
ThinkPad Anniversary Edition 25: Limited Edition ThinkPad Goes Retro - artsandsci
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11902/thinkpad-anniversary-edition-25-limited-edition-thinkpad-goes-retro
======
chx
So much negativity today! Now look: I have a T420s , yes, it's a Sandy Bridge
CPU from 2011. It's older than my boots. It got a full HD screen hack last
year.

Now look what I am getting:

* a decent upgrade in CPU speeds * three years warranty instead of hair raising hacks * Thunderbolt 3 * 32GB RAM support

I truly do not need anything else. Compared to what I was afraid of and
budgeted for... at the end of the day I have _six years_ worth of unspent
laptop money. I already bought a second half tera SSD, two PackedPixels, a
large battery and if more reports confirm it's single module 16GB then I'll
buy a second 16GB stick now (I originally thought it's going to be a pair of
8GB and so I only planned going 32GB later but if it's already single stick
then even better).

I am happy with what I will get when I return to Canada. The comparison to the
T470p is total irrelevant -- why would I buy a machine without Thunderbolt 3
these days? The Microsoft keynote at IFA showcased a small Lenovo TB3 dock
containing a GTX 1050, Sonnet and Mantiz both have talked about totally
portable TB3 docks. It will happen. And then I have enough graphics power when
I want and a perfect light ThinkPad when I don't want. If I were an avid FPS
gamer then I could leave a powerful TB3 eGPU on my desk. Truly, eGPU is the
bees knees and you dont want to miss out.

And if you compare to the T470 you will realize the premium is not that much.

There are a lot of "what if" scenarios but being mad over them not happening
is stupid. We got something impossible: a laptop made for fans. No one else
ever did anything even remotely similar. HP did a sticker for their calculator
anniversary.

~~~
TheCowboy
> I have six years worth of unspent laptop money.

I bought a used W520 a couple years ago because I couldn't find a system with
a keyboard like this.

I think it's too early for people to be so negative. If a few months from now
this edition flops because it didn't go all out, then okay, but we're not
there yet.

While it doesn't have everything, I'm staring at a picture of a laptop made in
2017 with a keyboard that matches this 2011 machine.

Maybe if this sells out quickly we'll see more iterations in the direction
that Thinkpad "retro" fans want.

~~~
chx
Rumors are, there are only 5000 made worldwide. It'd be surprising if it would
flop.

------
solatic
X201 owner here. Still use it, but not as a daily driver, and I'm in the
market for one.

Lenovo screwed the pooch on this one.

1) Limited production run (5,000 units) and limited target audience (the
multi-color logo and anniversary badging? Really?) drastically increased the
price beyond what was reasonable (base entry cost being double the non-
anniversary base cost, forced spec decision due to a sole SKU aside).

2) No status LEDs

3) No ThinkLight

4) No 4:3 or 3:2 display

5) Given that the display is 16:9, only 1080p is offered

6) No physical kill switches e.g. for WiFi let alone more modern ones like for
the webcam and microphone

7) 940MX is aging, with poorer driver support in Linux compared to Intel
offerings, not to mention the battery hit from a dGPU

8) What is up with the letter alignment on the B key? On a machine where the
keyboard is _THE_ selling point?

It's really sad to watch the unboxing video they "made for the community"
where they claim that it's unfeasible to throw in a Thinklight into a modern
Thinkpad because the bezel is too thin. Well - pray tell, why is the bezel
that thin?? The entire Thinkpad brand was based on making, first and foremost,
highly _functional_ machines. Like I've said before in my comments, Thinkpads
were the blue jeans and pickup trucks of laptops. I don't want my blue jeans
to be thin, and I don't want my trucks to ride close to the ground. Maybe I
don't want such thin bezels either, if they're going to force a compromise on
functionality.

A T470 with a retro keyboard is not a modern successor to classic Thinkpads.
They used to be so much more. Maybe $1900 would be worth it if they developed
a true successor, but not this.

~~~
Stratoscope
> What is up with the letter alignment on the B key? On a machine where the
> keyboard is THE selling point?

The people who care the most about keyboards are touch typists who don't look
at the key labels. Moving the B label is because of the low profile TrackPoint
which requires a larger notch in the B key. Every recent ThinkPad has this;
it's something you'd never notice in actual use, only in photos of keyboards.
I had no idea my ThinkPad Yoga 460 and my friend's X1 Carbon had misaligned B
labels until people started talking about it WRT the T25, and I certainly
don't care about it now.

Definitely agree about the screen resolution; it would be a huge downgrade
from the Yoga 460.

