
Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia - mzs
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50573069
======
Doctor_Fegg
This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan,
Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly
news.

The only major-league mapping site I know that doesn't do local alterations is
OpenStreetMap, and that's because OSM's attitude is "you want the map to show
something else? sure, download the raw data and host your own instance".

~~~
trymas
> This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan,
> Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly
> news.

Exactly. Couple days ago, I have entered "Palestine" into google maps. It did
not highlight any territory and just showed me generic location of Middle
East. On mobile it did not relocate map view at all.

AFAIK with disputed territories it was always like that - it depends what you
search and from where you search. Names, borders will be different and IMO
it's fine as reality is that regarding locations there's sometimes no clear
answer who controls it and what name it has.

IIRC there's an island on a river in Europe where it is exchanged between
countries weekly (or daily, don't remember)..

~~~
bjourne
But the Palestine example shows that it does _not_ happen with every disputed
territory in the world. If you are living in a country that has recognized
Palestine and has diplomatic relations the state
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_t...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine))
it would make sense that "Palestine" would show up on the map. But it doesn't
show up either on Google's, Apple's or Bing's map.

------
anotheryou
The sentence about google maps is wrong. Google shows whatever you want to
see.

[https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg)

Google.com.ua users see a state/province border (top image)

Google.de users a disputed international boundary (middle image)

Google.ru users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings
of city names (bottom image).

(and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans)

I made the screenshots using proxies or maybe just changing the domains about
a year ago (don't remember what exactly I did).

~~~
treden
This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it
acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source
for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version
of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one
imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One
True Truth down everyone else's throats.

~~~
adrianmonk
> _google isn 't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a
> subjective truth_

There _is_ an objective truth here, though, that could be shown (if it were
allowed). You could show it as disputed. That the dispute exists is an
objective truth. The very fact that different states require you to display it
differently is proof of that.

> _presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming
> from_

Normally I shy away from this terminology, but let's call it what it is:
propaganda. Tech companies (Google, Apple) don't custom-tailor their maps
because they want to. They do it because the states use leverage to force them
into it. And the states do it to promote the idea that the disputed territory
is theirs.

~~~
saulrh
The question isn't whether or not there's a dispute. The question is whether
or not there's a _meaningful_ dispute, and whoever's showing the map still has
to make that determination. For example, I still hear people calling it "the
war of northern aggression" and calling for the South to rise again. Do we
mark everything south of the Mason-Dixon line as being disputed by
successionists? No, obviously - that claim is ridiculous. But that claim
_exists_ , and so you must decide whether or not it is "legitimate". It is
exactly the same process as deciding how to show Crimea or Ukraine or dozens
of other international borders of varying dubiousness.

~~~
chc
I can see how your point applies in the case of "the war of northern
aggression," but not here. If you're showing different things to different
people on different sides of the dispute, obviously you've decided there is a
meaningful dispute.

------
dangus
This sort of thing happened long before technology provided mapping programs.
I wonder if anyone is familiar with how these things played out in the days of
published maps? I’m no historian myself. But I’m sure some map publisher had
to begrudgingly admit that “their side lost” at some point.

Here’s the thing, once enough time passes, you have to start to consider that
Crimea may never return to Ukrainian control.

Just because Russia’s actions have been condemned by the international
community doesn’t mean those actions weren’t taken and weren’t successful.

We have to admit at some point that Russia controls this territory now
because, sadly, nobody did anything significant to stop it. Russia essentially
fought a brief war and won, and took territory as a result.

It’s getting to the point where a map saying that this land is inside the
Ukraine is an inaccurate statement.

~~~
varjag
The USA used to depict Baltic states as Soviet-occupied independent states on
the maps, and didn't budge until USSR fell apart and the countries regained
independence.

Growing a spine to stand up for what is right helps. Appeasing a bully is
certainly going to cement status quo.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
What do you mean by “re-gained” independence? They were part of Russia for
centuries prior to that. That was them gaining independence for the first time
since like the 1500s or so?

