
Long Term Depression Permanently Changes the Brain - thg
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-02-years-depression-brain.html
======
arbre
Just a touch of optimism here. I suffered from depression for 7 years, then
started meditation. I can say I am now very happy after 4 years of regular
practice. I don't really care if my brain was a bit damaged then. Don't lose
hope, everyone has a big potential of happiness just waiting to be explored
inside. Have a happy life!

~~~
tekkk
I am agreeing with the other comment(s) here asking if you could explain
further how has meditation specifically helped you? And what/how do you
meditate?

I too feel that there's another happy universe inside my head were I to
distract myself to believe in another reality. But it's just biological facts
that come to maul me and digesting uncomfortable thoughts by yourself is not
very efficient way of solving the issue. I am not living up to my potential
and the momentary voices, although painful, are a reminder to me that I have
to change something to feel good about myself. I think in the heart of it is
the need for a constant validation through something, other people's love and
affection mostly, that you can feel that your life is worth living.

In the sense same thing (maybe) that you can do with meditation and keep those
positive neural pathways from growing shut.

~~~
trevyn
I’m not a fan of meditation, but recognizing that you can actually _choose_
how to feel can be very empowering.

I suspect that some people get locked in a catch-22 like the following:

1) Because they feel down, they empathize with other people who feel down, and
find it personally important to be just, helpful, extra considerate, and
thoughtful toward others.

2) Because of this, any indication of injustice or discomfort feels like a
personal affront to their values and identity.

3) Any anger or pain resulting from this causes a reaffirmation of #1, and the
cycle is reinforced.

~~~
tekkk
Well I can tell you a story about the other end of spectrum for self-
reinforcing thoughts.

I don't know if you have a social anxiety but after an embarrassing social
incident you ruminate on your behaviour right? Well take that to its ultimate
level and you are constantly being possessed with thoughts about not thinking
about a thought that is driving you insane.

Just a small idea of the feedback loop: think about a thought. Now try not to
think about it. Well you probably can do it but think that you are so anxious
that you actually cannot do it. And the act of thinking about it makes you
anxious so there's really no way of exiting the loop. Anxiety makes you
anxious so to say and you feel fear so terrible that it makes fear you even
more. You wake up thinking about it and you fall asleep.

Yeah it might not sound relatable but were you to discover the _feeling_ that
I mean. Oh boy. There exists emotions inside of us so terrible that you'd wish
no human would have to discover. What cured it or well stopped the loop was
distracting myself long enough for the anxiety to dissipate and not to
remember the feeling (and therefore not to reinforce it). If there was a
similar way to do it but for a happy thought I'd be all for it.

~~~
stonedartist
> There exists emotions inside of us so terrible that you'd wish no human
> would have to discover.

This. I have this terrible feeling that I cannot explain; It is so nebulous
that trying to decipher it has taken lots of time, effort, intense/extreme
emotional roller coasters, and I still don't know how to suppress it. I feel
like I have literally lost several brain cells in the span of a year, lost
several IQ points, lost my ability of sharp logical reasoning,
analytical/critical thinking and also memory retaining power. All that I have
now is emotional instability, irritability, impulsive anger. I'm sorry that I
am pouring my symptoms here, which should definitely be dealt with a shrink.
But whatever.

~~~
kuerbel
I have the same feeling, although it is going on for more than a year. More
like three. Sometimes it feels like I had a small stroke or something like
that (just as a comparison, I don't want to insult anyone who had a stroke
which is a thousand times worse than what I have).

Just three years ago it was so easy to learn new things, to discover... now it
feels like my brain is failing me. I have to say, I feel disabled. And I hope
it will get better again. Because right now it sometimes feels hard to even
hold a conversation and not forgetting what other people told me ten seconds
ago. And my whole train of thought feels so... scatty, if that's the right
word for it. Scatterbrained. There is a psychological term for it - thought
disorder, and it's a symptom of depression, but I do not feel depressed in a
clinical sense. Also my grades are still ok, at a US college it would be
around an A- or B+.

I miss my "old" brain though. I'll definitely try meditation.

