
Microsoft launches Windows 10 on ARM - OberstKrueger
https://www.anandtech.com/show/12119/microsoft-launches-windows-10-on-arm-always-connected-pcs
======
Nullabillity
From Microsoft's Secure Boot OEM policy[0]:

> The firmware setup shall indicate if Secure Boot is turned on, and if it is
> operated in Standard or Custom Mode. The firmware setup must provide an
> option to return from Custom to Standard Mode which restores the factory
> defaults. On an ARM system, it is forbidden to enable Custom Mode. Only
> Standard Mode may be enabled.

[0]: [https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-
hardware/design/com...](https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-
hardware/design/compatibility/systems#systemfundamentalsfirmwareuefisecureboot)

~~~
kevin_b_er
Translation: The ARM "computers" will only run software Microsoft blesses. Can
we call it a computer anymore? It is more like a tablet when Microsoft demands
digital restrictions management on the software that runs on the device.

~~~
kogepathic
_> Translation: The ARM "computers" will only run software Microsoft blesses.
Can we call it a computer anymore?_

Why don't people take Apple to task for doing the same thing? You can't take
an iPad and install Linux on it, or Windows for ARM. You're locked into
running iOS. Apple doesn't even allow downgrading iOS.

Same with Android devices that come with a locked bootloader. You can't
install anything other OS version/flavour than what the manufacturer dictates.

Yes, it's unfortunate that Microsoft has this policy, but why is it that
people only complain loudly about locked bootloaders when it comes to
Microsoft products?

Apply the same standard to Apple and Android products with locked bootloaders.
Microsoft isn't the first one to do this, and they won't ship nearly as many
devices as other manufacturers who lock down the boot process.

~~~
alanfranzoni
The op is complaining about calling 'computer' rather than 'tablet' this ms
product. The ipad and iphones and android phones are tablet and phones, not
computers.

~~~
nobodyshere
They are all technically still 'computers'. Their form factor doesn't change
that.

~~~
alanfranzoni
This has little to do with the 'technical' meaning of the term.

The big _practical_'distinction' nowadays between a 'proper computer' and a
'tablet/phone/etc' is between being open for modification, creation and
alteration by the user, or to be a walled garden where only the manufacturer
chooses what can be done and installed.

The Ipad Pro may be powerful as a computer, but we think about it as a tablet
because it uses IOS and its walled garden.

The OP is complaining that MS is trying to push its new product into the
computer space even tough it's locked down via Windows 10S. It's not true that
nobody 'takes on Apple about this' \- it's simply that Apple does NOT do that
on its COMPUTERS (i.e. the Mac line).

------
LeoPanthera
The difference between this and Windows RT is that this will emulate an x86
chip to allow you to run apps compiled for Intel.

~~~
adamjcook
I wonder how Microsoft eventually dealt with this:
[https://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2017/06/intel...](https://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2017/06/intel-fires-warning-shots-at-microsoft-
claims-x86-emulation-is-a-patent-minefield/)

Intel seemed to indicate at the time that it was really interested in any
licensing around the x86 ISA.

~~~
Joeri
As far as I understand, they don't emulate the x86 instruction set, but
instead cross-compile it to ARM native instructions. That means that whatever
implementation details are behind the patented x86 instructions are
irrelevant, since there is no emulation of those instructions, they are just
replaced by equivalent ARM instructions. Intel will probably still sue, but I
expect them to settle out of court.

[http://www.techradar.com/news/a-closer-look-at-
windows-10-s-...](http://www.techradar.com/news/a-closer-look-at-
windows-10-s-windows-10-on-arm-and-windows-10-iot)

~~~
rossy
Isn't that equivalent to emulating it? Like emulators for video game systems
that have both an interpreter and a JIT recompiler, the latter is just an
optimization of the former. They both must interpret the instruction set of
the target and run equivalent instructions on the host.

~~~
beagle3
Patents have a funny feature, in that they (are supposed to) apply to a
specific implementation. So "equivalent effect" is not enough for patent
violation in the general case.

------
ChuckMcM
I hope and expect Apple to watch this closely. Playing with the iOS 11 on an
iPad pro 10.5 suggests a bit what a Macbook Air might look like in 'appliance'
mode with one of their customized ARM processors.

The really interesting bit however is whether or not ARM notebook computers
can become a 'thing' for real. There have been a couple of runs at it by
people without the resources to do something competitive with the thin and
light laptops of today, doing it "for real" has always seemed a bit out of
reach.

It becomes more and more clear to me that something like a Chromebook type OS
and a walled garden app store is a really attractive proposition for people
who don't do development on their machines.

