
Bill Gates Has an Idea for a History Class - walterbell
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/magazine/so-bill-gates-has-this-idea-for-a-history-class.html
======
sheltgor
"To his bafflement and frustration, he has become a remarkably polarizing
figure in the education world."

There's kind of a reason for this. If you're going to spend hundreds of
millions of dollars promoting a specific academic agenda, one even more
focused on the standardized testing that parents, students, and teachers alike
tend to loath, and geared towards preparing kids for jobs rather than
educating them (look at English in common core where now 70% of what students
are supposed to read is not classic literature, plays, poetry, contemporary
fiction, but newspaper articles and speeches and the like), he should at least
educate his own kids in that way. Instead he seems to defy his own investment
by sending his children to a school that emphasies no testing, a big focus on
the classics and letting kids do their own thing and become well rounded.

As a student of history this sort of line of thinking looks interesting,
though I wouldn't want to replace our entire history curriculum with it.
Perhaps as an elective, though at this point Bill attempting to touch
education is just asking for trouble...

~~~
tptacek
It is not true that any education solution that works for Bill Gates' family
will work at scale across a hugely diverse population. It's possible ---
likely, in fact --- that it's impossible to effectively (and cost-effectively)
deliver the education Gates' kids get to the entire country.

With that in mind, I'm not sure how Gates' own school selection impacts his
ideas about education. It seems rather like it has nothing at all to do with
his ideas, in which case the appeal to Gates' own actions is fallacious.

Where do I have this wrong?

~~~
sheltgor
I've read interviews previously where Gates has spoke wonders of the benefits
of the school allowing kids more freedom for things like coding, of a well-
rounded background in things like English as opposed to using the class more
for non-fiction purposes, etc. This is in regards to his own education at that
same institution. So my point is essentially that his ideas about what helped
lead to his own success, and the educational model he likely believes will be
good for his own children, differs fairly substantially from what he funds for
the majority of the country.

I do agree that a single solution is not the answer, but the issue is that
Common Core actually is much more along the lines of creating a one size fits
all model, rather than a community focused model. Much of what Common Core
focuses on is actually being very well received in some areas, particularly in
low-income, 'troubled' schools. However, the problem is that it is being
applied, and that it is being preached by Gates and others, to the entire
country, where kids with a more stable environment don't benefit as much from
the same structure.

~~~
tormeh
Gates' kids are probably exceedingly smart. Giving them freedom is probably a
good idea. Giving the average high schooler freedom is definitely /not/ a good
idea.

~~~
walterbell
What about the unidentified high school kid who will be the next Gates or
Jobs? Let's not repeat La Serrata of Venice.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serrata_del_Maggior_Consiglio](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serrata_del_Maggior_Consiglio)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Council_of_Venice](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Council_of_Venice)

~~~
gone35
Perhaps it's already too late --with US inequality having risen up to gilded-
age levels, as it has, for over a generation now.

~~~
walterbell
As long as parents and teachers are free to invest their resources into one
vision over another, it's never too late to measure competing visions of
measurement.

~~~
theworst
Assuming we can meaningfully measure competing visions of measurement.

The turtles, all the way down, they burn!

------
walterbell
Sci-Fi author L. Sprague de Camp's 1963 book, "The Ancient Engineers", is also
worth a look, from early Egyptian engineering up to Galileo. From an Amazon
review: _“History, technology, culture, finance, and sociology intersect here.
It’s not history from the top (kings and such, which some say is dry), nor
history from the bottom (average people, which is necessarily endless and
perhaps not very revealing). It’s history from the nuts-and-bolts middle–how
structures were built, how materials were transported, how wars were fought.
When you know this sort of foundational information, everything else becomes
more real.”_

Review: [https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/l-sprague-de-
camp...](https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/l-sprague-de-camp-14/the-
ancient-engineers-2/)

Preview: [http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Engineers-L-Sprague-
Camp/dp/03...](http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Engineers-L-Sprague-
Camp/dp/0345482875/)

Excerpt: _" Everybody has heard of Julius Caesar - but who knows about his
contemporary Sergius Orata, the Roman building contractor who invented central
indirect house heating? Yet Orata has affected our daily lives far more than
Caesar ever did."_
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergius_Orata](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergius_Orata))

~~~
mtdewcmu
There are no constraints on history other than that it happened in the past.
If a story hasn't been adequately told, it should be.

~~~
jclos
I disagree slightly. An additional constraint I would put is that there is
enough time past for the historians to have a good view of the events (and
their consequences). There is a lot of debate among historians (according to a
historian friend of mine) about the legitimacy of historians specializing on
"recent" history, because of the lack of distance and the inherent
subjectivity (not that the distant past is any less subjective).

