
Self-Driving Ubers Driving in Bike Lanes - driverlessnick
https://driverlessratings.com/news/self-driving-ubers-crossing-bike-lanes
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bdonlan
This is, in fact, correct behavior: [http://www.sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-
and-right-turns/](http://www.sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/)

If turning traffic doesn't enter the bike lane, then it is turning right
across the bike lane, which can lead to accidents where a bike collides with a
turning vehicle. As such the correct behavior is to signal and enter the bike
lane before turning. Of course, many human drivers fail to do this, so it's
not surprising that people might be taken aback when they see self driving
cars doing it...

~~~
ricardobeat
Only in California, apparently.

I was curious and checked the Dutch regulations - in NL it's an infraction to
'wait' on a cycle lane for any reason. Cars turning across the path just give
way to all traffic coming from behind until it's safe to move. It is very
stressful for the driver, but blocking the cycle path is a recipe for chaos.

~~~
tehlike
"blocking the cycle path is a recipe for chaos" I think california has the
right rule here, the driver cannot constantly monitor what's coming from
behind when making a turn, especially when most cyclists are almost invisible
from side mirrors. Blocking the path for a safety-critical maneuver would
certainly help.

~~~
Doxin
> the driver cannot constantly monitor what's coming from behind when making a
> turn

Correct, which is why the common style of crossing is pretty much a death trap
for cyclists. A much safer design moves the cyclist crossing so cyclists and
cars only ever meet at 90 degree angles[0]. Doing so takes no extra space.

[0]
[http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6Kg0XZ0K-3U/Uv98VQ-H6lI/AAAAAAAARK...](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6Kg0XZ0K-3U/Uv98VQ-H6lI/AAAAAAAARKs/XE1Ue0RIIGw/s1600/markjunctionmockup.jpg)

~~~
bbarn
What is functionally different about that illustration other than the cyclist
having to make odd movements when going straight - which would be incredibly
confusing to oncoming cars turning left?

~~~
Doxin
the "odd movement" isn't something a car driver has to deal with at all. As a
driver you turn right, and _after_ completing the turn you're faced with a
cycle path where a simple look to the right will be plenty to check for
cyclists. It's basically splitting a complex intersection into two simpler
intersections.

~~~
bbarn
[https://imgur.com/a/H0tEZ](https://imgur.com/a/H0tEZ)

This is what I mean. If in a car you want to turn left, the cyclist appears to
be heading right, by then veers to stay straight. Otherwise, you need
dedicated turning left lanes, with turning arrows - something most cities
can't fit on existing streets.

These sorts of "reimagined" street intersections always end up being
impractical with only a little bit of scrutiny applied. What's practical (from
the point of view of someone who's biked to work every day in an urban
environment for 15 years) is the bike lane turning into "shared" before the
intersection, and the solid white bike lane line turning dotted with
indications marking that before the intersection. Every attempt at enforced
separation just ends up being less safe for all parties involved.

The key is sensible lane sharing and maintaining a common feel and look of
intersections throughout a city. No cyclist, or driver needs to question what
to do at various experimental intersections, and yet we continue to do things
like that in urban centers using people as test subjects.

~~~
ricardobeat
You're imagining it happening at an unreal pace. This is really close to what
most large intersections in the Netherlands look like. The shoulders for the
cycle lane are actually behind the curb, and for a cyclist still feel like
'going straight'. If I'm not mistaken, this is even known as a "dutch
junction".

This video explains it well:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bG6ZrbCO2g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bG6ZrbCO2g)

~~~
bbarn
No vehicle in that video was shown turning left.

