
Edward Snowden: Classified US data shows Hong Kong hacking targets - teawithcarl
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1260306/edward-snowden-classified-us-data-shows-hong-kong-hacking-targets
======
pdeuchler
What is with HN?!

Just because they are Chinese means they don't deserve basic human liberties?
Just because you live in a different country doesn't mean you lose these
rights, they may not be recognized but you are still entitled to them.

Furthermore, there's an extremely large cognitive dissonance here. China owns
trillions of US national debt... this is debt that the leaders of our country
have given willingly, and gladly pocketed the resulting cash. How is that any
less treason than alerting our lenders that their systems have been broken
into?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that
they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

Chinese, American, British, Pakistani, Russian, French, it _doesn 't matter_.
The targeting of innocents by drones is wrong no matter where you are from,
why does the right to privacy and property (or happiness, depending on your
school of philosophy) not follow that same logic?

Perhaps we should be more concerned that we are continuing to pick petty
fights with our fellow man over ideologies, rather than the fact that one man
is perceived to have violated our specific ideology. But I guess my idealist
is showing.

My 2 cents.

~~~
slg
What is with HN?!

Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you can exaggerate your
point. China doesn't "own trillions of US national debt" like you suggest.
Plus that debt is "given willingly, and gladly" to them because they purchase
it. We are after all a capitalist system. If China is willing to pay more for
US debt than Japan (who holds somewhere between 80% and 90% of the amount that
China holds last time I check), than they should have the right to purchase
it. Just because they are Chinese doesn't mean they don't deserve the same
basic free market opportunities.

Perhaps we should be more concerned with the issue at hand instead of
tangentially mentioning an issue we don't know a whole lot about in the hopes
that no one will point out our mistakes.

My 2 cents.

~~~
pdeuchler
I don't see where we disagree[1], but perhaps your argument is lost in the
attempt to parody my post?

[1] Minus the "trillions" bit... see posts below. Perhaps "over a trillion"
would have been a better phrase.

~~~
slg
_" China owns trillions of US national debt... this is debt that the leaders
of our country have given willingly, and gladly pocketed the resulting cash.
How is that any less treason than alerting our lenders that their systems have
been broken into?"_

A passage like this perpetuates the misconception that China owns a dangerous
portion of US debt. It is stretching the facts of the case so it better
supports your argument. They own 1.25 trillion, which is not "trillions". It
is also less than either the Federal Reserve or Social Security trust hold and
right around the last numbers I saw for private US holders. The phrasing you
use to explain the transaction makes it seem like the US government shouldn't
sell this type of debt to China. In your post you are claiming that the
Chinese should have the same level of human rights as us but that we shouldn't
provide them the same level of economic rights? Finally it is also
disingenuous to say that our leaders "gladly pocketed the resulting cash".
That implies some sort of embezzlement, which is just furthered by your
comparison to treason.

Selling debt is a critical part of the economic equation for almost all world
governments (yes, even China). It annoys me when people state that selling
debt to China is somehow destroying this country or causing long term damage.

------
uvdiv
_The detailed records - which cannot be independently verified - show specific
dates and the IP addresses of computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland
hacked by the National Security Agency over a four-year period. [...] "I don't
know what specific information they were looking for on these machines, only
that using technical exploits to gain unauthorised access to civilian machines
is a violation of law. It's ethically dubious," Snowden said in the interview
on Wednesday._

So he has no idea what foreign entity the NSA is targeting or why, yet he
decides to warn them about it? This is supposed to be ethical, responsible
whistleblowing?

~~~
btilly
I believe that this is reasonably targeted. He does know who owns those
computers, and did not include any government computers on the list.

I know that we Americans like to see al qaeda around every corner. But, for
instance, when you target a university's system in a non-Muslim country, the
odds are much better that you're conducting industrial espionage than that
you're targeting al qaeda.

At the least, from a public policy point of view, it shows the hypocrisy of
recent articles in the USA complaining about the extent of Chinese hacking
into US civilian targets.

~~~
minimax
_He does know who owns those computers, and did not include any government
computers on the list._

It's completely possible that these computers (or netblocks) were used as
jumping off points for attacks against the U.S. or U.S. companies. We'll
probably never know, but there certainly isn't enough information in the
article to determine whether or not this was legitimate counterintelligence
activity or whether these computers were reasonably targeted.

------
teawithcarl
I don't get the sense Snowden is pro-China, or that his goal is to defect to
China. Definitely however, these new classified disclosures raise temperatures
across many fronts, including his own boiling pot.

The status of his four computers (whether in his possession, or hidden
elsewhere in HK) is significant because China could overrule HK and get its
hands on all of Snowden's data if he's arrested.

I personally trust Snowden's actions, and believe his personal motives are
ethical, albeit controversial.

国民我相信，美国和中国政府不相信。

See related NY Times article.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5880362](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5880362)

~~~
somebehemoth
From the NYT article: "The data, if independently verified, could help Chinese
officials figure out which computers have been hacked, patch security holes,
itemize compromised data, analyze the quality of computer security defenses
and develop techniques for hardening other Chinese computers against future
surveillance by the N.S.A."

