
Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT - magsafe
http://ozar.me/2012/10/why-im-returning-my-microsoft-surface-rt/
======
Anechoic
"The diagonally-oriented camera is strange. In the one orientation it’s
optimized for, it’s slightly annoying. In any other orientation, it’s almost
intolerable. "

"The built-in front-facing camera for Skype is angled so that it’ll work great
when the kickstand is open, but again, only for Danny DeVito, or maybe for
people who want to show off their chests in Skype."

\------

"The Touch Cover is one of the Surface’s biggest innovations. I thought I
would hate it, but I didn’t. It’s not like typing on a completely flat
surface: each “key” is raised slightly, so while there isn’t any mechanical
feedback, it does feel a bit like a keyboard."

"The Type Cover (the one with real keys) just works. I’ve got big hands that
often struggle on undersized keyboards, but I can type very quickly on the
Type Cover."

\------

"He showed me Office, which was almost unusable: it was extremely sluggish,
and touch targets were tiny and difficult to hit."

"So quickly, in fact, that I can outrun Microsoft Word on the Surface. I get
the feeling that the Surface RT’s CPU or Word code just can’t keep up with my
typing. Here’s an example video:"

\-------

"The standard gestures don’t help, requiring many in-from-the-edge swipes that
not only aren’t discoverable"

"After waiting over a minute for the machine to boot and launch the mail app,
I got a blank gradient screen. User interface 101: if the app needs to be set
up on the first launch, offer to do that, please. Folks from Twitter suggested
that I swipe out from the right side and click Accounts"

\--

So, can we conclude that these observations might be real (V. 1) problems
without resorting to ad-homs regarding the author?

~~~
Splines
> _"So quickly, in fact, that I can outrun Microsoft Word on the Surface. I
> get the feeling that the Surface RT’s CPU or Word code just can’t keep up
> with my typing. Here’s an example video:"_

I'm on the Word team in Office and I'm coming into this thread incredibly
late, but FWIW the slow typing on ARM was something we couldn't fully address
in time for the preview release. Word RTM (ARM and x86/x64) has _much_ better
performance.

One of the challenges we had was that for a large majority of the product
cycle we didn't even _know_ about the Surface. We were looking at ARM early
on, but the hardware we had was prerelease hardware from MSFT partners that
had varying levels of performance.

Even now we don't know a whole lot about the Surface. It's a little
frustrating, since we (Office) hit RTM we're eagerly awaiting the point at
which new Surface RTs will have Office RTM baked into them. The preview
release is seriously many many months old from the RTM release, and it's
painful to think that _this_ is what customers are going to see from Office
when they turn on their shiny new device.

~~~
stevesi
This issue is known, intermittent and dependent on a number of factors. It has
been addressed and an update is forthcoming.

This type of issue would be identical across NVIDIA based ARM PCs and large
numbers of the reference platforms were available at the same time they have
been available to external developers.

Developers on the Office team (and Word team) that needed to contribute to the
ARM focused work had access to the tools and hardware needed, including
Surface specific hardware. There was no shortage of knowledge, hardware, or
communication.

~~~
zohebv
Off topic comment. Just tried the surface RT at the Microsoft store today. I
think its awesome. I am considering the surface PRO for purchase. However, I
am concerned that I cannot use it as a "laptop" i.e. balance the surface while
typing with the keyboard on my lap. This is probably 50% of my usage scenario.
If there is a heavier version of typecover that can support the tablet without
a kickstand when placed on the lap I would rush out to buy the Pro version.

~~~
rlu
I can type on my lap with touch cover just fine. Not quite as fast as when on
a desk but I think that is true (for me) even with normal laptops. I think it
just has to do with the angle that your arms/hands are in.

I was also a little skeptical but I was pleasantly surprised by how natural
and easy it felt.

------
mtgx
You'll probably return that one, too, after you see the poor battery life on
it. Also, you may get _some_ tablet usability with Metro on it (not many apps
to choose from, though), but after using Windows 8 on a PC, I can say Windows
8 is _worse_ in usability than Windows 7, so you will be definitely taking a
step back when you'll be using the desktop mode.

After using Windows 8 I just see no good reason for anyone to use it on an old
PC instead of Windows 7. I only see drawbacks, such as the forced Metro
interface, and the inconsistencies in the desktop mode UI, which seem like a
patched-up job done 6 months before the release or something, to make it more
"Metro".

~~~
hnriot
That's what everyone said about windows 7 and XP and NT ... People always are
afraid of change until they get used to it. Metro is really just a replacement
start button, if you give it some time so it's familiar you'll be fine.
Everyone hated the start button back when too.

~~~
citricsquid
I don't have an opinion either way, but this stands out to me:

> That's what everyone said about windows 7

Did people say that about Windows 7? I remember Vista was awful and nobody
liked it and people were (naturally) apprehensive about Windows 7 prior to
release but from what I recall -- granted my memory could be poor -- Windows 7
was well received at release and I don't know of anyone off hand that had
problems with it but I can name quite a few that complained about Vista.
Although I guess it could be argued that Windows 7 wasn't anything _new_ , it
was just Vista but how Vista _should_ have been...

------
powertower
Surface with Windows RT is supposed to be a stripped down version of Windows,
that runs 99% in Metro-mode, not Desktop-mode.

