

Sexism and Tech and Love - zck
http://loveandvoid.com/2013/12/16/sexism-and-tech-and-love/

======
eplanit
"For instance, once I was accused of being emotionally attached to my code (in
front of a client, might I add) – an accusation I didn’t believe anyone would
levy at a man"

In over 25 years of being in the software world (and a male), I have accused
several other males, and have been accused (esp. in the first half of this
career), of being emotionally attached to code. This happens in any and all
fields of creative construction.

Not all reference to emotion is a "code" for an antagonistic remark against
females.

I sense an ego issue here. The author repeats how she wants males to see her
as a teacher. I guess she feels that a purpose of lead role on a project is
one of educator. I think that's a misconception of that role.

~~~
tehwalrus
She says, later in the article, that this may not have been a sexist remark,
but at the time it was hard to see that. I think that's someone who's quite
good at introspection, in fact, since she anticipated your comment, or the
first part of it.

On the second half, I've never been managed by someone who I wasn't supposed
to learn something from - have you, really?

~~~
tedunangst
This is a tough rule to follow. I'm a man. I'm talking to a woman. I'm not
allowed to say anything that she thinks I wouldn't say to a man, regardless of
whether I actually would say it to a man. How am I supposed to know what that
set of things is?

Prior to reading this article, I would not have included "you're emotionally
attached to your code" in that set because that is something I would say to a
man. I can only wonder what other things I do say to men that women think I
don't say to men.

~~~
tehwalrus
Nobody is suggesting that this is something you can't say, to anyone, in an
appropriate circumstance. The author is merely explaining why it was difficult
in this case, and how it made her feel.

If the context hadn't been in front of a client, perhaps she would have been
able to _ask for clarification_ of what was meant - and the whole thing
wouldn't have cause such a big, hidden reaction in her. The context made this
more difficult that it should have been - it is not saying "don't ever say
this or you're sexist", that is what you've read into it yourself.

~~~
johnbm
The difference is that nobody cares if a man felt the same way, nor would he
feel a need to blog about it years later.

~~~
tehwalrus
...what?

Are you seriously arguing that there's a fundamental difference in the way the
sexes harbour grudges? I think you're wrong there dude...

~~~
johnbm
Look up the statistics for how men vs women participate in direct violence and
violence by proxy, and you'll see why you're wrong.

------
lizardfiz
Hi, I'm the author of this article, and reading these comments made me just
think "wow, there is so much pain here."

I assume I'll get made fun of/trolled/whatever for this, but I guess all I
really wanted to say in my article was "There were some difficult things I
experienced as a woman in tech - but these are not independent of the
difficult things men experience. We are all in this mess together."

Sexism is not men discriminating against women, it's a complicated interplay
between the roles we are expected to act, and roles we want to act, and all
genders suffer for it.

Maybe, also, I wished someone had said "I see how hard it is," when I was a
woman programmer. So, in that spirit, to all the male programmers out there "I
see how hard it is for you too."

<3

~~~
selmnoo
Thanks. <3

Speaking as a male for a moment here: in my earlier years, the reason I would
have had trouble saying something like "I see how hard it is" to a woman would
have been because I was not 'man' enough to come out and say something like
that. I'd have been afraid the woman might take it the wrong way, like as if I
was belittling her. That's how a lot of us do feel, I bet.

When I went back to school for software engineering and talked to my peers via
chat late in the night, I really just found that a lot of them are broken.
They have low self-esteem, they feel women aren't interested in them because
they're nerdy. And so, their interactions with woman -- like walking on
eggshells, trying not to embarrass themselves or get humiliated, be outed as
"clumsy-with-women", they behave in a rigid way that could possibly be
interpreted as being cold and mean to women.

I really do think you're onto something here. If more people took the
initiative in communicating feelings of care and love, things would improve.

------
blackhole
Half the comments on this page attack the following quote:

"For instance, once I was accused of being emotionally attached to my code"

Despite the fact that _in the very next paragraph_ she points out that this
was an irrational response provoked by her situation.

The comments here are completely and utterly missing the point of this
article. It is about _perception_ , and the subtle, agonizing torture that
sexism inflicts on a subconscious level that is ingrained in the tech world on
such a deep level that it is _extremely difficult to properly reason about_.

I do not have very much faith in your conclusions when you are pretending an
entire paragraph of the article doesn't exist.

