
Have you partnered with thieves and robbers? - webpasha
http://rodinhood.com/have-you-partnered-thieves-robbers
======
shasta
Am I the only one who came up with the solution "embed the ads in your game"
while reading the description of the problem? Of course, my excitement of
having guessed this plot twist faded when I read on about how this was
patented. Oh well, I'm sure the real genius was in the Romulan-like cloaking
technology they invented to hide the ads in the games.

~~~
reitzensteinm
It's also a poor solution! Getting people on your site is much more important
than getting people to play your game, because some % of your visitors will
return to check out what else you've done. If it's on other sites, they'll
return to check out what else is on that site - not your games.

Ads pay out little but you can make decent money out of a site with traction.
We don't even bother with ads on a lot of games at
<http://www.rocksolidarcade.com>. The traffic is more important.

~~~
andrewljohnson
His company sounds much bigger and more successful than yours. Maybe you
should take a lesson instead of critiquing what works.

~~~
reitzensteinm
I am speaking out of experience. I've done advertising on games that have been
played 100 million times around the net, and I've tried directing that traffic
back to my own site and profiting from selling games directly. The latter is
obscenely more profitable, both in my experience and that of everyone I know.

In terms of success? They took VC and grew very well, we bootstrapped our way
to 5 employees without taking a dime. Total investment under a thousand
dollars and profitable after a few months. In terms of raw game play counts,
I'd bet money on us being ahead.

All in all, I'd rather be in their position not mine, but I guarantee you, the
strategy outlined is not the reason why. And their greater success does not
mean that I should not be allowed to have an opinion on what I've been doing
successfully myself for years!

By the way, if one must always learn from more successful companies, it would
be hard to argue the case for Zynga to switch their monetization strategy over
to ads.

------
Ygor
"if Virgin Music and EMI etc., would have bought Napster (instead of suing it
and closing it down) and then converted the site into their official mp3
website, iTunes would have been a me-too and not the gorilla it is today"

This part is interesting. Not so because of the concrete actors mentioned, but
overall. It raises the question about the way the whole film/game/music
industry battles piracy. Do You think they too could have found a better way,
making it all to their benefit (and profit). Or have they done that already?

~~~
ZachPruckowski
The "music industry" got screwed on like 4 fronts at once. Actual piracy hurt,
but the move from $20 CDs to $1 singles killed the "2-4 singles and 6-10
fillers" album model (now you're getting $2 for something you could have
gotten $20 for, and sales didn't quintuple), falling production costs made
Label Loan Sharking less attractive, and a rise of new distribution venues
(MySpace and YouTube, where recorded music is a loss-leader for merch and
concert sales) weakened their distribution monopoly.

They could probably survive or solve any one of those problems, but there's no
way to survive all four.

The film industry has to wrangle with piracy, but there's still a large entry
barrier to make something that looks like it has high production values.
Similarly, there are fewer new distribution options, because there's no real
"films as a loss leader" business model. They are picking up the pace of
innovation with stuff like HD and 3D and 2K/4K precisely so that they can move
the goal-posts on production/distribution upstarts. You can throw together a
simple romantic comedy with few locations and no special effects for a few
hundred thousand, but a HighDef 3-D adventure with city-bending CGI and
special effects is gonna set you back piles of money.

~~~
fragmede
The film industry's high entry barrier is getting much, much lower. An Avid
editing workstation now costs < $10k, they used to be more like $50k. At this
years NAB, DaVinci (high-end color correcting software), went from being a
$200k Linux system, to a $1k software package to be run on a Mac Pro you
already own.

2K DPX is now doable on a (high end) NAS system where previously you needed a
high end SAN with Fibre Channel, and Nvidia's Cuda makes a system that can do
do "city-bending CGI and special effects" positively affordable.

------
exit
i was on their side until the bit about patenting this.

but what does their patent mean? if i deploy this solution for my own games,
or make a business deploying it for others, will they come after me?

