
Ask HN: How do you trust people? - 19eightyfour
About four years ago I started working on a startup and got some investment from relatives. After we hit our first milestone, the relatives reneged on their handshake commitment, and demanded more control, coupled with less outlay on their part. I didn&#x27;t comply and it took me along time to process what happened. The most shocking thing for me was that I considered these people family, yet they behaved so treacherously. I couldn&#x27;t accept it and lived in denial for a while, until I finally saw the truth that I couldn&#x27;t even trust my own family.<p>Description Continued in comment....
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19eightyfour
... A year or so later, I had developed a good relationship with some
important operations people in this space, and while there were no commitments
there was a custom of quid pro quo. I felt I could trust these people, since
they had helped me out so many times. Then my business started to eat into the
profits of a competitor, who, unbeknown to me, also had some sort of agreement
with these folks. It was clear to me that there was a win win where we could
all resolve to get what we wanted and I proposed we reach consensus. Instead
of engaging on that, my former partners stonewalled and hired private
investigators to try to pressure me into accepting a bad deal. I didn't comply
and eventually prevailed, and it took me a long time to process what happened.
The most shocking thing for me was that these people who I had built up such a
good relationship with tried to betray and hurt me. I couldn't accept it had
happened, and I lived in denial, continuing to extend them an olive branch,
much longer than it probably worked for me to do so.

Around the same time, it was revealed that my partner who I had a formal
agreement with, had known for years, trusted and considered family, had
actually gone behind my back, while lying to my face, and began working with
the former partners above, to make a deal for herself, to undermine my
position from the inside.

Three big betrayals in as many years. By people who I had considered family
and the ones I could actually trust. It has been very hard to deal with.
Particularly hard was I remembered a time when I actually trusted people and I
felt strong and life was good. But as soon as I showed some signs of weakness,
it was like everyone I had been close to suddenly piled on to take advantage
of it. It really felt like kicking me while I was down, by those whom I
considered I could trust with everything.

But I still think of trust as something important, so my question is how do
you handle betrayal by your inner circle, and how do you trust people, any
people, not necessarily the betrayers, after you've known it?

~~~
smt88
1\. Never mix business with family or friendship. Ever.

2\. Get a good lawyer and sign airtight contracts. Leave nothing to trust.

~~~
ageyfman
1\. PG specifically writes this in his Startup FAQ
(www.paulgraham.com/startupfaq.html) "Most successful startups have more than
one founder, and usually the founders seem to have been friends for at least a
year before starting the company."

2\. Yes.

~~~
romanovcode
Friend that you know for a year is not your brother/sister/uncle etc..

------
jaggederest
You put yourself in a position to be bilked, and you got bilked. You need to
not work on "handshake commitments" or "no commitments".

On a personal level, I find that simply accepting that people will hurt you,
and deciding whether or not being an open, trusting person is worth the harm
that might occur (I happen to think it is).

Limit the amount and degree of 'credit' you give people to what you can
equanimously accept as a loss, expect people to occasionally violate that
trust, plan for it, and understand that it is simply one of the costs of being
a decent human being.

I never loan a book, I only give them away. If people later give them back,
that's wonderful but not required. I don't ever let someone borrow something I
wouldn't give them as a gift on the spot. In business, you either have full
control, a negotiated agreement (which should cover things like how to make
decisions when you disagree), or you're just a passenger along for the ride.

~~~
19eightyfour
Thank you, paragraphs 2 & 3 are useful

------
majkinetor
You can't.

People minds are dynamic systems. Even if you trust a human now, you can never
be sure what changes will occur in the future to make that human choose
differently then expected based on previous experience - child sickness,
family troubles, hormonal disturbances, environmental toxicity, parasites,
whatever really ... anything can influence human behavior in radical manner.

Notice that time here is relevant. Given small enough time scale, you can
definitely trust people. And vice-versa.

