
Dogs rush to help when owners cry, study suggests - shawndumas
https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/07/24/health/dogs-human-crying-empathy-study/index.html
======
natejenkins
I often tell people that I love my dog more than any human has ever loved a
child, but I don't love this study.

The result is fairly obvious to any dog owner, but the study is representative
of the type of "pop" science that appears so often in the news but carries
little actual significance. 34 dogs total, 17 in each group (humming vs
crying), 9 of which respond to humming and 7 of which respond to crying,
albeit the latter much faster than the former. Of those 34 dogs, 16 were
therapy dogs. While the time difference is large, more dogs respond to humming
than crying.

So we have a very small sample size which is biased towards therapy dogs. It
is also very susceptible to p-hacking. Why "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star"? Was
this the song that produced the largest effect out of 20 different songs? Why
do more dogs respond to the humming than crying but the dogs that do respond
to crying act so quickly? Were the crying sounds much louder than the humming?
Why not crying vs yelling, both of which are likely of similar volume? And so
on.

~~~
toast_coder
Do you think you experience emotions differently than other human beings? It
seems really presumptuous to say you love somthing more than others ever have.
Presumptuous and insulting.

Furthermore, i think alot of people would say sacrifice is the greatest
display of love, and I would bet a whole lot more parents have sacrificed a
whole lot more for their children then anything you have sacrificed for for
dog.

~~~
robotrout
I'm sure he takes his dog to "dog care" every day, where it's played with
constantly (not caged). He would never leave his dog alone in his 500 square
foot apartment all day, barking it's loneliness to the delight of his
neighbors.

While such dog care can be very expensive, he sacrifices that money even more
gladly than a mother would for her child's care. This is what he implies with
his statement, and I see no reason he would lie to us.

~~~
Retra
You can't analyze a person's behavior, especial their emotional behavior,
without including cultural context. Society does not appreciate people leaving
toddlers home alone, but they do not care if you do so with a puppy. That
alone is enough to make the matter of "dog care" irrelevant in assessing
someone's feelings on the matter.

~~~
pdx
Yes, but the poster loves his dog more than any human has ever loved their
child. He does not merely conform to societal norms with such love.

~~~
Retra
Clearly such an exceptional dog-lover won't conform to your expectations about
how that love manifests, either.

------
erickhill
When we first brought my daughter home from the hospital we let our old pug
smell her. He growled once when she first cried, then tilted his head from the
sound.

Later we put her in her first bath - she shrieked! We did this in the middle
of our living room in a small plastic tub on the floor. We were sitting on the
floor; I sat on my knees. He (Cyrano) sat with us and while she shrieked, he
placed one of his paws on one of my legs. He’d never done anything like that
in his entire life. It looked so... human. It was so strange a family member
took a picture of the event.

I miss that old boy. He was a good dog.

------
gok
Our newborn daughter cried right after we came home from the hospital, and our
dog immediately started barking at mom and dad. Weirdly, the dog has never
barked in reaction to the baby ever again since that first time.

My wife and I have a hypothesis that the dog was worried we couldn’t hear the
baby, and was reassured when seeing us tend to the baby quickly.

~~~
spdustin
This may be outdated now, but I read a lot of canine behavioral research when
I got my (late) dog about 16 years ago. She was a white German Shepherd Dog
named Stella, and I miss the hell out of her. One recurring theme was a dog's
role in their "pack" (in the case of pets, the humans and other pets they live
with).

A dog who understands that their owner is the "alpha" will bark as a warning
to them. Example: It was recommended that, if a dog barked at the door when
someone knocked/rang owners praised their dog—"Good warning, thank you!" (and
maybe a treat)—and then re-engage them quickly with another command ("sit!")
if you choose not to investigate. They'd ostensibly come to learn that their
single bark was their job.

I did this with Stella, and whenever someone came to the door, she barked
_once_ , ran to me, and sat down, because she learned I may or may not answer
it, and her job was done. If someone was _lurking_ , she'd bark, run to me, go
back to where she saw the person, and if they were still there, this would
repeat, regardless of praise. It stood out as unusual, and research suggested
that that's what she wanted me to know. "This is different, boss! Come look!"

