
San Diego Struggles to Keep Its Young Tech Talent - HillaryBriss
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/15/us/california-today-techies-san-diego-bay-area.html
======
mapgrep
I grew up in San Diego before spending 20 years in the Bay Area. While I
totally understand why a fresh graduate would want to head north to the bay, I
think as a place to CREATE a startup, San Diego has tremendous potential.

The weather is beautiful and actually beats SF. It's close to 70 year round,
nice and dry, with great beaches and mountain and desert hiking. As the
article notes downtown has been evolving in a really promising direction, to
say nothing of classic beach spots like Del Mar, La Jolla, Pacific Beach, etc.
For getaways there is LA, Mexico, skiing at Big Bear.

The computer science program at UCSD is typically ranked about 15th globally,
CalTech is not terribly far north, nor is UCLA and UC Irvine and UCSB and UC
Riverside, and SDSU, though it has a reputation as a party school, is no
slouch.

Meanwhile the housing is still affordable compared to the Bay Area, if not
cheap on a national basis. And the Valley is an hourlong Southwest flight
away.

More important there is a real diversity of industry still in San Diego, with
lots of biotech, defense (contracting and the actual Navy), aerospace, and
health.

Thirty years ago, the Bay Area/Valley had a very San Diego feel to it. Easy to
forget now, but it was a pretty laid back place where an ordinary person could
buy a nice spread in the suburbs and where starting a business in your garage
was a reasonable thing to attempt in a borderline casual way. You get the
impression people smoked a lot of pot and spent a lot of time relaxing,
whether in hot tubs or on hiking trails or wherever. It was a California
lifestyle. The Bay Area feels like New York now, except with tech and better
weather — just very intense. San Diego still feels like California.

I'm not saying it'll ever match the Bay Area/Valley as a tech hub; the lead in
Northern California is too great. But San Diego should be at or near the top
of the list of secondary hubs, in my biased opinion.

~~~
RCortex
> Meanwhile the housing is still affordable compared to the Bay Area, if not
> cheap on a national basis. And the Valley is an hourlong Southwest flight
> away.

I see lots of >$1 million homes and >$1500/month rents for apartments, in the
suburbs. Do you have any specific areas in mind? I'm thinking about moving.

~~~
roadnottaken
In north county, places like Rancho Penasquitos (92129) have great schools and
you can find decent single-family homes in the low $600's these days. It's
about 15 minutes from the coast without traffic -- 25 mins from downtown.
Nearby areas like Mira Mesa and Clairemont are cheaper but the public schools
aren't as good.

~~~
monkmartinez
$600,000 is affordable? How about smart? I don't mean to chide, but $600,000
for a cookie cutter tract-home is down right absurd. California is nuts.

~~~
fossuser
The comparison is 2million in Palo Alto for an attached townhouse ~2200sqft.
You might be able to get an 800k house in a bad neighborhood (east palo alto)
that's 1100 sqft.

Friend in Buffalo is buying a house for 120k, difference is extreme.

~~~
leesalminen
> Friend in Buffalo is buying a house for 120k, difference is extreme.

Buffalo is an extreme example, both nationally and inside Buffalo itself. The
most expensive single family homes in the city are ~$1.5MM [0]. These are
mansions built in the early 1900s right on a beautiful park. Alternatively,
you can buy an almost condemned house in a bad neighborhood for ~$5,000 [1].
People actually live in those places.

[0] [http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/82-Meadow-Rd-Buffalo-
NY-14...](http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/82-Meadow-Rd-Buffalo-NY-14216/)

[1] [http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-
detail/647-Norfolk...](http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-
detail/647-Norfolk-Ave_Buffalo_NY_14215_M46166-25420?row=4)

------
roadnottaken
I can see the appeal of places like SF and NYC for 20-somethings, but I'm in
my mid-30s with 2 kids and in San Diego I can afford a nice single-family
house in the suburbs with good public schools and (relatively) affordable
daycare. When I hear about the crowding and cost of living in places like
SF/Boston/NYC it makes me shudder. I love it here, but I work in La Jolla not
Sorrento Valley (I'm in biotech, not IT). But I think for more-middle aged
folks, the restaurant scene near work is less of a factor? I don't need
excitement, I need affordable housing and schools -- and the weather and
outdoor activities are worth A LOT to me.

~~~
niels_olson
Also, our brewery scene is _way_ better! Wait, you mean biochemists,
geneticists, and molecular biologists might know something about yeast?
No.....

~~~
gkop
Indeed, I haven't found a Bay Area IPA that's in the same league as Alpine.

~~~
sfbrian
You haven't had Cellarmaker then.

------
CalRobert
I moved to San Diego to start a tech company with a partner about 18 months
ago. SD was chosen because partner lived there and was established. We found
it very difficult to get the attention of any VC's or potential customers. We
did manage to get an interview with YC, but were declined.

Was this due to the location? Perhaps. I do know that the events we went to
were lackluster, and the ecosystem was weak. You've got Evonexus (which
wouldn't even talk to us), and Connect Springboard, who wanted less complex
ideas. Meetups were ok but the ones we went to ended up with more hangers on
("hey I brought my class of 20 HS students to learn about startups at this
meetup with 8 people!") than actual people doing stuff.

