
Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here - danilocampos
Recently an ugly and short-sighted essay about teens posting on HN hit the frontpage and was later killed.<p>I'd like to take a moment to point out how important it is that we encourage young people who take the time and ego risk to share their work.<p>"I am [age] and I made [thing]"<p>actually means<p>"I am new at this. I know you guys aren't. I want you to check it out and give me encouragement and guidance."<p>Do they want attention? Of course! They believe, correctly, that the attention of more experienced people will lead to their growth. We should absolutely give it to them.<p>Getting young people into science and technology is the single greatest professional duty any technologist has. We need help. The problems are so many and the minds equipped for them so few.<p>We have an entire planet of dumb objects waiting to be woken up. We need software written and interfaces designed for classes of products we can't even imagine yet.<p>So we need kids to grow up and choose the very, very hard work of learning to bend technology to their will. We need them to believe they can make careers out of it.<p>And we certainly need them to believe that when they get there, they won't be surrounded by assholes.<p>When a kid shows up sharing their work, we ought to circle around them and hoist them on our shoulders. They're choosing the career that will make our lives better one day. They're choosing the career that will broaden our hiring pools one day. They're, blessedly, choosing tech over drugs, drink, violence and investment banking.<p>When a teenager comes shuffling along, awkwardly holding up his or her project for our scrutiny, take a moment and see if there's any experience of your own that you can offer to help them on their journey. If there isn't, move along quietly and let the mentors do their thing, eh?<p>Young folks: I don't know a lot, but if you want career advice or tech advice or just someone to talk to, I'm mail@danilocampos.com.
======
kyro
That blog article was one of the stupidest things I've ever read.

I never got the encouragement or support to pursue my hobbies at a young age,
whether from parents or friends, and would've _killed_ to have a community
like this that could've praised me and pushed me forward.

To accuse a kid mentioning the fact that he's 14 in his submission title as
being manipulative really reflects on how out of touch you are with the way
humans operate. A kid his age is looking to show off his work, proud that he's
not wasting his time on Power Rangers and Nerf guns, putting his focus and
attention to furthering his meaningful hobbies. You encourage that, not
dismiss him.

Time and time again, it's just remarkable to me how socially inept the lot of
you are. When your child comes up to you and exclaims "Daddy, Daddy! Look what
I've done!", you sure as hell aren't going to say "Heh, yeah, I did that too,
but I was _younger_."

~~~
mhurron
We're not these children's daddies though, are we? Did you run up to every
adult expecting praise? Did they give it to you?

This is a group of, by and large, professionals. They are going to look at it
in a critical light. If you want critical feedback, this is the forum to show
it to. If you want coddling and nothing but positive reinforcement, stick with
your parents, teachers and friends.

~~~
ckrailo
Positive reinforcement and pleasant feedback are how people grow, not some
type of angry neckbeard behavior. Everybody knows the professionals are
superior, so we ought to kindly and gently nudge the newcomers to the same
level of excellence.

~~~
mhurron
First: Praise given always is meaningless.

Second: Criticism is not always 'angry'

Third: Consider dealing with the crass criticism as a life lesson.

Fourth: Mindless praise is not going to help you grow

Fifth: How you present something will often determine the type of response you
get.

You are going to leave kindergarten some day, the world isn't all gold stars.
You are going to have to deal with people giving a critical analysis of what
you're doing. That is what will make you better, not endless back-patting.

~~~
jtheory
There's a nasty illogic to this sequence, but I see it all the time.

A. "The world isn't all gold stars" (a.k.a. "it's a dog-eat-dog world out
there", or "there are a lot of hardasses out there", etc.), THEREFORE

B. I'm _personally_ not going to pull any punches for this
naive/hopeful/idealistic/etc. young person.

This isn't logic; it's a weak rationalization for being an asshole, because
there's a certain pleasure to being an asshole and cutting others down to
size.

Is there really just a black/white choice between "crass criticism" and
"mindless praise"?

