
Should Community Colleges Abolish Algebra? - happy-go-lucky
http://www.npr.org/2017/07/19/538092649/say-goodbye-to-x-y-should-community-colleges-abolish-algebra
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nanolith
The response to low graduation rates can't be to further dumb down the degree.
Every functioning adult should understand algebra. I'd actually argue that
trigonometry should also be included in this list, but that's probably only
useful for adults who build things, and sadly, not very many adults do build
things these days.

Instead of removing Algebra, we need to consider better ways to teach this
subject to people who do not have a lot of the fundamentals in place already.
One of the biggest problems with College Algebra is that it assumes a certain
level of math literacy that isn't universal. Algebra simply isn't that hard of
a subject to master, but it is something that requires a different sort of
teaching strategy than is used at the average community college.

Give me a motivated adult who understands basic arithmetic, and I can help him
or her master algebra in six to eight weeks. We can go from zero to FOIL, and
quadratic to partial fraction decomposition in that amount of time. The key is
to listen and to instill a level of confidence as early as possible in this
process. Many adults consider math to be "hard" \-- not from the perspective
of it actually being hard, which it is -- but from the perspective of "this is
too hard for me to do, because I'm not a math person." Break this mental
block, and anyone can do algebra.

~~~
unabridged
>Give me a motivated adult who understands basic arithmetic, and I can help
him or her master algebra in six to eight weeks. We can go from zero to FOIL,
and quadratic to partial fraction decomposition in that amount of time. The
key is to listen and to instill a level of confidence as early as possible in
this process. Many adults consider math to be "hard" \-- not from the
perspective of it actually being hard, which it is -- but from the perspective
of "this is too hard for me to do, because I'm not a math person." Break this
mental block, and anyone can do algebra.

I used to believe this until I actually tried. Maybe they lied about how much
studying they really did, but I've seen people putting in many hours a week
and still unable to grasp the basics of algebra. I think many of us have never
really been exposed to the thinking power of people at the bottom 10-20% (IQs
below 80-87) , they weren't in our classes in high school. And now these
people are going to college.

~~~
nanolith
I've tutored students in algebra and remedial math in the past. I agree that
it is more challenging to work with adults on the lower end of the
intelligence curve, but even these adults can be taught enough algebra to pass
the final exam.

Different teaching techniques are required for different students. For the
students at the upper edge of the curve, the homework assignments and lectures
are more than enough. For the students near the middle of the curve, some
additional exercises and confidence building may be required. For students
near the bottom of the curve, it will be necessary to break problems into
parts and reinforce smaller parts before building back up to the overall
problems. These students must be taught how to break problems into discrete
steps, and a lot of emphasis needs to be placed in teaching them how to
recognize the patterns. Mnemonics, rhymes, and other catchy phrases can help
to reinforce both the pattern recognition and the execution of steps.

Bear in mind that we can teach computers to perform algebra. There is a
heuristic involved. This heuristic can be memorized by anyone who can memorize
a bible verse, a song, or a poem. You would be surprised what someone with a
low IQ can do when time is spent to organize a heuristic in terms that this
person can memorize, and enough time is spent to reinforce both this learning
and the confidence of this individual.

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0xffff2
>So if you're not a STEM major ... why even study algebra?

I feel like this is equivalent to saying "if you _are_ a STEM major, why even
study writing?" I do some technical writing for work, but absolutely none of
the kind of writing I did in my college writing classes. Would anyone,
especially a non-STEM major, care to make an argument that the two cases are
different?

~~~
kermittd
Non-Stem; I'll give it go but the answer may be considered a cop out.

I don't think STEM majors should have to take writing courses nor non-stem
majors take math courses.

This should not be done in University but earlier. I'm skeptical that forcing
these two categories of students take these courses make them effective with
in the subject matter or a more enlightened person as the excuse goes.

IMO it is a way to keep professors who teach unneccessary coursework employed.

~~~
warcher
If you're a STEM person on my team that cannot write in a coherent and precise
fashion, I am going to find you and you had better pray you're worth
retraining, because this is a non-negotiable part of any technical career you
could hope to have.

