
Yammer CEO won't hire anyone from Yahoo who doesn't quit in next 60 days - bproper
http://venturebeat.com/2012/03/14/yammer-ceo-says-he-wont-hire-anyone-from-yahoo-who-doesnt-quit-in-next-60-days/
======
tobtoh
What a ridiculous statement from a CEO. I sympathise with the issue he's
trying to draw attention to, but his hysterical over the top utterance doesn't
reflect positively on him as a CEO. The last thing I want in my CEO is someone
who seeks to vilify those who had nothing to do with bad decisions, or judges
people in such black and white terms.

This reeks of publicity seeking - which reflects even more poorly on the CEO.
He's willing to vilify innocent workers to promote his company - so not only
does he exhibit poor judgement, he's also unethical.

~~~
marcovaldo
It's not only his statement that is ridiculous. Have you see his photo?
Admittedly, it is unlikely he had any control over the choice of snap that
went with this story, but who approved such a insincere photo on behalf of his
company?

------
moocow01
This tactic leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. Yes patent abuse needs to
be dealt with, yes Yahoo is now apart of the abuse and it is sad. But firing a
rocket at Yahoo employees by telling them they need uproot their lives or
otherwise they will be black listed from employment, with hopes that other
companies will follow along is disgusting and says more about Yammer than
Yahoo.

Look, yes Yahoo needs to take it in the chin as well as their decision makers
and true owners. Regular employees even with their stock options are for all
intensive purposes not owners. Employees all have unique individual situations
(H1B, mortgages, etc etc) and they will leave when the situation is right for
them. Weaponizing hiring is just as pitiful as weaponizing patents.

Find another way to do it.

~~~
fpgeek
They're both terrible, but I'd way "weaponizing hiring" is worse than
"weaponizing patents". At least with patents, you're not directly targeting
people (just the things they build and the companies they work for).

------
dlss
Looks like the other comments on here are anti-Yammer. I guess I'll write up
why this doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

1\. If you read the article, he was apparently talking about people with
options and control (Executives, Lawyers, Engineers), rather than janitors or
other people who might not have as much say in who they work for.

2\. The CEO states that his reasoning is that who you work for and support
indicates what kind of person you are ("the talent market in Silicon Valley is
so hot right now, the only folks staying at Yahoo are the ones who have
stopped caring"). Contrast this with the knee jerk reactions to the article
indicating that this is purely about punishing Yahoo. He just doesn't want
people who enable bad behavior. He wants Yammer employees who will stand up to
him if things look immoral.

3\. Yes the article / his announcement is sensational. But look at the general
idea: expecting engineers to refuse support to business doing immoral things
is taught in every university ethics class. Why not include ethics questions
in the interview?

~~~
notJim
I have a lot of problems with this story, and with your arguments in favor of
it.

    
    
      > the talent market in Silicon Valley is so hot right now,
      > the only folks staying at Yahoo are the ones who have 
      > stopped caring
    

I _guarantee_ you that there are people working at Yahoo! solving difficult
and interesting problems, which many of us would envy. Not only that, but
there are also going to be people working there now who value stability and
have a sense of loyalty to the company they work for. Not everyone is going to
jump ship for the new hotness every 3 years, and software engineering is not a
monoculture where we all share the same values. I think it's incredibly
problematic to broadly assert that anyone working at a given company is not
worthy of employing.

    
    
      > 3. Yes the article / his announcement is sensational. But look at the 
      > general idea: expecting engineers to refuse support to   business doing 
      > immoral things is taught in every university ethics class. Why not include
      > ethics questions in the interview?
    

So Yammer should only allow a single interpretation of ethics? What about
someone who doesn't believe this move is unethical? Yahoo is after all a
business, and according to some, the ethical way for a business to behave is
to maximize shareholder value [I do not agree with this, for the record, but
some people have definitely said it here and elsewhere.] Apparently Yahoo
believes this move will achieve that goal. [Remember, we're looking at ethics
here, not whether this is a good business move.]

Additionally, if one can make a good case for his/her stance on this issue,
does that mean that he/she will be considered as an exception to the no-hire
rule? If the CEO of Yammer wants employees who will correct him on ethics
issues, then certainly having strong critical thinking skills, and ability to
present a compelling argument for an issue should be far more important than
being able to "Patents are bad, mmkay?" And having a diversity of viewpoints
on these issues would surely also be a benefit, would it not?

