
California teaches inmates code; some states ban them from teaching themselves - morisy
https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/aug/17/prisons-coding-ban/
======
wan23
That list of banned books in Michigan is really interesting. Just from the
first few pages -

A+ Certification Exam Guide - May facilitate or encourage criminal activity

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons - Threat to the order and security of the
institution; role play

Against the Wind - Threat to the order/security of institution
([https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/206757.Against_the_Wind](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/206757.Against_the_Wind))

Art of Seduction (The) - Threat to order/security institution

Bookkeeping for Dummies - This book may facilitate crimial activity because
the book includes tax forms which may be used to facilitate the filing of
false or fraudulent tax documents.

~~~
b4ux1t3
I. . .What on earth?

Why not ban chemistry textbooks? Learning about rapid oxidation reactions
could be a threat to the order and security of the institution.

~~~
tomjakubowski
Michigan does ban an organic chemistry textbook—Fox & Whitesell—for just that
reason.

~~~
b4ux1t3
I. . .I am really glad I don't live in Michigan, I guess. Are there any other
interesting ones? I can't seem to find the list.

EDIT: Oh, never mind, I didn't realize they actually linked it in the article.
Whoops.

~~~
ringaroundthetx
> I. . .I am really glad I don't live in Michigan, I guess.

Why? If you lived there you would have some capability of changing it. You
aren't an inmate.

~~~
kbenson
> You aren't an inmate.

Presumably. Some states allow internet use, do they not?

~~~
b4ux1t3
Oh, that's nice. Tell me, what content is appropriate for a person who was
arrested for dealing a few ounces of weed?

Motherfucker might find a chemical reaction that blows up!

Fuck acetic acid! Fuck sodium bicarbonate!

~~~
dang
Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to HN? We're hoping for a
higher quality of discussion here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html)

------
shawndrost
IAMA former teacher at 7370/The Last Mile. AMA

Background: I am a cofounder at Hack Reactor, a coding bootcamp in SF. I
worked with Beverly and Chris Redlitz to start Code.7370. Hack Reactor
dedicated instruction, curriculum, and volunteer management to its foundation
by building the curriculum, bundling all required materials (no internet in
the classroom), and lecturing through the first class. I personally visited
San Quentin a couple of dozen times to plan and teach, as did many coworkers
at Hack Reactor. I also managed the volunteer-driven project to build the
curriculum, powered by Hack Reactor alums and other volunteers. I worked
closely with the students in the program (incredibly smart, dedicated, and
community-oriented) and I was given a window into the very inspiring program
that TLM envisioned, built, and (over the years since) managed and scaled.

~~~
chris_va
What was the success criteria for the program?

How much selection bias is there in the students?

------
Zarathust
There's one phrase that makes the whole thing very important : "In April, ABC
News reported that none of the prisoners who had gone through the program had
returned to prison since being released.". It is, imo, the only thing that
really matters in the end

~~~
aaron-lebo
It's likely that former criminals get back into crime because they can't make
a living, so they go back into something more lucrative and they have
experience with. Coding is incredibly lucrative, so problem solved?

Wonder how they are getting jobs though. The number of jobs hiring those
without university experience (and practical experience) and a criminal record
can't be substantial. Probably job placement which is possible because it's a
small program they really want to work. The actual website is very media
friendly, but numbers are lacking.

~~~
eropple
I've noticed that software gigs tend to be a lot more reasonable about the
felony checkbox. Not in banking/medical/other regulated areas, and usually
towards white folks (which addresses some cultural stuff), but in general.

------
jxramos
I remember I was going to donate some old software text books to a prison
volunteer organization. They turned my offer down saying something to the
effect that inmate's reading levels would prevent them from comprehending
college texts. I remember thinking it would inspire some Malcolm X type person
getting all absorbed in reading and expanding the mind. I was pretty shocked
at being declined, and made me contemplate being a Pollyanna about this
subject.

~~~
stephengillie
That all criminals have a low reading level/intelligence is a classist(?)
argument which supports systemic prejudice against criminals, increases
recidivism, and limits their paths for redemption.

------
elipsey
Some of the ideas referenced in this article seem kind of weird to me, like
that coding is “the next big blue collar job.”

Is this a profession or a trade?

Is “Software Engineering” a euphemism that exaggerates our jobs?

Did I waste my time getting a CS degree and spending half my life learning to
do this?

I’m all in favor of anyone who wants to learn programming having a go at it,
but I hope it doesn’t make me an elitist if I wonder whether it’s fair to
consider software dev or engineering a trade skill that most anyone should be
able to learn in several months without a general STEM education...

