
Headphones are collecting too much personal data (2019) - teddyh
https://www.soundguys.com/headphones-are-collecting-too-much-personal-data-21524/
======
monksy
The article should have buried sony for how egregious they are. They require
the app to collect location information, and ear.
[https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00233341](https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00233341)
I'm not sure what else they collect.. but those are the 2 bad ones.

They've got a few settings that are software controlled (one being the
bluetooth's internal volume) What happens if you get a software update and you
open the app on a plane without wifi? You can't use it because it requires the
internet to get the latest _required tos_ to use your headphones. You can't
proceed further without being forced into an agreement. Clicking "don't
accept" pushes you back to the tos screen.

~~~
niklasd
I recently tried out wireless noise-cancelling headphones from both Bose and
Sony, and (the important privacy issues aside) the user experience with these
apps is just horrible.

You unpack your Bose headphone, eager to use them. But before that, you have
to download an app on the iPhone, then download a software update program on
your laptop, which in turn opens a program in the browser that downloads an
update, then you connect the headphones with a wire to the laptop that the
update gets installed, and THEN you can start using them.

I send both back and now I'm a happy AirPod user.

~~~
cactus2093
I didn’t find that an issue at all, and not sure what you mean about the
laptop part I only use the mobile app to upgrade my qc 35s.

I do find the Bose UX to be horrible though for another reason, which is the
incredibly stupid “feature” that the headphones can be connected to multiple
devices at once. Since I use it both with my phone and laptop and they’re
often in range of each other, sometimes the audio control will just switch
back to the other device than the one I’m trying to use, I assume because of
some background process that’s still open, and I lose my sound. If one device
is on the edge of connectivity range, it’ll beep every couple of minutes as it
connects and disconnects even though I’m not even using it. Then if I ever
want to connect a third device like a tablet, it’s made to switch back and
forth between exactly 2 devices not 3 so things get even more messed up.

It’s quite annoying, and I feel like I’m the only one bothered by these issues
because I don’t see a lot of other people complaining. But I’ll definitely be
switching to a different brand away from Bose when these headphones wear out.
Probably the upcoming over ear Apple headphones, since I find airpods to not
have any of these issues and generally work great at switching between two
devices without being stolen back by the previous device.

~~~
therealdrag0
I love this feature, but Mac is the bully in this situation. It captures the
connection often even when nothing is playing and when Mac is asleep it still
tries to connect and probably due to low power mode takes FOREVER for the
phone to sync and realize what I actually want is to play audio from my phone
not laptop...

I found this project which helps with the later problem:
[https://github.com/odlp/bluesnooze](https://github.com/odlp/bluesnooze)

~~~
cactus2093
Yeah maybe this is another case of walled garden apple stuff where it only
works well if you're 100% in their ecosystem. They seem to have very chatty
bluetooth headphone code in general, like the airpods are effectively always
in pair mode you don't have to hold a button down or anything to get them to
start pairing to another device. But the end result is it does work with fewer
headaches than my Bose QC35 and is still just as easy to switch between
devices. And apparently there are further improvements with that coming in
iOS14 too.

------
acd
I tend to use passive headphones with 3.5mm jack, they have no electronics in
them except the small speakers. They do not collect data. They are also used
by musicians when doing audio mixing so its should sounds neutral and good.

That the headphones does not have electronics and batteries means they will
last longer and thus be be better for the environment.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _they will last longer and thus be be better for the environment_

This isn’t necessarily true.

My wireless headphones have been with me for years. My wired earbuds are cheap
enough that I can lose or damage them without care. The former are far better
for the environment.

~~~
atoav
My Sennheiser HD25 have been with me for 10 years and I stepped on them,
dropped them used them outside in the rain, in sub zero degrees and three
times a week while jogging.

10 years of that is a _heavy_ thing to survive. In fact I know hardly any
object that would have survived this long.

~~~
arendtio
My Sennheiser RS180 died a few month ago after about 8 years or so. They had
normal rechargeable batteries, but it seems it was something else that broke
down (the batteries got replaced a few times).

For my Sennheiser MB 660 I just replaced the ear cushions after about 3 years,
but I am still 'worried' that some day the built-in battery will give up. Not
because I can't afford new ones, but because I hate if a product dies due to
an old battery.

I own a few wired headphones/headsets, but there is none I used as much as my
RS180 and when I think about it, I doubt that the cable would have survived
the usage. Actually, I had to repair one of the wired headset once. The MB 660
can be used with a (removable) cable, but I use it only on airplanes or when
the device I want to use has neither USB (dongle) nor Bluetooth.

