
A Long, Ugly Year of Depression That’s Finally Fading - squiggy22
http://moz.com/rand/long-ugly-year-depression-thats-finally-fading/
======
karmajunkie
Man, there are a lot of diagnoses getting thrown around this thread. As a
caregiver to someone with a serious illness, as well as someone who
periodically suffers from many of the same mental and emotional issues raised
here... How about refraining from doing that unless you are A) a mental health
or otherwise trained medical professional; and B) someone who has actually
seen and assessed the patient. I'm not calling out anyone in particular
because let's face it, this is HN and we're probably all know-it-alls at one
time or another, but this can have some particularly pronounced thoughts and
effects on the posters who are getting the comments.

If you are dealing with any of these issues, my heart goes out to you. Please
reach out to a counselor, or at the very least a counselor or therapist who
specializes in the things you're dealing with. If you need help finding one,
my email is in my profile, i'm glad to help.

------
tst
I'm also recovering from a depression which lasted for quite a while. It
absolutely sucks because you think you're worthless, nobody loves you, you
can't get anything right and the best would be if you just wouldn't exist
anymore.

And on top of that you isolate yourself. I know how hard it was to ask for
help therefore I want to show you some things which helped me:

\- Realize that your depression is lying to you. It doesn't tell the truth. It
makes you believe that something is logical even if it isn't.

\- Read 'Feeling Good' \- terrible title, great book. It will probably work
better than average on the average HN reader because it takes a 'rational'
approach to depression (cognitive-behavioral therapy). It helps you to
recognize destructive thought patterns and how to deal with them.

\- Garbage in, garbage out. What works for computers also works for your body.
Yeah, you're a geek but you can eat some vegs instead of the 500th pizza. Also
working out (or other sports) are pretty great.

\- Long term: Therapy which tries to work on the root cause and not just at
symptoms.

Finally, here's a rather extensive list with lectures, books, exercises, etc.
which help dealing with depression [1]. Back when I was fed up with feeling
crap I created a spreadsheet with the 8 activities and tracked those every
day.

Note: Every person seem to react to differently. I read about people who
improved a lot by meditating - on the other hand, it didn't work for me.

So, try some things out and don't give up. You can beat that liar in your
head.

[0]: [http://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Good-The-Mood-
Therapy/dp/03808...](http://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Good-The-Mood-
Therapy/dp/0380810336)

[1]:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/getting_over_it/comments/1nd14u/the_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/getting_over_it/comments/1nd14u/the_best_stuff_i_have_gathered_to_help_me/)

PS: If you have any questions feel free to ask - if you want to send me a
private one write at <username> @ panictank.net

~~~
meh_master
I've been depressed for over ten years, I'm currently thirty years old.

I left my job in January due to depression, though I didn't tell anyone. I
haven't worked a day since then and am just living off savings as they
dwindle. I haven't spoken to any of my former co-workers who were my only
contacts in the Bay Area since I moved from the East Coast to work at a
startup. I've spent all day every day numbing myself with weed, porn, mindless
internet browsing, etc. I don't even code, every time I open up Xcode or
Android Studio I just end up doing nothing. And I honestly just don't want to
do anything.

The last time I went out socially was in January of this year and even that
was just with my then co-workers. And over the past ten and fifteen years it
hasn't been any different. I can count on one hand the number of times I've
been out socially over the past ten years that wasn't work related (and while
employed the number of times I went out with co-workers also number in the
single digits).

The isolation is what kills me. I haven't had sex in several years and haven't
had any intimate relationships in my entire life (the sex were just one
nighters and nothing more, and I've never had a "best friend", not even in
high school or middle school). Unlike a lot of people with depression, I don't
have friends, family (all on East Coast), or girlfriends (I've never had one).
I don't even talk with people online, not through FB, not anonymously on web
forums or instant messaging. In the past week the only people I've talked to
is the cashier at the local supermarket, and that was just to say I wanted a
bag and say "thanks see ya later". In fact this is the first time I've written
about depression online, I've only told a few people (my mom and a doctor)
that I even have it.

I've had a hard time dealing with it. I'm trying to get into meditation and
what not. But I mostly fear the effect of this extreme isolation. There's a
lot of evidence that it kills your brain (literally).

I'm reading a book called "The mindful way through Depression". I bought it
over two years ago and only started reading it two months ago. I'm still only
halfway through. The worst part of depression is that it saps my energy to do
anything, even when I do read the book I'll read several pages and not
remember a thing of what I read.

Sorry about the wall of text if anyone reads this, but it's 5:46 AM and I'm
not doing anything else. I haven't gone to sleep yet...I'm just mindlessly
browsing the web (I discovered a new TV show earlier today and am marathoning
it right now). Either way I still hold some optimism for the future.

