
Node.js is forked to Ayo.js (pronounced like “IO”) - akras14
https://github.com/ayojs/ayo
======
akras14
Reasons for fork:

"Repeated ToC violations by an authority figure went unaddressed."

[https://twitter.com/alicegoldfuss/status/900109726872068096](https://twitter.com/alicegoldfuss/status/900109726872068096)

Not sure what ToC is, but the alleged violations appear to be of Code of
Conduct.

Alleged violations are described here:
[https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212](https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212)

Most links are private, but here are the public ones:

[https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841](https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841)

[https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887790865766268928](https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887790865766268928)

[https://twitter.com/captainsafia/status/887782785221615618](https://twitter.com/captainsafia/status/887782785221615618)

[https://twitter.com/nodebotanist/status/887724138516951049](https://twitter.com/nodebotanist/status/887724138516951049)

~~~
jondubois
I don't see anything wrong with the tweets. I don't think Rod is a bad person,
he's been involved with Node.js for years.

Try working on an open source project for 5 years and then we can talk about
altruism.

~~~
curtisblaine
I don't think there's anything wrong with the tweets too. And it seems the
Node Technical Steering Committee had similar thoughts, since they rejected
the proposal of expelling Rod.

~~~
dragonwriter
The 60%/40% split on both proposed sanctions indicates that the TSC had no
simple unified view of the type you infer.

~~~
jondubois
Some people think and others just react, it's good to know that the majority
of people on the Node.js technical committee are thinkers.

~~~
ens
Wow, that's an incredibly rude and narrow-minded comment.

~~~
curtisblaine
Why "rude"?

~~~
jhasse
It's rude to suggest that the Yes-voters are non-thinkers.

------
anilgulecha
The way this fork has been presented clearly indicates this fork has no
future.

If you indeed have problems with the way nodejs is run, the first thing you do
with a fork is present it upfront in your fork, with some idea on how you're
going to go forward. All you see here is one issue potentially discussing some
bad policies or people. wishy washy.

And discussion in another thread is almost satirical -- discussing "lifetime"
of a benevolent dictator "for life". [1]

There's no clear leadership or goals for this fork.

[1]
[https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues/2](https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues/2)

------
kolme
They're flipping out because of a tweet, and all it had was a link to an
article against codes of conduct.

"Additionally he discussed private information from the moderation repo in the
public thread, which is explicitly against he moderation policy".

I don't like such secrecy. What's going on in there? Wasn't community so
important, why can't we know?

So what if that guy doesn't like CoCs? It is _fine_ for people to have other
opinions. This is another case of people over reacting over small stuff like
it happened with Brendan Eich or Douglas Crockford.

Oh gee, some people need to chill out.

~~~
anfedorov
While I definitely see where you are coming from, simplifying people's
emotional reactions to things to "some people need to chill out" belittles
their feelings in a way that isn't helpful. We can support folks who are being
attacked unfairly (as @rvagg appears to be from a cursory review of the
"evidence" against him) without belittling those who feel maligned.

~~~
mlsarecmg
Until you realize the same people that are crying out now have been doing this
before. Kas Perch, one of the agitators,

[https://twitter.com/nodebotanist/status/887724138516951049](https://twitter.com/nodebotanist/status/887724138516951049)

used the same tactic against Crockford last year (Nodevember conf), also
without any concrete evidence other than "he made me feel bad." If you go
through regular tweets of the other heckers like Kat,

[https://twitter.com/maybekatz/status/900414216888139776](https://twitter.com/maybekatz/status/900414216888139776)

they're breaking their own CoC daily, but that's apparently fine because
hating on white/men/straight/christian is considered PC.

Why do you give these sick people lee way is beyond me. They are bullies and
they should be recognized as such.

~~~
_Marak_
> They are bullies and they should be recognized as such.

100% agree. I've had to previously block both of these users you mentioned for
harassment over Twitter.

It got to the point where one of them started taking out of context
screenshots of my Twitter stream and attempting to rally other SJW twitter
users to send harassing messages to me.