I used this concept in all her training and interactions; humans were her
betters, and I was her alpha. Pack animals (it was said) got anxiety when the
pecking order wasn't clear to them. That anxiety causes all sorts of what we
call "problem behavior" (barking excessively, chewing/scratching at the door
when their human leaves the house, rushing through open doors, etc.).

She was the most loving, fun, hard-working, peaceful, well-behaved dog I ever
owned, and I believe it was coming to view our family as (from her canine
perspective) her pack that made her training and integration into our lives
such a success.

~~~
TACIXAT
Dominance theory and the alpha pack stuff is very outdated. It sounds like you
had a great relationship with your dog though. Giving them a job (warning),
redirecting the behavior (barking with sit) so it doesn't carry on.

~~~
spdustin
It may be so—as I suggested. :)

FWIW (anecdata warning) two of my friends have since owned dogs, training them
using the same concepts. Perhaps it's a combination of breed (some breeds may
retain more of their evolutionary pack awareness than others) and the specific
sorts of training exercises (e.g. make them sit and wait when a door is
opened, allowing the humans to go first and then say "okay" when the dog can
go through), but their dogs are always held up as exemplars of "good dogs"
when the topic comes up. No anxiety, no destructive chewing, no excessive
barking, o impatience, no bolting…

Every lesson and interaction was predicated on the dog's position in the
hierarchy of the human family ("pack"), and the only "tool" used outside of
verbal and hand commands was a tasty treat (no clickers, no shock collars, no
halters, no spray bottles, no physical discipline, etc.)

Crates were used, but never as a form discipline or "convenience holding".
That was their safe place to sleep and eat, and that's it.

I guess what I'm saying is: if the theory is outdated, a lot of the concepts
that informed the training regimen that I learned back are effective today.

"They're good dogs, Brent."

------
tjr225
Developing our co-evolution with dogs was perhaps the greatest thing humans
ever did...we really don't deserve dogs.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
I wonder if it was entirely human, or if it was the proto-dogs themselves that
self selected - it would have had to been the the animals that were already
predisposed to hanging with us that would have been domesticated - I doubt
ancient human's would have gone out of their way to capture, pen up, and train
them.

~~~
wyldfire
The new "Cosmos" series has an episode that touches on the domestication of
dogs [1]. It talks about variations in hormone levels of wolves: some
naturally feared humans less and were rewarded with scraps of food. And thus
formed an early symbiosis with man.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQHBmY6LbiA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQHBmY6LbiA)

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
It did seem strange my thoughts were being narrated by Neil deGrasse Tyson
while I typed. That was a fun series.

------
jimnutt
Shoot, this is how I recapture our dog when he gets loose. Chasing him is no
good, he thinks that's a game, so I just collapse on the sidewalk and yell for
him to come help. He trots right back over to me.

~~~
dvtv75
I have a greyhound who occasionally likes to go for a run by himself. He
doesn't think of it as a game, it seems to me that he's just off to patrol his
territory. It's not just his running speed that makes him hard to catch,
either. His reflexes are so quick that when I grab for his collar, if he
doesn't want me to grab it, I can't. He's like those ninja movies where the
fight scenes are sped up.

Last time he went for a run I had to get the car! Found him playing with some
kids at the local sports ground - I'm glad greyhounds have such a pleasant
nature, and love people so much, because if he'd appeared any more aggressive
than a giant and playful puppy, there might have been problems.

------
srge
I had a mild panic attack during a LSD trip and my dog curled on my side and
basically « sucked » my anxiety and made me feel relaxed.

On another day, my wife remembered a sad event in her life and began to cry
silently. Our dog woke up and came to sit at her side calmly.

