
Ask HN: How to get out of Tech and still make a decent living? - byebyetech
I&#x27;ve been working as software engineer for over 15 years. I feel burned out and have no interest left in this field where learning new things just keeps you at the same place in life. And no respect for experience, unless you demonstrate on a whiteboard with your implementation of a sorted bubble tree list.<p>My question is, how to successfully get out of tech and still make decent living ($100k+). 
Has anyone tried small business that worked out for you?
======
jballanc
I knew a woman once who went to law school, but burned out on the law before
she passed the bar...so she went to medical school, but burned out on that
before she completed her residency. What she eventually realized, though, is
that there are very few people who have actually made it through both law
school _and_ medical school, so she set up a career for herself matching
doctors with lawyers who needed medical expert witnesses. You see, both law
and medicine have their own unique jargon, and she could effectively serve as
a translator between those two worlds. She made quite a pretty penny charging
her finder's fee too!

If you have 15 years experience doing software engineering, you're half-way to
the same sort of a position. Find some other field you're interested in and
learn up on their jargon, or take your most recent gig and dive deep into
whatever industry it is you're developing software for. Whether you call
yourself "biz-dev" or "project manager" or just "consultant", there is a
market for people who can effectively bridge the world of software engineering
with the world of...everything else.

~~~
bjelkeman-again
This is more or less what happened to me. I had worked in the sofware industry
for 15 years, when I decided to get out. Not a developer, but a trajectory of
pre-sales support/training, systems analyst, project manager, consultant, and
doing a few startups that made me enough money to live, but nothing
spectacular.

I took my hobby, sustainable large scale horticulture and tried to switch by
starting with a degree in environmental science. Actually taking a degree as
an experienced adult was a blast and I can really recommend it. Motivation,
even if lectures where boring or subjects hard, was never an issue.

I ended up meeting people at conferences, in my field of study
(geology/hydrology) who really needed help with data/information technology.
We started a new organisation and I am the co-director of a foundation that
run data services for sustainable international development. We have 25+
governments in Africa, Asia and Soth America, UN organisations and hundreds of
NGOs use our open source services. Very satisfying work and a decent living.

~~~
menssen
Out of curiosity, your later-in-life college experience: what kind of school
was it at? (Meaning: large state university, liberal arts college, Yale, for-
profit, etc.) As a college dropout who was a terrible student, I've been
wanting to go back more and more as time passes.

~~~
bjelkeman-again
Stockholm University, Sweden, which is a decent university. Not sure how that
compares to your experience. A government owned university with ~30,000
students. No fees for EU students. I was also a college dropout from Royal
Institute of Technology in Stockholm.

------
louprado
Coincidentally 15 years ago a fellow engineer told me his plan was to keep the
same job as long as possible, get to the point where it isn't demanding
intellectually, clock in the minimum hours, and then find fulfillment through
family, friends, and hobbies. He has built 3 homes in his spare time, is a
millionaire, and has an amazing family.

It took me 15 years to realize he was right. I now work 4 hours a day as a
.NET consultant and then spend the rest of day doing whatever I want. I am
fulfilled, relaxed, healthy and respected.

Before abandoning what many believe to be a highly desirable profession, just
cut back on your hours and revisit your feelings after a few months.

Lastly do not underestimate how smart and competitive people are in other
industries. It can take many years before you build the skills and reputation
where you can command $100k+. I'd argue it is 10X harder to for a small
business owner to net $100k than it is to net $50k.

~~~
rbosinger
I once rubbed a friend the wrong way when he said "maybe I'll just get out of
tech, take a few years of courses and become an electrician or something like
that. Make 100k and be happy with that... leave the computer behind."

My response was: "Fine plan but don't think you'll just go make 100k after a
couple years of trade school and not have any stresses!"

A few people showed me I was wrong about that but we were also living in
Alberta while oil was still strong. Had my friend taken this path he likely
wouldn't have made 100k for long if at all (until he had much more
experience).

Anyway, point being, it's hard to go make decent money even though we all meet
people who seem to do so with what seems like little effort. Lots of folks say
they make good money but their interpretation of "good money" might be much
different than the yours.

~~~
quackquackgo
I would not advise a job in the oil industry if you are a minority in. I've
heard lots of traumatic experiences from friends in Texas and Alberta.

Lots of good reviews in Norway though

~~~
cylinder
Houston oil execs: we need you to help us negotiate with this Arab guy.

Iranian-American: but I'm Iranian. Not Arab.

Execs: _blank stares_ Same thing though right?

