

Europe's Square - jordanbrown
http://www.izettle.com/

======
anemic
I have one reader connected to my ipad. Got it for free so I had to try it. I
have accepted only one payment so far so not much experience about it, but
some comments:

For private individuals a facebook account is needed to accept payments.

The legal agreement is a mess, they even warn that your data can be
transferred to countries where privacy laws are not in par with european
standards and data is stored for 7 years

Location of the transaction is stored and cannot be turned off, it's unclear
why this is needed.

They seem to comply with PCI data security standards but are not audited
(yet?)

The customer must sign the transaction on the ipad screen with finger (even
harder with iphone). it's very hard to check that to the signature on the back
of the card. also the customer must type his/her email on the screen if they
want a receipt (there is no receipt printer). So each transaction takes a long
time.

So it's good for selling at fleamarkets and such but for serious business it's
no match for a payment terminal. Also if you don't already own iphone/ipad
then it's also more expensive.

~~~
yesbabyyes
> The customer must sign the transaction on the ipad screen with finger (even
> harder with iphone). it's very hard to check that to the signature on the
> back of the card.

In my experience, signing works really well. Also, in Sweden nobody checks the
signature. I don't even bother signing my card, and I can't understand how
anybody can read the signature on the card. I think it's happened once that
someone's wanted to check my signature against the card.

~~~
antr
I guess that checking the signature is a US thing, in the UK, Switzerland and
Spain if you don't pay with a chip & pin card they ask for ID, and that works
pretty fine security wise.

~~~
danellis
In my experience, checking the signature just doesn't happen in the US. In
fact, most of the time you seem to be given your card back before you even
give them the signed receipt.

Checking the signature was the norm in the UK before chip-and-PIN.

~~~
beagle3
I wrote "please ask for ID" instead of signing. In 4 years, I was asked to
show An ID exactly on once.

~~~
yesbabyyes
See <http://www.zug.com/pranks/credit/> \-- very funny!

------
lachyg
One thing that may not be too familiar to the Americans, but this looks a lot
sturdier (read:larger) because it isn't a swiper like Square. It is a chip
reader, see: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_and_PIN>

~~~
rmc
Heads up, If you're an American going to Europe, regular swipe only credit
cards won't work as often here. Nearly all point-of-sale credit card machines
require chip & pin. Or you'll wind up like some tourists in my local
supermarket unable to use their credit card.

~~~
oliwarner
This is nonsense (at least in the UK and France). Yes there is preference for
chip & pin but _every_ reader I've seen supports swipe & sign still. Chips
break, contacts corrode. It's there as a backup.

(And yes, this totally defeats the security aspect of C&P)

~~~
simonw
"(And yes, this totally defeats the security aspect of C&P)"

As I understand it, C&P isn't meant to be more secure for users - it's meant
to be more "secure" for banks, since if someone fakes your signature it's not
your fault (and the bank has to swallow the loss), but if someone gets hold of
your PIN it IS your fault.

------
hopeless
What's all this "sign with your finger" nonsense? With Chip & PIN cards (i.e.,
all our modern credit cards) you should just need the chip & PIN. Signatures
are only a backup authentication.

Also, signing with anything other than a pen and paper is still a disastrous
user experience (see every courier's PDA system ever built)

~~~
buro9
PIN keypads have to be secure... totally secure. Passing through the iPhone
isn't security.

For them to include a PIN entry system, they would need to do so on the chip
reader device itself (non-iPhone).

The keypads for PIN entry systems always hash the PIN before it leaves the
keypad... no other software gets the PIN.

If you cannot offer secure PIN entry, then you cannot offer PIN entry.

You can still take a signature, but now the burden of responsibility changes.
Fraud is covered by the merchants if you use signatures.

~~~
objclxt
A good example of this is the Apple Stores in Europe: like in the US, staff
use iPods to take orders and checkout. The difference is when it comes to
payment: instead of swiping the credit card and signing on the iPod screen,
transaction details are wirelessly sent to one of many Chip & PIN readers
around the store, and you then complete your purchase there.

~~~
thatjoshguy
Do they go to cashwrap, or do they have just 'standalone' chip+pin terminals
in the store?

