
Don't Glorify Dropping Out - J3L2404
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2010/12/dont-glorify-dropping-out/68156/
======
dasil003
> _But there's something to be said for a degree as employability insurance._

There's something to be said for going out and learning how to get things done
and build a business as well. A college degree is hardly insurance for
anything.

It's clear this guy doesn't have any actual experience with startups. He
rattles off the usual talking points:

> _startups can be as profitable as a few are, only because the great majority
> of other entrepreneurs with similar ideas fail._

Uh, no, they didn't succeed because others failed; they succeed because they
were able to sell a product. Also, the ones that failed did not all go hungry
in the streets, many if not most of them gained priceless experience of far
more financial value than what academia is offering.

I don't necessarily advocate dropping out _or_ going to college. You can learn
a lot in college, and I certainly value my degree, however it is not the
source of my financial security. As the cost of college goes up, grades
inflate, and the percentage of people with college degrees increase, the cost-
benefit of college is rapidly shifting. Going to college simply isn't much of
a differentiator any more, and because it's gotten so easy, it's not as good
an indicator of competence the way it used to be.

Especially these days when companies are no longer loyal, the type of job that
a degree is required for is not some bastion of stability. 30 years from now
when those college graduates get layed off to cut costs, what is the value of
their college degree then? At that point they will be much better off if
they've learned some business hustle.

~~~
enjo
Counterpoint:

First off, I don't have a college degree. I have something like 102 hours, so
I'm a year'ish short.

That said, I'm always a bit wary of hiring folks who don't have (at least) a
liberal arts education of some kind. I don't really care about the computer
science, engineering, physics part of the degree.

I care about the part of college that prepares you to learn. I care about the
breadth of experience that literature, writing, philosophy, and the like give
you. I've now interviewed far too many folks who have deep computer science
knowledge without a degree, but lack the ability to internalize and _learn_ at
a deep level. I think that's what college does a tremendous job of preparing
people for.

I jump at the chance to hire people who took strong programming skills to
college and got a degree in something perpendicular to their programming skill
set. One of the best hires I ever made had a degree in hospitality management.
Short of that, at least stay in college long enough to complete those required
core classes. You'll be a much stronger developer, business person, whatever
for it.

~~~
araneae
I'd be wary of hiring a college drop-out simply because college can be a
filter for stick-to-it-ness. Only a very few college drop-outs do so because
they can do better elsewhere; the majority do it because they've failed. And
they don't believe that can get back on their feet.

I came close to dropping out, but I'm really glad I didn't- because managing
to come back showed me that effort really matters and that I have the ability
to succeed at things I thought were hard as long as I work at it.

~~~
krschultz
I think the questino of why you dropped out is a huge one.

If you dropped out becuase you wanted to start the next big thing and fail,
why didn't you go back? You can go back for the next 7 years and pick up where
you left off.

So if you are a college drop out, I am far more inclined to think it was
because you couldn't hack it than becuase you tried to go big.

~~~
mmt
I dropped out after a year, but it wasn't to go "big," merely to go (work) at
all.

The reason I never went back is simply that the cost grossly outweighed the
benefit.

Strictly from a quantifiable/money perspective, the loss would have been huge.
After 7 years, for example, I'd have been giving up around $85k annually in
salary and spending $15k or so on tuition and books. I'm ignoring living
expenses, since I expect those would have been close enough to comparable. I'd
also be trading 3 additional years of industry experience in addition to the
$300k for a diploma. Each of those years turned out to be worth $5k-$10k of
additional salary in the short term, though it's tough to say what they've
been worth in the long term.

As for the intangible benefits, that was an even easier decision, since
neither the process nor the "rounding" subjects outside computer science
appealed to me. These were all more difficult than high school, but in the
wrong ways. That is, the was just as tedious[2], more voluminous, and no more
intrinsically rewarding. Writing an essay about literature that parrots the
instructor's opinion is something I already knew how to do, but making it
appear as if I'm not was a college-level skill I couldn't be bothered to
practice, let alone master.

Had I dropped out to do a startup, even having failed, I can't imagine
undergraduate academia as being anything but stifling and insulting.

------
Eliezer
Reminder: People who think of themselves as getting prestige from their
college education may view something that challenges the prestige of college
as an attack on their hard-won status.

