
Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer” - cbcowans
http://themacro.com/articles/2016/09/introducing-ask-a-female-engineer
======
houselouse
> Invite women you work with for coffee

No chance of this being misinterpreted.

    
    
       Invite women you work with for coffee and 
       ask what they like or dislike about their
       day-to-day. If they mention concerns or
       problems they’re having, ask if there’s
       any way you could help make it better.

~~~
wrsh07
Ask _everyone_ you work with for coffee. Please don't omit the women.

I've mentored new hires, and in that context it's easy to say, "hey can we get
tea and talk about how the first few weeks have been?"

~~~
bjourne
What about asking _no one_? :) Some of us prefers to drink our coffee by
ourselves.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
That is perfectly acceptable. Well, you know, some folks will look down on you
for the antisocial bit of it (which is a shame, some people relish their alone
time), but if you are doing it equally, no real harm done either.

~~~
bjourne
And some folks will look down on you for being a female. Guess we are in the
same boat?

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Oh, I give them other reasons as well. I'm pretty quiet myself, I'm an
immigrant, _and_ my hair is blue. :D

Edit: I actually find the woman thing being the least of the problems now. It
was a bigger issue living in the US than here in Norway, it seems.

------
32wattle_park
Hi, I got my CS degree from a university in Australia back in the early 90s.
It was hard to find a job after I graduated, lots of companies prefer guys to
work for them. So I had to start from a very bottom position, data entry.
After a year, I managed to find a position as a junior programmer. I had the
lowest salary in the team. I liked technical challenges, but hardly got any
because all the interesting projects went to the male (junior mostly)
programmers. Younger male programmers were more ambitious, in terms of getting
somewhere. So they didn't stay in the company for long. One day, we received a
job for a big government project (multi millions dollars) and there was only
me, the manager and the project manager left. So I was sent to do the project
with no prior experience or knowledge for this particular software. Long story
short, I managed to complete the project, by myself within the time frame. I
built the hardware (cards, screws, motherboard etc) by myself, installed,
configured and programmed the whole thing. During the project, I was never
invited to a technical meeting. I believed I was the first female in Australia
to build this particular system.

Then I moved to another job, with higher salary. It was hell. The bullying was
obvious, even in front of the customer. It was very stressful time for me.
Then I got pregnant. After 3 months, I notified my manager that I was
pregnant. I was made redundant few weeks later.

The whole experiences were very stressful for me. It was a brutal environment.
IT industry is not kind to female staff. I did not enjoy sitting and coding
for hours/days/weeks. I enjoyed building the hardware, writing code to make it
work etc. The commitment to long hours also discouraging. I know a few female
around my age that have CS degree and were doing IT stuff but gave it up
because the environment were too toxic. Most of them gave it up after having
kids or switch to other non technical job. Having lots of overseas workers
coming to do the job also bringing in a different set of culture into the tech
world. They provide cheap labour, but it does not mean they solve the problem
of gender diversity in the long run. In fact they might contribute to the
current problem. What I can see, employee would hire foreign workers
(graduated in foreign countries) first instead of giving Australian female
graduates the position. my2c.

~~~
abz10
I'm an Australian male who moved to the US. I don't recommend anyone, male or
female, work in tech in Australia. The pay is crap and housing is ridiculously
expensive. Think SF'ish rent for midwest pay.

~~~
Chris2048
Oh? I heard pay was ok?

Is that not the case? Or is it ok compared to Europe?

------
beardicus
Interesting. I've been watching "Ask a Female Engineer" for years now, except
they just call it "Ask an Engineer". Here's Adafruit's weekly show by that
name:

[https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7AE4BFB81D3DC925](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7AE4BFB81D3DC925)

------
redDictionary
I would like to ask a female engineer some things.

1) do you think there are more men in engineering exclusively as a result of
men being prejudiced against women?

2) do you think your male co-workers are less qualified to be engineers
because they were hired for their gender?

3) one of the engineers in this article said she felt uncomfortable being
aware of being the only female. Can anyone explain what causes the discomfort?

~~~
20years
My answers as a female.

1.) Not completely. This profession isn't appealing to a lot of women for many
reasons outside of it being prominently male dominated.

