
Amazon driver arrested after taking GPS 'bait' package off Washington Co. porch - MagicPropmaker
https://kcby.com/news/local/amazon-delivery-driver-admits-to-taking-gps-bait-package-off-porch-in-washington-county
======
flexer2
I have delivered thousands of packages through the Amazon Flex program; I am
quite well-versed in their policies. There is no such incentive policy to
return undeliverable packages as he claims. If you are out making deliveries,
and you can’t deliver a package for whatever reason, you mark it as
undeliverable in the app and return it to the station after your route is
complete. That’s just part of the gig. It sucks because you might have to go
out of your way to bring back the packages to the station (using your own gas
and time), so the real incentive is to deliver the package, even if it’s
risky.

This guy is just a lying thief. There is no such program.

Edit: I should add that Amazon keeps track of your delivery metrics, including
the percent that are undelivered/late/reported missing (DNR, did not
receive)/etc. If you drop below some threshold you get kicked off the app. You
get a weekly email with a summary of your stats. I think I had a couple DNRs
out of the thousands of things I delivered, and was paranoid they were going
to kick me off for them.

~~~
chrissnell
Does Amazon still use OnTrac? I had countless delivery issues with OnTrac when
I lived in Tacoma, WA. I'm not even kidding when I say that 50% of the
packages never made it and another 20% made it many days after their online
status said that they were "delivered". It was truly the shittiest package
delivery system I've ever seen. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this guy
worked for OnTrac and that OnTrac did have some kind of incentive which
encouraged this.

I would have had more reliable delivery if Amazon simply gave the packages to
a meth head on a BMX bike.

~~~
llama052
OnTrac is the worst, in Palo Alto the Ontrac guys would drop off every single
package they had from Amazon at our Apartment Leasing office after they were
closed, so you'd often find 5+ packages sitting on the doorfront in the
evening, instead of delivering the packages to the apartment locations (which
are clearly labeled and very public)

Now in Oregon I ordered winter tires, Ontrac marked them delivered on the
delivery date but never actually dropped them off, later and they decided to
deliver 4 days later once I complained to the Shipper.

It's all anecdotal but the moment I see anything delivered by Ontrac I just
assume it has a 50/50 chance of being actually delivered.

~~~
irrational
During the past year, I’ve been getting a photograph on my front porch of the
package sitting there along with the delivery notification (I live in
Washington county Oregon). I assumed everyone was getting these notifications.

~~~
bonestamp2
I only get those photos when it was delivered by AMZL (Amazon's own delivery
service). I don't get photos when it's delivered by USPS, UPS, Fedex or
OnTrac.

------
patio11
It seems like HNers are quite willing to believe that Amazon factually has the
"We'll pay a non-employee contractor a bonus to move without authorization
onto private property to take a package they don't have any documentation for
and reintroduce it into our logistics system at some arbitrary point in the
future" policy.

This... is an unlikely policy for Amazon to have.

~~~
munk-a
It may be indeed, but the article gives no indication that this isn't a policy
Amazon has after giving a vague indication that it might be.

HNers are reading a news story as clearly as it was written.

(to contrast, the other option is that HNers would make logical assumptions
and making logical assumptions is quite illogical when it comes to how large
corporations interact with sub-contractors)

~~~
mikeash
However, the story is quite clear that this is a claim made by the accused
thief, and not independently verified in any way. When an accused criminal
gives a stupid-sounding justification for why he committed the crime, maybe
don’t believe him.

~~~
tempestn
I would argue that the author should have made some attempt to independently
verify the claim, or if unable to confirm or deny, at least include a line to
that effect.

------
gkoberger
"Deputies said that they found 18 other Amazon packages inside his vehicle.
They delivered the rest of the packages."

That was really awesome of them to do, especially around Christmas!

~~~
Steko
A telling contrast with the Mark Rober video and comments. Citizen has video
evidence of package being stolen ? Or in the case of the comments GPS of
offenders? Police dont give a fuck. Trillion dolllar company? _Yes sir Mr
Bezos, and we’ll deliver those extra packages for you on our time as well!_

YPDMV

~~~
netsharc
Seems like in this case the GPS trap is the police's, maybe they like it
better if it's their own idea.

In the dystopian near-future, Amazon will start offering police departments
these kinds of bait packages so they can reduce package theft...

~~~
geofft
The dystopian medium-term future is relocation incentives being paid by cities
to increase liquidity and therefore facilitate competition in the "better
place to live" market.

... I guess we already have those for corporations, so extending it to
individuals can't be much worse. But there's currently little meaningful
competition to shake out what small-scale policies are better (e.g., the
question of how much your police should care about package theft probably has
basically the same answer throughout all of American suburbia) and it'd be
interesting to see if people make the markets work efficiently (and leave
ghost towns in the wake of bad decisions).

