
Foiling Electric Boat - punnerud
https://candelaspeedboat.com/
======
thatcherc
This looks like a lot of fun, but I'm wary of its safety. Foiling boats (at
least the sailboats) have a tendency to come down _hard_ off the foils if not
sailed exactly right. That's why you'll see helmets worn by sailors both on
big foiling AC72s and F50s as well as a the single-handed Wazsps, Moths, and
UFOs.

The deep V profile the Candela's bow looks like it would handle dropping off
the foil or hitting a big wave pretty well, and the 100 Hz foil control loop
is reassuring, but my experience on little foiling sailboats would keep me
cautious on one of these for a while. However, getting a boat to pop out above
the waves is such an amazing feeling that I'd take a ride on one of these in a
heartbeat (just maybe with a helmet!).

Some foiling sailboat crashes for reference -

\- [https://youtu.be/875yq0-ogwo?t=20](https://youtu.be/875yq0-ogwo?t=20)

\- [https://youtu.be/frAkDEszgZc?t=26](https://youtu.be/frAkDEszgZc?t=26)

~~~
Candelaboat
You hit the nail on the head here. Safety is a key question that often comes
up in discussions that we have with customers, and is of course a key focus in
the development of the Candela model range.

As you mention, the deep V hull cuts waves pretty well, but we also have
algorithms monitoring the position of the boat in 3D space, looking for
signals that indicate a treacherous seastate or an unfavorable position of the
boat. This means that we won't do the nose dives that you see in the sailing
videos.

Be sure that we have landed unexpectedly quite a few times to get to where we
are! :D

To sum it up, when you are accustomed to flying with the Seven and you know
where the limits are in terms of wave handling, then it's no different from
riding in a regular boat in choppy seas or high waves. Unruly seas require
alert sailors, in all types of boats.

We're publishing a short video soon, purely focused on running through waves
from large passenger ferries. Sub to our youtube to know when.

~~~
jfindley
What are the limits in terms of wave handling? How well does it stack up to a
large rib in rough seas?

~~~
Candelaboat
Open waters on a windy day or the day after a windy day can be hard.

Check out our videos from the Caribbean and a comparison with an 8 meter
aluminum boat in a choppy archipelago condition.

Can we foil in every single wave height there is? Abosolutely not, but our
boats outperform regular boats in comfort in weathers where you'd normally
bring out your 8 meter daycruiser/open boat.

It's also worth remembering that in rough seas, you can go down from the foils
with no issue. You just cut the efficiency down to regular boat levels...

~~~
MayeulC
Hi, that's a really interesting boat concept.

Even if not foiling, can you still take the boat out with, say, beaufort 8-9
weather? That's more similar to what I was expecting in the "high waves"
videos, and is not unusual to encounter when commuting or spending the day
elsewhere, depending on your area (obviously, it starts being unpleasant if
you want to spend the day _at sea_ on a speedboat).

Edit: now realizing it, but your target market is probably only going to go
out with calm weather in protected seas, given the price point and finish. I
hope that sort of product will get mainstream at some point.

~~~
mstade
Let's just be honest, you're not going out in Beaufort 8-9 kind of weather
with this size boat, foiling or not, unless you have to. I have a boat larger
and likely more capable of taking on rough seas than the Candela and I will
avoid those kinds of winds if I can, and only really go out in that kind s of
weather if I must.

~~~
MayeulC
Yeah, you are right, I was mainly thinking about swell, which can sometimes be
quite important, while local wind isn't particularly strong. Beaufort scale is
more a wind scale than a swell scale, my apologies for using it. I don't think
big waves are that problematic to navigate with a speedboat if the period
between two waves is long enough, but I don't think foiling would work with
that kind of sea. Since I used to live in an area where such conditions were
relatively frequent, I was wondering how well the Candela could handle them.

