
Driving has lost its cool for young Americans - robg
http://www.grist.org/transportation/2011-12-27-driving-has-lost-its-cool-for-young-americans?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=gristacct
======
tptacek
I live on the western edge of Oak Park and our office is on top of the Jackson
blue line stop; that stretch of the blue line is one of the better, faster
public transit runs in the US.

Meanwhile, my driving connection to my office is I-290, the Ike, one of the
most congested highways in the US.

I'm pretty optimally situated to take advantage of public transit.

And yet a commute on the blue line, in addition to being much less pleasant
than the freeway (the trains at peak time are packed) takes roughly an hour.
Even in rush hour, driving to the office is so much faster it makes a
meaningful difference in my morning logistics. After hours, the train still
carves an hour out of my life, and the drive is practically like
teleportation.

I've done the blue line for months at a time (car trouble, &c) and I don't
mind it and I'm happy I have the option, but there's a litany of car
unpleasantness on this thread, and I want to contribute an honest
counterpoint.

~~~
allertonm
Are you a young American?

~~~
tptacek
Depends on who's asking. Most HN'ers would call me old.

------
natesm
I associate cars with constant paranoia. Will I run out of gas, will my tire
explode because I forgot to put enough air in it (or put too much), will I
lose focus for a second and kill a family of four? If I leave my car
somewhere, will it still be there when I come back? If it isn't, was it
stolen? Was it towed? How will I find out, and what will I do if I'm able to
find out? Will it disappear when I am sleeping, or will parts of it disappear
along with a broken window?

Or... I could put a card in my wallet. I could tap my wallet on a
turnstile[1], a gate slides open, a train arrives every 5 minutes or so, and I
ride anywhere in the city for a flat rate. This seems a lot "cooler" than
dealing with maintaining my own personal transport pod.

[1] in Boston, in New York you still have to take it out and swipe.

~~~
ams6110
_I associate cars with constant paranoia_

Now you know how many people feel about their computers...

~~~
Zirro
Is this really the case? Most non-technical people I talk to don't seem to
care about security or maintenance, unless it prevents them from performing
their daily computer-activities.

~~~
seanp2k2
haha, this is interesting because I feel like I'm much more paranoid now that
I'm pretty deep into security. I run a ton of Firefox privacy extensions and
it still freaks me out.

For the curious: \- AdBlock+, because public Wi-Fi is slow and I don't like
using more bandwidth than necessary \- NoScript in "allow global" mode (still
catches some XSS and other nastiness) \- RequestPolicy (like noscript but for
cross-site requests; also great for only looking at text as most big sites now
host CSS/JS/images on a CDN) \- Priv3 (blocks most opt-in social media
integration while still letting it function if you want) \- Ghostery (blocks
tracking cookies/pixels/other methods) \- Certificate Patrol (alerts you to
any changes to SSL certs on sites -- it's surprising how often many sites
change SSL up. Protects you from spoofing if you pay attention) \- HTTPS
Everywhere \- MAFIAAFire (Gee! No Evil! to un-filter Google autocomplete,
Pirate Bay Dancing, and Redirector to circumvent Department of Homeland
Security DNS hijacking) \- Header Spy because I do lots of debugging web apps
and it lets me quickly robtex a server. \- Wappalyzer to see what CMS or
common software the site is running on

I'm pretty tinfoil'd up and still paranoid.

~~~
Zirro
That makes us two. I run with the first three and a couple more of those you
mentioned (although NoScript isn't in global mode, if you can bother with
RequestPolicy, why not NoScript as well?). I know about most of the others you
mentioned but don't feel the need for them (yet), however I'll look into
Certificate Patrol.

You may want to check out: <https://addons.mozilla.org/en-
US/firefox/addon/betterprivacy> \- BetterPrivacy, if you haven't taken care of
it's features in other ways.

------
jgn
This sums it up for me:

"The decline in driving by younger Americans is fed by many factors: the high
cost of gas and insurance at a time of economic insecurity; tighter
restrictions on teen drivers in many states; and roads that are more congested
than ever, making driving less fun than ever."