If you want regular promotions, probably watch your spelling too.

~~~
0xffff2
Where do you work? Are you hiring?

I sincerely wish that this was the norm, but my experience has been that, on
average, people with the word "engineer" in their degree can't be bothered
with such piddling details as spelling and grammar.

~~~
warcher
I cofounded a small tech shop in flyover country. Mostly fitness and music
stuff. Not hiring at the moment, but if you do native mobile, hit me up, we do
a lot of stuff and it's only a matter of time before I need another native
guy. We do remote-- you gotta be able to write an email.

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c517402
There was a time when a good Liberal Arts education included Calculus because
it was considered one of the great achievements of Western Civilization.

The article says, "Their thinking has led to initiatives like Community
College Pathways, which strays away from abstract algebra to engage students
in real-world math applications."

My interpretation of this is that the article authors are math illiterate
enough not to know that "abstract algebra" is thing.

How sad to think that some people think that community college intermediate
algebra is so abstract that people can't get it.

~~~
tnecniv
> How sad to think that some people think that community college intermediate
> algebra is so abstract that people can't get it.

I agree, but I don't think more motivation is a bad thing. I hated math (even
as an engineer) despite being good at it until I was a junior in college. I
got interested in high-level math when I saw what some PhD students were doing
for research and that inspired me to dig deeper. Now I appreciate math just
for the beauty of it. I wish I had this appreciation in high school, but some
people just need a good answer for "why?"

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Mz
After a certain point, I homeschooled my kids. My oldest likes suffers
dyscalculia. He really had a hard time with math in public school. My only
goal in math was to get him over his math phobia and teach him "math is your
friend." That was it. Any actual math learned was just a bonus.

One day, I explained to him that in algebra, X was basically the exact same
thing as the empty space in math problems and it made it easier to move it
around. Instead of 2+2=_ you could put the "space" anywhere and it was more
readable.

He had a fit. He realized had been doing algebra in his head for years to, for
example, infer how much damage a particular attack did in a video game. And
here books made it sound hard and alien and didn't explain it worth shit.

Maybe colleges need to up their game. Because Algebra really isn't that hard,
but a lot of math is just terribly explained and, then, instead of blaming the
materials or the professor, we act like the students are just dumb. Which
sucks so very much.

~~~
throwawayjava
Definitely. Math is typically taught really, really poorly until at least
university. It's not uncommon to find STEM phds who "hated math" before making
it to or even past calculus.

It's really funny how helpful the "_" or "cloud" trick is for kids. Even high
school kids in AP Calculus find it helpful.

There is a "hump" where "_" vs. "x" doesn't seem to help much, e.g. where we
start working with polynomials as more abstract things and so on. I think the
right approach there is to make a lot more use of computer algebra.

The point is "here's a generic tool that's useful in lots of specific
circumstances", but students get lost during hours of practicing the "useless
generic tool" before seeing why that general tool is useful. Computer algebra
systems can help there.

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maxxxxx
I think algebra should be taught in a different way. I remember in school I
just didn't get it for more than a year and almost failed math. Then my
brother in law gave me a few examples and suddenly it clicked. From then on it
was super easy.

I think a lot of people who aren't inclined towards math just don't get it
because it's taught the wrong way.

~~~
indigo0086
intuition isn't taught in schools for the most part, most of my math teachers
didn't go into proofs or intuitively figuring out mathematical concepts. It's
all to get you the right answers on standardized tests.

I didn't learn this until well after I graduated from college.

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parshimers
> " First of all, we've seen in the data from many of the pilots across the
> country that are using alternative math pathways — that are just as rigorous
> as an algebra course — we've seen much greater success for students because
> many of these students can relate to these different kinds of math depending
> on which program of study they're in. They can see how it works in their
> daily life and how it's going to work in their career. "

I remember using this argument a lot when I was a smart-aleck kid, that what
should I care about Algebra, because when the heck am I going to use it. It
feels like total bunk looking back at it now. I just hadn't seen or
appreciated math as something worthwhile in its own right, regardless of
application. I maintained that view until I got into more advanced math
classes in college. For example the being shown the Cauchy–Schwarz inequality
in Linear Algebra for the first time, that was just a total 'Ah-ha!' moment of
joy. I really doubt I'd have that impression of that moment if the professor
had been trying to demonstrate the immediate, concrete utility of that proof
at the same time.

I'm not really sure how one can reliably relay onto others the fun in math for
its own sake, but it's there. It feels like a cop out to say a particular type
of math needs to serve a purpose 'in the real world' instead of just being
worthwhile intrinsically, as a fundamental part of reasoning.

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phkahler
It sounds like California needs to improve its K-12 education. Any adult who
graduated high school should be prepared to pass an algebra class. I tutored
math in community college back in the day and I saw people of all ages and all
majors and while plenty of them just wanted to do enough to meet the
requirements, they all could do it in the end. There may be bias in this
because I saw those who sought assistance when they needed it, but maybe
that's a behavior that needs to be taught too.

