you stuff a
neighborhood full of antisocial, overworked, overstressed hackers? Of course
they just shut down on weeknights after work. Foot traffic in even the hottest
neighborhoods is essentially zero except on Fridays and Saturday nights. The
entire city is utterly lifeless throughout the week, and explodes into a
flurry of sudden activity for a few hours (hilariously enough, mainly driven
by people traveling in from the burbs... since when are the suburbs known for
more activity than the city?), only to continue being lifeless as soon as
Saturday rolls past.

Heck, the restaurant scene is the same. Take the hottest restaurants in the
city in Vancouver, Toronto, or Montreal, and they'll be packed no matter which
day you go. Here? On a Tuesday or Wednesday night you can waltz into almost
any restaurant, no matter how well-regarded or hip (the ones you can't hope to
get into without a reservation on the weekend), and just plop your ass down
because it's practically empty. It's as if life _stops_ on weekdays. Goes
extra for Belltown - I am unsure what Belltown residents do all day, because
the only people seemingly taking advantage of their copious restaurants and
entertainment are people from elsewhere.

In fact, take a look at your local restaurants - and see how many specials
exist on Sundays. Sundays! In any (other) major city Sundays are still prime
for going out, and business is still booming as everyone gets their last bit
of fun in before returning to the grind. In Seattle the city's shut down even
worse than weekdays on Sundays.

> _"I also disagree on the antisocialness of the town; if the only people you
> know are hackers that's your problem."_

Are you sure you're not a local? ;) I've seen this argument a million times
over, but the result is the same: the vast majority of people I've met here
(and not all hackers, but most) have a huge amount of trouble meeting varied
people. If this sort of effect is isolated, I'd be more willing to blame the
victim - but it's so pronounced that it's made our city infamous to the rest
of the US, and there's not a single transplant I've met who doesn't
acknowledge the problem is real.

Hell, the only people I've seen deny it are the locals - which is
understandable, because they don't feel its effects daily.

Which isn't to say meeting people - non-hackers even - is impossible in this
town, there are some interesting hacks around Seattleites' antisocial
behavior. The problem is that it takes a _huge_ amount of effort - never in my
life has socialization required so much conscious and continued work. In other
cities it just _flows_ \- people are always up for meeting new folk, and going
someplace after work to maybe make a new friend or two is second nature.

This is exacerbated by the fact that Seattleites are notorious social flakes.
I host a party in Vancouver, or Toronto, and almost all of the RSVPs will
show. The ones that don't will probably text me at some point. Here in
Seattle, your show-rate is well below 50%, and not a word to be heard from the
flakes. I've seen this in multiple contexts: I'm involved in a volunteer group
that constantly struggles with getting people who sign up (and get reminder
emails the week before AND the day of) to show (<50% show rate). I've also
been involved in local modeling/photography groups where the show rate is well
below 25% for any of our events. My own get-togethers have a show rate of
maybe 60%. People here _don't_ take socialization seriously - possibly because
most people aren't terribly arsed to expand their circles. It's the infamous
Seattle noncommittal waffle.

Hell, we had a photographers' social a few weeks back. 15+ RSVPs and 4 showed.
This is depressingly typical for Seattle.

> _"a hacker has to do something else to stand out from the 40,000 other
> people who are just like him/her."_

Agreed. It's what you get with a monocultural town with insane domination of
one industry and no representation from any other. Seattle _is_ software, and
if living with an army of other nerdy hackers is your thing, it's great. If
however you desire your social circles to be filled with diverse people doing
different things, this city is a poor choice overall. Better off in a city
with significant representation from multiple industries.

Not only are they less interested in interacting with us because of the city's
already-insular culture, but we're also pretty old-hat, _and_ there's really
not that many people from other fields to begin with - there are no other
industries with a huge presence in Seattle (a case _may be_ made with
biotech).

------
JoelMcCracken
Pittsburgh is beautiful. It has a decent startup scene and lots of tech talent
(pitt, cmu). Rent is extremely cheap here, so you can't get more ramen
profetable than here. We also have our own startup incubator, alphalab.
Seriously. Pgh has all the qualities needed to become the next major startup
community.

~~~
look_lookatme
My friends that have gone to CMU all say the same.

What are the ideal neighborhoods for someone coming from SF or NYC? I'm
thinking with bars and restaurants and a general nightlife-ish, walkable vibe.

