
Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups - mistersquid
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/08/style/rent-subscription-clothing-furniture.html
======
mark_l_watson
I have thought about this lately because my wife and I moved to Illinois so I
could accept a job managing a machine learning team. I retired and now we are
just now moving back to Arizona. I spent five hours yesterday watching our
stuff being wrapped and put on a truck. Lots of possessions.

The thing is, I have some stuff that I really like. A teak bookcase I bought
in the 1970s when I got my first real job after finishing school. A huge teak
desk my wife bought me 20 years ago. My wife has some furniture her
grandmother had and that she grew up with. We also have art and things we have
bought while traveling around the world.

I see the advantages of not being encumbered by ‘stuff’ but some possessions
help define our personal history and are simply a pleasure to own.

~~~
grecy
Keep it if it brings you happiness, after all, that's the point.

It's the rest of the stuff that can go. I helped a friend move last month.
After we'd been to the 5 places she kept her stuff, we discovered she had 5
coffee machines, 5 cutting boards, 5 juicers, etc. etc.

The things you describe make you happier and are not stuff. The things I
described are just stuff.

~~~
pjc50
> 5 places she kept her stuff

Storage unit rental, now _that 's_ a means of preying on people who can't let
go and/or move often.

(It strikes me that there might be startup value in "home inventory
management", although it would have to be made as frictionless as possible -
wave a camera round your kitchen, inside all the cupboards, get a list of
everything you own. Snoop your Amazon webpages so it can remind you not to buy
things you already have.)

~~~
eric-hu
You say preying, but I'm glad I was able to rent out space to store some
things when I moved cities and told myself I'd move back. Turns out I didn't
move back, and only went back to pick up a few things and give away the rest.
I doubt I would have been able to detach from those things if I took them with
me.

Were the rental costs a waste? I suppose I would have saved a few hundred
dollars if I could have just gotten rid of the stuff earlier, but it would
have felt like a personal loss instead of a natural detachment.

~~~
cannonedhamster
Loss aversion is actually significantly powerful and difficult to overcome,
but think about why, it's only very recently that humanity can easily procure
anything it needs for survival with relative ease in most countries. While
getting something new is exciting losing something is far harder when you
never know when/if your going to be able to gain it again. It's helped humans
survive throughout our history, so I wouldn't be hard on yourself that it
wasn't easy to detach, you were just practicing a survival skill.

------
chrisco255
Renting an apartment vs owning a house is not necessarily a bad financial
move. Depends on a number of factors. For instance, if you anticipate moving
within a certain time frame, between closing costs, mortgage fees, commission,
etc...it can cost more to own in the first 3-5 years, especially if prices are
stagnant. Also, there are hidden costs of home ownership not necessarily
factored in for, like repairs, maintenance, etc that are just implicitly
included in rent. Finally, one can use the savings from paying rent to invest
in the stock market and generally get a higher return than real estate.

~~~
dingaling
> Finally, one can use the savings from paying rent

What savings?

Rent as you stated already includes anticipated maintenance costs, property
taxes, the landlord's mortgage costs, often an agency fee, plus a margin for
the landlord.

I don't think I've seen rental rates ever cheaper than a personal mortgage.
The main advantage of renting is avoiding long-term commitment but you'll pay
a premium for that flexibility. Otherwise there wouldn't be an incentive for
landlords.

~~~
dagw
I don't know what it's like in the US, but in Sweden you can get a much better
deal on your mortgage if you only have to borrow 80% of the cost of the house
than if you have to borrow 95+%, even when borrowing the same amount. If you
have a good job and can afford $1500/month but don't have any savings to use
as a down payment on a house you're not going to able to get as nice a place
buying as you will renting.

~~~
jbarberu
They recently changed the lower limit of the down payment to 15% in Sweden.
But yes, you'll generally get a better interest rate if you put more of your
own money into the purchase.

As a Swede in the middle of buying a house in the U.S. I have to say it's
surprisingly similar.

The big differences between Sweden and the U.S. is the loan terms. Here in the
U.S. the terms are extremely long, you'll typically get 10, 15 or 30 years
with a locked interest rate. In Sweden you'd normally lock your rate for 1-5
years up to 10 years depending on your financial situation. When I owned a
condo in Sweden I went for 1 year locked rate and then month-to-month once
that first year passed. What you have instead of a fixed term is a fixed
amortization. By law you have to pay back 2%/year until your principle is down
to 70%, 1% until it's down to 50% and after that you can just pay interest if
that's what you want to do.

------
CPLX
When I was a kid in the 80’s renting home furnishings, driving a taxi on the
side, and renting out spare rooms in your house were all very common
activities too.

They were generally things people did because they didn’t have stable well
paying jobs.

That’s still the reason. All this disruptive new economy rebranding
notwithstanding.

