
Senator presses NSA to reveal whether it spies on members of Congress - joshfraser
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/03/nsa-asked-spying-congress-bernie-sanders
======
gojomo
Only for training purposes, with recordings promptly destroyed! See from 1995
(!):

[http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1995-12-12/news/1995346001_...](http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1995-12-12/news/1995346001_1_nsa-
eavesdropping-listening-national-security-agency)

FTA:

 _" We listened to all the calls in and out of Washington," says one former
NSA linguist, recalling a class at the Warrenton Training Center, a CIA
communications school on a Virginia hilltop. "We'd listen to senators,
representatives, government agencies, housewives talking to their lovers."_

~~~
f_salmon
Also, for those who have missed it:

Obama was being surveilled as well, before being elected:

[http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/19/podcast-
show-112-...](http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/19/podcast-show-112-nsa-
whistleblower-goes-on-record-reveals-new-information-names-culprits/)

Which means Obama may effectively be a puppet (if you compare his promises and
reality, it sure looks like it). And that would then mean that no future
President would be able to start limiting the growing corruption, with the NSA
in power.

~~~
coldtea
> _Which means Obama may effectively be a puppet_

Effectively? Nobody gets the backing of a major party for his nomination,
donations, etc, without being thorougly screened and vetoed that they'll "do
the right thing" to continue supporting several interests (partisan,
financial, political, etc).

It's not like parties do all this gerrymandering and political games to then
allow some loose canon President to realy change the system.

In that sense, they are all puppets, even without surveillance coming into
play.

~~~
gizmo686
The difference is that when the puppetmasters are two political parties in
competition to each other, they have adapt their positions to popular opinion
or else their puppets loose power and become worthless. When the puppetmasters
are the NSA, then they do not need to adapt their posistions, because
regardless of the election, they still have puppets.

~~~
betterunix
"two political parties in competition to each other"

Where can we find these parties? When last I checked, we had two parties that
share a common high-level agenda and which generally agree on the majority of
issues (to the point where people have basically forgotten that there could
even be any debate on such things).

~~~
gizmo686
>to the point where people have basically forgotten that there could even be
any debate on such things

Exactly. The problem is that the public accepts the status que as correct on
numerous issues. If their were an issue where a significant portion of the
voting public had a different view, then I would expect a one of the political
parties to adopt that view to gain voters from the other.

I agree that a two party system is far from ideal. The main problem is that if
every one who disagrees with the current position on issue X is already firmly
committed to their own party for unrelated reasons then their is no pressure.
The traditional solution to this problem to focus on primary elections.
Unfortunately (for me), a group of Republicans have recognized this, and
managed to affect significant change by focusing on the getting their views
through in the primaries. In the long term (I hope) this will self correct as
it damages the Republicans in the main election

------
sethbannon
This is brilliant. This is how we'll get legislation passed reigning in the
NSA. Elected officials will wake up and ask "Wait, you mean they're spying on
ME?!"

~~~
gizmo686
In fairness, spying of congress (and the president, judges, etc) does seem
much more concerning then spying on most citizens, as it would allow them to
break the checks on their power that those bodies should provide. In fact, one
of the largest concerns I have heard about surveleince is that it would allow
them to blackmail politicians.

~~~
sln
Yeah but if you're trying to catch criminals the signal to noise is far better
with presidents, judges, and congress than with boring, normal citizens.

~~~
frandroid
Hehe, good one.

FTR, the ratio is much lower when trying to catch foreign terrorists. :P

------
leeoniya
"...if the NSA has spied, or is the NSA currently spying, on members of
Congress or other American elected officials"

It depends on your definitions of "has", "spied", "spying", "currently",
"elected" and "members".

So the answer is, "No".

~~~
drdeadringer
I find it very depressing that semantics and definitions of fairly common-
sense words are at the center of this particular set of weaseling.

~~~
wil421
Lawyer talk and double speak.

Bill Clinton got away with the Monica comment about sex and so will the next
bunch about something different.

~~~
pstuart
If you call impeachment getting away with it.

Side note: his predecessor had a long-time mistress that was well known to
beltway insiders. The Right changed the rules once they were out of power.

~~~
wil421
Times have changed its no longer acceptable to have a mistress no matter what
position you're in.

------
callcongressnow
If you'd like to call or get in contact with Senator Sanders, try:
[http://www.callcongressnow.org/profile/S000033](http://www.callcongressnow.org/profile/S000033)

Just click the call button, give the microphone permissions, and then it will
call his Washington office for you via Twilio.

If you'd like to find another member of Congress, just visit the root domain:
[http://www.callcongressnow.org/](http://www.callcongressnow.org/)

This is a little app I've been working on and I'm just starting to talk about
it today, so bugs are to be expected. If you find one, please file an issue
here:
[https://github.com/zmaril/callcongressnow](https://github.com/zmaril/callcongressnow)

------
danielharan
Now it makes sense. Every closeted gay Republican senator and aide knows the
NSA has dirt on them, so they shut up.

