
Ask HN: I want to be a 40h/week intermediate developer.How do I stay employable? - firestri
Using a throw-away because it is career suicide to express these thoughts so candidly. This post might trigger people with different views on work than mine.<p>I&#x27;m an average developer. I can write decent, legible code, with tests, and solve a business problem according to specs. I didn&#x27;t study CS and learned it all out of sheer curiosity and passion. I have about five years of experience, all at web startups.<p>So far, so good.<p>But here is the thing: I only like to stay for a year or less at a given place and then quit (or get laid off, even better because I get employment insurance). I go on a 1-6 months break to recharge before I have to look for work again.<p>I&#x27;m perfectly fine staying an average developer. I want to do my 40 hours a week, sit out of office politics, go home, and do things I enjoy more with the rest of my time. I have no interest in becoming a lead or a senior dev: the extra stress isn&#x27;t worth it, the Kool-Aid doesn&#x27;t taste good, and I&#x27;m paid well enough as it is.<p>It feels like I&#x27;m living a lie though because hiring managers would much rather get docile, &quot;hungry&quot;, &quot;passionate&quot; people who aren&#x27;t going to leave after 9-12 months. So I have to pretend while interviewing so I can get my next job and pay my bills until it&#x27;s time for me to take a break again.<p>I don&#x27;t enjoy doing this because it feels dirty.<p>So this time around, I&#x27;m looking at alternatives: how can I work on my own terms and take long breaks in-between while staying employable? Should I look for agencies and only go for 3-6-9 months contracts? Should I give up tech entirely to avoid the broken interview process and avoid burning out at work?<p>I can&#x27;t believe I&#x27;m the only one thinking this way, I know there are plenty of so-called &quot;clock punchers&#x2F;pragmatists&quot;[0] who refuse to play the game. So I&#x27;m asking you: how do you pull it off? How do you survive? What do you tell your managers and your interviewers?<p>[0]: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;daedtech.com&#x2F;defining-the-corporate-hierarchy&#x2F;
======
wpasc
This may cut against what some other are saying, but I've found larger tech
companies to be very reasonable about the 40 hr work weeks. As you stated,
you've had experience all at web startups. Startups tend to encourage the
"work-all-day-every-day" mentality whereas (at least in my experience) larger
tech companies will let you do your 40 hrs. Doesn't necessarily have to be a
strictly tech company. A large corp of any size that has a decent tech
department might suit you well, but they may be less open to the long breaks.
My experience has been the large companies I've worked at (telco, bank, and
largeish internet company) have never encouraged me to work crazy hours. YMMV,
good luck!

~~~
somethingsimple
Having worked at Microsoft and being now at another big tech company, that
hasn't been my experience at all. Those companies seem to be trying to mimic
startup culture internally, so they promote the "entrepreneurial employee"
idea and try to organize groups internally as small startups.

I _wish_ I could do the 9-5 thing at those companies (given the great pay and
benefits, adding a predictable and sane work schedule would be perfect).

You may last a couple years being the odd one out doing strictly 40h a week,
but performance review is going to catch up with you at some point.

These days I bite the bullet and stay till 8 or 9pm at the office regularly.

~~~
some_account
Jesus. You would be alone in the office after 17.00 if you were in Sweden, and
people would think you are a sucker for wasting your life in an office.

You would be seen as someone who has no life. You would not get respect or
higher salary here.

You have to admit, the Swedish way is sane while your culture is crazy.

~~~
somethingsimple
Before immigrating to the US, I actually looked into Sweden. It seems nearly
impossible to immigrate there :/

Everything I hear about your country sounds amazing!

~~~
hasa
Impossible to immigrate to Sweden? They take enormous amounts of immigrants
every year. If you just find employer, they will handle the bureaucracy for
you. At least you'll get a work permission for certain time and it can be
extended if conditions are ok. Consider Finland too.

