
CRPG Book Released - felipepepe
https://crpgbook.wordpress.com/2018/02/05/update-19-crpg-book-released/
======
mathgeek
> This is the question I’m asked the most: “Will there be a physical
> edition?”. I would love to have one, but it’s something very complicated to
> produce – especially for a 528-page color book! Most on-demand printing
> services won’t do something this big, and even if I cut the book down to
> CreateSpace’s 480-page limit, it would be a VERY expensive book, costing
> over $60!

I think the author is severely underestimating just how much people will pay
for a physical book on this kind of topic. I really hope that they find a way
to get this printed. $60 isn't even nearing what many people interested in
this kind of topic would consider "very expensive."

~~~
felipepepe
But it would be $60 for a softcover CreateSpace version chopped down to 480
pages. Not exactly a premium product. :/

~~~
Al-Khwarizmi
I would happily pay twice that price, or maybe more, for a good-looking
version.

I agree with mathgeek, and would like to encourage you to at least do some
kind of poll based on a quote from a decent printer. I think you would be
pleasantly surprised.

I'm not rich and don't go around throwing $100+ at random whims, but man, we
are talking about an impressive tribute and memory of the games I, and many of
us, love. A good bunch of the games you cover were an enormous influence
during many years in my life (and I still come back to them regularly). It
would be one of the most cherished books in my library. Although I love books,
these years I'm limiting my physical book purchases to three or so a year due
to lack of space, but I would get this one without even a second thought.

I don't want to believe that I live in a world where this book can't get a
physical edition to make it justice. One way or another, it must be done.

PS: in page 79, the caption of the last screenshot of Ultima IV seems wrong. I
think it was miscopied from a screenshot of The Bard's Tale.

------
detuur
Right now I'm playing Divinity: Original Sin 2, and I cannot help feeling that
the timing between this book and the game is just unfortunate. It came out
just too late (or the book just too early?) for it to have a worthy entry in
and a worthy impact on the book, which is a shame. I genuinely consider it a
benchmark achievement. Not only does it set the standard for turn-based
systems and cooperative (or competitive, if you wish) cRPG gameplay, it oozes
good game development which culminates in one of the finest RPGs of the 2010s,
only really rivalled by The Witcher 3. I hope its quality and its mastery of
its mechanics translates into becoming an influence for RPGs to come.

~~~
sparq_beam
Does 2 have huge walls of text like the first one?

When I tried the first one, I was very impressed by the combat system as shown
on the starting tutorial, but as soon as you get to the first city there is
too much dialog. I realize that dialog is part of cRPGs, but when the ratio of
gameplay to dialog is too low, I'd rather read a book.

~~~
detuur
Oh yeah Cyseal was so much conversation and so little doing. While there's
still a lot of dialogue in DOS2, there's a lot less filler now and the balance
has done a healthy shift toward action. Writing in general has been tightened
up with conversations actually being interesting, funny, and a lot of the time
helpful towards solving open quests. Heartily recommend the pet pal perk which
will allow you to talk to animals, since a lot of the time they've got very
clear-cut clues towards your objectives.

------
deckard1
Absolutely amazing. I skimmed through the entire book, and the level of detail
is insane. Now if only I had a 2nd lifetime or immortality to play all of
these games.

I noticed World of Warcraft was missing, which seemed odd at first. But then I
noticed:

> This is our first full release. We’re very proud of it, but we still
> couldn’t add all the games we wanted to cover, and sections on MMORPGs, old
> hardware and developers had to be cut, so hopefully there will be more
> versions in the future.

In case anyone else was wondering.

------
Goladus
On _Eye of the Beholder_ 's incomplete use of the D&D Ruleset:

 _Looking back on that I can imagine that hardcore roleplayers would be
miffed, but to a newcomer like myself it was perfect. I did as the manual
suggested and created a mixed party of four characters that could deal with
whatever dangers lay ahead, knowing that I could recruit two NPCs in-game if
something went wrong._

I don't have the impression that D&D players were particularly miffed about
this. At the time I think it was well-understood that implementing the full
AD&D ruleset, technically and in spirit, presented insurmountable challenges
given the state of technology in the early 90s.

It wans't until Baldur's Gate that any game really managed to blend the
adventuring and combat elements of AD&D into a coherent whole. Don't get me
wrong the Gold Box games are great and in some ways better even than Baldur's
Gate, but the adventure and exploration elements of those games feel bolted on
to the deep 2d tactical combat system. I think one of the reasons Baldur's
Gate became so popular is because it seemed like the game AD&D fans had been
waiting for.