~~~
dlss
Dude, go read the article. His first public statement was a tweet. 160
characters. His statements in the article make it sound like he talked to his
buddies before tweeting, had a nuanced position much like the one you are
describing (ie working at Yahoo is okay if you have a really really good
reason), and then tweeted something a bit sensational to get the idea some
news coverage.

Sure, he could have phrased the tweet better. But that's arguably not the
point of Twitter :p

On an unrelated note, I can't make heads or tails of your third paragraph.
First you argue that the "ethical way for a business to behave is to maximize
shareholder value", then you claim that "we are looking at ethics here, not
whether this is a good business move". Those two sentences come back to back
and appear self-contradictory -- maximizing shareholder value is done by good
business moves.

Did you mean that if the Yahoo board believed the action was ethical, then the
employees shouldn't care if they think it's ethical? (Or that Yammer's CEO
shouldn't care if those employees thought it was ethical?) (Or perhaps that
Yahoo employees who stay are better hires, since they won't get in the way of
business ethics?)

As you can see I am a bit befuddled by your paragraph three.

As to the question of (good arguers) <> (people with similar ethics) you bring
up at the end, I can not say. Personally, the most productive teams I have
been on have had relatively heterogeneous beliefs and ethics. Perhaps your
experience differs.

------
motoford
I thought his statement was over the top at first, but after I read the
article I say good for him for standing up for what he thinks is right.

We all know that this patent nonsense has got to stop. There is nobody
building any app anywhere that does not violate some patent. The only way we
are surviving is by being under the radar.

Let's not forgive Yahoo for this like we forgave Amazon. I'm especially pissed
at Yahoo for making me take the side of Facebook on something.

~~~
brown9-2
But there is a difference between punishing the company management that made
the decision and employees that had nothing to do with the decision.

~~~
potatolicious
If my employer suddenly got into the business of mulching orphans for
fertilizer, I'd consider it my personal responsibility to quit/move on as soon
as possible.

Yahoo employees should get no blame for decisions they didn't make, but they
do have to bear the responsibility for tacitly condoning this behavior.
Considering the current job market for software engineers in the Bay Area, the
whole "but I need to pay rent" argument doesn't even hold water.

~~~
larrys
"If my employer suddenly got into the business of mulching orphans for
fertilizer, I'd consider it my personal responsibility to quit/move on as soon
as possible."

You mean you wouldn't leave the same day?

What's the point of using an example like that?

~~~
dlss
Using humorous examples generally increases understanding. See
[http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20151750?uid=3739560&#...</a> (or your
local psych textbooks :p)

~~~
larrys
The comparison made and context is ridiculous. Why not make it "funnier" then?
"If my employer got into the business of raping children then...or "If my
employer walked into a high school and..." The point being made by the OP is
pretty obvious and doesn't require humor to increase understanding.

Humor might enhance learning of a harder to grasp concept. If done
appropriately.

------
foobar_bar
If I were a talented engineer, I would never apply to Yammer in the first
place. (Yahoo employee here), I think its time these companies stop thinking
so highly of themselves, the sad truth is everyone does patent litigation, fix
the system before making sweeping statements or atleast be fair and blame
everyone (apple, msft etc included) .There is a bias in the valley against
yahoo, some of which is deserved most of which is not. Yahoo has some
attractive challenges of scale that might be appealing to some folks and be
reason enough to work here. Most of the companies that try to act supercool
don't even have a real revenue model.

~~~
jongraehl
You're not an engineer, or you're not talented? :)

~~~
ericd
Based on his username, it seems likely that he's an engineer...

------
brown9-2
Does Yammer have similar policies against hiring people from Apple, Microsoft,
or Oracle?

This reeks of publicity-seeking.

~~~
mindstab
Also this is the first time I've heard of Yammer, while Yahoo is big and old.
Is this even a likely occurrence? Have they had or hired many or _any_ yahoo
ex employees in the past?

Headline read to me "Small no name startup says they won't hire employees from
huge company that's also never heard of them"

Seems all about the publicity.

~~~
techwraith
Yammer as a company has almost 300 employees, just raised an $85 million
round, is growing like crazy, and has (a lot of) real revenue. Hardly a "small
no name startup".

