
Relearning to Type - feross
https://gryphon.dev/2019/10/04/relearning-to-type/
======
iod
I have begun the path to learning stenography. Steno involves chording, or
pressing multiple keys at once. Multiple keys at once means greatly improving
the information density of when you type allowing professionals to type 240
words per minute (realtime), which is just not possible on single-key-at-a-
time keyboards. Unfortunately most commonly available, non-gaming keyboards do
not natively support multiple keys at once which is also known as n-key
rollover (nkro). I ended up buying a pre-assembled, fully opensource hacker
keyboard Ergodox EZ⁰, and have a custom layout firmware that matches up with
the open steno project¹ . From here I am using Querty Steno² to practice my
chording. Here is an example video someone did of using steno for programming
a simple FizzBuzz on a different keyboard on YouTube³. In my opinion, if
anyone is looking to really take their typing to the next level, chording is
the only way and Dvorak/Colmak/single-key-at-a-time-layouts will never really
get you there.

⁰ [https://ergodox-ez.com](https://ergodox-ez.com)

¹ [http://www.openstenoproject.org](http://www.openstenoproject.org)

² [http://qwertysteno.com](http://qwertysteno.com)

³
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBBiri3CD6w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBBiri3CD6w)

~~~
melling
Do you take advantage of any predictive typing?

Coding, in particular, reuses a lot of keywords and variables names.

~~~
iod
Steno itself in the general sense is not predictive but rather phonetic. You
can create your own custom macros/variable-names/code-blocks to your
dictionary for things that are common in your workflow as you go. If you
already use some sort of predictive typing system such as sentence/phrase
autocomplete you could probably just assign a macro for accepting the
autocomplete suggestion.

------
scbrg
One thing I always miss when I see statistics such as "Your fingers on QWERTY
move 2.2x more than on Colemak," is an explanation of what _activity_ you're
presumably doing then. I'm _guessing_ the assumption is that you're writing
pages and pages of English text. As a programmer in a non English speaking
country I have _no idea_ how that translates to my use case. 50% of the stuff
I write is code. Sure, there's a bunch of English words in there, but I seldom
get further than three letters before I mash my Emacs binding for
autocomplete. When I write text, it's often internal emails that may not be in
English.

So, perhaps my fingers _don 't_ move 2.2x more when using QWERTY. Perhaps they
move _less_?! Maybe unlikely, but I really have no idea.

~~~
RealWittenstein
I think that the main advantage of using Colemak over QWERTY is to reduce pain
and effort.

~~~
Foober223
Could Colemak increase pain and effort in non-english languages?

~~~
melling
You could run what you type through an analyzer.

[http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-
analyzer/#/main](http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main)

------
ryukafalz
I haven't yet tried switching to Colemak or Dvorak, but when I started to get
real bad RSI I switched to a split ergonomic keyboard and it made a world of
difference. On top of that, it helped a lot to adjust the keymap so the keys I
need most often are comfortably reachable.

YMMV, different people have different conditions, etc.

