
India's Indira canteen: The best meal you can buy for 13 cents - DanBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-41983359
======
pm90
For those pointing out that this is "Govt. distortion of markets", please see
Agricultural subsidies offered in the US and Europe, which "distort" markets a
lot more.

Personally, I think this is an excellent idea. I really liked the story of the
lady who said that her morning had been freed because she did not have to cook
breakfast anymore. And for many of those using this place, it would similarly
free up their time.

Another important point: unlike the gross fast food that you see in the US,
this is actually very nutritious. Lentils are a great source of protein and
other essential amino acids. The canteens also provide free drinking water. I
can see this more as a public health program than a "wasteful subsidy": save
millions of man-hours wasted by poor health by providing a decent amount of
healthy food to everyone.

As for the idea of indirect assistance via tokens or food stamps: I would
wager this is better since the Government can use economies of scale to
provide food at low prices. Not to mention: they have quality control over
exactly what is offered to the public.

India grows more than enough food to feed all its citizens. I'm glad to see
that schemes to provide nutritious meals at subsidized prices to people are
finally coming through.

~~~
saagarjha
> this is actually very nutritious

Depends on how it's made. Oil/butter is often added because it's cheap and
provides "fullness" without being nutritionally satisfying. With food this
cheap, you'll need to take a close look at what's actually going in the food.

~~~
kamaal
Neither oil nor butter is cheap in India.

This isn't exactly your 80 rupees/dosa Darshini.

Of course the food quality won't be all that great. Thats also with children's
mid day meal program in Government schools.

The base rule for things like this is something is better than going hungry.

~~~
saagarjha
> something is better than going hungry

Of course, but marketing it as "healthy" may not be the most accurate way to
portray it.

------
signal11
I believe these are subsidized (the article does mention economists
complaining that these are a drain on the exchequer).

A more subtle point is that these subsidized "canteens" are in urban India,
which is already much better off than rural India, where people even now
regularly die of hunger[1]. I'm not saying urban poverty isn't a real issue,
but the scale of poverty in rural India is much greater.

It's worth noting that you can get free food in many places in India (and in
some cities in Europe and the US), via the Sikh langar[2] which is funded by
charity and volunteers.

[1] for instance: [http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/oct/22/man-
starv...](http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/oct/22/man-starves-to-
death-in-jharkhand-government-says-family-was-not-poor-1679986.html) [2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langar_(Sikhism)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langar_\(Sikhism\))

~~~
vowelless
> It's worth noting that you can get free food in many places in India (and in
> some cities in Europe and the US), via the Sikh langar[2] which is funded by
> charity and volunteers.

Incidentedly, Indira Gandhi (After whom the Indira canteen is named) was
assassinated by Sikhs. Does the naming of the canteen have anything to do with
the assassination ?

~~~
zebnyc
Not a Sikh but I don't believe these are related. As per wikipedia "Langar
(Punjabi: ਲੰਗਰ) (kitchen) is the term used in Sikhism for the community
kitchen in a Gurdwara where a free meal is served to all the visitors, without
distinction of religion, caste, gender, economic status or ethnicity."
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langar_(Sikhism)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langar_\(Sikhism\))

The assasination of Indira Gandhi was related a separatist movement who wanted
Punjab to secede from the rest of India (while Indira Gandhi was Prime
Minister)

------
rs1234
To all of you arguing about how this is a market distortion; about economists
who argue about "drain on the exchequer"; and to those logicians arguing about
fallacious fallacies - did y'all have breakfast this morning? Yes? Good. Well,
those people eating in those canteens might not have been able to have
breakfast, but for those subsidized canteens. We should not put economics and
"the market" on a pedestal. If something is the right thing to do, it is the
right thing to do. As someone pointed out, Britain provided subsidized
restaurants. US provides farm subsidies. "Market" is good if it does good for
the people. Otherwise there is no point in being wedded to an ideology.

~~~
cgmg
What makes you think that US farm subsidies are a good idea?

~~~
metaphor
The parent never asserted that US farm subsidies are a good idea.

~~~
csin
As an non-American I would like to ask...