~~~
scottlocklin
I'm waiting for rentacenter to rebrand itself as "appliances and furniture as
a service."

~~~
rchaud
If they don't, you can be sure that Techcrunch will profile a scrappy startup
doing exactly this, closing multi-million funding rounds on the promise of
being "WeWork for furnishings".

------
elicash
This article describes a minor (but real) trend among a small group of wealthy
young people. While some of the services described have a bit wider reach
(particularly clothing companies), there's nothing THAT concerning about
people with lots of disposable income doing what people with disposable income
have always done -- spend it.

~~~
jtr1
This has been NYT’s schtick for as long as I’ve been reading it: pick up some
trend among the young trust fund class of New York and breathlessly report it
as a generational shift. It’s a decent ad-mover.

~~~
sct202
Lots of people like to hate read things about them.

------
QuadrupleA
Not sure about furniture and clothing, but Joymode sounds interesting -
kitchen gadgets, game consoles, VR headsets etc. Things someone might want to
try, but could just sit around unused once the initial excitement is over. REI
also, for outdoor gear - I've got backpacking stuff that sits in the basement
doing nothing most of the year.

It's much easier to acquire things than unacquire them - selling on
craigslist, carting things off to goodwill, or lugging them around during a
move is a hassle. Being able to just tell a company you're done, and they'll
come pick it up, has a definite appeal. Guess it comes down to doing the math
on actual costs and disposal/move/recycle effort.

One of my random interests last year was stargazing and astronomy - I bought a
cheap telescope because I wasn't sure how long-term interested I'd be, and
after a few weeks of heavy use it's been mostly sitting around. Might have
been better value to rent a more expensive one while my time & interest were
high.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _It 's much easier to acquire things than unacquire them_

That's a good point. I wish it was easier. I have a lot of things in my home
I'd like to get rid of and which still could be of use to someone else. I'd
gladly sell them for a dollar or two each, but at that price point it isn't
even worth the time I'm spending writing this HN comment, much less putting it
up on an auction, paying the processing fee, and mailing it to someone. I
could give them away for free on one of the local giveaway/exchange groups,
but the very thought of getting someone to drive a couple kilometers to pick
up a dollar-item makes me cringe - it's a ridiculously anti-environmental
practice.

It's one of the reasons I tend to put not-completely-destroyed things on a
side of a trash container in our neighbourhood - a local dumpster diver may
appreciate it and get extra mileage from things I no longer need.

~~~
martin_a
> I wish it was easier. I have a lot of things in my home I'd like to get rid
> of and which still could be of use to someone else.

But wasn't it like this some years ago? I think I sold so much stuff I didn't
need anymore on eBay and sometimes made good money from it. Nowadays eBay is
not very user-friendly for private people and therefore unusable for this.

"eBay Kleinanzeigen" (not sure if this exists outside of Germany) is there,
but it's lacking the auction features which made selling stuff so much fun...

~~~
ghaff
I sold some things on eBay back in the day. Perhaps younger me would have
found it worth the hassle. But taking photos, putting together a listing,
dealing with buyer questions, shipping, etc. was all way too much trouble for
anything but the odd relatively high value item like a camera lens.

And that's not even counting the bulky things which are what I really want to
get rid of.

------
rishav_sharan
I actually do this. I have rented 2 king size beds, a sofa, a 200l fridge, 40
inch led tv, small ac and a dining table for around $120 per month.

In return i get complete peace of mind, free maintenance and the ability to
update my furniture for no reason other than i want to.

I personally am pretty happy with renting most of this stuff but will be
buying my own dtuff once i have my own house

~~~
jijji
you can buy all of that on craigslist for ~$700 ... $100 for each bed, $100
(or free) for sofa, $200 for fridge $100 for tv, ac for $50 and dining table
for $50.. If you plan on relocating in six months to another city, that might
make sense...

