

Yahoo knew of attacks before Google, kept mum - briansmith
http://ca.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idCATRE60E5PQ20100116?sp=true

======
jsm386
Is that surprising given Yahoo's history with China? If your not familiar, the
reporter waited until the closing paragraphs to put this in proper context:

 _In 2007, Yahoo outraged human rights activists after accusations that the
Internet giant had handed over the mail, data on online activity and Internet
addresses of suspected dissidents to Chinese officials. Though Yahoo
eventually settled the lawsuits brought by lawyers acting on behalf of jailed
dissidents.

The suit, advanced by the Washington D.C.-based World Organization for Human
Rights USA, maintained that Yahoo had benefited financially by working with
Chinese authorities.

Yahoo also no longer maintains its own Internet site in China. In 2005, Yahoo
handed over exclusive rights to the "Yahoo China" brand name and folded its
Chinese mail, messaging and other operations into the Alibaba Group, in a $1
billion deal that gave Yahoo a 40 percent stake in Alibaba._

~~~
briansmith
In other words, Yahoo makes money in China indirectly so they can't be as
easily blamed for their behavior.

------
mahmud
Yahoo just rolls over and takes it. The sad thing is, when China is a
profitable enough market, and companies who sucked up to the regime are ready
to capitalize on their presence there, Yahoo itself will not be around to reap
the benefits.

~~~
nfnaaron
Like probably most other companies doing business in China, and probably for
years.

Not defending it, just pointing out that this one decision of Yahoo's is,
unfortunately, normal.

------
sh1mmer
As someone who works at Yahoo I'm going to say I have no guilt over China. If
you think China commits human rights violations stop doing business with them
yourself. That means not buying anything made in China, including anything
made by Apple.

The human rights abuses in China are sad, and upsetting. I'm a member of
Amnesty and I care about stopping them. However, western business operating in
China have an ability to change the market and increase the standard of living
and the freedoms in that country through increased wealth and communication.

This story isn't (or shouldn't) be about Yahoo!'s operations in China it
should be about co-operation between companies to prevent cyber-terrorism
wherever it's from. I'd like to think next time we as a company are more
forthcoming with information to others, so they have more notice of potential
threats.

N.B These views are my own and don't necessarily represent Yahoo!'s views,
yada, yada

~~~
antipaganda
Does it help China increase the standard of living when Yahoo gets human
rights campaigners thrown in jail?

~~~
electromagnetic
That depends whether the instability brought by poking a corrupt regime is
good or bad. On the one hand the human rights campaigners could improve
democracy and help bring China into the modern world, whilst on the other hand
promoting the faults of their corrupt regime could easily result in anarchy
and martial law if there was ever an uprising. The major problem here is that
an uprising would quickly cause the cost of production to go through the roof
in China, forcing virtually every industry to pull out of the country and
relocate elsewhere. This major export hit to the Chinese economy could
collapse their entire system, and disregarding the international effects, it
could easily land China in the situation of North Korea.

Honestly, with the fact that China could so easily result in a massive North
Korea, how would that help the standard of living?

China isn't a simple situation and assigning childish ethics to the country
will resolve nothing. The simple allowance of unions in China could easily
result in another global recession. A college strike here in Ontario is
threatening the provinces recovery as it may delay the graduation of all those
getting retrained due to the financial crisis. Simply imagine what happened if
unionization occurred throughout China and the ramifications for the countries
trade.

China is going to require baby steps to bring it into a democratic and free
world, anything faster could be an international economic disaster on the
scale of the great depression.

~~~
pieceofpeace

      Simply imagine what happened if unionization occurred
      throughout China and the ramifications for the
      countries trade.
    

Unionization should occur. The Chinese government is using harsh methods to
stop that. But the later it happens the worse the results will be for us.

    
    
      China is going to require baby steps to bring it 
      into a democratic and free world
    

We don't need to be delicately careful as if China's a baby. The local human
rights activists and upstanding corps like Google are very effective and non-
aggressive ways of prodding it into a democratic and free world.

