
Google Is Close to Buying HTC Assets to Bolster Hardware - mcone
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-20/google-is-said-close-to-buying-htc-assets-to-bolster-hardware
======
post_break
Remember when google bought Motorola and we thought the moto x line was going
to become the new nexus? And then they sold to lenovo and it's kind of been
down hill in terms of software updates. Let's see what google extracts out of
HTC and then sells to someone else with this company.

~~~
notatoad
The rumour at the time was that Google fully intended to enter the hardware
business. they wanted to keep Motorola forever and didn't just buy them for
patents, but Samsung threw a hissy fit and threatened to drop android entirely
if Google was going to compete with them directly. Moto was sold as part of a
deal with samsung (samsung intro'd a tablet with a very microsoft-y UI shortly
before google sold motorola, and after the sale the software was re-done to be
much closer to stock android)

Presumably, with the Pixel line going head-to-head with the Galaxy S last year
the situation has changed enough that Google no longer fears that Samsung will
ditch Android. It's also worth noting that the rumour here is that Google will
buy specific manufacturing and hardware assets from HTC, but _will not_ buy
the brand. So it's less of a "buying the company and keeping the parts they
want" situation, and more of a "buy only the parts they want" situation.

~~~
fossuser
I wish Google had just told Samsung they didn't care if they dropped Android
back then - not sure what other OS Samsung would have switched to, but if
Touchwiz is any indication it probably wouldn't have been very good.

Samsung's hardware today seems better, but for a long time the galaxy phones
were cheap plastic builds with unwanted software customization on top. The few
Motorola phones that came out during the Google ownership were nice.

If Google had built their own hardware back then (or had even gotten Nokia) I
would probably have stayed on Android. For a long time starting around iPhone
5 the Apple hardware was a lot better (prior to that Apple lacked turn by turn
navigation and LTE). The Nexus One was nice, but the S wasn't great and the
Galaxy Nexus was terrible enough to switch.

Now Apple seems to be winning in security and new hardware features and
everything else is fairly comparable.

~~~
s73ver_
Regardless of how bad Samsung's alternative would have been (probably Tizen,
but possibly Windows Phone), it would still look incredibly bad for Android
and Google for the news of the top Android OEM getting out of the Android
space.

~~~
e40
There is no way on earth Samsung would have dropped android. Google lost this
game of chicken, that's for sure.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
The entire Tizen project as well as continued efforts in Google competitors
like Bixby is Samsung hedging their bets to leave. Samsung is probably the
only Android OEM who _could_ leave without going out of business: People would
buy the next Galaxy no matter what it ran, and Samsung has the clout to push
all the major app developers to push to their own store.

~~~
ksenzee
Some people would buy the next Galaxy. Plenty of people wouldn't, though, as
soon as the helpful employee at the T-Mobile store warned them they couldn't
reinstall their old apps on the new phone. It would be a really risky move. I
imagine they'd have done it already if it weren't so likely to fail.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Bear in mind, Tizen supports Android apps. Samsung would have a lot of work to
do here, but would have the pull to get the top X apps on their market, even
if it took paying devs to list them. Then just add a migration tool like
Google has on their Pixel devices that plugs into their old phone and
downloads all of the same apps on their new phone (and probably would report
back to Samsung which apps they were unable to do so with so they know who to
encourage), and voila.

I'm sure there'd be _some_ loss, but Samsung would likely come out doing fine.
Even if they lost some market share, their profits would likely go up in the
end, since they'd be the ones pulling the app market cuts and such.

~~~
tacomonstrous
>Then just add a migration tool like Google has on their Pixel devices that
plugs into their old phone and downloads all of the same apps on their new
phone

And be pleasantly surprised when none of their Google apps transfer over? Good
luck with that.

~~~
kuschku
Google Apps are important in some markets, but far less so in other markets.

Samsung might lose a percentage of the SV customerbase, but everyone who’s not
relying on Google accounts wouldn’t really notice.

------
cromwellian
When Google bought Motorola, Android was under serious assault from patent
trolling, and the move looked to most people to be mainly defensive to quickly
build up a defensive warchest. It's my impression that Google never intended
to become a serious competitor in the handset market, perhaps for fear of
stepping on the toes of its partners like Samsung, so it was content to let
Motorola operate as an independent entity as if Google were a holding company.

This is just my personal opinion with no more knowledge than anyone else, but
this HTC acquisition looks different than Motorola. It has the hallmarks of an
acqui-hire, and which implies Google may no longer be content to just sit by
as a cornucopia of OEMs ship commodity HW using off the shelf stuff and small
tweaks, as that's never going to pull the market forward like Apple can do
with vertical integration.