Also, to be honest I just really didn't like San Diego. My wife got hit by a
car while riding to work on a scooter and was in a cast for a few months; the
weather was too damn hot (and I lived only two miles from the beach); public
transport is dreadful; the culture, while better than LA, is still very socal;
drivers tried to kill me as I cycled everywhere; and the city is a model of
horrific urban design. Even in places that COULD be great you've got
organizations like the Hillcrest Business Association trying to kill a single.
damn. bike lane on one of the most heavily-ridden (and dangeous) streets in
San Diego - University Ave. The city spends years claiming it's doing
something just to have SANDAG kill it. This is particularly egregious when you
consider that Todd Gloria supports cycling - until it matters. A bike lane in
the middle of nowhere doesn't take any political courage.

SD is vastly overrated. I will admit, though, that the beer and Mexican food
are good. Within SD I _did_ quite like South Park. It was when I needed to
leave South Park that things were bad.

~~~
socialist_coder
If you want to be happy in SD, you have to be content with driving everywhere.
Cycling sucks in 99% of the city and mass transit is terrible. If you try to
live in SD like you live in SF or NYC, you will not be happy.

I'm not sure about your complaint with SD being too hot. 2 miles from the
beach should be great weather. I lived in San Diego for 20 of my 35 years of
life (moved away in 2011) and the weather is one of the best things about that
place. Some people prefer a cooler climate though.

It sounds like you would much rather live in SF. Cooler weather, better
cycling, and better public transit. For me, I prefer SD. I hated the SF
weather and the public transit still wasn't really that good (BART is too
limited).

I would love to move back to SD but housing costs are just too damn high and I
don't want to live in the cheap parts where its hotter and boring. I'm going
to be looking at rural Oregon or Washington when I hopefully move back to the
US in a couple years.

~~~
jennyjenjen
Yes and no on driving - my BF and I share a car, use car2go, and walk around
our neighborhood. We live in North Park. He is a video engineer for
conventions and tradeshows, so he's more in the tourism industry than
anything. It's actually a very lucrative career - up there with tech, if you
play your cards right and have the right work ethic/talent then it can pay and
provide well.

I'm in tech. I work in robotics and VR. Granted, the robotics company is in
SF, but the VR company is down here. I do have to drive to work with my own
car. But my BF can use car2go to get downtown when I've got the car.

We rent in NP and pay around $1000 (we got lucky) for a 1bd. We're
anticipating needing a 2bd within the next two years (he's got two kids) and
that should run us up to $2000 by the time we need it. That'll work though,
our incomes can support that. If either of the startups I work at do well,
then we'll be looking to buy in the next 5-6 years.

Housing is nowhere near as expensive here as it is in SF or NYC, though. Even
better if you're DINK (dual income, no kids). We probably have to pay more for
his kids from a previous marriage than we would if they were ours (child
support any whatnot), but it's possible to afford housing here.

Where are you now?

~~~
CalRobert
To answer your question, I'm in Dublin.

Lest anyone think I'm an immigrant to CA who just couldn't hack the culture
shock, I'm a Californian who grew up there- I spent thirty years there and
then moved to Ireland on a lark (and working holiday visa). I liked Ireland so
much I stayed for about 2.5 years, then moved to San Diego to start a company,
then after that failed moved back to Dublin. It's not perfect, but the
weather's cooler and the cycling a hell of a lot better than SD.

------
niels_olson
I'm in San Diego and have visited SF many times on business and pleasure. I
used to think I would want to live in the City and retire in the Bay area.
Today, I'm not so sure. It's just too crazy. Driving from my friend's studio
3rd floor walk-up near AT&T Park to Mountain View convinced me that drive is
crazy. I could get anywhere in San Diego in the time it took me to make that
commute.

And the article didn't seem to mention this, but a lot of these SV companies
are in office parks. Google, Apple, office parks with flair (and I use flair
in the Office Space sense of the word). The future is falling from the sky
like rain, but like rain, a lot of it is lost down the drain.

Also, Google is opening a pretty good-sized building in San Diego, just down
the street from Green Flash.

Also, I'm on the Navy side of government tech transfer. I have to say, the
government gives developers a pretty sweet deal on their IP rights.

Actually, y'all just go up to SF. Please. Enjoy it. I'll slum it down here.
I'll visit you.

~~~
CalRobert
"Driving from my friend's studio 3rd floor walk-up near AT&T Park to Mountain
View"

Taking a personal automobile through a metropolis might not be the best
option. Caltrain also serves MV and SF.

I agree that SV, just like SD, suffers from having too many bland, incredibly
sprawling office parks which are mostly acres of parking with a building
sprinkled here and there.

------
zaking17
It's fun to see San Diego at the top of HN.

I'm finishing a PhD at UC San Diego, and I've noticed a few things. First,
there is a different dynamic for biotech talent. The biotech scene in SD is
strong, and people seem drawn to that. Second, in contrast to LA at least,
commuting in SD is not terribly difficult. And there is a light rail (trolley)
beginning construction up to the UCSD campus from downtown. Third, this city
is a draw for people (like me) who are looking for something less bustling
than SF or LA, and I think it's important to try to keep young talent here by
selling this idea. In biotech, we desperately need better software engineers.

~~~
mikekij
What are you doing your PhD in? I'm working on a healthcare software company
in San Diego. We should chat.

