
In China, Your Credit Score Is Affected by Your Political Opinions - peterkelly
https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2015/10/in-china-your-credit-score-is-now-affected-by-your-political-opinions-and-your-friends-political-opinions/
======
Animats
This seems to be Alibaba coming up with a credit scoring system for people who
don't have banking relationships. Here's more info.[1] The People's Bank of
China already has a more traditional credit rating system. But most people in
China don't have a credit rating in any form.[2] This seems to be a scheme to
get the rest of the population plugged into the system. There's a Government
policy document on this "social credit system".[3] The Alibaba thing appears
to be a trial under that system.

Of course, it's a Government control thing, too. But China already had that -
it's called a dangan. In China, many people really did have a Permanent
Record. That's not as important as it used to be, because it was employer-
maintained, mostly by state employers. With more private employers, it's less
of an issue. This new system may become a modernized version of the dangan.

China has a centuries-long history of keeping records on everyone. The old
systems worked when there was very limited population mobility and job
mobility. Now, with a more flexible workforce, the old system is getting an
upgrade.

[1]
[http://www.chinadailyasia.com/business/2015-06/09/content_15...](http://www.chinadailyasia.com/business/2015-06/09/content_15274221.html)
[2] [http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/05/08/why-there-are-no-
credit-...](http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/05/08/why-there-are-no-credit-
scores-in-china/) [3]
[https://chinacopyrightandmedia.wordpress.com/2014/06/14/plan...](https://chinacopyrightandmedia.wordpress.com/2014/06/14/planning-
outline-for-the-construction-of-a-social-credit-system-2014-2020/)

~~~
blazespin
Eww ewww ewww! I never realized it was this bad. You have a funny idea of
"worked". This seems like pure evil oppression. Long live freedom of speech.
That being said we have a similar thing in the west, like clearance that you
need for some government jobs(checks your connections to enemy states, drug
use, general untrustworthy behavior). Fortunately, such government jobs isn't
too big part of the economy. Ideally we'll keep it that way.

~~~
nxb
But go talk to some people who've only ever experienced these types of
business cultures, and they'll start listing for you a ton of reasons why it
would be IMPOSSIBLE for the business world to operate as well or better, if it
were any other way.

These slavery books are still pretty common in parts of Europe too.

~~~
thesz
I think you are talking about трудовые книжки (work books) in relatively
modern Russia.

Basically, it is a resume in regulated form. Nothing more or less. Certainly
not slavery book.

~~~
nxb
Talking about another country.

Regardless, US culture says that this sort of thing gives the employer far too
much power over the employee, and that there are plenty of unscrupulous
employers who use that leverage against the employees to make them do what
they want, far beyond what the US considers appropriate.

EEU culture typically says the world is far worse without these books and that
there couldn't possibly be any downsides that outweigh the costs, or that
there are bandaids which could theoretically fix any problems with it.

Neither side will likely ever convince the other side on this topic, so no
point in arguing about it :)

------
cm2187
In a country where lobying for the wrong political opinions can land you in
jail, it is actually rational to treat political opinions in the same way as
potential criminal behavior from a credit scoring point of view. Particularly
in a country where it also works the other way round, where having the right
proximity with the party can be very lucrative.

------
jensen123
"Such people will also be barred from serving in certain high-status and
influential positions, like government official, reporter, CEO, statistician,
and similar."

For all practical purposes, I don't think this would be so different from what
we already have in the West for people like CEOs, government officials,
reporters etc. These people seem to be kicked out as soon as they do something
politically incorrect. They don't seem to have much freedom. For example, the
CEO of Mozilla who gave like 1000 dollars to some anti-gay cause like 10 years
ago, or the CEO of BP who hired gay escorts or John Derbyshire who wrote
something unflattering about blacks.

Ok, it's not the government doing it in the West, but the majority mob. But
does it really matter whether it's some elitist government or the majority in
a democracy doing it?

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
There is a huge difference between social pressure to quit for believing some
humans are worth less than others, and the Government forcing you to quit
because you made a minor comment on the stock exchange crash.

Do you think that it would somehow be better if the beliefs of people with
power were _not_ questioned?

~~~
blisterpeanuts
That's quite a leap from the three examples you gave to "believing some humans
are worth less than others".

