
Ask HN: I joined a big co, like the team, hate some policies, what should I do? - throwaway173205
I recently joined a big tech company.  The work is interesting and the team seems skilled and well run.  But the larger company has done some really sketchy things where they mislead users in the name of growth.  They also have policies that help entrench it beyond what is fair.  They are in an industry where the leader has a big natural advantage, and they are in that lead by a large margin.  They&#x27;d seem like they&#x27;d rather win a dirty fight than lose a fair one.  Most days I feel a combination of frustration and shame working for them because of this.  It seems that the policies follow from the leadership and company culture, and they have been doing similar things for awhile.<p>I am not sure what I should do.
======
downandout
_> But the larger company has done some really sketchy things where they
mislead users in the name of growth. They also have policies that help
entrench it beyond what is fair._

This could be the story of literally any large tech company today. Airbnb got
its start by spamming people offering vacation homes for rent on Craigslist
[1]. According to _The Facebook Effect_ [2], Facebook was almost entirely
dependent on its contact importer/spammer for its growth in its early days. On
days when Hotmail blocked them for spamming, new user sign ups dropped by 80%;
it was only after they cut a deal with Microsoft that included an agreement to
not spam-box their emails that they continued to grow.

When you look behind the curtain of successful modern startups, virtually all
of them were built on mountains of spam and bad/unethical/illegal behavior,
which they then publicly decry and block on their own platforms after they
become influential enough to do so. If you have issues with this, Silicon
Valley probably isn't the place for you. There are plenty of tech jobs in
other areas - but look away from startups, because most are employing/willing
to employ extremely aggressive techniques to win.

[1] [http://davegooden.com/2011/05/how-airbnb-became-a-billion-
do...](http://davegooden.com/2011/05/how-airbnb-became-a-billion-dollar-
company/)

[2]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Facebook_Effect](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Facebook_Effect)

~~~
millamox
> virtually all of them were built on mountains of spam and
> bad/unethical/illegal behavior,

This simply isn't true. There are a few who did that, but they're the
exception, not the rule.

Shady unicorns: Uber (too many to count), AirBNB (spam), DropBox (lied about
encryption/security), The Honest Co (lied about product quality)

Not Shady unicorns: Xiaomi, Palantir, Snapchat, SpaceX, Pinterest, Spotify,
DJI, Intarcia, Stripe, Vice, CreditKarma, CloudFlare, BloomEnergy, Fanatics,
Slack, Blue Apron, GitHub, Domo, SurveyMonkey, BlaBlaCar, Lyft, MongoDB,
Buzzfeed, Cloudera, Automatic, EventBrite, Evernote, Warby Parker, Docker...

The narrative that "everybody cheats" is just something that cheaters tell
themselves, so they can pretend that their behavior was warranted.

That said, it's worth discussing these things before applying to a company,
because dishonesty creates massive risk in the company, so if you hear and
answer that sounds like 'downandout's, you need to devalue that company,
because their lack of ethics creates risk for that particular company, and it
creates reputational risk for you.

~~~
downandout
First, I don't think anyone that read my comment would objectively say that I
was endorsing such behavior, as you seem to imply in your comment (for the
record, I wasn't). Second...you're honestly saying that CreditKarma, Buzzfeed,
and Vice didn't grow through spamming? CreditKarma (and everyone else in the
free credit space) contracts with affiliate networks to drive new customers,
whose affiliates do every shady thing imaginable (and then some) to get
commissions. "Free credit" offers thrive in these networks - they occupy the
top spots in the best performing offers lists because they pay $20+ to
affiliates for each "free" signup - and they are primarily promoted through
fake job offers on Craigslist and other job boards. Affiliates tell people
they're hired for XYZ job - they just need to complete a credit check by going
to <insert affiliate link here>. CreditKarma probably isn't directly doing
this, but they know full well that their affiliates are.

Buzzfeed spams the crap out of Facebook. Eventbrite & Vice had some spamming
issues in the beginning as well. I'm not sure about Snapchat's growth story -
they may have been a rare example of natural growth, along with Google. Most
of the rest of those you're talking about aren't really the kinds of pure
internet plays that are relevant to this discussion. No amount of spamming
would have made Xiaomi, Palantir, SpaceX, DJI, etc any more successful, so
they didn't employ these techniques.

~~~
millamox
You made an "edgy" but incorrect generalization based on sparse anecdata. It
was good for your comment karma, but it's silly to stand by it.

AirBNB's CAN-SPAM violating email was clearly unethical. A media company
showing up on Facebook more than you would prefer is, at worst, mildly
annoying. There's an important difference.

Ethical people do not need to leave Silicon Valley. Dishonesty is not
prerequisite to success. Your claims are wrong.

~~~
downandout
_> Ethical people do not need to leave Silicon Valley. Dishonesty is not
prerequisite to success. Your claims are wrong._

Again, you're implying things that I simply didn't say.

