
Inside the World's Greatest Keyboard  - jseliger
http://www.pcworld.com/printable/article/id,147939/printable.html
======
grandalf
Buyer beware. I used an M for a few years and it got me in the habit of
pounding the keys, which has led to some pretty serious RSI.

Before the M I used to type far more delicately.

Keep in mind that the M was designed so that secretaries who were used to
clunky mechanical typewriters could make the switch to computers. Nostalgia
for the M is as misplaced as wanting a hand crank starter on the grill of your
prius.

~~~
nileshk
I suggest reading "The Mindbody Prescription" by John E Sarno. Here is an
overview of what it talks about: <http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc>
(I know it's a Word doc, but that is the best overview I've seen)

It helped me recover 100% from what I thought was "RSI" and I no longer
believe that typing can cause injury.

I bought a Unicomp Model M a few years after this recover, not for nostalgia,
but to increase my typing speed and accuracy, which it did. The only downside
is that it is loud.

~~~
lutorm
I'm a longterm RSI sufferer, now largely recovered, and I while I agree that
there is certainly something to the theory that stress and reduced blood flow
is part of the problem, it seems to me that he's overstating his case:

"To be perfectly clear: in TMS theory, the cause of pain is not the structural
abnormalities (tendon or muscle tears, tissue inflammation, herniation,
degeneration, decrepit muscles, etc) or behavioral “problems” (poor posture, a
bad ergonomic setup, improper typing habits) typically identified by medical
practitioners. None of them are responsible for the pain – none."

My personal experience readily invalidates this. I can type for a full day on
my Kinesis Advantage practically without a problem these days, but if I sit
with the Macbook for a day, I can certainly feel the strain. Doing that for
2-3 days will bring back quite a lot of discomfort. Why would I all of a
sudden have more unconscious stress just because I moved from working at my
desk to the couch?

~~~
nileshk
That experience doesn't invalidate what he says, in fact its right in line
with it. I suggest reading his book to fully understand it. Here is my take on
it (which probably doesn't explain things as well as the book does):

Your belief is that the Kinesis keyboard causes you no discomfort, but the
Macbook keyboard does. You've conditioned yourself to react this way; and your
subconcious mind is fully aware of what is going on and is orchestrating the
reactions and exploiting your beliefs so that it can cause distractions. The
distractions are to prevent repressed emotions from surfacing. The actual
physical reaction is real (oxygen deprivation to the areas), it's not "all in
your head", but the root cause is psychological. The mind is in control here.

There may be some physical component to it. It may actually be more strenuous
to use the MacBook keyboard than the Kinesis keyboard. Or in my case, slamming
my fingers down aggressively on an arcade-style game controller for an hour
probably could cause some discomfort. But that doesn't mean it will lead to a
long-standing injury or chronic pain. Your subconcious mind will use the
knowledge of what you think causes discomfort.

Of course you should see a doctor to rule out things like multiple sclerosis.
I had been to many different doctors and tried various alternative therapies
as well (such as acupuncture), and tried different ergonomic changes
(including the Kinesis contoured keyboard), all which did not help me. So I
was in a position where I was open to trying anything that could help me, and
this was the only thing that did.

