
Don't learn Dvorak - dudzik
https://dudzik.co/digress-into-development/don-t-learn-dvorak/
======
jamesg
If you're considering learning Dvorak, I'd strongly recommend considering
Colemak instead. I tried Dvorak with the hope that it would mitigate RSI, but
it spreads the work among fingers pretty unevenly -- I really ended up just
moving the problem rather than fixing it (mostly to my right pinky).

Colemak is (relatively) easy to learn if you know QWERTY, and it's been life-
changing for me: I can work for more hours of the day, and I suspect more
years of my life with Colemak.

Interestingly, I tried configuring my phone for Colemak a while ago and had to
switch it back. The relatively small movements you make with Colemak meant
that the swipe typing thing was just about useless -- it just couldn't
discriminate between words.

~~~
dudzik
What is your experience when you have to use the QWERTY layout? Is it a
frustrating experience or can you use it just fine given that Colemak is more
similar to it than Dvorak?

~~~
jamesg
At this point I'm pretty terrible at QWERTY on a physical keyboard. I'm fine
with it on phones and tablets for some reason, but my brain is pretty hard-
wired for Colemak on physical keyboards at this point. I also use a Kinesis
Advantage keyboard which adds to the context switch when I have to use a
different computer (though this is less significant for sure).

If it's a Mac, Colemak is one of the pre-installed layouts, so if I need to
work on someone else's computer I'll just enable it while I work on it and
remove it afterwards. Otherwise I can manage, but it does slow me down quite a
bit, and I'll have to look down at my hands pretty frequently. You immediately
notice the extra workload though: Colemak is pretty low effort, but QWERTY
just feels like finger moshing to me now.

I'm pretty sure it's possible to remain proficient in both, but QWERTY was
sufficiently destructive to my hands that I use it as little as possible.

------
ninjakeyboard
Learn Colemak instead IMO - I've been using it for about 7-8 years. Here are
my remarks to address your gripes from a long time alt-layout typist.

FWIW your ability to type on QWERTY returns after a while - you just need to
keep using both. It's like a switch changes although it helps to have visual
queues to get back into gear with qwerty I find. Otherwise my keyboards are
all blank now including a blank kinesis advantage. If I use qwerty I need to
look at the keys to start typing usually.

And my typing speed is probably slower than it was when I was using qwerty. I
was reaching 120wpm peak on qwerty, maybe could do 100wpm with colemak
(haven't checked) but I type much better as I learned the new layout with
discipline - eg no cheating with wrong finger on keys - and I move my hands
much less so my RSI is better. You can visibly see wear on my home row - a
sheen that's on those keys from pressing them more than the other keys. My co-
worker says it looks like I'm hacking on the matrix because my fingers don't
appear to move when I'm typing.

~~~
stouset
As someone else who learned and still uses Colemak... it's just not worth it
in the long-term unless you're using it to address something specific like
chronic RSI.

QWERTY does return to you, sort of, but only if you still actively use it in
some other contexts. If you don't use it regularly, you'll lose proficiency in
it and not really be able to easily switch between the two (though in my own
experience I did retain some of the muscle memory, it was just much more
error-prone). I'm at the point now where I can somewhat easily switch between
the two, but it's _very_ context-specific. My fingers recognize my laptop
keyboard and gaming machine keyboard and instinctively use Colemak and QWERTY
for them, respectively. But there are still times where my brain gets into an
"undefined state" where I can't figure out which layout a machine is using or
which layout my fingers are attempting to type, and as far as I can tell I end
up typing something like a nonsensical hybrid mashup between them which is
surprisingly sticky and difficult to recover from.

In the end, I believe my typing speed is something like 10%–15% faster than
what it used to be with QWERTY, but I don't feel there's many contexts where
I'm genuinely limited by typing speed. On the other hand until I become semi-
fluent in QWERTY again, it was maddeningly difficult to use other people's
computers.

~~~
hajile
I sort of agree, but I think it's better to prevent RSI than to manage it.

~~~
ninjakeyboard
yeah my goal is to live a long and happy life of hacking and coding. My health
is more important than being able to type a search into bob's computer without
looking at the keyboard. But I was having a LOT of wrist pain.

------
starpilot
_Keyboard layout doesn 't matter for typing speed_. There are endless videos
on YouTube of people typing 90+ WPM with _two fingers_. I use Dvorak at home
because it's more comfortable and I hope will prevent RSI in the future. I
keep my work laptop in Qwerty because sometimes other people have to type on
it. I switch between both layouts with ease. My Qwerty typing speed is
slightly slower, but that has not had material impacts on my work. I much more
enjoy typing in Dvorak. Everything in this article is a non-issue, and for the
biggest reason for switching, preventing RSI, he admits, "it might be worth a
shot."

