
DevDegree: Work at Shopify and get a free CS degree in parallel - PandawanFr
https://devdegree.ca/
======
peteretep
Reminder that this exists, which is a Software Engineering MSc from a
reasonably well-known uni, that you're meant to do while working:

[http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/softeng/](http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/softeng/)

all-in cost was something like £25,000 for me including accommodation, and
they're open minded about accepting people without undergraduate degrees.

EDIT: happy to answer questions by email

~~~
golergka
> they're open minded about accepting people without undergraduate degrees

[https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/msc-
compute...](https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/msc-computer-
science?wssl=1#content-tab--2)

> As a minimum, applicants should hold or be predicted to achieve the
> equivalent of the following UK qualifications:

> a first-class undergraduate degree with honours in a subject with a
> significant component of mathematics and/or computing.

So, is an undergraduate degree required or not?

~~~
randomchars
> A typical applicant will have at least two years' experience in a
> professional environment, and an undergraduate degree in a related subject.
> However, more extensive experience may compensate for a lack of formal
> qualifications, and a strong, immediately-relevant qualification may
> compensate for a lack of professional experience.

[http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/softeng/study/apply.html](http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/softeng/study/apply.html)

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tybit
This looks a lot more like an apprenticeship to me than a degree.

Which I think is fantastic, Universities are generally terrible at teaching
practical skills and fantastic at teaching theory.

~~~
stonejolt
That's what we call 'Duales Studium' in Germany. You just do your semesters
normally and in between instead of springbreak etc you work for the company.

~~~
dna_polymerase
Yes, and the founder of Shopify is originally from Germany, I bet he got
inspired by that.

~~~
spinlock_
Yeah, I guess so too. Toby told in a podcast [0] that he finished an
apprenticeship as "Fachinformatiker für Anwendungsentwicklung". Though it's
not the same as "Duales Studium" (which gives you an academic degree while
former doesn't) I guess this program was highly influenced by his experience.
Though I'm asking myself if this kind of program is common in Canada or is
Shopify doing something unique here?

[0]: [https://fs.blog/tobi-lutke/](https://fs.blog/tobi-lutke/)

------
alphakilo
It's wonderful to see this on the front page. I'm currently a student at the
Lassonde School of Engineering at York University studying software
engineering and heavily involved in the school community.

The Lassonde School of Engineering opened 8 years ago with a fervour for
Innovation and Entrepreneurship. I suggest folks give the school a Google
search as it has rapidly developed to become a phenomenonal environment with
its own startup incubator and entrepreneurshi' degree with courses from VCs. I
digress, but feel free to ask me any more questions about the school.

The dev degree program started its first cohort last year actually and it now
is in its second year.

It is structured so students work 20 hours a week at Shopify and take 3
courses per semester at school. Students are required to work and go to school
through the summer which allows them to complete the degree in the standard
four years.

My peers in the program have I said great things. One of the key parts of the
program is how one switches between different teams to get a better
understanding of the software engineering landscape. Moreover the mentorship
is very helpful and not only developing your technical skills by yourself
skills.

One question that students and parents asked me a lot is if there is a
requirement to work at Shopify following the completion of the program.
Luckily Shopify has made it clear that they will not be expecting students to
stay once they complete their degree, but it is my intuition that many people
from the program will stay on after their large time investment into the
Shopify ecosystem.

Overall, I would have entered this program myself for it for engineering
students as well. Sadly, the program is restricted to computer science
students as the Canadian accreditation requirements for engineering are not
fulfilled while in the dev degree program.

Although people may say "why do you need a degree?", it is difficult to find a
job without the qualification of showing your ability to complete post-
secondary in a field of candidates that did.

With initiatives such as Silicon Valley trip for students run by the Lassonde
co-op Department, I am sure that lassonde will continue to innovate and engage
students in meaningful ways beyond the traditional methods.

~~~
rchaud
How do you feel about York's CS program in terms of helping students be
competitive candidates? At some Toronto companies it sometimes feels like they
prefer U Waterloo CS or Engineering grads.

