
USB-C is still a mess - vo2maxer
https://www.androidauthority.com/state-of-usb-c-870996/
======
itsspring
Heh, just this week I was struggling to get a device to work with my laptop,
until after 90+ minutes I realized there were different types of USB-C, and
the one I had (the Apple charger cable) only did charging.

I needed one that transmitted video, so I then went to order a $10 USB-C, only
to realize those also only did charging. Finally found what I needed, but I
thought USB-C was finally "universal", but turns out much of that is just
marketing...

Edit: Turns out the one I just bought ($40 USB-C Apple thunderbolt cable)
doesn't even fit into the device because the edges are too thick. Ridiculous

~~~
sackofmugs
That's strange, I've never encountered a usb-c cable that did not support data
at all. My understanding (and the article suggests) that charging and data are
fine in general, but just not as fast as the device can support. Basically
they will charge or transfer data at regular usb or micro-usb speeds.

~~~
trav4225
I definitely have encountered this. One was even a device intended for
development via USB. For some strange reason, the USB-C cable shipped with the
product only supported power, requiring the customer to buy another cable for
data transfer.

~~~
sackofmugs
Just to clarify, are you talking about a usb-c to usb-a cable, or a usb-c to
usb-c cable? I think the usb-c to usb-a cables are just temporary while we get
to usb-c everything, and so are not implemented that well. With usb-c to usb-c
cables, I've never had a problem with power or charging.

~~~
ender341341
nope, there are plenty of power only usb-c to usb-c cables.

Even more fun, many of them don't properly list what power they can handle and
fry your device or catch fire if you put to much through them!

~~~
Dylan16807
> Even more fun, many of them don't properly list what power they can handle
> and fry your device or catch fire if you put to much through them!

That doesn't make sense. Any cable will be capable of many more volts than USB
will ever put through it. How is anything going to get fried?

I suppose a cable could get too warm, but lying about capacity only takes you
from 3 to 5 amps. That little bit extra should never be enough to cause a
fire. And if it can't even handle 3, then the problem was not that it was
lying about capacity. It also costs extra money to lie about being a 5 amp
cable since that requires a chip.

~~~
AdrianB1
Volts don't melt power cables, amps do. Regular cables do 2.5 to 3A, the 5A
cables are relatively rare and more expensive.

~~~
Dylan16807
Yes, I know.

I mentioned volts for frying, and I mentioned amps for fire.

And I don't think either failure can be caused by a cable failing to properly
list what it can handle. Do you?

~~~
ender341341
It's crappy devices all around trying to implement an _insanely_ complex spec.

The Nintendo Switch can get fried in dock mode (and Nintendo usually has
pretty top notch QA/abuse testing outside of joysticks)

Here's a report of an A to C cable on fire from Anker (another pretty well
regarded manufacturer)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/7j3k38/anker_usbc_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/7j3k38/anker_usbc_cable_warning_wife_woke_up_to_a/)

~~~
Dylan16807
Are you talking about the thing where sending 9 volts on a _data_ pin fries
the switch? I don't blame the spec or Nintendo for that one.

That cable is more of a complexity problem, but it wasn't because it
misrepresented capabilities or anything. They put in a chip which didn't reset
the connection when you unplugged one end. I don't know if that's really a
spec problem, though.

------
nickm12
A while back I went down the USB-C charging rabbit hole with the simple goal
of finding a 3rd party charger that could charge all my USB-C devices (13"
Macbook, Motorola phone, Nintendo Switch) as fast as the charger that came in
the box.

I found it tremendously difficult to make a purchase decision; the device
manufacturers and 3rd party vendors provide very little information and
everyone wants their own trademark: USB-PD, Quick Charge, PowerIQ, iSmart,
VoltIQ, Turbopower... it just goes on and on.

However, I decided to hope for the best and get some well-reviewed USB-PD
chargers and bought the following two chargers:

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PLR7T1M/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PLR7T1M/)
(RAVPower 61w wall charger)
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075WQQG7C/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075WQQG7C/)
(Necktek 45w auto charger)

They work out really well and met my requirements, with the exception that the
Necktek doesn't provide the full 60 watts the Macbook can use, but I knew that
was the case.

