
The TV antenna is making a comeback - rbc
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/new-generation-discovers-good-old-tv-antenna
======
legitster
I'm 24 and I have never had cable in my life. Frankly, I'm surprised it's not
more common. You get a LOT of TV for free. I grew up watching PBS and Simpsons
and etc.

I remember at superbowl some of my friends were amazed that I was able to
watch the football game without cable. I was floored. They didn't even know
that channels came in over the air. I showed them the antenna, where it
installs in the TV, how cheap they are. I got HD video without having to pay
anything.

These weren't dumb people either. They worked for tech companies. They
legitimately did not know it was an option.

A lot of people cut their cables after that party.

~~~
pjc50
How on earth does this situation come about? Hypereffective advertising by the
cable companies?

~~~
r00fus
Related: Replacing incandescent light bulbs with LEDs - nowadays LEDs have
about 95-99% of the warmness profile of an incandescent and are relatively
cheap (can result in <1y ROI), but people still keep buying incandescents.

Another related: NiMH slow-discharge batteries (Eneloop) are very good, last
as long in a remote control, and have more consistent charge levels than an
alkaline. Yet people (even enviro-conscious relatives) keep buying alkalines.
Why?

~~~
pfranz
I haven't had much experience with LED bulbs, the early ones I saw weren't
omnidirectional, cost a bunch, and needed good ventilation for a reasonable
lifespan. I earnestly tried CF for awhile. Maybe due to early technology or
cheap bulbs I had to replace them way more than incandescent (I suspected
inconsistent power affected lifespan). In addition to that, the extra price
and bad color temperatures or flickering bothering me made be go back to
grabbing incandescent bulbs when I've had to replace lights. I do plan on
doing research and switching to LEDs--I've noticed some LEDs have flickering
that annoy me I hope I find something I like after some research.

A year or so ago I bought a recharge pack (Microsoft branded) for my 360
controllers. After only a few charges they wouldn't hold a charge anymore so I
went back to alkalines. Either it was a poor quality battery, poor charger, or
poor charging habits.

Taking time to research and paying more for a quality solution can be too much
for most people. Prematurely releasing technology or poor implementations can
also turn people off.

------
ilamont
I took a look at a relative’s cable bill last year. He lives in a town with
three competing cable/ISP services. Here is how the monthly costs broke down:

 _Expanded basic service: $60

High definition converter box: $10

Digital converter rental: $3

HBO Cinemax package: $18

Premiere Total Pack: $16

Showtime/TMC: $5

Starz: $5

Franchise fee: $7

Broadcast TV surcharge: $4

Sports programming surcharge: $2

Total monthly cost: $130

Annual cost: $130 × 12 months = $1,560_

That doesn’t include Internet access, which adds another $60 or $70 per month,
plus the land line. So they’re paying close to $250/month. Sadly, that’s
typical for a lot of people around here, who often get suckered in by $99
“triple play” deals and don’t read the fine print about extra fees, premium
packages, or escalating rates after years 1 and 2.

It’s a total racket.

One thing to add about TFA: DTV reception even over a good antenna within 10
miles of the broadcast towers can be spotty. We live near Boston, and every
time a car drives by our house the image freezes even for the big VHF
channels.

~~~
dexterdog
I don't know about that last point. I live about 45 miles from Philly and 55
miles from NYC. I get pretty much all of the stations from both with minimal
drop and I have a $35 antenna inside in my attic.

~~~
andyhnj
I'm curious about the antenna you're using. I'm also approximately equidistant
from NYC and Philly, but I tried a digital antenna once, and could only pick
up one NJ station, and none of the NYC or Philly ones. I'd love to find an
antenna that works!

~~~
ars
> I'd love to find an antenna that works!

Try the "coat hanger antenna" (google it). It's directional enough to be
effective. There are some tweaks you can make to it to adjust how directional
it is. (Adding more elements, or doubling it mainly.)

It's very cheap so you can experiment.

You'll need one of those impedance converter thingies to convert from twin
lead to coax.

------
techbullets
With Chromecast (or something similar to connect your computer to TV), and a
decent Antenna, you do not really need anything else. Plus, most of the things
that we watch are on-demand anyway - we don't have patience to sit through
commercials for 1 hour to watch 20 minutes of a Sci-Fi episode.

~~~
twblalock
> With Chromecast (or something similar to connect your computer to TV), and a
> decent Antenna, you do not really need anything else.

Unless you want to watch a lot of sports.

