
Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2019? - askafriend
Inspired by the 2018 version here: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=17286939<p>I&#x27;m curious if there have been any new developments or changes in thinking since the sentiments expressed in that thread about a year ago.<p>Have the Pros and Cons changed much? Any new considerations? (e.g. Softbank, M&amp;A patterns, potentially looming economic slowdown)<p>In general, what do you think in 2019 HN?
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buf
I'm the head of engineering for a startup, was 3rd engineer at Eventbrite,
built my own startup valued >$1M, turned down 2 offers at Google. Been doing
startups 10+ years.

I do startups because I have a problem communicating my ideas in a way to
influence larger organizations to do the things that interest me. Simple as
that.

If I have a theory to move the needle, in a startup, I can do it, analyze it,
and launch it with very little buy-in, although my impact to an industry may
be less. In a BigCo, my impact on the industry may be more but the battle
isn't about product-market fit, it's about corporate alignment and buy-in
before I can even test product-market fit, which I just don't enjoy.

~~~
nojvek
This x 1000. At the end of the day, I get joy from building things that people
love. At a startup, there isn’t much in the way of making it happen if it
aligns with the vision of the startup.

At a big co, you’re mostly playing bigco politics and ass kissing to climb up
the career ladder.

I love startups and growth stage companies. There’s a ton of opportunities to
make impact and learn new things.

------
onion2k
It depends what your alternatives are.

This thread will fill up with comments saying start-ups won't pay as well as
Google et al, but that's only relavent if you can get hired by Google (and you
want to be). Comments that state "start-up wages are less than the best paying
tech jobs" aren't very useful.

If you can't get a job at Google then you need to compare a start-up role with
a job you can get. If that's a junior position in a small city tech co then
it's probable the start-up salary will actually be similar or possibly even
higher if it's done a round or two. And, if that's the case, the start-up is
going to be far more interesting, fast moving, and fun. Just don't join a
start-up thinking it'll make you rich because it (probably) won't.

~~~
mlthoughts2018
It’s not that start-ups don’t pay as well as Google, it’s that they don’t pay
as well as mid-range companies, like insurance companies, payroll tech
companies, auto manufacturers, newspapers, etc.

Start-ups are just other businesses. The relevant pool of peer companies to
consider for salary benchmarking is _all other companies your desired
candidate might work for_. Nobody cares about the funding situation, age, cool
new tech, meaningless options, or meaningless job titles. You just have to pay
competitive market salaries and benefits, period.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Yes, exactly! I don’t care about your mission or your “key values”. What’s the
comp? What are the benefits? That’s it.

~~~
mlthoughts2018
The other big problem is that start-ups will sweet talk you regarding freedom
to choose tooling, getting greater responsibility, etc., but none of that is
enforceable and subject to change on a whim.

You’ll go in believing you traded off some salary in order to get freedom or
seniority you wouldn’t get at a traditional company, but it’s just a big lie.
“Flexibility” will quickly give way to a bastardized “wear many hats” failure
mode where you are being grinded into a burnout by supporting a bunch of
shitty tooling with no capacity to hire people to handle the workload. You’ll
quickly find that growth start-ups == nobody gives a shit about craft or even
basic maintenance to keep a product healthy, they just want a small number of
overqualified, underpaid people to absorb that headache on a permanent triage
basis like employees are band-aids to constantly stop the bleeding.

~~~
toomuchtodo
So true.

------
scarmig
Not much of a change. It's still suboptimal from a financial point of view to
join an early stage startup: yes, you will be screwed out of the fruits of
your labor even on the off chance that your company hits a jackpot. There are
people much more sophisticated than you or I whose entire job is to figure out
how to steal equity from you.

To the extent there's been a change, the economics of startups and tech are
more precarious nowadays. GOOG and FB both have their business models under
significant threat, aside from cyclical concerns. And if a recession happens,
both they and companies at all stages will have substantially reduced budgets
for compensation. This means fewer jobs and more layoffs.

