
London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups - harscoat
http://techcrunch.com/2011/05/22/witn-london-is-gonna-be-pissed-but-we-prefer-berlin-for-startups-tctv/
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maxklein
I live in Berlin. It's a pretty good place to work on a startup - great
transportation, excellent & cheap infrastructure and cheap apartments/office
space. Also, a lot of universities with cheap students to work.

Another advantage is that a lot of european young people go to berlin, for
example from france, U.K, holland, poland and so on. It's a city that draws
the young upwardly mobile crowd, rather than the working class. So there is
the sense of a diversity of ideas, and many different people doing different
things. It's a city that does not feel very "german", it feels very european.

Berlin is not so great for people looking to work in the tech industry because
there is no concentration of tech companies. But for self-starters, it's quite
conducive.

I doubt that Berlin will really become the mecca for technology though,
because I do not think it's easy to learn the german language, and in the end,
Berlin is in Germany, and Germany is not very multi-cultural. London feels
much free-er, English laws are much more conducive to small companies, and
people already speak english.

Berlin imposes berlin on you, you have to kind of be the berlin type to like
berlin, but I get the feeling, you can just be yourself in London.

~~~
jerguismi
Great to hear, I'm moving to Berlin in Autumn.

Does anyone know where to find startup/programming/tech events in the berlin
area? Which mailing lists to follow etc?

~~~
biafra
The c-base (<http://c-base.org>) has several programming related events:

\- Android round table every last Wednesday \- Lisp round table on Thursday \-
Wifi hackers every Wednesday

You can "follow" their calendar: <http://www.c-base.org/calender/termine.ics>

~~~
FrojoS
And even if you can't attend any of those events. Dont visit Berlin without
the c-base. Its a really awesome place to hang out. Same goes for the
Tacheles. [1]

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunsthaus_Tacheles>

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fdiotalevi
Don't agree at all, having lived 4 years in Germany. Certainly it's cheap,
dirty cheap compared to London; certainly it has a good, creative vibe;
certainly it's a awesome city. But that's all.

Facts I learnt in 4 years in Germany:

\- it's very difficult to conduct business in Germany (with German customers)
if you aren't fluent in German. And while people correctly says it's not
difficult to pick up some German, proficiency requires at least 9 months of
full time study

\- taxes are prohibitive

\- setting up a Gmbh it's expensive, and requires a lot of paperwork. The
mini, entrepreneur-friendly UG (aka mini-Gmbh) it's a laughable joke, just
political propaganda with so many limitations (number of founders, need to
save 25% of profits to build the reserve fund, ...) that's hardly usable for a
startup

\- tax authorities are, as a matter of fact, going after (I'd like to say,
persecuting) contractors, especially those coming from abroad or working for
foreign companies. I have a dozen of stories of people asked to pay undue VAT,
or asked to provide proofs that _their employer_ are conducting business
legitimately in Germany, asked to explain why some months they didn't earn any
salary, ...

~~~
evangineer
When my business partner told me about the cost and effort in setting up a
GMBH I was shocked. In London, we got our Ltd company registered with
Companies House for well under 100GBP in about 3 hours. We were registered the
same day we submitted our application.

I like Berlin, but I wouldn't incorporate over there and the winters in that
part of the world are too cold for me!

~~~
eru
You can use British Limiteds in Germany as well. It's all part of EU goodness.

~~~
fdiotalevi
That's true, you can.

On the other side, tax authorities actively try to punish foreign companies
operating in Germany with taxes like the Außensteuergesetz (AStG);
applicability varies from country to country, from case to case, and in my
experience if you ask two accountants whether your Ltd is subject to AStG,
you'll get 2 opposite answers.

~~~
eru
Thanks for mentioning the Außensteuergesetz. I wonder how they square that
with EU competition rules.

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dualogy
Berlin is awesome, beautiful, lovely -- in the summer, for tourists /
temporary guests / foreigners. BUT... being an ex-local -- in the cold season
(that lasts 8-9 months out of 12 per year) and for locally-registered sole
traders or companies or employees, it's not THAT outstanding. Since I do the
"lifestyle business" thing for now, as a German citizen I chose to de-register
with the tax authorities and from other registers and stay out of the country
except for 2-4 lovely summer months (just arrived back a few weeks back) where
I stay here as a long-term "tourist" in holiday flats.

Need to socialize with Hacker types? In any place with at least 100k
population, you'll find a few. And how many do you need really? My hometown
Potsdam had enough of them to have a fun social life. I happily geeked out and
co-worked with Hacker Newsers on Malaysian islands. If Berlin really does
attract "more of them", how much value does that really add if 1-5 cool people
is all that's needed?

It's a groovy place for sure for Indie hackers and creative types. But my
"company" is registered elsewhere: the authorities here just simply get in the
way too much, obstruct your core business with mindless pointless bureaucracy
and take WAY too large a cut of your turnovers. I understand when locals or
citizens who get together to form a company register it here and suffer
through taxes, forms and labour regulations simply because they, their co-
founders, employees and clients were born here or are locals too. But US/UK
startup founders moving to Germany to set up their company here? I don't see
it. Spend your first 3-6 months pre-incorporation product building here on a
Ramen basis on a tourist visa, sure, OK. But don't set up shop here unless you
have to. If you want to head offshore from the US or the UK, then either Chile
or Asia could prove much more worthwhile. And I cannot reiterate enough: geeks
and more specifically talented enthusiastic hackers -- they're really
everywhere on the planet, not just in SF, Berlin and London. You'll find them
wherever you go, as soon as you figure out how and where to look.