2.) No

3.) In my early career I was always the only female on smaller male dominated
teams. New male devs that came in initially automatically assumed I was
administration. It only took a few days for them to realize what I did and all
had total respect after.

I personally think the heavy PR push towards women in code over the last
couple of years has made it more uncomfortable for women in the profession. I
for one don't want that kind of spotlight on me. I want to be judged for my
capabilities not for my gender. I am also turned off by companies who heavily
promote that they hire women/men equally. I want to be chosen because they
think I am the best fit for the job not because they are trying to fill some
more female seats.

~~~
cynoclast
>I personally think the heavy PR push towards women in code over the last
couple of years

It's not been 'the last few years' It's been about 30, now. I can remember
them pushing when I was in elementary school.

Also, it's a misnomer to call it '[gender] dominated'. Tech is largely female
_rejected_. Just as most men reject teaching, nursing, or the social sciences.
Those aren't female dominated either, but male rejected.

I'm perfectly happy working with competent people of either gender. I don't
give a shit what's in their pants. Just don't be an idiot and we're all good.

~~~
Whitestrake
It does seem to me that calling it female-rejected is a more accurate way of
framing this topic.

Addressing it this way doesn't diminish or invalidate the issues people have
with this state of affairs. And it still allows people to constructively ask
the question, when a desire to increase the diversity within tech workplaces
is present: How do we make tech more attractive to females?

"Male dominated" is, yes, technically the current state of the tech industry,
but it's not accurate to ascribe male domination as a self-fulfilling cause
when female rejection consists of many other reasons too.

~~~
Chris2048
> doesn't diminish or invalidate the issues people have

It depends what those issues are

> still allows people to constructively ask the question.. How do we make tech
> more attractive to females?

Why is this of value? If tech as it is isn't attractive to females, why dress
it up? Do we do the same with any other field?

The word "dominated" or "domination" does have a slight stigma attached.

~~~
Whitestrake
Sorry for the late reply.

> It depends what those issues are

Not really. Female rejection implies and is consistent with male domination,
it's simply addressing the root cause rather than the symptom. It doesn't
claim to change the situation at all.

> Why is this of value?

First, let me stress that this is not a cause I've picked up for myself, so
I'm not the ideal person to ask.

However, within this thread there are sources that show measurable benefits to
increased diversity in the workplace. As I wrote in the very sentence you
partially quoted:

> when a desire to increase the diversity within tech workplaces is present,

What I'm saying here isn't that the question needs to be asked, merely that
addressing the issue in this way doesn't preclude people who DO want to ask
it.

~~~
Chris2048
I'm also sorry for late reply, was on holiday :-)

"measurable benefits to increased diversity" is a little suspect. What kind of
benefit, and to _who_. I don't accept that any good end justify the means.

Also, Male domination is the _result_ of female rejection. To flip causality,
you have to show that women want to go into tech, but are prevented from doing
so.

------
emilecantin
> Once I was representing my company at a career fair with a male engineer. He
> and I were standing next to each other ready to take resumes and answer
> questions, but all the candidates lined up in front of him. I tried writing
> “SOFTWARE ENGINEER” in big letters on my name tag, but even then had to
> continuously tell people in line “I’m an engineer and can answer your
> questions too!”

Having been in a few career fairs, there _is_ a tendency for females to be HR,
and males to be engineers. That's kind of sad, but the only way to reverse
that trend is to have more male HR reps and more female engineers, so please
continue going!

------
rcba
How active should men be in actually helping to solve the gender diversity
problem vs sitting on the sidelines and sharing the work of women who are
solving the problem?

I've been working on an initiative to encourage more of my male peers to do
more to make their organisations more diverse and was recently criticised by a
female software engineer who told me that I shouldn't "come into a feminist
space" where "women are already organising, telling stories and advocating for
themselves".

All views appreciated!

~~~
ue_
I really do not mean to be confrontational, as I understand that this is a
charged topic on all sides, but I'd like to ask why making tech more diverse
(in terms of race or gender) is preferable.

