

SIRC Guide to Flirting: what social science tells you about flirting  - cynthiaherald
http://www.sirc.org/publik/flirt.pdf
Really informative and interesting 26 page PDF.
======
danso
This all may be eye-rolling advice but some of it is still worth jogging the
subconscious about:

> _When asked about flirting, most people – particularly men – focus on the
> verbal element: the ‘chatting-up’, the problems of knowing what to say,
> finding the right words, etc. In fact, the non- verbal element – body-
> language, tone of voice, etc. – is much more important, particularly in the
> initial stages of a flirtation. When you first meet new people, their
> initial impression of you will be based 55% on your appearance and body-
> language, 38% on your style of speaking and only 7% on what you actually
> say._

I can't be the only hacker in here who has wondered why a slickly produced
shallow essay got more interest than the substantive essay printed on a static
HTMl file set to 12 pt. Times New Roman/100% width. How Apple managed to
succeed despite the respect of many an intelligent hardware enthusiast is a
classic example.

This is partially related to attractiveness, yes, but all things being even,
the presentation that is more thoughtfully welcome, accommodating, and
empathetic...regardless of content...will have a surprisingly higher reach
than we might expect

~~~
wallflower
> their initial impression of you will be based 55% on your appearance and
> body-language

My female friends tell me that if a guy comes up to talk to them - your body
language gives away that you're interested whether you know it or not. You
don't have to _say_ it. In fact, it can be awkward if you do say it right away
without justifying it (e.g. 'you are hot' v. 'i like your aloofness').

Even the nerdiest person has thousands of years of built-in intuition that
trumps all conscious analysis.

The hardest step, for me, is just putting yourself out there.

~~~
sirmarksalot
The problem is that "putting yourself out there" goes against your intuition,
and by priming your mind this way, you also turn off the useful parts of your
intuition.

If you try to start a conversation in fight-or-flight mode, your body language
will betray you, and it will either end quickly or carry on awkwardly.

~~~
pm90
That is why the number one lesson in being good with women is being
comfortable in their presence. I don't really think that by "putting yourself
out there" you are "priming your mind " to "turn off the useful parts of your
intuition". Its just an irrational fear that you try to get rid of

------
seats
"When you first approach an attractive stranger, having established at least
an indication of mutual interest through eye contact, try to make eye contact
again at about 4ft away, before moving any closer. At 4 ft (about two small
steps away), you are on the borderline between what are known as the ‘social
zone’ (4 to 12 ft) and the ‘personal zone’ (18in to 4ft).

If you receive a positive response at 4ft, move in to ‘arm’s length’ (about
2ft 6in)."

Reminds me of the "How To" Goofy cartoons ->
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxeL9bdSu-A&t=102](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxeL9bdSu-A&t=102)

~~~
toddmorey
That's genius. It's such a better read when you add the tone and gusto of that
narrator.

------
cdcarter
> _The most striking exception to this rule is horseracing, where all the
> ‘action’ takes place in just a few minutes, the half-hour interval between
> races is dedicated to sociability, and friendly interaction between
> strangers is actively encouraged by racecourse etiquette. In fact, our own
> recent research on the behaviour of racegoers indicates that the ‘social
> micro-climate’ of the racecourse makes it one of the best flirting
> environments in Britain._

This is one of the most impressive conclusions the text comes to, because
though the social climate absolutely leads itself to be a great place to
flirt, I can only imagine the kind of people who would hit on me at the
racetrack (or someones reaction when I tell them where I met my love).

------
ajays
I just read a couple of pages, and this is a great read.

"If you are mainly looking for flirting opportunities, . . . . seek out clubs
full of happy, sociable under-achievers."

It's pure comedy gold, Jerry!

Having said that: I hate to stereotype, but I find us geeks (men) to be pretty
bad at flirting. I don't know if a 26-page tome will solve that problem or
not....

~~~
mhd
Basic social science articles always read like they're written by Captain
Obvious.

 _"1. Do initiate flirtation with people of roughly the same level of
attractiveness as yourself.

2\. Don’t flirt with people who are unlikely to return your interest."_

But on the other hand, there's really no easy way out (writing about it, I
mean). I've yet to find a more "practical" approach that doesn't read like
either semi-useless and somewhat obvious statistics ("try to position yourself
between 3 and 4 feet away from your flirting partner"), or just oozes sleaze
("pickup artists", ESR etc.). Getting technical about human beings and our
social interaction works quite well in a clinical, observing manner, but once
it's meant as actual practical advise, it's very easy to cross boundaries.

~~~
orangecat
_or just oozes sleaze ("pickup artists", ESR etc.)_

They may be sleazy, but they're basically right.

~~~
mhd
Even if their statistical shenanigans would be scientifically "accurate"
(which I still doubt), by no means would I, morally and ethically, consider
them "right".

I'm the stereotypical reclusive, clinically shy geek, but I've gotten past
puberty, and stopped considering penetration to be the "end game". Note that
those douchebags seem to be exclusively care about that, there's no
"relationship artist" trade that I'm aware of.

