
Dalai Lama says there are 'too many refugees in Europe' - mooseburger
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/dalai-lama-says-too-many-refugees-in-europe-a7058911.html
======
g123g
I am still not sure why it is a good idea to let millions get displaced from
the ancestral lands, having hundreds of them dying while trying to migrate and
then the remaining ones living isolated lives in alien countries with those
countries supporting them by spending billions of dollars every year and
having culture and way of life changed forever. Compare this to taking on ISIS
once and for all which numbers about 30,000 - 40,000 fighters. Wouldn't it be
better to spend those billions of dollars and take on some inevitable loss of
life and annihilate them forever. From where did we all start believing in the
defeatist mentality that world cannot take on ISIS? That land belongs to the
Syrians and Iraqis and not to some 7th century cult. The best solution is to
return that land to whom it belongs rather than taking millions of refugees
and creating problems from them as well as for ourselves. If you want to take
in refugees then there is no end to it, billions of ppl would like to move to
Europe or USA. Whom are you going to deny and on what basis?

~~~
a_j_b
What caused ISIS? The war in Afghanistan, and especially Iraq. The dictator
was toppled, and not effectively replaced. Saddam may have not been the nicest
guy, but he lead a fairly stable country. He was firmly in charge.

By not effectively replacing the leader of a country, it leads to a power
vacuum, looking for someone to take that power. ISIS grew to fill that void.
If you displace them, someone else will come along and take that power,
potentially even worse than ISIS

~~~
Shivetya
I would go much further back than those two wars, simply put this is a
situation that had been brewing for many years and simply got to where it was
through better organization abilities of the groups and the withdrawing of
forces to keep the peace. Our actions in Libya, Syria, and elsewhere,
certainly have dug the hole deeper.

But lets be honest, go back to the Treaty of Sèvres and subsequent assigning
of territory to European countries and how it was done without regard to the
religious and ethnic traits of those living there. As in, European Colonialism
started this mess as it did in Africa. This did not happen in the last twenty
years, this is generation after generation finally reaching a point to where
they could act.

If you keep arming all sides and leave it is to be expected.

------
dalke
> "The Dalai Lama, who often speaks of humanity's need to acknowledge its
> "oneness", is a refugee himself. ... From a moral point of view, too, I
> think that the refugees should only be admitted temporarily ... The goal
> should be that they return and help rebuild their countries."

Well, yes. The former sovereign of Tibet has long wanted to regain control,
preferably with full independence, though more recently accepting high-level
autonomy.

But we can't always get what we want.

If the Chinese government refuse to restore autonomous rule to the
satisfaction of the exiled government, then what is India supposed to do?
Granting citizenship seems the most humane of the possible solutions.

If the US government is unable to change the government of Cuba (including the
disastrous attempt at the Bay of Pigs and the decades long trade embargo) to
the satisfaction of the Cuban exiles in the US, then what is the US supposed
to do? Prevent the children of Rafael Díaz-Balart - the exiled majority leader
of the Cuban House of Representatives before Castro came to power - from being
elected to office in the US?

If there is no peace in Syria, so the goal of returning home cannot be
achieved, what then?

~~~
forgotpwtomain
> If the US government is unable to change the government of Cuba (including
> the disastrous attempt at the Bay of Pigs and the decades long trade
> embargo)

The longest standing issue facing Cubans _is_ the US trade embargo and that
has always been in it's power to fix...

> If there is no peace in Syria, so the goal of returning home cannot be
> achieved, what then

There is no peace in Syria because of over a decade of destabilizing policies
and engagements by the US in that region, which Europe has mostly supported.

More generally, as to 2of3 examples which you provided - the refugees aren't
due to some terrible internal policies of these countries or natural
catastrophies - but majorly due to Western/US involvement.

~~~
bryanlarsen
"There is no peace in Syria because of over a decade of destabilizing policies
and engagements by the US in that region, which Europe has mostly supported."

There are probably about a dozen major causes of the problems in Syria, of
which US/western involvement is only one. There's lots of blame to be spread
around.

~~~
iak8god
> There are probably about a dozen major causes of the problems in Syria, of
> which US/western involvement is only one.

Can we get a few examples?

~~~
jcranmer
* The failure of the Ottoman Empire to create a unified culture and nation state.