 _> A media company showing up on Facebook more than you would prefer is, at
worst, mildly annoying_

You're right, that's not spam, but that's not what I was referring to either.
I'm not going to write a massive explanation here of the specific Facebook
spamming techniques employed by Buzzfeed et al, but suffice it to say that
they are actively and aggressively spamming to "prime the viral pump" with
certain stories.

------
ActsJuvenile
NO MATTER WHAT you must not say anything and maintain a smiling facade, while
letting the hatred smolder inside your dark heart. Make trivial yet self-
reinforcing observations around the office that feed your echo-chamber of a
mind. After work down a quart of whiskey to soothe broken dreams, while
watching HBO shows depicting glamorous life that you will never have. Extra
bonus if you lash out at people who love and care for you.

In 5 years all this will feel natural to you like the rest of us, and your
stock options would have fully vested by then.

~~~
jsmith0295
Well at least I'm not the only one.

------
codingdave
No matter what the company size, you will find that the culture and the
actions taken by the organization follow the leaders. This is rarely something
you can fight... you need to make a personal decision of either accepting the
areas in which you disagree, or leaving the job.

Personally, I find ethical problems are the kind that would make me leave.
Business disagreements and technical differences are one thing... but I can't
support something if it directly conflicts with my personal ethics.

So if I were in your shoes, I'd frame the question in exactly that way - is
this just a disagreement in style for you, or an ethical conflict?

~~~
monk_e_boy
As OP says, fighting fairly would probably end the company resulting in no
job.

This tends to be my experience, nice people find it very hard to start and run
successful companies. The sort of person who feels guilty for making a good
profit is at a disadvantage to the person who feels delight at taking as much
money as possible.

[edit] I keep getting down votes for stating my experience and opinion. I have
no idea how the voting system on HN works. Should I avoid personal anecdotes?

~~~
gedrap
I don't think it's a binary thing where you are either playing totally fairly
or completely unethically.

Most of the businesses have to make tough decisions to survive, not all of
them are fair (to users, employees, etc). However, the difference is in
attitude about such decisions and frequency of them.

>> The sort of person who feels guilty for making a good profit is at a
disadvantage to the person who feels delight at taking as much money as
possible.

Making as much money as possible is just a goal that some people set and do
everything possible to achieve that. It's no different than any other goal.
You don't need to absolutely maximize the monetary output of your life in
order to be happy.

~~~
monk_e_boy
>> ou don't need to absolutely maximize the monetary output of your life in
order to be happy.

For me personally I totally agree. I have switched careers and taken a big cut
in wages to give me more time with my family.

I have to assume that a middle of the ground company exists, but again, in my
experience I have not worked for one. Some have been cottage industries happy
clappy the world is kind and karma is real and others who think the customer
is a chump and we can screw them out of as much money as possible.

~~~
joshyeager
Companies like that definitely exist. I work for one: we make a great product,
work hard to make our customers successful, and charge enough to make our
business successful as well.

I don't know of a universal rule for finding companies like that. But you can
definitely recognize them when you see them in action.

------
dferr
OP, my personal recommendation is to run for the hills. if you have the money,
quit now and do a thorough job search. I recently took that bold step and I'm
glad i did.

I can't recommend this enough. find a job you really do have the best of both
worlds, and stop settling for advantage/disadvantage positions.

I worked with an awesome team, but the company was sketchy, and something
tells me you're in the same industry i was... E-commerce. The team was
awesome, and i still have real friends there because of it. but the management
and business ethics were terrible, not to mention that non-technical folks
were making technical decisions that overrode us. the hard part of leaving is
that i felt trapped, that if i left, i'd be unprepared for the positions i
wanted. but thankfully i was wrong.

i decided that i'd really take the time to interview companies as much, if not
more than they interviewed me. asking questions i had come up with that would
spot companies like this. I even cut a few interviews short because of these
questions, but it helped me clarify what i wanted, and where i would be happy.

to measure out my results:

    
    
      * was already well paid, new job paid 40%-60% more(range for discretion)
      * new company actually cares about code quality, testing etc. 
      * mgmt leaves tech decisions to us.
      * better, more flexible hours.
      * smarter people than myself, things to learn, and people to learn from.(education wasn't big at my last position)
      * a bit more stressful, in a good way. I feel like i have more responsibility, and that i truly own what i do.
      * path for career growth. i can see where my next steps lead me
    

yes some of these are subjective, but thats the point. these are the things i
wanted. you might have different needs, but i'm confident that this approach
will make you happier, more in love with your career, and less jaded like i
was.

Best of luck OP.

~~~
SeaDude
"Run for the hills"... unless they pay well.

I'm not sure where you all play, but I play in big Corp, with my own ethics
and make a strong impact. You don't have to tow the line, sale ially if you
kick ass.

If you do indeed have values / ethics that STAND OUT (as opposed to just
expressed on forums / on your sleeve) and you're a solid PRODUCER, nothing
else matters. Go get it man!

My experience (15 yrz in big Corp operations and now IT) is that your ethics /
values "get out" on their own and make a deep impact; IF you're skilled at
what you do.

~~~
dmoy
What does the phrase "sale ially" mean?

