
Immigration Crackdown on Digital Nomads in Chiang Mai, Thailand - cbovis
http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-crackdown-in.html
======
cageface
_They ever showed the officers letters saying that they were operation a
coworking space which is similar to an internet cafe, and that no one here is
working for a Thai company or making Thai wages, meaning they are not taking
Thai jobs or working illegally._

Unfortunately this is not how Thai law views this kind of thing. If you're
earning money in Thailand then you need all the right permits and paperwork.
It doesn't matter if you're not working for a Thai company or doing business
in Thailand. They've let this kind of thing slide for a long time but the new
junta is cracking down hard on all kinds of visa violations.

Those of us in Vietnam and Cambodia are expecting an influx of Thai expat
refugees.

~~~
guard-of-terra
That's a stupid thing to do. I know from podcasts that there are Russian
companies who let their Russian developers stay in Thailand on a business
visa, developing their product for Russian audience.

What does Thailand gains by scaring those people? After all they spend a lot
of their wage money there. What's the downside?

~~~
riffraff
thinking as a thai junta member: if you want to stay here, and work here,
please be kind enough as to pay 40% of your wage in taxes rather than spend 5%
on fried rice.

~~~
Mikushi
But that's the thing, it's 2014, it's not working there, it's working on the
internet, which is everywhere. Laws need to change to accommodate
telecommuting workers, no way I would pay my taxes twice.

~~~
vidarh
It's not where you work that governments tends to ultimately be concerned
about, but whether or not you are consuming local government services, since
that's what the taxes are meant to pay for.

As a short term tourist, you're a valuable resource. As a long term resident,
you may very quickly become a net drain if you pay your tax somewhere else.

And for most people, if they live and work in Thailand most of the time, they
will either not pay tax in their home country, or will pay tax proportional to
the amount of time they live there, on the expectation that someone who is
resident outside the country most of the time will not expend much local
resources.

Laws have dealt with this kind of scenario for a _very long time_ since it's
been an issue in border areas pretty much "forever" that people try all kinds
of creative methods to cut their tax costs. There's nothing particularly new
here with the internet other than magnitude.

The biggest notable exception that can cause expensive double taxation is the
US, since the IRS likes to get their hands on US citizens income regardless
where they live, but even in that case it's ameliorated substantially for most
countries via double taxation treaties.

~~~
jaimeyap
This logic is flawed. When does a tourist cross from being profitable to being
a drain?

The tax argument only holds water if your income is earned _in_ the country
you are living in. That money came from a system that is supported by
government and shared infrastructure and services. So yes, there is a strong
legal and economic argument saying _if you earn money from Thailand you should
pay taxes in Thailand_. The key here being earning money in/from Thailand.

But if you are visiting Thailand, but earning money in the US and paying taxes
in the US, it's pretty difficult to say that you are a net drain.

You absolutely are equivalent economically to a tourist as far as your impact
on the economy is concerned. As a non-local citizen, you won't have access to
state health care (if it's provided) or anything else tax paying citizens have
access to. And your absence from the country would be a net negative value
since you will be paying $0 into the local economy instead of room and board,
internet connectivity, and general consumption, which all can be taxed with a
VAT.

Edit: Also, I promise I'm not trying to be an internet jerk :). But I'm not
sure what you mean by laws have had to deal with this exact scenario for a
long time.

They haven't.

Generally speaking, the common case is for people to evade taxes by leaving
where you earn money and claiming to be a citizen of some other country with
more lenient tax laws. Which is _the total inverse_ of this scenario.

------
cbovis
What initially seemed like an issue turned out to be a potential win for
digital nomads (at least in Thailand).

"Although one of the people detained is extremely worried and does not want
her name associated at all with todays events, in the long run, I believe this
is a win for location independent entrepreneurs. After checking my passport
and seeing that I'm on a valid tourist visa and haven't overstayed, and that I
have no blacklist or warrants internationally, I was free to go.

I even hung out at immigration a tiny bit longer and got my 30 day extension
while I was there. The owners of PunSpace were also nice enough to give us all
another month for free for the trouble."

~~~
ashconnor
Exactly.

