
Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests - cyphunk
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45971538
======
jschuur
If I read the article correctly, this wasn't about building a new 'Google
campus' (i.e. a huge building to house a large number of Google employees as
their main regional HQ). This was about building Campus Berlin, an incubator
for startups like they pioneered first in London and then brought to other
cities.

See [https://www.campus.co/berlin/de](https://www.campus.co/berlin/de) and
[https://www.campus.co/london/en](https://www.campus.co/london/en).

It's easy to misunderstand this because of what the term 'campus' is typically
associated with. I live in London, and when I say 'I'm going to Google's
Campus', I often need to qualify that I'm not going to their main office
complex at King's Cross.

There may still be very valid reasons to protest Google in Berlin, but I
wonder if the people objecting understood the distinction: that this wasn't a
hub for all of Google's employees, but rather a place that would help
diversify the tech ecosystem in Berlin and give them access to facilities and
other resources.

The kind of smaller startups that would be home at a Campus style incubator
would not be fueling high paid Google salaries and would be a lot less likely
to drive up rents e.g..

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
> help diversify the tech ecosystem in Berlin and give them access to
> facilities and other resources.

Another way of looking at that, is "gentrify the vibrant neighbourhood by
trucking in techbros to displace the artists". It's not new (1)

I don't necessarily agree with that framing, but it is understandable and
coherent, not a misunderstanding

1)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18282143](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18282143)

~~~
pteredactyl
The mutual exclusivity is naive at best.

To me, it shows haters' level of intellect. And perhaps explains why they feel
left out. They're attached to an ideal of what 'art' (additionally,
activism[1]) should be. An outdated, 20th century one.

I personally don't like Google. And I understand your framing is hypothetical.

But why is tech framed the opposite of art?

Why is tech equal to techbro?

Yea there are always bad apples. But I wonder what Da Vinci would think about
holding art in the opposite category as tech?

I'd argue they're more synonymous than opposite. To me, there's creativity.
Both art and tech are creative. Applied creativity pertains to both code or a
paint canvas.

Either way, the best, most valuable work to society is often never been done
before.

Can anyone name an art piece (or if I'm being generous, an art movement) in
the last 15 years that's made the level of impact as Google? Or
cryptocurrency?

Ultimately, to me, the 'artists' need to up their game. Big time.

[1] Protest city hall if you feel gentrified. Especially in SF where it's
largely illegal to build housing. Also, regarding gentrification, you don't
hear the positive stories of immigrant families whose businesses flourish
because of increased capital in an area, or those who feel safer, or even
those who cashed out and sold their 50k house for 1.2 million. Again you hear
a largely misdirected, dated and one-sided argument.

~~~
eigenvector
The mutual exclusivity is valid. Being able to do stuff that requires a lot of
time and doesn't make a lot of money (i.e. art) requires a low cost of living.
Adding a bunch of people making $200k+ into a neighbourhood does the opposite
of that, very rapidly and very predictably.

~~~
jkaplowitz
Most people working for tech _startups_ (as opposed to for Google itself)
don't make anywhere near that salary, especially not outside the major US tech
hubs. This campus would have been a startup incubator, not a regular Google
office.

That said, yes it would have still contributed to gentrification in a less
extreme way than a true Google office.

~~~
ehnto
A low cost of living is also a benefit to bootstrapped software/web companies
(small blogs, niche publishers, other online content creators).

But gentrification still happens without big dollar companies showing up. It's
often a side effect of the success of the arts in the area. As the wealthy
kids move in to be hip and cool, and the businesses that enjoy their money
move in afterward, rents go up and creators are pushed out.

------
keiferski
I’m honestly kind of surprised at Google’s complete lack of cultural or
diplomatic knowledge about Berlin. Kreuzberg is/was the center of artistic
culture in the city, and choosing to have a presence there, no matter how
small, would clearly be viewed as a corporate American attack on local
countercultural values. As another commenter stated, they could have avoided
this entire issue by picking somewhere in Mitte or a western suburb.

~~~
bko
I think arbitrary restrictions on groups that can purchase or lease space in a
neighborhood is bad for a free society. I guess people say it depends on what
group you're imposing. Now it's Google which you may or may not like, but
other groups can be harmed in the future. This is part of the whole NIMBY
movement.

As long as the group is following laws and zoning restrictions, there should
be nothing preventing them from joining a community

~~~
eropple
Nobody is restricting Google from doing anything. They are expressing--in a
way that is part of, and frankly should be expected of being a member of, one
of those "free societies" you mention--that Google is _unwelcome_ , and no,
nobody is obligated to make you feel _welcome_. There are cases where not
making somebody welcome kinda makes you an asshole, but that does not,
frankly, apply to anybody who's got a stock ticker symbol.

