
4chan, a popular hub for offensive posts, shows signs of distress - chatmasta
http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/05/technology/4chan-shutting-down/index.html?iid=ob_homepage_tech_pool
======
btrfsck
I don't think anyone involved in writing, or anyone mentioned in this article
has any idea what 4chan actually represents, with the exception of Nisimura
and Shkreli.

I think it's really dishonest to represent 4chan as "ground zero for
orchestrated harassment" and "[a site where] some of its users created a set
of code words to help users make racist and bigoted slurs".

It's like saying Earth is a place where people have their organs stolen and
sold and where babies die. It is technically correct, of course, but it's very
disingenuous to describe it that way to outsiders.

I would go on and talk about what I think 4chan really stands for, but I
assume most people on HN are pretty familiar with the site, so just know that
I am in the camp that likes how it is (or used to be?) a last bastion of
freedom and anonymity (not Tor-like, but where the UX is designed to not have
profiles and usernames) and free discourse on the internet.

The main thing I want to mention is that having money problems is absolutely
nothing new to 4chan. Moot's comments have traditionally been along the lines
of "4chan will always consume all available bandwidth". The nature of the site
limits it to either leery advertisers, or people like JList (where 4channers
are almost exactly their target audience). So advertising has always been hard
for 4chan.

Personally, I think the 4chan pass is the key way to move forward for 4chan,
or solicit donations more openly (perhaps a progress bar that shows % of
monthly fees that have been paid?).

Funding 4chan is definitely a hard problem, but it has existed for more than a
decade, and has been mostly well-handled for that entire period. Time will
tell, though.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
>I would go on and talk about what I think 4chan really stands for, but I
assume most people on HN are pretty familiar with the site, so just know that
I am in the camp that likes how it is (or used to be?) a last bastion of
freedom and anonymity (not Tor-like, but where the UX is designed to not have
profiles and usernames) and free discourse on the internet.

Well, noisy discourse, shitposting, and doubles threads. Actually, not really
discourse at all. Mostly just heresy.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
Yeah, but have you considered that there's a developmental benefit to having
somewhere you can go and just say "vile" things?

I know having that kind of space online as I was coming-of-age was huge for
me, it gave me somewhere to experiment with opinions without consequences.
Somewhere to say truly, truly disgusting things. And I did, a lot. But over
time, it became clear where I was just being offensive and experimenting with
"naughty" ideas, where I was trolling, and where I genuinely disagreed with
the norm.

That free experimentation with opinions and language is a lot harder to find
these days, but it really shaped and honed my ability to even form arguments,
my ability to explain my position to people who don't agree with me, and my
ability to listen to positions I find offensive.

Not all discourse needs be Discourse, full of profundity and consequence;
experimentation, freedom, and privacy are core to the human developmental and
creative processes.

~~~
labster
The problem is that some people never got the memo that says that chanspeak is
not acceptable in polite conversation. So the chans end up being a continual
generator of sexist, racist assholes who think that it's OK to be sexist,
racist assholes. Lots (but not all) gamergaters fall into this basket of
deplorables.

Which is not to say that your comment is not valid. Society needs a release
valve where people can feel free to vent their creativity along with the
darkness in their souls. Imageboards are really great for that, as the
ephemeral anonymous nature lets the good ideas survive and the bad ideas fade
forever into the aether. Without the fear of consequences or prejudice, the
human spirit is unbound to create stuff. Naturally, 90% of everything created
is crap.

It's just a terrible place to learn socialization. And a few too many do that.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
> The problem is that some people never got the memo that says that chanspeak
> is not acceptable in polite conversation. So the chans end up being a
> continual generator of sexist, racist assholes who think that it's OK to be
> sexist, racist assholes. Lots (but not all) gamergaters fall into this
> basket of deplorables.

What you revile here with such colorful language is nothing but many
developmentally delayed people you likely bully in real life (and certainly,
if not you, others do) for not learning social graces and conforming to
society at the rate you do forming a community and insisting that they be
treated with rather than oppressed by society at large, or they'll tear the
place down.

You don't like it, because you were on the oppressing side, and oppressing
them is easier than dealing with their very real underlying issues and trying
to meaningfully integrate them in to society.

So your suggestion is to eliminate a community that plays a healthy role for
normally developing people and a meeting ground for them, presumably in hopes
that they'll go back to quietly being oppressed.

> It's just a terrible place to learn socialization. And a few too many do
> that.

Frankly, I doubt you offered them a better alternative.