But I'd add that cars used to be cool, and right now there aren't any cars I
seriously want to drive. My dad and his brothers could afford muscle cars and
they loved driving them, it was cool as hell. I can't relate to that at all.

~~~
WalterBright
Driving a fire-breathing muscle car you put together yourself is pure joy.

~~~
mturmon
Yep, I live in a neighborhood where all the teenage boys worship at the altar
of Fast and Furious, and I didn't totally believe the article's thesis.

They have not only muscle cars, as you mention, but hacked together roadsters,
freaky modded VWs bugs, tuned Hondas, lowered El Caminos, and raised 4WDs. Not
to mention the motorcycles.

The idea of moving to Copenhagen and pedaling a bicycle to the tram stop does
not seem to have seized their imagination in quite the same way that Vin
Diesel has. ;-)

------
TechNewb
We Americans often think we have a well developed public infrastructure until
we visit almost any other developed nation in the world, from Korea to France,
to even China, they all have 'expected' rail systems.

Why is America so far behind in a developed transit and public infrastructure?

~~~
tptacek
First, I think it's easy to ignore the fact that the US Interstate System is a
monumental public infrastructure achievement. You can learn this the way I
did: cross over from rural Montana to Alberta. Even the bleakest, most
desolate part of the US has roads better than the TCH, and you don't get to
the TCH for several hours from the southern border of Alberta.

Second, for its core purpose --- not moving people from home to vacation, but
for moving products between manufacturing centers, ports, and consumers ---
the US has a powerful and reasonably effective rail infrastructure. Read
Buffett's shareholder note after buying Burlington Northern.

Third, if (say) 80-90% of public transit is commuter transit, keep in mind
that most US major metros have tolerably effective public transit, and many
(NYC, Chicago, DC, &c) have extremely good public transit.

While you think about that remember also that the real estate bubble and
artificially low commuter costs (cheap gas, &c) distorted public transit in
our metro areas by encouraging the development of exurb suburbs that can't
cost-effectively be addressed by rail. It's possible that within the next 20
years, they won't be cost-effective for cars either, and that problem will
self-correct as housing values in exurbs plummet and families move back into
the public transit rings around the cities.

Put differently, because maybe that point seems banal ("suburbs bad!"),
consider that in complaining about transit, we may effectively be complaining
that it is hard to link a city with what should be a corn field in the middle
of nowhere. Well, yeah?

Then read everything everyone else writes about long distance high speed rail.

I'd love to have it. People made fun of STL->CHI high speed rail, hoping
instead for coast-to-coast or Chicago->Detroit->Cleveland->NYC, but STL->CHI
would link two major metros and allow companies to expand between the cities;
for instance, it would allow us to hire out of STL and serve STL companies as
house accounts.

But the flip side of high-speed rail is that it's simply not cost-competitive
over the distances we're dealing with, especially once you factor the cost of
deploying it, which is spectacular. Just look at the problems California had
with secure rights of way.

It's easy for Europe to have effective rail, because Europe is comparatively
tiny; the distance from Berlin to Rome is just a little more than twice the
distance the Acela runs; Acela's got nowhere to go north of Boston, and
extending it to Atlanta would make Acela longer than Berlin-Rome.

~~~
TechNewb
I agree with your insights.

>>But the flip side of high-speed rail is that it's simply not cost-
competitive over the distances we're dealing with, especially once you factor
the cost of deploying it, which is spectacular. Just look at the problems
California had with secure rights of way.

The longer we wait, the more expensive it will become. I say we should act now
and swift. Instead of bailing out failing financial systems, we should have
solely put that money to our infrastructure. That would have put deserving
people to real work. Imagine how much harder it will become in another 20
years, and this is the future of America we are talking about.

