
Ask HN: How to find software jobs that provide private offices in urban areas? - mlthoughts2018
When specifically seeking non-remote software and technology jobs in an urban area, how can you effectively search for employers that are able to provide dedicated private offices for engineers and technology workers?<p>I have previously worked in a private office, in standard high-walled cubicles, in fully open-plan spaces, and in remote positions from my home.<p>For my next job, I know that for my own productivity and cognitive health, a private office is required. No more compromises with noise-cancelling headphones, remote or work from home arrangements, or anything else. Office or bust, required for basic cognitive health.<p>One problem is simply finding companies (beyond Stack Overflow) that possibly offer private offices. Many companies literally only have open-plan seating and cannot, even for the greatest candidate, give an office (let alone possibly viewing offices as mere tools that all candidates deserve for the sake of health and productivity).<p>How can I filter these companies out of my search efficiently by finding companies that do recognize the fundamental importance of private working space?<p>Secondly, how can I present my desire for an office during my interviews, application, or negotiation? My deep conviction is that open-plan offices are not cost effective even in urban areas after accounting for productivity and morale loss, and that a private office is an essential tool, no different than a keyboard or ergonomic monitor set up. Open plan offices actually prevent teamwork and collaboration, and because I really do care about team-oriented workflows and non-superficial collaboration, giving team members important privacy at their discretion is vital.<p>What is a good way to communicate this deeply held personal value such that it is clear that a desire for a private office is directly motivated by a collaborative, team-oriented approach that values productivity and cognitive health?
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wai1234
Open plan was invented by bean counters and sold to impressionable engineers
through a combination of rah-rah misdirection and pop psychology. They save
money, period. No claim of improved collaboration or productivity has ever
been demonstrated. In fact, lots of studies say the opposite. The fact is that
senior management wants to save money and they will do that no matter what the
downside impact is on productivity or morale. You can measure the reduction in
square feet of rent easily, you can't measure lost productivity or morale at
all. Combine the money savings with the usual 'visionary' leaders claiming the
benefits of open plan, and you will lose that battle every time. As long as
engineers will put up with crappy working conditions, crappy conditions will
persist.

~~~
oceanghost
It is almost universally the case that the people and making decisions about
open office plans themselves have offices.

------
borplk
Companies that don't have the "everyone with an office" culture are not going
to accept. Even if they did you sure as hell wouldn't want to be the single
snowflake there with the private office.

Companies that do have that culture are so so rare that I don't think you
could find a job that matches all your other requirements (location, pay,
culture, role).

And I also think most of those companies that have offices tend to be "stuck
in the past". Meaning, they still haven't adopted the open office fad yet or
are soon going to do it when the next bean counter comes in.

This is quit different from companies that have offices because they are
"ahead and over the open office fad".

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huebnerob
Considering that you're asking for something that is politically and
logistically impossible at many, if not most, companies, you just need to ask
immediately if this is something that can be done, and part ways if the answer
is no.

------
tripletao
Perhaps you could work remote, but rent an office in a co-working space with
co-tenants who give you something close to your desired experience? A lot more
difficult for machine learning than for a web developer, though...

Everyone in my group has an office, so it's not impossible, even outside
academia. I'd still find the inquiry a little weird, especially with the
"cognitive health" framing. It would be better to say "I want to work to the
best of my abilities, and I've found that I'm most productive with a private
office".

~~~
mlthoughts2018
Are you able to name which company you work for, or which cities they offer
offices in?

------
juli1pb
1\. apply for the job 2\. mention your requirements to the recruiter 3\. if
ok, pass the interview 4\. if you pass, get the job, otherwise, back in 1.

What you think is probably not important: at the end of the day, what matters
is what your employer thinks. If they think you need or deserve a private
office, they will give you - otherwise, you might need to change your
expectations.

Note: as noted, universities often offers private office. I had such a job.
Nice but my salary was a fourth of what I have today. So if you do not want to
make compromise on your office space, you might to do some on your
compensation.