I did my own research weeks ago and found that Rod didn't do anything wrong.
If anyone finds evidence to the contrary, please let me know.

------
convery
Line that stood out to me: "Rod retweeted in support of an inflammatory anti-
Code-of-Conduct article"

If you're not 100% onboard with the politics, you're a horrible person.

~~~
raverbashing
While I agree with this specific point, it seems that was the "least worse" of
that person's actions.

~~~
GenericsMotors
Could you please provide examples?

~~~
raverbashing
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15079139)

~~~
GenericsMotors
So this person's crime was being against CoCs? I seem to remember the Ruby
community being similarly against this...

------
Grue3
The issues page says it all:
[https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues](https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/issues) .
This is not a software project. There will be no actual code written.

~~~
mdekkers
Indeed. I had a look at all the brouhaha on the node.js github yesterday (I
love me some open-source soap-opera drama, especially when it involves non or
barely-coding SJW's - it's my guilty pleasure) and had a quick look at the
commit histories of the most vocal "This guy has to go!!!1!" proponents - the
code-to-noise ratio is unsurprisingly low.

------
Khaine
I'm sick of all this _drama_ that people create around this bullshit around
_wrongthink_ and the like.

Didn't they ever learn as kids sticks and stones may break my bones but names
will never hurt me?

Surely, in OSS tons of people are going to have different opinions about many
things, as long as they are respectful who cares what they think?

Seriously some people in this world need to eat a bag of concrete and harden
the fuck up.

~~~
mdekkers
ooh, are you saying that random people don't have a right to _feel safe_ when
voluntarily interacting with others online? Get ready for the angry hordes....

~~~
Khaine
People shouldn't be harassed online, but they should be open to having their
ideas, thoughts and beliefs challenged in a respectful way.

~~~
mdekkers
_People shouldn 't be harassed online, but they should be open to having their
ideas, thoughts and beliefs challenged in a respectful way._

My point was based on sarcasm :) Reading all the noise on GH yesterday, those
most vocal in having this guy kicked out are also screaming loudest about the
"need to feel safe" \- for me, this usually induces a gag reflex:

\- "I am going to find where you live and do something nasty to you" <\--
threat to safety \- "I am not sure about the value of a CoC" <\-- not a threat
to safety

In my personal view, all these fucking "name and shame" SJW's that sit on
their high fucking horses _judging_ people are a shameless pack of vicious
fucking bullies, shrouded in virtue-signalling.

If somebody goes around in projects making threats or being grossly offensive
in a general sense of the word, by all means address the situation. However,
this situation - like countless others - is simply a concerted bullying
effort.

I am not involved in node.js in any way, and stay very, very, fucking far away
from any kind of open source participation after going through something
similar with Sun and OpenOffice.org many years ago but this kind of bullshit
makes me rage.

~~~
Khaine
Sorry, I knew you were being sarcastic. I responded because I wanted to pre-
empt potential down voters.

I agree with what you said above. Most people who bleat about safe spaces are
the kind you need a safe space to get away from them.

------
joepie91_
This is probably the best possible course of action at this stage, even if I'm
extremely skeptical about the longevity of the fork. The ideal scenario is to
compartmentalize people who can't get along, like you would in a workplace -
having two separate forks that absorb each other's changes is not too far off
from that.

There's another reason too; there's a theory going around that there's a
sizable pool of potential competent contributors who are currently staying
away from the Node.js project (and other projects) because they feel excluded
(and this is commonly used as an argument as to why policies need to be
changed). This fork is going to show whether that group of people really
exists; if it does, then the fork will thrive, but if it does not, then it
will die.

I don't think there's much to do about this now other than wait and see it
play out. The results of this fork will become obvious soon enough, and it
seems that this at least will get everybody off each other's backs for a
while.

EDIT: Also, let's dial down the vitriol in this thread a little. There's no
point in getting outraged over something that'll resolve itself.

------
intellix
Open a perfectly fine PR that fixes/accomplishes something but prefix PR
comment with: "Hey guys,"

Sit back and watch as you're bombarded with threats and comments about being
pro-rape, a straight white male and the like

