
Al-Jazari - kdavis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jazari
======
walterbell
Can anyone recommend books on the cross-cultural history of mathematics? I've
found these:

1) Georges Ifrah, "Universal History of Numbers",
[http://www.amazon.com/Universal-History-Numbers-
Prehistory-I...](http://www.amazon.com/Universal-History-Numbers-Prehistory-
Invention/dp/0471375683/)

 _" the first complete account of the invention and evolution of numbers the
world over ... Dubbed the "Indiana Jones of numbers," Georges Ifrah traveled
all over the world for ten years to uncover the little-known details of this
amazing story. From India to China, and from Egypt to Chile, Ifrah talked to
mathematicians, historians, archaeologists, and philosophers."_

2) Paul Calter, "Squaring the Circle: Geometry in Art & Architecture",
[http://www.amazon.com/Squaring-Circle-Geometry-Art-
Architect...](http://www.amazon.com/Squaring-Circle-Geometry-Art-
Architecture/dp/0470412127/)

 _" the combination of the subject knowledge of design, architecture, art,
geometry, philospohy, music theory, and mathematics ... Calter includes the
basic lessons and explanations of a regular Geometry course in his book, but
then he interweaves an integrated classical curriculum (based on deductive
reasoning)"_

~~~
JonnieCache
You'd certainly find something to interest you in the _Ascent Of Man_
documentary series, although it covers many other areas.

Cosmos was based on it. Potentially the greatest television programme ever
IMO.

~~~
walterbell
Thanks for the pointer. _Civilization_ looks good too.

------
Nux
The Islamic Golden Age is pretty fantastic, not the first time I heard about
it and usually a cause of pride among my muslim friends (and for good reason).

Too bad we're witnessing the Islamic Dark Ages right now.

~~~
otakucode
To use strokes so broad that any historian would like to harm me... what
happened was basically that the Islamic world came up against the Crusades,
and with Catholics murdering them with terrible savagery, they decided to seal
themselves off from the world. And in that seclusion they missed out on the
most important development in human history - The Enlightenment. Possible the
greatest achievement of The Enlightenment was driving a wedge between religion
belief and beliefs about the material world. Prior to The Enlightenment, these
two things were the same thing - a concept which is VERY difficult for people
from post-Enlightenment cultures to understand. Seeing gravity as an
expression of a gods will? Thinking it sensible to look for religious
explanations to solve mechanical problems? No belief in an afterlife, but
belief that the material world was a thing skin over the supernatural world
which actually controlled everything? These things just don't make sense to
post-Enlightenment folks.

Those ideas are absolutely and totally required to support the idea of
coexistence of peoples of different faiths. Otherwise, religious ideas about
eternity and salvation trump any concerns. There is nothing which can outweigh
the importance of eternity. And in their isolation, concerns for eternity (and
self preservation) consumed the Islamic world. The division between modern
'moderate' Islamists and 'fundamentalist' Islamists is this exact divide
solved by The Enlightenment.

And the outcome is by no means a foregone conclusion. People are going to have
to choose to believe that their religious beliefs are "just religious" and
have no serious relevance to the material world (the exact notion their
religion decries as the ultimate heresy) and join the modern world... or cling
to their pre-Enlightenment system and be exterminated through violence by the
rest of the world. Coexistence with pre-Enlightenment people in a world where
technology gives individuals so much power of different kinds simply is not
possible.

~~~
4891
The Enlightenment is a direct consequence of the Protestant Reformation that
preceded it a few centuries prior. The key ideas of Protestantism was that
faith should be a) based on reason and b) involve a direct communion with God,
without intervening priests, ritual or hierarchy.

If this sounds appealing to you, you are basically a Protestant, possibly a
post-God Protestant aka "atheist"/"agnostic"/"secular". In Catholicism, as
with most religions, God (or gods or spirit) is intertwined with every aspect
of life. The idea that religion is purely about _beliefs_ is a Protestant idea
- for most people, their religion is about community, ritual, and accessing
deep emotions or altered states of consciousness. Protestantism rejected most
of this in favour of a purely 'rational' faith, from where it's baby steps
towards giving up faith entirely in favour of pure reason. (Evidence: atheism
flourished in the traditionally Protestant countries of Northern Europe and
the Anglosphere).

