
For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now a hot commodity - sbuccini
http://www.startribune.com/for-tech-weary-midwest-farmers-40-year-old-tractors-now-a-hot-commodity/566737082/
======
macinjosh
My grandfather, rest his soul, was a 3rd generation rancher and farmer. He
bought 2 John Deere tractors in the '80s and used them for 35 years. They are
still being used to this day on the ranch.

Growing up, I visited the ranch regularly. Farming and ranching is very hard
on equipment so the tractors often needed repair. My father and grandfather
could seemingly fix anything on the tractor without even needing to go to the
parts store. (The closest one was a 1 hour drive). Without this capability my
family never would have been able to make a living of any kind with their
land.

In 2020 farmland is being gobbled up by corporations. The family farmer is
going extinct. That means tractor companies are getting a whole new customer
who is nothing like the previous. Corporations want tractors as a service,
they want them to be self-driving, and they want to manage them in bulk. They
don't really care if they can repair them because they pay someone else to do
it.

Personally, it is sad to see this change since so much of my family history
and memories are tied up in the way things used to be. I sometimes feel out of
place in my family because I couldn't fix a single thing on a tractor. On the
other hand my grandfather didn't touch a computer in his entire life.

The world changes and sometimes it sucks but that is how progress is made.

~~~
earlINmeyerkeg
The greatest innovation in the history of mankind was a land consolidation. It
took what 100 peasants all making enough food for subsistence living to 100
peasants be able to make enough food for thousands of people.

It's not sad, it's progress.

~~~
zorpner
_It 's not sad, it's progress._

These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

~~~
temporalparts
It's sad that progress must mean sadness for some. We should have better
social safety net so that displacement doesn't mean despair.

~~~
macinjosh
While the financial/livelihood component is a major factor I think most of
those affected, if asked, would say that is the least of the reasons for their
sadness. It is the intangible things being lost and the end of a way of life
that causes the most pain IMHO.

------
brenden2
The technology itself is not the issue, the problem is that companies are at
war with their customers. These companies will go to any length to extract as
much revenue as possible. Milking your customers is not good for business,
especially if you drive them into insolvency.

I hope in the future there are more companies that try to align incentives
with their customers, such that their business practices help customers be
more successful (although many of them preach this, very few actually do).
Many businesses these days seem to be geared toward making a quick buck,
rather than really providing any value.

~~~
sneak
If customers don’t want this stuff, why isn’t there a competing company
offering non-DRM tractors?

~~~
lostgame
If you don't know the answer to that - you may have wanted to think it through
a little more.

Manufacturing at scale is hard and expensive. John Deere has been doing it for
years, creating the most reliable tractors in the world for decades and has
only recently decided to bend customers over to give them the ol' in-out-in-
out.

A new brand would need to start from almost smaller than scratch, and have
tens of million dollars of investment to even get started producing their own
tractors. Then they'd have the uphill battle of a set of people who are
extremely reliant on these machines to trust a new company with no track
record with highly mission-critical equipment.

It would be an incredibly high-risk investment, with little to no guarantee of
success.

Instead, as the article says - these farmers are not buying new tractors from
_anyone_ at the moment.

~~~
solatic
In today's market, your argument doesn't hold water.

A new brand would need to start from smaller than scratch? So what? People
start new companies every day.

It would require tens of millions of dollars of investment? So what? We keep
being told how capital markets are just sloshing with cash looking for
investment opportunities; that one of the reasons for rising inequality is due
to the _dearth_ of investment opportunities for the rich to use to seek
returns.

They'd have trouble finding customers willing to give them a shot? So what?
_Every_ startup has this problem. You solve it by differentiating yourself
from your incumbent competitor. When your competitor is so hated that they're
getting negative press in national news outlets and state legislatures are
being pressured to pass laws, your differentiation proposition _is practically
written for you._

I'm sure there are tractor upstarts out there trying to get funding. The
question is, if they're not getting funding then why not, and why doesn't
anybody know about them?

~~~
chalupa-man
The moment you started to see any real success with a company like this and
become significant competition, John Deere would reverse their equipment-as-a-
service DRM-based model, and you would be instantly crushed by their far more
familiar and established brand with all the accumulated knowledge and trust
people already have. It's so certain that you have essentially no chance of
long-term success. John Deere can operate like this because there's no
competition, but the second there is competition than can revert to how they
were and you are dead, so there's no point even trying.

~~~
solatic
Brand isn't everything, it doesn't "crush" competitors in markets without
winner-takes-all characteristics (i.e. network effects). People buy
smartphones that aren't iPhones; people buy burgers not made by McDonald's;
people rent hotel rooms not offered by Hilton or Marriott. By the time the
upstarts get competitive enough to force the incumbent to act, the upstarts
already have branding and market power of their own, and are not so easily
crushed.

~~~
syshum
I think you discounting the brand way to much.

Hotels, Food, etc are very much Brand focused, and absolutely people have
their preferred brand of Hotel and Fast Food (and despise other brands)

------
rebeccaskinner
As a former founder of an Ag-Tech startup, I feel like this article is vastly
minimizing the on-the-ground reality that are facing a lot of farmers. Sure,
for smaller farmers cost might be a factor, and I'm sure nostalgia plays in a
bit, but the biggest issue by far that we found when we were talking with
farmers working on building our products was a profound frustration with the
use of DRM, draconian licensing terms, and vendor lock-in. John Deere is
basically the Oracle of the tractor world.

