
Bountify - Crowdsource small coding tasks - danabramov
https://bountify.co
======
mseebach
Hmm, it seems to me that for any task small enough to be appropriate for this
site, it will be more work to describe the task and verify the result than to
just perform the task.

This leads us to those who don't have the capabilities to do the task: They
will risk asking for the impossible (the syllable counting task[1]) or
accepting the unacceptable (the ZIP-code form solution includes a PHP script
with a gaping security hole).

1: So this task has been requested by 'bevan' who appears to be the founder of
the site, and in a comment dumbed down to only having to work for the given
set of tests - the given solution will be little better than just manually
counting the syllables.

~~~
fragmede
You're right that users will ask the impossible, and accept the unacceptable,
but I think that a good enough feedback mechanism could over-come this, and
sites such as Stackoverflow have implemented feedback mechanisms that could
work.

Eg. by allowing comments on answers, the glaring security hold in the ZIP-code
form answer could be raised, addressed, and fixed.

Allow moderators to say 'this task is too big/the bounty is too small', while
simultaneously limiting the maximum bounty to something small.

IMO, the 'right' solution is for libraries to be more easily broken in to
pieces while simultaneously easier to use together so that just the form part
of the 'big ZIP-code PHP library' could be used in this case, but barring
that, this is a neat attempt at code-by-documentation, given that most of the
problems I saw were easier than homework problems.

~~~
mseebach
> but I think that a good enough feedback mechanism could over-come this, and
> sites such as Stackoverflow have implemented feedback mechanisms that could
> work

But people are on SO out of a desire to help other people, and SO specifically
encourages general problems - so saying "that's not possible" is the right
answer to the syllables problem instead of some messy thrown together code
that doesn't actually work.

By introducing the financial reward system, this goes out the window. I get
nothing out of commenting on bounties, explaining why answers are wrong or
requests impossible because I'm not contributing to a community of being
helpful to future people running into a problem.

> IMO, the 'right' solution is for libraries to be more easily broken in to
> pieces while simultaneously easier to use together

Sounds good, but that's not how software development works. The cognitive
skills required to break down a problem into such pieces is significantly
higher that those required to write code that performs the task.

~~~
fragmede
> I get nothing out of commenting on bounties,

The system could easily pay a pittance for commenting, and then more for
distinguished answer; and hell, a monetary _penalty_ for poor answers/spam.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed like the accepted answer, along
with its code, was freely available, so future people _do_ get the benefit of
your insight.

> The cognitive skills required to break down a problem into such pieces is
> significantly higher

...so why should they waste their valuable time doing both the documentation
_and_ implementation?

~~~
mnicole
I like the idea of being able to nitpick someone's code for credits. I also
like the idea of being able to take [some of] their $ if I can prove their
method is wrong within a certain amount of time of being accepted, or possibly
all of the $ if they really screwed the pooch.

------
delinka
"Programmers compete to provide solutions within 1 week."

Sounds like logo contests: spend _your_ time on work that you might not get
paid for. And given mseebach's[1] "accepting the unacceptable" - people
without the capability to write these small code tasks themselves are not
qualified to evaluate proper solutions.

1 - <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4663884>

~~~
bevan
The lack of a guarantee of payment may dissuade some potential solution
providers. However, I think most users provide solutions for fun. At least one
repeat user can't even accept Paypal payments in his country. BTW, you can
also send your winnings to charity if you wish.

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impostervt
So I just Selected an answer for the bounty I posted: <https://bountify.co/G>

I got two good answers pretty quickly, which made it a bit hard to choose. I
selected the one that used the most standard libs, instead of the first
answer. I sent the first responder a tip as thanks.

Some thoughts now that I've used it: \- Got two good answers quickly - loved
that part. Saved me a lot of time. I'm going to use it again immediately for a
the same thing in PHP (<https://bountify.co/H>).

\- How about the ability to copy/clone a bounty so I don't have to rewrite the
whole thing? Just a thought.

\- I felt as though the price you add to tipping is a bit excessive. It was $1
per increase ( $.99 for a $1 tip, $1.99 for a $5 tip, $2.99 for a $10 tip).