~~~
barrkel
Believe it or not, sometimes women _are_ looking for "penetration" as the "end
game". Not every encounter is expected to end in a life-long marriage.

~~~
mhd
I think "sometimes" is the key word here. I like cookies but eating them all
the time might be a bit unhealthy. And preaching the "all cookie lifestyle"
would seem a bit odd. From what I've seen of the "pickup scene", that seems to
be the rule. I like the PDF here. It's a nice, social science view of
flirting, and although it's always odd to view interaction in a statistical
way, it's not written as how to best exploit and game things ("flirting" vs.
"pickup"). I think this style is way better than your usual "how to get any
girl in bed" type of book (or your average Cosmo type of article for the
distaff side).

~~~
starship
I just don't think this is true. I think the majority of people that end up
looking into the pickup stuff are normal guys, who are bad at talking to
girls, and who want a relationship. Most people don't want to spend the time
and money necessary to have some kind of clubbing 3-nights a week lifestyle.

The reason those books recommend going out multiple times a week, isn't to
have that lifestyle per say, it's because that's the only way to accumulate
enough hours at practicing these social interactions to internalize it. Once
most people reach that point, they stop going to clubs and spending all that
money. Then they use the skills they learned through trial-and-error on
strangers to date people in their social circles.

~~~
mhd
I'm not condemning the readers. But are we really assuming a dichotomy between
"Forever Alone" and following in the foot steps of "pickup artists"?
Especially in a thread where the original article shows that you can convey
the essential information without machismo self-help lingo?

If it's from sleazoid to sleazoid, okay, let them simmer in their own
subcultural juices. But as you say, a part of the reader demographics is
oriented towards the socially insecure, and there this approach can be
damaging (and seems inherently exploitative to me). There _are_ other books
about this, from targetign the shyness angle to basic social interaction
("shmoozing") to flirting – or to bedroom performance, if you're concerned
about that. You don't really have to reach for the "seduction community"
shenanigans.

Apart from the moral/ethical angle, there's also little actual value in that
part of the bookshelf, from what I have seen. It's bad self-help, coupled with
_huge_ amounts of self-promotion (to establish the required credibility of the
author). I'm not saying that it doesn't _work_ , mind you. Not necessarily
because of the clever tricks and lingo, but because of the basic confidence
boost. "You can do it!" is probably all a lot of people need. Just like lots
of diets or GTD type of books work just by the customer deciding to watch what
he's eating or trying to organize his life.

Still don't think you should hand your money to that sector of virtual wing
men… Maybe all joking aside, we _would_ benefit from a "advanced social
skills" Hacker News (There's probably a subreddit for it already).

~~~
starship
I agree, that is a false dichotomy. Here's an alternative: read a lot of
things, including one or two books by the "pickup" people. Glean from their
stuff some things that are useful, and toss out the rest. If you're so averse
to paying $10 for a paperback copy of The Game (which as a first-person
account is also a story with some pretty high entertainment value btw), then
borrow it from a library.

No one is advocating buying into their whole philosophy. But as I said in a
parallel thread to this one, unfortunately those guys have developed the most
accurate and detailed model for modern day social interactions that I've seen.
After I knew what to look for in terms of body language, group dynamics, etc.
the difference was night and day.

------
minopret
The PDF's metadata and the Internet Archive Wayback Machine say that this item
(available via <http://www.sirc.org/publik/flirt.html>) originated thirteen
years ago. Surely we readers of Hacker News don't fit the "awkward geek"
stereotype that well?!

There is a newer "advanced" guide:
<http://www.sirc.org/publik/advanced_flirting.shtml>

~~~
ac
> There is a newer "advanced" guide:
> <http://www.sirc.org/publik/advanced_flirting.shtml>

Note that the "advanced" guide almost doesn't have any of the HOWTO advice
from the OP link, however I've read and would recommend to read both: the
"advanced" guide helps put things in perspective.

Also, I think the following quote from the "advanced" version is brilliant:

The human species is addicted to rule-making. Every human activity, without
exception, including natural biological functions such as eating and sex, is
hedged about with complex sets of rules and regulations, dictating where,
when, with whom and what manner the activity may be performed. Animals just do
these things; humans make an almighty song and dance about it: this is known
as 'culture' or 'civilization'.

------
lnanek2
I had a young business co-founder who was into this stuff. Turned out to be a
disaster. A top company was interested in incubating us, but didn't read a
link she sent them soon enough, so she killed it and forced them to ask for it
again. Another person wanted to connect us with some interested investors, and
she agreed to meet, then canceled, then re-offered, etc.. It was just constant
promise-withdraw routines and other flirting stuff to make her seem busy and
valuable and desirable and someone to chase, but everyone else, myself
included, were just old and tired and just wanted to get down to business and
it was a major turn off.

------
rcthompson
Well, at least this brings me from "I don't understand anything about
flirting" to "Here's a list of everything I don't understand about flirting."

