
Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S - howard941
https://news.gallup.com/poll/245789/record-numbers-americans-leave.aspx
======
skh
Ultimately this indicates that people aren’t satisfied with the returns on
taxation. I’m all for supporting a government that supports the people. From
my perspective we don’t have this and haven’t had it for some time. Other
developed nations have better infrastructure, better social support system,
near free higher education, free at point of contact healthcare systems. What
we get in the U.S. is the most advanced warfare system ever.

EDIT: I’m not complaining about the level of military spending or healthcare
spending. I’m pointing out that from my perspective our return on taxation is
a great military and a crappy healthcare system. Hence I’m not happy about the
returns on taxation.

~~~
rootusrootus
I would say it is dissatisfaction with the government's contract with the
citizenry, combined with recent evidence suggesting that a good chunk, say
half, of the population has no interest in progressing. So people who can
leave for somewhere that more closely aligns with their values are doing just
that.

I have family here and I love the United States, I'm staying, and I hope we
can make some more progress, but I totally understand why some people don't
want to wait that long.

~~~
umvi
> combined with recent evidence suggesting that a good chunk, say half, of the
> population has no interest in progressing

Different people have different definitions of "progress". Your definition of
progress might not align with mine. That doesn't mean I am not interested in
progress, just that I believe we should be progressing in a different
(possibly even diametrical) direction than you believe we should be
progressing.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
That's fine to say, but it ignores the problem of minority rule. If we all
take a big vote, and most people want Progress(A), you don't have the
_ethical_ right to jump up and down or put a gun to the rest of our heads
insisting that we instead do Progress(B).

Maybe Progress(B) is a lovely thing for you. The rest of us, however, don't
like it very much, and didn't vote for it.

~~~
jedmeyers
If Progress(A) means taking stuff from a minority group, then sorry you don’t
have the right for that either, even if your plan is to equally distribute it
for the “good of everyone”. For some people who went through the hell of
communism it is the opposite of progress.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
>If Progress(A) means taking stuff from a minority group, then sorry you don’t
have the right for that either,

Hold on, let me check something...

 _" The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from
whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and
without regard to any census or enumeration."_

I rather think we do have that right. Human rights for minorities are indeed a
thing, but they aren't a thing that gives you (or anyone else) a fully general
right to rule _over_ the majority, nor a fully general right to treat the
government as illegitimate when it uses its constitutionally enumerated powers
to go against your ideas.

~~~
jedmeyers
> it uses its constitutionally enumerated powers to go against your ideas.

So let me clarify your position a bit: you do support immigration law
enforcement, correct?

Also where did you get the idea that the majority of people in the US gets to
decide the policy?

~~~
eli_gottlieb
>So let me clarify your position a bit: you do support immigration law
enforcement, correct?

Yes, of course. If enforcing the law as written involves doing Bad Things, the
law should be changed, but if we aren't _democratically_ deciding to change
it, then it's on us what it involves.

Mind, there's been _plenty_ of support for the DREAM Act for quite a while
now, so...

>Also where did you get the idea that the majority of people in the US gets to
decide the policy?

The basic ethical grounds for representative democracy, without which the US
government has no legitimacy, no matter how many pieces of paper anyone waves
around.

~~~
jedmeyers
Majority rule is not “the basic ethical grounds for representative democracy”.
US was set up as a constitutional republic specifically to limit the simple
majority mob rule.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
>Majority rule is not “the basic ethical grounds for representative
democracy”.

Yes, it very much is.

>US was set up as a constitutional republic specifically to limit the simple
majority mob rule.

The US was set up to preserve the power of the rural landowner class. It
wasn't intended to be a representative democracy initially, and has only moved
imperfectly towards representative democracy over time, with great struggle.

Rule by a minority elite claiming the mantle of national authenticity as its
exclusive possession is, ethically speaking, far less legitimate than that of
plain, old-fashioned majorities.