~~~
stonedartist
> Because right now it sometimes feels hard to even hold a conversation and
> not forgetting what other people told me ten seconds ago.

Oh my God! You just described me! I forget so many things that were told to me
moments ago. It's getting harder by day because I have a job now, and it's
getting tougher everyday. I have to keep in mind what the clients describe,
and even if I'm jotting them down, I tend to forget what was said 5 seconds
ago. For example, if I was told to do something in a sequence, I would totally
mess it up. I can't perform a task in a sequence. Like for instance, if they
ask me to perform a task in this particular order of A->B->C, I would do
F->10->#.

I seem to have lost my resolute mannerism. I rage at everything. i rage quit,
rage fight. I used to solve challenges that come to me logically, now I just
approach in a violent way. Like, if someone is being a bully, kill him, if
someone is doing a task ineffectively, shoot him. I have episodes of deep
depression and in that time I get a lot of suicidal and homicidal thoughts.
Sometimes I fear myself that, given a heated situation, if someone tells me I
am wrong, old-me would have approached in a logical manner and solved it
diplomatically, now I just fear myself that I would kill anybody who is
confronting me. I feel like if I unleash my anger onto someone, I would go to
pour all my bundled up anger of over 2 years on that person and maybe kill
him; My anger is pressuring up day by day.

I feel like I have so many things to do to improve myself or come out of it,
but I'm too tired, lazy and impatient. Just wanted to get these things off of
my chest man. Maybe this is the first time I'm opening up to someone. I should
see a shrink.

------
yeukhon
I am 26, and I suffered depression and other mental health issues for many
years. I have to tell you: it is hard to survive. Till this day, 1 year after
my first attempt, I still cannot recover from my mental illness. I am back to
school studying neuroscience and psychology, but ironically I still end up
being depressed.

No words can describe the hardship a mental illness patient has to endure. It
sucks and it sucks so much I have been cutting myself constantly again.
Bipolar, depression, personality disorder. I have them. I overdose and
continue to abuse my psychotic drugs on a regular basis in order to stabilize
my mood and sleep schedule.

As I am typing this, I am already losing my mind but I will be fine in a few
hours, but the cycle will repeat. I feel like I am The Boy Who Cries Wolf, but
in reality, I am not.

Can I die? No. I am 26 and I have been hospitalized several times already.
Friends will leave, family will be worried, and I can lose my job. On social
media, I either have to stay positive or just keep my mouth shut so no one
needs to see the negativity. I guess the reason I want to express my struggle
in public from time to time is to because I want to outside of my social
circle. I have pretty much abandoned social media in general. I depend on
approvals and romantic love to substation my self-worth because I have none. I
compensate my insecurities and lack of self identity by trying to be other
people's "savior".

If you have a family or a friend who is suffering some form of mental illness,
yeah, give them constant reassurance. It's very difficult to find someone to
talk to without being judged and offer advice such as "you have to control
your mind." I can't when I am not in control of my mind. I feel possessed and
that's what mental illness is. It's a possession of an uncontrolled mind.

No need to report to my ex-employer / future employer. I am safe, and
currently I am not employed anyway (well just resigned).

~~~
mr_overalls
From a random keyboard in a small town in the Midwest, my heart goes out to
you, Internet stranger. I'm so sorry that you have had to endure this kind of
suffering.

I had fairly severe depression for several years (although probably not as bad
as yours), and it affected my self-esteem, like yours seems to be affecting
you. It's just not your fault, friend. Easy for me to say, right? But go easy
on yourself. You didn't ask for the combination of genes & environment that
has predisposed you to this.

I'm sure you have professionals to advise you on the best course of treatment,
but for what it's worth, regular exercise has helped me tremendously, as much
as medication and self-acceptance.

------
grinsekatze
Well, I think it is safe to assume that Long Term Happiness changes the brain
"permanently" in the same manner.

How about this: the brain is ever changing. Our previous states of
consciousness manifest in our brain, which can be observed when we look at it.

