
The cult of rotary mixers - richardwcollins
https://www.residentadvisor.net/features/3275
======
antris
I've been playing records for a few years and have had the pleasure of playing
with a DJR400. Some personal additions to the article I'd like to share:

1\. The physical feel of the device is amazing. Every knob feels and looks
both smooth and incredibly sturdy. It's like the difference between driving a
Mazda and a Porsche. Madza might be more versatile, practical, and cost-
effective. But which one of them is more fun to use?

2\. Simpler design. Sometimes less is more, especially at DJ gigs. The article
kind of hints at this, but part of the feel is not just the quality of the
parts but how little (visible) parts the device has. Just compare how the Xone
(one of the most respected lines of mixers) looks:
[https://i.pinimg.com/474x/35/52/dd/3552dd4fbb206be6a4425523e...](https://i.pinimg.com/474x/35/52/dd/3552dd4fbb206be6a4425523e9a26b10
--dj-animation-dj-sound.jpg) to the DJR-400:[http://www.electronique-
spectacle.com/media/DJR400.jpg](http://www.electronique-
spectacle.com/media/DJR400.jpg) Yet the tools in DJR-400 are just fine. I
definitely wouldn't want a DJR-400 for a 10-hour minimal techno set, but for
blasting out house music in a packed club there might not be anything better
at that price point.

3\. You can do amazing tricks with the above mentioned Xone mixer (you could
argue that it's almost a musical instrument of its own), but the way of
operating reminds me more of a computer than an analogue device. There's a
reason why so many DJs still prefer vinyl. The digital XDJ stations are even
"worse" in this aspect with their LCD touchscreens and endless configuration
options behind menu trees. After a long day sitting on a computer, the last
thing I want is to feel like going to stand next to another computer.

4\. If a problem occurs on an analogue device there are only a few things that
could have gone wrong; there's some dust where there shouldn't be, some cable
is loose, there's problems with electricity or some part is physically bent.
But with these increasingly digital tools it's more like debugging and fixing
a computer with proprietary software. There's an endless amount of error modes
and although the reliability of the high-end models is still excellent, it's
just another thing to keep in the back of your mind when you're trying to
focus on your music and expression. The new rotary mixers are a statement
against this trend of increasing digitalisation that has entered the mixer
market, too.

~~~
jen729w
> After a long day sitting on a computer, the last thing I want is to feel
> like going to stand next to another computer.

Utterly tangential, but this is why some of us still love shooting 35mm film.

~~~
ghostly_s
...or why some of use shoot on manual-forward digital lines like the Fuji
X-Series. :) I basically never look at the menus, and have never once felt
like I had to 'debug' my camera.

~~~
jen729w
Yes! Have you seen the Leica M10-D? Oh man I’d like that.

[http://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M10-D](http://en.leica-
camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M10-D)

No screen. It has a wind lever! (I asked in the shop, it just functions as a
thumb-stop. Shame it doesn’t have a true Leica fabric shutter...)

------
GarvielLoken
I thought this was gonna be about blenders :(

~~~
scotty79
I expected it to be about Kitchen Aid. They have cult like following.

~~~
MisterOctober
Same here. KA stand mixers are a de rigeur status item / badge that says "Hey,
we've attained a certain socioeconomic status but we're not flashy about it!
We just wanna make some pizza dough."

I'm a victim of this cult myself, and like everybody else I know who has one,
ours gets used probably three or four times per year, max. It's such a
cumbersome appliance to deal with that most of the time, I just use a fork and
mixing bowl.

edit : also the noise is awful -- can't use it after bedtime unless I wanna
wake the bambino

------
weinzierl
One feature that faders have is clear visual and haptic feedback - a thing
that is not as clear with knobs. For rotary controls not only are the markings
smaller if they exist at all but you have to deal with angles instead of
distances, for which we know from studies of pie charts for example, our
brains are not well equipped for. Then there is the problem that for haptics
you need a marking on the circumfence which you can't see in every position,
so you need another marker on top - I,ve rarely seen this design. I assume a
blind person could use a fader easily but not necessarily a knob.

Where all of this becomes relevant is when we consider digital controllers. If
we accept knobs without any visual and physical markings at all we gain an
important feature - we can save and recall pot positions. Visual feedback can
be regained with a display or a ring of LEDs around the knob or both. With a
physical fader all of this is hard to achieve. You need motorized faders,
which exist, but are expensive and have a bunch of disadvantages.