~~~
carsonreinke
Pretty much all of the MLB stuff (except for playoffs) is cable only. NFL will
at least of the either Monday or Thursday game along with your local on
Sunday.

~~~
heuermh
Even the playoffs for MLB are cable only.

[http://m.mlb.com/postseason-schedule](http://m.mlb.com/postseason-schedule)

OTA FOX only gets one or two playoffs games and the World Series.

In previous years it was possible to watch most of the games online via "live
alternative video feeds (excluding the broadcast feed)", and now even that is
not allowed.

Check out all the disclaimers and fine print here

[http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/subscriptions/index.jsp?&affiliateId=...](http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/subscriptions/index.jsp?&affiliateId=MLBTVREDIRECT)

~~~
jessaustin
I suspect that some league (NHL perhaps?) will specifically exclude webcasting
from its next huge TV contract. Or it will extract a higher price _not_ to be
the first to do so. It will be the beginning of the end for regional sports
channels, and eventually for ESPN.

------
pidg
This kind of TV is the 'default' here in the UK (Freeview) - we get about
50-60 digital channels and 10 HD channels.

I suspect cable TV is actually on the rise here, but can't find stats to back
that up.

~~~
ForHackernews
The Brits really have us beat here. For Americans, take a look at this list:
[http://www.ukfree.tv/channels/all](http://www.ukfree.tv/channels/all)

On the other hand, they have to pay an annual government tax just for owning a
TV.

~~~
johnwards
The TV Licence funds the BBC content, which is Free to Air TV, online stuff,
Radio etc. It has no ads and aims to have as much diverse stuff as possible.

The BBC is awesome, I happily pay my tv tax :)

~~~
scholia
I'm also happy to pay, and feel sorry for Americans who have to put up with
inferior public TV services.

Not only is the BBC awesome, the licence fee is much lower than cable or
satellite charges, and BBC programmes are not stuffed with mind-numbing
adverts.

------
z2
Two years back I decided to make my own antenna. I had no idea what a folded
dipole was, but found a website that instructed me to use a metal clothes
hanger cut to the proper length for HD US signals, and a block of wood. I had
neither so I taped some leftover enamel wire to a piece of cardboard. I still
use this antenna today, and get about 50 channels, living 30 miles away from
the nearest broadcast antenna.

Point is, these broadcasts are incredibly easy to access, and it doesn't seem
like the voodoo designs of $200 dollar antennas are actually needed by most
people. It's somewhat surprising TV manufacturers don't simply add simple
antennas as an accessory the same way my FM radio tuner came with one.

~~~
JTon
Awesome. Care to share the resources you used for this project?

~~~
z2
It may have been this page, though I'm pretty sure the resource I used told me
what length to cut it.
[http://www.diytvantennas.com/dipole.php](http://www.diytvantennas.com/dipole.php)

Still, we can figure this out: Wikipedia says North American UHF frequencies
are on average 680MHz across all channels, which corresponds to a wavelength
of about 44cm. A folded dipole needs to have a length half of that, so we want
a 22cm antenna when folded, plus about a 1cm gap.

------
ThinkingGuy
I just recently installed an antenna in our attic after we cancelled our cable
TV, and I've been very pleased with the results. Here in the Atlanta area,
we're getting almost 60 TV channels, plus about 10 audio-only simulcase of
several local radio stations. There's even a channel that displays a program
guide, like the ones you find on the cable or satellite services.

People's lack of awareness of over-the-air television has been surprising to
me. We had houseguests last week, a retired couple in their 60's. This is in
the age range that I would expect to be familiar with broadcast TV, having
grown up with it as the predominant, "default" option. And yet, I was still
asked, "so you don't get CNN?"

[Edit: text formatting]

~~~
ghaff
I suspect that, for many people, getting cable (or satellite) has just become
sort of the default. Of course, many do watch sports which often (though not
always) run on non-network channels.

Also, not everyone is able to get TV OTA or is in a position to install an
attic/rooftop antenna. I personally can't get anything OTA. I regularly toy
with cutting back to a very basic bundle but haven't seriously pursued yet.

~~~
Lx1oG-AWb6h_ZG0
That's a bit misleading. Most NFL games are only available on network
channels, not ESPN/Fox Sports/Univision. I'd hardly call that minor.

~~~
ghaff
Well, that's just one sport. In New England at least (and I assume this
situation exists in other places as well), a lot of the local sports are
primarily just on cable--NESN in the case of New England.

I don't watch much in the way of sports in any case, but a lot of people buy
cable and satellite sports packages.

