
The poetry and brief life of a Foxconn worker: Xu Lizhi (1990-2014) - jimmer
https://libcom.org/blog/xulizhi-foxconn-suicide-poetry
======
sbarre
It's hard to remember sometimes that all the people in the world that live
lives so much worse than ours still have their own hopes and dreams, their own
aspirations and imaginations.

This article made me quite sad, despite the great poetry.

~~~
katowulf
I agree in every respect, but also hesitate to say lives "worse" than our own.
Different indeed, but I don't have an inkling of how to understand any of the
varied Chinese cultures or social classes. Nor can I fully appreciate what
would be required to compare the quality of those lives, with such different
belief structures and goals.

I can only see a beautiful soul snuffed out and wonder why he chose that
route. But then, even that is skewed by my culture of freedom and my religious
beliefs.

~~~
matthewwiese
The differences between Chinese and Western values matter little in this
context. Sure, you could make an argument that their social culture which
values hard work would promote these working conditions, but that is
irrelevant.

"Worse", despite its subjective meaning, can arguably be used objectively in
this case. To be quite frank, Foxconn treats its workers like trash [1]. It's
a throwback to the labor rights violations of early industrial America. While
you may sit back in your chair and type away that you can't possibly call
their lives worse, you nor I would ever want to be caught in an environment
like theirs.

There's a huge difference between a culture that values hard work, and one
that also knows the respect which its workers deserve.

[1] [http://www.facing-finance.org/en/database/cases/working-
cond...](http://www.facing-finance.org/en/database/cases/working-conditions-
in-foxconn-factories-in-china/)

------
CognitiveLens
Suicide is a tragedy and people should always do what they can to prevent it.
However, it is also something that will always occur in some portion of the
population, typically as the result of depression. We should not ignore the
fact that the suicide rate in, for example, the United States is an order of
magnitude higher than it is at Foxconn. Foxconn employs over 1.2 million
people, so the number of suicides will appear high compared with other,
smaller companies. Working conditions are tough, the cultural environment is
difficult for people with depression (which can be said for almost every
culture), and the company could invest more resources to provide help to those
in need. But we cannot 'fix' depression, and it's irresponsible to divert
attention from the underlying mental health issue to blame the employer for
all the employees who have committed suicide.

~~~
DontBeADick
You should try reading the article next time -- this post has absolutely
nothing to do with suicide rates.

I guess your response is somewhat appropriate though. Like the company he
worked for, you didn't even stop for a second to think of Xu as a human being,
he was just a means to an end. In your case, that end being the collection
free internet brownie points by posting a contrarian opinion.

~~~
notahacker
That's unfair. The article _starts off_ by referencing suicide rates; the
website exists to argue against workplace iniquity rather than celebrate
creative output.

It's actually reading the surrounding details of Xu's life deeper into the
article, and particularly his poetry, that makes it abundantly clear that more
was preying upon his mind than long hours and an institutional environment.

------
xarien
The second poem actually gives quite a bit of insight regarding his situation.
Translation from Chinese to English is hard and much is lost in translation.
I'll translate the following to prose as to minimize what's lost in the
translation:

《冲突》 "Conflict"

他们都说 They all say

我是个话很少的孩子 I'm a child of few words

对此我并不否认 This I don't deny

实际上 But actually

我说与不说 Whether I speak or not

都会跟这个社会 With this society I'll still

发生冲突 Conflict

"They've always told me that I was a quiet child. I do not deny that fact,
however, whether I speak up or not doesn't alter the fact that I feel
incompatible with this society."

The main beef I have with the translation is that conflict is a very explicit
word whereas Chinese is much more implicit. It's pretty obvious that there was
a large disconnect with what he wanted out of society vs reality. This is
unfortunately quite common in China.

Being someone who grew up reading Chinese novels extensively, I can attest
that the culture itself is heavily romanticized and when compared to the
modern subversion influenced by the communist party, it's figuratively night
and day.

~~~
noname123
My translation, trying to preserve the imagery expressed in some of the
characters and also the rhythm of poetry in Mandarin,

《冲突》 "Collision, Rushing to a"

他们都说 The people are always talking, speculating

我是个话很少的孩子 That I'm a man-child, a little bit morose, have little to show for
in the discipline of twisting tongue

对此我并不否认 To their accusation I won't deny nor recant,

实际上 But I'll instead declare that in reality, (not on their verbal plane),

我说与不说 I choose to speak to not speak - might as well cut my tongue,

都会跟这个社会 I have computed all possible scenario's of their word games and
foresaw,

发生冲突 All interactions rushing on the freeway, en-route to their collisions.

------
yourad_io
The poems is heart breaking. Read them, even if they put a dent in your day.