~~~
zaking17
Bioengineering. I'll DM you on Twitter :)

[EDIT] Didn't work. Feel free to email me. Address is in my Bio.

------
brryant
Approaching my graduation from UCSD's CS program back in '08, I couldn't wait
to move from SD to SF. Several reasons but the main ones were: 1) hard to find
driven people that wanted to make an impact in their field 2) tech scene was
heavily dominated by biotech and Qualcomm 3) missing intellectually curious
people.

I hope it turns around soon however, since it's a beautiful place to live.

~~~
brandall10
UCSD '99 CS grad here. I opted to stay in SD for my career. There has been a
huge shift in the last five years -- plenty of startup activity downtown
([http://sandiegostartupweek.com/](http://sandiegostartupweek.com/)), some of
the meetups are quite active (the main js meetup regularly pulls in over 100
people).

Still, it's probably not quite as active as a secondary hub like Austin, but
at this rate it probably will be within the next five years.

------
ng12
I don't buy it. The northern part of San Diego is pretty comparable to, say,
Mountain View.

The real problem is lack of compelling opportunities. Your options are
basically Qualcomm or Inuit -- neither of which have particular draw for young
engineers.

~~~
bagels
This is why I left in 2009. Ten job leads in mountain view, zero in San Diego
County.

------
Eotterson
Notwithstanding the authors comments about location, I didn't want the
engineers who want to stay in San Diego to miss the opportunity to do so
because they were not aware of the great opportunities (companies) that are
here. Many of these companies are hiring, and some of the most explosive are
downtown: DOWNTOWN: MindTouch Classy Take Lessons GoFormz Underground Elephant
Sweetlabs ChatMeter Tap Hunter Zesty.io Skysafe

MID-Torrey/Mira Mesa/Solana: Tealium iBoss Seismic Certona Nervana (recently
purchased by Intel) Zebit Ingenu StackIQ Slantrange GovX SOCI Peachtree Zingle
Cordial AttackIQ PacketSled

NORTH Verve Mobile NTN Buzztime Luxtera Source Intelligence VoxOx

And this is only pure tech companies - not including the cross-over healthcare
IT/analytics companies...

Good luck hunting. These companies are hiring UCSD grads.

~~~
Eotterson
oops - while I know I forgot many...I have to add Verimatrix (because they
hired a UCSD intern this past summer!)

------
cylinder
Who cares? Where are the articles about San Antonio losing its "young oil and
gas talent" to Houston? How about Philly losing its "young finance talent" to
New York?

Also, I'm pretty sure biotech counts as "tech." Hey, it even has it in the
name. Too bad they don't have more on demand laundry startups, since
apparently that's the key to success as a city.

~~~
mountaineer22
"on demand laundry startups"

Is that a real thing?

~~~
sedachv
[https://www.getwashio.com/](https://www.getwashio.com/)
[http://flycleaners.com/](http://flycleaners.com/)
[https://cleanly.com/](https://cleanly.com/)
[http://www.fazioonthego.com/](http://www.fazioonthego.com/)
[https://www.sudzy.co/](https://www.sudzy.co/)
[http://www.getclothespin.com/](http://www.getclothespin.com/)
[http://getlaundri.com/](http://getlaundri.com/)
[https://washtrunk.com/](https://washtrunk.com/)
[http://www.nextcleaners.com/](http://www.nextcleaners.com/)

------
nniroclax
I guess it really depends on which you value – being close to work or living
somewhere cool. I am one of the few that actually reside in Sorrento Valley in
the middle of Qualcomm land. People don't want to live here because the
neighborhood isn't "cool" or "hip". However, I never have to put up with
traffic, the Del Mar beach is about fifteen-twenty minutes away, and I can
walk to Karl Strauss Brewery, Starbucks, and my co-working place. When I want
a better "scene", downtown is just a twenty minute uber ride away. It actually
works out pretty darn well if ya ask me, even if it's not a cool place like
North Park or Little Italy.

------
lisowski
As a 23 year old software engineer that recently chose to live in SD over SF I
find this article kind of funny. It didn't make sense to me to choose a place
where i might make more money, but have to spend it all to live. Life can be
pretty cheap in SD. I live 20 minutes/15 miles from work, a commute that would
take an hour in the bay. I also pay <$700 for the master bedroom in my house.
I'm also a 10 min uber to any downtown spot I want. Not much overpriced food
here either, and many options if you drive 15 minutes. You may not be working
at Google or Apple down here, but that might not be the worst thing.

~~~
raitom
Haha I totally recognize myself here. I'm a french 25 years old software
engineer who had opportunities in SF, NYC and SD. I chose to come in SD 2
years ago and I never regretted my choice! It feels like being in paradise
compared to my hometown in france.

Fantastic weather all year, good beer, great food, tons of things to do,..
Rent are pricey but I wanted an nice place to live in a not crowded/safe place
(Spectrum in Kearny Mesa) so me and my roommate pay 2300$/month for a
2bd/2bath appartement with gym, pools, ...

I'm 15 minutes away from my workplace in downtown and i love to be able to
drive top-down every day (I like to drive).

Sure, I don't work for Google or Apple and don't make $150k+/yr ( _just_ 85k)
but I don't care! The lifestyle in SD is what I love and I don't think I'll
move from here in the new few years.

