
Revolution in Kiev - eigenvector
http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984735.html
======
IgorPartola
Man, the amount of disdain people have for protesters in the comments to this
story is really shocking. I do not exactly understand where it's coming from.
Yanukovych is a corrupt petty thief and rapist, turned politician, who has
very close ties with Russia, and is stealing from the Ukrainian people through
corruption. He rigged an election in 2004 and only massive riots prevented him
from coming into power then by forcing a new vote. In any civilized country
any of these individual issues would have prevented him from being eligible to
be president.

The basic political problem in Ukraine is that Russia still has lots of
influence over it, and Russia sees it as its territory separated temporarily
after the breakup of the USSR. Ukraine is dependent on Russia for things like
natural gas, and thus cannot simply break away from the abusive relationship.
Russia naturally has an interest in having a political puppet in power in
Ukraine. Who better to do this than a convicted felon like Yanukovych? This is
how the riots started this time around: to protest the sudden pro-Russian turn
of the Yanukovych administration.

Ukraine has for some time now faced the tough choice: continue its abusive but
familiar relationship with Russia or turn to Europe and risk everything to try
to build a new relationship with the EU? IMO, until Ukraine grows a spine and
does what's best for its people long term, it will continue getting into
situations like this. Yanukovych, while completely corrupt, is not the
ultimate evil. He is a lackey that will be replaced if he is ousted. The real
issue here is Russia.

~~~
thesz
Those commenters have very justified disdain.

They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be
pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based
on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the
Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc.

Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo%28a%29pyrene](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo%28a%29pyrene)
Those compounds are 1000 times more harmful than lead.

They are making Kiev to be very bad for living quite fast.

So, in short, protesters are stupid judging from several points of view.

~~~
emilis_info
I come from one of your "former Baltic USSR republics" (actually a country
with a long history before being occupied by soviet Russia).

I saw the changes from gaining freedom from Russian occupation and joining the
EU with my own eyes.

We gained so much from EU, I don't know were to start.

Financially: we got a lot of our infrastructure built with EU funds (roads,
etc.), if you see anything modernized even in the remote places of my country,
you usually see a EU sign next to it.

Legally: there are always discussions about EU legislation, but a lot of it
makes our lives better. Most recent example: smoked meat products will be
allowed to be produced only with smoke, not chemicals.

Culturally: I used to be living in a land of grumpy cats interested only in
themselves. To some extent it still is that way (see
[http://imgur.com/z5rYv](http://imgur.com/z5rYv)). However the open borders
policy has a big ongoing effect: most of the people have seen (or seen the
effects on their friends) how people behave and communicate in the Western
Europe. Majority of people have got more friendly, polite and positive about
the future.

~~~
thesz
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia#Ethnic_groups](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia#Ethnic_groups)
is closest to the demographic graph of Latvia, for example. It stopped to grow
right after Russian occupation ended.

Take a closer look to the conditions in which most people live from where you
have come. Or at their prospects in life. Or prospects of economy. I think
that will change your opinion slightly.

~~~
air
Russians moving into the country during Soviet rule and moving out after it
seem to explain the graph pretty well

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Russians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Russians)
:

The number of Russians in Latvia increased significantly during the Soviet
occupation of Latvia when the size of the community grew from 10.5% of the
total population in 1935 (206,499) to 34.0% in 1989 (905,515). It started to
decrease in size again after Latvia re-gained independence in 1991 falling to
26.9% (557,119) in 2011.

~~~
thesz
No, it doesn't fully explain changes. Numbers don't match.

Take a look at another statistics -
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Latvia#Vital_st...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Latvia#Vital_statistics)

Number of births per 1000 had fallen right after end of "Russian occupation"
and never ever regained 14.2 right before Latvian independence.

~~~
stdbrouw
Your point being that fertile people are happy people?

~~~
thesz
Directly answering your question - No.

There's a point of time where Latvia went EU route, namely 1995. Nothing
changed at that time. The trend started in 1991 (when USSR was split)
continued until not very far past. The most important consequence of that
trend is low fertility.

I also would like to comment on your question. From what I saw in my life,
happy people are fertile people. The people who feels support from all
directions are fertile people. And also happy ones.

------
hooande
This is an amazingly low tech revolution. The primary weapons of the
protestors are: smoke, flammable liquid, rocks, shields and giant slingshots.
These tools could have been used in the Peloponeasian War as easily as in
2014. It really says something about the character of the revolutionaries that
they are willing to fight without modern weapons or equipment. I don't know
enough about the Urkaine to asses the merit of their politics, but I am
inclined to side with the group that has old women and children pitching in to
help with logistics. There aren't just criminals and malcontents. Right or
wrong, these people feel strongly about their cause.

The courage these activists are showing is going to do a lot to help
accomplish their political goals. Every day that they hold out will increase
the volume of their message. When I originally heard about this I thought it
was more of a violent uprising. But the protestors are fighting with fireworks
and laser pointers. This kind of aggressive non-violence will play better in
the media once more people learn about the details. If the number of
casualties remains low this could turn into an Eastern European Tahrir Square,
with hopefully positive benefits for the whole region.

~~~
jccooper
"The courage these activists are showing is going to do a lot to help
accomplish their political goals."

