
Linux Mint's Sobering Update: A Glimpse into the Personal Struggles Devs Face - abeger
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/04/08/linux-mint-sobering-update-developer-struggles-community/
======
AdmiralAsshat
Linux Mint seems to take a fairly regular beating from the Linux community at
large, and I'm not sure why. It became fashionable after their ISO downloads
were briefly compromised in 2016, and a popular LWN post became the script for
people to reiterate every time Mint is mentioned in any capacity.[0]

I think it's a terrible shame. For all the stuff I wish it did better, it does
so much _right_ that I still overwhelmingly consider it the best distro for
converting friends and family away from Windows or OSX, even if I don't use it
myself.

[0][https://lwn.net/Articles/676664/](https://lwn.net/Articles/676664/)

~~~
htns
It was fashionable long before that. IIRC Mint had an embarrassing start being
advertised as particularly secure (great for online banking!!) despite not
really offering anything good in that department.

~~~
onli
Mint was just weird back then. Ubuntu was so young and had so much things
going on, and then came Mint sipping a bit of that energy away. Some users
would end up in the Ubuntu support forum I was active at the time and mention
they use Mint, and we were like "why would you do that?" In my bubble it felt
like a diverging amateur approach (it felt, no idea about whether that was the
case) right at the wrong moment with misleading advertisement. That was still
very early days for Ubuntu, when users still had to be educated not to break
their system with strange and insecure tweak bash scripts downloaded from
other forums. And I'd argue it was also before one could understand why you'd
want to fork Ubuntu, before there were controversial decisions - especially
not with "we make the desktop easier!", Ubuntu was already doing that.

Later on Mint developed its own profile, this was way before Cinnamon.

------
bitL
To all Mint developers: THANK YOU!!!

I use Mint for over 5 years as my main OS and it allowed me to make a seamless
transition from Windows/macOS to Linux for everyday tasks, on high-end
hardware with multiple HiDPI monitors and including games with recent Steam
updates (thanks to Ubuntu + Valve as well!). I can't imagine being stuck with
Windows 10/macOS these days.

~~~
JudgeWapner
THANK YOU. I used it for 7 years, because I was sick of constantly tending to
my Gentoo install. I used LM because it Just Worked. I never had to think
about the OS, I could just focus on my work.

The biggest bug I had in 7 years of using it was my /boot partition filling up
because new kernel installs wouldn't delete the old kernels/initrd.img. Other
than that, it just worked. Thank you

~~~
saikatsg
What do you use now, looks like you don't use LM any more ;)

~~~
JudgeWapner
I use Arch. Kind of complex reasons, I guess. It wasn't that LM was deficient
in any way, just figured it was time to really dig in and understand what my
OS was doing. Arch has the best documentation, so I decided to switch to it.

~~~
O1111OOO
> Arch has the best documentation, so I decided to switch to it.

Not an Arch user but their documentation is amazing (small sample[0]). I toyed
with FreeBSD years ago and have never forgotten just how well documented the
entire system was too[1].

Well-written documentation (with plenty of real world examples) is severely
underappreciated in modern tech. It's not only empowering but it's just plain
fun getting under the hood.

[0]
[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/List_of_applications](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/List_of_applications)

[1]
[https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/c...](https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/consoles.html)

~~~
rsa4046
> Well-written documentation (with plenty of real world examples) is severely
> underappreciated in modern tech. It's not only empowering but it's just
> plain fun getting under the hood.

This can't be said enough. Complete, well-written, well-maintained
documentation is a key divide separating open- and closed-source. It's
expensive and time-consuming to produce — and absolutely essential. Trying to
understand how to access a critical setting that some UI wizard has hidden
from view in Windows? GLWT.

------
dessant
> We can get demotivated, uncertain, depressed even by negative reactions or
> interactions, and it can lead to developers stepping away from the project,
> taking a break or even leaving for good.

It truly is a struggle. I have a couple of projects with moderate numbers of
users, and between the "it doesn't work" private messages (not even mentioning
which project) and some abusive and entitled users, I do wonder sometimes what
would be the best way to protect ourselves as maintainers of open source
projects.

There are of course sensible users whom I truly appreciate, though encouraging
messages are easily drowned out by low quality support requests and negative
interactions.

We may step away for a while or cut off communication channels in order to
heal, but I don't see a real solution to this problem, other than to delegate
tasks so that abuse is spread out evenly between a team of maintainers.