Bonus point: I feel like i'm the only young french professinnal (software
engineer or not) in the city so I enjoy how easy it is to pick up girl with my
accent :D

------
eugenekolo2
Little do they know that SV is just as desolate? Most of the big tech firms
are 1-2 hours away from SF in suburbia.

~~~
ryguytilidie
Can you name one "big tech firm" that is 2 hour away from SF?

~~~
rm_-rf_slash
Apple, depending on traffic or how you get there.

~~~
honkhonkpants
^^^ exactly! People just don't understand how bad the traffic and
transportation systems around here can be, especially the northbound evening
commute hours.

My choice would have been IBM though, being as far as I can recall the most
distant major tech campus from San Francisco. It's 90 minutes by car or 3
hours by train.

~~~
FT_intern
nobody moves to the bay area to work for IBM

~~~
alexcarroll
Had a couple colleagues when I lived in Austin leave for SF to work for IBM...

~~~
honkhonkpants
I think it's safe to say that literally thousands of people have moved to the
Bay Area for work for IBM.

------
howuudoin
Slightly off topic, maybe. I live in San Diego. Anyone here from the area know
of any local resources a novice developer can use? I searched through
ycombinator and the one book everyone refers to is the Big Nerd Ranch one.
Currently going through that.

I see that the article mentions Origin Code Academy. However, I already work
full time and can't use the day time to take classes at an academy.

I have a few ideas for apps that I can personally use for my own benefit and
intend on publishing the apps to see maybe others can pick it up.

~~~
adultSwim
I like Coursera and edX. Content is high quality and it's all still free.

Might want to check out your local community college.

Books/self-study can be great. However that style of learning doesn't work for
everyone (particularly when just starting out).

~~~
rectang
Books and MOOCs are best when supplemented by studying alongside peers. I've
been leading discussion groups for years as we either go through books or take
courses. (An archive of some of them at
[http://wiki.apache.org/lucy/LucyBookClub](http://wiki.apache.org/lucy/LucyBookClub)
).

Right now, a group of us are going through the MIT OCW Gilbert Strang Linear
Algebra course ( [http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-06sc-linear-
algebr...](http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-06sc-linear-algebra-
fall-2011/index.htm) ), along with Coding the Matrix from Philip Klein at
Brown University ( [http://codingthematrix.com/](http://codingthematrix.com/)
).

I'm in San Diego, but most of the time I've recruited study partners from
either $dayjob or the open source communities I'm active in rather than met
people locally. Coursera Meetups haven't worked out so well for me. I wish I
had somebody to study DSP and audio programming with. :)

------
tmalsburg2
I lived in San Diego for the last two years and this article doesn't make much
sense to me. They say the problem is that Sorento valley is to far from San
Diego downtown but downtown is dull and there are plenty of good places to
live not far away from Sorento valley (Del Mar, La Jolla, Pacific Beach). I
commuted from North Park to the UCSD campus which is close to Sorrento valley
and it was no problem at all.

~~~
CalRobert
That's funny, I remember getting from North Park to Sorrento Valley being
sheer, utter hell on earth, most of it spent crawling up 805 at a snail's
pace.

Also, downtown (well, the gaslamp at least) is kinda meh but North Park, South
Park, and Golden Hill are probably the best neighborhoods in the city, and
about 2 miles from DT.

DT does have one advantage though in that you can take the Coaster to Sorrento
Valley.

~~~
lisowski
The 805 is by far the worst freeway in SD. During any commuting time, you are
bound to crawl.

------
mc32
I was in San Diego last year. Speaking to recent graduates as well as people
looking to go to university, a great many, more than I expected, mentioned
wanting to move to the SF bay area for either work or study, once I mentioned
living in the SFBA --admonitions about the cost of living didn't seem to have
much sway.

I think young locals see SD as an outpost of (US) civilization and have a
desire to move to the actual center of jobs, education, technology and a
little bit of culture.

------
gavanwoolery
Hi from San Diego.

I did a brief contracting stint in SF, and considered relocating up there for
work (the pay is indeed much better) but ultimately decided against it. Note
that I grew up in the Bay Area.

In SD I pay $2300/month for a 2500 sqft house with a yard and garage, 4 blocks
from the ocean. While in SF, I paid this for a single room in a shady
neighborhood without a window.

After coming back here, I was struck by how _clean_ it is compared to SF.

For the young people, SD has some of the best nightlife I have experienced
(and I've been everywhere throughout California). SF has better food but our
culinary scene is getting much better and has improved drastically over the
last decade, IMO.

We also have a growing capital scene. Its not SV, but if I were an investor I
would hole up here - its nicer, cheaper, and the burn rate is lower. Plus we
have some big players here: Rockstar, Sony, Psyonix (Rocket League), Qualcomm,
many military contractors, and so forth. Even a bit of history here - FTL
(which made Dungeon Master) was located in SD.

Anyhow I'll stick around here for now. :)

~~~
stuxnet79
Totally forgot that Rockstar has a studio in SD.

------
aresant
Add to the stack that the startup ecosystem sucks.

1) Raising an angel round - and certainly a Series A - in San Diego means
getting on a plane to the Bay Area or a 2.5 hour drive to LA.

2) Potential acquirers are all up north which means not only do you have to
figure out how to sell your tech people on SD while you're building, you have
to then sell them on relocating when you get a term sheet.

