
Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow - Anon84
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/29/business/sovereign-citizens-financial-crime.html#
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ochenvoysim
This insanity is HUGE in American prisons. There was a book called (I think)
"One Man Out" where the author describes a case where someon used Sovereign
Citizen declarations to get themselves released from incarceration supposedly.
This somehow spread to nearly every correctional facility in the country and
because many inmates are mentally ill in some fashion they eat this up (and
it's a possible Get Out of Jail Free card, and when you're serving 60+ years
I'm sure you'd try damn near anything to be released). Usually this results in
just a lot of talk about becoming sovereign citizens and getting, and getting
the millions of dollars held in some secret bank account attached to your
social security number... and ends with some idiot filing liens against the
warden of the prison (not making this shit up) and then the prisons banning
all Uniform Commercial Code reference books from the institutions. I don't
remember why but something to do with the whole name in all caps means you're
actually a corp of some flavor - social security card is a bank account -
there's millions of dollars backing that SS number - you can file liens as a
corp against the warden for restricting your corp's free trade or traveling
rights or some such fuckery -- then the lien will force the warden by the laws
of the UCC to let you out..... It's insane, even for prison. edit -- found an
example of the lien's real effects:
[https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-
xpm-2001-04-08-0...](https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-
xpm-2001-04-08-0104082166-story.html)

~~~
crooked-v
This Canadian judge's ruling includes pretty much a full reference book on
this kind of weird stuff and its attempted application to court systems
(Canadian and U.S.), which he calls "Organized Pseudolegal Commercial
Argument":
[https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012a...](https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html)

~~~
ochenvoysim
oh man, labeling the preachers of this as "gurus" is perfect -- it's always
one pseudo-intellectual convincing a group of followers lol. This really is
the most organized and comprehensive summary for rebutting this nonsense in
court that I've ever seen. I thought it was only an American issue... huh. It
has to be exhausting dealing w/delusional people.

~~~
ochenvoysim
"vexatious litigants" \-- lmfao

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habnds
> Sovereigns, who sometimes call themselves “freemen” or “state citizens,”
> have no foundational document, but broadly they subscribe to an alternate
> version of American history. The tale can vary from sovereign to sovereign,
> but it goes roughly like this: At some point, a corporation secretly usurped
> the United States government, then went bankrupt and sought aid from
> international bankers. As collateral, the corporation offered the financiers
> … us. As sovereigns tell it, your birth certificate and Social Security card
> are not benign documents, but contracts that enslave you.

~~~
volak
The summary is slightly inadequate. There wasn't a corporation that usurped
the government - the government made corporations of everyone

Basically it goes like this -

* SSN Act (created after the market crash) was created not only to provide faux "retirement" accounts but also "incorporate" every citizen of the country as a company upon birth.

* New baby John Smith instantiates company JOHN SMITH with account 123-45-6789

* ALL banking and financials go through your company account JOHN SMITH (check your checks, statements, loans). This included Liens, child support, taxes, alimony, etc.

* The line you sign your name on your check is not actually a line but very tiny "Authorized Representative" IE: John Smith is acting on behalf of JOHN SMITH

Why?

Because Feds didn't have the power to enact laws on individual citizens at the
time. So they created companies out of every citizen which they can then force
to pay into Social Security (among other things). This has evolved over time
granting the government the power much more power over individuals through
their "shell companies"

Some sovereign citizens claim to be able to gain sole control over their shell
corporation JOHN SMITH and with that all government encroachments on their
rights via liens and taxes are invalid.

Disclaimer: I have no position on this conspiracy theory just providing a
better summary

~~~
joe_the_user
I've always been impressed by an odd contrast within theories of this sort.
The theories posit that the government acted illegally in various ways. But at
the same time, the theories posit that despite this, there is some deeper
framework of law that the government still has to obey. Yet what force would
cause this deeper law to prevail if the state was committed to its conspiracy?

Of course, this sort of thing could only appeal in the US, where a lot of the
laws aren't product of a giant conspiracy but rather a complex patchwork of
local, state and federal strictures, so a spew of incoherent legal nonsense
takes a given court office a while to deal with.

~~~
tormeh
I dunno. Germany has the same kind of thing. Search for "Reichsbürger".
Essentially these people reject the modern German nation, and say they belong
to one reich or another - either the Kaiserreich or the Nazi one.

What these conspiracy people don't get is that a nation exists as a
consequence of its subjects and warriors loyalty to it and obedience of it.
It's just a power structure. All the legalities and voting and bureaucracy
around it are just there because it's much easier for everyone to live with a
power structure that behaves predictably, justly and generally nicely. But the
legalities are not actually necessary. At the core the answer to "Why?" is
"Because we can".