~~~
brown9-2
_and has (a lot of) real revenue_

Do they make those numbers public though? All I could find was this
[http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/26/yammer-doubling-revenue-
eve...](http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/26/yammer-doubling-revenue-every-
quarter-no-fear-of-salesforce/)

 _Revenue in 2009 was “seven figures.” I asked Sacks to narrow that down in
the video but he refused. He does say that Q1 2010 revenue exceeded all of
2009 revenue, and that revenue is now doubling every quarter. Yammer’s revenue
goal by end of year is to be at a $10 million annual run rate._

That's not nothing, but it seems unfair to laud a company for bringing in a
lot of real revenue if they don't disclose the actual number.

~~~
techwraith
What private company discloses their revenue numbers?

~~~
brown9-2
But then how can you claim they have "(a lot of) real revenue" without being
about to backup the assertion?

~~~
techwraith
I just can't publicly back it up ;)

------
tptacek
Random people aren't pawns for political initiatives, even when the politics
are good. And you can't walk it back to "well, there's already a taint for
working at Yahoo" without being the guy who just called everyone at Yahoo
incompetent. There were many ways this guy could have expressed a similar
sentiment without casting aspersions on hundreds or maybe even thousands of
totally reasonable, perfectly competent people. Instead, he picked the most
classless possible way to do it.

I blame this on the choice of Twitter as his venue. Everything he said after
it, to Venturebeat, is now subject to the distortions of the news cycle. I
know of at least one really smart person who works at and thinks highly of
Yammer; I have a hard time believing it's really run the way this article
makes it sound.

------
brooknam
This goes a bit far. I am sure there are fine folks at Yahoo who have achieved
seniority that they need to support their families. They may object to how the
company does business, but can't just walk away job. Is the hiring situation
in the Valley really so intense that anyone could find new work in 60 days?

~~~
encoderer
Any talented engineer, yes.

So either you're soulless and refuse to leave, or you're incompetent and
you're scared to leave. Either way, not hiring them seems fair to me.

~~~
bandy
Any talented engineer under the age of 30, yes. (Corollary: any engineer over
the age of 30 has no talent in the eyes of the Valley)

~~~
zackattack
This is stupid, untrue and counter productive.

I'll put my money where my mouth is. Know a talented engineer over the age of
30? Or 40? Or 50? I know several prestigious firms that would be eager to hire
her. Contact me and I'll share my referral bounty with you.

~~~
bandy
There have been a number of studies that come to this basic conclusion. Please
see Prof. Norm Matloff's pages (UC Davis)
[http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/pub/Immigration/ImmigAndComput...](http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/pub/Immigration/ImmigAndComputerIndustry/NYT.html),
[http://www.tbp.org/pages/publications/Bent/Features/Su09Brow...](http://www.tbp.org/pages/publications/Bent/Features/Su09Brown.pdf)
which tacitly touches on the subject, many articles in the San Jose Murky News
about engineers who can't find work (and who just so happen to be "older"), a
Congressional report finding that the one of the industry's associations that
goes about lamenting the engineer shortage misrepresented their data:
<http://www.gao.gov/corresp/he98159r.pdf> and let's finish with a tidbit from
the IEEE: <http://www.ieeeusa.org/careers/employment/age.html>

Oh darn it, you said "her", which would be an EEOC win for said corporation
(if they had been feeling legal pressure), although women in the profession
suffer age discrimination as well - being less numerous, you don't hear about
it nearly as much.

------
untog
While his stance is perhaps extreme, I think it forms part of a larger
rejection of Yahoo by the tech community. Sadly, that's going to hurt
everyone- Yahoo has some _phenomenal_ tech going on, but most of it generates
no revenue. So, we stop using it, Yahoo just fires the developers and
continues on it's "content portal" path. Sad.

~~~
cageyjames
If you can't overreact on the Internet, where can you overreact?

~~~
wavephorm
The dinner table was my family's place of choice.

------
3pt14159
I really agree with his sentiments, but sometimes even if someone wants to
quit in the next 60 days, they can't.

Example 1: Yahoo buys out your company, but it is more of a talent acquisition
rather than a real tech/market grab, and the terms of the deal are marked
accordingly.

Example 2: Someone takes a job at Yahoo as a sales exec, but differs all their
compensation in favor of stock options that expire at a very specific date.

But yeah, generally I like the direction this is going.

------
talmand
I'm assuming he's also unwilling to hire people from the top 10 or even maybe
top 20 internet-related companies, based on my totally unscientific study, in
the world? Because, in case he hasn't noticed, everybody is suing everybody
these days. I guess those millions of employees world-wide should just all
quit in the next 60 days and move to Silicon Valley since the job market is
apparently so hot there.

I guess Jonathan Ive should quit Apple and go work for Yammer to save his soul
and be considered a good person again.

I feel he's just a loudmouth that's lucky his company isn't big enough or
well-known enough for him to get slapped down by his investors and/or board
and have his twitter account take away. Regardless of how you feel about his
opinion or Yahoo's actions, this is a bad move and a potential PR disaster on
his part.

Plus, who would want to work for him now he's shown himself to be the type of
person to blame people for actions they had no part in?

And I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks every single employee of Yahoo is
worthless, soulless, evil, or whatever, is a total freaking moron.

------
spullara
I wonder if Yammer could issue some sort of legal covenant not to sue that
would be binding even if they sold the company or the patent changed hands
some other way? It looks like Yammer's CEO filed a patent as recently as last
August:

[http://www.google.com/patents?id=D-r_AQAAEBAJ&printsec=f...](http://www.google.com/patents?id=D-r_AQAAEBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=yammer&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6QthT63cOKGF2AW-3-ylCA&ved=0CDQQ6AEwATgK)