~~~
Gigablah
I'm guessing autocorrect for "especially", with the "c" fat-fingered to a
space.

~~~
dmoy
Ah gotcha thanks, I didn't make that leap.

------
saalweachter
If you are on the fence enough to ask here, don't quit immediately and instead
just start interviewing elsewhere now. Once you have some solid offers lined
up, you can make a more informed decision.

In general a large corporation is -- surprise surprise -- going to be made up
of a lot of people. Some of them are going to be really passionate about doing
the right thing, some of them will be happy to do what it takes to get ahead,
and a lot of them are just going to want to do their job, get paid, and not
worry too hard about the bigger picture. It can feel bad to be at the big evil
and feel like you're being corrupted by being a part of it, but you always
have the option to do what you think is right. You can stay there, work hard,
and push back against the culture and attitudes you think improper. Maybe
you'll make a difference. Maybe you'll give up. Maybe you'll try hard but no
one will listen, and meanwhile your hard work will benefit the wrong people.
Maybe you'll get fired after people get tired of you telling them how bad they
are or after you refuse to do something that crosses the line.

~~~
st553
>Once you have some solid offers lined up

Does this actually work for people? My experience interviewing for software
engineering roles is that it's a time consuming and tedious process. I can't
imagine juggling a full time job while interviewing with more than one company
at a time.

~~~
saalweachter
My one experience doing it has only involved one job change/interview/offer,
so I'm not sure what the typical experience is.

After I grew dissatisfied with my first job out of college, partially because
I'd just been there five years and wanted to try something else, partially for
ethical reasons (the new owners were hosting fundraisers for Jenny McCarthy),
I sent resumes to three companies, got a callback from one, did a phone
screen, took a day off work for the interview, and then got the offer a few
weeks later. Gave three weeks notice, took a month off, was at a new job about
three months after I first decided to leave the old.

~~~
stevenwiles
> Gave three weeks notice, took a month off

This is absolutely not a typical experience. In most cases, software companies
are very hesitant to give you more than 3 weeks.

------
fencepost
Bear in mind that at almost(?) every large company out there the mission
statement (written or not) is really

"Our Mission is to make money for our investors and the executives who were
able to negotiate their own contracts and who control how we do business. We
make money primarily by (selling products|providing services|entertaining
people). Where we can do so without impacting our fiduciary responsibilities,
we may attempt to do the 'right' thing - particularly in situations where we
can get positive press or customer relations out of it - but that's a
preference not a responsibility and may be considered part of our marketing
budget."

This may seem cynical, but it's basically the way it has to be at any
publicly-held company and most privately-held companies that get VC funding.
If you tell investors "We're going to put social responsibility/open source
ahead of repaying your investment or providing you with profits," good luck
finding investors. Entities that put social responsibility, etc. higher are
generally called non-profit, not-for-profit, foundation, etc. and I'm not
aware of any that could be described as "a big tech company."

~~~
SeaDude
Bingo!!

------
ereyes01
To paraphrase Mark Suster from his Both Sides of the Table blog, are you ready
to learn or earn?

If you're early in your career, and you are benefiting from working on hard
engineering problems with a competent team, then I would advise you to try to
enjoy the ride and then switch jobs once you think you've learned all you can
from your team.

As others have already explained, businesses are very frequently amoral and
short-term-profit-driven. I went through my jaded-at-the-world phase, and by
now I've mostly made my peace with that aspect of capitalism. I've learned
that the world is often more complex than I had imagined. Sometimes, companies
have to claw their way to survival through questionable means, but may still
have a net positive effect on the world after enough time. And sometimes
not...

If this isn't your first, or even third rodeo, and you're ready to earn
instead of learn (c.f. Mark Suster) then life is too short to be unhappy with
where you work. Use your skills to build something your care about in a
company you respect. My $0.02

------
whack
1) Are they asking you to directly get involved in the sketchy/misleading
things that they are doing?

If yes, I think you should flat out refuse to do it, and start looking for
another job asap.

2) Are their competitors playing fair?

Moral purists may disagree with this, but if the people being hurt by your
dirty tactics, are themselves fighting dirty, I think it's fair game. There's
no reason why the weaker side should handicap itself against a stronger
opponent who's fighting dirty.

3) Can you do more good than harm, from the inside?

One way is by repeatedly raising this issue for broader discussion, when
opportunities arise, and shaming people into more ethical behavior. Another
way is by being a whistleblower. Edward Snowden did a lot more to champion
privacy by working for the NSA and then being a whistleblower, than by
refusing to work for the NSA at all.

\----

If none of the above give you sufficient grounds to stay, then look for other
companies to join in the medium term. There's no reason to rush and quit,
without getting another good job lined up. And in the meantime, as a new hire,
you're not really an important part of the company anyway, so you don't need
to feel guilty about "enabling" anything. During your exit interview, if they
ask you why you're leaving, consider telling them honestly that you don't feel
comfortable working for a company that misleads its users. This just might be
the most impactful thing you can do, in terms of persuading the company to
change its ways.

Lastly, kudos to you for making ethical behavior a priority.

------
greenspot
Slightly OT: For a decade, software engineers have been facing such a huge
demand for their profession that their perception of a 'job' got a bit
distorted.

For most of them and those who chose popular stacks it's usually quite easy to
get a job. Or any job. This gives them superpowers and enables them to ask for
a lot--high salaries, tons of perks, free food, freedom and maybe a company
with the right vision, leadership and policies.

But what they forget in all this abudance of options is that a job _is_ a job.
You can call it career, give it exciting titles and enrich it with stock
options, _it stays a job_. You can work at Google, at a fancy office, with
super smart coworkers and free a-la-carte-food everyday but it is still _just
a job_ and you are not free. And even Google has its dark sides the employees
accept. Let's not start to talk about Facebook, Microsoft or Apple.

Maybe one company has shady growth tacticts (btw which successful company
doesn't have them? Even Google abused all their properties to push Chrome),
the next one lacks free food or uses an aged stack. Remember it's always a
_job_. And if one doesn't like it, he might try to find a better option but
shouldn't be suprised about new drawbacks. Or he could try to start his own
company. A perfect one where everything is perfect for everyone. Then one will
realize that many things are more complicated than they seem.

There's no perfect job.