These farmers are not a bunch of ignorant backwater hicks- the ones that we
worked with are shrewd, generally educated, and not at all afraid of
technology. In fact, the reason I founded a company in the first place was
that there's clearly a lot of demand for better technology among farmers. The
problem is that the licensing terms and lock-in from their vendors have
squeezed Farmers into a corner. None of their equipment is interoperable, they
are bound by expensive recurring fees for software, locked into support
contracts, can't repair their own equipment; the same situation those of us in
tech have been shouting about for decades.

Maybe if we paid more attention to the farmers we could find some good allies
in some of our movements.

------
pleasantpeasant
Right to repair laws need to be put in place.

American corporations are trying to reach a point where you don't own
products. You are merely long-term renting or leasing products from them. And
any alterations or repairs will come with a heavy price.

It's already hard enough to repair your own vehicle without taking it to a
dealership. How long until small car shops can't even fix any cars if they
don't have the tools or software.

~~~
xnyan
It's already here. The only reason I can do my own work on my N20 engine BMW
is because they implemented really bad and vulnerable car DRM that can be
trivially defeated, but they have improved on that in latter models.

~~~
BoorishBears
You can't work on them, or you can't flash them with emissions control
defeating tunes?

~~~
bsagdiyev
Or install a replacement part without taking it to the BMW dealership and
having them code it to the car. Why is it only don't work on cars or pollute
like no tomorrow? There is a middle ground and a lot of people are screwed by
DRM like this because of it.

~~~
BoorishBears
>Why is it only don't work on cars or pollute like no tomorrow?

Who said it was? The comment mentioned working on the engine specifically,
there's not much DRM that can interfere with working on the engine unless
you're trying to tune your ECU.

It's not like the N20 is going to check your pistons and connecting rods for
authenticity before starting after all.

There are not even that many parts in BMWs that are VIN-locked, and much fewer
with actual DRM. Usually the parts referred to with that, the BCMs are VIN-
locked by most manufacturers (I know GM and Mercedes both do the same)

I'm sure you can come up with some outlier parts for specific models, but in
general, complexity of newer cars it the enemy of repair, not some active
attempt to get you into a dealership.

-

In fact, I'd almost say the opposite is true of brands like BMW. They make a
lot of money of leases with "maintenance included".

As they caught on to how brilliantly leases were paying off they started to
stretch recommended service intervals to keep people out of the dealership as
much as possible.

~~~
bsagdiyev
The N52 engine will refuse to start if the iDrive system is not working (if
the car has this feature), the iDrive system is an expensive replacement, on
top of the work required to code it to the car. All of the in-car systems
signals go through the computer that controls the iDrive system since it is a
fiber ring network through the car, terminating at the amp in the trunk and
the iDrive system in the front.

~~~
BoorishBears
How does iDrive being VIN locked become, "I can't work on my engine"?

Also definitely want a source on the N52 requiring iDrive to start, because
obviously not all the cars with the N52 even had iDrive...

It sounds like you're oversimplifying it.

iDrive probably fails in a specific way that causes a problem for the car's
network, _not BMW intentionally had the car stop working because your music
couldn 't play._

That would be exactly in line with what I said about complexity being the
issue, not some concerted effort to get you into the dealership. It's
confusing a bad design with malice.

------
melling
“ They cost a fraction of the price, and then the operating costs are much
less because they’re so much easier to fix,” he said.”

It’s not really so much a technology problem as the ability to repair,
probably by the farmers themselves.

Companies don’t make it easy. You need special equipment, tools, etc.

We could insist on a right to repair, open standards, etc

~~~
privateSFacct
All good ideas, but repairing surface mount / integrated / dust and vibration
glued parts is not as easy EVEN IF they were open standards as a 40 year old
tractor is to repair. I spent way to long repairing an old gas engine, it was
super simple in terms of operating approach. Opening the hood on my new car -
the fixes are not as obvious.

~~~
melling
I couldn’t even swap out a headlight in my girlfriend’s car, because of the
tight space.

Instead she has to pay a garage to do it. That’s not it used to be.

~~~
hinkley
I volunteered to replace a headlight in my girlfriend's car long ago. The
socket was completely buried. No access from above. The assembly looked like
it was held in by two screws and a section of 3/8" metal bar, so no problem,
I'll remove those, pull it out and then replace the bulb. Nope. You couldn't
actually get it out because the hole was slightly too small.

Looked it up online, shops put this model on the lift and access it from
below. Ended up laying on a piece of cardboard in a light rain because it was
only accessible from below the bumper. If my forearms were any shorter (I'm
pretty tall) I would not have been able to do even that.

Meanwhile the headlight on my 10 year old VW went out a couple months ago.
There's a twist-on cap, and a twist-in socket. The cap is visible standing up.

I had the replacement bulb in in under a minute. Unfortunately the matching
bulb on the other side, the socket was a bit wedged and I spent most of the
time getting it out.

------
RosanaAnaDana
There is probably a sizable market for building out software and technology
for 'upgrading' older farm equipment to modern principals, such as self
driving, variable rate fertilization, variable rate planting, etc. When I was
more involved in ag research I met several farmers who DIY built themselves
variable rate fertilization drills. While its not ubiquitous, the farming
community has a very long culture of DIY out of pure necessity. I think this
is the source of the pushback against companies like JD.

