
Stopping All Stations – The Pyongyang Metro - jpatokal
http://www.earthnutshell.com/stopping-all-stations-the-pyongyang-metro/
======
tobbyb
Surreal and intriguing. There is a palpable sense of fear and unease on
people's faces, not a smile to be seen. A gloomy insight into a whole other
world. And questions assumptions about human behavior.

Its frightening to think how easy it is to suppress a whole population for
years and decades on end. The romantic image of courage, revolution and human
freedom comes to naught here. Status quo, acceptance and survival seems to be
the more natural human state.

There is the natural reluctance to put one's head above. And for good reason,
anyone foolish or brave enough to put their head above in this all knowing
state will be put down swiftly, and perhaps brutally to be made an example of.
How does change happen here?

Organizing anything in this state of pervasive surveillance is nearly
impossible and should be a wake up call for those sleepwalking into one.

The only way we know from history is implosion of the prevailing power center
or outside support motivated more by massive self interests than human freedom
or kindness, compromising the road ahead.

Surveillance, secret courts and dubious processes are meekly accepted but
change can become very difficult once these infrastructures are put in place,
operational and at the complete discretion of whoever happens to be in power.
A warning for all of us.

~~~
rdtsc
It could be cultural as well. I remember showing pictures of my childhood in
Soviet Union to people in America and they'd comment how gloomy and sad
everyone looked -- even at birthday parties. The thing is we weren't gloomy
and sad (well not all the time even though we were poor). We just didn't smile
in pictures. So not saying people are not scared and oppressed there. We know
they are. But some of the reactions could be cultural as well not all due
oppression.

~~~
silencio
Maybe there's an old shared South and North Korean cultural thing going on? I
am American born Korean and I always forget not to smile. Every Korean wedding
photo I'm in I'm smiling while everyone else looks somber even if I know
they're super happy. My own wedding photos have my relatives struggling to
smile. Lovely mix of photos. :p

~~~
crdoconnor
South Koreans do the mass crying thing as well (e.g. Park Chung Hee's death)

------
reuven
I'm always fascinated to read about North Korea. I feel so incredibly bad for
the people who live there, who either know how bad things are (and can't do
anything about it) or don't know (and thus don't care). In some ways, the
latter group is probably better off.

(A great book: Nothing to Envy, by Barbara Demick, about life in North Korea
and what it's like to escape to the West.)

It's amazing to see what North Korea will do to keep its own citizens in the
dark, and to try to make things look amazing to foreigners -- only to fail
spectacularly.

The attempts to erase traces of the metro cars' German origins reminds me of
the department stores I've read about in Pyongyang, in which people enter and
exit without buying anything, only to return minutes later, in order to give
foreigners the illusion of a great commercial success.

All countries engage in propaganda and patriotism to some degree, but North
Korea really takes the cake here. I hope that its citizens will one day be
able to gain more freedom and financial security, but that somehow seems
unlikely in the near future.

~~~
Cyph0n
> in which people enter and exit without buying anything, only to return
> minutes later, in order to give foreigners the illusion of a great
> commercial success

I don't get it. Foreigners see success in people who don't buy anything?

~~~
reuven
No, the story that I read indicated that the North Koreans brought Western
visitors to a department store, to demonstrate how great North Korea's economy
was.

This Western visitor noticed that after people exited the store, they
immediately entered again, to give an illusion of a busy store -- when in
fact, nothing was actually being purchased.

(I can't remember if the shoppers were using money or taking things out of the
store, but I have to assume that they were. I wish that I could find this
story, which was quite fascinating.)

My point is that the North Korean government was so inept at propaganda that
their attempts to demonstrate economic stability and power were laughably
transparent.

~~~
Cyph0n
I understand, that makes sense. What a clearly stupid decision on the
government's part. It would have been much better if the stores were simply
empty. Thanks for clarifying.

~~~
EStudley
In a similar vein, there's pictures online of a "computer lab" in North Korea
shown to visitors. There's people typing away at computers, which is seemingly
normal, until you realize none of the computer have electricity.

------
LaFolle
In metro, no one (if not many) is carrying cell phones! That is (just one of)
something our eyes are not used to. (In Singapore, nearly every one in metro
is hooked to their phones)

This is too much: "North Korea doesn’t use the traditional Gregorian calendar,
they use the ‘Juche’ calendar, beginning on the date of Kim Il-Sung’s birth,
Juche 1. "

~~~
peferron
I found the calendar thing funny too. Then I remembered we're all counting
from the birth of Jesus.

~~~
mcphage
> we're all counting from the birth of Jesus

At some point people realized they got the year wrong for Jesus's supposed
birth. But the reaction was, "eh, fuck it", so our calendar isn't really based
even on that anymore.