------
univerio
> [...] he did it because Amazon has an incentive program that pays drivers $5
> for each undelivered package they return.

Not sure I understand the program and how it benefits Amazon in any way.

~~~
gkoberger
To avoid people thinking "meh, they aren't answering, I'm just gonna toss it
in the garbage". Since these are contractors driving their own cars, they
don't "return to Amazon" at the end of the day. So, basically, Amazon is just
compensating people for the drive back to the warehouse that they only have to
do if they have packages leftover.

(Remember that this article is quoting an arrested man; I think there's a good
chance what he's saying is a lie. He's probably just stealing packages.)

~~~
cissou
but in this case it doesn't make sense. I could understand returning the
packages HE was supposed to deliver, but picking up another package already
sitting on a porch sounds stupid: don't they have a way to check that this
package was never his to deliver?

~~~
gkoberger
I think we're reading too much into the words/actions of a petty criminal. I
imagine he's lying and was just stealing packages, or at the very least hadn't
thought things through properly.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Seems like a poorly designed incentive on Amazon's part is enough to establish
reasonable doubt. You get what you measure.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Seems like a poorly designed incentive on Amazon's part is enough to
> establish reasonable doubt.

Yes, but a mere claim by the accused that the policy exists with no supporting
evidence of the policy is not the same thing as “a poorly designed incentive
on Amazon's part”.

------
djsumdog
No prior records. ... This sucks. His ability to get work will be greatly
diminished because he thought he could game some poorly structured Amazon
system.

I mean, I know it's still his fault. Still, I wish people would take time to
think about these kinds of decisions though.

~~~
wowzap
I hope railroading this guy assures that none of my amazon packages are ever
stolen in this kind of scheme again. I don't feel bad for him whatsoever. Play
stupid games, win stupid prizes.

~~~
scrollaway
(Replying to the dead comment)

People are bloodthirsty because stealing packages is so much more personal
than, say, shoplifting. The mail is personal. The shit you get shipped is
personal. Especially around christmas. "Who the fuck steals the gift for my
nana?"

And it's like, people don't usually even know what they're stealing. There's a
damage&reward imbalance between the person who loses something of great
potential sentimental value (it's not always amazon packages, sometimes it's
stuff people send each other), just so that some petty thief has _a shot_ at
having something they care about / can make a profit on.

I'm with everyone else on this, fuck people who steal packages. Those and bike
thieves.

~~~
soneil
It seems sensible enough to me. If you steal $item from a shop, you're a
shoplifter. You stole it from an abstract corporation. If you take the same
$item from /my/ doorstep, you stole it from /me/.

I don't eat the losses, Amazon do. So technically you stole it from them. But
just as my insurance company eat the losses if you steal my car, I'm still
going to internalize it as "you stole my $item." And I can't help but judge
that much more harshly than shoplifting from some faceless name.

------
chihuahua
I've started having Amazon packages delivered to Amazon's package lockers. For
example, at 7-eleven stores and Safeway stores. I've also had Newegg packages
delivered to Walgreen stores. Bit of a hassle to go there for pickup, but
better than having expensive things stolen.

~~~
gruez
>Bit of a hassle to go there for pickup, but better than having expensive
things stolen

afaik you're not liable if that happens (Amazon will send another for free),
so why should you care?

~~~
SamReidHughes
Because some thief is getting away with it.

~~~
masonic
... and now associates your name and address with items of value to be had.

------
ahakki
> Johnson admitted to taking bait package, claiming he did it because Amazon
> has an incentive program that pays drivers $5 for each undelivered package
> they return.

Like paying for rat tails.

~~~
X6S1x6Okd1st
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect)

~~~
MrMorden
[http://windupstories.com/books/pump-six-and-other-
stories/th...](http://windupstories.com/books/pump-six-and-other-stories/the-
tamarisk-hunter/)

------
drivertoss
I used to drive for an Amazon contractor earlier this year and I can tell you
from experience that most package theft isn't coming from situations like
this, but instead packages that are actually a part of a driver's route

Usually each delivery contractor has a set delivery area because of this it's
extremely obvious when you're given a bait package because it's usually got an
address that's very much out of your way. Or the package will look really beat
up. Most of the time it's the former in these cases. Where I saw the most
theft happen was packages that had an address that couldn't be found, clearly
marked items (ex. toilet paper in a branded box), or a driver genuinely
misplaces a package inside the van so they mark it missing only to find it
later in the day. Now you might ask: why not just bring a package back if
there's a legitimate issue with it's delivery? You'll be marked down. So it's
easier in many cases to simply rip off the label and abandon it or take it for
yourself and hope you've been given something valuable.

Most of these guys are in rough situations, are under extreme pressure to
perform (200 + deliveries in a day), and often aren't given benefts or a
stable schedule. Turnover is extremely high, employee theft is absolutely
rampant, and frankly it seems like Amazon never cared so long as there was a
certain threshold of delivered packages for the day.

Sure when you are claiming multiple packages per week are on your manifest but
not present in your van things get suspicious, but of course all they do is
send you an extremely obvious bait package that you'll end up returning unless
you're just stupid. Many of these drivers aren't lasting more than a year and
almost all of them are gaming the system through the method I listed above so
there's no reprecussion for doing the wrong thing and in most cases doing the
right thing gets you a thank you coupled with a black mark on your record.
I've seen easily over 10k worth of theft in my first few months I really do
wonder how Amazon manages to stay in business.

------
lsh
> ... claiming he did it because Amazon has an incentive program that pays
> drivers $5 for each undelivered package they return.

and then

> "This behavior is unacceptable and does not reflect the high standards we
> have for delivery partners," Amazon

so you build a delivery system with incentives to _not_ deliver packages, then
fire those with the temerity to game the system.