~~~
bevan
I'm glad you got solutions so quickly!

I've also had a hard time selecting a winning solution when several correct
ones are posted. I'd like to avoid duplication of effort by solution providers
when possible, but finding a way to do that is tricky (I plan to at least
implement a 'view count' to give would-be solution providers an idea of how
many others have seen the problem).

Thanks for the feedback regarding the tip fees. I'm considering reducing them,
as I want to encourage tipping as much as possible (especially considering
that tips are often awarded to solutions which may be as good as the winning
solution, and I want to encourage rewarding those efforts so that good
solution providers stay around).

Cheers!

------
bobwaycott
Probably echoing other concerns here, but immediate thoughts:

\- Filter open bounties (or have a sort option and default to open bounties at
the top of the list; not much use in seeing expired bounties)

\- Payment should not occur until an answer is accepted, and you should be
able to do this via Stripe without much additional effort. Not everyone values
or appreciates being forced into a charitable donation when they are
attempting to spend money to solve a problem.

\- The fee structure is quite exorbitant. Charging an extra $22.44 on top of a
$250.00 bounty? The Stripe fee is only $7.55. Same for the $100.00 bounty--
Stripe fee of $3.20, and an upcharge of $11.79. That's ridiculous.

~~~
bevan
Thanks for the feedback.

1) I'll add a filter for open bounties.

2) It would be nice if payment could occur after a solution is accepted, but
in practice that presents some thorny issues. Notably, how would I ensure the
bounty creator pays after they receive a working solution?

3) What would you suggest as a more appropriate fee schedule? Considering
expenses, of course :)

~~~
bobwaycott
1) Awesome. That's the biggest usability improvement right now.

2) Accept all CC info at time of posting a bounty and create a Stripe customer
record. Charge automatically when the user accepts an answer--acceptance is
the delayed "confirm payment" step, so to speak. Create a system whereby the
deadline for bounties applies to both parties--poster must accept an answer
within 7 days, unless there are no answers or something. Figure out how to
handle bad answers, etc. Or make it so they will be charged automatically in 7
days unless no answer is provided, and the bounty will be applied equally to
all the responders or something. Get creative. The forced charity thing really
shouldn't be happening. Give the money to the people who take the time to
answer questions, leaving it up to the poster to ensure they award the full
bounty to the right person. Keep a reputation system on a post:accept ratio or
something so responders can get an idea of whether they're likely to be
awarded a bounty from a given poster or not.

3\. That's a bit tougher one to answer from the outside. I can't figure out
how expenses could be as high as the upcharge. I completely understand wanting
to make money off the service, and think you absolutely should. But, upwards
of 300% is a bit much. The reason this sticks out so much is that people will
accept fees, but when the fees get excessively higher at different steps in a
way that is not an equal percentage across all steps, it becomes obvious that
there is something wrong. I think this is highly likely to be noticed among
the audience using this service. So come up with a flat rate that applies
across the board--say, 10%. Enough to cover Stripe's fee & have a bit extra
left over. You should be making money off building up a vibrant service, not
off gouging your users.

------
wodow
I was thinking about this problem recently, primarily around a service for
outsourcing the optimisation of functions (e.g. inner loops).

For this it would be useful to be able to define unit tests and set execution
time limits.

Done well, this is a kind of part solution to problem 6 "Bring Back Moore's
Law" of Paul Graham's Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas:
<http://paulgraham.com/ambitious.html>

------
killercup
Bootstrap. Please don't make its usage so obvious.

Also, is there a way to see only unsolved bounties? Seems like a main feature
to me for programmers.

~~~
jasonkester
Do you believe that most people know what Bootstrap is? Enough to recognize it
on sight? And that they care enough to not use a site that was built with it?

And of those people, are they the kind of people who would find a site like
this one useful? That is, are you saying that in your opinion, this site will
suffer noticeable financial consequences of having used Bootstrap and not
sufficiently disguised it? And that that lost revenue would offset the costs
of changing the design?

I'm not sure that I can agree with you if that's the point you're trying to
make.