My boating skills aren't that fresh anymore, despite living on one during my
childhood, and spending a good chunk of my youth close to the sea. I might
thus misremember or exaggerate things, but I am fairly confident of the above.

~~~
mstade
You're not wrong, but also the minimum foiling speed for this particular boat
is listed at 17 knots. If you're navigating a speed boat through rough seas at
17 knots you're a braver person than I am for sure. :o)

Below that it seems to me like it behaves more or less like a regular boat.
Regardless, I'd probably avoid speeds above 10 knots if I found myself in
relatively high seas, and I'd just avoid going out in that kind of boat
altogether if I had the option. If you do find yourself in that kind of sea
though my experience is that most swells tend to come from one direction so
you can find a good bearing surf the waves, zig-zagging if need be. Adjusting
speed as need be is crucial in rough seas for sure.

It does have a reasonable draft without the foils extended it seems, 1 meter,
and at 2.4 meters wide it seems like it could be pretty stable actually. It'll
be interesting to see once my buddy gets his delivered.

------
jfengel
And here I was wondering what it was they had against Electric Boat[1]. Maybe
they want to disrupt the submarine-builder market?

[1] [http://www.gdeb.com/](http://www.gdeb.com/)

~~~
SkyMarshal
That was my first interpretation too. Was relieved to find Electric Boat isn't
being foiled by anything.

------
cjlars
Do these things need to be drydocked? We have very fast and aggressive bottom
growth where I live, race boats get cleaned every few weeks, cruisers develop
a bit of sludge that turns into a full on boat bottom salad pretty quick.

------
dharma1
[http://q-yachts.com/](http://q-yachts.com/) is also worth checking - not a
hydrofoil but a beautiful (though expensive) electric boat

~~~
mstade
Any idea how expensive? Asking for a friend.. :o)

~~~
munificent
Keep in mind that purchase price is a smaller fraction of the total cost of
ownership for a boat than for other kinds of vehicles. Marina, maintenance,
etc. are much higher recurring expenses compared to, say, having a weekend
sports car that just sits in the garage most of the time.

Just because you can _buy_ a boat, that doesn't mean you can _afford_ a boat.

~~~
mstade
Oh believe my I know, I've been a boat owner for the past few years. Boats are
money pits, no doubt, but also a lot of fun. The feeling of going out early in
the morning in calm seas, as the sun is rising – it's hard to beat and makes
you forget all the work and money involved in having those moments.

Obviously it depends on what you're going to use the boat for, but for me
personally it's all recreational. Boating makes me happy, and as much as I'll
cuss and swear every time I have to do maintenance and upkeep I still think
it's worth it.

I'm sure you know the old adage of the two happiest days in a boat owner's
life: the day you buy the boat, and the day you sell the boat. Still, we never
learn. :o)

------
Bubbadoo
Does look like fun, but let's face it, 50 nautical miles is nothing on the
water. I guess if you're on a lake the just under 60 mile range is enough to
water ski but it's definitely not suited to deep water. And all carbon fiber,
must cost a pretty penny. Great idea, hopefully battery technology innovates
to give products such as this one a more practical use case.

~~~
jcampbell1
I’ve done plenty of fishing 40 miles offshore in NC on a boat this sized. I
can’t imagine anyone riding 80 miles in the ocean for “fun”. It is 5 hours of
suck to catch fish. 60 miles seems like more than enough for day cruising.
That being said, this boat is a total no go in NC due to draft... day cruisers
have skiffs and sandbar parties.

------
generatorguy
After seeing the foils finally catch on in water sports I have been wondering
why there are no foil boats. Great to see someone has made it happen!

I don’t do enough miles a year boating to care about the minor amount of
fossil fuels I burn. I would be really interested in the foil tech with gas
powered outboard. The foil boat must be must much more fuel efficient with a
gas motor?

------
kbenson
So, if my napkin calculations on minimal Google searching are any indication,
you get about half the range as you'd get in the 240 Bowrider (50 vs 100
nautical miles), which honestly seems pretty good.

I'm not sure how much worse the efficiency is at lower speeds though, and
there's almost always lower speeds involved for extended periods as you move
through no wake zones.

Additionally, emergency capacity might be an issue (an extra fuel can isn't
really possible), and if you do run out of power, it's not like someone could
offer one or bring one, you're really looking at a tow, from what I can see.

Very cool though.

Note: I used this[1] for some quick info on what kind of fuel efficiency the
bowrider got at different speeds, and used fuel tank size to estimate range.

1: [https://betterboat.com/average-boat-
speed/](https://betterboat.com/average-boat-speed/)

------
kumarvvr
Would this work if there are weeds or big fishes in the water?

The foil would get damaged pretty quickly, before actually killing most of the
fish it comes into contact with.

