
The “432 Hz vs. 440 Hz” conspiracy theory - mweibel
https://jakubmarian.com/the-432-hz-vs-440-hz-conspiracy-theory
======
anigbrowl
I have been following this for years, being both a sound engineer and a bit of
a hippie who knows a lot of other hippies. The basic issue is that 432 is a
numerologically interesting number compared to 440. So if it's more
interesting it should be better for artistic purposes, goes the argument.
However this falls flat as soon as you consider that the 432 is only
interesting relative to the completely arbirtrary duration of a second. There
is nothing special about the second from a human psychoacoustic point of view.
We could have standardized on a longer or shorter time interval, but since
we'd been using the Babylonian-originated divisions for centuries in the west
the second is what we ended up with.

But unless the music also contains some 1Hz modulation (or a power-of-two
multiple thereof) then the 432 base frequency isn't related to anything
fundamental in musical terms. Speaking as a DJ, if you take a track and play
it a little bit faster or slower it still sounds great or awful as at the
default speed in most cases. 432Hz vs 440Hz is a ~2% difference, while DJ
equipment commonly allows for +/-10% pitch variation so you can match the pace
of different tracks smoothly while people are dancing. Only the very tiny
number of people with perfect pitch find this disorienting to listen to. If
there were really something special about the duration of the second and the
base pitch relative to that, you'd have expected it to emerge from dancefloors
years ago. In reality 432Hz is basically cargo cult numerology, something fun
to think about when you are not having any success coming up with a kickass
tune. And kickass tunes derive their quality from the _relative_ rations of
the note pitches, not from some absolute Magic Frequency.

Trust me on this. I really love numerology, sacred geometry and so on, and I
try to integrate this into my artistic work regardless of medium. I would
_love_ for there to be some special key that would unlock the gate to cosmic/
biological/ quantum harmony and allow my artistic work to automatically echo
the heartbeat of the universe. I'm a mystic by temperament and have been
looking for such things my whole life. I would go so far as to say I have some
religious faith in the significance of such things. But this ain't it.

~~~
mrb
_" if you take a track and play it a little bit faster or slower it still
sounds great or awful as at the default speed in most cases."_

Yup. Another example: in most of the world (where the television system is PAL
or SECAM) movies are played on TV or released on DVD at 25 frame per second.
But to achieve this frame rate, they take the theatrical film release at 24
fps and speed the video and audio up by 25/24th (4.17%). Of course almost
nobody knows this because nobody notices it.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/576i#PAL_speed-
up](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/576i#PAL_speed-up)

For NTSC, the film release is sped down by a much smaller amount (0.1%) during
the 3:2 pulldown to adjust from 30 to the exact 29.97 fps that NTSC needs.

~~~
criley2
Another example is the kind of dastardly television trick of increasing the
speed of a television program to shorten it and thus increase the amount of
advertising space that can be run alongside the program.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6i1VVikRu0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6i1VVikRu0)

This video claims that TBS is currently increasing the speed of Seinfeld
episodes a whopping 9%, reducing a 25 minute episode to some 22.5 minutes.

~~~
nullc
"mpv -speed 1.1 file.webm" ... get 10% of your watching things time back, it
does pitch correction, often its unnoticeable.

Technology can work in your favor too!

~~~
jmiserez
VLC can do this too:

Speed up: ] key Speed down: [ key Normal speed: = key

~~~
50CNT
I use that to watch slow lectures at anywhere to 1.8x to 2.3x the speed. Turns
a 40 minute lecture into a 20 minute lecture.

~~~
geon
Some people one youtube speak really slowly, or are unprepared. The 1.25x
speed button is great for that.

Also, some youtubers speak way too fast. Slowing them down helps comprehension
a lot, I find.

------
dmix
Decided to try searching this and found this lovely site:

> A=432 Hz, known as Verdi’s ‘A’ is an alternative tuning that is
> mathematically consistent with the universe. Music based on 432Hz transmits
> beneficial healing energy, because it is a pure tone of math fundamental to
> nature
> [https://attunedvibrations.com/432hz/](https://attunedvibrations.com/432hz/)

Oh new age pseudo science. My mom loves this stuff and I never fully
understood why. My sister gets angry at me when I point things out or level
any criticism because "it makes her happy". This apathy to the issue from
people who should know better is likely why nonsense like this keeps spreading
in an age of Snopes and Google.

~~~
costcopizza
Eh-- pick your battles.

If family members get a positive placebo effect from listening to "5 Hours
High Quality BEST 432hz Meditation Healing Chakra" on YouTube...Who cares?

~~~
ptaipale
The one whose inheritance is next squandered on highly priced meditation
chakra recordings and excessively expensive hoax high-end audio equipment?
(From Youtube to purchasing mail order junk...)

