
How Japan Prepares Its Children for Independence - nkurz
http://savvytokyo.com/japan-prepares-children-independence/
======
jernfrost
This isn't so much the Japanese being weird and different as the American's
being the odd ones.

I am Norwegian, and little of these descriptions would seem odd to me. My kids
go on trips every week with their pre-school, and I have never keep track of
where.

My oldest son has walked to school himself since he has been 6 years old. I
walked to school when I was a kid from 7 (we started school later). And I had
to walk about 30 minutes to get to school crossing many roads.

From early childhood I roamed around all my neighborhood walking into forests
or as I got a bit older I'd go with friends to big abandoned ship yards.

When I later emailed a distant American relative of similar age, I was
confused when she didn't understand why I didn't have a drivers license. She
was like "doesn't your parent's get tired of driving you everywhere?". A
question that made no sense to me until I visited the US. I was of course
going everywhere and I didn't need parents or a car to do that. I could take
the train, bus or subway myself or bike.

In America however it is simply sad how dependent children are on their
parents. Parents take them to every sort of activity and thing they got to do.
In so many American cities you can't have a life without a car. There is
nothing to do without a car.

~~~
zdragnar
As a lifelong resident of a midwestern state in the US, I think it's less a
matter of independence and more a matter of safety and legal issues. I too
made plenty of solo excursions through our rural countryside at a young age.

On the other hand, in major cities, parents are being charged with neglect if
their young children walk a a few blocks up the street to go to a park. Not
everywhere, but such stories crop up in the news every so often.

Another part of the problem is that communities in America aren't (or seem to
not be) quite as tight knit as they once were. There are plenty of
explanations, from cultural shifts, family policy, excessively punitive drug
policy, economic policy, decline of religion, decline of moral values, rise of
the internet and easy access to excessive amounts of televised programming,
cell phones and handheld video games, you name it, and someone has probably
blamed something for it.

~~~
ch4s3
>On the other hand, in major cities

I think you mean in suburbs. I live in New York and see kids alone all the
time. I've even asked a 10 year old for directions.

~~~
krinchan
Definitely agree with this. I grew up rural and was pretty independent by
middle school with a broad network of older friends and friends parents to get
me rides around the county.

I have friends raising kids in inner city areas, both gentrified and not, and
they are all about getting those kids navigating the city blocks around their
homes by eight or nine.

I realize those are anecdotes, but suburbs have been repeatedly indicted for a
lot of the post-Baby Boomer social issues. Thus, I'm hardly surprised. Suburbs
were a massive mistake: fiscally, socially, and environmentally. We're only
_now_ really uncovering the entirety of the negative impacts this sort of
development had on the United States.

~~~
akgerber
Depends on the suburb, too— I grew up in a prewar streetcar suburb where all
the kids walked to school in the 90s (although there weren't really corner
stores that kids went down to for milk or whatever). More 'modern' suburbs are
designed to only be navigable by a car, and getting to most destinations
involves crossing huge deadly arterial roads.

------
unabst
Independence as in independent physically from their parents who may be far
away, but not as in independent psychologically to make responsible, self-
governing decisions based on their own free will.

The former is not that surprising considering how safe Japan is. The latter
however is a known social issue. Oyabanare (leaving the parents) is the term
for independence, and many have a hard time.

Physical independence is a step every toddler takes when they learn to cope
with not having their parents around during day care and such, and in Japan it
simply extends to the commute. Traditionally, the Japanese would not even lock
their doors. The entire community is an extension of their living space, with
lines drawn with respect, not fences or locked doors. So just as you wouldn't
call a child independent for being able to go to the bedroom and back, going
to school and back is the same but farther, with the community acting as a
safety net to ensure these children commute safely. Kobans also help
(community police manning one man police stations that patrol on bicycles).

Psychological independence unfortunately does not extend naturally from the
above. With many young adults being too dependent on their parents and on
instruction, they suffer from the inability to think or act or speak for
themselves. They can commute fine alone. They can be hikikomori fine alone.
They are fine alone. They just are not independent in the western sense. They
are afraid to act on behalf of themselves or enact their identity. So they
also resort to 2chan and anonymous free speech which does not help them gain a
voice.

