
One of the Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Working with the FBI - chollida1
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/salvadorhernandez/family-tree-dna-fbi-investigative-genealogy-privacy
======
apo
Few people taking theses tests understand or care about the privacy-destroying
effect of what they're doing to themselves and their families.

For example, this is from the AncestryDNA (different company) terms of
service:

 _By submitting User Provided Content to AncestryDNA, you grant AncestryDNA
and the Ancestry Group Companies a perpetual, royalty-free, worldwide,
sublicensable, transferable license to host, transfer, process, analyze,
distribute, communicate, and display your submission for the purposes of
providing Ancestry 's products and services, conducting Ancestry’s research
and product development, enhancing Ancestry’s user experience, and making and
offering personalized products and services._

[https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/dnaterms_2017_09_22_us?hid...](https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/dnaterms_2017_09_22_us?hideHeader=1#Term3)

There's a feel-good statement elsewhere in the document about how the company
won't disclose your info to third parties, but this grant of rights pretty
much covers anything you'd want to do with a DNA sequence.

Privacy policies change, but grants of rights like this to a service like
Ancestry are forever.

I imagine a future in which every casual DNA company has been hoovered into a
single powerful corporation. All those rights granted by users will transfer
to that new company. That company will be just as mean as Facebook (or
Microsoft in its heyday), but 10x more powerful.

~~~
kilo_bravo_3
>what they're doing to themselves and their families.

This only encourages me. My DNA is on record in various places, and if any
relative of mine commits a crime I want the honor of being the person who
fucked them and sent them to prison. I would tout the event as an esteemed
accomplishment.

Everyone seems to be worried about a sci-fi movie where clones are made from
cheek swabs or corporations use DNA to deny certain services.

The former is a pipe dream and the latter is already (partially) illegal in
the US via the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2008.

If evilmegacorp is going to break the law today then they'll break it tomorrow
as well.

Every conceivable scenario in which DNA can be used to harm an individual can
be answered with "well a bad actor can already do that today using different
methods".

As far as I'm concerned a database of DNA is no different than a database of
mugshots or fingerprints.

Mugshots and fingerprints have both led to false-positives being reported.

"Oh but DNA might lead to a false-positive so it must never be used" differs
little from "eyewitness testimony, mugshots, fingerprint analysis,
confessions, and every single investigative technique ever used in the history
of humanity has unassailably led to false positives therefore they should all
be banned".

~~~
kaybe
As a German, I see many problems with this point of view. What is a crime can
change fast, and it can also mean just being of the wrong group. Don't think
it can't and won't happen again.

~~~
CamperBob2
Exactly. People who proudly tell you that they have nothing to hide never seem
to understand that _they_ aren't the ones who decide whether or not they have
something to hide.

------
LinuxBender
The term "At Home" is very disingenuous. Spitting in a tube at home and then
mailing your DNA to a lab is not At Home. A proper at-home test would be a kit
that allows you to decode your DNA at home without a single strand DNA or byte
of data landing on a system that does not belong to you.

~~~
colordrops
How long until this is feasible? I've heard of DNA sequencing machines for
$2k, but are not easy or reliable.

~~~
LinuxBender
I would gladly pay $2k to keep my data at home. To me, that is much cheaper
than what it would cost to remove genetic data from multiple corporations and
governments, if that is even feasible.

~~~
make3
a genome is useless without a huge set of algorithms and datasets to analyse
the genome

~~~
LinuxBender
Agreed. That needs to be open source code, checked into a public repo with
instructions that the average person can follow.

After a few years, I would expect that code to run on the device that
enumerates the DNA.

Perhaps a RasPi with a daughter card or USB device that reads the DNA, similar
to blood sugar testers.

------
wonderwonder
I am torn on this, as on the one hand it does violate privacy to a very large
degree and provide massive power to the government. Things I am very much
against.

On the other hand, essentially all this does is provide law enforcement a
means to potentially quickly identify violent criminals via physical traits as
opposed to the contents of their mind such as forcing someone to unlock a
phone which I am very against.

Assuming DNA technology is advanced enough to provide few false positives
(which I am not sure it is) and prosecution is based on additional concrete
evidence as well I think I am fine with this. I am not ok with this being
accepted as all that is needed to bring charges but as a means to narrow the
suspect pool.

If the company did not disclose this in massive font to potential customers
ahead of time, then I do think this company should very quickly go out of
business.

The slippery slope though is a near Gattaca situation where now law
enforcement and government can screen people for genetics flaws and make
hiring decisions etc. based on them. Private companies should absolutely have
no access to this data unless it is for scientific research and highly
anonymized and customers have agreed to allow it.

