
Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics - danso
https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/13/18263905/dwarf-fortress-steam-graphics-workshop
======
aresant
Three points of interest:

1) Full developer announcement on their Patreon page ->
[https://www.patreon.com/posts/25343688](https://www.patreon.com/posts/25343688)

2) They are putting on steam largely because of the USA's shit healthcare
system "after Zach's latest cancer scare, we determined that with my
healthcare plan's copay etc., I'd be wiped out if I had to undergo the same
procedures . . "

3) Cool to see that they are going to use graphics built by two of the most
popular community modders:

-=> MayDay built one of the most popular current graphics packs @ [http://goblinart.pl/vg-eng/df.php](http://goblinart.pl/vg-eng/df.php)

-=> And Meph has built a fairly massive tile set as well @ [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161047.0](http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161047.0)

Will be interesting to see how they change with native support.

~~~
tkiley
> They are putting on steam largely because of the USA's shit healthcare
> system "after Zach's latest cancer scare, we determined that with my
> healthcare plan's copay etc., I'd be wiped out if I had to undergo the same
> procedures . . "

I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, it totally sucks.

On the other hand, I suspect that as as consequence of this crappy pressure,
Dwarf Fortress will reach a substantially wider audience and bring joy to a
greater number of people.

I'll be interested to see how Tarn looks back on this moment in, say, five
years.

~~~
rexpop
Hey, look at it this way: Capitalism in healthcare _does_ drive a better
consumer experience!

~~~
seleniumBubbles
I think the other response was flagged for language, but the included link was
really interesting. I'd never even heard of medical "lodge practice" before
seeing this video and reading through some of the references.

They're basically voluntary, mutual aid societies – many of them were
basically small unions. The were strangled by the bigger, consolidated
organizations:

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fFoXyFmmGBQ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fFoXyFmmGBQ)

The video is probably good for most audiences, but if (like me) you prefer to
read, it looks like this is the short essay it's based on:
[http://www.freenation.org/a/f12l3.html](http://www.freenation.org/a/f12l3.html)

The references at the end of the essay include some really interesting
historical accounts which I've enjoyed reading over the past few hours.

~~~
chillwaves
Video seems to hand wave the actual issues of healthcare which are treatment
costs and scalability.

The only issue addressed was basically labor rate of doctors (and AMA
artificially limiting the pool of doctors by raising standards).

The tone of the video was horrible -- no thanks. I don't need scary cartoons
to tell me how to vote.

The end conclusion is basically "what if gov't is the problem?" without
offering a solution (or even evidence based critique of modern systems -- what
happened over 100 years ago is not the most relevant to my interests. As
others have pointed out, the practice of medicine was a lot different then).
Total waste of time and attention.

I honestly cannot understand how people look at the health care situation in
America and think "if only health insurance had less restrictions, that would
solve everything!"

------
umvi
One thing that amazes me about Dwarf Fortress is that the creator(s) don't use
version control[1] (as of 2014, things may have changed):

"I don't use version control -- I didn't like the feeling of having the code
get committed into a black box thingy with no immediate upside."

I can't fathom how you can manage the complexity of a game like DF without a
VCS.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1avszc/im_tarn_adams_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1avszc/im_tarn_adams_of_bay_12_games_cocreator_of_dwarf/c919fo8)

~~~
danielbarla
Honestly, for personal projects where I'm the sole developer, I only use git
nominally. I mean, it's there, and sure, I commit; but it's not like I'm
spawning feature branches or anything like that. It's a rather linear set of
commits, functionally almost equivalent to having a zip of the source every
now and then. I'm sure many people are the same.

~~~
LyndsySimon
Sort of.

I've used git for so long and so deeply that it's ingrained in the way I think
about code - I break things into atomic commits, and regularly traverse and
edit the commits in the feature branch that I'm working on. That doesn't
change when I'm working solo, nor do my commit message style rules. I find it
very useful to be able to investigate the history of a piece of code, even as
it moves across multiple files, and figure out what happened and why.