~~~
tomaskafka
Try RDPing from iPad to Windows 10, for me it feels amazing, and I'd gladly
buy iPad-like device with Windows 10 for working on the road.

~~~
toomanybeersies
Aren't you just describing literally the Microsoft Surface?

~~~
ChuckMcM
I've got both a Surface Pro and an iPad pro and it would be a Surface with an
ARM processor, sort of. The sort of comes from the fact that the windows
resources are remote in the iPad case which allows for faster response and
more media/storage on the remote machine. The Surface Pro doesn't last quite
as long on battery power as the iPad does and it can be constrained in its
storage space (I've got an additional 256MB SD card plugged into mine and its
still tight).

But the interesting thing for me are the two approaches to window dynamics.
The Surface Pro is difficult to operate with a finger, ok with the stylus.

------
waytogo
Something I wanted from Apple.

First time Microsoft seems to be more focused than Apple (which works on semi-
innovations like touchbars).

~~~
kosinus
I expect Apple would either switch entirely, or not. But fracturing the
desktop doesn’t seem like something they’d do. ARM would have to be the clear
path forward.

~~~
cm2187
Mostly I don't have the feeling they want to invest more into MacOS. I feel
they would much rather push everyone into iOS, a locked down platform where
they have full control on what people can do or not and monetize every single
step (whether that is realistic or not).

------
dest
So, as Windows will be available on ARM, we will have more laptops with ARM,
more than just Chromebooks. This seems like a win for users.

~~~
greenhouse_gas
But with a locked bootloader, so not necessarily

~~~
neilalexander
This might be a non-issue. The only people who are likely to care about
installing alternative operating systems are power users, and power users may
still prefer to buy more powerful Intel systems.

~~~
yndoendo
As a power user, I'm still looking for a good ARM battery efficient 2-in-1 to
use as a light laptop and tablet that runs Linux. Not to use as a production
machine but for content consumption. Being able to continually read a book or
article while coding or performing a task on production machine would be
better then having to swap between the two on one computer. Wouldn't choose
Intel for that.

~~~
cwyers
Having more shipping ARM devices gets you closer to that, even if these
devices have a locked bootloader. The more robust the ecosystem around ARM
with UEFI gets, the more the parts become commodity and if there's enough
demand, someone will start shipping them with Linux or unlocked bootloaders.

(Hate UEFI all you want, but standardizing on something is much better than
the Android world where every SoC requires a custom bootloader and if the
manufacturer doesn't support the kernel you want to run, tough. Having a
standardized platform to run on means you can have a Linux distribution that
supports running on any device that supports the standard.)

------
StreamBright
I wish they launched an OS that has bare minimum interruption with things I do
not care about. I seriously do not need anything from an OS than just a super
lightweight interface to interact with applications and filesystems. Why is it
so hard?

The mail.app vs outlook is a great example of useful and useless UI. Both app
does the same.

~~~
mlazos
I’ve seen firsthand the amount of work that goes into building a complex,
scalable system and the problem with your statements are that 1) It’s hard to
measure at scale what each of your users cares about. This is especially true
with “lightweight” interfaces - simpler UI means you have to carefully decide
what you want to expose. 2) Generally the older software is, the more bloated
it becomes - this is inescapable. The only real solution to this problem is
full rewrites which rarely happen because they’re so expensive and time-
consuming. By the time you ship an OS it might already have some bloat. 3)
People like what they are used to. Remember the backlash with the Metro
interface? Windows users would never get behind a major change to the Windows
UI - everyone has been using it for almost 20 years now.

~~~
FollowSteph3
Especially 1). So many different people view what is an MVP differently,
especially for an OS.

------
throwaway613834
Does anyone know if/when Windows 10's x86-on-ARM thing might come out for
_phone(s)_? I don't really care for the emulation on laptops but I need to
upgrade my phone and this is a factor.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Combined with the Continuum thing for Windows Phone
([https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/windows/Continuum](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/Continuum)) this
would be incredible. You could use your phone as a desktop replacement.

