
Ask HN: Is working on online casinos unethical? - bjourne
I think I think (yes..) that it is. Because you are creating technology that almost certainly is making the world worse. The amount of joy people get from gambling for fun is outweighed by the amount of grief gambling addiction causes. And even if it isn&#x27;t, most online casinos are designed in such a way to attract addicts. I&#x27;m not very sure of my opinion, so I&#x27;d like to hear what everyone else thinks!<p>Edit: Ops. Should have mentioned that in my part of the world, online gambling is <i>not</i> illegal.
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ainiriand
Tl;dr - Yes.

The first source of money for online casinos is not the money that the poor
addict pours into it, it is the huge money laundering operations that are done
in the back. Online casinos are not based in places that you will imagine
particular transparent in terms of tax policy. They are based in Malta
(russian money), Gibraltar (UK money) or in places like the Caiman Islands,
Panama... A journalist was murdered in Malta for just speaking about this.

~~~
driverdan
You're assuming that money laundering is unethical.

~~~
falcolas
Is there an argument in favor of it (money laundering) being ethical? The most
I can think of is anonymity for the general public, but is this an actual use
case?

~~~
pmarreck
Let's suppose it's 1775 and the American rebels want to fund an arguably-just
fight against the ruling British.

Or let's suppose you run a VPN in China that allows the Chinese to arguably-
justifiably access Western websites, and you need to launder your funds.

Or perhaps you're a spy inside ISIS and need to hide the fact that you're
getting funded by the US.

Or perhaps you're in Iran and want to leave, but since Iran doesn't permit you
to bring any money out of the country, you (arguably ethically and
justifiably) decide to get it out via Bitcoins.

Being able to launder money is arguably very similar to being able to maintain
privacy, which means it falls under Martin Fowler's excellent argument for
privacy: [https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-
privacy.htm...](https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.html)

I have never argued for money laundering in my life, but guys... you have to
stop seeing everything in black-and-white.

~~~
falcolas
So, general anonymity, as I mentioned above. My (admittedly only implied)
question around this usecase is: is it a real usecase, or purely theoretical?

~~~
pmarreck
Well, I did donate BTC to a cause in Africa (forget the country) that was at
odds with the government which was taking a steep cut of any incoming money

------
lodi
My rule of thumb: will your customers regret their purchase in hindsight? If
you suspect most of them will, then yes, it's unethical to collect their money
now.

Elsewhere in this thread people have compared casinos to video games, tobacco,
and facebook. Video games run a full spectrum from predatory to wholesome, so
you'd have to look at that on a case-by-case basis. I regret some, but
definitely not most of the games I've bought/played. I'm not a smoker, but I
think most smokers would prefer to not need to smoke. Looking at it another
way, I don't think any smokers would prefer that their _children_ start
smoking, so in my view tobacco is unethical. Facebook has both saved and
ruined lives so it's in a grey zone for me.

By this test, casinos/lotteries/etc. land firmly in the far unethical side of
the spectrum for me personally, but you might have a different view based on
your own experiences. Ideally someone would find hard data to support one view
or another.

------
bartedinburgh
I used to work for one and was not proud of it because I felt our products did
not provide any value.

My boss had this theory how betting small amounts of money is just another
form of entertainment people enjoy, just like going to the cinema or playing a
video game, and thus we were in the entertainment business. I didn't really
buy it and I wondered if he truly believed it himself.

Not everyone has a chance to work on world-changing, truly innovative stuff,
but there's a lot of productive, useful work to be done, and I just think that
online betting is not one of them.

