
Secret docs reveal: an FBI with vast hidden powers - cylo
https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/secret-docs-reveal-president-trump-has-inherited-an-fbi-with-vast-hidden-powers/?hn
======
alrs
Anyone who thinks Trump is the problem is missing the mark: An imperial
presidency with an unchecked intelligence apparatus is a systemic problem that
inevitably led to this.

If one person can pervert a system, that system sucks.

~~~
burkaman
One person cannot pervert the system. One person, 63 million voters, lots of
members of congress, lots of federal employees, etc. can. Not that the system
doesn't have problems, but the people that make up the system are voluntarily
giving Trump power. It's not possible to design a system that the participants
themselves can't destroy if they decide to.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _It 's not possible to design a system that the participants themselves
> can't destroy if they decide to._

You can raise the bar arbitrarily high, though. Make the destruction of the
system require lots of _coordinated_ effort, and then make coordination
difficult. Coordination is hard for humans as it is, even without a system
that actively subverts it. That's why we have lots of issued labeled together
as "tragedies of the commons".

~~~
Analemma_
> _You can raise the bar arbitrarily high, though_

You can, but then you run head-first into another problem: this "bar-raising"
undermines the legitimacy of the system in the eyes of the people and, not
unjustifiably, makes them feel that it is undemocratic. Worse: this is a
positive feedback loop. The more you raise the bar, the angrier people get and
the more radical they will get in their attempts to tear it down, and so the
more bar-raising is needed.

This is the unfortunate paradox that Matthew Yglesias highlighted in "American
Democracy is Doomed" [0]: people are raging against horse-trading, organized
parties, and 'elites' poo-poohing the "will of the people". This is totally
defensible, but to some extent horse-trading and elite rule are the only
things that make governance possible. I don't know any solution to this
problem.

[0] [http://www.vox.com/2015/3/2/8120063/american-democracy-
doome...](http://www.vox.com/2015/3/2/8120063/american-democracy-doomed)

~~~
eli_gottlieb
>This is the unfortunate paradox that Matthew Yglesias highlighted in
"American Democracy is Doomed" [0]: people are raging against horse-trading,
organized parties, and 'elites' poo-poohing the "will of the people". This is
totally defensible, but to some extent horse-trading and elite rule are the
only things that make governance possible. I don't know any solution to this
problem.

Well, I think a parliamentary system with proportional representation would
help a lot. In those systems, the parties/lists might trade horses, but you
know that your vote bought some measure of strength for a platform you
actually believe in. Oh, and real civil-service protections to keep government
staff from being fired for political reasons, including for security and
military officials.

~~~
Analemma_
I used to think that, but based on recent events I'm not so sure: European
Parliamentary governments seem to be having the same populist uprisings based
on perceived illegitimacy and disconnect from of government that we are. All
things being equal, I'd rather the US had a Parliamentary system, but I don't
think it's a silver bullet.

------
josephpmay
This article is part of a massive 17-part drop about the FBI from The
Intercept today. Wow. [https://theintercept.com/series/the-fbis-secret-
rules/](https://theintercept.com/series/the-fbis-secret-rules/)

~~~
masonic
Note that Intercept claims to have been sitting on this content since "before
the election" yet holds it for a massive flood in the first week of the _new_
Administration.

~~~
mmcwilliams
Considering their treatment of the Obama administration, do you think that
they would not have released these stories if the election had gone the other
way?

~~~
anonbanker
Do you honestly think that, had Trump been the president during Snowden's NSA
revelations, The Intercept would have continued to sit on 90% of the documents
that still haven't been released?

~~~
mmcwilliams
That completely dodges my question, but yeah I do. I think the OP makes the
mistake of assuming that once a journalist receives a source of information
then their job is done, but good reporting takes a lot of hours of
corroborating information with multiple sources and doing background.

The Intercept is definitely a leftist publication but to say that they are
partisan Democrat just isn't true. They were one of the few publications that
consistently reported on the outrageous drone bombing campaigns during the
Obama administration. Glenn Greenwald was even accused of being a Trump
supporter by people in the Hillary camp for about as long as they were running
against each other.

------
caf
_...the FBI’s so-called Type 5 assessments — through which federal agents have
authority to investigate people in the United States who are not suspected of
having committed crimes, but who, in a federal agent’s opinion, could be
recruited as informants._

In light of this, is anyone who has confidently declared "my personal threat
model doesn't include nation-states" reconsidering?

~~~
trendia
Sometimes excluding nation states from your threat model gives you a blissful
ignorance.

After all, proper computer security protocol isn't going to protect you from
being disappeared.

~~~
caf
Let's get real, though - innocent people aren't being disappeared because they
don't want to be CIs.

