
Standing Up For Android - davidedicillo
http://www.marco.org/2011/12/07/standing-up-for-android
======
akent
For a while I wished for a decent Instapaper client for Android, either paid
or free. But eventually I gave up and switched to Read It Later, which is
perfectly adequate for my needs. I don't see what all the fuss is about over
Instapaper in particular when there are competing services that work just fine
and that care enough to develop an Android app themselves.

~~~
carldall
Don't forget the lock in. If you've been using Instapaper for 2 years, you
might have a huge archive and a couple of good friends that share interesting
stuff. You'd loose all of that by switching to Read It Later.

One thing that I sorely miss in Instapaper though is the ability to mark text
fragments and save them as quotes (like in iBooks for example), and add notes
to it. I'm reading all these texts, and I can't mark quotes or note my
thoughts. I hate it. Does Read It Later offer such a feature?

~~~
nnutter
You can export your stuff from Instapaper as CSV. Read it Later lets you
export your stuff as HTML. If you wanted to switch you could probably script
the migration in a few minutes.

------
mhw
I think a lot of people here are making an assumption that the majority of the
effort here will be in building the application. But note Marco's words:

> then supporting and maintaining it in parallel with my iOS app indefinitely

and

> you’ll answer all support email that comes from it

I think Marco's insight is that he knows how much support work he gets just
from the iOS application (notice all those posts he does about what proportion
of devices have different versions of iOS on them, and the consequences for a
developer). And I think his perception is that supporting an Android
application could well be much more effort, at least partly because there are
many more OS versions and device combinations. The developers here are
probably thinking "hey this must be 90% development work, 10% answering
emails"; Marco might be thinking of it more like "this could be 60% answering
emails, 40% writing code" (I'm guessing at the numbers to illustrate the
point, by the way).

Developing the application himself would involve learning Android development
to a level where he can produce an application that meets his high standards.
Contracting the development work out would still leave him needing to support
the Android application. I can see why the option he's suggesting looks
attractive.

~~~
coob
I get twice the volume of Android support emails than iOS. Android sales are
5% of iOS sales.

The vast majority of them are nothing I can do about as they relate to the
install/refund process.

~~~
rbanffy
I once (2000 or so) wrote a very smart webmail client used by my then client's
customer service. The most used feature were context-sensitive canned
responses. It would check the message for keywords (Bayesian filtering came
later) and suggest the most likely answer. It was an ugly JSP-based thing that
took me a month to write. It should be much quicker to do now with modern
technology.

~~~
coob
Yes, we have done this.

Doesn't help that precisely 0% of people appreciate getting an automatic form
letter over a personal reply.

~~~
rbanffy
You need to make the canned responses use actual client data, have some
variability and track what canned responses were used before for the client.
We also allowed the human operator to customize the message and check if what
the machine thinks is appropriate really is. We had more than 80% accuracy and
we continuously measured that against the keywords found in the previous
messages.

------
aaronbrethorst
Well that's the worst deal I've ever seen in my life.

OK, being the "official Instapaper app for Android" would be great...But a
50/50 rev split for merely receiving Marco's blessing and promotion?

I think I'd rather build a competing service instead.

~~~
ricardobeat
If developing an Android version is as easy as they put it, this can be a very
profitable deal. It's safe to assume you'd make way more money than you would
by building this as a contractor.

You get a few thousand paying customers to begin with. Your competing service
would take at least a year to catch up, and has no guarantee of success.

~~~
CaveTech
Yet he already claims it wouldn't be profitable for him to do it. He's
allowing you to build an application which he wouldn't make with to begin
with, and them claim 50% of the profit...

~~~
SoftwareMaven
He has an additional cost you aren't factoring into the equation: opportunity
cost. This is the money he loses by not focusing on iOS. He isn't saying the
app isn't worth building, he's saying the app isn't worth _him_ building.

Seriously, these term are generous as far as these kinds of deals go, but I'm
not sure you could make money on it. It would really depend on how good other
existing clients are.

~~~
CaveTech
He's going further than saying it's not worth _him_ building, he's saying it's
not worth building at all. If it was worth building, he would hire someone to
do it for him. He's saying he could accept it if it falls into his lap,
costing him exactly $0.

~~~
latch

       If it was worth building, he would hire someone to do it for him
    

Managing people isn't only expensive, it's something a lot of people don't
want to do.

~~~
w0utert
I think none of this is relevant, it's pretty clear Arment personally doesn't
believe that anyone can make an 'Android Instapaper' with the same quality,
features, and level of support, running on enough compatible devices and sold
through enough Android marketplaces, to make it _as profitable_ as just
concentrating on iOS and be done with it.

The challenge he puts forward is for someone who disagrees to take up.
Personally, looking at the Android ecosystem and the quality of applications
in the Android Marketplace, I think he's right. It's perfectly possible to
write great Android apps, and many exist, but if you look at who makes them,
they are without exception applications made by big corporations who don't
make money off the apps themselves, but from associated services, ads, etc.

