
The Heart of a Swimmer vs. the Heart of a Runner - philonoist
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/03/well/move/heart-health-swimming-running-exercise.html
======
pcprincipal
Long time swimmer and runner here - the biggest difference between the two IMO
is the focus on lung capacity for swimming.

A common swimming training set most competitive swimmers will be familiar with
are "lung busters". You do a 200y free that's 50y breathing every 3 strokes,
50 every 5, 50 every 7, 25 every 9 and then a 25y butterfly without breathing.
I had a coach who would have us do 6 of these on 2:45 (meaning about 15-30s of
rest for strong distance swimmers). Everyone would be audibly gasping for air
by the end of these.

In races, how often you breathe is a critical part of race strategy. In a
50y/m free you generally shouldn't breathe at all; in a 500+ race, there are
big debates about whether to breathe every 2 or 3 strokes. Additionally, how
much to kick is a key part of strategy since kicking's contribution to speed
is not great compared to how much oxygen it depletes.

I really don't think running compares in terms of how stressful the sport is
on the lungs. That said, running 400m sprints with small rest intervals is
extremely hard on every part of the body and I found the muscle stress from
running far greater than from swimming.

~~~
sharkweek
This is super fascinating, thanks for sharing.

I did an olympic triathlon a few years back, and while I consider myself a
decent runner and a strong cyclist, the swimming absolutely kicked my ass to
the point that I'm not sure I'll ever do another triathlon to avoid it. Seems
to take another level of strength to be great at it.

~~~
alexfoo
Technique buys you so much more speed and/or efficiency in swimming compared
to cycling or running. Those that lack good technique will thrash themselves
into a tired mess in order to keep up with the others on the swim.

Some swim coaching, and subsequent drills in your usual training, would soon
get you on your way to enjoying the swim part of a triathlon and stop it being
horrendous.

The cheap and less effective method is simply watching/studying this video
every time before you go to the pool:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HhNlysFDs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HhNlysFDs)
and then watching it afterwards and thinking about your own stroke.

~~~
mykowebhn
One thing I noticed in the video you included: when the shot is following him
from behind I noticed that Van Hazel's head is completely stationary, no
lateral or up-down movement. Amazing!

~~~
irrational
Also notice how far his shoulders rotate. I see lots of people mainly moving
their arms instead of rotating their entire torsos.

~~~
taurath
Thats been a big thing for me to learn - if you want to be able to breath
without taking long pauses, your whole torso needs to move, and it creates a
very natural motion to pop your head left or right to breathe a pocket of air

~~~
gideon_b
Another bonus to rolling -- it is initiated with your core, so it uses large
powerful muscles. Once the roll is initiated you can feed your kick and your
pull with that momentum. You end up using more powerful muscles to feed your
stroke, so you can pull harder without wearing out your arms.

------
jniedrauer
I'd like too see more study on the long term damage of endurance sports on the
heart. I'm hoping to begin running marathons at the end of this year and
ultramarathons next year. But reaching that level of fitness requires multi-
hour runs, sometimes as many as twice a week. When training for
mountaineering, I sometimes climb 5000+ feet in a day. Days like that tend to
elevate my resting heart rate for up to a week afterwords. This probably means
I'm sustaining heart damage, at least temporarily.

There are notable case of ultra runners dying, and autopsy shows long term
heart damage. Some combination of duration and intensity seems to be
dangerous, but the risk factors are not well understood yet.

~~~
scottious
> There are notable case of ultra runners dying, and autopsy shows long term
> heart damage

I wonder how much of this is pre-existing heart conditions that went
undiagnosed versus running _causing_ heart damage.

> Days like that tend to elevate my resting heart rate for up to a week
> afterwords

This is surprising to me... I've run almost 5000 miles and 6 marathons so far
and this has not been my experience. Maybe it's due to over training? Have you
asked a doctor about it?

~~~
jniedrauer
> This is surprising to me... I've run almost 5000 miles and 6 marathons so
> far and this has not been my experience.

Do you track your resting heart rate on the days after running a marathon?
It's been pretty consistent to me. If I sustain near max exertion for multiple
hours, it takes at least a few days to feel normal again, and resting heart
rate seems to be a very good indicator of the overall stress of the exertion.
Obviously my RHR is dropping over time. These are temporary variations.

~~~
snowwrestler
I've been reading this thread and I'm curious if you've had any cardiac
checkups done.

I had a friend who was very healthy and fit but, like you, experienced
elevated heart rate (and some loss of energy) for a few days after hard
exercise days. Turns out, he had a partial blockage in a cardiac blood vessel.
It was not blocked enough to be noticeable under normal workloads. But under
hard work loads, part of his heart did not get enough oxygen and experienced
damage. Eventually he experienced a heart attack, which is when it was caught
and stented. Every other vessel was clear... it was just one of those flukes.

Who knows if you have the same issue, but I would suggest it's worth getting
checked out.

