
When We Eat, or Don’t Eat, May Be Critical for Health - danso
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/24/well/when-we-eat-or-dont-eat-may-be-critical-for-health.html
======
cageface
Anecdotally I’ve noticed some benefits from skipping breakfast and eating only
within an eight hour window. My blood sugar and energy levels are more even
throughout the day, I can skip a meal if necessary when traveling or something
without feeling too hungry, and I’ve lost a few pounds I was having a hard
time getting rid of any other way.

In the morning I just drink coffee black and then have a somewhat early lunch
and dinner. Maybe it would be more effective to skip dinner instead but this
seems to be working.

~~~
saiya-jin
Had a friend in university, he did military service for 1 year and the only
thing he had for breakfast during that time was a strong black coffee without
any sugar nor milk.

He screwed up his digestive tract for good - there is apparently something in
coffee that is quite aggressive on stomach and gets neutralized when mixed
with any sugar/milk/food. He will never be able to eat vast array of common
foods - things like marmelades and other basic food. Sorry I don't have any
further info, has been few years ago.

He might have some unique predisposition for this, don't know, but better be
careful and put at least some milk in it. It makes it much more filling anyway

~~~
samatman
For another anecdote, I have been drinking black coffee, and only black
coffee, for the first four to six hours of the day. Sometimes water as well.

I have done this for about six years without damaging my digestion in any
detectable way. I would bet money your friend has or had a Helicobacter pylori
infection; treatment is antibiotics.

~~~
fauigerzigerk
I tried the same for for about 6 months but had to stop because of stomach
ache. I'm not infected with helicobacter pylori.

~~~
samatman
Sure, people differ greatly in acid sensitivity and other factors that make no
one diet right for everyone.

The stomach ache went away when you quit? If not... are you sure you don't
have helicobacter pylori?

~~~
fauigerzigerk
Yes it went away and yes I was tested multiple times for helicobacter pylori.

------
everdev
I just tried intermittent fasting (16hr fast, 8hr feeding window). It was very
challenging at first and I had to catch myself multiple times opening the
cupboard at night by habit, but it did help me realize how much snacking I
really do.

My fat % is way down and muscle mass up, so it's been very positive so far and
much easier after week 2 when my body fully adapted to the new eating style.

~~~
bad_user
N.B. fasting in general works best if you are eating a high fat diet, instead
of eating a lot a carbohydrates. You might also need more salt in your diet,
including during your fasting ;-)

Carbohydrates leads to raised insulin levels, which inhibits the consumption
of fat from your fat store. Our body is pretty smart, so when insulin goes
down, it begins to consume your fat for energy, a metabolic state called
_ketosis_.

But until that insulin goes down, what you're experiencing is the dreaded
_keto flu_. So you can experience fatigue, dizziness, even head aches ...
which if serious are not normal and you should stop your fast ;-)

Anyway, for successful fasting what I found is this:

1\. eat high fat, low carbs meals; if you can't go full keto, at least do that
just before starting your fast

2\. you might get an electrolytes imbalance, which is THE reason for dizziness
and headaches: the solution is to take salt supplements — e.g. right now I'm
in my second day of water fasting, when I woke up I felt a little dizzy, but
took 4 grams of salt (about one teaspoon) and now I feel great; there are also
"salt tablets" on the market btw, which are easier to swallow

NOTE: there's science behind the keto diet, studies and high profile medics
backing it up, but there's also a lot of denial about it. One good book
describing what the deal is with _insulin resistance_ , why it makes us fat
and why the keto diet is healthy would be the "The Obesity Code: Unlocking the
Secrets of Weight Loss" by Dr. Jason Fung.

Here's the podcast dedicated to it, talking of keto and fasting; it's a great
podcast: [http://obesitycodepodcast.com](http://obesitycodepodcast.com)

~~~
yellow_viper
What is N.B fasting?

I do 16/8 I.F fasting on a HCLF diet and have never experienced any of those
issues.

There is plenty of evidence showing the benefits of ketosis on the body, and
benefits from people switching from SAD to Keto reversing diabetes and the
likes - but that's more down to calorie restriction. With regular keto you're
raising your risk long-term for diabetes, heart-disease, cancer and stroke due
to increased meat/dairy/egg consumption.

[https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-insulin-
resista...](https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-insulin-resistance/)

You're far better just eating a varied diet with as little animal produce as
possible and doing I.F which releases 5x the amount of ketones than the keto
diet.

