
14,400-year-old flatbread remains that predate known agriculture - vinayan3
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/worlds-oldest-bread
======
mirimir
> “Nobody had found any direct evidence for production of bread, so the fact
> that bread predates agriculture is kind of stunning,” says Tobias Richter, a
> University of Copenhagen archaeologist who co-authored the paper. “Because
> making bread is quite labor-intensive, and you don’t necessarily get a huge
> return for it. So it doesn’t seem like an economical thing to do.” That’s
> because breadmaking doesn’t just involve baking: Back then, it would have
> also involved kneading, grinding cereals into fine grains, and dehusking
> plants.

But why would agriculture have developed, if people were't cooking the stuff?
It's true that making bread involves more work than just boiling grain. But
bread also serves as ready-to-eat storage. As does beer. And I can imagine how
both developed more-or-less accidentally from leftover boiled grain.

~~~
stevenwoo
The bread as described in the article was made from relatively finely ground
grain, so unlikely to be accidental, and the article references finds of
similar flatbreads from just a few thousand years later at different
locations.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Someone probably sent their toddler to go rub grain between two rocks to keep
the toddler out of their hair while they butchered a goat or something.

~~~
redtexture
More likely, there were already thousands of years of experience with boiled
grains and related processing of grains to experiment with, and notice the
results of, including fermentation, baking, and other heat-related
consequences of particulate and processed wheat grain.

Just like the experience of fermented milk / yoghurt / cheese -- thousands of
years of experience with the possibilities.

Refrigeration is not comfortable to tent-dwelling nomads.

~~~
mirimir
Oatmeal fried with lots of butter, plus fruit and honey or maple syrup, is
very tasty.

~~~
yesiamyourdad
My recipe for oatmeal: take water, raisins, and nuts if I have them, nuts,
bring to a boil, then turn off the heat and let cool. Irish oats are awesome
this way done overnight. Do it in a crockpot with a large amount and you'll
eat for a week (peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the
pot, nine days old). I'm hungry in the morning. Easy and a little bit sweet
works well.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I've only ever seen that rhyme as "pease pudding hot, ...". Pease, AIUI, is
mixed legumes.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pease_pudding](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pease_pudding)

~~~
Ensorceled
This is literally the first time I’ve heard the rhyme as “pudding”... it’s
always been “pease porridge hot,” in our family for at least five generations
now.

------
dalbasal
Nothing to do with bread but...

Over the last couple of decades, this 10k-15k ybp period has gotten a lot more
interesting. Especially to us romantics, who always want origins to be more
ancient and mysterious. The Natufian Culture now has a lot of sites.
Everything from proof of a predominantly hunter gatherer diet to a full scale
sedentary city, 9,000 year old Jericho. We even know they particularly enjoyed
eating cat, and may have domesticated them for food.

Even more remarkable is the progress in southeastern Turkey. Gobleki Tepeh is
a find on such a scale that it challenges archeologists to re-narrate the
neolithic revolution. Many think that it reverses the old narrative:
Agriculture lead to caloric surpluses, permanent settlements, cities,
organised religions, kings, advanced art, complex mythology... Maybe an
organised religion crowned the first god-kings, designated specialised
societal roles, built temples, then cities, and invented agriculture to
support them.

Near Gobleki Tepeh is Catal Huyuk, a residential "city" archeologically and
temporally similar Jericho. It appears to have been built _after_ Gobleki
Tepeh, a more "ritualistic" site. Perhaps archeologists should be looking for
ancient temple sites, predating Jericho.

Perhaps the Egyptian pattern is to be expected. First, giant ritualistic
projects are undertaken. Politics appears to be simple, the king is a god.
People do what he says. Complexity comes later. Maybe this is normal. Maybe
modes of production follow from modes of culture, to put it in 19th century
terms.

Egypt's old kingdom were the the great builders. Out of "nowhere" they
suddenly take on massive works, million man-year projects. The middle & new
kingdoms were more advanced politically, agriculturally, economically &
militarily. But, the scale of ritualistic sites declined. They still had great
temples, and fine art keeps progressing. Literature proliferates. Law
advances. But, the amount of labour dedicated to pure ritual seems to peak
near the "beginning."

It is a fascinating period. The middle east definitely has its roots here.
Keep up the good work archeologists. We appreciate it, us spectators.

~~~
barking
Why would anyone write ybp instead of ago?

