

Ask YC: Need a bit of advice, fellow student is screwing me over on this website. - zasz

I confess to being a total moron for not getting anything in writing.<p>Anyway: I was offered $500 to write a database-backed web app and missed one deadline they gave me. There were a couple occasions where I said I hoped to have it done soon, but didn't. Anyway, they never specificed exactly what they wanted, so I pushed out a functional version that had the general aesthetic they wanted, figuring that I could add in other changes once they played around with it a bit. I also had to pay about $300 in hosting, since their hosting wasn't set up to serve anything more than static HTML.<p>Because they think I missed "several" deadlines and the site wasn't what they were imagining, they now want to pay me only $500, instead of $500 plus hosting. Effectively, only $200 for my work. My question: should I bargain or just take their new offer, or take down the site? I'm considering bargaining, because the guy's part of an organization, and I'd like the rest of the members to hear my side. What I was thinking was to cc the other person I know in their organization with a defense and a request for the full amount. Thoughts?<p>Edit: I can cancel the hosting within the next couple weeks and get that money back, so keeping the code and walking away doesn't hurt me financially.
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SwellJoe
What you don't have in writing, they also do not have in writing.

You owe them nothing except what you believe to be right. Likewise, they owe
you nothing except what their conscience tells them is right.

It sounds like requirements and fees weren't discussed very much or very
clearly, and that's asking for everyone to be disappointed. But, if you're in
the hole due to their own inability to setup a webserver...they owe you for
the webserver, too, if they want the site. It was nice of you to provide that
additional service all this time.

Anyway, if it were me, I'd probably walk away, code in hand, and simply avoid
working with this person in the future. But I don't need $500 to make rent or
buy books or whatever and to pay off a $300 hosting bill...you do what you
have to do and what you're dignity allows/demands.

All of that said, I've worked _many_ times on a hand shake deal. In fact, I've
almost never done contract work with an actual contract. When things go wrong,
it's almost always wrong on both sides (or you possibly aren't a very good
judge of character), and I usually accept my lumps and move on, avoiding
working with the person again. The definition of "accept my lumps" depends on
a lot of factors...and in this case could mean, "take the $500 and get away
fast", "shut down the site, hold onto the code and discontinue working
with/for this person", or "demand $800 even though confrontation makes you
uncomfortable". Only you can decide that.

I think the key here is that you're more intimidated than you need to be.

~~~
zasz
Thanks for the eloquent post. I'm going to cool off a bit longer, ask for the
original amount, and then walk away if they decline.

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MoeDrippins
Give them the app for the $500 they promised you. On a DVD/CD. Hosting it is
another cost, which you would be glad to do/arrange for them, once you get
that cost paid to you.

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tonystubblebine
Was the hosting expense approved by them? Rather than "bargaining" I think
you'd get a lot more out of listening and really trying to understand what
their expectations were. That way you'll know more with your next client.

One thing about consulting is that it really pays to over communicate, ask for
lots of approvals, and capture as much of it in email as possible. Be direct:

"Even though we've talked numerous times, the requirements still seem too
general for me to correctly implement the product. What I'd like to do is
produce something that's in the general aesthetic so that we have something
concrete to talk about. I will upload this version by 8/18. Do you approve?"

~~~
zasz
Yes, the hosting expense was approved. After the client (fellow college
student) saw the site, they submitted a checklist of things they wanted to
change. Aside from adding search functionality, it was very minor stuff like
adding a link back to the main page. The guy I've had to talk to is so
dissatisfied with me at this point, though, that he's calling in a different
programmer.

The other thing making this tough is that he's over in Ohio with a little
group trying to capture absentee votes for Obama. That's one reason why it
seemed easier to make something that worked and looked fine to normal users,
even if the admins had to deal with a clunkier interface. So this is
complicated because they 1) didn't specify exactly when they wanted this, and
they've just let me know recently they wanted this a LONG time ago, and 2)
they don't want any more code from me, which is really frustrating, because
they only want minor changes and the main groundwork has been completed.

------
markm
Tell them your fee is $800 ($500 for the work and $300 for hosting). If they
don't pay you don't deliver the product.

Edit 1: Or tell them your fee is $500, not including $300 hosting.

~~~
zasz
Hm, so adding you into the total, half are for just eating the cost, and half
are for going after the original fee. Aah!

Thanks a lot for responding though.

~~~
mileszs
I think both markm and tonystubblebine have made good points. Require all of
the money originally agreed upon, and do your best to over-communicate and get
things done the way they want them.