Happened. That said, I wouldn't expect one to experience any malice in a
corporate Texas environment based on ethnicity or race. Rather, there's often
a narrow perspective, in that they want you to be as Texan as possible,
ideally an alumnus of their favorite Texas university, and stick to the norms,
as opposed to say NYC where diverse experiences are appreciated more.

~~~
quackquackgo
Yes, I've noticed if you have Texan culture in you, they welcome you with open
arms.

------
ryandrake
This thread is full of personal stories so I'll add mine. Writing software is
fun but burned out on doing it professionally for 10 years. Frustrated I was
just making my bosses rich and building their dreams not mine. Frustrated at
programming's long-term career trajectory (Nobody will hire you after 40).
Dreamed of doing my own thing but no capital to start a company. Went into
debt for an MBA, goal of getting into finance or somewhere without tech's
various career limitations and "ceilings." Graduated from highly ranked MBA
school. A month later Lehman and Bear explode and suddenly nobody is hiring
MBAs (oops!). Back to programming. Programming is still fun, but I continue to
just making my bosses rich. Moved into product management thinking it will be
different. Still no career trajectory. Moved into project management. Still no
career trajectory. Made it to 40 and still have a job but no capital to start
a company. Still figuring out what to do when I grow up.

Lesson learned I suppose is you can change your role, your industry, your
company, but it doesn't change the fact that you'll be stuck on the burnout
treadmill building someone else's dream.

~~~
marktangotango
> Frustrated at programming's long-term career trajectory (Nobody will hire
> you after 40).

Simply not true. At 40+ I'm making the highest salary of my career thus far,
and have no problem switching jobs. Had three offers last time I switched (8
months ago). I post this as a warning to anyone less experience reading this
thread and taking this as fact, when it is most certainly anecdotal.

~~~
JamesBarney
I'm just curious but do you have a specialty? And if so is it domain or
technical? Like the ruby guy, or the HIPPA guy etc..

~~~
marktangotango
Just Java and Spring, senior level, nothing special by any means.

------
toomuchtodo
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/](https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/)

I bring up /r/Entrepreneur because its about starting a business, not simply a
tech business that you'd get insight for on Hacker News. I bring up
/r/financialindependence because it'll help you reduce your burn rate and
increase your savings.

Getting your burn rate down is critical; The less money you need, the more
options you have for your future. The easiest dollar to make is the one you
didn't need to spend in the first place.

------
rwallace
I know of one guy who got burned out on corporate IT and opened a game store.
Several years later, each year being just as close to bankruptcy as the
previous, he realized it was the corporate BS he was burned out on, not
programming per se, and he would have been far better off looking for a
different way to earn money with his programming skills, but by that time it
was too late, he was too committed to the game store to switch.

I recommend taking a few weeks off to chill out, relax, get the corporate BS
out of your system, then think about less BS-intensive ways to earn money with
your skills. Even if you have to take a big pay cut, you'll probably take an
even bigger one switching professions at this stage.

~~~
charlesdm
I am absolutely incapable of working for most companies, because of corporate
bullshit. I much prefer being an entrepreneur, making money online / building
great products / dealing with customers. Occasional consulting is doable,
because you're usually dealing with decision makers, who cut through the
bullshit.

------
beagle3
I've known more than one person who tried something else and went back to
software. The unfortunate and not-so-easy-to-admit issue is that for many,
perhaps even the vast majority of, software engineers have (on a 10-15 years
forward looking basis) a global maximum of salary optimization in the software
field. Also, most of us have no idea how easy (except intellectually) our job
is compared to other jobs which are more demanding physically and emotionally.

On a 30-year forward looking basis, we appear to be fucked, though - the only
50-year old software guys I know are either self employed, or have been
working at the same place for 20 years. Even "stable" employees who only
switch jobs every 5 years have problem finding new jobs when they are older.

If you know of something else you'd rather be doing, and you are able to
support yourself[0], and have a reasonable 10 year horizon, by all means do.
But if there's nothing you are passionate about, then in all likelihood you
would be just as burned and make less just trying to run an alternative method
of income.

That said, I highly recommend reading Tim Ferris' "4 hour work week" book. Do
not treat it as gospel, but do follow the math - it will give you a good idea
(and possibly some inspiration) of where you need to be and possibly some
steps on the way to get there.

[0] but, be honest with yourself - if you make less, will you still be happy
enough outside of work? Many people aren't as happy once they find out what
they actually have to give up. Just give the difference to charity for a
couple of months to see how well _you_ manage.

