
Ask HN: Is getting into a top ~5 CS PhD program possible in mid-30s? - garkimasera
I&#x27;m looking to transition out of startup nonsense and move into basic research. Obviously, it&#x27;s extremely competitive to get those positions, and pedigree is a requirement.<p>Rather than fight human nature (trust me, I&#x27;m smarter than most pedigreed people; it&#x27;s just exhausting and socially challenging to prove it) it seems like pedigree might be one variable that I can actually change: go back to grad school.<p>Unfortunately, I don&#x27;t think I can justify the opportunity cost unless it&#x27;s one of the top few programs. It needs to be career-making to justify 4-6 years of effort plus opportunity cost.<p>Is this even possible, though? Honestly, I know how competitive it is, and while my undergraduate grades are fine and I could nail the GRE again, I doubt I can pass admissions.<p>I&#x27;m old. I&#x27;ve worked in software for 10 years, had Director-level positions, and make over $200k per year (even though I&#x27;m miserable) but industry experience isn&#x27;t valued in academia, and I haven&#x27;t written a line of LaTeX since the mid-2000s. When it comes to recent research experience (as in published papers, not corp. R&amp;D) I have zero. It seems like I&#x27;d need to hook up with someone in an AI lab and moonlight, <i>pro bono</i>, for that person for ~7 months in exchange for a game-changing recommendation. I have no idea if that&#x27;s feasible.<p>Also, how do people who go to grad school as adults line up the consulting work? Realistically, I need 400-500 hours per year (at ~150&#x2F;h). I&#x27;d still be taking a huge pay cut, but I can live on that. (I can&#x27;t live on a stipend alone. I have expensive health problems and live in the US.) I can easily afford 10 hours per week on consulting, in addition to graduate school. I just can&#x27;t afford wasting <i>more</i> time going out and getting the gigs. This is yet another reason why it&#x27;s essential that it be a top department.<p>Is what I&#x27;m discussing (getting into top CS department, getting enough consulting income to live reasonably) feasible, or am I just too old?
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zerohp
I'm a current graduate student in my 30's in a top five ECE department. I
spent 15 years in software but I only recently completed my undergrad.

I'll address only a few things you mentioned.

> Is this even possible, though? Honestly, I know how competitive it is, and
> while my undergraduate grades are fine and I could nail the GRE again, I
> doubt I can pass admissions.

Are your grades fine, or are they outstanding? GRE doesn't matter, many CS
programs don't even require it. You need to have three strong recommendation
letters from people with a background in academic research. Don't even bother
getting a recommendation from someone without a PhD. Ideally, the people
recommending you have published notable work in your chosen specialization.
Once you've got that, then you only need convince one professor to provide
funding for you and you will be admitted to the program. Age doesn't matter.
If anything, it helps you relate to the professors you'll be interviewing
with.

> Also, how do people who go to grad school as adults line up the consulting
> work?

They don't. Not in a top department. Your research group will look very
unfavorably on doing outside, non-research, work. Graduate school is not like
a job where you can leave it at the office at 5 pm. It becomes your life. It's
unlikely that you'll be able to handle 10 hours a week.

I know quite a few graduate students in their 30's and all of them rely on a
spouses income in addition to a stipend. I live with my girlfriend who is also
a graduate student. Our lifestyle is not lavish, but money is not a source of
stress for us.

Don't be terribly concerned with health care costs. My university provides
better health insurance and health services than any company I've worked for.

~~~
seeing
_GRE doesn 't matter, many CS programs don't even require it_

The GRE isn't irrelevant.

~~~
argonaut
Among top CS programs (top 20), what I've heard is that it doesn't matter as
long as you get a decent score. And if you need to do heavy studying to get a
decent score, there's little chance your grades and/or research record is good
enough to get admitted in the first place.

------
argonaut
1\. Your grades aren't that important. Most important is evidence you can do
research (publications or letters of rec.)

