
Loomio – Crowdfunding a better way to make decisions together - loomio
http://loomio.org/crowd
======
User8712
Crowdfunding web applications? Is this becoming a new thing?

Send us 100k, and we'll finish our beta application, and give you rewards,
like your name in the code, or for $500, you can have a coffee with us on
video chat. Or for $25,000, fly yourself here, and we'll give you a tour of
the city and cook you dinner. Does this not sound crazy to anyone else?

If they raise an extra $150k, they'll develop extras, such as _a plug-in
architecture to enable an ecosystem of open-source plug-ins for different
discussion and decision-making protocols that will scale to much larger
groups_. I don't know what the hell that even means, but isn't it a little
irresponsible to even consider such features when you haven't made an official
release, and proven the concept has any long term traction?

If you can't tell, this entire thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. After 18
months of beta they're unable to launch, or make enough sales to organizations
to fund their development, so they're asking the crowd for a 100k donation? I
don't believe their software is as life changing as the video makes it out to
be, and I don't think they have a viable business. I expect them to burn
through the money, launch, and fade away.

~~~
loomio
Hi, thanks for your comments. We launched a functional and useful alpha in
early 2012, followed by a public beta in 2013, which was open to everyone to
use. 15,000 people have already signed up and people are using the software
right now all over the world. You're welcome to use the Loomio protoype right
now, either the hosted version in the cloud, or install your own instance.

Set up a Loomio prototype group here:
[https://www.loomio.org/group_requests/new](https://www.loomio.org/group_requests/new)
or grab the code from
[http://github.com/loomio/loomio](http://github.com/loomio/loomio)

So if we're talking about the beta prototype, characterising us as "unable to
launch" isn't fair. What the crowdfunding campaign is for is building Loomio
1.0, a redesign and expansion of the core idea we've validated.

The stretch goals would allow us to unlock matching funding from the New
Zealand government, including taking on some big technical challenges. You are
right that these are not yet well-defined, since we're still a ways off from
starting to work on them. But there are serious challenges around scaling up
meaningful online discussion and decision-making to large groups that I don't
believe anyone has really solved yet. We want to take them on.

We've hung in there for 2 years already, and put together an amazing team. The
incredible support of over 1000 people is now going to allow us to release
Loomio 1.0 later this year. We're not going anywhere!!

So sorry it leaves a bad taste. If there's anything else you'd like to know
that might help you understand it better, please let us know! We're a
genuinely earnest and well-meaning group trying to build something we think
can help people.

~~~
User8712
Why would you say unable to launch isn't a fair assessment? If you had a
functional and useful alpha over 2 years ago, and 1.0 isn't released, I'd say
that's spot on. You're going to be in for nearly 3 years, $100k from the
crowd, and an unknown amount from your supporters and team before officially
launching. 15,000 users on free software is a small number. I'd be worrying
the small number isn't because the big launch has happened, but because the
concept doesn't have enough appeal. I've launched a few different projects in
the past that hit 15,000 users in a week, and the majority of those died
within months or a year.

Nonetheless, congratulations on raising $100k from 1,000 users. That shows
some dedication from the community, so you must be doing something right.
Hopefully I'm wrong on my forecast, and good luck on the project.

------
llamataboot
So excited to see Loomio on the frontpage of Hacker News! I've long dreamed of
an effective web app for consensus decision making processes (and even thought
about building one) but as a user of Loomio for over a year I can say they've
done almost everything right -- even down to having some serious design chops.
I'm so excited to see where they will be able to take this with the money
they've raised (hit your goal today! woot!) and look forward to introducing
more activist organizations, especially those with people in many geographical
locations, to Loomio. Great job to all the devs and designers and alpha and
beta testers!

For those of you who don't know, consensus decision making is not just a
willy-nilly free for all. Over the years it has been refined by groups, it has
developed strong points of process that help ensure it actually is a decision
making process, not just a discussion that goes in circles or goes nowhere.
(including the infamous hand signals that many saw during Occupy). If you are
interested in consensus decision making, I highly recommend checking out this
classic book.

[http://consensus.net/pdf/consensus.pdf](http://consensus.net/pdf/consensus.pdf)

While I don't think formal consensus decision making is the best tool for non-
hierarchical decision making i all circumstances, I do think it is quite
powerful /when used correctly/. Historically this has required strong
facilitation skills and other roles (timekeeper, temperature checker, etc) --
all of which play their part in keeping the process working as designed.

