
HP Allegedly Time Bombs Unofficial Ink Cartridges from Working in Its Printers - defenestration
http://hothardware.com/news/hp-allegedly-time-bombs-unofficial-ink-cartridges-from-working-in-its-printers
======
noonespecial
The best way to make a difference against this nastyness realistically
available to us is probably the "one star review".

And when you do, resist writing 10 paragraphs about all the times HP has ever
wronged you or a long story about how much you needed the printout when it
refused to print.

One star, one sentence. "Expires full inks after only x months forcing you to
buy new ones when you don't need them."

I know for certain these short, sweet reviews change the buying behavior of my
non-techie family.

Make a difference. Write a product review today.

~~~
FullMtlAlcoholc
Normally, I loathe one-star amazon and yelp reviews. They are almost always
knee-jerk reactions to some function not working perfectly, or, more often,
the consumer felt disrespected and didn't receive the proper service, even
though the product or food is flawless.

However, there's an exception to everything. Just this week, my printer
crapped out a week after inserting 3rd party ink cartridges. I just thought
that printers have a planned obsolesce period of around 2 years. It's one
thing to make a device so cheap that it's only capable of lasting 2 years.
Intentionally sabotaging your own products just to extract a little more coin
is beyond a slap in the face, it's consumer rape. Sony did something similar
with their about face on installing Linux. Although I don't agree with what
they did, they could at least explain it away as trying to prevent piracy.

I am never, ever, ever buying another product by HP again, never signing up
for any of their cloud services and I will tell clients, friends, colleagues,
and anyone else in shouting distance to do the same. Luckily, the TinyScanner
app (my fave document scanning app, sorry Office Lens) and my phone are more
than enough to replace my scanner/fax/copier/printer and I hope I never have
to buy one again. For some reason though, faxes are still being used in high
numbers in Japan.

~~~
noja
Most one-star reviews I see are for anything _but_ the product: "delivery was
late", "box was damaged", "came with wrong power cord".

~~~
pjc50
Amazon et al should really make it possible for people to disaggregate their
opinions on this kind of think. Lots of delivery companies are terrible but
there's no ability to leave feedback ("driver threw parcel over fence") etc.

~~~
lamontcg
Tech support is also uniformly awful, and someone always winds up getting
shipped a lemon and complains about bad tech support. Unless there's some kind
of fundamental design flaw that led to the product failing, or truly common
issue that is likely to affect me, I don't actually care. Someone always tries
to install a brand new router and finds it won't even power on, then they call
tech support and have a horrible time talking to someone in India who can't go
off-script.

------
froh42
Such behaviour is the reason I threw out a perfectly working HP OfficeJet one
day and will never buy a single HP printer in my life.

In the OfficeJet in question I only used genuine cartridges, but every few
year it would stop receiving black and white faxes because (the nearly full)
color cartidge was passing its expiry date - forcing me to throw away the full
color cartridge and buying a new one.

~~~
flyinghamster
Join the club. At my office we had an OfficeJet, and it "expired" a printhead.
It won't even allow you to SCAN unless the printhead is replaced.

No more HP for me. Never again.

~~~
pauldotknopf
They also print advertising without your knowledge.

[http://www.dailytech.com/HPs+Web+Connected+Printers+May+Prin...](http://www.dailytech.com/HPs+Web+Connected+Printers+May+Print+Out+Ads+on+the+Users+Dime/article18753.htm)

~~~
userbinator
That article was 6 years ago and I haven't really heard of anything about
printers containing adware since then, so I suppose the amount of negative
reaction that generated was enough for them to abandon the idea.

------
DavideNL
Slightly offtopic, but, I've been using a HP printer for the past years
(Photosmart D7360) and am also VERY annoyed, one example: whenever one of my
_color_ cartridges is past it's expiry date i can't print in _black and
white_. Even though the black cartridge is brand new. I first have to go buy a
new color cartridge (which i don't use) and then i can print in black again.
The warning message says something like "if you print with an outdated
cartridge it may damage the printer".

seriously, will never buy a HP printer again.

~~~
brassic
Most colour printers never print in just black and white. They always need a
bit of yellow: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2005/10...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2005/10/18/AR2005101801663.html)

~~~
kalleboo
That's laser printers

~~~
cantrevealname
That anti-counterfeiting measure (secret yellow dots encoding a serial number)
was originally on color _copiers_. Then it got extended to color laser
printers.

Do we really know that it hasn't been extended to ink jets as well?

I think the grandparent has a legitimate observation. It would explain why you
need to have working color cartridges to be able to print in black and white.
(It's obvious that paper money is not going to be counterfeited in black and
white, but maybe they decided to hide serial numbers on all printouts, not
just color printouts.)

