
Paternoster Lifts: Cyclic Chain Elevators with No Buttons, Doors or Stops (2016) - mhb
https://99percentinvisible.org/article/paternoster-lifts-cyclic-chain-elevators-no-buttons-doors-stops/
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abricot
I work in a building with one. It takes 15.5 seconds between floors, wich is a
bit slower than our elevators, but because there is no door, buttons and
usually no queue it really is very quick.

In the course of the day it makes moving between adjacent floors for meetings
completely effortless.

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discoursism
Unless you are disabled, moving between adjacent floors is pretty easy with
stairs. And lots of types of disabilities that would prevent the use of stairs
would seem to make these risky or impossible to ride. All in all, I'm pretty
happy these never caught on.

~~~
abricot
Add 15.5s per floor, no perspiration, bring a cup of coffee.

Sure, if you love stairs by all means take them. But no, it's just not
convenient on the same level.

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icebraining
Previous discussions on the Paternoster:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9284672](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9284672)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10058885](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10058885)

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sannee
Three of these were scheduled to be replaced several years ago at my
university - the administration however pulled the "voluntarily call the
historical conservationists" trick and they are still operational.

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mannschott
We had a pair of Paternoster in my place of work (in addition to two pairs of
elevators) until a year ago. They've since been replaced by a small pair of
elevators, which work fine, but the paternoster just had more character. Power
usage was given as the reason for replacing them.

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rtkwe
That and they're super unfriendly to anyone with a movement disability.

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johnday
Is that relevant though if you have lifts too?

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jadell
How easily these can be used by people with disabilities? Someone in a
wheelchair or on crutches who can't move fast enough would be frustrated or,
at worst, seriously injured by one of these.

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jjuhl
Why is that relevant? Of course they cannot safely be used by such people -
they'll just have to use something else - like stairs or regular elevators.

~~~
mikeash
Why is that not relevant? Accommodation for disabilities is an important
purpose of most elevators, and it's a reasonable question to ask.

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Odenwaelder
There are 3 places left in Germany where they're allowed to operate. One of
those places is Leica in Wetzlar. It's absolutely fun to ride it, much faster
than conventional lifts, but it's understandable that they're being shut down
for safety reasons.

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kuschku
Really, only 3? Because there’s two alone in Kiel (old city hall and the
Landtag)

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Odenwaelder
Then this information might be wrong, I only heard it from some employees.

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hobofan
Yeah, it's a factoid that you usually hear from people surrounding places that
have one installed, but given that I've seen more than 3 in person, it's
certainly not true.

There is a list in the German Wikipedia[0].

[0]:
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Paternosteraufzügen](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Paternosteraufzügen)

~~~
schoen
That's quite a few! A lot of those show up on the list as "nur für
Mitarbeiter" and "nicht öffentlich"; is there a nice list anywhere of those
few that are open to the public? I'd like to try one sometime while they're
still operating.

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hobofan
Due to the no-doors nature of a Paternoster the "employee only" is usually
weakly "enforced" by a sign inside the Paternoster that says so, in order to
waive liability. So if you are willing to go slight grey-hat, a lot of the
ones listed as "employee only" are still accessible for you.

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nagVenkat
I had the “pleasure” of using one in Germany. I had the worst sense of dread
when I was getting into and out of them. But I think I just needed to get used
to them I guess.

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enriquto
If you think about it, it is orders of magnitude less dreadful than walking on
a street with hundreds of cars around you, driven by strangers.

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closeparen
Cars are periodically made to stop to let you through. This is more like
trying to cross a freeway.

~~~
Johnny555
I think you mean "cars are periodically _requested_ to stop", at least, I
haven't seen any crosswalks around here with physical barriers that _make_ the
cars stop.

But unfortunately, that's not the only hazard pedestrians face from cars, not
too long ago I saw a car jump the curb and run into a (fortunately) empty bus
shelter. If anyone was waiting at that shelter, they'd have ended up under the
car.

