
Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state? - cmsefton
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50821542
======
TeeWEE
What also doesnt help is that drugs is kind-a accepted in the party scene.
XTC, Cocaine, in certain circles its quite normal that its used. And buying it
is very easy.

Also the police doesn't prioritize handling this. I heard that accross one
police station taxis would stop, get somebody in the cart, drive 100m, and
then the person gets out. The police knew that drugs was being dealed here,
but they didnt prioritize dealing with that. I don;t know exactly why.

Also: In the evening/night, in Amsterdam city centry, you can see certain guys
wandering around: They are drugs dealers, everybody who know how to recognize
them will see them popup everywhere. Including the police.

But as long as the police doesn't SEE them dealing the drugs, they cant do
anything.

That including tall the XTC producing labs in the south of holland, and the
perfect infrastructure, big harbours make the Netherlands an ideal breeding
ground for big drugs networks.

To be honest, i think we should legalize more, and accept that there is a
market for it. Yes i'm dutch too :-)

~~~
sandoooo
>everybody who know how to recognize them will see them popup everywhere.

Just out of curiosity, what are the tells for a drug dealer in Amsterdam?
Asking for a friend.

~~~
yawboakye
Black (or of African descent), alert, hands in hoodie's pockets, locking
gazes, and trying to understand the message in your gaze. Usually everyone's
moving except them (except people on their phones), when they move it's back
and forth within a short distance.

Before you scream: "Racist!"

I'm black (African, to be precise). I'm describing my experience in several
places in Germany (where I live), Prague, and Amsterdam. I trade nods (of
acknowledgement) with them and sometimes stop to speak with the Africans who
speak my type of pidgin English.

~~~
brnt
These are just runners. A significant portion of the (Amsterdam) drug trade is
handled by the so-called mocro-maffia, a group of predominantly Moroccan-
descended criminals. Much of the Dutch production is however commonly in Dutch
hands.

------
kabes
Answer: no. Not by any real definition of a narco-state[1]. There is a lot of
drug trafficking/production, but there is no meaningful infiltration into the
official institutions/government.

1\. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-
state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-state)

~~~
seqizz
Ah, of course, "Betteridge's law of headlines" [1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines)

~~~
blaser-waffle
This could be the theme of HN.

"Is React going to upend the programming world forever?!"

"AMD Soars, is Intel's time over?"

etc. etc.

------
himlion
I hope XTC gets legalized in the Netherlands as soon as possible. One of the
ruling parties (D66) is currently investigating a proposal to do so.

We are a very large producer (the largest?) and the stuff is not harmful
enough to warrant the prohibition and all of the crime it entails.

~~~
rbinv
MDMA can be incredibly harmful, especially when used frequently.

~~~
qtplatypus
So can alcohol and smoking.

~~~
drcross
So can cheeseburgers.

~~~
dkersten
And sugar.

~~~
pennaMan
And sunlight.

~~~
rocgf
And water. Especially when on MDMA.

~~~
swarnie_
Every party needs that one guys whos job it to stop everyone else accidentally
drowning themselves.

------
paganel
> They are aspirational, they are looking for a career in the underworld.

I bet they would have been really happy to become corporate lawyers, highly
paid computer programmers or big-4 accountants, but I have a slight feeling
those career opportunities were never quite open for them (except for a very
lucky few). In other words, if you only provide a "life of crime" as a way of
getting out of poverty you can be sure that there be will lots and lots of
people choosing that. And who can blame them?

~~~
mg794613
The thing is, they have so many opportunities in the Netherlands. The true
problem is the culture, and I'm not talking about maroccan culture, but
"mocro". This is a culture that developed over 3/4 generations where the
criminal path is the "cool" option. The right basically imported them to do
jobs the dutch felt too good for. Then they were told by the left not to hit
their kids, but weren't told how to raise them instead. All respect for the
father (important in that culture) got lost and the kids ended on the streets,
giving each other a feed back loop to "screw those stupid dutchies". The dutch
also failed in regards of spreading them, which allowed for this culture to
develop.

~~~
mg794613
For example, white or black schools were unthinkable about 20 years ago. It
simply didn't exist because everything was mixed. Nowadays this is a real
thing.

