

So you’re inexperienced, non-technical, and you want to work for a startup - aberman
http://blog.wepay.com/2010/03/24/so-you’re-inexperienced-non-technical-and-you-want-to-work-for-a-startup-another-post-about-internships/

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gyardley
Better answer: go to work at a slightly larger startup, one that'll
legitimately hire you in a non-technical role for a real (although likely
petite) salary. Customer support or account management. Then, work your ass
off. Take all the responsibility you can grab. Try to transition yourself into
product management, and learn enough about how your product works to get the
respect of the developers. Make a couple of job moves to get product positions
with more responsibility, and eventually become a product-oriented founder
with some of the developers you worked with.

I can tell you from personal experience that that route's worked at least
once, and you get paid the entire time. Of course, I wasn't planning any of
the above - I just dropped out of my grad program and needed to eat - and it
took years. In my experience entrepreneurial non-technical undergrads who
'love startups' have no idea whether they love startups or not - instead,
they're in love with the idea of founding a company and are rather impatient
about it.

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pvg
The much simpler answer seems to be, if you're inexperienced and non-
technical, there is simply no room for you in an early stage venture-backed
technology startup unless you are someone's best friend, cousin or sibling.
Failing that, get experienced or technical enough.

~~~
corruption
Anyone who says you need to be technical in a startup is obviously not
practicing much of 4 steps to epiphany.

Having someone to make those face to face meetings, do all the phone calls,
write up their research and iterate on the business model while you are
developing is a _huge_ advantage. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't really gone
out there and done the face to face research in my opinion.

I noticed on days when I had to do both for various reasons my productivity
dropped dramatically because a meeting either face to face or online is a huge
context switch c.f. changing to a different programming task.

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bullrunbear
Killer post - I think this message really needs to reach the abundance of
business students today. It's tough as nails to get something non-technical
when you're fresh out of college and want to work in a startup. Everyone,
often even the founder, is an engineer. You can teach an engineer business,
but you can't teach a businessman engineering.

~~~
ABrandt
_You can teach an engineer business, but you can't teach a businessman
engineering._

I know what you're trying to say here, but it sounds slightly condescending to
me. First, I firmly believe that picking up "business" isn't as easy as many
make it out to be. Second, if a given businessman had chosen to pursue
engineering I'm sure--all other considerations being equal--they would do just
fine.

These are two distinct disciplines that require two distinct ways of thinking.
Until you acknowledge this fact I really don't think you can successfully make
either a secondary skill set.

~~~
sigstoat
i knew a lot of folks in engineering school who couldn't hack it and went one
building over to business. never met anyone who made the opposite move, for
any reason.

maybe they all liked the b-school's swanky decor.

~~~
dpritchett
I switched to and finished a BS in MIS from a business school because I wasn't
enjoying my CS major. MIS offered me more project work, team building, and
business skills. I followed it up with an MS in CS from the eng school at the
same university.

Now you know of one person!

------
jmtame
this post is dead on. i was approached by an undergrad at the university of
maryland last weekend, and i was instantly amazed by his initiative. this guy
said "i want to help you with your project!" a bit skeptic at first, i gave
him git access and we decided to have a phone call the next day where i would
describe the code base.

that night, before the phone call, i logged into github and saw him committing
code. i was blown away that he was diving into the code without having been
told what to do. and better yet, he had no prior experience in php. he was a
python and ruby kind of guy. my reaction was: wow, this guy is definitely on
that list of 2 or 3 people who i think of when i decide to start my next
company. by the way, those 2 features were added in 2 days on hndir.com, and
the post i wrote about it attracted 2k visitors (and something like 100 new
hackers joined the site).

this guy was technical, but he didn't know php. if you're non-technical, i'd
say be willing to learn and use whatever you need to help (maybe not a
language). this is how the technical guys get started. they just figure it out
as they go.

~~~
mahmud
You're calling a Python and Ruby programmer "non-technical" because he doesn't
know PHP?

I didn't know the technical-skills predicate had its result inverted since I
last checked it out ;-)

Kudos on reaching out to others, though. Can't recommend delegation enough,
and I say that as someone who painted himself into a corner by hoarding work.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
He specifically says "this guy _was_ technical"

~~~
mahmud
I have neglected that fact in my rush to mock PHPers. Of course, the tone and
context set by the submission story (how to contribute in the absence of
technical competence) didn't help at all.

------
qeorge
As pointed out in the comments on your last article:

 _Unpaid internships are illegal._

~~~
aberman
We are in a different position now than we were a year ago. We are happy to
offer paid internships.

That being said, if we (and other startups) _don't want to hire you_ because
you are inexperienced, offering to work unpaid may make it easier to get some
experience. If, for some crazy reason, you really want to work for a startup,
you should do what it takes to break into that community.

That's what I did in college, and for a year after college. No way I would
have been able to found WePay without those experiences.