~~~
RealWittenstein
Can you please share your keymap customizations?

~~~
ryukafalz
Current ergodox keymap is here: [https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-
ez/layouts/yov40/la...](https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-
ez/layouts/yov40/latest/0)

Most of my typing is in emacs, so having the ctrl/alt modifiers on the thumb
clusters was important for me; it lets me navigate easily without moving my
fingers much.

Redox layout (which is closer to stock) is here - this is for QMK
Configurator:
[https://github.com/jfrederickson/dotfiles/blob/master/keyboa...](https://github.com/jfrederickson/dotfiles/blob/master/keyboards/redox/default_387bd55.json)

Less customizations there, though I swapped ctrl/alt to match my ergodox
layout.

------
zZorgz
It's a misconception that layout switchers are relearning to type, especially
if they were proficient qwerty touch typists. The better typists in qwerty
have a significantly easier time learning a new keyboard layout. Most of the
typing skills positively transfer over, even though there's still an initial
hurdle.

Furthermore, I think there's significant bias when typists learn a new more
ergonomic layout. For example, they may have incidentally fixed their typing
posture when learning Colemak, they want to justify their investment, or they
overestimate the efficiency/comfort gains in respect to how much they need to
type daily. Performing frequent typing tests (something alternative layout
typists like to do!) is furthest away from reality for most people. Many
switchers also forget how to type in qwerty well; improving typing speed while
learning feels "really nice" and it's easy to wrongly associate this with
"qwerty is uncomfortable."

They also downplay the importance of living in a qwerty world, having to share
a computer with another, or being able to proficiently type in qwerty (which
many of them do not retain), or dealing with software not accounting for other
layouts.

I type in Colemak in Qwerty proficiently.

------
boomskats
I've been contemplating switching to Colemak for years but I'm ultimately
reluctant to because most of my day is is split between typing in English and
typing in a second language (for which I can only assume it wasn't optimised
for).

Does anyone know how the cited benefit analysis is done? Is there a github
project I can just feed a dictionary to to and get a 'benefit' score from?

Also, just to echo a couple of the other comments here - switching to an
ergonomic keyboard without row offsets (ie. something like an ergodox[1] or
planck[2]) is a huge, huge leap in ergonomics and comfort. Personally I feel
the discussion we should really be having is about moving away from the
pointless typewriter-hammer-collision-avoiding row offsets we're all forced to
suffer, and towards something that reflects the range of motion of our
fingers.

[1] [https://www.ergodox.io/](https://www.ergodox.io/) [2]
[https://olkb.com/planck](https://olkb.com/planck)

~~~
zamadatix
I ended up on carpalx after learning dvorak and colemak. It's a generated
layout like you are looking for and the code is available
[http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/](http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/). You should
be able to just swap the dictionaries with whatever you like and get a layout
"for you".

------
yodsanklai
I'm not convinced this is worth the effort. I assume that typing speed is
rarely an issue for touch typists. It is also not clear that different layouts
do help with RSI.

But the main issue for me is having to switch between layouts. Actually, it's
an issue I used to have living in France, where I occasionally had to switch
between my QWERTY layout and some AZERTY layout (for instance, to show
something to a colleague and friend). Even though I know both layout, there is
always some adaptation time.

Slightly unrelated, I noticed that what breaks my typing flow is to add/remove
pairs parenthesis/braces (which happens all the time when coding). I still
haven't found a good solution to this. I think that even Vim doesn't have a
good default solution for this. I wonder how efficient typers solve this
issue.

~~~
mplanchard
Vim-surround is a nice solution for this. It’s developed by the same developer
who wrote vim-fugitive. It is also available non the vim plugin for VSCode by
turning on a setting.

[https://github.com/tpope/vim-surround](https://github.com/tpope/vim-surround)

~~~
jsjohnst
> It’s developed by the same developer who wrote

... almost every useful Vim plugin. Tim Pope is a Vim plugin god.

------
clSTophEjUdRanu
Are there any actual studies that show that DVORAK or other layouts help with
RSI or that QWERTY causes or worsens RSI?