Right now there are two exceptions to this: Office (preview version - buggy)
and a Desktop-mode version of IE. Everything else is 100% Metro. And I don't
think you can even install anything yourself on it except via it's App Store.
Hence it's Desktop-mode is not really there for the benefit of the consumer.
And the Office offering will need to be further ported and refined for RT
before everything is worked out. I'm not even sure why they put Office on it.

It's a device made mostly for browsing the internet and running some apps
while holding it in your hands. Which is what the bigger market is for.

While this was a good and honest review, I think his use-case is off on this
one and he will be better suited waiting for Surface with Windows 8 Pro.

I would also be curious to know what his height is, so I'd know what "for
short people" means... The pics I've been able to find of the author, he's at
least 6'2", maybe even 6'5".

If you are as toll as the author, you could probably either move the device
away a bit, zoom out the image, or perhaps put something underneath it's stand
to angle it properly.

~~~
BrentOzar
Brent the author here. I'm 6'3".

I can move the Surface RT away from me to the point where I'm fully in the
camera, but then I can't reach the keyboard. That doesn't quite work.

~~~
powertower
Do you think it's possible to mod the plastic peace that is the back-stand by
shortning it? Is it removable or replacable itself? Could be a good
kickstarter idea... "Surface RT stand for tall people."

~~~
BrentOzar
It's made out of a very solid-feeling metal (VaporMG), and it feels like it'd
be quite difficult to shorten. I do really like the idea of replacing it with
a shorter piece though.

------
dangrossman
I'm excited about the prospect of a Windows 8 tablet. I'm willing to spend as
much as it costs to get one. Unfortunately, nobody wants my money.

Yesterday was the big retail launch. I was on a mission to check out what my
local stores had and, if they had anything that could do the job for me, buy
it. I've always wanted a tablet, but only if it could be as useful as a laptop
when paired with a keyboard. The new Windows 8 tablets are supposed to be just
that.

Best Buy had one (1) Windows 8 tablet. It was a Asus Vivo Tab running Windows
RT... supposedly. I don't want an RT tab, and this store didn't even have a
working floor model of the one tablet they were selling. The one they had was
stuck on a "failed to automatically repair Windows" screen. It was also glued
to the display stand so I couldn't pick it up and get a feel for the hardware.

OfficeMax had zero (0) Windows 8 tablets. Heck, they had no Windows 8 touch
screen laptops either. Or price tags. Or product specs. Or anything I could
play with, really. There was one employee there setting up a display model of
some laptop while complaining to another about how they were supposed to have
tags for the computers but had none. Their electronics section was a joke.

Staples had one (1) Windows 8 tablet. It was a Samsung ATIV running Windows 8.
Success! I actually spent some time playing with this one. Again, I couldn't
really get a feel for the hardware, or specifically the weight, given it's got
a pound of security alarms and tethers bolted onto the back chaining it to the
display area. Beyond that, the specs just weren't up to snuff -- with 2GB RAM
and 64GB storage, I'd just barely be able to run enough software to
occasionally use it as a portable development machine. With nothing installed
on it, there was only 14GB of free space -- the OS and preinstalled apps were
using 50GB of the 64GB out of the box.

So all those trips were a waste of time. There's no Microsoft Store anywhere
within 4 hours of me, so those 3 were the full range of retail options here.

I'm basically looking for a Surface Pro (Intel Core processor, 4GB RAM, 128GB
storage). It's amazing that despite knowing Microsoft would be building this,
nobody else built something comparable, and stores aren't carrying even the
few tablets/hybrids they did build.

~~~
ephermata
(Disclosure: Microsoft employee writing this on a Surface with Touch Cover)

Check out the Samsung Series 7 slate. 128GB SSD, 4GB RAM, core i5. 11.6 inches
and a little less than 2 lbs. Unfortunately I don't know where you could find
one in person to play with. I've been using it with Win8 for a bit and quite
liked it -- with the dock and a keyboard you can run Visual Studio just fine.

This link suggests Samsung just rev'd it to add a higher res screen, keeping
the 4 GB RAM and 128 SSD. [http://www.bestsalenewreviews.com/Samsung-
Series-7-XE700T1C-...](http://www.bestsalenewreviews.com/Samsung-
Series-7-XE700T1C-A01US-Slate-ATIV-Smart-PC-Pro-700T-Reviews)