That said, when I'm working on a team I generally don't care how many
concurrent branches are being worked on - it's not a problem at all if the
threaded view is n levels deep. When I'm working alone I tend to have a linear
(single threaded) history, with tags for each release or deploy.

~~~
specialist
_" I break things into atomic commits"_

This is something that I struggle with. And it sets me apart from the apparent
majority of (younger) programmers.

At best, once I've baked something enough that I'm satisfied, I can go back
and break up the work. But then what's the point?

From my perspective, the agile/scrum mindset (velocity!) leads to spamming the
code base with poorly reasoned trivial changes, frequently just kicking the
can down the road, happily accumulating technical debt like an accretion disk.

Alas. I think the youngsters are more correct. Code bases are now so short
lived that anything more than the bare minimum is just wasted effort.

I miss the days of product development and burning CD-ROM gold masters and
people at least tried to hammer nails straight.

I know, I know, get off my lawn and all that.

------
bradford
I've played DF a lot.

Biggest problem that I had is that it eventually becomes a challenge to manage
the framerate. I realize there are ways to fix this that are intertwined with
the gameplay, but I'd rather play the game instead of butchering kittens and
other things in an effort to keep the game performant.

Second issue is with military organization. I never really became confident in
my ability to get the squads doing what I wanted them to do (wearing the
proper uniforms, training with a crossbow).

Despite this, I've had a lot of fun with the game. Building, farming, and
managing a metal industry is a lot of fun. The barrier to entry is still
pretty high, and I don't think the announced additions are going to change
that.

(haven't played in the last year or two, so my criticism may be outdated)

~~~
shrimp_emoji
Multithread w h e n ???

Also, early embark setup fatigue is real. Setup the stockpiles. Plan the
rooms. Have the plans outpace your current productivity and have it take way
too long. Do this every time.

Once that's over, though, you get to enjoy sorting through droves of migrants,
assigning each to the tasks they're most appropriate to or which need the most
dwarves right now (the game actually approximates this automatically in that
it generates migrants vaguely in reflection to the fortress's needs, but it's
not like it assigns all burly, tough, slow-to-tire dwarves to your melee
squads or that talented bonecrafter to more useful crafting jobs, so it's up
to your manic OCD). Do this every season.

Somewhere in there, have some !FUN!.

~~~
jandrese
Multithread never. You know in your heart of hearts that DF wasn't built with
modularity in mind and that the code is a horrific mess of dependencies
everywhere and making it multithreaded would require a near complete rewrite
of the system.

~~~
a1369209993
Actually, one of DF's biggest CPU-sinks is AI pathfinding, which is a:
embarrassingly parallel and b: highly speculatable[0], so the only hard part
would be keeping map walkablity data in-sync or read-lockable (depending on
whether you want a separate copy or not).

0: ie, you can fire off a pathfind from your current position, keep walking
for several steps (many game ticks) before getting the result back, and just
do some minor fixups to make it work.

~~~
mikekchar
> the only hard part would be keeping map walkablity data in-sync or read-
> lockable

I suspect that this is entirely the problem. For quite a while not I've gotten
the impression that all of the game state in in a single data structure.

Also I'm pretty sure that there are update anomalies galore even now. It's
almost certain to be a herculean task. I might be wrong, but the fact that
Tarn has never even attempted it makes me suspect that I'm right ;-)

------
joshstrange
I've never been able to get into DF but I would suggest people check out
RimWorld. I've heard it described as "Dwarf Fortress is Rimworld for people
who hate fun" [0] and people often draw parallels between the two [1].

[0]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/7dm7j8/how_does_r...](https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/7dm7j8/how_does_rimworld_compare_to_dwarf_fortress/)

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/6xeie3/coming_ove...](https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/6xeie3/coming_over_from_dwarf_fortress_i_feel_like_my/dmfb8rm/)

~~~
chobeat
Rimworld is kinda lame if you've played DF. They are not even comparable.

~~~
LoSboccacc
how so? the production chain is almost as deep. the damage model it's close in
detail, and it's not terribly broken (whips anyone?) which should count as far
as features go. you can actually caravan, explore people and exterminate
faction without being restricted into adventure mode. and when you ask a
neighbor for something in the caravan, you get what you asked. weather and
climate is much more prominent, including more dangerous event like dry
thunderstorm; the storyteller driven game is also quite ahead of seasonal
invaders. husbandry is about the same and farming has terrain and light
modifiers.

as far as game mechanics go rimworld lack building on multiple z levels and
fluids.

and then you have gnomoria....

the real differentiation is the depth world history that df has that's quite
unique.

I love dwarf fortress, but let's not put that on a golden pillar.

