
Uber is destroying thousands of electric bikes and scooters following Jump sale - finphil
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52832791
======
11thEarlOfMar
I still can't get over this one. I printed it and taped to the wall in my
office. I'll ask folks to guess what it is. First guess is almost always some
type of plant:

[https://cdn.theatlantic.com/thumbor/Vtmg6k-JNp0wpEtDo_RvOcoT...](https://cdn.theatlantic.com/thumbor/Vtmg6k-JNp0wpEtDo_RvOcoT-
_Y=/1200x801/media/img/photo/2018/03/bikes/b02_904982860/original.jpg)

~~~
sytelus
Why selling these is so hard? There is a huge market for second hand bikes. I
would think you can always get a better price than scrap metal for a
functional bike. Any non zero profit is better than zero.

~~~
nikanj
In the US? Liability. Uber has lots of money, so slippin’ jimmy would have a
field day

~~~
Frondo
How are ordinary bike companies immune from this kind of lawsuit?

------
soylentcola
As much as I would love a cheap e-bike to tinker with and restore (even if
it's old), I can't say I'm surprised these are being recycled.

On one hand, how would it benefit their/Lime's business to have loads of
people owning electric scooters and bikes? On the other hand, there really are
logistical and liability issues involved with distributing old gear in varying
states of repair.

It's a shame they don't do something like gov/edu institutions and auction off
the stuff as-is. At least then someone could theoretically buy it up to do
something with it.

~~~
Jugurtha
I was walking in our electronics department's hallway when I stopped and
walked a few steps back. My peripheral vision picked up a pile of yummy: a
load of lab gear in an office. I went in and asked about it. The person said
they were to be discarded. I asked if I could take some. They said they were
to be sold by the kilogram to a company. I asked if I could _buy_ a few
kilograms of oscilloscopes, multimetres, stabilized power sources, etc. They
said no. Regulations, auctions, etc.

Here I was, a broke electronics student, trying to procure electronics
equipment, in an electronics department, with lunch money I was willing to
part with, but unable to do so because someone needed to melt that thing down
and make a horse shoe or some fork.

~~~
aspenmayer
Somebody already bought the picking rights. I would have gone over the head of
the person you asked, or call in a favor with someone at the same level of
hierarchy. Ask them if you can have some of the stuff. If they say yes, tell
the first person x said it's fine, and just take what you are allowed to take.

Their red tape is only your problem if you can't self-help. It's not your job
to enforce their agreements with third parties who aren't you. It's also not
your job to inform them of existing agreements with third parties which you
are privy to.

~~~
Jugurtha
Oh, the things I would have done in that situation if it took place somewhere
where you don't get disappeared for a Facebook post, friend. I'll leave it at
that.

The underlying context is that I was practically a persona non grata. Teachers
would happily leave the class to me during labs but hated the fact I barely
attended. I'm talking not even grading your exam sheet, or putting an
arbitrary grade, and not displaying it until the recourse deadline has passed
because "screw you" and I'm talking putting "0" on _all_ your grades because
you missed one exam. Nobody will take the side of a student who'll be there
for a limited time against a colleague they've worked with for 20+ years. Even
if the behavior is unjust, the rationale for them is that you'll live and
learn and forget about it and leave, but they're staying and have to work with
the other person.

Sure, the obvious step is to go manoeuver or call out these practices, invovle
lawyers, and the media, and what not. Which brings me to my first paragraph.
What is obvious and possible somewhere isn't somewhere else, or is but the
stakes are too high. If I wanted to manoeuver in a cesspool, I would have
become a politician. If I wanted to go to war, I would have become a martyr.
The former is frowned upon, the latter is admired in other people from a
distance.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
This sounds like you encountered corruption, not waste.

~~~
Jugurtha
Not certain, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case in that specific
instance.

------
waterfowl
I've been sad about this sale for a few weeks -- was a pretty heavy Jump bike
user in DC and they've just been sitting on the streets disabled -- vanished
from the apps overnight. They were/are well built machines and I hope Lime or
someone reactivates them. They also feel much more practical and safe than the
cheap bird/etc scooters(having eaten shit on a bird before going over a curb)
-- bigger tires for bump tolerance, more stable position, etc.

We have another dockless ebike entrant in town called Helbiz and they're
pretty nice, plus have an unlimited subscription option -- hoping they get
traction and stick around - I have already noticed some of the bikes being
seemingly vandalized on purpose(pedals ripped off and strapped in the basket)
which is sad.

It feels that the timing could be right with very limited Metro and Bus
service(and widespread virus related public transit anxiety).

edit: I could also see this business model as being self cannibalizing -- I'd
never ridden an ebike pre JUMP and now would consider buying one myself for
1-2k. How many people who really enjoy the JUMP experience would similarly
leave the platform for a nicer model, long run cheaper experience. Introduces
other tradeoffs like security, having to take the bike home(so you can't
really ride it out if you're going to be drinking), etc.

