
AMD Launches 12 Desktop Renoir Ryzen 4000G Series APUs: But You Can’t Buy Them - jiripospisil
https://www.anandtech.com/show/15921/amd-launches-12-desktop-renoir-ryzen-4000g-series-apus-but-you-cant-buy-them
======
nazgulsenpai
I just got a Lenovo V14 Ryzen 5 4500U laotop yesterday and this thing is
amazing. It benchmarks almost as high as my Ryzen 5 1600 desktop PC, but it
feels so much faster in actual everyday use.

To those who scoff at repurposed laptop parts being used in desktop systems, I
don't think that's going to be an issue here because these 4000 series APUs
have outstanding performance.

I'm not an Intel fan and have a tendency to root for the underdog so I may
have an inherent bias here. The fact that Intel not only has competition, but
has in alot of arenas been bested by AMD should only mean good things for the
health of the overall market.

~~~
blackaspen
I've got an X13 AMD with the 4750U and 32GB of RAM and it just dramatically
outperforms anything else I've used. It's crazy. I bought it because I wanted
a step-up from Intel CPUs that was worthwhile from a 7th gen i5, and this is
over 5 times as fast and feels like it.

~~~
488643689
This causes me pain. I really, really want an AMD Thinkpad, but NONE of them
has a 2k or 4k display. I tested the FHD ones and I just can't bare it/feel
alright dropping 1.3k€ on FHD in 2020. No sure what to do now :(

~~~
capitol_
The IdeaPad S540-13ARE is spec'ed with a 2560x1600 screen:
[https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/IdeaPad/IdeaPad_S54013ARE](https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/IdeaPad/IdeaPad_S54013ARE)

But seems very hard to find a place that actually sells it around here
(Norway).

~~~
488643689
Yeah, but IdeaPad is not ThinkPad... I would only do education offers and the
non ThinkPads don't come with 3 years of onsite premium support. The IdeaPad
does come edu discounted tho.

------
wahern
I wonder what PC Engines will do to replace AMD's Jaguar APU/SoC. All of AMD's
new SoCs seem to be too hot for passive cooling, at least without huge fins.

I can't find the link, but there were recent discussions (by Red Hat? GCC?
clang?) about changing the default minimum supported ISA. There were several
proposals, IIRC, with Jaguar right in the middle of the proffered choices, and
possibly the best choice for now. But I imagine if that discussion were to
happen 2 or 3 years down the road, even Jaguar might not make the cut.

At the low end of TDP, Intel still reigns supreme. But their Atom lineup makes
far too many compromises, excluding various ISA extensions to price
differentiate. And Soekris got burned with their net6501 and defective Atom
chips, so I imagine Intel isn't that great a partner for small companies. (I
doubt AMD is, either, given the firmware pain people have, but at least their
products work.)

~~~
greggyb
There is a delightful market of very small fanless boxes on AliExpress that
typically just throws a 15W laptop CPU into an aluminum case. Turns out if you
slap a couple pounds of aluminum onto the CPU, it will stay pretty cool. I
have a small box with an i5-5200U (15W part) that includes two NICs. This runs
as my router and firewal at home. It sits around 40C. It might throttle if I
ran heavy workloads on it, but it's great as a small always-on PC.

Here's a search to get you started, and you can refine from there:
[https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=S...](https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20200721073945&SearchText=fanless+mini+computer)

~~~
wahern
That's the competition that ultimately ate Soekris' market--they never could
recover after the net6501 debacle, and maybe would have exited regardless.

But what Soekris offered and PC Engines still offers is ostensibly greater
consistency and reliability, a better firmware story, and a proven commitment
to long term availability and support of the platform. PC Engines still sells
their ALIX model, and Soekris Europe still has net5501 boards in stock. The
ALIX and net5501 are both ~15 years old, I think.

