

Hacker News Coverage of the NSA Stories (IMG) - danielrm26
http://danielmiessler.com/blog/hacker-news-coverage-of-the-nsa-stories-img

======
msluyter
Personally, I don't get it. Just because something outrages you doesn't make
it HN material. IMHO, the story is 90% politics. Sure, there may be some
interesting HN bits, like the tech aspects of how the data was collected, but
the _morality_ and _legality_ and the _politics_ of the question are basically
side issues that generally lead to intractable flame wars and whatnot and
contribute to the redditization of HN.

Exhibit A, from yesterday:

 _" I hate to use this tone but, so be it. Maybe now you morons who continue
to vote in the pieces of shit into our government who are bent on taking more
and more power for themselves will wake up and figure it out? How much more
proof do you need? Does this make you angry yet or is Obama still your diety?
Oh, and Republicans don't get a pass either.

The point is that all of you morons voting like robots along party lines are
destroying my country, from the inside, one fucking vote at a time."_

This is the sort of tone that makes me want to leave this site for good. It's
not that I'm not interested/concerned about this subject -- hell, hit me up
for a beer and we can discuss politics all day long -- I just don't think that
we need to discuss it _here_ , in dozens of threads.

~~~
Jd
Exactly. Note that despite the plethora of articles, there is virtually no new
_content_. The issue is an important one, both the breaking story and the
details, but layers of political discourse on top of them don't strike me as
particularly useful or what I used to consider "HN-worthy," nor do any of them
seem likely to produce positive change (i.e. either a coordinated response to
a large problem or an alternative system).

So at this point I am also considering leaving HN for good.

~~~
edwardunknown
And no matter how smart the crowd here is when it comes to technology,
discussing history or politics here is like talking to children. Many of the
comments around here today sound like they came from the Drudge Report. It's
embarrassing.

~~~
Jd
Completely agree. Every so often I promote hacker news through twitter, such
that my own "brand image" is associated with Hacker News. Today I am
completely ashamed to be associated with this twaddle. A couple of days ago a
long discourse defending child pornography, today this stuff. Time to start
with a new slate!

------
cmatthias
Contrary to what this article states, this type of story domination has
happened several times before; the most memorable one for me was the night
that Steve Jobs died. For a period of time, every single link on the first
three pages was about him.

~~~
vixen99
While records of emails, telephone calls and social network connections of
Americans' life histories are being categorized and stuffed into an
inaccessible repository in Utah, does anyone else have vivid memories of
previous exciting or maybe sad moments involving the front page of HN?

~~~
benaiah
Aaron Swartz's death ended up taking over the entire front page at one point.
There was an image showing that at the time, but I can't recall where it was
off the top of my head.

~~~
alecdbrooks
This probably isn't the exact screenshot you saw, but I took a similar one:
[https://twitter.com/alecbrooks/status/290255929079898112/pho...](https://twitter.com/alecbrooks/status/290255929079898112/photo/1).

------
ColinWright
And the "Newest" page is being dominated by people complaining about the front
page being dominated.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5837616](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5837616)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5837672](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5837672)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5837837](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5837837)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5837852](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5837852)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5837884](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5837884)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5837916](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5837916)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5837957](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5837957)

Now, I admit that the last of these is mine, but at least with that I'm
showing the movements of the stories over the past few hours, and as a side-
effect showing off someone's tool for viewing the movement of stories on HN.
At least that different. Several of the others are screenshots showing pretty
much exactly the same thing.

------
bradfordarner
This story should be a case study for virality in a niche community. It was
100% political (i.e. as captivating and informative as a car crash) and
yet...it captured the attention of hackers the world over, apparently.

As someone who spent a number of years exposed to the world of spying during
my time in Special Operations, it was clear that there was nothing new here.
It was the same story replayed in a new format...a format that caught the
attention of those who know what lies behind computer code. To me, that is
what makes this entire thing ridiculous. The very people who know the
technicalities behind hacking, the internet and all things to do with
computing fell right into spreading a story that was dominated by fluff, lack
of specificity and conspiracy theories.

