
The rise of OpenStreetMap: A quest to conquer Google’s mapping empire - Vik1ng
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/02/28/openstreetmap/1/
======
4ad
FWIW, where I live and where I travel OSM maps are much better than Google
Maps. Google Maps just lack the data.

OSM:
[http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.2509/16.2533](http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.2509/16.2533)

Google Maps:
[https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q...](https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=48.256541,+16.269420&aq=&sll=48.256641,16.269164&sspn=0.00705,0.009634&vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&ll=48.25717,16.264787&spn=0.014101,0.019269&t=m&z=16&iwloc=A)

~~~
hawkharris
If you live in an area where Google Maps is lacking, you can take the
initiative to improve them — no coding required!

Most people think that Google Maps is based only on camera-equipped vehicles
and satellite imagery. In fact, the service relies heavily on crowdsourcing.

People who live in remote regions can use Google Maps' community tools to
describe how roads, trails, etc., have changed. For example, when the post
office in my small town moved, I edited Google Maps to reflect that change.
You can also change the position of roads, trails and other geographic
elements.

~~~
unfamiliar
Why should I donate my time and effort to improving a proprietary service?

~~~
hawkharris
For your own benefit.

Millions of people regularly improve Google Maps because doing so makes it
easier for them to commute and find local resources.

~~~
javajosh
Right. Now go back to 1994 and s/Google Maps/CDDB/g [1]

The lesson was clear: you contribute to proprietary databases at your great
peril. People access Google Maps at the whim of Google. They could decide
tomorrow to deny access, and you'd have no say in the matter.

So, contribute to Open Street Maps instead!

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDDB](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDDB)

~~~
hawkharris
I enjoy HN and have lots of respect for this community, but there's a strong
contradiction in the way we discuss I.P.

On one hand, we're a community of people who found and contribute to software
businesses. Most of these companies depend on selling intellectual property in
the form of code and data.

Yet, as makers or hackers, some of us despise the companies that attempt to
profit from selling I.P. We expect that all components of software be free for
us to tinker with and repurpose.

"Well...wait a minute," one might say, "There doesn't have to be a dichotomy
between totally closed and totally open."

Exactly! That's precisely what Google is trying to achieve with its mapping
initiative. The firm is investing heavily in community tools (not to mention
SDKs for developers) that give us an opportunity to participate: posting,
querying and modifying data.

Being both entrepreneurs and makers, we should be a little more realistic
about our relationship with IP. You can't always have your cake and eat it,
too.

~~~
rakoo
> We expect that all components of software be free for us to tinker with and
> repurpose.

OSM, along with its cousins-in-spirit projects Wikipedia and Libre Software
are not about hacking on software. They are about building a society.

A society where no one _has_ to depend on someone else. A society where
_everyone_ can learn and share with its co-citizens.

The number one foundation for building this society is that data be:

* accessible without needing explicit authorization,

* modifiable without needing explicit authorization,

* shareable with anyone without needing explicit authorization

in short, what the Free Software definition [0] does for software, but
generalized to knowledge (for Wikipedia) or geographical position (for OSM).

By using and (worse !) contributing to Google Maps, you don't build this
society. You trust Google to do it; but that's not the reason why Google
exists, so you can't be sure about that. Plus, if you recall not-so-old
history, you must remember how easy it is for Google to unplug applications
even if they are used.

Google is giving you great, shiny toys to play with. But you can only build
the present with them. I'd rather trust the future in a Foundation than in a
company whose goal is to make money.

[0] [https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-
sw.html](https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html)

~~~
toomuchtodo
If you had to wrap projects together like Wikipedia, OSM, etc (open data sets
that you could argue are the foundation of society), what would you call the
collection?

~~~
pirateking
Modern Civilization.

------
beering
One thing us hackers should be especially aware of is that it is a _violation_
of the free Google Maps API terms of service to embed Google Maps in anything
that makes money.

Read that again. If you make a classifieds website but charge businesses to
list, it's a violation of the free Maps API TOS and you need to purchase an
Enterprise license. Enterprise licenses start at 5 figures/annum for low-
volume usage.

