
Bay Area man must pay $136,000 in tech-support scam against elderly - newman8r
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/06/14/bay-area-businessman-must-pay-136000-in-tech-support-scam-against-elderly/
======
ra1n85
This judgement has no teeth:

>Under the settlement, Brar — who operated Genius Technologies and Avangatee
Services and does not admit or deny the allegations, according to court
documents — “is permanently restrained and enjoined from advertising,
marketing, promoting, or offering for sale, or assisting in the advertising,
marketing, promoting, or offering for sale of Technical Support Services.”

This guy is being made to pay 136,000 despite:

“The cost to consumers ranged between several hundred dollars to tens of
thousands of dollars,” the FTC said of the scam, which appeared to begin in
2015.

This is not justice, and this judgement does not serve as a deterrent. This is
grand larceny and needs to be accompanied with jail time for perpetrators.

~~~
haspoken
Paid to the FCC, and not the victims? It appears that the government is not
interested in the victims, rather just wants a cut of the scam for themselves.

~~~
privacypoller
How exactly would you propose a settlement of a criminal proceeding be paid
out to a large number of victims? This is what class-action is designed for:
it qualifies claimants, unifies proceedings and operates in civil court where
the barrier is much lower. I'm probably like most in that I think most class-
action suits are ambulance chasing lawyers cashing in vs. justice for the true
victims, but this seems to be a textbook scenario for class action.

~~~
gowld
This was not a criminal proceeding.

> I'm probably like most in that I think most class-action suits are ambulance
> chasing lawyers cashing in

That's not "most people", that's the big business lobby's propaganda. Yes,
it's often the case that the costs to prosecute a case are a large fraction of
the damages. The defendant doesn't escape punishment just because their
payments go to legal fees instead of customers.

------
legohead
Kitboga on twitch [1] calls these scammers and pretends to be various
characters and waste their time. He puts funny moments on youtube [2].

At the "end" of his calls he confronts them and tries to talk to them about
scamming old people. Most don't take it too well...

[1]: [https://www.twitch.tv/kitboga](https://www.twitch.tv/kitboga)

[2]:
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm22FAXZMw1BaWeFszZxUKw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm22FAXZMw1BaWeFszZxUKw)

~~~
deadmetheny
There's a very interesting two part episode of the podcast Reply All[1] where
they delve into one of these tech support scams. Worth taking the time to
listen to.

[1] [https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/long-
distance](https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/long-distance)

~~~
no0e9nceo
This one's great because they actually fly to India and meet the scammers!
Definitely worth listening to both parts!

------
afo
Even with all these high profile settlements, it's still not stopping the
problem.

Just today, we (Nomorobo) see 25 different numbers pushing Windows tech
support scams. It's like that every. single. day.

 _This is an emergency call from Windows Microsoft. Your Windows license key
have been expired all services are suspended on your computer. To renew call
our toll free 1-877-231-6134._

[https://www.nomorobo.com/lookup/844-805-7111](https://www.nomorobo.com/lookup/844-805-7111)

[https://www.nomorobo.com/lookup/855-328-4888](https://www.nomorobo.com/lookup/855-328-4888)

[https://www.nomorobo.com/lookup/844-517-8655](https://www.nomorobo.com/lookup/844-517-8655)

[https://www.nomorobo.com/lookup/844-904-1444](https://www.nomorobo.com/lookup/844-904-1444)

[https://www.nomorobo.com/lookup/972-441-0548](https://www.nomorobo.com/lookup/972-441-0548)

...

[https://www.nomorobo.com/lookup/855-895-6786](https://www.nomorobo.com/lookup/855-895-6786)

(edit: formatting)

~~~
forapurpose
I hadn't heard of your service and just looked at it. If you're willing, a few
questions I didn't see answered on the website:

From what I can tell, every incoming call rings simultaneously on the user's
phone and Nomorobo's systems. If Nomorobo detects a blacklisted number, you
pickup the call, play a 'you've been blocked' message, and hangup. Is that
basically correct?

So Nomorobo ends up with a log of all my incoming calls. What happens with
that data? Nomorobo is free for landlines (which I think means VOIP lines); is
data collection the tradeoff?

Also, can I submit a whitelist, to prevent important numbers from being
blocked? And is that list confidential?

