

We're Rich, You're Not. End of Story. - MikeCapone
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/weekinreview/17bawer.html?pagewanted=print&position=

======
pedrocr
The statistics are misleading and muddy:

\- Comparing adjusted disposable income between Scandinavia and the US is
highly misleading. The disposable income in Scandinavia doesn't need to cover
any healthcare, education and other public services. I wonder how much, if
any, the difference is once you adjust for that.

\- The argument mistakes distribution of wealth with average output per
capita. Portugal is in the bottom of the list in the GDP per capita comparison
between US states and EU countries. In Portugal there is a somewhat high wage
disparity which means that those with high wages can afford to pay those with
low wages to get cheap pizza (the example given). The same disparity exists in
the US and pizza is cheap too, even though the US GDP per capita is at the
other extreme of the comparison. Scandinavian countries have low wage
disparity so things are more expensive by comparison. It has nothing to do
with the output of the economy.

Basically it is trying to draw conclusions about the strength of the economies
based on statistics that don't properly control for very relevant factors. The
only good argument is the 2.2% vs 3% GDP growth rates. Considering the article
is from 2005, recent events may throw some doubt into that picture. The latest
estimates on Wikipedia were 2.6% in Norway and 1.1% in the US.

~~~
chrischen
Exactly. Watermelon cost like 50 cents in China, doesn't mean people are
wealthier there.

Although for some reason the iPhone costs several hundred dollars more... But
I'm sure they'll come to their senses soon and lower it.

~~~
wisty
Domestic goods are cheap, imports are expensive. Import taxes are lower in
Hong Kong, but then service expensive.

~~~
chrischen
Domestic goods are cheap because the labor is cheap, and because the cost of
living is lower.

iPhones are expensive because China Unicom is stupid. Plus, iPhones are made
in China, so they're not imported. And the irony is that the imported phones,
which originated from China too, actually cost _less_.

------
fnid
First of all, averages aren't that significant. What are the numbers on the
median?

Furthermore, what about debt? How much credit card debt do Americans have
relative to Europeans? When I lived there, almost _no one_ even had a credit
card. They spent money they _had_.

This is really a very bad picture of the situation. I spent a lot of time in a
lot of places in Europe from Italy to the arctic circle and from spain to
Poland and I found it to be a generally richer place over all.

In fact, I was amazed at what I saw. I thought, "Wow, look at how amazing this
place is. They have everything!"

I find this article really hard to believe. Really, I couldn't care less about
the numbers, I've been there and I've seen it and Europe is a richer place
than America. It doesn't matter if we spend more on cars or not. They don't
put value in those things like we do. Europe isn't about what you have or
where you work, it's about who you are and enjoying life.

I remember once asking someone in a group, "What do you do?" just curious. The
response was, "You're so American." I didn't even realize how much status we
put on people's jobs. It's how we define ourselves.

What an eye opener.

~~~
wheels
Actually it's not just that averages are bad indicators -- the examples that
he chose are obviously hand picked to make his case -- which to a
knowledgeable reader destroys the credibility of the article in which he does
most likely have a valid point.

For example he picks a mixed drink as a buying power indicator, but Norway has
an off the charts "sin tax" on alcohol, which has little to do with the buying
power for, say, a burger.

Perceptions of quality of life are always skewed by the attitude of the
perceiver: you being on vacation, or the author being sick of Norway, for
example.

I think the real thesis of the article is that there's a gap between Norway's
perception of its own wealth and actual buying power, which really hit home
for me when I interviewed for a job there (and ended up moving to Germany
instead).

The more deeper seated cultural values, notably between how the wealth of a
society is measured, are naturally harder to measure analytically. My theory
(having grown up in the US and spent most of my adult life in Europe) is that
the US is a society that is more "hero" driven -- and people that "make it"
are more rewarded across the spectrum, whereas Europe tends to focus on a
well-functioning welfare state. As a result, the American version of poverty
is rare in most western european countries, but society is also less
structured for empowering individuals. Both have their up and downsides.

------
guelo
In the US the average worker works 1,777 hours per year, in Norway it's 1,328.
That's a lot of extra time for family, friends, hobbies, etc. They've made a
choice about their work/life balance and we (or our capitalist masters) have
made a choice about what is important to us. How much salary would you give up
in exchange for 25% less time at work?

