
Rowling, Rushdie and Atwood warn against ‘intolerance’ in open letter - martinskou
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jul/08/jk-rowling-rushdie-and-atwood-warn-against-intolerance-in-open-letter
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zozbot234
The letter itself was discussed at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23759283](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23759283)

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martinskou
The letter [https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-
debate/](https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/)

~~~
verdverm
Thanks for sharing the original letter!

Many good points therein, can we still able to have a conversation about
conversations, are we too far gone, can we course correct?

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recursivedoubts
_> We need to preserve the possibility of good-faith disagreement without dire
professional consequences._

All fine and good, but the authors need to specifically say what topics good
faith disagreement can be had on or this is just special pleading on behalf of
their particular point on the ideological spectrum.

~~~
slowmovintarget
Don't you have that backward? If they had to specify the topics, then that
would be special pleading. As it is, they're making a case for the default
position; "general pleading" so to speak.

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jfengel
My feeling is that the origin of attack on allies (people largely on your side
who also partly disagree or speak in a tone-deaf way) stems from the broader
hostility between left and right. That has made progress impossible, and faced
with frustration at the lack of communication or any hint of compromise,
people lash out at those who should be on their own side. At least they're
listening.

I don't like it either, and I don't think it's helpful, but I understand the
frustration. Fragmentation has long been a problem for progressivism. There
are so many injustices, and since each happens to a group that is
marginalized, the only way forward is unity. We have to back each other.
Especially since the system is designed to be conservative: it requires
multiple branches to pass legislation, any of whom can halt it, sometimes by a
minority vote. About the only significant progress ever comes only from the
Supreme Court, which is dominated by conservative judges who will often
prescribe a legislative solution. Which they know won't happen.

People should be able to disagree publicly and loudly with their allies. But
when faced with an opposition who will oppose anything you say solely because
you say it (even reversing their own past positions to do so), you face an
impossible dilemma. You need unity, but can't reach it without disagreeing
publicly. And when you despair from the fact that the system is stacked
against you and you perceive that nothing you do will help, lashing out at any
pretext at least feels like some kind of accomplishment.

We need to fight against that impulse, but we won't do that without
identifying the cause. And I believe that the cause stems from the right wing
intransigence that has long since past any sincere ideological disagreement
into active hostility and denial of reality. If we can't win fights against
people who deny well-recognized science on many fronts, and promote conspiracy
theories not just at the fringes but at all top levels of leadership, how can
we actually win anything?

~~~
yummypaint
This is very true. It isn't possible for two political parties to have
fruitful process and debate without both acting in good faith.

I would also point out that for many white people in the US, political
affiliation is merely a way to claim tribal membership in a group as our
fundamental rights are already secure. Of course this is also true more
generally, but look at polling information by demographic and it's clear for
example that black voters aren't confused about who is working against their
interests, and largely vote accordingly. The tribalistic people have little
inherant interest in policy, and care much more about protecting their
identities as group members. There can be value in exerting internal pressure
on those people to statistically help move the herd. An analogy might be a dog
snapping at sheep to move them to safety. A sheep dog that gets too agressive
and actually bites to cause injury is counterproductive, so this has to be
done diplomatically.

~~~
zozbot234
> Of course this is also true more generally, but look at polling information
> by demographic and it's clear for example that black voters aren't confused
> about who is working against their interests, and largely vote accordingly.
> ...

You do realize that this is a tautological argument, right? One could just as
easily argue that black people are voting for policymakers who, by and large,
seek to patronize and infantilize them, thereby "protecting their identities
as group members" even as they're in fact working against their long-term
interests.

~~~
yummypaint
You should try talking to black people sometime and you will see this is not
the case

~~~
zozbot234
Talking to voters is always a good idea, of course. I'm fairly sure that quite
a few white voters would want to similarly disabuse us both of this notion
that they only vote based on pure tribal loyalty, and don't actually care
about their broader interests, however construed.

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troughway
“Rowling, whose beliefs on transgender rights have recently seen scores of
Harry Potter fans distance themselves from her [...]”

That’s an understatement. She’s effectively canceled for rest of her writing
career for even thinking what she ended up writing.

Looking forward to the next chapter though - the best is yet to come.

~~~
krapp
>She’s effectively canceled for rest of her writing career for even thinking
what she ended up writing.

No, she isn't. Her views on transgender rights, offensive as I and many others
find them, are still comfortably mainstream. She lost a lot of Harry Potter
fans, but a lot of fans have also chosen to divorce their love of her work
from her politics, and many others simply couldn't care less. I seriously
doubt publishers are going to refuse to publish her, bookstores to stock her,
or studios to turn down piles of money from franchising her work. I seriously
doubt that she's going to be wanting for fame, readership or money in the
forseeable future.

~~~
zozbot234
Unfortunately, her concerns are still far from "mainstream". Most people have
no idea that "detransitioning" is actually a thing for quite a few trans
folks, or that "rapid onset" gender-dysphoric identity is a serious concern as
relating to a minority of young people whose self-perception and orientation
seems to be strongly influenced by their "progressive" social milieus.