~~~
twoquestions
`law enforcement a means to potentially quickly identify violent criminals`

Go ahead and replace "law enforcement" with political group you don't like,
and "violent criminals" for a group you do.

~~~
RcouF1uZ4gsC
With regards to political groups, what would DNA tell you that their Facebook
profile and network wouldn't?

~~~
ChuckMcM
Who their relatives are. One tool of political assassination is to out the
<some bad thing> sibling of the { conservative | liberal } party candidate.

~~~
RcouF1uZ4gsC
I would think that if they had any connection with them, there would be a
Facebook link. If there is not even a Facebook connection, I doubt that the
fact that a politician has <some bad thing> sibling that they don't really
keep in touch with is going to be a big deal.

~~~
harlanlewis
Oh, what a blissful #fakenews-less reality that would be.

------
mimixco
All of the at-home DNA testing companies include this in their license
agreements, including the ability to use your DNA in case any of your
_relatives_ might be accused of a crime.

This is one case in which you definitely want to read the license before you
sign up... then throw that test tube in the trash!

~~~
rabboRubble
I know I'm not a serial rapist &/or murderer.

I hope my family members are not. The question is: what do I value more? A
society without serial rapist killers or my family? I guess I prefer a society
without that sort of nonsense, so even if my DNA is used to ensnare a
relative, and they were doing horrible stuff, I'd be heartbroken that a family
member had gone so astray but grateful they were unable to hurt anybody else.

See the investigative work using shirttail relative DNA to isolate the Golden
State Killer.

That said, do I want law enforcement to have willy nilly access to DNA to, for
example, chase down littering? No, IMO that is an inappropriate level of
intrusion for the societal problem. Do I trust government to exercise good
sense with these tools? I fear not so much. But I guess we will get used to
the intrusions just as we have become accustom to the gov hoovering up all our
communications metadata to find terrorists.

~~~
whatshisface
> _The question is: what do I value more? A society without serial rapist
> killers or my family?_

I would got for option three, a society without false positives, and
especially not a false positive because someone's naive uncle involuntarily
submitted the entire family for testing.

------
keyme
Of all "dystopian future" things that are now becoming a reality, this is IMHO
the most disturbing.

There is nothing you can do about it as a privacy conscious person. Some
random relative will give their DNA up at some point or another. Then you're
fucked forever.

------
winston_smith
Better yet, all 50 US states have government-run newborn heel prick programs,
and they keep the blood. [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-biobank-dna-
babies-w...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-biobank-dna-babies-who-
has-access/)

It's cartoonishly evil. The government literally takes and stores the blood of
all newborn infants.

There's a good thing they do with it, which is screening for genetic diseases,
and some epidemiology. But there's nothing preventing them doing all that
without tying it to each newborn's identity.

The doctors are stupid about it, but very few are going to forcibly take a
blood sample from an infant while you protest and film it with your phone. And
they'll give you horror stories and guilt trips about all the awful diseases
your infant might have if you skip the test.

But fortunately the Mayo Clinic Labs have a test they can mail to your doctor
that you can use instead: [https://www.mayocliniclabs.com/test-
info/newborn/index.html](https://www.mayocliniclabs.com/test-
info/newborn/index.html)

Better plan it in advance though, and don't let the doctors put you off.
Because once baby arrives, you'll be tired and the doctors will use all kinds
of time pressure on you.

------
philipkglass
Whole genome sequencing is now available for well under $1000 and prices
continue to drop.

[https://us.dantelabs.com/blogs/news/whole-genome-
sequencing-...](https://us.dantelabs.com/blogs/news/whole-genome-sequencing-
cost)

I understand that forensic DNA comparisons are currently simpler and more
error-prone, but it seems like whole-genome comparison is already cheap enough
that it _could_ be used for comparing suspect DNA with crime scene DNA in
important cases. At some point I expect it to become the new standard.

The "what about flawed DNA matches?" arguments against using this technology
in law enforcement raise valid concerns, but I think that these specific
objections may be obsolete in a few more years.

------
est31
To my knowledge, in California, a genetic sample has to be recovered and
stored of every baby born? The archive is run by the state government. So why
do they not use this registry that they already have full control over, but
the data from the DNA company?

~~~
refurb
I don’t believe that test does the same level of sequencing that 23andMe does.

It basically tests for a few dozen genetic diseases. Diseases where if it’s
caught early, the child has a chance at curtailing the negative consequences
of the disease (they don’t test for diseases with no treatments).