~~~
neotek
The people who use Bountify (ie, programmers) will almost certainly know what
Bootstrap is, and that stereotypical Bootstrap "look" gives the impression of
laziness and a lack of care. Whether that impression is correct or not is
debatable, but the fact remains that form is often just as important as
function when it comes to making a sale.

~~~
indiecore
Really? I don't think it matters. After I learned about bootstrap I started
noticing it everywhere but beyond "oh hey, they're using bootstrap" (and
stealing ideas like crazy when I notice) I don't get _offended_ if someone is
using it.

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tzaman
It seems like we got a competition (by we I mean <http://carmivore.com/>).

We're not this far yet though, so we better hurry! :)

~~~
bevan
Landing page looks great! Let me know if you want to compare notes sometime
over coffee (SF or NY). Looking forward to seeing the product. All the best!

~~~
tzaman
Thank you for the invitation, unfortunately, I'll have to pass for now as I'm
from Slovenia, EU :)

Here's a small sneak-peek for you: <http://cl.ly/image/001Y0W0y050X/o>

~~~
lemieux
That looks awesome! Nice UI!

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impostervt
Seems interesting, and I may have some items to post. Not sure that I like
that if my bounty gets no answers my money goes straight to charity. Would
tend to make me post lower bounties to reduce my risk, which may attract less
attention, which may increase my risk, etc.

PS - The link to the MSF charity is wrong.

~~~
bevan
@impostervt, I'm the creator of Bountify- thanks for pointing out the broken
link, I'll fix it asap.

Yes, I think the money-to-charity policy will dissuade some users from posting
higher bounty amounts at first. My goal is to show that certain kinds of tasks
can consistently get quality solutions on Bountify. So far I've been pleased
with the speed and quality of solutions and the tone that's been set by the
first users.

Feel free to share what types of tasks you'd consider posting. Thanks again
for the feedback!

------
impostervt
Just posted a bounty (<https://bountify.co/G)-> some thoughts:

-Looking up tags is painfully slow. -I agree to the Terms & conditions - missed it the first time through, lost my CC info. Kind of annoying. \- Posting the bounty, from the time I clicked the Post Bounty button until the page refreshed, is also slow. Maybe a spinner at least next to the button so I know it's working?

~~~
bevan
Thanks for posting a bounty!

Sorry about the latency, I'll work on that. I'll also address the Terms and
Conditions issue (by most likely removing it entirely, since there is a
redundant notice on signup). Please let me know if you have any other
suggestions or feedback, I really appreciate it.

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ScottBurson
I'm afraid this probably runs afoul of the escrow laws. Such laws vary
somewhat by state, but they generally cover situations where you act as an
intermediary in a transaction, holding money for one party until the other
party satisfies some condition. The problem with this business model in
general is that it provides a great temptation for embezzlers, as the amount
of money being held at any one time can be quite large (being the sum of
multiple pending transactions).

The easy fix is not to actually charge people when they place a bounty, but
instead get a preauthorization; then you can charge them at the time the
bounty is actually paid. Depending on how PayPal's API works, you might be
able to do this without having the money actually pass through your account.

This would also give you the option of not charging them at all if their
problem wasn't solved, but presumably you don't want to do that since it opens
the system to abuse.

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ing33k
I was curious and actually posted my solution to this <https://bountify.co/J>

I should say that I will not be participating in this in future unless I am
assured that my solution has equal chances of acceptance.

I posted my solution few minutes after the first solution was posted . ( my
approach was completely different on handling the file uploading) later after
some time I was shocked to see that the first answer was edited and was
following the approach I had followed.