~~~
electromagnetic
China needs unionization to occur slowly, spreading through key agencies like
health care and steel production, rather than a mass unionization of its
manufacturing sector. Japan and South Korea achieved unionization of its
workforce rather admirably as it happened in key industry first that didn't
have a major effect on its economy. A fast switch to unionization could easily
cause western manufacturers switch to other south-east Asian countries or even
to Africa.

Also, I wasn't advocating treating China like a baby, but I believe it is
delicate. The actions of its local human rights activists, and Google (even
when it wasn't taking its current stance) were forces for good in the country.

The last thing we need with China is an economic collapse of the country, or a
regressionist movement that forces them down a path similar to North Korea.
However, I do believe Western governments have to start taking a more hard-
line approach when dealing with China. The government can't be given the "Oh
it's just China" treatment like parent's saying "Boys will be boys" that it is
currently getting. It's almost like the country gets allowed to do what it
wants because it's communist, but unlike the USSR was, it isn't militarily
aggressive towards the west.

------
DougBTX

      "I don't understand how that helps anything. I don't 
       understand how that helps us and I don't understand
       how that helps China," Ballmer said.
    

With a quote like that, you have no idea what question Ballmer was asked, what
exactly "that" refers to.

~~~
sjs
The paragraph above that one is enough context, no? He was asked about pulling
out of China.

    
    
        Chief Executive Steve Ballmer said Thursday the software giant
        had no plans to pull out of China. Microsoft is chiefly
        interested in getting Beijing to crack down on
        intellectual property rights, and has no desire to ruffle
        relations, analysts said.

~~~
nitrogen
The paragraph above is not a quote of Ballmer. There is no actual context
provided to say what _Ballmer_ meant by "that," only what the reporter says
Ballmer meant. Perhaps that is what the GP meant.

------
apower
Look people, Google is not above anybody else. Google turned over information
to the Indian government to throw some guy in jail for making some remark on a
website about the government. Google is just as much against free speech and
corroborating with governments against individual rights when it comes to
making money. [http://binaryday.com/2008/05/18/is-the-arrest-of-rahul-
krish...](http://binaryday.com/2008/05/18/is-the-arrest-of-rahul-krishnakumar-
vaid-an-attack-on-free-speech/)

------
dirtbox
China has been all out attacking various networks both corporate and
government all over the world since at least 2003 so it puzzles me why this is
news to anyone. Google knew all about that at the time, but they only publicly
lash out now when they're on the the receiving end? Seems rather self serving.

Especially considering Google is not even as popular as the Alibaba Group
owned Yahoo in China, let alone the many Chinese search engines.

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ahlatimer
Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but doesn't this just mean that Yahoo
knew about the attacks _before Google told them?_ Google could have been aware
of the attacks well before they told Yahoo about it, and there's no indication
(given the information in the body of the article) that Yahoo knew _first_
(likewise, the inverse is true).

------
freetard
And yet people still think of Google as more evil than Yahoo. Even when Yahoo
has sent some bloggers to jail and now that.

~~~
cema
They do? I am surprised. In what circles?

~~~
freetard
You don't read the news or blogs? There's not a single day without an article
questioning Google evilness when it comes to our data. I never see any about
Yahoo.

~~~
philwelch
Google has reached the backlash stage in the PR cycle, Yahoo has passed into
the too-established-to-be-interesting stage.

~~~
cema
Could be. It feels that Google is the "in" company in more ways than one.

------
DanielBMarkham
For the reading impaired:

 _Analysts say many foreign multinationals in fact may occasionally bend over
backwards to appease Beijing, coveting the vast potential market in what will
soon be the world's second-largest economy.

Since Google reported the attacks, only Adobe Systems Inc, Juniper Networks
Inc and Rackspace Hosting Inc have acknowledged experiencing similar
incidents. But the majority of victims have remained silent._

------
metatronscube
Is Yahoo still around?

~~~
CamperBob
I think they were bought by AltaVista...

------
lucifer
Confession time: I also knew of concerted Chinese attacks "before Google" and
kept mum. For the past few years, day after day, countless phishing and spam
kept arriving in my inbox with .cn URLs but I kept it to myself.

