
AirPods Pro owners complain of worse noise cancellation after firmware updates - Borlands
https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/17/21069953/apple-airpods-pro-noise-cancellation-problems-firmware-2b588-2c54
======
floatingatoll
Anecdote:

Before the firmware update, they were a bit pressure-heavy and would create
the "stuffed ears" feeling that I'm familiar with from Bose nausea-inducing
headphones.

A little while ago, they stopped doing that, which was really nice, but I
didn't quite notice and they continue to cancel noise to the degree they
always did.

EDIT2: I noticed a couple weeks ago that noise was leaking into my AirPods, so
I re-did the ear fit test and this time it said they weren’t a good fit. I
went one size up and now it said they were, and honestly now it’s better than
it was on old firmware when I first got them. I bet that’s about when the
firmware update happened! Maybe the noise canceling changed slightly because
the tip fit algorithm changed slightly.

EDIT: "Stuffed ears" notes for a bunch, since I guess I'm "lucky" to be
sensitive to this:

AirPods Pro: minimal but present until it was gone w/ update

Beats Studio Pro 3: not present since purchase ~2-3 years ago

Bose QC15: not present since purchase 10-15 years ago

Bose modern (past five years): significant presence, did not have a chance to
test differing levels of cancellation

~~~
badwolf
I've definitely noticed a difference, in that I can hear the hum of my desktop
computer, where it was almost completely inaudible previously. Perhaps Apple
could introduce tuning/options so folks can set their desired level of noise-
cancellation?

~~~
ljm
Is this not also maybe some weirdness with ANC? I have a solid pair of active
noise cancelling cans (they're a hybrid in-ear/over the head setup) and they
they're definitely inconsistent in what they filter out.

At home I could whistle and click my fingers and it would all be filtered, I
was completely separated from body and mind as far as hearing went. As soon as
I got on the tube, things started leaking through.

(I don't want to advertise, I just bought these cans on a trial/subscription
basis, so I could feel them out for a month or so in the wild with minimal
risk.)

------
blakesterz
I got a pair of this for Christmas and just recently put them in my ears for
the first time having no idea they had noise cancellation built in. For a
second I thought I broke my ears because everything was dead silent! I'm
surprised how well the noise cancellation works, way better than the ancient
Sony headphones I had.

Is there an objective way to measure this so someone would know it's getting
worse? Seems like it would be really subjective if not.

~~~
the_pwner224
You can measure the dB of noise reduction on a headphone test bench.

Under the Isolation section here they have leakage (sound spilling out to
others) and isolation (noise canceling). Keep in mind that dB is nonlinear,
and the test results depend a lot on how well the testers fit the headphones
on the head - so I would only consider these to be approximations within 1-3
dB of the real value.

[https://www.rtings.com/headphones/tools/compare](https://www.rtings.com/headphones/tools/compare)

Rtings hasn't (yet) done a pre/post update comparison for the AirPods but you
could use the same methodology.

The HyperX Cloud II are a good (isolation/leakage-wise) set of 'normal' over-
ear headphones which you can compare the numbers to if you've never used ANC
and are curious. And the Sony WH-1000XM3 / Bose 700 are the leading noises
canceling over-ear headphones.

~~~
hashhar
The Sony XM3s are an awesome piece of hardware. The noise cancellation is top
notch, the ear cups are the most comfortable and large enough to not put too
much pressure (specially for folks like me who wear specs) and are extremely
lightweight with ample cushioning.

Best 25k INR (was around 30% of my monthly salary == monthly rent) I ever
spent.

~~~
bori5
Could only dream to have rent that is 500$! ;)

~~~
hashhar
But that rent is 30% of my monthly salary. Between the rent, expenses,
investments and credit card bills, I can't save more than $150 per month.

And that rent is for a single room in a 4 room apartment. :(

The rent for the entire apartment equals my monthly salary.

~~~
balladeer
Bombay or somewhere posher in BLR?

~~~
hashhar
Gurgaon.

------
fauria
There seems to be something going on related to firmware updates on noise
cancelling headphones.

I can think of:

* October 2017 - Bose QC35. I don't know much about this one. [1]

* June 2019 - Bose QC35II: Reported loss of NC effect after updating to version 4.5.2 [2](211 pages so far). Some review sites confirm it [3][4].

* January 2019 - Sony WH-1000XM3: Reported decreased performance in NC after updating to 4.1.1. [4]

There are many theories around, such as planned obsolescence, patent
infringements, changes to accommodate voice assistants or people getting used
to NC over time.

Any opinions?

[1] [https://community.bose.com/t5/Headphones-
Archive/QC35-noise-...](https://community.bose.com/t5/Headphones-
Archive/QC35-noise-cancellation-not-working/td-p/32783)

[2] [https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-
Headphones/Bose-...](https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-
Headphones/Bose-QC-35-ii-firmware-4-5-2/td-p/213820)

[3]
[https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/bose/quietcomfort-...](https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/bose/quietcomfort-35-ii-
qc35-ii-wireless-2018#comparison_2089)

[4]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyC9QStmzcA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyC9QStmzcA)

[5] [https://community.sony.co.uk/t5/portable-audio/sony-
wh-1000x...](https://community.sony.co.uk/t5/portable-audio/sony-
wh-1000xm3-v4-1-1-firmware-failure/td-p/2564068)

~~~
novok
I think they all privately found they cause hearing damage. Since NC is
sending out a cancelling wave to your ears doesn't mean they are actually
reducing the total air pressure force inside your ears itself. To avoid future
liability they pushed silent firmware updates that decrease the total sound
pressure in the ear generated by the NC function while not telling anyone to
avoid automatic future guilty verdicts.

