
Apple Could Be Working with Goldman Sachs on a Credit Card - sahin-boydas
https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/21/apple-could-be-working-with-goldman-sachs-on-a-credit-card/
======
tokyodude
Is this the point where Apple starts to demand 30% of all physical goods
purchased through iOS? I mean why not? What's the justification for 30% of
netflix or youtube subscriptions or digital goods in general? That same
justification would seem to apply to physical items just as easily.

In any case I don't know the non-credit-card based payment systems in the USA
and if any of them are taking off.

Here in Japan several have sprung up recently including PayPay by Softbank and
they are currently charging 0% to retailers for the first 3 years and
apparently 0% if the retailers signs up for their bank.

To customers they are offering 20% off all purchases up to $10 a purchase (so
in other words $10 of a $50 purchase) and you're allowed to collect up to $500
total over the campaign. And they give you $5 to sign up.

[https://paypay.ne.jp/](https://paypay.ne.jp/)

Also surprising is Paidy run by DMM (a company that makes the majority of
their money selling porn but has been branching out like crazy)

[https://paidy.com/](https://paidy.com/)

It does make me wonder how credit card companies can possibly keep their lock.
I'm guessing they'll try to get everyone else banned?

IIRC PayPay works via OR code so no need to go through Apple Pay (NFC) or
similar and just as fast or faster. Potentially you could even use it without
an app.

~~~
chrisseaton
> What's the justification for 30% of digital goods in general?

What's the justification for any price? The market supports it.

~~~
anth_anm
The alternative is you get no access to iOS.

It's not a market, it's a walled garden.

This shit is why I am so in favour of Epic's game store. 12% because they can.
Finally challenging the absurdity of 30%.

------
motohagiography
Speculative, but Apple and Goldman are the only ones who can do this because
Apple's user base is not fragmented like Android device OEMs.

I'd watch this story.

By not having an existing card relationship, Goldman is the only one large and
flexible enough to stand up new infrastructure that doesn't rely on supporting
or integrating to legacy EMV protocols and infrastructure, which could allow
for a closed loop between GS and Apple.

Even without a closed loop, Apple has a SE in their devices they can provision
unique keys to during manufacture and this mitigates the main limitation of
EMV tokenization, which was how to provision and manage tokens for offline
payments mode, and who holds the risk/gets compensated for it.

With a closed loop, they don't need tokens, just a ledger, for which solutions
exist.

Who loses? G&D, Oburthur, Mastercard, etc. I'd be surprised if this didn't
happen.

~~~
incognition
It's not speculative, it's been reported in the WSJ now:
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-
on-...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-on-credit-
card-paired-with-iphone-11550750400)

What I didn't know is that Goldman offers microloans?!

------
bboreham
Apple has a credit card already, in partnership with Barclaycard.

[https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/financing](https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/financing)

Edit: previous discussion from the last time this was “news”:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17040266](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17040266)

~~~
heavymark
That is simply a partnership where instead of cash back you get apple gift
cards at rewards. So it's not rather notable Apple wise, since most cards you
can redeem for Apple gift cards. Last year it was announced Apple is ending
that card relationship and switching to Goldman. At that time it sounded like
Goldman partnership would be similar but today's rumors suggest it maybe an
actual Apple Branded credit card that is fully integrated into iOS which would
be amazing. But of course there are so few details that it's hard to judge,
but certainly interesting none the less to see what Apple could do in the
credit card space.

~~~
obmelvin
Can you expand on how that is amazing? Maybe I'm just tired, but I don't see
how it's any better than existing mobile payment options just because of some
partnership. I can already hold my phone up to a compatible POS device and pay
with my chase card.

