
Dutch agencies provide crucial intel about Russia’s interference in US elections - wglb
https://www.volkskrant.nl/media/dutch-agencies-provide-crucial-intel-about-russia-s-interference-in-us-elections~a4561913/amp
======
peoplewindow
Best bit - watching the hackers move in and out via hacked IoT security
cameras. How very James Bond.

The Dutch have a lot more credibility with me than the 'five eyes'
intelligence agencies. This is the first time I've seen claims so specific
from people who aren't already tainted by mass dishonesty or political
incentives. My inclination is to believe them. I personally find this
testimony more convincing than reports from American firms or agencies.

That said, the hack of the DNC in question wasn't "hacking democracy" by any
reasonable definition of the term, in my eyes. The leaked documents and emails
were controversial because of what they showed about Clinton and the DNC
itself. Voters only had more information after that. Claims that this
undermined voters has to rely on the idea that if the Republicans had leaked
emails they'd have been impacted in the same way but Trump basically leaks
anything that pops into his head anyway, so it's hard to imagine. If the
documents had been leaked by a DNC insider to Wikileaks instead, the outcome
would have been the same and nobody would be freaking out.

Arguably both political parties should be required to release their internal
communications to the public anyway. It's not clear what's to be gained by
having that information be secret.

~~~
rendall
Small countries will do as they are told.

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justboxing
> The Cozy Bear hackers are in a space in a university building near the Red
> Square. The group's composition varies, usually about ten people are active.
> The entrance is in a curved hallway. A security camera records who enters
> and who exits the room. The AIVD hackers manage to gain access to that
> camera. Not only can the intelligence service now see what the Russians are
> doing, they can also see who's doing it. Pictures are taken of every
> visitor. In Zoetermeer, these pictures are analyzed and compared to known
> Russian spies. Again, they've acquired information that will later prove to
> be vital.

Wow.

------
stryk
> For years, Painter was responsible for America's cyber policy. He resigned
> last August. 'We'd never expected that the Russians would do this, attacking
> our vital infrastructure and undermining our democracy.'

Horse. Shit. They've been doing it to us, and we've been doing it to everyone
else, for a LONG time.

~~~
EGreg
Yeah, seriously. "We never expected this" while, say, hacking Angela Merkel's
phone and spying on friendly countries in addition to installing backdoors
everywhere...

This list is an exaggeration by someone with an extreme position but every one
of these had US involement: [https://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-
other-peopl...](https://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-
peoples-governments-the-master-list)

It also is missing the ironic involvement of the USA dispatching people to
help Boris Yeltzin come back from losing to winning the Russian elections in
the 90s (it's not even a secret, see the movie Spinning Boris).

Can someone tell me _exactly_ what the word "hacking" means when people say
"Russians hacked the election" over and above what was continuously happening
by many countries the whole time?

~~~
akhilcacharya
The USA is now the lone superpower. The standards are (and should be)
different from 1990s Russia.

~~~
geezerjay
In your eyes, what does this make China?

~~~
FrozenTuna
What's a China? /s. A superpower is defined as "a county that has the capacity
to project dominating power and influence anywhere in the world". I'm assuming
he didn't know that before, but now we can all agree, US is far from the only
country that can project dominating power and influence.

------
belorn
During the elections there were a bunch of different US citizens and companies
that tried to influence the election, such as the released audio tape by
NBCUniversal and the accusation of crimes levied against both candidates. From
the outside looking in, the US election seems to primarily about different
groups trying to do influence the election through scandals and barely
anything about politics.

Even the bright line of "Foreign electoral intervention" seems more like a
guideline than a rule. If >50% of the shareholders of NBCUniversal is owned
outside of the US, does that make the tape an illegal attempt to influence US
politics, while if its 49% then its perfectly legal influence of politics? Can
we apply the same rule to the public listed owner of NBCUniversal, ie Comcast?

~~~
travmatt
>During the elections there were a bunch of different US citizens and
companies that tried to influence the election

If I remember the 16 election correctly I’m pretty sure the controversial part
was when people’s computers were broken into and their private emails were
distributed.

~~~
belorn
After all the NSA leaks, can we really say that the act of hacking is the
controversial part of the story? All the press and news article focus on the
"influence the election" part, with not that much outrage over the actually
means in which the influence happened.

Would we not have the exact same situation and discussion if a insider
administrator leaked the emails?

------
52-6F-62
This story is wild. Recommended read.

------
supergirl
so much pride in this article because the dutch helped big brother US.

but why did AIVD hack the russians in the first place?

------
vectorEQ
it's a nice story, and that's just what it is. nothing is confirmed by anyone
other than a mass media / news outlet, keep that in mind while you read. us
democratic party is more friendly with Netherlands than republican party etc.
Now that's not saying that this never happened, but need to stay objective and
consider the bigger picture.

~~~
ralfn
As a dutch person I want to make one thing very clear.

We mostly distinguish not between Republicans and Democrats (since neither
fits any political identity here), but between people that make everything
about politics and people who don't.

To suggest we fall for the same partisan trap that is currently responsible
for the complete cultural and social fabric unraveling in the US is insulting.

We are a much more cultural homogenous country. Our political extremes are not
debating whether the earth is round, climate change is happening or if our
AIVD has video of Russians hackers doing these actual things.

The fact that Holland shared this information with the US during both
presidents (Obama, Trump) is because we have a bone to pick with Russia after
they shot down a plane with many dutch citizen in them above Ukraine.

The reason this information comes out at this particular moment, i.e. the
timing. Is because Trump bragged to Putin about how the US has such good
friends they could see the Russian hackers (remember this happening? Your
agencies getting angry at Trump for leaking secrets?). That likely destroyed
the operation. So now the timing of the leak of this factually correct
information is all about how to do him (personally) the most harm.

This is not Republicans or Democrats. This is about Trump and Putin both
getting a knee for their disrespect to us. Please be smart enough to not stand
in the way.

------
quantumofmalice
There is no mention of specific electoral interference in the (google
translated) version that I read. There is a play by play hacking attack on the
state department, with an attempt to install malware on state computers, but
nothing is said about the election or how this attack might influence it.

Meanwhile, of course, AIPAC continues to spend millions of dollars per year to
directly influence US elections, drawing no such scrutiny.

~~~
URSpider94
It specifically says that the Dutch watched Fancy Bear hack the DNC.