~~~
eyan
I think this is not OT at all. This is the answer to most job related should-
i-stay-or-should-i-go or what-should-i-do questions.

It. Is. A. Job.

If you can't accept that you're in a job and the feeling of entitlement shines
thru, that would just be whining in my book. And yes, HN, lots of that in
here.

~~~
SFJulie
We have a job to live, we don't live for work.

I recently changed career to become whatever I found honest just in case it
would make my life different.

Well, being a human beings seems to come with a handicap we almost all have
moral compass. And most of my job in IT have been in the dark side of my
compass recently.

Right now, I maybe risking my body moving heavy loads with poor equipment and
security, commercial making occasional mistakes forces us to do 12h continuous
loading of trucks else the company bankrupts and none of us are paid BUT from
my perspective it is a great improvement.

Customers are sometimes saying thanks. Coworkers are sometimes saying thanks,
and boss too. We are working as a team and when everybody does his/her job
correctly we have satisfactions.

A satisfaction I was missing.

And when the day is over, the job is not in my head anymore.

I can once again live a normal life, we don't scam customers, we don't break
their goods, we are the most honest we can giving the stupidity of some
regulations and of some dishonest customers.

And fuck, being able to feel proud again is worthy the quasi state of misery I
live in.

Sometimes, money does not matter as much as feeling you are not wasting your
life doing something that makes you something you will come to despise.

Feeling an honest human again worth every single $ and all my savings I lost
in the conversion.

------
chatmasta
Suck it up or quit. You're not going to change what sounds like the _central
strategy_ of the company. And if you complain about it, your superiors may
very well see you as weak and unwilling to do what it takes to win. So either
keep quiet, work hard and get paid, or leave. If you're really that concerned,
blow the whistle on your way out. But don't expect to get hired again after
doing that.

~~~
Razengan
Can't OP, and others in his situation, blow the whistle anonymously?

------
elgabogringo
If there is something that is actually unethical going on, then you should
consider leaving, but you need to be more specific on what those things
actually are. "beyond what is fair" and "really sketchy" are pretty
subjective. It's fair to say a company's culture is too competitive, but it's
not clear this is the case since you feel the company is well run.

If you and other coworkers are treated fairly, then you are probably being a
bit too sensitive / idealistic. Relax and view it as a challenge: learning how
to deal with people that you view as too aggressive/competitive. It will serve
you well in life.

Again, given the lack of detail that's my best advice... Note that I've worked
at a company that stole code and got sued, so I have some experience in
unethical companies and leadership.

~~~
gedrap
>>> Relax and view it as a challenge: learning how to deal with people that
you view as too aggressive/competitive.

You make a very good point here!

Every company has issues and decisions that you don't agree with for variety
of reasons. So looking for some perfect company will make your life much
harder than it should be.

It's just that you have to draw a line what's acceptable and what is not.

Having experience in industry (or just general professional experience) can
help a lot because it allows you to compare the issues and set the line. I
know that because I was wayyy too idealistic and naive at my first full time
job :)

------
gedrap
Well, looks like you are not in a position to change these policies.
Therefore, if you regularly feel "a combination of frustration and shame
working for them" rather than just a short period of negativeness / sadness
that goes away quickly, it's not likely that it will get any better later and
quite possibly worse. So quitting seems like the only option, doesn't it?

I'd just add that regardless of your decision, try to take a step back and see
if you could have spotted these issues earlier, before joining so that you'd
be less likely to repeat this mistake in the future. Maybe there were some red
flags that you missed or downplayed?

------
bdcravens
Be the change you want to see. Do your job in the most ethical manner possible
and articulate your thoughts on _your job_ , not necessarily _the company_ ,
and perhaps it will spread. Counter-culture can be as effective as revolution.
If the company doesn't change, you did what you were asked by your company
(your job) and what was asked by your ethos.

