
A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Meat Cases - rrauenza
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-stampede-of-meatless-products-overrun-grocery-store-meat-cases-1528653236
======
toomanybeersies
I'm not a vegetarian, but recently I've actually started eating these
vegetarian burger patties that my local supermarket sells. They're made from
beetroot, beans, and other vegetables. They don't really pretend to be meat,
you definitely know you're eating a vege patty.

I've actually discovered I prefer them to normal burger patties, they're
cheaper too. I've never been big on mince/ground meat though, I've never
really seen the point.

I'm definitely not a fan of those fake meat products like quorn. They fall
into some kind of uncanny valley [1] for food. They are like an inferior, more
expensive version of meat.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley)

~~~
lhorie
At the cafeteria at work, on burger days, meat and veggie patties are side-by-
side, and it's easy to taste the contrast between them.

I find it interesting that the meat burgers are these dry tasteless umami
blobs presumably to try to conform to the "low-fat! low sodium!" narrative of
how traditional food should be in order to be "healthy", but the veggie ones
are so packed with seasoning that I question whether they are in fact healthy.

I often end up getting one of each to balance things out.

------
asciimo
Here's a video of Adam Savage trying the Impossible Burger prepared by the
same chef in the WSJ video, Traci Des Jardins:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF9bf9uKQQk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF9bf9uKQQk)

Spoiler: he liked it.

~~~
cdibona
When prepared well (I had the same burger from the same chef) the impossible
burger is pretty burger like, though...more fibrous/long grained. When cooked
anything above 'medium rare' they're no better or worse than any veggie patty.

------
dmritard96
Have my doubts that this is as much a real issue as it is people upset over
change. When I buy 'beefless beef crumbles', I'm not confused. I'd be willing
to bet the number of people that are actually confused rounds to zero. As much
as I love the idea of veggie based meat parity, its still not there so even if
someone was confused once (which probably doesn't really happen), they won't
be confused the second time.

Also, at what point is the label about the content rather than the source?

If I make an impossible burger thats indistinguishable from an animal product,
does it matter that it came from plants?

What if I clone cells from meat tissue into steaks? Is that meat? It still
puts these guys out of business...

Change hurts, but pretending this is a naming issue is just posturing by an
industry that uses tons of land for grazing, for growing (multiple states in
the midwest dedicated to corn for feed..., and has been shown to treat animals
horribly. Why not just say 'what are we going to do' instead of some straw man
about semantics and marketplace confusion that doesn't really hold water.

~~~
frgtpsswrdlame
>When I buy 'beefless beef crumbles', I'm not confused.

You don't think someone may buy this product believing that it's actually
beef? It seems pretty easy to make that mistake to me. Besides if they
described themselves as 'beefless beef crumbles' instead of 'beef crumbles
beefy' it probably wouldn't be an issue.

[https://store.veganessentials.com/beyond-beef-crumbles-by-
be...](https://store.veganessentials.com/beyond-beef-crumbles-by-beyond-
meat-p4226.aspx)

>If I make an impossible burger thats indistinguishable from an animal
product, does it matter that it came from plants?

If I make a chicken patty from a caged chicken that's indistinguishable from
organic, free-range chickens, does it matter that it came from a cage? Can I
sell it as 'organic, free range chicken patties'?

Of course it matters. Consumers have a fundamental right to know what it is
that they're buying.

>Change hurts, but pretending this is a naming issue is just posturing by an
industry that uses tons of land for grazing

I'm not going to defend meat industry practices but pretending like this isn't
about actual false advertising is wrong. Look at these products.

[https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Beast-
Burger/13728403...](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Beast-
Burger/137284038)

[https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Chicken-Grilled-
Strip...](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Chicken-Grilled-
Strip/119191370)

These are being placed directly next to meat (you know, the animal flesh
kind). This most definitely _is_ an issue of false advertising.

~~~
taysic
I think there's an argument made that some packaging can be confusing. They
might think the term 'beyond meat' is clear enough but not everyone will.
Perhaps stores need to stock them in different locations - in fact, that's how
I nearly always see it done. I think supermarkets have ample incentive to not
deceive their customers.