~~~
Xavdidtheshadow
For me, the biggest value prop was that I could leave them anywhere and didn't
have to maintain them. I could buy myself one, but then I'd need to take care
of it and make sure it doesn't get stolen. I'm not sure I'm interested in
that.

~~~
asdff
You can buy renters insurance or something similar for your bike. Mine is
covered for a few bucks a month.

~~~
ouid
A few bucks a month is a lot of money. Try buying an annuity for a few bucks a
month over the lifetime of the average bicycle and you're probably doubling
the cost of the bike.

~~~
adrianN
It's not like bike share renting is cheap compared to owning a bike either.

~~~
Xavdidtheshadow
It is if you only use it periodically. If I was commuting daily on a bike, I'd
buy one. But I was mostly doing ~1 ride / month for tourist-y reasons.

------
ahelwer
All of this has happened before:
[https://www.theguardian.com/cities/gallery/2018/may/01/unexp...](https://www.theguardian.com/cities/gallery/2018/may/01/unexpected-
beauty-china-bicycle-graveyards-share-bikes-in-pictures)

~~~
akgerber
Those were usually much cheaper & junkier pieces of equipment than the Jump
bikes.

------
nlh
I will say - I was a very frequent Jump user in SF, and before you shout
"waste!", if you haven't had the experience of riding on one of the older
bikes past it's useful life, you should consider this:

Jump switched over to a new model within the last year or two. Their older
bikes - while yes, built like tanks - also aged like tanks (after battle).
They were BEAT UP. The frames were mangled & scratched, the drivetrains were
barely functional, and the brakes barely worked.

My general strategy for riding a Jump was to find the closest bike with the
highest serial # (assuming it would be a newer one), because getting an old
one was just not fun.

Anyway, this is all to say: While yes, almost everything can technically be
repurposed, I wouldn't want to spend much time on an older Jump bike either
first or second hand.

~~~
toss1
That is true for your value of time.

For others, they may think it is fun to take three beat-up old bikes and turn
them into one good one and a pile of recyclable parts.

One man's trash is another's treasure...

(& Yes, Uber has no excuse for this kind of nonsense. That is exactly what As-
Is-Where-Is-Not-Fit-For-Any-Specific-Purpose warranty & law is all about.
Repurpose before recycle...)

~~~
nlh
Good points and makes sense!

------
brunoTbear
I'm surprised they shipped them to North Carolina to be destroyed: I have seen
very efficient programs here in San Francisco run by homeless camps.

------
cbuq
From the end of the article, Uber explains why they recycled the old bikes not
transferred to Jump in the sale,

> But given many significant issues - including maintenance, liability, safety
> concerns, and a lack of consumer-grade charging equipment - we decided the
> best approach was to responsibly recycle them.

Unfortunately seems to most responsible way to handle these bikes. I see the
charging issue being a major problem. Trek just switched their rentable bikes
to electric in my city, I wonder if they face the same fate.

And settle down everyone, they are being recycled, not dumped in a hole.

~~~
jrace
>And settle down everyone, they are being recycled, not dumped in a hole.

Recycling is only slightly better than throwing away.

There is no conceivable reason these could not have been re-sued.

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle - is in that order for a good reason.

~~~
labster
Why sell people a product when you can offer them a service and make even more
money? Reduce and Reuse are bad for business, making Recycle the only
economically viable option.

EDIT: @downvoter, can you tell me how our business climate doesn't suck this
way?

~~~
JKCalhoun
You are absolutely correct.

Upvoter.