Of course not. What about this: filter whatever critique you have to offer
down to what's useful to a 14 year old (or whatever they are), and present it
with kindness.

~~~
niggler
I've seen the following happen way too often: from a young age, kids are told
they are child prodigies and maintain top status in high school. Then they
enter college and meet people who are more intelligent or proficient and can't
seem to accept the reality of the situation.

As an example, there was one section of organic chemistry for freshmen, and to
get into that class you had to have a 5 in AP chem and pass two exams. I saw
many of my classmates (Columbia) who were genuinely taken aback that they
weren't the top of the freshman class -- and many of these self-styled rock
stars never heard of the IChO!

It is better for long term growth if kids are humbled at an earlier age than
to be shocked much later in life. And holding back criticisms now really does
a disservice later in life.

~~~
jtheory
Here's the line that makes me really uneasy about what you're saying:

> It is better for long term growth if kids are humbled at an earlier age

You don't _humble_ a kid. That's not an action any person needs to take, ever.
Instead, you _expose_ them to the wonderful things in the world, and they will
learn humility and be inspired and motivated at the same time.

If you "humble" them instead, they may learn humility, at the same time as
they learn how shitty some adults are, and you seriously fuck with their
motivation and inspiration.

I'm aware this may not be quite what you meant; maybe I'm reading too much
into your wording.

But while I agree that false praise is bad ("kids are told they are
prodigies"), the solution isn't to cut them down; it's to show them more of
what's possible (and of course, replace the false praise with simple
recognition of how their hard work is paying off, noticing improvement, etc.).

You want to build a drive for self-improvement in them; not convince them
they're already at the pinnacle (as if anyone ever is...), nor convince them
that they're currently worthless compared to the best (because it's not a
competition) -- just notice how they're getting better at climbing, show how
it's making their skills/lives/etc. better, and help them along.

~~~
niggler
You are reading too much into my wording -- kids are humbled in multiple ways,
and in my specific example humbling happens when they meet other exemplary
people. It's not about cutting down people to size, but rather reframing their
understanding of what is possible.

~~~
jtheory
Thanks; I agree totally with that. The important thing is that this can be
really misleading:

> And holding back criticisms now really does a disservice later in life.

Holding back criticism isn't the problem; their limited understanding of the
world is. Once you name the problem, the best solutions look quite different;
there's no need to tell them their work is low-to-mediocre; they'll be saying
it themselves (but with a drive to improve).

There are also still people who will be nasty to kids with the idea of
"toughening them up"; this is crap as well (kids can better deal with shitty
behavior if they have a solid idea of what is _non_ shitty behavior, and if
they haven't been traumatized into having intense emotional responses in
conflict), but I don't have time to get into that in depth here....

------
vishnumenon
As the author of the "ugly and short-sighted essay" in question, I want to
just mention that I meant no hard feelings to anyone of any age, and tried
hard to critique the behavior, not the person, Sorry if it came across as
ugly. However, I stand by my opinion. I believe that there are plenty of other
places these teens can go for blanket approval and yes-men, such as friends
and family. HN is, to me, reserved for unbiased and fair commentary. As an
aside, I think everyone's post should be considered carefully and encouraged;
however, it shouldn't be based on age. Also, in response to those who raised
comments about how Mozart's age was relevant to his accomplishments, I must
say that in our day and age, teens making apps is hardly that noteworthy
anymore. Yes, it is impressive, but not exceptionally so.

Lastly, why exactly was my original post killed? What happened to it? I may
not understand HN fully, but I thought something that fostered a good
discussion would be kept. I can't even find the post anymore! Would it have
stayed up if I had said I was 16?

~~~
goostavos
Would you post the link here? I would be interesting in reading your specific
arguments.

The only issue I really take with the "I'm 14 and check out my first [x]," is
that some of them feel a little suspect. Hell, I stumbled upon one of the "I'm
15 and.." guys astroturfing his thread. He neglected to change accounts, and
so he gave a glowing review about how great the game was, and how awesome the
it is that he's doing this at his age... all from the same account he used to
post the link. When I pointed this out to him, everything was quickly deleted.

Maybe I'm letting one bad apple spoil everything, but I feel that some
percentage of the "I'm young, check out this really mediocre, yet ad supported
thing I made" are in fact, just some older guy's weekend passive income
experiment.