Also, the Norwegian bottom 10% makes twice as much as the American bottom 10%.
Again, it's a matter of choices, how much of your income would you give up to
not have poor people in your community and the associated crime and social
problems?

~~~
lupin_sansei
Could you supply some sources to back up your claims, particularly about the
crime and social problems in Norway vs the US, and also work hours.

~~~
eric_t
The police in Norway doesn't carry guns, that should give you an indication...

~~~
mcd
The police in Botswana also doesn't carry guns...

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anateus
The article, as many of its ilk, presupposes that certain things are "good"
and others are "bad".

Purchasing power is used, rather than GDP as some other commenters have
assumed, but it only tells you what is possible to purchase rather than how
closely what is possible matches what is desired by that population!

Interacting with Scandinavians I've found that the concept known variously as
hyggelig , gemytligt, hyggw, koselig, gemuetlichkeit (in various northern
European languages) is very central to their cultural identities. It
represents a sort of... "social coziness", a comfortable harmony, and this is
what is sought. To me this stands in contrast to states of mind that would
make an American happy.

Don't take my comment as saying that this cultural concept somehow renders
Scandinavians superior. I find that my own preferences tend towards having the
greatest purchasing power, but without delving into the murky depths of
cultural relativism it's important to understand that the subjective
evaluation of objective economic parameters can vary wildly.

~~~
silentbicycle
While I don't know about the rest of Scandinavia, Sweden also has a prominent
cultural idea of "lagom" - that _enough_ is better than too much or too
little. "Enough is as good as a feast."

------
known

        recent research suggests that Britain and particularly
        the United States have less social mobility than the 
        Nordic countries and Canada
    

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility>

------
mortenoffline
The statistics are misleading, but the problems they point out are inherent in
the political system of Norway. The distribution of wealth using taxes
(income, land and VAT) for all political parties is more or less the same. T
here are few really rich people and few poor people. The real difference to
the US as I see it is the purchase power of the middle class and upper middle
class. In Norway, oil and the middle class is paying the bill for the
expansive and expensive state. 5 years of uni education only gets you a
25%-40% extra pay when you start out (compared to uneducated work), but makes
it possible to double it over time.

------
tianaco
This confirms my brother's stories. He has a penchant for dating Scandinavian
women--thusfar he's dated women from Denmark and Norway and has visited them
and their families.

Denmark was, of course, expensive by US standards. But upon returning from
Norway, he remarked on the absurdly high cost of living. He made lasagna for
his Norwegian girlfriend's family and it ended up costing around $60 US--just
for the ingredients and a soft drink. Eating out at a burger-type joint ran
nearly $100. It's not affordable unless you're absurdly wealthy.

~~~
michael_dorfman
I'm an American living in Norway, and I can confirm half of what you write:
the costs you describe are pretty accurate.

However, you drop the ball when you write "It's not affordable unless you're
absurdly wealthy."

The fact is, the salary range in Norway is high, and quite compressed.
Everyone can afford to make lasagna.

~~~
zackattack
Are you KIDDING me? How is this possible?

Can you please tell me exactly how much ingredients cost, and what a typical
starting salary is for a college graduate in Norway?

Not to say "I don't believe you", but I'm incredulous. This is shocking.

P.S. Why are you an American living in Norway? How is it?

~~~
michael_dorfman
My wife is Norwegian. I've been here 12 years, and love it.

In terms of salary: I've never heard of a college graduate making less than
250.000NOK = $43,000 USD, even in the most trivial, entry-level job. Note that
that's for 32.5 hours/week, with 5 weeks paid vacation and full health care
included.

I don't have the lasagna ingredient prices available at home (most items don't
have price tags, but shelf-tags at the store), but I can tell you that
gasoline is over $7/gallon, if that's something to go by.

------
tragiclos
The Timbro study that makes up the bulk of the author's argument can be found
at <http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf>. Most of the numbers
are based on the US economy circa 1995-2000.

Bonus points for equating the economic prosperity of Spain with the alcoholic
content of their drinks.

