
Apple releases software fix for MacBook Pro slowdown - shawndumas
https://sixcolors.com/post/2018/07/apple-releases-software-fix-for-macbook-pro-slowdown/
======
joshstrange
This appears to be working as expected. Here is a graph [0] of the Intel Power
Gadget while I ran Cinebench. They are not the same length because it took
longer before the update and I cut out the parts before and after. Pretty
striking difference IMHO and it never went below base clock after the update.
I was worried about my i9 but I'm not anymore. Also if anyone is wondering it
went from 780cb -> 860cb but I wouldn't put too much stock in that since I've
got other apps open (same apps for both tests) and 3 external monitors
attached. Some people report 1100cb score after the fix.

[0]
[https://www.dropbox.com/s/y30x13mi6ozhg0k/10.16.3S-Fix.png?d...](https://www.dropbox.com/s/y30x13mi6ozhg0k/10.16.3S-Fix.png?dl=0)

~~~
white-flame
But how do the temperatures differ before & after the update?

~~~
mirimir
From what I've read, it's stable at ~92°C.[0]

That seems damn high to me, but then I'm most familiar with desktops and
servers, where you can cool far more aggressively. So is long term ~92°C hard
on CPUs?

0) [https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-macbook-pro-speed-
throttling...](https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-macbook-pro-speed-throttling-
patch-tested/)

~~~
dimillian
My old MacBook Pro I had for more than 5 years is 90% of the time around 100C.
Whenever I'm working or playing. It's still working good.

~~~
TheArcane
100C is the boiling point of water.

~~~
piva00
I hope there is no water whatsoever in your chips.

~~~
skate22
Does liquid cooling count

~~~
rtkwe
That's not in the chips. The liquid in a cooling loop doesn't get to the
temperature of the actual die if it did it wouldn't actually be cooling the
die any more. Also the temp reading are down in the die itself and there's a
gradient between the die -> heatspreader -> cooling block (air or water) ->
'cooling medium' (ie air/water).

------
ketralnis
> Following extensive performance testing under numerous workloads, we’ve
> identified that there is a missing digital key in the firmware that impacts
> the thermal management system and could drive clock speeds down under heavy
> thermal loads on the new MacBook Pro. A bug fix is included in today’s macOS
> High Sierra 10.13.6 Supplemental Update and is recommended. We apologize to
> any customer who has experienced less than optimal performance on their new
> systems. Customers can expect the new 15-inch MacBook Pro to be up to 70%
> faster, and the 13-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar to be up to 2X faster, as
> shown in the performance results on our website.

Any idea what "digital key" could mean here?

~~~
sschueller
I don't see how you can get more cooling with a firmware change when the fans
are already going at full speed.

Does that mean the whole unit will now run hotter before it starts to
throttle? How is this going to impact some of those bad solder joints MacBooks
are famous for?

~~~
coldtea
> _I don 't see how you can get more cooling with a firmware change when the
> fans are already going at full speed_

It's not about what you do when the temperature if at its peaks and the fans
are going at full speed, it's about how you avoid getting there.

> _How is this going to impact some of those bad solder joints MacBooks are
> famous for?_

When did MacBooks became famous for "bad solder joints"?

~~~
jwalton
> When did MacBooks became famous for "bad solder joints"?

There has been more[1] than one[2] case where GPUs in MBPs stopped working
because of bad solder joints. And ifixit has a guide about how to fix your mac
by putting it in the oven[3] to reflow the solder joints.

1:
[https://www.macupgrades.co.uk/store/product_info.php?product...](https://www.macupgrades.co.uk/store/product_info.php?products_id=813)

2: [https://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro-
videoissues/](https://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro-videoissues/)

3: [https://ifixit.org/blog/6882/why-i-drilled-holes-in-my-
macbo...](https://ifixit.org/blog/6882/why-i-drilled-holes-in-my-macbook-pro-
and-put-it-in-the-oven/)

~~~
scarejunba
That was an nvidia problem. All their laptop chips were affected that were in
one family. Dell replaced my motherboard four times over it.

If MacBooks are famous for it, so are all laptops with an nvidia gpu.

~~~
danShumway
To be fair, most of those other laptops aren't made by a company that's famous
for meticulously stressing details and restricting hardware configurations so
that consumers won't need to research or worry about internals.

The PC vs Mac hardware dichotomy is best summed up as, "Apple gives you less
choice so that they can exercise more quality control."

~~~
oceanswave
That PC vs Mac dichotomy really doesn’t carry into pre-built PCs and
definitely not into pre-built laptops and other portables. Both have a
responsibility for quality control.

