
DragonBox: Gaming children into learning algebra - RudeBaguette
http://www.rudebaguette.com/2012/07/02/dragonbox-learning-algebra/?utm_source=hackernews&utm_medium=hackernews&utm_campaign=hackernews
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mml
My 6 year old finished the first version, so we went and bought dragonbox+. a
bit disappointed to find the same set of problems, with some additional bonus
stuff. Was expecting an an entirely new set, could have saved myself a few
bucks and just got db+.

that being said, an amazingly effective game. after she finishes the bonus
problems, i'll be showing her how to work them on paper.

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mdc
When I bought the game, the descriptions of the two version were pretty clear
that db+ was the same levels as db but with more bonus levels. Maybe they've
updated that since you bought.

I got db+ and was happy to see that the bonus levels progressed from symbols
to letters/numbers so the last levels looked exactly like the algebra my kids
will see in school. I think the game did an excellent job transitioning from
the early levels that looked like many other kinds of puzzle/pattern games but
evolved the symbols into more typical algebra equations in a way the kids
barely notice but suddenly they're doing equations just like their math class.
Very well designed IMO.

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coryl
Someone please conduct of study (double blind, sample size 4, whatever) of
kids that practiced algebra with dragonbox vs those that didn't, on their
performance of an algebra test.

Would be interesting to see if they perform better, and the impact of
gamifying education.

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Jach
Here's an overview of some studies in edutainment I found:
<http://www.itu.dk/~sen/papers/game-overview.pdf> There are a few more hits
via Scholar. As one might expect, results are mixed, the experimental design
is usually shoddy, and there are lots of variables unaccounted for.

Anecdotally, I liked playing Number Munchers in my elementary school and I was
in a high percentile of my class and district on all the standardized tests.
My peers played it too, but they still struggled, especially later on in
junior high and high school.

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SamuelMulder
Dragon Box is fairly different than any other math edutainment I've seen. Most
of them are thinly disguised exercises in calculation. Dragon Box focuses on
learning the abstract relationships first. Actually, I think it would be an
interesting game to introduce in a college level abstract algebra class.

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AndrewDucker
Previously: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4105397>

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RudeBaguette
That was a great article by Wired! We decided to write about them because they
are a partly French-based company, and our news site covers French startups,
tech and innovation.

Thanks for the link! -Liam @ The Rude Baguette

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AndrewDucker
Yes, wasn't trying to denigrate your work - just pointing to previous
discussion people might find useful.

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RudeBaguette
Oh definitely. Don't worry, no offense taken - just wanted to take the
opportunity to promote us a bit ;-)

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madlag
My daughter is 5 years old, she finished the full game in roughly 2 x 1 hour.

Of course she does not understand fully what's behind (I would say almost
"fortunately" ;-) ), especially on divisions or multiplications, so it cannot
replace the future explanations about what it means.

That said, it shows the kind of game maths are about, and it dedramatize maths
completely, and maybe that's the more important aspect of this game after all
: maths are just a game, a complex one, but you have to enjoy them if you want
to be good at them in the end.

In the end, the game is very progressive, fun, she loves seeing the little
monsters growing and it entices her to go on. The UI is not perfect, but it's
already very good. For example, giving some time in the end to cleanup extra
members would be cool instead of relying on the order you remove members.

I can't help but think that playing complex games like this is one of the best
training for yound minds !

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ctdonath
My 4-year-old loves it. What can I say? She barely knows the alphabet yet
she's learning algebra for fun!

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dr42
Since by 4 most kids know the alphabet I wonder what the long term
implications are of learning algebra first. Maybe letters won't feel like
parts of words, but instead she'll look at them as problems to solve.

I wonder what the big rush is with children, symbolic manipulation in a 4 year
old's world has very little implication. Manipulating her environment through
motor skils, developing ever more sophisticated interactions with other
children, play etc, all seem to be much more useful. But anything that's fun
is very likely good. I wonder how much of the fun is her reading back to you
your enjoyment at seeing your offspring participate in algebra. The first rule
of being a 4 year old is to please the parents. They, after all, provide
everything.

