
Ask HN: Should I let someone poach me? - denoyse
Hi HN,<p>I work as a consultant&#x2F;software engineer for a rather small (~500 employees) consulting company. Currently I am consulting&#x2F;developing in a project at a large (~500.000 employees) company. Today, the manager at my project&#x27;s company offered to poach me into his team for 1.5 the salary I currently get at my home company. This raised some questions for me:<p>- Is it realistic to demand for a 1.5 raise in my next salary negotiations, considering I am rather fine in my current company? Until yesterday, I was planing to demand a 1.25 raise at max. How aggressive can&#x2F;should one be? Would it be wise to say &quot;raise by 1.5 or I leave&quot; if they decline at first?<p>- Could I demand for even more than 1.5 at the project&#x27;s company, considering they currently pay ~3 times what I earn to my home company?<p>- Where do you think my salary would rise faster?<p>- What would be the best point to start off for a possible change of employment in the future, that I have been a consultant&#x2F;developer in many different projects, or that I have been at a big and well-known company?<p>What would you do?<p>-- denoyse
======
onion2k
_Would it be wise to say "raise by 1.5 or I leave" if they decline at first?_

The very fact you're asking these questions means you don't necessarily want
to leave, so don't put yourself in the position where you have to if your
employer offers less than 1.5. If your employer is sensible any negotiation
that uses the phrase "or I leave" will result in you leaving. They will pay
you what they believe you are worth to them - any offer you have from someone
else is largely irrelevant.

Also, check your contract _and the large company 's contract_ very carefully.
There's probably a clause that says you shouldn't leave to work for a customer
in your contract, and the large company shouldn't approach you with an offer
in theirs. Accepting the job could be difficult, and if you leave before
checking you'd end up without a job at either company.

~~~
byoung2
Good point, though you should also check the laws in your area because such
contracts may not be enforceable.

~~~
mattkatzbaby
It is rare that an employee is unique enough to be worth the cost of bringing
lawyers to the table.

~~~
onion2k
True, but the small company would presumably lose the contract if he left and
went to do the same job at the larger company. That might well be worth
fighting for.

------
basseq
You're distracted by the money. Take that out of the equation, then answer the
question—then add the money back in and see if that changes your answer (it
probably shouldn't). This will force you to answer questions like: "Do I want
to work for the client PM full time?" "Do I like the work at BigCo?" "Does the
big company / small company divide concern me?"

If you're going to be doing the same work for the same people _anyway_ , take
the money and run. If you want to do something different, then do something
different.

Remember how consulting works: your hourly cost rate to BigCo is easily 1.5x
your take-home pay. Your client PM is doing simple math: he'd like to keep you
around for the long term, and it's easy to cut out the middleman. He might
even be coming out ahead: it's a win-win. (The loser is your current company.)

Because of this, it's unlikely you'd get 1.5x from your current company...
because the client won't pay 2x. It never hurts to ask, but recognize the
economics of the situation.

~~~
basseq
I keep coming back to this. What I think a lot of the other comments are
missing is:

1\. This is a LATERAL move 2\. You are being paid at MARKET RATES in BOTH
COMPANIES: the business models just differ

You are NOT being underpaid and this is NOT a foundation for negotiation.

Think about it this way. You take home $20/hr currently. Your _costs_ to your
current company (salary, benefits, taxes, overhead, etc.) are probably around
$35/hr. They're billing you out at $45/hr and making a 20% margin.

Your client sees an opportunity to pay you $30/hr directly (call it $40/hr
loaded with benefits, taxes, etc.) for the _EXACT SAME WORK_. They are
_saving_ $5/hr.

