
Major AI conference is moving to Africa in 2020 due to visa issues - imartin2k
https://venturebeat.com/2018/11/19/major-ai-conference-is-moving-to-africa-in-2020-due-to-visa-issues/
======
Radim
Lest you think this is a problem only for Africans & USA:

I was denied visa, going to present my paper at NIPS 2010 in Vancouver,
Canada. Czech citizen (EU), PhD student at the time, with obvious ties to CZ.

I fully respect each country's right to refuse anyone, including without
providing a reason (as was the case with me). I see it as "their loss" :-) You
pesky computer scientists, stay away!

~~~
falcor84
Regarding the right to refuse anyone, I was of the same opinion myself but
mostly changed my mind after reading this article posted on HN:

[http://www.owl232.net/papers/immigration.htm](http://www.owl232.net/papers/immigration.htm)

I now find this to be a very interesting and subtle ethical question

~~~
everybodyknows
The essay is missing a couple of sections:

3.6 Social Peace

When large swathes of the work force suffer falling income sure to competition
from immigrants, anger will rise to dangerous levels.

3.7 Maintenance of Social Capacity for Self-Governance

Rule of law through government institutions, rather than by an elite of
cronies through hired thugs, is possible only under certain conditions.
Foremost of these being: 1) Engagement of citizens in government, going beyond
the minimum of showing up at a polling booth every four years, and 2)
Sufficient education to understand what's being voted upon.

Though both of these are questions of degree rather than Boolean propositions,
both nevertheless remain requirements of existential gravity for any free
society.

The election of 2016 shows just how imperiled 3.6 and 3.7 have become here in
the United States.

The author, writing back in 2010, lacked the 2016 evidence.

------
homarp
from
[https://mobile.twitter.com/jm_alexia/status/1064206569141923...](https://mobile.twitter.com/jm_alexia/status/1064206569141923843)

"Homosexuality is a criminal offense in Ethiopia, there's no way I'm ever
submitting an abstract to #ICLR next year... I can't risk my life.

I guess there will be more racial diversity, at the cost of no more #LGBT
diversity."

~~~
digianarchist
When I read Africa I assumed they would be hosting it in South Africa which
would be a much better choice for LGBT. Pretty much every other country would
be a bad choice.

------
gmueckl
Stories like this make me realize how unfairly privileged I actually am by
having the passport that I have. I can go damn near anywhere in the world
without much fuss. But I was just lucky enough to be born on the right side of
some line that somebody drew on a map at some time in the past. The folks a
few km distant - on the other side of that line - don't have that same luxury.

It is kind of sad that we have this way of carving up the world into arbitrary
pieces and calling us "us" and them "the enemy".

~~~
beginningguava
>It is kind of sad that we have this way of carving up the world into
arbitrary pieces and calling us "us" and them "the enemy".

It's not arbitrary, our ancestors in many cases fought and died to establish
those lines so that they could live their lives how they wanted within those
lines. They worked hard so that their children and grandchildren and fellow
citizens could have better lives within those lines. To discount that as luck
is demeaning to the sacrifices of the people who came before you

~~~
rtpg
The reality of these lines are usually less noble than you describe in many
cases.

As an example, if you read about the motivations of specific actors in the
American revolutionary war, many of the top dissenters were basically
interested in not paying taxes and being the boss of their own piece of land
(instead of having oversight from across the pond). Nobody is ethically pure,
of course, but the main push for the revolutionary war was done out of massive
self-interest from people in power.

"There was a time that we were noble" is something that rarely plays out in
practice. Why should it? If anything humanity has gotten more, not less,
ethical and noble over time.

There's an idea of fighting for justice and truth, and then there's trying to
die to establish lines on a map. They're not the same thing, and I'd say that
it's rarely coinciding in practice

~~~
y4mi
thats absolutely true for america.

he might've been from europe though, and we really did have ... a lot of blood
wasted to draw out these lines... we kept killing each other for them

~~~
Ar-Curunir
That still isn't noble.

