

How to Get Hired at Fog Creek, Part 1 - gecko
http://hicks-wright.net/blog/how-to-get-a-job-at-fog-creek-part-1/

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henning
The question presents itself: why would someone that good want to work on
project management software with such a funky user interface and oddball
feature set?

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epall
That's the same sentiment I had. The software guys I've worked hated FogBugz
so much they scared the crap out of our CEO. I watched Aardvark'd and once
longed to work for The Great Fog Creek, but I've already moved onto bigger and
better things.

~~~
gaius
In 15 years in the industry I have met many people who like to quote Joel
Spolsky, but I have not come across one single person who actually uses a Fog
Creek product. Kinda like lots of people have read ESR, but no-one is using
his code...

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gms
How are they so profitable then?

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oldgregg
A few things to consider...

1\. They have a stable base of corporate microsoft shops using fogbugz --
which is why none of us knows anybody using it. My guess is their other
products make little if any revenue.

2\. They don't pay most of their people very much. They probably only have a
dozen or so people on staff full time and everyone else is an intern.

3\. Their job board does pretty well. Quite a bit of passive $$$.

Fog Creek seems like a stable and profitable business. That said, there are
thousands of profitable small boutique software companies out there.

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mbenjaminsmith
I've been on both sides of the hiring table in different professions (staffer,
co-founder) and that article made my stomach turn. Anyone who puts up that
much of a fuss lacks the courage to lead and manage people the right way -
through inspiration.

To the youngsters out there: the more difficult they make it seem, the less
they actually have to offer.

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nostrademons
I'm curious: how would people compare the prestige of working at Fog Creek vs.
the prestige of working at Google? Or one of the other big Internet companies
- Microsoft, Amazon, Yahoo, EBay, etc...?

I remember Joel doing similar how-to-get-hired essays when I was in college. I
was always like, "Pffft. Why would I want to work for a company that does
_bugtracking_ software?" Ended up taking a job at a financial software startup
instead. I'm wondering if other people feel the same way or if I'm just a
gigantic snob. (The two may not be mutually exclusive...)

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brown9-2
I think that working at a company like Fog Creek or 37 Signals would be seen
as highly prestigous, but only by a pretty limited audience: those that follow
software development blogs.

Whereas working at Google, pretty much everyone who has touched a computer is
familiar with who Google is.

So I guess it depends on what your intended audience is.

~~~
twoz
_pretty much everyone who has touched a computer is familiar with who Google
is_

And they'll also generally think you're somehow in charge of search and e-mail
at Google. :)

Kind of like having been in the Air Force and everyone asking you what kind of
jet you piloted.

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aswanson
Can I get rich working there in a reasonable time frame? Otherwise, why should
I give a shit how?

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edw519
"The easiest way to show off your brains is to have had good grades in school.
Just put your GPA on your resume and you're done."

Real bad litmus test.

I know lots of people who had a 4.0 who, if you dropped them off in the woods,
would have just died.

OTOH, I know lots of others who were brilliant but too bored to care about
grades.

Coding a one loop bubble sort in hex blindfolded while juggling eggs, playing
12 games of chess, solving a 100 x 100 sudoku, providing an alternate solution
to the 4 color theorem, teleporting tonights winning Powerball numbers, and
cooking dinner would be a more applicable barometer.

~~~
oldgregg
Unbelievable. The thing about fog creek is that they want highly competent
technical engineers without any entrepreneur spirit. Joel is the leader and he
needs code monkeys to carry out the work. People who make 4.0s are the exact
kind of people they need-- discipline, reverence for authority, people
pleasers-- people who won't rock the boat. For Fog Creek this is a great
litmus test.

Think I'm full of it? Watch their little movie they put together then tell me
I'm not spot on. (I hope you enjoy pimple faced programmers verbally fellating
joel spolsky)

<http://www.projectaardvark.com/movie/>

Incidentally, Google has a similar aesthetic, although not to the same degree.
People who are drawn to startups are not usually the kind of people you want
in a corporate structure.

~~~
bravura
I lost all respect for Joel Spolsky when I read this article:

[http://www.inc.com/magazine/20090101/how-hard-could-it-be-
th...](http://www.inc.com/magazine/20090101/how-hard-could-it-be-thanks-or-no-
thanks_Printer_Friendly.html?partner=fogcreek)

Summary: Intern comes up with a job sales board for Fog Greek, grosses $1m.
Joel decides not to compensate him, arguing that it is difficult to measure
the contribution of each individual.

The whole article is sickening, because Joel tries so hard to contort reason
and make it sound like he was being fair.

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wglb
Well, not quite so--they did decide to offer him stock conditional upon him
joining. While I don't agree with not coughing up a cash bonus, he is making a
point about their culture, and that is always a dicey thing to fiddle with.
And he isn't really in startup mode.

~~~
gaius
Stock in a company that isn't public and has no plans to IPO is literally
worthless. Joel could have given him ONE HUNDRED BILLION shares if he'd wanted
to. Well, almost worthless: it's worth exactly as much as one sheet of paper.
Or half a sheet, since now you can only write on one side of it!

At least the t-shirt you could wear for yardwork or in the gym...

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rfreytag
Creativity did not make the list of evaluation criteria.

