
Ask HN: How do I put together a computer for my blind mom? - probably_wrong
As the title says, I want to design an interface that my blind mom can use. I tried JAWS, but as an old woman she finds it too complex. I fear the same will happen with a non-custom emacspeak.<p>I just need to patch together something that reads web pages in Spanish, books, and maybe e-mail. That&#x27;s it. Has any of you done something similar?
======
knob
I hope you see this, because 1st-hand-experience.

My brother is blind. He has been using JAWS for over a decade.

I love OSS, and I know many distros have screen readers.

Yet JAWS is just _out there_ ahead.

If she finds it too complicated: try and simplify things. Remove unneeded
icons and menus. Customize her shortcuts. Install TeamViewer (if she is
remote).

Keep helping her man. The internet, for my brother, is a place where his
limitations are minimized.

Yet to have the world open up in front of you, is all worth it. My brother
(just as me), speak spanish. He uses JAWS still the same, although the bulk is
in english.

Let me know if I can help you in any way.

PS: If anybody can point me in a direction to help OSS screen reader software,
please do let me know. Would love to contribute back.

~~~
dbbolton
Debian has some decent accessibility resources:

[https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility](https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility)
[https://www.debian.org/devel/debian-
accessibility/software](https://www.debian.org/devel/debian-
accessibility/software)

ORCA is probably the strongest FOSS competitor of JAWS:

[https://wiki.debian.org/Orca](https://wiki.debian.org/Orca)
[https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/](https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/)

I don't know whether Debian would be the best choice for OP or not. In my
experience, I wouldn't install any new OS for someone unless you are willing
and available to help the person until they get the hang of it.

My parents have been using Linux (formerly Debian and now Mint) for over a
decade after they got fed up with Windows. I still have to help them from time
to time, but I think that would also be the case with Windows, except I would
be trying to remove malware instead of showing them how to burn a DVD or what
have you.

~~~
brudgers
Malware has not been much of an issue since about the time Vista rolled out.
The new model is pretty good and the free Microsoft Security Essentials fills
in for 3rd party crapware antivirus packages.

That's not to say that downloading 3rd party applications for Windows doesn't
scare me much more than sudo apt-get install...the OS's just invoke different
levels of trust in me. Anyway, XP was the last truly vulnerable version of
Windows and thankfully it's been laid to rest.

~~~
tl
As someone who has had to clean an infested Windows 7 machine, I disagree;
there is no limit on what users can be convinced to install.

~~~
psykovsky
There is no anti-virus against human stupidity.

------
cmaury
Unfortunately there isn't a good solution for this, especially on the desktop.

You may have a much better time with an iphone/ipad/ipod touch. The interface
is much simpler than a desktop, and VoiceOver is much easier to use than JAWS.

Apps that can help (there isn't one catch all) Apple mail is pretty simple,
and fully VO compatible Voice Dream Reader simple text to speech app that
syncs with pocket, evernote, dropbox, and most importantly bookshare. a
service for the blind with pretty much every book published on it.

Web pages are hard to navigate, but maybe some combination of pocket and voice
dream reader will do the trick.

I'm going blind and this is how I perform the tasks you're talking about.

Unfortunately, if these solutions are beyond the means of your mom, there
aren't many other options for the tasks you are talking about,

I'm working on an SDK that allows developers to add a conversational interface
to mobile apps. This type of siri-like interface turns out to be much easier
for seniors to learn than traditional assistive technology. You can check it
out at conversantlabs.com

Feel free to message me if you want to talk more about helping your mom out.

~~~
ArcticCelt
>You may have a much better time with an iphone/ipad/ipod touch

The biggest problem with modern intelligent phones, specially apple ones, is
that there is zero tactile feedback on the screen vs good old buttons or
keyboard.

~~~
lawn
I'm not sure why you're being down voted. I find the lack of tactile feedback
annoying and I can only imagine how it must be for someone blind.

~~~
dogecoinbase
Don't take this the wrong way, but it's obvious from this comment that you've
never spent any time working with a blind person on an interface. This idea
that a blind person would need tactile feedback comes from a sighted person
imagining what it would like to be blind, not the experience of actual blind
people with buttons vs touchscreens.