Westerners are almost too comfortable acting on behalf of themselves. It is
almost a given. And that is also why parents are less inclined to "let them
loose" because "loose" is what they are. They are free thinking and free
acting, hence a long solitary commute only sounds dangerous. But it is this
perception that instills that very quality in their children. The perception
of being on an infinite leash yields physical freedom and distance, but to
confuse this with psychological independence is an egregious mistake.

~~~
nihonde
This doesn't square with my experience as someone who lives in Japan. I know
quite a few young, single mothers who are unbelievably self-sufficient. I also
know a lot of people who are the breadwinners and caretakers of their aging
parents. This whole notion of hikikomori is novel and feeds into the image of
Japan as dystopia, but it's not a good basis for any sweeping statements about
independence in Japan.

A much more interesting point is the dynamic between the primacy of personal
liberty and the group's long-term well being. The West can learn a lot about
how to keep their society viable over millennia if they'd stop drawing half-
baked conclusions like yours and experience the confounding and delicate
balance of paradoxes that has developed over a long time here.

~~~
unabst
Women are different. The moment they become mothers their role changes. It's
more of a switch society flips for them. So single mothers are probably the
most independent and competent of any demographic. Unfortunately high paying
work is hard to come by with both ageism and sexism in the work place.

My conclusions are not half-baked. They are baked into my being. I was raised
by a single mother in Japan, then was fortunate to travel the world. She is
also a professor in anthropology.

"Delicate balance of paradoxes" is half baked. I would be more qualified than
anyone to talk about cultural paradoxes because according to you I'm probably
full of them. But being in Los Angeles now I can say with confidence there are
no paradoxes between cultures or race. We are all just people. Paradoxes only
happen between words, and words do not own us, except, for some people they
do. But that is not a paradox. That is a mere hardship.

~~~
nihonde
I encourage you to spend a lot of time in Japan and keep your mind and eyes
open. You can't see what I'm talking about from LA, especially not through
another person's eyes.

~~~
unabst
I encourage you to revisit what I wrote then. I was raised in Japan. I am
Japanese. I'm not just a westerner making half-baked conclusions based on what
I see outside looking in. I'm a westerner too, and that's what makes my answer
even possible.

If you had something substantial to say, I would love to respond, as I did
with your single mother counter argument, but this open your mind business is
pointless (and also condescending).

------
xenadu02
This is a bit of overblown "look at the crazy foreigners!" Most people don't
raise kids through the same ages in multiple countries so they have no idea
what the real differences are. There is also more variation in the USA.

Here in San Francisco you can go watch little kids doing this exact same thing
every single day. Teachers walking the kids to Golden Gate Park, showing them
how to wait for the WALK sign, look both ways for cars, etc with no parents
around.

It is also extremely common advice to make your kids cleanup after themselves
to learn responsibility. At 18 months they naturally want to help, so you give
them jobs to do and slowly ramp up the complexity.

The only thing unique to Japan (that I got from the article anyway) is that
really young kids walk to school by themselves. Part of this might be urban vs
suburban/rural, I'm not sure. SF doesn't bus kids, and I definitely see
middle-schoolers navigating muni on their own. Not sure how much younger that
goes.

~~~
mattnumbe
It may happen in San Francisco, but it doesn't happen where I'm from. The
reason it's different is because the majority of Japan does this.

~~~
true_religion
All of Japan is smaller than California, with a population 3x as high. It's
much easier to go from "do it one place" to do it everywhere in a country like
that.

~~~
icebraining
You make it sound like it happens by osmosis.

~~~
true_religion
Heh, I didn't mean it like that.

Japan is densely populated and small. Tokyo has the same population as the
entire state of California. A 'grassroots' campaign or a 'try it local first
approach' simply takes into account a staggering amount of people, and all of
these people have relatives that live within 3 hours distance of them, due to
the size of Japan and the speed of transport.

It means that though Japan is largely conservative... if an idea _does_ take
root, it can quickly spread everywhere.