------
erubin
many universities offer private offices for technical staff, both for working
on in-house administrative software or working in research groups. be warned
that you might have to accept a lot less compensation than at a big tech
company.

~~~
nextos
That's true, but they are sadly moving to open plan too in many instances
which is appalling.

------
bsvalley
Tell the recruiter. I'm looking for an environment where I'll have my private
space. Unfortunately you can't filter that anywhere on the internet. You have
to get in touch with the recruiter 1st. Keep in mind, majority of the
recruiters will ignore your requirement (because it is very odd... indeed),
they'll skip it and put you straight into the classic hiring process and tell
you "yeah sure we'll see what we can do I'm sure it's doable". So you'll have
to talk to a member of the hiring team, which is probably 2-3 steps down the
road. If you get a phone screen most likely you'll end up talking to a random
engineer. Until you get to the actual hiring manager who is the only person
who can come up with a legit answer to your question.

Anyway, long story short you have to start the hiring process with a company
in order to find out if they offer private offices to their employees.

------
thorin
I've worked for 5 very large companies and one startup. I'd say if you have a
critical role in the company and aren't "just a dev/tester etc" you wouldn't
have a problem getting private space when you need it. I've often found
programme managers or senior architects can get a room for large periods of
time or project teams of 3/4 people can get a space for a number of
days/weeks/months for critical projects. I'd be surprised if this works
differently anywhere else but the default always seems to be cubes

------
Spooky23
Work remote and rent an office from a law firm.

------
mdip
I can't answer the first few questions terribly well, because I'm honestly not
sure how to go about searching for jobs that directly offer the (rare) private
office, these days, however, I have some thoughts on the later questions.

As far as the "correct" way to ask for a private office, I think you've done
it relatively well right here. If I'm reading between the lines here,
correctly, it's implied that the private office, for you, is non-negotiable
i.e. no amount of salary[0] will override the private office desire. The way
I'd handle it is the way you've presented it. This is probably something to
handle during negotiations -- after you've been given an offer -- rather than
in an interview[1]. Simply lay it out as you would salary and other elements
(e.g. software/hardware that you require to do your job effectively). I'd
include most of the explanation that you gave here, though wouldn't frame it
as "cognitive health" as that has undertones of mental illness, but rather
indicate that it's a matter of productivity. At the end of the day, you are
something they are paying a _lot_ of money for so framing the argument in a
manner that helps them to understand that, in doing so, they will be
optimizing the investment they're making in you, is key.

I'd recommend looking at a company that has a reasonable number of private
offices -- they're unlikely to build something for you and if they _do_ build
something for you, you're likely to encounter inter-personal issues with the
remainder of technical staff that does not have (but very likely wants) a
private office. You're also likely to run into a lighter version of the kinds
of problems you get when you're the "only remote person" \-- out of sight out
of mind. Staff may see the open-office as a license to walk up to someones
desk where your private office will serve as an unconscious barrier in that
case. At least in the places I've worked, it's not unusual to have 10% of desk
space be offices and for some of the senior engineering staff (usually folks
who have been with the company for a while) have private offices.

I also don't find what you're looking for to be terribly burdensome (again,
provided they don't have to build something for you). In past jobs, I've seen
more onerous requests be offered if the candidate is excellent and we were in
a tight spot or other circumstances warranted.

[0] OK, everything has a price - for a few million, most of us will work with
our hands tied behind our backs, but I digress...

[1] In the most ideal circumstances, you'll be a great fit and will be far
ahead of the next best candidate that they didn't make an offer to. This
invokes loss aversion on the part of the hiring manager making it more likely
they'll be willing to entertain your request if it otherwise isn't a normal
thing for them.

~~~
mlthoughts2018
Thanks for the considerate advice. I definitely see what you mean with
“cognitive health” carrying the wrong connotation.

In my experience interviewing, companies right now seem less willing than ever
to negotiate. In my field (machine learning), despite all the pop articles you
see, my observation is huge downward pressure on wages and a big focus on
hiring young, junior level staff even for positions that claim to require many
years of experience with highly specialized technology.

In one case, I interviewed for two months with a firm (phone interviews, code
tests, and two different difficult all-day on-site technical evaluations). I
did very well and it seemed clear that my particular experience and
specialization was right in the exact area they were seeking, definitely
something requiring a lot of prior work experience in a certain type of
production machine learning service.

After all of that, they asked my salary requirements (we did not even get to
the point of negotiating an office or anything else), and when I mentioned I
was seeking something around 20% higher than my current salary, something
definitely in the competitive market range for this position, they balked as
if they could not believe how high a salary it was.