~~~
cgriswald
> Well, I think it is safe to assume that Long Term Happiness changes the
> brain "permanently" in the same manner.

That would be a poor assumption. The "change" that was observed by the
researchers was an increase in the amount of a protein which is an indicator
for brain inflammation. Per the article, you see the same type of inflammation
with diseases like Alzheimers. The takeaway is that depression is a
progressive illness and current treatment doesn't address this progression.

~~~
devmunchies
> current treatment doesn't address this progression

I myself would rather see a prevention than a treatment. But there is no money
in preventative care.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
"But there is no money in preventative care"

Yes, there is. You just aren't looking in the right places.

Employers. Employees. Insurance companies and those that pay for insurance.
Governments that provide health care to some or all of its citizens. Taxpayers
that fund those programs.

~~~
Groxx
That's great to hear!

Can I bill you for the difference between what I pay for preventative care
after insurance, vs what this implies the cost should be?

------
goodroot
Hrmph. Poppycock. I grew up with depression. I suffered from it for over two
decades. Between Ayahuasca and daily meditation, I have most definitely
unwoven any of these "permanent" changes.

You can always, always get better. The brain is plastic. The spirit is
fearless.

~~~
icc97
Similar to the other top-voted comment here [0], specifically what type of
meditation did you follow.

I've been using headspace for a couple of years. Where as it feels positive, I
can't see that I've noticed any fundamental change.

[0]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16495483](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16495483)

~~~
goodroot
My meditation practice started with Vipassana meditation:

[https://www.dhamma.org/en/about/vipassana](https://www.dhamma.org/en/about/vipassana)

After dabbling for awhile with nothing but a pillow and my psyche, I
participated in a 10-day silent meditation program by Dhamma. They do them in
many places; they're free -- the food was great, the instruction, and the
accommodations were excellent. It was powerful.

Daily meditation is a slow, gradual process. A couple years of consistent
practice in most case should result in a noticeable change in perspectives. I
enjoy Headspace for the routine but philosophically Andy never gets too deep.
That can be good a general audience, but for the intellectual, perhaps not.

I mentioned Ayahuasca; I know this is not everyones cup of tea and hesitate to
recommend it to due to the amount of New Age dogma and legal ambiguity that
surrounds it. But in my own personal experience, I had something deep, a knot
in my spirit that needed to be unwoven.

My Opa (German for Grandfather) was conscripted in WW2, work-camps, forced
enlistment, combat, murder, torture, the whole wretched shabang. He escape, to
Canada, had a family. He was, as a result of his environments, understandably
terrorizing. He suffered. My father suffered. My brother suffered. I suffered.
Born into it, like I mentioned.

As a busy etch-a-sketch becomes a clean slate for new art, so did my mind,
body, and spirit after Ayahuasca. It was only when that knot had been removed
that the tools I had learned through meditation could take me, day by day,
into a beautiful new narrative where I am content and fulfilled.

Perhaps you need something to get that knot out. I truly hope that you find
it, and give you all my love and empathy, dear stranger.

------
lazerpants
Actual paper:
[http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-03...](http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366\(18\)30048-8/fulltext)

------
dpflan
This article about treating depression is also on the front page at the
moment. Seems good to link for more references and discussion:

>
> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16492489](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16492489)

------
aantix
Does the simple expectation of happiness exasperate the symptoms of
depression? I found Dr. Jordan Peterson's commentary on this a helpful
perspective.

"Life is complex and tragic and difficult, and the problem with the public
portrayal of the ideal state of humanness as happiness is that it makes all of
these young people feel ashamed of their own suffering. They feel that if
they’re suffering and if they find their life tragic in its essence that that
means there’s something wrong with them, and instantly that makes it
impossible for them to communicate anything real about their own tragedy."

