
BMW is accelerating electrification plans - clouddrover
https://www.electrive.com/2019/06/24/bmw-is-accelerating-electrification-plans/
======
joshe
For context, here's a visualization of electric car sales by company from 2012
on.

[https://twitter.com/masegoslin/status/1132389324140343297/vi...](https://twitter.com/masegoslin/status/1132389324140343297/video/1)

And here they are grouped by model:

[https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/24/visualization-2012-2019...](https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/24/visualization-2012-2019-us-
electric-car-sales-this-is-a-must-see/)

BMW is in sixth place currently.

~~~
ben7799
That's really informative but to me that's a little misleading since they are
counting the Volt and other plug-in hybrids as electric cars when in reality
they are burning gas.

Tesla has taken such a beating in the press about the Model 3 which is really
misleading I guess when you look at these charts.. the Model 3 has stomped
everything else on the market very quickly.

~~~
w8vY7ER
Have you had the chance to drive one yet, just out of curiosity? It's worth
the effort if there is a store nearby you and you have any interest in
manifestation of the product itself!

------
echelon
Once big auto moves to EVs, what will happen to Tesla? Will they have a
significant foothold/advantage, or will their position erode? Will they get
acquired or remain independent?

~~~
bryanlarsen
\- Tesla currently has a huge efficiency advantage[1]

\- Tesla's Model 3 interior is highly polarizing; you either love it or hate
it. That will help carve out a niche even if all else is equal

\- but most importantly, it's all about the batteries. Audi had to scale back
e-tron production for 2019 due to battery supply issues; what's going to
happen when the big carmakers need several orders of magnitude more batteries?
Tesla has their own battery factory. OTOH, there are a _LOT_ of chinese
battery factories being built right now, we may see battery prices fall
through the floor if they are overbuilding. Anybody who's watched the DRAM
market over the past few decades knows what happens when you need really
expensive factories to build a commodity...

1: [https://electrek.co/2019/02/21/tesla-efficiency-range-
test-a...](https://electrek.co/2019/02/21/tesla-efficiency-range-test-audi-e-
tron-jaguar-i-pace/)

2: [https://www.electrive.com/2019/04/23/audi-revises-
production...](https://www.electrive.com/2019/04/23/audi-revises-production-
numbers-of-the-e-tron-downwards/)

~~~
neuronic
Also from your source:

> As for Audi, I think that they are intentionally giving up their efficiency
> in order to protect the battery pack and get a higher charge rate.

~~~
zaroth
That statement makes no sense. Efficiency is a measure of energy required to
move the vehicle a certain distance, as in Wh/mi.

Range is battery capacity divided by efficiency. You can give up _range_ to
protect the battery, by limiting the charging capacity or the discharge depth,
but you cannot give up _efficiency_.

There are likely a multitude of factors from motors, to drivetrain, to drag,
to gross weight which contribute to Audi’s lower efficiency e-Tron. They have
a fairly large battery, although smaller capacity than Tesla’s largest, but
only get ~200mi of range out of it. Their efficiency and range is lower than
the 2012 Model S. This is one area where Tesla has an indisputable technical
lead.

You could argue, for example, that Audi sacrifices efficiency to have lower
interior noise levels, or that they had a body design with higher drag they
weren’t willing to compromise. But drag and weight alone don’t fully account
for the large efficiency difference.

------
netsharc
To look at this from one perspective, I wonder if this is because BMW assumes
accelerating climate change (most scientific models use very conservative
figures, meaning they assume best scenarios, and now scientists are being
shocked that things are happening much faster than those models, e.g.
[https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/18/arctic-p...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/18/arctic-
permafrost-canada-science-climate-crisis)) will mean either regulation or
market interests will shift much more quickly to electric cars, so they're
also moving their target, because otherwise it'll be like selling great
looking, great performing steam engines when everyone are more interested in
buying Model T's.

So businesses making good decisions because of climate change... a good thing?
But maybe too late?

~~~
tmalsburg2
Two independent studies in Germany recently found that the expected reduction
in CO2 due to electric cars will be very moderate over the next two decades
even in the best case scenario. The electricity just needs to come from
somewhere and that somewhere is not going to be 100% renewables. We need to
end this narrative that driving a Tesla or similar car somehow is a heroic act
and helping to save the planet.

~~~
whatshisface
About half of all crude oil is turned into gasoline (and that's only an
indirect indicator of where the profits are). A world without ICE engines will
still have an oil industry, but it will have an almost unrecognizably
different one.

[0]
[https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=327&t=9](https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=327&t=9)

~~~
ralfd
> About half of all crude oil is turned into gasoline

That is honestly less than I expected.

