
Apple Plans iPhone for Japan With Tap-to-Pay for Subways - coloneltcb
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-25/apple-said-to-plan-iphone-for-japan-with-tap-to-pay-for-subways
======
dvcrn
A FeliCa based iPhone? I will buy it instantly.

For a long time Android phones had the lead when it comes to paying digitally
with phones in Japan and Korea. Their open NFC API allows for all sort of cool
things like reading the balance of your card.

Japan has FeliCa more or less everywhere. Close to all IC cards are based
around it and even in the time before smartphones, people in Japan were
already able to pay with their feature phones which featured FeliCa chips.
Nowadays you still need a special Android phone that supports it, though
lately you can also get Samsung ones.

In Korea there are luckily close to no FeliCa terminals but still an iPhone is
useless.

Providers here in Japan even started selling "NFC cases" that you put your
iPhone in which then connects via bluetooth with the phone -- just so you can
pay with your phone.

Bringing this in will be a huge deal. I know a lot of people who pick Android
purely because they can pay with it. There are even a lot of people who have 2
phones, one iPhone that is their main phone and one purely for paying
digitally.

~~~
guptaneil
> There are even a lot of people who have 2 phones, one iPhone that is their
> main phone and one purely for paying digitally.

Why not just carry the iPhone and a traditional card?

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the_mitsuhiko
It's so disappointing that apple locks away the NFC chip. NFC payments are
widespread in Europe but the fees are so low that Apple Pay needs to make
special deals with banks and they don't care largely to share a tiny share
with apple who does not add anything.

I would love if my bank just had a way to provide their own wallet solution on
iOS but currently there is no way :(

~~~
tjl
My best guess is that the NFC chip is locked for security and that it's highly
linked to the secure enclave. Maybe it's discussed in the iOS Security
document? I haven't checked.

Apple has a habit of introducing something very locked down and slowly adding
features and opening up. We've been seeing this particularly in extensions
recently and we've finally got some Siri support, if only in specific domains.

~~~
c0g
That's what apple claims[1]:

"Providing simple access to the NFC antenna by banking applications would
fundamentally diminish the high level of security Apple aims to have on our
devices"

[1] [http://fortune.com/2016/08/11/apple-pay-tech-banks-
security/](http://fortune.com/2016/08/11/apple-pay-tech-banks-security/)

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
I do not understand what the attack vector here would be. Can someone
elaborate?

~~~
MBCook
You could make an app that pretends to be a payment terminal so you hold your
phone near someone else's and trick them into paying you as they try to unlock
their phone with TouchID.

Or (and this seems REALLY probable) people make apps to 'help' you pay or
track you spending and pay/etc. But they now have very sensitive banking data
so that's insecure.

How about CurrenC or Walmart or some other company makes their own NFC payment
thing on a different standard that isn't compatible with standard terminals.
Now anyone who uses that new payment system is vulnerable to any bugs in that
implementation as opposed to a very well tested system like the current NFC
stuff (which I'm sure has shortcomings, but at least is well understood).

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
> You could make an app that pretends to be a payment terminal so you hold
> your phone near someone else's and trick them into paying you as they try to
> unlock their phone with TouchID.

So? You can already do that. You can put an NFC shell around your phone which
connects with bluetooth and that is being done already. You can touch an
Android phone or anything else. Same story.

~~~
MBCook
You can't do that because _you have to buy extra hardware_. All of a sudden
everything you need would be built in. That makes it WAY more practical of an
attack. All of a sudden ANY phone can be used.

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lathiat
London bypassed this and you just tag on/off with your standard contactless
payment card, it only bills you once a day at the end.

Used it last week with Apple Pay on my Phone, worked great!

~~~
fennecfoxen
> Used it last week with Apple Pay on my Phone, worked great!

Do be aware that if your phone battery runs out you may have to pay a penalty
fare.

~~~
robmcm
Also be aware that the hash for each ApplePay instance of the same card is
unique, so you have to use the same device when tapping out that you did when
tapping in (or all day in order to hit the cap).

It's also worth priming your device (double tap home button from lock screen)
and authenticating before you reach the gate. You don't want to hold up the 50
stressed commuters behind you fiddling with your phone.

~~~
semi-extrinsic
So, realistically, what value does paying with your phone add over an Oyster
or contactless card?

Sure, you might claim that I'm more likely to forget my Oyster than my phone,
but I'm also much less likely to run out of power on the Oyster.

~~~
raverbashing
Probably none

This "contactless phone payment" seems more like a gimmick than anything else

~~~
lathiat
actually it makes total sense for foreign travelers, who can immediately
travel without finding a suitable location to purchase an Oyster card (for
5GBP), worrying about how much balance to put on it (being a tourist, I had no
idea) and then waiting in line for over 30 minutes to return it (and get
whatever was remaining as a refund) when I was done.

