
My Custom Payment Implant - c0inster
https://forum.dangerousthings.com/t/my-custom-payment-conversion-experience/7668/
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dtx1
This is such a bad idea it's beyond words. Why would you implant something
that will 100% be outdated within the span of a few years and and can be done
just as easily with a watch, a phone or a plastic card, things you very, very
likely carry on you anyway. Even if you don't have a wallet because your
minimalistic or whatever and you don't have a watch because you have a phone
that shows the time YOU STILL HAVE A FREAKING PHONE FOR THAT.

Don't take this the wrong way i had a magnet implanted in my finger for a
while so i am not against body mods but this is just plain stupid.

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vasco
You can use the exact same argument for carrying a small magnet in your
pocket. The satire might be going over my head though.

~~~
dtx1
No Satire here. The thing about the magnet in the finger is that you can not
only feel metals or other magnets but with it beeing implanted near a very
sensitive nerves you can feel alternating magnetic fields, for example
transformers, electric powerlines etc. Thats something a magnet in my pocket
cannot do. That beeing said, my magnet got rejected pretty fast and i chose
not to reimplant it after that since i also had problems typing with it.

My argument for a magnet, even though it might lose magnetic power over time,
compared to an RFID Chip is that the magnet implanted gives you a new sense
that you cannot get without implanting it. Compared to a rfid for paying which
can be replaced by a phone/watch/card without losing functionality and magnets
aren't going to become obsolete by the whimps of a bank or cc provider.

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whatshisface
> _with it beeing implanted near a very sensitive nerves you can feel
> alternating magnetic fields, for example transformers, electric powerlines
> etc._

That sounds like the worst experience ever, it would be like giving yourself
touch tinnitus.

~~~
dtx1
Oh no it's super harmless. You can only feel it close to a source like when
you feel your hand along a wall with an embedded wire running main AC. The
only time I was genuinely surprised by it was when i walk past a motor in a
train that was starting up but even then it wasn't annoying.

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kanobo
If you didn't make it to the very end, he finds out from his bank right after
the implant that the PayTag will no longer be supported in 3 years! What an
unfortunate turn of events!

~~~
nine_k
This is quite expected. If the subdermal installation was so quick, so should
be the removal, too.

What is _really_ sad that the card (and so the implant) can be compromised any
moment because CC data sometimes get stolen, and banks cancel and replace a
card even on mere suspicion that it could have happened. So it could as well
be arbitrarily shorter than 3 years.

I understand the cool factor, but, to my mind, it's not not great from the
systems-building angle. Usually you want more modularity and easier
modification or replacement of any part, not more of a monolith.

~~~
dan1234
Looks like this was some sort of proxy card, which is just associated with the
actual card, so it shouldn’t need to be physically changed if the parent card
is compromised.

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wfriesen
A company run by the same guy as Dangerous Things is Vivokey, who are hoping
to have (among other things) payment capabilities supported by Visa/Mastercard
on on upcoming implant, the Apex. That should allow them to be updated with
new details so they won't expire permanently:
[https://www.vivokey.com/apex](https://www.vivokey.com/apex)

I have a beta version that can do crypto operations such as PGP
decrypting/signing and generating OTP entirely on the implant.

~~~
bntyhntr
Taking a look, it looks like they want to be an identity provider as well as
hocking implants. tbh it's kinda weirding me out. Does the more complicated
stuff like bank payment require a vivokey identity?

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ulrikrasmussen
I appreciate the coolness factor, but from a practical perspective I think it
would make more sense to go with something that's wearable but more easy to
replace, such as a ring or even a piercing.

~~~
boring_twenties
Piercing seems like a really bad idea unless you can guarantee that no
malicious actor will find out about it. Those things hurt when they're ripped
out.

~~~
ulrikrasmussen
The risk of that happening would seem to be equal to or less than the risk of
you getting robbed of your credit card, which also carries a risk of physical
damage. Normal high-value piercings such as expensive earrings carry a greater
risk of theft as they are much easier to covert to money. A wireless payment
device requires a second factor for large withdrawals and can easily be
blocked.

~~~
boring_twenties
Yeah, I think you're right.

