
Beartooth - nickevans
http://beartooth.com
======
jdietrich
As with any smartphone product being marketed for use in wilderness
environments, a note of caution is necessary.

Rescue services have seen an increasing number of life-threatening situations
caused by the unwise use of smartphones. Phones aren't sufficiently rugged and
often lack user-replaceable batteries, so cannot be relied upon as a
navigation tool or as a means of emergency communication.

If you're considering buying a product like this, think again. An FRS radio
and a Garmin Etrex cost about the same, but are vastly better suited to the
task. They are drop resistant, waterproof and will run on ordinary AA
batteries.

If you are in a remote area, always carry a magnetic compass and paper map and
ensure that you have the skills required to use them. Consider carrying
distress flares, a signal mirror or a SPOT beacon.

[https://www.thebmc.co.uk/smartphone-apps-handle-with-
care](https://www.thebmc.co.uk/smartphone-apps-handle-with-care)

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-
islands-3380...](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-
islands-33801741)

~~~
andrewljohnson
I agree it's foolish to do a dangerous trip with just one navigation method.
But that doesn't mean your phone isn't a good tool, or that we'd have less
emergencies if they didn't exist.

I develop an app called Gaia GPS, which a vast array of backpackers, wildland
firefighters, and SAR use as a tool to navigate in the woods. They use battery
packs and rugged/insulating cases with their iPhone and Android devices to
make them durable and long-lasting.

Even if you are a master orienteer who knows how to use a compass and a map
with great skill, there are situations where you will be safer to have a GPS
along too (either a smartphone or standalone unit). Situations like I have
been in, where there is so much snow coming down, that you can't see the trail
you're following or cutting, much less peaks or other landmarks.

In some situations, map skills and reckoning may get you home, but seeing
yourself clearly marked on a map will make you safer too. People shouldn't
fear GPS devices or phones as tools for survival and navigation.

p.s. This comment is FUD and based on anecdotes from two articles about
Scotland.

~~~
macintux
I heart Gaia GPS, thanks. I find the interface a bit confusing, but that's a
tough problem to solve given a large feature set and a small touch-only UI.

~~~
andrewljohnson
Thanks, that's a fair criticism and a kind allowance.

I think you'll see the UI improved greatly this year... as of last Monday, we
have 7 full-timers working on Gaia GPS, and we're looking for a designer to
help with the UX right now. Things really blossomed in 2015, and 2016 will see
more engineering work on Gaia GPS than _any other year_.

~~~
macintux
I think my main problem is that I've never used GPS hardware or software, so I
have a distinct lack of familiarity with the standard concepts, making the
learning curve that much steeper.

Fortunately, I really don't need much. Primarily recording (off)road trips in
the Jeep, and downloading maps in advance of excursions where I suspect
cellular data will be flaky.

Anyway, thanks again, and good luck!

------
linksbro
It transmits via some sub-1ghz free spectrum bands, which travel a good
distance and have decent structure penetration.
[https://beartooth.zendesk.com/hc/en-
us/articles/216797018-Wh...](https://beartooth.zendesk.com/hc/en-
us/articles/216797018-What-frequencies-does-Beartooth-cover-)

This is why unlicensed spectrum bands are great; they allow for stuff like
this to be built without a billion dollar spectrum price tag.

~~~
csomar
I don't think 2 miles is a good travel distance. (or maybe it is from a
technical perspective but not from a practical one).

That would assume lots of users which I feel can be problematic with a $399
price range and big form factor.

~~~
freehunter
I've been trying to solve an issue similar to what Beartooth is doing, and 2
miles is amazing range. Bear in mind, these aren't huge towers hundreds of
feet above the ground with 50kWh power sources and million dollar price tags,
they're battery-powered, handheld, and consumer-priced. And cell towers with
all the advantages listed only travel less than 20 miles. 2 miles with those
limitations is a great distance.

I think maybe you're looking at the wrong use case. This doesn't replace GSM,
it replaces walkie-talkies (or rather updates it for the text-based world).
The use case is you and your friends are at an event downtown and cell service
goes out (like it does when the sites are oversubscribed). You're camping and
there's no service that far in the woods. You're in a disaster and trying to
find your loved ones. It's short range communications, not long-distance
calling.

