
Retailers Shut Facebook Storefonts Amid Apathy - mikek
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-17/f-commerce-trips-as-gap-to-penney-shut-facebook-stores-retail.html
======
nikcub
The problem is that Facebook is a pain to navigate. If I wanted to shop for
something online, the last place that I would go to would be Facebook - and
even if I did choose to go to Facebook I wouldn't even know where to go or
what to click on. A lot of those company pages have a spammy feel to them and
when you like a brand they pollute your news feed.

The Facebook design has zero familiarity to it. I have been using the site for
over 5 years now, at least once a week, and yet I have zero familiarity with
the product. When I click on a link in Facebook, I have no idea what is really
going to happen. I have written blog posts and popular guides on Facebook yet
when I am helping others secure their accounts I find myself just clicking and
guessing. It would definitely be in the top 5 products that I have used in the
last 5 years yet it is the only popular product that I can't navigate blindly.

The menu's are starting to remind me of the toolbar hell of later Microsoft
Office versions (a reason why a lot of power users are hesitant to upgrade
Office).

I think Facebook really need to streamline their design, separate brands from
real friends in the news feed and sit down and work out how they can expose
deeper functionality of the platform to users without just throwing dozens of
links into the interface. When you have personal pictures from friends mixed
in with brand messages users are more likely to feel that their privacy is
being violated.

Edit: to add, this is why I think Facebook isn't as secure in popularity as
many analysts would have you believe. Pinterest is an example of a real threat
to Facebook - a site that was designed with social and e-commerce ingrained in
the product with an easy to use interface. That is a billion-dollar
opportunity to Facebook is about to miss out on.

Edit 2: My attempt to shop on Facebook:

[https://img.skitch.com/20120219-nd4peencu2b7kf9534juhb1ytc.j...](https://img.skitch.com/20120219-nd4peencu2b7kf9534juhb1ytc.jpg)

vs my attempt on Pinterest:

[https://img.skitch.com/20120219-fjyq53h693eb4fnfitamgsmuc5.j...](https://img.skitch.com/20120219-fjyq53h693eb4fnfitamgsmuc5.jpg)

~~~
jballanc
Your comment reminded me of when I used to work at Circuit City. One week,
they decided to run a promotion: you would go to the Circuit City website,
pick out and customize a computer. Then, you would print out a sheet with your
order number on it, _and go to the store to pay for it_.

It was painfully obvious to me at the time that this was probably the
brainchild of some young gun marketer at HQ. "Here's the deal," I imagine him
saying. "People that shop at our on-line store don't go home with as many
accessories and don't purchase extended warrantees as often as our in store
customers. So, we'll make sure they have to go in the store. Then we can up-
sell the crap out of them! It's flawless!"

Later on, I worked at the Apple Store. I once had a customer come in who was
trying to decide between a MacBook and some low-end model of HP. I went
through everything that she would get with the MacBook that she wouldn't get
with the HP, and one after the other she informed me that she wasn't all that
enticed by the difference. When we finished she told me, "I think I should get
the HP."

"Yeah," I replied, "that's probably the right choice for you at this point. If
you need another computer in the future, though, don't forget about us." The
customer was stunned. She wanted to know why I wasn't pushing her toward the
Mac. "Simple," I said, "we want you to buy an Apple because it's the best
product for you, not because some pushy sales-person badgered you into a
sale."

One of those companies is gone, one is the most valuable company in the world.
Marketing on Facebook, to me, has always felt much more like Circuit City's
strategy, and almost never like Apple's.

~~~
jasonlotito
On the flip side, my last experience with the Apple Store and it's sales staff
left me hating the entire experience. Suffice it to say, you can't walk and
buy something knowing what you want. You are forced to wait for some sales
person. More than a half hour into the experience, we simply left. My brother-
in-law was sitting there, ready to buy. He knew exactly what he wanted. We
left, and he never made the purchase.

