
Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket  - vaksel
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2009/08/apple-expects-google-voice-app-developers-to-pay-refunds-out-of-pocket/
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martythemaniak
At the risk of sounding like an asshole, it's nice to see one's views
validated. Some of us have been getting downmodded for bad-mouthing Apple's
App Store and warning against this kind of stuff since its launch.

It's important to note that none of Apple's written or implicit policies have
changed - it is only people's perceptions that are now changing.

The good part is of this debacle is that, either they will change their
horrible attitude and policies, or people will abandon them for greener
pastures.

~~~
chaosprophet
What I would like to see is a widespread developer boycott of the iPhone
platform. This would bring Apple back to the days where they used to cajole
developers into writing software for the Mac.

~~~
Gormo
The analogy with the Mac doesn't really work, because the Mac has never been
anything but a computing platform. But the iPhone is a phone first and a
platform second. Remember that the iPhone was a huge success when it was
introduced in 2007, despite a higher price point and no third-party apps at
all.

As long as the iPhone is subsidized by phone carriers, Apple's cash cow will
be hardware sales. It won't be until the smartphone market reaches a certain
level of saturation that Apple will have an incentive to focus on the App
Store as a revenue generator. And when that happens, I bet they will be a lot
less mercurial with their developers.

~~~
chaosprophet
I wouldn't agree that the iPhone is a phone first. How many people bought an
iPhone so that they could call or text others? The value proposition of the
iPhone is not in its phone features, it's in the smartphone features. The only
reason that it doesn't seem to matter is because there is no real rival to the
iPhone platform. I do agree that the smartphone market needs more real rivals
to the iPhone (I'm kinda wondering how Nokia is fumbling so badly here). If
the HTC Hero is as good as it is claimed to be, then maybe the iPhone will see
a hit in the hardware division, and Apple will be forced to behave more like a
democracy.

~~~
ROFISH
Actually I bought mine because it's an iPod and a phone with a nice browser.
Apps/Games are a frosted topping I use when bored.

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jws
Of course they have to pay the customer refunds.

The developers accepted a contract agreeing to refund money in certain
circumstances, the circumstance have occurred, it is time for them to uphold
their end of the contract.

The sales have been rolled back, the customers' money is in the developers
account (as sympathetic as "pocket" sounds, if they can carry the money in
their pocket then this is about very little money at all), the customers get
their money back.

I think perhaps everyone that learns this lesson does it the hard way.
_Understand the contracts you enter into._

(I learned mine at the hands of Digital Equipment Corporation. For "good will"
reasons I agreed to supply a specific key person for a specific nearly
completed project until it was finished for a specific sum. All good, until it
became in Digital's best interests to not complete the project on time and get
more money from the customer for another year's work. I'm sure the Digital
managers had many a good laugh that year.)

~~~
mhughes
It's not just about the refunds. The real issue is that they deny developers
apps and give them no more than an up or down vote. And when you try and talk
to somebody, they don't even give you the courtesy of a real conversation.
Apple is nothing without its legions of fans. Those fans start with a kernel
of developers and tech enthusiasts. You think my mom would have bought an
iPhone if her geeky son didn't harass her for months that it's the only phone
worth having? You think my sister-in-law wouldn't have bought a Mac if I
hadn't convinced her that it isn't this scary OS that's so different from
Windows?

I understand Apple has business contracts. I understand they are out to make
money. All we're asking is that they stop being such profound douchebags in
the process. All we're asking is that they stop shitting on the very people
who helped build their success. All we're asking is they stop FREAKING people
out with their man-behind-the-curtain/NDA-siging/cyborg-talking dev program.

~~~
jrwoodruff
I agree 100% with this. Apple's geek core is at least part of the reason
they're growing. It's not easy to convince a barely computer-literate person
to leave behind the environment they 'know', but I've converted my wife, my
mom, my brother.

This s#@t is leaving a bad taste in my mouth though, and I'm not even a
developer.

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credo
I realize that this is a contrarian view, but (in its aim at being
sensational), the headline is incorrect.

Apple has not said that it expects developers to pay any refunds out of
pocket. On the contrary, the app-store/itunes agreement tells consumers/users
that they are not entitled to any refunds for the apps they purchase.

