
U.S. drone strike kills 30 pine nut farm workers in Afghanistan - tepidandroid
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-attack-drones/u-s-drone-strike-kills-30-pine-nut-farm-workers-in-afghanistan-idUSKBN1W40NW
======
torstenvl
This is deeply tragic. I wish the story gave more details. Based on the
provincial governor's statement, it sounds like U.S. forces were relying on
the Afghan government's intelligence assessment.

I also wish news sources would be more careful about suggesting that there are
autonomous killer robots in the sky. The _drone_ didn't target anything. A
remote pilot did, based on information he/she was provided.

~~~
tehjoker
The US can't sustain casualties and maintain any popular support for the war
or the reputation of the military, so they use remote control killing machines
on people the media don't care about. Unless you have people on the ground
(and even then!) you can't really be sure of your intel. This media strategy
allows them to not care about the quality of the intel. While the power of the
state is still terrifying, it is vastly weaker than during the Vietnam era.

------
Phillips126
I have kids and live in a rural U.S. town. I fear "normal" things such as
drugs, school/gun violence, sex predators, etc. This... this is next level. I
couldn't even fathom what it would be like if missiles rained from the sky at
faster-than-sound speeds - from another country no less. You could say: "There
aren't terrorists in rural U.S. towns," but I'd argue that isn't the case
anymore with all the mass shootings, racial hatred, and so on. The world is in
such a sad state.

------
wruza
Now imagine “U.S. drone strike kills 30 pine nut farm workers in France” and
feel the difference (which is non-existent). Then it goes on tv and reads the
list of this morning’s evil men who must be stopped.

~~~
whiddershins
Now imagine

“France knowingly harbors 911 terrorists.”

“French leaders take credit for car bombing which kills 23 civilians.”

There’s a historical reason for this discrepancy.

~~~
brosinante
The US "knowingly harbored" nazi war criminals.

------
zxcvbn4038
Notice the wording - the drone targeted the workers. The drone didn’t make a
decision and target the workers, the drone pilot targeted the workers, and
whomever was standing behind them gave the order to launch the missle. The
whole “I’m just doing what the computer said” defense only works in movies.

~~~
igravious
Imagine being the person (even if you had little personal autonomy in the
matter) who pulled the trigger or pressed the button. Imagine finding out what
you had done. Would it break you?

~~~
trymas
Someone should correct me if I am wrong, but military training is mostly about
obeying orders and desensitizing about what's going on the receiving end of
your actions.

I have watched Restrepo on Netflix and found one thing interesting, that
biggest thing soldiers have missed in their civilian lives is the
adrenaline/joy rush of a shoot-out, no matter how dangerous it is.
Paradoxically most of the interviewees are clearly suffering from some levels
of PTSD, because probably you cannot be trained for when you see your friend's
body/face to be blown apart.

It would be interesting to hear from someone in the military or someone with
military psychology training knowledge, how this works. Seems that soldiers
are fine with killing "the enemy", but seeing death of your friends gives you
(understandably) PTSD.

~~~
matwood
I usually avoid these conversations about the military, because it's such a
hot button issue. I have many family members who were/are in the military. I
have one family member who died in WW2, buried in a US cemetery in France.

> but military training is mostly about obeying orders

Not at all. The military wants individuals to think for themselves. Strictly
obeying orders would never get the job done. In fact, the large majority of
military training is industrial/trade depending on the branch. When people see
bootcamp, and orders being thrown around that's less of learning to obey and
more of making people into a cohesive team (breakdown, then buildup). Think
about how tight a startup team is after going through hell to get a product
launched. Very similar but even tighter.

> that biggest thing soldiers have missed in their civilian lives is the
> adrenaline/joy rush of a shoot-out, no matter how dangerous it is

A very small percentage of the military ever gets in a firefight, again
depending on branch. Of course there is an adrenaline rush that comes out of
being in danger (just shooting guns in general is a rush). Every time I paddle
out into big surf or when I have sky dived, the chance I may die is part of
the 'fun'. I've never been in a shoot-out, but from what I've read it's those
experiences X 100 or more. Finally, these are the exact type of people we want
fighting. The best way to survive and win is to go all in 100%. When someone
is there, on the ground being shot at, the time for them to debate is over.

> Seems that soldiers are fine with killing "the enemy"

Keep in mind that the US has strict rules of engagement (mistakes are
sometimes made as reports have shown). By the time a soldier is killing the
enemy they are also going to be receiving fire. Effectively if they do not
kill this person, this person will kill them. Seeing friends die is obviously
hard because they are your friends, and because of the way teams are built
people end up very close.