We don’t deserve dogs.

~~~
dvtv75
Some time back, my partner had a really sad event in her life, and she sat on
the couch crying. We have two dogs, a happy yet dumb-as-a-rock greyhound, and
a collie-staffie cross. The collie noticed, jumped up on the couch, and
cuddled into her to (try and) make her happy again.

When we lost her pack mate to cancer, a few years ago, she sat on the couch
for ten days, didn't eat, just lay with her head between her paws. We were all
heartbroken, myself most of all, but she was too sad to help anyone this
particular time. After she recovered, she helped me a lot.

We don't deserve dogs, but dogs are awesome and we could learn a lot from
them. “Be the person your dog thinks you are!” ― J.W. Stephens

------
TheSpiceIsLife
_" It is interesting to think that all these anecdotes of dogs rescuing
humans, they could be grounded in truth, and this study is a step toward
understanding how those kinds of mechanisms work," she said._

I don't understand this comment, does Emily Sanford think all these stories
are made up?

The few times I've hurt myself enough to verbally whine both my 15 month old
pups have swiftly approached, and they're in a markedly different state to
when I call them over to play.

~~~
wgerard
> I don't understand this comment, does Emily Sanford think all these stories
> are made up?

More likely she's not immediately attributing these stories to "dogs
intentionally come to the aid of humans."

People anthropomorphize pets to an enormous extent. One can imagine plenty of
other reasons why a dog might e.g. alert the neighbors that their owner is in
trouble ("I'm hungry and my owner isn't feeding me" is a very simplistic one
off the top of my head).

It's well worth being skeptical about.

------
faitswulff
Reminds me of this video: "Dogs Tested to See Whether They’d Defend Owner
During Home Invasion"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ74oFctP_g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ74oFctP_g)

Spoiler alert: dogs are probably not as helpful as their owners think during
high stress scenarios.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
That video's contrived. Of course your average companion dog or hound / gundog
isn't going to really know what to do when an intruder appears.

Try the same experiment with dogs who've been trained for protection. Search
YouTube for _protection dog_.

~~~
faitswulff
I don't think it's contrived compared to the expectations that ordinary people
have of their dogs. Dog owners likely secretly think that their pooch is going
to protect them, even if they're not _protection dogs._

~~~
bad_user
You don't need a trained, protection dog. E.g. Labradors are toys, being bred
to be playful and loving. A half breed of a pit bull doesn't count much
either.

What you need is an aggressive race. Also females tend to be more protective
AFAIK.

I had a Rottweiler for example, that I was walking without a leash near my
building because to my knowledge she was well behaved, but with no special
training other than me talking with her daily. So one day I was attacked by a
homeless person and my dog, came from the bush where she was peeing and nearly
bit his hand off. Well she was about 50 Kg and size and weight do count.

And another day she stood her ground to a pack of 3 or 4 street dogs. What can
I say, was living in a bad neighborhood.

Also in our country we still have many classic shepherds that practice
transhumance, with these 2 races of dogs being very popular, called "mioritic
shepherd" and "caucasian shepherd", including all kinds of half breeds, and
these shepherd dogs can get pretty big and get used for defense against
thieves, wolves, you name it.

And they don't need training btw. They aren't kept for emotional support, they
are kept to defend the herd and with the harsh conditions involved, they can
get really, really aggressive. And actually it's the same story if you go to
the country side where people keep dogs to protect the house and livestock.
Dogs being entirely utilitarian, they only get food and shelter in exchange,
not love, so they know what needs to be done in case of intruders.

My grandparents had a saying — if you want a dog that can protect you, you
should never allow other people to feed or pet it.

~~~
sevensor
> Labradors are toys, being bred to be playful and loving. A half breed of a
> pit bull doesn't count much either.

Interesting that you'd say this -- I think there's always exceptions to these
rules, and here's mine:

I had a half-laborador, half-pitbull. Like a lab, she was very aware of
people's emotions, and like a pit, she was strong, aggressive, and had a very
high pain threshold. (She barely reacted when we pulled porcupine spines out
of her nose with pliers.) Unfortunately, this was a problematic mix. If I was
the least bit uncomfortable with somebody, even if it was just social anxiety
and I wasn't in any danger, she would start growling and try to make them go
away. And she viewed every other dog as a mortal threat, to which she would
react with murderous fury. I have no doubt that if I had felt physically
threatened, she would have done serious and possibly disproportionate damage.

I wasn't able to take her out much.