~~~
bad_user
> _I do 16 /8 I.F fasting_

That's not enough to trigger those symptoms for many people, as it depends on
how much salt you have in your diet and your own metabolism of course. But do
a 36 to a 72 hours fasting, which is otherwise a very healthy thing to do from
time to time and you'll experience it head on.

>> " _that 's more down to calorie restriction_"

Why did the plane crash? Due to gravity. What should the plane have done to
not go down? It should've had more lift.

Now tell me, how does that help in establishing why the plane actually crashed
and what to do to solve it? That's how " _calorie restriction_ " sounds as an
explanation, being a _prima facie_ observation. Of course you're reducing
calories. But _HOW_ you're reducing those calories makes all the difference.

Another one: Why do people get rich? Because their spending are less than
their earnings. What should people do to get rich? They should cut their
spending or raise their earnings. Well duh! But it's a totally useless
observation, isn't it?

>> " _With regular keto you 're raising your risk long-term for diabetes,
heart-disease, cancer and stroke due to increased meat/dairy/egg
consumption._"

That's absolute bullshit.

Here's one of the largest studies on dietary fat, done on 50,000 women,
spanning for 8 years, showing that going low fat did absolutely nothing to
prevent heart disease:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28515068](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28515068)

I also wish people would stop posting YouTube videos btw. I don't watch
YouTube bullshit. Post links to studies that I can verify.

~~~
yellow_viper
>Now tell me, how does that help in establishing why the plane actually
crashed and what to do to solve it? That's how "calorie restriction" sounds as
an explanation, being a prima facie observation. Of course you're reducing
calories. But HOW you're reducing those calories makes all the difference.

A ketogenic diet can also reduce hyperglycemia in diabetes, but it is not the
wisest choice for the long term, diabetes or not. Addressing the cause of the
disease, excess unhealthy fats in the case of diabetes, is better than merely
treating the symptoms (hyperglycemia), especially if you can do both with the
same intervention ([http://www.pcrm.org/health/diabetes-
resources](http://www.pcrm.org/health/diabetes-resources)).

>Here's one of the largest studies on dietary fat, done on 50,000 women,
spanning for 8 years, showing that going low fat did absolutely nothing to
prevent heart disease:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28515068](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28515068)

Whole-food plant-based diets are the only diets shown to reverse heart disease
in a clinical setting:

Dr. Richard Fleming showing progression with low-carb diet and reversal with
WFPB
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1110832](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1110832)

Dr. Dean Ornish reversing heart disease with a WFPB diet
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9863851](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9863851)

Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn Jr reversing heart disease with a WFPB diet
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25198208](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25198208)

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17518696](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17518696)
CONCLUSIONS: Long-term consumption of a low-calorie low-protein vegan diet or
regular endurance exercise training is associated with low cardiometabolic
risk. Moreover, our data suggest that specific components of a low-calorie
low-protein vegan diet provide additional beneficial effects on blood
pressure.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7019459](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7019459)
The study suggests an adverse effect of consumption of beef on plasma lipid
and BP levels.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/)

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15172426](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15172426)
Randomized trial data suggest atherosclerosis progression and coronary heart
disease events are minimized when LDL is lowered to <70 mg/dl

Dr. Kim Williams - the President of American College of Cardiology said,
"There are two types of cardiologists: vegans and those who haven't read the
data."

[https://nutritionfacts.org/video/low-carb-diets-and-
coronary...](https://nutritionfacts.org/video/low-carb-diets-and-coronary-
blood-flow/#sources)

[https://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-not-to-die-from-
heart-d...](https://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-not-to-die-from-heart-
disease/#sources)

[https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-problem-with-the-
paleo-...](https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-problem-with-the-paleo-diet-
argument/#sources)

>I also wish people would stop posting YouTube videos btw. I don't watch
YouTube bullshit. Post links to studies that I can verify.

Wasn't linking a youtube video. He puts a video on the page to make it easy to
digest but all the sources are cited.

[https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-insulin-
resista...](https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-insulin-
resistance/#sources)

\--

You've picked the most obvious one. Heart disease and animal produce link is
well established and accepted.

Fat 100% causes diabetes. So does low-fibre or high-sugar though
([https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072693/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072693/)).
There is also a lot of extremely shady shit going on in diabetes research like
this >>

“This study was supported by grants from the American Diabetes Association,
the Minnesota Beef Council, and the Colorado and Nebraska Beef Councils”.

Cancer is established but the risk isn't that great (still causes 21% of bowel
cancers though)

------
surfmike
Related: the jetlag fast. Fasting for 12-16 hours and then eating your next
meal in the morning in your new destination is supposed to help adjust to
jetlag faster.

[https://harpers.org/blog/2012/03/the-empty-stomach-
fasting-t...](https://harpers.org/blog/2012/03/the-empty-stomach-fasting-to-
beat-jet-lag/)

------
nikkwong
Well, that's a shame. I hate eating in the morning, and love eating in the
evening. I find it surprising that earlier humans in history didn't follow
this pattern, allowing the body to adapt to digesting food later at night.