~~~
rossdavidh
So, it seems like there is a potential way for a non-dev user to help out with
open source, here. Basically, if a person volunteers to be an intermediary,
reading the feedback and distilling it down to the relevant content (stripping
out the unproductive negativity), that could be useful. It would also be
emotionally easier to read harsh feedback, when it's not about _your_ work,
just the work of a product you use. Many open source projects have plenty of
non-dev users, who cannot really help out currently, but some of them might be
willing to if shown a good entry point.

Again, they wouldn't be blocking the feedback, just distilling it down to the
most relevant part (e.g. "your piece of sh*t update broke the f#$King feature
I depend on for my work!" becomes "newest update caused a regression in this
menu item").

Just an idea.

~~~
folex
While the idea is good and kind, it's not as easy as it seems.

That's called a support line, and it requires good understanding of the
project by non-dev support. That requires to educate someone about your
project, and maintain their knowledge to be up to date.

That's not an easy task even in commercial projects with a team of several
people, and ability to delegate, and requires a non-trivial skill of
leadership.

In other words, the project is very lucky to have such people. And while it
sometimes happen organically, it's hard to implement this intentionally.

~~~
shittyadmin
They don't necessarily need full knowledge of the product or any such thing,
they just need to be able to provide a sort of filter, remove anything
uselessly abusive or congratulatory without value, open defects for obvious
bugs with reproduction instructions and get users to dig in and provide useful
details when asking questions.

Those questions can then be answered directly by them or forwarded off to a
dev who will have more detail and be able to get answers faster without the
drudge of dealing with the rest of it.

Personally while working at a small company and doing both support and
development work, I found it helpful to simply tell customers we'd address
issues "with the development team" even when that meant I was going to work on
it. Drawing that line in the sand between support and development roles
compartmentalize those activities and reduces the immediacy of demand from
users.

------
Townley
> Beyond that, keep in mind that while donations keep Linux Mint and other
> distributions afloat, the occasional message of appreciation can be
> encouraging, and at times personally invaluable.

Exactly. This issue isn't just something that "maintainers deal with"; it's
also something that "users can help with".

The next time you install a library that makes your life easier, write someone
an email. Star the project on GitHub. Open up a "TODO: Keep Being Awesome"
ticket where others can show their gratitude.

Even if you don't have the skills or bandwidth to contribute to a project's
development, you can contribute to its morale.

~~~
Bartweiss
Thanks for this. I'm not sure I've ever done it with devs I don't know, but I
absolutely should - especially for small projects.

Come to think of it, there's one random package that quietly solved the most
mindbending pdf issues I've ever faced... Sounds like a good first person to
drop a thank you note to!

------
umvi
I wish people would realize that being kind gets you results 10x faster and
better than being mean/critical.

In my own experience I've had people tell me certain projects on GitHub are
complete garbage and criticized all the shortcomings of the tool compared to
other tools. It made me feel bad and want to take it down.

On the other hand, I've had users praise other projects and excitedly request
some missing features and that made me feel like a million bucks and I was
filled with motivation to improve the tool.

~~~
m-p-3
This is where you can tell them to go fork themselves ;)

Thank you for taking your time and knowledge to provide some open-source
tools! There's a lot of users out there that silently appreciate it.

------
swozey
I can't even imagine the stress from public comments that comes from working
on an open source operating system.

I don't use Mint but I'm hugely sympathetic to the devs who have to deal with
the backlash from, of all things, a logo and website design change that they
likely had little to no involvement with.

~~~
TheCondor
Opensource anything...

It’s not completely thankless, but the thanks seem to be mostly direct and
private and then you face public ridicule for errors, bugs, missteps or just
when people have different aesthetics or taste and don’t like your project.
There are so many “behind the scenes” sorts of projects too, stuff that
matters and isn’t quite as visible to the common end user.

I think of OpenSSL, the big security hole got more marketing and PR than the
project ever did with “heart bleed.” Then some of the comments during the
libressl review were very harsh. They did their thing in anonymity for
decades, got used by everything and then took a public beating; clearly it
depends on where the developers’ hearts are when that happened, maybe it
wasn't so bad, it felt bad to watch.

With something like mint, just about everything is subjective. There are going
to be a lot of haters just because of opinion.

~~~
fjp
Almost every python package that I've used seems to have Github "issues"
opened where someone asks "Why even do this when there's [insert similar but
different thing]". Who cares? Pip uninstall it if it isn't what you want? Fork
it if you want something slightly different? Or contribute to a productive
discussion about the direction of the project? Do SOMETHING positive.

