

Jonathan Franzen: what's wrong with the modern world - auggierose
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/sep/13/jonathan-franzen-wrong-modern-world

======
cageface
The older I get the less inclined I am to find fault with the world around me
and the more inclined I am to try to make the best of whatever hand I'm dealt.

It's easy to play the critic and sit back and declare that life does not
measure up to your expectations. But personally I find building new things,
however imperfect they may be, far more satisfying.

~~~
jrs99
If you read Franzen's novels, The Corrections first, then Freedom, you really
get a good sense of how he changed. They are decent reads.

~~~
tgrass
Also, for truly deep insight into his literary thoughts and themes, read his
essays in Farther Away: [http://www.amazon.com/Farther-Away-Essays-Jonathan-
Franzen/d...](http://www.amazon.com/Farther-Away-Essays-Jonathan-
Franzen/dp/1250033292)

------
orangeduck
This is a great article. I relate to Jonathan Franzen in his mission to get
others to seek out the one-to-one relationship he had with Kraus. I believe
this relationship is really what the whole piece is about.

In many of his points he is true. The conventional means of seeking this same
fulfillment are sinking away.

But he overestimates how much people are nullified by technology. And he is
blind to the other possible means of access to these feelings technology can
provide. Technophobes can't see behind the veil of pixels. They believe that
all experiences on a computer are fake, and that the internet is a superficial
control panel onto a (boring) machine of cogs and wires. A computer is no more
than a stone to throw in a river.

The problem is these people rarely look. And when they do their self
fulfilling prophesy dirties their own great experiences (they believe the
computer in its wisdom has tricked their emotions). Anyone who has spend years
on a forum, or late nights on IRC talking to people they've known for decades,
knows these experiences are real.

To engage with technology is the only way to re-find these experiences in the
modern world. It isn't really anything to do with technology. It embodies all
aspects of life. To anyone growing with hate about the world I give the same
advice _engage_ and you will find what you're looking for.

~~~
sanoli
Mostly I agree with you. I guess I also want to agree, _but_ , here's what
happens with me: no matter how much I try, the interactions I have with people
through email and IM are never, never, as interesting and as deep as the
conversations I have with the remaining three people that I still correspond
with letters (yes, I mean snailmail, paper letters). It's unfortunate, I
guess, and I wish it wasn't so, but as one writer said once, a long time ago
when he didn't even know about email, "the letter has always been the most
sophisticated means of conversation".

~~~
bendersalt
I have found it mostly has to do with the care letters are written with. An
e-mail is like talking in real life, in many cases someone responds to it
right away and if there is any misunderstanding you can correct it right there
with another e-mail. In many cases a letter is much more formal, you have to
take a little bit of care to make sure the message is getting across right the
first time.

~~~
sanoli
Plus, since letters take quite some time to arrive at their destination, and
double that for you to receive an answer, they tend to be much longer (I think
that is why they tend to be; not 100% sure). I've never received an email that
was longer than three pages. Whereas with letters, I've both sent and received
some very, very long letters, and almost all were a joy to read and to write.

------
increment_i
As I leave my 20's behind and enter my 30's, anytime I begin to pearl clutch
about things that don't seem quite right to me, I always remember this
Simpsons clip:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yHBz3K0yKg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yHBz3K0yKg)

That's when I remember the world doesn't want to be saved by what I think is
right and appropriate.

------
bsirkia
An appropriate response:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/15/opinion/sunday/the-code-
of...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/15/opinion/sunday/the-code-of-life.html)

~~~
auggierose
This was actually how I found the Franzen article.

But ... I don't think the response is nearly as formidable as the challenge.
The writer of the NY Times article has that superficial knowledge of a
programmer newbie (for example, comparing Facebook / Google with an operating
system is not as wrong as it might seem), but not the depth of thought that
Franzen has.

~~~
jrs99
i don't think there's much depth of thought at all. He doesn't understand that
future reviews will have better algorithms filtering them. He doesn't mention
that quality during the print era was terrible also. That since the beginning
of printing, trash was being written, and things were being written purely for
profit. And that in the internet age, an awesome writer can find an audience
of 50. The main thing is that he doesn't really understand technology,
probably because he doesn't use it.

It is, however, more poetic and more emotionally resonant than the response.

~~~
auggierose
He actually understands all of those things. He mentions in particular that
"since the beginning of printing, trash was being written, and things were
being written purely for profit".

~~~
jrs99
I really doubt that he understands that algorithms will be formed that filter
those reviews out on amazon. I really do believe he thinks that quality
control being supposedly better in print was actually good for the best
writers.