~~~
laumars
I think you've covered the real crux of it. Any DJ worth their salt can switch
between faders and rotaries but faders do offer an additional visual feedback
plus are a little easier for doing some turntablism effects (which is why I
tend to favour faders when given an option between the two). However rotaries
really come into their own on digital mixers / MIDI controllers.

~~~
mxfh
First it signal's "I don't do superfluous effects and scratches even if I
wanted." The boutique type mixer has a whole different niche market than most
comparably mass market mixers.

Also with faders it's easier to do audible mistakes (especially when not
sober) since smooth linear motion seems harder to control, than a mapping to
rotary motion. And they're harder to accidentally move, (and kids stay away
from them, since they dont know what to do).

Let just look at the recently announced Denon Prime 4 all in one solution.
Looks great on concept, specs and useful features, but still manages to look
like a flashy plastic toy in.

~~~
thirdsun
> First it signal's "I don't do superfluous effects and scratches even if I
> wanted."

I wish that included the kind of DJs that can't resist driving their isolators
hard every 30 seconds.

------
empath75
All mixers use almost all rotary controls — the only non rotary controls on
most mixers are the channel faders and the cross fader. The primary advantage
of a channel fader not being rotary is that you can see at a glance where it’s
at, and quickly move from one setting to another to a rough level of
precision. When you’re doing hip hop or certain kinds of house mixing (think
your classic Chicago house style like Bad Boy Bill), that’s essential. You’re
just banging through records a couple minutes at a time, and your hands are
off the mixer all the time in your record bag or whatever.

I used to be a progressive house or trance dj, though and I was playing 10
minute records with 3-4 minute transitions and I tended to have my hands on
the mixer all the time making minute adjustments, so a rotary mixer with the
finer control made more sense.

All the nonsense about sound quality is just bullshit. Nobody at a night club
gives a shit about sound quality, as long as like your record needle is clean
and you aren’t doing obvious bullshit like pushing the sound into the red.

I was a DJ for five or 6 years— I played everything from dive bars to mega
clubs for thousands of people. I’ve talked to hundreds of DJ’s about djing,
including very well known names. I’ve never once had a conversation with any
of them about audiophile stuff in the context of a club. Some of them are into
it in their home studios, but when you’re talking about mixers and turntables—
it’s only about user interface issues (or the quality of the effects add ons)

~~~
jjulius
There has been a renewed focus at parties over the last few years,
particularly within the minimal techno scene and especially in the Romanian
subset of that genre, on quality sound at parties.

Granted, those parties and that music are designed specifically for "the
heads", so they're few and far between in the larger picture of club culture,
but they do manage to throw a lot of festivals (see: Sunwaves) with thousands
of people that have impeccable sound.

~~~
timc3
20 years ago UK raves/festivals used to advertise what systems they had as
much as the DJs playing. It’s not a new thing. I remember deciding that I
would rather go to certain places not based on who was playing but that they
had a Turbosound rig.

------
l33tbro
Audiophile stuff is so often a bunch of baloney, but a vintage Bozak or Urei
rotary actually does sound superior to modern mixers in a pretty noticeable
way. Even for colder electronic stuff like minimal techno, I think the
discrete components make things sound rounder and just more pleasant.

Maybe the best rotary mixers being built today are by a guy in Adelaide,
Australia (1). You'll have to wait 3 months (at least) for him to build it.

(1) [https://condesaelectronics.com/product-
category/mixers/](https://condesaelectronics.com/product-category/mixers/)

~~~
cellover
This reminds me of the best Midi sequencer in the world that is being built by
Sequentix: the Cirklon (1): a no compromise hardware sequencer hand built and
built to last, with unique features. The waiting list is around 6 to 10
months!

(1) [https://www.sequentix.com/shop/cirklon-hardware-
sequencer](https://www.sequentix.com/shop/cirklon-hardware-sequencer)

~~~
laumars
I've never spent more than £150 on a MIDI controller and have taken mine on
the road on many occasions for live performances too.

~~~
enneff
The Cirklon is not a midi controller, but a sequencer. There is nothing else
on the market with its same feature set and build quality. It is a wonderful
device and there’s a reason they are so crazily popular.