~~~
ralphsaunders
In an Apple store they're often portable.

------
yesbabyyes
Swede here -- the company is Swedish and I have used it on several occasions,
as a payer. It works great. As others have mentioned, it reads the chip, and
is sturdy. Not using PIN though, you sign the receipt with your finger, which
works really well. You can also get the receipt via email.

Edit: they definitely support VISA.

~~~
aes256
Lack of Chip and PIN support is going to be a _major_ turn-off in much of the
European market...

~~~
suhailpatel
Exactly this. I've had a chip and pin card since they were introduced in the
UK and never had to sign anything related to payment. It's always a case of
entering your PIN on the terminal and authorise.

I was previously under the assumption that you can't authorise a payment via a
signature nowadays in the UK?

~~~
quarterto
From <http://www.chipandpin.co.uk/faqs/affect.html#retailer>:

    
    
      What if the retailer does not accept chip and PIN?
      Where the retailer has not upgraded to chip and PIN technology, you will be asked to
      follow the current card payment process using your signature to confirm the
      transaction.

~~~
dan1234
That site hasn't been updated since 2006 so I would rely on any information on
there.

------
sparknlaunch12
Really like efforts to make payments and secure transactions easier however
not sure how this will compete with the big boys (banks etc).

For example Visa offer contact less payments for merchants via pay wave.

Barclays have payments from your smart phone via ping it.

Then there is nfc technology.

Just trying to test the longevity of this product. Does it alleviate the pain
of using a card and remembering a pin.

Edit: also worth mentioning Paypal, Barclays Paytag.

------
quarterto
Looks good. I always thought the Square dongle looked a bit flimsy. This looks
much more professional.

On the other hand, what the fuck is with that name? iZettle? What's a zettle
when it's at home?

~~~
unwind
The name was pretty clear to me, I read it as a pun/play on the verb "to
settle", i.e. to perform a financial transaction in order to resolve a debt.

You triggered my curiousity, though: what's your (mis)interpretation? I don't
understand the reference to "at home" at all, and basic Googling failed to
resolve it.

Another point about their communications is that their main (English) front
page copy says "[...] is as easy as pie", an idiomatic expression that to me
_screams_ of the US, which was funny because of the European angle.

It seems they're actually fellow Swedes (yay); I've seen some ads for their
card reader in local press, too. The reader was then coupled with (if I recall
correctly) a phone with a business-type subscription, the ad was by one of the
local/Nordic cell phone operators. Interesting.

~~~
quarterto
"When it's at home" is a Britishism meaning "basically":
<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/when_its_at_home>.

We use "easy as pie" in the UK too, although it's probably an American import.
(EDIT: almost certainly 19th century American. Mark Twain used similar phrases
<http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/as-easy-as-pie.html>)

I think maybe my accent has a much harder Z than they were anticipating.

~~~
unwind
Thanks! You have a missing apostrophe in your link, took me a while to figure
that out. :) The proper link is
<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/when_it%27s_at_home>.

------
bede
However successful this product becomes (which looks doubtful given its
dependence upon signatures), its irritating generic web 2.0 startup name will
prevent me from ever taking it seriously.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Square has a good product name, because it's memorable, and it fits the device
(it's square!)

On the other hand, iZettle is neither memorable, nor makes any sense.

~~~
arethuza
"iZettle is neither memorable, nor makes any sense"

YMMV - I thinks it's both memorable and makes sense (sounds like "I settle").
Also, I've never seen a Square device so their domain isn't memorable to me!

------
fonzie
Doesn't seem to accept Visa at the moment. As much as I like the idea (despite
the name) of a European Square, not accepting Visa is less than optimal,
especially as they try to gain traction.

~~~
Tim-Boss
[https://izettle.desk.com/customer/en_us/portal/articles/5311...](https://izettle.desk.com/customer/en_us/portal/articles/531106-which-
cards-can-i-accept-with-izettle-#)

~~~
fonzie
I read that. Hence why I said at the moment. It'd be great for them to get it
sooner rather than later. At least in the UK, most basic accounts issue Visa
debit cards and a lot of the basic credit cards are also Visa.

