
Minority Students Needed in Math and Science to Fight 'Brain Drain' - fogus
http://chronicle.com/article/Minority-Students-Needed-in/48568/
======
wsprague
At the risk of being downvoted, let me rant: We need to reinstate hard-assed,
traditional, back to basics curriculum. Period. Get rid of teacher
credentialing systems and touchy-feely bullshit, and have kids start
memorizing formulas, diagramming sentences, and reading classics again. And
have them do A LOT of homework. And quit telling them and their parents that
the primary thing is to have fun and feel satisfied -- it isn't.

Then we won't have a goddam brain drain -- it is an embarrassment to the
American people that we can't educate ourselves.

~~~
tokenadult
I have a somewhat different kind of suggestion for what would most improve
math teaching in the United States. See some of my favorite articles on the
subject by mathematicians

[http://www.aft.org/pubs-
reports/american_educator/fall99/ame...](http://www.aft.org/pubs-
reports/american_educator/fall99/amed1.pdf)

<http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf>

[http://www.aft.org/pubs-
reports/american_educator/fall99/ind...](http://www.aft.org/pubs-
reports/american_educator/fall99/index.html)

<http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/math/pdf/0503/0503081v1.pdf>

for the idea that proper mathematical education includes learning certain
facts by heart through practice, but also includes a lot of flexibility of
thinking and making deep connections between seemingly unrelated subjects.

~~~
wsprague
My only concern is that we have to come up with a plan that can be explained
to the 100,000 or primary school teachers in the USA. Rarefied curriculums are
like rarefied programming languages -- they don't "take", or they just
distract. We need a Python, not an ML to explain to folks, and, honestly,
"drill the crap out of your students and test them regularly" is easy to
explain in a staff meeting... and would be a vast improvement over the BS that
passes for education these days.

------
TheElder
>At a briefing session organized by Rep. Ruben Hinojosa, a Texas Democrat and
chairman of the House education committee's higher-education subcommittee,
three mathematics and science professors advocated institutional programs that
had succeeded in attracting and retaining black, Hispanic, and American-Indian
students.

What would happen if our government attempted to specifically attract and
retain white Americans in math, physics, and engineering? Maybe it wouldn't be
a bad idea, since that is the group who historically excelled in those fields
and probably have the most interest in that area, while affirmative action
type programs seem to hinder the careers of minority students who end up not
being able to handle the rigor of engineering, maths, law school, etc.

>UCLA professor Richard H. Sander published an article in the November 2004
issue of the Stanford Law Review that questioned the effectiveness of
affirmative action in law schools. The article presents a study that, among
other things, shows that half of all black law students rank near the bottom
of their class after the first year of law school, and that black law students
are more likely to drop out of law school and to fail the bar exam. The
article offers a tentative estimate that the production of new black lawyers
in the United States would grow by eight percent if affirmative action
programs at all law schools were ended, as less qualified black students would
instead attend less prestigious schools where they would be more closely
matched with their classmates, and thus perform better.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_Unite...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_United_States)

>Does affirmative action hurt minorities? Racial preferences may be setting up
many black and Latino law students for failure.
[http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-oe-
sand...](http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-oe-
sander26sep26,0,4501633.story)

------
bilbo0s
On July 26, 1948, President Truman issued Executive Order 9981. At which time
he famously said that if anyone had a problem with it he'd '...see their
resignation on his desk in the morning.'

EO 9981 was not simply a political move. Our military strategists saw during
WWII that it would be decidedly foolish for us to continue fighting wars with
one hand tied behind our backs.

Around this same time, a wave of statutes swept the nation that made it
illegal for most Americans under the age of 16 to drop out of High School. Do
not suppose that these things are coincidental. They are common sense steps
that had to be taken to address the new realities that were rapidly developing
in the post WWII world.

The world is today, again, undergoing a process of rapid geopolitical and
social change. Strategists deep in the bowels of the American Government have
looked into the future, and again, they find themselves wanting to change what
they see looking back at them.

FACT: China has more high school honors students than the United States has
high school students. That's right. If you take every high school student in
the US, the poor students and the good students, China has more students than
that in ONLY its high honors programs.

Look, the global economy will be the battlefield of choice in the future. We
do not intend to charge onto that battlefield with one hand tied behind our
backs.

The only thing wrong with this article, in my opinion, is that it excludes the
recruitment of white Americans. We SHOULD be making sweeping policy changes to
address these issues. Immigration is not going to get us out of it. I work
half the time in Ningbo or Paris myself. How long before Indians and
Indonesians figure out that the smart CVs are flowing to China not California?
They are not blind.

