
AMD Zen 2 Microarchitecture Analysis: Ryzen 3000 and EPYC Rome - rbanffy
https://www.anandtech.com/show/14525/amd-zen-2-microarchitecture-analysis-ryzen-3000-and-epyc-rome
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nvahalik
After all of the fuss about Intel's architecture issues, I'm really left
wondering if AMD is just "totally killing it" and they simply have a superior
product due to something like better processes, or if AMD will end up in the
same bathwater with Intel at some point with a bunch of flaws exposed.

IOW: How is that AMD is now poised to eat Intel's lunch? Is it too good to be
true?

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aiCeivi9
> Is it too good to be true?

It might just not last long enough. Athlon64/X2 also totally destroyed Intel
but Core architecture arrived before AMD was able to grab more market share.

~~~
bryanlarsen
A large part of that was due to illegal action on Intel's part; giving massive
rebates to any manufacturer who agreed to go Intel-only. Intel paid AMD $1.25B
in compensation. Such tactics won't be available to Intel this time around.

~~~
Symmetry
Spending down your warchest to pay manufacturers to use your chips isn't
something that even Intel can keep up forever. If AMD had kept up their
performance lead eventually Intel wouldn't have been able to keep up its
kickbacks.

~~~
TheOperator
Intel doesn't need to do it forever. They need to hold out for Intel 7nm
slated for 2021 and they need 7nm to be good. From a zero sum monopolist
perspective it makes a lot of sense for Intel to be hamstringing AMD here.

What Intel needs to be careful about is while they fend off AMDs attacks in
desktop/server also need to keep an eye on ARM coming after them on mobile.
How long until Linux based Chromebooks come with Qualcomm CPUs like 7cx become
standard? The chips are better than Intels low TDP offerings so long as they
don't have to emulate x86_64. They could spend all their money on a phyrric
victory crushing AMD only to lose a different market.

It's a tough job being king with upstarts always after your neck.

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nevi-me
Previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20152534](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20152534)

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archy_
AMDs really had some amazing improvements, are they close to reaching the
limits on this architecture? When should we expect the next major architecture
change?

~~~
zamadatix
Zen 3 is due 2020 but I personally don't think it will be a very big
iteration. Zen 4 is roadmapped to follow up and will likely change the socket
as well as represent a node shrink, I'd say this one has the most potential
for further shake up on the design.

The popular thing to talk about in the rumor mills has been if they continue
to make it any wider SMT4 as seen in Power may come about.

Personally I think the IO die has the best chance for improvements though,
especially towards EPYC parts which have up to 8 CCXs and a crazy memory
controller to interconnect.

~~~
ksec
Zen 4 is a new socket. Which really give AMD a chance to support DDR5 along
with PCI-E 5.0.

Definitely agree on the IO die. Not sure what plan AMD has with IO die,
currently it is on 14nm only to use up all the Wafer Agreement that had with
GF, and we are not sure how long that agreement last or if it makes sense to
switch the IO die to FD-SOI which is GF's forte at the moment.

But like Dr Lisa Su had said, it is important to shown their clients that they
stick to their roadmap and execute it to perfection. Something Intel hasn't
been doing for the past 3- 4 years.

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nisten
TL:DR it kicks ass.

Can't wait for this to come out and to build a monster 12-core 24-thread
remote vscode server , paired with one of the new pcie4 nvme drives ( 5gbps
read/4gbps writes ) and then and only then will I be able to finally open up
the node_modules folder while running slack at the same time cheers.

~~~
nevi-me
Taking about remote vscode, I'm failing to use it pleasantly from a home fiber
connection to my Xeon server, more than average latency and regular
disconnects. I was hoping that such a setup would keep me going for a few more
months; my old i7 laptop from 2013 no longer copes with my workload, mostly
compiling Rust code.

Zen 2 seems like it'll be pricy in my country for a while, and I'd have really
loved a decent AMD laptop with mobile Zen 2 chips.

Does anyone know if laptop chips are planned, and is there an expected
timeline? Thanks

~~~
rbanffy
If having an in-house server is your thing, there are plenty beefy rackmount
units available on Ebay, from multi-blade clusters to single-image 8-way
machines. Single thread performance will be worse, but throughput is still
pretty impressive.

Also, multi-socket machines are much more interesting than single socket ones.
Plus, if Rust is your thing, the very non-uniform NUMA topology will be an
endless source of cool problems to solve (and I mean that - I love solving odd
problems and inventing problems to solve myself is much less interesting).

~~~
goda90
But watch out for those electricity bills.

~~~
wil421
Don’t forget the 2 new hair dryers in your closet making noise.

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ksec
I so wish the Apple Mac Pro had 2 x 64 Core EPYC in it rather than the Intel
CPU. Although I wonder if macOS is any good at NUMA.

And if anyone know if FreeBSD has improved on NUMA?

~~~
dijit
Seems like Zen2 gets rid of NUMA zones using the "infinity fabric" to a
dedicated on-die memory controller (which is 12nm).

So if your OS/Application is non-NUMA aware and would normally cross NUMA
zones, then AMD is going to crush it.

~~~
rrss
They got rid of the NUMA domains _within a single socket_ , which already
don't exist on Intel CPUs.

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pepijndevos
Is anything known about AMD's mobile plans? I looked into a high-end AMD
laptop today, and their mobile stuff seems mid-range at best, with TDP of 15W
and integrated graphics. The only high-end thing out there seems to be gaming
machines with desktop-class everything. I'd love to be proven wrong, as I'm
kinda in the market for a laptop and I've kinda had it with Intel and
especially Nvidia and their lack of cooperation with Wayland. I'd love to buy
a high-end AMD laptop with dedicated graphics.

~~~
toast0
Zen2 for mobile is expected to come out next year. According to wikipedia the
Zen+ mobile APUs came out in January, top of the line is Ryzen 7 3750H with 4
cores / 8 threads and 35W TDP.

My guess would be Zen2 mobile will make a big difference because of the
thermal improvements -- but I don't think AMD has released any guidance on
what to expect, although I see some rumors about a late November or CES 2020
reveal of Zen2 APUs, possibly with updated (Navi) GPU.

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rrss
Does Linux perf work on Zen 2?

~~~
hadibrais
Not yet. In the meanwhile, you can instead use the latest version of AMD μProf
([https://developer.amd.com/amd-uprof/](https://developer.amd.com/amd-
uprof/)), which does support Zen 2.

