

The No-Brainer Issue of the Year: Let High-Skill Immigrants Stay - mhb
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/12/the-no-brainer-issue-of-the-year-let-high-skill-immigrants-stay/250219/#

======
geebee
This issue comes up a lot on hacker news. While I do stongly support a
stronger emphasis on skilles immigrants, and I do believe STEM grads are
valuable, I believe this article (and this genre of article in general)
overlook a critical point.

I've mentioned a RAND study many times in my comments on hn. This study took a
very objective look at the pay, career prospects, completion time, attrition
rate, and so forth of STEM grad degrees vs the professions (MD, JD, DDS, MBA,
etc). The conclusion reached was that STEM grad degrees are unappealing to
young americans because they are no longer competitive with other career paths
available to the "best and brightest".

So, does it make sense to specifically staple green cards to evey stem diploma
when the most objective research suggests the shortage may be market driven?

I don't have a definitive answer. I think it's a complex question wothy of
discussion, and not at all the no-brainer the atlantic article claims it it.

~~~
zeteo
But of course the completion times and attrition rates are high. Anyone who's
worked in the science academia is well aware of the fact that way too many
American K-12 graduates, no matter how much they may like a STEM career, are
woefully unprepared to deal with the math involved in it. The attrition rates
and general unpleasantness of these majors result directly from this factor.
Until K-12 math gets fixed for good, you need either some stopgap measures to
fill those jobs or the inanity to graduate engineers who can't do basic math
(and then drive over the bridges they design).

~~~
geebee
Unfortunately, I don't have data on failure rates in PhD programs broken down
by immigrant vs non-immigrant. This data would be clouded by the fact that
many "dropouts" are counted as successful MS students, not dropouts (further
complicated by the fact that in some cases, this is absolutely true, the
student was happier getting an MS and did make this choice!). It could also be
clouded by the fact that US citizens can drop out of their STEM programs
without jeopoardizing their right to reside in the US, whereas international
students may face deportation if they fail or drop out and don't secure some
other visa.

I do think that this last part is used - unintentionally - to manipulate
international students, and is part of why the appeal of these programs has
declined for people who don't need the program to gain US residency.

I would much rather see this problem resolved by empowering the immigrant to
choose what field and degree path (or absence of degree path) he or she wishes
to pursue than limiting their freedom. But what I can't do is pretend it isn't
a factor in how abusive PhD programs can be toward their students. My first
order of business in designing a better system would be to strip universities
or employers of any control over an individuals immigration/residency status.

~~~
geebee
BTW, not sure if you're still following this thread, but here's some info on
attrition:

www.cgsnet.org/portals/0/pdf/N_pr_PhDC_bookII.pdf

Looks like there is a statistically relevant difference in completion rates -
international students tend to complete at 67% vs 54% for US citizens - and
that this gap is driven by math and physical science, while humanities only
has a 2% gap. So while I wouldn't say there is a vast gap, there is a relevant
gap.

While 67% is much preferable 54%, keep in mind that at elite law, med, and
business schools, completion rates tend to be in the high 90s.

------
sp332
That doesn't seem like a no-brainer. Wouldn't it be harder for skilled
Americans to find jobs here if they're competing with immigrants? It's not
like there aren't high-skilled jobs in other countries, where those immigrants
whom we educate could get jobs.

The subtitle says _Our policy toward the world's best and brightest is
currently: "Welcome! Enjoy this expensive education. Now go home!" Does that
make any sense?_ But I think it makes even less sense to say to native-born
Americans, "Enjoy this expensive education. Now go to Europe to get a job,
because we decided to hire an Indian instead".

~~~
yummyfajitas
_It's not like there aren't high-skilled jobs in other countries, where those
immigrants whom we educate could get jobs._

So it's your desire to consign the Indian would-be immigrant to a life of
poverty (i.e., poorer than the bottom 5% of the US [1]) just to make sure your
wage stays above $150k/year?

But as long as you are happy with me shipping jobs to India, I guess it's all
good.

[1] [http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/the-haves-
and-t...](http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/the-haves-and-the-have-
nots/)

~~~
macspoofing
>So it's your desire to consign the Indian would-be immigrant to a life of
poverty just to make sure your wage stays above $150k/year

The reality is that the government will make policies that favour citizens
over foreigners. So yes, it may be someone's desire to cosign an Indian would-
be immigrant to a life of poverty just to keep their wage stable. We're
already doing that by not taking in unlimited immigrants from, say, war-torn
Africa.

>But as long as you are happy with me shipping jobs to India, I guess it's all
good.

Skilled immigration has nothing to do with offshoring.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_Skilled immigration has nothing to do with offshoring._

Sure it does. Both are methods of tapping into the labor pool overseas.

 _We're already doing that by not taking in unlimited immigrants from, say,
war-torn Africa._

Very true. Our unwillingness to take on more refugees has resulted in
thousands of people being tortured, raped and murdered. Are you advocating
this policy?