~~~
unabridged
If you want to bind yourself from suing people who violate the patent just
give the patent to public domain, it will have the same effect.

~~~
msbarnett
IANAL but people who Are A Lawyer seem to feel that there's no legally
meaningful way to place anything in the public domain, currently, at least in
the United States.

~~~
technomancy
The public domain is the wrong place for this, but you can certainly grant
irrevocable patent licenses. IIRC this is how the GPL3 works. (Not that you'd
have to license under the GPL to use the same strategy, it just shows it's
possible)

~~~
msbarnett
That makes sense

------
NameNickHN
If everybody would quit because of some (perceived) wrongdoing on part of
their employer, most businesses probably would have to close up for lack of
employees.

~~~
petercooper
Microsoft and Apple would be history, just for starters.

Y'know, publicly calling on people to quit their jobs based upon one's own
political opinions is _really_ unprofessional and if this guy really said
that, it says more about him than Yahoo.

------
pron
Oh, please! I like Yammer (especially Coda Hale's technical abilities), but
this is ridiculous. I'm against software patents as much as the next hacker,
but treating it like a mortal sin is preposterous. Corporations do far worse
things to people and to society than sue other corporations for IP
infringement. Drawing the line here, of all places, just shows Yammer's CEO's
ethical cluelessness. But I guess he was just pissed and couldn't control
himself. It happens.

~~~
azakai
> Corporations do far worse things to people and to society than sue other
> corporations for IP infringement.

This isn't just unethical in a general sense. If it were, then yes,
corporations do much worse.

The bigger issue is that Yahoo's move here threatens the entire software
industry and specifically the internet. Yes, we already have massive patent
battles in the mobile space. But they are fought over the selling of
smartphones and tablets - hardware. Many of the relevant patents are software
ones, so the distinction is not absolute, but at least they still happen in a
clearly hardware-orientated space. The players all sell hardware and are
already familiar with the patent game from hardware patents. It's bad there,
don't get me wrong, but it is - for now - a controlled bad.

Whereas Yahoo's move here does not involve hardware. It doesn't even involve
shipping any product at all or even selling one. It's a lawsuit over a website
that is free for people to use - one of the most important forms of online
business.

Imagine if patent warfare broke out on in the web space. It would be a
massacre for big companies and startups alike. Everyone violates patents all
the time, its impossible to avoid doing so. If such lawsuits are brought, they
would devastate silicon valley. Yahoo's lawsuit here looks, worryingly, like
it might be the first attack in such a war.

That's why people are so shocked and react so strongly - and rightly so.
Pressuring companies that use software patents, and pressuring their employees
to try to effect change internally or consider jumping ship, is something that
makes sense for the software industry to do. To do otherwise would be
suicidal. Only Intellectual Ventures and other patent holders win if patent
warfare becomes commonplace on the internet.

~~~
pron
If I remember correctly, Amazon has sued over web-only supposed patent
infringement. It's just that Amazon is so big and powerful, while Yahoo has
fallen from grace. I hate it when companies feign moral outrage over what is
simply corporate warfare. There are very few companies that, when standing
over a cliff like Yahoo is, would choose the right thing over using whatever
is in their arsenal to survive. So, yeah, changing the rules of the game is a
necessity, but it is Yammer's CEO who's crossing the line by implying Yahoo
employees are somehow tainted, like ex-Nazis or something.

