
I’d rather be dead than linger on in an old folks’ home - pseudolus
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-goldman-worse-than-death-20190310-story.html
======
sago
10 years ago I was diagnosed with a progressive neurological condition. I knew
that it would put me in a wheelchair, take my ability to type, strip one by
one every physical function, and eventually, but definitely not quickly, kill
me.

I knew I couldn't go through that. So I decided I would take my life at the
appropriate time. I still hold to that decision. I did the planning, I have
the means.

But something happened that I didn't expect. As I have got worse, it's never
quite felt the right time. I am much worse now than I thought I could ever
stand to be, for a long time I have been reconciled to death, but life is
still worth living enough to live.

I wonder if I will ever take that step. I absolutely reserve the right to. But
I am constantly surprised at the value of my own life, even stuck essentially
in two rooms, and requiring constant care.

The very black-and-white, all-or-nothing, I know how it's going to be 100%,
attitude in this post struck me as naive. I strongly believe that it's his
life and it should be his choice. But it did feel naive to me.

~~~
johnisgood
I have been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis 2-3 years ago. I have been
contemplating a lot about what I am going to do, and if I would be able to do
it when and if it comes to that. I do not wish to rot away on some hospital
bed waiting for my life to end. I might just end up overdosing on morphine if
it ever comes to that. Hopefully not. I try to maintain optimism, I hope that
we will be able to significantly slow down demyelination, stop it, or even
reverse it. We will see...

~~~
HQn5y8skKzuPp8D
> I hope that we will be able to significantly slow down demyelination

Recent drugs can already significantly slow down demyelinination but these
stronger drugs come with stronger side effects. And that's why I suppose you
are doing a MRI follow-up to check the activity of disease: so that doctors
know which drugs they should prescribe you.

Today immuno-neurology research is a hot field in which converge both research
for neuro-degenerative diseases and research for various forms of cancer. You
probably already know that most MS pts have an almost normal life expectancy.
I think it's quite probable that in the next decades the disease will become
stoppable for the majority of patients. (just think of tech and medicine 30
years ago...)

------
neurocline
I have personal experience with someone like this. For many years, my wife’s
mom would declaim “if I ever end up in a hospital in a coma with no hope of
recovery, just pull the plug; that’s no way to live”. We would all just nod
and move on to the next topic of conversation.

Tragically, later in her life, she had a fall and ended up in the hospital in
a coma, with the doctors saying they were not sure if she would come out of
the coma. She did, with big chunks of her memory gone, but her first lucid
communication was sheer panic at the idea someone might pull the plug. It took
a while to reassure her that no one was going to pull the plug.

That incident has stuck with me all these years. People make bold statements
about how they would behave in a crisis, and much of it is nonsense, the lack
of an ability to truly put yourself in that situation, coupled with other
factors like pride.

Likely, when the author gets to the inevitable stage in his life, he will
change his mind, and he won’t be a different person. Instead, if at this time
he retains enough cognitive ability and memory, he will say “what a fool I
was”.

~~~
_i____ii_______
Well there's also many examples of people who pulled their own plug when the
going got too laborious and they saw the writing on the wall. He could end up
being one of those people. Not everyone changes their tune regarding this
matter. Some grab a pistol; some jump out a window.

~~~
rabidrat
> No More Games. No More Bombs. No More Walking. No More Fun. No More
> Swimming. 67. That is 17 years past 50. 17 more than I needed or wanted.
> Boring. I am always bitchy. No Fun – for anybody. 67. You are getting
> Greedy. Act your old age. Relax – This won’t hurt.

------
octokatt
For folk in the US, please remember right-to-death in your end of life plans.
In other countries, look it up and figure out where your suicide switch is
installed.

I went through an awful ordeal with my mom in late stage ALS. My mom was
always adamant about being kept comfortable and taking an early exit.

But. Her sister convinced her to move to South Carolina instead of Washington
with me. This led to a nightmare of her getting eventually moved to a terrible
hospice facility, hen getting an airlift so she could be in a better hospice
in Washington.