(We all have stuff we don't want others to know, but few seem as common or
career destroying as gay-bashing senators being in the closet)

Relevant: "Apparently to the homophobes running the NSA, chickenfuckers were
a-okay — the security threat came from gays."
[http://pando.com/2013/12/29/snowdens-biggest-revelation-
we-d...](http://pando.com/2013/12/29/snowdens-biggest-revelation-we-dont-know-
what-power-is-anymore-nor-do-we-care/)

~~~
nealabq
I think the chickens were judged okay only after they'd confirmed no roosters
were involved.

------
ajays
Gen Clapper lied once[1] under direct questioning by a Senator who knew the
answer already. What makes Sen Sanders think that they won't lie again?

[1]
[http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/...](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2013/06/fire_dni_james_clapper_he_lied_to_congress_about_nsa_surveillance.html)

------
gabeguz
I wonder if I can do the same thing with the MPAA:

well, yes I downloaded all those movies, but I haven't watched any of them.
Really, if I decide to watch one, there is a process by which I purchase it
first. Promise. It's not infringement unless I actually _WATCH_ the movie.

------
rl3
This was actually central to a scandal that happened a few years ago involving
former congresswoman Jane Harman. The allegations claiming that she was caught
red-handed in impropriety were based on _NSA transcripts_.[1,2]

Also, somewhat unrelated yet interesting: Harman authored an op-ed in the
Washington Post a couple months ago.[3] It seems she primarily railed against
the NSA, while simultaneously failing to disclose her obvious conflict of
interest, and took a parting shot at Snowden in the process.

[1] [http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/04/jane-
harm...](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/04/jane-harman-
denies-cq-report-she-was-caught-on-nsa-wiretap-lobbying-for-aipac-
officials.html)

[2]
[http://www.salon.com/2009/04/20/harman/](http://www.salon.com/2009/04/20/harman/)
(Gleen Greenwald authored this piece.)

[3] [http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/security-policies-
for...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/security-policies-for-a-post-
snowden-age/2013/11/07/be307c90-464c-11e3-a196-3544a03c2351_story.html)

------
natch
>Sanders ... defined "spying" as "gathering metadata on calls made from
official or personal phones, content from websites visited or emails sent, or
collecting any other data from a third party not made available to the general
public in the regular course of business".

To the twisted minds at the NSA, there are a ton of loopholes in that
language, unfortunately.

------
wil421
Keeps your friends close and your enemies closer.

In this case why not spy on the people who have the power to cut your funding.
Even though its clearly wrong and sounds like something North Korea does.

------
ProAm
Uhh of course they do. Why would they be exempt? If anything they are a
legitimate target for fears of compromising national security.

~~~
Torgo
Congress can fuck up the country far more effectively than terrorism. See:
Congress' response to terrorism. The scrutiny on them should be ENORMOUS but
instead it is exactly the reverse, they are using a billions-dollar world
eavesdropping device to parallel-construction convict petty pot dealers.

~~~
dwaltrip
Yes but I don't think closed door NSA style surveillance of congress people
would be helpful. Government open data programs? Probably a better direction.

------
differentView
Of course they do.

If I am controlling the spying, every top law and business school student and
people close to them would be under surveillance the day they were accepted.

------
swedegeek
Does anyone feel more reticent than usual to chime in on these threads despite
this being one of the most provocative topics on HN? Asking for a friend...

~~~
a3n
No, I don't. I admit that I very occasionally think twice about saying some
things.

Actually I think writing about the NSA in forums like this, and in email, is
the only effective way I have at trying to convince the analysts and spies
that they're doing the wrong thing. [You listening, analyst spy?]

------
dpatrick86
I'm confused by this. I thought this was already established fact based on
declassified documents?

[http://www.theshillongtimes.com/2013/09/27/nsa-spied-on-
us-s...](http://www.theshillongtimes.com/2013/09/27/nsa-spied-on-us-senators/)

------
schainks
IMO, this is something tax dollars _should_ pay for. Don't use tax money to
spy on citizens, use it to spy on members of congress so they have incentive
to behave in a less corrupt way. I personally don't mind that elected
officials should have to transparently have their lives monitored. If I was an
elected official, I wouldn't mind either. I'd rather it be the reason I was
voted into office in the first place.

If members of the legislative branch are transparently spied on by another
branch (in this case executive) of the government, it should keep corruption
down, no?

------
pygy_
I hope they strongly deny any spying, only to be burnt on the next morning by
yet another leaked slide.

------
kyleblarson
How many senators and congressman (conservative republicans in particular) are
thinking "oh shit, i hope grindr uses eliptic curve crypto" right now?

------
rbanffy
I'm pretty sure they keep an eye on representatives that are involved in acts
of treason, such as questioning or attempting to restrict the NSA.

------
2bluesc
This result of this should be interesting.

------
patrickg_zill
I can't help but feel that this is fake outrage, given for example, this
writeup of a 60 minutes interview ... from the year 2000:
[http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-snoop-confirms-echelon-
networ...](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-snoop-confirms-echelon-network/)

"America politicians may also have been eavesdropped on, says Margaret
Newsham, a woman who worked at Menwith Hill in England, the NSA's largest spy
station. She says she was shocked to hear the voice of U.S. Sen. Strom
Thurmond (R.-S.C.) on a surveillance headset about 20 years ago."

~~~
Theodores
I thought of this too!

This is why the question is such a good one. When 'Snowden's grandmother'
tried to out them on exactly this minor detail of spying on a congressman she
did not provide any primary first hand evidence, e.g. a tape recording. It was
her word against the NSA's. Obviously we believe her, or at least we do now!

So when the NSA say they have never spied on anyone in congress, they will
have to carefully craft their lie. I can't wait for it!

------
scottmcleod
Uhh duh? Can't have those closest to you acting up..

------
jimhefferon
Obviously they do. What kind of naive child would ask this question?

~~~
a3n
A child trying to draw out perjury in the same way that a prosecutor might.