Also, I believe cities ordinances should start outlawing the development of
the traditional suburb. It should not be legal for these developers to build
suburbs with out having a library, hospital, and school in walking distance.
Having grown up in a suburb, and traveled the world a bit, I want nothing to
do with suburbs. The reason why many in our government likes suburbs is
because it encourages consumerism. Some have even argued that the reason why
we solely have an almost auto based public transit system is because of auto
lobbyist in congress during the 20th century. Although of course there have
been many other social economic factors as well, such as 'white flight', as
you touched upon.

~~~
tptacek
City ordinances can't outlaw the development of suburbs.

Counties can, but it'd be suicidal, because the people it would push out of
the county are the wealthiest and most important part of the tax base.

Cities can tax suburbs by imposing commuter costs, but that tactic is in
tension with the city's need to keep businesses, which will move out of the
city if it penalizes the workforce.

I think parking is generally too cheap, and tolls are generally to low. But
apart from that, I think the "white flight" stag hunt will eventually be
counteracted by a "suburban decay" stag hunt that'll contract populations back
into the cities.

The only thing I can see that would prevent that would be cost-effective
personal transportation (say, hydrogen fuel cell), which would be a
_vindication_ of the suburbs.

------
andyl
Driving sure has lost its cool for me. The traffic and wasted time. The fuel
and insurance costs. Making time for car services, oil changes, smog checks.
Dealing with the DMV.

Yuck. I hope our relationship with the car changes.

Self driving cars. Cars-as-a-service. Improved public transit. Bike-friendly
cities. Remote work. Etc. I'll be watching with interest.

------
joshuaxls
I recommend stick shifts to everyone. It should take all four limbs to drive a
car.

When "driving a car" means turning a key and then pointing it in the right
direction, it's no surprise the experience has lost its luster. If your life
is about constantly being online, then I see the article's point—public
transit is your best option. If you enjoy driving, then get a car that's fun
to drive.

Unfortunately the appeal of manuals is lost on most Americans.

~~~
RobAtticus
For me, the luster is lost because driving is typically high stress. Having to
drive a manual would only increase the number of things I need to concern
myself with and make it more stressful. I realize I'm probably in the
minority. Particularly because about the only place I don't mind driving is on
the highway, probably because I usually just cruise in one lane without having
to make many decisions except when I need to exit or the occasional lane
change.

~~~
Zak
No, you're not in the minority. I think the majority of Americans don't
actually like _driving_. They might see the car as a status symbol, or as
freedom or as necessary. They might prefer to be a driver than a passenger due
to issues of power, control or trust but few actually get much out of the act
of _driving_.

I love driving a good sports car with a manual transmission. I'm the minority,
not you.

------
cantbecool
I think the decline of younger Americans driving is because of the overall
economic climate in the US, not because it's uncool. Talk to any 18-25 year
old and ask if they would like to have a car if they could financially swing
it, and the majority of the time they would say yes.

As a young adult myself I'd love to own a car, but it's almost impossible to
have enough capital to pay for insurance, maintenance, petrol, the auto, and
my student loans. I'd be digging myself into a financial ditch I wouldn't be
able to get out for over 20 years.