If you go back to your current company and demand a 1.5x raise... well, let's
do the math. You make $30/hr. $40/hr loaded costs. So they'd have to bill you
at $50/hr to make it worth their while. The client won't pay that, so the
market won't bear a raise.

~~~
brudgers
Market rate means what can be achieved in the market. Only being able to offer
low wages means that the company cannot compete at the market rate. Typically
a consultant will have a multiplier of at least 2x and more likely 3x. They
have to cover overhead and risk and generate a profit directly from the rate.
A company that makes widgets makes their profit mainly on the price and sales
volume of widgets...reducing overhead helps but isn't the driving force.

The consultancy may need to raise its rates or its principals may need to
accept lower rates of return on their equity in order to pay market rate
salaries. Or they can bill out staff with lower expertise at lower rates.
Particularly if they are competing on price.

But if a consultancy is competing on price, then their also probably looking
to profit from the buy out clause on their employees. Letting talent go to
their clients is good for business. If the OP moves on to the client, the
consultant has a relationship with someone inside. This is good [usually] when
it comes to getting future work.

------
AngeloAnolin
I think you may have covered this, but I would first check whether there's
some sort of contractual agreement between your current (consulting) company
with the client, where no person would be poached (or recruited) within a
certain period of time, during and after providing consulting services. This
alone will save you a lot of grief.

From the gist of your questions, I can certainly say that you're driven with
the financial rewards. But do note that _money_ is only part of the equation.
There's a lot of stories abound similar to your situation where they've chosen
the side of salary numbers and ended up being unhappy and downright
unproductive.

If you know your value, and the value for which employees at the client
company pays, then you could certainly do the math. Asking a n% increase
should be commensurate to the business value your bring to the table.

------
Jeremy1026
Well. Don't go into negotiations with, I make 100k, I need 150k to come over.
Just say your price is 150k.

Without knowing either company, hard to say. Probably the smaller one though
just because they are more likely to not have a corporate structure that will
take forever to move up in.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Consultant = Ability to move
from problem to problem quickly, ability to solve problems in any number of
ways. Big Enterprise = "Proven" track record (in theory a well known company
isn't hiring just anyone that walks in).

------
brudgers
My opinion, for what it's worth:

The manager at the big company wants you. You want the money. Working at the
big company doesn't seem so bad that you're unwilling to consider it.

Your current employer forces you to demand raises raises rather than just
paying you what you're worth. This is basically an adversarial relationship
and your demands only have teeth if you are willing to walk out the door.

Assuming that both companies are more or less equally acceptable as places to
work, the choice is:

    
    
      Big company: guaranteed 50% pay bump on the table.
                   same sort of work you are doing now.
                   more room for growth.
                   clearly sees value in the work you do.
    
      Current company: maybe a pay bump, maybe not.
                       paying below market rate.
                       makes salary increases confrontational.
    

One thing to consider is that if you get the 50% raise at your current
company, how long will it be before you resent the fact that they were
underpaying you before you played hardball? My experience tells my gut that
once someone has to threaten to leave in order to get a raise, everyone is
usually better off if the person just takes the other job.

Finally, in any large company, it is likely that a manager in a position to
offer you a job has already worked through any contractual obligations in
regard to hiring you away from your current firm. Such contracts typically
acknowledge the possibility ways that are reasonable on both sides. But, it is
important to ask the manager offering you the job, what the process is.

Good luck and congratulations on the offer if nothing else.

------
petervandijck
Could I demand for even more than 1.5 at the project's company -> Yes
absolutely. First, decide if you want to move for double the salary. Then ask
for 2x. If they say yes (they likely would), tell your employer: I love it
here, but they're doubling my salary, I have to take it.

------
fsloth
On wage negotiations: the big corp offer and your current wage as per
negotiations are unrelated. You can use the offer as a datapoint as you
estimate your own worth but you cannot use it as a rationale to ask for a wage
increase. You can always ask for more.

I'm not sure what the situation with the big corp offer is but if you want to
move I would use the initial offer as merely as an anchor point and ask for
more (as much money that the decision to move does not feel wrong). Negotiate,
point out your value.

I don't know where your salary would rise faster. Be aware that some big corps
keep people tenaciously on the wage level they are at.

As per future career prospects - signaling that you are smart and get things
done is always a good bet. This means that you should have a brief description
of what you've achieved at your current project at the end of it. This means
if you can't describe your experience as "achieved x at y which delivered
value z" it's time to try to change your current assignment. If this red flag
condition is not met then careerwise you could be doing worse.

A well known reputable name in a CV creates a sense of positive familiarity,
no doubt about it.

It sounds to me you need to figure out what _you_ want to do, formulate a plan
how to achieve it, and observe at yearly intervals have your goals changed and
is your plan working. Figuring out ones career is an empirical and personal
thing - the most important thing you can do about it is to be proactive and
have a plan (that probably needs adjustments at intervals).

------
byoung2
You are grossly underpaid at your current company. A company as large as the
one that wants to hire you might be paying above market salary, but not by 3x.
Say you are making $50-60k, and they offered $75-90k but other developers make
$150-200k. Staying at your current company is holding you back financially, do
you should take the offer at the new company if everything else looks good
(hours, workload, people). Don't bother with a counter offer from your current
job for a jump that big. 25% is about as big as you want to go when
threatening to leave. I would start the negotiations by letting them know you
are aware of what people make and that you should be in line with that, or
there should be a valid reason why not. That should get you somewhere between
1.5x and 3x. Big companies usually have strict raise guidelines so you might
be capped at 5% a year so you need to get all you can in the initial
negotiations.

------
bcg1
Don't take the offer from this bigger company as an indicator that you need to
demand that much from your current company, they are two completely different
situations.

If you choose to negotiate with your current company, only do it from the
standpoint that you are worth that much to them because of the revenue you
bring in or because of your productivity. They don't care what someone else is
willing to pay you, only you care about that.

If you choose to go to the new company, just make the decision and do it,
don't give an ultimatum or anything like that... if you do that, they might
give you what you want initially but there is likelihood that you will be let
go in 6-12 months, or at least shoot your chances for advancement in the foot.

As far as career... having varied experience is probably good, but working in
the bureaucracy of a large organization can be soul-sucking and exhausting.

------
kileywm
To demand a raise of that size from your current employer would likely sour
your work environment there. Put yourself in the current employer's shoes: it
is either an admission from the company that you're severely underpaid or
carries the expectation that you'll be more productive to earn that raise. Yes
they didn't have to try to recruit and train to replace you, but a raise of
that size quickly overcomes the cost of a new hire (if they're brought on at
1x or less of your current salary).

If the money is important enough to you that you want it, then I think you'd
be best off getting it from the poaching company. They'll be glad to have you
- it's why they made the offer - and they are bidding for your
current/potential productivity level.

------
brianwawok
Is there really no clause in your contract with MediumCo that you won't leave
to work for a company you are consulting for without approval? Seems like both
employee -> consulting shop, and customer -> consulting shop often both have
some kind of agreement in place.

------
JSeymourATL
> What would be the best point to start off for a possible change of
> employment in the future; Consultant or Big Company?

Depends-- McKinsey and Accenture are considered strong consultancies known for
their smart talent. But people really like to buy Brand Names. Recall the old
slogan "No one ever got fired for buying IBM"? Same idea, if Big Company has
strong brand, that experience is typically a CV plus.

