
Tesla Model S Outperforms Aston Martin - treistab2
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/video-tesla-model-s-vs-aston-martin-rapide-s
======
MSM
I really hate these comparisons. What is the Model S trying to be? A luxury
car? A sports car? A trip vehicle? Every article I read compares the Model S
to some abhorrently expensive vehicle that does some specific thing poorly in
comparison to Model S. I'd be much more interested in reading a top to bottom
comparison between the Model S and a similar car. Do it with a BMW M3 or
something, a reasonably priced luxury car that still _tries_ to tailor to the
sporty crowd.

The Rapide is a $150k car that is outperformed by a $25k Ford Mustang. No one
has ever gone into the draft room and thought to themselves "If only I could
design a vehicle that cost less to produce than the Rapide AND was sportier!".
Outperforming it is not an achievement.

~~~
rdl
I personally cross-shop the Tesla Model S and the Audi S7. A future Model S
AWD and an Audi A7/S7 TDI would be an even more direct comparison. They price
out (loaded) to within $5k, if you take into account the $2500 federal tax
credit and sales tax exemption in WA. The depreciation on a diesel and on a
Tesla are probably comparable. Tesla would be clear savings on fuel costs,
maintenance, and probably would have more curb appeal at least in SFBA. I'd
probably take the Audi A7 3.0 TDI if I needed AWD today.

What I really want is the Tesla S4/S5 or 335is-equivalent, though.

~~~
r00fus
> What I really want is the Tesla S4/S5 or 335is-equivalent, though.

Sorry, I don't think the tech is there. Either the range would suffer (due to
more compact frame allowing for fewer cells safely) or the power would be
gimped (to allow for lower overall battery capacity).

Electric cars are competing with the entire petroleum-fuel supply chain, and
as such, are fighting a david vs. goliath battle.

That Tesla does this, has won consistently, and wins with style is why their
stock is up 500% over the past year.

Of course, they've picked their battles, and fighting the S4 or 3 series isn't
one of those they're ready to fight (yet). Maybe, like Apple, they never will
(Apple ceded the enthusiast/gaming desktop market years ago).

~~~
rdl
I guess the question is how much they'd gain in acceleration/performance (and
thus be able to give up on battery capacity) by making the overall vehicle
smaller and (ex-battery) 200-300 pounds lighter, vs. how much space for
battery they'd give up. I don't mind if the S4-replacement costs $60-80k
(loaded) vs. $80-100k for a Model S.

I'd also take a car which had the same general size and chassis as the Model S
but with a larger, more-secure trunk at the cost of seating capacity. My dream
car is a 2-seat coupe with a trunk the size of a compact pickup truck bed.

~~~
gaadd33
Like a Porsche 928?

------
ianstallings
Performance is all well and good but the cost of an aston martin is for fit
and finish in all aspects. Notice the panel gaps on the Tesla versus the Aston
Martin. Notice how the interior looks a little clunky on the Tesla S versus
the hand crafted interior on the AM. Car companies spend decades accounting
for fit and finish and Aston Martin had major issues with it in the past.
Tesla owners know that their cars are essentially still in _beta_ and allow
such things. But eventually that needs to change. And I'm sure it will. It
just takes time and $.

Don't get me wrong, I believe Tesla is an incredible company and doing
something awesome. But there's more to a car than just performance specs.

~~~
ajross
Unquantifiable qualia are always the last refuge of arguments like this. I
guess a "panel gap" can be measured, but I can't even begin to understand how
"clunky" and "hand crafted" are defined (or why they should be in opposition
for that matter).

All that stuff is fine, I guess. There will always be luxury markets, and
that's where the Rapide is aimed, and I'm sure the purchasers like them just
fine.

But that's not where Tesla is aimed. I think there was a Matthew Yglesias post
a few days back about exactly this: look at Tesla's stock price. They're
looking to be another GM or Toyota or Daimler, not just another spit-and-
polish luxury vendor (or Ford subsidiary in this case, I believe).

The real point here is that there's an existing market for performance sedans,
performance is something that can be measured objectively, and Tesla's
offering competes very well.