~~~
froindt
I've heard of farmers going so far as to make their own GPS guidance systems,
enhanced before they were widely available and reasonably priced. I'm not sure
how accurate and repeatable they were.

Going to any farm that's been around for 20+ years, you'd see so many custom
solutions that are really functional.

Farmer one-off solutions are kind of like homebrew Excel applications -
they're infinitely customizable, the end user knows exactly how it should work
and can reasonably make it happen, and it's a small fraction of the cost of a
commercial/IT SOLUTION. It may not be as reliable, but it's good enough.

~~~
pmiller2
Does civilian GPS have enough resolution to be useful in a tractor guidance
system?

~~~
froindt
I belive they were enhancing it with terrestrial base stations (Loran-C was
mentioned in the discussion, which was 10+ years ago). John Deere has
proprietary secret sauce and if I recall correctly, they can get sub 1"
accuracy. That precision farming has enabled things like different amounts of
fertilizer for different parts of the field, a substantial material savings
and improvement for the environment.

~~~
bryik
u-blox's ZED-F9P chip is capable of 10 mm (0.39 inch) accuracy [0]. AFAIK,
high accuracy requires being relatively close to a terrestrial correction
station. Some states, such as Iowa, run a network of these stations and
provide free access to the public [1].

0 -
[https://www.sparkfun.com/products/15136](https://www.sparkfun.com/products/15136)

1 - [https://iowadot.gov/rtn/IaRTN-resources/About-the-
IaRTN](https://iowadot.gov/rtn/IaRTN-resources/About-the-IaRTN)

~~~
froindt
I'm from Iowa but had no idea the DOT ran such a network! Thanks for sharing!

------
nas
As someone who grew up on a farm and spent 7 years running one (few thousand
acres so fairly good size), I can provide some background on why this is
happening.

The large farms are driving new equipment sales. They are the ones buying the
brand new John Deere $700k combine harvesters will all the bells and whistles.
The problem is, those bells and whistles add a lot of extra complexity to the
machine, making it harder and more expensive to fix. Deere doesn't make it
easier since they don't provide details needed for 3rd party repair people
(e.g. schematics, software tools for managing embedded controllers, etc). The
people buying new equipment don't care about that. Their equipment is covered
by warranty and Deere fixes it for them (or replaces it). They sell the
machine after it is a year or two. So, they never deal with the crap repair-
ability of new equipment. The 2nd stage used market cares a little but not so
much either. They can still get Deere to fix it for them, maybe not under
warranty.

By the time the equipment gets to the 3rd tier used market, it is already
heavily deprecated. The loss in value due to poor repair-ability is not
getting fed back up the chain in any significant way which would make the
primary buyers change their decision making. They want the bells and whistles
and they will pay a little extra in deprecation to get them. The problem for
society is that you have a $700k machine that is basically a paperweight after
a decade or two. You might was well drive it in the junk pile because no one
is going to be able to make it run. At least, not without tearing out heaps of
electronics that are no longer working. New machines are utterly dependent on
onboard electronic control systems (e.g. ECMs). They won't run without them.

New machines are disposable and that is what the buyers are deciding to
choose. You can't put all the blame on companies like Deere. The contrast to
old farm equipment is dramatic though. We have an old Ferguson tractor, might
be from the 1950s. Everything on that tractor can be fixed. If we wanted, we
could make it run like it just came out of the factory. For jobs on the farm
that don't need a big tractor, it does them just fine. Probably in 100 years
you will still be able to keep it running if you want.

~~~
lotsofpulp
> By the time the equipment gets to the 3rd tier used market, it is already
> heavily deprecated. The loss in value due to poor repair-ability is not
> getting fed back up the chain in any significant way which would make the
> primary buyers change their decision making.

If the value is heavily depreciated by the time it reaches the “3rd tier” used
market, why would the buyers in the “2nd stage” used market not factor this
depreciation into the price they pay for it when they buy it used from the
first owner? Surely people spending $700k on capital purchases know a thing or
two about factoring in resell and depreciation into the prices they are
willing to pay.

------
vearwhershuh
_" These things, they’re basically bulletproof. You can put 15,000 hours on it
and if something breaks you can just replace it.”_

Amen.

It is true that there is always someone saying "Things were better back then."

But that doesn't always mean that they are wrong.

~~~
svachalek
Yup. I also put large household appliances in this category. They've been
getting more expensive and more fragile for decades, without much real
progress other than energy efficiency which is unrelated to the fragility
afaik.

~~~
Diederich
Do you think normal gas powered cars have have been getting less reliable?

I agree with what many others here have said about how hard it is to service
new vehicles. After he died, I kept my grandpa's 1970 Chevy C-10 pickup going
for years. It was simple and very easy to fix/work on.

But it needed a lot more attention than modern cars, and I think that while
the age played a factor, it was just inherently less reliable.

Key points: that Chevy needed an oil change every 3-4000 miles. New cars need
oil changes every 8-10000 miles, give or take. Old cars also needed tune-ups.

What do you think?