~~~
briatx
Using an ergonomic split keyboard will do far more to reduce RSI than any
particular keyboard layout.

~~~
maxhq
I second this. Since I use a split keyboard with a trackball placed in the
middle my hand and right arm problems are all gone.

~~~
jgalentine007
I use a 60% keyboard and that solved it for me, reaching for the mouse seems
to cause all of my issues.

------
dfabulich
The author complains that his QWERTY muscle memory went away when learning
Dvorak. This doesn't match my experience. I can still use QWERTY, somewhat
slower than before I learned Dvorak, but not much, and since I use Dvorak 99%
of the time, it's no big deal.

~~~
Thiez
This matches my experience. I automatically switch to QWERTY when I use
someone else's computer, to the point where I get confused when I use the
computer of one of my colleagues that also uses Dvorak.

If you set up some shortcuts to switch between layouts then other people using
your computer is not a problem either.

~~~
mikeash
It takes me about a minute to switch gears, then I’m fine. I started using
Dvorak full time over 20 years ago.

~~~
dnautics
The hardest I find is when i use the keyboard of someone else I know who
happens to use Dvorak, there is about a minute of wtf dude... sometimes even
if I know they use Dvorak!!

~~~
isodude
It's also a great party trick. I once lent my computer to my daugther and her
buddy, it was kind weird for them that no keys matched up, but even weirder
when I showed them I could easily switch between the two. They were so sure I
wouldn't be able to type with qwerty. Their faces at that point were priceless
:)

------
StillBored
The other computers thing rings very true.

I switched to dvorak in college for about two semesters, cause it seemed like
it would make my typing faster. (I actually was a very good touch typist
having taking a proper typing class in HS that cured my 4 finger self-learned
typing habit).

It only took me a few days before I could actually touch type dvorak. I was
really happy because it seemed dvorak was going to be great. But then I kept
having to use lab computers, or friends machines and I just couldn't switch
back to qwerty for a "session". This resulted in lots of hunt and pecking. If
I used the machine for >15 minutes without switching the layout the qwerty
would start to come back, then I wouldn't be able to use my own dvorak machine
without another 10-15 minute struggle to switch back.

The result was that I never got as fast with dvorak as my previous qwerty
speeds, and my qwerty skills were pretty much non-existent.

I think in my case learning the new layout wasn't the problem. The problem was
learning to switch layouts quickly and despite struggling with the problem for
nearly a year I eventually concluded that it was going to take me years to
learn the skill of switching at will. So one weekend after spending 1/2 a day
sharing a machine with my boss I switched my keyboard layout back to qwerty.

Although, similarly I use the exact same keyboard model at home and at work
because I discovered switching between physical keyboards affects my accuracy
(and therefore speed). Its not really the base character set (a-z) that is the
problem, its all symbolic stuff that I type as part of programming.

------
klodolph
Before I switched to Dvorak, I had RSI problems. I still have RSI problems,
but they are much less severe and much less frequent. The difference is stark.
It makes a huge difference in quality of life for me. I have also tried
alternative keyboards, like the Kinesis and the Ergodox, but switching to
Dvorak seems to have had the largest impact.

> Learning a new layout is one of the most frustrating experiences that I’ve
> had so far.

Learning anything is frustrating. Learning Dvorak, for me, was less
frustrating than learning QWERTY was in the first place.

~~~
kingnothing
What's your take on the Kinesis Advantage vs Ergodox EZ? I'm currently
debating between the two.

~~~
matt_m
Maybe you've already ruled it out, but it might also be worth considering the
Kinesis Freestyle line too. I've been using one for many years now after
trying it at work and have been pretty happy with it. Since the layout isn't
too different it's also easy to switch back and forth with regular keyboards.
They have new bluetooth/mechanical versions now too.

I use it tented up in the middle at about 30 degrees with an accessory. The
setup isn't very portable though.

------
thatswrong0
> Don't learn Dvorak

For me, this list resonates (I use Colemak), but I would maybe call it "Things
to consider before learning another keyboard layout".

It's almost never a problem in my life. Someone using my computer? Switch the
keyboard back to Qwerty for them. Me using someone else's? I can still do okay
with Qwerty.. but I'm never using someone else's computer for longer than 10
minutes.