What are their political goals? The author of this piece seems to say that
there are none, other than being generally angry. Even if you know what you're
fighting for, it's hard to accomplish; if you don't know what you want, it's
rather unlikely you'll get it.

~~~
wslh
More information here [http://mobile.news.com.au/world/what-you-need-to-know-
about-...](http://mobile.news.com.au/world/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-
protests-in-kiev-ukraine/story-fndir2ev-1226808390931)

~~~
dimitar
The media both in Russia and West like to play up the East vs. West angle,
which I believe is inaccurate. While there are foreign and cultural factors in
Ukrainian politics, this is a much more boring story of corruption,
mismanagement authoritarianism and human rights abuses of the current rule.

------
rosser
I feel like this kind of thing (the various Arab Spring uprisings, the
Ukrainian revolution, _& c_) is very well served by the cacophony of
amateur/citizen journalism that flows out of an individual event.

Sure, at the time, it's incredibly noisy, because there's so much primary
source material being created, with such incredible depth and nuance. Once
people start to be able to assemble a comprehensive understanding of what
actually went down, however, it tends more accurately to reflect the reality
of events, and makes it much harder for spin and propaganda to dictate the
narrative. That's, I think, the ultimate goal of democratizing media.

But I'm also notoriously an optimist about this kind of thing, so, you know:
cup of salt, please take with.

~~~
yetanotherphd
A lot of what seems to be grassroots could be aided, and perhaps even
orchestrated, by sophisticated groups with a political agenda, e.g. the CIA.

It would only take around 10-20 bloggers to create the illusion that the
majority people in the country felt a certain way.

EDIT: and nowadays, they wouldn't just blog, they would post to Reddit, and
maybe even HN.

~~~
rosser
True enough. But my extended social circle includes a number of people of
Ukrainian nationality and/or descent. Everything I've heard from them (which
is, granted, not _a lot_ ; I haven't been tracking these events terribly
actively, let alone _vis-à-vis_ their perspectives) tends to corroborate what
I'm seeing in this blog post, at least.

~~~
yetanotherphd
There is a very significant pro-Western bias amongst educated people who have
moved to the West.

If you just looked at educated Chinese immigrants during the last 50 years,
you would never guess at the overwhelming support for the communist party.

~~~
bluekeybox
There is an equally significant anti-Western bias among liberal university-
educated people who were born in the U.S, so it mostly balances out. In
addition, we now have maps like this:
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/01/24...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/01/24/this-
is-the-one-map-you-need-to-understand-ukraines-crisis/?tid=pm_pop)

------
memracom
Just remember that everything you read/see about Ukraine is propaganda
published by someone who is trying to get you to agree with their point of
view. They are careful to select their photos to not show the things that they
don't want you to know about. For instance, these photos careful do not show
the neo-nazi far right groups, the people with handguns, or the police being
hit by flaming molotov cocktails or wounded by fireworks.

Of course the other side similarly delivers an edited message.

But the bottom line is that none of this is democracy. Whatever it is, it has
to end sometime so that all the groups of people who live in Ukraine can sit
down, discuss their differences, find compromises and live in peace. Only then
will Ukraine really be a nation. Until then it is just a corner of the Soviet
Union that has failed to catch up with the modern world.

~~~
IgorPartola
Bullshit. The people cannot sit down with this criminal president and discuss
anything. Ones that do end up in prison:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko).
He is stealing from the people
([http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-833127.html](http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-833127.html))
and is actively suppressing all forms of the opposition. Apply your logic to
the American revolution and see just how absurd it starts to sound. The please
stop trolling.

~~~
x0x0
end up in prison and beaten (did they cause her spinal issues or just prevent
treatment?)

------
sillysaurus2
A protester in Kiev did an IAmA on Reddit:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1w17qn/iama_protestor_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1w17qn/iama_protestor_in_kyiv_ukraine/)

According to him, "Russia is trying to keep all the former Soviet Union
satellite countries under control, and that is the root cause of the rioting."

~~~
higherpurpose
They've already lost Moldavia recently, and didn't they lose Georgia, too? I
don't think they can keep them under control much longer.

~~~
Mikeb85
> They've already lost Moldavia recently, and didn't they lose Georgia, too?

The Rose Revolution gang were ousted in the most recent elections in
Georgia...

~~~
tomh
And former Georgian President Saakashvili is coming to the USA to teach, as a
Senior Statesman: [http://fletcher.tufts.edu/News-and-
Media/2013/12/20/Presiden...](http://fletcher.tufts.edu/News-and-
Media/2013/12/20/President-Mikheil-Saakashvili-of-the-Republic-of-Georgia-to-
Join-Fletcher-School-as-Senior-
Statesman?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=Saakashvili)

~~~
Mikeb85
Of course he is. It was always known that he was just a US stooge, and didn't
look out for his people's interests.

------
jwr
Did anyone else notice how refreshing this kind of reporting feels after being
used to what the mainstream media feeds us?

This story is low-key, trying to present all aspects, trying to stay objective
-- it's been a long time since I read something like this from a journalist.

~~~
adobriyan
Note, he wrote story in English to make it repostable in western internets, so
to influence public opinion in necessary way, namely, "people came out against
Yanukovich".

You know, kinda push our western friends to intervene.