Edit: OK, you'd need to say years ago but still, is this another part of the
dropping the AD and BC tendency?

~~~
dalbasal
erm... IDK... AFAIK, YBP is used commonly in articles talking about this
period. I guess having a 0 point 2018 years in the past is clunkier, and we're
used to marking years with an acronym.

We use a lot more acronyms these days, generally. The better ones can be
guessed from context. I personally don't mind the BC/AD, for iron age and
later. It's actually convenient that year 0 corresponds roughly to the
beginning of Rome's height.

~~~
barking
>YBP is used commonly in articles talking about this period.

OK, I'd never it before (had to google it).

------
psergeant
OMFG BREAD IS PALEO NOW! My life just got better

~~~
foobar1962
This was my thought too -- at least about Paleo diet proponents rejecting
grains.

IMHO these early people were smart enough to work out ways to eat things that
were available to them. They probably had cooking with heat, boiling in water,
grinding with stone, and probably worked out using salted water for
preservation, and kept the spoiled food that had random yeast that tasted good
and used it for culture.

Rice is a soft grain and can be eaten whole. Grains like wheat are HARD and
need grinding to be edible. The hard grains keep well, so there was a big
incentive to work out how to use them. A tribe that got it right probably had
quite an advantage.

The movie "10,000" works on this idea.

~~~
hutzlibu
"Grains like wheat are HARD "

But wheat did not existed back then. And the wild grains I know, are edible
with your teeth ...

~~~
dalbasal
They're edible with your teeth when young/fresh....

The quality of grains that made them staples is that they _could_ be
dried/hardened. That way they keep all winter, can be traded, etc.

For an everyday example, think of beans. We sometimes eat them fresh/soft as
vegetables (green beans or edamame). More often they're dried, stored, traded
on commodity markets and then re-softened to be eaten as soy cheese or chili
con carne.

~~~
hutzlibu
"They're edible with your teeth when young/fresh..."

No, I do mean the ripe ones. I am a bit into survival food and know the
differences - but as I said, only of the grains I tried so far. I could chew
them with no big problems.

With the rest you said, I agree ...

------
ryanmercer
*predate known agricultural settlements.

~~~
contingencies
It seems pretty clear that a rigid binary classification of societies in to
settled/agricultural and nomadic/hunter-gatherer is false.

For example: What constitutes a settlement anyway? Just how long does it need
to be in use before it's a settlement instead of a camp? Does regular seasonal
use constitute permanence? In many hunter gatherer societies agriculture is
documented. What about if shelter is natural (rock shelter), mobile (yurts or
boats) or unnecessary (good weather)?

This is all part of a general ancient history rethink that I think it's fair
to say is going on. We've figured out that ancient history is far more nuanced
than many 20th century Western history scholars gave it credit for, and modern
archaeology and genetics in particular are only now showing us the scale of
our misconceptions.

Example areas of complete rethink: peopling of the Americas, continued
diversity (and interbreeding with) non-homo-sapiens, speed and breadth of
human diffusion, speed and breadth of technology invention and diffusion in
pre-historic peoples.

~~~
ryanmercer
>It seems pretty clear that a rigid binary classification of societies in to
settled/agricultural and nomadic/hunter-gatherer is false.

Here's the problem, there's an established 'story' and if someone tries to go
against that established 'story' about human history, they will find
themselves unemployable. They will not be permitted to be a part of digs, they
will not be able to find grant money, they will not be able to find a
university that will take them in.

If someone finds something that even adds doubt it's immediately labeled a
misinterpretation, a fake, some natural process that resembles human activity
etc.

Add to that if you go back to Toba supervolcano 70,000 years ago you wipe out
most of the human population at the time with some estimates getting you into
a few thousand humans across the entire planet which obviously could have
ended societies that did exist at the time and were not nomadic, if they were
using largely grass and wood for their construction, a supervolcano erupting
could have quickly led to using construction materials for heat source, as a
source of food for any animals that were struggling to find food etc. Even
small settlements spread out might go undiscovered by archaeologists for
centuries.

If you look at Kenya’s Olorgesailie Basin there's potentially evidence of tool
building 320,000 years ago. That right there kinda takes everything and goes
"yeahhhhhhhhhh we're probably wrong"
[https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/archaeology/a194478...](https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/archaeology/a19447825/olorgesailie-
kenya-tools-archaeology/)

Telling me we had tools 320k years ago but we didn't figure out agriculture
until 12-14k years ago? Heh. Ssssssure.

I urge anyone to go read about the history of archaeology, it's only until
extremely recently (the mid 1900's) that it even started to become a proper
science and even then most of the labor was untrained volunteer and many an
important site were discovered by people native to the area before properly
trained people were notified and brought in.