It _was_ significantly easier to learn to touch type a whole new keyboard
layout than it was to un-do my terrible Qwerty habits I picked up from shit-
talking people while playing Age of Empires 2 as a kid (I tried and failed for
a while to touch type Qwerty).

For the record, I never plan on going back. I'm a big fan of Colemak.

~~~
jimmaswell
Must be a YMMV because I learned touch typing just fine after knowing qwerty
in an inefficient self taught way. I took a class on it for half a high school
year and it paid off very well.

~~~
howard941
My experiences duplicate yours w/r/t learning QWERTY. Self taught touch typing
the wrong way followed by a class during high school for the right way.
Alternate layouts don't work for me since I can't take them with me to new
keyboard. I learned that layouts matter back when some idiot swapped Caps lock
with the Control key putting both where they are now, in the wrong place.

Split keyboards are another story entirely, comfortable, compatible with
QWERTY touch typing, and the outward down tilt and separation solved my RSI
issues. Definitely YMMV.

------
castis
> The promise is that it increases your typing speed and reduces the strain on
> your fingers.

> The jury is still out on whether Dvorak improves typing speed.

> I cannot judge if Dvorak helps with RSI issues as I never had them from
> typing

why was this article post even written?

------
marssaxman
I have been using Dvorak all my life - I never learned to touch-type with
QWERTY - and for the most part I'd agree with this author's conclusions. While
my typing speed is higher than average, it's not so much higher that I can
confidently credit the use of Dvorak, and in any case I have never found that
typing speed has any significant effect on programming productivity.

Contrary to this author's experience, however, I very rarely need to do any
serious typing on anyone else's computer, so the fact that I become an
absurdly clumsy two-finger typist in front of any machine but my own is
nothing more than an occasional source of amusement for my coworkers; nor do I
especially mind their reluctance to jump in on my machine and type for me. I
can imagine how this would be more of an issue if you worked in a pair-
programming shop, but I never have. In any case, this problem has been
trivially solved for decades now, on every OS - you just enable a little
built-in menu bar widget which selects the keyboard layout, and you can flip
back and forth in less than a second.

~~~
bjoli
I type faster than most people, getting 120wpm for sustained periods of time.
I did so before switching to Dvorak and I still do (although not with qwerty).
For me it was as simple as training to avoid tensing my fingers and feeling
strokes of keys rather than individual key presses.

This makes me think that neither Dvorak nor Colemak are the best layouts for
me, but rather something that optimises for di- or trigraphs. This will be
pretty language dependant, even moreso than Dvorak/colemak, and as someone who
regularly write in three languages it is probably just easier to stick to
something with a more general design.

The capewell-evolved layout does so for English, and it can really be worth
checking out.

------
jmhain
I switched to Dvorak years ago and it's one of the best decisions I've ever
made. It has downsides (awkwardness when typing on others' machines,
difficulty typing with one hand while on the phone), but the lack of pain in
my hands/wrists is worth it many times over.

~~~
dmarlow
I had pain using non-split/ergo QWERTY keyboard layouts and going ergo solved
it for me. Sounds easier than switching to Dvorak.

~~~
jedberg
Same. I've use a Mac for 18 years but I've also use a Microsoft Egro keyboard
for almost as long.

------
patsall
I switched to Dvorak about 15 years ago. I agree with others here: I switched
from being a Qwerty typist with poor form, to a "correct" Dvorak typist. In
the end I'm a pretty speedy typist (~130 wpm), but I can still Qwerty well
enough that it isn't painful.

However, I think the speed-up can mostly be attributed to forcing me to have a
clean slate and learn to type correctly, rather than any intrinsic advantage
of Dvorak. On Qwerty I typed the style I'd evolved since elementary school,
and on Dvorak I touch-type like I'm meant to.

~~~
peatmoss
There’s something too this, though I also think dvorak has some real RSI
related benefits.

Case in point, my handwork is a mess of barely legible chicken scratches in
English and whatever other latin character using language I might dabble in.

By contrast I took Russian in college (i.e. later in life than gradeschool
English) and learned cursive script. My handwriting in Russian won't win any
calligraphy awards, but it's pretty good.

------
man-and-laptop
On the subject of using other people's computers: How do people who use a
heavily customised environment -- like Emacs with modifications (like caps-
lock key for CONTROL) -- cope with this?

~~~
jandrese
This is exactly the reason I don't have a heavily personalized environment
anymore. Copying it around to every machine was more hassle than it was worth.
This is also why I get so mad when the defaults are bad, especially when
they're changed to be bad.

A good example is how ls now adds fake quote characters if your file listing
has spaces in it. As someone who mastered the Tab key ages ago those quotes
are useless visual noise and I find myself typing them occasionally because I
forgot. You can set an environment variable to disable them, but I have to to
look it up each time and you have to do it on every new machine.

Edit: the magic environment variable is:

    
    
      QUOTING_STYLE=literal

~~~
vlthr
If you're mostly on Linux/Mac I can strongly recommend using a dotfiles
repository containing all of your config files and a script that you can run
to create symlinks to all of these files in the correct places.

