
GoPro Hero 7 - Siecje
https://shop.gopro.com/International/cameras/hero7-black/CHDHX-701-master.html
======
jchw
First thing I get hit with is the site trying to register for push
notifications, then after scrolling down slightly, a newsletter modal. That's
definitely a good way to convince me to close the tab.

~~~
bbddg
Good thing the target demo isn't pedantic internet nerds.

~~~
andrepd
It's a shame you're on a website whose target demo is pedantic internet nerds
then :^)

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jbergstroem
Tech specs and Hero evolution aside I feel the marketing department made a
great video. Makes me want to go out and Do Stuff. While recording it.

(edit) Put differently: I think they really hit the nail on the head from a
branding and association ("I also want to") perspective. There's definitely a
market gap to wrestle about here.

~~~
exhilaration
Agreed, video was great. Can anybody name the song they're using?

~~~
notwhereyouare
Siri tagged it as "Time to Dance - SebastiAn Remix" and it sounds like it when
listening on spotify

~~~
AjithAntony
I like it
[https://play.google.com/music/m/Tr3qhyweb4hvbkv6eo6jryugszi?...](https://play.google.com/music/m/Tr3qhyweb4hvbkv6eo6jryugszi?t=Time_to_Dance_Sebastian_Remix_-
_The_Shoes)

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dsego
I don't understand, I have the 6 and stabilization is already really good.
Truth be told, I'm not doing stunts on rough terrain, but even on gravel roads
it does the job. The video looks like it's totally turned off for "Previous
GoPro".

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leeoniya
i stopped buying gopros due to poor battery life after 3+. it seems every new
version can do more stuff (4k, 240fps, wifi, etc) at the expense of runtime.
battery life never seems to be a feature. has this improved at all?

~~~
augustz
Amazing, exactly my issue as well.

I'm convinced their promo videos are shot by teams carrying tons of batteries.
If you are actually adventuring / backpacking for a few days etc, a go-pro is
no go unless you want to be worrying about battery life the entire time.

~~~
Siecje
A battery lasts about 3 hours of filming for me using GoPro Hero 5 Black 1080
30fps linear.

This usually lasts all day of regular use.

I now have 3 batteries and never have to worry about battery life.

~~~
leeoniya
filming in winter + ProTune mode + 1080p60, however, is a frustrating
experience. 30min is typical. if battery is brand new then maybe you can
squeeze 45min out of it.

~~~
dsego
My experience as well. That's why I have two batteries and a battery pack.
Although I'm not doing much filming right now, it's more hassle than I
expected.

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avinassh
What other good alternatives I have if I don't really want social features
(like live sharing), wifi and not interested in voice control etc?

~~~
bonestamp2
Here are the top selling products in the action cam category on amazon (most
of your other options are listed here):

[https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/7161074011...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/7161074011/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_electronics_1_4_last)

I've got #26 now (YI 4K action cam). It's considerably cheaper than the GoPro
at $149. It's not bad for casual use, but the fact that the gopro is
waterproof by default and it has better image stabilization among other
features, I'm going to trade it in ($100 credit) for the new Hero 7. But, if
you're looking for something cheaper, the YI is fine or maybe the Hero White
if you want waterproofing instead of 4K.

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OedipusRex
GoPro has been dying for a few years, there are a ton of alternatives at much
lower prices and if you're just strapping it to a bike or something no need to
go top of the line.

[https://youtu.be/l4fHeiqtGOA](https://youtu.be/l4fHeiqtGOA)

~~~
bonestamp2
Great video, thanks!

I'll add that based on their last earnings call it sounded like they learned a
lot from xmas 2017. Now they're introducing new models every year and at lower
price points. Competition is one reason. Also, saturation is probably why we
see that $100 trade-in credit for any old digital camera. There is a slight
premium to pay, but in a lot of cases I think it's worth it for waterproofing,
build quality, software stability, etc.

Their stock has really tumbled but I think they've figured out the formula now
and the stock will probably turn around in 2019 after the xmas sales numbers
are in.

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endorphone
They again are sticking with EIS, and again the demos are of extremely well
lit scenes.

EIS solutions don't hold up quite as well in lower light, where OIS absolutely
shines. Video, just like photos, has individual frames that have exposure
times, and in lower light the longer exposure time == garbage source frames
that no amount of EIS can fix. But expect a tonne of extremely well lit
examples pretending that it's a cure all.

The best solutions marry EIS and OIS. That's exactly what the iPhone does.

~~~
skookum
The respective pros and cons of EIS & OIS don't change with light level. EIS
works by cropping part of the image which results in a narrower FoV and a
lower resolution, however these effects occur regardless of how bright the
scene is.