Unfortunately, it seems like Microsoft has given up on Windows Phone already.

~~~
throwaway613834
I thought it was _supposed_ to be for phones. That's what I read last year: _"
I'm hearing this Cobalt [x86-on-ARM] technology is aimed at phone and possibly
tablet/desktop devices."_ [1] I'm confused when it became a laptop thing at
all.

[1] [http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-x86-on-
arm64-emulati...](http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-x86-on-
arm64-emulation-a-windows-10-redstone-3-fall-2017-deliverable/)

~~~
WorldMaker
It's always been something of a laptop thing? Microsoft since Windows 8 has
made it somewhat clear they think Windows needs a strong presence on ARM
tablets to A) avoid Intel hegemony, B) remain competitive with the iPad in
that space. "It doesn't run any of my apps," was perhaps the biggest complaint
about Windows 8 ARM tablets, so it makes sense that x86-on-ARM was a big
strategy push before the next attempt.

Beyond that, rumor has it that Microsoft hopes selling tablets/laptops with
ARM will open the Windows ARM space enough in the meantime while the Windows
team is finishing the next version of key Windows shell components (nicknamed
the "Composable Shell" or CShell), which would be make the Continuum
experience for say Phones stronger because instead of switching entirely
different shell applications (start menu, taskbar, et al) between form
factors, the same applications responsively adapt themselves.

~~~
throwaway613834
I'm confused, I just quoted an article from 2016 saying it was about phones
and possibly tablets/desktops, and you say it's always been a laptop thing?
Anything you can quote from 2016 to that effect?

~~~
WorldMaker
The Verge's article from 2016 says "laptops are expected to be the first
devices", and brings up Windows RT as the predecessor, just as I mentioned it:

[https://www.theverge.com/2016/12/7/13866936/microsoft-
window...](https://www.theverge.com/2016/12/7/13866936/microsoft-
windows-10-arm-desktop-apps-support-qualcomm)

------
TekMol
Do the devices that it runs on make good linux machines?

I would love something as light as the Galaxy Tab S2 (Less then 400g!!) that I
can use with Linux and a type cover.

I would be able to work everywhere I go. Because carrying around 400g with me
all the time would be worth it.

~~~
Raphael
You can run Linux on Chromebooks.

~~~
TekMol
There is a 400g chromebook?

------
akhilcacharya
The 24-hour, always connected battery life dream may be a reality by this time
next year.

------
stevefan1999
I'm not a fan of ARM CPU but I'm quite curious about the x86 emulation on
Windows 10 ARM platform, does it run like qemu-user-static-x86 just like how
Wine did? (while all x86 syscall/WinAPIs have direct replacement on Windows 10
ARM)

Should someone generously share some articles, I’d really appreciate that
help.

------
ngsayjoe
I thought Intel threatened to sue if Windows run x86 apps with Intel emulation
on ARM?

So QCOM is being sued right and left (Apple, Intel, and governments all over
the world)?

~~~
microcolonel
> _So QCOM is being sued right and left (Apple, Intel, and governments all
> over the world)?_

For what it's worth, if you do competitive business like Qualcomm does, there
will most likely be at least one pending lawsuit against you at any given
time.

------
paraxion
So can I dust off my Surface RT that's effectively a paperweight?

------
TYPE_FASTER
It will be interesting to see if this ends up in the industrial/rugged
handheld market, or if Microsoft has conceded that market to Android for good.

I guess it could be up to the device manufacturers.

------
joelthelion
So what are people going to use this for? Servers? Tablets?

~~~
david-cako
I think Microsoft is just realizing what Apple realized 8 years ago: ARM is
the next x86 for the type of devices that people want to buy.

~~~
jazoom
I think you forgot about Windows RT.

~~~
neilalexander
Windows RT was not a failure because of ARM, or because the hardware was not
capable. Windows RT was a failure because, once again, Microsoft showed that
they are completely incapable of reading the market. They tried to market a
Windows experience to consumers and then did not deliver on the Windows
experience.

~~~
jazoom
You might be replying to the wrong comment. I didn't say anything about
Windows RT being a failure. The only meaning I was trying to convey was that
Microsoft DID try to push an ARM platform many years ago.

------
bhouston
What is the performance on the cross compiled apps? What about directx or
opengl support? Benchmarks please for chrome or ie or Firefox.

~~~
Raphael
Something tells me Edge will have an advantage, at least for awhile.

