
Ask HN: Any experience with defiant children? - rymohr
My oldest son is now 6 years old and grows more defiant by the day. He frequently tries to physically hurt me, his mom, and his younger sisters (ages 1 and 3).<p>We&#x27;ve tried the whole &quot;natural consequences&quot; thing and he doesn&#x27;t care. He just uses it as an excuse to get angrier and call you names.<p>Timeouts don&#x27;t work either. It&#x27;s gotten to the point that we cannot get him to settle down without physically restraining him. I literally tied him to his bedpost this weekend so he would stop slamming doors and breaking stuff in his room while he was supposed to be on timeout.<p>Since the HN crowd comes from such a diverse background, I was hoping someone out there has experience with this kind of behavior and can offer some advice. None of the methods we know of are working and he is quickly wearing our family down to the bone. I&#x27;m not sure how much more my wife can take.
======
mindfulgeek
Being a parent can be super hard. It sounds like your wife could use some down
time and space from your son. Please encourage her to go out with a friend,
get a pedicure or do something that will fill her cup.

I have a high needs 8 year old. I find there are certain things that always
trigger her -- poor sleep, hunger, watching TV/playing video games, too much
play with other people. It takes a lot of discipline to keep these in balance,
but the effort pays off most of the time.

As far as discipline goes, every child has different needs and every parent
has their own style. Most likely there is an underlying cause to the behavior
-- be it developmental, physical, emotion -- and as parents we rarely know the
true cause.

"Time in" rather than "Time out," reading together, going outside in nature
can all be healing.

Hand in Hand Parenting has some good gentle discipline resources. "Raising
Your Spirited Child" or "The Highly Sensitive Child" may be good resource to
assess your son's temperament.

The "Your X-Year Old" series of books is often a good measuring stick to
figure out age expected behaviors.

Time ins, punishment, rewards, etc are all linked to short term wins -- not
long term success. "Unconditional Parenting" is one of my favorite books on
the subject.

Finally, if this is a new behavior, it is possible there was an outside
catalyst -- not what a parent wants to think about. Do work on giving your son
tools to communicate -- words, drawings, a good understanding of his biology
(age appropriate). Having a neutral professional he can talk to is helpful as
well.

Good luck -- what a lucky son to have a father so humble as to ask for help.

~~~
thorin
Agree with the above. My daughter is nearly 3 and very confident and
energetic. My wife picked up this book [https://www.amazon.co.uk/1-2-3-Magic-
Effective-Discipline-Pa...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/1-2-3-Magic-Effective-
Discipline-Parenting/dp/1889140430) and is using the techniques. It seems to
be working. It's more a means of training the adult not the child. Try not to
freak out when they do the wrong thing but make them know it's not acceptable.
Reward and give attention for good behavior and don't hold a grudge.

Good luck!

------
andymurd
My son went through a similar stage when he was just learning about his own
anger.

Once we all realised that he didn't want to be angry it got a lot easier for
everyone. We gave him words and guidance to let him analyse his anger, helped
him to try different means of coping with his feelings and then incentives to
apply those tools.

BTW StackExchange's parenting community[0] is a good place to find answers to
issues like this.

[0] [http://parenting.stackexchange.com/](http://parenting.stackexchange.com/)

~~~
rymohr
Thanks, hopefully that's the stage we're getting to. My wife hung posters on
the walls with exercises to help him calm down and I've been quitting work
early to be able to spend more 1-on-1 time with him in the afternoons.

What incentives worked for you? We've tried the points/sticker chart thing
without any luck (allowing him to redeem his points for audio books, tv shows,
treats, and even Dave and Buster's if he saved up a lot).

~~~
andymurd
Motivating factors are different for everyone so find what ticks his boxes.

We had a chart of 7 faces which could be happy or sad, one per day for a week,
that he fills in at the end of each day. He gets a warning when he first
starts to act up then a sad face if he carries on. All smiley faces means a
small toy at the weekend.

Filling in the chart some long time after the behaviour was important as it
allowed for calm(er) reflection on the consequences of bad behaviour.

It took a couple of weeks to see an improvement but over all has worked really
well for us.

