
Girls in California Are Latest to Seek to Become Boy Scouts - jbae29
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/23/us/girls-in-california-are-latest-to-seek-to-become-boy-scouts.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
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rustynails77
I used to be a leader in the scouts. Before I joined, our scouting group tore
itself apart because the previous leader felt that girls should be in girl
scouts rather than boy scouts.

When he finally relented, the mothers moved in and asked that activities be
'toned down'. When he refused, the complaints came in thick and fast. The
leader was removed and the group collapsed. Nobody stepped up to fill the
void.

After I joined, we spent 6 months playing skipping rope games until I asked
what the hell we were doing as a group to grow our kids. I joined the Scouts
to learn leadership and survival skills for my kids. That's when I got the
back story from our group leader (a very capable woman who had also suffered
in the skirmish and was afraid to rock the PC boat).

The first change I initiated was to split the group activities into 'soft'
activities and 'hard core' activities. Those that wanted to play skipping rope
games could. Those that wanted to learn bush survival skills could.

Interestingly, everyone dropped the skipping rope games and we actually
started to function as a productive and capable scout group. We quadrupled our
numbers in 12 months to the point we could no longer cope without additional
leadership because our sixers weren't experienced enough to take up the slack.

I don't have daughters, so I never got involved with girl scouts. While
headlines like this raise all sorts of questions about girl scouts in the 21st
century, I have no idea about them.

~~~
kaitai
The big problem, then, seems to be the parents who wanted things "toned down".
Very sad. Glad you were able to reframe things so that you could grow.

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ridiculous_fish
One of the under-appreciated qualities of the Boy Scouts is how the National
Council mostly keeps its distance, allowing individual troops to organize
themselves. There are fixed requirements for advancement through the Scout
ranks, but some troops are focused on outings, some are overtly religious,
some are basically Eagle Scout factories for college admissions, etc.

This is a great thing. It means that kids can learn the core skills and
values, like leadership, discipline, teamwork, and wilderness survival, and
receive recognition for it, even if their parents' faith, political leanings,
or goals aren't aligned with the National Council.

I hope the Council leaves it up to the individual troops as to whether they
admit girls (or boys, for that matter). Many troops will go co-ed given the
opportunity.

And as others have said, the Girl Scouts are not perceived to be as rigorous
or prestigious as the Boy Scouts, and should step up their game. It's hard to
blame girls for being uninterested in an organization best known for _selling
cookies_.

(Disclosure: Eagle Scout)

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bsilvereagle
I'm really surprised there was no mention of Venturing in this article.
Venturing is the program created by the BSA specifically to have multi-gender
troops and focus more on high adventure activities.

From the website:

> Venturing is a youth development program of the Boy Scouts of America for
> young men and women who are 14 years of age OR 13 years of age and have
> completed the eighth grade and under 21 years of age. Venturing's purpose is
> to provide positive experiences to help young people mature and to prepare
> them to become responsible and caring adults.

[http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Venturing.aspx](http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Venturing.aspx)

~~~
tlrobinson
I assume that's what this is referring to: _" While allowing girls to
participate in some affiliated programs, it keeps them out of the core
scouting curriculum that has built a reputation as the most rigorous youth
development program in the nation."_

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mixmastamyk
Hmm, I don't think every activity needs to be mixed. At that age kids have
plenty to learn from same-sex role models. However, it sounds like the GS
program is not aggressive enough for some people? Well, by all means, expand
it in to more hard-core activities.

If the GS administration won't do that, then perhaps BS should open additional
girl-only BS troops with the boy curriculum.

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j2kun
As a Boy Scout we often had sisters of scouts come along on our outings. Half
the time one or more parents would come, and it just makes more sense.
"Admitting" them as full members is just a formalism on top of the core
experience, so why not?