~~~
est31
Indeed it doesn't do the same level of sequencing. But the specimen is not
being thrown away after the test, but kept in an archive. In some states like
California you can revoke consent at least.

See the list of states with how long they store the specimens here:
[https://www.cchfreedom.org/files/files/Newborn%20Retention%2...](https://www.cchfreedom.org/files/files/Newborn%20Retention%20All%2050%20States%202018.pdf)

Governments might use this archive to sequence the DNAs down the road and then
use it similarly to how they are already using those private services. Prices
of sequencing are sinking as we speak.

~~~
refurb
Fair point about keeping the samples!

------
module0000
If this bothers you, consider fighting back. Submit as many DNA samples to as
many firms as you can find. Send each sample from a different [consenting]
donor, and ask that they do the same and include you among their donors. This
action at scale dirties the data sets of all the companies involved.

~~~
mrmuagi
I don't think that plan follows awfully well, why on earth would you pay money
for services for the sole intent to game their database into inefficiency? A
spotted chance of that even working, at best you've given them money for
nothing back. No, it's best to just spread the word amongst your friends, and
avoid all this muck.

~~~
bigodbiel
noise in the system?

~~~
mrmuagi
I'm just advocating for the simpler and less costlier solution, speak with
your wallet and remove yourself as data from the system, and encourage others.

Definitely don't send any money to these companies, as that's a lost game
already.

------
samstave
A user in /r/conspiracy posted the other day their school is offering free dna
tests:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/alwd5r/my_high_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/alwd5r/my_high_school_offers_ancestory_dna_testing_for/)

------
hatchnyc
It seems inevitable that nearly everyone's DNA will eventually be disclosed or
available to sufficiently interested parties. You literally leave a trail of
DNA behind you, the cost of collecting it has steadily fallen, and you can't
change your DNA so a single security breech in your entire life is
irrevocable.

------
daemonk
I remember attending a bioinformatics conference years ago when Nanopore
presented one of their first devices. For those who are not in the field,
Nanopore offers a palm sized device that can sequence DNA in real-time as the
strand moves through a small pore. They are still far from offering a device
that is accurate enough to identify people.

During the presentation, images of public places vacuuming up biological
material and sequencing whatever DNA material found came to my mind. The
privacy implications of this is potentially very scary.

------
weego
It's bad but not unexpected, overreach is what these people do. Day to do
though everyone should be far more scared of Insurance companies getting hold
of their DNA test results.

~~~
astura
In the US GINA bans health insurance companies from using genetic data for
determining premiums or eligibility.

If it were legal you wouldn't have to worry about insurance companies mining
genetic databases, it wouldn't matter, they'd simply demand a DNA sample in
order to be insured.

~~~
howard941
GINA's effective -- now. But what if it goes the way of the endangered
preexisting condition exclusion? Parties are already chopping pieces of that
latter protection away under the guise of short term policies.

~~~
astura
GINA was voted into law 509-1 (Ron Paul being the sole dissenter), it was
hardly controversial.

>what if it goes the way of the endangered preexisting condition exclusion?

Then insurance companies will simply demand DNA to be insured. Same way car
insurance companies demand financial information (through credit bureaus) in
order to insure you in places where it's legal to do so (which is the vast
majority of the US save 1-2 states).

So either way you don't have to worry about insurance companies mining private
databases, if GINA exists they can't legally and if GINA doesn't exist they'll
just do the data collection themselves.

~~~
howard941
Legally of course you're right, and I suspect you already know about the
Medical Information Bureau's repository of adverse health info used right now.

Where we'd part company I guess is in seeing an equivalency of consequences in
the lack of car as compared to the lack of health insurance.

------
wnevets
I almost did one of this test because I was curious about the results.
Ultimately I decided that giving my DNA to a some random company on the
internet is just a bad idea, even if (a big if at that) the results are
accurate and interesting.

Stories like these are why I'm glad I decided not to.

------
laylomo2
A bit hyperbolic, but not completely inconceivable: Long lost twins separated
at birth, one twin murders somebody, the other twin gets his DNA tested, FBI
says "we found him", guy goes to jail for crime he never committed. Oops

~~~
y_tho
Replace murder with art heist:
[http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1887111,00...](http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1887111,00.html)
With a "happier" ending.

------
gamesbrainiac
Are there any similar reports regarding 23andme? I know quite a few people who
have used their service.