Be willing to admit you may have made a mistake. Even if you believe that they
are ultimately responsible for the breakdown of your arrangement, start off
your communication by apologizing for poor communication, or something along
those lines. They will appreciate your honesty and humility, and be more
willing to listen when it's time to talk about money. Do your best to be calm,
patient, and kind, while being firm, and you'll likely at least gain some
respect.

~~~
tstegart
There are some good points here. I would definitely in the future separate
your costs from your work. Hosting is their cost. It should have been paid by
them upfront, not from you. Its one thing you should require in the future.
Not only will it weed out people who can't really pay, but it helps separate
in people's minds what work you're doing.

To your customers, that hosting cost is now included in their minds of what
their site is "worth." It shouldn't be. Your work is separate, and the hosting
costs have nothing to do with how much your work is worth. Mixing them up was
a mistake on your part. You now have to prove what you did was worth $800,
instead of proving that its worth $500, with $300 hosting costs (which would
have been paid before this).

I'd say stick to your guns, but also come up with a "carrot" instead of the
sticks everyone else is talking about. Yeah, you might not think you need to,
but adding in a few extra features to make sure you get your $500 might be
worth it if you can pull them off quickly.

And by carrot, I don't mean saying you'll do what you were going to do in the
first place. To work psychologically, it has to be beyond what they were
expecting.

------
joshn
In my opinion, $500 is too low for even the simplest site.

6 years back i had a similar disaster. I promised a friend to do a site for
$300. figuring there was only 3 hours of work and i was gonna make $100/h.
yay... it was an instant disaster. took like 80 hours of work. negotiated more
money but was not happy in the end.

The very fact that your customer is willing to spend only $500 on a site is a
huge tell.

As for hosting in development: Avoid deploying the development version to
remote servers (its a risk that will end up costing time and money). you can
use your local computer and just signup to a free virtual dns name like no-
ip.org.

Tips to charge more:

Design and setup + deployment to production also need to be billed. Dont give
an estimate without a design. If the design takes more than a few hours, you
should bill the design (since the customer can use it without you).

Also start taking at least 25% up front. It will ensure your customer is READY
and SERIOUS about working with you. Too many times the customer will delay
waiting on product information or information from a partner. Having money in
the pot will motivate all parties to move quickly.

Institute a minimum amount you can bill. For instance, I dont accept billable
work worth less than 8 hours of my time. It ensures that people are not
wasting your time.. cant tell u how many times i've heard "Can you change the
background color?" and then it ends up turning into something a little more
complicated. So, just ask for a minimum. Either the customer is really in an
bind he will have to pay it, or its not so important and he can queue up the
work until he has enough work to make it viable for you.

cheers

~~~
zasz
Thanks a lot. I'll definitely keep this in mind if I do any freelancing of any
kind in the future.

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jasonlbaptiste
Zuck, is that you? Just let those winkelvoss twins go and do it on your own.

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mynameishere
Err, host it somewhere that's not ludicrously overpriced and move on.

A 500 dollar app on a 300 dollar server? Sheesh.

~~~
zasz
It's a Rails app at hostingrails.com. Great customer service and nice options,
but they forced me to pay a year in advance. Hence the ludicrous cost. Also, a
friend who's made some nice apps with Rails recommended them to me.

Anyway, I can also cancel within 30 days of signing up and recover the cost,
so walking away doesn't hurt me financially.

~~~
bjclark
So cancel and get a $20 slicehost slice. Or linode.

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unexpected
You have the code. You have the power:

"While I fell behind schedule on a few of the deadlines, I feel that, in the
end, everyone agrees that a great product was produced relatively on schedule.
In addition to the work I initially agreed upon, I incorporated X's
suggestions and extended the site further, even though, based on our initial
discussions, it was determined to be feature complete. As such, I cannot
accept any payment beneath the initially agreed upon amount.

If your team is unwilling to pay this amount, I will be forced to take down
the site and cancel the service to recoup my losses."

~~~
skmurphy
They have the money and the code doesn't appear to have another use. I would
be careful about thinking "I have the power." In misunderstandings like this,
there are typically mistakes and misunderstandings enough on both sides.

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bluelu
If they don't pay you, tell them that they are not allowed to use your
software. If they do howeer use your software, they are using pirated software
which will be very very expensive for them (If you call in the police and they
confiscate all the computers and data). (Maybe add some function to the code
which occasionaly requests a site on your webserver so you can check if they
are actually using or not).

------
ScottWhigham
One idea that I haven't seen on here going forward is to request a deposit of
50% for upfront after deliverables have been agreed and 50% payable on
delivery. Works great for sub-$2000 projects IMO.

------
alaskamiller
My question is this: Did you confer with them before you signed up for the
hosting?

If you didn't then I'm not sure why you're demanding money for it. You're owed
the $500 for the coding since you did it to spec, even if it's not as fanciful
as they had imagined it.

But really... $300 for hosting? Are you serious? If I had someone come to me
and try to that pull over me I would be furious. You could have easily showed
them the site on a laptop without hosting and then talk to them after wards
about extending your contract to consult for them how to implement the site.

~~~
zasz
Yes, of course I did. They're also not physically present and not technical at
all. Just emailing them the code wasn't an option.

Is $300 really such a bad deal for a whole year in advance, by the way? It
works out to about $20 a month.

~~~
alaskamiller
Did they okay the expenditure? Did you work out how you were going to transfer
the code to them?

300 annually is 25 a month. Linode.com and slicehost.com both have plans
starting at $19.99 and doesn't require prepayment. That might be something
easier for them to swallow.

~~~
zasz
Yes, no. I suppose I _could_ have emailed the code to them, but as non-
technical people, they wouldn't be able to do much with it beyond passing it
on to someone else.

Anyway, thanks for the hosting suggestions; I'll definitely check them out.

~~~
alaskamiller
If they knew all of this going in then you're definitely owed the money. Good
luck getting paid.