~~~
clumsysmurf
Me too; I find it easy to fast when I skip eating in the morning / afternoon —
its like my body realizes its not getting any food and turns off the hunger.

"On the time-restricted regimen, the men had lower insulin, reduced levels of
oxidative stress, less nighttime hunger and significantly lower blood
pressure."

If I eat in the morning I'm ravenous until bed time :(

~~~
blunte
Likewise, I normally don't eat until late afternoon or evening, and I'm
usually not hungry until then. But if I eat breakfast, I then want to keep
eating all day!

------
mnm1
I think they're on to something with the intermittent fasting but starting
early in the day is not a convincing argument for a night owl like me. I'd
like to see them compare the early starting six or eight hour intermittent
fasting group to a later one to see if there is a difference and include
morning larks in the first one and night owls in the second. My hypothesis is
that the groups would fare similarly but without the study we won't know.

------
wilsonnb2
I'd be curious to know why the many online advocates of intermittent fasting
(and other time restricted diets) think it's any different than the many other
fad diets that have come, gone, and come again.

Diets in general seem to bring out the obsessive optimization that many
(especially on this website) are prone too and the "one quick trick"
mentality.

I'll be surprised if there is ever any better advice than "eat food. not too
much. mostly plants".

~~~
scottLobster
Because unlike other fad diets I've actually experienced weight loss, less
hunger, better focus, more stable energy levels, lower blood pressure, better
sleep, not to mention cost savings on food, since starting a 16/8 intermittent
fast. YMMV, but for many people the benefits are quite stark and palpable
beyond possible placebo effect.

Sure it's annecdotal, but there's serious science behind some of the benefits
(see this article among other studies). To flip your question around, why are
you skeptics so certain that it's just another fad diet that will come and go?
IF can actually be a useful enforcement mechanism for the first two parts of
"eat food, not too much, mostly vegetables"

~~~
wilsonnb2
> why are you skeptics so certain that it's just another fad diet that will
> come and go?

Because, like most skeptics, we have seen this pattern before. Supposed
scientific support and loads of anecdotal evidence are common to all popular
fad diets. The scientific support of IF is also much less solid than it's
advocates would have you believe.

> IF can actually be a useful enforcement mechanism for the first two parts of
> "eat food, not too much, mostly vegetables"

I agree with this - so can basically any other fad diet. People that recognize
IF as a method of enforcing a basic CICO diet, I agree with. There are plenty
of people that, like any other fad diet, think that IF is somehow special in
ways unrelated to it's restriction of calories. _That 's_ what makes it the
same as any other fad diet to me.

> I've actually experienced weight loss, less hunger, better focus, more
> stable energy levels, lower blood pressure, better sleep

People report this from atkins, vegan, paleo, keto, juice cleanse, weight
watchers, south beach, etc. I am happy that you've found a diet that works for
you. I hope that everyone finds a healthy diet that works for them.

I just want people to realize that CICO will _always_ be the key to weight
loss regardless of how it is achieved, and "eat food. not too much. mostly
plants" will (probably) _always_ be the key to a health diet.

------
unicornporn
> “If you’re constantly eating at a time of day when you’re not getting bright
> light exposure, then the different clock systems become out of sync,”

So if you live in a part of the world when the sun sets at 2 or 3PM in the
winter, you will likely not have a very social eating life following these
recommendations.

