
The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius - rohan404
http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html
======
molsongolden
I have a copy on my nightstand that I read semi-frequently. It's interesting
to keep in mind that he wrote them as a personal journal and never intended
for his writings to be read by a broader audience. He frequently chastises
himself and one of my favorite reflections comes from the beginning of Book V.
The translation from the OP isn't the best but it's all I have on hand:

"In the morning when thou risest unwillingly, let this thought be present- I
am rising to the work of a human being. Why then am I dissatisfied if I am
going to do the things for which I exist and for which I was brought into the
world? Or have I been made for this, to lie in the bed-clothes and keep myself
warm?- But this is more pleasant.- Dost thou exist then to take thy pleasure,
and not at all for action or exertion? Dost thou not see the little plants,
the little birds, the ants, the spiders, the bees working together to put in
order their several parts of the universe? And art thou unwilling to do the
work of a human being, and dost thou not make haste to do that which is
according to thy nature?- But it is necessary to take rest also.- It is
necessary: however nature has fixed bounds to this too: she has fixed bounds
both to eating and drinking, and yet thou goest beyond these bounds, beyond
what is sufficient; yet in thy acts it is not so, but thou stoppest short of
what thou canst do. So thou lovest not thyself, for if thou didst, thou
wouldst love thy nature and her will."

~~~
joaorico
I recommend Gregory Hays' new translation, without the 'thou's and 'dost's.
[http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-New-Translation-Modern-
Lib...](http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-New-Translation-Modern-Library-
ebook/dp/B000FC1JAI)

"At dawn, when you have trouble getting out of bed, tell yourself: ‘I have to
go to work–as a human being. What do I have to complain of, if I’m going to do
what I was born for–the things which I was brought into the world to do? Or is
this what I was created for? To huddle under the blankets and stay warm?

\- But it’s nicer here…

So you were born to feel “nice?” Instead of doing things and experiencing
them? Don’t you see the plants, the birds, the ants and spiders and bees going
about their individual tasks, putting the world in order, as best they can?
And you’re not willing to do your job as a human being? Why aren’t you running
to do what your nature demands?

\- But we have to sleep sometime…

Agreed. But nature set a limit on that–as it did on eating and drinking. And
you’re over the limit. But not of working. There you’re still below your
quota.

You don't love yourself enough. Or you'd love your nature too, and what it
demands of you. People who love what they do wear themselves down doing it,
they even forget to wash or eat. Do you have less respect for your own nature
than the engraver does for engraving, the dancer for the dance, the miser for
money or the social climber for status? When they're really possessed by what
they do, they'd rather stop eating and sleeping than give up practicing their
arts."

~~~
cm2012
I'd rather be comfortable. The life of animals in the wild is generally brutal
and short - give me my blankets any day over some sense of duty.

~~~
Jach
This thread reminded me of an excerpt from the beginning of
[http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/dimtext/kjn/people/heavies...](http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/dimtext/kjn/people/heaviest.htm)

"Dionysius of Heracleia was notorious for his appetite, and eventually grew so
weighty that he could scarcely budge: he suffered from apnea or narcolepsy
besides, prompting his doctors to prick his flesh with needles whenever he
fell asleep on his throne. A contemporary poet has him declare that he aspired
to end his days 'on my back, lying on my many rolls of fat, scarcely uttering
a word, taking labored breaths, and eating my fill,' for of all the ways a man
might die, an excess of luxury was the only truly happy death. Nevertheless,
he lived to what was then the ripe old age of 55, earning a reputation for
fairness and generosity that competed with his size as an object of
astonishment."

Rejection of duty is rejection of responsibility. I have no complaints about
people who do so -- and would enjoy more vacations of that sort myself -- so
long as they've set up their lives to not be responsible for others during
their rejection period. It may be better to find ways of enjoying life's
comforts while staying on top of your business, though.

------
niels_olson
I highly recommend William Irvine's A Guide to the Good Life, then reading
Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, et al.

As an aside: I listened to Irvine on audiobook immediately after listening to
Sherry Turkle's Alone Together. It was like reading about a disease and then
the treatment. Recommend, would do again.

~~~
jacobolus
I’d recommend skipping Irvine’s book and just going straight to the sources. I
didn’t feel like he added much, and thought his book was poorly structured and
overly didactic; too close to the style of the popular self-help book for my
taste. I also felt like he projected many of his own opinions/conclusions back
on the authors he was discussing.