It is too bad that they haven't figured out distribution for your area. It
does sound like what you want.

~~~
emp_
Looking at the Series 7 right now at Amazon [1], the Surface Pro version of
this with a similar spec would be nice for the Type Cover, and note that this
has similar tech specs as my 2011 Macbook Air, indeed a very promising
replacement for Air+iPad, I'll keep watching but will skip this iteration
simply for having purchased the iPad 3 recently. (.NET Developer here)

[1]: [http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Series-
XE700T1A-A02US-11-6-Inc...](http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Series-
XE700T1A-A02US-11-6-Inch-Premium/dp/B006KYY1AU)

------
ConstantineXVI
I've had mine since 10AM yesterday; and I'm actually fairly pleased, at least
for effectively being a new platform. Thoughts, in no particular order:

\- Love the build. Very solid overall.

\- 16:9 means it's one long tablet. Oddly, it's actually fairly usable in
portrait; can't say the same for my old 16:10 Transformer (maybe just better
balanced?)

\- The touch cover is, like most say, surprisingly usable. Desperately needs a
way to no-op Caps Lock though.

\- Screen res lower than iPad, but still usable. Difference not near as
noticeable as between iPad 2/3, but too many factors in play to make an
objective call there.

\- Metro takes getting used to, but I like it (even with KB/trackpad).

\- It's the first time I've seen proper desktop Gmail and Google Docs usable
in a tablet browser.

\- Performance is generally decent. Not blazing, but decent.

\- Windows RT appears to still contain far more of Windows than we've been led
to believe. Even `csc` is installed, but missing a few dlls.

\- No SSH client for Metro yet. That's one of the risks you take on a new
platform (esp. a non-Unix one), but still aggravates me.

\- Snapping is very, very handy; nice solution to bring proper multitasking to
a tablet UI.

\- When touch-scrolling over on desktop apps (what few remain), the entire
window "bounces" at the head/tail of the content. Odd decision.

\- No central notification bin (like Android's shade or iOS's Notification
Center). Have to rely on scanning Live Tiles if you miss anything.

\- The back camera seems to exist only to make the iPad 2's back camera feel
better about itself. Has to be the blockiest camera I've ever seen.

\- Handwriting recognition is pretty solid. Wacom junkies will be very pleased
when so-equipped tablets ship. (Capacitive styli still suck)

\- None of the Twitter apps have really thrilled me. Given the circumstances,
I'm not that surprised.

\- OS-level share support is a smart move; similar to Android's impl but more
thorough (sharing pops up a share pane from your selected app in the sidebar,
instead of bouncing you out of your current app entirely).

\- Printing is mildly unintuitive; you have to open the "Devices" charm and
pick your printer. No one is going to guess that's how to print.

\- On the bright side, our network printer/scanner was detected and installed
immediately, with zero user intervention. Very, very far cry from the WinXP
days.

\- There's no way to see your precise battery life outside of the desktop (in
the classic sys-tray).

\- Presumably due to the use of pressure sensors vs. capacitive, the Touch
Cover isn't quite as accurate without a solid surface underneath.

\- If you're not using the keyboard (watching movies, etc.), flip the cover
backwards with the kickstand out and it's nearly as stable as a laptop.

\- The intro tells you about the basic edge swipes (right for charms, left for
app switcher, top/bottom for menu); not mentioned is swiping straight from
top-center to bottom kills the current app.

\- Screenshot is Win+VolDown.

\- Wordament can be played while snapped. This is dangerous.

\- IE lets you swipe on the outer edge of the page for back/forward, which
would be smart if this didn't occasionally clash with the app switcher.

Questions?

(PS: I typed this entire post on the Touch Cover.)

~~~
cgcardona
Nice review. I've spent the last 6 weeks working on a Windows 8 app. I've been
using a dell box and samsung tablet with visual studio and a wired
mouse/wireless keyboard so I can speak first hand about what it's like to use
the 'desktop' part of Windows 8 for serious work.

 _Disclaimer: I've been a web developer for 4 years and have used a Mac during
that whole time. Before that the only experience I had with windows was a
typing class in high school and casually using it at people's houses. I don't
have a bunch of Windows experience. This was the first native windows app that
I've ever created. Also I've been using a full blown copy of WIndows 8 which
is different than WinRT. Any of the mentions of 'desktop' software below won't
run on a WinRT device._

Truthfully I'm not entirely sold on the idea of having a full blown computer
in a tablet. Sure if was convenient for me to travel with the tablet and then
when I got to a desk just plug in a mouse and attach a wireless keyboard but
something still seemed incorrect.

More than once I was showing a workmate some code and absentmindedly touched
the screen which highlighted the code and rearranged the order or cut it to
the clipboard. Granted I'll develop the muscle memory to deal with that issue
over time but I thought it worth noting that my initial reaction to having a
'full' computer on a tablet was negative.

Though I agree with you 100% that there is more "Windows" in here than we've
been led to believe. In fact I found that only when launching apps did I
interact with the metro start screen. Other than that I could just alt+tab
right past it. All of the apps that I was using (sans the app that I was
actually developing) were 'desktop' apps: Internet Explorer 10, File Explorer,
Visual Studio 2012, cigwin and Tortoise SVN.

FWIW I like the traditional desktop version of IE10 much better than the new
metro version of IE10. Which version of IE10 do you prefer? Have you done any
app development?

The app that we created was built on the HTML5/CSS3/Javascript stack.Just like
a webapp you build the UI in HTML/CSS and wire it together with javascript.
There's a suite of UI elements in the WinJS.UI namespace that you can quickly
build the UI with. You can also access the hardware and the Windows Runtime
from javascript APIs.

The development experience was a real eye opener. The high level take away is
that all the talk over the past 5 years about HTML5 eventually being used to
create applications that could rival their native counterparts is finally
coming to fruition.

You can build a Windows 8 app in either the native or the web stack and they
will have nearly 100% feature parity. I've been considering making the switch
from being a web developer to being a native app developer recently because
I've been feeling limited by the browser. I've just wanted to get deeper
access to the hardware and the OS and windows 8 fulfils that need.

Unfortunately they completely mangle the DOM and inject insane amounts of
useless markup and attribute/values which make the semantic web geek inside of
you die a little each time the app compiles and runs.

A small example--in my code I had a button that was a child of a div. It was
literally two lines of HTML. After the app 'built' I couldn't get an event
listener that was listening for an event on the child button to fire.

I used the DOM inspector to check out what was happening and not only had the
compiler injected about 20 lines of html around each of my elements complete
with dozens of data-foo attributes—it didn't even maintain the parent/child
relationship from my markup! You can imagine how disconcerting it is to doubt
that the core relationships of your markup aren't going to be maintained.