The concept is very very old and well known. So there must be practical
reasons why this was not commercialized.

~~~
Candelaboat
Weeds can be an issue, unless the foils just cut through them. Taking off in a
weed heavy water can be tricky, just like operating a jetski, a jet boat or a
regular prop boat. It is true that a fish wouldn't fare too well either when
hitting the leading edge of the foil, which is submerged to about 0.7 meters.

However, the foil can take quite a beating.

Regarding commercialization, which is a great question in itself, our
experience tells us that it's due to: 1\. It's hard to build controllable
foils, especially in a "miniaturized" size like a 8 meter boat. 2\. the
technology to enable sufficient speed of electronic foil control hasn't been
cheap nor good enough prior to the advent of consumer drones & smartphones.

~~~
kumarvvr
As an electrical engineer, I'm intrigued. Do you actually control the angle of
the foils during travel?

Is it to maintain a set height or change height too. I know that too high, and
the boat becomes unstable.

I know that retracting the foils is a simple thing, relatively speaking.

However, if you are actually controlling the foil angle, isn't the technology
available for decades? I mean there are cooling water pumps that change the
impeller vane angles during operation at 400 - 700 RPM, there are helicopter
blades that change angles, ship propellers can also change angle during
operation, etc. There are many examples.

What technical problem have you specifically overcome in this case?

~~~
Candelaboat
Great question. What's different in our case is that the flight controller
captures the boat’s movements from 7 sensors. Then it establishes the full-
state 3×6 state matrix (position, velocity and acceleration with regards to
position in x, y and x and rotation around the same axis). This is partly done
using sensor fusion algorithms.

We then use the outputs to control the angle of attack, along the longitudinal
axis of the foil, essentially twisting it. The R&D that has gone into making
this work reliably enough for a consumer product is our secret sauce.

~~~
kumarvvr
I have a lot of questions and doubts, but I guess this would not be the best
place to ask them.

Anyway, congrats on the product. It feels awesome.

------
JacobDotVI
Does anyone know what their current status is? Their FAQs haven't been updated
in over a year:

>How many boats have you delivered?

>As of March 2019, we have delivered 10 boats to customers in Sweden, Finland,
Austria, the US and the British Virgin Islands.

>When can you deliver?

>We still have a few production slots available for deliveries for the summer
of 2020. Scroll down and go to the order page to reserve one.

~~~
zackkatz
The video reports they have delivered 12. Not exactly producing at scale!

~~~
gpapilion
There are very few boats that’s hit high scale production numbers. They are
often custom, and the market is much smaller for higher priced boats. 12 is
lower than I would have thought, sub 100 a year isn’t surprising.

~~~
cptaj
Yeah, most boat manufacturers in the world don't hit mass production numbers.

Fiberglass is relatively easy to work with requiring very little tooling
investment. You can also easily "clone" other boats by taking a mold of the
hull.

This means there are A LOT of mom and pop shops making amazing boats all over
the world.

12 boats for these guys seems pretty good to me. Its very unproven technology
and boaters don't like that. The sea is a rough environment and most wil
prefer tried and true solutions with long supply chains for parts and service.

~~~
MikaelCandela
The boat is actually not fiberglass, it’s all carbon fiber. That’s why it’s so
light - the hull is just 230 kg. A similar glass fiber boat would be 900 kg.

~~~
fock
how do you intend to fix and cracks and similar things coming up over the
sustainable lifetime of such a recreational article (probably spanning several
decades)?

~~~
jiofih
Carbon fiber doesn’t crack like fiberglass.

------
tedhallez
Imagine going through a NO WAKE zone at 35 mph

~~~
spurgu
Generally wake size isn't a factor in "No wake" zones, they're instead
enforced through speed limits. :( At least in Europe.

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fred_is_fred
Thanks to our wonderful English language and the use of title case, I thought
this headline was about countering or circumventing (foiling) the Electric
Boat company - a manufacturer of submarines. The boat is cool, but I was
hoping to see some anti-submarine warfare stuff here.

~~~
fsckboy
same, but I thought it must be about underbidding Electric Boat on a contract,
and at a glance I thought the story was about Canada. Depends on your
perception of the most likely threat models :)

------
LittleNemoInS
Hardly the first... The SeaBubbles were tested on the Geneva lake (the one in
Switzerland) three years ago...
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeaBubble](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeaBubble)

~~~
polack
The Candela Seven is a finished product while the SeaBubble haven't made its
way to production yet. With that in mind it's not unreasonable to think
Candela had a prototype done before the Bubble...

------
sjburt
I don't understand the point at all. At least in my area, most boats of this
size are used for fishing, wake sports, or as a sailboat tender.

Larger boats with a cabin and accommodations are common as party boats but
this seems a bit too small.

