
WhatsApp launches Status, an encrypted Snapchat Stories clone - mcjiggerlog
https://techcrunch.com/2017/02/20/whatsapp-status
======
untog
This individual feature isn't so bad, but I still dislike the precedent -
WhatsApp is an amazingly fast, efficient app right now. It'll be a shame to
see it descend into the usual junk as they pack in feature after feature no
one really asked for.

My parents use WhatsApp on generations-old phones - it performs great and it's
simple enough to understand. Why can't we keep the more complex stuff over on
Snapchat? Or Instagram. Or Facebook Messenger. Or...

~~~
foepys
I guess WhatsApp will replace Facebook Messenger in a few years. Why should
Facebook waste their time on developing two different apps that do nearly the
same? Also, WhatsApp's userbase seems to consist of a lot of people that don't
use Facebook anymore and Facebook wants them back.

~~~
mcintyre1994
Ugh I hope not, Messenger is exactly what I don't want WhatsApp to become.

~~~
vvvv
I'm trying to stay away from Messenger but it does have one significant
advantage over WhatsApp - it can be used on multiple devices seamlessly, which
is useful when I have a work phone and my personal phone.

~~~
Kadin
Almost impossible to square that requirement with strong end to end
encryption.

You can figure out ways to do it, but it's pretty kludgy (messages addressed
to you have to be encrypted with the keys of each device you've authorized)
and you can't scroll back prior to when a device was authorized and its key
was communicated to other participants, which users might not find convenient.

But it's why I don't use Whatsapp as well, personally. I prefer the cross-
device seamlessness of Hangouts (and FB Messenger) to E2E crypto.

~~~
jonknee
> You can figure out ways to do it, but it's pretty kludgy (messages addressed
> to you have to be encrypted with the keys of each device you've authorized)
> and you can't scroll back prior to when a device was authorized and its key
> was communicated to other participants, which users might not find
> convenient.

Apple seems to do OK with iMessage and it faces the same constraints.

~~~
levosmetalo
> Apple seems to do OK with iMessage and it faces the same constraints.

Always had an impression that iMessage is not end to end encrypted.

~~~
JimmyAustin
It is, but it requires the sender to encrypt the message for every one of the
recipients devices.

What isn't encrypted is iCloud backups, which are what provide the ability to
scroll backup on new devices.

------
reitanqild
Time for the weekly reminder that if you don't have reason to believe that
powerful adversaries are after you then you can use Telegram. If you feel just
fine publishing on twitter or HN under you real name I guess you qualify.

Bragging about E2E encryption while feeding the Facebook data monster IMO is a
bit like bragging about how you transport your slaves in armored vehicles:

Yes, they are safer against robberies.

No, [given my current threat model] I'd still prefer driving something less
secure that isn't abusing my every action [and every action of everyone I
communicate with] for the profit of Facebook.

Edit: clarifications, in square brackets and below

It seems no doubt that Whatsapp is safer against an 3rd party adversary.

My points are only that

\- I consider Facebook an adversary at this point,

\- I don't belive they bought Whatsapp and removed the fees because of the
goodness in Mark Zuckerbergs heart,

\- I don't believe they would update their privacy policy if they somehow
thought they could get away with what they are planning to do under the old
privacy policy.

~~~
hiq
I don't get why you would give up on E2E when you can just switch to Signal,
unless you use Telegram for some features that Signal does not have (I don't
know if there is any TBH), but you do not list them in your three points.

It would also make sense if more people are already on Telegram (so that you
have less people to convince to switch), but again you don't mention this
reason to prefer Telegram over Signal.

In my case, as usually advocated by security expert, I prefer Signal, and I
fallback to WhatsApp whenever it is too big a hurdle to make people switch.

~~~
reitanqild
Don't know why you were downvoted.

I at least felt you were contributing constructively to the discussion and
have upvoted you.