If you have time check out the app I helped created-Trulia for Windows 8:
[http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/en-US/app/trulia-real-
estat...](http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/en-US/app/trulia-real-estate-homes-
for/aaa2a256-90ca-4abd-938f-3788f598a235)

~~~
ConstantineXVI
I actually prefer the Metro IE; simply because I'm using this more from the
tablet angle than a desktop. My primary machine is a 13" MBA; I've got Win8
running in a VM there and I essentially see it as Win7 with a faster Start
Search. I'm in the process of developing a small hobby app right now; but in
C#/XAML (out of familiarity more than anything else). I've done WP7
development once and it was frankly amazing to work with, definitely compared
to the Android stack. So far, my experience with WinRT is pretty close.

PS: app is pretty sharp!

~~~
cgcardona
Thank you!

:-]

If you have a Trulia account and use any of our other apps (www.trulia.com,
m.trulia.com, or any of our iOS/Android phone/tablet apps
<http://www.trulia.com/mobile/>) and save a search or a property that data
will get synced to the Windows 8 app and will show up on the main page (what
we call 'the hub').

You can create an account from within the Windows 8 app from the charms bar.

Also to change your location go to the map view by tapping on a map tile from
the hub.

Once on the map view swipe from the bottom to reveal the app bars. In the
bottom app bar you'll see a tap target for search filter.

Once you filter your search and are on a new location swipe again from the
bottom and tap 'Near Foo' from the app bar at the top.

This will take you back to the hub populated with your new location and nearby
cities.

Search filtering from the hub is coming soon but we didn't have time to get it
in the first release.

Thanks again!

------
pithon
The experience he had trying to save the Word doc looks exactly like me every
time I have to set up "Windows Live" inside a PC game.

Has anyone else tried the SRT? This post alone is enough to scare me away.

~~~
cargo8
I haven't tried the Surface RT specifically, but assuming it's the same or
similar to the Windows 8 / Office 13 preview, the flow he clicked on looks
like he was trying to save something to his Microsoft acct / skydrive (which
is actually much better integrated into the File menu than it used to be), but
I can imagine it is way overwhelming compared to the old-school save dialog...

------
xbryanx
Ahh, so they made Word behave like it does on OS X. Standardization.

~~~
admiralpumpkin
A funny response (truly), but Office on OS X (which I use extensively) never
lags like that for me, even on older Mac hardware (Core Duo from 2006 or so).

~~~
specialist
True. But, anecdotally, I never leave Office programs running, because they
seem to chew thru my battery. I like Entourage better than Mail.app, but use
Mail.app because it sips battery.

------
stevenwei
To me, the user experience issues are the biggest failures of all:

    
    
        - A mail app that opens to a completely blank screen with no cues on how
          to continue.
        - An infinite login dialog that doesn't allow you to cancel and back out.
    

Wanting software that offers a pleasant and intuitive user experience doesn't
mean that you want software that's dumbed down for grandma, and I'm sad that
people are portraying it that way.

I've read my share of man pages and hand written my Xorg.confs many times in
previous lives, I'm no stranger to complex and arcane software setup
procedures.

But in 2012, in the world of smartphones and tablets, this is stuff that
should _just work_. The answer to "the mail app is completely blank on launch"
shouldn't be "sorry, you failed to read the manual". Ever.

And while I greatly respect Microsoft's attempt at entering this market,
someone on their team, at some point, had to look at these issues[1] and say,
"okay, this software is ready to ship anyway". That does not bode well.

[1] The alternative, I suppose, is that no one noticed. Which is even worse.

------
magsafe
An old post from an ex-Microsoftie, which might explain some of this Windows
RT mess:

[http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2011/03/24/first-windows-
phon...](http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2011/03/24/first-windows-phone-update-
only-going-out-to-unlocked-phones/#comment-7276)

------
georgemcbay
I posted about this before:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4660871>

and I still think it is true... IMO Microsoft made a mistake by leading out
with the RT. Leading with the Pro and then offering the RT as a feature-
reduced lower cost version would have cut down on the confusion as to what RT
really is and lessened the initial impression that the Windows 8 experience is
kind of underwhelming.

~~~
pycassa
they want to fill the microsoft store.. so they wanted to get the rt version
first.. and frankly no one will pay attention if any of the OEMs release an RT
tablet/laptop.. simply, they wanted a successful RT tablet.. they decided to
do it themselves..

------
option_greek
This is off topic but, compare this review to the one written by Marco Arment
and you will know the difference between constructive criticism and fanboy-
ism.

~~~
X-Istence
Marco Arment was more showcasing the differences between the Apple store and
the Microsoft store. At the Apple store I can be left alone by simply walking
up to a display and playing with a device. Maybe a sales person will come up
to me and ask me if they can help me, let them know that I am just checking
things out and they leave.

At the Microsoft store you can't get a single moment of privacy with a device
to play with it. The sales person will continue to talk, they will take over
from whatever you are trying to do/play with, they want to discuss specs, they
want to showcase very specific pieces of technology, they never leave you
alone, even if you end up straight up asking.

Granted, Marco's post was slanted in that he is an developer for the Apple
eco-system, but that doesn't mean that his post didn't contain the truth. I
myself have experienced exactly that at the Microsoft stores. They try to hard
to copy the Apple stores, but fall hard.