Reminder 2: College is broken. It needs challenging.

~~~
TomOfTTB
Your point is well taken but I'd offer one caveat which is the people in
Reminder #1 are a big part of the problem that creates Reminder #2. I recently
attended a meeting between educators and future California Governor Jerry
Brown.

At that meeting I watched a woman with a doctorate in English scream at the
future (and former) Mayor of California because he was telling her they'd have
to cut her six figure salary. Even though she admitted her students test
scores were abysmal and everyone in the room knows she couldn't go anywhere
else and get paid the same rate she still felt she was entitled to the money
on her degree alone.

Bottom line (IMHO): If society is to move forward people who deify the degree
need to be relieved of that delusion even if it's painful to them.

~~~
enjo
My bet is that her expertise in English <whatever> is vast and noteworthy. I
don't deify the degree, but I certainly deify the accomplishment of earning a
PhD. The fact that as an English PhD she was able to even get a job, much less
a high paying one certainly implies that she's an expert in her field.

I'm not arguing about her pay, that's up to the market. However, the
condescending tone of your post shows that you have zero inkling of what's
involved in the PhD process (no worries, most people don't even when they
think they do). I've lived through my wifes years in PhD school (accounting).
It was as intense a 5 years as I could imagine anyone enduring.

~~~
nostrademons
Should all difficult accomplishments be rewarded? Or should only useful
accomplishments be rewarded?

~~~
apsurd
A very good question!

My answer:

A difficult accomplishment should be its own reward irrespective of the
outside world.

A _useful_ difficult accomplishment _will_ be rewarded by the outside world.

------
DanielBMarkham
_But there's something to be said for a degree as employability insurance._

There is something to be said, and it's been said.

The question is whether not it's just _said_ or it's _real_. Growing evidence
suggests that college degrees are falling out of line with needs of society.
(I'm not saying degrees are bad things. I love education and keep learning
every day. If anything, I have a problem with certification madness)

If you'd like some arm-wavey slandering of the tech community, I'll give it a
shot: younger and younger people are making millions of dollars at startups.
This has, in effect, created something of a lottery system where there is huge
payback but most folks don't win. VCs and Angel groups are jumping on the
bandwagon, using age as a indicator of startup potential. All of this creates
a perverse set of counter-incentives against a traditional classic liberal
education. That's a bad thing.

But it's not bad enough to get all upset about. Not yet. It's simply something
to observe and see how it progresses.

------
jdminhbg
I'm not sure why we are meant to judge the glorification of dropping out by a
drop out more suspiciously than the glorification of academia by a European
History PhD.

~~~
astrofinch
But to be fair his arguments against dropping out mostly didn't have to do
with Thiel.

------
AndrewWarner
College is broken.

Anyone who paid and went for 4 years, knows its an inefficient use of time and
money.

What we need to do is stop glorifying college.

~~~
watty
College isn't broken, it's just not for everyone. I don't regret my 4 years
one bit, it was the best period of my life. I had some amazing social and
educational experiences that I wouldn't have received had I not attended - who
knew religion and geology could be so interesting? Most importantly I received
a CS degree which helped me transition into the real world and be successful
today.

You may feel it was a waste of time and money but for me, it was a bargain.

~~~
TomOfTTB
The point is there's nothing you get from college that you couldn't get for
free somewhere else (Internet for info and Industry gatherings for social
aspects). College puts it together in a nice, easy to digest package but they
vastly over charge for it.

The college model is still based around a philosophy from the 1800s when they
were the sole providers of information.

~~~
krschultz
The perception that "IT'S ALL AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNET" is a strictly CS
thing. Outside of programming, you will find drastically less information
online for free.

Sure you can buy the same textbooks and push yourself through them, but I'm
100% sure it would have taken me longer than 4 years to learn as much on my
own as I did in college that was directly relevant to my day to day job. I'm
not even sure if I could have gotten through the high end math without a lot
of help.

Would you like a self taught doctor over one with a degree?

~~~
jey
> Would you like a self taught doctor over one with a degree?

The degree is for his/her own benefit. What I care about is whether the doctor
is smart and well-informed.

No, I don't think that earning the right to use the suffix "M.D." means that
the doctor is well-informed and knowledgeable.