"People are going to have to choose to believe that their religious beliefs
are "just religious" and have no serious relevance to the material world (the
exact notion their religion decries as the ultimate heresy) and join the
modern world"

Has no relevance to the material world === "not real"; in other words, people
are going to have to give up their religions.

"Those ideas are absolutely and totally required to support the idea of
coexistence of peoples of different faiths."

I.e., for people of different faiths to co-exist they have to give up their
faiths (in favour of 'secularism' or 'moderate-ism' aka Protestantism).

Much more on this idea here:
[http://unqualifiedreservations.wordpress.com/2007/09/26/how-...](http://unqualifiedreservations.wordpress.com/2007/09/26/how-
dawkins-got-pwned-part-1/)

Related point: the West has 'Protestant-ised' several world faiths (in fact
the concept of 'world religion' is arguably the creation of 19th century
Protestant missionaries and scholars).

e.g. Buddhism: [http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/protestant-
buddh...](http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/protestant-buddhism/)

And Hinduism: [http://mitrailleuse.net/2014/08/08/the-westernization-of-
hin...](http://mitrailleuse.net/2014/08/08/the-westernization-of-hinduism-and-
its-alienating-consequences/)

~~~
k-mcgrady
When you talk about protestantism what exactly are you referring to? There are
many, many variations/denominations. Some are rational like you describe,
others are nuts. Same goes for any religion and even the people within a
religion. There is a broad spectrum of catholics. Some rational, some nuts.

In my experience people of protestant denominations tend to be more
irrational/faith focussed than catholics who tend to question more. An example
is that in my country the people trying to prevent gay marriage are protestant
and believe homosexuality an abomination (because of bible teachings) whereas
the catholics (and some more rational protestants) want to legalise it
(obviously not priests/bishops etc. but the politicians involved in the
decision making).

I guess my point is that when it comes to religion every single person has
slightly different beliefs or puts slightly more emphasis on some beliefs over
others.

~~~
julie1
He is talking about lutherianism and calvinism (scnadinavia, north germany,
early «pilgrims»).

And this is an essay about capitalism and protestantism that can be paradoxal
(how believing in predestination makes you fight against the odds).
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Sp...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism)

------
why-el
Of equal importance to HN readers is work by both Ibn Khaldun [1] and Ibn
Rushd (Latinized as Averroes) [2]. There are more accessible to Western
readers, as both were champions of Aristotelian (analytic) philosophy. Ibn
Khaldun is rightly being labeled by some as the founder of systematic
sociology.

One of the great Muslim intellectual rivalries was the one between Averros and
Al Ghazali [3], one that I won't spoil for anyone but it's a sublime look into
efforts by Averroes to inject pure rationality and reason into discussions of
the theological.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun)
[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes)
[3] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-
Ghazali)

------
vdfs
The Banū Mūsā brothers
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban%C5%AB_M%C5%ABs%C4%81](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban%C5%AB_M%C5%ABs%C4%81)

"The most popular of their publications was the Kitāb al-Ḥiyal (The Tricks
Book), which was mostly the work of Aḥmad, the middle brother, was a book
filled with one hundred mechanical devices. There were some real practical
inventions in the book including a lamp that would mechanically dim,
alternating fountains, and a clamshell grab. Eighty of these devices were
described as "trick vessels" that showed a real mastery of mechanics, with a
real focus on the use of light pressure. Some of the devices seem to be
replications of earlier Greek works, but the rest were much more advanced than
what the Greeks had done."

~~~
walterbell
We need vcs/git fork graphs for historical inventions and improvements,
including tracking of multiple "upstream" candidates when origins are
disputed. HN members in different cultures could help curate the dependency
graphs on github.

Related: Project Gitenberg,
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8214564](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8214564)

------
bbayer
There are numerous number of Muslim scientists who contributes a lot to modern
mathematics.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%E1%B8%A5ammad_ibn_M%C5%ABs%C...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%E1%B8%A5ammad_ibn_M%C5%ABs%C4%81_al-
Khw%C4%81rizm%C4%AB)

------
oblio
Please continue posting such links. I know some people would like only links
about "hacking" (i.e. coding), but such articles really make me understand the
"we are standing on the shoulders of giants" quote.

Especially about lesser advertised cultures such as the Islamic one.

