
The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter - barredo
http://a.wholelottanothing.org/2012/01/lessons-for-kickstarter-creators-from-the-worst-project-i-ever-funded-on-kickstarter.html
======
citricsquid
The one thing that Kickstarter has taught me is something I don't really want
to accept, but it's the sad truth: most project creators don't see Kickstarter
as a real commitment to business, it's a way to get money for their "neat
project" that they want to complete but without the hassle of raising money
properly or selling pre-orders. It's a complete non-commitment and it seems a
substantial number (enough for me to notice) take it this way.

Kickstarter really need to fix this side of the site, I won't be backing any
projects from this point on unless they absolutely have a pre-created product
and I'm happy with what I can see at the time of backing, putting money into
"creative" projects or "prototypes" seems to be a guaranteed way to come away
with something you didn't expect (if you get anything at all). I would love to
see either some retribution for people that never deliver or project curation
from Kickstarter.

On a positive note I backed "Romo"
([http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/peterseid/romo-the-
smart...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/peterseid/romo-the-smartphone-
robot)) a couple of months back and had an absolutely wonderful experience,
they delivered on all their promises (so far) and the project is everything
they promised.

~~~
sp332
_most project creators don't see Kickstarter as a real commitment to business,
it's a way to get money for their "neat project" that they want to complete
but without the hassle of raising money properly or selling pre-orders._

But that's true, of course. Kickstarter isn't a marketplace like e.g. Etsy
where customers buy items. Kickstarter lets people fund cool projects they
like. Often (but not always) the item istelf is offered as a "perk" for
backers. But that's not really the point of Kickstarer, it's just about
funding a project.

~~~
citricsquid
This is what I'm talking about, if I choose to fund a project and the reward I
choose is that project, isn't that the point of funding? For example,
[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/petertreadway/spnkix-
wea...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/petertreadway/spnkix-wearable-
mobility) is a project being funded at the moment and will reach it's goal,
I've backed with $500 so I can get a pair, if they don't deliver on that isn't
that an issue? Kickstarter does not present it as a chance to _maybe_ see a
project and if not, well great free money for the project creator, it's
presented as a way to fund a project to creation, to delivery.

~~~
sp332
Here's one I funded. It's a documentary:
[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/textfiles/the-jason-
scot...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/textfiles/the-jason-scott-
documentary-three-pack)

They haven't even been shot yet. Heck when I pledged, the guy hadn't even
bought the cameras to do the shooting yet. There's no gurantee about the
content of the films. Sure, I'll get a copy, eventually, but that's not really
why I pledged. I pledged to fund the _making of_ these films.

------
tylermenezes
I'm helping out with a Kickstarter project
([http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/studentrnd/plasma-
speake...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/studentrnd/plasma-speaker))
which is already 2 months behind the delivery date, and I just wanted to offer
a view from the other side.

Shipping a product is hard. Our initial prototype used some components we had
in our parts organizer, and a $100k variable DC power supply Boeing donated.
It was pretty cool, so we put it online, and it picked up $20k in donations.

As soon as we put it online, we started working on improvements to the design,
and when it was to a point we considered done, we made a board design and
ordered parts.

And of course, nothing worked.

We've been working on it for as much time as possible since then (as mentioned
in our Kickstarter, the lead designer is a high school student), and even with
the help of some local EEs, it's taken forever to get it to even start. The
flybacks and PSUs took forever to get to the US, customs held up the package,
and FedEx refused to deliver them. Our laser cutter, which we ordered to make
the enclosures, was a week late, and took a few days to set up.

Now we're at the point where we're balancing sound quality and time. We can
redesign the entire project so it sounds better, but that means another few
weeks to get the new boards and parts, or we can just ship what we have.

If we do any Kickstarters in the future, we're obviously going to have a
totally more realistic timeframe. But it's apparent that anyone who hasn't
shipped a product is going to have no idea of how involved trying to reproduce
something in a mass scale is.

That said, it looks like these people took an AWFUL approach to customer
support. We've tried to keep people as up-to-date as we were, we've refunded
anyone who asked for it and offered to ship laser cut cards to anyone who was
planning on giving the plasma speakers as a Christmas gift.

tl;dr: Kickstarter is hard. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