~~~
arkitaip
Google already has serious problems with its culture that prevents it from
consistently shipping consumer products. Adding HTC's overhead and shrinking
market share is adding more fuel to the fire.

If Andy Rubin can ship a mobile phone in just two years with ~100 employees,
maybe Google could take a similar approach by funding a totally independent
startup that's not burden by its culture yet has access to all of Google's
resources.

~~~
cromwellian
Did Essential actually build their phone, or did they simply contract an OEM
to do it? Looks like LG might be the true maker of this device:
[http://phandroid.com/2017/05/30/essential-phone-
manufacturer...](http://phandroid.com/2017/05/30/essential-phone-manufacturer-
lg/)

~~~
ac29
According to the FCC test report [0], the manufacturer is "FIH Mobile
Limited", which Google says is owned by Foxconn.

[0] [https://fccid.io/2ALBB-A11/Test-Report/Test-
Report-3524146.p...](https://fccid.io/2ALBB-A11/Test-Report/Test-
Report-3524146.pdf)

~~~
tdeck
It seems pretty easy these days to get an OEM phone made. Even Pepsi
commissioned their own smartphone:

[http://m.gadgets.ndtv.com/pepsi-
phone-p1-3109](http://m.gadgets.ndtv.com/pepsi-phone-p1-3109)

~~~
microtherion
Even teenagers are commissioning their own smartphone:
[http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/09/05/frank-isnt-just-
phon...](http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/09/05/frank-isnt-just-phone-phony/)

------
gorbachev
I think this is a good deal for nobody but those HTC engineers Google is going
to hire, at least short term.

The $330M price is so low none of the HTC investors are going to make any
money on it. HTC's mobile phone business has been unprofitable for years and
Google won't make any money on it either.

Who knows maybe Google is planning on using the HTC business unit as a sort of
an R&D lab for Android hardware, with no real plan on making it a
traditionally profitable business.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
Considering the recent Pixels were made by HTC, I think Google just wants to
cut out the middle man and have its own phone hardware business for the Pixel.
This allows them to compete with Apple by having an official flagship and by
being able to produce this flagship without the added cost of another
company's profits and the whims of cellphone OEMs too focused on their own
branded products, and all the inefficiencies that brings.

HTC has everything Google needs for an in-house Pixel from soup to nuts and
they're hurting for money. Its a happy coincidence HTC is collapsing right
when Google is getting serious about launching its own branded flagship
phones.

I also suspect aggressive moves like this mean that Samsung is probably going
to pull the trigger on a full Tizen move and eventually stop producing android
phones. The Pixel is aimed right at Galaxy buyers. I'm skeptical this is just
a coincidence. The agreement that Nexus was kinda, sorta a developer's phone
and will always be hobbled by mid-range camera, battery, and storage seems to
have ended with the Pixel line.

I just received a Pixel after my 6P died and its about the closest to iPhone
quality I've seen on an Android device. Its clearly a serious attempt by
Google to have a proper branded flagship.

~~~
Apocryphon
As much as it's entertaining to see Samsung try to prop up Tizen as a
deterrent against Google, it hardly seems ready for mass adoption.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
It likely isn't a top priority for Samsung, so resources on it could likely be
better. I presume if Samsung decided to actually pull the trigger, they'd
release one last Android phone while _massively_ ramping up the scale of their
Tizen division to get it ready to ship.

------
AdmiralAsshat
This would have been great if Google had bought HTC about three years ago,
back when it was making the HTC One M7. The company was struggling then, but
still had plenty of prestige.

The problem now is that HTC has been sinking for so long that most of its
famous engineers and personnel have long since jumped ship, so I'm not even
sure Google will get much out of this acqui-hire. I would _assume_ that none
of this involves the Vive, as that seems too profitable right now for HTC to
sell.

Don't get me wrong, if we got another HTC Google Play Edition phone using an
HTC 10 successor (really don't like the U11, go back to the HTC One design
template, please), that would be awesome. But I'm not holding my breath.

~~~
on_and_off
Honest question : Is the Vive really profitable ?