~~~
stephenboyd
I've been using a Thinkpad for years and never noticed the placement of the B
key until reading this.

~~~
kevhito
I had multiple Thinkpads over the years and never noticed. I'm on an HP
elitebook now, and just looked down for the first time. Yup - misaligned B key
label.

------
drdaeman
Just a reminder that Lenovo is - unfortunately - not a company one can trust.

[https://thehackernews.com/2015/09/lenovo-laptop-
virus.html](https://thehackernews.com/2015/09/lenovo-laptop-virus.html)

[https://thehackernews.com/2015/08/lenovo-rootkit-
malware.htm...](https://thehackernews.com/2015/08/lenovo-rootkit-malware.html)

[https://thehackernews.com/2015/02/lenovo-superfish-
malware.h...](https://thehackernews.com/2015/02/lenovo-superfish-malware.html)

~~~
orthecreedence
Agreed, I was a pretty die-hard lenovo fan until they started pulling this
shit. When my t410 started showing its (very) old age last year, I went with a
Razer Blade instead of a new thinkpad. I'm extremely happy with it. I know
razer pumps out a good deal of lemons, but I won the lottery and have no
problems at all.

EDIT: I do really miss the nub (or whatever it's called). It made programming
in crammed areas (bus/plane/wife sleeping on me) much easier.

------
derekp7
I've been following this for a couple years, lots of discussion on reddit
/r/thinkpad. They basically produced a T470 with a classic style keyboard, and
anniversary badging.

As far as what people hoped for, they couldn't do a 4:3 or 3:2 display, as
that requires a larger bulk purchase than what they planned for this model
(only 5000 units produced). The thinklight wasn't possible because the screen
bezel is thinner. Hopefully they will use the classic keyboard on additional
models in the future, but there is no indication of that at this time.

~~~
woodrowbarlow
what are the benefits of the thinklight over a backlit keyboard? my old
thinkpad had the thinklight and i hated it.

i found that while using my laptop in an unlit room with the thinklight, the
blue function icons were impossible to distinguish and the top-left and top-
right corners of the keyboard required straining my eyes. i was 18-20 years
old with 20/20 vision at the time.

i would actually be very tempted by this release if i hadn't just bought a
dell XPS because i love the trackpoint (and lenovo's was always leagues ahead
of dell's) and i love having dedicated volume controls and a hardware mute
button (i can let my function keys be function keys without missing out on
single-key volume control).

~~~
Zak
The benefit is that it can be used to illuminate objects other than the keys,
such as a paper you're copying information from. A thinklight with higher
color quality, and maybe adjustable brightness would solve the problems you
had with it; white LEDs have come a long way in the past decade.

------
dxhdr
A similarly equipped T470p is $600 cheaper on their website. I can't seem to
add a 940MX on the regular T470.

I'm a big ThinkPad fan but I actually like their chiclet keyboards
(blasphemy), so I guess this is a pass for me. I think it's cool they're even
doing the anniversary edition though.

~~~
drenvuk
That's incorrect. A similarly equipped T470 is maybe ~$300 less but you miss
out on the discrete gfx card and the keyboard. I think you're looking at the
base price and forgetting the three year warranty that comes with this.

I've already bought one since the value is worth it.

~~~
zokier
Unless I'm bad at their webshop game, it seems bit curious that you can't get
a T470(p) with _both_ dGPU and low-power CPU. Dropping the GPU the equivalent
model (with 3yr warranty) comes to basically $1500, compared to $1900 for the
anniversary model. $400 (~25% increase) for the keyboard seems still bit
steep, dGPU most likely being more of a burden than benefit for doing anything
useful (ie running Linux).

------
joecool1029
I’m sorry, they had years to prepare this and couldn’t even align the ‘B’
properly.

51nb.com (chinese thinkpad forum) has been doing better work with less
resources by putting updated motherboards into classic thinkpad chassis. (see
X62 for example)

~~~
tosstossy
The x62 is super attractive, except even the sxga+ mod is still a dim CCFL, or
if you mod for led slightly brighter but colors all wrong with all sorts of
artifacts from the light strip, and aftermarket-only awful batteries.

-An sxga+ (w/led mod) x61s owner.