~~~
walterbell
> enough time past for the historians to have a good view of the events (and
> their consequences).

One example is
[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bury_My_Heart_at_Wounded_Knee](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bury_My_Heart_at_Wounded_Knee)

------
hackuser
Considering David Christian's history for my own uses, I know little about the
quality of his work besides his endorsement by Gates (who is very smart but
not an expert in these fields). Before I spend a lot of time on Big History,
does anyone know:

1) What is David Christian's professional reputation among his peers?

2) What do professional historians see as the strengths and weaknesses of Big
History?

3) Does he really know enough about all these subjects to provide expert
knowledge and analysis? Wouldn't it be better to have the evolution section
taught by an evolutionary biologist?

If these questions are answered in the article, please forgive me. I skimmed
it, but it's 12 pages (converted to PDF).

~~~
maxexcloo
I personally took his Introduction to Big History course last semester and had
him as a tutor so my experiences may be useful to you!

1) While I don't know a lot about academic circles from what I gathered his
method of teaching history is seen as different but not at all bad, he has
connections in other fields who seem to love what he's doing.

2) Can't really answer that unfortunately.

3) David Christian is interesting as he'll readily admit if he doesn't know
something in a lot of detail. That said, I found his knowledge to be quite
good across all of the history we covered and he answered student questions
well, pulling on others with more knowledge if he was unable to fully explain
something or was unclear. He does in fact enlist the support of other
professors for teaching certain topics, the lecture of the formation of the
Earth was given by a Geologist and Evolution was in part covered by Dr Greg
Downey, an anthropologist.

I actually really enjoyed the course as, coming from an IT background, it was
quite a bit more engaging and interesting and the group discussions in
tutorials were very interesting with many good discussions had.

------
WalterBright
This seems a lot like Burke's "Connections" series (which is very good).

~~~
qq66
Connections is a thought-provoking series, but I don't think it acknowledges
how speculative it is, and by extension how speculative almost all historical
explanations are.

~~~
joelhaus
Loved the series. To your point, Burke apparently has a pretty amazing track
record:

[https://audioboo.fm/boos/1574606-james-burke-predicted-
the-f...](https://audioboo.fm/boos/1574606-james-burke-predicted-the-future-
in-1973-now-he-does-it-again) (WARNING: webpage auto-plays an audio track of
Burke)

------
pbhjpbhj
Mentioned in the article:
[https://www.ted.com/talks/david_christian_big_history](https://www.ted.com/talks/david_christian_big_history)

------
mikevm
This approach reminds me of a course I took on Coursera a while ago called "A
Brief History of Humankind":
[https://www.coursera.org/course/humankind](https://www.coursera.org/course/humankind)

It is the best enrichment course I had ever taken. I wonder if the lecturer
(Yuval Harrari) was influenced by this "Big History", or he arrived at this
teaching method independently.

------
troymc
Isaac Asimov's nonfiction often took the historical, chronological approach to
explaining any topic, from chemistry to Shakespeare. It becomes a story, and
people are really good at understanding (and remembering) stories.

Maybe it shouldn't be framed as a "history class" though. It's really not
"history, expanded." It's more like "The Big Picture, of Everything You're
Learning."

------
plg
it's always interesting to me that we (north americans in particular) seem to
think that just because a person is rich, that they therefore:

\- are interesting people

\- are smart

\- have opinions that are well founded and worth listening to

\- are good leaders

\- are role models

... moreso than people who are not rich

~~~
mathgladiator
I think north Americans are looking for the secrets about how to be rich.

------
jgh
Reminds me of Carl Sagan's quote "To bake an apple pie from scratch, you must
first invent the universe"

------
kenko
It sounds more as if a history professor has an idea for a history class.