A substantial portion, if not most of PC Engines' business, comes from small
vendors building custom embedded solutions, such as WiFi base stations. The
developer/hobbyist community loves PC Engines because it takes the guesswork
out of things. The hardware will always be well supported by FOSS--because of
PC Engines' efforts, and because there are plenty of FreeBSD, Linux, OpenBSD,
etc developers with a box--and there's solid brand recognition regarding
quality. (Also, serial!) The downside is that the specs are antiquated almost
from day 1, but for basic chores still adequate.

~~~
greggyb
I hear you on the reliability of a known and long-tenured vendor.

I got one of the AliExpress ones, because I wasn't originally certain what it
would be used for. At one point it was my primary PC, and it performed
silently and as well as or better than a same-specced laptop.

The support is nonexistent, but compatibility is pretty good. These mini PCs
are just taking generic laptop motherboard and CPU assemblies (probably the
same you'd find in a Clevo or similar ODM machine). I wouldn't use one for
something mission critical, but it worked great as a silent desktop and it has
been a (super overpowered) router box as well.

~~~
pdimitar
Do you use pfSense as a router, or something else?

I am on the fence of not buying Mikrotik or Ubiquiti and just get one of these
boxes you mentioned. But I am not a network admin and have no clue about
network protocols (yet).

My main idea is to return to Android but have very strict blacklists on my
router machine so as to preserve privacy the best I can. And while Mikrotik
routers can import various blacklists -- and even auto-update them! -- I am
still not 100% sure about it and I wonder if I should take the leap to a small
pfSense box that I control completely.

Do you have any opinion on this?

~~~
greggyb
I run the latest OpenBSD stable and several utilities for myself.

The router and firewall is composed of just standard PF and a config I've
built myself based on the networking FAQ.

I also have a bastion host for my home LAN, local DNS caching, a syncthing
server, and some useful cron jobs. My goal is to also use it for a home
automation hub, but all of those projects are in the future.

~~~
pdimitar
Thank you. Do you have observations on how easy it is to add a WiFi access
point to a pfSense box? I've read some obscure posts on Reddit claiming that
it's a hassle and that's the main that scares me.

~~~
greggyb
I've never used pfSense, so couldn't tell you.

If you are referring to adding a wireless NIC to the pfSense machine and
having that box be a combination router/firewall/AP, the hardware side is
easy. Wireless NICs are trivial to install - just plug in and run an antenna
somewhere useful.

From a software side, it's really easy to configure an AP in OpenBSD - just a
quick ifconfig. I have no clue if pfSense supports this sort of config through
their management interface. I would assume yes, because it seems basic.

If, on the other hand, you are talking about having a discrete AP as a
different piece of hardware on your network, this is also straightforward. I
have both a DD-WRT flashed Trendnet router/AP acting as a non-routing AP and
some Ubiquiti APs on my network.

Ubiquiti stuff is trivial - just plug it in and configure through their
management interface.

The DD-WRT was a bit more work, because it wants to be a router by default.
It's easy enough to turn off its router and just run as an ethernet switch +
wireless bridge. I had to do some searching for a guide that indicated the
right settings, but it was easy enough once I knew what needed to change.

All of my home networking setup was my education in networking. I did this
with no significant experience prior, except some high level theoretical
knowledge, and having messed around in a consumer router/AP's settings before.

Honestly, I'd say just give it a try. Don't be afraid to do some searching and
some trial and error. And if it doesn't work out, return the stuff and buy the
full gamut from a vendor that sells networking gear with a good interface. I
like Ubiquiti equipment from my personal experience with it, but I haven't
used other vendors to give you any comparison.

------
Jonnax
They said they're going to be doing something for retail consumers soon.

Their standard desktop CPUs are flying off the shelves.

I imagine there's only so much capacity for chip building.

~~~
qayxc
The main reason is simply market share - the DYI APU market is very small
compared to the system builder market.

So if 80% of their APUs end up in prebuilt systems anyway, it makes sense for
them to focus on that market.

~~~
bjoli
Nothing that I do requires a discrete GPU. I want an integrated GPU that can
drive a 4k screen without input lag at 60fps.

It kills me that there are no good AMD offerings.