~~~
Bjorkbat
I could always put it into perspective for you and tell you about the
Albuquerque, New Mexico startup ecosystem.

As far as quality of life goes, it's still pretty good, but the startup
ecosystem doesn't factor into that equation at all.

------
xdc55
When I first visited San Francisco for a work trip, I was so underwhelmed
about my experience there, don't take me wrong I think it's a great city with
a lot going on, but I couldn't help but feel like it was so overhyped. Several
friends wouldn't stop talking about how great SF is, and in my mind I always
had this silly image of self driving cars, entire streets dedicated to
technology and all kinds of futuristic scenery before I visited but instead on
my first visit I was greeted by some crackhead spitting on me while riding
BART, lots of beggars and homeless people as I got out of the station and
walked around, trash in the streets and it looked like just another city. Lots
of restaurants and bars though, fantastic food selection.

I could be a bit biased on my view though, as I'm more of a suburb person.

I'd like to visit Palo Alto and San Jose to check it out at some point, I've
heard it has a lot to offer too

------
amyjess
As someone from Dallas who's considering a move next year (not by choice; our
state legislature has promised to pass laws next year that will make it
effectively illegal for me to continue to live here), I have no interest in
ever setting foot in NorCal, but SoCal is on my short list.

I find the Silicon Valley tech industry frightening and the culture associated
with it degenerate. I'm not interested in the out-of-control housing costs
either. SoCal, on the other hand, reminds me of home far more than most any
other part of the country I've looked at. If I were to move to the LA or SD
areas, I wouldn't feel too horribly out of place there.

So count me in as one young-ish person (31, but still technically a
Millennial) in tech who would rather live in San Diego than Silicon Valley.

If it helps, I prefer to live in the suburbs and detest the idea of living in
any kind of downtown.

~~~
tzs
> As someone from Dallas who's considering a move next year (not by choice;
> our state legislature has promised to pass laws next year that will make it
> effectively illegal for me to continue to live here)

What are they trying to do?

~~~
amyjess
I'm transgender, and they've promised to pass bills to make it illegal for
trans people to use the bathrooms according to our actual gender. If any of
those pass, I won't be able to stay here without becoming a criminal. So I
intend to move to a blue state if this happens. My short list is SoCal,
Chicagoland, and the Twin Cities.

Here are a number of sources:

[https://www.texastribune.org/2016/04/27/bathroom-law-
battle-...](https://www.texastribune.org/2016/04/27/bathroom-law-battle-
begins-take-hold-texas/)

[http://www.dallasnews.com/business/columnists/mitchell-
schnu...](http://www.dallasnews.com/business/columnists/mitchell-
schnurman/20160517-lt.-gov.-patrick-is-wrong-bathroom-bills-are-bad-for-
business..ece) (this one might have a paywall)

[http://kxan.com/2016/04/28/controversial-bathroom-bill-
could...](http://kxan.com/2016/04/28/controversial-bathroom-bill-could-be-
coming-to-texas/)

[http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/politics/Plano-lawmaker-drafts-
bi...](http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/politics/Plano-lawmaker-drafts-bill-
prohibiting-local-governments-from-issuing-transgender-bathroom-
policies-393174961.html)

[https://thinkprogress.org/texas-republicans-we-really-
want-t...](https://thinkprogress.org/texas-republicans-we-really-want-to-
discriminate-against-transgender-people-too-updated-a026f19b45d6#.dz66r1p4c)

------
dxbydt
I got a pretty competitive offer from a San Diego startup about 3 years back.
They flew me down, wined & dined & afterwards we talked a bit of technology.
They even did a real-estate tour to sort of close the deal. I turned them down
after a lot of thought. Based on the outcome of that startup now, I was right.
But you never know...

There is a fantastic passage in William Goldman's books where he talks about
why all successful screenplays have basically been written out of crummy
motels in Hollywood Blvd and tiny apartments in theatre district in NYC. Most
successful screenwriters like Goldman for example are millionaires and film
companies can easily afford to put them up in some exotic hotel in Vail or
other foreign locales etc. Why pick crummy hovels to do your best work ? The
same goes for Kurosawa ( Seven Samurai etc.) who did all his best work in some
tiny hotel room even though his palatial house was much better furnished.
Essentially, there is something called work-culture that happens best in work-
cities, and when you think about tech work, the work-cities are basically
crammed rows of desks in mountain view, Palo alto, soma SF,.... You don't
think of jira tickets and Tahiti in the same breath. And those were the vibes
I got out of San Diego - it was so _nice_ and relaxing and I didn't see myself
or my other colleagues getting any serious work done. You just felt like
kicking back and watching the clouds or going surfing and lying on the beach.
It's too holidayish. I would go there for a vacation, but not to actually get
work done.

Like it or not, most tech work isn't particularly pleasant, and that matches
the crummy efficient silicon valley vibes...rows of laptops, hardly any space,
minutes away from pools of urine and filth on Market Street...I mean, it is
what it is. I love Silicon Valley and I don't see work moving away from here
given the nature of this work-city. Professors at school used to say the same
thing about why the top math journals and papers come out of Minnesota and
Chicago and Boston, as opposed to universities in more pleasant climes -
because the weather in those places is so awful you have no choice but to stay
cooped up in the library working on your papers :)

------
yuncun
I mean, you could live downtown and drive 25 minutes to Sorrento valley. Most
commuters are going the opposite way. You could even go surfing in the morning
before work, if you live just a bit north of Downtown.

