
Launch HN: Quell (YC S20) – Immersive gaming and combat workout - douglaspaul
Hey HN,<p>We&#x27;re Cam, Doug, Lorenzo and Martin, co-founders of Quell (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;quell.tech" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;quell.tech</a>).<p>Quell is an immersive fitness game which guides players through an exciting, effective combat workout at home. Players fight enemies with a low-cost wearable which uses smart resistance bands to simulate real combat training. Our aim is to be Peloton meets gaming meets boxing, at 1&#x2F;10th of the price. We launched on Kickstarter yesterday, and would love it if you checked us out! Here’s the link: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kickstarter.com&#x2F;projects&#x2F;quelltech&#x2F;quell-real-gaming-real-exercise-zero-compromise" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kickstarter.com&#x2F;projects&#x2F;quelltech&#x2F;quell-real-ga...</a><p>We started building Quell because for us, exercise wasn’t fun; it was work. We’d tried all the stats tracking apps and the cycling simulators, but they weren’t treating that root problem. Over time, as the novelty wore off, we were left with the feeling that working out was still boring and uncomfortable.<p>As big gamers, gamification seemed like an obvious solution. We looked at what was happening in this space and felt that exercise games tended to compromise on the exercise or the game. We believed that, if we could get both right, we could make something we’d want to play. Everything in the market was focussed on running, cycling or yoga&#x2F;pilates, so we went with boxing as a more intense and cathartic alternative.<p>We realised that Quell could be a real business when we started talking to people about exercise. Everyone was facing the same two problems: obstacles, and a lack of reward. The absence of immediate rewards when you exercise means that you have to propel yourself using long-term benefits, and most of us are bad at this. On top of that, seemingly small barriers like weather, travel, set-up, knowledge and equipment sharing have a massive impact on people&#x27;s ability to commit.<p>The team started working together in February, but we all had other things going on. Cam had just left his career in management consulting to do a design master’s. Martin was wrapping up his PhD in sensor tech at Oxford. Doug was building a business providing remote working and development retreats. Lorenzo was doing a design master’s to pursue a career in prosthetic design. None of us had the financial stability to make this our full-time job, so we decided to develop the product over a year or two in our spare time. After a month, we applied to YC with zero expectation of being accepted. Our idea was basically a punching bag with a screen, and we knew it wasn’t where we wanted it to be. We saw the YC application as a forcing mechanism to put some rigour behind the business, and an exciting experience to go through.<p>Then Covid hit, and the target market went from ‘people who don’t like exercise’ to ‘people who don’t like home exercise or running around the same park every day’. We went into overdrive, using all of our days off and lunch breaks to develop the product. Despite all this effort, the pace was glacial. All the workshops closed during lockdown, so we had no tools. We were separated in different parts of the UK, trying to build hardware via Zoom. Then YC accepted us, and we could finally focus! We left our jobs and degrees. Everyone moved into Cam&#x27;s apartment. We bought a 3D printer, a sewing machine and a bunch of electronics and textiles. We spent all day every day looping through talking to users, collating insights, designing and prototyping.<p>We learned that no one wanted the hassle of a punchbag, but everyone loved the idea of feeling the satisfying physical resistance of punching something at home. We built a wearable which applied customisable resistance to punches through swappable elastic bands, and it landed well. We started looking at computer vision to translate player punches into the game, but our potential users hated the idea of setting up a camera. After hundreds of hours spent punching the air in our living room, we found that we could get high-accuracy, low-latency gesture recognition through a neural net applied to inertial measurement units in the gloves.<p>We made a quick video and website with our first prototype (link here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;drive.google.com&#x2F;file&#x2F;d&#x2F;1hrIegPSxko2JPzsztm_1UmV4iROdQKki&#x2F;view?usp=sharing" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;drive.google.com&#x2F;file&#x2F;d&#x2F;1hrIegPSxko2JPzsztm_1UmV4iRO...</a>), then started advertising on Facebook and Instagram to see how it landed. The response was incredible, with CPA coming in 75% lower than our benchmarks. We opened pre-orders to test whether these people would convert and got fifty orders in the first month. After drafting our bill of materials, we settled on a price of $200 for the wearable and $10&#x2F;mo in subscription fees, which works out at less than half the average gym membership. With 55m active gamers paying for a gym membership pre-covid, we estimate a market size of $18bn.<p>With the financials sorted and the early market validation complete, we felt confident in building towards a Kickstarter. For the last month, we’ve been working hard on turning ideas into concept art into game content, making the product look and feel good, shooting the video, writing the copy, pricing, costing, and growing our sign-up list. We launched our Kickstarter yesterday, and have recieved over $60k in pledges in our first 24 hours. You can check out the full video of our new prototype at <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kickstarter.com&#x2F;projects&#x2F;quelltech&#x2F;quell-real-gaming-real-exercise-zero-compromise" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kickstarter.com&#x2F;projects&#x2F;quelltech&#x2F;quell-real-ga...</a>.<p>We’re continuing to develop the hardware and the game in parallel, and would love to hear what HN loves and hates, as well as any questions you might have. We’ll be on here every waking hour (UK time) to respond as soon as humanly possible. Thank you!
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the_duke
Love the idea, and I'd be very much interested in trying this out.

Having done a little bit of boxing, it's a pretty good full body workout. It's
hard to say how the resistance bands would feel compared to a punching bag
though. Also: how do they work for different punches like uppercuts?

How would you track blocking? How accurate is the position tracking? The
tracking animation notably only measures one dimension (extension), not the
direction in 3D. That seems quite hard just with the bands.

Another concern: I feel like for many users the punching motions would get
boring really quickly.

Engaging game(s) would be key. Since it's all you do, the punching must be
satisfying. Including making me "feel" the impact. That means: smooth
animations with accurate position tracking, quality audio, ....

