
Ableton Live Redesign - nndmlsvc
http://nenadmilosevic.co/ableton-live-redesign/
======
roldie
Unrelated to the quality of the redesign. I would advise other designers to
not follow this method exactly.

Talking to users is great, it's what separates a designer from someone who
just pushes pixels, but it's not a good idea to ask users what they like or
what they want.

"Does ____ look like a helpful feature to you?" "Does ____ work for you?" "Is
this better than before?"

What's the response going to be? "Sure, sounds good to me". Or "nah, I hate
that kind of thing".

What you should do instead is observe user behavior. Watch how they interact
with the tool/site/etc. and what they do. What are they trying to click on,
what are they looking for, what is confusing. Ask them to talk out loud and
share their thought process as they're going through the design.

Granted, the designer here may not have had time or access to do this, but
then the questions should be more along the lines of what goals the users are
trying to accomplish, and what helps or hinders them.

There's the old adage attributed to Henry Ford, "If I had asked people what
they wanted, they would have said faster horses." Through observation, or
task/goal-oriented questions, discover what people need instead, and design
for that. My explanation here is very simplistic, but I hope it gets the idea
across.

Source: Am designer, and review portfolios and conduct interviews. We look at
process as much as we look at quality of output.

~~~
wousser
OT. Can I contact you to review my portfolio?

~~~
roldie
Sure, my email is in my profile

------
bjt
I like that he followed a process of gathering suggestions from real users and
then testing his solutions with them. It's a big step above the typical "I
redesigned X!" posts that look really pretty but probably aren't very usable.

I wonder what kind of job one would expect to get from this. These tasks
(gathering user feedback, doing visual designs) are probably divided between
several people at Ableton already. Does he want to replace the whole team? Is
he asking to be their boss? Would he be OK with a junior position that lacked
authority to make all the changes he's proposing here?

~~~
nrser
yeah... are their any success stories with regards to these kind of post? all
the ways i play it out in my head don't seems great...

1\. someone at exec/board/mgmt-level somewhat detached from product
development process sees it and comes in with the "see! _this_ is what it
should look like, this looks way better, _this_ guy gets it and he doesn't
even work here! you should hire him / do this." which doesn't tend to be
received too well from the people doing the actual work, who for right or
wrong have all sorts of reasons it doesn't look like that.

if they are forced to bring him in or do it they probably aren't going to like
it / him.

2\. someone on the team sees it and goes "well, this dude doesn't understand
the massive complexities and risks involved in something like this but hey
that one piece is not that bad of an idea, let me re-work some stuff", but it
doesn't seem like it would help them much to bring him on-board... "uninvited"
has a negative connotation for a reason.

of course if could play out very differently, but responses along those lines
(if any at all) seem most likely from my experience. it seems like a good
approach to rally _community_ support for something, but the community is not
the people building the product by definition.

~~~
citeguised
Phillip Sackl landed a design-job at Mozilla by doing something similar. It
wasn't as complex as a full redesign, though.

The application: [http://readyformozilla.com/](http://readyformozilla.com/)

The design-work:
[http://readyformozilla.com/panorama/](http://readyformozilla.com/panorama/)

~~~
problems
Panorama was one of the most promising features Firefox had, but they killed
it. There was a guy who maintained a plugin version and even did some cool
improvements to it [1], but he abandoned it because of Mozilla killing their
older, but more featureful APIs - even those that are e10s compatible. I still
use this thing sometimes and I'm quite sad to see it go.

[1]: [http://fasezero.com/addons/](http://fasezero.com/addons/)

~~~
20after4
Such a sad story, shared by many who supported Mozilla for so long. RIP
Firefox Addons.

------
anonova
I don't really have a problem with the UI; I want Ableton to fix the other
annoyances first:

* Saving the project resets the undo history. A someone who frequently saves, this is super frustrating.

* No normal zoom controls. You have to use the "minimap" at the top.

* Only a single project can be open at once, which makes copying from old projects tedious unless you shuffle files around into your current project.

* Tracks can only be grouped one level deep, i.e., no subgrouping. Most DAWs give you arbitrary grouping depths.

* No way to overlay multiple tracks in the piano roll. I end up starting in one group and extracting to individual buses afterward. This doesn't work well the other way around.