~~~
djKianoosh
indeed, this is a path that is less frequently travelled. some people are
wired in a way that they like fixing things from the inside. it takes a ton of
emotional and psychological strength/aptitude though, so not everyone enjoys
this approach.

a good book that addresses some of this is Driving Technical Change. some
people you will never change, and those you can ignore. if there are enough
people that you can influence you have a chance to make a difference. as long
as you're strong enough to not let the negativity bring you down, this all can
be a rewarding path...

------
djcapelis
Leave.

It's that simple. Don't work for a company that isn't ethical. It doesn't
matter if your team is great if you still have to get up and help do something
unethical.

Also, be real. There are many great teams in the world, your current one is
not the only one, find one at a company doing worthwhile things.

~~~
SeaDude
Don't pay your rent, forget your kids, live in a fuggin dream world... "it's
that simple".

Come on bro. Unless you are in some rare Netherlands / Amazonian fair trade,
employee owned, tech company who pays in angel farts, you live in a
capitalistic economy.

YOU determine your own credo, your own ethics, your own constitution. Live it
inside the Corp. Make that money and be a good person.

And while your at it, look up the etymology of "corporation". It's absurd to
think man could "give life to a corpse in order to make money" after running
that mandate through everyone's "ethics filter" first.

Ethics and values are driven by the humans not the Corp.

~~~
mplewis
Dude, he's in tech. He can fall out of a tree and get a job before he hits the
ground.

Finding another job with ethical practices isn't hard.

------
nilram
You can't steer that boat from the galley. I don't think there's any long-term
harm in jumping ship after a brief engagement as long as that doesn't become a
pattern on your CV. Depending on the length of time there, especially if it's
a job right out of college, you could even just not put it on.

------
erehweb
Consider seeing a trained counselor to talk through this.

I am not a trained counselor, but:

It doesn't really matter if the policies are legal or ethical. If you feel
ashamed of your work most days, that's not a good situation, and you should
probably look around for another job.

You should also consider that "behind every great fortune there lies a great
crime". Pretty sure there is some work you can do which you would not be
ashamed by, but it may take some extra effort / screening to find it.

------
justapassenger
How sketchy? Every single company I worked at did things that can be
considered questionable just to grow. There's no fair fight in industry - good
guys lose and get forgotten.

But there's of course a limit to that, and once illegal things start to happen
- quit. But if that's a "regular shady" stuff everyone does, you may have
problems finding company that won't do it (well, you can find companies that
are much subtle internally about it, and you won't know what they do).

------
dang
This submission originally got hit by a spam filter and then was rescued by a
user who vouched for it. We rolled back the clock on the post when we saw it,
but I suppose it may take a while for the OP to realize that they ended up
with an active thread.

------
ThomPete
You should probably quit.

Before you do though, ask yourself if these "bad" actions are due to the fact
that it's a large organization and these kind of things will always happen
there or if it's actually ill intent.

Since I don't know which category (as I don't know the details) I would guess
it's really just a question of the former rather the latter.

Size alone will make you rub some people the wrong way, make mistakes that
have consequences and so on. Even a company like google who had the whole
"don't be evil" had to change that because they learned that being evil really
isn't something you necessarily want to be but in the views of others your
actions might be interpreted like that.

Personally I am of the view that most organization even the really large ones
are mostly good but will purely from their size make bad decisions here and
there. You cannot not have that because size is power and power demands
sacrifice.

------
ktRolster
_has done some really sketchy things where they mislead users in the name of
growth_

A company that rips off its users will eventually rip you off.

Note though, that if the users are sophisticated enough that they should be
able to read and understand a contract, and your company is following their
contracts, then they are not ripping anybody off.

------
ktRolster
_I am not sure what I should do._

Start interviewing and looking for another job. When you find a better one,
quit.

------
RKoutnik
It sounds like these issues are pretty big for you and not so much for your
team. If I were in your shoes, I'd be worried that staying would impact my
moral compass and I'd start thinking such things were ok. If you've joined
pretty recently, no one will look down on you for moving on after discovering
that they're misleading customers. I was in a similar situation myself and
decided to stick it out, which was a big mistake.

I'd be happy to have a chat and see if there's a space for you somewhere in my
network. Life's too short to do morally-dubious work. Contact info's in my
profile.

------
michael_storm
Quit, if you can. Those policies will not change. There's a good reason why
that company plays dirty (winning), and the executives are not interested in
hearing your thoughts on the matter. Nobody else is, either -- which is why
they still work there -- so good luck "banding together".

(Unless you're a relatively high-level being with some political cachet,
which, given you're new and having asked this question in the first place,
you're probably not.)

I worked for a similar company right out of college, when I was young(-er) and
naive(r). Those 18 months barking up an amoral tree would be handy to have
back.