~~~
nomel
Do you have a reference for this? I can't find anything that supports it (only
the opposite!), and, intuitively, it doesn't make much sense.

My ear drum, and the hair cells behind it, do exactly one thing: respond to
changes in air pressure. If the ANC isn't reducing air pressure forces, then
why do I hear so little? The only way to hear less is to have less changing
forces to disturbed them, is it not?

I assume the good ones designed with lowpass and aliasing filters to block out
anything high frequency, but inaudible, that might damage hearing. These are
absolutely not air tight, so there's nothing static, and the lack of bone-
conduction sounds from walking makes me think it's keeping lower frequency
pressure very well under control.

~~~
novok
ANC is not actually cancelling out the second sound wave, it's exploiting an
attribute of human hearing that two simultaneous out of phase sound waves are
_perceived_ as silence AFAIK. It doesn't mean that sound pressure goes away,
and hearing damage can come from sound pressure that is too high for the hairs
in your ear and damages those hairs as a result (ex: a lot of loud sound) is
my hypothesis.

When I asked an audiologist if there has been research about ANC causing
hearing damage, he said that it would be hard to get a grant structure that
would work with it, since nobody is making money from it, and there hasn't
been.

In tinitus, the frequency that people hear is around 4000hz, because that is
where the first major bend in the cochlea is. It means that the loud sound
that you hear doesn't necessarily have to be a specific frequency to damage
hearing in that frequency either.

~~~
karl-j
Two simultaneous out of phase sound waves do cancel each other out, there's
not some 'silent sound pressure' left.

~~~
nomel
I think his idea is that some non planar wave within the ear would mean that
the wavefronts would not be exactly matched for all reflection paths to and
within the cochlea. This would mean the phase would not remain as they travel
through the cochlea and could construct at some point around the hair cells.

But, considering the wavelength of 20kHz is 1cm and the ear canal is about
0.7, I can't imagine there's much room for anything but a nice planar wave
heading down the canal, let alone within the cochlea.

------
damon_c
Yesterday I was walking in downtown Los Angeles while donning AirPods Pro and
talking on the phone and I remarked to the person I was talking to that it
felt like I was walking by myself in a quiet room because of how strangely
quiet it was.

I'm surprised that upon checking, I seem to have the accused firmware. It's
not that bad.

~~~
ghaff
OT but I really have trouble with the idea of walking around cities with noise
canceling earpods in. I'm even am a bit uncomfortable walking on a forest path
with regular earbuds--and I mostly don't do it.

I guess I just grew up without such things and it feels a bit isolating.

~~~
lukifer
I think the real feature is that you're in full control: the Transparency
option is basically the opposite of noise-cancelling, giving you full
operational awareness in a noisy environment without taking the headphones
out. It's even trivial to switch between them (pinch and hold the stem).

The real use for noise-cancelling isn't city-walking, but airplanes, crowded
coffee shops, etc. :)

~~~
lilyball
Transparency mode is great. That's what I normally use, and then only switch
to quiet mode when I'm in a particularly noisy environment such as on the
subway.

------
jonplackett
Haven’t noticed any difference. They’re still my absolute favourite bit of
technology I’ve bought in ages, despite their ridiculous price tag.

You’re not buying headphones. You’re buying control of what goes in (or not)
of your ears ALL DAY LONG.

~~~
caconym_
Serious question from somebody who actually does wear noise-cancelling
headphones all day: how do you deal with battery life? Isn't it like 4 hours
or something in that range?

~~~
nolok
Not using apple's, but my bose's QC 20 have about 15 hours of battery life.
Their fully bluetooth model has about 8-10 hours. It doesn't have the "cool"
factor of having two separate ear-pieces without wire between them, but it can
handle a full day of work or a europe -> asia flight without having to
recharge and that's more important to me.

~~~
xnyan
A perspective from for whom no cable is life changing.

I have very sensitive ears and I always found the cable getting caught on
something, even a minimal one just behind the head, pulling down on my ears
which is a very unpleasant experience for me.

I can listen to an audiobook as I’m falling asleep with just one earbud in and
no cables in my face. Being able to use just one at a time without having to
tuck a cable into my shirt or down my collar which always comes out is
fantastic in general.

I’m very active and being able to have two little pieces of plastic that I can
tuck into a case with no cable in my pocket is very nice when my headphones go
in and out of my pocket all day. Even the minimal wire on wire conneted
bluetooth buds means careful wrap and store or risk cable strain from tangling
in my pocket w/ my wallet keys phone etc.

I personally find connected wireless headphones to be the worst of all worlds,
you still have most of the problems that come with a cable wrapped around your
head brings and with all the downsides of wireless.

