
How Tasteless Suburbs Become Beloved Urban Neighborhoods - brudgers
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/suburbs-immaculate-conception/408025/?single_page=true
======
kodis
There does seem to be considerable distaste for the suburbs on regular display
in large parts of the media. This title captures that perfectly: while the
housing stock remains the same, it magically transforms from tasteless when
suburban to beloved when the suburban area becomes urban.

~~~
Turing_Machine
_There does seem to be considerable distaste for the suburbs on regular
display in large parts of the media_

Yes, this is eternal.

Meanwhile, the people who actually _buy_ and _live in_ these houses continue
to want the things they've always wanted -- an affordable dwelling with space
for the children to play, along with room for a cookout and maybe a small
garden, in a safe neighborhood, with decent schools.

Conformance with the latest theories of architectural aesthetics isn't even
_on_ their lists, much less at the top of it.

~~~
eru
From the article:

One is that everything old was once new, and new things often provoke a
backlash. We ought to be humble in believing that our opinions represent some
timeless, objective truth, looking backwards or forwards. The same bungalows
that seem to us quaint and charming were tacky and soulless to many of the
people watching them be built; it seems more than possible that the new
apartment buildings we vilify today will be thought of sentimentally by future
generations who know them only as an important part of their city since they
were born.

------
gozo
The article seem to ignore a large part of the 20th century were in the post-
war period many European countries took the "just build more and higher"
approach extending cities with high-density suburbs. At the time forward
looking and idealistic planned communities, today neglected and infamous for
their social problems.

I'm a "city kid", I've always have lived and prefer to live in urban areas. I
think these suburbs often have a undeserved reputation, but that doesn't mean
that a simplistic argument of "thing we didn't like before turned out good, so
maybe doing thing people don't like now will be fine" has any bearing. Like
anything else you still have to look at the facts, weigh the arguments and if
you try your best hopefully come up with a winning compromise.

~~~
Brakenshire
You hear a lot about the bad examples of this, but little about the good
examples. I remember wandering through a working class high rise area in
Southern Spain, and being amazed by how friendly the atmosphere was, but you'd
never hear that area discussed in newspapers and magazines. The fact is living
in apartments is very common all across Continental Europe, and that area is
not well-represented by the Banlieues, or bad council estates in London.

FWIW, although I don't like Brutalist architecture, my attitude is that these
mistakes are almost entirely down to social policies that came with the
construction - or at least a mismatch between construction and policy.

In particular, it was a mistake putting large percentages of very
disadvantaged, vulnerable families together into brutalist, modernist
constructions that they found ugly, where they didn't want to live, and then
not putting in the money necessary to maintain them. I don't think the same
problems are likely to be repeated if you're replacing low density suburbs
filled with wealthy professionals, with high density flats filled with wealthy
professionals, who are specifically choosing to move there.

~~~
klibertp
> The fact is living in apartments is very common all across Continental
> Europe

I had to google what a "Brutalist architecture" is. Turns out it's somewhat
similar to how Central and Eastern Europe countries look like as a whole:
socialists governments used to love this style and were building tons of
these. It's now extremely common. Wikipedia says that 1/3 of Czechs live in
buildings like this:

[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Dlhe_die...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Dlhe_diely_panorama_zo_starych_gruntov.jpg)

Which is probably representative to the whole former Eastern Bloc. Here in
Poland these building were being built from 1950-ties to early 1990-ties, non-
stop, one after another, district after district, city (and, to a lesser
degree, town and village too!) after city.

I've lived all my life in one or another of those. They are old, very badly
constructed and ugly as hell, but they are inhabitable and they provide homes
for millions of people. It's somewhat gross to hear your neighbour peeing at
night, but it somewhat "works" \- you have a cheap shelter for really many
people close to city centres.

I don't really want to make any point, I just wanted to provide some context
to your statement about how common living in apartments is on this side of the
Berlin wall.

~~~
Symbiote
Brutalist is a particular style, I think what was really meant was
"prefabricated" — the buildings could be assembled on-site from parts (wall
sections etc) manufactured elsewhere.

A huge number of houses had been destroyed in WW2, so rebuilding them quickly
and cheaply was a priority. It wasn't just socialist governments, the UK built
loads of these too — though as prosperity increased, they became much less
common.

------
pkamb
As someone surrounded by the new construction in Seattle, these things are
hideous.

Predominant materials include cinder blocks, a random orange wall, corrugated
metal, yellow windows jutting out at a weird angle, and one wall made from
reclaimed artisanal barnwood. And that's all on one building.

Density, urban sprawl, NIMBYism, single family homes, etc. are issues for
someone else. I just wish we were seeing some good looking buildings.

------
liotier
All these debates about housing and transportation in the USA seem to never
even approach the idea that high density would solve the problem. Build
vertically, build tightly - that is where urban happiness lies... Not in an
individual house at the end of some suburb where no one can go anywhere
without a car !

~~~
Turing_Machine
" Build vertically, build tightly - that is where urban happiness lies... "

Most people do not agree. They have always moved to low density areas any time
it becomes feasible. This is a constant throughout just about all of human
history, and under just about every form of social organization. The wealthy
have _always_ had country estates, even in the days of ancient Rome. The
nomenklatura of the Soviet Union had their country dachas, etc.

