

Ted Kennedy has died - dzlobin
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/us/politics/27kennedy.html?hp

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dangrover
I was in Mass General Hospital about a year ago on the exact day that Kennedy
was. Strangely enough, I found out I had brain cancer too that night. Luckily,
mine was not as serious as his. I feel fortunate.

~~~
edw519
Get well, Dan.

~~~
dangrover
Oh, no, I'm perfectly fine now. I found out a month after they did the
craniotomy that it wasn't a big deal.

~~~
pgebhard
How does one discover that they have brain cancer?

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fauigerzigerk
So you're posting this here just in case hackers don't read newspapers?

~~~
stevoski
Right on. Those of us outside the states just don't care that one of your
politicians died - unless he was a competent computer expert. I come here for
"Hacker News", not political death notices.

Shall I post here when a long-serving New Zealand politician dies?

~~~
JacobAldridge
As an Australian, I care.

The influence of America on the rest of the world, particularly insignificant
antipodean islands like yours and mine, is massive and the death of Democratic
Senator #60 (I'm counting the two independents where they caucus) has
potentially large consequences for the power struggle in Washington.

That's it's Teddy Kennedy, long-time driver of Health Care reform at a time
when that's either the #1 or 2 issue in the States, makes it even more so. You
don't think efficiencies for Big Pharma in the US would affect our health
care?

Admittedly, I'm a bit of an amerophile, particularly US politics. The US
Electoral College? Possibly the greatest social hack of the 18th Century.

~~~
cturner
It's not hacker news. If you want the nytimes you know where to find it. This
post is pollution.

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mynameishere
His greatest influence on history, without comment,

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965)

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nettdata
Dennis Leary said it best: Great Senator, but a bad date.

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muriithi
What I can gather from his Wikipedia page is that Kennedy, like Clinton was a
good politician but a consummate womaniser.

I have always wondered why citizens expect politicians to be 'moral' and
whether 'immoral' politicians are necessarily bad leaders?

~~~
unalone
America's got a fucked-up sense of morality. Everybody's messed up in one way
or another romantically. We have a distorted sense of expectation, mixed with
a bunch of weird ideas about what's appropriate and what isn't.

There've been many perfect gentlemen politicians that were terrible. I hope
one day we start judging politicians the way we would businessmen, wherein
personal life matters less than performance.

~~~
nandemo
Just a minor quibble, not meant to detract your point: it's curious that even
as you criticize America's sense of morality, you seem to use "gentlemen" as
opposed to "womanizer".

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oldgregg
Sad to see him go-- on the upside, he can finally be reunited with his
brothers and old family friends like Mary Jo Kopechne and Martha Moxley.

~~~
pwmanagerdied
Except that he won't.

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larryfreeman
He did the seeming impossible: he lived up to the reputation of his brothers
as their equal. An amazing senator. A very great loss.

~~~
blasdel
While Ted was _a pretty cool guy, eh garnered appropriations and doesn't
afraid of anything_ , I don't think anyone could really live up to his
brothers.

John was an order of magnitude greater, and Bobby was at least an order of
magnitude greater than that!

Bobby was everything Obama aspires to be and more. His assassination was
probably the worst event of '68 -- and a fuckton of awful shit happened that
year: the crushing of Prague Spring, the events of May in Paris, MLK's
assassination, the DNC in Chicago, the burning of DC, Nixon's election -- it
was the last gasp of modernity. I can't think about it without crying.

~~~
aquateen
How are you quantifying greatness? Everyone on this site loves to say "order
of magnitude."

~~~
blasdel
It lets you specify scale without any unwanted precision

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sev
This man's presence was earth-shattering. His legend will be even more so. The
world has a lot to learn from him. RIP

~~~
idlewords
What is Ted Kennedy's lesson for the world? From my perspective, the guy was a
career politician and part of an unpleasant dynastic trend in American
government. How would the world be different had Kennedy not lived?

~~~
TomOfTTB
Especially this one. I'm hesitant to comment on this because this article
really doesn't belong here. But the fact remains Ted Kennedy left a woman for
dead after driving his car into a body of water. He didn't contact the
authorities when it happened, he instead went back to his hotel. When at his
hotel (and I take this quote from the Wikipedia entry) he...