------
swyx
i am wishing i could go back 15 years and do this now. i was dumb enough to go
to an ivy league for an unrelated degree, then change careers and go thru a
bootcamp, and i'm now still 100's of thousands in debt. if i was growing up
today i would absolutely drop everything to do this. kudos to shopify but it
really feels a little bittersweet.

~~~
chrisseaton
> now still 100's of thousands in debt

Is that hyperbole, or literally your debt is that much?

~~~
swyx
not hyperbole. there were some compounding factors i didnt mention, but the
bulk is quite literally college tuition. i dont need to put my screwed up
financial life on display but it's the single worst decision of my life, all
for imagined prestige. i'm lucky enough that i will earn my way out of it, but
it is quite literally preventing me from starting any businesses right now,
which is what i actually want to do.

this Shopify program would have been a lifesaver. we need way more Shopifys in
the world.

~~~
JDiculous
I made the mistake too, going $128k in debt to pursue a unrelated master's
degree at an Ivy only to end up pursuing software engineering.

Are your loans from the government? If so, you can likely qualify for the Pay-
as-you-earn program where your payments are capped at 10% of your disposable
income, and debts are forgiven after 20 years (though you have to pay taxes on
the amount forgiven I believe). Of course it still stings to see $1.3k/month
get sucked out of your bank account to pay the interest on this student debt
scam, just know that the pain is mostly psychological. I just choose not to
think about it, because it's too depressing otherwise.

I honestly believe that student debt will be forgiven within 10-20 years.
Candidates like Elizabeth Warren are already pledging to eliminate student
loan debt. Once the younger generation is in power, they will likely kill this
giant pyramid scheme and forgive all student loans. And no matter what happens
in Congress, if all of us collectively strike on our student loan debt, then
the government will have no choice but to fix this problem they created.

~~~
rchaud
$128k for a master's degree? Surely it had to be an MBA or a business school
degree (MFin etc) of some sort? Most other Master's programs are research-
oriented and paid for with grants, stipends and TA work.

~~~
JDiculous
It was expensive because it was at an Ivy League school. Most masters students
at Ivy League schools do not receive any form of financial aid. It's basically
a money printing machine for the university, and I fell for it.

I could've gotten a M.S. for free at my state university, but I wanted the
prestige. Dumbest decision ever.

------
greenie_beans
This is cool. But very conflicting for me personally. Here I am, deciding
whether to apply to the Mississippi Teacher's Corp, which would give me a free
Master's degree while getting paid to teach. Probably like $35k per year. And
then here is this program, which is very tempting to apply to, partly because
of the salary. It should be the other way around. Teaching is so much more
valuable than coding.

~~~
i_haz_rabies
As a somewhat weak rule, compensation seems to be inversely proportional to
social value.

~~~
WrtCdEvrydy
Not to shill a book, but Bullshit Jobs goes into this... those 'jobs like
teaching are FUN' therefore they don't get paid as much.

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mwexler
Here is some history and background about why Shopify did this and the success
they saw early on.

[https://engineering.shopify.com/blogs/engineering/dev-
degree...](https://engineering.shopify.com/blogs/engineering/dev-degree-a-big-
bet-on-software-education)

Disclosure: recent hire at Shopify, not through this program. Just learned
about it, actually today from HN. After mentioning it to my team, was pointed
to this link and thought I'd share it here.

------
brutus1213
Kudos to Shopify! You are leading the way!

I offhand mentioned a previous program they ran (letting people out of the
field get an internship) to someone I knew, and it made a huge difference.
Creating/sustaining jobs/incomes in this way is actually very cool in my
books.

------
duxup
As someone who went the bootcamp route, got a job, and absolutely would love a
structured CS education that would expand my skills and experience beyond my
day to day coding I do now this is very tempting.

The site isn't very specific about location, are there location requirements?

~~~
willjp
There are two universities involved: Carleton (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada) and
York (Toronto, Ontario, Canada).