~~~
shoota
I was just at a Microsoft store this morning and I did not find the above
experience to be true at all. In fact when I stopped by the Apple store the
staff was much more intrusive.

------
gojomo
The advice to "wait for the one due in a few months _that needs a fan_ " makes
me wonder if this author's sweet spot for tablets is anywhere near mine. I
hate fans. (And does such advice mean the author is _literally_ a fan-boy? A
fan-fan-boy?)

~~~
BrentOzar
Brent the author here. When I say wait for the one with a fan, I'm just giving
guidance to people who really want the Windows experience. I hate fans too.

~~~
gojomo
Sure, I understand you weren't touting the fan itself as a benefit and I
appreciated your overall writeup. I just had to share my double-take at seeing
the ideas "will have a fan" and "worth waiting for" so close together.

------
jiggy2011
He seems to be using the Surface RT in desktop mode in that video. I thought
this was not supposed to be possible, is that untrue?

~~~
danieldk
It currently exists for Office, because it isn't fully ported to Metro yet.

~~~
richbradshaw
To be fair, it's not as if the Office team had a heads up that a table would
be sold with marketing specifically explaining that it runs Office, whilst
simultaneously being sold on the new Modern UI. Oh, wait, my mistake.

~~~
ConstantineXVI
The Office team is notorious for getting their way inside MS, from what I
understand. Which could very well include "we won't be touching WinRT with a
40 foot pole".

More practically speaking, "portable" is a word that I highly doubt describes
the Office codebase. If there's a team working on a Metro version, I do not
envy them at all.

------
jimbobimbo
The lag in Word is more likely caused by an option that makes Office use
accelerated graphics. I don't know why this option even exists - I've yet to
see someone liking how typing in Office applications works with it being on...

~~~
mortenjorck
Shouldn't accelerated graphics result in screen redraws that are... faster?

~~~
Too
Usually accelerated graphics are pretty bad at adding new stuff, due to the
overhead of moving things from cpu to gpu. Instead they are crazy fast at
drawing the same stuff over and over again with slight modifications by simply
rotating and moving the already loaded objects.

------
shardling
> I think the kickstand angle was designed for airplane use by short people,
> because the screen hardly goes back at all.

Huh, in the Anandtech review they thought the kickstand worked well everywhere
_except_ airplanes.

~~~
cargo8
He mentions that this again is only for short people, aka he would have liked
for it to tilt back further (see comments about the camera angle)

~~~
what_ever
But usually taller people will have longer hands as well. That would increase
the distance of the keyboard from the user's body and so the angle should
still work.

~~~
uxp
He addressed that issue here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4706767>

He is tall, 6'3", but moving the surface away form him enough results in it
being too far away to type.

------
tjdetwiler
I think it's great to see MS trying something new and exploring interfaces
that aren't just a rip-off or evolution of Apple designs.

------
cboss
Quote: "The problem with Windows "apps" is that they are made inefficient and
un-optimized by default"

As a WIN32 developer for the last ten years I would have to agree that a good
bit of software today for Windows lacks performance. Why ? IMO a lot has to do
with mindset of not only developers, but also those who produce the
programming languages developers use. I would venture to say that most
programmers would admit that the computer they develop on is likely a more
advanced computer than most mass market PC's. They like i5 or i7 CPU's, 8,16
or more gigs of memory, SSD's, etc. The mass market PC though, to be
affordable comes far less equipped. This is why when I write software, my
development PC is closer to a more mass market PC. I need to feel the problems
with performance the moment I compile and run. Now if you write apps which run
fast on a slow PC, imagine how they will run on the higher end devices.

------
dhawalhs
I am extremely happy with the surface RT and more specifically IE10. Finally a
desktop class browser on a tablet.

~~~
grecy
Is safari on the iPad not desktop class?

~~~
rsynnott
I'm a little confused by this, yes. If anything, mobile Safari and Chrome for
Android are more desktop-like than IE10 on WinRT; they have tab bars, and so
forth.

------
BindersFOW
Hi everyone. The author brings up great points and its really important for
MSFT to address the kickstand's adjustability or even adjust the camera angle
automatically. Regarding the other points of the author, i think he should
install the updates after which Office RT becomes a productivity beast. Also,
there is one aspect of the surface and windows 8 in general nobody has touched
in this whole thread which is smartGlass. Coupled with Xbox, this device
becomes a wonderful companion to the vastly improved xbox-kinect bundle and so
far, i really don't have any complaints about it except the fact that i can't
code on it although someone mentioned csc works on it sans some dlls.

------
magic5227
What genius decided RT was a good name? Honestly.

------
hp79
I love my surface, and I have no slowdown in Word and OneNote after installing
the 600MB or so update. I have a touch keyboard.

What I'm disappointed about is that the bottom edge of the glass is not
completely flat. This shows poor build quality, and I expected at least Apple
quality from this device. I also tried a second one, and it also has non flat
glass on the bottom edge. All the demo units had this problem too. Try
reflecting a straight line on that part of the screen and you will know what I
mean. It does bug me a bit because I expect a high standard for a $600 ARM
tablet.

------
goodereader
We did a review of the surface tablet here -
[http://goodereader.com/blog/tablet-slates/review-of-the-
micr...](http://goodereader.com/blog/tablet-slates/review-of-the-microsoft-
surface-rt-windows-8-tablet/)

also vs the ipad 3 here - [http://goodereader.com/blog/good-e-reader-
videos/microsoft-s...](http://goodereader.com/blog/good-e-reader-
videos/microsoft-surface-vs-apple-ipad-3/)

the pro might be a better investment, but most of the apps crash/buggy, not
really worth being an early adopter with this product.