~~~
Lewton
>we've refunded anyone who asked for it

If you don't mind me asking, how many refunds have been requested? It might
give an insight into what people expect from Kickstarter

~~~
tylermenezes
I only see two in the notes section on Kickstarter. Amazon Payments would be
the definitive place to check but I don't know the password for it, and I
probably won't be in our office until Thursday because of snow in Seattle.

------
rickyc091
I was backing this project until the day they decided to raise shipping costs.
It wasn't the raised shipping costs that made me withdraw my backing, but the
fact that they had no respect for the backers.

Just pulling a few quotes from the project starter... That is why I backed out
of it.

\---

@Jeffrey Sorry you feel that way. But I owe you nothing. No one does.

@PAIK Jackass, it's right here >> <http://screencast.com/t/aPOddZQtDJ> Stop
harassing me!! And as I said, it was in the comments.

@Noor from day one of the project we've always stated that there will be
international shipping charges. So nothing has changed. Secondly. I don't
believe that the customer is always right. And there's actually a strong
community of business people out there that feel the same way.

~~~
blakestein
Just more lessons on what not to do when raising funds. It's not even so much
what he said, but his "tone."

~~~
kmak
Seems like kickstarters are mostly okay with the risks.. it is inherent in the
site, after all, but man, it doesn't seem necessary to be mean about things..

------
shadowmint
I wish people would stop thinking of Kickstarter as a shop.

It's not.

The site is very clear in it's FAQ that once a project is funded, delivery of
the promised perks is up to the project creator, not up to Kickstarter:
[http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backing%20a%20project#Wh...](http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backing%20a%20project#WhoIsRespForMakiSureProjCreaDeliWhatTheyProm)

I've seen some great projects on the site, but you have to realize that you're
not buying something.

When you see a project that is developing a product, and the promised reward
is one of those items, you are _not buying one of them_.

You are pledging your money to the sponsor in good faith that they will
provide you with one. In effect, speculating your money on Kickstarter against
the risk of the project failing after it's fully funded.

If you want to buy something, use a shop.

I actually think that Kickstarter (despite it not being in their best
interests) should place an upper limit on the funding available on projects
that effectively try to use Kickstarter as a shop, and dupe the public into
thinking they are buying things.

There's really nothing to stop me creating a "cool laptop" shop on
Kickstarter, claiming to "rebrand" macbook airs and resell them with laser
etched designs for $500 each, take all the money and walk away.

------
541564654
I just cannot help but notice how much the perception of what Kickstarter is
has changed from its initial days. I learned about Kickstarter at the time the
Diaspora project was there collecting money. It was clear that people are not
"buying" but "investing". They were not "consumers", they were "investors".
Diaspora wasn't a "product" on "pre-order" but a "project" which was "under
development". How the intent and purpose of the site changed in the minds of
both "backers" and project makers is just amazing. Its like the identity of
what Kickstarter started out to be has been lost somewhere.

Kickstarter was supposed to replace angle investors and VC. They were supposed
to help the little guy start up without all the control of the big guy who had
money. The idea, as explained to me on this very forum, was that this was
crowd sourced investment. The users here went on to say how this will change
the startup culture and help people start more bootstrapped startups without
any strings attached. The "rewards" were never a guaranteed thing. They were
sort of a thank you and giving out rewards were supposed to be a way to show
off that they actually succeeded. Now it seems the whole thing has shifted to
a marketplace of sorts. It seems like people are using it as an alternative to
ebay or amazone, just that they can have higher flexibility and more contact
to their "consumers". The inherent risk of "investing" has been lost and given
way to the guarantee of "buying" a product.

