
"Ecological grief" grips scientists witnessing Great Barrier Reef’s decline - pseudolus
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02656-8
======
moosey
I experienced something like this earlier this year, when I read about the
massive loss of flying insect life. It was deep enough that I am pretty sure
that I went through an identity crisis, and through the books by Yuval Noah
Harari (adding a layer of abstraction to human organization, and a new way to
look at identity for me), classes like "Learning How to Learn" (which took
away the sense that I was static, or just too stupid to become a researcher
and be able to help in the near future), and "Enlightenment Now" by Steven
Pinker (teaching me to understand that advocacy works, amongst other things),
I'm pretty sure I came out a healthier individual on the other side. In fact,
I'm not exactly sure about the old version of me at all, it's been quite the
journey this year.

I would recommend, even though these awful events are occurring, to read books
that encourage positive action (Enlightenment Now) and books that encourage
understanding of other people and their viewpoints, even if you find them to
be unacceptably obtuse at times: there are many layers of abstraction that
people live on, and sometimes you are just at a different one.

Advocate against pollution, and the causes that give rise to it. It will help
to bring change, it isn't hopeless.

------
throwaway5752
_" For Pandolfi, the consequences he worries about are those that his children
— now 17 and 20 — will face as a result of climate change. “I don’t care that
the world can go on without people, but I do care that I’m incurring debt on
my children that I can never repay,” he laments."_

If you didn't read it, that's the toughest part.

~~~
mping
Well, someone has to fix the mess we created, since it will persist long after
we parents are gone.

~~~
throwaway5752
I'm completely in favor of fixing it, for that reason.

------
jsingleton
There is a good documentary called Chasing Coral on this topic. It's on
Netflix.

The global climate strike is this Friday (20th):
[https://globalclimatestrike.net/](https://globalclimatestrike.net/)

You can even join digitally too:
[https://digital.globalclimatestrike.net/](https://digital.globalclimatestrike.net/)

------
abootstrapper
It’s not just climate scientists. I’ve been having a tough time with it
myself. I know I’m not alone.

------
Tepix
I‘m listening to the audiobook „The Uninhabitable Earth“ by David Wallace-
Wells and it‘s really depressing stuff. The urgency is stunning.

~~~
gdubs
I still feel like his New York magazine piece that was condemned by many as
too scary marks a turning point in the public discourse around climate change.

~~~
sureste
Can you share a link please?

~~~
gdubs
[http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-
earth-...](http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-
hot-for-humans.html)

~~~
dankohn1
He has a nice piece this week on Greta Thunberg.

[http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09/greta-thunberg-
climat...](http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09/greta-thunberg-climate-
change-movement.html)

------
cagenut
basically anyone that takes too close a look at climate change sees the horror
and cannot help but go through natural loss/despair/depression reactions and
cycles. you can almost perfectly map the most common responses to the kubler-
ross grief model:

    
    
      denial: people think this ones about denying its existence but we're really so far past that.  most of the denial right now is over the timeline and the budget.  the "science" says FUCKING YESTERDAY and WHATEVER IT COSTS but most people don't want to swallow that yet
      anger: the takes that focus on "these top 10 companies" or "these top 100 oil execs" or boomers or suburbs or cheeseburgers, or capitalism
      bargaining: you can tell these takes from phrases like "what if we just" and "I don't understand why we don't". they're mostly nonsense from people with zero understanding of engineering or the grid, or nonsense from people with just enough understanding of the grid to be dangerous and get tunnel-vision fixated on nuclear.  self driving thorium drones, etc.  
      depression: nothing we can do, its too late, no point in trying, hating anyone who does try, a thousand excuses and zero action
      acceptance: i won't say what I think goes here since if you haven't gotten through all the above steps you won't agree

~~~
japhyr
> the kubler-ross grief model

That model is really outdated, and was never meant to be the linear model it
is so often presented as. I imagine you were speaking lightly, but it's
important to call this out.

My wife is a grief counselor, and that is the clearest thing I've learned from
her, and it's the single most important thing to share when people are dealing
with grief. The prolonged use of this model in society and popular culture
leads people to believe that we're supposed to progress through grief, and at
some point "get over it". But grief is cyclical, and it's different for
everyone.

Environmental grief is real, and it's a pretty crazy time to be a parent. How
do you help your kid understand that the world you brought them into is
quickly collapsing?

~~~
fsloth
"How do you help your kid understand that the world you brought them into is
quickly collapsing?"

I'd say as a parent it would be pretty irresponsible to say anything that
would make the kid feel any sudden anxiety.

We don't really talk about it. If our kids express their worry the we will say
the truth - biomes are not doing too good. But we don't really consider it as
some major doomsday looming over.

Personally I was really anxious as a kid. I was really scared when I learned
that one day sun will turn to red giant and destroy earth. Ditto about
asteroids. The Amazon (30 years ago as kid I refused to eat at McDonalds for a
while). And there were also actual bad things happening to people close to me
- but you get the point. Easily distressed.

As an adult, I see no way this existential anxiety would have done any good to
me.

