
Shutting Down a Dream - bratfarrar
http://dandreamsofcoding.com/2013/08/07/shutting-down-a-dream/
======
patio11
_100 calls to talk to 10 people to get 1 in-person demo, frequently in another
state. I got in the car, put on the suit, and did the demos. I put together
some signage, set up a booth at ACTFL, IALLT, and military linguist
conventions. My parents saw a lot of me (they live near a lot of colleges), I
stayed in a lot of cheap motels, and slowly, I built a list of customers. Not
a lot, never enough. Harvard, Yale, Brown, and other top schools were among my
customers, but I never made the “big score” – the state school with tens of
thousands of students._

This is, in a nutshell, why Bingo Card Creator has a price tag, a no-touch
sales model, and no phone number. People write me, to this day, saying "I have
a question about the product. Call me at 555 555-5555 between the hours of 3
PM and 4 PM." My response is a polite variant of "No."

I've had this discussion with a few people who make software for
teachers/students and I hate to be the Business Guy, but just like "Buy for
$2, sell for $1, make it up in volume" is not a sustainable plan, you can't
use enterprise sales tactics (+) at consumer price points. If sales requires a
phone call, we've low-bounded the product at hundreds of dollars. If it
requires an in-person meeting, the lower bound is now $50k. That isn't "Could
potentially be $50k if each of your 2,000 students pays $25", that's "You will
be invoiced $50k."

\+ Absent heavy modification. There are low-touch/high-touch hybrids which can
work at the $100~$500 a month mark.

[Edit: The definitive article on this is Joel Spolsky's Camels and Rubber
Duckies.
[http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CamelsandRubberDuckie...](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CamelsandRubberDuckies.html)
Search for [The reason I bring this up is because software is priced three
ways: free, cheap, and dear.] My only quibble is that both the pricing model
and emerging standard marketing/sales model for SaaS companies have made the
no-man's land he talks about a very interesting place to be in the ~10 years
since this was written.]

------
j2d3
"When you have children, you can have exactly one hobby. Anything else is an
exercise in futility, self-deception, and ineffectiveness. Cooking healthy
food is a hobby. Exercising is a hobby. Maintaining a website is a hobby.
Writing a blog is a hobby. Bringing work home is a hobby. You have time to do
exactly one thing after your kids go to sleep, if you want to do it well."

Yes. Ugh. And I cannot pick one.

~~~
throwit1979
Relevant to the story earlier today, John Carmack has three jobs and two
children. He tweets regularly, speaks at cons, and occasionally blogs on
altdev. He also reportedly lifts weights regularly.

It's not impossible.

~~~
x0x0
your comparison is stupid

1 - he's a multimillionaire. He can afford to offload lots of cooking
(restaurants), cleaning (cleaners), childcare (nannies), loss of income (stay
at home partner), shorten his commute (purchase a house close to work, put a
gym in the basement)

2 - even with all of the above, I still bet his wife does a big chunk of the
household maintenance and childcare

~~~
brymaster
> your comparison is stupid

[http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

    
    
      In Comments
    
      Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation.
    
      When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names.
    
      E.g. "That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

~~~
mgkimsal
He didn't say the OP was stupid, just the comparison. I would say a variation
of that, but might actually say 'stupid', depending on how amiable the
group/person is, and how well I could inflect my voice to my funny instead of
mean.

~~~
brymaster
Er, I didn't say that _he_ said the OP was stupid _either_

> E.g. "That is an idiotic thing to say;

~~~
mgkimsal
That's a poor example then. "Calling names" generally refers to attacking the
person/people, not ideas/things. I saw nothing uncivil about the 'stupid'
post, unless you chose to read it in an iflammatory tone of voice.

~~~
brymaster
Take it up with PG

~~~
mgkimsal
He's not the one who pointed it out; you did. ;)

~~~
brymaster
Yeah, it's his rules, remember? ;)

------
noname123
Someone save this site. It's a pretty cool site that helps people learn
languages.

Man, so much crap out there with new flash sales websites, new aggregators for
media consumption, startup's that do home cleaning. But a website that tries
to teach people something enriching without a business model, but just tries
to do a good job gets tossed on the way side.

We need a foundation or grant program for non-profit and NGO websites. Most
startups are crap-shoots anyways, VCs and developers should waste respectively
their money and time on things that do good than the usual social media crap
or new online marketing channels for conventional businesses.

~~~
lobotryas
>Someone save this site

This someone can be you. Call up OP and give him an offer for all the code and
IP.

~~~
wozniacki
Is there no one that could take this (and others like this) to the notice of a
Moskovitz or a Houston, in a discreet way and without much fanfare, so that a
lifeline could be had?

This should be chump change to any valley Mogul.

[http://givingpledge.org/](http://givingpledge.org/)

Self-pleasuring vibrator projects seem to be able to get funded with a lot
more ease, for Pete's sake.

[http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/29/sex-pun-goes-
here/](http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/29/sex-pun-goes-here/)

~~~
melling
There is funding going into language learning software.