~~~
prodigal_erik
Most African cultures have not completed the demographic transition. Until
that happens somehow, those cultures will exceed the carrying capacity of any
environment, and war over inadequate resources. With unlimited immigration,
the billion in Africa would continue moving until America became equally
inhospitable.

If anything, our population is already too high, verging on disposable "life
is cheap" levels. We haven't learned to make a civilization that values
individuals and treats them decently, except when they are scarce enough that
resources are going underused (making it clear to everyone that we benefit
from their presence).

------
rdtsc
It's a cost issue usually disguised as a "skilled immigrant" issue. Large
companies want technical workers (the new miners and factory workers) who are
willing to accept a much lower wage than native workers. So when they talk
about "skilled" they usually mean "skilled and willing to work for $40k/year
instead of $80k/year".

Just look at how many H1B positions are advertised and how much legal but
shady stuff goes on. Put ad in local paper among classifieds for "free dirt
available", if any resumes are received from US citizens they are discarded
(note they have to be "considered" but not accepted), and so on.

If it was just about "skills" there would be no need for this shit to go on.

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU&feature=plcp&...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU&feature=plcp&context=C301d875UDOEgsToPDskKn5dk5-5tIALOarSLcJ1JL)

~~~
scarface548
you cannot hire a h1b for 40k/year, minimum prevailing wage requirement
prevents you from doing so.

~~~
untog
You can hire an H1B for 45k/year. I know because I was that H1B at one point.
My previous employer gave me quick pay rises once I proved that I was capable,
but not everyone is so lucky.

~~~
scarface548
Was the prevailing wage where/when you were employed less than 45k?. If it was
then you were not undercutting the american worker,if not your employer was
doing something illegal. From personal experience hiring a H1B is anything but
cheap, lawyer fees and all.

~~~
untog
The prevailing wage was $45k.

This was for a programming role in New York City- I do not know _anyone_ that
gets paid $45k. I'm unsure how they calculate prevailing wages, but I'd
suggest that the formula could do with some tweaking.

~~~
scarface548
i doubt prevailing wage in new york city is $45k for a programming job.
Prevailing wage determination has nothing to with H1B even if that was the
case.

~~~
untog
Well, I can tell you that it was, because I have the paperwork at home which
says exactly that. While the wage determination isn't part of the H1B process
it still has a key role to play in it.

------
anamax
If the advocates of high-skill immigration are so smart, why do they keep
tying high-skill immigration to massive low-skill immigration and amnesty, two
issues which are big losers?

~~~
jbooth
You're the only one bringing up Mexicans. So I'm not sure who you're
complaining about.

They're associated, rather than "linked" because, well, they're both
immigration driven by a labor shortage.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Anamax didn't bring up Mexicans, and it's not his hangup. Here is video of
Obama talking about how great a startup visa is, and then tying the startup
visa to comprehensive immigration reform.

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/innovations/post/obamas-...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/innovations/post/obamas-
immigration-dodge/2011/07/07/gIQAyYXV2H_blog.html)

~~~
jbooth
I didn't play the video but I seriously doubt that Obama used the word
"amnesty".

"Low-skill immigration and amnesty" is quite clearly talking about latino
immigrants. Not accusing him of being racist or anything but that's who he's
talking about.

Comprehensive immigration reform is needed in some form and a startup visa is
one aspect of immigration reform. So it's really not outlandish to include it
when talking about the subject. I'll spare you a websters-mirriam definition
of comprehensive, immigration and reform.

Sorry, the original comment just sounded like off-topic whining to me. Lots of
putting words in people's mouths, very little contribution.

EDIT: And the conservative downvote brigade has arrived. I'll just call it a
day here.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_So it's really not outlandish to include it when talking about the subject._

If you want the startup visa to pass, there is a very good reason to do it by
itself: the startup visa is likely to pass, whereas comprehensive immigration
reform is not.

 _Lots of putting words in people's mouths, very little contribution._

It contributes even less to deny his claims, which are basically correct.
Obama's blueprint for immigration reform does include amnesty (you need to
scroll to page 3 to find it).