~~~
yourad_io
I mean...

 _《一颗螺丝掉在地上》 "A Screw Fell to the Ground"

一颗螺丝掉在地上 A screw fell to the ground

在这个加班的夜晚 In this dark night of overtime

垂直降落，轻轻一响 Plunging vertically, lightly clinking

不会引起任何人的注意 It won’t attract anyone’s attention

就像在此之前 Just like last time

某个相同的夜晚 On a night like this

有个人掉在地上 When someone plunged to the ground_

...fuck.

~~~
sbarre
This was definitely the one that hit me the hardest...

------
mrottenkolber

       《冲突》
       "Conflict"
    
       他们都说
       They all say
    
       我是个话很少的孩子
       I'm a child of few words
    
       对此我并不否认
       This I don't deny
    
       实际上
       But actually
    
       我说与不说
       Whether I speak or not
    
       都会跟这个社会
       With this society I'll still
    
       发生冲突
       Conflict
    
       -- 7 June 2013

------
drderidder
Wow, beautiful poetry. The article, and recently a documentary on the garment
trade in Bangledesh [1] had me thinking about ethical consumption. Ever since
watching "The Story of Stuff" [2] I've wanted a way to easily understand the
ethical implications of purchases. I'd like to scan a bar code and get a
1-to-5 rating of how ethical and fair the product life cycle is - something
like that. I'd be willing to pay more, and do with less, if it meant knowing
that my purchases contributed to a healthy work-life balance, living wage,
and... well, _hope_ , basically, for the various people involved in the
production chain. The Fair Trade label on my coffee doesn't go very far to
quell the inner conviction that stories like this increasingly raise. I don't
really care for a gold iGadget, or whatever, but I'd love one that's built
with empathy. I don't buy the argument that fair-trade is a luxury for the
upper middle class. I think it would benefit everyone and contribute to a more
participatory economy. [3]

[1] [http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/episodes/2013-2014/made-in-
banglades...](http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/episodes/2013-2014/made-in-bangladesh)

[2] [http://storyofstuff.org/](http://storyofstuff.org/)

[3]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8548035](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8548035)

------
api
Capitalism indeed seems to consign the masses to work that is drudgery and is
intellectually beneath them, but so does socialism.

Every socialist experiment I'm familiar with has almost instantly devolved
into a form of a capitalism based on social pull with the bureaucracy rather
than financial leverage. The final endpoint of this trajectory seems to be the
mafia state -- pure social pull capitalism within criminal-state complex
hierarchies.

If there's a solution here, it may not lie within politics as we ordinarily
think about it.

~~~
psygnisfive
Check out the anarchist socialist experiments like Catalonia during the
Spanish civil war. They tended to collapse because of inability to fight
external forces, not because of bureaucratic bloat, etc.

~~~
api
Interesting. But I still wonder how they'd fare in the long term. Would they
maintain their cooperative state or devolve into mafia statism as most
experiments in radical socialism seem to do.

~~~
wffurr
Unlikely because those types of workers' movements are anti-statist by their
very nature. For a similar philosophy, see anarcho-syndicalism.

------
yitchelle
Does anyone else think that it is rather sad that the comments at the bottom
of the article are bickering about the the licensing issues of the poetry?
Although, it is an important issue, this article is probably not the most
appropriate forum for the discussion.

------
liangx4
He ordered some books five days prior to the tragedy which makes me wonder if
he is planned the suicide or not. Also I wondered if he has any poems that is
relatively more positive. But it is just sad that these poems are so striking.
Simply a loss.

------
brd
This is one of those moments where I'm utterly distressed by the lack of a
solution to curb all the frivolous consumerism of the world.

It's scary to consider how many others are just like Xu and how many more, us
included, are only slightly better off.

~~~
svachalek
What if we didn't buy electronics, or what if we insisted on treating these
workers so well it made more sense to leave the factories in the US? Then our
money stays here and young men and women like Xu are back in their villages
trying to scrape out a living on a few square meters of soil. Workers take
these jobs because it's an opportunity to improve their life and the lives of
their families. It may still be miserable compared to what it "should" or
"could" be but the fact is it's better than the alternative.

We should definitely do what we can as consumers to pressure the companies and
governments in our supply chain to improve the quality of life for their
laborers. I'm just saying that the alternative world where these guys are all
living out peaceful, prosperous lives just "because" is not one that has ever
existed either.