~~~
steveklabnik
The biggest ones:

* Oakland is where Pitt is at. It's got tons of college kids running around everywhere, with tons of bars and places to eat.

* Shadyside is where all of those kids go after they graduate. It's where I'm sitting right now. More families, but still a bunch of stuff to do. Can be expensive (oh wait, you're coming from NYC/SF, it's dirt cheap, nevermind) if you don't look around.

* CMU is located on the border between Shadyside, Oakland, and Squirrel Hill.

* Squirrel Hill is where most CMU students live. It's a very family oriented neighborhood, lots of quiet streets, but still has a quite bustling 'main street.'

* The South Side is a bit far from those three neighborhoods, but it's got a _crazy_ nightlife. The number of bars would be illegal if they weren't grandfathered in, no joke. This is where AlphaLab is, along with a bunch of other tech companies, and lots of families, punks, etc. Reminds me of the Mission a bit, though I was only there for a day or two, so that could be a slightly poor characterization.

What you have to remember about Pittsburgh is that each neighborhood is a
totally viable mini-city. They all have a 'main street' where most of the
commerce is, and then housing around it. So there's at least something to do
everywhere, though some places are obviously more bustling than others.

I've lived here all my life, so if you have any more specific questions, ask
away.

~~~
askedrelic
Sup shadyside. Preface: I've lived 6 months in SF, 6 months in NYC, and
visited many other places. I've been living in Pittsburgh fulltime for about 8
months now, 5 months outside the city, 3 months in Squirrel Hill/Bloomfield.

The distinct neighborhoods and main areas are very true. I think my largest
complaint about Pittsburgh has been learning where stuff is going and what's
going on. Knowledge about the city seems so hidden and not well organized
online. Yelp usage is lukewarm.

The other problem with all the distinct areas is how spread out they are,
having a car is critical IMO to get around. Public transit (only busses
basically) seem terrible.

In terms of food, there definitely is a good variety of cultures and has kept
me busy sampling things. Huge amount of German culture foodwise and beerwise,
having the Hoffbrau Haus around is excellent.

Girls seem pretty normal, plenty of em around, I found a girlfriend without
much trouble.

Overall, the city has grown on me through the pains I've taken to learn what
is fun to do.

~~~
steveklabnik
The biggest thing about city knowledge is knowing which fucking streets are
one way and in which direction.

> The other problem with all the distinct areas is how spread out they are,
> having a car is critical IMO to get around.

Busses are horrible, but bikes are still better than cars. I can actually beat
a car from Downtown to Shadyside around rush hour...

------
igrekel
The comments about Portland OR really remind me of my own experience with
spending time there. It really was the first time I was visiting a place and
think "I'd really like to live here!". What really sold me was the quality of
the food available for a city of that size. How walkable the place is. How
friendly the people I met in the street were. How going out in Portland was
fun. And the scenery around the city is just amazing. Plus it really seemed
like a good place to raise a family (The latest criteria I have) because it
was generally inexpensive and has all the community advantages of a smaller
town.

------
thecombjelly
My city doesn't suck (Houghton, Michigan). Granted it isn't startup world...
But we do have a good University that brings in the nerds.

And it's awesome because it isn't too big (only around 7,000), and it's been
listed as one of the 100 best small towns in America. It's for hackers like me
that don't like lots of people and like to be outdoors a lot (and don't mind
250 inches of snow a year!).

The city has many beautiful remnants of the copper boom and it is well kept
up. Homeless aren't a problem because you just can't survive the winter
without a home.

~~~
kd0amg
And no place I've seen matches Houghton on cost of living. The linked article
says $1700 for a 2-bedroom apartment. My friends and I rent a 5-bedroom house
for less than that.

