
Occupying My Mind - mtviewdave
http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2011/10/occupying-my-mind.html
======
reasonattlm
This has been coming for a while, and the end of empire is an accelerating
process:

[http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2009/02/the-decline-is-
al...](http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2009/02/the-decline-is-always-slow-
until-the-rapid-collapse-at-the-end.php)

"Freedom and other necessities for prosperity (such as the rule of law,
absence of taxation, and so forth) have been in decline in the US over the
past decade. The specific proximate causes for the legislation and social
changes that brought this decline don't really matter all that much - there is
always some sequence of events that politicians and populace can use as
justification and cover to further destroy all the qualities that once made
their society great."

[http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2011/10/the-prospects-
for...](http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2011/10/the-prospects-for-a-near-
term-funding-desert.php)

"It's no great secret that the US is decaying; this is history unfolding as a
procedural. The US is ever more rapidly becoming just another Europe, Japan,
or pick your dysfunctional fascist-leaning (per the dictionary definition)
economy of choice. The ending of empires that centralize economic and
legislative power, develop a ruling class, grow their military, and debase
their currency is pretty much written in stone - it's the details of the move
from wealth enjoyed in freedom to authoritarian poverty that will surprise
people in their nature and timing."

~~~
te_chris
The absence of taxation is not a prerequisite for prosperity.

Government is the only institution that we, as citizens of secular
democracies, have to protect us from undue influence from theocracy and
plutocracy - and taxation is the most efficient way to fund this. Most
governments are failing at exacting their democratic duties, however, because
over the last 50 years, through incredibly effective lobbying, they have
allowed themselves to be captured by special interests and the actual rules
and accountability frameworks that governments operate within have been
distorted and perverted. This has happened to the point that most western
nations may still have 1 person == 1 vote, but they barely have representative
democracy.

We need to reform government and strengthen its ability to act as the trusted
protector of its people against unhealthy factional interests, not destroy it.

------
Swizec
The thing that bothers me most about the #OWS movement is that it isn't the
99% protesting against the 1%. It's the 10% protesting against the 1%.

In principle I agree with the movement, hell, I will always support anyone
wanting to stick it to the man. But I wonder how many realize that their
freedom and ability to have this opinion is built on the breaking backs of
pretty much most of the world?

~~~
blatherard
I've read variants of the point that the protesters are "rich" by a global
standard. It's an interesting observation, but I don't see how it should
change the protesters actions or positions or mine as a mostly-supporter.

I'd compare this to the civil rights movement. There were plenty of privileged
whites who protested segregation in the US. You could have then reasonably
argued that they were privileged because the US systematically enslaved and
then repressed blacks. And I would say to this, "So what?" They were
protesting something they saw as a problem, on the basis of their shared
humanity.

~~~
Swizec
As I said. They have a point, an important point. I just wonder if they
realize the whole thing is just the pot calling the kettle black.

I guess what I mean to say is that the world order needs to change, but I
don't think this is the way to go about affecting said change. The movement is
basically asking for a new form of _everything_ ... but they're asking the Old
Form (tm) to do the hard work of changing.

------
JonnieCache
The unions, in the words of BBC economics editor Paul Mason, 'find themselves
a "stage army" to be marched on and off the scene of history.'

They're useful for their numbers, but I don't think the majority of people in
these modern movements find them totally credible.

------
Mz
_I'd like to do what I can do to help make sure that change is intelligent
progressive change taking us forward to a new prosperity, not backward into a
false hope for a time that has passed and is not coming back. And I'm
wondering if the #OWS movement is interested in that conversation._

My assumption would be "not". Light one small candle rather than curse the
dark. Talk with the people who will discuss it, regardless of their
affiliation (with #OWS or not). Dark times are a time when the future
gestates. Decide what you want born of it and become the (gentle) midwife to
it's (probably bloody) birth.

Peace.

------
norswap
"Whether it be the tea party on the right or the #OWS on the left, the
citizens of the US are clamoring for change."

The tea party that cheers execution ? Somehow I don't think they'll change
things for the best.

~~~
mseebach
If you judge the entire tea party movement by a riled up audience acting
stupid at a debate, you're missing an important point (the exact one being
made in the last nine words of the quoted sentence).

Also, if you're being consistent, any show of idiocy from OWS protesters (you
can start with the Lyndon LaRouche bunch) should lead you to discount that
entire movement, too.

------
adnam
Are union dues that much? I pay around 10€/month.

------
wavephorm
The only real way out is to abandon conventional capitalism. Corporations are
getting TOO good at extracting wealth out of citizens and leaving them with
less and less ability to gain wealth of their own. The slip knots are getting
tighter and stronger with time because the system is designed by those most
likely to benefit from this socio-economic structure.

~~~
mseebach
The financial sector is by far the most heavily regulated and protected across
the entire western world. There is nothing "conventional" about that brand of
"capitalism".

Show me a corporation that's "TOO good at extracting wealth out of citizens
and leaving them with less and less ability to gain wealth of their own" and
I'll show you a corporation that's in bed with the political system.

~~~
wavephorm
And look no further than the many cartels that have been erected: oil,
telecom, healthcare, energy, and of course banking & finance. These industries
are held together by the government and the laws are written to keep
competitors out at every scale.

~~~
dereg
You've nailed it. I disagree, however, with your labeling that as
"conventional capitalism". That's crony capitalism, and always has been. As
they say, capitalists hate capitalism.