~~~
dfabulich
It's [http://vishnumenon.com/2013/01/21/im-35-months-old-and-i-
mad...](http://vishnumenon.com/2013/01/21/im-35-months-old-and-i-made-this-
cool-app/)

~~~
goostavos
Thanks for the link! After reading through it, I don't feel there was anything
"ugly and short-sighted" about it. OP was being way over dramatic.

On a tech centered website such as Hacker News, it seems a perfectly
reasonable position to ask someone not to rely on an emotional manipulation to
get page views.

~~~
danilocampos
You need to have a pathological lack of empathy to view these matters as
"emotional manipulation."

~~~
goostavos
Ah, thank you for your internet diagnosis. I suppose it is possible that I
suffer from a "pathological lack of empathy," or, you may just be over
reacting to the word "manipulate." So, let's sub in a different phrasing so
you don't take it so harshly.

"On a tech centered website such as Hacker News, it seems a perfectly
reasonable position to ask someone not to appeal to emotion in an attempt to
garner page views and/or karma"

~~~
danilocampos
> "On a tech centered website such as Hacker News, it seems a perfectly
> reasonable position to ask someone not to appeal to emotion in an attempt to
> garner page views and/or karma"

This is bordering on deliberate obtuseness. This is not a matter of appealing
to emotion. This appealing to experience and asking for guidance during a
fragile period of development.

In a "tech-centered" _community_ , we should do our best to nurture young
people who want to follow in our footsteps. I simply have no respect for
anyone who can't see the value in that. It's the worst kind of childish, self-
centered worldview.

~~~
goostavos
Oh, I just realized that your OP.. _That_ makes a little more sense...

>I simply have no respect for anyone who can't see the value in that. It's the
worst kind of childish, self-centered worldview.

I stand by my original statement of your tendency toward hyperbole.

It's fine that you feel the need to be all high and mighty about this, and
tout on about your various respect hierarchies and where others fall into
them, but at the end of the day, you're really wetting your pants over
nothing. Honestly, I think you just lack reading comprehension, or maybe you
just want attention yourself? However, I will refrain from internet diagnosing
you.

You know what the other guy's post said? You should really re-read it. It said
they should come as equals and be judged accordingly. There you go; That's
pretty much the summary. Whether or not you agree with it, is that position
__really __as ugly as you make it, or are you simply overreacting? Did it
really warrant calling him out in a public forum? I understand white-
knighting, and "Won't someone think of the frail, helpless children!"
mentality, but Jesus, man..

One guy says, "Don't coddle them."

You say, "That guy is childish and selfish! Coddle them"

There's the summary of this thread. Calm down, my man. Difference of opinion
does not an asshole make.

~~~
danilocampos
> Difference of opinion does not an asshole make.

On this we agree. That's not what makes the asshole.

> I think you just lack reading comprehension

> coddle them

If you think advocating mentorship over hostility is me wanting to "coddle"
people, you've got a lot of nerve throwing around phrases like "reading
comprehension."

~~~
goostavos
Welp, I think I'm going to cut it off here. Clearly we're not getting through
to each other, and I prefer to do my mindless arguing on other websites.

I urge you to read through his posting again (slowly). You're phrasing (or
closer, shoehorning) his article and your response as a mentorship versus
hostility debate, but it feels a bit straw-man-ish misrepresentation to me.
Let's keep shifting the other author's position to the "evil" side.

Though, again, perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe it _was_ a "terrible," "ugly," and
(now apparently) "hostile" article. However, you'd need to point out the
directly hostile parts to me, in that case. Because I missed them.

>That's not what makes the asshole.

Oh, _you._ So cheeky.

------
joshmlewis
I'm 19, and I can give credit to a couple forums (The Web Squeeze and Forrst)
and Hacker News for making me successful. If it weren't for a handful of
people out of the buckets of everyone, I wouldn't have had the encouragement
or motivation to be where I am today. I skipped college, and am cofounding my
second company now and leading a team of talented people. I would have never
guessed I'd be doing that..even two years ago. If it weren't for you guys and
other forums giving me critique, criticism, and encouragement, who knows where
I'd be. I've learned soo much from HN, it's ridiculous, but it has helped me
in more ways than I can acknowledge.

Anyone can be an encouragement to someone like a younger me, but a lot of
people don't. The ones who do however can really make a difference in peoples
lives.