~~~
notahacker
But, in fairness, not as big as a leap as the OP from _three unconnected
people got fired for behaviours some people might consider to be a matter of
conscience_ to _people holding certain views are effectively barred from
senior positions in the US_.

In practice, the examples aren't very good: John Derbyshire was writing
controversial material on race for years before _National Review_ decided some
of his articles in other publications were damaging their own reputation, at
which point he promptly got a job at another publication that saw his extreme
racism as an asset; Eich's resignation was extremely unusual and has the
obvious counterexample of Kim Davis' job being well protected even when her
political stance meant refusing to fulfil some of its requirements, and I'm
not convinced that senior executives sometimes quitting over embarrassing
revelations about their private life is really a sign that their employability
is conditional on them holding certain sets of political views.

------
akramar
> our credit score is simple... It’s measured from our assets, our income, and
> if we have bought on credit in the past and managed it well.

Having worked in mortgage lending for many years, I'd like to point out that
this isn't true. Your score (generated by the big 3 bureaus) does not take
income or assets into account, it's based on credit utilization, payment
history, and similar factors reported by your existing creditors and public
records (BKs, judgments). That's why more factors go into extending you credit
(credit card, mortgage, auto loan), than your score alone.

~~~
marincounty
I still believe credit card companies redline communities in America. I have
gotten better cc offers in the better--strike better; richer postal codes. I
can't prove it though.

One of my biggest mistake was using a credit card. I wish I threw out that
first one I received upon graduation.

~~~
Vraxx
As an aside to your main point, I am curious about why you have a complete
disdain for using credit cards. I'm certainly not advocating using a credit
card to spend beyond your limits, but intelligent application of a credit card
can just net you assets. I'd also like to point out that I find the motives of
credit card companies to encourage people to spend beyond their limits through
temporary/immediate convenience deplorable, but that is not the only use case
for these cards.

For example I have a cash back credit card that I run every purchase that
doesn't entail a fee for credit card usage through and pay it off immediately.
I accrue/pay no interest, and still don't spend beyond my means, but I get a
discount everywhere.

------
zcbenz
There is no evidence that the credit score is affected by political opinions,
the only quote “Sesame Credit, however, also uses other data to calculate the
scores, such as a person’s hobbies, interaction with friends, shopping habits
and lifestyle.” says nothing about political opinions, and I can verify there
is no related thing on Sesame Credit's website (Chinese is my native
language).

Also Sesame Credit is a private company, it is absolutely not equal to China.

~~~
United857
In the US, the credit scores are maintained by private companies as well. Yet,
they still can potentially affect your interactions with the government (e.g.
applying for government jobs requiring security clearance).

------
visarga
I foresaw this happening when the Snowden leaks broke out, but I am still
surprised to see it come so soon. With so much data in their hands, it's not
hard to predict that they would want to boil it down to a simple numerical
score. Google does it with Page Rank and it decides everything with regard to
search engine visibility.

If the gov. took a log of someone's search engine queries, social networking
posts, travels (GPS phone location logs), purchases and her list of friends it
would be pretty easy to rate this person according to various criteria. They
would need to have a dataset of people and their real world actions in order
to train a classifier to predict scores for people based on just their digital
traces.

I don't know if it would work though, until tested. Maybe there is no
correlation between what people post and what they do.

The counterpoint is that people could use this same system to rate their
actions before they act. Imagine a plugin that would warn you before you post
some opinion on social networks or add someone to your friend list that it
would decrease your rating by 10 points(!) Then you could select which actions
you want to do and avoid reducing your score. That would make the rating
system meaningless.

The same system could be applied to rank people for their support for equality
and freedom. It would make it hard for some to pose as freedom lovers when
they act in a way that promotes discrimination.

But either way, we will all act like politicians during political campaigns.
Everything people would say would be weighed for the purpose of getting what
they desire.

And it doesn't stop here. The bubbling effect in Google, FB and other news
feeds would be used to select which stories to show in order to manipulate
everyone according to someone else's interests. This slowly morphs into a kind
of soft dictatorship, where you are controlled without even realizing it. Even
if it wouldn't work on each individual, it would work on average.

That's why Facebook has become so important to elections lately. There is no
political candidate that can ignore the FB tribe and its effects. It makes or
breaks a campaign, and makes Zuck into a kind of huge power broker. But if a
state wants to get its way no matter what (doing what China does now), FB
would be a small child compared to the real world consequences they could
unleash based on scoring.