With small tweaks like a non-symlinked file that contains only machine local
variables (I call mine .bashrc.local and source it from the main bashrc), you
can evem make the configs vary across machines on the subtler things.

This works wonders for me getting custom configs everywhere, with the
exception of windows machines that are always a huge headache to work with.

~~~
jandrese
This kind of scheme goes to hell once you're bouncing between networks
unfortunately. Especially when you're on completely disconnected machines half
of the time.

------
Yen
I use dvorak as my daily driver. I'm still able to use qwerty, and while my
typing speed is not as fast, it's still adequately usable.

However, an extended typing session in qwerty just feels...weird. I feel
vaguely unbalanced, and I'm more likely to get off by one key left or right
(while touch-typing). It also tends to put me in four-finger typing mode,
rather than eight-finger.

Can any users of Colemak / other layouts who have also used Dvorak comment on
whether the Dvorak->Colemak migration is worth it?

~~~
comboy
I also retained ability to type on qwerty even though I've been using dvorak
exclusively for the last 10+ years (I need to write a few commands on qwerty a
few times a year).

I think that's actually the first time I hear about somebody who "forgot" how
to type on qwerty after switching to dvorak/colemak. I wonder how long has he
been using qwerty before switching.

~~~
dudzik
I've been able to touch typing in QWERTY for around a year before making the
switch to Dvorak. I haven't been using QWERTY for some time after the switch
so that might affect it as well. It might be interesting to see if I could get
back into QWERTY and still retain Dvorak as I used it for a longer period.

------
peatmoss
I mean, sorry that the author spent time on something that he wishes he
hadn’t, but his anecdata conflicts with my anecdata and that of my spouse and
various friends.

Learning dvorak many years ago was something I’m still glad I did. I didn’t
know touch typing beforehand, and found learning dvorak relatively easy.

My spouse did know qwerty touch typing beforehand, and she also found learning
dvorak relatively easy.

Some years ago I did some rough estimates of saved finger stretching based on
a corpus of my own emails. I’ll never know whether I'd have typed those emails
faster or slower with qwerty, but I’m absolutely convinced I did save finger
strain.

------
weehobbes
Another +1 for Colemak. I tried both Dvorak and Colemak about 8 years ago. I
hated Dvorak, mostly because it ruins ctrl+z/x/c/v shortcuts. Also, right
pinky hurt from frequently typing 'l'. Colemak is awesome. Much easier to
learn, works well with most keyboard shortcuts, and is has worked well for me
ergonomically.

------
robotmay
I've been learning the
[Workman]([https://workmanlayout.org/](https://workmanlayout.org/)) layout in
the past few months. I'm using a split Ergodox board, and Dvorak didn't make
much sense to me for what I wanted to do. Colemak was _almost_ there but had
some really awkward movements that I wasn't enjoying. After a bit of time I
now find Workman extremely comfortable, and very logical, particularly for
writing prose. It has taken me longer to get the hang of coding on it, but by
using a secondary layer on the Ergodox I've got some very comfortable bindings
set up for my programming environment. If anyone's curious, here's my current
layout (still very much WIP): [https://configure.ergodox-
ez.com/layouts/DZaM/latest/0](https://configure.ergodox-
ez.com/layouts/DZaM/latest/0)

EDIT: Oh, and it hasn't slowed down my QWERTY typing at all, I still keep a
standard board on my desk as well. The reason I took up the split board with
Workman was because of RSI, and swapping between the two is a good way to vary
the movement of my hands.

------
chipuni
I learned to type Dvorak about ten years ago.

Dvorak, by itself, won't make you a faster typist. It will help only if you're
actively training for speed-typing.

Dvorak will cause problems with any keyboard shortcuts that depend on the
positions of the keys. Control-Z, Control-X, Control-C, Control-V are now in
different parts of the keyboard. So is the hjkl of Vi.

But Dvorak is more comfortable to type. If you don't want to move your fingers
from the home row as much, it is better.

And unlike Carpalx
([http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/](http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/)), Dvorak is
available on most systems without extra software.

Learn it if you like. I strongly disagree with Frederik Dudzik: If you don't
care for it after you learn it, you CAN go back. And it take less time to re-
train yourself back to Qwerty.

------
beefman
I learned QWERTY when I was 14, in 1991. I switched to Dvorak in 2001. I could
type about 100 WPM on QWERTY but suffered extinction of this skill even before
I got up to speed on Dvorak (I can still hunt and peck reasonably well). After
about a year I reached the same raw speed on Dvorak, but with fewer errors and
less hand strain.

I don't know if I'd unilaterally recommend learning Dvorak, but it is a
superior (and very near optimal) keyboard layout and I'm quite happy with my
decision to switch, even though I didn't believe skill extinction was possible
when I made the decision. (Practicing both concurrently may prevent QWERTY
extinction, but I found it impossible to resist the urge to fall back on
QWERTY without quitting it cold.)

------
qwerty456127
I believe the whole statement saying that QWERTY layout is designed to slow
typing down is probably a myth as I find the letters that stand right near
each other in a word being neighbors on the keyboard just so often.