------
quadrature
That frustration and shame are going to affect your productivity sooner or
later which in turn affects your future job prospects. Compartmentalization
can work for some people, but it sounds like you have a real ethical boundary
here. Our industry generally has a great deal of mobility, there are
definitely great companies out there which require your skill set and have a
great company culture, you don't have to settle for less.

Also don't trivialize the psychological impact that this can have on you,
especially if you find yourself thinking about this off work hours.

------
InclinedPlane
At the end of the day there's no such thing as a perfect place to work, even
in regards to ethics of the company. You need to spend time seriously thinking
about the company's behavior and your own personal values (and also judging
the company's behavior fairly and not necessarily too harshly, no individual
person is perfect and company's are imperfect as well), questioning why you
feel a certain way, whether it's justified, and how much it's justified. And
then you need to make a decision on your own, keeping in mind that you do have
the freedom to choose where to work. And also remembering that the work you do
is much more valuable than the compensation you receive, so when you work for
a company you are making a very serious and very significant contribution to
them, you're supporting them, and by extension you are supporting what they
do. If you feel that your employer is acting in a way that you cannot support,
then you need to go somewhere else.

It's very easy to see ourselves as swept along by the tide of history, moved
by bigger forces all around us. But we are those forces. Every action we take
every day is like a drop in the ocean of history, and maybe sometimes our
drops end up adding together to make something great, or maybe they make
something that is hurtful. Whether or not we can individually turn back a tide
that might be perpetuating or creating hurt or evil we can decide whether or
not to contribute to it ourselves, and that makes a difference to our lives
and incrementally to the world at large as well.

------
jacquesm
You should have thought twice before joining Facebook.

------
ChuckMcM
"People are what they eat, companies are the people they hire." \-- Anonymous

There are a lot of good comments here, enough to get you to an answer I think.
Personal integrity comes at a cost, and you describe a situation where your
personal integrity is in conflict with the company's policies. It is true you
should always be looking for a new job, thinking about what you want to do
next what you like in a company what you dislike. One of the reasons for
leaving is that the company's ethics and yours are too far out of alignment.

Here is the really tricky bit. Companies that are unethical get a reputation
for that, the longer you stay at that company the more someone will believe
that you're ok with that stance.

So three things;

1) Lead by example, speak out about unethical behavior to your peers and make
your own choices in line with your values.

2) Look around for a company that is more aligned with your values, that is
much easier to do while employed though.

3) Develop some questions you will use when you interview to understand how
leadership treats those questions. Things like "Tell me about a time when your
management suggested something against the best interests of the
customers/users, and the response to it from your organization."

Good luck.

~~~
HillaryBriss
interesting comparison, people::food <\--> companies::people

in some companies I've worked for it's quite accurate

------
staticautomatic
Vote with your feet. If you can get hired there, surely you have other
options.

------
andyidsinga
one way to help frame the question to yourself is: is the company "enron evil"
or "apple/google/microsoft evil" and evaluate where your personal tolerance
might be on that spectrum. (obviously enron evil is an extreme).

also, do other people on your team feel similarly and therefore would likely
leave in the next year or so?

for me, of the answer was closer to enron evil, and the team likely won't be
around in a year I would probably be looking to move on.

alternative method : do you go home and agonize about it and vent to your
close friends / partner constantly about the issues you struggle with? if si,
might be a good indicator to get out. I once had a job like that and when I
left my wife couldn't belive the difference in my after-work anxiety levels
(which surprised me!); that's when I really knew I did the right thing.

~~~
xiaoma

                          _

~~~
MichaelGG
Didn't they collude to suppress salaries? They also made non-general-purpose
computing mainstream and acceptable.

------
skybrian
Are there legal issues for the company? If so it seems like you should be
talking to the company's lawyers about what to do. Certainly don't put
anything in writing because you might have to testify about it in court one
day.

If there are possible legal issues for you, then you need to get your own
lawyer, because the company's lawyers aren't your lawyers.

Putting that aside, if you want to make a change to a management decision then
you'll have to be making a presentation to management that's heavy on facts
(evidence of risks and bad consequences) rather than about how it makes you
feel. Since you're looking to change the status quo, the burden of proof is
going to be on you and your allies (if you have any).

If that actually succeeds then it's evidence of strong leadership. But in the
more likely case, it's time to look elsewhere.

~~~
dkarapetyan
Don't do this. Company lawyers are there to protect the company. This is the
fastest way to get into trouble. If you are going to seek legal advice then
make sure it is as far away from the company as possible.

~~~
skybrian
I think I made that distinction. If you're talking to the company's lawyers
it's because it's not personal - you're just trying to help the company.

~~~
dkarapetyan
Even when you make a distinction to help the company. It only works if the
whistleblower is high enough and has the backing of the rest of the
leadership. If a regular employee does this the best outcome is they get fired
the worst outcome is it turns into a drawn out court battle and the employee
loses.