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySxVlE2gSrY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySxVlE2gSrY)

~~~
tryitnow
To be clear, Peterson's commentary is not original. M. Scott Peck, the Buddha,
and literally 100s of other philosophers and psychologists have shared similar
insights.

Remarkably, those thinkers managed to share this insight without offending
half the population in order to drive book sales and line their pockets.

tldr; there are better sources of this idea than Mr. Peterson.

~~~
cgmg
> To be clear, Peterson's commentary is not original. M. Scott Peck, the
> Buddha, and literally 100s of other philosophers and psychologists have
> shared similar insights. Remarkably, those thinkers managed to share this
> insight without offending half the population in order to drive book sales
> and line their pockets.

What point are you trying to make with this snide remark?

That sources should be disregarded if their ideas “offend” 50% of the
population (a claim for which you provided no evidence)?

That sources should be disregarded if they made money from book sales? This
would mean disregarding almost all sources.

That a commentary is "unoriginal" if someone in the past has "shared similar
insights"? This is pure nonsense.

~~~
sudosteph
I don't care either way on JP and his book sales, but you have to admit that
the quote boils down to "Life is suffering". Which has been the the core
belief of Buddhist philosophy since it started. So yeah, that's a pretty
unoriginal idea to attribute to someone else.

~~~
cgmg
> the quote boils down to "Life is suffering"

Not in any meaningful sense. Clearly the quote contains more than that. It's
like saying "everything boils down to A = A" (Aristotle, Metaphysics),
therefore anything following from that is an "unoriginal" idea.

------
jimmy1
> evidence for neuroprogression (ie, increasing brain pathology with longer
> duration of illness) is scarce.

I get that this is an academic paper, so they need empirical evidence to base
their study, but this is a case, to me, of anyone who has ever hung out long
enough with depressed people whether that is going to support groups or living
in a toxic environment, that, anecdotally, it is very apparent that this is
the case.

Additionally, as a casual purveyor of recent neuroscience, the findings aren't
surprising, not to take away from the accomplishments. Long term <any state of
mind> permanently changes the brain. The brain isn't this static object where
all your innate characteristics are bestowed upon you at birth -- your brain
changes every day. Fighting this millennial-long engrained preconception is
going to be the biggest challenge for a wide variety of mental health concerns
in terms of getting public buy in to actually start solving the mental health
crisis this country is currently facing.

~~~
JackFr
> as a casual purveyor of recent neuroscience,

pur·vey /pərˈvā/ v. provide or supply (food, drink, or other goods) as one's
business

~~~
jimmy1
Definition #2: a person or group that spreads or promotes an idea, view, etc.

I will admit it probably wasn't obvious that's what I was aiming for -- to
clarify -- I mentioned depression support groups and family that suffer from
depression in my first sentence. I now spend time trying to support others who
are struggling with mental health (my family included) with what I study --
articles, books, journals, publishings, and whatever lectures I have time to
watch on youtube.

------
indubitably
Well that’s depressing.

~~~
tuespetre
Yes. It is a feedback loop, much like we see with the climate... aaaand
writing this comment fed into it.

------
richard___
Bio, psycho, social. You have to realize that depression is caused by
everything from sleep, to the food you eat, to your daily habits, to how your
relationship with your parents is, to how you treat your dating partners. A
drug can't make up for all these things.

~~~
runeb
It seems to me that the psychological component makes conquering the other two
impossibly difficult for some people with depression. In that case medication
could temporarily take that dimension out of the equation so the person can
actually get some beneficial work done on the other parts of their lives.
Medication should be seen as a temporary "crutch" in my view.

~~~
strangegecko
That's how I explain my history to myself. I have failed to get significant
beneficial work done while I could.

It is really hard if you're deficient in all areas. I'm facing biological /
physical health issues, I'm socially isolated and I experience toxic mental
patterns. Whatever I try, I will drag these issues around with me.