With all that said, the military is the execution arm of politicians. A
soldier on the ground has about as much power to decide to be in or out of war
as you or I. People join for a lot of reasons. Financial is a common one. But,
a lot of people also join out of a duty and a draw to be of service to a
country they love regardless of who is POTUS at any given time.

~~~
Consultant32452
>By the time a soldier is killing the enemy they are also going to be
receiving fire.

I think this is what concerns people so much about the drone strikes. Clearly
drone strikes are one sided fire fights. And even by the government's own
statistics their signal to noise kill ratio is abysmal. This is categorically
different than a soldier on the ground returning fire even if we might
disagree with the soldier having been sent there in the first place.

~~~
matwood
Yeah, drone strikes are a tricky situation. On one hand, it's great that no
Americans are put in harms way (other than the philosophical question if war
should be so 'easy'), but I think we have seen time and again that
intelligence is not good enough to kill others without having people on the
ground.

This is not a new problem though. Cruise missiles did this for years before
drones. Drones are just more prolific now, and we are more likely to see the
aftermath.

------
stunt
Today I saw the BBC's "Bitter Lake" documentary. It explains why Afghanistan
is so fucked up.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p0z6iHGzdE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p0z6iHGzdE)

~~~
darkr
Don't get me wrong, I love an Adam Curtis film as much as the next guy, but...

His films should be interpreted as you might interpret a Malcolm Gladwell
book: An entertaining, insightful, witty, and educational way of telling a
story that the author wants to tell, supported by hand-picked facts and part-
truths, whilst ignoring other information that might reveal a more well-
rounded story.

------
stargazing
Can someone explain to me how the US military is still unable to distinguish
pine nut farmers from IS Jihadi terrorists? Where is all this advanced
military tech I keep hearing the US military is developing that people are
mistaking for aliens?

~~~
hatchershoes
The world's largest, most expensive military does not make mistakes. If they
admit a mistake, it's to cover up something far more nefarious.

~~~
arcticfox
Every organization in the world makes mistakes all the time.

~~~
saagarjha
I’m assuming the grandparent comment is sarcasm.

------
whiddershins
I wonder why, even though we generally try to be skeptical of the news, I’m
not seeing many comments here that question whether what this article is
saying is even accurate.

How exactly does the reporter know which people are IS fighters? Is there some
notion that militants don’t ever also farm?

Also in these comments there seems to be a huge double standard. The idea the
United States might accidentally kill some civilians is somehow morally
outrageous, but the regular and deliberate targeting of civilians by the
Taliban and the IS as they attempt to completely destabilize the Afghan
government is taken as somehow normal?

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _How exactly does the reporter know which people are IS fighters? Is there
> some notion that militants don’t ever also farm?_

The article says it explicitly: the information is sourced from Afghan
officials.

You could say that this may not be the most trustworthy source in this case,
and I'd agree, but on the other hand, the problem of mounting civilian
casualties of US drone strikes is already a decade if not more old, was widely
reported on a few years ago, and is continuously being investigated by various
organizations. If what Afghan officials are saying is true, it would not the
least bit surprising - and that fact _is_ a huge problem.

> _Also in these comments there seems to be a huge double standard. The idea
> the United States might accidentally kill some civilians is somehow morally
> outrageous, but the regular and deliberate targeting of civilians by the
> Taliban and the IS as they attempt to completely destabilize the Afghan
> government is taken as somehow normal?_

I think no one in their right mind would say that what the ISIS or other
terrorist groups are doing is anything but repugnant. They're doing evil
things, that's a baseline fact, so it's unmentioned - there's nothing
interesting in pointing this out. What's more interesting is where did ISIS
come from and why are they doing what they're doing, and a significant part of
the answer to that question is American military excursions and regular,
continued murder of civilians using remote-piloted drones. ISIS may be
monsters, but the US is supposed to hold itself to higher standards, not step
down to the same level.

~~~
whiddershins
That’s simply untrue. They are trying to set up a Caliphate. Not everything is
a reaction to something the US did.

Shall we just let Israel get wiped off the map while we are at it?

Edit: “they” in my sentence is IS, and Al-Qaeda, if that wasn’t obvious.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Nothing to do with the power vacuum left by the US after destroying Iraq and
Afghanistan? Nothing to do with weapons and training distributed in that
region by the US many years ago? Nothing to do with drone strikes fueling
anti-American sentiment that's then used as motivation and justification for
performing acts of terror?

I didn't say US is the whole reason here. But it's a big part of it.

------
pvaldes
Would be really so unthinkable a high army charge going to the area to make in
place a public televised apology to those people, asking how can help
alleviate this disaster, and returning the families a little dignity at least?

And please journalists, stop referring to the people as "tribal this" or
"tribal that". To always focus on that point is unnecessary and disrespective.
A father is a father in any part of the world.

------
gcatalfamo
This is how you create terrorists. What do you think the children and friends
feelings towards the US will be from now on? People get radicalized for much
less than that.

