
A French Grocery Chain Is Trolling Amazon Go - danm07
https://www.fastcocreate.com/3066794/quick-hit/this-french-grocery-chain-is-totally-trolling-amazon-go
======
stymaar
Monoprix customer for two years, I can relate this is no false advertising or
demonstration of intent : it works like this in real life.

Monoprix live in a nice niche of upper class consumers living in the center of
rich towns. The produits are kind of expensive, but the service is neat.

~~~
k-mcgrady
How does the checkout part work? Obviously you can't just leave your trolley
at the checkout - they need your address and need to bill you. Is there a
membership card you quickly scan or something like that?

~~~
jstoja
Two ways: 1\. You pay and leave your delivery informations. 2\. You're a
regular customer and have an membership account for that.

I can see a lot of people living outside the city using this service because
Monoprix is near their workplace. They go after work, ask for delivery, go
back home by train, and then are delivered the day after for instance.

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rathish_g
I am still sceptical about AmazonGo.

1\. How will Amazon technology work if two friends are walking into the store
and both are adding products to the cart?

2\. How will it work in a crowded store as it's quite possible that the
product will end up if a different account?

Amazon might have to invest in more security guards than cashiers!

~~~
bArray
Exactly and kids often pick things up on your behalf and stick them in the
trolley. "Mum/Dad can I have..." "Sure, go pick it up for me".

~~~
mdrzn
That's why they're starting with a test-shop and once they'll figure it out
they'll go big.

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deodorel
Fyi french supermarkets like carrefour or leclerc already have solutions where
they give you a scanner and you scan yourself the stuff you buy and just pay
when exiting. Very fast and convenient.

~~~
glenndebacker
Here in Belgium the Carrefour also introduced that system. It's fast if the
system doesn't (randomly) pick you out for inspection. Nevertheless I like the
system.

What I have also seen in the Hypercarrefour in Bruges that they scan your
groceries when waiting in line to the checkout. Then they print a ticket on
their mobile printer which you just need to give to the checkout and pay.

A local Delhaize (Food Lion in the US) experimented with a fixed POS where you
needed to take out all your groceries, self-scan and pay. I have also used the
same system at Tesco in Prague. Not the most pleasant system in comparison
than the mobile version Carrefour and also Auchan uses where you just walk
through the store with a mobile scanner.

Other local retailers (colruyt, aldi, lidl, Albert Hein) are more classic in
that regards.

"t's often broken, and some items are subject to different buying conditions
and can't be purchased via these self-service checkout lanes, like alcohol, or
"luxury" items with high margins, like razor blades."

To be honest that's not a problem when using self-scan at Carrefour. Only if
you buy alcohol or tabaco they may ask for your age or if you are picked out
for an inspection. There is no limit in what you buy.

Although that is the situation here in Belgium.

~~~
Insanity
Carrefour is not the only shop here to have introduced it, I have seen it in
Match as well (in Leuven). The smaller shops of Carrefour, the "express shops"
don't have it iether, so not all stores of carrefour do, but then again they
are smaller shops and there usually are not _that_ much people.

Colruyt, aldi and lidl might consider the expense of the machine + people to
do the random inspection as a cost they do not want, as they do aim to keep
the price as low as possible. Wether you pay people to sit at a checkout or
wait to check other people, the amount of money you might end up saving might
have been considered not significant.

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donmatito
This is a very fun bit of PR, but it represents a very common mistake from
corporate innovators.

1) Successful business model (retail)

2) Smart iteration on the business model (Monoprix livraison a domicile +)

3) For legacy reason, do not upend the whole business model, do not put it
front and center, limit it to some categories / users

4) Watch a younger competitor, not uncumbered by legacy, focus solely on that
service

5) Get shocked when they get PR. Release a video to say you've done it for
10years

6) Go bankrupt as the new service spreads like wildfire

Monoprix home delivery is great, my grandmother uses it quite a lot, but
retailers are still totally going to get taken over by Amazon

~~~
bambax
I'm afraid you may be right, and it makes me sad.

I like shopping online with Amazon, but I would hate seeing groceries taken
away with unmanned dystopian and probably very dysfunctional automated outlets
like on the Amazon video.

What happens when something goes wrong? -- The automated video system thinks
you have taken two products when you have taken just one; or it thinks you
have taken one and you took two, and a security guy who has zero authority
over how the system operates, or understanding of it, accuses you of stealing;
or a discount was advertised on the shelf but not implemented on the system;
etc.

What happens if Amazon decides, for some reason that they will not explain and
that you can't appeal, to cancel your account? Then you can't even go grocery
shopping?

The future is much less exciting than it used to be.