~~~
y4mi
depends on your definition of noble i guess.

bloodshed and misery of the commons is a very ... 'noble' thing. by which i
mean that every noble in europes history enjoyed it.

i'd agree to the spirit of your message though, and the grandparent post
probably as well. he probably didn't mean it like you interpreted it

------
nisuni
I welcome the choice of moving the conference to a place where there are no
logistic problems.

As a scientist, however, I abhor organizations such as BlacksInAI: in science
there’s no place for identity politics.

~~~
Jare
> in science there’s no place for identity politics

Sounds like a "theory vs practice thing". Do you believe that identity should
not, and/or does not affect a person's ability to practice science to the best
of their potential?

Of course I believe that in theory it should not but in practice it does.
Organizations that try to correct, compensate, steer, etc. things towards
where they should be, need to exist because things are not where they should
be. There is nothing unscientific about it, but maybe you have data to prove
otherwise. (I personally have no idea if BlacksInAI does this job well or not.
The choice of Ethiopia in this case does not look great)

~~~
nisuni
I believe that identity may affect a person’s ability to do science, since
there’s a correlations between identity and economic status.

That said, science is about equality of opportunities, not about equality of
outcomes.

This means that we should of course strive for having easier access to
universities for people of all backgrounds.

But after that Academia is PURE meritocracy.

Anyone who fights for more graduates with a certain identity, or more
researchers with a certain identity, or more professors with a certain
identity is SEVERELY misguided.

~~~
andybak
> But after that Academia is PURE meritocracy.

Are you claiming it is a pure meritocracy or that it aspires to being such? If
the former then I think that's remarkably optimistic to the point of naivety
so I'll presume you mean the latter.

~~~
nisuni
Academia is not perfectly meritocratic but is most likely the most
meritocratic environment in the world, particularly in science.

------
sandGorgon
not sure why they dont do India - has significant consular presence in African
countries (african medical tourism is huge in India) as well as being much
easier to reach from Western countries. We also have constitutional protection
for LGBT communities and privacy - something that Ethiopia lacks.

The Indian govt will throw money at you if you do something like this here.

~~~
nindalf
I don’t know that the Indian govt throws money at anything, so I’m not sure
about that part.

~~~
sandGorgon
here's a single point link to access all funding agencies -
[https://www.india.gov.in/research-development-funding-
scheme...](https://www.india.gov.in/research-development-funding-schemes-
central-government-departments-and-agencies)

here's the govt budget for AI - [https://inc42.com/buzz/budget-2018-ai-
ml/](https://inc42.com/buzz/budget-2018-ai-ml/)

NITI specifically recommends collaborative programs for funding (as well as
ethics organizations) -
[http://niti.gov.in/writereaddata/files/document_publication/...](http://niti.gov.in/writereaddata/files/document_publication/NationalStrategy-
for-AI-Discussion-Paper.pdf)

there's a crap ton of govt funding for initiatives like this. I interact with
the NITI Aayog personally on this.

~~~
nindalf
Good to know.

------
cauldron
It's easy to just blame the authorities, but people should also see that
almost any existing hurdle in the visa applying process is set up to solve a
problem, while it's unfortuanate that these measures have
unintended/undesirable effects, it also forestalled many visa fraud attempts.

People from certain effectively balck-listed Chinese regions are much harder
to get it done.

I know here in China people would exploit every loophole and weak point they
can find to get a visa to the US etc, either to study, born babies, or apply
asylum. They would exchange latest info about where and which VO is easier to
pass, how to best frame your story, like white middle-aged woman is more
likely to pass etc, these behaviors in turn are pushing the bars higher and
higher every year.

It's like that border wall, there are realistic problems on field that need to
be solved.

~~~
cauldron
Someone requested me to provide evidence for my claims, but deleted? I'll post
it anyway. I'm not a detective and don't have "evidence", all I said is what I
saw first hand the accounts of people doing it. It's an entire industry, I'll
just keep it simple and short.

Americans genarally don't realize how much their passport worth in other parts
of the world.

The key is entering America, any other thing doesn't matter, if you want to
smuggle you way in through Russai-Cuba-Mexico etc, you need to pay around
70-100K or something and it's not guaranteed.