Ham radio would go farther, but sending encrypted communications over ham
radio is illegal, so that's right out. This is the next best thing.

~~~
sbierwagen

      2 miles is amazing range. Bear in mind, these aren't 
      huge towers hundreds of feet above the ground with 
      50kWh power sources and million dollar price tags, 
      they're battery-powered, handheld, and consumer-priced
    

This guy did 7,600Km at 10mW on the 30m band, using a raspberry pi and a
couple passives: [https://gerolfziegenhain.wordpress.com/2013/04/13/raspi-
as-w...](https://gerolfziegenhain.wordpress.com/2013/04/13/raspi-as-wspr-
transmitter/)

Of course, the antenna was 44 feet long, and he was transmitting at 1.46 baud,
using WSPR:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WSPR_%28amateur_radio_software...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WSPR_%28amateur_radio_software%29)

As Shannon proved in the 40s, you can get great range if you can sacrifice
bandwidth: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noisy-
channel_coding_theorem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noisy-
channel_coding_theorem)

~~~
makomk
It's true that you don't need much power if both parties have ham radio
licences, 44 foot wide antennas hoisted 30 foot into the air, and are willing
to transmit unencrypted and very slowly. License-free handheld consumer gear
is basically limited to UHF, which is pretty much line-of-sight.

------
rdl
Is this basically the same as goTenna?
[http://www.gotenna.com/](http://www.gotenna.com/)

~~~
leejoramo
Yes, a comparison between goTenna and BearTooth would be good.

~~~
cullenking
I've got a 4 pack of gotenna's, and the hardware seems good, but the android
app is pretty bad. Pretty sure a solid Android dev could bang out an app with
better functionality in a good solid weekend of hacking (assuming they were
using an SDK that abstracted all the BTLE comms).

Android app is missing some great features like automatic group location
updates. Right now you have to get location updates manually broadcast to you
by each person in the group. Lots of crashes too.

I applied for an SDK but haven't heard anything back in three months. Feels
like the project is dead, as there have been no android app updates in that
time either.

~~~
GoNoah
Hi, the SDK is not dead at all, it's going to come out in 1-2 months, we just
have been focusing on encryption which should be coming this week. By the way,
the lack of automated group updates is by design, there is very limited
bandwidth made available by the FCC and if we allowed everyone to transmit
their locations non-stop it would ruin it for everyone. We do have some
features coming soon that will help get locations in a smoother fashion.
Please standby to see those functions soon.

~~~
cullenking
Glad to hear of it, sorry to come across as harsh. I was (and still am)
surprised to not see any updates in the app since I got my devices delivered
3.5 months ago. Strongly recommend you guys kick out the occasional bugfix
release without piling up fixes for a big release, helps make the project feel
like it has a little momentum.

Your hardware seems to be top notch!

Ahh, good explanation of the group updates functionality. Is this a problem
for a small group of 4, every 15 minutes? Seems like not too much bandwidth if
you aren't talking about an update ever minute.

------
roymurdock
Just don't see a value prop to make this feasible. I go to festivals, skiing,
camping with friends 2-3 times a year.

At a festival, cell service is fine. Camelback with gatorade/water mix is the
crucial piece of equipment. Just keep an eye on it, as random people will try
to drink from your straw.

For casual skiing we set times/places to meet up in case we get separated.
Again, cell phones work fine on most mountains. Don't want to throw this
bulky, expensive (not water/shock proof?) thing in a plastic bag in my pocket.
If I'm going back country, go with a buddy. Keep an avalanche kit (shovel,
beacon, air tube) in the backpack and bring a $30 pair of 6 mile, 2-way,
replaceable battery, shock/waterproof radios.

Camping, the point is to get away from constant communication and leave the
phone off, in the car. Again, bring the actual radios if you're going in deep.