~~~
dmytrish
I follow Varlamov's elucidation of the events and I must say that his blog is
very influential in Russian segment of the internet and it deserves this. So
he published the translation after multiple requests.

------
nate_meurer
The photography here is absolutely incredible.

This situation is really frightening to me. I so hope that the Ukraine can get
out from underneath her oppressors (yes I mean Yanukovitch and Putin) without
descending any further into chaos.

~~~
aquadrop
Ukraine isn't under oppression from Yanukovitch and Russia. Current president
of Ukraine won last elections being in opposition, after revolution of 2004
showed that nothing changed. But as last government could do any good, current
is also considered bad (by people). The core problem is Ukraine consists of
two parts - East and West. Both parts are about the same size and population.
West part gravitates to west and east part gravitates to Russia. That's
understandable, east part has many ties with Russia, because it's almost the
same people (same history till 1350-1400 CE) with hundreds years living near.
There's families divided by border, they often go to visit each other, there's
economical ties etc. Of course Russia wants to see Ukraine as a friend.
Imagine Canada would decide to go into union with China and shut down it's
border for USA. That's kinda similar. Anyway, Ukraine stays being two-headed
and I don't know how all that will end, but I hope they will find good
solution.

~~~
marcosdumay
You know, that kind of stuff does not happen at all when people are not under
oppression.

No population want to go over the police and fight. No big group of people
want to kill their neighbours just beause they are in uniforms, neither want
to die fighting them. Whatever place and culture they have.

------
tsurantino
One thing really stood out to me about this protest, and that is how isolated
and targeted it is against government. The writer mentioned how no shopkeepers
are affected, and that protesting is specifically barricaded around the
government district.

Irrespective of the violence and damage taking place, that there is no
collateral means that we can't detract from the focus of the issue.

~~~
desireco42
That is very hard to believe :) and naive assertion, all reports point out to
very aggressive 'protesters' that attack security forces to provoke their
reaction and that whole nature of protest is changing towards violence and
aggression.

~~~
spikels
Do you have a dog in this fight?

Read the post then if you disagree present some evidence. What "all reports"?
Here's a balanced one that disagrees with your claim:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/world/europe/ukrainian-
pre...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/world/europe/ukrainian-president-
offers-top-posts-to-opposition-leaders.html?hp&_r=0)

By 'protestors' do you mean they are not protestors? If so what are they?

I suspect you get all your information from Russian government sources. Right?

------
solyanyk
The comments here are truly amazing!

People who never had to protect their constitutional freedoms or human rights
against a real, brutal, force, who were simply lucky enough to be born in
places with long and established traditions of democracy (something their
ancestors actually did have to struggle for), smugly judging people who risk
their lives standing up for their values in place where human rights meant
nothing for centuries. "OMG people are so easy to manipulate", "This smoke is
damn unpleasant, is it really necessary?", "Can't they just talk to each other
like normal people"...

Unbelievable.

------
mladenkovacevic
Reading stuff like this is a wonderful way to remind me how naive and easy to
manipulate people generally are.

~~~
csomar
I can't upvote this enough. People do indeed believe in revolutions, and
thinks by burning stuff that wealth will be made.

3 years later (Tunisian here), we found out that it's not a revolution. The
dictator might have been ousted by external agencies. While the protests are
legit, the outcome is not.

This made me a new opinion: You can have power over another entity by using
damage (burning, and crashing stuff). But this won't create power, let alone
structure or wealth.

A good example is Libya, where the situation is moving fast into Somalia
despite having large oil reserves.

~~~
mladenkovacevic
Welcome to reality my Tunisian friend. I'm sorry its not more positive because
I'm sure you were promised much better.

