
Master–Slave Morality - 0db532a0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2%80%93slave_morality
======
woodruffw
The SEP[1] is probably a better reference than Wikipedia for most
philosophical topics, especially for individuals like Nietzsche (who, for
various reasons, tends to find himself in the intersection of vaguely
reactionary thinkers and people who want to read philosophy without seriously
engaging with the rest of the canon).

In particular, this Wikipedia article gives the incorrect impression that
Nietzsche is especially cynical about divine command and deontological ethics
and implies that the MS divide is in some ways constructive. Neither is the
case: Nietzsche's moral cynicism is universal and the MS divide is meant to be
descriptive, not prescriptive or constructive.

[1]: [https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche-moral-
political...](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche-moral-political/)

~~~
tpresa
> Nietzsche's moral cynicism is universal and the MS divide is meant to be
> descriptive, not prescriptive or constructive.

Could you elaborate? Nietzsche's usage of slave morality seems pejorative to
me, and I wouldn't characterise Nietzsche's stance as an universal moral
cynicism; his method does not aim at an universal conclusion.

Funny enough, this illustrates well why it is difficult to find good reads on
Nietzsche, it is not easy to summarise his positions briefly and without
equivocation.

~~~
keiferski
To dramatically over-simplify: N. thinks that slave morality was inferior to
master morality, however he doesn’t think we should return to a master
morality system. He also thinks that slave morality did have some benefits in
the sense that it turned humanity's creative instincts inward. He mostly has a
problem with slave morality because it is life-denying (which is essentially
his criticism of Christianity).

It should also be said that he doesn’t use these terms in a scientific or
extremely specific way (“this is how it was, factually”) but rather as a sort
of myth-like pattern. They are broad repeating trends, so to speak, not
scientific observations.

The overman (Übermensch) should transcend both moral systems and create a new
life-affirming one. Unfortunately some reactionaries seem to think that he was
advocating for a return to master morality.

------
synlatexc
Reminded of this quote from Cannery Row:

"It has always seemed strange to me, the things we admire in men, kindness and
generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants
of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed,
acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of
success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce
of the second."

~~~
tsimionescu
I think the biggest issue is that for the system to succeed, most participants
need to display the first list of traits. But for any individual within the
system, personal success may be easier to obtain by displaying the second set
(though that is not necessarily true, in my experience).

~~~
wppick
It's like the person in the sportscar weaving through traffic on the highway.
He can only do it because everyone else drives carefully and predictably. He
gets to his destination faster, and thinks he is a much better driver than
everyone else, but if everyone drove like him the traffic "system" would fall
apart. The master mindset is sacrificing the well working system for personal
gain. If you want to go fast go alone. If you want to go far go together.
What's not good for the hive is not good for the bee.

------
stanski
I can't be the only one thinking this would be an article on drive
replication.

~~~
jolmg
I was thinking of 2 drives on an IDE cable[1], until I read "Morality".

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#Multiple_devices_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#Multiple_devices_on_a_cable)

(kind of wondering if that use of Master-Slave is so old that I really needed
to cite it...)

~~~
jotm
Yep, had flashbacks of PATA configuration problems, as well :D

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bitL
An example why German philosophy of late 19th century is considered deranged
by many... Cherry picking some facts, dissecting them in detail, reassembling
them in some convincing fashion, pretending conclusions are true without any
proof of causality and then just observing how that philosophy spreads like
wildfire among people that want to look trendy, contributing to two world wars
later.

~~~
beebmam
Nietzsche's philosophy had a profound influence on the colonial wars that
Europe fought, and the world wars that were fought in Europe.

What an absolute humanitarian travesty that era was.

~~~
0db532a0
Yeah, just like Einstein and nuclear weapons.

~~~
unixhero
Einstein pulled out.

~~~
0db532a0
Nietzsche pulled his books from his publisher after finding that it published
anti-semitic books.

------
1998v2
Classroom morality: the behaviors that make the teacher's day easier and get
good grades.