------
azarias
Can confirm, this happened to our HP 6830 printer on September 13. Extremely
annoyed because we only bought this printer in June, and was working fine with
a replacement ink. I was actually researching legal precedents to this, and
learned that Lexmark has been fighting something like this in court for over a
decade[1].

[1]
[https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160214/16294133605/after...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160214/16294133605/after-
failing-to-use-copyright-trademark-law-to-stop-printer-ink-resellers-lexmark-
finally-scores-victory-with-patent-law.shtml)

~~~
PieterH
Yeah, patent law, recourse of the scoundrels.

------
Animats
There's the Epson Eco-Tank series. Ink is in four bottles at the side of the
machine, good for about 4000-6000 pages. Refill with Epson ink bottles or (a
bit more messily) from bulk ink. The printer costs about $279.

You do have to clean the print heads occasionally. That's the price of long
life print heads.

~~~
m3adow
How is the Linux support for Epson printers? The big thing for HP is their
good support for Linux.

~~~
Nullabillity
"Good" Linux support means being able to just download a PPD and shove it into
CUPS. AFAIK HP is the only one that requires their own crappy GUI on top.

~~~
lvillani
Personally, I never ever had to use hplip's GUI tool, except for configuring
wireless printing. After doing so, I could uninstall it and use bog-standard
CUPS.

------
josefresco
Not sure if it was a time bomb, but HP does have an "auto update" feature that
could _seem_ like a time bomb.

We got nailed by this with our HP 8610. Were using 3rd party cartridges with
much success for months. Last week my wife had a huge (for us) print job and
encountered an annoying bug (prints blank sheets every other print). Updated
the firmware hoping it would fix the problem. Next thing we know, cartridge
error.

Spent 3-4 hours researching how to downgrade firmware with no luck.

No mentioned of new Sept 13 firmware on any HP driver website that I found.

3rd party is shipping us new cartridges for free, but it will be 2 weeks. Had
to buy another printer.

Die in a fire HP.

~~~
83457
Are you printing in color?

~~~
josefresco
Yes.

------
Roboprog
Somebody mentioned Brother printers elsewhere.

I replaced my HP laser with a Brother laser a while back (just printing
"stuff", not photos)

I replaced my black cart on the HP (2600n) with a 3rd party product, and got
away with it. However, when I replaced the color carts (one ran out), which I
was forced to, since it wouldn't print B&W at all otherwise, the printer
detected the alien carts, and immediately refused to clean itself or something
- I started getting black streaks on my black text, even though the black cart
worked just fine for months the day before.

Bye bye, HP, you ain't what you used to be.

~~~
richdougherty
Here's a tip for Brother printers. When the printer asks you to replace the
toner and stops printing, you can override it with a setting. The default
setting disables printing until you replace the toner. You can change the
setting to keep printing until the toner really runs out.

Forcing you to stop printing is naughty of Brother, but at least there's a
setting so you can keep printing—if you're clever enough to find it.

------
bArray
I think this calls for a cheap open source printer to be made. Nothing complex
is needed initially, just black and white with low running costs. In reality,
any liquid that stains the paper of a given consistency should be fine. It
shouldn't be costing this much to replace ink.

~~~
PieterH
All you need to do is buy from a business that doesn't depend on fraud.
Samsung make very nice and cheap black & white laser printers. I've bought two
over the last few years, around $70. I see one on Amazon for $75 that has wifi
printing as well), comes with a cartridge that lasted me 2-3 years and some
thousands of pages, and replacement cartridges are $60 for branded ones, less
than half that for generics. The printer is tiny, quiet, fast, etc. I can't
believe people still buy anything else, after all we don't print photos at
home much anymore, do we?

There are other manufacturers that do the same kind of model.

Just avoid HP and (in my experience) Canon. Laser is the way to go.

~~~
smacktoward
Good news! HP just bought Samsung's printer business.
[http://www.anandtech.com/show/10677/hp-acquire-samsung-
print...](http://www.anandtech.com/show/10677/hp-acquire-samsung-printer-
business)

~~~
jws
There is still Brother. They make nice, inexpensive black and white laser
printers.

~~~
aruggirello
Plus they have excellent support for Linux with every single printer model -
once you install their drivers.

------
Sanddancer
I wouldn't doubt it for a second. Printer makers use the razor/razorblade
model for consumables, where the printer's dirt cheap, but the ink costs an
arm and a leg. This is just the latest tactic for getting people to go OEM
only.

At this point, I long for the good old days, when Canon embraced 3rd party ink
vendors. Canon's cartridges were cheap because the print heads were a
separate, replaceable, item, and the third parties were more than free to put
out really interesting inks, like sets of greyscale for making really nice
black and white prints.