~~~
gaius
_On a 30-year forward looking basis, we appear to be fucked, though - the only
50-year old software guys I know are either self employed, or have been
working at the same place for 20 years. Even "stable" employees who only
switch jobs every 5 years have problem finding new jobs when they are older._

Ageism is definitely a problem in software, but not in other specialized
fields, which suggests to me that it is fixable.

~~~
beagle3
> Ageism is definitely a problem in software, but not in other specialized
> fields, which suggests to me that it is fixable.

It will take decades to fix if ever, and the fixed state won't be
recognizable.

In my opinion, ageism in software exists mostly because it is a fashion
business, and (statistically speaking, and rather objectively), older people
are not as good at catering to the latest fashions. This also happens in the
real fashion business (that of clothes, makeup etc) and also in marketing and
advertising, and acting.

The fields in which ageism is not a problem are mostly regulated fields
(medicine, law, mechanical engineering), where someone can die or lose their
freedom as a result of malpractice. People in these fields often need to prove
they are up to date with recent methods and findings to keep their
certification. I, for one, would NOT like to have to prove competence with
hadoop or Angular (and then .NET WinForms, followed by WPF the following year,
followed by Node.js the next one) to not lose my license -- and if software
developers ARE licensed, the requirements will probable [d]evolve that way.

~~~
mattm
> It will take decades to fix if ever, and the fixed state won't be
> recognizable.

It will fix itself. Software became popular with the rise of the Internet
which didn't happen till the late 90's. If we assume people at that time were
in their mid-late 20's, then they would be in their mid-late 40's now.

Basically, there just isn't that many 50+ developers out there. In another
10-20 years there will be a lot more and older programmers will be much more
common and therefore won't be as out of place.

~~~
beagle3
I worked with 30 year old programmers 25 years ago. I worked with 30 year old
programmers 20 years ago. None of those guys are still coding. Some moved to
management, some to consulting (as in, real consulting). None that I'm in
touch with is still writing code.

There aren't as many 50 year old developers as younger ones, but there are
enough to see a pattern (and for things like the Google lawsuit age
discrimination lawsuit[0] - we'll have to wait and see how that works out).
Whether it will change when there are more 50 year old developers or not - my
bet is that it won't.

[0] [http://www.computerworld.com/article/3090087/it-
careers/goog...](http://www.computerworld.com/article/3090087/it-
careers/google-age-discrimination-lawsuit-may-become-monster.html)

------
tossaway23
I'm in a similar situation, with a few kinks: I'm in Europe (where skilled
developers are seen as prize cattle), did a few years of management (which
were OK) and made the horrible mistake of going into post-sales at a US
multinational.

My days are filled with e-mails, meetings with customers, PowerPoint decks and
discussions about product features, and even though I'm in what passes for a
senior "technical" position all people care about are sales quotas and bonus
targets and my manager is clearly incompetent to run a technical team - all he
cares about is making quota.

Lots of lip service towards customer satisfaction and ethical selling, but
mostly passing the buck onto other teams and partners.

I do get around a lot, which includes getting a lot of face time with
interesting people I might not otherwise have met if I'd stuck to a
development role and do a fair amount of cool demos (whenever I'm given enough
time to prepare) but the agony of not being able to build stuff and just
pushing prepackaged solutions onto a customer is driving me nuts.

Pay is OK (slightly less than what I made as a manager, but with a bigger,
utterly impossible to reach bonus), I get to work from home, free trips to the
HQ, etc. the tech is good enough, and improving. But what irks me is the
baseline, unspoken attitude of "sell and be done with it".

I'm respected for my technical skills outside the company but constantly
grilled about closing the sale (even when the customer doesn't want or need
what we sell - which is one of the current trendy things in our industry) so
I, for one, would very much like to go back to a development role.

Let this be a cautionary tale of sorts - sales might seem like an easy half-
way position towards something else, but there is more than one kind of
intellectual burnout.

------
greenspot
Getting out is possible but it's quite hard. Whatever you are going to do you
won't be able to reach your current income level in the long-term. These
opportunity costs and a general insecurity when doing new stuff will pull you
back to well paid and secure dev jobs very quickly.

Running your own business or getting into startups as a founder is an option
but you need to learn toms of new stuff, so it wont be easy either. Most
developers I know who went this path realized after few months that another
life isn't much easier and reverted to cushy dev jobs with free lunch and all
the perks you could imagine. _That 's_ the real problem, it is so easy and
tempting to get a well paid dev job. Why try hard if you get free crack around
the corner?

I still recommend to venture something new but make sure you have sufficient
financial resources and strong willpower to stay on track and not fall back to
your current profession. You will learn a lot and tremendously improve your
people skills.

------
SuperPaintMan
Adjusting your quality of life to the pay scale of the ideal job may be worth
it.

At least it could throw a smile on your face. My friend is a Engineer
(controlling trains and jazz) who quit after 40 years to work in a greenhouse
for 1/10th the pay. He doesn't live as well, and driving a used beater but he
smiles now and enjoys facing the day. Took him a few years to slowly dial down
his costs and ingrained habits though.

Consider as a method of last resort?

------
rbosinger
One thing to note: when talking to people in-real-life about what they do for
a living and how much they earn take everything with a grain of salt. I've had
beers with guys that said "dude.. I'm making sick money doing X" only to find
out later that "sick money" was $18/hour (in Canada). I've also had similar
conversations with other people and found out they meant 300k a year.

------
jiggliemon
\- Owner Operator Truck Driver \- Owner Operator Plumbing Business Owner
Operator Mobile Welding \- Owner Operator Concrete Pumping

It's relatively easy to make over $100k as an owner of a small business.

It's an order of magnitude more difficult to find a company that will pay you
a software engineers salary without a decade or so of experience in that field
and associated education.

------
rw
What part of tech are you in? Maybe you're burnt out on that niche's
particular subculture, not tech in general. For example:

Tired of 10-person startups? Move to a bigger company.

Tired by the constant churn in front-end libraries? Move down the stack and
work on server software.