~~~
jniedrauer
Yeah I'm feeling a little unsure myself after reading these replies... I had a
checkup very recently and got the all clear... The most recent incident I was
referring to (I hiked up 5000 feet in a couple hours and ran the descent)
caused severe DOMS, and I think the elevated RHR may have been due to muscle
damage in my legs. I was probably not physically prepared for that large of a
running descent. But I'll keep an eye on it.

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maaaats
In the article it's stipulated it's because of gravity. But it's also
mentioned in passing that swimmers hold their breath. I wonder, is there any
effect in being able to hold your breath for long when it comes to cardio? As
in, I can hold my breath for 4:58, does that offer me any advantage?

Or what about training with a bigger lack of oxygen, as in waiting longer
between strokes to breathe or holding your breath while running, does it do
any good?

~~~
Fezzik
I found that sentence odd... Swimmers do not really hold their breaths often.
Some training involves breath holding, and sprinters will hold their breath,
but the majority of training and all distance swimming involves relatively
normal breathing - the body exhausts itself quickly when there is no oxygen
coming in to the system. I do masters swimming after starting to swim
recreationally in college, and the first thing you learn to conserve energy is
to breath normally and _not_ hold your breath.

~~~
kayhi
Swimmers hold their breath constantly from turns to different patterns
depending on the stroke. Also in freestyle it's common to breath in through
your mouth and exhale through your nose which isn't like running which is all
mouth breathing.

~~~
koboll
Breath control drills (i.e. "breathe once this lap" or "breathe every fourth
stroke") are also standard for competitive swimmers.

This study looked at top competitive athletes, who might be pursuing a
different strategy than masters swimmers.

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usrusr
Hardly a word on the type of runners? Typical track and field running
disciplines are a very different load than marathon or longer and the training
cannot be compared at all. The same question would apply to swimming, if there
were truly established long distance disciplines outside of triathlon (but
even there, the swimming part takes only a fraction of the time of the
others).

~~~
totalthrowaway
The study was 16 swimmers and 16 runners.

From the paper itself:

"For runners, sprint/power athletes were defined as those who competed in
100–400 m races and high jump, while distance athletes competed in races ≥800
m. Short distance swimmers comprised those competing in 50–200 m races while
middle-distance/distance athletes competed in 400–1500 m races. Eleven
swimmers swam freestyle, 3 swam breaststroke and 2 swam backstroke."

The phrase "there were interesting if small differences" makes me suspect
nothing statistically significant was found. Digging into the paper, I found
the sentence I was expecting:

"Further research is required to delineate whether these observations are a
product of a superior exercise stimulus, or a necessary adaptation to promote
filling during upright exercise."

Any small sample of undergraduates always gives the same scientific result:
more grant money required.

~~~
usrusr
But "≥800m" could be anything from "some 800 and even a 1.5k" (sub 5 minute
efforts) to "mostly marathon and some ultramarathon" (multiple hours).
Swimming tops out at 1.5k, which would be a sub twenty minute effort for world
class athletes. The longer ones are clearly anaerobic efforts, but still a
long shot from endurance disciplines. Except for those six individuals who
might run utramarathons or 800 meters, we don't know.

The study is nicely apples/apples if those six are well within the track
running range (800, 1.5k, 5k, even 10k would be close enough in duration to
1.5k swimming which is the longest subdiscipline there), but if there are road
endurance runners in the group, they will likely skew everything from a
comparison between running and swimming to a badly made comparison between
athletes aiming at multi-hours efforts and athletes aiming at minutes or even
seconds.

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WMCRUN
I was a national level 5k runner in Canada

I often have doctors tell me that my resting heart rate was too low for the
machine to read. The lowest I’ve clocked is 34 bpm.

I assume there’s a safe limit to how low a heart rate can go, which makes me
wonder what the limit to cardiovascular performance in running is.

~~~
ausbah
I've heard of some professional cyclists years ago who turned their bodies
into such efficient biking machines from training + drugs that when they when
to sleep, there was a change of them dying in their sleep because their heart
rate was so slow. They'd have to get up in the middle of the night and bike
just to stay alive. Only anecdotal, but worth considering.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT8GZlBBv5k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT8GZlBBv5k)

~~~
trymas
I understand it's anecdata, but I still do not completely get how you can die
from slow heart rate?

Why heart shouldn't get a signal to beat more frequently if body starts to
lack oxygen during sleep? Is it just because the blood is so thick and moving
so slow it will clog and may produce a sudden heart attack? Thus you need to
"manually" keep up the heart rate?

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nanis
> But even now, he says, “an important message is that all of the athletes
> showed better function than a normal person off the street, which supports
> the message that exercise is good for hearts.”

Or people with good hearts become athletes and their hearts improve with
exercise.

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throw0101a
If anyone is interested in cardio activities, jumping rope is another one that
gives high numbers:

* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_equivalent#Activitie...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_equivalent#Activities)

------
mont
It's certainly an interesting finding, but I wonder if there are any long term
implications of it? Especially as swimming should be easier on the knees than
running is.