I actually agree with the basic point up-thread though. I do think a lot of
people probably pay for their monthly cable package without a whole lot of
thought about how much value they're getting and what alternatives there might
be.

------
crazcarl
You don't even need a TV to take advantage of this if you have a computer.

You can buy a tv tuner card that will connect to your laptop and allow you to
plug in an antenna to watch TV.

Something like this: [http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-1191-WinTV-
HVR-955Q-Tuner-No...](http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-1191-WinTV-
HVR-955Q-Tuner-Notebook/dp/B001DEYVXO/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8)

~~~
pjc50
I do this with Windows 7's included Media Center as a PVR. I was surprised
when checking out popular "media center" software that most of it seems to
concentrate on playback of videos and not support being a PVR.

~~~
kchoudhu
Don't upgrade to 10. They killed WMC...

------
shanecleveland
Get internet service from cable provider with basic cable plus HBO for less
than the advertised price of the internet service alone. Have to call back
every year to get the promotional price back, which sucks. But we almost never
watch the cable channels. Local channels in HD with a couple low-end antennas
in the attic. And tend to watch HBO GO on a Roku, where we also have Netflix,
Prime, etc.

Doing Sling during football season for ESPN.

As others have said, would like to have a better antenna setup with DVR that
does not require subscription. Need a community-driven site where people can
put in the type of antenna they have and what channels they get for more
precise location-specific antenna recommendations.

~~~
narrowrail
>would like to have a better antenna setup with DVR that does not require
subscription

I have been looking at a Channel Master[0] for this exact purpose; the cost is
$250+HDD. It has an ethernet port which allows one to get an EPG [1] from
Rovi, but it isn't required. If I pull the trigger maybe I'll do a write up
and submit it.

[0][http://www.channelmaster.com/Antenna_DVR_s/336.htm](http://www.channelmaster.com/Antenna_DVR_s/336.htm)

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_program_guide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_program_guide)

~~~
Symbiote
Isn't an EPG part of the US-American standard? It has been part of the DVB
(rest of the world…) standard since the beginning, so there's generally a
button on a TV remote to display it.

(The DVB MPEG transport stream contains mostly video packets, but is
interspersed with the EPG — in bits — and other media. Almost all TVs will
cache the EPG, though earlier systems required the user to wait until the
requested information was rebroadcast.)

~~~
JonathonW
EPGs are part of the standard and broadcasters are required to transmit them,
but there's no quality control on them beyond what the broadcaster does
themselves; some broadcasters do a great job and some... don't.

That's where paid services like SchedulesDirect [1] come in; they pull data
from the same source that Tivo and the cable/satellite companies are using,
which (usually) gives you accurate scheduling.

[1] [http://www.schedulesdirect.org/](http://www.schedulesdirect.org/)

------
edward
In 2010 when I lived in the San Francisco I ordered my broadband from Comcast,
but I didn't pay for the TV package.

I added a splitter to the Comcast coax cable, then plugged one wire into the
cable modem and the other into the back of my TV. Network TV channels for no
extra cost.

~~~
greg5green
This was technically stealing.

~~~
jerf
There's precedent for things that get delivered to you being yours to use,
even if you didn't order or pay for them. While I am aware that it is
absolutely not the same thing, there is a law that anything sent unsolicited
to you in postal mail is yours to keep, no questions asked. This is to prevent
a type of now-dead fraud that involved doing that, then billing people for it.

It's really the responsibility of the cable provider to correctly filter
services, if they want to charge for them. And you'll probably find that if
you call up and try to "complain" about this, that they'll do nothing and tell
you to do as you like, as it isn't even worth their time to bother about...
putting a rather low bound on the degree of harm you're "inflicting" on them
even in the worst case.

~~~
kbenson
I understand your point, but I think there's a difference between the cable
company "correctly filtering service" and a person getting additional hardware
to bypass the cable modem demarcation. It does get muddied by them allowing
customer cable modems, which means there's not a clear a demarcation point
anymore.

~~~
kileywm
There may be a terms of use clause forbidding splitting like this but it
almost certainly isn't a demarcation issue, so there is no real 'bypass' that
I am aware of.

The demarcation is generally clearly marked (plastic box often called a
'network interface device') and is almost never located at the modem itself.

Typically, the legal demarcation is on the exterior of houses. For a multiple
dwelling unit (apartment complex) or commercial building, the demarcation is
usually inside. ISPs try to choose a demarcation that is accessible from the
outside, so as to not require being allowed into the building to test signal
leading to the premise. This cuts down on cancelled repairs due to 'no
access'. My point in all this is that for most coax and twisted pair services,
the indoor wiring is usually the property owners and not the ISP's, especially
at the point where it connects to the modem. For someone to add a splitter to
wire that is their responsibility and property is almost certainly legal.

I worked for one of the bigger ISPs up until last year, so I speak only from
my personal experience. For more details:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarcation_point](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarcation_point)

~~~
kbenson
> The demarcation is generally clearly marked (plastic box often called a
> 'network interface device') and is almost never located at the modem itself.