~~~
mastazi
I tried that! It works well to a certain extent but, obviously, it's not
completely life-changing. I used to be a full-stack free-lance web-dev and
later I was involved in a startup. I was bothered by how difficult it is,
sometimes, to deal with non-technical people (clients, non-technical co-
founders, etc). I moved to a larger company where I am part of a team of
engineers and I have a boss who is a former software developer. We don't have
to deal directly with clients, other managers or final users. I feel much
happier now.

------
isuckatcoding
I am a very young developer (about a year and half out of college) so this
might be a naïve thought. Isn't 15 years quite a long tenure for software
development? I thought after 5-10 years you move into product/project
management or something higher.

I mean I realize everyone is different but still. Being the inexperienced
programmer I am right now I imagine myself happily coding until I am 50 (lol
ask me in 15 years if I feel the same way)

~~~
sp527
I have about 3 years of industry experience, but it's been enough to teach me
one very valuable lesson: don't transition entirely out of software
engineering until you have some reasonable assurance of personal/financial
security.

I once transitioned into a more client-oriented role for a brief time and was
almost immediately scrambling to claw my way back out for a handful of
reasons: (1) the value I was creating became nebulous and hard to define
compared to before, (2) I lost the insane value-creation lever that software
engineering enables, and (3) things became considerably less deterministic in
general.

You really don't need to look any further than the various high-profile
executive flameouts of seemingly intelligent people with strong engineering
track records (e.g. Marissa Mayer) to understand the problem. You could even
be a great manager/salesperson/product designer and _still_ fail because so
much is out of your control. I saw this play out repeatedly amongst the
various managers and executives at my previous company.

So if you're going to take the risk of escalating beyond the role of an
individual contributor, make sure you have a parachute.

------
Bar_Code
You're in tech, so an experience you have that is over 5 years is largely
useless. What you need to leverage is your wisdom gained from the 15 years of
experience. Wisdom is what separates you from someone with "only" 5 years of
experience, but who can code almost as good as you and work for less. So no,
there is no respect for experience beyond a number of years.

I've been in tech for over 25 years and I am more engaged than ever in what I
am doing. I've been a programmer (front and back end), sysadmin, dba, network
engineer, project manager, and product manager. Looking back, through all of
that learning, I was becoming a better leader. About 3 years ago I stopped
coding and became a full time leader in tech. I now optimize people and teams,
not code and systems.

I'm still very much involved in architecting systems, which is where wisdom
comes in. If I can't guide them in how to build something, chances are I can
provide equal value in telling them how NOT to build something.

I would advise pursuing a role where you can impart your wisdom and leverage
your many years of experience to help others and make an impact that way.

~~~
kzisme
Should there ever be a fear of being stuck with one technology, or language
while at a job (or in a career?)