~~~
notduncansmith
For starters, Apple’s commitment to privacy makes me feel way better about
them having my purchase data and being able to add value alongside my other
personal data: potentially less opportunity for fraud, better offers, better
purchase insights, etc. Maybe not “amazing”, but I can see some ways it could
be quite nice compared to alternatives.

~~~
webmobdev
> Apple’s commitment to privacy makes me feel way better about them having my
> purchase data ...

Sure. The thing is, how long do you think this "commitment" is going to last?

I trusted Google in the early days and got burned when I realized how invasive
and intrusive they had become, and were totally unapologetic about it. I do
not see why Apple - a trillion dollar multi-national corporate - will be any
different.

In fact, they already have a lot of data on you, especially if you use iCloud.
And Apple has already started becoming intrusive under the guise of protecting
our privacy -

e.g. "Oh we are going to block all multi-site pervasive tracking on Safari -
to protect your privacy! But ofcourse, first we need to know what and all
sites sets these cookies on your device ... and so we can't let you control
your cookies. But don't worry, everything will be anonymized ..."

or

how IOS 12+ now deliberately makes it even more difficult to find the
"Restrictions" setting panel that gives you fine grained control over allowing
or restricting access to cameras, microphones, contacts etc. (it's now under -
Settings > Screen Time and tap Content & Privacy Restrictions)

or

how ios 12+ "Screen Time" is designed to collect information on everything you
do on your iDevice (even other iDevices and sync all that info through iCloud)
...

And so on ... so let's not kid ourselves that a for-profit CORPORATE is our
best bet in protecting OUR privacy - they want you to believe that so that we
don't use our collective will to pressurize our democratic government to make
privacy enhancing laws and regulate companies that insist on collecting our
data.

(On a related note, other governments have begun to recognize that defending
their citizen's right can protect their country's interest and sovereignty.
That is why EU has been tightening their laws. And this -
[https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-has-been-sharing-
india...](https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-has-been-sharing-indian-bank-
customers039-data-with-us-intelligence-agencies) \- explains why India, for
example, is now insisting that US companies store their data in India).

~~~
oarsinsync
> I trusted Google in the early days and got burned when I realized how
> invasive and intrusive they had become, and were totally unapologetic about
> it.

I'm assuming this was pre-gmail then, as they were very open about what they
were doing once gmail came along, just very few of us actually understood the
implications of what that meant at the time.

> e.g. "Oh we are going to block all multi-site pervasive tracking on Safari -
> to protect your privacy! But ofcourse, first we need to know what and all
> sites sets these cookies on your device ... and so we can't let you control
> your cookies. But don't worry, everything will be anonymized ..."

I don't think iOS has ever let you have fine-grained control over what cookies
are present on your device. It's not that they've removed this option, they
never added it in the first place. MacOS has this ability still.

> how IOS 12+ now deliberately makes it even more difficult to find the
> "Restrictions" setting panel that gives you fine grained control over
> allowing or restricting access to cameras, microphones, contacts etc. (it's
> now under - Settings > Screen Time and tap Content & Privacy Restrictions)

This is device-level restrictions, IE to prevent whoever's using your device
from making changes, rather than app-level stuff. App-level stuff is even more
prominent than ever. Settings -> Privacy

> how ios 12+ "Screen Time" is designed to collect information on everything
> you do on your iDevice (even other iDevices and sync all that info through
> iCloud) ...

iCloud sync disabled by default, opt-in, not opt-out. You have to turn it on
if you want to have a view of all your devices from a single pane of glass. If
you don't, and are happy checking each device individually, you can do that
too.

Much like gmail, this was also announced very loudly, so you may be right that
this is a warning of terrible things to come.