At the same time, disallowing vegetarian companies from using the words 'milk'
or 'meat' seems like complete overreach. Vegetarians / vegans think of these
products in terms of what they are an imitation of, and they want to
understand what the product is going for. It's incredibly useful to be able to
use these terms. Not to mention they are already the way people colloquially
refer to them. I don't think the 'real' versions should have a monopoly on
those words at all.

~~~
frgtpsswrdlame
>At the same time, disallowing vegetarian companies from using the words
'milk' or 'meat' seems like complete overreach. Vegetarians / vegans think of
these products in terms of what they are an imitation of, and they want to
understand what the product is going for. It's incredibly useful to be able to
use these terms. Not to mention they are already the way people colloquially
refer to them. I don't think the 'real' versions should have a monopoly on
those words at all.

Well let's take it back to my chicken example. I'm raising antibiotic-loaded
chickens in tiny cages. I want consumers to think of my meat and egg products
in terms of what they are an imitation of - free range organic chicken
products. I think this would be really useful to the consumer. It also seems
unfair to me that only chicken which is actually free range or organic should
have a monopoly on those terms. Should I be able to include 'free range' or
'organic' in my advertising?

You see those chicken strips in my previous comment? What if instead of saying
'REAL MEAT' in big text and then below in smaller text '100% plant protein' \-
it said 'REAL ORGANIC' in big text and then below in smaller text it said
'cage raised'? It would obviously be wrong to attempt to confuse the consumer
in that way. I think people here are confusing whether realistic meat
substitutes are a good development (they are) and whether they're meat
(they're not.) If we just flip this scenario and pretend it's Tyson using the
same advertising practices as Beyond Meat it becomes obvious how wrong this
really is.

>Not to mention they are already the way people colloquially refer to them.

I have never heard anyone refer to a patty of soy and pea protein (or beets or
heme or what have you) as 'beef' or 'meat.' In my experience they call it a
'veggie burger.'

~~~
taysic
I don't think your argument is very strong. Calling something 'free range'
when it isn't would be akin to calling something purple when its orange. It
has a particular meaning. However, 'milk', 'meat', etc already have expanded
meanings as shown by how people use them colloquially. They are often used in
adjective form to describe something with a particular quality (milky, meaty)
because they are such broad words.

I completely agree 'Real meat' was confusing. We don't disagree there. Seems
like a deceptive advertising compliant is more appropriate there.

> I have never heard anyone refer to a patty of soy and pea protein (or beets
> or heme or what have you) as 'beef' or 'meat.' In my experience they call it
> a 'veggie burger.'

You just disproved yourself - they call it a veggie burger if it looks like a
burger, veggie sausage if it looks like sausage, almond milk if it looks like
milk, nut cheese if it looks like cheese etc. Also you just need to hang
around vegetarians more to hear 'veggie beef'. In fact, vegetarians just call
it 'meat', 'beef' etc to their friends as long as they all know what they're
talking about.

~~~
frgtpsswrdlame
>You just disproved yourself - they call it a veggie burger if it looks like a
burger

I don't think this disproves me at all. Consumers understand what sort of
product they're buying when purchasing a 'veggie burger' and they'd probably
know what they're buying if they were purchasing 'beef flavored veggie
crumbles' or 'plant-based beef crumbles' or 'veggie burger crumble.' All of
these would be totally clear. When you sell that vegetable based product as
'beefy beef crumbles' though I think you're crossing a line. Maybe we'll meet
the meat industry halfway and allow 'veggie meat' and 'veggie beef' but I
totally get why they're pushing for this because at the very least the terms
'meat' and 'beef' shouldn't be used unamended.

------
jonknee
> Cattlemen and dairy farmers are saddling up, and lawyering up, in response.
> The U.S. Cattlemen’s Association has petitioned the Agriculture Department
> to bar plant-based products from bearing labels that say “beef” or “meat,”
> with similar restrictions on meat grown from animal cells.

Good luck with that.

~~~
mc32
I’d like to add “milk” to that list. Some ground nuts or seeds emulsified in
some liquid should not be called milk. Milk, in a food context, should refer
to the substance produced by females of various mammalian species only.

~~~
cgh
Calling it milk also encourages people to give these products to infants in
the mistaken belief they are an acceptable substitute for real milk. Of course
they aren't, as real milk is nutrient-dense and nut "milks" are essentially
water unless they are fortified.

Also, almond farming is remarkably water-hungry. 10% of California's water use
is tied up in growing almonds.

~~~
grogenaut
Won't someone please think of the children!!! Do you have any evidence of
infant mortality or under nourishment because a parent mistook almond milk or
other for formula or regular milk?

~~~
undersuit
There have been vegan couples keeping their children on a vegan diet. But I
also think banning milk in the labeling of plant-milks is ridiculous.

[http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/08/child.starved/](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/08/child.starved/)

~~~
cannonedhamster
Amazingly there have been non vegan couples that malnourished their children
because they are stupid too. It's only a big deal because people like to hate
on vegans. Stupid parents are stupid parents.

------
frgtpsswrdlame
>Cattlemen and dairy farmers are saddling up, and lawyering up, in response.
The U.S. Cattlemen’s Association has petitioned the Agriculture Department to
bar plant-based products from bearing labels that say “beef” or “meat,” with
similar restrictions on meat grown from animal cells.

I understand their gripe with plant products, that sounds like deceptive
advertising. But the lab-grown stuff is still meat. I think they're trying to
take a yard here.

>High-tech upstarts say the proposed labeling rules are a poor defense,
pointing out that on a molecular level, plant-based meat products can contain
the same amino acids, fats and minerals as animal flesh.

>“People don’t get angry when you call your cellphone a phone,” said Ethan
Brown, chief executive of Beyond Meat.

