
MacBook Pro? No - IcePenguino
http://shahidkamal.com/macbook-pro-no/
======
eecc
I’m also stuck on an old MacBook Pro model. Can’t justify the price but after
some research — namely trying to find an equivalent Lenovo or Hp or whatever —
I reached the conclusion that it’s mostly Intel’s fault.

Let me explain: Intel chipsets don’t support enough lanes to supply USB-c,
GPU, SSD and anything else with no less than 4 of them. The extra “legacy port
breakout” ruins the tally and that’s why Apple dropped it and called itself
“brave”. Any other vendor I’ve seen that sticks with legacy connectors will
gimp one of the other 3 parts; it’s the chipset that ties their hands.

Next is RAM. low power DDR3 only runs up to 16GB and that’s what you get from
Apple. Want more? Nope, Intel chipsets don’t support lp DDR4 so that’s what’s
on the menu. Other vendors will use chipsets to get those 32GB but they’re
power hogs and turn the machine into a skillet.

Apple’s only homemade blunders are the asinine keyboard and the silly half
assed attempt at touch-but-not-screen.

Oh and the stupid obsession with thin, give me back an unibody design without
CD drive and more battery. I’ll be fine rocking 12h on a charge thanks

~~~
brandonmenc
> Apple’s only homemade blunders are the asinine keyboard and the silly half
> assed attempt at touch-but-not-screen.

The keyboard rules. Can confirm. Also some content creation apps I use (ex:
Ableton) are starting to get useful treatment in the Touch Bar.

> Oh and the stupid obsession with thin

The thinner the laptop, the more stuff I can cram in my carry on. ymmv

~~~
AstralStorm
This means you're probably not using the laptop as a workstation. Say,
graphics, CAD, CAM, video or audio authoring.

To do these you might want extra ports for say audio interface, specialized
controller, digitizer... And a video output to present the results perhaps.

Instead you get to carry that and an interface box.

More disk space and RAM are major assets too.

~~~
omnimus
Not that i wouldnt agree with you but when you are doing music production you
will need powered hub anyway. At minimum i plug in mouse, soundcard, midi
controller and most of the time keyboard and midi keys.

This is problem on every laptop since most of them have under 4 usb slots.

------
atmosx
I have the exact opposite experience so far. By all means, this is a
_professional_ laptop in my opinion.

To expand a bit:

\- I love the keyboard, best I've seen on a laptop (I'm a 80+ WPM typist)

\- I don't have issues with the touchbar, getting used to quickly manage apps
like spotify.

\- My default editor is vim and don't have issues with escape

\- Trackpad is the best I've seen on a laptop

\- The machine is fast

\- The screen is amazing

\- Battery life is decent

ps. On the other side, I don't have experience working on a high-end
XPS/Thinkpad, but the main reason to buy is the OS. My workflow and tools are
tailored around the mac. It's not that I can't find my way through Linux or
even a BSD Laptop running i3. It's that I don't want to.

~~~
GordonS
Interesting. The 2017 Macbook Pro is the first Macbook I've ever had, and I
find the keyboard _terrible_. I can't put my finger on it exactly, but I just
struggle to type on it, often finding letters missing from the words I've
typed, and the keys never being where my fingers expect them to be. The key
travel just feels _wrong_ too.

By comparison, I also have a very cheap Asus netbook (13", I think) - it was
about £100 compared to about £3000 for the MBP, and it actually has a better
keyboard!

~~~
jacobolus
How long have you had it? What’s your typing style?

Finding where the key tops are is largely down to familiarity/practice, and
it’s possible your netbook had smaller-than-standard key spacing, which then
might take some time to readjust to the standard key spacing.

I’m sorry Apple made the key tops bigger and the gaps between keys smaller on
this version though, as smaller key tops with wider spaces between tend to
help train your fingers to find the right keys and reduce errors from
accidentally hitting a corner or edge of the neighboring key. The change to
the arrow key layout is IMO a serious regression.

I also think the key travel is a bit too shallow, but after a while most
people can sort of get used to it. The new snappier tactile feedback is pretty
nice. I wish they could figure out a way to make a keyboard with the old
amount of key travel (or even slightly more), very reliable, but with the new
tactile feedback which hearkens back to full-travel clicky switches of the 70s
and 80s.

Many people used to rubber domes and cheap laptop keyboards end up with a
typing style where they really mash the keys down hard into the bottom of the
stroke. This especially comes about when people use the cheapest type of
rubber dome boards (e.g. the ones that came with most PC desktop computers in
the 2000s, including Macs) which need to be pressed all the way down to
actuate, and sometimes actuate unreliably unless the key is pressed very
firmly; using such a keyboard for any extended time ingrains incredibly
damaging habits.

If you try to do a hard mashing style of keypress on a key with extremely
shallow travel and not much cushion at the bottom, you’ll put a sharp impact
on your fingers with every keystroke, and cause quite a bit of strain. It’s
kind of like what happens if someone habitually runs wearing shoes with thick
padded heels, landing on his/her heels with every step, and then switches
overnight to running barefoot on concrete, without changing running form.
Ouch!

If this describes your typing style, try to figure out a way to type with a
lighter springier kind of stroke, ideally with your forearms and palms
floating in the air above the keyboard instead of resting on any surface. Try
to type with just enough force to reliably actuate the key, but not much more.
(Irrespective of which type of keyboard you are using.)

Edit: in response to otempomores’s dead comment: this is not intended as an
apologia (maybe try reading more carefully?). As a long-time keyboard nerd,
I’m just sharing some of my impressions of the changes (positive and
negative), and providing some hopefully helpful additional feedback/advice,
most of which should be broadly applicable beyond this particular keyboard.

~~~
GordonS
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response!

I've had the netbook for 1-2 years, but I only use it one every few months or
so. Still, it's a joy to type on for such a small device.

The Macbook I've only had for 6 months or so, and I only use it once a week or
so (I work mostly on Windows, but need to build iOS apps). I should also have
said it's the 13" version.

TBH, I don't really _want_ to try change my typing style to suit the MBP; that
kind of reminds me of Apple's infamous "your're holding it wrong" response to
users complaining of aerial issues with one of the iPhones from years back :)

I regularly work on quite a few different keyboards (6, I think!) and indeed
have worked on several over the years, but this is the only one I've ever had
any real issue with.

~~~
jacobolus
> _The Macbook I 've only had for 6 months or so, and I only use it once a
> week or so_

The once a week part might make it extra difficult to adjust. I’ve seen
reports from several people who found the new Apple keyboard
uncomfortable/weird for the first few weeks of full time use, but then got
used to it well enough.

Switching between a full-travel desktop keyboard (of whatever type) and a very
low-travel keyboard could be a pretty jarring transition.

Personally I prefer a keyboard with longer travel distance, and generally
despise all laptop keyboards. The new Apple laptop keyboard is for me not
really significantly better or worse than previous Apple laptop keyboards or
than the better PC laptop keyboards. It’s a bit different – a nicer tactile
response, but less travel distance – but for me those are roughly a wash.

Have you considered using an external keyboard with the laptop? I generally
prefer to use an external keyboard if I have any significant amount of typing
to do.

As for “holding it wrong” – many if not most people I have watched type have
quite terrible posture and typing style, which is why so many end up
developing repetitive strain injuries. 40 years ago, typists were likely to go
through serious typing training at a secretarial school, and learn ways of
sitting and typing which tried to accommodate human practice to the shape of
the typewriter so that it was possible to be efficient while not injuring
themselves. Nowadays people tend to learn in an ad-hoc way by just picking up
the device and figuring it out for themselves. I constantly see people sitting
slouched, their arms reached way out in front of their bodies and palms or
forearms resting on the table, with wrists flexed uncomfortably upward, etc.

Most of our furniture (and definitely our computer keyboards!) are not very
well designed for human anatomy. Ideally keyboards would be split into two
pieces, tented upward at the middle, and detached from a display so that the
keyboard part could be kept close to the torso. Each half of the keyboard
would be better designed to put as many buttons as possible within very easy
reach, and aligned with the fingers instead of an arbitrary staggered grid
dictated by the implementation details of 19th century typewriters. The screen
could be placed slightly below eye level, tilted slightly upward, and at least
2.5 or 3 feet away from the face. Logical keyboard layouts would be fixed to
be more efficient and convenient. Etc.

------
lettergram
I recently (well a year ago), switched from using and recommending a MBP to a
Lenovo with Linux.

Buy a $500 ThinkPad T450s - <latest series model> off eBay, replaced it with
new internals. I get 20Gb of RAM, 2x1Tb SSDs, a nice keyboard, a decent track
pad, 10 hours of battery life - total cost: $1300-$1800.

I've done this for myself and three family members and we all couldn't be
happier. I fly a lot and having that battery life is so helpful. I even carry
2x back up batteries, and have ~25 hours of battery life (enough for a whole
trip). Finally, I prefer the 14" body.

I should add I still use a 2015 MBP for work and find it acceptable, I
wouldn't go out and buy a new MBP ever. My co-workers with their USB-C
converters, touch bar(s), and stupidly sized track pad find my 2015 model much
more enjoyable.

