
Lost at Sea on the Brink of the Second World War - stass
http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/lost-at-sea-on-brink-second-world-war
======
NotSammyHagar
That's a great yarn. Makes me think about what the refugees coming to Europe
face.

------
cperciva
Do Americans really consider 1941 to be the _brink_ of WWII? I've always
considered that it started on September 3, 1939, with the first declaration of
war between major powers.

~~~
ianremsen
In my opinion, World War II started on September 18, 1931, when Japan invaded
Manchuria, because 1) the Chinese and Japanese didn't stop fighting until
1945, and 2) it had much the same spirit as the following conflicts.
Admittedly, this subjective timing stuff is awful fuzzy.

~~~
ptaipale
I agree with this idea; the view that invasion of Poland was start of this
global war is rather Euro-centric.

However, as you said it is fuzzy: the hostilities were still somewhat limited
even after the invasion in Manchuria; but total war broke out in July 1937
after the Marco Polo Bridge incident.

~~~
vacri
Japan's invasion of Manchuria triggered which web of military alliances to
fight against which web of military alliances?

~~~
ptaipale
Invasion of Manchuria was 1931; 1937 was invasion of mainland China until
Zhejiang and Hubei. In consequences, there was the alliance of Germany and
China fighting against the Soviet attack on Xinjiang, for instance.

It directly contributed to sanctions such as American embargo of Japanese
imports, and things like Export Control Act of 1940 and then the Tripartite
Pact.

(BTW, thanks for asking; this made me read more about history in the area - I
had no idea, for instance, that Soviet artillery and airplanes had attacked
Chinese Muslim nationalist (KMT) troops with mustard gas in 1934 in the Soviet
invasion of Xinjiang, nor that there were still White Russian troops that
operated on same side with NKVD and GPU troops. What a murky business.)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Xinjiang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Xinjiang)

~~~
vacri
Embargos aren't war, otherwise the West is at war with Russia right now due to
it's annexation of Crimea and activities in the Ukraine. And does it really
count as Germany at war with the Soviets if there were no German troops
involved?

Similarly, if you're counting political events that foment war as being part
of that war, then WWII started at least as far back as 1919, when Ferdinand
Foch stated that the WWI peace treaty "wasn't a peace, but an armstice for 20
years".

The thing is that Japan's military adventurism in China was a regional affair,
conducted between neighbours, whereas Germany attacking Poland brought in
countries from all inhabited continents except South America.

~~~
ptaipale
For me, Japan's large-scale military attack in China in 1937 was more than a
"political event".

It's not so clear-cut where policy ends and war starts, and when a war turns
into a global war, but I cannot say that September 1, 1939, would clearly be
where we draw the line. The fighting in China in 1937 (Battle of Shanghai) was
actually bigger in scope than the invasion of Poland in September 1939, and
with more casualties. Then the Winter War in Finland exceeded these, with big
losses for USSR, and then large-scale war started on the Western front in the
Battle of France in 1940 which was even bigger than Winter War in terms of
casualties.