~~~
gfodor
Congrats on your success. One piece of advice: you can further reduce the
chance that you have blind spots due to your skipping of college (which you
almost certainly do) by slicing off some time to go through Coursera classes,
particularly ones that are a bit far afield and seem like a waste of time.
People your age are so damn lucky :)

The thing about college is it forces exposure to stuff you'd never see
otherwise. A lot of it is irreplaceable but more and more of it _is_ thanks to
sites like these.

~~~
msutherl
Great advice. The most important thing to understand about life is that you
don't know what you don't know!

Put negatively, if you're not interested in further educating yourself outside
of your direct interest areas, understand that you will have certain
limitations in life that you will not yourself perceive.

------
ddunkin
How about we leave age/sex/race out of it all and accept them into the
community as peers and equals?

I'm all about encouragement, but if we treat them differently because of age,
we are just sheltering them from the real world (the Internet hardly counts
there, I know). The Internet may not be the safest place to be taught how to
accept criticism, but it is a lot easier to take (and more productive) when
the attacks aren't personal and instead directed at an app.

~~~
danilocampos
> How about we leave age/sex/race out of it all and accept them into the
> community as peers and equals?

How about because it's not that simple? Being a teenager is fraught with
insecurity, loneliness and the perception of being misunderstood. Lots of
their maturity is still cooking.

The teen years are also very formative. So if we can take an extra moment to
give them the right nudge early in their trajectory, the final outcome of that
tiny investment of time could be huge.

If things about a shared project are crappy, that's worth mentioning, of
course. That can and should be done in a way that's constructive and
encouraging, though.

I don't like the idea of a community that's too self-important to indulge the
ambitious fragility of youth.

~~~
freshhawk
I agree but have one nagging doubt that won't go away. Is it really ridiculous
to want one "adults only" community of professional peers that isn't invite-
only or purposefully hard to find?

I find it enormously fulfilling to mentor younger programmers and have luckily
had many chances to do so. But my personal development always suffered at
those places compared to the places where I was working mostly with those near
my level or above it.

An online community can't serve two masters, it is either mainly for peer
discussion (and elitist) or it is mainly beginner friendly. Beginner friendly
often wins out because: "won't somebody please think of the children" is a
discussion ender.

------
davidw
Why not be supportive and friendly to everyone? I always find the "say it to
their face" rule is a good one for formulating even negative comments. Rather
than channeling your inner comic book guy, it helps you think of how to state
something unpleasant in a constructive, polite way.

~~~
danilocampos
Absolutely.

But it's worth making a special effort for the young. As I told a teen poster
below:

Someone helping me with a project is nice. Someone helping you with a project
is an investment in the future. My neuroplasticity wanes with every passing
year. Your mind remains limber. I am encumbered by obligations and debts,
limiting my flexibility. You have infinitely more options.

Helping you is just a better bet than helping me. You're still on the
launchpad, fuel tank still full. If there's something simple, like an
encouraging comment or a thoughtful correction, that can be done to help you
meet a wonderful trajectory, we should absolutely do it.

------
luisivan
I can't agree more.

I started my first project, Asturix, a Linux distribution, at age 12. I have
found all kind of complications, most of them related with being young.

I live in Spain, where there are a lot of prejudices against youth. Also, the
educational system here doesn't empower any "21 century" value such as
creativity or inspiration. Fortunately, the situation is changing thanks to
the media and other young entrepreneurs and I are starting to be famous in
Spain.