On the other hand, _" it'd be a shame if your wife saw these messages to your
old girlfriend"_ doesn't seem that much of a stretch.

~~~
theWatcher37
>innocent people aren't being disappeared because they don't want to be CIs.

Not to get too tinfoil, but do we really know this?

At any given moment 90k in the US alone are missing, and 60% of those are
adults (source: google)

~~~
anonbanker
Seeing as it has been established that Tinfoil Hats would acutally amplify
brainwaves, could/should the "Tinfoil Hat" concept be modified to connote a
person who is overly-paranoid, and adopts lifestyle choices that
unintentionally amplify their perceived risk?

------
coldcode
None of this should be surprising after 9-11 and the Patriot Act.

~~~
beamatronic
It saddens me that we are still _reacting_ to 9/11

~~~
CalChris
Osama bin Laden predicted that America would overreact.

[https://www.odni.gov/files/documents/ubl/english/Letter%20to...](https://www.odni.gov/files/documents/ubl/english/Letter%20to%20the%20American%20people.pdf)

~~~
szupie
It looks like you are supplying the linked document as a reference to support
the statement that “Osama bin Laden predicted that America would overreact.”
However, I am having trouble figuring out the connection between the linked
document and the statement.

The document is from some time after 2009, as it makes references to Obama
delaying the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan. I failed to find any
passage where he references previous statements he made in the past. From
these observations, I am guessing that the prediction you are talking about is
of some overreaction that takes place some time after 2009.

However, I am failing to find this prediction of overreaction you are
referring to in the document. I’m assuming that’s a failure on my part to read
between the lines in bin Laden’s writing, and I’m hoping you could clarify
that.

~~~
CalChris
Yes, you are right about the link which is more about OBL's thinking at that
point. I had read something else back in 2003-5 whenever (NYTimes?) that was a
prediction that America would overreact. And I can't find it. And searching
through OBL's writings isn't easy.

~~~
andy318
This article does not reference a source for the quote but author writes this
about Osama - "He repeatedly asserted that the only way to drive the U.S. from
the Muslim world and defeat its satraps was by drawing Americans into a series
of small but expensive wars that would ultimately bankrupt them. “Bleeding the
U.S.,” in his words. The United States, first under George W. Bush and then
Barack Obama, rushed right into bin Laden’s trap."
[http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/osamas-
ghost...](http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/osamas-ghost/)

------
Esau
Look at what can be accomplished with some fear-mongering and millions of
apathetic citizens. The intelligence community must be so proud of themselves.

------
hindsightbias
I wonder how many people would have to know if a secret Executive Order
required a few XKEYSCORE terminals be installed in the West Wing.

If only Nixon had had that tech.

~~~
anonbanker
Secrecy is incompatible with a republic.

------
EekSnakePond
At the time of this comment: (6 hours after OP)

14 mentions of Trump. 8 mentions of Bush. 2 mentions of Reagan.

vs.

10 wistful mentions of Hillary Clinton being the better choice. 4 mentions of
Obama. 1 mention of Bill Clinton expanding ECHELON.

Obama had 8 years building and using it this entire apparatus, after 8 years
of Bush putting it into place after 9/11\. Trump had been taking it for a test
drive over the past 2 weeks.

Can we please rename HN to " _Silicon Valley and Democrats Only_ " so lurkers
know what they are getting into?

~~~
Strom
I'm not from Silicon Valley and don't identify as a democrat. I've never even
visited the Americas. Throughout my years on HN I've seen that there are
plenty others like me on HN. To say HN is for _" Silicon Valley and Democrats
Only"_ is very naive.

~~~
tinalumfoil
I'm also not located in silicon and not really a Democrat, but I agree with
the parent. HN readers tend to be irrationally biased towards members of
certain political parties, and I think it's healthy and constructive to point
this out.

------
pmarreck
At the risk of invoking the genetic fallacy, beware of far-left and far-right
sources of information: [http://www.allsides.com/news-
source/intercept](http://www.allsides.com/news-source/intercept)

~~~
pmarreck
Why am I getting downvoted? What is the rationale?

~~~
fulafel
Your comment is non-sensical because The Intercept is pretty well known to HN
readers and it's common sense that it's not a far-right or far-left media.

Your link doesn't help either: it doesn't support your implied claim that TI
is far-left or far-right.

~~~
anonbanker
Would you disagree that HN generally skews "left" on the political scale?
Wouldn't such a skew (left or right) affect HN readers' "common sense"?

While I can't comment on your intent, your reply appears to fit the
description of a Bandwagon Fallacy:

 _The Bandwagon Fallacy (also, Argument from Common Sense, Argumentum ad
Populum): The fallacy of arguing that because "everyone" (or someone in power
who has widespread backing) supposedly thinks or does something, it must be
true and right. E.g., "Whether there actually is large scale voter fraud in
America or not, many people now believe there is and that makes it so."
Sometimes also includes Lying with Statistics, e.g. “Over 75% of Americans
believe that crooked Hodiak is a thief, a liar and a pervert. There may not be
any evidence, but for anyone with half a brain that conclusively proves the
case!”_

~~~
pmarreck
Yeah it is the bandwagon fallacy.

But apparently, critical thinking skill is becoming rarefied even at HN.

~~~
anonbanker
upvoted for truth.