Even recorded history is extremely suspect until very modern times. Some will
argue it didn't become reliable until the 11th-12th century but we still see
instances of stuff unreliable past that. Some firmly believe Joan of Arc is a
fabrication for example, which calls 15th century 'history' into question...
when someone questions her existence with logic they are quickly called a
'revisionist' and considered a nutjob though.

The fact that 'revisionist' and 'historical revisionism' exist as concepts are
troubling because they are often used disparagingly of anyone that questions
the 'official story' where in other disciplines it would be considered healthy
skepticism.

~~~
aldoushuxley001
Have any good reads on this? Sounds like granting agencies and science funding
in general are favouring a specific story about human history, but would like
to read more.

~~~
ryanmercer
Here's a brief little crash course on archaeology
[https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/archae...](https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/archaeology/archaeology.htm)

Here's a decent timeline of archaeology, see how it only goes back to 1780
[https://www.ancient.eu/timeline/Archaeology/](https://www.ancient.eu/timeline/Archaeology/)

There are some common historical inaccuracies in this article, like the fact
we were taught Columbus discovered America as recently as the early 90's in my
case (class of '13) despite them knowing damn well he didn't, Newton and
gravity, how slavery is conveniently never mentioned in the North, etc
[https://www.thisisinsider.com/myths-lies-learned-in-
school-w...](https://www.thisisinsider.com/myths-lies-learned-in-school-wrong-
facts-2017-5)

For Columbus in-particular the Oatmeal did a decent, but over the top, write
up some years back
[http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day](http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day)
I was literally taught in the early 90's that they believed the earth was flat
and that Columbus was brave enough to attempt to sail to India and that
everyone thought he was crazy and would fall off the side of the world. This
was in a public school, 20 something years ago. Yet we know there were
colonies, that were eventually abandoned, and one was found in the 1960's in
Newfoundland.

Hell look to certain countries in the middle-east and there are millions that
flat out think the holocaust never happened, people the world around that
think the moon landings were on a sound stage, people trying to currently
change history with the 'Mandela Effect' (Berenstein or Berenstain Bears?).

The history of paleontology is a good rabbit hole too, start with the wiki
[https://www.wikiwand.com/en/History_of_paleontology](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/History_of_paleontology)

As far as people being blackballed, that's mostly just people coming forward
after they allege it has happened or refusing to be part of something for fear
of it although you can go read a lot about Zahi Hawass
[https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Zahi_Hawass](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Zahi_Hawass)
and see where he was pretty damn nutty about creating his own narrative of
Egyptian history for example

"Hawass has been accused of domineering behaviour, forbidding archaeologists
to announce their own findings, and courting the media for his own gain after
they were denied access to archaeological sites because, according to Hawass,
they were too amateurish."

Zahi also strongly fought against any western archaeologists that wanted to
question the timeline for the great pyramid and the Sphinx, flat out refusing
their entry into the country in some instances and like when they drilled
through the 'hidden door' in the great pyramid after jumping through all kinds
of hoops and finding another door not farther up he flat out refused to let
them drill through it.

I also recall Zahi having hieroglyphics at one site, that there are black and
white photos of, covered in plaster but I can't seem to find what site it was.
I distinctly remember seeing side by side photos, the period black and white
next to a modern photo showing extensive plasterwork having been added,
allegedly to 'protect' the site (bit weird, no other archaeologists seem to do
that at ancient sites).

There are also anomalies like these

[https://www.cnn.com/style/article/ancient-roman-coins-
japan/...](https://www.cnn.com/style/article/ancient-roman-coins-
japan/index.html)

[https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2117117/myst...](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2117117/mystery-
over-tonnes-ancient-coins-found-buried-chinese-village)

[https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Kensington_Runestone](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Kensington_Runestone)

[https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Maine_penny](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Maine_penny)

[https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Beardmore_Relics](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Beardmore_Relics)

Etc. Out of place artifacts are interesting when not blatantly fakes
[https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Out-of-
place_artifact](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Out-of-place_artifact)

~~~
aldoushuxley001
Thanks for the insightful answer and many leads to follow up on.

Just goes to show you what people will do to frame the narrative (& how
valuable that narrative is!).

It's like that ol' 1984 quote "Who controls the past controls the future. Who
controls the present controls the past."

~~~
ryanmercer
>You do realize this was simply bad teaching, right?

