
Official support for Windows 10 on ARM development - sohkamyung
https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2018/11/15/official-support-for-windows-10-on-arm-development/
======
coder543
Is Visual Studio going to be available in an ARM native format? I understand
you can emulate x86 applications on Windows On ARM, but it would be nice if
they provided a native performance experience.

I also feel like Microsoft and Apple are both doing cool stuff with the ARM
space... but it would be cooler together. The iPad Pro is incredible, but iOS
is so limiting. Windows 10 on ARM seems nice, but none of the hardware seems
compelling, and no one makes a mobile ARM chip that's even remotely
competitive with the A12X.

Since Apple is never going to let Windows 10 run on their iPad Pro, the least
they could do is bring Xcode, Terminal, and external storage support to iPad
Pro... but who knows if that's going to ever happen.

~~~
npunt
It looks like Xcode on iPad is probably happening based on some hires they've
been doing. iOS 13 is also going to be a big update for iPad. Seems they're on
an every other year release cycle for big iOS iPad updates - 9 introduced
multitasking, 11 introduced big UI changes, and now lots of 13 rumors. I'd
look at this year's new iPad hardware as a sign that they're serious about
iPad as the next computing paradigm and are putting a lot of effort behind
making the platform suitable for a variety of professionals.

~~~
bluescrn
Can they really build an Xcode for iOS while sandboxing apps and refusing to
expose the underlying file system?

(Would your app icons, for example, be forced to live in your iOS photo
stream, as it’s the only way to share images between apps? What about non-
image data files?)

Even if those issues can be addressed, iOS native UI is completely and utterly
touch-centric, designed for fat fingers on small screens - and so far, nobody
has really succeeded in building feature-rich professional software with high-
complexity UIs within that paradigm.

Also, most developers demand multiple monitors as well as the precision of a
keyboard and mouse... who would be the audience for XCode-on-iOS?

~~~
coder543
> Can they really build an Xcode for iOS while sandboxing apps and refusing to
> expose the underlying file system?

I think that's kind of the point. Apple is going to eventually have to give
certain classes of users more freedom if they want to see the iPad Pro adopted
as a _Pro_ platform.

 _Consistently,_ every single major review I read or watched for the iPad Pro
berated Apple about this. The Verge, Engadget, MKBHD, and many others.
Reviewers _are not_ just letting Apple get away with this. Apple is going to
have to open this up, even though some people like to believe they're never
going to do that for some reason.

> most developers demand multiple monitors as well as the precision of a
> keyboard and mouse

iOS already has great keyboard support, and with the USB-C port on the iPad
Pro, you can literally plug it into a USB-C dock and instantly have an
external monitor, keyboard, and more connected, and yes, the monitor can show
different content, it doesn't have to mirror the internal iPad display.

The iPad Pro's keyboard folio case is really great. I think it's actually a
slightly _more pleasant_ typing experience than what Apple's current
generation Butterfly keyboards offer on their laptops.

Mouse support is another thing that reviewers have harped on Apple for.
Whether they will support that at an OS-level or not is honestly more
questionable than whether they're going to open up the underlying file system
to advanced users, in my opinion.

> who would be the audience for XCode-on-iOS?

\- Developers who like portability.

\- Developers who like powerful hardware. (considering the iPad Pro is easily
more powerful than the new MacBook Air and many of the MacBook Pros)

\- Developers who like a great display... that 120Hz Liquid Retina display is
really fantastic.

\- Developers who enjoy long battery life.

\- iOS Developers who want to save money. (an iPad Pro _is_ cheaper than a
MacBook, although not by as much as it should be)

Which developers _wouldn 't_ be interested in a _professional-grade_ iPad Pro,
given the list above? Unfortunately, Apple hasn't released such an iPad Pro
yet, due to software limitations.

~~~
ascii_only
I have heard argument that MacOS is great for development because it is Unix-
like so you have proper shell but it is much more polished than Linux.

Wouldn't iOS without shell be much less suitable for development especially
for anything that not apple specific for example web development?

~~~
coder543
Quoting myself from the top of this comment chain:

> the least they could do is bring Xcode, Terminal, and external storage
> support to iPad Pro

I think a virtual terminal is a necessary piece here, which implies a Unix
shell.

~~~
ascii_only
Do you think they give ability to install necessary tools? If not what the
point of terminal? Or provided minimum of basic tools will be good enough for
most developers?

~~~
coder543
If you're going to have a full IDE where you can write and compile code that
Apple has never seen, it makes sense that developers would be able to download
and run unsigned binaries inside the terminal for development purposes.

Attempting to arbitrarily differentiate between unreviewed code that you're
writing and running versus unreviewed code someone else wrote that you're
running would be a strange line to draw in the sand.

If they somehow decide to provide Xcode but don't provide a terminal at all,
that would obviously be very limiting.

------
bhauer
Now please get an ARM Windows Andromeda device release ready. I need a new
option in the mobile space and I would happily use one that is a full computer
in the form factor of a phone.