~~~
dvtv75
A friend of mine has a staffie/bull terrier cross, with who knows what else in
her. The dog has the nicest nature I can imagine (that's the staffie), and
usually seems like a really affectionate animal with no aggressive traits.

One day, he was out walking her, and three guys came up to him. They stood
around my friend in the usual threatening triangle formation, so no matter
which way he faced someone was behind him. They started accusing him of
stealing from them, and started to get aggressive until one noticed his dog
and asked if she attacked. Just a moment later, she launched herself at the
three of them - only the tight leash saved them from being bitten. She'd die
to protect her family.

Whenever I visit him, she "attacks" me - launches herself at me so I can
lavish attention on her for as long as possible. If he ever had to get rid of
her, I'd take her in a heartbeat, but depriving her of the kids she loves so
much would be one of those heartbreaking moments you'd never want to see.

------
esquivalience
I suspect most dog owners will not be surprised by this.

~~~
MaxBarraclough
Well sure. The whole value in these sorts of studies is that pet owners'
intuitions are untrustworthy, as they have a very strong inclination to
anthropomorphize their pets.

~~~
veridies
I've heard people object to anthropomorphizing animals before, and it's always
seemed like a very odd objection to me. Dogs and cats react very similarly to
us when it comes to things like threats or fear or play. That makes sense
given that a lot of the evolutionary constraints on any predatory animal are
going to be similar. Additionally, dogs absolutely co-evolved with humans,
with us adapting to understand and build relationships with them and them
evolving to incorporate themselves into our communities.

I'm not saying pets are exactly the same as humans, but I do think that you're
going to be hard-pressed to find a better heuristic for dog behavior than
thinking about what a non-verbal human would do in their situation.

(I know you didn't make a particularly strong statement here; I'm just
responding to other objections I've heard).

~~~
Retra
The problem is that people don't even consider other mental models. It's easy
to say "I can't do that", but that doesn't mean a dog can't do it: it has a
dog brain, so it is obviously not limited to feeling what humans would feel in
situations.

It's a _justifiable_ heuristic, but it is still a heuristic, and it's we
choose because we are very biased toward human conceptualizations. So we
shouldn't say it is a _good_ heuristic, and we should be wary when relying on
it to make decisions.

------
amelius
How about dogs that know (i.e., predict) when their owners come home?

[https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-
check/scientific-...](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-
check/scientific-heretic-rupert-sheldrake-on-morphic-fields-psychic-dogs-and-
other-mysteries/)

------
AdamJacobMuller
I was a bit sick a few weeks ago and spent some time throwing up in the
bathroom (the flu is not fun). My 10-year-old 14-pound jack russell terrier
mix stood in the door of the bathroom not facing/watching me but staring
outwards. I obviously can't be sure of this, but, I choose to believe that she
realized I was not feeling well and was in a vulnerable position and was
protecting me. Going to miss that girl someday.

------
GordonS
As a child, we had a cat that would do this - any time any of us cried, or
even when we were really sad, she would come over and start miaowing and
rubbing against us.

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OldSchoolJohnny
Cats do too.

~~~
KozmoNau7
All of my parents' cats have been very attentive to bad states of mind in
people. My sister has social anxiety and suffered from depression for a long
time. All of their cats both past and present would/will pick up on this, and
come to her, to snuggle and purr. As aloof as cats can seem, they do have a
drive for companionship, and not just for food or snacks.

A warm, purring cat on your lap can be surprisingly therapeutic.

~~~
a3n
I've had a cat sleep on my chest, and my son sleep on my chest. They are both
very grounding and calming experiences.

I suddenly wonder if imagining a cat sleeping on my chest would help me sleep.

~~~
seren
Probably the same effect that a heavy blanket that increase the production of
serotonin and has a calming effect.

------
pvaldes
Wolves can help also when encounter a child crying. The sound seems to trigger
a cub protection response.

------
dixie_land
IDK I love my dog but when I fake falling to the floor to see how she reacts
she would come running and hump me

------
AstralStorm
Are they really trying here to get igNoble due to essentially wasting research
money?

~~~
Retra
If you want to find "wasted" money, look to the entertainment and sports
industries.