In the US, you get enclaves. California says X. Texas says Y. New York says Z.
And there's 1500 miles between each of these major population zones, meaning
that activists and politicians in one zone simply aren't active in another.

~~~
vram22
> Tokyo has the same population as the entire state of California

Felt surprised by that and looked it up in Google. For the Greater Tokyo vs.
California population, it seems true.

------
hasenj
When I was a kid in Iraq (1990~) going to school by yourself was very natural.
Our school was nearby so we walked every day. Other kids took the bus.

The only thing amusing in the article is how Americans are amused by this.

I remember on my first day to school my mom took me there, but she didn't come
to take me home. I was one of the few kids that cried because my mom wasn't
there. Later, I felt embarrassed by that.

Our school organized some kind of a school trip about once or twice a year. I
was the odd kid whose parents would not let him go on the trip. For everyone
else, it was a natural part of school that they looked forward to.

Needless to say, the parents do no join the kids for the trip.

~~~
77pt77
> When I was a kid in Iraq (1990~) going to school by yourself was very
> natural. Our school was nearby so we walked every day.

I don't think you understand.

I walked to school also, from age 7 or so.

Japan is different in that many of these children take public transportation
in places likes Tokyo and that they do this very very young.

On top of that it's not uncommon for parents to send their children on errands
also alone. We're talking large densely populated metropolis.

This is something very peculiar to Japan (I'm not saying unique) and I suppose
very different from your experience.

~~~
icebraining
Per the article, only 1.7% of schoolchildren take the bus, the vast majority
walk, like many of us did.

~~~
77pt77
Bus usage is negligible in large cities.

They take the trains/subway.

~~~
newhere420
When you refer to large cities, are you referring exclusively to Japanese
cities? In Europe, buses are an integral part of the transport network in many
major cities.

~~~
77pt77
Yes, only Japan.

The train usually reigns supreme.

------
vijucat
On the other hand, there's this claim:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Dependence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Dependence)

"The person who is carrying out amae may beg or plead, or alternatively act
selfishly while secure in the knowledge that the caregiver will indulge him.
The behavior of children towards their parents is perhaps the most common
example of amae, but Doi argued that child-rearing practices in the Western
world seek to stop this kind of dependence, whereas in Japan it persists into
adulthood in all kinds of social relationships."

Interesting discussion on amae ("English equivalent of “amae” (甘え) - the
feeling of pleasurable dependence on another person") in the Q & A here:
[http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/236808/english-
eq...](http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/236808/english-equivalent-
of-amae-%E7%94%98%E3%81%88-the-feeling-of-pleasurable-dependence-on-ano)

~~~
triplesec
And here we find a concept related to traditional gender models with the
'strong' man and dependent woman, sub-dom relationships and other such
constructs. Helps us see why many people still hold onto tradition.

------
77pt77
Children in Japan going about their lives with no adult supervision (usually
in small groups) is one of cutest things I've seen.

That this happens in places like Tokyo and Osaka is even more impressive given
the size of those cities.

A large part of that is made possible by community support. If something goes
wrong there's usually an adult nearby ready to help.

~~~
sjm
Totally agree. Japan is also incredibly safe. I've just spent a couple months
there (now in Seoul), and you get the sense that people really trust each
other there. It's not uncommon to see people leave their bags, phones,
wallets, etc. just lying around in a cafe; bikes unlocked everywhere. It's a
really calm place to be in that sense.

I've been doing the "digital nomad" thing and jumping around a lot of
countries — Japan was very different in this aspect to pretty much everywhere
else I've been.

~~~
radicsge
I had left my Nikon camera in a shop, when I've realized and ran back, a shop
associate was trying to knot it to a chair she just put outside of the shop
(so it can be seen). It was amazing! \--- Other story I had in Japan. That I
lost direction in Kyoto and had no money since all ATM is closed (at night).At
some point somebody just stopped his bike and asked where i go. When I told
him, he said that I should wait a bit, he will pick up his car and bring me
there (in the middle of the night!) .. and so he did.

No place like japan (or at least very few)!