~~~
lawn
No offense taken, I am in fact just as ignorant as I appear to be.

------
jareds
I'm a totally blind programmer who uses Windows as my PC operating system and
an iPhone for my smart phone. For basic email and internet browsing I'd have
her try an iPhone or iPad mini. I've found an iPhone much easier to use then
an iPad do to spacial layout being different on a larger screen. I started out
with an iPhone though so if she starts with an iPad this may not be an issue.
I'd stay away from an iPod touch if possible unless updated hardware comes
out. I've found the iPhone 4s to be a bit sluggish but usable with voiceover.
Since the iPod touch has 4s hardware I assume you would run into the same
issues. If you know someone with an old iPhone or iPod touch though she could
always try it and if she gets comfortable upgrade to newer hardware.

------
saqibs
I'm a blind dev, and would love to help - contact @SaqibS on Twitter.

1\. An iPod/iPad/iPhone with the built in VoiceOver screen reader is going to
be much simpler than a PC, and thus easier to get started with. 2\. If a PC is
required, then try the free/open source www.nvda-project.org. It is very
similar to JAWS. 3\. A final alternative is a simplified interface for new
blind computer users, like Guide
([http://www.yourdolphin.com/productdetail.asp?id=30](http://www.yourdolphin.com/productdetail.asp?id=30)).
I don't have much experience with that.

------
brudgers
Scott Hanselman's podcast interview with Katherine Moss is pretty good and
describes her combination of tools approach. It's about a year old, so pretty
much current in regard to tech stack.

[http://hanselminutes.com/413/im-a-blind-software-
technician-...](http://hanselminutes.com/413/im-a-blind-software-technician-
ask-me-anything-with-katherine-moss#)

------
a2tech
The Internet is not blind friendly. It sucks, and we need to do better, but
for now, blind people are mostly locked out of the Internet.

OS X has some really nice screen reading/accessibility stuff builtin and you
can have it do things like read books from the iBook's Store out loud.
Mail.app has some support for voice control if you're willing to get it all
setup before giving her the computer.

~~~
a3n
> The Internet is not blind friendly. It sucks, and we need to do better, but
> for now, blind people are mostly locked out of the Internet.

Really? This day and age? No one in my life is blind, so I just assumed at
least some minimally level of accessibility.

I wonder how many blind and sight-impaired people there are in the general
population?

~~~
DanBC
In US: about 1% of the population is blind; about 1.3m Americans are "legally
blind" \- which is defined as " visual acuity with best correction in the
better eye worse than or equal to 20/200 or a visual field extent of less than
20 degrees in diameter"

[http://www.visionproblemsus.org/blindness/blindness-
map.html](http://www.visionproblemsus.org/blindness/blindness-map.html)

------
Someone
How old? How long has she been blind? How does she feel about it? What does
she want in life?

Your best approach should depend on the answers to those questions. Maybe, the
best solution is to forgot email and web pages (for now, or maybe even
completely (1)) and give her a good way to listen to spoken books.

Contact an expert, for example ONCE if you are Spanish.

(1) that may sound harsh and also sort-of is but it may be the best solution.
For example, if she is mentally old and hasn't used computers much, it may be
years for her to learn to use a computer. Years that she could have been
listening to spoken books, relearning to go shopping, make tea or cook meals,
etc.

------
geocar
I'm a sighted person who had a period of temporary blindness[1] and had a
positive experience using the built-in software of my iPhone -- I quickly "got
used" to having Stephen Hawking read my email to me while I was on a
conference call, and would seriously recommend you take a look at it.

I also used emacsspeak for programming, and I don't think I would recommend it
as easily.