My first instinct would be to say that if it's more diverse, women or racial
minorities are more likely to come into tech because they might feel more
comfortable there. But then we're back at square one: why do we want them to
come?

Please make no mistake, I'm not saying that diversity is bad, but I don't see
why it's good either, and further why it must be pursued.

~~~
klara_engineer
A) I see the tech industry shaping the future for the world. The world is
comprised of a diverse group of people. How can a narrow group of people
understand the needs of everyone?

B) There are a shortage of labor in tech

~~~
exstudent2
> I see the tech industry shaping the future for the world. The world is
> comprised of a diverse group of people. How can a narrow group of people
> understand the needs of everyone?

People should build tech that they find interesting. It's not our job as
engineers to try to save the world. I program because I find it inherently
fascinating. If other people benefit from my work, great. If not, great.

> There are a shortage of labor in tech

When programmer salaries rival those of upper management then we can say
there's a shortage. Right now there's a desire to maximize executive salaries
while minimizing programmer costs. That what "women in tech" is _really_
about.

~~~
ajdlinux
> People should build tech that they find interesting. It's not our job as
> engineers to try to save the world. I program because I find it inherently
> fascinating. If other people benefit from my work, great. If not, great.

This is one of the attitudes that I dislike the most among certain parts of
the tech industry. (I work pretty much exclusively in open source, where this
is particularly strong.) Our work has real consequences for real people. Our
decisions in setting the direction of projects, products and companies end up
being good for some people and bad for others.

Sure, I program because I find it fascinating - but to ignore the broader
social context of what we do is just selfish.

(FWIW, one of the other attitudes that I also hate among certain parts of our
industry is that "engineers should try to save the world". That's just plain
arrogant.)

~~~
exstudent2
We definitely disagree there. For me creating technology is like creating art.
Sure some artists may have a mainstream social agenda but some may just be
weirdos who need to paint to stay sane :) I don't see it as my or anyone
else's place to dictate what a creative individual's motivation should be.

I'll also say as a user, some of my favorite projects started off as mad
science type things that weren't created to push an agenda or social cause
(some were though).

------
minimaxir
Can you add an introductory blurb (education, current company/role) for each
respondant? It's hard to tie in experiences to just a first name.

~~~
cbcowans
We intentionally left those out and used pseudonyms so the engineers would
feel comfortable answering candidly

~~~
minimaxir
Ah, missed that note in the intro.

That's an approach I disagree with, especially since there are many female
engineers who are willing to discuss these issues openly and would benefit
from the exposure from The Macro/HN.

~~~
cbcowans
Absolutely, but we feel like there’s room for more than one approach here.
Part of this experiment is to see whether anonymity on both sides allows for a
freer discussion. That being said, if women who join the conversation would
like to use their real names we'd be glad to post those.

~~~
andreasklinger
Also those women might not want to diffuse their personal brand.

Eg. I imagine it to be quite hard to be primarily known for engineering work
and not for "example for female in engineering"

------
abz10
Are we allowed to ask them Engineering questions?

~~~
cbcowans
Of course!

------
damagednoob
Are they cherry-picking the answers? I would be interested in Jean's answer to
the first question.

~~~
jean_engineer
Hello, I'm Jean. I didn't answer the first question because I have tele-
commuted for a very long time. My entire interaction with co-workers is over
email, github, slack, hangouts, etc.

~~~
MollyR
I'm thinking about having a child, and possibly telecommuting. Did you run
into any issues that might have been related to gender ?

I'm pretty sure I'm not planning to tell them I'm pregnant if I can avoid it.

~~~
jean_engineer
I have only tele-commuted on teams where most or all of the team also tele-
commuted, often from different timezones. Some jobs there was no corporate
office even if I had wanted to work in one. It would be much harder to be on a
team where most of them are together in an office, able to talk face-to-face.
Also tele-commuting is not a work/child-care combination. I have a separate
office. When my kids were young, I always had full child care coverage, as
though I wasn't there.

------
pcsanwald
My wife just tried to email to offer to participate, the email bounced.

~~~
cbcowans
Sorry about that! Issue should be resolved now if she'd like to retry.

------
fatdog
Two questions:

1\. In the same job (say, sr. developer) with equivalent qualifications, what
differences in approach, behavior, and performance can one attribute to
someone being a man or a woman?

2\. How would you recommend responding to a peer, a subordinate, or a superior
who behaves in a way that reinforces negative stereotypes about their
identity?