~~~
ianstallings
Clunky = cheap looking plastics and poor fitted interiors. Hand crafted means,
shocker, _crafted by hand_. Go look at how both are manufactured..

~~~
jlgreco
One is a manufacturing technique, the other is an assessment of quality...

~~~
ianstallings
As I said above, go check out how Aston Martin builds cars by hand and you'll
see the difference. They don't allow imperfections and each engine has the
_builders name on it_. They don't charge $150k a car just because of a luxury
badge on the front. That's what I mean by hand crafted.

Here's an example of their level of effort:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH_JaKvqdh4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH_JaKvqdh4)

Is that good enough for you? Or do you still need clarification? Because I can
cite 90+ years of history.

~~~
jlgreco
I am not doubting that there is a difference, nor am I even doubting that the
Aston is of higher quality. I am pointing out that while manufacturing method
is objective, quality is not. You are talking about two different things.

Better statements would be _" Astons are higher quality than Teslas"_
(subjective), or _" Astons are made by hand and Teslas are not"_ (objective).

~~~
ianstallings
Okay noted. I'll use the _better statements_ next time so you can avoid
throwing an exception in your rigid mind.

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bcaulf
Autocar.uk is an enthusiast news and review site. They are careful about their
reviews and it means a lot that Sutcliffe is so excited after driving the
Model S. He was a professional racer. Autocar have tremendous integrity and
independence unlike many US car mags which ritually praise US models for no
reason other than their origin.

But Autocar also do comparisons that don't really mean much, like a track race
between an SUV and a trackday special. The rolling start race with the Aston
isn't meant to signify anything other than the real world result of the huge
torque in an all electric. When the Model S ships in the UK their review will
be a must read. This is just a little fun.

------
redact207
The car's not perfect, but it is a massive turning point in automotive
history. Electric cars have fumbled at the hands of traditional car
manufacturers who have just tried to swap out the engine and think that's it.
Tesla has not only completely redesigned the car from the ground up, it's also
had to jump start the supporting infrastructure with its super charger
network.

That's a huge but necessary undertaking to make it a viable alternative to
traditional cars with their vast network of petrol stations.

These comparisons between expensive performance cars are fun but they're only
done for entertainment value. Ultimately this car is changing the industry and
the fundamentals to how automotive transport is designed and serviced.

If ever there was a collectors car, decades into the future this will be it.

~~~
vpeters25
> Electric cars have fumbled at the hands of traditional car manufacturers who
> have just tried to swap out the engine and think that's it.

Actually if car manufacturers take an existing, good looking car and swap the
engine with a battery bank it would be something I would be interested in
driving. But instead they somehow make their hybrids and EVs as ugly as
possible.

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realrocker
Tesla Model S is revolutionary in the sense that it's very ordinary.
Everything in there has been done before. Once it becomes a popular choice,
Tesla can make down-graded release of the same technologies at even cheaper
prices. The average drive range in Asian cities is a lot shorter than in the
US. Think of the possibilities!

If only Tesla manufactured auto-rickshaws which is popular in cities like
Bangalore. We would have green, silent and "cool" mobility. We would be still
stuck in traffic jams but hell, it would be a walk in the park compared to
now.

~~~
sliverstorm
_Tesla Model S is revolutionary in the sense that it 's very ordinary_

Of course, take heed from the Insight and Prius of the late 90's vs. the Prius
of the 2000's. You have to hit just the right mark of ordinary but not _too_
ordinary- if it is too weird, people won't buy, but if it's too normal nobody
will notice how progressive and smart and cool you are for buying it.

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deusebio
No one buys an Aston just for the performance. It gets killed in almost every
category. It's much more of an emotional connection than anything else. I love
them, but know there are countless other cars that can destroy it (911, GTR,
etc, etc).

------
etler
I am not a car guy, but the Tesla cars regularly give me goosebumps.

~~~
eksith
Ditto. It's a bit beyond my budget too, but this and the Model-X are really
the top picks for my parking space.

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eliben
The difference in price between fully charging / fueling is particularly
striking. I wonder what this means wrt. electric cars and the environment?
What would our emissions look like if all cars were magically electrical
tomorrow?