~~~
sjm
More than one person I met in Japan told me a story of someone accidentally
leaving their wallet on the seat of a train, only for another passenger to
chase after them to hand it to them as they left.

~~~
mjevans
I think people are afraid to do this in the US because they will be suspected
of pick-pocketing it or some other form of liability.

~~~
jandrese
This doesn't make any sense. If you run to return a dropped phone/wallet to
someone they don't accuse you of pickpocketing them. Not unless you maybe
drained the wallet of cash first.

I've handed people stuff they've dropped many times and usually get a polite
thank you for the effort. The idea that they would be hostile to you is just
crazy.

------
Pietertje
The Dutch have a similar approach albeit at a bit older age. During my last
visit to the US I was really astonished when my colleague told me he was
driving his kids (12-15 years old) everywhere anytime and that this was
common.

One of the best moments of my childhood were those in which you could stroll
around the city in full freedom.

I still don't fully get the protective attitude of US parenting. I wonder if
it has to do with crime stats being higher.

~~~
mysterypie
> I wonder if it has to do with crime stats being higher.

Yes, crime is higher in the US than in the Netherlands, but that cannot be the
explanation. Because crime is the US is _much_ lower than it was three decades
ago when children did walk to school.

~~~
nibnib
There could be some lag involved. The children of 3 decades ago are now having
their own children and are deciding their freedoms. I _think_ crime was lower
in the US 6 decades ago than 3, so each generation may be reacting slowly to a
perceived level of danger.

~~~
eitally
I think one of the issues now is that there are many more homes with two
working parents. It was one thing 30 years ago to let your kids walk to
school, wander around the neighborhood, or whatever, if a parent was at home.
But without that safety net, I can see why it's a psychologically challenging
attitude for parents. (besides the whole media focus on crime exacerbating
things).

(I was born in 1977 and walked or rode my bike to school until 4th grade, when
I switched schools. I also had a mom who's rule was "go outside and play. come
in for dinner when the street lights turn on." I think this was common across
the US until the '90s, especially outside of major metros.

------
heisenbit
The article describes how Japanese children are socialized. They are taught to
become independent off their parents at an early age. They learn to rely on
they local social network.

We in the west understand may independence differently. With our western eyes
we seen transfer of dependence on family to social community not as we would
expect more becoming an individual.

There are few cultures like the Japanese that have such close social links to
their peers at adult age. These differences seem to be cultured at an early
age.

Helicopter parenting is certainly damaging in the long run. The Japanese
approach also has some long term implications. It is worth looking at other
alternatives too. In the end we are responsible for our choices.

------
mamcx
I start doing some grocery buys as 7/8 years old and go to school alone at the
same age.

In medellin.

In the 90s.

Towards schools with some gang members.

Where some shootings happened (outside!).

And get mugged a few times.

After bombings 7 blocks away home.

And get to the school alone next day.

Equal as elsewhere. Now here are copying some of the unfortunate aspects of
the US culture and some of my younger cousins have not idea how navigate the
city alone.

Despite to be very shy and introvert, I'm certain I can get lost anywhere and
find my way back home! \---

By the way, bullying was very uncommon, despite being the most nerd there. Now
is epidemic. When kid looking at US movies I wonder when we will start to copy
it.

------
artpepper
My daughter's preschool [American] went on several field trips, it's not that
weird. And her first "solo day of class" was sooner than a month in.

I walked to school by myself in NYC. Now I live in the suburbs, and I see
plenty of kids walking themselves to school in my neighborhood. But a lot of
it depends on how far away you live and the route.

Basically, I don't worry about my daughter's ability to find her way to
school, I worry about her getting run down by some idiot in an SUV.

~~~
raarts
You mean some other kid that learned to drive before learning to drink.

------
greggman
For young kids this is awesome but Japanese young adults are not nearly as
independent as western kids. It is far from uncommon for 20 somethibugs to
choose to live at home even into the their 30s. Where does the system fail
from this great stuff as 3-6 year olds vs the 18-30 year olds?

~~~
brandelune
It does not fail. It's the expected outcome. Young people don't get "legal"
independence until they get married. By "legal" independence I mean they don't
have a personal register (koseki) until they have to leave the family
register, which can basically only happen by marrying.

Besides, leaving at one's parents is not equal to be dependent, it is
economically sound and young people who have entered the work force may live
in the same place as their parents but few share much more than that.

