
Norman layout: less effort than QWERTY - lobo_tuerto
http://normanlayout.info/
======
greenspot
> 46% less effort than QWERTY

For whom?

For programmers?

For Vim users?

For Emacs users?

For Photoshop users?

For writers?

For English writers?

For Non-English writers?

For Mathematica users?

For LaTex users?

For my mother browsing the net on her iPad?

Everyone has a different use case, programmers use special characters more
than non-programmers, Vim users use different shortcuts than Photoshop users,
C programmers use the semicolon while Ruby programmers don't, American writers
use the letter y more than German ones and so on. Claiming 46% less effort
than qwerty needs further clarification.

Another thing which comes with all alternative mappings: you need to be able
to change all your devices (desktop, mobile) to your new mapping, otherwise
the constant mental switch from one to another keyboard layout won't bring you
any speed and flow improvement. My writing speed goes down to zero when I have
to write on a British layout (which is already super close to the US layout
compared to other countries).

~~~
loup-vaillant
> _Another thing which comes with all alternative mappings: you need to be
> able to change all your devices (desktop, mobile) to your new mapping,_

Desktop and laptop, sure. Mobile (which I assumed meant a palmtop such as a
smartphone), not so much. If you change the layout of your keyboard, you will
touch type. This is a very different kind of memory than the typical
hunt&peck. Phone virtual keyboards are even _more_ different.

In practice, my dekstop and laptop use the Bépo layout (a Dvorak-like for
French), and I kept Azerty (French Qwerty derivative) on my phone. The
discrepancy never caused me any problem.

~~~
greenspot
> Phone virtual keyboards are even more different.

Why? I type on an iPhone keyboard without any assistance as fast as on my
keyboard. I'm almost touch typing. Even if you have to look at the phone's
keyboard—you are way faster if the keys are at their expected place on the
keyboard (which is QWERTY in my case).

Edit: If you disagree don't downvote, rather express why you disagree

~~~
marssaxman
How on _earth_ do you accomplish that? Or, do you mean that you don't actually
touch type on a real keyboard either?

I believe that my years of touch typing experience are the reason I hate
typing on glass so much. I follow the text I'm writing and not the keys I'm
pressing, so with no physical feedback about the locations of the keys, my
text is an endless stream of aggravating typos requiring laborious correction.

I really miss my Blackberry. Every phone since has felt like the designers
calculated the experience to be just one notch less annoying than the
threshold at which I would _actually_ pound the damn thing to bits with a
sledgehammer.

------
morinted
I write on Norman. AMA?

I started in high school by switching to Dvorak, missed keyboard shortcuts,
switched to Colemak. Didn't like it, switched to Workman. Didn't like it,
found Norman. Haven't looked back. I also use Plover for stenography. I like
typing.

~~~
koolba
What makes a person switch to a non-default keyboard layout?

How much of a pain in the ass is it to deal with other people's keyboards
(which presumably are still QWERTY)?

Does it work for a split layout? (ex: Microsfot Natural Keyboard)

Any noticeable speed increase or decrease of wrist pain? I've all but
eliminated it via a split keyboard but always on the lookout for something
better.

~~~
jksmith
QWERTY was designed specifically not to be optimal so old typewriters with
character arms wouldn't get tangled up.

~~~
koolba
> QWERTY was designed specifically not to be optimal so old typewriters with
> character arms wouldn't get tangled up.

It's not that it was designed to not be optimal. It just was optimized for not
jamming v.s. pure typing speed.

The emphasis was on having keys on opposite sides of the keyboard based on the
frequency of their sequential occurrence in common text. The idea being that
it'd predominantly be a left/right/left/right sequence of the typewriter arms
hitting the page that would be less likely to jam then two arms right next to
each other.