What I see in the video does not work so well for me. Having some variety
would also be key. Eg have a basic boxing ring available for mindless
punching, but also a more engaging RPG style game where you don't punch all
the time - for longer sessions.

Building full-fledged quality games in addition to the hardware seems like a
very big task.

Have you thought about searching for interesting indie games (including the
various VR boxing variations) and looking for partnerships?

~~~
glitcher
I also love this idea, and the body harness looks like a very innovative
approach.

I agree with many of the concerns OP mentions, especially the need for a
variety of engaging games. The demo game feels a little too cartoony for my
taste, would love to see more titles in different styles.

Another concern I have is how can it help reinforce proper posture, body
positioning, and footwork? I realize this is very difficult to address, but
those fundamentals are extremely important and seem to me to be areas where
many beginners could develop bad habits if not corrected somehow.

~~~
douglaspaul
Thanks for the feedback, and you've raised some great points.

We're absolutely on-board with the idea of multiple games - we have the launch
title being developed (that you've seen in our current artwork), and others in
mind. Out of interest, what would be your preferred style of game for combat
fitness? We've had some good discussions around this in our Discord server.

To your concerns re: body posture and movement; you couldn't be more right
about the importance of getting these aspects right. We have experience both
within our team and our advisers covering everything from international boxing
to prosthetic design - we are taking the ergonomics and science very seriously
for this exactly reason.

~~~
glitcher
For me personally, I would prefer a more realistic style fighting game for
combat fitness where my opponent looks and moves like a real person. Or even
something along the lines of the classic arcade fighting games like Mortal
Kombat where the violence gets a little more graphic. Basically games that
feel like they are targeted at adults instead of all ages family friendly. But
I understand the need for variety, and applaud the progress made so far on
this project.

~~~
douglaspaul
I can tell you we share that view - we're looking forward to growing out more
games in the future, however we aim to make the launch time compelling to
users of all ages, and that means getting the story absolutely right. There
were definitely jokes in the team early on about licensing Mortal Kombat to up
the ante of the fights!

~~~
faitswulff
After thinking about it for a day or so, I think what the Quell demo is
missing for me is simplicity. Boxing is pretty fun by itself and there’s a lot
of potential depth in building up different combinations of punches and the
rhythmic nature of the exercises. So a simple Wii Sports or even Dance Dance
Revolution style trainer would appeal more to me than a cartoon style game. If
I were eight years old, it would be absolutely the reverse, but what I want as
an adult is just the boxing.

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aidenn0
Here's old grouchy me talking:

I don't like subscription games, particularly games like this that don't seem
to need any network connection at all to function.

I still play games that I bought over 30 years ago. Quell probably won't be
still running their servers for the original game in 30 years, and if they are
I'll have paid $4k for the privilege of renting this game indefinitely.

I get that I'm not the target audience, and for many people $5-10 per month
feels like a better deal than $70 upfront for a AAA game, but I personally
won't back something that is useless without a subscription fee.

If for for $X I could get the game, Y months of whatever the subscription
provides (Events, whatever) and the guarantee that the game will still work
when the servers shutdown or my subscription expires, that would totally
interest me.

~~~
messiahtyler
It looks like you get Quell single player free for life and the subscription
is Quell +, I may have missed something where it mentions you need a constant
internet connection though. Quote from the kickstarter: "Everyone who buys
Quell gets the base game, for free, for life."

~~~
aidenn0
Oh, I'm suddenly interested again; thanks for pointing that out!

~~~
m_tweedie
Happy to hear it! And to confirm, messiahtyler is correct—Quell+ provides
additional content on top of the base Quell experience, enabling us to keep
developing fresh experiences within the game.

~~~
aidenn0
I'm totally cool paying extra for premium content, I just don't want to be
renting my video games :)

~~~
m_tweedie
Hear, hear!

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itake
> High Impact Exercise

I think you're using the wrong words there. "High Impact" workouts in the
fitness world mean they are harder on your joints and tendons (think
crossfit/hiit vs low impact like spin cycles).

Since you aren't punching anything and you're not jerking your body around,
I'd imagine this is more mid-impact?

[https://www.humana.com/prevention-and-care/healthy-living-
an...](https://www.humana.com/prevention-and-care/healthy-living-and-
prevention/fitness-and-exercise/low-impact)

~~~
mritchie712
They're looking for "High Intensity" (the HI in HIIT)

~~~
lorespreafico
That's true, thanks for the input! :)

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sankalp221
I know this currently isn't your focus, but please consider adding the option
to just purchase the resistance strap setup. There are a lot of VR Fitness
boxing games where people are trying to add more resistance to their VR Boxing
workouts in order to get a better workout. They are buying weighted vests, but
this would be a great thing to make the existing workout experience in VR even
better.

~~~
lspreafico
Hey! :) Love this idea, and we will definitely consider it. Thank you for your
input!

~~~
101008
Exactly this ,please. I need something like this ASAP. And I would have bought
Quell, but I am afraid shipping to my country would be expensive and
problematic.

~~~
douglaspaul
We're coming as fast as we can! If you're unsure about shipping for now,
you're very welcome to join our Discord server, where our community are
chatting about all things gaming and fitness.

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moritonal
Looks fun, I have a Vive VR and enjoy workouts on it. Few questions:

I know next to nothing about being fit and working out, but would this workout
target pretty much a single muscle group with resistance?

If it's all running on the phone, hows battery life? Between running the game
and processing motion data what's the specs required?

I'm guessing a motion tracker in both hands and in the body to detect motion,
but that'd drift if you allow movement. Are you planning on using any body-
tracking ML with the phone's camera? Otherwise it sounds like the game will be
a linear rail-road.

Finally, given it's elastic, how easy is it to hit yourself in the face if
your arm gives out at full stretch?

