
My father was IBM’s first black software engineer - tosh
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-09-20/ibm-nazi-germany-tech-racism-father
======
jmpman
I used to work at IBM and a new black engineer joined around the time I joined
the team. We both got stuck with the grunt work and bonded over late night
conference room video game projector sessions, while running regression tests.
I’ve gone on to a relatively successful career outside of IBM, but he was hit
in a layoff, with his job sent overseas. Instead of continuing in tech, he
moved home, and joined his fathers company as an accountant. I keep in touch
and continue encouraging him to get back in tech, trying to hire him each time
I have a position open on my team, but I’m finding that he hasn’t kept his
skills up to date. I’d bend every rule to hire him, not because he’s black,
but because he’s my friend. I just can’t get him past the loop.

Later in my career, I used to travel to St Louis to meet with large customers.
In a city with demographics of 47% black, I’d expect to be working with a
sizable number of African Americans. Out of the 100 engineers I worked with,
half were white and the other half were Asian. The only black employees I met
were the security guards.

Similar scenario in Atlanta. Although I did work with a number of Black
engineers, their accent indicated a birth place of the Caribbean or Africa.

It feels like the H1B system has become a barrier to entry for African
Americans born in the US. Something should be done to make US students more
attractive to employers than H1B. I don’t want a quota system, just a tax on
H1Bs which make companies take a hard look at why they’re not hiring US
citizens. The article indicates there’s not a pipeline problem. Something else
is amiss.

~~~
Consultant32452
Not just African Americans. In my experience Hispanics are just as non-
existent in tech, and they are a larger percentage of the population than AAs.

~~~
umvi
My guess is that it is a cultural thing. Black/Hispanic parents don't push
their kids toward tech careers. Similar to how black/hispanic parents (in
America) don't push their kids to learn to swim. The reason their cultures are
this way are complex and span generations.

Indian parents, on the other hand, aggressively push their kids into tech.
Heck, a lot of my Indian co-workers don't even like programming but their
parents basically forced them into it.

~~~
GaryNumanVevo
The stereotype that African American's can't swim isn't a failing on the
parent's part. They were actively banned from public swimming pools,
especially in the southern US. If your parents didn't grow up swimming,
they're less likely to take you. Even today Black people in the south face
discrimination at public / private pools.

~~~
umvi
It's not so much a stereotype as it is a statistical reality. And I never said
it was a personal failing, I alluded that the reasons they don't push their
kids to swim are complex.

> If your parents didn't grow up swimming, they're less likely to take you.

Furthermore, if your parents can't swim, they may harbor fear of the water or
drowning and seek to "protect" their children by actively avoiding pools or
swim lessons, and thus the cycle will continue for many generations.

------
tdurden
> Somehow, he managed to obtain copies of the IBM entrance examination
> questions and answers, which he surreptitiously shared with promising young
> black job applicants. He coached them on passing the exam and succeeding in
> their interviews. Many were subsequently hired.

I guess this is considered ok?

~~~
kamaal
If leet code and your dozen other interview training companies today are ok,
this is just perfectly fine.

------
iconjack
Every tech company I've ever had anything to do with (which includes IBM) has
bent over backwards to hire minority engineers. This ridiculous narrative that
the tech world is prejudiced against black people is ridiculous and
unproductive. It needs to end. There, I said it.

~~~
l0b0
Every tech company I've ever had anything to do with _claims_ to encourage
minorities. But the numbers clearly tell a different story. It would be easy
to excuse it all as cultural fit, but that doesn't hold up when there are many
more male white _foreigners_ (like myself in several cases) than local women
or minorities.

------
bluedino
I was expecting stories from his father, or about his father.

Instead, the author talks about IBM's "support" of Nazi Germany and ends with
statistics on the low amount of African-Americans employed in the tech
industry.

 _Yet the percentage of blacks and non-Asian minorities in high-tech
professions consistently remains under 2%. For minority women, the numbers are
even more dismal. Recent studies conclude this is not a “pipeline” problem —
qualified candidates can be found._

~~~
tasogare
> and non-Asian minorities

Ah, the classical trick of excluding data points that don't fit the narrative.
It's far more convenient to blame the Bad White Man for everything than to ask
the real questions.

