
US Lawmakers Urge Canada to Snub China's Huawei in Telecoms - nopacience
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-huawei-tech-canada/u-s-lawmakers-urge-canada-to-snub-chinas-huawei-in-telecoms-idUSKCN1MM2FO
======
mrschwabe
Notice Telus is issuing Huawei routers to new households here in Canada.
Telus, Bell, Rogers - the 3 monopolies here on internet - means you could have
about a third or more of the country transitioning to Chinese hardware; that
is a lot.

As a Canadian citizen, I urge Canada to snub Huawei too. Doing business with
businesses based in China for any reason should be met with extreme criticism
simply based on the human rights atrocities that are happening there all the
time; not to mention Chinese government's dismantling of free speech in Hong
Kong [0] and its continued aggression towards the independent and separate
country of Taiwan [1].

China's businesses should fix China's government before they expect to be
rewarded with lucrative international deals to the scale that Telus (and
Apple, et all) is awarding them.

[https://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/10/14/beijing-taking-hong-
ko...](https://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/10/14/beijing-taking-hong-kong-
back-100-years-says-baggio-leung-new-convener-pro-independence-group-hknf/)

[https://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/10/11/exclusive-beijing-
tell...](https://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/10/11/exclusive-beijing-tells-
foreign-consulates-hong-kong-refrain-attending-taiwan-national-day-events/)

~~~
prolikewh0a
Based on all of that, you shouldn't be doing business with the USA either.

~~~
azinman2
US isn’t doing anything like what China is doing with the Uyghurs.

~~~
Leary
The US just bomb Muslims with drones instead, much more humane.

~~~
stickfigure
Scale is a significant differentiating factor.

~~~
chongli
Not to mention intent. The US is ostensibly targeting those drones to attack
individuals that their intelligence apparatus has identified as hostile. We
can talk about the ethical and methodological problems with this approach,
that's fine.

But China's operation appears to have the goal of wiping out Uygher culture
and forcibly stripping them of their religious practices. This is all-out
assault on the autonomy and dignity of an entire ethnic group. The scariest
thing to me is that it might actually work[1].

[1] [https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/zhukov/wp-
content/uploads/sites/...](https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/zhukov/wp-
content/uploads/sites/140/2017/10/udu_v1.pdf)

------
g8oz
Apart from U.S pressure, another point to consider is that Huawei is widely
believed to have conducted large scale theft of Nortel IP in the 2000s. It's
crazy that Canada would think of rewarding such conduct with important telecom
contracts.

edit: [https://business.financialpost.com/technology/nortel-
hacked-...](https://business.financialpost.com/technology/nortel-hacked-to-
pieces)

~~~
Leary
Only one person has made that accusation: Brian Shields, and he does so
without any evidence.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Only one person has made that accusation: Brian Shields, and he does so
> without any evidence_

There was a lot of evidence of the hacking [1][2]. What was unsubstantiated
was Brian Shields' belief that "the extensive cyberattacks on Nortel
contributed to its downfall" [3].

[1]
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203363504577187...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203363504577187502201577054?_nocache=1329206812142&user=welcome&mg=id-
wsj)

[2]
[https://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2400242,00.asp](https://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2400242,00.asp)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nortel#Hackers_had_free_access...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nortel#Hackers_had_free_access_for_years_without_being_detected)

------
captainmuon
Stupid question, but aren't essentially _all_ routers made in China? Maybe not
neccessarily by natively Chinese companies, but for sure in Chinese factories
owned 51% by Chinese citizens? Or are there recommendable domestic options?
What's the difference security-wise between a Huawei device and, say, a
Motorola device made in China?

I've used a Huawei LTE router from a German telco before and thought it was a
pretty solid product, but given the recent headlines I find it hard to judge
what's a legitimite concern and what's just "red scare".

~~~
tracker1
It's hard to tell... China's government has definitely been involved in cyber-
attacks to further business interests throughout the world. They've developed
better soft skills and fostered a lot of relationships to that end. Some of
these actions are entirely natural, others completely unscrupulous. It really
depends and it's hard to be objective.

In the end, I think it's been very ill advised for the U.S. Govt to allow so
much of its' essential communications and other technical infrastructure to be
delivered by foreign entities given domestic capability. I think we're only
now starting to realize how much risk has been levied and how dangerous this
has really been. Not just to domestic businesses, but to our own security.

The advice to Canada isn't necessarily bad, however I'm not sure that I would
trust U.S. entities any further given the amount of cyber-warfare coming from
all sides, and spying all around. Larger countries should definitely work to
at least form their own assembly plants for most goods if they're able to
support that. It can at least minimize a lot of the risks.

------
jorblumesea
Given the cozy relationship between the Chinese government and Chinese
telecoms, it's probably best to avoid any Chinese made electronics for
infrastructure, if possible. Chinese military agents are even implicated in
attacks on Western companies to help their own corporations.

The scale at which companies work with the government and how the government
funds companies makes it very hard to trust any Chinese company.

