

An appeal for unremarkable women - jgrahamc
http://www.jgc.org/blog/2010/03/appeal-to-unremarkable-women.html

======
davidw
I don't know... these debates seem to go round and round, and at the end of
the day, I grow weary of them. My resolve is to do what is in my power to help
out other people, be they men or women, who are interested in learning
something about programming and maybe need a leg up, and not to discriminate
or make the work environment uncomfortable in any other way. Beyond that,
though, I don't think I can do much more, and it doesn't seem a good use of my
time wondering what a very generic "we" can do to change the status quo.

~~~
timr
They don't tend to go "round and round", really -- what usually happens is
that someone posts something that points out the obvious inequality in our
industry, wonders what to do about it, and the top-rated response is from
someone who is "tired" of the conversation (because we've _clearly_ exhausted
all the options, naturally!)

At least we're consistent.

I have very little patience for people who are tired of the conversation that
we never seem to have. There are no women in this industry. It's unnatural,
it's stifling, and it's a problem. And I think it's a situation where the wolf
is guarding the hen-house -- the chickens keep disappearing, but nobody knows
why! Whatever could it be?

One thing I've noticed amongst my female friends is that while they might get
interviews, they tend to be _rejected_ at a much higher rate than equally
qualified male applicants. Given how _completely idiotic_ and machismo-driven
the interview process is at most tech companies, it wouldn't surprise me at
all to find out that this is an industry-wide phenomenon.

Do I know this is a problem? No. But like most other latent sources of bias,
we'll never know if we stick our heads in the sand every time the subject is
raised.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Perhaps you are simply younger and haven't been around as often. I am 50; I
have staffed-up multiple teams in the last 30 years; I have never managed to
get many female applicants much less hire them. I've solicited the local SWE
(Society of Women Engineers) chapter head; I don't even get a response. I've
contacted my sparse set of women colleagues from the past; never any interest
in changing jobs. Maybe its just me; but I to am tired of beating my head
against the wall.

~~~
luchak
If you can't hire any female engineers, part of the reason may be that you
don't already have any. This can be a huge red flag. Basically, most women
applying for the job want to have some assurance that they're going to be
respected and their concerns taken seriously, and the best way to demonstrate
that this is true is by having some women on your team. Otherwise, the
question just sits out there: why don't you have any? Is it coincidence, or is
there something wrong with your culture?

(Disclaimer: I'm a man, but I know a lot of female engineers. I obviously
can't speak for all of them, but I've noticed some trends.)

Many women in engineering are wary of situations in which they won't be taken
seriously.

For example: say there's one guy on your team who tends to patronize women,
especially ones he finds attractive. He might not realize he does this. You
have a female engineer who's getting fed up with this behavior, and tries to
gently (because she's experienced this before) point this out. He gets
defensive -- maybe he says she IS different than the other engineers, so it's
only natural, maybe he just gets angry, whatever -- but, whatever he does,
it's not an honest effort to improve. Later, she tries to bring this up with
someone else on the team, look for help, but to everyone else he's always been
a nice guy, so why is she making trouble?

Or let's say someone illustrates a presentation with some unfortunate images
or metaphors. (Where have we seen this before?) Nothing flagrantly
unconscionable, but, you know, kind of skirting the edge of acceptability.
This makes a female engineer uncomfortable -- the presentation marginalizes
her, makes her wonder if the team sees her as a colleague or an object of
desire. Now, she knows it's going to end badly, but she mentions that it made
her uncomfortable, and asks that everyone please try to avoid that mode of
presentation in the future. And suddenly everyone on the team is explaining,
no, he didn't mean in THAT way, the presentation wasn't REALLY about her --
well, if you hadn't marginalized her before, now you definitely have.

It doesn't have to be that way. But in some places, it is. I've talked to
women looking for software engineering jobs, and this is definitely something
that gets considered. Are other women willing to work there? Willing to stay?
Will they have anyone to back them up when shit happens? Because when the
answer is "no", life sucks.

