
MIT discovers batteries with indefinite lifetimes using solid-state-electrolytes - xasos
http://www.koreatimesus.com/samsung-mit-find-way-to-make-batteries-with-indefinite-lifetime/
======
ChuckMcM
I have "battery breakthrough fatigue" so announcing a lab result isn't really
going to get me excited. A licensing deal and a factory being built, much more
exciting.

Interesting challenge of the terms indefinite and infinite. I read it as
batteries that may die may not after every action (which would actually be
indeterminate batteries :-)) rather than an infinite number of cycles.

~~~
imglorp
What seems to be the trouble getting some of these to market? There seems to
plenty of demand.

Is this a "Who Killed the Electric Car" conspiracy thing? A VC thing? Or a
vaporware/chemistry-is-hard thing?

~~~
ProblemFactory
I guess that most of these are a science journalism thing:
[http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd051809s.gif](http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd051809s.gif)

For example, there was news recently about a breakthrough discovery of a -70C
superconductor. The media spun it as if loss-free electricity transport and
maglev trains are just around the corner. But in reality, this material
(Hydrogen Sulfide) required 2 _million_ atmospheres of pressure for
superconducting at this temperature.

No conspiracy or lack of funding is behind the lack of practical applications,
in this case it is just utterly unfeasible outside of a laboratory. But even
if the material will never make it to the market, it's still a _scientific_
breakthrough that will give scientists new understanding of how the processes
work, and perhaps lead to other discoveries with more practical applications
in 2, 20 or 200 years.

~~~
rdudek
But a -70C superconductor could theoretically be used in space environment
where the temperatures are even colder, no?

~~~
science4sail
Space is "cold", but the problem is that it's hard to get rid of waste heat in
space since you aren't surrounding by a heat-carrying fluid (air). Therefore a
-70c superconductor would still require a large cooling apparatus to function
properly.

~~~
dghughes
Yeah that threw me too when I thought the same thing I never thought about how
difficult it would be to get rid of heat in space I figured just let it go out
into space not thinking there isn't anything to send the heat into; no medium.

NASA has a nice info page about it:

[http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-
nasa/2001/as...](http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-
nasa/2001/ast21mar_1/)

~~~
logfromblammo
Basically, there's no convection, so the only way to dump heat is by
radiation.

And since a radiator absorbs as well as it emits, you need to create a shade
with reflective material and point a directional radiator in its shadow at the
emptiest space you can see.

So sure, superconductors could be really cold in space, but if their solar
shade or thermal control system fails, they are suddenly really hot.

------
afsina
Wake me up when they have an actual reasonably priced working product in the
market. This is getting tiresome as "breakthrough" news piled up but we are
still using almost 10 year old technology.

~~~
Ianvdl
R&D is not that simple and some of us appreciate this news. Coming to a thread
only to complain that you can't have something immediately only adds to the
overly negative feedback loop on HN.

~~~
farresito
His complain is not that he is not going to have it immediately, but that he
is never going to have it. And I agree with him. We keep hearing of
breakthroughs and the truth is that 99% of the time they vaporize.

That said, I'm happy to hear the amount of research put into finding better
batteries.

~~~
Ianvdl
It's always a possibility that we may never see this technology in use
commercially, that does not mean that it is insignificant and cannot lead to
an improved product later on. The work done here is still important regardless
of whether or not we'll have it in our hands within the next five years.

~~~
farresito
I agree that every bit of contribution is important. In fact, behind every big
discovery there are tens of hundreds of smaller discoveries, and hearing news
like this is fantastic.

The thing though is that by defining every discovery as breakthrough, you end
up confusing the readers and, more importantly, devaluing the discoveries that
are really going to have a big impact.

~~~
nmrm2
But "Scientists make incremental contribution to the state of human knowledge"
doesn't have that nice click-generating ring to it :-)

------
exodust
This is great. Batteries could at last hold sentimental value as we pass them
on to our children. "my granddaddy gave this battery to my daddy, who gave it
to me before he died" etc.

Seriously, when I think about battery tech advancement, I think about all
those millions of people doing it tough in temporary communities and camps
with limited power resources and inadequate infrastructure. I don't get tired
of hearing about new battery tech.

------
seesomesense
The abstract
[http://www.nature.com/nmat/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmat43...](http://www.nature.com/nmat/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmat4369.html)

------
Zarathustra30
Toyota already made a prototype solid-state last year.

[https://ecs.confex.com/ecs/imlb2014/webprogram/Paper33467.ht...](https://ecs.confex.com/ecs/imlb2014/webprogram/Paper33467.html)

~~~
creshal
Battery prototypes are a dime a dozen, but none ever seem to reach the market.

~~~
ZenoArrow
Some do... [http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/174477-at-long-last-
new-l...](http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/174477-at-long-last-new-lithium-
battery-tech-actually-arrives-on-the-market-and-might-already-be-in-your-
smartphone)

------
asuffield
My immediate observation is that "indefinite" means "unknown", not
"unlimited". I'm not sure this is the word they wanted to use, but it may be a
more accurate description.