~~~
mushufasa
older cars were more repairable. reliability is harder to make a blanket
statement about.

the most important difference IMO is that older cars are now dangerously
unsafe by modern standards, by orders of magnitude. crumple zones, multiple
airbags, pedestrian scoops, and now driver-assists like emergency braking.

~~~
frenchyatwork
Cars are a bit of an anomalous category here. Driving is a pretty dangerous
activity, so it's pretty sensible to give up some reliability & repair-ability
in order for a safer road-coffin.

This is much less true for something like a fridge/thermostat/tractor.

------
annapowellsmith
Comment from a tractor-owning friend:

 _That 's a very good piece capturing a lot of the issues (esp GPS
retrofitting which is easy and make a huge difference)._

 _The one thing it doesn 't quite draw out is that the market has segmented.
If you are a small to mid farmer you have fairly low demands for horsepower
and can tolerate small breakdowns you can fix in the field. So buying an older
machine makes sense._

 _If you are a big farmer or a contractor (person with a big tractor
/combine/machine who hires out) you need high horsepower and 18 hour a day
operation without breakdowns. as in fleet purchasing for trucks they have
rolling finance for high capital value kit to replace it every couple of years
having run up high hours._

 _The modern electronic high power kit is quite amazing, it 's not gratuitous
use of electronics. Electronics also important for meeting modern emissions
regs._

 _Tractors, as the piece points out have to be ultra rugged for field work and
that means that the older stuff does last well and 100hp or over will get you
a long way._

------
woodpanel
Being a city-dweller for all my life it was a relevation to be finally exposed
to farmer life. In many regards, not just the snobbish urban-myths (super
conservative, unintelligent, smelly, unindustious government-dependend anti-
environmental inbreds) that I held.

The farmers I know, have a huge range of skills, from metalworking,
construction, woodwork, mechanical engineering, biology, geology and are
putting that knowledge into practice every day. All of that while planning
years ahead (for instance how to plow your field this year, so that in 5-10
years you don't get a massive slope on your field's edge).

So when farmers talk about fixing a tractor themselves, it's not just about
being able to buy some screws or replacement joints, it's about welding that
piece you need, sanding its steelframe to remove rust, knowing whether to bend
or clinch instead of welding. It's even about building the tools to build
those parts.

------
knolan
My father is an agricultural mechanic here in Ireland. Lots of farmers here
use very old tractors. It’s not unusual to see David Brownes, Case
Internationals, Massey Fergusons, John Deeres and Zetors going back 20 – 30
years or more.

There’s a strong industry of companies selling spares too. Many farmers simply
can not afford they new stuff and in many cases they are huge in size making
them unsuited to small out buildings on family farms. That’s before all this
new wave of shitty behaviour towards repairing rights and software.

------
ketzo
Disclaimer: I have been on a tractor exactly once in my life, no idea what any
of the realities of this would be. _But..._

Doesn't it seem like there's a huge opening for Cheap Solid DIY Tractors Inc.?
All I read about is how farmers hate tractors available now for their lock-in,
their shitty software, their insane costs -- I wonder what's preventing
someone from selling tractors that match the description listed in this
article.

~~~
randomdata
As a farmer, I don’t think I’ve ever met another farmer who hates modern
equipment. I’m not sure where that narrative has come from. We drool over the
latest tech.

I know many who choose older equipment for financial reasons, as the article
suggests. Modern equipment is insanely expensive to purchase and is simply out
of reach of the smaller farmer.

If older equipment was actually a hot commodity, more than newer equipment,
economics tells us that older equipment would be worth _more_ than newer
equipment and that is simply not the case. Price falls consistently with age
for a comparable machine. They are paying more for a 1980 model because
someone else is paying even more for the 2000 model.

There are plenty of basic tractors on the market with little in the way of
electronics. But building a new tractor is expensive. While they come in well
below the cost of a decked out John Deere, they are still a lot more expensive
than a 40 year old tractor.

------
colechristensen
I am a silicon valley DevOps engineer with roots in an Iowa family farm which
20 years ago was trolling farm auctions to find pre-electronics-dominated
equipment so it could be repaired on site, if anybody has any questions.

------
briantakita
The broken tractor is a big reason why the Open Source Ecology project was
started.

[https://www.opensourceecology.org](https://www.opensourceecology.org)

Btw, Open Source Ecology does have a DIY tractor as well.

[https://opensourceecology.dozuki.com/c/LifeTrac](https://opensourceecology.dozuki.com/c/LifeTrac)

[https://www.opensourceecology.org/portfolio/tractor/](https://www.opensourceecology.org/portfolio/tractor/)

They regularly have courses, workshops, internships at their Missouri farm.
There's a full machine fabrication shop, permaculture farm, & sustainable
living community. Their courses are a great deal & they even do work exchange.
Highly recommend checking it out.

------
hinkley
I belonged to a club up until last year where probably half of the members
were currently or formerly professional landscapers or related careers.

The number of them who were not into computers was quite high. I want to say
it's 'surprising' but that statement doesn't even survive a giggle test. Not
everyone is enamored of IT the way we are, and some have perfectly good
reasons for that. Not every step we take is a step forward.

I kinda think that the only reason we don't hear more complaints is that
people are preoccupied with other professions that don't quite deliver on
their promises, especially the medical profession. If Western Medicine somehow
got sorted out tomorrow, I would not be surprised if by next week many of
those pitchforks were pointed at us.