On the other hand, working and studying in Spain at the same time is really,
really, really hard. Oh, and we have a youth unemployment rate of 54%.

Right now I'm 17 and have founded a couple companies, what has been really
hard due to legal issues - creating a company in Spain being underage is
practically illegal. I have also started an incubator for hackers from 12 to
18 so they can create their projects in a easier way.

This is a beautiful age for discovering your passion, but if people screw you
out it can be a difficult one.

The talent is there, but we have to let it grow.

------
lifeisstillgood
Memo to self:

Make mentoring site (hackernewsmentor.com) Where old and weary can openly
agree certain SLAs With the young and enthusiastic

If more of us see it publically more of us will be encouraged to answer a
months worth of questions on perl

As for me - I could have done with a mentor not for technical issues - but for
the life and career choices I made badly twenty years ago - but I would only
have take. Advice from someone whom I technically respected.

~~~
jayferd
I'm in. Let me know when you get started with this, I'll help build it.

~~~
kveykva
I'd definitely help as well if I could be of any use.

------
Cogito
Should age be included in a post's _title_? In most cases, the age can be
disclosed in the comments without losing any information, and in the process
removing any 'negative' connotations.

I posted something on the thread that started this whole dance a day or so
ago, however it probably merits further expansion.

Most arguments that are 'pro' age disclosure boil down to "We should treat
younger members of the community differently". This comes in many forms, like
how we should be supportive, how we should mentor the next generation, and how
teenagers are often insecure.

I agree with them, at least in general.

Arguments 'against' age disclosure have a few flavours; some say that we
should treat posts based on merit, that we should not discriminate based on
age, but mostly it comes down to "Posts with the age in the title are 'gaming'
the system (purposefully or not)" and the meta-argument that such posts
encourage talking about community instead of the post.

I agree with this side as well.

The thing is, placing your age in the _title_ of your post is link-baity. It
may be unintentional or it may be coolly calculated, but in most cases if you
remove that piece of information the post title is entirely uninteresting.

So we have two types of posts to consider. The first are those posts where the
age of the person involved contributes to how _interesting the post is to HN_.
A completely fabricated example: "12 year-old entrepreneur youngest funded by
YC".

The second type of post are those where the age of the person involved
contributes to how _the HN community responds to the post_. A young
developer's first app would fall into this category.

In the first case, I believe this is useful information to have in the post
title. In the second this is useful information, however I do not believe it
is useful in the post _title_. For these posts, I would much rather see the
age included as a comment on the post.

In any post that use of age in the title gets called out for being 'link-
baity', 'manipulative' or 'gaming the system' the main counterargument is that
knowing the age helps the community know how to respond to the post. The age
can be removed from the post title, and placed in the comments, addressing
both major concerns.

[edit] improved summary.

~~~
DanBC
I'm pretty sure that you do not think the correct response to a title
including an age is to rant at the poster, to be rude and aggressive.

It's possible to express dissatisfaction with a title and to encourage better
posting habits without being a jerk. I agree with your summary.

The problem isn't with HN being jerks to young people. The problem is with HN
being jerks to anyone.

~~~
Cogito
I agree that the correct response is definitely not being rude and aggressive,
and that is true in pretty much every situation anyone ever comes across.

The main problem I think we have is that posts will continue to be 'link-
baity' and some of those will be related to age. Each time one of these hits
the front page the community will need to respond to it, and for the near
future that response seems likely to be a reignition of this debate.

How do we educate 'drive-by-posters' who create an account simply to post an
article (potentially with a link-bait title)? Is it up to moderators to change
the title? Users to flag it? Should we just keep arguing about age in post
titles?

I don't know the answer, but I think reasonable application of the posting
guidelines is appropriate, and for me that means keeping the post title as
relevant as possible. Most of the time, the age of the poster/developer is not
relevant enough to be in the post title.

