
Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing - shayna_walsh
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/08/internet-turns-on-white-supremacists-and-neo-nazis-with-doxing-phishing/
======
ethbro
Aside from the obvious _everything_ that's troubling about the rise of white
supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me.

Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible
people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions
taken against them?

 _" I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
say it"_, etc. free speech is one facet. But I'm focusing on actions rather
than speech here.

Just because someone is a racist, sexist, * ist piece of shit doesn't give
someone else the right to shoot them in cold blood... does it? And if not,
then how far back does that walk before our response is back at "reasonable
American citizens striving to live in a harmonious culture that allows for
diversity"?

I feel like my spidey sense is going off when I listen to interviews and get
the sense that the person speaking would tell blatant lies without missing a
beat to win the argument, because they believe their cause is that just. And
I've been getting that prickling a lot when I hear both sides speak about
their positions. Which terrifies the hell out of me.

Any thoughts / personal moral positions or frameworks welcome. I'm honestly
looking for a way to find a shred of solid footing here that makes me feel
more morally comfortable than "white supremacy is bad, therefore _anything_
done against white supremacists is good."

~~~
stronglikedan
I personally believe people should be allowed to say whatever they want, and
violence is never acceptable as a response. We've been preventing hate groups
from having a platform for decades, and recent events are only giving them
one. It is law enforcement's job to enforce any laws that are broken by
_actions of individuals_ , within these groups or otherwise, and the justice
system's job to prosecute them to the extent of the law.

Trying to silence words that some may find offensive is a slippery slope,
because no matter who you are or what you say, there is _always_ someone that
will be offended by it. Attempting to win hearts and minds through civil
discourse, and accepting the reality that some people will always be
unreachable, is IMHO the only way to move forward without irreparably dividing
our society, because "A house divided against itself cannot stand".

Hate only breeds hate, and there will always be naturally evil people. Ignore
the haters' speech, and keep preaching love an respect. Those that can come
around will, and those that can't won't have a voice unless we give it to
them.

~~~
liberte82
We hanged Nazis after WW2. Do you believe this was the appropriate action?

~~~
concede_pluto
We hanged proven murderers, not every member of an odious political party.

~~~
ethbro
We didn't hang proven murderers on our side.

------
argv_empty
_Many fear being outed from photos_

It's not "outing" once you've already been doing it in public.

------
jwilk
For people (like me) who have trouble parsing the title:

turn on = become hostile towards

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
Two quotes:

"But you are, perhaps, ready to ask, "What has this to do with the
perpetuation of our political institutions?" I answer, it has much to do with
it. Its direct consequences are, comparatively speaking, but a small evil; and
much of its danger consists, in the proneness of our minds, to regard its
direct, as its only consequences. Abstractly considered, the hanging of the
gamblers at Vicksburg, was of but little consequence. They constitute a
portion of population, that is worse than useless in any community; and their
death, if no pernicious example be set by it, is never matter of reasonable
regret with any one. If they were annually swept, from the stage of existence,
by the plague or small pox, honest men would, perhaps, be much profited, by
the operation.--Similar too, is the correct reasoning, in regard to the
burning of the negro at St. Louis. He had forfeited his life, by the
perpetration of an outrageous murder, upon one of the most worthy and
respectable citizens of the city; and had not he died as he did, he must have
died by the sentence of the law, in a very short time afterwards. As to him
alone, it was as well the way it was, as it could otherwise have been.--But
the example in either case, was fearful.--When men take it in their heads to
day, to hang gamblers, or burn murderers, they should recollect, that, in the
confusion usually attending such transactions, they will be as likely to hang
or burn some one who is neither a gambler nor a murderer as one who is; and
that, acting upon the example they set, the mob of to-morrow, may, and
probably will, hang or burn some of them by the very same mistake. And not
only so; the innocent, those who have ever set their faces against violations
of law in every shape, alike with the guilty, fall victims to the ravages of
mob law; and thus it goes on, step by step, till all the walls erected for the
defense of the persons and property of individuals, are trodden down, and
disregarded. But all this even, is not the full extent of the evil.--By such
examples, by instances of the perpetrators of such acts going unpunished, the
lawless in spirit, are encouraged to become lawless in practice; and having
been used to no restraint, but dread of punishment, they thus become,
absolutely unrestrained.--Having ever regarded Government as their deadliest
bane, they make a jubilee of the suspension of its operations; and pray for
nothing so much, as its total annihilation. While, on the other hand, good
men, men who love tranquility, who desire to abide by the laws, and enjoy
their benefits, who would gladly spill their blood in the defense of their
country; seeing their property destroyed; their families insulted, and their
lives endangered; their persons injured; and seeing nothing in prospect that
forebodes a change for the better; become tired of, and disgusted with, a
Government that offers them no protection; and are not much averse to a change
in which they imagine they have nothing to lose. Thus, then, by the operation
of this mobocractic spirit, which all must admit, is now abroad in the land,
the strongest bulwark of any Government, and particularly of those constituted
like ours, may effectually be broken down and destroyed--I mean the attachment
of the People. Whenever this effect shall be produced among us; whenever the
vicious portion of population shall be permitted to gather in bands of
hundreds and thousands, and burn churches, ravage and rob provision-stores,
throw printing presses into rivers, shoot editors, and hang and burn obnoxious
persons at pleasure, and with impunity; depend on it, this Government cannot
last. By such things, the feelings of the best citizens will become more or
less alienated from it; and thus it will be left without friends, or with too
few, and those few too weak, to make their friendship effectual. At such a
time and under such circumstances, men of sufficient talent and ambition will
not be wanting to seize the opportunity, strike the blow, and overturn that
fair fabric, which for the last half century, has been the fondest hope, of
the lovers of freedom, throughout the world."

Abraham Lincoln, Lyceum address

The next quote is from A Man for all seasons.

William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!

Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to
get after the Devil?

William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!

Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned
'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This
country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not
God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you
really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes,
I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

If we have learned anything from Trump's election, it is that people who we
may think unlikely to come to power, can come to power. If we tear up our
principles of free speech and rule of law to after the Nazis, what will we
hide behind when would be authoritarians come to power? The principle of free
speech is what allows people to protest Trump and for newspapers to criticize
him. The rule of law makes the police protect even those protestors they
disagree with from violence. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get
it.

------
grb423
People are sick and tired of anti-white (pro-nonwhite) de jure policies and
replacement immigration. They feel this country is their rightful homeland and
are angry that they had no vote in being replaced. These reactions could have
been predicted and were. I guess you can call that "racist" and "white
supremacist" but the name-calling just eggs them on and is "not an argument."
Instead, let's explain why the white era that started in Athens is now over
and that's just natural progress. And if they are genocided in the process
well that would be sad. Or I guess we could just dox them.

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
WTF is this argument? Where is the replacement happening? A Mexican sneaks
across the border and now does my gardening. Who did he replace?

How is the era of Athens over, because a brown person is allowed to attend my
University and learn about Plato and Socrates while sitting next to me?

~~~
grb423
They see the drip-drip-drip of "brown" people unfurling the Mexican flag,
municipal swimming pools with men-only hours and University foot baths.

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miriam-rosenbaum/womens-
only-s...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miriam-rosenbaum/womens-only-
swimming-hour_b_10993632.html)

[http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/muslim-footbaths-
threaten...](http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/muslim-footbaths-threaten-
america-social-fabric-article-1.311574)

[http://www.newsweek.com/white-nationalists-are-right-
america...](http://www.newsweek.com/white-nationalists-are-right-america-
becoming-less-white-651541)