This is not some abstract ideological nitpick. Google has ramped up its
attempts to monetize Maps ever since they introduced quotas a couple years
back, and they are actively pursuing businesses to force them to buy an
Enterprise license. So there is a very real risk that you could be targeted if
you embed Google Maps, especially if your website gets big. This is no doubt
one reason why companies like Foursquare, Craigslist, etc. use OpenStreetMap
rather than Google Maps.

~~~
chrisbroadfoot
Hi,

I work on the Google Maps API team. I am not a lawyer, but my reading of the
terms does not equate with yours.

Here's the excerpt:

    
    
          (a) Free Access (No Fees). Your Maps API Implementation must
          be generally accessible to users without charge and must
          not require a fee-based subscription or other fee-based
          restricted access. This rule applies to Your Content
          and any other content in your Maps API Implementation,
          whether Your Content or the other content is in
          existence now or is added later.
    

My reading is that in your example, charging businesses to list is okay, but
charging users to access the site is not.

[https://developers.google.com/maps/terms#section_9_1](https://developers.google.com/maps/terms#section_9_1)

~~~
mslider
You are not a lawyer, sure, but you are also, apparently, not Google's
"compliance team". Section 10.1.2 says you can't charge _anyone_ a fee for the
"implementation". What is the "implementation" and what isn't? You might have
one answer. Someone else in the company might have another. That's typical of
big companies, where not everyone may enforce policies different, but still
pretty scary for anyone who falls in this gray area.

------
huskyr
One thing where OSM really shines is the ability to downloaded maps for
offline use. When i was travelling in South East Asia for two months i had an
iPhone with an app that allowed me to download a part of any OSM map. Because
every hotel had Wi-Fi access i just downloaded the parts where i was
travelling and used that instead of finding a local SIM card. Even in pretty
remote parts the maps were usually good, and in some cases they were even
better than the Google Maps equivalent (e.g. Laos).

~~~
nolok
FYI on android's Google Maps I've been able to do that for at least a year and
a half, and it works great for me (I used it extensively in SEA too,
coincidentally). Not sure if it's available on iOS's version.

~~~
4ad
It's incomparable. Google Maps only caches around 10km x 10km, and in offline
mode search and routing doesn't work. Also, in Google Maps it's impossible to
tell if/what is cached and what not.

OSM maps can be for any area, and applications do provide search, including
POI search and routing.

~~~
greggman
Does OSM have bike paths? Does it have bus routes, train schedules? Can it
tell you the route to take to get from point A to point B on public transit?
Does it know about current closures? Does it search based on info other than
address?

I ask because I've been using Google Maps to travel and those features have
been invaluable. An offline map is usually missing those features. The
schedules are not up to date and searching by context requires data not
usually part of map data.

~~~
Vik1ng
> Does OSM have bike paths?

[http://www.opencyclemap.org/](http://www.opencyclemap.org/)

> Does it have bus routes, train schedules?

[http://www.öpnvkarte.de/](http://www.öpnvkarte.de/)

It has the routes, but no it does not have train schedules. Why? Because
OpenStreetMap is just a basic map. It is not supposed to have such
information. Someone has to write an app that uses the OSM data and then add
the schedules.

For example:
[http://fahrinfo.vbb.de/bin/help.exe/dn?L=vs_mobilitymap&tpl=...](http://fahrinfo.vbb.de/bin/help.exe/dn?L=vs_mobilitymap&tpl=fullmap&tabApp=show)
(enable checkboxes on the right) \- OSM Map Data combined with data from the
transport assoziation

Btw. I guess you are from the US? Because good luck finding those schedules in
Google Maps outside the US. Germany for example only has trains. No Buse and
Tram data.

~~~
jpravetz
Unfortunately, for off road, even though the classification of whether bikes
are allowed on a trail can be input, I haven't seen any viewers that show this
information. I find it difficult to determine the trail type (single/double
track), condition (dirt, pavement), and whether bikes are allowed.

~~~
rmc
OSM has classification schemes for tagging mountain bike routes
[http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mountainbike](http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mountainbike)

This might be of interest to you
[http://openmtbmap.org/](http://openmtbmap.org/)

------
fidotron
I find myself increasingly leaning towards OpenStreetMap due to the utterly
infuriating changes in the Google Maps interfaces, and that's even knowing the
GM privacy issues.

OSM has definite holes in the data, but that's fixable, yet also suffers from
a too much information by default situation for their standard
representations. The map data is there, but the resulting maps just aren't
quite as good, though I'm sure someone will use it to get there.

~~~
Estragon

      > utterly infuriating changes in the Google Maps interfaces
    

Anyone know what Google's plan is here? I've stopped using Google Maps on my
phone for the same reason. Doesn't seem like a win for them.

~~~
colmvp
Strange, I haven't had a problem using their app on the iPhone.

