
Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete Hyper-V on Linux - poisonborz
https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/15/microsoft_submits_linux_kernel_patches/
======
transpute
If this reaches production status (e.g. with a new Hyper-V Hardware
Qualification List and HHQL logo program like WHQL), it could be the biggest
news for Linux since Dell started shipping a laptop with pre-installed Linux.

Such a logo program could provide OEMs with a test suite for Hyper-V with
Linux hardware drivers, which means Microsoft could start contributing test
cases to upstream Linux projects like CKI.

Most importantly, a Hyper-V for Linux logo qualification program could require
that OEM/ODMs pass HHQL _before_ shipping supported hardware, when they still
have engineering resources allocated for system and device firmware fixes.

In short, Hyper-V for Linux has the potential for positive ripple effects
throughout the supply chain for Linux "secured core" hardware. When combined
with WSL2, Direct X paravirtualized graphics for Linux, and Azure Sphere
(based on OpenEmbedded/Yocto), it's a major endorsement for Linux and the
flexibility of Type-1, CPU-assisted virtualization pioneered by open-source
Xen.

The Microsoft Linux license for IoT/embedded devices includes support for 10+
years of security updates, which will hopefully extend OEM firmware support
timelines for edge hardware,
[https://www.platformsecuritysummit.com/2019/speaker/seay/](https://www.platformsecuritysummit.com/2019/speaker/seay/)

 _> This talk will cover ... device security from the chip to the Linux
kernel, user application isolation, network communication, cloud interaction,
and what it takes to keep a system secure for 13 years._

~~~
likesftereppl99
Ok, sure.

Given Xen is battle tested at scale and k8s/etc for microservices, why bother
to learn to manage this?

~~~
transpute
_> why bother to learn to manage this?_

Even if primarily adopted by existing Microsoft customers familiar with
Hyper-V, this would benefit Xen, KVM and any Linux distro running on the same
hardware targets.

If a theoretical HHQL motivates OEMs to prove that Linux drivers work in a
Hyper-V root partition on new hardware, with driver fixes upstreamed to the
Linux mainline kernel, then everyone wins.

There is also ongoing work for nested virtualization, to enable KVM, Xen or
Hyper-V to be a bare-metal (L0) or a nested (L1) hypervisor, e.g. in a cloud
environment where the bare-metal hypervisor cannot be changed by customers.

These interoperability improvements increase hardware support for hypervisors,
which can then compete at multiple architectural layers. Users can choose
based on optimization of the HL0-HL1-VM-App stack which works best for their
specific workload.

------
aunty_helen
>Windows 10 is on a path to becoming a hybrid Windows/Linux system

This sounds promising, something closer to OSX would give apple competition
for devs like myself that want a linux based system and a fluffy "it-just-
works" gui

~~~
severino
So what's wrong with Linux if you want a Linux based system? I don't remember
the last time I got a Linux desktop which didn't "just work"; of course I try
to avoid exotic hardware components, but the truth is that you can run into
driver problems and issues too when running operating systems you pay money
for, like Windows.

~~~
nicoburns
Lack of support for GUI apps such as MS Office, Adobe Creative Suite, etc. It
was actually workable with wine a few years back, but that was before
everything went to an auto-updating subscription model.

~~~
ekianjo
> Lack of support for GUI apps such as MS Office,

not the same but you have Office 365 that does a reasonable job for most
documents out there.

On the other hand, not having Office is kind of a feature, it makes you learn
better tools :)

~~~
arvinsim
> On the other hand, not having Office is kind of a feature, it makes you
> learn better tools :)

I think this kind of attitude is why Linux on the desktop will probably never
be mainstream.

~~~
absove
I don't think this attitude is the reason why Microsoft won't port the Office
suite to linux.

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JamesSwift
Sorry for the ignorance, but what does this mean? I understand from the
article that the patch allows the full Hyper-V stack to run on a linux-based
machine (as opposed to previously needing windows to run the root partition).
But what does _that_ mean to have the ability to run Hyper-V entirely on
linux? Is it just a "good to have options" thing?

~~~
flightllessbird
It allows them to run a bare metal (type 1) hypervisor instead of a VM on top
of Windows.

~~~
quietbritishjim
Hyper-V already is a bare metal (type 1) hypervisor. Admittedly it does use
one (or more) of the guests, called the "parent partition", to handle some of
the work for it. This change allows that parent partition to be Linux instead
of Windows, but it does not make it any more of a bare metal hypervisor than
it was before, unless you know something in addition to what the article says.

------
robbyt
Perhaps Microsoft is finally tired of trying to get Azure working on the
Windows kernel.

Or possibly they need this for ARM VM instances?