~~~
crystaln
I highly recommend picking up a book covering the history of invention and
thought rather than waiting for such posts to hit meme status at random
moments on HN.

~~~
oblio
Who said that I don't read those? Your reply is a bit condescending. The
stages of learning include total ignorance, when you don't know that you don't
know something (or that the thing you don't know would interest you). We're
social animals for several reasons - one of them is that we can teach each
other. HN is quite a knowledgeable community, so the advice/pointers are in
general more useful than just random Google searches or sifting through Amazon
reviews, for example.

------
w1ntermute
What alphabet is used for the letters in the diagrams[0]? It's not Arabic, and
it looks sort of like Greek (or maybe Phoenician), but different.

0\. Such as this one: [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Al-
jazari...](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Al-
jazari_water_device.jpg)

~~~
KhalilK
It is Arabic, Islamic calligraphy[0] can be confusing, I'll reckon that.

0\.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calligraphy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calligraphy)

~~~
peteretep
He's asking about the symbols against the diagram itself, not the preface.

------
vdfs
In the gold old days, Tricks science was what we know now as Mechanics. This
was a smart naming for this new science field, so people won't link it with
Magic, which is forbidden in Islam.

------
rikacomet
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna)

The first to use Cannula to help a choking patient. Also contributed to the
foundation of Unani (Greek-Arab) Medicine system.

~~~
davidgerard
Avicenna is awesome, the equivalent of the greatest of the ancient Greeks. His
name comes up these days mostly courtesy alternative medicine woo pushers,
which is way worse than he deserves.

------
selimthegrim
For some reason, this guy never gets any love.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-
Shatir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Shatir)

~~~
rikacomet
Yes, I know of him due to Tusi Couple, which I briefly read about when I was
going through Copernicus's work.

~~~
selimthegrim
Oldie but goodie:
[http://people.sc.fsu.edu/~dduke/models.htm](http://people.sc.fsu.edu/~dduke/models.htm)

The Tusi couple is like halfway down and the link right above it allows you to
compare and contrast models.

------
tzs
Interesting coincidence (?)...right now (6 PM PDT), "History 2" channel is
showing season 3, episode 2 of "Ancient Discoveries", "Machines of the East":
"Examining the inventions of Arab engineer Al-Jazari, who lived in what is now
modern Turkey in the 13th century, whose designs included a water clock and a
variety of geared mechanisms".

------
vdfs
Ibn Tufail the writer of "Hayy ibn Yaqdhan", the first Arabic novel
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayy_ibn_Yaqdhan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayy_ibn_Yaqdhan)

"Hayy ibn Yaqdhan had a significant influence on Arabic literature, Persian
literature, and European literature, and went on to become an influential
best-seller throughout Western Europe in the 17th and 18th centuries. The work
also had a "profound influence" on both Islamic philosophy and modern Western
philosophy. It became "one of the most important books that heralded the
Scientific Revolution" and European Enlightenment, and the thoughts expressed
in the novel can be found "in different variations and to different degrees in
the books of Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, Isaac Newton, and Immanuel
Kant."George Sarton considered the novel "one of the most original books of
the Middle Ages."

------
michaelsbradley
The medieval polymaths were a fascinating bunch! Hildegard of Bingen[1] was a
contemporary of al-Jazari, and one of the most influential European women of
the late Middles Ages.

In 2012, Pope Benedict XVI named her a Doctor of the Church[2] – a title given
by the Catholic Church to only 35 people over the past 2,000 years!