~~~
wycy
If there is some truth to the idea that QWERTY was designed to slow you by
separating commonly paired keys, it might actually be advantageous in the
world of touchscreen keyboards. Separating frequently paired keys would
presumably make autocorrect better at guessing what you meant to say than if
common letters were clustered in the same area of the keyboard.

~~~
dnautics
Dvorak is absolutely horrible on touchscreens.

~~~
marssaxman
Keyboards are absolutely horrible on touchscreens, regardless of layout. I
love my new BlackBerry Keyone.

------
ppeetteerr
I have three keyboards on my phone: QWERTY, AZERTY and one for my native
language. I can switch between the three rather easily but that's mostly
because I still look at the keyboard when typing on the screen.

On a physical keyboard, I just don't see the point of learning a new latin
layout (e.g. Canadian English layout, UK layout).

It's easier to use a US keyboard instead of a Canadian English keyboard
because the few times you need an accent are heavily outweighed by having
symbols in the wrong position to what your next computer might have.

------
mfonda
This article boils down to "Dvorak was difficult for me to learn therefore
nobody should learn it."

I've been using Dvorak for about seven years now, and personally I love it.

For the longest time, I typed on QWERTY using a glorified hunt-and-peck
method. I could type decently fast, but speed aside, I knew that touch typing
was something I needed to learn. Figure if I was going to learn, I might as
well learn on Dvorak.

Extremely happy with that decision. Typing just feels natural now, and I can
type fast enough. There's many people that type faster than I do -- both
QWERTY and Dvorak -- but I don't think I've ever thought to myself "I really
wish I could type faster."

The biggest challenge for me in learning Dvorak was after I had more or less
"learned" the layout, there was a period where typing was still involved
consciously thinking "move this finger to this key". Most of my mental effort
at that point was spent thinking about where to move my fingers, which made it
more difficult to think about the actual code I was writing. Moved past that
phase after a few weeks and never looked back. Overall, it took about month to
learn, and it wasn't too difficult.

The author also mentions challenges when using someone else's computer. For me
that's been a mild annoyance at worst--not enough of an annoyance to be worth
complaining about. And on Mac OS at least, it takes all of a few seconds to
switch keyboard layouts.

------
yboris
QWERTY is just bad design -- it's not something you'd ever design today. You'd
never put ";" right under your finger, and relegate "e" from the home row.

I switched to Dvorak in graduate school and it was super-worth it. It took
less than 2 months to get comfortable (and I can still switch between the two
layouts in 15-ish seconds of conscious attention).

Here's a nice way to think of it -- will you be alive for longer than 5 more
years? If so, you should switch to Dvorak.

~~~
anotherevan
QWERTY is not badly designed. It's design goals were to minimise the
likelihood of the keys of manual typewriters from jamming when typing in
English, thus maximising the typist's productivity.

At worst, you can say QWERTY is antiquated. The conditions it was designed for
no longer exist.

------
beefheart
I learned to type blindly informally on QWERTY and I use only my index fingers
and my pinkies. I actually move my arms a little when typing. I'm reasonably
fast, certainly fast enough for anything I do.

I have never had any problem with wrist stain and just from trying out "proper
touch typing", I feel like my way of typing is far less straining and "more
natural". That could just be confirmation bias of course.

SURVEY:

Who else has learned typing similarly to me and what have been your
experiences?

~~~
isodude
> I have never had any problem with wrist stain and just from trying out
> "proper touch typing", I feel like my way of typing is far less straining
> and "more natural". That could just be confirmation bias of course.

