
EFF: "Parallel construction" is really intelligence laundering - r0h1n
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/dea-and-nsa-team-intelligence-laundering
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DamnYuppie
I believe that a society needs the ability to forget the transgressions of
people. This gives us the ability as individuals to grow, otherwise we will be
narrowly cast into a role that will determined by actions years ago or in our
youth.

I know many will overreact and bring out extreme examples of murder or serious
violent crimes. Yet that is not what those who are utilizing these tools are
going after and prosecuting. They are generally minor or petty crimes, at
least that I have read about so far. It seems like an overzealous us of a tool
for perfunctory government twerps to feel empowered and make a case for their
continued existence...not at all beneficial in the short or long term

~~~
randallsquared
"I believe that a society needs the ability to forget the transgressions of
people."

I hope that's not true, because if it is, our society is doomed.

The continued development of smaller and cheaper sensors means that our
"choice" is between a world in which no one has privacy, or in which only
special entities of some sort do. The attempt to protect privacy is one with
the attempt to stop information sharing of all other kinds -- possible for
specific instances, but not for the general case.

~~~
michaelwww
> "I believe that a society needs the ability to forget the transgressions of
> people."

>> I hope that's not true, because if it is, our society is doomed.

I don't think he means what you think he means. I think he means "forgive" the
transgressions of people, because who should be punished for the phases we go
through in high school or college trying to figure out who we are? I would
wager that most people went through at least one period that they are now
embarrassed about. Probably the most common would be people who drank to much
and acted out but have since figured out that drinking for them is not a good
idea and so don't do it.

~~~
eruditely
Your example is so naive that it just might become the one period you were
embarrassed about.

~~~
michaelwww
The last sentence is clumsily written if that's what you mean eruditely [with
erudition; in an erudite manner;] I didn't take the time to make it shorter.

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joseflavio
There are at least 3 scary factors in this. 1 - What will be next crime that
is big enough that justify using this? File sharing? Drinking in public?
Jaywalking? Driving above the speed limit? 2 - The data is collected forever!
Our current law system is not just in a situation which the prosecutors can
dig your past to find problems! Imagine you do some graffiti (ok, I know it is
vandalism) to express your indignation, now, if you are _ideologically_ an
enemy of the state, they can dig for crimes your whole life...! 3 - The
collected data can be used to prosecute you but it can not be used to innocent
you.

edit: spelling

~~~
ihsw
> The collected data can be used to prosecute you but it can not be used to
> innocent you.

Actually that would constitute a Brady violation[1]:

> The prosecutor must disclose exculpatory evidence known only to the police.
> That is, the prosecutor has a duty to reach out to the police and establish
> regular procedures by which the police must inform him of anything that
> tends to prove the innocence of the defendant.

Now, it's at the discretion of the prosecutor, but if you had evidence that
evidence was withheld then can exercise some recourse against the prosecutor.
Often-times it results in a re-trial rather than a cash settlement or the case
being dismissed.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_disclosure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_disclosure)

~~~
cgshaw
Attorney here.

What's perhaps scarier is that the prosecutor wouldn't even know when / if
possible exculpatory evidence exist or whether their evidence is fruit of the
poisonous tree (fancy way of saying legitimate evidence that is found as a
result of illegal search & seizure). I spoke with 3 buddies yesterday that are
prosecutors and they told me they hated this concept of "parallel
construction," they felt like it took prosecutorial discretion out of their
hands and made their job—to uphold our laws—more difficult.

Now, there are bad prosecutors out there. People motivated by politics and
self interest, but they are the few. The folks that just want convictions and
to better their stats. Those folks will likely never care where they get the
ammunition to "put away the bad guys."

~~~
xradionut
"Now, there are bad prosecutors out there. People motivated by politics and
self interest, but they are the few."

There's probably more than a few. Consider the large number of cases that have
been overturned in Illinois and Texas over that last decade or so. Many of
these folks were railroaded and only saved by volunteers and brave attorneys.

And for all the damage these "common" criminals did, consider that much of the
recent massive economic fraud done and damage caused by well connected
"businessmen" and "bankers" will not go punished due to lack of enforcement
and statue of limitations.

TANJ!

~~~
Spooky23
If you dig into it, you're probably looking at a relatively small subset of
District Attorney/State Attorneys whose offices handle a high volume of cases.

Look at anyone like a cop, nurse, teacher, CPS worker, etc that works in a
highly dysfunctional community, you'll find that some folks get really jaded
and start to see things that don't really exist. The things that these people
see are horrible and some folks can't cut it. It's hard to unsee the 30-40
active child abuse cases that a Chicago CPS worker deals with every week, and
the support structures in the organizations are often nonexistent, which
allows bad behavior to take place.

They stop thinking of the people in the community as people and see them as
perps. Potentially exonerating evidence is perceived as a speed-bump or
excuse.