* Religious rivalry between Sunni and Shiite Islam.

* Regional rivalry between Saudi Arabia (an autocratic Sunni state heavily reliant on a very conservative sect (Wahhabi) for legitimacy) and Iran (a theocratic Shiite state).

* Oil being the main economic mainstay, and not being conveniently divvied up among different ethnic regions

* Great power ambitions on the part of Turkey

* Superpower ambitions on the part of Russia

* The failure of any state in the region to produce viable governments with strong internal legitimacy, rather than series of political "revolutions" that led to changing merely of who was treating the state as their feeding trough

* Western engagement in the region

* Western disengagement in the region (damned if you do, damned if you don't...)

I'm probably missing some, but it's worth noting that while the Iraq War
didn't help the situation in the Middle East, it's not like a strong dictator
is an effective guarantee of internal security--after all, the Arab Spring
started in Tunisia, instigated primarily by local causes (and the only country
that seems to have actually improved its situation as a result!).

~~~
FreedomToCreate
This comment should be at the top. So many westerners who bash their own
governments, communities and beliefs without any real knowledge of the
situations and what caused them.

------
adrenalinelol
Refugees by definition are poor (civil war wiped out their livelihood in this
instance). They end up relying on the government safety-net, which is better
than nothing, but normally still a barely above poverty life-style. This
congregates the migrants in migrant only areas; to where they do not
experience the culture of the nation which is now their home, in a way a
normal immigrant would... Thus there is no real pressure to assimilate and the
customs which aren't congruent with western society which are endemic in parts
of the Arab world remain(woman's rights, freedom of religion, etc...).

~~~
matt4077
> Refugees by definition are poor

The "by definition" makes it easy to refute, I just need a single example.
Let's take the Jews fleeing Germany in the 40ies, or, for kicks&giggles: the
Dalai Lama.

> They end up relying on the government safety-net

While poor people tend to do that, you're generalizing from the usual case to
the special. If I burn down all your immobile possessions, will you just throw
your hands in the air and say "fuck it, I'll do welfare from here on out"? Not
saying that it's to start anew in a different country, but if you take the
average person, and then select those marching through the desert for 40
weeks, you'll end up with someone vastly different than your average welfare
recipient.

> This congregates the migrants in migrant only areas;

Possibly true in France, not so much in, say, Germany, where all the cool kidz
want to move to the inner-city with their start-ups and underground parties.

> Thus there is no real pressure to assimilate

It sounds like there'd be economic pressure, or are immigrants just too happy
with a "barely above poverty life-style"?

> and the customs which aren't congruent with western society which are
> endemic in parts of the Arab world remain(woman's rights, freedom of
> religion, etc...)

Very much enjoying how everybody-and-their-racist-uncle is discovering women's
rights these days. If only they'd be so open-minded when they hear that >90%
of sexual assaults are perpetrated by, well, that uncle. Or some other family
member.

~~~
coldtea
> _The "by definition" makes it easy to refute, I just need a single example._

On the contrary. By definition here is used casually and doesn't mean
"necessarily everybody" just the vast majority.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
That doesn't work at all adrenalinelol should have just said something like
"are primarily poor because of their refugee status".

The term 'by definition' means that all of the mentioned group have the
particular characteristic, it absolutely is saying "necessarily everyone". If
you don't mean to strictly require that condition then use different
terminology.

~~~
coldtea
Casual conversation is usually not very strict. In any case, it was obvious
from the context that parent didn't mean "absolutely every single refugee must
be poor".

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I don't think that was clear: it's a common misunderstanding that all refugees
are poor, political rhetoric often tries to emphasise this in order to sway
people against migrants.

Totally agree about casual conversation but the modification of these
expression by addition of "by definition" IMO flips this to be a statement of
fact that should be challenged if it's false. There was no need to add that
emphasis and it pushed the statement to being demonstrably false.

------
unfortunateface
Since when did HN become reddit? Why is this story even on here?

------
the_jp
Dalai seems to be a mere mortal after all, and prioritizing Tibet over
compassion in this case.

~~~
jbmorgado
The Dalai Lama fought most of his life for the right to cultural identity.
It's exactly what he is asking for here, that one society doesn't get its
cultural identity destroyed by an influx of individuals from another society.