~~~
jbverschoor
Beause many people on HN work for FB. It is also the reason hy every react-
post gets to the top stories

~~~
reitanqild
Thanks!

Seems I am getting off the hook easily with my campaign against Whatsapp then.

I'm at a double digit upvotes and that is even when I have seen a few
downvotes in a row : )

My biggest gripe with this has been how some of our cryptography stars IMO has
a very one-dimensional view on this:

"E2E good, anything else bad."

IMO, E2E message encryption only buys you so much, i.e. as a thought
experiment one could consider if you would like to use an E2E protected system
run by NSA. Or by FSB. Or by our bosses, wives, parents etc. Whoever you don't
want to make statistics on who you contact and when.

For me who like to think I am smart to keep as much data as possible out of
the hands of FB - and by that - out of the hands of

\- whoever buys the windfall when Facebook collapses or

\- whoever manages to hack them thoroughly or

\- whoever sends them a valid subpoena or

\- (slighly evil here) pays them enough

OK, Facebook guys - let me cut you a deal: you start acting trustworthy and I
start liking you. I want to like Whatsapp. I want to pay you money. I want to
pay you more for API access. I want to have a brilliant messaging platform to
communicate with my stubborn family.

I just don't want you to ruin product I loved. I don't want you scheme so hard
to datamine me that you need to update the privacy policy.

------
pdog
Hopefully this pressures Snap to offer end-to-end encryption within their app.
WhatsApp is end-to-end encrypted by default[1][2][3].

It's embarassing that a major app like Snapchat—built around ephemerality and
privacy and often handling sensitive data—still doesn't have any form of end-
to-end encryption.

[1]:
[https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/en/general/28030015](https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/en/general/28030015)

[2]: [https://www.whatsapp.com/security/](https://www.whatsapp.com/security/)

[3]: [https://www.whatsapp.com/security/WhatsApp-Security-
Whitepap...](https://www.whatsapp.com/security/WhatsApp-Security-
Whitepaper.pdf)

~~~
ReverseCold
Snapchat isn't supposed to be private, it's supposed to feel private.

~~~
Groxx
I don't see how those two conflict with each other.

------
thanatropism
I'm kind of hoping this comes to my phone really soon. Three reasons:

* I miss having status lines as a visible message to the world. I know this isn't exactly the same thing and that Whatsapp/Gtalk/etc. have those, but they have been de-emphasized, so saying "man, I'm excited about $this" isn't likely to reach my friends.

* I'm always conflicted between using Facebook for "thoughtful" stuff (that won't embarass me in six months' time) and just posting from random whimsical observations ("I saw a pretty butterfly!") and moods/feelings. My Facebook network is too wide now, too.

* I did install Snapchat to check it out, but it's just not for my demographic. Younger people take to the internet to complement and boost their meatspace life; we 30-somethings gradually drift apart from friends but want to keep some semblance (or even illusion) of a friend base that is alive.

Overall, I've been using Facebook as a degenerated blogging/syndication
platform, but miss the social features of a social platform. Hey, when is the
update getting to international iPhone App Stores? I want to try it!

------
ClassyJacket
I dislike the trend of all apps having to be Snapchat. It adds bloat, and even
if well coded and running on a powerful phone, it adds bloat to the interface.
Not every app has to be a jack-of-all-trades. I've particularly found it
frustrating how Facebook Messenger is no longer a clean list of conversations
sorted by most recent. Now I have to scroll through games, rooms, their
Snapchat clone, online now, suggested friends, etc. just to get back to my
friend I talked to yesterday.

On the other hand, Snapchat is an awful piece of software, and some
competition to prod them into fixing it would be useful.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Facebook Messenger is no longer a clean list of conversations sorted by
> most recent_

That's what I see. The only new modules were "Active Now" and "Favourites",
both of which I've hidden.

~~~
ClassyJacket
I also have Shared Days, suggested rooms, groups, and probably some others
that I have to hide every week. Shared Days cannot be hidden at all.

------
kirkdouglas
Time to move to Signal I guess. Seems like they will turn WhatsApp into
bloated mess like Facebook Messenger currently is.

~~~
cschmittiey
For what it's worth, Facebook's Messenger Lite app is really light on bloat,
although it's not officially available in the US.