[1]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9284567](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9284567)

------
primitivesuave
If you have a Mac, you can create AppleScripts to automate most of the
functions that the average computer user performs. You can put each of these
AppleScripts in the "Speakable Items" folder, and the file name of the script
will become the command that your mother says to activate the script.

~~~
Riseed
If you're using VoiceOver, you can also use keybindings to activate an
AppleScript, by creating a VoiceOver commander[0]. "Open Mail" is a built-in
commander, activated by pressing option-m. (Default is right option key, but
preference can be changed to left or both.)

[0] [http://www.applevis.com/guides/mac-os-x/understanding-and-
us...](http://www.applevis.com/guides/mac-os-x/understanding-and-using-
voiceovers-commanders)

------
Raphmedia
I know that OS X comes with a lot of features out of the box.

~~~
Hoff
OS X and iOS both:
[https://www.apple.com/accessibility/](https://www.apple.com/accessibility/)

~~~
Raphmedia
Yes! It is surprising the amount of accessibility features in apple's
products. The platforms are usually very simple to use and work very well when
voice controlled.

------
drallison
I would like to suggest that you contact Jim Fruchterman at Benetech
([http://benetech.org/](http://benetech.org/)) who has had years of experience
with computers for the blind. His email is, I believe, jim(at)benetech.org.

About Benetech (from their website): Today, Benetech continues to be a
different kind of tech company—a nonprofit—with a pure focus on developing
technology for social good. More than two decades after our founding, we’ve
grown to include multiple program areas and initiatives that provide
technology to improve—even transform—the lives of people all across the world.
You can read more about our work through our four main program areas: Human
Rights, Global Literacy, Environment and Benetech Labs. - See more at:
[http://benetech.org/about-us/the-benetech-
story/#sthash.qOG9...](http://benetech.org/about-us/the-benetech-
story/#sthash.qOG99j26.dpuf)

Benetech is a not-for-profit and worthy of your support.

~~~
steveax
Yeah, Benetech is a great outfit. I had the privilege of doing the front end
work for the Bookshare.org website when they revamped it in 2007. Was a fun
project and we got tons of good feedback during development from a terrific
community of users. Highly recommend Bookshare.

------
miji
[http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-adriane/index-
en.html](http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-adriane/index-en.html)

[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/TalkingArch](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/TalkingArch)

[http://vinuxproject.org/](http://vinuxproject.org/)

[http://www2.cs.uni-
paderborn.de/fachbereich/AG/heiss/blinux/](http://www2.cs.uni-
paderborn.de/fachbereich/AG/heiss/blinux/)

i prefer adriane though

------
rlpb
"Vinux is a Ubuntu derived distribution optimised for the needs of blind and
partially sighted users."

[http://vinuxproject.org/](http://vinuxproject.org/)

I used to know someone who used an Ubuntu-derived distribution and seemed to
get on fine with a screen reader and a set of headphones on his laptop. I
think it was Vinux, but I'm not sure.

------
tjohns
I'd recommend looking at a tablet, either Android or iOS. Navigation is
simpler in general, which means navigating via the screen reader (TTS) is
going to be easier. You also get access to Google Now / Siri, which is nice in
this case because it gives you a natural language interface to some of the
information on the web — especially since many websites don't play nicely with
screen readers.