~~~
checkoutmygenes
We do not do this at 23andMe: [https://www.23andme.com/transparency-
report/](https://www.23andme.com/transparency-report/)

------
madrox
I’m of two minds on this. On the one hand, catching the golden state killer is
awesome.

On the other, DNA matching is a stochastic process. False positive matches are
possible, and likely if used to identify suspects at scale with no other
evidence or links to the crime.

We’re probably still in the infancy of DNA-based law, I suspect.

------
bouncycastle
I bet if there was an option to voluntarily enable this, many people would say
yes! eg. "Do you want us to use your data to help catch criminals / rescue
those wrongly accused?"

Same way as asking "Do you want to be an organ donor?".

------
aiyodev
The NSA collects the records of everyone two connections away from a terrorism
suspect.

This will allow the FBI to profile the families of criminals. I have a cousin
who joined a white supremecist group. Does that mean my life ahould be put
under a microscope in case I’m committing crimes too? Should I have to submit
to body cavity searches at airports because of her drug convictions?

Our prison system is not designed to punish or rehabilitate. It’s designed to
isolate society’s undesireables and put them in a cage away from the rest of
us. The Powers That Be would like nothing more than to extend that to entire
families.

------
superfamicom
I would gladly donate my DNA to be tested to find criminals. I signed up to
23andMe years ago just for fun, but if that data can be used to help someone
who was hurt by someone genetically related to me, I am all for it.

Reading the reactions here makes me feel crazy, as if their intention is to
make me feel manipulated or otherwise bad. It is really interesting to me how
many people are fearful of dystopian futures that could play out instead of
excited to actually potentially help identify a serial killer.

~~~
jessaustin
The intent is to encourage you to consider the relative incidence rates of
various misfortunes. Police ineptitude and the prosecutor's fallacy are vastly
more common in this world than serial killers are. You seem eager to screw
over your cousin, but it could just as well be you who is screwed over.

~~~
oh_sigh
Serial killing is the extreme example, but is police ineptitude and
prosecutor's fallacy more common in this world than rape, murder, assault and
battery, burglary, etc?

~~~
jessaustin
How could this question really be answered? You'd have to trust those whose
unworthiness to that trust forms the question's very premise. Police and
prosecutors couldn't be all that effective, since their ultimate argument seen
here amounts to little more than an extortion threat: _If we aren 't all-
powerful, someone might get raped!_ Those who wish to avoid crimes equip
themselves to stop criminals, rather than afflicting the rest of us with
counterproductive attempts to further empower those in authority.

Crime is a quality of society. All human societies will see some level of
crime, but there is a great deal of variation. A sick society in which the
police are powerful will simply see more crimes committed by police. A healthy
society will see fewer crimes, no matter how many police quit for more
productive occupations.

------
djsumdog
Wait a second, I though these companies didn't sequence DNA. I thought most of
them just ran your DNA against known patterns to see if they patch to give you
a probably/percentage of ancestry, with all the original samples being
destroyed:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3EEmVfbKNs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3EEmVfbKNs)

Does ancestry actually sample and save entire DNA sequences (I guess they have
to in order to do family tree matching)?

Crazy.

------
throwawaywtfvjk
I just submitted my DNA for testing, and was more than happy to do so. I
believe, that for me knowing MY genetic predispositions about certain diseases
AND do something about it (even paying a premium for insurance) far outweighs
the privacy concerns while you slowly die without targeted medical/lifestyle
interventions.

~~~
throwawaywtfvjk
Also, I would be glad if an insurance existed that was based on keeping
certain metabolic/blood markers in a healthy range. which translates to a
decrease of 30-75-ish % of chance of death by
cardiovascular/neurodegenerative/cancer.

an insurance like this would certainly cost less

------
dc443
Speaking of which. I sent two samples to 23andme and both times they rejected
my sample saying that there was not enough DNA to recover. Hopefully that is
in fact what happened......

They did send me a refund though.