~~~
throwaway7767
> The counterpoint is that people could use this same system to rate their
> actions before they act. Imagine a plugin that would warn you before you
> post some opinion on social networks or add someone to your friend list that
> it would decrease your rating by 10 points(!) Then you could select which
> actions you want to do and avoid reducing your score. That would make the
> rating system meaningless.

No, it would make the system highly effective; control of discourse through
the exercise of "soft power". No need to proactively censor if you train
people to do it themselves.

This is the end result of the chilling effect mass surveillance has on human
communications. And it's frightening.

~~~
visarga
> This is the end result of the chilling effect mass surveillance has on human
> communications.

The only private place we could have is in our heads, or maybe if we wear one
of those "laptop socks" and play with a device disconnected from the web
(LOL). Now, seriously, we could still discuss politics anonymously, but we
need a guardian to keep us from revealing too much so as our identity never to
be known. An anonymous forum with AI working hard to protect people from
detection.

------
blisterpeanuts
It seems to me that this credit score system--if real--would ultimately be
self-defeating, for two reasons.

First, among a cynical and rebellious youth population, a low score would
become a prestigious thing, proof of your courage and gutsy attitude, a kind
of street cred.

Second, it would limit economic activity. If you cut off millions of people
from car loans on the basis of their questionable postings or online
affiliations, the ones really hurt will be the banks and car companies.
Idiotic, and would lead to many companies disregarding the "credit" scores.

I don't see this as workable, though it does sound like something the
government would like to have.

~~~
westiseast
Not sure what your understanding of China is, but I want to correct your
assumption of (1).

Most Chinese youth _arent_ rebellious in any substantial way. They've grown up
in an environment that is strongly Confucian, and there isn't really this "be
what you want to be, break free, live life, freedom of youth" narrative that
we have in most of the developed world. Kids are very very unrebellious and I
doubt there would grow a culture of 'showing off' your bad credit score.

On the 2nd point, I'm not sure either. The political element of this is likely
to be a small factor, not a prime one. The government tends to be very
specific these days about targeting people who are activists rather than
cracking down on anyone who says anything. Finally, people in China are
generally used to this kind of BS, and whether consciously or through
'brainwashing', they don't tend to randomly spout political positions or anti-
government rhetoric unless they know they are on safe ground. I don't mean it
won't be an oppressive, inefficient, opaque and abused system, just that it
won't result in millions being locked out of loans or the economy suffering
that much.

~~~
notahacker
On the second point, presumably companies providing finance actually benefit
from a scoring system which negatively weights people's propensity to involve
themselves in the sort of "activism" the Chinese government tends to sanction
them for. People imprisoned, prevented from finding employment or with assets
frozen tend to miss payments on their loans.

~~~
westiseast
Statistically speaking, in the current climate I bet there are more government
officials getting arrested and losing their assets on corruption charges than
there are activists suffering the same.

One social factor that might be important is that people who complain/moan/get
hung up on politics and principles aren't very likely to succeed in a country
where you have to be very bloodyminded and flexible to deal with the amoral
business environment in China. I would guess that if a person is constantly
sending anti-government or whiney political messages, it's kind of like a
'loser' stamp here, and that might affect your credit score.

------
xiaq
> If you’re buying things that the regime appreciates, like dishwashers and
> baby supplies, your credit score increases. If you’re buying videogames,
> your score takes a negative hit.

> But China has already announced that it, or something very like it, will
> become mandatory from 2020.

> But the kicker is that if any of your friends do this — publish opinions
> without prior permission, or report accurate but embarrassing news — your
> score will also deteriorate.

Why should I believe those things instead of all those propaganda nonsense? A
big "[citation needed]" label is missing beside every sentence in this
article...

------
legulere
> And at 750, you get a similar fast track to a coveted Schengen visa.

It's a visa to Luxembourg according to the link, so Luxembourg needs to be the
main place to stay. Also not really strange that they will take a credit
score. Usually (when applying to a German visa as someone from mainland China)
you need to show that you have a steady income and need to provide bank
account statements that show that you have enough money to sustain yourself.

It also criticizes that other people have an influence over the credit score.
This is done because there's not enough data and regularly happens in other
countries (e.g. taking into account where you live).

That it will be used for political control is certainly a valid fear, but it
doesn't seem to be reality yet like claimed in the article.