~~~
qeorge
I'm not trying to give you guys a hard time. I'm glad you're doing well, and
are paying your interns now.

 _However_ , you're still advising people to break the law on your blog. Its a
weird, perhaps antiquated, and largely unknown law - but it was pointed out to
you on HN last week and you're clearly aware of it. Thus, IMHO, its
irresponsible of you to continue to encourage unpaid internships on your blog.

~~~
aaronblohowiak
I do my best to be a good citizen and am a big proponent of workers' rights.
Law is not sacred. Especially unenforced law that inadequately accounts for
the realities of modernity. Personal responsibility does not oblige the
individual to refrain from partaking in a socially-lauded tradition.

~~~
qeorge
Alright, well can we at least agree that you should disclose when you
knowingly give advice that violates US law?

Surely you can see how this could cause problems for someone else who has the
bad fortune of taking your advice at face value.

~~~
shadowsun7
So say that I'm a student. I take his advice at face value, I find a startup
worth looking at, I hop in to help out for no pay. Maybe I do it in my free
time, mid-semester; maybe I do it during the summer break. Whatever. I'm
enlightened enough to know that I'm working for the education. The business
doesn't advertise for it; it's a personal decision that I make to work for
them.

Cut to John Doe. John is the son of Mr Doe, who owns a law firm. He spends
time off working at his dad's law firm, because he intends to become a lawyer.
John is not paid.

If I am told to cease and decease by a lawyer/my school/a policeman - no deal,
I'll just stop and say: gee, I was in it because I wanted to learn stuff. Out
of my own free will. I can't? No problem - I'll just stop. Ditto for John
(though for some reason, I doubt anybody'd actually punish John, or even Mr
Doe).

I don't see how I'd get in trouble. His article is directed at the non-
technical student, not the employer. (If it was written for an
employer/startup founder, then perhaps you're right to suggest that he should
disclose that he's giving law-breaking advice. I'd be fully behind you on that
one, qeorge, I would.)

But the article's fine as it is. And there's a corollary, of course.
Entrepreneurs are relentlessly resourceful. If you're not relentlessly
resourceful in figuring out a way to get into a startup for the experience,
then you're probably not going to make it anyway.

~~~
tsally
This is all irrelevant to qeorge's point. Wepay is a company (dealing with
financial transactions, of all things). The company has a blog post. This blog
post advocates something that illegal. The spirit of the law does not change
the above facts.

It's an article that belongs on the founder's personal blog, not the company's
blog.

~~~
kristiandupont
I agree - except the last line rubs me the wrong way somehow. I think that it
implies that there is a political separation between a founder and the
company. Blogging has helped remove this separation and shown us that all
companies really consist of humans.

------
arethuza
What about:

\- Documentation \- Testing \- Support \- Competitive analysis

All areas that technical people often hate to get involved in.

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Omey101
I try my best to(and think I do pretty well to some degree) practise this very
idea. I am a recent non-technical grad and have been trying my best to add
value to a start-up I reached out to. The one thing that I have found to be my
best attribute is owning a project I know I can do well. I present an idea,
say how I will accomplish it, and execute. The thing I am battling at the
moment is spending more time planning than executing. I spoke with a
knowledgable friend once and he mentioned, especially in the start-up arena,
that once you reach the point where you are 70% confident that an idea is a
good one, you should execute right then. The energy and time involved in
working on the remaining 30% confidence is simply too expensive for a start-up
to afford. I now just need to take this to heart and practise it.

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stevederico
I love this mentality. Helped me get my job I have today.

"Everybody can think of something they are good at; all you have to do is
figure out how that relates to some aspect of what we do on a daily basis. "

Don't ask, do.

~~~
iamwil
Better yet, do. I have no patience for those that just floss big.

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morisy
"Most importantly, know how to answer the following question: 'What do you
want to do if I hire you.'"

Great advice, and not just for startups. I think every major internship I had,
the hiring manager asked me that. A few times, I had no response and was
shuffled around my first few weeks. Eventually, I realized that _probably_
wasn't the best way of going about things.

And all that was at companies with thousands of employees: It's a much more
vital question to be prepared to answer (even if you're not asked) at smaller
shops.

Great advice.

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maxwin
I definitely lost my respect and trust to WePay founders because of their
seemingly support for unpaid internships. Their justification is that interns
can gain learning experience though they're not paid. This is okay if none of
the intern's work goes to production code. If the interns are doing real work
that impacts the company's products, then it is not only illegal, but also
unethical.

~~~
bullrunbear
Maxwin,

Check this out at my alma mater, led by a very respected valley veteran:
[http://www.cob.sjsu.edu/bennet_s/196%20Spring%2010%20Syllabu...](http://www.cob.sjsu.edu/bennet_s/196%20Spring%2010%20Syllabus.pdf)

------
100k
I have coffee that needs fetching. Perhaps you can do that. ;)

