
Penn State's 98-Year-Old Outing Club Is No Longer Allowed to Go Outside - apsec112
https://reason.com/blog/2018/04/22/penn-state-outing-club-safety
======
wlesieutre
I’m a Penn State grad and have been hearing about this from a couple of
people, glad to see it’s getting wider attention.

If the “no cell service” issue is really the problem, this is even more
embarrassing. Satellite phones are a thing, and if they can’t afford the
subscription for that, then get a subscriptionless emergency satellite beacon
instead. They cost a few hundred dollars.

It’s even run by an international treaty with many satellite networks
listening for these alerts and forwarding them to local authorities. Works
pretty much anywhere in the world and costs less than most cell phones.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Cospas-
Sarsat_Pr...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Cospas-
Sarsat_Programme)

Risk management my ass. If they were really concerned about the safety of
students it wouldn’t be a football school.

~~~
crankylinuxuser
> Risk management my ass. If they were really concerned about the safety of
> students it wouldn’t be a football school.

But, what about all that sweet, sweet sportsball money? Oh yeah, TBI? Nahh,
the helmets are "safe".

~~~
noobermin
Snark aside, I think you hit on the main point. Bean counters have a two
columns whenever they assess something, the value in profit a venture brings
and the potential costs. They find the profit they derive from football more
than covers the cost that they have to bear, while allowing students (adults,
mind you) to go on outing trips has more potential cost than profit.

So, under the system we've given them, they made a rational decision.

~~~
mindslight
Sure, but the root of the problem is that beancounters shouldn't be anywhere
near such a "decision". We're reinventing totalitarianism through insurance
companies.

------
nimish
This is almost surely related to the insurance policy PSU has for official
clubs. If the Outing Club could get liability insurance for itself, I doubt
that PSU would care. If it wants to use the university's policy, it plays by
the university's rules, no matter how stupid they are, because it's really the
insurance company's rules. Because the university is a giant cash cow that's
target #1 if anything goes wrong, and what the Outing Club does has a high
chance of injury (try getting travel insurance that covers what these guys do
-- it's way more expensive).

This article just feels like clickbait. No analysis of why the university
might have taken a decision that on the surface is bizarre but is reasonable
given a moment's thought.... ironic given the name of the site.

~~~
snowwrestler
If it is related to insurance, I don't think that makes Penn State look any
better.

Far smaller universities and colleges have outing clubs that are covered by
the institutional insurance policy. Some schools like Middlebury even run
officially sanctioned and organized outings for matriculating students.

This is not impossible or expensive coverage to get.

~~~
nimish
PSU has unlimited coffers as a state school and the Outing Club is very
popular, and also run by amateurs. A perfect storm for e.g. a rich
international student to get injured or killed and then have their parents sue
Pennsylvania for megabucks.

This is 100% related to liability reduction. No insurance company would cover
a high-risk activity group without demanding conditions like being able to
call 911 or medevac.

The condition demanded here is 100% reasonable given the risk.

Reason is complaining about people wanting to do risky things and have other
people pay for them which is par for the course for libertarianism these days,
I guess.

~~~
snowwrestler
> the Outing Club is very popular, and also run by amateurs.

This is true of hundreds, maybe thousands of colleges and universities in the
U.S. It's not unusual to have a college outing club that is led by students.

> No insurance company would cover a high-risk activity group without
> demanding conditions like being able to call 911 or medevac.

This is just incorrect. Backcountry activities are not necessarily higher risk
than other activities, and insurance companies will certainly cover such
activities. Again: many, many colleges and universities already have coverage
for their outing clubs.

------
pjc50
This is the kind of dishonesty that gives risk assessment a bad name. Note
that they weren't even allowed to see and contest the assessment, and Alpine
ski racing was allegedly deemed safe.

~~~
Zak
> _Note that they weren 't even allowed to see and contest the assessment_

I don't know much about how risk assessment in large organizations is done,
but that strikes me as an illegitimate attempt to stifle debate. Are there any
legitimate reasons the university administrators might keep the risk
assessment secret?

~~~
Spooky23
Risk assessment is often a politically heavy org that sometimes writes the
report before assessing.

In some organizations they quack like auditors, but aren’t really auditors.
Usually if they are involved, a big shot doesn’t want to do something.