Loomio has created a platform for decentralized non-hierarchical decision
making that bakes in some crucial features /to accomplish formal consensus
decision making/. All the activists I know that have tried it have been
impressed by the dev team's responsiveness and dogfooding (Loomio uses
Loomio), and have found the features enable formal consensus decision making
in a way that a discussion board or voting polls or similar tools that aren't
quite designed for consensus just don't.

~~~
grimtrigger
What have you been using Loomio for? I still can't say I really get it.

~~~
llamataboot
For doing formal-ish consensus decisionmaking with groups that are
geographically dispersed and can't do in-person consensus-based meetings.

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xerophtye
I really like the platform. It enables people to conduct the decision making
in a way that is followed in formal committees, and even the UN. People
present options, everyone talks about them, then when it seems that the group
is converging towards a solution, you present a proposal. And then everyone
votes on it (and not just a yes or no!). So it's pretty cool.

I just have one concern, does only the leader present proposals? or can
everyone do it? To me, letting only the leader (OP) do that makes sense.
otherwise wouldn't everyone be just doing that instead of posting suggestions?

~~~
robguthrie
Thanks! Yes anyone can start a discussion and a proposal, but we haven't
experienced people just starting proposals without engaging in other ways.
People start proposals but if you don't want to participate, you can just let
them die. The big idea here is to build shared understanding through
discussion before a proposal is suggested, that way the group has a solid
foundation on which to create a decision.

~~~
xerophtye
I understand the intended usage but I am just a little surprised that people
actually follow that. Either way, good work! I am loving it!

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MakeUsersWant
My pet peeve is projects that don't describe what they do. Thought process
while reading:

> Loomio is a user-friendly tool for collaborative decision-making:

Piqued my interest.

> not majority-rules polling, but actually coming up with solutions that work
> for everyone.

Skeptical because it promises to get rid of office politics. I want to know
specifics how and why it works. Cold, hard, game-theory and/or economics.
Maybe there is something useful behind that marketing-speak.

> We’re a small team in New Zealand, and we’ve built a prototype that people
> are already doing great things with.

Total non-sequitur. I don't care who you are. Convince me why the product
works before I invest more effort.

> Now we’re crowdfunding so we can build the real thing: a new tool for truly
> inclusive decision-making.​

Ah, it doesn't work yet.

> Youtube video

Sorry, I'm not going to spend an hour of my time when you've already proved
yourself a bad steward of the last five minutes.

Contrast this to xerophtye's comment: short, punchy explanation how Loomio
works.

~~~
robguthrie
Thanks for the feedback. We'll try to fix those points.

Checkout the explore page for a few examples of groups using the tool:

[https://www.loomio.org/explore](https://www.loomio.org/explore)

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Widdershin
I know some of the people involved in this project, and I've recently started
trying to contribute. It's really cool to see New Zealand open source software
doing well in the wider community.

I've also used it personally for a few things and I think the idea has really
good potential. It ties open decision making into a discussion quite well. Try
it out.

[https://github.com/loomio/loomio](https://github.com/loomio/loomio)

~~~
jessedoud
Thanks! We were stoked to get your pull request today :)

------
loomio
Thanks to everyone for checking out Loomio! If anyone has questions, please
feel free to ask away (several of the team members have answered a few
already).

~~~
audreyt
I'd just like to thank the loomio team for supporting Taiwan's
#CongressOccupied activities as chronicled in
[http://0sdc.tw/en](http://0sdc.tw/en) — you played a key part in ensuring a
safe and successful process, and will likely help on our future of
constitutional reform as well.

~~~
loomio
We were humbled to be able to support you, and it's reaffirmed our belief in
the importance of translations and accessibility in the app. All the best to
you in Taiwan!

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thangalin
Here is a different approach (a mash-up of StackExchange, reddit, Wikipedia,
and hallojs):

* [http://davidjarvis.ca/world-politics/](http://davidjarvis.ca/world-politics/)

* [https://bitbucket.org/djarvis/world-politics/](https://bitbucket.org/djarvis/world-politics/)

See also:

* [http://hallojs.org/](http://hallojs.org/)

~~~
whimful
it's an interesting approach. I would be interested to see whether world-
politics is capable of generating and addressing a range of diverse
perspectives.

in my experience, without a focus on dialogue this isn't easy.