~~~
berntb
Considering the high prices of alcohol in Sweden, it is quite effective for
the local population to compare that metric.

------
dschobel
It's fascinating to see how even a nation with a free media can still have
total buy-in to an entirely delusional self-image.

Scary stuff.

~~~
electromagnetic
It's a testament to the differences between perception and reality. The NHS in
the UK regularly gets poor ratings, in fact they're regularly flat out abysmal
on national satisfaction scales, yet all out-patient questionnaire's regularly
return with satisfaction rates >90%.

People perceive the NHS as this behemoth incapable of performing, but the
reality is that it performs amazingly well and provides one of the best health
care in the world.

Perceptions of America suffer a similar thing, it's always direly low in many
countries. A very recent poll in Canada showed that they like Obama, and that
a vast majority like Americans as individuals. Yet respondents states that
Canadians dislike America on a whole more since Obama took office than before,
and that Canadians feel less safe visiting the US than before.

Even I have recognized the cognitive dissonance of liking many Americans,
liking the Presidency, I even like a vast amount of Americas culture, yet
there's something ingrained in me that dislikes 'America'. Perhaps it's just
the politics.

~~~
potatolicious
_" Yet respondents states that Canadians dislike America on a whole more since
Obama took office than before, and that Canadians feel less safe visiting the
US than before."_

Funny you mention that. I just took a train tonight from Vancouver Canada, to
Seattle WA. The difference between the two places for night and day, and what
you just said sums it up perfectly.

When I got on the train on the Canadian side, the streets are bustling with
activity, they're also clean. Homelessness is a problem, but overall the city
is kept in good shape and business is booming. The train station is old, but
kept in good repair, with many travellers milling about.

I get off the train in Seattle and I see a crumbling train station that can't
even afford to replace its light bulbs. The moment I walk out the door I am
accosted by a group of homeless folk. I am yet accosted by more homeless folk
as I make my way to the bus stop. As I ride the bus downtown the streets are
deserted, there's homeless folk _everywhere_ , people picking fights in
streets... it's like a bad 80s dystopian movie come to life. It reminds me of
_Demolition Man_ without the open firefights in the streets. I've lived here
for several months now and I _do not_ feel safe walking these streets at
night. Hell, sometimes I don't feel safe walking these streets in broad
daylight. There's garbage everywhere, poverty at levels I could not even
_imagine_ before moving from Canada. There are shootings in my neighbourhood
weekly. People I've mentioned this to blame me for living downtown, and imply
that this comes with living in an urban centre. I call bullshit: I've lived
downtown in 3 different Canadian cities, and _none_ were anywhere this bad.
One is also much larger and denser than this one.

I've only been to a handful of other American cities - but if Seattle is the
best you've got (and by national rankings it's pretty far up the list of good
cities), you guys have a _big, big, big_ problem.

~~~
sethg
I've never been to Seattle but it wouldn't surprise me if, in general, the
homeless tend to congregate in or near major train stations. They're open
24/7; they're warm; the opportunities for panhandling are good (because of the
number of people passing through).

~~~
potatolicious
Out here the homeless are just all over downtown. Without being a city planner
I'm not really qualified to say why, but I have some pet theories:

\- Seattle's transit sucks. It's one of the worst in any city I've ever lived
in. This plus the lack of any natural borders around the city (mountains,
large bodies of water, etc) has resulted in massive suburban sprawl, leaving
downtown to rot. Unlike most cities, downtown is not a hub nor a destination.

\- As a result of this, there's very little in the way of commercial
development that you would see in most cities. Where you would see the hip
shopping district in most cities, bustling with people day and night, downtown
Seattle is mainly office buildings, and thus completely deserted at night.
There is no such thing as the restaurant/hangout district that I've seen in
just about every other city I've been to.

\- Lack of social programs and policing have resulted in major arterial
streets being taken over by aggressive panhandlers and drug dealers/users at
night. People stay home as a result - I know many people who admit to staying
home at night because of sketchy characters milling about. This adds to the
desertedness, which further harms potential commercial development.