Again, I realize that this is a contrarian view and every comment on this item
(more than 50 comments?) seems to assume that the headline is correct.
However, can any of you point to any evidence that Apple wants developers to
refund users for any GV related app.

~~~
cubicle67
Yes, the headline is sensationalist and incorrect. What's worse is that I've
had to trawl through several hundred comments (I had the misfortune to venture
into Reddit territory) before I found someone who noticed.

The actual story is that if any customer who has _already_ purchased one of
these apps decided to claim a refund, _and_ that claim is accepted by Apple,
then the developer loses the money they made from that sale (70% of the
purchase price). That's it.

The only difference between this and any other app, is that these developers
are unable to update their apps to fix any existing bugs.

------
luigi
Wow, when it rains it certainly pours. Here's a poll asking whether or not our
development plans have actually changed due to recent events:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=737511>

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sammcd
Why is this only newsworthy when Google has to pay the price. Developers have
had to pay this price since the inception of the app store. This is one part
of the agreement that I think is very unfair, and I am glad it is getting
press.

Sure we signed a legal agreement, but still it is a bad deal for us, and we
have no alternative.

~~~
pyre
It should have been newsworthy a _long_ time ago. It's only really hitting the
fan now because:

1\. They rejected Google who seemed to be on good standing with Apple. (i.e.
If they'll reject Google over something obtuse, they'll reject anyone)

2\. The FCC has even decided to get involved. If this had not happened, there
would have been a large uproar in the 'geek community,' but it might have
actually died down. A government body conducting an investigation into this
gives the story more legs.

3\. It was a number of Apps rejected all at once and all related to the same
technology (Google Voice). This gives it more attention due to scale (vs.
single apps here and there).

4\. The number of stories of stupid AppStore approval decisions has been
steadily growing. There is a sort of cumulative affect.

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quizbiz
I have no intention of asking for a refund. I have no intention of deleting my
GV Mobile app.

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stalf
And they dig deeper on their stupidity hole...

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quoderat
If Apple gets any more evil, they will become kind of parody found in a Mike
Myers movie. Makes me regret buying my Cinema Display from them

~~~
9oliYQjP
I went to a free iPhone Developer Tech Talk where they specifically addressed
this policy. Not too many developers in the audience seemed thrilled about it,
but it was laid out in front of them. If a customer comes to you for whatever
reason asking for a refund, Apple's official policy is that it is your problem
to deal with. I specifically made a note about it because I caught the Apple
representative's very lawyer-esque response which was to minimize what he said
at all about the issue, except to really say "it's your problem".

I might add that I don't think this policy is due to maliciousness on Apple's
part. The reality is that trying to handle refunds has a number of logistical
nightmares associated with it, namely:

1\. Refund standards and laws within contiguous regions that the store serves
are inconsistent. For instance, just because you have Apple Store USA, doesn't
mean that there can be one consistent refund policy. Now multiply this problem
by the number of countries that the store is present in.

2\. A great number of customers would use refunds as a way to "try before you
buy". The numbers would be significantly high enough to cause a problem.

Now, there's that old saying that you should never attribute to malice that
which can be attributed to ignorance. I strongly suspect Apple's approach to
this specific case is a simple case of bureaucratic ignorance. I bet that you
have a middle-management type implementing a policy that was designed for
him/her based upon very specific legal advice. The situation has probably been
flagged for attention by the legal department and upper management, but until
a policy is designed, they have to address the current situation using known
protocols.

If you were at the Tech Talk that I was, Apple apologized for a lot of the
iTunes Store stupidity that developers were complaining about online. They
also explained why things were the way they were and it wasn't due to Apple
being malicious.

~~~
pyre
You're missing the two main points:

1\. The developer is on the hook for refunding 100% of the sale price... but
Apple takes a 30% cut of the sale price. So the developer is actually _losing_
money to make a refund to the customer.

2\. Apple is the cause of the refunds.

Apple is in a win-win situation here (for them) because they are making their
own decisions and shrugging off any responsibility or consequences for their
actions on to the developers. Wouldn't it be nice to have someone else take
the fall and/or answer for the consequences of any actions that you take?

~~~
cubicle67
NO! this is wrong and I'm sick of seeing it repeated over and over again.

The developer IS NOT on the hook for 100%. They ARE NOT losing money.

~~~
pyre
In any case, even if the developer is only on the hook for the 70% of the sale
price, Apple is the cause of people asking for refunds. As such, _Apple_
should refund them their money. Afterall, it was _Apple's_ approval process
that failed if it allowed some of these products into the AppStore where they
were sold for months before Apple 'realized' that they were in violation. (At
least according to Apple's official word on the subject)