~~~
draugadrotten
Their feelings will be affected and rightly so, it is a tradegy. However the
feelings of a few people about an error can not be the single parameter to
decide if drone strikes are used. War have casualties.

What about the feelings of the children and friends after 9.11, Charlie Hebdo,
Bataclan, Nice, Stockholm, Trèbes, Paris, Liège and Strasbourg? I could go on.
Of the 24 jihadist attacks in the EU in 2018, 10 occurred in France, four in
the United Kingdom, four in the Netherlands, two in Germany and one each in
Belgium, Italy, Spain and Sweden. In 2017, a total of 62 people were killed in
ten completed jihadist attacks in the European Union, according to Europol
figures. The number of attempted jihadist attacks reached 33 in 2017.

If a single drone strike is how you create terrorists, what is being created
in Europe?

~~~
mad_tortoise
How many "error's" does the US make? Far too many for them to be called
"error's" anymore. How many kids were radicalised by the US going into Iraq
and killing millions of their people? Tens of thousands of orphans, with an
evil imperial army coming into their home, bombing their farms, raiding their
homes, murdering civilians. Enough to create ISIS and radicalise thousands
upon thousands more.

How many families were put out by 9/11? About 3000. And you call that an
excuse to invade Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Pakistan etc etc etc. So
3000 American lives, taken by Saudi Arabian citizens, cost the lives of
millions across the world so that the American people can feel good about
their hegemony?

Al-Qaeda won that war before the US even left their own soil. They had one
aim, bring about the end of the USA, and they did it by getting your own
government to strip away civil liberties overnight, and you didn't even care.

~~~
golergka
> How many "error's" does the US make?

Usually it's measured in the ratio of civilian casualties to combatants, and
as far as I remember, US is keeping this ratio exceptionally low in comparison
to other conflicts.

That's the key point here: your criticism applies to any war at all. War is
hell, everybody knows that. To be objective in your judgement about US though,
you have to quantatively compare different conflicts to each other.

~~~
input_sh
Your memory is wrong. You may want to look that up before making such a dumb
claim:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._drone_strikes#Total_numbers)

Ratio of 15-20% civilian deaths is not "exceptionally low" by any means.

~~~
golergka
But it is EXCEPTIONALLY low - even more so than I remember.

> Starting in the 1980s, it was often claimed that 90 percent of the victims
> of modern wars were civilians.

> The Vietnamese government has estimated the number of Vietnamese civilians
> killed in the Vietnam War at two million, and the number of NVA and Viet
> Cong killed at 1.1 million—estimates which approximate those of a number of
> other sources.[19] This would give a civilian-combatant fatality ratio of
> approximately 2:1, or 67%.

> During the First Chechen War, 4,000 separatist fighters and 40,000 civilians
> are estimated to have died, giving a civilian-combatant ratio of 10:1.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Cheche...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Chechen_wars)

~~~
mad_tortoise
So essentially what you're saying is that it's ok to kill million's of people
in Iraq and Afghanistan as long as it fit's into a ratio that they're killing
enough enemies to make civilians inconsequential? What utter bullshit you
spout and a sad world you live occupy in your own head.

------
pgreenwood
On a side note it's very interesting to re-watch Rambo III, where he teams up
with local jihadists in Afghanistan to fight the occupying Soviets in the
area. Hollywood propaganda at its finest, but brutally ironic today.

------
petre
Both the Taliban and the US are killing innocent civillian bystanders. This is
more and more common with drone strikes. It was konwn that it's pine nut
picking season and the governor of the province was informed. There was wither
miscomunication or the US forces simply ignored the fact and launched the
strike anyway.

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-attack-
drones...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-attack-drones-
letter/letter-detailing-civilian-presence-failed-to-prevent-deadly-afghan-
drone-strike-idUSKBN1W431P)

The Taliban were all too coward to plant a car bomb in the proximity of the
government intelligence department building, so what they did was to plant it
next to a nearby hospital.

[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/09/killed-car-bomb-
attac...](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/09/killed-car-bomb-attack-
afghan-province-zabul-190919042138106.html)

------
techsin101
This is simply what made to the news.. war crime for which no one will be held
accountable, double standards.

------
Roboprog
Why are we there?

What’s the threat, again? I forgot.