~~~
prodigal_erik
Kickstarter's guidelines specifically say

> Offering financial incentives, such as ownership, financial returns (for
> example, a share of profits), or repayment (loans) is prohibited.

If they ever claimed pledges were "investments", that was dishonest and I
think the SEC could actually prosecute them for it.

~~~
541564654
I think I made the wrong choice of words there. I am really truly sorry. I
think donations is much more appropriate. I don't know, maybe someone will
understand. I just wanted to say that kickstarter didn't imply any ownership
in anyway. Ever.

------
matdwyer
Disclaimer: I've never used Kickstarter

This being said, I was under the impression that funding a project is still a
bit of a risk - I'd expect that some projects (like businesses) simply don't
work out how they planned - this seems like that type of problem. Of course
they should have mentioned the signal problems (and even reached out to see if
they could crowd source a solution) but buying in as an early "funder" would
imply that there is a risk that it doesn't work, in my opinion.

Seems like they simply couldn't deliver on the project, glad that it's only
happened to him once in 72 times.

~~~
marquis
I've funded a few projects of friends. One never materialized but it was worth
the shot and the others are in production. If you spread your investments out,
some are bound to take off no? I'm in line to receive some great products that
wouldn't see the light of day otherwise and I'm excited. You don't get this
excited over many things you can buy.

I must say though, reading the content of this Kickstarter they don't deal
very well with their failure. With the proper tone they could have gotten
another round and kept their investors happy.

~~~
underwater
I don't quite understand what the "investors" are getting out of KickStarter.
It doesn't seem like prouducts are _that_ unique or cheap. The risk of a
project failing or being delayed means I wouldn't buy anything I really needed
from there.

It seems like all the benefits are on the producers side. They can start a
project with little risk, ask for more money when they mess up their
budgetting and still finish up making a tidy profit.

~~~
InclinedPlane
As an investor you help create something that didn't exist before. Maybe
something cool or interesting or important that you think should exist. Maybe
something you desire to own as well.

Sometimes the rewards are worth more than the investment, sometimes the
personal value of contributing to something worthwhile is enough. People
volunteer their time and donate their money to things beyond helping sick
children and the poor.

------
davyjones
This is a fairly known issue in elec. design. What is happening here is that
the case is acting as a Faraday cage
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage>) that blocks out signals.

It is not just enough to wear the designer hat. An engineer hat is absolutely
essential as well.

~~~
mikeash
It pretty well blows my mind that they just wrapped the whole antenna in metal
and didn't think that it might cause problems. You shouldn't need to wear any
hats at all for that one, just apply some common sense.

When I saw the thing, I assumed they must have come up with some extremely
clever way to avoid signal attenuation. Turns out they were just ignoring the
blindingly obvious. Oops.

~~~
tesseract
> they must have come up with some extremely clever way to avoid signal
> attenuation

Which itself would be fairly incredible, considering that Steve Jobs and Jony
Ive wanted to make the iPhone out of metal, and for three years they couldn't
do so because of the antenna issue, and finally after spending what must have
been many millions of dollars and many engineering man-years they came up with
a sophisticated solution that was pretty good but even so _still had widely
publicized issues when it first came on the market_.

------
Terretta
After the iPhone "antenna gate" with a _rubber_ bumper as the resolution, how
did 1,053 backers conclude surrounding an iPhone 4 with a metal band would be
a good idea?

The author even owned Apple's bumper, but perhaps had not realized why it was
rubber. Then the author's other stated reason was frequently dropping the
phone. How shock absorbent does he imagine solid metal is, compared to that
rubber bumper?

As easily discerned from the photos, this antenna blocking, shock
transmitting, "case" doesn't even extend past the face glass, allowing it to
shatter if dropped on any front face corner.

Seems like this project's backers should consider it a $65 lesson in weighing
the plausibility of marketing claims for oneself.