So he is offering aid to the Chinese government in the form of top secret US
data. I understand the need to have whistle blowers and respect that some
things need light shined on them. However, I draw the line at specifically
assisting foreign governments who are often hostile to democracy and the West.
If the reverse happened and a Chinese security contractor fled to the U.S.
with state secrets I would be less worried but I do think that person would be
a traitor to China.

~~~
regal
I've been listening to the book Spycraft, and if there's one theme that keeps
recurring, it's that things never end well for the agent informing against his
country.

The handlers often turn the guy over once he's outlived his usefulness to his
homeland, or eventually he gets gotten.

Snowden's play here seems to be that he assumes the U.S. is going to lock him
up for life or worse, so he's throwing his lot in with China and showing up
with, "Hey, here you go! Loads of free stuff!"

But he apparently doesn't know much about the Chinese, or the history of
turncoats and how these things usually play out.

Nobody trusts a traitor, not even if he showed up with plentiful offerings.
It's like having a gal cheat on her husband with you, then tell you she wants
to divorce him and marry you. No chance of her doing the same thing to you
now, right?

------
waterlesscloud
He's going to lose American support with this kind of thing.

This is more or less what the NSA is supposed to be doing, and many Americans
are going to openly support these activities. It will make many much more
sympathetic to accusations of espionage against Snowden.

Undermines the privacy concerns raised earlier, unfortunately.

~~~
gnu8
It's illegal to break into computers in all civilized countries. The director
of the NSA should be extradited to China to face justice for his crimes (after
being punished in the US for his crimes here, of course).

~~~
aneth4
It is not illegal in the US to break Chinese law. In fact, it is the job of
the NSA to gather intel, not to obey laws.

~~~
flyinRyan
Oh you can fuck right off with that. It wasn't illegal to have a linking site
in the UK yet that poor bastard was extradited for breaking US law, not having
been there. If the US wants to do that kind of shit, then hell yes if they
break laws of other countries they should get extradited there to face
charges. I'm so sick of American exceptionalism.

~~~
aneth4
I suppose we should extradite people to Iran for breaking Shariah too. This
isn't American exceptionalism. Do you think China will extradite their
military leaders for hacking US computers? Fat chance. If agents are caught in
country breaking the law, they are fair game. That's the risk. Suggesting the
US should extradite our leaders to China is armchair idiocy.

~~~
flyinRyan
>Suggesting the US should extradite our leaders to China is armchair idiocy.

So is suggesting that a guy who did something totally legal in his country
(UK) should be extradited to the US to face charges there.

~~~
aneth4
In most cases, that's probably true. I'm not apologizing for all US policies.

------
spdy
He is a smart kid. He has to position himself as a bargain chip, that`s one
reason he picked HK.

You can number the countries in this world who would be powerful enough to
withstand US pressure.

Never forget he is only 29 without an escape plan you dont make this kind of
journey. If he has to live his remaining life in China/HK he is probably fine
with that.

And please step out of your box it does not matter where someone is from. Now
everyone is screaming "traitor traitor" and you all forget what he uncovered
and brought to main media attention.

But soon he will be forgotten marked as a traitor and everything will move
back to square one. And secret courts will grant agencies powers nobody knows
about :).

~~~
vvpan
Definitely. When you have a life sentence coming your way (like in Manning's
case) anything goes. If this is a way for him to protect himself, then it is a
decision we should respect, because this is the price to be paid for his other
revelations.

------
shailesh
The pattern of events is pretty strange.

Snowden, a US citizen, chose to leak the documents to Guardian and not New
York Times, meant to be published while he is in Hong Kong, which is under
Chinese rule in the matters of foreign policy.

I'm genuinely trying to understand as to why he didn't trust a single person
from his country? With the claims of the access he made, it should have been
far easier to find one, without going to a non-US newspaper* and boarding a
plane to a nation that is not on exactly the friendliest terms to US.

(* Nothing against Guardian, it's just that the visible pieces of the puzzle
do not seem to fit together.)