So, as a parent I play it cool. And besides, we don't know _what_ is going to
happen. It's not going to be rainbows and sunshine ... but really. If you were
with a kid on a train to Auschwitz, would you tell them me and him would soon
be gassed to death, or lie to them it's all going to be fine. I'd lie.

~~~
anigbrowl
To use your closing example, that sort of fatalistic passivity is _how you end
up on the train in the first place._ It's better to fight for your freedom
than to meekly accept it and everything else being taken away from you.

------
anigbrowl
Action is a great curative for despair. If people aren't listening to polite
explanations and exhortations then maybe it's time to try other approaches
instead of just feeling helpless and passively documenting it.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
I think the problem is that people just aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Just look at how these threads go, someone will suggest that maybe we should
stop flying around the globe for fun, stop demanding access to fresh fruit
year round, eat less meat, not upgrade our iPhone every 6 months, etc. and
what do people do? They say, "oh, but I'm just a drop in the bucket". Everyone
is very much for _someone else_ making sacrifices, as long as it isn't them.
And that's why we're doomed. Hopefully, the next go at global civilization can
learn from our mistakes.

~~~
philipkglass
People calling for government action are willing to make _collective_
sacrifices. Making _individual_ sacrifices will not change the trends that
need changing. That's realism, not hypocrisy.

You can't push adulterated foods out of the marketplace by telling individual
consumers to make wise choices. You need something like the Pure Food and Drug
Act.

You can't push water-polluting laundry detergents out of the marketplace by
telling individual consumers to make wise choices. You need something like the
Clean Water Act.

Telling Los Angelenos agitating for clean air, circa 1967, that they should
buy their own cleaner cars (or find ways to avoid driving altogether) before
supporting the government California Air Resources Board would likewise have
been futile. They needed regulation, not more personal virtue.

Positive collective action is required to solve collective action problems. I
already went vegetarian and drive less than most Americans. I've never
mentioned my personal behavior in climate discussions here before because it's
beside the point. I keep upvoting posts that propose carbon taxes and tariffs
(or equivalent statutory phase-out requirements) because those are the things
that will make a difference.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
> People calling for government action are willing to make collective
> sacrifices. Making individual sacrifices will not change the trends that
> need changing. That's realism, not hypocrisy

Yeah, no rain drop believes it is responsible for the flood.

~~~
nothrabannosir
That’s because it isn’t. If you want to stop a flood, don’t target individual
raindrops, target the whole storm.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
The drops are the storm. Ok, we're stretching the analogy now, but if people
are unwilling to make sacrifices for themselves, why would they be willing to
vote for policies that negatively impact them? And you know what? From the
election results what people base their political decision making on it seems
that they won't.

If you actually, truly give a damn instead of just using it a some kind of
virtue signaling then you should be willing to make sacrifices. Demonstrate
that you care instead of just talking.

------
defterGoose
I went on a coral sea diving trip a couple summers ago. It was amazing, and
I'm glad I got to see some of the beauty there before it's almost inevitably
gone forever. Unfortunately it's hard to translate this type of loss into a
language that most people can understand. Sometimes I wish that the effects of
climate change were happening more starkly in terrestrial areas first, like
mountains. If the ski resorts were all closing down because there was no snow
I think it would shake people from their lassitude a lot quicker.

~~~
notquiteacop
What I read: "I'm glad I got to contribute to CO2 production and the
decimation of the environment by taking a vacation to examine the coral reefs
before we collectively destroyed them."

If there's ever a collective lawsuit for the excess carbon footprints
produced, there will be hell to pay, and the people getting rich off of
pushing externalities to their communities today will be the same ones serving
life sentences tomorrow.

~~~
InterimNew
We don't have any indication that the OP took any form of flight to get to the
coral. There is not enough detail within that post to shame them for their
carbon footprint, and such ire would be better directed at the ~100 companies
that are responsible for 70% of emissions.

~~~
evandijk70
Agree with the first part of the above comment, but I wonder about the
statistic in the second half.

I have seen it before and I always wonder when it comes up: If you take a
flight with Emirates, is it considered pollution by Emirates or by you? What
about the CO2 used to build the plane? Should you divide those emissions among
everyone that flew in the plane, or should that CO2 be added to the company?

------
kmlx
"They found that people could mourn the disappearance or degradation of a
species or landscape and the future losses of an ecosystem."

I assume this happens in a first world country.

My 2nd rate country still throws it's trash in the forest. Literally.

------
cheezymoogle
I wrote this five years ago on reddit on the same topic and it's too long to
embed:

[http://txti.es/ocean-acidification](http://txti.es/ocean-acidification)

TL;DR: [T]his isn’t a train that stops for anyone, regardless of all the
radical idealism, all of the futurist woo, the green colored packaging or
compact fluorescent light bulbs, or all of the liberal sentimentality and
conservative denialism.

This is not a movie. There is not a plot line. There is no salvation at the
end of the hour. You are not a survivor in the zombie apocalypse. This is
real. There are no adults secretly or overtly in control waiting to step in.
Superman isn’t coming to save us from ourselves. You are in the middle of an
extinction event that just so happens to include you.

~~~
joeblow9999
the current warming trend is not an extinction threat to humans even according
to very pessimistic projections. try not to over panic it doesnt help. plenty
of things to be concerned about and pilibg on with unsubstantiated hysteria
only turns people off who might have listened