It seems to me that this current generation of VR is a niche that lacks any
killer app and that any tangible improvement is very incertain

~~~
SolarNet
Yea, but they can charge any amount of money for it. The market is so small,
that they can charge arbitrary profit for the best headset in the market.

They also make all the peripheral and headset prerequisties and components, so
when people compete on new peripherals or headsets, they still win.

------
georgeburdell
Google is also poaching quite a few Apple hardware engineers if my group of
acquaintances is any evidence. I wonder if they're going full on into hardware
production with tight integration like on the iPhone?

~~~
ehsankia
I'm not sure what "going full on" means, but to me it seems like they already
have with the Pixel and soon Pixel 2. But yes, it seems like they are still
ramping up higher.

------
tacomonstrous
What's interesting about this is that HTC has a 10 year licensing deal with
Apple that expires in 2022 [1]

Wonder if that deal came with a poison pill. I doubt Apple wants to be a
counterparty to a mobile licensing deal with Google at this point.

[1] [https://www.engadget.com/2012/11/10/apple-htc-patent-
settlem...](https://www.engadget.com/2012/11/10/apple-htc-patent-
settlement-10-year-license/)

~~~
toyg
Neither Apple nor Google want to get into a patent war, but neither want to be
unprepared for one either. This is just another bit of stockpiling.

------
mc42
What leaves me curious is what's to happen of the Vive hardware line that
Valve sells made by HTC.

~~~
aphextron
I don't think it really matters. All of the meaningful technology behind Vive
(Lighthouse sensors, SteamVR, and the associated IMU firmware) is all
developed and licensed to pretty much anyone who wants it by Valve. In the end
Vive will be the VR equivalent of the first Android phone. A breakthrough
piece of tech which led the way for an entire ecosystem of products to
develop, but forgotten and obsolesced in it's own right.

~~~
baby
I really hope you're wrong as it is currently the best VR headset on the
market and the most promising one as well.

~~~
Impossible
LG is working on a SteamVR headset that uses Lighthouse and seems to be
roughly on par, if not better than Vive.
[https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/2/14769624/lg-valve-vr-
heads...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/2/14769624/lg-valve-vr-headset-
development-kit-hands-on-gdc-2017).

I think OPs point was, even if HTC stops manufacturing Vive there will be Vive
quality or better headsets that use Lighthouse tracking, which along with the
upcoming knuckle controllers and vive trackers are the real competitive
advantage Vive has over Rift or Microsoft MR headsets in PC VR.

------
gigatexal
Makes sense. Own the hardware and the software and create a seamless
experience. It's what Apple has been doing for years. Hopefully, they can pull
that off if that's indeed the aim: I might consider a Google/HTC device if
they pull it off and heck it might be running Fuschia and not android and
that'd be compelling to me.

~~~
supernintendo
It's a shame Google doesn't care about its users and actually goes out of its
way to inconvenience and blame customers who experience issues with their
products. Sorry but I can get my iPhone repaired or replaced in any major city
on short notice and it's generally a pleasant experience. Good luck getting
Google to even take manufacturing defects seriously [1]. Stop giving this
company your money.

[1] [https://9to5google.com/2016/12/09/google-pixel-screen-
peelin...](https://9to5google.com/2016/12/09/google-pixel-screen-peeling-
support/)

~~~
colept
Reminds me of the Nexus One when the power buttons failed left and right -
both Google and HTC left many customers with expensive paperweights.

------
ihsw2
My biggest complaints about the Pixel line is are price and availability --
are these going to be addressed, or will Pixel phones continue to be
overpriced and out of stock?

It seems to me that Google are intentionally sabotaging the success of their
Pixel phone lineup. I would hate for the Nexus 6P to be my last Google phone.

~~~
davidy123
I'm not convinced Google is really trying to make their hardware competitive.
They are just using it to up the Android game and focus on specific features
they may feel other manufacturers aren't doing a great job with or not
highlighting, which is currently their assistant, as well as having a more
intimate connection to some enthusiasts. Google's goal is to get many devices
dependant on their ecosystem. Directly competing with other companies that use
Android would not work in their interest. I hope I'm wrong though, Google
directly backing a competitive and available consumer device could really put
smartphones into a better territory of cost and support. Currently Samsung is
quite halfhearted; while I think their hardware is great their support is more
like the support one gets from a fridge than such an important and personal
information device, it just doesn't compare to Apple's support.

------
kpwags
Until Google is willing to truly support their Pixel/Nexus devices for more
than 2 years, I'm not sure what difference this will really make. Not that
Samsung and others are all that great, but I guess I had hope that Google
might do more with their branded phones.

------
dragon_greens
Mistakes are meant to be repeated. /s

Still, an open question is why would they feel the need to buy an exisiting
company? Couldnt they simply recreate a hardware company from scratch with
their resources? HTC is not exactly a world leader or some unique innovator
here.