~~~
chrisseaton
I never understood the razor/razorblade analogy. A razor handle without a
blade is just a shaped bit of plastic or metal, without any working or moving
parts. The precision engineering is all in the blade. It'd be weird if the
handle wasn't cheap and the blades more expensive.

But a printer really is a non-trivial set of electronics and working parts, so
it is more surprising that they're so cheap.

~~~
scarecrowbob
As another poster points out, modern blades are different than older style
blades where the blade was just a thin piece of sharp metal. I have one from
my great grandfather... the blades are the definitely the cheap, disposable
part. That's the model which the idea refers to.

~~~
sitharus
In modern money, my razor handle cost ~us$70, but the blades code around 20c
each.

------
woliveirajr
Laser OKI color printer isn't different.

Each toner (CMYK) has a life based on printed pages and stop working even if
there's toner inside. No third part supplier, because the printer won't
recognize it. And it's useless torefill it if you don't change some chip in
each toner.

And then the fusor will also stop after some number of pages, no matter if the
quality was still good. To replace it you spend more than you paid for the
printer.

So OKI was in my banned list, now HP joins it.

~~~
vlehto
Life based on printed pages would be OK. If you actually print the number
pages you promise, I can compare the total costs of cartridges and printers.

But I think some models also have timer. After 6 months or year, the printer
starts to complain that the ink has "dried up". To prohibit you from saving up
that unicorn blood by printing less.

By banned list is HP, Canon and I'm very cautious about Samsung.

~~~
PavlovsCat
Would you buy a water bottle that contains a certain amount of water but
closes itself after X sips regardless of remaining content?

~~~
vlehto
Thats bad analogy. I could easily just sip three times every time and have
empty bottle. If that bottle was cheaper than regular bottle, then sure.

~~~
PavlovsCat
Why is that a bad analogy? You can also print out solid black / coloured pages
and get rid of the ink before it hits the hardcoded page limit.

~~~
vlehto
I get no benefit from black pages. I get lot's of benefit from long sips.

~~~
PavlovsCat
Sucks for poor and/or disabled and/or elderly people, sucks for people with
infants, and of course, for everyone who doesn't like to have games played on
them so they save one cent which others get to pay with five cents. Oh well,
amirite?

~~~
vlehto
If you're disabled or kid, just pour that stuff to glass.

Sip is not in any way definite measurement. Sheet of paper is somewhat decent.

Better one would be this: buy a car. It will automatically stop ignition after
100 000km. Do you really have problem with that, if you know it beforehand?

------
eggy
I haven't owned and HP printer in a while, but this article will stop me from
making an HP printer my next purchase if and when I need one. What a dirty,
cheap tactic by HP! They'll fire some low-wage earner worker and a mid-level
manager over this, while the real culprit stays at his job I'm sure.
Definitely class-action, and even criminal, no? Consumer fraud, deception?

Third-party replacements are running fine in my Samsung and Canon, without a
complaint.

~~~
azarias
HP just agreed to buy Samsung's printing business.

[https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/12/hp-is-buying-samsungs-
prin...](https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/12/hp-is-buying-samsungs-printer-
business-for-1-05-billion/)

~~~
seanp2k2
Eh, those were terrible anyway. I have an ML2525w which should be wireless,
but in reality almost never joins the wifi network on boot reliably like all
of the ESP8266s I have. I have to re-run setup on it all the time, and half
the time it doesn't get detected by the tool. I gave up long ago and just
hard-wired it. If I follow the exact turn-on procedure it likes and wait for
it to be fully settled before attempting to print, it generally will start
printing within a minute or so.

Honestly, I'm so done with printers. If I really need something, I can run to
the 24hr kinkos or the office center in my complex. Owning a printer in 2016
seems kind of silly.

~~~
eggy
I've had no connectivity issues with my Samsung color laser printer. I need it
here in SE Asia, since bureaucracy still reigns and paper vs. electronics is
not quite there yet. It reminds me of Brooklyn in the 70s for that matter -
the DMV comes to mind!

Love my ESP8266; did you year about the ESP32 yet? I am trying to port Wasp
Lisp/Wasp VM to it for networking (not pentesting) not for IOT, but creating a
mesh network of sorts here in the village I have been staying in East Java -
no Kinkos or Starbucks here!

------
pmoriarty
Are there any open hardware printers in the making?

I seem to recall some open hardware cell phone projects. No reason a similar
effort couldn't be directed towards making an open printer, is there?

