
German nuclear plant infected with computer viruses, operator says - r0muald
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nuclearpower-cyber-germany-idUSKCN0XN2OS
======
phreeza
Possibly important to note the timing of this admission right on the heels of
the announcement of our defense minister that she wants to build a 'cyber'
division in the army with 13500 people working there. Thats almost 10% of our
armed forces.

I could only find decent reporting about this in german:
[http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/plaene-der-
verteidigungsm...](http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/plaene-der-
verteidigungsministerin-ursula-von-der-leyen-will-cyber-armee-
mit-13-500-mitarbeitern/13503698.html)

~~~
elcapitan
Here in Germany that only means that 13000 people print out reports for the
minister, while 500 people look at screens. 10 of them program the stuff that
happens on the screens.

~~~
duncan_bayne
You have that many Australians working in Germany?

~~~
cm3
I don't get the reference.

~~~
gpvos
He just means that it's the same everywhere. In Australia, Germany, etc.

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elcapitan
I found that part much more .. interesting:

> As an example, Hypponen said he had recently spoken to a European aircraft
> maker that said it cleans the cockpits of its planes every week of malware
> designed for Android phones. The malware spread to the planes only because
> factory employees were charging their phones with the USB port in the
> cockpit.

~~~
TillE
The next sentence pretty much confirms my impression that this claim is almost
certainly bullshit:

> Because the plane runs a different operating system, nothing would befall
> it. But it would pass the virus on to other devices that plugged into the
> charger.

That's just...not how computers work.

~~~
theptip
See the recent BadUSB attack [1][2] for how this sort of attack can work; the
firmware of the USB microcontroller itself can be infected.

[1] [https://srlabs.de/badusb/](https://srlabs.de/badusb/) [2]
[http://www.wired.com/2014/07/usb-security/](http://www.wired.com/2014/07/usb-
security/)

~~~
na85
Doesn't badusb have to pwn the host OS to propagate?

~~~
onetimePete
Nope, and reinstalling it wont help it..

------
rthomas6
It's more alarming to me that, apparently, critical infrastructure in a
nuclear plant is running old versions of Windows.

~~~
_pmf_
> It's more alarming to me that, apparently, critical infrastructure in a
> nuclear plant is running old versions of Windows

Don't worry, the most important parts are running on DOS or OS/2, so we're
saved from doom!

~~~
mtgx
"Nuclear is safe", they said.

I'd rather have my local solar power plant infected with viruses or hit by
cyberattacks.

~~~
mabbo
Modern nuclear reactor design is such that you _cant_ cause a meltdown without
violating the laws of physics.

~~~
jobu
Unfortunately most nuclear reactors aren't modern.

~~~
germanier
As far as I know there isn't even a single one of those designs which was
successfully built somewhere yet (as in: Is able to generate more power than
it uses).

~~~
DasIch
The being able to generate more power than it uses is a problem for nuclear
fusion reactors.

The problem with modern nuclear reactor designs is that they're just that,
designs. Great ideas people in comment sections love to mentally masturbate
about. In reality almost all nuclear reactors are decades old.

Politics alone ensure nuclear reactors with the exception of maybe fusion
(which will be way too late for climate change) will never get off the ground.
In the meantime renewables, solar especially, get cheaper and more efficient
every day, not designs but actual installations.

------
batmansmk
Let's just say it's not new.

Operators mostly watch the plant during the weekend while the engineers are
not there. It is a security job: check if something turns red and pick up the
phone if it goes bonkers. The operator has a limited access to the core
process. Boring, and they get busy by going to the Internet and downloading
random stuff. And yes they do have access to the Internet...

~~~
tkinom
Remember saw a job ads for PDP11 programmer to work on Nuclear power related
project a few months ago.

One thing for sure: you can't infect a PDP11 system with Windows or Dos Virus,
nor can one plug in an USB.

~~~
tyingq
I wonder if the new hire raises eyebrows constantly talking about "core
memory", "dumping core", etc.

------
Aelinsaar
I wonder what scale of disaster will have to occur before information security
is placed under the same legal and regulatory scrutiny as physical security?

~~~
vanderZwan
I think it won't happen until everyone in society has good "computer
literacy".

~~~
delecti
The number of people who have no idea how their car works, despite them being
fairly ubiquitous for nearly 100 years makes be think that that will never
happen. There will always be people who know only just enough about the
technology around them to get by.

------
cm3
We have to be more concerned about the things that are not reported. And why
is it even technically possible to infect the control system of a power plant
at all, or was this just a virus in some auxilliary sytem like, say, the
machines only connected to another network, totally decoupled from the control
system? Without details, this is just fear mongering on the heels of recent
media outbreak regarding Belgian reactors.

~~~
snowwindwaves
The article said the virus was on "a computer system retrofitted in 2008 with
data visualization software associated with equipment for moving nuclear fuel
rods".

Control systems generally have two components; the actual controllers that
interface with the machine or equipment and then an HMI for the operator to
interface with the controller (ignoring completely hard wired systems
consisting of lights, buttons, chart recorders, etc). The majority of the HMI
software runs on windows.

Once an attacker is on the HMI system they can probably easily do anything the
operator can do, and possibly have full access to the controller and make
things happen that Should Never Happen.

------
microcolonel
What am I even reading?

A _nuclear power plant_ has computers on its airgapped network infected with
_a computer virus from 8 years ago_ for _an operating system which expired
from support two years ago._

At least the nuclear power plant near me runs on a PDP-11.

------
known
The head of the BND, the German equivalent of the American CIA, has been
booted out of his job on the orders of chancellor Angela Merkel, two years
before he was officially due to retire. No reason for the leadership change
was disclosed

[http://qz.com/671383/germany-has-sacked-its-spy-chief-but-
ha...](http://qz.com/671383/germany-has-sacked-its-spy-chief-but-hasnt-said-
why/)

------
onetimePete
Virus claims german nuclear power plant run down by underfunded operators.
"Cant spread, if you are all on old breaking down hardware on outdated systems
that nobody bothers to update." says virus.

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MelmanGI
Mandatory Simpsons quote:

Homer: "NUC-U-LAR"! IT'S PRONOUNCED, "NUC-U-LAR."

[https://frinkiac.com/meme/S09E19/665197/m/Ik5VQy1VLUxBUiIhCk...](https://frinkiac.com/meme/S09E19/665197/m/Ik5VQy1VLUxBUiIhCklUJ1MgUFJPTk9VTkNFRCwgCiJOVUMtVS1MQVIuIg==)

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jamisteven
Stuxnet coming to mind.

