
The Zephyr premium economy airline seat - nikhizzle
https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/private-lie-flat-seats-for-every-economy-passenger.html
======
ximeng
This appears to be a concept design by an industrial designer. It's a pitch to
airliners.

[https://vimeo.com/394558118](https://vimeo.com/394558118) shows (from 00:33)
how it works in more detail. Ladder pulls out from between the seats (although
see [http://www.zephyrseat.com/wp-
content/uploads/2020/02/Zephyr-...](http://www.zephyrseat.com/wp-
content/uploads/2020/02/Zephyr-Product-Architecture.png) for newer built-in
ladder design), and arm rest holds upper chair passengers in place. The
cushion that completes the bed appears to fold out from just below tray table.

Luggage goes to upper right of seat, so is securely stored and accessible
during flight, a win versus traditional overhead lockers. Seat appears to be a
little lower than normal. It looks like there is some additional storage space
to the right of the footwell.

Main issues I see are slightly awkward banana shaped sleeping position, and
the safety issue for evacuating top deck. The updated built-in ladder design
might be sufficient for able-bodied passengers to evacuate quickly enough.

This would be much more attractive than existing premium economy to me and
would compete well with business. The main differentiator of business that
interests me is the lie-flat bed; the enhanced service and food / beverages,
lounge access, and priority boarding and luggage delivery is less important.

More details at [http://www.zephyrseat.com/](http://www.zephyrseat.com/), a
few additional videos here
[http://www.zephyrseat.com/about/](http://www.zephyrseat.com/about/) and
further pictures here
[http://www.zephyrseat.com/work/](http://www.zephyrseat.com/work/)

An alternative flat bed in a premium economy cabin with half the density is
described here [https://thepointsguy.com/news/new-design-premium-economy-
fla...](https://thepointsguy.com/news/new-design-premium-economy-flat-bed/)

~~~
TheRealPomax
Just evacuating the top deck? Because the moment a single ladder is in the
aisle, no one can move anymore, so it's really a matter of "even having a
single one is going to fail FAA regulation".

~~~
ximeng
Check the updated design for the built-in ladders - not saying it definitely
will work, but it might be possible

------
vanniv
The headline here is quite misleading. This seat is intended to compete with
premium economy seats, not with economy.

These seats produce the same cabin density at today's premium economy, while
trying to offer a business-class-lite experience.

Airlines might buy these, because if they can differentiate premium economy a
bit more from regular economy, they might be able to sell more of it.

Most airlines are installing only 25-30 seats in their premium economy
classes, even on big birds like 777-300. If this makes the class more
appealing, they may be able to install 40 seats or more instead.

The fact that they are stacked, and that they don't lie flat, will keep them
sufficiently distinct from true business class not to cannibalize business
class sales.

But, these seats won't leave room for overhead lockers. The seats have an
amount of small-item storage that will feel extremely generous in Premium
Economy, but without the lockers, there's no storage for bigger bags.

This is also not an unsolvable problem, but airlines are exceptionally risk-
averse and change-averse, so it'll take some real convincing.

And then there's the accessibility and safety issues with the ladders to
resolve and the question of how people will feel about the low ceiling
clearance (will it feel premium? especially to people who aren't regular
travelers)

I do hope some airline tries it. There is a ton of room to make air travel
different, but airlines are all very fearful, staid entities. For the most
part, airlines consider themselves bold if they buy the same Recaro seat as
every other airline, but in unique color or fabric combination.

~~~
sytelus
The issue is that airlines would simply modify this design to increase
passenger density instead of offering the same density but with more space.
The solution to ever-shrinking space in the airplane, however, is economic,
not technical. Imagine if you could select a 1X-3X room in increments of 0.5X
with proportional pricing when you buy a ticket. Airline does not lose money
and customers get what they can afford. Right now we only have 1X, 1.15X and
3X options which unfortunately neither sufficient to fit the curve or even
have same distribution or pricing.

