
Older Adults Learning Programming: Motivations and Frustrations - danso
https://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/217281-older-adults-learning-computer-programming-motivations-frustrations-and-design-opportunities/fulltext
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hyperpallium
I've always had a terrible memory, both short-term and long-term. But this has
been an advantage, in a way: I could never memorize material and bluff my way
through. Instead, to remember it, I had to understand it. I think this helps
partly because you can always work it out from first principles (and just
remembering there's some tricky bit somewhere around here), partly the
familiarity required for understanding helps embed it, but mostly that I've
distilled it to a very simple model in my mind, that I've related to other
systems I already know. The meta-model becomes the more interesting thing.

It's hard work to uncover this model, often requiring chasing up foundations,
to see what's _really_ going up. And of course, sometimes you end up with the
wrong model (or a limited one). Unfortunately, most subjects don't seem to be
taught in terms of understanding - but I've had some rare lecturers and
textbooks that are so clear, you can work out what they'll say next, and solve
example problems the first time you see them.

I've always thought this understanding-oriented approach is a strong long-term
strategy, as I age. Although it means some subjects are too hard for me - like
human languages, history, geography, biology, medicine... and enterprise
application development (but I'm good at libraries).

~~~
_e
I think most people are in the same boat as you in terms of learning. I think
"bluffing your way" through classes or interviews only sets one up for failure
later. Learning the basics might be boring but one will find trouble getting
to the fun stuff without a strong foundation in the concept.

You would really like the course, "Learning How to Learn" on Coursera [0]. The
instructor wrote the book, "Mind for Numbers" [1] which is also great.

The course and book teach a great framework for actually learning and
comprehension.

[0] [https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-
learn](https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn)

[1]
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/039916524X/](https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/039916524X/)

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Quequau
I'm somewhat older and after retiring a little early I decided to return to
university. I confess that the experience is both humbling and frustrating
because I'm finding it much, much more difficult than the first time around.

I had the fantasy of getting a degree in a completely unrelated field and
finding a fun part time gig. Now, if I'm honest with myself, I'm not really
sure that I'm up for the task... and that's really disheartening.

~~~
thegayngler
My aunt was cleaning the houses of rich people for a living and then when she
was in her late 40's she decided to return to school. She ultimately earned
her degree in Accounting in her 50's and now she does all of the rich people's
taxes that she used to clean for.

~~~
corpMaverick
Awesome story!

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cafman
I've had a few students who were retired and were learning just for their own
interest but most of my "older" students are going to school to get themselves
to a paycheck. As someone who has learned programming on my own for some hobby
projects, learning programming is probably not the fastest way to a stable
income. Math, Sciences, and Computer Science are very demanding programs and
can be challenging for "older" students, not because they can't do the work
but because college is hard for someone with kids, mortgage, car payment etc.

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axaxs
I am really fascinated by this article, and hope more research is done. I'm
not near as old as those candidates, but still feel the effect. The older I
have gotten, the harder it is to remember things or learn on the fly.

I remember being 21 at a company, and claimed, and could, write anything they
wanted. The older members slowed me down with their inability to understand,
well, to me.

But I was writing awful code. To me it was beautiful and worked fine, but as I
learned more in years coming I learned design practices and testability, which
were nonexistent.

I think this is normal, but to me, sad. I have learned some bit of wisdom in
these years, but can admit my brain isn't as fast as it once was. Where's the
divide, where do I go? I'm a software engineer, that one day will be replaced
with a much younger, headstrong kid, who is much more productive, just as I
was back then.

~~~
Consultant32452
Fluid intelligence decreases with age, but crystallized intelligence continues
to grow. You (metaphorical you) really are slower than the younger, headstrong
kid. All hope is not lost though, you're still valuable on the market, you
just present a different value proposition than you did in your youth.

[https://www.verywell.com/fluid-intelligence-vs-
crystallized-...](https://www.verywell.com/fluid-intelligence-vs-crystallized-
intelligence-2795004)

~~~
RickS
> You (metaphorical you) really are slower than the younger, headstrong kid

It pains me to think that others are put off by this. My old self was indeed
much faster, and had plenty more stamina, but all that means I could make the
wrong decision at half the speed for twice the time. I wouldn't go back if I
could.

~~~
c517402
I don't think I ever knew where this quote came from, but it stuck.

"Computers let you make more mistakes faster than any invention in the history
of mankind, with the possible exception of tequila and hanguns."

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devoply
I don't want to sound discouraging but the problem with the profession is
multifold. First the problem is that the domain is very large and is
constantly changing. So the time investment is rather large to learn a
significant enough chunk to be useful. Second problem is that it requires a
lot of cognitive load in terms of remembering many different things and having
a good intuitive sense of why things are not working, which again requires a
lot of knowledge and experience. Third is the problem with the industry
itself, it's not properly valued by employers. A sub-par programmer for many
of the employers is completely useless. The low end employers all have no
money to spend, but yet want one person to do a job that requires deep
knowledge of many different things. All of these things taken together make a
very difficult profession to get into in your 50s, 60s, or 70s as it will take
you about a decade to get any good at it and then you will be fighting an
uphill battle to actually get a proper job as businesses don't find you in
their ideal demographic when hiring.

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hackermailman
The only way I remember is by doing exercises. I'll read examples and
understand immediately then not bother with the exercises only to forget later
unless I've done X instead of just learning X. If I have 20mins to spare I'll
often grab a text I've done and try and redo a few of the exercises to see if
I can remember and that also helps, I learned that method from an older post
here from somebody who suggested redoing material 6 months after to help
remember.

~~~
rimliu

      > I'll read examples and understand immediately then not
      > bother with the exercises
    

It's a trap a.k.a. the illusion of understanding. When you actually try to do
something you think you understood from just reading/watching, it turns out a
lot of small but essential parts were missed.

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epalmer
I'm 63 but learned to code a long time ago. My ability to see connections,
abstractions and the like is better than ever. I do find that distractions
like background noise or other competing tasks reduces my ability to solve the
complex problems. I have to really isolate and focus. I also find benefit from
listening to [http://brain.fm](http://brain.fm)

~~~
raarts
56 yo here. Since a year on a learning spree: Docker Swarm, CI/CD, React, RN
after a life of C/PHP/Python and -later on -C-level management. Not aware that
I'm slower these days, but slightly harder to focus, so using a headset.

~~~
epalmer
I've got a two year plan. 2017 CSP (Certified Scrum Participant) then in 2018
take the [http://fast.ai](http://fast.ai) course. Maybe the Stanford ai course
as well. 63 and still learning.

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epalmer
The author of the study is on a recent Talk Python to Me podcast that I just
finished listening to. [https://talkpython.fm/episodes/show/112/geeking-out-
in-the-g...](https://talkpython.fm/episodes/show/112/geeking-out-in-the-
golden-years)

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kruhft
I feel the problem is that people are not using the correct metaphors.
Everyone is a programmer; every time you ask someone to do something for you
you are programming.

I direct one to the opening of Structure and Interpretation of Computer
Programs to really learn what programming is:

[https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-
Z-H-5.html...](https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-
Z-H-5.html#%_chap_Temp_2)

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The primary task of a programmer is to abstract, not instruct. But everyone
does that also.

~~~
analog31
We all instruct and abstract, but imprecisely, because the people we're
dealing with can either fill in the blanks, or they're inclined to agree with
and follow us even if we're wrong. I remember one of the first things my
programming teacher said was: Computers are stupid. They can only do what you
tell them. That's a hurdle.

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EternalData
Super interesting reading -- thanks for this!