~~~
lspreafico
Hey! Lorenzo from Quell here :) We're working super hard to make sure that
Quell trains effectively different muscles group. We've been talking to
professional athletes to find creative ways to do so, and are developing
hardware and software features to make sure that Quell supports a varied
workout that trains both upper and lower body. We don't know specific device
specs yet, but we're really focussed on keeping the game light, so that users
can run it on their mobile phones with no issue - this will also reduce the
impact on battery life! :) Regarding the camera, it's something that we're
considering for the future, but we're super proud to say that our accuracy is
already particularly good, and not having to set up a camera is one less
hassle for user experience! There's very little chance of you hitting yourself
in the face: the elastic mechanism is made in such way that the resistance
only kicks in midway through the punch! This increases safety and improves how
satisfying the punches are, as many of our users told us!

Hope that answers your questions :)

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nartz
This looks cool - but it would be 100% cooler if it was just a wearable, that
I could customize to use with other games - for instance, World of Warcraft,
punching to initiate an attack, and different motions to use items, 'click',
etc.

I can't imagine using the wearable very much if the game itself isn't
compelling - which, from the movie, looks a little wack

~~~
mlkmt
I agree, it would be awesome. Thinks like virzoom bike controller are pretty
fun and unlock unexpected use cases (see
[https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/5y15vx/elit...](https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/5y15vx/elite_dangerous_virzoom_perfect_vr_workout_xpost/)
for a fun take on that)

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arendtio
I just hope the variety of movements goes beyond those seen in the video. So
far it really looks like a boxing simulator and the repetitiveness of the
Kickstarter video doesn't give the impression of an exciting game (you might
consider cutting it to half the duration).

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a great idea. I just wonder how much better
it will be than Wii Sports and if you will even achieve those levels. For that
to happen, your game must be addictive. In my experience, that works best if
the player can build things within the game (think Stardew Valley/Minecraft,
not character cosmetics).

~~~
lspreafico
Hey! Lorenzo from Quell here. Thank you, really appreciate the feedback. We're
working really hard to add movements to the game - for us, it is absolutely
key that it doesn't feel like a boxing simulator. We're also working on many
other aspects to make the game fun and enjoyable long-term: we're building a
fully fledged story, a super wide variety of enemies, main characters,
environments, movements and spells, and one of our stretch goals is to develop
a roguelike mode, which would really push our users to their limit!

If you have more feedback / input, please do let us know! Thank you!

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learnstats2
Congrats on raising a bunch of money!

To me, this looks very comparable to Fitness Boxing for the Nintendo Switch. I
tried the demo of that intending to purchase, but then dropped out.

Regarding Fitness Boxing: \- I didn't feel comfortable with the workout: since
I have never boxed before, I was confident that my form was bad and had too
few pointers to feel good about it.

\- I ideally wanted a whole body workout, and there was no focus on the lower
body at all.

\- It felt tough already without resistance bands, so I wouldn't be confident
about whether those were bringing a useful benefit for me.

~~~
m_tweedie
Thanks! We are very conscious of the fact that most of our users won't have
experience with boxing, and plan to go to significantly greater lengths than
games like Fitness Boxing to ensure that the player's technique is solid.
Quell analyses your movements and tells you in clear terms how to improve.
We'll also be including full-body movements like ducks and dodges to make it a
more complete workout experience. To your last point—the resistance is
adjustable, meaning you can dial it back to a point that you feel comfortable.
Furthermore, adding resistance can actually help to make the experience feel
more comfortable as it prevents the hard hyper-extension that can happen with
straight shots when shadowboxing.

~~~
learnstats2
Thanks!

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shay_ker
I absolutely LOVE this. Really considering backing the kickstarter.

Some thoughts I had off the top of my head:

\- This seems feels like a good use case for VR to have something totally
immersive. Not sure how steady VR headsets are these days though...

\- Are there mechanics to "level up", like an RPG? I think that type of
structure motivates a lot of people to keep playing and "grinding"

\- What about P2P? It seems hard to pull-off, but could be really cool &
entertaining on twitch!

Excited to see where you all go!

~~~
chaostheory
> Not sure how steady VR headsets are these days though...

VR headsets are pretty secure in general. The problem is comfort and the other
is sweat. Comfort will vary headset to headset but there are lots of
accessories and mods to deal with both issues.

The best thing about VR is immersion. There are also several really good
boxing/fighting games out now. One of them is good enough where a pro-boxer
uses it for training much like some pro drivers use driving sims to practice.
The only things missing are resistance and feedback. I can see Quell's straps
being used in VR. The best I've seen for feedback is wear a suit or vest of
bunch of small speakers. It's not ideal, but it's better than nothing.

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jbob2000
Yes yes yes! Super excited for this, but... Make sure you get the balance
between game and fitness program right. I tried the zombie run audio program a
few years ago and didn't like it, it was just a regular fitness class but they
would make zombie noises and yell at you to run harder _bEcAuSe ThE zOmBiEs
ArE cOmInG_.

I want to play a game that has a side-effect of a fitness program. I'm not
looking for a cut beach bod, I'm just looking to get mobile and get my heart
rate up; I want a slightly more involved Wii Sports.

If it gets too fitness-y, I'm just going to pursue a proper fitness program
and not waste my time with kitschy and campy video game facades.

~~~
rpdillon
I use Beat Saber and Pistol Whip on the Quest as my go-to lockdown workout. I
break a sweat within 5 minutes most days, and before I know it it's been a 30
minute session. I'm not sure any fitness trainer would approve, but it gives
me an excuse to get my arms and legs moving and get my heart rate up without
me ever dreading the morning workout.

~~~
douglaspaul
Beat Saber is amazing, I can't wait to try the new Linkin Park tracklist!
We've actually had some fun playing it with wristweights (and even the
Gauntlet prototypes) to see how much more of a workout we can make it. First
time you add wrist weights is a weird sensation - you go to move your hand in
the game, and it's just so much slower!

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ponker
I am a couch potato who is eating and lazing myself towards an early death...
but I've played VR games and found myself only noticing how exhausted I was
when the game ended, as opposed to exercise, where I hate what I'm doing when
I start and it only gets worse from there.

VR might be the mindhack that dramatically improves public health.