~~~
mattnumbe
I type too slow...

------
fhood
I want to make two points.

First: People on this website tend not to have grown up poor, but let me
assure you that that demographic of Americans has no problem with
independence. My friend has had a job since he was twelve, and until he moved
out (at 18) he had to pay his share of the household bills. And he has bad
credit because when they needed money his mom borrowed money in his name.

Second: Im a college student, so I see a lot of people floundering with new
found independence. First people who grew up poorer can, in general, cook,
clean and shop properly. Of those that grew up in wealthier families, the
"only" children are the ones that tend to struggle at first.

In the end though, most of them figure it out. Large universities are pretty
good at fostering independence. Primarily because they don't really care about
their students. Either you figure it out or flunk out. I know that anecdotes
of peoples parents coming with them to interviews are common, but I don't know
a single person who has had this particular indignity inflicted on them. In
general I think that adults in the United States are fairly good at being
independent from their parents and American Universities have helped with
this. I also know that Asian, and Japanese universities have a reputation for
coddling their students, to the point that American professors are wary of
taking them on as grad students (not to say that some of them aren't fantastic
students because they are).

I also know that Japanese parents are far more likely to support their
children financially into their adulthoods than American parents are. So while
I agree with many of the sentiments here I want to point out that Americans do
force their children to be independent. They just wait until they are 18-25.

------
joesmo
I find it ironic that in America, where child rearing is the epitome of life
in mainstream culture, parents are so awful at it, especially at instilling
independence and freedom, something we claim to value more than anything. This
article is only interesting in comparison with our failed parenting. In
comparison to many other cultures, it's pretty mundane and similar.

~~~
artpepper
> parents are so awful at it

That's a really sweeping statement. In reference to this particular article,
there may be a lot of reasons why fewer American children travel to school by
themselves, including geography and transportation options.

~~~
joesmo
That's pretty irrelevant. I base my assessment of the horrific parenting in
this country on our poor and still falling educational achievements and the
censorship houses our universities have turned into. I understand that the law
enforces such poor parenting practices by throwing parents in jail, placing
children in foster care, etc., but that's still no excuse.