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
Until that person dies or is otherwise ruled incapacitated, it's their money
to spend however they like.

~~~
Retra
No it isn't. Spending is very clearly regulated, and you are only allowed to
spend it on sufficiently 'normal' things.

------
harrumph
I have no idea why this laughable article/idea persists, but the actual answer
about 440 Hz is completely commercial and mundane.

Decisions made by the J.C. Deagan mallet instrument company at 1770 W. Berteau
in Chicago are the sole reasons why A=440. I once worked in this building,
still called the Deagan building.

The company made chimes and xylophones and instruments. They had customers all
over the US. Each symphony in each city used a slightly different reference
tuning. Philadelphia used 442, New York 438, etc.

This fact forced Deagan to retool their machinery every time a different order
came in. This cut into profits. The owner, J.C. Deagan urged his customers to
standardize on one reference tuning. One reference tuning meant one set of
machine tools for his machines and no time or money spent retooling.

Deagan got results only when he contacted James Petrillo, the President of the
AFM - the national musicians' union. Petrillo made it a work rule that A=440,
overriding the conductors local preferences.

This was in 1910. Therefore there are no nazis involved.

[http://richsamuels.com/nbcmm/deagan/index.html](http://richsamuels.com/nbcmm/deagan/index.html)

Hey internet: don't be so goddamn gullible all the time, okay?

~~~
zodiac
Where did the article that nazis were involved?

~~~
raldi
Second sentence.

~~~
zodiac
The second sentence makes no such claim. If you scroll further down you'll see

> Why do we use A = 440 Hz? (spoiler: no Nazis)

~~~
raldi
Right, the second sentence describes a conspiracy theory, and the end of the
article dismisses this theory. The person you were replying to concurs with
this dismissal, and presents additional evidence.

~~~
zodiac
No I think the person I was replying doesn't know that the article dismisses
the conspiracy theory. I might be wrong

> I have no idea why this laughable article/idea persists

~~~
harrumph
You are wrong about that. This is the third or fourth time I've seen this
dippy nonsense in print, and I wish it did not persist. Its central sin is
that it obscures the mundane, industrial-based reasons for the tuning
standard's emergence.

~~~
zodiac
I'm sorry for being wrong then, but I'm still a bit confused - which part of
the article is inaccurate?

> Its central sin is that it obscures the mundane, industrial-based reasons
> for the tuning standard's emergence.

The article claims that tuning standards emerged because pitch inflation lead
to problems for singers, is that inaccurate?

~~~
harrumph
No apology needed!

And yes, the tuning standard emerged from the wishes of the owner of a single
mallet instrument factory in Chicago named Deagan.

[http://richsamuels.com/nbcmm/deagan/index.html](http://richsamuels.com/nbcmm/deagan/index.html)

------
haberman
> orchestras specializing in older music may sometimes tune in the tuning
> close to the one for which the piece was originally written, which may range
> from 415 Hz to 470 Hz).

I can say as someone who performs a lot of Baroque music (c. 1600 - 1750) that
there is a relatively common standard of A=415 for music of this period. A=415
is often referred to as "Baroque pitch."

This mainly applies to ensembles that specialize in Baroque music, and use
historical instruments. If you see your local symphony orchestra play Bach on
modern instruments, they will probably play at A=440.

I have never performed at a pitch higher than 440. I'm sure it happens
sometimes, but I think it's more of a niche thing.

~~~
ohthehugemanate
Opera singer here - you must be playing in North America. In Germany tunings
range from 436 to 444, depending on what you're playing. Most theaters tune to
442.

One thing that gets opera singers (like me) up in a knot about this, is that
the human voice is not a tune-able instrument. There are registration issues
in fixed frequency ranges, which we can't change. At A440, a register shift
happens a quarter tone lower than where Mozart and Verdi expected it. That
creates a sound difference that an audience can hear, and a big difference
technically.

~~~
hunter2_
As a classically trained but relatively amateur singer, and professional audio
engineer, this fascinates me because I would've thought such breaks vary
enough from person to person that it wouldn't be possible for a
composer/conductor to expect it to be somewhere with anything like quarter-
tone precision. Cool!

------
dragonshine
I have met some very competent musicians who have found 432 tuning to be
powerfully effective. When I dug into this, I discovered they were tuning the
other notes in the scal to frequencies in whole numbered cycles per second,
using tables being passed around. So the real change was in the qualities of
_intervals_ ; many of these became far more resonant than the compromised
resonant qualities we get with equal tempered tuning. This trade-off was once
well known in the musical world, but it is now long forgotten. I consider
"432" to be a symbol that suggests the restoration of forgotten methods for
tuning scales, rather than a literal value to be used to proportionally change
the frequency of every note.

~~~
erbo
If you're interested in this sort of thing, look for Wendy Carlos' album
_Switched-On Bach 2000._ She revisits the material of her classic electronic
music album with modern synthesizer equipment, and uses authentic Bach tunings
for the pieces as well. The liner notes for the album explain the tuning
systems used, and how they differ from the modern, mathematically-perfect
equal temperament. She notes that Bach was himself a first-rate tuner and
theorist, and was not above retuning "on the fly" to improve the sound of
various compositions. Of course, with synthesizers, a tuning is just a block
of data, which can be reloaded as needed.