It's also more unclear nowadays what the next unicorn is. You're not going to
become a quick multimillionaire by joining Uber or AirBnB at this point--there
was awhile a couple years ago where they were a pretty reasonable choice to
maximize comp. No such candidates exist nowadays.

~~~
sanxiyn
The current Uber/Airbnb is, without question, ByteDance.

~~~
p1esk
Why is this downvoted?

------
spamizbad
Maybe I'm just looking at the past through rose-colored glasses, but I feel
like the golden years of startups are behind us. But I'll do my best anyway.

Pros:

1) Startups are still more willing to hire people with "nontraditional"
backgrounds into technical roles. English major who bootcamp'd or self-taught
yourself coding? Never attended college? Most startups aren't going to turn
their nose up at you.

2) Assuming the company has product-market fit (or is nearing it): A great way
to gain a holistic understanding of how software is made, delivered, consumed,
and ultimately changed based on market response. This is both a technical
_and_ business learning experience.

3) You won't be pigeon-holed, as everyone has to wear more than one hat in
startup land.

4) Doesn't apply to everyone, but if there's a particular niche you're into,
it's _much_ easier to get hired by one of those niche's startup's than to join
a bigger tech firm and then hope you get assigned to one of those groups
(which are probably highly competitive and extremely sought after... so good
luck with that.)

Cons:

1) They fail, sometimes spectacularly

2) They often operate at such a small scale that you'll never encounter entire
classes of interesting technical challenges

3) If it's early stage: You _will_ ship crap code. Constantly. Can be
frustrating if you're a perfectionist or even just looking to push your craft
forward

4) Equity offers are stingy, but even if they weren't, it can take 7-10 years
for a big exit. Will you stick around long enough?

5) Because these companies are small, any toxic people in the org will feel
omnipresent

6) There are now some fairly active "problematic" investors (Saudi Arabia).
You may not like the idea of taking so-called "Blood Money"

------
jypepin
My view is only a data point, but what I've observed is that while comp at
startups has not evolved much in the last 5 years (seeing roughly same
salaries + stock packages), total comp at later stage startups or bigger
companies has sky rocketed.

The comments on the 2018 post you mention are all still true and relevant
today.

My experience has proven than as an employee, joining a post series B will
usually be a better bet with if you want to have impact + leverage on stocks,
and joining a bigger company is the better bet if you want to maximise your
income.

Earlier startup are just as risky for a new employee than founders, but with
much less leverage, offsetting making it interesting.

~~~
ryanbrunner
I think one thing to consider with an early stage startup is the potential to
advance in terms of responsibility / role far more quickly than a large
company or even a post-series B company.

If you join a 20 person startup and are a good performer, it's not at all
unlikely that by the time the startup is at 60-70 people (which isn't going to
be a long time at all for a funded startup), there's a high likelihood that
you'll be in a director / manager / other senior position.

In terms of equity though, I'd say you should value your equity at 0, since
that's what it's overwhelmingly likely to be worth even in most positive
outcomes and only join if you're comfortable with your base comp.

~~~
badfrog
> If you join a 20 person startup and are a good performer, it's not at all
> unlikely that by the time the startup is at 60-70 people (which isn't going
> to be a long time at all for a funded startup), there's a high likelihood
> that you'll be in a director / manager / other senior position.

If you're looking at this from a compensation perspective, that's only helpful
if the company also starts paying competitive wages at that point. If you end
up wanting to switch to a big tech company as a director with only 3 years of
total experience, you'll probably be hired at L4 which you likely could have
gotten within a year if you started your career at that company.

Of course if you think you'll like the job and it's not a question of
compensation, then this can be a big benefit of startups.