~~~
latch
Lenovo has a pretty awful history of security / privacy issues. For me, it
feels like giving them money [1], is saying that I'm ok with that behaviour
(which I'm not)

[1] I know you said you bought off ebay, but I don't think that distinction
matters

~~~
donjoe
Is Apple any better regarding security issues? No doubt they try regarding
privacy - but security? Just to leave a reminder:
[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208315](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT208315)

~~~
latch
A security vulnerability seems like a different ballgame than intentionally
compromising security (aka, installing backdoors). Just one of the Lenovo
incidents: [https://thehackernews.com/2015/02/lenovo-superfish-
malware.h...](https://thehackernews.com/2015/02/lenovo-superfish-malware.html)

~~~
bildung
Again, your link is about consumer devices, not the thinkpad line.

~~~
latch
"Again"? I'm missing a reference to something?

Genuine question, why does the distinction matter?

~~~
bildung
I think the distinction matters because the Thinkpad line gets handled
completely separately from the consumer devices, perhaps because it originally
was a different company (IBM).

The "Again" wasn't meant to be snarky, sorry. Upthread you posted the same
malware point and annother commenter already said that all the adware/malware
stuff was consumer-only.

------
lwansbrough
Yeah I'm pretty sure this Macbook Pro I have from 2014 will be my first and
last. I've loved it, I'd buy it again, if it was the same design with new
specs. I'm not going to downgrade for the same or an increased price tag. And
for what? Shaving 0.3lbs off? Worse battery life? Someone get those noodley
Apple designers some weights to lift. And some brains.

~~~
jacobolus
Carrying around the two laptops, the newer one’s slightly smaller bezel,
significantly thinner case, and weight reduction (overall, it fills 22% less
volume and weighs 13% less) make a pretty big difference in portability,
without the sacrifices that go into the Air laptops.

If you leave it on a desk all day, then it doesn’t really matter, but if
you’re constantly taking it on the go you’ll likely appreciate the change
(even if you don’t think it’s worth the trade-off in keyboard button travel
distance, elimination of some ports, opportunity missed for a larger battery,
etc.).

Personally I wish they had allocated an extra millimeter of depth for the
keyboard.

~~~
ido
Are you carrying two laptops at the same time? I found I've not had too much
trouble carrying my laptop in a backpack since 2008 (when I replaced a beastly
~5kg 15" Acer with a thin 2.5kg 14" Dell Latitude).

That really made a huge difference (the Acer used to give me backaches, as it
also had a much larger power brick) but all the laptops since didn't really
bother me in terms of weight.

~~~
danieldk
_That really made a huge difference (the Acer used to give me backaches, as it
also had a much larger power brick) but all the laptops since didn 't really
bother me in terms of weight._

I cycle to work every day. I found switching from a MacBook 12" (2015) to a
MacBook Pro (2016) a huge downgrade in this respect (the 12" is 0.45 kg
lighter).

If Apple releases a MacBook 12" with at least two USB-C ports and good 4k@60Hz
support, I will probably switch back to the MacBook 12" on the next upgrade.

------
neya
The removal of the Magsafe port alone conveys someone stopped believing in
what they believed in strongly before. [1]

Now that Apple has taken a controversial stance on the design of the newer
Macbooks (no Magsafe, fewer ports, no ESC key, etc.), I think it's going to be
hard for them to fallback to their previous design as that would be an
admittance of their failure. And this alone means to me I wouldn't be buying a
laptop from them for the next couple of years until they admit they screwed
up, or come up with a better solution. This is a classic example of don't fix
something if it ain't broke.

At the same time, I can't imagine myself using a HP or Lenovo either after
being used to the MacOS ecosystem. All one can do is just hope, I guess.

For the record, I own a retina 2014 MacbookPro, and I think it's the perfect
machine for any programmer.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hzseCyqr4s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hzseCyqr4s)

------
suresk
My personal laptop is a 2012 15" Retina MBP, and my work one is a new 15" with
the TouchBar. This is, by far, the longest I've kept a laptop and I'm sorta
dreading having to replace it (it is having some reliability/battery issues
lately) for pretty much the reasons the author described - they match my
experience with the new MBPs.

Admittedly, a lot of the things come down to personal preference. I've met a
lot of people who like the new keyboard (I slightly prefer the old one, but I
hate hate hate the arrow key configuration on the new ones), use the TouchBar
a lot (100% useless and annoying for me), and enjoy the extra space on the new
touchpad (I really dislike how big it is - I accidentally click a lot).

The really worrying thing, though, is how unreliable the new keyboards are,
and how difficult they are to replace. Repairability is pretty terrible with
Apple. I'm not holding my breath for Apple to change any of the design
decisions they've made with the MBP lately, but hopefully they can at least
address reliability issues with the keyboard.

Given all that, plus how unreliable OS X has been for me lately, it is
tempting to consider non-Apple alternatives, but it is hard to say if any of
them are actually going to be any better. Either way, I don't feel the same
about them now as I have from the early 2000s until 2012.

~~~
usaphp
“but I hate hate hate the arrow key configuration on the new ones)”

Not sure why they removed empty space on top of left and right arrows, but
this change had the biggest affect on my performance while writing code, I
used that blank space to navigate my way around the keyboard, now it’s gone I
keep pressing wrong keys. They did the same on the new magic keyboard as well,
I hate the guts of it.

~~~
Corrado
Yes, the new MBP keyboard has the same arrow key layout as the new Apple
wireless keyboard, and I despise it. My fingers are constantly trying, and
failing, to find the proper arrow key to press and I end up having to look at
the keyboard. The only hope is that they change it back in the next version
(along with removing the ridiculous TouchBar), but I'm not holding my breath.

------
ms013
I have to agree - same gripes for me. This MacBook is my 8th Apple laptop
going back to sometime in the late 90s (my first was a pre-PowerPC PowerBook),
and it's the first one where I really and truly have regretted the purchase.
I've usually had a second laptop during that time (ThinkPad usually, Surface
lately), and I've rarely had more nice things to say about the non-Apple
machine until now.

Also, the main selling point of Macs for me since 2001 when I made the big
switch to an Apple-dominant hardware ecosystem was having a Unix-based system
that had a reasonable desktop environment. Lately, the Windows Subsystem for
Linux has been making me question if MacOS and the corresponding hardware is
worth the headache.