"According to his own testimony, Kennedy swam across the 500-foot channel,
back to Edgartown and returned to his hotel room, where he removed his clothes
and collapsed on his bed. Hearing noises, he later put on dry clothes and
asked someone what the time was: it was something like 2:30 a.m., the senator
recalled. He testified that, as the night went on, "I almost tossed and turned
and walked around that room ... I had not given up hope all night long that,
by some miracle, Mary Jo would have escaped from the car." Back at his hotel,
Kennedy complained at 2:55 am to the hotel owner that he had been awoken by a
noisy party"

So he's complaining about the noise keeping him up while this woman's still at
the bottom of the sea. The next morning (again from Wikipedia)...

"By 7:30 am the next morning he was talking "casually" to the winner of the
previous day's sailing race, with no indication that anything was amiss.[2] At
8 a.m., Gargan and Markham joined Kennedy at his hotel where they had a
"heated conversation." According to Kennedy's testimony, the two men asked why
he hadn't reported the accident. Kennedy responded by telling them "about my
own thoughts and feelings as I swam across that channel ... that somehow when
they arrived in the morning that they were going to say that Mary Jo was still
alive"

And the final kicker, he didn't contact the authorities until the body was
found and the woman probably survived the crash. One last quote...

"Earlier that morning, two amateur fishermen had seen the overturned car in
the water and notified the inhabitants of the nearest cottage to the pond, who
called the authorities at around 8:20 am.[14] A diver was sent down and
discovered Kopechne's body at around 8:45 am.[15] The diver, John Farrar,
later testified at the inquest that Kopechne's body was pressed up in the car
in the spot where an air bubble would have formed. He interpreted this to mean
that Kopechne had survived for a while after the initial accident in the air
bubble, and concluded that

"Had I received a call within five to ten minutes of the accident occurring,
and was able, as I was the following morning, to be at the victim's side
within twenty-five minutes of receiving the call, in such event there is a
strong possibility that she would have been alive on removal from the
submerged car."

So had he contacted the authorities she could have lived. And for all that he
got a suspended sentence because he's rich and has a powerful family. I won't
demonize the dead but I'm not going to sit by and let people lionize him
either.

How is it that people can bash Michael Jackson after unproven accusations but
let Kennedy off even though he admits to everything laid out above?

~~~
unalone
Perhaps those of us that like Ted Kennedy weren't the ones bashing Michael
Jackson?

I'm inclined to forgive people their many, many errors. I see no harm in
looking at a man's accomplishments and ignoring his failures.

Michael Jackson was a man who changed the entertainment world. Ted Kennedy
spent decades fighting for his causes without rest. Each did unpleasant
things, but those things don't eliminate the good each did.

~~~
TomOfTTB
I do see a problem in ignoring a fault when that fault is "killed someone and
received no punishment for it". It's an injustice to the victim to do anything
else.

If Justice is not an ideal you hold than you wouldn't agree with me on that.

~~~
unalone
Suggesting I don't believe in justice because I like Ted Kennedy? That's a bit
vicious, don't you think?

Look, I think that Ted deserved punishment for what he did. Of course he did.
At the same time, I can't blame him for using connections to get out of that
mess. I'll be totally honest and say that if I fucked up big-time, I'd do
everything I could to avoid years in prison for it. Not because I think people
should get away with killing people, but because years in prison is a
terrifying punishment. So while I kind of wish he'd been given more than a
slap on the wrist, I don't hold it against him that he wasn't punished.

To suggest that he wasn't changed by what he did, however, is ludicrous. I'm
certain he was haunted by that incident for a long, long time, and that it
changed who he was as a person. Certainly the Ted Kennedy that died today was
not the Ted Kennedy that once abandoned a dying woman.

We all grow up and leave our tragic youths behind. Some youths are just much
more tragic than others.

~~~
ErrantX
> Certainly the Ted Kennedy that died today was not the Ted Kennedy that once
> abandoned a dying woman.

In my experience that is a fallacy. Besides he was a politician - they know
all about expected response. I don't think anyone here can make a statement
like that.

(I know nothing about him, but it was a pretty sick thing to do. He certainly
deserved a worse punishment)

~~~
unalone
He did. But avoiding punishment for that crime does not immediately make him a
terrible human being, or a human being that's incapable of changing. He
certainly changed, and for the better.

(I'll ignore the "he was a politician" quip, which proves nothing and says
nothing.)

