
Adapting to American culture as a Chinese student - berneezy3
https://www.quora.com/Im-Chinese-I-will-go-to-university-in-America-but-Im-afraid-of-racism-Are-there-many-people-in-America-who-dont-like-Asians/answer/Bernard-Wang?share=1
======
KennyCason
"Confucian behaviorism is optimized for a Confucian society, and western
behaviorism is optimized for western society." This is so true. Speaking
Chinese/Japanese on a daily basis and regularly interacting with these two
cultures, I would regularly encounter such differences.

In Japan, if you speak Japanese well, eventually they stop forgiving you as
"oh, he's just a foreigner", and they hold you to similar standards. I.e. You
should be careful how you express your opinion/thoughts to an elder.

Similarly, in China, it took me a bit to adjust to how direct Chinese people
were about certain topics. For example, they will call you "fat" or call out
many personal flaws that we would not do in America. (I know this is counter
to the traditional thinking that Chinese are very withdrawn).

Similarly, with language, Japanese people will rarely call out any
grammar/pronunciation error. Instead, they will ask a question, or give a
gesture that you have to read into and infer from. Chinese people will call
you out very directly, maybe even embarrass you in front of people to the
point where you are too shy to speak. They don't mean it personal, they are
just more open to this sort of direct personal criticism.

The author also mentioned jokes. I can relate to this, learning the language,
let alone the culture is hard enough. Often times, humor is even harder as it
requires a deep understanding of both language and culture.

Like the other said, the list goes on and on, but these things take so many
years to adapt to and overcome. They are huge barriers to cultural
integration.

I have a lot of respect for foreigners who even attempt to integrate with our
culture (and vice versa).

p.s. I admit, I have gained some weight, so the criticism is deserved :)

~~~
titanix2
"Japanese people will rarely call out any grammar/pronunciation error" & "In
Japan, if you speak Japanese well, eventually they stop forgiving you as "oh,
he's just a foreigner", and they hold you to similar standards."

There is also something else I notice: some people will decide they will not
understand you because you look/are foreign no matter how hard you try or even
if you don't make not many mistakes. There is a famous video about that[1] but
this is not limited to Japan, I also saw it in France too with foreigners
trying to speak French.

Also even in a cultural area there can be wide differences. Almost all
Mandarin speakers I interact with (be they Taiwanese, mainlanders or huaqiao)
seemed quite happy to talk their language with me. The Japanese not so much. I
even sometimes hide my Japanese language ability and play it dumb to fit more
in a group. And I plan not to expose a too great ability the day I got it
unless necessary precisely too avoid being judged to harsh by the local
standards.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80)

~~~
dutchieinfrance
Sorry to go off on a tangent, but where in France did you experience this? I'm
a non-native speaker of French and I have never experienced this, not even
when I was in my teens still learning French.

~~~
sporkenfang
Paris is famous for it, though I've been to several parts of France and didn't
have much issue... old people definitely tried to correct my accent but that's
fine by me.

~~~
renox
I'm not exactly sure what is the issue? My step-sister is Irish, I talk to her
in English and she talk to me in French: this way we can practise our
knowledge of foreign language. At work sometimes I did the reverse: a
colleague would speak English and I would answer French, it's nice also: no
cognitive load when you talk, you just have to be a little careful when you
listen.

------
kutkloon7
It strikes me as really odd that mocking Asians this way is acceptable, while
almost any remark about black people can be interpreted as serious racism.

In my opinion, people in the US are, without realizing it, very hypocritical
and very stuck-up when it comes to racism. If your roommates joke that you
will study all day, they are being really rude, but making fun at a cultural
difference which is indeed very noticable (in general, Asian students study
way more than American students). I don't think this is racism. The basic
problem is that people think that being racist is a binary thing that can be
triggered by saying something bad about groups of people (nowadays, it doesn't
even have to be a racial group anymore). It is a very bad thing that such an
undefined thing is taken so seriously (I think the usual definition of
'racism' is 'the idea that people of some racial groups are inferior to people
of other racial groups', which would make the only racist thing to literally
say that people of some racial groups are inferior to people of other racial
groups.

I think similar behaviour against other ethnic groups should be treated the
same way as this behaviour against Asians (as rude, but not racist). I think
it is mainly due to Asian people who deal with mockery very well (as
illustrated in this story). In the long run, I think it will only benefit
Asians. For example when I am around black friends, I will subconsciensly
watch my words and avoid touchy subjects or remarks.

~~~
rayiner
There is nothing odd or hard to understand about it. The rule for mockery or
jokes in the US is generally "you don't punch down." No cop has ever flipped
out and shot an unarmed Asian kid based on stereotypes about how hard asians
study. There is no such thing as "driving while Asian." Asians make more money
on average than even white people, they live longer, etc. They are well
represented in higher academia and high income professions. You'll find Asians
in high income neighborhoods around the country. The country didn't fight a
war over half of it trying to enslave Asians.

One of the things I've always found shocking about America, as an Asian
immigrant myself, is how black people are treated as more foreign, in their
own country, than actual foreigners. There are small pockets of unintegrated
Asians (mostly first generation immigrants) but cities all over the country
are highly segregated along black/white lines. If you really want to
understand what makes American culture tick, live somewhere like Philadelphia
or Baltimore for awhile.

