

Bailout U. - A college degree certainly doesn't mean what it used to. - adrianscott
http://spectator.org/archives/2011/11/17/bailout-u

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tsunamifury
I know there is a pretty strong superiority complex here pertaining to cs and
engineering degrees, and for good reason, you are in demand. That however does
not equate to the assumption that all people should get cs or engineering
degrees.

For example, my girlfriend and I both having writing degrees and make a six
figure income each. We both know how to script, direct media production and do
a variety of things related to technology production -- things we would not
have learned with a cs degree. We focus on, as jobs put it, the intersection
of the liberal arts and technology. I produce apps on the side that help teach
writing and logic for students.

To be perfectly honest, at work we often spend our time directing cs and
engineering majors who "don't get it" and never take the human interface,
overall purpose, or business and social impact of the product into account.
But we don't insult them, because we respect that they are very smart people
who focus on other complex problems.

~~~
tikhonj
I think the usual complaint isn't that everybody should have gotten a
cs/engineering degree but that they shouldn't complain and demonize the system
if they got a trivial degree.

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ComputerGuru
The thing I don't get is, when we were growing up (I'm from this generation of
college grads), we _knew_ that a humanities degree was utterly useless. Didn't
everyone?

We were always told that a humanities degree was just fluff, liberal arts
degrees were real degrees but you could only work as a teacher with them, and
science/professional (such as engineering, medicine, law, etc.) were the only
degrees that would convert to money.

It's nothing _new_ but reading this article, you'd think we only just
discovered this?

~~~
ebiester
Few _start_ in French literature.

Many start in Computer Science, or Engineering, or Physics, or Pre-med. They
get weeded out because of a combination of poor teachers, poor pre-college
math and science preparation, and a lack of study skills or scientific
ability.

Well, you have a year in, you're stuck in the sunk cost fallacy (Well, I've
already spent a year in college, I'm going to have all this debt anyway, so I
should get _something..._ ) and they enjoyed that French Literature elective.

~~~
philwelch
It's funny to blame poor teaching for people getting weeded out of STEM
subjects, when a lot of STEM subjects are _designed_ to weed people out.

I think it's more the case that, in our headlong rush to get as many people
through college as possible, the standards plummeted. 50 years ago, a liberal
arts degree probably had much the same academic rigor as many science degrees
have today, and so it at least demonstrated one possessed intelligence,
education, and a work ethic. Back then, you majored in French literature
because you were interested in French literature.

Actually, a lot of that might even still be true today--a liberal arts degree
from Harvard might be of value, but only because not everyone gets into
Harvard and completes a degree.

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_delirium
I'm sympathetic to this viewpoint (though I think some of the criticisms are
over-simplified), and have read a dozen or so articles on the subject. One
pops up on HN every 3-4 weeks.

So, I'm baffled as to why this particular article exists. What does this add
besides a kind of half-assed recycling of the same articles every journalist
has been writing? It's not even a particularly analytical or insightful spin
on the topic, just the same stuff we've read about many times: college degrees
are expensive, may not guarantee you well-paid employment, may not be worth
the cost. I thought that was the _lead-in_ to the article, setting the tone
with a quick recapitulation of what we've already read elsewhere, but then...
the article ended and there wasn't anything else.

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teyc
I'm 42. I've lived long enough to see mining engineers unemployed (they're hot
now); aeronautics engineers working as tourist guides; a scientist who helped
somebody win a Nobel prize working odd jobs; doctors doing menial work
<http://www.adtoa.org/index.pl?page=468> , and post-dotcom engineers who moved
back in with their parents.

Do not for any moment think that a hard technical field is necessarily
superior. What we study and how we fare is actually an adaptive feature. Just
as natural selection isn't about survival of the fittest, rather survival of
the best adapted; whether some one is employed or not is a not function of
whether they studied "hard" skills or not, but rather whether their skills are
adapted to present economic conditions.

Unfortunately, the economy is fickle. Enjoy your time in the sun, and I hope
it lasts long.

------
flacon
I have a social science degree from UC Berkeley and am a self-taught
programmer / Entrepreneur. I currently work as a Senior Software Developer.
The best programmers I have worked with over 7 years have not been comp sci /
engineering majors, while most of the mediocre programmers I have worked with
have a degree in CS or MIS - totally anecdotal I know, but thats been my
experience.

To a certain extent, what you study in college and what you eventually pursue
as a career are generally not the same. Anyone with more than a few years in
the field will understand that. Experience trumps a degree after 2-3 out in
the field and you can set your own course.

Feel free to disagree, just let me know how many years of work experience you
have.

~~~
kmfrk
How did you get into the business?

While people with degrees/diplomas may not be good at programming, they at
least have something tangible to show potential employers, while people
without one need to be more ... creative.

It reminds me on the focus on grades - ALONE - in my country. An absolutely
atrocious metric, but a metric the institutions can understand, at least.

~~~
flacon
After college I started doing some web development on the side, which really
took off. I spent like 100's of late nights hacking and learning. I think
there is really no other way to get good or learn things but through hard
work. You can either be forced to do it (like via a degree or taking classes
etc) or just force yourself on your own. I started doing simple thing than got
excited to do more and more complex features, apps, systems etc. Now I do lots
of System Admin and DBA, product management etc. I know many people that have
followed the same path: studied X but now do Y.

"they at least have something tangible to show potential employers"

Maybe, depends on the organization. I worked for a startup where we passed
over a lot of CS resume's b/c they had no tangible experience, no interesting
side project, nothing they were hacking on, nothing that stood out, including
people with Ivy league CS degrees.

~~~
kmfrk
I share you sentiment completely, but the discrepancy between how things
_should be_ and how they _are_ can be gigantuan at times.

Did you get a job by responding to a listing or something more out of the box?

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Tycho
We don't need degrees anymore. You can learn stuff off the internet.

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ryanschmidt
Couldn't agree more

