

College for all? Experts say not necessarily - edw519
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/College-for-all-Experts-say-apf-3621490094.html?x=0

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jcromartie
Not to mention the fact that a goal of universal _college_ is impossible, let
alone unnecessary:

"Whatever his or her claims of solidarity with the Third World, each American
college graduate has had an education costing an amount five times greater
than the median life income of half of humanity."

\- Ivan Illich, Deschooling Society (1970)

<http://reactor-core.org/deschooling.html>

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absolute
That's over three times the fourteenth-percentile four-year income of eastern
Europeans in the tech sector!

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JoeAltmaier
Worked in Silicon Valley all my life. The degree meant nothing. Worked with
lots of guys with no degree, doing the same job. All that mattered was skills.

~~~
hugh3
Perhaps programming is an atypical example, though? Without wanting to offend
anyone, could I suggest that programming is a profession more like a skilled
craftsman such as a carpenter or a plumber than anything which would have
traditionally required a degree?

For the most part it requires a great deal of skill and expertise, but not
necessarily so much _education_. Practice is the most important thing, the
amount of actual book-learning you need is quite small. This is why twelve-
year-olds who have read a few books are quite capable of becoming halfway
decent programmers; and I'm sure a lot of us here were once those twelve-year-
olds.

I'm not quite sure how to distinguish between jobs that require skills and
those which require education, but I do know that a doctor or lawyer needs
years of filling their head with facts about a particular field of expertise
before they can start producing useful work, whereas a programmer doesn't.

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awt
An interesting book on this topic is 'Shop-class as Soulcraft.'

There may be some virtuoso programmers that can write astounding software
without any prior experience. However, there are aspects that take most people
years to learn, due to the time it takes to release a project and see it's
failings. This is different from learning physics, philosophy, or the academic
aspects of law and medicine which can be learned in a classroom setting.
However, the practical aspects of law and medicine cannot be learned without
years of experience in the field.

So yes, to be able to start practicing software the required body of knowledge
is much smaller than medicine or law -- however this is somewhat artificial.
There is monopoly control over licensing for doctors and lawyers. If there
were monopoly control over licensing for programmers, they might have to spend
years in the classroom before practicing as well. I believe that apprentices
could start practicing medicine and law much earlier in their careers and
learn the facts they need along the way. This would be a lot more affordable
for students, but it would lower the wages of lawyers and doctors, so it's
probably not going to happen.

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OrangeGuutan
"I believe that apprentices could start practicing medicine and law much
earlier in their careers and learn the facts they need along the way."

As a medical student that just today finished his first year, I take a little
offense to that ;) Namely, there are already fields for exactly what you
describe: nurse practitioners, and to a lesser extent, physician assistants.
They are taught general patterns of a small set of diseases, and can only
diagnose that small set of diseases that specifically follow the course (i.e.,
pattern) that they were taught.

After a year of schooling, I am nowhere near ready to practice internal
medicine or family medicine, let alone specialty fields. I can spot your
garden variety shingles, ear infection, etc., but anything more requires
experience - and knowledge - that I do not yet possess (even after a year of
grueling studying!).

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petercooper
Not everyone can or must be successful in high flying, well paid career terms.
People of all skills levels are needed by an economy. The UK government's goal
of > 50% university attendance always struck me as insidious. The _option_
should be there, but we shouldn't encourage people who are perfectly happy to
not go and who have other non-academic or non-career related goals in life
(you'd think being a house mom or dad were a curse, a failure, or something..)

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jcromartie
You seem to be implying that the choice is either to go to college or be a
homemaker. That's rather condescending.

[http://www.millionairedropouts.com/millionaire.php/The_Milli...](http://www.millionairedropouts.com/millionaire.php/The_Millionaire_Dropout_List/)

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petercooper
Your inference is in error. No-one would be naïve enough to believe that life
is a binary choice between getting a degree and being a homemaker. Regardless,
my statements did not claim as such.

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pwhelan
Shop Class as Soulcraft is an excellent, excellent book about this. PhD who
worked as a motorcycle mechanic.

A lot of white collar work is requires no real thought only the ability to
concentrate. I think this is why so many people hate their jobs.