~~~
whereistimbo
Perhaps Hyper-V team is already tired dealing with Windows. I mean look at
this quote: "...it takes approximately 16 hours to compile Windows on a 64
cores super fast server-class machine optimized for the job, and with hundreds
of GB of memory, and that time does not include running tests." [0]

[0] [https://www.quora.com/What-do-you-think-about-open-
sourcing-...](https://www.quora.com/What-do-you-think-about-open-sourcing-
Windows-and-getting-rid-of-the-licensing-code/answer/Axel-Rietschin?share=1)

~~~
fomine3
Azure team should use Windows Server Core or similar equivalent for Hypervisor
OS that don't need Desktop features. Minimum Windows is not so much huge.

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morrbo
This is awesome. Although hyperv itself has been great for me, there have been
certain things which have been a royal pain (copying/unzipping a compressed
image, integrating into our monitoring system come to mind) which don't work
with the stripped down windows version they have. I do wonder though, will the
Linux version be backwards compatible with the Microsoft hyper-v console? Or
will there be something similar? It's very nice to be able to fire up a GUI
over a vpn and right click add/configure a new machine.

Similarly with installing new images. If anyone has any insight into any of
this id be really interested to know!

~~~
whereistimbo
Probably they will port necessary library and console apps to Linux version of
PowerShell.

------
a_imho
I know next to nothing about virtualization, are these patches Microsoft
specific, or do they benefit others as well?

~~~
flatiron
HyperV host only runs on Windows.

~~~
whereistimbo
This patch makes it possible to make Linux as HyperV host, or in Xen
terminology, "Dom0"

------
AstralStorm
For me, the show stopper is lack of device forwarding with WSL and WSL2
(HyperV in general) on non-Server versions. Even the Workstation edition does
not support it.

It will be less of a problem once DXGI support lands since it's mostly
required for AI, DSP and video processing work for me, as they require rather
direct access to the GPU.

------
wilt
I don't see what this will do that kvm can't already do? Seems like a wasted
effort.

~~~
arbitrage
it enables hyper-v on linux. the whole point is that it does something
different.

~~~
EdSchouten
So what does it do then?

~~~
rbanffy
I believe the biggest difference is that, unlike KVM, Hyper V causes money to
change hands.

------
fanatic2pope
Interesting. Windows is slowly becoming WorkplaceOS.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_OS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_OS)

------
bugBunny
The only reason I am still using windows is MS office. I might give it a try
myself... My home machine is running Arch linux and works flawlessly for more
then two years already. Just my work is still stucked with a lot of
documentations sharing between some other people and I need MS office programs
which have no alternative in open-source word. well, the office.com looks
promising these days and I hope to switch completely ASAP.

~~~
robbyt
This reads like a Slashdot post from 1998.

~~~
kyuudou
Just needs a "even my grandmother is using KDE seamlessly with her online
banking site"

------
charwalker
My reading is this allows HyperV Server (standalone, free) to be Linux based.

But I could me misunderstanding this as the ability to run HyperV on Linux
baremetal much like Windows 10 with HyperV installed or Windows Server with
HyperV role.

As a Windows guy, I can appreciate this. HyperV Server is already free, though
requires some care and feeding if set up off a domain.

------
yewenjie
What was the status of it so far in Linux?

~~~
jlgaddis
Well, according to TFA, the patches were submitted as an RFC.

Short version: it's not _in_ Linux, this is basically the very first step in
getting it into Linux, it's still gonna be probably several months at least
before it makes it into the mainline kernel, and then however long after that
for it to make it into your distro's kernel.

FWIW, I think it was a little over 3 years from the first "RFC" for Wireguard
until it was merged into mainline (part of that, though, is because some
existing things in the kernel had to be "re-worked" first).

~~~
MawKKe
unrelated: what does TFA mean? someone else used it in another comment

~~~
taftster
[https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TFA](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TFA)

------
desktopninja
>Windows 10 is on a path to becoming a hybrid Windows/Linux system

Sounds like Lindows to me :)

M$, #Make2020GreatAgain. Give us
"[https://www.lindows.rocks](https://www.lindows.rocks)" complete with the
catchy song and Windows 2000 GUI.

------
mongol
If we assume this is technically sound and so on, is there a political
dimension that will be considered before merging this? Such as "this will
decrease Linux marketplace penetration in this-and-this niche"? I know that
Linux is not a company etc so a direct comparison is awkward, but there can
still be such considerations weighing in, perhaps...?

~~~
rbanffy
Anyone who's hosting Hyper-V VMs on Windows can now move to Linux and host
those VMs under the same Hyper-V environment they were before. I'm not sure
how many do this and, frankly, I'm quite surprised Microsoft does it on Azure.

Of course, you can run those same VMs under KVM under a Linux OS, so it's not
some new capability.

------
jacquesm
Just ditch Windows and use Linux directly. That's the fastest way to get Linux
to a higher level, not to use crutches.