Yes, but if cable companies always provided and required you use their cable
modems, then there would be a clear demarcation point, the cable modem.
Whether it's usually inside or outside is irrelevant (and "usually" in this
case is debatable. I've worked at multiple business locations where it's
inside, because there is a location dedicated for it). Of course there _isn
't_ a clear demarcation at the cable modem, as many cable companies allow you
to use your own cable modem instead of theirs, which is why I said the issue
is "muddied".

------
dyeje
I don't get it. Who's broadcasting the signal? How do they get paid?

~~~
EdwardMSmith
Local television stations (__not__ networks - although there are a small
number, limited by law, of network owned-and-operated local stations - usually
the biggest markets), which may or may not be affiliated with a network (CBS,
NBC, Fox, ABC), broadcast the signals.

If a local station is affiliated with a network, they've agreed to broadcast
the network's prime-time feed (7pm - ~midnight) including the national ads
that the network has sold to large brands.

The local tv stations get (not very many) ad spots to insert in between
national ads. The local tv station does not generally get any revenue from the
national ads (the big ads for big brands - Coke, Apple, Nike) and only receive
revenue from local ads (Stu's burger shack down on main street).

There are also open slots where the national network does not have shows
scheduled and local stations can broadcast locally produced shows, News, and,
sadly, tons of infomercials. This is the non-prime-time - daytime, weekends
and late night.

If the show being broadcast is locally produced, there are generally more open
ad slots for local ads. It is possible that the local station also gets a cut
of national advertising during that show.

The local TV station has purchased the exclusive right to use the
frequency/channel (in a particular "market") from the Federal Government, but
has to provide, as part of the agreement, a number of things, "to promote the
public welfare" \- such as educational programming, community service
programming, and a few other things.

------
nsxwolf
What I'd like is an easy, cheap DVR solution for OTA. Mostly I'd just like to
be able to pause and rewind live TV. After cutting the cord, it's like living
in the 80s again shouting at family members to be quiet when you need to hear
something.

~~~
car
Not exactly easy or cheap, but a data point for you:

My OTA DVR for the last 8 years setup has been a PC with Windows Media Center.
Apart from the setup, there is no monthly cost for the guide data, as with
Tivo etc. Right now this runs on a NUC, with a SiliconDust HD Homerun
(HDTC-2US) living in my attic, which transcodes the OTA MPEG-2 to H.264,
saving tons of disk space. A nice side effect is that I can archive shows
(e.g. NOVA episodes).

P.S. One interesting tidbit I remember from a Tivo ad (but can't dredge up
right now), based on their users TV consumption stats, apparently ~ 87% of
what people watch is available OTA.

Edit: Windows Media Center was dropped from Windows 10. The replacement will
be Xbox One DVR functionality, coming 2016.

~~~
dtparr
Interesting, I have a similar setup, but with the old standard PCI-based tuner
that just pulls the data and dumps it. I hadn't seen a tuner option that would
transcode it on the fly. Is there any noticeable lag when watching live? Does
the WMC still record it in the standard wtv format, just with a different
video codec?

What's a rough size estimate for a 1-hr show? Can you adjust the amount of
compression or otherwise tweak the h.264 encoding parameters?

~~~
car
Transcoding happens on the fly, in hardware I assume. The compression is
configurable, from a very high quality 1080p profile, down to more lossy
streams for mobile devices, 3 profiles total IIRC (non tweak able). The
highest quality mode is _almost_ indistinguishable from the OTA signal. No lag
or stutter, whatsoever.

An added bonus of the transcode is the reduced bandwidth in the LAN.
Previously I needed CAT5 for a stable ATSC stream, now Wifi suffices (e.g. to
iPad/iPhone). There is an app for the iPad, to watch those streams. On iPad
Air 2 it renders 1080p without lag.

Also, putting the HD Homerun in the network let's one get away with a small
head unit (in my case an Intel NUC).

You are correct, the resulting files are still wtv container, but with h.264
stream inside. VLC can play them fine. Not sure about conversion to MPEG4.