~~~
thr0waway1909
I feel obliged to respond to this post since I've feel that you've basically
described my life. I quit my (soul-crushing) job three months ago and plan on
living off my savings until I manage to gather the energy to find another one
(or to kill myself). I'm 29 and never had a girlfriend either. I feel utterly
invisible to the opposite gender, as if there was some kind of unexplainable
communication gap that I never managed to cross, while everyone else
(including the countless couples of teenagers I see walking in the parks) just
seems to have moved past that. For me this is the thing that kills me the
most. I feel like I've wasted the best years in my life, and that because of
that and missing out on some basic experiences that most people share, I feel
extremely alienated from the rest of my peers. So I just fake it all. I lie
about my life. I live like an impostor, and when someone is about to uncover
that, I just run away or make up more excuses and lies.

I've got a few good friends, but they are far away. I've still got my family
though, but I haven't told them about my depression. I actually have told no
one except one friend, who was supportive but didn't really understand what
I'm going through. I've been depressed for as long as I can remember, since I
was a teenager I guess. Something like 10 years. I've also been thinking of
suicide for years now, on a weekly, sometimes daily and hourly basis. The
biggest problem is that I don't see the purpose of life. Most people will talk
about family (children), career, religion... Things that don't work for me. I
don't believe in any gods, I don't want any children (who would inevitably
inherit my shitty genes) and my career is nowhere near where I would have
wanted it to be, to the point that I was better off right out of college
because I was mentally more apt then than now that I'm burnt out. (And lost
almost all passion for programming)

I probably some form of ADD as well, because I've lost almost all ability to
focus when trying to work on programming projects.

Right now I'm far away from home, taking holidays in the sun, and trying new
hobbies. But nothing ever seems to stick (including meditation, which I've
failed to pick up many times now). I've met people, but ultimately there is
always a moment where I'm alone in a room and start wondering what is the
point of going through all that. Life is ultimately absurd and we're all gonna
die anyway.

Even writing this message feels utterly stupid. It's probably the worse answer
that one could write to your message. Usually when I write these kind of
messages, I tend to write them and immediately delete them because I feel so
silly and pathetic. For once I'm gonna hit the reply button anyway.

~~~
thr0w4wy33
I could have written something similar when I was in my late 20s.

My teenage years were filled with depression. My circle of friends consisted
of a handful of people I knew from IRC. My 20s consisted of a string of failed
business ventures. I was living at home. I had almost nothing in my bank
account. I had very few friends and I would inevitably sabotage every
friendship I had. I was overweight. I didn't have a girlfriend and had never
even experienced a kiss. I lost a parent and then lost a step parent. I felt
like the supposedly best years of my life were slipping through my fingers.

After being rejected by a girl I met online because of my weight/appearance, I
decided that getting in shape would help. Eventually I was able to lose weight
and I met a girl after attending a rare social event. I thought she was
perfect and we hit it off but after our first date she rejected me in a very
harsh way. I was devastated and decided to end my life.

I'll spare the details but I spent considerable time researching. I purchased
the instrument of my demise. I wrote letters to the few people who I thought
would care apologizing for my shortcomings.

Before I took what I believed would be the solution to my pain I took all of
the money I had from a gig and went on a solo trip overseas. The first night I
cried myself to sleep. I literally walked everywhere until the heels of my
feet bled. I talked to some people I met and had a wonderful experience that
reminded me good can enter your life in the most unexpected of ways and at
unanticipated times. But most of my travels were in my mind.

My pain didn't end when I came back but I didn't end my life. Today I am in
much better financial shape but I don't feel I have lived up to my potential
and I'm still very much a procrastinator. I still don't have many friends. I
have a girlfriend although anyone in a relationship can tell you they look
easier than they are. There are days when I feel lost or like an impostor. I
still have more regrets than I can count. I am currently mourning the loss a
pet who I considered one of my best friends.

You're not silly or pathetic. I don't know what the purpose of life is either.
Life _is_ absurd and undeniably impermanent. I don't have any advice to give
but if I could suggest one thing, it's that absurd, impermanent things aren't
inherently worthless and incapable of providing happiness. "Nothing matters
anyway" is as much an invitation to experiment with life and live it without
worry or expectation as it is to give up on it.