------
sametmax
Start ups will give a chance to junior with a weak resume if he/she can
demonstrate skills. You may very well end up with a mission above your skill
set as well, and grow because of the challenge and responsability. Less
bureaucracy and smaller size also mean a quicker hiring process, direct access
to most interesting people in the company and a wide overview of the entire
product.

~~~
mlthoughts2018
Usually this is false. Startups are some of the most aggressive users of
whiteboard trivia, live coding, etc., to filter out candidates who don’t fit
precisely the mold of people desperate to work at FAANG companies.

~~~
sametmax
That seems to fit exactly what I said:

> Start ups will give a chance to junior with a weak resume if he/she can
> demonstrate skills.

They don't hire you on a resume, you need to demonstrate skills. Wether it's a
good way to do so is another matter.

I had interviews with startup not even asking for my resume, or testing my
skills. But I never had a startup getting me through many hoops in the hiring
process. 4 steps over a few months was the max, while FAANGs are known for
using more than 10 steps, dispatched over as long as a year.

~~~
mlthoughts2018
But whiteboarding / algo trivia are not activities which are capable of
demonstrating skill apart from rote memorization and superficial rapid pattern
matching.

~~~
sametmax
> Wether it's a good way to do so is another matter.

Do you really read the comments you answer to ?

~~~
mlthoughts2018
It’s not _a_ way. Nothing to do with bad vs good: it simply fails to satisfy
the properties the parent comment attributed.

------
vinayak147
I have tried recruiting many of my close friends from FAANG companies to my
well funded startup.

It starts with them talking about feeling miserable in their jobs and that
they badly want to quit.

I then ask them to try something new, join my (or another) startup (or another
company). Then they get paralyzed by the pros/cons of various options,
(salary, stock, commute, role, title etc. etc.) they end up not making any
changes at all and continue feeling dissatisfied.

I have come to believe that dwelling on these pros/cons doesn’t help anyone
and just causes analysis/paralysis related misery that is completely
unnecessary.

It is better to pick one thing and then focus 100% on making the most of it.
After a while, if you notice it has stopped giving you joy/learning/growth,
make a switch, try something different and again focus on making the most of
that.

Being clear in your head about what you want to do, why you want to do it and
aligning your actions/efforts 100% with that clarity is the most valuable
thing there is to have in life. The rest is noise.

------
avip
There are 3 potential reasons to join a startup:

    
    
      1. You're the founder
      2. You have no other choice
      3. You think it'll be fun
    
    

Just switch-case that.

~~~
joeblau
You need your default case :)

~~~
nojvek
You have no other choice should be the default case.

------
theshadowmonkey
I'd say in my experience, atleast in the Bay Area unless you are a co-founder,
dont bother joining an early stage or that's not as late stage as Airbnb or
Uber. The problem is the base salaries are good. But, startups try to be too
stingy with your equity valuing themselves at a pretty high valuation. IMO
putting in the hours for someone else and getting almost nothing in return is
not worth the effort. Saying this having worked at one of them for ~3 years.

~~~
xiphias2
Why did you work there for 3 years? Was there any particular reason why you
accepted bad terms?

~~~
Hydraulix989
A bunch of possible reasons:

\- A lot of people don't know what they are actually worth and undervalue
themselves

\- or they do not understand the caveats of things like dilution and classes
of stock

\- or they were offered stock in units of shares without knowing the valuation

\- or they accept a job and relocate to the Bay Area from a reasonably-
affordable place and mistakenly think that a $100k/year salary is hitting the
jackpot

\- or they were persuaded by the founders that the company was going to be a
rocketship without fulling knowing how to judge potential in companies or in
the personal traits of the founders themselves (we're not all superstar VCs)
and then it didn't turn out to be the case but they didn't want to eat the
sunk cost with their unvested shares (takeoff was always just ostensibly
around the corner!)

\- or they didn't realize just how much more FAANG actually pays than late-
stage startups or even other top-tier companies (even Glassdoor is wrong)

\- or they preferred to take on more risk without fully understanding the
reward aspect (the survivorship bias here in the Bay is real, as enforced by a
tough housing market)

\- or they previously worked for a big company with poor culture and were
turned off by it and decided to only work for startups

\- or they weren't prepped in the art of negotiation

\- or the founders acted against their employees' best interests and took an
early buy-out offer that brought everyone in as acquihires of BigCorp for
cheap

\- or the founders took money off the table for themselves with zero
intentions of ever doing anything favorable to the employees that would
actually let them to liquidify such as trying to go public or sell the
company, while still keeping up the whole carrot-on-stick shtick