------
ksec
I am saddens to see a lot people are saying most of these are minor
annoyances.

People forget, the reason most buy an Apple is attention to details. Quality,
in places where you dont't expect it. We dont expect Apple to be just "good",
we expect "better" or "best". It is a reason why people pay a premium over
others.

Lets skip the discussion of whether the MBP is Pro or not, it is certainly a
top price range premium notebook on the market, you expect these pieces of
equipment to last, not the old golden standard where your 484 could still turn
on, but at least within its warranty period. 2 Years, with AppleCare+. Even
having 1% of your customer coming in within the first 2 year of its usage
because of a faulty keyboard is a design failure. That is 200K Macbook Pro.
And Apple spoke about this, which has less then 5% return rate. 5%? Serious?
Even 0.5% within first year on a Keyboard is wrong.

I know most people love the new Keyboard spacing, and its key stability. But
we have a polarise group of people on Key Depth. Not every body likes to type
on shallow keys, and not everyone can get used to it. I haven't seen anyone
who could type of these new keys would mind if they had more depth, they
wouldn't be bothered. But not vice versa.

Given Intel's new released KabyLake-G, It is likely the new Macbook Pro will
use it, you get similar CPU performance, but 50% better Graphics, along with
support of 64GB Memory ( if Apple Choose to, but my guess they will limit it
to 32GB ).

I really care about any of that. But the keyboard definitely needs some
rethink. Some have suggested Apple regress to old Keyboard. But I disagree,
since we are talking about Apple, I expect them to have a new Keyboard that is
just as thin, gives more depth then even the old keyboard, have ultra high
reliability, and even better key stability. I.e It needs to be better in every
way then this and its previous keyboard design. A Tall order, but that is what
we expect of Apple.

Note: Dell is a maglev keyboard shown with their new XPS 15. Which is suppose
to be everything i described above. Will be waiting to see it it is any good.

------
mrweasel
I think it depends on what your profession is. The article read more like a
list of minor annoyances to me, but I may have a very different usage compared
to the author.

The problem to me is, that if I want to switch from the Mac, I have no where
to go. I have yet to see another laptop in the same build quality or and OS
that just let me do my work to the extend that MacOS does.

Apple is far from perfect, and the Mac is moving in the wrong direction, yet
they are currently still the best offer out there.

~~~
jnsaff2
Also depends on your profession.

I DevOps and was tired of waiting for the new MacBook Pro (I have the 2012 Pro
which is showing its age), so a few months before they released the current
iteration I got the skull canyon nuc and put Linux with i3 on it. It is so
easy to chuck into a bag and carry between work and home (you need monitors,
power and keyboard at both places though). I am so much more productive with
i3 and the only thing that Linux so far does not do for me is Photo
management. So I have dual boot with windows and Lightroom.

Looking at how bad the new macOS is, I feel I made the right decision and
tiling WM is such an incredible productivity/mind clarity boost.

At some point I might get an XPS 15 or similar. But for now this works
perfectly.

~~~
bitL
You can install macOS on your NUC, it works surprisingly well (i.e. 100%). I
have one with i5/16GB and quad-boot Linux Mint/macOS/W7/W10.

------
mosselman
a. Why do people have a need to write blog posts about why they won't buy a
macbook? What do we care? I won't buy most things I see offers for: certain
soda drinks, instant coffee, etc, etc, etc, etc

b. Why do these posts get so high on the HN main page? What is the value? Is
it just nerdy conversation and, in this case, Apple shaming just like we do
with celebrity gossip? Do we feel like giddy children telling stories around
the campfire of fallen giants. That is fine, but why do we need to upvote this
over other, worthwhile, articles? Relax people, a Macbook is just a product
you don't have to buy.

~~~
sumedh
> a Macbook is just a product you don't have to buy.

and you learn these things by reading blogs.

~~~
mosselman
What I mean is that there is a choice to buy certain things. You have free
will don't you?

------
emptybits
I write this as an overall Apple enthusiast. I _used_ to say this every year
but I haven't been able to say it for years: "I want the latest MacBook Pro
because it's the best yet." It's just not anymore. :-(

Have several MacBook Pros. Favourite is still 15" mid-2015 with Iris Pro.
Would buy again.

Previous to 2015, my 2009 and 2011 MacBook Pros are still loved and will
likely receive maintenance and use for years because they have _easy_ to
upgrade RAM, SSD, and a somewhat easily replaced battery.

None of the new offering turns my head, and they wouldn't even if they were
cheaper. So what a perverse trend this is. I think it's truly a design failure
of the entire MacBook Pro product line.

------
simonh
I had no problems loading the site.

The old 15” MacBook Pro design with Iris Pro graphics looks like the best Mac
laptop available right now, unless you cant cope without more graphics
horsepower. For most of the last year I’ve been dithering about getting a new
MacBook, and when I first saw the touchbar models I though that was the design
for me, but I’ve never pulled the trigger. The negative issues individually
wouldn’t be a big deal, so at first I discounted them, but taken altogether
it’s too much. I’ll see what they come up with this year, and if they don’t
address most of these issues I’ll look at getting a previous design machine
second hand.

~~~
killjoywashere
A company I work with wanted me to have a corporate laptop. I said I would
only accept an original 15" rMBP, with keys and magsafe. I waited an extra 6
months until they got one for me. It's used but I don't care. As a vim user
with kids and dogs, the new MBP is dead to me.

Jony Ive needs to get out more.

------
bogomipz
I am a former new MBP owner who concurs with all of this.

I would have actually considered looking past everything in this author's list
with the exception of the keyboard. At first I thought it was just my fingers
adjusting to the new keyboards after years of a previous generation. But after
almost 6 months of not adjusting I gave it up and sold it.

You have to bank pretty hard on the keys and they have this horrible cheap
"plastic-y" feeling to them. The old thick rubber keys were one of the best
parts of the older MBPs.

The new keys give the sensation that they are sticking or perhaps something
has become lodged under them. I found it to be truly a deal-breaker and could
not fathom how Apple thought this was in any way an acceptable experience or
an improvement.

If you are considering buying one I would suggest bringing your old MBP to an
Apple Store and trying them side by side. And then realize that the keyboard
on the new MBP will always feel that awkward.

~~~
mthoms
I felt like this about the keyboard for about 4-5 months. Now that I'm totally
used to it, I prefer it over the old style keyboard.

The old style keyboard now feels mushy and clumsy to me. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

~~~
bogomipz
Interesting, this is close to the amount of time where I decided to throw in
the towel. Do you agree that this seems like a particularly long period of
adjustment? I have been through many new laptop purchases at this point in my
life and I can't ever remember the a period of adjustment longer than say a
week or two tops.

~~~
mthoms
Yes I agree. After a month or so, I wasn't expecting things to change.

Of course, this begs the question - is it actually better or is it just that
I'm accustomed to it now? All I can say is that going back to the old keyboard
feels very wrong.

I'd still prefer to have a real escape key but I've remapped it to CAPS LOCK
and it's good enough.

------
lionradio
In my company all developers work on MBPs and none of them says even a
positive word on the new generation. To add to the article: Ethernet over
USB-C is sluggy at best. We had to change two devices over GPU failures (never
happened before). I found myself playing around with the Surface Book and it
felt like cheating on my wife ... I bought about 100 MacBook Pros for me and
my company and it feels like this is the last generation in use. I still can
remember the joy I felt when I opened my first MBP and I think I will not
forget the disappointment from the current generation.

~~~
CephalopodMD
surface book is bae

------
cygned
I really enjoy mine. In the beginning, I really loved the keyboard, but
recently it caused me trouble; shift key hangs sometimes, my m key feels like
it is stuck and my space bar works only on the left half. Maybe I’d hand it in
for repair. It’s a bit annoying but I can handle it. What frustrates me,
though, is that I cannot connect a second screen without rebooting. Hopefully
a High Sierra and not a hardware issue.

------
plasma
I've been considering buying a new MacBook Pro, but the advice I hear is to
just wait for the next model (in a few months?) and hope that it doesn't have
all its USB ports removed or broken keyboard.

