
Why do Russians smile so little (and Americans so much?)  - cwan
http://english.pravda.ru//society/sex/22-03-2011/117282-russian_smile-0/
======
tejaswiy
Actually, I've experienced something similar when moving from India to the US.
In India, you just walk into a store, and say I need x, y, z and get out of
the store unless you know the owner of the store personally (in which case,
the transaction differs completely and you don't get to the point before
chatting about the weather, how the respective families are doing and
complaining about the roads/traffic or some such thing).

Compare that to the US, where a coffee shop like Dunkin' handles like a
thousand people every day during rush hour and people still mechanically say,
"Hi, How are you doing? What can I get for you today?" and it's inevitably met
with "Good, how are you? and I'll get x, y, z..".

I'll admit to finding that transaction incredibly dishonest when I came here
first, to the point that I was actually complaining about it to people. I
mean, does the person at the counter really care as to how I was doing? I'm
used to it now, it's almost become an instinct, but still cringe a bit when I
catch myself doing it involuntarily.

Old habits, etc. I guess.

~~~
mahmud
I was a barista at Starbucks and I meant every word of my greetings. The 5
seconds you make eye contact with someone and say hi to them are vital for
gathering your senses, and starting this interaction a new. If you didn't say
"hi, how are you", asshole clients would rub off on you and you would smear
that bad vibe on all subsequent clients. However, when you greet someone, and
they greet you back warmly, crap-vibes get washed away and you get good
energies.

I used to look forward to my favorite clients; it's like stones in a puddle,
you jump from one to the next to get to where you're going. Same with good
people, they help you go through the day. So start the day positively, greet
everyone cheerfully, serve loyally and enjoy yourself; the 8 hours pass
QUICKLY.

~~~
tejaswiy
Interesting, never looked at it from that perspective. Thanks!

~~~
alnayyir
I worked some pretty bad jobs when I was a kid, similar to his experience at
Starbucks, he's totally right about the nice people really getting you through
your day.

------
zavulon
I'm Russian-American and visit Russia every few years or so.

The first time I went back, I remember getting on the Aeroflot plane, and
finding out a blanket was missing (on an 8 hour flight, a necessity). I called
the stewardess over and said, with an ear-to-ear American smile "Hi, it looks
like I don't have a blanket, could you please get me one?"

She gave me a nasty look, and said "No". Then she turned around and walked
away.

And that's when I realized I'm back home already.

~~~
VB6_Foreverr
You should try Ryanair sometime

~~~
arethuza
I'm pretty sure Ryanair charges £5 for a nasty look.

------
bpodgursky
"The American smile does not mean anything really. Many Russians take the
American smile as strange and artificial. "

On the other hand, by defining the default behavior as "smile", if somebody
looks unhappy, you can actually tell that something is wrong. When the default
expression is "gloom", it's impossible to separate "default gloom" from
"actually unhappy."

~~~
bluekeybox
The article contradicts itself, and thereby exposes its Russian-centrism. Read
the last sentence:

 _... Gorbachev's success in the West is based on the fact that he became the
first Soviet leader who smiled to people in public. Many [Americans] perceived
[Gorbachev] as a person who was open to communication and therefore not
dangerous._

So how exactly does a smile in America "not mean anything really" when it
allows Americans to distinguish people in their society who are open to
communication from those who aren't? That's a very clear social function, full
of meaning if you ask me.

TL;DR: in American society, smile serves two functions: (1) to express emotion
of happiness/satisfaction, (2) to signify that one is "open to communication,
while in Russian society the role of smile is exclusively tied to (1). Failure
to perceive the dual-purpose role of smile can lead a Russian to conclude that
smile has no function at all in American society (not "meaningful").
Similarly, failure to perceive the singular role of smile in Russian society,
can lead an American to incorrectly conclude that all Russians are "closed to
communication."

~~~
anateus
I think you're getting to the point of it: the smile vs. no smile decision is
about the default "communicate with me" or "don't communicate with me"
posture.

This is much like how midwestern and southern visitors perceive northeastern
cities in the US. Although I've found strangers in Boston perfectly
accommodating, they tend to be rather less ebullient about it than elsewhere
in the US.

Well, this is all anecdotal, so these are _my_ observations as a Soviet-born,
Israeli-raised, now-American.

------
m0nastic
One of my neighbors is a diplomat for the Russian Embassy, and we talk a lot
(he likes that it lets him practice English, and I like to hear his
perspective on things; not to mention he tells incredibly interesting stories
about commanding Russian destroyers).

He told me once that the biggest difference he saw so far between Russians and
American's is that if you ask an average Russian if they can do something,
they'll say something like "Probably not, but I'll do my best.", whereas if
you ask an average American, they'll say "Absolutely, I'm great at this."
irrespective of their actual abilities.

That's a pretty broad generalization, but I think there's definitely a
cultural difference between a more cynical Russian culture and a more
optimistic American one.

