

The FreedMan Chair - A better way to sit. - ericmsimons
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/929020713/the-freedman-chair-a-better-way-to-sit

======
freedmanchair
Hey Everyone, Simon Freedman here. The retailers told us we should pitch them
at $2K! Eric is right, I'd love to bring the price down. If I can make them
cheap enough for schools to buy that would be great, but we've got to go
high(ish) to start. Also, we want to make a low -price wheelchair. I've been
talking to the President of the International Paralymic Committee and am very
excited about the possibilities!

Pravda, please contact me about that bullshit detector. I'm applying for my
PhD course at the University of Huddersfield. Do you think we've evolved to
the point were we're meant to farm or sit? That's 10k years of agricultural
life and 15-20 years of widespread computer use...I'd be really happy to talk
more if anyone has questions. Getting late over here in London though. Back in
the am...

~~~
Mithaldu
I'm not pravda, but my bullshit detector is going off too. I'm even willing to
tell you why.

Your kickstarter campaign contains 90% marketing fluff copy, with a small
section on what your chair is supposed to do. However, it only claims to do
things, instead of explaining in detail how the chair does things; it doesn't
compare postures and such between "normal" office chairs and your chair; it
doesn't cite any papers on effects; it doesn't cite any studies on effects of
even similar products.

You throw out a massive promise and ask a bunch of nerds to take you on faith.
That's not going to work.

Lastly, chairs and other sitting implements have been around for at the very
least 6700 years, so please be precise in what you talk about:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CucuteniNeolithicChair.JPG](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CucuteniNeolithicChair.JPG)

Addendum: I _want_ to believe you. I _want_ to have a chair that actively
makes me healthy, because i know my current sitting work makes me unhealthy.
So please take this to mean that you need to do a _much_ better job at
explaining and proving how your product does this, not that i wish you to go
away.

~~~
vinceguidry
> That's not going to work.

Obviously it did work, They're 80% of the way there after only a week.

~~~
Mithaldu
You're right. I was trying to express an idea that is not easily expressed and
did so clumsily. In a more verbose manner, i was thinking that he can't post
something like that and not expect some people to be highly sceptical of the
validity of his claims.

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pravda
My bullshit detector is going 'ting..ting..ting..'

Speaking of magic chairs, I remember when the kneeling chair was all the rage.
Whatever happened to the kneeling chair?

Oh, I guess they are still out there: [http://www.ebay.com/bhp/kneeling-
chair](http://www.ebay.com/bhp/kneeling-chair)

~~~
zokier
Wikipedia article for kneeling chairs seems quite positive:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneeling_chair#Academic_studies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneeling_chair#Academic_studies)

There is even one 2012 study quoted there.

So I'd say that lack of popularity/adaptation is not really a good measure of
the quality of the product, ie just because the trend passed doesn't mean that
there wasn't real improvement in there.

~~~
xmonkee
If people don't find it comfortable enough to use its really not a very useful
idea. Like the standing tables. Okay it works, but I still want to sit on a
comfy chair.

~~~
zokier
It is useful for people who already have experienced backpains and are willing
to sacrifice bit of comfyness to gain long-term comfort.

------
clumsysmurf
This chair is expected to sell in retail for $1,300 USD.

It would be nice if someone could produce an innovative but affordable
solution for the 'rest of us' working poor, since we have to sit also for long
periods of time.

~~~
ericmsimons
Agreed - I wouldn't be surprised if this is the creator's grand strategy
though. Sell the first premium version at a high price to help cover the
initial costs, then build more affordable versions once the majority of R&D
has been completed. Very much like Tesla's strategy.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Except Tesla hasn't built an affordable car yet. You could argue the same for
Dyson's vacuum cleaners, which are still premium devices much more expensive
than regular vacuums.

~~~
ericmsimons
Originally stated by Elon Musk:

 _1\. Build sports car

2\. Use that money to build an affordable car

3\. Use that money to build an even more affordable car

4\. While doing above, also provide zero emission electric power generation
options_

Tesla is on schedule with their strategy; they obviously can't just jump from
step 1 to 3. We'll see if they can move from step 2 to 3, but their success
from 1 to 2 is super promising IMO.