~~~
gawker
Nope but it is some form of metric that you can use to judge the doctor's
capability.

With a self-taught doctor, you just have the questions that you ask to help
you judge. With a doctor who's been through school, you have both your
questions and the fact that he/she has been through what has been set out by
the school issuing the degree.

------
Aloisius
Speaking as a high school drop out, I wouldn't recommend it for the vast
majority of people. College is useful for the people you meet as much as the
education you receive.

That said, in Silicon Valley, a few companies on your résumé, a single high
profile company and/or a major achievement is more than enough to compensate
for a lack of education.

Outside of Silicon Valley? Well that's another story.

~~~
metageek
> _Outside of Silicon Valley? Well that's another story._

It's the same here in the Boston area. I suspect it'll be the same at most
companies with heavy software work.

~~~
rpbertp13
He probably meant 'Silicon Valley' metonymically.

------
joeguilmette
I dropped out of college and now run a skydiving business pushing $1.5 million
in revenue per year. Year over year we're growing about 50% for two years
running.

We started with zero online presence and are now able to run Groupon-like
social marketing campaigns and gross around $20k in a week. These are good
numbers for a B&M business. Especially useful skillset for a business with
narrow margins and notoriously low profits.

I did this instead of try to transfer from a city college to a UC.

Seems like two years running such a business is a bit more educational and
resume boosting than getting a degree. I am technical but do not have the
discipline to study technical majors or really teach myself enough of a
language to build something. I can make minor tweaks and know enough to work
with devs.

I don't feel like I'd be half as far along with my 'career' if I'd chosen
school over life.

------
kiba
With all due respect, Peter Thiel doesn't encourage everyone to drop out. He
thought that college is indeed _suitable_ for probably a great majority of
young people.

------
ams6110
If you drop out, you can always "drop in" again. People drop out all the time
for all kinds of reasons, then go back a year or two later and finish.

~~~
kmfrk
This doesn't apply to all countries, unfortunately.

------
geebee
The glorification of dropping out may be a result of sample bias - journalists
don't spill as much ink about the people who dropped out of college and ended
up failing. That said, some dropouts scare me more than others. For instance,
dropping out of _high school_ to be an athlete, rock star, or actor seems very
risky. It all worked out for Andre Agassi, but what would he have done if he'd
only been a top 2,000 tennis player? Dropping out of _college_ or (especially)
_grad school_ to become a startup founder seems much less so. If someone has
succeeded through the first two years of computer science, they'll be able to
go back and finish that degree if they are so inclined.

One major weakness of the article is that it points to the contributions of
professors and researchers who made it all possible for gates, ellison, the
google guys, and so forth by publishing unpatented research that served as the
foundation for blockbuster companies. Great that they did this, of course, I
love these guys, but he seems to be saying that everone else is depending on
some other underpaid schlub to stick it through. Next career day, I'm going to
go to my local college and say "some of you need to finish grad school and do
PhD's - otherwise, how will other people get rich off your ideas?" Jeez, what
a pitch.

~~~
kirinkalia
So true about journalists and agreed that not all droputs are the same. Andre
Agassi was successful, yes, but he regrets never finishing his education --and
he's all about kids from his charter school going to college.

Frankly, the world needs all kinds of people, and the work many people do (not
just entrepreneurs) depends on the work of others. Many two-income families
would be SOL if there weren't people willing to clean homes and take of
children, for example.

------
nkurz
I'm a late thirty-something college dropout, and have yet to regret leaving. I
attended a fine small liberal arts school (one of those that rotates through
the top three spots of the rankings) and attended for three non-consecutive
years. I'd start each year with a love of learning and a sense of potential,
and finish each one hating the world and most everyone in it.

I learned an awful lot there, but a lot more from the environment than the
actual courses. I learned about money (I'd never really seen it before), I
learned about class in America (we didn't have much of that growing up in
Wisconsin), and I learned about a lot about cultural relativism (theory and
practice). Given a chance, I would highly encourage anyone to attend the best
institution they can possibly gain entrance to. It will be eye opening.