~~~
emodendroket
I mean, we still call it "the year of our Lord."

FWIW Japan uses, in parallel, the Western system, but also a system where the
years are counted from the beginning of the reign of the current emperor.

~~~
nommm-nommm
>I mean, we still call it "the year of our Lord."

BC/AD is deprecated for non-religious uses.

The international standard is CE/BCE for common era/before common era.

~~~
takno
I've always found this odd. Declaring the last 2000 years the "Christian Era"
seems much more offensive than a couple of letter standing for some fairly
arbitrary latin. Added to which, even in countries which could be described as
being in a Christian era, it just didn't get going for a couple of hundred
years after 0AD

~~~
Mikeb85
BCE/CE stands for Before Common Era/Common Era.

~~~
jff
What makes it so Common? What great event occurred on the year 1 CE that we
decided we should start marking our years from that point? Ovid writing
"Metamorphoses"?

~~~
mcphage
> What great event occurred on the year 1 CE that we decided we should start
> marking our years from that point?

Absolutely nothing. You need to have a starting point, and for historical
reasons we ended up with that one. It isn't a meaningful date for anybody, but
it turns out having a common reference point is more important than having a
significant reference point, so nobody cares.

~~~
jff
> It isn't a meaningful date for anybody

It's actually a very meaningful date to a lot of people on this planet,
although I'm not one of them.

We used to refer to years past that date using a short phrase in a dead
language. However, this short phrase in a dead language referred to a
religious figure, which is Not OK. So we decided we'd rename it "Common Era"
but keep the numbers the same because that would be a big hassle. As a result,
our calendar still counts how many years have passed since the alleged birth
of Christ, but because people might be offended by the words "Anno Domini"
we've called it something different.

If I were in the position to pick a new calendar start date, I'd probably just
go with the Unix Epoch... AE, Anno Epocha? We'd now be in the year 46AE :)

~~~
galdosdi
mcphage may have meant that it isn't a meaningful date for anybody, because we
now know that 1 AD is probably at least several years off from the birth of
Jesus Christ.

~~~
emodendroket
I always hear people make this claim, but on what evidence do we "know" that?
There is no contemporaneous source talking about him while he's alive; the
earliest we've got is Mark which was probably written around 60 or 70.

~~~
galdosdi
Conversely, I always hear the claim that Jesus was born on 1 AD, but on what
evidence do we know that? Some random monks in the dark ages tried to guess so
they could make a calendar, and that's the guess they came up with.

While the modern estimate certainly has uncertainty too (how could we ever
_know_ such a thing with complete certainty?), there's no way it's _less_
accurate than the original estimate made by some random monk in the middle
ages, working with much less data. It does not make sense to privilege that
random monk's guesses over today's guesses.

According to Wikipedia, there's two different methods -- written Roman records
of Herod as mcphage mentions, or using written Roman records of Pilate's
crucifixion and subtracting the claimed age of Jesus at that time. Both
methods give years that are in the same ballpark, roughly 4 to 6 BC, which
should give confidence that they are close. No method gives an answer of
around 1 AD. (Actually, it's pretty impressive that some monks working
hundreds of years later in the dark ages are no more than a few years off from
today's best estimates)

~~~
emodendroket
The Wikipedia page on this topic also mentions trying to work backward from
the reference to Jesus being "about 30 years old" during his ministry, which
could point to about 1. So really I don't think anyone knows for sure.

~~~
galdosdi
Yes, so the point is at best, there's no reason to privilege any particular
one of these guesses, whether 4 or 5 or 1 or whatever. We just don't know,
ergo the AD/BC date system does _not_ center about a date that has much
meaning for anyone, which was the O/P's point

~~~
emodendroket
Well... except it was explicitly chosen because it was a guess at the birth of
Jesus. That has meaning even if the guess may be off.

------
crispyambulance
As awful as North Korea is, I am _really_ impressed at the cleanliness of the
subway station in the photos.

Not a scrap of litter, no graffiti, no sketchy people and probably doesn't
even smell like piss. Floors are obviously meticulously scrubbed.

Kudos to North Korea! (OK, I know its an oppressive hellhole, but goddamn the
subways are clean).

