
The Differences Between Germany and the United States - kumarski
http://math-www.uni-paderborn.de/~axel/us-d.html
======
tseabrooks
The article is interesting even if bits and pieces are out of date. It's nice
to see other's viewpoints.

My one complaint about this article, and a lot of articles of the same ilk, is
the part where Americans get criticized for not "traveling abroad" and not
"seeing foreign countries".

I suspect most american's will travel more MILES than the average european
without ever seeing another country. It's far far more expensive for an
American to visit other western countries than it is for the average European.
We'd absolutely LOVE to be able to fly to France for the price of train ticket
from London to Paris. Sadly, the price of oversees airfare is pretty damned
high.

I know visiting different states isn't the same as visiting countries but I
think people living outside of the U.S. don't understand just how different
various U.S. regions are from each other. Really, you might say it's a bit
silly to go visiting foreign countries when you haven't even experienced all
of the diversity in your own country yet.

~~~
DirtyCalvinist
I once had a conversation with a Frenchman (in France) about how he had
berated some poor American girl (also in France) for not knowing that Zurich
was in Switzerland. I promptly quizzed him on which states 5 American cities
were in, all larger than Zurich. He failed miserably.

The United States is geographically almost as large as the whole of Europe.
The closest foreign border to me is Niagara Falls just over 400mi away, and
even if I go there, they still speak my native tongue with pretty much the
same accent. I don't think there exists any point in Germany that far from
another country.

~~~
tjoff
_I promptly quizzed him on which states 5 American cities were in, all larger
than Zurich._

Who cares about states in a foreign country? In this context the size of the
city or state is not of any interest.

~~~
sanderjd
The point is that knowing that Zurich is in Switzerland is more similar to
knowing that Denver is in Colorado than it is to knowing that Denver is in the
United States. Presumably the size of the city is interesting because the
implicit assumption is that knowing where Zurich is important because Zurich
is a big city.

~~~
tjoff
My point is that it isn't similar at all, on any level.

A typical foreigner to the US probably knows where some large cities in US are
without having the slightest clue about which state many of them reside in.

That is my perception of it.

~~~
sanderjd
...Which is why it's so similar to how a typical American probably knows where
some large cities in Europe are without having the slightest clue about which
country many of them reside in.

~~~
tjoff
I'd say that few outside of America could write that sentence.

The difference between two neighbouring countries is a huge deal and apparent
(regardless if you are a local or not) where you don't even speak the same
language, have the same currency (the euro has of course changed that a bit
(in Europe)) and for all practical purposes a complete different sets of laws
and culture.

The reason for why many cities are notable is because they are the capitals of
different countries. Their identity is based on their country. You can hardly
say the same about different states in America ( _to the same extent_ (of
course people that live in America have different accents and prejudices for
people in other states etc., but to compare that to different countries?)).

~~~
charonn0
In America I don't need to travel at all to hear many different languages,
experience different cultures, etc. They're all in walking distance in any
major city. European mono-cultures need to make nationalistic distinctions,
the American multi-culture doesn't.

~~~
barrkel
America's monoculture was actually one of my surprises. I live in London;
going to the Bay Area and seeing the monoculture was a bit of a shock. IMO
you're far more likely to hear foreign languages (foreign to the country) in
Europe than almost anywhere in the US.

~~~
cutie
SF is a bit white and hipster, like the northern half of the country. Try Los
Angeles, there are few gringos here, and fewer all the time.

~~~
charonn0
SF is far more Hispanic and East Asian than white. In any case, why so racist?

~~~
cutie
Don't confuse statement of fact with racism, a common misconception. I've
traveled over the world and liked everyone.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco#Demographics>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Los_Angeles>

~~~
charonn0
"Try Los Angeles, there are few gringos here, and fewer all the time."

I was referring to this statement. And it _is_ a racist statement. It is
exactly as racist as saying "Try Illinois, there are few wetbacks there and
fewer all the time." These are clear statements by the speaker that the group
in question is both undesirable in general and worthwhile to eliminate or
distance oneself from, a belief commonly called racism.