That said, I don't know how you hire the first one. But you've got to be aware
of these things. You've got to make completely sure that you look like
someplace where women will be respected and taken seriously, not marginalized
and undermined. Because, if a good female candidate gets a whiff of that,
she's probably gone.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I can't "already have any" when I'm hiring a team from scratch. With that
logic, only women could hire women engineers for a new project. Is this the
case? Do women have an easier time of hiring other women?

~~~
luchak
I tried to address this in the last paragraph of my post, but it's a hard
problem, and not one I know how to solve. Some of it, undoubtedly, also comes
down to timing, location, and luck.

But you're right, I should have a better answer to this question. I should
discuss it with my friends sometime and try to get a handle on it.

~~~
luchak
From a recent email exchange with a female software engineer (heavily
paraphrased):

Get to know some female engineers, if you don't already. Not necessarily as
potential hires, but as professional contacts. At that point, they may decide
they're interested in the jobs you have, or they may know women who are. If
they refer female candidates to you, their implicit endorsement will help your
credibility. It will be very hard to hire female engineers if you don't know
any.

------
patrickgzill
My sister was just about the only woman in her engineering classes at Cornell.

She was hired in the 70s (and continued doing consulting through the 90s) by a
designer of nuclear reactors doing programming, since she could understand
both the engineering side (steam valves etc) and the programming side - she
helped program the nuclear reactor control room simulator using Fortran.

Yet now she is a professor at a well-known university. The hours are easier,
pay is as good or better, excellent benefits.

Given that, why beg women to join in something that doesn't pay as well and
expects you to slave away during weekends and holidays when there is a crunch?

(edited to add: I think part of it may be that men (speaking generally) are
more in love with the works of their hands, even if it doesn't benefit them
directly; they can have pride in it years later. I am not sure that women
necessarily have the same attitude towards material objects.)

~~~
Tichy
You mean women typically have the choice between becoming programmers and
professors at well-known universities? Or in general, they don't become
programmers because other jobs they opt for pay better?

"I am not sure that women necessarily have the same attitude towards material
objects"

I suspect 90% of offerings on Etsy.com are from women? Haven't looked it up,
but I am pretty sure it is a large fraction.

~~~
cpr
Perhaps more women than men have the (good) instinct that making concrete
things with your hands is better than making abstract things in your mind?

~~~
Tichy
Better in what way?

------
patio11
An anecdote, make of it what you will: There are more female systems engineers
at in my row of cubicles in Japan than there were in my university (WashU).
(And most of my female classmates at WashU were either Korean, Chinese, or
Taiwanese -- as in, by passport, not by ethnicity.)

~~~
CWuestefeld
One more data point:

The team I manage has 9 people, 5 of whom are female. This was purely chance,
I'd swear that no preference was given based on any particular demographics.

One thing that makes this difficult is that this year and each of the previous
two, I've been one developer short for a significant period due to maternity
leave.

Add to this the extended vacations (2-3 weeks) that developers who immigrated
(from China and India) take to visit family, and it becomes clear that having
a diverse team makes scheduling our work quite a challenge.

~~~
patio11
You apparently share something in common with my boss, and I share something
in common with your employees.

A conversation that I've wanted to have a few times with my boss: Boss, I
understand that you think me taking two weeks off at Christmas is difficult to
schedule. If I can direct you to the calendar, boss, you will see that
Christmas is clearly marked on it in red ink. You see, it happens at the same
time of year... every year. Sort of like, I don't know, Chinese New Year,
Divali, etc etc. As you might recall, I was gone last year, and the year
before, too, always at roughly the same time. You might remember that in those
years, too, I sent you emails six months and six weeks in advance. You might
also recall that, when you asked me if there was anything I wanted added to my
employment contract at our first meeting two and a half years ago, I said
"Yes, I want it explicitly understood that I return home for two weeks every
year at Christmas."

So now it is three days before my annual vacation, the one time per year that
I see my family, and you believe you have discovered an urgent problem in the
schedule... to whit, that you have scheduled a project such that it cannot
possibly be completed without my presence these next two weeks. Ah hah. Well,
best of luck with that. I'll see you in the New Year.