Yes my country had a "revolution" like this too. I myself was in the streets
banging pots and pans and standing up to cordons of riot police. When it was
all over, and "real democracy" took over, the country was sold to German banks
company by company, factory by factory. Its still in the process of being sold
in exchange for the glimmer of hope that we might one day join the glorious EU
and its "reasonable" interest rates. That revolution that I really believed
would bring about change? It turns out it cost about 100,000 USD to promote it
and organize buses to truck people in and equip them to burn a bunch of stuff.

~~~
dualogy
As a German (not a banker), I'm very curious what country you're from..

------
PavlovsCat
A lot of things and links here:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/](http://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/)

A fixed cam view of a part of maidan, online 24/7 so far:
[http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan/pop-
out](http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan/pop-out)

and last, but not least:

[http://www.ustream.tv/channel/press-
club](http://www.ustream.tv/channel/press-club) <\- the live coverage is
spotty, but do look for "olya" in the sidebar (you have to click "more" for
them to show up) for some guided tours around maidan and interviews with
protesters by an english speaking journalist. Highly recommended.

There are of course many more feeds and videos, but you will find them all in
the above subreddit (in /r/europe and /r/worldnews, too)

------
TerraHertz
A couple more links from a Ukrainian lady I greatly respect.
[http://www.elenafilatova.com/](http://www.elenafilatova.com/)
[http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/maydan....](http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/maydan.html)

Who remembers 'Chernobyl Gal? The biker who takes solitary rides through the
Chernobyl closed zone, and publishes photo journals of them. These are her
sites.

From an entirely different angle, there's probably a lot of truth in this
person's comments too: [http://www.barnhardt.biz/2014/01/23/ukraine-you-
better-pay-a...](http://www.barnhardt.biz/2014/01/23/ukraine-you-better-pay-
attention-because-it-thats-how-its-going-to-play-out-here/)

------
PavlovsCat
[http://www.neweasterneurope.eu/articles-and-
commentary/1061-...](http://www.neweasterneurope.eu/articles-and-
commentary/1061-open-letter-from-ukrainian-writer-yuri-andrukhovych)

> When darkness falls on Kyiv, unidentified groups of “people in civilian
> clothes” roam the city, hunting for the young people, especially those who
> wear the symbols of the Maidan or the European Union. They kidnap them and
> take them out into forests, where they are stripped and tortured in fiercely
> cold weather. For some strange reason the victims of such actions are
> overwhelmingly young artists: actors, painters, poets. One feels that some
> strange “death squadrons” have been released in the country with an
> assignment to wipe out all that is best in it.

And while the upvotes for the story climb, the story itself drops slowly but
surely off the front page, because a killswitch has been toggled, because "HN
is not for politics", _not even a revolution with unprecedented live coverage
on the internet._ i.e. a new development.

When some guy in the tech scene -- not an engineer or hacker or anything, a
marketing guy for a tech firm -- dies, the story being completely unrelated to
technology, that's okay, the discussion may take it's course, going off a
billion tangents because otherwise there would be nothing to talk about. He's
"one of us", after all. Are those young people not also of us? Is one single
frontpage slot, out of thirty, too much to ask, for people to discuss and
share information?

Shameful.

------
vitalique
Two things that especially amaze about the actual 'street part' of Ukrainian
revolution are complete absence of plundering or looting of local shops and
that no firearms have been used by protesters.

~~~
deletes
I think mostly because the protest are very localized. Apart from that street,
the city( and country ) is operating as usual. Shops and businesses are
operating and civilians are going to work. The protest are mostly after work
activity. That is why the largest fights take place in the evening and night.

~~~
vdaniuk
^^ This comment is misinformation.

More than 10 regional administrations are currently under control of
protestors and there are mass protests in most regional centers in Ukraine.

This is a map of protests. [http://inspired.com.ua/wp-
content/uploads/2014/01/oda-map-26...](http://inspired.com.ua/wp-
content/uploads/2014/01/oda-map-26_01_15_00.jpg)

Legend: Red means regional administration buildings are under control of
protestors. Pinkish are regions where protestors block the administration
buildings of were unsuccessful at capturing them. Brownish? means mass
protests are occurring.

~~~
deletes
_^^ This comment is misinformation._ You didn't post any proof, so you see,
anyone can do that.

According to you, half of the country is involved in the protest and not going
to work( >20 million !!), I highly doubt that the whole country is at halt. I
have only seen and read about protest in the very center of Kiev. Around of
the Independence Square, Hrushevsky Street and its neighboring streets. All I
stated was posted in the foreign media and blogs( truthful or not ),
unfortunately I don't have the time to backtrack and search to provide the
necessary links.

I would love to hear some reliable information to confirm any statements.

------
altero
I wonder if somebody actually read EU treaty (reason for all this protests).
Signing it would pretty much kill industry and criple agriculture at Ukraine.

~~~
prostoalex
Can you point to specific paragraphs that would do such things?

~~~
altero
For start Ukraine treaty does not handle subsidies. So France and other
countries would be able to 'dump' their subsidized agricaltural product on
Ukranien market. Ukraine farmers do not get subsidy, they have higher prices
and would eventually bankrupt.

Industry is concetrated on east and exports/imports mainly to Russia. EU would
make it very hard to trade with Russia. Factories could not sell product and
could not import materials.

Joining EU is long process which takes years of negotiation. Poland is good
example. But just signing whatever EU throws your direction is very bad deal.

~~~
prostoalex
> For start Ukraine treaty does not handle subsidies.

Article 32.1 states: "Upon entry into force of this Agreement, no Party shall
maintain, introduce or reintroduce export subsidies or other measures with
equivalent effect on agricultural goods destined for the territory of the
other Party." And then it relegates the finer details to WTO treaties, which
Ukraine already signed.

> EU would make it very hard to trade with Russia.

Which part of the agreement would make it difficult?

~~~
altero
So EU is abolishing agricultural subsidies?

EU would set import tax on stuff imported from Russia.

------
higherpurpose
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution
inevitable." \- John F. Kennedy

You'd think oppressive leaders would learn that lesson by now. But no, it
seems we're more likely doomed to repeat it in cycles, over and over again. I
wonder what those politicians who come up with the idea of "hey, let's make
protesting virtually impossible. That will all our problems!".