------
atomicnumber1
With Microsoft partnering with Qualcomm, won't it just increase the monopoly
of Qualcomm? Is it even possible to increase monopoly?

------
TheCoreh
Hopefully this partnership will allow Qualcomm to bring the Snapdragon
performance on par with the Apple CPUs.

~~~
ricw
This is unlikely. Apple's CPU budget for it's devices is likely much higher
than anything Qualcomm's customers are willing to pay (vs the current
snapdragon pricing). Apple's CPUs are very very large and consequently
relatively expensive. As an example, a latest gen snapdragon 835 has 3 billion
transistors, while Apple's A11 has 4.3 billion.

~~~
Symmetry
And those numbers severely understate the difference since, IIRC, a much
larger fraction of Apple's SoC transistor budget is devoted to its application
processors.

EDIT: Found an image. More a simple understatement than a severe one.

[https://wccftech.com/apple-a10-fusion-cores-bigger-than-
comp...](https://wccftech.com/apple-a10-fusion-cores-bigger-than-competition/)

------
molsson
It's obviously not easy by any stretch of the imagination to port something as
complex as Windows to a new platform, but I'm still surprised it took THAT
long to finish this.

~~~
com2kid
Windows has been running on ARM for ages. Windows RT was an early go, but even
before that internal builds of Windows for ARM were kept around.

Windows Phone 8 ran on the Windows 8 kernel, and Windows 10 Mobile ran on the
Win10 kernel.

It seems like the hard part here was doing the seamless emulation of x86 apps.
Writing a production quality general purpose emulator is hard.

~~~
coredog64
It's not like Microsoft doesn't have examples to draw on:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FX!32](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FX!32)

------
alkonaut
Will developers be able to build classic desktop (Win32) ARM applications?

~~~
captainmuon
The code is there in Visual C++, and people could already built native ARM
applications to run on (jailbreaked) Windows RT. But reading between the
lines, it seems that MS will not currently offer that option, but rather
encourage people to write UWP/Modern apps, and emulate x86. MS themselves are
compiling Office natively for ARM (like they did for Windows RT, and like they
do notepad, calc, ...).

I wonder how UWP apps work technically on ARM. I heard apps will be compiled
on the fly to run on ARM. Managed code (C#) just runs on the CLI or can be AOT
compiled. But C++ is also a first-class citizen. Will you ship x86 code that
is emulated/recompiled, or will you ship both x86 and ARM, or some kind of
intermediate representation (like I think you do on iOS)?

------
stonewhite
I'm curious about how that battery life would be like with a linux installed.

Also, I wonder the internals of that x86 emulation, if a linux program can
leverage it?

~~~
mtgx
Linux has supported x86 emulation on ARM chips for many years now, I think
even before Android started supporting x86 chips.

~~~
mjg59
Eh kind of? qemu can be used with binfmt-misc to do CPU emulation while still
passing syscalls to the running kernel, but it's a long way from perfect -
there's various corner cases that cause problems.

------
katastic
From the same people that brought us Windows RT and ARM Surface tablets... got
many of my clients to buy them... and then magically decided "Windows RT and
ARM sucks. We don't support them anymore."

So I'll hold my breathe before recommending ANY of my clients use this.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
Intel lawsuit in 3… 2…

~~~
batrat
Maybe dumb questions:

1\. How can Intel sue MS for emulator, but linux(qemu) can get way with it?

2\. Why MS tries to push the emulator, when they can just port their programs
(already ported to Win RT I think) and provide developers some tools to port
their apps?

~~~
tree_of_item
There are zillions of old Windows programs whose developers are long gone.
They're never getting ported. The only serious way to do this is to
emulate/translate old apps automatically.

~~~
dingo_bat
This is a big difference between os x/iOS and windows/Android. On the apple
platforms developers are expected to keep doing all kinds of things in
response to apples directives. Nobody will do that for windows and Android.

------
xaldir
Good. I still don't want it.

------
cjsuk
Windows RT 2. We know where that went.

------
ateesdalejr
Can't wait to see windows on a RPi soon... If windows even can run on 512
megs.

~~~
wlesieutre
There’s been a trimmed down “IoT” version on RPi for a few years
[https://www.techrepublic.com/article/windows-10-on-the-
raspb...](https://www.techrepublic.com/article/windows-10-on-the-raspberry-pi-
what-you-need-to-know/)