For people who are in the "patriotic" group. Your country needs to maintain
the infrastructure to self-sustain it's people in a world war.

What would be a more effective strategy over food subsidies?

Edit: Sorry I meant Farm subsidies, not food stamps.

~~~
fencepost
> Your country needs to maintain the infrastructure to self-sustain it's
> people in a world war.

Food wise, logistics wise or technology wise? Because while the US could
manage the first two assuming no major internal disruptions, we've pretty much
abandoned the third in favor of cheap imports and profits.

~~~
metaphor
> ...[the US] pretty much abandoned [technology] in favor of cheap imports and
> profits.

From a consumer perspective, sure. From a critical defense perspective, not
entirely[1].

[1]
[https://www.dmea.osd.mil/otherdocs/AccreditedSuppliers.pdf](https://www.dmea.osd.mil/otherdocs/AccreditedSuppliers.pdf)

~~~
fencepost
Sure, you can get chips within some limitations - in fact I believe some chip
fabs have been moving back onshore. Can you get screens? I remember coverage
maybe 20 years ago about Zenith closing the last TV manufacturing in the USA,
and while that was in the days of CRTs I can't imagine that a lot of new panel
manufacturers are here.

~~~
metaphor
Interesting point. I'm not really seeing the bottleneck with respect to
defense sustainment though.

In terms of critical defense: L-3, Honeywell, Rockwell Collins, and Elbit
(Israel) are a few major players off the top of my head that cater to domestic
weapon system displays.

In terms of consumer displays: Japan, Korea, and Taiwan are allies. Humoring a
doomsday isolation scenario with consideration towards America's disposable
first-world couch potato culture, there's probably enough TVs/monitors in
existing circulation throughout the country to sustain even the most
improbably protracted conflict, let alone used surplus being auctioned off by
the pallet for pennies on the dollar. Might even resuscitate a dead repair
trade and create a few meaningful jobs too. Of course, this all assumes the
government doesn't acknowledge a supply deficiency and fails to seed the
capability need.

Don't get me wrong. I agree that the status quo of domestic technology
production isn't exactly a self-lubricating wheel and leaves much to be
desired...but it's not exactly dead in the water either.

------
bllguo
People snidely - and probably correctly - point out this is done for votes.
That just seems overly cynical. Incentive alignment is a good thing - it's the
whole basis of capitalism. I don't get why people feel the need to point it
out in this manner.

~~~
jabretti
>Incentive alignment is a good thing - it's the whole basis of capitalism.

The government taking your money and giving it to other people for votes isn't
capitalism, it's corruption.

~~~
throwthis153
I don't think you have any idea about the problems in 3rd world countries.
There are many people below the poverty line and these canteens are a god
send.

You must be against state sponsored healthcare too ?. Isn't that just taking
taxes from healthy people and using it to treat ill people. In your words -
corruption.

------
narenkeshav
This is already functional in the state of TamilNadu for more than 3 years. It
is called as "Amma's canteen". Any meal is 1 or 2 rupees. It is clean, healthy
& definitely not fast food.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QwO9RyihO8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QwO9RyihO8)

~~~
ThrustVectoring
I noticed in that video that everyone ate with their hands. Is the lack of
eating utensils a culture thing, a poverty thing, or both?

~~~
timcederman
[http://hopscotchtheglobe.com/why-indians-eat-with-their-
hand...](http://hopscotchtheglobe.com/why-indians-eat-with-their-hands/)

~~~
ThrustVectoring
Thanks!

~~~
narenkeshav
I prefer eating with hands more than utensils. I prefer that as a respect for
the food as it is the major reason for my health.

------
CamTin
Similar to the (sadly, fading) Bar Mleczny in Poland:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_mleczny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_mleczny)

Simple food (Polish food obviously, not Indian), government-subsidized,
targeted at students, the elderly, the poor, but not means-tested or anything
so technically anyone can get a plate, including foreigners, for very cheap.
Typically very good food, but horrible customer service (old women yelling at
you to make up your mind while you order, etc).

~~~
rbanffy
> horrible customer service

Things like that can easily become the identity of the place.