One company does stand to (possibly) gain from all this - Google.

~~~
azakai
Amazon did get a lot of flak back then, there was a boycott. And Amazon,
thankfully, stopped its lawsuits. Meanwhile we have seen an entire industry -
mobile - become a patent battleground, so people are more concerned now then
then.

I do see the point that threatening employees to leave or be blacklisted is...
disturbing. I think we should put pressure on Yahoo and its employees to
change Yahoo's ways, but not like that.

Edit: Google doesn't stand to gain from this. Well sure, in the short term
Facebook's loss is Google's gain. But if patent lawsuits become a norm in the
internet industry, Google in fact has perhaps the most to lose.

------
Zimahl
While I hadn't ever heard of Yammer, just one look at the home page makes it
seem as though it's a Facebook rip-off (no other way to really say it) just
for use in a corporate setting.

Seems as though he's just a little worried that if Facebook bows to the
patents his company will be next on Yahoo's hit list.

~~~
niekmaas
And worse, the whole layout is a Facebook ripoff. My girlfriend uses Yammer
for work and when I took a closer look at it today it seems that most of the
IU elements are 1 to 1 copies of Facebook. Pretty sad to be honest.

------
larrys
Wow. Imagine the immaturity and entitlement going on here.

Like a girl/guy, that you don't even know if you want to date, stating
emphatically that they won't date you unless you stop immediately from any
behavior that they find objectionable. How would that go over?

Who would want to work for (or date) someone who makes a demand like that,
regardless of whether you agree with the issue or not?

------
robomartin
What a jerk and a hypocrite.

Patents are, like it or not, one of the weapons of war, if you will, in
business. Have been for a long, long time. And, while I too hate the "we
invented the button and we have a patent" crowd I also recognize that they
exist for a reason.

Denying someone employment because the company they work for seeks to enforce
their patents --legitimate or not-- is nothing less than being a dick.

If you want to do something about frivolous patents get involved politically,
seek to understand the issues and push to make sensible changes. So, how about
it Mr. David Sacks instead of being a total dick by seeking to cause damage to
Yahoo employees, would you use your money and influence to help change patent
laws?

I have yet to see any of the loud-mouths spouting off about patents offer to
do something like put together a fund to be used in pursuing changes to the
laws. An, of course, none of them will write a check for a few million to fund
it. If I was in a position to get something like this started I would. Maybe
someone can reach vocal anti-patent guys like Mark Cuban and ask him to throw
the first ten million into the pot to get this going?

With the money available in the top layer of tech companies it should be
possible to put together a fund with billions of dollars. This fund could
either be available to fight patent trolls or act as a PAC (or both).

Imagine, if you will, what would go through patent troll's minds if they tried
to enforce bullshit patents and this group existed.

Let's call it the AFSPL (Americans For Sensible Patent Laws). Furthermore,
imagine that this group had massive amounts of money and a whole floor full of
lawyers and engineers to throw at the problem. The ACLU of the patent world,
if you will.

If someone comes after you with a bullshit patent you could bring it up with
the AFSPL for review. And, if they see it your way they defend you. Trolls
would disappear almost instantly. Bullshit patents would be invalidated. The
skies would turn blue and the birds would sing.

Maybe they could even mount a massive lawsuit against the patent office
itself.

Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe that there's a place for valid an solid
patents, even software patents. Having said that, I've read through so many
patents that have caused me to yell and scream at the top of my lungs "this is
bullshit!" that it is easy to loose hope.

Nah, going after Yahoo employees is crap. Get a grip on reality and put your
time, effort and passion behind a real solution.

~~~
motoford
I guess jerk is subjective enough that you can offer that as your opinion.

But how is he a hypocrite?

~~~
robomartin
That could be a little off-base. It seems that this anti-Yahoo-employee rant
was triggered in part because he recently got tangled in a patent lawsuit
(affecting him directly). Where was he before he got sued? Remaining silent as
it happens to others only to act when it happens to you is a form of
hypocrisy.

But, I could be wrong.

Frankly, his attack on perfectly innocent folk really ticked me off.

------
jrockway
What's "Yammer" and what hiring process is finding them so many qualified
potential employees that they can afford to artificially limit the supply?