~~~
pavlov
The next model won’t change the port layout or the keyboard. Apple just
doesn’t work like that. A redesign of the MBP isn’t due for years, and no
amount of negative feedback will change that. (Look at the Mac Pro for a
concrete example of this.)

~~~
YetAnotherNick
I get what you are saying, buy Mac Pro is a bad example in this case. I think
it's the only bad example here.

~~~
pavlov
Really? When did Apple turn on a dime to bring out a refresh to a poorly
received model?

The 2002 iMac G4 (the "sunflower") was discontinued in June 2005 without a
replacement in place. It wasn't until the end of the year that Apple brought
out a redesigned iMac. If they could have introduced a new iMac faster, they
certainly would have -- today it's almost inconceivable that they didn't have
a consumer desktop for sale during much of 2005.

------
thepoet
I know it is unfair to compare a laptop with a desktop but this is what I did
based on my specific usage pattern. I upgraded from a 13 inch 2014 Macbook Pro
with 8G RAM to a 27 inch iMac. I am still keeping the Macbook pro for travel,
though I fear the out of warranty costs now that AppleCare is over. I wanted a
faster, powerful machine but did not want to move out of macos with all those
programs and settings from last 4 years. Also, all the other laptops had some
issue or the other be it the low battery life in ultrabooks to the bad
display, weak processors, or build quality issues. The 2017 touchbar MacBook
Pro is the best built laptop one can buy but it looked too expensive to me for
what it offered. I explored building a hackintosh but it seemed maintaining it
was too much pain.

I now use a Samsung T5 external SSD over USB-C as my macos boot drive in the
iMac, which I can unplug and boot with my Macbook when I travel. While being
40% cheaper than the 15 inch macbook in my country, the iMac gives me a faster
processor that does not thermal throttle after 5 minutes of 100% usage, 24 GB
of cheaper RAM (and yes easily upgradable to 64GB), a gorgeous 5k display,
lots of ports, a somewhat better graphics card for the rare gaming and lots of
space to save data files. With some difficulty, you could also replace the
drives and processor.

------
craigc
So strange. I posted this exact site hours ago and now it is on the top of
hacker news. Not sure how that happened since it is the same url. I guess the
algorithm doesn’t like me.

In any case, I have been a Mac user my entire life. I too have one of the 2016
MacBook Pros and I have to say I hate it. I previously owned an iBook, two
PowerBooks, a MacBook Pro, and a MacBook Air. This is by far the worst Apple
laptop I have ever owned. My parents needed a new Mac laptop and I recommended
the 13 inch air cause it is the only usable one in their entire product line
now.

I was thinking of writing a similar post about all the issues I have but the
main thing is the keyboard. What good is a computer that you can’t type on.
One spec of dust or one crumb and your keyboard is done. My space bar
sometimes inserts two spaces and sometimes inserts spaces between letters. My
left command key doesn’t register half the time which is insanely frustrating
since I use keyboard shortcuts for everything. Some days I feel like throwing
it out the window. The sad thing is I actually prefer the FEEL of the keyboard
and the travel to the old one, but the issues with keys not working correctly
are too much to overcome. In addition I have talked to a lot of people who
have a new MacBook Pro and I haven’t found one person who hasn’t had an issue
with the keyboard. I’m honestly shocked there hasn’t been a class action suit
yet. It probably wouldn’t matter anyway cause Apple would just give me a free
can of compressed air and blame me for eating over my keyboard.

I previously had an 11 inch MacBook Air and it was perfect just missing the
Retina display. Apple went ahead and did all this stuff they thought people
would want without understanding that no one cared, and they ruined a
perfectly good product.

~~~
thomasfoster96
> What good is a computer that you can’t type on. One spec of dust or one
> crumb and your keyboard is done. My space bar sometimes inserts two spaces
> and sometimes inserts spaces between letters.

Is there a laptop where this _isn’t_ a problem?

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Anecdotal I know but my wife uses my Thinkpad in the kitchen whilst baking and
it's fine.

------
alt_f4
I completely agree. The post-2015 Macbook Pros are a disaster.

\- The touchbar is a useless gimmick that is outright harmful to developers
like me that use the function keys a lot. I hate that there isn't a 15"
Macbook without a touchbar.

\- The keyboard typing experience is poor and the key mechanism is extremely
fragile, making it super expensive to own and repair

\- Missing useful ports. I like USB-C, but I also like to be able to stick in
a SD card or a USB flash drive without having to buy a dongle. Which, for a
Pro machine that costs as much as this one, I definitely should be able to do.

\- Only 16GB RAM. Ok, I get it, this is Intel's fault due to LPDDR. But is it
Intel's fault that you keep making this PRO machine thinner and the battery
smaller?

\- I'd love to see an OLED display on the Macbook, but I understand that may
not be feasible in the mid-term. So that one is not actually a big issue.

For the rest, that's entirely Apple's poor design. Until that gets fixed, I'm
sticking with my 2012 MBP. And when that breaks, I'll buy a ThinkPad.

~~~
dexterbt1
They're still selling th 15in rMBP w/out touchbar.
[https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-
pro/15-inch](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch)