~~~
awt
Just read this book myself. For a while after reading it I was hell-bent on
becoming a motorcycle mechanic. However, I've come to realize there are a lot
of aspects of programming that are similar to the work the author says is
involved in being a Mechanic.

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watty
A 4 year degree doesn't guarantee success and no degree doesn't mean you can't
be successful. But, having a 4 year degree makes it easier to be successful.

~~~
xenophanes
A degree makes it easier to be successful at big companies with dumb
management -- but why work there?

It's no big deal at better places. If you don't get a degree, you can spend
less time learning at least as much relevant stuff.

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InclinedPlane
_"A degree makes it easier to be successful at big companies with dumb
management -- but why work there?"_

Because "big companies with dumb management" hire _a lot_ of people and pay
them well?

Most people aren't fortunate enough to have their dream job quite yet and
their number one priority for work is just getting the bills paid.

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xenophanes
The average 18 yo considering college doesn't have bills yet. IMO they should
aim for the life they want, and do their best to make it work out, not
sacrifice 4 years to make a semi-OK possible future work out more smoothly.

BTW if you're going to take semi-lame jobs, you only have to get hired a few
times in your life. Optimizing the job search part isn't a great use of time
-- even if no college doubles your lifetime job search time, going to college
would still be a loss in that respect.

~~~
hugh3
On the other hand, two thirds of 18yos don't _know_ what kind of life they
want. And of those that do, two thirds will probably have completely changed
their minds by the time they're 25.

Some people are incredibly driven towards a particular set of goals, but the
majority of people just sorta drift through life figuring things out as they
go.

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xenophanes
If you don't know what kind of life you want, how does college help? It pushes
you to pick a major, and to pursue a lifestyle where attending college was not
a waste of time and money.

And college is extraordinarily boring if you aren't already strongly
interested in what you're studying. To get a good value out of college at
minimum you need some initiative, and some understanding of what you want to
get out of it. You need goals or you will just drift through completely
pointlessly -- as many people do.

Of course one can try a variety of things at college. But one can do that
outside of college too. Shrug.

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hugh3
Oh, I never said that going to college would help, I'm just saying that your
"aim for the kind of life you want" advice isn't helpful to most school-
leavers.

I'd agree that if a kid leaves school and doesn't know what he wants to do
then going to university may not be the best option at all. Taking a few years
off to do something else is a great idea and shouldn't be stigmatized as much
as it is.

Heck, if you really want to shake up the education industry then perhaps it
should be _compulsory_ : have a university that won't let you in until you
demonstrate that you've spent eighteen months in the workforce doing something
impressive.

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gmjosack
I definitely don't believe a degree is necessary. I work for a large company
as a Senior (Linux) Systems Administrator at age 26. Most of the guys I work
with don't have degrees. I went right into work and jumped companies and got
promotions through hard work and self teaching. I agree that for some people
it can be very beneficial but a degree is in no way indicative of your skill
set and ability.

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MWinther
At least over here, Colleges are struggling with quality of education and
therefore hollowing out the worth of the degree because of larger classes.

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ImFatYoureFat
The problem if that there aren't very many alternatives that are as "secure"
as going to college. Bachelors to grad school or the work force is a easily
defined route and is proven to provide most people with the long term
financial security they desire.

The solution should be to integrate alternate forms of education and preparing
for the job market (ie starting your own business or apprenticing for a job)
into the college track.

I know there are several pretty glaring differences, but ultimately what are
the difference in goal between being a founder in a company and say getting a
"Masters in Entrepreneurship".

On a separate note, I know the family of the girl in the article. GO BRUINS!!!

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ggruschow
Have there been studies that've shown this proof?