~~~
rymohr
Sounds like a great idea. We've tried the point chart but haven't tried to
capture his behavior over time in a way that's visible to him.

------
rubyfan
Hang in there. I have a 5 year old who went through a phase like that. Mom
gets really worked up and short tempered due to his acting up, talking back,
slamming doors, etc. In our situation I observed that the escalation and
increasing punishment didn't accomplish much. What worked in our situation was
to try to understand what was driving his behavior and getting him to talk
about what he was feeling and to try to get him to understand I would help
him. He still has a tendency to some odd behavior but he's 5 and we are all a
bit weird at that age. I'm hopeful it'll pass.

~~~
rymohr
Yeah the stress it's causing my wife is one of the hardest parts about it. She
got her BS in child development, worked at the local CDRC in college, and
always assumed parenting would come easy for her. Thank god our 3-year old
daughter is the sweetest thing in the world.

When I was in high school I remember my mom losing it one night and saying she
wished I was never born. Those things stick for life and my wife is very much
at that point.

~~~
rubyfan
Yeah that's a point I've tried keep us from but she's said similar things not
in his presence thankfully.

For us we definitely saw a correlation with acting out and timing of him
becoming a big brother. He was already going through a phase of acting out and
testing limits but when he found out he was going to be a big brother all that
behavior escalated a bit and was more frequent.

At this age they are too young to know how to deal with emotions of not being
the center of attention. You almost can't reason with them because they don't
act rationally and they just don't know how to deal with their emotions. I've
been able to break through with him quite a bit by removing him from the
escalating situations and talking to him and convincing him I'm trying to
help. It's hard, and doesn't always work but when it does he actually calms
down and will tell the truth about his feelings - much of which is related to
his brother and some of it is us just not understanding his intent on his
actions and reacting to something we think is bad.

In my son's case he's already a bit weird and my wife has on more that one
occasion suggested he has autism because he won't eat certain foods, doesn't
like loud noises, etc. I think he's unique and creative and has a big
imagination like all kids do. I'm not interested in diagnosing him and making
him a robot. It's tough at times but we take it day by day.

~~~
rymohr
Sounds like we're very much in the same boat. He definitely took a turn for
the worse when his little sis was born.

He's a very creative and strong willed boy. Loves people and loves to talk. If
he's left to his own he does alright, but unfortunately he has zero concern
for anyone else's safety so he's not able to do that very often. The words
"no" and "stop" have been far too frequent in our house lately but it's really
hard when you have a newborn and he's jumping off his bunk bed and nearly
crushing her.

We like weird too. We have friends raising robots and I'm honestly not sure
which is more painful to watch -- my son losing it or their kids acting like
grownups.

~~~
rubyfan
Yeah really does sound like we're in the same boat, you just described my son.

------
gluggymug
Kids sports. It's a stress reliever and teaches them discipline, respect for
rules, and social skills with other kids.

I actually coach kids from ages 6 - 12 in Judo but team sports can be good
also. It's rewarding to see kids mature mentally through training in sports. I
have had some real problem kids improve their behaviour over time.

Once they get to about 6, they are mentally ready to learn an organized sport
and the challenge is good for them.

------
danielvf
This is a really a hard place to be. It's great that you recognize that there
is a problem, are working to fix it, and are moving your schedule around to
give your wife a break.

Somewhere in our firstborn's terrible twos, my wife and I also were trying
everything, and nothing was working. Here's the big thing I figured out:

I'm used to working with computer programs and computers. If you give
computers the right input, you get the right output. Right then and there.
Kids are not nearly that deterministic. When you have a big issue like this,
you can do the exact, perfect, correct action, and your son would still likely
respond badly. This makes it really hard to judge how good your actions are
when you naturally measure your actions by your son's responses. This results
in a desperate flailing around trying to find something that works.

With our son, I finally realized that I had to just make a plan with the best
I knew so far, stick to it, and keep a good humor throughout. A change in my
child's thinking will pretty much only happen when they decide to change. You
create the conditions where there's obvious, immediate feedback, avoid turning
it into a personal fight, and one day they'll wake up and stop battling.

(If you'd like to talk specifics, or anything else, feel free to email me.)