I feel like Truman, if you have a problem with being more aggressive with
American students with respect to instilling the disciplines of math and
science, feel free to leave the country. It is past time that we dealt with
this.

~~~
izg
I agree that this should be inclusive of everybody, regardless of ethnicity or
gender. The goal is to just have more stem majors. The more diverse the
better.

I won't get into the other topics.

------
tokenadult
This is a serious issue, and thanks for sharing the article. The president of
the Mathematical Association of America, David Bressoud, was at the hearing
mentioned in the submitted article calling for more programs to encourage
women and ethnic minorities to participate in higher education in math. This
is an ongoing concern of professional organizations of mathematicians in the
United States.

But just as a possibly illuminating contrary view, the controversial article
by Philip Greenspun

<http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science>

may be on point here. Maybe there are better opportunities for young people
who are being recruited into math and science than the opportunities provided
by math and science careers.

(Note on personal background: my oldest son, who is in the process of applying
to colleges when he doesn't plan his start-up, intends to major in math and
computer science, and has taken upper-division courses in each subject
already. But he is not part of the population groups mentioned in the
submitted article.)

------
izg
First, this isn't about affirmative action--this isn't about establishing
quotas. It's about funding programs that will help attract and _retain_
minority students in stem majors. If you don't understand that key difference,
let me know. And if you don't understand the value of such programs, then you
fail to realize what it will take for any company or country to compete
globally.

Second, there are too many factors at play to just dismiss a student's
abilities to start the next google, for example, by just assessing
standardized test scores--especially, to assess his/her potential by how well
on average his group/ethnicity performs. parse_tree, go back to my first
point.

Such programs, I don't think, are intended to have immediate results. The goal
is to retain as many people who are interested in stem majors as possible.
Yes, but I think the biggest impact will come as a result of their kids having
much more exposure and such people understanding the value of such programs
that they reach out to others.

Finally, I think a lot would be best spent at an early age--early in a child's
development. If you think a person's abilities are tied solely to genetics,
you're wrong. Nurture plays an important role, and I've seen enough evidence
to support that. Funding programs that compensate for parents not having an
adequate education (and thus have to work multiple jobs, don't read enough to
kids, etc) to offer their kids a good start.

Quick poll: of all you hackers here, how many had parents in stem majors? How
many had parents who went to secondary school? These are much better
indicators as to how well a person will do in life than race or gender. Think
about it. Many of you played with legos. Did you ask your parents to buy you
legos? Or did they buy them for you?

------
tiffani
That article has a point, but it doesn't serve any purpose other than
highlighting a problem we already know about--let's leave the dead horses
alone. As a minority (black female), it's nothing new.

> "Attracting students' interest to fields where they have been traditionally
> underrepresented is a challenge, Ms. Bozeman said."

It's a challenge for reasons the article doesn't even mention. A certain
elementary school I volunteered at during college in DC brings to mind why it
might be an issue with minorities. The school was predominantly minority--
hispanics and blacks--and it seemed like the school system had forgotten about
the kids. (Yes, we know many DC schools have serious problems.) Some of them
didn't know their ABCs, had trouble with numbers, and couldn't even write
their own names. Granted this was a kindergarten class, but it wasn't as if my
friends and I showed up to volunteer on the first day of school for them
either. We asked some of the kids if their parents helped them with their
homework, etc. and most of them said no. The school itself lacked basic
supplies (no pencils with erasers for kindergartners??). The problem starts
_wayyy_ before we've even gotten the kids to the college level and by then, I
tend to think it's a little late to be thinking of how to deal with it.

Kids have to be set up earlier than high school and college for this stuff.
And I don't mean pulling a _few_ kids aside from each class for academically
gifted enrichment activities. There definitely needs to be a wholesale
overhaul of education in such a way that all kids think about those kinds of
careers.

With that being said, I think the basic premise of the article is flawed, too.
I think we're experiencing a brain-drain all across the board and it just
happens to be the case where minorities stand out once again. I grew up in a
pretty diverse environment (military brat) and I can't say all of my white,
asian, and indian friends were flocking to AP Calculus either! lol. As a
matter of fact, most of my non-minority friends from high school who were
considered by teachers and students alike to be smart actually didn't even go
into fields like math or science--they tended to prefer journalism or law--
with the _occasional_ biology major.

This is an issue affecting everybody.

~~~
bilbo0s
So . . . uhhh . . .

What is your suggested solution.

Or are you just telling us that we can never solve our problems, so we should
just forget it?