~~~
thrush
Sexism is a problem in many places, especially in tech, on many levels,
degrees and for many reasons. I'd like to focus on one, which is the lack of
representation of women in tech, programmers especially. Some of the best
programmers I met in school were female, some of my best teachers were female,
and some of the most amazing people I've met in the industry are female. I've
never been at a company or place where there is only one female and I imagine
this is very hard. I also think that it is the root of the problem. Rather
than go into detail, I hope someone would chime in because I cannot directly
relate to this problem both because I am male and my past experience. I think
information from someone with a better perspective on why it is hard to be the
lone female, and what prevents other females from becoming programmers.

I would like this opportunity to reemphasize how important women have been to
the field of computer science. My mother studied computer science and is the
reason I chose to pursue it as well. One of my favorite "bad-ass" (for lack of
a better term) contributors was Grace Hopper
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper))
who created the first compiler as well as the COBOL programming language. I
hope that people respond with some of their favorite females in CS from the
past or recent years.

------
overgryphon
None of the problems she describes have to do with sexism.

She felt isolated, alone, unseen, unappreciated, and unable to teach others.
These feelings have less to do with being a woman in tech, and more to do with
her own social habits and communication skills.

If she felt alone and isolated, why didn't she socialize with her teammates
more? Organize some social events to bring everyone together? If she felt so
isolated, what was she doing to address that? Was she isolating herself?

Becoming an effective manager isn't easy or automatic. For someone to learn
from you, you need to first develop mutual trust and respect, and that can
take time. I certainly have worked for people I wasn't willing to learn from,
and that had nothing to do with their gender. I didn't respect them or trust
them as a mentor. It sounds like she resented her struggle to be a lead, and
blamed it on sexism rather than work on communication skills to learn how to
be an effective mentor.

The only sexism here seems to be her viewpoint of the men around her as
unloved, unseen, and needy for female attention. If she treated her coworkers
that way, or felt the need to distance herself because of this perspective,
that might explain why she felt isolated.

Sometimes when we're insecure about something, it makes us more brittle and
sensitive. This can make it difficult to be comfortable around others.

~~~
pyrocat
Yes let's blame the victim.

~~~
overgryphon
Are we supposed to conclude that men never feel isolated, alone, or struggle
to mentor others? She describes very common feelings and struggles related to
working in a corporate environment, and then blames them on her gender.

This made leaving tech her only option, since she can't change who she is. Had
she been a little less quick to assign sexism to fairly common struggles,
perhaps she could have explored ways to effectively address those feelings.

~~~
kaitai
Didn't you read the article? She addresses exactly the point that men feel
isolated, alone, and struggle to mentor others in paragraph 7. She also
addresses your idea that she "blames [it] on her gender." Please respond to
the article under discussion rather than a similar, but different, article.

~~~
overgryphon
Yes, which of course she attributes to men's problems with needing attention
from women who understand them.

------
tehwalrus
I think this is a very honest account on a difficult topic. Thank you for
writing it.

------
overgard
This isn't sexism, this is just a culture she doesn't like.

That's fair, maybe tech culture could be improved, but this idea that it's
because of sexism seems like a huge stretch, and the fact that it has to
change because she doesn't fit in seems extremely solipsistic on her part.

Lets think like an anthropologist for a moment: tech culture evolved over time
with it's own distinct style. Before you look to change it, perhaps understand
it? Why it is the way it is? What are its values? Why is she so special that
tech culture needs to change to suit her specific needs? Not all people are
the same. I probably wouldn't fit in in the culture of fashion, for instance,
but that's not their fault, and I wouldn't want the fashion industry to change
on my behalf.

For instance, the whole thing about how she felt upset that people didn't want
to be "educated" by her. Almost every great leader I've worked under always
had the same philosophy that they felt like they were constantly learning
things from the people below them. We have leaders, yeah, but I think in tech
the culture is a lot more collaborative -- you're in charge, but in a healthy
relationship we're both going to learn things from each other. It seems like
she was trying to be a mentor for people who didn't particularly want or need
it. Again, why is that everyone else's fault? I have empathy for her
disappointment, but that's on her.