~~~
GoodbyeEarl
I've faced this exact scenario a few months back when I asked some questions
on Preact's Gitter. Pathetic. English is not even my first language, I swear I
didn't know I'd be offending someone by saying "hey guys" :/

~~~
GenericsMotors
It seems that as much as Silicon Valley preaches about being inclusive, they
have a strict american-centric view of absolutely everything.

I'm also not a native english speaker and it feels like I'm walking on
eggshells constantly.

~~~
Macha
Especially since in other countries, terms like guys aren't so heavily gender-
specific.

------
ishtu
Make sure you use proper [1] CoC next time you start new project. Proper as in
not easy to abuse for political reason or just because some SJW decided you
are wrong.

[1]
[https://github.com/fantasylandinst/fcop](https://github.com/fantasylandinst/fcop)

------
pier25
The more I code, the more I appreciate projects and languages that are not
based on a democratic committee and have a consistent unique single minded
vision.

I'd rather stick to a language/framework that aligns with my own preferences,
than stick to one that tries to please to a large group of people.

I feel this is the major problem with Javascript, Node, etc.

~~~
curtisblaine
People using node.js and not wanting this kind of bullshit should go on github
and open an issue to _remove_ the CoC. I would back it up for sure.

~~~
pier25
The code of conduct is unrelated to what I'm talking about.

I'm criticising design by committee.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee)

------
tedivm
For those asking what the reason of the fork is it looks like it has something
to do with a code of conduct violation by one of the node developers that the
steering committee voted to ignore. I have no idea what the story behind it as
it doesn't seem like anyone has actually published the full story.

Regardless of the reason, this seems like a premature announcement of the
project. There isn't a roadmap, list of distinguishing features, or the
guiding principles. More information is definitly needed here.

~~~
Pyxl101
Yes. Anyone can "fork" any code for any time and reason. Anyone can _announce_
that they're doing it.

What makes this newsworthy? Is it a _credible_ fork? What's the reason for the
fork? Who is contributing?

> Current Project Team Members

> To be written

Hmmm.

------
aquaflux
Newest development:
[https://github.com/nodejs/board/issues/67](https://github.com/nodejs/board/issues/67)

"We don't like the outcome, so we have to change the rules." Please note that
@ag_dubs that started the shit stirring after Rod's post sits on that board
and was part of that decision. Still we don't know what Rod did to her in the
first place.

------
kybernetikos
The previous fork was successful because a lot of the developers went with the
fork and it was fulfilling an unserviced need in the community for a node
built on newer versions of v8. Does anyone know if this fork has much of a
chance of survival?

~~~
LoSboccacc
didn't follow the node development closely, what was this fork?

~~~
photonios
It was called io.js.

~~~
zeronight
And this one is pronounced the same way?

That won't be confusing in conversation.

------
readittwice
First: I like the name!

That said, it is a bit unfortunate to fork or at least to try to fork a
project like Node.js over these reasons. Although it is quite likely that the
fork was mainly created to pressure the Node-devs to remove rvagg from the
project after all.

What puzzles me: Even if we agree that rvagg violated the Code of Conduct, I
am not sure that this should be enough to remove him from the TSC (Technical
Steering Committee). Here are the alleged violations, so that you can decide
for yourself:
[https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212](https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212).

~~~
drspacemonkey
"Rod should have predicted the kind of response this tweet received"

I was on the fence until I hit that part. The tacit admission that they're
holding him responsible for what other people are saying on Twitter is all I
need to know. They wanna feel like righteous warriors defeating evil.

~~~
smsm42
Heads I win, tails you lose situation. If you say something uncivil, you are
guilty. If you are perfectly reasonable and somebody trolls and curses you out
on twitter, you are still guilty, because you "should have predicted" they'd
do that if you disagree with them.