~~~
brutt
Russia doesn't exist now, because it renamed itself into Ukraine, to avoid
confusion with bloody Russian Empire.

Russian Federation ≠ Russian Empire (doesn't exist) ≠ Russia (now Ukraine) ≠
town of Russia (now Old Russa).

BTW. Romania ≠ Rome (now Italy).

~~~
rovolo
What do you mean when you say 'Russia' then? Do you mean the Kievan Rus?
That's the only 'Rus' name I see applied to Ukraine on its wiki page. If so,
that was 8 centuries ago, and the Russian ethnic group at that time was spread
over Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus.

Or perhaps, are you saying that the Russian empire isn't truly Russian because
the Romanovs were German?

I get what you're saying about country boundaries and composition changing
over time, but it seems like a stretch to call Ukraine the true Russia.

~~~
brutt
<541 — Russia - town of Russia (Русся), now: Old Russa (Старая Русса), but
town was moved about 50km up the river at third re-habitation. "Rus`" means
Red. They painted their shields in red and used Old Norwegian language.

880-1240 — Russia - Russia, Русь, modern name: Kievan Rus` (to avoid confusion
with Russian Empire), now: Ukraine. Built on remnants of eastern part of
Volynnia (Free People) kingdom (now: Volyn` region of Ukraine). Rus`-sia means
"Rus` there/this" in Slavic, so "-sia" suffix is dropped in Slavic languages,
thus Russia transformed into Rus` (BTW: s(с) and s`(сь) are different
consonants). In Western Europe traditional name was used: Russia. They used
Eastern Slavic Languages.

Then Russia fall apart into 1) Red Russia, or Ruthenia (Rose People Land),
now: Western Ukraine, 2) White Russia, or White Ruthenia, now: Belarus`, 3)
Black Russia or Black Ruthenia, now: Grodno region of Belarus`, 4) Carphatian
Russia or Carpathian Ruthenia, now: Zakarpattia, western part of Western
Ukraine.

1721-1917 — Petro I conquered Russia, so he got title "Emperor of All Russia"
(Царь всея Руси). Then Catherine II renamed Moscow kingdom into "All Russia
Empire" (Всероссийская Империя), which then simplified to Russian
Empire(Российская Империя), or just Russia (Россия).

So Russia can mean Russia/Русся (<541), Rus`/Русь (880-1240), Red, White,
Black Rus`, or Russian Empire/Российская Империя (1721-1917).

------
cpursley
> However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in
> Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling.

The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being
ethnically Russian). It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the
peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar
(descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian. Last time I was
there (early this year), I saw a number of new mosques under construction.

I'm not justifying the recent annexation, just noting the linguist realities
on the ground. Also, politics aside, if you ever have the chance to visit, do
it. The peninsula is very beautiful and there's lots of interesting
geographical features and historical sights to see. Also, the infrastructure
has improved significantly since the Russian takeover (unfortunately Ukraine
being poor, neglected the peninsula after the collapse of the USSR) so getting
around is easier now.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#demographics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#demographics)

~~~
jevgeni
By that logic, all areas of Russia where the non-Russian ethnicity is dominant
(of which there are a lot) should all be written out in their respective
languages.

Also, the argument "well it was like that since <some time t>" does not really
have traction. Why choose an arbitrary time point? Usually, these arguments
fall apart when you suggest to look at <t - dt>.

~~~
knolax
But concepts like "Russian" and "Ukrainian" are time period specific. I think
GP is saying that the area has been Russian-majority every since when the
distinction between Russian and Ukrainian came into existence.

~~~
brutt
Distinction between Russians and Ukrainians started after rename of (Kievan)
Russia into Ukraine in 1908, when delegates from whole Russia Empire made
decision to change name, to move away from Moscow. After Soviet Revolution,
Ukrainians started Great Ukrainization, with it peak in 1929. At it peak, 81
millions of Ukrainians (Russians) and 77 millions of Russians (Russish) were
counted in 1926. This was perceived as great threat to Soviet Union, because
Ukrainians wanted their own, independent from Moscow, country. To tame
Ukrainians, genocide was started, known as Holodomor, which killed 7 millions
of adults (accepted by RF) and 23 millions of children (not accepted by RF) in
1932-1934, which are hidden in losses in WWW2, which are raised from 12
millions to 42 millions. Also, 20 millions of Ukrainians were written as
Russians at Kuban and Crimea, so number of Russians jumped from 77 millions to
97 millions. So, at next people count, 97 millions of Russians and 29 millions
of Ukrainians were counted. Problem solved. To tame Ukraine furthers,
Ukrainian language was forbidden to use, and Ukrainian elite is (still) killed
regularly.