~~~
verbify
> What happens when something goes wrong?

Personally I've found Amazon's customer service is pretty reasonable
(sometimes you need to dig in the site to find something). I know they aren't
a great company in other ways - their workers are poorly paid and overworked,
but that's one thing I'm not worried about.

> What happens if Amazon decides, for some reason that they will not explain
> and that you can't appeal, to cancel your account? Then you can't even go
> grocery shopping?

Only if they have a monopoly, if this proves successful I expect other shops
will start investing in this too (or licence the technology). You're just as
likely to have an issue currently if you live in Bumfuck, Nowhere and the only
store around refuses to serve you because they suspect you of stealing.

~~~
bambax
The only store in Bumfuck doesn't operate a giant online marketplace and
therefore is very unlikely to refuse to serve me because of a computer glitch,
or because someone somewhere hacked my account, or because I changed the
username on my Kindle
([https://www.reddit.com/r/amazon/comments/5gvgdl/using_a_amaz...](https://www.reddit.com/r/amazon/comments/5gvgdl/using_a_amazon_kindle_fire_destroyed_my/))

In any case I can always walk up to the manager at Bumfuck General Store and
resolve any disagreement we might have, simply by... talking. Also, said
manager is in charge, he can make decisions and reverse previous decisions.

Amazon employees aren't in charge of anything, the system is. They can read
what's on their screen, and press a few buttons on screens that have choices,
and that's it.

The problem with automation isn't only that robots are displacing humans, but
that at the same time it's changing humans into robots (dumb ones).

------
automatwon
Is this grocery charging 'Whole Paycheck' prices? The fact that they invest
into this well-produced video, while referencing Amazon GO, located thousands
of miles away in a different country, suggests their target demographic are
tech-friendly and, by transitivity, affluent.

How about Amazon GO? Is that a toy / experience / novelty for affluent tech-
savvy early adopters?

Sorry if I'm not political correct. I tried. My intent is not to troll or
offend people who do shop at Whole Foods. I actually live in San Francisco, 10
feet away from a Whole Foods. I previously lived in Seattle, too. I feel that,
compared to other fields such as Finance or law, tech tend to be more self-
conscientious and guilty about income inequality.

~~~
hartator
Monoprix is definitely high end. Maybe not whole food prices though. French
American speaking.

~~~
miloshadzic
What? Monoprix is your regular supermarket.

~~~
stymaar
No way. Monoprix is definetely a high end supermarket, not because it's
organic or high quality food only (unlike whole food) but because it's always
located in weathy areas of inner towns (your find Monoprix in the XVIth and
XVIIth district, not in the XXth).

~~~
espadrine
An analogy to America, to avoid having people imagine Monoprix is Le Bon
Marché: Monoprix is like what Target is to Walmart.

Although unlike in the US, most of its competitors are owned by the same
parent company, Casino Group.

~~~
stymaar
I agree with the analogy, but I would add that it's usually located where your
would have a Walgreens in the US, which is much smaller than the average
Target.

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kehrlann
Slightly different use case, though. Say I want a sandwich and a drink, I want
that right now, not delivered to my house in one hour.

Funny PR, though !

~~~
randlet
So take it with you? You obviously don't have to get it delivered. It's still
an awesome service.

~~~
dougmany
He might have to wait in line though. Which really touches on what the Amazon
service is good for. They should be focusing on putting their technology in
gas stations and convenience stores, not supermarkets. It would be great to
just go in and grab a few things and walk out. Where as in a Grocery store,
the french version is much better.

~~~
ebalit
There is often fast lines for clients with less than x products. They should
generalize this system for carts and keep the lines for on-the-go clients.

~~~
kehrlann
But if it's lunch time, everyone is waiting in the same fast line, which
defeats the purpose ...

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thatfrenchguy
Unsurprisingly, the food in the Monoprix ad look better :/

~~~
cylinder
It's France, they actually have standards for food quality.

~~~
dchichkov
They actually have food culture.

I wish we've had some French bakeries and supermarkets in the Bay Area, not
this Amazon stuff... Even Whole Foods is not quite there yet :-/

~~~
dougmany
It is more then just "Have french bakery". Culture is fitting because it is
not just the bakery that makes the bread great. Farms, delivery, trade
schools, customers all are required for french level of quality.

