
Companies start implanting microchips into workers' bodies - dv_dt
http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microchip-employees-20170403-story.html
======
conjectures
Is this worth it?

\- Health complications, however rare [1], could arise from this.

\- It sounds like microchips bond with your tissue. The implictations for
removal should be obvious.

\- They'll almost certainly need replacing, either due to failure or the
technology becoming redundant.

\- Far from being cool, early adopters are normalising the idea that employers
can tag employees. I'm not OK with this.

That's even discounting the privacy issues:

\- People you don't know will be able to scan you for a unique ID, without
your consent.

\- People will do so.

\- Startups will emerge getting licensing deals to put NFC readers in public
places and sell the data. And so on and so forth.

These things accomplish less than you can do with a phone. Which most of us
never leave home without anyway. Or face recognition, or ID cards, or a pin
attached to your coat/shoes.

[1]
[https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/FAQs/Pages/Microchipping-o...](https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/FAQs/Pages/Microchipping-
of-animals-FAQ.aspx) . Suggests 1 in 10,000 rate of adverse events. Suggest
Epicenter gets a good lawyer ;)

~~~
killjoywashere
> microchips bond with your tissue

Eh, not really. They stimulate a foreign body reaction from macrophages,
creating a synovium-like cyst around the object.

> The implications for removal should be obvious

You'll end up a granuloma (collection of macrophages), which may calcify or
slowly resolve down to collagenous scar tissue.

So, _I_ wouldn't lead with the biology, at least not when pitching your
concerns to scientists. The privacy implications are pretty horrific though.

~~~
meesterdude
I just read a NYT article that some breast implants were linked to causing
cancer. So, while I appreciate your analysis of what the expected biological
response is, there is still room for things to go wrong too, in ways we never
foresaw - or simply neglected.

But yes, the privacy and precedent implications of this will far outweigh the
medical ones.

~~~
killjoywashere
The cancer you're talking about, Breast Implant-Associated Anaplastic Large
Cell Lymphoma (BIA-ALCL), generally resolves with removal of the implants,
though it's a new entity, so we're certainly still learning about it. The odds
that breast implants are unique in causing this peculiar biological response
seems low, from a basic science perspective.

I thought about mentioning it in my original comment, but it's so rare that it
seemed somewhat sensationalist to even bring it up.

~~~
meesterdude
> The odds that breast implants are unique in causing this peculiar biological
> response seems low, from a basic science perspective.

which is why i mentioned it!

> but it's so rare that it seemed somewhat sensationalist to even bring it up.

fair enough. although there can be a sensationalist reaction to the news as
well. I believe only 9 cases were found? I find it's worthwhile for my own
expectations of reality, to respect that nothing is a sure thing, and that
much comes with a big asterisk next to it.

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diyseguy
I am not religious, but I got enough religious programming in Sunday school
that this scares the shiznitz out of me. When this embedded human chip becomes
a requirement, I'm moving to an underground bunker

Revelations 13:16: And the second beast required all people small and great,
rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on
their forehead, 17: so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the
mark—the name of the beast or the number of its name.…

~~~
krapp
>I am not religious, but (bullshit nonsense from Revelations about the Mark of
the Beast)

You appear not to understand how "not being religious" works.

~~~
toomanybeersies
I don't see why quoting the bible is any worse than people constantly quoting
other dead people.

Just think about how often Franklin's "Liberty vs Safety" is quoted here and
around the rest of the internet.

Or how often people like to compare the world to 1984 or Brave New World.

~~~
Fuzzwah
The most obvious difference:

When quoting the bible you're not quoting from the direct source, but a
translated and interpreted version.

When quoting Franklin it is actually his words.

~~~
toomanybeersies
Albeit misinterpreted words:

[https://techcrunch.com/2014/02/14/how-the-world-butchered-
be...](https://techcrunch.com/2014/02/14/how-the-world-butchered-benjamin-
franklins-quote-on-liberty-vs-security/)

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mcculley
This is as dumb as QR codes. Obviously there will be better ways to identify
people for access control in the future. For example, face recognition is
plummeting in cost. Systems should adapt to humans, not vice versa. This will
be obsolete and the users will feel dumb for having gone through it.

------
forthwoart
Because it's too inconvenient to carry a badge? Or make the badge smaller/nfc-
tag-like?

~~~
dv_dt
That was my first thought, if you want smaller than a badge, then maybe a ring
or bracelet should be tried before an implanted device!

