
Ubuntu tapped by China for national operating system - iProject
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/03/22/china_makes_linux_os_with_canonical_help/
======
cs702
Leaving aside the normal concerns about collaboration with an authoritarian
government, this looks like a really big deal: _Ubuntu is now the "reference
architecture for standard operating systems" in China._ [1]

If I understand correctly, this means a flavor of Ubuntu (and Unity, according
to the press release) will be used by hundreds of millions of people within
the next decade, far surpassing the worldwide market share of Mac OS X, Chrome
OS, etc.

In all likelihood, Microsoft now views Ubuntu with Unity as a main competitor
on the desktop.

\--

[1] [http://www.canonical.com/content/canonical-and-chinese-
stand...](http://www.canonical.com/content/canonical-and-chinese-standards-
body-announce-ubuntu-collaboration)

\--

Edits: changed "few years" to "decade," in response to hydrology's comment
(thanks hydrology!); and added a reference to Chrome OS and Microsoft.

~~~
cheapsteak
Apple is incredibly popular among Chinese international university students,
but the first thing everyone does when they get a new Macbook is to install
bootcamp and never boot into OSX again.

If even the brightest and more malleable of the people don't want to use
anything except Windows, I don't see the average person switching to Ubuntu at
all.

~~~
w1ntermute
It has nothing to do with the Chinese international students being bright
(which they generally are) or malleable (which they're not - they're just
studying machines). It has to do with the fact that there are a ton of Chinese
websites that only work in IE.

~~~
cheapsteak
That is a good point, although I think it's more of Windows-only programs like
PPS, a TV and movie streaming app that fills the Netflix void, except it's
free so everyone and their mother uses it

~~~
kyllo
Desktop programs are an issue, but they can be ported.

The biggest problem is all the websites that serve ActiveX plugins. Web apps
are supposed to be platform-independent, that's one of their biggest
advantages, but Microsoft sabotaged that with ActiveX. Microsoft did a
tremendous amount of harm to internet users by producing so much platform-
dependent web software.

~~~
sukuriant
Did you really just say that it's easier to write a large number of windows-
only programs than it is to either:

    
    
       a) fix the websites that have ActiveX dependencies
       b) modify a single web-browser to support ActiveX like IE6 used to
    

If true, ... wow.

~~~
kyllo
What I meant was that the large number of currently Windows-only Chinese
desktop applications will not be the biggest obstacle to Chinese users
adobting Ubuntu, because they can be ported, and Canonical is working with the
Chinese government to port the most popular ones ahead of time.

The number of Chinese websites out there with ActiveX dependencies is probably
much greater, and you can't really "port" a website. Good luck getting all
those Chinese web developers to fix their sites.

If Canonical bundled a web browser that supported ActiveX, that would
temporarily resolve the problem (while enabling it to perpetuate), but I'm not
sure if Microsoft's licenses even allow a non-IE browser to re-implement
ActiveX.

So, I think that not being able to browse many Chinese websites on other
platforms is the main thing that keeps Chinese users locked into IE/Windows
right now.