In terms of legitimate reasons, there may be discretionary expenses relating
to insurance that can be cut for clubs, but not for sports.

~~~
Zak
Using risk assessment as a political smokescreen is illegitimate from my point
of view.

> _In terms of legitimate reasons, there may be discretionary expenses
> relating to insurance that can be cut for clubs, but not for sports._

This could be a legitimate reason to cut a risky club while allowing a
similarly risky sport; it is not a legitimate reason to hide the report.

------
bkohlmann
Last year at Stanford, the Business School Kids Club (the org for families
with kids) attempted to do an outdoor "water" event featuring water balloons,
squirt guns, and sprinklers that kids could play with.

Part of the event was to have open 5 gallon containers of water so the kids
could refill their squirt guns. The whole event was killed by the
administration because the open water containers posed a "drowning hazard." As
a number of commentators have mentioned, this was driven by the school's
insurance policy.

A few weeks later, they hosted a professional birds of prey experinece -
including faclons, eagles, etc for the kids to engage with. The Admin again
banned it - but the organizers put it on anyway.

------
cryptoz
Sounds like they sure can go outside. The written issue seems to be that the
school is keeping them on a cell tower tether. That is weird. Are underground
parking lots also banned if they are off school property? No cell coverage,
likely higher probability of injury/robbery etc.

I wonder if "safety" is a dog whistle for something else. Or will the admin
reverse its decision if every student gets a satellite phone, or goes with a
team of professional trained guides?

~~~
metei
Honestly, probably just best for the club to shut down and reform as a
Venturing Crew. Same concept, much more independence, and you get access to
the properties and resources that Scouting International and the Boy Scouts of
America both offer.

I've yet to run into any issues going on trips as a gay couple in crew, its
solidly not bad. Much more of a collegiate atmosphere than Boy Scouts too, and
no uniform requirements or competitions either!

~~~
avhon1
"Venturing is an inclusive program through the Boy Scouts of America for males
and females aged 14-21 (or 13 and completed the 8th grade)." [0]

A Venture crew would not be accessible to many juniors, most seniors, or
(almost) any graduate students.

[0] [http://www.venturing.org/learn-more.html](http://www.venturing.org/learn-
more.html)

~~~
skissane
Scouts Australia runs a program called "Rovers" for 18–25 year olds:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rovers_(Australia)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rovers_\(Australia\))

Maybe there is no equivalent in US Scouting.

~~~
avhon1
The Boy Scouts of America offers 3 coed programs for teens/young adults (in
addition to its well-known "Scouts" program):

* Venture Scouting (aged 14-21),

* Exploring (aged 10-20) [0],

* and Sea Scouting (aged 14-20) [1]

However, there are plenty of university students that would be too old to take
advantage of programs that had an upper age limit of 25.

[0] [https://www.exploring.org/about-us/](https://www.exploring.org/about-us/)

[1] [http://join.seascout.org/join/](http://join.seascout.org/join/)

------
crikli
Ludicrous. You can buy a Garmin inReach Explorer Plus for $450, pay $25/month
for a subscription, and have two way messaging via Iridium/GPS/GLONASS
satellites, mapping, position sends every 10 minutes to an interactive map on
the website, and an SOS button that sends the cavalry if the shit really hits
the fan.

------
outside2344
But concussions by the football team, almost guaranteed to be happening on a
game by game basis, are totally ok (because money).

~~~
foxyv
Because football is a profit center and is already handled by actuarial
analysis for insurance purposes. Clubs on the other hand are risky non-profit
centers that are notoriously hard to insure. Just ask any council member for
the Boy Scouts of America about insurance...

------
dzdt
It reminds me so much of the 1990's when they ripped all of the tall slides
and monkey bars, all of the fast merry-go-rounds, etc. out of playgrounds for
younger kids. It is just moving up the chain. Where can it go next? Employer-
sponsored health insurance will require members not to participate in certain
activities?

~~~
Namrog84
I believe that's already a thing. In that some explicitly refuse to cover
certain dangerous activities

------
nwhatt
I think we’re not getting the full story. This same university tolerates
fraternity culture that literally killed someone last year. What ever actuary
looked at the outing club had to have looked at the fraternities too.

I wouldn’t be surprised if some kind of hazing or even worse behavior is the
real reason for the shutdown.