While I am privacy savvy person, my bigger concern is about health. Having an
active unit all day in such proximity to my brain, makes me wonder if they are
actually that safe to use.

~~~
throwaway_pdp09
I wonder if wireless ones can be hijacked and requested to produce and ultra
loud pulse to damage hearing. I suppose that's possible with wired ones buy I
guess you'd need to broadcast plenty of energy for them to pick up, which
makes it impractical, whereas with wireless ones you just need to get control
of the signal. I'm guessing though.

~~~
Marsymars
Depends on the type of wireless headphone. I can envision that as possible if
you can break Bluetooth encryption and crank up the volume, but there are RF
wireless headphones where the digital signal doesn't contain volume level,
which is entirely on-device and only controllable with physical buttons.

------
myth2018
Drugstores in Brazil are doing it and that concerns me A LOT.

Their modus operandi is to ask you your CPF (it's like an SSN, but not that
secret and powerful) and, if you refuse to tell them, you are not eligible for
some discounts which can reach 40% in some more expensive items.

Customers happily agree to give their CPFs, completely unaware they are of the
potentially disastrous consequences, and we are not even offered something
resembling a privacy policy.

Think of the uses of such data. Health insurers could use them to detect and
even predict health issues. One could estimate menstrual cycles and even the
size of your genitalia.

A Brazilian data protection law is about to become active within the next
weeks, but honestly.. such data shouldn't even be collected at all.

I'm looking for support for a bill to forbid drugstores to collect CPFs and to
offer any sort of discount to people who identify themselves, but I believe
this should be more publicized before being discussed for voting by the
Congress. The more active drugstores on the "data business" are part of huge
chains and their lobby will definitely be massive. Society should be aware of
that and counterbalance for such lobby.

~~~
someguyorother
How do they know the CPF you give is really yours (or exists at all)? Do they
also insist that you use a credit card?

~~~
rlayton2
This is a good point. I often "misspell" private information if its not an
official form. If someone had more motivation, they could do a "different-
secure-number-per-provider" trick and work out who leaked the information.

~~~
myth2018
That's a good idea. I also feed fake data to those "extra-official"
enlistments. But never thought about keeping a control to discover the
responsible for the occasional leak.

In Brazilian drugstores, there are legitimate situations where they actually
need your data, e.g., when you need some injectable medicine. In such cases,
they need to send an official notice for government control, BUT they also ask
you for an original document.

P.S.: one might argue that government shouldn't have access to data about
injectable medicines you take. Personally, given the severe situation
regarding drug-abuse of countries like ours, USA and others, I see some valid
motivation in such tight controls.

------
shadowprofile77
Truly, is it possible for tech companies today to release even one fucking
product, even something so simple as headphones, without piling on all the
desperate, grubby, scummy tracking bloat and related shit possible in an
effort to turn you into a product EVEN when you're paying for their creations.
It's revolting and sincerely deserves to be harshly punished by the market (if
enough consumers could be bothered to give enough of a shit about something so
"irrelevant" as their basic privacy).

~~~
briandear
You mean like Beats or Apple AirPods? They don’t collect user data at all.

~~~
shadowprofile77
My exasperated comment isn't meant to deny that products like these don't
exist, it's more of a recrimination of those companies (and they are far too
many, with it becoming steadily more habitual among them all the time) which
simply can't keep themselves from squeezing and grubbing and pawing at our
personal information for the sake of every last drop of monetization taken to
disgusting levels of disrespect even for paying customers. All of it justified
by cliche boilerplate nonsense about "caring for your' privacy" while they
cram as much of the opposite down your throat as possible.

I don't care that maybe, just maybe, company X doesn't sell my personal
information as a user of theirs to third parties (though I steadily doubt more
and more about the claims of any company promising that it doesn't, and then
there are also unintentional data leaks of things they supposedly don't keep
stored) I also want goddam company X itself to not pry into my life so much
just because I use a fucking pair of headphones or a blender, or a
refrigerator or any number of other products that are being designed more
often by the day to track everything you do with them and feed it all back to
their creators. The sheer arrogance of the whole trend deserves much more
criticism than it gets.

------
retrac
Only a slightly related tangent, but most headphones and other loudspeakers
can be very effective microphones when wired into the right circuit.

While speakers are often wired directly to a one-way DAC, that's not always
the case. Sometimes the analog lines are all fed into a multiplexer and it can
be routed to a ADC. Sometimes it's wired to a general purpose IO pin.

In such cases, reprogramming could turn that speaker into a microphone. I
wonder if anyone has exploited this in the wild yet.