~~~
crooked-v
Well, and it's basically impossible to comparison shop flights with seat space
or comfort as a filtering element. Right now the only really usable criteria
are price and number of free bags.

~~~
sytelus
This. Comparison shopping for airplane tickets is what killed flight comfort.

------
entee
I can’t imagine that with stacked seating and ladders that come out and block
the aisle that you could evacuate a plane in 90 seconds or less. That’s the
standard for the FAA:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/fir...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/first-
of-their-kind-tests-are-aimed-at-setting-new-standards-for-airplane-
seats/2019/11/28/55bcdd3a-0ae4-11ea-97ac-a7ccc8dd1ebc_story.html)

~~~
jaynetics
Another safety issue seems to be that people would always have to wear a
seatbelt in the upper row, otherwise unexpected turbulence could lead to falls
and bad injuries.

~~~
alkonaut
Turbulence that bad would be the kind that causes injuries in normal seats too
(by banging heads in the celing for example). Its more common and dangerous
than people think and that's why we are instructed to always wear the seatbelt
when seated. Cabin staff couldn't really give more than that advice to people
in top seats, but perhaps people would believe that warning in this case
because they can see the danger.

------
remarkEon
FTA:

>Will Airlines Buy It?

>Mr. O’Neill says that because the seats are stacked, airlines will not
forfeit capacity. The same number of seats in today’s wide-body cabins can be
accommodated using Zephyr, so it should not impact an airline’s bottom line.
Mr. O’Neill explained, “The best part of this seat: it has NO heavy
mechanical/electronic components. The entire seat has only 2 moving pieces
inside, so the weight and direct maintenance costs for the airline are
significantly reduced! Using advanced composite materials, we can build this
seat at less than 50kg per unit.”

This doesn't really answer the question though, right? The real question is if
airlines would be willing to invest in the R&D to have stacked seating at all.
Personally I'd be fine with it, but I can see a lot of people having problems
with it - to say nothing of how expensive it would be to redesign the cabin.

~~~
whoisjuan
I see airlines buying this, but not to redesign their economy cabin layout,
but instead to increase the capacity of their premium cabin.

This would never be used in an economy cabin. The whole point of economy is
that at times is so uncomfortable that you have moments where you consider
upgrading. If they change this to improve economy, people wouldn’t have a
reason for upgrading to an upper cabin.

~~~
klyrs
These seats appear to replace overhead storage. Say goodbye to your free
carryon... a plane full of upcharges can outstrip the handful of people who
can afford upgrades.

Of course, if you're 7' tall, I'm betting you can't fit at all. If you're
north of 300lb, or 70yo, or have physical disabilities, you might not be able
to clamber into the upper seats. I don't think that will impede the airlines
though.

~~~
derefr
If you’re 7’ tall, you can’t really fit into existing economy seats, either,
because your knees would need to transect the seat in front of you. At least
in this configuration, you can slouch.

------
jjeaff
Is this actually going to happen or just a proposal? I can't imagine this is
going to pass safety standards. You can't even have your bag sticking out in
the aisle or a less than able bodied person sitting in the exit row.

Imagine 20 ladders jutting out into the row as passenger frantically exit an
aircraft in an emergency.

~~~
DarthGhandi
Find it utterly bizarre the dozens of comments here about a designer who
obviously put a lot of effort in didn't consider the very basics and HN
commentators are so enlightened/knowledgeable they can point it out in 15
seconds.

How about this counterpoint: the manufacturer knows exactly about the
emergency requirements of an airplane and that's included in the design. An
average size male need to half turn sideways going down an economy aisle
already.

When not in use these aisles would be a joy due to the buffer space, for both
those in transit and those sitting.

The rampant Dunning-Kruger that exists on this forum is honestly quite
concerning some days. Take a step back and think whether this company has not
dealt with this problem? The onus of proof is on all the commentators saying
otherwise.

~~~
jjeaff
I was merely asking. But it is not uncommon at all to see marketing drawings
like this that have not and have no intention of becoming a reality and so do
not go through any kind of safety vetting process.