They need to understand that protesting is that an _effect_ of a cause. If the
cause isn't fixed, those issues and frustrations the people have won't just go
away. They will build up, until they explode.

~~~
TerraHertz
Given the character of the president as described here
[http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/maydan....](http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/maydan.html)
(by someone who's opinion I trust) I strongly doubt the man has the capability
to learn anything, let alone lessons from history.

------
tiatia
There are two forces clashing. US supported groups (That basically want
Ukraine to be part of the EU) and Pro Russian groups (supported by good ol'
Putin). Let's hope it all ends well.

This is the Bozo who thought it all up: [http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-
Chessboard-Geostrategic-Impe...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Chessboard-
Geostrategic-Imperatives/dp/0465027261)

~~~
bluekeybox
It's an (somewhat distorted) oversimplification to call this a Cold-War style
chess game. Both groups are authentic, i.e. people in Western Ukraine
genuinely feel closer to the West while people in Eastern Ukraine genuinely do
feel closer to Russia. The US influence is nearly non-existent (if you
discount Hollywood movies of course) while Russia exerts _very_ significant
influence by placing economic pressure (such as banning imports from
"misbehaving" countries that were formerly a part of the USSR), providing PR
expertise to Russian-supporting political parties, and so on.

~~~
tiatia
I agree that Ukraine is a divided country. This being said: Just recently a
newspaper in Beijing had a comic showing the Ukraine as a car. Uncle Sam was
shown trying to stir the stirring wheel. This gives you an idea.

Trust me, the US has a strong strong interest of the Ukraine breaking away
from US influence.

~~~
bluekeybox
> the US has a strong strong interest of the Ukraine breaking away from US
> influence

Sure it does. However, don't you understand that _all_ runner-up or would-be
superpowers (China, Russia, etc) have a vested interest in portraying US
influence as being the driving force behind anything bad happening anywhere?

> Just recently a newspaper in Beijing had a comic showing the Ukraine as a
> car. Uncle Sam was shown trying to stir the stirring wheel. This gives you
> an idea.

So that's where you get your news from? How about you learn some Ukrainian and
find out what the actual situation is on the ground?

~~~
tiatia
Since I live in Beijing. Yes.

------
menato
Just for comparison: alternative photo set of same Kiev in the same time:
[http://tema.livejournal.com/1589937.html](http://tema.livejournal.com/1589937.html)

Photography is a great thing: with a proper selection one could change opinion
of viewer pretty strong.

------
girvo
Wow. That photography is mind blowing, as is the entire situation. I hope the
small number of casualties remains low as it has. Also, props to them for not
looting the businesses on the front line, usually that seems to be what
happens! But this seems different, somehow.

~~~
bluekeybox
It's different because, unlike OWS, this is not an "eat the rich" protest.
This is a protest against an authoritarian foreign power imposing its will on
what (briefly) has been an independent country.

------
desireco42
Stunning photography.

What I see here is large scale destruction of presumably their city by it's
citizens. I don't see how anything good can come out of mass hysteria and
destruction.

Edit... I don't believe for a moment and based on numerous other reports in
the media, that assertions about peacefulness of this protest are true or
represent anything but something that poster would like to be. Doesn't sound
likely and no-one else is reporting it, so most likely is wishful thinking.

~~~
abrahamsen
Tire burning is not really large scale destruction. From the livejournal
entry:

1."They destroyed the whole city"

Not true. All of the action you see in the pictures are happening on a small
square near the entrance to a Dinamo stadium. This is a government sector,
there is no intereference in peaceful life outside of this area. If you make
an analogy with Moscow, imagine that the barricades are someone in the area of
Ilinka or Varvarka, near the president's administration. Sure, it's the
center, but regular Moscovites wouldn't notice. There is dark smoke and fire
on all pictures: those are mostly burning tires. There is not tangible damage
to the buildings. Unfortunately one store burned down last night near the
barricades, resulted from a poorly thrown molotov cocktail. Even the statue of
Lobanovsky, located in the epicenter of fighting has been covered with cloth
to prevent damage. Overall, the protesters are very careful regarding
property. They've take apart fences and benches, but no windows are broken,
noone is vandalizing, and all looters are caught and beaten. So the picture is
pretty apocalyptic, but things are not so bad.

3\. "The entire Kiev is paralyzed, there is no peaceful life for the regular
people."

Kiev is living its own life. All stores and cafes are working, people are
going to work, study in universities, get married, divorce and even die their
own death. Most of the Kiev populace are not inconvenienced. Imagine if
Navalny took over the Red Square and set up his camp there. What would change
for you, Moscovites? Nothing. So the only people who are inconvenienced are
toruists. A few stores and cafes had to close down in the very center. Also,
those living in the center have troubles with logistics. But the entire Kiev
is not paralyzed.

~~~
dodyg
True this. I live in Cairo at this moment. It's similar here.

I visited Kiev three years ago. It is a beautiful city.

------
dodyg
Greetings from Cairo. I will you all good luck in Ukraine, especially in
Maidan Sq.