This is "you piss in the pool wherever you go, please stay away from our
pool." This isn't NIMBY in any meaningful way and the comparison is downright
mendacious.

~~~
bko
> Nobody is restricting Google from doing anything

From the article: In September activists occupied the building it was to be
located in for several hours.

That seems like the activists were preventing them

> This is "you piss in the pool wherever you go, please stay away from our
> pool." This isn't NIMBY in any meaningful way and the comparison is
> downright mendacious.

Saying you do [something I don't like] and I don't want you to do [thing I
don't like] in my neighborhood is exactly NIMBY

~~~
mehrdadn
> Saying you do [something I don't like] and I don't want you to do [thing I
> don't like] in my neighborhood is exactly NIMBY

No, that's most definitely not NIMBY. NIMBY means you support something when
it's farther away but oppose it happening close to you. It stands for "not in
_my_ backyard", not "not in any backyard".

~~~
bko
Presumably the residents there use Google services. They likely want Google to
exist, but just not in their back yard

~~~
eropple
"You use the services that have functionally become required for daily life
regardless of whether you like them or not, so it is in some way hand-
flappingly hypocritical not to let them step on your community too" is not
really the winning argument here.

~~~
eyeinthepyramid
What Google services are required for daily life? Don't they all have
competitors?

~~~
eiaoa
> What Google services are required for daily life? Don't they all have
> competitors?

Not really. It's sort of like RMS with open-source hardware: yes there are a
handful of modern computers that can be made to work without binary blobs, but
it's a lot of trouble and only a few people will actually do that out of
principle. It's _practically requred_ to run proprietary binary blobs.
Similarly, Bing, Duckduckgo, and OpenStreetMap exist, but Google services are
_practically required_ for modern daily life.

For an illustration: a typical local shop is going put the effort into making
sure its information is correct on Google Maps and that their website is
indexed on Google; but it's going to put zero effort into updating its info on
OpenStreetMap or making sure it's indexed by Bing. If you want info about that
shop, you're probably going to have to use Google.

~~~
mehrdadn
> For an illustration: a typical local shop is going put the effort into
> making sure its information is correct on Google Maps and that their website
> is indexed on Google; but it's going to put zero effort into updating its
> info on OpenStreetMap or making sure it's indexed by Bing. If you want info
> about that shop, you're probably going to have to use Google.

That's a great example, thanks for mentioning it. I'll probably use it from
now on.

------
woodpanel
Rightly so.

Berlin has an amazing start up scene, certainly unique for and unrivaled in
Germany. That being said, Berlin hosts a lot of NIMBYism. Particularly by
people who gentrified the city in the first place and immediately turned to
become fierce gentrification enemies. Essentially locking in their gains.

~~~
simonh
Though presumably not financial gains? Gentrification usually implies
skyrocketing property valuations, so early movers should stand to win big from
the trend.

I used to know someone that bought a flat in Soho, central London, in the
mid-90s. She sold it when she married 8 years later and made over half a
million quid. No idea what it would be worth now.

~~~
woodpanel
It's gentrificators that become anti-gentrification activists once they
secured their gain.

The "gain" in this case is:

1) Getting to transform a neighbourhood (that you weren't a part of before)
however it fancies you, while simultaneously prohibiting those that come after
you from doing the same.

2) locking in the low rents you have to pay. While keeping supply of housing
artificially low you're thus increasing the rent-gap between what you have to
pay and those that move in after you.

As the other commenters noted, Germany has a low home-ownership rate (good
thing IMO but a whole different story). Because of strict laws on how to
increase rents, gentrificators can secure themselves the low rents from before
gentrification. It is not uncommon that one neighbour tenant in the same house
pays two times your rent.

~~~
killjoywashere
> It is not uncommon that one neighbour tenant in the same house pays two
> times your rent

In the US, it is not uncommon that one neighbor homeowner next door pays two
times your mortgage.

I would be interested in your story about home-ownership, but difference in
pricing due to time of arrival doesn't seem like a differentiator between
renting and buying.

~~~
woodpanel
if I get you right, you want to know the reasons why I‘m in favor of low-
ownership rates. On top of my head:

\- Economics of scale: housing companies provide more quality/ € than your
landlord that owns one flat or even what most owner-occupiers can reasonably
provide for themself.

\- Real Estate is a Commodity, yes. Owning that is an investment, yes. But
living in one isn‘t. It’s a product that you use. We should stop telling
people otherwise. A house is not your retirement.

\- Austria, Germany and Switzerland are the countries with the world‘s lowest
home-ownership rate. Putting them in that order, you also get their GDPs
(Switzerland being the richest) as well as the lowest ownership-rate. That
clarifies some myths: a) that low rate has anything to do with WW2 (it
doesn’t) b) that high ownership rates benefit the people (it doesn’t, Third
world countries have ownership rates topping 90%)

------
simonh
I'd be interested to hear the opinions of any Berlin residents. Vocal NIMBY
minority driving away new jobs and beneficial development? Genuine victory in
preserving local culture and character? Bit of both? Other?