~~~
TheFuture
I agree with you. All the evidence shows that the lack of young people driving
is economic. All Americans are driving less right now.

~~~
seanp2k2
It's a great situation for the millions of young people living in suburbs,
where the lack of a car basically means that they need to bum rides or stay
home.

Sprawl sucks.

------
LeafStorm
Driving has definitely "lost its cool" for me. My permanent residence is in a
small suburb of a small city that is right on the border of Randolph County
(i.e. Redneck Central), and before I went to university, I drove everywhere.

But I didn't take my car with me to university. Instead, I use the thrice-
daily Piedmont train to get back and forth from Raleigh and home every couple
of weeks, and while I'm in Raleigh I either walk or ride the bus to get
around. And now that I'm at home on Christmas break, I have realized how much
of a bother driving really is. Sure, you can just get up and go whenever and
wherever you want, but you have to deal with traffic, buy gas, pay for
maintenance on your car... It's a pain even in High Point (a small city of
only about 100,000), and I have no doubt that it would be even more of a pain
in Raleigh, to say nothing of Charlotte, Atlanta, or New York.

------
barrkel
I'm 32. I've never been interested in driving; I didn't get a driving license
until I was about 28. I used to cycle everywhere in my small town, and take
buses after that. For a year, I used to commute by train to college; a
distance of about 54 miles took about 1 hour total.

Now that I can drive, I still have no interest in a car. Mind you, I live in
London, where driving a car is very expensive; just congestion charges and
parking alone would make it more expensive than public transport, never mind
fuel costs, insurance and depreciation.

But scooters in the city: that's another game altogether, almost literally. In
the UK, filtering / lane splitting is legal, and nowhere is it as gleefully
taken advantage of as in London. Getting from A to B is such a joy I
frequently go out into the evening rush hour (I work from home) merely to
entertain myself, cutting through the traffic.

Two wheels: no congestion charge, much better fuel consumption, significantly
cheaper insurance, parking is cheap or usually free outside of Westminster,
and the weather is almost always mild. It's very hard to beat. And overall,
the cost is less than public transportation if you're not living in central
London (where you'll take the hit in rent prices or living circumstances
instead).

------
BadassFractal
Cars are expensive, maintenance is expensive, insurance is expensive, traffic
is a pain and giant waste of time, tolls on bridges add to the costs.

There are maybe a couple of activities that I still cannot do without a car,
such as getting tons of groceries (say, going to Costco), transporting
anything heavy, and doing road trips. Something like ZipCar already addresses
most of those.

Also, I always feel bad for driving, it feels lazy from both a physical
exertion standpoint (I live in a highly urbanized area, it's not like I have
miles of cornfields to cross), and burning gas does nobody a favor.

Can't wait for some sort of personal automated pods to be developed.

------
yason
Depends. I'm European and I'm not that young anymore so I'm not exactly the
subject demography here but I think driving is tremendously enjoyable and cars
can have an unexplainable personal connection to some people, including
myself.

However, what isn't and what certainly isn't cool is if I had to spend a half
an hour on the road, driving to/from work each day. Going to the office, I
just take the tram if weather doesn't suit cycling. I'd never move to a place
where I'd need a car to go to work or do my chores. A few times a year I end
up driving in rush hour traffic and each time just enforces that opinion of
mine.

I think that as soon as the car becomes a commodity, it loses much of its
appeal.

For me, it's still somewhat of a luxury: I could do without it. I keep a car
because I love to go on long trips driving myself, instead of taking the train
or bus. And I love to occasionally drive to some place where I have chores to
do but I can't easily reach by public transit, such as shops and spare parts
stores in industrial zones, or picking somebody up in downtown or airport. Or
just drive to go swim in a neighbouring city where I know they have an
especially nice pool. I clock maybe 15,000km per year doing that. And there
are weeks I don't start my car once.

But then again, I don't text much either. I don't even always take my mobile
phone with me when I go out. So, go figure.

------
jmspring
Born and raised in the Bay Area, mostly living in the suburbs until I went to
college in Santa Cruz. Biking and the bus, there are pretty optimal. The rest
of the suburban Bay Area, not so much -- unless you are near BART and want to
get to the city or Berkeley.

I have driven since I was 16. Over 20 years later, I still enjoy it. What I
don't like? Commuting. Unfortunately, if one wants to rely on public transit
in Silicon Valley, you will either make compromises in time or cost of living
(or location to live). Bay Area roads and freeways are pretty bad. Thankfully,
for me, I commute off hours twice a week and am at home other times.

Back to the joy of driving though -- the road trip is quintiscential
Americana. The open road, radio blasting, and just letting the miles go by. If
one can get out of the major metro areas (or vacation time traffic routes),
you can just go...Highway 395 from the Canadian border, down through the high
desert and into the Sierras; or getting out during the low season and driving
down the Pacific Coast Highway; or taking it a bit slower and experiencing the
gold country with Highway 49 and Highway 20...I could go on...

Unfortunately, this enjoyment means getting away from people, density, and
traffic...

~~~
seanp2k2
This really makes me miss California. What a privilege to have the scenic
views AND the world centre for tech innovation in the same place (bay area). I
seriously cannot wait to move there.

------
michaelcampbell
> When we worry about driving and texting, we assume that the most important
> thing the person is doing is piloting the car. But what if the most
> important thing they're doing is texting?