PS congrats on the book release!

------
indescions_2018
From the section on Japanese RPGs, Legend of Zelda entry:

 _Shigeru Miyamoto and his team at Nintendo mixed Hydlide with Xanadu, removed
all the RPG elements and focused on the most important – the call for
adventure._

 _They added an attack button, created a huge world full of secrets, designed
clever dungeons, puzzles and boss battles, made magic items alter gameplay and
got rid of all the time wasting grinding_

Design decisions that resonate today with Breath of the Wild ;)

This book is a stunning achievement. A true labor of love. That I am sure will
provide indelible inspiration for many years to come.

~~~
phaus
>They added an attack button, created a huge world full of secrets, designed
clever dungeons, puzzles and boss battles, made magic items alter gameplay and
got rid of all the time wasting grinding

As a huge Zelda fan, I think they created an amazing, interactive world for
BOTW, but then slapped a bunch of shallow, generic, repetitive, FarCry 3-esque
open-world gameplay on top of it and took out the most interesting part of
previous Zelda games, the Dungeons. The shrines (the meat of the gameplay) are
incredibly boring and unimaginative. The actual content of this game does a
serious disservice to the intricate world and the elaborate, experimental
gameplay mechanics.

There are no clever dungeons and the entire game is a time-wasting grind.

------
dragonwriter
> even if I cut the book down to CreateSpace’s 480-page limit, it would be a
> VERY expensive book, costing over $60!

On Lulu, full-color, US Letter, 528 pages (they support up to 740) standard
paperback with otherwise default options has a $30.39 printing cost, with no
volume discount. Volume will drop that.

~~~
coldacid
For something like this, you don't want paperback. You want a full-sized,
hardcover coffee table book.

Or at least I do. And I'd be willing to drop good money for a copy one it's
been through some proper copyediting.

------
book_mentioned
The History of Computer RPGs |
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14145252](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14145252)
_(Apr 2017)_

>podiki: _There 's also albums on Flickr with 18,000+ images from the games:
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/crpgbook/albums](https://www.flickr.com/photos/crpgbook/albums)
_

------
AdmiralAsshat
An EPUB version would be cool, too. PDF's are kind of a pain to read on
tablets.

Also, if you guys would be willing to throw the "raw" source onto something
like Github, it might be easier to get people to submit proofreading
corrections.

------
ender672
[http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/](http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/)

The author of this blog is in the process of playing every CRPG created since
1975. They discuss strengths & weaknesses, its place in the history of RPGs,
etc.

~~~
overcast
Was it too much to register crpgaddict.com ? :(

~~~
vanderZwan
You realise that for some (if not most) people, even the _idea_ of registering
your own domain sounds like advanced, impossible to understand technical
wizardry, right?

------
justherefortart
Reading about Ultima IV is the difference between generations.

Ultima I and II were a hot mess. Ultima III was remarkable. Ultima IV and V
were mind blowing when I was a kid. If a 19 year old "CoD Player" can't figure
out to RTFM, its their loss.

RPGs aren't easy for a reason, they're supposed to require effort to master
and possibly win. And like life, you don't always win.

Kids today want everything handed to them it seems. I lost interest in games
decades ago because I thought we'd get better versions of Ultima IV as time
went on. Instead we got "interactive" movies for the most part.

Little Johnny wants to be a rock star, but learning guitar is hard. Try this 5
button fake guitar, now you've got talent! So of course mastering the up,
down, left, and right arrows would be hard to figure out. </typical old man
rant>