Finally, do you work with old-fashioned POTS landlines? I'm interested in
Nomorobo for an elderly couple who still have POTS.

~~~
afo
Happy to talk about the landline product. Just for clarification, the mobile
product works completely differently.

1\. Yes, pretty much. Here's a more in-depth answer to what happens when the
call is answered - [http://www.6083716666.com/](http://www.6083716666.com/)

2\. Yes, we do get a log of the incoming calls. We use that to analyze the
high frequency calling patterns across millions of phone lines and build the
blacklist. The more people that contribute, the better the algorithm gets.

3\. We globally manage the whitelist and good robocalls (school closings,
pharmacies, doctors offices, etc)

4\. We don't work with POTS lines yet. The older technologies are tougher to
protect than the modern ones.

~~~
forapurpose
2\. Is the data used for anything else? Who has access to it? How long is it
retained? Is it anonymized?

------
tjpaudio
Pretty sure this guy got my mother. I remember her describing exactly this
trying to get her computer fixed. I had to explain to her it was a scam, help
her replace all her credit cards and wipe her machine to factory since
computer was compromised with remote access. It was a huge headache, this guy
deserves jail.

------
vorpalhex
I realize this is constrained somewhat by what the prosecutors can actually
prove... but it seems like the person in question should go to jail for
outright fraud and identity theft.

~~~
icebraining
I don't think the FTC can prosecute someone for criminal charges, regardless
of proof. They would need the DoJ or an US Attorney to follow up on those.
AFAIK, IANAL.

~~~
ellatrue
I think the DOJ could potentially build off of this case, though.

~~~
nothrabannosir
Amateur question : would that fall under double jeopardy ?

~~~
anchpop
IANAL but no, double jeopardy only applies to criminal cases

------
ellatrue
$136,000? He probably won'e even stop running his "business." Sounds like he
was making bank - just pay the fine and keep going. The problem with a lot of
illegal telemarketers/advertisers is its super easy for them to just pretend
to be someone else after they get caught and continue on their way.

~~~
Filligree
$136,000 plus an injunction against ever practicing tech support again,
whether legally or otherwise.

If he tries it again, and gets caught, then the next judgement will involve
serious jail time.

~~~
rconti
But how would he get caught again? Let's say he starts a legitimate tech
support business. I don't think there would be any connection between his new
business license and the FTC. Nor his tax returns. I think the ONLY way he
could get caught is to break ANOTHER law and end up before the FTC again.

Otherwise, I can't see how the FTC would have any idea what he's up to. It's
not like businesspeople register with the FTC.

------
keepper
anyone find this a bit funny?

    
    
       "...and can never offer tech support again."
    

I've never heard of a non licensed profession being barred from "practicing"

    
    
      Brar Mom: Hey Brar, can you help me setup my new iPhone.
      Brar: Not under my parole conditions..
    

Does that mean that an illegal street food vendor can be barred from cooking,
ever? hehe

~~~
maxxxxx
Doctors can be barred from practicing medicine. CEOs can be be barred from
running a company.

~~~
emodendroket
You need a license to practice medicine so that's not a good answer to the
original post

~~~
maxxxxx
True. I overlooked the word "non" in " I've never heard of a non licensed
profession being barred from "practicing"".

But there have been cases of people not allowed to use computers and whatever.
I think the judges have pretty broad discretion in some cases.

~~~
walshemj
CEO and Directors can be and you don't have to be licenced to be one.

------
ddtaylor
> The judgment was for $7.6 million, but it was partially suspended because of
> Brar’s inability to pay the full amount, according to the FTC.

Seems unlikely anyone else will be deterred from running these scams and I'll
still have to be helping my grandparents every few months do chargebacks on
scammers.

~~~
pc86
Agreed but to be fair if there is a judgment awarded that you cannot
reasonably pay, the entire thing will get kicked out. It's better to hit them
with a crippling amount that they _can_ pay than to try to get what is
actually owed but they end up paying nothing.

------
monksy
Why are they calling a scammer a "businessman"?

~~~
bittercynic
What else could that title mean?

------
circa
Slightly off topic, but the "Reply All" podcast did a great episode on the
foreign IT phone support scams about a year ago.

[https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/long-
distance#episode-...](https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/long-
distance#episode-player)

------
nvr219
This guy should be in jail though

~~~
mulmen
This misunderstanding of the US Legal system seems to come up frequently on
HN. Most recently about Theraos I believe.

The FTC cannot press criminal charges which means they cannot put people in
jail. Those types of charges fall to the Department of Justice who can
continue pursuing these cases if they believe a criminal offense has taken
place.