~~~
rat87
racism is a major problem and a how to fight racism in hiring as well as
society is a real question.

Asian minorities also suffer from racism but it doesn't necessarily work the
same way or have the same stereotypes attached

~~~
77697throw
Exactly. Talk about affirmative action in academics, and most people will
agree it’s something to consider.

Talk about affirmative action in sports, and people will laugh.

------
sgustard
Here's a link to the memoir he wrote about his father:

[https://www.harpercollins.com/9780062890566/think-
black/](https://www.harpercollins.com/9780062890566/think-black/)

------
huxflux
"Somehow, he managed to obtain copies of the IBM entrance examination
questions and answers" \- Not okey!

------
kls
Tangentially related to the article but I think my story is a good reality
check for myself and others about racism. Now I am one of those individuals
that ascribe every malty or advantage to racism but I absolutely agree that in
form it still exists and sometimes those perpetuating it do not even know they
are doing it. Anyways on to my story and on to one of the absolute best things
that ever happened to me in my life.

About 15 years ago I was at a cross roads, I have had a great career as a good
developer that has made a name for himself. I joined a startup, planned a
strategy and we had a very successful exit. I went on to join one of our
suppliers who was having serious technical challenges, as the CTO I righted
the company (they where in no trouble but severely missing their mark as far
as potential goes due to technical limitations). After fixing this orgs tech
problems we where bought out by the largest global travel conglomerate.

After this, my name proceeded me in the Orlando technical market and it is
here were we get to the meat of the story (TLDR start reading here). Anyways,
we sold, and I was basically in a figure head position, no real
responsibilities and no real future other than collecting a pay check for past
efforts. It was not what I wanted to do so I started applying for positions.
One such was with a 14 billion a year company that was very successful in
their market, but had technical problems limiting their growth. I am being
intentionally vague on the details of this company as I do not want to
identify the CEO or the organization.

So I interview and I nail it, I interview with the white VP's, the white board
of directors and the black CEO. I nailed it so hard that the board offers me
the job and package before talking to the CEO. I mean on the spot in the
interview, I am asked by the board what kind of package do we need to put
together to get you on-board.

So we talk, we put together a package and I leave thinking I am starting a new
gig. The hiring consultant (similar to a recruiter but works with execs) calls
the next day to tell me congratulations. Only to call me the nest day to tell
me there is a huge row between the board and the CEO and that I would be best
to wait it out.

I find out that this row is due to the fact that the CEO and founder is
adamant about hiring his friend who has been the CTO of a small college. In
his role he has never managed custom software development (which they did a
lot of) and was basically a glorified network administrator. This gentleman
was black.

I was thus offered a consultancy gig by the board to bring this CTO up to
speed. Which I naturally declined.

While most would think this is a story of sour grapes, it is one of the best
events that has happened to me in my life. As a white man I have never
experienced another individual preferred over me solely because that person
identified with the other individual. Even if that persons qualifications are
inferior to my own. It opened my eyes and I am grateful to that CEO for it.

I actually remained in contact with said CEO and we later became good friends.
One night at dinner, I point blanked asked him about it and this is what he
told me. He said Kenton, you have a name in this community with you sale of
companies to HRN and to TUI, you have no problem opening doors, you where
absolutely the best candidate that walked thru our door. That being said, had
someone of my same race had not choose me over the more qualified candidate I
would not be where I am today, He said you see we don't get the opportunities
to advance like you naturally do and if we don't help each other get those
opportunities they never manifest.

He told me he was the one that suggested the package of me coming in as a
consultant to mentor the new CTO as he wanted to provide the same opportunity
that he had been provided.

I was floored, and pretty much felt like a dickhead for asking the question.
My only response was, had I known. To which he replied well I could not
exactly level with you given the fact that we where not friends at the time.

I went on to mentor his CTO and they where hugely successful exiting to a
fortune 5 company. In the end it was a happy ending, and I learned a few
things about humanity and racism. It was one of the greatest learning
experiences I have ever had.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
>'That being said, had someone of my same race had not choose me over the more
qualified candidate I would not be where I am today', //

That's clearly unfair. The insinuation is that only non-black people can
achieve the best qualifications, which seems exceedingly offensive.

What was your intended take-away -- surely not "nepotism/racism are fine if
you're black [in USA]"?

