
Google Noto Fonts - oneplusone
http://www.google.com/get/noto/
======
jdmitch
I wonder how the decisions for inclusion of languages were made, as there are
some very odd decisions. For example, Osmanya is a script created for the
Somali language that was hardly ever used (Somali literacy was only widespread
after the latin alphabet was adopted - previously Arabic was commonly used).
The population of actual users of this script is pretty indisputably 0.
100,000 would be a wildly ambitious estimate of the number of people who had
ever actually even seen the script.

On the other hand, Oriya, which has over 33 million native speakers, including
80% of India's Odisha state, does not appear to be supported.

~~~
lstamour
In their defense, when you click India and scroll down, it does say, "not
supported yet". Which leads me to believe they picked both languages with few
characters (or straightforward to render?) and those most common, and they'll
get to the rest shortly. :)

Oriya appears to be quite complicated to render:
[http://www.microsoft.com/typography/OpenTypeDev/oriya/intro....](http://www.microsoft.com/typography/OpenTypeDev/oriya/intro.htm)

Meanwhile, I wonder if this means we'll see OCR and ePubs for all kinds of
scripts now; or if this will help enable Google Translate in more languages?
;-)

~~~
soperj
Also maybe this was a %20 time thing and the programmer who started it just
wanted to do those languages (probably because they couldn't be found
elsewhere).

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
I thought they didn't do 20% time anymore.

~~~
rictic
It's still a thing, though it does depend to some degree on one's manager.

------
tokenadult
I like the implementation of CJK fonts in Noto, which was just released this
week. I particularly like that I can illustrate that the various Sinitic
languages ("Chinese dialects") do NOT all use the same written characters, so
that Chinese people who travel to different dialect regions sometimes find
written signs that they cannot read, even if they are literate in Modern
Standard Chinese. (I have seen this regional illiteracy on the part of native
speakers of Chinese in several contexts.)

How you might write the conversation

"Does he know how to speak Mandarin?

"No, he doesn't."

他會說普通話嗎？

他不會。

in Modern Standard Chinese characters contrasts with how you would write

"Does he know how to speak Cantonese?

"No, he doesn't."

佢識唔識講廣東話？

佢唔識。

in the Chinese characters used to write Cantonese. As will readily appear even
to readers who don't know Chinese characters (if you have a good Unicode
implementation enabled as you read Hacker News), many more words than
"Mandarin" and "Cantonese" differ between those sentences in Chinese
characters.

~~~
jlebar
I thought Han Unification meant that (most of the common) CJK characters were
represented by the same Unicode code points, and that the way to differentiate
like this is by specifying metadata that indicates the "language".

Obviously I'm wrong, because these are just regular Unicode characters,
without an HTML "lang" attribute.

What gives?

~~~
fenomas
Two separate issues. Pan-CJK fonts like Noto solve a problem that arises from
the fact that many CJK characters are only ever used in certain locales. Since
most CJK fonts are made for a given locale, they tend not to include any of
the (many) CJK characters never used in that locale. Hence, if you render
mixed CJK text in (say) a Japanese font, any characters that don't appear in
Japanese won't render at all. That's what (I believe) this comment refers to.

The Han Unification problem arises from the inverse case - characters that are
used in several languages but rendered differently depending on locale[0]. For
those characters, they'll render even without a pan-CJK font, but the problem
is they'll render in a way that's not appropriate for their locale.

[0] Another way to phrase this would be "distinct characters which share a
code point becaus Unicode mistakenly thinks they're a single character whose
rendering differs by locale". The difference is basically subjective.

~~~
amake
> if you render mixed CJK text in (say) a Japanese font, any characters that
> don't appear in Japanese won't render at all.

In theory, yes, but that almost never happens. What really happens is that any
missing characters will fall back to a different font, so the text is legible
but looks terrible from an aesthetic point of view.