~~~
jacquesm
You can do the opposite of noise cancellation too: determine the back emf from
the speaker compared to the audio input, that will give you the audio in the
room. So you can use the same circuit both to drive the speaker _and_ use it
as a microphone. As good as undetectable until you trace the circuitry of what
looks like an ordinary amplifier. The difference is on the order of a few mV
but that's more than enough.

My personal favorite is the laser attack that turns any shiny surface into a
microphone. When it's not on it literally isn't there.

~~~
layoutIfNeeded
No need to use a laser if there’s an incandescent bulb in the room:
[https://www.wired.com/story/lamphone-light-bulb-vibration-
sp...](https://www.wired.com/story/lamphone-light-bulb-vibration-spying/)

~~~
jacquesm
Oh that's a neat one. Thank you for that link.

------
everdrive
When I was younger, I was wondering what it would feel like to to feel 'left
behind' by technology. I remember helping so many adults to navigate a world
they didn't understand. They'd ask "left click or right click?" every time I
asked them to use their mouse. They just couldn't grasp some of the context.

This is not quite the same thing, but I'm starting to feel that perhaps I am
starting to witness that same disconnect. Having read the title alone, I
wondered "how are the headphones collecting data?" Oh, there's an app. Why
would you need an app for headphones? It simply never occurred to me.

------
lysium
> "Bose Connect app was found to be tracking what users were listening to and
> sending that data back to the company to be sold".

I did not know that!

~~~
josteink
You buy the most expensive headsets in the premium-end of the consumer-
segment, and yet you’re still not the customer.

Utterly disgusting.

------
qwerty456127
We just should to stop tolerating conventional things using Internet
connection. There is no way headphones really need an Internet-connected app
to work and even to let you use advanced functions (i.e. all the configuration
can be implemented in a purely offline app). And if they don't need they
should not even nudge, let alone require, you to install such. Most of the
people just don't give a uck, somebody competent on the state level should
give it.

~~~
IgniteTheSun
"We just should to stop tolerating conventional things using Internet
connection."

Given IoT and 5G how can you stop this?

------
maest
The move to no-jack phones really only exacerbates this problem.

It's difficult for manufacturers to justify an app for wired headphones, but,
now that bluetooth is becoming the new norm, there's suddenly a justification
for instrusive, data-collecting apps.

This whole story is a really good reason for keeping headphone jacks on
phones.

~~~
dkersten
I would rather give up on a smartphone than give up on my wireless headphones.
Hell, I was without a phone for a few months a couple of years back and it
felt liberating. It’ll be my excuse to be a permanent smartphone luddite.

~~~
flukus
I did the same, went without a phone for a few weeks (getting
repaired/replaced) and it taught me a lot about how much I was overusing it.
The most important change was turning off nearly all notifications
(interruptions), but I've slid back into other bad habits like mobile
reddit/HN since.

I've toyed with the idea of going back to a dedicated MP3 player for music and
audio books, they should be cheaper and smaller than the last time I had one
and with actual buttons they have a superior user interface (phones are
versatile but a bit shit at everything). After that I could probably ditch a
smart phone entirely.

~~~
dkersten
I actually made a conscious effort not to idly listen to music anymore, so
when I listen now, its purely for the enjoyment of listening to music. When I
go for a walk, I listen to nature and let my mind drift without constant
stimulation. I enjoy the music a lot more this way.

Yeah, I find 90% of what I use my iphone fir, I could really do without, like
social media. When this phone dies, I plan on getting a cheap dumb one for
emergency calls (I can still communicate with friends over IM on a laptop) and
not replace the smartphone.

The experience taught me that I do not need to be stimulated all the time and
I don’t need to be connected or reachable all the time. It felt liberating
knowing that when I left home/office and was out of wifi reach, that I
wouldnn’t get bothered by work requests. It felt liberating knowing that,
while inconveint at times, I had to arrange a time and place to meet people,
and we had to thennstick to it, instead of “i’ll call you when I’m near,
whenever ir whetever that may be”.

The only reason I went back to having a phone is a family member got annoyed
and bought me one, but a middle ground would have been to get a dumb (phone
calls and SMS only) phone, rather than a smartphone or going without a phone
completely like I did.

------
duxup
TIL, Headphones have apps.

Apps are quickly becoming this weird add on that I really don't want.