~~~
wbhart
Human beings are wired to find intrinsic value in certain things. Art, music,
puzzle solving, beauty, achievement, scientific knowledge, friendship, fine
tasting food, travel experiences, charity work. Even life itself has some
intrinsic value that we recognise. Ultimately none of these things has
permanence and the pursuit of them all is absurd in some sense.

All of these are things that transcend our animal needs and desires. We value
them not because of their ultimate usefulness or their needfulness, but
because they have intrinsic value. Not ultimate value, but intrinsic value
nonetheless.

Trying to fill your life with as many nice experiences as possible before you
die only exaggerates the impermanence of our physical lives. And striving to
"leave a legacy" for future generations can distract us from the intrinsic
value of things that only we can experience and appreciate, and necessarily
only in our lifetimes.

I'm absolutely desperate for the New Horizons spacecraft to finally arrive at
Pluto next year. I'm going to look at every photo that thing sends back and be
thrilled at having lived at precisely the right time to see it. And I'm going
to keep looking and soaking it in until I am sick of that sucker. I'll read
every article on it. Not because I think that it's going to have any meaning
in the broader framework of my life (I'm not a planetary scientist), but
because that will be an experience only people in my generation can have. To
me, that rock will be beautiful, no matter how ugly and devoid of life it
looks.

The same is true of a day's work. Any such day is probably meaningless. But at
the end of it you can look at what you've done and derive satisfaction from
it. Not permanent satisfaction, so that you don't have to do it all over again
tomorrow. But real satisfaction that _only_ you can experience.

Once I read a geology textbook, and learned about how the mountains are pushed
up by continental shelves pushing together and worn down by erosion. Layers of
sediment get uplifted. Earthquakes cause faults, and so on. After reading
enough, I actually started to lose the sense of the beauty of mountains. All I
saw was mechanical processes at work.

But this didn't last. Eventually, my innate sense of beauty captivated me
again, so that when I look at mountains I am filled with wonder and a deep
sense of awe. This despite the fact that I still know precisely how they got
there, scientifically speaking.

I'm unsure whether the intrinsic value there is in the mountain itself or in
my appreciation of it. But for that moment when I can actually visit a
mountain, when I can actually have that experience, I appreciate that beauty.

But somehow, sitting around all day looking at photos of beautiful mountains,
or even living right under one, isn't going to make me enjoy the rest of my
life. The mountain is an experience I get to have irregularly. In this way,
the intrinsic value of that experience catches me by surprise.

I even think that if I got on an aeroplane tomorrow to fly to a mountain to
see it, I wouldn't be that affected by it. I'm sure we can do many things to
increase our enjoyment of life, but I think that we have to be careful of
believing that if we keep feeding experiences to ourselves we'll keep enjoying
them. Treasured experiences can be very opportunistic. They depend on a happy
coincidence of circumstances which I am uniquely able to appreciate at that
time and place.

------
dchuk
I guess I'll be the only person to comment on the actual Moz business
struggles rather than the depression side of this post. Moz raised their money
at a really tricky time because it was right before Google essentially bent
over the SEO industry. When Rand mentions the Content tool that hasn't even
started being developed, that was something that was supposed to take your
Google Analytics keyword referrer data and match it to your content and your
rankings and your links and your competitors and basically help you spot
keywords and content you can easily rank better for.

The timeline seems to be matching up where they had this plan for this tool
before any of the Google SSL stuff started, so as they started working on the
design and UX of it, Google started rolling out the SSL stuff and it basically
ruined their idea. Moz ended up adding tools to try and guess what keywords
made up your "(not provided)" data but that's a far cry from what they were
originally planning.

I'm basing this entirely on being heavily involved in the SEO industry around
the times mentioned in Rand's article and having even run a successful SEO
SaaS product (which is still going even though I've moved on to other
projects). I just remember seeing screenshots of what they wanted to build and
thinking "wow, if they can nail this, it will be great". I wanted to build a
similar app. But when Google started hiding all organic keyword data in
analytics, I distinctly remember saying "Well there goes Moz's whole new
product".

Google really fucked the SEO world up with their (not provided) move. Think
what you will about SEO but it's still a legitimate marketing channel and I
really have never been able to understand why Google thinks it's ok to not
share your organic keyword data but your paid keyword data is totally fine to
share with site owners.