~~~
brango
Except something like 90% of revenue comes from 5% of "players" so it's
obviously just what he told himself to placate his conscience that he wasn't
ripping off addicts.

~~~
candiodari
How is this different from Apps on the playstore ?
Insurance/Banking/consultancy ? Or, I have to say, sometimes I wonder how the
amounts people spend on music truly vary. The merchandising for most bands
means that if you really want to spend millions on a band, you can (e.g. the
"pharma bro" Wu-Tang clan saga). Bands themselves say that this is where most
of their income comes from ...

This whale principle certainly seems to cover quite a bit of the economy.

Even movies are similar. You want to spend a million (or a few) on star wars ?
Not a problem. [1]

From a psychological standpoint I would strongly suggest that you never make
it your mission to save people from themselves. There's only 2 ways you come
out of that experience: evil (lost belief in mankind, and therefore anything
goes), or mad.

[1] [http://mentalfloss.com/article/53388/6-most-expensive-
pieces...](http://mentalfloss.com/article/53388/6-most-expensive-pieces-star-
wars-memorabilia)

~~~
brango
The question is about ethics. How is it relevant whether other people are
taking advantage of addicts as well?

~~~
candiodari
I'm just saying that, to varying extents, large portions of the economy are
"taking advantage of" addicts. Certainly if you work for FANG, they all
(including Amazon) have their addicts. As do things like reddit, in fact
probably most sites.

You cannot let your life be controlled by "ethics" like this. It's not
reasonable.

------
pikiejoe
I know friends that work in online gambling, they say they are more ashamed of
people who work in banking, hft, defense (offense?) contractors, Facebook or
Google. Why? Because all the above have tangible negative effects on society.

We need an engineering code of conduct - too many tech folk happy to take a
dollar in return for building stuff that makes the world a worse place.

~~~
runeb
Sounds like whataboutism. Pointing at the dirty neighbors does not clean your
own house.

~~~
pikiejoe
So you are confirming the neighbour does indeed have a dirty house too?

~~~
runeb
No, I am pointing out it doesn’t matter.

------
ryandrake
Disclaimer: I am a recreational poker player, and have interacted with all
sorts of rec players from serious semi-pros to weekend tourist players to
total degenerate gamblers. The answer to this question will inevitably be
personal and will vary based on your own personal ethics.

As someone who _has_ quit a job partially over an ethical objection to the
product subject matter (it was a surveillance system), I would have no problem
at all taking a job at an online casino.

In terms of societal value, I don't see much of a difference between a
gambling site and an online stock brokerage or financial trading firm. They're
both zero-sum games, where the host takes a cut of the profit. Both can
equally lead people to financial ruin, and can be equally addictive. So if
you'd work for E-trade or even a hedge fund, why wouldn't you work for
PokerStars?

In terms of legality, OP has already specified that it's legal in his/her
region, so there should be no moral objection there.

In terms of providing end user value, at least they are providing
entertainment value. There are plenty of worse tech jobs where you simply
exploit end users and others reap most of the actual product value.

Other commenters have covered the Video Game / tobacco / Facebook angles so I
won't go there.

OP, if you managed to find a job offer at one of these gaming companies (you
didn't mention that), then congratulations. My understanding is that online
gaming industry is quite like the video game industry, where it's tougher than
average for an "outsider" to break into the industry.

------
staticelf
Is working for McDonalds unethical? Well yes, because people get obese and
live shorter lives.

Is working for Tobacco companies unethical? Well yes, because people die from
cancer which was caused from smoking for example.

Is working for the bank unethical? Well yes, because most banks make people
buy bonds that have a high profit for the banks but lower for the customers.

Is working for your local grocery store unethical? Well yes, because you are
again making people fat by placing candy at the exit so you profit more.

Everything is unethical to some extent, just decided what level you want to be
on and be happy.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Hm. Sounds like temporizing. Clearly, working to produce a deliberately
addictive product that is corrosive to health and happiness, is bad. If the
product has any redeeming feature, and a reasonable legitimate market, isn't
that different in more than a qualitative way?