~~~
cbcowans
I've taken note of your questions for our future posts. Thank you for asking!

------
user5994461
The solution to all gender problems: Actively ignore all topics and articles
with "woman" or "female" in the title.

People are who they are and go where they want. Tech is no exception.

When one walks into a car garage, one doesn't make a fuss about mechanics
being all men.

When one walks into a kindergarden, one doesn't make a fuss about teachers
being all women.

~~~
fasdf
I do think that kindergarten teachers being all women is a big problem. If I
have a son someday, I would want him to have some good male teachers that he
can look up to from a young age. I had one in 5th grade and it really helped
me.

~~~
ythl
Actually, it's becoming a pretty big problem not just for kindergartens, but
for K-12 teachers in general. K-12 is completely dominated by women, while
colleges and universities are split between STEM (male professors) and liberal
arts (female)

~~~
tomjakubowski
Do you have a source for the gender split among STEM and liberal arts
professors?

------
janettejones
I thought the comment about Australia was pretty random - I'm guessing this
engineer is an Australian? I don't understand the context - are they saying
that Australia doesn't have problems with gender bias? Because that is
certainly not the case.

------
danso
I would like to know some origin stories, e.g. "Where were you before? How did
you get into engineering?" I mean, the answers to these are interesting
regardless of occupation or identity.

~~~
cbcowans
Thanks for posting! We've added them to our list of questions.

------
wmeredith
On attending a meeting as a female engineer... "I immediately figure out who
is likely to hear me out based on our previous interactions. Then I’ll
purposefully sit somewhere near those allies. If I’m feeling less confident
when I’m speaking, I’ll look at them first. I’m less likely to even speak up
in meetings where I don’t feel like I have supportive people. I don’t often
feel like I’m not heard at meetings, but I think that’s because I’m careful
about when I choose to speak."

What does this have to do with being a female? It sounds like every meeting
I've ever attended.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
Because any aspect of the human condition as experienced by women, or
minorities, or anyone really, is a problem unique to that sub-group.
Apparently. And needs to be explicitly called out as a problem.

I don't get it. I mean, as a middle-aged white guy in an affluent society with
social welfare and healthcare I've _never_ experienced anything uncomfortable,
of course. Never experienced anything unpleasant.

~~~
throwanem
Come on, man. How many middle-aged white guys, or white guys, or just _guys_ ,
have you seen hounded out of our industry by death threats and rape threats? I
despise identity politics, but I kind of think you have to be trying pretty
hard not to see that there's a problem here.

~~~
delroth
I think you don't see as many men "hounded out of our industry" because that's
a property of how sensitive the person is and how much they're looking for
drama, not really how many death threats they receive.

I have personally received death threats multiple times after making
"controversial" changes to an open source project I work on (as in: good in
the long term for the project, bad in the short term for users). And I stopped
counting the number of times I've read I should "kill myself". But guess what,
instead of writing long blog posts explaining I'll quit open source
development because of death threats, I just ignore them and continue doing
what's best for the project. So far I don't think I've died yet, so that seems
to be working pretty well.

There's also the long tail of death threats you won't even find out unless you
look for them specifically (like, going on 4chan to read users talking about
your project there). I've seen some other contributors to similar projects
getting personally insulted, called "greedy jews" because they asked for
donations to buy research hardware, and also being heavily encouraged to kill
themselves. They also don't make drama about it, and in fact they'd probably
be quite unhappy that I'm even mentioning it publicly.

So yeah, if I were looking to create drama I'd have more than enough material
to do so, and I also could probably get "hounded out of my industry" if I was
willing to.

~~~
throwanem
I appreciate you taking the time, and I get where you're coming from. That's
also a very poor comment of mine that you're responding to. I've left it as it
stood because otherwise the longer one elsewhere in this thread would probably
not make as much sense. That one may be more worth your while than the one to
which you responded.

------
bitchypat
Do you think it's funny that you titled the interview as you did and chose the
first question to be "how conscious are you of being a female engineer as
opposed to just an engineer"?

I do.