------
tzs
For those like me who never heard the term "supergrass" before, and are even
more confused after Googling and finding out the entire first page of results
are about an English rock band of that name:

> Supergrass is a British slang term for an informant who turns Queen's
> evidence, often in return for protection and immunity from prosecution. In
> the British criminal world, police informants have been called "grasses"
> since the late 1930s, and the "super" prefix was coined by journalists in
> the early 1970s to describe those who witnessed against fellow criminals in
> a series of high-profile mass trials at the time

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergrass_(informant)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergrass_\(informant\))

------
wreet
I like how the conservative BBC, writing from a country whose murder rate is
double that of the Netherlands, is trying to hype up violence Amsterdam
because they don't like drugs. What a bunch of shit.

~~~
brnt
Even so, liquidations are on the up in the Netherlands, and they are almost
always drug-mob related. There's not enough money to patrol the south-Dutch
countryside for illegal production and disposal, which is turning into the
number one environmental issue the country has (apart from climate-related
problems). The Police of Amsterdam had to shutter their major crimes unit for
lack of funding, Dutch Police has some of the worst solving rates in Europe
anyway, liquidations are predominantly in this city and are spilling over into
non-criminal life, lawyers are being killed in the streets, are recusing
themselves every day.

Thing may not be as violent as in Britain, but the country is on course for
it, mainly due to drug related criminal activity. Some newspapers, even the
justice minister recently, theorize that the lack of experience of Police in
dealing with major crime is just not well developed in general, which together
with a generally relaxed attitude and a central and well connected location in
Europe (port of Rotterdam, airport of Amsterdam) make the country an ideal
place to conduct such drug-business in relative quiet.

~~~
rocgf
> lawyers are being killed in the streets

I mean... that happened once.

~~~
brnt
Derk Wiersum, Philippe Schol recently. I lost track of the number of
recusations. The professional club has openend a hotline for judges and
laywers in case of threats (which largely go unreported in the media for
obvious reasons) [1].

This all is unprecedented.

[1] [https://www.advocatenorde.nl/nieuws/contactpunt-
beroepsgroep...](https://www.advocatenorde.nl/nieuws/contactpunt-
beroepsgroepen-ingesteld-voor-advocaten-en-rechters)

~~~
rocgf
I stand somewhat corrected. There was indeed just one lawyer killed in the,
Derk, while Philippe was only shot in the leg.

Either way, this is terrifying and would have never expected this in the
Netherlands.

~~~
brnt
Most liquidations (attempts) are indeed other criminals, so far, but also that
number is rising. A somewhat dated (2016) timeline from Amsterdam newspaper
Het Parool [1].

The scary thing is that the Netherlands basically doesnt have major crimes
units. There a good forensics bureau, which is also under heavy strain [2],
and a small department at the National Police. That makes is trivial for
hardened criminals to stay under the radar: there is (almost) no radar.

[1] [https://www.parool.nl/nieuws/tijdlijn-de-vete-in-de-
marokkaa...](https://www.parool.nl/nieuws/tijdlijn-de-vete-in-de-marokkaans-
amsterdamse-onderwereld~b7ba8f56/) [2]
[https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/07/13/nfi-onderzocht-
wegens-v...](https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/07/13/nfi-onderzocht-wegens-
verdenking-van-misstanden-a1610022)

~~~
rocgf
This saddens me deeply. The Netherlands is my favorite country.

Is this something that concerns people around you? Is it like a major shock to
everybody?

~~~
brnt
Unfortunately, I think a less favorable Dutch trait lies at the root for a
lack of interest in such matters: people believe so strongly this is a nice
and 'civilized' place, most people refuse to even entertain the idea anything
could be seriously out of whack in 'paradise'.

There is a sort of reinforcing feedback loop to preferring to pretend all is
well: to most people things of course are usually well and if everyone thinks
all is well most people will behave well. But if you're one of the unlucky
ones affected by such issues, you'll find it very difficult to convince
people, after all, all is well.

~~~
rocgf
Thank you for the comment. To be fair, the Netherlands is as close to paradise
as I can imagine, as long as the definition of paradise is not one of palm
trees and warm weather.

Even though I am outraged by what is happening, I can't help but feel that
something is happening to tackle this. The Netherlands is a very sane place,
after all, and I'd like to think that whoever can do something about this is
doing something about it.

~~~
brnt
I'm afraid I don't share your optimism. The Ministry of Justice is widely
reported to be in disarray, a fiefdom with warring factions out of control,
all the while neoliberalist governments have been gutting it, as have the
Police (hence the cancellation of the Major Crimes unit in Amsterdam, which
was tiny to begin with) and the prosecutors office, and legal assistance and
general availability of the judiciary to citizens (closure of courthouses).

Things are on course to become worse, at this time. Carefully some people
start to suggest we need Italian-style investments to be able to track,
uncover and handle this level and amount of crime, but we are nowhere near
understanding or funding that. There is just no expertise, and no(t much)
electoral pressure to fund it. Half of our 'sanity' is simply looking away
from problems and hoping they pass of their own accord. That works sometimes,
but here I'm not getting my hopes up.

~~~
rocgf
I am truly heartbroken to hear this. I simply refuse to believe that the
Netherlands will go from heaven on earth to crime ridden due to drugs.

------
moonbug
betteridge