------
JMTQp8lwXL
My understanding is that farming equipment is quite specialized, but I fail to
see how no entrepreneur has capitalized on making "old school" tractors today.
The immediate retort is that John Deere's approach is maximally profitable--
but is it? Sketchy websites host hacked firmware giving farmers the freedom to
work on their own tractors anyways. The equipment manufacturers have lost
their goodwill with farmers. From the ashes could rise a new firm that doesn't
try to act so, well, crony. Even if they didn't end up as big as the
incumbents, there's no doubt a profitable business exists with ephemeral sales
of farming equipment that don't mandate expensive maintenance from your
company's people.

~~~
paulmd
nobody wants an "old school" tractor that needs someone in the cab driving it.
Modern highly-integrated farm equipment is a massive boost for productivity
and a massive reduction in costs.

There's a different discussion to be had as to why there hasn't arisen a
company that shears the sheep a bit more gently, but generally on the whole
the market doesn't want the old-school tractors. This article is not the
overall shape of the market. Farmers generally want to farm, not be
software/hardware engineers developing their own tractor guidance systems.

As for that topic, generally markets are not as efficient, modern businesses
operate at such high scales that it's extremely difficult for competitors to
enter the market. It took Elon Musk to do it for the auto industry, that's the
scale of funding and production that you need to compete. It's an oligopoly,
not an efficient market.

techpeople like ourselves are the last ones that should be pointing fingers,
we are the ones who created the whole "as a service" model, and created the
basis for closed firmware that users have no right to access. It's our
business models applied to a different market, and it's just as noxious when
we do it.

It’s not like I can go take a look at the firmware of the processor I’m typing
this on, now is it? Why doesn’t someone just start up a new CPU company that
lets me see everything?

(and yeah some people like RAPTOR are trying but that’s the shape of the
problem, it’s a niche desire and there’s enormous startup costs, and
established players can easily drop prices for a few years and crush you, so
realistically it’s not a market that can be efficient.)

Markets aren't going to do this stuff on their own. If you don't regulate them
via something like right to repair, they'll skin you as roughly as they please
and crush any upstart who tries to do things "the right way". Welcome to the
Free Market - a truly free market is rarely "fair" to competitors or pleasant
to customers.

------
a-dub
A few years ago a bartender friend of mine shared a joke/investment tip with
me. He said "if I had money, I'd rent a warehouse and fill it with appliances
that aren't internet connected. In 20 years, people will be desperate for
them."

I think he may be right.

------
fifthace
If tractors with closed software are such a problem, why doesn't a company
build old-school tractors? Heck, you could use a 1980 design, currently
selling second-hand for $40-60k, based on expired patents.

~~~
mattgrice
Farmers need same-day access to replacement parts, which means a dealer with a
full stock of parts within driving range. Belarus/MTZ tractors are low tech
designs but have about one dealer in every state.

------
savingGrace
What happens when we are so far away from the past, that there are no older
tractors? Will our current 'new' tractors still work without dialing home or
requiring computers when they're old?

I keep wondering that about our automotives as well. I want vehicles that are
safe for my family, but ones that I can work on with a general understanding
of automotive repair and physics. Will there come a point where you can no
longer work on any new automotives?

------
donatj
I've commented this on HN before, but the small farmer is criminally
underserved. You can get so much more bang for your buck buying an old tractor
than anything new, and there are whole cottage industries that have sprung up
making replacement parts. If you go to a tractor show you can get just about
any part you need apart from perhaps major body components.

I think a startup making cheap reliable tractors could make bank.

------
ngneer
This may be the single most important information security problem worth
solving on our planet. This is not about who gets to see the latest movie at
what resolution, it is about vendors and farmers fighting for control of the
plant, in this case the tractor, and indirectly its yields. I think the world
needs an open source tractor, or else am hoping the right to repair movement
addresses these difficulties.

~~~
jay_kyburz
It's more than that. I'm in Australia, hiding inside away from the smoke haze,
thinking about where global warming is going. Seems clear to me that in the
next 20-30 years most farming will need to move indoors into climate
controlled environments. We'll need to have closed systems where the air,
water, soils, and our biodiversity is carefully managed.

~~~
titzer
> We'll need to have closed systems where the air, water, soils, and our
> biodiversity is carefully managed.

Let that sink it. We screwed Earth badly enough we need to build spaceships
_on Earth_.

------
weinzierl
I have an IHC (International Harvester Company) 433 that is about 60 years old
and it is still in use occasionally for forest work. It is amazing how robust
and reliable these old machines are.

Fun facts:

\- It has 8 reverse gears and 16 forward ones. With a maximum speed of about
25 km/h this is very granular. On the other hand: the diesel engine is very
forgiving and not easily stalled.

\- It does have an operating hours counter instead of an odometer.

~~~
pmiller2
I always felt as though an odometer reading was only a proxy for what really
matters when it comes to most maintenance schedules (operating hours). Tires
and brakes would be an exception, but for most parts, operating hours is the
better proxy. There's a reason airplane maintenance schedules go by hours
flown rather than distance traveled.

------
gen220
We recently had to bin a beloved TV, and were looking for a "simple" 4k TV
(i.e. _not a smart TV_ ) to replace it, and were surprised to find that they
simply don't exist!

We ended up uncovering a 6 year old 1080p TV that was still in the box at Best
Buy.

All in all, this problem might present an opportunity -- there might be new
markets for these types of devices (dumb TVs, tractors, refrigerators, air
conditioners, thermostats). Given them a modern UX, but eschew all of the
creepy features of modern tech (always-on monitoring, open tcp/ip ports,
impossible to repair).

In theory these high-quality, low-recurring-revenue products should be easier
to build, and similarly easy to market ("we don't spy on you, we break in ways
that are fixable"). And you can charge a premium, because you're offering the
freedom of ownership (ironic, I know).

