
Cleanup at the slaughterhouse - SQL2219
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-12-29/america-s-worst-graveyard-shift-is-grinding-up-workers
======
Pfhreak
After reading the above and an article by Glenn Greenwald [1] on ag-gag laws
and the mistreatment of industrial animals, I've stopped eating meat unless
I've met the farmer and (ideally) seen the farm.

I'm vegetarian outside the house, and our family ordered a half a cow from a
farmer who lives ~30 minutes away. It was butchered by a small shop. I
received something like 200+lbs of meat from a single animal, raised well,
grass fed at a cost of around $8/lb.

The lifestyle change has been far easier than I expected, and it feels like a
decision that actually has a local impact. (As opposed to, say, tweeting
outrage.)

There's a whole bunch of support for making this change that I wasn't aware
of. If you are in the NW, Seattle Tilth puts out a guide to all the regional
farms [2], and most of them have websites and email contact info.

[1] [https://theintercept.com/2017/10/05/factory-farms-fbi-
missin...](https://theintercept.com/2017/10/05/factory-farms-fbi-missing-
piglets-animal-rights-glenn-greenwald/)

[2] [http://www.pugetsoundfresh.org/](http://www.pugetsoundfresh.org/)

~~~
PhasmaFelis
> _I received something like 200+lbs of meat from a single animal, raised
> well, grass fed at a cost of around $8 /lb. The lifestyle change has been
> far easier than I expected_

I think this illustrates why it's so hard to make any large-scale progress on
industrial animal welfare. I'm glad that this works for you and you're able to
make a difference in your own life, but spending $1600 on meat, even 200lbs of
meat, is not an option that most people have.

~~~
cageface
Giving up meat entirely is an option everybody has. Plant based diets are not
only cheaper but healthier. I switched to a plant based diet in 2017 and it's
the best decision I've made in a long time. I feel better physically and
mentally and feel better about the role I play on the planet too.

~~~
dizzystar
Actually, moving entirely to plant-based diets is not feasible for everyone
due to allergies and other food-related issues.

For a certain subset of the population, getting the appropriate amount of
protein and other nutrients would be nigh impossible since those foods could
make them incredibly ill or kill them.

~~~
cageface
Sure. Many people are allergic to meat or fish too. _65%_ of the world
population is intolerant to lactose. There will never be a single diet that
works every single human on the planet. But the overwhelming majority of us
can not only live but thrive on a plant based diet.

People also mistakenly put way too much emphasis on protein and not nearly
enough on other nutrients. The average American, for example, gets way more
protein than they need and not nearly enough dietary fiber.

~~~
dizzystar
My basic issue with sweeping diet generalizations is that it often excludes
many people. As someone who has this very problem, I am confused by the
strange diets everyone is on. If only I had that choice! (I generally
dissociate myself from vegetarians and their ilk because I loathe talking
about it)

Regarding the topic of too much protein, nutrition doesn't quite work that
way. You can't go tick-tock on your diet just because you have too much
protein today; you will need protein until the day you die. You also need
suger, fat, salt, and yes, fiber.

It's also quite wrong to say everyone could be on a vegetarian / vegan diet
because you well know that it's quite dangerous if it isn't followed
correctly, and lo and behold, the average American is overweight.

We can sort of blame the new trend diets for the lack of fiber.

~~~
cageface
Heart disease is the leading killer in the US right now, the risk of which is
almost zero on a whole food, plant based diet. Your risk of cancer and
diabetes also go way up on a diet rich in animal products. Vegans are also the
_only_ demographic with a normal body mass index, and obesity is linked to
many other health issues.

Which diet is dangerous again?

Unless you're eating a really weird diet it's almost impossible to get enough
calories but not enough protein. Eating a healthy vegan diet is easy and
easier now than it's ever been with the wealth of information out there.

------
xexers
When talking about the ethics of eating meat, we often focus on the ethics of
killing animals... but it's also worth talking about the ethics towards out
fellow human beings.

In bullet form, it's worth thinking about:

* Swine flu killed an estimated 1 million people (and made many other sick for a whole week). Swine flu was directly a result of factory farming

* many of our antibiotics arent working any more and people are dying in hospitals because of it

* We are overfishing the entire ocean. Some communities are poor and rely on those fish to survive. Us rich people are taking food from the poor

* Slash/burn deforestation of rainforests has largely been from farmers who want to either raise beer or grow soy (to feed to animals). Those forests are often home to aboriginal people.

* (the contents of this article)

~~~
dbg31415
I grew up on a cattle ranch. We butchered our own cattle.

Please don't assume all meat comes from conditions described in this article.

Slaughterhouse / factory systems are disgusting. I don't eat meat that I know
was sourced this way.

You can, fairly easily in most places, support your local farmers and ranchers
and buy direct.

And if you want to know why it's not easier to get locally sourced meat from
family farms / small producers, you can look to the government. They've done
all they can over the last 30 years to make it next to impossible for the
"little guys" in the business.

* Small Meat Producers Take Their Slaughterhouse Gripes To Congress : The Salt : NPR || [https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/10/15/448942740/sm...](https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/10/15/448942740/small-meat-producers-take-their-slaughterhouse-gripes-to-congress)

~~~
shlant
> "Please don't assume all meat comes from conditions described in this
> article."

Every time something like this comes to HN, someone always has to point out
that not ALL meat comes from CAFO's.