~~~
wishinghand
I don’t think it’s as sinister as you say. Plus they also allow football and
that’s far more dangerous.

~~~
nwhatt
Full disclosure I live in State College. Football is a dangerous sport yes -
but we have bears here. Both football and all activities the Outing club did
can be safe. The same can be said for fraternities, if responsible people are
involved it can be a rewarding experience for all.

I'm trying to point out that there may a larger crackdown at foot, and if the
clubs were involved in especially risky behavior, or hazing or worse we
probably won't hear about it.

Here's some frat crackdown news: [https://onwardstate.com/2017/11/08/another-
one-bites-the-dus...](https://onwardstate.com/2017/11/08/another-one-bites-
the-dust-10-of-49-penn-state-fraternities-now-suspended/)

And some moving reporting about the fraternity death.
[https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/a-death...](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/a-death-
at-penn-state/540657/)

------
hprotagonist
college football, of course, is completely safe in all respects!

------
Macha
As a non-American, Penn State didn't immediately register and I was thinking
this was about an organisation similar to scouts (i.e. for kids) and was
thinking this was already harsh. Then halfway through it dawned on me that
this was a university club and it seemed downright crazy.

------
imjustsaying
I didn't expect this from Reason, a libertarian magazine.

Libertarians tend to support free and voluntary association. The college is
not stopping these students from voluntarily hiking together. The college is
simply saying: we don't want to get eaten alive by the potential liability if
you hike together with our organization's name attached.

If anything, you'd think Reason would applaud the college for not strapping
the non-hiking student with the increased insurance costs of allowing the
hiking group to continue.

~~~
sfRattan
You're missing that the Student Activities Fee or equivalent at most American
universities is not voluntary. Students pay it (often several hundred dollars
or more) on top of tuition and other fees, and have only limited or indirect
control of where the fee goes. Here, the administration is giving a flat "no"
rather than seeking a way to make things work (insurance or a satellite phone
for the club).

That paternalism infantilizes the adult students and encourages a childlike
mindset of seeking safety in exchange for submission to an authority and its
power over you rather than an independent minded, solve-it-yourself, get-up-
and-go ethos more conducive to a free society.

~~~
wlesieutre
Re: Student Activities Fee, the current fee at PSU is $258, including $60.26
for student activities. Some of that is student organization insurance, the
bulk of it is allocated to activities by UPAC, the University Park Allocation
Committee. And IIRC a $50 default budget for any organization.

I used to be the treasurer for the Urban Gaming Club and got them UPAC funding
for "Nerf capture the flag" events run on Friday/Saturday nights in the
student union building. We had inflatable paintball bunkers and maybe 10
loaner blasters, most of the recurring attendees brought their own. Fun times.

EDIT: link for reference [http://www.studentfee.psu.edu/university-park/up-
how-the-fee...](http://www.studentfee.psu.edu/university-park/up-how-the-fee-
is-used/)

~~~
wlesieutre
Completely forgot to finish my thought, which is that a few hundred dollars
for an emergency beacon is a pretty small deal and I can't imagine UPAC would
decline it. They could probably get several.

With the $54.13 per student and an undergraduate population of roughly 46,000
on main campus, UPAC is allocating a budget of nearly $2.5 million per year.

[https://www.rei.com/product/843146/](https://www.rei.com/product/843146/) for
example. Buoyant, waterproof, and transmits a GPS location (some don't, and
are only triangulated to a few km by the receiving satellites). Costs $270.

~~~
wlesieutre
On the other hand, if Risk Management is concerned about financial risk rather
than student safety, calling search and rescue may not be cheap. But the risk
of needing this seems _very_ small. In the club's 98 year history has it ever
happened?

For actual student safety issues I would bet the top three are sports,
drinking, and street crossings (especially Atherton).

[http://www.collegian.psu.edu/news/crime_courts/article_9f27f...](http://www.collegian.psu.edu/news/crime_courts/article_9f27f418-dc18-11e5-aebe-
fbb046c48991.html)

>Josef Blunschi , a Ph.D. student and part-time university employee, was
crossing the intersection of East Park Avenue and McKee Street around 6:50
p.m. when he was struck by a vehicle travelling westbound toward Atherton
Street, police said.

>Three other pedestrians have been killed crossing streets on the north side
of campus in the last 20 months, State College Police Chief Thomas King said
at a press conference on Thursday.

------
megaman22
Sounds like the university is using their power of the purse in a shitty
overbearing way. Fortunately, college students are adults, and they can just
form their own unofficial organization and do what they want, particularly
since it's a perfectly legal set of activities.

------
tptacek
They're not keeping students from going on hikes or going caving, right?
They're just keeping them from doing it as an RSO?