I can't even imagine the thought process that would even consider this
question.

~~~
sliverstorm
I don't see it myself, but I just looked at my cell phone bill a few weeks
ago, and my sibling (junior to me) had sent some 5,000 text messages that
month. Seeing that makes me understand just a little bit better.

~~~
michaelcampbell
I can only _HOPE_ that the author meant, "What if the most important thing TO
THE DRIVER is texting?"

Then it's a matter of readjusting said driver's priorities.

------
szopa
I am 26, and when I was living in Europe (Poland) I didn't even bother to get
a driver's license - getting around by public transportation was cheaper and
faster (especially if you take in account the time you need to find a parking
spot and walk from it to your destination). However, moving to the Bay Area
made me reconsider. Not being able to drive is a serious handicap. Not only
there's no public transportation, but also everything seems to be optimized
for cars (no sidewalks in some places, traffic lights giving a low priority to
pedestrians, highways all over the place). I tried biking, but the cars seem
unfriendly in a way that scares me.

------
rmason
I think its for two reasons - cars are way more expensive and less exciting.
Growing up I knew two kids with paper routes that bought Corvettes by their
18th birthday. Try spend six years working at the mall and doing that today.

My first car in college a '69 Mustang fastback is by far the most exciting
ride I've ever had.

[http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/4/282/941/3820297...](http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/4/282/941/38202970001_large.jpg)

Cars under $50K today are mostly boring. Most of my younger friends see cars
as transportation and nothing more.

~~~
Zak
> Cars under $50K today are mostly boring.

I too lament that fact, but there are a few non-boring cars under $30k. The
Subaru WRX, Mazda Miata and (soon) the Toyota GT-86/Subaru BRZ strike me as
not boring, but it seems to me that the market for these cars has shrunk.
People actually seem to _want_ boring cars now.

~~~
seanp2k2
Yup, everyone in Michigan here has SUVs and trucks and these new "crossover"
things which are secretly just station wagons designed by the people who did
art direction for TRON. Seriously, look at this thing:
[http://www.dieselstation.com/pics/Ford-Edge-
Sport-2011-car-p...](http://www.dieselstation.com/pics/Ford-Edge-
Sport-2011-car-pics.jpg)

I am way more excited about bikes than I am about fancy cars. Nice bikes are
within the financial reach of almost anyone, and cycling skill makes a big
difference because you can actually push yourself and your machine to the
limits in the city.

Save the sports cars for the track.

------
cafard
I can say that driving was vastly cooler 40 years ago, where I lived then,
than it is here and now. There were limited access highways and even side
roads where one could drive recklessly (usually) without fatal consequences.
Some of the things I saw done during the commute to and from high school would
lead to a wreck in a block or two under the conditions of traffic now.

But really it is pointless to compare the US to Denmark. Does New Jersey have
a population density comparable to Denmark's? New Jersey north of the Raritan,
even?

------
wes-exp
Well, on the bright side there is no "car piracy" that can be blamed for the
decline. (Since you can't download a car)

Seriously, though, I think there are just a lot of things competing for
people's attention, young or otherwise. There are many activities you can do
at home / online nowadays, and these naturally displace some activities that
would have involved driving somewhere.

------
devs1010
I have felt this way myself, currently I live in a city with terrible public
transportation where you have to drive everywhere, I drive pretty far to and
from work and it just wears on me. I'd like to move somewhere where I don't
have to drive as much, however I also don't much like living in really high
density areas so its a bit of a dilemma.

------
sliverstorm
Good heavens. I had no idea. So many replies here on HN so far seem to concur
as well!

I am young, and I love motoring. I guess I am out of touch. But, I suppose it
wouldn't be the first time.

Though there is one major problem encroaching on my enjoyment- the decline of
the sports car. The number of true-blue sports cars coming out of car makers
is steadily declining. I can only pray it does not grow worse in the future.

------
nlawalker
American youth may have fallen out of love with automobiles, but they are as
hopelessly attracted as ever to convenience and the ability to change their
minds at a whim, neither of which jive well with public transportation in its
current state.

