
Death of the Neighborhood Bar - maxerickson
https://www.bostonmagazine.com/restaurants/2019/08/06/plough-stars-neighborhood-bars/
======
thinkingkong
If we remove alcohol from the equation I think whats more pertinent is the
death of the “third place”. Churches are dying. If the article is to be
extrapolated then smaller local bars are dying. Where do people go other than
online to socialize. Thats important to understand.

~~~
crazygringo
I honestly can't understand that at all. The "third place" has _exploded_ and
has never been more vibrant in the history of mankind, at least if you live in
a city.

Yoga classes, coffee shops, CrossFit, meetups, hiking groups, rock climbing,
dance parties, marathons, evening painting classes where they serve wine,
improv comedy shows, improv comedy classes, cooking classes, language classes,
indie band shows of every type. Meditation, Buddhism, any kind of spirituality
you might be into. Literally everything just a few clicks away on Google. You
don't need to "know somebody", you can just _go_. Go a few times in a row and
make conversation with people, and suddenly you've got community and new
friends.

Modern culture is an incredible smorgasboard where you can connect with every
type of person through pretty much every type of activity known to man,
whether athletic or artistic or spiritual or educational or all four.

The bar was a kind of lowest-common-denominator location that often came with
a drinking problem. Bars still exist, but today's alternatives are almost
infinitely more varied and vibrant.

~~~
rexgallorum2
That is true, but those are all interest based activities, things you do at
7pm on a Tuesday night, between getting off work and passing out while
watching netflix. They aren't places where one can go to simply 'be', or to
mingle with strangers. In Ireland for example, people would do those things
and then go to the pub afterwards.

Think of the Prancing Pony in the Lord of the Rings...a place where locals and
travellers can mix and mingle and converse as much or as little as they
please.

~~~
criddell
> In Ireland for example, people would do those things and then go to the pub
> afterwards.

I love the idea of a hot yoga session before heading to the pub for a couple
of pints and some darts.

~~~
i386
Nothing as beautiful as cans with the lads and a couple of smokes too

~~~
rexgallorum2
:)

------
csomar
Anybody think it's about price? At least the quoted guy thinks so

> Why go to a bar when you can go to a yoga class, WhatsApp your friends,
> crack open an inexpensive bottle of wine at home, and watch something on
> Amazon Prime?

And I do believe that if beer prices were 1/3 of the usual, you'll see way
more customers. Boston and some other US cities I have visited have,
inexplicably, very high prices for bars and restaurants. Then you add taxes
and tips.

Add to that the American sprawl and if you are drinking a few beers, you'll
need an Uber to/back home. That makes your night in the $70-100.

No wonder Americans don't have $2000-$3000/month to spend on after-work bars.

~~~
rubyn00bie
This times 1000.

Back in the day around 10 years ago I could go out and spend less than or
right around $20 for a night out (a few hours at my local haunt)... now I am
unable to do that for less than $70. My wages have not increased 3x; so now, I
go out maybe a couple times a month... and I even still drink cheap well
whiskey (Old Crow, ka-kaw!).

~~~
bscphil
> GP: And I do believe that if beer prices were 1/3 of the usual, you'll see
> way more customers.

I agree, but I don't think you'd see 3x the number of customers.

> Back in the day around 10 years ago I could go out and spend less than or
> right around $20 for a night out (a few hours at my local haunt)... now I am
> unable to do that for less than $70.

This makes me wonder where you live and what kind of bars you go to. I'm in a
large American city that will appear on any list of most expensive cities to
live in. Thinking about the places I've been to more than once, $20 would buy
me about three beers - and even that price is _vastly_ more expensive than the
$12 price of a sixpack where I live. $70 would buy me enough beer to be passed
out on the floor.

Now granted, I know there are fancy quiet bars for the wealthy. I was at one
for someone's birthday once and mixed drinks started at about $15. And even
$20 for a night out is high enough that I (not quite middle class in this
city) can't do it often. But I wonder if you live in the most expensive part
of your city, or if your tastes have become more expensive in recent years. To
be sure, one isn't up for the atmosphere of a college dive every night, but I
think in most cities there are still cheaper ways to go out with people.

~~~
csomar
3 beers, a side item, a tip and 2 Ubers could take the total bill to $70. Now
if you live in a walking distance (probably somewhere in the middle of the
action in a walkable place like NYC) that could cut down the costs. This might
explain why dense cities have more nightlife. It's cheaper both from a $ and
effort perspective to go out.

~~~
bscphil
I think you may have hit it. This article is about the "neighborhood" bar. In
other words, it's a place where you meet with people who live nearby. A
neighborhood bar is not a place that's a $10+ Uber away.

Which isn't exactly the fault of anyone who has to take one for a night out.
This points to a nexus of problems with American cities, including sprawl, and
the fact that few people know their neighbors.

------
rexgallorum2
Looks like the usual hatchetators are here to play.

Bars and pubs are not the same. Bars just serve alcohol, but pubs are public
living rooms and centres of communal life. A pub is where life's milestones
are celebrated, the departed are grieved, friendships are cemented, matches
are made, and revolutions are plotted.

And some of us prefer the pleasures and pangs of gradual self-destruction to
the quasi-religious cult of self-improvement.

Some of us truly our 'best selves' after a few pints of something dark and
bitter.

I for one never trust anyone who doesn't drink.

Cheers!