~~~
ghaff
A comment I've heard that I suspect has at least some truth to it is that
France has something of a monoculture around French food. That may well be
overstating it. But I think it's fair to say that there is a highly optimized
supply chain around delivering a specific cuisine and rather high consumer
expectations around that cuisine.

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Jugurtha
Websites like this one piss me off. Here's the video on Youtube:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sF868SJSrE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sF868SJSrE)

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realstuff
This is seriously better than Amazon Go; error-free and free delivery!

~~~
Aaargh20318
When I go to a supermarket, I have to deal with finding the stuff I need, way
too many people in the store, etc. but at least I can take my stuff home
immediately.

When I buy online I have to wait for delivery, but at least I don't have to go
looking for stuff in 20 different isles only to find out the thing I needed is
in a completely illogical place, or deal with all the people there.

This concept combines all the disadvantages of physically going to a
supermarket with all the disadvantages of buying online. Amazon's concept
actually improves the physical buying experience.

~~~
bambax
Going to a (small) supermarket is not a disadvantage, I find it a nice
experience, because you can see/smell/touch) the products you want. I wouldn't
buy fruits, vegetables, meat, fish, cheese, etc. online.

Not being able to take your stuff home is a little annoying, but depending on
where you live it can be almost necessary to have groceries delivered. In
Paris many buildings don't have elevators at all, or very small ones that can
hold at most two people and not many bags. If you live on the 5th floor you're
happy to get someone bring the bags up the stairs for you.

~~~
ghaff
For me, it really depends on how reliable the market is. If I know produce and
fish are going to be reliably high quality and fresh, I'd be more inclined to
use an online service. However, that's not really the case with the average
supermarket and therefore I prefer shopping in person. (If it were available
where I live, I'd probably use Instacart with Whole Foods from time to time,
but I'm lukewarm on using Peapod which is available for me.)

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onion2k
This is exactly how innovation is supposed to work - if a rival company (or a
new entry to the market) comes up with a better solution then you have to
innovate to survive. It's exactly why competition is important. It forces
companies to improve what they offer. If they can do it in clever ways that
don't cost much, that's even better. The business wins and the customer gets a
better experience.

If Amazon has shocked the supermarket industry in to action then that's
_awesome_.

~~~
lis
This service is actually 10 years old.

But you are right, though - I'm working in this space and Amazon Go definitely
helped to shake up some people. Let's see if we can turn this into action.

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mendelk
If my understanding of this Google-translated French page[0] is correct, it
costs 1€, and there is a minimum order of 50€. I may be mistaken.

If so, that can be a big difference, especially to the crowd that puts
groceries in their personal bags, as depicted in both ads.

[0] [https://www.monoprix.fr/livraison-a-
domicile?menuName=servic...](https://www.monoprix.fr/livraison-a-
domicile?menuName=services1)

~~~
ebalit
French stores are forbidden to give non-reusable plastic bags, precisely to
nudge everyone to switch to reusable bags.

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StavrosK
Did anyone else find the original Amazon Go video's mentioning "deep
learning", "webscale technologies" and "generic buzzwords" funny, when in
reality they probably use people behind security camera screens tallying up
what you buy?

~~~
coldtea
> _when in reality they probably use people behind security camera screens
> tallying up what you buy_

I doubt they are using that.

~~~
bArray
I imagine that edge cases will be flagged and checked by a human operator, a
bit like postal services do with machine unreadable addresses. Deep learning
isn't perfect - how would you suggest those cases are handled?

~~~
coldtea
> _Deep learning isn 't perfect_

Didn't claim it was.

> _how would you suggest those cases are handled?_

Obviously the same way as you suggest.

But the parent talked about them MERELY using human operators behind cameras,
like it's just some mechanical turk-based fraud...

~~~
StavrosK
Eh, I'm sure they use some face recognition to track people and products, but
that's about it. How would you have implemented it?

~~~
coldtea
I wouldn't make any claims like Amazon did, unless it was an over 95%
automated, with humans involved only in some case of dispute etc.

So, face recognition to track people + image recognition to track products
(which is not that difficult, since it's a constrained data set e.g. 40.000
products to train, and they can also use information about position to narrow
results -- eg. aisle B, so it's one of the soaps, etc).

~~~
bArray
"image recognition to track products (which is not that difficult, since it's
a constrained data set e.g. 40.000 products to train, and they can also use
information about position to narrow results -- eg. aisle B, so it's one of
the soaps, etc)."

Wish it was that easy. People have a habit of picking stuff up and putting it
in the wrong place. Staff at stores spend forever putting stuff back to it's
correct place and binning stuff that should have been refrigerated but placed
somewhere non-refrigerated.