~~~
CamTin
It's definitely part of the charm. Also motivates you to work on your Polish
so you aren't tongue-tied.

~~~
rbanffy
I'll check with my Polish neighbors. Seems horrendously hard.

------
nocoder
I have seen these in bangalore, in fact there is one very close to my office.
One of the things that concerns me with such projects is that how they effect
other eateries in the area. The one near my office that opened recently is on
a street with about 5 other eateries. Having a eatery which is subsidized by
government distorts this local market and adversely affects the other
businesses in the area since they also cater to similar demographic with
largely similar products. So while on its own this might be a good initiative,
the economic impact of such initiatives might be more harmful to the local
area economy. It s like creating more homeless so you can built shelter homes.
A better way to do the same thing might be just to issue food vouchers which
the people can use to by the food of their choice from any of the other
eateries. It provides affordable food to those who cannot afford and also
supports the smaller businesses.

~~~
AdmiralAsshat
That would really depend on what the target demographic was of those
neighboring eateries, wouldn't it?

I'll use an American analogy to illustrate, and so I'm sorry in advance if it
doesn't translate well.

In the Washington D.C. area (where I have several friends working), the
restaurants are overwhelmingly high-end. A meal at a standard Panera bread is
one of the more affordable options, and costs you somewhere between $12-15.
Assuming said person works minimum wage, they're making $12.50/hr. In the
longterm, that's really not sustainable, as they're spending an hour of their
work-time just to be able to eat during the workday.

Suppose a Subway opens next door, and, additionally, suppose their $5 footlong
still existed (it doesn't, but stay with me). The people who previously went
to Panera start going to Subway because it's more affordable. Yeah, the Panera
suffers, but many of the people that ate there couldn't really afford to eat
there in the first place, and would have eventually stopped when their
dwindling finances made it impossible.

Now on the other hand, if Subway was our base price and a government-
subsidized eatery opens up with complete meals for $2, then yes, I can see how
that might be a problem.

~~~
shostack
Without judging people's situations, I have to wonder at why people earning
minimum wage would be eating out at Panera vs bringing lunch from home for
much less money.

~~~
SwellJoe
There's a growing mobile homeless or partially homeless (living in storage
facilities or an RV without services) population in many of the more expensive
cities; they live in the city for work, because that's where the jobs are, but
can't actually afford to live there. Obviously, this isn't everyone who eats
out who can't really afford it, but it's definitely some. If you don't have a
fridge, you don't have a stove, and you have no way to keep or prepare fresh
foods, you have to eat out more often. I've known lots of folks in this
situation (I live in an RV and travel a lot and run into all sorts of people).
They often do keep bread and peanut butter in their car or RV or whatever, but
they have pretty limited options. It's not healthy or sustainable to eat that
way. So, they end up eating out a lot.

Our cities are becoming wholly inhospitable to poor people, and food is no
exception. And, someone making $12.50/hour probably can't really afford rent
in a city like DC, either.

~~~
shostack
Thank you for educating me on that aspect of the situation.

Is there typically electricity in these situations? I ask because per my post
below, I wonder how common it is to bootstrap up to a mini-fridge + pressure
cooker or rice cooker or something like that. Seems like a few weeks of PB&J +
cup ramen could provide for a significant upgrade in nutrition from purchasing
those tools.

I'm probably leaving out some important aspect of this, and unfortunately some
of this might simply be around education of where to purchase these tools and
what to do with them to eat smarter, but I can't help but think there are ways
to improve the situation with the cards they currently have in their hand.

If I found myself suddenly living out of a car or storage unit (provided it
had electricity), I'd probably do whatever I could to save for a mini-fridge
and rice cooker (eventually upgrading to a pressure cooker), and go from
there. Rice and beans purchased in bulk are affordable and solid staples, and
easy to turn into more nutritious meals by adding other ingredients.

~~~
SwellJoe
It's wildly variable what resources someone in that kind of situation might
have.