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
I wouldn't buy or accept a free couch or bed from Craigslist. There's the
potential for bed bugs. Anything with non-porous surfaces (outdoor furniture)
is fine.

~~~
someone-knows
I just bought a couch on Craigslist and limited my search to wealthy
neighborhoods only. I think I got a great deal.

------
mherdeg
If the business model for CaaStle does not work out, but I can accurately
predict when they will go out of business, should I sign up to rent a bunch of
stuff that month and hope I get to keep it after the shutdown?

~~~
jijji
i was evicting some tenants who had a brand new bed from rent-a-center, and
the guys came to pick it up.... one of them forgot his hex screw driver, and
called into the manager to say he "saw bed bugs" and then they gave the guy
the bed for free -- actually i wound up taking it, but i think if u say "bed
bugs" when it comes to those beds, all of a sudden they dont want it back (no
it didnt have bed bugs)

~~~
maccard
I returned a mattress under one of those 90 day "no questions asked" return
policies, and when they came to pick it up they said because it wasn't in the
plastic wrapping that they wouldn't lift it, but they'd deliver my new
mattress and mark the old one as disposed.

------
ZeroFries
I personally like buying used, keeping it in good shape or even improving on
the bought condition, and re-selling when I no longer need it/am moving.

My aunt's mother-in-law just moved back to England from Canada. She spent
thousands to ship back junk. She could have sold or donated most of it and
used the money to buy all new stuff back home and been way better off for it.

------
lscharen
“It is quite likely that, when you lived in America, you leased everything.
You never owned anything, but someone else did and you had to pay for every
single thing you used. That's another form of resource ownership that
concentrates wealth.”

    
    
       — Manna, Chapter 5
       — https://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
I'm still not convinced this is good for companies. They think everyone will
stick around and keeping paying, unwavering loyalty month-after-month, when in
reality, many people cancelled their HBO subscription after Game of Thrones
was over. It doesn't really solve the volatility problem for business income.
When the next downturn hits, guess what will be the first thing to go?
Frivolous subscriptions.

~~~
baroffoos
Maybe this is why they are moving to subscription furniture. You may be quick
to cut your movie subscription but not your bed or fridge subscription.

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
I'm sure businesses will experiment with renting all sort of things and see
what sticks. The market for less serious rentals (such as entertainment) is
probably much bigger than furniture.

Knowing I'm renting a sofa, and that if I spill something on it, I'd be
responsible sounds far too stressful (maybe I'm not, but I'd have to find the
answer to that). Also, do they deliver and pick up the furniture when I'm done
with it? Do I pay extra for that? I have questions about the model. Consumers
tend to steer away from things they can't understand.

~~~
majewsky
> Consumers tend to steer away from things they can't understand.

Then why did/do we have a ton of financial non-experts buying financial
products that they don't understand?

------
flukus
> The items that are being offered for temporary ownership to this cohort are
> a far cry from the Rent-A-Centers of the world, which target cash-strapped
> consumers who often lack access to credit. Fernish, for example, is geared
> toward young people whose design sense comes straight from Instagram,
> Pinterest and West Elm’s catalog. The company, founded in 2017, trades in
> imitation Eames shell chairs, midcentury-style wooden dressers and Art Deco-
> inspired bar carts, offering brands like Crate & Barrel and more boutique
> names like Campaign.

So they're basically high end rent-a-centers? Apart from the exact products
I'm not really seeing what's new, the business model goes back to at least
1930
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Rentals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Rentals))
and has all the legitimacy of the payday loan industry.

------
rietta
Its hard to wrap my head around renting furniture and cloths. Most of the
pieces in my house are gifts from family, many are antiques and very
functional. Getting married and buying a house was all the excuse our families
needed to set us up. I know not everyone has this but many do. Saved a ton of
money vs buying new or renting.