So, when I read things like this, all I see is a sales person who just wasted
another customers time. Sure, it's policies, and you are spending that time
with a potential customer, and treating them well. The point, however, is I've
had better experiences buying Apple products from places like FutureShop,
where I can walk in, explain what I want, pay, and walk out in less than 5
minutes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure for the majority of people this is... fine (I
guess). I mean, making an appointment to buy something is natural.

But yeah, I avoid the Apple store now. Between that, and numerous other
things, it's at best a frustrating experience.

~~~
r00fus
I had exactly the opposite experience last 2 times I was there - in one case a
couple of years ago, I got an AppleTV... I straight-up said I was not
interested in anything else, just that, I got a sales rep in about 2 minutes,
then joked with him for another minute about how awesome Netflix on the aTV
was. Paid, then I walked out without a bag or paper receipt.

More recently, with Apple's improved "self-checkout", I simply scanned the
item on my iPhone app and pay with my AppleID. Again, no receipt, no bag.

I challenge you to find a more geek-friendly checkout mechanism. YMMV of
course, but I've gotten really good mileage at my local Apple store.

~~~
jasonlotito
The experience is different for things that are stocked on the shelf. Having
to wait for a sales rep to be finished (regardless of other employees standing
around) to purchase a computer is... well, described in my parent post.

------
stretchwithme
I never understood why companies ever thought I want to be a fan of my
favorite mop or cheese grater.

The real effect of all of this has been to get Facebook mentioned on
television and radio many times per hour at no cost to Facebook.

~~~
a_a_r_o_n
I think that Like Us sticker on your mop has nothing to do with you, and
everything to do with the mop company employee who implemented it and their
relationship to their boss. "We're on Facebook!"

~~~
wtvanhest
I agree 100%. It makes no sense other than internal positioning. Great point.

------
rhplus
I'm guessing I'm not the only one who has never actually seen a "Facebook
store". Here's what appears to be a moderately good list of some "popular"
stores:

[http://socialcommercetoday.com/top-50-facebook-stores-
top-20...](http://socialcommercetoday.com/top-50-facebook-stores-
top-20-facebook-store-solutions/)

From what I can tell from the first few, it's not really much more than a very
basic third-party e-commerce platform squeezed into Facebooks frame.

Am I missing something? Why would a major retail brand want to downgrade the
shopping experience to this when they can simply link through to their
existing store front with their own brand experience, tracking, metrics,
promotions and upsells? It seems baffling that any company would be content to
squeeze their store into Facebook's 500 pixel-wide frame.

------
incongruity
IMHO, this proves (yet again) how difficult it is to monetize social networks
and I think it's a commentary on the long-term viability of facebook – if
nothing else, as the article mentions briefly, it's a crack in the high-value
facade that FB and its early investors have tried so hard to build.

I guess it's an open question as to just how much of the network's would-be
value can be wrung out of it by facebook – but doing so is a dangerous game
for them. On the one hand, if you exploit your users too much or too
invasively, you'll see a huge uproar and pushback. On the other, if you can't
produce results for customers (retailers, etc.), then the perceived value of
your product goes down significantly.

 _edit:_ Ah, yes, the non-communicative downvote. Please, if you disagree with
me then by all means, say so. Downvoting does little to build any sort of
higher intellectual exchange. If I'm wrong, I'd love to be told why... it
might even spur a good conversation.

~~~
a_a_r_o_n
"On the one hand, if you exploit your users too much or too invasively, you'll
see a huge uproar and pushback. On the other, if you can't produce results for
customers (retailers, etc.), then the perceived value of your product goes
down significantly."

I was thinking about this recently, in the context of Target and its use of
statistics to get ads for baby products to people who they calculate are
pregnant, and in the more general context of gmail et al. and ads based on
email content.

There's probably a Laffer Curve kind of relationship between number of ads
served (taxes) and the amount of views/visit/use (work). Serve more ads and
your revenue goes up, to a point. Serve to many ads, and your revenue goes
down, because people view/use/work less.

Still trying to work out how the Trickle Down theory manifests online.

------
Duff
I wouldn't shop on Facebook, for a few reasons.

One - I don't trust them... At some point they will do "beacon" or something
similar again.

Two - Facebook will eventually either make you use FB gift cards or make a cut
from the retailer. Either way, it will cost more.

Three - If I want a pair of khakis from the Gap, I can type "gap.com"... Or go
down the Facebook navigation rabbit hole, which changes several times per
year.

The only thing that makes sense to me for Facebook commerce is marketing at
people who don't have access to credit cards, or at people whose only internet
access is Facebook via feature phones.