------
tristor
I find it interesting how many comments here and on other sites that linked
the same article talk about this being tied to concerns around how their tax
dollars are spent. It seems many people are not aware that the US is one of
only two countries which taxes it's citizens no matter where they reside.
Leaving the US is not enough if you wish to avoid taxation, you must also
acquire citizenship in another country, and then renounce your US citizenship.
Both of those things are much more difficult than they appear at first glance,
and renouncing US citizenship has extremely broad and far-reaching
consequences.

Someone who has renounced their US citizenship is forever barred from ever
getting citizenship, and their children are typically also barred from getting
citizenship. In addition, they will pretty much always be denied a visa for
entry, and they are ineligible for visa at arrival, and may have difficulty to
get even pre-applied visas for visiting such as B-1/B-2.

If you decide to emigrate elsewhere and renounce your US citizenship to avoid
paying taxes, you basically give up on ever coming back to the US ever, and
you'll be watched like a hawk by every single US ally. Denouncing your
citizenship is a pretty radical move and is something that hallmarks you as
the type of person who might go join ISIS or something.

This is one reason why it doesn't matter how many people say they want to
leave the US, almost none of them actually do it permanently. No matter what,
you'll be paying taxes to build bombers, so you might as well enjoy the much
higher quality of life on offer in the US while doing so. As someone who has
traveled around the world extensively, staying in each place for very extended
(months/years) periods of time, I can honestly say that despite all of its
flaws, the US is still probably the best place one could possibly live
inclusive of all factors. There is a reason we're a net importer of people
rather than a net exporter.

~~~
arbol
How can the US tax foreign income? Presumably they would have no idea about
your earnings abroad.

~~~
scottlocklin
Well, you've never lived abroad... Google FACTA some time when you're feeling
cheerful for a real downer. The IRS and Treasury basically treating the world
wide banking system as their dominion.

Expats usually don't renounce because of the worldwide taxation rules (though
they don't help); they renounce because of FACTA.

~~~
amaccuish
> Well, you've never lived abroad

Maybe he's not American?

------
tjr225
I like America. I find its people, at least offline, to be warm and generous.
I love the outdoors and the massive breadth of natural beauty in this country.

However, it is very painful to me that part of my income gets funneled into
the pockets of mass murderers. If I were to choose to leave this country it
would have to be to some place that at the very least, spends less of my
income on endless war. It's a real shame there is basically no peace movement
anymore.

~~~
omegaworks
>It's a real shame there is basically no peace movement anymore.

It exists, but the form it takes has been highly stigmatized to the point of
presently being litigated out of existence by the current Senate[1].

Call them 202-224-3121 and express your displeasure at the outlawing of
peaceful resistance to occupation.

1\. [https://theintercept.com/2019/01/05/u-s-senates-first-
bill-i...](https://theintercept.com/2019/01/05/u-s-senates-first-bill-in-
midst-of-shutdown-is-a-bipartisan-defense-of-the-israeli-government-from-
boycotts/)

~~~
tjr225
You are the second person to link me to an article about this bill today -
absolute insanity.

------
hombre_fatal
"I would love to travel" and "I would love to live somewhere else" are some of
the most worthless declarations I've ever heard.

You'll find that people don't even want to invoke the tiniest bit of effort to
realize either of those ambitions. Instead people prefer the self-limiting
beliefs of why they cannot, like it somehow being expensive or that everything
will collapse in their absence as if their life is a house of cards.

Anyone who has lived abroad in a cheap country and dealt with a barrage of
"omg I wish I could do what you do" knows what I'm talking about. At first you
think people mean it, but the instant you challenge them on it, you realize
they prefer the Skinner box of desiring rather than having.

------
whatshisface
I see that people are assuming that the ones who want to leave do so because
they feel the government is insufficiently liberal. The truth is, I have met
some people who wish they could leave to go somewhere more conservative. I
think that everyone would want to leave the US if somewhere out there was a
utopia that exactly implemented their political and social views. The main
thing that tamps down that desire is the fact that such places rarely exist.

~~~
bborud
Anecdotal evidence isn't really all that interesting.

~~~
abootstrapper
Gotta source on that? /s

~~~
bborud
STEM education.