~~~
dagw
When my wife and I bought a house we had to almost barricade the driveway to
prevent our families from dumping all their old 'junk' on us. While we do have
a bunch of stuff from our families, for us buying our furniture for our place
to make it like we wanted was an important part of making the house ours.

~~~
rietta
Understand! We lived by the motto "don't look a gift horse in the mouth". We
were quite cash poor after getting married and buying a house in the same year
:-)

------
tehjoker
I love not having money and therefore paying extra for the convenience of
having the items required for basic dignity in decent condition in the richest
country on earth.

------
whatshisface
This seems dangerous, like people are going to spend 100% of their paycheck
every month and get everything taken away from them if they go a week without
a job.

~~~
pembrook
Or on the flipside, I've got some contractor/consulting buddies who regularly
pull down $200/hr bouncing between Tech companies in the Bay Area and Seattle
and big banks in NYC.

Not owning anything allows you to go where the work is and keep your net worth
in assets that produce actual income (like index funds and bonds), instead of
sitting around collecting unemployment during a dry spell because you're
encumbered by your depreciating assets.

I'm sure some people will use this as a way to temporarily live beyond their
means...but it's not like Credit Cards don't enable this behavior already. The
US is the land of the free of course, where we allow the weak to be preyed
upon.

~~~
bitcoinmoney
400k/year doing what?

~~~
yibg
There are lots of stories (and also some info) on engineers working at FAANG
making ~$400k a year or up. Granted these are not your typical engineering
jobs, but they do exist and in not so insignificant numbers; say it's 1% of
engineers (made up number).

I am curious though as to the distribution of freelance / contract rates. Is
$200 / hour also 1% of engineers? More? Less? Financially for the same person
what's actually a better route? For someone that can get $400k a year at
google, is that better or worse than the contract route on average?

~~~
literallycancer
$200/hour definitely isn't the top 1%. On the other hand you could work at
FAANG and run a company as a side project, you could use some of your
connections there to get interesting contracts.

------
baroffoos
This is just another move from mega corps to tricking us in to paying a
subscription for everything and never owning anything. Owning pretty much
always ends up cheaper if you will have the item for a long time.

Renting only makes sense for short term needs. I don't need to buy expensive
equipment I only use once a year so renting that makes sense but for a couch
it makes far more sense to buy it outright and use it for 10+ years rather
than pay constantly for it.

I suspect that even this article itself is a hidden marketing move to change
social norms so people think renting is the cool new thing to show off.

~~~
dawhizkid
Well most of these companies are startups, not megacorps.

Just like everything you should do the math...if you only plan to live in a
city or apartment for 1-2 years then renting a furnished apartment (either
officially furnished or DIY with one of these startups) could make sense. The
alternative in my experience is buying a lot of cheap Ikea furniture that's a
pain to buy/put together/toss that may or may not come out to what you'd pay
renting much nicer furniture with assembly/delivery included both ways.

~~~
baroffoos
This article pushes the idea that this is not just for people planing to leave
soon but for anyone who wants to live the luxury life which is just
ridiculous. Also megacorps have been pushing for this as well, for example the
trend to pay a huge monthly fee for your phone and plan which forces you to
essentially buy a new phone every 2 years.

~~~
lotsofpulp
What definition of “force” are you using? What is stopping someone from
finishing paying the monthly cost of the phone after 2 years and then not
signing a new contract to lease a new phone?

Every single mobile provider in the US makes it clear how much mobile service
is if you want to pay for just the mobile network, or to lease the phone and
the mobile network. Apple offers a monthly payment plan that is equivalent in
cost to paying upfront for the same phone and AppleCare+.

All of the information is clearly available for the lease vs pay upfront, and
mobile network vs mobile network + phone calculation.

~~~
RandomBacon
> What definition...

The one that people who make poor financial decisions use.

The service providers didn't automatically drop your monthly rate after you
the subsidized phone was paid off, so people felt like they might as well get
a new phone since they were paying for it anyway.

> What is stopping...

Nothing except that people don't know any better.

Tell everyone you know (without being annoying) how much you pay for unlimited
by using a prepaid plan on your top-of-the-line phone. Maybe they'll start to
learn. I've already switched a few people, you can too.