~~~
samtp
While it doesn't apply universally, a good manta I've heard for business is
"under promise, over perform". Fits well with the Russian outlook

~~~
koenigdavidmj
Scotty's Law? (If you think something takes N units time, say it takes 3N
units, so that you look brilliant when it takes 2N units)

------
scotty79
It's pretty much the same in Poland.
<http://wulffmorgenthaler.com/strip/2009/09/15/>

It changes slightly now with younger people and wealth but still after comming
back to Poland after few months in Italy I was amazed how gray it was here.
How washed up were colours of peoples clothes and how they matched their
facial expressions. Being in public space in Poland seems to be about blending
into neutral grayness not broadcasting yourself into the public space in best
possible light. Probably we inherited this from years of communism when being
noticed could get you in trouble and from years of transition to capitalism
when displaing your well being could get you robbed.

~~~
nikcub
50+ years of living under dreary communism can do that to you. I see the same
throughout Eastern Europe. Some countries came out of it better than others.

~~~
daimyoyo
It wasn't the 50 years of communism as much as the 400 years of imperial
oppression that preceded it.

------
rdtsc
A couple of observations:

* A lot of business in Eastern Europe have recently learned the value of good customer service. Many employers require that their workers smile _and_ behave politely. When there is a choice between 2 grocery stores, I noticed my mother, would rather pay a little more and go further to the store where they are polite and smile rather than the one were they frown and throw the change back at you without even making eye contact.

* A lot of the perception of "gloomy" Soviet people come from pictures people see. I lived half of my life here and half in ex-Soviet Union. Even when I show pictures of our family having fun (usually a picnic in the woods, making kabobs, playing badminton) Americans are surprised and ask "How come nobody is smiling? is it because life was so hard for you?" -- now that question always makes me smile (pun intended). They see us together obviously having fun, but because we don't smile at the camera, they assume we were suffering.

* I think there is often a confusion between "smiling" and "acting politely". Both are orthogonal. I think a forced smiling is a little disturbing, as it can be detected as such. However, I would rather take a polite and courteous attitude rather than smiling.

* As others pointed out, smiling actually ends up affecting the mood and makes the person feel and act happier. So in this case a force smile ends up becoming a genuine smile.

* In some cultures (Asian I think, anyone have a reference? ) laughter and smiling can be a sign of fear. I remember hearing about groups of civilians being slaughtered because they responded with laughter at their captors (Western soldiers). That laugher was perceived as mockery which enraged the soldiers. So it seems there are multiple interpretations for smiling depending on the cultural background.

~~~
Nick_C
> In some cultures (Asian I think, anyone have a reference? ) laughter and
> smiling can be a sign of fear.

I remember Australians were outraged when one of the Bali bombers was shown in
court laughing and smiling as the charges were read out. Later, various
commentators said that, for Javanese, smiling in public didn't necessarily
mean someone was happy or joyous, but was nervous or stressed.

I don't know how widespread that is in the rest of Asia, though.

------
grishick
Once, a co-worker told me post-factum that the biggest hesitation about hiring
me was that I didn't look excited enough. Luckily for me it's a known
stereotype and there was someone who said "he is just Russian, they are all
like that". It took me a few years to get used to the American smile, and then
couple more years to get used to the meaningless "how are you?". What I still
cannot get used to though is the "stranger nod". Every time you look at an
American, they nod at you and say "how are you", even a stranger in a shopping
mall. Once, when I was visiting Moscow, I tried looking at a stranger and
nodding. The most friendly reaction of a Muscovite was a confused look, the
least friendly almost got me into a fight. Maybe it is just me being
"Russian", but to me this nod and the meaningless "how are you", and the
protective smile mean the same as a Muscovite's angry "what do you want?"

------
hoag
When I visited Greece several years ago, I remember reading a similar
"warning" in many Greek travel guide books: that men, especially, should not
smile too frequently and without reason, because it makes you look weak,
immature, childish, shy, etc.

As one who is a perpetually happy and upbeat person, I found it remarkably
hard to follow this admonition.

~~~
VB6_Foreverr
I'm not calling you a liar but what you say runs counter to the advice of The
Eagles who sang :

[i]Just put that monster smile on them rosy cheeks 'Cause the Greeks don't
want no freaks [/i]

~~~
VB6_Foreverr
It's a line from a song for God's sake

~~~
VB6_Foreverr
Ok so my first comment could be downvoted because people think I'm not funny.
My subsequent comment was just to clarify that the first comment was not
anything personal against anyone. So why was that downvoted? An explanation
from the downvoter would be nice

~~~
prodigal_erik
I suspect it's due to this portion of
<http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>:

> Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it
> makes boring reading.

~~~
VB6_Foreverr
Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it

------
dimitar
I remember here (in Bulgaria) 10 years ago storekeepers and taxi drivers
wouldn't even say hello or goodbye or thank you. In fact if there was any
communication it would be probably be rude.

Now, everyone says hello, thanks even smiles sometimes.

It is much more pleasant and appears natural. And I guess people have learned
that manners sell.

------
raquo
> if you smile, those people will take it as an insult

The article is well-balanced except for this. In Russia, a smile is not
frowned upon, as this may imply, it's just not on by default. Being a Russian,
I just don't feel obliged to keep a smile on my face for politeness or
whatever, but it doesn't mean that it's harder to break the ice with me than
with anyone else.