But actually getting a degree? Optional. It always felt to me that the
certification was at odds with the education. Instead of learning anything in
particular, I was being taught to juggle, and to not care too deeply about
what I was keeping in the air. This is likely of great value to an employer,
but as an individual I want the freedom to care deeply about the content, and
never found this to be possible in even an excellent liberal arts college
environment.

Financially, I'm probably doing worse than most of my peers who stuck with it.
But I think this is more a factor of my personality than the lack of a degree.
I left the final time to work at a computer company founded by some friends of
mine (social networking advantage) and we managed to sell that successfully.
The current startup is much shakier, and at this point all the savings are
gone, but I'm pretty sure the lack of a degree has not been holding me back.

Anyway, I'm all for Peter Thiel. I wish something like this had been around
for me. It would have been great to have the feeling there was some approved
alternative to college rather than just slogging through.

------
alexwestholm
The article is written by a Ph.d. That probably means he's got a vested
interest in people staying in school...

~~~
pjscott
I doubt he's motivated by a financial interest, if that's what you're
suggesting. What he certainly has a stake in is maintaining the social status
that college degrees give you. He put years into getting a PhD, and if he's
teaching undergrads, that means he devotes a lot of time to helping other
people get college degrees. To someone in his position, "glorifying dropouts"
devalues his accomplishments and his work, at least in the eyes of others.

------
mbyrne
College is like bundled software. You're buying a basket of goods, some of the
items, probably all, are not the best-of-class, but you get an overall value
that some people think is worth the cost and time, particularly if they don't
think about the time or cost, since there is social validation from everyone
else doing it, and it lets them avoid the thought and effort involved with
evaluating the alternatives for their lives.

Best way to learn? No, but you'll learn something. College is about being
socialized into society. You'll meet people and join networks. You'll have
fun, go to parties, and date. You'll be away from home and learn to live on
your own. You'll get a certification that will allow you to apply for certain
jobs you would otherwise be excluded from. In short, to fit into the role
society wants for you.

The people who are supposedly being glorified for dropping out are actually
being glorified for dropping out to do _something better_ than the usual
thing. And to those comfortable with and benefiting from the status quo, this
act of rejection is perceived as a threat to their plans for you.

------
YooLi
People (here at HN) seem to be relating not needing a college degree to not
needing a computer science degree. There is a huge difference though with
degrees for pre-med (biology, bio-chem, etc.), electrical engineering, civil
engineering, nuclear engineering, etc. You definitely need those degrees if
that's the field you are pursuing.

~~~
pjscott
I have an electrical engineering degree, and looking back on it, there's
really not much there that you couldn't learn just fine from the Internet --
_if_ the material were readily available, and there were a community of people
learning EE online. In order for that to happen, though, EE education would
need to get its act together, and change quite a bit.

It's frustrating to see how much better education _could_ be, if only more
fields would start using the internet properly.

(Fun fact: I don't have a CS degree, but I'm taking graduate-level CS classes
and doing fine. I _know_ that CS it something you can learn well from the
internet. I know what it feels like to learn the equivalent of an
undergraduate degree online. And EE could be that way, too.)

------
T-R
I doubt that many HN users are really offended by the idea that their degree
could be worthless - if it really is, they probably came by that conclusion on
their own.

The resume/interview process is broken, too, but I think most people would
consider it poor judgement to explicitly invest in those who didn't get
through it.

If he really felt like the degree is just a poor indicator of performance,
there would be more discussion about what metric serves as a good alternative,
or focus on improving the current metric. Instead, with the age limit, he
asserts that degrees are a negative indicator, which makes it sound more like
he's purposefully making a poor investment to give a voice to those who have
contempt for those who finished college.

------
bhudman
As some one pointed out in the comments, everyone is different. Sure, college
may be broken, but I certainly don't regret going to college. I then went to
grad school (for ECE) and now I am in school for an MPA (nonprofit studies).

I do not think Peter Thiel is encouraging people to crap on colleges. It all
boils down to an individual - people going to college and those that don't -
both can make a difference.

As much as I admire entrepreneurs, facebook and myspace do not solve pressing
problems (disease, hunger etc). Sure, we admire the founders because they made
it, but money is not the end all. I'd be scared to live in a world full of
entrepreneurs :).