> let's not kid ourselves that a for-profit CORPORATE is our best bet in
> protecting OUR privacy

You are absolutely right. Unfortunately, privacy is like security - you have
to trade between that and convenience. As far as smartphones go, most private
and convenient option (for me) is an Apple device. Which sucks, as Apple is
overpriced, and has a software stack that rivals Microsofts in the early
2000s. I use it because I'm locked into the eco-system and there's no "better"
(subjective) alternative, not because I have any particular joy in using their
products anymore.

~~~
webmobdev
> I'm assuming this was pre-gmail then, as they were very open about what they
> were doing once gmail came along

Actually, they weren't - in fact, it was after Gmail that their subtle
marketing become louder that Google "does no evil" and would be a champion for
your privacy. Google "reading you email" to show ads was controversial. They
went to great length to try to fool us that data from their various products
would never be combined and be isolated.

For example, they claimed that anyone using Google Adsense on a website
wouldn't have any benefits in enhancing their presence on Google search
results. But SEO's knew it long before Google themselves announced, that using
Google Adsense on a website ensured that Google would crawl their website
immediately.

You are right that very few of us understood the implications of what they
were doing.

> I don't think iOS has ever let you have fine-grained control over what
> cookies are present on your device.

They did. Safari in IOS 7 had these four options for "Cookies and Website
Data":

\- Always Block \- Allow from current websites only \- Allow from websites I
visit \- Always Allow

(Source: [https://www.macobserver.com/tips/quick-tip/ios-tip-be-
carefu...](https://www.macobserver.com/tips/quick-tip/ios-tip-be-careful-when-
blocking-safari-cookies/) )

Where as now there is only "Block All Cookies" option. Naturally, you can't
enable and use that since it breaks a lot of websites. And so we have to
believe Apple that their "anti-tracking" is robust and actually works, while
also allowing Apple to know every website I visit.

> This is device-level restrictions, IE to prevent whoever's using your device
> from making changes,

These subtle design changes are called "Dark Patterns" and intended to mislead
and confuse the user.

An example of a dark pattern in a user interface is signing out of Gmail. If
you remember, Gmail (as did Hotmail, YMail etc.) used to prominently show the
LOGOUT / SIGNOUT link in top right corner, or in the bottom of their page. But
then, they hid it in a drop down menu. So most users, confused, just closed
their browser window when they couldn't figure out how to logout. Thus,
allowing Google to better profile them by associating their search history
using the Google Account / Gmail cookies. Now even Microsoft, Yahoo, Facebook
etc. all do the same.

(Some more examples and context on "Dark Patterns" in UI design -
[https://uxplanet.org/5-common-ux-dark-patterns-and-user-
frie...](https://uxplanet.org/5-common-ux-dark-patterns-and-user-friendly-
alternatives-6c8c2f127242) ).

Their earlier design was easier and better. Now they have just made it more
UN-intuitive and confusing. This is deliberate, in my opinion.

> iCloud sync disabled by default, opt-in, not opt-out.

And sometimes, when you update ios / macOS, you suddenly find that all iCloud
options have been enabled by default and all your earlier settings changed. I
have noticed this once or twice in last 10 years or so since I started using
iDevices.

> As far as smartphones go, most private and convenient option (for me) is an
> Apple device.

Try Sailfish OS on Sony Phones. (
[https://jolla.com/sailfishx/](https://jolla.com/sailfishx/) \- this is the
mobile OS that Apple is concerned about as it has all the features of a
desktop OS with true multi-tasking, and yet is truly built for mobile with its
gesture based ui (that Apple has copied from them).

Ofcourse, Sailfish OS still has to go a long way in offering the kind of
device level and app level restrictions that ios offers, but I am hopeful
it'll reach feature parity soon.

------
jccalhoun
I hate these "could be" headlines. They could be doing anything. Apple could
be working on making pigs fly. I don't think they are but they could be...

~~~
Gpetrium
Without 'could be' society would mostly be reactionary. There are huge
industries associated with prediction.

Some may look at a potential Goldman+Apple partnership as a market changer,
value adder, among many other things. In short, different data can have
different value to different stakeholders.

~~~
TimTheTinker
> Without 'could be' society would mostly be reactionary.

I know you meant this in a strictly economic sense, but it strikes me that
adding prediction to a reactionary society only changes what and when they
react, not the fact that they're reacting in the first place.

------
duxup
On the surface this would seem to be a way to get to the processing fees and
etc that occur with any transaction when it comes to Apple's systems.
Considering the amount of money going through Apple for various things, this
is probabbly a cheap deal to make with a lot of upside.

Amazon has their card, Costco, retailers, etc.