------
new_hackers
I would recommend trying to show the defiant child that he really does need
others.

If he tears up his room, then remove anything you care about and let him tear
the rest up.

If he is not nice and polite during mealtime, then he does not eat. Or the
meal that is provided is very basic, and must be eaten in the room.

Eventually you may have to remove all forms of pleasure, including toys,
games, nice clothes, etc.

During this process, communicate that you all love him, but do not like how he
is acting. Explain that nice polite behavior will be rewarded. You will
eventually feel like you are running a small jail, but eventually it will sink
in.

Also hard work is very good at wearing kids out. If you have the opportunity
then digging a hole is good therapy. Make him dig a good hole before he can
have dinner, and it must be done right, or back to the room. After dinner,
make him fill it back up. Once he starts correcting, give more useful chores
like sweeping floors.

Keep up the communication, and work on directing the energy towards physical
activities and praising polite behavior. Perhaps a game of horse with dad
would be a good reward.

Good luck!

------
danieltillett
Having read through all the comments and your responses it appears your son is
capable of controlling himself, but knows he can get away with his behaviour
in private. There is only one solution which is for him to learn that his
private behaviour is not going to be tolerated any more. How you do this is up
to you and your wife, but once you go down this path do not turn back.

~~~
rymohr
He can to a point, but once he gets tired / bored the behavior comes out even
in public.

Yesterday my wife took the kids to the beach and tried to get a photo of the
three of them together. In the sequence you see him pull our 3-year old down
and then start chewing on his fingers while he's smacking our 1-year old in
the back (not hard but quick repeated pats). The last shot is him staring at
the camera with his fingers in his mouth and his other hand hitting the side
of his head.

It's an incredibly sad photo for my wife and I to look at. He's obviously
tormented by something internally but nobody we've worked with has a clue what
it is or how to help him cope with it.

~~~
danieltillett
In this case this might be a situation that you just need to endure since if
he can’t control himself then nothing you can do can really help.

Do you have a relative that it he could go and stay with for a time? Moving to
a new location can break people out of the behavioural mould that have got
stuck in and having him spend some time in a new location with new people
might allow him stop his self-distructive behaviour.

------
fasteo
I have a child with severe ADHD and ODD (oppositional defiant disorder)

My only advice: Seek professional assistance. Now.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
This.

As a parent, you want to remain calm and not accidentally start giving a child
a bunch of problems that he may not actually have. At the same time, it's
quite useful to have somebody's opinion who's seen hundreds of different kids
and can provide you with some context.

So find an expert, and then go spend some time talking to them -- both with
and without the kid. At the end of the day, it's your decision what to do, but
it's always good to talk to somebody with a bit wider view than you might
have. After all, it's basically the same thing you're doing now on HN, except
this would be talking to somebody who actually specializes in these things.

------
watmough
Get him drawing or some other outlet.

Is he on the autism spectrum. The right teacher or school program might
transform him. Please ffs stop restraining him.

------
sharmi
There have been lots of good suggestions.

I am just adding to that. I do not know your real situation so I am just
extrapolating. It could be that his siblings are taking a good share of
parental attention that was once fully his. Especially his mother's.

If so, you will need to patiently work with him to show you are fair to all
kids. Once the mother is free enough to spend time with him, this behaviour
will subside. She will currently be having her hands full with the little ones
and you might have to pitch in.

With time and patience he will be back to his calm self. Next to your 3 and 1
year old, he might seem older but remember that he is still just a kid and not
too emotionally different from a 3 year old.

When, the going gets difficult, remember this too shall pass and some time in
the future, you will use this experience to help out another harried parent!