~~~
js2
Like all repetitive activities, runners are prone to overuse injuries and the
most common is to the knee. However, runners are still much better off than
non-runners. Also, knee pain is almost always due to a biomechanical or
strength issue. If you’re smart about your running (most runners, self
included, are idiots about their running), you need not get injured and you’re
way better off than sitting on the couch.

That said, I don’t know what happens to the knees of swimmers, weightlifters,
cyclists, etc, but inactivity is the worst thing you can do.

Sorry, I just hate this very common misconception that runners are out there
destroying their knees.

From [https://www.runnersworld.com/health-
injuries/a20850408/5-thi...](https://www.runnersworld.com/health-
injuries/a20850408/5-things-runners-should-know-about-knees/)

 _Runners don 't get arthritis in their knees more often than nonrunners.

Those are the facts. Period. If anything, long-term studies have found that
runners have less incidence of knee osteoarthritis. One study[1] that followed
runners and nonrunners for 18 years found that, while 20% of the runners
developed arthritis during that time, 32% of the nonrunners did. A large study
that looked at runners and walkers[2] found that regular runners had roughly
half the rate of arthritis as regular walkers. In that second study, the
runners with the highest regular mileage had the lowest rate of arthritis._

1\.
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2556152/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2556152/)

2\.
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23377837](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23377837)

~~~
janlaureys
Right now I weigh a little more than 100kg and am currently trying to better
my life to live healthier and be more active.

I can run pretty well, currently about 10km with a heart rate monitor to not
exceed my limits. I've tried swimming as well but for some reason I get knee
pain during swimming, it's probably just bad technique but it feels so stupid
to have to get out of the water because of knee pain.

At my max I weighed 115-120kg and I'm pretty sad that I didn't start doing all
this stuff earlier.

~~~
52-6F-62
How tall are you?

Also, the article _briefly_ mentioned rowing. I didn't enjoy it as much when I
was competing when younger, but it's a brilliant exercise if you have access
to even (or can afford) an ergometer (indoor rowing machine).

As long as you study form and adhere to that principally before exerting
yourself, it's a great aerobic exercise that also helps build and maintain
muscle mass (arms, back, and legs mainly). It's easier on the joints as
well—again, and I must stress, as long as you maintain proper form. I see so
many "cross-fitters" yanking and janking their arms and back and shooting
their butts around it makes me cringe knowing what kind of hell it's going to
render to their bodies. With proper form, it's one of the best compound
exercises. I wish I had access to an erg these days, but I'm trying to keep my
own costs down by using the limited gym in my building.

Also if you're in a town with a rowing club, they often host "learn to row"
sessions that will guide you through a lot of it—and get you out on the water
as well, if you're not averse.

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HankB99
Define runner. I skimmed the article and didn't see it. Maybe I missed it.
Some runners train for long distances - marathons or longer. At the opposite
end of the spectrum are the sprinters who train for a short burst of maximum
speed. And there are competitions for many distances between these extremes.
It wouldn't surprise me if difference between these extremes were as great or
greater as those between runners and swimmers.

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mathattack
The sample size is very small. Makes me nervous about any conclusions.

~~~
DonaldPShimoda
They address that a bit, though, and they point out that this is just a cross-
sectional study. I think it's more like a starting place for this research
(land vs. water exercise) instead of anything meant to have hard conclusions
drawn from it.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if other "news" agencies report on the NYT
report with headlines like "Runners Have Much Stronger Hearts Than Swimmers,
Study Says".

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ausjke
We're really a furnace burning oxygen inside which deteriorate cells faster
when you're doing sports competitively, sports are great for health, what
about competitive sports? is it really that good? is there any data showing
that they live longer and healthier because of those intense exercise?

I exercise regularly but always had this doubt about "over-exercise" that
could do more harm than good.

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person_of_color
Does anaerobic activity (lifting) improve the condition of the heart?

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hellofunk
Would love to see a comparison with bike exercise.

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uvu
Does gravity really affect our health?

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dwighttk
now do the knees...

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djohnston
can i get a tldr? stuck behind paywall

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RPLong
right-click, open in incognito window...

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novaRom
I always browse in Private Mode, but NYtimes has started to block reading in
that mode.