If you factor in the time to "un-jam" the typewriter, I bet it'd be faster
than a modern layout (Dvorak, Colemak, Norman, etc) when typing on an old
school typewriter.

~~~
V-2
> _The emphasis was on having keys on opposite sides of the keyboard based on
> the frequency of their sequential occurrence in common text [..] If you
> factor in the time to "un-jam" the typewriter, I bet it'd be faster than a
> modern layout (Dvorak, Colemak, Norman, etc) when typing on an old school
> typewriter._

What do you base this on? Actually every source I looked up shows that QWERTY
doesn't rate well even in this aspect alone.

Eg.
[http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?keyboard_statistics](http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?keyboard_statistics)

> _In, QWERTY the left hand is used for <=2 consecutive strokes 68.5% of the
> time. The left and right sides of QWERTY are not balanced well, since the
> right-hand run length is better, with <=2 consecutive strokes 82.9% of the
> time._

Also see [http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-
analyzer/#/results](http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/results) (go
to Miscellaneous tab; I loaded chapter 1 of "Alice in Wonderland", but
selecting a different English text shouldn't make a significant statistical
difference of course).

Under "Consecutive Hand and Thumb Use" QWERTY is almost the worst - screenshot
for your convenience under
[http://i63.tinypic.com/2ykgx2v.jpg](http://i63.tinypic.com/2ykgx2v.jpg) \-
the lower the better.

~~~
koolba
> What do you base this on? Actually every source I looked up shows that
> QWERTY doesn't rate well even in this aspect alone.

It's based on a combination of late 1800s guess work and trial and error:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sholes_and_Glidden_typewriter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sholes_and_Glidden_typewriter)

~~~
V-2
Well, it only indicates this was their _intention_ , but not that the
execution of that intention was any good ;) in particular that they did a
better job than modern layouts, as you said you'd be willing to bet.

Note that it's not like high hand alternation factor (favoring often left-
right-left-right switches) is only good for not jamming typewriters, and
therefore dismissed as unimportant by keyboard layout designers in the modern
era.

Quite the contrary, it's essential for keyboard ergonomy; try typing "pumpkin
million stewardesses reverberates" a few times in a row... you'll feel the
problem that has nothing to do with your keyboard mechanism jamming ;)

------
V-2
I used carpalX for a while:
[http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/](http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/)

I did feel it was more convenient, but I never got up to my typing speed with
regular QWERTY (~130wpm), I peaked at about 60 or 80, can't remember. Surely I
would get there with time, but it would take time and be limited to English
anyway, which isn't my first language.

The website itself is very interesting though: the guy developed an algorithm
for assessing the quality of keyboard layouts, and another - based on
simulated annealing - to create his own. The theory behind this was more
interesting to me than the layout itself.

I played with Dvorak and Colemak too, but neither felt as comfy.

One great idea I adopted from Colemak though is setting that useless caps lock
key to backspace. That feels really great, especially the ability of deleting
the last word with only left hand; ctrl + backspace requires both hands on
normal keyboard layout, ctrl + capslock doesn't and feels very natural. It's
about the first thing I set up on every new machine I lay my hands on.

------
gamache
I wish my key layout were the problem.

~~~
thealistra
It's weird, as this is mostly a programmer-related community, I am a
programmer and I never found that typing is the bottleneck. Mostly the
thinking part is the bottleneck.

~~~
beat
Depends on what you're typing. For coding, it really doesn't make a
difference... so much of the typing is punctuation anyways. But for prose -
emails, blog posts, HN comments, etc - typing speed matters.

~~~
lj3
If it mattered that much, everybody would be typing steno instead of qwerty.

------
dest
User of bépo (more or less a French dvorak), I am frustrated by the locations
of x, c and v for cut, copy, paste. It's not easy to change those shortcuts in
software.

Norman took care of that by keeping those keys in place as in qwerty, which is
good.

------
floatboth
I type on Colemak — it already has many keyboard shortcuts same as QWERTY,
most common letters on the home row, and it's old and popular enough to be
included in many places out of the box (FreeBSD console, Xorg, macOS, iOS,
Android). I don't see the how Norman is better.

------
cryptos
As long as keyboards can not show a different layout (e. g. OLED keys), all
these efforts will not get much traction.

~~~
teach
Assuming you're using a mechanical keyboard like a proper human, you can
switch the keycaps around.

If you're using a laptop then I have no sympathy. You have chosen that life.

