
DIY recipes to make your own expensive pharma drugs - sprague
https://fourthievesvinegar.org/
======
dang
Discussed extensively at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15467379](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15467379),
still on the front page.

------
hprotagonist
From the frontmatter: >"A toast to the dead, for children with cancer and
AIDS/ A cure exists, and you probably could have been saved."

I appreciate the can-do attitude of biohacking, but this is A. flatly wrong
and B. a grave insult to every working pharma chemist.

from
[http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2014/04/15/swe...](http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2014/04/15/sweet_reason_lands_on_its_face):

 _Looking someone in the eye and asking them if they really are accusing me of
watching some of my family members die from diabetes, cancer, and heart
disease while I was hiding the cures and collecting my paycheck is an
uncomfortable conversation, but I’ve had it a few times.

The only counterattack has been that no, they’re not saying that I personally
have these things in my desk drawer, it’s the higher-ups, you know, them.

“So how have I been working on these diseases for 25 years without
rediscovering any of these cures?” I ask, and that generally winds things up.
But I like to think (or to kid myself) that I’ve planted a slight seed of
doubt.

You need as much conviction in your voice as the quacks have, though, and
that’s not easy, because they have a lot. Science has the evidence on its
side, naturally, and that’s a lot, but conspiracy theorists and their friends
have something to believe in, and that’s a very strong part of human nature
indeed._

~~~
mustacheemperor
I didn't read that as a suggestion there's some secret AIDs vaccine kept
locked away by big pharma, rather that many have died because of lack of
access to the treatments that exist.

~~~
peller
Yea I mean, it's part of a lyric from a song so it's debatable whether it's
meant to be taken literally or if he just needed something that sorta rhymes:

A toast to the dead / For children with cancer and AIDS / A cure exists and
you probably could've been saved / Sad to see medicine divorce morality /
Corporate home-wreckers pimpin' up the salary

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLBNMhzn8VI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLBNMhzn8VI)

------
hvindin
As an Australian, i.e. someone who lives in a country which doesn't assume
that being poor is a good enough reason for someone to be allowed to die. As
well as the brother of a scientist who often runs experiments involving the
synthesis of new drugs, I had a torrent of extreme reactions to seeing that
this site exists.

1\. My immediate reaction was holy shit no, if a situation exists where your
countrymen are trying to hack together potentially lethal drugs and medical
procedures because you don't have facilities in place to save them, then
whatever political decisions you are making, whatever trade deals you are
signing, whatever wars you are fighting: stop ALL OF THAT SHIT AND FIX THIS
FIRST.

2\. Oh my god what a terrible way to die. I understand that this site is
probably well-intentioned. I know that for someone with access to a
pharmaceutical lab and who has experience in the small-scale manufacture of
drugs intended for consumption by living creatures (experiments) including
humans (clinical trials) it may make sense that we could just synthesise our
own drugs. But failing to recognise that there are very real and very likely
scenarios where people will die because you (or someone with your expertise)
are not on hand to help them immediately if they fuck up.

I can't help but think that the existence of this site is a net harm to the
world, there's just no way the risk calculation is the same between a chemical
engineer and a regular chap who needs medication as to the possibility of just
making it at home. Making it seem like this is a thing you think that you
should do just sounds like bad advice.

But on the other hand, I'm so appalled by the ability of America as a nation
to do terrible things such as let its citizens die from treatable illness,
that this kind of makes sense. It just feels like the wrong problem to be
solving.

I mean, how about focusing on fixing the broken medical system, avoiding
killing all the people who aren't white and making it just a little harder for
insane people to get guns. While you're at it, you might even want to try and
drop "racist as shit" from the assumptions of the rest of the world about your
country.

~~~
fjsolwmv
Perhaps you should show some gratitude to the Americans who paid for the
invention of all the drugs you enjoy.

And maybe work on your country's persecution of homosexuals and aboriginals
before you get on your high horse and point it at America.