Currently I write .NET but I don't know if that would be the most interesting
career to ~only~ write .NET (I'm a recent grad)

~~~
Bar_Code
I think you should be afraid of only knowing one technology/language. You
should strive to at least play with one new technology/language per year.
"language" can be flexible, like CSS, SQL, HTML. It doesn't have to be things
like Go, Erlang, or Haskel. It would be nice to be at a company that
encourages that. Even if you just know why people like certain languages, that
would be helpful.

------
summarite
The one lesson you should probably take from the comments here is that your
should take a look at what you enjoy and how you might be able to make a
living off it. If your main condition is a big salary and life in a big city,
well the consultant world awaits, but it's also not as easy as many here make
it sound.

Else, just be honest and see what you really like. A friend of a friend lives
somewhere on the African coast and deals in shells. Locals sell them to him,
he sells them on to traders abroad. He surely doesn't make 100k, but the
change of location and lifestyle also means he doesn't need to.

So: think out of the box. Just make it a new life.

------
anupshinde
>"No respect for experience"

I felt the same for few years. It takes getting used to

> "How to successfully get out of tech?"

Probably not get out of it, but move away from this role. Delegate, delegate
and delegate. If consulting, take a huge pay cut for sometime. It is harder in
the beginning, especially with that much experience and/or being an expert.
But it is easier to "earn time" and probably respect by that way.

People, and mostly experts, sometimes say "I don't want to get into
management". They like what they do and I can totally understand why. However,
when they do not delegate and not teach a team how to do great things - they
also end up doing a huge disservice to the industry. As a result, we have so
many idiotic management guys who just shouldn't exist in the industry

Optionally, Banking and Finance is one industry where you might be able to get
in and may be grow easily because of your tech experience. But you will
definitely feel burned out and might be working 16-18 hours a day including
weekends. After a few years you just know some things - like writing a for
loop. You have to keep learning and exploring, but the basic framework doesn't
change.

Medical school - It takes a lot of time to just learn and then you will be
working for 12-15 hours. And the life you live isn't really independent as you
might think. Docs make a really good living. You do have to learn new stuff,
but its not like learning a new living organism every year (compare to
language/frameworks). And experience is valued.

Law - same thing, good lawyers have to work a lot. And they make a huge
living, 100K might be peanuts. Experience is valued.

------
baccheion
Yes, start a company or create an app (or several apps) that will pull in
enough revenue to keep you going. This is either doable, or not really
possible at all, so it should be obvious which situation you're in.

Also, meditate, listen to brainwave entrainment, maybe spend some time in a
sensory deprivation tank, research DXM reset (6.4mg DXM per kg of body
weight-- at most once every 2 weeks), then start taking N-Acetyl Semax and
N-Acetyl Selank (both administered via a nasal spray). Also, you can research
NSI-189, Deprenyl, and Cerebrolysin.

If you are burnt out due to lack of ability to do the job you'd like to do,
rather than being tired of programming, then the best bet is to find a company
you match well with (glassdoor, paysa, and comparably should help make this
happen) or (as said above) create your own.

What else are you interested in, made curious by, or passionate about? If you
can figure out what those things are, then you can look into their viability
as a career or business.