~~~
ErrantX
> (I'll ignore the "he was a politician" quip, which proves nothing and says
> nothing.

That wasn't meant in the way you probably read it. Being a politician is a
skill just like any job

As I said I don't know much about the guy, but in my experience of people in
such a position (a public post) there is a difference between real change and
the change we see :)

I'm just saying: only a few people (i.e. the close family) really could make a
statement like that :)

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dgabriel
Ok, now I see why we should stay away from politics on HN. Too many people are
downvoting/upvoting based on their political perceptions of TK. Do you really
need to downvote someone into the negative for simply saying they liked the
guy?

~~~
unalone
Jeez, they downvoted you for it, too.

Hacker News is very mature regarding certain things; regarding others, they
act like kneejerk jackasses. Politics is one of the latter categories.

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danielrhodes
For those of you who are questioning why this deserves to be here: obviously
HN is predominantly tech/entrepreneur related, but don't be so fundamentalist
about it. Ted Kennedy was a prolific senator who was one of the most
influential members of the most powerful government in the world -- his death
deserves discussion not just among those interested in politics but in other
circles as well. HN has a great community where people value good analysis and
feedback, why not occasionally apply those positive aspects to other topics as
well?

~~~
unalone
There's a value in asking whether something's Hacker News or not. In the end,
_we_ are the users, and _we_ decide what we want to see. When we don't like
what we see, however, there's no harm in discussing it, in the hope that like-
minded people see it and are inspired.

~~~
danielrhodes
That's what the voting buttons next to the story are for. If you discuss the
article itself, then you should add value to the discussion. Complaining about
the presence of the story itself when the community obviously voted it up to
the top is not adding value, it's only adding negativity.

~~~
unalone
I would agree if there was a downvote option, so that people who don't like a
story could have a say. As it is, a vocal-and-irritating minority can push
stories to the top without anybody else being able to stop it.

(I don't refer to this story when I say that, mind you. We all have our pet
peeves.)

~~~
andreyf
A clever solution would be a downvote button that behaves the same as the
"flag" link ;)

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asciilifeform
Why is this here? I'm a US citizen and I still don't think it ought to be.

~~~
TheElder
It shouldn't be, but politics is a religion for many who lean left. One of the
biggest liberal names just passed away, so it's here. My comment is way out of
line, but so is this submission, but that's what happens when politics is
introduced.

~~~
biohacker42
_It shouldn't be, but politics is a religion for many who lean left_

Aw crap, you and I are now gong to start a political argument on HN. Well it's
a Ted Kennedy story so here we go.

A clear majority of hackers, including me, are libertarians, not liberals. And
I guess (but actually mostly hope) most of the HN readership is libertarian.

And I definitely don't think this belongs on HN. But I also very much doubt
"liberals" are voting it up.

~~~
TheElder
I'll end it. I hope you have a wonderful day my dear HN friend.

~~~
biohacker42
Thank you, and the same to you my friend.

------
kingkawn
If still alive he'd be a major force for passing the kind of healthcare
legislation that could have liberated Americans from employer-provided
insurance as the only option. This would have freed a great deal of energy for
risks like starting a business. That he became sick and died now is a a loss
of leadership in the effort to make the dynamism of entrepreneurship, among
other things, available to more people.

~~~
protomyth
The government is treaty-obligated to provide health care to a section of the
population and are doing a offensive job. If they can't do it right for ~7
million Native Americans, what chance do they have to do it right for the rest
of the USA?

~~~
kingkawn
They do it right for veterans, and they even do it fairly well for the
elderly. Why not everyone else?

~~~
protomyth
From personal experience of friends, they mess up a lot of veterans' lives,
and that, in my mind, is a serious breach of trust. Look at the recent
scandals in the VA for incidents.

~~~
kingkawn
Seriously even with the scandals the veterans' lives are not peachy until they
hit the VA. Iraq?

I was in and out of a lot of Veterans hospitals when I worked in an ambulance,
they have fantastic care if you give it some context with the rest of the
healthcare system.

------
johnohara
Like so many on both sides of the aisle, he was too long a 'public servant.'
Rest and be at peace.

------
ivankirigin
I heard some young girl was drunk and got in a car accident, and left him for
dead. (too soon?)