~~~
Someone1234
Just don't hook the "smart TV" up to the internet. Then you have a dumb TV.

~~~
stjohnswarts
Exactly, it can't phone home so you essentially have lobotomized the smart
part.

~~~
lucb1e
You still get the software crap. An old TV, power on was instant, you can
switch to a different input at will. My current TV has a reasonably short boot
time (but still a boot time) but then switching to HDMI input it says "smart
features will be available shortly" until it fully booted. The remote is also
awful, you get this crappy cursor (operated like a Wii) that isn't actually
any easier than using the UI with arrow buttons, you can't turn it off, and it
switches from buttons to this mouse type input when you move it too much. I
hate it.

------
jeffrallen
A farmer in my village in Switzerland imported a 1980's Ford tractor from
Texas. He had to repair the front axle, which had been cut. He told me the
axle was cut to render the tractor unusable after it was traded in for some
kind of emissions credit. Anyone hear of such a system?

~~~
jdhn
Sounds like the farming equivalent of Cash for Clunkers. IIRC, Cash for
Clunkers rendered the vehicle inoperable by destroying the engine block, and
in this case it seems that they cut the axle.

~~~
jeffrallen
This is the CA one: [https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/programs/farmer-
program](https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/programs/farmer-program)

And this is an example Certificate of Destruction:
[http://valleyair.org/grants/documents/FARMER/Certificate-
of-...](http://valleyair.org/grants/documents/FARMER/Certificate-of-
Destruction-Form.pdf)

"I hereby certify that the equipment and engine described above has been
received by this facility and will be permanently destroyed for recycling
purposes only in accordance with the Heavy-Duty Off-Road Agricultural
Equipment Replacement Program Guidelines"

So, at least in CA, it is not legal to export the tractor.

------
markvdb
The Karhkiv tractor plant models from the USSR are one step easier still to
maintain, and hence very popular outside the west:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv_Tractor_Plant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv_Tractor_Plant)

The XTZ 150K: [http://xtz.ua/en/kolisni-
tractory/xtz-150k-09-172.html](http://xtz.ua/en/kolisni-
tractory/xtz-150k-09-172.html)

~~~
golem14
Tons of equipment on Alibaba

[https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/large-wheel-
tractor-w...](https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/large-wheel-tractor-
with-240hp-Deutz_60836182100.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.10b651cbDgwiNd)

Not the faintest idea if any of it is decent. However, China probably uses
their own tractors. They have a huge farms also, so maybe these are
serviceable...

------
dejv
Somebody posted about open source tractor, but deleted the post before I
managed to reply, so here we go:

Growing up in communist country it was really hard to buy tractor for your
personal use as private enterprise ls was prohibited and all land was
confiscated except of 1000m2 for personal use.

Owning tractors even for land this large (and to share with family and
friends) was still something desirable so people come with their own designs
build on top of ready-made or repurposed materials.

I can still see those machines from 70s or even 50s still working as there is
nothing in them to break down.

I personally own 30 years old tractor which first life was spent on rice field
of Japan. Again very simple build and outside of structural damage there is
almost nothing that can fail. I am sure it will live for another 40 or 50
years without much problems.

------
noisy_boy
I don't know anything about tractors but I would assume that those used in
developing countries are less "digitized" and probably easier to repair so
does this open up a market for them to export? Or are they too "inferior" in
terms of features that this is not feasible?

For example, I would assume that, India being a largely agricultural economy,
has a pretty strong base of farming equipment. Is this an opportunity for
them?

------
soapboxrocket
Reminds me a bit of my great-grandfather. He bought his first tractor from my
grandfather when my grandfather retired and auctioned off all of the farm and
equipment.

There's a lost Minnesota PBS documentary from the 50s/60s about farmers still
using horses and he is interviewed in it, and in the middle of the interview
he just starts going off about someone shooting his horse, "those sons of
bitches shot my horse!"

------
dsalzman
Opportunity for a company like $TESLA or other startup to provide additional
competition in the farm equipment space. It's a duopoly between John Deere
(Green) and Case IH (Red). A modular electric system would work well since the
required speeds are low and torque is important. Extra points for a small wind
turbine based charging station that can mount to a barn.

~~~
bluGill
A tesla uses about 20 horsepower to push itself down the freeway (it is
capable of much more, that is what it is using after about 5-10 seconds to get
up to speed). A tractor rated at 100 horsepower is expected run at 100
horsepower output continuously. 100 horsepower tractors are considered small
(or maybe mid size) tractors these days.

In short, a battery operated tractor will need to stop to recharge every 5
minutes - if you can find batteries that will allow you to discharge that
fast, most will not.

------
dekhn
I work with CNC and 3D printing, but I still enjoy my chisels and plane.
There's something satisfying knowing the tool you're using is one people have
used for thousands of years (with minor incremental updates to the technology)
and it's still the best tool for the job.