------
ohiovr
Linux Mint is my main desktop operating system now after abandoning Windows
and MacOS. I tried Debian, Ubuntu, Open Suse, but settled on Mint because I
was familiar with Ubuntu and Mint feels traditional and polished.

Every day I see sad examples of eternal September's march to the written
abyss.

I had a dream of writing a significant open source project but the reality of
entitled user disruption, lack of clear economic benefit, lack of even
personal benefit makes me think its a terrible idea. I wrote a closed source
software that sells on the Apple app store. Despite nearly a million
Downloads, and thousands of reviews and some real money too, the level of
serious entitled bitchyness found everywhere in the open source world is non
existant with my product. I even sell it for $19.99 well above typical app
store prices.

I love open source, I wish I could contribute but as of now there are more
downs than ups.

~~~
MrTonyD
I ran my own company for a few years just to make money to stop working so I
could contribute to open source. By the time I finally made enough to not have
to worry about money anymore, I had spent enough years working with open
source to realize that big companies get great benefits (I was in meetings
with HP, IBM, and Oracle VPs where open source was being supported to transfer
responsibility and costs away from those companies.) At the same time, it is
Software Developers and associated staffs which lose income. There is also
less profit to invest in high quality documentation, training, support, and
research (ever notice how most open source companies didn't actually develop
the technology - they are just monetizing it through support or consulting?)

So I had the chance to live my dream - supporting our community through open
source - but realized that it was ultimately the wrong dream for our society.

~~~
ohiovr
Thank you for the story!

------
UweSchmidt
Now that I'm no longer super young, I am very much aware of the precious time
every day where I can do valuable, creative work (outside work). From this
subjective point of view I question if many open soure projects are truly
worth it.

Valuable activities would 1\. improve relevant, marketable skills 2\. bring
joy 3\. help improve the world 4\. make some money

It appears that many activities around maintaining a linux distro are mundane
chores, compared to the learning process of, say, studying security issues
deep inside the kernel. It certainly does not bring joy as reliable and
immediate as, say, switching off the computer and going outside for some
pickup basketball, and there are already plenty of linux distros out there,
with marginal differences and little impact general progress. Nothing needs to
be said regarding my #4.

So I will offer my unsolicited opintion: Life is short, focus your effort on
things that are really worth it.

------
arusahni
This touches on something I've seen in (some, not all) large open source
communities: the language used on a daily basis. The default tone is one
devoid of empathy or understanding.

> This update is shit.

or

> [new build gets published, person's pet bug doesn't get addressed] > The
> devs are lazy.

At what point did this sort of tone get normalized? I initially chalked it
down to non-native English speakers using verbiage from forums and IRC
channels, but over time I've observed that isn't the case.

~~~
sodosopa
While I'd like to blame this on gaming culture, this went on back in the
Usenet days too.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Hell is other people.

------
module0000
To the Mint guys: thanks! I don't use Mint, but I have in the past, and
hundreds(thousands?) of people try it each day. Packaging open source software
is a labor of love, and the community appreciates the work you are doing. No
one ever says "good job!" when it works, but they raise hell when it doesn't.

Keep doing what you are doing, because while you may not get to perceive it
often: people _really, really, really_ appreciate the fruits of your work!

------
vikingcaffiene
I would like to propose something that has long been simmering in my mind:
zero tolerance to toxicity from the open source community at large. Too often
I see entitled developers show up in these forums and just hurl abuse at the
people who provide these wonderful tools free of charge. I propose that, if
the request is anything less than respectful or if they, say DM a maintainer
with abuse or what have you, they get banned. Shoot I'd say they not even be
allowed to use the damn software anymore (although that would probably be
difficult to manage). If what I am proposing sounds impractical, thats because
it is but that doesn't mean we shouldn't start setting precedents. You don't
like the new Mint logo? Fine. Tell them but do so nicely. Shoot maybe offer up
something substantive and actionable. Whatever you do stop yelling things like
"new logo is terrible change it back NOW". There's no excuse for going after
someone to the point that THEY ARE CONSIDERING QUITTING MAKING THE SOFTWARE
YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT. We all know how hard this job is. We should be lifting
each other up and ejecting anyone with extreme prejudice who thinks that
treating people in this manner is ok. </rant>

~~~
dexen
_> zero tolerance to toxicity_

That's a straightforward path into irrelevance. Every user and developer has a
bad day or two; every user and developer has an obscure subject that riles
them up well beyond what's reasonable. Zero tolerance here means they do go
elsewhere, where quality of discussion is at maybe 90% instead of 100%, but at
least they can partake in the discussion. Lastly, assholes make for effective
leaders. Unfair? Maybe, but holds true through ages and cultures.