It is the same with HR. HR is not there to protect employees. HR is there to
protect the company and the easiest way to do that is to get rid of
troublemaking employees even if they are making a valid case.

~~~
skybrian
I don't know how it works at other companies, but at least at some places, the
in-house lawyers are a resource that employees can use to get business-related
legal questions answered. Yes, they're on the company's side, but that doesn't
mean they'll consider you a "whistleblower" or a "troublemaker" for asking a
few questions.

Seems like you're making this into a company-versus-employee dispute when it
hasn't reached that stage yet. And better to avoid turning it into that.

~~~
dkarapetyan
From the author's tone it is pretty clear this is a pervasive problem. It is
highly unlikely company lawyers are not aware. In fact they most likely were
consulted for the exact same things the author is concerned about. It is naive
and borderline stupid to think you can innocently bring up the issue by asking
questions and not face any negative repercussions.

~~~
skybrian
In that case it should be an easy question to answer. "You've probably
considered this already, but I was wondering about the legal issues around
[...]. Is there anything we need to worry about here?"

If nobody is willing to consult the lawyers about their area of expertise, why
have them?

~~~
dkarapetyan
I don't think I'm getting through to you. In the interest of self preservation
the author should stay as far away from company lawyers and HR as possible. In
fact if you are facing a moral or ethical dilemma then no company resource
will be of any use. Company resources will actively hinder you. I will repeat,
it is naive to think otherwise.

~~~
skybrian
I'm not sure what you mean by "self-preservation". If you mean keeping your
job - well, other posters have suggested quitting. If just talking to people
gets you fired, you probably don't want to work there anyway.

Of course, that assumes a certain level of privilege. For someone who can't
afford to quit and find another job, things are different.

------
sliverstorm
Every big company will cross your feelings of what is right or ethical every
now and again. I would chalk this up to the simple fact that a big company is
composed of many different people, with different ethics.

Day-to-day, what really matters to your experience is the direct team around
you. You're a little enclave inside a larger organization, and may never
really interact outside said enclave.

But, we also like to take pride in what we do. If you are ashamed to work for
the company, that will probably eat at you. You might learn something that
changes your perspective that leads to changing your mind, but the company
probably won't change.

------
getpost
What do you mean by "fair?" Business isn't about being fair in the sense of
fair play ("chivalry"). Do you mean your employer is engaging in illegal
monopolistic practices? Is advertising fraudulent?

~~~
throwaway173205
I could see it being monopolistic, though it would be debatable.

They don't follow the golden rule. They do X to other companies, while
actively preventing other companies from doing X to them. If X is okay, then
it should be a two way street. If X is not okay, then it should be a zero way
street. Either of those positions I could be happy with. In no case of good
behavior is X a one way street.

------
a_small_island
How linked into the company are you? Are you linked into the dirty growth
hacks? Is the CEO linked into the culture and aware of these 'sketchy things'?

Below I will attempt to recruit responses from my hacker news connections.

------
SeaDude
Sounds very American to me. What's the problem?

You make it sound as if Tech is some way insulated from the practices required
for a business to exhibit constant growth.

Want idealistic tech? Get the cuff out of big Corp OR... practice perception
management. Do "you" (aka be yourself without compromise). If you have ethics
/ ideals to uphold, do so in a way that creates value for the project.

Show how your values / ethics provide value to the project. Be dope. Produce
results with your values / ethics in front of you. Production can't be
disputed.

------
grok2
This is one of those real-life-is-this-way kind of things...it's usually hard
to change company culture because it reflects the nature or behavior or
actions of somebody right from the top. Things won't change unless the person
managing things changes. The best thing to do is to enjoy your job as much as
you can and keep your little part of the world clean and maybe consider
changing jobs if it makes you too unhappy or forces you to compromise on your
view-point of how things should be.

------
Nomentatus
Start by voting for people who want to enforce our existing laws against
fraud, leveraging monopoly power, and who might treat public utilities (any
business with a network effect) (whether shiny or not) as public utilities and
regulate 'em like our great grandfathers did.

There aren't many, but there are a few.

"I'm enjoying my work with the Imperium and they seem well-organized but some
of their policies, like mass death, fer instance..."

------
jwatte
Rather won than lose? Sounds like every big business I know.

By "fair," do you mean "legally defensible in court" or "morally upright
according to middle class values?" Turns out, successful large American
companies go for the former; if you want the latter, then you probably need to
look for a smaller colorant, ideally founded around a mission. Non profit and
government work can also be good for that.

~~~
throwaway173205
I had worked at a different large tech company for a long while and never had
the feeling that they treated their users or competitors this way.

------
kalu
Have a look at Peter Drucker's classic "Managing Oneself"

[https://www.amazon.com/Managing-Oneself-Harvard-Business-
Cla...](https://www.amazon.com/Managing-Oneself-Harvard-Business-
Classics/dp/142212312X)

Drucker takes a firm stand on this issue. He advises to "put values first"

------
tehwalrus
Quit, and be honest about the reason.

Obviously, best to find another job first.

(I have done something like this at two companies, for similar ethics
reasons.)

------
segmondy
There is nothing like fighting fair in business. So long as it's legal you are
good to go. If it's not legal, run! I like companies that are passionate about
their product, customers and crushing their competitors. Lots of businesses
with amazing products have gone bankrupt in the name of playing fair.