------
Animats
There's a TV show about this in Japan: "My First Errand". Hidden cameras
follow kids as they go on their first errand alone. It's cute.

~~~
mafribe
The show is called "Hajimete no Otsukai", see [1] for an example. Citylab had
a text about it last year [2].

[1]
[http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkae7e_toshijima_webcam](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkae7e_toshijima_webcam)

[2] [http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/09/why-are-little-
kids-i...](http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/09/why-are-little-kids-in-
japan-so-independent/407590/?utm_source=atlfb)

------
nicolas_t
I've always found Japanese kindergarten elementary school education to be
quite good. They encourage children to be independent, they have children
clean the school to teach responsibility (most schools do not have janitors on
staff), they often have student councils where the students determine some of
the rules and how they are enforced.

However, the education after that is too focused on rote memory, multiple
choice tests and not enough on critical thinking. This, I believe, is what
creates a lot of problems today with Japanese young adults. If I had a kid,
I'd send her to a Japanese school until around 8-9 years old and then switch
to an international school.

------
edblarney
It's difficult to separate this issue from the vastly civilized cultural
context of Japan.

Kids can take the bus because there is a near zero chance that someone will do
something bad to them. If they are lost, they are surrounded by people who
will help them.

North American urban areas are not quite like this ...

Also, the simply geographic issues of housing/roads and large distances
between things is a pretty big factor.

No guns, homogenous society, extremely well behaved people ...

American leftists and rightists would each find something to 'freak out' about
were America to try to recreate the kind of civility they have there ...

------
randomgyatwork
In Japan I noticed that the public washrooms were always so clean, magnitudes
cleaner than anything in Canada.

My wife told me at school that all the students take turns cleaning the
bathroom, this meant if you made a mass you'd eventually have to clean it up.
The idea seems to be that by keeping it clean you avoid having to clean up
someone else's mess later, seems to encourage doing the right thing.

------
ericmo
I'm a Sansei in Brazil, which essentially means most people think I'm Japanese
while the Japanese think I'm not, so I've peeked both sides and I can tell you
this: yes, childhood in Japan can be amazing, but certainly Japanese culture
in general isn't about independence, it's actually quite the opposite, it's
about order and individuals adhering to his/her role in this order. "Do as
your parents said, get into college, respect your boss." It's even kind of
bittersweet that childhood in Japan is so good, because you'll grow up knowing
what you've lost. On the other hand, it's also not all smell of flowers,
because children being independent also means that if mom isn't home, you have
to be the responsible sibling, it could be a form to shorten childhood.

------
Artoemius
I don't know. The Japanese are usually known for their dependence on the
society and social norms. In the corporate world, they find it normal to work
overtime without pay, never take vacations longer than several days at a time,
and they seem to find it hard to disagree with their bosses. That's not what I
would call a culture of independence.

------
readhn
When I was little my mom would give me a few coins and send me to the store
with a milk jug to get some milk and bread. A couple of times Every week. They
would also give me a garbage bag to take out on my way there( dumpster was a
few blocks away). I was not that small, may be 9 or 10. This was not in USA.
Today I live 10000 miles from home on another continent speaking another
language... Are these connected? Who knows. Was it dangerous? Who knows. My
kids for sure will not be helicoptered over...

------
dnautics
I used to spend summers in Japan to get an extra two months of schooling as
American schools were out... Walking to school at age six was a daily
activity. Summers in Okinawa regularly reach 30C or higher; and the particular
town I was in was mostly agricultural gravel roads between home and school.
The process wasn't completed alone; I typically grouped together with four or
five cousins that lived nearby and we all walked the ~2km together.

------
ekianjo
In terms of outcome, pretty badly judging by the lack of initiative of all new
hires in japanese companies.

~~~
brandelune
The problem is not that they lack initiative, it is that initiative is not
expected from them.

~~~
mattnumbe
I also think the initiative is there, it's just the mundane tasks that most
are required to do.

------
aidenn0
Whereas my kids' school is 4 miles away with no bus service offered.

------
known
Japan is a homogeneous society;

"Diversity society will fail" \--Putnam;
[http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/t...](http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/)

~~~
77pt77
Diversity is like salt in food.

You want a bit to make things tasty and healthy, but too much is actually bad
for you.

~~~
icebraining
Analogies can be well used, but here all you said is "I prefer to have just a
bit of diversity" in a pseudo-explanatory way.

~~~
77pt77
Nowhere in that comment did I ever state my preference.

~~~
raarts
No you didn't, but I find it hard to believe you would opt for a lot of
diversity, given that you state it would be bad.

------
joggery
What will the effect of self-driving cars be on children's independence?

------
shirro
So how do they prepare them to be hikikomori?

~~~
77pt77
You are a bit too caustic and the downvotes are probably due to that but the
question stands.

What the hell happens between age 5 and say 20 that justifies that social
problem?

~~~
namaemuta
I'm not a Japanese but I would say that the social expectations are too high:
at X age you should be working for a company, at Y you should be married, at Z
age you should own a house... some people can't handle that pressure,
specially if something has gone wrong.

There's a webcomic called Re:Life in which this is shown.

------
LeonidBugaev
While it is impressive, do not forget that everything that happens in
childhood, projects to your adult life, and not always in a good way.

Japan have so many problems right now: a lot of people with sociopathy,
problems with demographics and so on.

While Japan has a unique approach, who knows, maybe lack of supervising and
attention at such young age cause such issues.

In my view, Japan is the edge case, and there should be the more balanced
approach.

~~~
77pt77
> a lot of people with sociopathy

really?

Depressed, withdrawn, neurotic maybe, but sociopathic?!

~~~
hx87
OP is probably using the term (very, _very_ wrongly) as a catch-all for
psychological problems.