~~~
whiddershins
The anniversary of 9/11 is a week ago and you forget?

~~~
Roboprog
Have they given up Bin Laden yet?

Isn’t it just a little ironic that one of our “allies” was harboring OBL?

Lesson learned: nukes are a VERY effective deterrent to foreign invasion.
That’s what we’re teaching countries in the Middle East.

------
derpherpsson
Just keep bombing somewhat random people, year in and year out. Are we at the
2nd decade of this yet?

This way I promise no one will join the rebells. Why would anyone join the
rebells just because their families are slaughtered? That's absurd.

(Irony.)

There comes a time when _YOU_ would strap on a bomb belt. Just imagine that
They killed half your family and then goes on telling you they will continue
doing it...

~~~
mikejb
> There comes a time when YOU would strap on a bomb belt. Just imagine that
> They killed half your family and then goes on telling you they will continue
> doing it...

It's not that hard to imagine - after 9/11, people did enlist themselves to go
and start shooting at others, sometimes with the consequence of dying
themselves, believing it is for the greater good.

------
richardw
If Afghanistan mistakenly killed 30 Americans there would be hell to pay

~~~
randunel
> If the Afghan _military_ killed 30 Americans _on US soil_

FTFY

------
amingilani
Related: Pakistan body count[0]. "Whether it is a suicide bombing or an attack
by a flying drone, for me it's the same: a Pakistani got killed."

I posted this site a few years ago, but it didn't get attention, but I'm glad
to see the community is finally outraged over drone strikes.

[0]: [http://pakistanbodycount.org/](http://pakistanbodycount.org/)

~~~
waffle_ss
The site doesn’t differentiate between terrorists and civilians killed, so I
don’t get the point? It’s not like Pakistan is running low on terrorists or
the state intelligence service ISI isn’t sponsoring their activities.

~~~
amingilani
> The site doesn’t differentiate between terrorists and civilians killed

It does[0].

> It’s not like Pakistan is running low on terrorists or the state
> intelligence service ISI isn’t sponsoring their activities.

I don't know how to respond to that, since there isn't a question in there,
just a belligerent statement. I suppose the best way is to simply not engage.

[0]:
[http://pakistanbodycount.org/definitions.html](http://pakistanbodycount.org/definitions.html)

~~~
waffle_ss
I saw the definitions page but my point is about the tally number which seems
to be conflating everything together[1] (adding dead terrorists into the
tally), which I think is disingenuous.

Compared to, for example,
[https://www.iraqbodycount.org](https://www.iraqbodycount.org), which only
counts civilian deaths (which I assume based on the name is the inspiration
for this page).