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eegilbert
Especially relevant today: Slave records from the 19th century were used to
enforce racial purity laws 100 years later.

[http://backstoryradio.org/shows/keeping-
tabs](http://backstoryradio.org/shows/keeping-tabs)

~~~
pessimizer
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust#Holocaus...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust#Holocaust_implications)

\--Godwin

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ihsw
The legality of it is very difficult to challenge (must be done on case-by-
case), so a loud smear campaign is our only recourse. Whether the "reliable
tip" came from legal or questionable sources is immaterial when there is clear
and obvious evidence implicating someone.

We can't forget that the NSA is one of many[1] intelligence agencies in the
USG, so this parallel construction phenomenon isn't directly attributed to the
NSA's spying efforts being focused domestically.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_intelligence_community#Membe...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_intelligence_community#Members)

~~~
mtgx
Couldn't it work the same as with those cases where lab evidence was tainted
for thousands of people at once, and they needed retrial?

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derefr
Really, "parallel construction" sounds like what any forensic analyst would do
in the case of definitive-yet-inadmissible evidence: find other evidence to
prove what you already "know" (which can also turn out to go against what you
"know.") In other words, just do your job anyway, just taking the inadmissible
evidence as a hint of what to look for.

~~~
grecy
> In other words, just do your job anyway, just taking the inadmissible
> evidence as a hint of what to look for.

But then you're allowing evidence collection by any means.

I'll just break into your house and rifle through your documents and
possessions until I find evidence you have committed a crime. Better yet, I'll
kidnap and torture you until you confess to something. Once I have that
(illegal) confession, I'll start my "parallel construction" until I find
another way to prove you guilty of whatever it was you confessed to.

See any problem with that?

~~~
AnthonyMouse
> See any problem with that?

Exactly. The purpose of the rule excluding improperly obtained evidence is to
penalize the government for obtaining it improperly. It's a mechanism designed
to ensure compliance: Take away the ability of law enforcement to benefit by
breaking the rules and you get less rule breaking.

What this is is an end run around all that. The government benefits from
violating the constitution by learning which rocks to turn over to make their
case and the courts can't punish them for that by taking away the fruits of
the illegal search because the government doesn't tell them about it in the
first place.

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pivnicek
We got this warrant to search your house because we've already searched your
house.

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snissn
It's like cheating at cards or battleship and getting the right answer. Then
later making up a plausible reason how you knew where their battleship would
be.

~~~
apalmer
Its like:

1) Government Employee A uses wire taps, NSA, any evidence finding method at
all including inadmissable evidence, illegally aquired evidence, or classified
means to collect data

2) Government Employee A anonymously calls Government Employee B and gives
them specific actionable tip that Government Employee B is aware is already
vetted by a Government Employee and hence is highly reliable

3) Government Employee B uses specific tip to gather further evidence, then
using all available evidence sources constructs an alternative 'plausible' but
false way that the evidence trail was generated, and presents this to the jury
as truth... the prosecutor and judge may or may not be made aware of the true
investigation/evidence trail

4) Government officially endorses this method as standard policy

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gbin
IMHO This recycling of information can lead to even more abuse. The NSA can do
anything illegal and mask it so it can be used domestically then. ie. They can
drag somebody outside the US, torture him for "tips" and give the info to
another agency that will protect the source of it by bullshitting the
prosecutor. Gitmo v2 but nobody would know.

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keithg
So what can we do about it? This is a serious question, not a rhetorical one.
Given our recent enlightenment of government agency behavior, what can we as
citizens do to get things moving in a different direction?

~~~
betterunix
There are a few things we can do:

1\. Write to your congressman. Tell them that this is unacceptable.

2\. Vote third party. Put the hurt on the major parties and force them to
move, and if they do not move, remove them and put new parties in their place.

3\. Educate people. This is no longer just a crazy conspiracy theory or a
bunch of paranoid fears. You have cops, prosecutors, etc. admitting that this
is common practice.

Also, take a moment to reflect on just how many other things had to happen for
us to get into this situation. We are here because something as mundane as a
traffic stop can and often does lead to a felony arrest. The intelligence
gathering would accomplish nothing if it were not for the massive number of
laws, the massive number of victimless crimes, and the vast power we have
given to the police. The next time you hear a politician talking about the
need to get tough on crime, the need to give the police more power to arrest
people, the need for more laws, look back on this and ask yourself if you
really want a strict law-and-order society.

Be sure to tell others about it too. We need more than an irrelevant minority
to understand just how dangerous things are getting.

~~~
jivatmanx
2\. Vote in primary elections, then vote third party in general.

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jrjarrett
So what do we DO about things like this? What IS there to do? I fear our
freedom as Americans is eroding away and our elected officials are not going
to stop it.

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dllthomas
"Parallel construction" is really perjury.