If I worked at McD's National, and were juggling fat/salt/sugar to produce the
most addictive fries, then I'd call that unethical. But to sell beef burgers
to folks in a hurry for lunch, no.

~~~
staticelf
> But to sell beef burgers to folks in a hurry for lunch, no.

Even if the person you're selling to is obese and will likely die an early
death if the person in question continues his or hers behavior?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I would be a terrible counter person. I wouldn't sell to the addicted, just
like a bartender has to cut off drunks. And I'd probably get fired. So yeah.

------
thehardsphere
I'm going to play devil's advocate here; I don't actually know what my own
opinion about this is, and I never gamble online so I don't even know much
about it or how horrible it might be. So I'm going to ask you a bunch of
questions that should hopefully help you work out exactly how you got to your
opinion and either change it or hold it more firmly.

Why do you say "online casinos are designed in such a way to attract addicts"?
Aren't they just designed to attract people who want to use them, which
happens to include addicts?

Aren't you assuming that addicts are helpless people with absolutely no agency
of their own? Given that this isn't a question of chemical dependency, aren't
they morally responsible for exercising better judgement? I mean, many people
gamble without any problems. Why should the casino be considered immoral
because of someone else's poor choices?

Is online gambling especially heinous for some reason you haven't clearly
articulated, or do you apply this thinking to other things people may become
addicted to as well with a similar joy/grief tradeoff? It would apply to
recreational drugs, I'm certain. Someone else already asked about social
media. Do you think this way about other aspects of society?

~~~
dwaltrip
What's the proper way of differentiating between chemical addiction,
experiential addiction, and neither?

~~~
thehardsphere
I only raise chemical addiction as a possible exception because nearly
everybody agrees there are ways to become addicted to certain chemicals
without somehow choosing to do so first, e.g. you get hurt in an accident that
is no fault of your own and the doctors administer medication to you that you
become addicted to.

------
jetti
Why limit to online casinos? WMS Gaming creates tons of slot and video lottery
terminals, wouldn't it be just as unethical to work there than on online
casinos?

~~~
downvote_me
Exactly. Online casinos are just the tip of the iceberg here. Unbelievably
large sums of money and grief are lost and created respectively in real world
lotteries and casinos which nowadays are almost entirely computerized - thus
made up by developers working in tech companies.

~~~
jetti
I do think that online casinos may get a worse reputation when it comes to
those in the US because online gambling is illegal so these companies that
offer it are set up outside of the US jurisdiction. Who knows what they will
pay out or if they ever do pay out. Casinos in the US are bound by the
governing body of the state they are located in to have certain payouts when
it comes to machines. Online gambling doesn't necessarily have that.

------
losteverything
No. Imo.

But your question is not ethical but your own belief system... Not ours.

Here is an example. The founder of Mothers Against drunk driving took a job
with a liquor industry (1). Now that is unethical imo

(1)
[http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1994-01-15/news/940115013...](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1994-01-15/news/9401150133_1_madd-
board-member-beckie-brown-drunk)

------
frobozz
Why do you ask? What change in your own behaviour would the different answers
elicit?

Is this just an intellectual exercise? In that case, it's a reasonable
question that might lead to an interesting conversation.

Are you thinking of working for one, but worried about how you would feel? In
that case, I don't think any amount of reassurance from internet strangers
would help.

Are you worried about how others might view you if you have it on your CV?
That may be a valid concern, but in that case, it's an XY problem.

Are you looking at a pile of CVs, and thinking about whether to reject someone
on these "ethical" grounds? You don't know what predicament caused the
candidate to take that job, or to (want to) leave it, or the exact nature of
what they did there.

If you work on technology that can help to identify harmful play and intervene
appropriately, then you are probably creating technology that makes the world
better, even if you are doing so for a company whose other products may be
making the world worse.

------
vide0star
Tl;dr No

The field of probability was invented by largely French philosophers wanting
to understand the math behind casino games. Casino games are nothing more (or
less) than pure math. The 'unethical' part of casino comes from operators
extracting too large of an edge. Obviously, the operator needs to make
something to get paid to run the game, but the 'house edge' can be around 10%.

When thinking about gambling being ethical or not, IMO the important question
is the price of the risk, not the mechanic of money traded for risk. Money for
risk is very common (think insurance for example). Nobody would argue
insurance is unethical. But if a home owner policy cost the price of the house
annually, people would consider that unethical.

------
gnode
Weighing the harm of loss against the benefit of entertainment is one way to
decide. An alternative viewpoint is whether the freedom to gamble is more or
less important than protecting the irresponsible.

You may also want to consider that your non-participation in an activity may
not affect whether it happens or not. Arguably, there will always be a
provider of gambling services where it is legal (and maybe even where it
isn't). From this perspective, the most ethical choice may be to be to provide
the most ethical gambling service. However, this may be commercially
challenging.

Ultimately, only you can decide whether this is ethical, as ethics is
subjective.

------
jermaustin1
As a person who enjoys playing the lotto, losing money in poker, and buying
high/selling low, yes. It is unethical. But most things that are fun are. I
feel OK with gambling and do it every day in one of those three activities,
but I have an income to support losing a few hundred dollars per day and it
only kind of hurt.

I wish that casinos had to do more to ensure the person gambling had the
ability to lose the money, but that adds a lot of regulatory burdens that a
lot of people would find onerous on free market enterprises (I don't, but that
is a political discussion not meant for this topic).

------
bdz
Hard to answer.

Actually I'd really hear answers about a similar question: Is working on p2w
games unethical?

I was wondering about that in connection with the whole Battlefront 2 fiasco.
EA got a lot of flak but I remember when Apple announced the in-app purchase
for free apps back in 2009. Feels like it was only yesterday but that was when
a lot of things clearly changed.

[https://techcrunch.com/2009/10/15/apple-announces-in-app-
pur...](https://techcrunch.com/2009/10/15/apple-announces-in-app-purchases-
for-free-iphone-applications/)

