
How Not to Bomb Your Offer Negotiation - axk
http://haseebq.com/how-not-to-bomb-your-offer-negotiation
======
IamHWengineer
Lol. This guy was involved in a massive scam in the online poker world years
ago. not sure if he's completely changed. I don't know what he's doing in the
SW world.

Source: [https://www.highstakesdb.com/2375-haseeb-qureshi-admits-
to-c...](https://www.highstakesdb.com/2375-haseeb-qureshi-admits-to-chip-
dumping-quits-poker.aspx)

[http://www.cardrunners.com/blog/internetpokers/the-girah-
sca...](http://www.cardrunners.com/blog/internetpokers/the-girah-scandal)

~~~
akhilcacharya
He explains himself here:
[http://haseebq.com/about/](http://haseebq.com/about/)

If you didn't see his previous posts he's clearly a pretty skilled self-
teacher - negotiated up to 220K offers at Google and Airbnb despite going to a
bootcamp.

~~~
paulcole
>he's clearly a pretty skilled self-teacher

I think it's pronounced "self-promoter."

~~~
Hydraulix989
Yeah, this is just sad.

I know people personally that worked their asses off learning systems
programming, algorithms, and advanced mathematics at top-tier four-year
colleges with absolutely fantastic technical CVs that got offers that aren't
even half of that.

These are surely some of the smartest people in the world, too, but I suppose
they don't play the "bluffing" game all too well (er, "negotation" \-- call it
whatever you want, ex-poker player).

I'm not sure what makes this guy who ostensibly got his hand held through a
three-month "learn to copy and paste Ruby from StackOverflow" camp eligible
for a salary that is higher than some surgeons make.

Without reading the article, sounds like he successfully bluffed to one
company that another offered him some really high salary X, and then he went
straight to the moon (or should I say, made out like a bandit) from there.

As much as we like to think our hiring process is meritocratic, when
confronted with someone with just the right physical characteristics or the
right charismatic charm, our human social biases still seem to have a lot more
power over us than we'd like to admit.

I remember that one study that successfully correlated inches in
height/stature to substantial dollar increases in salary.

~~~
_gjav
He didn't get a 250k salary, that was total compensation, largely RSUs on a
standard vesting schedule. He also donates 1/3rd of his pre-tax income to
charity.

He wasn't just a graduate of a hacker bootcamp, he was hired on by App Academy
after he finished and was quickly promoted up to Director of Product. He spent
a lot of time teaching people how to pass whiteboard interviews. He was
probably better prepared for an interview than your average Stanford CS grad,
and already had prior experience as Director of Product and a portfolio of
side projects.

He didn't bluff any company. He went through Triple Byte, the trendiest new
tech recruitment startup. He got an offer from Triple Byte themselves even
though he didn't even apply for them, got an offer from Google, and when word
about the Google offer got out every other company started bidding for him.

He's also just a really smart guy in general. If you spend 15 minutes talking
to him, he'll leave an impression. It's not a bluff or a con, he's just a
really smart, really analytical guy.

~~~
Apocryphon
Sounds like less of an indictment of him, and more of an indictment of the
software interview process in SV and shark-feeding nature of the bubble.

~~~
Hydraulix989
Yes, I am less interested in the details of his specific case (I realize I
might have made some rash judgments earlier on), and more interested in
furthering the discussion behind the general trends underlying the Valley's
hiring processes and brainstorming ways to possibly even improve them.

------
rdtsc
It might be important to keep in mind that there is a large difference between
negotiating to buy a car and negotiating to work some place.

A lot of the stuff you read seems to be geared toward "buying a car" \-- used
top 10 tricks, outsmart somehow the dealer, maybe act like an asshole a bit,
and you're leaving and never seeing them again.

I don't see it always working too well in job negotiations. Approaching it
that way may backfire. So you "tricked" your future manager to give you a $50k
more. In the end though, if they feel they didn't get a good deal because you
oversold yourself, you won't have a good time eventually. The last thing you
want to do is end up starting work and already having a target on your back,
because the owner / manager feels a bit swindled by your "tactics".

Surely you can end up in a large organization, maybe slip through the cracks,
but in the end, you better be sure you can deliver according to what you are
paid.

~~~
pandaman
Most companies employing programmers do not want employees to know each other
salary. This means that if you are an individual contributor applying to such
a company then your manager is not going to know your salary at all. The
salary is going to be negotiated with somebody higher up, whose reports are
other managers and not ICs. I would not worry about this.

~~~
r00fus
Are you kidding? I would be highly surprised if a manager didn't have access
to the budget impacts of his/her direct reports.