~~~
futureastronaut
> I for one never trust anyone who doesn't drink.

And if they can't drink for medical reasons?

~~~
rexgallorum2
Medical and religious reasons are totally exempt in my book. Though I strongly
recommend getting wasted on Raki with (Muslim) Turks. They have hollow legs.
And it totally breaks down any preconceptions or irrational prejudices one
might have. I once had a Pakistani Muslim over for Christmas dinner, and I
offered him some single malt scotch. He said his duty to accept my hospitality
outweighed his duty to abstain from alcohol. We had an excellent time. :)

But really if it's medical, it can't be helped. And if it is really a matter
of faith, then abstinence is absolutely worthy of respect.

~~~
llamathrowaway
What’s your opinion on recovering alcoholics?

~~~
rexgallorum2
Known many, and that I respect as well. True alcoholism is an absolute
monster, and the truth is that some people simply cannot stop once they start.
Don't assume I think everyone should drink just for the sake of it--many
people have excellent reasons for not doing so. Totally understandable. Many
people who do not drink are beyond reproach.

And then some others are, well, Cathy/Kate from Steinbeck's 'East of Eden'.

Might change my original position to 'I don't trust anyone who doesn't drink
without a good explanation such as a medical condition that precludes the
enjoyment of the drink, religious convictions, or a history of or proclivity
towards alcoholism. Sounds rather like an American prescription drug ad
though.

------
gambiting
As a 28-year old, I never understood the appeal of a pub as a meeting place. I
think my main issue is that in loud places I just cannot for the life of me
understand what is being said. I've had my hearing tested and it's absolutely
fine, better than it should be at my age actually, and yet it's as if my
ability to decode human speech goes to zero as soon as I'm in a loud
environment, especially if there's sport events playing on the TV as well. I
end up sitting there and nodding to conversations because I genuinely have no
idea what people are saying. And yet people have group meetings and hold
entire conversations surrounded by what seems like just an impenetrable wall
of noise. Anyone else with the same problem?

~~~
throwawaysixthg
Same problem. Hearing so good in quieter environments that it seems impossible
to some people, and totally unable to make out a single word in a typical bar
or club or party etc.

I’ve always thought it had something to do with undiagnosed ADD, or maybe more
likely some autism spectrum disorder (though I never understood why medical
professionals felt the need to label something that feels to me mostly like a
few commonly coexisting personality traits and is not a source of any medical
adversity for me a “treatable disorder”, so I’ve always rejected this).

I also have problems with alarms and sirens. I’ve walked down many miles of
city blocks in my life, and I’m the only person I’ve ever seen who has to put
down everything they’re holding and cover their ears with both hands any time
an emergency vehicles drives by. That makes me enough of an outlier that I
think there’s probably something medical to this, I don’t know what though.

~~~
gambiting
Huh, the bit about emergency vehicle sirens is weird - because I'm exactly the
same. If an emergency vehicle is driving past I _have to_ cover my ears or
otherwise it's just...painful? I've never seen anyone else do this.

~~~
throwawaysixthg
Interesting! I’ve never seen anyone else do it either.

It’s similar to pain but it’s more like a sensory input at a level of
intensity that is so overwhelming that it feels like it is or could cause
permanent physical harm to whatever in my ear is receiving that input.

I guess I just described pain, but it feels a little different because the
sensory input itself is the source of it, it’s not a side effect of anything
else that’s happening, and it doesn’t really feel similar to any other kind of
pain.

Fire alarms do this to me too. I lived in a building with false alarms every
few weeks. I would like to have ignored them and continued working, but it is
just impossible. I have to cover my ears and wait for the pauses between
sounds to even do anything with my hands, like unplug a laptop or open a door.

------
arcturus17
Wonderful article, both content and style.

I’m in my early 30s and although I’m hardly lonely, I miss making new friends.
The article makes me want to try visiting a few of my local bars more often.