Sorrento valley is a lonely place though, I do admit this.

~~~
gusmd
As counter-intuitive as this sounds, it's actually the complete opposite.
Living downtown and commuting to Sorrento Valley is a pain. My boss does it
and he does 6 AM - 8PM to avoid traffic. Meanwhile, my wife goes from Del Mar
to Old Town and only starts seeing traffic close to Del Mar on her way back.

~~~
yuncun
Okay, I was just speculating. I lived in Penasquitos.

------
atarian
Job mobility is also a big factor. I talked with someone who moved from the
Bay Area to San Diego; people in San Diego tend to stay with their jobs for a
long time. Whereas here it's not unusual to have people switching after 1-2
years.

~~~
acdha
Is that a factor or a symptom? I left in 2008 but through then it was common
for people to stay in part because there weren't better options, especially
since many people only have a narrow range where a new job won't make their
commute substantially worse.

------
mbastos
As someone in Tech who has worked both in Sorrento Valley and Downtown as well
as places like LaJolla, Point Loma and now remotely from home in Lakeside I
can only say that as a developer I preferred my experience working downtown vs
anywhere else. Keep in mind this wasn't me the Entrepreneur, this was merely
me the software engineer working for someone else, I was living in Fashion
Valley at the time and could take the trolley right up to the office across
the street from the main train station and it was a great commute. My wife
would bring the kids down for lunch and we'd meet up at the water fountain
park at City Hall or at the Children's museum. If I had to work late it didn't
matter because the trolley ran late into the night and would drop me off right
at home. The dev team could walk outside of the office and go to pretty much
any restaurant in little Italy or within a short walking distance so we were
never limited to mall or fast food and team lunches were the highlight of the
week. If you didn't want to go to a restaurant there were always food trucks
on some days of the week and the views from the high rises made you feel like
the kind of work you were doing was important. As an entrepreneur now having
an office downtown is crazy expensive and an unnecessary commute but if you're
trying to understand it from the perspective of the workers and the talent
themselves, I would always pick a job downtown vs one in Sorrento Valley or
LaJolla any day of the week but that's just me and different people have
different desires and perspectives. I'm not a beach guy though but I can also
see a beach office being a huge talent draw for you as well, I guess it just
depends on the personalities of the folks you're trying to draw that's all.

------
akgerber
My first job out of school was at Qualcomm.

The lunch options are actually pretty great
(Mexican/Indian/Afghan/Thai/Chinese/French/Donut Touch/whatever you want) in
Sorrento Valley, and it's located next to a beautiful canyon. The problem is
that it's profoundly isolated from the rest of the city, and there's
reasonable way to get there and back other than driving in heavy traffic.
Basically, although it's in the City of San Diego, it's not remotely in
anything resembling a city and it's not near anything remotely resembling a
social life.

I lived in La Jolla near the beach— also beautiful, but also boring by design.
Any youth and energy (other than drunks in lifted trucks) was a half-hour
drive away, which also meant I couldn't drink.

I also didn't love my work at Qualcomm and couldn't find another job in a
more-reasonable location.

I biked to work there, but that meant biking on the 5, which felt extremely
unsustainable— the only other bike commuter I ran into was an older guy who
had been rear-ended by a drunk on a similar route. There was no practical way
to commute on transit— just an infrequent commuter train down an enormous mesa
from the office.

------
spicytunacone
The article cites pay, location and happening as factors, though I also think
there just isn't demand for young tech talent in SD. San Diego is where older
folks/retired military go to raise families or retire proper as they land
relatively cushy positions in the big sectors we do have here (Qualcomm et.
al). New grad and junior positions are there yet still too few.

There is startup culture in San Diego, and maybe this is just because I was
down south, but tech firms seemed to comprise only a small number of them. Of
the ones I had met, they were either in "We're only interested in those with
years of proven experience" (albeit they _were_ typically working in advanced
areas) or "We just graduated too and can nary afford to pay anyone" phases.

On top of all that my offers were too low to comfortably move out of my
family's flat (perhaps I _am_ entitled). Inadvertently, I'm now in the Bay
Area.

Take this with a grain of salt. I studied abroad and my network at home was
neither expansive nor tech-oriented. I'm also led to believe I couldn't obtain
appropriate security clearance so military contractual work was a no-go.

------
solveforall
As a San Diego resident for the last 12 years, I have to agree it is not a
good place for a tech worker. Salaries are quite low compared to other areas,
companies aren't very many or particular successful, and housing costs in the
good school districts are high (at least $600k for a SFR). Public transit is
awful, and car traffic is quite bad as well. If I didn't have family here, I'd
definitely move.

------
gedy
By stressing lack of downtown locations, this seems be a fluff piece ala
"Millenials don't want to drive!".

While there's a lot of competition for talent to leave to Bay Area, lots of
folks I know moved here to SD to actually have a life outside of work, since
its housing prices are much lower, access to beaches, food, etc. The commuting
is better than SF imho, unless you simply cannot or refuse to drive.

------
jlubawy
In my opinion this article and others I've seen like it seem have everything
backwards. For new graduates I wouldn't recommend living in downtown San