~~~
grandalf
This is totally fascinating. Would you care to share more about your
experience and how you cured yourself?

~~~
nileshk
I have been meaning to finish writing some blog entries that detail the whole
thing. If you're interested here they are in their not-ready-to-be-published
form:

Short version: <http://www.nileshk.com/node/73> Long version:
<http://www.nileshk.com/node/71>

I've been meaning to finish editing these entries for a while, so I will try
to do that sometime soon. If you'd like me to notify you when I've finished
them, you can e-mail me at hackernews /AT/ nileshk.com.

The "long version" doesn't talk much about how I actually cured myself yet,
but really details everything that lead up to it. But really, there wasn't
much to the actually cure. I read the outline that I linked to, and it just
made sense to me. I immediately read The Mindbody Prescription and it was like
it explained everything that I had been experiencing and why it happened the
way it did. After I finished reading it, I immediately just started trying to
go back to normal and doing the things I do without restrictions. I started
repeatedly telling myself "there's nothing physically wrong with me." After a
week my pain was almost gone, and I told my employers that I'm ready to start
working full time again (I was working part-time at that time). A month later
I was completely back to normal, typing without pain and without fear of the
pain returning, playing my musical instruments without pain, and using my
hands and arms without any restrictions.

I did also take a look at the things in my life that could have caused
repressed emotions. Things that had emotionally effected me, but I just wasn't
dealing with. I tried to force myself to face these things by just thinking
about them and trying to "feel" the emotions that they caused. This was a
gradual process over the course of the next months, and is an ongoing thing I
continue to do.

Now the reason this worked for me was because I immediately completely
believed the ideas it presented. In my case things were lining up for me to
come to this realization, I just needed it explained to me the right way (in a
scientific, concrete sort of way that I can make sense of and believe). So
there is this "leap of faith" you have to take with this approach, which makes
it difficult for a lot of people. For me it was easy to take, because it made
sense of everything I had experienced (even some things before the wrist
pain), whereas before I was confused as to why such a thing could happen and
only had useless diagnoses such as "fibromyalgia" or "thoracic outlet
syndrome" from my doctors. For me, there had been lots of hints as to what was
really going on, but no clear explanation until I came across this.

What I'd suggest (assuming you've already seen a neurologist and eliminated
diseases like MS as possibilities) is read this book, and if it doesn't
immediately make sense to you, just keep it in mind and start observing the
patterns of how your pain occurs. Give it another read after a while and see
if it makes sense.

------
nocman
Yes, yes. I've owned several Model M's myself (probably still have one around
here somewhere). They are a _very_ solid keyboard.

They are also loud enough to wake the dead!

Seriously, has anyone else here tried to type on one of those while talking to
someone on the phone (like, when doing tech support)? Anyone else here used
one of these to work on a school assignment, or a work project in the wee
hours of the night--in a house where others are trying to sleep nearby? That's
a recipe for disaster.

I do like the weight of the Model M (it stays put), and I like the feet that
prop up the back of the keyboard to put it at a nice angle. While those
features are nice, I still prefer a keyboard that doesn't scream out my every
keystroke as if I were typing with a nailgun instead of a keyboard. I prefer
my slightly-less ancient keyboard (only about 12 years old). I use an IBM
model KB-8923 (which I believe was manufactured in 1997). It has a very
similar layout to the Model M, except it does have those 3 nasty "Windows"
keys (which I ignore). It is also heavy enough to stay put while I type, and
at the same time is _much_ quieter (without being "mushy", like a lot of
keyboards are -- providing no pushback to the fingers at all). Like the Model
M and many (most?) keyboards, it also has the feet that prop up the back
corners. Fortunately for me, I bought this keyboard at a liquidation store
(there were probably 20 or 30 of them in a stack for $1 to $2 each (in 2001).
I think I bought 4 or 5 of them which I have used with different computers
since then, perhaps giving some away with machines I gave to others. I wish I
had bought the entire stack for that price. I have been that happy with them.
I think one of the ones I bought started being unreliable, but only after much
abuse (cracker/cookie/sandwich/whatever crumbs and probably one too many
coffee/soda/water spills probably did it in). The rest are still in service.

------
jseliger
The major thing missing from this article is any mention of Unicomp, which
makes contemporary versions of the Model M called the "Customizer" and "Space
Saver." I wrote a review of the Customzier here :
[http://jseliger.com/2008/05/07/product-review-unicomp-
custom...](http://jseliger.com/2008/05/07/product-review-unicomp-customizer-
keyboard) , which also explains how to use it with Macs.

~~~
elq
Thanks for the pointer. They sell a keyboard I've wanted for ages, a buckling
spring keyboard with a thinkpad "nipple" mouse -
<http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104wh.html>

~~~
jseliger
Nice. It's always wonderful to find the exact thing one wants. I thought I'd
found the right keyboard with the Matias Tactile Pro Version 1, but the "ghost
key" problem scuppered that idea, and Version 2 was so bad it inspired this
pan: [http://jseliger.com/2007/10/18/product-review-matias-
tactile...](http://jseliger.com/2007/10/18/product-review-matias-tactile-
pro-2) , ultimately leading me to the Customizer.

------
pkulak
I bought an old model M a while back, and I didn't really like it. Too much
travel in the keys for me to really get going fast. As heretic as it sounds,
my favorite keyboard right now is my Apple one that's about a quarter inch
thick. It doesn't make me feel like I'm typing on a typewriter and cleans with
a quick swipe from a damp cloth. Plus, it's tiny and wireless.