No one here is suggesting that the solution rests with bettering the education
of only minorities. Everyone who has made a suggestion, has put forth the idea
that we need to better the education of EVERYONE. "Setting up kids early . .
." for this stuff is EXACTLY what everyone is suggesting.

~~~
tiffani
On the contrary, my comment definitely didn't say anything about improving
only the education of minorities and I definitely didn't say "just forget it."
The article _is_ about minorities, though, is it not? And I think, implicitly,
the article points at the idea that we do have to address minority education
(especially in the greater context of educating everybody) if we want more
minority scientists and engineers. My own experience points in that direction
and if we could talk to the folks in the article, I'm sure they'd say the
same.

I mentioned how the article doesn't necessarily highlight anything new and
that it's a problem everybody's facing. Sure, my comment mentioned minority
education, but in no way was I insinuating that we only should care about just
educating minorities now. That's a torrid oversimplification (and
misrepresentation) of anything I said above.

~~~
bilbo0s
So . . . uhh . . .

What is your suggested solution?

Not trying to piss you off. I just think we have a lot of people in this
country who point out all sorts of shortcomings, but do not offer potential
solutions.

You've still not told us how you would address minority education. Most people
seem to fall into the wsprague camp. You have not stated anything, other than
the problem.

~~~
tiffani
Nope, not pissed off at all. What can we do, though?

\- Change attitudes of kids. We can't continue on this trend where being smart
is considered "acting white." Surprisingly, I never got much of that back in
grade school because for some reason or another being smart was respectable
(and no, I've never been to a private school). That's always been weird in
seeing it, though, because I've seen it in _little_ kids. What the heck is a 7
year old supposed to know about "acting white"? In that same vein, we should
talk about parents (that kind of thought process had to start somewhere).

\- Change attitudes of parents. A lot of parents need to be more involved.
I've seen parents who didn't do so much as to even make sure their kid did
his/her homework because the parent didn't know how to do it (among other
reasons that are less easy to alleviate such as work schedules). The kids at
the elementary school that day confirmed it. There's a big difference between
knowing how to do your kid's homework and making sure they at least attempt
it. No, my parents had no clue how to do my calculus homework when I was in
high school, but they made sure I was doing it, though.

\- Make mincemeat of self-fulfilling prophecies. I think a lot of what happens
with black kids and other minorities (some friends have been walking examples
of this) is more of a cyclic self-fulfilling prophecy kind of thing. Nobody
around you is doing all that well, nobody around you is really perceived as
being all that smart, and so hey, why try to prove anybody wrong? Yes, as
crazy as that sounds, years ago I could have listed numerous people who had
that exact self-defeating attitude. Obviously, that's not the case for
everybody, but it's an attitude more common than a lot of people like to
acknowledge. :(

In mentioning the self-fulfilling prophecy idea, that means you' d have to get
parents more interested in what their kids were doing at school (and
immediately afterschool in a lot of instances); teachers who don't give up
easily on minority students (or any student for that matter); and finally,
minority students who see education less as a burden of some sort and more of
a ticket to a better standard of living.

\- Flat out expect more. Indeed this does go the @wsprague route, but there's
a ring of truth to what s/he is saying. I look at what Steve Perry up in
Connecticut is doing.
([http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/07/22/bia.education.success/i...](http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/07/22/bia.education.success/index.html))
He expects more out of his students (and teachers) and they rise to the
occasion. The school has a "near-zero dropout rate" and all the graduates go
to college. I don't have any stats on what they end up majoring in, but at
least they're set up to go to college.

\- Show kids they have options, keep kids informed of them, and encourage them
to pursue them. The article with Steve Perry mentions it and I saw it
firsthand in high school--minority students getting shuffled into less
demanding classes (no AP!) thanks to stereotypes and not having the
wherewithal to set themselves up for a more demanding schedule. A lot of kids
don't know about the kinds of classes that would set them up to go to college
and pursue anything of rigor. Having a guidance counselor offer you a culinary
arts course instead of an AP Biology course makes a big difference if you
don't know what you could be missing by not taking that AP class.

\- Educational parity. I witnessed my calculus teacher from high school leave
my high school for a more affluent high school. Yes, she has more students at
that high school, but if you've got a brain drain on a school level, you're
going to have it at some point on a county then state then national level. If
all the great teachers are clustered at certain schools (and school systems
_allow_ this), what happens to the other schools?

I seriously don't have all the answers, but changing the attitudes (about a
lot of things) of parents, teachers, and students seems to be a big part of it
all. If I'd had a crappy attitude about anything I'd encountered
intellectually for the last 5-10 years, I doubt I'd be _here_.

~~~
bilbo0s
OK, those sound good, with the exception of 1 and 3. Higher expectations, ie
wsprague doctrine. Educational parity. And holding parents more accountable
for how their children are doing.

With respect to 1 and 3, changing kid's attitude is not what school is for.
That's the parent's job. Further, and you are probably too young to realize
this, but ALL teens have bad attitudes. White, black, or polka dot purple. I
am at that unfortunate age where I am obliged to pay both elementary school
and University tuition. I can tell you from experience that doing homework and
getting good grades are about as important to your AVERAGE teen aged girl as
Mom and Dad say they are. And certainly no MORE important.