You are getting the cause and effect backward. The car _made it possible_ for
people to spread out while remaining employed, and they took advantage of that
capability. It didn't _force_ them to do it.

It's called voting with your feet, dude.

~~~
fulafel
This has been shifting. Even though it might still be true for "most" people
(>50%) the portion of people preferring urban environments is increasing, and
fewer people are leaving cities after starting families.

[http://www.planetizen.com/node/77680/do-millennials-opt-
citi...](http://www.planetizen.com/node/77680/do-millennials-opt-cities-or-
suburbs-yes)

~~~
ghaff
Although that supposed trend seems to be exaggerated--at least in the US.
According to this piece [http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-millennials-
are-less...](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-millennials-are-less-
urban-than-you-think/) for example, the actual trend seems to be that a fairly
narrow slice of demographics (25-34 with college degrees) mildly prefer living
in a few specific dense urban environments like Brooklyn.

Overall there is something of an urbanization trend (especially in emerging
economies) but it's not as pronounced as it's often made out to be.

~~~
chucknelson
Everyone has their thing, and I definitely see the appeal to urban living when
you're young and have time to yourself. Why anyone would want to live in a
highrise or in a dense city when they have children, though, over having your
own yard or quiet, safe neighborhood to play in, doesn't make sense to me.

~~~
hiram112
Agreed. It's not that millennials are different in any way (preferring high
rises vs the McMansions of the Boomer generation), but instead the millennials
are putting off children until much later and just don't have many school aged
kids yet.

In 5-10 years, they'll be heading out of the cities just like their parents
and grandparents did.

~~~
ghaff
That's definitely one interpretation of at least some of the increasing
millennial urbanization (such as it is) that I've read. That it's more about
delaying moving to the suburbs/buying a house for a variety of reasons
including marrying and having children later and the economy (especially of a
few years back where of the currently available data is from).

------
refurb
This somewhat reminds me of San Francisco today. Most of the "hot
neighborhoods" now were immigrant neighborhoods even only 50 years ago.

People are paying $2M for homes that 50 years ago were in areas regarded as
low income. Tiny homes!!

It's amazing.

~~~
jseliger
_It 's amazing._

Not totally: returns to people living in dense cities have risen, per Edward
Glaeser's _The Triumph of the City_.

In addition, most cities have erected draconian land-use policies, which I
wrote about here: [http://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/24/do-millennials-have-a-
futu...](http://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/24/do-millennials-have-a-future-in-
seattle-do-millennials-have-a-future-in-any-superstar-cities). That means
demand is rising rapidly while supply is being strangled. Prices rise.

~~~
refurb
You don't think it's amazing that people will pay exorbitant amounts of money
for housing that a few decades ago was regarded a ghetto? I do.

~~~
anbu32
It wasn't the housing that was regarded as ghetto, but the people who used to
live there.

~~~
refurb
That was actually my point. The areas of SF that have gotten ridiculously
expensive are areas where the housing is actually sub-standard to what you'd
see in most of America.

The house that just sold for $2M wouldn't even be worth $200K in most US
cities. The house is just beat up and old.

I could see paying $2M for a gorgeous house that is either new or recently
upgraded. There are houses that are basically condemned going for >$1M!

~~~
danans
I think the mistake you're making is thinking that the value of houses in SF
is dominated by the value of their structure. Rather, it's dominated by the
value of the land they occupy. In the case of the $2M sub-standard SF house in
a desirable area you mentioned, if it burned down to the ground, the land
would still be worth well north of a million dollars.

Edit: wording

------
galfarragem
Price and value are two completely different things. If you are able to spot
(or predict) high value for a low price the world is in your hands.

By the other hand if you follow the sheep and buy scarce but low value stuff
for an high price you're in the rat race..

------
madaxe_again
I live in Bath - it's a world heritage city, it's considered very beautiful.

Thing is, when it was built, it was viewed as a sort of tasteless Vegas-cum-
Milton Keynes.

It's just a never-ending cycle, like most things.

~~~
throwaway049
I agree with the Vegas comparison, but what made you think of Milton Keynes?

~~~
Symbiote
Milton Keynes is the standard example in British usage of a boring city.

It's one of the few cities in the UK with a grid layout, which is enough to
convince many people that it must be boring.

------
ilaksh
[http://runvnc.github.io/tinyvillage](http://runvnc.github.io/tinyvillage)

~~~
voltagex_
Unfortunately I don't think I've seen a "tiny" design that's wheelchair
accessible.

~~~
ilaksh
Right, almost all of them involve ladders to lofts or something, but there is
no reason a tiny house can't have a normal bed near the ground if you need
that.

Anyway, by any chance did you read my page? I am pretty bummed out because I
have been trying to link to that tiny villages thing from everywhere I can
just so maybe a few people would read my idea, but the traffic analysis on the
github page keeps saying there is 0 traffic (except for 2 the other day and 1
of them was me).

~~~
voltagex_
There's a bit of a problem with the page so far:

[http://imgur.com/zhPbYuA](http://imgur.com/zhPbYuA) \- see the whitespace?

Maybe adding photos would help the traffic?

~~~
ilaksh
There is an image. Well, thanks for reading through the text if you had time,
really just trying to get the ideas out there.

I did not see any whitespace like that on my browsers (obviously). What
browser do you have? I will have to test with other browsers and find a way
around that.