~~~
CWuestefeld
I think you very much misunderstand me. If I was someone who would ask them to
cancel their trip, then the scheduling would be easy.

I like to think that my staff thinks that this is a good place to work, and
that I'm somebody good to work for. I've never asked somebody to cancel a
vacation; the farthest I go is to make sure everyone is aware of when deadline
pressure is _going_ to occur, and let them make their own decisions about
their own priorities. I fully subscribe to the idea "work to live, not live to
work".

And darn it, that's hard for me to do. The real world doesn't observe
someone's wedding on the other side of the planet, so our customers still have
needs, as does the rest of our company.

I make sure my people get their lives, but it costs me headaches and I get
flack when I have to tell others in the company that something will take more
time than they think is reasonable.

~~~
patio11
_Are_ you my boss? I got gruff about taking off three days to go to my little
brother's wedding, too! The new Mrs. McKenzie is a wonderful young lady. She
started dating my brother after I arrived in Japan. I had met her once before
the wedding.

Please continue talking about how the real world is giving you flack for the
grave sacrifices you are making here. I'll be sympathetic.

~~~
CWuestefeld
OK, since this got voted up 7 times, it seems I'm being dense. Can somebody
shed some light on where I'm missing something?

On the one hand, an employee asks if it's OK to take 2 weeks to go to her
brother's wedding in India. I say "sure, no problem".

And on the other hand, I'm getting pressure from the CEO for some new
features, and obviously losing one of 9 developers for 2 weeks impacts that,
so I have to tell the CEO that's she's got to wait a little longer.

Where am I getting things wrong, or being self-righteous or something?

~~~
Tichy
I can only speak for myself, but I find it a little bit difficult to
understand your point. You might as well "complain" (I know you are not
complaining, just stating facts) that employees need 8 hours of sleep, so you
have to tell the CEO that they can't work 20 hours per day on the new feature.
Or that humans can't multitask and work on two projects at the same time
(imagine that, you could get twice as much work done with the same personnel).

Humans have needs, so you have to take them into account. So "it makes it
hard" sounds weird - it just is what it is, it is not being made hard. You are
not losing a developer for 2 weeks, you never had that developer for those two
weeks to begin with. Just as you don't have a developer who can work on two
projects at the same time.

Perhaps employing more people might be an option?

------
JoeAltmaier
My niece entered Iowa State and resided on an all-women floor of the
dormitory. A good mix of freshman majors, medical and engineering and so on.
By the time she graduated, she was the ONLY technical major left (biomed). All
the other women had switched to journalism or Phys Ed etc. Why?

------
gcv
Philip Greenspun wrote a good essay on the subject.

<http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science>

~~~
stcredzero
From Greenspun's article:

    
    
        Having been both a student and teacher at MIT, my 
        personal explanation for men going into science is the 
        following:
    
          - young men strive to achieve high status among their 
            peer group
          - men tend to lack perspective and are unable to step 
            back and ask the question "is this peer group worth 
            impressing?"
    

Though, I would say that the ability to impress a peer group is often strongly
correlated with the ability to attract mates. Hence, we have an evolutionary
weakness for wanting to impress our peers. Unfortunately, there are peer
groups whose impression is negatively correlated with attracting mates.

~~~
jgrahamc
Oh yeah. Totally. Being a science nerd at high school made me real popular
with my peers.

~~~
yummyfajitas
I think it's pretty clear that being a science nerd did make you popular with
your peers:

[http://www.jgc.org/blog/2010/01/how-i-got-50000-page-
views-b...](http://www.jgc.org/blog/2010/01/how-i-got-50000-page-views-by-
simply.html)

Greenspun's claim is that you probably overvalue this popularity, whereas
women disproportionately would not.

~~~
jgrahamc
But those people weren't my peers at the time.

------
toisanji
My cofounder is a female with a PhD in computer science.