My biggest wish for the next version is project versioning. It's an absolute
nightmare managing so many save "checkpoints", especially, as I mentioned, you
can only have a single project open at once.

~~~
33degrees
Have you tried Bitwig? I haven't but I believe it does address a few of these
things

~~~
Cshelton
I've been using Bitwig and really like it. It still has a few bugs here and
theee but I think the productivity gain over Ableton is good. I haven't come
across anything Ableton does that Bitwig can't either.

~~~
creativeembassy
I want to switch over to Bitwig completely, but I've also been learning
Max/MSP. Bitwig would make me more productive IMO, but Max/MSP is a creative
goldmine. I can't really take Max/MSP with me to Bitwig, I don't believe there
are any efforts at integrating the two... and Ableton just bought Cycling '74
last week.

------
aguynamedben
An Ableton thread made it to the front page of HN?! YES. Awesome work. +100 on
the expanded dedicated mixer view. I like Live because it's so music and the
Push 2 is epic, not because I make electronic music.

I noticed metering was on the survey. I really wish that within a device rack
(along the bottom) the metering between devices had settings that let you see
Peak, RMS, and a numbered meter. You could do it all with lines... one meter
for RMS, peaks that sit at the top, and tick marks for 0, -6, -12, -18. Most
people don't fully appreciate gain staging and it's so important. I use a lot
of vintage Waves plugins (CLA-76, LA-2A, API 550/2500) and I'm always having
to insert Klanghelm meters, Utility effects, or observe the In/Out reading on
those plugins to make sure I'm driving them right. The device area becomes
messy just because a simple lack of metering and gain staging.

Sadly, I think most EDM music makers don't understand this. Maybe I'm stuck in
the acoustic 70s using these vintage-style plugins. =)

My other beef is lack of Arrangement View features on Push 2, but alas, this
isn't a hardware redesign. =) NICE WORK.

------
teilo
Your design is very nice, and has much to recommend it. But in my opinion, it
kills the advantage Live has over many of its competitors. It takes up too
much space, and is too busy.

Live's UI is busy, but not as busy as many other DAWs. It is just enough to
get the job done without using up screen real-estate needlessly. This is one
of its many strengths.

Electronic music production needs efficient workflow. A utilitarian, but
efficient UI wins over a better-looking but less efficient UI. This is why
Live hides so much functionality in small buttons which toggle additional
sections of the UI. Yes, it may not be obvious to someone coming into Live
cold. But it makes working with the enormous complexity of a professional DAW
a breeze once you learn where all the bits and pieces are, and lets you git
the bits you don't presently care about out of the way so you can focus on the
current task.

~~~
microcolonel
Nenad does account for this a bit in the _Display Zoom_ and _Detail Level_
sliders. Presumably moving the detail level up would present the single-click
options which make Ableton a useful product, without necessarily exposing
everyone to those at all times.

------
moxious
Best. Job application letter. EVER. When I'm hiring I'd love to see this kind
of passion and attention to detail. I hope he gets a call from Abelton

~~~
ryan-allen
Me too! If this UI landed in an Ableton update I would be so happy.

------
lioeters
Truly enjoyed this re-imagining of Ableton's user interface, with sketches,
detailed diagrams, and thoughts behind each design decision. It was
educational to see the process of improving visual organization for such
complex software with hundreds of controls.

To implement this design, I imagine it would take a lot more than switching
color schemes. I don't know anything about the internals of Ableton, but it
would have to be made very modular, with public low-level APIs..

~~~
aguynamedben
Interesting side note, Ableton actually has a really interesting low-level API
for music makers called Max for Live that lets anybody create interesting
instruments or effects and share them with others. I'm not a pro at it, but it
seems super powerful and complex (I try to keep it simple when it comes to
music, heh): [https://www.ableton.com/en/blog/programming-in-max-for-
live/](https://www.ableton.com/en/blog/programming-in-max-for-live/)

------
fancyPantsZero
Ableton, hire this guy!

I like how you treated track groups. That's definitely one of the biggest
missing features for me.

I also really like the level-of-detail sliders, what a cool concept, would
really add lots of flexibility to the UI.

------
betageek
If I was a UX student looking for something to redesign Ableton Live is one of
the last programs I'd ever look at - it's a classic of UI design. If you want
to show off your UX chops, choose something that's broken e.g. 95% of the
software in the world.

~~~
empath75
It's much harder to make changes to an already good design. I don't think he
was throwing out the baby with the bath water, they were fairly subtle changes
overall.

------
sideshowb
I hope this guy gets the job he's after! But imo the biggest thing missing
from the ableton ui these days is touch support, and this design doesn't
address it.

~~~
thirdsun
> But imo the biggest thing missing from the ableton ui these days is touch
> support

Or a full featured iPad app. TouchAble seems to be rather successful but it's
a remote control surface rather than a stand-alone audio solution. Plus,
there's only so much you can do as third party developer.