Also, it might not even require making a full open hardware printer, but just
some key circuitry and maybe some drivers, right?

~~~
midnitewarrior
HP and others have a lot of patents in that space with an army of lawyers to
defend them unfortunately. It would have to avoid using anything coming close
to these patents...

~~~
Harelin
Patents expire, and printers are fairly old technology, so perhaps there is to
be a printer revolution in the not so distant future?

~~~
cookiecaper
Unfortunately, the inapplicability of intellectual property doesn't seem to
matter much. They probably wouldn't use an expired patent in a suit, but many
of these places just make minor tweaks and file for a new patent on the "new
invention". There's enough grey area that you have to go to court to hash out
whether or not the technology is infringing.

Opposing IP lawyers working for one of the largest media companies in the
world have openly told an associate that while the thing they C&D'd her on may
have had a good chance to be ruled non-infringing, she should comply with the
C&D anyway since she would be financially ruined by a lawsuit, win or lose
(realistically, she wouldn't be able to win because she'd run out of money WAY
before the case even approached a conclusion -- one of big companies' favorite
strategies is to "starve out" their legal opponents by making the case as
expensive and convoluted as possible).

------
JoeAltmaier
How I get screwed: My HP printer will occasionally print a black-and-white
page using all three colors of ink. Discovered this one day when I rubbed a
fresh page and it smeared three colors. They call it 'wear leveling' or
something. But we all know it means 'using up your expensive color ink instead
of your cheap black ink'. What a crock.

~~~
ythl
That's why my HP printer only has a black cartridge. The socket for the color
cartridge is empty.

~~~
dogma1138
Yeah the problem is that some of them don't allow you to do this anymore.

Overall I've started to buy B&W only laser printers and I buy a new printer
when the toner runs out.

You can find Samsung entry level laser printers with a toner good for 300-500
pages on Amazon for about 30£ on sale that's cheaper than buying a toner.

1st world problems for sure but this is beyond stupid.

~~~
PieterH
The replacement toner is worth buying too, lasts some thousands of pages. I
love my cheap Samsung lasers.

~~~
yborg
I have bad news for you.

[http://www.anandtech.com/show/10677/hp-acquire-samsung-
print...](http://www.anandtech.com/show/10677/hp-acquire-samsung-printer-
business)

------
nine_k
Stop buying dirt-cheap printers that are sold at a loss. These are _designed_
to be paid off by expensive toner / ink. These are designed to make you waste
the supplies if you don't use them up fast enough. They are designed to reject
third-party cheaper supplies.

Pay a couple hundred more upfront for a no-bullshit device. I hope those still
exist.

~~~
jest3r1
Ya, it's our fault for looking for a deal?

How can you guarantee that paying a couple hundred more upfront would save us
all from this pre meditated corporate gluttony?

Stop buying printers from companies that build in mechanisms to purposely
brick them. Buying a high-end HP is just as risky in my opinion, based on this
story.

Cannon is another company to avoid. They just settled a similar potential
class action: [http://www.therecycler.com/posts/canon-faces-class-
actions-o...](http://www.therecycler.com/posts/canon-faces-class-actions-over-
pixma-printers/)

~~~
dfox
The problem with avoiding Canon is that essentially any desktop laser printer
on the market is in fact largely Canon's product (and the best of them in
terms of reliability and TCO are little more than Canon made print engine in a
plastic box).

On the other hand I have reasonably good experiences with OKI and Brother LED
printers. These printers tend to be reasonably cheap (I've got OKI
multifunction on sale for ~150 EUR), are full Postcript/PCL printers and
supplies are reasonably cheap too, both original and third-party.

------
chris_wot
If this is affecting printers in Australia, then HP are going to learn a very
costly lesson in ethics. The ACCC will have to do an investigation, but the
instant they confirm this has occurred they will face stiff fines for third
line forcing and anti-competitive behaviour distorting the market.

~~~
supercoder
There are no fines large enough the ACCC can serve that will stop them from
this practice. ACCC is pretty toothless again big companies like this.

~~~
chris_wot
I dunno, they stopped Apple and HP from selling "extended warranties".

~~~
supercoder
What ? Apple definitely sell extended warranties.

~~~
chris_wot
No, they do not. Not in Australia.

~~~
supercoder
[http://www.apple.com/au/shop/browse/home/applecare](http://www.apple.com/au/shop/browse/home/applecare)

------
tdkl
Does this also happens with laser toner cartridges ? I really have no idea why
people even buy those inkjet printers anymore, price per page is lower with
laser printers and prices even for a color laser are in sub 200€$ range.

~~~
clarry
Laser sucks for printing photos.

