

Show HN: I built a website that lets you freelance for bitcoins - GeorgeRR
https://www.btcworkers.com/

======
Lukeas14
Just placed a bid on a project. Didn't realize till after placing it that the
message would be publicly accessible. There's no mention of this on the bid
page nor is there any way to edit the message after the fact. Both of these
sound like issues that should be addressed.

Other than that I like the idea. Although, the only reason I can think of why
a developer would use btcworkers rather than your USD counterparts would be
for anonymity (read: avoid paying income tax). What are the other benefits to
being paid in bitcoins?

~~~
jrmg
_Other than that I like the idea. Although, the only reason I can think of why
a developer would use btcworkers rather than your USD counterparts would be
for anonymity (read: avoid paying income tax). What are the other benefits to
being paid in bitcoins?_

I think you know this, but perhaps not all readers do: you still are actually
required to pay tax on earnings in BTC - just not declaring the income is
illegal (and the authorities _are_ likely to notice if you're making a large
amount of it and converting it back to your home currency to spend).

~~~
s_henry_paulson
What if you were to get paid in something really non-traditional, like goats.

i.e. - I build a fence for a farmer, and he gives me 7 goats.

What do I owe the IRS?

~~~
jrmg
You are required to count the fair market value of the goats as income.

~~~
stevesearer
Hypothetically, what if you only bartered and never used 'money'? Would you be
required to sell a goat or cow in order to get the cash to pay taxes? Would
someone from the IRS just show up and take a goat to sell if you didn't pay?

~~~
jrmg
Heh, good question. I've never thought about it. Looking on Wikipedia, it does
appear that you'd have to come up with the money from _somewhere_ :

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartering#Tax_implications>

------
RobAley
If you're using sites like this, and you're in the UK, you will need to pay
tax (in real money) on the market value (in real money) of the work you
undertake. If you're a sole trader, the bitcoins become yours, so if you are
planning to keep them and "spend" them later when their value increases, you
may be liable to capital gains tax on any appreciation in value (over a
certain amount) as with any other asset. If you are a limited company, the
bitcoins will become an asset of the company, and tax implications for
disposal are as with any other asset.

I am not an accountant, always check with yours first!

~~~
netcan
Isn't the point of bitcoins that you don't have to pay tax on them?

~~~
RobAley
It may be the intention of the creators and users. However, in the UK at
least, tax law is quite clear that you have to pay tax if you perform work in
return for a "consideration", be that cash, bitcoins, donkeys, sex or music
(for example).

Although the creators of laws don't always have in mind what happens online
(often because they were created before the internet), most laws are broad
enough that they cover new creations like bitcoins.

People & businesses have often tried to avoid paying tax by "swapping
services" (e.g. accountant does developers accounts in return for a web site,
and vice-versa), so the tax laws are deliberately broad to cover all "novel"
non-monetary forms of payment.

Of course, you can only be found guilty of tax evasion if you are caught...

~~~
netcan
Laws may theoretically cover those things, but that doesn't mean they are
effective. I'd like to see them try to tax a sex and music based economy.

~~~
RobAley
It might be interesting to see what value the taxman puts on my bedroom antics
(I'd like to think my services appreciate rather than depreciate over time...)

However the taxman has a useful trick, in that she can tax based on the
(monetary) market value of the thing being "bought". So if you have sex with
me in return for me developing your (£xxxx worth) iOS app, and the taxman
finds out (during audit : "who developed that app, and how much did you pay?")
she'll WILL come knocking on my door for payment (in cash, unfortunately, the
Queen doesn't accept nookie). In the UK the taxman has a long history of
investigating and taxing non-monetary transactions.

Casual transactions between the public will probably slip under the radar, but
try earning any significant "sex and music" as a business or self employed,
and you run a reasonable risk of getting caught out.

------
nnnnnn
You should really consider price floors for certain categories (take
crowdspring as an example). For example, there's someone on your site offering
1 BTC (~$12 USD) for a logo...I'm not even a designer and I know that's an
awful price.

Sites without floors tend towards high-volume, low-quality projects listed. I
am not saying you should have market prices, but having some reasonable floors
will give the site better quality.

~~~
paweln
An option to filter out offers by minimum price would be sufficient.
Introducing price floors would decrease number of offers which the site
doesn't have much yet.

~~~
FuzzyDunlop
It would, however, increase the quality of the offers. I'd go elsewhere if I
had to make some sort of effort to hide what may as well be spam.

~~~
paweln
I don't think this is such an effort to filter offers, you would just need
once to setup a preference to not show certain type of offers you're not
interested in (e.g. show only top 20%).

