
Life and death on a superyacht - camtarn
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/may/26/superyachts-something-goes-wrong-raise-the-anchor
======
blackrock
To be honest, when I see all these excesses of the super rich, I just want to
puke.

I am dumbfounded how the normal people can just celebrate it, and dream that
they too can one day become one of these billionaires.

And yes, while it is true, that some people can truly rise from rags to
riches, or create a computer program that can take over the world. For the
majority of us, the odds are not in our favor. You can work hard, or work
smart all your life, but you will never become rich.

It takes money to make money. There is no truer maxim than that.

These people live the life of luxury and pleasure, while the rest of us can
barely make ends meet. And I'm not talking about the programmers, but rather,
the other people that aren't blessed to have well paying jobs.

Sometimes, I think that there should be a legal limit on the amount of wealth
that someone can accrue.

But even this doesn't solve the problems that our society is facing. It
doesn't solve the homelessness. It doesn't solve the expensive housing crisis.
Or the student loan crisis.

Meanwhile, for the rich, life is great. Technology is abundant. Money just
makes more money. Opportunities are plenty, if you have the right connections.

Anyways.. back to the grindstone. When I become a billionaire, I'm going to
buy myself a super yacht too.

~~~
retrac98
It doesn’t need to be this way!

Billionaire level wealth aside, amassing a few million over the course of a
lifetime isn’t as difficult as people think, it just requires discipline.

Live well within your means and invest your saved money in assets
consistently, compounding and time will do the rest.

Most rich people get there slowly, and don’t appear to live a rich person’s
lifestyle. Conversely, a lot of people who appear rich have little accumulated
wealth.

If you’d like to know more, Have a read of “The millionaire next door” and “I
will teach you to be rich”. They changed my outlook on what being wealthy
meant, and I’m now putting thousands onto my net worth every month in a
automated way.

~~~
foepys
> and I’m now putting thousands onto my net worth every month

Lucky you. A lot of people I know don't even make thousands per month. They
make less than $2,000 after taxes. With this, accumulating millions isn't
possible, not even slowly. And even these people are way better off than
other's who barely make $1,000 or even less.

~~~
closeparen
Suppose you make $24k. Investing $2400/yr from age 22 and earning 5% returns,
you investments pay $540/mo in today's dollars by age 65 [0]. Add in $1,110 in
tdoay's dollars from Social Security [1] and you're at 85% income replacement.

Of course there are big problems with saving 10% of so little, and your
retirement account could be even more at risk in a financial emergency, but in
principle retirement works up and down the income ladder.

[0]
[https://retirementplans.vanguard.com/VGApp/pe/pubeducation/c...](https://retirementplans.vanguard.com/VGApp/pe/pubeducation/calculators/RetirementIncomeCalc.jsf)

[1] [https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/quickcalc/](https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/quickcalc/)

~~~
lkrubner
" _and earning 5% returns_ "

This is basically impossible for reasons explained here:

[https://voxeu.org/article/suprasecular-
stagnation](https://voxeu.org/article/suprasecular-stagnation)

I'm old enough to recall the boom of the 1990s. Me and my professional friends
were constantly invited to come to seminars about investing. All the mutual
funds were trying to convince us to invest in the stock market. At that time,
the stock market was booming, so it was easy to believe that investing in the
stock market was a legitimate way to become wealthy.

All of the pitches recited the same set of numbers: we could invest in low
risk mutual funds and get 12% returns, or we could invest in high risk mutual
funds and get 16% returns. It was explained that when we were young we should
prefer high risk strategies, and as we got older we should prefer lower risk
strategies.

Then the crash of 2001 happened. Nasdaq took 10 years to come back to life.
The stock market was flat for many, many years.

Around 2003 we started getting invitations to seminars that taught us how
important it was to invest in real estate. We were told that the value of
homes had never gone down, in all of USA history. It was the safest
investment, and had significant returns.

Then the crash of 2008 happened. My friends who had bought homes were
underwater. Even as recently as 2015, I still had friends who owed more on
their homes than the homes were worth.

These notions that it is easy to get stable long term returns has not been
born out by my experience, or the experience of any of my professional peers.