------
seibelj
On the contrary, I’m a lifelong Mass guy whose been in Boston proper for 12
years, and the bars seem better than ever. I’m in Jamaica Plain and Turtle
Swamp brewery is packed every weekend and expanded into the neighboring
building, which was abandoned and dilapidated before they came. My wife and I
met a couple there from the neighborhood and we became good friends, we just
went to their wedding. Downtown JP is in a renaissance of success and local
business activity. The death of bars in Boston is greatly exaggerated.

~~~
futureastronaut
There's quite a class divide between corner pub and brew-pub clientele. It
feels like for every trendy brewery thriving, a few anonymous bars are
failing. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it is different, and I'm not sure that
a popular brew-pub is a useful counterexample to the general decline of dive
bars.

------
apo
About half the article is about a regular named Richard, who dies:

> When I heard that Richard was in a bad way, I figured he was at a low point
> in another cycle. I expected that I would just see him at the Plough the
> next time I dropped in. Instead, he died.

Nothing is said about what killed him, but I suspect there might be a clue
here:

> Arguably, their [bars'] lifeblood—alcohol—has destroyed more American
> families than any drug ever has. Now the owner of the Plough, I struggle
> with this truth. My own family has been afflicted by alcoholism, and while
> “the gene,” as it is often called, bypassed me, I worry for my four-year-old
> twin boys. Recently, one of them snuck a sip of my beer, then thrust his
> right fist in the air in triumph and shouted in his deepest voice, “I am a
> man!” before running away gleefully. I laughed, but the episode also stabbed
> me with worry that he may be carrying a ticking time bomb.

It's hard to imagine the mental gymnastics that must be necessary by the owner
to keep this business going.

Some patrons may be staying home, but it looks to me as if a plethora of
alternative hangouts and ways to meet, not centered on alcohol, have popped up
over the years:

\- Meetup groups

\- juice/hookah/vegan/whatever bars

\- exercise/yoga classes and groups

\- hookup apps

~~~
martey
> Nothing is said about what killed him...

From the article:

> _If the Plough provided him with a home in Boston and a community that was
> his own, it also helped him toward his demise. When he died at 60 in 2017,
> booze played a starring role in his precipitous decline._

Later in the article, the author also explicitly states that Richard was an
alcoholic.

------
ErikAugust
Old neighborhood bars are also in prime locations for real estate
“redevelopment”. Many seem to get wiped out just for this reason.

------
nunez
I don't think Netflix and (maybe) chill explains this wholly. Here's my guess:
{Boston, NYC, San Francisco, Chicago, $CITY} isn't as cheap as it used to be.
Bigger, more corporate bars can afford the rents required to stay near where
the people are. Consequently, smaller, neighborhood pubs close and force
people to commune near bigger bars (and sometimes pubs) to get their fix of
community through delicious alcoholic drinks.

------
Nestorius
The Plough used to be my neighborhood haunt. I knew Richard, he was a decent
friendly guy, I liked him. Its strange to learn about his passing on this
website.

------
selimthegrim
This is so emphatically untrue in New Orleans I have to wonder if the writer
has ever visited.

~~~
dredmorbius
Nawlins is about the most atypical American city you can find. It's best
typified as Caribbean North.

That's not a slight, just an observation. And yes, virtually _all_ major
cities are fairly distinctive. As Ed Glaeser has pointed out, something of an
anti-Anna Karenina principle: unsuccessful cities are all alike, successful
cities are each successful in their own way.

Not _entirely_ true, but a strong element of truth to it.

------
sneak
[https://www.ele.uri.edu/faculty/vetter/Other-stuff/The-
Machi...](https://www.ele.uri.edu/faculty/vetter/Other-stuff/The-Machine-
Stops.pdf)

------
acollins1331
My guess is the bar is just lame. There are plenty of cool bars that are
packed every night in basically every place I've ever lived.

~~~
gexla
A neighborhood bar is a place you go to see people you know will be there.
Even if your friends aren't there, you'll still know the owner and the staff.
The people you see there routinely are the "regulars" and the "locals." You're
not going to the neighborhood bar to get sloppy drunk, loud or to pick up
chicks. You aren't going there to "party."

A "cool bar" which is packed is usually too loud for conversation. If you want
to sit and talk casually with people you know, then you won't go to the cool
bar. If you go alone to a cool bar, then you might not talk to anyone. The
atmosphere has too much going on for casual conversation. You can't overhear
and engage with someone sitting at the opposite side of the bar.

This may sound lame, but one of the major themes of this article is
loneliness. Regulars at the neighborhood bar might find that the bar is less
lame than being lonely at home.

~~~
rexgallorum2
Absolutely! The best thing about the local is that you don't need to make any
plans with anyone. You already have a pretty good idea who will be there.

------
caycep
I used to live down the block from the bar in the article. Fantastic bar,
staff, food and live music...

------
RickJWagner
" Arguably, their lifeblood—alcohol—has destroyed more American families than
any drug ever has."

My reason for not missing the neighborhood bar much.

They have some value-- helping people socialize, notably. But the downsides
are just too steep.

------
nn3
Article can't quite make up its mind whether it's about the death of bars or
the death of one bar patron.

~~~
okcando
This is probably purposeful, to draw parallels. The author also can't quite
make up his mind about whether drinking becoming less popular is good or bad.

It's relatable content. When you have a bunch of nostalgia and identity (and
money, in this guy's case) invested into something, I guess it would be hard
to admit that overall, it's categorically been to society's detriment.

~~~
selimthegrim
Don’t you love how everyone on HN thinks they can do journalism too off the
cuff just because tech disrupted it? Glad to see taste hasn’t been disrupted

~~~
arcturus17
I thought the article was really well-written, felt like a good mix of fact
and emotion. I read it to the end which I don’t do with about 80% of HN
stories...