------
xenocyon
I touch-type, but unlike many tech folks, I'm a really bad typist and make a
huge amount of errors. Many of these errors concern symbols rather than
letters: - instead of =, or (a particularly frustrating one) <ENTER> instead
of '. Other errors are rooted in the physically row-staggered keys. Will
alternative keyboard maps like Dvorak or Colemak help with the kinds of issues
I'm facing, or are they orthogonal to my problems?

~~~
toyg
I too make a lot of errors. In my case they are mostly due to small hands that
have to travel quite a bit from the home row to hit special keys, and end up
getting “lost”. The move to Colemak didn’t particularly help my error rate
while programming; however, it did help the general case. Typing long blocks
of text is now an absolute pleasure, my hands hardly move at all.

If Apple give me the option, I think my next MBP will get a Colemak layout. My
external keyboard got a “hacked” version - it’s actually pretty sad that the
mechanical-keyboard scene does not really support anything but qwerty.

------
ledauphin
I did this a year and a half ago, but with an even more niche layout called
Norman. [https://normanlayout.info/](https://normanlayout.info/)

Its goal is to change as little as possible from QWERTY while getting as big a
benefit as possible. In particular I like how it preserves the locations of
many common keyboard shortcuts that are on lesser-used keys. It also retains
the same finger for most QWERTY keys, whereas Colemak changes more in ways
that don't feel really necessary to me.

It took me roughly 3 weeks to get back to feeling consistently productive,
though it was only the first week that was truly frustrating.

I don't think I'm a faster typer, but I am a lot more comfortable.

I also took the opportunity to switch to an ortholinear keyboard, which has
been great.

------
ahnberg
I believe the pain comes from having a "proper" qwerty finger setting, where
you have 8 of your fingers on asdf and hjkl. Then typing some combinations is
awkward.

I never got the hang of that style but rather evolved into some fluent version
where my fingers float around and sometimes I will use different fingers to
type the same latters based on what I previously typed.

This has allowed me to end up at a top speed of around 160wpm using normal
qwerty keyboard layouts.

I always felt that switching to a totally new layout crippled me when moving
around between customer servers, mobile devices and so forth.

But I totally get that others have had different experiences and I appreciate
that there are alternatives out there. I love choice.

Very interesting read!

------
tel
I’ve done Colemak and came back to Qwerty for two reasons that are really
compelling, I feel.

One, I program so I make lots of weird motions anyway. When writing long
prose, Colemak felt nicer but for coding typing it wasn’t a big change. In
both cases, I’m regularly typing symbols and making weird patterns.
Additionally, you usually are never reaching high speed during coding so your
hands often have time to rest.

Two, other people’s keyboards aren’t Colemak. Other people using your keyboard
is also a problem. For better or worse the non-standard choice tax is really
high with keyboards, especially if you experience difficulty with Qwerty after
making the switch.

------
pubby
I wouldn't recommend Colemak to programmers suffering from RSI. It favors the
right hand way too much. For writing English this is fine, but when you have
to type programming symbols and use Vi keys it really does a number to your
right hand.

Qwerty is inefficient as all get-out, but it's more balanced for programming
with how the most used letters are on the left hand.

~~~
melling
That’s not what this article claims:

[http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?colemak#colemak_detailed_stat...](http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?colemak#colemak_detailed_statistics)

“Colemak is more balanced in hand use, with a 6% preference for the right hand
(Dvorak has 14% for the right and QWERTY 15% for the left).“

~~~
ivanhoe
If I understand correctly these stats will depend on the text you type, so
each natural/programming language (especially programming language) will have
a different stats, right? Think typing python vs typing perl for instance...

------
Waterluvian
Has anyone become truly proficient with multiple layouts? Can you shed light
on what it's like to switch throughout your day or week?

~~~
yboris
I'm 'fluent' in QWERTY and DVORAK. Learned QWERTY when I was 13 years old,
learned DVORAK around college years. For DVORAK I used Stamina Typing Tutor -
[https://typingsoft.com/screenshots.htm](https://typingsoft.com/screenshots.htm)
It was frustrating at first, but within a few months I only made mistakes with
very rarely accessed characters.

Since then I've been able to switch between the layouts swiftly. At work I use
Dvorak on my external keyboard, but when I take the laptop with me I switch to
QWERTY. The switch is a mental flip akin to talking in another language (I'm
fluent in Russian and English).

I think the switch is very worth it. If I was re-doing it, I'd probably learn
Colemak instead of Dvorak (apparently it's a slightly better choice for some
reasons).

~~~
yboris
Just found my tweet from last year urging people to migrate away from QWERTY:
[https://twitter.com/whyboris/status/1036300736953544704](https://twitter.com/whyboris/status/1036300736953544704)

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new_realist
I suggest looking into the BEAKL layout.

~~~
yboris
Funky! Numbers are re-ordered `40123 76598`

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frou_dh
Filed under: Depths of Yakshaving

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jokab
Did u setup your fone to use colemak and how much hassle was it?

~~~
Zarel
Android's Google Keyboard comes with Colemak built-in. iOS requires a third-
party keyboard, unfortunately.

------
equalunique
I just want to say that Vim is easier with Dvorak than Colemak.