Where is this place where such info is hidden? Because I definitely don't want
to work there.

~~~
pandaman
I've never had a salary negotiation with a future direct manager. And I've
worked/interviewed in quite a few game companies as well as some non-gamie
ones like Google and Microsoft.

~~~
aeling
I didn't interview with my current boss, but he definitely knows my total comp
down to the dollar and stock/bonus/salary split - I've seen it on his screen
during annual performance & bonus reviews. This is at a big 5 company.

~~~
pandaman
Well, it's a company, which does not care that employees know each other
salary then.

~~~
dpark
There are very few companies that keep salaries secret from managers. My
manager knows exactly how much I make and how much everyone under me makes.
His manager has the same visibility a level higher. What he doesn't know is
how much his peers make or how much anyone in his peers' orgs make.

Salary secrecy can't really extend to managers unless you want your managers
to do a poor job rewarding people. How's it supposed to work when someone
comes to their manager and asks for a raise? "I think I'm underpaid and want a
10% raise." "Well, I don't know what you or anyone else makes so I have no
idea if you're underpaid. Deal with it I guess."

~~~
pandaman
I am not sure what are you arguing here. If you have people reporting to you
then you are a manager and your manager, who manages managers might know your
and your reports salaries. All I said that the first level manager, whose
reports do not have reports of their own is unlikely to know anyone salary but
his own.

>How's it supposed to work when someone comes to their manager and asks for a
raise

Every where I worked, you (as an individual contributor)go to the higher up,
who knows your salary with the recommendation from your manager, saying that
you're doing excellent job or whatever.

~~~
rdtsc
Hmm interesting. I am poster higher up which started this chain. I worked in 4
places. In all cases my manager knew how much I make.

I imagine in some large companies depending on how top down there, they don't
do it. But I wouldn't present it as a rule.

So how does asking for a raise work. You work with you manager all year. Then
all of the sudden you go over his head at the end and talk to his boss about
wanting a raise? I have never seen that. Sounds a bit strange.

Anyway, original point still stands. The lowest level boss which does know
what you do and sees that you have a $50k higher salary and yet do work that
not really $50k extra worth will put a target on your back.

~~~
pandaman
Well, since I haven't seen what you described other than in small firms, where
the first level manager was also the last or the one before last, let me ask
you this: does the lowest level manager have the authority to give raises? If
not, then does not the raise come from over his head anyways? And if yes, then
why is not he or she negotiating your salary from the start? Or is he? If he
is then, again, there shouldn't be a problem since you both agreed that your
compensation is fair for both sides.

~~~
rdtsc
Not sure if he has authority. Not all time. Yes for a small company he did.
For a large company I discuss it with him because he is the one who knows what
I did last year best. If I got to higher ups and say "give me more money",
they'll say something like "I think I've seen you in the kitchen, or the
conference room". Well, in reality they'll read a performance review probably
from my manager. And then probably talk to the manager anyway...

But what happens is I talk to my manager and they they'll go find out and make
a case for me if they are not authorized to do it themselves.

> If he is then, again, there shouldn't be a problem since you both agreed
> that your compensation is fair for both sides.

Well that was the original premise of the post. If negotiating like one
negotiates buying a car, showing counter offers and so on. They might feel
like you tricked them, if you then don't do the job to the level of your
salary.

~~~
pandaman
>They might feel like you tricked them, if you then don't do the job to the
level of your salary.

This will also be a problem if you do worse job than expected and your manager
does not know your salary. Simple solution - don't do a bad job if you don't
want to be fired.

------
mstade
My main technique in negotiation is to make sure I've framed my own
boundaries. I always know at what point I walk away, what's simply non-
negotiable. Everything else is on the table, and it helps me frame the
conversation. If I find whoever I'm negotiating with simply won't meet the
walk-away limit, I walk away. No hard feelings, no regret – all of those what-
if feelings were dealt with as I set the minimum limit _before_ going into the
conversation.

As well, I make sure that minimum level is a level I am genuinely comfortable
with. It's not a cop-out, it's a level where I will sign and feel happy about
it. Anything more than that is a bonus, but if I don't get that I'm perfectly
happy.

I've found since I started doing this, and staying true to actually walking
away if things aren't working out, the whole conversation has been much more
professional and easy. Key to this though is that walk away means walk away,
no childish "give me this or else I walk" nonsense. If you walk, you walk,
that's it. Non-negotiable means just that.

EDIT: Probably worth mentioning as well that I do plenty of research _before_
setting that walk-away level. There's one aspect which is what I instinctively
want, but then there's other things that come in to play as well of course,
relocation if applicable, cost of living etc.

------
PieterH
It's this kind of personality that I look for in my organisations, mainly to
isolate and slowly get rid of. The focus on "me" is so toxic. No amount of
brilliance makes up for circles of damage to other, modest, hard working
people.