~~~
nolok
And you're absolutely right to pick what works best for you

For me battery life is a much more important and impactful factor

I use them all day long but obviously throughout the day at times I need to
have them out of my ears to have conversations, during which I might even move
from a room to another, and the ability to just have them dangle around my
neck and have it there immediately when done is a superior experience

I might be lucky but I literally never have had the wire between two earpiece
suffer cable strain, then again all my BT earpieces have been higher quality
models with a good build quality

Also and like some of the things you listed it is purely personnal preference
but the linking cable between the two pieces makes it feel more stable and
safe to me

------
chris_wot
It seems to me that Apple’s software is steadily regressing. One of my
favourite apps is iBooks, but I cannot use it as it reloads for a good 10-15
minutes at times, or refreshes the screen here or four times unnecessarily. I
am going to move to Kindle because of it.

------
ilyanep
Since we're on the topic of the Airpods noise cancellation, does anyone know
why Apple doesn't let you enable noise cancelling with only one Airpod in? Is
it just that they're worried about the pressure imbalance causing discomfort?

~~~
pieterk
You can enable this through the Accessibility settings. It makes sense to be
the default but I’m glad they made this configurable.

~~~
ilyanep
Oo that's very good to know, thank you! I give it a 50% chance I try it out
and hate it but very glad it's an option.

------
40acres
Is the noise cancelling better on AirPods than QC35s?

~~~
j-conn
In my experience, absolutely not. I returned my pair since the noise
cancelation was worse than the passive blocking of $30 true wireless earbuds
from amazon. Ended up settling on the jabra elite 75t— also just passive
blocking. Still not as good as qc35s for work but better than the AirPods pro
along with better sound quality.

------
jtokoph
The past few days I keep thinking the noise cancellation is off and try to
turn it on, only to find it is on. It’s almost as if turning on noise
cancelling also turns on transparency mode. I hear the outside noise clearly,
just at a different pitch or something.

------
ogre_codes
I'm not sure why this is being posted now since Apple pulled the update a
couple days ago.

~~~
morpheuskafka
I just updated my phone to iOS 13.3 yesterday (was switching from unc0ver 12.4
semi-untethered jailbreak to checkra1n semi-tethered jailbreak) and my AirPods
upgraded to this firmware.

------
utf_8x
Isn't this just like when people though the QC35s from Bose did this because
everyone started saying they did even though there was no measurable
difference?

------
lenova
Anyone have any experience with cheaper Anker noise cancelling earbuds? I'm
experiencing the slight nausea mentioned above with my Bose QC20s and am
looking for an alternative, but not at the Airpod price point.

~~~
prostheticvamp
Pretty positive. Got the soundcore liberty neo, used for the gym, not an
audiophile. Sound is clear, ear fit is reasonably reliable.

------
jmull
From my perspective, I think it works a little better.

There's less of an "ears are plugged" sensation but everything remains quiet
(it's actually a little eerie to me when I first turn it on).

------
b0tch7
Slightly off topic but any Android users here have the Airpods Pro? What's
your experience been? Fwiw, I have a Pixel 3

~~~
ganstyles
I use them with Android exclusively for regular use. They work great, Pixel 3
here. Occasionally only one connects and I either have to turn Bluetooth on
and off again, or put Airpods back and take them out. But only occasionally
and usually if the phone is in my back pocket or something.

But the iPhone experience is significantly better. They connect via their
special chip so it's more reliable afaik, you get to easily check battery
status, and the tip fit test seems to only be available on iPhone. I use my
partners iPhone to set it up with the fit test and to occasionally check
firmware. But I charge them regularly and have never had a need to check
battery life tbh, thorough there is at least one Android app that will check
battery life, I didn't think it was that great.

Overall with the Pixel 3 they're still the best noise cancelling and general
experience Bluetooth headphones I've ever used.

~~~
qqii
What was your experience updating the firmware?

------
totalZero
This exact same thing happened to my Bose QC35 headphones.

------
tedunangst
Verge's primary source is a year old thread about the original airpods?

~~~
ktta
That thread is pretty active. And when you have an 'article' about a few
'owners complaining', discussion forum post sounds like an appropriate source.

~~~
tedunangst
I clicked it, saw posts from last March, scrolled down, still March, gave up.
Oh well.

------
Sephr
Are you able to update the AirPods Pro firmware through any Apple laptops?

------
midnitewarrior
Just buy the AirPod Pro 2 next Fall

------
bariswheel
Thanks for the heads up. No firmware updates for a while then.

------
jammygit
Anecdote: after iOS 13, my microphone started not-working intermittently. It
still doesn’t work consistently

~~~
ThePowerOfFuet
Get them replaced under warranty.

------
gesman
Bose can't get over inflicting the annoying beeps or voice prompts on
customers when earphones connect or disconnect from source.

It's impossible to turn this stupidity off. If you turn off voice prompts, it
get replaced by beeps. And vice versa. If you have few devices - earphones
either beeps or talks to you non stop.