There was a guy living in the storage unit next to the one I have in Austin
(for my stuff from when I moved out of a house and back into an RV). The folks
who ran the storage facility let him run an extension cord to the nearest
power; several people actually were living in that facility, despite it being
illegal. So, in his case he did have electricity, and I believe he had a mini-
fridge. We talked several times and he seemed to have a pretty reasonable
setup. He even had a space heater for when it got cold. I never saw the inside
of his house (he'd built a wall and second regular door behind the rolling
garage style door), but he seemed to be reasonably comfortable and had regular
work really close by (since he only had a bike, proximity was important). The
last time I was there, he'd moved out, and the person working didn't know
where he'd gone; I'm hoping he was doing well and got an apartment rather than
ran into harder times.

Similarly, I've seen people use one of these to get electricity inside a
storage unit when they didn't have particularly understanding landlords:
[http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/04/31/80/63/0004318063152_...](http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/04/31/80/63/0004318063152_500X500.jpg)

But, people in cars or vans probably don't have power. Some RVers have solar
panels, and also RV fridges often also run on propane (though they aren't
terribly efficient in the old RVs...I go through about $15/week running mine
on propane). Propane fridges are very expensive and very fidgety and prone to
breakage over time, however, so it's not uncommon to see the propane/electric
dual-mode fridge replaced with an electric-only model in the cheapest old RVs.
So, that limits the use of the fridge to times when it's plugged in.

I know someone who lives in a bus that she converted to an RV herself, but she
didn't put in a fridge (yet), so while she has a stove, if she's not parked
near a grocery, she is very limited in what she can cook. Some things keep
well without refrigeration: onions, potatoes, winter squash, etc. She has
potted plants for tomatoes and herbs, but she's much more intentional about
her situation. She moved out of an apartment and into the bus by choice, not
by necessity, and mostly enjoys the off-the-grid lifestyle. She made one of
these for when she's in the desert: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot-in-
pot_refrigerator](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot-in-pot_refrigerator) but
those only work in very dry climates and aren't cold enough for many foods.
Obviously wouldn't work in most places...and if you're in a city, you have to
be self-contained and very discreet about where you're living. Can't really
spread out and put out pots and stuff when parked on a street.

~~~
emj
What is close to work by in the US anyway? Looking at the commute distance of
people in the US it seems that at least 50% live close enough to use a
bicycle. I've seen countless articles about poor people in the US who can't
afford a car and had to walk 2 hours every morning, that is most probably 30
minutes on a shitty bicycle even less on a decent one.

    
    
            American Commute 
            Distance (One Way)    Percent
            1-5 Miles             29 %
            6-10 Miles            22 %
            11-15 Miles           17 %
            16-20 Miles           10 %
            21+ Miles             23 %
            (source:  US Department of Transportation, Bureau of Transportation Statistics, Omnibus Household Survey. )

------
JumpCrisscross
> _Economists say the canteens are a burden on the exchequer but they are a
> hit with politicians in a country where hundreds of millions of people live
> on less than a dollar a day_

The difference between these projects and soup kitchens is these are chiefly
political projects. The state borrows to pay for patronage and largesse. No
doubt, the vendors were not selected through an open auction.

~~~
geodel
The deprivation is rather severe in India. You would notice most of the people
are doing full day of work and eat there. In US typical person who eat at a
soup kitchen would quite likely be non-working/homeless.

I have had my well-off friends in India where 4 person family dinner will cost
more than monthly salary of their car driver. And it is simultaneously true
that driver's salary is quite less and a decent restaurant meal is very
expensive.

~~~
rohit2412
Monthly salary of a driver is atleast 10k INR ~ 154$,

Your friends are eating at a place that costs 2500 INR per head? That's not a
decent restaurant meal, that's a lavish restaurant.

I would say 200 INR gets you a decent restaurant meal.

~~~
1024core
I'll counter your anecdata with mine.

I usually take Uber in India, and often ask the driver about his work, how
much he makes, etc. This is for a North-Indian Tier-2 city.

The answer usually is that he makes INR 6000/month.