~~~
larkeith
Which presumably prevents them from using university resources and funding. It
may also limit their ability to recruit and hold meetings on the campus,
depending on Penn State's policies.

So yes, this is still a fairly big deal for the Outing Club.

~~~
tptacek
Is the flip side of this official funding and support coin the fact that the
University's insurers will be on the hook for anything bad that happens during
one of these expeditions? In which case this isn't about helicopter parenting
so much as simple risk management.

I imagine the insurance situation for Penn State extracurriculars is already
problematic, given the recent history.

~~~
snowwrestler
I don't find the insurance argument compelling because so many other colleges
and universities have official outing clubs that are covered by the
institutional policy. It's not an unusual addition to a college insurance
policy.

~~~
tptacek
Penn State had a national scandal involving its extracurriculars just a few
years ago, so the level of scrutiny there might be higher.

------
xg15
> _I 'm furious that Penn State administration allows indoor activities but
> has hobbled healthy, outdoor leadership and controlled risk-taking
> opportunities_

Easy solution. Forbid indoor sports activities as well and mandate that
students spend all their freetime in the safety of their homes browsing
reddit.

------
DoreenMichele
_Maybe they can take virtual reality walks in a padded room—provided there 's
cell service._

We may need a great many more padded rooms if such insanity continues in the
world. It has never been easier to rescue someone in serious trouble in a
remote location, cell phone or no cell phone.

------
GCA10
Pete Hautman wrote a satirical novel about a decade ago, called "Rash," in
which a spirited teenager defies the very cautious norms of "The United Safer
States of America." Our hero gets sent off to a penal colony north of the
Arctic Circle, where he must make pizzas all day. Without giving away too
much, the system does not crush his spirit.

It's a weird book, but when well-meaning grown-ups are putting the squeeze on
adventurous students, I'm glad that such books (still) exist. Hope they don't
get banned. A link is here: [https://www.amazon.com/Rash-Pete-
Hautman/dp/0689869045](https://www.amazon.com/Rash-Pete-Hautman/dp/0689869045)

------
mcguire
" _...the angry alum who alerted me to this travesty,..._ "

Is there a version of this article _not_ written by the professionally
offended?

------
Johnny555
If lack of cell service in case of emergency is really the reason for denying
backwoods hikes, can't they just carry an emergency personal locator beacon?

~~~
83457
or even satellite phones which aren't that expensive

------
jopsen
> Student safety in any activity is our primary focus

~~~
crystalmeph
Maybe it’s time to rethink our collective focus on safety as the most
important attribute in everything we do.

We in the “first world” live in the safest period in human history, but we are
constantly being fed the idea that we are not safe enough, and we always need
to do more. The UK is collectively freaking out about knives and other
implements that are only “weapons” if you squint just right[0], and parents in
the United States risk being arrested for letting their children walk to the
park[1].

I’m not saying we should start freebasing (either kind) on the side of an
active volcano, but as safe as we are, we could accomplish amazing things in
space flight, medical technology, and food production if we just allow, or
even encourage, more informed risk taking.

[0][https://mobile.twitter.com/mpshackney/status/562993045759856...](https://mobile.twitter.com/mpshackney/status/562993045759856640?lang=en)

[1][https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/13/parent...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/13/parents-
investigated-letting-children-walk-alone/25700823/)

~~~
jopsen
My thought was more that schools should focus on teaching as a first priority.

------
cm2187
Another meaning for "safe space" in college!

------
bytematic
That sucks. Wisconsin could never touch the hoofers

------
ggm
I think the club should disband, and just happen to meet as individuals at the
walk venues.

------
joeevans1000
This will reduce environmental awareness. The school is being terrible. There
is no doubt the trips will resume eventually and these administrators will be
laughed at. This bad and comic action may well the legacy for a couple of
them.

------
lmilcin
This is administration in action. These people are bureaucrats. They should be
doing what they are doing best, ie. pushing paper. Instead they are allowed
deciding how the students should be shaped and this is wrong on so many
levels.