------
voidr
> For instance, once I was accused of being emotionally attached to my code
> (in front of a client, might I add) – an accusation I didn’t believe anyone
> would levy at a man.

I have used harsher words towards males, the author just can't take a negative
criticism and is using her gender as an excuse instead of facing the facts.

> I don’t mind taking on a difficult task, I just minded having to do it alone
> and unseen.

If she has all the skills and was unfairly criticised then why can't she get
stuff alone?

How the heck does she want to educate others in this case?

~~~
angersock
In the following paragraph she dissects her reaction and tries to reason about
it--seems to come to the conclusion that she was being emotional, which isn't
an unreasonable response in that situation.

 _I have used harsher words towards males_

Wow, you must be a riot to work with.

~~~
coldtea
> _Wow, you must be a riot to work with._

And you must be a cry-baby nobody would want in his team. See how ad-hominen
cuts both ways?

Now, if we are to discuss seriously as adults, what he says sounds correct to
my experience to. In teams I've worked with (in over 5 companies), people have
said way harsher words than "you're being too emotionally attached to my
code".

Not only the project lead -- you can hear such things between team members,
even from team member to project lead. And 99% of the time it's not even taken
personally -- a little later the crisis is resolved, a decision is made, and
people are working together just fine, including having fun together with Nerf
guns or what have you, again.

~~~
a8da6b0c91d
> ad-hominen

The very words "sexist" and "racist" are really just smear words. They convey
no meaningful information and really only serve to attack a person or
institution. As soon as I hear either word I assume the user is merely axe
grinding and has no interest in conversation.

If I say "Bill is sexist", What precisely does that mean? That Bill hates all
women? That Bill generally assumes female engineers are less skilled? That
Bill will try to sleep with women he works with? As a statement it conveys
nothing. It is nothing more than an attack on Bill.

~~~
coldtea
> _The very words "sexist" and "racist" are really just smear words. They
> convey no meaningful information and really only serve to attack a person or
> institution. As soon as I hear either word I assume the user is merely axe
> grinding and has no interest in conversation._

Well, the same applies to me too -- not sure why you commented that to my
response.

Although I still believe there are some legitimate cases for the use of such
words -- a KKK member _is_ racist. A guy believing that blacks are lazy _is_
racist. Someone like Zimmerman _is_ racist. A guy hiting his wife _is_ sexist.
Somebody denying a promotion to a programmer because she's a woman, _is_
sexist.

When these terms are used by privileged people they are, more often than not,
misapplied and/or exagerrated to death. They are used as token examples of
tolerance, as a show off to how progressive they are.

~~~
dragonwriter
> A guy hiting his wife _is_ sexist.

A man can hit a woman (whether or not he is married to her) for reasons other
than her gender. So, no, I'd say this is an invalid statement (unlike your
other examples, which seem to be more valid.)

~~~
coldtea
Yeah, that's correct. I was thinking of the example of the guy beating his
wife to "put her to place" and show her who "rules the house", but clearly
there can be other examples too (and of course men hit men too, all the time).

------
booop
_" I felt like there were a thousand challenges I had to face alone, that no
one else could see. I was usually the only woman where I worked, and I felt so
isolated. More than anything else, what I found myself really wanting was for
someone to say “I see how difficult it is, and you’re doing a great job. Just
keep going.”_

Sorry, but it looks like the poster would be unhappy in a number of
professions, not just tech. As a manager you're happy when team members come
to you to talk about results, not like "I want you to know how difficult and
complex this is. It's not done yet, but I'm breaking my balls and I want you
to notice how difficult I'm finding it".

~~~
GrinningFool
It seems to me you're confusing words of encouragement and empathy with an
attitude of acceptance at lack of results.

I've had management who gives encouragement exactly as the author describes,
and it does help with my own state of mind. It does not make me think I need
to try less hard (if anything, the opposite), nor does it give me the
impression that they think it's OK I haven't produced results yet - only that
they know I'm working on it, and appreciate the effort I'm putting into it.
And that my manager is approachable, which is critically important.

In my own role in managing others, I find a bit of empathy goes a lot further
than silence when someone isn't . (And that makes it sound more cold than it
is - it's not a conscious choice of 'apply empathy, encourage employee, get
results', but rather 'hey, it sucks to be in that spot. employee should know
that I understand that - even though I still expect results.')

 _edit_ : mismatch paren

------
RyanMcGreal
Aaaaand the predictable gaggle of defensive men in tech swoop in to dismiss
and belittle the author's concerns about feeling dismissed and belittled. I
long for the day when this industry acquires the maturity and self-awareness
to understand just how unwelcome it makes itself for women.

