
How Zenefits just lost an engineer - adam_bickford
https://medium.com/@oscargodson/how-zenefits-just-lost-an-engineer-3f09898dbcf9
======
fsk
Getting a job isn't like getting married. If your potential spouse says "Well,
maybe, but I think I can find someone better.", forget it. It's OK for
employees to be shopping around. The days of lifetime employment are over.

Even if Zenefits turns into a unicorn, in a couple of years they'll get bought
out, have an IPO, or turn into a completely different work environment. It's
ridiculous to expect an employee to act like they're going to work at Zenefits
their whole career.

There are a lot of lazy hiring managers out there. If you get a good job or
good school on your resume, they'll assume you're highly skilled instead of
doing their own evaluation of you. (I have the opposite problem. Having only
had lousy jobs, I have a hard time getting people to take me seriously. With a
marquee name, I'd certainly be doing a lot better.)

As I get older, I'm getting better at recognizing toxic situations. It's a lot
better to walk away during the interview phase, instead of working there and
being forced to move on again quickly.

~~~
luckydude
I don't think the CEO was asking for an entire career commitment, that just
doesn't exist anymore.

There is a difference between "I'll be there for you" and "I'm job hopping".

I've been a hiring manager in the valley for over 20 years. Biggest red flag
is people who last less than a year or two at each job. Maybe I'm old but
weeding those people out has never been a bad choice in retrospect. Not once.

~~~
Hinrik
>Maybe I'm old but weeding those people out has never been a bad choice in
retrospect. Not once.

How could you know that?

~~~
luckydude
Because it's a small valley and you see where they go next and repeat the
behavior. A quick check on linkedin will tell you most of the time.

~~~
fsk
That's hiring 101. All the candidates you passed on were losers. Never
consider the possibility that you passed on someone great for a stupid reason.

------
chrisbennet
"I asked the car forum about whether I should go with the BMW or the Audi.
When The Audi dealer found out, they called me and said they didn't want me as
a customer if I wasn't totally committed to the Marque."

------
PhantomGremlin
IMO the Zenefits CEO came across poorly.

It's debatable whether or not he should have publicly rescinded the offer. But
after he did, "the die is cast".

The CEO should have had the guts to not edit his post. Especially after there
were headlines linking to the article, explaining what the CEO did, and yet
the CEO's words were gone. Very confusing.

Some other discussions about this:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9503020](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9503020)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9507076](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9507076)

------
al2o3cr
This seems like a great opportunity for the Zenefits board to save a few
bucks; since "wanting to work there" is so important, cut the CEO's pay in
half. How's THAT for "action", fucko?

------
a3n
No one will stay at one company for their career.

Therefore, the most important thing about a job (after acceptable pay and
benefits), is how well it's preparing you for you next job.

~~~
luckydude
As the nay sayer, I actually agree with this. Sort of. The job should make you
better and should make you worth more on the open market. But the other part
is you should have helped the company.

If your only focus is on how you get to make more money, you are doing it
wrong. You'll make more money if you make your company make more money. When
they don't reward you for making that money, it's time to move on.

------
soc
yea, couldn't agree more. For most employee's and employers alike it takes 3
months to really bond with the company.

Can see where both sides are coming from but sounds like they lost a good one.

------
Aeolun
Well, I certainly wouldn't want to work there any more if the first impression
their CEO makes is like this...

------
thrillgore
It's like nobody learned a valuable lesson from Yishan Wong about airing your
dirty laundry on the internet.

~~~
koube
What happened there? I haven't heard of this. I have seen an incident where a
former employee posted lots of false information about Yishan Wong and Reddit,
and Yishan responded in turn. I didn't think that was unjustified, and I
didn't see any backlash from that. Is this the same incident you are referring
to?