Maybe my impression is biased by the uninspiring quality of his prose on a
sentence-by-sentence and paragraph-by-paragraph level though: I’m pretty
sensitive to bland fuzzy writing.

~~~
jedc
I disagree. I thought that his book framed the larger issues of stoicism well,
so I could better understand the source material as the next step.
(Particularly since some of the translations use language that's not
particularly accessible).

------
morganf
Um. Last year, I re-read Gibbon's Decline and Fall, and my favorite chapter
(written in such a funny way!) is his detailing how his wife was having sex
with everyone under the sun, and everyone in Rome knew it. Except for Marcus
Aurelius himself; he lived in such a bubble, he couldn't see the reality in
front of his nose. He was so unable to teach his son, Commodus, that when his
son became emperor... well, Commodus turned out to be one of the most cruel
and evil emperors in the history of Rome.

This made me question the "wisdom" of his Meditations (which, as a kid, I
loved reading and whose advice I used to love): knowing this is how he lived
and ruled and raised children, and those were the consequences... are we sure
it's good advice? I'm not anymore.

Text here: [http://sacred-texts.com/cla/gibbon/01/daf01013.htm](http://sacred-
texts.com/cla/gibbon/01/daf01013.htm)

~~~
ubernostrum
Marcus also broke with tradition on the succession. Previously, emperors would
look for someone who seemed to fit their idea of a good heir, and then adopt.
Marcus broke that tradition and simply passed the throne on to his biological
son, with disastrous consequences.

~~~
Mvandenbergh
Not really tradition, the previous few generations of emperors simply didn't
have any sons so they didn't have a choice.

------
jjbohn
This has become my preferred translation. It's a great modern translation and
uses very approachable language. To me it reads much more like a journal than
the other available translations.

[http://amzn.to/1xy6LYZ](http://amzn.to/1xy6LYZ)

~~~
ams6110
Thanks for the recommendation (really) but please don't use URL shorteners.

~~~
voltagex_
Also, if you went to that link, your session (?) is now tagged with the
affiliate code "mushavproboo-20".

~~~
jjbohn
For kicks and transparency sake, here's the bitlink:
[https://bitly.com/1xy6LYZ+](https://bitly.com/1xy6LYZ+)

------
amelius
Just checked wikipedia [1], and found this critique:

> D.A. Rees calls the Meditations "unendingly moving and inspiring", but does
> not offer them up as works of original philosophy. Bertrand Russell found
> them contradictory and inconsistent, evidence of a "tired age" where "even
> real goods lose their savour". Using Marcus as an example of greater Stoic
> philosophy, he found their ethical philosophy to contain an element of "sour
> grapes". "We can't be happy, but we can be good; let us therefore pretend
> that, so long as we are good, it doesn't matter being unhappy".

Can anybody agree/disagree/comment?

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations)

~~~
Kaibeezy
I'd be interested in reading more along those lines too. Anyone recommend an
article or book?

~~~
jjbohn
Supposedly, The Obstacle is the Way is in the vein. I haven't read it yet;
it's on my list this month though. Supposedly a fairly good read though. It's
written by a big PR guy though so who knows.

[http://www.amazon.com/Obstacle-Way-Timeless-Turning-
Triumph/...](http://www.amazon.com/Obstacle-Way-Timeless-Turning-
Triumph/dp/1591846358/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1415579427&sr=8-1&keywords=the+obstacle+is+the+way)

------
rokhayakebe
Anyone who loves Marcus's Meditations will be blown away by Epictetus.

~~~
benrhughes
I completely agree. It's not surprising though: Discourses and The Enchiridion
were delivered as lectures; Meditations is a personal diary.

Marcus was obviously heavily influenced by Epictetus, and at times manages to
state some of his ideas more poetically (esp in the Hays translation). Overall
though, The Enchiridion is a much better base for Stoic philosophy. It's
short, acerbic and almost every section can send you off into deep thought.

Meditations is mostly interesting as an example of someone trying to life a
Stoic life - it shows Marcus' failures, his attempts to conquer his fears.
It's well worth reading, but you'll learn more from Epictetus.

Edit: for Epictetus, I prefer the George Long over the Elizabeth Carter:
[http://www.ptypes.com/enchiridion.html](http://www.ptypes.com/enchiridion.html)

~~~
rokhayakebe
_Every section can send you off into deep thought_

I read Discourses, and frankly I was not aware of Enchiridion until today. I
can that every sentence or paragraph of Discourses got me to pause, and think
hard.

------
segmondy
Definitely a good read, You can download it in audio format,
[https://librivox.org/the-meditations-of-marcus-
aurelius/](https://librivox.org/the-meditations-of-marcus-aurelius/)

It was easier for me to just load up in my mp3 player and digest.

------
wslh
Note: if you want the mobi/kindle/epub format you can go to:
[http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2680](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2680)

------
droopyEyelids
If you really dig Meditations, I recommend reading a couple translations side
by side. They're all subtly different, and I find it helps me get a better
grasp on the ideas Marcus was expressing to see how different people
translated.

