
Do Not Debase Science: Don't Call On It To Settle Your Medieval Disputes - Richard Feynman - pierrefar
http://www.collectedthoughts.com/quote.aspx?id=11302
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DanielBMarkham
Nice story.

Not by any means to pick on the Jewish faith, but aren't Rabbis notorious for
detailed, obscure, nit-picking arguments that go on forever? Seems like I
remember stories of medieval rabbis getting into the oddest debates.

~~~
ars
Yes, that's true. There is a discussion in the talmud about the implications
(for Shabbat) of having a floating city (in the sky, not water).

Judaism is a very logically oriented religion. It's not obvious but every
single rules is very logically determined. Except for a specific list that is
termed "rules from Sinai". (I don't remember the exact count of how many
things are termed so.) Those are like the 'axioms' everything else follows
logically from there.

It is said that by starting with those rules, the text of the torah, and
nothing else, you can regenerate the entire set of laws.

~~~
stcredzero
There is a prohibition on floating cities? So adherents cannot live on
"seasteads?" Can they work on oil rigs? What about Geoffrey Landis' proposal
to colonize the upper atmosphere of Venus by building aerostat habitats there?
What about ocean liners with shopping malls and ferris wheels in them?

~~~
ars
>There is a prohibition on floating cities?

What? Hu? Where in the world did I say that? Or even anything close? I said
the "implications".

Just so it's clear: there is no prohibition for floating cities.

The issues discussed were pretty technical, but had to do with public vs.
private land on the city.

------
Maro
This is a long excerpt from Surely You're Joking. Is this even legal?

~~~
helveticaman
I get the feeling Feynman would have licensed it with Creative Commons, given
the chance.

------
time_management
The problem with organized religion of all kinds is that it tends to obsess
over a concept of eternal and immutable truth, rather than accepting the
possibility (and likelihood) of a multitude of paths to truth and liberation.
This leads to a sort of legalism that detracts from the original purpose of
the religion.

The original purpose of Shabbat in Judaism and Christianity is to devote one
day out of seven to meditation and prayer, as well as to simulate the sinless
state, in which there was no need for work, that existed before the Fall.
There's nothing special about Saturday (or Sunday) as opposed to any other
day, aside from the desire to have all observers recognize it on the same day.
Before the modern era, the most common distraction from the meditative life
was work, and hence the activities that are prohibited are those that were
considered part of the "work" sphere in biblical times.

Organized religion tends to calcify, leading to strict rules that allow no
exceptions. Hence, the question asked is not, "Will using electricity distract
from the meditative purpose of Shabbat?" but "Does electricity 'count' as a
fire?" Of course, one can't single out Judaism here, because significant
components of all the major religions devolve into the same debates.

~~~
ars
a: There is no "meditative purpose of Shabbat".

b: The rule was never: forbid things that are work. Work is a poor translation
of the hebrew concept. Things that are forbidden are things that create
things, or modify them. Like burning something, or building. The idea is to
emulate God - God stopped creating the world on the 7th day, so we too should
not create things on the 7th day. What counts as creating for God and for us
are different, but the idea is the same.

c: There is something special about the particular 7th day: it's the same day
that was seventh after creation. The weeks have been counted continuously for
a good many thousands of years.

So to ask '"Will using electricity distract from the meditative purpose of
Shabbat?" instead of "Does electricity 'count' as a fire?"' completely misses
the point of Shabbat.

You think you are catching the point, but instead you missed it.

And BTW the answer to the question is: yes it counts as fire because using
electricity causes a fire in the power plant to be increased. But the
electricity itself is not fire.

~~~
noonespecial
Actual questions asked a a building site my dad was at in Israel.

1) Is a regenerative break in an elevator doing work, even if the power is not
fed back into the grid? Accepted answer: No, as long as its not fed back, but
wasted as heat instead in a large resistor. Solution : A special system was
constructed to divert the regenerative power into a large nickel-chromium
element and not fed back into the grid for just that day. This heat was vented
outside so that it wouldn't accidentally do work by heating the building in
winter.

2) Does energy created in the power plant (from burning coal) count if its
stored in a battery and then removed during Shabbat? Answer: No, as long as
the fire part happened some other day. Solution: Large batteries were
installed with inverters to feed critical systems during this day and were
only charged during the week.

Of course, as mentioned, non Jews were hired to press buttons, open doors, and
perform other actions during this time as well. The moral of the story is that
it cost a lot more, and takes a lot longer to build a building like this!

I believe in God, and I don't want to disparage any man's religion but I think
personally that God is not overly impressed by storing the energy in a battery
so we can use it guilt free on the holy day...

~~~
ars
First: Not all jews would agree with those answers as being OK.

Second: you need to understand that the main thing going on here is that non
jews (who do not need to keep shabbos) are pressing the buttons, etc.

And normally that would be enough - no need for batteries and resistors.

But it's in israel, and in israel non-observant jews run the power plants, so
what happens is that by going in the elevator the jew is causing another jew
(in the power plant) to violate the shabbos, and that's a huge problem. (I
suppose it's actually the non-jew who is causing it. That's not a problem for
the non-jew, but a jew should not use an elevator knowing it's going to cause
someone to violate the shabbos.)

That's why they added all the batteries and stuff, and that's also why it's
not simply a joke. The "loophole" if you will is the non-jew pressing the
buttons, and that's fine. Non-jews are not required to keep shabbos, and you'd
be all set. But the jew must not cause another jew to violate the shabbos,
hence disconnecting from the grid.

You might ask: what about lights and stuff that are left on? And indeed there
are those who run on batteries all shabbos. But the majority say that the jew
is not doing any action by leaving the light on, and it's only actions that
are a problem. For example: everyone agrees that it's ok to leave a fire
running on shabbos, as long as you don't make it larger or smaller, same with
the lights.

~~~
noonespecial
Interesting. Complicated issue indeed. I'd have guessed exactly the opposite
about the lights. The light being on incrementally and continuously requires
more fuel for the fire. The longer its on, the "bigger" the fire.

Does this mean that by inaction, its ok cause work to be done, even if by
reasonable action, one could have prevented it?

Could the elevators simply move by themselves, stopping at every floor. Would
it be permitted to ride them since they were simply "left on" and you wouldn't
have to press any buttons, and they would have made the trip anyway?

~~~
sethg
The restrictions of Shabbat apply to Jews, not utensils owned by Jews;
therefore, generally speaking, it's OK to set things up before Shabbat so that
things will happen without any intervention. The most common example of this
is setting a mechanical timer or an X10 system to turn lights on and off. And
one common form of the "Shabbat elevator" is, indeed, to set up the elevator
so that it will automatically stop at every floor.

(This is all according to the traditions recognized as authoritative by
Orthodox Jews. The Kera'ites, a dissident sect going back at least to medieval
times, interprets the Bible differently; they think you're not just allowed to
_ignite_ a fire on Shabbat, you're also not allowed to _leave a fire burning_
over Shabbat. If you're a Kera'ite you should probably not live any place
where there are cold winters.)