Another option you could look at, if you really want to go with a desktop
computer, is a braille terminal
([https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Refreshable_braille_display](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Refreshable_braille_display)).
I've seen some blind colleagues at work use them, but I don't know how the
usability compares to a screen reader.

~~~
JoshTriplett
> Another option you could look at, if you really want to go with a desktop
> computer, is a braille terminal
> ([https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Refreshable_braille_display](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Refreshable_braille_display)).
> I've seen some blind colleagues at work use them, but I don't know how the
> usability compares to a screen reader.

My understanding, based on conversations with and writings by blind users of
Debian, is that a braille terminal is helpful for the bandwidth and context it
provides, and useful as a supplement to interact with many programs
(especially as an engineer spending lots of time in terminals and editors),
but not satisfactory as a _complete_ substitute for a screenreader and
accessible applications, even if you spent 100% of your time in a terminal.

------
martingordon
iOS is the way to go:
[http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ios/#vision](http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ios/#vision)

------
mherrmann
NVDA ([http://www.nvaccess.org](http://www.nvaccess.org)) is a free, open
source alternative to JAWS. AFAIK, Firefox is the browser with the best
support for Accessibility.

------
sys_admin101
Check out Dolphin guide. The software is pretty basic, but it is designed to
allow non-computer savvy, low vision, and blind users interact with their
computer in an easy to use way. Guide will let you browse the web, listen to
music, read documents, check email, and various other tasks. IT comes with
English, Spanish, and French speech synthesizers. Below is a link to the
trial, and more information.

[http://www.yourdolphin.com/productdetail.asp?id=30](http://www.yourdolphin.com/productdetail.asp?id=30)

------
gbarker
Have you considered a custom tool for your mom to control a screen reader in a
way that’s most practical for her? A while ago I spent time with a gentleman
who was blind and had ALS. I wanted him to be able to use his screen reader to
browse the web even when he had almost no motor ability in his arms. So I
built a tool that allows someone to browse the web through just a few key
presses on the number pad. (The tool mostly simulates key input which the
browser and screen reader are reacting to.) There’s a couple of videos of the
tool at
[http://herbi.org/WebKeys/WebKeys.htm](http://herbi.org/WebKeys/WebKeys.htm).
Some technical details are at
[http://herbi.org/WebKeys/WebKeysTechnicalDetails.htm](http://herbi.org/WebKeys/WebKeysTechnicalDetails.htm),
and the source for the tool is at
[http://herbi.org/WebKeys/WebKeysVSProject.htm](http://herbi.org/WebKeys/WebKeysVSProject.htm).

If you think a tool like this might have potential to be of use to your mom,
let me know and I can try to update it in whatever way you think would help.
(I can only help with tools running on Windows, as that’s all I know how to
build.) Feel free to contact me at Barker@Herbi.org.

(I work in the Accessibility team at Microsoft, but my spare-time Herbi.org
projects aren’t related to Microsoft. If you have any questions about the
features in Windows for people who are blind or have low vision, let me know.)

------
Riseed
I am fully sighted, and occasionally use VoiceOver for accessibility testing.
I found it a little difficult to use while learning because it wasn't how I
was used to navigating, but after a few hours I was fine. When you first
enable VoiceOver, you're given the option to take a VoiceOver tutorial which
goes through basic keyboard commands and web navigation. After the tutorial, I
found most of the keybindings I needed by searching the text on this page:
[http://lab.dotjay.co.uk/notes/voiceover-
commands/](http://lab.dotjay.co.uk/notes/voiceover-commands/)

I was curious, so I had "Alex" read me some news from
[http://www.20minutos.es](http://www.20minutos.es) (first Spanish-language
newspaper I found), and he did not have a Spanish accent. Perhaps there's a
better voice in a Spanish localization of OS X.

I recommend using VoiceOver with QuickNav on because that makes navigation
much easier. VoiceOver also allows you to set keybindings for launching
AppleScripts, which you might be able to leverage to remove some of the
complexity from learning/using VoiceOver: [http://www.applevis.com/guides/mac-
os-x/understanding-and-us...](http://www.applevis.com/guides/mac-
os-x/understanding-and-using-voiceovers-commanders)

Apple has a handy keybinding reference, which is VoiceOver accessible:
[http://help.apple.com/voiceover/vo/en/VOKeysColor_1.html](http://help.apple.com/voiceover/vo/en/VOKeysColor_1.html)

Applevis is a great community, and so far I've found an answer to all of my
other questions by searching their forums:
[http://www.applevis.com](http://www.applevis.com)

------
dimino
Not sure if this'll help, but on the Daredevil Netflix series, Matt Murdock
(who is blind) was using a refreshable braille display[1].

Could this be useful?

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_braille_display](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_braille_display)

~~~
duskwuff
Most of the blind and partially sighted users I've known have used text-to-
speech. I suspect the Braille display was mainly in there because it looks
cool, not because it's functional. :)

------
cbhl
Here are some options you might want to consider:

\- Windows 8.1 with Internet Explorer 10 with built-in "use the computer
without a display" options turned on

\- A Chromebook with Chromevox (you can go through the Chromevox tutorial on
any computer with Chrome, but the keybindings are slightly different for each
OS)

\- An iPad with VoiceOver

------
javert
Perhaps create an app or website that reads text. You paste in the text you
want it to read to her---web pages, books, e-mail, whatever. Each item you
"push" to her gets queued up so she can listen when it's convenient.