~~~
brd
This argument always comes up and its an argument I hate. If for no other
reason, I dislike it because from what I've seen rates of depression are
dramatically higher when you introduce these sorts of jobs vs. letting people
scrape by working land in a 3rd world setting.

What you're arguing is (excuse the hyperbolic nature of the example) that
slavery is better than leaving indigenous people in their natural setting.
Your argument makes sense from an economic perspective but I don't believe it
holds water when you account for quality of life.

~~~
svachalek
FWIW, I've been to Shenzhen and actually ended up in a hotel across the street
from the big Foxconn campus where I assume Xu worked. At shift change time an
unbelievable army comes rolling out; I believe it's over 100,000 workers per
shift although most live on-campus. But they looked pretty much like any group
of blue collar workers I've ever seen getting off work. They were talking,
smiling, laughing, eating snacks.

15 years ago I saw some of rural China. I saw a lot of dirty, leathery, gap-
toothed people, and it seemed most couldn't afford shoes. The population
density was incredible, with entire families working plots of land that
weren't any bigger than suburban yards.

These days, to be fair, it's gotten quite a bit better in the countryside as
the Chinese economy has boomed, food prices have risen, and many people have
moved to the city. People look healthier, wear shoes, have plumbing. But for
the sake of comparing the "indigenous" life I don't think it's fair to look at
the post-industrialized state.

I guess in short I'm saying it's not fair to over-dramatize the difference and
think about shackled slaves vs. native warriors riding around grassy plains. I
think ultimately it's only fair to ask the people themselves and I think you
will find that the average Chinese worker is far happier with the direction
their life and country are moving in than the average American.

------
tzakrajs
Does poetry like this keep people from suicide or make it more likely? To
focus on your grief, to not speak of it and then to bottle it up into poetry
seems dangerous.

------
bennyg
Wow. Truly moving stuff. He has an amazing way with words, and the translator
did an awesome job of porting it to English. So very sad.

------
oldmanjay
I wonder how Xu would have felt about being used by such a wide variety of
people to flog their pet causes?

------
frandroid
I take great joy in seeing libcom.org linked on HN.

------
modifier
A few kind words, a moment of sadness and contemplation, then right back to
the same consumer behaviors.

Hypocrites.

------
doctorstupid
And I thought that the only totalitarian things about my macbook were its
aesthetics and operating system.

------
simplemath
Time for another facile PR stunt, Apple!

Alternatively, how about sowing 0.01% of your cash back into these workers and
demanding that the factory improve working and living conditions?

~~~
MSM
My understanding is that the only reason these jobs aren't automated already
is because labor is cheaper. Unfortunately I think the alternative to a
terrible job like working for Foxconn is no job at all for a lot of folks.

~~~
gohrt
Another alternative is USA companies paying closer to USA minimum wage. If
that means more automation instead, that's fine (more efficient production),
and the unemployed can use their additional free time to fight their
_supposedly socialist_ government to share the wealth.

------
omgmaouz
As much as I feel for this poor guy I can't help but feel that this article is
glamorising suicide.

Suicide is a selfish (IMO cowardly) act and I'm sure his family will suffer
for the rest of their lives because of it.

~~~
sroerick
Was the self-immolation of Mohamed Bouazizi a selfish and cowardly act?

Is it cowardly and selfish to continue using these products? Do you have any
kind of exit strategy or utopian vision where everyone, even Foxconn workers
can afford a fashionable new iPhone?

In 100 years, we've gone from using slaves for labor to using machines built
by wage slaves for labor, mostly because using slaves for labor makes us feel
too guilty. Many would call that selfish and cowardly.

I don't endorse suicide, but I don't think it helps anyone to reduce a complex
and heartbreaking situation like this into a simple othering.

~~~
omgmaouz
I think his parents/siblings would have wished he had never committed suicide.

Although it seems there is no end of politicians willing to ride on his act
and use it as a source of legitimacy.

~~~
shawabawa3
> I think his parents/siblings would have wished he had never committed
> suicide.

That seems selfish to me. He has to suffer so they don't have to?

