

Ask YC: How do you find manufacturers to outsource to? - noel_gomez

I have an idea for a toy.  How does one go about finding a toy manufacturer in China for example that can built it?  Do they typically have in house resources to help with design and material selection?
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waldrews
You're probably going to want a design firm, rather than a manufacturing firm,
to get you to the point where you have a physical prototype, CAD files of
manufacturable parts, and choices of materials and processes. Then they can
guide you to a contract manufacturer.

Some resources:

Design firms that work on toys:

[http://www.dexigner.com/directory/cat/Toy_Design/Companies.h...](http://www.dexigner.com/directory/cat/Toy_Design/Companies.html)

MIT product design course:

[http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Sloan-School-of-
Management/15-783J...](http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Sloan-School-of-
Management/15-783JSpring-2006/CourseHome/index.htm)

Berkeley's course covering rapid prototyping and manufacturing, including
lecture videos:

<http://bmi.berkeley.edu/Me221/me221_resources.htm>
[http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_details.php?seriesid=1906...](http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_details.php?seriesid=1906978169)

The Berkeley videos totally opened my eyes - I was a computer science guy with
no clue about making physical products.

~~~
noel_gomez
I'm a lone entrepreneur with an idea, don't think I can afford professional
design firm. I will check out the MIT and Berkeley courses though.

~~~
waldrews
You still might want to get the bids and see what you can afford - even $10k
might get you pretty far if you're willing to do a lot of the work yourself,
using the design firm as consultants to guide you through the process.

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dpapathanasiou
The guys behind MouseDriver ([http://www.amazon.com/MouseDriver-Chronicles-
John-Lusk/dp/07...](http://www.amazon.com/MouseDriver-Chronicles-John-
Lusk/dp/0738205737)) did this.

I don't remember the details (and unfortunately I freecycled the book so I
can't look it up now) but you might want to read that for yourself.

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wave
I am not sure if <http://alibaba.com> can help.

~~~
kynikos
Be careful when dealing with vendors through the site. Beyond having to deal
with Engrish, given turnaround times are often inaccurate.

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maxklein
Hi Noel, there are many companies who work as intermediates between you and
chinese manufacturers. These companies are based in china, but run by
foreigners. They find the company, produce the product, arrange the shipping.
So it's basically the same deal you would get, but perhaps 5% more expensive.
For that, you avoid the cross cultural difference, you have reputable sources
etc.

I can introduce you to a company I know personally based in Shanghai. They'll
source any product you want. Send me a message if you're interested, I don't
want to be seen as a shill.

~~~
noel_gomez
Thanks Maximus, I sent you an email, but it bounced I used the maximus gmail
address on your profile.

How would you respond to mixmax's post above? (on the cultural differences)

~~~
maxklein
Sorry, my email in the profile was wrong. It's maximusklein@gmail.com, and not
maximus@gmail.com

Regarding the cultural differences - I'll say this: It's very difficult to do
effective work with chinese companies without micro management. The chinese
work very hard, but sometimes they work very hard on the wrong things. An
obviously flawed product will get created and nobody will bother to inform you
till its too late. And the english is terrible. Products are mislabelled,
punctuation is usually in the wrong spot.

Outsourcing to china is a very hands on affair. Quality control is not an
option, it's a neccessity.

I've been to china often over the past few months, and it's a very different
working philosophy from what I'm used to. So yes, be careful. Very careful.

~~~
noel_gomez
I have Chinese friends, maybe need to recruit them for effective
communication.

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mixmax
A friend of mine had a company that outsourced production of T-shirts to
China. The problems he faced was not so much finding suppliers but dealing
with the cultural differences of how to do business.

~~~
noel_gomez
Can you be more specific on the "cultural differences of how to do business."
Do you just mean language?

~~~
mixmax
I didn't elaborate in the parent post since it might have sounded racist.
Which it isn't meant to be.

It seems that asians have a different perspective of doing a deal than
Europeans and Americans. Americans and Europeans think the negotiations are
over when the contract is signed. Asians seem to think that the negotiations
have only just started when the contract is signed, and they will try anything
to cut corners if they can. So you basically have to watch every step
extremely closely, making sure you don't release payments before the priduct
is secured, etc.

This, of course, is just my impression - feel free to correct me if it isn't
accurate.

~~~
bkow20
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I designed a retail product and
had it manufactured in China. While there are cultural differences, I didn't
have any problems in terms of altering a contract after its signed, or cutting
corners. The company and specific representative I dealt with was courteous,
fair, and delivered on the promise completely to my expectations. Language is
no doubt a barrier (the employees' english is often a few notches down from a
native speaker, as expected), but it just required less requests per email,
and working in a style that was compatible. Finally, there are some great
benefits to working with a Chinese company: low costs, and the time
difference. It's really great to be able to start up a late night email
correspondence that's right in the middle of their workday.

~~~
noel_gomez
bkow, do you mind sharing more information about your experience? What you
desinged, how you contracted with, etc.? You can email me directly if you with
noel AY noelgomez D O T com

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menloparkbum
Doesn't directly help you, but Bunnie, the guy who made the Chumby, has very
interesting blog posts about getting a product made in China. Check out his
blog starting around January 2007.

<http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?m=200701>

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ig1
You seem to be missing an important step, before you find a manufacturer you
probably want to create a prototype. While the idea might be great in your
head, you won't know if it's any good until you've built a few prototypes and
tested them on your target audience.

There's a TV series in the UK called Dragon's Den where inventors pitch their
ideas to angels to get funding. You can actually learn a lot from watching it
(in terms of understanding if your product will actually suceed or not and
various problems you might encounter). It might be worth your time watch a
couple of seasons of it.

~~~
noel_gomez
I am planning on prototyping first even though that may not have been clear.

There is a show in the US called American inventor which sounds similar to
Dragon's Den (it probably is the same thing adapted for the US, like American
Idol).

I have seen American inventor and you do learn a lot. The biggest lesson is
not to spend too much on something which may not sell. I have seen people go
on there and state that they have put their life savings or $50,000 to
$100,000 on ideas which were not so great.

I have no illusions and tend to be pretty realistic. I think there is
potential for my idea, but I would first prototype it and see if there is a
market before building 10k units.

~~~
ig1
I've seen American inventor before, it's not quite like DD. DD is pretty much
like a real VC pitch type of scenario, where you have startups that have got
off the ground and are looking for funding to expand. So you get a lot more
variety of companies and a lot more concentration on business planning. AI
seems to be a lot more focus on "best invention" and is a lot more "reality
showish" then DD.

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nurall
Thomasnet is a free resource to find prototypers and design shops -
<http://snurl.com/28w08> [www_thomasnet_com]

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briansmith
Please read this:
[http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2008/0804.frank.ht...](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2008/0804.frank.html)

It is not so easy to outsource to Asia if you care about ethics, quality, or
safety. You will need some broker with experience to help you sort out the
good companies from the bad ones.

~~~
noel_gomez
Yeah, I know this is an issue I need to consider. I have also thought of the
whole led based paint debacle which surfaced last year since my idea is for a
toy.

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semigeek
My fiancee is in the retail business (seasonal gifts, in 600+ stores). The key
is finding a good sourcing company - there are some that will work on
commission once you prove yourself to be a good product developer. They'll
even haggle with the plants to get you multiple samples before forcing you
into a production line.

~~~
noel_gomez
semigeek, do you mind sharing some of your/your fiancee's experience. You can
email me directly at noel AY noelgomez D OT com

I'm interested in how she got things prototyped and even how she sold things
into the retail channel.