~~~
spuz
So the 4000G series should be great for you, right?

~~~
bjoli
Yup. Kind of bummed to see that it is mostly for OEMs though.

------
numpad0
Some will be available for individual purchases in some markets[0] if you
absolutely must have them:

Launches 8/8 11:00(JST)

Ryzen 7 PRO 4750G ¥39,980($413 w/tax)

Ryzen 5 PRO 4650G ¥26,980($279, same)

Ryzen 3 PRO 4350G ¥19,980($207, same)

JPY prices are MSRP before tax(10%) [0]:
[https://www.gdm.or.jp/pressrelease/2020/0721/356407](https://www.gdm.or.jp/pressrelease/2020/0721/356407)

------
rconti
> The AMD Accelerated Processing Unit (APU), formerly known as Fusion, is the
> marketing term for a series of 64-bit microprocessors from Advanced Micro
> Devices (AMD), designed to act as a central processing unit (CPU) and
> graphics processing unit (GPU) on a single die

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Accelerated_Processing_Uni...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Accelerated_Processing_Unit)

------
pella
EU ( [https://www.centralpoint.nl/](https://www.centralpoint.nl/) prices )

\- AMD Ryzen 3 PRO 4350G - 4.0GHz (Tray) - 151,- EUR

\- AMD Ryzen 3 PRO 4350G - 4.0GHz (MPK) - 194,- EUR

\- AMD Ryzen 5 PRO 4650G - 4.2GHz (Tray) - 214,- EUR

\- AMD Ryzen 5 PRO 4650G - 4.2GHz (MPK) - 276,- EUR

\- AMD Ryzen 7 PRO 4750G - 4.4GHz (Tray) - 313,- EUR [1]

\- AMD Ryzen 7 PRO 4750G - 4.4GHz (MPK) - 405,- EUR [1]

\-----------

[1]

[https://www.centralpoint.nl/zoeken/amd%2520ryzen%25207%2520p...](https://www.centralpoint.nl/zoeken/amd%2520ryzen%25207%2520pro%25204750g/)

------
onli
It's a bit funny that one of the problems these APUs have is that the gpu
power is linked to the cpu power. The 4700G has more Vega CUs than the 4300G,
which really is a pity for gamers that are interested in an APU to get a cheap
gaming capable system, and unnecessary for those that want a strong processor
with just some integrated graphics and would be just fine with the weaker
graphics module. It would be nice if you could separate the processor and the
graphics part and just mix them as needed... ;)

------
jeffbee
Anyone know a good workstation story for AMD? I'd really like to have a
development workstation with an EPYC CPU (like the 7302P) and a motherboard
that actually supports ECC, DDR4-3200, and PCIe 4.0. All I can find are not-
yet-launched products like the Supermicro H12 mobo. Whitebox system
integrators are shipping older Zen-compatible mobos that don't have PCIe 4 and
3200MHz memory, and there don't seem to be any OEMs in the game (Dell, HP,
Lenovo are all Intel-only).

~~~
juergbi
Do you need RDIMM/LRDIMM or would ECC UDIMM suffice? If the latter, have you
considered a Ryzen 3950X or a Threadripper 3960X? There are plenty of
X570/TRX40 motherboards that properly support ECC UDIMM (but there are also
some that don't).

If you need RDIMM/LRDIMM the only current AMD alternative to EPYC is the
recently announced Threadripper Pro. Launch partner is Lenovo with the
ThinkStation P620 where you can get 12-64 cores with up to 1 TB of RAM.
Expected to be available in September.

~~~
jeffbee
I don't need a ton of memory so whatever DIMMs are electrically compatible
with the CPU will do the job (I imagine that 8 DIMMs of 8GB each is common?).
I want it as a development platform for this PCIe 4 peripheral, so that's a
hard requirement, and I would like if it resembles a production server as much
as possible, so 8 channels at 3200MHz is desirable.

