
Newly Discovered Smallpox Samples - drcode
http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2014/s0708-NIH.html
======
iandanforth
The most impressive part of this for me is that there is international law and
oversight which was immediately brought into play. WHO representatives being
invited to watch the destruction? That is both extremely responsible and
acknowledges an authority outside of the US government. That mindset is far
too rare in this country.

~~~
munificent
> immediately brought into play

Actually, we have no idea how quickly things were brought into play. The
article is carefully worded to note the date when the virus discovery was
_announced_ , not when the vials were actually found.

For all we know, this was could have been bouncing around between departments
for weeks, months, etc.

~~~
aroch
Its unlikely it was bouncing around for long. Both NIH and CDC have long
standing, and rehearsed, plans for the discovery of select agents and toxins,
including dealing with sample discovery in less-than-appropriate containment.
I work with a few select agents and while there's a ton of bureaucracy around
it (Forms in not just triplicate but quadruplicate), that bureaucracy is both
for the safety of everyone and for quick reaction to hazards. For examples,
every log for our BSL-3's is reviewed within a few hours of modification. If a
question comes up, users have 4 hours to respond to them. If they fail to do
so certain containment procedures go into effect.

The entirety of the discovery, initial testing and planning phase likely took
less than 2 days. If there's one thing either organization doesn't fucked
with, it is select agents and toxins.

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Steko
Since the virus survives freezing there's certainly some frozen bodies that
harbor the disease as well. The idea is sort of dismissed in [1] but the CDC
quotes there are more about the prospects for a pandemic then whether the
virus is likely present all over the arctic (etc.) or not.

[1] [http://gizmodo.com/will-smallpox-reemerge-in-siberia-as-
corp...](http://gizmodo.com/will-smallpox-reemerge-in-siberia-as-corpses-thaw-
from-1514969971)

edit:

According to [2] things like tundra smallpox are the reason the US didn't want
to destroy the last lab samples.

[2] [http://www.livescience.com/2403-climate-threat-thawing-
tundr...](http://www.livescience.com/2403-climate-threat-thawing-tundra-
releases-infected-corpses.html)

~~~
weaksauce
They haven't destroyed the last samples. There are official samples in America
and Russia still.

~~~
justin66
Can you provide any references to that effect? I'm pretty sure the closest we
still _officially_ have is a virus that is derived from smallpox, which they
convinced to jump species and infect apes.

Unofficially, well... case in point.

~~~
BoppreH
From TFA:

    
    
      By international agreement, there are two official World 
      Health Organization (WHO)-designated repositories for 
      smallpox: CDC in Atlanta, Georgia and the State Research 
      Centre of Virology and Biotechnology (VECTOR) in Novosibirsk, 
      Russia. The WHO oversees the inspection of these smallpox 
      facilities and conducts periodic reviews to certify the 
      repositories for safety and security.

~~~
justin66
Thanks. It's a little surprising to me since I seem to remember one of Richard
Preston's books ending with VECTOR and CDC destroying their samples (and doing
the species jump to create something that would theoretically infect monkeys
but not people). Perhaps my recollection is incorrect...

I remain amused at how wrath of god people can get with the downvoting. :)

~~~
BoppreH
I can't speak for the others, but I almost downvoted you. And the reason is
simple: the article was an eight paragraph piece, with your remark neatly
answered in the sixth.

People can get a little mad when contested by something refuted in the (short)
required reading.

But you are a little right. There was a big push to destroy all samples, with
USA and Russia fighting to keep them for military reasons.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox_virus_retention_contro...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox_virus_retention_controversy)

------
TrainedMonkey
I think bringing up Biohazard[0], a book about soviet bio warfare experiments
and the culture they were conducted in seems pertinent. In particular it is
illuminating, if not factually accurate, how Soviets covered up accidents at
their bio weapon research facilities. Book paints a grim picture of how this
could have been handled, in light of that I applaud actions taken by NIH and
CDC.

[http://www.amazon.com/Biohazard-Chilling-Largest-
Biological-...](http://www.amazon.com/Biohazard-Chilling-Largest-Biological-
World-Told/dp/0385334966)

~~~
Wingman4l7
I was initially keen to read this, as it appears to be one of the only works
on the topic of the Soviet bio-warfare program. However, the author's
scientific credibility and "authenticity" (for lack of a better term) has been
called into question:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Alibek#Criticism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Alibek#Criticism)

However, there are some Soviet bio-weapon incidents I've read about which were
verified _(by people other than Ken Alibek)_ as having genuinely occurred.