------
csunbird
The bikes actually had very good performance, I would gladly buy one of them
to be honest.

~~~
kube-system
How would you charge it?

~~~
waterfowl
Unclear if they are charged by battery swapping or being taken to a third
location -- but either way in a world where they'd sell them would they not
include a charger?

~~~
kube-system
There are likely fewer chargers than bikes, and the chargers are not consumer
friendly:

[https://therideshareguy.com/wp-
content/uploads/2018/04/7b019...](https://therideshareguy.com/wp-
content/uploads/2018/04/7b01981f-8041-4638-8802-6fb36957c525_IMG_2861.jpg)

~~~
akgerber
The motors likely use a relatively standard voltage/current & would very
likely be amenable to a consumer e-bike battery— an expensive component, for
sure, but much cheaper than a whole bike.

------
travisporter
Is this one of those “we can’t donate food we are about to throw away because
what if we get sued” situations? Could also be a tax write-off!

~~~
danielfoster
Destroying the bikes would actually also be an equivalent write-off. Since
Uber has no profits, it pays no taxes.

~~~
renewiltord
SF has a gross receipts tax, my dude. There are payroll taxes as well.

~~~
ineedasername
I don't think you can write off expenses against payroll taxes.

------
tylerchilds
Exactly like when restaurants would rather throw away food instead of donating
it. If they sell bikes to people that would otherwise use their service, they
wouldn't have any customers.

But they're wrong, people that own bikes aren't the same people that want to
use a bike ad-hoc.

~~~
jedberg
That's not why restaurants throw away food. They do it because of liability
laws. There is a super high risk of getting sued if you give away food and
someone gets sick.

~~~
mthoms
Absolutely, 100% untrue. [0]

 _" There is no available public record of anyone in the United States being
sued...because of harms related to donated food."_ [1]

[0]
[https://www.publichealthlawcenter.org/sites/default/files/re...](https://www.publichealthlawcenter.org/sites/default/files/resources/Liability%20Protection%20Food%20Donation.pdf)

[1] [https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/restaurants-that-dont-
do...](https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/restaurants-that-dont-donate-
because-of-liability-are-just-making-excuses-experts-
say_n_577d6f92e4b0344d514dd20f?ri18n=true)

~~~
jedberg
Because no one does it...?

~~~
mthoms
Is that a statement of fact or a question?

The article I cited says one organization alone "has 650 cafes nationwide and
donated more than 286,000 pounds of food last year." It also mentions several
other organizations who do similar work.

The root problem is people spreading this misinformation. Please don't.

------
nness
In the UK, Jump bikes were a far superior option over Lime. My experience with
both was that Lime bike maintenance was very poor; with two-thirds of all
rides requiring a refund due to the bike not functioning or having physical
damage.

Getting support and refunds from Lime was exceptionally painful. Uber also
supported bike drop off in the East, where as Lime would silently fine you.

~~~
partyboat1586
The Jump bikes were just a different league. Smooth ride. Lime bikes for me
were a last resort when I was doing the bike share thing. Half of them were
broken, more physical effort than riding a decent road bike and no refund when
the bike is broken. I'd rather get a Boris bike than a Lime.

------
zymhan
The waste is just staggering.

~~~
mindslight
ZIRP in action. Gotta keep everyone working full time, for uh, some reason. At
least these ones didn't end up in gulleys and ponds.

~~~
mindslight
This whole thread is full of people expressing lament over the glaring waste,
but I suggested a concrete cause to consider and it was met with silent
downvotes. Individuals don't generally destroy perfectly good bikes. It's the
economy, stupid. ZIRP pushes capital to make far-off bets, in hopes that some
_might_ turn into recurring income streams.

The e-rental industry is a glaring example of this in action, where
"investors" are buying fleets of easily-affordable consumer goods, hoping to
put enough on the sidewalk that people will trip over them and their credit
cards will fall in. I know everyone in Silly Valley has been benefiting from
this deluge of make-work, but eventually we're going to have to reconcile our
goal of technology making us more productive with this regressive policy of
"full employment". And sorry, I doubt the answer is obtuse "basic income".

------
julianozen
This is shameful. How can nobody want to repurpose these bikes? Wasn't this
program supposed to be environmentally friendly?