A few days later I got an automated rejection email stating they were seeking
a less-experienced candidate.

In a few other cases when I was in early interviews for jobs I was much less
invested in, I decided to test the waters on private offices, and frequently I
heard,

\- “I’m the hiring manager and _I_ don’t even have an office.”

\- “Our CEO doesn’t believe in offices”

\- “We are looking for someone who can work in a collaborative environment”
(apparently for some people office == not collaborative?)

and many more. Imagine if I had to do two months of grueling tech hazing
software interviews at all these places just to find out they operate without
the logical possibility of an office? I don’t think I could.

But at the same time, if I bring it up too early, it could be seen as if I’m
being demanding instead of curious, or it could look like I want to hide in an
office rather than using an office to create sincere collaboration that
acknowledges the importance of privacy during certain work.

This is what makes it tricky.

~~~
mdip
Glad I could be of assistance -- let me see if I can assist further:

I have to say I'm a _little_ surprised you're running into issues on the
negotiation front -- but that may be where you live and other circumstances.
Where I'm at (the Detroit area), there are fewer of the well-known huge tech
companies, and I'm unaware of any, in particular, that do things like catered
lunches, but there are plenty of great jobs and the market is _very_ hot. On
that, though, the best talent wants to work at the top places but the places
that are traditionally "unsexy" are the ones that are going to be more willing
to negotiate. I'm not sure, however, how many of these places are looking for
ML candidates -- you're probably going to find that limits you a bit and that
might be part of the problem[0].

As far as salary negotiations, that's the _hardest_ thing to get right. It's
_very_ difficult to pull off, for me, but the golden rule is to not be the one
to give the first figure. This will _not_ make your hiring manager happy. I've
always been able to successfully deflect the conversation before the final
interview with some choice words[1]. If they insist and are turned off by a
candidate seeking the best possible outcome in a salary negotiation, I'd take
that as a big red flag and be done with it. If you're working with a
recruiter,... stop returning his/her calls. It takes creative finesse to
handle this well and I strongly suggest doing a few HN searches for good
advice (there was a post I laboured to find which helped me out a lot and got
me what I wanted in this area). The thing of it is, it _feels_ like you're
negatively impacting your chances of getting the job when you play a bit of
hardball on these things, but if handled correctly and professionally, it
demonstrates characteristics that a hiring manager _expects_ out of someone in
a senior position. It also indicates that you carry ambition along with your
technical skills.

Here's the single best piece of advice I have gotten about job hunting -- and
bear in mind, I'm from Detroit, so we do a _lot_ of car analogies: "What color
do you want? The cheapest color" and "Don't sit in the car". Both of these
things are not common-sense advice -- we test drive the cars we want to buy
because we _think_ we're going to learn something about the car by doing so
and we pick a color because we _think_ that's going to be particularly
important to me. The reason that car color is the first thing you're asked
about is because it puts you a little closer toward the illusion that you own
the car, already. The test drive creates a _very_ powerful connection between
you and this potential purchase. The salesman _knows_ if he puts you in the
seat and you drive away, the probability of you buying that car goes up
substantially. It's _not_ enough to just be aware of these things, it's
important to guard _against_ things that will unreasonably bias you toward
becoming attached to the car. This advice applies to _all_ negotiation. If you
avoid things that will trigger loss aversion, you will have an unemotional
focus on the target attributes and can evaluate the decision you're making
based on those things[2].

You're coming in with a requirement that might very well be a non-starter
because of some "corporate philosophy" (somehow, open floor plans have a
religious fervor about them). I have different requirements than yours, but
when I encounter a company that has a "policy" against things that I feel make
me more effective, I graciously turn the job down, early. I do so before they
have the opportunity to even offer to see if there's a way they can work
around this policy for me[3]. Aside from the footnote, the biggest red flag I
find is inflexible policy -- it's the kind of thing that causes a company to
lack nimbleness. Companies that I _want_ to work for treat policy as guidance
and are willing to break policy[4] when the circumstances fit.

I can see the collaborative thing coming up _a lot_ because of the fallacy
that open office environments foster collaboration. I'd find a way to work
collaboration in directly with your initial argument -- something along the
lines of "As a Senior Developer, I understand that part of my responsibilities