It will never be a problem most likely until your situation changes. That
change could be anything from a new keyboard to a new sport your trying out
that increases the stress on wrists and arms.

I am not an expert in any way, but as long as your elbows rest on the desk and
your wrists are straight, you should be fine.

> Who else has learned typing similarly to me and what have been your
> experiences?

I learned informally but started to use most fingers. Later on I learned two
different dvorak layouts, switched back to qwerty for a couple of years,
switched back to dvorak again. I feel that I have some weird ways to type
sometimes, but I only had wrist problems once and that was when I switched
keyboards and skipped the wrist rest (quite high keyboard). I've always found
that the strain is in the elbows and how well you rest your wrists. Not
depending on touch typing/layout etc.

------
coldnose
I make this same argument all the time. I switched to Dvorak 15 years ago, and
though it did vastly improve my typing speed by teaching me to touch-type, I
don't know whether it's intrinsically faster. Mostly it's just an impediment
now: I can't type on other people's QWERTY keyboards, and other people can't
type on mine. For any computer I sit in front of, I have to hunt-and-peck
QWERTY keys unless I can switch the layout.

------
lmilcin
I have been using Dvorak for the past 20 years. The only real issues are login
screens where you are surprised by the layout (windows will use dvorak when
locked but not when logging in) and companies that don't allow installing my
own custom driver (needed for when I type in Polish). 20 years ago I would be
scoffed at if I left server console in dvorak but I haven't used any server
physically (not remotely) in over a decade.

------
cordite
I'll give my own experience here.

I switched to Dvorak by using a model M with movable key caps back when I was
a teenager. It really was one of the most frustrating experiences with muscle
memory I have ever had--in fact it felt painful to receive continual mismatch
of intent and results. I think it took me 2 weeks to write sentences without
conscious pain, and about 3 months to get to a moderate speed.

Even so, I still type dvorak for more than a decade now. My writing speed
isn't really comparably faster with dvorak, but I do believe that it does
reduce wrist strain. Ortholinear layouts further reduce some strain for me.

When it comes to QWERTY, I still use it plenty on touch screens, and as a
touch typist, I can still do it if I'm on a cheap logitech rubber dome
keyboard. Though after a short while I feel like muscles are strained in my
hands on physical keyboards.

It is near impossible for me to type QWERTY on a mechanical keyboard or a
macbook keyboard. The touch feel I have is so attuned to that layout (despite
not having the legends on the key caps in dvorak) that I am continually making
mistakes or reverting back to dvorak mid sentence.

I don't regret my decision at all, though my coworkers are intimidated by it.

------
danpalmer
Switched to Dvorak last Christmas, over the break from work.

The bad: \- I’m still not as accurate with non-Python punctuation as I was on
QWERTY. \- no support on iOS \- people need to change my layout if typing on
my machine

The good: \- noticeably more comfortable typing \- can be faster for some
things \- I have been forced to touch type as I don’t use any Dvorak printed
keyboards, this has contributed to me typing faster and is generally useful.
\- I don’t really use other people’s computers \- my thumb QWERTY typing on my
phone appears to be totally different muscle memory so this hasn’t restricted
my learning at all \- macOS has a quick switcher for keyboard layouts which
makes it very easy to change for other to use my computer.

Overall it has been very positive, and I’d recommend to anyone who is likely
to type for their whole career (for prevention of RSI), and who can take a
month of being unproductive at typing. The learning process was frustrating,
but with 2 weeks off work over Christmas - practicing a little each day - I
didn’t feel like it slowed down my programming once I was back at work. It
slowed down my slack/email, but it was manageable and only temporary.

~~~
chillacy
You definitely don't want dvorak on iOS, qwerty was designed to maximize
distance between keystrokes to prevent typewriter jams, that can only help on
iOS where the keyboard is small and thumb taps are big and imprecise.

~~~
danpalmer
I can see your point, although Dvorak was also designed to maximise the back
and forth between 2 hands, for typing speed, and that could actually have a
positive impact for precision when the whole word is being taken into account.
Most typing with thumbs on small screens relies heavily on autocorrect in that
way, so I can imagine that Dvorak might provide more information for that to
work, even if each character might be less precise by itself.

------
CtrlAltT5wpm
Forgive any ignorance on my part; I'm not a dev, just a lurker with a
moderately above average familiarity with tech.

