
Screw motivation, what you need is discipline - lukasLansky
http://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need-is-discipline/
======
reitzensteinm
This seems to me to be a bit like saying "screw hammers, what you need are
screwdrivers."

There's a brilliant talk by John Cleese that floats around HN every 6 months
or so on how to be creative; if you haven't seen it yet, and you're interested
in such a topic, please please please watch it:

[http://vimeo.com/89936101](http://vimeo.com/89936101)

If you agree with Cleese's premise, I think it follows that what you need is
motivation for the open mode (the blue sky, blank sheet of paper period), and
discipline for the closed mode where you put your head down and get the work
done.

If you try to use discipline when your job is to daydream about possibilities
(whether you realize it or not), you'll just steamroll over any insights,
ideas, creative thoughts with a get-it-done attitude. Your forced march
straight off a cliff will be legendary.

But then, when you've got a good idea fleshed out and you just need to execute
relatively mindlessly, working only when you feel motivated will be extremely
counter productive, and in my mind, is where a lot of the "the last 20% takes
80% of the work" feeling comes from. You learn the true meaning of the phrase
"work expands to fill the time allotted", and if you're bootstrapping by
moonlighting, this is essentially infinite.

I've been stung badly by both errors in my career, with the worst case for
each leaving me burned out, disillusioned and seriously considering a career
change.

As an aside, I know you have to write authoritatively and with a simple
premise to get good traffic to a blog, but reality is usually messy and
complex, with a wealth of examples and counter examples. So often it feels
like we end up with (and please forgive the straw man) a series of posts in
quick succession bouncing around the blogosphere like "getting the most out of
your hammer" "hammers considered harmful" "screwdrivers as hammer
replacements" "hammer techniques for dealing with legacy screws" "full tool
belt carpentry drowning us in complexity". And which is right? All of them,
and none of them, at the same time.

~~~
netcan
For an apposite view: [http://www.stevenpressfield.com/the-war-of-
art/](http://www.stevenpressfield.com/the-war-of-art/)

The premise is _The muse is at your writing desk._ If you want to write a
book, show up. Sit down. Write. Ideas will only come if you are working. Any
thoughts ideas, rationalisations or fears that keep you from writing are the
enemy. He collectively calls them "resistance".

You will inevitably have days and weeks without a useful page. Show up still.

I think following your motivation is great. If you are sitting around waiting
for it, you need discipline. This is what this blog is about.

~~~
lurcio
I'd suggest the Unquiet Grave (Cyril Connolly) as an older but richer and more
creative examination of the issue.

If I took my lead from Palinurus, I'd remark that 'the war of art'
demonstrates the cultural penury of our age.

But then Palinurus took that view of himself too.

------
visakanv
I have been thinking, reading and writing about motivation / discipline /
procrastination / akrasia for years now. I'm always looking for really good
material on the subject. Unfortunately for some strange reason, most of the
posts I've seen that get to the front page of Hacker News are woefully
oversimplistic.

Even discipline is something that requires some sort of motivation to
cultivate. It is something that you have to want to do, and getting yourself
to want to do something isn't (in my opinion) nearly as trivial as a lot of
people pretend it is.

So screw motivation, screw discipline, what you need is a comprehensive,
holistic solution that encompasses almost everything– that's why it's so
difficult to change your life.

1- You need to figure out your expectancy of accomplishing tasks. Discipline
won't help you if you bite off more than you can chew.

2- You need to figure out what's valuable to you. There's not much sense in
getting disciplined at doing something you hate. PG wrote in one of his
essays- paulgraham.com/love.html, I believe, where he talks about a doctor who
became a doctor because she was so focused and disciplined– despite the fact
that she never actually loved medicine.

3– You need to engineer your environment + choose the right peers. This is way
more than half the battle, and it also involves taking more drastic action
than a lot of people are comfortable with.

4- You need to chop up your tasks into things that have nearly-immediate
feedback, because otherwise hyperbolic discounting makes things seem
irrelevant and unimportant to us (especially bad if you have ADHD).

5- You need to have a vested interest in doing all of the above. That means
having some sort of reason or motive... which you might also call
"motivation."