~~~
CydeWeys
Is there a reason that Shutterfly or other similar services don't satisfy
those needs? I try not to own things anymore unless I use them frequently
(lessons learned after moving twice in Manhattan), and printing color photos
definitely isn't a frequent need for me, or I suspect, for most people.

~~~
artursapek
Especially in Manhattan! You're always a few blocks away from a place that
will do it for you for a reasonable price.

------
ne01
Liberate yourself from softwares/products like this!

We used to own the stuff we paid for! Now it's like you pay to be the product.
I think this problem is worse in software.

Checkout fsf.org

~~~
imglorp
Stallman was right...

~~~
copperx
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you...

~~~
tunap
Haha, no, they're always laughing at us. First and foremost they take the
money. Then they force/trick you into loading 200MB of crap to get a kB driver
loaded. Then they ignore you, except for the multiple, obfuscated spywares the
driver bundle installed.

------
Steeeve
I've had nothing but great success using third party ink with Epson printers.
Every two-three years I buy a new epson printer and either a continuous ink
system or refillable cartridges. I never worry about the kids printing too
much or the print cartridge getting dry and clogging.

Epson gets used a lot as a base in the third party space - for things like
T-shirt printers and other textile based printing. The print heads are
reliable and accurate.

~~~
tamana
Why do you buy so many printers?

~~~
Steeeve
I don't consider one every two-three years a lot. I buy one whenever I run out
of ink.

------
proctor
This kind of reminds me of how some of these companies disable the scanner
portion of "All-in-One" type printers if the printer portion is out of ink.

------
schlowmo
Old, but still so true:

"Why I Believe Printers Were Sent From Hell To Make Us Miserable"

[http://theoatmeal.com/comics/printers](http://theoatmeal.com/comics/printers)

Had this one printed out (oh that irony) and taped it to our office wall when
we had to deal with crappy printers on a daily basis working for a big DAX
company.

~~~
kawsper
There is also this great short from CollegeHumor:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQGtucrJ8hM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQGtucrJ8hM)

------
crististm
I guess it's time due for a rerun of Ken Thomson's reverse engineering of
Mergenthaler Linotron.

[http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/summer.reconstructed.pd...](http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/summer.reconstructed.pdf)

------
dangjc
In southeast Asia, you can get an Epson L300 tank printer for about $170 USD.
Each tank refill costs $10 and lasts for 10,000 pages. This line of printers
isn't offered in the US. It's market segmentation. I think it's indicative of
the level of oligopoly in the printer industry that they can segment this well
and get away with it.

------
jasonkostempski
This isn't even remotely surprising. in early 2000's work had 5 heavy duty
color laser printers from HP to print B&W letters on. All carts stopped
working after a certain page count. Even if the color wasn't used it would
decrement the counter. We threw out THOUSANDS of full color toner cartridges.

~~~
MrTonyD
Same experience here. I smiled as I threw out my HP color laser which had
probably cost me over ten thousand dollars over its life. I've saved time,
money, and customers by throwing all my HP printers away. (I didn't even sell
them - I didn't want to give it away to some unsuspecting victim.)

------
pjc50
I'm fairly sure this is illegal in the EU under one of the e-waste directives.

~~~
clydethefrog
Yes, cartridges fall under the WEEE Directive.

What do you think is the best way to enforce the rules on HP and make this
action illegal? Contact the Member State authorities? Feel this should be
enforced by the EU instead of national... gah, directives.

~~~
pjc50
First check if the offending printers are actually being sold in Europe! They
might only be for the US market.

~~~
clydethefrog
Dutch retailer 123inkt was mostly responsible for finding this time bomb, so
yes, definitely.

------
frou_dh
Inkjet printers have been simply the most loathsome category of electronics
I've encountered. Concluded some years ago to never own one again. Garbage!
Zero tolerance!

------
legohead
For anyone tired of paying so much for ink replacements, look into a CISS
(Continuous Ink Supply System) [1]. I got one for our Epson and it far
outperforms ink cartridges and even the replacement ink is cheap.

I've had some issues with the printer recognizing the cartridges, but after
fiddling around enough it eventually does. It's definitely worth the effort.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/XUANCAI-Continuous-cartridge-
Printer-...](https://www.amazon.com/XUANCAI-Continuous-cartridge-Printer-
Cartridge/dp/B01G701EBK)

------
dre85
Is there any legitimate reason to be buying an inkjet versus a laser? I would
personally never buy an inkjet again in my life regardless of the brand.

~~~
mysterypie
Yes there is a reason: To print high-quality photos.

I have an ink jet for photos (admittedly rarely needed these days) and a
black&white laser for everything else.

Also, part of the problem is that lot of people don't realize how expensive it
is to run an ink jet and how massively cheaper a laser is in the long run. The
average person needing a printing goes to the store and sees a laser for
around $200 and an ink jet for $49, and buys the ink jet, thinking it's a
better deal.