~~~
vogre
That's modern propagandistic oversimplification of the Great Hunger, which
devastated agricultural parts of Soviet Union, including Russians and
Ukrainians.

~~~
brutt
It was prohibited to talk about Holodomor at times of Soviet Union. Actual
number of victims is still top secret of Russian Federation. Archives, which
has huge historic value, are destroyed in 2010, 70 years after Holodomor,
instead of opening for public. If you have detailed information about
Holodomor, please share. Currently, we use recorded witnesses and sporadic
documents to study it. Also, graves of victims are found at rate of about 2
new mass-grave per month in Summer, for decades.

All recorded witnesses share same main narrative: it was year with high yield,
but everything edible, even in very small quantities, like handful of seeds,
was confiscated by state multiple times per month, until people starved to
death.

It's not a Great Famine, like in 1921. It's Holodomor ("Mass-murder by
Famine").

Witnesses:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMTnkeksUMk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMTnkeksUMk)
More information:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5YjztNdRwk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5YjztNdRwk)

~~~
osullivj
Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands is excellent on the Holodomyr. He cites various
sources estimating the victim count at 3M to 10M, and suggests 6M himself
IIRC. He also details Stalin's orders in 32 and 33. The NKVD confiscated
grain. When all the grain was gone, they confiscated seed grain, making it
impossible to plant for the following year. And they confiscated the cattle
too. Snyder constructs a strong argument to the effect that this was
deliberate mass murder by Stalin.

And then Stalin launched the Great Terror in 37. Snyder estimates the death
count as 750K.

In the West we have a propaganda hangover from WWII - the "Uncle Joe" view of
Stalin. Many wonder at what was going on in Hitler's mind. For me Stalin is
far more incomprehensible. Utterly cold, cynical and calculating. Must have
been some kind of sociopath or psychopath.

~~~
brutt
Russian Duma confirmed 7 millions of victims at 02.04.2008, then Russian FSB
destroyed archives of 1926 census in 2010, to hide real number of victims.

------
mzs
Minister for Foreign Affairs of Ukraine:
[https://twitter.com/VPrystaiko/status/1199725757762850819](https://twitter.com/VPrystaiko/status/1199725757762850819)

>IPhones are great products. Seriously, though, @Apple, please, please, stick
to high-tech and entertainment. Global politics is not your strong side.
#CrimeaIsUkraine

~~~
nickpeterson
Russia has the power to take a portion of territory and they did. The means
through which they did it is considered wrong, but it doesn't change the
reality of who controls the area. Maps of political borders are maps of
influence, not maps of ideals.

I'll also note that thoughts and prayers are not terribly useful in these
situations. Force responds to force, nothing else. I expect Russia to continue
doing these sorts of things while the world frets.

~~~
FpUser
_I expect Russia to continue doing these sorts of things while the world
frets._

I think the situation with Crimea is unique as there is a set of multiple
historical, racial, political etc. etc. factors not present anywhere else.
What else could Russia possibly annex without triggering major war and world
mayhem?

~~~
keiferski
The only real answer to this question is probably Belarus.

~~~
FpUser
In theory they can. In practice I think should any military aggression happen
the rest of the world will quite deservedly cut off any ties with Russia while
offering to Belorussia all military assistance possible short of direct
participation.

------
hyko
Apple enjoys all the privileges of being based in a western liberal democracy,
but it’s starting to feel like they don’t really believe in those values. All
that guff about privacy, the environment, minority rights etc, yet when faced
with real tyranny they will do literally anything in return for market access.
The lesson is clear: don’t expect soft power alone to topple the autocrats of
the 21st Century.

