
We Still Let Harassers Participate in Our Community - fortawesome
http://kovalc.in/2015/08/12/harassers.html
======
LeHatBad
So:

In the writer's own words, she did not respond honestly to his advances as she
hoped to advance her career through his acquaintance:

> While I tried to politely decline his advances, he was in a position of
> power over me in this industry. He said he knew my bosses, he knew where I
> worked, and he promised he’d help advance my career. I felt it best to stay
> in his “good graces” and not be flat out rude.

She did finally realize her mistake:

> I now understand how wrong this dynamic is.

And responded as she should have first. With the result that he stopped
pestering her:

> We haven’t spoken for over a year, as the last time I saw him I finally had
> the courage and support system to be direct, cold, and tell him to leave me
> alone.

In my book, the guy's a bit of a thickie and a more than a little creepy. Eww.
But she, by her explicit admission, did not let him know his advances were
unwanted in a "direct, cold" way because SHE HOPED TO GAIN FINANCIALLY AND
PROFESSIONALLY BY DOING SO.

In a nutshell: He clumsily tried to get laid and she strung him along for what
she could get out of him.

Eww.

Running book on how long that post stays up before she edits it.

~~~
Frondo
She turned him down, and you're saying she didn't turn him down firmly enough,
and did so to string him along? Why does that sound like a variation on "she
was asking for it, she didn't fight back hard enough" or any other kind of
victim-blaming?

~~~
coldtea
If people stopped pursuing people who "turned them down" at first, then half
of the world's children would be unborn, and half of the
marriages/relationships would have never happened.

Literally. Ask how many people's husbands or wives turned each other down a
first, and din't have to ask a few times, and even do some stupid things (down
to a serenade on a case I know, but there are far more involved cases), to
earn each other's love. Or read 100 or 1000 biographies and note down how
often this happens.

It might sound difficult for litigation and PC-heavy us protestants to hear,
where everyone is a victim, everything should be regulated and people should
only approach each other with laywers or gloves and full body armors, but it's
the way of the world.

Except if you think that every relationship starts as "love at first sight".

Now, if she had turned him down "firmly" that's another thing. But a simple
turndown that might sound like it might be overcome might not be enough.

~~~
tomlock
>>He started to get angry with me and reply with things like “fuck you” and
sometimes up to 8 texts in a row when I wouldn’t reply or would decline.

Given the above section, does this situation sound "PC-heavy" to you? The guy
literally texted abuse at a person because they didn't respond to his
advances. The fact that this person was scared or didn't want to cut
professional ties is evidence that something is wrong here with the situation,
and not the person themselves. How do we live in a society where people fear
saying no to a harasser, and people still seem to come in to bat for those
harassers?

~~~
coldtea
> _Given the above section, does this situation sound "PC-heavy" to you?_

No, such strong language + repeatedly declining to answer I think carries the
message perfectly accurately. He should have got it.

P.S. Although, I can see how "fuck you" can be seen as a double-message by the
guy (only joking).

~~~
interpol_p
It was the guy who texted "fuck you" when she didn't reply to his horrible
comments.

------
sunir
What is the right protocol? As a conference organizer I would like advice.
Getting past he said she said is a delicate problem.

~~~
Frondo
I have no problem with he said/she said, because I am willing to take a woman
at her word when she says "he harassed me".

On the extremely rare occasions I've heard of men complaining of being raped
by women, I don't think I've _ever_ heard anyone dismissing his complaint as
she said/he said.

~~~
bro-stick
Men and women both make up crazy stories all the time to attack other people.
It's incontraverible evidence that makes it clear one side isn't lying. It
seems like she has good evidence so it's not s/he said situation anyhow.

~~~
Frondo
In the US, we have a long history of dismissing women's complaints about
harassment or sexual assault with "she asked for it" or "she didn't fight back
hard enough" or "she's making it up".

I'm simply taking the radical step of actually taking women at their word when
they say these things, instead of carrying on with the tradition of assuming
the woman's lying or embellishing a story.

------
kelukelugames
Moral of the story is HR is useless. They are not here to make you feel more
comfortable. They are here to make sure nothing bad happens to the company.

------
mkaziz
Reading this made me really sad. The organization's response was straight up
unjust. They should've ejected the male speaker and prevented him from
attending the conference at all.

~~~
bro-stick
More often than not, organizers don't care enough about doing right and
instead do what is expedient because "they don't have the time to investigate
or take sides." It's real evil and wrong, but it's fairly common.

If organizers don't step up, crucifying them and perps in the media is another
way to go. IANAL but in this instance, the victim may persue criminal sexual
harassment charges if statue of limitations have not all expired and a
permanent restraining order should be sought to end unwanted attention.

~~~
hoopd
You're bieng more of a bully than the author's harasser.

Look at your language, you want to crucify people because they didn't destroy
somebody's reputation and possibly their entire career when a member of your
group asked them to? That's scary.

~~~
Asbostos
Are you saying that people whose career or reputation depends on not harassing
women should be allowed to get away with harassing women more than others?

A great example of the right way to do things is how the BBC kicked out their
biggest star, Jeremy Clarkson, due to a single case of assault when the victim
didn't even make a complaint. It shows that they don't give license to abuse
people to the more valuable employees.

~~~
hoopd
> Are you saying that people whose career or reputation depends on not
> harassing women should be allowed to get away with harassing women more than
> others?

Not at all. I'm saying the only evidence provided from the author is a
flirtatious text where the "harasser" was attempting to engage in consentual
intercourse with another adult. Was it inappropriate? Apparently, but reaching
out for human contact is a normal and healthy part of life.

The person I was responding to was fantasizing about destroying this person's
livelihood and the livelihoods of others who refused to take part in this
destruction. One person fantasized about a natural and healthy human activity
and the other fantasized about crucifiction. There may have been some vague
power dynamics in the (alleged) harassment but that doesn't measure up to
active and aggressive threats.

The Clarkson sacking was the result of a police investigation and regardless
of whether the ass-kicking was deserved or not there was a physical assault
with evidence that it happened. Why we would even compare a woman having to
say no in a clear and adult way to a man being physically assaulted is beyond
me.

------
ggchappell
A worthy post.