~~~
hocuspocus
I wouldn't call it NIMBYism.

\- Most residents in Berlin (and in Germany for that matter) rent their
apartments.

\- There's a fairly good supply of newly built homes. It's still not enough to
absorb the population growth, but it's much better than in many German cities.

People complain because they can see the downside of this influx of tech
workers very clearly, while the benefits aren't obvious, at least not yet.
Rents have doubled in some areas. Government offices are understaffed. So are
kindergartens, schools, ...

While the government is partly to blame, a lot of startups haven taken
advantage of Berlin's situation in questionable ways. The time where you could
hire cheap developers is definitely over, but it's still very common to
underpay and abuse people in non-engineering positions, who very often are
interns and freelancers.

Kreuzberg is maybe too emblematic and Google is a scapegoat here, but I can
understand the resentment against tech incubators.

~~~
fjsolwmv
Why can't local government use these techies' income tax money to pay for
schools and development? This smells like classic blameshifting.

~~~
expathacker
If you've ever been to the San Francisco Bay Area, you'll find that this never
happens. Quite the opposite in some cases, the influx of thousands of upper
middle-class young techies has priced out families (and teachers). This lowers
enrollment, which results in school closures. Circularly, school closures
reduces educational funding to the detriment of schools while increasing
distance for children to travel to schools, encouraging more families to move
away.

Logically you would think as these rich 20-somethings become rich
30-somethings they will start having children, but after 10 years they cannot
afford SF either, so they also move away.

Sure, forcing out Google doesn't solve the problem, but it sends a very clear
message: Profits are not more important than livable communities.

~~~
eecc
Exactly the same dynamic is happening in Amsterdam, where schools are closing
down fast as less teachers can afford to live within the ring and move out to
Almere and other satellites. Some local politici were even celebrating and
advocating this displacement but were trounced at the last municipal
elections, but the process continues and these schools are being refurbished
and sold as elegant lofts in Hartje Hoofdstad.

------
doombolt
Why not build in e.g. Leipzig or other beautiful but jobs-starved city?

Come to think of it, why no campuses in Italy or Spain? Those countries have
kinda lowish expenses, good weather and people will pay a premium to be able
to move there. Instead everybody is opening in London and Switzerland which
are overpriced and kinda meh.

~~~
meguest
Spain and Italy currently have weakened economies caused by large unemployment
and government debt.

Italy in particular is at risk of defaulting on its debts (which are 131% of
GDP compared to 87.7% for the U.K and 64.1% in Germany as of 2017) and the ECB
and other lenders are going to be reluctant to lend to them. This is turn puts
the banks and all kinds of public services at risk.

~~~
doombolt
I don't understand why it will be harder to attract software developers to
Italy versus Poland. Weather and environment are much nicer and if this job
ends you just move elsewhere.

I would easily move to a cheap locale even if tech scene there is not
abundant. I'd not move to London or Switzerland since you will always be 2nd
class citizen compared to e.g. bankers. Which is just non issue in southern
europe.

Weak economic is a thing you _leverage_.

~~~
travelbuffoon
> 2nd class citizen

Huh?

Also, those places are way more international than most places in Europe,
which makes relocation more attractive. Good luck attracting non-Italians to
Italy, or non-Polish to Poland.

~~~
doombolt
Is not it obvious? When you tell you do software in Perugia you sound
important, when you tell the same in London you basically say you're a nobody.

I would gladly move to Italy with its amazing culture. I would not move to a
place so diverse and full of recent immigrants that it no longer has any
specific culture. Am I unique here?

And yes, people relocate to Poland a lot, from ex-USSR countries for example.

~~~
pjc50
You don't want to immigrate to London because there are too many immigrants?

~~~
doombolt
Yep! It's so crowded, nobody goes there anymore.

------
sarabande
One viewpoint from those who didn't want the start-up campus in Berlin, from
the Berliner Morgenpost
[[https://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/article215652919/Nach-
dem-G...](https://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/article215652919/Nach-dem-Google-
Rueckzug-waechst-der-Druck-auf-den-Senat.html)]:

    
    
        Sehr viel drastischer formulierte es Ulrike Schneider, Aktivistin beim Initiativkreis „Google-Campus & Co verhindern“, die den Konzern beschimpfte: „Google ist und bleibt ein Scheiß-Konzern, der seine Gewinne mit Überwachung, Ausschnüffelei, Zusammenarbeit mit Militär und Geheimdiensten sowie Steuertricks macht.“
    

> Ulrike Schneider, an activist at the initiative group "Stop Google-Campus &
> Co", criticized the company even more drastically: "Google is and will
> always be a shit company, that makes its profit through monitoring,
> snooping, working with the military and secret services, and tax [evasion]
> tricks."

I'm sure most local residents mostly care about rent prices going up in that
area, though, rather than a specific anti-Google sentiment. They probably
don't want it to be gentrified as another district, similar to what
happened/is happening to Prenzlauer Berg.