The controls she would need would be very simple. At a minimum, start reading
and stop reading. Maybe something to skip to the next item if she gets bored
with whatever she's on.

My mother is disabled, so I've thought a lot about these kinds of issues.

~~~
khitchdee
I would start with Nuance. They're into speech.

~~~
social42
I'm visually impaired and tried everything mentioned in this thread. VoiceOver
on iPad or Marcos is the most user friendly comprehensive and stable solution

------
neumino
The best stuff I've seen is ChromeOS talk back -- it's actually the only one I
could roughly use with my eyes closed.

That being said, some websites don't play well...

------
jonbarker
For app launching on mac I recommend Keyboard Maestro, I use it at work a lot.
Over time you can customize it for her and string events together with audio
cues.

------
expressABLE
Does she still have some vision? if so, more of a combination of speech and
magnification would be best. For example, Windows full-screen magnifier and
either TTS or free NVDA screenreader set to speak only under mouse and with
verbosity turned down. iPad has all of this (no matter what the vision). lot
of my senior clients with low vis use one. Chris Johnson, Assistive Tech
expressABLE

------
Omie6541
I recently started a project because I am getting bored of reading everything.
Friend said the same project could help blind people. I am sorry but its only
a POC yet, I got caught up in regular work. I can probably invest some time if
its going to get used.
[https://github.com/Omie/shruti](https://github.com/Omie/shruti)

------
gerty
Earlier this year at FOSDEM there was a blind guy at Debian stand presenting
his solution:

[http://accelibreinfo.eu/?en/used-materials-and-
products](http://accelibreinfo.eu/?en/used-materials-and-products)

It's mainly based on Debian along with a Braille display if I recall well. I
suggest anyone interested to check his website.

------
ajcarpy2005
I find this challenge very exciting, the rewards to humanity seem potentially
great considering that haptic and other ways of sensory stimulation of the
user of the technology...can program a lot of subconscious influence on the
kind and also at the very least become quicker and easier to use (interfaces)
than speech, text, visual, etc.

------
j_s
Here is one volunteer organization's technology list:

[http://www.computersfortheblind.net/weprovide.html](http://www.computersfortheblind.net/weprovide.html)

I'd recommend contacting this organization and others so they can give
additional practical advice based on their experience helping others.

------
verelo
How do the tools available for Mac differ to those available for Windows?

I personally have fallen victim to the hands of malware on my windows PC
(doing nothing unusual I feel) which rendered it very frustrating to use, but
my Mac has not had any significant issues. I imagine that as someone vision
impaired these issues would be catastrophic.

------
SunShiranui
Have you thought about buying a Braille display? One of my university
colleagues uses it along with audio output.

------
jstoiko
One of my neighbours is blind and he mentioned that Humanware's products were
good. Do you know about the Braillenote / VoiceNote? Starting price is ~$2k
though and I don't know if you can get it subsidized and if you can, to what
proportion... Hope you find that information useful.

------
rux
I might also point you in the direction of Artur Ortega, @designedbyblind on
twitter. He's very knowledgeable about assistive technologies, and is also
multilingual a few times over so may have useful insight about the language-
specific aspects of your situation.

------
chanux
There was this discussion on HN about the work of a guy who built an e-ook
reader for his nearly bling uncle.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8177117](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8177117)

------
anonymfus
There is at least one blind HN user, he has a contact e-mail in his profile:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jareds](https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jareds)

------
r3m6
With iMacros (for Chrome or Firefox) you can automate for example the login to
websites. Maybe that can be part of your setup. Our use AutoHotkey (AHK) to
automate Windows as a whole.

------
CJefferson
The built in functionality of Macs nowadays is surprisingly great. I have a
blind student who just uses a Mac with the default assistance options turned
on with great success.

------
jlneder
What about TalkingArch([https://talkingarch.tk/](https://talkingarch.tk/))?