------
m3talridl3y
Ludicrous. This guy actually believes that anyone on his team really chose to
work there for reasons other than income, references, and perhaps a
challenging problem or two?

~~~
pauleastlund
Speak for yourself. I've chosen all of my jobs based on a pretty robust
combination of (a) income, (b) technical challenges, (c) project, (d) people
-- the team + the management. I don't think I've ever taken a job where (c)
and (d) weren't major factors in my decision, and I've repeatedly quit
lucrative jobs for substantially less lucrative ones because I was
dissatisfied with either the project or the people at my current gig.

I know there are plenty of people out there for whom life is relationships and
hobbies, and career is a way of subsidizing life. That's a totally respectable
set of priorities. There are also a lot of people, especially in the startup
world, who want more from their career than a comfortable job and a paycheck.
It's not crazy for a founder to seek out candidates who are motivated by those
other more enduring (and cheaper!) factors of love of the team and belief in
the mission.

------
luckydude
I'll get down voted to hell for this but this post reeks of someone young who
hasn't built a lasting business. Fine if you want to IPO and disappear but not
so fine if you want to stick around, take care of your employees and
customers.

To each their own but if I was interviewing someone who was already talking
about how they really want to go work somewhere else - I'd say exactly what he
said. Go apply there.

Bringing someone into a sustainable business is an investment. They aren't
going to show up and be a rock star on day 1, it doesn't work that way. They
are going to show up and have to learn how things work at that company and
figure out how to fit in and make a difference in that context. That takes
time. Learn the code, learn the process, learn the people, learn the
customers. Who does that in a day? Nobody. A new employee is maybe useful in a
year or so in the world I know. As a hiring manager I know I'm going to use up
a year or so of salary before I get any return on my investment. I don't
expect people to stay around forever but I want them to stay around long
enough that it works out for everyone. This guy didn't sound like a good
investment.

Just my opinion but I'm running an 18 year old company and my people have been
here for at least 8 years, that may have skewed my view of things.

~~~
chrisbennet
Heaven forbid that you ask for advice before making a major life decision...

~~~
luckydude
Asking advice is fine.

Asking if you should have a relationship with this girl because you really
want a hotter girl, that's not going to end well when you do it in front of
the less hot girl.

Commitment is a thing. Even if it is just for now, it's a thing. If you don't
get that, oh, well.

All the CEO was asking was that the guy committed to his job offer. He didn't,
it went away. Right call in my opinion. Yes, hiring is hard, getting good
people is hard, I get all of that. I also get the other side of it. Figuring
out who to hire is hard. This guy made that choice easy.

~~~
coryl
What do you mean by this: _Commitment is a thing. Even if it is just for now,
it 's a thing._

 _All the CEO was asking was that the guy committed to his job offer._

How do you "commit" to a job offer other than accepting it? Doesn't make much
sense.

~~~
jonsterling
@luckydude

If anyone ever says, “I like what you are doing, I want to help”, they are
probably just blowing smoke up your ass. We're workers. We want to get paid in
return for labor. It's not like choosing which non-profit you want to sit on
the board of.

~~~
luckydude
You are someone I'd have trouble hiring.

For the record, I pay better than google, apple, facebook, netflix for top
talent.

I hire people who want to help. And I'm super happy with the set of people
I've hired. I didn't use to pay that well because there wasn't enough money.
They stuck with me and the money thing got better.

The idea that you are just a worker makes me sad. If you are that, OK, but I
bet you are more than that. Very few people in tech are that sucky, most of us
can make a difference. Make that difference and demand the pay that your
difference made.

~~~
jonsterling
I make a huge difference wherever I have worked; you may ask any of my
employers. However, my interest and my soul are my own; they do not belong to
my employer. I do not even rent them to my employer.

But honestly, I couldn't imagine having so few interesting thoughts of my own
that I would actually willingly let myself be filled up with enthusiasm for
some ephemeral product, or some ephemeral business, or _even worse_ a "vision"
or a "mission". I've got better things to think about at night.

Also, re "just a worker", I am happier to be called a "worker" than any other
of the made-up terms which Capital has come up with in order to divide the
working class. It at least puts me in the right bucket as far as the class
struggle is concerned.

BTW, don't be too broken up about me not being a suitable hiring prospect for
you. I'm going to leave the hell-hole that is tech as soon as the school debts
are paid, and then go do something worthwhile.