------
sand500
Since the comments say this is probably due to political reasons, I feel like
this fork would mean a lot more if it included contributions that were
rejected by nodejs as well as a communitity of contributors to keep this fork
active.

------
tuananh
If we applied this CoC to Linux, Linus is probably long gone by now.

~~~
thrillgore
There was a CoC on Drupal and surprisingly it wasn't until a few months ago it
became a serious issue. Sometimes people can put the smarm aside and be
legitimately helpful.

------
bluepnume
I've been clicking around on twitter and github for five minutes and there
seems to be zero specifics about what actually happened.

What's with the secrecy? Not saying this is a non-issue, but the best way to
present your issue as a non-issue is to be this vague about what you're
complaining about.

------
stesch
Would you rather use good code by a shitty person or shitty code by a good
person?

~~~
vermontdevil
Good code. Shitty people are replaceable. Good code are priceless.

------
tree_of_item
Are they seriously forking the project because they don't like one person
involved in it?

~~~
SolarNet
And that the rest of the community is supporting his alleged abusiveness (e.g.
by voting to keep him on board). It's not just because they dislike him, it's
because the community in general seems fine with his kind of behavior.

Not that I am supporting it, just explaining why in their view this is bigger
than just him.

------
weitzj
Blog post: [https://medium.com/@mylesborins/effective-immediately-i-
am-s...](https://medium.com/@mylesborins/effective-immediately-i-am-stepping-
down-from-the-nodejs-tsc-3df37c6ccbae)

------
thrillgore
Every time I see something about NodeJS, an image of a flaming dumpster
overflowing with left-padded trash comes to mind.

I've never seen a technology deep sixed not by its technology, but by its
politics and ideology.

------
rkeene2
Node.js can, of course, merge in any changes of merit that this fork produces.
Especially since the fork isn't for technical reasons they are unlikely to
diverge in fundamental ways... Atleast until the fork is abandoned entirely
for providing no value over node.js -- especially if they don't keep up with
the upstream progress.

~~~
4bpp
And, of course, so can the fork with all changes of merit that the mainline
project produces. In the end, the decision between the two will be based on
momentum and politics (as in: will the fork produce enough shiny Medium posts
and HN buzz to get people to switch to them, or pressure Node into
backpedalling and getting rid of Vagg?), unless the fork actually can't find
enough competent technical people to just keep track of and merge the mainline
changes.

~~~
rkeene2
I was assuming the fork wouldn't consume code from the project that they
disliked for political reasons, since it would indicate an admission that the
main-project was being successful and executing with their current policies
and staff.

------
tuananh
> Humans are more important than APIs and Benchmarks.

[https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/blob/zkat/values/VALUES.md](https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/blob/zkat/values/VALUES.md)

------
nmbr213
What, again?

~~~
egeozcan
If it ends up having a similar impact like IO.js, I would say, why not. Fork
it every other month, I wouldn't care.

If this is less "technical issues need to be resolved and we need to be agile"
and more "I hate the other person so I won't work with him/her" though, then
it would just cause problems all around the community.

------
styfle
rvagg responds:

[https://github.com/nodejs/CTC/issues/165#issuecomment-324798...](https://github.com/nodejs/CTC/issues/165#issuecomment-324798494)

------
deft
This literally already happened once over a minor argument and a week later
they got back together. Why...?

------
uitgewis
Also related to this: [https://medium.com/@mylesborins/effective-immediately-
i-am-s...](https://medium.com/@mylesborins/effective-immediately-i-am-
stepping-down-from-the-nodejs-tsc-3df37c6ccbae)

------
lavamantis
Specific issues causing Ayo's creation: [https://thenewstack.io/node-js-
forked-complaints-repeated-ha...](https://thenewstack.io/node-js-forked-
complaints-repeated-harassment/)

------
quxbar
I have yet to find any good reason for this fork, but I wish the forkers all
the best. If they can actually make something better, I'm sure we'll switch.
Until then I see no reason to not support Node.