~~~
yogthos
Show me a single corporation that has values beyond making a profit.

~~~
jmccorm
A nonprofit corporation is one answer.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_corporation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_corporation)

But if you’re not being literal when you ask about values beyond profit, then
as an easy example: Valve. They believe in promoting PC gaming and moving it
forward. I think their service (and products) represents that value fairly
well, and sometimes at the expense of profit.

~~~
renjimen
Tell that to the CSGO community with the new game-breaking changes (you can
buy camoflaged player skins) in the name of profit

~~~
jmccorm
Despite this, I find it quite difficult to say that Valve values profits and
nothing else. Why? Values are not binary, and they are not applied equally in
all situations. And like any company, they’ve made their share of bad moves.
Yet a profit-first Valve would be far different than the company we see today.

Still, I’m sorry to hear of that situation.

------
dmix
I learned early in my web dev career that the India northern map one is a very
touchy subject if you intend to target Indians with your web service.

You have to be careful not to take some random map off the internet when using
them in the design.

~~~
colechristensen
What are the issues at play in northern India?

~~~
evgenyp
Kashmir has been disputed between India and Pakistan for several decades now.

~~~
Razengan
Has anybody thought of asking the people of the disputed region which country
they’d like to be a part of?

~~~
input_sh
Nope, you're the first human in history who has thought of that.

Sarcasm aside, it's because India knows it'd lose in the referendum. The area
is >60% Muslim, India has committed some horrible atrocities in the area, and
there's just no way the majority of people there today would vote for India
(decades ago, it would have been the opposite).

Hence, India will do anything it can for the referendum to just not happen.

~~~
Surio
> India has committed some horrible atrocities in the area,

Not only is that an oversimplification, but it is also plain wrong at so many
levels (but it is the lie that has been spun for a long time now). Successive
govts. helmed by a certain sell out (Indian) political party had
systematically worked against Indian interests by not only not challenging
this false narrative, but actually tacitly endorsing it, until recently.
Embarrasingly, people like Tulsi Gabbard have been more sympathetic and
supporting of the facts behind the incidents, and calling out the false media
spin. But this support has led to India waking up and becoming more assertive
in calling out lies and facing more facts on the table for all to see.. See
this latest video from Tom Lantos meeting:

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Vz_0B4eo4](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Vz_0B4eo4)

Edit: should read sell out Indian political party

------
ir77
i'm a big fan of apple products and definitely bought into apple's stance --
but now i'm starting to think it's nothing more than a convenient branding
campaign that only works in the USA.

all these aspects that apple markets in the USA seem to be completely
negotiable anywhere in the world, and i wonder how long before they can also
become negotiable in the USA.

in the USA, because of fairly well established democracy and general freedom
of speech apple is able to push back on government "requests" blatantly in the
open and use this openness to their advantage. everywhere else where no such
transparency exists because the government completely controls the
communication medium these pushbacks simply don't happen -- apple really has
no interest of ever stepping out on a limb if that limb will cost them
calculated market share.

it's really sad because they as a company are speaking/acting out of both of
their ends, depending on the convenience of the local market. it's convenient
and possible to push back in the USA, it's convenient and impossible to push
back with other totalitarian regimes so they fold.

~~~
derefr
Does anyone believe in "change from the inside" any more?

From a "change from the inside" perspective, Apple can make more of a positive
difference in pushing forward their agenda for countries like Russia, by
staying in the Russian market, complying with a few government demands, and
thus offering a sub-optimal form of their products/services—but still a form
that has nonzero privacy/democracy/etc.-enhancing effects, relative to the
alternatives that would fill the market in their absence.

For example, iOS devices at least have a universal base image where Apple
knowingly makes these changes, and as few of them as possible; whereas Android
devices get their firmware tampered with in each country by that country's
OEMs, and so can be made _arbitrarily_ compromised, including making those
same changes to the maps on the client side.

\---

Or, to put a finer point on it: a company like Apple that offers
privacy/security-enhancing products, opting out of a market because that
market's government _sees them as a threat and wants to neuter their
abilities_ , would be like a peacekeeping organization opting out of a country
because of the very things that make countries need peacekeeping (e.g. a
failed state.)

Would you pressure KFOR to leave Kosovo _because_ the Kosovo government
doesn't let them do their jobs? No, that'd be reason for them to _stay_.

What's suddenly different if it's a profit-motivated corporation? They're
still helping citizens evade state surveillance, even if entirely for selfish
reasons.