------
jpatokal
This is brilliant, particularly the newly released Noto CJK:
[http://www.google.com/get/noto/cjk.html](http://www.google.com/get/noto/cjk.html)

I'm not aware of _any_ other font that does a decent job of handling all of
Simplified Chinese, Traditional Chinese, Japanese, and Korean simultaneously,
and with light, bold, thin etc variants to boot. Most existing fonts, even
expensive commercial ones, are lucky to support two, and even then usually
regular text only.

------
mirzmaster
Still no Nastaliq [1] for Urdu and Persian script. There's a great piece on
Medium [2] about the death of the Urdu script at the hands of the more
structured Arabic Naskh font.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasta%CA%BFl%C4%ABq_script](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasta%CA%BFl%C4%ABq_script)

[2] [https://medium.com/@eteraz/the-death-of-the-urdu-
script-9ce9...](https://medium.com/@eteraz/the-death-of-the-urdu-
script-9ce935435d90)

~~~
sandGorgon
Could you file a bug at
[https://code.google.com/p/noto/issues/list](https://code.google.com/p/noto/issues/list)
? This is a great place for @eteraz to get involved.

~~~
sandGorgon
Since nobody did it, I filed a bug at
[https://code.google.com/p/noto/issues/detail?id=39](https://code.google.com/p/noto/issues/detail?id=39)
through my phone.

the title is messed up, but I hope the message is clear.

~~~
kps
Since this article is still on the front page of HN, let me paste the
response: “We are working on a Noto Nastaliq as well. So stay tuned.”

------
w1ntermute
Hopefully this will be a big step forward in solving the problem of Han
unification:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_unification](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_unification)

It's infuriating how many Japanese sites still don't use Unicode, purportedly
because of this issue (though I suspect that it's just another example of
Japan lagging when it comes to web/computer tech).

~~~
yuubi
Oddly, the following more modest proposal hasn't gotten much traction:
characters that share history but have divergent graphical representations in
the various dialects of alphabetic script shall share codepoints, and a
mechanism beyond the scope of Unicode (like lang attributes or plain
guesswork) shall be used to decide whether a given codepoint means L or ᴫ or Λ
or whatever.

~~~
fenomas
Actually I think that's roughly how things work today. It's not my area, but
here's how this was explained to me recently by a colleague (the lead font guy
at Adobe Japan):

There are two ways of dealing with glyphs that share code points. The first is
TTC (truetype collection) fonts. A TTC is basically one set of glyphs with
several sets of mappings (i.e. which code point maps to which glyph). When you
install it, assuming your computer groks ttc, your system shows you a separate
font for each mapping. Taking for example Source Han Sans, which adobe just
released - if you go to the download page[0] and get the complete version (the
"OTC" one), you get a bunch of files like "SourceHanSans-Bold.ttc". If you
install one of them you'll see four new fonts: "Source Han Sans J", K, SC, and
TC. Then when you use the font, depending on which font name you used the
system will change which mapping it applies to the combined set of glyphs.
(Hence the choice of font name is the selection mechanism you described.)

The second way is that TrueType fonts have a way to build locale settings into
the font. I'm less clear on the details here but apparently it's similar to
TTC behind the scenes, except that the mappings are associated with locales -
so in an app that supports TT locales, even if you select "Foo J" as your
font, when the locale was simplified Chinese you'd get the SC glyph. Of course
now the selection mechanism is whether the application knows what locale the
content is. (And also whether it supports the mechanism - I don't know how
widespread this is.) Either way though, in principle you get different glyphs
for the same code point, depending on context.

Or anyway that's the understanding I took away as a font layperson - happy to
be corrected.

[0] [http://sourceforge.net/projects/source-han-
sans.adobe/files/](http://sourceforge.net/projects/source-han-
sans.adobe/files/)

~~~
yuubi
The modest proposal was to extend this approach with all its complications to
western alphabetic scripts where possible. Of course nobody wants to do that
for obvious reasons, which also apply to the various languages that use Han-
derived characters. The extra mechanisms required to work around unified Han
remind me of the pre-unicode days when you needed to know what language a text
was in to render it.