~~~
at-fates-hands
Probably worse:

[http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/gases/co2.html](http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/gases/co2.html)

"Electricity is a significant source of energy in the United States and is
used to power homes, business, and industry. The combustion of fossil fuels to
generate electricity is the largest single source of CO2 emissions in the
nation, accounting for about 38% of total U.S. CO2 emissions and 32% of total
U.S. greenhouse gas emissions in 2011. The type of fossil fuel used to
generate electricity will emit different amounts of CO2. To produce a given
amount of electricity, burning coal will produce more CO2 than oil or natural
gas."

A lot of people don't realize the amount of CO2 that electricity produces.

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepstein/2013/08/21/with-
the-...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepstein/2013/08/21/with-the-tesla-
model-s-elon-musk-has-created-a-nice-fossil-fuel-car/)

"The Tesla’s state-of-the-art materials, particularly that $30,000 battery,
take a massive amount of energy to build–and that energy comes from fossil
fuels, particularly coal. In fact, some studies argue that the Tesla battery
takes so much fossil fuel energy to make that the car over its lifetime emits
more CO2 than a gasoline-powered car."

~~~
shawn-furyan
>To produce a given amount of electricity, burning coal will produce more CO2
than oil or natural gas

There are many factors that this statement fails to take into account. Perhaps
most importantly, the efficiency at which that energy is turned into useful
power to propel the vehicle. Further, this is speaking very broadly about
these fuel sources, and so is not directly applicable to specific complex. A
quick google search surfaced a DOE primer[1] on EVs that claims that they are
both "Energy Efficient" since "Electric vehicles convert about 59–62% of the
electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels—conventional gasoline
vehicles only convert about 17–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power
at the wheels." and "Environmentally Friendly" because "EVs emit no tailpipe
pollutants, although the power plant producing the electricity may emit them.
Electricity from nuclear-, hydro-, solar-, or wind-powered plants causes no
air pollutants." On the latter point, power plant technology is increasingly
moving away from dirty coal generation processes in the developed world, so
gas powered vehicles will be at an increasingly great disadvantage.

The EPA also uses a method for rating vehicle fuel efficiency of non-petrol
burning vehicles called eMPG[2] (effective miles per gallon) that takes into
account the energy potential of the ultimate fuel source/sources used by the
vehicle and converts them to the MPG (miles per gallon of petrol) scale.
Electric vehicles rule the top of the rated vehicles followed by a couple
hybrids and deisel compacts. EVs tend to be ~2x more fuel efficient than
similarly sized petrol vehicles when compared by this particular method.

Concerning the Model S in particular, the EPA rates it as the most fuel
efficient large sedan at 95 eMPG. Speaking generally, the only car class (does
not take into account trucks and SUVs) that is led in fuel efficiency
according to the EPA is the Midsize Station Wagon class. It is led by the
Prius Model V, and the class does not seem to have a pure EV option. Every
other class is led in fuel efficiency by an EV.

Finally, according to the EPA's Greenhouse Gas Emissions calculator, the 2013
Tesla model S generates a US average of 250 grams per mile driven of
Greenhouse gas emissions compared to the average new car at 500 gpm[3]. So
half as bad as the average new vehicle in terms of GHG emissions.

P.S. Sorry for the somewhat poorly structured nature of this comment. It
evolved organically along with the research used to produce it.

[1][http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml](http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml)

[2][http://www.epa.gov/carlabel/electriclabelreadmore.htm#2](http://www.epa.gov/carlabel/electriclabelreadmore.htm#2)

[3][http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?zipCode=78641&year=20...](http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?zipCode=78641&year=2013&vehicleId=33368&action=bt3)

[edit: I can never seem to remember that the editor eats up single newlines,
fixed the footnotes section so that they don't all appear on the same line.]

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vwinsyee
I had to enable "Brightcove" in Ghostery in order to see the video. Hope this
helps anyone potentially confused.

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wahsd
Something that came to my mind is that the whole German economy, and Japanese
for that matter, is in for some seriously choppy waters ahead. I think the
Japanese are far more ahead than the Germans, but when you consider just how
much of the German economy is dependent on combustion engine driven vehicles
there have got to be some seriously anxious people in Germany right now. Worse
yet for them if they are not anxious as heck.