Also: when you want employees rather than startup founders, you have to expect
that they are in it for security rather than ideals. Very few employee-types
who are otherwise happy with their company are going to quit over one lawsuit.
It's simply not worth not being able to feed your kids.

~~~
dwynings
On the other hand, I'd be more likely to hire someone who quit Yahoo because
of the patent issue.

------
sakopov
I only wonder what everyone's opinion on someone who goes to work from 9-5 to
do the job they love, then come back home to live the life they love, which
doesn't involve reading about the company they work for or reading tech news
or doing anything to do with their professional life. I enjoy fishing in my
spare time and fixing my rusty, dingy boat, not blogging, working on project
or running a startup. I know you probably think i'm terrible engineer and
wouldn't want to hire me for your startup, and that's your choice. I love
engineering and building stuff but I absolutely refuse to be caught up in my
professional life 24/7. I may have a wife and kids. An older parent to take
care of. It doesn't matter. What matters is i try to live a life and i only
got 1 shot at it. I can imagine there are some folks at Yahoo! who have the
same stance on their job/life.

------
bigbang
"the talent market in Silicon Valley is so hot right now, the only folks
staying at Yahoo are the ones who have stopped caring"

Or people who can't leave because of immigration reasons(such as a pending
green card).

------
moreorless
If he doesn't retract his statement within the next 60 minutes, I will never
work at Yammer. What a buffoon.

------
andrewparker
Forget about Yahoo's dumb patent trolling decision for a second...

If you're still working at Yahoo today that sends a clear message to me about
how you value innovation, product quality, thought leadership, and other
important assets. As an employee you're making an explicit choice that the
company you work for merits spending your most valuable asset: your time.

I have been wary of anyone with Yahoo on their resume for the past two years,
and will be more wary going forward. This patent troll mess is just another
data point in that calculus.

------
orbitingpluto
I have a little thought experiment:

Yahoo is acting distastefully. David Sacks suggests that we threaten and
punish those who work there. This includes those who can have no real
influence on company strategy.

David Sacks is also acting distastefully.

Therefore if we were to follow David Sack's advice we should now threaten
David's gardener and pool-boy.

I'm sure the cafeteria staff, interns, co-op hires, newly hired, green cards
and so forth will appreciate being ostracised like this.

------
Robin_Message
I'm not sure whether to mention this, but here goes. I refused to help a
company I worked for create a patent, despite the large cash incentive to do
so. I didn't want to have my name on a patent for two reason: firstly, I
thought companies, especially startups, would increasingly see even engineers
who collaborate with the patent system in a negative light. Yammer has proved
me right.

Secondly, I didn't want to be personally responsible for making the patent
situation worse. Worse? Yes, because despite the assertion made that obviously
a good company like ours would only use patents defensively, this was not
backed up with any public statement to that effect, nor would even that be
binding in the future when management changed or the patent portfolio was
sold. Every defensive patent can be used offensively.

The suggestion of a defensive silicon valley patent pool (perhaps owned by
some kind of internet foundation), more rights for inventors to control how
their patents are used, and pressuring engineers not to collaborate in the
creation of bad patents would be a good way out of the current madness without
requiring a total overhaul.

------
soumyadeb
This is really funny. He is asking people to leave without promising them a
job. What's the downside of leaving - Risking visa, income etc. What's the
downside of not leaving - Cannot be hired at Yammer at some future point :)
Who cares in this hot job market.

Publicity stunts like this only fit Hollywood. Seems like we have a new
culture in Silicon Valley.

------
bigbang
This blog post says much about Yammer CEO, than about Yahoo! employees

------
eta_carinae
If you only decide to stop hiring Yahoo engineers now, you're a bit too late
to the game. Anyone who's still at Yahoo1 today is probably someone who hasn't
been able to find a job elsewhere. I have interviewed a lot of Yahoo!
engineers these past years and it's been an unmitigated (as in 100% rejection)
disaster.