A perhaps contrived example, but here goes: email spam. We have complex
solutions to it, blacklists, whitelists, heuristics, whatnot, spread between
servers and mail clients. Some end-users may indeed be running zero-tolerance
rules, but by and large the system as whole is elastic. If you ever end up on
a spam shitlist, be it due to a mistake or actual malice, there's always a way
back. If the system was indeed geared for zero tolerance, it would be close to
useless, if for no other reason because it would be pretty easy to get
unsuspecting victims on a shitlist, dealing them permanent harm.

Coming to think of it, no system in wider society is truly _zero tolerance_ ,
except the death penalty - and that one is usually very heavily protested,
just as well as guarded against mistakes and abuses by several layers of
interleaved protections.

~~~
vikingcaffiene
I would respectfully ask you to re-read my comment. I did acknowledge that
zero-tolerance would be impractical (perhaps not as clearly as I should have)
but its the ideal to strive for. A sort of "shoot for the moon and hit the
stars" type thing. I think that we need to deter abuse in OSS as a whole.
Right now it's a way for developers to vent frustration into a faceless void
which is part of where the vitriol comes from I think.

To your point, I think also that practicality dictates an escalating type of
warning system such as we see in social networks. You mistreat developers in a
forum you get a warning about it, next you can't comment for 30 days, finally
you are just banned. If you send a direct message to a maintainer or the like
with abuse, you get immediately banned. Something like that. The point is,
it's not cool to abuse people who make you stuff for free that you use to earn
a living. Just a giant hell no.

And lastly, I would like to tell you that you are dead wrong about assholes
being effective leaders. Effective leaders are people who are right more often
than they are wrong. Effective leaders have vision. Effective leaders inspire
people to be better than themselves. If they also happen to be an asshole that
is in SPITE of their success. Not because of it.

------
doktrin
> Remember that these folks are pouring all of their energy into a free
> product, and remember that they're sensitive to how you perceive it.

I hope I live to see the day when the internet stops bringing out the worst in
us. The Linux community might not be as vitriolic as cesspools like gaming,
but some days it really isn't that far off.

~~~
z2
As someone who has published a free app for fun, I've learned that due to any
mix of entitlement and ignorance, anything you put out there can make some
people emotionally angry. I'm still learning how to move on and accept that
this is OK, for them and for me.

~~~
Insanity
Sorry you had to go through that!

I tend to ignore the negative feedback, and reply to the postive feedback
(with a simple thank you or something of the likes).

If you did something for fun, it doesn't really matter what people think. Just
keep doing stuff for fun, and kudos for putting it out there for others to
enjoy! Even if you get some people who don't like it, remember you did not do
it for them :-)

~~~
z2
Thank you! Overall it has been a positive experience :) This is my first time
dealing with 'the public' and I'm likely overdue for the lesson that one can
never (and shouldn't) make everybody happy.

------
justin66
The actual update can be viewed here:
[https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3736](https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3736)

------
heinrich5991
The donation graph is misleading IMO, it doesn't start at 0 on the y axis.

------
efqerqe54g545g1
Linux Mint MATE is awesome and runs really, really well on older laptops. I
have installed it for many newcomers to Linux and it has served these people
well.

~~~
muthdra
MATE is the supreme DE but the old i5 4Gb Vaio laptop I'm using runs Lubuntu
(both LXDE and LXQt versions) better.

------
geddy
I've been juggling the idea of switching _back_ to Linux Mint after running
Ubuntu on my dev machine for the past year. I used Mint on my main PC a few
years back and it was simply terrific - ultra fast and did everything as
needed.

Sometimes a change of scenery is great, in this case, this mean mention of
Mint makes me want to go back.

------
Scramblejams
If you like Mint -- and I do -- please consider supporting the devs through a
one-time donation or a Patreon monthly commitment:
[https://www.patreon.com/linux_mint/overview](https://www.patreon.com/linux_mint/overview)

------
simonblack
Mint Mate. It's spartan, but it just works.

------
obrisintor
As much as I think that Linux Mint is a distribution with great potential, I
don't want to support something that blatantly states that they don't want my
help or the help of anyone who supports Israel.

[http://abriefhistory.org/?p=774](http://abriefhistory.org/?p=774)

~~~
akoncius
which is fine I think. you are entitled to your own opinion/views, as they are
too.

------
unixhero
Love Mint.