------
nkozyra
First: what a phenomenal approach to a company. Shows a personal connection to
the company and product that I'd bet is lacking in some current employees.

Second: I like the design but: is it just me or does this look a whole lot
like Logic?

------
MrScruff
I'm really not interested in a flat UI from Ableton, this looks cluttered to
me. What I want is proper modulation system, rather than the hacks you
currently have to go through with Max for Live to achieve a result.

~~~
cryodesign
I only dabbled in Ableton Live a little bit many years ago, so I'm not
familiar with some of the terms you mentioned.

Can you describe what a modulation system is - what's your understanding?

Also any examples out there that illustrate this, other apps that do it well?

It's not like a node based shader system like in Houdini or like Fusion's
compositing system?

~~~
realsneil
Not the person you asked, but I believe he is referring to the lack of
arbitrary modulation mapping in Ableton, where modulation is typically one
parameter on a synthesizer, effect or other device being changed over time by
an external source such as a Low Frequency Oscillator (LFO).

Many Ableton devices have features such as this on specific parameters like
filter frequency but, without Max for Live, you can't map custom modulations
from arbitrary sources.

Here is an example on one such Max for Live device, pitched as a 'general
purpose' LFO: [https://www.ableton.com/en/blog/lfo-20-free-max-live-
device-...](https://www.ableton.com/en/blog/lfo-20-free-max-live-device-
robert-henke/)

~~~
cryodesign
Thanks for explaining - that makes sense.

Also did some research online before I saw your answer and found an answer
after watching a video about Bitwig Studio's unified modulations system [0].

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_mQUV2iwiI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_mQUV2iwiI)

~~~
MrScruff
Yes, exactly. If you're creating electronic music then the key aspect is how
you modify the sound over time, so a flexible modulation system is crucial.

------
dneman
So in the end this story came to an unfortunate ending. The guy didn't even
get a proper interview from Ableton. Quoting him from his website:

"EDIT: Unfortunately, at the end, I didn’t get the job nor an interview where
I could have commented on or explained my design decisions. However, after I
got the email saying that they don’t want to hire me, I did get a chance to
talk with their head of design, Ed Macovaz. Ed and I discussed my unsolicited
redesign and he gave me his and team’s feedback as well as some useful
insights on how to improve as a designer."

To me, it's quite a strange turn of events. I would at least call a guy to
have a proper interview.

------
komali2
This is one hell of a cover letter.

------
Jemm
Please consider people who don't have perfect vision.

Grey text on a grey background is just not high contrast enough to be
accessible.

------
hit8run
Big Ableton Fan here and using it for more than 5 years, even though recently
I purchased Logic Pro X too. I like that he added a scale feature to Ableton
in his draft (one thing I love about Logic). To me this theme is not so easy
on the eye and lacking contrast.

I am currently using this theme by PureAV (UI designer of Serum Plugin)
[http://pureav.deviantart.com/art/Ableton-
Live-9-Skin-5893383...](http://pureav.deviantart.com/art/Ableton-
Live-9-Skin-589338351) but it also is not too easy on the eyes and sometimes I
switch back to the default one.

Concerning UI language I also like this Ableton Redesign Concept:
[https://dribbble.com/shots/2255100-Ableton-Live-Redesign-
Con...](https://dribbble.com/shots/2255100-Ableton-Live-Redesign-Concept)

------
icanhackit
Nenad great design man. You really nailed the colors and I dig the flat UI,
similar to what you'd see in a RAW editor like RAW Therapee or Lightroom. It's
consistent, professional and carries a certain logic through all of the
elements. Hope you get the gig!

------
JDiculous
The worst UI flaw of Ableton is its atrocious piano roll. They need to make it
more like FL Studio's piano roll - left click to enter a note and hold it down
to adjust length, right click to delete (yes there's draw mode, but it doesn't
let you do that)

~~~
ryan-allen
I find myself swapping from draw to regular mode with B a lot, and using the
arrow keys to adjust things. It's a bit annoying... I thing piano rolls are
pretty antiquated in general, most people aren't writing chromatic pieces, so
I'd like to see something that was more of a guiding force in programming
within certain bounds of western music theory.

I'm a programmer so I guess I could make it happen!

~~~
rhizome
You could use a wavetable LFO with Autotune to quantize the pitch (if
necessary or desired) to whatever mode you like.