~~~
beefalo
Why not just use the MacBook charger for everything? I've had no issues using
a variety of MacBook usb-c chargers for lots of devices.

~~~
extra88
The RAVPower is 50% smaller than a 13-inch MacBook Pro's AC adapter while
providing the same wattage. Also, the RAVPower has two ports, a USB-C and a
USB Type A so you can charge two devices at a time.

The RAVPower is also cheaper than buying a 2nd Apple AC adapter when you want
to leave an adapter at your desk and have a 2nd one in your bag to use
elsewhere.

------
code-faster
There has to be a post-mortem on this.

My take is that the standard is too lenient and the cables aren't color coded.

Lenient standards mean that "usb-c" could support 1W or 10W and your phone
plays footsy to figure out how high it can go. Pick a standard, pick a level,
don't exceed the standard even if you can.

Color coding? Yup. Colors. A human must be able to visually determine what
specs a cable matches and doesn't match. Before, different standards had
different ports, so color didn't matter. But usb c wants to be the same port
for multiple standards. Fine. Color code it. It can even be a small dot by the
plug, as long as it doesn't wear off.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Color coding? Yup. Colors. A human must be able to visually determine what
> specs a cable matches and doesn't match.

Shapes (of, e.g., logos) are much better than colors as a universal label for
this, though colors as an additional market are fine. Colors alone are a
problem because of common defects of color perception.

~~~
code-faster
yeah a 2d logo on the connector or a cable pattern is better, good call.

~~~
mordechai9000
How about keyed connectors and sockets? Why have incompatible cables with
identical form factors?

~~~
chongli
We’re talking about a standard that was invented primarily for laptops. That
is, it was invented to replace the wide variety of single purpose ports with a
few universal ones. Keying the connectors defeats that purpose since you now
need different ports again.

I know people love to complain endlessly about Apple taking away all of the
single purpose ports on MacBooks and replacing them with USB-C. The problem
the article is describing is a problem of counterfeit and mislabeled or
unlabeled cables as well as improperly designed devices. For most users this
isn't a problem and the ability to charge the laptop and plug in any device in
any port is very convenient.

~~~
Beldin
In theory, that would be convenient. In practice, you get stuff like this:

[https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-
find...](https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find-cause-
of-high-kernel-task-cpu-usage/363933)

TL;DR: if your mac has high cpu load, try using the other side port for
charging.

Note that this is irrespective of the mess the article talks about, which just
exacerbates the problem.

In USB-C land, some (Endpoint-to-endpoint) connections are definitely a lot
more equal than others.

------
sackofmugs
This article misses the biggest issue with usb-c cables, which a lot of people
don't even realize. A lot of cheaper devices can only be charged with a usb-c
to usb-a cable, and not a regular usb-c to usb-c cable (C2C). Basically, they
don't support C2C but people don't test or check this until they travel and
realize the cable they brought doesn't work on these devices.

The cause is that the devices themselves are incorrectly implemented. This
ranges from toothbrushes, to flashlights (where 99% of usb-c flashlights can't
do C2C), to shavers, and small electronics/appliances. The problem is there
isn't a standard way to know about this (or a name for this problem), so it's
hard to tell what supports it or not. Generally, devices made by well known
brands support C2C, but not cheaper Chinese-made devices, but there are
exceptions in both cases.

~~~
Ductapemaster
My Sony noise cancelling headphones (WH-1000XM3) will only charge with an A2C
cable, and not with a C2C cable. I had to purchase an extra charging cable in
case I lost the one that came with it, despite owning multiple C2C cables
already that _should_ work fine.

If you're not going to make it compatible, why even put a USB-C port on it in
the first place?

~~~
izacus
I've charged my 1000XM3s with:

\- MacBook charger (USB-C / USB-C)

\- Samsung phone charger (USB-C / USB-A)

\- MacBook Thunderbolt dock cable (USB-C / USB-C)

\- Dell XPS 13 charger (USB-C to Power)

\- Razer Blade Stealth 13 charger (USB-C to Power)

\- Anker Powerbank (USB-C to USB-C)

and some others. They all worked.

And this list pretty much shows why USB-C is so amazing even if it might
confuse some people on the edges. I don't need to lug around a bunch of
proprietary chargers and cables.