~~~
badfrog
> or they didn't realize just how much more FAANG actually pays than late-
> stage startups or even other top-tier companies (even Glassdoor is wrong)

This is true for a lot of people I talk to. It seems very odd that there's not
more compensation transparency from these companies, because I know several
people who would have jointed FAANG if they knew what they'd be making 3-5
years into their career.

~~~
2plates
I had a roommate that was frustrated by a startup who left for Google. Once I
heard him talking numbers I was shocked! Also using Blind (of all places) for
comp data was eye opening.

Ultimately though you have to find out for yourself. For me, I found out I was
leaving $90k/year on the table. I love startups, but I don’t know if I love
them that much.

~~~
xiphias2
You're leaving $90k/year with its compounding interest on the table. Trust me,
$90k/year is nothing compared to what it will worth in 20 years if you invest
it.

I'm 36 and my life is just getting easier every year while I see people around
me working their asses off and being stressed over time.

~~~
badfrog
Plus the opportunity to get promoted and make significantly more in a couple
years.

------
cdavid
Financially speaking, the odds are incredibly against you as far as equity
goes. One advantage. of working in startup is what Paul Buchheit calls working
above your correct level, a kind of Peter principle in reverse
([https://triplebyte.com/blog/interview-with-gmail-creator-
and...](https://triplebyte.com/blog/interview-with-gmail-creator-and-y-
combinator-partner-paul-buchheit)). E.g. if you are one of the few seniors in
a team, you can fairly quickly become head of eng, that kind of things, and
that definitely helps your career in general.

If you want to stay an individual contributor, and can get into one of the
famous companies, then I would say there is not much advantage working for a
startup today.

------
e9
Either start one or join one close to IPO. It’s not worth being first employee
etc, too much risk for no reward(dilution through rounds , no payout in small
acquisition, low salary, etc)

------
tirumaraiselvan
I don't think this is anything 2019 specific, but working in a niche startup
is probably the only plausible way of working on anything niche like say
blockchain or serverless.

~~~
statictype
There are many big companies wasting money on the latest fad.

Hell, there are many big non-tech companies throwing money at blockchain

~~~
tirumaraiselvan
I don't disagree but their rate of innovation is rather slow because it isn't
something their survival depends on.

------
henning
Cons:

\- Startups are disorganized

\- Most startups fail because they make a stupid product no one wants and the
team is awful

\- Startups pay below what a large company can afford and often pay below
market rate

\- Startups will try to low ball you on equity. Don't start with me about
negotiating. If they refuse to negotiate, you have your choice of no
meaningful equity or working somewhere else. This is often the case.

\- Insane sociopath founders who also are terrible at their jobs

\- Startups are full of startup bros who are fucking insane sociopath assholes
in general. Why the fuck would you want to play ping pong during normal
business hours, you stupid fucking asshole? We're trying to build a business
here.

\- Startups idolize hustle porn

\- Startups are increasingly choosing to not even exit which defeats the
entire fucking purpose of working there

Pros

\- Things are so disorganized that you if you accidentally fuck up, no one
might even notice

\- If you win the lottery, you'll almost make up for the money you could have
made working at Google or some other big company

~~~
babaganoosh89
What do you have against ping pong?

~~~
Agathos
It's noisy and distracting when it's taking place ten feet away from your open
plan workspace.

~~~
matfil
This is far more compelling as an argument against open plans than against
table tennis.