------
newsio
_When you are designing a product for Kickstarter and you show prototypes,
backers will assume you have worked all the bugs out first._

Do backers on Kickstarter really assume that all the bugs will be worked out
before the prototype is shown? I'm not familiar with how the community works,
but would assume that the prototypes would be used to identify more bugs and
design flaws, as well as elicit feedback from early users.

~~~
nirvana
Yes. Backers on kickstarter are not sophisticated startup people. They're
regular consumers. Most kickstarter projects are ones that appeal to them, and
are also low tech. If a project expects a lengthy development process they can
say it in the project.

I've done some mechanical engineering, but I'm no mechanical engineer. I can't
know whether an iPhone dock is going to require 3 prototypes and 4 nearly
complete versions before being ready to ship, and all this will take 9 months,
or if what they're showing in the picture can be manufactured in 60 days in
volume, all they need is the money for the injection molding forms, which are
very expensive.

Hell, I bet most people who fund kickstarter projects don't even know
injection molding forms are expensive.

So, if the project has high risk, and this isn't disclosed by the leader of
the project when asking for funding, that's an error on their part.

The problem projects I've seen (that are products, rather than pieces of art)
tend to pitch themselves as completed products that just need manufacturing
help.

------
hop
I bought an aluminum Element Vapor Pro and it has no problems. I actually got
it to see how it fits in my current Kickstarter project, the Elevation Dock,
b/c a lot of people asked and they love them.

It has plastic around the top left corner and small foam pads so the aluminum
never touches the steel antenna. If I were these guys, I would machine out the
corner and make a polycarbonate piece to fit.

If anyone here has one, I'd machine the modifications for you just to show it.

~~~
X-Istence
You have no idea much I am looking forward to having the Elevation Dock in my
hands and using it!

------
tlrobinson
I've seen some neat things coming out of Kickstarter projects, but I get the
impression most backers don't understand they're not guaranteed to receive an
awesome perfectly functioning polished final product pitched by the creator.

Kickstarter needs to make that more clear.

Also, they need to do something about overfunding. Perhaps hold some of the
money back until the product is ready to go into production or something.

------
mquinlan
I'm not familiar with the outcome of any other "failed" projects, but has
Kickstarter ever forcibly refunded money or intervened in any way? If not...
they're obviously growing (nearly 4x as much pledged in 2011) and I don't know
if more strict guidelines would really help.

------
goatforce5
I've put done close to $300 to help fund a programmable espresso machine.
Funding closes this Friday. Get in quick if it might be your sort of thing:

[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-
controll...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-
espresso-machine)

Just yesterday they posted a very good update letting people know where they
stand. Notably that the shipping times are already longer than originally
stated, and that now is the time to ask them questions (before the money is
taken). They also specifically state that they're not a storefront, and that
setbacks in the schedule are possible:

[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-
controll...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-
espresso-machine/posts/163017)

Seems like a sensible way to set expectations upfront.

(I discovered this project as I was close to spending $700 on a machine that
is (on paper) lower spec'ed (but, to be fair, available now). I'm willing to
wait the few months and risk some cash to give some guys a chance at producing
something new/different.)