~~~
shawndrost
[I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor, a coding bootcamp.]

Your comment defines a trade skill as one "that most anyone should be able to
learn in several months without a general STEM education". So, let's evaluate
that question for a few different trades/professions.

"Software Engineering": We have determined, through experimental proof, that
bootcamps can make (some) novice non-degree-holders into employable software
engineers in 3 months. Probably 3-18 months would cover most people that would
otherwise be entering college in a CS major.

At parties I like to ask people how long it would take to teach someone to do
their job. (Posit that they're smart and interested.) For most white-collar
jobs, people answer "6-18 months". Most trade schools are somewhere in that
region as well.

In my opinion, most professions would be well-served by the bootcamp model
(like software engineering is) and a 6-18 month training period. So per your
definition, I would say there are few professions out there, if any.

~~~
bdcravens
I understand calling someone an engineer is critical to your marketing, but
they aren't engineers. Teaching someone a framework isn't teaching them any
form of engineering. It's teaching them to be an employable technician.
Engineering is teaching from first principles.

A good rule of thumb: can they do their job if Stackoverflow.com is blocked at
the corporate firewall?

~~~
Raphmedia
In Canada it is illegal to practice engineering, or use the title
"professional engineer" or "engineer", without a license. For example, after
complaints were lodged by the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers, a
court in Quebec fined Microsoft Canada $1,000 for misusing the "engineer"
title by referring to MCSE graduates as engineers.

~~~
majormjr
The 'Professional Engineer' title is regulated but there is some doubt with
the plain 'Engineer' title. It also varies depending on each province

Microsoft was fined but still hasn't changed their certificate titles, and
this fined was levied in 2004. So it shows that enforcement of this is spotty
at best.

~~~
derekp7
The title of the page at [https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/learning/mcse-
certification....](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/learning/mcse-
certification.aspx) is "Microft Certified Solutions Expert".

------
orthecreedence
Assuming that computer science books are banned because they could be used for
getting access to unauthorized systems within the prison, they should also ban
books on plumbing because a wrench could be used to hit somebody, or books on
math as well because what if a prisoner finds a way to create a quantum tunnel
outside of the prison just with some simple equations?

I'm consistently surprised by how idiotic our prison system in the US is. It
seems to have two mantras: "the more the merrier" and "punish, not correct." I
guess that's what happens when you have something as dumbfoundingly stupid as
private prisons.

~~~
KindOne
Can easily be fixed with air-gapped machines.

------
strictnein
I can't help by wonder if this date is some latent Y2k bug:

[https://cdn.muckrock.com/news_photos/2017/08/17/hacking.jpg](https://cdn.muckrock.com/news_photos/2017/08/17/hacking.jpg)

    
    
       "July 2, 1905"

------
buovjaga
Related:
[https://caspiaorg.github.io/website/](https://caspiaorg.github.io/website/)

Caspia is an organization dedicated to help prisoners in the state of
Washington participate in open source software projects.

------
oxguy3
Here's the full list of tech/science-related bans I found on the Ohio list:

* BEGINNING LINUX PROGRAMMING 4TH EDITION

* BLACK + DECKER THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO WIRING

* LPIC-1: LINUX PROFESSIONAL INSTITUTE CERTIFICATION STUDY GUIDE, THIRD EDITION

* MAKE: 35 THE DANGER ISSUE 38 (okay this ban is pretty justified)

* OPERATING SYSTEMS DEMYSTIFIED

* POPULAR MECHANICS 09/2014

* POPULAR SCIENCE 10/2015

* PRINTREADING FOR INSTALLING AND TROUBLESHOOTING ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS: SECOND EDITION

* WIRED 24.04

* WIRED MAGAZINE 08/2015

And apparently anything that even mentions Nazis is banned, even if it's just
historical content:

* INTELLIGENCE REPORT WINTER 2015/ISSUE 159

* MAUS: MY FATHER BLEEDS HISTORY

* THE GESTAPO: A HISTORY OF HORROR

And I wonder what got these magazine issues banned:

* THE ATLANTIC 10/2014

* TIME 04/18/2016