~~~
Candelaboat
There are plenty of markets & brands around the world that see lots of 8 meter
sized day cruiser boats.

Remember that boating is very locally adapted, with many boat models from
Sweden never being exported to other regions, due to regional preferences and
sea conditions.

~~~
mcguire
Have you considered the bass-fishing market? Your boats are a little expensive
but not terribly so. Speed might be a bigger problem.

------
regularfry
I want to strap wings to the side and make a foil/ground-effect crossbreed.

~~~
cagenut
and then coat the wings with triple-junction GaAs solar panels for a 5kw
"wind" at your back.

~~~
tantalor
Strap one these babies on there for a real "solar wind" at your back:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail)

------
quanticle
How does one get one of these onto a trailer and down a boat ramp? It seems
like the hydrofoil adds enough draft that it would scrape the bottom on a lot
of public access ramps.

~~~
treeform
On the website they show the foils retract into the boat.

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dzhiurgis
Wonder if you can somehow combine foils with sea legs to walk that thing on
the beach :)

------
kiteloop
Is there a good solution for removing sea grass that got tangled on the foil?

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cwkoss
How do foils affect the turning characteristics of boats?

------
jack_riminton
Very smart solution. Looks like it could be the ideal candidate for some solar
panels too

------
mtw
How much is this ?

~~~
robfitz
There's one for sale in Florida for 295 grand. I can't imagine it's supposed
to cost that much, so I'm assuming that either it's someone scalping one of
the first 12 due to scarcity, or they'll be dropping prices significantly as
they increase production quantities.

A super nice diesel boat like this would cost 20-50k. And 50 nautical miles
range is... not much. I love boats, but it's hard for me to imagine the use
case here. Hopefully it's like Tesla and all improves very rapidly (price,
range, etc) after the early batches.

~~~
JacobDotVI
>And 50 nautical miles range is... not much

This is plenty of range for day trips throughout the Spanish, US, and British
Virgin Islands. You could do multi-day trips if you planned your overnights at
the various marinas with power hookups (e.g. Scrub Island, Cooper, etc.)

~~~
Ichthypresbyter
>This is plenty of range for day trips throughout the Spanish, US, and British
Virgin Islands.

Or indeed the Stockholm Archipelago, which I imagine is what this is designed
for.

~~~
mstade
For sure it's enough for the Stockholm archipelago, and pretty much everywhere
else along the Swedish east or west coast. As a day cruiser 50 nautical miles
is more than enough.

------
phebijohn
NIce information

------
ebbflowgo
Looks awesome

~~~
topspin
Certainly looks smoother than smashing into waves.

------
dmitrygr
> Always connected to the cloud via 3G network

> High frequency data logging for enhanced

> support and fleet learning

When will manufacturers finally learn that these are _NOT_ pros, they are
_very serious cons_ ‽‽‽

I do not want my data sold, and unless you plan to pay me a rate I set, _my_
data is not an asset you can use in developing _your_ business.

~~~
valuearb
Pretty sure anyone who can afford this boat isn’t concerned about Candela
selling their data. Likely far more concerned that Candela uses the data to
improve their experience.

------
fock
so, what's the purpose of this thing. Because taking out "fossil fuels" of a
senseless activity just to use up 20% less of our liveable environment, seems
-ehm- idiotic?

~~~
Candelaboat
That's a great question. Purpose. Even though some might consider boating a
senseless activity, people around the world enjoy it dearly. Boating is simply
one of the world's biggest outdoor activities.

We could have gone for trying to make people quit buying, using and spending
on boats, but that seemed a lot harder than creating a better alternative to
regular boats.

5 years of R&D, sweat, tears and big load of broken foils later, we are in
full production with a boat that reduces local emissions by 99%, compared to
fossil boats.

~~~
fock
so in what wonderland are you charging your boat with this 99%-less CO2-grid?

And guess what, boating could arguably also be done with a 100% reduced
emission footprint. It's called sailing.

Btw: what did I miss that owning and operating a boat is one of the biggest
outdoor activities (especially small motorboats?)?

