
College to use RFID to check class attendance - duck
http://badgerherald.com/news/2010/05/04/ariz_college_to_posi.php
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philk
If students are able to learn material on their own then I really can't
understand why they should be forced to attend.

If they don't attend and can't learn the material then just fail them.

~~~
duck
I agree, but I never had a problem when some of my smaller classroom courses
took attendance. In that setting there was a value added that even if you
passed the class without going you missed a lot. However, lectures (which this
article addresses) in general never added any addition value over the
material, so this seems pointless.

~~~
Robin_Message
A lecture is a one-way process, so the it's up to the student if the lecture
is worthwhile for them or not. If it's not, they shouldn't attend. If no-one
attends, the lecturer needs training/putting out to pasture.

Like you say though, it makes sense for a class where you are expected to
participate, since then you will be teaching and learning from the other
students as much or more than the teacher.

The problem here is you, the student, have become part of the value
proposition of the class -- and the penalty against non-attendance is not the
school penalising you for reducing your own learning, but a discouragement
from reducing the learning of others, who the school promised a classroom full
of smart peers.

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argv_empty
I expect we're going to see a lot of students carrying each other's ID cards
to class.

~~~
angstrom
It's been going on for over 10 years already with barcode IDs in high schools.
Now you don't even see the person doing it because they can hide 2 or more
cards in a wallet and scan them all at once. The only tip would be a
suspiciously close time stamp if anyone cares to look.

A school setting is the worst environment you can possibly imagine trying to
secure anything, let alone attendance.

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tseabrooks
I'm not sure I 'get' the aims of the college here. Why is it important for
these students to be in class? I would expect the important bits from the
colleges perspective would be:

Did the student pay tuition?

Did the student learn the material the class covered?

I can't see any other things the university need worry about and I can't see
how either of those two questions could lead to the need for some strict
attendance policies that are connected to student grades.

Perhaps, the school is concerned that if people don't come to class and still
do well it will become common knowledge that students can learn the same
material more effectively on their own. Bad news, I think that cats already
out of the bag.

~~~
joezydeco
As a parent who plans to pay for my son's college education, I think I'd like
this system.

It's a lot harder for a student to whine "I'm failing this class! This biased
professor hates me!" while being able to discover that sonny-boy was only in
class 25% of the time.

~~~
philk
Tell your kids you'll only pay for classes they pass and don't accept any
excuses.

I never found lectures to be particularly useful anyway.

~~~
FluidDjango
> I never found lectures to be particularly useful anyway.

Nor I. You and I are _not_ the norm (evidence: we are on HN).

But I have taught in a community college in rural/bluecollar area where the
only hope that some students had of breaking out of their apathetic,
educationally-clueless family/community was to have instructor(s) who
_mentored_ them - that is connected personally.

 _Being present_ in class was not _sufficient_ for them to transcend the
crippling effects of their upbringings. But it was the first (and necessary)
step for those without other mentors in their lives.

[ Apologies for any arrogant sound in the above. Calling it like I have seen
it. ]

~~~
tseabrooks
Hmmm. I'm 26 and I still forget all the times my dad admonish me for
overestimating people. "You can't assume everyone else thinks like you do or
knows all the things you do".

I think the problem though is when you 'require' all students to be in class
as part of your grade. This is little different than classrooms in a high
school that are set up to help students falling behind that end up hurting /
punishing the top performing students.

------
Groxx
I'd get an RFID blocking wallet, and take photos to prove I was there. And I'd
encourage others to do the same. Going to classes where the lecture was
worthless (you know the ones: boring, nothing covered not in the book, tested
on book-knowledge only, etc) has _only_ hampered my education.

Something like this would encourage _every_ teacher to take attendance and
penalize those who don't come; I can only see that as something bad for
college. And, as others have pointed out, it doesn't _prove_ someone was
there. If anything it could give an easier way to slack, because you can point
at the time and say "see, I was there" if they say you weren't. And who will
the higher-ups believe? You, the teacher, or the timestamp? I'd be willing to
bet the teacher, as you could just give someone your card, making the whole
thing pointless.

No, the blocking wallet is too minor. I'd be willing to bet the security on
the RFID is minimal at best; I'd attempt to broadcast cards with an RF antenna
and a dish, so _everyone_ attends _every_ class.

------
adolph
File under your tax dollars (not) at work: "paid for by federal stimulus
money"

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gte910h
I don't care _how_ much value class attendance adds, students shouldn't be
tracked like cattle, especially not 18+ year olds.

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DeusExMachina
Every time I read of control system like this one, I always think about 1984
from George Orwell. That book really changed the way I look at things.

When all these systems will be in place, what will prevent some entity to use
them improperly? I really find these things scary when I look at them.