------
bedros
just few days back (possible Sept 13th) I got the following error message

One or more cartridges appear to be damaged. Remove them and replace with new
cartridges

I was using non-hp ink cartridges.

I've been HP customer for 20 years, and I'm done with HP for their dishonesty.

------
Mister_Snuggles
I bought a Lexmark laser printer about 12 years ago. A few days ago I bought
my very first replacement toner cartridge for it - until this point I have
been using the included cartridge, which is probably a half-capacity one. As
you can guess, I do a lot of printing.

The box for the cartridge actually says that it will:

1) Only dispense a certain amount of toner before the printer will stop
printing and that there will still be some toner left in the cartridge when
this happens.

2) Update the firmware on the printer so that it won't accept 3rd-party
cartridges.

3) Stuff about me agreeing to return the used cartridge to Lexmark for
recycling since I bought a "return program" cartridge. Lexmark sold the
cartridge for a reduced price, returning it for recycling is my end of the
bargain.

They didn't use these exact words, but it was very clearly written and seemed
like it would be pretty understandable to a regular person.

On one hand, I have to give Lexmark props for full disclosure that doesn't
hide behind a click-through license or any weasel-words/legalese. On the other
hand, changing the printer after purchase to lock the owner into Lexmark
cartridges seems kind of low.

I'm really not sure how I feel about this though. I don't mind buying the
manufacturer's cartridges or packing up the old one to be returned. But at the
same time I'm worried that, in another 12 years, Lexmark might no longer be
making cartridges for this printer and I'll have to throw the printer away.

------
dec0dedab0de
As an aside, does anyone remember the last time they were happy with _ANY_ HP
product? Everytime I see that logo I get chills knowing what a pain in the ass
it's going to be.

Edit: I am specifically thinking about HPSM, and HPNA here.

~~~
giardini
dec0dedab0de: "As an aside, does anyone remember the last time they were happy
with ANY HP product? "

For the record, a company with which I consulted was very happy with the HP
1000/2100 series computers, and especially the exquisite keyboards that now-
terminated HP employees once made, with tender loving care, for those
computers. I suspect that one of these computers is stored safely in an
underground cave somewhere awaiting it's rediscovery, alongside a somewhat-
notorious VW beetle:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctin21yrfcA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctin21yrfcA)

~~~
fuzzfactor
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/HP...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/HP_1000_E-
Series_minicomputer.jpg/736px-HP_1000_E-Series_minicomputer.jpg)

------
neotek
I don't know how the DRM works on ink cartridges, but if all the off-brand
cartridges just use the same mass-produced cloned DRM "chip" (or whatever it
is), it not possible this is actually caused by a certificate expiring rather
than an intentionally malicious act by HP?

I really don't have any clue what I'm talking about, just wondering if there's
any alternative cause whatsoever.

~~~
manarth
If the intent isn't to stop generics, why have DRM on an ink cartridge at all?

Even if this instance is due to HP making a mistake, such as forgetting a
certificate renewal, the intent is there right from the beginning, by using
the DRM in the first place.

------
jmporcel
Reverse engineering is a must in this case. I cannot be accepted that you got
an HP printer and now you cannot use generic ink.

I never liked HP but now, no way I will consider to buy HP products at all.

------
raphaelh
So what is a good brand of laser printers that work well under Linux and
accepts unofficial toners?

~~~
dsr_
Brother. Look for:

\- BRScript3 (their clone of PostScript)

\- ethernet port

\- a "D" on the end means it can print on both sides, duplexing. It's slower
but oh so much more convenient.

Printers with all these features start around $100.

~~~
pfooti
Yup. I have had two brother printers so far. The first was about 8 years old
when the paper feed became unreliable, so I replaced it with a newer (color)
model. Prints great, takes whatever cartridges fit, works fine with Linux,
windows and osx. Haven't tried network printing from Android or iOS yet.

Disclaimer: I probably print about five pages a month, so it hardly sees
extensive use. I also don't print photo quality stuff, mostly role playing
maps and characters for gaming sessions. But under those constraints, it's
been great.

------
animex
Also, don't forget to mark "helpful" the most popular reviews that align with
your opinion of HP's current practices.

------
datguy111
Real simple: if you don't like it, go buy another brand printer. That's the
beauty of democracy: you're free to buy another printer/ink just like they're
allowed to protect their proprietary assets! Bunch of whiners....

------
henrygrew
Very dishonest practice from HP i'm never going to use any of their products
again.