~~~
marcosdumay
With a solid electrolyte, it means "we are not aware of any process that will
limit their lifetime - but it must die some day".

------
beltex
Exciting!

 _”My top advice really for anyone who says they got some breakthrough battery
technologies is please send us a sample cell. Don’t send us PowerPoint, ok,
just send us one cell that works with all appropriate caveats, that would be
great. That sorts out the nonsense and the claims that aren’t actually true.
Talk is super cheap. The battery industry has to have more BS in it than any
industry I’ve ever encountered, it’s insane.”_

Elon Musk

[https://youtu.be/TzquC0USTEA?t=19m8s](https://youtu.be/TzquC0USTEA?t=19m8s)

------
camillomiller
It's all quite generic in the press release. And, nobody even tries to answer
the number one question: how long until batteries like this could eventually
hit the market?

~~~
will_hughes
The other major issue being: How does this affect all the other parameters
that make a battery useful?

I mean, sure, an 'indefinite life' is fine, but not if it's got more limited
charge/discharge rates, energy densities, etc.

~~~
mpweiher
"The new battery also has an improved power capacity that is 20 to 30 percent
higher than traditional models, and can endure frigid temperatures as well"

Nothing about charge/discharge rates.

~~~
bro-stick
It's completely not characterized in any meaningful form. They shouldn't have
made any claims to the media without a real demo and comparison to show with
it. Otherwise, it does have a tendency to come off as unobtainium fogware.

------
intrasight
Not sure if this is the same "breakthrough"
[https://newsoffice.mit.edu/2015/yolks-and-shells-improve-
rec...](https://newsoffice.mit.edu/2015/yolks-and-shells-improve-rechargeable-
batteries-0805) It was also discussed in The Economist this week. Batter tech
has been stuck in a rut for a long time so it's great news that better tech is
in the way.

~~~
davnicwil
It's been so stuck in a rut, relative to the demands of what we use it for,
that it'd seem utterly magical for it to improve dramatically.

Imagine being able to use a laptop, or a phone, for days without plugging in.
Seems completely impossible now, and my mental model of power usage vs battery
drain is so set at this point that I think I'd have a really hard time
trusting a vastly better battery to really work, even after seeing it work for
a few cycles - I'd always be thinking, can this really be happening? When's it
going to fail?

Wonder how long it would take for this to go away and just become the new
norm? I'd love to look back on this post in a few years and laugh.

~~~
yason
_Imagine being able to use a laptop, or a phone, for days without plugging
in._

Can't do it with my laptop but my phone stays on for 1-2 weeks. That's the
reason I have a very basic phone, and it does everything I want my phone to
do.

I would welcome a smartphone if it could do the same 1-2 weeks between
charging. I could easily live with a "dumb phone" mode, that would just
basically sleep while keeping 2G on for phonecalls and texts, but with a press
of a button it would switch to the big operating system and allow me to check
Google Maps or use the browser. Higher current draw using those applications
would be justified, but needless activity when left idle isn't.

~~~
TsiCClawOfLight
Xperia z (at least) series devices have an "ultra stamina" mode that does
basically that. I have only tested it once, but it works really well and
should give you way over a week of mostly sleeping.

Source: I own a z1 compact.

~~~
semi-extrinsic
Even my cheap Moto G will do something similar without having an "ultra
stamina" mode. I've brought it to several hiking trips where it's been lying
unused in a waterproof bag with everything turned off except basic GSM so I
can receive calls and SMS. After 5 days the battery reports ~ 50% capacity and
projects it will last for 4 more days.

------
madaxe_again
Is there an article on this which says something other than the same thing
four times? Yes, I get they're replacing a liquid electrolyte with a solid
one, but that's all this piece says. What electrolyte? Oh, and is it really
infinite power as the article says? Of course not.

Willing to wager this is just a breathless piece on carbon-air tech.

~~~
sleepychu
The lifetime refers to how many times you can charge and discharge the battery
before it no longer works (if you have ever kept a rechargeable device for a
long time you'll notice that the battery becomes less useful over time)

------
jeroen94704
As I understand it, this does not mean you can power your laptop forever with
a single charge, only that it can be recharged an indefinite number of times.

~~~
electricblue
Right, they did not successfully rewrite the properties of matter and energy.

------
treha
Looks like a fake article the rest of the site is not working..

~~~
1ris
The rest seems to work, but it seems to almost exclusively sports and
celebrities.

------
ohitsdom
Let me guess: 3-5 years from hitting the market?