------
geuis
Confused about this part:

"Additional testing of the variola samples is under way to determine if the
material in the vials is viable (i.e., can grow in tissue culture). This
testing could take up to 2 weeks. After completion of this testing, the
samples will be destroyed."

Why not just destroy the samples outright? What's the reason for incubating a
live sample and then destroying it?

~~~
aroch
On discovery (or receipt) of a select agent you always, _always_ , test for
viability. There are a few reasons, a few that rank high on the list: they
want to know how long smallpox can survive in inappropriate storage (too hot,
freeze/thaw, etc); they want to genotype and phenotype this sample for records
in case it shows up else where; viable, unpassaged smallpox is rare.

~~~
geuis
Makes sense. Also, I just realized, is if it's viable was there any
opportunity for exposure.

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robbiet480
Scary to put it lightly. You'd think that we would be more careful with such
things. I could only imagine who actually found the sample, and if they even
realized what it was without Googling. An even worse thought would be if they
were to just throw it in the trash.

~~~
ovi256
I'm pretty sure anyone that speaks a Romance language may recognize 'variola'
as smallpox. I guess the original label used the Latin name. Also, in a CDC
laboratory, I'd bet dollars vs pennies there's already a protocol for handling
"old badly labelled samples" that includes "not opening" and "not misplacing".

~~~
mikecb
It began at the FDA, which doesn't routinely handle substances of this type.
That's why it was transferred to NIH in Bethesda temporarily while the CDC
team came up from Atlanta.

~~~
aroch
Well, no, it began at the NIH. NIH handed the labs over to the FDA, and
apparently missed a vial during the move.

~~~
mikecb
Ahh. Yet still, it was not found at CDC by CDC employees more likely to be
trained to handle highly infectious samples.

------
BoppreH
Just to remind everyone what we are dealing with here:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_smallpox](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_smallpox)

    
    
      During the 20th century, it is estimated that smallpox 
      was responsible for 300–500 million deaths.
    

Half a billion people dead, _after_ a vaccine was discovered. And that was one
century of the 12,000 years it has existed.

That's why I get shivers from the opening of
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox):

    
    
      Smallpox *was* an infectious disease...
    
      [...]
    
      To this day, smallpox is the only human infectious
      disease to have been completely eradicated.

------
markwakeford
Was there not a debate recently on wether to dispose of the last vials of
smallpox because there would be no need to produce a vaccine as the virus had
been eradicated.....

~~~
rdtsc
Not sure where I read it, or heard from someone, but it was about how some
such similar disease (maybe even smallpox) that produces scabs and how someone
found a scab from it in a library manuscript. This is somewhat similar.

~~~
mrbill
Wikipedia: "In March 2004 smallpox scabs were found tucked inside an envelope
in a book on Civil War medicine in Santa Fe, New Mexico. The envelope was
labeled as containing scabs from a vaccination and gave scientists at the
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention an opportunity to study the history
of smallpox vaccination in the U.S."

~~~
moioci
So these scabs would be the product of infection with vaccinia and not
variola, if my understanding is correct.

------
joshdance
Wondering why we are keeping two samples? Is it for future use 'just in case'
or is there some great reason I am missing?

------
noodle
Question for those with knowledge -- would a 60-ish year old sample still be
virulent/communicable/whatever?

~~~
timr
Possible, but not incredibly likely unless it was prepared via freeze-drying
for long-term storage. I wouldn't want to huff it, though.

~~~
tjohns
"They were freeze-dried, intact and sealed, forgotten and packed away in a
cardboard box, officials said."

[http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-
smallpox...](http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-
smallpox-20140708-story.html)

~~~
timr
Yeah, so that's a bit scarier. Lyophilized samples are fairly shelf-stable.
There's a much better chance they'd be infectious.

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gizmo686
Can anyone comment on how bad it would be if this sample were viable and
exposed to a populated area?

~~~
kstenerud
People are only infectious after the rash appears, and remain infectious for
about 2 weeks. Transmission usually requires prolonged face-to-face contact
with an infected person. Prior to the rash appearing, the infected person will
feel lethargic and ill, and will likely take to bed.

So if there were a potent enough exposure event, it would be fairly easy to
recognize and contain. Smallpox wouldn't make a very effective biological
weapon (except for psychological effect).

------
andyjohnson0
How are virus samples such as these usually destroyed? Heat? Chemicals?

~~~
TheCondor
Autoclave.

~~~
Retric
Which uses heat.

------
nickthemagicman
"eradicated"

~~~
malka
in the sense that no human is currently infected with smallpox. The virus
itself is kinda resistant. It notably resists freezing, so it is very possible
that the virus survived in the permafrost.