A 1-hour show comes out around 1.5GB (from memory), maybe less. Much better
then before.

~~~
dtparr
Great info, thanks. That's a 4-6x size improvement from what I'm seeing now,
so that'd be very helpful. Probably actually cheaper to buy this than just get
a larger HDD.

I'd looked at options that would auto-transcode recordings on disk, but they
generally changed enough things that it wouldn't maintain the metadata and/or
otherwise treated them as individual videos and not episodic content.

One last question, do you happen to have any extenders? I'm using an xbox 360
as an extender and I wonder if it can play the h.264 encoded video.

~~~
car
I did indeed have a Linksys extender, which stopped working completely after
upgrading to MC on Windows 7. Don't know about the 360.

------
chiph
If you're using an OTA antenna to get HDTV, this site can help you point it in
the right direction to get the best signal. Just enter your ZIP code.

[http://www.antennaweb.org/](http://www.antennaweb.org/)

~~~
drmpeg
A much more advanced tool here.

[http://tvfool.com/](http://tvfool.com/)

~~~
chiph
Nice.

Click "See which TV stations you can get on a map", then click ">> Start Maps
<<" and enter your address or just the zip code. When the map appears, check
the "Show lines pointing to each transmitter" checkbox for best presentation.

~~~
dtparr
That tool is handy, but I think the more standard one, especially if you're
looking for antenna advice on somewhere like the CordCutter reddit, is
actually under 'Check your address for free tv'.

Same major data provided, but in a table that's easier to pass around and you
generally don't need the map unless you're just curious.

------
blantonl
My understanding is that OTA HDTV is actaully uncompressed, which means you
get the best HDTV picture quality when receiving over the air.

Cable, uVerse, DirecTV etc all compress their HDTV signals resulting in far
more artifacts and pixelization. It is far more noticable when you have a 120
inch projector displaying a football game with lots of moving images etc.

~~~
joezydeco
OTA uses the 8VSB modulation standard, which provides about 19 mbit/sec of
payload.

If your station is not broadcasting any subchannels it's a VERY nice signal.
(It's still compressed with MPEG-2, the raw bitrate of a 1080p video is over
1Gbit/sec)

Unfortunately most channels in my market are sending 3-4 subchannels which
knocks down the quality of the primary. AFAIK only Fox broadcasts a single
stream (and football looks pretty freaking great there).

Yes, the cable and dish operators recompress the MPEG-2 stream into whatever
they are broadcasting and they do it at a lower quality to cram more channels
into their pipe.

~~~
nandhp
It depends on your local station; my Fox affiliate does have subchannels. But
the Fox network is only 720p anyway, so they should have the bandwidth
available.

------
rubidium
My experience was almost exactly that in the OP.

I bought my first TV used off craigslist 6 months ago (I'm 30, lived past 12
years w/o a television), mainly intending to use it as a big monitor to watch
movies/tv shows from my laptop via HDMI.

I started to get into local sports, but wasn't willing to pay for cable. I
suffered through a few poor quality (aka "was that a touchdown or
interception?") internet streams of the games.

Then one day I recalled that had a TV, not just a big monitor. $15 dollars
later I had an antennae and was getting the local football games over-the-air
in great HD.

------
SixSigma
OTA TV is $250 per year in the UK, before equipment.

If you get satellite / cable you still have to pay.

If you watch live on computer, pay up.

~~~
imglorp
Heh, they used to drive around in the UK with an EM locator, looking for
unlicensed TV's to tax. Craziness.

~~~
TeMPOraL
You mean unlicensed TV _broadcasters_? How could they track a _receiver_?

~~~
chiph
In the CRT days, from the HF section or the flyback transformer leaking
signals. Not sure how they'd do it today with LCDs.

~~~
ibmthrowaway271
Sound could be an option.

A TV license is required to watch broadcast television, so the number of
channels they could be watching is finite. Even a muffled signal detected from
a vibrating window (via laser microphone) could be compared to what is
currently being broadcast by each of the channels (give or take a short
processing delay) and any match found.

Nowadays it's mostly database enforcement. You obviously don't have to care
about addresses that do have TV licenses so you just go looking for people
with various TV subscriptions (Sky, Virgin Media) that don't have a TV
license. It used to be done by the retailers submitting addresses of people
who bought/rented TV equipment (TV, VCR, etc), any that didn't get (or already
have) a TV license would get a visit shortly afterwards. Also people who watch
programmes 'live' on-line (IP -> address conversion thanks to the DSL
providers).

------
scholia
One advantage of OTA TV is that it can be a very efficient use of spectrum. It
costs the same to broadcast a TV signal to 5 million users as it does to
broadcast it to 5 users. This is not the case with video (or radio)
transmitted over the internet or via cellular networks, where every additional
user consumes additional bandwidth.