~~~
mikekchar
For the way many people play DF, I think Rimworld is a better game. However,
one of the core features of DF is that the world persists and has history.
That's why there is no winning condition. Rimworld has a kind of lame winning
condition (get off the planet), but it's there for precisely the reason that
it doesn't exist in DF: Rimworld is a game with mechanics optimised for good
gameplay. DF is a fantasy world simulator where you immerse yourself in the
world and do whatever you want.

Again, for a lot of DF players that point is lost. They want to set up their
efficient workflows or build their wonderful creations or they want to
slaughter wave after wave of goblins. However, DF is set up in a way that the
player is not necessarily important to the world. You die and the world just
continues. You explore the world as an adventurer. You get killed by a duck.
Life goes on. Your fortress falls to a weregopher. Life goes on. You explore
the ruins of your fortress, track down the weregopher and get your revenge.
That's DF. Rimworld has _none_ of that.

Rimworld is a good game. DF is more like a toy.

~~~
Aromasin
The way I see it, it's like the difference between people who follow a Lego
manual (RimWorld), and people who are creative enough to just build awesome
things without it (DF). It's 100% what you make of it.

There's an amazing channel on YouTube, called Kruggsmash, that does DF lets
plays. In his current series, he initially founded a new settlement based
entirely on bee agriculture and trading - no fighters. He kept the population
small so they were under the notice of the local goblins, and got set building
an awesome looking place with custom bee related statues, engravings and the
like. Unfortunately the other dwarf settlements around him (NPC ones) die off
because of the local goblin fortress, and refugees start flocking to his
settlement. (SPOILERS AHEAD!) He ends up throwing a vampire goblin down the
well, and stabs him with spikes which ends up bloodying the water. The dwarves
that drink the water then end up turning into vampires themselves, so he now
has a fortress of vampire dwarves! He also has a massive prequel to this
fortress series where he plays in adventure mode as a boar man and his
compatriot goblin buddy (the one now down the well...), going around stealing
artefacts and building his own role-play story, with some amazing
illustrations to show what's happening in through all the ASCII graphics.

Honestly, he's more than worth a watch. You get very attached to all the
characters, especially the dwarves that have been there from the beginning.
He's one of the few YouTubers I've ever contributed towards on patreon.

------
danbolt
Kitfox Games is run by Tanya Short, who’s co-authored a book on procedural
generation in games.[1]

She gave a pretty interesting talk in Vancouver about how it integrates into
her studio’s production methodology. A lot of Kitfox’s games employ procgen,
so I feel like they’re a good fit for the title. [2]

[1] [https://www.amazon.ca/Procedural-Generation-Design-Tanya-
Sho...](https://www.amazon.ca/Procedural-Generation-Design-Tanya-
Short/dp/1498799191)

[2]
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TH11Q7VPXj8](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TH11Q7VPXj8)

~~~
jyxent
Co-authored with Tarn Adams, the co-creator of Dwarf Fortress.

------
Pfhreak
I've often wondered if DF will ever get an open source version that tries to
recreate the same experience but focuses on consistent interface design,
performance and multithreading, and ease of extensibility.

DF has a huge head start, and two of the most incredibly passionate developers
out there, but it's also clear they prioritize expanding the model first and
foremost rather than trying to tackle any of the user experience issues that
have plagued the game forever.