It does indeed look like Chiang Mai will not enforce laws prohibiting digital
nomads from working.

If anyone wants to know more about Thai immigration law in regards to Digital
Nomads:

[http://ashleyconnor.co.uk/blog/2014/09/07/the-digital-
nomad-...](http://ashleyconnor.co.uk/blog/2014/09/07/the-digital-nomad-and-
immigration-law/)

~~~
corv
According to the Alien Working Act of 2008 quoted in the article even using a
washing machine would be considered work by Thai Law:

    
    
        “work” means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefit;

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knotty66
I personally wouldn't work from Punspace or anywhere similar in Thailand until
the laws are clarified. It's too risky. Even when not under military rule, the
Thai state, police and immigration change laws - or their interpretation of
them - on a whim.

One day the laws will change without notice or they'll come looking for tea-
money and all the rich farang workers (on tourist visas) herded together in
somewhere like Punspace will be like shooting fish in a barrel for them. It
won't matter that the work is being done for foreign companies. The digital-
nomad type aren't the priority of Thailands tourist board. They typically
spend very little compared to the rich Chinese and Japanese tourist they try
to attract.

I'd rather do any work from my hotel room or condo or from somewhere like
wawee coffee where you would have plausible deniability than a designated 'co-
workers space' \- where the only reason you would be there is to work.

------
latch
Although this appears to have been a misunderstanding, the government has
warned that it would stop visa-runs [1]. So it's possible the people here
won't be able to get a new tourist visa for some time.

[1]
[http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/investigation/423791/coming-...](http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/investigation/423791/coming-
to-the-end-of-the-run)

~~~
apatters
The government has been applying more scrutiny to foreigners who repeatedly
leave and re-enter on 30 day visa exemptions. Actual visas (tourist or
otherwise) have not been affected by this (though some have had other, minor
changes).

Immigration provides Thai consulates with guidelines for how to assess visa
applications, but each consulate's process is different. In the case of
acquiring a tourist visa from the Thai consulate in Vientiane, Laos (one of
the looser ones where a lot of visa runners go), they tend not to ask many
questions until you've acquired at least three back-to-back tourist visas.
Considering that one tourist visa can be extended to provide around 90 days in
the Kingdom, that's a lot of time in Thailand!

For the digital nomad crowd, 9 months in Thailand is still pretty easy to do
with a visa run to Laos every 90 days. People are doing it every day and I
haven't heard of anyone getting knocked back as long as they have their
paperwork in order and pay their visa fees.

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jagtesh
I'm not surprised at all.

In Canada, nobody is allowed to work on a Visitor Permit (Tourist Visa). Here,
the definition of work is earning money in any way. In fact, they take it a
step further: you can't even volunteer for a job that others get paid for! A
Work Permit is required (getting which is a lengthy and tedious process
without any guarantees whatsoever).

US too is similar in this regard, although many companies misuse the B1/B2
business visa for work. Though legally speaking, it's not allowed.

------
tomp
TL;DR: Some people are idiots and don't carry passports with them AT ALL TIMES
when travelling abroad.

AFAIK, having a legal identification document at all times is a legal
requirement even for citizens in the EU, or at least in Slovenia.

~~~
gioele
> AFAIK, having a legal identification document at all times is a legal
> requirement even for citizens in the EU, or at least in Slovenia.

Nowhere in EU countries there a requirement for their citizens to _carry_ a
legal ID. Some may require you to _possess_ at least a valid one (at home
maybe) and all of them require that you are _able to be identified_ by police
officers (this means you accept to go to a police station to check your
identity).

~~~
corford
I'm fairly certain it's a requirement in France.

~~~
a3_nm
Not that I know of. At least, for French citizens, within the scope of
identity checks ("contrôle d'identité"), you need to be able to prove your
identity but there is no required list of established means to do so (and some
are not even documents, e.g., appeal to a witness): [http://vosdroits.service-
public.fr/particuliers/F1036.xhtml#...](http://vosdroits.service-
public.fr/particuliers/F1036.xhtml#N10101)

The relevant article of the penal procedure code ("Code de procédure pénale"),
78-2, is especially broad: "by any mean" ("par tout moyen").

To my knowledge, the French state does not even require that a French citizen
even requests or obtains an identity card or a passport (although having some
ID document may be useful in practice).