Smartphones are great for day-to-day life and work, but I feel like half the
point of the vacation is being able to untether.

~~~
ldayley
I don't think it is designed with this use case in mind, despite the marketing
that mentions crowded festivals.

I see a "Born in Bozeman" badges on the site, so I'm assuming this was born
out of necessity for backcountry trekking in wild Montana and not hiking Mt.
Tamalpais. I'm not far from Bozeman and I don't have to travel far from home
before I lose network coverage from both Verizon and T-Mobile. Sure, I relish
the loss of service in a way as a means of escape, but it has higher risks and
causes a number of challenges that I think this seeks to overcome.

I'm intrigued.

~~~
aj_g
Yep. I'm from Bozeman, and can think of more than a few friends who could find
this useful doing field research out here. And to anyone who is wondering, the
name is in reference to the Absaroka-Beartooth wilderness, an absolutely
gorgeous expanse of land near Bozeman

[http://www.outsidebozeman.com/places/wilderness-
areas/absaro...](http://www.outsidebozeman.com/places/wilderness-
areas/absaroka-beartooth-wilderness-area/absaroka-beartooth-wilderness)

~~~
prawn
Also maybe the Beartooth Highway which is a stunning road South-East of
Bozeman. Up there with Byway 12 in Utah as one of the most picturesque drives
I've done.

------
agentgt
Is there a bluetooth device for making your phone a walkie talkie for CB radio
or marine VHF radio?

I have wanted that for some time as I think having radio tm for survival over
some propriety thing beneficial for emergencies.

An example would be something like this
[https://www.cobra.com/products/professional/29-ltd-
bt](https://www.cobra.com/products/professional/29-ltd-bt)

But I want a smaller form factor to throw in a hiking pack and VHF support as
well.

~~~
dotBen
Really, you should just buy a CB/VHF radio. As someone commented above,
iPhones are not rugged enough for the kinds of use you might need such a radio
in. And batteries can be changed/etc. They really are not expensive.

~~~
agentgt
Yes but the idea/hope would be to minimize form factor as well as having the
microphone and speaker being cordless. And for emergencies (unlike others I'm
not looking to be social but to have another channel of emergency
communication).

That being said I do own a marine vhf radio.

------
zmanian
I've got a Gotenna and it's basically works as advertized and I'm pretty happy
with it.

[http://www.gotenna.com/](http://www.gotenna.com/)

------
tekklloneer
The problem with any mesh network is adoption, and unless this uses some sort
of high range communications, I don't see how it'd work well on the given
example of "ski slope".

I wish they had more specs, less videos.

edit: ah, never mind (thanks linksbro)

~~~
whorleater
This product is more of a walkie talkie implementation on your phone than a
widespread mesh network.

------
ianburrell
goTenna, gotenna.com, is an existing device that does the same thing.
Interesting that both goTenna and Beartooth are only sold as pairs.

~~~
sgarman
I don't think it's interesting. The product would have no use if there was not
another person to chat with. Until there is mass adoption the only way to sell
is in pairs.

------
csomar
I can see a chicken-egg problem here. Without enough users (probably
millions), this device is useless. If the device is useless now, it makes no
sense to purchase it. The pricing doesn't help either: $249! (and $399 after
pre-sale).

Assuming 10 million a good number to kickstart this thing and make it useful
in many locations, they'll need to make a few _billion_ dollars sales in the
next couple years.

~~~
baldfat
If it replaces walkie talkies in rural areas you only need your friends to
have them. I know in the Adirondack Mountains in NY has very spotty signal and
would be great with a few friends. Currently we use walkie talkies that have a
23 mile range. They cost as a pair $43 on Amazon
([http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001UE6MIO/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_d...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001UE6MIO/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687682&pf_rd_s=lpo-
top-
stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00592CUBG&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=11G661RXPBVYPBXZVBZW))
and they are single purpose and really don't need to worry about battery life.

~~~
adekok
Hmm... $43 for a 23 mile range, or $249 for a 2 mile range.

Sometimes improved technology isn't the right solution.