By the time she got to Washington, we were out of time to go through the
right-to-death paperwork and self-administration. She had to go out the hard
way, which in her case was slowly shutting down over weeks, including ten days
of being unable to drink anything and slowly becoming unable to breathe. We
watched Gilmore Girls together, slowly waiting for the end, and me torn
between wanting her to be released and wanting every second with her.

I’m saying this so people understand, if you want a way out, get to a right-
to-death state. It needs to be a priority.

------
ilovecaching
I honestly can't wrap my head around nonexistence, a brief 0-100 year
existence, and then nonexistence again. I've lost days when I think about it
too much and start panicking. I want to exist dammit. I love existing. I love
my life. People act like they're going to live forever too, but really life
isn't that long, and you only live a portion of it in a young body capable of
doing all of it.

~~~
skissane
> I honestly can't wrap my head around nonexistence, a brief 0-100 year
> existence, and then nonexistence again

Death might not be non-existence. Many religions, philosophies, spiritual
teachings, say that it isn't. Of course, maybe they are all baloney–and a lot
of them have to be mostly that–but there is at least a chance there is some
truth in one or more of them.

Maybe quantum immortality is true, and all of us live forever, but it is a
lonely existence, cut off seemingly forever from family and friends. (I hope
that isn't true, it sounds rather hellish.)

Could we be living in a computer simulation? If we have no idea, shouldn't we
assign a 50% probability? But, if we are in a computer simulation, our
simulators might decide to provide an afterlife for us. And if we have no idea
whether they would or not, shouldn't we assign a 50% probability to that?
Which gives us 25% chance of a simulated afterlife – not the best odds, but
far from the worst either.

We could be physically resurrected into some paradise by various random
processes (quantum tunnelling, quantum fluctuations, thermal fluctuations).
The probability of that happening is immensely small but non-zero. No matter
how small it is, if the future is infinite, then almost surely it will happen
eventually.

Most people who think death is non-existence accept a materialist position in
the philosophy of mind, but often without giving any great thought to the
alternative positions. If idealism is true–and we have no hard evidence it
isn't–then death being the cessation of existence is far less likely. If
idealism is true, then quite possibly minds are inherently immortal, in which
case an afterlife would be metaphysically necessary.

~~~
ilovecaching
For me, a lot of that seems like wishful thinking. We didn’t exist before
birth, and we think nothing of it. More than likely, that’s where we are
headed. We just have a really hard time excepting something that is so
fundamentally against our current state of existing.

~~~
presscast
>We didn’t exist before birth

At the risk of sounding all "woo-woo", this statement bears some
qualification.

How do you define existence, here? Are you equating it with consciousness?
Surely your constituent parts (atoms, molecules, particles, etc) existed
before your consciousness, and continue to do so afterwards.

I think you'll also agree that the arrangement of matter and energy you call
"your life" is regulated by natural processes.

In principle, it's possible for the thing you call "your life" to be a brief
window within some larger process (a meta-life, if you will) of which you have
no recollection.

I don't know if I believe any of this to be true, but metaphysically speaking,
it's not at all obvious that we "didn't exist before birth".

~~~
coldtea
> _How do you define existence, here? Are you equating it with consciousness?_

Yeah, I, for one, equate it with consciousness. I could not give less fucks if
my "atoms, molecules, particles" existed before me or will exist after me.

I want the whole conscious being, able to kiss, hug, think, love, hurt, eat a
steak, and so on to extend.

> _I think you 'll also agree that the arrangement of matter and energy you
> call "your life" is regulated by natural processes. In principle, it's
> possible for the thing you call "your life" to be a brief window within some
> larger process (a meta-life, if you will) of which you have no
> recollection._

If I don't have "recollection", then I still don't care.

~~~
presscast
I think you may have completely missed the point being made.

~~~
coldtea
No, I've got the point being missed. I just don't find the distinction useful
at all.

The whole point being made was that "metaphysically speaking, it's not at all
obvious that we "didn't exist before birth".