Yes but if I try to buy a "computer" and you give me a phone, it's not a
defense to tell me that it still has RAM and hard storage and a screen, etc.
Veggies and tofu rolled into a patty may be a "burger" but it's not "meat" or
"beef."

>Jaime Athos, chief executive of the Tofurky Co., which sells imitation tofu-
based roasts and patties, objects to any ban on the word “meat” in labels.
Consumers hear tofu, he said, and “expect it to be bland or not meat-like.”

Jaime, this is your advertising challenge. You don't just pretend your product
is something else.

~~~
bunderbunder
> I understand their gripe with plant products, that sounds like deceptive
> advertising.

It really isn't, though, in practice. All these products have packaging that
is designed to make them immediately recognizable as plant-based products.
They want, first and foremost, to be attractive to their core market:
Vegetarians. They may make other overtures in an effort to attract people who
do eat meat, but those invariably involve trying to sell their being plant-
based as a thing that makes them a healthier product. Even the Beyond Meat
brand, which is the one that skirts the closest to being deceptive here, by
virtue of their name, still has "PLANT-BASED XXXX" written front, center, and
in large contrasting color letters on the packaging of their products.

Banning words like "beef" and "meat" from the packaging sounds like something
that would actually engender confusion among consumers, by effectively banning
phrases like "meat free" from the packaging.

This whole effort reads to me as a rather blatant example of rent seeking
behavior on the part of an incumbent industry in response to new entrants to
the market.

~~~
frgtpsswrdlame
>Even the Beyond Meat brand, which is the one that skirts the closest to being
deceptive here, by virtue of their name, still has "PLANT-BASED XXXX" written
front, center, and in large contrasting color letters on the packaging of
their products.

Do they though? I mean here look at this [1]. It totally supports your point,
"Plant-Based" is front and center in big green letters.

But what about this product? [2]

And what about this one? [3]

And this one? It says Real Meat right at the top. [4]

And these are going in the meat aisle? Right next to real, actual meat? This
is blatant false advertising and consumers _are_ going to be tricked by these
products.

>Banning words like "beef" and "meat" from the packaging sounds like something
that would actually engender confusion among consumers, by effectively banning
phrases like "meat free" from the packaging.

Oh come on, get real. This wouldn't be a problem if "PLANT-BASED" actually was
front and center on all of these products.

>This whole effort reads to me as a rather blatant example of rent seeking
behavior on the part of an incumbent industry in response to new entrants to
the market.

Well you're welcome to read whatever you want into it. I'd really like to see
you defend those beef crumbles though. What if those chicken strips are right
next to actual chicken strips? You don't think some consumer fresh off work or
wrangling a kid or what have you is going to grab them thinking they're actual
meat products? Of course they are.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Meat-
Burger-0-5/dp/B074YGZ77H](https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Meat-
Burger-0-5/dp/B074YGZ77H)

[2] [https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Beyond-Beef-
Crumbles-...](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Beyond-Beef-Crumbles-
Beefy-11-0-OZ/121312093)

[3] [https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Beast-
Burger/13728403...](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Beast-
Burger/137284038)

[4] [https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Chicken-Grilled-
Strip...](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Chicken-Grilled-
Strip/119191370)

~~~
bunderbunder
You're right. Some of those are pretty awful, and I hadn't seen them before.

That said, I'd still say those are cases that are much better handled by
lodging a false advertising complaint with the FTC. Dealing with that one
company using the existing legal and regulatory channels is fine, and they're
well-known enough that it would probably put anyone else who's thinking of
doing similar on notice.

Dealing with that by using them as an excuse to engage in crony capitalism in
order to pass an over-expansive law that is clearly designed to distort the
market is not OK. Crony capitalism in general is not OK.

------
jongold
Reminds me of The Butcher's Son in Berkeley - a completely vegan deli, with
menu items advertised as if they were meat. I eat meat but it's one of my
favorite spots in the Bay - along with the Impossible Burger finding it's way
into restaurants I'm excited for more amazing vegan options so we can wean
ourselves off meat.

[http://www.thebutchersveganson.com](http://www.thebutchersveganson.com)

------
scythe
"A stampede"

I get the cattle-based pun, but this is oversold. At the store I see a 200
foot display case with the large majority devoted to beef, pork and chicken
and the fake meat over to one side, past the lamb/veal/"etc", taking up no
more than 10% of the display case. Customers aren't stupid, and stores aren't
either. We want meat; they know how to sell it to us.

------
rdiddly
A stampede is singular, so a stampede of meatless products _overruns_ meat
cases.

Consider: Several eggs feel heavy. A box of eggs feels heavy.

Syntax error.

Edit after downvotes: English grammar is absolutely appropriate to talk about
in a forum of people who learn and use languages for a living, especially when
the offender is a publication of supposedly professional writers that
indicates said professionalism unequivocally by use of a paywall.