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donw
I realize that this is purely anecdotal, but may answer your question.

My father got me playing around with programming when I was very young -- I
think six or eight years old. Some of my first memories involve our VIC-20
computer.

While a lot of what I did was just typing in simple programs from a book, I
did some experimentation on my own, and it became pretty obvious how
variables, loops, and the rest worked.

When I hit school I was mathematically so far ahead of everybody else, not
because I'm some kind of genius, but because I had already spent a lot of time
unknowingly learning algebra.

This was a disadvantage, because the school system wasn't built to cope with a
kid that understood algebra before he had memorized the multiplication table.

As an adult, however, I've enjoyed a pretty serious advantage when it comes to
understanding abstract concepts, especially anything involving symbolic
manipulation, and I think I can thank that VIC-20 BASIC manual from many years
ago for it.

I wouldn't be too worried about starting a kid out 'too soon', provided that
other areas of the child's mental development aren't neglected in favor of
developing mathematical skills.

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heimidal
I had a similar experience. My father and grandfather introduced me to
computers and programming at a very young age, and I ultimately taught myself
algebra, geometry, and basic trigonometry by age 10.

From fifth grade, I was bored out of my mind during math class. In sixth
grade, my math teacher recognized my boredom to be a lack of challenge and
decided she should do something about it. I was pulled into the vice
principal's office at one point and asked to slow down my at-home learning
because the teachers did not know what to do with me during class.

Eventually, we settled on a solution: I became the equivalent of a teacher's
aid for my middle school class and tutored other kids who were having
difficulty. This instilled a love for teaching that I carry with me to this
day.

I don't think we should discourage children from learning at a fast pace as
long as they appear to retain the information and it doesn't compromise other
aspects of development. On the contrary, we need to find a way to help our
education system cope with children learning things outside the classroom.

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SamuelMulder
I had just written about this yesterday when my 6 year old and 8 year old
finished it: <http://www.educationreimagined.org/2012/06/dragon-box/>. I had a
couple of questions from the 6 year old, but my 8 year old son only asked for
clarification once.

When he finished the game, I asked if he realized he had been doing math and
he said: "I didn't use any math to solve them". I think he meant calculation.
This will lead to some interesting discussions...

I would love to see games like this for more subjects.

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jamessun
Reminds me of the "head fake" from Randy Pausch's Last Lecture video,
<http://www.cmu.edu/randyslecture/>

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Start
What I like particularly here is how every feedback and game design element
contribute to the fused goal of learning-playing. Textbook game design
elegance!

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awakeasleep
As an adult, I enjoyed this game. I had fun seeing how someone translated
algebra into a game for children, and I also liked working simple algebra with
pictures. I don't know if i recommend spending the 3 bucks on it unless you're
looking for inspiration for your game.

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SamuelMulder
Since when is $3 for a couple of hours of entertainment (each if you have a
family) a bad deal? I have a hard time understanding how our standards for how
much things should cost has fallen so low.

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joelhooks
The intense look of concentration on my 7 and 5 year old's faces as the play
this is priceless.

More of this.

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wccrawford
I bought this a couple weeks ago, and I was quite impressed. I don't have a
young one to give it to, but I really liked how the rules were introduced. By
the end, you really do have a pretty good grasp of algebra to get through it.

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Sakes
My son will be 2 this month and he loves this game. He can only make it to
about the 13th level before Daddy has to help, but wow, this is an amazing
app.

His favorite thing to do is "pop" the zeros (ie spirals)

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jpxxx
I've played this - its wonderful. Soothing, quiet, a little quirky. The +
expansion pack is a total disappointment but the game itself is well done,
cleverly designed, and genuine fun.

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georgehaake
We whipped through it with minimal assistance given to my 6 and 8 year old
boys. It's good. Need's to go deeper and a bit longer in my opinion.