Outdoor free play can release some of the kid's pent-up energy and that
certainly helps

Ensure the kid is getting enough sleep too.

~~~
rymohr
Thanks for the encouragement.

Your point about remembering he's just a kid is spot on. He seems SO old
compared to his sisters, but every once in a while he'll say something that
strikes that chord and makes you remember just how young he still is and how
much help he still needs.

We've been hiring baby sitters this summer so my wife can do 1-on-1 dates with
him twice a week. He has a blast with her but then immediately relapses as
soon as they get back to the house. Almost makes things worse because you feel
like you're doing something right for once and then it ultimately ends up
backfiring.

He usually gets about 10 hours of sleep (goes down around 7:30 and usually up
around 6 or 6:30).

------
dzdt
I have a five-year-old with a big defiant streak. Every kid is different, and
what works for one kid or one parent won't necessarily work for another.

One strategy that works sometimes is defuse and distract. When the kid is
fighting against you and not listening, go to "oh, so you want to be tickled"
and get them laughing long enough to forget that they were mad or defiant.

Or suggest silly alternatives -- put his pants on his head if he fights
getting dressed, or pretend-feed his food to the teddy bear, and the plant,
and the microwave, etc., if he won't eat it.

Timeouts with the kid alone don't work well for us either; but sitting with
them and waiting until they sit still and settle down does sometimes.

The hard part is always time. With enough patient one-on-one grownup time we
can get through any one defiant fight well enough, but when you are in a rush
and the other kids need attention too... it is hard.

~~~
dzdt
Other ideas: make a deal and put it in writing. When he is calm after some
incident, sit down and talk through it. Ask him what he should have done, and
what you should have done. Let him come up with the ideas. (Really! He will
surprise you and come up with good ones!) Then write it down and you both sign
it. Next time the same situation comes up, follow the script you agreed on and
remind him he signed it.

I got this one from a parenting book. I tried it one time with my kid, and now
we have an agreement when she misbehaves in public I will tell her "What the
heck!" and she will remember to snap out of it. It kind of works, not perfect,
but it surely helped.

------
GFK_of_xmaspast
The obvious thing to do is seek professional assistance, starting with a child
psychologist and / or a family therapist.

~~~
rymohr
He's already seeing an OT at his school but it doesn't seem to be helping
much. Not sure what the next step up is.

For the most part he behaves fine out in public (or when he knows he's being
tested). But once he gets home he's an absolute terror.

~~~
throwzway
Have you considered recording him and playing back the recordings to him? It
might embarrass him a bit or hopefully let him see how outrageous he's acting?
At the very least it might be helpful to show a professional specializing in
child behaviour.

I am not a parent but had experience raising a family members child. I was
also a "problem child" similar to your description (probably worse).

------
meric
_Timeouts don 't work either_

This avoids the problem.

 _physically restraining him_

This exacerbates the problem. How can anyone trust someone who physically ties
them down? Can you start any kind of relationship like this, let alone
continue one with your parent? One cannot respond to emotional abuse and
physical abuse with emotional abuse and physical abuse, and expect the
relationship to improve.

 _natural consequences_

Googling this.

    
    
        Natural consequences are the inevitable result of a child's 
        own actions. For example, despite Dad's urging him to put on
        his coat, Tommy goes outside when it's cold without wearing a 
        coat. The natural result is that Tommy gets cold.
    

If you mean he wouldn't wear a coat even if it's cold, and ignores the cold,
then by all means let him continue.

 _get angrier and call you names._

How do you feel when he is angry and call you names? Not the "parent armor"
that you wear. Turn that off, turn off the "I'm doing this for your own good",
turn off the "I'm parent so I can tell you what to do". But how do you, the
child inside you, the one who feel secure in the love of your parents, feel
inside? Let that child out. If you're going to cry and stay at home in bed all
day hiding because you can't handle the emotions, then do that.

That's natural consequence.

Avoid raising your voice, avoid coercing him to do your wish, avoid tieing him
down. If he would stay at home than go with you to picnic, trust him, and let
you or your wife stay at home to make sure he is safe, while the rest of the
family continue on. Let him physically hurt you (but not your wife or other
children), unless your life is in danger.

The fact that you put natural consequence in quotes, shows you can respect it
a little more.

EDIT; But it is very good you are asking for help, it is on the path to
becoming a good father.

~~~
rymohr
The natural consequences are more along the lines of...

Don't like dinner? That's fine, don't eat. Then he goes in and makes a bowl of
ice cream. What's the natural consequence approach there?

Same when he's taking his frustration out on his toys. Eventually one actually
breaks and now he's sad _and_ angry and directs his emotions at his mom and
sisters.

Just this week he figured out how to climb over our fence and out into the
street. Is the natural consequence to let him be run over or kidnapped?

I put "natural consequences" in quotes because I think it's a joke. If your
dealing with problems that have natural consequences you don't actually have
much of a problem.