~~~
motters
Agree. Software algorithms should not be patentable.

~~~
sliverstorm
It sounds like they patented the idea of ads hiding invisibly inside the game

------
woodall
I am glad they found a way to make money from the pirated content, but
patenting that method was dirty.

~~~
gaius
I guess if you've seen your IP so blatantly stolen it would make you a bit
cynical.

------
ANH
This is technological Aikido, the Japanese martial art that can be roughly
translated as "the way of harmonious energy". One of its more well-known
practitioners wrote a book called 'Aikido in Everyday Life: Giving In to Get
Your Way'. This could probably be a case study for the next edition.

------
kuro3hat
> winning the nuclear war in planet start up

all start ups lose?

to the mine shafts!

~~~
phreeza
Beware of the mutant startups that survive at the surface!

~~~
shadowfox
A good shotgun will take care of that

------
adn37
Also, other games, simply refuse to load if they are executed within the
context of another domain (even blocking localhost).

I've seen it with Desktop tower defense. Can't tell I appreciate it, but it
should help fighting theft.

Though, is it really that hard to crack? (wrt to code obfuscation) Any
experience from flash developers?

~~~
disguisedcoder
I've only played a little bit with a flash decompiler.

Calls to the standard library and globals (like mouseX), etc. will remain as
is. So my _guess_ is that it would be not too hard to alter. But I'd be
surprised if such simple measures wouldn't cut off the majority of leechers.
Though as soon as one cracked version shows up on the internet, the whole
maneuver is rendered futile.

This is indeed an interesting topic, especially considering the options a) run
everywhere and show my ads (mochiads, cpmstar, ...?) or b) run only at my site
so I get all the traffic (not sure if this is compatible with those ad-
servers).

Well... this reminds me of the drm-struggle. Although the negative impact for
the enduser is a lot smaller (dysfunctional swf on a leecher site?), you'd
have to ask yourself how much time you'd like to spend with the arms race
rather than implementing features, fixing bugs or writing new games. As a
"content provider" there is probably no other way to keep sanity other than
accepting theft to some degree.

------
Rob_3882
BTW I am using SWF Protector to secure Flash code. <http://www.dcomsoft.com>

It works against the most popular Flash Decompilers. So hackers will not be
able to decompile my code. Although I think that experienced hacker can crack
the file anyway.

------
dzlobin
Hands up if you were entirely confused, expecting the page to have something
with robin hood.

~~~
pgbovine
From his 'about me' blurb:

 _Welcome to Rodinhood Inspired by Rodin who sculpted the Thinker and Robin
Hood who delivered. Hence Rodin+Hood. Enjoy my blogs, contribute by commenting
and sending me stuff that I could publish!_

------
giberson
Why not just check the request URL, and if it doesn't match your domain, or a
domain of your affiliate, display an invalid domain screen instead of the
game?

Toss in a frame breakout script for good measure.

Doesn't seem like a very difficult problem to fix.

~~~
autarch
Um, you can download a flash game and serve it yourself.

Of course, maybe they could've embedded a "phone home" check or something.

------
JoeAltmaier
Its called Pivoting, which every startup has to learn to be agile at.

------
timinman
fantastic attitude

------
rodinhood
@all - Quick points to clarify - my partner and I have 'filed' for patent but
not received it yet. The concept is not unique in itself - the auto switch
from visible to invisible is. As a fully funded VC company, any patent is
value creating - the intention is obviously to use the patent tag to then
seriously license the solution to folks like Viacom etc.

~~~
disguisedcoder
if (HOST != MYSERVER) { show_ad(); } This is silly.

I congratulate you for writing an interesting blog post and I can understand
that one would like to obtain a monopoly if he's found a working business
model, yet I consider such a practice to be highly unethical.

You are right in thinking that you deserve to reap the benefits after you've
found a solution to that problem. You truly do. But you're wrong in drawing
the conclusion that you've somehow acquired the right to shut out your
competition.