------
eevilspock
I hope this movement toward community owned not-for-profit internet
_utilities_ is a trend, not just mapping but also for search and social
networking. These functions are so key to the user and give so much power to
whoever operates them they belong in the hands of the community. There is too
much conflict of interest when in the hands of Google, Apple, Facebook or the
like.

------
ljoshua
I'm using OSM data in a fun little app I'm building (mapping out the tunnels
in downtown Houston, TX) and I've been very impressed by the tooling.
Everything from the OSM site and editors themselves, to related tools like
MapBox, Leaflet.js, TileMill, etc.

There are some very beautiful and functional geo-related products out there,
and OSM works amazingly well in all of them.

~~~
jamiek88
I've been looking for a Houston tunnels app.

That would be a very useful app! I love hyper local app ideas.

Lots of people have asked me for a good Houston tunnel app as I seem to be the
'tech guy' amongst our circle.

iOS or Android? I could help publicise this app and help beta test if you
like? I'm iOS only but have access to borrow an android phone if need be.

How are you handling movement and position checking with no GPS ping? Wifi
location?

~~~
ljoshua
Glad to know there's interest in it! I'm making it primarily because _I_ need
it--not easy to find what you need down there. I was always surprised there
wasn't one yet, so I decided to make it as a fun side project.

Both iOS and Android. I'd love beta testers, you can get a hold of me through
my bio.

------
stugrey
For those looking to get hacking quickly on the osm data I would highly
recommend osm2pgsql

[http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql](http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql)

It sets up and imports OSM data into a postGIS-enabled PostgreSQL database.
From there you can use TileMill to create whatever type of map you fancy or
just access the raw data.

------
ancarda
Can anybody recommend a good OSM-based maps app for iOS? Currently I'm using
Apple maps as it offers a great user experience. It's extremely fast, fluid
and has turn-by-turn directions. Unfortunately the data is sub-par for my
area.

I've tried Google Maps' latest version and it feels laggy; When I zoom in it
seems to jump to an image at the end of the animation. Nobody is getting
vector maps right except for Apple. I wish it could just use OSM for the data.

Bonus points if the app can download maps.

~~~
aw3c2
Try [http://mapswith.me/](http://mapswith.me/)

~~~
ancarda
I downloaded some maps but panning / zooming results in the map flashing while
it's displaying the next tile. As I said, I use Apple maps _because_ it has a
great user experience. This has the same issue Google maps has.

------
danpalmer
Google Maps is a great product. OpenStreetMap is a great dataset.

Google clearly know how to make their data support features they want in apps.
They have been known to use computer vision techniques to read street signs in
order to work out the logic of junctions, just so that they can do better
route finding.

OpenStreetMap on the other hand focuses on just having a huge amount of data.
Their online editing is much more discoverable, and as a result their data is
often better. There's someone at my university who has an interest in it, and
consequently, the main campus is modelled perfectly down to the level of
individual trees being correctly placed.

------
FigBug
Does anybody know of open source vector rendering engine for OSM that I could
incorporate into an iOS app? I'd like to get away from using tiles.

~~~
Doctor_Fegg
Try
[https://github.com/beelsebob/OpenStreetPad](https://github.com/beelsebob/OpenStreetPad).
It's abandonware (the author got hired) but functional as it is.

------
gjkood
Just recently evaluated Google Maps, MapQuest, OpenStreetMaps, MapBox for a
client project. I tried to locate a home address among a tract of addresses in
a busy part of Northern Virginia. Only Google Maps and MapQuest could map the
address. As long as there isn't some sort of comprehensive address data for
valid US addresses, I would hesitate to use it or recommend it for any
business applications.

I understand OpenStreetMap is crowdsourced but there are commercial vendors
such as MapBox that rely on that data. I couldn't use those resellers either
unless they had other sources of address data.

~~~
Trufa
Hi, I'm working on an application that need to do Geocoding, and it's a
problem that's definitely not solved.

We've tried countless solutions but hadn't found any satisfying one until now.
We cannot (and will not) use Google's geocoder becuse we wont put the
information on a google map (part of their TOS).

We recently tried decarta and seems to be working really really good!
[http://decarta.com/](http://decarta.com/) Unfortunately some house numbers
are missing, but still, the quality is pretty high!

(I dont have any affiliation with them, we're just a customer now.)