Note that I'm generally pro-government. I'd rather have one nice power
structure to deal with than a world operating after the rules of school, where
I have to protect my lunch money myself. This is just reality.

~~~
krapp
Or as attorney Leonard French said regarding one Sovereign Citizen case on his
Lawful Masses podcast[0]:

"We live in reality, where the four laws are not common law, statutory, code
and... whatever. The real laws are the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear
force, the electromagnetic force, and gravity. Everything else is fair game."

[0][https://youtu.be/nqPiQiinDTs?t=3143](https://youtu.be/nqPiQiinDTs?t=3143)

~~~
AstralStorm
The list is not exhaustive, we're looking for loopholes all the time.

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wool_gather
There's an amazing exposition of the whole Sovereign Citizen thing from
several years back by a Canadian justice's ruling in "Meads v. Meads":
[https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012a...](https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html)

It covers a lot of ground -- lots of contextual information -- and is quite
long, but readable (and entertaining).

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throwaway66677
While I think the “sovereign movement” is pretty laughable in both theory and
action - I think this article smacks of a total lack of even attempting to
understand where these people are coming from. It’s the same people that write
these articles that are surprised by the vitriol directed at the press or “how
trump won”

The real question is what is driving these people to behave in such an
irrational way? Might it be the ever increasing reach of government into
people’s lives or the fact that many in positions of power in the US seem to
think of that the people should serve the government rather than the
government serving the people...

~~~
crooked-v
> The real question is what is driving these people to behave in such an
> irrational way?

From what I understand, a substantial part of it is scam artists taking
advantage of people who fundamentally lack understanding about the legal
system. See this judge's ruling that contains a substantial guide on the
subject, and look at the section "The OPCA Guru":
[https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012a...](https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html)

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cmurf
The FBI definitely considers them a domestic terrorism movement, for some
time.
[https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2010/april/so...](https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2010/april/sovereigncitizens_041310/domestic-
terrorism-the-sovereign-citizen-movement)

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Pharmakon
They do this under the rubric of “bleeding the beast” as they put it. The FLDS
did this too, and it’s a pretty common, and massively self-serving tactic of
many fringe groups. Personally I like it, because it opens a path for legal
sanctions irrespective of the groups ideology or religion. They can believe
whatever crazy shit they want, but fraud and tax evasion are still crimes.

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user982
Enjoy this video of sovereign citizens running headfirst into reality:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUgmc7kKqOI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUgmc7kKqOI)

~~~
hannasanarion
I love the Australian one, the guys think that having a rental car means they
can break any laws, and then when they're stopped they say "Am I under
arrest?" as if it's the magic words that make the cops go away.

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ykevinator
Reminds me of Joel osteen

~~~
schredder
Go on…

~~~
ykevinator
in that it's a con

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tmp192489
This is kind of related, but someone told me yesterday that if you move to
Puerto Rico you pay 0 federal personal income tax (note: if you live anywhere
else in the world as a US citizen you still pay taxes on your income), and
although they have their own taxation system it's basically 0 for newcomers
because they want to attract investment.

If I want to sell a large chunk of capital gains in a single year, is there
anything stopping me from moving to PR for 6months+1 day to a year and paying
nothing on it?

~~~
sokoloff
Look up Act 20 and Act 22.

It’s not just “take a vacation in PR for 183 days”. You have hoops to jump
through and need to _actually move_ there. I think cap gains rate becomes 4%
on the PR part, with some amount of apportioning between PR and prior gains.

~~~
tmp192489
What kind of hoops? If you're going to do a single transaction for $500k+ that
is a huge difference...

~~~
sokoloff
Seriously, read up on Act 20 and 22 (whichever applies). Don’t take random
2-minute internet blurbs on it. You enter into a contract with Puerto Rico,
you move there, you make required donations, comply with the other rules as
required.

Set aside several evenings to do the basic reading, then if still interested,
engage in a PR-based expert counsel to ensure you both understand and that you
do everything correctly.

For me, it would only make sense if the amount in question was mid 7 figures
if you’re just doing it for taxes and didn’t otherwise want to live in PR.

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isoprophlex
> Rich people find loopholes. Why not us?

and rich corporations, too. indeed, why not us?

~~~
crooked-v
The difference is that the loopholes rich people use generally actually exist,
while the "loopholes" advertised by sovereign citizens are obvious nonsense
like "by filing the right paperwork I can make the government give me a
million dollars they're keeping in a secret bank account for a government-
created corporation that's named after me except with all caps".