~~~
0xffff2
As a product of the California K-12 system, I seem to recall being required to
pass basic and intermediate algebra in high school.

I then signed up for the Army and spent 4 years not doing much math. When I
got out and went to sign up for community college, I actually had to take the
placement test twice to get a high enough score to skip retaking the exact
kind of algebra course talked about in this article.

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tzs
There was an interesting article in the Notices of the AMS (American
Mathematical Society) a few years ago by Underwood Dudley called "What is
Mathematics For?" [1].

In it he discusses how it is largely mythical that most jobs require knowing
anything more than basic arithmetic (and even the need for basic arithmetic is
not as solid as most assume). For most that do actually require some math it
can usually be taught on the job.

Does this mean we should stop widespread teaching of anything beyond basic
arithmetic? No. He concludes that what teaching mathematics really does is
teach us how to reason. Sure, you have to learn reasoning in other subjects,
such as economics or philosophy or physics, but in all of those the reasoning
is either about things that have a large component of opinion, or involve a
lot of extra real world factual baggage. With mathematics we get to see
reasoning in a more pure context, letting us focus on and better learn to
understand and use logic.

[1]
[http://www.ams.org/notices/201005/rtx100500608p.pdf](http://www.ams.org/notices/201005/rtx100500608p.pdf)

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panic
Would they even be considering this change without the pressure to increase
graduation rates? Even if changing the requirements is the right thing to do,
this seems like the wrong reason to do it.

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jeffdavis
As I said before: math courses are objective, so they make a reasonable
"canary in the coal mine" for a failed education.

Maybe you don't need math. But if you can't pass the course, there may be
other serious problems.

It's easy enough to keep pushing kids/adults forward by redefining success in
other subjects. Extra credit, dubious essay standards, grade inflation, etc.
We need math to keep the system honest.

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unabridged
I think you are lucky to have a high school diploma if you cannot do basic
algebra. I don't think we need to extend this academic leniency to associates
degrees in science also.

Most classes in community college have been dumbed down so much that anyone
can pass them by showing up and doing mediocre on a few multiple choice tests.
You can just memorize a few definitions and get through without learning
anything.

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mnm1
They can abandon algebra. So can high schools. But let's be clear on one
thing. They _will_ limit their students' future potential severely. If you
can't do algebra, you have no chance in hell of ever programming a computer.
No chance of doing anything in STEM whatsoever. No chance in finance,
business, or any position requiring critical thinking. Yes, if all you're
trying is to teach liberal arts majors, this might be an option, though I'm
not even sure of that. If you want to prepare students for any kid of future,
abandoning algebra is beyond horrible. And we're talking about community
colleges here. First and second year students who in many cases have no idea
what they really want to do in the world. Do we want to limit students'
futures so severely because of our institutions' and teachers' failings at
teaching? Why even go to college then? I'm not even sure what these students
_can_ excel at if they can't even pass algebra. Maybe manual, hard labor at
best.

~~~
relics443
Hi, I have a math learning disorder, which includes algebra. I was never able
to grasp the concepts throughout school.

I've been programming for 10 years now, and I'm pretty damn good at it if I do
say so myself.

I'm not advocating dropping algebra, but your statement is a bit
sensationalist.