(To be clear, I _adore_ DF. I've put many, many hours into DF. It's a truly
amazing game and I continue to wish the developers success.)

~~~
LyndsySimon
I feel like every time someone sets out to create a F/OSS successor to DF,
they end up mired in creating dungeon and world generators and never produce a
functional game.

Really, that's what DF _is_ anyhow; they even call it a "story generator"
IIRC. Tarn just managed to put enough of a playable game together before
getting lost in the details of world generation, and people have stayed
engaged enough with it to keep him involved in the project.

~~~
Sylos
Yeah, and with FOSS this is all the more important. No one is going to play
your game, if it's not fun. Few people are going to play your game, while it's
not yet in some tangible way better than DF.

And if people don't play your game, they're not going to contribute to it.

------
crooked-v
"No access to the source code" is a seriously weird thing to note. Is this
going to be like one of the existing memory-injecting/manipulating mods, with
all the downsides that implies?

~~~
StrangeDoctor
It's a roundabout way of assuring the existing community that the integrity of
the simulation/game is the same as always. All of these mods are memory
injection/watching, but nothing is being done to circumvent the modders.

~~~
Filligree
In fact there's some work done to support them. For instance, it calls
SDL_NumJoysticks once per frame to give DFHack a convenient hook location...
...

...that's my fault.

------
wyldfire
I've never played it but it sounds like a compelling game with an in-depth
model.

I started out playing games on a monochome amber monitor + Hercules graphics.
But I still think that going beyond ASCII characters is a nice touch that will
make the game easier on the eyes.

> in today’s FAQ, the pair said that they’re selling this premium version in
> part to pay for health care for ailing family members.

That's too bad that it's come to this but perhaps it will bring the game to a
wider audience.

~~~
crooked-v
The gameplay model is extremely elaborate and compelling, but the UI is wildly
inconsistent and vigorously inscrutable, even compared to "every key is a
separate command" classics like Nethack.

~~~
mikekchar
Not to mention the seemingly millions of bugs and oddities that you have to
keep in your mind when you play. Lots of stuff just doesn't work, or works
weirdly enough that it's better off avoiding it. Becoming a "good" DF player
involves a lot of learning how to avoid those landmines.

I still love it though! There is nothing like it.

------
cma
Buy through Patreon and they get a much larger portion of your payment.

~~~
shadowfacts
I think you mean Itch.io: [https://kitfoxgames.itch.io/dwarf-
fortress](https://kitfoxgames.itch.io/dwarf-fortress)

~~~
elliottcarlson
[http://www.bay12games.com/support.html](http://www.bay12games.com/support.html)
is the best place to donate directly and ensures they get the biggest cut.

------
VectorLock
Its great they're bringing DF to a larger audience and adding graphical tile
sets will sure help but I found the most inscrutable thing about this game
wasn't how it presented the graphics but the menu system. I'm curious if the
Steam release will do anything to make that less impenetrable.

------
Impossible
From the article:

 _Kitfox said that it has “no access to the source code, and will have no
influence on the design, programming, or updates to Dwarf Fortress.”_

Interesting approach, they're basically making a commercial client for the DF
"server". From what I know of Dwarf Fortress mods, even though tile sets and
data definitions are data driven, a lot of the functionality is hard-coded, so
many mods\viewers work by reverse engineering and reading or modifying memory
at run-time. Indeed looking at the Dwarf Therapist code this seems to be the
case still ([https://github.com/Dwarf-Therapist/Dwarf-
Therapist/blob/mast...](https://github.com/Dwarf-Therapist/Dwarf-
Therapist/blob/master/share/memory_layouts/)).

With a commercial release with Steam Workshop support and no source access for
the primary developers does that mean DF will get a proper mod system? Steam
is likely to bring in a lot of new users that don't necessarily have the
patience to deal with "truths" the existing community has been dealing with
for 14 years...

------
vharuck
Direct donations (maybe Patreon, too?) are rewarded with a narrative blurb &
ASCII art or a crayon drawing. I treasure my drawing of a minecart barrelling
toward a goblin tied to the tracks.

------
bdz
The problem with DF was never the graphics but the UI itself. See Rimworld
which is hugely popular but much more "playable". Basically the UI is holding
back the game to become a much bigger success

~~~
mlindner
Rimworld is also a MUCH simpler game. It's simpler to the point when I played
it Rimworld felt "dead" as compared to how "alive" the DF simulation felt.