~~~
expertentipp
Berlin is going nuts in recent times, it's unbearable. There are literally
billboards around the city agitating against Facebook and Google (sic!).

Somehow, the same activists with dubious motivations don't mind domestic
entities like infamous credit rating agency or the debt collection agency
collecting the public media fee. The public media debt collection agency has
the most complete database of who lives where and with whom in the whole
country, probably the most comprehensive database on domestic households that
exists in the world, certainly in the EU. What about it, fraudulent privacy
zealots?

~~~
detaro
> _the same activists with dubious motivations don 't mind domestic entities_

[citation needed]. The examples you mention are widely disliked and fought
too. + of course conflating privacy activists and those protesting Google here
likely is not very accurate.

------
m23khan
There is a city called Hamilton in Ontario, Canada. Houses a good University
called McMaster and is near Waterloo University - premier Computer Science
university in Canada.

City (Hamilton) is fairly well developed with a functioning International
Airport and since it was initially built around manufacturing, its prestige
within Canada has suffered somewhat in last 20-25 years. If firms like Google
would be so kind to invest there, the locals and the children of locals and
other Canadians would welcome them with open arms.

~~~
GhostVII
Google already has an office in Kitchener/Waterloo (which they are expanding,
afaik), and Toronto, so I don't think they would want to build an office in
Hamilton, since it is pretty much right in the middle of those two offices.

~~~
mikelward
This isn't about a Google office, it's about an incubator for startups.

------
cyphunk
The problem with "guess they don't want jobs" argument is that Google is not
like Ford Motor Company. When they move into your town and your rents double
you can't just be retrained. When a company that requires special skills moves
in they kick people that do not have those skills out.

~~~
antt
>When they move into your town and your rents double you can't just be
retrained.

Why?

~~~
Sargos
It's not a politically correct thing to say but most people aren't smart
enough to work in tech. It's a fairly top tier field unless you're doing
something really, really basic.

~~~
cyphunk
It's not about being smart enough. It's about time required to retrain and the
cost to do so. Until Google, or PeidPeiper, have a on-job training program
sufficient enough that they can walk into every Shop of Kreutzberg and say
"here, we we'll teach you the skills you need just come work for us" \-- we
should assume their setting up shop will displace a ton of people. Until those
companies add to that "and we'll pay your cost of living until you transition"
their movement into a neighborhood should perceived as a Tax by the state.

------
forkLding
Interesting to see tech globalization increasingly at the crosshairs, used to
be McDonalds, etc.

------
nkkollaw
As cool as Berlin art is, so is a Google campus for tech people and business
in general?

If I picture a gentrification activist I think about a purple-haired kid that
wouldn't get a job if his life depended on it, making people that might be
interested and have the skills to work at Google miss an opportunity.

On the other hand, Google could have picked another spot instead of giving up?

How is it..?

------
narrator
Google people want to work where there is culture because they don't have any.
They just consume it with algorithms, extract the value, reprocess it and
redistribute it. They pull everything out of context so it looses its broader
meaning.

For instance, if I google image search for "women in bikinis" I get hundreds
of thousands of women in bikinis, but not the broader narrative of their lives
and personalities. It is completely decontextualized and drops all the other
dimensions of the context in which these photos were taken.

In the same way, Google employees lack context because everything is a
component, they moved from somewhere else and have been assimilated into the
great corporate standardization. They crave things with context, but when they
try and coexist with it, their enormous economic superiority draws the
interest of the whole world to extract from that environment that which
promotes their ability to decontextualize and conform the world around them
and the decontextualization whirlwind grows around them.

~~~
brainwad
You see the simple answer to your query because Google decides what to show
based on what users will prefer, and most users just don't give a fuck about
"the broader narrative of their lives and personalities".

~~~
narrator
Sure, but the people of Berlin do care about the larger context that produces
the creativity. The woman in a bikini didn't generate spontaneously from a
generative adversarial neural net.

She had to have good genetics, not overeat and workout. Thus, there was a
bigger context that created that woman in a bikini picture that is lost by the
algorithm. The algorithm extracts and decontextualizes.

The google algorithm for selecting property is the same. Consume culture,
extract, decontextualize, strip mine all the culture off the top but let other
people nurture it, until they are priced out of the market.

They should set up the next Google headquarters in the middle of the sahara in
shipping containers, preferably one of those places without a lot of sand
that's just flat with gravel in all directions.

Watch all the nerds walk back and forth to their shipping containers while
looking at their cell phones and drinking their soylent unless the company
pays for culture to be brought in.