------
markbao
Funny this comes up, since I'm applying to this program (see profile). I think
it's what I need in place of a college education. In other words, it's the
right track for my post-secondary 'education' as opposed to college.

------
joshklein
It may not be an accredited institution, but Thiel is basically starting his
own school and offering transfers, not telling people to drop out. I find it
similar to Seth Godin's "MBA" program.

An education has 3 valuable components: the people it lets you meet, the
experiences you get to have, and the story it lets you tell about yourself to
future listeners. If you're not going down the path of a formal education, you
still have to make sure you cover these bases.

------
kirinkalia
I'm wondering how many of those who drop out of college to start companies
succeed -- and by success I don't mean Zuckerberg or Gates type of success but
have a profitable company and make enough money to live a comfortable (not
extravagant) life?

I believe college is not for everybody or at the same stage of life (i.e., you
could go back if the company you started doesn't work out). But I do agree
with Thiel's point that a degree provides some level of insurance.

------
proexploit
I dropped out of college and it was a great decision for me. Every person is
different. For some, college is great. For some, dropping out is great. I'd
guess the choice that is better for you is related to your learning style.

I'd never attempt to convince someone to drop out of college, but if they do
and it works out well for them, I'll be happy to congratulate them.

------
garrettgillas
Yeah, anyone who posts their degree in their byline is going to be less than
objective when writing a piece like this. Nobody likes to feel like they've
been ripped off. Maybe in the future the college degree will be thought of as
the Thigh Master of our generation.

------
stretchwithme
Many people finish school having lost the natural drive to succeed. But they
know how to regurgitate.

I'm not saying school doesn't help you think. But for many it seems to inhibit
their ability to act independently.

And for many today, there's too much analysis and not enough experimentation.

------
omouse
What? Why not? The way things are going, your degree isn't worth as much as
you'd like it to be and you'll probably be in debt for a while just to pay it
off.

------
elai
A degree is also useful for visas. If your canadian and you don't have a
degree good luck getting a TN or any other kind of work permit visa down in
the US.

------
notallama
dropping out to work on something can be a good idea. start while you're in
school, and only drop out once you can't handle both, though. maybe take a
light course load at first, and if your project really picks up steam, drop
the courses.

dropping out to work for someone is just stupid.

------
babeKnuth
Don't glorify staying in school.

------
lhnn
This man offering the scholarship to 'stop-outs' won't instantly make the
university system collapse.

If I had a great idea and an investor was $100k confident in the monetization
of it, I would probably drop out, too. The author's whole premise is that
dropping out is universally bad and should be discouraged, and that staying in
school is universally good. Neither are true.

The article also misses the point: Where might we be if some of the 'usual
celebrity dropouts' hadn't dropped out? What if they had said, "I'll get a
real job first, then work on my idea." The world might look very different.

Non-Ph.D. entrepreneurs and academics can peacefully coexist.

EDIT: I concede to gxti that my statement about the author's premise is false.
I stand by my other opinions: The scholarship is a neat idea and will not
convince most people to drop out.

~~~
aneesh
_The article also misses the point: Where might we be if some of the 'usual
celebrity dropouts' hadn't dropped out?_

I don't think the article misses the point. He never says Bill Gates and Mark
Zuckerberg should never have dropped out. He's just saying that dropping out
should be _rare_. For the vast majority of people, it's not the right thing to
do, financially. The "right people" will ignore all the discouragement and
drop out anyway. People like Sergey Brin & Larry Page will drop out, with or
without Thiel's investment.

"It's better to discourage than to encourage dropping out, so that it's done
only for compelling reasons."

~~~
Eliezer
> People like Sergey Brin & Larry Page will drop out, with or without Thiel's
> investment.

That is probably precisely the part that Thiel disagrees with you about. Who
knows how many would-be Brins and Pages couldn't afford the risk?

~~~
Aloisius
Risk adverse people aren't generally successful at founding startups.

~~~
stanleydrew
Exactly. By reversing the equation and actually paying people to leave school
and found startups Peter Thiel is likely going to get some people who are too
risk averse to do it without a guaranteed reward. I'm not sure this is a
preferable outcome, but surely he's thought of it and decided it was worth a
try.

------
jaxtapose
I think the guy is on the right path, don't glorify dropping out. Glorify
removing unessential distractions.