~~~
AgentConundrum
> _Three - If I want a pair of khakis from the Gap, I can type "gap.com"... Or
> go down the Facebook navigation rabbit hole, which changes several times per
> year._

1999: AOL Keyword: GAP

2012: Facebook.com/GAP

~~~
amateurguru
@GAP

------
Jare
I never knew Facebook was trying to cover this segment of the web presence,
but if I did, I would have imagined them forcing some kind of fee on
storeowners like they do with mandatory credits for apps/games. Given that
there were no apparent barriers like that for F-store operations, it's quite
interesting to learn that people didn't use them. I can imagine three issues:

\- buyers just didn't know about this.

\- people want a more private experience when buying online. Not so much
"trying to sell to people in a bar" as "people don't want to shop when it
feels that everyone is looking".

\- buyers are more and more using mobile, and Facebook is still trying to
figure out how to integrate 3rd parties into their mobile experience.

Given the patterns of behaviour of Facebook users, I can't really believe any
of the three, which leaves me confused.

Oh, and F-Commerce is a funny term.

~~~
kellishaver
I'm not sure it's something Facebook is necessarily pushing. I think it's just
businesses squeezing e-commerce pages into Facebook page tabs.

I think a lot of folks still don't notice the custom page tabs. They "like"
something and they see the items that get dumped into their stream as a result
or they occasionally go to the "wall" for that thing, and just don't see the
links in the sidebar to the custom pages.

Even if the company sets it as the default tab for their page, once the user
has "liked" the page, the default changes to the wall.

I think it's _because_ Facebook isn't officially enabling and supporting
e-commerce that it's not working out well.

------
tlianza
My startup operates in this space (<http://venpop.com>) and we see this kind
of thing all the time. One of the biggest problems is that the hype of Social
Commerce has driven large, big-name players to make large, big-dollar bets on
the space. They'll wind up spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a
fancy storefront, and they have _no chance_ of making their money back.

So, they shut them down... and it's giving the whole industry a bad name (via
articles like this) because of over-execution against unjustifiable
expectations.

Stores are making money on direct sales, but they're not raking it in. They're
doing a lot more by staying in touch with their customers, offering them
deals, and ensuring they stay top-of-mind throughout the year with their
likely holiday buyers. But, some retailers were determined to turn Facebook
into a Point of Sale destination... and they're so insistent on seeing returns
on the social "channel" that they'll actually start putting up links and
promotions to drive people to Facebook _instead of their own website._ It's
pretty irrational.

A few months ago our CEO also did an interview where he talked about what a
bad idea this was as well: [http://allthingsd.com/20110822/venpop-makes-a-
case-against-a...](http://allthingsd.com/20110822/venpop-makes-a-case-against-
adding-shopping-carts-on-facebook/)

------
a_a_r_o_n
You know those cardboard compacter/bailer units in the back of Home Depots and
such? The shelving crew puts their cardboard into them, it gets crushed and
comes out in neat, baled bundles.

I saw a truck version of one of them. It drives to your location and you or
they bale your cardboard.

It had a Facebook "Like Us" sticker on the side.

Seriously? For something you'll probably only need once, and probably didn't
even know existed before you needed it?

~~~
prawn
Marketers don't want to miss the bus so they jump on every bandwagon.

~~~
a_a_r_o_n
To drive home their message.