TL;DR:

Motivation / discipline / getting-stuff-done is a lot more complicated than
"screw X, do Y".

PS:

"Screw X, do Y" seems to be a rhetoric device writers use when want to drum up
strong feelings in people, dividing people into Camp X and Camp Y. Once you
learn to see it, it actually gets rather boring and underwhelming. If you skip
all the rhetoric, what the writer is saying is to develop habits. "Start
small", that's it.

Would've been more interesting to read a post about the specific development
of habits. Because, often you'll find, you end up needing some motivation to
getting around to changing your habits, too.

~~~
netcan
I think part of the discipline problem is the solipsism of our times.

In an army, your environment provides discipline and (often) fosters
motivation for (for example) fitness. A fitness class reduces the need to
discipline & self motivation to getting yourself to the class. After that, the
environment takes care of itself. Self discipline and self motivation is a
problematic subset of discipline and we're not really wired to run on it
exclusively.

This is part of why you need a partner to start a startup. Having discipline
and motivation together is easier than alone. It's why I don't think online
education can replace institutional education (though I think it can make it
much better) as the default mode. It's why even in one-on-one sports like
tennis or boxing young athletes are on "teams."

~~~
jimhillhouse
When in college, I saw my friends, who were once in the military, power
through learning at time frustratingly difficult subjects. It didn't take long
to see that their consistent efforts yielded progress in excess of what the
rest of us "self-motivators" were making. I don't know why that came as a
surprise. After all, my Dad, who was a staff sergeant, raised three boys by
himself-our mother died when we were 3, 2, 6 mos-while running an architecture
firm.

Some may say we need a holistic approach in how we get ourselves to do what
can be unpleasant but also life and career enhancing tasks; I think that makes
things more complicated than they need to be. The times when I've applied the
disciplined approach to work have been my most productive. Other people's
mileage may vary.

------
jacquesm
This is probably the best post to hit HN all month. It's a thing that I notice
over and over again, the ability to execute and persevere is strongly
correlated with individuals that show (self)discipline. The ability to get out
of bed (even when you don't want to) to work real hard (even when faced with a
hundred or more distractions, or on something that you may not even like) and
the ability to keep a long term goal in the cross hairs even when the going
gets tough has 'discipline' written all over it.

And over time that translates into success. (For sure people will think of it
as achieved 'overnight' but don't let that bother you.)

Motivation is something that gets mistaken by many for discipline, but in fact
motivation is what makes you go downhill faster, discipline is what gets you
_uphill_ and most of the times you'll be going uphill.

~~~
aidenn0
Do you know of any adults who have successfully cultivated discipline? Based
on those I've known since elementary school and still know today, perhaps 80%
of the discipline I see in people can be explained by how much discipline they
had at 10 years of age.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Ok, so what can one do? I have a genetic discipline disorder, as 23andMe could
confirm you, if I could be bothered to do the screening. I possess exactly
ZERO self-discipline, and in retrospect, I guess I never had any. I own my
career to not having enough discipline to do my math homework at 13 - that's
when I picked up programming. The lack of self-discipline is becoming an
obstacle in professional lie though. How does one fix this?

~~~
netcan
Try to decrease your reliance on _self_ discipline.

IE, get external forces working in your favour. You could use a coach or
psychologist. Commit to tasks. Make sure they check up on you. Work closely
with others. Pair programming or an environment where someone is waiting for
you to finish something so they can start something else. Seek environments
where you can't hide procrastination. discipline thrives in public.

Basically.. cheat.

~~~
icebraining
That's what works for me. When the task is boring, the guilt of letting other
people hanging pushes me to finish it. It doesn't quite work for personal
improvement, though, at least for me.

------
axanoeychron
I completely agree with this article. I would like to share a story of my own
journey in this.

For a long time I had wanted to lose some weight and to remove some bad
habits. It dawned on me that I could eliminate the habit altogether by scaling
back to extreme levels. For example, I completely stopped eating sugary foods
such as chocolate for 8 months. I stopped buying coffee from coffee shops
every day. I replaced my meals with crazy simple meals such as rice, tamago
kake gohan, potatos, eggs and vegetables. It is surprisingly easier to just
cut something out of your life and then add things back as necessary.

It occurred to me if you can do this, you can do anything. You're replacing
daily motivation - which can be depleted (ego depletion) - with a unwavering
commitment everyday - to eat simple things or forego things you did not even
think twice about before. You just don't do X. There is no way for you to self
justify any more.

It is surprising how after a while, you do not really even miss the daily
coffee or chocolate because you feel happy that you were disciplined enough to
give it up. You're strong.

In my case, my journey cross fertilised another goal: to cut down on expenses.
It is shocking how much money we all spend for very little benefit!

I am sure someone will reply saying 'life is for living' and all that. The
question is, are they strong enough to do the same?