------
codegeek
You sound like a good candidate to be a freelancer. Decide your own hours,
mostly your own terms and take breaks whenever you want. Only problem is that
you have to learn to sell a lot more than what you do as a regular job
candidate.

"I only like to stay for a year or less at a given place and then quit "

This is going to start looking bad after a while for full-time jobs. It is
perfectly ok if you are freelancing though.

"I have no interest in becoming a lead or a senior dev"

Yep, call yourself whatever you want and get shit done for clients. No titles.

~~~
muzani
Freelancer here. Sorry for the downvote.

But 40h/week is not what you get when you're freelancing. Freelance is a mix
of sales, dev, consulting. You may get 20h/week some days, 60h/week other
days. There's an awful lot of stress that comes with arguing with yourself and
pushing yourself to keep moving.

I think OP just wants to be comfortable and relaxed.

~~~
scarface74
There is always W2 contracting. Find a few local recruiting companies. You
officially work for the recruiting company but you work for short 6-12 month
stints for companies. If you’re good in the right market, you should be able
to find gigs fast with no sales are marketing.

~~~
Swinx43
In the UK that is what is known as Contracting. It definitely sounds right for
the OP.

You typically get your contracts through recruiters and they typically last 3
to 6 months (sometimes longer). No sales and hustling, just doing your tech
work and keeping up to date in your field.

------
chillax0r
I've found it's quite possible to work 40ish hours a week at high paying tech
jobs if:

\- I'm ok if others work longer hours. Some people's competitive advantage is
working long hours, and when I was younger, same. At 5:30 just get up, say
goodbye to your mates and leave, don't seek approval or apologize for leaving

\- I focus on being productive, and am willing to spend a little time each
Sunday evening planning out my week so I can hit the ground running. I'm
focused and working immediately when I arrive, starting with a 25 minute
pomodoro. Avoid burning your best brain reading interesting news.

\- I'm very organized and comply with all project management practices. My
tickets are pristine and up to date.

\- I break up larger tickets into smaller ones. It's clear I'm continually
getting shit done by closed tickets and commits (note:this does not mean
bullshit commits intended to pad stats, just avoiding packing too much work
into a single ticket or commit). Commit at least every 3 days.

\- I'm hungry to continually improve my skills and spend 30 to 60 minutes in
morning at work learning stuff 3-4 days a week. I don't ask, I just do it.
Don't be shy about summarizing ways you have become more skilled relevant to
job in performance reviews

\- I take accountability for my code and am willing to help outside 9-5 if I'm
blocking others, but take care to avoid this by writing well tested software
and avoiding committing near EOD especially late on Fridays

\- avoid people managing and meetings. A trap to avoid is only being left with
2 hours of coding time per day leaving the evenings as only time to focus

\- care about your teammates and show curiosity in their expertise.
Proactively take some time to help others in balance with individual work.
Don't be shy about mentioning these activities in standups or performance
reviews

Ultimately I'm very productive and this is recognized. Sure I could be a
"superstar" by working weekends but I just don't make a big deal about the
fact that I pretty much work 9-5:30 and get my work done.

A note on finding a match: feel out work life balance during interviews. Just
sounding curious about the values and how people tend to work can help you
filter out mismatches. There are definitely companies that are explicitly
incompatible with 9-5:30.

------
adiusmus
Not the only one. Work for yourself on short contracts with others.

I’m very suspicious of people who say they work more than 40 hours per week. I
wonder about how many hours are high productivity and how many are wasted or
low intensity. I definitely work no more than 50 and average around 40. I’ve
met quite a few who do 60 hours and still meet real obligations.

Life is not a rehearsal and is definitely not a sprint. I challenge people who
work 80 hours per week to demonstrate full community/family participation.
It’s ok to do it for a short time but don’t kid yourself and think it’s a good
idea for long periods.

Another item: 6 weeks vacation is a requirement.

Spoiler: I work for myself. I’m not unique. Plenty of other people are doing
this.