The additional moving parts of OIS systems make them less suitable for
ruggedized cameras.

~~~
IshKebab
You're ignoring the effects of motion blur. Consider a smoothly panning camera
in a poorly lit scene. OIS can move the lens to cancel out the pan so you
don't get blurring.

EIS can only do it if you take multiple photos at a much higher frame rate (I
think the Pixel 2 does this but it is very uncommon, and probably too power
intensive to do for 4K video).

~~~
skookum
You're ignoring the application.

OIS systems move a subgroup of lens elements to compensate for movement of the
camera. The degree of that movement is very limited. The main purpose of OIS
is to approximate a stationary camera platform from a near-stationary one.
Many OIS systems get turned off for panning - while more sophisticated ones
support being turned off in the panning axis - specifically because they don't
handle movement outside of a very limited range. For applications where the
camera is intended to be in-motion the appropriate mechanical solution is
using a gimbal, not OIS.

The main purpose of gimbals or EIS is not to produce sharper individual frames
but to reduce jarring across a sequence of frames by smoothing the camera
movement - gimbals do it physically while EIS simulates it after the fact by
using a subset of the total sensor area.

At 30fps the longest possible per-frame exposure is 1/30s. An action camera-
wearing athlete moving at a leisurely 20mph will travel about a foot in 1/30s
- and that's just movement in one axis. OIS is not going to help with per-
frame motion blur when the camera moves that much or more during the exposure.

~~~
endorphone
_OIS is not going to help with per-frame motion blur when the camera moves
that much or more during the exposure._

A camera rotating or tilting just a few degrees has magnitudes more of an
impact than the fastest possible athlete. And yes, of course OIS "turns off"
during panning (and the resulting image blur is not only consequent, it is
expected and natural), as it would counteract the effect. Just to be clear, I
spent two years building a commercial image stabilization solution -- I'm
pretty educated on what I'm talking about.

The value of OIS + EIS is that with OIS the vast majority of frames have the
stablest possible capture, while EIS can effectively fix what OIS misguessed
(e.g. the beginning of a pan that OIS tries to counteract). This is exactly
what the iPhone does.

~~~
skookum
> A camera rotating or tilting

> I'm pretty educated on what I'm talking about.

Then you should know that tilting _is_ rotation. Unless by rotation you mean
specifically around the optical axis to differentiate from pitch and yaw... in
which case you should know that such rotation is uncorrectable by optical
systems - though it is correctable by sensor-shift systems.

I think the point you're trying to make with "a few degrees has magnitudes
more of an impact" is that rotation has more impact than shift. I agree that
the rotation caused by moving the lens a few millimeters has more impact than
shifting the camera a few millimeters for sufficiently distant subjects. This
is why early IS systems were focused on mitigating pitch and yaw as opposed to
shifts: moving lens groups to counter millimeters of rotation is within the
physical capabilities of a system that can fit within a lens and it gives a
lot of bang for the buck in a narrow sweet spot. Rotational movement is most
prevalent in hand-held cameras while operating the camera - for example
pressing the shutter button - and less so when it's just being held. This is
why there was a standard trick in still photography of using bursts of
continuous shooting to get clearer captures: the first frame is impacted by
sudden pitch but subsequent ones are much less so. OIS does an excellent job
of addressing that first frame blur.

Due to inertia, when a camera is attached to a larger object in motion
(athlete, surfboard, vehicle, etc.) random rotational movement is much less
pronounced while continuous shifting is. Correcting sustained directional
movement - be it rotational or shift - is not something OIS systems are
designed to handle. They are meant to correct random movement around a mean,
essentially they provide an instant mechanical "reversion to the mean" of
sorts. Correcting tens of centimeters of shift is well outside their
capabilities and shifting a camera tens of centimeters during exposure will
absolutely result in noticeable blur. It doesn't remotely require "the fastest
possible athlete" to achieve that level of shift during a 1/30s exposure.

The point is not that EIS is better than OIS - the systems serve different
purposes. The point is that OIS doesn't bring as much value to action camera
use cases and it comes with the significant downside of reduced durability.

~~~
endorphone
5-axis OIS system _absolutely_ correct for rotation (e.g. roll), as of course
sensor-shift and rotation is a component of OIS.

 _The point is not that EIS is better than OIS - the systems serve different
purposes_

They serve remarkably similar purposes and can be complimentary. It's actually
interesting because your claims sound like what Google said with the Pixel (1)
and its completely substandard EIS-based solution. With the pixel 2 they added
OIS and complement it with EIS. Everyone eventually gets to OIS + EIS. But
while they're trying to be cheap we hear the spiel about why they just don't
need OIS.

Because EIS alone is substandard unless you have a fantastically fast sensor
or perfect lighting. Which is why EIS samples are always on the brightest
possible days. It isn't by accident.