~~~
rconti
I'm not even clear what the first line is saying. Packages undelivered by..
them? other drivers? How? If it's by another driver, how do they get it, and
how do they know it's not delivered? If it's their own package, wait, they're
literally paying drivers not to deliver my packages? What in the actual hell.

~~~
psetq
AFAICT (from googling), it's actually for returning undeliverable packages (no
access, etc), and it sounds like resorting to this regularly it will reflect
negatively on your job status.

------
tareqak
What would happen if I noticed a package not addressed to me on _my_ porch,
and I:

1) Took it inside?

2) Took it inside and called USPS/FedEx/UPS depending on the shipping label?

3) Took it into my car, and drove to a USPS/FedEx/UPS office depending on the
label?

To add, I appreciate that there are efforts behind solving this problem. I'm
living in an apartment, and I've had to deal with missing packages as well.
I'd personally rather have legitimate packages have trackers, and then return
or drop-off the tracker once I receive the package successfully. I understand
the price would be high given the scale of my ask.

~~~
function_seven
You live there. You're allowed to remove items from your own porch. I think
the scenarios would be:

1) Cops show up and and say, "Hey, that was a bait package. Can we get it
back?"

2) Same as 1), plus USPS/FedEx/UPS would be unable to locate the tracking
number.

3) Cops pull you over, thinking you're a porch pirate. You tell them where you
live, and they regret the error, and ask for their bait package back.

(But these scenarios probably wouldn't happen in the first place. I assume
that the chosen bait locations were done with the knowledge of the residents.)

~~~
xkcd-sucks
4) Cops arrest and charge you with theft over $10000 (the tracker is
overpriced), interfering with an investigation, and resisting arrest. You make
a deal and plead guilty to resisting arrest in exchange for having the other
charges dropped.

~~~
wavefunction
It could happen but is so unlikely as to be not worth considering.

~~~
Uberphallus
In the US everything is possible coming from a cop. Like being pulled over
because you're black, having your car searched because it "smells of
cannabis", and once nothing is found, they decide to seize $150,000 of your
cash through civil forfeiture because you didn't blink the turning light long
enough and one of the bills was a counterfeit $20. [0]

[0][https://theworldnews.net/us-news/celebrity-dj-says-
deputies-...](https://theworldnews.net/us-news/celebrity-dj-says-deputies-
ripped-off-his-money-after-seizing-it-on-bogus-drug-suspicion)

------
dawnerd
This happened a couple blocks from me. There's been a ton of packages going
missing around here. Luckily I live on a small off street that doesn't really
attract criminals.

Also should add, I've had pretty bad luck with amazons hired drivers actually
delivering packages on time or at all. When I lived in the city they'd often
call me up asking me to meet them down on the street since they couldn't
figure out how an apartment building worked.

~~~
nightfly
I'm off Millikan and Amazons direct couriers have been an order of magnitude
more reliable than my UPS driver (who doesn't follow my delivery preferences
and takes my stuff to random UPS stores that I have to pick it up from).

~~~
dawnerd
Thats good to hear. Fedex is the one here that is really unreliable. I work
from home and my office faces the street. I'll have the blinds open and the
driver will still try to sneak up and leave a delivery attempted note.

~~~
Kadin
So does anyone know why delivery drivers do that? Is there some sort of
perverse incentive to leaving a delivery note versus actually delivering the
package?

I can kinda get the incentive (saving time) on signature-required packages,
since it's faster to slap a label on the door than wait for someone to answer
and sign for the thing.