Also, I would like to bash yahoo placefinder! It's realatively decent in
finding addresses, but, but, but! The pricing is very high, the documentation
ludicrous, customer service/forums nonexistent and you'll get terrible uptime,
from now once a day or two, you'll just get mysterious 503 for which the
official answer seems to be wait for a while, and hopefully it will fix
itself, Just effing great!

~~~
gjkood
We are leaning towards MapQuest because their pricing was much better than
Google Maps for the kind of volume that our client was looking at.

We had to go with the business license approach because of the TOS involved.

BTW, MapQuest does have a "Community License" which unfortunately for us was
using data from OpenStreetMaps and not the data behind its commercial product.

------
lettergram
This seems to me to be something of a hipster argument. I use Google Maps (1)
because it is usually better than the competition, (2) it usually integrates
well with everything I have, and (3) Doesn't show me a bunch of useless
information (such as walking paths).

Basically, Google Maps works better than OpenStreetMap from what I've seen (I
tried using OSM, but it was hard to tell what things were being clustered and
what not).

~~~
maxerickson
What does "hipster argument" mean?

I'm surprised at how quickly people advocating for OSM make the comparisons to
Google maps. The user facing stuff at openstreetmap.org isn't comparable to
maps.google.com or the various Google apps.

But OpenStreetMap isn't just the tiles you see at osm.org, it is a data
product that you can adapt to whatever you need, for the simple price of
attribution. And while the data is not complete, the global coverage is
increasingly reasonable.

------
fernly
The search function is not impressive. I put in the address of a hotel that I
know exists (I have a reservation): "Finnegårdsgaten 2A, 2003 Bergen, Norway".
It says "no results found". In the map window I have the OSM map of Bergen
displayed with Finnegårdsgaten in the center (not as the result of the search)
so I know the street is in the data.

Open GMaps, enter the same address, it instantly displays it plus on the left,
a Street View of the building front, and links for three crucially useful
things that OSM doesn't appear to have: Directions, Search nearby, and Save to
[my] maps. I use all three of these features heavily when planning a trip.

Bottom line: they may have the map data (the Bergen data looks pretty much the
same, modulo the different graphic styles) but they lack a lot in the features
built on it.

------
zmanian
I saw a Bing street view car recently in SF Bay Area. It was the weirdest
thing.

------
milliams
I had already posted this at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7318970](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7318970)

------
ChuckMcM
I hope they are successful, especially with the most recent update to Google
Maps which is pretty poor in my opinion.

That said, its extremely difficult to do really good maps over a wide area.
Having seen, from the inside, some of the stuff Google went through to get the
'truth' about what is on the ground, and continues to do, its quite an intense
undertaking.

------
josteink
This is badly needed. Mapping is one of those areas where I still have to rely
on Google, even though I really try to exit their services. The _internet_
needs more of its core services being based on open services and open data.

Last time I tried OSM, I had a very bad experience, but looking at Locus (as
recommended elsewhere in this thread) things are definitely looking better.

~~~
Vik1ng
Consider contributing yourself. If everybody would just add his house with his
address and make sure the street is there and maybe some houses around you
that would already help a lot.

------
acabal
Google Maps' killer feature for me is getting directions for public transport.
Finding out how to get from point A to point B using buses and subways is
invaluable. It doesn't seem like any Android OSM client has that yet... too
bad. I would much rather use OSM.

------
jokoon
I still wonder how do you really make sure there is no spam and data
vandalizing in OSM. I still wonder about it, since there can be some entities
that would just erase competition for a price, but I guess that's the same way
wikipedia is dealing with it.

------
rmc
FYI Openstreetmap started a few months before Google maps was released.

------
saosebastiao
Cant google use OSM data? It looks like the license is pretty liberal.

~~~
pja
If Google used the OSM data, they'd risk being forced to share their mapping
data - OSM is distributed under a share and share-a-like style license. There
are probably ways around it, but Google regards their map data as being core
to their business & they've spent $billions on it. There's no way they're
going to risk that.

Apple is using OSM data from before the change to the new licence if theirs is
from 2010. Google could do the same, but what would be the point?

~~~
rmc
It's not "a risk". If they use OSM, they must release their map data they mix
it with too.

------
alatkins
OSM has long been the best option for mountain biking and hiking trails. Glad
to see it getting noticed and hopefully this leads to even better maps!

------
scoofy
Can someone please direct me to an OSM bicycle map that isn't hideous looking?
I've looked and i can't find one.

~~~
maxerickson
What do you think of [http://hikebikemap.de/](http://hikebikemap.de/) ?

The tile rendering seems a bit slow, but it isn't super visually busy.

~~~
scoofy
Unfortunately, when you zoom in on the cycle map, it's still a bunch of giant
blue highlighter blobs where bikepaths are.

~~~
maxerickson
Like this?