------
angryasian
If you haven't tried Spool on android, then you'd understand why instapaper is
not needed for Android.
[https://market.android.com/details?id=com.spool&hl=en](https://market.android.com/details?id=com.spool&hl=en)

Saves everything for offline reading and viewing of videos and text. Reformats
pages, for text only. Great chrome extension to make it easier.

~~~
suprgeek
+1 for Spool. Goto App for InstaPapery stuff on Android.

No need to bother Marco for porting.

------
jhack
Asking for a 50% cut for someone else's work (which, in his own words, "almost
certainly won’t be worth the investment") on a platform he's been trolling for
years? Is he dense?

~~~
sudonim
Instapaper is not just the app. It's the supporting web service and brand too.
It's not 50% of a new thing. It's 50% of instapaper for android which is
nothing without instapaper.

~~~
guywithabike
And thousands of paying users.

------
va_coder
There's already an equivalent product on Android called ReadItLater. Moving
along to other things...

~~~
baconner
Just checked out of curiosity and readitlater pro has 100k+ downloads. There
couldn't be a clearer indication that Marco is leaving money on the table.

~~~
enra
With a price of $0.10, that's about $10k. The pricepoint is about 50x less
than Instapaper.

~~~
aristidb
That's a temporary promotion.

~~~
Huppie
The description says 'launch sale: 40% off', so the normal price would be
what? $0.17?

~~~
ryandvm
Google is in the middle of a 10 day sale that puts 100 apps on sale for $0.10.
The minimum price in the Android Market is normally $0.99.

[http://www.techspot.com/news/46574-android-10-cent-app-
sale-...](http://www.techspot.com/news/46574-android-10-cent-app-
sale-10-billion-downloads-and-counting.html)

------
martinadamek
I am in for the challenge!
[https://market.android.com/details?id=com.codecarpet.reading...](https://market.android.com/details?id=com.codecarpet.readingo.dev)

------
Supermighty
I bought and paid for Read It Later on Android and stopped using Instapaper
because there was no native app for Instapaper on Android.

I am your lost sale Marco.

------
erwanl
Who cares about Instapaper for Android? ReadItLater is at 10c on the market
right now.

Leave short-minded developers to their Objective-C and use apps from
developers who care about the platform you chose.

~~~
dmishe
> short-minded developers to their Objective-C

I see what you did there

------
ypcx
"What do you say?" -- I say Android 4.0 "save pages for viewing later offline"
feature. I can't comment on the 50% cut as I don't know how much your API
provides, but as for marketing I'd imagine I could target the "instapaper
android" long tail and be done with it? Maybe not.

~~~
bigiain
I'd happily pay $2.99 (or $4.99 or maybe even more) for a great Android
Instapaper app over using "save pages for viewing later offline". The reason
being that Instapaper deals with multi-device sync properly for me. For me,
the real "magic" of Instapaper is being able to bookmark interesting looking
articles on my laptop before I leave home in the morning, read some of them on
the iPad at a cafe on the way to work, read/bookmark some more in gaps at work
on my work machine, and skim through articles on my phone while in the queue
at the bank or post office... As a mobile developer, I alternate between a few
phones, and I really miss the Instapaper iPhone client when I'm carrying an
Android device...

~~~
eavc
I wonder how far off that functionality is given Android's new syncing with
Chrome.

~~~
comex
And iOS syncing Reading Lists with Safari via iCloud...

Lots of little walled gardens in the clouds.

------
ntoshev
What is this talk about "ripping off my iOS app’s private API"? Is there a
reason it shouldn't be available for Android, and Android apps should use an
inferior API?

I understand people would not make some API public until they are ready to
support it, but here this guy seems offended because people somehow stole his
work - which seems ridiculous.

~~~
hassing
It's not about an "inferior API". The web version of Instapaper is free - but
if you want to use a native client on your phone then you either have to pay a
subscription fee to get API access, or buy the official iPhone client.

------
nestlequ1k
The Android community has moved on. Instapaper had its day, and will be around
for some time. But there are way better apps, that have a commitment to all
platforms and more features, faster dev iteration. Spool is the one for me.

------
zrgiu_
Looks like a rather good deal to me. Being backed by Instapaper automatically
gets you a lot of users. What would be the chances for any indie developer to
get half of those users without Instapaper's support ?

~~~
akent
Which users do you get automatically, exactly? Surely not the ones using the
Instapaper iPhone app...

~~~
zrgiu_
\- users that have heard of Instapaper and need an app that does what this
does. When they need an app that does a certain thing, the majority of the
users will pick the popular brand.

\- users that have switched from an iPhone recently and have been using that

\- users that have seen the app on a friend's phone

etc ...

Seriously now, if you built a game now, and got EA Games to publish it for
you, wouldn't you like to get 50% of the profits? Not anyone can build a
minecraft

~~~
akent
Case 1 and 3 would be new business, you'd still have to convince those users
that Instapaper is right for them, there's nothing automatic about it. Also
what makes you think Instapaper is the popular brand on Android?

Case 2 I'll concede but that's hardly "a lot" of users.