~~~
jaxondu
My bet is Google is also buying HTC VR/AR asset so that they can release an AR
hardware before Apple’s AR Glass next year.

~~~
hbosch
HTC has zero AR property. Vive is VR exclusively, tethered to a PC, and the
tech is from Valve. HTC may have some research but it's either very secretive
or not worth bidding for - which scenario is more likely?

~~~
cma
They've already announced a standalone Vive in partnership with Google:

[https://www.vive.com/us/product/standalone/](https://www.vive.com/us/product/standalone/)

They haven't sold it as anything but VR for now, but it could have AR
capabilities. (And HTC has some sort of AR apps like Vive Paper for the
standalone Vive, it has a camera).

------
samstave
Serious question:

I have an iPhone 6+ -- and it is 90% great. (some UX choices suck on a bigger
device, I cant hit certain buttons when one-handing the device)

I really like the essential....

I hear good things about the Pixels.

I would only up to the iPhone X for water resistence...

They are all nearly $1K

(I worked in Intel's game developer relations lab in the 90s when they were
trying to prove that a <$1k computer was even possible (Celeron's with
SIMD)...

Now its like a phreaking phone is going to be hitting/pushing the ~$1K
mark....

Should I get a new phone, and if so, of those three, which would be best?

~~~
strictnein
Why not the iPhone 8? Of course, an iPhone 8 Plus with 256GB of memory is
right up near $1k as well.

I'm switching back from a Samsung Galaxy S8, which like the iPhone X has an
OLED screen and doesn't feature a home button (Samsung is making the iPhone
X's screen). Just too much time waiting for it to recognize me. It wasn't a
lot, but enough to be annoying.

~~~
matthewrudy
I have the S8, and although the rear fingerprint sensor is less convenient
than the front, I haven't even considered using the face or iris unlock.

Just stick your finger round the back and you'll be happy.

------
thinbeige
> Google has tried to buy its way into hardware twice before, albeit more
> expensively.

Google bought Danger which got Android. Motorola was a failure yes. So not
twice but once.

~~~
danans
Incorrect. Microsoft bought Danger and it gave rise to their Kin phone effort.
Andy Rubin did start Danger, but he left before the Microsoft acquisition to
start Android, which is what Google bought.

------
Jayakumark
They should instead buy a SoC company like mediatek and build own SoC
competing apple AX series and Qualcomm 800 series with additional processing
engine like neural engine etc.. also they should buy imagination technologies
previous GPU technology supplier for apple which is already up for sale

This could greatly enhance android and they can start selling SoC along with
software. If not they are dependent on Qualcomm to catch up with apple.

~~~
bitmapbrother
Or they could do what Apple does and design their SoC's and send off the
designs to TSMC for fabrication. Google has already poached Apple's lead chip
architect in June of this year.

[https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/13/15791918/google-hires-
app...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/13/15791918/google-hires-apple-chip-
architect-pixel-phones)

~~~
gxs
It's interesting to watch the game of telephone unfold right before your eyes.

>>> Google has already poached Apple's lead chip architect in June of this
year.

No where has it been mentioned that the person they poached was Apple's "lead"
chip architect. All it says is that google poached _An_ architect from Apple
to be it's SoC lead.

------
mtgx
I'm surprised Google would be interested in "only 100 engineers" from HTC that
I almost don't see the point. Are those engineers _that important_ to Google's
smartphone hardware efforts? Is it that much easier to acquihire them for $300
million than hire them one by one?

~~~
GFischer
Buying an existing team probably makes more sense than starting one.

And if they tried to hire all 100 they'd probably be exposed to a lawsuit
(plus they'd end spending a lot on bonuses and relocations anyways)

------
asafira
A lot of people are discussing this purchase as a way to bolstering Google's
hardware R&D prowess, which I sort of don't understand: what are some of the
most impressive phone innovations that came from HTC in the past 5 years?

~~~
habosa
Just off the top of my head some things that HTC did before anyone else:

    
    
      * First LTE phone in america (Thunderbolt)
      * Dual front speakers (BoomSound)
      * Low-MP camera (Ultrapixel)
      * Unibody aluminum phone (One M7)
      * Squeezable edges (U11)
      * Glasses-free 3d display (Evo 3d)
    

I am sure I am forgetting some.

HTC has always had really nice hardware on their phones and once in a while
they get the software right too. While a lot of these innovations have failed
in the market, in the right hands they could all be just what Google (or some
other company) needs to get in front of this market.