~~~
throwanem
> If you really want to understand what makes American culture tick, live
> somewhere like Philadelphia or Baltimore for awhile.

Baltimore here, almost two decades. If the point you're using my city to make
were as obvious as you make it sound, I would not now need to ask that you
make it explicit.

~~~
moeamaya
Most likely referring to the deeply segregated neighborhood population
percentages.

[http://graphics.wsj.com/baltimore-
demographics/](http://graphics.wsj.com/baltimore-demographics/)
[http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/data/bal-baltimore-
segregat...](http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/data/bal-baltimore-segregation-
map-20150710-htmlstory.html)
[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/28/baltimore-
segregate...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/28/baltimore-segregated-
maps-riots_n_7163248.html)

~~~
throwanem
Yeah, nothing makes a body feel more welcome than being called a gentrifier.
Ask me how I know. The several nearby homicides that occurred within the week
after we closed on the place really helped make us feel at home, too. And I
really miss sitting out on the back stoop for a late-night smoke to the sound
of sporadic pistol fire in the middle distance. There are places in Baltimore
you can go if you want to live around nothing but white people. I didn't leave
East Baltimore for any of them. But I sure did leave East Baltimore.

It's very easy and very comforting to say that maps like the ones you linked
are just a result of white people not wanting to live around black people,
because white people are racist. I get that. Who wouldn't rather believe a
just-so story than acknowledge that not everything is simple and not every
problem has an easy solution? Just don't make the mistake of confusing a just-
so story with reality, or imagining that by doing so you're very likely to be
of benefit to anyone.

------
JumpCrisscross
I grew up multicultural. Austrian mum, Indian dad; Swissman weekending in
Saudi Arabia then moving to Cupertino and studying at ASU. I never belonged in
one place and saw that as a weakness. But heterogeneity has strength. It
forces you to reconcile values from their primitives. This is tough, but I
think it makes you stronger.

I remember everyone who shat on me. Swimming against a culture is different
from being a contrarian. One is challenging the fundamental premises of a
people; the other is innovating within them. The former is biologically
designed to hurt.

Corollary: call your friends when they are fired. I remember everyone who
called me when I quit my first job.The congratulations? Can't remember one.

TL;DR Engage where others aren't engaging. At a minimum, you will reap rare
cognitive primitives.

~~~
berneezy3
OP here. The hardships can definitely be turned into a strength, one that is
hard for mono-cultured people to grasp. I also had a rough childhood, and I
somewhat held a grudge on my parents for it. But now, I feel like I am reaping
those cognitive benefits you so speak of :)

------
aisofteng
The main problem I've had with Chinese students is rampant cheating and lying,
including with help from Chinese professors. I dated a Chinese girl in my PhD
program for a bit and she showed me it all first hand, including a Chinese
professor giving exams to his Chinese students ahead of time. She giggled
about it and didn't see a problem; to her, it was just an easy way to get
ahead.

During undergraduate, I participated in international competitions twice, both
times with a Chinese girl on the team I led and who both times tried to
collude with competing teams in China (who were colluding with each other)
until I yelled at her to either stop or get out of the room and let the rest
of the team finish without her.

I've seen this in two out of two institutions, and have had this confirmed by
friends at other schools.

In the first big boy job I got, we hired a Chinese guy who ended up having
lied on his resume about being able to code. At my last position, I've
admonished the Chinese guy on my team at least once for copy pasting others'
code into PRs without understanding it (which would never even occur to me to
do because it is so obviously wrong), and have once caught flat out lying
about having done something, apparently because he thought I wouldn't check
his work.

All of these cases have been with people who went to high school or undergrad
in China. The ones I've met who grew up here seem to be better about it.

So, personally, I look down on what I've seen of Chinese culture for this
reason. Not people - culture; when I work with someone that grew up in China,
I check for cheating and lies, because of what I've seen of the culture. With
people that grew up outside China, I don't worry as much.

I expect I'll get a negative response to this, and I don't care. I'm
criticizing a culture, not a race, and these are my life experiences with that
culture. It's possible I've just had an extremely unlikely series of
uncounters, but, tautologically, that is extremely unlikely.