(As a "bonus track" on the album, she included a realization of "Toccata and
Fugue in D Minor." Especially appropriate for the season!)

~~~
blt
Wendy Carlos is awesome! I didn't know about the 2000 version, I will check
that out.

Tuning is just a block of data on a digital synthesizer, but on an analog
synthesizer it's not. If you use a keyboard controller, it's generating pitch
control voltages with a fixed 2^(1/12) ratio between notes (or logarithm
thereof). It would be challenging to convert this into a just intonation.

On the other hand, if the pitch control voltages are generated by
potentiometers on an analog sequencer [1] and the musician is setting those
potentiometers by ear, the musician will probably end up tuning to a just
intonation because it sounds more correct to the ear.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_sequencer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_sequencer)

------
zefhous
On the subject, here's an interesting song that starts out at A432hz and makes
its way up to A440hz by the end.

Hideaway – Jacob Collier [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v3zyPEy-
Po](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v3zyPEy-Po)

I did not explicitly notice this the first time hearing it, but I certainly
_felt_ it. When I discovered the change it made sense to me. The mood is
lifted over the course of the song as the tuning is also lifted.

There are so many elements of music that are routinely varied within a song —
dynamics, texture, timbre, rhythm, key, and tempo (though less frequently
during this age of the click track). I don't think I'd noticed tuning used
prior to this.

~~~
nitrogen
I sometimes vary the tuning in subtle ways in my piano music (using a software
piano).

------
a3n
> the BBC required their orchestras to tune to 440 Hz instead of 439 Hz
> because 439 is a prime number, and the corresponding frequency is hard to
> generate electronically.

I followed, until this. Earlier he debunks the significance of 432 _per
second_ (including that it's a sum of four consecutive primes), because a
second is an arbitrary length of time. But now he says that 439 _per second_
is difficult to generate electronically, because it's prime.

I'm not an EE. I'm willing to believe, but could a knowledgeable someone help
us out here?

~~~
bravo22
439 being a prime would be an issue if you were up multiplying a lower
frequency to generate it, for example using a PLL. However it is such a slow
signal that it would be generated by dividing down a higher frequency. For
example you can divide it down from an 18 MHz clock.

So, nope his claim doesn't make sense.

~~~
zokier
439 from 18M requires a divisor of 41, which does sound trivial. Meanwhile 440
from 1M requires only dividing by 5 and 2 when first multiplied by 11, which
might have been significantly simpler than dividing by 41.

I wonder if there is some easy way of figuring out the simplest base number-
multiplier-divisor chains for getting certain numbers?

~~~
duskwuff
Dividing a frequency by a large prime, like 41, is somewhat difficult without
digital electronics. Smaller factors are easier.

------
monktastic1
I spent three months in meditation retreat some years ago. I'd never heard of
this phenomenon. At some point, I started hearing various tones that weren't
coming from outside. They eventually became quite loud. I noticed three tones
in particular, and wrote some code to pin down their frequencies.

I discovered that they were C, E, and G, where the A would have been 432 Hz
(or very close to it; certainly much closer than to 440). Some internet
searching turned up this phenomenon. Apparently ancient Hindus and Buddhists
heard similar tones during meditation, and related them to various points in
the body.

Maybe there is something to the notion that it's related to our neurology or
physiology in some way.

~~~
brokenmachine
_> I noticed three tones in particular, and wrote some code to pin down their
frequencies._

What kind of code does one write to get the exact frequency of a sound in your
head?

~~~
monktastic1
Haha yeah I could have explained better. I wrote code to play a solid tone
where I could adjust the frequency via keyboard input. I played around until
it matched what I heard internally. I have some musical training and know I
can do that pretty well.

------
PaulHoule
Wasn't the 432 Hz thing started by Lyndon Larouche?

[http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/revolution.html](http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/revolution.html)

~~~
Torgo
He basically popularized it, and I was surprised someone wrote an entire
article on this without mentioning that fact.

------
todd8
The article mentions _pitch inflation_ and it reminds me of something I
learned about symphony orchestras.

I dated an symphony oboe player for a few years. Oboes players play the note
used to tune the orchestra before performances because the oboe has a
penetrating sound and has very limited tuning capability (due to their
construction) so other instruments are tuned to the oboe.

She said that the string players often wanted a higher "brighter" pitch than
the true pitch for middle C. She had to carry an electronic tuner (about the
size of a smart phone) to verify her pitch and resolve disputes with the some
of the string players.

------
joeberon
Moral of the story is that numbers with dimensions totally arbitrary. In
theoretical physics you often want to find a small parameter to do a Taylor
expansion and make some mathematical expression simpler. A small parameter is
a number much less than one, but if we have a quantity with the units of
metres for example, we cannot say "r is much less than 1" because you can't
compare a number with dimensions to one. You could always pick your units such
that the number is much less than 1. What you instead do is find some _ratio_
of quantities that is much less than one, because then the units cancel and
you have a dimensionless quantity that you can then compare to 1.