Our actual experience was very well described by the Bible:

" _I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor
the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men
of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance
happeneth to them all._ "

[http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/9-11.htm](http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/9-11.htm)

~~~
closeparen
And yet the annualized rate of return of a total stock market index from 1990
to 2017 is 9.82%. There are absolutely booms and busts. It’s absolutely not
stable when you look inside the cycles. But there are, reliably, cycles.
Period and amplitude vary. But on a long enough time horizon, it works out.
It’s also expected to decree as your risk exposure as you get closer to
retirement to mitigate the risk of retiring at an unlucky time.

~~~
lkrubner
And yet, starting tomorrow, we might be at the start of another down cycle
like the one that ran from 1966 to 1982. That was 16 years. For any actual
living individual, it would be life changing, in a bad way. Even for young
people. From 1966 to 1982 the nominal stock market index declined slightly, at
a time when inflation was in the double digits, so the real rate of return was
horrible.

~~~
closeparen
Yes - no one is proposing that one can retire in 16 years. The S&P 500 over a
40-year working career from 1966 to 2006 returned 5.57% after inflation [0].

[0]
[http://www.moneychimp.com/features/market_cagr.htm](http://www.moneychimp.com/features/market_cagr.htm)

------
eric_h
I was once invited by (and paid for by) a billionaire investor in the company
I worked for to a resort in the Bahamas patroned exclusively by the rich and
famous. The extent of the service offered by the (mostly black, Bahamian
staff) — appearing, disappearing and offering way more attentive assistance
than any reasonable person needs made me downright uncomfortable. It was
lovely to be in paradise, but being waited on hand and foot just seemed
wretchedly excessive.

[edit: spelling]

~~~
ggg9990
I think Americans particularly dislike this obsequious type of service. People
from other countries love it. Steve Jobs famously had very little household
help and their family did their own household chores for a very simple reason
that he couldn’t buy his way out of — he didn’t like strangers in his fucking
house all the time. The best writing on this is of course David Foster Wallace
for Harper’s.

~~~
Lewton
As a European currently in the states

What the f are you talking about

We’re completely creeped out by the toilet assistants that no one bats an eye
at.... And you’re the country where some states won’t let you pump your own
gas

Steve jobs and David foster Wallace is seen as outsiders, to claim they
represent the attitude of Americans is absurd

~~~
ggg9990
I wasn’t really talking about Europeans as the people who love it. More like
China, India, Latin America.

------
drcross
There are 3,287 road deaths each and every day. I think this article is
reaching when they have to go back as far as 2010 for an example.

~~~
throwaway010718
After reading, it does seem like a megayacht is an overall safe place to work.

In contrast as a teenager I worked the register at a convenience store in NYC
for less than minimum wage selling cigarettes and lottery tickets to the
poorest people in the city. At the time "convenience store clerk" was the most
deadly job in the US and I really thought I wouldn't live to be an adult.
There was also an 11 year old boy who was employed at that store for 25% of
minimum wage (not a typo). The boy worked from 5AM to 7PM on Saturdays and was
kept in the basement where he used a razor blade to prep magazines and
newspapers that didn't sell.

If you had given any of us a chance to work on a yacht, cross the Atlantic,
and leave with a few $Ks in savings, we would have taken it even if the
survival rate was 50%. And especially if people would still be writing about
our deaths years later. Even now, I doubt the death of a convenience store
clerk would make the local news.

~~~
Spooky23
Not to minimize your experience, but we have no idea what the actual safety
statistics are, because they don’t exist.

When your employer is a holding company in Cayman Islands, operating a ship
flying a flag of convenience from some random country, located in yet another
random country, expectations are limited... who would an accident be reported
to?

~~~
stickfigure
I agree that actual safety statistics probably do not exist.

But why would you assume they are especially unfavorable? People crew all
kinds of boats, big and small. Many do it for fun, on their own boats, in
places where law enforcement is barely present.

"People sometimes get hurt on boats", sure. This fact doesn't stir much
outrage.

------
jonathankoren
I've been watching this thread all day, not one person has mentioned that the
entire article has an undercurrent of the unaccountability of the super rich.

The article specifically mentions how the yachts move from port to port, have
their ownership hidden, and constantly change flags, to avoid taxes and to
avoid giving the legal protections their workers would have if they were
employed on land. Where even the death of a crew member is shrugged off.

This is article is about callousness.

------
gaius
_gone to local bars to celebrate sailing across the Atlantic. Faith had been
locked up for the night, and Michael climbed to its top in an attempt to get
inside via an unofficial emergency entrance. An inquest found he fell from the
top deck, hit his head on the quay and drowned_

It’s a stretch to blame that on the owner of the boat. He could have been
drunk and climbed scaffolding to get back into his apartment.