[http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/imm...](http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/immigration_blueprint.pdf)

~~~
jbooth
The "path to citizenship" outlined there has very little in common with what
comes to mind when you say "amnesty". Read the language there, it's all about
burdens on illegal immigrants and prerequisites, after which they can get in
the back of the line to apply for citizenship. "Amnesty" implies something
more similar to what Reagan did.

Again, nobody was talking about this at all until anamax brought it up. And
Obama proposing a startup visa by itself absolutely will not pass. You know
why? Because it would involve Obama proposing it. See the House Republicans
refusing to pass a tax cut this week.

~~~
anamax
> Read the language there, it's all about burdens on illegal immigrants and
> prerequisites, after which they can get in the back of the line to apply for
> citizenship.

"back of the line"? They're starting in front of everyone who applied to
immigrate, didn't get accepted, and waited until they did.

Are you really arguing that it isn't amnesty because there are some
conditions?

~~~
jbooth
Anything that takes over a decade to successfully execute isn't quite
"amnesty" by my definition. "Amnesty" is like "Hey, you're good to go!".

Amnesty International isn't campaigning for prisoners to be released "about 10
years from now".

~~~
anamax
There's no "decade to successfully execute" - they get legal resident status
immediately after "touching base" (at most).

But, you know this.

Yes, they get to wait to be eligible for citizenship, just like every other
legal immigrant. Are you seriously arguing that not letting them jump that
line is punishment?

------
devs1010
No system is going to be perfect, how can "high-skill" immigrants be evaluated
with absolute certainty that they are, in-fact, highly skilled. I am sick and
tired of employers in the U.S. viewing people with degrees from universities
in third-world countries as if they are equal to a degree from the U.S (and
thus possibly passing over US workers who may not have completed a degree
program). I realize that some immigrants come here for college and that would
validate their skills-sets, such as "if they graduate from the U.S. university
with high grades, then they can stay and work" but it seems to me a lot of
these supposedly highly skilled, supposedly "better than the average American"
tech workers are people who were educated exclusively in another country and
its not comparing apples to apples, in my opinion.

~~~
untog
_I am sick and tired of employers in the U.S. viewing people with degrees from
universities in third-world countries as if they are equal to a degree from
the U.S_

I, on the other hand, am sick and tired of the immigration authorities
questioning my degree from the UK and refusing to confirm that it is
equivalent to a US degree. Hardly third-world.

But in any case, your problem is solved very easily- by firing people. At a
previous job we hired a guy with a Masters from a college in New Jersey (I
forget which, sadly). He was useless. We fired him. Education can get you in
the door, but it can't keep you in the room.

The problem with this is that hiring immigrants is more expensive and time-
consuming because of the process you have to go through. Although it sounds
backwards, if it was easier to hire immigrants it would be easier to fire them
when they aren't as good as they say they are.

~~~
devs1010
I think that the UK is considered on-par with the US, I wasn't inferring
anywhere that the UK is third-world.

~~~
untog
Oh, I know. I was making a more general point that degree equivalency is just
a giant mess.

------
tomjen3
Yeah that is a no-brainer: you have to have no brain to be against it and at
the same time anybody with a brain knows it is never going to pass.

Why do you guys keep posting these articles?

------
ThaddeusQuay2
1) Importing skilled immigrants is like exporting jobs because most of these
people go back to their own countries, and those who stay take the place of a
US citizen who could have had the job, if our education system was better and
our government's policies were otherwise aligned with the welfare of its
people.

2) All routine immigration should be immediately stopped, and indefinitely
kept that way. Exceptions should be made only for the few, true geniuses who
could definitely benefit the US in a big way.

<http://youtube.com/watch?v=9PpaoZE8oXk> NumbersUSA - Immigration by the
Numbers - Part 2 of 2

<http://youtube.com/watch?v=XyTmClBU7nA> NumbersUSA - Immigration by the
Numbers - Part 1 of 2

<http://NumbersUSA.com>

~~~
zeteo
> immigrants [...] who stay take the place of a US citizen who could have had
> the job, if our education system was better and our government's policies
> were otherwise aligned with the welfare of its people. All routine
> immigration should be immediately stopped, and indefinitely kept that way

Yes, and to be consistent also ban imports. Each suitcase produced abroad
takes the place of one that could have been produced in the US, if the
manufacturing industry was better and governmental policies were aligned with
the interests of blue collar workers.

I mean, North Korea is so successful, there's no reason to not emulate their
economic policies!

