
IQ and Religion - TheShihan
http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm
======
antihero
This is complete bunk.

Why? Because firstly, IQ is flawed because it fails to take into account
different forms of intelligence - for instance, an African living in the bush
may not be as good linguistically, but will be a far more "intelligent" hunter
than the average western person. IQ tests have been _repeatedly_ criticised
for failing to adapt to cultural differences, and are effectively geared
towards a western understanding of human intelligence - essentially, it's like
comparing a long jumper and a sprinter, having them both sprint, and then
declaring the sprinter is a better all-round sportsman.

Religion could also be linked to, for instance, poverty or desperate
conditions. It's all very well sitting back in our cities with power and
relatively good pay and oodles of free time, philosophising to ourselves and
declaring that god could not possible exist, but for people in packed,
impoverished slums, religions serves as a motivator, either by being the only
thing that gives people hope, or principally because one is taught it at a
young age and doesn't have the time or education to question it with science
or reason. This has nothing to do with a "lack of intelligence". Religion is
also a much greater part of society - think about England several hundred
years ago - many of the great minds were religious, simply because it was just
the given thing to be, it was the Zeitgeist.

Apologies for the aggressive tone, but this study just reeks of cultural
imperialism and sneering at others without really attempting to understand
anything.

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molf
This graph might tempt you to believe lower IQ implies higher religiosity. In
reality it's much more likely that poverty leads to both lower IQ [1] and
higher religiosity [2].

Correlation does not imply causation.

[1]: [http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2008/11/06/poverty-and-the-
br...](http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2008/11/06/poverty-and-the-brain/) [2]:
[http://www.gallup.com/poll/142727/religiosity-highest-
world-...](http://www.gallup.com/poll/142727/religiosity-highest-world-
poorest-nations.aspx)

~~~
tankbot
Although I agree with you, this is not evident from the graph. There are some
really poor countries on there with good IQ and low religiosity.

~~~
bad_user
You can't discus religiosity without also discussing the local culture.

In my country (Romania, claimed IQ average in the article being 94), because
of the local culture and even though I'm sure there are plenty of atheists and
agnostics around, people that are not religious do not usually admit it,
because that brings with it the disapproval of society at large. And the local
culture does shape the society you live in, being a powerful force against
misfits.

In fact, based on my own observations, I think that religiosity is also
directly linked with poverty. Due to the economic recession, the orthodox
church here has never been more popular in the last 100 years, or more
wealthy.

Btw, I am religious, while my IQ is well over average.

~~~
tankbot
Again, I agree. I'm just pointing out that this graph doesn't support well the
theory of religiosity's correlation with poverty.

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ChrisNorstrom
Well, religion (mythology) is the result of humans not understanding something
and attempting to explain it using fantasy elements. Which is very normal and
natural.

So if a society currently lacks the education or intelligence to understand
complex scientific principals of course they're going to use fantasy to try to
understand the world around them. Once people understand the world around them
using non-fantasy or non-religious explanations, they usually abandon
religion.

The way I see it, science and religion are just 2 different ways of achieving
"understanding". All humans want answers, and will get those answers using
which ever method, science or religion, they have access to (sometimes both).

So apparently:

\- Religion causes people to have low IQs (No)

\- People who are religious are usually of a lower intelligence (Not really)

\- People who are of a lower intelligence usually tend to be more religious
(Yes, usually)

\- Some people are both very intelligent and very religious (Yes)

If these observations are true, how much of society will be offended by them?

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westicle
I'm mostly amazed at the low average IQ in the bottom scoring countries.

My understanding is that having an IQ score below 70 has historically been the
definition of mental retardation.

Intuitively I feel there must be some severe cultural bias present in this
data (or what it measures). The alternative explanation being that most of the
population of Africa would be, on average, mentally retarded...

Maybe someone with a better grasp of statistics (or IQ tests) can clarify?

~~~
antihero
Perhaps it's because IQ has it's own fair share of problems and focuses on
specific types of intelligence. It also has massive cultural bias.

Some would go as far to say it's entirely meaningless.

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andyjohnson0
I'm fairly skeptical about IQ, but levels of religious belief may correlate
with wider social factors. An interesting source is:

Gregory S. Paul. _Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health
with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies: A First
Look._ Journal of Religion and Society, Vol 7, 2005.