~~~
lmm
If someone climbed scaffolding to get back into their tied cottage because the
owner had locked it up while they were out, we would blame the owner.

~~~
al_chemist
He was drunk. Top deck is around 15 meters climb. Previous name of this boat
was Vertigo.

------
SergeAx
Former yacht pro here, been employed as a first mate by Russian minigarch (I
am Russian too). Working on a yacht is indeed dangerous and all safety
precautions must be taken. All cases described in an article are examples of
deadly negligence: one should wear life west when operating tender boat after
sunset, one should use additional harness line while hanging on significant
height, and one definitely should not try to jump on a boat from pier after
drunk night (did it once on my vacation, was centimeters from poor chap's
fate, lesson learned).

I don't see, however, how's boat owners are responsible for this except hiring
slightly wrong people to manage and command their expensive property.

------
awat
It feels like this piece was written under the directive of write about super
yachts and they sort of just made it fit.

------
jedberg
I guess I'm not cut out to be a yacht owner, because I assume I would treat my
crew the same way I treat my employees now -- demand that they try to stick to
a 40 hour work week, feed them, and make sure they are well rested and being
safe.

I guess I would have to ask that magic yacht designer to design one that had
double the normal crew quarters so that they didn't have to work doubles.

~~~
al_chemist
Crew on your superyacht is not your employees, it's a service. It's more like
a hairdresser or barista. Do you ask your barista if they had enough sleep? Do
you ask your hotel room cleaner if they ate well? Do you have another bedroom
for your dogwalker?

Your employees and you are the team. You hunt together, you win together, you
celebrate together. You may know the name of a waiter, but you don't have the
same relationship with them, right?

~~~
jedberg
Given that these people would live in my "house", I would hire people that
would be interesting to have around when they're not doing their job, so I
would assume I would get to know them better than those other folks.

I equate more to the nanny we have now -- she's only here about 15 hours a
week, but we chat all the time, I know all about her family, and I've seen her
engagement video.

~~~
al_chemist
Given that this is your fifth "house" where you spend about a month per year
(maybe a week at a time), you wouldn't even be a person who hires them. And
when you do spend time on your superyacht with your guests Bill Gates and
Steve Jobs you wouldn't even be interested if your masseur is an interesting
person. Because you can either hear about creation of Mac from the creator of
Mac directly OR see your masseur engagement video. It's your vacation time and
it's your decision what would give you more out of your life.

------
golergka
> None of the owners attended the three British men’s funerals.

Are they trying to spin it as something negative? Why the hell would you
intrude into a private and family matter of a person you most likely have
talked to only a couple of times in your entire life.

------
matte_black
Wonder if there might be any positions for software developers open on some of
these super yachts.

~~~
HarryHirsch
Doesn't Peter Thiel promote "seasteading"? It's like Galt's Gulch, but with
Norovirus.

~~~
rhaps0dy
Huh, what does norovirus have to do with this?

~~~
ssmmww
It’s presumably a reference to the fact that norovirus outbreaks are common on
cruise ships.

------
walru
Doesn't this hold true for anywhere outside a major city? If it's going to
take you hours to get to a hospital or a market, or for anyone to come to you,
theoretically you're in the same predicament.

~~~
robotkdick
Part of the issue is the lack of legal structure for ships at sea. Once you're
on the boat and outside the legal boundary of a country, the captain is
essentially a dictator with little legal recourse for complaints.

~~~
barbegal
Except in all the cases highlighted here, the boat was moored up in a port
where the local jurisdiction would apply.

~~~
jonhendry18
Risky maintenance activities don't stop when you're at sea.

------
mn245
Merchant navy deck officer from deep sea tankers and containers. 2nd off

we have had the International safety mangment code for decades.

They havent, these yachts need to be seen crewed and vetted the same level as
commercial shipping.

The real problem, unlike commercial shipping yachts dont really have a reason
to exist and attract a certain type of person.

Most of the accidents described would have been prevented if commercial code
was in place and adhered to.

Maritime labour convention for rest hours??

Not to put to blunt a point on it, the owners pay alot not to care. Theres not
a bottom line.

------
zappo2938
Worse than the slips and falls is the unregulated use of chemicals with the
crew not protected by OSHA.