~~~
bluefish
Have to agree. I really like the new Apple keyboards. They feel minimalist but
with enough key travel that I know when the button has been fully pressed.

~~~
thenduks
Indeed, if you ask me, Apple has dethroned IBM for the go-to keyboard...
especially for programming, there's nothing that's not perfect about it.

~~~
Elepsis
How about the lack of the insert key?

~~~
there
or page up and down

~~~
thenduks
It has page up and page down. This
([http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/07/imac-
slim-...](http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/07/imac-slim-
keyboard-1.jpg)) is the keyboard I'm referring to. Still, I don't ever use
those, vim supplies plenty of navigation methods that can be used from the
home-row.

------
zacharypinter
A few years ago I earned the wrath of my coworkers when I cleaned up and
started using an old model M that was lying around. Apparently it was quite
loud :)

These days I'm happy with my Kinesis Advantage (seen here
<http://files.getdropbox.com/u/31884/desktop.jpg> ).

~~~
jseliger
Nice keyboard. For $300, though? That seems like a bit much. Still, I might
request a review unit from them and see how it goes.

~~~
lincolnq
$300 is _nothing_ if you type for a living and it can save you from chronic
wrist pain. I've had my Kinesis for a year. I was suffering from a good amount
of pain, especially in my pinkies. It evaporated in about two days once I
started using my Kinesis. Now I only get pain if I switch back to my old
keyboard (it comes back in a few hours) or if I type for 8 hours straight or
with bad posture.

Highly recommended.

------
msluyter
No, this is not a great keyboard. Not even close. It's terribly unergonomic.
When I worked at IBM, I had this keyboard, and it seriously hurt my hands. I
pulled off the keys and purposefully crimped the springs so that they'd be
weaker and it would have a lighter action.

IMHO, most modern non-ergonomic (straight) keyboards are bad for you because
they force wrist deviation (bending). That would include Apple's, and this is
the one area where I really dislike Apple's design principles.

------
sgrove
It seems like there's a simple design spec for a very nice keyboard:

    
    
       - Buckling springs, for that clicky feeling
       - Split, or somehow ergonomically enhanced
       - Columns instead of staggered keys
    
    

Anything else? Any disagreements with the above?

It might be interesting to see if home-designed keyboards could be built using
3d printers and ordered parts. Anyone up for writing a how-to?

------
johnohara
I won't deny that the M was a great keyboard. I also used one for a number of
years. Very reliable. But the idea for the layout did not come from IBM. It
came from DEC. The VT220 keyboard was on desks and in use by the thousands a
year and a half before IBM shipped the M.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT220>

~~~
zandorg
I have an incredible d|i|g|i|t|a|l keyboard someone gave me in 1997, and it
clunkers away incredibly nicely. Same layout as the M.

I cleaned and even repaired it, supergluing the rubber thingies back onto the
membranes. I also had to solder some wires back on.

I'm running it off a PS2/USB adapter for my Linux laptop and I can easily
reach 100 WPM on this.

------
notirk
I'm a contractor working on the new NYC 911 system and the supporting IT
infrastructure. The current system, at the desktop level, is all old IBM AIX
boxes and every single one has one of these keyboards. The monitors, mice, etc
have all been replaced due to wear and tear, but these keyboards have put up
with the abuse of 24/7 constant typing for the last 15-20 years. Pretty
amazing. I wouldn't mind grabbing one or two once they cut over to the new
system.

~~~
joezydeco
Why not just buy a new one from Unicomp with modern USB ports and etc etc?

------
pistoriusp
My dad had a keyboard just like that. Looking at this makes me wish he never
threw it away (I assume that's what he did with it).

I'm currently using an Apple keyboard, one of those thin ones, and I'm
incredibly happy with it.

~~~
aarongough
I hear that! I have one of the same new "thin" aluminium keyboards and I love
it! I find it easier to use than anything else I have tried...

------
aarongough
Fantastic! I love seeing things like this. It's a shame so many of the
products we use these days are so under-built. Having to throw things away a
year after I buy them seems like a sin to me...

~~~
andreyf
Why? I don't use most things for 22 years, so I've found it rather convenient
that laptops hard drives go after 5 years or so, since it's a good reason to
buy a new one.

~~~
yangyang
But how much longer will it be economically viable to build stuff with an
artificially limited lifespan?