I actually had to do all of these things, because the first set of machines I
ran into (and then used to purchase an Oyster card) didn't have signs about
being able to use contactless now.. all of those signs were around the corner
:-)

London is lucky enough to (at least for the underground) allow cash or EFT
fares at the stations, in some hostile cities like Sydney you cannot catch a
bus without a pre-purchased multi rider card which you can only buy from
certain outlets.. you can not pay cash on board. Combining the inefficiencies
of avoiding cash on rides with the global standard of contact less payments
makes total sense to me

~~~
raverbashing
Might be easier for tourists yes, but I just get the Oyster card last time I
was there

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MBCook
It looks like FeliCa is based on/compatible with NFC (on a physical/radio
level).

Is this something Apple could conceivably add into an iOS point release? Or is
the chip the controls the NFC in the iPhone probably hardcoded to what it does
now and not capable of being adapted (like a software radio wood) to a
different protocol?

Even if the phone could do it with a software update, is this one of those
things where that wouldn't be allowed because their implementation probably
wouldn't match the required security specs (Wikipedia seems to say that there
is some special crypto on the cards which they may not want in software).

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dcw303
Finally. It's rather annoying taking out my Pasmo to get through the subway
barriers when I can see Android users going through with a tap.

Also, the article mentions mass transit navigation is coming for Maps. If that
happens I'll get rid of Google Maps, which is almost useless as it now forces
me to log in before doing anything useful.

~~~
darren_
> as it now forces me to log in before doing anything useful.

It's still useful without logging in, searches and directions still work fine,
they just have a big ugly prompt telling you to log-in. Just ignore it. The
main functional things missing are stars, offline, and the personalized
suggestion things that appear when you tap search boxes (which regrettably
includes recent search history, probably the biggest thing missing from the
not-signed-in experience).

(disclaimer etc: I work on google maps for iOS)

~~~
igravious
> (which regrettably includes recent search history, probably the biggest
> thing missing from the not-signed-in experience)

You work on it, why not change that? :)

~~~
NegativeLatency
Ever tried screaming into a deep dark well?

------
TorKlingberg
Japan is great at some things. It's been common since about 2007 to pay for
commuter trains, subway and buses by tapping your phone or contactless card.
Meanwhile here in the UK, buses are still cash only (outside London) and they
grumble if you don't have exact change for £3.70 or something.

~~~
prof_hobart
That may be true in some parts, but not everywhere.

Nottingham, for instance, has had contactless cards for transport for years.

There's an array of confusing different options (some cards will work only on
City buses, some will work on any bus but not the tram, some will charge extra
when you use the tram, but others won't, their ranges cover different parts of
Nottingham etc).

But once you've got your head around that, it works fine.

------
nashashmi
In other news, it will take NYC five years to implement tap and pay
MetroCards.

~~~
kmicklas
The MTA is much more than 5 years behind on just about everything else, and
MetroCards are one of the least annoying things about the subway I think, so
I'm skeptical we'll see it anywhere near that soon.

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perseusprime11
I wish this comes to NYC subways. I also wish NYC upgrades their subways. They
are getting run down by the years and decades.

------
nahtnam
IIRC, Samsung Pay is planning to add support for transit cards. Theoretically
it would be possible to use something like your Clipper card to pay for a BART
ride through your phone.
([http://i.imgur.com/JXdsxcr.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/JXdsxcr.jpg))

------
scurvy
Why not just make an iPhone case that has a carve-out for the payment card?
That way you can use your payment card and not need your phone, too (like
going outdoors, to the beach, etc).

I ask because I've already seen iPhone cases like this in Japan. I use one
with my Clipper card.

~~~
doall
>Why not just make an iPhone case that has a carve-out for the payment card?

I too have seen this kind of product in Japan. The downside is that the case
gets thick, the design is limited, and it doesn't look cool. As a former user
for using Suica app of feature phones, the case product is apparently not
optimal.

IMO users who put their phones in their pockets would gain the most benefit
(mostly men I think). Women, especially in Japan, generally wear clothes that
have no pockets and the phones are inside the handbags, which will have less
benefit. It is not much different taking the card case or a phone from your
handbag.

I have seen a brand handbag that has an inner pocket in the bottom to hold a
Suica card. To use it, you just put the handbag on top of the ticket gate.
This kind of product looks more suited to women in Japan.

~~~
nihonde
one thing I've noticed is that Japanese people have no problem with bulky
phone cases. I personally hate them, but almost everyone here uses the kind
with a flip cover card holder. Also, I saw the handbag you refer to yesterday
and thought it was a clever solution.

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izacus
So does that mean that each city system will have to beg Apple to implement
their system instead of having an API so cities / countries can implement
payments themselves? :(

~~~
superuser2
Chicago accepts plain old Apple Pay. It goes directly to your credit card and
doesn't give a discount for transfers though. It can't, because the
credentials are intentionally not persistent.

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veidr
Ahem...: "FINALLY."

(As an aside, I've spent years with a Pasmo train card (and required shielding
sheet) duct-taped to the the back of my stupid iphone...)