will be to share my skills with my coworkers with the goal of making more
senior developers. I'll make sure my door is open except for the rare occasion
that a deadline necessitates me to be "nose down in code".[5]" There's a small
mind hack you can play if you're good at that sort of thing, but be careful,
because if you're not it can backfire pretty badly. Follow-up with "At this
point in my career, I've learned that communication _has_ to be deliberate and
that's the way I approach things. I'm confident that my approach to
communication will make any concerns around collaboration a non-issue."
Deliver that as casually as you can -- as if it's a simple, obvious, fact and
you end up putting the hiring manager in a tough spot for a rebuttal[6].

I completely understand not relishing wanting to put up with months of job
hunting/"tech hazing". Job hunting isn't terribly fun. Might not hurt to ask
questions in forums where employees of the companies you're looking at
frequent asking about offices if you want to improve the hit ratio. Another
option that could help to eliminate places earlier in the process is to
request a quick tour after the first on-site interview[7]

Unfortunately, though, when you have a lot of requirements, or when your
requirements are not the norm, it's normal for this sort of thing to take a
while and require a lot of work on your part to sort out. The tech hazing will
wear you down and increase loss aversion, making it harder to walk away from a
good offer that doesn't meet your requirements. And maybe you shouldn't walk
away -- that's your call. At the same time, if this is _really_ important to
you, this is the market to be picky in. The market is hot. If you can keep
yourself from being discouraged, you'll probably end up where you want with
enough persistence.

As an aside - I got a kick out of the excuses you received "I'm the hiring
manager and _I_ don't even have an office." There are so many things I can
think of to say to that which would get my resume binned: "Oh ... (shuffles
feet) ... well, can I talk to your boss then?" or a sarcastic quip along the
lines of "Work this out for me and you'll have one more argument to make for
why you deserve one!"

[0] And I'm not suggesting you avoid ML jobs -- if that's where you fit best,
stick with it.

[1] ala "I'm seeking Senior level position and with my experience, I expect to
be paid above average for the market however, salary isn't my greatest concern
and other things like benefits and such greatly affect any number I'd throw
out right now. If after all of the interviewing is done you find that I'm
going to be a good fit, I'm confident we can come to an agreement that works
out for both of us."

[2] And it's entertaining, too.

[3] Generally, I don't want to work at a place where they had to make a
_major_ exception for something that I would have considered a _reasonable_
accommodation, particularly if that accommodation is one that 90% of the
people who currently work there would similarly want. If they are interested
enough in hiring me that _after_ I have turned down the job, they pop up
_with_ a way to provide that accommodation, I would consider it -- and this
actual situation happened to me about 15 years ago, but I ended up not taking
the position.

[4] And I'm not referring to ethics-based or legal-based policies.

[5] Here's the thing -- if offices are unusual where you're looking, the fact
that you _have_ a door serves as a psychological barrier -- you'll rarely
_need_ to close it. But it also doesn't matter -- that's something you work
out with your boss after you've got a place to plant your hind-quarters. And
you work through that concern by checking in with your boss every two weeks
with a "Hey, just wanted to make sure I'm meeting your expectations as far as
collaboration is concerned"... no mention of the door. Leave an opportunity
for them to speak up if there are concerns, but you'll probably find that your
boss has better things to be concerned with. Incidentally, I know that
Microsoft at one point was big on offices. I'm not sure if that's still the
case, though.

[6] And a rebuttal isn't a bad thing -- at least they want you there badly
enough to try to persuade you to change your mind.

[7] "Wow - your office is far more impressive than the pictures online led me
to believe -- would you be willing to give me a brief tour?" I've never had
this fail at places that have fewer than 200 employees -- people like to show
off where they work. If it's a high-security operation, though, don't expect
to see much. :)

~~~
mlthoughts2018
Thanks for such detailed follow-ups. I appreciate it and will read your
comments again to really think about some of the points you raise.

Regarding my tough time with current negotiations, there was a recent article
that really summed up my experiences: <
[http://fuzzyblog.io/blog/jobhound/2018/04/24/ten-things-i-
le...](http://fuzzyblog.io/blog/jobhound/2018/04/24/ten-things-i-learned-from-
a-job-hunt-for-a-senior-engineering-role.html) >.

I live in a large US city, and seeking senior machine learning roles has been
dreadful, for all the reasons mentioned in the article, combined with what
looks like big downward pressure on salary.