------
Shinchy
But what will the arrangement window look like. That is where I get most of my
issues from when using Ableton (and I use it a lot). Really Glad to see that
newer plug-in setup though - very similar to one of the things I love in
ProTools.

------
franciscop
Really awesome project and research. I haven't used any music software for
ages, but I think it'd be awesome if the author talked with some open source
similar projects and actually got an interface implemented in some system.

------
NamTaf
Just a minor side note and I don't know if it's just something you did during
the data display or if it is actually reflective of how you surveyed, but if
you're surveying for comparitive purposes you probably should keep the
descriptors and options as similar as possible (ideally identical). Having
multiple different 'yes' and 'no' variations can introduce subtle distortions
to the data.

If your goal is to actually deal with users and their feedback, this is
probably more important than it is for anyone who just wants to show their
design clout.

------
sh87
I am surprised with what the author could infer from questionnaires.

I feel questionnaires are stupid. I do have ideas on how stuff I use often
could be made better and I share it with the creators if there is a way to
reach out to them.

I don't mind sharing a video of my typical usage and maybe some annotations
with it but that's it. I don't think I can answer questions like "Do you like
this" or "Do you think this screen is useful" objectively or accurately in any
manner that could be useful to the designer or implementor.

------
fortyfivan
Great work! Tough to tell if I would _really_ like it without spending some
time in use, but the one thing that really jumped out at me was the various
Clip types and states. Very nice.

------
nndmlsvc
Hey guys, thanks for all the comments! If my site is down please head out to
medium [https://medium.com/@nndmlsvc/ableton-live-
redesign-26efebe73...](https://medium.com/@nndmlsvc/ableton-live-
redesign-26efebe73bfc) or behance
[https://www.behance.net/gallery/53789531/Ableton-Live-
Redesi...](https://www.behance.net/gallery/53789531/Ableton-Live-Redesign)

Cheers! Nenad.

~~~
Flow
Since you have a pretty "flat" design, could you imagine there being
preferences settings for adjusting the contrast?

I love the yellow indicators. However, I find gray text on gray background to
not be very readable. Yes, I'm getting old.

~~~
nndmlsvc
There's actually a brightness, saturation, and hue options in Preferences >
Look & Feel > Color. Try playing with them and you'll be able to adjust the
contrast a bit. Cheers. N.

------
codazoda
I'm curious where the list of users to survey came from. For the company, this
should be easy, but for a guy making a cover letter, probably much more
difficult.

~~~
resu_nimda
From the article (not reposting the links):

 _I have used different online communities to get to the Ableton Live users
(thanks again guys, this was super helpful). If you’re interested in these
conversations, feel free to check out the links or screenshots below.

Ableton Forum Part 1 (link) and Part 2 (link) Gearslutz (link) Ableton Live
Facebook Group (link) Ableton Addicts Facebook Group Ableton Subreddit Part 1
(link) and Part 2 (link)_

------
ziikutv
Sadly the website is down and Wayback Machine did not save the picture. I am
really unhappy because I was really looking forward to be amazed.

Edit: Found a sneak peek on Nenad's Dribbble:
[https://dribbble.com/shots/3564223-Ableton-Live-
Redesign](https://dribbble.com/shots/3564223-Ableton-Live-Redesign)

~~~
olegkikin
[http://i.imgur.com/dfCte32.png](http://i.imgur.com/dfCte32.png)

There are tons of more detailed images on that page, but it would be too much
work to save them all.

~~~
ziikutv
Yeah its up for me now. Looks great.

------
rhizome
Just a point of quibble: are 16:10 laptops or displays that prevalent now? The
usefulness of this would go way down at 16:9.

------
exabrial
<3 Abelton, even for it's flaws. Absolutely an essential part of making live
music these days.

------
brandonmenc
A+ for effort, but this re-design looks way cluttered and busy compared to the
current Ableton UI.

------
peapicker
Really don't like the loss of the majority of the clip color into tiny little
bars on the side of the clip. It may look prettier, but it is far less
functional -especially for those who use Live "live" in addition to studio
production.

------
pycal
Nice job! I like how easy it is to see the metering between devices on your
effects chain

------
cdevs
I miss my ableton and fruityloops experimenting days I'm sure people who get
to play with this stuff everyday love their job.

------
the5who
Very cool stuff.. Support for Nenad.

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the5who
Very cool stuff. Support for Nenad.

------
amelius
This UI looks like the control panel of a commercial aircraft.

Not sure if that's a good sign or not.

------
kampsduac
Nice work, hope you get the job!

------
exabrial
Request: please do a mainstage redesign!

------
poisonarena
Burning Man OS