~~~
swah
My problem with this is someday I'll rationalize that its not a big deal and
go on a spending/eating spree...

------
hf
Ah, but what is discipline? Shifting the vocabulary burden around doesn't
accomplish much. Discipline easily translates to will power (to _do_ even in
the face of adverse circumstances).

But haven't we learned recently to consider will power a finite resource?
Something that cannot be switched on at will arbitrarily[0]?

The author himself escapes this accusation only by the skin of his teeth in
the next-to-last paragraph:

    
    
       How do you cultivate discipline? 
       By building habits – [...]
    

Habit. This word, comparatively unprepossessing as it may sound, sits really
at the core of the discourse[1].

Whenever my thoughts stray to punishing myself for lack of discipline, I try
to remember to leave that martial outlook towards life to the Spartans[2] and
reflect peacefully on my habits instead.

[0] Except, tongue-in-cheek, if you add sugar.

[1] Lest I leave an opening: It already is in Covey's seminal 1989 'Seven
Habits',
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Habits_of_Highly_Eff...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Habits_of_Highly_Effective_People)

[2] In this way, trying to _force_ discipline may easily lead to results that
are as devastating as those that the author foresees for motivational
strategies.

~~~
ferrouswheel
Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly
because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have
acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act
but a habit. ~ Aristotle

------
jokoon
I disagree.

Discipline is learned. You need something that structures and builds your
discipline.

You need a minimum amount of purpose that comes from outside. You can't learn
discipline by yourself, it needs to be encouraged and taught.

It's usually the role of society to put people into a position of productivity
and personal progress. It's very tricky. Sometimes it just doesn't work
because people just can't see how their inspiration could bring value to
society, often because society is not set to recognize certain domains of
work. That's a major source of stagnation.

The author talks like individuals work alone for personal achievement. Nobody
works for personal goals. Everyone works in a societal context.

Discipline is another word for a very structured habit in a society of
productivity. Procrastination is just caused by lack of insight and unbalanced
processes, so it's usually a plain lack of communication, management or
motivation.

Discipline is just civilization regulating habits to create motivation out of
thin air. Without a minimum amount of motivation, discipline won't happen.

------
ebiester
Did you ever notice that nobody ever talks about how to cultivate disciplne?
If it wee as easy as "just go do it" than everyone would.

The latest analogy of discipline is of a muscle. Do more and it gets bigger,
right? Not exactly. While true in some aspect, it leads to bad choices on
later decisions you make, at least in creative work.

Three ways to improve discipline:

1\. Develop a mindful meditation practice. It will produce more awareness,
which in my experience helps me get started and work through to the edge of
where I am making bad decisions, and recognize if I'm bored or actually tired
and adjust accordingly. You will know if it helps you within a few weeks.

2\. Develop a choice minimal lifestyle. Arbitrary choices seemingly come from
the same pool as discipline. Where possible, turn choices into a habit. "I
start at 9 because I start at 9' not because I choose to start at 9." It seems
odd but it works.

3\. Closely related, excersise will increase your mental endurance, which is
as good as discipline in many cases. Diet also increased it -- while a quick
glycogen hit can help for 15 minutes, I have found great benefit to dropping
sugar and simple carbohydrates out of my diet while working. It's worth seeing
if it works for you.

~~~
jasonm23
It's actually easy to "Just do it"

I will roundly reject your 3 steps to discipline, as they are wishy-washy and
completely irrelevant to actually creating self discipline.

Here's a few steps that might help someone who isn't trying to be a massive
poseur.