Which I say is irrelevant, if we need to distort "exist" so much as to mean
some "larger processes" or our "atoms and molecules" existing.

Metaphysically speaking it might not be obvious, but the way the grandparent,
me, and almost everybody else uses the term existence (i.e. regarding the
conscious person, or at least their soul) it's obvious that we very much do
not exist.

------
gumby
Until five months ago my parents (in their 80s) would have decisively said the
same. They designed their house so it would be comfortable even as their range
of motion diminished (e.g. bedroom they could move into downstairs). Yet five
months ago they completely changed their minds and move to one next week.

Why?

My mum's a physician and she saw many people degenerate in their own homes,
and find themselves in trouble (fell/got stuck, had to wait for someone to
find them). For them that was disturbing, but they also saw people get quite
lonely as they and their friends could no longer make it out of the house.
Their friends are dying too. And finally they realised it just takes more and
more time to accomplish simple tasks like paying the bills. They'd rather be
living than looking after their lives.

This author is American and my parents are living in the USA as well. There's
very little support for old people in the US except for unpaid labor by
daughters or daughters in law (the number of adult sons looking after aging
parents is much lower!). In home care is expensive (1.5% of US GDP already --
I looked it up) and thinly served. When I compare that to the care my
grandparents had and my in laws (in three other countries) the US appears to
be the least supportive -- though in part this is due to people moving around
a lot.

~~~
gowld
Do you really want to drag gender wars into this? How many of those unpaid
daughters are getting their needs paid for by wage-earning spouses?

~~~
gumby
As it happens I have looked at these statistics as I am working at a startup
in the elder care space. The fact is it’s overwhelmingly the females of the
next generation who do this work, regardless of whether they have a job
outside the home, and surveys report significant _dissatisfaction_ and
resentment with that state of affairs. “I don’t see how this is dragging
gender wars in”

Increased automation will allow a significant number to “just” do the fun
parts — no bedpan or nappy changing.

------
dpau
I've now cared for two elderly relatives, both dear to me, through to their
deaths. One, in extreme pain despite copious amounts of medication, begged and
pleaded for death for a number of days before finally passing. The other,
while still lucid, expressed her desire to go quickly, that she was ready. But
she, too, went through days of agony before passing. I watched on as both
these people became nothing but their pain until they mercifully died.

There are other forms of horror I've witness family members live through, like
slowly losing your memories. Forgetting your loved ones and yourself bit by
bit.

I'm fine with withering away, even in an old folks' home. But at some point
you lose who you are. I'd rather be dead than linger in a state in which I
have no concept of who I am, or who I once was. No memory of what I find
precious, or of whom I love. The moment I'm just a scared animal in pain, with
no hope of ever being human again, please just kill me.

~~~
sosborn
> with no hope of ever being human again

I think what's difficult is the combination of hope that it will get better,
and the fear that you are ending life before it has a chance to get better.

I absolutely feel the same away about my own life as you do, but it's harder
to pull the trigger (metaphorically) when it is someone else's life, even when
it is obviously the right choice.

------
Johnny555
I remember visiting my grandmother with my new girlfriend when grandma was
bedridden and nearly blind. She wasn't always lucid, but she was this time --
we had a nice talk about things in the past, she got to meet my girlfriend
(who is now my wife), but during a lull in the conversation, she said "Johnny,
I don't know why I'm still here, I just want to leave but my body won't let
me".

That led to a long conversation of mortality with my gf and both of us
promised that we'd help each other out if we got into that state and were
ready to leave. I hope by then it's legal.

~~~
massivecali
My grandmother was fairly irate that she recovered from pneumonia and
grandfather did not. She kept asking when she was going to die and was very
straightforward about the entire ordeal. She said something along the lines of
'all my friends are dead and I've lived long enough.'

~~~
TaupeRanger
I wonder how your family took this? I had a similar experience with an elderly
person on my wife's side of the family. At that time of our lives, I couldn't
understand how someone could refuse medical treatment and seem to yearn for
death. Now that I'm a decade older, I see that her actions were not without
reasonable cause...one might even say they were courageous and bold. She was
simply done. She'd lost a child earlier in her life. She loved her family but
everyone was well off and content. She didn't like doctors and hospitals. She
was in near constant pain from arthritis. And she was just...done.