~~~
luckycharms810
Apps are the new drivers.

~~~
duxup
Man I vaguely recall when you could use an .ini file as a driver in windows
back in the day...

------
t0mmyb0y
Why in the world would anyone need headphones that need personal info?

~~~
heavyset_go
Everyone, including headphone manufacturers, are trying to get in on the gold
rush that is turning their customers into fonts of personal data that can be
sold to the highest bidder.

~~~
zelly
I see this sentiment mentioned a lot, but who actually pays for this data? Is
there a company I can call that will buy my amorphous "user data"? What are
their names?

~~~
mixmastamyk
One user is worthless, a few pennies. A million and things get interesting.

~~~
zelly
Say I have a database full of metrics, user agents, IPs, GPS, names,
addresses, photos, etc. on a million users, who would I call to sell it?
Genuinely curious.

~~~
glenstein
Here's a list of approximately a hundred companies that acquire and sell data
in various ways, some of whom would plausibly be interested in your
hypothetical trove of data:

[https://konsole.zendesk.com/hc/en-
us/articles/217592967-Thir...](https://konsole.zendesk.com/hc/en-
us/articles/217592967-Third-Party-Data-Marketplace)

------
catchmeifyoucan
I use Bluetooth headphones, but almost never use or bother to set up the
associated app. So hopefully Bluetooth pairing alone isn’t enough. Looks a lot
of these details are collected through a companion app.

~~~
_trampeltier
Yes me too. I really never install such apps, because they are always bad in
many ways. I just wanna a bluethoot speaker or headphone. I really don't care
for the mostly useless fancy software things. And most of the times, it's even
possible to use these things also with a 3.5mm jack

~~~
IshKebab
Sometimes these apps are necessary though. For instance you can only turn the
Google Assistant button off on Sony headphones in their app, there's an
additional (better!) noise reduction mode only available through the app,
firmware updates are through the app, etc. (I get the firmware updates because
I'm vaguely hoping that one day they will fix the hilariously annoying flaw
that they turning them on always activates noise cancellation.)

------
api
Everything spies on you. There's money in it.

I've come to believe that this can only be fixed with legislation and
regulation. There are no technical fixes that could practically be deployed as
there is far too much "attack surface" and anyway there is zero incentive to
deploy them.

In the meantime: install as few apps as possible on phones, be careful about
IoT and personal assistance devices, and use Apple or Linux (not Android)
based systems as they seem to have the best record for security and privacy.

~~~
heavyset_go
iOS exploits are cheaper than Android exploits because they are so plentiful.
Plenty of apps on iOS have been caught activating the camera or snooping on
the clipboard on iPhones.

~~~
RealStickman_
If you use Android you have to install a custom rom though to guarantee your
privacy.

~~~
heavyset_go
If you use iOS, you have no other option than just trusting the vendor. You
couldn't do anything to make it more secure even if you wanted to.

~~~
RealStickman_
iOS seems to be more privacy oriented (for the western market, where the
government does not yet have the power to force them to comply) by default,
while android needs more work put in. If you did as much as you could to
secure both I'd agree with you that android is more secure.

------
rkagerer
When you buy food there's a label on the package that tells you what's in it.

When you buy cigarettes there's a big warning label about the risk to your
health.

I think consumer devices need something like that. Imagine browsing an aisle
and seeing a label on the package like "WARNING: These earbuds phone home with
the track names you play, your GPS location and menstruation cycle history."
How many people do you think will buy that box vs. the cheap $20 pair with the
analog plug?

~~~
trickstra
But... they do. When you install the app, people routinely agree with "This
app wants access to your contact list, storage, internet, and to run at
startup". But I get your point, it should be on the box, before you buy the
hardware. Currently they can easily argue that you can install the software
from appstore, check the required permissions, before even buying the
hardware. But that's not enough.

~~~
lm28469
> "This app wants access to your contact list, storage, internet, and to run
> at startup"

If you don't agree most of the time the app quits and you can't use the
product you bought.

------
unethical_ban
Re: Personal fitness and menstruation history - Is that shocking? They're
earbuds, but they're marketed as fitness buds that track personal data. It
looks like Fitbit for your ears. Fitbit and Apple Health (or whatever it is
called) does these kinds of things as well.