~~~
lotsofpulp
That situation is pretty far from any useful definition of force, in my
opinion. If people are too lazy to do some basic arithmetic, that’s their
problem.

~~~
RandomBacon
Me too, unfortunately I know too many people who would call that being forced.

------
parrellel
Ah! Debt Peonage! Now for the clerical classes.

~~~
charlesism
The article really does read like propaganda to reposition “debt peonage” as
“aspirational debt peonage”

------
mrhektor
I think the trick is only owning assets that might appreciate in value.

I wouldn't want to own a car because the value of cars drops as soon as you
take the car out of the lot. But owning a house /apartment might be a good
idea if the market is relatively stable and you can actually afford it.

It also depends on lifestyle. For a person like me, who moves around a lot,
owning furniture for example doesn't make sense. The moving costs, maintenance
costs and so on are just a pain. I'd rather rent the furniture, or rent a
furnished place.

~~~
tialaramex
The house doesn't appreciate in value. You can tell because they do _make_
houses which don't appreciate in value. They're often called "mobile" homes
although in practice moving them is tremendously expensive and they'll most
likely be put up in one place and never leave. They don't appreciate because
the materials they are made from decay, needing ongoing maintenance or
reducing the value.

What actually does appreciate is _real property_ aka land. Because there will
only ever be a finite amount of that, and each parcel is in a particular place
and can't be moved. If everybody wants to live in Brisbane, or Guernsey, the
price of land there explodes because it simply isn't possible.

And even then, appreciation is driven by population. In a world where
population stops growing or even shrinks, prices for real property may fall in
most places.

------
seem_2211
This is a really interesting trend - and one that brings out some really
fascinating psychology in people and how they relate to money.

I am personally uncomfortable with the idea of renting clothing, and don't
like the idea of renting a bed or furniture, but am a big fan of renting a car
(Zipcar) and will probably rent ski gear for next years season.

Like most things, some people go all in, and decide to rent everything. But my
hunch would be that most people will find 1-2 things they don't want to
necessarily shell out full price for, and will rent for a bit, before probably
buying the gear themselves at some point.

------
drivingmenuts
This doesn’t sound like the worst idea ever. If you lose your income, just say
“come and get it” and you’ve significantly lowered the cost of moving/finding
storage, etc. while you search for a new job.

I kinda wish I’d thought of this before a couple of bad years of the Universe
deciding it didn’t much like me much. I’m sort of back on my feet (employed)
but I don’t own much more than some minimal furniture, clothes, car and
computer gear. The rest could easily be filled by renting.

Most of the other things wouldn’t have much resale value anyway, if I bought
it outright.

~~~
pluma
Sure, I mean if you're unemployed, what's the use for furniture or a bed? And
it's inconceivable that you might remain unemployed for any extended duration
or not have savings (or sufficiently affluent relatives) to fall back on.

Pardon the sarcasm but I sincerely doubt you know what you're talking about if
your biggest worry was moving/storing/selling your furniture.

~~~
drivingmenuts
My biggest worry was trying to find a job followed by what do I do with all
this stuff when I got evicted. By that point, I didn’t have savings left and
no family to fall back on. I slept on an air mattress for the best part of a
year in a borrowed room of a very kind (mostly) stranger.

I got through it, but I do not want to ever be in a position again where I
have to watch my stuff get given away because it’s old crappy stuff that can’t
be sold for food money.

By renting, I can have a few nice things and when I can’t, we’ll, too bad, but
I need that money for something else, like food or medecine.

~~~
pluma
Then your mistake is just thinking you'll end up in a financially better
position by renting. Companies do things because they are profitable.