1\. Be really really hard on yourself. Tell yourself constantly that you are
not good enough, and you MUST do better, in fact it's pathetic how little you
have accomplished.

2\. Work, work, work, work, work... think you have time for fun? Think again
smart girl|boy, now, WORK HARDER.

3\. Develop a sense of humor about the horrible pain you are putting yourself
through. That way, you'll be able to pile some more on, while telling yourself
to wipe that stupid grin of your face.

Also eat well, otherwise you may get sick or fat or die... all of those things
would be pathetic, beat yourself up some more.

Alternatively, join the army.

Of course, you can side step all this pain and suffering and just get on with
it! Now get back to work!

(I hope my parent commenter understands this is firmly tongue in cheek, but
I'll point that out anyway.)

(PS. of course, much truth is spoke in jest.)

(for a real response, see Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.)

~~~
ebiester
I'm not saying that Covey doesn't have good points, but they are better fit to
the manager schedule, not the maker schedule.

What I am saying is that that "just do it" method of discipline _building_ is
rather useless for creative work. I have seen my fair share of people who have
failed with this advice.

I failed with that advice for years.

I solved my problem with the three above.

------
drawkbox
Being a professional is knowing how to get into a high quality productive mode
regularly and consistently.

It might mean doing things you don't want to currently do at that time but it
is fueled by long term goals over short term goals.

That said, part of that process is knowing where to target your motivation.
Creativity can take motivation and that does play a role in design and
developing products.

------
reinhardt
As someone struggling with motivation even more than the average first world
person, this hit right at home. Lacking the motivation to cook, do the dishes
or the laundry is one thing. Lacking the will power to do generally "fun"
stuff like going outside, hanging out with friends, dating, creativity is
another.

Hitting the gym is one of the few activities I still pursue with a relative
consistency but wouldn't be there without the minimal self-discipline required
to get my butt of my chair or bed and go even when I don't feel like it. In
fact that's the hardest part; huffing and puffing for the next hour or so is
easy in comparison.

------
bsmith
Wow, this hits so close to home for me. I have intentionally been trying to
cultivate better habits to underpin my own efforts to become more disciplined
and effective, and in fact, I wouldn't have even been awake yet[1] to see this
on HN if I hadn't been taking steps in that direction already.

From what I've observed, the most successful/effective/<insert positive
adjective here> humans of the present and past (and presumably, the future as
well) have been know for the rigor of their habits and schedules[2]. I'm
curious to know what steps some of my fellow HNers have taken to cultivate
better habits/routines for themselves.

I'll leave you with a quote from the legendary artist Chuck Close:

“Inspiration is for amateurs — the rest of us just show up and get to work.”

1\. It's before 7am CST, and I've been awake for almost two hours:
[https://twitter.com/thisisbrians/status/561486866914869248](https://twitter.com/thisisbrians/status/561486866914869248)

2\. This list is just of 'creatives' (whatever that means), but you get the
idea: [https://podio.com/site/creative-
routines](https://podio.com/site/creative-routines)

------
mr_olive
I second the OP. The "emotional" motivation has brought me quite far in my
life. I always enjoyed learning. I got into programming because it was easily
triggering the "reward circuits" in my brain. But as life follows, there are
more and more things that need to be done, but require quite some mental
effort to start.

So I decided it is time for a paradigm shift. I would rather do things I
consider worth doing, instead of doing those that my brain finds attractive
and immediately rewarding. I am following this paradigm for a few months now,
and can confirm that satisfaction coming when the job is finished is truly
rewarding.

Related reading: "The obstacle is the way", by Ryan Holiday. A very concise
introduction to stoicism philosophy. The life approach presented by the author
has many common points with those of OP.

[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18668059-the-obstacle-
is...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18668059-the-obstacle-is-the-way)

------
andrewchambers
Thanks for this, I needed to read something like this. I seriously burn out on
ideas halfway through execution because I rely too much on motivation, but
lack the required discipline.

------
jonsen
Be sure to read to the end and notice that habits are what you need. Those
unconscious self perpetuating mechanisms that actually drives most things.