~~~
douglaspaul
Yes! Great to hear you've found something that effectively distracts you from
getting fit! For me it has always been adventure sport - I grew up having to
distract myself with skateboards, climbing, mountain bikes, surfing, etc to
keep myself healthy, because just running for the sake of it was awful!

Our take on this is that - like your experience with VR - there is a way to
make exercise fun, and therefore distract you from the work you're having to
do during it.

Out of interest do you own a VR headset currently?

~~~
ponker
I don't own one right now. Thinking about an Oculus Quest for Beat Saber or
the HP Reverb G2 for Flight Simulator. Obviously the first is better for
exercise.

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evo_9
I guess this might be an effective way to get someone into working out, but
ultimately it's just a gimmick similar to those late-night products that
generally don't do much.

I'm a bit of a fitness buff, I've been working out pretty my whole life. I
guess the things that jump out at me that are off:

1\. I wouldn't personally say 'we hate working out'. That to me is the wrong
message. Working out is rewarding and worthwhile, for me it's something I look
forward to every day. If you want to aim your messaging at people that feel
that way, then say it that way - 'If you hate working out, this is for you!'.
I'm not wild about that messaging either but at least it's not coming from the
founders which to me is a big turnoff.

2\. This is not a full body workout. There appears to be no leg resistance
and/or emphasis on leg training. I would be careful in how you present this in
your messaging.

3\. I would position this as an intro to working out and partner with someone
(if you can) like AthleanX.com which is are science based / physical trainer
designed full body workouts. The reason I would try that is because you will
likely have 2 outcomes of your users. Outcome 1 - they'll play it for a while,
feel good about themselves and stop, or they'll maybe finish the full game
experience, and stop. Outcome 2 is someone that really gets into this, sees
some transformation of their upper body and wants to move on to a 'real full
body workout' (which sorry this is not). That kind of partnership would be a
win-win for both parties because it's a bit tough to jump right into a typical
full body workout (esp. the AltheanX stuff which is really aimed at elite
athletes), and having something like this as any easy onboarding process could
be pretty cool. It would also be beneficial to have the expertise of a high-
end, well designed full body workout help guide future workouts for your
product. Right now, it really doesn't look like the movements, or punching is
all that varied.

4\. I also have a VIVE/VR setup and like others, I use that as part of my
workout; in my case it's more a post-workout workout. I don't expect it to
really develop muscles, or improve my cardio all that much, but it's a nice
way to burn some extra calories and get some cool hand-eye coordination / dex
training into your workout that is otherwise hard to come by (Space Pirate
Trainer, Pistol Whip, Beat Saber for example).

Either way good luck, I do think the future of fitness is in some form of VR,
AR + interaction/gaming.

~~~
m_tweedie
Hi there, Martin from Quell here. Thanks for sharing these insights!

To your first point, you're right—this is definitely not true for everyone. As
a keen cyclist, I can say that getting out on my bike is definitely something
I look forward to, too (less so now that London has returned to being one big
puddle, but still)! We'll look into adjusting this to be more open-minded.
You're also correct that, at present, it's not a full body workout. We're
currently expanding the range of movements you can perform in the game to make
it much more dynamic, including ducks and dodges, thereby providing a more
complete experience here.

I love the idea of partnering up with a company like AltheanX. We're
definitely keen to get people working out, and we know that our product can't
be a replacement for a full gym, so partnerships seem like a brilliant way to
provide a more complete workout.

Lastly, we too have enjoyed our experience with VR workouts. One of our early
tests was to include wrist weights with games like Beat Saber, which makes it
a much more challenging proposition. One problem that I'm sure you've
encountered too, though, was that once the action got intense, we found the
headset to be too sweaty and cumbersome for the experience to stay enjoyable
for long. That's actually one of the big reasons why we started with a more
traditional screen-based setup, but as VR lovers ourselves we're definitely
keen to move into this space as people's adoption and comfort when using this
amazing technology increases!

~~~
evo_9
You're welcome Martin, happy to help out.

I'm curious if you have thought of having something like a burpee as one of a
few different 'dodges' to move things toward a full body workout and activate
the legs more?

I'll also second the idea of selling the harness separately. I think something
like that + VR could be a big hit. I also wonder if you have considered
creating a lower body harness to add resistance to the leg?

One thing I'll say that is appealing about your approach is that it's not VR.
I find it somewhat unpractical to do a real workout in VR because current
headsets are both bulky and very warm/hot to wear. The lens tend to fog up
along with just sweating like mad, it's just not ideal. This is mostly a
problem that'll solve itself as future HMD design presumably shrink and become
less intrusive/bulky. Generally I think no headset like this is a big plus for
you guys.

~~~
lorespreafico
Absolutely! We're planning to implement movements like burpees to give users
the possibility for High Intensity full body workouts! We've chosen not to do
Vr based on user feedback: people seem to not like it. They find it
cumbersome, heavy, sweaty and annoying, and we want to provide a seamless
fitness gaming experience! We will still explore porting to VR in the future,
of course! :)

Regarding lower body workouts, we'll start by adding sensors to the legs if we
reach that specific stretch goal. We'd love to add resistance too, if it's
feasible! :)

Thank you for your input!

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chris_st
Looks good, good luck with it!

I know for me I'd get pretty bored with doing just one thing (here, boxing,
Peloton bike riding, etc.), even if the online "experience" varies things.

Also, while it's good for burning calories, it's just hitting (har!) one set
of muscles. I'm doing a broad range of exercises through a streaming video
service, including various weights/resistance training, and a yoga/tai-
chi/pilates class that's really improved my balance.