------
jmnicolas
In France there's no such thing as the credit score. Of course banks probably
(certainly) have something to rate their customers, but it's not public.

And from what I can read about the credit score, I don't think we're missing
much.

~~~
Pyxl101
So, how do banks decide how much to loan you, if you want a loan, or at what
interest rate?

My history of being responsible with debt enables me to borrow large amounts
of money while putting a small percentage down, and paying a small percentage
interest (3.375%) on the principal. Banks can compete to offer better rates or
terms on a loan like that (home mortgage, USA).

Some notion of a credit score, or a person's general creditworthiness is
necessary for there to be competition in the loan market. Otherwise how would
it work - banks are equally willing to loan to all people, despite their
income, savings, and history of paying back loans reliably?

It can be abused but it generally seems to promote an efficient marketplace
for loans.

~~~
spinchange
A numerical credit score is only one data point in a lending decision, albiet
an important and useful summary one.

In mortgage lending they call this concept the "5 C's" of credit: character,
capital, capacity, conditions and collateral. Character speaks to credit
history. The credit scores are driven by "tradeline" payment history but
lenders can independently verify that information- you disclose all your
liabilities at application anyway, they can independently verify them, their
history, and base an underwriting decison and price accordingly.

Credit scores are not necessary for competition in the loan market - lending
has existed as long as commerce has. They do facilite faster lending descisons
and reduce the processing and underwriting workload for lenders.

Historically (at least in America) banks absolutely have not been willing to
lend to all comers who could repay and credit scores have probably served to
equalize access to credit for more people in a way that wouldn't have happened
without them, but they aren't strictly necessary to make or get a loan or even
have a market for them. It's just more work for the lenders.

------
methou
This can't be more ridiculous, whoever wrote this article has no idea what
Sesame score is, but I do agree with the author that the totalitarian
government in China does have the intentions to associate not political
opinions with credit system, they may wants to add morality in to account
also.

Sesame score is less than harmless, and to most extent, less than useless.
China already has a political rating system it's called 档案(Personal Record
File). Actually it has acted a crucial part in Chinese society, individual
themselves aren't allowed to access their own file, and records inputs we
given by their supervisors. You will have your record with you since
elementary school, or even earlier. It was serious in 80s and early 90s where
state owns everything, you can imagine how hard for an individual to live back
in the old days. Since private firms became the mainstream and acts an
important role in the Chinese economic structure, these files are no longer
required for private owners. As of today, it's only important if you work for
state owned units, but it still works, and alive.

If the totalitarian government wants to make a political evaluation system,
they can just make use of 档案, plus minus Internet surveillance data they
gathered all the time. There's no need of data from any parts that
Alibaba(NASDAQ:BABA) owns, Weibo(NASDAQ:WB) is the most influential social
network in China, but a local government/state-owned companies easily take
down any information they think inappropriate. They do have have read/write
privileges to these information, not to mention other minor ones. As for data
mining, not a problem, given the resource they have.

Also they don't need something like a smokescreen, or justification for that,
since there's already a similar system working, it's easier to maintain that
start a new one.

Sesame is merely a joke in the game of privacy-invasion, or credit scoring.
Consumers don't care about their sesame score, since they can't make use of
it. The imaginary party they 'are trying to serve' in the article, doesn't
need them. Though the Aligroup tried to do some evil, but was too dubious and
obvious. Last time they tried really hard to do some evil deeds and do crossed
some lines by calling your friends telling them your purchases when you have
overdue bills for sometime[1]. Things like such makes people question their
capabilities of being evil, also ability to score people's credit correctly.

[1]
[http://www.zhihu.com/question/35586955](http://www.zhihu.com/question/35586955)
(Chinese)

------
pavornyoh
I am curious to see how that is calculated and what percentage it is of the
950 score. An absurd decision if you ask me.

~~~
prewett
This is a perfectly rational decision, you just need to look at it from the
value system making the decision. The Party's #1 goal is to remain in power.
Pretty much everything they do is with that in mind. They also seem to assume
that revolution is always knocking at the door. [1] Communism has had a long
history of ideological coercion (it's pretty much a founding principle), so
this sort of thing should come as no surprise. In fact, it's a lot more subtle
than most. [2]

[1] This may not be so far-fetched. Several years ago a Party document was
released documenting 100k or 200k protests, ranging from small to large. When
the bullet train derailed 3 or 5 years ago, Weibo went wild within minutes and
ultimately some provincial Party officials took the fall. And the example of
Arab Spring has got to be pretty scary.

[2] I don't know if it is true anymore, but historically people were
encouraged to rat out neighbors with ideological deficiencies. Not just in
China, this is pretty much standard fare in totalitarian states.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
China always expecting revolution makes sense. It was founded by revolution.

------
dang
This is fascinating but also tendentious. Is the information reliable? If not,
is there a more accurate source?