~~~
vkou
Rimworld is a much simpler game, but it would not be improved if, instead of
the incredibly straight, user-friendly forward military system that it has, it
had the insane morass of uniforms, schedules, equipment menus, burrows, that
Dwarf Fortress does. It's an incredibly roundabout system that has too much
complexity in the UI, for too little complexity in gameplay.

You could add features to Rimworld, to reach feature parity with Dwarf
Fortress, and it's easy-to-use UI would still hold up.

------
soneca
I always read about Dwarf Fortress in HN and it always interested me. But some
elements, like the ASCII art, always seemed to me as entry barriers
purposefully built to maintain a protected subculture that I had no interest
in being part of. I just wanted to try out a good game.

So this comes as good news to me, I'll probably give it a try now with the
tile graphics.

~~~
jandrese
IMHO, the graphics aren't nearly as much of a barrier as the interface. If you
just install DF and open it up you will be overwhelmed and there's no help
system holding your hand. The word "inscrutable" gets tossed around a lot with
Dwarf Fortress, because it is the prefect encapsulation of the first time
player's experience.

~~~
tptacek
The interface is part of the charm; you get dopamine hits not just for knowing
what to do, but also figuring out (after trial and fun^H^H^Herror) _how_ to do
the things you're trying to do.

~~~
jandrese
Or you know, even _what_ you are supposed to be doing. The game asks you a
whole bunch of questions about how to create the universe that you have no
idea about, then it plops you down with a bunch of dwarves in some kind of
environment, and you know you're supposed to dig a home and I guess you need
to task the Dwarves to do that (they're just wandering around aimlessly), but
when you try to give the Dwarves a task they just wander around aimlessly
still for no apparent reason.

------
ceejayoz
> But, in today’s FAQ, the pair said that they’re selling this premium version
> in part to pay for health care for ailing family members.

"Name one positive thing about the US health insurance setup."

"Uh... it got us Dwarf Fortress with graphics, I guess?"

~~~
tptacek
DF already has graphical tilesets, right? This is just a packaging of them?

~~~
enticeing
The graphics are new, as far as I can tell. From a Patreon post on the same
topic:

> She's contracted Mike Mayday and Meph, who've both

> been with the modding community for many years.

> Zach and I are working closely with them as they

> create a tile set that fits the game and meshes

> well with our underlying code.

~~~
theli0nheart
Graphics have been available for a long time, now, they've just never been
bundled with the game itself.

------
minikites
[https://twitter.com/moonpolysoft/status/1105872843475030016](https://twitter.com/moonpolysoft/status/1105872843475030016)

>In a just universe the dwarf fortress dudes would've gotten notch's money

([https://www.gamebyte.com/creator-minecraft-admits-ripped-
off...](https://www.gamebyte.com/creator-minecraft-admits-ripped-off-another-
game-creating-minecraft/))

~~~
Grue3
This is true, but Tarn Adams was in fact offered a big commercial deal before
and rejected it. He really values the independence of his vision.

------
YukonMoose
I was consumed by df for about six months to the detriment of everything else.

I’ve never been able to go back, but I always remember it as the best gaming I
ever did.

Df is a piece of art comparable to anything created by mankind to date. In a
1000 years I believe df will be compared with Mozart and the Mona Lisa.

And hopefully they’ve improved the efficiency... I want my descendants to be
able to build that 1000 dwarf fortress!

~~~
nyolfen
>Df is a piece of art comparable to anything created by mankind to date. In a
1000 years I believe df will be compared with Mozart and the Mona Lisa.

you're not the only one who thinks so:
[https://www.moma.org/collection/works/164920](https://www.moma.org/collection/works/164920)

------
kuwze
I wish they would release on gog too, but I guess that kind of loses the
benefits of the steam workshop. Maybe an independent mod manager?

~~~
cwyers
If you want a DRM-free version without Steam integration, they're also
releasing on itch.io.

~~~
kuwze
Awesome! Also do you happen to know if it's coming to Linux too?