~~~
xiaoma
How much time do you devote to studying what is and isn't legal?

------
HillaryBriss
Is there any value or sense in revealing to the general public some details
about the company's dodgy practices?

~~~
spdustin
Are you asking sincerely, or as a passive aggressive commentary about OP's
query? If the former: I think, yes, if whistleblowing can motivate change that
would prevent fraud.

If the latter, OP didn't disclose anything about a specific company.

~~~
HillaryBriss
It was a sincere question.

How should I have phrased it to avoid ambiguity?

~~~
jwatte
You can't, because sarcasm is a thing and it's often impossible to detect in
writing from people you don't already know.

------
simbalion
Go into business for yourself.

Truth be told, no matter what the circumstances are that is the correct
answer.

------
pasbesoin
Learn. Know there is a next step, elsewhere. Prepare and be pro-active.

Nothing like seeing some of what you don't like and don't want to accept, to
help you define your own boundaries and what you do want.

Good luck!

------
gaelow
Whitout being more specific I would say that, in general, fighting the
policies works even worse than ignoring them. Try to become somebody who can
dictate them.

------
CodeWriter23
It's called "business". The question to you is, how are you going to get into
a position to create your own company that is built on your values?

------
dewster
Life is really, really short. Always stand up for what you believe, you'll be
a much better person for it. Don't have regrets on your deathbed.

------
r2dnb
When I was employed, I considered that I was working for the
Founder/CEO/Director so one of the most important things for me was to be
inspired and in-sync with him. He was the one I would make richer, so I had to
be happy and proud to make this person richer.

This has never been my intention, but it turned out that that one of these
persons became my investor. The takeaway is that focusing on the mission and
culture will always pay the highest dividends (even though these dividends may
not be money initially)

That being said, I have no problem with unethical, but do have a problem with
dishonest and deceitful. Sextoys are unethical, cold calls are unethical
etc... I agree with those saying that a company needs to get the ball rolling.
Organic growth doesn't start a business, it makes it sustainable.

Think about the healthy food business. Being healthy is simple : eat raw
fruits, eat raw vegetables, repeat. Yet even an "ethical" company will need to
add many refined ingredients to push the expiry date farer, and differentiate
on colour, taste, etc... They need to literally add poison to health. Is that
unethical ? If you say yes, then all healthy food companies should be fresh
fruit market sellers in order to remain ethical.

There's no such thing as ethics in business. But there is integrity and
mission. Integrity is standing for who you are. Sometimes standing for who you
are requires kicking people in the noise in bars, other times it requires
remaining silent in front of the greatest outrage. Individual actions alone
cannot define an identity, therefore no single action or act should be flagged
as always bad or always good. Good has been defended with violence (bastille
day), bad has been defended with silence (slavery).

>What should I do

Do not focus on what they do but on why they do it. It wouldn't be wise since
a company never is where it would like to be. Quite frankly, ask a 5min
meeting with your CEO/or a very senior manager, this is the kind of chat they
usually love to have. And perhaps nobody ever told him. In addition to feeling
relieved you will also score, they'll give you credit for that. Simply, don't
sound like you think you are better than them, and don't lecture them. Just
voice your concern, and be honest, curious, and humble.

------
jsprogrammer
Companies only act through their employees. You are an employee, so you either
need to fix the company or stop being an employee.

------
formula_ninguna
What could you do? You're an employee. Nothing. Try talking to them.

------
known
Introduce new tools, not policies to your big co;

------
Zelmor
So you are working for Oracle, OP?

------
smoyer
It's okay throwaway173205 - Lot's off Googlers are becoming disillusioned by
the failure to "Don't be evil".

~~~
Jerry2
Alphabet/Google retired its "Don't be evil" motto last year.

[http://time.com/4060575/alphabet-google-dont-be-
evil/](http://time.com/4060575/alphabet-google-dont-be-evil/)

~~~
smoyer
So now is it simply allowed or is it actively encouraged?

------
grimmdude
Either leave or put up with it.

------
blondie9x
How long have you been there?

------
ljlolel
Quit Uber

~~~
fma
The OP's company isn't the leader, so Lyft would be the company to call out.

~~~
tjfl
Aren't they?

> They are in an industry where the leader has a big natural advantage, and
> they are in that lead by a large margin.

~~~
engizeer
Could be AWS.

~~~
nindalf
It sounded like an app targeting end users, possibly a mobile app that sucks
up all the data on the device. AWS is unlikely because I don't think anyone
could get away with fooling a large segment of the developer population for an
extended length of time. Even if they could, why would they? AWS is their
golden goose, engaging in shady/unethical practices would mean no more golden
eggs.