~~~
kls
I believe the insinuation per the CEO was that even if they where equally
qualified that the overwhelming representation of white candidates would
cancel out their chance. He is not a bad man, he is a caring and very
compassionate man, who believed he was doing good for a fellow human. It was
as eye opening to him, when we talked about it and he came to the realization
that he was guilty of the same discrimination that he had endured. It's so
subtle that it can easily slip by.

My take away was that it really, butt hurts you bad when it happens to you and
we as white people rarely experience said butt hurt. It puts things into
perspective and I am thankful for that perspective.

Point being, I don't think it was fair and I am not justifying his actions,
but it helps me relate to the feeling that black Americans feel. A little
empathy goes a long way and the perspective taught me empathy without
pandering.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
>if they where equally qualified that the overwhelming representation of white
candidates would cancel out their chance //

I don't think you understand probability, they would each have equal chance.
Isn't that the goal? If course there would be less chance of a "black
American" occupying the role, but that would be for exactly the right reason,
lower representation in the population from which one is selecting.

>we as white people rarely experience said butt hurt //

Is this perhaps simply down to expectation. The "it's because I is black"
meme: if you're a minority in a particular physical characteristic and fail to
achieve a role you assume discrimination. The corollary is that whilst
discrimination might not be felt emotionally is still unfair to discriminate
against a person based on the colour of their skin.

You're right about empathy, but empathy with those suffering racist
discrimination is a strange place to decide to be racist.

------
cblum
> Microsoft released a chatbot named Tay, designed to learn from Twitter
> users. Within 24 hours, Tay claimed the Holocaust never happened, professed
> hatred for women and suggested that black people should be hanged.

> “Garbage in, garbage out,” software engineers say. Likewise, racism in,
> racism out. Biased developers produce biased code.

The author either made zero effort to understand how things work, or willingly
chose to pass judgment on developers to drive his political point.

"Biased developers produce biased code" \- absolute nonsense.

~~~
Buge
>> “Garbage in, garbage out,” software engineers say. Likewise, racism in,
racism out. Biased developers produce biased code.

Every sentence individually is true. And Tay was a case of garbage in garbage
out. But the Tay case didn't involve biased developers. The garbage in came
from Twitter trolls, not from the code or developers.

~~~
cblum
Exactly. I found it very dishonest that the author is trying to imply that
what happened to Tay was due to developers being biased.

~~~
jakelazaroff
You don’t think developers can program defensively against their ML Twitter
bot picking up racism?

~~~
Buge
Just because a developer doesn't intentionally put in code to block racism
doesn't mean the developer is biased.

~~~
bsanr
Doesn't it? Neglect when you otherwise would take care is evidence of bias.

~~~
Buge
They didn't put in code to block Tay from promoting cryptocurrency ponzi
schemes, does that mean the developers support cryptocurrency ponzi schemes?

If "otherwise take care" means block every form of bad thing, they aren't
otherwise taking care.

------
goldcd
I was happily nodding along, until I got to:

"Somehow, he managed to obtain copies of the IBM entrance examination
questions and answers, which he surreptitiously shared with promising young
black job applicants. He coached them on passing the exam and succeeding in
their interviews. Many were subsequently hired."

I'm sure this helped contribute to an increase in black hires, but is a
stupidly short-sighted thing to do and then boast about.

~~~
goog-anon
Black engineer here at a FANG. I do this all the time with black candidates
who interview. In fact I use my round to coach them on the upcoming rounds and
give them stellar feedback afterward. I know many would think this is
ethically egregious, but it is only balancing the unbelievable prejudice
against them by Asian interviewers who would not pass a black candidate under
any circumstance.