~~~
runeb
Good luck, I wish you all the best. Be aware of your negative thought
patterns. Absolutist statements like your last sentence is not necessarily
true and a real symptom of depression. Change your internal monologue and good
things can follow. Change it to "at this moment these issues are holding me
down".

------
randyrand
Interestingly, anything you can remember for your entire life also permanently
changes your brain =)

~~~
cottsak
And things you can't! (where "can remember" == pathway thats easily
accessible, many memories aren't easy to recover but they're still there)

------
erikpukinskis
It’s a bit of a rabbit hole, but Jonathan Blow’s “Ideas for a programming
language about games” and all the subsequent videos have totally
revolutionized how I code:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TH9VCN6UkyQ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TH9VCN6UkyQ)

The irony of it is I’m a JavaScript programmer and Blow hates JavaScript, he
thinks it’s antithetical to his style of coding.

But really, I think the ideas are very generic: he proposes what I think of as
“data-driven programming” which in my head means “only move the bits you have
to.”

And that core idea maps to any substrate. Blow is offended by the idea of
targeting something other than processor instructions, and Jai (his new
language) develops along those lines.

But I have no problem applying the same ideas to V8... you can really use any
substrate... I could target Minecraft blocks and code in the same way. It just
requires stepping back and asking what the minimum number of writes needed to
get that substrate where it needs to be. And then rather than writing some
monstrous declarative programming structure like Rails or Webpack, you just
write the minimal function calls needed to make those bits flip and thing
more.

Blow writes a whole new language and compiler based on those concepts, but I
find the ideas translate to any arbitrary API target.

------
xkcd-sucks
"Long term depression" canonically describes decreased synaptic "connection
strength" and is certainly not a bad thing (otherwise, your neural net's
weights all tend towards 1).

"Chronic depression" would be a much better term for the title.

------
ada1981
I’d like to see the outcomes of therapitic psychedelics on this same protein
marker.

------
plg
how do they know that it's not the reverse: that the changes in the brain they
observe cause long term depression?

~~~
Florin_Andrei
It's likely that both sides influence each other.

But same (just in the opposite direction) is true for positive states of mind.

------
danschumann
Happiness is sort of like a flexible muscle. At first, you may need to
consciously and actively push on it, but it'll stretch, and over time, it
takes less effort to stretch it further. Of course, it's not exactly similar,
because sadness/anger push up against happiness, and stuff needs to be
eliminated or looked at from another angle to remove the obstacles. I'd also
recommend Wim Hof stuff.. the breathing technique is great.

------
doktrin
> Others may have persistent episodes over a decade with worsening symptoms,
> and increasing difficulty going to work or carrying out routine activities.

Anecdotally, this seems increasingly true.

------
w_t_payne
Really interesting. I wonder if there is any evidence that corticosteroids
like kenalog alleviate the symptoms of depression?

------
avodonosov
The article doesn't say permanently. There is no evidence that after
depression is treated the inflammation remains.

------
vectorEQ
long term anything changes the brain, this is how neural connections work....
if you're long term depressed it solidifies connections, if you're long term
'happy' it reconnects others and solidifies those. as other person said,
meditation can help a lot in this, and/or self-reflection.

------
callesgg
Nice that we are making some progress.

Long term depression will effect the way you think i.e. your brain, that seams
obvious to me.

~~~
Scriptor
It's obvious that it affects your brain while you have depression. However, I
don't think it's obvious that the effects would be permanent.

~~~
mrec
/me fantasizes about non-permanent long-term depression...

------
RobertRoberts
This just in, long term anything changes something. Don't forget your pills.
/rant

------
zombieprocesses
Or changes in the brain cause depression?

Isn't it more likely that depression is a symptom of the brain rather than the
brain being a symptom of depression?

~~~
swearwolves
This was my first thought too. The article doesn't mention this at all.

It sounds like they just pulled people off the street, tested for the protein,
and assumed causality. Wouldn't they have to had tested the same subset of
people over time to make their claim?

------
MrPatan
"Long term permanently changes the brain" FTFY