------
zelon88
When I worked in manufacturing with heavy machinery I was taught that the best
type of machine is one that functions regardless of it's condition. If you
ever walk around any old tractor shows you can see that style of engineering
throughout all those old pieces of equipment.

------
lostgame
This is one of the single best examples of the ludicrous nature of the recent
pattern of loss of right-to-repair with regards to software and hardware
control.

John Deere is literally bottom-barrel scum of, well, I guess, now - the tech
industry - and it's their own fault that farmers are turning to purchasing
older models.

'“There’s an affinity factor if you grew up around these tractors, but it goes
way beyond that,” Peterson said. “These things, they’re basically bulletproof.
You can put 15,000 hours on it and if something breaks you can just replace
it. It's not even just the price difference - the newer machines, any time
something breaks, you’ve got to have a computer to fix it.”'

The article then goes on to mention they're SOL, with the tractor stuck in the
field for potentially days while they wait for a technician to come and charge
$150/hr to fix it.

First off, farmers are not, for the most part, computer or software
technicians. While there are certainly exceptions (I was only a farmer for 4-5
years of my life, total, I don't think I count), I've spent years on and off
living on farms, and a lot of farmers in the rural US and Canada are lucky to
even just have access to Satellite internet. I imagine doing a case study of
farmers who would have an identical tractor with and without the software, and
seeing how many would actually even use or miss it. I'm guessing not a lot.

The idea of relying on software technology is profoundly alien - and high-risk
- to even just the culture of most farmers. To then put arbitrary restrictions
on repair is far more than enough reason to ignore the newer products,
especially with the familiarity and known reliability of older models.

It's a 2011 vs. 2017 MacBook Pro kinda deal - pretty much the same insides,
but with out the ability for the user to go in and upgrade the RAM or the SSD
to add any value afterwards, and the removal of familiar and useful ports. And
if one part breaks, you're screwed and stuck travelling to an Apple store, if
you're fortunate enough to have one in your area.

Right to Repair is one of the most critical things we as tech users need to be
defending in the upcoming years. I've been buying Apple computers exclusively
for 15+ years, and I will be buying a Lenovo next, as Apple has taken away my
right to repair and upgrade the device myself, while simultaneously removing
features, and raising the price.

If I was still a farmer, you wouldn't catch me dead buying a new John Deere -
I could never bring myself to support such obvious greed and stranglehold
control.

At least with a Tesla, you'd get the benefit of it being an EV. Maybe that's a
fair enough trade to lose your RtR.

But with John Deere and Apple, by buying a new product of theirs, you are
literally removing the rights and abilities you had several years ago. That is
just pure greed - and we need to vote with our money.

~~~
josephorjoe
I'm not a farmer and I am a software engineer, but I'm with the famers here. I
want as little software in my products as possible.

I've been shopping for some audio equipment, and noticed that the latest
version of an audio interface I'm interested in has replaced hardware switches
on the device with software controls run from an attached computer.

I was immediately turned off by the new version and will likely buy a used one
or one from a different manufacturer.

The hardware switches are old reliable technology and do not add much weight
or size to the unit. And while the device is meant to be connected to a
computer, it just needs to do so as a signal passing device, not as a device
that is dependent upon software on the computer.

I'm sure the marketing department could explain why the new software
controlled version is super awesome, but all it looks like to me is extra
setup headaches and creating a dependency on software that I have no guarantee
of being able to install on a future computer/OS combo.

Plus, there is always a chance the manufacturer will do something stupid/evil
and brick old versions some day.

~~~
vibrolax
Exactly. Many years before everyone started buying computer controlled home
audio playback devices, hobbyists and pros built or bought their digital audio
workstations whose buss interfaces and device drivers made them subject to
rapid forced obsolescence. One doesn't mind replacing working hardware so much
when new models offer better performance. But once the tech matures, one
resents _upgrades_ forced by firmware / OS / application software issues.
Especially so when the performance becomes worse for one's use case.

------
duxup
The frustrating issues with this are the surrounding politics.

New tractors require service contracts / subscription type deals for new
tractors. They require authorized service only.

Right to repair had some traction in Minnesota, but MN GOP opposed it... and
guess who the farmers vote for?

------
DaniFong
Pay attention Hacker News!

In this, _finally_ open source software/hardware has a giant market
opportunity and a population with demands:

onwards; go and solve this need!

make something people want: good, reliable, sustainable (in every sense) farm
equipments and systems (fertilizer, pest control, seed)

------
calewis
Interesting relationship between another front-page article:
[https://www.foodandwine.com/news/borden-dairy-
bankruptcy](https://www.foodandwine.com/news/borden-dairy-bankruptcy)

------
Markoff
would not importing tractor from abroad like Europe make more sense
financially? you can buy them for peanuts here and my understanding is you can
drive whatever you want on your private property in US, so you don't need to
care about some complicance with norms

I just checked classifieds and tractor here in Czechia with 20yo replaced
engine will cost you 5000EUR, newer up to 10000EUR, still way cheaper than
prices they quote

or why is no brand taking this market by hit with some cheap basic tractors
like did Dacia in car industry in Europe? seem it should be hit judging by
article, just sell tractor without electronics with old design from 80/90s