~~~
coldtea
> _Wish it was that easy. People have a habit of picking stuff up and putting
> it in the wrong place._

Well, the stuff will already have been identified in the picking stage.

~~~
bArray
"Well, the stuff will already have been identified in the picking stage."

Sure, but you take some semi-random object out of the basket and add it to the
wrong shelf. Do that a few times and things are going to get much harder.

If we're honest, regardless there will be wrong classifications anyway - if it
wasn't for laser scanners humans would make more mistakes as well and these
are nowhere near human intelligence.

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blackoil
In India all local stores have this service, you fill up a basket leave it at
counter with your address. They'll bill it and deliver at home and you'll pay
in cash. Though no large chain I know does this.

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WalterBright
Is all this "deep learning", "computer vision" and "sensor fusion" necessary
when you could just put RFID tags on the items?

~~~
verbify
RFID tags would raise the cost of the items. E.g. garlic costs pennies, less
than an RFID chip.

------
coldcode
As usual Amazon tries to take over an industry and makes no profit, which is
their usual recipe. They have a P/E of 174 which means there is no chance they
will ever make enough to be a real profitable enterprise. Outside of AWS I
think everything else contributes no profits at all. But I do like the leave
the cart idea although that only works if the prices supports the extra
delivery.

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oelmekki
Ahah, nice troll. But I still prefer to both those options the way I do it : I
just shop on store's website and ask for delivery. This allows me to have
shopping lists that I can use as templates, I can shop any hour of the day and
take time to compare products.

Granted, this is especially a good fit for me because I work from home and can
receive deliveries any time.

~~~
ghaff
It's interesting that you see just about every permutation of shopping and
delivery options out there.

You have online shopping and delivery as you mention. I'd do this more myself
if there were a service I liked where I live.

One of the local chains around here started up a "To Go" service recently. You
shop online and pick up. I assume the market here is people who can easily
drive but may not be very mobile or have young kids that just make it a hassle
to do the picking themselves. (My anecdotal observation is this service isn't
being used much.)

And this case is pretty much what a lot of markets in cities have been doing
forever. (Often smaller markets but I believe Whole Foods does this in some
locations as well.)

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alexandros
The point of Amazon Go is instant gratification. The point of this is not
carrying stuff to your house. Cool troll, but they should be careful of the
false sense of superiority. Perhaps they could hire some Nokia and BlackBerry
execs to explain the concept to them.

~~~
ZenoArrow
No, the point of both is convenience. Which one is more convenient? Depends on
how many items you purchase on supermarket trips.

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nateguchi
I wonder what the difference between the cost of Amazon's technology is vs
Monoprix's service?

Monoprix may have found that they can make more money / save on initial outlay
of shop fitting by offering a similar service, but without the technology.

------
Flenser
Amazon Go Is About Way More Than Groceries:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA2-iMz479o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA2-iMz479o)

------
WalterBright
I know that I often don't go to the grocery store to pick up an item or two
simply because I don't want to wait in the checkout line.

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merb
"Seatle's a bit far away" :D:D:D:D

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heisenbit
The fun bit is that Monoprix is beating Amazon through a superior e2e
logistics solution.

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elcct
I couldn't stand the feeling of anxiety that you have to be home an hour later
and wait for someone to show up with your grocery. Not only that, but what if
they miss or misplace something? Too many questions to write. Obviously not
for me. But Amazon Go looks like something I could use.

~~~
giarc
I'm guessing that you could say "Deliver in 3 hours" as well.

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dingo_bat
Haha. Cute ad but let's see where customers go when everything is ~10% cheaper
at Amazon.

~~~
rokhayakebe
Starbucks: Cute ad but let's see where customers go when doing it yourself is
90% cheaper.

Whole Foods: Cute ad but let's see where customers ...

There is always a market for people willing to pay more for whatever reason.

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1_player
What is with the clickbaity title? Flagged, this is not Outbrain.

~~~
novaleaf
the title matches the page title, and is very descriptive as to the contents.

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imglorp
On another topic, please don't be that site: 66 MB over 325 requests and 30s
to load over a 50mbps connection. And that's _after_ Origin blocked 166 more
assets. You're ruining the internet for everyone.

By contrast, HN is 65k and 1s.

~~~
crystalmeph
On the plus side, the site works fine with NoScript with just the Google
properties whitelisted.

~~~
slim
The site works fine with no javascript at all (disabled on my mobile)

------
frozenport
Human technology costs too much and doesn't scale well.