~~~
gms
This comment is correct, but I would make an exception for the fine folk in
Yahoo Research.

~~~
dm8
Seriously? How can you guys paint whole company with the same brush based on
few candidates you interviewed?

YUI team has some cool stuff under their belt. And how about Doug Crockford?

------
jacquesm
This guy is an idiot. People at Yahoo that do not determine policy may not be
at liberty to simply quit their positions. They'll have dependents, mortgages
and other long running commitments.

To make blanket statements like this - especially as a CEO - is dumb, plain
and simple. I have never used a Yahoo product and I disagree with a lot of
things they've done in the past couple of years. But I'd never hold working at
some other company during whatever period in their life-cycle against a former
employee.

Yes, Yahoo! made a dick move. But that does not mean that everybody working at
Yahoo! should be penalized like this.

------
anigbrowl
Is he promising a job to anyone who does leave? It appears not. Although I
understand his anti-patent sensibilities, a stick without a carrot makes this
announcement seem like little more than publicity-seeking.

------
jroseattle
The lawsuit itself was a douche move. Now, this guy piles on with more douche-
ness.

Incredibly classless move on this guy's part. As if anyone that he would be
interested in hiring had _anything_ to do with the lawsuit filing. And trying
to apply leverage by calling them out as some sort of accomplice to the suit
if they don't leave in 60 days? Talk about not being able to stand in someone
else's shoes.

I can think of about a dozen different ways I could have used this as a
recruiting opportunity where I didn't sound like a complete dick. This guy
obviously doesn't have that capability.

------
rbanffy
I sincerely don't think Yammer would be able to absorb any significant part of
Yahoo's workforce. That said, imagining Yahoos all over took his advice, the
company would become a hollow shell _with_ patents.

Does he even realize what kind of damage an NPE the size of Yahoo could make?
I assume he knows his threats have no effect on the lawyers Yahoo pays to
pursue such actions.

note: instead of a downvote, I'd appreciate constructive feedback or a
discussion. You may like Yammer a lot, or even work for them, but I'm more
interested on what did you find worthy of a downvote in my post.

------
MikeOnFire
Not a great policy, but the article goes on to do a good job demonstrating how
harmful the software patents have become.

------
laacz
Unrelated question. Is it normal to notify your employer of leaving 60+ days
in advance, or is it just USA feature? In Europe there is a common practice
(and legally binding, if not agreed otherwise upon notifying your employer) of
30 days notice. I'm curios (sorry, if this qualifies as an offoptic).

------
veguss
Isn't this illegal? Discrimination laws.

~~~
utopkara
No, it isn't legal. He is just being a troll for Yahoo decreasing the value of
his prized facebook shares.

~~~
marshray
Honest question: Which law or code does it violate?

It's not like he's refusing to hire people of color or Vietnam veterans or
even transsexuals. (Edit: I realize it might sound strange, but there's a
legal basis behind that ordering it's not just my preferences :-)

He's refusing to hire certain resume' histories arguing that it is
professionally relevant.

~~~
utopkara
First of all this is non-merit discrimination; which should bar yammer from
doing business with government, and contractors. Check out their fron-page,
the top of their customer list is Pitney-Bowes.

Second, he is creating a hostile work environment for his own employees who
may feel differently about the case, or who have come from companies that
collapsed as he is expecting Yahoo would.

~~~
marshray
I think he's saying that it is an issue of merit, in the sense that he
considers it a negative indication of the judgment of an applicant.

Hostile work environment? Meh. Sure maybe somebody could bring a suit, maybe
they could even have a chance at winning if he was beating people on the head
with it every day. But I doubt many startup execs would worry about it to the
point they would let it censor their behavior.

------
basugasubaku
I just hope people understand Yahoo Japan is not Yahoo. They are basically
separate companies.

------
jebblue
I hope Yammer fails in business for displaying this type of attitude and from
the CEO no less.

------
roopeshv
I propose, he give employment to everyone who leaves yahoo in next 60 days,
then we can talk

------
wangjiahua
It's not like Yahoo employees voted to sue fb, even it was, what about those
who voted "no"?

------
spaznode
Who really cares what yammer does or says? I wasn't all that impressed with
the app when using it. Are they a company anyone actually actively seeks out
for employment as anything other than "I can't find anything I like, might as
well"?... Fail

------
chollida1
my first reaction to this was similar to most people here, that this guy is
just looking for publicity and why punish the good engineers at yahoo for
this.

However, I do remember the SCO fiasco <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO-
Linux_controversies> . The feeling I got from the tech community was that SCO
engineers were certainly black listed from alot of jobs at other tech
companies.

I guess it's worth exploring what makes Yahoo and SCO different.

~~~
jjacobson
I sat in on an interview for a at that time current SCO Engineer. He told us
about his current projects like getting Firefox running on their Unix
platform. None of us wanted to work with him even though he had the skills we
were looking for.

------
efsavage
This seems a bit of a broad swath for my taste, as Yahoo is a big place, but
when screening resumes, someone listing their software patents is an automatic
strike 1 and 2 in my book.

~~~
robryan
I think it is a bit unfair as a policy, unless then used those patents
themselves. While not ideal, right now it would be silly not to attempt to
register defensive patents given the resources to do so.

~~~
efsavage
I don't search to see if you've ever filed for one, but putting it on your
resume to me says that you want to work for a company that promotes them. The
day may come when I have to file defensive patents of my own, but I'll never
brag about it.