------
apotatopot
"tech weary" and “An expensive repair would be $15,000 to $20,000, but you’re
still well below the cost of buying a new tractor that’s $150,000 to
$250,000." wtf come on. This has nothing to do with technology.

~~~
pmiller2
Here's where "tech weary" (side note: maybe "tech wary") comes in:

> There are some good things about the software in newer machines, said
> Peterson. The dealer will get a warning if something is about to break and
> can contact the farmer ahead of time to nip the problem in the bud. But if
> something does break, the farmer is powerless, stuck in the field waiting
> for a service truck from the dealership to come out to their farm and charge
> up to $150 per hour for labor.

------
rkagerer
That's it, I'm holding onto my 20 year old mobile phone in case it makes a
resurgence in another 20 years. Replaceable battery, no tracking, and
components you can _see_ and re-solder!

------
pmiller2
So, what are the real advantages to the newer tractors over older tractors for
farmers? Why _should_ a farmer spend 4-10x as much for a newer tractor as they
would for a 1980s model?

~~~
mminer237
I'm not an expert, but I think generally tractors have become much bigger and
more powerful over time. This works well for the large farms they're marketed
to as they have to prepare and plant huge areas quickly. Smaller farmers
probably couldn't work the fields fast enough with their older equipment that
can't pull super wide discs.

Transmissions have definitely become super advanced, but I'm not sure all the
advantages of that. The main thing I would think of is that it can compensate
so you can maintain your speed better even when you hit a rough spot.

In addition, newer tractors have a lot of nice, kind of gimmicky features in
the cab. Things like satellite radio, working air conditioning, anti-theft
systems, and GPS-controlled planting are nice even if they're not necessary.

~~~
jccalhoun
>In addition, newer tractors have a lot of nice, kind of gimmicky features in
the cab. Things like satellite radio, working air conditioning, anti-theft
systems, and GPS-controlled planting are nice even if they're not necessary.

From what I understand, this is really the main advantage.

------
ptah
> tractors from the 1970s and 1980s aren’t so dramatically different from
> tractors produced in the 2000s

I think we are coming to a point where "progress" stops and technology stays
stable

~~~
bluGill
Really it is tractors from the 1950s that are not dramatically different. More
hydraulics and more horsepower are the only important things. AC and more
comfortable cab/seats are secondary that might or might not matter to you.

------
daveheq
I don't know why John Deere and other manufacturers aren't making parts for
these old tractors, if they're not already, seems like a huge market
opportunity.

~~~
bluGill
John Deere is. There are policies for when a part can go out of production. I
can't talk about them, but it amounts to if it is replaced often it remains in
production. (My local dealer has the oil filter for my 1939 tractor in stock).
Electronics are tricky - chips from 20 years ago are not made anymore, so if
that electronic system breaks you are done. We try to predict how many
replacement parts will be needed and make a large final order but sometimes we
are wrong.

The fact that we make replacement parts longer than our competitors is one of
our big selling points.

#deereemployee, but not speaking for my company of course.

------
joncrane
Aren't there brands of tractors made in India and/or China that are less
computerized and perhaps easier to run and repair than the bad green ones from
the USA?

------
diogenescynic
Reminds me of the 4x4ers who prefer 80s and early 90s Toyota, made before
there were any computers involved, Which let’s them do all their own repairs
and modifications.

------
graycat
How 'bout we have some cars made that way, that is, as rugged, reliable, long
lasting, easy to repair, mechanically simple, as those 1980 -- 1990 farm
tractors!

------
bondolo
I learned to drive tractor on a John Deere 4240! It is good to know that my
skills stacking and loading round bales, plowing, discing and harrowing are
still viable.

------
everyone
So what happens when someone tries to make tractors like the ones the farmers
want? Does big-tractor put a hit out on you? (srsly I wouldnt be suprised)

------
economyballoon
Also here we can see: a machine, in this case a tractor, has to be more
complicated in the future to ensure economic growth and to rise added value.

------
tareqak
I'm surprised that John Deere isn't going around buying their old tractors,
and then scrapping them or learning how to make one again.

~~~
nas
They know how to make the old equipment. Buyers with enough cash to buy new
equipment don't want it. They get warranty and they want all the fancy
electronic features on the modern stuff. Deere know what they are doing.

------
aj7
It appears that tractors in general are dramatically overpriced. Who else
makes big tractors? Brazil?

~~~
marcosdumay
> Brazil?

Up to a point. Larger than that point there are different specializations that
you will only get from a single manufacturer. For a few of those that
manufacturer is Brazilian, but most of the time it's from the US.

------
aazaa
Flash player update scam. I'm outta there.

~~~
ct0
noscript is a great tool to stop this

~~~
metalliqaz
and a great way to break lots of websites

------
allovernow
Every time I see an article like this, I can't help but imagine some penny
pinching MBA laughing all the way to the bank. Textbook example of running a
company purely for profit, with no regard for ethics, social good, legacy, or
their customers.

------
red-indian
My own tractor is 67 years old. The parts catalog brags that not only do they
carry every part new, but they have a photo of a copy they built entirely from
contemporary made parts. It's a fine tractor and not hard to work on.

------
theFeller00
I'm in the midwest and have friends that are farmers with old tractor
collections. While I can't say I share their interest, it is certainly better
than my coworkers plastic figurines.