[http://www.crunchbase.com/company/duolingo](http://www.crunchbase.com/company/duolingo)

[http://www.crunchbase.com/company/mindsnacks](http://www.crunchbase.com/company/mindsnacks)

And as I mentioned below, the space is crowded with plenty of little guys...
like myself. :-) Most of us will lose. That's capitalism. Hopefully, the
survivors will be much better because they competed in such a crowded space,
and the consumer wins big in the end.

------
v2rev1
This story resonates so much! I'm in the same space as OP and even doing
something similar at [http://membean.com](http://membean.com) .

Where our story digresses is that we got paid traction quickly. Early on we
decided we wouldn't be free and we'd convince schools(& parents) that we
offered enough value to pay for it. We narrowed in on a very specific need,
focussed obsessively on quality, provided our teachers fantastic customer
service, kept our burn rate very low, bootstrapped(it was hard) and just
buckled down and executed.

Along the way, somehow, and this was crucial, our teachers turned into
evangelists - parents, principals and administrators took note. It wasn't that
they just liked what we offered -- they went to bat for it. Many of our
teachers spent 8+ months convincing their principals and district officials to
buy us. Private schools were crucial in the beginning to get our cash flow
going, public schools took longer but we waited patiently (and nervously)

The current ecosystem is not friendly to Ed startups, it's stacked in favor of
the large Ed vendors who have the manpower to closely follow budget
allocations, develop long term relationships across 50 states and have deep
knowledge on how to work the system.

OP, congrats for sticking to this for so long. I suspect that it was
incredibly draining but along the way you've helped countless teachers &
students and that should count for a lot.

~~~
stevewillows
You could probably get his contacts for a case of beer :)

------
abhiv
This is the story of too many startups in the edtech space. Slow growth,
grateful users, but not enough traction to grow the company through revenue or
outside funding.

Very few edtech companies have managed to avoid this fate, and often come down
to one or two people keeping the product going as a labor of love. There are a
number of reasons for this, including the fact that sales are inherently high-
touch and expensive, and that the users (teachers/kids) and payers
(administrators) have different perspectives and incentives.

Great article. Congrats on sticking it out so long.

~~~
yeahrightdbag
What's funny about EdTech is just how awful some of the software is that has
funding. Especially the LMS/SIS side of things.

------
steveridout
In case anyone is wondering, the site he is referring to is:
[http://www.wordchamp.com/lingua2/Home.do](http://www.wordchamp.com/lingua2/Home.do)

Articles like this scare me. I've been working for 8 months full time now on a
bootstrapped website for learning vocabulary via reading
([http://readlang.com](http://readlang.com)). I've been advised a few times
that it's extremely hard to make money with this kind of site but for now I'm
ploughing ahead anyway. Reading this gives me pause for thought but as long as
I've getting good feedback I'm happy to keep going and see where it might
lead.

Even in the worst case though, I hope that I wouldn't ever need to shut down
the site, and that it could at least pay for it's hosting costs and be
automated to keep running with minimal maintenance.

~~~
djt
I would encourage you to start charging customers or to find another
monetisation strategy for it, unless youre getting mmassive traction you arent
a aquisition target and if its nice but free then it may never make money.

~~~
steveridout
It's still early days and I'm more focused on growing the user base right now.

Saying that, since last month I put a daily cap on phrase translations for
free users and a 'Readlang Supporter' plan at $10 / year for unlimited
translations and to support development through the beta period. So far I've
had 13 payments, a total of $130, which I'm pretty happy with since a) the
user base is currently small (about 500 signed up since I added the payment
option), b) it's validation that people are willing to pay for the service,
and c) I've got a lot of ideas for improving it in future.

------
jaggederest
Why not let someone else take it over for free? I don't understand killing it
instead of looking at other ways to hand it off.

~~~
rabidonrails
In certain cases this is easier said than done. If he hands it off he'll need
to teach someone else how to run the site, how to deal with each customer, how
to...

Shutting it down will let him breathe again without having to worry. It's like
ripping off the bandaid.

~~~
jaggederest
I don't buy it. You can give someone the keys and say 'good luck, don't call
me', and have a nonzero probability of it succeeding without any further
intervention than you'd have to use for shutting it down.

~~~
unreal37
Easy to say when its not yours, I suspect. If he got to this point by thinking
he was wasting his life at this thing, why would he consider giving it to
someone else to waste their life? And his customers are his friends. It's like
giving his friends away to a stranger and saying "don't call me".

~~~
mistercow
>It's like giving his friends away to a stranger and saying "don't call me".

Is that worse than locking your friends out in the cold, tossing them their
stuff, and shutting the door?

------
sideproject
Sorry for sounding like a blatant marketing. But we just launched
[http://sideprojectors.com](http://sideprojectors.com) where you can find
someone else to take over your project. Hopefully we can help your project
from being killed.

------
coffeemug
In case the author is reading.

