
Apple may have to abandon Lightning connector cable - tartoran
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51137069
======
delecti
I mean, it's good to reduce disposable cables, but it's not like Apple is
egregious about this. The Lightning port has been in use longer than the time
between the release of USB and Mini-USB, Mini-USB and Micro-USB, Micro-USB and
USB-C, or USB-C to today. The 30-pin connector was current for 9 years, even
longer than Lightning has been around.

~~~
kd913
This is a rather pointless stat though. None of the cables currently available
are rated for 9 years and most have a ridiculously short lifespan of 1-2 years
anyway.

In fact it probably works against Apple as it demonstrates that the churn of
innovation doesn't really exist if new advances only occur every 9 years.

~~~
bjtitus
How is it pointless?

The article talks about trying to cut down on electronic waste:

> The regulator is determined to cut down on electronic waste being created by
> obsolete cables, which it estimates generate more than 51,000 tonnes of
> waste per year.

It's surely much less wasteful to extend the life of the cable standard than
to ensure longer cable lifespans. Even if you had a cable that lasted 7 years,
chances are the standard would have changed and you would be forced to replace
it. You can always purchase higher quality cables that do have longer
lifespans if Apple's aren't up to your quality standards.

> In fact it probably works against Apple as it demonstrates that the churn of
> innovation doesn't really exist if new advances only occur every 9 years.

I think you may have misunderstood the OP statistics. My understanding was
that the industry standards have previously been churning at a higher rate
than Apple's standards. So Apple's standards are often longer lived than the
standard connections.

~~~
kd913
It's pointless because , the chance of a cable lasting 7 years doesn't happen.
Even the phone isn't typically designed to last that long.

The cases where people end up replacing their cable because of a new standard
is way less frequent than the cable breaking, this has been my experience at
least considering the shifting standards which you talk about.

It sounds a bit like optimizing some process but ignoring what is actually the
bottleneck. The problem in this case is not the standard on top, but the
lifetime of the cable.

If the goal is to reduce e-waste then surely it makes sense to tackle the
approach from a reduce, reuse, recycle perspective in that order and focussing
on the EOL for the cable.

By shifting to one cable standard, you can reduce/reuse as at least other
products can have better utilization as that old cable is still usable with
other products. I have been less incentivised to buy new usb C cable for my
phone because my switch and headphone cables still work just fine.

I can't do anything with a lightning cable if my iphone dies other than to use
it for apple products. Just like I can't do anything with my old ipod
connectors. That is just straight e-waste.

By shifting to one cable standard, we can more easily recycle the cable as
there would be more manufacturers who would have the supply-chain/capabilities
of recycling these chargers. Contrast that to the lightning cable which only
apple and other companies with a lightning connector can handle effectively.

~~~
ppf
I don't know why it has proven so durable, but I'm still using a Motorola-
branded charger and microUSB cable that came with a Defy+, around 2012.

~~~
jeswin
The original Defy (2010) was the best phone I had ever owned. Water resistant,
hardy, high resolution and very, very pocketable.

I think the folks on XDA kept OS updates available till Android 7.

~~~
ppf
Sadly, I can't say the same of my experience with the Defy+. I found it quite
disappointing. Small screen, bulky case (that was fragile and broke around the
external screws), and not much more wear and water resistant than a regular
phone. I dug it out recently and sold it on ebay, although I'm not sure what
can be done with a phone stuck with an old version of the play store.

------
brandur
Does anyone know if there's any merit to Apple's claim that USB-C isn't
compatible with the iPhone's slim dimensions? (From the article: "Apple
insisted that its slimmer devices would be unable to fit the then-new USB-C
technology ...")

Just looking at the tech specs for the iPhone 11 (lightning) [1] versus iPad
Pro (USB-C) [2], the former is actually thicker at 8.3 mm compared to 5.9 mm,
and yet the iPad Pro can have USB-C.

Especially given that it's so prevalent in their other hardware, it almost
seems like stubbornness at this point that Apple doesn't want to switch, but
admittedly that doesn't pass the test of Hanlon's razor. It seems like there
must be a better explanation out there somewhere for why they've desperately
clung to lightning for so long (backward cable compatibility within the iPhone
ecosystem? inertia in circuit/case design?).