But not much anyone can do about that now I suppose.

~~~
josephjrobison
Thanks for commenting on the actual business struggles - I found that missing
here too.

I have watched Moz very closely for the last 3 years as well and was not super
delighted by Moz Analytics, and this sheds some more light on it now. I do
love their Moz Academy though, that was a big improvement.

On the content tool - why do you think they couldn't pull in Webmaster Tools
keyword data instead of the GA keyword data? Not as accurate, but 75% of the
way there. They could have also matched up rankings to content pages to still
make a cool tool. I imagine they are 80% there on a bunch of features like
this but just haven't finished them. Possibly related to the comment on Rand's
high potential/low performance (although that take a team and that quote is
quite deterministic).

~~~
dchuk
Well they certainly can do that now, I just think that that's not what they
were planning on doing originally and with all the other dev problems they ran
into, they couldn't pivot fast enough to the new data source.

I think they're just facing a lot of growing pains in trying to become a Big
Company in an industry (SEO) that is getting rocked year by year by Google.
That's why they're trying to change to "inbound marketing" with a more
balanced focused on social, seo, etc. I don't think they're necessarily wrong
for doing that, I just don't think the market they're targeting is big enough
personally.

The thing about the recent Google updates for Analytics and Penguin/Panda is
that it knocked a ton of beginner or amateur SEOs out of the park. Basically
the guys who dabbled in Grey Hat, thought Black Hat was cool but didn't know
how to do it right, and fed on as much White Hat stuff as they could to
"protect" themselves from the big G. When Google rocked all of their sites,
most of them just gave up - I saw this directly in my subscriber numbers after
a big penguin update - leaving the pure White Hat guys and the Black Hats.

The Black Hats don't give two shits about Moz and most openly deride them
because they either build their own tools or plain just don't care. So that
really just leaves the White Hats, which is a tough road to follow when you
ultimately have no control over the algorithm.

~~~
AznHisoka
"I just don't think the market they're targeting is big enough personally."

Last I checked Hubspot will be filing an IPO with close to 1 billion dollars
market cap.

Hootsuite also will be approaching 1 billion market cap when they file their
IPO.

~~~
dchuk
Hubspot has a very different client base and sales system than Moz does.
Hubspot sells their services and tools directly to small business owners and
it is not cheap at all. Moz sells to SEOs, of which there aren't a lot of and
the pool is drying up slowly every day.

------
jtbigwoo
>> ...“layoffs” is a Pandora’s Box-type word at a startup. Don’t use it unless
you’re really being transparent (and not just fearful and overly panicked as I
was).

I made a similar mistake once as a manager and experienced this kind of thing
more than once as an employee. Certain words like "layoffs" or "merger" are so
loaded because employees know that you know more than they do. Even if you
think you're being totally transparent, employees are correct to assume that
you're holding some things back because you are. It's your job to understand
the state and direction of the company and give your employees the information
they need to do their jobs. Employees, especially the smart ones, are going to
try to infer additional information from what you tell them even when you
think you've told them everything they need to know. Leaders need to be aware
that a certain amount of "Kremlinology" happens in every company.

He made things worse by being vague about the company's real situation and
contradicting himself a couple sentences later when he said, "...we'll survive
(though not with much headroom..." If he's talking about layoffs, who is this
"we"? Everybody? Rand and Sarah? If you're going to be transparent, you also
need to be specific and direct. A better approach might have been, "Sarah and
I modeled out some worst-case scenarios last week and this stretches our
break-even point an extra six months, which will constrain our growth."

------
Alex3917
> "the funny thing is, Marijuana doesn’t have any pain-killing properties. It
> just lessens tension, anxiety, and stress for some people."

Marijuana is an analgesic. But in this case the effects are stemming from the
fact that's its an anti inflammatory, so that the fluid in your disc is no
longer compressing the spinal nerves. And the fact that it reduces anxiety
also reduces inflammation even further, since anxiety is probably largely what
was causing the inflammation.

------
astockwell
Speaking purely to the experiences of building a new software product, I've
seen this exact story play out countless times. Everyone (except maybe the
engineers themselves) seems to think that designing a software product is part
of the "planning phase", and thus should happen before any time is "wasted" on
development:

> "That product planning led to an immense series of wireframes and comps
> (visual designs of what the product would look like and how it would
> function) that numbered into the hundreds of screens..."