~~~
Ductapemaster
Woah, this is complete news to me! I have tried with my Macbook chargers (90W
and 60W), an Apple USB-C cable, and an Anker USB-C cable and _nothing_ will
charge them. They are running the latest firmware too. The only thing that
works is the original A-to-C cable, and a cheap one on Amazon that I bought as
a backup....

Guess I need to do some more testing — thank you!!

------
TulliusCicero
It’s a mess, but one that’s still an improvement on what came before.

I can now charge my phone, laptop, gaming system, VR headset, and USB battery
pack with the same cable. Sooooo much nicer for trips.

~~~
ed25519FUUU
Agree it’s a mess. I also agree it’s a big improvement. I plug in usb c to my
monitor, and I get Ethernet, display, usb, and power. That’s all I ever wanted
and I don’t think about it anymore.

------
stblack
I think the world needs a gizmo with two USB-C terminals, one for each end of
a USB-C cable, and LEDs that light for each feature supported by the cable.

For data, there could be a range of LED to display the throughput of the
cable.

Because honestly, I have some cables and no idea what some of them can and
cannot do.

~~~
kalleboo
I have seen a couple of those, but nothing very user-friendly. E.g.
[https://bit-trade-one.co.jp/adusbcim/](https://bit-trade-one.co.jp/adusbcim/)

~~~
stblack
That's brilliant. Thank you! I would have never found that :-)

I wonder if software could do it, using two free ports on my laptop, a MacBook
Pro.

------
twarge
USB-C is a great system. Power delivery is incredible and works really well.

Having different capabilities in host, device, and cable is, of course,
completely natural. I wouldn't want all my cables to be thick and expensive
thunderbolt cables.

~~~
monadic2
Thick? I never would have even thought to complain about them. Sure you’re not
thinking of firewire? Also doesn’t thunderbolt literally use the same form as
usb-c these days?

Edit: yup, thunderbolt 3 uses usb-c connectors.

~~~
the_pwner224
Thunderbolt cables are super thick. And short too.

With my laptop I had a USB-C dock and then upgraded to a TB dock to get 4k
video out. The USB-C cable was decently thick and about 1.5 meters. The TB
cable was about 0.5 meters long and super thick. Apparently the length is
based on physical constraints with transmitting data at very high rates. And
obviously the more individual wires you have in the cable, the thicker it is.
And you need extra layers of shielding etc.

~~~
mciancia
FYI, you can easily buy 2m tb3 cables

~~~
izacus
Yeah, they just cost like 70$+ and are rather thick which makes them very
sensitive for any kind of carrying around. Regularly breaking a 70$ cable in a
bag isn't very affordable :/

~~~
monadic2
My last thunderbolt cable (something like 20 cm long) cost about ~$15 fwiw,
had to buy one to get my e-gpu to work with my laptop.

To be fair I completely didn't get the thickness was discussing the cable
itself, which I TBH don't even notice.

------
bsder
USB-C on a USB device(UFP-only) system is _wonderful_. It's quite simple--two
resistors--that gets you 5V at 900mA and USB 2.0 High Speed (480Mbps). Or, if
you'd like 5V at 1.5A or 3.0A--you generally need a very small and simple chip
to handle the CC monitoring.

That's it.

The problem starts occurring when people want to do a _zillion_ things on the
port--charge their phone, charge a device, communicate with a device, serve as
a device, transfer at Gbps rates, etc.

Remember OTG--oh, yeah, nobody does _because it worked like crap_. USB-C
_actually_ did what OTG was trying to do.

And, the problem mostly isn't USB-C, it's manufacturers:

> All the new port has done is push some components out of the laptop and onto
> the other end of the cable.

Exactly. And it's the reason I _STILL_ can't get a useful USB-C hub.