~~~
labster
Good lord dude, I don't know how you got from me stating a problem to me being
a bully, an oppressor, and an attacker of the disabled. I also said that
imageboards play an important social role, which is a long, long way from
saying I want them eliminated.

I have offered an alternative wiki farm, and specifically a wiki about tropes
in media. The last time we had to deal with a developmentally disabled person
on there, we ended up calling his parents to ask for help. You know, so we
could treat him like a real human being and not just a ban evader.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
I quoted the part of your comment that exemplifies the behavior I was calling
out.

Perhaps I read it wrong: feel free to provide another interpretation of the
quoted text. I'd genuinely like to be wrong here, but it reads like you're
engaged in culturally approved oppression of the invisibly disabled.

Ed: In particular, you identify a group of developmentally stalled people who
didnt receive the help they needed to be properly socialized, and then
immediately call them "deplorables" because they acted out.

I think that says it all: these are people you willingly other instead of
embrace because they offend your cultured sebsibilities, and the culture
you're in tells you to revile rather than help. That's the definition of
culturally sanctioned oppression.

~~~
labster
I really wish that I could flag replies to my own comments :[

Sorry to burst your bubble, but openly racist and sexist people are
deplorable.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
I'm not sure why you'd flag my reply for disagreeing with you sharply. I don't
think I've done anything inappropriate, as opposed to discussing a sensitive
topic and not agreeing with you. (The reason you can't is precisely that:
because you'd flag appropriately expressed views that disagree with you in
ways that make you feel uncomfortable.)

> openly racist and sexist people are deplorable

I mean, I obviously disagree. I think it matters a lot why they're doing those
things, as opposed to that they're doing them. If it's because they're
mentally disabled and we've failed to teach them socially appropriate
behaviors as they matured, how is that their failing rather than ours?

Your lack of concern for that possibility -- that we're just discarding the
disabled because they didn't develop under their own power in to normal adults
-- is what troubles me about your stance.

~~~
labster
No, I would flag you because of the personal attacks, which are a violation of
board rules. I don't really care about your views now, because you're
obviously a lost cause.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
Which personal attacks would those be?

I've claimed that I think you're acting a certain way, but that's not a
personal attack: it's a specific claim about how you're acting (and how it
impacts others) based on specific and cited things you've said. Calling you
out for your behavior isn't "attacking" you, even if it's uncomfortable for
you or violates your social expectations.

> I don't really care about your views now, because you're obviously a lost
> cause.

Yes, I suspected that you would refuse to engage with someone who disagreed
with your view and called you out on your behavior, because it would force you
to confront the reality of how your actions impact people rather than the
social fable you tell yourself about them. Notice how you call me a "lost
cause", but clearly never even talked _to_ me in this exchange. You just said
the socially approved phrases _at_ me. I think the reason you haven't actually
addressed my specific points is because at some level, you know you _can 't_.
That what you're doing really is oppression targeted at a disabled group
you've been socialized to find "deplorable" rather than "unfortunate".

It's just much easier to deny your bad behavior and fit in.

~~~
labster
Nah, it's much easier to git commit something useful than try to argue against
a strawman version of oneself constructed by an SJW.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
Im sure you'll tell yourself you chose not to respond but could have.

But I sincerely hope you'll at least try for your own benefit. I think having
to explain why poorly raised mentally disabled people saying racist things are
deplorable rather than unfortunate, without merely assuming your conclusion is
right would teach you a lot about yourself. You don't even have to show me:
just spend 5 minutes typing it out for yourself. Why not be sure you're right
instead of merely assuming Im wrong?

Good luck on your commit. (:

~~~
labster
Not sure why I'd have to do so. I've never made any comment that referred to
mentally disabled people. Unless you equate sexism to a mental disability? If
that's so, like wow.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
You did make such a comment, and I've already cited it for you. And explained
why it was offensive.