------
keehun
I think this is amazing. I have never seen Cherokee glyphs that beautifully
rendered before. Apparently there are still missing scripts, but this is a
great step forward. This couldn't have come cheap, and I'm happy that Google
is investing effort into this.

------
abrowne
The Google Code page used to have a comment on the origins of the name. Noto
is short for 'no tofu', tofu being the rectangles you get when you don't have
a font covering that glyph.

------
CitizenKane
This is incredible and is going to be very useful for people developing
applications for use in Eastern Asia. Nailing typefaces for Chinese, Japanese,
and Korean is a huge challenge. Noto and the accompanying Source Han Sans is
going to be a huge boon for people in Eastern Asia and hopefully it will have
widespread adoption.

Sadly, it's probably still not possible to use as a Webfont. A single font
weight is over 8mb, but there is a distinct possibility this could go into
mobile devices and operating systems which would be awesome.

~~~
twerquie
I wonder it could be split up, and the necessary segment(s) could be
dynamically loaded based on OS language preferences?

~~~
footpath
It is possible. There is a technology called dynamic subsetting that only
loads the necessary glyphs on a web page:

[http://www.monotype.com/services/screen-imaging-
solutions/dy...](http://www.monotype.com/services/screen-imaging-
solutions/dynamicsubsetting)

[http://en.justfont.com/](http://en.justfont.com/)

------
teddyh
In these enlightened Unicode days, why are fonts still “for” a language?

~~~
bazzargh
Well, one reason would be that your web font would be 134Mb or so? (looking at
the size of the comprehensive Noto download)

The other is simple practicality - these things take time to develop, you can
either wait until all the glyphs are done, or release subsets that cover
languages as you work; a subset that covers part of a language isn't very
useful but subsets that cover whole languages are.

~~~
ivanca
That is a technical problem to solve. There should be a way for browsers to
only download the characters being rendered in the current page; so even if
the file is 134Mb it could get only the little pieces of it that it needs.

~~~
pornel
There is a solution already: you split the font into separate files declare
which characters are present in each file:

[https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/unicode-
ran...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/unicode-range)

------
shared4you
I have been using Noto fonts for a more than 6 months now (mostly Indic fonts)
and quite pleased with them. And just saw that they have "Noto Sans Brahmi" in
the pipeline. Although Brahmi script (ancient Indian script used around 300
BC) entered Unicode in 2010, there is not a single font available that covers
Brahmi.

I also couldn't find any font that covers mathematical symbols from the SMP.

EDIT: Just downloaded the zip archive. Unix permissions for the Bengali and
Gurmukhi fonts are different from the rest of them.

~~~
sp332
For math Symbols: Cambria Math and DejaVu Sans should have them.
[http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fontsbyrange.html#u1d400](http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fontsbyrange.html#u1d400)

------
idoco
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights" I love the
fact that they use The Universal Declaration of Human Rights as the text for
showcasing the fonts, using every opportunity to stand for human rights!

------
smrtinsert
I am in love. Why don't they offer a monospace programming version? Noto Sans
outdoes my Consolas easily for clarity. No easy feat! Please release a Noto
Sans Code Google!

~~~
amass
If they released a monospace version, I would switch from Inconsolata!
Although it is probably more important to continue work on supporting more
languages.

------
rurounijones
Is there any reason that these could not be included as standard fonts in
windows, linux, mac, android, IOS etc at some point in the near future?

~~~
marcoms
No technical reasons, but it would be unlikely for Apple or Microsoft to adopt
a font made by Google, when their own alternatives exist, despite technical
superiority. Android already uses Roboto, which has been heavily invested in
for Android 4+ and now with Material design too. Of course, by Linux I'm
assuming you mean the popular distributions of it like Ubuntu, but even Ubuntu
has its own font which it is unlikely to change - other non-"branded" distros
probably would be the only ones who might.

~~~
rurounijones
Was hoping for a moment that we could all come together in harmony and enjoy
universal access to fonts for all languages without relying on webfont
kludges... hope springs eternal

------
janlukacs
Might be just me but i don't like the Sans Serif font at all, renders really
bad in Safari.