In other words, in my case, it's not a matter of thinking I know better than
some experts. It's that I question whether this has been vetted by any experts
at all. It would not be the first time.

------
sombremesa
I can see myself (to say nothing of the elderly) falling off the stairs on
long haul journeys after waking up and needing to go to the bathroom. I can
see endless instances of people spilling their hot drinks and food on the
stewardess as it's being handed to them. This seems like a downgrade from
economy, where at least you can comfortably walk down the aisle and not get
inadvertently kicked in the head.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Reminds me of a hard sleeper bunk on an overnight train. Actually, much better
than that considering you can still sit if you want.

------
CamelCaseName
I feel like this is missing something very important -- weight distribution.

Premium economy in my limited experience has been closer to the front. Even if
you shift it towards the center, you suddenly have a section of the plane
that's far heavier than the rest. (Not to mention higher)

The article was really quite brief, but I'd love to learn how that issue would
be addressed.

~~~
notahacker
The claimed weight is 50kg per unit - more than a modern aircraft seat but not
dramatically so to the extent it's likely to unbalance anything - and they
seat the same number of passengers per metre of cabin. The bigger question is
how on earth they expect to get an airline safety certification for something
involving passengers sitting high above the cabin floor and accessing the
aisle by sliding out ladder in the middle of it

~~~
caymanjim
Trains have bunks and ladders and move around a whole lot more violently than
planes.

~~~
dev_tty01
Sorry, I have to disagree here. Trains do not make multi-meter sudden vertical
movements.

At any rate, the concern is about egress in an emergency. In a train, every
window is an emergency exit. In a plane everyone has to go down the aisle to
the nearest exit. The ladders are in the aisle during use and will inhibit
that process. They could of course disable the ladders during an emergency so
people would have to jump or climb down, but that would certainly lead to
injuries and other mishaps that would also inhibit the escape process.

Hard to see the FAA certifying this unless the aisles are made wider. That
would reduce overall packing density, so there goes airline's interest in the
approach.

It is beautiful in concept. Who wouldn't want to get horizontal during that
redeye back to the east coast or the long haul to Japan? Its just hard to see
the profitable and safe path to adoption.

------
simonebrunozzi
It looks a terrible design to me. I'd rather go for minimal changes to economy
seats to improve the "low hanging fruit" problems that humans have when
traveling.

An example? Staggered seats to avoid "elbowing" or "shouldering" \- common
problem in the US where people are "bigger" than elsewhere, compared to e.g.
Asia.

Who am I? A CS engineer with ~1,000 flights in the last 12 years, ~97% in
economy, all over the world except Antartica. My comment here is simply based
on some common sense. No specific skillset.

~~~
Trias11
"elbowing" or "shouldering" could be eliminated by small vertical separators.
These doesn't need to be big - just something separating elbow space and
shoulder space to prevent spilling one passenger's body over to another's
space.

------
Scene_Cast2
This got announced in tandem with a bunk bed design - see Air New Zealand's
skynest. You get more comfy bunk beds, but can't really sit. Would be good for
overnight long hauls, I think.

~~~
nikhizzle
The skynest is being proposed as an additional service you can book (not sure
if it will be paid or free). So you will have your normal seat, and then get a
certain number of hours in the skynest.

------
brenden2
Interesting, but airlines aren't going to invest in upgrading their planes
unless they can raise prices (and get more money). Thus, the best case
scenario is that this becomes the new business class or something. The success
of low-cost carriers like Spirit have shown that people prefer cheap tickets
over better service or more comfort.

Maybe they'll take it to an extreme and start stacking the current seats
without increasing the amount of personal space.

~~~
soared
Correct - the article lists these as premium economy. It may make sense for an
airline to replace 15% of sets with these and charge more. I would certainly
pay another $100 for one of these on a 12+ hour flight (as would my employer).

~~~
GordonS
Premium economy is not typically another $100 - it's generally 2-4x the cost
of economy.