It is very hard to believe that he had sweeping access levels. For one, NSA
has its own chip manufacturing facilities, teams of mathematicians and
security experts. Even if we don't know how NSA works, we can deduce from its
contributions to open source: selinux, Apache Accumulo. Surely, they are
expected to have tighter systems.

Besides, he was an employee of a contractor. Even less reason to provide
elevated access to him. So, if he has material in his hands, than his security
clearance would allow, then it is way more surprising.

Snowden's statements ought to be taken with a grain of salt.

Edited: grammar.

Update: thanks to zecho and brown9-2 for their comments; Snowden leaked it to
an American.

~~~
zecho
> I'm genuinely trying to understand as to why he didn't trust a single person
> from his country?

This is untrue. Snowden contacted The Washington Post first, according to
their account, but when they did not move as quickly as he would like, he
approached The Guardian.

However, the accounts from the Washington Post and The Guardian conflict with
one another, so it's possible he worked with both in tandem while trying not
to tip his hand to either.

------
aneth4
As much as I'm glad NSA snooping came to light, I'm very uncomfortable with a
rogue 20-something singlehandedly deciding issues of national defense. It is
not enough simply that something be illegal. IMO, something must be highly
unethical and capable of causing severe lasting harm in order to justify
turning over classified information. Snowden is not a justice, an elected
representative, or someone in general who we want deciding what we should and
shouldn't know.

~~~
nathas
> Snowden is not a justice, an elected representative, or someone in general
> who we want deciding what we should and shouldn't know

You're going to trust the people in power to make the judgement calls over
their own power....? "Hey guys we can blackmail anyone. Let's make sure that
the proper checks and balances are placed on that, I hate unlimited knowledge
and power."

~~~
aneth4
I certainly don't think every foot soldier should be deciding what needs to be
secret or not.

The definition of power is making these decisions. Those in power legitimately
deserve some latitude to excercise that power. "Those in power" is now Snowden
because he took that power illegitimately. There is a time and a place for
that, and some of these leaks may be that. Some of this is definitely
borderline.

~~~
rfugger
He's done a heroic thing, and I think he deserves some latitude in defending
himself from the unjust prosecution of those he's exposed. They brought it on
themselves.

------
asr2bd
I really don't understand this outrage about the NSA (allegedly I know, but
let's be serious) hacking Chinese targets. That's their job. The Chinese,
through hacking, have obtained highly classified information about our most
advanced weapons systems. They've stolen critical information about the F-35,
AEGIS radar, not to mention hacking US companies to steal their intellectual
property.

The internet open, free, etc but the world is still defined by borders and
national interest. Nations have always needed to collect intel to inform their
decision making and they've employed spies to do it. It just so happens the
medium that the NSA operates in is the digital one, with their spies sitting
in a big black building in Virginia instead of being some James Bond style
agent.

~~~
daywalker
Do you have any evidence to back up your first paragraph? Anything that has
stood up in a court of law? Or are you just regurgitating talking points
you've heard from the mainstream press?

------
downandout
While it's interesting to have confirmation that we are also engaging in
cyberwarfare internationally, I think this most recent disclosure is evidence
that he is in way over his head. This seems to be a desperate attempt to use
this information to win safe haven over there. The problem is that the fact
that we hack them and they hack us is not news, and no one is going to risk
trade relations with the US in order to provide safe haven to him because he
told them something they already knew. Also, he no longer has access to top
secret information. Therefore he has zero value to them as an intelligence
asset, and his mere presence is an enormous liability.

While I am grateful for what he has done, and he's welcome to hide at my place
anytime, the moment a warrant is issued, he is toast. He has overplayed his
hand, and unfortunately he is about to feel the wrath of a very vindictive US
Government. He will be locked up, likely for the rest of his life.

~~~
johnwyles
I will not agree with you that he has overplayed his hand. Obama was just
meeting with Chinese leadership not but a week ago with pleas for the
government to stop their cyber attacks on US targets. This is exposing that
hypocrisy. Additionally he could be an asset to the Chinese government because
he likely has MUCH more information than is being made public. However, I
think because of his strict ideals to do no harm I think he will be unlikely
to cooperate with them on divulging anything that would be of substance to the
Chinese government. All that said I think he may still have information he
wants to make light of and so, simply because he still does not have access to
this information, does not mean he does not having something explosive waiting
to be revealed. I think he is a liability to the HK and Chinese governments
but they are not easy to kowtow to the US demands simply on the grounds that
he has violated laws which HK does not recognize themselves. Grab some
popcorn, this will develop much more interestingly than I think you think it
will.