~~~
vital101
Yes, but the cost heating that house makes is considerably less affordable.

~~~
kd0amg
Our monthly gas bill has never exceeded $140. Split across the 5 of us, that's
pretty affordable.

Edit: Perhaps I should also add that it stays below $40 for at least half the
year.

------
jscore
I have a love/hate relationship with SF after living here for many many years
since 2000.

I'm from NYC originally (and finally back) and here are my thoughts after
shuttling back and forth for many years.

PROS

1\. It's probably the safest, relatively big (~ 1M) city that I've ever been
to. And I've traveled _a lot_ throughout US and the world. If something bad
happens to you in SF, you've really, really should hone your street smarts.
And no, Tenderloin is not dangerous at all as I've lived a couple of blocks
from there for few years.

2\. Probably the only other city (NYC is the other) where you truly have a
diverse selection of food. That's pretty impressive for such a small city.

3\. It's probably one of the most beautiful cities I've ever been to. I love
the rolling hills and some great views especially of GG bridge and Bay Bridge.
I wanted to move to SF for a long time, and it took a while for me to sink in
that I was actually _living_ in SF.

CONS

1\. It's a city of wannabes. Basically everyone lives in the future (they
"wanna/hoping to" have a startup, or "do art" etc). Ambitious people are good,
but I feel SF definitely goes a bit far in this regard. For startups, it's due
to the availability of venture capital in the city, where you don't need to be
profitable from day one. In comparison, New York is about hustling and making
money FROM DAY 1, not tomorrow, not in few years.

2\. The bohemian/alternative/smug feel of the city. South Park had a funny
episode about this. For example, people drive Prius in order to "show off" how
green and environmentally friendly they are. Some of my good friends (non
hipsters or art people, etc) only eat organic and only shop at Trader's Joe or
Whole Foods. Apparently Safeway is not good enough. Organic is good, but try
going to a restaurant with someone who is stubbornly organic about food
content there, and will refuse to go. I mean come on, you're not gonna die if
you eat non-organic once in a while!!

3\. It's too laid back. If you love New York or East Coast in general, I think
you'll find the slowed pace of the city irritating. In some ways this is a
consequence of (1).

4\. Nobody grows up in the city. This is a big one. I've seen some girls who
are 35 and still wear clothing that a early 20s girl would wear. Same for
guys. You can be 40+ or 50 and still live with roommates, etc. I've always
felt that a cutoff for living with roommates is like 30 or maybe even early
30s, but 40+ is a bit too much.

5\. The weather plain sucks. You have windy/sunny-turning-to-foggy weather
(65-55F) pretty much all year except about 2-3 times a year when a heatwave
(75F+) lasting about 3-4 days comes in and you can finally walk around with a
t-shirt at night. There's really two seasons: dry and wet. I respect East
Coast's weather much more because I know that in June I will be rocking a
t-shirt all day and night and don't need to carry a jacket "just in case".
Mark Twain said the coldest winter he'd ever been to was a summer in SF. SF's
summer months are typically the coldest in the whole country.

6\. Don't get me started on dating. As a guy, I still stick to my theory that
it's probably one of the WORST cities to hook up I've ever been to. Most of
the places are just full of guys which makes sense since West Coast has
statistically more single guys than single girls. East Coast is a bit better
in this regard. I always told myself if ever I move back, and that's a big if,
I'll have to be married or have a serious girlfriend. And if you're a girl,
don't get too excited; I've been told from female friends of mine that the
guys are no prize either.

7\. Pretentious Hipsters. Need I say more?

~~~
Goladus
What do you mean "grows up?" If you're a 35 year-old single woman looking to
not be single any more then you'll probably wear some sexy clothing once in
awhile, especially when you're out in public.

Also, if you're 35 and single of either gender, there are plenty of reasons to
want to live with roommates rather than by yourself. It's much cheaper and
more efficient, plus you have friendship, company, sharing of responsibility,
and someone to call the ambulance if you ever have an emergency.