With regard to demographics, few of the thousands of undocumented immigrants
likely respond to government questionnaires.

~~~
cutie
The trend is cleary described in the link above. The first sentence, "The 1990
United States Census and 2000 United States Census found that non-Hispanic
whites were becoming a minority in Los Angeles."

> immigrants likely respond..

Exactly, they are quite underrepresented in the data above, reinforcing the
argument. They are in higher concentration the farther south you go.

If you are upset with the word gringo or "fewer..", it was a small attempt at
adding levity, perhaps it is a bit flippant.

Your assumptions of my mental state, however, are known psychologically as
projection.

~~~
charonn0
Perhaps you should ask yourself why you thought it would be funny, rather than
psychoanalyze a stranger on the internet.

~~~
cutie
I'm sarcastic in general, and when receiving accusations respond. Of course we
could always improve our writing in general. If you don't like your argument
critiqued, perhaps you shouldn't do it either?

------
mshron
I'd like to suggest another reason for large military expenditures that have
nothing to do with corruption. The US has the only two-ocean navy, and a very
extensive one at that. A lot of the burden of protecting shipping lanes for
members of the "global system" is covered by the States. That's really, really
expensive.

Of course, that means that countries that don't want to play by US rules
(North Korea, Iran, Cuba) get shafted, but it's still a better explanation of
the crazy military costs than either fear or corruption.

~~~
chimi
For the record, there are other multi-ocean navies: russia, south africa,
australia, canada, and argentina among them. I think that's a pretty small
factor compared to the influence of the military industrial complex.

The size of the US navy dwarfs every other country considerably, even when
factoring in oceanic boundaries.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_warships_in_service_w...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_warships_in_service_worldwide)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_bordering_on_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_bordering_on_two_or_more_oceans)

~~~
greedo
The parent post doesn't mean the same thing you mean. The USN patrols every
major seaway in the world; I sure don't see South Africa doing the same, nor
Canada, Australia, The Russian Federation, and definitely not Argentina.

~~~
chimi
If the gp meant that, then the US would have a 4 ocean navy. I'm not arguing
the size is the biggest, I'm arguing that the reason it is the biggest is not
due to coastlines on two oceans.

~~~
greedo
And the US does have a multi-ocean Navy, divided up into 6 fleets that are
assigned to certain oceans/seas. And its size is clearly due to the role it's
been assigned by the US government. In fact, reasonable arguments can be made
that the USN is too small for what it's been tasked with.

------
temphn
<http://math-www.uni-paderborn.de/~axel/us-d.html#communism>

    
    
      It is not very well known however that Germany saw a much 
      more vigilant communism hunt at about the same time. While 
      in the US only about a dozen people ever went to prison 
      for being Communists, that same number runs in the 
      thousands in Germany. The communist party was forbidden by 
      the German high court, and party members who continued 
      their activities were arrested and sent to prison.
    

Need we forget that the Stasi of the hostile East German state were right next
door?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi>

    
    
      The Stasi was headquartered in East Berlin, with an 
      extensive complex in Berlin-Lichtenberg and several 
      smaller facilities throughout the city. It was widely 
      regarded as one of the most effective and repressive 
      intelligence and secret police agencies in the world. The 
      Stasi motto was "Schild und Schwert der Partei" (Shield 
      and Sword of the Party), that is the ruling Socialist 
      Unity Party of Germany (SED). Now considered a criminal 
      organisation, several Stasi officials were prosecuted for 
      their crimes after 1990.
    

Lest we forget, the GDR was also a vassal of the nuclear-armed Soviet Union,
and the KGB was not an imaginary entity. Communism was no joke. See "The Lives
of Others" if you want to see what East Germany was like when this guy grew
up:

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/>

Incredibly, not a single mention of East Germany or the GDR in this entire
document.