Perhaps, though, my knowledge is outdated and ActiveX plugins aren't as
ubiquitous in China as they used to be.

~~~
w1ntermute
I'm sure the Chinese government could force the most popular sites to replace
ActiveX, but it'll be hard to get to the long tail.

------
riobard
Seriously? NUDT (National University of Defense Technology) still names it
Kylin? How shameless… A little bit of the old story for those who don't know:

Around 2001~2002, NUDT, Lenovo Group, and a few other organizations took a
government grant of 70 million RMB and claimed to independently created a new
operating system with their own copyright/IP for defense use called Galaxy
Kylin.

In 2006, an analysis [1] of the “new” OS revealed that Kylin was most likely a
fork of FreeBSD, which voided the previous independent creation and
copyright/IP claims. Worse, they did not follow FreeBSD license when
distributing the software.

When the scandal was published and went crazy in the media the same year,
another interesting incident happened: access to www.freebsd.org was blocked
from mainland China. In fact, the term “FreeBSD” became a sensitive keyword
that if you mention it anywhere on any page, your connection will be cut-off
and subsequently blocked, not just www.freebsd.org [2]. Of course there was no
official statement regarding the connection between the two (what do you
expect anyway…), given the deep involvement of NUDT and the Great Firewall,
one has to wonder…

Looks like they learned something from that scandal and this time they
acknowledged the adoption of Ubuntu/Linux upfront. Let's see what will happen
next.

[1]:
[http://www.dancefire.org/article/Kernel_Similarity_Analysis....](http://www.dancefire.org/article/Kernel_Similarity_Analysis.html)
(in Simplified Chinese)

[2]: <http://www.williamlong.info/archives/406.html> (in Simplified Chinese)

------
bane
What happened to <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux> ?

~~~
trotsky
new with desktop 6.0 SP3 (the latest version): KDE 3.6

------
jstanley
"Because the software is open source it's unlikely that any backdoors could be
added into the Ubuntu OS without the global Linux community taking notice."

Depending on the level of involvement China actually has, I don't think they
would have any qualms with distributing binaries with backdoors, but keeping
their changes secret.

~~~
tankenmate
But as a mechanism of state control that can be very flimsy, it is much
easier, however probably not cheaper, to control the choke point; the network.
If all it took to avoid state control was a re-install of a non-approved
version of kylin/ubuntu then everyone would do it.

~~~
lifeisstillgood
The mechanisms of state control remain unchanged - and none of them are
online. The big fears of the (non-activist) population are that someone will
physically take them or their children to a dark hole, and that someone they
know will inform on them so that happens.

IP networks are not involved.

East Germany is probably the most obvious example in recent times - and the
fear mostly came from knowing someone could inform on you. If you thought a
person was going to inform on you, one would avoid them naturally.

So, if you think a computer will inform on you, you would naturally avoid it.

It seems to me that the chinese state is in a bind similar to that faced by
Deng xiaoping - this thing the West does (Capitalism or Internet) is enabling
them to charge so economically ahead it is an existential threat _not_ to
follow. But if we do follow _the party_ risks losing control.

Deng did take the risk and the loss of control seemed to be offset - however
this time the rifts in the party are deeper, the gulf between rich and poor
wider.

I would not like to be making those choices.

~~~
analyst74
I think you're over-estimating the amount of control the party has or tries to
enforce in China. Inside Chinese border, the amount of people who fear the
party is probably in line with those who trust it -- not many.

~~~
lifeisstillgood
I will happily defer to those with real knowledge of China, however the basic
issue seems true - the vast, "make mockery of all that has gone before"
economic growth has been exclusively driven from democratic/free nations.

If you want some of that growth, it seems logical you need to allow freedom.
How much? How soon? How to stop it descending into anarchy? With a billion +
lives on the line ... well I have a lot of sympathy for Presidents who go to
China and then don't jump up and down screaming "become a democracy NOW"

edit: I would be interested in knowing why the down votes. I tend to delete
when I reach minus figures but I am interested with what opposing view to the
above others have (if it was just random expressions of dislike I will live
with it.)

~~~
stcredzero
_> If you want some of that growth, it seems logical you need to allow
freedom._

Singapore.

~~~
lifeisstillgood
I think Singapore is not the best example of a totalitarian dictatorship. Its
an elected democracy, low coorruption, high standards of living. But yes it is
"partly free" according to EIU its ranked with Hong Kong and Banglesh and a
long way above Russia.

So I would still say yes, freedom does bring economic benefits. One assumes
the more freedom the more benefits.