~~~
danShumway
I agree in principle, but there is still a difference here.

Dell sells way more PCs (in much more varied configurations) than Apple does.
They're generally more repairable, and they're generally cheaper. They're also
willing to let you max out specs and build weird configurations;
configurations that arguably don't always make much sense. That range means
they also sell a few objectively cruddy laptops, so you need to be careful and
read reviews and do comparisons before you buy.

Apple positions itself as different from those companies. The comparison I'm
making above isn't something that only self-building PC nerds understand; the
same explanation is what I give to regular consumers who are trying to decide
whether to go with Windows or Mac - people who will never try to build their
own stuff.

"Should I buy a Windows PC or a Mac?"

"Do you want to spend a lot of time researching brands, reading reviews, and
thinking about hardware specs?"

I think the point still stands that Apple is positioning itself in a different
category than companies like Dell. If not, I'm gonna have some complaints
about that $3K price tag.

The closest comparison is something like the Microsoft Surface - an expensive,
premium device, with low repairability and configuration options, but
(theoretically) increased reliability with a streamlined experience that "just
works" out of the box. When the Surface line has problems, I put more blame on
Microsoft than I would put on a company like Dell in an equivalent situation.

~~~
threeseed
There is no correlation between how repairable a laptop is and its failure
rate.

You've just made this up and now are criticising Apple/Microsoft for it.

~~~
danShumway
There is a correlation between how repairable a laptop is and whether it uses
a custom build process, single-body design, or if you're directly soldering
chips onto a motherboard - all of which _can_ help with reliability. Fewer
moving parts and less build complexity means fewer places where things can go
wrong.

I wasn't criticizing Apple or Microsoft for anything when I said their laptops
weren't repairable, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt that some of
their engineering decisions around repairability are made for good reasons.

I don't think that's a particularly controversial idea. I mean, no one is
seriously going to argue that they _are_ repairable. So assuming there's a
good reason for that, this is the standard explanation that I and other people
would give to someone complaining about repairability - that Apple optimizes
for other things.

Heck, it's _the_ explanation that Apple gives: "Our devices are more reliable
when we're the only people messing with their internals."

------
ovrdrv3
Happy to see Dave2D at the forefront of this. He gives solid advice and puts
out crispy 4K content on YouTube.

Link to his channel:
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVYamHliCI9rw1tHR1xbkfw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVYamHliCI9rw1tHR1xbkfw)

~~~
curiousgal
I feel bad for the other famous YouTuber who published a video basically
saying that everyone are overreacting.

~~~
SteveNuts
For every internet action there's an equal and opposite overreaction.

~~~
davidkuhta
The 3rd Law of Emotion.

~~~
warrenm
The 3rd Law of Emoticon

ftfy

------
mikhailt
Dave (the guy who Apple mentioned working with to find this issue) already
tweeted that the performance is "soo much better". Source:
[https://twitter.com/Dave2Dtv/status/1021817313555755009](https://twitter.com/Dave2Dtv/status/1021817313555755009)

~~~
njloof
Has he tried setting it on his bare legs during the test?

~~~
satysin
Why would anyone put a high end laptop on their legs while doing a prolonged
intensive task such as video rendering??

~~~
bradenb
Isn't part of the definition of a laptop that it should be able to be used
comfortably resting on the user's lap?

~~~
dpkonofa
That's why they're _explicitly_ not referred to as laptops but notebook
computers. It's the reason Apple calls them MacBooks only and not laptops.

~~~
x2f10
You have to be kidding.

What you're referring to is a branding tactic. It has nothing to do with some
subconscious direction on how to use the device. It's not only reasonable, but
expected, that customers will use the device in their laps... no matter what
the naming convention. Come on.

~~~
dpkonofa
Not kidding at all. The entire industry made a huge hard stop and turn on the
terminology around 2001/2001 after Dell was sued because a man claimed that
his "laptop" burned his thighs/penis when the CPU/battery heated up and the
fans didn't turn on. The courts ruled that "laptop" implied that the machine
was safe to use in that manner and the guy was awarded damages. After that, it
became exclusively "notebook" or "portable" computer industry-wide. I haven't
really put any thought into it recently but I think you'd be hard-pressed to
find any manufacturer referring to their machines as "laptops" now.