~~~
njharman
The internet is not as simple as you imagine it to be.

~~~
scholia
I'm not as simple as you imagine me to be.

------
the_watcher
I had cable for one year after college (U-Verse had just come to my city and
it was actually cheaper to get cable + internet than just internet for the
first year), then cancelled. Only reason I have it now is that my roommate is
locked into a contract for a few more months (cancellation fee is greater than
just playing out the string, and there are some small convenience benefits,
particularly for sports). However, we'll be cutting that cord in December for
good. I've had a Mohu Leaf, Roku, and a Chromecast for 3 years (OTA, apps,
mirroring), and to be honest, the only things missing for me are Pac-12
Network and TNT (which only matters for select NBA games, anyway). Now that
SlingTV offers TNT, Pac-12 Network is really the only thing I'm aware of that
isn't legally available without cable.

------
GigabyteCoin
I'm a little confused here as a Canadian, and was wondering if anybody could
help me out?

When searching for TV antennas on Canada Computers (my go-to electronics store
in the GTA) I am met with cheap iCan (Canada Computer in-house brand which is
quite good usually) digital antennas which claim they have UHF/VHF reception
for about $10.

Then there are ATSC antennae which are all more expensive (~$20) and anything
I read about ATSC [0] on wikipedia sounds like that's the one I need.

So basically my question is will the cheaper antenna work? They have thousands
of them in stock across the country so it must do something... I'm planning on
picking up one tomorrow to watch the Jays.

I would ask them in store but I somehow doubt that their salesmen (who are
usually great) will know much about TV antennae.

------
ddingus
The tech is great. I bought a "COLOR TV ANTENNA" from Radio Shack, when they
were still open a few years back. Amazingly, it came in the same looking box I
recall from the late 70's. (upgrading mom 'n pops old antenna as a kid to get
UHF channels)

Took an hour to get a good orientation. Mostly problem free, and there are
some 30 channels here in PDX, maybe 10 of them offer something I might watch.

And that's the only real problem area. Commercial AD loads are HIGH. Higher
than I remember in the past. Quite frankly brutal, and there are very few
things I'll watch, given that high load.

Mostly, I use a Chromcast to stream things to the nice smart tv and call it
good.

~~~
falsestprophet
PDX is the airport code for the Portland airport just in case you don't keep
up with the airport code for the 19th largest US metro area.

~~~
function_seven
Ha, thanks! Like my multiplication tables, I have only memorized the codes for
the top 12 metro areas.

------
upofadown
Forums about TV antennas:

* [http://forum.tvfool.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10](http://forum.tvfool.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10)

* [http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/](http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/)

* [http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-over-air-ota-digital-tele...](http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-over-air-ota-digital-television/)

* [https://www.reddit.com/r/cordcutters/](https://www.reddit.com/r/cordcutters/)

------
smoorman1024
In my experience a lot of people don't realize you can get network TV in HD
with an antenna. The cost of cable is just way too high to stomach given other
available options, the best option being watching less TV.

~~~
LordKano
Do people in your area skew towards a younger demographic?

Here, widespread cable tv became dominant in the early 80s. A lot of us had to
use antennas to watch local tv on the main or secondary television sets in our
homes.

I haven't polled anyone but I can't imagine that most people aren't aware that
network tv can still be watched over the air.

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voltagex_
My digital TV (MPEG2 DVB-T, I'm in Australia) antenna recently broke and I'm
replacing it in the next few weeks.

Once it's back up and running I'll be using MumuDVB [1] to stream channels
over my network. Even a Raspberry Pi 1 should be able to act as a "receiver"
this way.

[1]: [http://goughlui.com/2013/11/10/project-building-a-dvb-t-
tv-t...](http://goughlui.com/2013/11/10/project-building-a-dvb-t-tv-tuner-
server-with-mumudvb/)

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AdmiralAsshat
Cordcutter here as well. My experience with HD antennae hasn't been great,
although it seems to be more due to my basement location than anything else. I
still get enough channels to keep it, but they periodically cut in and out,
which is a bit annoying.