~~~
massivecali
It was a mixed bag as far as reactions. Some family is religious, some
incapable of expressing emotion, some work in healthcare and have seen death
enough to accept it. Living in pain with no personal hope is a big gap. Having
others force their idea on you about what you should accept as 'things to live
for' seems more depressing than anything to me. It's always harder on the
living because we are selfish in wanting a person to stick around who does not
want to.

------
waivek
As an Indian, I will never ever be able to wrap my head around the concept of
an old-age home that seems normal in western societies.

Whenever I find myself feeling a bit envious about the obvious advantages that
are there in western countries, the reminder of the existence of this
absurdity immediately removes all feelings of jealousy.

~~~
collyw
What's the alternative in India?

~~~
waivek
If you're not living in absolute poverty, it's completely possible to take
care of your parents as they grow old. My father took care of my grandfather
until his last day and they lived under the same roof albeit on different
floors.

No matter how my life turns out, I will still do the same for my parents as
they have done for theirs.

For large swathes of the population, putting your parents in and old-age home
is seen as a complete and utter betrayal for the sacrifices they made for you.

~~~
isostatic
You have x hours to spend. You can either spend them with yout children or
spend them with dementia laden old parents who don’t know who you are

What’s better for you? For your children? For your parents?

A granny flat may be acceptable, but having the in-laws under your roof? It
was awful when I was a kid, and we had mother-in-law round for a week or so
after she came out of hospital for a knee replacement. We all found it
intolerable.

I don’t want to be a burden on my kids, and my parents dont want to be a
burden on me.

Unlike in India though, I wouldn’t sue them.

[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-
india-47154287](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-47154287)

~~~
waivek
I think the key difference is that the visit from your mother-in-law was a
novel or unique experience which you might not have the emotional tools to
handle. It isn't exactly fair to compare that inexperience with what is a way
of life in India.

The visit may have been uncomfortable for you because of the absence of
societal and cultural rules to help streamline these situations.

------
neverartful
I too would rather be dead than rotting away in an old folks home. At least
that's how I think about it now.

My comment will probably get down-voted for this next part, but it's not meant
to be mean-spirited, self-righteous, condescending, or anything like that.
Just one person's point of view.

Despite my preference, my hope is that I would surrender to and accept God's
will. The Lord's Prayer says "thy will be done" and not "my will be done".
Jesus did not press the easy button.

~~~
ZeroFries
I agree. It sounds esoteric, but if there's any purpose to existence, then
there's purpose to the suffering one might go through near the end of life.
There's almost certainly a reason nearly all religions consider suicide a
grave sin, and I don't think worldly reasons (like the welfare of society) are
solely the cause.

------
praptak
I just want euthanasia as an option, if the future me wants it. I definitely
wouldn't want to put this kind of binding decision over future me (regardless
of whether "future me" is actually me).

~~~
iamdave
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_a_Life_(Star_Trek:_The_Ne...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_a_Life_\(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation\))

Star Trek: The Next Generation has an absolutely _brilliant_ episode on this
topic that touches on a lot of the things brought up in the article, as well
as a concern you've brought up here in your comment:

 _I definitely wouldn 't want to put this kind of binding decision over future
me_

A character facing this very conceit admitted that in the past, he was-like
many others of his species-in favor of a policy whereby at 60 years old their
kind would sacrifice themselves in an honorary fashion so as not to impede the
progress of their descendants.

 _Fifteen to twenty centuries ago, we had no Resolution. We had no such
concern for our elders. As people aged, they... their health failed. They
became invalids. And those whose families could no longer care for them were
put away, into... deathwatch facilities, where they waited in loneliness for
the end to come, sometimes... for years. They had meant something; and they
were forced to live beyond that, into a time of meaning nothing. Of knowing
that they could now only be the beneficiaries of younger people 's patience.
We are no longer that cruel_[1]

But the character later has a change of heart over the policy he was
invariably complicit in supporting, while IMDB doesn't have the quote,
paraphrasing it poorly-he opined about how his present and potentially future
self may rebuke his past self for such a policy--a question of hindsight.