Diego, at least not right now. It's (relatively) expensive and can get old
real quick.

Instead I'd suggest trying to find a job downtown or elsewhere and live
somewhere more exciting/fun like the beach (Mission/Pacific) or any of the
neighborhoods surrounding downtown (North/South Park). The rent is generally
<$1000/month, the commute from any of these places is <20 minutes, and there's
always something to do.

Also, haven't seen the University of San Diego (USD) mentioned in any of the
other comments, but they just opened a standalone engineering school last
year, so I'm sure that will also start to attract a lot more talent to the
area (biased USD alumnus here).

After doing a 4 year stint in Orange County and just moving back last year,
I'd say things are looking better than ever for SD, not worse. I'm glad I
moved back and excited to see where it goes from here.

------
bsder
Really? My experience is that quite a few of the students I know who graduated
in CS are underemployed in San Diego and you couldn't blast them out with a
nuclear bomb. Most of them would benefit from a couple of year stint somewhere
else and then coming back.

And, why would they want to live in downtown San Diego? It's a terribly boring
place. SD is not NYC or Chicago. A lot of young people are into the beach, and
there are mixed ethnic areas that are far more interesting than downtown.
Although, to be fair, the real problem is that there is _nowhere_ cheap for
the artists who make an area interesting to live. Furthermore, my personal
assessment is that the downtown areas in most tech cities aren't really _that_
"interesting" unless you have a remarkable amount of money to spend--which
young people don't.

On top of all that, San Diego salaries _ALWAYS_ lag. I call it the Sun Tax,
but you can generally go to the Bay Area for a 50+% (or more) bump. San Diego
isn't _THAT_ much cheaper than the Bay Area.

------
rectang
This is a situation where part-time telecommuting can work out: live in San
Diego, work in North County, but only drive up 1-2 days a week.

------
sonicrocketman
Speaking as an SD native, and a 25 year old developer, I've definitely felt
the urge to move to San Francisco at times, but I could totally see SD
becoming a huge hub for the tech industry if given the chance. SD would need
some huge transit changes (it would be great if it actually worked), and
having companies move downtown would relieve a lot of the hassle of commuting.

The north county areas of SD, where the tech jobs are, feel a lot like Silicon
Valley, and I don't think that's a good thing. Leaving Mira Mesa for SV is not
a win in my book. SF proper is an amazing place, much like SD, with lots of
culture and stuff to do, but unlike SF, SD doesn't have the clout with the
tech culture. Personally, I'm always excited when people say they're creating
tech startups here, and I hope more people do.

Plus we're always on vacation here :P

EDIT: I agree that most people I meet are not interested in working for Intuit
and Qualcomm.

------
thrwawybcosrsns
Would love to move out to San Diego since I have close relatives in that area.
I have job prospects in the LA and Bay areas. Took a few (phone / Skype /
Google Hangouts) interviews with a couple employers in those areas and all of
them went very well. I am on the east coast (glad they settled for remote
interviews so far) and both the companies want me to fly out to meet now.

Thought I'd post here in case anyone's hiring. I'd rather live in / near San
Diego and be close to family. Love it there.

I work remotely and there's the possibility for me to move while staying at my
current job. I am looking to change jobs if I get a better offer since my cost
of living will increase when I move to San Diego.

If you have any comments or are looking for experienced (7+ yrs) software
engineers please get in touch. Using a throaway account because I don't want
my employer to know that I'm looking for a job.

------
SCAQTony
To upgrade challenging neighborhoods in New York, developers along with the
city politicians created spaces for artists with reduced rents for a specific
amount of years. By bringing in artists in the neighborhood would become
"trendy" and draw more development. Perhaps San Diego can do the same thing
with developers?

Tom Wolfe on "artists are usually at the forefront of neighborhood
revitalization..."

[https://books.google.com/books?id=o8GEcPiiKjcC&pg=PA184&lpg=...](https://books.google.com/books?id=o8GEcPiiKjcC&pg=PA184&lpg=PA184&dq=tom+wolfe+artists+neighborhood&source=bl&ots=pxv97UBFGd&sig=2dST9d8cuz2ecWdzKvm6rO3Ozs0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi64u2K5ZHPAhUYwGMKHQEEAhIQ6AEINzAE#v=onepage&q=tom%20wolfe%20artists%20neighborhood&f=false)

------
jedberg
A relevant story. I worked with a friend here in the Bay Area a while back.
One day his father in law got sick, and he was forced to move to San Diego.
When he started looking for jobs, they were all offing about 20% less money
for the same work, despite the fact that at the time the cost of living was
almost identical.

When he asked one of them, "why don't you pay as much as the bay area" he was
told, "our weather is better so we pay less".

There's only so much suffering you're willing to take for "better weather".

The same could of course be said for Silicon Valley too.

------
John23832
It's interesting that he says location is the cause. I think I agree, but then
I think about DC, where most of the tech jobs (aside from some government
ones) seem to be located outside of the city

~~~
ikeyany
The problem in San Diego is that although traffic blows, there's no strong
public transit like you have in DC.

~~~
djKianoosh
wait what? DC has one of the worst public transit systems of a major city in
the world. portions of it are constantly shut down for maintenance. there was
a week this summer with 2-3 fires in the system.

"strong" it is not.

carry on

~~~
Grishnakh
Why is this being modded down? It's absolutely correct, as anyone who lives in
the DC area would know.