~~~
anon9922
Is it fair to assume then that when you interview an Asian candidate, you will
hold them to a much higher bar than black candidates? Or perhaps under no
circumstances would you pass them for a role that another Black candidate is
applying for?

I'm Asian, worked at FANG, have never discriminated against someone based on
their ethnicity and frankly find your actions shortsided and regressive.
You're fighting perceived racism with actual racism.

~~~
goog-anon
>I'm Asian, worked at FANG, have never discriminated against someone based on
their ethnicity and frankly find your actions shortsided and regressive.
You're fighting perceived racism with actual racism.

No one think they have ever discriminated against someone based on ethnicity.
Even Donald Trump sincerely believes in his heart of hearts that he is the
least racist person who has ever walked this good earth. But actions speak
louder than words, and my real life experiences are not 'perceived', nor are
the results. If a black candidate has two Asian interviewers in a loop,
chances of hire are nil, no matter the skill of the candidate. This is based
on a sample of ~15-20. I really wish tech companies collected data about the
ethnic background of both the interviewers, candidates and the results to
clearly illuminate this glaring problem, otherwise everything I say is
anecdotal/heresay.

Even speaking for myself, when I've interviewed the only places I've received
offers were during loops where there was a max of one asian interviewer.

As for your first question, I'm getting into murky waters but I'll admit that
it is difficult to put aside the fact that every Asian you hire, makes it
harder for another black candidate to get hired. But it's definitely not as
simple as rejecting every asian candidate, definitely don't want to leave a
pattern behind :)

~~~
ecorithm
> As for your first question, I'm getting into murky waters but I'll admit
> that it is difficult to put aside the fact that every Asian you hire, makes
> it harder for another black candidate to get hired. But it's definitely not
> as simple as rejecting every asian candidate, definitely don't want to leave
> a pattern behind :) i'l leave it there.

This has to be Poe's law. This is incredibly racist.

~~~
handlegoeshere
You don't understand what racism is.

~~~
ecorithm
Racism isn't always obvious and can definitely be subtle. But actively
discriminating against a whole group of people based on ethnicity is cut and
dry racism.

The grand parent said he was getting into "murky waters" but in fact he is
fully submerged in the deep end of racism.

~~~
human20190310
I think there's more informational value in hearing goog-anon's perspective
than in condemning it.

~~~
taradinoc
Yes, goog-anon is doing candidates -- and the lawyers in Wilberg v. Google --
a huge favor by admitting on the record that there's explicit racial bias in
their hiring process.

------
mieseratte
> Recent studies conclude this is not a “pipeline” problem — qualified
> candidates can be found.

Really wish they'd provided a link to the stud(y|ies). There certainly exist
qualified people of all stripes, but are there enough to meet a population-
level representative size?

~~~
throwawayjava
There is a huge pipeline problem.

The only articles I've read claiming there isn't one have all been click bait
pieces written by journos, not scientists or educators, and contain no data.
Just wild ass speculation about the underlying causes of the pipeline problem.

Which, yeah. The pipeline problem has lots of causes. But saying "we don't
have a pipeline problem because there are reasons women don't major in CS"
makes no sebse. It's like saying the roof doesn't have a leaking problem
because the real problem is that the gutters are clogged. I mean, sure, that's
true, and we need to fix that to fix the roof. But the roof is still
leaking...

The only real argument I've heard that isn't prime facie flawed in this way is
the argument that you don't really need college educated computer scientists
to fill your SWE roles. That may be true for some roles and some companies,
but lots of positions (e.g. all the ones I hire for) do require a strong
education in CS and math. PhDs in STEM fields that go on to good boot camps or
masters programs in CS can be good fits, but those are even more rare.

And, again, even that argument has no data to back it in the articles I've
read. It's just not prime facia illogical.

~~~
povertyworld
Part of the pipeline problem is that you're not winning over the most high
achieving minority students to stem. I remember there was a Mexican American
woman in one of my calc classes that was easily the best student and smoked
everyone else (granted, it was at a second rate state school), but when asked
what she wanted to do, she said she was going to be a dentist. People coming
from underrepresented backgrounds don't want to spend 8 years doing a Phd,
then a ML bootcamp, all so they can make low 6 figures at a job that could be
outsourced or H1Bed at any minute when they could instead go to medical,
dental, or law school and have a respected and well paid career.

~~~
creato
> but when asked what she wanted to do, she said she was going to be a
> dentist.

Just guessing here, but there's probably a message board and clique of web
blogs about dentistry full of people discussing the underrepresentation of
minorities in their field and how they can fix their "pipeline problem".