~~~
falcolas
The question is, in my mind, is P2W (or even, controversially, cosmetic loot
boxes) gaming different than gambling? Does the fact that your rewards are
digital instead of monetary really matter when discussing addiction?

Obviously my answer is that yes, it is unethical. The problem is (and this
applies to gambling as well) that it's too damned profitable for companies to
give it up without a huge fight.

------
pmarreck
> The amount of joy people get from gambling for fun is outweighed by the
> amount of grief gambling addiction causes.

Show me some empirical data backing this belief and you might have an actual
argument.

Gambling (in moderation) is literally the only thing my parents have in common
(other than mutual respect), and they've been together nearly 50 years.

I have definitely enjoyed my trips to Mohegan Sun, Atlantic City and Las
Vegas, even if I've lost money on the trip.

The vast majority of people who gamble are not addicted to it and participate
in moderation.

------
jbob2000
Here's the argument from an Effective Altruism perspective: if you want to
earn money from gambling, you should offset the "badness" with some
"goodness". Volunteer your skills for charity or open source, and contribute
money to high impact charities (maybe even ones that help gamblers?).

------
Apreche
Yes. A casino exists only to take advantage of vulnerable individuals and
drain them of their money. It is an immoral business. Therefore, working to
help a casino is also immoral.

~~~
dtft
Devils advocate argument:

I work at an e-commerce company that is designed and incentivized to sell as
much product as possible. Are we taking advantage of "shopping addicts"? Where
is the line drawn between capitalism and morality?

Sidenote: Casinos also exist to provide entertainment value. I don't mind
spending $20 on blackjack just to play with my friends and talk with new
people. Just because there is a subset of individuals that can't handle that
entertainment responsibly doesn't mean that the business itself is immoral.

~~~
jordan_
Very good point. The distinction may be that a casino operates on the premise
that playing will make you rich some lucky day - whereas when you shop,
financial loss is not obfuscated away as a means to your big payday.

~~~
Clubber
Yes, but the marketing machine still makes you want that shiny thing that you
don't need. It will make you happy for about 5 minutes.

------
ghosttie
Yes.

In my opinion casinos take advantage of a loophole in human psychology to take
money from people who can't afford it, so having anything to do with that is
unethical.

------
jonnycomputer
as unethical as working for tobacco companies.