So, for me, variety is something to shoot for.

Congratulations on the successful kickstarter!

~~~
douglaspaul
Thanks! After the past few months with our heads down it's been so great to
share what we've been doing with the world!

Variety is absolutely something to shoot for. Personally I've always been big
on 'adventure' sports - I find that the distraction from the fact I'm working
out allows me to have fun, and still stay (reasonably) fit! Not so easy to do
when I'm back around home though - all these activities require time away...so
building Quell allows for a more exciting workout whilst staying indoors
(something that became a lot more relevant this year!)

One thing to note is that whilst the Gauntlet delivers resistance to upper-
body motions, boxing is very much a full body workout. We're exploring a few
different ways to maximise the core and lower-body elements of this within the
game, but this is no case of skipping leg day!

Which streaming video service are you using? Any key parts of it that you
think make it stand out against everything else you've tried?

~~~
chris_st
If you're still reading comments :-) I remembered a few other things Les Mills
does that are great.

They have a lot of training videos, several for each class of exercise they
do. They're in-depth, and really show you the form.

They add tips to the actual work-outs, so you're constantly reminded of good
form.

They have alternatives to most of the exercises, so you can modify them if you
have (e.g.) knee problems, or aren't up to full push-ups, etc.

They do good cool-down routines at the end of most videos, and have a number
of cool-down-only videos you can watch for the others. Not everyone thinks
highly of post work-out cool-down/stretching, but a lot of the people who
seriously study exercise recommend it.

~~~
douglaspaul
Ah a Les Mills fan! I have several friends who love the training too, although
I haven't heard much about the on-demand stuff until now. Thanks for sharing
it!

How has the community element of LM translated to their app? Do you still have
ways of engaging or competing?

~~~
chris_st
As far as I know, there's no competing in the app; can't say I've explored
every crevice but I haven't seen it.

There is a Facebook group (which I haven't joined) which is, I gather, more
supportive than competitive. They do videos every once in a while where they
get their trainers/directors to either discuss techniques or answer Q&A. It's
support-oriented.

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mkoubaa
hi! I'm an amateur martial artist and this looks cool! a lot of the training
we do is for instance a single kick 100 times and getting the form right. it'd
be a shame if a total beginner put on the wearable and punched with awful
form. maybe you can make correct punches cause more damage(like a crit) so
that players can get instant feedback of their form. Mike Tyson for example
should be able to knock out a baddie in half as many hits as me. Imho it's
counterproductive to learn the wrong way and it's really really hard to
unlearn.

another option is skills drilling like minigames for players who want to level
up without necessarily advancing in the game.

During covid quarantine I haven't been able to train with my teacher and I
really miss it.

~~~
m_tweedie
Hi, Martin from Quell here. Glad you like the sound of Quell, and totally
agree that coaching on proper form is going to be key. We absolutely plan to
make it so that, to succeed in the game, you need to be hitting hard, fast—and
with good technique. We'll be coaching our players by analysing their form and
giving them clear guidance on how to improve, as well as providing training
throughout to make sure that they stay on point. Love the idea of using
minigames to keep reinforcing this!

------
jfim
Backed it, since it looks pretty fun.

Out of curiosity, are there plans to have it track body motion (eg. via IMUs
in the chest strap part)? One of the most enjoyable arcade light gun
experiences is "Police 911 2", which is a light gun game that tracks the
users' body so that they can take cover. I'd guess it would be fun if one can
dodge attacks by ducking/leaning.

~~~
m_tweedie
Thank you so much! As we continue to expand the move set we are absolutely
working on full body movement, including ducks and dodges. We want to keep our
players moving!

------
IOT_Apprentice
Saw a similar Product, but with direct impact training. A partnership with
[https://joinfightcamp.com/](https://joinfightcamp.com/) might be a great
thing, especially, if you added sensor pads for the feet to record leg kicks.

With your product, I'm reminded of Wii Boxing.

~~~
douglaspaul
Great comment, thanks for the suggestion. Fightcamp are actually another
former YC company - they started as Hykso punch trackers before pivoting to
Fightcamp more recently. They are approaching the more conventional fitness
market - like Peloton but with boxing, and their prices and model reflect
this.

With Quell we're more focused on the immersive gamification - using combat
fitness alongside a compelling story to engage users who find existing fitness
gamification falls short of what they need to motivate themselves.

We would love to add sensor pads for kicks - Check out our stretch goal for it
on the Kickstarter page!

------
Guest19023892
Nice work on the product and video. It looks fun and it was easy to see what
you're trying to accomplish.

That being said, with a $200 price tag and $10/mo subscription, why would
someone invest in this instead of VR? Comparatively, VR seems to have a lot
more versatility with regards to tracking and the types of activities people
can enjoy, one of which is fitness related games.

With Quell, a person is limited to a single game, with one type of motion. I
can't help but think this feels similar to someone selling a standalone VR
system that could only play Beat Saber, and that doesn't seem like a very good
value proposition.

~~~
m_tweedie
Thanks for the kind words about the product. Totally understand the
reservations about the subscription service. The value add here is that by
subscribing, you gain access to a steady stream of new areas, enemies and
modes that will keep Quell exciting. The base game will still have a lot to
keep coming back to, but the subscription will help us run the development of
this new content so that the experience stays fresh. We'll also be opening up
the hardware to other developers, including those in VR, since we know that
broadening the ecosystem can only help ensure people have a reason to keep
using Quell long-term.

------
andybak
So not the existing, moderately popular VR game called Quell?

[https://store.steampowered.com/app/534230/Quell_4D/](https://store.steampowered.com/app/534230/Quell_4D/)

~~~
m_tweedie
Hi, this is Martin from Quell—looks like fun! We realised that Quell is not
necessarily a unique name, but felt that it captured the spirit of what we
were doing too well to pass up on. A little competition never hurt, right?

