
Hydrogen Cars Take to Britain's Roads - jsnathan
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/04/the-future-is-here-mass-market-hydrogen-cars-take-to-britains-roads
======
tomlock
I don't think Hydrogen cars will take off. I worked on an industrial site
where Hydrogen was decanted from large trucks into smaller cylinders. On the
same site we produced Acetylene. The Acetylene reaction is very volatile, and
even after it is in the cylinders a hard knock is enough to create a run-away
exothermic reaction.

I was once in a toilet, doing my business, when I heard a fire alarm go off. I
stood up, pants still round my ankles, and looked out towards the acetylene
filling plant. Nobody was running away, so I knew I had time to sit back down
and wipe.

The last major accident on our site was an acetylene cylinder exploding, which
immediately amputated a man's leg.

With all that in mind, all the workers on the site were STILL more afraid of
doing Hydrogen filling than acetylene, due to its inherent volatility.

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_ph_
Why??? There is no environmentally friendly way to produce hydrogen. Either it
is stripped from natural gas producing CO2, or from hydrolysis with currently
about 30% efficiency. That means an equivalent electrical car can drive about
3 times as far on the same amount of electricity. Finally, refueling stations
are extremely expensive to build because hydrogen is a rather volatile
substance.

~~~
donpdonp
Hydrolysis from solar is '30% efficient' of nearly limitless solar radiation.
Hydrogen fuel cells emit no CO2. Its hard to underestimate what a gigantic win
that is.

~~~
_ph_
Unless we have enough photovoltaic energy production to close down all coal
plants, the "limitless" part isn't really there. And even then it is cheaper
to store the electricity directly in batteries - they are even cheaper than
the devices required for hydrogen fuel cell cars. Hydrogen fuel cell cars
still need a battery, though a smaller one, then the expensive fuel cell and
finally the gas tank which has plenty of issues by itself.

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peterburkimsher
Maybe to save VW, the new management will switch to all-electric or hydrogen
vehicles. It would be a huge change, but maybe necessary to save their brand.
And it would be a huge win for customers, the industry as a whole, and the
environment.

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Rexxar
I would like to have an estimation of total hydrogen leaks we could have if
everybody used this technology everywhere. Hydrogen is so light that it's
going into space when it's released in atmosphere.

If the computation shows that we will send 1% of earth's hydrogen into space
every 5 billion years, no problem.

If we will send 1% of earth's hydrogen every 1000 years or less, I will prefer
not to use this technology.

~~~
J_Darnley
The water in the oceans weighs 10^24 grams[1] this equates to about 10^23
grams of hydrogen (2/18ths of water). This mass of hydrogen is about 10^21
cubic metres or 1.1 times the volume of the earth [2]. Think we are fine.

[1]
[https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28volume+of+oceans%29...](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28volume+of+oceans%29+*+%28density+of+water%29)

[2]
[https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=volume+of+10^23+grams+...](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=volume+of+10^23+grams+of+hydrogen+gas)

~~~
Rexxar
So if we destroy irreversibly as much water as we consume petrol (1.5 * 10^10,
very pessimist hypothesis IMHO) we have for 10^12 years before consuming more
than 1% of water.

This should be fine.

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kirk21
Reading this book about the history of EV's atm: The great race: the global
quest for the car of the future
([http://amzn.to/1kxnT0c](http://amzn.to/1kxnT0c)).

China had great plans but has been quite slow to implement them since the
provinces kept competing for funds. The role of Europe has been quite limited.

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vblord
Interesting. I didn't even know these existed. So the big question. I live in
the US. Should I save up for an electric car or save and wait for a hydrogen
car?

~~~
hugh4
Go electric. Hydrogen is a zombie technology.

Twenty or ten years ago hydrogen seemed like a pretty good way to go, and
these products are the end result of projects started way back then. But
batteries have pretty much leapfrogged hydrogen in every way, and I can't see
hydrogen staging a comeback.

~~~
xixi77
What about range and recharging speed though? I would imagine hydrogen would
have an advantage there...

~~~
mikeash
Range, a little. Current hydrogen cars offer 300ish miles of range.

Recharging speed depends on how you're using it. On a road trip, hydrogen wins
(if the stations ever get built out). For daily driving, electric wins,
because the effective recharging time for plugging in overnight is zero, since
you're not waiting for it.

Both are likely to improve for batteries much more that for hydrogen, too.