~~~
juergbi
TRX40 with a Threadripper 3960X supports PCIe 4.0 (64 CPU lanes) and 8x ECC
UDIMM. This would be a quad channel configuration (2 DIMMs per channel), not 8
channels and DDR4-3200 ECC UDIMM may be hard to find at retail. Threadripper
is based on the same silicon as EPYC, though, so it may be close enough for
your purpose. ASRock TRX40 Taichi, ASUS Prime TRX40-Pro or maybe ASRock Rack
TRX40D8 could be a suitable motherboard.

Threadripper Pro will be even closer to EPYC with 8 memory channels, 128 PCIe
4.0 lanes and RDIMM/LRDIMM support. However, you'd have to wait until
September and the Lenovo ThinkStation P620 may be the only choice at time of
launch.

------
Tade0
_AMD states that the initial release of Ryzen 4000G hardware is for OEMs like
Dell and HP only for their pre-built systems._

They did something similar with the 4xxxHS series for laptops - Asus has
exclusivity over those for the time being.

------
jjice
Anyone have an idea if these could possibly have enough power for a media PC?
I'm looking to handle at least 2 1080p transcodes via Jellyfin/Plex. My
current plan was to get an old PC and toss an old graphics card in it, but
these could be a great alternative.

~~~
wjossey
It’s possible, but you’d be better off spending the $50 on a true GPU in
almost all situations and using it in lieu of the onboard graphics. Just from
a lifespan perspective on the CPU, better to offload that work and not pin the
CPU for hours while you’re watching movies :)

~~~
Klinky
The CPU lifespan should not be depleted by using the built-in GPU or running
100% for extended periods.

~~~
ClumsyPilot
Nobody i have ever met has ever hit the lifespan limits of their CPU before
that CPU was hopelessly outdated. CPUs just do not break, motherboard / RAM /
powersupply etc. Will always die before

------
ramshanker
Eagerly awaiting a mini PC with these chips. Hope DELL/HP come up with an
option soon.

~~~
CyberDildonics
You can already build a computer that is basically the size of a miniITX
motherboard by buying a $50 case, an external AC/DC power supply of 12v with
10-20 amps and a low profile noctua heat pipe cooler.

------
rbanffy
They mean you can't buy without a computer.

~~~
brian_herman__
Actually from the article "Just to be clear, AMD specified OEM and not system
integrators (SIs). On our call, AMD clarified that the market for its APUs is
skewed very heavily towards the big mass-market prebuilt customers like HP and
Dell, rather than custom home builds. The numbers quoted were around 80% of
all APU sales end up in these systems, and by working with OEMs only, AMD can
also help manage stock levels of the Renoir silicon coming out of the fabs
between desktops and notebooks."

~~~
dfxm12
I could be way off, but I imagine OEM's buy a lot more parts in general than
all system integrators combined. If this is the case, it could certainly
explain the 80% number but still wouldn't really allow you to draw the
conclusion that you should work with OEM's only.

~~~
dspillett
They specifically refer to APUs which IIRC means they are referencing only
models that include GPU capability.

Perhaps OEMs tend to favour CPU-only Ryzen models paired with other GPUs,
except at the low/budget end of the market which I assume the 4000 series is
not aimed at, in which case the 80% value is perfectly plausible.

------
blinkingled
You get the feeling that OEMs aren't really playing fair with AMD. Lenovo is
practically hiding their AMD options, pricing them too high without the usual
discounts that are always there for the Intel models, then there's inadequate
base configs (128gb ssd really for a 1500$ laptop?!), Crappy display options
etc.

Just read Asus shutting off the vents on AMD laptop yet identical Intel one
doesn't have that problem somehow.

------
pachico
I bought an XPS 13 5 or 6 years ago. It is working perfectly after all these
years of intense usage. (I wish actually it broke so I had an excuse to buy
the newer version.)

Unfortunately, XPS only carry intel. What would be a valid alternative to XPS
with a Ryzen CPU?