------
elihu
One proposed pitch standard that was never widely used set C at 256 hz just to
make the math slightly easier.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_pitch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_pitch)

------
code_duck
I use all different sizes of strings and tensions and tunings for my basses
and guitars. ALL of the Western 12 note musical system is a social construct,
not something innate to music, and other than what audiences and musicians are
accustomed to, it makes no difference what tuning you use. Just like bands can
play songs slightly faster or slower live, they can also transpose the pitch a
half step or two, or a semitone in whatever direction, without most people
consciously noticing. And it could have a beneficial effect on a song, or not.
Exact tuning just doesn't matter to people without perfect pitch - relative
pitch matters.

------
cbr

        An equilateral triangle whose area and perimeter are
        equal has the area of exactly the square root of 432.
    

Let's say we have an equilateral triangle with a perimeter of 3x units. Then
each side is x units, and the area is sqrt(3) * x^2 / 4 square units. So we
set:

    
    
                3x = sqrt(3) * x^2 / 4
                 3 = sqrt(3) * x / 4
       3*4/sqrt(3) = x
        12/sqrt(3) = x
    

Then the area is:

    
    
        sqrt(3) * (12/sqrt(3))^2 / 4
        sqrt(3) * 144 / 12
        sqrt(3) * 12
        sqrt(3) * sqrt(144)
        sqrt(432)
    

Fun!

~~~
castratikron
I saw that in the article, too, but it didn't make sense to me. One has units
of area and the other has units of length. How can they possibly be equal?
That's like saying a 700 foot wall is the same size as a 700 square foot
apartment.

~~~
cbr
That's what made it jump out to me too! But the key thing is that one number
is in linear units and the other is in square units. So for any linear unit
you choose (mm, in, km, furlongs, ...) an equilateral triangle with perimeter
sqrt(432) units will have area sqrt(432) square units.

------
6stringmerc
Prince was also big into the 432 Hz thing vs. 440. 432 on guitar feels a
little nicer overall but I like to play along to radio / DJ mixes for fun &
practice and being at 432 feels off to me, so I stick with 440. 432 is good on
acoustic, but then again open tuning sounds good on acoustic no matter if
using 432 or 440.

~~~
nerdponx
I like playing bass tuned slightly flat because I have tiny hands and it's
easier to play with less tension.

~~~
scarecrowbob
I recently switched to nylon wrapped strings... they also have lower tension.
But I mostly did it because I play a lot of americana / folk / rockabilly /
blues / jazz and wanted a better slap sound.

Unfortunately they sound terrible arco so now I have to play cello when I play
in my wife's orchestra. :(

[edit] it occurs to me that you're talking about electric bass... in which
case nylon strings would be a bit strange ;) sorry about that.

~~~
nerdponx
I was talking about electric. But thanks for reminding me to play my upright
now and then! Poor thing needs some TLC... and a much lower bridge.

------
misingnoglic
Just wait until the conspiracy nuts learn about the tunings that affect the
distance between notes, not just the shift! (I'm surprised my double music
major is useful somewhere).

~~~
codingdave
Just curious - what exactly is a double music major? (I always have heard of
double majors as being separate subjects.)

~~~
tjalex
I think they mean that chose to major in <X>, with music as a second
(additional) major.

~~~
TylerE
Possible also they got to different music degrees, in say, Composition/Theory
and Trombone Performance.

------
sgwealti
A guy I met at a party this weekend was explaining this to me (as something he
believed) and I was trying to keep the "WTF" off my face. Thanks for posting
this.