So, the question is not how to trust people, because you can't trust anybody
given enough time, the question is how to plan things in your life so that
broken trust isn't detrimental for your status.

~~~
19eightyfour
Thanks, this is useful

------
Mz
Let me suggest you read some good negotiating books. "Getting to Yes" is
research-based and a quick read. "The Mind and Heart of the Negotiator" is
also research-based, but meatier.

There was an episode of some kid's show where there were two women who saw the
future. The one who saw only bad outcomes was very happy because any time
things went better than that, it was a pleasant surprise. The one who saw only
good outcomes was miserable. She was constantly disappointed by life. It never
lived up to her expectations.

So, I basically try to be the person who sees the bad outcomes in advance and
then gets to be pleasantly surprised when it goes better than that. That isn't
entirely accurate. I don't mean that I assume that all people are dreadful,
but I do assume that people will tend to act in their own self interest, even
if that means hurting me.

But I do try allow for the possibility of being pleasantly surprised. There
are ways you can ruin the whole thing by hanging your crap on other people and
signaling to them what rat bastards you assume them to be. So, don't go around
TELLING everyone you expect them to be awful, but do be aware it is a possible
outcome and account for it, to the best of your ability.

Also, trust is earned. People need to prove their trustworthiness. That is
nothing you should give away too cheaply. You can observe how they act and
make some inferences about how they are likely to act in the future based on
past behavior. You can also "test" people by entrusting smaller things to them
and see what they do with that before putting larger things on the table. It
needs to be something genuine. You need to have some real skin in the game.
But make sure to limit how much of your hide they can take if it goes south,
until their actions show you they will protect your hide, even under difficult
circumstances.

~~~
19eightyfour
Thank you, this is useful

------
sssilver
I do very long trips across multiple borders on a motorcycle, and on my way I
try to meet as many people as I can. Counterintuitively, something about that
really teaches you to trust people in a profound way. It may be that the
motorcycle is making you come across less threatening, since you're obviously
much less comfortable and in a more dangerous position than others, so perhaps
it brings out the instinct to be kind and compassionate where normally people
are cautious, competitive, and defensive. But it's a good exercise of
experiencing how good the vast majority of humans are deep inside.

~~~
19eightyfour
Thanks

------
NicenJehr
I've been lucky enough to only be burned financially once, and the lesson I
took away was simply, require a written contract.

You can find a lot of similar stories and advice on stackexchange:
[https://money.stackexchange.com/questions?sort=votes](https://money.stackexchange.com/questions?sort=votes)

------
dharmon
If you want a friend, get a dog. It's a cliche at this point, but don't rely
on business partners to be "friends". It sounds cynical, but it actually makes
life smoother for all parties involved.

~~~
19eightyfour
Thanks, useful

------
lumberjack
I think you're expecting too much of people.

I don't trust anyone but my parents to put me before their financial self
interest. I don't even trust my siblings to do the same, and we aren't on bad
terms, either.

The only reason they wouldn't "betray" you is if they saw more long term value
in being in your good graces. It's not that they hate you. It's that they love
themselves more than they care about you.

A close family friend is a notary dealing in family estates. From what I can
tell about human nature, whenever there is money involved, people fight.
Fighting between siblings over inheritance is basically the norm, something to
be expected. Same goes for business partnerships where two friends decide they
will own a restaurant together. And if they manage to not end up fighting,
their families will when one of them dies. Something else to keep in mind.

------
elchief
Start small, not with a mission-critical investment or commitment. Build as
you go. Go with someone with roots in the community and something to lose

I recently got fucked over by an ex-GF then long-time friend. Good Canadian
girl. Daughter of a preacher. It can be hard to judge someone's character

~~~
19eightyfour
Thanks

------
ImTalking
Trust is earned, so at the beginning you give people the benefit of the doubt
and you have 'faith' that they are trustworthy. But don't call it trust. Trust
takes time.

And regarding your 3 unfortunate betrayals, just remember: people can justify
anything.

------
brador
Money can change people. Especially when it's a life changing amount.

------
Spooky23
From my POV:

\- Friends and family don't mix with business. Their perception of what
happens will be different than yours.

\- Handshakes are only as valuable as mutual self-interest. If you're doing
business and need to hold people accountable, you need written contracts.

A friend is someone whom you have a mutual emotional attachment with. That
connection is between you as individuals, not your business. To be successful
in business relationships means that you need to be willing to walk away.

------
extempore
"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you
run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."

On a site like this most replies will take you at face value and try to
comfort you. Alternative take: you are the common factor in all these supposed
betrayals. If we asked the others, do you think we'd get different
perspectives on what happened?

~~~
jrowley
I had the exact same response after reading OPs post. I'd love to hear the
other parties perspectives.

~~~
19eightyfour
I didn't come here to out anyone, just to get some advice on how I recover
from this emotionally and on strategies for protecting myself in future.

I've paraphrased the descriptions of the other people involved to protect
their exact identities and relationships with me. The exact details reveal the
worser extent of the betrayals.

I'm not going to out them here because it's not considerate of me to make the
choice on their behalf, to expose who they are on HN.

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tyingq
I sympathize with the situation in general, but I'm not getting why you feel
your relatives were treacherous.

It sounds like they regretted the verbal only, "handshake" investment, and
wanted something in writing. That actually seems prudent. Is there more to
that part of the story?