~~~
anghyflawn
I agree. I grew up in Moscow, have lived in Norway for some time now and (I
think) picked up the friendlier attitude - but I've never experienced that
others are somehow uncomfortable with me smiling or whatever when I'm back. (I
think this is important because a lot of the stereotypes come down not to the
smile per se, but to the fact that people maybe be more self-conscious about
talking to a foreigner or similar.)

------
wallflower
"Fly the Friendly Skies" -United Airlines motto until 1996

"Multiple regression revealed r_=.135 for ‘Q20 The crew gives real, friendly
smiles’. This may indicate that whilst real, friendly smiles contribute to an
overall positive perception of ‘Expressive Display’ they have a small, direct
influence on overall satisfaction...

The findings have shown that it is possible to quantify the effects of 'real'
smiles on service satisfaction, even though, in this case is, it is rather
small. There is a strong relationship between 'real' smiles and the perception
of genuine care for the consumer."

-Measuring the Value of a 'Real' Smile in Service Providers’ Expressive Display: Evidence from the Airline Industry

------
Unosolo
In no particular order:

\- In Russia when they ask: "how are you" they actually expect a genuine and
extended answer.

\- Smiles are scarce and reserved for inner social circle only.

\- Men act toward any strangers as if they expected to be assaulted at any
moment.

\- Everyone and especially women dress up most of the time.

\- When paying for goods or services change is never given straight into the
palm of your hand, it's always placed into a little plate or stand instead. As
if the seller is scared of any bodily contact.

\- Once the communication barriers are broken and you enter the inner social
circle Russian hospitality is genuine and exceeds by far any Western
standards.

~~~
gruseom
Your last point is good and applies to more than Russians (though it
accurately describes my experience with Russians too). I've noticed it to a
lesser extent ( _everything_ is to a lesser extent compared with Russians) in
East coast vs. West coast Americans. In California people are friendlier on
the surface but harder to really get to know. In New York the surfaces are
ruder but once you're accepted as not a stranger the interactions are warmer
and more satisfying.

Somewhat related, the late cartoonist Callahan had a classic called "The
Difference Between New York and LA". In one panel, labeled LA, was a guy
saying "Have a nice day" and thinking "Fuck you." In the opposite panel,
labeled New York, was a guy saying "Fuck you" and thinking "Have a nice day".

~~~
mdda
NY vs. LA Cartoon : <http://slithytove.com/media/pictures/callahan.jpg>

~~~
gruseom
You found it! But did I imagine "fuck you" instead of "drop dead"? I'm going
to bet that he made multiple versions and that this one is bowdlerized.

------
timurlenk
While the article is just a bit superficial the smiling issue applies to most
if not all east european countries.

Indeed, east europeans will mostly have a 'neutral' facial expression which is
interpreted by most westerners as a frown. It's not a frown, it's just
neutral.

East europeans will smile for a good reason and will not hesitate to break in
to a laughter if the situation is funny enough. However, walking about smiling
for no reason is indeed considered the attribute of mad men. For example in
the romanian language 'vesel' means happy but it can also mean mad, disturbed,
absent minded or drunk if put in a certain context.

Not smiling can be an impediment if doing business in the western culture but
east europeans eventually get it.

------
bane
In the early 90's I had the good fortune to participate in an exchange program
with some kids from Yekaterinburg. I got to spend a little while in Moscow and
the summer out in the Urals. It was a fantastic educational experience I draw
on to this day.

One key takeaway that my exchange group all agreed on, in public, Russians
will just as soon run you over with their car as smile, but once you get
inside a close social circle, Russians are easily as warm, and probably more
hospitable than any American -- full of warmth and great humor. Many laughs
were to be had around the dinner table in a little Soviet-Era flat, drinking
Vodka, eating, singing and dancing and telling tall-tales.

------
bluishgreen
Were Americans always smiling? These pictures from before WW2 seem to indicate
otherwise.

[http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2010/07/26/captured-
ame...](http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2010/07/26/captured-america-in-
color-from-1939-1943/2363/)

It might be because they were in a depression, but look at picture 13, that
situation almost calls for a smile. So the most likely scenario seems to be
the smiling is a relatively new cultural thing.