~~~
firestri
How do you find those contracts? I don't have all that much of a network, my
former colleagues are either still at the startups I left or working for
another startup.

~~~
adiusmus
Expand your network. Expand your bubble. Find real people. Ask them questions.
Work out what they need. Provide it either directly or indirectly. I’m still
working and learning about this approach.

My contract work is often “deliver this thing at particular milestones and get
it into production by this date”. I politely reject contracts that don’t fit
me. I’ve had clients call me back and adjust schedules around my availability
as I’ve stipulated I’m already allocated for particular weeks.

Caveats: I’m not a startup guy yet I have started various businesses up.

------
dagw
Get out of software. Not software developing, just the software business.

There are lots of industries that are far more sane, but that still need
developers. Try looking for a government job for example. Or within fields
like logistics, transport, insurance or civil engineering. There a tons of
programming opportunities out there that have nothing in common with web based
startups. Working on an in-house app for a large logistics company might sound
'sexy', but it can offer a decent wage a stable working situation and far more
sane working hours. And the truth is there are lots of genuinely interesting
problems to be solved within a lot boring industries. Also you might have to
accept you'll be working with some weird in-house COBOL dialect.

------
abcd_f
Consider working for government?

Not sure about States, but in Canada you are normally _required_ to not work
more than 8 hours a day and you _forced_ take coffee breaks (formerly, smoke
breaks) throughout the day. The work load is notoriously low, vacations are
very long, bureaucracy is high, layoffs are unheard of and it will take a
significant effort on your part to get yourself fired. The downside is that
you need to join a union, the pay is low and you won't work with the brightest
bulbs. But these are very comfortable and safe jobs, which can be kept for
life without much effort... or so I heard.

------
giggidygig
I work for a large multinational.

I'm based in Australia, while i regularly work with teams from the US.

I've found my US counterparts are extremely bad at using their time
efficiently and productively, even though, they are intelligent, knowledgeable
and easy going (hands down, some of the best problem solvers i've ever worked
with).

I was asked to work late once (due to time differences), and they were shocked
when i said "i'm only available during working hours". They took it as a
slight, or that i was being rude. I was even called "lazy".

It wasn't until i had an "offline" conversation with some of them that we both
got the opportunity to discuss each others points of views.

My US counterparts admitted that one of their main reasons for not saying
"no", was Health Care, or the risk of losing health care if you lost your job.

I think this (no fault to my US colleagues, i would probably feel/think the
same way), results in bad work practices being perpetuated, resulting in
unnecessary work hours, or, at least the perception that its required in order
for you to be seen to be "doing a good job".

There's working longer when there's actual work that needs doing, but then
there is working longer because your being held hostage to a job because your
petrified of getting sick without one.

Case in point, one of my US colleagues was working 2 days after having heart
bypass surgery. TWO DAYS!!!!

------
itamarst
Another alternative is negotiating a shorter workweek - you might be willing
to stay longer at a job if you're working less than 40 hours a week.

I've done this, and it's pretty great. I interviewed someone who's been doing
it for past 15 years: [https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/01/08/part-time-
programmer...](https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/01/08/part-time-programmer/)

------
TheLilHipster
> I can't believe I'm the only one thinking this way, I know there are plenty
> of so-called "clock punchers/pragmatists"[0] who refuse to play the game. So
> I'm asking you:

> how do you pull it off?

I'm honest to a fault in every way, with my own personality. When I'm
depressed this is self-destructive, but when I'm happy it seems to
invigorating to the team mates and friends around me. This seems to click
positively with people in general, gives me a lot of rope ;). Confidence in
your own truth, I think is the key one-liner here.

> How do you survive?

Living true is freeing, the privilege to be able to do it a blessing. But if
your 'truth' is that you're a bitter, shitty person. It will kill you.

Live true but have your core-motives, your convictions, in order. 'Be a
positive influence on everyone and anyone I interact with' is a good start.

> What do you tell your managers and your interviewers?

Interviews: play the game. Haven't ever tried the snowflake approach to
interviews, haven't seen any evidence to give me the confidence needed to pull
it off.

Managers: truth, it's a slow build before you can dump deep truth on people,
but bit by bit, let them know what you're about and WHY.

Depending on the temperament of the manager, they either become mates, or they
respect/disapprove from a distance.

Hopefully you can pull some value from this stranger <3

------
arandr0x
Work for the government. Work for a school or school system or for the local
assembly of elected representatives if you really want the summers off.

There are plenty of clock punchers but typically they don't job hop. If you're
not OK working for years, often more than 40 hours, at some company that will
eventually become big enough to not be a startup, to accrue enough internal
knowledge to have value even when you don't work, you are never going to get
to the 40 hours a week long vacation stage. The alternative is the public
sector. In academia, you don't get the summers off (research doesn't stop) but
it does significantly slow down often for months at a time and you have some
variability(based on funding schedule) about what you work on, so that's
another option.

(Also, you're in Canada. You can get a seasonal non-tech job and code in the
off season. People find "full time dev who quits every 9 months" weird but
they'd find "full time contractor who is a rafting instructor/diver/park
ranger/snowmobile tour guide and codes to fund their lifestyle, so don't
schedule them in the summers/winters" mostly cool.)

------
quickthrower2
Firestri, it might be helpful to say where you are located in the world.

Anyway the options are see are:

Contracting - as you mentioned. If they are unsure enough that they make it a
contract rather than permanent role, I see no ethical issue in quitting after
the contract has finished. The question is then how do you explain this on
your next contract. I'm not sure of the answer to that, but lets say you are
flexible and say you can work anywhere in the world for work, you'll probably
find some companies somewhere who desperately need resources and can't be
fussy that someone has a sparkling resume full of 4 year stints in
progressively more senior roles at brand name companies, and they'd be happy
to take someone with more gaps in their resume than dutch cheese, because they
need to get a problem solved quick.

Another option is to find a company that lets you have lots of career breaks.
Probably want to work for a big company with the structure, processes and
policies to support this. I reckon companies like Microsoft.

Another thing to consider if you can live frugally is a funded PhD and maybe
you work on the PhD like crazy 8 months then take 4 months off, come back to
it etc. Not sure how realistic that is but it's an idea.

If you can live frugally and be nomadic (or at least willing to avoid
expensive cities) maybe freelancing remote would work for you. Earning $30/h
but living in Vietnam for example, or even a very cheap part of the US sharing
a room might be an options there. Once you get a reputation you might be able
to get your earnings up to a normal job or even higher.