\---

[1]
[https://www.apple.com/iphone-11/specs/](https://www.apple.com/iphone-11/specs/)

[2] [https://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/specs/](https://www.apple.com/ipad-
pro/specs/)

~~~
brisance
You can't make a determination of connector dimensions based on device specs,
because they're not strongly correlated.

The simplest explanation is that Lightning came out before USB-C did, and
Apple did not want to risk another PR backlash from getting everyone to move
to it after they'd just switched from the 30-pin connector cable.

~~~
schwartzworld
That's not as simple as "they make more money when you have to buy their
peripherals"

------
GhostVII
I can't believe this legislation is actually being seriously considered, why
would you want the government forcing you to have a certain port on your
phone. By all means have regulations for things like electrical outlets and
radio frequencies and other protocols that interfere with each other, but when
it comes to individual devices it is just going to completely stall any
innovation. I don't want a manufacturer to have to lobby the government every
time they want to start using some improved charging cable, or when they want
to make a device where USB-C doesn't make sense, that's how we end up stuck on
old standards for forever. Doesn't seem like the government's business
anyways, you are really going to make it illegal for me to produce and
purchase devices without USB-C? Seems insane to me, if people don't want a
device because it doesn't have USB, they don't have to buy it.

~~~
kovacs_x
why do you think it's a bad idea that all small appliances with power
requirements <100w have single type connector? (ie. usb-c)

What is you benefit as a consumer to have each appliance have it's own unique
cable, generally providing same functionality?

~~~
pwinnski
I think it's a bad idea because if this legislation had been in place in, say,
2001, we'd all be stuck with terrible USB-mini connectors, not even terrible
USB-micro connectors. If 2007, we'd be stuck with terrible USB-micro
connectors instead. Now, post-2014, USB-C seems like a winner (too bad they
didn't do this in 2012, when it could have been Lightning with a forced-free
license!).

So now it's USB-C, and... that's it? Forever? No point in innovation in the
cable space, because nobody will be allowed to use anything else.

And "all small appliances < 100w?" So either I'm paying for a cable capable of
carrying data at high speed to power a lamp, or I have separate cables for
lamps and phones, but using the same connector, and how do I tell the
difference?

Hard pass.

~~~
beatgammit
> how do I tell the difference?

Ideally you won't need to in most cases. That being said, USB used colors to
match cables to sockets, with black being the old cable and blue being the
newer, faster interface. You could use the old cable on new devices, but
you're stuck with slower transfer.

For something like a lamp, it likely wouldn't matter what cable you use, so
just use whatever is laying around. If it's for something high speed, just
keep the cable separate.

Being able to use a device with a backup cable at degraded performance is
better than not being able to use a device. I had a lamp that used a bespoke
cable and connector, and when we lost one part, we threw the lamp away. We
later found the part, but nothing else used the connector, so we threw that
away as well. If it used a USB-C cable, I could just use one of the several I
have laying around.

------
DEADBEEFC0FFEE
While I'm fraustrated with the connector diversity in my home, I'm not at all
keen to have technology design mandated.

Would this forbid a certain type of product from using something better, and
force new design to be via committees?

I mean, it's not like Europe uses all the same mains power plugs. Well, I
guess UK leaving will help there.

~~~
gerdesj
I have lived with both the UK and the "Euro" "standardish" 2 pin with earth on
the outside plug for my formative years. I'm a UK army brat.

I'll take the UK plug any day. It is bigger by far in two unimportant
dimensions but thinner by far in the important one. The chord runs downwards
on all UK plugs not at 90 degrees to the wall by default but I will accept
that many Euro plugs also run downwards.