------
ilaksh
What's the reason they forked/main difference from Node.js?

~~~
marksomnian
From an issue:

> I'd be open to re-merging if and when the problems plaguing Node.js are
> resolved. Problematic people removed; use of "policy" as an excuse ended;
> power structures reorganized to emphasize community over tech. So far though
> it seems like there's little desire to fix these problems from those with
> the power to do so.

~~~
mdekkers
_emphasize community over tech_

...speechless.

 _client:_ Why is there only clear text and flashing ads on my screen?

 _developer:_ Oh, yes - we implemented the new ayo libraries!

 _client:_ This looks like shit. Give me my site back!

 _developer:_ but, you don't _understand_! The new libraries are great, they
emphasize community over tech!

 _client:_ [......]

 _client:_ [calls her P.A.] Richard, go find me a new tech team.

------
riston
We are fixing too many problems by forking, please stop!

------
fvdessen
What is the reason for the fork ?

~~~
hasenj
SJW rage, it seems.

------
cycomachead
Here we go again... ?

Then again, this doesn't seem anywhere near as crazy as the IO.js days.

------
kekus_maxima
Why not Aye.js? IYKWIM

------
quickthrower2
Aye! Oh!

~~~
gardnr
Ever since SCSI I can't say that anyone will have success trying to encourage
people to pronounce their project names in a certain way.

Good luck to them though and anything that improves the node space is welcome
in my book. Forks included.

~~~
gardnr
Relevant wikipedia article:

> Almost a full day was devoted to agreeing to name the standard "Small
> Computer System Interface", which Boucher intended to be pronounced "sexy",
> but ENDL's Dal Allan pronounced the new acronym as "scuzzy" and that stuck.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI)

~~~
thrillgore
Scuzzy has more character to it.

I'll never pronounce GIF as JIF though.

------
hasenj
Sounds like BS.

Possibly relevant:

Eric S. Raymond: Why Hackers Must Eject the SJWs (2015)

[http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918](http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918)

~~~
tomjakubowski
Good christ, I can't believe I'm responding to an ESR blog post, but this
"djangoconcardiff" account joined Github [1] the same day every comment in
that thread was posted… which was, by the way, _months_ after the DjangoCon in
Cardiff wrapped up. How do people not see that whole incident as the bad-faith
troll that it clearly is?

[1]:
[https://archive.is/UDFZt#selection-193.0-193.16](https://archive.is/UDFZt#selection-193.0-193.16)

~~~
hasenj
It clearly is bad-faith. Is it just a random troll? Not likely, since there
are several other similar incidents.

------
hungerstrike
Oh good, I'm glad these SJWs won't be involved in Node.js anymore. Thanks!

~~~
TG94
Amen

------
anotherbrownguy
Brace yourself. SJWs are coming after software projects this year.

~~~
amiga-workbench
I'm pleasantly surprised PHP has remained largely SJW free, probably because
it's not trendy.

I imagine microcontroller software development stays free of them too, largely
because of the barrier to entry.

~~~
curtisblaine
That's why I think entering development should be harder. This "everyone can
code" trend only resulted in worse job candidates and a lot of people doing
politics instead of coding.

~~~
anotherbrownguy
I think that is wrong way to think about it. If, say, we do enforce some
"barrier to entry", it would probably be some education and certification to
be eligible for software development. The SJWs will make sure that they will
be prioritized to be eligible for those certificates, even if it means to
change the eligibility criteria to do so. And then they can basically use it
to kick everyone out of software development, except for SJWs.

I think we should keep it as it is and wait it out. They will find something
else in a couple of years and move on.

~~~
curtisblaine
I enforce a "barrier to entry" myself when I interview someone though. If
they're less than highly competent, I don't allow them to join the company I'm
interviewing for. Others have this mentality of "letting everyone in, we'll
train them later", especially if doing so serves other (non-technical)
political or social agendas.

------
caffed
He seems like a candidate for being a douchey provocateur. Tech-libertarian
too?

It's hard enough having the JS community taken seriously with the zeitgeist
framework changing too quickly.