~~~
meric
_What 's the natural consequence approach there?_

I would ask him for his favourite ice cream, take him out to the supermarket
if he likes to come with me, buy a 2L box of it, and let him eat it the whole
night if he wishes. Be happy he's enjoying the moment, enjoy it yourself,
connect with him. Repeat this every night until he wants to eat something
else. He has to find out, using his own experience, why it's unpleasant to eat
only ice cream for dinner every night, so that, one day, a week from now, a
month, two months, he would choose to eat proper dinner because he truly wants
to, from his heart, rather than doing it because his parents are forcing him
to.

If he's going to be a broken man either way, at least he grew up with a father
who listened and empathised with him, and accepted him for who he is, rather
than being physically restrained in bed, yelled at and controlled.

To love someone, we accept their choices, even when we know those choices have
bad consequences, at the same time we trust they will eventually find their
own way.

 _mom and sisters._

How does your wife react, and what does she actually feel? Inside she's upset
and hurt and worn out to be blamed for something outside of her control, but I
have a hunch she doesn't act that way in front of him. You can't force her to
be vulnerable in front of him, but you could redirect his anger to yourself,
explain to him why you're doing that (your wife is worn out and you want to
protect her), and then you could choose to show him your sadness when he's
angry at you.

 _I put "natural consequences" in quotes because I think it's a joke._

I'd love to know if any techniques I could try, that would work, while
treating it as a joke. I'm serious.

    
    
        The very highest if barely known. 
        Then comes that which people know and love. 
        Then that which is feared, 
        Then that which is despised.
    
        Who does not trust enough will not be trusted.
    
        When actions are performed 
        Without unnecessary speech, 
        People say, "We did it!"
    
        Tao Te Ching - Chapter 17

~~~
csorrell
I'm going to venture a guess that you yourself have never raised children.
This is classic armchair parenting advice that sounds good to the philosophic
mind, but falls apart in the real world. If you've never raised kids, you
probably shouldn't offer parenting advice. If you have actually raised kids,
let us know then know how long your kid ate ice cream before they acquired a
taste for broccoli.

Developmentally, a 6 year old is just not ready to be in control of defining
all their own boundaries. They need adults to help them with this. Often times
the reason kids are acting out is because they don't know where the boundary
is or they sense where it is but it feels too unsteady. Clearly defining
boundaries around a child's behavior is going to help them feel more secure.

~~~
meric
No, but I've had to see a therapist since I could move out and not tell my
parents about it, because I've parenting that shares similarities to what OP
described. My suggestion is only based on what the therapist told me I needed,
instead of what I actually experienced.

You're right, I should wait till I have had kids before giving out this
advice.

I take my comments back and endorse the following two comments.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12225434](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12225434)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12223002](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12223002)

~~~
csorrell
Yeah, parenting can be kind of a balancing act. I think there is a valid point
that your posts were getting at which is it's important to give your kids the
space to make their own decisions and learn from their own consequences. The
hard part about parenting though is having a good understanding of where your
child is at developmentally, and then figuring out which decisions are
developmentally appropriate for them to be making for themselves.

------
DanBC
Webster Stratton parenting courses may be useful. These are available by
referral in the UK to some families, but importantly they're seen as so good
that other parents pay to go through them.

There are probably books (I think there's a book called "wonder years" or
similar).

Mostly it seems to be about relentless praise and attention for good
behaviour, where "good" includes "not actively bad". Thos can include sticker
charts and rewards, or "listening beans" (the child has a small pot which they
decorate. You then give them a bean everytime they do somethin good or tehy
listen well. When the pot is full they get a reward. You need to keep praising
them for their positive behaviours - "look how many beans you've got. Great
job! You've worked really hard for this."

You might also want to consider seeking a diagnosis for ADD or similar.

There's also "how to talk so kids will listen" which seems to get metioned in
conversations like this.

(Sorry, on terrible monile at the moment so unable to provide links).

------
ak39
He needs attention.

Reassure him that he still is your "Numero Uno" in every way. Spend some one
on one time with him doing things he likes. Take him movies, parks or zoo etc
alone.

Reestablish that "exclusive" relationship you once had with him. He feels that
your original relationship is under threat after those two Johnny-come-lately
arrived on the scene ... one after another!

Good luck.