~~~
fosap
So far I saw and feel empathy for about feeling dismissed and belittled. But
the "It's because I'm a girl card" is annoying. Could somebody please consider
that this can happen to everybody and it at least possible it has nothing to
do with your gender?

~~~
RyanMcGreal
You should probably go back and re-read the essay more carefully.

~~~
fosap
Oh, That was not a critic on the essay, but on you. The Author seems to be
quite aware that not everything is sexism, but choose a clickbait headline.

------
auggierose
I can see where she is coming from, but I think that this can only be resolved
when many more women work as programmers than they do now.

It's just a fact that men think a lot about sex, if you are the only female
person around for like 9 hours of the day, and if you are likeable and
somewhat attractive, then all these men will think a lot about having sex with
you (and trying to impress you as a result). It is obvious that this might
have its effect on workplace interactions, and usually not in a good way.

~~~
jayferd
> It's just a fact that men think a lot about sex

Please stop. This attitude is offensive to both men and women.

~~~
alexmat
I am male and I do spend a lot of time thinking about sex. It also affects the
way I interact with women as opposed to how I interact with men.

It's just like hunger. When I'm hungry, it's hard to think about things other
than food. If I'm talking to someone while hungry, and they have food, it's
really hard to focus on the conversation at hand. Worse yet, I will often ask
them if I can "get a piece of that".

~~~
webmaven
Sex isn't something that women 'have' and are refusing to share, it is a
collaborative activity.

~~~
alexmat
Right, and I'm just looking to collaborate.

------
jheriko
I found this quite interesting... nice to read something that isn't just 'lets
help women into tech', 'machismo is terrible' or 'sexism is a big problem just
for women'.

------
humanrebar
The comparison between massage and tech is not apt because, in very broad
terms, tech is mostly about knowledge and problem solving. Massage is mostly
about skill.

Both can be honorable careers if practiced honorably, but it shouldn't be
surprising that the habits and inclinations of the people in each career
differ.

A more interesting comparison would be with other types of engineers or maybe
doctors.

EDIT:

To elaborate, FTA:

> I can see that men are sometimes so desperate to be appreciated by me, they
> try to impress me and this blocks them from learning from me because they
> will find my criticism very painful.

...or they realize that employee evaluation is a hard problem, and because
they are knowledge workers they decided to focus, at least partly, on being
correct.

------
dspeyer
I think this article would be improved by removing the gender-specific parts.
All these things happen all too often in any gender configuration and are real
problems. Sexism or its spectre is a distraction.

~~~
pyrocat
It's not a distraction, it's a real issue in our industry, and one that isn't
going away by plugging our ears when people try and talk about it. Yes, these
things can happen to any gender configuration but it _predominantly_ happens
to females.

------
tomp
> That’s why I was so moved to see men being willing to learn from their
> female teachers when I took massage. I realized this is not something about
> men and women, this is not something about human nature, this is something
> about tech.

The first thought that came to my mind was, maybe it's not something about
tech, it's something about her not being as good of a teacher than her massage
teacher was.

------
Tehnix
>What I wanted, deep in my heart, was for someone to say, “Yes, I see this is
difficult for you – I see hearing that comment was hard for you because you
are worried about the sexist implications, and it was a challenge to maintain
composure in front of the client.”

So she wanted us to assume she was a fragile woman, instead of a woman able to
take critique (as the comment about emotional attachment to code is)?

Not that I'm saying she is, but, that's how I would interpret what she just
said.

Personally, I think these matters could be resolved bybetter communication
with coworkers. They need to speak up if they feel uncomfortable in their
environment. We can't read your thoughts, and, that goes for other males
aswell obviously, but, that doesn't seem to be much of an issue.

As for men trying to impress women, I would very much say this isn't limited
to tech. Maybe tech ppl more easily take a liking to their female coworkers,
but it's entirely natural to want to impress someone you like.

------
ashwinaj
It's a shame that people in tech are almost always seen as socially awkward.
There are so many of us out there who are charming, funny and can converse in
a large variety of topics at the flip of a switch. Unfortunately in today's
world a book is judged only by it's cover.