Also, I don't see how "being unable to sell your stuff because it's crappy and
old and having to give it away for free" is worse than "being unable to sell
your stuff because it didn't belong to you in the first place and is taken
away as soon as you lapse a payment". Except of course in the former case some
other poor person might still get some use out of the old and crappy stuff and
in the other case some company is taking the (relatively new) thing and likely
just shredding it.

~~~
drivingmenuts
Honestly, at the time I was concerned with surviving the next weeks, rather
than worrying if some poor person could have used it. From where I sat, merely
being poor would have been an improvement.

Renting means being potentially being able to ditch payments while you still
have at least some money to survive on, if you can recognize that is a
possibility.

I’m skittish now. The moment the paycheck stops, for some reason beyond my
control, I’m dropping everything unnecessary to survival and paring down to
being able to live in a closet, if necessary.

------
m463
This might be more interesting if there was more competition and prices were
more inline with the cost of purchasing.

It might be I don't understand the costs though. Is renting furniture or
clothing like leasing a car, or is it more expensive (or less expensive)?

~~~
rhexs
A decent couch from crate and barrel probably goes for 800-1200 or so. At
50/month for a couch, you’d pay the cost to buy it outright in two years. It
would also be interesting to see what they charge for any stains/damage. Is
“normal wear and tear” a thing or do they use the landlords definition of
“anything I think I can get away with”.

Math looks a bit better if you do long distance moves constantly.

Not a frugal option in any sense, but if you have plenty of disposable income
and value minimalism and simple moves, sure, why not.

Edit - Couch pricing a bit off (looks like they’re around 1500-2000, but I
doubt they’re renting things at that quality and I’m sure furniture has some
fantastic bulk pricing) Probably paid off in 2.5/3 years of renting.

------
EGreg
Here is my thinking:

I want to rent, not own. And that includes a home, at least until I have a
family.

Why? Besides the optionality of moving, or not worrying about flooding etc.
Lots of things are not necessary to be exclusively owned by you, anyway, like
a car that you park every day to collectively take up tons of space on city
roads.

It’s because every time you buy something you invest in it. That’s money you
could have invested elsewhere (opportunity cost).

Say you had $100K in 2011. You could either:

A) Make a down payment on a house, live in it, and keep buildng equity in it

B) Do that, but rent out the house to another person and use the money to rent
anywhere else

C) Rent the house you live in and invest in Bitcoin instead

Guess which strategy would have had you far far ahead.

C is better than B which is better than A.

And that’s why I _prefer_ to rent. Decouple orthogonal things: using and
investing.

------
stunt
After successfully implementing the illusion of control, we want to implement
the illusion of wealth now. A good way to make more money!

I'm not against the concept. But I'm not fully sold. The subscription model is
great for many things but not everything. Companies are seeing this as a new
opportunity and they're driving their marketing strategies around it by
selling a subscription model to everything.

------
nnone
Capitalist Utopia: Work your whole life, to own nothing. So you will continue
to work for us because of the fear of losing everything (we rented to you).

~~~
vinceguidry
Capitalism can't work without consumers, and consumerism can't work unless you
can convince consumers they're better off as a cog in a machine. What
capitalism degrades into when this doesn't happen isn't communism but rather
mercantilism, or, if there isn't enough economic activity for even that,
feudalism. And no one wants that.

I didn't realize how this could work until I looked at my own life and
realized I would rather be an IC than a manager.

I still want to own my own means of production and earn economic freedom, but
on my own terms. If I can't get it on my own terms, being a cog in someone
else's machine isn't really all that bad.

Reframed this way, it's less a battle of haves vs have nots and more a
cooperative project to make more for all. Ultimately capitalism has to find a
way to incorporate the best parts of communism.

~~~
justsomeguy3591
> I didn't realize how this could work until I looked at my own life and
> realized I would rather be an IC than a manager.

Maybe a dumb question, but what is an IC in this context?

~~~
vinceguidry
Individual contributor. Works great for me because I was never much of a
joiner. My faith gets broken too easily.

~~~
justsomeguy3591
That makes sense. Definitely feel like I'm adopting a similar mindset myself.

------
suff
Renting everything means you go from managing dozens of objects to dozens of
contracts. Imagine managing acceptable use, wear and tear, cost depreciation,
return dates, rate increases, and of course your time to manage this is
counted as zero in the cost model. Sounds like a nightmare.