What do you mean by quality of the offers? Maybe you just want to eliminate
cheap competition which has better quality/price ratio?

There may be demand for cheap services in developing countries and there may
be people willing to work for such money there. Wouldn't you want to receive
cheap service yourself? Cheap doesn't always need to mean poor quality.

If someone wants quality work done he is probably aware he won't get it for 1
BTC, but maybe it would be enough for him.

Bitcoin was created for freedom of exchange and any limitations would hurt the
market.

~~~
flyinRyan
As a general rule, you get what you pay for. Further, allowing anything on the
site is going to lead to the same problem as all the others: as a developer
you open the page to see an endless sea of requests to make a facebook clone
for $5.

------
almost
You might want to split up your "Python/Perl" category. While Python does have
_some_ similarities to Perl they're not quite suitable for lumping together
any more than say PHP and Perl or Java and C++ for example.

------
netcan
I think a lot of the things being built around bitcoin at this stage are
for/by enthusiasts. But, riding on the recent theme of coming up with startup
ideas, the seems like good ground for an exercise.

If bit coin keeps gaining traction, where will it spread to first? Here are
some of my thoughts:

 _Markets where chargebacks are a big problem_ : (1)easily resalable physical
goods (ipods, supplements), (2)Gambling.

 _International ecommerce_ : (1) This already involves more than one currency.
(2)Fraud is a bigger problem (3)transaction fees are higher (4) transaction
times are higher.

 _International ecommerce - problematic markets_ : (1) high fraud markets that
CCs/Paypal don't serve. (2)restricted currency markets(

 _P-2-P Markets_ : (1)mutual fraud concerns. (2) no "customer" that needs
figure out bitcoin.

 _Avoid official detection_ : (1)drugs/illegal markets (2) bitcoin tax
haven.(3)money laundering & other criminal banking needs.

*I notice a theme in my thinking: bitcoin as a credit card replacement.

~~~
rmc
Why do you think chargebacks are a problem?

They are a problem and annoyance for merchants, yes; but a great benefit for
consumers. Can you imagine buying ipods of randomer on the internet and once
you send the money, it's gone. They can send you a box of sand instead and
there's nothing you can do. That's a disadvantage to consumers.

~~~
rytis
The idea is behind chargebacks is good, but the implementation is somewhat
lacking. An example, my wife has an online shop, and (unsuprisingly) uses
Paypal. A company bought an item from her. The transaction went smoothly, they
paid, she shipped the item. Unfortunately, the card details they used to pay
with got stolen. So they chargedback a number of transactions that has been
made with this card. One of them was my wife's. Here's what my wife had to do:
dispute chargeback with Paypal; get in touch with the buyer and ask the buyer
to inform their bank that this transaction was legit. Then wait 6 months.
Eventually she got paid back, bar the PAypal "processing fee", which wasn't a
lot, but since the item was pretty cheap, it ate all the profit she made. We
tried to get this paid back, but to no avail. Now, it's good that the buyer
charged back accidentally and acknowledged it. But there are lots of who do
this for profit, and with the broken banking/paypal customer (as in
'merchant') support system, have fun getting your money back. This is why
chargebacks might be a problem.

~~~
Nursie
Again, they are a problem for sellers. More people are sellers these days, but
we gear our consumer law and financial devices to advantage buyers. Buyers are
more often the people with more to lose, and are certainly more numerous.
Buyers have been ripped off throughout history and we have learned, slowly, to
make things easier for them.

Economically, if you don't build in buyer protection, they may stay away
entirely.

~~~
rytis
You see, I'm not saying that buyer protection is bad, but the payment provider
companies should offer the same level of support to merchants. Now for a buyer
(legit or fraudulent) it only takes couple of clicks to get their money back.
And it is virtually impossible for a seller to dispute this.

~~~
Nursie
I understand that must be frustrating as a seller, and perhaps the balance has
shifted too far, but consumer history has taught us that having this
relationship tilted in favour of the buyer is a good thing.

------
UntitledNo4
I had a quick look at the jobs offered on the website and I found those as
example: WordPress template: budget 12 BTC (~115EUR?) PHP: add more currencies
to BT converter site: budget 5BTC(~50EUR?) DE to EN translation: 3BTC
(~30EUR?) (conversions are very inaccurate, I just wanted to get an idea)

My question is: is there something about Bitcoin that I am missing that would
entice people to work for such low rates? If someone came up to me and asked
me to do any of those jobs for those EUR rates, I would decline unless they
are either very good customers of mine or I really fancied them.

This is a serious question, not criticism. I'd like to know whether there is
an allure to Bitcoin that I'm completely missing that would make people agree
to work for less "real" (i.e. not-Bitcoin) money.