------
hammock
For those wondering, 432 Hz is about 32 cents below 440 Hz, or nearly a
quartertone flat.

~~~
jackhack
There has been a "hertz" war in the bagpipe world for the past 200 years with
the pitch raising steadily higher over the decades. Ancient pipes' "A" were
historically tuned at 440hz, but modern pipes are tuned around 476-480hz!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Highland_Bagpipe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Highland_Bagpipe)

------
esaym
A cool video on "music temperament" as well:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRlp-
OH0OEA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRlp-OH0OEA)

------
umanwizard
Interestingly, his argument for dismissing the conspiracy theory basically
boils down to type theory.

It's not legal to "convert" Hertz to other units willy-nilly, especially
because Hertz is tagged with an attribute that says "this relies on arbitrary
constants", meaning you would have to multiply 432 by some conversion factor
before you can compare it to pure numbers.

Thinking about things in terms of types (in a fuzzy, intuitive way) like this
is a very powerful mental shortcut that is useful surprisingly often.

------
aaroninsf
I helped do a lot of costumer relations for a music instrument maker who makes
fixed-tuning instruments (which cannot be retuned by players, it's a fine
art).

By nature of the instrument, we had a lot of relatively mystical-minded
customers, and a solid subset inquired about the availability of instruments
tuned to a 432 Hz reference.

What was interesting is that there is indeed a difference in 'feel'
(character, vibe...) for most acoustic instruments when you tune them down
e.g. to an alternative, lower, pitch reference. (Because most aspects of the
system are either non-linear e.g. our sensitivity to various pitches, and
maybe some sort of psychoacoustic quasi-significance assignment... ... or
because simply they are changing one term in a function, e.g. given a fixed
thickness of vibrating membrane, tuning it to a different pitch yields a
different relationship to the many 'modes' in the system akin to standing
waves... etc etc etc)

There's nothing mystical about it all of course... but the vibe changes, and
many people prefer a slightly lower pitch, and now it is 'carried' by the
instruments.

Then you get fuzzy thinking... I like this better, it feels better, QED an
alternative pitch reference is the key to life itself.

What's funny in my experience is that our specific instrument did not have a
fixed equal tempered tuning anyway, for technical reasons... so even with a
432 Hz A reference, the pitch values for say C# or F# were not === what they
'should' be according to 432 Hz adherents.

But try explaining that gently to an adherent... especially in the context of
kindly debunking their mysticism around this topic... <wince>

------
analog31
_However, in the 19th century, obtaining thicker strings was not that easy.
Manufacturing of strings was a complicated procedure, so rather than changing
the manufacturing process, it was much easier to tune the same strings to a
higher pitch to increase tension and thus improve the sound._

Worth noting that today's strings are made from steel and nylon, as opposed to
gut.

------
cageek
[Posted on my blog]([http://www.krisconstable.com/432-hz-vs-440-hz-conspiracy-
the...](http://www.krisconstable.com/432-hz-vs-440-hz-conspiracy-theory/))

While I appreciate Jakub’s breakdown for the reader to get to explaining why
the 432 number itself is effectively fabricated for convenience, he eventually
states: “_The 432 Hz tuning, the divine tuning of nature itself, is ultimately
defined as one vibration per 21279240.2083 periods of radiation of an uncommon
chemical element_” however he’s missing the critical argument.

What is missing from the argument is the irrelevance of the number. For
example, if 432 Hz resonates with I don’t know, the neocortex, there is no
relevance what the number is or that we’ve associated with what we humans
currently call a time second — that’s just a standard way of identifying the
number.

What needs to be done is validation or invalidation of this frequency in terms
of “healing and soothing properties.” It’s also important to not do so
defensively, otherwise you’re arguing against organized religion or Santa
Claus or Unicorns — it’s a useless effort to argue against something that has
no scientific evidence. If someone is making a claim without evidence in the
first place, you’re arguing irrationally already and you’ve already lost.
Reason requires logic.

“Here is my repeatable scientific evidence why I feel the world is flat” is
different than “I have a feeling the reason the sky is blue is from unicorn
tears — prove to me it’s not”.

It is my suggestion that if someone feels that 432 Hz has healing and soothing
properties, they take this hypothesis and run it through the scientific
method. It will be these published results that can be responded to, directly.
A quick search on plosone doesn’t show that there’s any documented research in
this area currently, a new opportunity for those interested.

~~~
siglesias
This can be difficult because everybody has been overexposed to 440, which is
nearly impossible to control for. Even if you log an effect it can be argued
that the effect is not of 432 but of a certain deviation from a norm.

~~~
andrewflnr
Eh, try it across a range of different tunings and see if there's a peak in
the effect around 432. If there were, it would be easier for me to believe
it's the 432 that's significant rather than "normal - 8Hz"

------
earlz
When I first heard of this I was really messing around with different tunings
and such for writing music on guitar/bass. I didn't buy the whole new science
schtick, but I did give it a try and I believe recorded and "produced" (as a
hobbyist) an entire song in 432 hz to see if it'd be more interesting to work
it. The only real noticeable thing to me was my strings were a bit more floppy
than usual (due to it being in between E and Eflat tuning). It was an
interesting experiment, but I've stuck to 440hz ever since, except for one
time when I tried to do a rock cover/adaptation of a song from the 1920s that
was in some crazy mystery temperament that I could never properly match
(probably because every instrument section was different, horns were like
435+, double bass was 432, some strings were flat at like 430 or 431.. it was
a difficult thing I never accomplished)

------
ap22213
Fascinating stuff. I have never pondered the arbitrariness of musical tunings
(probably because I am not a musician).

However, if these tunings and notes vary so much, what does it mean when one
claims that they have 'perfect pitch'? Is it an ability that uses the relative
distance between notes? That is, given an A they can identify the C?

~~~
ssttoo
> given an A they can identify the C

this is relative pitch

> what does it mean when one claims that they have 'perfect pitch'

someone starting before 6 years old (better chance of things sticking) and
being sung "bah-bah-black sheep" with a piano at the correct pitch. So they
manage to remember the starting pitch as well as the relative up/down of the
melody.

Interestingly, more common in "tonal" language speakers, e.g. Mandarin, where
the pitch can make a difference in the meaning of the same word. Apparently
"ma" can mean mom, horse, lazy... depending on the pitch and its direction.

Perfect pitch is mostly a curse than a blessing as many notes in the world are
off, e.g. a school bell, and hurt the person with the perfect pitch. I hear :)

------
analog31
An amusing aside: As I understand it, a lot of rock bands use "drop" tuning,
in which the guitars and electric bass are tuned down by a semitone or more.
Explanations on web forums vary, but tend to revolve around the range of the
typical male singer, as well as a preference for a more "heavy" sound.

~~~
clay_to_n
This is true, but in drop tunings (and most alternate guitar tunings) the
instrument is still usually tuned to 440 Hz - each string is just tuned to a
different note in a 440 Hz scale.