~~~
tentaTherapist
Can you and GP please avoid turning this into a battle to see which is the
worse country?

~~~
throwingerman
It's sad that the GP's post is showing support for Americans by pointing out
that they should all have health care, and someone is triggered into believing
it was an attack.

------
refurb
Go talk to an organic chemistry PhD student and ask them how likely this is to
work. The answer is "not likely". Organic synthesis is difficult even for a
trained expert. Hell, even the pharmaceutical manufacturers screw it up
sometimes.

And that's not even thinking about the possibility of unintended side
reactions that create toxic products. Do a google search for "MPTP" if you
want to read about amateur synthesis. A ton of people ended up with
Parkinson's disease due to a bad synthesis.

~~~
burntrelish1273
Gotta bodge together, rent, borrow, steal or buy an old mass-spec that works,
otherwise taking untested kitchen drugs shares a lot of risks in common with
taking street drugs.

~~~
olympus
Would a RamanPi [[https://hackaday.io/project/1279-ramanpi-raman-
spectrometer](https://hackaday.io/project/1279-ramanpi-raman-spectrometer)]
work for verifying that you made the correct thing? It is probably lower cost
than getting a hold of an old lab machine.

~~~
burntrelish1273
Try it. :D Just better calibrate it often with whatever stable molecules are
used for that and borrowing a known-good, real machine. Maybe record the
uncorrected reading to get the drift (both kinds ;) at each calibration so you
know if it's wearing out, eg, needs to be calibrated more often or replaced if
it's a PITA.

------
hmwhy
I think home made reactors is a terrible idea. As a few comments have already
pointed out, many things could go wrong in a synthesis—the fact that are
trusting users to make a reactor to begin with is already an awful idea.

In addition, chemists are not just trained to “make stuff”—the average person
isn’t trained to handle toxic chemicals. Even if a person is aware of how to
handle chemicals properly, accidents really do happen.

A good example is that bromoethane is listed as a starting material for
Daraprim on this website—Google for the MSDS for this chemical and you will
know what I mean.

Then there are the clean up and analyses after you have made something. No,
it’s not as simple as checking melting points.

I appreciate that people try to take it into the hands to fight what I
personally consider to be unfair, but I think this is not how it’s done and
it’s a terrible idea.

~~~
delbel
from what I gather this information is for people who can rationally establish
their own risk/rewards envelope, invoking an ethical argument. the target
audience would be the person disciplined in concepts (from the top of my head)
Informed consent, Precautionary Principle, the Hippocratic Oath, the
scientific method, and very good at challenging cognitive fallacies, fact
based scientific evidence, etc. An argument could be made that if an
individual, for whatever circumstances beyond their control, is unable to get
the medicine they need, and if they are capable of understanding some key
concepts, they should have the right to do this (if they have the means to do
it).

------
peteretep
Always worth remembering “A Simple and Convenient Synthesis of Pseudoephedrine
From N-Methylamphetamine“

[http://heterodoxy.cc/meowdocs/pseudo/pseudosynth.pdf](http://heterodoxy.cc/meowdocs/pseudo/pseudosynth.pdf)

------
mrkgnao
NurdRage, a relatively popular YouTuber, also replicated the Epipencil
experiment on his channel.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoQajOum6wA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoQajOum6wA)

The reason I'm bringing him up is that he synthesised Daraprim (pyrimethamine)
from domestically-available materials over a period of ~2 years.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddCuWX4vtOA&list=PLU79801KtV...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddCuWX4vtOA&list=PLU79801KtVAU1XsTwHaKkqQoBgz_VYmPS)

There's an NMR spectrum at about 12:08 in the last video in the playlist,
which shows that he doesn't quite have medical-grade Daraprim, and that he'd
need a lot of purification to get there.

------
Mz
I boggle that a) this site exists and b) it is getting any traction on HN.
Because this is guilty of all the things I have been accused of in terms of
being irresponsible and dangerous and possibly profit motivated.

How do sites like this seemingly thrive (Goop!) when doing something really
conservative like talking about food chemistry and germ control is such insane
drama? I just don't get it.

(I have a form of cystic fibrosis and have spent a lot of years getting
stronger and healthier using primarily dietary and lifestyle changes. I used
to be really open about that, which was nothing but an ugly shit show every
step of the way.

I am probably making a huge mistake to comment on that. There seems to be zero
path forward for me. I genuinely don't understand it.)

------
mbroncano
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I'd like to suggest that possibly
something is seriously wrong in our society if we need to revert to home made
drugs instead of what pretty much the rest of the civilized world does:
providing them to their citizens by means of a single payer, universal health
care system.