[https://imgur.com/a/8Psom](https://imgur.com/a/8Psom)

~~~
lghh
Oh buddy, there is so much laughably wrong with how to create usable products
in this.

> If a 19 year old "CoD Player" can't figure out to RTFM, its their loss.

Mechanics in games, much like things in user interfaces should be discoverable
without reading a manual. The actual act of creating a potion or weapon out of
materials or managing your inventory or doing simple combat should not have to
be looked up. The process for creating or doing something _well_ can be
experimental or based on skill, but the physical act of doing the thing should
be easy to understand without reading. This extends beyond games to user
interfaces, tools, or many other things. It's clear what a knife does when you
look at it, getting good at preparing food takes practice.

> Kids today want everything handed to them it seems. I lost interest in games
> decades ago because I thought we'd get better versions of Ultima IV as time
> went on. Instead we got "interactive" movies for the most part.

The CRPG scene is going through a renaissance. Games like DotA and many
fighting games make their objectives clear but take time and strategy and
experimentation to master.

> Little Johnny wants to be a rock star, but learning guitar is hard. Try this
> 5 button fake guitar, now you've got talent! So of course mastering the up,
> down, left, and right arrows would be hard to figure out.

Playing guitar is a life long endeavor. Comparing it to learning the rules of
a single game that you may play for 50 - 100 hours is insane. Nobody thinks
someone playing guitar hero has talent, but they do know they are having fun.

"Back-in-my-day-ism" is a cancer in both the consequential and the
inconsequential, please really think about what you're saying when you spout
it.

~~~
kbutler
> Mechanics in games, much like things in user interfaces should be
> discoverable without reading a manual.

I tend to believe this, too - and am amazed at how Minecraft knowledge
spreads. I don't believe there is any documentation, it all seems to be peer-
to-peer over the web.

I'd love to figure out how to generate the interest that drives the amount of
time and effort kids spend reading and watching about playing the game,
outside of actually playing the game.

------
forvelin
It is good to see a CRPG thread on first page, I wish this genre would get
more attention amongst all those modern console games.

I am also glad to see Planescape: Torment as first, it was popular to spend
time on the question "What can change the nature of a man?" for several pages
in the forums back then.

------
Merem
Happy to see the full release of this. Thanks to everyone that contributed and
a big "thank you" to you that pushed the project along over the years.

(And as I've said back then: If a physical version is possible, I'm highly
interested.)

------
throwawayReply
I'm happy to see it covers _Legend_ , a game of which I have many fond
memories, it was the first RPG I played and sadly highlighted the difference
between my (parents') 386 with PC speaker beeping out the music in off-colour
cga and my friend's 486 full music and good looking VGA.

The game itself is was fun, more than tricky (almost impossible for the 9 or
10 we were at the time) and there aren't many games which combine all it's
best elements. As the book says, the custom spell rune system was a treat.
Creating a spell which shot a missle which exploded and also fired other
missles around it was really fun.

------
camelCaseOfBeer
As a long time fan of CRPGs I look forward to reading your book. I don't mean
to belittle the accomplishment but calling it, "The CRPG Book Project" is kind
of like naming a pet, "The Dog Ownership Project". I mean, for all intents and
purposes it seems like you've outright accomplished writing a book at this
point and it deserves a sassier title than, "Book Project". Just sayin'.

------
jadei
I would definitely pay $60 or more for this. This looks well written and
interesting for learning about games I never played back in the day. Bard's
tale and Ultima 4 were my first crpg's as a teen in the 80's using my
Commodore 64 and 1541 disk drive. I only wish I had the time I had as a
teenager to devote to crpg's again.

------
hielke82
Just a quick skim shows an incredible amount of work and dedication. Great job
and sincere thanks - memories flooding back.

(Print copy - yes!)

------
myrandomcomment
I would love it as a big coffee table book. Would pay $120 no issues. I have
read the blog for years.

------
baud147258
One of the few good things to come out of the hive of scum and villainy that
are the rpgcodex forums.

Thanks felipepepe!

------
bpicolo
Really cool. Definitely hope to see MMORPGs in the future - that's been the
genre for me since my early days. Unfortunately, last 5 years have been
somewhat stale on the front.

------
jbschirtzinger
Cool book. I would be interested in knowing what software was used to make it.

~~~
felipepepe
InDesign :)

------
electricslpnsld
So how many years would it take to complete all of these games?

~~~
Momquist
I have no answer to this question, but various people are revisiting old CRPGs
in a more or less exhaustive manner. My favourite one is crpgaddict who plays
a list of CRPGs in chronological order, with at least 6 hours spent on each
one. He's been at it for a decade now, and his list still isn't finished...

[http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/](http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/)

------
brianpgordon
Very slick. Is the source code available somewhere?

~~~
vanderZwan
Doesn't look like it. Too bad, that would do a lot to help with the
proofreading part he mentions (and from the comments under his blog it looks
like there are a number of enthusiasts who would like to take a stab at
translating too).

------
renton
How can this be a serious list without dcss?

~~~
felipepepe
Check page 350 ;)

------
samwestdev
Kindle version please!