A UK plug is a big old beast which means it is easy to wire and it does not
wobble and is very safe to insert and remove. The long earth prong of the UK
plug makes it easy to insert even when blind/blinded.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Yes, the only downside is when you stand on it.

~~~
ChrisRR
And Americans think Lego is the worst thing to stand on. They've never stood
on a 3 pin plug!

------
SamReidHughes
So basically some subset of EU Parliament legislators have an opinion about
something.

In Apple's defense, the lightning connector and previous iPod connector both
served as a charging cable and computer interface cable. So it was never the
same situation as the old devoted phone chargers.

And they invented them without any standard alternatives available. If this
passes, the next time you think about inventing an interface and start with
all your products and the whole accessory market, remember the EU Parliament
might legislate away your right to use it.

~~~
ardit33
They are telling the industry to choose one common connector, and to
standardize around it....

They are not dictating which one.... and that the one they choose has to be
set in stone (i.e. never change)

De facto it is going to probably be USB-C, and I think it is a good move....

If years down the road, there is a new connector called USB-D (or whatever it
is called), they can switch to it.... Also, this is for charging, and not
data..., so it shouldn't hamper adoption of new data transport protocols.

~~~
wvenable
But if it's law to use the standard connector than how do you use a different
(lets say newer) connection if the law says to use the standard connector.

There's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Somebody is going to have to build
a device with a connector that isn't standard at some point to make progress.

~~~
Xixi
It only means that device makers will have to agree on a new standard before
they can drop the previous one. I agree that it will slow down things, but
there is no chicken and egg problem.

~~~
wvenable
And what if they can't agree? Maybe apple make a device so thin that even
USB-C won't fit and other manufacturers explicitly decide to hobble them by
not supporting a thinner connector.

This law would be great for anti-competitive practices. Lowest common
denominator wins by default.

~~~
ace32229
The iPad with a USB-C port is less than 6mm thick. How thin do you think
tablets can actually go?

~~~
wvenable
At one point I thought 6mm was impossible.

------
kbrwn
To everyone that thinks no ports, Qi only iPhones are the future. What if you
want to use your phone while it chargers? Charge your phone in the car?

I think we are another 10 years at least from having a device that could last
long enough off a single charge to warrant occasionally leaving it on a pad
over night as the main charging method.

~~~
jedberg
My car has an option for a built in Qi charger. It’s in the spot you normally
put your phone anyway.

That being said, how would you service a portless phone? There would be no
more DFU mode.

~~~
danaris
And how would you activate CarPlay? At the moment it's wired-only, and I'm
skeptical as to whether it could be made to work over Bluetooth in existing
cars. If you bought a new car today with wired CarPlay, you might still be
driving it in 5 or even 10 years, and you really wouldn't want to lose the
ability to actually _use_ CarPlay in just a year or two.

~~~
BuckRogers
There’s wireless Carplay today.

~~~
danaris
Really? Neat, I hadn't heard about that. I will have to look it up. I wonder
if my car supports it.

~~~
jedberg
I think only BMWs support it right now.

~~~
danaris
Well, that lets me out, for sure. Ah, well.

------
pcr910303
Well, FWIW even without these kinds of forcing, Apple still will move on to
the USB-C connector... USB-C is literally an Apple designed port. The iPad Pro
is adopting USB-C, I suspect that the next generation of iPhones will also
adopt USB-C. It's just that the current market of lightning is too big and
they weren't prepared for the overhaul yet.

~~~
lokedhs
Apple had engineers on the design team, but it's definitely not their
invention. Even an Apple-focused publication agrees with that:
[https://9to5mac.com/2015/03/14/apple-invent-usb-
type-c/](https://9to5mac.com/2015/03/14/apple-invent-usb-type-c/)

------
unlinked_dll
Don't most folks speculate they're going to abandon it within the next
generation or two?

I don't want government telling me what ports I can use in my design to be
frank. I get there are issues out there, but this is something that the
invisible hand of the market has done a good job of culling. Remember how it
used to be with every device having a wack connector? Nowadays you can count
on pretty much anything being a common variant of USB.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
The EU seems to be making an environmental argument, which seems credible?

~~~
Turing_Machine
Not really. As someone pointed out above, cables wear out fast. It's not like
you're going to save the planet by buying one cable that will last the rest of
your life. Most people go through several cables over the lifespan of a device
anyway.

What it does sound like a good way to get stuck with an obsolete and
substandard cable format forever, because once the One True Cable Design is
mandated by government fiat, changing it to something else is going to be
hell.