~~~
onebaddude
> _I really do believe he thinks that quality control being supposedly better
> in print was actually good for the best writers._

And this is exactly why I, apparently like Mr. Franzen, appreciate the
"quality control" of newspapers like, for example, the Guardian in this case.

Otherwise, people tend to believe that dismissing a thoughtful 5,000+ word
essay with, "I really doubt he understands the Amazon algorithms" passes for
reasonable criticism.

~~~
jrs99
the quality control IS better in print, and I appreciate it. But the quality
control is NOT best for the best writers.

~~~
jrs99
as a percentage of course. There are web publications with greater quality
control than certain print publications of course. but probably not overall as
a percentage.

------
orionblastar
What is wrong with the world?

He makes some good points in that we tend to talk about things more often than
do them. Social networking is all about talking or rather communication. The
noise to signal ratio is too high on social networks, and it is dominated by
web robots who spam links, and in-you-face adverting that makes the social
network free for the users but subjects them to all kinds of advertising even
selling their personal data to scammers and spammers and large
megacorporations. Sure the social network is free as in beer, but not free as
in speech. You don't have any privacy the social network records everything
even the stuff you typed but didn't send, and had to stop yourself before you
sent it because it would have been embarrassing. In fact one can reasonable
say the social networks take away your privacy by forcing you to use your real
name and show everything you do, it takes away your rights, your freedoms,
your liberties, and of course also treats you as a product instead of a human
being, that they can market advertising towards in order to become
billionaires.

Apple vs. Microsoft, we once had that with Atari vs. Commodore, we once had
that with DEC vs. Wang, we once had that with IBM vs. Amdal, we once had that
with Fairchild/Intel vs. TI. Competition is good, because it forces innovation
to stay ahead of your competition. But after the DMCA was passed, it gives too
much control and power to megacorproations and robs the consumer of ownership
rights, liberties, freedoms, and then forces Malware DRM on them in the name
of "profits at any cost" and then the megacorproations contribute to both
political parties in the USA to make sure that law is never repealed. Oh did I
mention corporate corruption makes political corruption?

Religion itself has been hijacked by the megacorproations. For example
Christianity was always about love, compassion, and empathy. Love everyone,
love your enemies. Now it is about hate, money, power, fame, bragging rights.
It is all about greed, envy, lust, sloth, wraith/anger, gluttony, and worse of
all pride. Proud to be an American? Proud to be rich and privileged? Christ
himself would not approve of it. Pride is one of the most dangerous of the
seven deadly sins. No wonder people are leaving religion and becoming
atheists, religious people aren't being true to their religious teachings and
taking up corporate teachings instead. Corporation corruption makes religious
corruption, as well as political corruption, as well as social corruption, as
well as cultural corruption as well as environmental corruption as well as
economic corruption, and then even science corruption and technological
corruption that leads to poor quality products that last less than three years
and are made with the cheapest labor in the worst of all conditions in a third
world nation using child labor and slavery. But don't worry, once they replace
human beings with robots, all of those factory workers will be out of jobs.
Unemployed like the rest of us.

Climate change, global warming, global cooling. I don't know the whole thing
because of the margin of error in the data collected and that climategate
email thing. All I know is corporate corruption has used it as a bat to beat
over the head of poor people by jacking around the price of fossil fuels and
then trying to force carbon credits (Created by a system from Enron?) to pay
for our 'sins' (Anyone remember this guy named Martin Luther?) so we can use
carbon based fuels and still not contribute to global warming. It turns out
our sun has something to do with it and it is not a 'human factor'
[http://m.space.com/23934-weak-solar-cycle-space-
weather.html](http://m.space.com/23934-weak-solar-cycle-space-weather.html)
But hey, all of this snow is great, and maybe the wooly mammoths will come
back as we enter an 'ice age' of global warming aka global cooling bka climate
change? BTW more money is spent on studying climate change than actually
finding alternatives to fossil fuels and greener technology and greener
programming to save electricity? What's up with that? We cut NASA's space
program for the war on terror and then cut it some more to study climate
change. Now our space program is a joke as China puts a robot on the Moon, and
our space shuttle is recycled 1980's tech and mothballed.