~~~
zalew
yeah, reading him feels like he's been totally disconnected from reality or
managed to forget the circumstances of that era in Europe, where fighting
communism was real not just a propaganda witchhunt. hence my comment before,
many of his observations are totally out of context.

~~~
esrauch
Hm can you elaborate on that? In the US they teach that McCarthyism was an
absurd witchhunt, but it seems to me that the Soviet Union and the US were
pretty much just as much enemies as West Germany. Why is it so much different?

------
woodpanel
On charity:

 _I see two reasons for these different approaches to charity: first,
Americans distrust big organizations and third world governments; they fear
that money they donate to global causes will trickle away in bureaucracies
somewhere. Second, Germans intuitively don't feel much of a need to help local
organizations or schools: "that's the government's job, that's what I pay
taxes for."_

I think the main driver for these different approaches is that the German
state basically says "in the end we'll help you" while the US says "in the end
you're on your own".

The German approach in my opinion does more to alleviate outcast-scale
poverty. However, the quality of helping loses because:

a) those who would help mostly help people from other continents since they
think that their countrymen are well off anyway

b) those who do help, are put there to help in form of public officers

But even with a strong social-net as in Germany there are still poor people.
What happens when a)-people don't care and b)-people just follow orders is
that our poors usually never get on their own feet and out of their dependency
because their is no one telling them how to help themselves. That's what I
mean with quality of helping.

And yes, this article seems very outdated, but to me the subject would still
make a promising headline. One thing I observed is that both countries got
less different over the years: If you look at the policies regarding the
social-net, Europe has tried to become more american
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartz_concept>) while the US has tried to
become more european
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Health_Care_for_Amer...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Health_Care_for_America_Act)).

~~~
yummyfajitas
_The German approach in my opinion does more to alleviate outcast-scale
poverty._

I'd be curious how this actually plays out in practice.

In the US, we have a great document called the American Housing Survey. It
breaks down what percentage of poor people (and non-poor people) own various
goods - e.g., 75% of poor people own a car, 65% own a washing machine and 45%
own their home.

<http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf>

Do you know of a similar German document? It would provide some facts to
support/dispute your opinion.

~~~
r3m6
The key is that the basics are covered (like in most of Europe)

100% of poor people in Germany own a health insurance

0% own a house (you have to use up your own money first)

100% own a washing machine (paid for by the government)

50& own a car (my guess, but you dont really need it in big cities)

~~~
eru
That's basically true, but simplified. We also have homeless people in
Germany, who don't own a washing machine. To get the government welfare, you
have to navigate some bureaucracy: it's not hard, but there are still people
who can't or don't want to do that.

About the house: If your house is cheap enough, I am not sure whether you have
to use it all up completely. (I heard that there's even the possibility under
certain circumstances of the government helping you with mortgage payments
instead of helping you pay for rent.)

In general, you can live of the government welfare and even raise kids. But
you need some skills for that, and they aren't that different from the skills
that make for basic employability.

------
zalew
Some stuff from what he describes and I know about is either wrong, too
subjective, lacks context or very outdated; so I'd rather take it with a grain
of salt.

------
Tooluka
Before and during reading I was pretty sure that it is a little biased for one
of the countries. The end effect was completely reverse - I can't really
choose one country as better right now. So I'd call this article a success.

Jelly donuts rant was a nice touch in the end :) .

------
gyardley
Good article, but it always bothers me a bit when people talk about Americans
generically.

Yes, you can make some generalizations, but the country is huge and there are
many distinct cultural zones. Attitudes and behavior vary widely between them.

~~~
Argorak
Germany also has a diverse culture, especially because it wasn't a unified
state until the end of the 19th century. So the generalization is on both
sides.

~~~
anamax
> Germany also has a diverse culture

Compared to what?

Compared to Madison Wisconsin, maybe, compared to all of Wisconsin, probably
not, compared to Texas or CA, not a chance. Heck, South San Jose is more
diverse.

~~~
Argorak
I din't compare anything.

Also, it looks a lot like you never travelled through Germany from north to
south. Every piece of Germany has different traditions, dialects and food. I
am from a place where I cannot understand people from the next village. Also,
all those parts are pretty vocal: I think Germany is the only country that has
developed regional Wikipedias (at least Bavaria, Palatinate and Northern
Germany).

~~~
fhars
Pennsylvania has one, too: <http://pdc.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsilfaani>

~~~
Argorak
Funny. Its a german dialect :). Good catch, thank you!

------
activepeanut

      Americans living abroad are not even allowed to give up
      citizenship to avoid paying U.S. taxes.
    

That's wrong, along with many other facts in this article.