~~~
gaius
It's very sad - I am old enough to remember when HP was synonymous with
quality and doing the right thing for both customers and employees. Hewlett
and Packard (the founders) would never have pulled a stunt like this. Fiorina
destroyed that legacy almost overnight.

~~~
MrTonyD
I'm in Silicon Valley and I know someone working in their outsourcing group.
HP has a "secret" office where they try to get all their development offshore.
They will arrange travel visas to rotate people from other countries into
hotels to work on projects. It is coordinated across the entire company in
order to cut costs. I wish that we wouldn't allow such companies to sell in
the United States (ie. companies that hide their income and employ offshore in
order to avoid employing US employees. Such companies shouldn't be able to
sell in the US.)

------
83457
I gave up on inkjet printers a long time ago. Is there any justification for
using inkjet over laser for black and white?

------
t3ra
Canon printers with a "Continuous Supply Ink Tank" FTW. Now they even have
official versions of these tanks.

------
Myce
[http://www.myce.com/news/hp-pre-programmed-failure-date-
unof...](http://www.myce.com/news/hp-pre-programmed-failure-date-unofficial-
non-hp-ink-cartridges-printers-80457/)

@mods That is the original source

HP also made a statement about this: [http://www.myce.com/news/hp-officially-
responds-pre-programm...](http://www.myce.com/news/hp-officially-responds-pre-
programmed-failure-date-non-hp-cartridges-80467/)

------
kpil
How is this legal?

As a side note, HP sells a (vintage) 256 MB DDR2 RAM module for $600 (USD) for
it's new printers.

~~~
nightcracker
Hint: it isn't.

~~~
ptaipale
Surely depends on jurisdiction.

------
dinnouti
The Amazon Basic is my go to brand, their are cheap and functional. I wish
they get into printers.

~~~
CydeWeys
That would be amazing if Amazon released store brand printers with no
nonsensical ink policies. They would wreak havoc on the entrenched players.
Amazon could pull it off.

------
denzell
how is this legal? It's akin to a car shutting down if a non genuine part is
used.

~~~
Spooky23
Tesla is already doing this, iirc. As self-driving cars become a thing, you'll
see way more of this, "for safety".

~~~
marcoperaza
In the case of automated multi-ton death machines moving at high-speed near
other people, that seems totally reasonable. You shouldn't be allowed to
tinker with your automated car and risk everyone else's lives.

~~~
tamana
No, it's not reasonable. Government should set standard, free market competes
to follow start dates with best quality and lowest cost.

Wht should Tesla be able to prevent me from replacing a bad Tesla part with a
better/safer third-party part?

~~~
marcoperaza
As long as it's advertised that way upfront, then I don't see why not. Tesla
is not going to be the only automated car manufacturer. Today, you can buy
cars that only take specialty parts. You can also buy cars that take standard
parts. I'm sure it will be that way with automated cars too. Same way that you
should be able to buy an iPhone with all of its non-standard quirks.

As for safety, it depends on the specific parts. An automated car is a
complete integrated system. Once people start swapping parts, the test-matrix
to ensure safety explodes. People modifying the driving software in their own
cars, for example, is definitely a no-go. (And modifying any software at all
should be prohibited unless the driving and entertainment computers are
completely air-gapped.)

------
JitterAtt
Update here, HP admits to doing this intentionally and makes excuses as to
why... [http://hothardware.com/news/hp-admits-to-sabotaging-ink-
cart...](http://hothardware.com/news/hp-admits-to-sabotaging-ink-cartridges)

------
tluyben2
Not trolling, but why do you use printers? I haven't used paper for 5 odd
years now. The gov here (Spain) gives me tons of paper; I photograph it and
then leave it and have them print it out when needed. Outside that I have not
needed paper since the ipad. Why do other people?

~~~
jpna66dd
Doing business: get paperwork, print paperwork, sign it, scan it, email it
back.

~~~
tluyben2
Yes, but that is one printer for my company of 400+ people. It seems people
are buying a lot more printers than just that.

------
jldugger
There has to be enough former HP engineers to find one willing to answer this
one definitively.