~~~
asafira
I appreciate some of these, but some I'm not sure I do for all of them. Just
because they released something before everyone else doesn't mean there was
real brilliance behind it --- do people really care that squeezing the phone
is a new medium for interacting with it? (Maybe it's too early to tell for
this one, but I have my doubts.)

First LTE phone: I'm not sure I see why this is "innovation" on its own; the
LTE specs were known for years before LTE networks rolled out, and I don't
think HTC made the low-level components that made it possible anyway (e.g.,
the filters). Not that it didn't require some _new_ work, but I'm not sure the
R&D dept. had to work hard on this one.

Low-MP camera: why is this important and/or innovative?

BoomSound: Is this really innovation? It didn't create much of a trend in the
smartphone market, and it used off-the-shelf parts.

I don't know much about the 3d display unfortunately.

I should have been clearer with my comment though, and asked what they have
done that have been impactful and clearly required a huge amount of expertise,
i.e., things Google might be interested in.

As an example of something that might fit the sort of work I am thinking about
is this: [https://atap.google.com/soli/](https://atap.google.com/soli/)

~~~
habosa
None of these are really scientific breakthroughs but it shows HTC can be on
the cutting edge of phone hardware.

To address what you mentioned:

    
    
      * First LTE phone means they were ahead on hardware integration, testing, and price to get to market first.
      * The Low-MP camera demonstrates that they saw the end of the highest-megapixel wars and the shift towards picture quality being subjective.
      * BoomSound has certainly kicked off a trend,  The iPhone 7 made a big deal (TV ads, etc) about its much louder dual speakers.  Nobody before HTC cared about phone speakers.

~~~
grzm
Please don't use code blocks for text quoting. They cause side scrolling which
can be annoying in desktop browsers and nigh unreadable on mobile.

Common methods to quote text blocks on HN are to use a > prefix and/or
asterisks to italicize the quoted text.

------
neves
So, can someone explain me why they sold Motorola? I can't understand their
strategy.

~~~
quantummkv
They basically wanted the patents Motorola held. They kept the patents and
sold the rest to Lenovo

~~~
hbosch
They also kept ATAP.

------
duxup
From a selfish standpoint it would be nice for me if they could get back into
phones and offer a mid range pixel (call it whatever) type device that gets
regular security updates and etc.

------
richardboegli
Confirmed by HTC

[https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=15303272](https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=15303272)

------
randall
It's interesting to me that a tweet from a single well respected journalist
(@evleaks) can set off a huge chain reaction of coverage.

------
andreiw
And we all know how well that worked out for Motorola Mobility. Especially for
its fungible "people resources".

------
eli_gottlieb
And just a year after canceling Project Ara!

~~~
agildehaus
I realize the overhead of a modular phone would make that phone lesser than an
equivalent price/weight non-modular, but at least Google would have had
something unique in what's quickly becoming a stale industry.

Instead they chose to compete head-on with the iPhone, and it's clear they're
not doing too well at that.

------
throwaway613834
Is this for their new OS? (Fuchsia?)

~~~
phkahler
Fushia running on risc-v with AV1 codec in hardware. You need to throw all the
new tech in there.

~~~
sanxiyn
Fuchsia kernel RISC-V port: [https://github.com/slavaim/riscv-
magenta](https://github.com/slavaim/riscv-magenta)

~~~
phkahler
That's good, but Google has recently forked Magenta into Zircon:

[https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Fuchsia-...](https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Fuchsia-
OS-Magenta-Zircon)

And the arch folder in the Zircon repo seems to only have x86 and ARM at the
moment. Perhaps they still need to pull a few changes over ;-)

[https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/zircon](https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/zircon)

------
baybal2
>Google will keep the HTC brand and take on about 100 HTC engineers

Only 100 engineers? They are not planning on retaining HTC's phone unit any
much functional.

------
jonthegiant
Good

------
binthere
Recommend buying?

------
dhosek
It's about time! Google should have bought a handset maker years ago! It can't
fail!

~~~
craftyguy
Google used to own Motorola Mobility.

~~~
mattnewton
That's the joke.

~~~
craftyguy
Sarcasm doesn't always convey correctly over text, especially when there are
folks around who don't know that this is not the first time Google has been
down this road.