~~~
valesco
From what I heard, people don't usually eat out in Scandinavian countries.

~~~
unicornporn
There's some truth to that I suppose. But, TBH, this comment was mind bending
to me. May I remind you that it is possible to eat with friends even though
there's no business preparing your food? :)

------
TimSchumann
I didn’t eat for 60 days. It was, without a doubt, the best decision I’ve ever
made for my physical health.

~~~
zemvpferreira
Congratulations on a great decision. I'm at the most 10 kg overweight (86 Kg/
20% body fat right now) and I regularly go a week without ingesting anything
but water and electrolytes. Shooting for 20 days of prolonged fasting in
August.

I've found it to be the easiest to stick to diet I've ever tried, and I've
done everything. If you struggle with moderation, fasting for prolonged
periods has been much more productive for me. Not only do you burn fat 3-5x
faster than any other diet, but your cravings go away incredibly quickly. I
used to compulsively eat 3 chocolate croissants a day and after a couple of
long fasts, I don't really care for them.

The emotional benefits are almost bigger. After 3 days without food my mind
stops racing and my anxiety melts away. It feels like zen no-mind, and much
stronger than I've been able to achieve by meditating.

Needless to say I'm a fan of going without food now, to the point where I hope
to do it regularly for the rest of my life (unless evidence comes out pointing
to it being bad for your health). Happy to answer any questions that pop up
about fasting.

~~~
TimSchumann
> Shooting for 20 days of prolonged fasting in August.

Awesome. You should be able to do that no problem. Just make sure you're
supplementing plenty of sodium, potassium and magnesium.

> The emotional benefits are almost bigger. After 3 days without food my mind
> stops racing and my anxiety melts away. It feels like zen no-mind, and much
> stronger than I've been able to achieve by meditating.

This was my experience as well. Somewhere between day 7 and day 10 everything
just got easier.

~~~
zemvpferreira
That's really good to hear. How was your libido through the 60 days? Mine
pretty much goes away by day 3. That's been the thing preventing me from going
longer, girlfriends don't take kindly to the lack of action between the
sheets.

On electrolytes, last time I fasted for 5 days I only drank Snake Juice (salts
dissolved in water taken through the day) and it did wonders for me. The guy
promoting it is more than a little on the wacko side, but he hit the nail on
the head with that recipe.

------
dustinmoris
I find it very surprising that the first meal should be after getting up. It
seems unlikely to me that our hunter and gatherer foragers had immediate
access to food after getting up. Also the article mentions multiple times that
food consumption during times of little or no daylight is messing with our
internal clocks, but I wonder if that is actually true, because in Winter we
only have daylight from about 8am to 4pm, often less. I eat when my body tells
me it is hungry, which literally can happen at any time of the day. Sometimes
I am physically active for most of the day (sports) and then I am normally
pretty hungry at even 9 or 10pm and I think it would be pretty unhealthy not
to listen to my own body. This article is pretty much bollocks, the only rule
for a healthy lifestyle is: Listen to your body. Don't follow any dogmatic
approach!

~~~
Rainymood
> Listen to your body. Don't follow any dogmatic approach!

When my body tells me to inject more drugs into my veins because it feels good
I should really listen to my body! Your comment is pretty much bollocks to be
honest. My example is reductio ad absurdum of course but the point still
stands. If we were to listen to our body 24/7 we'd all be mindless
instagram/facebook/dopamine zombies.

~~~
arketyp
The slogan should probably be "Learn about your body." Also, there may be some
truth to the second part which resonates with what Arnold says: "Shock your
body!"

------
Apocryphon
Does intermittent fasting make its health benefit claims based on any of this?
Because this sounds like fasting windows.

~~~
scottLobster
Depends on they length of the fast. Intermittent fasting focuses on the
benefits of not eating for extended periods, and fast lengths can vary from 12
hours to entire days. Time-restricted eating focuses on the benefits of eating
daily within a specific time window.

The "standard" 16/8 intermittent fast would get all the benefits of time
restricted eating as well.