~~~
colomon
It's a somewhat interesting question. One of my favorite recent albums [1] is
at A = 366Hz. That's literally the case (the A string on the fiddle is tuned
to 366Hz), but of course you could argue the whole thing is transposed down a
minor third and then tuned to A = 435 or so.

[1] [https://soundcloud.com/nicolaslbrown/sets/alison-and-
nicks-t...](https://soundcloud.com/nicolaslbrown/sets/alison-and-nicks-tracks)

------
spraak
The article doesn't explain itself very well.

> There are millions of people in the world who believe that Goebbels dictated
> the tuning to make people feel more anxious and warlike.

Is that a hyperbole? I doubt there are millions that believe this.

> I cannot say with certainty that there is no difference in the psychological
> effects of A = 432 Hz and A = 440 Hz, but I suspect there is no significant
> difference

This is the most interesting part, I think - i.e. what psychological
difference is there? because that is what most proponents are focused on (e.g.
the effects on the heart, chakras, etc.)

> and I think that if 432 Hz were some kind of a sweet spot, someone would
> have noticed by now.

This completely misses the point, because proponents of 432Hz are saying this
exactly! that 432Hz is a sweet spot!

I'm not sure myself, but I found these to be hole's in the author's claims
against it being a special frequency.

------
thght
I think it is totally irrelevant what the exact pitch is. I play guitar for
over 40 years and I rarely tune my guitar exactly to 432 or 440, instead, I
often tune my guitar about a whole note lower because I like the sound of the
strings with less tension.

Whatever the pitch is, I have my moments playing great and playing terrible.
If there is one special quality that might be heavenly then it is the artist
composing or performing that beautiful piece of music in the moment, and I
never experienced that moment being connected with 432hz in any way.

~~~
spraak
Drop tuning is different than the actual frequency to which the instrument is
tuned. You could tune up or down as many steps as you want and you might still
be at A=440Hz. To try this you need a chromatic tuner which lets you change
the frequency of the A note.

------
kelvin0
This article is obviously written by a Nazi to cover their tracks :)

------
acqq
If you lived in Europe, most of the films you've watched on TV were in the
(when insisting on the exactness) "wrong" pitch: recorded with A = 440 Hz, but
played at A = 458.3 Hz. Have you ever noticed?

[http://www.michaeldvd.com/Articles/PALSpeedUp/PALSpeedUp.asp](http://www.michaeldvd.com/Articles/PALSpeedUp/PALSpeedUp.asp)

And the 432 Hz tone became exactly 450 Hz using the same transfer.

------
TylerE
There has been considerable pitch inflation over time... Back in the 1700's
tunings as low as A400 weren't unusual, and even lower wasn't unheard of.

------
chrislgrigg
For any Pantera fans here, Dimebag is said to have tuned somewhere between
425-435 Hz for all of their albums after Cowboys From Hell.

------
hussong
There's also the argument that 432 Hz is more in tune with our planet, see
"Cosmic Octave" by Hans Cousto.

~~~
Torgo
You shouldn't have been modded down since the origins of this idea come
directly from Kepler's Harmony of the Spheres.

------
cjbenedikt
Orchestras in Europe mostly use 442 pitch. This was really started because the
recording industry liked a more "brilliant" sound. It also lead to some
disastrous destruction of old string instruments which couldn't withstand the
high pressure of steel strings being tuned to 442 to and broke.

------
patwolf
I always liked the idea of standardizing on notes with the formula Cx =
2^(x+4)Hz. In reality it's fairly arbitrary, but in this method the frequency
would follow numbers familiar to programmers, e.g.

C5 = 512Hz C6 = 1024Hz C7 = 2048Hz

In such a method, 'A' would be closer to 431Hz, so slightly flatter than the
440 we use now.

------
djtriptych
A second is also pretty close to the time between adult heartbeats at rest.
There is some evidence that the human heart rate can quicken or slow in
accordance with rhythm in music. Wonder if that changes anyone's argument in
here.

~~~
alexbeloi
A 1% error in approximating a second by a heartbeat will cause an approx 4hz
error in the frequency.

Here's a chart of the distribution of heartrates found in random middle-aged
people measured over 24hours:
[https://d1ieb9vw5zjdt6.cloudfront.net/content/europace/7/2/1...](https://d1ieb9vw5zjdt6.cloudfront.net/content/europace/7/2/104/F1.large.jpg)

Source:
[http://europace.oxfordjournals.org/content/7/2/104](http://europace.oxfordjournals.org/content/7/2/104)

------
alexk7
Another source of information about this subject (PDF):
[http://www.wam.hr/sadrzaj/us/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf](http://www.wam.hr/sadrzaj/us/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf)

------
snarfy
When I was a teenager I had the idea that 60 cycle hum has a similar,
unsettling characteristic. The key of C is probably the most popular, and 60hz
is a B note which causes a dissonant tension when played together.

------
nullc
People love to waste their time talking about high sampling rate audio whos
effects can't be demonstrated in blind listening tests.

At least people can actually hear the difference between a=432Hz and a=440Hz.
:)

------
mcguire
" _There are millions of people in the world who believe that Goebbels
dictated the tuning to make people feel more anxious and warlike._ "

Well, tens. Possibly ones.

------
mediaserf
440 Hz is also the standard telephone dial tone in the US.