~~~
jfkebwjsbx
ThinkPad X13 AMD

~~~
allset_
I just looked to price one on their website, and it starts with some absurdly
low specs including a 128GB SSD and a horrible 1366x768 TN screen for $1140.
This is not acceptable in 2020.

~~~
ClumsyPilot
Thats downright disrespectfull. Some poor sucker bought that!

------
a012
I don't know if AMD intended to mock Intel when they named new Athlon Gold and
Silver which are on lower end, meanwhile Intel named Xeon Gold & Silver on the
higher end.

~~~
katmannthree
I think it's competing with the Pentium Gold and Silver branding which are
more or less in the same budget market.

~~~
a012
Yeah, I forgot Intel also has Pentium Gold & Silver, IIRC Intel just rebranded
Celeron?

~~~
nolok
Celeron still exists somehow. It "reigns" in the ~200 integrated pc area and
cheap laptops.

------
meigetsu
Since the GPU uses the system memory, is there any advantage to using these
APUs for machine learning?

GPU RAM is typically under 32GB (more commonly under 11GB) and quite expensive
- for the price of a V100 you could buy 1TB of system DDR4 RAM.

I'm guessing there are disadvantages in memory bandwidth, number of GPU cores,
overall FLOPS, but was curious if anyone knew how these pros/cons balance out.

~~~
justincormack
These machines are limited to 64GB RAM AFAIK, or maybe 32GB.

~~~
AdrianB1
The memory controller should support 4 DIMMs of 32 GB each, but in practice
the motherboard implementation may limit to 4 x 16GB. How much can be
allocated to the GPU part, no idea.

------
ed25519FUUU
I’m very much interested in building a low power home server with one of these
chips, but I’m wondering how I support a large disk array?

I’m not interested in an existing NAS setup. I’d like to do it myself.

~~~
AdrianB1
There is nothing different versus a regular Ryzen 3x00 CPU. If you want many
drives and good performance you need to use add-in SATA or SAS controllers
instead of the on-board SATA controller that is fairly slow; it is good for
one disk at a time, but slow for multiple disk access like a raid-z3 array w.
ZFS. In this case the limit is what controller you use (one can find sh LSI
SAS controllers at good price and good compatibility; see the Freenas.org
forums for more info) and how many.

For the "how many" part the number of available PCIe lanes depends mostly on
the chipset, the CPUs have 24 in total - 4 to the chipset, 20 available to
use. This is where the difference between B450 and X570, for example, can make
a difference. The graphics part of the APU is not relevant for a NAS, but it
can be if you also do transcoding or any GPU assisted work.

~~~
zlynx
The standard controllers included on my ASUS Pro x370 board show you don't
need a add-in controller. It's got 8 ports on the board, and when I do btrfs
scrubs the 6 HDDs get 760 MiB/s and the 2 SATA SSDs get 1.05 GiB/s.

The scrubs start at the same time each week so it's pretty obvious the SATA
controllers on that motherboard can handle at least 2 GiB/s.

I've honestly _never seen_ a motherboard with SATA-3 6 Gbps controllers so bad
that they couldn't handle a full 500 MB/s on every port.

If there is a bottleneck it would be the connection to the board chipset from
the CPU. Ryzen and its board support doesn't seem to have any problems here.
Especially not if the board and CPU are able to use PCIe 4.0.

~~~
AdrianB1
My B450 board with Ryzen 2700 has only 4 usable SATA ports (if a M.2 drive is
connected, the SATA ports 5 and 6 are disabled) and the 4 disk scrub in
FreeNAS is fairly slow compared to the sum of the speed of each drive. Heavy
FreeNAS users confirmed many times on the forum that the performance of a
dedicated controller is visibly (not only benchmark measurable) better than
the onboard SATA. I did not test, personally, just pointed to the FreeNAS
forums.

------
boring_twenties
Lame. I thought one of these was finally going to replace my 4770K. Guess I'll
wait a few more years.

