
In California, Uber Loses Another Round in Driver Debate - prostoalex
http://www.wired.com/2015/09/california-uber-loses-another-round-driver-debate/
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trjordan
Would this open the door to preventing Uber drivers from operating multiple
services at once? I've seen plenty of drivers with multiple phones up running
both apps.

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toomuchtodo
How would you prevent this if they use multiple phones? You couldn't.

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adventured
If you make Uber drivers employees, you can prevent it.

In the same way and for the same reason Google can prevent an employee from
working for both Apple and Google at the same time (by firing them).

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toomuchtodo
You can't govern what you can't detect.

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patrickaljord
Always sad to see the state dictating consenting and willing adults how they
should run their lives and work. I'm used to it though as a French.

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kuschku
Well, it’s simple: Currently, the drivers are liable to get insurance, get a
license, etc.

So, for example, if a uber driver has an accident, he has to pay himself for
all the costs.

This ruling also provides safety for the drivers, because the driver (which
has to behave as if he was an employee) now also gets the protections valid
for employees.

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pbreit
Uber provides insurance: [https://www.uber.com/driver-
jobs](https://www.uber.com/driver-jobs)

There are quite some major differences from being regularly employed. For
example, you can work whenever you want including never. Let me know what your
boss says about that.

~~~
FireBeyond
User's insurance isn't particularly great. For one, they make no mention of
requiring commercial vehicle insurance ([https://www.uber.com/driver-
jobs](https://www.uber.com/driver-jobs)) and say that drivers only need
personal vehicle insurance. They have contingent liability injury insurance
with a total available of $100K. They talk of having commercial insurance
during trips, but it is only third party liability and UI/UM. If you're a
passenger in an Uber accident and insurers decline to cover when they become
aware the vehicle was driven commercially, you're out of luck.

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ricree
What does this mean for Taxi drivers in California? My understanding was that
they also frequently operated as contractors.

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interesting_att
Don't think this will change much. Taxi drivers get to choose how they do
their job (i.e. who to pick up). Moreover taxi companies do not forbid
customers from tipping nor do they get a percentage of a taxi driver's
gratuity. Lastly, you can be a taxi driver at multiple companies, whereas Uber
has sent messages to some drivers not to drive for both Lyft + Uber.

~~~
aggronn
Maybe things are different in CA, but as a driver in FL:

> Taxi drivers get to choose how they do their job (i.e. who to pick up).

I can reject any fare.

> Moreover taxi companies do not forbid customers from tipping nor do they get
> a percentage of a taxi driver's gratuity.

Uber doesn't forbid me from getting tips, and doesn't take any of the tips
that I do get...

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toomuchtodo
Does Uber define what sort of vehicle you can use? Do they provide any sort of
guidelines or rules on how the work is done? Are you only providing services
for Uber?

If the above answers are yes, they're breaking the law.

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aggronn
>Do they provide any sort of guidelines or rules on how the work is done?

I wonder what constitutes rules on how the work is done. If I use a bike to
pick people up and drop them off, and I not doing the work, or am I doing the
work in a way that is violates the rules? If I pick people up and then drop
them off in the wrong place intentionally, am I not doing the work or am I
violating rules on how the work is done?

So is the car a specification for work or is it a guideline on how to do the
work? Seems like CA thinks its the latter, but I definitely see the argument
for the former. Its more clear cut in freelancing--the end product shouldn't
indicate the type of computer that it was developed on. For Uber, the car is
definitely part of the experience that you're being paid to provide as a
driver.

Anyways, i'm not qualified to speculate about any of this. I'm just going to
be unhappy if a decision similar to this somehow prevents me from making a few
hundred bucks every now and then for driving drunk people home from bars.

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toomuchtodo
[http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-
Employ...](http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-
Employed/Independent-Contractor-Defined)

[http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-
Employ...](http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-
Employed/Independent-Contractor-Self-Employed-or-Employee)

> Anyways, i'm not qualified to speculate about any of this. I'm just going to
> be unhappy if a decision similar to this somehow prevents me from making a
> few hundred bucks every now and then for driving drunk people home from
> bars.

I'm not qualified to speculate either, I'm just going to be unhappy if Uber is
permitted to continue to violate labor and transportation laws.

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pbreit
Casual drivers should obviously be able to be contractors. Fuller-time drivers
might deserve the choice.

I suspect there's a good chance Uber would make much more money on W-2 drivers
since they'd get minimum wage and Uber would keep the surge.

But the current model makes much more sense.

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forrestthewoods
Did this person get "fired" by Uber for having too low of a rating? I would
assume they can't get unemployment if they quit or simply stop driving.

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Spooky23
Getting disrupted sucks I suppose.

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joshdance
I used Uber for the first time today and loved the service. Never had a horse
in the race until now.

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ab1212
Good. Now I want Uber to go after their Employee for stealing my laptop, ipad,
and phone instead of brushing it off as requiring lawful intervention.

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Daishiman
You could probably sue successfully for that.

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troyastorino
Uber doesn't actually have to win these legal battles. They just need to
prolong the time until a definitive ruling on driver classification is made
until they are ready to roll out a driverless fleet. And prolonging the
outcomes of these legal cases 5 or 6 years (appeals, etc) seems pretty
reasonable.

There would be a political route to changing driving classification, but Uber
has an incredible lobbying machine.

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philwelch
Do you really think driverless cars will be globally ubiquitous in 5 or 6
years? It's not even clear the technology will be ready by then, and if it is,
the legal fight to get driverless cars permitted to operate without a licensed
driver able to take control will make these legal battles look trivial.

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snogglethorpe
Yes; given the technological and legal hurdles, they'll initially only be
allowed in certain constrained areas and uses. They're not going to be
anything like a widespread option for a long, long, time, and certainly not
something a company like Uber should be betting their business model on.

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pftom
Great! Otherwise drivers will be Uber's slaves.

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rm_-rf_slash
Slightly off topic, but it's rather poor form to use the term slaves to refer
to people who clearly aren't. Unless the driver had, say, taken out a loan
from Uber in order to pay for their car, they don't even meet the mark for
indentured servitude.

There are millions of actual slaves living on this planet, children and adults
forced into labor, sex, what have you. Calling someone with a shitty job a
slave devalues the meaning of the term and softens the reality that there are
right now more people than the number you have ever met in your life and
likely ever will who can be bought and sold as property.

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matthewcford
Not condoning the term, but most user drivers I speak to have taken a loan out
to pay for their car, or are paying high rents.