Edit: It was a Dell Latitude that burned the man's penis:
[http://ftp.compal.com/Download/NB/NCL50/User-
Service%20manua...](http://ftp.compal.com/Download/NB/NCL50/User-
Service%20manual/NCL50%20user%27s%20%20manual%200430.pdf)

~~~
x2f10
>I haven't really put any thought into it recently but I think you'd be hard-
pressed to find any manufacturer referring to their machines as "laptops" now.

Oh, really? Let's see.

Dell: [https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-
laptops/sc/laptops](https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/sc/laptops)

HP:
[https://store.hp.com/us/en/cat/laptops](https://store.hp.com/us/en/cat/laptops)

ASUS: [https://www.asus.com/us/Laptops/](https://www.asus.com/us/Laptops/)

Lenovo:
[https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/c/LAPTOPS](https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/c/LAPTOPS)

Toshiba: [http://laptops.toshiba.com/computers-
tablets/home/](http://laptops.toshiba.com/computers-tablets/home/)

Acer: [https://us-store.acer.com/laptops](https://us-store.acer.com/laptops)

Samsung: [https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/windows-
laptops/](https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/windows-laptops/)

I will stop there, because it's obvious that 'the entire industry' did not
make a 'huge hard stop and turn on the terminology'. Stop being a fool.

~~~
dpkonofa
I'm not being a fool. The lawsuit must have worked out in their favor or they
appealed. I worked for 2 separate computer manufacturers during that time
where we were explicitly told not to refer to any of the portable computers as
"laptop" computers in any of our outgoing communications or marketing. I had
associates at other manufacturers that were told the same thing.

If that's not the case anymore, then that's just because I haven't bothered to
keep up with the industry as I no longer work in comms for PC manufacturers.
As I said, I haven't put any thought into it recently. I'm neither being a
fool nor am I lying, as you seem to be implying. Times change and I prefaced
my statement to admit that the info might be outdated.

I can't even believe you put all that effort into collecting those links. That
literally does not change the fact that there was an industry-wide aversion to
using the term "laptop".

------
westoque
Shouldn't there be performance testing for common tasks (rendering video) like
what Dave2D did? For a company like Apple that has a lot of resources,
wouldn't it make sense to have that department that does just that,
performance testing on specific apps. The testers can just focus on Apple
software for ex (iMovie, Final Cut) and they could have caught this "bug"
earlier.

~~~
wodenokoto
There is and they should. But bugs tend to find a way anyway.

~~~
ajross
Yeah, but... let's be honest. This kind of integration flaw is a very... well,
let's just say it's a very "Hewlett Packard" kind of bug, and the kind of
thing we've come to _not_ expect from "Apple Computer".

~~~
VeejayRampay
They're a small upcoming company, they're doing their best, let's cut them
some slack.

------
dep_b
Nice, I was going to buy the lowest spec CPU version of the 2018 yes or yes so
seeing that the thermal issues are getting improved just affirms my decision.
I think the 2018 might be the new 2015. Apple MacBooks are like classic wines,
some years are better than others, but you'll pay through the nose for every
vintage anyway ;)

My 2008 alu worked without a hitch for 10 years until a bad third party
battery started to give problems together with the keyboard a month ago and I
decided not to try to fix it anymore: that wasn't a bad investment.

~~~
joshstrange
That's my hope as well, as soon as I saw the iFixit report on the silicone
cones on the keys I pulled the trigger on the 15" i9 32GB RAM 1TB SSD and I
love it. This throttling issue worried me a lot but after the fix I am seeing
it not fall below clock [0]. I came from a late-2013 which was a great laptop
(though I know the 2015 was the sweet spot, I was going to upgrade to that if
the 2018 didn't address my top issues but it did so I went for the 2018).

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17603760](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17603760)

~~~
dep_b
That's sweet. I wasn't sure this fix would be able to tame the i9.

------
sgillen
I’m glad it was just a software bug. It still seems like Apple’s quality
control has gone way done over the last few years. My hypothesis is that there
has been a change in culture as the company gets bigger with less emphasis on
rigorous testing of the code?

It would be interesting to get some perspective from a longtime Apple employee
on this.

~~~
alistairSH
_It still seems like Apple’s quality control has gone way done over the last
few years._

I doubt it. They've had problems for years... bulging batteries, bad solder,
bendy iPhones, etc.

But, is the quality really going down, or is Apple just an easy target? I tend
to think it's more of the later. I've had Lenovos and Dells for work and
they've not been perfect.

~~~
sgillen
That’s a good point, for me it’s more that I perceive that the quality of
Apple quality control used to be very high, and now it’s coming down to earth.
It’s this shift that has people upset I think not the fact that Apple products
have more issues than those of other vendors.