~~~
golemotron
> From a "change from the inside" perspective, Apple can make more of a
> positive difference in pushing forward their agenda for countries like
> Russia, by staying in the Russian market, complying with a few government
> demands

How did that work in China?

More to the point, companies are not nations or governments. Having agendas
for countries is not their place.

~~~
derefr
> How did that work in China?

China is mostly what I was referring to, honestly. An iOS device that can run
five secure-messaging apps instead of ten is still better than an Android
device that's been potentially wiretapped during last-mile delivery to the
customer.

(This is the same reason that contracts from Western governments propped up
RIM for a while, before Apple became a viable replacement for them. A US
government official could trust a Blackberry they acquired _in_ China, far
more than they could trust a regular Chinese cellphone.)

> More to the point, companies are not nations or governments. Having agendas
> for countries is not their place.

Companies (at least S-corps) don't have agendas _per se_ ; but their
employees, as citizens of countries, certainly do. When everybody behind the
design of an iPhone lives in the US, you'd better believe that the iPhone is
being designed to put forward an implicit "agenda" carried by the cultural
beliefs of citizens of the US, whether Apple-as-a-profit-motivated-corporation
likes it or not. (You know how there's a recent trend in the US with
corporations adopting social-justice messaging in their community guidelines?
Think about how that kind of support develops in a corporation, and then
replace "social justice" with "foreign policy.")

~~~
golemotron
That's a bit fuzzy. If you want to carry that argument further, replace
employees with shareholders. Re the messaging you refer to, it's good PR and
it would occur without employee activism.

------
yardie
This probably happens a lot more than you realize. Border and geographic name
disputes can get very political and potentially violent.

Off the top of my head:

* Persian/Arabian Gulf

* Palestine/Israel

* Western Sahara/Morocco

* Kashmir

~~~
improbable22
* Antarctica!

Every map you see in Chile & Argentina includes a large pie-slice of the
continent... and pretty close to being the same pie slice as each other's.

Not to mention some islands which one of them tried to take over, once upon a
time.

------
salimmadjd
Interesting historical background (not taking sides here).

Russia sold Alaska to America to pay for the debt accrued from the Crimean
War.[0]

It was Nikita Khrushchev who decided to hand over Crimea as territory of
Ukraine.[1]

[0][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Purchase](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Purchase)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea)

~~~
brutt
Ukraine was much larger before Soviet invasion. Crimea and Kuban were removed
first, then Crimea granted back in exchange of other territories of same size
at North and East of Ukraine, then Crimean is captured again. Never trust
Russians.

~~~
vogre
Kuban and Crimea was conquered by Russian Empress Catherine the Great from
Ottomans and local Golden Horde debrises.

Ukraine was never considered non-Russian state until the fall of Soviets in
199x. Even when it gained short independency in 1917 by the rulings of the
Brest Peace, it proclaimed itself as part of some new Russian Federation(that
idea was not really liked by bolsheviks and they eliminated that state).

Even then Crimea wasn't the part of the Ukraine. It was added to Ukraine only
in 1954, when Ukrainian-born Khruschev gave it to Ukraine without some
plebiscite or other voting.

There were some lands that were really given to Ukraine for exchange for Kuban
- the West Ukraine, which belonged to Poland before WWII.