But why do they do it on non-signature packages? It makes no sense.

~~~
xaqfox
It may also be an attempt to hide a failure they made that would likely be
held against them if found out (e.g. if they forgot to load a pallet on to the
truck).

------
joefourier
Why is it standard practice in the US to leave undelivered packages on the
porch of people's homes? With the reports of stolen packages and Amazon having
to put dummy packages to catch thieves, as a non-American I'm struggling to
understand why they don't just put them back in the truck and let you arrange
a later delivery or pick-up at the closest parcel centre.

~~~
zbuttram
Being from the US, I'm actually surprised to learn it isn't the same
everywhere. How do people get their packages if they work during delivery time
every day? Does everyone just drive down to the shipping warehouse?

Also, I'm not sure how it works outside the US, but here frequently packages
with higher value items will require a signature and therefore wouldn't be
left on a porch.

~~~
wtmt
In India, people may prefer to get these delivered at work. For those who give
their home address but aren't available there, usually what happens is that
the delivery/courier person calls the recipient and figures out what to do
(come back later or hand it over to building security or leave it with a
neighbor, etc.). In some cases, the courier delivery person may not call, and
then the package may just go back to the sender, involving lengthy processes
to get it shipped back.

------
baoha
This happened to my friend last year, her security camera captured the whole
thing: driver dropped off the package, took a picture as proof of delivery,
then picked up the package. She didn't report to the police in fear of
retaliation.

~~~
__david__
Fear that the driver would retaliate?

I mean, if it's a driver I'd report it right to Amazon. They'd probably care
more than the police.

------
advisedwang
What does Amazon do with packages returned like this one was about to be?
Presumably delivery is re-tried or the user refunded... in which case stopping
this behaviour isn't actually preventing any thefts, just adding delays.

------
ElijahLynn
So we have some Amazon drivers stealing Amazon packages now? Seems like in 5
years this won't be an issue anymore, not sure how yet, but seems like it will
be solved.

------
InGodsName
Cobra effect seems to be brewing here.

~~~
KMag
As others have pointed out, the guy may be pretending to have misinterpreted
the way the program works in order to reduce his penalty. Other than his
statement, there's no indication that Amazon does pay drivers to return
packages never assigned to them. He may also have genuinely misinterpreted the
rule and been unlucky enough to get caught his first time trying to game the
system.

Even if their system has the flaw described by the theif, their package
tracking system would be pretty poorly designed if it can't be trivially
modified to prevent drivers from returning packages not assigned to them.

I imagine they also datamine non-delivery and missing package rates by
neighborooh, day-of-week, driver, and a few other factors and flag suspicious
drivers. This probably means having a given driver cover a patchwork of
different neighborhoods on on irregular schedule to reduce the effect of a
driver being unlucky enough to get assigned a high theft neighborhood on a
high theft day of the week.

If they find the package return rates are really too high, it's easy enough to
just pay all drivers to return to the warehouse at the end of their shift.
However, that probably costs significantly more and is inconvenient for
drivers.

------
gesman
Amazon giveth, Amazon taketh away...

------
patientplatypus
The law, in its infinite magnanimity, forbids the rich and poor alike from
stealing bread, sleeping under bridges, and loitering.

Considering the demographic of the people who read Hacker News I would be
willing to bet that most of you have never seriously considered having to
steal to get by.

~~~
donatj
Comparing stealing a package to stealing bread is silly.

------
sandworm101
Downvote if you want, but I have real sympathy for these crooks. This leaving
of valuables on our front porches is a new thing. If I were shopping at a
mall, and left my purchases on the roof of my car, I would not expect them to
remain there hours later. Theft is illegal but for centuries we at least made
it difficult. We didn't rely on the law as the only deterrent. Leaving
valuables on your front porch while you are at work is like walking out into a
crosswalk and just assuming that all the cars will stop for you.

Arrest the thieves. Punish them as the law deems necessary. But do not
demonize them. These glitter bombs and GPS devices are sad. These are non-
violent property crimes. Cops have far more important things to do than
protect your right to leave your new iPhone in public view all day.

Pay for proper delivery. Take the time to pick it up at a dropoff location.
Have it sent to a neighbor who is home during the day. That's far easier than
playing pathetic pranks on pathetic criminals.

~~~
ben174
Well stated point. I disagree with you but will certainly not downvote you.

~~~
sandworm101
I guess as a former attorney I see the slippery slope here, the history. Once
upon a time there was a guy who hung out on the NYC subway. He had nice cloths
and a fancy watch. He was the bait. With a revolver in his pocket he was also
the hunter. He found what he was looking for. These bait boxes are a step
towards that guy on the subway. They aren't exactly entrapment or vigilantism,
but nevertheless aren't ethical behavior.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shoo...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shooting)

~~~
mikeash
What makes it unethical? It seems like it would be nice to live in a world in
which thieves are constantly wondering if their latest acquisition is actually
bait that’s going to land them in jail.