~~~
sebnukem2
It looks awfully blurry in Firefox on Linux.

~~~
peedy
On the website, they are pre rendered into images. Example,
[http://www.google.com/get/noto/images/samples/noto-
sans_en_4...](http://www.google.com/get/noto/images/samples/noto-
sans_en_400_normal.png)

------
suyash
Anyone know what license they are released under and if it is ok to use them
freely for commercial projects?

~~~
pbhjpbhj
NotoSans/NotoSerif downloads have a LICENSE file which starts "Apache License
Version 2.0, January 2004
[http://www.apache.org/licenses/"](http://www.apache.org/licenses/").

------
theandrewbailey
I really like Noto Sans. From what I can tell, it's a fork of Open Sans. For
the Latin alphabet it's mostly the same, but with a single story lowercase g.

~~~
abrowne
Which itself is a redrawing of Droid Sans. This Typophile thread has some
comparisons, and a couple comments by the designer, Steve Matteson:
[http://typophile.com/node/101655](http://typophile.com/node/101655)

------
jzzocc
[https://www.ruby-lang.org](https://www.ruby-lang.org) has used Noto for a
while and it looks great.

------
zvrba
I looked at sample serif font, and it renders both blurry and jagged. At that
size, this is quite an "achievement".

~~~
f055
I have the same effect on Safari for Mac. This is lame.

------
waitingkuo
Nice, so glad that it support for Chinese!

------
greenpresident
Note that this neatly integrates into their plan of digitizing all books ever
written. Next: Brahimi Captchas.

------
hownottowrite
This page seemed really slow on mobile. I thought it was just me but...

[http://developers.google.com/speed/pagespeed/insights/?url=h...](http://developers.google.com/speed/pagespeed/insights/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fget%2Fnoto%2F)

~~~
tripzilch
On my netbook, Firefox warned me about an unresponsive script.

------
deskamess
I find the Canada->Cree glyphs very interesting (geometrical). The art from
the area is also very beautiful. If you are ever in Ottawa a trip to the
Canadian Museum of History (was Civilization) is well worth it.

Cherokee (US) is one fine looking set of glyphs.

------
marcoms
Nice to see Material design in use on their sites for one of the first times!

~~~
scotty79
Not so sure. Commandeering of my scroll-bar and slight enlargement of clicked
element along with dark outer glow didn't sit well with me.

------
mahmoudhossam
I have a question. Why would anyone list Greek under "Egypt"?

~~~
Tortoise
Greek was spoken in Egypt for 1000 years. I imagine it's not that common
today.

------
vincentchan
Will Noto be available in Google Web Fonts later? That will be awesome.

~~~
kijeda
It has been for quite some time (at least a year).

[https://www.google.com/fonts/specimen/Noto+Sans](https://www.google.com/fonts/specimen/Noto+Sans)

~~~
vincentchan
But this is for english only, not for other languages.

~~~
antihero
Link at the top of the page,
[https://www.google.com/fonts/earlyaccess](https://www.google.com/fonts/earlyaccess)
has fonts, including Noto.

~~~
cheesy
Unfortunately no Noto CJK available yet

------
SimeVidas
Largest .ttf in collection: 762KB

Smallest .otf in collection: 4093KB

------
insky
Took me a while to work out just how to preview fonts on that page.

------
dnqthao
Nice, we look forward in the future for Chu Nom scripts.

~~~
sandGorgon
I suggest you file a bug
[https://code.google.com/p/noto/issues/list](https://code.google.com/p/noto/issues/list)

------
callesgg
My safari on my ipad crashes when I visit that page.

------
cihangirsavas
it is like NATO :)

------
wahsd
Interesting behavior when you do an in-page search for a language.