~~~
noamsml
All learning is by immersion. The best way to start learning flirting is to
observe couples on dates, and note their body language. You don't need to be
close enough to hear their voices, since body language will be your important
leader. If you can hear them speak, even better. You can also make it into a
social outing by bringing along a friend and making running commentary on the
date (this will help you exchange notes and speed the learning process, and it
will also make learning fun and thus increase retention). Note that these
things (esp #2) are both fairly socially unacceptable, so be aware of that and
try to be somewhat discreet.

Once you do that, go out and use the body language you've learned to indicate
flirting and assess other's reactions. Test, adjust, repeat. The hardest part
is that you'll need to find a group of people whose opinion you don't care
about until you're vaguely OK at it. I suggest parties, not bars or clubs,
because they are the most conducive to the wide range of flirting you'll tend
to want to master.

------
dylanhassinger
This topic is hard to compute. Why can't there just be an open source standard

~~~
eevilspock
see @ajays comment above

------
throwaway1979
Disclaimer: I have great respect for women. If you are a woman, please don't
take offense from this post. Because none is intended. As your archetypical
computer nerd, I had a very hard time dating. These are things that helped me.
I want to share this info with other guys like me. Sort of like ... I wish I
knew this when I was young.

\----

I had a very hard time with the ladies. Somethings that helped:

\- Move to a place with a better male-female ratio.

\- Move to a place where you seem like a good catch.

\- Seek out women in different professions than tech (I am convinced there are
too few geek girls to go around. I never realized how bad the odds were.)

That's it. Seriously. For me, it was about location-location-location. I
firmly believe there are certain cities full of women who just tease - they
string you along as friends but no more. If you have had no dating success in
1-2 years, you might be in a dating dead-zone.

Some things that helped (but I sucked at doing these):

\- Gym

\- Good clothes (not by my definition but by a young woman's definition -
these did not match at all. We're talking bright colors, shopping at Express
... this nearly brought a tear to my eye.)

\- Good haircut (again, I thought I looked like an idiot ... the ladies really
like it. Spiky hair=catnip?)

\- Read "The Game" - it is not about pick ups. It is about confidence.
Frankly, I think the same ideas described in this book for picking up women
are used by so-called hustlers and suits in making business deals.

Heh ... maybe I should do a more detailed post on this one day. I clearly
spent way too much thinking about this subject when I was single :p

Some important things:

a) DO NOT GET DEPRESSED! There are lots of losers out there. Getting with a
loser is easy. One reason you are single is you want something better.

b) DON'T LOSE YOUR IDENTITY!! A lot of women described me as geeky when I was
young. So what? I do what I love. That said, I'm okay compromising on clothes.
However, when I dated women who wanted to change me completely, it was me who
broke it off. That said, I do try to reduce my overall level of geekiness in
front of strangers. Don't overwhelm them ;-)

c) DON'T GET DEPRESSED! When you are young, single and geeky, it might seems
like the one thing you need to make life work is a mate. That's not true.
Trust me. There are benefits to being single - like time to play video games,
board games, travel on your own, hack around, read books, attend tech events,
whatever you want. Never lose respect for yourself!

Best of luck to all my single, geeky HNers. I hope some of this will help.

------
saintdev
WhyaretherenospacesinChrome'sbuilt-inPDFviewer?

tl;dr; Chrome's built-in PDF viewer has trouble with this file.

~~~
elemeno
No problems for me on 19.0.1084.56 on OS X

~~~
saintdev
Hmm, maybe it's something to do with the font rendering. It's fine on my
desktop, but not my laptop.

~~~
navytank
I've run into this multiple times on Ubuntu---have you installed the
"msttcorefonts" package?

------
1gor
Ah, SIRC is great.

Their British Pub culture guide (<http://www.sirc.org/publik/ptpintro.html>)
is the best and I think the only available research on the subject. It really
helped me when I moved to the UK...

~~~
JonnieCache
That pub guide is good. It should be noted that all the stuff about every pub
legally having to close at eleven doesn't apply any more. The "last orders"
ritual still exists, but it will occur at a later closing time.

------
plf
On Chrome/Fedora that PDF has no spaces between letters at all.

------
planetguy
Hacker News: where we discuss advanced programming and elementary social
skills.

I wonder if there's somewhere out there where it's the reverse.

~~~
olliesaunders
Isn’t the main reason we are bad at these things because we don’t really care
for them. I’m not suggesting we are asexual but that we don’t hold flirting
etc. in very high regard.

~~~
danneu
I doubt it. I think it's safe to say that most people pine for social skills
if they perceive they lack them. Perhaps controversial, but I'd wager that
most of the time resentment towards a social concept like flirting is really
just a consequence of defeatism.

------
cynthiaherald
Its rather mroe introductory but it's still an interesting and informative
read. Defintiely something to print out and read when bored or give to a
younger brother or any young person entering high school or college. Wish I
had this when I was beggining my college days.

~~~
stfu
Have to admit that some of the "results" are quite entertaining e.g. _the
‘social micro-climate’ of the racecourse makes it one of the best flirting
environments in Britain._