~~~
firestri
I'm in Canada. I don't think I could land a job at Microsoft or Google or the
other big ones, I wouldn't pass the technical interview.

As for a PhD, don't you need a masters degree and a topic you feel strongly
enough about to spend years dwelling on it? It's not that I don't know what to
do with myself, but rather that I don't know how to live my life without
playing the rat race.

------
savethefuture
Talk to your manager, if you're planning on leaving regardless what difference
would it make if you asked for an extended period of time off?

Besides that maybe think about creating a small business, be a freelancer, or
develop a product or service that people want to use.

I feel like we're in similar boats longing for something else, lately I've
been questioning my position but I've been here for quite some time and find
it very difficult to leave the luxury I have.

------
acrooks
I suspect that you want to move on from your jobs after a year or less because
of burnout, etc. Perhaps if you join a company that has a sustainable working
culture and minimal office politics then you would not encounter the same
problem.

I happen to work for (and know of others) a Canadian company that values very
highly work-life balance and isn't targeting its hiring towards people who
work a lot. This creates a culture where you don't need to take several months
off to recharge, because your day-to-day is already sustainable. Similarly I
don't see any reason why you couldn't take a few months off every so often for
personal reasons, but still be able to return to the same job once you felt
recharged.

Email me if you want to learn more (email in profile).

------
raihansaputra
Echoing the other comments, freelancing does make sense in your context. For
the legwork of selling yourself and managing administrative stuff, there's
[https://gun.io](https://gun.io) as a freelance collective. I'm pretty sure
there should be other parties offering that kind of arrangement, but I'm not
aware of specifics.