------
jacquesm
It's not just the blog article. It's also the attitude of people that will
berate a youngster for being young and going out on a limb to show what
they've made and making the mistake of telling us their age. That age thing is
not a qualifier of pride, it's a guide to the mental state and the amount of
experience the poster has. What amazes me most is that after seeing how one
young developer gets treated that the next one still dares to post at all.

Danilocampos is exactly right. As far as career advice or tech advice, if you
think I can contribute _regardless of age_ feel free to contact me as well,
j@ww.com . I can't promise to always be immediately available but I'll do my
best.

------
devonbarrett
As a 17 year old, I disagree, regardless of age, if someone creates or does
something that is considered impressive, they should receive credit based upon
that - not because of an arbitrary number that supposedly relates to their
ability.

~~~
danilocampos
Then I shall congratulate you for being well-encouraged and thick skinned in
your world already. For everyone else lacking such good fortune, though, it
would be nice if we could err on the side of being welcoming, rather than
hostile.

~~~
devonbarrett
I agree with you on that, but I also think, why should that not be extended to
everyone no matter what age?

~~~
danilocampos
Because it is a grand human tradition to show extra kindness, attention and
indulgence to the young, that they might be equipped to build a better world.

Someone helping me with a project is nice. Someone helping you with a project
is an investment in the future. My neuroplasticity wanes with every passing
year. Your mind remains limber. I am encumbered by obligations and debts,
limiting my flexibility. You have infinitely more options.

Helping you is just a better bet than helping me. You're still on the
launchpad, fuel tank still full. If there's something simple, like an
encouraging comment or a thoughtful correction, that can be done to help you
meet a wonderful trajectory, we should absolutely do it.

------
ktrgardiner
I think announcing your young age alongside your project is important because
it opens up more opportunities for others to guide you and help fuel your
passion and talent. Without the age, people will assume that the creator is
old enough to know what they enjoy and what they want to pursue. But with the
age, you'll have people with more experience saying "Since you obviously like
X, you should look into Y and Z. Here are some great resources on those
topics." Advice like that is invaluable and we should encourage scenarios that
result in it.

~~~
ruswick
The issue is that most posts that announce one's age don't result in guidance.
They result in a chorus of "good jobs" that, although nice, don't offer any
real constructive advice.

I've always postulated that one would get more actionable advice and sincere
criticism if they did not include their age, and that age merely lowers the
bar and dilutes the value of the discussion.

Including one's age might result in comments that make the poster feel better,
but they won't make him code better.

~~~
ktrgardiner
That is very true. But that's on us for being disingenuous and watering
ourselves down; not on the kids for revealing their age.

------
qzxt
If this is in relation to [http://vishnumenon.com/2013/01/21/im-35-months-old-
and-i-mad...](http://vishnumenon.com/2013/01/21/im-35-months-old-and-i-made-
this-cool-app/) then I think you miss the point. I agree with the author of
that and it is the most common sense post I've read, so far, regarding this
issue. The reality is people posting their age doesn't simply mean "I am new
at this. I know you guys aren't. I want you to check it out and give me
encouragement and guidance." Simultaneously the people throwing out the "age
is irrelevant" argument simply miss the point, also. I'm 19 and I've been
programming for as long as I can remember starting with my shitty commodore64
hand-me-down. Along the years I have received much criticism and help and am
immensely grateful to the people who took the time out to answer every
question I had, trivial and otherwise - and believe me, there were plenty of
them. However the idea of constructive criticism on HN, and sadly, in the
hacker community at large is ironically more political than logical.
"Criticism" seems to be code for "I'm smarter than you and I'll be damned if I
don't make sure you know it." The hostility towards, not just kids, but
people's projects in general borders on the pathological and that's what needs
to be addressed. I wholeheartedly agree that kids who are building fun
projects do need that nudge and that encouragement to go deeper down the
rabbit hole, however we should indeed distinguish between encouragement and
patting on the back. The problem is the risk of creating a Hollywoood
mentality (Hollywood may be the bastion of acting but really most people are
more attracted to the prospects of fame than actual acting). We need to give
them encouragement that lets them enjoy the process, not just massaging their
egos, and moreover we need to get them to enjoy constructive criticism and see
it not as "boo-hoo they didn't like my stuff" but as "hmm I never thought
about that." The reality is, the poisonous, know-it-all, thinly veiled
political nature of our culture doesn't provide this.