I've spent a good bit of time experimenting with Kodi add-ons and Chromecast-
compatible apps. Those have worked pretty well for supplementing my
substantial amount of local media.

~~~
gk_brown
I've been antenna-only for 6+ years now. My first antenna cost $60 and was OK.
After a couple of years, I replaced it with a $100 version that is much
better. I rarely ever have any issues with it.

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jxav
I have a similar setup. I live in San Jose, and with a digital antenna and an
amplifier, I get more than 60 channels, with 20+ in flawless HD. The farthest
I think is in Napa. A not insubstantial number of them are in Vietnamese, but
still. Sometimes it's nice to just turn on the TV and watch whatever's on in
the background instead of having to choose something on Netflix or Hulu.

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hackuser
As much as I like the idea of free broadcast TV and not being dependent on
cable/satellite companies ...

1) Is over-the-air broadcast TV widely used anywhere? Very few even know about
it where I live, but maybe there are places where it's more common.

2) Is it essential to any group of people?

3) Could we get more beneift from that spectrum by repurposing it for
something else?

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abtinf
1) In the US, its _everywhere_. Usually, the more urban the location, the more
channels you can get.

2) It used to be the only way to get TV. And it costs a tiny fraction of any
other type of content provider. So you could say its essential to low income
people or people who think its immoral to support comcast.

~~~
ghaff
Everywhere is a bit of an overstatement. Most, if not all, urban and suburban
locations with reception rapidly falling off in exurban and, especially, rural
locations (i.e. the vast bulk of the land area of the US). Obviously on a
population basis, the OTA situation is a lot better but there's still a pretty
rapid falloff as you get 30 miles or so away from urban centers with TV
stations.

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maresca
I didn't have cable tv in college back in 2005. We used rabbit ears. I went
without cable tv for 8 or 9 years and subscribed a year or two ago. I look
back and I'm glad at the money I saved. I was blown away when HD antenna was
introduced. The antenna is really underrated nowadays. I'd love to see it make
a comeback.

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umsm
On a home we purchased, the house antenna that was mounted on the chimney
picks up clear HD channels of the local stations that look wonderful.

Paying for TV doesn't make sense nowadays. If a home doesn't have an antenna
on the roof, I would recommend it as an upgrade for anyone interested in the
local channels.

~~~
s73v3r
Paying for TV can make perfect sense depending on someone's viewing habits and
what they watch. If they're into live sports, for instance, an antenna might
not meet their needs.

~~~
umsm
I completely agree. But I feel like in the very near future, content providers
will start selling subscriptions to their service.

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pbnjay
I haven't paid for cable TV in a long time. We've got netflix and amazon
prime, and pay the $20/mo for sling during college football season (I would
gladly pay less for an NCAA streaming channel..). Everything we watch is
covered by those.

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w8rbt
Winegard makes nice affordable OTA TV antennas. They are made in America too.

[http://www.winegard.com/hdtv-outdoor-
antennas?q=offair](http://www.winegard.com/hdtv-outdoor-antennas?q=offair)

~~~
darmok
Costco carries a few different TV antennas including Winegard models. They're
only about $40, they are flat and inconspicuous (basically look like a paper
towel) and they work great!

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JoblessWonder
What blows my mind is how many people I know who watch football on Sunday on
broadcast stations in SD because their cable box isn't HD. When I tell them
they could get HD with a $20 antennae their minds are blown.

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nobleach
I love the idea of using an antenna. HDTV with 5.1 surround for no cost other
than a rooftop or set top antenna? This is the future! (or the past) Only one
problem, what if we live in an area where we are blocked from a signal? Could
a community pool their money and buy a shared antenna? (as was done in the
1970s - this is how the cable companies go their start) No. We could not. The
cable companies (and others) would sue. This is what happened with Aereo.
Brilliant business model that made cable companies successful, is sued out of
existence. TiVo bought their assets, so perhaps there's still hope. But it's
sickening how much power we've given these anti-competitive companies.

~~~
s73v3r
Aereo was the anti-competitive one, I'm sorry. They were a cable company, just
not paying the same fees that the other cable companies were.

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pgrote
Is there a reason the publisher links to a Google search of the Antennas
Direct link instead of to the direct site? It was the only link that went to a
Google search.

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deckerdoes
What worries me is how long will it take for lobbyists or the government to
mess this great free HD over OTA thing up in the US. Let's hope never.

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hwstar
With the exception of sports and news, linear TV is dead. It doesn't matter if
it comes from the cable company or an antenna. Once users get a taste of
watching things on their schedule, they don't want to adhere to the
broadcaster's schedule.