So yeah, I'd feel safer taking a paternoster every day than walking to work...
at least then, my safety is in my own hands.

~~~
johnday
> I think you mean "cars are periodically _requested_ to stop"

What a pointless and nonsense distinction to make. I was made to eat my
vegetables as a child. They weren't physically forced down my throat.

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MarcScott
I did a work experience placement at a UK hospital about twenty five years
ago, and they had an operational paternoster lift. It took about two days of
regularly riding the thing before I plucked up the courage to ride it all the
way over the top.

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ehnto
Oh my I hadn't even thought about what happens at the top or bottom. Was it
completely enclosed? Do you end up going behind the lifts that are facing the
opening or is there a divider?

What if the power shuts off at the peak? Or worse, at the bottom in the less
trafficked basement level? So many questions.

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tom_mellior
For questions of this type, YouTube can be good. Here is a random video I
found by typing "paternoster over the top" (it's one of the suggestions once
you type "paternoster") into the search box:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoCQ6tq5wJE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoCQ6tq5wJE)

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gambiting
It's not a paternoster, but I actually wonder how common is this in the world
- almost every lift in every apartment block in Poland I've ever visited only
had outside doors but no door inside(so you could see the floors moving past
and yes, had to be very careful not to lean on that side). Have other, non ex-
soviet countries ever used such design?

They look like this from the inside:

[https://youtu.be/I4hg_jGzO3U](https://youtu.be/I4hg_jGzO3U)

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Grue3
I live in the most soviet country of them all, and I have never seen this lift
design even in the dingiest khrushchyovkas. Seems incredibly unsafe!

~~~
kwhitefoot
There is one in the building where I used to work in Norway. But it has been
fitted with a light curtain so that it won't move if there is anything close
to the door. It's perfectly safe now.

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Taniwha
This what not what I expected - I spent a summer as a student working in a
space with a manual cargo lift with no buttons, instead there was a hole in
the wall with a chain. To go up you pull down on the chain, when you reached
your floor you grab the (stationary, but the lift is moving) chain, which
pulls it up and it stops, pull it up a bit further and it goes down - you have
to guess the stop height to pull the chaiun at just the right spot

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dragonwriter
The MULTI seems potentially awesome; even when used as a pure vertical lift,
it looks like it could be used to make something that had multiple cars with
passing, allowing a safe stops-and-doors system with the density of a
paternoster but reduced opportunity for and severity of traffic jams, which is
kind of the best of all worlds.

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interfixus
The Danish parliament building, Christiansborg in Copenhagen, built just
around one hundred years ago, has such a contraption for MPs and their
entourage flitting between floors. The article's main photo could almost be
it, and possibly is, though something about wood and marble looks slightly
off.

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lsc
I watched 'Metropolis'(1927) the other day[1]; The rich main character lived
in a building with these; I was not aware it was an actual thing, rather than
just "The most future looking elevator that the effects team could cobble
together" \- The movie really did have some other amazing effects, so it was
reasonable, I guess, to assume that this, too was a trick.

[1]I joked that it was more a dark warning of the dangers of bad civil
engineering than the social commentary it's generally thought to be.

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murukesh_s
Since it's non-stop, wouldn't this take more power than modern elevators? Why
to keep running large number of them despite other concerns including safety?
One or two kept in a heritage museum is understandable, but this large number
is a bit hard to digest.

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dpark
> _Why to keep running large number of them despite other concerns including
> safety?_

Because people apparently like them and because replacing an elevator is an
expensive affair.

It’s not clear that paternoster lifts are really more dangerous than standard
elevators. The failures of safeties described can happen with standard
elevators as well.

~~~
hotsauceror
Yes but there are also accessibility concerns. These are public spaces, and at
least in the US there are laws about public accessibility. How would someone
on crutches, or in a wheelchair, or with a service dog, use such a thing? I
assume that they aren’t the only option available in the building.

~~~
tgsovlerkhgsel
They would use a separate elevator hidden a bit off to the side, and they
wouldn't have to wait for it because most other people would be using the
paternoster.

A paternoster can transport at least 12 people per minute (depending on the
speed of course) per direction from any floor to any floor, more if their
travel paths don't overlap or people ignore the "max two people per cab" sign.

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tomxor
Interesting, If it could be made inherently safe somehow this would be so much
more efficient, but I just can't help the persistent image of Resident Evil
"the lift scene" from entering my head.