------
znowi
Ukraine has been historically divided into pro-West Ukraine in the west and
pro-Russia Ukraine in the east. I think the only peaceful resolution to this
conflict is having two independent states.

~~~
bluekeybox
Actually there is (or at least use to be) an idea of "progress". The hope was
that people in the predominantly Russian-speaking Eastern regions would
eventually "convert" politically to a pro-European direction because a primary
driver of the pro-Russian leanings (other than cultural factors) was a
positive memory of industrialization by the USSR which brought them jobs and a
better way of life. The idea was that the older generation who remembered the
glory of the USSR would eventually become replaced with a less Russia-centric
one. Unfortunately this hasn't exactly played out to the extent it was hoped
for.

------
Mikeb85
The reality distortion field the protesters have formed is impressive. They've
completely overshadowed a few key points:

\- The Yanukovych government offered a power-sharing agreement with the
opposition, offering Yatsenyuk the PM position and Klitschko the deputy PM
job, which the opposition rejected: [http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-
oppositions-rejects-vik...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-
rejects-viktor-yanukovych-s-concessions-1.2509259)

\- The fascist element - one of the opposition leaders, Oleh Tyahnybok, leads
a fascist party (Svoboda) and has openly spread anti-Semitic rhetoric, and
aligned itself with extremist groups. Fairly common knowledge to anyone in the
know... You can see the fascist and neo-nazi symbols on many of the
protesters.
[http://en.ria.ru/images/18519/41/185194148.jpg](http://en.ria.ru/images/18519/41/185194148.jpg)
The flags with 3 fingers are Svoboda's symbol, the red and black ones are UPA
flags, which are the symbol of a group that collaborated with the Nazis, and
are used by fascist groups in Ukraine.

\- The protesters have been the most violent force during the protests. In
what country do police stand by when Molotov cocktails and fireworks are fired
at them?
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h22oHs3eiLg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h22oHs3eiLg)

\- And finally, Yanukovych was not only democratically elected, but because of
the split amongst the opposition factions, the PoR will likely win any
election that is devoid of outside interference... After the 'Orange
Revolution' the opposition united with Yushchenko, now there's 3 large
opposition groups (Fatherland, 'Punch', and Svoboda). Considering half the
country firmly supports the Party of Regions, the opposition are unlikely to
win anything.

Edit - more fascist imagery at the protests:
[http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-
maidan1.jp...](http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-maidan1.jpg)
[http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-
maidan2.jp...](http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-maidan2.jpg)

Edit2 - the Svoboda/Oleh Tyahnybok fascist/anti-Semitic connection:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTjezCzo-
BQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTjezCzo-BQ)

[http://www.ibtimes.com/svoboda-rising-spectre-neo-nazism-
ukr...](http://www.ibtimes.com/svoboda-rising-spectre-neo-nazism-
ukraine-974110)

These are the words of Oleh Tyahnybok: "They did not fear, but took up their
automatic rifles, going into the woods to fight Muscovites, Germans, Jewry and
other filth which wanted to take away our Ukrainian nationhood. It’s time to
give Ukraine to the Ukrainians. Like them, you are most feared by the Moscow-
Jewish mafia which today runs Ukraine"

[http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/oleg-
tyanhybok....](http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/oleg-
tyanhybok.jpg)

~~~
cdash
So the protesters have been more violent? Then why are there more of them dead
than there are police and why are there more of them injured than police?

~~~
Mikeb85
If you followed the news and read both sides, you'd see that there are dead
policemen, and hundreds that are injured.
[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-
prote...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-protests-
police-officer-shot-dead-as-violence-continues-in-kiev-despite-
concessions-9084097.html)

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLuvsXLQHBM](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLuvsXLQHBM)

~~~
PavlovsCat
On the other hand, there are things like this: (warning, NSFW)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0zD3pOG-
Tk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0zD3pOG-Tk)

This is also "lovely", police taking a protester from a hospital:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eqi6anWpqc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eqi6anWpqc)
now _that_ , my friend, are injuries.

And here you can see Berkut beating a man to death about whom they later
claimed he jumped off the roof to escape arrest:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaC_9ImEGfQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaC_9ImEGfQ)

Then there are these laws: [http://craphound.com/images/dictatorship-
en.jpg](http://craphound.com/images/dictatorship-en.jpg)

If you're worried about fascists, you should also be worried about those in
power in that country, and the fact that you're peddling their propaganda.

------
kolev
I am sorry, but this isn't a revolution! The protesters are a minority.
Democracy works differently - at least there are free elections in Ukraine!
Joining the EU or not should be decided by a referendum, not by a few
criminals destroying the the city and turning it into a shithole! I only
wonder why Europe is excited to welcome barbarians and neo-nazis who beat up
and set police officers on fire! Well, it's easy to play a man when you know
the police officers are ordered not to carry guns and not to respond to
provocations! Also, a lot of people don't know that George Soros is fueling
this along with the US - they don't even shy away of hiding this fact! The
video with the arrested naked guy that has circulated also hides an important
detail - the guy poured flammable liquid on himself and wanted to set himself
on fire, yet, the journos are saving these details and only let you see what
works best for them! I am really disgusted by seeing this shortly after Syria,
where the US is, again and again, on the wrong side! Why didn't the US
condemned Turkey's actions against the protesters there? Well, Turkey is an
ally! Why isn't US condemning the way gay people are treated in Saudi Arabia?
Well, Saudi Arabia is an ally! Yeah, make a boxer a president, and good luck,
Ukraine! Or good luck joining the sinking ship of the EU! When Euroscepticism
is becoming more stronger of a movement by every day passing and some are
considering leaving the EU, others want to join! Again, good luck!

------
koshak
I'm very sorry that our slavic neighbours behave so badly. It is not a
revolution, it's the rampage of anarchy and laziness. Just another approval of
the 95% rule. Ukraine has no strong elite. People who come to power are just
short-sighted beggars. They see the golden antelope and ask her for gold, more
gold[1]. And finish like the greedy raja. That's obvious and predictable.