~~~
klmadfejno
> A little competition never hurt, right?

Optimism is fine, but realistically, yes, competition over a name for another
video game can definitely hurt you.

~~~
andybak
It's also slightly disrespectful to your peers.

------
underyx
How do you think this compares to Nintendo's Ring Fit Adventure?

~~~
douglaspaul
We actually love Ring Fit! Have you tried it?

We managed to get one of the first copies available after it had sold out
through the lockdown, and have put in a good few hours over our lunchbreaks to
benchmark against it. In our opinion Nintendo has done a really good job, and
we even managed to break a sweat playing it.

That said, Ring Fit Adventure is limited to Switch users, and the game itself
was not compelling enough to build a real fitness routine around (if Peloton
and Zwift are too far in one direction, then RFA is too far in the opposite).
It's taught us a lot about how important certain aspects from the game design
will be as we continue building the Quell game world though...and anything
that is encouraging people to look after their health gets a big thumbs up
from us.

~~~
tgb
I've enjoyed Ring Fit Adventure but it has some downsides I've noticed. Just
so you have another fitness-game-user's perspective:

\- Gamification does sometimes interfere with the workouts and/or workout
enjoyability. The tasks that were gameplay-optimal were often either tediously
easy or exhaustingly targeting the same muscles repeatedly.

\- Not enough cardio opportunities in the game, IMO. You get interrupted from
the jogging sections repeatedly. Only a couple of the skill moves targeted
cardio at all really.

\- Lots of downtime and fiddling with menus and only semi-skippable
instructions/tutorial videos of things you've done before. Enemy animations
even for non-actions. Squeezing one's smoothies while dorky music plays. A
half-hour workout took more like 50 minutes.

\- Difficulty of exercises not reflected in their impact. Partly due to the
fact that each person finds different exercises difficult and the game had no
way of accounting for that.

\- Sweat! I sweat a lot during any workout and I felt gross wearing the leg-
strap repeatedly and the non-washable ring grips. I can guarantee I'd make the
Quell gear stink in a few months max and would need a cheap way to wash them
and replace padding that wears out.

The rhythm game section they added in a more recent update is super fun,
though. I wish it were incorporated into the main game. Overall, I like RFA
and have benefited from adding it sporadically into my exercise routines. I
could definitely be in the market for Quell.

~~~
douglaspaul
This feedback is great, thank you so much for sharing!

I agree about the rhythm section and some of the menu downtime. As for the
sweating, any game in the fitness space needs to recognise this! We're making
sure the Gauntlet can be washed just like any fitness kit should be for this
exact reason!

------
gverrilla
I like the idea, but the wearable doesn't appeal to me. You say it is like a
game, but it really feels like this product is pushing serious fitness work.
The problem with that is that people that are serious into fitness go to the
gym. Is it even safe to wear those bands for the arms? I don't like the theme
of the game too - seems disconnected from target userbase. I want to fight
other players, not silly robots.

~~~
douglaspaul
Thanks for the feedback, it's really helpful for us to hear you raise these
points. The workouts are designed to meet your personal fitness level - the
resistance bands can be swapped out easily, and different parts of the game
focus on strength and cardio, meaning you can set the workouts to the goals
you're chasing.

As for the story - you say you want to fight other players - what does that
game look like to you? We're always interested in these ideas for future game
titles we can bring into the platform. If you'd like to join our Discord
channel I'd be happy to chat about this further in there.

~~~
gverrilla
If this was purely a game and not a fitness gadget I would be interested. I'd
be really curious if it was a good boxing game + this stuff to recognize
movement from your hand (not these bands though). Would be cheaper too. But
anyhow punching big robots/creatures just seems wrong - they seem to be heavy
and my hand would just hurt lol. Also, when you use the word gamification it
makes it crystal clear your game design knowledge and intentions are very
limited. Don't take me wrong, I'm just being plain honest. Games > fitness,
and this would make an awesome game. Particularly if it was competitive
multiplayer :D (boxing and coop also doesn't seem right to me)

------
chrisweekly
As if we nerds didn't already have enough advantages over the general
population. /jk

srsly this is a great idea and a great price point; I'd buy it

~~~
douglaspaul
Thanks, great to hear you like it!

------
0majors
This is genius, congrats on launching!

In your position I would look to consider 2 things:

1) Add leg straps for kicks! That's a killer ab exercise and would work great
with your concept. 2) Let other devs make use of the hardware asap! Your
strenght is clearly in the hardware. There are tons of game developers who
could create incredible games with this. How great would be UFC game with
this?

Good luck!

~~~
m_tweedie
Thanks for your reply! We are definitely exploring full-body exercises and
totally agree that leg straps would make this even more effective. To your
second point—we absolutely intend to open our hardware up to 3rd party
applications/developers in the future, as we know that broadening the types of
experience is key to longevity with a system like this

------
aphextron
Do you have any plans to allow 3rd party development for the hardware? From my
experience with VR, this looks like it could be really fun but get old quickly
without some variety.

Also, how are you doing the tracking? I don't see any external sensors
mentioned, is it just IMU based? Because anything less than perfect sub
millimeter motion tracking has become unacceptable these days.

~~~
m_tweedie
Hi, Martin from Quell here. We're definitely keen to open up the platform to
3rd-party developers, as well as continuing to develop the core game to keep
the product engaging over time.

We are indeed using IMUs to track the player's movements, and agree that high-
accuracy motion tracking is one of the keys to making the experience really
compelling and immersive. It's been a blast so far to feel the experience
improve with each iteration of the game and software!

------
mothsonasloth
No motion tracker for legs

 _cries in Muay Thai_

~~~
douglaspaul
Check out our stretch goals - if we can get past $2m by 27th September then
kickboxing mode is coming for you ;)

~~~
Sebb767
Can you post a link to those? Maybe it's me, but I cant find them on the
kickstarter page.