~~~
outside1234
You mean like at Toyota, which has the most popular hybrid in the United
States?

Honestly, its Detroit that should be dead scared, the Volt is a piece of crap,
and I don't see anything Hybrid that's interesting.

~~~
post_break
I'd like to hear how the Volt is a piece of crap.

~~~
rpedela
Didn't the Volt have a battery fire problem?

~~~
Agathos
No.

There was an incident in which a wrecked Volt caught fire three weeks after a
crash test. But if you haven't left your car three weeks after a severe side
impact, you probably have bigger problems.

------
hop
Elon had a Mclaren F1 as a daily driver after he sold PayPal, so I wouldn't be
surprised if they came out with a supercar down the road as their tech evolves
and batteries get denser. Ultra low center of gravity, flatter torque curve
with no transmission, order of magnitude less parts than a Ferrari engine...

They could murder it on the very top and low end of the market.

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beachstartup
possibly the most amazing thing about the tesla is it turns computer-guys into
car-guys.

~~~
logicalmind
I know you're kind of generalizing here, but I've been a computer guy and a
car guy for decades. I've been in numerous car clubs for the vehicles I've
owned and raced. I think you'd be surprised how many car guys are in the
computer industry in one way or another. Most modern fuel injected cars have
custom programmable computers that allow the competent programmer to get every
last bit of performance out of their cars.

~~~
beachstartup
what i'm saying is people who never "got it" when it comes to cars are now
doing so, because of the S.

i've heard numerous people (i live in LA) and seen numerous comments on the
internet say that now they "get it" \- that is - they "get" why people would
be "into" cars. like it was a huge mystery before, why someone would be
passionate about automobiles.

it's mind blowing. how can you not "get" why people are into cars (even if you
yourself aren't into cars?)... like, i understand perfectly well why people
are "into" things that i'm not.

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petercooper
Technology is really allowing unexpected results in car tests lately. One of
my recent favorites was AutoExpress's Mercedes A45 vs CLS63 drag race where
the A45 won decisively despite being a mere 2 liter 4 cylinder vs a 5.5 liter
V8:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPzCbTNpPWg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPzCbTNpPWg)
(and I know which one I'll be buying next)

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CamperBob2
Please do not link to auto-playing video pages without indicating that you are
doing so in the headline.

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codex_irl
I enjoy reading about the progress Tesla is making, but I will not consider
buying any electric car until the price is < $30k and I can at least drive
from the bay area to Tahoe and back for a ski weekend on a single charge.

~~~
ntaylor
You'd need a pretty big tank to do that using a gas-operated vehicle; it's
around 400 miles. My Accord V6 gets 250-300 miles on a tank, the Model S gets
around 265.

~~~
redler
One key difference is how low you'd be willing to let your remaining range
drop. You probably wouldn't feel much fear driving around with 40 estimated
miles left in the Accord. But I imagine 40 miles left in a Tesla might cause a
little anxiety. The same-numbered range of a gasoline-powered vehicle is
lengthened by the high confidence of being able to refuel within a few miles.

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Cyph0n
For those who also found the custom video player annoying:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUW0l7bZn1s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUW0l7bZn1s)

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moocowduckquack
So next they need to film them chasing each other in a Bond movie and stick
lasers on the wheels, or something, and have lots of explosions. That's how
you sell high end cars, right?

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ballard
Top Gear UK declared Aston Martins uncool, so comparing anything to them
(without making fun of them) would make the comparee seem less cool.

So the article seems more like a backhanded compliment.

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gilesvangruisen
Impressive as Rapide is both lighter in weight and more powerful than the
Model S (470bhp vs. 416bhp). Both cars have the same amount of torque. (443
lb-ft)

~~~
eliben
This is because you're comparing maximum torque. The actual graph is likely
unlinear and this is where the Tesla is winning.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Correct. An electric motor can output its full amount of torque from 0 RPMs;
this is where an ICE falls down (and hence, the need for an expensive
transmission).

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joshdance
And my desire to buy a Tesla when I can, only increases.

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jpkeisala
Why Tesla is so good when pretty much every other electric car has been
reviewed bad and impractical?

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user2
Elon, take my money.

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scotty79
Next Bond car?