It's the greatest diplomatic failure to push dumb poor people to power. Hi
there, western polittechnology! Look at Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Ukraine(so-
called "orange revo" in 2004 and now - just the same) Promote quasi-democracy
and push the weak leader to power. You'll get unstabilized entity, unable to
produce any decent products or services and... just.. repeat when it seems to
get a little stronger than needed?!

If you want a real success story, read the fucking history of
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution)
Well that's the real deal. Just this for instance: "The Russian Empire, which
had withdrawn from the war in 1917 after the October Revolution, lost much of
its western frontier as the newly independent nations of Estonia, Finland,
Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland were carved from it. Romania took control of
Bessarabia in April 1918."

[1]
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWsP71Odht4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWsP71Odht4)

------
antonmks
More videos : government building takeover in Vinnitsa, Ukraine :
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi_B637FCDY](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi_B637FCDY)

------
ok_craig
Best quote: "war is war, but everyone needs to updates pics in social
networks"

------
fromdoon
Here in India, we have also witnessed a series of street agitations against a
corrupt political system that runs most of the country.

Though, It hasn't crossed the line, yet, and turned into violent protests like
Kiev.

There are many things which have happened in the 21st century, but the rise of
frequent civilian protests around the world is certainly the one that stands
out. I am not a student of history, but this is the first time I am becoming
more and more aware of such restlessness in the citizens of the world.

I guess, this is a kind of cycle. Political systems rise, become stable and
stay for some time and then slowly the rot begins, which when reaches a
certain tipping point, forces the masses to rise to make correction and then
the cycles repeats.

The only difference being the timeline of the cycle, which seems to differ
from region to region and from country to country.

I am sure there must be some literature/research dedicated to this phenomena.

------
nate_martin
Cached:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:59ucRnL...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:59ucRnLNiPIJ:zyalt.livejournal.com/984735.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

------
amurmann
Regardless who is in the right here, I don't understand why all the protesters
keep going to that square where all the cops are. One of those Molotov
cocktails they keep throwing could probably be used more efficiently anywhere
else in the city with so many cops in that one square. I am sure there must be
plenty of worthwhile targets that pretty much have their pants down right now.
Police stations, buildings associated with Yanukovich and his party... I am
sure there is any number of places where a few guys with molotovs could be
used better than at that battlefield of a square.

------
Oculus
I've been thinking about this all day. How could we, as hackers, build tools
that allow for such activist groups to organize online, but yet keep these
plans safe from the government?

------
_random_
This is not a revolution. The political type of society is not going to
change. The rioters are not supported by the population.

~~~
ajuc
Strange that Ukrainians I know all support it.

~~~
_random_
I know both kinds. What would you personally choose: a corrupt government or a
revolt that was designed by someone outside of your country with their own
agenda?

~~~
ajuc
How do you know it was designed by someone outside? And why does it matter
anyway? Do you seriosuly thing all these people protesting were paid by CIA?
For 3 months? Some of them - I agree. Just like some of them were paid by
Russia to make the protesters look bad. That's how politics go. In the end the
biggest group is still the people that came there cause they wanted to
protest. And don't you think they have valid reasons to protest?

Do you think what Yanukovych did is good or bad for Ukraine? I mean the whole
set of anti-demonstration and anti-press laws. It's almost martial law. Is it
OK with you? Better alternative to what exactly? Do you think he will let go
of the power by himself? Or are you ok with benevolent dictator for life? It's
how it always been in USSR, right? No point in leaving important matters to
people.

I was 6 when Poland become independent in 1989. I don't remember much, just
empty shelves gray people and standing with my mother in queues forever. But
my parents and the whole family do. Nineties was hard but in the end it all
worked out OK. Poland is much better place now. Do I care who started the
protests - nope. Do I think there were some foreign agencies and conspiracies
in this? Probably there were. Both Soviet and American. In the end regular
people decided. Soviets had the whole country, the army, press, censorship,
party, everything. Americans had radio free Europe and Hollywood movies to
"brainwash" us. And Russians were brainwashing us every bit as hard as
Americans, with schools, media, holidays, incentives to be a party memeber,
everything. Still couldn't hide the fact that system was broken by design and
worked worse every year.

People decided the revolution, not secret agencies.

------
KaiserPro
Whats interesting is that this view seems to tally fairly well with BBC's
world service's view.

------
kulesh
Vote it up on Reddit (I am not the one who posted the link over there, of
course).
[http://www.reddit.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fzyalt.livejour...](http://www.reddit.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fzyalt.livejournal.com%2F984735.html)

------
random123455
I would like to point to another perspective on what is happening. Like most,
i hope, i try to make my views fit to the events that have/are happening
rather than them being defined by my views. It seems that the protestors have
no other clear goal in mind except joining the EU, this is very hard for a
country like Ukraine where many people daily cross the border on their way to
work, what happens to them does not concern the protestors. I wonder if there
are Russians living in the west part of Ukraine, how violently would the
protestors deal with them. Because it seems that the protestors are driven by
their hatred towards not-signing the deal with Russia instead of EU. Also the
current government of Ukraine has support, it is not like the whole of Ukraine
has risen against it. But it is interesting that the ones who did in their
lines have nazi supporters. Still one thing is clear, Russia EVIL/BAD, EU
GOOD. Since these protestors are a bit on the violent side, what would happen
to a Russian or an Ukrainian who supports the government in the protestors
control area? They would probably feel their hatred on their own bodies. This
is not the first time that something like this is happening.And the EU/USA
always support the more radical parts of the society(with media, weapon
support etc..) often leading to ethnic cleansing, and suppression of rights of
some group of people. As in case with many countries where the west supported
someone. Iraq, the radicals are taking how many lives per year? Libya, how
many are suffering now since the intervention? Turkey and Kurds.Syria, somehow
the people who eat their enemies hearts got supported by the
USA/UK/GERMANY/TURKEY etc, and then they did not go in because of being
outsmarted by the Chinese and Russians, but somehow the media already twisted
it to seem that USA did not go to war because of Obama. The nations that have
lived under sanctions placed by your politicians, under governments who pushed
for your interests and promised growth and progress... The only thing that
grows is the hatred. If EU really practices what it speak, as it obviously
does not, and neither once are/were part of societies supported by the west
tolerant towards their fellow human,even if many years have passed. Are the
'evil' that had to be fought against. One only needs to check on the rights of
Serbs who are outside their ghettos our country. Who do not even have the
right for their written language.

The only thing EU needs is workforce, destroy Ukraine so they can get more
workforce/consumers who are capable of sustaining their own economy. Some
mention Baltic states as progress, because russians come and buy there since
it is cheaper. But if it really helped so much, why did you lose so much of
your population because of immigration to EU, is life hard but you have option
to get away? Is your economy not working? At least you have cheaper products
because yours were not protected by your politicians and had to close down
because they can not compete?

It seems that one more part of society who are driven by hatred is supported
by the civilized and superior leaders of the world to who we should look up
to. I wonder when will they start directing their hatred on
Russians/Ukrainians who do not support their views?

Also, because of immigration in EU how much time do you have before the
radical parts of your societies collide inside your home countries?

Divide and conquer.