~~~
gbrown
The fees per transaction charged by credit card companies seem crazy to me in
2019, in that they're exorbitant and bear no relationship to their actual
costs. The industry really seems like it should be a candidate for anti-trust
action.

I have no relevant domain expertise though, so I'd be interested to hear
alternative viewpoints.

~~~
dalyons
idk why you're downvoted; australia did exactly that recently - there's now a
federal law capping credit card interchange fees at 0.8% maximum. The EU is
now 0.3% max.

Of course that means that you dont get so many fancy rewards benefits, but
thats kinda silly anyway (getting ~1% back in rewards in exchange for a ~3%
tax on everything)

EDIT: also, it feels very discriminatory. Well off people get the fancy cards
with the biggest kickbacks, poor people get shitty cards with no benefits, but
everyone pays the hidden 3% tax....

~~~
lotsofpulp
As long as vendors are free to offer different pricing based on payment
method, it should resolve itself.

Even right now, I don’t think there’s is anything stopping vendors from
offering everyone x% off by using debit cards.

~~~
leesalminen
You can do it with credit cards as well. The trick is that the merchant must
frame it as a “cash discount” and not a “card surcharge”. This means that the
prices posted are the “full price” and then you can discount it on the cash.

There’s been a lot of back and forth on this over recent years, but this is my
understanding of what’s currently allowed. Could change tomorrow if Visa
changes their mind.

~~~
lotsofpulp
The FTC's website clearly says the merchant is free to offer a discount for
different methods of payment, such as cash or debit card, so I don't think
Visa has any power here.

[https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-
center/guidance/new...](https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-
center/guidance/new-rules-electronic-payments-lower-costs-retailers)

------
rconti
I was thinking "oh, cool, maybe they'll find a way to break up the
Visa/Mastercard duopoly and... oh, nope."

~~~
gruglife
I was thinking the same thing too. I don't understand why someone else hasn't
come up with a better product to get around the Visa/Mastercard network.

~~~
clintonb
Money. It takes a lot of money to go to all the banks and convince them to
switch credit and debit cards. Before that you have to convince the merchants
to accept a new card network. That takes even more money.

This cost is why we saw some retailers attempt to make their own wallets. A
wallet app is a bit easier to integrate for the merchants than a new card
network. The downside is that consumers don’t care about wallet apps. We want
our credit card rewards!

~~~
jessaustin
Presumably, a properly-implemented retailer wallet app would produce some
economic surplus, which could be shared with consumers in order to convince
them to participate?

~~~
runako
Restaurants like Starbucks do exactly this. You pre-buy Starbucks credit that
you later use to pay for coffee.

Starbucks benefits because they only incur transaction fees for every (say)
$25 pre-paid block, instead of for every $3 coffee. Swipe fees decrease as a
percentage of revenue.

They reward consumers via their loyalty program.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Starbucks benefits because they only incur transaction fees for every (say)
> $25 pre-paid block, instead of for every $3 coffee. Swipe fees decrease as a
> percentage of revenue.

They also incur benefits because money in hand and earning returns _today_ for
goods and services that will (maybe) be provided _in the future_ is better
than money received only at the point of sale.

------
azinman2
“And by launching a card, Apple would prove once again that, given enough
time, all companies eventually become banks.”

Is this true? I can think of GE, but who else? What percentage of 100+ yo
companies do this?

~~~
kingaillas
They might not be true banks, but lots and lots of companies become enough of
a bank to issue loans or credit cards... to customers that want to buy their
products. e.g. car companies, department stores, gasoline companies, etc.

I had a buddy that worked for Caterpillar Finance, the credit arm of the folks
that make heavy machinery like bulldozers. They issue loans to companies for
purchasing their stuff, etc.

------
sonnyblarney
Should note: Apple does partnerships with entities while a new consumer
behaviour is in approach, to learn from it and have the option of going 'fully
monty' if/when the time arrives.

Before the iPhone, Apple did a big partnership with motorola on a phone that
acted like an iPod and integrated with iTunes etc... I was essentially to wet
their beak in the market and learn.