------
diggan
Tried it with an iPhone and it worked great. I hope iZettle will be developed
for Android also, since the phone I'm always carrying is running Android.

~~~
robmcm
I would be worried letting someone read my card information via an Android
phone. Malware would easily be able to sit in the background and intercept
information from the reader. At least on iOS you know any interception would
have to be on transmition from the app to the server, which is not all client
side.

Perhaps that's a little unfair. I guess as more and more apps and devices
become avaliable for reading you card inforamtion more and more opportunities
exist for stealing your info.

~~~
bnr
How about jailbroken iPhones? Do you check the vendor/platform of the CC
reader in every shop before paying?

~~~
robmcm
Yes very true, and you could easily hack once of the physical readers they use
now. Almost every shop I go into seems to have a different make or model of
card reader.

I guess with Android there is more change of the device owner not knownig it's
there, it's much easier to say phish someone into installing malware onto an
Android device than it is to jailbrake their iOS phone.

I wouldn't like to be in the shoes of fraud departments right now...

------
johanbrook
Also, check out the newly announced Swish (<https://www.getswish.com>, site in
Swedish), which offers the same functionality, but with cooperation with
several major banks. It seems to bypass swiping credit cards completely, by
communicating wirelessly with cell phone numbers.

------
jermaink
Economically, I can understand that people start to copy concepts and transfer
good ideas into their homecountry. That´s nothing new - you can find that
across human history and it was often connected to progress. Basically,
copycats act like spice merchants in late centuries. They scout for some new
spices and try to find out if they can match or create demand in other regions
of the world.

However, what I really dislike is when people also start copy the look and
feel of the innovator´s website. I think we should apply the same moral values
to startup ideas as we do in science: That implies to create your own work,
not to rephrase and to mention the original source. This piece might be
missing in the system.

~~~
tomp
What do you mean? iSettle's and Square's websites look just as much alike as
any recent startups'...

~~~
jermaink
Honestly, I tend to say that the website clearly shows a lot (!) of elements
and interactions that are derived from Square. And it does not look like a co-
existent happenstance.

~~~
trin_
certain product-websites tend to converge ... not because noone is creative
but they work. there's absolutely no sense for them to create a totally
different page that may not work as good just because they want to be
different.

------
spydre100
Their is another company that is breaking into this market in US, Brazil and
Europe. They are working on making it easy to accept cards in Europe and also
getting the governmental approval for coupon fiscal in Brazil. The company
Tillify.com are also rolling native apps and web apps for all devices that
work consumer side and vendor side, They are also using the mobile phone
number as a digital id to enroll consumers into their platform.

------
spydre100
In Europe the card acceptance system will need to read the chip, but not enter
the pin. The best solution is to accept the signature on the panel. This is
what izettle have done. Its a u-turn on chip and pin but the only way it can
be done as you cant pass the pin through the app for security issues. In
larger outlets no doubt a wired card reader will be used and the pin will be
entered into that reader as current systems do.

------
grimborg
How much are the payment fees? I couldn't find it on their website. And what
about the 30% Apple Tax?

~~~
Chrono
2.75% with MasterCard, Visa and Diners Club. 3.75% with AMEX

without a card reader its 1.5 SEK + 3.5%

------
Newky
Does anyone know whether this is only Visa payments or does it support
maestro/laser cards also?

------
spydre100
I think everyone here is missing the point. The dongle and the card swipe/read
is merely a short term Trojan horse into changing payment. Further more it is
a means to the end of cash payments. If you imagine that these apps will
become the "Facebook" of commerce and how that can happen you will see the
bigger picture. These apps allow everyone to pass currency using a device,
sure they need a card right now as that is the "old skool" method we all
respect. Once the card is swipped their is no need to do it ever again. Both
parties are registered on the app and thus the "mobile wallet" has been
created. Next they will role out "self serve" apps and cardless payment. What
we are talking about here is merely a means to an end. Sadly it also means
that these apps will Facebook commerce and while they are doing that they will
put eCommerce on the back seat. Wait and see what happens.

------
sgt
This will be perfect for my dad's art gallery. Fewer and fewer people bring
cash a long so he loses out on sales that way. It's a very small art gallery
and conventional payment terminals are too expensive to buy/hire.

------
spydre100
<http://www.tillify.com>