I'll let you in on a secret...the coders who work for the NSA are not any
different than the rest of the coding community. We did use Google...I mean we
searched for people's name just like millions of other people do every single
day. It's called open source information. Yet, apparently when the government
uses it everyone wants to believe that it is a grave violation of our rights.
What about a white supremacist group using it to track down a gay rights
leader's physical address and harassing him? Is that not far worse? Shouldn't
we be more worried about that?

I had thought that Wikileaks revealing the State Department reports and
leaking reports from Aghanistan and Iraq would have convinced people that the
government does not know significantly more than the rest of us. The way this
story took over HN showed otherwise. Clearly, conspiracy theories still sell.
They are urban myths. They have enough detail to stick in our minds but lack
the specificity that would really answer the question: is this even
realistically feasible or portrayed in a rational manner?

Unfortunately, I spent yesterday feeling as though there was nothing worth
reading on HN. Every story was the same tired generalizations of the NSA. I
learned nothing yesterday. Sad.

------
jaynos
I'm torn on this one and would really like to see a "Here's what we know
story" because the coverage seems to overstate what is happening. My thoughts,
below. Please comment.

1\. I assumed (and, honestly, thought it was public knowledge) that this was
happening already.

2\. The bulk of coverage (and reaction) seems to believe that NSA is listening
to your conversations. In fact (if I am dissecting the news correctly) they
are recording the key details (length of call, location, to whom) and the
actual message or conversation (not sure about this one), but only using this
information after a second warrant. Basically, they find a suspected terrorist
by other means, get a warrant to access the records of his/her calls, and see
who the suspected terrorist is in contact with.

3\. If the system works as described above, I'm a bit squeamish, but don't see
a huge issue. I mean, I'm okay with Facebook, Verizon, Amazon, Visa, etc all
having loads of info on me in order to sell me stuff, but once the government
(who is not out to make a profit) does it, I object? I'm not a fan of
sacrificing freedom for security, but this logic doesn't really make sense.

I probably have some other thoughts floating around, but these are the ones
I've been mulling over.

~~~
BrianEatWorld
On your third point, I have few perspectives to offer.

The first is that because the companies you listed are out to make a profit,
it is easier to understand how your data will be used. The very fact that the
government has less clear motives is what makes their collection of data more
unsettling.

Second, when a company is driven by profit and loss, they have incentives to
secure data because the inability to trust a company with your data will lead
to fewer customers. Sure, your data may get out in an attack, but over time,
to the extent its valued by the consumer, more secure companies will stick
around longer than those that are insecure. If the government loses your data,
some people may be fired, but agencies as a whole will stick around and keep
conducting business as usual. Third, along these same lines, a government data
store means multiple sources of data collected into one target. To those with
malicious intent, it seems logical that attempts to take that data will be
more frequent.

Finally, those, familiar with the school of public choice, will recognize that
government actors are out to "make a profit" just not in the traditional
sense. As a former gov employee, I can tell you that while there are policies
in place, the fact that many gov employees transition to private sector and
vice-versa, data collected will in some way be used for profit and likely by
someone you did not give permission to, as is the case with Amazon or Verizon.

------
jere
>I’ve never seen a single story dominate the front page this convincingly.

When Aaron Swartz died, I remember being really surprised that the whole page
was on that single topic. For some naive reason, I thought some variety of
topics was an immutable law and could not disappear so quickly. I then checked
reddit for comparison and I believe there was a single article about Swartz on
the front page.

------
davidw
I'm sure Obama will wake up today, check HN, and decide that, thanks to the
front page being full of this stuff, that things are going to be different
from here on out. All those upvotes will have changed the world for the
better.

~~~
marcamillion
I think that's very cynical.

The mere fact that there are so many stories about it on the front-page and
that the stories are getting so many votes & comments is a good enough proxy
about the 'informed' populus.

Obama probably did not get much sleep last night - and he prollly won't get
much sleep this weekend.

As much as I like him and supported his candidacy twice - this is an
impeachable offense.