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seanwilson
Cool! How do you confirm the chip isn't going to have any weird reaction under
the skin later? And there's minimal risk implanting it in the first place will
cause damage?

~~~
fuzxi
From what I remember, this is handled in the "conversion" process mentioned.
Part of that is coating the entire implant in medical grade silicone.

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ed25519FUUU
> _My bank contacted me to tell me that the PayTag will no longer be supported
> in 3 years time, So this is obviously disappointing_

I definitely think this is a cool concept, but how do you get passed the
planned obsolescence of these implants?

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XorNot
To be fair in terms of the cyberpunk future this is one of the problems built
into the setting in fiction. Upgrades, firmware versions and planned
obsolescence.

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unixhero
Ah the old mark of the beast. No just no, this is a future I don't want to
become part of.

~~~
surajs
you don't have to, there are better alternatives ;)

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numbers
Read through most of this and I was thinking this is a pretty weird thing to
get implanted. In which world would it be necessary to have a payment implant?

With Coronavirus, it’s clear contactless payments are becoming common place.
But I’d venture to say we’re going to continue moving towards things like
online ordering for almost everything imaginable and then picking it up which
means rarely would I need to show/use my credit cards.

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bserge
I'm sometimes thinking about an implant, but then I realize a ring or bracelet
would work better.

A current concept I've been fiddling with is a personal assistant that's
always on me.

Yes, a phone, but strapped to my back. Why? Because I can't leave it somewhere
or change the volume or ignore it.

It's meant to nag me until I finish the task (verification/confirmation is
difficult though).

~~~
scatters
That's a smartwatch. Obviously you need an incentive to wear it continually;
that could be exercise (step counting), health tracking (heart rate plus (as
of a few months ago) pulse oximetry), etc.

Also you can get contactless payment, and it can even tell the time.

After a few months you get used to wearing a watch continually again.

~~~
bserge
That's an option, but I hate watches. Always have for some reason, even when
it was the only portable accessory I had it in my pocket.

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aminozuur
That looks fun. But in practice, from your video it seems you need to keep the
implant extremely close, and hold it near the chip reader for a few secs
before it’s recognized and accepted. That’s a major downside. I use Apple Pay
and swing my phone somewhere close near it and it’s done within a second.

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neurostimulant
An implanted payment chip seem to be an interesting idea. You could be
stranded anywhere in the world with nothing but an underwear and still
carrying enough money to get by (assuming the contactless payment protocol
used by the implant is accepted everywhere). A wildly unlikely scenario for
most people. A more likely scenario is it allows you to pay something when you
forgot to bring your wallet and your phone and you have to make the payment
now or never. Or maybe you could be in a beach with nothing but a swimsuit and
want to buy an ice cream without grabbing your wallet in the locker.

Realistically, I will never do a minor surgical operation just for having an
ability to pay without my phone or wallet. My intolerance of needle and pain
far outweigh the benefits of having this implant :)

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troupe
> You could be stranded anywhere in the world with nothing but an underwear

I am curious about the life choices of people who see planning for this type
of situation a worthwhile investment of their time. :)

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aralroca
I think it's a little crazy. The implanted material over several months your
body may not accept it. This should be tested very well. And I don't see a big
benefit, since you can pay with your cell phone.

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rozab
We've been implanting electronics in people for a very long time, we have a
good understanding of the process now.

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ciconia
"I buy, therefore I am"

~~~
odomojuli
Puts a whole new emphasis on the sum part of cogito ergo sum

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kiddico
Oh man, I was not able to make it through that needle video... I love the
body-mod community, but I don't think I'm fit to serve in their ranks.

~~~
rkagerer
I kept thinking no, no, No NO NO Make It Stop!

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aflag
How permanent is this implant? Can it be easily removed?

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elliekelly
I’m not sure about removing an implant from the hand like in the article but
I’ve had the similarly sized/shaped Implanon removed and replaced from my arm
several times. It’s just a small incision, a pair of tweezers to pull it out,
and a stitch or two to close it back up. The whole procedure takes less than
15 minutes. They could probably do it in five but I’m kind of squeamish so
they go slow. They use local anesthetic so you can’t feel the incision but you
can still feel the implant coming out and your skin being pulled which grosses
me out big time.