For anyone interested, the top 4 beef producers account for over 80% of the
production:

[http://www.foodcircles.missouri.edu/07contable.pdf](http://www.foodcircles.missouri.edu/07contable.pdf)

So yea, you can go ahead and focus on how there is a sliver of meat consumed
that didn't come from horrid conditions, but you'd be minimizing the true
reality

------
cageface
One more reason to stop supporting the horrific animal agriculture industry in
this country. You don’t _need_ anything they produce and their business is
morally and environmentally toxic.

~~~
anonymous5133
Couldn't agree more.

------
gerdesj
OSHA = "Occupational Safety and Health Administration". The article says that
OSHA fines are rarely above $20,000. Is that really true?

In the UK, I think the equivalent agency is HSE - Health and Safety Executive.
These is the first things I found to demonstrate a possible difference:

"Martin McColl Limited and JMS Retail Concepts Limited have both been
sentenced today after two members of the public tripped and fell over
construction work outside a convenience store in Dinas Powys, Vale of
Glamorgan. ... Martin McColl Limited of Ashwells Road, Brentwood, Essex
pleaded guilty on the first day of a two day trial after initially pleading
not guilty to breaching Section 3(1) of the Health & Safety at Work etc. Act
1974, and have been fined £600,000 and ordered to pay costs of £11,520.

JMS Retail Concepts Limited of Stump Lane, Chorley, Lancashire pleaded guilty
to breaching Section 3(1) of the Health & Safety at Work etc. Act 1974, and
have been fined £40,000 and ordered to pay costs of £3,038."

[http://press.hse.gov.uk/2017/retail-company-and-
construction...](http://press.hse.gov.uk/2017/retail-company-and-construction-
contractor-fined-over-safety-failings/)

Contrast that with this:

"The U.S. Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration
(OSHA) has cited Tampa Electric Co. and Gaffin Industrial Services Inc. after
five employees were fatally injured, and one other suffered serious burns. ...
Proposed penalties for both companies totaled $160,972."

[https://www.osha.gov/news/newsreleases/region4/12282017](https://www.osha.gov/news/newsreleases/region4/12282017)

------
jessaustin
OK, this job is objectively worse than the one we were worrying about earlier
today:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16033895](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16033895)

~~~
kiwicopple
This reply might not be a popular (judging by the comments in this thread),
but I worked in an abattoirs for 4 years and I want to point out that the
article has a bit of an agenda:

> The only slaughterhouse job worse than eviscerating animals is cleaning up
> afterward. The third-shift workers, as the cleaners are often called, wade
> through blood and grease and chunks of bone and flesh, racing all night to
> hose down the plant with disinfectants and scalding water. The stench is
> unbearable. Many workers retch.

I should mention that I worked in New Zealand so YMMV, but this was never my
experience. There was cleanup with high pressure hoses throughout the day,
most of the time cold water to save power. No animals were eviscerated, they
want as little wastage as possible; if it isn't consumable by humans it can be
sold as animal food. The animals were knocked out (like a strong taser) before
they were killed. Nobody was retching; it smelled bad (particularly pigs) but
you get used to in the same way you adjust to any bad smell.

I agree with the comments here that we need to move quickly to lab-grown meat
or a vegetarian diet. But I have to acknowledge that the abattoirs I worked at
acted as responsibly and humanely as possible

~~~
robotresearcher
If the bowels of the animal were separated from the rest of its body, it was
eviscerated, by definition.

~~~
kiwicopple
Huh, TIL! Thanks for info, I had a much more graphic definition in my mind

------
jpollock
NOTE: DEFINITELY NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH.

I went looking for example videos of cleanup:

USA: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUJ4vI-
JA88](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUJ4vI-JA88)

Poland(?):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enTQhNx_jpg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enTQhNx_jpg)

Why you clean the plant daily:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Canada_listeriosis_outbre...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Canada_listeriosis_outbreak)

~~~
anonymous5133
You don't necessarily need to clean the plant daily. Bigger ag producers
(especially poultry) are protected from certain food-borne illness lawsuits
because it is impossible to remove those pathogens from the food supply, even
with cleaning. Salmonella is one of them and there is a new antibiotic
resistance strain that is spreading.

------
whyenot
The woman at the beginning of the article made $202 a week doing this work.
Based on the danger, the potential impact on human health and the US food
system, the limited job pool, it sure feels like this is the type of job that
should pay more.

~~~
ams6110
If the employer can find enough people willing to do it for $202 a week, then
that is what the job will pay.

------
Overtonwindow
From a policy standpoint, a major issue is that meatpacking and the use of
immigrant labor, can be compared to the rise of prisons, especially private
prisons. These become entrenched in small town America, making huge profits
for the local governments, and providing employment to a lot of people,
especially union. Anything that might jeopardize that is going to face a lot
of pressure from the congressional representatives for that area.

------
blfr
How can a large company openly hire illegal immigrants, who even take part in
court proceedings, without any consequences?

~~~
barry-cotter
There’s no political consensus in the US on enforcing immigration laws. The
only position that won’t get anybody condemning you in the Democratic Party is
Open Borders and there are plenty of Republicans willing to support any local
business.

Sanctuary cities exist. Large swathes of the US populace regard restricting
immigration as immoral and plenty of the rest have no particular desire to do
so. Why would there be consequences in those circumstances?

~~~
Chris2048
Larger swathes, but not the majority. I can't see how the law can just be
flaunted like this, for all the crying about Trump...

------
tremendulo
Honestly I think I'd get used to the smell and the sight of animal flesh
within a few weeks. But I guess the hard part, aside from the normal stresses
and strains of low-paid work, would be wearing rubber gloves, plastic
overalls, etc, in a humid environment.

------
SQL2219
“It’s sad to say, but it’s the gospel truth: Seven out of 10 Americans in the
Deep South, whether black or white, will fail the drug test”

~~~
JonnyNova
Not needing to subject yourself to drug testing for work definitely a perk of
certain industries.