~~~
msie
I heard that some guy joined Facebook and left TipJoy for dead. (too soon?) ;)

~~~
ivankirigin
lol.

On a serious note, I wrote the comment mainly because people ignore
manslaughter, which is inexcusable. But also because a person that spends
years in public office isn't there "for the public good". That's just rhetoric
that gets people elected. I'm amazed people still buy into the idea that
politicians are good people. Enterprising startup founders, or even
miscellaneous hackers working on interesting projects, do far more for the
public good.

------
gaius
Man, 77, dies.

------
Mystalic
This may not be tech, but the impact he's made is bigger than any one
industry.

------
biohacker42
Also, Michael Jackson - still dead!

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zeynel1
Where is the flag button?

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ecq
he is a great man. rest in peace.

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fretlessjazz
To comprehend the breadth of this man's persona, ask yourself "what do I do
each day to help other people?" The man never stopped.

~~~
CamperBob
I volunteer as a lifeguard.

~~~
fretlessjazz
At 10,000 swimming pools at once?

~~~
patio11
The comment was probably in reference to the incident at Chappaquiddick rather
than a suggestion that one would be more effective at saving lives as a
lifeguard than as a Senator wielding enormous influence.

In the version of events most favorable to Kennedy, he suffered a tragic lapse
in judgment (failing to summon aid) which compounded the results of an
unfortunate auto accident, and a young woman drowned as a result.

The version which is more charitable to the truth and less charitable to
Kennedy: He was drunk driving late at night on an isolated road with a young
woman who was not his wife. He got into a car accident, which involved his car
falling into the water with the two of them in it. After extracting himself
from the car, he went home, went to sleep, woke up, talked to his political
advisers, then called the police and informed them that there had been an
accident.

For normal Americans, that would have resulted in an investigation followed by
manslaughter charges. Kennedy was never a normal American. He got off with a
wrist slap after pleading guilty to leaving the scene of an accident.

The whitewashing of this incident has always been a stitch in the craw of his
political opponents. His political supporters say some variant of the
following every time it gets brought up: mistakes were made, it is long in the
past, nothing was ever proven, and now is not the right time to mention it.

I'm sort of unsure about the etiquette myself. What's the polite way to say
"Ted Kennedy was a man who did many things unrelated to causing the death of
his paramour in the cause of protecting his political career"?

~~~
fretlessjazz
Thanks for your clarification and insight:)

Being born in 1981, I'll write my previous comment off to generational
ignorance.

I appreciate your thorough and thoughtful response.

~~~
jacquesm
The year you were born in can not be an excuse for ignorance on any level.
Yesterday it was 'the holocaust was before my time', now this.

There are history books aplenty out there.

~~~
unalone
I wasn't aware, Jacques, that it was our responsibility to be aware of every
tragedy and every death in the history of mankind.

I could spend years studying every genocide, every cruelty, going on in the
world today, all of which are worse than a single drunk driving accident. I
could spend years and plummet into the darker parts of the world. I choose not
to.

Not knowing who Ted Kennedy is an ignorance that can surely be forgiven.

~~~
jacquesm
Absolutely.

But if someone insists on having a strong opinion on something without
studying it and then uses the 'before I was born' argument to be excused I
think that's pretty weak.

The fact that a man has died is no reason to drop objectivity about that man.

There was plenty good about Ted Kennedy, there was plenty of bad stuff too.
Like almost any human being alive today, I'd imagine.

Some of the stuff he did was at best misguided, at worst criminal neglect. He
seemed to have been more protective of his career than of the life of a human
being when it mattered most. I know politicians are 'survival masters' but
that particular incident should have cost him his career and some jail time at
a minimum.

What kind of an example does that set for 'lesser' mortals ?

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flipper
An oblique link to HN - Kennedy was a senator for Massachusetts, the original
home of YC.

------
anigbrowl
.

(edit: I have nothing to say, and I'm saying it. You don't have to upvote it
but it isn't meant as a comment to be downvoted either, just an
acknowledgment).

~~~
sho


~~~
sho
What? I was showing him how to do it!

Man people sure are happy on the down-arrow today.

~~~
unalone
The period is common practice on some sites. I think it originated with
Metafilter?

It loses something when comments are voted up and down and not shown in
descending order, but the sentiment is still nice.

~~~
sho
Oh, I see, thanks for the explanation.

My character was U+3000, "ideographic space", in case anyone's interested.