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tgsovlerkhgsel
I'm not sure how inherently unsafe they are compared with regular elevators
that have shaft doors but not cabin doors.

They can theoretically squish you between the floor of a rising cabin and the
ceiling, and between the ceiling of a cabin going down and the floor. To
prevent this, you could place a movable board coupled to a sensor at ceiling
of the cabin and the ceilings of the entry "doors". If the cabin starts
squishing someone while going down, the board gets pushed upwards, and
triggers an e-stop. If it starts squishing someone going upwards, again, the
outer board at that floor gets pushed, and again, triggers the e-stop. (The
board would have to be able to move more than the elevator needs to stop,
obviously).

At that point, the remaining risk seems to be similar to regular elevators
that don't have inner doors.

(Existing installations seem to have solved this passively with breakaway
panels and gaps, which is probably good enough, but would make it possible to
jump from the cabin into the shaft while it is between floors.)

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jthacker
The article mentions that it's a problem to ride the elevator past the top or
bottom floor, but it is unclear why. I don't see why this should be an issue.

~~~
matt4077
The one I know has several signs on the exposed inside walls above the topmost
floor all assuring you that you will not be turned upside down, or folded, or
run through a meat grinder.

Based on the adage that every (non-)warning sign is there for a reason, I can
only assume that there have been incidents of people panicking after they
realized they had gone to far.

Just to be clear: it’s absolutely safe to go around. Any other stories you may
hear are the inside joke of those five beaurocrats on the top floor enjoying
their tiny fiefdom of chaos.

Edit: could people downvoting this please give a reason? I’m really not
complaining, just terribly curious what could possibly stroke people the wrong
way in this benign post. Or is this the Paternoster conspiracy coordinating to
keep their secret?

~~~
Animats
_Just to be clear: it’s absolutely safe to go around._

There is a variation which isn't - the "man lift".[1] Those are dangerous, and
sometimes seen in parking garages for staff only. Those really do turn upside
down at the top. They're usually equipped with a switch to shut them down if
someone rides past the top landing.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KzEAs3Yclg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KzEAs3Yclg)

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seanmcdirmid
I saw one of these at a bicycle shop in Bern circa 2006; was too scared to try
so took the stairs.

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empressplay
There's paternosters in Babylon Berlin, an awesome show BTW

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mrchicity
Sounds similar in operation to a Shabbat Elevator
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator))
which visit every floor automatically, but still have traditional doors and
don't run on a looped circuit.

The debate over whether such devices violate religious rules is pretty
interesting. I have to imagine if there's an omnipotent deity looking upon on
his followers from on high, he'd be thinking something like: Very clever,
humans, but you know exactly why I made the rule, and it wasn't so you could
win on a slight technicality by not pushing any buttons.

~~~
the-dude
I was under the impression Jewish people are actually enjoying bending the
rules through such clever hacks.

There are also Shabbat ovens. Turn on/off automatically, so you are not
operating the machine!

~~~
WJW
Not to mention Shabbat lamps, which have an opaque shade you can put over them
so you won't notice the light while it technically stays on. I also think any
reasonable deity would be pretty miffed at this avoidance of the rules, but
then again I suppose the Jews would know their god better than me.

(In a somewhat more reasonable/funny bending of the rules; Jews are apparently
also forbidden to "tear cloth" on the Shabbat, since that counted as work back
in the day for tailors etc. However, after some discussions in the rabbinate
there is now "Shabbat toilet paper", which does not come on a roll but as
loose leaves of paper so you don't have to do any tearing on the day itself.)

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mikeash
My understanding (as a secular Jew, so I could be wrong) is that the attitude
is that if God hadn't meant for there to be loopholes like this, He wouldn't
have written the rules this way in the first place. In a way, trying to obey
the spirit rather than the letter of the law is implying imperfection on the
part of the author of the laws.

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WJW
That actually makes a lot of sense, (provided you believe He exists and is
infallible in the first place)

After more reading, there is apparently a sect that (while otherwise quite
orthodox) considers electricity from photovoltaic power not to violate the
commandment of "not making fire" and so provided they have PV panels or
batteries they can use electricity freely on Shabbat. Still not for working of
course, but a light would be OK.

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moocowtruck
glad these are on their way out other than some eccentric toy