~~~
reinhardt
On forming a habit, I found this insightful:
[http://www.bristollair.com/2008/inner-game/identity-
beliefs/...](http://www.bristollair.com/2008/inner-game/identity-
beliefs/implementing-a-habi/)

Note: It's from a PUA dude but this isn't about PU, it applies to all areas.

------
Mobiu5
The "problem" is framed to support the author's sentiments about discipline.
"Motivation vs discipline" is not a useful description of the problem at all
("x vs y" arguments seldom are). In my experience, people who frame the
problem in this way are accustomed to doing what other people want them to do.
They get depressed and unmotivated and wonder why they can't "make themselves"
do things. So they decide to misuse the idea of discipline to complete their
transformation into an automaton! Try this instead: Do whatever YOU want to
do. Find what motivates you and pursue it. It really is that simple.

------
iopq
I forced myself to go to a job I hated. I lasted two months. Each day I spent
more and more time reading shit on my phone in the bathroom. My breaks got
longer and longer. When they started to call me out on this I just quit.

Just discipline they said!

~~~
jacquesm
You had other options: get the job done, _then_ quit, and get it done in
record time so you can quit faster. Chances are that if you had gone that
route that in the end you might not even have quit.

~~~
iopq
What? No, I did get the job done. Then I'd get more work I didn't want to do.
I just decided not to do the next assignment.

------
dsjoerg
This article gets some important things backwards in order to take on its
overconfident alpha dog tone.

Notably absent is how goals are chosen. Certainly some goals are better than
others? And won't we be more motivated to pursue good goals and less motivated
to pursue bad goals? And then mustn't we pay attention to a lack of motivation
as the sign that we've chosen our goals poorly?

That said, I agree that discipline is important because even when you've
chosen good goals, there will be hard, boring work required to achieve them.

------
daliwali
I find that I can force myself to do a task that I extremely dislike, that is
discipline. But an important prerequisite is motivation.

Case in point: I could force myself to improve upon a real-time bidding
algorithm, resulting in more winning bids and targeted advertisements to
appear on a largely captive and passive audience. Perhaps aspects of the
bidding system could be improved to use less CPU cycles, memory, saving cost
on the infrastructure to run it. I could get into the finer details of the
time-complexity of every operation.

But why should I be expending my effort, a part of my lifetime, on helping to
sell something people don't need? To the benefit of big corporate brands while
they pay me a pittance of their enormous profits? A major problem with this
"screw motivation" philosophy is that it encourages more mindless work in
favor of the status quo. The quintessential codemonkey churning out code as if
that is its purpose to follow orders from above.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Eichmanns](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Eichmanns)

Another misconception the author has is that someone has to be in the right
emotional state to be motivated to do something, to which I reply emphatically
FUCK NO. Things don't just get done out of an emotional urge to do things. I
am not always feeling enthusiastic about my side projects but I am highly
motivated to do them even if it involves dry reading of technical specs. With
lots of discipline and little motivation I could plod through the boring parts
and forget about what I was trying to do (and this is what I feel most schools
optimize for).

------
jeffreyrogers
Heuristic: The people who talk most about motivation have it the least.

I'm quite accomplished by an reasonable standard in at least a few fields
(academics, athletics, hopefully programming skill), and I haven't concerned
myself with motivation since my early years of high school. Thinking in terms
of motivation seems to me to be a solution to an ill-posed problem. Rather
than asking, "how can I get motivated?" you should be wondering, how can I
find something to work for so that I don't need motivation. Once I started
focusing my attention on things I was good at and that were intrinsically
rewarding, I found that I didn't need to force myself to do things that I
"should" do. Instead I was doing things I wanted to do, and that also were
beneficial to my long term goals.

This wasn't all positive however, in athletics it created some conflict with
my teammates, since their outlook was so outcome focused (we have to win, we
have to get our times down to such and such a number, etc.), while mine was
much more process focused (let's figure out how we can practice effectively,
let's acknowledge that this was a bad practice and try to see how we can
improve it in the future, etc.).