Lebron James gives bikes away as charity to help kids have a sense of freedom
and mobility. I dont see how there isnt a better solution here
[https://www.bicycling.com/news/a22613790/a-bike-saved-
lebron...](https://www.bicycling.com/news/a22613790/a-bike-saved-lebron-james-
now-hes-giving-them-to-all-his-students/)

------
oliwarner
Why isn't _reuse_ mandated or incentivised in the same way that _recycle_ is?

This is such a colossal waste of energy. I can't believe that offering these
without warranty and a stipulation that they be debranded before use wouldn't
have got Uber more cash, and the planet a better outcome.

------
gpm
If they're still running this business in the UK... why not ship them there?
It's unbelievable that there isn't a better use of these than recycling them
(but I do think that's mostly their mistake to make).

~~~
MattGaiser
Probably different certification standards.

------
neonate
[https://twitter.com/sanjaydastoor/status/1265667301526827009](https://twitter.com/sanjaydastoor/status/1265667301526827009)

------
dbg31415
A lot of people are screaming about re-use... but man, these were never
designed to be consumer bikes. You likely don't have a one-at-a-time charger,
they probably have some sort of rack that charges 100 batteries at once.
Similar issues around components... likely hard to get a replacement wheel, or
what have you. And no way Americans wouldn't sue if they got a defective one.
Totally understand, and impressed these didn't just go into a hole. Glad Uber
is trying to recycle.

------
peterwwillis
Multiple US municipalities have convened conferences and created sort of joint
task forces to investigate the use of micromobility to supplement public
transit.

The scooters and bikes could have been donated to local governments who could
then figure out how to support them, and used them for programs to help
disadvantaged citizens get around easier. But that wouldn't really help Uber's
bottom line I guess, and might involve extra work.

------
szhu
I see a lot of people commenting on how good the Jump bike design is. I almost
missed this excerpt, but it looks like that design might be here to stay:

> Lime's chief executive Wayne Ting has said he prefers the design of Uber's
> bikes and will deploy more of them in the future.

> However, there were also "tens of thousands" of older-model bikes that Lime
> did not inherit as part of the deal.

------
blendergeek
Reminds me of the GM EV1.

------
edimaudo
Why not sell them at a discount?

~~~
refurb
Typically it's liability. If they sold a defective scooter and someone got
hurt, they could be in a world of trouble.

Reminds me of that article about the ship transporting new Toyotas that tipped
over. Half of the cars didn't even get wet, but they pulled all the cars off
the ship and destroyed them. It wasn't worth the hassle of inspecting and
repairing and still being at risk for liability.

~~~
throwaway0a5e
>Typically it's liability. If they sold a defective scooter and someone got
hurt, they could be in a world of trouble.

This is/was something traditionally handled with a document signed by the
buyer stating the sale is as-is. Tons of broken stuff gets sold all the time.

~~~
kube-system
Waivers cannot always override laws that protect consumers, and these laws
vary widely by locale.

For one example: Where I'm at, if you sell some things "as-is" and don't
disclose all known defects, you can be held liable for those defects
regardless of your "as-is" agreement.

~~~
refurb
I think the Toyota decision was also one of reputation. Do you really want to
sell a bunch of cars that might have been exposed to salt water?

Nothing would ruin your brand more than having thousands of new cars breaking
down.

~~~
throwaway0a5e
Toyota has said "don't worry we've fixed the frames on the new ones" for ~40yr
now and the Tacoma still sells. If anyone can get away with it they can. Still
probably not smart to risk it though.

------
ganstyles
Heavy Jump user here. They're perfect for commuting for me, dealing with hills
and getting to and from the office, and then not having to worry about the
bike once I got to the office. This news makes me sad.

------
ChrisRR
Wow, what a waste. Here in the UK at the moment it's difficult to get hold of
"cheap" bikes, and even worse for ebikes. They could be selling those on
rather than destroying them

------
carapace
Because they goofed on the design at the start: design for reuse people!

------
ineedasername
I take it that for security purposes to prevent theft, they probably used
proprietary charging devices and some version of DRM to prevent opening the
things up and self-servicing them if stolen.

------
sudoaza
Environmental costs should be included in everything, air pollution, water
usage and clear lifecycle of the product including where and if it can be
recycled. Mindless production is unsustainable.