But then again, this has the same specs as a 2015 machine: with all the
function keys and ports, has an older processor, no discrete graphics, and
starts at a smaller storage 256GB SSD. If only they'll offer one with discrete
GPU.

~~~
alt_f4
I know, I meant up-to-date specs and no touchbar

------
sudhirj
We’ve got a few a part of the upgrade cycle, but so far the keyboard issues
alone have forced a revert to the old rMBPs. Keys just stopped working in the
middle of a production bug, during the holiday season. The new switches make a
pretty presentation, but Apple really needs to understand that as developers
our jobs literally depend on them working well.

------
zkomp
Sad to see Apple drop the ball completely with all the little things.

I've seen issues with the touchbar and keyboard from all my collegues. As a
long time apple user, (since forever, early 90ties) I will never buy one of
these pieces of expensive shit ever. A new design with escape and functional
keyboard is required to get me back...

------
adanto6840
I usually buy a "new" (refurbished via Apple) Macbook Pro every 1-3 years,
typically just before the end of the year.

I've held off the last few years just because my current MBP has been good
enough, the spec bumps haven't been large enough, and because I was unsure
about the new keyboard & the lack of a hardware ESC -- and the dubious value
of the touchbar, though I did find it intriguing to potentially write some
code for it.

I caved and bought one in late November, and just returned in a few weeks ago
-- I'm now typing this from my "new (refurbished) 2015 Macbook Pro (non-
touchbar) that was delivered today. I'm much, much happier.

Perhaps a fluke, but it's the first MBP I've returned out of ~10 that I've
purchased the last 10 years or so. Aside from the ESC key, the keyboard itself
was awful -- the [lack of] key travel was irksome though surmountable by
itself. The arrow keys were almost painful to deal with, but those too may
have been OK in a vacuum. But when a KeyDown on the 'G' key was a dice roll --
40% expected result, one 'G'; 40% two 'G' KeyDowns; and 10% of the time, no
KeyDown at all.

I can't recall the last time I had a computer issue that was anywhere near as
rage-inspiring -- and that, coupled with the already poor keyboard experience
& the already-dubious value adds, was enough for me to return it. I will
perhaps miss the fingerprint reader fluff, but frankly I'm thrilled to be back
on a proven laptop platform again, and it's also great that my existing >10
chargers work for my laptop again, too.

I really, really hope that they have come to their senses & released an
improved MBP in the future -- hell, keep the same form factor and just add
RAM+CPU+GPU, or just let me upgrade RAM+SSD again.

I'll seriously consider a Windows laptop the next time around if there isn't a
semi-decent MBP option at that point -- it's a bummer, too -- but may not be
much choice.

------
jchw
I really enjoyed the Macbook Pro up till about 2014. I have no comments beyond
that because the ones that followed were not interesting and I moved directly
to Thinkpads.

------
geetfun
So I bought a MBP 13 Mid-2017 Non touch bar. The left shift key started
failing about 2 months ago. Went to Apple, and they replaced the key which
seemed to have fixed it. It started failing again this week.

I noticed there's a bit of correlation with how hot the machine is running.
Ironically, I bought this upgrade to my previous MBP (another 13" from 2013)
to run docker better -- but for anyone who runs docker for development knows,
the machine runs hot.

The keyboard isn't so bad once you get used to it (I type fairly fast at
120-150 wpm), but the keyboard reliability issue is really something that bugs
me as it affects productivity. If you're a programmer, needing to train to use
the shift key on the contralateral side is a pain -- especially give all the
muscle memory that's been trained over the years.

------
buildbot
Devils Advocate Response to this:

If the keyboard is failing on a 2016, take advantage of Apple's stores and get
it replaced under warranty and with far less hassle than say, Dell with an XPS
15 and failed motherboard. (From experience with both.)

Battery life is typically quoted at 5 hours doing something relatively
intensive, and 6-7 in general for the 15 inch. 4 hours must be heavy, high CPU
and GPU use. I'm not sure what other pro laptops achieve in this area, but I
doubt it's much higher unless they use the absolute newest GPUs and CPUs. It
is a step back from the 2015 Gen, at least with the 2016s. I think this is
actually partly Intel's fault for not supporting LPDDR4.

Touch bar is eh, maybe not a pro feature, although it seems like it would be
nice for sliders when editing photos? No ESC key can be an issue, although
many "pros" apparently map this to caps lock anyway.

I agree on the trackpad, it's too large.

Ports is a tricky one. No normal USB or Display ports is a giant pain, but 4
Thunderbolt/charging ports is super nice and will attach to some really high
speed, expensive pro stuff. No SD card is perhaps, a missing pro feature. Then
again, the very highest end cameras now use XQD or CFast. And the built in
card reader has never been fast compared to a good external reader. Would a
real pro machine have this port? Probably. Does it make the macbook pro not a
pro machine? Doubtful.

The charging light and other power supply issues are USB-C trade-offs. People
yelled at apple for using a custom, non-accessible port, then got angry when
they used a standard port. I love my magsafe port, but I also like the idea
that I no longer have to but expensive apple power supplies to replace a
failed one.

And on the display and no glowing apple logo, I think they removed the logo
because they couldn't make the display thin enough with it and not comprise
the displays uniformity. And 4k OLED would result in a 3800$ machine with
worst battery life, that's a lot of light to power and pixels to drive...

~~~
pfranz
> Ports is a tricky one.

I agree with you here. I looked around at PC laptops and all of them had a
combination of ports that felt like a compromise.

> The charging light and other power supply issues are USB-C trade-offs.

Personally, I'm bummed the battery indicator lights are gone as well as the
charging indicator. I don't think they had to ditch the charging light because
of USB-C because third parties are doing it[1]. The charging USB-C that ships
with MacBook Pros is already a beefier, more expensive USB-C cable than the
data-only ones.

[1] [https://www.moshi.com/usb-c-charge-cable](https://www.moshi.com/usb-c-
charge-cable)

------
latch
I'm in the same boat with a broken keyboard. Was like that new. Got it
repaired (which involved flying to a different country). Better, but still
happens.

Very frustrated. I was going to get the new XPS 13, but:

\- Isn't available in my country (online store doesn't ship in my country
anyways)

\- Doesn't seem available in Singapore or Malaysia

\- Only 8GB option in Taiwan

\- 16GB option only available with UHD and 1TB SSD in HK (neither of which I
want, nor want to pay for)

All these country-specific sites are awful to use and navigate and digest. If
they can't get this right, I'm thinking the many complaints about the hardware
aren't exaggerated.

So...ya. Still dreaming that Google's Pixelbook will officially support Linux
at some point.

~~~
314
I went the same way. Used to have a MBP that lasted for years (from ~2008).
When it finally imploded I got a MBA. Amazung battery life for my work pattern
(mostly terminals and vim). It would routinely get 12-14hr, although that
would drop to 8-9 if I opened a web-browser and watched video or did anything
js heavy.

Sadly I had to get rid of the MBA and did not like the look pf this year’s
macs, so I got a XPS13. It is a nice machine, but it has issues.

\- Network adaptor is shit. Flakey, loses connection, incompatible with our
cisco routers, power draw is completely unstable.

\- Keyboard is really nice.

\- Screen is a bit dim.

\- Touchopad registers phantom touches constantly, driver support for
elimination doesn’t work.

I’ve still got it running ubuntu 16.04. Everything on it mostly works, but to
be a nice machine:

\- network adaptor needs a complete replacement.

\- get used to disabling the touchpad.

------
nikon
I took my 9 month old 13" Touchbar Pro into Apple last night for the third
time. This time it was a display fault (bottom of screen had horizontal lines
and pink hue when cold) and all 4 USB-C ports were soggy with no hold.

Previously I've had a new logic board after a power fault that took a
authorized repairer to fix as they were the only ones that believed me.

FINALLY I got a full refund. I bought the previous 15" model (which I should
never had sold) with the proceeds in store.

I've never had such an unreliable piece of hardware. Some guy was in store
with a key that was stuck and he was told it would take 5 days to repair.

The relief I felt when the genius said refund said it all.

------
cjsuk
I managed to break my 2013 15” retina MacBook Pro a couple of days ago. It
slid off my lap and down my legs and gently hit the floor from about 6 inches
up. This managed to critically deform the lid and pop the screen. This in
itself is a big WTF.

However, I spent the entire hour following this event being annoyed not
because of what I had done to it but because I wasn’t actually annoyed. I was
annoyed at myself for not being annoyed.

The I realised why: I know there was no path forwards because the current line
is crap. I’ve been putting off thinking about it and dealing with the “what
happens next” question.

What happened next was dragging an old i5 Thinkpad T440 out of the cupboard
and firing windows 10 up on it.

Got to be honest. The keyboard is better, the thing is a ton more productive,
it’s faster (!) to get anywhere and I had forgotten how much stuff I have in
muscle memory which doesn’t require hypermobile fingers doing twisted fucked
up devils chords on different meta keys to run the entire machine off the
keyboard. Plus if you drop it, it still works. The trackpad is crap though
(meh, use a mouse) and the screen is crap (meh).

Turns out the only good bits on the MBP were the screen and the trackpad. The
screen is extremely fragile though.

The whole machine cost less than a recycled screen for a 2013 MBP and gets in
the way less.

------
Bogdanp
I, for one, love my 2016 MBP a year after buying it.

> Typing

I got used to the new keyboard after about a week and going back to my
previous-gen MBP the smaller keys and extra travel just feels awkward. I type
at a speed of about 120WPM, fwiw.

> Touch Bar

Maybe it's because I keep decent posture, but the touch bar is always in sight
for me, and I've learned where all the standard buttons are situated by heart
anyway. Plus, it's neat when apps have touch bar controls.

> Track Pad

Again, switching between the prev-gen MBP and this one the difference is
massive. I never touch the larger track pad accidentally (I'm 6'1" and have
relatively large hands, again, maybe it comes down to posture). He's right
about the shitty cursor keys on the new gen.

> Power supply

Although I miss magsafe, I don't miss the shitty chords they came with (I
think I went through about 10 chargers because I'm prone to moving my laptop
while keeping it charged, and that damages the chord in magsafe chargers). I
much prefer being able to plug the charger anywhere over magsafe, however.

> Battery Life

The battery life is as good or better than my old gen's was when it was new.
Compared to my old gen now, it lasts about 2-3x as long based on the workload.

My only _real_ problem with it is the increasingly shitty software, but the
prev-gen MBP doesn't fix that. :)

------
rexf
The points brought up are mostly valid complaints. Although Apple would never
increase the device thickness to give the user more battery life.

I’m holding off on buying a MBP as the current keyboard has terrible travel
distance and seems to be unusually susceptible to breaking from dust. If Apple
had an updated MBP with a durable keyboard (maybe in a few years? hopefully),
I’d buy it right away.

------
dovdovdov
Apple clearly aimed the new macbook pros at creative professionals (and
wannabe end-consumers), hence the touchbar and the enormous trackpad. They got
rid of the glowing logo to make the screen thinner.

Anyways, Apple could afford to offer the dopest machine for software
developers, without all the shenanigans, but with all the usability and
performance.