~~~
lorespreafico
Hey! There's no way to share a direct link to a section of the KS page
unfortunatey, but it's section 12, right after the "Reward tiers" :)

------
stepsilva
This is really great guys keep going ! It is amazing to see IDE fellows (I'm
IDE alumni) working on something that can help many people during these lock-
down times.

In terms of feedback for me it would be great to have group challenges or
teams of people joining in for a workout.

------
worldmerge
This is really cool! And congratulations on hitting your Kickstarter goal!
This reminds me a bit of Wii boxing game that I liked, I really like this
product. Your product also might have a market in fitness classes (once those
reopen in the future). Would it be possible in the future to virtually box
another person adding pvp to the product?

~~~
m_tweedie
Hi, Martin from Quell here. Thanks for the kind words! Our own experiences
with Wii Boxing have definitely been a touchstone for us; although we're
developing a game with a completely different setting and style, I can say
that I personally really enjoyed Wii Boxing for how it let you just pick it up
and fight with your friends. For this reason, we're definitely working on a
PvP mode!

We'd also love to see this used in gyms and fitness classes, and have been
gathering insights from local gyms around London on how best to do this.
Despite dealing with their own difficulties as a result of Covid-19, they
provided some great insights that helped us to shape the product into
something that we feel is compelling and effective, even to committed fitness
folk.

------
ponker
Why is a YC company, perhaps the kind of company with the most access to
capital, on Kickstarter? I get that it's free capital but it's a terrible
look. I will wait until you have something to ship, or if YC underwrites you
and says that they will refund Kickstarters if you fail to deliver.

~~~
erohead
Kickstarter is not the same as venture capital (and is certainly not 'free
capital'). It's validation that actual customers are interested in the product
and want to buy/use it. There are certainly risks associated with backing a
project as a customer, but presumably the folks backing this campaign feel
like the benefit is worth the risk.

~~~
ponker
It absolutely is free capital, in the same way that a 0% interest bank loan
would be free capital. You don't have to give any interest, any equity, or any
collateral in case of failure. How much freer does capital get?

~~~
tomhoward
Reputation has a value, and companies/founders who fail to deliver on a
crowdfunding campaign incur a huge reputational cost.

Investors are far more willing to support founders after an earlier failure
than crowdfunding customers are after an unfulfilled campaign.

------
crucio
It's a cool idea but the combat looks very slow paced and boring from the
kickstarter video.

If you have some games which require faster reactions and speed of punching
then it could become more interesting.

Are you planning to allow modding of the games?

What about having bands in other positions to enable using the biceps and
shoulders?

~~~
lspreafico
Hi Crucio! Lorenzo from Quell here.

We're improving the gameplay every day, and with Kickstarter funding we'll be
able to really bring it to the next level. We absolutely think it's key to
have fast reaction times :)

We're really interesting in opening the platform up to developers, including
for modding!

Regarding the resistance bands: we've tried a wide range of different
positions for the bands, and we're happy to say that the current design
provides really effective muscle training. But I totally see your point, and
we'll be constantly looking to improve our Gauntlet Wearable with even more
resistance!

Thank you for your feedback :)

------
adamhe
This looks like fun, backed it. There is a lot of difficult pieces that have
to come together for this to work though, and it is not just the hardware, if
the game itself isn't good enough then the whole thing falls apart. I really
enjoyed playing Beatsabre on Oculus.

~~~
m_tweedie
Hi! Thanks so much for the support. We love Beat Sabre as well—in fact, one of
our early tests was to strap weights to our wrists and try to play the game
with the added resistance. It was a fun experiment, and frankly pretty hard
work!

Also agree that there's quite a few moving parts to this project. We're
looking forward to sharing more details of how the game will provide an
exciting and varied experience!

------
grawprog
So....it's like an over priced version of the wii version Punchout with a
built in heart monitor?

Why would i get this instead of just buying a used wii or a vr system?

No offense, i thought the Peloton was stupid too and their ads were horrible.
I was so happy when i stopped getting ads for that thing.

~~~
spanhandler
I found Wii Sports gave me _nasty_ RSI in a way I'd never experienced before
if I tried to play it "seriously" for any length of time. All that vigorous
motion but with no weight or resistance was really, really bad. It also
allowed a much faster pace of action than the real sports it mimicked, which
probably didn't help—no stopping to fetch the ball or wait for people to get
into position in tennis or baseball, for instance.

Waggling the controller with one's wrist was more effective in game and didn't
hurt after 15-20 minutes like playing "for real" did. It also wasn't really
any more fun than playing with a normal controller—so, fun, but nothing
special.

I'd expect to hurt myself trying to get a workout with something like this,
based on that experience.

~~~
m_tweedie
Hi, Martin from Quell here. As someone who shares this exact experience, it's
something we have been thinking about from day one when building Quell. If we
make something that causes injury or can easily be "tricked" into thinking
that the player has done something they haven't, we have failed in our core
goal of making a fun, accessible workout that can be enjoyed at all fitness
levels.

We're working in consultation with boxers and boxing trainers to ensure that
the game teaches users proper form. To break through your enemies defences and
succeed in the game, you'll need to perform precise, accurate strikes with
good technique. In addition, our wearable prevents you from hyper-extending
when throwing straight shots, which can otherwise cause injury.

------
bhaprayan
This is amazing! Really excited to see where this goes, good luck :)

~~~
douglaspaul
Thank you!

------
sparrish
The "Gauntlet" looks like it would be too chafing. I don't want to work out
only to have rashes and bruises in my armpits and wrists.

~~~
lspreafico
Hey! Lorenzo from Quell here. It's super important to us that that never
happens. We've tested the Gauntlet with a lot of users, with different body
types, and have never had any problems like chafing. We're keen on maintaing
that through high quality design and materials.

Thank you for your input!