------
joshsharp
InstaFetch for Android possibly qualifies. The recently revamped version is
very nice.

~~~
nnutter
InstaFetch sucks in a lot of ways. I bought it on the Kindle Fire and it has a
couple huge flaws.

Pagination hides text behind the Fire's little menu bar.

You have to click a button (or wait a minimum of an hour) to sync. The sync
process takes minutes.

Not to mention it cost more than Instapaper for iOS.

~~~
nnutter
It also lacks the article length estimate which is really nice when you are
trying to find something short to read while you're in line or something.

------
foobarbazetc
Marco, if you're reading this: don't do it. Even with a 50/50 split, you're
going to be leaving a tonne of money on the table.

IMHO, you should contract someone you respect to do the V1, buy the code from
them and own all the rights, and start maintaining it along side your iOS
version.

Launching on Android will double your revenue.

~~~
rrrazdan
I dont think he can do that. He cares deeply about his apps, like everyone
here does. He can't 'contract' it. I know I can't.

------
pankajdoharey
Standing up for Android? 70% of apps in android market wont work on Kindle,
Plus you cannot directly install from Android market on Kindle as it goes to
Amazon App Store. What Are you even talking about who will test the apps on so
many devices ?

Android has come a long way: 100 million activations, 450,000 developers, 215
carriers, 310 devices, 112 countries, 400,000 activations per day, 200,000
apps in the Android market, 4.5 billion apps installed. (shamelessly stolen
from :<http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2011/07/google-io-2011.html>)

If that is not all to deter you, Developing the class of games you can develop
on Obj-C because it produces native code. cannot be done on Dalvik/java.
Writing GL/SL shaders is very tough compared to Obj-C which has better support
as it is C.

You have excellent debugging tools at your disposal on iOS and then look at
Android Debugger :( You never know, You can never optimize your games on
android the way you can on iOS, Just because it generates a native executable.
Sure some day even android would support native apps, But that day the app
delivery promise would be broken. You would have to make games for at-least
the major mobile manufacturers and test them on major variants. And You would
still end up not reaching potentially every android device. Because of
Hardware profile inconsistency. So the whole reachablity is a myth.

Add to that the day someone starts developing an App on android in C++ whats
the advantage ? There were many Open platforms before android whats new ? Look
at Openmoko.org

Sure android is great for freeloaders but the consumer just ends up paying the
same amount in-spite of the OS being free. What the point really that android
is making ? that no one else before it made ?

Android is a ton of hype + Google Marketing + Semiconductor
Gangs(Samsung+LG+others..)

~~~
untog
_Standing up for Android? 70% of apps in android market wont work on Kindle_

The Kindle is not Android. I mean, technically- to the HN crowd- it is. But as
far as Google, Amazon and the consumer are concerned, it isn't. So Android
Market not working with it is an irrelevance.

OpenMoko? No-one used it. "What's new" with Android is the millions of people
using it. Of course there is plenty of money to be made there.

~~~
pankajdoharey
Frankly give me an example of straightaway success like iOS on Android, Just
one example would be enough. I tell you there is none. And then there is a
growing problem of pirated apps on android. Now i will give you an example of
straight away success on iOS, tapulous.com and many more are there, iOS is
where millions could be made, Android impossible. Lead by example.

------
david_a_r_kemp
Marco - thanks, but your API still says it's BETA. If I want to develop an app
- and provide integration with social networking sites - having a stable API
for the core product is a must.

------
quizbiz
What about a largely HTML5 based app?

~~~
babebridou
3 years into Android and those devices still can't display webpages at the
speed and precision that we'd need them to. I haven't had the chance to try
out Ice Cream Sandwich yet, but I have this rule of thumb: html5 is
crossbrowser alright, but not crossplatform yet.

When I look at how my desktop's chrome browser is faring with Twitter being
laggy to scroll, with processes taking up far more ram than what the android
heap would allow, all this while the devices display sizes increase radically
and hog for even more graphic performance... I simply don't see HTML5 as any
sort of reasonable option for Android, at least until the market is filled
with ICS+ API level devices. And even then, I still haven't seen if ICS can
handle webviews properly enough for building full apps.

------
benschwarz
I'm continually surprised by developers throwing out figures like 50% this or
that… the (30%) apple app store is a great example.

If you've ever actually RUN anything, you'll know that 30% is pretty much
nothing — try retail, or farming.

I think Marco is looking to be proven wrong. He doesn't believe enough in
android as a platform — but, what he is offering is the support of his massive
audience for someone to have a crack at.

------
nextparadigms
What's with the copy-paste headline by Marco? And for daring to say something
as ridiculous as that, I'm surprised this guy gets so often on the front page
of HN.

Forget we even asked Marco! We don't need Instapaper for Android. We'll
survive. Now Android 4.0 has a "read later" feature in the stock browser,
anyway.

~~~
jshen
This is a bit of a tangent, butI have a droid x2 I bought less than 6 months
ago, and I have absolutely no idea if 4.0 will ever come to my phone or when
if it does.

This is one of the many problems with android, and I doubt I'll buy another
android phone primarily for this reason.