Meanwhile, in NYC, we have viral video of a rat dragging Pizza down stairs in
a subway.

~~~
jhbadger
This was also true in the not quite as oppressive (but still oppressive by
Western standards) Eastern European dictatorships pre-1989. It's from a
combination of reasons -- fear that graffiti/litter would get you in trouble
and the fact that in order to approach full employment, many more people were
involved in cleaning than under capitalism.

~~~
emodendroket
Higher employment achieved by keeping public services at a higher standard
doesn't sound like such a horrible idea to borrow from those regimes.

~~~
jonknee
It's not affordable unless you're an oppressive totalitarian regime.

~~~
emodendroket
[Citation needed]

~~~
jonknee
We're already running huge deficits... No citation is needed to understand
that hiring a massive number of people to pick up litter is unaffordable.

~~~
Mikeb85
> We're already running huge deficits...

In large part due to massive governmental inefficiencies, massive defence
spending, and because the richest individuals and corporations hardly pay any
tax on their (real) earnings...

------
have_faith
It's difficult to imagine what your worldview would be like growing up around
such a high level of propaganda from a young age. Every piece of visual media
you have ever encountered trying to subvert your view of the world. (I guess
not too dissimilar to our own lives, on a smaller scale of course).

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
It's true of every society to some extent. The West's less overt tactics are
arguably more effective than Soviet-style propaganda because they're less
obvious.

~~~
sangnoir
> The West's less overt tactics are arguably more effective than Soviet-style
> propaganda because they're less obvious.

America has pretty overt propaganda, e.g. the Pentagon paying the NFL millions
to 'salute the troops'.

As a non-American, seeing young children reciting the pledge of allegiance in
unison is downright creepy. I'm guessing Americans do not have alternative
experiences and hence consider it to be normal. I'm guessing the same applies
to Koreans growing up in Korea: it's normal. I'm not suggesting the levels of
propaganda are in the same ball-park.

~~~
nommm-nommm
As an American I find schoolchildren reciting the pledge of allegiance in the
morning very disturbing. Especially ones who are much to young to actually
understand what they are saying.

And it always happened in every primary school I went to.

~~~
0xfeba
To add to the creepiness, when a child sits for the pledge (legal, AFAIK) and
is punished. Add the comments from supposedly rational adults on the local
news article about it... and you see some people really take forced patriotism
seriously.

~~~
nommm-nommm
Nobody can be forced to stand for the pledge or recite it. (West Virginia
State Board of Education v. Barnette[1]) however uninformed school board may
illegally punish students anyway or become vindictive in other ways. By not
standing for the pledge a kid risks being seen as a troublemaker or
"difficult" which can cloud a teacher's judgements in other matters. Making it
part of the school day makes no sense for just that reason. Certain religious
groups (ex Jehovah's Witnesses) are against pledging allegiance to a flag and
it's unfair to put a student in that situation for something so silly as the
pledge of allegiance. But as you said some people feel very strongly about
this sort of fake and forced ritual.

I have a big problem with teaching it to very young kids who don't really
don't have the capacity yet to really understand what it means or what they
are pledging to. Most kids kinda slur their way through it because it contains
vocabulary that the typical 5 year old wouldn't have. [2]

[1] "The case is made difficult not because the principles of its decision are
obscure but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the
limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually
and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social
organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic
ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to
make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds.
We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that
we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and
abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as
those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is
not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of
freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that
touch the heart of the existing order.

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no
official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics,
nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to
confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances
which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us."

[2] I used to say "I pledge OF allegiance to the flag....under god,
invisible..."

------
TazeTSchnitzel
If the train carriages look familiar to anyone who's seen the German
Democratic Republic's carriages, that's because they're the very same ones.
The DPRK took some of the GDR's old U-Bahn trains.

~~~
iSnow
Actually, North Korea bought subway train carriages that were in use in
western berlin as well. I recognize those in the pictures - during my time in
university, I used them all the time - in west berlin.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Yeah, there's both former West and East Berlin trains:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyongyang_Metro#Rolling_stock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyongyang_Metro#Rolling_stock)

Which makes sense given they would both run on the same kind of track.

------
icebraining
_Considering the misspelling, I thought I could find the source of the photo
on the internet. I came up with no results._

Google gets us closer, though despite the watermark, I'm not sure the People's
Daily have a photojournalist in the US:
[http://images.blogchina.com/artpic_upload/n/m/g/nmghongjing/...](http://images.blogchina.com/artpic_upload/n/m/g/nmghongjing/3131416969935.jpg)

------
MelmanGI
There's also this article of the same series on playing golf on North Korea's
single golf course which I found even more interesting:

[http://www.earthnutshell.com/out-of-bounds-in-north-korea-
py...](http://www.earthnutshell.com/out-of-bounds-in-north-korea-pyongyang-
golf-course/)

------
abrowne
The mosaics give it an oddly (ancient) Roman feel, which led me to wonder what
a metro system built by the Romans would look like . . .

------
dblooman
I wonder if we "took out" the leadership, how long we would leave things as
they are to allow people to adjust. How much of shock would it be to tell
people they can go and visit any country, call anyone, learn about other
cultures without fear of arrest