Great episode, I encourage one who's interested in the discussion created by
this article to read it. It's one of my personal favorite TNG episodes, as it
creates an interesting confluence of emotional narrative and philosophical
narrative that comes to a narrative conclusion, but leaves the philosophical
question open in ways most episodes of the same 'template' don't.

[1][https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708724/quotes/qt1125551](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708724/quotes/qt1125551)

~~~
isostatic
Wasn’t that about perfectly healthy people being forced to die against their
will?

Ethics at least covered the idea that Worf (paralysed) contemplating suicide.

~~~
iamdave
_Wasn’t that about perfectly healthy people being forced to die against their
will?_

The specific episode I referenced it wasn't so much about perfectly healthy
people being _forced_ to die against their will, since the character in
question intimated quite heavily that their species had made a conscious
decision that this is how their elderly would "pass on".

He repeatedly made it appear as if their species treated it as an honorable
affair, and that it was a celebration.

Further in the episode, his daughter comes onboard the Enterprise and
expresses that she does still love her father but is ashamed of him for
defying a long standing tradition. So I'm not sure if it's a matter of anyone
being "forced" in this case to die before they may emotionally be ready to.

The episode kind of plays on this through the meta-narrative/"B Plot" of the
character (Timicin is his name, by the way) working to revive a dying star and
save his species, after the entire episode and all of the build up, his
experiment ultimately fails, dooming the star to die anyway, his planet doomed
to the same fate.

The episode routinely ruminates on the concept of death as a choice, only once
do we see an instance of what could be called 'force' when Timicin's
government demands he comes back and undergo the ritual suicide, but even they
finally relent to his wishes and tell him that if he wishes to stay with the
Enterprise and continue living, he may-they wont pursue him further, but he
will effectively be disregarded by his society and his scientific achievements
effectively destroyed.

The takeaway, I believe it was Picard who noted that sometimes death must come
in whatever manifestation it comes, even if we feel it's something that can be
stalled by wit, intuition or will-this happens during the scene we see the
experiment fail and the cast comes to the realization that there may be
nothing that can be done with current technology to save the local solar
system.

Timicin ultimately makes peace with it, as does Counselor Troi's mother (who
fell in love and didn't want to see him throw his life away), and realizes he
can still die in peace and allow his contributions to flourish with younger
generations of scientists who might be able to learn from his research and
keep their local star from dying out for good.