You must apply and qualify for the university degree, in addition to being
selected by shoppify themselves. If I remember correctly when I asked about
it, the University also had some say in the selection process.

When I looked into it, the number of accepted was quite low (I believe less
than 15 per year), which to me indicates they are quite selective.

The people I met were exceptionally friendly, and genuine. It seems like a
really excellent place to work, at least from the outside.

~~~
redis_mlc
Shopify's HQ is in Ottawa, hence Carleton University.

York is in suburban Toronto.

Those schools are not quite in the same league as Toronto or Waterloo, but
they're adequate.

~~~
alphakilo
The Lassonde on School of Engineering at York University started eight years
ago. Within the last 8 years The Faculty has made major growth and acquired
world-class faculty. The school is more than adequate and was named as one of
three schools worldwide to watch in a report by MIT. I suggest you look at the
teaching methods of the school and you will see how it differs from
traditional ciriculums.

In my personal opinion, the education received in many areas. Lassonde
stronger than both the traditional education of University of Toronto and
University of Waterloo. I think there are benefits to each school, but they
are different benefits. I strongly feel as your statement about the school's
not being in the same league are without an understanding of educational
institutions in Canada for engineering and computer science.

Source: President of the Engineering Student Union @ Lassonde where I am
involved in all parts fo faculty operations.

~~~
chmln
> the education received in many areas. Lassonde stronger than both the
> traditional education of University of Toronto and University of Waterloo

How is it stronger? It is a bit misleading to label UofT and Waterloo as
"traditional" when both provide extensive coop programs and highly relevant
courses.

------
baron816
Says $160,000 salary. I’m guessing that’s total over the 4 years, so $40k CAD
per year. Still a great deal.

~~~
fataliss
It says salary, tuition & vacation. So I wouldn't be surprised if that's a
$160k estimation for the whole thing for the 4 years! But yeah, either way,
better than $60k/y in tuition you end up owing!

~~~
vuwumu
Tuition in Canada is around $10k-20k/year depending on school and status.

~~~
disconcision
Sounds a bit high. From a brief search (computer science bsc tuition, CAD,
domestic (non-quebec) student): $6500 UBC, $11000 (McGill), $12500 (UofT),
$15500 (Waterloo)

~~~
coralreef
$10k tuition at York U, for the CS degree mentioned in the link.

------
xupybd
Wait how do they make money out of this. They're paying salary to people that
can't yet code?

I've seen companies strugle to make money with mid level devs.

~~~
keenmaster
When you’re the first large provider of tech apprenticeships, you want
apprentices to stick around after graduation. The problem is that Shopify
generally can’t force employees to stay (companies hate suing over breach of
contract for education subsidies). One work around is to pay a low salary
during the training period. That’s exactly what Shopify is doing (160K over 4
years = 40K per year).

This could be a cheap way of boosting Shopify’s workforce and reputation. Tech
companies have high revenue per employee. If Big Tech follows suit with other
apprenticeships, Shopify could be known as the company that made white collar
apprenticeships a thing in the U.S. and Canada. The apprentice program would
become less expensive for Shopify over time as it captures apprentices from
other companies.

~~~
xupybd
I need to move to the states if 40k is a low salary for a junior over there. I
started on less than that.

~~~
oswamano
I'd say 40k is a bit low for a junior with a degree and the states does pay
some of the highest salaries for developers, so not wrong

