
OR Union Wants Voters to Limit Grocers to Two Self-Checkout Stations per Store - marklyon
https://www.wweek.com/news/state/2019/09/04/oregon-labor-union-wants-voters-to-limit-grocers-to-two-self-checkout-stations-per-store/
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gnusty_gnurc
I wonder whether people complained about "harm to the community" when
automobiles came on the scene. The poor horse-and-buggy drivers!

~~~
defen
In retrospect a better argument may have been the millions of people killed...
according to Wikipedia there have been 3,740,769 motor vehicle fatalities in
the US in the past century.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year)

~~~
tzs
...or maybe not.

The per capita death rate from horses and horse drawn vehicles in NYC in 1900
was higher than the per capita death rate from cars in 2003. Same for Chicago
comparing horses in 1916 to cars in 1997 [1].

Horse related deaths in early 20th century England and Wales were close to
late 20th century rates for cars [2]. That article does point out that we are
better at treating people nowadays, so it is possible that many of the horse
related fatalities could be people that would have been saved nowadays.

A few accounts of the dangers in the pre-car days [3].

[1] [https://legallysociable.com/2012/09/07/figures-more-
deaths-p...](https://legallysociable.com/2012/09/07/figures-more-deaths-per-
capita-in-horse-accidents-in-nyc-in-1900-than-in-auto-accidents-today/)

[2] [https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/31/cars-and-
horse...](https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/31/cars-and-horses)

[3]
[https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20110107/NEWS/1010703...](https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20110107/NEWS/101070332)

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mikestew
Same folks that won’t let you pump your own gas. At least motorcycles are
exempt from that silliness now.

~~~
sys_64738
Gasoline is more dangerous in NJ than other states.

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seiko988
There's a few articles floating around that say shoplifting is greater at self
checkouts[1], but apparently its not enough to keep these jobs around without
regulatory distortion.

One way of thinking about it is that the store shifts responsibility to both
the shopper and the police (in the case of shoplifting) but the police might
not agree to the additional workload [2]

1
[https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/stealin...](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/stealing-
from-self-checkout/550940/)

2 [https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2016/05/14/shoplifting-
cal...](https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2016/05/14/shoplifting-california-
prop-47-reduced-penalties/)

~~~
defertoreptar
The price of goods is a function of all of the costs associated with selling,
so I think the cost in additional theft is ultimately put on the honest
customers. That may not be such a terrible result though, since self checkout
reduces cost in the first place. Since many customers prefer to save time /
avoid human interaction by self checkout, it's probably a net gain either way
you cut it.

~~~
seiko988
>>additional theft is ultimately put on the honest customers.

That's true up until a certain point, but eventually the business is no longer
profitable. I think this explains many 'food deserts' in low income areas

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jmathai
I purposely checkout with human cashiers despite the fact that self-checkout
is almost always faster.

Sometimes technology provides so much benefit that it's a no-brainer to adopt.
I don't think that's the case for self-checkout stations. They're marginally
better but come at a cost that I don't believe is worth it.

A single self-checkout station probably replaces 2 cashiers. Not to mention
they take up less space. It makes a lot of sense for the store owners but I
don't think it makes much sense for the community.

~~~
hellisothers
There are some unintended side effects of self checkout lines you’re not
considering that in my experience make them considerably (>2x) faster. They
self select for people who have fewer items, are competent at using the
machine, and are incentivized to be quick. Check outs manned with people are
always slammed with customers with piles of groceries and even the express
lane is staffed with a person who has no incentive to scan quickly.

~~~
jmathai
I agree there's a lot of benefits to self checkout and I think that's the
future we're headed towards --- and I don't think that's a bad thing.

I was only trying to say that technology impacts people in good and bad ways
and we should have a holistic view of it when we think about how we, as a
society, adopt and legislate it.

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lidHanteyk
As an Oregonian, I'm not bothered by this.

As it is, grocers typically have to have a single person at the helm of each
bank of four to six machines. The machines are prone to requiring manual
overrides, and often the single machine-herder is overwhelmed trying to keep
up; I hear their grumbles. I find myself examining my basket while heading
towards checkout and considering whether I think that a human cashier would
give a smoother experience.

Moreover, whether grocers have these machines is usually a function of their
size. Smaller grocers in Oregon, like Green Zebra, don't have the machines,
while larger grocers do, like Safeway and Walmart. I have had conversations
with employees at the latter stores. The machines were ordained, installed,
and configured by corporate order, with only a small amount of local training.

Oregonian voters have immense power to alter the law, and so many independent
groups aim to refer decisions directly to the voters, rather than trying to
work within the bipartisan legislature. In this case, the group will have to
successfully convince tens of thousands of us to petition the State to put it
on the ballot. I will probably sign the petition.

I read the text. It's not bad. There's an exemption for stores which sell only
alcohol or only cannabis; liquor stores and dispensaries are a thing in
Oregon, but I haven't seen any which have automated checkout robots. Indeed,
I'm pretty sure that the liquor law requires humans in that checkout process.
While a union is lobbying for this, the union does not stand to directly
benefit; its members certainly will, but there's nothing that privileges the
union, and both anti-union Walmart and employee-owned Winco will have to obey
this law.