Re: Bose collecting all that stuff

I can see "why" they would want all that, in order to optimize their sound
output of their buds to the kind of music and environments for which they are
used. That should, of course, be opt-in, but I don't think it is evil.

Do I necessarily like the latter example? No. I believe, like the "cookie
policies" that exist on many websites, there should be "Needed permissions"
and "Please thank you" permissions, and they should incentivize the consumer
to help them out. Amazon does this on their Kindles: $20 off if you let them
run ads on the lock screen.

But if all the manufacturers do this, then what competition is there to push
them to change?

~~~
amelius
> I can see "why" they would want all that, in order to optimize their sound
> output of their buds to the kind of music and environments for which they
> are used.

I can't see why they would need so many samples. Wouldn't using the data from
(say) 100 Bose employees be sufficient to cover most noisy environments these
buds are used in?

~~~
floatingatoll
If you're trying for perfection, then not even remotely, no. The type of data
provided by "one million users" will uncover issues that "one hundred users"
simply never can.

I believe it was iOS 10 or 11 developer betas that would, on each beta update,
run a trial APFS conversion process against the phone's internal filesystem,
check the result for consistency, and then _discard the replica_ and report
success/failure w/ logs — so that Apple could find the issues that they
couldn't find at 'one hundred users' scale.

------
baochan
How exactly does a headphone app have access to your alcohol use and
menstruation history? Where is it pulling this data from?

~~~
caymanjim
They don't. The app may ask for it, and there may be some benefit to the user
if they provide it, but it's not like the headphones magically acquire any of
the data the author is complaining about.

If people want to give their personal information out, that's up to them. I
personally limit what information I share, and I get annoyed when devices or
apps try to sneakily get more information than I'm willing to intentionally
provide, but this article is silly.

The younger generation has grown up without a sense of personal privacy, and
they're largely ok with it. They will happily give away personal details in
exchange for a "free" app or product, and they bend over backwards to expose
their entire lives via images and videos on social media. There's always mock
outrage when someone "discovers" that the reason the Internet is free is
because someone is selling personal data to drive advertising, but everyone
knows that. Most people just don't care.

~~~
saurik
They care. It exudes as a cynicism about the world and continual jokes about
talking to the FBI agent assigned to watch them. They (as are we) are just
powerless to prevent it as every single service and every single platform and
apparently every single product is collecting data on us. And since the value
of services and platforms and, sadly, even products goes up as more people are
using them, the arguments of "don't use these products and vote with your
dollars" that people constantly push are nonsensical: you can value your
privacy but also value having a romantic partner, and most people these days
use dating apps to date; you can value your privacy but also value getting
invited to the birthday party, and most people these days invite everyone to
their party on a social network; you can value your privacy but also value
being able to travel, and so unless you want to be the one insane person in
your friend group who doesn't use Lyft/Uber and never knows when the public
transportation is running late and takes forever to book hotels (and always
ends up spending a lot more when you do)... well, you are going to use a bunch
of apps that do a bunch of data collection.

People care. They have no choice.

~~~
renewiltord
That sounds like you do have a choice: spend more money. In a world where this
wasn't allowed, presumably you'd be forced to spend more money. So you can
inhabit that world right now if you want.

~~~
La1n
>That sounds like you do have a choice: spend more money.

This is not an option for everyone. Don't poor people deserve privacy too?

~~~
renewiltord
Sure, but they deserve to be able to make the choice too. So if you move to a
world where selling your data for services isn't available, then you're
forcing them to pay and since we've determined they can't pay, all you're
doing is removing the choice from them and forcing them in to the no-service
option.

And I know how it is because I was once affected by this. All these "but the
poor people" folks disappear when the poor actually ask for help. It's like
this:

Poor people: Hey, can we get the right to work for a living in a dignified way
and use the same services as everyone else?

The Privileged Protectors: Okay, how about I make it so you can't work for
more than 20 hrs and umm... I'll throw in some privacy

Poor people:...

You can't eat privacy.

~~~
La1n
>So if you move to a world where selling your data for services isn't
available, then you're forcing them to pay and since we've determined they
can't pay, all you're doing is removing the choice from them and forcing them
in to the no-service option.

Like this is the only option... We already see a lot of services that sell
multiple tiers of their products, with power users or larger companies paying
significantly more.

~~~
renewiltord
Oh and now they don't deserve this better service and you've made the choice
for them. No thanks.

So eager to remove choices from someone else.

~~~
La1n
>So eager to remove choices from someone else.