[1]:
[http://pakistanbodycount.org/drone_attack.php](http://pakistanbodycount.org/drone_attack.php)

~~~
amingilani
True, and I don't know what the rationale behind their specific motivation is,
but if I were to make a website, I'd do the same. That's not to say that they
shouldn't be more transparent about their methodology. The truth of the matter
is that there's very little known about the people that actually die in these
strikes.

There is a fair amount of confusion on whether the deaths reported to be
terrorists are actually terrorists. Some say they are not especially since the
dead are never charged. There are also reports that the Pakistani military
straight-up calls civilians terrorists[0] but these are heavily contested by
the military[1] itself.

If you had a dataset which was heavily reported to be mislabelled, what would
you do?

Personally, I'd do the same but perhaps add a better explanation.

[0]: [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-
asia-48139648](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48139648)

[1]: [https://www.dawn.com/news/1486313](https://www.dawn.com/news/1486313)

------
rayiner
Misleading:

> JALALABAD, Afghanistan (Reuters) - A U.S. drone strike intended to hit an
> Islamic State (IS) hideout in Afghanistan killed at least 30 civilians
> resting after a day’s labor in the fields, officials said on Thursday.

Officials here seems to refer to unnamed tribal “officials.” The US and Afghan
defense ministry officials cited a few paragraphs before that did not say
anything about civilian casualties.

------
coldtea
Nothing to see here, there were not first world victims!

------
mothsonasloth
Alexander and his successors tried to hold Afghanistan but they failed after
three centuries.

The Mongols tried and failed.

The Arabs tried and failed.

The Mughals tried and failed.

The British tried and failed.

The Soviets tried and failed.

NATO tried and......

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasions_of_Afghanistan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasions_of_Afghanistan)

------
tibbydudeza
I think Americans we are about numb to these headlines as another mass
shooting compared that to the reaction of civil society in Germany when a SUV
"only" killed 4 people in Berlin.

------
tim333
It would be an interesting experiment for the US military to try stop killing
people. It would mean that if you say had a bunch of ISIS guys going to kill
civilians like they did in Iraq you'd have to find a non lethal way of
stopping them like drones with tasers or maybe diplomacy / bribery. It would
be an interesting tech challenge to make non lethal AI drones say that could
stop a traditional military.

Or maybe like the non lethal terminator in Terminator 2
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3XJxWwYx58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3XJxWwYx58)

------
mikelyons
How do we address the underlying selfishness that causes this?

------
nullc
Has the US government issued a public apology yet?

------
rikelmens
It appears to be 70, rather than 30.

------
newnewpdro
This is an excellent way to cause more terrorism, well done Team USA.

------
alkibiades
we need accountability for this. it can't just be like "oops"

------
pvaldes
... and nobody will go to jail for this

------
concordDance
Not that this isn't a tragedy (and/or mass murder depending on your
viewpoint), but I don't think hackernews is the right venue for this.

Hackernews should try and keep to tech and away from politics or its quality
will continue to degrade. For instance the comments here are mostly not saying
anything that hasn't already been said a thousand times before (is this just
outrage porn?).

~~~
paganel
> , but I don't think hackernews is the right venue for this

I would think the same, but then you’ve got things like project Maven which is
very closely related to things like US drone strikes and which definitely
deserves its place on HN. For example in this particular case, I’d be
interested to know how the initial identification has been made from aerial
views alone (I suppose they were based on aerial views) that those nut pickers
were the bad guys (when in fact they weren’t): was it a manual recognition
task? An automatic one? (i.e. image recognition).

Again, this pretty much looks like a false positive issue with great “chances”
of having been caused by an automatic process, so it definitely has its place
on HN.

~~~
concordDance
I'd agree with you if a noticable proportion of the comments so far had any
discussion of the technical aspects, but they don't. (Two out of the 40
comments could maybe be considered discussing the technical aspects and yours
goes into the most depth)

~~~
paganel
Yeah, I left my comment before reading the rest of the conversation in here,
you’re correct on that one

------
mikhailfranco
More news from the _War on Pesto_ ...

Only the government has the right to produce pesto. You cannot store pesto in
a bank safety deposit box (in fact, all safety deposit boxes will be banned).
You cannot enter or leave the country with more than 10,000 paper promises of
pesto. Anyone who buys, or sells, or consumes pesto will be tracked, and
suspicious patterns will be assigned to their _Social Pesto Score_.

The rule of _Civil Pesto Forfeiture_ : the police assume anyone in possession
of pesto is engaging in criminal activity. The pesto will be confiscated
without any charge, and the onus will be on the pesto owner to litigate to
prove that the pesto was obtained legally.

Food banks will charge a fee for dispensing or receiving pesto. Storage of
pesto at a food bank will require a negative interest fee.

Futures trading in precious metals for pesto does not need any store of
physical metals. Any trade in precious metals for pesto is legally regulated
by the Federal Government, but those laws will not actually be enforced.

Pesto lost in boating accidents will be assumed to be still in the owners
possession for tax purposes.

The government reserves the right to create as much pesto as necessary for the
culinary welfare of the nation. The government decrees that the supply of
pesto shall be 2% more than is normally consumed. The excess of pesto will
result in too much pesto being included for normal baking transactions, and
the value of pesto stored under the mattress will decline.

The production and use of crypto-pesto will be studied by the government in a
slightly perplexed manner. For the moment, they do not understand why anyone
would want to buy crypto-pesto that cannot be eaten with physical pasta.

All transactions on the _condimentchain_ will be monitored by the government.
Eventually they will ban crypto-pesto, because they still don't understand it,
but they suspect it threatens their monopoly on printing pesto promises.

------
zed88
American exceptionalism means they will get away from it easily as 'collateral
damage'.

------
kome
16000 civilians death so far in Afghanistan. The life of countless families
broken for nothing.

Yankee go home.

------
dkraft
TIL; 30 Afghans killed today were not pine nut farmers, but its somehow
insulting to the survivors.