~~~
markestefanos
I can't think of any benefits here that a ring/bracelet wouldn't provide, plus
the added benefit of removability without surgery.

~~~
eternalban
Conditioning.

[& p.s. since HN doesn't like single word replies]

They are normalizing mechanisms of maximal control. Just like the perp walk of
innocents in airports. Chipping is what we do to cattle. And of course, a
simple hospital style bracelet would afford a substantially larger surface
area for embedding of technology.

------
twinkletwinkle
>And for me it's just a matter of I like to try new things and just see it as
more of an enabler and what that would bring into the future

Please do not normalize this shit and drag the rest of us down into your
dystopian horror film with you.

~~~
lollerbot817
calling it "shit" that needs to be "normalized" without any basis for this
claim whatsoever sorta makes it seem like the dystopianism is within you, and
not in the thing itself, huh?

~~~
twinkletwinkle
My value judgments are my own, yes. That's obvious (another value judgment).
I'm not making any claim except that employees willingly submitting to having
tracking devices implanted by their employer gives me the creeps. The
potential for evil is just too great for me to want this to become mainstream.

------
daveguy
I don't think this should be made illegal. If you can get an implant to make
your job easier -- hmmm, maybe? However, making this a condition of employment
should _definitely_ be illegal. This crosses a significant line from non-
invasive drug testing to invasive surgery.

But then... What happens when performance is used to determine hiring and
firing and you _can 't_ perform as well without an implant.

I understand these are currently just for ID purposes (easy password). But
these NFC chips already have a certain amount of storage. What happens when
that storage is used to store context information that improves 3-5 operations
rather than just login?

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J5892
It's like they're _trying_ to anger Christian conspiracy theorists.

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SEJeff
And at what point is a well meaning company going to do this and have someone
object on religious grounds (due to other comments in this discussion?). Then
they'll be fired, and sue due to not wanting the mark of the beast.

This has all the trappings of a great popcorn worthy story.

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danellis
It would be interesting if such a device had to be enabled for reading by,
say, touching the tips of your thumb and finger together (like an "OK"
gesture) so you had control over who could read it and when.

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sanswork
I got one of these implanted in my wrist around ten years ago. AMA?

~~~
cbhl
Does it use active RFID, or passive? If the former, when does the battery die?
If the latter, is it possible for someone to burn you from inside by emitting
the right microwave frequency with enough power?

~~~
sanswork
Passive.

Not sure but it sits right under some thin skin so if they have a powerful
enough microwave beam on that location it'd probably burn me equally from both
sides.

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martin-adams
I can log into my Windows device just by looking at it. Surely there are less
intrusive ways of authenticating a person before we start embedding
technology.

------
pilom
Every single one of the privacy concerns listed are exactly the same as for an
ID badge. No one is up in arms about ID badges. If I worked somewhere where
they said "you either have to carry your ID badge with you everywhere on
campus, or you can get this implant", I'd get the implant. If they offered a
ring instead I'd get that though assuming it wasn't hideous.

~~~
ikura
The difference is you can choose when you wear your ID Badge / ring outside of
work hours. The potential to have your location outside of work hours (by
having readers secreted in places) is an invasion of privacy. Most likely
requires cooperation from the 'other venues' and I'm not sure what their value
proposition would be, but my lack of imagination doesn't rule out the
possibility of nefarious uses.

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cowboysauce
>“On the other hand, I mean, people have been implanting things into their
body, like pacemakers and stuff to control your heart,” he said. “That's a
way, way more serious thing than having a small chip that can actually
communicate with devices.”

People don't get pacemakers for fun. They get pacemakers because they're
medical devices that ensure their hearts beat properly.

~~~
danellis
Don't you think that's what he means by "way, way more serious"?

~~~
khedoros1
No, I think he means that putting something into the chest cavity is much more
invasive than a rice-sized subdermal chip in your hand.

The point of that quote is to say that putting something unnecessary into your
body is a big step, but that it's also a much smaller risk while still
providing something interesting.

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ojbyrne
This has been done for entertainment reasons as far back as 2004:
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3697940.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3697940.stm)

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tedajax
Nope, I refuse to ever take part in anything resembling this horse shit.

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EGreg
WHY NOT JUST USE BIOMETRICS AND WIFI TO DETECT MOVEMENT?

Invasive idiocy.

------
fooker
But can I plug in USB devices ? [https://xkcd.com/644/](https://xkcd.com/644/)