This is actually a very common strategy for introducing new technology to the
market. It seems like this strategy was applied for the initial iPhone as
well, as it originally cost $600 (far more than any other phone on the
market). Pretty soon it was $400, and then after a generation or two, you
could purchase one for $200.

~~~
subsystem
The iphone is a poor example as the original wasn't carrier subsidized. There
were a number of phones that unsubsidized were just as expensive as the
original iphone. The cheapest unlocked iphone you can buy today is still $450.

------
freedmanchair
Hey Pallandt,

Apologies for the delayed reply. Our Kickstarter launch has been nuts. The
FreedMan Chair is a paradigm shift in sitting theory. Osteopathy in the Uk is
a real medical science with a four-year full-time course and in the US the
study results in Osteopaths being Doctors. I myself have been an osteopath for
26 years and have dedicated 18 years to the study of sitting ergonomics and
chairs. My Phd thesis at is "We are not meant to sit" and my PhD supervisor,
an international authority on ergonomics and spinal research considers me one
of the most knowledgable people in the world when it comes to sitting
ergonomics. I disagree about your idea that the best way to prevent back pain
is to exercise. Sure exercise is great but there's actually very little robust
evidence to show the best way to do it to prevent low back pain. This is a
good paper to start with
[http://www.backpaineurope.org/web/files/WG2_Guidelines.pdf](http://www.backpaineurope.org/web/files/WG2_Guidelines.pdf)

To be honest I think The FreedMan Chair may well help you with your back
problems. Someone could buy both a cheaper chair and an exercise bike too, but
this seems a bit excessive. I am working on a quadruple blinded randomised
controlled trial of the chair, but this is a long and expensive process-we'll
get there. And, yes I'd agree that most of the claims other chairs make are
nonsense. Your bed and the chair you spend many hours sitting on should be the
most expensive pieces of furniture you own. You really do get what you pay for
and this is the most sophisticated chair in the world...and considering that
it's reall not expensive. I'll get to cheaper versions but this is as cheap as
we can get he first one.

This is a true, real-life disruptive technology.

I've dedicated 26 years of my life to looking after people and improving their
lives. Sometimes people do things because they truly desire and believe they
can make the world a better place.

Best wishes,

Simon

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doctorfoo
Interesting, I'm in the market for a new chair. However, I've read even
standing for long periods can give similar back pain (I've experienced this
myself), with regular _movement_ being the optimal thing to do all day. So
what's the truth? Will this chair really solve my back pain?

I'm so tempted, but that's a lotta money for this starving coder.

------
LogicX
Backed. Eager to see innovation in the sitting market. When I worked for ITA
Software we had an ergonomic consultant available, and it took half a dozen
chairs until we found one that worked for me. After I left I tried without the
chair for a few months, and back pain persisted. Ended up buying the chair (
[http://lx.tc/chair](http://lx.tc/chair) \- note: Amazon referral link ) for
myself, and things have been pretty good since.

But I still believe things can be better. I see colleagues struggle, going
between standing desks, different chairs, seeing massage therapists. As a
nation many jobs are shifting to knowledge-based work, and people are spending
more time in chairs. We can't leave everyone with back problems as a result.

Even if this ends up not being the ultimate solution, I think its great to see
work and innovation to move things along and encourage others to spend time
looking for answers.

~~~
Zaheer
I'll be the brave soul who clicks the link. The chair is called:

Sprinkle-Black Global Total Office Stamina+ 24 Hour Office Chair with High
Back and Posture-Tilter

------
martin-adams
This is very hard to judge without trying one out. Are there any testimonials
of people who have used this for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week? I need a new
chair and anything over £150 will be a serious decision for me.

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vonskippy
Probably not the best criteria to judge a posture perfect chair - but boy is
that thing fugly. Throw in the outrageous retail price and I'm guessing it
will be a hard sell.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
You're right, that is a completely ridiculous criterion.

~~~
robotresearcher
No it's not. A chair is one of the largest objects in the room. You and others
will see it a lot. It's completely reasonable to consider its appearance.

------
freedmanchair
I should also add that our kickstarter campaign
[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/929020713/the-
freedman-c...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/929020713/the-freedman-
chair-a-better-way-to-sit) has raised over $390k and you just 7 days to save
$800 on the future retail price. I hope you get one. Cheers, Simon

------
jotm
I always wondered whether a chair that would put you into an almost lying
position would be best for your health - I believe you could easily fight
sleepiness, while the reduced load on your back and knees would make it
possible to work very long hours with minimal health effects...

Kind of like the Emperor 1510 - maybe we could team up to develop something
like this :-)

~~~
pedalpete
Being prone for an extended period of time isn't good either. The problem is
that your musculature does some of the work to keep everything aligned. If
you're not using the muscles in your back and hips to keep you somewhat
upright (which even a regular chair does to some extend), then you are letting
those muscles atrophy even more. You don't want to be completely cradled for
extended periods of time.

~~~
jotm
Interesting - what if you combined it with regular exercise?

Right now I'm sitting and my upper body is supported only by the lower back
(arms on the armrests, hands on the keyboard tray). It's comfortable, except
my back starts to hurt after sitting for hours at end (so I stretch/exercise
once in a while).

Which is why I believe a lying position would be more comfortable...