------
baking
Can anyone explain what it means to "thrive in hospice"? My impression is that
the plan is 1) to discontinue "heroic measures" and 2) dope you up with
opioids "to make you comfortable" so much so that your body shuts down. I'm
fine with the first, but I don't see how that qualifies as thriving. I'd like
to hear if anyone's experiences are different.

~~~
ddingus
I have two experiences to share:

Mother in law had heart attack, ended up with low function. She had 10 good
years, then the "evil zapper" as she called it, would trigger regularly. She
hated it and directed that it be turned off.

Two blissful weeks followed. Just knowing it was not going to happen again
perked her right up. The last night, she got up late and I made her a great
sandwich. She knew this was it. Went to sleep, and was lucid only one more
time.

She said thank you.

The other was my Father in law. He was very old, fell and broke his arm. His
body just could not cope. He ended up in hospice care, both of these at home,
BTW. Neither wanted to be in some hospital room.

He went through a very painful week of shutdown, but was mostly lucid. This
was terrible.

Medical cannibis was available in my state, and he requested a "stiff dose"
because the opiates made him a mess. Experiencing some cannibis was on his
bucket list and smoking it was out of the question.

I looked up how to make a very potent drink, did it and we gave him a shot
glass full of it.

Frankly, the next 10 or so hours were amazing. He got up, out of bed (not
supposed to be possible at this point), came out to see everyone, yell at the
idiots on TV, and tell us all stuff he wanted to tell, along with old songs
and jokes he wanted people, his grand kids to remember.

We all asked (What the hell?), and he said I am stoned enough to forget I am
dying. No more of that talk, gimme a beer. (We did) He was Irish, and to him
this kind of thing was "going out right and proper"

He passed a day or two later. After that fun night, he went to sleep, restful,
seemingly way more comfortable. Was not lucid again.

We did not have to use much of the death drug kit they sent us home with.

I have only done home hospice. I think it has beauty and pain. I think it is a
just and solid choice for one to make when they have family they trust
completely.

Both thrived. Was brief. No way would it have been the same in a sterile
boring, unfamiliar room.

Both contained meaningful end of life experiences. Both appear to have a
worthy end. Worthy in that is was their terms more.

That is all. Hope this helps.

For what it is worth, I was moved. I will definitely go that way should my end
be known and it being possible.

------
bellerose
I have the view that all persons with psychological illnesses should have the
right to receive euthanasia and only if they desire with medical professionals
examining them if coercion exists or not. Society is currently selfish,
arrogant and ignorant when it comes to authority over people who desire death.
I know one person who is being discriminated based on her painful illness and
while knowing a person who received euthanasia who suffered less pain in his
life than the other person. The first person being diagnosed with gender
dysphoria and the second person with cancer. The events lived in life can be
more important than the illness when it comes to how pain is felt & dealt
with.

------
emilfihlman
I will never want to die and I will never allow anyone to kill me, stop any
potential life support or anything of that sort.

I'd rather be alive than decomposing.

------
mattsmith321
Lots of good conversation on this challenging topic. I would like to throw out
a nugget of information for anyone finding themselves having to go down this
path: There are many different levels of care when it comes to 'old folks
homes'.

We had to go down this path last year with my mom to get her out of living
alone in a house. I thought the options were to move in with one of us or put
her in an old folks home. Turns out there are many different levels and
options: Independent Living, Assisted Living, Memory Care, Skilled Nursing,
Private Duty Nursing, Hospice, Continuing Care Retirement Communities, etc.

We found an independent living situation that gives my mom the independence
she needs but also the social, dining, and transportation needs that enable
her to live a good life without us having to worry about her safety and well-
being. Of course, she does like to say with a wink that we put her in an old
folks home but she enjoys it.

------
chx
For some time now it has been on my mind how the... how to best express this?
the default stance is that everyone wants to live as long as modern medicine
can stretch their lives. Very reluctantly, a few places relatively recently
began to allow people with debilitating conditions to end their lives at their
will. As far as I am concerned, I already only live because I feel a duty to
the small school(-ish) I started and finance. It was always meant to be a
relatively short lived affair. When your bucket list is empty, you are alone
in this world, when you don't have anything to look forward why go on? I have
known for years now that I don't particularly want to survive my 50th birthday
(some six years from now) and there's no dignified way to just end it.

~~~
robocat
Why 50?

Make it 65, and then find something to look forward to in 20 year's time. Even
if it is just GTA XXI

~~~
chx
Because if my luck persists my mortgage gets paid down by then.

------
Invictus0
If anything can be learned from the article and the commenters, it is that it
is very difficult to know your own, true stance on this matter until you're in
the position where you need to make a decision. It is easy to say that we
would choose to end our lives than live with a crippling disease, but we
forget about the omnipresent hope that is within us all, the same hope that
got our ancestors through disasters, war, and unimaginable suffering.
Unfortunately, in most cases, a person is not able to make the decision until
they are already suffering.

I don't know where I stand on this issue, truthfully. I feel that people
should have the right to choose, but it seems like most people really struggle
to predict what they will want when push comes to shove.

------
mlok
Jacqueline Jencquel is a French woman who has decided she would die in January
2020 : [https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/paw59z/meet-the-woman-
who...](https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/paw59z/meet-the-woman-whos-picked-
her-own-death-date)

------
kzrdude
As discussed with my father today, a good care home for elderly should be a
social club rather than a health care institution foremost. Let us all go out
in good company with high spirits, and maybe some coffee and spirits to go
with it.

------
neonate
[https://outline.com/jcfEVE](https://outline.com/jcfEVE)

------
AnonymousRider
Make the most of the time you are given for there are no take-backs or do-
overs in suicide.

------
madengr
Another reason against gun control. If you need to end it, a gun is a quick
way.