One of the worst reason of all to live by yourself is out of some vague idea
that you're supposed to because that's what adults do. If you are single,
living alone gets lonely really fast. At least, it sure as hell did when I
lived on my own in my 20s. And is NYC really any different in this regard?
Boston certainly isn't.

~~~
nmcfarl
One of the most surprising things I've learned in the last few years is that
american cultural norms of how one should live one's life really do have at
least some upsides, and "growing up" can be a lot of fun.

And these things are big - changing how you dress, and who you live with, and
where, will change your life. But looking at these things logically, and
predicting outcomes can be hard.

I don't make analytical choices about these questions any more, I've found my
gut better than my brain here. And if you want "grow up" not doing so because
you might be lonely, or have a hard time making ends meet seems like a poor
decision to me. On the other hand if your gut says live with roomies when
you're 50, I'd advocate that as well.

------
ced
Related discussion: _Ask HN: Best Startup City - Outside the USA?_

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375>

------
benatkin
I live in Boulder. These two things really hit me:

> I really yearned for hardcore technology while I was in Boulder. A lot of
> the technology scene was very much focused on creating consumer
> applications. I’m a big infrastructure, big data, big scale kind of guy and
> often felt out of place in that scene.

I concur, except for the part about feeling out of place. I'd rather feel out
of place more often so I can get more exposure to "big data, big scale".

> I didn’t like Boulder at all due to the cold climate and small size of the
> city.

I've heard this before, but hearing it from Joe Stump (the sentiment, not the
reasons given which I'm well aware of) feels different. Not sure how I'll feel
when it sinks in.

------
CharlesPal
No talk of Boston and just a mention of New York?

It does not make much sense to compair technology/startup cities and totally
leave out the East Coast.

~~~
techiferous
Cambridge, Mass is definitely a nerd mecca. There's a lot of technology and
startup action over here. And it's a _wonderful_ city to live in (very
walkable, nice architecture, low crime, clean, diverse).

~~~
CharlesPal
I totally agree... Especially impressive when you consider the size of
Cambridge (~7 sq mi) VS the size of an area like Silicon Valley (~450 sq mi).

That's a pretty amazing amount of nerd density.

------
bdb27
I'll throw in my $.02 about San Diego. I've lived here for about 6 years.

I'll try by topic since most of these can be good or bad depending on your
point of view.

Tech Community: I think the tech community here has potential and could become
more significant in the future. There is a regular Hacker News meetup,
Function Programming meetup, and SHDH. I'll let other speak about the startup
scene...

Universities: SDSU and UCSD are the two major Universities down here for tech.
UCSD has a lot of good programs in many engineering disciplines and produces a
lot of talent. SDSU also has a respectable program in CS.

Weather: There is a single season here and it is summer. Though it comes in
different shades, it is always summer to some degree. The nicest time of year
is typically Fall and Winter. Summer is cool with an onshore breeze but the
city is busy with tourists.

Jobs: There are a lot of jobs here in government, education, biotech, and
telecom. Goverment jobs can be either as a government employee or contractor.
Mostly DoD related. e.g. Navy, Army, Homeland Security, Coast Guard, etc. I
see so much bad software in DoD that it seems ripe for disruption. A talented
startup that has the right connections and can leverage lean technologies
could put some large high dollar organizations to shame I think. Problem is
all the bureaucracy it takes to develop software for the DoD.

Food and Beverage Scene: The food scene here is good I'd say. It's not SF
good, but there are lot of options at a reasonable price. Beer scene here is
also good. We have a lot of local breweries that have a presence at any
respectable bar or restaurant down here.

Activities: SD is one of the most active cities I have seen. With the nice
weather all the time there is no shortage of things to do outside. Just pick
your poison here. Bike, golf, motocross, run, skateparks, stick and ball
sports, surf, swim, etc.

Cost of Living: Cost of living here is relatively high. It's cheaper than SF
and NY though but probably more expensive than other places mentioned. There
is a good variety of housing in different neighborhoods at various price
points though.

Military town: There is a notable military presence here. Between the Navy at
Coronado and the Marines at Camp Pendleton your gonna cross path with marines
and sailors regularly.

------
sahillavingia
What are your guys' opinions about LA? Coming from Singapore it's a huge step
up, but I'm sure SF is far crazier.

~~~
billpaetzke
LA is okay. Probably is between 3rd-10th position of tech hubs. If you really
like the culture, weather, nightlife, or have ties to the city, then you'll do
fine staying. You could probably start a decent company. USC, UCLA, and
CalTech have fine CS depts. The entertainment and aerospace industries are
strong here. That's why MySpace (originally social for musicians) and SpaceX
(a new space-vehicle startup) work well here.

I have worked at two companies here (one big, one startup) for four years. Job
scene isn't as dense as SF/SV. See for yourself on careers.stackoverflow.com.
Do a 40-mile radius search on San Francisco. Then do one for LA. You'll notice
that SF has 84 jobs and LA only 9. (For completeness, NYC has 98 jobs, Boston
40, Seattle 20, Chicago 11, Boulder 10, Portland 9, Minneapolis 1, San Diego
1).