~~~
ZeroFries
Do you have any links for DXM reset? Is that similar to ketamine for
depression? Interested in your burn-out reversal protocol.

~~~
baccheion
Yes, it affects the NMDA receptors similar to Ketamine, though it's "safer"
(when taken properly). Just search for DXM online. You can also read articles
posted to Erowid. Another alternative is Memantine, but DXM also acts as a
sort of SSRI and affects the mu-sigma opioid receptors, so for this one-off-
once-every-2-weeks use it's more appropriate.

You can also research options like combining it with Phenibut (1-2g split
across 2 servings the day and night before, as it can become addictive or
problematic if used too often (more than 1-2x/week) or in high quantities
(more than 1-2g/day)), 5-HTP, Melatonin, fasoracetam, etc.

------
scythe
Oh, count me in. Any way out would be nice.

Can't believe I let anyone talk me into coding for a living.

------
stephengillie
What other skills do you have? What else can you do that's equally valued by
society?

------
beagle3
I hear you, and hope you can find something that works for you. A cousin of
mine, an aeronautic engineer, went on to become a patent agent
(editor/writer/evaluator) at a big patent firm. He needed to do some legal
training, but it was less than a year -- not a full law degree. He couldn't be
happier - he is paid to read and be up-to-date on a lot of interesting stuff,
has conversations with interesting people all day and (at least in his firm),
has a job that is as 9 to 5 as he wants it to be, no pressure, no crunch time,
etc.

The down side is that patents are evil.

> And no respect for experience, unless you demonstrate on a whiteboard with
> your implementation of a sorted bubble tree list.

I will be a dissenter here: I have interviewed people with 20 years of
experience, and who have shipped products, who had gross misunderstanding
about the tech stacks they are using -- to the point of taking multiple (2x -
10x) times of both implementation and resources than a reasonable solution --
just reasonable, not compared to an "optimized" (for resources) or "quick and
dirty throwaway" (for time) solution. And most of the times, these people were
oblivious to their (lack) of knowledge or understanding.

Your post reminded me of a specific interview, someone with 20 years of
experience, who's answer to a question (essentially, a database join, which
could have been done inside the select but wasn't), which was an O(n^3). Would
have worked reasonably well even on an n=1000 table, but our table had
n=10,000,000, and this was specified in the requirements. After grilling him a
bit about runtime estimates (to which his basic answer "who cares? computers
are fast enough nowadays"), he did acknowledge that as written it would take
forever, but then added "But it doesn't matter, the compiler will optimize
this anyway to the best possible O(n) solution, and it will be fast". This was
about a C loop, in 2005.

I thanked they guy and declined his job application. I am sure his takeaway
was that I was a snotty employer who only wants sorted bubble tree lists and
arcane academic stuff, and that I couldn't appreciate him shipping products
for 20 years. But had I taken him on our team, I am quite sure it would have
been a failure: At that place, we had a successful fire-and-almost-forget
shipping culture, which required doing back-of-the-envelope runtime estimates
(among other things) to make sure things actually satisfy requirements -- and
his attitude did not fit.

Another similar "20 year experience" story from a friend of mine who worked on
a system running a moderately sized financial exchange: In small scale tests
everything worked perfectly well, but once real load testing started, it was
clear that it can sustain less than 10% of the existing load. (This was a 2nd-
generation system, which was to take over existing trading). All measurements
pointed to hard drives being the culprit, and a $50,000 SSD (whopping 10GB
capacity, IIRC - this was 2002) was bought, and was able to _just_ get the
existing load working, with very little room for increased capacity.

At this point, my friend was assigned to review that the solution was properly
implemented, and he discovered to his horror, that one of the 20-year-
experience authors was unable to figure out how to do a "sprintf()" with
unknown-in-advance result size, so he instead created a temporary file, used
"fprintf" into it, allocated the memory according to the resulting size, read
the data, and deleted the file. Changing this to an snprintf-and-if-failed-
reallocate-buffer-and-retry scheme sped the system up some 20x (compared to
the SSD!), and made the SSD redundant. The original guy's response when shown
the solution was IIRC, basically a dismissive "oh, yeah - I guess I should
have known about snprintf, it wasn't there when I learned C, of course the SSD
was the right solution given the constraints".

I'm not saying experience is useless, but it is an appeal to authority, which
most of us (especially here on HN) dislike when we are expected to revere it.
If one can't show competence without referring to (vague, abstract, generally
unverifiable[0]) experience, then perhaps one is not as qualified for a job as
one thinks.

Just to clarify: This is not personally directed at OP - in fact, the vibe I
get is that OP can easily pass sorted bubble tree list interviews and just got
tired of it.

However, I'm just pointing out that anecdatally, I've seen too many
"experienced" developers who are oblivious to the costs/benefits of employing
them, to the point that I completely disagree with the prevailing (even on HN)
sentiment that experienced developers shouldn't need to do the kind of
interviews that junior devs do.

[0] Being a member of a team that did well is not, on its own, proof of
anything. the dailywtf is full of "Paula"s and others who have spend months --
even years -- on teams that shipped, and the real world is too.

~~~
menssen
There are two sides to this. That story from a few months back about the guy
who wrote homebrew getting denied a job at Google because he flubbed some
particular algorithm on a whiteboard is pretty messed up. On the other hand, I
agree with you that experience tends not to be a particularly accurate
predictor of actual skill, and that white board algorithm implementations are
at worst a good faith effort to solve the problem of interviewing for
competence.

~~~
beagle3
I didn't follow the Max Howell / homebrew story when it originally appeared,
but reading about it now from a year's distance, this[0] seems like the best
summary (the other quora answers are also illuminating, as is the HN
discussion from the time).

Regardless, assuming Howell's original narrative ("you couldn't invert a
binary tree so goodbye") is the truth, I still don't see why this is "pretty
messed up". It's not the olympics where the scoring system is repeatable,
objective and well known, or court where lives and livelihood are irreversibly
changed".

It's an employer, one of many, who decided -- for whatever reasons, which
might have been the tree inversion failure -- to not hire Mr. Howell. There's
Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, IBM if he wants to work for bigcorp.
There's thousands of smaller companies. If someone else hires him, fine; If no
one does than the narrative is obviously untrue.

[0] [https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-
rejectin...](https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejecting-
Max-Howell-the-author-of-Homebrew-for-not-being-able-to-invert-a-binary-
tree/answer/Joseph-Janos-1)

------
kevindeasis
I can't believe no one has mentioned opening up a retail, foodchain (not a
restaurant), coffeeshop or franchising. If you open one of these in a good
location you can make really really good coin. It's crazy how much money
coffee shops in my campus makes. There are more than 20 coffee shops in a 1km
radius and they are all making insane profits for a medium size campus.

~~~
gaius
How much of that is paid in rent tho'? Classic landlord tactic, get a business
in, if it's a success capture all of its profit, if it goes bust get another
one.

As with all things, if it was easy everyone would be doing it...

~~~
kevindeasis
Including the business outside the campus are around 100k-5million after rent.
I have not seen any landlord doing what you've mentioned.