~~~
GordonS
I think most of the comments I've seen here about cables wearing out fast have
been specifically about Apple lightning cables.

In my experience, USB cables do not wear out quickly, especially if you buy
braided ones. In the past 15 years or so, I think I've had a single cable fail
(a cheap, crappy one that came free with something).

As a consumer, it benefits me greatly to only need one connector and charger,
and the environmental argument makes a lot of sense to me too.

------
diebeforei485
I think this is dumb.

I like the idea of everything using USB-C, but in reality I have found USB-C
cables to be unreliable (with power and with data) when used with a device
other than the one it came with.

You could go on and on about power ratings and spec adherence, but I have
never had such issues with Lightning cables.

~~~
pier25
Same here. I've had nothing but bad experiences with USB-C.

------
ksec
Would someday they mandate all USB-C cables to support 100W standard to reduce
wastage? So we dont have fragmented USB-C cables?

For those of us old enough to remember we used to have dozens of different
types of cables, We are now basically converging to CatX Ethernet Cables,
HDMI, USB-C High Power and Low Power, and Lightning.

I dont understand why we need to further mandate this to "one" solution,
especially when the "one" solution doesn't seems to be optimal in all
situation.

We have a few, a little diversity, and it is good enough.

Edit: And if Apple were to adopt a new connector I would much rather they
adopt the Smart Connector used in iPad Pro. It is magnetic, super simple and
easy to use. Fully Sealed and Water Proof by design.

~~~
AstralStorm
I'd like that connector to be a bit more secure. Not a lot, just a simple
mechanical notch like on RCA would do.

------
kovacs_x
Hopefully EU will decide on that!

Let's be honest- only reason apple has lightning connector is that they can
charge the hardware manufacturers.

Lighning port should die. Same as the previous 30-pin connector.

------
eru
That seems like pretty pointless regulation.

If they don't like cable waste, just slap a Pigovian Tax on cable waste
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax))
and let the market sort it out.

> The regulator is determined to cut down on electronic waste being created by
> obsolete cables, which it estimates generate more than 51,000 tonnes of
> waste per year.

Giving a per capita figure would have been helpful.

------
DavideNL
"No, the EU isn’t asking Apple to kill the Lightning cable" :
[https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/17/21070848/eu-apple-
europea...](https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/17/21070848/eu-apple-european-
commission-common-charger-lightning-cable-port)

------
toasterlovin
I think it’s useful to keep in mind that Apple helped design USB-C, so it’s
not like they’re shunning the standard. And they were one of the earlier
adopters in the PC space, and they’ve adopted it for the iPad Pro. I think the
main thing holding them back is a combination of 1) the huge installed base of
lightning accessories, and 2) the fact that USB-C adoption has been slow.

------
DevKoala
Please no. Design. by committee, specially political ones, is the worst thing
that could happen to innovation.

~~~
lopmotr
But isn't that how USB and lots of standards are designed? Not political but
still committees. It might not be perfectly elegant but at least it's a
universal standard, which is the main point of it.

I don't want the return of Sony Memorysticks and all that nonsense as every
company tries to be the winner. 18V powertool batteries currently suffer from
pointless brand fragmentation even though they're all basically the same
capability.

~~~
DevKoala
The USB interface isn't perfect. Committees for setting standards should
exist, but they should not be the only driving factor for change.

------
ajonit
Apple won't be happy for sure. Among other things, If USB C becomes an
standard , Apple would lose the revenues from MFi certification program.
(Though I am not sure how much they make using this program alone.)

------
pg_bot
If every new phone comes with a charging cable how much are we truly saving?

~~~
RealStickman
You wouldn't need a new charger with every phone then. Why not just let users
buy that separately?

------
alkonaut
That would be pretty bad for anyone with a bunch of apple devices and a bunch
of chargers, as during a period of several years you would no longer be able
to charge any device using any charger in your home. It’s like the switch from
the wide connctor to lightning all over again.

I really don’t care what plug Apple uses (their own or something else) but I
do want them to use a single one and stick with it.

------
SllX
Enforcing a mandatory switch to USB-C is moot with Qi charging kicking around
and widely supported.

------
hardtke
Isn't the issue that Apple charges 3rd party manufacturers a licensing fee to
use their proprietary designs? This raises antitrust issues (using dominance
in one market to control another market).