I really really dont like the idea of someone potentially having my DNA while
I didn't even get my end of the bargain (dietary recommendations, possibly
knowing what will likely kill me, etc)

------
umeshunni
Article from a year ago about this:
[https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/danvergano/serial-
kille...](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/danvergano/serial-killer-dna-
testing?bfsource=relatedmanual)

Edit: nevermind, this is a different company

~~~
Paul-ish
The article you linked is about GEDmatch and the golden state killer. This one
is about Family tree DNA.

------
AnonymousRider
These issues usually have a benign beginning. “We only do this for violent
crimes” seems reasonable but it will never stay benign. Cops are lazy. Give
them a tool and they will eventually use it to catch shoplifters and graffiti
artists or to inquire about the heredity of their girlfriends.

------
buboard
> a private firm has agreed to voluntarily allow law enforcement access to its
> database.

I mean, nothing says that it was voluntary. In any case this should not be
surprising. Everyone who uses these services knows that they ll be
fingerprinted. Hopefully, one day we'll have private, home sequencers.

------
gammateam
It is interesting how the crowd - as in relatives - are helping solve violent
crime cases, from DNA at the scene.

I think a lot of people have been taking advantage of this system for a long
time. Like they know they get a free pass on assaulting people because they
haven't been arrested yet.

------
resters
This is a major violation of trust.

------
hugh4life
I disagree with this. Over time GEDMatch will get enough samples for forensic
purposes. I'd rather have an incentive program to get people to upload their
data onto GEDMatch than to have the government work with the commercial
companies.

------
TomK32
Haha. I'd never send my DNA away. But then I have to hope that one of my
cousins and distant half-siblings does. Well, in the EU privacy laws might
hold up a few more year but we're all doomed.

------
hi41
What problems can arise when law enforcement agencies are able to match DNA to
catch criminals such as rapists and murderers? Wouldn’t that bring benefits to
society and make it safer.

------
Simon_says
I'm interested in sequencing my own DNA, but only if the information never
leaves my possession. I'd like to do it once the cost goes below $1k. Any idea
when that will be realistic?

------
pfdietz
I suspect some of the strained objections to this is from MRA types who are
aghast that women will use this to track down unknown fathers for child
support.

------
yters
I figured that's why the ads encourage people to have their grandparents
tested. One grandparent, and you've got a whole family group.

------
scruffyherder
Whenever you see the governments touting this 'public private partnership'
this is exactly what it is.

------
rb808
I think that government agencies should have everyones DNA.

Esp rape I'm really surprised police can't just look at the semen and look up
who it belonged to. The government already knows everyone's photos and basic
biometrics from drivers licenses and passports, surely this is just one more
field in the database.

------
trumped
How does an at-home dna testing company get any of your infoemation?

~~~
newscracker
Only the sample collection is “at home” using a kit mailed to the customer
with instructions on how to collect the sample. The analysis is done in a
(hopefully good and clean) lab where the sample gets mailed to by the
customer.

------
vbuwivbiu
in a few years every phone will have a DNA sequencer included

~~~
ttflee
and you need to spit saliva to unlock?

------
tobyhinloopen
“We value your privacy. Please let us track you.”

No

------
thereare5lights
How many people here complain about authoritarian governments and yet support
this mass surveillance via DNA?

------
EGreg
This is why I would want to send in other people’s DNA to be tested and they
send in mine (like a bitcoin mixer).

------
JoeAltmaier
Fewer than 10 cases apparently

------
coupdejarnac
Anyone know if there is a way to remove yourself from being shared with 3rd
parties?

~~~
buboard
fbi seems a third party that's hard to remove

~~~
coupdejarnac
Thanks for your input.

------
willart4food
George Orwell is saying: DA FUQ?

------
Iwan-Zotow
Jesus, unDNA me!

------
odorousrex
I really can't tell if we are headed towards a "1984" dystopia, a "Brave New
World" dystopia, a Black Mirror "Nosedive" dystopia, or now a "GATTACA"
dystopia.

It seems like we're headed to a horrible hybrid combination of all of the
above.

~~~
dymk
I don't mean this in a seriously snarky tone, but: What you're saying has been
said by every generation which experienced great leaps in technology.

Why is _this_ wave of technology, one less transformative than the invention
of the printing press or transistor or nuclear bombs (none of which lead to
ruin), going to be the one that leads to a dystopia?

~~~
awakeasleep
I think you bring up an interesting point. For those of us who are employed in
the darling industry of our time, in the most liberal societies, who manage
our money well, and are not related to anyone undesirable, this will not be a
dystopia, it'll be paradise!

~~~
fcarraldo
It would be beneficial to your friends and family, and probably your own
quality of life, to start considering whether those who do not meet the above
criteria should be subject to oppression, while those privileged by birth and
wealth live in paradise.

------
ashelmire
One step closer to Gattaca every day.

------
hitpointdrew
Shocker /s

Anyone who thinks that the data at these testing companies isn't going to the
FBI/NSA (directly or indirectly) is just plain naive.