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen)

[&] [http://www.hildegard-society.org/p/academic-
sources.html](http://www.hildegard-society.org/p/academic-sources.html)

[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_the_Church](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_the_Church)

~~~
acqq
But I don't see that she did any engineering, which is why al-Jazari is
potentially interesting.

Regarding al-Jazari, the question is only how significant he really was,
compared to the centuries older Greek engineers like those that produced, for
example,
[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism)

~~~
MisterBastahrd
Importance is a matter of influence, I suppose. I'm sure there have been
repeat discoveries in the past which have been lost to the ages due to a
variety of factors. The ones that remained a part of stable civilizations are
the ones we remember.

~~~
acqq
I am however suggesting that the Arabs and Turks haven't actually reinvented
the art of engineering which was known in the antique times as they obviously
invaded the exact places where that art was already present and that there
must be some of them that found that art interesting who are the ones who
preserved it in the times of religious fanaticism and destruction.

------
tzs
Another interesting Arab from that general period is Ahmad al-Tifashi [1]. He
was a poet, writer, and anthologist, mainly known for his anthology "Promenade
of the Hearts" of poetry, jokes, and anecdotes of an erotic nature or about
sexual practices.

An English translation of the gay chapters is available: "The Delight of
Hearts: Or What You Will Not Find in Any Book" [2]. I've got it, and it is an
amusing, entertaining, and eye-opening read.

For a very very long time, I've had a little puzzle on my website. Someone is
caught with the following items:

    
    
       1. A large needle and thread
       2. A roll of paper
       3. Three small pebbles
       4. A small bag of fine-grained dust
       5. A small empty waterskin
       6. A pair of scissors
       7. A canteen full of cream
       8. A fur cap
       9. A purse full of counterfeit coins
       10. A raw egg
    

What are they planning?

For the first time, I will give a hint: the answer is in "The Delight of
Hearts".

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_al-
Tifashi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_al-Tifashi)

[2] [http://www.amazon.com/The-Delight-Hearts-What-
Will/dp/094056...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Delight-Hearts-What-
Will/dp/0940567091)

~~~
selimthegrim
In the same vein, Abu Nuwas did a lot more than clown around for Harun al-
Rashid in the Arabian Nights

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Nuwas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Nuwas)

------
arjn
Interesting, thanks for posting. I new about semi-automatons created for the
Turkish rulers for entertainment but not about Al Jazari.

I would like to add that the Persian, Arab and Turkish empires benefited
greatly from Chinese, Indian, Roman and Greek math, technology and science
that had been developed much earlier. This frequently gets glossed over or
completely ignored.

~~~
nraf
I wouldn't say it gets completely ignored. Pretty much everything I read about
the subjects mentions how the Muslims translated into Arabic, expanded upon,
corrected and were influenced by the work of earlier cultures.

------
Zaheer
For the curious, book available at: [http://www.scribd.com/doc/200133822/The-
Book-of-Knowledge-of...](http://www.scribd.com/doc/200133822/The-Book-of-
Knowledge-of-Ingenious-Mechanical-Devices)

------
peteretep
Why does it lead by describing him as a Muslim? I don't see anything else in
the article that refers to that - he's not noted as a Imam or a Koran scholar
or anything similar. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply say he was from an
area that today is Turkey?

~~~
infinitone
Not sure what Turkey has to do with him. But it makes sense to attribute
someone to country/empire at the time he lived in. Which is the Islamic
Empire. So saying he was Muslim, is as much as saying a scientist today
residing in the US is American.

Contrary to popular western belief, Islam is one of the main enablers for
these great scientists... as many were "influenced by the Quranic injunctions
and hadiths, such as "the ink of a scholar is more holy than the blood of a
martyr," that stressed the value of knowledge.'" But more than that, is the
amount of government funding and salaries these guys would get (in some cases,
what would amount to today's pro athletes').
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age)

------
dmix
There is a 13min video with Sir Ben Kingsley as Al-Jazari on Youtube "1001
Inventions and The Library of Secrets":

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZDe9DCx7Wk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZDe9DCx7Wk)

------
projectramo
By this point, most threads on anything vaguely arab have descended into flame
wars and what not. I can't believe Hacker News has managed to keep the
discussion (over 87%) civil. I am in awe.