~~~
wmeredith
I do, too. This is a little cringey.

------
FT_intern
Diversity initiatives for the tech world baffle me. The tech world is already
very diverse, along lines that transcend race and gender.

I am talking about national diversity. Engineering teams are composed of a
huge percentage of foreign born workers who carry truly diverse experiences.
The difference in experience between nationalities completely trumps the
differences in experience between gender and race within the same nationality.

Looking for diversity in the form of race and gender is unproductive given the
current diversity in the work force. American females have a very similar
experience as American males, as do African Americans and White Americans in
this context. Americans regardless of race and gender are all part of the same
tribe.

The current diversity in the tech world have made in groups almost non-
existent. No one nationality has had a large enough share of the engineering
population for in groups to form and be problematic.

tldr: Diversity in the form of nationality is prevalent in the tech world.
National diversity creates true diversity while gender and race diversity
creates insignificant diversity.

~~~
jchendy
> American females have a very similar experience as American males

How can you say that after reading the first question in the article? Do you
think the editor was just cherry picking the most extreme anecdotes they could
find?

~~~
generic_user
I don't think anyone has the same experience that anyone else has regardless
of the gender.

But this whole project is one big carefully edited carefully constructed
exercise in social activism designed to promote the feminist narrative that
the tech industry is a horrible misogynistic man cave. And also spread the
idea that Male dominated professions are somehow inherently bad and need to
redeemed by stuffing more Women into the industry by force.

------
jshevek
> I’m constantly aware of being female. When a coworker looks to a junior male
> engineer on the team for help instead of me, a senior engineer.

This sounds like it could easily be confirmation bias. There is a long list of
hypothetical reasons why this might be the case, including the desire to not
bother a senior person - whose time is more valuable - by pestering them with
questions that a junior person could answer.

If one is inclined to assume that this is a result of sexism, they are going
to see imaginary sexism everywhere.

> Or when someone corrects my code in a way that shows their default
> assumption is that I don’t know something rather than that I made a mistake.

By some value systems, this would be the more generous assumption. If they
were always assuming someone made a mistake (rather than simply being
ignorant), one could equally well complain that this (the inverse assumption)
was a result of sexism.

------
generic_user
My question is why do feel people should ask you questions as 'Engineers' when
you are posing anonymously with no qualifications or specific engineering
credentials?

This leads me to the conclusion that this project should be renamed as "Ask a
Female". Clearly this is the intention no?

My second question then is why do you think "Ask a Female questions" is an
appropriate service for an audience that is concerned with
Computing,Technology and related business ventures?

This seems like rather blatant stereotyping on your part. You are making the
assumption that your audience are Men that have no Woman around to ask
questions.

I have plenty of Woman around to ask questions without your service. And also
plenty of engineers who I know the credentials of and trust there judgement
whom I can ask technical questions. The thought that I would need some
anonymous Woman to answer my random questions about no defined topic in
particular is a little creepy.

------
neom
The most mind boggling part of this whole thread is it appears that there are
many people who don't know how to begin active communication with another
human. What isn't being taught in schools?

~~~
qu4z-2
The stereotypes about hackers having learned computers instead of (or due to a
lack of) social skills aren't created entirely of whole cloth.

I'm personally more surprised that there are people on Hacker News who are
surprised by this (although of course it's not true for many people).

------
gjolund
Here's my question:

"Why do you feel the need to constantly bring up your gender?"

~~~
Mz
"Because it is clear to me that it has caused problems in male dominated
environments. I find it works better to take the bull by the horns and deal
with that head on than to try to pretend I am not being treated differently
when I am, in fact, being treated differently.

Thank you for asking."

(I am a woman, but not an engineer, fwiw.)

~~~
gjolund
I want to be treated the same as everyone else.

Unless I am feeling uncomfortable, and then I want to be treated differently.