Note: I am not related to gun.io, just saw what they were offering through the
CTO's Zappa docs and thought it was interesting.
[https://github.com/Miserlou/Zappa](https://github.com/Miserlou/Zappa)

------
rpvnwnkl
Why 40 hrs? Try 24-32 and you might find the pace suits you better. This might
work for a small org that needs a tech person but can’t support a FT tech
person.

Ideally you’ll be matching _your_ needs/wants with an _employer’s_
needs/wants. So be more aggressive in searching for the right situation, and
you might not end up needing to hurn so many bridges.

Also, evaluate why you desire to leave. Is it boredom? Difficulties working
with others? You might find you can address your malaise from this end at the
same time.

~~~
firestri
> Why 40 hrs? Try 24-32 and you might find the pace suits you better. This
> might work for a small org that needs a tech person but can’t support a FT
> tech person.

How do you find these? I've looked for PT work and everywhere wants FT
employees or nothing because they say the marginal cost to them between PT and
FT isn't much more (admin, training, office space and health insurance costs
are pretty much fixed regardless of hours worked)

I end up leaving because I get burned out, because I don't want to drink the
Kool-Aid and that doesn't sit well with management, and because I get bored:
companies never do something so amazing that I want to keep doing it a year
in. It's interesting in the beginning because you learn how the company works,
how the software works, you meet new people, maybe discover a new area of the
city where the office is in but all that eventually wears out.

~~~
rpvnwnkl
I haven’t found them, but it’s not a reason not to look or, even better, ask.
I believe that if people asked for roles like these, they would start to be
offered.

We are just too stuck in the 40hr work week tradition right now. We should
really be looking at our goals and output, not the number of hours per day
we’ll commit to working. But that’s a tall order to change. And a lot of
people would fail inder this setup because they are not goal-oriented, they
just show up, take directions, and go home.

The alternative is as others are suggesting, have no employer, set an income
goal or quality of life goal, and adjust your output to meet it. Unfortunately
you cant just make money appear by writing code, so part of your goal/output
config will involve finding a market for your output.

If this is too much work I would just do what you’re doing until people wont
hire you any longer. I expect there will still be someone who will hire you ;)

Really what you’re feeling seems really normal and I suspect most people feel
it. Working forty hours for the vast majority of employers is a poor way to
experience “life”. You have a skill set that lets you stop and start as you
wish to; most people in the world don’t have that luxury.

If I were you I would look into becoming financially independent as quickly as
possible, so you can leave this grind and explore life on your own terms. The
market is so strong right now that you should take advantage of it. It might
not last! If your motivations for working changed, you might also find you can
stick around a little longer.

------
megamindbrian2
This describes my feelings exactly. Dang, nevermind the throw away account,
let's talk about throwaway career and brainstorm on solutions for ridding
ourselves of pointless jobs.

------
swatcoder
I have so many things to say!

1\. It's okay to just want to get work done and get paid and go home. That's
what most people do in most jobs, even in tech. Flashy VC-chasing startups are
a little bubble, over-represented on HN and in the media. Most of tech workers
are working outside of that bubble and are doing exactly what you want (in
terms of hours per week and compartmentalization).

2\. The semi-annual schedule you want is also okay, but much less common.
Because it's less common, fewer project managers and departments are ready to
adapt to it. And as an intermediate developer (rather than a senior) you have
less leverage to ask them to adapt. This is why you're not telling them ahead
of time, and why you're left feeling "dirty".

3\. It's good you want to normalize things and be more open about your
preferences and needs. It's a sign of maturity in your career (and maybe
yourself).

And I think you have a few things to think about going forward:

\- _Why_ do you want to leave places after 9-12 moths. Is it just because you
like to take a few months to yourself. Would you be willing to go back to the
same place after the break? To a hiring company, that's a hugely more
palatable than if you just disappear, and is exactly the kind of thing you can
directly negotiate after you've qualified for a job and before accepting an
offer.