~~~
veritas3241
You can change the keys on a laptop usually. I'm using a 2013 Macbook Pro and
while it's disconcerting to pop the keys off, it can certainly be done.

~~~
teach
Good to know. I've never owned a laptop.

I have a desktop machine at work and another at home and just virtually never
have a need to do computer work when I'm not in one of those two places.

------
painted
what about the best layout for writing code? usually you use a lot of
characters that require 2 key press like (){}:"|<>?~$+...

~~~
chinathrow
This. And the Ctrl key so far away you easily overwork it.

~~~
rpxx
Definitely swap the Ctrl and Caps Lock in your OS. Ctrl on the home row makes
so much more sense for coding.

------
cgriswald
I'm genuinely curious about people who have actually switched typing layout
for day-to-day use. I've played with Dvorak for awhile, but I already type at
over 100 wpm with QWERTY, and I know whatever keyboard I'm likely to come into
contact with that is not my own is likely to be QWERTY. Add to that, the
changing of shortcuts, vim commands, etc. (which Norman attempts to address
somewhat) and I'm not strongly motivated to try.

Has anyone found it valuable to switch and if so, why?

~~~
thatswrong0
I switched in college to Colemak when I wanted to learn how to properly touch
type. Turns out that unlearning a weird QWERTY typing style developed to talk
shit during Age of Empires 2 games as a kid.. is hard. While trying to learn
QWERTY proper I also got frustrated by how inconvenient it felt. So I did some
research and decided that it was the perfect opportunity to try a different
layout.

If you already touch type quickly on QWERTY, I only think it would be worth it
if you wanted to potentially help with RSI.. although I'd try an ergonomic
keyboard first.

~~~
WorldMaker
I have a similar tale. Was having pains in my wrists in grad school and
decided it was way past time to unlearn my broken QWERTY touch typing
technique (in my case my left hand was shifted a key left such that the pinky
was homed primarily shift/caps/tab/ctrl and my right hand "wandered" to
compensate). Trying to relearn QWERTY itself just lead to falling back into
old habits. Forcing myself to learn an entirely different one (in my case,
also Colemak) was a huge part of making good habits stick and I've been glad I
did so.

------
anotheryou
I'm on neo. Sadly optimized german and german keyboards. It features really
lovely re-use of the keys for caps-lock and the alt-gr.

hover the layers here: [http://neo-layout.org/index_en.html](http://neo-
layout.org/index_en.html)

layer 4 is numpad, arrow keys, backspace, del escape. the layer above I don't
use, maybe handy for mathematicians.

Some hidden bonuses too: [caps]+[tab],[U],[C],[1],[+],[2],[=] produces: 1+2=3

------
adovenmuehle
I actually learned Norman a number of months ago to a pretty reasonable level
(90WPM) with [http://type-fu.com/](http://type-fu.com/).

However, I couldn't get over the hump to use it day to day. It's hard to
unlearn vim commands and all.

Strangely, I'm able to switch pretty effectively between qwerty and norman.
Also strange is if I think about typing in my mind, it's in the norman layout.

~~~
teilo
I found that it was possible to retain two layouts when switching, but at the
expense of efficiency. I could not make significant progress until I abandoned
any effort to retain my former layout. Having switched three times now, I
found this to be the case every time. I'm up in the 120s at this point.

------
dimman
For people who have other layouts than us on their keyboards, it's easy in
*nix to remap keys to get special chars.

For instance I use xmodmap to remap ALTGR + [ for å, ALTGR + ; for ö (+ SHIFT
produces capital letters of the same)

Example: xmodmap -e "keycode 108 = Mode_switch" && xmodmap -e "keycode 48 =
apostrophe quotedbl adiaeresis Adiaeresis"

This can of course be used for any kind of remapping in case your unhappy with
some key locations.

------
sliken
Seems like the best way to quantify such claims is a small daemon that listens
to your keystrokes. Which would use a config file to configure which finger
hits which key. Then with the logs you could record top typing speed, and
total finger distance.

Then users could contribute their speeds, accuracy (number of backspaces), and
finger distance for whatever mapping pleases them.

------
jerdavis
Even sidestepping the 46% less "For Whom" : Qwerty/dvorak/whatever .. No one
is really worried about cranking out Words per minute anymore. Nor is it going
to significantly change RSI injuries where one wasn't already going to happen.