So how to legally enter America? Either through universities, medical reasons,
or tourism. Like applying any for-profit American language school to "learn
English", PHD and extend it endlessly.

Once you entered, you can do what you wanted, to study then go back home, or
to earn money, illegal overstaying waiting for citizenship amnesty, or
applying for asylum. Chinese make up the majority of asylum seekers there.

The recent hot topic of birth tourism, there are two ways, do it on a tourist
visa and be possibly black-listed and visa revoked afterwards; or state your
intention to the VO, you need to frame a perfect story here to convince the
person that it's a medical cause, agencies will teach you to say American
hospitals are better, pain-free whatever, just don't say you want that
passport, but in reality all these people are there for the American passport.
It's best to delete any related things on your phone such as Wechat opon
entering in case evidence of visa fraud were found.

There's also a service that agencies would help you to apply for EB1-A (Alien
of Extraordinary Ability), publish paid papers, acquire paid awards etc. It's
said (by his former friend) this guy paid audiences to fill an entire American
theater for his show to help him apply it.
[https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-
canada/article...](https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-
canada/article/2085956/chinese-comedian-zhou-libo-against-weapon-drug)

You guys remember couple months ago, America said they no longer accept
domestic abuse as the reason for asylum? I can't say it's definitely related,
but it's a known easy way to get quick green card, you pay for a short term
sham marriage, then call the police for domestic abuse, go to court, then you
can divorce, not having to wait out 2 years' marriage.

------
raverbashing
Unfortunately this sounds more like a gimmick than anything else.

I have a small suspicion that those who decided for that never set foot in the
countries considered for this (though I might be wrong).

Though it is undeniable that there is talent there and we should try to make
things easier to them, there is a limit and a compromise in making things not
harder for other people as well.

As someone familiar with 3rd world country business, a lot of things people
take for granted _is not trivial_

~~~
rtpg
Just as a datapoint: the author of cURL basically can’t go to the US right now
for.... some reason [https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2018/07/28/administrative-
purgat...](https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2018/07/28/administrative-purgatory/)

The opaqueness of the US system is pretty high.

I do agree that other places have bigger problems. There won’t be too many
conferences in Saudi Arabia I bet.

~~~
nindalf
I love Daniel and the amazing work he’s done over the last several years ...
but that blog reads like a parody. He’s complaining about filling forms like
it’s the worst thing that’s ever happened to him. Meanwhile, for folks who
aren’t American/Canadian/European/Australian, this is just a regular Tuesday.

Typically when I file for visas I have to give detailed statements of all my
bank accounts, all my investments, my income tax statements for the last 3
years, a list of all the places I’ve travelled, medical insurance, a letter
from my employer guaranteeing that I’ll be back and god knows what else. This
was for an Australian visa btw, that allows visa free travel if you’re
American, Canadian or European.

That’s not even the half of it. A friend of mine applied for a Schenghen visa
for a 6 day trip and got a 5 day visa. The border agent then harassed him on
his way out for “overstaying” his visa.

Heaven forbid that people with privilege are subjected to the horrors of
filling forms.

~~~
pjc50
I think the point is that nobody should be subjected to that level of
intrusive bureaucracy.

~~~
rocky1138
I disagree. Someone who wishes to claim asylum or intends to move to a country
for life should be subject to a high level of scrutiny.

------
xvilka
Hopefully not only AI conferences will follow. For many it is a big problem to
obtain a visa in time. Others just prefer even to skip the conference just to
avoid the trouble.

------
jfk13
Why would the issue even come up? Do people go to AI conferences expecting to
have sex there?

~~~
elil17
Because you don’t have to actually have sex to be arrested for homosexuality

~~~
zeist
Sure, because they would try to prosecute a foreigner for his sexuality during
a science conference.

~~~
Filligree
They might. Going somewhere where your existence is illegal is a dumb idea.

------
thrw7877
In addition to helping other countries, which I think they should rightfully
do and am happy to hear about. I wonder if the A.I. community will invest in
educating the lesser privledged in their local communities? Mainly those from
poor areas that don’t have access to technology and educational resources?

~~~
anewhnaccount2
This is whataboutism.