Thank you.

~~~
bencoder
If you look at similar platforms based on "real" money (as you put it), you
will see these are actually relatively high budgets for these projects. Take a
look through the projects over on odesk and weep: <https://www.odesk.com>

Given that though, yes there is an allure to bitcoin. Many people believe they
will be worth more in future, so may willing to work for lower rates in order
to get some and participate in the "bitcoin economy".

~~~
UntitledNo4
Yes, I know the rates in USD/GBP/EUR, and that's why I was asking. I had a
quick look at odesk and the rates are lower than I would normally charge
myself for the things that I do.

That's what made me curious, but your answer makes a point, but then it means
people are taking a punt on the Bitcoin.

------
tekknolagi
It is not clear at all how to make a listing after signing up.

I would create a big button that says "CREATE LISTING" like StackOverflow has
for asking a question

Also, is there a way to add a category/request that one be added? There's no
"Ruby" section and I was looking to post a listing.

------
kushti
Thumbs up! My SEO/SMO service marketplace <http://marketplace.rankgrow.com>
will accept BTC soon also!

------
bdcravens
The idea of my time having variable value is a bit scary (trading at a bit
over $12 currently, but I'm not sure what will happen when the payout drops
soon). Then again, that's what working for a VC-backed startup is: the
possibility that my development effort might not pay off. That said, the
startup has significant potential, whereas working for Bitcoins will not
likely have the upside to justify the risk.

~~~
javert
The value of the US dollar is variable, too.

~~~
grey-area
USD is far less volatile than BTC though isn't it?

~~~
praxeologist
You can immediately exchange BTC for USD, so the volatility of BTC truly isn't
a great concern. There's a very small chance that you could receive BTC, and
when you are not paying attention for a day or so there is a sudden sharp
change, maybe -1/3 max realistically, in BTC value. The move could always be
to the upside too. I think we'll have >$100BTC within 2 years.

~~~
grey-area
Volatility is a concern if you want BTC to be a viable currency for storing
value and setting prices rather than just a quick medium of exchange.
Currencies like USD may fluctuate but they are a bet on the long-term
stability of the US, and are tightly regulated, even if that power is
sometimes abused to debase the currency.

One of the main problems with Bitcoin from my perspective is that nothing
backs its value; the value is unregulated and purely arbitrary and thus
subject to all kinds of manipulation and confidence tricks. The current price
depends entirely on confidence. It's an interesting experiment but I wouldn't
want to store value in such a currency, and if you can't reliably store value
or reliably price goods in it vis a vis other currencies, it's more like a
payment method than a currency.

~~~
javert
_Currencies like USD may fluctuate but they are a bet on the long-term
stability of the US, and are tightly regulated, even if that power is
sometimes abused to debase the currency._

Pretty much every fact you name in that sentence is part of why I'm storing
some of my value in bitcoin. I wouldn't count on the long-term stability of
the US.

 _One of the main problems with Bitcoin from my perspective is that nothing
backs its value_

Nothing backs the value of gold, either. Come to think of it, I'm not sure the
whole "backing" concept is _really_ valid. I mean, yes, saying currency X is
backed by metal Y is giving you useful info, but metal Y is always just a
commodity.

 _the value is unregulated and purely arbitrary and thus subject to all kinds
of manipulation and confidence tricks._

That's somewhat the case now becuase the market is pretty illiquid (bitcoin is
only used by geeks). If/when the market is really liquid and the total value
stored in bitcoin is enormous, that won't be the case anymore.

 _The current price depends entirely on confidence._

That bothers me too. But, ultimately, there will always be a demand to store
value, and bitcoin is a good candidate, since there is a fixed number of them.
If bitcoin were to become really big, whenever there were a price dip,
speculators would jump in and bring it up again. And I think we've already
reached that point to a large degree. It seems like there really is a floor on
the value of bitcoin (and this will be increasingly true, and the floor will
get increasingly higher, as bitcoin becomes more popular). You just aren't
gonna see gold go down to $500/oz in current USD; nor are you going to see
bitcoin go down to $3 (if it does, I and a ton of other people will be
snapping it up as fast as possible... which is why it won't get there in the
first place).

Actually, it could go down to (say) $3 if a big holder of bitcoins dumped them
all suddenly and irraionally, since the market isn't that liquid, but there
would be an immediate price correction, so it would just be a temporary blip.

------
donebizkit
One suggestion. May be you should add couple of entries in your FAQ about
Bitcoin and what's the value of trading in it instead of currency.

------
djisjke
Ok, I created an account, but apparently there were some kind of hiccup and
now I can't login. There is no information to get about it, and there doesnt
seem to be any way to reset the password.

Please fix that so I can sell my services!

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odddogmedia
A character limit note in the Edit Details textarea would be helpful, or at
least if the form fields remembered what I typed in before displaying an
error. It wiped out everything I'd written up.

------
cavilling_elite
One comment, in the browse section put an indicator of how many projects are
in each category.

For instance:

Python/Perl (0)

Cool site. Good luck!

------
Techasura
Basics: put a "forgot password" link please. User gets annoyed if he doesn't
have a password reset option.

------
jaequery
i'll try it once bitcoins gets easier to use. at the moment, it's too much of
a headache/hassle/mystery.