~~~
skookum
EIS is more akin to a poor-man's gimbal than it is to OIS, and that's the
purpose it serves in GoPros. One could argue that for sufficiently small range
of movement a gimbal and OIS can serve similar purposes _for stills
photography_ \- a gimbal after all is a form of external stabilization.
However EIS is not seriously applicable to stills photography as it does
nothing for a standalone capture and OIS cannot replace a gimbal (or EIS) for
video capture other than in very narrow scenarios where static support would
generally be a better solution.

It's obvious that OIS + EIS > EIS. However it's not that case that OIS > EIS
for all applications. One could argue that given just OIS one could apply EIS
in post, but that's just a different implementation of OIS + EIS.

As far as I know, the GoPro is fixed-focus - there's no moving parts in its
optical system. Adding mechanical stabilization whether optical or sensor-
based would reduce the durability of a system of which one of the main
criteria is being able to withstand repeated impacts. Maybe it's possible to
build a sufficiently ruggedized OIS solution, but it's not clear whether the
expense or size/weight of that would make it viable for action cameras.

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ryandrake
Not a GoPro-specific comment, but I am kind of shocked at the extent to which
cameras have become such an integral part of people's lives. When I was a kid,
cameras were these big things that you kept in the drawer for a once-a-year
vacation. Even as they got smaller and went digital, and then the marginal
cost to take a photo became zero, people didn't obsess over them and take
pictures everywhere. When the first mobile phones started to get built-in
cameras, people still weren't filming everything.

Some time in the last decade something changed, and now everyone seems to be
recording everything, including themselves, all the time. Recording themselves
shopping, recording themselves eating, recording every little event they go
to, every little mundane aspect of their lives, dashboard cams, helmet cams,
home "security" cameras that aren't really providing any security, just
recording everything. Last time we got to go on a vacation, I don't even think
my wife looked at anything we visited without having a screen and a camera in
between.

What's with this compulsion to get pictures of everything? Do people actually
go back and look at all these pictures and videos of themselves?

~~~
williamstein
Sharing experiences with other people is generally enjoyable for a lot of
people. Simple as that. Instagram, etc. make sharing very very easy. Most
people do not like to be alone when doing fun activities (hiking, biking,
skateboarding, etc.), and simply have way more fun doing those things with
other people. Being able to share photos and video provides or expands on that
little pleasure in life. If you're a loner (not saying you are), then this
might not make sense to you.

~~~
madeuptempacct
Optimistic. The other perspective is that people are trying to show off and
make their lives seem more glamorous/adventurous than they are. That's what I
see all the time.

~~~
subpixel
Riding the NYC subway is surreal these days. The majority (not a guess, an
observation) of people are spending 30-60 minutes each way experiencing waves
of desire, envy, and jealousy by scrolling through Instagram. It's like
science fiction.

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kawsper
I'm so sad that they killed off the Session line, it was a nice cube-shaped
GoPro, and it was great for quadcopters because the cube is easier to protect
with a mount, but they weren't making any money on selling them so they had to
go, you can see how it can be protected here:
[https://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-7sp5w/products/336/images/284...](https://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-7sp5w/products/336/images/2845/17759871_10158321544290276_2560208001425343615_n_1024x1024__39471.1493358457.1280.1280.jpg?c=2)

I know people that have bought 5+ GoPro Sessions because it is now being
removed from the market, but it has opened up for competitors to copy the
formfactor, but nothing comes near in my experience.

I hope we get good protective TPU mounts for the Hero 7, but I have my doubts
about flying around with a touchscreen, it is bound to crash and break :(

~~~
cptskippy
I bought a Session 4 as my first GoPro and based on the experience I don't
know if I'd buy another GoPro.

The camera can't be used while charging and the battery will die in a matter
of days (even with WiFi disabled) so there's no impromptu or spontaneous
usage. You have to know in advance that you'll need it and charge it up ahead
of time.

The camera frequently overheats and then locks up trying to shut itself down.

The camera is suppose to start recording with a button press and stop
recording with another press of the same button. It usually starts recording
fine but more often than not when you press the button again to stop the
camera will just lockup. If you don't hold the button for 10 seconds to force
a hard reset the battery will drain in a matter of minutes.

It's been a really poor user experience considering how nice the hardware
itself is and how much they market it as a premium product.

~~~
kawsper
That is really interesting and sad that you have had such a bad experience, I
own both a generation 4 and 5, and haven't had any issues at all.

I have only used mine in Denmark and the UK, so that is quite cold conditions
so that might be one reason why I haven't experienced any overheating issues.

I do seem to remember disabling bluetooth+wifi to save battery, but I do not
need to charge ahead of time.

Maybe you got a bad camera, and maybe that is why it wasn't profitable to
continue.

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huebnerob
Am I missing something or is this like exactly the same as the Hero 6, just
with a new number?

EDIT: By my eyes it looks like they improved the stabilization algorithm and
added live streaming? Still though, pretty light release. I was hoping for a
960fps HD mode like the Note 9.

