
European Parliament passes net neutrality law - xmpir
http://gigaom.com/2014/04/03/european-parliament-passes-strong-net-neutrality-law-along-with-major-roaming-reforms/
======
johansch
Here's a kind of sickening statement:

'"Europe's telecoms operators are facing decreasing revenues ... compared with
operators in the U.S. and Asia," said the GSM Association, an industry group
for mobile phone companies. In a statement signed by director Anne Bouverot,
the group said European laws are "impairing their ability to invest in the
infrastructure required to put Europe back on the path to growth and jobs."'

[http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/european-
parliame...](http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/european-parliament-
adopts-net-neutrality-law-23172382)

One example of these "poor companies":

TeliaSonera: 1.69 billion euros in profit out of a 2.99 billion euro revenue
(2013)

Edit: Sorry, yearly revenue was about 11.6 billion euro.

~~~
danielweber
_TeliaSonera: 1.69 billion euros in profit out of a 2.99 billion euro revenue
(2013)_

I'm having trouble believing those numbers. I found a source that agrees with
you [1] but Bloomberg charts show only a ~10% profit margin. [2] I wonder if
the reporter in [1] confused annual revenue with quarterly revenue from this
Bloomberg article. [3]

EDIT: The reporter in [1] isn't wrong, but people misreading the first
paragraph is probably the source of the confusion spreading across the
Internet. Read down a few paragraphs and they compare 4th quarter net profit
to 4th quarter revenue, which is roughly 10%.

Also, here is the profit & loss statement from 2013. [4] Annual revenue is
about 104 billion kronor, net income is about 15 billion kronor.

[1] [http://www.thelocal.se/20140130/beleaguered-teliasonera-
took...](http://www.thelocal.se/20140130/beleaguered-teliasonera-took-profit-
tumble-in-2013)

[2]
[http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/TLSN:SS](http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/TLSN:SS)

[3] [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-30/teliasonera-
profit-...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-30/teliasonera-profit-
misses-estimates-on-falling-broadband-mobile.html)

[4]
[http://markets.ft.com/research/Markets/Tearsheets/Financials...](http://markets.ft.com/research/Markets/Tearsheets/Financials?s=TLSN:STO&subview=IncomeStatement)

~~~
johansch
You're right, I was fooled by that first article's sneaky mixing of quarterly
and annual numbers in the same sentence.

"The group's annual net profit fell by 25 percent to 14.97 billion kronor
(1.69 billion euros, $2.3 billion), while revenue dropped by three percent to
26.5 billion kronor."

Still, these look like healthy numbers, and not like they are bleeding.

------
mercurial
> mobile carrier industry body the GSMA said it “recognises the efforts of
> Rapporteur Pilar del Castillo to develop a constructive response to the
> Commission’s Connected Continent proposals but believes that the overall
> package fails to address the key challenge of stimulating growth and
> investment.”

I'll take that as a ringing endorsement and a strong sign that the net
neutrality law is good for consumers. Good job on writing these amendments and
getting them to pass, left-wing MEPs!

~~~
timthorn
I think that's more a response to the ban on intraEU roaming charges than net
neutrality...

~~~
lclarkmichalek
If they're still bitter about that, then they need to grow up. The writing has
been on the wall for a _long_ time about the death of EU roaming charges. Some
companies were already bragging about not charging any well prior to the ban

------
bayesianhorse
I think the EU is getting an amazing amount of work done, if you consider that
it consists of 28 nation states which went to war with each other regularly
for centuries up to a couple of decades ago...

~~~
Systemic33
And some of them are still culturally at war ;)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark%E2%80%93Sweden_relation...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark%E2%80%93Sweden_relations)

~~~
mercurial
I don't know. Danish news always go "X is bad in Denmark. Meanwhile, X is
really good in Sweden."

~~~
baq
there's a lot of 'grass is greener on the other side' in all of europe, this
is probably the case here.

~~~
mcv
And it used to be that we tried to take their grass by conquest. Now we just
go there on vacation.