~~~
Retric
Fraud is still a crime punishable by jail time. So, even after the FTC get's
involved he can and should still be sent to prison.

------
no0e9nceo
So I'm wondering if they did any work to find out who was on the India side of
this so our law enforcement could work with theirs and maybe, I don't know,
capture them, extradite them, and you know, punish them for their
international crime? I can dream.

~~~
RandomCSGeek
Extradiction would be unlikely for such crime(even cases of terrorism can take
years for extradiction, or may not even take place). But it would be possible
to get them arrested in India.

That said, there are literally millions of people in India who have graduated
with whatever degree/certificate, can speak English, and are willing to work
in any kind of scam, as long as they get money to buy food. You can setup a
office in Noida/Mumbai/Pune/Bangalore etc, and hire these people for dime a
dozen. Things getting risky? Close everything and start anew in another city.

Problem lies in poor law enforcement in India, and lack of awareness among old
americans.

------
liveoneggs
last year a family friend got her whole identity stolen and gave the guys a
few hundred dollars.

Last week (!) my father ended up on the phone with someone before realizing he
was being scammed. He is going to just throw his computer in the trash and buy
a new one.

~~~
toast0
Get your father a chromebook -- the tech support scammers don't know how to
work them yet, and it's easy to "powerwash" them back to stock if they do get
taken over.

~~~
liveoneggs
I buy him refurbished windows desktops. They are the same price. :)

~~~
joshu
This is stupid :)

------
srishtigupta
Our measurement study on understanding the threat landscape of Tech Support
Scam across multiple Online Social Networks
([http://precog.iiitd.edu.in/pubs/shadow-sunshine-
characterizi...](http://precog.iiitd.edu.in/pubs/shadow-sunshine-
characterizing-websci18.pdf))

------
ryandrake
This guy should get the max punishment, but come on—it’s 2018! Who on earth is
still falling for this crap? If you haven’t yet had “the talk” with your
parents and/or grandparents, consider taking a half hour today and doing it.
End user education is the only way to stop these obvious (to us) scams.

~~~
dingdongding
You're on hacker news so it is easier for you to say that who falls for this
crap. Ground reality is completely different. Lot of young and mature people
can fall for this crap. It's like saying who falls for fake news these days.
It is gonna be a learning curve for normal people to understand nuances of
these scams.

------
desireco42
American prisons are scary places and I believe we lock people too easily. In
this case however, this guy should serve the time and not get that easily off
the hook.

------
alsetmusic
Unable to read article due to “ad-blocker.” Can anyone please summarize?

~~~
driverdan
Switch to uBlock Origin. The site loads fine with it.

------
iamleppert
Years ago when wifi first became a thing my friends and I would drive around
with early Wireshark and a Pringles can antenna and change all the open SSID's
we could find to "Call [some number] to secure your network". All the routers
back then were open by default so we could easily do a few dozen per day.

When they would call (and they always called), we would then show up and
charge the person between $50-$250 (or however much we thought we could get)
to change the SSID and setup WEP.

When times got desperate and we needed a new flat screen TV we returned back
to our previous victims, and, having their WEP passwords we setup, changed it
back to the original message:

"It's a good thing you called us -- the hackers got in again, but we have some
new defenses against them. Stick with us. We'll protect you."

As a bunch of tech-savvy poor kids, it was very satisfying taking money from
rich, old (mostly white) people. We were able to quit our jobs working fast
food with our new found venture. That somehow made up for the unethical nature
of it all in the youthful minds of late teen and early 20's punks.

~~~
mark_edward
Why would you share this story? It really is horrible. Anyway, glad you
changed.

~~~
fizwhiz
From GP's "about me" on HN:

> most of my comments are designed to provoke a response

Nothing to see here. It's likely a bs story.

~~~
mark_edward
That's... If I ran a forum that was supposed to be moderated like HN I'd ban
someone like that. This is Reddit-tier copy-pasta or YouTube "Social
Experiment" garbage.

~~~
iamleppert
All my content is my own and original, not "CopyPasta". Thanks for your value
judgement on my creative works in calling my content "garbage".

Why don't you go start your own forum that will be as dull and devoid of any
dissenting opinion as yourself?