~~~
relix
Where are you incorporated?

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djhworld
I'm not sure what the cost of living is like in Berlin but here in London it's
astronomical.

People might have some degree of infrastructure to build a start up down here
(especially around the Old Street area) and there's plenty of office space but
the problems lie in the fact that if you want to employ young graduates (or
people with a few years of experience) you're going to struggle to pay them
without adequate investment.

A 1 bedroom property down here will cost you roughly £1200 a month + bills
(£1300 - £1400 in total) and then travel in zones 1 and 2 will cost you £106 a
month for a travelcard

If you're going to pay a youngster £30k a year then they're going to be
forking out 70-80% of their income on accommodation which is absurd.

~~~
ig1
Most 20 something professional in London live in flatshares, typically paying
between £400-£800/month.

I had a large 2 bed flat on Commercial Road towards the aldgate side for
around £1200/month.

~~~
djhworld
I live in a houseshare with a bunch of strangers at £675 a month.

Where I used to live I had my own place, but ever since moving down here I've
had to 'downgrade' to living with people you don't really like or don't really
speak to.

The fact that us young folk have to bunk up with others to make living down
here affordable is an indictment of the property market in London and the UK.

~~~
ig1
I actually prefer living with friends from living alone, it has it's
disadvantages, but it also has lots of social advantages.

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jase_coop
Who decided that the number of hipsters in a concentrated area correlate with
successful tech companies?

These 'cool', 'creative' pockets within cities such as San Francisco, London
and Berlin that the article suggest as a vital ingredient for developing the
perfect startup environment are merely the result of artists after cheap
spaces to work, exhibit and live.

After time, cool-hunters follow, prices go up, locals are pushed out,
companies move in.

London, particularly the East, is full of areas such as this.

~~~
olavk
Presumably the same things that makes an area attractive to artist and
hipsters makes it attractive to start-ups: Cheap spaces to work and live. At
least if you are bootstrapping, that is a big deal.

~~~
te_chris
I come to the startup world as someone who's also a musician - and music will
always be my first love - and I don't think the two worlds are necessarily
that far apart. Obviously not everyone wants to hang out at cool gigs and art
galleries, but generally startups are started by people who are younger and
more energetic and like to hang out in those areas where the artists are. In
my experience those areas are normally the fun parts of town.

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tpatke
To summarize: Berlin has a lot of weird people and it is cheap to live there.
Therefore, it will the next startup capital of Europe.

Hmmm... Sounds like the author had a good time in Berlin and wanted to say
something nice. Don't think I will pack my bags just yet though.

~~~
jinushaun
Berlin reminded me a lot of Seattle/Portland while I was there three years
ago. I can see a start up culture happening there.

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erikstarck
Uhm...

"Berlin feels like a European Portland or an Austin or a Boulder"

Austin: 785'000 people. Portland: 570'000 people. Boulder: 94'000 people.

Berlin: 3.4 million people.

We must be doing something wrong here in Europe.

~~~
lucasjung
I grew up in Berlin, starting a few months after I was born up until the
summer between the fifth and sixth grades. When we moved back to the states, I
was completely shocked at how the cities felt, because they didn't feel
anything like Berlin. Since Berlin was the only city I really knew well, I had
naively assumed that all cities were like Berlin; it took me a while to
realize that Berlin was the exception, not the normal case.

But there _were_ places in America that reminded me of Berlin: places right on
the line between "large town" and "small city." Not exactly like Berlin, but a
very similar feel.

Of course, all of this was from the perspective of an eleven/twelve-year-old,
so I could have been missing a lot of stuff that an adult would have noticed.
Also, for almost the entire time I lived there, the wall was up and I would
imagine that things have changed significantly since then. We left after the
wall came down but not long enough after for things to have changed
significantly yet--the summer before official re-unification, IIRC.

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radiosnob
As someone who just dipped their toe into the startup scene, the number of
networking groups in the city is amazing. But it seemed very chaotic. the
entire time, I was trying to figure out who I should talk to, and where to
find them.

Its a great place to try and start something though. The creativity, along
with the cheapness of this city is fantastic.