------
stcredzero
From the comments:

 _> I admit, I fully expected a tablet version of my laptop. I wanted it to do
everything my laptop could do, but with the added bonus of the touch screen,
so I can play my games that make my phone freeze up while I’m sitting at my
kids dance or karate classes._

If you're technically savvy enough to understand and follow focus of GUI
elements, and don't mind a stylus, then there are a number of existing tablets
that will fit this bill. In fact, they've been around since ~2000.

~~~
sliverstorm
Yes, laptop tablets have a touch screen, but they are really just not the same
thing. Have you used one much? Unless they've made huge progress in the last
few years, a laptop tablet is like a laptop, upon whose screen you can WRITE
with a stylus. They are not touch devices like we think of today.

~~~
stcredzero
Have you used an early 2000's stylus tablet like a tc1100? I'm talking about
those, not touch screen laptops.

[http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tr/gallery/hptr1105/Image00021_...](http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tr/gallery/hptr1105/Image00021_small.jpg)

 _> a laptop tablet is like a laptop, upon whose screen you can WRITE with a
stylus. They are not touch devices like we think of today._

Please re-read. I am saying exactly this. The only way they are alike is they
are somewhat in the same class of portability. The tc1100 is a beast at 3
pounds, but you can actually watch YouTube and browse the web in bed with one.
I know, because I've done it. Doesn't work for the general public because
ordinary people can't keep track of GUI item focus.

------
joejohnson
I was excited when I heard Microsoft was making a tablet and entering this
market. Apple doesn't face any strong competition in this market, and because
they are so far ahead of their nearest rival (Samsung?) they don't really need
to innovate for a cycle or two, and their designs could stagnate.

But the Surface will not be true competition to Apple. This product fails in
too many ways, and I predict that the iPad will remain dominant for at least a
few years to come.

------
paul9290
I was thinking of making this my next PC purchase, but after watching a video
in this blog post I see i would be forced to use the touchscreen as there is
not a built in trackpad on that cover/keyboard thing.

Overall the design looked cool, as I am interested in tablet with an attached
keyboard with a trackpad. Though I want a tablet/PC type of device that allows
me to use it as a tablet or a PC laptop. I guess the Surface is not what I
imagined.

~~~
ConstantineXVI
Except it does have a trackpad. It's right there below the spacebar. It's
tiny, but it's there and it works.

------
mladenkovacevic
Bugginess and software weirdness aside, the thing that struck me as most
awkward is the keyboard/touch interface paradigm. It required him floating his
entire arm to reach out and touch specific dialogues. This seems like a huge
sacrifice of touch precision and a strain on your arm. I predict that most
people get a Bluetooth mouse for it and use it in either laptop mode or tablet
mode - not a combination of both.

~~~
BrentOzar
I've heard that complaint (gorilla arm) as a big detractor for touch-based
user interfaces, but it didn't bother me much when I was using it. The biggest
change was that I had to adapt - I'm so used to using the touchpad, but the
touchpad on the Surface RT keyboards is just too small. It's easier to point
and touch the screen, and it wasn't too uncomfortable. I'm already used to
using tablets, though, so I might not be the best person to answer that.

My bigger concern was the very tiny touch points on the dialogs, especially in
Office. I repeatedly touched the wrong spots, wrong options, opened the wrong
folders in Explorer, etc.

------
edandersen
Biggest issue so far for me with Surface's WinRT - no alternative browsers, so
no Adblock. I can't believe this is what the desktop web really looks like.

------
Metrop0218
Welcome to the life of an early adopter. It is a bit buggier than we'd like,
but you know we'll receive updates before the year is up that will address a
lot of the problems. I do wish that it could've been shipped with higher
performance, but Windows on ARM was a big endeavor. Achieving the amount of
polish that we see on Intel's chips is going to take a bit of time.

------
brudgers
I bought one of those Microsoft touch mice. I was getting ready to install the
Windows 8 Consumer Preview, and after watching the video, it looked like a
great option...and simultaneously, my Logitech Mouse had a dying mosfet switch
so I was in the market for a new mouse anyway. [Really, I wasn't just
rationalizing buying sexy technology].

It wasn't the first time I've bough I Microsoft mouse. I bought one back about
a decade or so ago when another Logitech mouse died. It suffered the same fate
as the Microsoft touch mouse. It was returned to the store and exchanged for
another Logitech - for exactly the same reason.

Neither was acceptable for my workflow. Unsurprisingly, I spend a meaningful
amount of time using CAD/BIM software. The touch mouse zoomed in when I
adjusted my grip ("drawing" with a mouse largely involves holding it). There
was no way to program the gestures. Likewise, the earlier Microsoft mouse had
lots of buttons, but no way to program the middle button as a middle button -
as an early "many button" mouse, the middle button had some dedicated function
and I had about a decade of muscle memory and projects to push out the door.

The author is experiencing the same thing. The new device isn't tailored to
his workflow. It probably isn't reasonable to expect it to be. It's
competitors aren't; most people don't have a similar workflow; and it's still
version one of the software (Word for RT).