~~~
randallsquared
It depends on what "allowed" means. The penalty for doing so exceeds that for
many minor crimes:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriation_tax#United_States>

~~~
vacri
Was expatriation a serious problem for the US? It seems a bit of a severe step
to take for someone who is already wealthy.

Not to mention it raises the question - if someone renounces their
citizenship, what right does the country have to tax them? Doesn't tax come
with the right of representation?

------
subpixel
I've lived in Germany for 5+ years and believe humor to be one of the widest
cultural gaps between Germany and the US.

To wit: [http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/02/what-makes-
germ...](http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/02/what-makes-germans-
laugh-not-30-rock/)

~~~
gegenschall
Disclaimer: I am German and I actually saw and liked 30 Rock (in English) ;-)
As for 30 Rock: The problem with English shows on German television is that
they are all dubbed. I won't say that they are doing a bad job (c.f. eastern
european countries) but sometimes they are missing out puns and jokes which
"can't be translated" without losing meaning. In the end this can make a funny
TV show unwatchable. On the other hand you will never (as in never ever) see
an undubbed show on German television. People are used to watch it in German,
so most of them might just never watch it again in either language.

edit: s/Disclaimer/FYI/

~~~
rustynails
I'm from OZ, and to be honest, I need the canned laughter when watching US
comedy - because the humor is not obvious (eg. Will and Grace- canned laughter
when a dog walks across the screen ... Ahh, Americans find that funny... Ok)
Now British humor? I get that without canned laughter.

~~~
xtracto
I always thought that the "humor" in those American sitcoms was that the
thought that they found such events funny.

------
luisfer
I hate to sound trivial and to deviate from the conversation, but I would like
to draw attention to Finland for a moment and say that the US government
should follow suit (for the most part I agree that people in the US have
learned to tolerate substandard quality when it comes to many technology
services). In Finland, legislation dictates that it is the right of every
citizen to have free access to at least a 1Mbps internet connection and by
2015 every household will have a 100Mbps connection. Food for thought: Perhaps
if the US followed suit other mobile, banking (and network-reliant fields)
would evolve accordingly?

~~~
zxcdw
But who'd pay for it? We Finns are more than used to paying taxes for
everything we do. Even candies(and other sweets, such as soft drinks) have
additional taxing.

It's just a matter of different welfare system(if you could say so, it applies
well to the cultural differences between European countries - might be a bit
of a stretch to compare it to the States... :))

------
sciurus
If you like this, you may be interested in these comparisons of the US and
Germany.

[http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-
world/2011/united...](http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-
world/2011/united-states)

[http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-
world/2011/german...](http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-
world/2011/germany)

<http://www.heritage.org/index/country/unitedstates>

<http://www.heritage.org/index/country/germany>

------
yaix
Bluetooth headset? Microwaved food debate?

Parts of the text seem to be ten or more years old, while other parts have
been updated.

Still, a good read.

------
sfall
Seems interesting but with a notable number of mistakes on the US, how much
can I trust what is said about Germany? and how much has changed since he
moved to the US?

~~~
maebert
Mistakes yes, but I think he got most of the core motifs right (on both the US
and German side (I grew up in the latter)). With which points (concerning the
US) to you disagree / which points to you find questionable (BRD)?

~~~
sfall
Well writing about high speed trains or lack there of, we have one of the best
freight systems in the world, but it makes high speed rail difficult, Europe
has gone the other way they have high speed rail focus

ref: <http://www.economist.com/node/16636101>

and this is only one point.

------
hexagonal
The section on American internet access is pretty old. (ISDN?)

~~~
SeanLuke
Apparently all cell phones in the US are analog too.

~~~
brazzy
That's probably a misunderstanding based on most US carriers using CDMA rather
than GSM (like most of the rest of the world).

~~~
SeanLuke
If by "most" you mean "Verizon and Sprint" versus "AT&T and T-Mobile", that's
a curious definition of "most".

------
pureyang
One of the areas where Germany has and always will be different from the US is
in their motoring culture.