------
Morgawr
These are great news, I am a big supporter for net neutrality, however I am a
bit concerned about one small detail:

>“Net neutrality” means the principle according to which all internet traffic
is treated equally, without discrimination, restriction or interference,
independently of its sender, recipient, type, content, device, service or
application.

I wonder how this will work in case of malicious attacks, ddos, disruptive
requests and packets/connections with the sole purpose of disrupting the
normal usage of the net. Blocking these at isp level is not a bad idea, but
how deep does this rabbit hole go?

~~~
MatthewWilkes
This doesn't extend to protecting illegal acts from interference.

~~~
higherpurpose
By that logic ISPs could throttle or block torrenting or Bitcoin if they are
"illegal" in some country.

~~~
rvschuilenburg
That is correct. In The Netherlands we already have net neutrality, but this
hasn't stopped the Pirate Bay from being blocked. However, try to prove to a
judge the entire protocol is illegal and should be blocked.

~~~
ErikHuisman
Initially the court decided that blocking all subscribers went too far but
BREIN wasn’t satisfied and took the case to a full trial, which they won. Both
Ziggo and XS4ALL filed subsequent appeals, arguing that the blockade was
ineffective and denied subscribers’ free access to information.

Today the Court of The Hague released its verdict which sides with the
Internet providers.

In its ruling the Court states that the Pirate Bay blockade is
disproportionate and ineffective, citing TNO research and the Baywatch report
of the University of Amsterdam. As a result, the blockade was found to hinder
the Internet providers’ entrepreneurial freedoms.

jan 2014

~~~
Morgawr
These are great "news" (quotes cause they aren't exactly.. new) which I didn't
know before. As an expat living in Amsterdam, it makes me happy, thanks for
sharing!

------
NicoJuicy
It was a close call... Neelie Kroes didn't want this. But against
expectations, democracy won.. That doesn't happen much in the world (Eg. What
Karel De Gucht tried / did ).

All with all, i'm very glad this happened! It gave me some faith again in
Europe as a regulator (i'm from Belgium ).

(still dissappointed in Neelie Kroes though, she has some very good ideas...
Opposing net neutrality was definetly a bad idea)

~~~
NicoJuicy
PS. Some examples of good ideas:

\- Transforming libraries in hackerspaces (this is one of the best ideas i
ever came accross)

\- Removing roaming (expensive cell phone calls in foreign countries, but in
Europe, we are all different countries. 9000 € for checking your mail and
etc... was not an exception). Some people who regulary stay in foreign
countries (work, business, long vacation, .. get a mobile subscription in that
country, so they would have 2 phone numbers). But this should be fixed in 2016
(still a long time though)

\- PRO net neutrality (some years ago, currently she changed her opinion for
an unknown reason :
[http://ec.europa.eu/commission_2010-2014/kroes/en/blog/netne...](http://ec.europa.eu/commission_2010-2014/kroes/en/blog/netneutrality)
)

~~~
shdon
On the whole, I think she does good work. I'm willing to give her the benefit
of the doubt that she genuinely thought the text as proposed would
sufficiently protect net neutrality or at least underestimated the holes it
left. But even if she didn't, it is good to see that parliament did its job
and corrected the mistakes made by the legislators.

~~~
mcv
She's the only Eurocommissioner that I constantly see fighting for all sorts
of good causes. The others barely register or seem to be a net negative. I
like Kroes a lot, but every once in a while, she suddenly supports something
that seems quite the opposite of her usual position. Weirdly out of character.
And I often find myself wondering if maybe there's something else at play in
the background.

~~~
NicoJuicy
That's exactly the same thing as i thought...

And the opposite of net neutrality is a really big deal. She had contacts with
telecom though for roaming, perhaps she had to change position in favor of net
neutrality in return of dropping roaming costs in Europe?

(just thinking out loud)

------
hendrik-xdest
I wouldn't give too much on this just yet. From the information in the article
I can't tell if the word "strong" is correct for what was passed today.

If anything, an indicator that Neelie Kroes is happy with the result might
point to a weak law that won't help net neutrality at all. We might not have
the "Specialised services" part in there anymore. Yet, let's wait until the
dust settles and some people have read the complete text before we celebrate.

Also, as we speak, the text that didn't make it might already have been
inserted in the US-EU trade agreement that is discussed behind closed doors at
the moment. Wouldn't be the first time that the same words were dismissed
first and than added in a different law. ACTA (Anti-Counterfeiting Trade
Agreement) was dismissed and then added to a treaty between the EU and Canada.