~~~
so33
From what I recall, the creative professional market has always been their
intended "Pro" market. It's unfortunate that they are unwilling to offer a
MacBook Pro Developer Edition, but it's not surprising given Apple's history.

~~~
dovdovdov
Hah, this is actually really true.

My Xcode using half is constantly angry with Apple, but my Logic Pro using
half is still in love. :)

------
magicbuzz
Although well-written, I wonder why people buy laptops when they seem
inherently poorly suited for their requirements. Most of the complaints seem
to be things that are obvious. I've been using MBPs since 2000. But 6 months
ago bought a ThinkPad Carbon X1 and lovin' it. Always seems to have battery
all the time.

~~~
latch
Privacy and integrity is important enough for me to hold Lenovo accountable
for their multiple failures by not giving them money.

------
codecamper
Apple hates developers.

Yes, I agree. This keyboard is terrible. J key keeps getting stuck. Pressing a
non-existent ESC key is such a distracting feeling. Lucky I mostly use my Mac
on a Roost with an external (MS) keyboard.

The hoops you used to have to jump through to run an app on device & their
weak / crashing / prone to getting stuck in bad states of early XCodes was
just horrendous.

I don't know about you.. but I'm getting tired of the fake Unix under the
hood. Used to be happy we had unix there... but this version puts files in
various other places. And when something breaks... who knows what it is. I
spent all day yesterday trying to get Safari working. I don't care about
Safari, but it was XCode not letting me test an app on device. (says my device
is untrusted even if I trust it). I noticed Safari also was not loading, so I
figured it must be related. Nope. I'm not sure if Linux has the same problems?

I'm starting to think the actual best way to run MacOS when you need it for
iOS dev is via Linux in a VM. Would this be possible & easy? Are there good
VMs created that'll allow for this??

I'm jealous of my crypto coin cousins that can work on pure code & not worry
about freaking device signing IDs and UI that must work on 37 different
devices.

Another biggie: the App Store's complete lack of regulation over fake reviews.
fakespot.com does a good job at picking up on fake reviews. Apple simply
cannot manage this. Seems like it would be a good way to get started in the AI
era... Apple if you are reading this, buy Fakespot & their talent! I had the
experience of writing an app that worked better & looked better than a
competitor. He took all the downloads because strangely he had several 5 star
reviews every day. I guarantee they were fake. Fakespot.com agrees & yet....
it is 2018 & it goes on to this day.

And one more thing... Auto Layout. Are you freaking kidding me!! Massively
overcomplicated.

One more... App Store Review process!

------
pteredactyl
Touch bar has me seriously questioning my next purchase.

------
ionised
I'm using a work-provided one right now and I absolutely hate the keyboard.

Everything is so cramped and it just feels like typing on a solid piece of
plastic. I ended buying a separate mechanical.

And the Magic Mouse, dear lord. it's the most un-ergonomic mouse I've ever
experienced and that, combined with the inability to disable mouse
acceleration in High Sierra without hiking sensitivity means I'm stuck using
the trackpad, which is fine for basic stuff but it will never beat a mouse for
fluidity, speed and accuracy.

Plus I'm convinced if I continue to use the trackpad I'm going to do some
permanent damage to my hand/wrist. It really isn't comfortable to use for long
periods.

------
stevewillows
With any luck I will die before my late 2013 15" MBP. The cost of the new ones
is criminal, and the reviews are even worse.

I picked up a Toshiba Chromebook 2 and run GalliumOS (a mod of Xubuntu). I use
the former-Chromebook for anything outside of the house -- unless its a
meeting where I will specifically require Creative Suite. It's basically my
'if someone robs me, take this and I won't blink twice' laptop.

With every new MBP released over the past few years, it makes me wonder what
happened to the people who were working in the various design teams during the
Jobs era. I can't imagine that these flaws are the result of a single leader.

------
a_c
I'm on an early 2015 MBP. Probably my last MBP. What recommendations have we?

~~~
tannhaeuser
Dell XPS 13 or 15. Some will recommend ThinkPads, but in a side-by-side
comparison two years ago, the XPS 13 won hands down against the Carbon X1 they
had on display at the shop, for its much better display alone (and it's
cheaper, too). ThinkPads keyboards are held in high esteem, but I found the
XPS keyboard to work better for me. Didn't get a chance to play with the retro
ThinkPads with old-school, non-chiclet keyboards, though. Dell last week
introduced the XPS 13 developer edition with Ubuntu 16.04 preinstalled and
officially supported. That would be the notebook I'd be buying in a heartbeat
if mine stopped working or if I needed 16gb RAM (combination of 16gb and non-
glare screen is only available in EU for now it seems).

~~~
bartread
I have a similar problem to GP. Going to try to make my late 2015 MBP last
another year, but not sure what to do next.

Problem with the Dell XPS is it still only supports 16GB of RAM, which is
getting to be aggravating for me.

The reason I keep buying Macs though is OSX - I just like it. Linux would be a
good fit in many ways, but you can't run Office 365 on it, which is
unfortunately a deal breaker. (I know there are alternatives, but I don't
really like them - the real killer for me is the loss of Excel.)

~~~
tannhaeuser
A friend of mine holds on to an even older MBP. Due to Apple's generous
replacement policy, he's recently got all parts save for the chassis replaced
for free or for relatively little money, so sits in front of a brand-new 2012
MBP.

But surely it would be appreciated if Apple could get over their design
fixation. For me, there's nothing "Pro" with the MBP. "Pro" doesn't mean "bad-
ass", but having (display, keyboard) options for me, a characteristic the MBP
lost years ago when the current MBP line was introduced, with the
design/aesthetics of the unibody chassis only working with a glare screen. The
Touch Bar thingy, and it's mandatory-ness on higher end MBPs is as non-Pro as
it gets. It can't be in Apple's interest that real pro users long for the days
of old MacBooks/PowerBooks/Snow Leopard, can it?

The 16gb limitation is something the MBPs suffer from as well, and is dictated
by Intel chipsets, isn't it?

~~~
bartread
I think you're correct there, although it's very aggravating, regardless of
who's fault it is.

I still have a late 2011 17 inch MBP equipped with quad core i7 and upgraded
to 16GB RAM plus a 1TB SSD. I still use it fairly regularly, in particular for
Ableton Live. It's really the last MBP you could plug enough peripherals into
without needing a separate hub and, key point, still has Firewire, which I
need for my audio interface (USB always sucked for this because it chews CPU,
whereas Firewire doesn't).