We ought to remember that at the polling stations

~~~
stcredzero
_> We ought to remember that at the polling stations_

The polling stations only represent a small part of the problem.

You know what I wish we had? A movement of common-sense _intellectually
honest_ discussion groups. Groups that are focused on media distortions and
facts. Groups that are predicated on the idea that the media and politics is
self-interested in promulgating drama and debate beyond what really makes
sense. I would like to be part of a group that likes to look behind those
curtains.

I think if one looks hard enough at an acrimonious debate, you eventually get
to some kind of _hard question_. Despite what the media often portrays, we're
often all just people trying to get to the bottom of some hard question, and
we should expect people to come to different conclusions.

~~~
lifeisstillgood
What you are describing is called Journalism

What we have in almost all newspapers and tv outlets is not Journalism and
when it occassionally is it is not comprehensive, sustained or penetrative

I suspect that in the uk as we may or may not get so e press regulation, we
shall find blogging as the protected speech and slowly find local issues
becoming driven from local blogs.

It's going to be fun to watch

------
kyllo
This is a great idea. Now one and a half billion Chinese can get their free
OS'es completely legally instead of using pirated, possibly malware-tainted
copies of Windows XP. And Microsoft can stop crying about the hypothetical
lost revenue due to piracy when everyone switches to a better, free product.

Not that they couldn't switch before, but perhaps the official government
endorsement of Ubuntu will jump-start the adoption rate in China.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
This assumes that the new OS will be better than WinXP/Win7/Win8. (Well, let's
just not talk about Win8.) If "better" means more compatible with existing
apps, more stable, easier to use, more standard... not sure you can make an
argument for that. Maybe in a few years when the desktop is just a portal for
web apps.

Plus... China's currently only 1.34 billion. They've got a ways to go to get
to 1.5B.

~~~
stcredzero
_> If "better" means more compatible with existing apps, more stable, easier
to use, more standard... not sure you can make an argument for that. Maybe in
a few years when the desktop is just a portal for web apps._

WINE has made some big strides. If the Chinese government properly got behind
it, a properly outfitted Ubuntu with really well integrated WINE might be a
defacto Windows replacement in China.

------
shared4you
The Indian govt. introduced BOSS Linux [1] many years ago as the "official"
Linux distro, based on Debian. Alas, no one has even heard of it, let alone
use it.

[1]: <http://bosslinux.in/>

------
tomrod
I thought Linux avoids malware by both unpopularity and security features? If
it suddenly has a global market share of 20%, what then?

~~~
javis
I asume the majority of people currently using Ubuntu are smart enough to
avoid malware.

~~~
tomrod
I'm not, and I use Ubuntu. I'd love a good tutorial to start learning about
it.

~~~
jimmaswell
You really don't need to boycott Firefox like the other commenter suggested.
Just disable java and set plugins to click_to_play in about:config.

------
coldtea
I take offense with the following part of the article:

"Other repressive nations that have developed local versions of Linux include
North Korea, which built the KDE-based Red Star OS to help wean it as a nation
off of an unfortunate dependence on Windows made by the capitalists over at
Microsoft."

China is a "repressive nation"? Says who? Britain, the leader in colonialist
aggressions, mass slavery and blatant interventions to third nations?

~~~
staticfish
Absolutely.

* Tiananmen square. Murders against any form of civil disobedience.

* Secret and non-secret alliances with North Korea.

* Occasional acts of aggression on Japan.

* Great firewall, general suppression of information from citizens.

* Massive amounts of political corruption.

* Human rights violations aplenty.

* Causing an environmental catastrophe. Fucking up the entire planet in the process.

* Tibet, Taiwan, etc etc

~~~
mtgx
Unfortunately, I think most Chinese living there have bought the government's
argument that if any of the stuff you mentioned above would not exist, it
would "disrupt" the "unity" of their society. So everyone must stay in line
for the "greater good", even if violent action is necessary against some
individuals.

What's the scariest thing in such situations is not one tyrant or another. If
only that was the case, it wouldn't be too hard to replace him. The scariest
part is when a _culture_ forms around that tyrant's ideals. Because _that_
will be very hard to "kill" or replace. It can take generations, depending on
how deep that culture goes.