~~~
radialbrain
Typing this on an LED SXGA X61, you want:
[https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/thinkpad/led-
kit.shtml](https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/thinkpad/led-kit.shtml)

No banding on the bottom, accurate colors, and great brightness.

~~~
tosstossy
My mod was less successful, and the colors are definitely off. Having done the
mod myself and seen how cumbersome it is to get the LED strip perfectly
oriented in the CCFL gutter, I'm not likely to try again.

------
tosstossy
This should have been an x70; an oem x62 w/led backlit sxga+. Not some
preexisting workstation replacement beast with a classic keyboard slapped on
it.

Lenovo has been such a disappointment.

~~~
basch
i wish it had the one of the T410/T420/T430 blue middle click buttons. It used
to sit much higher at an angle, now it is flatter. All 3 of the trackpad
buttons above the pad are inferior.

------
jasonkester
It'd be awesome if they offered that classic keyboard for sale to retrofit
onto existing 470 and future models.

I just got a 470p, and I'd shell out for a real keyboard today.

------
tomatsu
Fn and Ctrl are the wrong way around.

My laptop also got pgup and pgdn in those position, but they have a slightly
different shape than the up key. I flipped them with Home and End with seems
to be a somewhat popular thing to do. Works much better for me.

The 1920x1080 resolution is a bit disappointing. Crispy text needs more DPI.

~~~
tejohnso
I share your disappointment with the resolution. 1920x1080 is at the low end
of acceptability. I'm at 2560x1440 on the Carbon X1 and I won't go back.

I never understood your side of the Ctrl / Fn placement argument though. Why
would you want the left side Ctrl key to be further from center than the right
side Ctrl key? And why would you want a more rarely used key (Fn) to be closer
to center?

~~~
SippinLean
Because I'm used to Ctrl being the outermost key on desktop keyboards

~~~
zeveb
But that's really an incorrect position for it. The most commonly used keys
should be easiest to hit (hence the Command key on Macs being right next to
the spacebar). Since Control is used more often then Alt, Control should be
immediately next to the spacebar, then Alt, then Function.

~~~
GrayShade
I always press Ctrl with the side of my palm. It's much easier than using my
pinky.

~~~
qu4z-2
Me too, and alt with my thumb. It drives me insane when Ctrl is not the
outermost key.

~~~
GrayShade
Exactly!

------
trimtab
Rats! They didn't provide the old mouse pad with buttons above and below. The
"click anywhere" mouse pads are a pain. And who wants to be stuck with only a
iCore 7U processor?

~~~
bhandziuk
If they're going to drop one set, why the bottom set? My thumb operates those
buttons and my thing does the cursor position...maybe some people are the
opposite.

~~~
soperj
Because most people who use a thinkpad use the trackpoint. I disable my
trackpad.

------
NikolaNovak
Hmm, the Lenovo configurator only offers one model: no indication whether RAM
can be upgraded to 32GB afterwards (which is what my current T420 and T420s
both have). The CPU can take it *1, but not certain what the memory config on
the laptop is...

1: [https://ark.intel.com/products/95451/Intel-
Core-i7-7500U-Pro...](https://ark.intel.com/products/95451/Intel-
Core-i7-7500U-Processor-4M-Cache-up-to-3_50-GHz-)

------
yoodenvranx
Someone please bring back 14" Laptops with 4:3 screens!

~~~
redacted
Surface Book has 3:2 which is really nice, quite expensive machine though (I
love mine, and have been lucky not to have any of the issues that seemed to
plague them in their early days)

~~~
satysin
The Surface Book has a great screen but my god that machine was an absolute
nightmare for the ~2 months I had it. Microsoft _seriously_ screwed up on QC.

Not to mention it was just _way_ over-engineered. All people were asking for
was a Surface laptop. Microsoft's own MacBook Pro but they just _had_ to do
something "unique" and it was a mess. Now we have the Surface Laptop that
comes with a gimped version of Windows[0]. Honestly I just don't understand
Microsoft.

[0] Yes you can upgrade it to Windows 10 Pro for free until the end of the
year but then it is an extra $50!

------
zwieback
Brings back memories - I was working in a SW startup in 1992 and we were
subcontracting for IBM, developing OS/2 network SW. They gave us a bunch of
PS/2 PCs but also tossed in an early ThinkPad.

------
antihero
Do you think it'll ship with BonzaiBuddy preinstalled?

------
duncan_bayne
Well, I'm done. I've been a Lenovo fanboy for _years_, currently running a
maxxed-out X220 w/ FreeBSD 11.1.