------
fataliss
Would be nice for (a) company/ies to do the same and allow for remote work
while partnering with online program(s) (a la udemey & co or even some Harvard
online). That way, it would let people all over the world access it and pool
some really dope talent for the company(ies)! The students would be thrilled
for the free or subsidized education while having some real world practice
from real world companies. I remember hating how dumb some of the projects
were in school and how going out of your way to make the project really
awesome didn't really earn you much.

~~~
clintonb
Remote work can be difficult for experienced engineers. I imagine it would be
a huge burden for new engineers.

------
SnowingXIV
This looks really neat. I wish I had the foresight years ago to join something
like this or even do a straight cs track to a large company.

My path has been less linear. Finished college with an accounting degree then
worked at two fortune 500 consulting companies. I spent my nights and weekends
doing web development work on the side (even did a failed startup with a
buddy). A full-time opportunity opened up from one of these gigs and I've been
there since. Now I run all their applications, websites, IT, and digital
advertising.

Whenever I see programs like this pop up I'm always intrigued to supplement
professional work with an academic mark in the hat as I know things could
wind-down here and will be on a job search leaving me nervous as a 30 y/o
developer whose has been working at small businesses (and not anything like
FAANG). This is why I'll still pick up freelance work from time to time.

For sanity about 2 years back, I did apply and went through a series of
interviews and tests for a remote software engineering position at a hot bay
area company. It came down between me and one other guy. They conducted
additional interviews because it was quite close. I ended up getting beat out,
the other guy had a few years on me.

------
sandGorgon
We dont have accreditation from universities, but this is the direction we are
going with the RedCarpet ROCKS program .

[https://www.redcarpetup.com/rocks](https://www.redcarpetup.com/rocks)

we do active placement here (unless we hire them). We have an above 90%
placement rate here.

~~~
sandeep1998
Interested. Final year I.T. engineering student from university of Mumbai.

------
aiphex
At my university there are a number of math requirements for the CS degree. A
couple calculus courses, a couple linear algebra courses and a discrete math
course. Each of them is the foundation for other CS courses, such as discrete
math is for analysis of algorithms. Is this the case with these newer schools
/ approaches to becoming a software engineer? I for one really appreciate the
math, but is it appreciated in industry? Curious to know.

------
jakubwaw
Does having a degree matter for majority of developer roles? I've gone down
the apprenticeship route (UK) and went into web development. Getting a degree
would be very unlikely to affect my chances of getting a job (should I move
away from freelancing), or a higher salary, not everywhere, but probably 9/10
places.

Keen to hear other experiences and opinions

~~~
big_chungus
Web dev is different from others, but I think that it's not a huge help. Or at
least, a comp sci degree isn't going to help too much. Web dev is more about
presenting content than about "serious comp sci stuff". A comp sci degree is
useful if you need to work a job where you have to remember which sub-type of
trie is best for such and such data.

That said, you can learn just fine without a degree. Much of what I learned,
especially the stuff that most developers use, was before college. The biggest
barrier is that many employers consider college a test of "not being a fruit
loop", but if you've got work experience, that should help overcome the
barrier.

------
starpilot
What are "mature students"?

~~~
HiroshiSan
[https://admissions.carleton.ca/applicant-type/mature-
applica...](https://admissions.carleton.ca/applicant-type/mature-applicants/)

------
LoSboccacc
any opportunity like these for someone looking to move in australia?

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erland
Great idea, it's a shame that they had to add this 50/50 nonsense. I know a
lot of guy that would kill for that opportunity.

~~~
blahbhthrow3748
And I know a lot of women who have been successful graduates of the program,
what's your point?

~~~
abdulmuhaimin
I dont understand these split of opportunity based on something(race/sex etc).
Its more PR move than anything

If people truly want equality, it shouldnt even be a factor. No prejudice.
Just treat all as of us one thing, human being.

~~~
blahbhthrow3748
If everyone starts from the same place it's fine to say "give everyone equal
opportunity". If you really want to have equal opportunity given the
historical and social background you have to acknowledge that everyone doesn't
start from the same place.

~~~
erland
And how exactly does it translate to gender? If anything, I would argue that
most women have much better background. Not that it matters anyway. If an
immigrant from 3rd world country can come to US at age 30 and be better than
the competition, then you pretty much have no excuse if you were born here.

------
dangerface
> get a free CS degree

Why? Learn stuff thats out of date from some one who has never don it. Even
without the debt academia is pointless, just learn to learn.

~~~
a-priori
" _because the parents want it. I 'm not joking, that's the actual reason._"

[https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1216800493684580356](https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1216800493684580356)