Kudos for finding the courage to stick with it, and the courage to quit. Those
who have been in this position know what a heavy burden it can be. I hope you
can find it within yourself not to turn cynical, and to use your skills and
experience to make a positive change in the world. (Or, if you choose to just
live your life, my hat still goes off to you)

~~~
bratfarrar
:)

------
jmathai
I can't imagine the weight of shutting something down which you've spent
almost a decade on. While this is a tail of not getting to product market fit
it's the struggle of every entrepreneur.

Knowing how long to stick it out and when to call it quits. There is no right
answer. The right answer is when you reach your limits. Most people's limit is
much less than 10 years.

Getting to the point where shit hits the fan (out of money with a family) has
to be one of the hardest experiences outside of losing loved ones.

Congrats to the OP for their determination. At the same time I share my
condolences at the time, energy and money that the experience cost.

He has this to hold on to...

> I’m glad I had the courage to try, and I’m grateful for the insight it gave
> me into what it takes to build a business.

------
dmcg
As someone who can't let anything go, I found this is touching and inspiring.
Thanks for having the courage to give it a go, and to stop.

------
jitnut
Dan, I admired the fact you hanged on to your dream such long. It takes lot of
courage and perseverance. I have been in your shoes and have felt the pain
when its time to let go of the dream. But when you clear it off, it feels
great. Once i met a founder of startup who gave advice 'You should be
passionate about your idea but not disproportionately passionate' All the
best!

------
jborden13
Sounds like a very long lesson learned on product market fit. Best of luck to
the op if he tries again.

------
riggins
what's the site?

~~~
jessepollak
I would guess that it is this one:
[http://www.wordchamp.com/lingua2/Home.do](http://www.wordchamp.com/lingua2/Home.do).

------
invisible
If it is a profitable/good idea - surely someone out there would buy it from
you for some small amount of money. Or is the monthly income not worth someone
buying?

Wouldn't everyone win in that case?

------
wehadfun
Really someone needs to do a marketplace to buy and sell these projects. I'm
sure a project that has customers is worth something.

deadstart.com restart.com ...

------
Dewie
> When you have children, you can have exactly one hobby. Anything else is an
> exercise in futility, self-deception, and ineffectiveness. Cooking healthy
> food is a hobby. Exercising is a hobby. Maintaining a website is a hobby.
> Writing a blog is a hobby. Bringing work home is a hobby. You have time to
> do exactly one thing after your kids go to sleep, if you want to do it well.
> The pointless waste of time had to go.

21 century, the first world, and yet raising children is an almost
insurmountable task. No wonder fertility rates in the West are so low.

~~~
reedlaw
Maybe this is the case in the US, but it's not so for the West as a whole,
viz.: the hands-off French approach:
[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020474090457719...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204740904577196931457473816.html)

~~~
Dewie
> Rest assured, I certainly don't suffer from a pro-France bias. Au contraire,
> I'm not even sure that I like living here. I certainly don't want my kids
> growing up to become sniffy Parisians.

It's hilarious that she included a paragraph solely to excuse herself for
complimenting a certain aspect of the French lifestyle, presumably in order to
appease the (imaginary or not) anti-France streak in the American
consciousness.

~~~
pm90
Off topic, but:I have seen this anti-French attitude a lot (in most cases,
jokingly). What is the reason for the American dislike for the French? One
Frenchman I talked to said that its because France does not always support US
Foreign policy....is that really the case?

~~~
acheron
As you said, it's mostly a joke, usually exaggerated for comic effect. Even
calling it "anti-French" may be too much; it's just playing off a stereotype
of French people as snobby and overly "sophisticated" (in a slightly
derogatory way). I don't want to link it to working class/upper class or
rural/urban or whatever, since those aren't really right, but perhaps a
vaguely similar impulse.

Trying to tie it to "foreign policy" or something is thinking about it much
too hard.

~~~
toyg
That stereotype exists because, right before US elites started formalizing
their own cultural scenario (before F.S. Fitzgerald, to give a rough idea),
French culture was one of their main models, if not THE model. On the other
side, French elites invested a lot in the American Revolution and were quite
disappointed with the outcomes (a society characterized by freedom but also
rough and greedy, which eventually chose The Anglo Way in most matters and
stole their thunder as Beacon of Civilization). Ever since, both sides were
locked in a constant and intense debate in a way that very few other countries
experienced. It's funng because both French and US mainstream cultures agree
on very fundamental matters (the need for a secular State, the power of
technological progress, the importance of cinema and popular culture, down to
comicbooks) but express them in completely opposite ways in practice.

------
bengrunfeld
"The story of one man is the store of the entire world".

I think it's easy to talk down to someone who has admitted failure, but the
truth is we've all been through it, although some of us hide it better than
others.

My custom web-development business tanked last year after customers refused to
stop asking for changes. Insomnia & anxiety were frustratingly close friends
of mine too.

Maybe the site is shutting down and maybe you could have done something
different that would have succeeded more, but super-kudos for trying!