------
linsistine
Unrelated to the reason that was listed in the article, but I've spoken to
numerous people over the last couple of years who've expressed they would like
to leave due to the US's culture.

Although this is a beautiful, diverse, and free country (compared to the rest
of the world), everything in the US revolves around work and money.

------
surfmike
There is no way people answer truthfully on these surveys, since the numbers
don't come anywhere close to actual emigration; it seems more of a vote of
dissent against the government.

~~~
CydeWeys
It's a simple gap between wishes/hopes and actions. Way more people make new
year's resolutions to lose weight than actually follow through on that, too,
and eating less is easier than spending your whole life.

------
ausbah
% of people who will actually leave the US?

I'd wager near 0.

~~~
jknightco
We left. Three years ago, for Spain. We're not planning on returning, barring
some sort of international catastrophe.

~~~
Djvacto
Would you mind sharing some of your experience (to whatever level you're
comfortable with)?

I actually have spanish citizenship as well as my US one, and have considered
moving there (temporarily or permanently) to be closer to family a couple of
times.

------
AnimalMuppet
I don't want to leave the US. But I was in England on a business trip last
fall, and I was talking to some people. They mentioned thinking about leave
England (I think because of Brexit fallout). For the first time, I could not
recommend that they come to the US.

~~~
gammateam
A lot of people in developed nations dont find the US an attractive
destination, based on things that wouldnt define their user experience at all
(human rights, south side chicago violence)

The most closest analogy would be how Americans dont find China to be an
attractive destination, for reasons they would never experience (human rights,
poverty) or would most likely benefit from (credit scores)

------
SketchySeaBeast
1.5x the population of Canada wants to move to Canada.

~~~
m0zg
They better be able to prove their skills, since Canada only accepts skilled
immigrants.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
Or people seeking asylum. But yes, the Venn diagram of people who answered
"yes" in this poll and those who would qualify for asylum is probably small.

~~~
m0zg
Bah, asylym. I bet a significant fraction of those surveyed think they can
just walk over the border and live there.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
I'm sorry, but what does that add, other than by going "bah, I'll make up
things about people I don't care for"?

~~~
m0zg
That people nearly universally think that the grass is greener on the other
side of the fence, whereas it's really not. And that most people in the US
neither qualify for asylum nor would they pass the skilled immigrant criteria.

Speaking from experience here: I almost moved there before I immigrated to the
US. The US process was easier believe it or not, and I'm glad I decided to
move here and not elsewhere.

------
Bhilai
This is not about the current leadership in U.S but if I had to boil it down
to one thing for me that really bothers me is the healthcare situation in this
country. I've never seen healthcare system that is so difficult to navigate
and so ridiculously expensive.

------
duxup
The hassle of moving to another country is not small. I gotta think there is a
desire for personal change / lifestyle / even just seeing what it is like
elsewhere, as much as just recent political stuff.

It's easy to tack on reasons that are convenient to say, you might even think
that is the reason... but the trigger might be something else.

------
walrus01
[https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-
citizenship/se...](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-
citizenship/services/immigrate-canada.html)

~~~
jedmeyers
Wait. You don’t just walk across the border, you have to file an application
and have it approved to live in Canada? Is this how a progressive nation
should behave?

~~~
rootusrootus
IIRC it's pretty common to walk across the border and then present yourself to
immigration and ask for asylum. Assuming that is your only probable
immigration method, since otherwise it's reputedly quite difficult to gain
approval.

Also, Canada handles the whole process a bit more humanely than the United
States does.