~~~
MrMember
I've been waiting for such a device for years and it looks like we're finally
getting closer to it happening. Between Samsung's Linux on Dex, the Librem 5
hopefully next year, and the ever-present rumors of Microsoft's Andromeda
device it might actually happen.

~~~
bhauer
Agreed. If Microsoft doesn't come through with Andromeda, the Librem 5 is my
backup plan.

------
joenathanone
One of the most interesting things about this is the reintroduction of a
concern for non store apps. The new app model for Windows is a failure, there
isn't a app developed using the new model that can match anything developed
using the "old".

~~~
titanix2
I noticed the same exact thing. It's nice Microsoft finally see that its
UWP/Store thing is a failure and start supporting the good old way instead of
persisting to force developers using something they don't want.

~~~
pjmlp
Quite the opposite, I guess you haven't been paying attention to the developer
sessions.

They are building the infrastructure to place Win32 apps inside the same
sandbox model as UWP, to the point they can share the same container model.

Project Centipede and Desktop Brige were the first steps, the most recent one
is the new MSIX package format.

[https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/sgern/2018/06/18/a-closer-l...](https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/sgern/2018/06/18/a-closer-
look-at-msix/)

[https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/MSIX-Blog/MSIX-
Packag...](https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/MSIX-Blog/MSIX-Packaging-
Tool-Preview-is-now-available-from-the-Microsoft/ba-p/216204)

------
boznz
maybe we can get windows phone back.. I miss mine :-(

~~~
pjmlp
My secondary phone is a Lumia 630, just got an update yesterday.

As for my Android devices, well at least they still get app updates.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
I have a 640 as a backup, it's a really great phone. Amazing that they're
still getting updates after all these years.

~~~
WorldMaker
I still use a 950 as daily driver, because if it isn't broke, don't fix it.
Certainly the app situation is starting to hurt lately, but I haven't
convinced myself I have enough need to pay for a new device yet. (My "new
shiny" gadget budget has been needed for other things.)

As long as it keeps getting security updates, I don't feel a rush to buy a new
phone. But yeah, I realize I'm an ugly duckling at this point every time some
business starts a conversation with "Have you tried our app yet? Why don't you
download our app?"

------
msh
Is it possible to develop x86 apps from a windows arm laptop?

~~~
DennisAleynikov
windows Arm64 laptops and tablets support some x86 emulation but still are
primarily Arm Machines

~~~
msh
So is that a no/maybe/yes

~~~
zamadatix
"Depends on what you mean exactly". You can cross compile x86 apps from any
architecture you can run the compiler. If you expect to also run them on the
local device then it still depends on more detail of what it is you mean by
x86 development. 64 bit x86 emulation still isn't supported so you wouldn't be
able to run apps compiled in such a fashion. Drivers/kernel level stuff is not
part of the application emulation layer so would not work. Other than that, it
would most likely work (albeit slowly).

------
dan3423
what is interesting about this is that maybe this is an opportunity for
flutter and dart to take off a bit more, it compiles to ARM.

~~~
finchisko
I wouldn't bet my future on flutter nor dart. flutter in my eyes is pathetic
attempt to give dart some meaning, after it failed to compete with other
compile-to-js languages like typescript (and now wasm). Came too late. Solved
some problems that cordova and react-native have, but brought new ones. You
need to learn new language, ui is not aligned with the system or other apps,
you rely on flutter components only, which are more difficult to write than
react-native's (mostly just simple wrappers)...

------
ngcc_hk
The end of Intel is near?

~~~
bluescrn
Not while ARM is synonymous with ‘locked down, dumbed down, and touch-centric’

~~~
pjmlp
The PC clone market was a side effect of a strategy mistake from IBM.

Apple, Atari, Amiga, Acorn were quite different.

~~~
bluescrn
A beautiful mistake that led to an open and competitive PC market. While
Windows dominated, the availability of PC hardware allowed the growth of
Linux, too.

And I’m saying that as somebody who was a huge Amiga fan back in the day, and
moved quite reluctantly to PCs after that.

Any new platform these days is likely to be user-hostile: locked down, tied to
a monopolistic App Store, disallowing development without special permission,
and abusing secure boot tech to lock out alternative operating systems.

So we should be fighting to keep the traditional Intel-based PC alive, as
we’re unlikely to see anything like it again!

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
I totally agree with what you're saying, but sadly I don't think the average
user actually cares about these issues.