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TheCoelacanth
Apparently about a year ago they were getting complaints about exactly the
opposite behavior:
[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/12/19/uber_selfdriving_ca...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/12/19/uber_selfdriving_car_and_bikes/)

They can't seem to win with this one.

~~~
greglindahl
Given that different states have different laws, and in both cases the Uber
car was violating the local state law, ... no, they aren't winning.

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killbot5000
Aren't you supposed to do that? It gives the bikers heads up to slow or
navigate to the left of the vehicle turning right. Otherwise the chance for
collision is higher when the vehicle suddenly cuts off the bikers during its
turn.

Edit: image from sf bicycle coalition. [http://www.sfbike.org/wp-
content/uploads/2013/02/Right-Turn....](http://www.sfbike.org/wp-
content/uploads/2013/02/Right-Turn.jpg)

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btbuildem
As many others pointed out, this is the correct behaviour.

As a driver, I make sure to leave no space between my car and the curb when I
intend to turn right. This reduces the chances of a cyclist sneaking through
on the right.

As a cyclist, I make sure to pass vehicles on their left, whether they are
turning right, or stuck in slow traffic. It is safer, because very few people
expect to be passed on the right.

(locale settings: North America)

~~~
odiroot
The behaviour you describe is AFAIR illegal in Germany. Bicycle lane is
exactly that, just another lane. And it has right of way. If you need to turn,
you wait until you're free to do it.

~~~
bo1024
It seems strange to me to require that people turn from an outside lane across
a lane that goes straight. As a cyclist, this is one of my biggest constant
fears. I think I feel safer if drivers have to merge into my lane first, then
turn from my lane. Unfortunately in practice where I live in the US, most
drivers aren't safe and don't look no matter which way they do it.

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digitalpacman
This is correct behavior in lots of places. It's safer for when turning right
to have a biker wait for you to turn. They have no right to "go first" unless
they are already in the lane beside you or in front.

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cjhanks
I have been a regular biker in a few major cities. Frankly the only rule I was
aware of was "try not to die, try not kill anyone".

I'm not sure most people know what the correct action is with a bike lane in
the right-most lane. On a bike, I assume I will go left of the right-turning
car. In a car, I usually assume the bike will just have right-of-way and I
wait.

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andrei_says_
I could use a clarification about expected driver behavior when turning right
in the presence of a bike lane.

And I need to acknowledge my internal reaction of judging this as one more
“Uber-villain” style rule. Uner-corrupted, Uber-unscrupulous, uber-villainous
to be more precise.

Their brand image is firmly established for me.

~~~
jessaustin
Yes that brand name is quite obnoxious. Airbnb might ignore just as many laws,
but at least they have a goofy unpretentious name. The only thing I can think
of like "Uber" except worse might be "Darth".

~~~
andrei_says_
I was referring about the brand established by the criminal behavior of Uber I
read about on regular basis.

What a company says about themselves is PR. How the company is perceived is
Brand.

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bootloop
I saw Googles self-driving car (Waymo) doing exactly that in front of me. It
used the bike lane for a while before turning right. (That was in Mountain
View) Thought thats odd.

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quirkot
Not being prepared for different rules in different states seems like a big
miss.

 _cracks fingers, leans back, sighs_ back to hating on Uber. Everything is in
it's right place

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outlog
try living in a city with good, fully separated, and wide bike paths..
(copenhagen)

some times even normal cars take the bike path -
[https://www.instagram.com/p/g590OCMlGe/](https://www.instagram.com/p/g590OCMlGe/)
\- the car has driven a good 300 meters from one intersection to the next..

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moocowtruck
This is a great time to reflect. Self driving machines thought it made sense
to drive in bike lanes.

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petre
Who gets a ticket or their driving license suspended for self driving vehicle
traffic violations?

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nkkollaw
"In other news, people breath air".

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stevemk14ebr
Some of these comments arguing that it's 'correct' behavior begs the question,
do we want 'correct' or 'predictably expect-able' behavior. What i mean by
that is most people would likely not expect a car to turn into that lane, even
though it is 'correct'. Perhaps instead of following the rules so rigidly it
should SOMETIMES break the rules to do the thing more like a human would,
making it an all together safer system as humans would better be able to
predict it's actions and adjust accordingly.

This of course imposes lots of philosophical problems like which rules can be
broken, and which not.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
What really should happen is for humans to be taught about the correct
behavior. This is a rule that should be enforced rigidly.

Turning across bike lanes instead of from them endangers the lives of
cyclists. Just because most drivers don't care whether cyclists live or die
doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do.

~~~
user5994461
Just because it's the expected behavior in california doesn't make it correct
or right in the rest of the world.

The other comments pointed out that california have dashed lines for bicycle
lanes around intersections. That may be the signal.