Seattle as a city is perhaps 30 years behind in its civic development. Even
with the new light rail system there is still no effective way for most people
to get downtown - the entire city reeks of crime, poverty, and dirtiness.
Walking downtown you don't get the impression of a bustling, growing city -
you see a city in slow decay, desperately trying to hold onto the image of
better times.

------
abrahamsen
At the low point (2000) the EUR was 0.8 USD. At the high point (2008) it was
1.6 USD. The (old) EU and the US are close enough economically for a factor
two to decide the outcome of most comparisons.

Also, when people say Norway is rich, it is not just because it has the second
highest GDP of the world. (see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway#Economy>).
It is also because they have saved a good part of the oil money (more than USD
100.000 per capita, see
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Government_Pension_Fund_of_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway))
preparing for the combination of an aging population and finite North Sea oil
resources). So they are rich also in the literal sense of having a lot of
money, not just spending a lot of money.

------
Confusion
These comparisons are obviously bogus. If Norway is worse than the US, why do
they have a good public healthcare system and a much lower poverty rate? And
don't get me started on that slur about 'drug users crowding the streets'.
Please, check your facts.

About 'frugal living' and 'underpaid teachers': perhaps we feel rich,
precisely because we are satisfied with our ten year old toaster and our home-
made lunch. Partly because we don't feel the need to consume-consume-consume,
as the US has brainwashed its citizens to do. Partly because of simple
cultural differences: Norwegians like to bring their own lunch; Spaniards like
to go to a neighbouring lunchroom. The relative cost of said lunchroom has
nothing to do with it.

Also nice to see this together with
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=918590> . Anyone wonder why no European
state has these kinds of problems?

~~~
coffeemug
We don't feel the need to consume-consume-consume, and we certainly aren't
brainwashed. This is really uncalled for - we do like a certain standard of
living, but it doesn't mean we're brainwashed consumption machines born to
satisfy an economic purpose as laid out by the federal reserve.

Yes, most of my friends have playstations, flat screen TVs, and leased cars.
Some of this stuff is financed by debt. But they do lead a pretty good life
and they're not crippled by debt or three backbreaking jobs.

We love to play, and we work hard to do it. It's a different mindset - there
is no reason to be insulting.

~~~
masklinn
> This is really uncalled for - we do like a certain standard of living, but
> it doesn't mean we're brainwashed consumption machines […] > > Yes, most of
> my friends have playstations, flat screen TVs, and leased cars.

See? That's how brainwashing works: you don't realize it. That's the point.

~~~
scotch_drinker
And it's just as easy to say that Europeans have been brainwashed to say
things like all Americans are brainwashed to consume, consume, consume. It's a
highly condescending argument on several levels to make sweeping statements
like that about people who have different motivations for doing what they do.

We might as well all be brainwashed, there's no proving we're not if that's
your argument.

The original poster in this thread was being insulting and condescending.
There's no other way to look at it, whether he meant to or not.

~~~
masklinn
> And it's just as easy to say that Europeans have been brainwashed to say
> things like all Americans are brainwashed to consume, consume, consume.

Absolutely, and it's probably just as true.

------
hop
The Economist's Big Mac compares purchasing power pretty well -
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index>

~~~
wisty
How will they calculate the Big Mac index for Iceland, now that McDonalds has
left?
[http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/27/news/international/McDonalds...](http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/27/news/international/McDonalds_Iceland.cnnw/index.htm)

~~~
hop
That accurately reflects a currency collapse :)

------
galactus
"Yes, yest... they have great education and great healthcare for everybody BUT
..BUT.. they have to use old furniture and prepare their own meals!!!!!! THE
US IS STILL THE BEST"

------
daniel-cussen
In the US, putting more people in prison both makes the GDP go up and reduces
the number of homeless. Nothing is distorted as GDP statistics or its GDP per
capita derivative.

------
thingie
I can get drunk for few euros (certainly less than 5), yet I don't feel rich
(neither happy). By which I don't mean the article is completely wrong, just
the presented metrics are quite strange.

------
sbt
Bruce Bawer reminds me of a religious zealot, having been confronted with
facts forcing him to accept that the world is more nuanced than what the
American post-war era he grew up in propounded. The reaction is predictable,
but ensues nonetheless.