~~~
Silhouette
Would you elaborate on your final paragraph, please? I wasn't aware of either
a closed-door US-EU trade agreement in the works, or any back room ACTA-style
deal in a Canada-EU treaty.

~~~
mcintyre1994
The US-EU trade agreement may refer to TTIP, whose contents do seem to be
secret at the moment. [http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-
focus/ttip/](http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/)

------
mschuster91
Well then, finally a point to prove to anti-EU activists (UK: UKIP, DE: AfD,
etc.) why having the European Union actually _is_ important and the European
Parliament isn't just a paper tiger regulating the population to death.

(Granted, most European laws ARE regulation to death, but this is a good
starting point...)

------
kzrdude
I'm so happy how Andersdotter/@teirdes has arrived in Brussels. She is already
"e-communications" spokesperson for the Greens/EFA group in the EP:
[http://www.greens-efa.eu/electronic-
communications-12163.htm...](http://www.greens-efa.eu/electronic-
communications-12163.html) and I believe that they have a very powerful
collaboration on privacy and other pirate issues

~~~
mercurial
I actually met her last year at a conference. Very intelligent and well-
spoken.

~~~
kzrdude
Yeah, it's wonderful, a young person talking about internet issues I care
about, just listen
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiNH3MCFkBg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiNH3MCFkBg)

Right now I'm of course nervous for the election, and I hope that she will
keep her mandate.

She's clearly got a visionary mind, and uses every opportunity to stress the
need for evidence-based policy.

~~~
mercurial
I'd be happy to give her my vote, but I'm in the wrong country.

------
jcfrei
Roaming charges will effectively be dropped on the 15th December 2015. Src:
[http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/news-
room/content/2014...](http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/news-
room/content/20140331IPR41232/html/Ensure-open-access-for-internet-service-
suppliers-and-ban-roaming-fees-say-MEPs)

~~~
thisiswrong
So much is changing in the tech world. I hope that by dec 2015 we have
incentivised mesh networks, thus making centralized telcos obsolete.

------
abvdasker
I think this can also be taken as good news in the US. Passing these laws
makes Europe a very attractive place to put an internet service.

It may be wishful thinking, but my hope is that this form of international
competition motivates US legislators to pass similar net-neutrality laws to
keep from losing start-ups and tech companies to Europe.

------
vixen99
Roaming charges: I predict the telecomms will be increasing their general
charges to make good losses on roaming.

"Infrastructure and spectrum are expensive, and these costs need to be
recouped somehow. Right now, the mobile operators are a bit stuck into low
domestic data prices. So the money has to be clawed back from roaming
customers instead".

The reversal of this policy will mean that the non-traveling public will
subsidize travelers. Great for those voting and attending the EU Parliament
among others. Not so hot for the rest.

~~~
sveme
Possible, but I would say it will rather create a much fiercer competition:
Differences between domestic rates and non-domestic rates are what kept the
European Telecoms market from becoming truly European. As a German, the only
viable option if I am spending most my time within Germany was to go with a
German carrier. Now with the removal of roaming charges, the EU becomes the
domestic market and in principle I could shop around other EU countries to
find the best deal. Austria for example has some really good deals, so maybe I
will go with a carrier from there. And with SEPA even billing should not be an
issue.