~~~
venomsnake
When the Berlin wall fell - the economic collapse of Eastern Europe was total
for a decade. Leave vacuum at the top - and ordinary North Koreans will be
even worse. Look at the paradise that is Iraq.

The only semi-successful country that avoided total pain was East Germany -
and it was because of the unification.

~~~
avar

        > Look at the paradise that is Iraq.
    

Iraq was held together by a strongman of one of two secterian factions on the
country, who when the country collapsed went right back to killing each other.

I don't think any such analogous situation exists in North Korea, it would be
much more like East Germany, the economy would be horrible for decades, but I
doubt it would come to perpetual civil war like Iraq.

------
maxaf
Pyongyang's metro would make a great setting for that hypothetical "Koreans
invade Moscow" movie that no one seems to be filming.

~~~
icebraining
Kim Jong-il might have:
[http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31628415](http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31628415)

------
hugozap
What if every time a tourist group visits N.K thousands of people are alerted
and they play their assigned roles (like Truman show). And when the tourists
left, they go back to their reality.

/removes tin foil hat

------
k-mcgrady
Weird. I submitted the same post yesterday (links are identical). How was it
able to get submitted again?

NB: I'm glad it did because mine didn't get any upvotes and I was sure people
here would enjoy it.

~~~
jakub_g
HN changed their algorithms in recent months to allow resubmissions if
original one didn't get traction

~~~
k-mcgrady
That's great, glad they made that change.

------
tempodox
This looks like a place of lies, indoctrination and personality cult. Had it
been kept shut to outside visitors, I wouldn't have missed much. North Korea
seems to be a living nightmare.

~~~
pizza234
I could mention a few (few?) wars caused by western countries' lies and
indoctrination.

Personality cult, definitely, although that's the part of the propaganda
style.

~~~
JBReefer
Please don't use whataboutism, it lowers the standard of conversation, and it
assumes all commenters are American.

------
komaromy
> due to a major accident that occurred attempting to extend the Metro under
> the Taedong River in 1971 killing at least one hundred workers

This sounds like a horrifying way to go.

------
golergka
That's so similar to Moscow, it's uncanny.

------
Overtonwindow
This is absolutely incredible. From my reading in other travel diaries to
North Korea, I sense that all of this is staged.

------
kafkaesq
It's kind of refreshing to see all these metro stations free of (commercial)
advertisements, actually.

------
cfontes
As always very interesting to learn more about a place so bizarre and closed.

------
yarou
I'm struck by how hopeless the average person appears to be in these pictures.
You can see only sadness and despair in their eyes, it is truly quite tragic.

~~~
partisan
I was on the train in NYC yesterday and there was only sadness and despair in
the eyes of the passengers. Some looked hostile and others completely
apathetic. I am sure I could have died there and no one would have even looked
in my direction. Dirt covered every area of the car; neglect and laziness or
just budget cuts. The smell ran sour, never sweet, due to the miles of
stagnant water, mold, dead things, garbage, and human stench. The train made
several stops on it's transit between two stations, a stretch that could take
anywhere between 10 and 20 minutes depending on the day. People pushed their
way through to get onto the cars, no artwork was present save for the
advertisements and the countless notices asking for you to be polite to your
fellow riders. Over the PA system, a soulless voice once again reminded that
one should avoid displaying their electronics, this to lower the risk of being
robbed. Once out of the subway, I was greeted by a dead rat in a rat trap as a
reminder of what we all are. I did this all in reverse on the way home.

~~~
bm1362
Indeed, the subway is a soulless place -- often romanticized by media and
visitors to NYC. It still gets the job done though.

~~~
partisan
I am a native New Yorker and have taken the subway since the late eighties for
middle school, high school, college, work, fun, etc. It has tremendous value,
for sure, but it's no source of happiness or joy to go down into that hole.