------
jv22222
I can't quite understand what Snowdon is trying to do here. Maybe I'm missing
something, but it seems the most likely outcome from this revelation is to
alienate his existing supporters in the USA and to possibly seed a cold war
with China.

~~~
apalmer
There is already a hot cyber war going on with China, it isn't even really
'classified', I am sure the full extent is classified, but its well known that
china's cyber force have been relentlessly attacking US government and
commercial assets on a large scale for years. That the US is doing the same
thing, while not publicly stated, i would think is a pretty reasonable
assumption.

He is literally committing espionage, I am glad the privacy related items came
out, and frankly I hope the bulk of what he stockpiled eventually becomes
public knowledge.

But he is without doubt releasing US government secrets to a 'friendemy'
foreign nation with the express intent of personal benefit. thats spying, text
book, thats not whistle blowing.

~~~
daywalker
Nonsense.

~~~
mjolk
At first, I was dismissive of your point of view, but your cogent reasoning
convinced me otherwise.

------
seanalltogether
So is this his strategy for why he chose hong kong over iceland for the
initial leaks, he believes he can get china on his side to offer him
protection?

------
ph0rque
Not to go all conspiracy, but maybe it's US Government providing the info in
order to discredit Snowden and lay the groundwork for getting rid of him?

~~~
apalmer
My Pet conspiracy theory is Snowden's is a US operative, and the whole goal of
this operation is to get the US populous to accept this whole surveillance
state, and to get congress to fully legitimize these surveillance
operations...

~~~
pradocchia
> get the US populous to accept this whole surveillance state, and to get
> congress to fully legitimize these surveillance operations...

that does, frankly, seem the most likely outcome of all this, specific
orchestrations aside.

no one really has the stomach to roll back the security state, so after a good
catharsis, these programs will get legitimized, we'll accept pervasive
surveillance as the new normal, and adjust our lives accordingly.

~~~
gwgarry
Well you better be very careful about what you say because you don't want to
denied entry to the US now do you?

~~~
pradocchia
Keep your head down and stay out of trouble, yes.

------
kevinbluer
Just speculation, but any thoughts on the possibility of this being
coordinated FUD put out there to discredit Snowden (although this would
require some degree of USG collaboration with South China Morning Post)?

If this were the case it's already worked reasonably well in muddying the
opinion / perception here on HN, and would obviously give significant
ammunition to the mainstream media.

------
gridmaths
I think its a good thing to bring light on this. I hope this will get both
sides to draw up some boundaries for cyber war - at least we might get a
relatively peaceful standoff so we can trade with each other.

A standoff is better than all out escalation with increasingly dramatic
incursions and dialog where each side loses face, raising political tensions.

We should realize the beneficiaries of cyberwar escalation are the contractor
companies coupled tightly to the NSA. I don't think that many hackers are
getting rich, comfortable maybe, but not the big bucks.

------
zhemao
So basically he's trying to get people in HK to like him so they'll fight his
extradition.

"Hey HK, the US gov is spying on you too! We're in this together! Please don't
send me back."

------
kbenson
I have to say, it would renew my faith in the competency of government if this
was all some elaborate scheme to get an agent close to other countries to
plant targeted, specific misinformation, and Snowden is actually some super-
spy.

Alas, there are easier ways to accomplish that, an operation this big would
never remain secret, and acting in the open like this has to have a hundred
other downsides.

------
apalmer
Dude is going away for a long long time... He honestly better get himself at
least 1000 miles deep into the center of mainland china

~~~
mikecane
If China grabs him, they will put him in North Korea.

~~~
jlgreco
Pretty sure that China is not keen on owing North Korea any more favours.

~~~
mikecane
Interesting that now North Korea wants to open talks with the U.S., according
to a news tweet tonight (June 15th):

[https://twitter.com/NewsBreaker/status/346074606270038017](https://twitter.com/NewsBreaker/status/346074606270038017)

Strictly coincidence?

------
danielharan
Sounds like Snowden is warning the NSA that there are far more secrets that
could be revealed, potentially very damaging to the US. I wouldn't be the
least bit surprised to learn of a dead man's switch.

It's one way to make sure the US doesn't insist too much for the right to
extradite.

~~~
e3pi
> I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn of a dead man's switch.

...and secondary time released emails and other publishing events not trusting
the Washington Post or Guardian.

------
daywalker
This is to garner local support.

A HK legislator is backing Snowden because civilian infrastructure in HK has
been hacked. This is a criminal offence and must be investigated.

[http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/06/13/...](http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/06/13/china-
support-for-snowden.cnn.html)

There will also be a rally in HK to support Snowden on Saturday.

[http://supportsnowden.org/](http://supportsnowden.org/)