~~~
mmartinson
I seems to me like breaking ground on gimbal-free stabilization is the killer
feature here, if it is impactful as the marketing video suggests. For mountain
biking, much of the video captured is too shaky to really watch without it
being super distracting.

~~~
y_molodtsov
I just doubt it's really can be as good as an optical stab in real life.

~~~
Fricken
It doesn't have to be as good, it just has to be easy, and not dependent on
extra hardware.

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toomanybeersies
As always on GoPro threads, I like to bring up the fact that the first GoPro,
released in 2004, was a 35mm film camera that you strapped to your wrist:
[https://petapixel.com/2018/02/02/first-gopro-35mm-film-
camer...](https://petapixel.com/2018/02/02/first-gopro-35mm-film-camera/)

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chooseaname
They claim it is waterproof to 33m. So I can leave it in a swimming pool
indefinitely and it's completely impervious to water?

Edit: not m, but ft. The question remains.

(I'm very skeptical of the waterproof claim. Words mean things and I am sure
they really mean water resistant.)

~~~
mholt
33ft, 10m. Not 33m.

~~~
fastball
But, PC is right, in that the Hero 7 is "rated" for at least pool depth, but
there isn't a time qualifier in the copy.

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heldrida
Sick! I was going to order the gopro 6 yesterday! What a surprise :)

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usaphp
You gotta admin those commercials they make are incredible well made and
informative.

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blipmusic
Considering this is HN, does anyone have any input on the latest GoPros vs
Garmin Virb Ultra 30, specifically in terms of telemetry formats vs general
camera quality? Garmin seems to be the data king here, but I'm curious as to
whether the GoPro is perhaps the better camera, and if so, whether this could
offset the differences between the data formats.

I should note that the telemetry is important for our usage, GPS logs
especially.

We have two Ultra 30s at work (used in humid areas, mostly at walking speed)
and with GPS turned on (obligatory) and 1440p/30fps video we get 90-110mins of
continuous footage before the battery is completely drained. Longer battery
life would be nice and every now and then we get hiccups/glitches (looks like
frames are skipped) with the setting above. Doesn't invalidate the footage in
any way and it's rare, but still annoying. Could be a firmware bug, really.
Audio is so-so, but that is to be expected (we haven't tried external
microphones yet, since the setup needs to be as simple as possible).

Would a GoPro help with any of the above or is it a similar experience in
terms of battery etc? If anything, the GoPro seems more rugged (for our needs,
the Virb needs a case). What about video quality? Interface? (I did read DC
Rainmaker's comparison[0] which was what made us choose the Virb, together
with the fact that there's an SDK for FIT and at the time of purchase GoPro
didn't have a Github repo[1])

GoPro's GPMF data is embedded within the video file, whereas Garmin's FIT[2]
format is separate and is logged to whether one is recording or not as long as
the camera is turned on. Both have their pros and cons, FIT seemingly being
the more flexible format (it's basically a big timeline with events attached)
but one also needs to identify what part of the data stream corresponds to
which video session and it's not as "linear" to read as GPMF (?). In FIT every
single logged coordinate is also timestamped (10Hz GPS), whereas it seems that
you only get one timestamp/second for GPMF coordinates (18Hz GPS).

I wrote a little parser to extract and integrate the relevant telemetry data
elsewhere and have started looking at doing the same for GPMF (I wanted to
write it from scratch in a language I'm learning). Since I have no recent
GoPro at hand it's been difficult finding raw samples for the GoPro, other
than the GPFM GitHub repo - youtube won't suffice since I need the original
video with the telemetry intact.

[0]: [https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/03/best-action-
cam-2017-gop...](https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/03/best-action-
cam-2017-gopro-hero5-black-vs-garmin-virb-ultra-30.html)

[1]: [https://github.com/gopro/gpmf-parser](https://github.com/gopro/gpmf-
parser)

[2]: SDK here [https://www.thisisant.com](https://www.thisisant.com)

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tbrock
I don’t understand why people go gaga over this stuff. It’s a camera in a
plastic box with a screw hole. Are there that many Richard Bransons out there?

Now that smartphones are increasingly becoming water proof I can’t see this
providing incremental value over a phone in a fancy case in the long run.

~~~
chrisseaton
A 720p Polaroid Cube and a Red Weapon 8k are both a 'camera in a box with some
screw holes'. You can make anything sound stupid by reducing it to a
simplistic description, but it's not contributing anything useful to the
discussion.

~~~
ratsimihah
Hahaha!