~~~
patrickg
I'd love to find a nice overview of Berlin networking groups. Can you
recommend one? I've just entered Berlin as a (not that young anymore) startup.

~~~
radiosnob
Getting an over view was the problem. The groups seemed to be isolated from
each other, with their own agenda our theme. Maybe that's how it usually is.
To start with, maybe check "Silicon Allee". I think that is one of the
biggest. They meet once a month in mitte.

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hugh3
This sounds right. Berlin, unlike London, has the right vibe for doing
creative work. In London nowadays it feels like the three choices for your
role in life are "banker", "football hooligan" or "curry shop owner".

It's also, though it's not mentioned in the article, _much_ cheaper -- I think
you'll pay about one third as much for your apartment in Berlin as you would
in London.

~~~
johnmossel1
It still makes more money than the rest of England put together and has the
largest GDP in Europe, not bad for a bunch of curry shop owners.

~~~
ig1
Also it's impossible to get a decent curry in Berlin ;-)

~~~
sneak
Try Assam on Spreewaldplatz. It's cheap, too!

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pimeys
We've been planning to move to Berlin this autumn with my girlfriend. The last
barrier I need to cross is to find a programming job from there. I've sent
several applications and some of the companies have already answered. I think
I'm a good programmer and I hope I'll find a job.

Berlin seems to be the perfect place for a couple like us. There's cheap and
excellent food, cheap and beautiful apartments, lots and lots of culture, lots
of DIY attitude and so many abandoned warehouses for underground raves... :)

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alain94040
We just held our European Founder Institute bootcamp in Berlin end of March.
We had an amazing time: 100 founders from all over Europe, mix with Silicon
Valley entrepreneurs and lock the building for 48 hours.

The only reason I never talked about it is that there are no words to describe
how great it was.

EDIT: link to event: <http://www.founderinstitute.com/posts/297>

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rmoriz
After living in Munich - the self proclaimed (former) IT capital of Germany -
for over 10 years I'm planning to move to Berlin, too.

For several years I've tried to build a community around Ruby/Rails but looks
like people don't care and all the cool stuff is made in Berlin anyway...

~~~
FrojoS
Cool. HN posters from Munich! When a US friend visited last summer and asked
here nobody replied. Wanna meet for coffee? I live right next to the LMU.

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agaton
I actually agree with Sarah/Paul. OK, London will still be THE European centra
for startups because the VCs, successful companies and a lot of great people
from all over the world + the English language.

But...

Berlin has a great international atmosphere, a lot of talented people and
people really love startups. But the most important thing is that startup
people actually moving to Berlin from all over the world to start their
startups or to join others.

When people want to move to a city because of the startup scene there...
that's a sign of that something great is happening there.

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icedpulleys
I've never stopped reading something faster than I did after I got to "'Feels
like' is an important disclaimer here." and glanced up to see that it was
written by Sarah Lacy.

Dear Sarah: don't worry, I think that London will not be that pissed.

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dreamdu5t
This is just vein. London and Berlin are both great cities, both conducive to
urban living and both offering what you need to run a startup.

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fbailey
What's lacking in Berlin is technology. There are a lot of interesting
startups when it comes to commerce or media but not many who can you impress
you with their technology. And it lacks the investors that will invest in a
high risk technology venture.

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JCB_K
To what degree is the tech scene in Berlin international? My German isn't bad,
but I'm definitely not fluent. Are there so many internationals that tech
meetups etc. are usually in English, or is German still dominant?

~~~
speedracr
Sign up for the Berlin StartupDigest - about 90% of the events are in English
(ruby UG, up.front.ug, ...) and most of the time, there's at least one person
presenting in English that can't speak a single word of German. Of course, ze
Germans will converse in German amongst themselves afterwards but choose
English whenever it's a mixed crowd. Very easy to get by, imo.

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davej
The usual needlessly controversial headline from TechCrunch. In my opinion it
really undermines the content which is actually quite interesting.

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ig1
As much as I love Berlin as a city, Germany's legal system is very much
focused on protecting employees rather than helping small businesses. Starting
a business and dealing with employment law is much easier in the UK than it is
in Germany.

Beyond that Berlin does have the developer talent pool nor the access to
finance that London does.

~~~
darklajid
Actually this doesn't apply to very small companies as far as I am aware.
Don't just take my word for it, but I believe companies up to ~7 employees are
treated differently..

~~~
dagobart_
A former employer of mine stretched that even further by employing interns and
freelacers, so he had about two dozen people employed.

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FrojoS
I would love to know which form they will choose or have chosen. A UK inc. or
a German GMBH or mini-GMBH?

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Luyt
What? An European San Francisco? I'm off in the bus to Berlin! Taking my
laptop with me, see you there. And summer is coming! Yahoo!

~~~
FrojoS
Other than in SFO, there will be a really nasty winter afterwards. At least in
Munich we get powder to ski!