The number of mentally ill people keeps on rising. There is no empathy and
compassion for the mentally ill anymore. Since a mental illness is 'invisible'
most people think the mentally ill are faking it and are really 'pretentious
douchebags' who should just 'snap out of it' and get back to work. All public
programs to treat the mentally ill got cut after 9/11 in the USA in order to
fund NSA spying and security with the TSA and other agencies. Leaving the
mentally ill with little or no support options. Dropping out of college
because that college could no support them due to lack of funding by the
government. So one neuroscience student the system failed, shot up a Batman
movie in Colorado as "The Joker" who was mentally ill. Another failed college
student shot up a school in Newtown and was mentally ill. The Navy Base
Shooter was also mentally ill talking about ELF radiation controlling him. In
all three cases they begged for help, talked about killing people, but got no
help and no support. They were just swept under the rug and ignored, until
they got really violent and off their meds and got some guns and did some
shootings. But the mentally ill are vilified now. The news media only focuses
on the 10% of the mentally ill that do violent crimes, won't tell you that 90%
are non-violent and in need of help, support, empathy, and compassion.
[http://blastar.in/crawfraud/?p=143](http://blastar.in/crawfraud/?p=143)

Still it is a human problem of hating those who are different than you in some
way. This is a trait that evolution made to keep tribes of humans together for
survival. But we don't need it anymore, because the only race that matters now
is the human race. All of our lives are at stake now.

~~~
secstate
It's ironic to me that your second to last paragraph is about the mentally ill
not getting the help they need. That cries for help fall on deaf ears. Then
you conclude with the idea that hate was the only thing that kept tribes of
humans together and that now we're a big happy world.

I'd argue that compassion and tolerance are best practiced in those small
groups as well, as you are forced to recognize the person behind the
stereotypes (Note: I live in a town of 800 people and can tell you the names
of many people who struggle with mental illness, some of whom I've been
blessed enough to be able to help at times).

So I'd actually argue the opposite of your point. Sociologically it's been
demonstrated that humans tend (not always) to operate best and honestly in a
certain size group. DuPont set up their labs based on this number, though I
can't remember it off the top of my head. No human is capable of honestly
considering the needs of the entire human race. That's just silly.

~~~
orionblastar
I never claimed we were a big happy world, to the contrary. We have a lot of
problems we need to address, hence my post about world issues.

In society people tell others comfortable lies to make them feel better. To
hide the truth from them. Often people resort to humor as in sarcasm, or
satire when they cannot stand another person or group. Sometimes it leads to
stereotypes and pre-judgement, sometimes people believe those sorts of things
as truths even if they are lies and fiction, perhaps even delusion.

True not one person can run the entire world, Sony and others found out they
cannot even run multiple parts of their global operation and had to make each
national HQ independent to work, otherwise they had failure. I think it is
called The Peter Principle if I am not mistake. If there is a NWO or
Illuminati, they cannot control the entire world, it would be impossible. What
many contribute as conspiracy is really just gross incompetence.

As a mentally ill person, when I first became mentally ill in 2001, I suffered
and was in pain a lot because I was rejected by my peers, by management, by my
family, and even my friends left me. I had an 'invisible illness' they could
not see, but I was as disabled as a blind person, a deaf person, or a person
with no legs. Yet there was nothing but hate for me, mocking, persecution,
insults, bullying, and being told by some that I should "Just commit suicide
to free up world resources for everyone else" because of how useless I was,
and no longer considered a human being.

I am told that I am lucky to have survived it all. Most mentally ill people in
my situation do kill themselves. You see it in these startup groups, but
nobody wants to talk about the stress and pressure in them that causes mental
illnesses and how people have to hide their mental illnesses in order to keep
working.

------
cafard
Tl;dr, have to get to work. But

a. For a cooler look at Karl Kraus, check out the essay on him in Clive
James's _Cultural Amnesia_. b. The PC/Mac/whatever bit is tedious and silly.
c. Comparing the US to the Austro-Hungarian empire is also silly. One might
stipulate that we comprise wildly different cultures also; but that would
require that one skip the "Roman Catholic empire" bit and notice that the
empire had quantities of Protestants, Orthodox, Jews, and Muslims.

------
hownottowrite
[http://the-toast.net/2013/09/16/rage-jonathan-franzen/](http://the-
toast.net/2013/09/16/rage-jonathan-franzen/)

~~~
onebaddude
Was that supposed to be funny or insightful in some way? It seems to me it's
just a wannabe-elitist mocking elitism, interspersed with some horrible jokes.

"Television is also bad; perhaps not as bad as Twitter, but they both start
with T, which rhymes with P and which stands for Pool."

Captured his arguments perfectly! Hilarious! </s>

~~~
timje1
I thought it was quite a funny antidote to all of the serious anger-based
talk..

------
11thEarlOfMar
The trick is that Kraus describes a clearly delineated set of social groups:
Germans, Austrians, Italians and French. Perhaps he's saying that if 'the form
is the function', ultimately, the group is susceptible to natural forces and
the ambitions other groups that were founded on a sound functional basis.
Moreover, modern groups do not have the barriers of geography to separate
like-mindedness.

------
alexeisadeski3
I'm no Franzen fan, but I think the title's a bit harsh.