But I'm having an itch to go hit a home run in SF/SV. Maybe you do, too. If
you want to maximize your chance of success, then move to SF/Silicon Valley
when you graduate. And do summer internships (or work on your own projects and
network) there in the meantime.

~~~
philwelch
_USC and UCLA have fine CS depts._

What about Caltech?

~~~
billpaetzke
Added CalTech now. It's much smaller than USC or UCLA. And I know several
programmers from USC and UCLA but not CalTech. So that's why I didn't think of
it at first.

------
m0nastic
I'll throw in my comments about Washington D.C./Northern Virginia.

I've lived here about ten years (first five in Northern Virginia, the past
five in downtown DC)

Pros:

1.) The tech community here is actually quite good. It definitely feels like
it's gotten better since I've lived here. There's no shortage of smart folks
working on cool things, even if they are a little more spread out
geographically.

2.) While I wouldn't say it's "recession-proof", the area is certainly way
less effected by the economy. You can attribute that to the preponderance of
government and government-related industries here.

3.) Public transportation is mediocre. Some people think it's great, some
people think it's awful. I would say it's somewhere in between. If you live
downtown you can get around most places on the Metro. Northern Virginia is
accessible out a little ways to Arlington, then it gets sparse.

4.) There's a lot to see downtown if friends or family come to visit. The
museums are nice (and free), but I think after a couple months here you'll
have had your fill.

5.) You're fairly close to a lot of other places. NYC is a four hour train
ride (or a $20 bus ride), Philly is even closer. You have three airports in
the immediate area, so you can get to most other places directly.

Cons:

1.) It's really expensive. I moved here from Northern California and was
dumbfounded that rent was as expensive here (without the benefit of living
near the beach). Like most places, you can find things for cheap if you're
willing to commute (or if you live in DC, you can find things for cheap if
your willing to live in one of the not-good parts of the city, of which there
are many).

2.) Food isn't particularly good. Which isn't to say that there aren't good
restaurants, but there's a huge drop-off after you get down from uber-
expensive. Oh, and there isn't a single good pizza place in a 30-mile radius
of the city.

3.) There is a giant preponderance of government-related folks. This isn't a
con for everyone, but anywhere downtown is filled with lobbyists. On a related
note, it's also a little weird to live somewhere that is so caught up with
politics where your vote doesn't matter (we have no representation in
Congress). Local politics is a cesspool, made worse by the fact that DC is
cuckolded by Congress.

4.) Some may disagree, but I think the weather here is terrible. It's
oppressively hot and humid in the summer (actually four or five months) and
then cold and gross in the winter.

5.) If you live in DC, you are relegated to a few neighborhoods that aren't
awful. It's changing over time (even just in the time I've lived here), but as
to whether that's an improvement is open to debate. If you're talking Northern
Virginia, you're pretty much limited to Arlington if you want a semblance of
other people. As soon as you start to go west, it's all strip-malls and
suburbs.

I've been trying to leave for about nine of the ten years I've lived here, but
I know plenty of people who like it here. If you wind up in one of the up-and-
coming neighborhoods and meet some good folks, you can enjoy yourself here.
Just don't try and look for good pizza.

~~~
RyanGWU82
I used to live in Washington and I thought it was a great place for a semi-
foodie like myself. There are certainly some great "uber-expensive"
restaurants there, but there are a lot that don't break the bank. Matchbox,
Heritage India, Jaleo, Luigi's, Old Glory...

I loved the pizza at Armand's (Chicago-style) and 2 Amys (Neapolitan).

Northern Virginia dining could be hit-or-miss, but the Great American
Restaurants chain was my absolute favorite. The food and the service at all of
their restaurants is top-notch. Have you been to Coastal Flats/Sweetwater
Tavern/etc.?

~~~
m0nastic
I disagree on both your pizza choices, but I may just be a pizza snob ;)

Sweetwater is actually my favorite restaurant in the area. Everything there is
awesome, and it's priced very reasonably.

There's good eating in Northern Virginia, it's just very spread out.
Ironically, I had much better experiences with restaurants when I lived in
Northern Virginia than when I moved to DC (I just had to drive more).