------
sandworm101
I do love the irony of a luxury car company trying to be more green. I'm all
for electric cars. I think BMW will make some great electric cars and I will
want to buy one. But the real green decision is to not buy the luxury car, to
go with a less energy-intensive option such as a smaller/simpler car.

~~~
sfifs
This is the "Reduce" philosophy. Not all agree with that philosophy -
especially in the developing world who feel unfair if development and
conveniences that the west got is denied to them. I personally moved from a
energy non-intensive use country (India) to an energy intensive use country
(Singapore) a few years ago and even though economic strata wise I've likely
gone down a few notches, I wouldn't trade-in my current lifestyle &
convenience for what I had back in India.

"Reduce" for the sake of reduction is just poor behavioral economics & hence
hasn't actually demonstrably made much of a difference to this world.

Reduce as a side effect of a true benefit/efficiency (think how much lesser
power is consumed per unit compute today vs. even 5 years ago) makes a lot of
sense.

~~~
adwww
It's how you plan society as well. Singapore is dense and has great public
transport.

America conciously builds sprawling suburbs that require private cars to get
around.

We can choose to build a society that does not need as much car use.

~~~
sfifs
True and Singapore's government has been very systematic about broadening
public transport access - not just for energy reasons but also for economic
participation & health reasons (people walk a lot more).

But Singapore also air conditions everything which is a fairly heavy energy
use in tropical climate much like how heating is a massive energy use in
northern climates and spends a lot of effort/energy on keeping sidewalks,
grounds and pavements manicured, watered & in good repair.

As the founder of Singapore argued, the lifestyle gain - though at the cost of
consuming more energy is a massive competitive advantage in productivity and
in attracting, developing & retaining talent.
[https://www.vox.com/2015/3/23/8278085/singapore-lee-kuan-
yew...](https://www.vox.com/2015/3/23/8278085/singapore-lee-kuan-yew-air-
conditioning)

~~~
komali2
Is there anything that can be done to keep an office a reasonable temperature
in a tropical climate like Singapore? I guess if we were all hanging out under
open air roofs with our flip flops and swimsuits on, but other than AC I don't
know how they could do "business people" office stuff.

~~~
adwww
You could build to passive principles - greater thermal mass and careful
management of solar gain. Eg.
[http://leepenghui.blogspot.com/2016/06/passivhaus-in-
tropics...](http://leepenghui.blogspot.com/2016/06/passivhaus-in-tropics.html)

------
jonplackett
Maybe it’s just the way this is written but it seems amusing to me. He has
“called for sales of electric vehicles to increase by 30%”. Not Actually done
something that would increase them, just called for it.

Are any of BMWs existing or 25 new electric cars any good though? I tried out
the i3 but its range is tiny.

Also, BMW and intel need to have a chat and sort out some differentiation in
the i numbers they use.

~~~
cheerlessbog
I love - beyond love - my i3. The range is just not a problem. Even my older
model can do 60-70 miles (depending on temp - plus 2x on the range extender
should I need it). So it's easy for me to do my 30 miles commute plus the
occasional chore. Overnight it charges about 50 miles on a 110V level 1
charger (the kind that comes free with the car) so even if I forget to plug it
in one night I'm still good.

The market for this is as a second car for commutes of up to 30-40 miles each
way. Double if your work place has a level 2 charger. Add 30-50% for the newer
models. I'm willing to guess that covers, what, 75% of two car households?
Range is just not a problem.

It's also a pretty cheap car for the quality level. Mine was $20K, more then
50% off the $56K on the sticker, off a 10K lease with 2 years left on the
warranty. Hardly used. There was a whole line of these off lease cars at the
dealer. He preferred to sell gas vehicles - no need to talk about range.

I didn't mention the quietness, acceleration, build quality, low maintenance,
etc. As you can tell I've become a bit of a bore about them and got two
friends to buy one. If I have to drive my wife's SUV now I feel dirty.

~~~
davidgould
A used BMW i3 for under $20k is a great deal, but the original owner took
quite a bath.