~~~
rsynnott
A friend had one of those white G3 iBooks. It got replaced about five times,
and I think they eventually gave him a successor G4 one. Apple's never been
perfect.

~~~
kalleboo
My mom had one too. They put the GPU right under the wristrest, so that you'd
crack the solder just by typing. Eventually they added a plastic collar around
it but that only moved the stress to the motherboard.

------
satysin
Great to see Apple address this so quickly. The throttling issues didn't
effect me and my workload (iOS and Android development) but it clearly caused
bit issues for those doing video editing.

I have installed the update and so far so good. I have only had this 2018
model for a little over a day but I am loving the keyboard changes and
TrueTone display and performance for me is superb.

------
bwang29
Thanks Apple, now back to keyboard and Touch Bar.

~~~
blacksmith_tb
They did (quietly) roll out improvements[1] to the keyboard, though time will
tell if they actually help enough...

1:
[https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/7/19/17590100/a...](https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/7/19/17590100/apple-
macbook-pro-keyboard-membrane-dust-problem-fix-leaked)

~~~
hajile
They need to improve the key travel. If I wanted to type on a flat board, I'd
get a Yoga Book.

[https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/tablets/android-tablets/yoga-
bo...](https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/tablets/android-tablets/yoga-book-
series/Lenovo-Yoga-Book/p/ZZITZTOYB1F)

~~~
matthewmacleod
I for one am much happier with the newer keyboard and now the old one feels
weirdly mushy and gross.

I reckon keyboards are a matter of taste ultimately.

~~~
sigzero
Yes, I like the 2017 keyboard. I'm not ecstatic over it but definitely usable
for me. I also like the touchbar. Maybe I'm just weird.

~~~
xvector
TouchBar is quite amazing once you know the gestures, too. Tapping and holding
the volume/brightness key and sliding it for super-precise volume or
brightness control is an amazing feature.

------
jgh
Does this impact all macbook pros with the touch bar, or just the 2018 models?

~~~
toasterlovin
Only the recently released ones were affected.

~~~
jgh
OK, thanks for the answer instead of the downvote :P

------
xucheng
Possible details on what went wrong:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/91256u/optimal_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/91256u/optimal_cpu_tuning_settings_for_i9_mbp_to_stop/)

TL;DR The CPU is stuck in a cycle of switching between minimum clock frequency
and turbo speed.

------
S_A_P
I didn’t follow my own advice and I bought a new top spec i9 MacBook Pro. I’ve
an iMac pro with a persistent issue that causes kernel panics. Apple is
gathering information about the issue and I’ve had a few calls with an
engineer. So far it isn’t fixed.

When I got my i9 mbp I noticed the fan was quite active and it was fast, but
not significantly better than my 2014 mbp quad core. I just updated with the
fix this morning and so far I notice way less fan usage and it did seem to be
a bit snappier. I will run some benchmarks later and see where it lands. If it
isn’t working I’m about ready to abandon platform. Sucks because my entire
music studio is Mac based.

------
heavymark
It says the fix is for High Sierra. For everyone running Mojave on the new
MBP, will there be a fix for that as well, or was it previously patched in
Mojave already?

~~~
tgcordell
As Mojave is in beta right now, I don't think Apple feels obligated to rush
out a Supplemental update like they did for their production OS. Also not sure
how they would have already patched in Mojave if they hadn't had it fixed in
HS when the hardware was released.

I expect the next Mojave beta release to resolve this, but don't expect the
next release to come faster due to this bug.

------
dharma1
works ok for me after the update. Cinebench 1020 and CPU clock speed stays at
3ghz under load. Ran it several times and it's the same each time. 99fps for
the GPU in cb opengl test, though that drops a couple of fps each time you run
the test.

Temps still high, up to 95% during cb but I guess that's expected with this
type of laptop body under extreme load and can be somewhat mitigated with
external fans.

I was going to return this but will keep it now.

~~~
rasz
so still slower than older 2.6GHz i7

------
auggierose
Other reason for thermal slowdown:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16689070](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16689070)

------
Exuma
Well that's quite nice

~~~
fhood
If they are on the up and up and that really is the problem.

I hope it is though. I was getting really depressed at the idea of switching
to something else.

------
exabrial
Congrats to Apple for handling this correctly: not suing the guy. The bad news
is this escaped your QA process. That never would have happened 10 years ago.