Software patents are a sham(e).

~~~
todayiamme
I won't argue with your viewpoint of the patent system, but at some level I
can understand why the OP did this. India is not a good place to do business
especially if you're a software company which is centered around being a
hotbed for innovation. The legal system is so slow that nuclear fusion would
have been invented by the time your case is resolved.

Down here it is common for people to copy your code by reverse engineering or
some other method and use it blatantly in their products, because they know
that you can't go after them. What a patent does is that it gives that aura of
security. I think that the indian govt. is trying to setup a fast track court
to deal with patent disputes in order to be globally competitive. So, people
are _less_ likely to mess with you if you have that bit over there.

In his point of view it is a defense tactic necessary for the survival of his
company. It is doubtful that his company would survive beyond a point if it
doesn't protect itself like this. I know this is wrong in so many ways, but
try to explain this to the trolls.

~~~
disguisedcoder
I can understand the desire to get a monopoly too, as I've pointed out. But I
also fail to see how the situation is any different in the rest of the world.
Don't let minor differences fool you. This is simply a case of a lack of
innovation and therefore they have no edge over their competition.

This ridicules the whole concept of software patents. Where they should
protect innovation they simply protect the lack thereof. If it was the other
way around, if they had such a great product that the competition had too much
work to do, they wouldn't need a patent in the first place. This is how the
rest of the world deals with the problem.

Now we know that having the best product is not a guarantee for success. And
that's where that unethical edge-taking via patents comes into play.

~~~
todayiamme
I know that.

The problem is that you're assuming that everyone is playing a level headed
game with you. I was born and raised in India. Even though I grew up elsewhere
inside my head, I've seen stuff that is so far out that I really couldn't
believe my eyes.

I've seen my father pile money into a black bag for his boss in order to bribe
a certain famous politician. Why? Well, they wanted to win the bid for
supplying _security_ gear to a certain infrastructural branch. I snorted in
disbelief and I was promptly rushed out of the room.

I've seen people copy and paste code for a living in a company. I've seen
family businesses that are hardly above being a gray mafia. I've seen people
burn their books every year to evade tax, and I've seen tax officials get
richer and richer all the time.

Do you want me to continue?

It is true that such stuff happens every where, but over here it is taken as
the birth right of a company to do so. As long as they have money in their
pockets no one can touch them. This is where scare tactics come in.

Whether or not his company is innovative is a question that comes into play
only when other people are competing in the same way. Trust me he has done
something extremely bold down here, but the trolls have more money and less
expenses. They don't need to hire people to develop stuff. They just copy
whatever he makes and bribe the officials so that they can get away.

If a patent deters them even one bit and allows him to thrive then I think it
is logical for him to do so. Right or wrong comes into the equation when
certain basic parameters are met.

Personally, I can't live like this and the minute I get an opportunity I will
pack my bags and leave. I want to spend my time creating beautiful things not
fighting trolls in the name of running a "business". So, in a way I applaud
him for standing his ground and fighting to make it down here. At the same
time I condemn him, but can I really blame him?

~~~
todayiamme
@disguisedcoder I really hope that I didn't come off as a rude jerk or
something. I know that it is difficult to understand how much your environment
shapes the decisions you need to take in order to survive.

>>>your indian point of view<<<

That's the problem. I was born here. I've stayed here all my life, but it's
like I've grown up elsewhere. Somewhere in my head. Try to understand
something I don't represent the average indian view, and neither do I have any
feelings of patriotism or stuff like that. I don't get choked up over national
flags, parades or holidays. As George Carlin would say they are symbols and I
leave symbols to the simple minded.

So, don't take me as a representative of India or anything like that. I just
observe and move on. Earlier I used to get fired up, but now I realize; what's
the use?

Anyway, thank you for replying.

~~~
disguisedcoder
Don't worry. :-) It's funny that everything discussed here is globally
applicable. I'm not patriotism-crazy either. Your view added at least another
insight into the motivation of such a move (patenting).

------
mkramlich
patenting the obvious... again. hope it's not granted.

------
J3L2404
Either embrace or deflect, why fight? Also you can sail into a headwind if you
tack.