I mostly type with 6 - 8 fingers, with my attention split 50/50 between the
keyboard and the screen. I can type around 50 wpm, more or less, though I
probably average around 30. While I'll concede that typing faster would be a
boon, how much faster can one realistically type before they start to outrun
their inner voice? When I'm typing up emails or narrative reports for work, I
regularly stop and consider what I'm going to write, with frequent revisions.
Typing papers is just as start/stop, if not worse. I can think at a certain
speed, but having my hands go much faster than that seems like wasted effort.
What am I missing? Is it simply a RSI (repetitive strain injury; had to look
it up) thing? I can see the obvious benefit if you do a lot of transcribing,
but beyond that...I'm not entirely sure. Might someone help me out?

~~~
BenjiWiebe
When I'm troubleshooting/explaining something over an IM chat, I'd estimate my
inner voice is doing at least 200wpm. The faster I can type, then, the better.
(Since I highly doubt I'll ever make it to 200wpm.)

------
masa331
_I did not foresee that my QWERTY muscle memory would be replaced by Dvorak,
making it frustrating to use other people’s computers — I had to search for
keys and type with two fingers at an annoyingly slow pace. This made me aware
of how often you use other people’s computers.

This also happens when someone else needs to use your computer, which involves
a mandatory explanation of why you are using a different layout and switching
it for every time the typist changes (which is frequent when collaborating on
one computer)._

This is the reason why i don't over-configure my vim or anything else. If you
do so you can get lost on not your own machines easily. Also coming to
someone's computer which has some weird configs(vim remapping of esc and caps
lock anyone?) is extremely annoying.

~~~
supernovae
you can thank these new shit bars, I mean touch bars on the macbook pro for
the caps lock remapping.. __raising a fist at apple __

------
frob
I've always had a dream of writing an OS plugin that would determine if you're
typing QWERTY of Dvorak from your pattern of keystrokes and then switch over
to the appropriate layout. V2 would go back and fix your garbled text.

------
vlthr
I switched to dvorak for RSI reasons about two years ago and have now switched
back to qwerty. If dvorak (plus split programmable keyboards, vim, etc) made
any difference to my symptoms, it was at least not enough to be noticeable
(though it is hard to say since the symptoms vary in intensity).

One of the things I'm considering as a possible explanation for my issues is
that all of the changes I've made have made my usage patterns smaller and more
repetitive, and that going back to more inefficient methods slow me down and
force me to move my arms in bigger movements might actually be less painful.

------
mh8h
I use a keyboard that is hardwired to Dvorak. I have another normal QWERTY
keyboard on my desk as well, and when somebody comes to my desk, they can use
the other keyboard. Works perfectly well for pair programming too.

------
finnthehuman
>Learning a new layout is one of the most frustrating experiences that I’ve
had so far. Muscle memory built up from touch typing on a QWERTY Layout for
years meant that during the learning phase, I would constantly press the wrong
key. My brain didn’t like that feeling — this is what I imagine a stroke
victim must feel when relearning a basic skill.

Learning a new skill as an adult can be be like this. If you would have given
up after hitting the wall on something as minor as learning Dvorak, you're
going to miss out on a lot of life.

------
andrewaylett
I switched to Dvorak, but other people tended to object when I changed the
keyboard layout on shared machines, so I had to learn to type QWERTY again
too. So long as what I'm typing doesn't start 'ma' or 'am' then I can usually
figure things out.

It's definitely been worth it for me -- my trigger was RSI-like symptoms,
which have been in remission since the switch. I would have been 23 when I
switched and I'm 37 now, so I've been typing on Dvorak for the vast majority
of my professional life.

~~~
westoque
> I switched to Dvorak, but other people tended to object when I changed the
> keyboard layout on shared machines

This is why I invested in an external keyboard which is hardware set to
dvorak. So whatever machine I go to, I just plug-in, and be on my way.

Some suggestions:

\- TypeMatrix 2020

\- TypeMatrix 2030

\- HHKB

I personally use an Ergodox.

------
Apaec
Kinda the same reason why I only used an Ergodox EZ for a couple days. I
realized that collaboration is hard and also wasted too much time configuring
it. Restrictions do free sometimes.

------
i_made_a_booboo
Colemak is where it's at because cut/copy/paste and the punctuation is all
still in the same place as QWERTY but on Dvorak that's all fucked which makes
it an impractical nightmare.

I still use qwerty on my keyboard but I started learning both to try them out.
I accidentally left my phone's keyboard layout in colemak and didn't realize
until months later when a friend tried to use it. It's kinda funny how your
brain just adjusts.

------
dnautics
Left my work Mac on in the office... Got in the next morning and saw my
prankster coworker at my desk. I call out to him, what the hell are you doing.
Sheepishly he flashes a toothy grin and says, "M____, why do you use Dvorak?"

Without skipping a beat, I reply, "precisely for this reason".

Security by obscurity. ten seconds of my life: totally worth the three months
of effort I put into learning it decades ago.