~~~
AstralStorm
My bet is either you're actually good at CC level algebra, just don't know it
yet (say, bad at notation but good at concepts - try reverse polish notation
then), or you're not programming, but putting code together using automated
tools.

~~~
relics443
You'd lose that bet

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mjfl
It took 5 community college students to change 25 light bulbs, how many
lightbulbs did each student change on average?

I guess they'll never know...

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jchw
A bunch of people who are good at math will defend this. For good reasons, but
most likely also just because they love mathematics.

But I do kind of question if it's really a good use of everyone's time to
learn algebra. For computer science and engineering I can sort of see why
you'd want that, but I'll be honest: even in computer science I think most
people don't need it. Even when I'm doing algebraic work, it's rarely stuff I
learned in a math class. Trig and calculus come more in handy, but
unfortunately my day job of writing backend servers does not fundamentally
benefit from this. I think many of us could say this.

That's not to say there aren't other benefits of studying mathematics, but if
it's really not working then I can see why people are just calling to make it
optional. No point in making people suffer through apparently ineffective
education.

~~~
mcphage
> But I do kind of question if it's really a good use of everyone's time to
> learn algebra.

There are things taught in it (and in other courses of general math) that
probably don't need to be—long division comes to mind—but there are some
pretty fundamental mental concepts that I'd hate for people to lack.

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vpribish
Algebra? If you can't understand algebra there is something dreadfully wrong
with you mind, your attitude, or your instruction - Questions should be raised
and no degree should be awarded.

Ok - I guess it depends on what they include in an algebra course. Here is an
intermediate algebra course outline (pdf warning):

[https://www.ccsf.edu/dam/Organizational_Assets/Department/Ma...](https://www.ccsf.edu/dam/Organizational_Assets/Department/Mathematics/MATH-60-Intermediate-
Algebra.pdf)

It goes beyond the basics but certainly should be passable by any ordinary
person who works at it. This is one of the major things that a degree (any
degree) should indicate : this person can work through learning new things.
Removing this makes the degree less valuable.

~~~
kermittd
Hmm I disagree that something is wrong if you can't understand algebra.

Something is wrong with a system that make you "learn" information irrelevant
to your own life.

~~~
throwawayjava
You don't perform "addition, multiplication, addition, and subtraction of
rational expressions" in your every-day life?

You don't "Identify key features of and sketch graphs" when e.g. planning an
expensive purchase or reading the news?

No business owner is going to survive if they don't understand how to solve a
system of equations (aka figure out feasible pricing before losing all their
money). Although we are on a tech VC's news site, so I stand corrected ;-)

Being an informed citizen capable of taking care of yourself _does_ require
most of the things taught in middle/high school algebra. (Which are the same
exact things taught in CC algebra.) A surprising amount of financial suffering
is self-imposed by people who can't or won't do very basic math.

~~~
jshevek
Indeed! Requiring _less_ math is a frightening idea to me, in a system of
government in which nearly everyone has the right to vote. Properly
understanding even the most basic information that informs policy decisions
often requires a more advanced understanding than algebra.

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Spooky23
What a disservice for people of color. I get that its NPR and they like to pin
a racial angle on many things -- but the need for remedial math, reading and
writing education at this level shouldn't be associated with race at all --
its a problem that needs to be solved.

Intermediate algebra isn't particularly difficult but requires a moderate
level of attention. It's a basic skill expected to exist for many common
career paths, including many in community college. If majorities of students
cannot hack that, perhaps they aren't prepared to commit to a meaningful
education.

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armenarmen
> Algebra is one of the biggest hurdles to getting a high school or college
> degree — particularly for students of color and first-generation undergrads.

No bigotry of low expectations at play here, none at all.

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cbanek
I feel like this is pretty frightening. I thought algebra was basically a high
school requirement?

Not only do I think everyone should be able to understand basic algebra, they
should understand basic statistics and probabilities (which is pretty hard to
understand without algebra).

These days, not only do people not understand math, but we use numbers and
statistics to lie to people and mislead their decision making. Now we seem to
just be making it easier to mislead them.

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ivan_ah
I think computer algebra systems can play a role in getting to grips on math.
In particular SymPy has a very natural API, with the algebra verbs like
"simplify", "expand", "factor", "solve", etc.

Here is a short printable tutorial for anyone interested:
[https://minireference.com/static/tutorials/sympy_tutorial.pd...](https://minireference.com/static/tutorials/sympy_tutorial.pdf)

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DrScump
Note the explicit premise of this article.

It's not merely asking, "should we remove algebra requirements from non-STEM
degree programs?".

It's asking, "should we _remove algebra_ (courses) from the institution
_altogether_?"

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booleandilemma
So coding is the new literacy but we can afford to skimp on the math?