~~~
defterGoose
So is Heroin. Hmmmmmmm.

------
HNLurker2
Relevant slate star codex: [https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-
slow-decay...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay/)

How a doctor trully dies.

------
LifeLiverTransp
I never planed to be thirty - so there is that.

------
duncancarroll
This is a very unpopular idea, but I'll say it anyway because it's relevant:
With a modest amount of meditation practice you can cause your awareness to
exit your body. I say this from personal experience but it's also in the yoga
texts. Typically you come back, but if not, it's called yogic suicide. That's
why a lot of monks are burned "alive" in a meditative posture--they're not
actually in there being roasted, they hit the eject button.

It's a much nicer way to go out than many alternatives, and once it becomes
more common knowledge I'm sure we'll see much more of it.

Sadly even the idea tends to make people angry, esp. if they have invested in
a worldview where the brain is the sole originator of consciousness, death is
the end, etc, even though all they have to do is try it for themselves, though
for some reason most don't. Just don't tell me it's a hallucination until
you've done it successfully yourself. I'll say I was certainly surprised. It
is like sticking your finger into an electrical socket and then being shot out
of a cannon out the top of your head into another world.

If you're interested look it up, it's not nearly as hard to do as people make
it out to be, though I still can't do it exactly on command, I am getting
better at it with practice. I don't claim to know everything about it, but the
world you enter has some strange properties and its not as simple as just
waltzing around as a disembodied spirit with x-ray vision or something.
There's some overlap of the objective world and this other world which is not
as rigidly objective as this one. Future researchers will figure it out I'm
sure. It's a fascinating frontier of human knowledge, and I will say as far as
hacks go, hacking your consciousness is a pretty good one.

<Holds up flame shield>

~~~
bellerose
> Just don't tell me it's a hallucination until you've done it successfully
> yourself.

I cannot resist, I've done meditation with never performing the out of body
experience and I've read about it in great detail. I would still think the
possibility of it all being a hallucination and even if performed with
thinking it was definitely real. Hallucinations can be so real that they're
impossible to disprove. Consciousness might not even be real in the sense that
most people think about it as because reality tends to be deterministic with
the impossibility to prove otherwise.

~~~
duncancarroll
That's partly why I suggested people try it for themselves, because while I
agree my personal subjective experience doesn't qualify as evidence one way or
another for it being real / not real, it's much harder to dismiss once you've
had it happen.

FWIW, this wasn't actually my goal when I started meditating, it just happened
after some months of regular meditation, and I had to piece together what it
was from limited information. As you can see from the number of downvotes,
there's still a strong prejudice against even the suggestion that these are
valid experiences with potential utility. So it goes!

~~~
bellerose
I don't doubt your experience or even the countless others who have had it
happen and shared online. I just find it possible to be a trigger-able
hallucination. Similar to what is possible with drugs. It's impossible to ever
know if an out of body experience is real or a hallucination. I do find it
interesting though. I think meditation is a healthy process to keep in one's
arsenal of activities.

~~~
duncancarroll
I appreciate your open-mindedness. The only point I would make in reply is
that is is possible to know if it's real or a hallucination, it just hasn't
been thoroughly tested. It is possible to design an experiment to test the
extent to which our normal world and this seemingly other space might
intersect.

It would also be possible, though ethically controversial, to test whether or
not a person in an OBE state could reliably alternate between being pronounced
dead, and then resuscitated. It would be a substantial finding to learn that
someone could will themselves to both "die" and also to be revived.

What is certain is that as meditation becomes more popular these experiences
will become more common and no longer ridiculed. We will then learn more by
virtue of level-headed people sharing information about them. Who knows what
we'll find?