That you're not even able to admit that much is telling, lol

------
ClassyJacket
>And the forum is pointed to as the origin of GamerGate, the controversial
movement that views female gamers as ruining the gaming industry, leading to
vitriolic online attacks on women.

Laughably biased and wrong. Not even close to attempting an accurate
description the situation.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
I'm not sure which of those you think is wrong, that excerpt seems pretty
accurate to me.

~~~
oolongCat
Because the whole "gamergate" thing was not about attacking female gamers. If
I recall correctly they were after people who were villainizing video games.

~~~
crooked-v
You don't recall correctly. The whole thing started with false accusations of
unethical conduct against a particular female game developer (Zoe Quinn),
followed by harrassment campaigns and personal threats against that same
person.

~~~
milankragujevic
How is it false? Not trolling, just out of the loop for a while.

------
chillingeffect
> Some of it is benign, like cat memes and the site LOLCats. But much of it is
> offensive.

:) It's clever sleight of mouth to counterpose "benign" with "offensive,"
implying that offensive isn't benign. Sticks and stones.

As a visitor for over a decade, I can say almost all of 4chan is benign as
it's recipes, endless blather about anime and video games, fashion and music.
Typical teenage stuff.

The big difference between 4chan and most other places is the threshold for
banning. In most forums, e.g. HN, if you speak against the forum, you get
banned. On 4chan, you just get ignored and people get exposed and steeled
against your ignorant behavior.

It's really the logical conclusion of "not in my backyard" style management.
If you keep pushing people out of your neighborhood, they'll end up somewhere
and that place is 4chan. And typically people grow up and out of it.

This article is testing peoples' reactions to a possible "victory for
cleanliness" in the HRC victory. I imagine the center-right (which call
themselves Democrats) will enjoy a good bit of muscle-flexing and creative
interpretation of "freedom of speech" in the next 4-8 years.

Finally, getting condemned by the Anti-Defamation League is not difficult.
[http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Anti-
Defamation_League](http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Anti-Defamation_League)

------
h4nkoslo
I assume this article is designed to signal that the regime finds 4chan _most_
distasteful, and would prefer for it not to be purchased, if you want to
remain on their good side.

Which makes total sense, since 4chan-derived memes have apparently broken into
the mainstream against all odds, to the point where actual US presidential
candidates (CNN's favored candidate, come to think of it) are declaring war on
goddamn Pepe for excessively challenging their narrative control. The
incredibly Darwinian environment is to memes what Chinese farms are for
influenza, and we are beginning to see the real-world effects.

In any event a few entities at varying levels of seriousness have inquired
about the possibility of purchasing 4chan and received no response, so it's
unclear what's actually going on.

------
tfnw
I find 4chan valuable because it seems to give an insight to raw humanity
without the self censoring common in normal human interaction. I would rather
people tell me what they really think, and I hope that as humanity evolves,
normal interaction will become more direct.

~~~
k__
Yes. I think so too.

The post are all that count. You can't vote someone up or down, like on HN
just because you agree or disagree. You don't have to think about your
personal reputation when you post and how much upvotes you get.

Simply plain information.