~~~
johnnyfaehell
Having a bunch of people who think the same, leads to group think. Having
someone who like attention isn't necessary bad. Just like having someone who
complains a lot isn't bad. (in fact if you look at team dynamics they'll end
up being the most important type of person to have on a team to create a high
performing team.) It's how the team and management react to a team member that
creates toxic environments. If you have someone who points out valid issues
and you choose to ignore them then of course they're complaining is going to
become an issue. However if you fix the majority of major issues said person
comes out with your team morale will go up because their product is better.

As they say there is no I in team, so acting like a single person can ruin a
team feels rather stupid. It's a team that ruins a team.

~~~
PieterH
Oh, I'm a great fan of diverse thinking in a group. Trouble with dominant
individuals is they wipe that out, since most people will accept someone's
contradictory opinion if it's backed up by force and charisma. And yes, such
people can absolutely ruin a team, I've seen it happen many, many times. That
is why I treat them as problems to solve.

~~~
johnnyfaehell
Basically you're solution to the problem of team dynamics is to basically
bully them out? (Isolate and then remove, sounds like workplace bullying)

------
s3nnyy
Best is in my opinion to really practice salary negotiation with a friend. The
most important aspects are:

1) Talk about salary at the very end of the interview process (by then the
company should know your value).

2) Let the recruiter / manager say a number first.

3) If you get the offer, no matter how you feel, act satisfied, but not too
satisfied.

4) Try to negotiate up reasonably.

I talk more about this in my talk at Europython on tech-recruiting and salary
negotiation:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6PTaTDHUG4&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6PTaTDHUG4&feature=youtu.be&t=1595)

Disclaimer: I am a recruiter. If you're looking for a tech job in Zurich, I
probably can help you out - you find my contact details in my HN handle.

------
bentlegen
Slightly-related: has anyone interviewing with Airbnb used the author's public
starting offer of $220k total compensation to negotiate their own starting
offer? Genuinely curious.

[http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-
ii...](http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii/)

~~~
well_negotiator
Really sad to know he didn't get a good offer in Airbnb and you both think
it's a good offer. But this looks totally like a new grad offer.

I have my friends who just got offers in Airbnb who are getting paid 180k in
salary and ~600K in stocks which is basically $330k/year.

My other friend who is senior engineer with 5 year experience is compensated
around 500k/year.

I have similar experience and i recently did a job switch with around 11
competing offers and negotiated well more than the previous number. I
negotiated with every offer except snapchat whom didn't move their needle but
their offer was good not the best.

If you're really good, you can easily negotiate up to 400k/year real
money(cash + stocks).

\- Googler/Fb employee with 4 year work experience here.

~~~
stale2002
O.o These numbers are surprisingly high, to the point of almost being
unbelievable.

And I go around telling my friends that software engineers can make 120k right
out of college, and I'M getting laughed at by my friends at how apparently
unbelievable ridiculously high this is.

I've got 3 years experience and I'm making not much more than that working at
a midsized startup (I went to a top tech school and everything!).

And then I go on Hacker News and learn that the fair salary for people working
at big companies, with around my experience is 330k!?! Man what am I doing
wrong.

Is this what it is like being the mythical, 10x developer unicorn that I hear
so much about?

~~~
sidlls
Skepticism is the best policy with things like this. It's easy for an
anonymous person on the internet to make claims like this.

~~~
op00to
I am a master donut artist at Dunkin Donuts. I make $5.3 million a year. See
how this works?

------
DictumMortuum
I quickly skimmed through the article and it seemed to me that most of the
advice given where taken from here:

[http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-
negotiation/](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/)

------
35bge57dtjku
> Now say you end up turning down their offer. They’ve spent over $24,000 just
> extending this single offer to you (to say nothing of opportunity costs),
> and now they’ll essentially have to start over from scratch.

Most of that is to hire someone, not just 'you'. And they aren't even close to
having to start from scratch if you don't accept.

~~~
brianwawok
True. But they really do want you if they made an offer. I have never heard of
someone asking for 5k more get their offer yanked, but I know people afraid to
ask for that reason.

The exact # they lose if you say no isn't the point. You are the top choice.
Doesn't mean they will double your offer but they do like you.