~~~
frisco
Bitcoin's really easy to use.

    
    
      1. Download the client from bitcoin.org.
      2. Launch it and let it sync with the network. (Unfortunately this takes a long time upfront.)
      3. Use the "Send Coins" and "Receive Coins" tabs to send and receive coins.
    

Buying Bitcoins with credit cards is still somewhat annoying, but not hard.
See
[https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Buying_Bitcoins_(the_newbie_versi...](https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Buying_Bitcoins_\(the_newbie_version\)),
or for a more complete version, here:
<https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Buying_bitcoins>

If you wanted to go with a hosted service instead of running the Bitcoin
client on your own computer, there are many available. A few include:

    
    
      - https://blockchain.info/wallet/
      - https://www.mtgox.com/
      - https://www.coinbase.com  (YCS12)

~~~
bencoder
Also consider using the electrum client. It uses remote servers for the
blockchain, so you don't need to download and sync with the network, while you
keep the private keys for your wallet, so you don't need to trust a remote
service: <http://electrum.ecdsa.org/>

It also generates new addresses deterministically from an initial seed, which
you can write down and keep securely or remember in your brain, allowing you
to recover your entire wallet if you lose access to your computer.

~~~
graue
I was curious if this was secure. Apparently you are trusting the server you
retrieve blockchain information from, and could be defrauded if that server is
compromised:

[https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Thin_Client_Security#Server-
Trust...](https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Thin_Client_Security#Server-
Trusting_Clients)

Looks like a downside worth keeping in mind with Electrum.

~~~
bencoder
Yes it is slightly less secure. But you can't really "lose" money so much.
What can happen is the server can report that you have money that you don't
actually have, so if you were expecting to receive some coins, and the
attacker had control over one of the servers, they could make you believe you
had received them.

There are several stratum servers however, and you can disconnect from one and
check with another. I think the plan is to eventually connect to multiple and
make sure that they agree. This doesn't prevent a possible man in the middle
though if all your communication is being tapped. Personally I think this
slight risk is worth it for the instant start times and the deterministic
wallet. And it's still considerably more secure than the online hosted
wallets, where you are not in control of your coins at all.

~~~
graue
With security I'm interested in the situation right now, not what the plan is
to do eventually. If I were to get ripped off, it's no consolation knowing
that someone was planning to fix the bug later when they got around to it.

The attack described is a serious one. If someone compromises (or colludes
with) the server, they could “buy” 100 BTC worth of stuff from you without
really paying. You send the stuff, and you're 100 BTC poorer. In the end it's
as if you'd been robbed. Same result.

With an online hosting service, like Coinbase, I think it's rather obvious
you're trusting them, just as you would trust PayPal or a bank. You can make
an informed decision whether you trust them (and their security) based on
reputation.

The Electrum website, in contrast, hides the fact that I'm trusting a third
party and makes no mention of who that third party is or why they deserve my
trust. IMHO, they should disclose exactly what's going on very prominently.
But they don't. As a person new to Bitcoin, based on what I know so far, I
would sooner go with Coinbase than Electrum.

------
alexbosworth
Would be cool to see bitcoin services use your bitcoin identity instead of
email

~~~
frisco
How would that work? Bitcoin doesn't really provide an identity.

~~~
hxc
Yup. Bitcoin is meant to be anonymous.

~~~
frisco
This is a common misconception. Bitcoin isn't anonymous, but there isn't
really a way to use your addresses as an "identity" easily, either. Sure you
could use a Bitcoin address as the keypair it is to authenticate yourself, but
that seems like an odd way to sign up for a service.

------
bakztfuture
great concept, I'd love to see what other eCommerce sites and apps will be
created as a result of growth in the popularity (as well as the wider usage)
of the Bitcoin currency.

------
nacho2sweet
I can't pay my rent in bitcoins tho.

~~~
frisco
There are many exchanges that trade BTC against traditional currencies (for
example, mtgox, btc-e, or bitstamp). It's very easy to convert BTC into USD or
EUR.

------
rjzzleep
... or bypass your way around immigration laws. haha, gg dude