~~~
vancouverwill
Those sound like good figures. How are you getting those numbers? Estimations
or have you managed to speak to there book keepers. I always won D we about
coffee shops, they seem to be popular but I wonder how much profit is actually
made.

------
ta11235
+1000 - any ideas? Stories of successful escapes?

------
jitix
Have you considered moving to a better area of tech? Some of the new things
being done with AI, Learning and Automation are pretty cool and might provide
more excitement that your current job (since you didnt specify I assumed that
you're in general product/solution development field)

~~~
timr
I have been programming for longer than the OP, I have an advanced degree, and
I can assure you: unless you have research-level skills in these areas, they
will fall out of fashion and you will be stranded in a niche. Even if you do
have PhD-level training, you'll still be in that niche...you just might be
able to survive when the pond dries up again.

I know it doesn't seem like it to folks who haven't been around for long, but
AI and ML is a fad, currently at Peak Hype. There will continue to be AI
researchers in a decade, but they will be the people who are in it for the
long term. The magpies who are currently swarming into the field will flitter
away when the Next Big Thing comes along.

I point this out only because the OP specifically mentions how the treadmill
of constant learning leaves you in place in this industry...and this is a
great example of how it happens. If you spend your life chasing every five-
year fad cycle in tech, hoping for continued relevance, you'll burn out.
Moreover, you'll always be at a competitive disadvantage to the 20-something
new grad who knows the new shiny as well as you do, and works for praise and
pizza.

If you want to specialize, then really specialize. But be prepared to devote a
big chunk of your life to it.

~~~
kevindeasis
I've been looking for someone with this perspective. Do you think it is just
AI and ML? Do you feel the same way about data scientists, data analyst (not
actuary,statisticians,mathematicians, etc)?

What other domains do you recommend instead?

~~~
timr
If you are new, I recommend that you pick a discipline with long-term proven
value, and go as deep as you can into it. If you have a bit more experience,
pick a second discipline, and define yourself as the specialist in X-meets-Y.
Just don't be a magpie: make a choice, and stick to it. This is the hard part,
because it will be excruciatingly tempting to follow all of the other magpies
to the new field when they leave.

As for your other question: no, it isn't just AI. Right now, the "javascript
engineer", "mobile developer" and "data scientist" are all magical creatures
of the Unicorn Land. I can't predict what comes next, but I can confidently
predict that none of these things will be as hot in a decade, because they're
all just the latest variations on broader themes.

That said, there are often actual disciplines beneath these trends. For
example, "data science" is practically the definition of a magpie fad:
_science_ has always depended upon data, so putting "data" in front of the
term is an indication of (fairly thoughtless) trend-chasing. But actuaries,
analysts, scientists and statisticians have been around for decades, and will
continue to exist long after the last 20-something "senior data scientist" has
closed his Jupyter notebook for good. Specialize in those things, instead, and
call yourself whatever goofy thing you need to say on a resume to get hired.

Any reasonably intelligent kid can pick up a data analysis tool in months, but
it still takes decades for that kid to become an expert statistician. Prefer
the latter.

~~~
uola
While they might not realized, many programmers will already specialized in
software development. Meaning their career will take them to technical lead,
project manager, software architect etc. and not "number crunching".

~~~
timr
That can be a valid specialization, but the bar is higher than most people
realize. If you're going to be a specialist in software development, it isn't
enough to merely work at a company or three and advance through the ranks. You
have to become so skilled at the _process_ of software creation that your
knowledge is recognized as universally relevant. You have to be in the top
percentile(s) of people who do what you do.

It's the difference between being a middle manager at a tech company and
being, say, Rob Pike or Jeff Dean. (Maybe that bar is set a bit too high, but
hopefully you get the idea.)

------
SoulMan
> unless you demonstrate on a whiteboard with your implementation of a sorted
> bubble tree list

True ! But I wonder is that criteria for all the tech companies ? I know its a
must do criteria big companies like Amazon and Google.

------
test_pilot
Teaching is one way to get out, but probably won't make big money.

------
thefastlane
i have similar concerns about the industry; programming, frankly, sucks in
terms of career trajectory and i have pondered what the next phase might look
like for me.

------
bsamuels
maybe become a commercial airline pilot? won't make you a living wage in the
valley but you can live well virtually anywhere else

plus you get to fly planes which is cool

~~~
Animats
Miserable job today. Start at $28K a year.[1] That's for experienced pilots
with 1500 hours. Start by being on reserve, which means you're on 2-hour call
for when they need someone.

An SF Muni bus driver is better paid.

It's one of those jobs which, like "game developer" or "actor", attracts
people who really want to be in the business, even though the job sucks.