~~~
meric
I acknowledge your observations and would like to note the culture between
Chinese students in China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia,
Vietnam are all different and warn you against pinning Chinese culture with
cheating. I imagine the behaviour you are talking about is more unthinkable to
Singaporean Chinese than even to you yourself for example.

~~~
aisofteng
Everyone I mentioned is from mainland China. I don't have reason to believe
it's the same elsewhere. As I said, my comment is about one particular
country's culture, not a race.

------
berneezy3
OP here. This was a pretty personal blog post for me to write, so I hope that
it can help you integrating into your new environment.

If you'd like to talk more about this topic, feel free to send me a chat at
bernardcwang@gmail.com

------
paradite
Related discussions on "Adapting to German culture as a Chinese student":
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769385](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769385)

~~~
berneezy3
Great resource!

------
albertgao
Didn’t read the content from the link, only the comments here, already knew
the topic. As a native Chinese, I should say that this fraud culture is a
common sense in China since the government itself is a fraud, so people living
in the country will get used to it and finally adopt it. Because every time
you wanna strive hard to get something, you will find the fraud is taking the
“shortcuts” and making better progress than you. Eventually, you will be part
of the culture and fraud in a daily basis, which means, when you want to
achieve something, you will always think of this kind of “shortcuts” at the
first place. And, this is the 2nd main reason why so many middle class people
want to immigrant besides the environment crisis. The good part of hunman
being is something nature borning. If you can’t change it, you can change
yourself. Ye, but some people will still be influenced by the old habit.
That’s a shame.

~~~
hgw2016
Agreed, I can testify to this observation.

------
vijucat
As an aside, I find Quora much easier to read with a sans-serif font:
[https://imgur.com/jdu9fw4](https://imgur.com/jdu9fw4)

I use the Stylish Chrome extension with this override for Quora to achieve
this:

    
    
        html,body,h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6,.box_feed,.box_feed div,p,.link.selected,blockquote {
    	    font-family:"Tahoma", Sans-serif;
    	}
    

Stylish:
[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stylish/fjnbnpbmke...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stylish/fjnbnpbmkenffdnngjfgmeleoegfcffe?hl=en)

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nraynaud
My GF works with foreign students at ASU. From what I gather there (but it
might be a particularity of such large university) if you speak mandarin or
cantonese, you will have staff support in your own langage to help with
integration, and thousands of events every year planned to mix with other
people. It should be noted that Americans tend to shun the foreign student
events, but at least you'll mingle with people form other countries, and
English and American cultures will be your common ground.

------
anon1094
The Japanese have the word Gaikokujin (Foreigner) but it doesn't really mean
that. It really only applies to whites or blacks. If you're American of
Oriental ancestry they dont really see you as gaikokujin. Also, you get
treated way differently. I'm a Hispanic American so I mostly got the
gaikokujin treatment but my friends of Chinese ancestry got something
different when we were studying in Japan for 2 years.

------
wcummings
A lot of the stuff in the first response feels like it could be easily taught
(eye contact, deodorant, basic smalltalk), do universities offer some kind of
class or workshop to help acclimate people?

~~~
berneezy3
OP here. That is a business opportunity I have pondered a lot about... Do you
think its a viable idea?

~~~
ht_th
No (and yes). I think that if foreigners are motivated to integrate in the
local society and culture, they will find a way to do fine. If that motivation
isn't there, I doubt any of these cultural courses and workshops will help
much. On the other hand, I do think many if not all people do know that
integrating is hard, so a course/workshop/self-help book/whatever will be
attractive. Therefore, yes, here lies a business opportunity.

------
bane
This really reminds me of this post
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769385](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769385)

------
known
Check [http://www.xenophobes.com/the-
Americans/](http://www.xenophobes.com/the-Americans/)

------
codecamper
Don't adapt. Best part of the US for me is all the other cultures living in
it. Pho soup, Ethiopian pancakes, Burmese cuisine. Please don't adapt.

~~~
Gigablah
Adapting doesn't necessarily mean assimilating -- it can be "code-switching"
in a cultural sense.

~~~
mac01021
To some extent, though, a culture is it's aversions. If your birth culture
demands intolerance of some kind of behavior, you can't adapt without losing
some of that culture.

And to what code do you switch when people of conflicting cultures are present
in the same room with you?

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peteretep

        > as being quiet and 
        > reserved in the public 
    

This guy comes from a China that's aspirational rather than real

~~~
chillacy
The Chinese grad students are definitely a different crowd than the undergrad
students.

------
BrianMickeyD
Chinese are so successful in the US!

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hgw2016
Good analysis, very helpful to both sides. Better understanding will lead to
better outcome.

~~~
berneezy3
Thanks Dad! :P