~~~
carlesfe
> That never would have happened 10 years ago

The Macbook Pro from 2008 _literally_ had a thermal issue. It made some units
not boot at all. And it required a logic board replace, not just a software
fix.

[https://www.ifixit.com/Wiki/MacBook_Pro_15%22_Unibody_Troubl...](https://www.ifixit.com/Wiki/MacBook_Pro_15%22_Unibody_Troubleshooting#Section_Thermal_Sensor_Issues)

"If the fans run at high RPMs, but the computer does not boot, there is
probably an issue with the thermal sensors.

Late 2008/Early 2009 models feature a thermal sensor on the heat sink. First,
ensure that the thermal sensor on the heat sink is plugged into the logic
board. If it is, try replacing the heat sink. If this does not fix the
problem, the logic board most likely needs to be replaced."

------
crb002
Is this really a software bug or are they now going to have heat related
failures by voiding Intel's specs?

Just running an already hot laptop hotter can't be good.

------
unknown_apostle
Even with the fix, I'm afraid you're still shilling out a lot of money for top
hardware that can't be used to its maximum extent. Because of the thin form
factor limitations, insufficient thermal design and possibly even something as
silly as not using the best thermal paste.

And the system as a whole will still run quite hot for high CPU+GPU loads, so
who knows how that affects the electronics and battery life longer term.

Please, Apple, just make it 1mm thicker already.

~~~
ben010783
People bought them knowing that they were making tradeoffs in performance, but
the real problem was that the computers were not even hitting their advertised
specs.

------
code_duck
I had a serious slowdown issue on my 2010 MacBook Pro that took me a few years
to figure out. It started after I spilled tea on it. The system appeared to
function normally, but was very slow. When I ran top as root, it showed that
kernel process was always using one core (>100% out of 200). I tried
reinstalling the OS, changing options and upgrading, to no avail.

Apparently, the OS does this to prevent thermal damage. It perceives that the
CPU is overheating, so it sends one core into an idle loop to prevent it from
doing real work.

Finally, I took it to an Apple repair shop whose diagnostics determined the
CPU thermal sensor was not working. That didn’t immediately help. After much
web searching, I found that a fix for this it was to completely disable the
power management profile by deleting it. Now the machine works perfectly
normally in terms of everything - heat, fans and performance. The machine
seems to work identically to its original behavior, so I am puzzled at what
function the power management profile performs.

------
NightlyDev
"could drive clock speeds down under heavy thermal loads"

So now it just don't give a shit and fires away at the highest clock, without
a care in the world about temperatures?

The clock speed should go down under "heavy thermal load", that's not a bug...

~~~
haikuginger
The CPU itself had plenty of thermal headroom, but was overdrawing the power
system - which then thermally throttled itself way more aggressively and in a
less-controlled manner. The update changes the curve to ensure that the CPU
doesn't draw more power than the power system can handle for extended periods.
The CPU will still downclock itself as needed if it experiences its own
thermal overload.

~~~
NightlyDev
Are you saying Intel CPUs now can adapt to power loss, instead of just not
working? I doubt that very much. The CPU got too hot(easily reaching 100C) so
there was definetly not "plenty of headroom", in fact, there was no headroom
at all.

~~~
zaarn
It's not a powerloss but voltage goes down. Modern VRMs can also signal their
power capabilies and reserves.

If the CPU draws more current than the VRM can handle, this is usually okay
within bounds for a very short time, after than you'll get dropping voltage
when the VRM starts to self regulate and the CPU will downclock in response.

------
flying_sheep
I doubt if this patch will decrease the lifespan of MacBook. Because for
silicon chips, 10 degree Celsius rise in operating temperature will roughly
decrease life span by half. If Apple relax the temperature constraint by 20
degree Celsius (e.g. from 50 degree to 70 degree), it is expected that the
lifespan of some component will decrease by 75%.

~~~
rasz
Except macbooks almost never see 50, and rarely 70 degrees, its 80-100 all day
when actually using cpu.

~~~
flying_sheep
Oh my god. That number is unimaginable. Even if my full power desktop i7 can't
reach this number. Chips will die very quickly in this temperature. I think
Apple is having a real trouble.

------
IOT_Apprentice
Apple used an inadequately cooled VRM that's incapable of sustaining the power
required to run the CPU at full speed. See the link below.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/91256u/optimal_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/91256u/optimal_cpu_tuning_settings_for_i9_mbp_to_stop/)