~~~
laumars
It’s still just a MIDI controller at its heart. But in any case MIDI
sequencers aren’t a new thing. You could achieve the same thing with an Atari
ST.

Your point about build quality is the crux of the matter. These things are
essentially just clocks and like with clocks you could buy a £5 budget wrist
watch or a Rolex. People who wear and use their watch daily will justify the
price tag of decent watch because it’s sturdier, prettier and they can afford
it. But that doesn’t mean one watch tells the time differently to another. And
equally a sturdier built MIDI sequencer doesn’t make a blind bit of different
to the sound quality of hardware it triggers. Which was the point I (and the
former poster) was making.

Now I’m not criticising those who do want nice audio equipment - we do the
same thing in IT with dev laptops and give a whole plethora of “reasons” why.
Like I said earlier, if you’re going to use something regularly then why
wouldn’t you want to use something nice?

~~~
enneff
Just because it can send MIDI messages does not make it a "MIDI controller".
In fact, you can use it entirely without sending MIDI messages at all (with
its control voltage interface). You're drawing a long bow.

It's not just about the build quality. It's about the interface. It's a very
elegant and thoughtfully designed sequencer and there's nothing else quite
like it.

The Rolex comparison is ridiculous, because Rolex watches don't even keep good
time. They're overpriced jewellery. The Cirklon is not even expensive for what
it is.

~~~
laumars
> _Just because it can send MIDI messages does not make it a "MIDI
> controller"._

Technically it does. In the very literal sense. Perhaps what you meant to say
is that this is more than just a MIDI controller? In which case I'm still
waiting for you to example how (without referencing "build quality", which was
never in dispute).

> _In fact, you can use it entirely without sending MIDI messages at all (with
> its control voltage interface)._

VC is just what people used before MIDI was a thing. Does anyone actually
still use VC or does this device just support it for compatibility with 40+
year old hardware? In any case, citing VC as a reason it's not a MIDI
controller isn't a hugely convincing argument given the two are equatable and
MIDI superseded VC decades ago.

> _It 's not just about the build quality. It's about the interface. It's a
> very elegant and thoughtfully designed sequencer_

Personally I'd still class that as part of the built quality if you're just
listing off qualities like "elegant". But I will concede that there is a lot
of profession gear out there with software that would make most techies
scratch their head in confusion.

> _and there 's nothing else quite like it._

But what is it about that sequencer that is so unique? I’ve not played on that
device so happy to take your word for it if you had but from what I’ve seen on
their blurb it doesn't sound like it offers anything I wasn't already doing on
my Atari ST in the 90s - let alone any of the hardware I've owned since.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I fully embrace people
buying nice hardware if want. And I agree that 1.5k isn't significant for high
end gear. But my point was that you can accomplish the same thing for a
fraction of the price (with no dip in sound quality either) if you're not
fussed about build quality. You claim you couldn't - and you might be right
about that. But whenever you're pressed to give examples you just keep coming
back to build quality, which was the one thing that was never in question.

> _The Rolex comparison is ridiculous, because Rolex watches don 't even keep
> good time. They're overpriced jewellery._

I don’t buy watches so you’d have to excuse my ignorance there but I do feel
you’ve completely missed the point of what an “analogy” is meant to be (ie
they’re not a literal like for like in ever detail).

~~~
enneff
> But whenever you're pressed to give examples you just keep coming back to
> build quality, which was the one thing that was never in question.

Huh? This is the first time I've been asked to give any examples.

The build quality is fantastic, but it's the workflow (the interface design)
that makes the Cirklon special (and so sought-after). There are plenty of
other sequencers that can get you the same result, but music is all about the
process of getting there.

> VC is just what people used before MIDI was a thing.

You should look at what's happening in the modular (specifically Eurorack)
scene. Control voltage is back, with a vengeance. Most Cirklon users I know
primarily use its CV interface.

It seems like you're just really out of touch. Look up some reviews or youtube
videos if you want to learn more.

> I'm not trying to be argumentative here.

You're failing ;-)

~~~
laumars
> _There are plenty of other sequencers that can get you the same result, but
> music is all about the process of getting there._

Yes, I completely relate to that. I tried for a long time to make Linux DAWs
work for me but I just hated the process.