But Bill Gates has a lot of money, which means (apparently) that he's more
worth paying attention to, regardless of the topic.

~~~
maxexcloo
I took this unit last semester (at Macquarie University, with David Christian
as my lecturer and tutor) and am happy to answer any questions you might have
on teaching style or such. Personally I really enjoyed it and found it very
thought provoking and interesting (history usually doesn't capture my
attention as I like to see a broader view).

------
zxexz
David Christian's concept, especially the "thresholds", reminds me of an
excellent course[0]/book[1]/website[2] written/taught by the wonderful
astrophysicist Eric Chaisson[3]. Not exactly focused on "history" in the
traditional sense, but on the history of the universe, focusing on different
"epochs", from the big bang, to present day and beyond. I highly recommend the
readings (and the course for those who are monetarily and geographically able
to do so [Boston area]).

[0] [http://www.extension.harvard.edu/courses/cosmic-evolution-
or...](http://www.extension.harvard.edu/courses/cosmic-evolution-origins-
matter-life) [1] [http://www.amazon.com/Cosmic-Evolution-Rise-Complexity-
Natur...](http://www.amazon.com/Cosmic-Evolution-Rise-Complexity-
Nature/dp/0674009878) [2]
[https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~ejchaisson/cosmic_evolution/doc...](https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~ejchaisson/cosmic_evolution/docs/fr_1/fr_1_site_summary.html)
[3]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Chaisson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Chaisson)

------
neves
I've listened to Christian's audio classes. It is darn cool! You travel
through all realms of knowledge. It celebrates evidence, reasoning and
science. A simple audiobook is more intellectually stimulating than the
excellent Cosmos Series. Man, if I had billions of dollars these would be the
kind of things I'd love to spend my money on.

------
pyrocat
Well, I'm thoroughly convinced. I want to take this class!

~~~
exhilaration
Here you go: [http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/big-history-the-
big-b...](http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/big-history-the-big-bang-
life-on-earth-and-the-rise-of-humanity.html)

~~~
kqr2
The audio edition is cheaper through audible.com :

[http://www.amazon.com/Big-History-Bang-Earth-
Humanity/dp/B00...](http://www.amazon.com/Big-History-Bang-Earth-
Humanity/dp/B00DTNW86O/)

~~~
glaugh
Also available on the iTunes store

------
bencollier49
Isn't this how Steiner education works?

------
fdsary
Is it possible for mods to make title less linkbaity? Even if the target's
title is.

~~~
dchuk
Why does it matter?

~~~
delecti
I'm not who you're responding to, but in general I think it's a good thing
when the article title gives you an idea of its content.

~~~
jbigelow76
I poke fun at the OP in my comment (as of right now) above, but to more
seriously discuss what I brought up (would literal titles render quality
content less discovered) but I have seen title changes on HN that made me glad
I read the article before the title had been changed otherwise I would have
missed it.

Edit: to further expand, there have also been articles I click through to with
"linkbait" titles, that ended up being poorly written or not what I thought
they were going to be about. I close them after a couple of paragraphs (and
don't feel cheated or tricked). Were I on another community I might be more
wary of links to crap but since HN tends to skew more towards quality stuff
I'd rather let the "linkbait" if enough of the community thought it was good
enough to get it to the front page. I get suitably more discriminating when
browsing the New section.

------
freedom123
Toss education into the private sector, problem solved. The market will sort
out what education formats perform best - what else you guys want to talk
about?

~~~
samirmenon
Don't all people have an equal right to education?

~~~
freedom123
Education isn't a right. It is a choice.

~~~
parfe
>Education isn't a right. It is a choice.

That's a poorly thought out platitude. Plenty of rights are also choices such
as the right to vote, to remain silent, to bear arms, to a trial by jury.

~~~
freedom123
I just said its not a right. So to equate it to other rights doesn't make
sense.

~~~
dllthomas
You said _" Education isn't a right. It is a choice."_ By the pragmatics of
English, this is reasonably interpreted as _" Education isn't a right
[because] it is a choice"_. Pointing out that other rights are choices refutes
that. If it wasn't what you were trying to say, you should clarify.

------
sarciszewski
This is what I've learned from this article:

* Dave Christian has Bill Gates' email address

* Dave Christian lectured at San Diego State University

After a minute of Google searching, I discovered that
[http://advancement.sdsu.edu/marcomm/experts/department/al_hi...](http://advancement.sdsu.edu/marcomm/experts/department/al_history.html)
lists d-------@mail.sdsu.edu as his email address.

This means that the sysadmins of mail.sdsu.edu have Bill Gates' personal email
address. So if any of their IIS machines go down, they have the rare
opportunity to complain directly to the man who started it. ;D

~~~
rjsamson
I know you can find it on Google and all, but I don't think it's appropriate
to call out Dave's contact info publicly like this...

~~~
sarciszewski
> I don't think it's appropriate to call out Dave's contact info publicly like
> this...

I do think it's appropriate to call out Dave's contact info publicly like
this...

We have reached an impasse.