~~~
sp332
Dial tones are a chord of 440 and 350
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precise_Tone_Plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precise_Tone_Plan)
This follows on from DTMF's use of pairs of tones for signalling.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-tone_multi-
frequency_sign...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-tone_multi-
frequency_signaling)

~~~
finnh
I love the scene in Adaptation where a tripping Meryl Streep and Chris Cooper
harmonize the dial tone chord while talking on the phone.

------
matchagaucho
Given the number of aging Rockers tuning down to Eb, I thought the article was
going to make a _physical stamina_ argument :-)

------
mutagen
Here's the rant I posted to Facebook when someone posted about this a couple
of years ago. The site that was on Facebook 404s, including the Wayback
Machine, so I can't share all the craziness:

The simplest argument against this is the casual way your typical garage bands
tune. Not everyone is busting out the tuners and dialing up 440 Hz, when the
guitar player figures out they're out of tune with the bass they just tune up
to wherever they're at. With strings stretçhing, drop D tuning, and tuning
down a half step, most bands would have hit the 'magic' 432 Hz every other
practice and would have stayed there if it had any special properties. And
this isn't just me and my buddies in the garage but musicians of nearly every
style, genre, and background around the world. We'd revolt if we found our
magic 432 Hz and then some clown brought a keyboard in that was at 440 Hz.
This simply doesn't happen.

The 'cymatics' demonstrations are great, even the professors I work for get
excited about how these demonstrate standing waves in materials. Unfortunately
for the 432 Hz people the wave patterns depend on the vibrating materials. I
make music out of vibrating strings, resonating wood and digital beeps and
boops instead of square plates of metal (nothing against square plates of
metal, I'd use those too). So maybe they should start by making pretty
pictures of sand on top of a guitar to have a point with the cymatics. Also,
the tuner they keep showing for the notes in their video shows their
frequencies sharp or flat. They should at least get their notes right. They're
also using a modulated tone with harmonics which introduces all kinds of
questions about whether they're trying to prove a point or just make cool
patterns with the sand. But really, who cares if it sounds good, right?
Seriously, if you like your music 'detuned' to 432, go for it.

I've got a theory that altering familiar music is a great way to get us in
different moods. We like remixes, right? So a 432 Hz retune might be just the
thing to mellow out to. Likewise, a 448 Hz retune might be just the kick in
the ass I need in the morning to get going. So retune all you like.

I do have a technical quibble with the suggested method in Audacity, the
resample will do bad things to the high end of the music, all those harmonics
and partials and stuff (of course, some feel all that is lost in digital music
anyway so YMMV). The Audacity wiki talks about better ways to do frequency
shifts. I definitely wouldn't do this to anything that has been digitally
compressed at any point, your mp3 folders and itunes collection will lose even
more when you start pitch shifting them. Rip the original CDs and mess with
the .wav files or get the FLAC files if you're serious about retuning your
music collection.

The real way to test their idea would be to blind test a bunch of music you've
never heard before, some that has been pitch shifted to a variety of
frequencies including 432 Hz and some that is unaltered. Score the music and
your emotions after each song and see if there is a pattern to the pitch
shifting. Now do this to a bunch of people and see if there are patterns in
cultures, age groups, musical preferences, etc.

~~~
acchow
> The simplest argument against this is the casual way your typical garage
> bands tune. Not everyone is busting out the tuners and dialing up 440 Hz,
> when the guitar player figures out they're out of tune with the bass they
> just tune up to wherever they're at. With strings stretçhing, drop D tuning,
> and tuning down a half step, most bands would have hit the 'magic' 432 Hz
> every other practice and would have stayed there if it had any special
> properties. And this isn't just me and my buddies in the garage but
> musicians of nearly every style, genre, and background around the world.
> We'd revolt if we found our magic 432 Hz and then some clown brought a
> keyboard in that was at 440 Hz. This simply doesn't happen.

I don't really understand what you're saying here. If you tune casually by
ear, then of course when a digital keyboard comes in at 440 you will be off.
Maybe higher, maybe lower. But you will be off. Unless you're saying 440 has
some "special properties"...

~~~
taejo
They're saying that _if_ 432 Hz had special properties, then they'd randomly
hit upon it because of the random drift of tuning, and notice that it was
better than other tunings; if the keyboardist then came along and insisted on
440 Hz, they'd revolt because it was worse.

But they DON'T revolt, because 432 Hz is no better or worse than 440, 450,
429, 490, or anything else in that range.

------
hprotagonist
True Qwghlmanian tuning is far superior.