~~~
Mz
I have covered this before:

[http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/01/oh-my-god-
it...](http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/01/oh-my-god-its-
girl.html)

So I assume you don't actually know me. Because, no, that isn't my position.

~~~
gjolund
I don't know you, but I agree with what you have to say.

2) Talk to people who disagree with me (definitely applies)

3) Engage in polite public hand-slapping (I have benefited from this on
occasion)

I have experienced the other side of the coin. I have been in several hiring
positions where I was forced to hire more female engineers out of a desire to
build a diverse workforce.

I have passed over qualified candidates for unqualified ones in the name of
"diversity". To me that is more damaging to the perception of women in tech
than anything else, and leads to environments where women in tech are viewed
through an adversarial lens.

To me it feels like a one-way conversation, where gender is a trump card that
automatically gives one side the right of way.

If it were up to me I wouldn't know a candidates gender until the first day
they showed up for work.

~~~
Mz
I am doing what I can to promote better stuff. Though that mostly means
blogging and giving my two cents worth in places like HN.

Join me in this diabolical plot. :-)

And have an upvote.

------
NTDF9
Not trying to be sarcastic but how would the world respond if someone starts,
"Ask a male engineer"?

~~~
reitanqild
Try rather with: "ask a male nurse".

That is more comparable, i.e.: both are perfectly normal, but both are not too
common for historical and possibly other reasons.

~~~
NTDF9
But I'm not trying to 'balance' anything out. Equality means equal regardless
of gender.

So if one can have "Ask a female athlete", why not "Ask a male athlete". Your
example is valid too.

This is a genuine question. How would it be unequal for males to start such a
forum for anything they want?

~~~
reitanqild
> This is a genuine question. How would it be unequal for males to start such
> a forum for anything they want?

While I do care a lot I don't identify with the typical "SJW", so I think this
should be perfectly OK, only very boring so I wouldn't create it.

~~~
NTDF9
Boring really?

As a male who enjoys company of other males (not sexually), I have not found
it boring at all. Mixed groups have definitely been socially better but I'd
pick male mentoring forums any day.

Boring isn't the first thing that comes to mind when I think of male-spaces.
More like brotherhood, mentorship and competition.

~~~
reitanqild
I see. Don't name it that way then. It just annoys people and make it sound
like you can only ask questions about being a male engineer which is kind of
uneventful it seems.

Truth to be told I know there are women that enjoy hanging around in almost
all-male groups as well because they find it more relaxed. Possibly wouldn't
have believed if one of them hadn't told me though.

------
tomc1985
The more attention you draw on diversity, the less diversity you receive.
Diversity is supposed to be impartial and tolerant, yet it seems the
prescribed approach is to carve out separate "spaces" for different feelings
and situations. How is this building bridges in the so-called "gender divide"?

True diversity is complete and utter impartiality. Why are we focusing on all
these useless, pretty, inspirational solutions (interviews, diversity name-
and-shame, putting females in a zoo) when we really need to be attacking the
mental characteristics that lead to sexist thought?

It's interesting she mentions voice so much. We men need to check our
emotional responses to stupid inputs like "sound of voice" or "shape of body"
or whatever. These things DO NOT MATTER. All that matters is ability. Nothing
else!

~~~
zamalek
I think that getting women involved in STEM does exactly this:

> attacking the mental characteristics that lead to sexist thought

It's a forcing function. I really think that the current plan is the most
logical approach given the current situation; though, we _do_ need to
eventually move away from it. Exactly when is going to be hard to nail down;
too soon and everyone will revert to their sexist ways, too late and it's
ceremony - not change.

In lieu of what you are saying, everyone needs to come to the table. This type
of thing also needs to go away:

> Ada: [...] Otherwise I get home at night and realize I haven’t heard another
> woman’s voice all day.

I understand where she's coming from, though. As a trailblazer it might be
hard when you realize that you are alone.

~~~
tomc1985
> I think that getting women involved in STEM does exactly this: > attacking
> the mental characteristics that lead to sexist thought

I agree, but only as long as the end result is the best candidate for the job
being hired. Granting special consideration to a group is just as bad as
shutting them out.