~~~
bluekeybox
> It seems that the protestors have no other clear goal in mind except joining
> the EU

Incorrect, the main goal is to prevent the current government mafia allied
with government-connected industrial oligarchs in Donetsk region to become
even less representative and even more Russian-controlled.

> I wonder if there are Russians living in the west part of Ukraine, how
> violently would the protestors deal with them.

So far the protests were targeting the government, not civilians. This is a
very good thing.

> Because it seems that the protestors are driven by their hatred towards not-
> signing the deal with Russia instead of EU

Again, incorrect, the protests are driven by resentment against the current
tightly-connected pro-Russian ruling elite.

> nazi supporters.

There is indeed a party with extremely right-wing views that regularly
receives up to 8-10% of the vote. However it is questionable as to whether
that portion of the population actually holds those beliefs or simply uses
them as signaling to antagonize Russia.

> And the EU/USA always support the more radical parts of the society(with
> media, weapon support etc..)

Current Western support is nearly non-existent while that of Moscow is
extremely significant and some would say heavy-weight.

~~~
random123455
>Incorrect, the main goal is to prevent the current government mafia allied
with government-connected industrial oligarchs in Donetsk region to become
even less representative and even more Russian-controlled

It is just a coincidence that that seems to align with the EU goals. Hatred
and emotions have nothing to do with what is happening and noone is using
anyone.

>So far... < the key word

>Again, incorrect, the protests are driven by resentment against the current
tightly-connected pro-Russian ruling elite.

Whose actions are sparked by what is viewed by them as not-signing the deal
with Russia instead of EU, because it seemed like the final step of evil
controlled Ukrainian government stepping closer to Russia. Who it self is lead
by a dictator like Putin. Unlike the benevolent EU.

>There is indeed a party with extremely right-wing views that regularly
receives up to 8-10% of the vote. However it is questionable as to whether
that portion of the population actually holds those beliefs or simply uses
them as signaling to antagonize Russia.

I am sure that all others who also supported nazis also supported them for no
other reason but to antagonize someone else, ever. I realize that maybe you
are correct i should re-check the history of people who were antagonized by
nazis.

>Current Western support is nearly non-existent while that of Moscow is
extremely significant and some would say heavy-weight.

I fail to see how "Western", the civilized worlds support against corruption
and a puppet who is controlled by a tyrant like Putin is non-existent. It has
been running for how many years. Media support, pressure on the government and
so on, do not spread lies like those, Ukrainians will not know who helped them
later. It is not that there is no help it is just that there need to be found
more ways to help. Probably some help on the ground too would be good.
Putin/Russia/Russian EVIL, EU/US/NATO GOOD.

------
washedup
I have no idea what is going on in Kiev, but these images are amazing.

------
spovzner
FYI:
[https://twitter.com/search?q=%23digitalmaidan](https://twitter.com/search?q=%23digitalmaidan)

------
DonGateley
The age of the fighters is truly impressive. In the U.S. it would be kids.

That makes it look a whole lot more serious to me.

------
f_salmon
How well are these events being reported in the media (US), in your view?

------
shangxiao
Reading this to the tune of Louis Armstrong's Wonderful World

------
epicureanideal
Thanks for the translation!

------
mxpxrocks10
pretty nuts! thanks for posting!!

------
twobits
All these "revolutions", are foreign secret agencies' creations.

..Downvote all you want, and ask for impossible to find evidence. Just read
history.