~~~
35bge57dtjku
I have had success with asking for modest increases. I think it helps to have
a good reason, like them not doing any 401k matching.

~~~
ryanmccullagh
Is the median salary for the position a valid reason for an increase? For
example 93000 is the median for software engineers in US according to the
government.

~~~
35bge57dtjku
I wouldn't specify 'median' exactly. That sounds too technical - it doesn't
have the same innocence and emotional appeal. I'd mention what other local
companies are hiring for the same position at, and mention being surprised
they aren't offering at least that. Or mention having friends that got hired
for the same position at a salary that's 10k more than you're being offered.
If you do it smoothly, I think the worst case scenario should be that they say
they can't go any higher, or that they come back with a higher offer that's
only 1/2 or 1/4 more than what you mentioned. Like Sun Tzu said, don't corner
the enemy.

~~~
AstralStorm
Replace median with typical and you're set. The only way to weasel out of that
is to show you're below average. Now then, any kind of negotiation is risky
for obvious reasons.

------
tempestn
There are definitely some good points here. As someone who has done a decent
amount of negotiating on both sides, I will say that while it's true that even
in a startup your boss won't much care if you negotiate... they might care if
you mercilessly try to squeeze out every. last. drop. as described here - even
if you do it unfailingly politely. In a situation where there only a handful
of employees and you're reporting to the founder, they may actually care about
that last 10k you squeezed out at the deadline. Probably not enough to
withdraw the offer, but perhaps enough to put a bit of a damper on the future
relationship. I'm not saying it's not something that could be overcome. If you
really are a 'rockstar', it would probably be quickly forgotten. But still,
there is some value to leaving a small amount on the table. Especially since
you can always negotiate a raise if your performance is indeed excellent.
(Although admittedly your current salary does always anchor that somewhat, so
I'm certainly not recommending giving up a _lot_ initially.)

------
gbrindisi
As a side note I've found that negotiation room in EU is so tiny if not
negligible. Maybe it is just me but I suspect it's a mix between a different
culture and a - generally - more unionized and segmented job market.

Wondering if you guys have experienced the same.

~~~
ThePawnBreak
I'm sure you can negociate if you have offers from Google, Facebook and
Palantir in London. Negociating only works in hot markets, and there are very
few of them for tech in the EU.

~~~
mstade
Maybe, but the compensation range for developers in London is much narrower
than you might think. From what I've seen, most startups offer in the range
£30k-70k per year, probably with some mostly useless stock option deal. I've
seen salaries out of Amazon and Facebook starting at £50k, and even at
investment banks, for more junior positions. These are all basically suckers,
given the cost of living in London, among other things.

Anything below £70k isn't worth consideration, unless you really want to be in
London I guess. There will be better offers elsewhere.

Above £70k the range is basically £70k-100k, for a number of reasons. At £100k
you end up in a different tax bracket, to the point where you may want to
start considering taking other perks other than salary, to keep your tax cost
down. Also, if you're being offered that kind of money, you're likely
accepting a director-level offer, so really for engineers the meaningful range
is about £70k-100k. Since you mentioned Palantir, I'll mention that I met with
a recruiter of theirs who mentioned in our first (and only) meeting that their
salaries were in this specific range.

For contract work, you can quite easily break the £100k barrier, but obviously
now you're running your own shop with all of the issues that brings. Or
possibilities, depending on your perspective!

~~~
ThePawnBreak
Both Facebook and Google pay about £80k for new grads (£60k salary + £20k in
stock and bonus). Seniors earn about double that. Palantir pays interns £5k /
month plus free rent.

~~~
mstade
Sounds about right. No one mentioned the free rent thing to me, but I guess
that's in corporate housing where you don't want to stay _anyway_. May I ask
how you know?

~~~
ThePawnBreak
Usually corporate housing at top tech comapanies is pretty sweet. I have
friends who got offers.

~~~
mstade
I've lived in corporate housing and it's all but sweet. Sure, the first period
is all fun and well, but you can't _live_ there. It's kind of like living in a
drab hotel, or fancier dorm rooms. It's not home, and never will be. At least
that's my experience, mileage varies of course.

~~~
ThePawnBreak
Well, as I said, it's only for interns, so usually for 3 months.

------
Panda15
Someone needs to interview this guy's coworkers and ask them what they think
of him.

------
djcooley
I highly recommend reading Never Split the Difference, by Chris Voss. The book
offers a different take to negotiation, written by a former FBI negotiator.

In his words, he could never split the difference in a hostage negotiation.
When you enter the process understanding this, you do things differently.

~~~
jsmeaton
Can you elaborate a bit please? Does this mean not meeting half way between
your offer and theirs? And then what?