------
dshep
I live in SF currently, and used to live in Portland. It's a lot easier to
find work in the bay area, but I think if you can find a good job in Portland
or make your own, it's the nicer place. If I had to put down roots somewhere
it'd be there.

------
m0th87
Nickpick: Seattle IMO actually has a pretty disappointing music scene,
especially with respect to indie music. Presumably all of the artists moved
out as the cost of living increased. But the awesome beer makes up for it.

~~~
2arrs2ells
Nitpick^2: I don't think the Seattle beer scene is actually that good
(granted, I live in Denver).

Red Hook, Mac & Jacks and Pyramid are all decent. Ranier Beer is some of the
most foul stuff I've ever tasted. Am I missing places? I think most of the
good beer in Seattle comes from Portland or elsewhere.

~~~
WhooHoo
Hale's Ales up in Ballard is pretty good, the Elysian breweries brew their
own, Scuttlebutt out of Everett is pretty good, the Georgetown brewery makes
some good stuff, Lazy Boy brewing also out of Everett ain't bad.

There are also small breweries that don't bottle (like Mac and Jacks) and you
have to get them on tap at the famous beer bars like Uber, Brouwers, or
Beveridge Place. There are plenty of places to look up more interesting beers
in Seattle, the beers you named are just the tip of the iceberg.

------
mcxx
Can someone please write the pros and cons for NY and LA?

------
iamclovin
Great point about SF being an echo-chamber. I live in Singapore and the
burgeoning startup scene here has started to feel like an echo-chamber too.

~~~
jfb
San Francisco is an echo chamber in many ways. There are days when it feels
less like a city where shit gets done and more like Disneyland for rich white
people. That said, it's a pretty great place to live.

------
wyclif
Having been to all these towns, I have to agree with him that Seattle has the
best beer scene in the US.

~~~
enjo
THIS is where I draw the line.

Best beer scene? Really?

That's insane. If Boulder does anything right, it's the fact that it's in the
center of the beer capital of North America. Avery, Great Divide, New Belgium,
O'Dell, Left Hand, and a ton of smaller breweries are within 30 minutes of
Boulder.

They hold the Great American Beer Festival (see #1
[http://allaboutbeer.com/live-beer/culture/2008/05/the-
growle...](http://allaboutbeer.com/live-beer/culture/2008/05/the-growler-
list-125-places-to-have-a-beer-before-you-die/)) in Denver for a reason.

It's bizarre that Joe didn't mention it. Colorado absolutely kicks ass at
beer:)

*EDIT: I should also mention that we just elected a fricking brewer as as our new governor. :)

~~~
wyclif
Colorado does have some great beers. I'm a big fan of Fat Tire and the other
New Belgium beers.

~~~
wwortiz
If you like fat tire you should try 90 shilling from from Odell Brewing
Company (if you can find it). I find fat tire really depends on what batch you
get and how lucky you are for how good it is but 90 shilling is consistently
good.

As are most of the other beers from Odell, I personally like their Cutthroat
Porter.

------
rdmlx
How does Austin, TX compare?

~~~
danecjensen
I'll throw in my 2 cents about Austin.

I've lived in SF and now I live in Austin.

Austin

Pros:

-Great Food, you can't find the type of food you get in austin anywhere else. Great BBQ, the best tacos, tons of food trailers and Tex-Mex

-Great Beer.

-beautiful down to earth women (I feel like this is SF's big problem it was extremely hard to meet women I was interested in)

-night life is amazing (most people in Austin don't work they just party)

-very bike friendly...you can bike the whole city in 30 mins (15 late at night). Austin is pretty flat (unlike SF) so biking is just so enjoyable.

-There's rivers and lakes and hiking right in the city

-The cost a living really can't be beat (cheap rent, cheap food, cheap beer). I can go to a bar and get a beer for $2.

-UT is right here (I don't know anything about there CS dept, but I think they have some pretty good grad school depts)

-THE WEATHER its almost always sunny. It gets hot in the summer but everywhere has great AC so you don't feel it. It's actually great to feel the heat and then be able to relax with AC. I prefer the weather here to SF where at least in the city its almost always a little rainy and cold.

-Great Airport (flys jetblue and southwest) and great public transit (even though you don't need because biking is so great)

-If you like music theres no place better

-SXSW is awesome every year

-no state income tax!

Cons:

-Tech Scene is super small (trying to change that)

-lots of hipsters (which is good and bad)

-I wish it were a little bigger

-no big mountains or ocean

------
zackattack
what about vancouver (canada)?