~~~
danilocampos
That essay called mentioning age "manipulative," which is easily the most
jackasstic thing I've seen on the subject. Whatever valid point might have
been there was lost in the cold dismissiveness of the author's attitude.

~~~
qzxt
So is your point that he was incorrect in stating that a lot of people post
their age in order to get to the front page or that calling that action
manipulative is wrong? The thesis of the post seemed to me to be if you make a
product, focus on making the product better and everything else falls into
place. Very fair bit of advice if you ask me. Furthermore, it states another
related thing which is, how are you going to get any actual feedback when all
the comments are either calling you an asshole or rallying around you, singing
war cries. Now with regard to posting age, that's actually very variable why
people do that, and from an objective standpoint I don't find anything wrong
with that. However if what you're after is guidance then it's pretty obvious
posting your age isn't going to get you much of that.

~~~
danilocampos
Calling that action manipulative is inherently hostile. That's
counterproductive.

------
trishume
I'm 16 and Things I've written have made the front page twice, both times
without mentioning my age. As a teenager, it feels really good to make the
front page or #1 with no "omg they're young" bonus points.

Granted, it is encouraging to get bonus up votes for being young and achieving
something.

------
justjimmy
There is a reason why there is an age of consent, why there is a youth
criminal system, why there are age limits.

Some of you clearly lack empathy.

------
mmanfrin
Two cents: I worry that we run the risk of acquiring that awful trend of
reddit's to append some personal relation to every post (e.g. "My Brother did
this...", "My SO made me a cake", etc) which has become a terribly abused
trope.

The user account of the 14 year old kid who posted the Show HN that prompted
this was a brand new account. The App Author was listed under a different name
than the user account seemed to suggest. It screamed 'manipulation' to me.

I'm all for encouraging younger developers, but at a certain point you have to
step back and evaluate whether we're promoting things based on merit or a
sense of communal nepotism.

------
wuster
Agreed. I always make the time of day to talk to high school or college age
kids aspiring to be in engineering or the sciences. Paying it forward if you
will, because I got the same help when I was younger.

------
iuguy
I'm all for people shipping. Age isn't really a part of it. What I'm not all
for is people creating an account, posting the thing they're looking to
promote and only posting in that thread - otherwise completely disengaged with
the HN community.

You can argue that lurkers form part of that community. My counterpoint would
be that if you create a specific account and post the thing you're trying to
promote in the first 10 minutes, you haven't lurked enough.

Yes I know you can lurk without an account, but to reach the stage where
that's considered acceptable you have to travel through if they felt they
couldn't register an account for more than 5 minutes, if they felt they
couldn't comment and plenty of other ifs, yet somehow they can create an
account and post what they're promoting in 10 minutes, then only interact with
people in their thread?

Young people should be encouraged. Aaron Swartz was 14 when he worked on RSS.
But being young doesn't give you a free pass at being a spammer, and that's
what kicked this whole thing off.

------
pekk
Other people shouldn't get encouragement and guidance and tolerance for their
newness? Suggesting that you are an x years old child prodigy has become a
cheap way of getting front page. If we are going to be nice to new projects we
should be nice to them regardless of the claimed age of the author.

~~~
mcknz
I didn't read this as exclusionary -- it's just a shorthand way of saying how
much experience one has. Someone who is 35 could easily say "I have [X] number
of years using [technique/technology]."

If someone doesn't indicate age or experience, the default would be to treat
submissions or projects as the marketplace would.

------
ScottWhigham
_Getting young people into science and technology is the single greatest
professional duty any technologist has._

What? I don't understand this at all. The "single greatest professional duty
any technologist" has is unique to that "technologist". If, for example, I'm a
23yo kid who just graduated uni and in my first job, do you think for a second
that I give a #$(* about "getting young people into science and technology"?
Of course not. I'm so busy trying to figure basic life out that I don't have
time for that sort of thing.

If I'm a 33yo dad who wants to start my own business, I don't care one whit
about 'getting young people into science and technology' b/c, between working
60 hours a week and changing my kids' diapers, I'm sleeping.

Good for teens - glad for them - but this statement is just silly.