------
amjaeger
This author has obviously never had to deal with ADHD... If you replace work
with going to the gym, discipline says "go to the gym" but regardless of
discipline you cannot lift the 300 lb weight." Likewise, discipline can get me
to sit at my desk, but it alone cannot make me do the work. It is not
physically possible. There really does need to be something else. Motivation,
incentive etc.

~~~
bcbrown
> discipline says "go to the gym" but regardless of discipline you cannot lift
> the 300 lb weight.

That's not true. The only reason I was able to lift 300 lbs is by going to the
gym three times a week for a year. Discipline/willpower is what got me to the
gym consistently, without missing days.

------
neuronic
I don't know other people's experiences so this is all just my subjective
view.

I am so sick of all the bulls __* posted on social media. Places like r
/getmotivated or Facebook sites with daily quotes about motivation... Imagine
a head shot of a marble statue of Napoleon Bonaparte, dark background and
white floating text with a nice font that reads "If you wish to be a success
in the world, promise everything, deliver nothing. - Napoleon"

It does literally nothing except to incite a state of mind that is more
temporary than cigarette smoke fading into the air.

Discipline (+ coffee?) is the only thing that reliably brings you anywhere. I
am a grad student with multiple jobs and looking at stupid pictures or videos
to do my work is not even remotely helping me. What helps me is managing my
time such that I can sleep more than 4-5 hours a night. I have difficulty with
that and no "motivational app/ website/ media" will truly help me with that
struggle. I am not doing the jobs next to grad school because I enjoy being
stressed... I don't have a choice.

------
ZenoArrow
I agree completely that discipline is the key to building good habits, and
after you have a set of good habits maintaining them is relatively easy.

However, motivation is a little more important than the author is making out,
and that's in setting an initial direction. Why would you be disciplined if
you don't know what you want?

Let motivation tell you what you want, and discipline let you get there.

------
AnthonBerg
G.D D.MN this is so well written:

"I do not consider self-inflicted episodes of hypomania the optimal driver of
human activity. A thymic compensation via depressive episodes is inevitable,
since the human brain will not tolerate abuse indefinitely. There are stops
and safety valves. There are hormonal hangovers."

------
KedarMhaswade
Incidentally, I am reading Cal Newport's "So Good ..." and the thoughts in
this article resonate with some of those expressed in Cal's book. Half way
through the book right now, and I can say that it is an unusual advice made to
a society that harps the passion hypothesis. An interesting thing is on
Amazon, the book that allegedly started/fueled the passion hypothesis (What
Color is your Parachute?) gets 5 stars from 62% of the reviews, whereas "So
Good ..." gets 5 stars from 56% of the reviews!

If you are born and brought up in a setup where passion hypothesis is
predominant, the advice "passion is rare and is a side-effect of mastery/hard-
work" and "skill trumps passion" comes as an eye-opener.

------
hashtree
Daily Rituals (book) which covers the work habits of ~160 famous writers,
artists, philosophers, scientists, and mathematicians. Nearly every single one
had a strict schedule to force work into specific time slots rather than
letting inspiration strike, they tended to be morning people, and they tended
to work shorter days but worked everyday. While still anecdotal, an
interesting read on how many great minds spent their work days; nearly each
one seemed to follow this same notion that you favor discipline over
motivation.

[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15799151-daily-
rituals](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15799151-daily-rituals)

------
fndrplayer13
I really enjoyed this read, and I think the author has a very valid point. I
spent the first portion of my college time for example very much in the "I'll
wait to feel motivated" camp and had not so great results. I eventually
transitioned into the "I need to do stuff right away to be successful" state
of mind and have been there ever since. Honestly I think I'd pin most of the
successes I've had since then on that world view. These days I actually love
being an engineer and look forward to taking care of many of my daily tasks --
be it work and chores.

Speaking of which, I should probably clean the house. lol.

------
velco
Motivation is the goal. Discipline is the means.

------
j45
Love the focus on discipline. Most of us cringe or struggle with the idea that
discipline will somehow constrain or cause us pain, but it's really come down
to one thing for me to remember.

Always build my ability to build discipline and all other habits can be
improved or developed because I have discipline.

Discipline creates freedom from things by doing what is needed to be done in
the short term for a long term.

Wisdom is to know that discipline is the master skill to develop, whether it's