~~~
bruceb
are hundreds/thousands of people trying to cross in to Canada everyday? Easy
when its only a few people, harder when its not.

~~~
cazum
It's not a matter of "easy" or "hard", it's a matter of how much money you're
willing to spend on processing asylum claims. Hiring more immigration lawyers,
building more offices, hiring more officers for patrolling borders and
ensuring seekers get across safely, and not wandering around kicking over
water reservoirs[1].

Considering the US is spending $210 million[2] to lob gas canisters at a
migrant caravan instead of processing their claims, I don't think it's a
matter of not having enough cash.

also, Canada saw 25,000 asylum claims last year[3]

[1] [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-
border-...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-border-
patrol-mexico-water-bottles-video-migrants-kick-over-video-illegals-mexicans-
hispanics-a8165591.html)

[2] [https://globalnews.ca/news/4684164/trump-border-troops-
cost-...](https://globalnews.ca/news/4684164/trump-border-troops-cost-migrant-
caravan/)

[3] [https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-
citizenship/se...](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-
citizenship/services/refugees/asylum-claims.html)

------
ggregoire
Probably hard to find, but I’m curious to know what are the numbers about
foreigners wanting to live in the US compared to the numbers from 10 or 20
years ago.

~~~
muzz
Would be really hard to ascertain those numbers.

There might be some data that might indicate some of that kind of intent. Like
number of apprehensions of illegals at the border. That peaked in the 80s and
90s and has dropped since: [https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-
mexico-wall/im...](https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-mexico-
wall/img/how-many-people-are-crossing-the-border.png)

------
em3rgent0rdr
People always say they want to leave, but I'm curious in the actual stats of
what percentage actually leave.

------
purplezooey
Well, we did it to ourselves. I hope I'm living elsewhere when the reckoning
comes.

------
rdtsc
> It's important to note that people's desire to migrate is typically much
> higher than their intention to do so -- as such, it is unlikely that
> Americans will be flocking to the Canadian border. In fact, since Trump's
> election, Canadian statistics show only a modest uptick in the number of
> Americans who have moved to Canada.

Reading the article at first it seems they intended to move, as in they were
researching their options but it is not quite that, it's more of general
musing of "maybe would like some day to move...". And Canada says very few
actually moved.

This confirms to what I've seen in my circle of acquaintances of out maybe 4
people who claimed they would move to Asia, Canada or Europe, none actually
took any steps to do so. I can't blame them, having moved between countries
before, it is a huge hurdle. I had the initial thought of saying "You probably
won't..." to some of them but figured it would just get them upset.

------
tivert
> Regression analysis shows that regardless of differences by gender, age or
> income -- if Americans disapprove of the job Trump is doing as president,
> they are more likely to want to leave...

> Before and after Trump's election, many Americans -- particularly Democrats
> -- threatened to move to Canada (as Republicans did after Obama was
> elected).

So this is just the often-mocked empty-threat to move to an idealized Canada
that's commonly made by politically dissatisfied (partisan) Americans?

------
ransom1538
[deleted]

~~~
sadris
It's very easy to get a visa in Europe. Only $300k for an investment visa in
Hungary.

------
lkrubner
A truly incredible statistic:

“ _40% of women younger than 30 would like to leave the U.S._ ”

That says a lot about the extent to which Trump has alienated young women.

~~~
azinman2
That number seems extremely suspect. If that were really true, it would bubble
about culturally in all kinds of ways.

~~~
village-idiot
.... Have you not been paying attention? A lot of women are _pissed_.

~~~
azinman2
Which is very different from nearly half the population wanting to permanently
emigrate.

~~~
village-idiot
Yes, but if you’re saying “I don’t see any other evidence of dissatisfaction
from that cohort” then that’s because you didn’t notice it, not because it
isn’t there.

~~~
azinman2
That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm specifically saying that I find that
hard to believe that 40% of female youth would emigrate, or 40% of any large
scale demographic of US citizens for that matter.

~~~
village-idiot
Ah, my mistake.

I agree that 40% of such a large population will not emigrate, yes. But the
article is saying that 40% _want_ to leave, not that 40% _will_ leave.
Migration is complicated, expensive, and painful. It’s perfectly reasonable to
expect a significant gap between interest and follow through in this area.

There is however some historical precedent here. When east and west Germany
united, about 10% of the population moved from east to west, most women in the
18-29 bracket. The result is that by 2012 east Germany now has 89 women per
100 men (80/100 in rural areas), a significant statistical gap.

While the causes of the above were different, I’d be pretty comfortable saying
that the culture shock between east/west Germany was equal to or less than the
culture shock between the US and English speaking Canada. So I wouldn’t find a
young female migration in the 8-10% range surprising, although I would find it
deeply alarming.