~~~
povertyworld
Out of curiosity I just googled it, and yes, there is, and it's actually more
serious than lack of diversity in adtech. If there aren't enough
underrepresented minority applicants at Google, they will just have to hire an
overrepresented minority to spy on you instead. But if the dental schools
aren't producing enough minority dentists, those communities may not have
access to quality dental care.

~~~
cameronbrown
> But if the dental schools aren't producing enough minority dentists, those
> communities may not have access to quality dental care.

Sorry, I must have missed the memo that citizens can only visit dentists of
the same ethnicity.

~~~
shard
You shouldn't be surprised that people prefer to see doctors (and lawyers and
plumbers etc) from their home country and speak their native language.
Similarly, if you were living in a foreign country with a different national
language, you'd likely prefer the same.

~~~
cameronbrown
Just because someone is a different ethnicity doesn't mean we don't have a
shared culture. Immigrants move to a country because they like the
language/culture and want to be a part of it.

~~~
handlegoeshere
Immigrants move to a country to take advantage of the opportunities there and
improve their standard of living. I have never met an immigrant that moved to
a foreign country because they "liked the language/culture and want to be part
of it".

~~~
cameronbrown
Then maybe the incentives are wrong? If I ever move to another country, I'll
pick the country based on the culture, not just on opportunity. It's too
important not to think about.

~~~
setr
depends on the (source:target) pair. People immigrating from India->US are
coming from a vastly different background/goals/needs than those going
US->India. Money probably dramatically beats out culture wants until you reach
a certain point; those coming from a first-world country likely have lower
monetary wants, and so culture has greater relative value.

Those coming from third-world to first-world are likely much more interested
in money than culture, and I can't say for certain but my intuition is that
the kinds of ethnic segregation (eg in NY/Chicago, where there's a whole array
of little microtowns) that you see in the US are mostly generated by those
poorer populations seeking wealth, not cultural value.

I imagine the equivalent American/European expat towns don't exist nearly as
strongly/commonly in india/china, as the inverse exists in the US. (of course,
you'd also expect _less_ americans/europeans migrating to india/china, since
the monetary difference isn't as strong).

------
bsanr
Here's hoping that HN can buck Law 619 of the Internet: the comment section of
all articles which mention data that shows social, economic, or institutional
disparities which negatively effect black people will largely be concerned not
with the implications of that information, but with questioning the
authenticity or reliability of that information; or else, simply with thinly-
veiled racism.

I'll keep a running list of such comments until I get tired of it.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21043809](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21043809)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21042933](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21042933)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21042076](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21042076)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21043252](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21043252)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21044206](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21044206)

~~~
rongenre
I never see it as thinly-veiled. Just-world fallacy is pervasive.

~~~
projektfu
Usually people just need an eye-opener to jump out of the just world fallacy.
But some people really cling to it, the way they cling to their original
viewpoint in every argument. The person could have experienced the progression
of a manager through their company who got started there because he was
friends with so and so or went to the same prep school, and because of his
personality traits continues to get promoted even though his record is subpar.
They may have even complained about it in another thread. Yet, when it comes
to race, they assume that this perfect meritocracy is open to everyone.

------
proc0
> He coached them on passing the exam and succeeding in their interviews. Many
> were subsequently hired. Yet the percentage of blacks and non-Asian
> minorities in high-tech professions consistently remains under 2%.

tl;dr:"My father helped hire a lot of people, yet somehow total demographics
didn't change". Right, one person should have definitely solved the problem
but incredibly it didn't. Brilliant _logic_.

------
Iwan-Zotow
And how that matters? Show us the code!

------
tamaharbor
Yet, there are a lot of black professional basketball players. Go figure.