~~~
harshpotatoes
As a continuation on the idea that they were in a depression, but also
remember that picture 13 is located in Oklahoma and a mere six years earlier
they were probably experiencing the dust bowl.

------
varjag
Protip from a native: don't smile in former USSR when dealing with service or
authorities. A smile is perceived as weakness and an invitation to pwn you
over.

------
daimyoyo
I'm not Russian but I have the same reaction to people smiling without reason.
There are few things that annoy me more than someone putting on a fake smile.
Especially in customer service. Bank tellers seem to be the worst. "Hi! Nice
shirt! How are you today?" You don't care how I am today. Stop talking and
process my transaction.

------
spektom
There's a proverb in Russian: "laugh without a reason is a sign of
foolishness". I don't know where this saying came from, but it's broadly
accepted to tell it to anyone who smiles. I was always told this in school,
since I smiled a lot. And I'm happy it hasn't had any affect on me :-)

~~~
deepwalker
Its not proverb, its teasing rhyme. And this is piece of journalista shit. All
much much simpler - you just need not to smile in soviet country. But now we
come to shiny capitalistic future, and people learn to smile to their clients
:)

------
michaelpinto
New Yorkers don't smile! (unless nobody is looking)

~~~
mshron
We do and we don't. Knowing how to look closed off is very helpful for dealing
with people trying to hand you things, but smiling at wait staff has always
seemed to help me.

Then again, very few people I interact with in New York are actually
originally from New York, so I suppose it's hard to get a clean signal on how
"New Yorkers" behave.

~~~
michaelpinto
The wait staff are being nice to you because they think you're a tourist! ; D

------
cageface
I'm in Vietnam right now which is currently a _very_ popular destination spot
for Russians. There are far more Russian tourists here in Nha Trang than there
are of any other nationality. Yet almost every Vietnamese I've talked to seems
indifferent at best to them. Unlike the generally easy-going and jovial
Aussies and Brits all over SE Asia, the Russians always seem gruff and
taciturn. Maybe it's just a surface difference but it affects the response
they get from other cultures.

------
doublez
Ppl, this is a low-fi piece journalistic trolling - the "subject matter" was
growing a beard when I was a Moscow high school senior 20 years ago :).

Leaving aside the Russian tendency to take ill-informed pot shots at Americans
(a national past time), cultural anthropology is an actual discipline with
actual data to peruse - _lots_ of it - if you're interested. Curiosities of
cultural interaction go far wider than the "happy fool/gloomy fool" non-
dilemma here. ;)

------
kds
From the comments below the article: "I am an American and I do smile a lot. I
am happy, content, and armed. I do not fear strangers, and I smile because I
am happy to share my joy with you."

He-he... A perfect example of neurotic behavior. And fearing no strangers and
being armed is something in the same league with being happy and content -
that's really an awesome indicator for an open and friendly culture ;)

------
mman
My two cents as an American: fake smiling and fake tone of voice are equally
annoying, apparent, and dishonest. It creates a really unpleasant feeling to
see people expressing themselves in a way that's inconsistent with their
current feelings. It's logical to be wary of the person. Who knows if they
might deceive you in other ways?

/me purchases a one way ticket to Russia.

~~~
mman
Sorry, i meant to deliver that last line with a superfluous emoticon. =).

------
trurl123
That's wrong: many Russian tourists traveling to Thailand still feel
uncomfortable about this country. Thailand is known as a country of a thousand
smiles. Many Russians love Thailand and I don't hear about feel uncomfortable.

------
jarek
Sure is a lot of ethnocentrism in these comments :)

------
zwischenzug
Stalin smiled quite a bit, if memory serves.

~~~
VB6_Foreverr
Yes but he wasn't Russian ;)

~~~
shortlived
Georgians are some of the most hospitable people on this planet.

------
danking00
I love meeting new people. Smiling is like saying "Hey there! I'm So and So,
how are you? Tell me about yourself!"

------
VB6_Foreverr
My guesses :

1: America is a nation of immigrants and the descendants of immigrants. People
who emigrate from their home country tend to be more likely to be of an
optimistic nature (or manic depessive.) 2: Russia's unfortunate history must
make for a traumatised psyche in the population as a whole. By contrast
America's has been one success after another.

------
bluekeybox
What does this have to do with startups and programming?

~~~
thamer
<http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes
more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the
answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

~~~
coderdude
This guideline applied when this site was populated mostly by hacker
entrepreneurs. There have been polls in the past that revealed the HN userbase
is now comprised of mostly "non-hackers." As this site has become more popular
it stands to reason that we're in the minority now as there simply aren't that
many people who identify as hackers (let alone entrepreneurs).

If you reduce it further to "anything that gratifies one's intellectual
curiosity" then you open the gates to _anything_. That is why we have stories
about smiling in Russia on the front page.