Samsung could have avoided the problem with PPS with <$10 of components,
instead they pushed those out. Samsung doesn't even supply the "good" charger
by default with their device. Don't complain about USB-C because the
manufacturers are doing weird things with it to cheapen their bill of
materials.

> USB-C audio is basically dead as Bluetooth takes over.

Until latency matters. Then suddenly Bluetooth is a pile of suck. If you're
watching a video (the device can delay the video to match latency) or
listening to music, fine.

If you're watching something live or you are filming something live, then the
latency is _maddening_.

And that doesn't even start to deal with people who want some sort of audio
_app_. There is a reason why "rhythm" games simply _don 't exist_ on mobile.

~~~
fragmede
OTG worked well enough, when I was able to get the right cable (or device -
there are some USB flash drives with micro-USB ports that lean on USB OTG to
work).

USB-C docking stations are finally hitting the market. They're pricey, but
there are some with multiple USB-A ports, USB-C ports (including data), HDMI,
DisplayPort, Gig Ethernet, and 3.5mm audio jacks. There are also finally
Thunderbolt docks which have thunderbolt ports that connect via USB-C. (They
are even more expensive though.)

 _> There is a reason why "rhythm" games simply don't exist on mobile._

Rhythm games' heyday aka DDR and Guitar Hero may have passed, but there are
plenty. [https://my-best.net/16982](https://my-best.net/16982) There are tons
of mobile audio apps as well. Korg has a bunch of them.
[https://www.korg.com/us/products/software/](https://www.korg.com/us/products/software/)

~~~
bsder
> Korg has a bunch of them.
> [https://www.korg.com/us/products/software/](https://www.korg.com/us/products/software/)

No Android and no bluetooth for _exactly_ the reason I mention.

Korg actually has a DAW-lite for the _Nintendo Switch_ but not Android
_precisely_ because you can manage audio latency on the Switch but can't on
Android.

------
gurumeditations
USB-C should’ve been the premium cable- high power charging and fast data
transfer guaranteed. USB-A should’ve been used as the cheap cable for simple
connectivity and lower power charging. Devices would naturally sort themselves
out over time depending on their price bracket and the volume savings over
time of USB-C production.

Instead, the Forum destroyed the entire purpose of USB-C from the getgo by
allowing the “universal” cable to be disintegrated for cost-cutting purposes.
Now it’s no longer universal. How were they this dumb?

~~~
mjevans
I half agree.

USB-C should have had clear marking standards for TWO cables (at
introduction).

CHEEP, Dirt cheep, USB 2.0 baseline, minimal PD (compat with the best USB 2.0
ports) plain cable.

Full Feature, USB-C premium (with a single color band and trademarked logo in
color signifying a 'tested run' of product).

Newer versions should have then embellished on that logo.

------
viraptor
So this is something I don't get about cable production. Why are companies
selling cheap cables with just some wires connected, but not slightly more
expensive ones with all wires? For example if there's a $10 charging-only
cable, why isn't there a $15 fully-connected one - instead you have to go with
more expensive brand usually at let's say $40+.

Most of the cable is already there, production is happening, distribution is
happening... so why is it not used for more products?

~~~
ajross
Firstly because there's no market for it. The bulk of all USB-C devices out
there are _never connected to anything but a charger_. Ever. When was the last
time you cabled your phone to a PC or a USB client device? It works, sure. But
statistically, no one does it anymore. So the market for "slightly more
expensive everything connected" cables is tiny compared to the market for
cables we actually want.

Secondly because the product sucks. A USB1/2 cable had four conductors. A
proper USB-C cable requires NINE (with significantly higher signal quality
requirements on the USB-3 data line to boot). They are thicker, stiffer,
harder to connect, harder to stuff into a purse, and generally a pain to work
with compared with the charging cables we actually want.

The root cause is this: USB3 was, in hindsight, a mistake. They squished a
completely new electronic bus into an old connector for no good reason. USB-C
compounded that mistake by defining a superset connector that does "Everything
A USB Device Has Every Been Asked To Do", and then selling itself into a
market (phones) where no one wanted that junk.

And this is the result.