I doubt the pressure will subside easily though.

~~~
Spearchucker
While I disagree about your view of the impact on Obama (most political issues
are hot for only a very, very short time), I think even mentioning the impact
it has on him is immaterial. The impact on _us_ should be primary.

Personally? I've been on the wrong end of this trend for some time - from
having my cellphone imaged at Ben Gurion to having my finger prints taken at
Sea-Tac - both for no higher offense than deigning to visit a foreign country.

These things piss me off to the point where I'm writing a distributed database
that securely syncs data between desktop, tablet and phone. It includes a form
builder for flexibility, and multiple sync servers so that if one goes down
(or is taken down), another steps in and continues.

We have skills. They give us the power to do things to change (or even just
challenge) the status quo. And yet we're ok with patting ourselves on the back
because Obama won't sleep for a night?

I think the real issue here is our belief system. Beliefs define values, which
form the basis of our morals, on which we in turn base our ethics. While we
believe what the US administration is doing is ethically and maybe even
morally wrong, it doesn't challenge our values (the government provides public
safety[1]) or beliefs (the US is the greatest nation on earth [2] - and by
extension so are we, individually), so we let it slide.

[1] At what cost?

[2] Depending on your values, it isn't.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML3qYHWRIZk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML3qYHWRIZk)

~~~
pekk
If I am trying to avoid sensitive information being imaged from my cell phone,
why would I be syncing sensitive information from other devices to that phone?

It seems to me that a simpler way is to have a different phone (e.g. a dumb
phone) for your trip through Ben Gurion.

~~~
Spearchucker
First and foremost, because I need that information wherever I happen to be.
Second, because it's a sync scenario I can delete everything while going
through immigration/customs, and re-sync when through, and lastly, if I lose
my phone, it's all encrypted.

------
hanifvirani
I was actually surprised and disappointed by the response on reddit. It should
have been the top story on the front page.

~~~
1337biz
Same here. It just shows how partisan Reddit really is.

~~~
rayiner
HN is what reddit was 4-5 years ago. Full of technologists and also people who
are outside the political mainstream (libertarian leaning). Also older.

Reddit is the body politic of the future. Lots of 19 year olds who assumed the
NSA could see everything and don't have much in the way of privacy
expectations.

~~~
twoodfin
You remember a different reddit than I do. Before /r/politics, reddit's front
page would be covered with the most sensational partisan nonsense. I kid you
not, the day after some hippies in a little Vermont town voted to impeach
President Bush, there were at least half a dozen stories about it that got
absurdly high up.

------
cwmma
there is a non NSA related story When Aaron Swartz killed himlself ->
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/cwmma/8377269212/sizes/o](http://www.flickr.com/photos/cwmma/8377269212/sizes/o)

~~~
protothomas
And the death of Steve Jobs ->
[http://www.waybackletter.com/archive/20111005.html](http://www.waybackletter.com/archive/20111005.html)

------
blibble
I don't really understand the reaction!

I guess my conclusion is that in general Americans trust their
politicians/government, whereas in the UK the general public assumes they're
the enemy and not to be trusted, so this wouldn't be a major surprise.

~~~
Swizec
I think it's a very European thing to love one's country and hate one's
government. My impression is that americans often consider those two things
inseperable.

Probably comes from our history of invading each other and generally having
oppressive governments we don't recognise as our own. Kind of sticks with the
culture even after countries start ruling themselves. I mean, even when we
didn't have foreign rulers, they were of a different class and could as well
be foreign for all the common traits they shared with their subjects.

~~~
ianmcgowan
As a European in the US, I can assure you there is very little love for the
govt. here too. One big difference is the debate over whether one even needs a
government, a question which seems self-evident and not worth considering in
(most of) Europe.

I find it surprising that people are surprised by the NSA revelations. I sort
of assumed the NSA is in everything electronic. Probably the Chinese too.

"We have always been at war with Eurasia"

------
Kiro
Today has been a very productive day at work since I don't care about this NSA
thing at all.

~~~
marknutter
Not a U.S. citizen I take it?

~~~
saalweachter
Maybe he just has nothing to hide?

~~~
marquis
"Don't think Orwell, think Kafka" [http://chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-
Matters-Even-if/127...](http://chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-Even-
if/127461)

------
crusso
I admit it... I tried to click on a story that looked interesting in the
image.

------
Bjoern
We should fill the HN frontpage with Erlang again.

------
tunnuz
I took about the same screenshot:
[https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7964705/nsa.png](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7964705/nsa.png)