Now, I have eaten in middling restaurants where a meal for 2 came to INR 2500.
In fact, I've been to cafes where a "meal" of tea, snacks, etc. alone came to
over INR 700/pp. You would be hard pressed to get a decent meal in a clean,
hygenic and modern restaurant for INR 200 anywhere in North India.

~~~
piyushpr134
Uber guy earning INR6000/month! Man you have been conned hard. An Ola/Uber guy
earn something like INR35-50K per month after all fuel and car expenses. No
one would work for 6K/month even in tier 3 cities for Ola/Uber. In fact there
were days when drivers were earning (due to incentives) about 6K (revenue) per
day in cities like Delhi and Bangalore

~~~
1024core
Several of the Uber guys I spoke with were actually drivers of some rich
businessmen; they were told to Uber during the times they were not needed. A
couple of them were "for hire" drivers, being paid a flat INR 200/day to
operate the car for 10 hours/day.

I don't know why they'd be conning me, and so many of them too, unless there's
a "driver mafia" out to fool the public about .... what their driver makes??
Doesn't pass Occam's test.

~~~
kamaal
>>A couple of them were "for hire" drivers

Most of them are that way. Most cops are into this business, its getting
impossible to invest black cash in a meaningful way. There are now capital
controls in every investment. Want to buy gold, land, mutual funds, whatever?
Get ready to submit you PAN and Aadhar. So they can't spend money that way. At
very same time, they can't sit on cash, because inflation.

They generally buy the vehicle in a relative's name, with black cash(Huge
second hand market for this). And do this cab business. Most drivers are poor
ex-farm workers. So they take whatever they get.

The last time I heard from a auto rickshaw driver, more or less every cop in
Bangalore has something like this going.

------
danepowell
For the Americans reading this: "drain on the exchequer" == "drain on the
treasury"

------
snambi
India has 1000s of temples who serve food for free to anyone without asking
questions. Why only talk about a govt project clearly aimed at getting votes
of poor?

~~~
codezero
Since I don't know the area – can you think of a reason this type of canteen
is so popular if there's widely available, similar alternative? Sounds like
there's something more to this – are the canteens simply cheaper because of
subsidy? More efficient so less time waiting? Better location for the working
population?

~~~
snambi
First, marketing by the congress party, they will talk about it relentlessly
on TV/Newspaper/media etc.

Since it is run by congress party (govt) they can use the best real estate in
town, which provides the highest visibility to the commuters.

------
vaseem
Annapurna Bhojanalya - UP | Aam Admi Canteen - Delhi | Amma Canteen -
Tamilnadu | Annapurna Canteen - Andhra Pradesh | Annapurna Rasoi - Rajasthan |

These are scraps to hide the big loot at the top.

------
Nano2rad
Food is clean and fresh but no flavor. It is not like food you get in standard
restaurants. In short it is not best meal. Maybe they got info about BBC
visit. Not seen idly in Indira canteen.

------
stretchwithme
Food is cheap when labor costs are low all along the supply chain.

So this is kind of giving us a preview of what meals will cost when food
production and meal prep are automated.

~~~
victornomad
Biggest chunk of the food prize increases a lot in the last mile
(supermarkets, restaurants, etc). In my region, where you used to see 50-60 of
people doing fruit picking in one big field, now you see 2 people + 1 tractor
+ robotic arm. Market prices are barely the same, I dont think labor cost is
what really increases the final food price.

------
venturedfleet
Even though the concept is great It is primarily done to appeal to masses
below or just above the poverty line. This is a political agenda by present
ruling government (Congress) in the state(Karnataka). It is named after late
Ms Indira Gandhi who was president of Congress. Sorry to say India runs behind
these votebank politics. Idea is that People will remember this as Congress
providing food, even though it is being paid by tax payers money, So those
corrupt power hungry monsters can continue to stay in power. The chief
Minister who initiated Indira Canteen Karnataka spent 100K $ on his and his
family for Tea and Snacks alone in the last 4 years.
([https://www.newskarnataka.com/index.php/bangalore/snack-
bill...](https://www.newskarnataka.com/index.php/bangalore/snack-bill-at-cms-
residences-sums-up-to-half-crore)) Now you cant help but question the motive.
And It is not the first time, These initiatives have been done in the past in
India Eg: in another state called Tamil Nadu. It was called Amma canteen.

~~~
praneshp
As someone that detests Congress, I don't really see why naming it after
Indira Gandhi is that bad. Esp considering she is unlikely to stand in an
election again... I also don't see why not being the first state to do it is
bad; someone else here linked 5 other states that run similar programs.

I was happy that the tradition of naming everything after Rajiv Gandhi is
stopping.

------
navinsylvester
Why is this being questioned on vote bank politics?. Isn't any good scheme has
to be welcomed.

I am from the state Tamilnadu where this model first got introduced -
[http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-
india-36659670](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-36659670)