This doesn't excuse the devices performance. But it also puts the author's
experience in perspective. Right now, he's somewhat of an edge use case.

~~~
BrentOzar
Brent the author here. I'd be really curious to hear which portions of my
experience are edge cases - typing in Word, using the camera, and checking my
email don't seem out of the mainstream to me on a tablet whose main market
purports to be workers.

~~~
brudgers
The reality of the current market is that slates are media consumption
devices, not laptop replacements - in so far as one uses their laptop for
productivity.

A person who types frequently enough, fast enough, and in sufficient quantity
to experience a bottle neck with Windows RT's version of Word as a critical
purchase feature, is an edge case...or rather not part of the targeted market
segment at this time. This is little different from Apple's segmentation
between iPad and Macbook Air.

Microsoft appears to recognize this. Hence, the "pro" version in the pipeline,
and which you are considering as better suited to your workflow.

Windows Surface RT is targeted as an alternative to an iPad. Configuration
issues are a one time pain. New software may not work any better than iTunes.
The solution to gorilla arms may not be ideal for everyone. The question is,
are they good enough to make it a general success?

~~~
jitl
> The reality of the current market is that slates are media consumption
> devices

This isn't true, especially for tablets with 10" screen-size. The "media
creation" apps are there, in Apple's App Store, and on Google Play, and people
buy them and use them. My tablet has totally replaced the roll of journals,
planners, and notebooks. I do all my UI sketches on my iPad, wite my school
assignments, take my notes, keep my journal, etc. And millions of other people
do the same on these devices; or at least they want to: Creation apps sell.

> A person who types frequently enough, fast enough, and in sufficient
> quantity to experience a bottle neck with Windows RT's version of Word as a
> critical purchase feature, is an edge case...or rather not part of the
> targeted market segment at this time.

No, Microsoft is marketing the Surface as an iPad alternative that can Do
Buisness Things: It's got a USB port, and it runs Real Office.

------
werdnanoslen
Still waiting on decent linux-capable tablets...

~~~
mtgx
Already here:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItkWCmkxBv0>

However, I would wait at least for Cortex A15 chips to arrive, especially if
you're going to want to use Unity, which isn't exactly a race horse on PC's
either. I'm sure Canonical will port Ubuntu to the upcoming Nexus 10, too.

------
pedro-alejandro
People are using the surface primarily without a mouse, the way a tablet is
supposed to be used. Yet there's still so many tiny touch targets all over the
place when classic Windows stuff pops up. I cringe when I see video reviews of
people trying to laser-tap these and miss a few times until they get it.

------
Groxx
And this is one of the reasons I despise modal dialogs _of all kinds_ :
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=W...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Wwhv8U614Vo&t=2m10s)

When they go bad, they're catastrophically bad.

------
tlogan
I played with Microsoft Surface and my problem with it is that IT IS A LAPTOP.
The interface is pretty much made for laptop (you need to have keyboard), and
size is a little too big for tablet. It is not something I might be using
while watching TV.

It is weird combo of laptop and tablet.

------
trotsky
tl;dr - microsoft word on a brand new cpu architecture, ui style and input
system is a bit laggy.

~~~
ronaldj
Also, you can get locked in the save dialog and can't recover your document in
Word. This seems more serious than the lag.

------
mandelbrot
In the email video he could be seen typing his password. Even though you
cannot see the actual keys the reflection gives some idea about what is being
pressed. Do you think you could guess his password from that?

~~~
BrentOzar
Brent the author here. I use Google's app-specific passwords and I've already
disabled my Surface RT passwords when I boxed it back up this morning. I
salute you though!

------
dzhiurgis
qwerty keyboards were designed to slow down the typists thus preventing
typewriter jamming. Perhaps MS should redesign it again to make it even
slower, so the Surface would be able to keep up?

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
QWERTY wasn't designed to slow down typists it was designed to speed up typist
by preventing jams.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~dcrehr/whyqwert.html>

------
madoublet
Brent, thanks for this. It is odd because Windows 8 Pro is really smooth. Lets
hope someone at Microsoft gets a hold of this and they release an update
sooner-then-later.

------
prayaagk
I don't think his post and reason are highly analytic. Rather its result of
working so hard to find out even smallest issue with Microsoft's new product
No product are perfect in that regard. Remember first iPhone ? first Android ?
first iPad ?

Camera viewpoint doesn't cover your face when you put tablet on kickstand
mode? put it little away. what's wrong. Other leading tablets in market
doesn't even have one. Its been stated design wonder along with cover with
keyboard. Should appreciate instead.

All issues noted in this article are exaggeration except the live sign-in bug
while saving office doc.

~~~
BrentOzar
Brent the author here. "Even the smallest issue" - errr, if the big selling
point of the tablet is the keyboard, and Word can't keep up with me typing,
that's not a small issue for me. I can understand how it would be a small
issue for most folks, because most folks don't use tablets for Office. I
wanted this tablet because it was specifically marketed as the work-friendly
tablet.

If I move the tablet far enough away that I'm in the picture, then I can't
touch the keyboard. That's a problem.

~~~
prayaagk
"Can you honestly tell us you watched the videos?" \- Yes I did. But my main
point is, the post, isn't kinda review. Kickstand issue and mail app issues ,
isn't that big to be dither about. Approach to response should be more sort of
balanced rather than fault-finding and whining.

" it was specifically marketed as the work-friendly tablet." \- But that
doesn't mean that we should expect powerhouse performance and after all its
RT. Wait for pro if you want that performance. At least it is doing something
better than other competition? No one can deny that its better in terms of
"work-ready" than iPad or Android tab. Instead of whining about small issues
why can't be appreciate what they are trying to build ?