So when you say that black teens have bad attitudes . . . to a parent this is
not entirely surprising. ALL teens have bad attitudes. It is up to parents and
teachers to put boots to butts and force education onto what in most cases
will be unwilling students. Notice I didn't say that they needed to explain to
the student why it is good to get an education. That doesn't work with white
kids, and I have no reason to believe that it would work with black kids.
Parents and teachers shouldn't negotiate with kids. We should direct them. As
wsprague intimated, it is not about kids being satisfied or having fun, or
even wanting an education.

------
parse_tree
Those groups tend to score way below average on standardized math tests. So it
doesn't seem like a stretch to suggest this project could end up just pumping
up the number of "scientists and mathematicians" by watering down the talent
level of the whole field (and doing nothing to increase the number of Ed
Wittens, Andrew Wiles, Terry Taos, etc, whom I suspect are a lot more
important than 1000 mediocre scientists who scraped by on affirmative action).

~~~
tokenadult
Evidence for what you say in your comment? Citations, please?

~~~
parse_tree
SAT Mathematics 2009 average scores per group:

Asian: 587

White: 536

American Indian: 493

Hispanic: 461

Black: 426

Overall: 515

from here: <http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125121641858657345.html>

~~~
tokenadult
Thanks for the reply. Now what you haven't shown here is whether the actual
persons who do score high enough to major in math (by the way, is there any
evidence how high that is?) have been exhausted in current practice, or
whether some (from whatever ethnic group) are turning to other careers. In
other words, even if a decade from now there is still an ethnic score gap at
high-school-graduating age, there may be some underutilized talented young
people among the highest-scoring individuals in the lowest-scoring groups who
could beneficially be encouraged to study math. Answering this question takes
actual numbers rather than just mean scores--especially because the
distribution of scores may not be the same in each ethnic group.

As the other participant who replied to your comment (the parent to this
comment) mentioned, causation of the group score gap is still very unclear.
This year, the gap is what it is, and it may not be the best use of societal
resources to try to boost college-age participation in math classes among
students who leave high school scoring near the median standard score level on
the SAT. But it might be very worthwhile to systematically improve math
instruction in the elementary grades

<http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf>

[http://www.aft.org/pubs-
reports/american_educator/fall99/ame...](http://www.aft.org/pubs-
reports/american_educator/fall99/amed1.pdf)

and that could have a lot to do with narrowing the group gap, that is raising
the total number of students in various ethnic groups who learn enough math
through high school to be ready to thrive in math courses in college.

From the link you kindly shared:

"Mr. Finn, a former education official in the Reagan administration, said he
expected the results of the SAT and ACT -- another college entrance exam -- to
add fuel to a movement among the nation's governors and school superintendents
to come up with consistent national standards for high-school curricula."

And from further on in the same article:

"Noting the gap in achievement between lower-performing minority students and
the general population, College Board officials said those who lagged tended
to go to school in poorer districts with fewer resources. 'As a country, we
must do better providing students of every background access to the best
education,' Mr. Caperton said."

Yes, I think there are a currently a lot of laggard high schools--and I
shouldn't have to tell any participant familiar with American society what
kind of neighborhoods the worst high schools are concentrated in--that do a
bad job of teaching math, so it's high time to improve math teaching
throughout K-12 schooling in the United States.

------
geebee
Mr. Castillo-Chavez, the texas congressman who is so concerned about math and
science degrees, has a bachelor's and master's in business administration. I
was a little surprised - usually the politicians fretting about the scarcity
of Americans in science are lawyers.

A recent study by the RAND institute concluded that pay for science and
engineering graduates has been lagging badly behind other professions, and
that the low interest of Americans in these fields will change once pay
catches up.

Like that Onion article: "study finds 98% of commuters favor public
transportation for others." Seems the same for science and engineering
careers.

Maybe we need a real role model. When Barak Obama speaks, people listen, and
when our president emphasized the importance of science careers, I'm certain
that he inspired hundreds of thousands of minority students in America to one
day become lawyers who encourage engineering degrees for others.

------
wsprague
And one more thing!!

We always need to remember that there are subtle ways that students get sorted
into "smart" and "not-smart", even when we are trying to be objective:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect>

------
thras
Huh, they've got plenty of Asians and Jews already. What are they complaining
about?

 _Looks at article_

Oh, "underrepresented minority students." That's the code that colleges use to
tell Chinese and Korean students that they don't get any affirmative action
money. We didn't mean _that_ kind of minority.

The sort of minority they want is the kind that is bad at math and science.
After all, it'll be any day now that we figure out how to stop Blacks and
Hispanics from under-performing in every intellectual field of endeavor. And
then we'll have more of them than anyone else!