------
epmaybe
If it bothers you that USB-C is still a mess, but want USB-C to succeed, I
suggest putting your money where your mouth is and only support manufacturers
that follow the rules?

~~~
macintux
Good luck figuring out who follows the rules.

~~~
epmaybe
There's no shortage of reviews for products that confirm or deny spec
compliance. If you can't find it easily, maybe it's worth waiting to purchase
that product..

~~~
barrkel
Reviews generally just say "works for me" or "didn't work for me" and you have
no idea if the problem was at one end of the cable or the other, or the cable,
or the reviewer.

------
izacus
I think these articles usually ignore the fact that in most cases USB-C is a
strict improvement over previous state of having a bunch of proprietary ports
with proprietary cables and chargers.

When it fails, even in most cases, it fails in a way that you still get some
result - your device still charges, your data still transfers. More slowly,
but it still works even if you need to grab a suboptimal cable.

In all the other cases, you're pretty much in the same (or better) situation
as you'd be with specialized proprietary port - you need a special cable (e.g.
Thunderbolt 3 for fast transfers or 4k@60Hz image) which then ends up being
compatible with slower and less capable devices anyway.

------
RajSinghLA
Messier yet is iPad Pro using USB-C while iPhone 11 Pro ships with a lightning
cable that's USB-C on the other end!

~~~
frosted-flakes
So what happens when you connect the two together? Can you charge the iphone
from the ipad, or transfer files?

~~~
ncw96
I don’t believe you can transfer files, but you can definitely charge an
iPhone with an iPad if you use a USB-C to Lightning cable.

~~~
jleahy
But how do you charge an iPad using an iPhone?

~~~
beefalo
Some older usb-c devices would start charging based on order of plugging in.
i.e. plug the phone side in first and the phone will start charging your iPad.
Seems the defaults are smarter now and phones always prefer to receive power.

------
davidgerard
eh, USB-C is a mess, but it's got a messy problem.

I've found it to be a solid improvement. I would still be delighted to swap my
thicket of USB cables, and a bizarre assortment of sockets over the past
fifteen years, for a world of USB-A and USB-C.

~~~
the_pwner224
There were only ever 4 sockets. Rectangular USB-A for host devices and the
weird modified square/rectangle for client devices (printers, docks). Micro-
USB for tiny client devices, which pretty much completely replaced mini-USB.

One of the factors in the USB-C switch was that what were traditionally client
devices, like phones, could now also be hosts. So now USB-C devices need
resistors connected to a CC line to identify as host (power source) or client
(power sink).

Also, there were good reasons for having multiple sockets. USB-C might be
rated for 10k or whatever insertions, but it is quite a bit weaker than USB-A.
The ports wear out and are not as resistant to stress since they are smaller
and shorter. I'm pretty sure the USB-C port on my laptop died from just
plugging & unplugging a dock for 2 years. Even if it wasn't completely dead,
it no longer makes a secure connection. Of course USB-A wears out too, but not
as much.

~~~
Mindless2112
There were 10 receptacles/9 plugs[1] before USB-C. Of those 19 total, the only
ones I've never seen in the wild are the USB Mini-A receptacle and the USB
Micro-AB receptacle.

Receptacles: USB A, USB 3.0 A SS, USB B, USB 3.0 B SS, USB Mini-A, USB Mini-
AB, USB Mini-B, USB Micro-AB, USB Micro-B, USB 3.0 Micro-B SS

Plugs: USB A, USB 3.0 A SS, USB B, USB 3.0 B SS, USB Mini-A, USB Mini-B, USB
Micro-A, USB Micro-B, USB 3.0 Micro-B

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#Host_and_device_i...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#Host_and_device_interface_receptacles)

~~~
the_pwner224
By there were only ever four sockets, I meant in practical terms, not
theoretically. Also, Samsung (and a very small number of other androids) had
micro USB 3 for a year or two, but it worked with normal micro USB cables and
they went back to micro USB shortly afterwards.

------
rsoto
When I've thought about connecting all my devices (laptop, cellphone, Nintendo
Switch) and then researching a bit about it, I've deleted that thought out of
fear.