"They are not competing against first generation offering. This is not some
child thats needs love and support. This is a commercial product from a for-
profit company at a high price." \- Its something like complaining why new
hybrid car in market not running x miles at xx speed , when a company brings
new hybrid car in market at the time every car maker are busy making gas cars.

There are lots of thing promising about Surface. USB port, Smart Glass, Solid
hardware, Office etc. Following is the post I would call more natural balanced
response. [http://mattblogsit.com/2012/10/27/is-the-microsoft-
surface-f...](http://mattblogsit.com/2012/10/27/is-the-microsoft-surface-for-
me/)

There are flaws out there. But which product in world don't have them. Are
they something, which you can claim that, you are returning your product for ?

------
lnanek2
So...this is a good opportunity to write a word processing app for the Windows
8 store. Score! It's well known what people like with those...

------
Maakuth
I hope someone works around the UEFI secure boot soon, I would be very
interested in having this as a Linux tablet.

------
seanica
I hope he's changed his password. In one of the vids it's fairly easy to
workout what he was typing to login.

------
kyberias
It's as if the author really hurried to return the device so that he can write
the blog article. Insane.

~~~
BrentOzar
Brent the author here. I'm heading out on a two week road trip to speak at a
few conferences. I hurried to get the device usable before I fly out to Vegas
on Sunday for DevConnections, and I started putting it through its paces right
away. I wanted to feel confident that I'd be able to rely on it as a backup
presentation device and leave my iPad at home. After the 2-week road trip, I'm
home for a few days, then out of the country for vacation. I wouldn't be able
to return the Surface easily over the next month, so that's why I made the
decision to bail.

Plus, I gotta be honest - I don't think there's going to be a resale value for
these, so I didn't want to take a $200-$300 bath by selling it on eBay in a
couple of months.

~~~
kyberias
A lot of reasons but none of those are related to the device itself. I think
it's fairly obvious that you could have waited a while and the software (!)
problems you experienced would be fixed with an update. I think you just
originally wanted to write a negative blog post about "returning the device".
Weird.

~~~
greedo
So in other words, the Surface wasn't ready...

------
anonymfus
Update of Office for final version was available at the day of launch. Why you
did not install it?

------
moistgorilla
This is the risk you take by being an early adopter.

~~~
grecy
... of hardware and software that is not ready for prime time.

How disappointed were buyers of the iPhone or iPad 1 ?

Not, I think.

~~~
kyberias
I for one was very disappointed in iPad 1. Your point?

~~~
grecy
What specifically about the iPad was disappointed you?

Was it a) because it was not quite ready for prime time, and subsequent
updates fixed it, or was it b) because it simply didn't (and still doesn't)
have features you wanted?

When the answer is a), that shows a product was rushed and not ready i.e. the
Surface RT from the sounds of this review.

~~~
kyberias
I don't think the choices you offer me are mutually exclusive. A product can
also feel rushed because it lacks important features. The first iPad seemed
very polished: I could scroll the screen and it was super smooth. It's just
that I wanted to do much more than scroll the screen super smoothly. I still
have an iPad but I use a Chromebook much more. Makes so much more sense even
though it has a very plastic and may seem "rushed" to some, it works for me.

~~~
grecy
> A product can also feel rushed because it lacks important features.

I agree, when those features are (were) available and cost effective at the
time of release, AND they are in fact added at a later date, which somewhat
proves they probably should have been added in the first place.

i.e. Complaining the first iPad was "rushed" because it didn't include 4G/LTE
is nonsense.

By that measure, I honestly can't think of an Apple product in the last 5
years that was "rushed", where-as it seems the Surface RT was/is.

------
drivebyacct2
I want a video of people using these as _lap_ tops. That's my biggest fear
about springing for something like these.

Even RT could be tolerable with the right apps as a remote machine with that
keyboard, similar to what people do with Android+Transformer. I can program on
it, work on remote machines.

That having been said, assuming it's somewhat usable on a lap, I'll wait for
the Pro too, I have several things that need x86.

~~~
masklinn
> I want a video of people using these as laptops.

Isn't it exactly what he's doing in the videos?

edit: the second videos (saving a document in word) also makes many tap target
seem laughably small compared to... the guy's fingers to start with. Am I
dreaming?

~~~
BrentOzar
Brent the author here. Yes, the Office tap targets are indeed laughably small.
I recorded a few versions of these videos trying to get the taps right. I
didn't want to upload those because it would look like I'm purposely trying to
tap in the wrong places, and then I'd get flamed for that - when in reality,
the targets are just too small.

~~~
RyJones
I've been using Windows RT and the Office preview for months, and I still have
to try to hit the click targets very carefully. I usually end up using my
pinky, which is still not 100%

------
alpb
Are all the HN upvoters are retarded? This is not Surface RT. RT does not have
a classic Windows Desktop environment. It only has metro.

This is a Surface Pro, which has not been released yet. Slowness is totally
understandable because that guy installed an OS X on an iPad, which is the
same thing as using Win8 full desktop environment on Surface RT hardware.

~~~
rahoulb
You are wrong. windows RT includes the desktop environment but you can't
install any new apps to it - all you have is Office and Explorer.

<http://www.anandtech.com/show/6392/the-windows-rt-review/8>

<http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/23/3537710/windows-8-review>