~~~
ak39
Oh ... and ... apologise to him for your behaviour of having to tie him up the
bedpost! That's bullying. Exactly what you are facing. Our kids learn by
copying and imitating, not by being told. (My hard lesson learned with 3 boys)

~~~
rymohr
He actually thought it was fun. I tied him up with one of the play silks we
have and a couple loose knots. Only took him a few minutes to work his way out
of them but at least it diverted his attention and helped him calm down for a
bit.

------
rymohr
Thank you everyone that offered advice and encouragement on this. Here's a few
of the top resources that were shared for anyone else in a similar situation:

[http://parenting.stackexchange.com/](http://parenting.stackexchange.com/)

[https://www.amazon.com/Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-
Reward...](https://www.amazon.com/Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Rewards-
Punishments/dp/0743487486/)

[https://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-
Listen/dp/14516638...](https://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-
Listen/dp/1451663889/)

[https://www.amazon.com/Highly-Sensitive-Child-Children-
Overw...](https://www.amazon.com/Highly-Sensitive-Child-Children-
Overwhelms/dp/0767908724)

[https://www.amazon.com/No-Drama-Discipline-Whole-Brain-
Nurtu...](https://www.amazon.com/No-Drama-Discipline-Whole-Brain-Nurture-
Developing/dp/034554806X/)

[https://www.amazon.com/Whole-Brain-Child-Revolutionary-
Strat...](https://www.amazon.com/Whole-Brain-Child-Revolutionary-Strategies-
Developing/dp/0553386697/)

[https://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Child-Understanding-
Frustra...](https://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustrated-
Chronically/dp/0062270451)

[https://www.amazon.com/Simplicity-Parenting-Extraordinary-
Ca...](https://www.amazon.com/Simplicity-Parenting-Extraordinary-Calmer-
Happier/dp/0345507983/)

[https://www.amazon.com/1-2-3-Magic-Effective-Discipline-
Chil...](https://www.amazon.com/1-2-3-Magic-Effective-Discipline-
Children/dp/0963386190)

~~~
rymohr
[https://www.amazon.com/Siblings-Without-Rivalry-Children-
Tog...](https://www.amazon.com/Siblings-Without-Rivalry-Children-
Together/dp/0393342212/)

------
RogtamBar
I'm pretty sure defiant children were not a 'thing' when it was still socially
acceptable to use corporal punishment.

And I don't mean parents being sadists for the sake of it, but using it
judiciously.

The lesson that resorting to violence results in even more violence thrown
back at you and therefore violence is not something to start is a useful one.

Of course, this only works on people or animals with the mental faculties to
understand this, so probably it's useless on children less than 6 years old.

~~~
solipsism
You're "pretty sure" defiant children weren't a thing? Based on what exactly?
You think kids just started being defiant in the last couple decades, and
before that they were little angels?

Throwing around ignorant information without anything to back it up is
typical, but maybe when the implication is that a person should physically
abused his child you should hold off until you have more than your gut
feeling.

~~~
rymohr
I don't think abuse was the reason kids were less defiant before.

In the old days they just had more space and time to explore things on their
own, work out mini conflicts with other kids on their own, and basically learn
the rules of life on their own.