USB-C is a total mess, I might burn my phone if the voltage is higher than
required. The only thing I know is that my laptop won't be affected because
I've plugged it into the phone charger just a couple of times by mistake.

Also, beware of the Nintendo Switch, it seems that the charger spec was
modified a bit by Nintendo and you might damage your console if the original
parts aren't used.

~~~
asciident
Nothing personal against you, but I think you're going off misleading
information. It's not helpful to say "I'm afraid [blah] might happen" when
[blah] is simply not happening in any real way, as much as plugging a kitchen
appliance into an electrical socket might cause it to explode.

If you do a bit more research, you'll find the problem is basically gone, and
you're talking about a very specific situation that required multiple
manufacturer errors.

------
LockAndLol
Looks like the good ol' EU has to step in again and tell Apple, Huawei, Google
and co to stop their bullshit, just like they did before mini-USB was forced
to become the norm.

------
foobaw
The author is saying linear regulators are better for high current which is
questionable. He even references huawei but Huawei chargers don't even use
linears. One Plus makes sense because their warp charge is ridiculous, they're
doing 5V/6A which isnt even possible using USB PD protocol and theyre using a
type a to c cable so clearly doing something proprietary there.

If i had to guess why oneplus can't step down higher voltages, it's probably
specifically designed for 5V so it only supports the 5V/3A usb PD profile
(hence the ~15W with a PD charger). No clue why they didn't allow 5V/5A for
25W over USB PD since that is possible. I don't think the author mentions
anywhere in his article which 60W usb PD charger was used, so its hard to say
that it is a valid test. 60W normally indicates 20V/3A, so it's possible the
charger could not provide 5V/5A if the oneplus 8 pro did support that.

Anyway, huawei's own PD charger can charge faster over the PD protocol than
this guys "60W PD Charger" according to
[https://www.firstxw.com/view/230511.html](https://www.firstxw.com/view/230511.html).

------
akvadrako
I think USB4 will fix some of this confusion because it will require
Thunderbolt cables, which do everything.

Hopefully they require some sort of labeling to identify them.

------
dzhiurgis
There's an excellent sub for usb-c hardware:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/)

------
staycoolboy
Is power charging speed a parameter in the spec? I thought it was simply max
current delivery, but if the charger can't handle that then it sounds like a
charge spec and not a USB issue? Where's the line?

~~~
izacus
It's part of the USB-PD specification. Some manufacturers still add
proprietary extensions though, but in most cases the devices can still fast
charge in other chargers.

------
sebazzz
Let's put (2021) in the title please. This is not going to be resolved and it
is intentionally, USB-C is universal form factor, not in universal
functionality.

------
millette
Can the latest usb be "defanged" to only provide power and no data, as a
security measure? Or are they too smart for that, now?

~~~
Nextgrid
You can remove USB communication between the hosts with a cable that doesn’t
have any of the USB data lines, but as far as I know the lines for power
delivery are required and there is still communication between the PD
controllers.

You can use a C to A cable (without the data lines, or plugged into yet
another adapter that removes the data lines) but that will only work for
phones or other low-voltage devices as you can’t get more than 5V out of it.

~~~
millette
Thanks for the info.

------
fragmede
USB-C connector may have solved the problem with USB-A of which side is up,
but as a consumer, I don't even want to do that - the 3.5mm audio connector
doesn't have an 'up' or 'down', and given the smarts that USB-C requires in
devices, it seems a barrel connector like the audio jack could be used for
power and usb 2.0-speed data.

------
TwoNineFive
The article mentions lack of ports being a problem. I certainly would be okay
with giving up my audio jack for a phone with two USB C ports.

But also, this is a problem on laptops. The newest Dell XPS 13" actually
decreased the number of USB C ports from 3 to 2. So now you use one port for
charging, and your laptop only has a single USB port.

~~~
llampx
> The newest Dell XPS 13" actually decreased the number of USB C ports from 3
> to 2. So now you use one port for charging, and your laptop only has a
> single USB port.

Frankly, the consumer is the idiot for mindlessly buying and not complaining
about reduced functionality. Same with the newer tablets not having headphone
jacks.