~~~
chillacy
Saved me from being teapot email'd at the start of my career, totally worth
all the pain.

------
michelledepeil
I learned to type on Dvorak for fun during my CS degree, and realized very
soon that it would be perfect for 2 thumb phone typing, as it focusses on
left-right-left-right action, versus the left-left-right-right of Qwerty.

But on a work computer, where other people should be allowed and able to do
some minor operations on your machine, it's too much of a hassle.

I will add that the initial learning period was infuriating but more than
anything a pretty fun challenge.

~~~
toastal
I actually really love it on my phone. I've considered switching to Colemak a
few times in the last 10 years, but the typing experience of Dvorak on my
phone let's me type really fast and I want my layouts to be consistent on my
devices.

------
noobiemcfoob
Using Dvorak can be a conversation starter. You'll get lots of nerd cred from
the right people but plenty more weird looks from everyone else. I used it in
high school, but I eventually got tired of dealing with the hassle of setting
it up on each new installation or the headache of using others' machines (I
could still type QWERTY well enough but would make mistakes as muscle memory
crept in)

------
ericsilver
I'd learned Dvorak using a Kinesis keyboard. I use both Dvorak with the
Kinesis and QWERTY with a standard keyboard. The slight difference in profile
is enough that I've never had interference, and use both comfortably. That
said, it hasn't been an enormous speed increase; I'm roughly equally as quick
with either.

------
kzahel
Dvorak is worth it just for the look on people's faces when they try to use a
computer you've been using.

~~~
redbeard0x0a
Hard to "hack" your machine by typing things when you step away for a minute.
Also makes it harder to capture your passwords by looking over your
shoulder...

------
jasonincanada
I've been using Dvorak for about 20 years and am still happy with it, so I
have no plans to switch to another layout or back to qwerty. My qwerty speed
and accuracy have suffered a bit but I still use it on my phone to send SMSs,
so it's still fresh in my mind and has never degraded significantly.

------
kevwil
I learned to touch-type in high school, so switching to Dvorak 17 years ago
only took about a month. I was on the verge of RSI problems when I switched,
no RSI issues since. Dvorak saved my career. So "don't learn dvorak" falls on
deaf ears over here. Good luck with your crusade, though. :)

------
gboone
Must be just me but when I tried to learn Dvorak I got literally nauseated.
Never felt so sick from doing something so simple/hard. He mentions stroke
victims' struggle but for me it was like having a vision impairment like
upside down vision. Otherwise I would have probably kept going.

------
pohl
I can switch back & forth between Dvorak and QWERTY. Maybe it was the years of
piano practice that gave me the ability to learn the former without losing the
latter.

Anyway, I’m happy with the result. I’d do it again in a heartbeat. It was a
big win for my RSI.

------
lowlevel
I adapted to the dvorak layout without too much trouble... but I often have to
type on other people's keyboards which was quite difficult to manage
cognitively... so I had to revert. Good luck though, hope you find some
relief.

~~~
verdverm
Me too, it became a show stopper when teaching and later at the job. You won't
always only use your own computer. Maintaining two muscle memories is much
harder. Anyways, typing speed is not the limiting factor in most cases. And
you can always make what you have to type fewer key Stokes.

------
Insanity
If you want to do it hust for typing speed, it seems pointless. I typed fast
on azerty and now I am typing fast on qwerty. (around 145-155wpm).

But when does typing speed actually matter?

~~~
logfromblammo
Real-time speech-to-text transcription. Closed captioning for live events, and
such.

That's the only thing I can think of.

~~~
Insanity
That's true, I was thinking too much in my box of software development it
seems :)

------
Tempest1981
We found NitroType a great way to teach kids to type. Maybe adults too?

[https://www.nitrotype.com](https://www.nitrotype.com)

------
commandlinefan
I switched to emacs after two decades of vi. It drove me crazy, and I had to
switch back - maybe it’s true what they say about old dogs and new tricks.

------
accnumnplus1
What's the effect of using Dvorak or Colemak on things like vim? The hjkl for
example get topsy-turvied.

~~~
symmitchry
Dvorak and Vim works just fine. I did it, without doing any Vim rebinding of
keys. It's screwy for a while but ... So is learning Dvorak. And some of the
Vim stuff works better in Dvorak, so it's net basically no issue.

------
taborj
But Dvorak is one of my favorite composers...

Wait, that's Dvořák.