And as jongraehl said, there's still one strike left :)

------
barrynolan
Alberts point re pooling startup patents is interesting, and may have
relevance for tech on tech litigation. But it doesn't defend against the shell
troll entities.

------
rabble
Well, i think actually, perhaps a call for developers to refuse to participate
in software patents, refuse to put your name on it, might be more effective.

------
tsieling
What a pig. Jump when I say or I might not hire you.

------
kumarm
I won't hire any one who ever worked at Yammer :)

------
kwamenum86
"Engineer won't ever work for Yammer"

------
pbreit
Pretty much everyone is missing that the patent situation isn't the only
reason an employer might frown on Yahoo employees. The company has been moving
sideways (at best) for quite some time and better employees tend to leave in
those circumstances. The patent move was just the final straw.

------
rit
Isn't this at least partly discriminatory? It seems likely if not Federal,
there may be some kind of California law which may cover this.

It seems to me that making a public statement about this could burn them in
the future.

------
danielharan
Lots of comments about how this is unfair.

Sure. But could it work?

------
jdavid
I guess we know who has Facebook shares.

Maybe he should focus on hiring the best engineers for his own business rather
than trying to optimize his value in something else.

------
adnam
Cheap stunt

------
kyle_martin1
And I care why?

------
shingen
While it's a perfectly fine choice to ostracize Yahoo for their actions,
Yammer's CEO is going to end up looking like little more than a hypocrite at
the least, and maybe a dipshit, if he doesn't apply the same rules to all
companies equally based on behavior.

The odds the CEO will apply the same rule to all other companies acting with
patent belligerence? Approximately zero. They'd need a substantial piece of
tracking software just to attempt it, and then it'd be down to subjective whim
as to which company employees deserves to be 'punished'.

Lame.

Here's what it's equivalent to intellectually (using an extreme example to
frame it): Joseph Stalin was evil, therefore everyone in the USSR was evil;
never allow anyone from the USSR to immigrate.

Sometimes it's not so simple as to pack up and leave your job when, say, you
have children and a family to look out for or any number of a zillion other
considerations in life (which is already hard enough in general). Really makes
me think the CEO is a serious jerkwad.

~~~
guimarin
It can be done. Look at the US. Ever had to fill out, 'Not a member of the
Nazi Party between 1933-1945? The US Citizenship test in no way makes the US
look like a 'serious jerkwad.'

~~~
harlanlewis
Nice, pretty solid bit of Godwin's Law trolling. I'm not interested in
debating this to the level of detail that will spare me being called a nazi by
someone on the internet, so suffice it to say that _any_ blacklist based on
generalized attributes and affiliations will unfairly target innocents.

Companies have lots of tactics to shorten applicant stacks ("wrote a
personalized cover letter", "minimum 12yrs experience HTML5", "name printed in
blue"). Power to Yammer if they want to add "dates employed at yahoo" to the
list - talented folks will have little trouble finding work.

~~~
pessimizer
It's _really really_ hard to avoid Godwin when discussing the responsibility
of the rank and file of an organization for the actions of the whole. It's the
model case.

~~~
meepmorp
> It's really really hard to avoid Godwin when discussing the responsibility
> of the rank and file of an organization for the actions of the whole.

This is a deeply idiotic statement. In fact, it's quite easy to talk about how
much responsibility Yahoo employees have for the intellectual property
lawsuits started by management, and yet not make use of comparisons to the
Nazis.

When the roads into Sunnyvale have signs saying "Arbeit macht frei" over them,
then you can feel free to make such comparisons. Till then, you're a complete
jackass.

~~~
pessimizer
No, it's not. It's a debate commonly held when people claim to be innocent of
the actions of an institution that they were a part of, and the source of
modern debates about the ethics that apply are sourced in the writings of
Arendt about the subject. You're not the only person in the room that realizes
that Yahoo aren't the Nazis, Facebook aren't the victims of WWII, and Yammer
certainly isn't Nurnburg, so cut the name calling and histrionics.

Just because naked mole rats aren't ants doesn't mean you can't refer to ants
when talking about them, silly.

------
shareme
Here is an equally non-meaning statement, I will never hire the Yammer CEO to
ever walk my dog.

Pure bait link BS..

------
prince_hakeem
Why does Yammer make me think of this scene from Coming to America?

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29wNCH4RBrk>

------
mthreat
If Jeff Dean went to work at Yahoo for 61 days and applied at Yammer, he'd get
the job.