But after _years_ of clamouring by the ThinkPad community, Lenovo has a
released a decidedly half-assed machine. Yay for the keyboard, but no 4:3 /
3:2, ThinkLight? This is just a cynical exercise in branding.

And _then_, they are only making 5,000 of them, so that the price is high, and
(unlike other older models, like the X220) they won't be thick on the ground
in a few years for parts.

------
CryoLogic
I bought the original S431 thinkpad with hybrid graphics for about $1500 when
it came out. At the time I was a university student, and had saved for maybe 6
mos on my part time job to purchase it.

The original s431 had heat issues that came from the graphics card inside of
it's slim body. The graphics card would actually heat up hot enough to melt
the laptop. When people figured this out Lenovo pulled it off of the market
(it was only sold for 1 month).

The bottom of my laptop melted when I was gaming one day, before I knew this
was an issue. The keyboard also stopped working. I called about it to see if I
could replace it but they said they where not servicing it unless I had a
warranty.

So even though it was a manufacturer defect, they would not service my laptop.
They said they would sell me a new keyboard for $200 and I could install it
myself. So I did.

Turns out the keyboard cable that attaches to the motherboard was also melted.
The new keyboard did nothing.

Fuck lenovo. I will never purchase from a company with that terrible of
customer support again.

Edit: The laptop also shipped with a bunch of faulty drivers, and because the
HDD was some custom lenovo hybrid drive instead of a standard drive you could
not wipe the drive and reinstall windows.

------
happycube
I don't think the 940MX is worth the TDP - if they moved that to the CPU
there'd be enough to put in a 35W quad-core CPU, which even in 8th gen would
be a nice boost.

A lie7 with 940MX really isn't going to age well at all :(

edit: And the T470P looks like a much nicer base for this. The base (real
quad-core i5) config pumped up to $1250 is a better machine! _sigh_

------
fzn
Anybody got a list of the countries where it's going to be available? (I'm
tired of refreshing pages)

------
midgetjones
This is extremely interesting to me. So much about those machines make them
perfect for dev.

~~~
tosstossy
If it's the keyboard you're attracted to, x230s can be picked up for ~200$,
and the x220 classic keyboard+palmrest bolt right on. My x230 has an i7
w/16GiG and msata ssd for a whole lot less money than this retro thinkpad.

~~~
vesrah
Can you put a decently bright 1920x1080 display in that, or buy one as
configured?

~~~
ct0
Yes you can.
[https://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=122640](https://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=122640)

------
blackaspen
I like that it comes with NVidia graphics -- that doesn't look like something
you can get on a T470. The price point, while expensive, is still much better
than I thought it'd be (I was thinking well over $2000).

~~~
solatic
If you need the horsepower, you can get a T4XXp. 940MX is already somewhat
outdated and will age quickly, for people who do need the horsepower.

nVidia graphics mean poorer libre graphics driver support on Linux, compared
to Intel graphics drivers, not to mention the battery hit. If you're a
developer looking to buy a programming workhorse, Intel graphics are a better
choice.

------
warrenm
And here I was hoping for a 3" thick laptop with a 1024x768 11" screen

~~~
s0rce
Grab a roll of tape, tape off most of the screen and use the rest of the tape
to attach a brick to the bottom. Done.

------
Zak
The huge bezel under the screen looks ridiculous. It should be filled with
more screen. I like the keyboard, but this doesn't bring back most of what I
love about oldschool thinkpads.

------
walkingolof
I was really hoping for a 4:3 aspect ratio, the golden ratio for
developers.....this is just very disappointing ...

------
eugeneionesco
Expensive and hard to get in Europe :(

------
chaoticmass
Most of my actual 'work' I need a laptop for (remote stuff over SSH, testing
web apps in a browser) is still handled just fine by my x41.

------
jonbaer
If only it had the butterfly keyboard ...
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ThinkPad_Butterfly_keyboar...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ThinkPad_Butterfly_keyboard)

------
mamon
They can't "go retro", their laptops never stopped looking retro :)

------
MichaelGG
So just some cutesy styling on a T470p, which seems underwhelming. Was hoping
for 3:2 and something a bit more rugged which would also help with heat. The
T470p and X270 have terrible reviews on heat.

~~~
chx
Erm, nope. It's a T470 not a T470p.

~~~
MichaelGG
Hmm if they manage to put in a GPU and keep it from overheating it'd be worth
considering I suppose.

------
macawfish
I have an x230t and it's amazing. Core i5, SSD and 16 GB RAM. Plus it has a
touch screen with a pressure sensitive pen.

It was like $1200 less than all these computers people are talking about here.