Playground morality: the behaviors that make a kid popular and respected by
the other children.

...

This Nietzsche is interesting and it hit me like a slap in the face when I
first encountered it, but the most fleshed out and vivid form of this type of
thinking is Ribbonfarm _Gervaise Principle_ articles.

~~~
0db532a0
The Premium Mediocre Life of Maya Millennial
([https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2017/08/17/the-premium-
mediocre-l...](https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2017/08/17/the-premium-mediocre-
life-of-maya-millennial/)) was a favourite from Ribbonfarm.

~~~
dr_dshiv
That post cracked me up. Thank you.

------
thanatropism
Similarly-named (I mistook OP for this) but much, much more interesting:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2%80%93slave_dialectic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2%80%93slave_dialectic)

------
DoreenMichele
Something I wrote previously:

[http://genevievefiles.blogspot.com/2019/09/putting-
victimhoo...](http://genevievefiles.blogspot.com/2019/09/putting-victimhood-
behind-you.html)

------
sam_lowry_
Shouldn't we rename this wikipedia page into Leader-Follower morality?

~~~
handedness
Why should we?

~~~
sam_lowry_
To follow the trend.

------
slowenough
Hypothesis: In a liberal democracy, when leaders adopts a persona of master
morality, the slaves are threatened. If leaders instead project a slave
morality, the slaves are peaceable and content.

But behind the scenes, it seems like a state needs to rule with master
morality, but for peaceableness, promote the adoption of slave morality among
the slaves.

Controversial view: Christianity is a perfect ruling tool because it
incentivizes slave morality which keeps people peaceful.

Caveat: I'm not saying Christ wasn't real nor an amazing person. Just noting
how the religion could be co-opted for ruling purpose.

~~~
slowenough
Hypothesis: In a liberal democracy, when leaders adopts a persona of master
morality, the slaves are threatened. If leaders instead project a slave
morality, the slaves are peaceable and content. But behind the scenes, it
seems like a state needs to rule with master morality, but for peaceableness,
promote the adoption of slave morality among the slaves.

Controversial view: Christianity is a perfect ruling tool because it
incentivizes slave morality which keeps people peaceful.

Caveat: I'm not saying Christ wasn't real nor an amazing person. Just noting
how the religion could be co-opted for ruling purpose.

~~~
UnFleshedOne
Why is it a controversial view? I thought it was a general view that this was
exactly why monotheism of this sort got enthusiastically adopted and enforced
by monarchies -- one true god, one true king, sheeple and all that.

~~~
slowenough
The trigger for controversy on HN is quite fine.

------
dr_dshiv
I came away with a feeling that the article was not representative. It felt
creepy, even.

It's frankly a disgusting argument.

~~~
0db532a0
Maybe you should look at the book Moral Psychology with Nietzsche:
[https://global.oup.com/academic/product/moral-psychology-
wit...](https://global.oup.com/academic/product/moral-psychology-with-
nietzsche-9780199696505).

~~~
dr_dshiv
Thanks for the reference, it looks good. What's the takeaway?

~~~
0db532a0
Validation of Nietzsche's ideas in more of a modern, scientific context.
Thinking about a person's morality as originating from a person's psychology.

~~~
dr_dshiv
What does it mean to scientifically validate Nietzsche's ideas? What
invalidated the ideas in the first place? I'm assuming the association with
Nazis and Mussolini.

~~~
0db532a0
Validating them in the sense of using the ideas as a model to understand our
own psychology, and the origins of our moralities. Showing that certain ideas
that Nietzsche held around free will and the nature/nurture debate hold up to
scientific scrutiny.

------
KirinDave
This is not a meaningful or interesting article for Hacker News, and in the
world of Philosophy this is not a slam dunk of a concept.

~~~
crehn
Counterargument: it was meaningful and interesting to me.

~~~
KirinDave
Counterargument: This does not make it newsworthy or even discussion-worthy
within the venue of this site. There are many, many venues where you could
discuss or learn about philosophy.