~~~
tptacek
Yes? Virtually none if the coding that professionals do requires any formal
intuition for algebra.

~~~
gsylvie
I think there's more algebra in frontend development. For example: CSS or SVG
gradients, JavaScript animations and fades, the occasional clever data
visualization. Heck, even the CSS box model?

Backend or frontend, if you use any quantitative metrics in your year-end
performance evals, then some algebra is going to be helpful!

And you never know what will come up. I was once contracted by a regional
government to write some code to correct hourly sensor readings (water levels
in wells) based on a monthly manual human reading (ground truth). When it was
done my boss remarked, "oh, this is just a linear transformation."

~~~
JamesBarney
But remember, has a non-zero usefulness is a very very different benchmark
from a good use of your time to study and learn.

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warcher
Yeah man, the cure for declining American competitiveness is absolutely
dumbing things down even further. The other countries need to respect our dum-
dums!

~~~
bsder
Read the article, the goal is to have alternate math courses.

And, to be fair, that's probably a _GOOD_ idea. A standard algebra course is a
lousy math course _if you aren 't going any further_.

Schools used to have a course that was "shop math" aka how to do the things
you might have to do in construction, machining, etc. This included elements
of algebra, geometry, trig, and statistics. It was a _much_ better match for
people who were not going forward to more theoretical math or science.

~~~
warcher
I read and respectfully disagree-- this is _college_ , not high school or
trade school. You're not training for diesel engine repair here, you're
training for white-collar jobs. Basic algebra is pretty uniformly necessary
today, and it isn't becoming less so in the future.

~~~
bsder
Community college isn't quite that cut and dried. There are quite a few 2-year
Associate's degrees that are not "academic".

One of the community colleges near me has quite a good nursing program. How
much "algebra" will they need vs. procedures for medication dosage
calculation? "Algebra" has a lot of dead ends for practical use.

A great example is "How do you divide by a fraction?"\--a fairly routine
algebraic manipulation. Yet, I can't even think of when I have had a real
world situation where I had to "divide by a fraction". Multiply by a fraction?
Sure. Divide by a whole number? Sure. Calculate a percentage? Sure. Divide by
a fraction? Ummmmm.

I would argue that algebra is both too advanced in many places _AND_ too
sketchy in others. Geometry is something that people need and don't get
because it is _after_ algebra that they fail. The worst part is that a lot of
people have better geometric intuition than mathematical and would do better
to have geometry _first_.

Should they have a math course? Yes. Should it be the pedagogical algebra? Not
as obvious.

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armenarmen
Do we want to optimize for the number of degrees issued or for the amount of
people that know things?

~~~
plandis
I wonder if those goals of increasing the amount of general knowledge someone
knows is in alignment with the goals of attending community it's college?

I'd imagine for a lot of students in community college they care more about
getting a job than they do about learning for learnings sake.

~~~
armenarmen
Very fair counter point. I would think that the trade school elements of CC
would down the road require some knowledge of algebra though right? Be it
nursing, plumbing or carpentry

~~~
aaachilless
The course in question contains topics like imaginary numbers,
sequences/series, and conic sections along with the more practical topics like
basic inequalities, graphs of functions, and simple systems of equations. The
alternative pathways program seems to swap out these topics for basic topics
in probability, statistics, and the like.

Seems reasonable to me.

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darawk
Our education system is failing! Let's blame the height of the standards.

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wellsjohnston
No.