~~~
jjtheblunt
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Rokr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Rokr)

------
nkkollaw
Apple cannot get computers right anymore, they're clever to try to diversify.

If they can create a credit card that steals 30% of the revenue from the
company that actually created the product like they do with their App Store,
they're set.

------
throwaway-1283
I have low expectations that this will be very revolutionary. Sounds like a
standard no fee 2% cash back card. The only thing I can see is maybe the card
is more deeply integrated into your iPhone or Watch than a typical card added
to Wallet and a custom app to pay your bill.

------
thefounder
One more thing: a MasterCard with x% cashback in partnership with Goldman
Sachs. This will change the way you pay!

Let's all hope this won't happen otherwise expect a lot of other similar
"vertical" services designed to milk existing Apple fans/customers.

------
jessaustin
If Apple had a payment system of their own built into the OS, the perennial
observations that Apple are less evil than Google because they track less
customer data, would ring a bit more hollow.

~~~
dkonofalski
Not really. Google takes your data and tracks and manages it on their servers.
Apple's take, on the other hand, does all machine learning and data-processing
on the device itself which means that it never leaves your control. This could
still be the case for the majority of that payment data. Even the current
iteration of Apple Pay creates a temporary card number for banks so that they
can't track user behavior across purchases.

------
ddingus
I just had a brief vision of some translucent card, chip, embedded e paper
like display, maybe it mooches power from the reader to do something.

------
kyrra
As TechCrunch just links to WSJ in the first sentence, maybe we should link
there instead?:

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-
on-...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-goldman-sachs-team-up-on-credit-
card-paired-with-iphone-11550750400)

Paywall bypass: [https://outline.com/YsNyha](https://outline.com/YsNyha)

~~~
AlphaWeaver
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19216292](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19216292)

------
momentmaker
Curious to see how one can churn it...

------
tempodox
Slow news day?

------
ksec
Lots of Questions Unanswered.

1\. This isn't really "news", it was reported previously (
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17040266](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17040266)
)

2\. This isn't the first Apple Credit Card, as noted else where, Apple had one
with Barclaycard.

3\. So What exactly is different between this one with Goldman and Previous
one with Barclaycard.

4\. This is US only. Much like Apple Pay Cash, is still not available anywhere
else.

5\. Why Doesn't Apple double down on Stored Value Payment Method? Where your
Apple Pay hold "Cash" inside it and could be used for Apple Pay.

6\. The Apple Wallet Implementation still sucks, 5 years after they announce
they want to get rid of your Wallet. Nothing has Changed, nothing has been
done. Those Discount / MemberShip Cards are still in my Wallet.

Basically I am not entirely happy with the progress of every Apple Services.
Apple Map, Apple Music, Apple Pay......

~~~
webwielder2
What are you entirely happy about?

~~~
ksec
Apple Map - Outside of US, Apple Map is literally useless in Asia. It is very
good in China because all mapping Data belongs to Government. It was OK last
time I used it in UK, but failed in many other parts of Europe.

Apple Music - It took them years to add basic thing like lyrics. Songs
Selection were far inferior to Spotify on International Level. Songs are
missing on a yearly License renewal basis. And when they were added back, they
have a different ID so your previous play list don't include them anymore.

Apple Pay - Pay Cash only in US. Many of the Points and Rewards System aren't
even available when using it. They are finally figuring out Transit, but it is
slow process.

Apple News - Outside US?

iMessages - I know many are happy with it. But the system constantly have
issues with Groups where some people don't receive message. Comparatively
Line, KakaoTalk, WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, etc... None of them had any
problems.