~~~
axaxs
My biggest "problem" with premium economy is simply that it's always full. My
flights are always a week out or less, and every single time it's completely
full, leaving me with some near lav middle seat. It's like I want to give them
money, but can't.

~~~
GordonS
I don't fly regularly any more, but I did for several years (mostly long
haul), and I found the same thing - even if economy was only half-full,
premium economy was almost always full.

A side effect also meant it was almost impossible to use airline points to
upgrade from economy, since the number of "reward" seats is very limited
anyway, and always seems to be "zero" on popular routes.

At the time, I always wished they would increase their premium capacity at the
expense of losing some economy seats, which I figured would have reduced the
cost of premium economy a bit too.

~~~
axaxs
Same thought I had. It's crazy to me they aren't expanding premium economy row
by row til it's not filling up. It's often nearly double the cost, but doesn't
nearly take up double the room. I think they'll actually find they can expand
to infinity, as consumers are willing to pay money to not suffer.

------
ben1040
In a worst case scenario event, I’m not sure I want to have to evacuate from a
smoke filled cabin and have a ladder involved in the process. Seems like a
risk for falls/breaks/sprains if you’re trying to peace out of the plane
quickly.

~~~
sushid
I'd take that chance any day for a much more comfortable flight. Very rarely
do you even have the chance to escape when something is wrong with your plane
while it's in the air.

------
Simulacra
There are clear disability concerns here.

~~~
gruez
Why would there be if you're on the bottom level?

------
gshdg
If this gets adopted, I give it <10 years before someone has the bright idea
to return seat size to current values while doubling capacity by adding the
second story.

------
eternalny1
If this doesn't require widening the aisle, then a ladder in it is in foul of
thousands of airline safety regulations.

If they need widen the aisle, there goes the cost savings for seat capacity,
or narrower seats.

------
dannyw
Pretty much all the margins of a flight come from business class. If you fly
economy class, your value to <Airline> comes from walking past business class
and maybe being upsold.

~~~
gamblor956
This is no longer true, as many companies have downgraded employee travel to
premium or basic economy.

Many airlines don't even have a business section anymore, and the business
fare just confers an earlier boarding priority.

~~~
flyinglizard
You won’t find any major international carrier without a proper business
class. Business is so good that it essentially killed first class on all but
few routes. Ticket prices reflects this, with business class around 5x the
cost of economy and premium economy splits them in the middle.

~~~
mlthoughts2018
Most international flight businesses class experiences are just economy class
with very slightly more legroom, earlier boarding, guaranteed use of overhead
bins to avoid gate checking bags, and sometimes a really low-quality free
alcoholic drink.

5 or 6 years ago it was different and business class had a separate section
with much roomier seats with more storage, upgraded entertainment, meals and
alcohol options, and for large enough flights sometimes even a separate
entrance.

You are right that ticket prices can be 5x economy (probably more like 2x or
3x usually, 5x on crowded flights). But these higher prices are only for the
“slightly more legroom and early bin access” tier. The quality has gone down
while the prices keep shooting up.

I’ve also noticed that when I paid for business class flights before, if any
delays or issues came up for the flight, I would get comprehensive and
immediate customer assistance to rectify it, usually even free transfers to
more expensive flights or very generous hotel and meal vouchers, no questions
asked.

In the last two years I’ve had several issues with flight cancellations or
delays and business class fares confer no advantage. No customer support, no
free upgrades or transfers, and you have to set your dignity aside and act
like a crazy angry person if you want even the smallest concession from the
airline on hotel or meal vouchers - and this has been consistent across every
major international airline.

~~~
youngtaff
Don’t know which airline you've been flying but business class on most of the
planes I've been flying is a lie flat bed

------
aaron695
Has there ever been a newspaper article "New seat design" that has actually
ended up with a new seat design in production?

If there a list of these weekly stories?

Out their idea, anyone can design seats including aircraft manufactures, so if
it works they will just do it themselves, except they know what regulations to
follow and what passengers will actually want.

Same with the monthly better boarding stories.