~~~
nmcfarl
I don’t know about the 2 mi range - but the 23 mi range is in best possible
conditions, line of sight from mountain top to valley. Those same walkie
talkies advertise a 1 mi range in a "Neighborhood"

~~~
baldfat
They are much farther then line of sight. I certainly get two miles in heavy
forests and other side of hill. These work great for groups hiking and
climbing.

[http://www.buytwowayradios.com/blog/2006/07/the_truth_about_...](http://www.buytwowayradios.com/blog/2006/07/the_truth_about_range.aspx)

~~~
lepht
From your link:

> The range that a two-way radio advertises is the range that the radio should
> get in "ideal" conditions. Ideal conditions are line of sight, such as from
> a mountaintop to a valley below -- no interference at all.

> So what type of range can you expect from your radio? Usually half a mile up
> to two miles

~~~
baldfat
As I said I get about 2 miles

------
nxzero
Fact is that most people going into the wildness are dependent on the park to
make sure they won't get lost. Learning how to not get lost and how to figure
out where you are takes effort, time, and experience; I've seen people with
the right tools and knowledge panic and disregard all logic when they realize
they're lost. Smart phones, setup correctly on the other hand take zero time
to learn to use, and are very very good at showing people where they are
regardless of panic. I personally wish more people knew how to use a smart
phone in the wild, more so than anything else; in part, because knowing this
and using the phone in a blind drop test would help them value spending the
time to learn more ways of staying found.

------
mathgeek
On first load, all I see is the blatant "look at this person's butt in tight
jeans while they insert a phone into their pocket" video clip. Drove me right
off. Do we really need that sort of thing to promote a wireless device in this
day and age?

~~~
elbigbad
I didn't get the "sex sells" angle from that. I'm a male and that's where I
keep my phone while walking around. It tied the Beartooth in my mind more to
the feelings of "this is a portable cell-phone related device" than to the
"sex sells" angle.

------
kcbanner
Why do companies insist on disabling the youtube controls when embedding. I
want to turn the volume down but I have to copy the URL and watch on youtube
instead.

------
ProAm
That website is hard to look at, it couldnt be more busy.

------
kin
Would love to see this in action as it solves my music festival communication
woes. The price tag is a little steep though for adoption.

~~~
baldfat
Try buying a bunch of two ways on amazon. You can get 6 of them for $150 and
they work for 10 hours on 2 AA batteries and have a 23 mile range.

~~~
chrissnell
If you're talking about 2-meter radios, you're going to need a ham radio
license to use them in the US. It's not hard, but it is necessary. Also, FCC
regulations do not permit "broadcasting" on these bands. That is, you can't
play music over them. Having a music festival playing in the background is
flirting with that rule. You're better off just using FRS radios.

~~~
seanp2k2
The "23 mile range" business is very optimistic. You'll probably never see
over 5 miles of range unless it's line-of-sight between two mountains.
However, they'd be great at most festivals or e.g. Burning Man. Look for
something FRS or GMRS. There are also 2-meter (~144mhz) radios which parent is
talking about like e.g. a Baaofeng UV-5R which are inexpensive software-
defined radios that can operate on licensed and unlicensed bands. If you get
something like that, you should be aware of the power restrictions of FRS and
GMRS and the licensing requirements for GMRS.

TL;DR unless you intend to get pretty into it and just want something for
festivals and something to give to non-radio-geek friends to use, just get a
FRS or GMRS radio. Motorola and Uniden both make quality sets that will work
up to a few miles away at festivals.

~~~
tjohns
FYI: There aren't any unlicensed bands you can legally use a Baofeng UV-5R on.
They're only approved for use on the business or amateur bands.

Unfortunately all the unlicensed bands require band-specific hardware
certification, which the Baofeng's don't qualify for, for various reasons.

Also, the Baofeng's aren't software-defined radios. Those cost much more
money. :) It's just a standard programmable VHF/UHF radio, that happens to be
very cheap.

------
froo
In the "Ultralight" backpacking community, I don't see something like this
taking off.

I remember watching a video the other day of a guy talking about his gear for
the AT and he went so far as to cut his toothbrush down and even talked about
drilling holes in the remaining handle to further cut down on weight.