The biggest contributor to this I've seen is the dozens (hundreds? thousands?)
of small ways that a design (done in a vacuum, without simultaneous
prototyping) will differ from established development patterns, frameworks,
and other pre-packaged solutions that engineers use daily to avoid reinventing
every wheel. And engineers respond with timelines that _expect_ to be able to
leverage those frameworks. Thus the dissonance begins.

One example: a design calls for a form to be broken across 4 pages. There may
be great aesthetic rationale or even user testing to support this, but that
means that in all likelyhood any framework (e.g. Rails/Flask/Play/etc, not to
mention native apps) will have to have additional modification to support
sessions, changes to validation, changes to the auth domain, persistence
changes, etc. And it's _not necessary_ for an MVP. And many times these
differences are much more subtle and deeply entrenched, and would require
rethinking much of the wireframes/designs to align with development patterns.
/rant

I'm not sure what the answer is here, except maybe that this is one more point
in favor of having a "technical founder" or in general a technical person with
decision-making authority, to avoid going down a road without proofing out
your ideas or timelines.

------
johnyzee
I love it when CEO's own up like this, it's probably one of the most appealing
traits in a leader I personally can think of. As long as they don't become too
insecure to actually lead, introspection and self-criticism are strengths, not
weaknesses. Besides, being aware of these traits and their negative
repercussions put you in a pretty good place, the ones who really suffer are
the guys who repress and deny the down slopes, always happy and bubbly on the
outside but in reality inches from a mental breakdown.

The last part about how stress causes physical health problems is very
important, and very overlooked. Besides the muscle and nervous tension the OP
mentioned, stress seriously reduces immunity which can manifest itself in a
myriad of unexpected ways (whichever subsystem fails first), from infections
to cysts and all kinds of nastiness.

------
x0x0
Wow, props to Rand for sharing this.

Rand, if you're reading this, two things occur: 1 - you're far from the first
person to go for big-bang software releases (though listening to your cto is
probably a good idea)

2 - in _Fooled By Randomness_ by Taleb (I believe, I could be misremembering)
he describes the incredible level of stress that monitoring his investments
daily created. I seem to recall the author writing that he simply was unable
to monitor them every day and instead had to only look at some periodic
summaries. Perhaps this may help people who get to mentally exhausted looking
at numbers daily? I mean, it's good to notice immediately if they crater,
though that can be scripted. Beyond that, there's probably not much value
looking at them 7 days a week that you don't get looking at them once every
seven days. I use the same technique on the elliptical machine; time _crawls_
if I look at the timer, so it's an exercise of will to go as long as possible
before looking.

Hope he's in a better place now.

------
gadders
One last comment - this post from Rand reminds me of the following from Ben
Horowitz:

"By far the most difficult skill for me to learn as CEO was the ability to
manage my own psychology. Organizational design, process design, metrics,
hiring and firing were all relatively straightforward skills to master
compared to keeping my mind in check. Over the years, I’ve spoken to hundreds
of CEOs all with the same experience. Nonetheless, very few people talk about
it and I have never read anything on the topic. It’s like the fight club of
management: The first rule of the CEO psychological meltdown is don’t talk
about the psychological meltdown."

[http://www.bhorowitz.com/what_s_the_most_difficult_ceo_skill...](http://www.bhorowitz.com/what_s_the_most_difficult_ceo_skill_managing_your_own_psychology)

------
raheemm
So few people and places can allow for this level of vulnerability and
authenticity. This post is going to help a lot of people.

I have even more respect for Rand and Moz. We can say Fail Fast, Fail this,
fail that ... but this kind of writing is the true embrace of failure,
learning, wisdom, humanity.

------
bocalogic
I respect Rand and give him a lot of credit for vocalizing his challenges.
Depression is a challenge and it can be overcome.

I am not a doctor, but I can tell you that a lot of my peers are suffering
from depression from business, marriage or just in general.

One thing I do know is that the world has changed a lot in the past decade.
The price of everything just keeps going up and we are constantly bombarded by
information. Humans are not built that way. There is no badge of honor for
being under stress 24/7\. It will catch up to you one way or the other.

Humans suffer from the fight or flight responses that we encounter during high
stress situations. The challenge is to digest it and make decisions not based
on fight or flight emotions.

The body produces cortisol when we are under duress and it is horrible for
you. It screws up everything with your body and your mind. One way to
counteract this is by working out, getting sunlight, eating the right foods
and staying off caffeine. Try some black or green tea instead.

30 minutes of working out will combat cortisol production for about six hours.
Even going for a walk helps a lot.

