

How is salary negotiation done in real life? - _RPM


======
saturdayplace
The last offer I successfully negotiated went like this:

Recruiter: What kind of number are you looking for?

Me: I'm looking for a minumum of $num. (A 25% raise from current gig)

Recruiter: We can totally do $num.

<a week or so passes while they put the offer together>

Recruiter: We're offering you $num.

Me: Could you do $num + ($num * 7%)?

Recruiter: I'll see what I can do.

<a week or so passes while he gets approval>

Recruiter: We're offering you $num + ($num * 7%).

Me: Sounds good.

Now, a professional negotiator probably wouldn't have coughed up a number
first, but my gig at the time was paid fairly and I really liked the company.
So I tossed out a number that was big enough to actually get me to jump ship.
Was no skin off my back if they couldn't reach it. But they could. And I had a
pretty good feeling from the hiring manager that they wanted me there, and
that they'd advocate for me with HR, which I'm pretty sure is what happened.

------
Bahamut
Some things about salary negotiation - don't give much information except
anything that would increase your value to the company directly based on your
quality of work.

Don't be afraid to say no and turn down an offer if it is too low. It will be
hard to say no the first time, but as you get more experienced, it becomes
easier and you put yourself in a better position.

When it comes to receiving an offer, one can go to the current employer and
see if one can wrangle a counteroffer, but be aware that some employers don't
like this. At least, be sure that you are an employee that the employer
absolutely does not want to lose and that you would rather stay with your
current company all things being equal.

Personally, I'm probably a bad negotiator. I have reached the point in my
career where I don't care as much about the $ as I do about the work
environment, although it has taken 4 jobs in my short 2 year career to reach
that point. I essentially make certain mandates, and if the company is able to
meet them, then I am happy - if not, I have my choice of companies to work at.
Usually this might require say [insert current salary + $30k+] + [insert bonus
for relocation/paying previous company's bonus for leaving early/pot
sweetener]. Also find out whether the company pays bonuses, vacation/benefits
structure, and other relevant info, although nothing beats a high raw salary
since it is a hard reference point for future negotiations.

------
AnotherMarc
For me, the negotiation has been different with each job, and has depended on
whether I sought them out or they sought me out. You don't say your situation.
Let's assume I'm satisfied in my current role, and a recruiter is cold-
contacting me.

If their initial pitch goes well, and they ask about my comp requirements, I
know that I'm supposed to have them make the first offer, but I will usually
offer a salary and equity number. Granted, that's considered by many a
negotiation mistake. So, I will say that I will not consider less than x$ and
y-equity, but that it will likely take more. Depends on how the interview
process goes and what I learn. But they're numbers that, if we end up there,
will be better than my current situation.

So, then things go well, and they make an offer, usually at or very close to
what I told them. I've always countered some bump in salary or equity from
that, but a package that if they accept, I will accept.

For me personally, money is no longer the top factor, I don't particularly
enjoy negotiation, and I'm usually also talking by this point with my
potential new boss. So, I willingly make the process pretty streamlined at the
expense of possibly squeezing out a little more. That approach is not right
for everyone.

That said, I think companies fully expect some negotiation. So whatever
negotiation tactic you take, as long as it's respectful, will not hurt your
chances of ultimately getting the new gig. In other words, they won't withdraw
an offer or anything if you negotiate.

------
joshstrange
Never EVER tell them what you are currently making. They don't deserve that
information and it puts you in a very bad spot for negotiations. If they make
you give them a number take your previous salary and bump it up but 10K+ or
10%+. If they ask for pay stubs then kindly refuse saying that you are not
allowed by your former employer to share those documents.

I also always tell them I am willing to take $X (Where $X is 10K+ more than
your previous salary) but that would make this a lateral move for me so I want
$X+$Y (Where $Y is ANOTHER 10-20K) to take the job. At worst they say "No, but
we can start you at $X with a renegotiation at 3-6 months based on your
performance". Instant raise plus the promise of re-opening negotiations down
the line. Also remember that no matter what they say make sure you have the
schedule for when re-negotiations will take place and try to get it to less
than 1yr (especially for the first re-negotiation). Ideally you would get:
Initial -> 3-6mo's -> every 6mo's but you can settle for Initial -> 3-6mo's ->
every year.

NEVER take a job making less or the same as your previous job, moving
companies is the BEST way to get a raise. Even if you feel the need to get
away from a bad company don't take less.

------
relaunched
My employer changed a material term of my employment that I negotiated for
when I joined the company and by doing so, saved themselves ~20-25% of my all
in cost. I used that opportunity as a jump off point to renegotiate my
compensation. They said they'd consider it and came back to me very quickly,
saying there was nothing they could do.

6 months later, I had a new job offer. On the day I was going to resign, they
gave me a raise (they probably knew a about my displeasure, but not the job
offer). I thanked them, showed them the offer and told them I couldn't ignore
the difference in comp. Then, I asked if they could do better. So, they gave
me another raise. Then, I asked them if they could do better and...