Oh people can't afford a car if it has seatbelts? Poor people should be able
to buy unsafe cars! It's their choice!

~~~
renewiltord
Well, yes, obviously.

------
fffernan
I'm wondering if someone could file HIPAA complaint at them and get these
things classified as Medical Devices and shut this sharing of bio data down. A
simple opt-out doesn't fly with HIPAA. It requires a signature that you will
allow another person to access your medical records.

------
chooseaname
Give me a dumb pair of headphones with a 3.5mm jack and I'm happy.

Edit: Thinking about this article more, it really goes back to hardware not
getting funding unless there's a model for recurrent income. It's going to get
a LOT worse before we either wise up or give up.

------
DanielleMolloy
To those only looking for the noise cancelling component of modern headphones:
I was only interested in this as I already have a good pair of (wired,
offline) hi-fi headphones, and given some HN comments on this I decided for
Peltor x5a passive noise cancelling earmuffs. No batteries to charge and
become disfunctional with time, no spy-apps, no potential hearing damage from
ANC (not sure what the status is here), no cables, no bluetooth issues; and
you get Peltors for 15-30$ so no problem if they break because you stored them
in the bottom of a bag. My growing collection of low tech might look a bit
dorky but I love it.

------
im3w1l
Are these associated apps mandatory for getting the headphones working or are
they just value adds?

~~~
Godel_unicode
Just value adds, you can listen just fine without them. You might lose (in the
case of the headphones that lead to the article) some fitness tracking
features, ANC or EQ fine-tuning, or other additional functionality but they'll
work just fine for audio.

~~~
httgp
To add to this list, they also let us upgrade firmware.

~~~
the_pwner224
Bose has a computer-based firmware updater over USB, I used it with their
relatively new noise cancelling 700 headphones since I don't use the Bose
Music app. Website launches a Windows desktop application for the update.
Worked great in a Windows virtual machine with USB passthrough.

For older QC35 headphones there's a 'based-connect' repo on github that lets
you configure the headphones; unfortunately the newer models such as the NC700
have encrypted firmware update files so I couldn't easily reverse engineer the
protocol to get all the BT commands to configure all the options you can
change in the app. Actually the app didn't even work on my Android phone
without GApps, so I couldn't sniff the connection either...

------
ddingus
Not mine with the simple wire.

The digital video transition has been a net good, though I will say analog
output is easier, takes fewer resources, but those are plentiful. No worries.

Audio isn't the same. All existing gear remains relevant.

The data collection is something I hate viscerally.

Also why I do not stream music.

------
qmmmur
Mine don't because they're hard wired into whatever device I use.

~~~
starky
Exactly, it will be a cold day in hell before I buy a pair of headphones that
I have to charge on order to make them work or have any "smart" features.

~~~
Larrikin
I broke down when I finally found good noise cancelling headphones that will
continue working without battery. The annoying part now is that layering pass
through audio of the outside world on top of what I'm listening to has become
pretty nice.

------
vladTheInhaler
I see a lot of people talking about Bose and Sony and their awful apps, but
there are alternatives! I have been using my Sennheiser PXC 550's for almost a
year now with no software updates or other nonsense. If it has an app, I
certainly don't know about it. About the only complaint I have is how easy it
is to accidentally hang up on someone with the touch controls on the ear.
Normally I support more organized solutions, but this seems like a clear case
of voting with your wallet.

~~~
kkapelon
It has an app.

And unfortunately the app is the only way to set noise reduction to any level
other than 0%, 50%, 100% (that is available with the hardware button).

If for example you want noise reduction to 75% you need to use the app.

Same for changing the sound profiles from the defaults.

------
kerneltime
My LG washer dryer app needs to know my location... why? They won’t let me add
it without giving app location access.. so does the YI camera now.. this is
getting a bit out of hand.

------
ktr
Has anyone had any experience with new Bose headphones? If you use the Bose
Connect app, I believe what the author wrote is accurate. But that app doesn’t
work on the newer headphones (at least, not the ones I have). Instead I need
to download the “Bose Music” app which doesn’t seem to give you the same
options for privacy. And if you don’t use that app, the headphones are much
less useful (eg, no hardware controls to switch which device you are connected
to).