the discipline to be creative (and for how long), and the discipline to power
through the things that need doing, serves or transfers as skills.

------
calinet6
As many have said, it is more complex.

But there are two great insights here:

1\. Productivity is a system, not a sequence. Many things are interrelated and
motivation is often generated by simple completion of tasks.

2\. Motivation without other parts of that system may be insufficient to be
productive.

Personally, I've found lack of productivity or motivation to come from unclear
or disorganized states, and systems like GTD go a long way to clear that up.
When you frame this inflammatory article in terms of discipline just being
systems like GTD or just lists that work, it makes some sense.

But mostly, it says a lot of words that seem to be angry at abstract concepts.

------
AnonJ
Basically true. Glad to see that it's still something from oneself(self-
discipline) instead of anything imposed by the outside world. However there's
one thing that I can't really agree with:

> Trying to drum up enthusiasm for fundamentally dull and soul crushing
> activities is literally a form of deliberate psychological self-harm, a
> voluntary insanity: “I AM SO PASSIONATE ABOUT THESE SPREADSHEETS, I CAN’T
> WAIT TO FILL OUT THE EQUATION FOR FUTURE VALUE OF ANNUITY, I LOVE MY JOB
> SOOO MUCH!”

Nonsense. "Cutting the link between feelings and actions" is to prevent the
_short-term_ irrational and counterproductive effects brought by fickle
emotions. That's totally right. However, if you don't have a _fundamental,
long-term_ passion for what you're doing, then you'll definitely have serious
troubles. If the author doesn't like filling spreadsheets, that's fine. I
don't like it either. However he cannot plainly declare that everybody who
says he/she likes it to be insane. This is quite hilarious.

Of course, "interest" and “passion” in most cases are actually brought about
by consistent devotion and hard work in the first place. Then a positive
feedback loop is formed. That’s true. You can’t expect most people to “love”
what he/she does without he/she mastering it and deriving joy from it first.
However if you just _choronically_ feel your job is dull and “soul crushing",
then you should probably seriously consider seeking something else to do. That
is totally different from admitting that cake is more seducive than broccoli,
but just rationally and correctly deciding to eat broccoli for the sake of
health. In the latter case, the problem is that our currently technology
pretty much doesn't allow you to enjoy a cake-flavored broccoli. So _you 've
got no rational choice but to eat broccoli_. However in the case of jobs,
you're a free person. If you really can't like a job even after you've learned
to do it systematically and with discipline, just change one which you have
more passion for. There's definitely no problem to it.

I generally understand what the author is trying to emphasize here. I am
probably just being a bit picky and feel he didn’t employ the appropriate
words/example in this place.

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bbody
Very good article. I'd like to add that motivational posters and nice one-
liners from famous people are nice for a nice fuzzy feeling but ultimately
doesn't do that much for me.

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amativos
This is very true. I realized this a few weeks ago myself. I've seen a video
on youtube where a guy talks about discipline being greater than motivation -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMnMp-d5pKs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMnMp-d5pKs)

I like the idea when he talks about 'becoming a machine', that attitude can
help in many situations.

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neals
I disciplined myself by hiring an intern to come and work at my home office 3
days a week. This required me to get up early and work.

------
kazinator
If you want to accomplish something, what you need is discipline and
motivation to be one and the same, or at least so interrelated that they are
inseparable.

To others it looks like you have discipline, because they can't imagine anyone
working so hard at something. But to you, it's just what you love.

------
brosky117
"Because real life in the real world occasionally requires people do things
that nobody in their right mind can be massively enthusiastic about,
'motivation' runs into the insurmountable obstacle of trying to elicit
enthusiasm for things that objectively do not merit it."

------
eoincathal
This book has been a big help for me: [http://www.amazon.com/Flourishing-
Maureen-Gaffney/dp/1844882...](http://www.amazon.com/Flourishing-Maureen-
Gaffney/dp/1844882721)

A long read, but worth it and something I return to regularly.

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Herodion
Discipline is not really a conscious choice since you can enhance it through
medication. So if you have the right makeup then you don't need motivation to
do things while others can get roughly the same effect by taking Ritalin.