Most of the worlds brightest minds and most successful people suffer from
depression and knowing that your ARE NOT ALONE is a huge step forward.

You can beat depression and your life will turn around!

Talking about it and seeking help is definitely a step in the right direction.
Keep your chins up.

~~~
dceddia
You mentioned staying off caffeine, but recommended teas that both (usually)
contain caffeine. Not trying to be a jerk, but genuinely curious - is the
caffeine from tea better for the body than the caffeine from coffee? Or did
you mean decaffeinated types of tea?

~~~
wbhart
I also agree with the caffeine thing. The reason I stay off it is not so much
the immediate effect of caffeine on anxiety (I find none), but because
caffeine increases mania. Ultimately mania (dealing with life frantically)
causes the nervous system to respond poorly. And anxiety seems to be above all
a disproportionate reaction of the sympathetic nervous system. There is also
an effect on sleep regulation and a hard edge to withdrawal that can
exacerbate anxiety. Incidentally, chocolate contains a related compound, but
not caffeine itself. I've experimented with chocolate over what I would
consider to be statistically significant periods of time, and I honestly
couldn't detect any effect in moderation. Your mileage may vary.

------
mikeleeorg
This is an incredibly brave, and hopefully cathartic post by someone I greatly
admire. I really hope he is able to find the support and peace he needs.

As a bit of an aside, I wonder how much of this has led to similar troubles
for other founders:

 _When the Foundry investment closed, we redoubled our efforts to build Moz
Analytics. We hired more aggressively (and briefly had a $12,000 referral
bonus for engineers that ended up bringing in mostly wrong kinds of candidates
along with creating some internal culture issues), and spent months planning
the fine details of the product._

I've heard from friends & colleagues about the massive amount of pressure
they've felt after closing an investment round. While fundraising is already
an incredibly trying process, the next stage is sometimes even more difficult.

In contrast, other friends & colleagues who've opted for the bootstrapped
route (either by choice or circumstance) haven't seemed to face a similar
massive amount of pressure. Yes, they faced incredible stress too, but not to
the level of those that have raised capital.

This is merely an anecdotal observation made in my peer group. I don't mean to
imply that this is some kind of phenomenon. And clinical depression is
something that can cut through any kind of circumstance.

I just can't help but notice the stark difference in stress level of founders
who are growing organically & carefully vs founders who are in a mad
recruiting rush and sometimes hire the wrong kind of people. I wonder how much
of a relationship there is between having the right kind of people in your
company vs the wrong kind of people, and the stress level of a founder. I
would imagine a lot.

------
gadders
I admire what Moz has done and it was an interesting read.

My comment is more of a meta one about HN. Are we really that interested in
these stories of depression? We seem to get at least one a week. I realise
it's an issue that may affect people here, but I'm not sure if we need the
volume we are seeing now.

~~~
DanBC
We see so many because of the prevalence of mental ill health in society.

These stories are _obviously_ applicable to start ups - what would you do if a
co-founder or key employee asked to reduce hours while they were getting
medical treatment for mental ill health? What would you do if they were
detained against their will under mental health laws?

The other reason they get such prominence is that treatment for mental illness
is still variable. Cognitive behaviour therapy and medication (for depression)
is about as good as you can get yet it still seems weirdly difficult to get
that as a package.

Finally: these stories point to gaps in the market that startups could fill.
Online delivery of therapy has some evidence base, so if you can deliver it
better or cheaper there's money to be made. Or perhaps providing evidencd
based information to clinicians ("patient has diagnosis X; what should their
care look like?") or hundreds of other ideas.

~~~
gadders
I would say that the stories here are over-represented compared to my
friends/family/acquaintances.

Also for "what would you do if a co-founder or key employee asked to reduce
hours while they were getting medical treatment for mental ill health?" You
could subsitute cancer/paternity leave/military service in that sentence and
it would be just as relevant to a start-up. The issue is the reduction in
hours, not the cause.

------
swombat
Forgive my ignorance and bluntness, but reading the above, it sounds more like
an anxiety disorder than like depression. Both are serious, but I'm not sure
if it helps to confuse the two?