~~~
brutt
Ukraine IS Russia. When Peter I conquered Russia, it appended "Emperor of
Russia" (Царь всея Русси) to his title. Ukraine IS the Russian state. Russians
call themselves "Russish" (русские), and their country Rossiia (Россия), to
distinguish themselves from Russians (русичи, русины) and Russia (Русся, Русь)

Crimea and Cuban were part of Ukraine prior to soviet invasion. Look at maps
of Ukraine in 1919-1920:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic)
.

~~~
vogre
Well it looks that you are not Russian, your word analysis is quite wrong. We
call ourselves русские(Russians) to distinguish ourselves from
россияне(citizens of Russia).

It's meaningless to look at maps of Ukraine in 1919-1920, because it was
failed state at that time, born by total chaos brought by Bolshevik's
rebellion and defeat in WWI, caused by it. Also Crimea was not a part of
Ukraine even then, they had their very own independent republic.

Ukrainians considered Russians in the Empire, at least those who lived on the
left bank of Dnieper.

~~~
brutt
Ukraine Republic was failed because of invasion. It's meaningless to talk with
aggressor.

BTW: can you explain meaning of "scratch Russish and you will find
Tatar/поскреби русского и найдёш татарина"? WTF is "russificated
peoples/обрусевшие народы"?

~~~
vogre
Invasion was succesful because people did not support the Ukrainian government
and considered themselves Russian. Unfortunately they were betrayed by
Bolsheviks then.

About Russian and Tatar - the original usage of that phrase differs from
current. It was used in 19 century to present Russia as some barbarian horde,
not European country it was these days.

I think the origins of the phrase was in the book "La Russie en 1839", which
is basically a piece of anti-Russian propaganda of 19 century.

Обрусевшие народы - ethnicities that lost(sometimes partially) their
identities and now are considered Russians. Russia is actually a melting pot
of quite different ethnicities, including mongoloid and slavic ones. For
convenience some of these ethnicities are considered just Russians.

Being Russian is not really an ethnic thing - it's more of cultural one.

------
eznoonze
What a world we live in! Each country gets its own version of alternative
reality.

~~~
hollander
It should be marked as disputed, from both sides, like "agreed to disagree".

Think what would happen if the UK took back Hong Kong, or if Hong Kong
declared itself independent. We - westerners - would all love that and accept
it immediately. Would we have a problem then with Apple if they showed HK as a
separate country?

~~~
nmeofthestate
"It should be marked as disputed"

That's not how international law works. By all means maps may be tailored to
suit the preferences of markets/countries, but military conquest of a
territory doesn't convert it to a "disputed" status. Currently the
internationally-recognised borders between Ukraine/Russia are well-defined.

> We - westerners - would all love [the UK invading and annexing Hong Kong]
> and accept it immediately.

What rot!

~~~
gnode
Both Russia and Ukraine claim the territory of Crimea, and it is therefore
disputed.

> but military conquest of a territory doesn't convert it to a "disputed"
> status.

Many territories are disputed without conflict. If military conquest,
occupation and de facto control of a territory doesn't reify a dispute, then
nothing does.

For examples:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes)

------
LeoPanthera
The headline is somewhat misleading. The map has only been changed when viewed
from inside Russia.

It is unchanged, everywhere else.

------
anfilt
First China and now Russia. Come on apple, I don't like seeing placation or
appeasement like this.

------
jmull
I would think maps published in a given region pretty much have to follow the
political norms of that region -- unless they are specifically meant as a
political statement.

Now, if Apple showed Crimea as part of Russia in other parts of the world in
response to Russian pressure, then that's a story.

------
pjc50
See also Kashmir, Microsoft 1995:
[https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20030822-00/?p=42...](https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20030822-00/?p=42823)

More accidentally,
[https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20061027-00/?p=29...](https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20061027-00/?p=29213)
: Microsoft accidentally flood Poland.

------
mzs
Anyone know how to check these from different locations? I'm curious about how
Transnistria is treated from Moldova, Romania, Ukraine, and Russia.

>Google, which also produces a popular Maps app, does not show Crimea as
belonging to either Russia or Ukraine on its maps.