\- Do you just want different projects (after your break)? Then you can
absolutely apply to an agency or contracting firm. Many have struggle to
maintain 100% utilization for their workers and would welcome people who are
okay on their own between assignments. If you can slip off their
roster/payroll during slow times and hop back on when work picks up again,
they'll be happy!

\- Do you want to just avoid commitment altogether? Then consider independent
contracting. You take on a bunch of other responsibilities (hustling for work,
nagging for payment, etc) but you can take unpaid breaks whenever you want and
you can structure engagements so that you're not working with clients for
longer than you'd want. You're in control of everything.

TLDR: there are probably hundreds of thousands of people like you. Maybe
millions. Figure out the next detail in what you need and you'll see the path
ahead.

~~~
swatcoder
Oh, and to offer something more personal:

I spent the middle decade of my career with a partner at home who needed
regular care-taking. I needed to put that ahead of any traditional career
treadmill and so I worked remotely for a mid-sized contracting firm and was
clear about my availability. They gave me the work I needed, and I preserved
the time and space I needed.

Because I worked for the same firm all that time, and did good work, I
established a strong and trusting relationship that afforded me increasingly
more flexibility and control.

Plus, by volunteering to support the other sides of the business like Sales,
Recruiting, etc I learned more than enough about contracting to be quite
confident and successful when I eventually decided to go out on my own --
which gave me even _more_ control.

I can't tell you if it's a path that would make sense for you, but it was a
very rewarding one for me.

------
auslegung
Contracting sounds reasonable. Or when interviewing, find out if they’d be
willing to pay less money but give more time off. Freelancing seems good too
but you might not be interested in all the leg work to get clients. I like
what someone suggested, to just ask your current employer about extended leave
since you’ll leave them soon anyway. Good luck! It doesn’t seem unreasonable,
but it does seem like we’re not allowed to stop at Decent Programmer, Not Much
Aspiration.

------
wprapido
You should look into contracting or freelancing. Depending on where do you
live and your skills, it might be local or remote. It's totally cool to work
for a few months to a year for the same client and move on. Stay employable?
It's not something you should strive for. Focus more on coupling a steady
income with interesting projects.

------
Random_Person
I work for my state. Sure, I don't get to go on "recharge" breaks, but I do
get a month of vacation each year (plus a bunch of sick days) and I'm never
required to put in more than 40hrs.

The downside is I'm paid about half of what I should be making.

------
ionised
It sounds like being a contractor and choosing your own hours would suit your
lifestyle more.

It is something I'm looking into myself.

------
digitalpacman
Work contract. Find a business that expects 40 hour work weeks. Hunt for the
work, don't use recruiters.

~~~
justboxing
> Hunt for the work.

Easier said than done. This part seems to be the hardest, from reading
comments of other freelancers and contractors in several forums, not just HN.

Any concrete tips, "hacks" that work, that you can share in this context? The
fact that software engineers are generally bad at marketing and selling
themselves ("Imposter syndrome" much?) makes this part of contracting,
freelancing that much harder.

------
jackallis
how did you go about self learning and employed?

~~~
firestri
Are you asking because you're curious/looking to do the same or because you
think that it will help find answers?

~~~
jackallis
i am curious and looking to do the same.

~~~
firestri
Cool, so when I started out I took a mindless survival job. And on my evenings
and weekends I learned using online courses and books. I also asked questions
on forums/chats related to that technology and went to local meetups. It took
me about a year until I knew enough to get my first junior role.

Good places to learn are things like the Rails tutorial on their website, the
Ruby koans, or the Doug Crockford book about JS, frontendmasters.com.
Treehouse was also helpful for learning the basics of CSS but I didn't love
the cartoonish story around the lessons.

Above all, find a problem you have and think about how you could solve it with
technology I would say, it will let you put into practice what you're learning
and guide your direction by researching the things you're stuck on.