------
correction222
This title is factually incorrect.

Uber no longer owns the bikes. Lime does. The title should read "Lime is
destroying thousands of electric Jump bikes and scooters after buying them
from Uber"

Other important details:

\- these bikes and scooters intentionally use custom parts to deter theft and
make it so it isn't viable to strip them for parts. It will be impossible for
the purchaser of a used bike to buy replacement parts or charging equipment.

\- the software used on these bikes is now owned by Lime

\- there is a liability and regulatory issues with selling devices with
rechargable batteries. None of the battery parts involved in the bikes are
certified for legal sale.

~~~
kube-system
The title is correct. The article says that these are:

> "tens of thousands" of older-model bikes that Lime did not inherit as part
> of the deal.

> Uber said in a statement. [...] "[...] we decided the best approach was to
> responsibly recycle them."

------
daralthus
Are you kidding, these bikes are strictly superior to Lime's in every
perceivable way like robustness, speed, brakes, ergonomy, maintenance etc.

------
foolinaround
they should have shipped them to countries where the liability laws are not
stringent, get them into the hands of kids who could tinker with them...

~~~
sitkack
Could you imagine all the skills and the secondary economy having 10k of these
bikes dropped on a 2nd world city?

These things would rock Kathmandu.

~~~
renewiltord
Yeah, someone would accidentally puncture a battery and it'll burn them and
then the headlines will say "Uber is dumping exploding bikes on Third World
people".

------
nmstoker
So long as these things are allowed to be left out of proper stands then
destruction is the best thing for them. Does seem a terrible waste though.

~~~
dheera
This should honestly be illegal, or at least there should be a massive
financial penalty for destroying _anything_ that can be useful to others
instead of giving it away. There should be a legal framework for zero
liability if the alternative is trashing.

------
pdog
Can you update the title? The vital parts are being recycled (battery, motor).

------
Animats
Large quantities of used lithum-ion batteries that have been in heavy street
use are not a great thing to acquire. There are recycling companies; if you
have more than 500lbs you can get a free pickup. When the HAZMAT truck leaves,
you can breathe a sigh of relief.

------
diogenescynic
I wish we could fine them for this. All of that landfill waste and they could
have at least given them away... Really a shame.

------
mister_hn
why not selling them, instead of destroying them?

~~~
iphone_elegance
Who would rent a scooter if you could buy one for $50?

~~~
mister_hn
but that's a massive waste of resources

------
adammunich
#uberwasteful

------
monksy
Given how bad their riders behave on the sidewalk, how they try to block the
sidewalk, and how they ignore boundries. I love the fact that scooters are
being destroyed.

~~~
jonny_eh
On the other hand, if this means more cars on the road I think it's a net loss
for everyone, including pedestrians.

~~~
monksy
What's wrong with cars on the road?

Too many cars on the road, that's a city/government issue. They should improve
and increase public transit options.

Scooters detract from public transit and from resources used to keep the city
clean and/or enforcement from the problems they create.

~~~
jonny_eh
> What's wrong with cars on the road?

Pollution, traffic, accidents.

~~~
monksy
With cars those problems are easier to fix. (You need a license to operate a
vehicle, but not a scooter).

Scooters do produce pollution (someone has to dive more than the distance of
the scooter traveled to recharge, plus the environmental cost of the
batteries, and the shorter lifespan), traffic and accidents as well.

~~~
akgerber
The lower energy due to lower speeds and vehicle masses make ebike crashes far
less severe than motor vehicle crashes. We have 40,000 dead a year in the US
in car crashes, plus three million nonfatal injuries. I'm sure someone among
your friends & family has been killed by a car crash.

This can be improved with lighter cars, lower speeds, and pedestrian safety
standards, but it can also be improved by fewer VMTs by getting more road
users on intrinsically-safer vehicles.

------
kikokikokiko
Uber should not exist. If it's still alive after the pandemic, it will only be
because of governments all around the world forcing the hand of people, with
interest rates near zero or even negative, to pour money on unsustainable
businesses like this. No company should exist that wastes as much money as
Uber, with no path to profit shown till today. Americans 401ks are going to be
devastated when this crazy easy money startup frenzy comes to an end on a
(increasingly) near future.