~~~
praneshp
> Why is this being questioned on vote bank politics

IMO, because the other side cannot just stand up and say "well done, that is a
good move". It's the new normal.

------
tryingagainbro
should extend this to a lot of places:

 _" In fact, Guatemala has the highest rate of malnutrition in the Western
Hemisphere: 50 percent of the population is stunted and, in rural Mayan
villages, that figure gets as high as 80 percent."_ * We compared a group of
native 9-year-old Mayans and a group of 9-year-old Mayans raised in the United
States. The difference was dramatic. The American Mayan children who have
access to better food are, on average, six inches taller than those raised in
Guatemala.* [http://abcnews.go.com/Health/malnutrition-severe-stunting-
gu...](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/malnutrition-severe-stunting-guatemalan-
children/story?id=12381731)

~~~
snambi
oh god... americans are obese.. please don't compare.

~~~
tryingagainbro
Height and obesity...

------
thetruthseeker1
For people dismissing it as vote bank politics... I want to say policy is more
complicated.

If the govt reduces taxes for people in low income range is that vote bank
politics?

If government provides free education to the poor is that vote bank politics?

Both the above items are aimed at a certain segment.

If you think the answer to above questions is Yes, then in that case every
body has vote bank politics, and discussing whether it’s vote bank politics is
of little use (I am not even sure if it is a bad thing).

I think a better question to ask is whether it is good policy. I don’t see any
argument indicating it is bad policy. Seems like it is helping a certain
section of the society at little cost to the rest.

------
unmole
If any tourists are thinking of trying them out, please don't. The canteens
serve a fixed number of meals a day. You might end up depriving someone of a
subsidized meal.

------
Karupan
As good as this initiative sounds, I don't have high hopes of it succeeding in
the long run. I have seen how many Amma canteens in Chennai have run into
neglect or effectively closed down a mere 3 years after opening. As long as
initiatives like these are politicized (which is unfortunately true in most
countries), they won't last for a long time. The next political party to come
into power will most definitely run it into the ground.

------
michaelbuckbee
I was curious about two points that the article didn't touch on:

1\. What are the per meal costs, aka how much of the meal does the 13c cover?

2\. Is there some benefit/downside to just "free" food instead of the minimal
cost?

~~~
tootie
It's an oft-cited paradox of consumer choice that people don't value things
they didn't pay for. By making them pay a token amount, it gives them skin in
the game. Similar to "suggested donation" at museums that are already full
funded.

------
mulvya
It says, "Each dish costs a mere five rupees, or about 13 cents". Except that,
at present, 1 USD = ~65 INR, so more like 8 cents.

~~~
prameya
I think the article is from bbc; so maybe for pound sterling it is 5 cents?

~~~
sk0g
England uses Pounds, Shillings and Pence.

~~~
svat
Not since 1971.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_Day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_Day)

~~~
koenigdavidmj
You are of course correct, but the currency that is 1/100 of a pound is still
the penny, plural "pence". In this case, 5 cents still doesn't work.

~~~
svat
Yes good point. And in any case, for "five rupees, or about 13 cents" to be
correct, we'd need a cent to be about 5/13 ≈ 0.38 rupees, and that fits
neither USD (1 USD ≈ 65 INR) nor GBP (1 GBP ≈ 86 INR). So original point in
this thread, that the article's conversion is mystifying/wrong, still holds.