Look even at US. Let's say the TSA was a complete and total mistake, and
history will prove that to be right. But how long will it take to kill the
TSA? It's already been a decade, and I can easily see it last another decade.
So is it just Bush or Obama at fault for keeping TSA? No. It's country's
culture right now that TSA and plenty of other "counter-terrorist" measures
(including the stamping of the 4th amendment) are "needed".

When you look at it from that point of view, you begin to understand why most
Chinese may not necessarily see what their government is doing as a bad thing,
because they themselves think their measures are good and necessary.

~~~
staticfish
That's an interesting point, but it's really difficult when you talk to a
Chinese person and they flatly deny tiananmen square, or that their government
is suppressing their own freedom.

When you go to prove it on the internet, it still seems like they just do not
want to believe. I find that very difficult to deal with.

I'm not going to win friends here, but it's much like talking with an Israeli.

~~~
coldtea
> _I'm not going to win friends here, but it's much like talking with an
> Israeli._

Or an American, for that matter.

Americans still believe they are a "progressive" and model nation for freedom.

Segregation was merely 40 years ago. People go to jail for decades for
procession of marijuana. They execute teenagers. They execute (period --
almost all western countries have stopped this shit). People still are told
(and ...believe!) that Truman dropped nuclear bombs on civilians "to end the
war" and that "his hands were tied". The number of incarcerated people is
record breaking for any nation on earth -- and the vast majority of them are
black. Plus -- people still believe they have the right (or even
...obligation) to intervene, that is invade, other countries, either to "bring
democracy" or because they have "strategic interests" there.

~~~
staticfish
>Americans still believe they are a "progressive" and model nation for
freedom.

Not all Americans. Look at HN or any semi-educated social circle.

A lot of your points just bring up tit-for-tat historical talking points. Yes
a lot of countries have done a lot of terrible things throughout history,
especially the west, but we're talking about now. 2013.

Today I just read an article describing how the Chinese have just sent 12
escaped North Koreans back to NK to be welcomed by torture and generations the
same fate.

2013 China is a disgusting example of a modern and humane country.

~~~
scarmig
But the tit-for-tat is totally relevant! At least for things happening in the
present day. Most people's countries are doing things you disagree with: but
within a country, even if you oppose someone doing something, you can usually
sympathize with the rationale behind it. When the media deflects attention to
those evil people with different color skin across the ocean, it's very easy
to simplify things.

Case in point: those escaped North Koreans weren't merely refugees but
defecting soldiers who had shot their superior officer. Do you think China
liked being in that situation? You can either cause a major international row
with a nuclear-equipped rabid dog who for historical reasons is sitting a
couple hundred miles away from your capital, or you can send a rebellious
military unit back for certain execution.

What would you have done? And let's make this sharper: what would your
country's military bureaucracy have done?

Why not let people who have actual local knowledge and care about changing
things focus on what local people's actual priorities are and the real pain
points for human wellbeing?

------
peripetylabs
It's interesting to see the developing world adopt GNU/Linux. Venezuela
created Canaima. [1] Turkey created Pardus. [2] Iran has announced plans for a
national distro. [3] Russia has announced plans for its public sector to use
free software. [4]

I suspect, though, that many of these initiatives are simply exercises by
universities or government IT organizations to understand the technology,
rather than to advocate for its use.

[1] <http://canaima.softwarelibre.gob.ve> [2] <http://www.pardus.org.tr> [3]
[http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/03/security_fears...](http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/03/security_fears.html)
[4] <http://open.cnews.ru/news/top/index.shtml?2010/12/27/421556>

~~~
pm90
and bosslinux in India <http://bosslinux.in/>

In this case, I think they're trying to make an operating system that uses
Indian languages, so that its easier for those in rural areas to operate it

------
mindcrime
Why wouldn't they go with Red Flag Linux[1]?

[1]: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux>

------
waterlesscloud
Maybe some of the same American schools that are teaching children Mandarin so
they can be competitive in the world of the future will now also teach them
Linux.

------
zirok
Could have a positive effect on consumer grade hardware support for linux in
general?