------
KhalilK
I remember learning all about Al Jazari (and all of the other Muslim
scientists, philosophers and doctors at that time) back in primary school. As
an Arab I can't help but feel both proud, of such achievements, and yet so
sad, because of the state of decline the Islamic contribution to the
scientific advancement has known.

~~~
nayefc
Once we replace "Islamic contribution" with "Arab contribution", we will move
forward.

~~~
nraf
This isn't a very fair or accurate statement given that many of the greatest
scholars of Islam weren't Arab (a large number were Persian for example).
There were multiple centres of scientific endeavor throughout Islamic history
including (but not limited to) Baghdad, Damascus, Al-Andalus (i.e. Islamic
Spain) and Africa.

Much of the Islamic scholarship at the time revolved around gaining a greater
understanding of the creation of God as a means to draw nearer to God.

In addition a lot of scholars in the major Islamic centres weren't even
Muslim. For example, the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula (welcomed by the
local Jewish population) ushered in a Jewish Golden Age which produced
Maimonides, one of the greatest Jewish scholars of the time.

~~~
nayefc
Right, a Muslim scholar in Persia could be seen as a Persian scholar or a
Muslim scholar. However, Arabs often end up looking at their contributions as
Islamic Contributions, or rather Arab-Islamic dismissing non-Muslim Arabs. To
your point, there were many non-Muslim Arab scholars.

~~~
nraf
My point isn't that there are many non-Muslim Arab scholars, it's that a lot
of the greatest Muslim scholars at the time weren't actually of Arab origin.
e.g. Ibn Sina and Al-Ghazali were both of Persian origin (although the lingua
franca was Arabic).

Islam was the catalyst of change in the 7th century, I don't see how that
could be denied. Yes, it was predominately Arabs that brought it outside the
Peninsula but the scholarly achievements weren't Arab achievements, because,
again, many of the scholars weren't Arabs. Heck, the most important book in
Sunni Islam after the Qur'an was compiled by al-Bukhari, a non-Arab from
Bukhara in modern-day Afghanistan.

If you look into it, Islamic scholarship didn't really kick off until the
Abbasid Dynasty was established. Non-Arabs played a large role in allowing the
Abbasids to come into power in the first place.

The jizya (tax on non-Muslims) was a higher fee than the zakat (religious tax
on Muslims). As more and more non-Arabs started to embrace Islam, the Umayyads
were getting less and less tax revenue because the new Muslims were playing
zakat instead of jizya.

As such, they stated (against the laws of Islam) that non-Arab converts to
Islam still need to pay the same amount as they were paying before they
embraced Islam. Naturally, this led to a lot of resentment amongst the new
non-Arab Muslims who would later support the Abbasid rebellion against the
Umayyads.

The Abbasids would go on to employ many non-Arabs, especially Persians, into
high positions in government.

~~~
Jayd2014
"As such, they stated (against the laws of Islam) that non-Arab converts to
Islam still need to pay the same amount as they were paying before they
embraced Islam. Naturally, this led to a lot of resentment amongst the new
non-Arab Muslims who would later support the Abbasid rebellion against the
Umayyads."

First the Jizya was not a Tax payed because they weren't Muslims. It was payed
for everyone who didn't participate in Islamic military. Think of it like a
Latino living in the US and paying a fee (passport fees, green card fees..etc)
for not participating in US military. Non-Muslim benefited from the same as
Muslims in terms of public social help. Secondly, Zakat can be sometimes
higher than the Tax paid by non-Muslims. Depending on how much you own.

~~~
nraf
The jizya was payable by non-Muslims dhimmis living in an Islamic state. I
don't know of any requirements that had to do with participating in the
military, as there were non-Muslims citizens who fought alongside the Muslims
(e.g. Christians battling in the Ottoman armies). The only thing I've heard is
that the jizya is to refunded if the Muslims fail to defend the non-Muslims
paying jizya if they're attacked. Not sure how accurate that is though.

------
molixiaoge
great