Here are some discussions on the different translations:

[http://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/137knd/survey_best...](http://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/137knd/survey_best_meditations_by_marucs_aurelius/)

[http://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/jaqm1/whats_the_best_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/jaqm1/whats_the_best_translation_of_marcus_aurelius/)

~~~
vlowther
A better (if more time consuming) option is to learn Latin and read it in the
original.

~~~
WallWextra
Weren't they written in greek?

~~~
jeangenie
Definitely Latin. By the time Aurelius was emperor the Greeks had already been
overtaken by the Romans.

Edit: Incidentally, a simple Google would've shown it was written in Greek:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations)

Never trust people on the internet, even yourself.

~~~
mhartl
The Romans conquered the Greeks politically, but culturally the influence went
mainly in the other direction, and in fact the _Meditations_ (per my comment
at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8580261](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8580261))
were written in Greek.

~~~
xaritas
As Horace wrote around 14 BC:

 _Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit et artes intulit agresti Latio._ \- Ep.
II.i.156

"Greece, once conquered, herself conquered the artless victor, and planted the
banner of civilization in the farmlands of Rome."

I have translated freely and taken considerable license.

By Aurelius' time, familiarity with Greek for the ruling classes was a given;
as a matter of preference, it is a more supple language and probably more
comfortable to use for putting abstract reasoning to words.

------
SixSigma
To get a flavour of Stoic philosophy you can listen to some short readings of
Seneca's letters, they are only a couple of minutes for each one.

[http://www.lettersfromastoic.net/](http://www.lettersfromastoic.net/)

------
quantamemnon
A variation on this theme by an Anonymous "lion" of finance has recently been
digitized and put in the public domain. Here then from 1940, for your Sunday
delectation is an underground classic, with a scintillating forward by
American anarcho-capitalist Albert Jay Nock:

Meditations in Wall Street

[http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b3570107;view=1up;...](http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b3570107;view=1up;seq=9)

------
Kenji
I have read about half of the book. It's a really good and philosophically
inspiring read, though he has some silly convictions, like that his uncle is
very modest because he does not care about the beauty of his slaves. The stark
contrast of the stoic philosophy and those silly convictions fascinates me.

~~~
ulisesrmzroche
To be fair though, you have to keep in mind in what part of history this was
written. That may have been very modest behavior in that era.

~~~
xaritas
Indeed. Not being familiar with that particular passage, my thought would be
that he means, his uncle does not consider the status-signaling property of
"beautiful" (and expensive) property to have any utility. This seems in line
with Stoic reasoning.

I would also assume that by "slaves" he means, legal status aside, what would
be called "the help" in a different era, i.e., the most visible members of a
wealthy person's household and retinue. I'm sure that nobody was socially
shunned because their salt-miners and ice-cutters were hideous to behold.

------
hvass
Meditations have already been discussed on HN:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5160713](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5160713)

There are great recommendations in there if anybody wants to dive deeper into
Stoicism or understand Meditations better.

------
ca98am79
This is one of the best books I have ever read - I highly recommend it. It
inspired Tolstoy, Gandhi, and many many others.

There were many quotes in this book that have had a deep impact on me. One I
thought was interesting is this:

> Live not as though there were a thousand years ahead of you. Fate is at your
> elbow; make yourself good while life and power are still yours.

It struck me that even if Marcus Aurelius had actually lived a thousand years,
he would have died a thousand years ago.

------
qodeninja
Thanks for sharing this. I had started reading about Philosophers years ago
and almost completely forgot about it. This sparked my interest again.

------
shire
I've been looking into this line of thinking a lot for the past year.
Beautiful stuff truly.

------
tempodox
Nice. But I miss the original. Couldn't they have put 2 languages side by
side?

------
3rd3
What kind of insight can I expect from reading this?

~~~
nisa
Cognitive Behavior Therapy is modelled after stoic principles. It's a mental
model to survive hardship and stay on course no matter what is happening in
your life.

Another insight if you want to call it so is that the texts are 2000 years old
and they still apply to daily life now.

------
chrxn
This translation (Long) is my favorite.

------
DrMikeTyson
I just don't get why this is at the top of Hacker News. Should I post a
fucking copy of Walden next week?

~~~
grey-area
You forgot to mention that the meditations has probably been posted several
times on HN this century; it's not new to anyone (not even news), and it
should really have [0167] in the title to make this clear, so that you can
skip it because it's not up to the minute technology ephemera.

 _Should I post a fucking copy of Walden next week?_

Sure, why not, Walden is also a great book and foundational text and raises
questions about the relationship of the state to its citizens which are
increasingly appropriate for people working in the global online community to
consider. It's also a great read.

Compared to the content of most of the links on HN, both Walden and the
Meditations have more insightful commentary, and more generally applicable
lessons, than most of the websites posted on here will produce over their
entire lifetime.