~~~
endorphone
Fair points, but you can search/replace Chinese with American and the
statements are arguably as true. From cozy relationships to telecoms, to
compromising electronics for their own ends, to engaging in industrial
espionage for US organizations (including against companies of allies -- the
CIA and NSA are both engaged in economic espionage, and share useful
information with corporate partners).

It is a bit strange seeing the US yelling the warnings about China when really
they just gained a peer doing the same things.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _you can search /replace Chinese with American and the statements are
> arguably as true_

Not really. American companies can and do defy the American executive branch.
Rule of law and an independent judiciary are things in America. They are not
in China.

~~~
endorphone
_Rule of law and an independent judiciary are things in America_

A rule of law that is profoundly flexible to achieve whatever the US
government wants to do. From secret courts and directives that you can't talk
about, to the wholesale capture of telco traffic (with telco complicity, of
course). And that rule of law allows the massive US intelligence establishment
to do virtually anything internationally (which is the context that we're
talking about), from sabotaging systems, performing economic espionage and
stealing trade secrets, to murder.

Virtually the same trappings and illusions of controls exist in China as well.

Both countries do the same thing, and to an international country are
interchangeable. The overall context to these discussions, however, is that
the US is somehow good and China is somehow bad, so it's different.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Virtually the same trappings and illusions of controls exist in China as
> well_

Secret courts are a shame. Secret directives, on the other hand, can be
compatible with the rule of law and an independent judiciary, provided they're
lawfully authorized and can be challenged in a court.

At the end of the day, a private citizen (or foreign government) can challenge
the U.S. government on equal grounds in a fair court. That is not the case in
China.

~~~
jtregunna
> Secret courts are a shame. Secret directives, on the other hand, can be
> compatible with the rule of law and an independent judiciary, provided
> they're lawfully authorized and can be challenged in a court.

I presume you also forgot to add this before challenged in a court...

> ..., whistleblowers are protected, and can be ...

You see, because that's the thing with secret directives, they're redacted
from the public eye. The only way we get visibility into them isn't with FOIA
requests, it's with whistleblowers who feel the government is doing things
wrong, and if they're not protected, they rarely come forward.

------
uiri
Based on Huawei's existing presence in Ottawa a couple years ago, I'd say that
this ship has already sailed. Canada isn't going to kick out any of the
companies that scooped up bits of what used to be Nortel.

~~~
otoburb
Note that this isn't about kicking Huawei out of the existing network
deployments (2G where it still exists, 3G & 4G/LTE). This is about not letting
Huawei compete for 5G network infrastructure bids.

I understand the national security concerns, but it should be noted that real
incremental costs will be incurred if Canada agrees, especially for Canadian
carriers who already have Huawei RAN[1], Packet Core[2] or GiLAN[3] (or worse,
an entirely E2E bundled deal) infrastructure in place servicing their current
needs.

Huawei almost always has the lowest RFP bid prices, and through a combination
of factors generally ends up on most RFx vendor short-lists. Their success is
undeniable, and scares many.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_access_network](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_access_network)

[2] [http://www.3gpp.org/technologies/keywords-
acronyms/100-the-e...](http://www.3gpp.org/technologies/keywords-
acronyms/100-the-evolved-packet-core)

[3] [https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-
us/reference_arch...](https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-
us/reference_architectures/2017/html/deploying_mobile_networks_using_network_functions_virtualization/background#gilan)

------
sbradford26
>"grave concerns”

I just want to know what these grave concerns are. If they are such a big deal
then the details should be released to the public.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _the details should be released to the public_

Details _have_ been released. The Wikipedia page provides a good compendium of
Huawei's intellectual property rights abuses, espionage and security concerns,
workforce treatment issues and sanctions violations [1].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huawei#Controversies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huawei#Controversies)

------
sandworm101
Given all the animosity between the countries at the moment (Made in America,
NAFTA 2, Bombardier, boarder delays, the Saudi fiasco, pending legalization of
pot) now is not the best time for the US to urge Canada to impose any new
restrictions. Canada laughed the last time the US described it as a national
security threat (aluminum/steel tariffs) it will laugh at this one too.

Canada needs improved cellular services and it needs them now. Canada's cell
networks are much more regulated than those of the US. They cover vastly
larger areas and are much more expensive to access. The insertion of national
security politics will only slow progress.

~~~
otoburb
>> _Canada needs improved cellular services and it needs them now._

In what way does Canada require improved cellular service? I'm nodding my head
to the other points you've made but this one puzzles me. If you're talking
about pricing, then I would agree there given more numerous and more
transparent wireless competition in other countries.