~~~
Groxx
Interesting - hadn't heard of that one:
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.facebook.m...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.facebook.mlite&hl=en)

> _This app is incompatible with all of your devices._

:'( Why do they feel this is a useful thing to do?

~~~
voltagex_
Not available in Australia either - I guess there's always apkmirror.

------
asadlionpk
Facebook, to me, has reached it's peak. It's waiting to be disrupted.

------
ploggingdev
I used to wonder how Facebook planned to monetize WhatsApp, I am beginning to
find the answer :

> Status could also open up new advertising opportunities for WhatsApp. If it
> followed Snap and Instagram’s lead, it could insert full-screen ads in-
> between friends’ Statuses.

I really liked WhatsApp's business model before the aquisition : user's pay a
small annual fee to use the app. What was cool to see was that the network
effects were so strong that people who had never paid for an app or
subscription service paid for WhatsApp. If they kept the service paid I doubt
it would have reached the 1 billion users mark so quickly, but just humour me
here : with 1 billion users they would have atleast 1 billion dollars in ARR.
That would have been cool. They could have focused on what they do best :
provide a no BS end to end encrypted messenger which respects the user's
privacy. (Yes, I am aware of Signal and I use it).

I am curious to see how Facebook balances the need to monetize vs to the need
to maintain WhatsApp's reputation as a service that respects users' privacy.

~~~
mcintyre1994
Did they ever actually charge people? Were me and all my family in a weird A/B
test bucket that constantly gets our subscription renewed without paying? I
never paid, I just occasionally got told I didn't need to yet, and my family
were the same - I never understood it.

~~~
reitanqild
Happened to me in the beginning but I think I actually paid twice near the end
and I was so happy because I was supporting a sustainable, privacy-respecting
company.

(I used to love it and be a walking billboard for it, which is possibly why I
dislike it so strongly now.)

------
qznc
I would prefer if they would add useful features instead of just addictive
ones. For example, polling like Threema.

[https://threema.ch/en/blog/posts/threema-poll-
feature](https://threema.ch/en/blog/posts/threema-poll-feature)

~~~
reitanqild
Let me add:

\- bots

\- hashtags

\- simple working multi device setup

\- an option to not feed your and your friends social connections to Facebook

~~~
mullen
\- Payments of some kind

------
msoad
I think it's very easy for Facebook to add stories to each of their apps. It's
a single code base I believe!

Stories are now in:

    
    
        - Instagram 
        - Messenger 
        - WhatsApp
        - Facebook (soon, I've seen the beta)
    

They are going after $SNAP in each and every warfront!

~~~
artosispylon
How are stories in Messenger?

~~~
skeletonjelly
It's called "My Day"

------
darkknight265
Snapchat is weak in the very markets that Whatsapp is strong. Snap's argument
for why is that their bandwidth heavy product does not do well in developing
countries. This is a direct challenge to that reasoning -- is it the
infrastructure (phone/bandwidth) that is holding people back or the lack of a
network effect?

As infrastructure improves, Whatsapp is making the bet that users will prefer
to use these features on an app that is already their primary social network.

I'm skeptical of the paternalistic arguments on HN that people don't really
want these features -- perhaps the reason Whatsapp users don't use Snapchat is
that their social graph hasn't moved to it, not that they don't want to share
'stories'.

------
gagabity
I hope they don't ruin WhatsApp they have already turned Messenger into a
bloated pile of something and I have noticed my Instagram is a lot slower
after the "stories" feature.

------
vuyani
This is a big F U to snapchat after they refused zuckerbergs offer

~~~
nacs
They already did that by integrating a stories feature into Instagram that was
a copy of the SnapChat one.

This is just another move into their territory.

------
balladeer
I remember installing this app after reading this blog post -
[https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-
ads?](https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads?). How times and
policies both change and how users change, or they get conditioned maybe -
slowly over time.

Those were my "no compromise on privacy" days. Now I am kinda fine with it.
Just that I find myself using SMS probably the first time in half decade and
more than ever (use Signal on Android for SMS). Also I was successful in
bringing around 20 friends on Signal, 3 on Wire which feels like supporting
fragmentation on a personal level. I wish these new privacy conscious apps
could talk to each other.