~~~
wladimir
Yes it could. I suppose especially on ARM/MIPS SoCs (which many consumer
devices are based on). Linux is a one of the few valid choices once you stray
from x86, especially as China govt has already said they want to reduce
dependence on Google/Android. Maybe that's where Ubuntu comes in.

------
vorg
A month ago I walked through some big computer markets here in China looking
for computers pre-installed with Ubuntu, calling out "Have not have Yubentu?",
always hearing "Not have!" and only seeing Windows 8 on every screen.

It could be next year I do the same, and _only_ see Ubuntu, with Windows 8
nowhere to be seen. Incredible!

------
davidroberts
_The news means Ubuntu-stewards Canonical will work with China's National
University of Defense Technology...

....to ensure that the platform is relevant for the Chinese market... _

Exactly which features does the University of Defense Technology consider
relevant? Is Canonical enabling repression or military aggression?

~~~
laumars
Canonical aren't enabling anything. They just repackage open source software
(bar their custom themes and Unity).

If the Chinese populous don't like any of the governments additions, then
those users can grab the binaries / source code directly and roll their own
customisations.

~~~
YokoZar
If you don't think building a usable linux distro is an enormous amount of
work you've never actually tried to do it. Canonical (and the Ubuntu project)
is an awful lot more than a few Canonical-originated upstreams.

~~~
laumars
I have built my own distro before. But that's not the point of what I said. I
was saying the Canonical didn't write the software in question and that said
software could be installed on any distro. Which means it's a bit of a stretch
to blame Canonical for enabling censorship in China.

It's a bit like when people blame ISPs when customers use their services for
piracy. The difficulty of setting up an ISP (or distro) is completely
irrelevant in this discussion.

------
irmbrady
I imagine this resulting in a mass amount of spyware/viruses/exploits
appearing on Linux systems.

------
deelowe
I know I'm a cynic/paranoid, but is this in any way tied to the increase in
cyber espionage? There's been rumors of the US pushing for backdoors and/or
not disclosing exploits in windows and applications, is this China's response
to that? Is China looking to do something similar with Linux by using Ubuntu
as a trojan to get subtle changes added?

I get very concerned anytime any govt entity wants to get involved with a
project.

------
macco
Interesting agreement. But at the end, the market will decide what it wants to
buy. I hope it will be Ubuntu, but that it another story.

------
kercker
I think for Ubuntu to succeed in China, it will need support from Tencent,
whose QQ is the most popular IM application in China, and until now doesn't
have a decent, full-fledged Linux version.

------
esalman
I hate it when they put advertisements on either side of the main content on a
web page. Normally I middle-click in that area to scroll.

~~~
wladimir
I'm not sure why the register article is the one being most voted up, instead
of the official Canonical announcement:
[http://www.canonical.com/content/canonical-and-chinese-
stand...](http://www.canonical.com/content/canonical-and-chinese-standards-
body-announce-ubuntu-collaboration)

------
JamesArgo
But if this takes off, I'll lose all my security by obscurity. I guess I'll
have to go back to BeOS

------
outside1234
is it really named Kylin such that it would be pronounced "Killin'"? That's
awesome.

~~~
kyllo
I'm not exactly sure how it's supposed to be pronounced, but it's the
romanized Cantonese name for this mythical beast (pronounced more like "chee-
leen" in Mandarin): <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qilin>

~~~
whaevr
From the wikipedia page; "The Qilin... is said to appear with the imminent
arrival or passing of a wise sage or an illustrious ruler." and by doing this,
Canicol is bringing Linux to the masses of a country. Ironic.

------
salmanapk
> PUT for update (and PATCH too).

PUT for update and PATCH for partial update.