It was in the history textbooks.

~~~
macintux
I suspect you are misremembering.

Update: to be clear, absolutely there would have been people who thought
they’d fall off the edge of the earth. There are always uneducated people,
presumably large numbers in the 15th century.

------
flukus
Perhaps the assumption that bread is a product of agriculture is the wrong way
around? If bread was already being consumed then it would make sense to want a
more centralized and reliable source of grain.

------
basicplus2
<“Nobody had found any direct evidence for production of bread, so the fact
that bread predates agriculture is kind of stunning,” says Tobias Richter>

Australian Aboriginies where making bread from native grasses for many
thousands years, finely ground with stones, toxins washed out and cooked on
hot coals and stones

.. not a Seeminly well informed professor

------
piccolbo
One thing that fascinates me about archeology is how they would come up with
new conclusions based on a single observation. Quite the smallest sample size
of any natural science I can think of, only thing I can compare to is the case
study in medicine and psychoanalysis. One case, but very intensely studied.

------
itchyjunk
How accurate can these dating be? Can you really pin down burnt bread to 14.5k
years? Maybe this was ritualistic. I don't know if you can infer that they
regularly ate bread. Maybe some peganistic ritual or burial ritual had bread
involved.

Grain yield pre agriculture is supposed to be really low. So low that there
are hypothesis claiming that it was used to brew beer and eating the grain
directly wouldn't be viable for the tribe. I guess we'll wait and see as more
researchers chimes into this.

~~~
muricula
This is a classic use case for carbon 14 dating, so they probably used that. A
quick glance at Wikipedia says that it’s pretty reliable for organic
substances up to 50k years ago. Dating older rocks will often require lead
uranium dating or other interesting radioactive elements.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating)

------
coldtea
"That predate the prevalent half-assed educated guesses about when agriculture
started, similar to many other assumptions about the ancient and pre-historic
world that we have to revise every few years with new discoveries" would be a
better title...

Edit: Downvotes as if the comment is controversial? Here is some food for
thought:

[https://www.techtimes.com/articles/71133/20150722/discovery-...](https://www.techtimes.com/articles/71133/20150722/discovery-
shows-origins-of-agriculture-twice-as-old-as-previously-thought.htm)

[http://thedailyjournalist.com/scientia/the-origins-of-
chines...](http://thedailyjournalist.com/scientia/the-origins-of-chinese-
agriculture-date-older-than-previously-thought/)

[https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/07/15/485722228/wh...](https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/07/15/485722228/where-
did-agriculture-begin-oh-boy-its-complicated)

[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150722144709.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150722144709.htm)

[https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/08/evidence-that-
humans...](https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/08/evidence-that-humans-had-
farms-30000-years-earlier-than-previously-thought/)

[http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....](http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0131422)

[http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/rice-farming-in-india-
muc...](http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/rice-farming-in-india-much-older-
than-thought-used-as-summer-crop-by-indus-civilisation)

~~~
peterwwillis
They're "half-assed" guesses in the same sense that every scientific
discipline has been proven inaccurate as understanding of it evolved. Give us
a few hundred more years of digging in the sand and we'll have some better
theories.

------
grumpwagon
Send them to this guy, he'll eat them:

[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2I6Et1JkidnnbWgJFiMeHA/fea...](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2I6Et1JkidnnbWgJFiMeHA/featured)

~~~
ryanmercer
Heh, I just spent a month watching all of Steve's videos. He's... he's brave.
In one he has 50-60-year-old open can of jam and he eats some "I hope I don't
get botulism, I don't have insurance". and then takes a few more bites...

------
iambateman
In other words, everybody really does like pizza.

~~~
mirimir
Cheese, you say they had _cheese_! Damn.

~~~
zhte415
Quite probably. Cheese and milk products are nutritionally dense. On Food and
Cooking documents milk producing 'Bos primigenius' (cow) at 6ft tall 8000
years BCE, with sheep and goats also used for milk and cheese production at
that time.

Cheese would have probably been easier than bread!

~~~
mirimir
OK, I'm convinced. They had pizza. Maybe with some wild oregano.

------
abakker
Is bread paleo now?

------
AgentOrange1234
Slightly past the 5 second rule :(

------
bayesian_horse
That's how the earliest bread winners brought home the dough.

------
jlebrech
it was invented by the elon musk of bread, after he sold enough bread he made
a mega factory to produce enough grain for his operation.

------
narrator
Since this doesn't conform to the pre-existing theory of the development of
agriculture I expect it to go _poof_ and disappear in a puff of logic any
minute now.