~~~
mtgx
A source from earlier this year:

[http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/china-rates-its-own-
citi...](http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/china-rates-its-own-citizens-
including-online-behaviour~a3979668/)

And one from last year:

[https://chinacopyrightandmedia.wordpress.com/2014/06/14/plan...](https://chinacopyrightandmedia.wordpress.com/2014/06/14/planning-
outline-for-the-construction-of-a-social-credit-system-2014-2020/)

------
smoyer
Did anyone else reading the headline expect some equivalent to "In Soviet
Russia ..."?

The article is a bit more informative than I was expecting but I have one
quibble. The sentence "In the West, our credit score is simple. It’s our
ability to pay." is incorrect. Our credit score is actually our propensity to
pay (and ability to pay is just one facet of that propensity). I know plenty
of wealthy people with poor credit scores - some because they're poor at
managing their money but there are a surprising number who simply want to hold
onto their wealth (and don't care how their credit score is affected).

~~~
PythonicAlpha
In the West -- at least in Western Germany -- the credit score is _not_ your
ability to pay.

It is, how the score company things, how likely you will pay.

I know, that for example, there street you live in is one factor used in your
credit score. When you seldom have credits or the score company has to limited
data about you, such information can be decisive.

There are known cases in Germany, where well off people, who also regularly
pay their bills got a bad score, just because the score company used some very
limited data and statistical guesswork to simply guess a score.

------
ryanlol
It's sad to see Rick Falkvinge seemingly advocating for a company that claims
it doesn't have to comply with subpoenas while operating in the US.

~~~
Falkvinge
I'll support most entities - not only corporations - that put people's rights
ahead of government agencies' data cleptocracy.

~~~
ryanlol
Even the ones that grossly misrepresent the services they provide?

PIAs marketing straight up exploits people who aren't tech savvy enough to
understand that the promises they make are meaningless.

------
p4sh4
"But China has already announced that it, or something very like it, will
become mandatory from 2020."

Any source besides this? [http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/china-rates-its-
own-citi...](http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/china-rates-its-own-citizens-
including-online-behaviour~a3979668/)

------
amyjess
By the way, people on reddit are already using this for blackmail purposes (or
at least claiming to do so):
[https://np.reddit.com/r/CCJ2/comments/3nhx70/hugs_and_kisses...](https://np.reddit.com/r/CCJ2/comments/3nhx70/hugs_and_kisses_for_all_of_you/)

------
erikb
Why is this surprising? Everywhere every score is affected by what the people
think about you who can influence the rating. That's why people work so hard
to look good. That's why employees work unpaid nightshifts and extra hours
without telling their bosses. That's why salespeople will laugh about your
joke, no matter how bad it is.

~~~
westiseast
That's _very_ disingenuous - despite that this is sadly 'par for the course'
in China, there is a world of difference between what you're talking about and
what this article is suggesting.

Imagine in 2009 you forwarded a story to a friend in a private conversation
thread on a private computer using commercial software about a corrupt village
official that everyone was talking about. Jump to 2016 and now that guy is the
provincial governor and nobody in your extended family can get even a $100
loan for anything.

Thats very, very different from sucking up to your boss by working extra hours
for free.

------
ck2
In China your freedom or even your lifespan might be affected by your
political opinions.

------
1971genocide
Does anyone know why pia is blocked in the UK ? Page is not opening.

~~~
mtgx
Probably for the simple fact that it's a VPN service...so they blocked it with
the "porn filter".

~~~
prodmerc
Do they block domains with the keywords "privacy" "private" in them?

------
geldedus
Of course it is. China is a communist country, where's the news? This is how
communist countries work.

------
PythonicAlpha
A similar thing could happen in the west. Some time ago, it was in the news,
that Facebook got a patent on credit scoring depending on your friends and
social network.

With the wrong (maybe leftist or file-sharing) friends, your credit score
could drop in the near future.