Also, it's a shame that these girls don't feel like girl scouts does enough
for their sense of adventure and play. The girl scouts should also step up to
accommodate them. And I think the girls are right on this one, the Girl Scouts
websites in all regions I've checked in the last ten minutes have the primary
events being "fun-filled festivals" and "leadership conferences" and "arts and
crafts workshops." The images are girls holding rainbow parachutes instead of
hard hats, fish, and model rockets like on the BSA websites.

~~~
ja27
There's no reason a Girl Scout troop can't do all sorts of adventure
activities. My wife led a troop that did all their meetings at a GS camp where
they usually cooked over a campfire as part of each meeting.

The biggest blow to Girl Scouts is how they're organized. They're almost
always single-age troops, which means there's no scout-to-scout mentoring and
there are a lot less scouts per unit. It's much harder to keep a troop alive
as the girls get older and there's a lot of consolidation. It's hard to grow
new leaders when you only have a dozen parents involved in each unit. Then
when a troop breaks up or ages out, the leaders almost always leave scouting.

I've been told it's possible to have a single Girl Scout unit with multiple
ages, but I've never seen that. The best I've seen is a couple individual
troops that share a common meeting time and place.

For example, my daughter's been in two Girl Scout troops. One is "huge"
especially for high school aged girls and has maybe 15 girls from 13 to 15.
That troop has had 3 official leaders in the 8 or so years it's been around.
Her other troop folded once it dropped to three girls. My son's Boy Scout
troop has over 100 boys from ages 11 to 17 and has at least a dozen adults in
leadership roles and dozens more registered + background checked "at large"
leaders to draw from.

~~~
dctoedt
>>> _The biggest blow to Girl Scouts is how they 're organized._

My wife has expressed the same sentiment. She was a leader in our daughter's
Girl Scout troop, which had maybe a dozen or so girls and fell apart as the
girls got to middle school and high school.

In contrast, our son's Boy Scout troop is currently over 80 years old and has
some 250 to 300 registered Scouts and maybe 50 fully-trained adult leaders
(including a number of moms).

My wife said that the biggest difference she saw between the Girl Scouts and
the Boy Scouts was that Boy Scout troops are chartered to an organization
(typically a church), whereas GS troops are all formed ad hoc.

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plcancel
Isn't there a valuable lesson to teach here?

A group has become dissatisfied with a monopoly on girl scouting and created a
more satisfying alternative. They've taken the responsibility upon themselves
to create that which they desire.

Unfortunately, I don't think that's the lesson the Unicorns' parents are
trying to encourage.

There's nothing wrong with co-ed scouting. There's nothing wrong with single-
gender scouting. Really.

~~~
RogtamBar
>There's nothing wrong with co-ed scouting.

How would that work in camps? Apart from having to have separate times for
bathing, obviously.

The wonderful thing I remember from my time was that there was very little
status jockeying in our troop. It wasn't like school at all. I felt like I
could trust and rely on most everyone.

Now, I'm not sure introducing girls into this would not mess it up. Teenage
boys behave differently with women around. Instincts involved are likely much
more powerful than mere social technology.

~~~
kaitai
Do 10-year-old girls count as "women"?

I think your concerns about the dynamic are very valid -- on both sides -- but
it's probably useful to remember that the girls and boys specifically
mentioned in the article are pre-puberty (10 and 12 year olds, one 13 yr old).

~~~
sirsar
That's the entry age. Boy Scouts continues well through puberty (one can be a
Scout until 18).

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beefsack
Is it only in the US in which Scouts are called Boy Scouts? It's just been
called "Scouts" here in Australia for as long as I can remember, I was a
member about 20 years ago and we had quite a few girls in our group back then.

~~~
notatoad
it seems like most countries have moved to co-ed programs. I know it's just
been "Scouts" since i was a kid 20 years ago in Canada too.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting#Co-
educational](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting#Co-educational)

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forrestthewoods
If boy scouts want to let in girls that's fine. I also think it's fine if they
don't.

I would be annoyed if they let girls in and starting changing things. If you
wanted something different then go start something different.

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dctoedt
The comments to the NYT article are worth reading, especially the one under
the tab "NYT Picks."

(Disclosure: I'm an Eagle Scout, as are my brother and my son, and I'm a long-
time adult leader in what we're pretty sure is the largest Boy Scout troop in
the U.S.)

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littletimmy
What's wrong with having boy-only activities club and girls-only activities
club?

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heepler
I want to join the Unicorns.

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cballard
Ugh, but the Boy Scouts are homophobic and the Girl Scouts are progressive and
_awesome_.

It would be better if this was the other way around. I'd love for the Girl
Scouts to become the "Scouts" and the Boy Scouts to die off.

~~~
dstyrb
Great generalizations there.