~~~
BlackJack
I'm a 19 year old and when I got into college I remember thinking that I would
love to interview prospective students after I graduated.

Maybe you don't care about mentoring young people, but there are certainly
many, many people who care a lot about that.

~~~
ScottWhigham
_Maybe you don't care about mentoring young people_

I carefully crafted my reply and for you to mistakenly read that into it made
me go back and re-read my reply. I don't see where you get that I say that I
"don't care about mentoring young people". Please take the time to point out
where/what part I seem to imply that I don't care about mentoring young
people. Actually, hell, I'll make it easier for you: point out where I state
my opinion about what I prefer at all.

Please - before you misquote, misunderstand, and then slag someone, take the
time to re-read what they've written. Maybe it's your reading comprehension
that was the problem rather than their post.

And besides, "there are certainly many, many people who care a lot about"
(insert anything ever here). There always has been and always will be. Stating
the obvious doesn't really help here.

~~~
BlackJack
The part that got me to think that was when you said:

> I don't care one whit about 'getting young people into science and
> technology

Sorry if I misunderstood, and maybe we're just arguing between "mentoring" and
"getting young people into tech," but I was referring to your sentiment as
opposed to some exact wording.

~~~
ScottWhigham
I think you need to check your ego and re-read what I wrote without an outside
bias. Maybe English isn't your first language and that's causing some block
for you - I don't know. But to yet again quote me out of context just
highlights how poor your reading comprehension is for a second time.

Protip: I'm not a 33yo dad who wants to start a business.

------
dragos2
I read a couple of days ago a blog post written by a 17 years old in which he
was stating a rather interesting fact. He was saying he prefers to omit
mentioning his age on forums and discussion boards (such as HN) because he
wants to be critiqued for his work regardless of his age.

I found that to be incredibly accurate. Most of the kids want to just show-off
their projects, but there are still a lot of them who want genuine critique.

So, if you want to get real opinions about your project and you post on HN or
reddit, you should put on your big boy pants.

------
dm8
I agree. Kids post their age to get attention. They want experienced devs to
take a look at their code/app/project. Lets help them! All you need to do is a
upvote or comment.

------
zmitri
In a lot of communities, the "this is my first post" is often celebrated. On
HN it definitely is not, which is kind of strange. Glad you put this out there
danilo.

~~~
olivier1664
Maybe a question of size. In a small communities, everybody knows everybody.
Here, it is not the case, we do not look the persons, just the result.

------
deluxaran
Age part should not be thrown away. There are lots of young people out there,
myself included, that are in need of advice, tips and help( even saying that
something I've done is wrong and bringing some arguments, suggestions and
whatever you thing it is useful is better than nothing, at least I know where
to start improving my skills and work)

------
jsonmez
Let's treat all fellow human beings this way. We are all kids at heart.

We are all seeking approval.

Why admonish or dismiss anyone? What good does it do?

I don't mean to diminish from your point, because I think it is absolutely
correct.

------
rhizome
It sounds like this was inspired by a single incident, so is this really as
large a problem as described? Also, for a fun game, replace the word
"attention" with "money."

~~~
danilocampos
This is an ongoing bad attitude, actually. This was just the latest example.
Kids who post their age often have their comments devolve into moronic
arguments about whether their age should really matter.

------
fizx
s/young/any/

------
dear
Who killed the thread?

------
kabirkumar
My name is Kabir, and I am looking for young, motivated, and passionate
individuals to help me with my great startup idea. If you are willing to talk,
shoot me an e-mail at; KabirKumar@me.com

Lets get to work!

~~~
dm8
Wrong place, wrong time. Better to learn the trade by yourself!