------
userbinator
_Because of this sudden influx of complaints, it didn’t take long to trace the
“failures” to a HP firmware update that was released during the spring._

I wonder how long it'll be until someone hacks it and releases a firmware that
has the checks patched out. I vaguely remember this being done for a few other
chipped-cartridge printers many years ago, although that was more intended for
CIS (
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_ink_system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_ink_system)
) where it makes no sense for the printer to keep thinking it's using small
cartridges.

~~~
ptaipale
Patching the firmware might be possible, but 99.42 % of consumers and
corporate users won't be doing such things even if the instruction is provided
to them on some Web page.

------
sly010
Here is a (probably worthless) idea:

Create 1 or 2 good, serviceable network printer and experiment with different
business models like subscriptions or pay-as-you-print, where the printer
manufacturer _owns_ the printer an office or home just rents it.

In such a model, the companies incentives would align with the users values:

\- Cheaper printing per page

\- Less overhead on distribution

\- No artificial costs and limitations

\- Generally better printer:

    
    
      - More serviceable
    
      - Better software
    
      - Long term support
    

\- More environmentally friendly

Most people I know doesn't own a printer and just use the office printer
anyway, so why not make the office printer just-work?

Edit: formatting

~~~
evan_
That sort of business model- leasing- is pretty common with copiers/printers
already.

~~~
sly010
Yes, but that's the opposite end of the market (e.g. industrial pronting, very
large size or volume). I am wondering if there is something in the middle.

~~~
new299
Photocopier/Printer leasing is common for small and medium sized businesses
too. If you google for photocopier leasing you'll find a huge number of
options.

------
ausjke
There is a little chip inside the cartridge, EPSON's chip was cloned in China
so you can use the third-party inks "safely", however it's not the case for
HP.

I had not bought any HP products for 10+ years.

------
snarfy
For $69 it's easy enough to buy a different printer brand.

I buy a new ink cartridge and put it in my old printer and it doesn't work.
Why should I assume the problem is the new ink cartridge and not the old
printer?

------
ClayFerguson
If this can be proven, and a class action lawsuit is filed, this would spell
the end of HP. I don't think they would have any choice but to declare
bankruptcy.

------
smhg
Reminds me of the last HP printer I owned and the priceless reviews people
wrote about it:

[https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/B0076O2A4C/RUHTFX2XOZQFY](https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/B0076O2A4C/RUHTFX2XOZQFY)

True, it was cheap, but the way in which it malfunctioned was so much over the
top that I'll never buy HP printers again.

------
tener
I wonder how this will play out. This should get the attention of consumer
rights watchdog at least, but possibly also class action suite.

------
XCSme
Just get a CISS printer. I got an Epson L300 when I started college (4 years
ago) and the printer is still going strong and I still have one full bottle of
black ink (it came with 3x black ink bottles in the box). It was about $150
when I bought it and I spent $0 on ink.

------
scotu
Well, on my mom Windows 10 pc hp software asked her if the cartridge was
pirate (unofficial?). Well, actually it was original, the only thing is that
I'm keeping an empty color cartridge instead of replacing it since I only use
black... I'm wondering wtf happened there

------
Sneakos
If you're gonna do something sketchy like this, at least be smart about it.

HP could learn from Apple...

------
FullMtlAlcoholc
I'm not a legal expert, but I want to believe that there is some law
preventing manufacturers from sabotaging their own products in order to
extract more coin from your consumers.

I want to believe...

~~~
tomcorrigan
The conduct described in the article is definitely unlawful in Australia.

------
threepipeproblm
I hope HP can prevent _all_ their future customers from talking to informed
parties, or reading informed reviews. Seems rather self destructive of them.

------
mey
Can anyone recommend a good Soho printer at this point?

------
Ericson2314
Well, I'm glad I basically don't need to print anymore. Not sure what luck got
me here, but I sure as hell aren't going back.

------
bluesign
any hard evidence about pre-programmed date on firmware?

I think this is evil and smart, \- people would by printers \- some unofficial
ink cartridge market will add good reviews etc (low printing cost) \-
increased cartridge sales for HP after set date

Sounds more like, unofficial iPhone cables not charging, but smarter (possibly
illegal though)

edit: some google search reveals[1] more like firmware update at September 13
(auto update), then pre-set date. Pretty much like Apple and third party cable
update.

edit2: More I read, I start to see 3rd party cartidge vendors didn't implement
the chipset on cartridge fully compatible, instead they went easy way around.

Third party ink vendor says: "We do not yet have an updated chipset that will
work with this new firmware version. . Customers can expect cartridge
replacements with updated chipsets to be available in two to three weeks,
possibly longer."

[1] [http://www.therecycler.com/posts/hp-inc-firmware-update-
lock...](http://www.therecycler.com/posts/hp-inc-firmware-update-locks-out-
remanufactured-cartridges-2/)

------
zimbatm
Is there any brand of printer that that doesn't do that kind of thing?

------
rihac
second sneaky thing I have heard about them recently, there was also a big
thing about them disabling the printers when you unsubscribe from the instant
ink package.

------
roflchoppa
I feel like we have this discussion every week.

------
pearjuice
Sadly, HP doesn't have a reality distortion field. Apple would have gotten
away with this and some clever marketing.

------
fred_is_fred
I'm not sure HP is smart enough to do this nefariously.