------
bsder
I suspect it's about legal liability for rape.

And they know that any "legitimate" reason they cook up is going to apply to
some other club or sport so they're keeping the report secret.

------
foota
I wonder if this is related to the incident at a different School where a kid
got locked in a cave for several days?

~~~
wishinghand
How does one get locked into a cave?

~~~
avhon1
This was at Indiana University (in Bloomington, Indiana) in Fall 2017. The
Indiana University Outdoor Adventures club went on a hike through a nearby
cave. To prevent vandalism and overtraffiking, the cave has a locking gate
inside the entrance. (Far enough inside that there is no cell signal at the
gate.) (I believe the key can be checked out from the park office.) One new
member fell behind the group, and:

* his assigned buddy completely forgot about him, and

* the club leaders failed to account for him at an end-of-hike headcount.

Later that weekend, somebody who was on the trip (I think it was his "buddy")
realized what had happened, contacted a club leader, and they drove out to the
cave. They found him just inside the entrance. He had spent about 2 nights
inside the cave with no food and little water. He was fine, but it caused a
bit of a ruckus in the news.

FWIW, the Indiana University Outdoor Adventures club continues to operate as a
university student organization. [0]

[0] [https://imu.indiana.edu/activities/outdoor-
adventures/index....](https://imu.indiana.edu/activities/outdoor-
adventures/index.html)

------
bovermyer
As a former student of Drexel, across the street from Penn State, this doesn't
surprise me.

~~~
grzm
That's UPenn in Philly. Penn State is in State College.

~~~
bovermyer
Well crap. Sorry for the misidentification.

------
strstr
Sounds like the university doesn’t want the liability. Students can just do
things anyway, so long as it’s not under the university’s purview. Annoying,
but not that bad.

~~~
autarch
It's more than just annoying. Schools typically offer opportunities for
funding to official clubs. I'm guessing this club needs to pay for things like
rental fees for equipment, equipment purchases, etc. Now students who want to
engage in these activities have to self-fund, which may not be possible.

Meanwhile other students can engage in much more dangerous activities
(downhill skiing, football, etc.) with school funding. That makes no sense.

~~~
jimmaswell
What is an outing club going to buy? Bug spray?

~~~
bsder
The northern third of Pennsylvania is almost all forest and is _really_ rural.
It's very easy to get lost.

GPS trackers would certainly be something I would have for every member of the
club.

~~~
megaman22
Its pretty hard to walk more than a few hours in a straight line anywhere on
the east coast without hitting a road of some sort.

Even the so-called 100 Mile Wilderness on the AT in northern Maine is
crisscrossed with dozens of logging roads.

Basic map and compass training would be better than GPS

~~~
kwhitefoot
> Basic map and compass training would be better than GPS

Surely any kind of hiking should include at least a little informal training
in using a map and a compass. I had that in primary school in the UK. Mind you
that was in the early sixties. Here in Norway children get an early
introduction to simple woodcraft (shelters, fire, tools, maps, compasses) in
primary school and have outings into the woods. My children would come home
with a brief letter saying that a trip to the woods was planned and could we
make sure that they were supplied with sausages to cook over a fire and a
knife to cut sticks with to make the fire and a rudimentary shelter. And they
did it before mobile phones were common too.

One of my sons was accidentally cut by a classmate but we didn't sue and he
came to no lasting harm. The trip was not called off, the teacher simply and
effectively bandaged it up and they all carried on. If primary school children
can manage then surely 20 year olds can.

~~~
bsder
Maps are great if you know where you are. If I'm in the woods, that may be
non-trivial to figure out.

In addition, GPS works fine in the standard conditions where you can't see
very well (heavy rain, snow or fog) which would make figuring out where you
are pretty stupidly difficult. This is extremely helpful even when using a
map.

Teach people to use a map and compass? Absolutely. However, GPS is really
useful.

> One of my sons was accidentally cut by a classmate but we didn't sue and he
> came to no lasting harm. The trip was not called off, the teacher simply and
> effectively bandaged it up and they all carried on. If primary school
> children can manage then surely 20 year olds can.

Most people think like this. The problem is that if even _one_ parent/student
winds up winning a big lawsuit, it ruins it for all the sensible people.