~~~
djcooley
Good questions. His techniques rely on building a relationship, empathy, and
many other techniques.

If you enter the process with a split the difference mentality, you invariably
leave a lot of value on the table.

It's late where I am, I'd just go read the book if you want to know more.

~~~
AstralStorm
Companies do not work on empathy, but on maximum reward for acceptable risk
and investment.

~~~
mifreewil
This would be true if your offer was negotiated with a distant bureaucratic
committee (or board), but most of the time, regardless of who they represent,
you're just dealing with people.

~~~
mstade
Many companies, particularly the larger organizations, have pretty strict
boundaries though. Case in point: in a large corporation we tried recruiting
an incredibly talented developer, but because of company rules, we couldn't
offer him what he asked for despite us thinking he was definitely worth it
(and really, it wasn't outlandish in any way) but HR would never let it fly
because rules. His problem then, I think, was that he mentioned what he'd
earned elsewhere, so some policy dictated we couldn't offer more than 20% than
that, or whatever. Stupid, silly policy, and just goes to show you should
never divulge information the other party just isn't privy to. (I've never
told recruiters what I earned before, that's not their business.)

~~~
vonmoltke
> His problem then, I think, was that he mentioned what he'd earned elsewhere,
> so some policy dictated we couldn't offer more than 20% than that, or
> whatever. Stupid, silly policy, and just goes to show you should never
> divulge information the other party just isn't privy to. (I've never told
> recruiters what I earned before, that's not their business.)

Actually, that sounds like a _great_ reason to volunteer my current salary. As
long as I'm not desperate I don't want to work for a company that maintains
such an idiotic policy, because it tells me something about how they view and
value their employees.

~~~
mstade
If I didn't know better, I'd agree with you. Thing is, this organization is
quite good, but HR is useless. Unfortunately, all hires have to go through
this draconian and incredibly difficult HR department – for reasons I guess –
and they just seem to throw spanners around for a living, especially into
works. HR acts largely as their own separate entity, which isn't uncommon with
these kinds of organizations, and play more or less by their own rules. What
they do isn't indicative of the rest of the organization. It bugs me a lot
that we couldn't offer him what he wanted, and for no good reason either.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Thing is, this organization is quite good, but HR is useless. Unfortunately,
> all hires have to go through this draconian and incredibly difficult HR
> department

If HR is that bad, and the organization gives HR that kind of power, how can
you say the organization is "quite good"?

------
scarface74
My takeaways....

1\. Communicate your BATNA but be subtle. When I was looking for a job two
years ago and spoke with recruiters, I heard from a few that it would be
"hard" to get $21K more than I was making at the time. I told them that I was
happy with my current job at a major well known company (I wasn't) and that's
what it would take to get me to leave.

2\. Salary was the main reason I was leaving, but like he said, it's much
easier to negotiate one time signing bonuses and things that don't cost the
company money -- like more work from home days.

3\. Know your worth - it's hard to negotiate more than your market value. When
I was interviewing I had 10 prospects that were in various stages of the
interview process. I was able to confidently cut the process short for some
knowing I had others and I had outside recruiters negotiating on behalf so
they could get their commissions.

------
scotthtaylor
Such a silly article; not a great way to start a relationship with your new
colleagues.

~~~
AstralStorm
Are you assuming HR is truly your colleague? Or maybe CFO or CEO?

No, they are your bosses. They might be colleagues, but that is secondary.

~~~
sidlls
Can't emphasize this enough. This kind of mistake is common in our industry,
though. I wish more software developers understood that when they say "human
resources" they aren't lying: we are resources, like paper, electricity, and
IT infrastructure. We are not their "colleagues," they don't see us as
"colleagues," and it is damn obvious we aren't treated like colleagues.

------
eru
Nolo has a some decent advice about negotiations: [http://www.nolo.com/legal-
encyclopedia/contract-negotiation-...](http://www.nolo.com/legal-
encyclopedia/contract-negotiation-11-strategies-33340.html)

------
nfriedly
> _I like the term BATNA a lot, mostly because it sounds like a gadget Batman
> would lob at bad guys._

Glad I'm not the only one who thought this :)

------
bbcbasic
How Not to Bomb your landing page (Hostgator error). Use a CDN.

~~~
jeanlucas
this link was here on HN a while ago, but on Medium:
[https://medium.freecodecamp.com/how-not-to-bomb-your-
offer-n...](https://medium.freecodecamp.com/how-not-to-bomb-your-offer-
negotiation-c46bb9bc7dea#.veznhprsz)

------
ilaksh
Lol Hostgator