~~~
andreyf
Indefinitely, I hope... organisms have a limited lifespan. Why does my stuff
need to last eternity?

~~~
aarongough
Because great design/construction has it's own value? I think Apple computers
prove this pretty well.

Building/owning something that has been constructed with great attention to
detail is an absolute pleasure. As a quick example: There are many custom
knifemakers worldwide making a living off of knive that they hand-make for up
to several thousand dollars per piece. Owning one of their pieces is amazing
because you can be absolutely confident that you'll have to try _very_ hard to
break it.

Making something like this is a labor of love and is definitely it's own
reward.

------
akamaka
Yes, absolutely the best keyboard ever. I'm still using mine to this day, and
it works as well as it did in 1991 when my older brother bought it with his
286.

Nothing I've tried comes close (although I have tried those high end
M-inspired keyboard they make today). There are some disadvantages, like not
having the command key when I VNC into my Mac box, but I can live with that.

I've spilled juice on the keyboard twice, short circuiting the electronics,
and crashing my PC. But after opening it up and drying it off, it was as good
as new.

I have some RSI problems as well, and they're entirely caused by use of the
mouse and other keyboards (especially recent Mac keyboard), but the symptoms
go away quickly when I'm back on the model M.

As long as I can get my hands on a working model, I'll be using one!! (and
screw the sleeping roommates :)

------
InkweaverReview
That looks like a very nice keyboard. I liked the description of the "bucking
spring" design behind the perfectly clicking keys.

Most modern keyboards can't recreate that authentic, high-quality feel.

~~~
jseliger
"Most modern keyboards can't recreate that authentic, high-quality feel."

I would rather say that they can, but not at the $5 – $20 price point that
many if not most modern keyboards sell at. Other gourmet keyboards like the
Filco Majestouch and Das Keyboard go for ~$130. By that metric, used Model Ms
and contemporary Customizers/Spacesavers from Unicomp (at $69: see
<http://www.pckeyboard.com> ) are a bargain.

~~~
InkweaverReview
Yeah, but most keyboards are in the $5 - $20 range. It's the expensive high-
quality keyboards that are in the minority because most people don't see the
value in buying such an high performance keyboard.

I'll have to check out those keyboards you mentioned.

------
bbgun
I bought one of these model M keyboards out of pure nostalgia. It is superbly
built and I love the sound of the keys. However, by today's standards it's an
ergonomic disaster, as it forces you to rotate your wrists to an uncomfortable
degree. And I quickly tired of how much pressure it takes to depress the keys.
My new favorite keyboard in the world is the aluminum beauty that came with my
iMac. Oh well.

------
cpr
No, those keyboards are pikers in both quality and unbelieveable silky-smooth
touch compared to the Microswitch-built Hall-effect keyswitch-based custom
keyboards used at Stanford and MIT, aka The Knight Keyboard.

<http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/Knight.html>

Even the later versions that Symbolics and Sun used were inferior in quality
and feel to these old TK keyboards.

Sigh.

------
astine
I don't understand what the problem with 'dome' keyboards is. I've used the
same standard one for years, and it hasn't failed on me yet. I rarely mistype,
and when I do, it isn't because didn't feel the keypress. Sure, I could
probably break it over my knee, but it's light and if someone had to subject
it to that kind of abuse it would mean they were doing something wrong.

------
harkain
The model M keyboard I'm using right now actually came from the trash, all
that was wrong with it was some ribbon cable being loose (very easy to fix).
The fact that this keyboard is actually older than me just shows how durable
they are.

Also it is pretty loud, I'm used to it, but whenever I'm talking with friends
over voice chat they begin to complain about it.

I recommend it whole-heartedly.

------
jsz0
It's hilarious that today, decades after its release, the Model M (and
keyboards like it) still seem to be the defacto standard for the entertainment
industry to convey characters are typing. Only very recently I've noticed a
shift towards a softer, more realistic, typing sound.

------
Keyframe
Am I the only person in the world that prefers large enter key to the small,
shift-like, key?

------
alexkay
Das Keyboard is a great (albeit a bit expensive) replica of Model-M, it's even
available in a key-less design: <http://www.daskeyboard.com/>

~~~
MrRage
I love my Das Keyboard. I used to get some painful cramps during work
(programming). I tried a couple keyboards that helps somewhat, namely
Microsoft's old-school natural keyboards, and also the happy hacker keyboard,
but I'd still get wrist cramping if I typed long enough. Haven't had any
issues at all with Das Keyboard.

The only drawback is that now it feels strange to type on keyboards without
mechanical switches.