<http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.pdf>

Quote: "In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator
correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality,
STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion … None of the strongly
secularised, pro-evolution democracies is experiencing high levels of
measurable dysfunction.” Within the US, “the strongly theistic, anti-evolution
south and midwest” have “markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth
pregnancy, marital and related problems than the north-east where …
secularisation, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms".

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eps
Where is Switzerland?

Correlation is not a causation. In poorer countries the importance of religion
is generally higher and the quality of education is generally lower. On the
other hand, in wealthier countries religion prominence comes down to cultural
traits. There's Canada/Finland and there's UAE/Switzerland.

(edit) IQ is not lower because nation is more religious. IQ is lower because
the nation is poorer. It is also more religious for the same reason. Wealth is
the cause. Plotting two derivatives agains each other is fun, but makes little
sense.

~~~
javert
Why make the assertion that wealth is the underlying cause?

I think it's more likely that it's more religion -> less wealth -> poorer
health -> lower IQ.

After all, ultimately, wealth is not a cause, but an effect. Wealth is
produced; it doesn't fall from the sky.

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digitalengineer
At first sight it looks like "More religious = Less IQ". Somehow I doubt that.
Religion is not one value. Some religions are anti-knowledge (at least for
woman and specific minorities). In Western Europe religious schools (Catholic,
Protestant etc) are known to teach at a higher level. In my area they are in
high demand due to the quality of their education, even for non-religious
parents. (The level of "fanatic" religion is not high here).

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ckluis
The irony is that the religious tend to be extremely educated and in history
served as teachers of many things.

The Catholic Church believes in evolution (although its not exactly dogma).
Pope John Paul II:

In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already
affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the
faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of
certain fixed points.... Today, more than a half-century after the appearance
of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of
evolution as more than a hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory
has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers,
following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The
convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither
planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of
the theory.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution>

Dual Masters, Higher than avg IQ, & Catholic.

~~~
tmp434
> _The Catholic Church believes in evolution_

How is this reconciled with Eve being created from Adam's rib? Genuinely
curious.

~~~
ckluis
EDITTED ----

I probably should write that this is my opinion. Spiritual genesis vs physical
genesis is described in the Old Testament.

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gojomo
Per this analysis, the US manages to be more intelligent than any other
equally- or more-religious country, and more religious than any other equally-
or more-intelligent country. Perhaps the US national motto (adopted 1956)
should be extended by a few words: "In God we trust _but also verify_ ".

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mikeratcliffe
"IQ is not lower because nation is more religious. IQ is lower because the
nation is poorer."

I am mystified as to why people assume that education provides a higher IQ.

IQ is ability to learn; the brains ability to solve problems in an independent
way and has nothing to do with education. If a person who rarely thinks deeply
begins some form of education then they will receive a spike in IQ but it is
not lasting.

A good way to think of it is the ability to think outside the box. There is no
increase of IQ from education although a person with a high IQ may score
better in an academic environment (or not if they are easily bored). Education
is about memorizing facts whilst IQ is the ability to think.

Wealthy people don't feel a need for a God but poor people do.

~~~
hellrich
Malnutrition can lead to low IQ:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment_and_intelligence#Bi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment_and_intelligence#Biological_influences)

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b3tta
I don't seem to understand why anybody would make such a correlation. I think
the avarage IQ depends on how wealth and how well developed your country is,
and not how many believe in religious stuff.

~~~
chmod775
You're looking at it the wrong way. Of course saying the average _IQ_ depends
on religious belief is nonsense[1], but the other way around ie. saying the
_likelyhood of believing in religious stuff_ depends on how high your IQ is
might make sense to some people.

1\. Religion tends to suppress and influence education, if that has any effect
on the _IQ_ of the population has yet to be proven

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oneandoneis2
Looks remarkably similar to last year's Calamities of Nature graph..

<http://www.calamitiesofnature.com/archive/?c=619>

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echion
How are these data valuable without corrections for other potentially
explanatory factors like wealth/GDP, education, etc.?

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davidw
What on earth does this have to do with startups and hacking?

Answer: nothing! You can downvote me all you want, but it's been flagged right
off the front page.

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pajju
what pattern does this study tell? I couldn't make much sense.

Being more religious means you move towards lesser IQ?

~~~
tankbot
I hope you're joking.

Anyway, for me this stokes my confirmation bias that the stupider a person is,
the more likely they are to believe in ridiculous nonsense.

It also shows that the U.S. is sorta smart for how religious they are.

~~~
mrspeaker
Soooo then it goes against your confirmation bias, right?

~~~
yen223
The US is an outlier.