~~~
maxerickson
This comes up all the time. Lots of systems are universal without being single
payer.

Or look at Medicaid. It has 50 payers (or more, not sure how territories are
implemented). ~1/4 of Americans get health coverage through Medicaid.

~~~
fjsolwmv
Medicaid is single payer in each jurisdiction. You can't effectively shop for
a different Medicaid provider.

------
fernly
Make your own meds at home? What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

~~~
toomuchtodo
You could die. Which could also happen if you can't afford the medication
regardless.

~~~
refurb
Pretty much every pharmaceutical manufacturer has a free product program for
patients who can't afford (or their insurance company won't pay for) the drug.

I'd rather go that route than start a lab in my garage.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Then why are people having to go without prescription medication they can't
afford?

EDIT: citations

"Millions of adults skip medications due to their high cost Howard LeWine,
M.D."

[https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/millions-skip-
medication...](https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/millions-skip-medications-
due-to-their-high-cost-201501307673)

"Almost 1 in 10 Americans Can't Afford Medications Says CDC"

[http://www.renalandurologynews.com/news/cdc-americans-can-
no...](http://www.renalandurologynews.com/news/cdc-americans-can-not-afford-
medications-eight-percent/article/395374/)

"Most Say They Can Afford Their Prescription Drugs, But One in Four Say Paying
is Difficult, Including More Than Four in Ten People Who are Sick"

[https://www.kff.org/health-costs/press-release/most-say-
they...](https://www.kff.org/health-costs/press-release/most-say-they-can-
afford-their-prescription-drugs-but-one-in-four-say-paying-is-difficult-and-
more-than-four-in-ten-for-people-who-are-sick/)

"Even the Insured Often Can't Afford Their Medical Bills"

[https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/medical...](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/medical-
bills/530679/)

~~~
refurb
Not sure. Maybe they don't know about the programs?

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Or maybe you're overstated the generosity of drug manufacturers.

~~~
refurb
Did you take a look at the manufacturer program criteria? I have.

------
agotterer
Michael Laufer (One of the guys behind this project) gave a talk at HOPE 2016
about making and torrenting Daraprim. It is as an excellent talk and worth
checking out. [https://youtu.be/NjQ7yLmeqUw](https://youtu.be/NjQ7yLmeqUw)

------
jeremy_wiebe
Didn’t read the article but the headline immediately reminded me of this:
[http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thisisthat/fake-ontario-trees-
teen-s...](http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thisisthat/fake-ontario-trees-teen-suit-
trend-unicycle-cop-handmade-pharmaceuticals-1.3791725/handmade-homemade-
pharmaceuticals-all-the-rage-at-new-brunswick-farmers-market-1.3791753)

“Homemade, handmade pharmaceuticals”.

------
pizza
Good on them for including a blueprint of Naloxone

------
tyingq
Aside from being a bad idea there is no actual content describing how to
synthesize anything. Any chemists about? Is it even plausible for the
medications he's talking about, like Hep C treatments?

~~~
refurb
Non-chemists make illegal drugs all the time. That said, the syntheses tend to
be one or two steps and pretty basic.

Could a random person do a 5 step synthesis using specialized reagents? No.

------
api
When we built the Internet this is the future we thought we were building.
More please.

------
Ice_cream_suit
"A DIY Epinephrine Autoinjector for just over $30"

Do it wrong, and a child dies...