~~~
angersock
Sadly, none of that really matters all the time, right, especially on a short
time scale.

The initial stages of attraction seem to have more to do with aesthetics,
physiology, and proximity than with wit alone.

~~~
sp332
I just found this in the latest El Goonish Shive webcomic update
[http://i.imgur.com/tkZsaNd.png](http://i.imgur.com/tkZsaNd.png) This
character has been summing up my views on dating pretty well lately.

~~~
angersock
As heuristics go, this one has stood the test of time. Then again, one could
certainly argue that it assumes some correlates that are no longer true.

That said, if you're getting life advice from webcomics (or even just being
reminded of your own life), perhaps it is time to put serious effort into
getting out more.

Especially if you read Something Positive. :)

~~~
sp332
Haha, I hardly take life advice from anybody, much less webcomics :) I have no
idea what to do when I "go out" but I've been working on entertaining larger
circles of friends. It's easier for me to treat people like individuals
instead of generic strangers.

~~~
angersock
:)

------
anovikov
Sexism sucks, and stupid. I am really surprised to read things like that about
U.S. which was supposed to be an even society. In a place normally perceived
to be sexist, Belarus, girl coders are OK and i never heard about them being
joked at or harassed for being girls (while in many other professions this is
true, it's hard to imagine a female Belarusian chemical engineer). Maybe
because salaries of coders there are so much higher than of almost everybody
else, guys don't feel so confident about themselves with them to harass.

------
mrcharles
Wow. The response to this article is disgusting. Good job proving the problems
in tech, HN.

~~~
Tehnix
Care to enlighten on how it's disguting?

~~~
mrcharles
There's a complete lack of any attempt to empathize, just a quick rush to
(anecdotally) show how everything is okay, it's just this one thing, she's
overreacting, etc. Which is _exactly_ the kind of thing that causes the most
problems for women, because the result of these actions is an effective
sweeping under the rug of the very real problems facing women in tech. I mean,
most of the comments very obviously didn't even read the whole article before
rushing in a froth to make a post attacking a single isolated statement.

~~~
camelite
I had just decided against posting the following flame-bait comment until I
read this... Now I can't resist:

"The problem with conspiracy theorists is that any argument questioning the
existence of their pet conspiracy can and will be used by them as evidence
that the conspiracy exists. They are literally impossible to reason with."

Sorry...

------
angersock
_" I don’t mind taking on a difficult task, I just minded having to do it
alone and unseen."_

Better to have gotten out of tech, then.

In a culture as dominated by MVP and ship-it-now as we seem to have become,
there is not going to be much celebration of craftmanship nor craftsman.

Demand for, yes. Appreciation, no.

~

EDIT:

" _Many of them are single, many of them work 70 hour weeks for years and
survive with minimal love and compassion and kindness. They are also unseen.
There are not many people, and especially very few women, who can truly
appreciate their technical accomplishments._ "

...which introduces a very unfortunate set of circumstances where women in
tech aren't interested in guys in tech, because the guys in tech aren't well-
socialized or attractive.

Contrast this with, say, civil or chemical engineers: a good friend of mine
regularly goes to meetings of the American Society of Chemical Engineers (or
something like that?) and the demographics are even and sometimes you even
meet nice people and go out. Very different from my experience in the dev
world.

~~~
rayiner
Its really depressing when you're talking about how good guys in chemical
engineering have it...

I'm a little wary of this line of reasoning, because I don't like to imply
that women in tech should be viewed as romantic objects. I'd certainly never
date a coworker. So let me phrase it this way. I met my wife in law school and
I love the fact that she and I can talk shop and understand what the other
does for a living, especially because we're both quite passionate about our
careers. At the same time, I think woman lawyers are less likely to be viewed
as romantic prospects by their coworkers, precisely because they're not a
novelty. Its a dynamic I like better than the one I experienced in software.

------
m1117
“I see how difficult it is, and you’re doing a great job. Just keep going.”

I wish somebody was telling me this too.

"For instance, once I was accused of being emotionally attached to my code (in
front of a client, might I add) – an accusation I didn’t believe anyone would
levy at a man."