~~~
cheerlessbog
The lease paperwork was in the glove box, from memory I think their lease must
have cost them near $2 a mile, but BMW ate a chunk too. Dealer explanation is
limited market due to range anxiety. Which as I demonstrated above is a non
issue for most people.

~~~
davidgould
> their lease must have cost them near $2 a mile

Yikes, they didn't take a bath, they were drugged, bound up in a sack and
thrown into the river.

------
woodandsteel
The big story is the electric vehicle revolution is finally starting to really
take off. Thanks to rapidly falling battery prices, EV's will be as cheap as
ISE's for the largest cars starting around 2023, and for successively smaller
ones in the following years. In addition governments all over the world are
pushing EV adoption with many sorts of measures.

In the last year the big car companies have finally realized this, and that
they are in danger of going bankrupt if they get left behind, and so they are
seriously getting behind making EV's. To give one outstanding example VW has
signed contracts for 48 billion dollars worth of batteries.

------
linuxftw
I was in Europe recently. I have no idea where people are planning on charging
these things. Massive new infrastructure will be required. EG, automakers
externalizing their costs onto society again. For what it would cost to roll
out and maintain this infrastructure, you might as well just have free transit
everywhere, and just keep a state-maintained fleet of rental cars. Would be
much cheaper and more efficient.

~~~
wastedhours
Yep - I for one wouldn't mind getting an EV, especially to drive around
London. But I live in an apartment building, with underground parking, with no
outlets. At least Tesla have their chargers, I saw an entire section dedicated
to them at a motorway service station, that serve double purpose as chargers
and brightly coloured adverts...

~~~
simion314
Your comment makes no sense, you can't charge at home Tesla or any other
vehicle, so what is your plan buy a Tesla and go to the mall and charge it?
What if you don't have energy to start the car? AFAIK the only reasonable
option for people that can't charge at home is to charge the car at work,
going to a mall and hoping you will find a free port is not something
reasonable IMO.

~~~
QuotedForTruth
Why is that unreasonable?

Its quite like going to get gas from a gas station. It just takes a while
longer. You don't let the car run to empty before you fill it back up. Easy
enough fix for your first issue. And for the second, you just wait for a port
to come free. That's how supercharger stations are working all across the US.

~~~
simion314
Because at a gas station you spend around 5 minutes and you don't have to go
as often as with an electric cars that will have less autonomy and you will
have to spend more time charging. I imagine you would have to go more often to
the mall (so consuming extra energy,spend time in traffic, and you may be
taxed by the time you keep the charger occupied.

it may work for some people, but AFAIK the traffic at a mall is higher on
certain days and hours so you may not find a charger, then what do you do if
you are on low?

------
petrikapu
Very light tax on electric cars (PHEV included) steers customers to
electrified cars as well. I guess European manufacturers are forced to step
in. I'd like to have powerful traditional combustion engine on my car but
electrified PHEV makes much more economical sense due taxation.

------
Lendal
And yet they won't invest a dime in charging infrastructure as Tesla has done.
Which means the only electric car you'll be able to drive between cities
remains Tesla. Until that changes Tesla will continue to sell 10x more
electric cars than all other carmakers combined.

~~~
clouddrover
> _And yet they won 't invest a dime in charging infrastructure_

BMW has a stake in the Ionity charging network, a joint venture of a few
companies: [https://ionity.eu/en/about.html](https://ionity.eu/en/about.html)

BMW also sells home charging units:
[https://charging.bmwgroup.com/web/360electric-
international/...](https://charging.bmwgroup.com/web/360electric-
international/home-charging)

Your claim is wrong.

~~~
markab21
The claim is dead-right.

I own a Tesla Model 3, my wife drives a BMW i3, my daughter has a leaf.

The ONLY car we can effectively travel outside of the greater Tampa area
without major headache is the Tesla.

The ONLY car that I would try to drive to New York from Florida in is the
Tesla. (Yes, we've done it.. but would only try it in the Tesla)

~~~
mgolawala
I have wanted to get into an EV and it is the long distance travel issue (for
that 1% of the time) that has been keeping me (and I imagine a lot of people)
from making the switch. Tesla is the only model to have come close to solving
that issue.

One thing I have been waiting to see is a push to have gas stations adopt EV
charging on a large scale. Gas stations, particularly ones along interstate
routes, often double as rest stops and usually have large parking areas with
small marts, and a couple of fast food options. If companies partnered with a
major gas pump operator like chevron, shell or mobile to offer even a small
number of charging stations with each gas station (even just 2 to 4 at each
site in the 50-100kw range.. though the wiring would most likely need to be
upgraded to support this) things would shift rapidly I think. I know charge
times remain an issue, but if you are taking a rest stop anyway.. the 30-40
minutes of charge is not as big of an issue.