------
libdong
I've always wonder why Norman, Dvorak etc. preform so much better than qwerty
by most metrics, but real-world studies showing that much of a difference are
rather lacking.

I can imagine it must be hard to design a good study comparing them when
almost everyone uses qwerty.

~~~
hashhar
I don't think the gains are manifested as speed. They come as better
ergonomics. Try this tool [1] to see how different layouts compare.

[1]: [http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-
analyzer/#/main](http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main)

------
nbanks
I'll stick to Dvorak until I get around to getting a
stenosaurus/stenoboard/opensteno or some other form of stenograph system. The
primary problem I've had with Dvorak over the years was learning a new layout
when I started French!

------
twoquestions
For those of you who type with a non-QWERTY layout and use either Emacs or Vim
bindings for your text editor, how have you adapted? You would think you'd
have to retool your muscle memory for the new bindings, is this the case?

~~~
lelag
I've been typing in Dvorak for over 10 years. I kept the same shortcut / vim
command as standard and I got used to the different physical position. For
some shortcut, it is indeed sub-optimal (ctrl+c / v in particular) but it
works without any additional configuration on any system / software.

That's also one of my reason of choosing US-Dvorak as an alternative to Qwerty
rather than more modern / efficient alternatives : it is available in most
operating systems out of the box.

------
wkearney99
They might as well name one Quixote, or Windmills. Because it's an equally
pointless gesture expecting anyone to take on the quest to use one.

------
nkkollaw
Kudos for the effort, but it's always going to be extremely hard getting
people to adopt a different layout.

~~~
Neliquat
Maybe easier than ever with most keyboards being virtual now...

~~~
nkkollaw
Most? Mine is plastic.

If you're talking about cell phones and tablets sure—but you certainly don't
type with both your hands like on your laptop...

------
red2awn
How much better is Norman than QWERTY? I am learning Dvorak right now but I
miss keyboard short cuts!

~~~
lelag
As I wrote in response to another comment, I think Dvorak is still the best
qwerty alternative because of it's ubiquitousness.

Once you make the switch to an alternative layout, having to write on a qwerty
layout becomes very unpleasant. Unfortunately, it is often common that you
have to type on a borrowed system and you want a layout you can easily switch
to.

Dvorak layout is standard in all operating system whereas most alternatives
are not and requires additional drivers / setup files.

While most people will let you change a system settings for a while, it will
be frowned upon if you start downloading strange software from the internet...

Switching to Dvorak and back on any modern OS take less than 20 seconds so
it's not an issue to setup even for a short time.

------
kutkloon7
I am much more bothered by the fact that I can't control my mouse and keyboard
at the same time. Still, I applaud efforts like this to make things better.
However, key layout seems to be one of those things that just won't change
once the majority uses one standard.

~~~
NikolaNovak
Isn't that exactly what Touchpoint (or whatever it's called these days) is
for?

My boss has been informed that laptop with a Touchpoint is a "condition of
employment" \- I cannot imagine working without one. I see people trying to
work with touchpads and it just makes me cry...

Sample Image: [https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-
content/uploads/2012/08/think...](https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-
content/uploads/2012/08/thinkpad_x1_carbon_touchpoint.jpg)

Edit: Apparently Wikipedia imaginatively calls it a "pointing stick" :>
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick)

~~~
fdim
I've never found it convenient to use. Touchpad with multi-touch (for
scrolling) is much better and for any serious work not going to switch from a
dedicated mouse (anywhere mx/mx2).I am not sure what people's issues are with
such input. Disclaimer: I am software developer

~~~
NikolaNovak
As I said above, for me, touchpad is slower and less precise (note that the
blue/middle button is set for scrolling on trackpoint by default and works
great).

I'm willing to admit that it's largely due to whatever a person is accustomed
to.

However, I still have to see somebody use Touchpad in a way that doesn't make
me cringe as to how long anything takes... maybe I need to find a more
proficient friend :)

------
kahrkunne
The thing about alternative keyboard layouts is that I can type on QWERTY at
138 words per minute and use both vim and emacs fluently. I recognize that
QWERTY is a bad keyboard layout, but switching to anything else would incur a
productivity loss that'd last for years.