~~~
thangalin
A good point. A friend of mine pointed me to six hats[1]. Currently the mock-
up mirrors a two-level reddit in its dialogue with a tight focus on facts (the
information-based white hats).

The advantage of having only facts is that the interface is simpler. The
disadvantage is that not all views might be represented, thus impeding
dialogue.

[1]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Thinking_Hats](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Thinking_Hats)

------
hypnotics
Loomio is a great platform. A simple, yet elegant way to tap into the
collective knowledge and decision making in organizations. Really recommend
it!

I've already supported the crowdfunding and planning on contributing to the
open source community as well. There is huge potential in Loomio!

~~~
loomio
Thanks so much! Right from the start, Loomio has been a community-driven
project, and we only exist because of everyone's support.

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Theodores
This concept reminds me of the non-hierarchical decision making by consensus
process that groups such as 'Reclaim the Streets' tried to implement a couple
of decades ago.

However, 'Reclaim the Streets' never asked anyone for any donations. That made
them very different to your typical 'save the world' group where the main
point of the org/charity is just that, soliciting donations.

Like many people here I don't quite get what the money is needed for, even
though it is spelled out. I also had a look at the github and it looks like
things are aeons away from the 'Wordpress 5 minute install'. The Wordpress 5
minute install really is too much technical wizardry for a lot of folk, they
need an 'I.T. Expert' (TM) to do it for them. Wordpress offer hosted versions
to get around this trifle and I am sure that is the way to go, however, if you
are open sourcing the code and expecting people to host their own, being open
source is not enough, it has to be reasonably easy to install.

Every man, dog and cat rolls a few Rails apps before their breakfast in The
Valley, so it is no big deal. Yet for the people that are just about okay
uploading something like Wordpress to their 'FTP server' and setting up a
database through some hideous 'cPanel' contraption do matter. These are the
people likely to be administrators of a group somewhere that could benefit
from your software.

~~~
loomio
It is indeed inspired by consensus decision-making, although the Loomio
platform can work for various decision-making protocols not just 100%
consensus. It just nudges groups away from strict majority-rules or one-way
communication (polls with pre-defined options), which leads to a lot more
meaningful participation and better outcomes for groups.

A big focus for the next phase is making installing your own instance a lot
easier. We're going to release a docker file for Loomio 1.0. But just in case
you weren't clear, there is also a cloud-hosted version that anyone can use
without technical expertise.

------
derekrazo
Speaking from experience, Loomio is a wonderfully effective decision making
platform. :)

~~~
killerpopiller
how does it ensure that only one person gets one account?

~~~
jessedoud
We're interested in exploring cryptographic anonymization. But the truth is,
most groups don't need it.

~~~
toomuchtodo
What about using SMS/Facebook auth?

~~~
whimful
for auth at the moment we have (in no particular order): google, facebook,
persona

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mrmondo
Great project, have my $12.

FYI - the website takes a very long time to load in Australia, I would suggest
using a CDN to improve international load times.

~~~
whimful
good to know, we're on cloudflare, and do have caching in place. were there
any pages in particular that were slow?

~~~
mrmondo
Sorry only just saw this, it was the front / landing page. It seemed to be
very sluggish, especially if you are already using cloudflare, unfortunately
Australia's internet is atrociously slow compared to NZ's (oh how I miss it!)
so it's very noticeable if a page is even slower than usual. Perhaps make a
free NewRelic account and have a look to see what you can easily target as low
hanging fruit (long db queries etc...)

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smedvedev
Great start guys! Wishing you all the best making that great product. I
believe it can bring a lot of value to the World

~~~
loomio
Hey, thanks so much! We really appreciate the encouragement.

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chatman
Nothing more than a fancy discussion forum.

~~~
jonlemmon
Well, it's not really fancy. In terms of discussion forums, Discourse is much
more fancy than what we've built.

But, unlike most forums, we've tailored every feature toward bringing
discussions to consensus. And when you're trying to decide something online,
that makes a big difference.

~~~
xerophtye
And from the looks of it, you did a great job!! Exploring your "how to make a
decision on loomio" right now.

~~~
jonlemmon
Thanks!! :)