~~~
drivingmenuts
True, but banging a silver spoon on an aged stoat is problematic.

I can never find the right spoon.

------
VeejayRampay
As a Frenchman, I chuckled at "In Britain, however, the French standard was
interpreted in an erroneous way, due to which British orchestras commonly
tuned to A = 439 Hz."

NOTE: I hope the word chuckle isn't interpreted as condescending, I only meant
that this story is almost a perfect parable for our relationship with Great
Britain throughout history, one of mutual defiance and refusal to acknowledge
the other party as an equal even though I've always felt that there is some
hidden love and respect going on at a deeper level on both sides.

~~~
Normal_gaussian
As a Brit, my reaction to a Frenchman is one of disgust as I reach for my
insults. Yet there are few countries I would turn to so quickly in the search
for a sane and good friend.

Perhaps it is easiest to say:

Where the USA has Russia, we have France. Where the USA has Canada, we have
France.

~~~
na85
Does it work the other way? I'm Canadian and a huge part of our culture is
defined by the ways we are unlike Americans.

Can't imagine Anglo-French culture works quite like that.

~~~
fl0wenol
And as an American, I don't know anyone who doesn't like Canada or Canadians,
while simultaneously not understanding what makes it different other than
basically superficial stuff (i.e. french language, metric, being polite, etc.)

So I don't think we have that England/France relationship at all either. It
seems pretty special on the world stage.

From anyone familiar with it, is New Zealand and Australia's relationship at
all similar to either Canada and USA or England and France?

~~~
Normal_gaussian
NZ/Aus is pretty special. Most analogous to USA/Canada

The original point was that Britain/France have the superficial differences
that let us be friends (USA/Canada) yet we have some deeper differences and
historical differences that let us be enemies (USA/Russia).

The nice part of it is that we can carrot and stick ourselves with one
neighbour, instead of making our enemy the devil incarnate.

------
DominikR
Funny conspiracy theory but I have to say that following Occam's razor I would
have reach the conclusion that it was indeed Goebbels who was behind it all as
the presumably correct historical explanation is quite convoluted.

On the other hand for the Goebbels theory to be plausible I only need to
evaluate: Did Goebbels have the power to influence this all across Europe? Yes
he definitely had the power to do so.

Actually it wouldn't even be that crazy to believe this as the Nazis believed
in all kinds of crazy mystical druid magic nonsense. (That Hitler could have
sent people to search for the Ark of the Covenant as depicted in "Raiders of
the Lost Ark" isn't that far fetched)

~~~
nzp
Hitler himself was very intolerant of any of this mysticism business. All
these activities and societies were banned in Germany once they came to power.
There was a number of people, in SS mainly, who were deeply into mysticism,
and that was tolerated because of their status. So Hitler wouldn't have sent
people to search for the Arc, but Himmler & co. might. Just another
illustration of a common misconception about nazi-fascist regimes: they are
regarded as highly organized, “precise“, bureaucracies, when in fact they were
run mostly arbitrary and ad hoc, a consequence of the Fuhrer Principle.

~~~
DominikR
Well, I have no reason to doubt you regarding Hitler's personal beliefs, but I
wouldn't call it a total misconception.

I live in a German speaking country and the people here who still follow this
ideology are frequently into the same insane mysticism. Of that I'm 100% sure
because I've seen it quite often.

~~~
nzp
Oh, there's definitely a phenomenon of widespread taste for the occult in Nazi
movements. I was just trying to point out that the bulk efforts of Nazi German
state and agenda weren't influenced by that in an “official” way. But people
like Himmler were obsessed, and they could get away with it with Hitler
because they were otherwise useful to him. Of course, it's hard to say what's
official and what's not when it comes to such regimes because of the ad hoc
system of rule I mentioned: every figurehead had their own fiefdom so to say,
governed mostly arbitrarily by their will, as long as it didn't conflict with
Hitler's overall agenda, itself arbitrary and dependent upon whatever he came
up with.

------
fabiofzero
So. Much. Bullshit.

~~~
phpnode
This isn't a very helpful comment, what do you mean?

------
d--b
I've heard that in some caribbean islands, they tune at 420.

------
gkya
Well all that is is a myth about a certain frequency of A4, not really a
conspiracy theory.

------
loop-programmer
The King's Chamber in the Great Pyramid of Giza is tuned to 440 Hz, so I'm
going to go ahead and say 440 Hz is correct.

------
fibo
Mathematician Here: Pitagora, who discovered music, studied that the lower
sound we can Here clear is 27hz, and 432 is a multiple of 27. 27hz is A, and
so it is 432hz.

432hz makes a lot of sense, other than that it is up to the director if the
orchestra tune on 432 or 440, but since the vibration is so powerful,
especially the resonance, it makes sense to use 432 to keep harmony, in my
opinion.

~~~
dspig
Hmm, it's not as if Pythagoras could measure exactly 27 Hz, or that we all
hear down to exactly 27.00, or that it's easy to generate a pure tone that low
without clearly audible harmonics. So I guess I'm not convinced.