Honestly, as a machine to tote around all the time, I prefer the 15 inch form
factor, but the 17-incher is great for working with a lot of tracks
simultaneously, and it has all those wonderful ports:

\- 3 or 4 USB ports \- 1 Firewire port \- 1 Mini display/Thunderbolt port (two
would be nice, but I'll live) \- Line out AND line in (something sadly missing
from newer models) \- Digital audio out and (I believe) in (using same ports
as line out/in)

For the use cases I needed and still need it's a much more useful system than
the current line-up. And, of course, OSX has much more capable audio handling
built in than Windows (no messing around with ASIO, no app exclusivity over
access to audio hardware).

------
Viper007Bond
I recently switched from a MacBook Pro running Boot Camp to a Surface Laptop
(not the Pro aka tablet) and I'm absolutely in love. The battery life is
ridiculous -- a claimed 14 of video playback but even in my real world heavy
usage, I still get about 8. I also never thought I'd find a touchpad as good
as Apple's but I'm actually liking Microsoft's more.

It's a really, really good proper laptop. I think my only complaint is that it
only has one USB port (A-type), but seeing as the only thing I use USB for
anymore is charging my phone, it's not a deal breaker.

------
usaphp
While I agree on most of the topics. Especially on the touchbar(useless crap).
But “make the display a 16” 4K HDR OLED” - why would you need a 4K in a 16”?
It will just eat batter life

~~~
oscilloscope
Viewing and editing 4K video would be a pretty common use case on the largest
MBP.

------
redbluething
I agree with everything in this post. I rarely use my laptop as a laptop.

I stick it on my stand and plug in my Vortex Race3 and wait for Apple to make
a laptop that doesn't suck.

------
kbob
I want an eight pound MacBook. (3.6 kg)

That's enough for an honest 12 hours' battery life, a CPU+chipset that
supports 32 GB of RAM, full-travel, full sized keys, a chassis thick enough to
support all the ports, and an escape key. (And I want it to run OS X.)

Every time Apple moves away from the eight pound point, they compromise
something I care about for something I don't: thinness and lightness.

So let me be perfectly clear: I want it heavy, thick, and powerful.

------
cfontes
I join that pack, the touchpad is specially terrible for debugging and IDEs,
loots of my shortcuts are in that part of the keyboard it's infuriating to use
it.

Have been given that choice a month ago, get one a new MBP or a dell precision
5520 + 32Gb ram with Linux.

Linux was the choosen one, couldn't been happier! In fact all our backend
developers are switching... That must been something right, it was all macs
since since the begging for them.

------
emptybits
If Apple wants to cling to the now-inappropriate "Pro" brand for these
MacBooks then may I suggest they add a new line: maybe, MacBook Ultimate or
MacBook Power or MacBook Unlimited or MacBook Retrogrouch or _something_.
Please make those units thicker for larger battery and replaceable RAM/SSD,
with headphone and SD ports and MagSafe.

Comments here suggest many of us would pay a premium for something like this.

~~~
ak39
Those product delineations exist currently.

Macbook Air has always been touted as " high end specs, flexibility all with
great portability". The Pro was sold as the mobile beast. There's some range
confusion it seems.

~~~
Miredly
There's so much range confusion over at Apple right now it's starting to feel
like the 90's all over again.

Compare the Macbook with the 13" Macbook Pro, there's a ridiculous amount of
overlap there that makes their pricing structure seem ridiculous.

------
desireco42
I agree with everything that is written in this article. Same experience and
same impressions. I have to use new mbp at work. Who would have thought that
too much of track pad can be bad, not me. And how many times I accidentally
pressed stupid touch pad and lowered lighting, thinking that machine is
shutting down on me.

Only thing I didn't have a problem with, battery life. Works fine for me.

------
archagon
Why has Apple not added Pencil support to the extra-large trackpad? Perfect
lateral move and great for so-called professionals. Was eagerly anticipating
cool new hardware features in that vein to justify buying a new laptop; ended
up getting an eGPU for my 2013 MBP instead. And in the meantime, the widely-
acclaimed and perfectly precise Pencil continues to languish. Sigh!

------
lobo_tuerto
I have no complaints about the MacBook Pro I got from Mid 2014. It's been used
with OSX, Ubuntu and now with Manjaro Linux. It's a very solid machine, pretty
awesome hardware.

But since I'm not going back to OSX, if I were to renew my laptop I wouldn't
get one of the MacBook's newest models, I'd just go for a good machine from
Lenovo or something.

------
zegl
My biggest issue with the MPB is that if you accidentally press Option+[Any
touch bar icon] the System Preferences will open.

This happens quite a lot for me on a keyboard with Swedish layout, where it is
easy to accidentally rest my right pinky on the touch bar when when writing
chars such as { and [.

    
    
        * "(" is Option+8
        * "{" is Option+Shift+8

~~~
Veen
I had no idea that alt + Touch Bar opens the display preferences or the sound
preferences. Quite a useful tip!

~~~
mh-
(fyi to those of us holdouts..)

On the older ones with real keys it does the same thing:

alt+volume => opens sound prefs

alt+brightness => display prefs

alt+mission control => ..

alt+keyboard backlight => keyboard

also, unrelated but occasionally useful.. alt+shift allows you to adjust
volume/brightness in fractional increments.

------
miles
Site appears unresponsive. Google's cached text-only version:

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AvJdZ_u...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AvJdZ_u5PMEJ:shahidkamal.com/macbook-
pro-no/&num=1&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1&vwsrc=0)

~~~
checker659
Loaded just fine for me (I'm in Asia though)

------
martind81
I've just had my keyboard serviced a couple weeks ago because of the sticky
keys issue.

So I reluctantly bought a keypad cover. I normally hate covers. But weirdly I
like this one; it's very thin, perfectly adjusted and it almost improves the
touch. And it's almost invisible. I really like it and it makes me feel way
safer.

~~~
martind81
For those interested, this is the cover I got: UPPERCASE GhostCover Premium
Ultra Thin Keyboard Protector for MacBook Pro with Touch Bar 13" or 15" (2016
and 2017, Apple Model Number A1706, A1707)
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MRKLH27?ref=yo_pop_ma_swf](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MRKLH27?ref=yo_pop_ma_swf)

------
dev_throw
Been using an MBP for the past 3 years and looking to try a non AAPL machine
for my dev work. What hardware is the most similar/superior to an MBP > 2015?
I will be running a Linux distro. I have heard good things about the ZenBook,
but I am wondering if there are any better options.

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NegativeLatency
Couldn't get the page to load.

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://shahidkamal.com/macbook-
pro-no/)

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noncoml
My only complaint is the lack of Escape key, but maybe Apple didn’t have touch
typists in mind.

~~~
tannhaeuser
Yeah this is what killed the MacBook/Pro as a touch typist and vi user for me.
Plus, the extreme low travel of the keys. Went with an XPS 13 instead, which I
can fully recommend. The keyboard, in particular, works really well for me.

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vijay_n
Obviously no to the Macbook Pro 2017(13inch without touch bar), indeed having
a poor battery life, hardly getting 6 hours, Sametime my MacBook pro Early
2015 is still getting 9hours of backup. Overall the quality of Apple products
seems to be degrading.

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atsjie
I'm using my MacBook Pro with an external mouse, keyboard and screen both at
the office and at home. Haven't opened it in months now. Perhaps Apple had
that in mind when they thought of adding "Pro(fessional)" to their MacBook?

No complaints here!

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taternuts
This bums me out so much. I really, really love my 2015 MBP and 2013 MBAir and
I'm afraid they were some of the last good releases. I hope apple can get
their shit together before I'm in the market to get a new laptop.

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pawelkomarnicki
Another "it's not what I'm used to, so it's trash" post ;-)

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walkingolof
An honest question, how many developers really need a laptop ?

I thought a did but have since some time now a very good desktop (paid around
3k for 16 core machine with 64 GB memory) and a light travel laptop with
excellent battery.