~~~
tatersolid
> This raises antitrust issues (using dominance in one market to control
> another market).

No it doesn’t. Patents are a explicitly a time-limited, government-granted
monopoly on a particular innovation.

Patents were originally established to create a financial reward which
encourages investment and invention. Patents are often abused of course, but
incentivizing the creation of an innovative tiny and durable connector is
_exactly_ what a patent is designed to do.

------
freepor
Please let’s not have politicians legislate connector hardware. People can
vote with their wallets, Android has settled on USB-C and has captured a lot
of market share. The market is working here.

------
planetzero
Government mandated technology. What could go wrong?

~~~
flukus
This is exactly the sort of thing governments are good at. Previous successes
are things like railway gauges, power connectors, power voltages, measurement
units, etc.

This is the sort of thing that allows the free market to work efficiently.

~~~
Turing_Machine
Things like railway gauges are components of a large-scale national network.

That is not true of a device connector, which only has to work between the
device and the power brick.

~~~
lokedhs
With a standard connector one can have standardised power bricks too, which
may eventually lead to no need for power bricks at all.

~~~
Turing_Machine
But we already have that. The power brick almost always has a USB connector on
it nowadays (even with Apple), and it didn't require setting up a perpetual
committee of bureaucrats to feed at the public trough.

~~~
andylynch
As others have noted, this was in large part due to the European Commission’s
common external power supply initiative back in 2009, and similar standards in
Asia.

~~~
Turing_Machine
Others may have "noted" that, but it doesn't make it true. In fact, the EU
common external power supply does NOT require a USB connection on the power
brick. It be hardwired ("captive", in their terminology).

------
voisin
Just switch to wireless Qi charging and eliminate cords altogether.

~~~
filoleg
I would be all for it, as long as there was some strong and small magnetic Qi
charger that allows you to charge while using the phone at the same time as
you hold it in one hand. Maybe it already exists, in which case, great, I am
all for it already.

------
orf
iPad Pro already has a USB-C connector, clearly Apple are already in the
process of doing this

~~~
LyndsySimon
I picked up a pair of AirPods Pro a bit ago, and was surprised to see a
Lightning connector. Not only that, but the included cable was USB-C to
Lightning.

I don’t know why they bothered at all, honestly.

~~~
mvanbaak
Because most of the people who buy the airpods, have an iphone. So, they can
use the cable they use to charge their iphone to charge their airpods and vc
versa.

The fact that it's an usb-c to lightning is because all their macbooks are
usb-c ;-P

~~~
LyndsySimon
I have an iPhone X, which is the only other device I own with a Lightning
port. I use a Qi charger for it.

I also have an iPad Pro and a laptop that uses USB-C for power.

In fact, I had to look it up and was surprised to see that the iPhone 11 has a
Lightning port. Odd.

------
chadlavi
I am by no means a libertarian pry-from-my-cold-dead-hands type, but it's
ludicrous to me that this is being legislated. There are way bigger problems
to solve, EU. Quite honestly who gives a shit what connector phones use? Most
users will stick with the same brand from device to device; I've been using
the same chargers since 2013 or so.

Ironically, this change would instantly produce a ton of tech waste and user
inconvenience when apple customers throw away their old lightning cables.

------
siquick
This is a fantastic piece of legislation.

------
dreamcompiler
Good. Wireless Qi charging is too slow, and Apple is still being a dongle diva
by constantly inventing its own special connectors.

~~~
evilduck
Constantly? Like, twice in twenty years?

~~~
dreamcompiler
I stand by my comment.

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CCDDwR2x9k0](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CCDDwR2x9k0)

~~~
evilduck
So besides lightning and the 40 pin connection, what else in that video is a
proprietary Apple connector?