------
CodeSheikh
This is (mighty) Facebook trying to convey a strong point across to Snapchat
by throwing knock out punches from all sides (ephemeral stories in Instagram,
Facebook and WhatsApp).

------
romanovtexas
"Status could also open up new advertising opportunities for WhatsApp. If it
followed Snap and Instagram’s lead, it could insert full-screen ads in-between
friends’ Statuses."

If this is implemented, it'd be a shame, coming from a company that posted
this - [https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-
ads](https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads)

------
funkyy
One day, there will be a tech giant, that will let us disable all new,
amazing, revolutionary, bloated features instead of forcing us to use them.
One day...

------
77yy77yy
One word: Telegram.

~~~
thepiwo
I generally love Telegram, but what bothers me is that they don't end-to-end
encrypt my messages. Sure they do in the "private"-mode but this is not really
usable to me, as there is no desktop client and my messages are often not
arriving as reliable as the normal ones...

------
cerved
Stories in Messenger, Instagram and Facebook was clearly not enough.

------
mderazon
I wait for the day I would be able to send money between friends via WhatsApp.
It's so ubiquitous that it can have really serious impact on economy by making
cash obsolete

------
morcutt
I wonder how this will play out. When Instagram Stories were introduced my
friends mostly migrated to using Instagram Stories and my engagement on Snap
went down.

------
t1o5
Remember eBay's bright yellow to white background transition ?

WhatsApp owned by Facebook which also owns FB Messenger, its only a matter of
time for this transition.

------
smpetrey
So Facebook is on all out war to destroy $SNAP huh?

------
PleaseHelpMe
Facebook really wants to kill Snapchat

------
mcjiggerlog
I've been using Whatsapp since 2010 and this is the first time I've considered
dropping it; all I want is an easy to use chat client. What the hell were they
thinking? I'm no expert but I would guess that >50% of their userbase does not
want this feature at all. My grandma uses Whatsapp!

I think this could be the beginning of the end for Whatsapp's ubiquity. It's
such a shame as Whatsapp has such insane market penetration here (UK/Spain)
that it is going to be a huge mess to try to switch to an alternative. I
literally haven't received an SMS from a friend in years.

~~~
AznHisoka
What is wrong with regular SMS? i guess i can understand whatsapp popularity
in developing countries where SMS is expensive...

~~~
mcjiggerlog
Main benefits of whatsapp (or similar):

* Free international communication

* Read/typing receipts

* Faster and more reliable

* Sending of media

* Group chats that actually work

* Seamless usage across desktop/mobile

Going back to SMS is like going back to the dark ages after getting used to a
proper web-based chat client. As far as I can tell pretty much the only place
where technical users still use SMS is the US.

~~~
reitanqild
> Seamless usage across desktop/mobile

This isn't true for Whatsapp and was my main _technical_ reason for leaving
Whatsapp for Telegram.

(I have another post in this thread that explains my reasoning WRT security.)

~~~
mcjiggerlog
Definitely works better on Telegram, agreed.

~~~
joshbaptiste
The problem is my mom, and non-technical friends are NOT on Telegram, so
Whatsapp it is for the foreseeable future.

~~~
reitanqild
I got my in-laws over to Telegram and we migrated a large group that included
lot of retired people over earlier this year ...

but _my_ family is stubborn like myself and refuse to change.

Practical advice or anyone who decides to try:

\- recommend it to friends at your age first.

\- emphasize ease of use, not security (also I wouldn't even feel comfortable
telling people that Telegram is more secure)

\- both can be used free of charge so I am fine with communicating with my
stubborn siblings on Whatsapp and everyone else on other platforms.

------
RRRA
Why can't we have (FOSS) nice things that are e2e encrypted and not
conglomerate owned...

~~~
jimmies
We clearly do, it's called Signal, it's just not as convenient for you to use.
Which is pretty much everything FOSS.

------
kerhackernews
So facebook has both Instagram and WhatsApp doing similar things?

------
keythrow
And SNAP's IPO is coming up!

------
jhildings
Quite a bad name, considering there is already an IM client called status for
Ethereum [https://status.im/](https://status.im/)