I am not saying that code was copied. what I am saying is that it's not good
to allow other participants to see the different solutions . Also I would
suggest that you maintain version of every answer. ( so that you can track the
edits ) ..

~~~
bevan
Hi ing33k, I'm the creator of Bountify. Thanks for trying it out! In response
to your comment, solutions are versioned, and there is now a Timeline feature
for each Bounty, where you can see each edit made to each solution in order of
creation. You can also see diffs for each solution. Let me know if you have
any other suggestions!

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asher_
I love this idea. I'm going to bookmark it and give it a shot when I get stuck
on something that I need done in a hurry.

My thoughts: 1\. The bootstrap theme is fine imo, unlike what others are
saying. I'm assuming this is an MVP to see if you can get traction, and in
this case the functionality is more important than the aesthetics. You'll
obviously want to change this later on though.

2\. Let me filter open bounties, or at least move those to the top of the
list.

3\. Your tag filters don't look like they are working properly. If I click
'javascript' for instance, I only get one record.

4\. Can we set custom time limits? For small coding tasks, I don't want to
wait a week to have them done.

~~~
bevan
Thanks for the great feedback!

2\. That feature is forthcoming 3\. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll fix
that. 4\. It started that way, but then I realized the time limit wouldn't
have much impact on when the bounty actually gets answered, because solution
providers compete to answer as soon as possible. So in the interest of
simplicity I decided to make it a week. I'll consider changing it back. In
practice, most tasks have been solved well before the deadline.

~~~
asher_
My thoughts on the time limits...

I have wanted a service like this a dozen or so times this year, and each time
it has been when I'm stuck on a problem that I need to get sorted ASAP. If I
have time, I'll figure it out myself (that's part of the fun).

I usually want a solution within minutes/hours rather than in a week. I would
happily offer relatively high bounties for solutions if I get them quickly,
but if I have a problem and I have to give people a week to complete it, what
happens when I solve it myself the next day?

This might not be the standard use case, I don't know. But I had an SQL query
I was struggling with a few days ago that would have been fairly easy for an
SQL expert to correct and I would have happily put up a $50-100 bounty for it,
provided It was done in a few hours.

In any case, I love the service, and I will certainly test it out next time I
get stuck on something!

~~~
bevan
Thanks for your thoughts. I see what you mean about the time limit- I imagine
that use case (people needing solutions quickly) will be quite common, so I'll
look for a way to address it. My concern with adding time limits was that a
shorter one might not increase answering speed (but it does seem that it would
in most cases).

------
agscala
Definitely have a minimum price set. $10 would probably be worthwhile, maybe
even $20 as a minimum. I'm not going to waste my time for $1. $10 is pretty
iffy also.

Also like others said, I don't care about seeing expired bounties.

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sturmeh
Is it just me or is a bounty just more likely to deter people from trying to
give a worthwhile response?

I can see it turning to the point where the answers will degrade in quality as
more and more people join the site in an attempt to make money. (Similar to
Yahoo answers.)

Compare to Stack Overflow, where people are answering questions and solving
problems for arbitrary points. (Mainly to help their fellow man.)

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tarraschk
I love this idea. However, it would be helpful to get some RSS/Atom feed to
follow bounties.

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irunbackwards
This is really neat, reminds me of Philip Rosedale's project, Work List, but
with a lower barrier to entry. <https://www.worklist.net/worklist/welcome.php>

------
urlwolf
If you are in Slovenia (EU), how come you can use Stripe? Honest question, I'm
in Germany.

~~~
bevan
I'm the founder and I'm in the US (the founder of Carmivore mentioned they
were from Slovenia).

------
theaeolist
Ideal for school programming assignments?

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jlebrech
wow some people are cheap

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indiecore
I see people are already paying out for their homework[1]

<https://bountify.co/8>

~~~
bevan
Actually, that's me (the founder), seeding the site with some bounties. I
don't want the site to get a bad reputation as a cheating hub, so I'll be
closing questions that are excessively homework-like. <https://bountify.co/8>
and similar bounties were inspired by Project Euler.

------
pibefision
I will not try any new web app which uses default bootstrap themes.

I think that today, it communicates that you don't have too much appreciation
for the final user experience, just want to test a concept.

~~~
arocks
It is probably because of one of the following reasons:

\- The team is primarily technical with no design experience

\- Followers of "Release Early and Iterate"

\- Minimalism in design to focus on content

It is unfair to judge a book by its cover. Twitter bootstrap is godsend for
many to create a website or webapp.