As far as the tech goes: it looks interesting, but safe the "we are making the
world a better place" part.

~~~
Candelaboat
Gasoline when burned emits 2.3kgs of CO2 One can confidently assume 1.5 liters
per nautical mile for an 8 meter petrol boat at speeds above 20 knots. That's
3450 grams per NM.

Our boats consume roughly 1 kwh per NM, from the grid. Swedish electricity
generation emits about 15g of CO2 per kWh. That's even better than 99%.

Even in the US, in 2013, with 500g of CO2 per kWh, the emissions from a
Candela are still 85% lower. And at least 99% lower locally in the water where
the boat is being used.

It would be fantastic if all boating was done by sails, but saying that's the
solution is like saying Tesla shouldn't have innovated on the automobile
because there is already a technology for moving around on roads: bikes.

Do you suggest that nothing should be done about emissions on the water?

~~~
fock
> at speeds above 20knots

maybe speed is a problem here. and if you are slow, it's a lot less.

Also burning at least 50€ (I'm not sure about tax exemptions for nautical
fuel, but in Europe 1.5€/l is very likely) for a short trip of ~30km back and
forth (which you could hike in a day - though not on water) underlines that
whatever you consider "boating, the mass hobby" is something done (to great
environmental cost) by a very, very small minority.

And yes I'm all for taxing the people with enough money to burn today so that
they won't have to do that tomorrow - and reducing emissions of global sea
trade as well.

~~~
vlangber
There are 1 million leisure boats in Norway, with 5,4m inhabitants. So not
exactly just for a very, very small minority..

~~~
fock
motorized leisure boats over 8m going 20knots. I doubt that.

------
sandworm101
Ok. They put an electric motor on a hydrofoil. Where is the innovation? This
isn't new stuff. Anyone can buy a hydrofoil hull and install an electric
motor. The limitation always was, and remains, the wild impracticality
inherent to hydrofoils regardless of power source.

~~~
Candelaboat
Hey Sandworm. Candela here.

Sure, it's perfectly doable to put hydrofoils on any type of hull, especially
passive hydrofoils. We tried, and it wasn't especially nice, nor efficient.

The trick is to use fully submerged ones. But those are much harder to keep
stable, as they are inherently unstable. That's were our secret sauce is. We
can control them through software similar to what you see in drones. Also,
we've created the mechanical and structural components necessary for wave
handling.

You won't find this type of innovation, especially the software, in any other
boat in production. That's the new stuff.

~~~
bawana
how bout a gas version for us poor folk? Given the increased efficiency, it
wouldn't need a big motor?

or would the software installed in one of the many sailboat designs using
foils prevent their high accident rate?>

------
bullen
To move 1.300kg of vehicle to transport 100-500kg of meat is not a prospect
that makes sense. I also doubt the boat will handle well with 5 adults.

Show me an electric (or dead-trees powered for that matter) boat made for one
person that can foil or at least plane and maybe I'll be interested.

For reference I made this bike which weighs the same as the person it
transports and has batteries that last 10 years for $300 at almost the same
range/speed, the bike including everything is $3.000 so 100x cheaper:

[https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=h...](https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Felhjul.se)

~~~
Candelaboat
Hey Bullen, we do fine with 10 people on board. Check this video:
[https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1149405105441917](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1149405105441917)

Do you also think that a Tesla Model 3, transporting 5 adults, but weighing in
at above 1500kg is a bad idea?

~~~
bullen
Yes, to produce enough electricity that everyone can have their tesla/candela
is impossible because we are running out of cheap dead trees.

Electricity is not an energy source.

EROEI is already below 10 on the dead trees we use today (down from 100 a
century ago, that's 10x or 1000% down).

And you need dead-trees to build nuclear and hydro. Solar and wind are
useless.

A weight ratio of equal between transport (including energy storage) and
transported is the only solution.

Personally I find the half weight of lithium to not compensate for the
complexity/price, so I recommend lead-acid.

~~~
dubcanada
Not fully sure what dead trees have to do with anything?

Can you expand on what you mean by dead-trees are needed for nuclear and
hydro?

And can you expand on what you mean by solar and wind are useless?

Based on what I've seen EROEI seems to be for wind, solar not so much due to
product costs, but wind seems to be above the 7 threshold.

~~~
bullen
Dead trees = coal, oil and gas.

Solar and wind are not something you can decide when you want it and the EROEI
is only ok if you subvention the manufacturing and/or grid with dead-trees,
when you look at it from a system perspective they are utterly useless.

The numbers only look good through the debt lens.

Both solar and wind have very short lifespans.