------
coldacid
Oh no. There goes everyone's productivity, killed by catsplosions.

~~~
crocal
And by killer carps. Never turn your back on carps. They want you dead!

Explanation:
[http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/40d:Carp](http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/40d:Carp)

~~~
bduerst
They fixed that though. I think the current most problematic bug is that your
dwarves can't kill undead heads if they're decapitated from the body. The
dwarves just gather around and endless keep beating it the zombie head.

~~~
crocal
Presented like this, I’m not sure if it’s a bug or a feature.

~~~
bduerst
Yep, it's great !FUN! but it essentially kills the fortress since any dwarf in
viewing range will drop everything and fight until exhaustion.

Kind of sucks if you like the challenge of evil biomes :(

------
hiccuphippo
The corner grass in the pics looks weird. Are they supposed to be cliffs?

I've heard of this game but never tried it. I've only played nethack on a
terminal. I'll definitely try it!

~~~
Retra
Those are cliffs. The grass is at a lower elevation than the mountain.

------
grawprog
I wonder if the steam/itch.io versions will support linux? It only has windows
on the steam page so far and nothing about platforms on the article or FAQ. I
would enjoy a version integrated with the steam workshop with automatic
updates and to help them out some more.

------
tlynchpin
Interesting choice of Steam and itch. I'd be very interested to hear more
about their selection process on platform once they decided to Get The Money.
Specifically I wonder if they explored the new Epic platform, guess I'll have
to tune into the AMA tomorrow.

~~~
ilaksh
Its not that interesting to me to pick Steam and Itch since they have many
more users than anything else including something that barely launched.

------
ajuc
How is it possible that reasonable people are OK with this kind of bullshit
healthcare policy?

~~~
muzani
because capitalism lets people charge accordingly to supply and demand, and
America will defend capitalism till the end

~~~
ajuc
It's not capitalism, half the world has capitalism and much saner health
systems.

It's some kind of extremism.

------
tempodox
Dwarf Fortress seems to be way beyond me. It takes ages reacting to any
keyboard input I make and once I get to the actual game screen, I can't even
find my character. Maybe the Steam edition will finally be usable for me.

------
mesozoic
Great news! I'd bet they make tons of sales from this on reputation and
additional visibility alone and given their methods that should fund
development for the rest of their lives at least.

------
uglygoblin
Another Roguelike game called ADOM that has been around since the 90's was
brought to Steam with upgraded assets and sounds a couple years back.

~~~
muzani
And it highlighted how aged the game was. It's a roguelike masterpiece, but
there has been many more playable ones since. DF hasn't aged as badly, but
standing up in Steam to more playable games will be challenging.

------
voltagex_
Even if you don't plan on buying it on Steam, wishlisting it there will help
the devs.

------
NeoBasilisk
Maybe I'll finally try playing it. It always seemed fascinating.

------
mlindner
I hope they can included TWBT as the multi-level view is kind of needed for
any proper graphics visualization.

------
marcotaves
Dont know why this remembers me a Story from HackerNews...

I call this story by the xiaoming of "The Black Dice on White Table"

In October of 1994, I’d just started as an honest-to-goodness videogame
programmer at a small startup called SingleTrac which later went on to fame
and glory (but unfortunately not much in the way of fortune) with such titles
as Warhawk, the Twisted Metal series, and the Jet Moto series. But at the
time, the company was less than 20 employees in size and had only been
officially in business for about a month. It was sometime in my first week
possibly my first or second day. In the main engineering room, there was a
whoop and cry of success.

Our company financial controller and acting HR lady, Jen, came in to see what
incredible things the engineers and artists had come up with. Everyone was
staring at a television set hooked up to a development box for the Sony
Playstation. There, on the screen, against a single-color background, was a
black triangle.

“It’s a black triangle,” she said in an amused but sarcastic voice. One of the
engine programmers tried to explain, but she shook her head and went back to
her office. I could almost hear her thoughts… “We’ve got ten months to deliver
two games to Sony, and they are cheering over a black triangle? THAT took them
nearly a month to develop?”