This combo works very well.

~~~
seltzered_
Depends on your routine, and how much your development time intermingles with
design, gaming, or being with slow/no internet.

I've tried to talk myself into a desktop & light laptop setup for years and
everytime it's just felt easier to not think about syncing files across
machines or whether the light travel laptop is going to be good enough for
writing native code (i.e. compile times) or creative work (sitting here with
ffmpeg spinning fans right now, and used Adobe's suite most of today around
town).

How many developers need a desktop when there's cloud computing for heavy
lifting?

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RickJWagner
I bought my wife a MacBook Pro for a gift about a year ago. Apple recently
pushed a software update which broke her wireless connectivity.

She's been on the phone with Apple support numerous times-- no help at all.

So disappointed in Apple. Beware!

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foobaw
These arguments are made for cell phones all the time too. The consensus is
that it's impossible to please everyone.

At least for phones, and this might be similar to laptops, we made decisions
on everything based on intensive research, usability testing, and
profitability. Companies can't simply cater to specific demographics and hope
for the best. For example, the keyboard quality on the MBP could be a valid
concern for some, but it's possible that it was a justifiable solution for
them based on cost-reduction. (a worthy-risk, in their opinion. not mine,
IMHO). It could be that the keyboard is perfectly fine for most people.

Finding a delicate balance between every factor is a tough challenge, and I
know for a fact that following every advice on the internet is not a solution.

~~~
maaaats
Do you think the user research said to design a keyboard that has buttons that
randomly doublepress?

It's not just the author, everyone in my team with the new MacBook have the
same issue with some buttons.

~~~
foobaw
I slightly edited my comment. It's a valid claim and I totally agree that the
keyboard is atrocious for me as well.

But products aren't just made overnight. I can almost certainly guarantee that
these issues came up before release, but they decided that the cost to fix it
wasn't justifiable enough. I personally see a lot of problems with that but
I'm just letting you know from my experience working at an OEM, Google, and a
huge Electronics company.

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keymone
meh.. we've heard all this many times, most comes down to personal preference.
the only point i can relate to is that i don't feel like touchbar is very
useful. otherwise imo it's still the best laptop on the market hardware-wise
(and software but that's a very different debate).

the main question for me is why on earth are you buying macbook pro if you
think it's shit? it's not like you can't go to apple store and try a keyboard
or notice the lack of escape key or the size of arrow keys? it's really
puzzling.

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solatic
Why can't Apple make a MacBook Work machine? Design a keyboard with Cherry ML
switches, large battery, no compromises on ports, 5 pound weight ceiling.
Something that feels more blue-collar.

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rfolstad
i'm on a 2013 mac book pro retina and see no reason to upgrade to the latest
model. If it died tomorrow i'd look for a refurbed 2015 model.

Mostly i blame intel for not releasing mobile chipsets capable of more than
16GB of ram but apple is also to blame for allowing this.

My next purchase will hopefully be a amd ryzen based laptop with 64GB of ram
running linux in 2018 pls.

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kensai
Has anyone tried the Eve V?

([https://eve-tech.com](https://eve-tech.com))

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dman
For those looking for an alternative - look at the Dell 5520, am really happy
with this machine.

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cafebeen
I find the current MBP makes a lot more sense if you mentally substitute
“deluxe” for “pro”.

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bluedonuts
I was kinda onboard untill “bring the lit Apple logo back”. What’s
professional about that?

~~~
cjsuk
Starbucks street cred.

It annoys me that mine lights up like a Christmas tree.

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dmitriid
“Pro”. People should really start using quotes when saying “Macbook ‘Pro’” or
omit “Pro” entirely.

A good article about the Macbooks is “The Best Laptop Ever Made”
[https://marco.org/2017/11/14/best-laptop-
ever](https://marco.org/2017/11/14/best-laptop-ever)

~~~
stanislavb
I absolutely agree. I have the 2015 15' MacBook Pro and is so much better than
the newer "pro" (touchbar) laptop I use at work.

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simonebrunozzi
So, what's the alternative? Razer blade? Can we use Windows 10 and be happy?

~~~
hungerstrike
I've been doing Node.js, Postgres, Redis, React.js, Angular, Ruby, Python and
pretty much anything that else that I've wanted to do on Windows for over a
decade.

IMO and in my experience, if you can't be happy with Windows and make it work
for you then you're probably too picky and/or biased.

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sluggg
oh god I feel you on the keyboard. After using the gen of mbr for ~8 months, a
few keys have begun to fail. They require a double tap to fire properly. VERY
FRUSTRATING.

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djaychela
I've recently bought my first MBP, and I agree with some of the points on
here, but not all of them.

The main thing I would agree with is the cursor keys - despite having spent a
couple of months with mine, the up/down cursor keys (which I use a lot) aren't
good - full size ones would have been better, IMO, but they of course would
ruin the look.

2 Thunderbolt ports isn't enough - I think there should be a couple of USB
ports. I've not missed the SD card slot, but then I'm not a photographer, but
a lot of MBP users are; having to have a dongle all the time for these would
be a real pain. With my Cubase dongle and iLok, I can't charge the macbook
without a hub, and that's not very good.

The loss of Magsafe is also a bad idea; previously I had a macbook air (I
bought it cheap as a test to see if I wanted to go all in on a MBP for my next
laptop), which had it, and it saved it a couple of times when the kids weren't
careful. So much so that I've bought a USB-C 'magsafe' adapter which I
generally leave plugged into the side now.

I find the keyboard to be good, though; I actually got a 20 minute go on a
student's new MBP to see if I'd get on with the keyboard as I was sceptical
about it; it's much better than I thought it would be, although I don't like
the sound - it's quite loud (or maybe I'm heavy-handed). Hopefully the
reliability will be better than the OP's.

A lot of the other issues mentioned are things that were generally known as
soon as the models were announced, though? Lack of a physical esc key, etc...
and indeed some of the things that I'm not so keen on above are things I was
aware of before buying; only the cursor keys and keyboard noise weren't. The
things mentioned above were all compromises I took when purchasing, but maybe
that's the poster's point - that a 'Pro' machine shouldn't have such
compromises, particularly when they don't mean anything is sacficed other than
a clean look or a mm off the height/200g off the weight?

There are a lot of positives from the MBP though - the build quality is miles
ahead of everything else I've ever owned, and the screen is fantastic; I have
taken to using the MBP for screenshots for the book (using Cubase) that I've
written as nearly every bit of text looks better than it does on Windows. I've
not found the battery life to be as bad as mentioned in the article, but I
know this is strongly dependent on usage, and I've spent the majority of my
time on mine learning Python, but when I've used Cubase it's not been as good,
but not as bad as in the article.

I did spend a lot of time looking at what else I could buy for similar money,
but I wasn't sure I'd have the longevity from any other brand; most of my PC
laptops have lasted about 18 months before hardware failure (this is averaged
over the last 15 years) - with only one exception, the last one which managed
4 years. I've bought the MBP as an investment due to being made largely
redundant and wanting to spend a couple of years learning new skills to
hopefully move towards a career in programming; I didn't want (and couldn't
afford) a computer that would die in 18 months' time, and generally Macbooks
seem to be long-lived (and have good residuals after 5 years).

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hungerstrike
I'd never pay for new Apple equipment because buying used/refurbished is so
much more economical.

This summer I got a used 2015 MBP for $1,050 from Amazon (and it still has
AppleCare until September 2018!) Last summer, I got a used Mac Pro 2012 for
around the same price. Both are running flawlessly right now. I wouldn't have
bought the MBP without the AppleCare and I'm glad I didn't because the battery
stopped charging past 40% after 6 months and Apple had to replace it with a
new one. I could probably still sell this machine for > $1,000.