~~~
aragorn9
Why do you think they made a new app to begin with? the piracy policy is the
same, its just after the media hype died down they saw no reason to add the
opt out

~~~
RealStickman_
> piracy policy

Not sure if this was intentional, but it made me chuckle.

------
darthrupert
Yeah, I'm getting more and more convinced about my purchase strategy for
electronics:

1\. Get as simple and durable as possible

2\. If it has to be complex, get something made by Apple

3\. There's no rule three

------
neiman
If I had the resources, I would establish an organization for privacy badges
for products. From "absolutely anonymous", through "necessary violations of
privacy for function" till "unnecessary harvesting of data".

Till such an organization for handing out badges will exist, it will be a hard
task to buy any hardware and being able to trust its privacy.

~~~
jakub_g
~ [https://tosdr.org/](https://tosdr.org/)

~~~
neiman
Thanks, looks great.

------
renewiltord
If it results in lower prices, I'm fine with this. But they should be clear
about what they're collecting.

------
maps7
As someone with both Bose QC IIs and the Sony WH-1000MX, this is annoying but
not much I can do about it - they're expensive and I doubt I could resell them
for as much (would reselling even be ethical now?). I also really like noise
cancelling, especially now I am working from home.

~~~
jakereps
I mean you can just not use the apps, can’t you? The headphones don’t
magically ship data home through the device. The app is what you agree to
their privacy policy through and is what reads all the metadata through usage
and then sends it home. I deleted all of my headphone apps the first time I
saw the note about sending all audio titles to Bose in the privacy policies.

~~~
maps7
Oh that's fine then. I don't use the apps at all - I think they were required
on set up though.

------
colecut
I have both Beats Wireless noise cancelling headphones (provided by work) and
Bose wireless noise cancelling..

I have never even thought about downloading the apps for either of them. I
never even thought to consider if they have apps. I just bluetooth to my phone
and listen to music.

Am I really missing out?

------
loktarogar
I just went on 2 12+ hour flights and every few minutes my phone had a "These
aren't your airpods" or similar message. I had no airpods, they were someone
elses on the flights, but they still interacted with my phone often.

------
bitwize
For now, Bose QuietComforts appear to pair just fine with Bluetooth without
requiring the Bose Connect app, so that's how I've been using them. I'm afraid
that non-smart headphones will soon go the way of non-smart TVs.

------
elvicherrera
Is there a true app that, preferably open source, that can disable the all
microphones, confidently, for all apps, without having to physically disable
my microphone as Edward Snowden suggested?

~~~
teddyh
If one app can turn the microphone off, can another app turn it back on?

~~~
toomuchtodo
Depends on the permissions model of the OS, and if you trust the OS. Hence why
Edward Snowden and Bunnie Huang developed the Introspection Engine [1].

It’s reasonable to assume that if you can’t audit and review the code of the
app and the OS, you can trust neither and need safeguards at lower levels of
the stack.

[1] [https://www.tjoe.org/pub/direct-radio-
introspection/release/...](https://www.tjoe.org/pub/direct-radio-
introspection/release/2)

~~~
monadic2
You forgot the firmware of the headphones!

~~~
toomuchtodo
Corded headphones! :) at least until open firmware exists.

~~~
treve
Ever tried to connect a corded headphone into a microphone jack? It works
quite well

~~~
wizzwizz4
Is there some kind of diode for AC signals?

~~~
formerly_proven
Yes, they're called amplifiers. Directional coupling circuits would apply in
theory, but not in practice; they're good enough to do full-duplex audio over
two wires, but not nearly good enough to deal with the sensitivity of analog
inputs if you want to prevent a signal from being read.

------
c3534l
Can we all just take a step back and appreciate what a techno-dystopia we're
living in that this is now a headline no one bats an eye about?

~~~
mindfulhack
I first really appreciated your thought - indeed, the fact that "Headphones
are collecting personal data" alone feels like something unacceptable and
shocking compared to just 10 years ago.

But then I had a counter thought: You know how in the early 20th century
people said the dawn of recorded music would make 'music dead'? And many other
examples of new tech being hailed as dystopian / would cause the end of the
world? Sometimes the fear response to newness and unfamiliarity can be a
little unhelpful. I think it's our lizard brains responding there.

So I guess what I'm saying is: The fact that a new situation is so different
to an old one you were used to, isn't a cogent argument against the new
situation.

Some new tech is genuinely awesome, and old things are genuinely terrible,
e.g. old forms of industrialisation were terribly pollutive compared to forms
used today.

I'm a person who _greatly_ values my privacy, and doesn't follow the crowd -
but perhaps one needs to compare on merits alone, not on the fact that things
have changed.

------
sukilot
It's hard to muster up the energy to worry about the privacy policies of
luxury toys for rich people.