>However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in
Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling.

~~~
hmage
[https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg)

Ukrainian users see a state/province border (top image)

German users see a disputed international boundary (middle image)

Russian users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings
of city names (bottom image).

(and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans)

------
w0mbat
Back in the 90s when I was at a small BBC spin-off writing 3D Atlas (published
by EA) we'd periodically get orders from EA to mark Tibet or Taiwan as part of
China, or attribute Kashmir to India or Pakistan or something, apparently
required for a particular localized version. It was a more innocent time, and
we'd always tell them to fuck off.

------
1023bytes
Well, there is no denying that the region is in fact currently governed by
Russia. Whether that is right is another question.

~~~
MrZongle2
And unfortunately it seems like the question that many people are willing to
give Apple a pass for.

~~~
macinjosh
Do you really think somewhere in Apple HQ Tim Cook gathered everyone around
and said Apple is going to make a big political statement, about something
they have no part in, but instead of putting out a press release let's just
change one part of the map for one country. Puhlease. This is a reflection of
current reality.

------
gfiorav
Not really surprised to see this behaviour from Apple. They've also blocked
LGBTI watchfaces in Russia. I know all other companies do this too, but I
wonder: If Apple can't do it... then who can? We need some bravery.

------
bitwize
No shit. It is literally a crime in some countries to suggest that some piece
of land which they consider part of their territory, is not part of their
territory. Microsoft ran into this with Kashmir in _Windows 95_.

------
mensetmanusman
They should shadow ban the Russian politicians and show them the entire world
belongs to Russia. Would that get the point across to them?

------
ponsin
I don't know the specifics of Crimea that well but there should be some easy
heuristics to see who owns what country. \- When items are sold, which country
collects sales tax? \- Who provides the police, driver license, mail? \- If
there are elections, who to the people vote for?

Does Crimea not have simple answers to those questions?

~~~
vogre
It does.

Russia does it all.

~~~
ponsin
so then it seems stupid to not recognize reality just because we may not agree
that it was good that Russia conquered Crimea.

------
sidcool
Genuine question. How should Apple decide what to show where? We being
individuals, can take a stand, but how can a company take non neutral stand
where there are grey areas? Because one man's terrorist is another man's
freedom fighter. Should a business be in the business of Justice?

~~~
est
Maybe the US state department should give a guideline about how countries
should draw their maps so American companies can start follow them.

------
basicplus2
I can imagine that it would be much easier to convince a generation of people
who believe Crimea is part of Russia to go to war to win back "their"
territory.

One has to wonder if companies like Apple have considered such consequences.

------
keymone
It may be that there was some reorganization at Apple because my friend From
Ukraine yesterday told me she was forced to pick a different App Store on her
phone and the only option available was Russia.

------
macinjosh
Everyone knows electronic maps are for navigating through the world as it is
but is not a place people tend to make their political statements, right?

Maps have changed in the past. They will change again in the future.

------
Paianni
Why don't we just recognise territories by whomever happens to control them?
Insisting on 'legitimate' states imposes politics onto world maps where it
shouldn't be needed.

------
Gaelan
@mods would it be possible to add "when viewed in Russia" to the title? Seems
like an important caveat.

------
lawnchair_larry
Why are people under the impression that Crimea is not part of Russia?

~~~
macinjosh
Some people like to reject reality and substitute their own. :shrug:

------
Nasrudith
A more honest way of doing these maps would be to assign universal and
transparent territory codes for claimed divergent maps.

Of course honesty would defeat the point of the legitimacy propaganda aspect
as it would make the politics of it abundantly clear.

------
wnevets
I'm sure apple will try to spin this as having courage

------
jdkee
Alternative facts.

------
xxpor
Russia only has 144 million people. Phones haven't been commoditized like they
have in China with WeChat. They only have 15% market share. Why doesn't Apple
tell Russia to shove it where the sun doesn't shine?

~~~
TurkishPoptart
Because Tim Cook is worthless and spineless.

~~~
dang
Please don't post personal attacks or call names in HN comments. Perhaps you
don't owe billionaire CEOs better, but you owe this community better if you're
participating here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