Taking a break from a problem can be really valuable. Personally, I skew more
"take a walk" than "table tennis", but having some indoor options for people
who prefer those (or rainy days...) doesn't seem such a bad thing.

~~~
Agathos
"Should I work at a startup?" Eh, maybe, but be skeptical of their promises.

"Should I work at a startup that puts developers in private offices?" Hell
yes!

------
testpostpls
Ironically, it’s become even less likely you’ll find people at startups who
tie their self-esteem to money and more likely at big cos.

------
CykaXbljad
Particularly deadly are alleged heroes. So-called JavaScript gods who push
nothing but bad code into bad infrastructure. People who shoot against
everything and everyone, but always celebrate themselves as heroes for night
actions. To succeed leads a heterogeneous team that pursues the same goals.
Mood killers and finger pointers belong in no startup.

------
yhoiseth
While not new, maybe [https://80000hours.org/career-reviews/startup-early-
employee...](https://80000hours.org/career-reviews/startup-early-employee/)
might be useful to have a look at.

~~~
hhs
I find 80,000 hours to be an interesting website. It has useful information
for reflection and critical thinking.

------
asdlfj
Don't do it unless it's your startup.

If you want to join a startup, make sure you know everything about their
background.

I would say most startups are mismanage and only a few are truly good.

The longer you do startups, the harder it is to re-join corporate. a) because
you don't want to be a cog again, now that you have seen the light b) because
hiring is broken, and recruiters could care less about your startup

I would say doing startups is a lifestyle choice. Constant stress, but
ultimately, you wouldn't want to do anything else.

------
cco
I'm really disappointed (?) that nearly all of these answers are about money.
I strongly prefer smaller companies for the larger impact you can have, the
intimacy between a smaller team, and more freedom for self directed work.

That is worth a lot of money to me, to each there own, but I definitely prefer
less money but a more enjoyable work experience.

------
sanxiyn
Pro: You will have larger responsibility.

Con: The same.

------
hgasimov
To me, the only benefit of joining a startup is in startups you're usually
given tasks for which you're not qualified for. But I wouldn't join a startup
if startup doesn't offer me compensation package (salary + stock option) at
least at market average.

~~~
humanrebar
Engineers generally have worse data about market averages. It's better to get
some offers and get a feel for what _that engineer_ can reasonably expect.
Then at the negotiation table, she can either argue for market average or
provide anecdata that they are are an above average engineer as far as market
rates are concerned.

------
drugme
Pros: interesting(-ish) work, fun(-seeming) people, bragging rights

Cons: amateur hour 24x7

------
casper345
I am the only software engineer at my company so here are my tl;dr;

1\. Pro: I have ownership and gaining experience in multiple areas ranging
from networking, QA, Testing, design architecture where at bigger companies I
may only be in one of those foci.

2\. Con: No Coding Reviews. I cannot bounce ideas of someone and trying my
best to produce the best codes but I believe I need a Senior/Prinicpal above
me to help me on this front.

------
npx
The worst part of it, in my experience, is that it can be hard to tell a food
founder from a bad founder until you've spent some time working with them. I
think that venture capitalists have the same issue although they generally
have a much larger database of wins and losses to shape their opinions.

------
expertentipp
Startups? Sociopaths, psychopats everywhere. They don't have empathy,
expertise, they don't even have money (for the salaries) in most cases. People
should start treating seriously their mental health and how working with
socio- and psychopats impacts it.

------
neokantian
Nowadays, a good startup is one that is going to run into massive legal
issues: Uber, Airbnb, any cryptocurrency-related company, or any similar
platform that is going to ransack vested interests. Otherwise, it will not
make a difference. I mostly do it because I like the fact that the new concept
may end up bankrupting entire self-serving industries. I would have loved
joining Uber back then, and get a kick from pushing every taxi company on the
globe into chapter-11 proceedings. There is still so much to disrupt!

~~~
theyinwhy
First and foremost Uber is disrupting social security. Not sure why that's
sth. to look forward to ...