I've not experienced either seriously, but I know people who have. Depression
seems to be more about things not mattering anymore, everything being
pointless, the world seeming drab and just not fun anymore, rather than
feeling that everything is going to go to shit. Anxiety, though, (and I'm
speaking from experience here, having had some light anxiety attacks caused by
too much regular caffeine usage) seems to be characterised by a feeling of
impending doom, that everything is wrong, it can't be fixed, it's all
hopeless, etc. But in my (mild) anxiety attacks, like Rand, I still cared
about the outcome. I just felt like there were too many problems to solve,
overwhelmed, ready to say "fuck this", give up the entire thing, and start
again from scratch with something completely different.

PS: Otherwise, props for the very honest and open article. Running a business
is a lot of responsibility and very stressful and it can be comforting to know
you're not the only who seems surrounded by world-ending scenarios.

~~~
rbinv
Could you please elaborate on your caffeine-related anxiety attacks?

~~~
flavor8
I can speak from my experience. I was for a long time drinking 2-3 cups of
coffee in the morning. During the morning, generally things were good and I
could crank out code. However, during early-mid afternoon I'd often get
overwhelmed, tired, and unfocused, especially when multitasking, and often
would lapse into a browse-reddit/agh-i'm-not-being-productive/browse-more-
reddit cycle. Cutting down to one 1 cup in the morning has made a real
difference - I no longer get the early afternoon slump, and can stay focused
for longer in the afternoon without being overwhelmed by a long task list.

------
jroseattle
I read through this and the Can't Sleep/Loop post, which had me wiping my
eyes. I feel I'm there, right now.

We're in the middle of raising money, while I also keep the engineering ship
moving forward with product releases. We're about to run out of initial seed
money, as we were supposed to have brought in the balance of the round and
been on to Series A at this point. It's challenging, but I feel like I'm
handling it.

Or so I thought. It turns out, I'm getting little sleep right now -- maybe 4-5
hours a night, on average. I've gained back so much weight and I abhor seeing
myself in photos. I watch colleagues take absurd plans to investors and get
_way_ overfunded, more than they were ever asking to take on, while our little
operation that's actually generating revenue (we will likely be break-even in
6 months) gets passed. I know it's not a rational reaction, but still the
mental headwinds it creates really sap my soul.

It sucks when you're a (very) logical being, and something in your head no
longer fits into place. I'm short with my kids at home, and I literally dread
downtime. I find that cocktails go down easy, really easy.

It's a loop, alright.

------
danielweber
Slightly OT, but I read the whole thing thinking Moz was a nickname for
Mozilla, or, at the least, that Moz was related to Mozilla.

It's still good to get these stories.

~~~
ghostly_s
Yep, I was very confused by this as well. Never heard of this company, but
'moz' is a common nickname for Mozilla, I believe.

~~~
femto113
It's more than a coincidence. The company's original name, SEOMoz, was
inspired by projects like DMOZ [1], an "open" web directory that started under
the mozilla.org umbrella.

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMOZ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMOZ)

------
marklittlewood
Depression in technology is a very common condition. If you suffer from it,
please know you ARE NOT ALONE. This talk is very honest, open and has some
really helpful and practical advice.

[http://businessofsoftware.org/2013/11/developers-
entrepreneu...](http://businessofsoftware.org/2013/11/developers-
entrepreneurs-depression-a-wonderful-talk-at-business-of-software-conference/)

------
karl24
Mental illness impacts more people than cancer, diabetes, or heart disease.
Unfortunately only 1/3 of people who have the illness get treatment due to
cost, access, stigma, etc.

We're working on an app that uses technology to help bring clinically proven
treatments to market at a price point that dramatically improve access. We are
pairing this with product design that's common on the consumer web but
uncommon in mental health apps to help with adherence and engagement with
treatment.

I hope this isn't perceived as attempting to capitalize on a serious thread.
We (the founders) have incredibly personal reasons for perusing this problem.
Many in this thread are likely ideal early adopters for the product. The
general awareness that this discussion is raising is a good opportunity to
reach out and ask for help as helping us will ultimately help many others.

Two ways to help:

(1) 7 question survey, < 1 min to complete:
[http://bit.ly/1plE2Rg](http://bit.ly/1plE2Rg)

(2) contact us directly via cbtmobileapp@gmail.com if you'd like to provide
insight via a more in-depth interview.

------
ryanobjc
We talk a lot about successes.

It's also good to talk about failures, both partial and more complete.

And redemption.