[http://hikebikemap.de/?zoom=14&lat=41.84557&lon=-72.00125&la...](http://hikebikemap.de/?zoom=14&lat=41.84557&lon=-72.00125&layers=B0000TFFFF)

I wouldn't call that giant. It does take a moment for the higher zoom to
render in, so the blurry lower zoom is there.

edit:(Not sure my tone will come across well, I don't mean to split hairs, I
just see a relatively thin line for the trail)

~~~
scoofy
I'm looking at san francisco, apparently germany looks nicer for some reason.

------
enscr
So what's the best 'free' app for Android & iOS that leverages OSM. I'd switch
in a heartbeat.

------
agumonkey
I wonder if there's a way to crowdsource picture data to reconstruct satellite
view, which is missing from OSM.

~~~
hnha
it is not missing from osm. osm is about vector data. you probably mean it is
missing on openstreetmap.org, the project's homepage. I disagree! The website
does not do a great job communicating osm's purpose.

Any company could setup their own osm-based map and include a layer with
aerial images (which they would need to buy).

~~~
agumonkey
Not buying satellite images was the point of my question.

To follow the OSM crowdsourcing model, we'd need some way to gather ~street
level pictures and reconstruct[1] vertical views, limited of course, no roofs
etc, but better than nothing.

[1] think microsoft research project : Photosynth

~~~
toomuchtodo
You wouldn't have enough images to generate anywhere near the data that
Google, Bing, Yahoo has. This may change if amateur automated drone imaging
takes off.

Now what _could_ be done is crowdfunding an imaging run by a satellite imaging
company, and licensing the data under an open license.

~~~
agumonkey
For isolated or risky areas I agree, nothing can replace high altitude views.
But for lively places ... are you sure ? millions of cellphones, a few
snapshots with geoloc and orientation, that amount to a lot of data.

I wish for drone imaging too, but automated cars aren't legal, and I think
drones won't be for even longer (unless Amazon unlesh some nice lobby-fu).

About crowdfunding satellite licensing.. I just remember a lot of people are
sending high altitude balloons, maybe that would be a cheap middle ground.

~~~
toomuchtodo
> About crowdfunding satellite licensing.. I just remember a lot of people are
> sending high altitude balloons, maybe that would be a cheap middle ground.

Want to work on an autonomous dirigible project? I'm up for it. We could build
a home made Argus for image collection: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARGUS-
IS](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARGUS-IS)

"The three principal components of the ARGUS-IS are a 1.8 Gigapixels video
system plus two processing subsystems, one in the air and the other located on
the ground.[17] The sensor uses four lenses and 368 cell phone cameras, 5
megapixels each.[18]"

~~~
agumonkey
I'm up for anything even when I'm clearly unqualified like anything that
flies.

------
clarry
Now if there was a well performing map editor & viewer for the desktop, and
without crazy deps..

~~~
Vik1ng
What are you missing? I always just used the one in the browser and that did
most things just fine. Just recently used JOSM which of course has some
advantages, but the basics seems to work everywhere.

~~~
clarry
Performance. Both are unusably slow, and eat a ton of RAM (oom quick).

~~~
maxerickson
How often do you check back on Josm?

I might just be more patient than you, but I spend more time waiting for
imagery to come in from servers than I spend waiting for Josm (on a 5+ year
old laptop with 2 GB or ram...).

~~~
clarry
A 5+ year old laptop could be an order of magnitude faster than a 4+ year old
netbook (Atom N450!) with 1G of RAM.

I've tried josm a few times, it's completely unusable.

~~~
maxerickson
Yeah, I was just trying to establish something like 'modest hardware works
well enough for me'. I think Josm wouldn't work very well with any less ram
(swap is an occasional pain point).

Do you think the style of interface presented by iD is more in the right
direction? I don't mean the in-browser stuff, I mean the more simplified
editing model and such.

~~~
clarry
I really can't say. UIs are something I might be able to judge after actually
using them for a while. But as long as these editors freeze for seconds
whenever I try to do anything, and crash with OOM after a dozen or two
minutes, I just cannot get far enough to say anything about the UI and
workflow.

~~~
maxerickson
On Windows with up to date Java it wants ~800 megabytes of virtual memory, but
I never get out of memory crashes, just the occasional pause for swap (the
pattern is very clearly swap).

(I'm not really trying to express an opinion on whether this is hoggish or
not, just putting the numbers down)

------
elchief
Dear female techs. This is a golden opportunity to make your mark on a green-
field project that is about to blow up.