Also, I am going to predict that the advertising model used by current cable
and broadcast networks won't ever work with on-demand programming. This is
probably why Hulu now offers the ad-free option. Getting rid of advertising
will improve the quality of the programming by removing the redundant parts.

~~~
jpollock
Broadcast TV doesn't place any more restrictions or limitations on linearity
of watching than any other transmission medium. If anything, broadcast TV
places fewer restrictions since it's open access - anyone can connect and
receive.

It's the devices used to receive the information, as well as the viewer's
desire to be WATCH IT NOW which force the linearity.

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mariodiana
The U.S. switch over to digital transmission killed my reception. The analog
signal had no problem with the mountain ranges between me and the nearest
metropolitan areas, but the digital signal can't make it through. I was using
a rabbit ear antennae up until then.

I get the NYC stations. It's perhaps a horrible thing to say, but Osama Bin
Laden's boys knocked out only one of my channels and only temporarily; the
FCC, however, killed them all.

~~~
jccooper
ATSC (well, 8-VSB) is pretty terrible at handling multipath. I live 12 miles
from the antenna farm and ought to be able to get great reception with a bit
of aluminium foil, but because I have a tree (who would have trees, right?)
any one antenna position gets only about 2 channels well.

If the FCC hadn't succumbed to NIH and used the European version (COFDM),
which handles multipath better, people might actually see the very nice
picture available over digital broadcast.

~~~
deckerdoes
Odd, we have trees and are 30 miles LOS from downtown. We get Fox, NBC, ABC,
CBS, 3 PBS, the hmm forgot the name, CB? something. We get all we want which
is main networks and in beautiful HD. I think Fox is in HD not sure, it looks
nice though. If we spoke Spanish we'd have more choices. A few times a year in
the early evenings Fox sometimes has issues but overall I'd pay for the
quality we get if it wasn't free, not much maybe $10 most per month. Don't get
any ideas US government!

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deckerdoes
I think Netflix and ironically the government (in the US) deserve credit for
enabling the cord cutting revolution.

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PretzelFisch
Cable to expensive? It's a 10 dollar addon(digital starter) if you have
internet with comcast. It used to be cheaper to have internet and limited
basic than just internet alone.

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urda
If I can't watch a show or movie on my Apple TV (or other streaming devices),
I just don't watch it.

Got rid of cable when I moved away for college, not going back anytime soon.

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kome
I am always stunned of how USA are both forerunners of new technologies, and
very backward as well... for credit cards with chip, digital television, gsm
diffusion, etc etc... Also, in most of United States you can not get an
european level ADSL.

~~~
douche
The US is very, very big, and very, very empty compared to Europe. Outside of
the I-95 corridor on the East Coast, some islands of density in the midwest,
and the coastal zone of California, Oregon, Washington, it's overwhelmingly
rural or uninhabited.

~~~
dangerlibrary
This is the correct answer.

Old, but still relevant density map:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_density#/media/File...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_density#/media/File:World_population_density_1994.png)

~~~
lorenzhs
Norway and Sweden have excellent Fiber-to-the-Home and very low population
density. You can get 1GBit/s symmetrical quite cheaply (I don't remember how
much, one Swedish offer I found just now is $120/month).

~~~
dangerlibrary
1\. I suspect that offer isn't available in northern Norway.

2\. They are only a couple hundred miles from the big internet exchanges in
the Netherlands and Germany. Most of those miles can be covered with undersea
cables, so you don't need to dig, which is expensive.

3\. The U.S. regulatory environment for internet providers is horrible and
everyone knows it.

~~~
Symbiote
See [1], which is a request to tender: "Tromsø Municipality will contribute to
the initiation of construction of a powerful and progressive fibre-based
broadband network in the outskirts of the municipality of Tromsø". I assume
that means the town itself already has it.

Or [2], a press statement from Luleå's largest fibre broadband provider, back
in 2012.

Both places are in the Arctic, Tromsø is 3000km from Amsterdam. NYC to London
is only 5,500km...

[1]
[http://www.publictenders.net/node/1956874](http://www.publictenders.net/node/1956874)

[2]
[https://www.telegeography.com/products/commsupdate/articles/...](https://www.telegeography.com/products/commsupdate/articles/2012/10/25/lunet-
offers-its-fibre-customers-com-hem-tv-packages-in-lulea/)

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NoMoreNicksLeft
Lord knows why. It's basically a tool to pick up non-stop advertising. If
you're lucky, there's some horrible Big Bang Theory rerun displayed in one
quadrant of the video signal, sped up to 210% normal framerate, so they can
fit more commercials in. Plex is the new tv antenna.