Come to DC and try riding the Metro on Saturday or Sunday night and see how
you like it.

Metro used to be a pretty decent system 20 years ago; today it's a disaster.

~~~
John23832
I think the fact that DC has a system puts it ahead of most places.

When people talk about DC they should really be talking about NoVa. And size-
wise, NoVa is a sprawling southern city. The fact that the Metro covers most
of it is much better than SD, or a closer city like Richmond.

~~~
Grishnakh
I'm sorry, but the Metro does _not_ cover "most" of NoVA. It has a few lines
that jut into it, to provide commuting into DC, and that's it.

It is __absolutely useless __if you are working someplace in NoVA, and also
live in NoVA. It will not help you get around in NoVA _at all_.

Whether it's better than American cities is irrelevant. The original claim, in
a discussion about tech workers and tech jobs, was that the DC area had a good
public transit system unlike SD. That is objectively untrue, for tech workers,
for the reasons I stated above. The DC metro area is no better for tech
workers as far as public transit goes. If you get a tech job in NoVA (or MD),
you will absolutely need a car.

If you want to ride the Metro to work, you need to go back to school and get a
degree in law or international relations so you can get one of those downtown
DC jobs.

------
willismichael
Why does tech talent have to be young?

~~~
ng12
Because we've been in a talent shortage for 10 years. By the numbers the
available applicant pool is young.

~~~
AstralStorm
There is no shortage, it is just that every company wants to hire all the same
rock stars and nobody wants to train anymore.

~~~
laughfactory
I've definitely observed this here in SD. When I used to go to meetups as an
aspiring developer we'd get lots of recruiters looking for "rockstars" or
senior developers, and none (?) just looking for talent they could cultivate.
I understand this is a by product of people staying at jobs for 1-3 years
these days, but come on, where are future rockstars and senior devs going to
come from if someone doesn't give them a shot?

~~~
ng12
Can you blame them for not wanting to take the gamble? I was once given a new
hire who had a degree in a different field and later went to one of those
hacker schools. He was smart, friendly, and a good worker -- but just not cut
out for a job writing software. Not only was he unproductive, but he dragged
down the rest of the team who had to fix his code and spend extra time going
over his code reviews.

~~~
stuxnet79
Can you go into more detail regarding why he wasn't cut out? Did he just not
have enough experience at the time to work on software?

It's always interesting to me what makes a 'bad' hire, a 'bad' hire because
I'm starting to realize it is very subjective. My motivation level and
productivity varies significantly depending on work conditions, and how well I
am getting along with colleagues.

~~~
ng12
He could write code just fine (he passed the interview) but he couldn't seem
to grasp engineering. He couldn't look at a mock or a system diagram and
figure out how to translate that into code. Given multiple approaches a
problem, he wasn't ever able to formulate the advantages and disadvantages to
each (and would inevitably pick some crazy, obfuscated approach).

Maybe it was just lack of experience, and he'll eventually come into his own
-- but he definitely wasted an unacceptable amount of resources for a small
company.

------
the_watcher
I live in SF. I have all the complaints and compliments for the city that all
of us do. But if someone in SD decides not to move because Sorrento Valley is
too far from downtown, they're going to be wildly disappointed. SF is small,
but is such a pain to move around in that you end up spending 90% of your time
within walking distance of home and work.

------
Apocryphon
All of the tech jobs are in bland industrial office parks? Protip: Don't
literally emulate Silicon Valley by building your tech scene to resemble
boring, culture-less suburban Santa Clara County. Don't build it to resemble
overpriced, under-serviced urban San Francisco, either. Innovate a better
model.

------
ghostman126
After Qualcomm's layoffs last year I am not sure how many still want to go
work for them.

------
skynetv2
seriously? people moving away because there are no good restaurants near work
places?

------
modethirteen
[http://www.10news.com/news/tech-company-strives-to-keep-
work...](http://www.10news.com/news/tech-company-strives-to-keep-workers-in-
san-diego-081616)

------
swaits
San Diego has plenty of tech future. Startup scene is rich.

Amazon is here now (Solana Beach; disclaimer I work there) - and hiring.

Google is coming.

------
ihsw
Many _MANY_ cities are struggling with this -- business parks outside of the
city core and the only way between is commute via car.

Frankly this blows pretty hard and the only remediation is reliable public
transit between the two, or more to the point, some form of light rail (with
frequent all-day every-day service) or even heavy rapid transit. Sadly many
municipalities find this unappetizing as the time-frame for such a project
stretches past a decade and the cost into the billions, so such cities will
inevitably be left to languish.

I can only hope that they start to see the writing on the wall sooner than
later.

The complete and total lack of attention to bicycle infrastructure is an issue
too, but that is a whole different can of worms.

~~~
makecheck
The weird thing for me is how many companies resist working from home
(permanently) as a solution. Screwed-up office and housing locations become a
_lot_ more palatable when you never have to make that commute.

I’m not sure how it became a thing to distrust employees so much that teams
can’t even conceive of somebody that is never in the office. The silliest
situation I encountered was one a few years ago where a manager couldn’t see
how ridiculous it was that he _disallowed_ working from home for employees in
his own city even though half the people on his team were in another _state_
and he could never keep tabs on them _anyway_.

------
beachstartup
a lot of people also move north to orange county or los angeles.