------
novok
It turns me off that there is a subscription TBH when it doesn't really seem
like a subscription worthy thing, especially at $10/month

~~~
m_tweedie
Hi! Can understand the reservations about the subscription service. The base
Quell game is free for life. Our subscription service provides access to a
steady stream of new areas, enemies and modes that will keep Quell exciting.
The base game will still have a lot to keep coming back to, but the
subscription will help us run the development of this new content so that the
experience stays fresh for longer. We'll also be opening up the hardware to
other developers, including those in VR, since we know that broadening the
ecosystem can only help ensure people have a reason to keep using Quell long-
term.

------
ralls_ebfe
Will Linux be supported on PC? This looks really interesting to me, as I am
getting lazy without anyone to fight during the pandemic.

------
xwdv
Why has no one just created a VR punching bag tracker that gets tracked in
physical space, with trackable VR punching gloves?

~~~
douglaspaul
Good question. From our research into this possible direction early in Quell's
journey, we deduced the risk with existing VR tech was unappetising. If the
game lags by a few hundreds of a second, you could punch when the bag is in a
slightly different position to your VR perception of it...which could lead to
broken bones, sprains and torn ligaments. It will absolutely happen when the
tech catches up!

------
chaostheory
Any chance for releasing the straps on their own without the quell platform? I
would be interested in using them with VR.

~~~
m_tweedie
Hi there! Martin from Quell here. At this time, we don't currently have a
separate release of the wearable planned. Though we're releasing it only as
part of the full Quell system at the moment, we love VR and are keen to move
into this space as well. Offering the harness as a standalone is definitely
one option we've considered, so it's great to hear that people are interested
in this! We're also exploring releasing a VR port of the game down the line.

------
chansiky
This looks awesome. I hope you all succeed.

~~~
m_tweedie
Martin from Quell here—thank you so much for the kind words!

------
IOT_Apprentice
No low line or roundhouse kicks?

~~~
m_tweedie
Hi there! We'd love to include kicks as well, though we've had to put it as a
stretch goal due to the additional complexity it presents for development at
this stage. Expanding the range of movements is definitely in our roadmap
either way :D

------
Nightshaxx
That's pretty dope! Any plans for adding VR at some point?

~~~
andybak
I assumed VR when I read "immersive". Is that just me?

~~~
douglaspaul
Can see where you're coming from - VR's key USP is often touted as'immersion'.

For us, it's about building something that is exciting enough to distract you
from the workout you're doing - the gaming takes over from the awareness of
your exercise in your mind. There are a number of ways to do this, some would
include VR. For now we've opted against it as our users found VR fitness too
sweaty and uncomfortable in its present form.

Where do you stand on VR? Do you have any of the headsets currently?

~~~
andybak
I'm a big fan of VR in general (but looking forward to improvements in
comfort).

How sweaty you find it is surely a function of your local climate and
availability of air-con. I wouldn't play Beat Saber in the summer without good
air flow but then I'm in the UK where air-con is fairly rare in the home.

But I can happily play for 45-60 minutes when it's not super hot in the house.

------
PouyaQP
Looks cool indeed. I guess I need it more in office hours, lol

~~~
m_tweedie
Hey there, Martin from Quell here. Thanks for giving us a look. Glad you like
the sound of Quell! And if I understand your last point correctly, I can say
that as it continues to develop, it's becoming more and more of a cathartic
way to let off some steam...

------
malloreon
No resistance for the lower body?

Can’t skip leg day.

~~~
douglaspaul
Never skip leg day!

We looked into leg resistance bands early on in the design stage, and user
tests led us away from them. In reality, you can get plenty of resistance for
the lower body from gravity and the right exercises - we're working on some
different game dynamics to introduce things like squats and lunges.

------
klmadfejno
I think this is a tough concept. It looks kind of fun, but I don't think I'd
believe people will pay $200 up front and then $120/year to play this game. My
big concern is that you're not clear on where this falls between an exercise
service and a fun video game.

* Multiplayer boxing is fun, but it's not going to be that much different than wii boxing or whatever VR equivalents are out there now. It's definitely not a noteworthy exercise tool.

* peloton sells a lifestyle w/ live classes. You're selling a video game. I think it's misleading yourselves to think about this as a subscription product because I don't think you'll be able to do much in the way of interesting content over time. You're much closer to ring fit adventure. Your main competitors, if released right now would be Fitness Boxing on the Switch and BoxVR. I don't know these games, but they turned up on a quick google. Reading through some of the other comments of people who are optimistic about this concept, they don't seem to know about these titles either, which is probably cause for concern.

* Making it a fantasy story based game is fun... but now you're locking in your target market to people who like those kinds of things and decisively not doing an "exercise" or "hardcore" aesthetic. I'm concerned that's not a big overlap with people who want to pay for an exercise service. Ring Fit adventure is kind of close to this and it sold 4 million units, so its not a BAD decision, but its a stark contrast to all of the value props that something like peloton pushes

* you say gesture recognition. I think a lot of people are expecting hand tracking and will be disappointed. I'm concerned you added spells because there's just not enough variety on the punches.

* doesn't look like you have any people with game dev experience on the team.

* kickboxing is a fun stretch goal but realistically I see nothing but difficulty in implementing that.

* I think it will be difficult to make a boxing game that people want to play every day for a long time. You said hundreds of enemies in your video. I think that's highly unlikely to happen. That's a huge huge challenge for any game dev shop. Judging from the clips, I don't think you really know how the game works. That is, how the player chooses what actions to take, and what creates the difficulty. Off the top of my head, the ways you can make a boxing game are puzzles / patterns (punch out), rhythm, ring fit-just-do-reps-and-follow-prompts style, and then something dynamic like wii boxing. Which of those can you choose and make a game that is compelling enough to play every day? Wii boxing sounds enticing but its really quite difficult to make a substantial game out of this. BoxVR and Fitness Boxing are rhythm games from the look of it.

