

Language affecting thought - the question arises again. - RiderOfGiraffes

Over here:<p>http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1812165<p>the question has again arisen about language affecting thought:<p>http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1813181<p>I've replied there, but thought I'd start a separate discussion in case people are interested.
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RiderOfGiraffes
Clickable:

\+ <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1812165>

\+ <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1813181>

And my reply: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1814970>

Repeated here:

Many linguists claim that the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (SWH) has been soundly
disproved. They have bags of evidence to show that the usual, strong
interpretation is false.

And yet every programmer with proficiency in several languages knows that some
problems are easier solved in Python, others in C++, and others in AWK.
Further, every polyglot I know will shift language according to nuances in the
thoughts they're trying to express, because some languages have
more/better/finer distinctions about different things.

In Spanish the words for "to wait" and "to hope" are the same. In some
contexts the words for "Even" and "Same" are both translated into the Frech as
"meme" (as in "meme chose" - "same thing"). Perhaps these conflations of words
show a conflation of concept. Yes, the differences in concepts exist in the
minds of the speakers, but the language to express them precisely isn't always
there.

There's a Spanish joke: "¿Cómo se llama a un ascensor en Inglés?" - "Con su
dedo." It doesn't translate into English - you need to read the Spanish.
Again, vocabulary conflation.

SWH has been debated here on HN before, many times, and no doubt it will
again, with the research-based linguists saying there's no difference in
lanugage chosen, and the polyglots snorting derisively.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1505365>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658951>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=218862>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1595991>

------
OneWhoFrogs
About 50 years ago, a researcher developed a language he designed to test the
Sapir-Whorf hypothesis called "Loglan." A speaker of its successor (Lojban)
posted an AMA on Reddit last year[1]. He posted this in regards to whether or
not it broadened his thinking:

 _I believe that learning lojban has helped me learn to think much more
precisely in general. The first example of this that comes to mind is how
often I see questions and confusion of family and friends as just confusion
about language. I can't actually verify, of course, how much of my perspective
is unrelated to lojban, how much is from lojban specifically, and how much is
from learning a language that's dramatically different from English._

So while it is superior for communication, it doesn't affect our thought
process.

[1]:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9c90z/i_speak_a_constr...](http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9c90z/i_speak_a_constructed_language_lojban_ama/)

~~~
RiderOfGiraffes
I speak a little lojban, and I believe it has changed the way I think. My use,
construction and perception of tenses has changed, and when I was reasonably
fluent I found that I tended to think in lojban when doing math.

Again, impossible to verify, entirely anecdotal, and based on introspection,
but it's what seemed to happen for me.