------
antimora
Could the founders take only a small portion of money and proceed till the
bugs were resolved?

~~~
DanBC
With hardware a lot of costs are up front. I have some knowledge of PCB
manufacture.

So, you need to design the PCB. You need to get artwork made. You need some
prototypes. Then you need to decide whether you'll re-design, or include a
mod. Re-design is expensive, that is balanced by having a bit of wire soldered
between two points and a track cut by a low paid operative in some random
factory.

You now have some PCBs. You need production aids. You may need stencils for
screen printing solder paste. The design can be generated from the PCB gerber
files. But again, there are artwork costs for this. You need a pick and place
machine program. If there are many conventional components you'll want a
cropping machine plate made. (A steel plate which the PCB sits on with small
holes for conventional components; you then put this on the cropping machine
which pins the components down while a blade slides and crops the component
leads).

Then you build your prototypes. You need someone to buy components; to put
these onto the pick and place machine (Which means stripping that machine down
from the last job); to load the programs and set the reflow oven and align the
screen print stencil.

You can new see that it's just as easy to produce ten as it is to produce one.
(I'd recommend people building prototypes to build a batch of, say, 3 rather
than just 1 or 2. That gives you an early alpha; a beta, and a neat and tidy
beta to create documents and production drawings from.)

Hopefully I've shown how many of the costs are up front. The costs of
components and actually building stuff is relatively cheap.

------
nirvana
I got burned by a kickstarter project. Like others, I naively believed that
they were at least an above board outfit. I also appreciated that Amazon was
the payments service because I believe they are above board as well.

I fell for the "Hexbright Flashlight" project:
[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/527051507/hexbright-
an-o...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/527051507/hexbright-an-open-
source-light?ref=live)

His pitch was that the product was designed and that he just needed the
funding to underwrite manufacturing startup costs with asian and local
suppliers. Having been well down the path of getting a consumer electronics
product manufactured, and knowing the costs and understanding that a lot of
those costs are upfront, I this seemed very reasonable to me. I thought his
asking amount was a bit low, but the project was overfunded to the tune of
$800,000 - more than enough to cover these startup costs.

Once funded, however, the October delivery date-- two months from the funding
date, was never mentioned again.

Instead the updates have increasingly focused on design choices. In fact, the
early updates made it very clear that many of the design choices hadn't even
been settled!

He's clearly taking his time, doing some updates once a month or so, but it
doesn't even look like this is full time. (excuses for having a new baby, etc.
Jeez guy, you took on an $800,000 project with a baby on the way, really?)

I have the very strong impression that it was a slight con job-- he got the
money to dick around with his ultimate flashlight and "really do it right",
but doesn't seem too concerned about his commitment to deliver the flashlights
in a timely manner.

I do believe has has every intention to deliver these flashlights...
eventually.

But I bought them for christmas presents, I've been out several hundred
dollars for 6 months and I don't even have a promise date for delivery. In
fact, the whole thing is so half assed that he doesn't even know which colors
I want because he didn't give us a way to tell him.

So, I contacted Kickstarter. I figured they had contingency plans for this
kind of situation. I figured they were a standup organization. Their response?
A form letter telling me that they advise their project leaders to deliver in
a timely manner to backers. That's it. No suggestions for alternatives,
nothing like that.

Of course the 30 day credit card dispute period has long passed. But I don't
think it will come to that.

The FTC has a rule, that if you take money for a product, you have to deliver
it in 6 weeks. This is why TV commercials and magazine ads often say "delivers
in 4-6 weeks". Because they're using drop shippers, or whatever. If you don't
deliver in 6 weeks, you have to get the customers permission to delay
shipment, or you have to refund their money. Thems the rules.

Its debatable whether the 6 weeks started at the funding date when our cards
were charged (and kickstarter got their $80,000), or at the "end of october"
when they were originally supposed to ship. Either way that time is up.

Because I think this guy intends to deliver them, and was only dishonest about
the level of completion of the project, and because I know that last %10 can
take a lot of time, I'm going to give him a bit longer. Maybe the end of
January. I'd go to the end of February if he promises to ship in that month.

After that point, I'm going to take up the dispute with Amazon. I expect that
amazon, having handled the payment will resolve the issue, but if they don't
then I'm going to escalate.

I actually blame kickstarter more than I do the guy behind the project. They
should not blow people off when projects fail to deliver. This isn't a
donation to some kid who wants to take pictures of trees in the Sierras. They
are selling products here, and they are promising tangible goods on a
specified date in exchange for the funds. That's the definition of being a
store.

I don't mind giving people some time. I only even got annoyed about this one
after christmas came and went and there wasn't even an apology for not
shipping in a reasonable amount of time. And I only got upset when kickstarter
blew me off when I wrote them. Because of that, if this isn't resolved in 4-8
weeks, I'm going to Amazon, and then the police.

Needless to say, I won't be backing any more Kickstarter projects, and until
they start taking some responsibility, I no longer consider them a trustworthy
outfit.

Here's the introduction of the project: "I am offering pre-orders for two
unique and powerful lights, the HexBright Prime for $35 and the HexBright Flex
for $60. Both models are virtually identical looking with an ergonomic, very
comfortable grip and use the best available LED light source. ... The major
difference between the Prime and Flex models is the HexBright Flex is USB
rechargeable and USB programmable. If you want, you can re-write the default
code and tweak the HexBright Flex however you desire."

He's offering pre-orders. That's what the project promised. (Elsewhere it gave
a "late september, early october" ship date, but that has since been removed.)

Kickstarter offers a FAQ. Here's the FAQ entry for this project: When will you
ship? "Short answer- as soon as we can. Long answer- HexBright is not a
product already on the shelf ready to be shipped. You are funding development
of a top quality product where almost all your money is going into the parts
and materials with almost no overhead, marketing or middlemen costs (we are
projecting future retail prices to be over $100). As the saying goes, "CHEAP,
FAST, GOOD, pick any two". Our price is fixed so we are choosing between
"fast" and "good". Good wins every time. "

The thing is, this FAQ was changed. Kickstarter helpfully tells us so:

Last updated: Monday Nov 14, 1:22pm EST

So, during the time he was asking for money, we were given the opportunity to
"pre-order" these flashlights that are described as already existing:

"the HexBright Flex is USB rechargeable and USB programmable."

NOT: "the HexBright Flex WILL BE USB rechargeable and WILL BE USB
programmable."

Then, about 2 months after he was supposed to ship, the FAQ changes to "You
are funding development of..."

So, the project says one thing, but the FAQ says another, and the wording on
the FAQ, updated 2 months after it should have started shipping, implies that
people who expected it to ship when promised weren't actually promised a
shipping product on any specific date.