The road to victory is long, and I would put my back against Rand because I
know this struggle has made him better.

~~~
jarek
I saw an idea of writing about rejections and failures in science earlier this
year, e.g.
[http://composition.al/blog/2014/04/29/rejections/](http://composition.al/blog/2014/04/29/rejections/)

I think there's still risk of others reading a list like that and thinking
"look how much they _do_", but it's definitely an improvement on the usual
pattern of sharing only successes and good news.

------
austengary
Not an overnight fix. But with sustained effort, meditation changed my life.
Eventually other things fell in place. Diet, exercise, relationships, mental
health. Buddhist teachings really helped too.

I started here. [http://headspace.com](http://headspace.com)

------
DanBC
Here's what the English "National Institute for Health and Care Excellence"
say:
[https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/CG90](https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/CG90)

------
l33tbro
As somebody who is not depressed, it is always confronting to see just how
hard depressed people are on themselves.

~~~
dfc
Is confronting the word you meant to use? It does not make much sense in this
context. But the alternative explanation is that an attempt at "comforting"
was auto-corrected to confronting. But being "comforted" by another person's
sadness makes it appear that you are a "less than virtuous and decent" person
and that does not seem like something you would want to advertise.

~~~
tomsthumb
His writing style suggests either he's dyslexic or that English isn't his
first language.

~~~
dfc
He seems to reside in .au and has a decent command of English idioms. Quotes
like the following lead me to believe he is simply a little "less than classy
and virtuous."

    
    
       Dont be  a depressed waste  of space like I  was...Id even
       get on something like Tinder and start getting pussy again
       just for your self esteem and self worth.

------
andreash
One of the most honest blog post I've ever read.

------
Siecje
alt="launch-is-moved-email"

------
thinknothing
I started writing poetry when i got depressed - www.thinknothing.co

------
akrymski
I've been through this at every startup I founded, but managed to pull through
in the end - and I'm still hoping this startup won't be any different. I
struggle to imagine if any CEO has not had a tough time like this and felt
utterly depressed at least once when things weren't working out. Rather than
focus on the depression aspect however, why not discuss what COULD have been
done better, and what Rand and other CEOs can learn from this - because
ultimately there's an important lesson there besides "depression sucks":

\- Don't bet your whole business on one product. Products come and go,
businesses pivot. Remember how Steve Jobs launched the Mac? He created a
separate, small division for the Macintosh to directly compete with the rest
of the company (working on Lisa - which wasn't going well actaully). That's
genius. He knew Mac is a risky project that could well take much longer than
anticipated. He didn't bet the whole house.

\- Start as small as possible. Moz Analytics was meant to be this giant swiss
army knife right? Wrong. MVP lessons still apply. Couldn't you have launched
the new brand with a tiny set of core features? Broke it into a modular setup
where consumers could pay for features/modules in the future as you develop
them?

\- Iterate. Real artists ship, remember? Agile software development and all
that? Doesn't sound like you had clearly defined iterative goals that you were
hitting as you went, because then you'd really have an idea for where you are
in the software development process. You seemed to have to go on someone's
word on this. Instead you should have been producing A product every month
with an increasing set of features. That way you could have still launched on
time, but with less features.

\- Review your progress often, and don't loose sight of the grand mission.
Being smart doesn't help here - it often makes you stubborn, and I've got the
same issue. But sometimes you need to have that thc-truffle, take a step back
and think how else you could allocate your resources. Are there some other
opportunities that the business can simultaneously pursue with a small set of
resources as a backup plan? Are there some major M&A deals that can be done to
shuffle things around? Do we need to hire more staff / or let people go who
aren't hitting the deadlines? Drastic times call for drastic measures. The
biggest issue with depression is that deep inside you still expect things to
just get better on their own. And as they don't, you feel worse. Well the bad
news is they won't get better on their own. You have to do something about it.

\- Don't fail to communicate. The value of your business is in its passionate
community, not one product. Seems like there are lots of people passionate
about SeoMoz. Instead of shutting yourself out due to what appeared to you as
a product failure, perhaps you could have engaged the community in the
process, help you establish the product roadmap for the features you should be
rolling out first, and try to understand why 90k of sign ups failed to try out
the product.

------
autism_hurts
I cannot stress how much exercising to exhaustion daily (read: Crossfit) and
eating healthy (Slow Carb / Paleo) impacted my depression.

Please try them before you medicate.

~~~
Smudge
I don't doubt that Crossfit does a lot of good, but after reading this I
decided not to try it personally:

[https://medium.com/@ericrobertson/crossfits-dirty-little-
sec...](https://medium.com/@ericrobertson/crossfits-dirty-little-
secret-97bcce70356d)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6424280](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6424280)