At my work we accuse each other in "This code is stupid!!!", "Don't be a
dick", "That's a f __ __d up code!! ". And it's totally sexism when the author
expect a different behavior just because it's a she.

~~~
eric_the_read
I was at a conference once where they ran a contest that had people who'd
never worked together pair-programming a solution to a problem neither of them
was an expert in. After a period of time, the various pairs presented their
solutions to a jury.

One of the pairs started off with a member saying, "Okay, this code is kind of
shit, but it's the best we could do," or words to that effect. (It was 5 or 6
years ago; I can't recall precisely what was said.)

The reply from one of the jurors has stuck with me ever since. Paraphrasing,
it was something like, "Don't ever say that about your own code. Remember, at
some point, you will always work with someone more junior than you. If they
hear you commenting like that about your own code, they're going to be much
more reluctant to approach you about problems they're having with their own."

It's partly about having a certain level of professionalism, but it's also
about trying to create an environment where people feel comfortable asking
questions about code they're unsure about, without feeling like they're going
to be attacked. Even if you don't mean it that way!

~~~
orclev
If I write shit code (and I do, because at some point we all do) and for
whatever reason I can't fix it (usually time crunch) I call it out even if
it's just a comment in the code to say "this is a terrible hack, don't do
this". It's important to recognize when code is less than ideal or when you
write something that you _know_ you could do better if you had more time to
research and think about the solution. Part of becoming a good developer is
learning to accept criticism of code not as an attack on the developer but as
recognition that there's always room to improve on things and that no one is
perfect. It's also about recognizing that sometimes you just have to accept
"good enough" and move on even if you'd really like to go for "perfect". At
the same time you don't want to throw away your standards and just settle for
anything that gets the job done if you don't absolutely need to, which is why
calling out kludges and shit code when you (or someone else) writes it is
important. Now don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to call my shit code
shit, but I'd at least try to be more tactful of someone else's code.

~~~
eric_the_read
Oh, I am certain to write code that could be described as "shit" from time to
time as well. But for myself, in that situation I try to say, "this is pretty
suboptimal, we have better solutions, but not enough time for them right now."
as opposed to "yeah, this is kinda shit."

Definitely we don't want developers who are so precious about their code that
they can't handle a little criticism, but there are, IMO, better ways and
worse ways to deliver that criticism. Think of it like a judge on Iron Chef--
the worst kind of criticism you can give a dish is, "this is terrible". Only
slightly less worse is, "this is wonderful!" Ideally, you need reviews like,
"This has a bit too much cinnamon, and I think you way overdid the cumin, but
overall this is the best shrimp I've had this week."

------
moron4hire
I'm reading responses here and I see a common thread of, "I've said much worse
things to other men." You think that excuses you? What makes you think that
would ever be acceptable behavior? Why should anyone--regardless of sex--in
any situation--regardless of private or corporate or what have you--be treated
with anything but the utmost respect?

~~~
heurist
It's not such a bad thing to say... in front of a client, sure, but in private
it can be valid criticism.

~~~
moron4hire
The entire point of being polite to people is to try to think about how they
would feel given your actions and to not try to make them feel unpleasant. You
don't just run off at the mouth, oblivious to the impact your words might have
on people.

So, given that we all know we live in a society that treats women as "overly
emotional", how could asking a woman if she was emotionally attached to her
code _not_ be inconsiderate?

Still, I cannot imagine any situation in which "were you emotionally attached
to your code" is _not_ a passive aggressive statement. Why not avoid
accusations entirely? Why not say something like, "what are your motivations
for not rewriting this code?" Let them tell you, "because I spent a lot of
time on it." That would tell you exactly the same thing and it wouldn't
involve a passive-aggressive, accusatory tone.

------
api
I don't think this is a gender thing, or at least mostly isn't. Software is
really a pretty emotionally rough field in the sense that it's got this hot-
dog show-off mentality, people are _really_ blunt with their criticisms, lots
of stop energy that you have to ignore, etc.

Personally I've found it hard as a male just because it can be so alienating,
antisocial, and generally irritating. One of the toughest things is to put a
ton of work into a new product, open source code, etc. and have people just
attack you for it... often cluelessly too or just for the sake of bashing
something.