A government subsidy could also be introduced to help offset some of the cost
of upgrading these gas stations. An increased tax on Gasoline could go towards
paying for such a subsidy. Also I think we need to take another look at
nuclear power to help charge those EVs, but that is another conversation.

~~~
fiftyfifty
Actually if you download the PlugShare app it has all kinds of charging
stations, not just the Tesla Superchargers and I was honestly shocked at the
number of chargers there are around the US, they are literally everywhere now.
Many of the non-Tesla charging places only charge $1-$2/hour, so while it
might take you longer your electric road trip is going to be a lot cheaper. I
think you could easily do long distance trips in most electric cars in the US
now with a little planning. Walgreens for example has level 2 J-1772 chargers
at over 400 locations in the US, which are almost as fast as most Tesla
superchargers:

[https://www.walgreens.com/topic/sr/sr_electric_vehicle_charg...](https://www.walgreens.com/topic/sr/sr_electric_vehicle_charging_stations.jsp)

Teslas come with a J-1772 adapter so you can charge them there as well. Many
hotels, airports, malls and parking garages have chargers now as well. I
really think we are at a tipping point, one of the annoying things now is when
you get to a charger it's busy. Some of the busiest Tesla superchargers you
have to wait 15-20 minutes sometimes for a spot to open up.

~~~
davidgould
There is a big difference between Level 2 charging and the Tesla
Superchargers. Level 2 J1772 charging tops out under 20 kW, but most cars can
only handle 7kW. Most of the current DC fast charging points (ChargePoint etc)
are 50 kW. Faster ones are coming, but most of the current cars (Bolt, Leaf,
i3, Kia) can only accept less than 100 kW. Tesla Superchargers are currently
145 kW, but new installations are 250 kW.

~~~
clouddrover
Electrify America and EVgo are installing 350 kW chargers:

[https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/electrify-
america-350-kw-...](https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/electrify-
america-350-kw-ev-charger-california/)

[https://insideevs.com/news/341596/evgo-launches-350-kw-
ultra...](https://insideevs.com/news/341596/evgo-launches-350-kw-ultra-fast-
charging-station-between-la-vegas/)

And in Europe Fastned and Ionity are also installing 350 kW chargers:

[https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ionity-launches-
first-350...](https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ionity-launches-first-350-kw-
ev-chargers-uk/)

[https://fastned.nl/en/blog/post/fastned-opens-its-
first-350k...](https://fastned.nl/en/blog/post/fastned-opens-its-first-350k-w-
ready-fast-charging-station-in-the-united-kingdom)

------
thorwasdfasdf
i wonder if this will increase BMWs reliability. BMWs, like many of the German
brands, don't age well at all and start to have a lot of problems after 10
years. But with electrification, there should be less that can go wrong, in
theory at least.

------
perfunctory
> all new electric vehicles would be marketed under the BMWi subsidiary brand.

Why a subsidiary brand? Is BMW itself too cool for an EV?

On a more serious note, this is not the kind of message that makes me
convinced they are really serious about EVs.

------
zaroth
“Electrified” meaning at least hybrid, at least plug-in hybrid, or full EV?

~~~
thinkmassive
If you click the first link to the IAA 2017 announcement with the original
goals, it says “25 electrified new models until 2025 and 12 of them all-
electric”

This announcement is just accelerating that schedule, so about half the models
should be full EV and the others will be hybrid. I agree it would be nice to
get more details regarding plug-in capabilities.

------
benj111
Not a lot of detail here.

I wonder what the motivation for this is.

~~~
evo_9
Tesla outselling them in Europe maybe?

[https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/tesla-
model-3-outsell...](https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/tesla-
model-3-outsells-german-sedan-rivals-europe)

~~~
benj111
If its concern about the competition that's great, if its just a form of
greenwashing or whatever, not so great.

I can't see BMW being worried about 1 month of sales by a competitor but its
possible.

------
laythea
Yes but what about petrol (elec) stations? When will we see a similar surge of
charging points that make it practical? Can have all the cars in the world,
but unless some serious investment is made in the infrastructure, its a bit
premature I think.