~~~
aaron-lebo
The nazi ban makes sense because of certain prison gangs.

~~~
triangleman
Maus is pretty strongly anti-nazi of course because it's told from the
perspective of a Holocaust survivor. It would be like banning _Schindler 's
List_ from a list of films available to prisons. Maybe it is banned in some
places.

------
AlexCoventry
I volunteered in a NYS prison for a while. They had rooms full of computers
which were off-limits to prisoners for unspecified security reasons. Some
people were talking about offering a purely paper-based course on programming.
At least developing programming skills was not a thought-crime there, though.

------
mjmein
I once delivered a public speaking course to a group of prisoners about to go
on parole. It was really eye opening to see how low confidence most of them
had, and how bad they were at expressing themselves. In my opinion prisons
should be made a lot more like college - make it that prisoners are forced to
learn skills instead of being forced to do nothing.

------
mnm1
All states and the federal government are allowed to enslave prisoners. Is
anyone surprised they ban books without reason? As long as the 13th Amendment
stays unamended, nothing will ever change in this area. When people are
thought of as subhuman slaves, there's no limit to the depravity and horrors
that will be justified.

~~~
Fjolsvith
If you commit the crime, you do the time. Don't want to be 'enslaved', don't
commit the crime!

And most people in prison committed the crime.

~~~
mnm1
I'm sure they had similar bullshit justifying slavery in its previous forms
too.

~~~
Fjolsvith
You are confusing slavery with criminal punishment.

------
journalistsscum
> Computer programming is, according to Wired’s Clive Thompson, “The Big Blue
> Collar Job.” In countries like Australia and Estonia, coding has become a
> central part of school curricula. If programming is the wave of the future
> in employment, prisons in several American states may be cutting
> incarcerated people off from gaining important skills by preventing them
> from possessing or receiving books about computer programming.

Journalists clearly have a problem with the fact that the asocial nerds and
geeks from high school are making much more money than them. That's why we see
so many articles referring to us as "coders" (like the people that do medical
data entry) instead of "software engineers," and why we see people like Clive
Thompson classifying us as blue collar workers--unlike journalists, who
presumably are white collar. Considering that to the average reader, rightly
or wrongly, one of the central distinctions between blue and white collar
workers is intelligence, with blue collar workers stereotyped as being less
intelligent, Thompson's classification is a rather obvious slight.

~~~
alphaalpha101
>journalistsscum

Nice neutral name

>software engineers

Sorry to break it to you, but software development is not engineering.

------
Dowwie
Heard a guest on NPR say that treadmills were invented as labor for prisoners
that would create no sense of purpose nor pride in accomplishment

~~~
leggomylibro
Huh. I immediately thought 'bullshit' and googled it, but Wikipedia says that
yes, treadmills were invented in the UK in 1818 for prison labor.

But depending on how you define a treadmill, I don't think that's true; beasts
of burden have been walking in circles to drive mills since people started
cultivating wheat.

------
yohann305
Programming

~~~
TallGuyShort
University students might use it to nefarious ends too. I think the body of
research that education is a net good is pretty conclusive at this point.

~~~
yohann305
i hate HN people downvote you left and right for no reason.. This trend has to
stop... You cannot compare students to inmates Inmates are official criminals,
not students... The system has already proven inmates have criminal activity.
You think you can just teach code and it won't cross their mind to use it to
nefarious ends? It's a real risk

~~~
arkades
I didn't downvote you for "no reason." I downvoted you for a laughably I'll
thought out post.

Your logic suggests we shouldn't let them get their hands on anything that
could be used illegally - so let's keep them away from kitchen knives,
automotive repair (makes it easier to steal cars), coaching baseball (all
those dangerous blunt instruments), gardening (opportunities to case houses),
etc.

If precluding all future chance of nefarious activity is the goal, you don't
have a system of rehabilitation, you just have an excuse to exile people.

~~~
wahern
Perhaps he thought the issue was permitting inmates to write programs that,
while they were institutionalized, would be released to the public. Maybe they
would be permitted to electronically converse and cooperate with open source
project maintainers. That's what I thought before reading the article,
probably because I was primed by the comment about Caspia.

I still wouldn't agree that categorically restricting such activity is
reasonable, but it's less laughable in that context.