~~~
jacquesm
Orwell wasn't wrong, he was simply a little late.

The funny thing is that the countries best protected against this kind of
bull-shit are the former sov-block countries. They have seen what all this can
lead to in living memory, it seems to work like a vaccin.

------
kilian
Given that most of the time, attendance is checked anyway, _manually by the
teacher_ , I really don't see the big problem here. If there is an attendance
duty anyway, this is an excellent solution. It adds 10 minutes to each class
by not having to spend the time calling out names and awaiting a "present" or
"yea".

More time for education while replacing an old-fashioned, outdated system with
fancy "new" tech. Why the hate?

~~~
jimbokun
The underlying technology can be used for purposes other than checking class
attendance. As some of the concerned students note in the article, they could
probably construct a record of students locations on campus throughout the
day. Not difficult to imagine an administrator somehow abusing that
information.

If the RFID had an off switch, that might mitigate this concern. (Would be
frustrating, though, if you forgot to turn it back on before class and thus
did not get credit for attendance.)

~~~
kilian
That is suggesting the school will add RFID scanners on other places than
doorposts in classrooms. Certainly that is evil, but it also _isn't the case_
as of this moment.

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sireat
Almost inevitably the classes which required attendance(or granted some sort
of bonus) were the boring ones(bad lecturer, outdated concepts, unused
concepts, etc).

The interesting lecturers never had required attendance.

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nostoc
I would clone my RFID tag a few time and hide it _everywhere_ on campus.

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arihant
I remember a class at CMU where they used a Bluetooth based system.

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lurkinggrue
It's just getting people ready for the mark of the beast.

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pasbesoin
Am I bad for thinking of a covert reader, some spare cards, and a bit (ok, a
lot) of cloning? (Merely for purposes of promulgating false positive
locations; not for theft.)

I _think_ I'm still this side of legal, for merely thinking of such a scheme.
Next year, maybe not.

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kahawe
At my university we had to sign off on a sheet of paper for each class to
document we were there.

How does carrying around an RFID improve that? One could simply carry the chip
cards for his buddies to class or to protest the system just wrap all chip
cards in tin foil and claim the system obviously failed. This is much easier
than learning to fake signatures.

Apart from all that, as a student you should be mature enough to decide which
classes you have to attend and which ones you simply study for on your own.

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jamesbressi
I wonder if they are going to make students wear gold stars next?

This isn't high school, Northern Arizona University, grow up.

~~~
philk
_EDIT: LOL, I get down-voted on this comment along with the parent who said
they will be paying for their child's college soon and likes this system? That
is comical. You, who through the first stone, are one of those people that
must have structure and rules imposed on everyone because you have reformed
and you can only feel in control by abiding and making others do so. You, yes
YOU, made my day.

I have a feeling the other HNers will override your foolishness._

...and now I regret voting you back up.

~~~
joezydeco
And I'll vote you up too, because I'm that other guy that got downvoted.

I guess I'm just from a different era. The attitude seems to be "they cashed
my check, I can do what I want". Can't say that's totally a wrong attitude,
given how colleges in the US work these days. There's a big "don't care"
attitude on both sides of the fence now.