Canada's mobile networks are generally comparable to advanced (but not cutting
edge) cellular networks around the world.

~~~
sandworm101
Yes, in Toronto and Vancouver. But drop a random pin on a map of Canada and it
is a different story. There are towns only 50km from downtown Vancouver that
lack any reliable cell coverage. I've been involved in a few SAR events, at
major tourist spots beside highways, where the lack of cell coverage was a
huge issue.

Canada's distances also mean that there remain a great many communities
without wired internet services. Satellite is very expensive, and increasingly
difficult at higher latitudes. Cellular-based broadband is the only realistic
option.

[http://www.comparecellular.com/images/assets/coverage-
maps/b...](http://www.comparecellular.com/images/assets/coverage-maps/bell-
coverage-map-english.png)

Setting aside the north, take a look at how much of BC lacks any real cell
coverage.

~~~
otoburb
There's huge demand for cellular-based broadband. I wasn't aware that TELUS'
wireless coverage in the Interior was so bad, and slightly surprised that
there isn't more negative news coverage when TELUS and Bell tout "national
coverage". I'm sure the CRTC's roaming caps[1] will change some of the
profitability scenarios per set of cell-sites.

I will note that Saskatchewan (through SaskTel) seems to cover the province
quite well even outside of Regina and Saskatoon.

Re. cellular-based broadband - while there is huge demand in rural regions,
the pricing is challenging. Basically, cellular-based "broadband" usually
operates at a loss, but at least it's a loss that more carriers are willing to
shoulder, in (small) part due to the CRTC's renewed call for action to review
"universal broadband service"[2] in 2019.

[1]
[https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2018/2018-99.pdf](https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2018/2018-99.pdf)

[2]
[https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/internet/internet.htm](https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/internet/internet.htm)

------
majia
All the security concern about Huawei may actually make its devices more
secure in the long run. The heightened scrutiny by various players not only
deter Chinese government from conducting blatant hacks, but also expose many
conventional vulnerabilities that pose a greater threat for most businesses.
For example, UK intelligence agency has a joint testing center with Huawei to
vet its source code and hardware design. It's really hard to find this kind of
capable and independent party to perform such comprehensive security audit.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _All the security concern about Huawei may actually make its devices more
> secure in the long run_

This makes no sense. Nobody argues for purchasing a product based on a
manufacturer's history of security failings.

~~~
majia
I didn’t say this is a reason to buy Huawei. I’m suggesting a side effect of
security concern is improved security. To make secure software/hardware, it is
really valuable to have people of different backgrounds to take a look. This
is what many other venders do not have.

------
jason46
Is there any reason info showing this company to be any more evil than any
other China based cell company? Just curious why they seem to be targeted more
than others.

------
supergirl
I would not trust a single word coming out of these politicians. they are
basically spreading fud.

------
supergirl
we should buy NSA made routers instead.

------
CleaningWithMud
It really isn't a good time for the US to "urge" Canada to do anything. There
is no surplus of good will between the countries after Trump's bullying and
insults. Canada can make its own decisions.

~~~
mcguire
This is the same Canada they're trying to start a trade wea war wor with,
right?

------
jtregunna
> As a Canadian citizen, I urge Canada to snub Huawei too.

I'm not a fan of Huawei, but I am a fan of retaining our sovereignty. If the
US wants the privilege of suggesting how we should run our country, then
perhaps they should work on their end to repair the bilateral relationship.
Currently, my vote is to tell them "Mind your own damned business."

~~~
solotronics
who's goals are more aligned with yours? neighbors to the south who you share
a lot in common with or a totalitarian government on the other side of the
planet.

~~~
diego_moita
Nations don't have friends, they only have interests.

Being overly dependent on "America First, Always" technology doesn't serve the
Canadian interests.

~~~
derefr
You realize that there exist major infrastructure-hardware players outside of
the US _or_ China, right? Ericsson (of Sweden), for example.

------
balabaster
Urge what now?

Do you know who makes the rules over what I can and can't buy?

Yes, that's right. Me.

U.S. Lawmakers don't get a say, sorry. I'll buy what I want, thanks.

The arrogance is _astounding_.

------
diego_moita
China is creepy and Huawei is not reliable.

But, for Canada, being overly dependent on the US is much worse. I don't want
this country to become a Northern Puerto Rico.

~~~
dang
> China is creepy

Nationalistic slights will get you banned here. Please don't do this again.

Edit: looks like we had to warn you about this once before.

------
coding123
What's this latest trend about evil huawai lately? If there is something to
report then they should report it.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _If there is something to report then they should report it._

There has been a lot of reporting on Huawei's sketchiness. The Wikipedia page
[1] is a good starting point.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huawei#Controversies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huawei#Controversies)