------
feralchimp
I need to buy shoes on Facebook like I need to share photos with other
shoppers at the mall.

------
orbitingpluto
If you want people to shop on FB you have to integrate it with the apathetic
zero-effort social climbing. That means luxury goods only.

Allow opt-ins that allow for ads like: so and so just bought an Omega watch
and is therefore clearly better than you!

Efforts in this direction were sidetracked by the Sharper Image(??) vibrator
fiasco a couple years back. Opt-ins are very very important.

Finally, the other option is to plug-in a Pinterest model into a FB app. Or
better yet piggyback onto Pinterest, replace affiliate links _again_ , and let
the litigation fly! (I have a gut feeling that a dozen projects like this must
already exist.)

~~~
wilfra
"piggyback onto Pinterest, replace affiliate links again, and let the
litigation fly! (I have a gut feeling that a dozen projects like this must
already exist.)"

Can you clarify what you mean by this? Specifically 'replace affiliate links
again'

~~~
Drbble
Syndicate pinterest content to FB, and change pinterest affiliate tag to
Facebook's. Basically out-pinterest pinterest.

------
dmils4
Facts: a few companies have failed to monetize facebook store fronts, so they
quit investing resources in them.

Conclusion: Facebook isn't a commerce platform that can succeed.

Facebook works for commerce. Most people just haven't figured out how yet.

------
josephjrobison
It seems that some companies like Payvment and Tabjuice have had some success
getting brands to buy in and use their platforms to sell to fans...but again
it just seems like fans are not interested in buying through Facebook. It
might just be an undeveloped technology, or its too soon to tell, maybe it
will reemerge as something different in the coming years. Also, consumers are
probably skeptical about buying through a social network for actual goods,
much the same way consumers were a bit reluctant to share their credit card
online in the early days of the internet.

------
chrischen
I wonder how the Facebook movie rentals thing is going... I think Facebook's
ultimate destiny is as an aggregator, sending people to more niche/targeted
sites.

------
alan_cx
My gut reaction to this is that it might be that overtly trying to sell stuff
of Facebook reminds users of the negative vibe that surrounds Facebook. It
sort of proves that Facebook is more about gathering profile data to make
effective targeted sales, rather then a social network tool.

------
pbreit
The whole idea of shopping _on_ Facebook was ridiculous from the beginning.
But I think Facebook understands this and is now taking itself to the stores.
Nik's post on the matter is a good read although he repeats the absurd
Atlantic revenue projections for Pinterest.

------
callmeed
Interesting. I'm rolling out and testing a tool that lets restaurants create
and sell their own Groupon-like daily deals from their Facebook page (using
their own Stripe acct).

Maybe it won't work ... we'll see

~~~
wtvanhest
Sounds interesting. One thing to consider is that part of groupons pitch is
that they will drive customers that don't know about the business to the
business. Don't give up, but do think of a way to get that function as part of
your value prop.

------
tommccabe
Yes, it's true that some brands have failed on Facebook- but to write off the
entire concept is overreaching. The problem, to date, hasn't been with
technology but with merchandising. Brands need to figure out the correct mix
of merchandising and marketing before they will be successful. Too many
retailers have just been vomiting up their entire catalog and that's what what
the consumer wants on Facebook.

Facebook will always remain a secondary or tertiary revenue stream for brands,
but there is money to be made in that space.

------
EGreg
Wait, facebook has stores? :P

------
zmonkeyz
Wow I didnt even know facebook had stores.

------
shingen
Analysts are amusing at times. So they speculated not that long ago that
Facebook was going to challenge Amazon.com as a retail destination? On what
planet was this going to happen?

Sure, and Amazon.com was going to challenge Google (A9!), and Amazon was going
to challenge eBay in auctions, and Google was going to challenge PayPal
(Google checkout!) and Microsoft was going to challenge Google (Bing!) and
Microsoft was going to challenge Intuit (Money!) and Microsoft was going to
challenge Oracle (SQL Server, Great Plains) and Facebook was going to kill
Twitter, and Microsoft was going to kill AOL with MSN, and and and and.

Who knew it's apparently so difficult to conquer the entire planet? Next
you're going to tell me that people don't want their car oil changed by
McDonald's.