~~~
AlexandrB
As with other instances of privacy overreach, this will trickle down to
cheaper tech products in an even more invasive way - e.g. cheap "smart" TVs
that collect everything they can.

If even the rich people can't "muster up the energy" to defend themselves from
data collection, I think we're all well and truly fucked.

------
karmakaze
Glad I've been using analog earbuds under non-connected noise-cancelling
'over-earphones'.

~~~
phatfish
The only thing that annoys me about this setup is noise of the wire brushing
against clothing etc. Or if you eat with them on.

With music playing the removal of external noise is enough for me. They do
well enough blocking distracting noise used as simple ear plugs too. At least
the ~£20 Sennheiser ones I use do.

------
bryanmgreen
That being said, if anyone has unused corded Apple EarPods and the 3.5 to
lightning dongle, hit me up!

------
coronadisaster
This reminds me that I still need to root my phone so that I can remove
Google's crapware...

~~~
RealStickman_
It'd probably be easier to just go and flash lineageos and microG (if you need
that) than trying to remove google stuff.

~~~
coronadisaster
That's probably what i should do... Hopefully my phone is fully supported.

------
baal80spam
Imagine seeing such article title 10 years ago...

What happened to the world?

~~~
taytus
Companies finally figured it out that nobody cares about privacy.

~~~
skummetmaelk
And that data is money.

------
datashaman
It would be neat if we could sandbox specific mobile apps.

------
square_usual
OT, but that is the worst dickbar I've ever seen.

------
deeblering4
Not mine! They are wired, and will always be.

------
njloof
(2018)

------
titzer
In Soviet Russia, headphones listen to you!

------
Bluecobra
Ahh, this is real reason why the phone manufacturers want to get rid of the
headphone jack. I was so naive to think it was only about DRM/licensing.

~~~
dangoor
There were two things that happened when Apple got rid of the headphone jack:
(1) they added water resistance, (2) the phones got thinner. Plus, Apple had
seen the trends heading toward wireless headphones.

They still included a dongle to give you a standard headphone jack.

While Apple could likely have gotten their water resistance even with the
headphone jack, they couldn’t have made the phones as thin. People may
disagree with the product choice, but I don’t see any reason to think that
those weren’t the real reasons.

~~~
formerly_proven
> the phones got thinner

No. They didn't.

iPhone 5: 7.6 mm thin, 6: 7 mm

iPhone 7: 7.1 mm

> While Apple could likely have gotten their water resistance even with the
> headphone jack, they couldn’t have made the phones as thin.

Except that's a pretty obvious lie. Not just that the phones did not get
thinner (or lighter), they stayed around the same thickness (+- 0.5 mm), while
getting larger, much heavier and much more expensive. But also the thinnest
Android phone with a 3.5 mm jack is just 5.1 mm thick, for example. Sony even
made a waterproof phone that's 6.5 mm thin and still has a 3.5 mm jack, which
is thinner than any iPhone ever.

Everything about this argumentation is wrong or an outright lie. The only
reason they did this is because they could moneygrab through accessoires
better when they eliminate standardized I/O.

~~~
hanche
The explanation/excuse I recall seeing, was about space, not thickness. The
headphone jack takes up space inside the phone that they’d rather put to other
uses, like more battery for example. At least, that seems to make a bit more
sense.

~~~
formerly_proven
Yes it does. I think back then teardown pictures made the rounds where the
innards of the two generations where virtually the same, except they added
some component where the headphone jack used to be. And as far as smartphone
components go, a 3.5 mm jack is pretty big; I'd guess about the volume of a
camera module.

I don't know who started the thinness-jack meme, I suspect it was an
explanation made up by people other than Apple, since Apple is usually more
into omitting things instead of lying.

------
dilandau
Yeah, because some asshole business team decided that why should anyone sell a
decent product anymore, when you can squeeze your customers for their personal
information, and have a recurring/ongoing revenue stream?

It's like these shit-tier blogs and webdevs, who are tracking every single
thing you do on their sites. Are they just incapable of creating? all this
tracking...it's anti-creative in the extreme. Mechanical, soulless, lowest
common denominator. It's medium.com and web 3.0. Where's the exit bros?

------
formerly_proven
_Looking at my collection of Beyerdynamic cans_... they collect data?

------
thoughtstheseus
If anyone thinks this is concerning wait until LIDAR becomes a standard
feature.