------
ntrepid8
I've had trouble with phone at low temperatures before, even when carried
inside my parka, and inside a lifeproof case. Modern smartphones are not made
to withstand life threatening temperatures for any length of time.

That said, something like this would be better than nothing.

------
kelvin0
So, they've basically put out a modern digital walkie talkie, that uses your
smartphone?

------
Gustomaximus
The answers I looked for;

On average you can expect a range of 2 miles

We have designed Beartooth to last for a whole 4-day camping trip, music
festival, or skiing weekend with our typical messaging usage (3000 mAh
battery)

Each user must have their own Beartooth device connected to their phone.

------
osiris679
Does this use a mesh network?

~~~
nullsmack
It's not mesh. It's just a typical data radio. If the person you want to
communicate with isn't in range then you can't bounce the signal through other
people.

~~~
ianburrell
It sounds like the MURS (150 MHz) band that goTenna and Beartooth use doesn't
allow store and forward, or a connection to the Internet.

Which is unfortunate since one use case would be having a relay in car at
trailhead to pass messages from internet.

------
zubeen
Similar to : www.gotenna.com

------
rajangdavis
I hope this isn't too off topic, but is there anything similar but for
networked devices? For example, something for IOT devices to talk to each
other minus the internet.

~~~
IshKebab
There's LoRaWAN. It's becoming very popular for city-wide IoT networks, and
there's an mBed compatible board so it is easy to use.

[http://www.multitech.com/brands/multiconnect-
mdot](http://www.multitech.com/brands/multiconnect-mdot)

[http://thethingsnetwork.org/](http://thethingsnetwork.org/)

------
the_watcher
This requires a critical mass of Beartooth users, right? If I'm hiking or
camping, how far can I be from the nearest user?

------
746F7475
Does the device constantly broadcast something so you can see when people are
in range? Can this be turned off? What if I don't want to announce everyone
where I am? (yeah, it probably doesn't send GPS constantly, but constant radio
signals are pretty easy to triangulate). I would just want to broadcast a
message and then all devices within range should pick it up and see if they
can decrypt it (i.e. was it meant for them)

~~~
746F7475
Instead of just downvoting how about you post a reason why? Was I off topic?
Did I point out a design flaw?

------
Sir_Cmpwn
I would love to see this sort of tech succeed simply because it'll help
proliferate mesh networks.

~~~
URSpider94
It's probably not a mesh network. It's most likely point to point.

------
diegorbaquero
The website started consuming my CPU and RAM so badly. Goodbye

~~~
JakeDOD
Chrome task manager shows spikes of up to 99% CPU usage, and idles at 15%...

At first glance, it looks like animation drawing functions are being triggered
every frame regardless of whether or not anything needs to be animated.

------
fred_is_fred
I had this when I was a kid and it cost about $20. It's called a walkie
talkie. The only people you can talk to with this is other users.

------
throwaway21816
Or you could buy a $20 baofeng and just yell "WHERE YOU AT?" via FRS

~~~
LeoPanthera
Using a Baofeng radio on the FRS band is illegal. Transmission on the FRS band
is limited to 500 milliwatts using FCC-approved devices only. Baofeng radios
are not approved and can transmit at up to 5 watts.

However, if you get an Amateur Radio license, you can transmit in the 2 meter
and 70cm bands at full power, legally, using your Baofeng radio.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-meter_band](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-meter_band)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/70-centimeter_band](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/70-centimeter_band)

[http://www.arrl.org/getting-licensed](http://www.arrl.org/getting-licensed)

~~~
v1k1n
Yes, it's illegal. So is going 5 mph over the speed limit.

~~~
LeoPanthera
It's illegal for a good reason. You may prevent emergency communication with
others using licensed equipment. Incorrect use of the radio can also cause
interference outside of the FRS band entirely. (Particularly with the
Baofengs, which have poor/no output filtering and often cause "splatter" tens
of kilohertz off the frequency you think you are transmitting on.)

------
sharpercoder
The websute us outright lying. It claims that it would connect to nearby
beartooth users when you do not have a signal. As I do not see the beartooth
device using cables, it must use a signal anyways.