~~~
hapless
Tobacco industry is made up of wholly legal and aboveboard business
enterprises with many happy users.

They have a long history of malicious behavior, but it is not, on the face of
it, wrong to take such a job.

But I still might avoid it, myself. Once bitten, twice shy. You spend fifty
years conspiring to conceal damages to your own customers and maybe I prefer
not to work for you even after you stop doing it

~~~
ademup
Just because an endeavor is legal, does not make it ethical. I agree with
parent: working for a casino is about as unethical as working for a tobacco
company. Your work will unquestionably lead to harm in the lives of others.

~~~
Clubber
Yes, but that applies to just about every programming job too. Is programming
unethical? I mean your are automating jobs away. It certainly harms lives.

~~~
jonnycomputer
By that measure taking a job is unethical because it takes away a job that
another might perform...

Yes, working for an industry that does harm to people is unethical. However,
the censure that is deserved is proportional to the the "status" of the
position they occupy in the industry, e.g. CEOs > Professionals > Blue Collar
> Part Timers. Its not just the influence the different people have on the
industries or companies they work in, its also a function of their autonomy. A
lot of people have little choice but to take whatever job they can get,
because they have other obligations as well: to their selves, to their
families, and to their communities.

~~~
Clubber
Programmers have to have jobs just as much as blue collar people. I mean
everything except (possibly) the CEO _has_ to work for income.

------
expertentipp
With job market as it is in EU and recruitment hell in the industry I would
take any decently paying job, sorry.

------
PatientTrades
No it is not. Every company to some extent, does something that can be viewed
as unethical. Whether its selling user data without notice, or fancy tax
practices, etc. The old saying "Don't throw stones if you live in a glass
house" applies here.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
We can argue our way into genocide and war that way. Anything, really.

Yes there are some purely counterproductive businesses. Online casinos may be
that, if they are designed solely to fleece people and hook the addicted.

------
donatj
It really depends on your own position on Gambling. I'm of the mind that the
same kind of person who throws money away at a Casino would have thrown it
away somewhere else. I see nothing wrong with selling a person a service they
want.

------
tmdk
It depends on what the profits are used for.

------
SirLJ
What about Facebook, it is also designed to be addictive, so you can spend as
much time on it as possible to be shown ads?

~~~
devscreen
Hardly a fair comparison. You will not blow your (and potentially your
family's) savings by browsing facebook and seeing being shown ads.

~~~
cabalamat
> You will not blow your (and potentially your family's) savings by browsing
> facebook and seeing being shown ads.

Ads often incite people to buy things. This must work at least some of the
time, or ads wouldn't exist. So some people do spend their money on
unnecessary junk through browsing facebook.

~~~
C4stor
To be fair, a good share (I'd say most ? But data is needed ^^) of advertising
is designed to make you prefer a brand over an other once you decided you want
a new product. I'm not sure there's really a lot designed to make you do a buy
decision without a preexisting want (<\--- I'm trying to avoid the word need
here, because it's definitely not a need, but my english isn't good enough)

You argument still holds that advertising still makes you possibily spend more
for the exact same thing, but it's hardly comparable to gambling addictive
behaviours in my opinion.

~~~
wu-ikkyu
It's seems to me the massive advertising machine in the US produces far more
collateral damage (in the form of environmental degradation from people buying
junk designed with planned obsolescense) than gambling.

------
gcb0
most mobile and console game companies sleep jjust fine making those
technologies for kids.

~~~
GFischer
There are definitely unethical mobile game companies that are as bad or worse
than online casinos, but there are also wholesome ones.

------
hapless
It's illegal. Working for people who break the law for money is generally
considered to be unethical.

Even if you, personally, feel OK about it, ask yourself what would happen if a
prospective (future) employer found out about your activities.

~~~
Kurtz79
Not touching the moral issue, but online gambling is definitely legal in many
countries in Europe, where vastly advertised and known betting and poker
websites exist.