------
olliej
How can this possibly work with the (immensely sensible) FAA complete
evacuation time rules? It’s already challenging to get people evacuated in a
sensible amount of time without people having to use ladders. The ladders make
leaving the seat harder as it is, and then you have people going against the
evacuation flow (they’re blocking the aisles while they climb down).

------
Retric
Any numbers on how this impacts evacuation in an emergency?

------
gok
Realistically—if this ever gets approved by regulators—airlines will just sell
this as business class.

------
fortran77
One thing that would really help is to charge oversized passengers more than
right-sized passengers, and have separate seating areas. One of the most
uncomfortable things about flying coach is having to sit next to an oversized
person.

------
earthboundkid
Deregulation was a mistake. It turns out that flight paths are a scarce
resource, and race to the bottom results in planes that are miserable to fly
in. Reregulate the prices, add a carbon tax, and bring back in flight meals.

~~~
refurb
If by “race to the bottom” you mean making flying more affordable for
everyone, then I agree.

Tickets are a fraction of what they were in the 70’s due to deregulation. And
in terms of comfort, based on how full flights are, it seem like airlines have
struck the right comfort versus price balance.

~~~
caymanjim
If by "balance" you mean that they found the maximum amount of pain they can
inflict before mob violence breaks out.

~~~
dodobirdlord
Lower prices and less space per person means more people get to fly. And it's
not like air travel is a high-profit industry. Regulating airlines to force
them to raise prices and provide more space per customer is obviously evil by
any sensible definition. I'm not even some sort of free-market zealot. Forcing
an important product to become more exclusionary via regulation to improve the
quality for non-marginal users is bad policy and also morally wrong. Raising
airfare means that people on the margin are not going to be able to travel to
see their dying relatives, visit family on holidays, travel for vacation, etc.

~~~
earthboundkid
Or maybe people won't move as far from their relatives in the first place. You
can't just assume that more flying is better. Flying has complicated effects
on society. It also has an effect on the environment, and the evidence there
is overwhelming that it is a negative effect.

------
dawnerd
Hard pass. Just looks way more uncomfortable for everyone.

Way better solution is what’s already being rolled out, optional bunk beds
below deck.

------
speedgoose
This is seems like a good idea but it's way too dangerous.

~~~
karles
It's all fun and games until someone spills their hot coffee from the upper
level.

~~~
bengerbil
Coffee? That's not so bad. I'd be worried about it raining vomit. Its already
bad enough when fluids start flowing along the floor, hitting the coats and
smaller bags stowed below seats.

------
ThePowerOfFuet
Is there a link which doesn't use a cookie wall?

------
anon4lol
LOL.

Twice the passengers; same number of restrooms.

I wonder if the extra airline profits will cover the possible payout of a
lawsuit where a mother's lap baby twists out of her arms and plonks six feet
down onto the hard aluminum floor.

I can't wait for the first flyertalk post asking how many air miles they
should get as compensation for being urinated on by a passenger overhead, or
dealing with a gassy passenger overhead.

Too funny.

~~~
alkonaut
It’s not twice the number of passengers it’s the _same_ amount of passengers
as today’s premium economy?

Is the article really that cryptic?

------
GordonS
This doesn't look like an improvement - I'd feel even more closed in with this
configuration.

If you're in a bottom seat, you've got someone's, well, bottom, right in your
face - not a very appealing prospect.

They also don't recline, which will make sleeping impossible or very difficult
on long haul flights.

I also wonder about this from a safety perspective in the even of an
evacuation - I imagine you'd have panicked passengers in the top seats jumping
down onto those below.

And finally, even if these seats have a bigger pitch (more leg room) as a
concept, airlines will simply cram more in, while keeping the same, horrible
pitch of 30-32". That's not a problem with any particular design, of course,
but it's what any airline is unfortunately going to do.

~~~
tzs
> They also don't recline, which will make sleeping impossible or very
> difficult on long haul flights

None of the static images show it, but at the end of the video it shows that
there is space on the window side so that you can actually lie down across you
seat with your legs going into that space.

~~~
GordonS
Ah, OK, I hadn't watched the video - then it might actually be a real
improvement.