~~~
pedalpete
You should be doing regular exercise anyway, but I think the greatest damage
in lying all day is done to the small support muscles. These muscles (like
your abs) are design for a constant level of moderate engagement, like
walking, and sitting does engage these muscles to a moderate degree,
particularly if you are sitting 'properly'.

As a comparison, I'm thinking of the difference between slouching in a chair
vs. sitting up. If we mapped these on a scale of what is best for you, I'd say
that lying down is probably better than slouching, but sitting up is going to
be best.

These are just my thoughts, I'm not a doctor or physiotherapist.

------
alexhomer1
If you missed it, the "animation" video is spectacular:

[http://vimeo.com/74490099#](http://vimeo.com/74490099#)

I've been looking into creating a video for my own project and after looking
at dozens of ways to do it this one was hilarious.

------
hcarvalhoalves
This is interesting use case for Kickstarter. It's the kind of product that
would normally be _very hard_ to find an investor to, questions would be
raised about market acceptance of a chair so different, or not being backed by
a famous design studio but rather a physician.

~~~
mprovost
Just to clarify, in the UK osteopaths aren't physicians. Osteopathy is pretty
clearly in the alternative healthcare camp.

------
donatzsky
Damn, I'll have to see if I can convince someone to give it to me as an early
Christmas present. I really need a new chair, and this looks like just the one
for me.

They'll even give you a full refund, if you don't like it.

------
kukla
"We have only been sitting for the last 150 years." Yeah, right...

~~~
freedmanchair
I know, it's taken me an age to reply, but our launch has been nuts
[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/929020713/the-
freedman-c...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/929020713/the-freedman-
chair-a-better-way-to-sit)

Yes, most of us really spent very little time sitting up to 150 years ago.
Around the world approx. 10k years ago societies turned agricultural. Having a
'farmers' physique meant, better farmer, more food, more surviving kids,
passing on of useful characteristics. So I think we have farming phsiques, and
you're definately too young to remember, but I for one didn't have email til
2000! Convinced?

~~~
freedmanchair
Hey Everyone,

Many thanks for the comments. Apologies, for another delayed response. We're
approaching $500K for our Kicstarter with 40(ish) hrs to go. WE'll end up top
20 in design, to date.

Here are some responses. Mmm, I guess there something that makes you guys,
err, just a touch critical. I think we need to organise a testing group of you
guys for the Quadruple-blinded Randomised Controlled Trial, that I am working
on for my PhD at Huddersfield University in the Spinal Research unit there, we
estimate 3yrs to do a good job, (before anyones scepto-meter goes off I'm sure
most of you know what quadruple blinded is aiming at but please google if
not). Sometimes they let osteopaths to University in even if they are a bit
alternative. Maybe I should call myself a doctor like chiropractors do, as
that will give me a lot more credibility. You really think so???

Ok, bit cross there, apologies.

Mithaldu, Jeez! Marketing fluff, clumsy..woah.

You'll find my website if you google and I give a smattering of papers there
to get people started. Doing a Phd means that you have to know more about your
subject than anyone else in the world. You are creating new knowledge and it
is the most awesome feeling. There's a picture of a cucetani chair in the
beginning of my animation. I thought mine was from 7.5k ago, but will check.
I'd imagine there were others before that but that's the earliest I know of.

Mezzopiano, Thanks for the great questions.

sitting balls- 1. No height adjustment 2. Good for core work out, but all day
long? 3. People look a bit of a plonker sitting on one...

We can make polymers last for a long, long time now, too long in most cases.
How long do you think the fabric ones last?

I've been assiduously avoiding 'selling' The FreedMan Chair. I've just tried
to tell the story in the best way I can and asked people make up their minds.
I'm saying the world is round guys. If you can't see that you're living on a
flat one...

I really hope you come along for the ride and give it a go.

Cheers,

Simon