~~~
mikeyur
Size: Vancouver is a "big" city (or at least tries to be), but it's still
pretty small. Small in a good way though, the population is ~2m in the metro
area but the city itself is ~600k. The downtown core is completely walkable.
It's always more of a hassle to hop on the train for 2 stops than to just
walk. Clean, can't recall ever seeing poop (human or animal) on the sidewalk.

Rent: for downtown living in the more expensive parts, you're probably looking
at $1600-2500 cdn for a 2bdrm. Don't mind commuting 10-15 minutes on the
train/by bus: $1000-1600 for a decent place. You can get a studio or 1 bdrm in
the west end (downtown) for $800-1200, add a few hundred more if you're
looking at coal harbour/yaletown.

Outdoors: Parks, everywhere - a couple large ones and tons of small ones (a
couple soccer fields, running track, etc). You've got more ocean than you
could ever ask for and a couple local mountains (~20-25 mins from downtown by
driving, or take transit + gondola up grouse which will probably be an hour or
so). And you're 1 hour from Whistler. Lakes and camping within an hour of the
city. There's also Stanley Park right downtown. One of the biggest advantages
seems to be that you can get outdoors and feel 'out of the city' within the
city limits.

Entertainment: Hockey (NHL/WHL) and Canadian football. Same amount of large
bands coming through here as any major US city, good small venues as well for
some local bands and smaller acts.

Transit: The city has pretty decent transit and it's cheap. $2.50 for a
transfer (last 1.5hrs) or ~$80 for a 1 month, unlimited 1 zone pass. There are
3 SkyTrain lines which will get you downtown pretty quickly from anywhere
within Vancouver (15-18 mins max). Transit is pretty bus-oriented, but it's
never really been a problem for me. Getting out of downtown might be a problem
if you like to hang out past 2am and/or live in the sticks. Not much open 24
hours or really late other than a couple coffee shops and a handful of
restaurants.

Biking: I don't bike but the city seems fairly bike friendly (and getting
better), I believe we have 3 routes now with separated bike lanes downtown.
You can bike safely from anywhere within Vancouver. My neighbour bikes to work
every day from East Van which probably takes him 25-30 mins each way.

Tech Scene: It's alright, but we're working on it. I put together a startup
hackathon last month and met a bunch of fellow Vancouver HN users. There are a
couple startup incubators here and more coming (I believe), Bootup Labs seems
to be the most well known. There are angels, VCs and the like here - but
nowhere near the level of SF, NYC, Seattle.

Talent: 2 main schools with CS programs nearby (SFU and UBC), but talent seems
hard to find - it's here, you just need to look. If you do find it, it can be
fairly cheap though. Much much lower than the valley (from what friends have
told me), there are no Facebook-like companies driving up salaries here. I'm
probably going to get shanked at the next hacker meet up, but you can probably
get decent people for $35k/yr (junior) to $70k/yr (senior/leads).

A big problem seems to be that you can count 'notable' startups on one hand.
There are gaming companies here, both mobile/console and gambling. It's much
more relaxed here and people just want to live life well. There are hardcore
entrepreneurs and hackers here, but also a lot of wantrepreneurs and people
who want to come in at 10, take an hour lunch and leave by 5. Very little of
that 'startup culture' you hear so much about in San Francisco.

My opinion, but other Vancouverites feel free to criticize or add to this.

~~~
tpz
Very nicely summarized. I would like to add one minor note regarding
entertainment, just in case anyone considering Vancouver is a concert addict:

I find myself driving to Seattle for concerts more often than I would like.
Lots of acts come to Vancouver but lots of acts skip Vancouver, usually (from
what my music biz contacts tell me) because of two main reasons.

1\. It doesn't make sense to add a border crossing to their schedule if it
would mean doing just one show in Vancouver before returning back to the
states or elsewhere.

2\. Some acts have also quit coming to Vancouver because the audience attitude
has made shows less enjoyable to perform here. It is sad but doesn't surprise
me. I have watched audience enthusiasm progressively fade here, during the
last decade especially.