[1] [http://www.skywest.com/skywest-airline-jobs/career-
guides/fl...](http://www.skywest.com/skywest-airline-jobs/career-
guides/flight-jobs/#/payscale)

~~~
gaius
A senior captain at BA makes a very good living, but they got in when it _was_
a lucrative field and their union locked the benefits in. Nowadays without
seniority in a union, you have nothing.

------
sevenpuddings
I'd also like more opinions and stories on this topic. My story is somewhat
similar, started programming at a very early age, then worked professionally
since 13 non-stop (first job writing credit card processing apps). Post-
university, I've been in the industry for 15+ years as well. Excuse the rant
that follows, but hopefully it will get others to chime in.

In University, I made an initial attempt to get out of the industry as I
already lost my passion for it, so I majored in Statistics, Finance,
Management Science, and did Computer Engineering as a safety. I had to pay for
school somehow, so I also worked proper software engineering jobs while in
school. Once I graduated, my father passed away a few days after and I was
stuck knowing I'd never get any financial support, so I continued in the
industry, always wanting to move out at some point. The familial
responsibility, stress, company loyalty, etc. prevented me from ever getting
out.

I've been checking all the job ads every few weeks, for years to find an
alternative career. And of course I mean "all" types of jobs, not just
tangential tech jobs. Currently taking some time off to recover from burnout
by tired of dipping into my savings and ready to go back to work for various
reasons. It's just sad because on a mental and emotional level, returning to a
programming job depresses the hell out of me and I am not sure what else there
is for me approaching 40. I worked on my own startup a bit and it was going
well, but I struggled to find a reputable and competent partner, and the
thought of doing it on my own and not pulling in a regular income for another
year seems too much for now, so at the very least I need to work on my project
on the side until something changes.

I've come to the point where I really hate computers, but I feel at this age
it gets harder and harder to do something different. Sometimes I would rather
just do something more simple, productive, and real. I worked in many
different parts of the industry already and I've touched just about every
major language there is, worked for startups, consulting, you name it. I've
done sales engineering, team lead, project management, etc., but usually my
dev skills would take the forefront and regardless of my job description
because of necessity - lack of staff (ex: startups/wearing many hats),
mistakes of others, being the most senior person skills/experience wise, and
so on.

Programming only feels hard at this point because of awful colleagues,
unreasonable deadlines/circumstances, and technical debt usually created by
others. Just about every company's product bores me and most I wonder who
needs what they make and why, and I get tired of the typical dysfunction and
ridiculous "culture" be it brogrammers or overly enthusiastic corporate
nonsense. I try to swallow my pride and be professional about it all, but I
find myself secretly hating everyone and everything at most workplaces. I'm
tired of working tons of unpaid overtime for silly reasons and likewise I
don't want to work somewhere where the job/company is a joke.

I'd love to just do something "normal." I can't envision working in tech at 60
or being able to retire early either for various reasons. I can empathize
because it's tough, especially when you get used to a salary and lifestyle.
Lived overseas and had a much simpler life for a bit, but in the end it gets
to be the same grind on a different scale, so I suppose it's more about the
job than the pay. In the US though it's harder to make ends meet if your pay
is very low, so I'm looking for something in-between at least.

Thought about teaching, but they make it very hard for many reasons to break
into when you're older and I'm not sure I feel like grabbing a master's in
education just to slash my salary dramatically. Private schools are an option
of course, but much less stable in terms of long-term prospects, just seen too
many friends in that world struggle long-term.

Anyway, I think for most people who are past early 30s, starting your own
business is logical. The question is what, how, and with what capital
depending on the business. Easier said than done.

~~~
Zelmor
Why not start a vendor company? Based on the tech stack you know, you can
recruit competent people and sell them as business analysts or consultants for
a lot of money. They earn well, you earn just as well. That's the kind of
thing I'm currently in. Boss-men were two devs some 15 years ago, threw arms
in the air in a 'fuck i quit' moment. Started consulting to their previously
built business connections, then recruited people one by one for the different
job opportunities that were vacant at their clients.

~~~
sevenpuddings
I worked in consulting and vowed to never go back. I suppose my clients would
vouch for me but it's been a long time. I also lived overseas so really lost
contact with lots of people for extended period of times. Let that be a lesson
to the younger.

I suppose picking the right niche it can be better than your average small
business custom dev consulting gig or something similar. I'm just so over the
tech industry bs. I worked for Microsoft and some other names at times, and I
fully admit those experiences can easily make one bitter. I'm trying to be
positive and find light in it all, but it gets harder with each passing year.

In any case, thanks. I've had similar thoughts and wanted to find at least one
person to partner with, but can't think of anyone interested I trust. Too many
of the good people I've worked with are wife/husband kids people and don't
want to take on the risk of their own business. One day though.