~~~
matt4077
"A choice", i. e. free will, and something that can be changed via medication
aren't mutually exclusive. I'd think most people would agree that getting up
early is somewhat in your control, but it gets a lot easier if you have an
energy drink at 4am.

There's the theory (see the book by Baumeister) that willpower is like a
muscle. It can both get tired and be trained. So the right mindset might not
be "I will be disciplined today" – because you will fail and feel bad about it
as you would fail if you just decided to lift that huge boulder. But if you
chose to expend your willpower on something small but challenging, you may be
able to train it and, after a while, be able to lift that heavy boulder.

~~~
Herodion
Yes, I was a bit too simplistic in my post. But the point is that a person who
builds discipline like a girl builds muscle will be out of the competition no
matter what he does. In such cases it is better to focus on other things to
circumvent the shortage of discipline, such as finding more motivation etc, in
the same way as girls shouldn't do jobs where they have to lift heavy objects.

------
doctorstupid
Let actions determine mood, and not rely on mood to determine one's actions.

------
twirkman
A simple todo list is still the best way to get things done. Writing things
down helps you commit, and crossing them off is unusually rewarding.

Try making a list today before psychoanalyzing yourself.

------
pnathan
Motivation gets you interested and starting, discipline keeps you going and
improving, then motivation provides reasons to not quit.

note that this is not reducible, there's a unbreakable link.

------
Bahamut
There is a popular refrain touted by the Marine Corps: "Motivated &
dedicated". Both are equally important in accomplishing a task, especially
difficult ones.

------
bipple
Remain loyal to reinventing the wheel, if you can stay on that track to fuck
the moon and go for the portal, and keep your motivation, you'll be discipline

------
wedesoft
Yes, to delay gratification is a fundamental human skill.

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ThrustVectoring
The short version of the advice: build an identity as a disciplined and
conscientious person, and use that to motivate you.

This is both useful and dangerous. Useful, because it makes doing work feel
like accomplishing goals. Dangerous, because it makes doing work feel like
accomplishing goals.

If what you care about is being diligent, then _any_ work will fill in. An
hour of sending out job applications feels just as "disciplined" if you send
out three instead of twenty.

Make sure your work is actually accomplishing your real goals, and then put
the work in.

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zo1
I got motivated and working before I finished the last quarter of the article.
I'll edit this post with more details later; off to work.

------
jkot
Discipline costs energy to maintain. What you need is effortless routine.

------
naringas
and what about inspiration?

~~~
jacquesm
Inspiration is the spark, motivation is the challenge, discipline is the
engine.

~~~
Tepix
Sounds like motivation is optional ;-)

~~~
radisb
How about this: Inspiration is the spark, motivation is the fuel, discipline
is the engine. :)

If you run out of fuel, the engine cant help you find more. That's why I think
the OP is somewhat wrong.

------
matdrewin
Motivation is what gets you started. Discipline is what keeps you going.

~~~
hdante
The author argues that discipline is what gets you started and motivation is
what keeps you going.

~~~
dragonwriter
> The author argues that discipline is what gets you started and motivation is
> what keeps you going.

I don't see that argument anywhere in the article -- it seems mostly to be
that motivation and discipline serve the same purpose, but discipline is more
reliable and better.

But then, I don't see the original article as being worth the electrons used
to transmit it, its a rant that neither seems to have any grounding nor seems
to have any correspondence with my experience.

I'd say the idea that motivation being very important in getting something
started and both motivation _and_ discipline playing important roles in
keeping going is true.

~~~
hdante
I'm afraid that trying to squeeze the text on the analogy made me distort the
message. What I meant is in this paragraph:

"The point is to cut the link between feelings and actions, and do it anyway.
You get to feel good and buzzed and energetic and eager afterwards."

So, discipline will kick things off and later you'll have the feelings that
should have been generated by motivation.

------
dimovich
Discipline is the protocol, action is the data.

------
dschiptsov
Motivation != bullshitting yourself.

Motivations is a feeling of a dissonance, of a lack of quality. It is a feel
of abused "artistic sense".

Read some classic about Motorcycle Maintenance.)

btw, "artistic sense" works the same way as "hard-wired empathy" does - via
evolved "machinery" in a brain.