You get the point. I am good at my job and before this point in my career, got
recognized in every way possible, other than financially. However, for
whatever reason, the only way I could get any financial validation was to have
leverage, which in this case was another job. In the case where you are
negotiating a new opportunity, your leverage is whether or not you'll take the
job. In my case, my leverage was another great opportunity for a lot more
money.

I suspect I'm not the only one on HN that focuses on doing a great job and not
on directly advancing their career. So, my advice to you is always have
leverage when negotiating and don't be afraid to use it. However, there are 2
caveats. 1\. You have to be willing to take the other job - your company may
not be interested in retaining you. 2\. Having a job offer is very different
than just being disgruntled, from the company perspective. But, tread lightly,
you want to come across as wanting to stay, but unable to ignore the financial
or professional disparity

------
sidcool
It's not much different than how two people would negotiate to get maximum out
of a conversation, but on a diplomatic level.

~~~
_RPM
How does one start a negotiation with it being awkward?

~~~
patio11
In the context of a job offer? You might start with "I'm really excited about
working here, assuming we can come to a mutually beneficial arrangement. What
were you thinking in terms of salary?" _hear answer_ "Interesting. Can you go
higher on that?"

~~~
tptacek
You can also --- actually, _should always_ \--- say "Great, I think we're in
the ballpark. I'll need a day or two to consider."

The first number offered by an employer (for the benefit of the grandparent
commenter) is --- practically always --- their _floor_. They expect some
fraction of candidates to make a higher ask, and they can't predict which
candidates those are, so there's a safety margin built into the first offer.
Any number inside that margin is, for the purposes and incentives of the
hiring manager, the same as the floor, so there is no reason ever to accept
it.

"We're in the ballpark" is a convenient way of saying "no" that sounds a whole
lot like "yes". It comes in handy all over the place!

"I'll need a day or two two consider" allows you to take the negotiation
offline. If you're more comfortable, for instance, making a counteroffer via
email than on the phone, "I'll need a day" accomplishes that for you (a good
hiring manager is going to get you right back on the phone when you make that
email counter, though). Since every piece of job hunting advice ever written
suggests that candidates ask for a day to consider, every sane hiring manager
(a) expects you to ask and (b) will happily concede.

------
massung
There are several factors here that I haven't seen anyone else bring up yet,
so I'll mention them:

1\. Negotions will be very different if you _need_ the job rather than "just
looking" \- especially if they know it. Try not to let emotions get in the
way, but it can be tough.

2\. Never "negotiate" salary with a recruiter. They make money when you get an
offer. They couldn't care less if you get what you want or if the employer
will offer you want you need/want.

3\. Recruiters don't give a damn about you and they aren't working "for you".
You are a commission. They are no different than a realtor. They want to close
the deal as quickly as possible and focus on the next commission.

If your first contact with a potential employer is through a recruiter and
money comes up, it's 100% about weeding you out. They don't want to waste time
with someone who is going to demand more than the employer is willing to pay.

If you don't need the job, your best bet is to talk to them about lifestyle
and comfort level instead of money. Do you want to own your own home? type of
community? retirement? kids to put through college? The salary required to
meet those requirements will be wildly different based on where the company is
located, but no matter what the employer's upper limit is you'll know going
into the negotiations (later on) that your needs/wants should be met by
whatever the final salary agreed upon is. Do _not_ mention what your current
situation is. That's completely irrelevant to the discussion.

If you _do_ need the job, and really don't have time to sit around and wait
for the best offer possible to come your way, then just tell the recruiter
that you'd rather wait until after you've had a chance to go through some of
the interview process before talking about money. If they press the issue,
suggest that they tell you what the position pays (usually it's a range) and
that you'd like to continue forward with the interview. During the downtime,
do your due-diligence on the location, cost of living, etc.

Once you're done with the recruiter and through the interview sufficiently
enough to start talking real money, it's important (imo) to not worry about
trying to squeeze out every dime possible. You should be going into the
interview with a number in mind that allows you - and your family - to be
comfortable and happy. However, ...

1\. Good companies usually have salary ranges fixed based on "level" or some
other factors (senior people make X while newbies make Y). Companies that do
this have no problem telling you what that salary range is, because they
aren't trying to weezle anyone. You should be able to ask them what those
ranges are. You should be able to get a sense of what you could be making in
the future (but don't count on it!).

2\. Remember that benefits can greatly compensate for salary! If the potential
employer has a great health package, covers 90%+ of your health care premiums,
matches 401K, offers 5+ week vacation, etc. Those things (to you) may be worth
far more than an extra $5,000 / year. Remember to give them an opportunity to
sell those to you. On the flip-side, if those benefits aren't there, bring
those up as part of your negotiation asking for more.

3\. This is my own experience, but don't ever take less salary because the
company offers great bonuses. It's much better to make $10K more per year than
it is to possibly get a $15K bonus at the end of the year. You can invest
salary, bonuses aren't guaranteed, bonuses can be taxed differently based on
how they are paid out, etc.

HTH