Drivers license Cost

15 $

1400 EU

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4itwh8C4kn8>

National Max Highway speed

US 65

GERMANY none*

*I know, its not everywhere or all the time, but go once, and its pure bliss, cruising around ~100mph just feels right. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_autobahns#Speed_limits>

~~~
brazzy
Don't forget minimum age to get a license: 16 vs. 18, and possibly related,
minimum drinking age 21 vs. 16...

------
sch1zo
just glanced though it but most of the stuff regarding Germany is pretty
outdated

~~~
maebert
Then again, others are not (e.g. he references the abolishment of compulsory
military service in 2011). I think the article is still under constant
editing, it's just not possible to catch up with everything at once.

~~~
sdoering
This might be true. But a lot of info is clearly biased toward a negative
image on Germany, when it comes to the outdated information.

So for example regarding privacy and data that is kept by you ISP - nothing on
recent developement to abolish the 6-month periode in germany, as well as
nothing on the recent developement in the US.

Just an example, but a lot of this comparison makes Germany look worse than it
actually is.

disclaimer: I am from Germany and I really do not like a lot of things, that
do go totally wrong here (imho).

------
Indyan
"Many extension cords still come without a third hole for grounding in the US.
When you plug things into electrical outlets, you'll often observe cute little
sparks. That never happens in Germany."

So in Germany there is no concept of grounding? Why? Also, is there any
scientific explanation behind no sparking in Gemany?

~~~
vacri
I think you have it backwards - he's saying that all German extension cords
have a third pin for ground.

~~~
Indyan
Oh yeah..I got it wrong. So, US doesn't have the concept of grounding?
Surprising, but I suppose that does explain the sparks.

~~~
vonmoltke
No, it doesn't. The grounding wire is an equipment ground. It connects to
metal cases and other points inside the device that require an earth ground,
and not all devices actually require an earth ground. Electrically, though, it
does nothing for the cord itself or the outlet.

The sparks are caused by the physical design of the plug and outlet,
specifically that US outlets are designed in such a way that you can actually
see them. Any mechanical connection between two conductors (outlets, switches,
etc.) has the potential to spark if the voltage between them is high enough.
Other conductors have nothing to do with this potential.

------
gbog
Read half of it. 70% applies to France vs US as well.

------
dahotre
Try explaining the conservatives that NYT is the best news paper in the US.

------
tubbo
"What are they afraid of?"

Have you not been paying attention in the last 50 years? We've made a hell of
a lot of enemies, and before that it was communism, and before that it was
world wars. Our military is strong because if it wasn't we would be getting
attacked constantly. I'm pretty sure that a major reason why there haven't
been any substantial terrorist attacks on the US since 9/11 is because our
military will FUCK UP ENTIRE COUNTRIES if that happens again. Shit, we got
launched into a 6-year war with 2 countries after an independent terrorist
group blew up our building. If the KKK went to another country and bombed a
building, would that country then attack and occupy us? Absolutely not!
Because they can't.

~~~
ucee054
> Our military is strong because if it wasn't we would be

> getting attacked constantly

Which is why Sweden, Cabo Verde, Malaysia and Trinidad are getting attacked
constantly.

Or maybe the USA gets attacked because it routinely decides to "FUCK UP ENTIRE
COUNTRIES" ?

Or even better, why not leave your foreign policy ideology out of a thread
about a _cultural/sociological_ article?

I was enjoying it until you ruined it

------
dccnl
German history and resulting 'cough' freedom gets in the way here. Why not
compare USA to Sweden, Holland of France :D

~~~
sdoering
Maybe, because he is German, lived here a long time and moved to the US?
Maybe, because he has no direct knowledge of Sweden?

Your voice and words, dear gentleman, make you a troll.

------
tweiss
tl;dr but I guess his point is that if you're a kickass German scientist, you
don't have to use CSS and make your posts more readable. <3 the attitude!

~~~
gcp
The post contains proper HTML markup. Why would he need to add CSS given that
it's just a plain article? It should render perfectly - and in fact it's much
more readable than many websites here.

------
wahsd
What a bunch of lazy, biased nonsense. There is absolutely nothing of value in
that accumulation of words. I am neither for or against either the USA or
Germany, but I am for unbiased and accurate assessment.