The other (intended) thing this will spur is further consolidation of the EU
Telecoms market as there will suddenly be a much larger number of competing
players on the market. As I said, in principle Austrian Telecoms are now for
the first time directly competing for customers with Spanish Telecoms in
Germany, so I guess we'll see a lot more mergers in the close future. Which
might turn out to be anticompetitive in the long run, mind.

~~~
M2Ys4U
I'm pretty sure that higher prices for international calls have _not_ been
abolished, though, which puts a dent in the idea of shopping around for the
best deal.

Though, I suppose you could buy multiple SIMs and switch them around as needed
now.

~~~
sveme
To my understanding calls from your own country to another EU country are also
covered by this:
[http://ec.europa.eu/news/science/130916_en.htm](http://ec.europa.eu/news/science/130916_en.htm)

The quote: >International call charges would be capped at the price of a long-
distance domestic call and intra-EU mobile calls at €0.19 per minute (plus
VAT).

~~~
M2Ys4U
Ah, I'm glad to be proven wrong on this one!

Still, it's a cap not a complete abolishment so there's still some work to be
done.

------
barking
A couple of popular acts emanating from the EU parliament just recently.

Couldn't be anything to do with the European parliament elections coming up
this summer could it?

Our local MEP was on radio claiming credit for the smartphone recharger
harmonization measure just recently. When queried about loopholes in the act
that effectively allow manufacturers to sidestep the issue she revealed
herself to be clueless.

------
thomasahle
> Providers of internet access to end-users shall not discriminate between
> functionally equivalent services and applications.

This means they can still throttle torrents, right?

~~~
Bulk70
Well, based on that quote they can throttle what they want - but they have to
do it equally across all similar applications. So for example they can't
throttle Youtube and not throttle Netflix - they have to throttle both (or
neither).

~~~
akie
Well, that depends on your interpretation of "functionally equivalent". Is
Youtube functionally equivalent with Netflix?

~~~
bayesianhorse
Spam-Emails, DDOS attacks and Http Traffic aren't functionally equivalent,
which is probably the point.

I think the definition will also include the question of competition between
the traffic streams. Youtube and Netflix are competitors, whereas an E-Mail
Service and a Gaming Service isn't.

Net Neutrality should not mean we have to build the infrastructure that can
faithfully execute DDOS attacks. Now, if we want to build the infrastructure
to let all internet users stream 4K Video 24/7, is a whole other question...

------
bpeel
I wonder if we could interpret this to mean that it would be illegal for ISPs
not to provide IPv6. It is just internet traffic after all.

------
_asciiker_
Why do I get the feeling that most of these comments are basically pointing
out faults in EU instead of the news itself which is of great relevancy to all
of us.

I understand the audience here is mostly American but shouldn't we really by
cheering this achievement and try to convince US senators to follow the lead?

US is the one who is behind right now. Neutrally speaking.

------
netcan
If we didn't already have such a shoddy history with national telecoms (and
other infrastructure company), I would be in favor of them.

It's so unsatisfying to think that this ugly government in bed with big
oligopolies, regulators, lobbying and nonsense could be the optimal solution.
yuck.

------
contulluipeste
It never stops to amaze me - what does have Europe that other places don't?

...anyway, I'm just glad and thankful to be born in Europe!

------
stcredzero
Are European laws a bellwether for US laws? I hope so.

------
higherpurpose
They're still allowed to have premium channels for their TV service and such.
Isn't that not very "net neutrality"-like?

~~~
pjc50
TV is not internet. You can run TV over internet, but that's a service being
provided over the internet. TV has never been a universal access medium.

------
timthorn
From first reading, this makes it look as if ISPs will be unable to offer eg
elevated weighting to specific VoIP traffic unless that's offered by the ISP
themselves. I want my VoIP trunks to my exchange to have better QoS than my
Skype chats.

I'm not convinced this is a good thing.

~~~
icebraining
_I want my VoIP trunks to my exchange to have better QoS than my Skype chats._

Then configure your router to do so?

~~~
timthorn
That works for my link from the PoP to my router, but not beyond the PoP.