It's really sad how little room there is for kids to do anything truly on
their own these days. Once I've saved enough money I'm going to open an
adventure land here on Oahu to give kids like my son a place to breathe and be
their selves.

~~~
solipsism
[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Good_old_days](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Good_old_days)

Show me some proof that anything is different.

------
dudul
When he gets angry, kick him out of the house to go play soccer, or climb a
tree, or whatever.

If he breaks things in his room, let him, and don't buy new toys/furniture.

------
jenkstom
A new take on this, at least for me, is that a child explodes when they don't
have the skillset to deal with life. Try the book "The Explosive Child" by
Ross W. Greene and see if it helps. If nothing else it's a very different
viewpoint on the problem, and one that lends itself to compassion.

------
Mz
Are you using a punishment model or a discipline model? Some bright kids have
a strong sense of justice and will react really poorly to being punished. The
difference is this:

When my kids did something my husband did not like, he would take away a video
game or lock up their controllers to make them suffer. He did not give them
back until a set time had passed, even if their behavior improved.

In contrast, I took away a game or the controllers if the games per se were
the cause of the problem. If they were fighting over a particular game or if
they were taking a "10 minute" break from doing school work that turned into 2
hours of gaming. I would let them have it back if they resolved their problem
or finished their school work.

My kids were vey loyal to me. They resented their dad and lied to him and so
forth. They were not at all cooperative with a punishment model.

I have a few posts on a private parenting blog I am trying to develop and may
eventually publish publicly. If you are interested in getting an invitation
and reading what is there, send me an email with the subject "Memoirs of a
mom".

------
spdustin
My background: I'm the parent of an 11 year old boy with "highly verbal"
autism spectrum disorder (think Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory) and have
made many connections with parents, children with all forms of special needs,
and caregivers through peer groups, school interventions, etc.. He wasn't
always verbal, that came with therapy.

A peer of his in school, I'll call him John, has a problem. To parents, his
own and his friends', he's what one would politely describe as a terror. No
respect for property or rights, no consideration for feelings, constant
lashing out, and an almost masochistic "bring it, bitch" attitude to anyone
who might suggest disciplinary action or consequences he might find
unfavorable. He invites it.

He was diagnosed with _conduct disorder_. His parents' unpredictable methods
of discipline, their lower income status compared to their peers, and lack of
an "always home when I'm home" parent were significant factors in what
developed into the behavior ultimately diagnosed as _conduct disorder_. At 7
years of age (3-4 years ago) he had already identified other kids who would
support his behavior, even encourage it. There was even a time when substance
abuse was considered, but his parents spied on him pretty hardcore (that
didn't help, either, I might add, and it often won't) and determined that not
to be the case.

I've followed this family for five years, and seen encouraging improvements
since diagnosis last year. First, it qualified him as having a disability, so
ADA kicks in and makes programs available to him in school, such as an IEP
(individual education plan), disciplinary changes, and support
staff/interventions (sometimes called "pull-outs", where he goes to a
different classroom for part of his day). Second, a developmental pediatrician
and pediatric psychiatrist worked with the family on a treatment program. One
that, in his case, included prescription medication, and I mention that
incidentally; I know many folks have problems with their child being given a
prescription that changes their behavior or mental mode, but I don't want it
to go unnoticed that, for many, they can indeed help. In John's case, it gave
him enough of a "mental quiet" that the behavioral therapies at home and
school would have a chance to reach his mind before his rage shut it out.

My strongest advice is: take him to a pediatric psychiatrist. ASAP. Even if
you think he'll fake it when he's being tested. And be direct and honest when
asked about his home environment. If the doctor doesn't have all the data,
they can't help effectively, and it can only hurt your child's future to get
the wrong therapy.

And please, if you or your wife need pharmaceutical help to be calm and clear-
minded with your child, talk to a doctor. Your son's parents need to be calm
and _consistent_ , even though that means more work for you. Calmly remove the
things he damages. Do not be goaded into a physical response, it _does not
work_. If you have to take shifts standing in his doorway to keep him in his
room, it's far more effective than locking him in there.

Mom and dad need to be trusted again. Therapy _will_ help.

Hang in there.

Also: read more about it here:
[http://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Families_and_Youth/Facts_for_Fami...](http://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Families_and_Youth/Facts_for_Families/FFF-
Guide/Conduct-Disorder-033.aspx)

~~~
rymohr
"Bring it, bitch" is definitely his attitude at home. He loves wrestling and
any other form of deep physical contact.

His teachers say he doesn't have any problems at school, which is comforting
yet extremely frustrating at the same time since that means it's very much an
environmental condition. And the environment he doesn't cope well with seems
to be his younger sisters.

------
ddorian43
Put him in a muay-thai/kickboxing/mma gym. He'll get disciplined and less
angry.