~~~
NikolaNovak
Nice laptop, but unless I'm mistaken, based on google image search, it has
exactly none of the features people are interested in T25 for - the keyboard
is the modern design, with no separation between function keys, and no
Insert/Home/Delete/End quadrant.

I have a T450 which work gave me sitting in the closet - it's also perfect,
but I can't get used to its keyboard, and am using my personal T420 and T420s
instead. Personal preference :)

~~~
DerfNet
you can swap x230/t430 to the x220/t420 keyboard, for what it's worth.

sticking point to me on the X220/230 is that 1366x768 screen, but I believe
the X230 can be upgraded to 1080p.

~~~
zokier
I have an x240, which is okayish otherwise, but I'm quite annoyed that it is
the model they decided to try dropping mouse buttons. x230 _and_ x250 both
have them, but of course x240 had to be the one I got.

------
plg
does it work with linux?

~~~
reirob
This is my first question too. Went to the shop, but it looks that it's only
available with NVidia and maximum 16GB RAM. I need optimal Linux compatibility
and more RAM (have 20GB now and reaching limits). I'm disappointed, because I
have to replace my 450s and absolutely wanted the keyboard of Thinkpad 25. I
hope there will be the option to buy it with an Intel graphics card and add
RAM. Does anybody know more?

------
nickysielicki
I do not understand why they're still putting GPUs in laptops under 17". Sell
me an external thunderbolt 3 GPU for the rare occasion where I need a GPU, use
the space you save for something else.

The difference between entry-level to mid-tier mobile GPUs and Intel's
integrated graphics is too small to justify carrying it around with you 24/7.

GPUs are the new DVD drive.

~~~
khedoros1
I don't want something as large as 17 inches, and having purchased a machine
without discrete graphics, I'm kind of regretting it.

> GPUs are the new DVD drive.

Coincidentally, I'm also missing the ethernet jack and internal blu-ray drive
that my last laptop had. Dongles and external hardware _suck_. They make the
whole experience of using the machine more awkward and less streamlined.

~~~
zokier
Optical drives are really a niche item these days, dropping it is
understandable, especially considering the disproportionate space requirements
of a drive. But ethernet, that is something I don't want to lose. Not because
I can't get internet otherwise, but for getting access to restricted networks,
or some quick troubleshooting etc.

------
diggernet
Any guesses on Linux compatibility?

~~~
tejohnso
My guess would be very compatible, except perhaps for the fingerprint reader.

[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T470s](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T470s)

~~~
zokier
It has nvidia graphics though, that does not bode well

~~~
compuguy
You could always just disable the discrete graphics card...

~~~
reirob
Does it mean that the Thinkpad 25 has two graphics cards?

~~~
4ad
The Intel GPU is in the CPU, so yeah, it has two GPUs.

Unfortunately, if it's like other ThinkPads I think the HDMI output requires
the discrete GPU.

~~~
reirob
Thank you for the reply. So it would be possible to use it without the nvidia
card, but then connecting to an external monitor will not work. that's sad,
but I rarely work with external monitors.

Looked up on different forums and people had quite some trouble with Linux and
nvidia cards, so I'm really not convinced.

I've read as well on reddit [1] that the key travel is actually less than on
the classic and newer chicklet style keyboards. Will wait until people report
how the typing experience is with this keyboard. I don't care about the looks,
but the typing experience is really important, because I'm spending all the
time on the keyboard and though I love my T450s, I have to say that it's far
from the IBM Thinkpad keyboards (although it's seems one of the best for
modern laptops).

I'm still not decided.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/74drfl/thinkpad_2...](https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/74drfl/thinkpad_25_discussion_thread_release_oct_5/dny69of/)

------
tedwasright
Just bought this to replace my aging mbp. Should I run windows 10 or go with
Mint?

~~~
Stratoscope
My suggestion is to stick with Windows 10 and turn on the Windows Subsystem
for Linux. That gives you an Ubuntu command line userland running inside
Windows. Then if you have any more specific Linux needs, use virtual machines
to install any Linux distribution you want.

~~~
diggernet
Friend of mine does this. All well and good, if you like working primarily in
Windows. I prefer Linux as my primary OS, so this approach is rather less than
ideal for me.

------
dingo_bat
WTF the logo is upside down! How could they have fucked _that_ up?