Yes there is a whole bunch of BS going on, if you visit stuff like /r9k/ and
/pol/, full of nazis who think hate-speach is the essence of free speach. But
the topic boards like /fit/ or /fa/ or /ck/ have really good distilled
informations.

~~~
tfnw
I don't like the endless repetition by people trying to exploit flaws in the
human brain for their own purposes, but if you are able to mentally filter the
inanity, you can experience the rare patches of awe inspiring creativity,
well, at least I have been able to on occasion, I don't go there often and not
recently so don't know if this is still true.

As for the expression of unpopular opinion, I feel that a society that is able
to handle it's members freely expressing the most offensive viewpoints is
infinitely more robust than one where these things are left to simmer just
below the surface.

------
pessimizer
And nothing of value was lost. The center of the internet cesspool wandered
away from 4chan at least 5 years ago. Eventually, the site will shut down
after passing through six to ten more hands. This will not affect 8chan,
420chan, anonib, 7chan, or any of the other dozens of sites that have popped
in and out of existence for nearly as long as 4chan has existed, a number of
which that are still around being only a couple of years younger. There will
for the forseeable future be a place to post what you'll do when the id of a
reply ends in 7, Jennifer Lawrence's hacked nude selfies, or your deeply held
and extensively researched views on issues involving ethics in video game
journalism.

It's never going to be anyone's money factory, which I guess is what "CNN
Money" would be concerned about.

------
formula1
I understand that many on HN want to defend 4chan. While I am a firm believer
in free speech what I find fascinating is that they paint offensive and
disgusting content as humorous and worth debating.

That being said, the board disappearing or losing popularity to the point of
unusability is significant in a couple of ways to me.

The first is that the wild west of the internet is coming to a close.
Everything is being watched and "safe havens"/"rotting pools" are threats to
an organized leadership.

The second is that these kinds of groups have staying power outside a name.
Can they migrate to new ownership or will they stay? I personally believe that
4chan will slow to a crawl and eventually viewership will die out.

The third is about trust. 4chan is not anonymous unless you are behind trusted
proxies and/or share ip addresses with harmless strangers. However, since the
data is stored on the site, they have free reign over what they can do with
your content. As a result, 4chan is only a "safe haven" because it is
notoriously caustic.

A fourth thing I found interesting was that the solutions to the 4chan problem
were financially motivated rather than technically. Selling passes or
threatening slowdowns sounds like a bullying. Im confident there are ways to
offload parts such as using torrents as the post/image/video database rather
than keep it. Turning 4chan into a "protocol" rather than a "website".

But Im not suprised the site will be put in this position. Its basically a
place for people to look im the mirror and wank off. It will probably not
evolve to anything more than a place of contreversy because thats what makes
it successful. Theres so much goo that can come out of free speech but the
only things 4chan attracts are insecure rodents that want to pretend they are
bigger than they are.

~~~
odessacubbage
>While I am a firm believer in free speech what I find fascinating is that
they paint offensive and disgusting content as humorous and worth debating.

plenty of people seem to believe in free speech until it's used in a manner
they don't like, you have to take the good with the bad.

>A fourth thing I found interesting was that the solutions to the 4chan
problem were financially motivated rather than technically.

hiroyuki has a history of proclaiming dire financials in order to scare users
into giving him more money

it has long been alleged that he did similar with 2ch and niconico before
selling the data of pass users, which is why he is no longer involved with
either site.

[http://roninworksjapan.tumblr.com/post/151338674506/hiroykis...](http://roninworksjapan.tumblr.com/post/151338674506/hiroykis-
same-old-trick)

i'd argue that 4chan hasn't been free speech friendly for a number of years
and has been dying primarily from poor moderation.

~~~
formula1
I figured as much. This whole thing sounds very sketchy. Whats next is wether
or not the users on 4chan will accept it. I imagine for how audacious they
have been in the past that there will be some sort of push back. But I get the
impression that a mass migration is inconvienient and with no leadership there
wont be enough interest in new places

------
oldmanjay
I'm not certain, CNN, should I find 4chan offensive? Could you please hammer
the answer into my head about a billion fucking times in one article

------
oolongCat
What's with CNN attacking 4chan so much these days? Funny how a media channel
that used to do actual reporting has gone down to this level. I bet 4chan and
its users are really happy with the free publicity.

------
complaint
Hopefully the final nail in the coffin of that vile site.

~~~
astrodust
4chan ran its course, and it's long overdue for disruption. Even moot had to
run away because of how much trouble it had become.