2\. It is possible to consult in AI/ML, because there is so much industry
demand, but you definitely can't count on it. Also, you probably won't be able
to consult in your first 2 years, because you'll be busy ramping up and taking
classes / passing quals / figuring out your research area. You might have a
better shot at relying on internship income (you can make ~30k over the summer
as a research intern for companies). But the catch in all of this is that the
more consulting/interning you do, the more that will delay graduation (unless
you get top tier research papers out of your internships).

3\. I would get started with MOOCs and online courses on the fundamentals in
whatever area you're interested in, on your own time, and after that start
reading papers / implementing things / experimenting. Then some options for
you:

a) you might consider approaching professors for volunteer research work
(which does happen), or even paid research assistant positions (low pay,
obviously).

b) you might consider applying for a top-tier master's first, with a focus on
getting and doing research. This will be expensive (like $120k for two
years?), however, and worsens the opportunity cost (especially because it is
not guaranteed you get into a top PhD after the master's).

~~~
samfisher83
The average GPA for UT of accepted people is 3.84:

[http://www.utexas.edu/ogs//prospective/stats/pdf/GPA2015.pdf](http://www.utexas.edu/ogs//prospective/stats/pdf/GPA2015.pdf)

UT is a pretty good CS school, but I wouldn't say a top school.

~~~
argonaut
I said they aren't _that_ important. Obviously, a low GPA (3.0 or less) will
get you rejected unless you have mindblowing letters of rec / publications.
But, tons of people have high GPAs, so a high GPA is not going to get you into
a top program. Also, an average GPA, but great recommendation letters (and/or
publications in top venues) _will_ get you into a top program. Interpolate as
you will for GPAs between a 3.0 and 3.5.

Also the kind of person who gets papers published or gets great recs is going
to be correlated with a high GPA.

------
closure
> I'm looking to transition out of startup nonsense and move into basic
> research.

There are options other than startups and moving to research.

Are you considering those?

It's not entirely clear to me from the post what you're hoping to attain by
completing the PhD.

By the way, mid-30s isn't old, 10 years of experience isn't much, and a
director-level position in a startup isn't particularly meaningful (if you
were a director at a major corporation it might be).

~~~
GFischer
To play devil's advocate: I'm in my mid 30's myself and I'm not a director
anywhere, so it does sound impressive to me (ok, maybe not enough for top 5
school ambitions or whatever).

And it does seem old compared to the perception of how life is seen in Silicon
Valley / startup culture.

------
samfisher83
I think you are over glorifying the academic world. From my experience it is
pretty similar to the real world. Professors are writing grants and trying to
get funding. Its kind of a rat race. Sometimes they get things they like
sometimes they don't. It might be easier at a top 5 school to get funding for
cool projects.

Also they treat international students like shit. One professor asked me to
take a fewer hours so I could spend more hours doing research. However I was
not a foreign student and didn't need his funding so I just stopped working
with him.

------
smt88
I read recently that CS PhDs are having a very hard time finding jobs. I might
be mistaken. That's an assumption you may want to verify -- that getting a PhD
will result in the kind of job you want.

~~~
pyvek
garkimasera's comment seems to be shadowbanned, so I'm re-posting his comment
for visibility.

Ideally, I'd go to one of the top 4 departments: Stanford, MIT, Berkeley, CMU.
Graduates of top universities with decent skills don't have a hard time
finding jobs. I'll probably add Columbia and Harvard (middling departments,
strong lay prestige) as (irony here) "safety schools". A quant fund isn't
going to know the difference between a Harvard CS PhD and one from MIT (or
might put Harvard higher).

Anything below the top 20 (and it's top 10 in the rest of STEM and top 1-2 in
humanities) has to be purely for the education, though. You're right that a
#40 PhD, while the educational program is probably fine, won't fix your
career.

Also, the academic job market is terrible and that does not change if you have
a PhD from an elite department. That's not what I'm aiming for.

~~~
argonaut
A quant fund is almost certainly going to know the difference, since it's
filled with professional researchers. That being said, Harvard CS is still top
20, and your publication record will probably matter more.