~~~
corford
From living in France, I always had the impression it was mandatory. All of my
French friends thought it was bizarre that I would go out without my UK
passport on me as they always kept their ID card with them at all times. My
girlfriend's (whose French) parents never drive anywhere without ID on them
(in addition to their driving license) and used to have a go at me for not
doing the same.

All anecdotal though and maybe you're right that the letter of the law does
not require it. The UK certainly doesn't.

I never had an encounter with the gendarmes in the 5 years I lived there so I
never found out first hand.

Edit: looks like you're right. This article does a nice job of breaking it
down: [http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/2011/12/26/fouilles-controles-
did...](http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/2011/12/26/fouilles-controles-didentite-
amendes-10-choses-savoir-227693)

~~~
a3_nm
What I said applies to French citizens, not foreigners. For foreigners the
situation is less clear, in some cases you need to be able to show your
passport and visa [http://vosdroits.service-
public.fr/particuliers/F31208.xhtml](http://vosdroits.service-
public.fr/particuliers/F31208.xhtml) \-- if you are within the scope of a visa
exemption I would imagine that you would need to justify it by producing a
passport of the correct nationality and supporting documents if any.

(Personally, I always keep my passport with me when travelling abroad.)

In France I always have my ID with me but I know friends who don't (e.g., did
not bother replacing a lost ID). Having lived 24 years in France I have never
been asked to produce ID by the police or gendarmes. (That said, I am white,
not often involved in demonstrations and such, etc.; other people's
experiences may vary. :-/)

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archagon
The title is misleading. There was no crackdown on digital nomads. It was a
misunderstanding.

~~~
ricardonunez
The title was not misleading when he created the post. The update ended up
clarifying the situation later.

------
clamprecht
UPDATES From the article:

Update: The last of us volunteered to come to immigration on our own. We drove
there unescorted. Turns out they thought we were employees of Punspace which
is untrue. We're all still here but good news so far is that they aren't
targeting digital nomads.

Update: At Thai immigration near the airport, everyone got interviewed but
were treated extremely kindly. It ended up taking a few hours and felt like a
big waste of time, but nothing bad actually happened. The owners of PunSpace
were even nice enough to bring us lunch. - See more at:
[http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-
cra...](http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-crackdown-
in.html#sthash.EnYX5xno.dpuf)

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rdlecler1
It seems that they should just creste a nomad visa. Charge 3% income tax when
people are being payed by an out of country entity.

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redgetan
Wonder if this is just a simple case of misinterpretation.

Nomads talking to person1: We work at PunSpace, you should check it out!

person1: Cool! So you guys must have work visas then?

Nomads: No, you don't need a visa to work there :)

person1: Oh really! That's awesome.

Then someone else overheard and thought Nomads are actually working for
PunSpace company.

------
bertil
I'm assuming the wage disparity between digital nomad and local thai would be
wide and offensive to the immigration officers — but that would really help
explain why anyone would want to do that. It also shows the importance of
having well-informed civil servants.

~~~
peteretep

         > I'm assuming the wage disparity between digital nomad
         > and local thai would be wide and offensive to the 
         > immigration officers
    

The standard Thai response to foreigners having lots of money is not offence,
it's opportunity.

~~~
vidarh
Indeed it's usually wealthy countries that tends to have the strictest
immigration laws. Many poorer countries will even let you buy full residency
for a near pittance by western standards.

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godzilla82
But don't all countries have laws like that? If you are paid in country x, you
have to have a work visa for x and have to pay taxes on it. In some countries,
you pay taxes on the money you make abroad as well, even if you don't ever
intend to bring the money. For example, on an L visa in US, I was paid salary
in my home country and an allowance in US. At home I got taxed on just the
salary, but in US I had to pay taxes for the salary I got back home as well.

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joshdance
The title is in-accurate and should be changed to "Digital Nomads caught in
mistaken police raid". They are not cracking down.

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impe83
yep the title its a bit misleading, makes you think that you guys where doing
something illegal lol, but it was just an ordinary check, thats all