> _You should look at what 's happening in the modular (specifically Eurorack)
> scene. Control voltage is back, with a vengeance. Most Cirklon users I know
> primarily use its CV interface._

> _It seems like you 're just really out of touch. Look up some reviews or
> youtube videos if you want to learn more._

Yes, does sound like I'm out of touch. Thank you, I will do.

------
H1Supreme
This article has surfaced some of my current frustrations with the DJ Mixer
landscape. I've been DJ'ing (mostly mixing at home) for 20 years now. Started
with a cheap Gemini, and got a Pioneer DJM-300 shortly after

I used that DJM-300 from probably 99-2014. It was an absolute tank. Aside from
two crossfader replacements, it didn't have any issues. If the RCA's didn't
get smashed in as result of a drop, I'd probably still use it.

Since then, it seems like anything under $1000 is going to have extremely poor
quality potentiometers and channel faders. Even with big names like Pioneer,
their low end mixers are almost guaranteed to have scratchy pots and faders in
under a year. And, brands like Numark will have scratchy pots in two months.

Which, is hard for me to understand. I built two mixers for my eurorack
modular setup probably 5 years ago, and used alpha pots (which are considered
cheap, and cost $1/piece). No scratchy pots at all; and they get considerably
more usage than my DJ setup.

I've been passively looking for something to diy, but none of the offerings
are aimed at a 3-band EQ DJ setup. I'll probably break open my current mixer
and replace all the pots, but it's sad that I need to do such a thing.
Especially considering the retail cost of parts will be $10.

~~~
dds-dds
Just on the off-chance my long search for the _right_ mixer helps anyone else:
I own the Formula One FF-4000, which can be switched from fader to rotary by
just a few screws and then swapping the board. (Provided you bought the
optional board). (1)

The sound is beautiful, the EQ/Filter is extremely smooth, though some prefer
more bite to their EQ's (a la Technics SH-EX1200), this EQ is quite
transparent. The build quality is high and solid, the pots feel weighty in a
good way, plus I find the FX routing to be intuitive and flexible (which is
one of my bugbears about DJ mixers). Yeah OK, they're not as cool as the
DJM-400;) but for my setup it's a joy to work with. They build to order, so it
can be a few weeks wait, well it was for me. Luckily I live close by their
workshop and got chance to go in to check on the build. Oh, they also make a 6
channel version too.

(1) [https://www.funktion-one.com/products/ff4000-dj-
mixer/](https://www.funktion-one.com/products/ff4000-dj-mixer/)

------
hugozap
Rotary knobs are great, I created a react component inspired by them.
[https://github.com/hugozap/react-rotary-
knob](https://github.com/hugozap/react-rotary-knob)

------
vidanay
And to think....all I want is a 6/12 channel stereo mixer with 3.5mm jacks so
that I can combine my PC's and ham radio(s) signals into one common set of
speakers.

~~~
bichiliad
This may just do it, and it has one of the smallest formfactors I've seen in a
mixer that supports 18 channels.

~~~
bichiliad
Ugh, forgot to share the link: [https://reverb.com/item/6503874-midiman-
micromixer-18-18-cha...](https://reverb.com/item/6503874-midiman-
micromixer-18-18-channel-mixer-12-channel-3-stereo-pairs-ultra-compact-low-
profile-mixer)

------
janci
By the title I expected the article to be about kitchen blenders, as they are
called mixers in my mother tongue. Do native speakers have this confusion?

~~~
yesenadam
Yes, I thought that too hehe, Australian here. My friend uses a Thermomix in
our kitchen to do everything - I can hear it now - they're absolutely a cult.
:-)

~~~
taneq
We had a Thermomix, it died (started coming up with errors) and it was out of
warranty so obviously I disassembled it. You would not believe how many
cockroaches were living (and had died) inside it. Ick.

------
perilunar
Growing up my mum had a Kenwood. Massive beast of a machine. Fully analogue
controls. Sounded terrible, but very loud. Could take your arm off if you
weren't careful. Even had a mincer attachment.

Not really sure how you would make a non-rotary mixer TBH.

~~~
fipple
Do you mean a Kenmore? Because a Kenwood would be an audio mixer like this
article is talking about :D

~~~
unwind
See [https://www.kenwoodworld.com/en-int](https://www.kenwoodworld.com/en-
int), they're a pretty high-end brand.