~~~
ch_123
> As it is, grocers typically have to have a single person at the helm of each
> bank of four to six machines. The machines are prone to requiring manual
> overrides, and often the single machine-herder is overwhelmed trying to keep
> up; I hear their grumbles. I find myself examining my basket while heading
> towards checkout and considering whether I think that a human cashier would
> give a smoother experience.

I simply cannot understand why this means that there needs to be _legislation_
to limit the amount of self service machines. Presumably if it's really as bad
as you describe, there's a strong business case to fix it? Since the situation
you describe makes it sound like it has the potential to hurt business.

If you are going to legislate for anything, legislate for installing machines
which work. They exist - I use them all the time without any issues.

> I have had conversations with employees at the latter stores. The machines
> were ordained, installed, and configured by corporate order, with only a
> small amount of local training.

If the machines somehow failed to operate properly in Oregon but worked
elsewhere, this would be a fair point... but presumably they are liable to
break down in the same manner, causing the same issues?

~~~
lidHanteyk
The machines often can't come in quantities of only one or two stations, so
this actually would have the immediate effect of _banning_ most stations, and
requiring retrofitting. So keep in mind that we're actually slapping the
businesses in question a bit harder than you might think.

And yeah, cry me a river for Walmart. In Oregon, we're capable of prioritizing
the good of the community over business interests. Several of the findings
orient around the fact that senior citizens have trouble using the machines to
purchase groceries. Heck, _I_ have trouble using the machines to purchase
groceries; I can empathize _and_ sympathize.

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nordsieck
I wonder how this law would interact with a fully automated store like Amazon
Go: technically there are no checkout stations, human or otherwise.

~~~
lidHanteyk
A straightforward reading of
[http://oregonvotes.org/irr/2020/041text.pdf](http://oregonvotes.org/irr/2020/041text.pdf)
suggests that any Amazon Go location would be restricted to two checkout
lanes, both automated. Amazon would likely argue that they have only one
checkout lane per location, but that it is quite a speedy lane. The text uses
the undefined word "station"; Amazon might well argue that they don't have any
stations for their process. Amazon Go is partially affected by the findings,
as well, but we already know that Go is obviously a tantalizing shoplifting
target.

As somebody who might sign the petition for, vote for, and be affected by this
law, this all seems reasonable. Amazon presumably wants their Go locations to
have no grocer staff whatsoever, and only a token of security staff and
restocking robots. Outlawing _that_ seems difficult and not worthwhile. I
think that we should be sympathetic towards automated bodegas; they won't be
able to replace Plaid Pantry and 7-Eleven anytime soon in Oregon, unless they
can sell tobacco, booze, lottery tickets, Hop cards, hot food, or any of those
other things that the law requires a live human employee behind the counter to
vend.

~~~
nordsieck
> they won't be able to replace Plaid Pantry and 7-Eleven anytime soon in
> Oregon, unless they can sell tobacco, booze, lottery tickets, Hop cards, hot
> food, or any of those other things that the law requires a live human
> employee behind the counter to vend.

I've been to a regular grocery store that had a store-within-a-store that sold
alcohol. That seems like a reasonable solution if Amazon wanted to sell
tobacco, booze, lottery tickets or hop cards. All of those products are high
margin, low shelf space requirements and are shelf stable.

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sys_64738
Various European countries have high unemployment rates in youths which
doesn’t do anyone any good at all. That’s where the US is headed as these
retail checkout jobs cement societal norms in generations of children. Take
them away and who knows how it’ll break down.

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loco5niner
This is beyond ridiculous. It's on par with disallowing barcodes so checkers
can input them by hand.

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samdunham
Another way to put this is, "OR Union wants to reduce available work for self-
checkout maintenance workers."