~~~
zamalek
Exactly:

* It becomes impossible for women to measure their growth. "Did I earn this promotion because of my gender?" As a man I face this reality all the time and it _sucks._

* It becomes impossible for society to measure progress in terms of the overall moral compass. "Are people only hiring women because they are forced to?"

~~~
mavhc
Doesn't matter in the end, once you get equality, then you can stop the
positive bias, and also the problems of existing bias should reduce to near
zero

~~~
ManlyBread
How utopian.

------
crapolasplatter
“Ask a Female Engineer”

Why leave other important engineering characteristics out? Are you
fat,skinny,tall,short,ugly,pretty , white,or black?

I really don't see the importance of sex in relations to engineering.

Nor understand the desire to get more fat,skinny,tall,short,ugly,pretty ,
white, black , male or females involved in engineering.

~~~
crapolasplatter
For those that are down voting, care to expand on why?

Or perhaps explain why the following characteristics are irrelevant or less
important when it comes to engineering:

fat,skinny,tall,short,ugly,pretty , white,or black?

~~~
vacri
You're welcome to start your own "ask a fat engineer" page. Other people don't
have to cater their topics to your personal interests.

Here, you can start an "ask a tall engineer" page with some comments from me:
office chairs are too small and I have to shift posture constantly; communal
desks are too low; and there's nowhere high enough to try a standing desk.

~~~
crapolasplatter
Nice, why the hostility? Nobody said anything about catering .

I was curious on the importance of defining the individual as female , but
leaving other non engineering characteristics out?

~~~
vacri
> _Nice, why the hostility?_

Because your original comment wasn't innocent or genuine, and you already know
the answer to it. It's a comment that gets made every. single. time. something
like this comes up, has been answered a million times before, and it's not
worth pandering to.

------
jasoncchild
Cue defensive comments from male readers...

~~~
Chinjut
Boy oh boy, so many. Any time a woman dares to lament how maybe her
experiences in tech are colored by that minority status, Hacker News pounces
en masse with little self-awareness.

Not everyone on HN, of course. But, overall, threads like this are...
distressing to read.

~~~
exstudent2
I think there's quite a bit of self-awareness and honesty in questioning these
types of initiatives.

So many of these "women in tech" discussions are thiny veiled power plays to
take economic and decision making power away from developers. In the past few
years we've seen feminists call for Linus Torvalds' head, attacks on the
_concept_ of meritocracy, codes of conduct forced down many open source
project's throats, masses of women only networking and hiring events,
diversity drives that favor hiring women over men, _many_ social media witch
hunts against engineers of all levels...

At some point you have to step back and question the narrative that's being
pushed. There is not, and never has been anything stopping women from learning
to code. All you need is a computer, an internet connection and self
motivation.

~~~
keyboardhitter
> At some point you have to step back and question the narrative that's being
> pushed. There is not, and never has been anything stopping women from
> learning to code. All you need is a computer, an internet connection and
> self motivation.

I think the narrative is more focused on women being treated differently
(whether that is intentional or not) in existing social / work settings in the
industry. I did not get the impression this article was referring to learning,
but perhaps I missed those points.

------
benclarkwood
It is good to see YC trying to use its platform to move this discussion
forward, but I think that the title of the series is inherently troublesome.
Referring to women software engineers as _female_ software engineers is
reductive and dehumanizing. Men are not usually referred to as “males”.
Frankly, it sounds like a Ferenghi.

~~~
ewjordan
That's a bit of a knee-jerk, I think. Men _are_ referred to as "male software
engineers", because "men software engineers" sounds absolutely ridiculous.

The asymmetry you're thinking of is when people refer to women as "females"
and men as "men". That's a super offensive one, because we usually only use
"female" and "male" as nouns when speaking about animals. Better, more
specific words exist for humans.

In the current situation, though, "female" is being used as an adjective,
which is correct. The only alternative is to (ab)use "woman" as an apposite
noun, which sometimes works, but can go terribly wrong as a general rule: "Ask
a Man Nurse" vs. "Ask a Male Nurse"

All that said, due to common usage "woman" works as an apposite in many places
where "man" does not ("woman president" is fine, "man president" sounds
weird).

See
[http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2016/02/18/when_yo...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2016/02/18/when_you_should_use_female_woman_or_lady_as_an_adjective_a_guide.html)
for more on all this.