~~~
danmaz74
You shouldn't need a marketing guru to know about the basics of positioning
and branding. Facebook is trying to be everything to everybody. They're not
going to succeed - not because they're not good at this or that, but because
you just CAN'T be the best at everything in the mind of your customers. Like
shingen said, people aren't going to want their car oil changed at McDonald's
- not if they have a choice.

Line extension is a tricky business. The good news is: this opens up a lot of
opportunities for startups.

~~~
bluesnowmonkey
Walmart is very nearly everything to a lot of people. People do get oil
changes, fast food, haircuts, furniture, household goods, food, banking,
prescriptions, movies, games, sporting goods, gardening supplies... The list
goes on. Convenience trumps almost anything.

~~~
shingen
And yet Walmart doesn't dominate haircuts at all, America is filled with a
network of 20,000 hair salons that outsell the hair salons in Walmart. People
usually have to schedule appointments with their hair salon - that is not
maximum convenience, it's maximum value. There are more banks outside of
Walmart than inside of Walmart, and that will continue to be the case. Walmart
is an extremely small part of the US furniture market. And so on.

Walmart wanted to take over the gasoline fill-up market. What could be more
convenient? Instead, gas stations have thrived living near Walmart, because
convenience doesn't always maximize value. Gas stations draw people with
gasoline, and make money on in-store purchases; that model didn't work for
Walmart, because gasoline doesn't draw people to spend an hour shopping at
Walmart, so the value-add was non-existent.

The notion of extreme convenience fails as often as it succeeds in my opinion.
It's why Walmart doesn't own every category. It's why GameStop exists.
Specialization can just as easily trump maximum convenience, you have to offer
enough of a value proposition. It's why Starbucks and Apple Stores exist; it's
also why dollar stores are thriving. It's why Dunkin Donuts and Krispy Kreme
exist despite Walmart selling donuts.

Obviously Walmart doesn't manufacture the drugs in the prescriptions; they
don't have a banking license; they don't make movies or games; they don't cut
your hair; they don't run the food franchises (eg Subway); they don't make
furniture; they don't make the groceries.

Walmart is merely a retailer, and with their physical space they sometimes act
like a mini mall. They don't even own their shipping network any longer. That
is not Walmart being everything to everybody. Quite the opposite, they're
admitting they can't be, so they let other companies ride their coattails to
optimize their sales per square foot.

~~~
bluesnowmonkey
Uh ok. I didn't say Walmart dominated haircuts in the US. I didn't say Walmart
dominated gasoline. I didn't say Walmart dominated donuts. I didn't say
Walmart manufactures their own drugs or operates as a bank or directly employs
the barbers there.

What I said was that for a _lot_ of people, Walmart is where they go for
nearly everything. There are a lot of places in small town America where a
Walmart moved in and a lot of the existing local retail and service businesses
shut down. It doesn't have much to do with positioning or branding. It's just
really easy to get everything done there.

The point is, it's possible. If Walmart can do it, maybe Facebook can too.

------
funkah
FB doesn't drive commerce? Tell that to Zynga.

~~~
tatsuke95
That's a pretty one dimensional definition of "commerce"; Zynga's product was
designed for the Facebook platform. The key thing is this:

> _"A year ago, investors hailed so-called F-commerce as the next big thing,
> speculating that the company had potential to threaten Amazon.com Inc.
> (AMZN) and PayPal Inc."_

Facebook is going public. They passed 500MM users _two years ago_. Everyone
and their grandmother, literally, knows what it is. So where are these stores
that are part of the next big thing? Can anyone name _one_ e-store that's
built around Facebook?

You'd think it'd be here by now. The tech business cycle peak is coming to an
end...so where is it?