~~~
azinman2
But to say that 40% want to leave would imply a considerable number will
overcome whatever burdens one has, particularly in the US where the youth tend
to be fairly geographically mobile in general compared to most of the world.
If you told me 40% we’re displeased with the US and fantasize about living
elsewhere, then I’d say that’s more realistic. But to actively want is another
matter.

I don’t think you can fairly compare the the unification of post-communist
East Germany and everything that it implies (secret police, Cold War,
differing economic systems and promises of prosperity, fashion, etc) with the
US vs Canada, especially saying it was less different! Canada isn’t that
fundamentally different in day to day life!

~~~
village-idiot
Honestly, it seems like you’re trying to determine who has a “genuine” want to
move vs. fantasizing. This is a pointless pursuit, it’s impossible to know
what is anyone else’s head.

If you want to nitpick the Pew’s polling, go find or make something better.

------
rabidonrails
This seems like a sensational title. The basic gist of the article is that
while the US in inline with the rest of the world, there is a significant
uptick in younger women who say they would like to leave since Trump.

~~~
rabidonrails
downvotes but no responses?

------
smoothyface
I have a genuine question for people who want to leave the US because of
Trump:

Is your life actually any different since he's been elected (minus constant
media coverage)? I have to say, mine isn't at all. He's barely accomplished
anything that's had an impact on our lives yet people are still so upset about
him becoming president that they want to move to another country. Can anyone
give concrete examples of his policy decisions that have had a negative enough
impact on their life that they would relocate to another country?

~~~
muzz
My German wife's grandparents probably personally experienced no noticeable
negative impact on their lives in the 1930s.

~~~
smoothyface
Godwining this is super unhelpful. Maybe your wife's grandparents didn't
experience anything negative but millions _did_.

------
andrewmcwatters
Age 15-29: 30%

I don't really give a shit about 15 year olds and their perspective on the
world considering they hardly live in it until about 10 years later. The
biggest impacts on their lives are from their parents' circumstance or
decision making.

~~~
cazum
People don't suddenly become politically aware at 18. Paying taxes and
graduating high school doesn't grant you deep political insight.

>The biggest impacts on their lives are from their parents' circumstance or
decision making. While yes, their parents generally have the greatest direct
control over their material conditions, the assumption that they then can't
have any insights into political conditions that surround their parents, and
their own, lives is absurd. For example, the gun violence high school walkouts
were conducted by plenty of fifteen year olds, whose lives are directly
affected by political conditions.

~~~
andrewmcwatters
I'd be willing to bet good money that the number of teenagers who actually
read propositions dramatically increases at literally age 18, considering
that's when you can vote.

So no, people _do_ actually become politically aware, usually around 18 years
of age or older. Until then, sentiment dominates.

------
wil421
>These results are based on telephone interviews with approximately 1,000
adults per year, aged 15 and older, conducted in the U.S.

They only asked 1,000 adults via phone calls? Pretty small survey but I’m not
a statistician.

Edit: Downvoters. Please comment. Was the survey larger? Is 1,000 a large
enough sample size to make conclusions about the whole US? This is HN please
engage.

~~~
tlb
1000 gets you down to 3% margin of sampling error.

Asking the question in different ways can affect the results a lot more.

~~~
wil421
Not very knowledgeable of margin of errors but does 1,000 people, not women,
really give you enough data to represent 30+ million females between 15-30?

~~~
tlb
Out of 1000 adults, you'd expect 125 to be women 15-30. That gives a margin of
error for that subgroup of 9% (at 95% confidence level). They quoted 40%, so
it's 95% likely to be between 31% and 49%.

The size of the population doesn't affect the accuracy of a survey, only the
size of the survey.

~~~
wil421
You answered my first question and now I have many many more.

Thanks for responding.