~~~
kennywinker
I totally appreciate your perspective on this. But I think you were missing
part of the point of kickstarter.

These are projects, not products. You're making a donation, not buying
something. For that donation you are often promised a reward, but you are not
guaranteed one.

There is a certain amount of risk associated with backing a project on
kickstarter. Projects don't always turn out the way you hope. Budget issues,
design flaws, etc, are all par for the course.

I've backed a number of projects now. I just checked, and I've backed 15
projects out of which 9 have received funding ($346 pledged, $284 charged)
since August 2011. So far I have only received two items.

I hope to receive all the items I've funded, but I know that even with the
best intentions, not every project will be able to deliver.

Since you believed you were "purchasing" items, perhaps kickstarter needs to
do a better job of making it clear that what you are doing is making a
donation, and the whole thing is running on the honor system. They do say that
([http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backing%20a%20project#Ac...](http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backing%20a%20project#Acco)),
but I guess they could do a better job of stressing it.

Because it's a donation, it's my understanding that kickstarter, amazon, and
the police would have no real recourse unless there has been serious
fraudulent claims of some kind.

Anyway, I would urge you to change the way you look at kickstarter, and then
give it another go. I'm a huge fan of the model, and have enjoyed both the
items I've received so far. You can always give them for xmas next year :)

~~~
nodata
> You're making a donation, not buying something.

I'm not making a donation, I'm buying a product in advance that hasn't
finished being developed.

------
milurally
I don't see it as the worst project. I don't know why you are so dissapointed

~~~
DanBC
Kick Starter appears to need to manage people's expectations of projects a bit
better? People are not buying product, they're "investing" to help someone
create a product. The return on a successful investment is a cheap version of
that product, or some stickers, or a warm fuzzy feeling of helping someone.

------
jonursenbach
Without Apple-like innovation and fabrication technology, how could could they
got the aluminum casing to not completely block out the signal? It seemed like
the entire project was doomed from the start.

~~~
FireBeyond
"Apple-like innovation"? What's "Apple-like" about making an antenna? Wasn't
"Apple-like" the reason for free bumpers and "you're holding it wrong"?

~~~
swalsh
My guess is vast resources...

