
Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker - t23
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38793253
======
ransom1538
One thing learned from: Volkswagen,airbnb,google,amazon,uber,facebook is to
CHEAT. Illegal hotels, copyright infringement, skipping sales tax, fake
cabs,profiting on personal data.. and now, illegal emission testing.

~~~
gonzo41
This is the logical conclusion when you allow corporations to be 'people'
without the consequences of being a person. How do you send a company to jail?

Its kinda of like that scene in fightclub where Edward Nortons character talks
about the cost of doing a recall.

The emissions scandal should have ended VW.

Solution: Guillotine for corporate crime.

~~~
ams6110
Many people look at emissions testing as an annoyance and I doubt that outside
of environmental circles that very many people cared. And it was diesel car
emissions -- a niche of the US market that's almost invisible anyway.

~~~
hackuser
> I doubt that outside of environmental circles that very many people cared.

Do you have any basis for that? I think most people care about clean air and
support laws and regulations to protect it. The laws did pass; there are
regulatory agencies that are funded.

~~~
megablast
Most people care, unless it means they drive or fly less.

------
NamTaf
For all the criticism about their cheating of metrics and rules, I recently
hired a VW Polo Diesel for a month to drive around Germany, Switzerland,
Belgium and France and found it to be a comfortable, performant, nimble and
all-round decent car. It handled doing 160 down the Autobahn quite comfortably
without steering judder or anything I'd expected at higher speeds. It
accelerated surprisingly well (not even considering it's a diesel!) all the
way up to 100 making entry onto roads and highways a breeze, it had great
steering which helped parking in cramped spots and did well for fuel
efficiency - I was getting about 750km to a (45L, if I recall) tank in a
combination of highway and town driving.

All in all, I think I did something over 5000km in total and it did it
everything I could have asked for. I was quite impressed by it. Compare that
with the Vauxhall I had in England for a couple of days, which was utter
horseshit and struggled to accelerate up a moderate incline at 80 in 4th gear
(I had to put it down to 3rd, rev the hell out of it and even then it was
losing speed up the hill) and I can only say good things about the VW Polo.

~~~
sitkack
All that acceleration is enabled by it violating the environmental laws of
every western country.

~~~
wyager
> violating the environmental laws of every western country.

European nations aren't "western"?

~~~
mehwoot
_European nations aren 't "western"?_

Actually European nations is what it originally meant. Western European.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world)

 _The term originally had a literal geographic meaning. It contrasted Europe
with the cultures and civilizations of the Middle East and North Africa, Sub-
Saharan Africa, South Asia, Southeast Asia, and the remote Far East which
early-modern Europeans saw as the East. In the contemporary cultural meaning,
the phrase Western world includes Europe, as well as many countries of
European colonial origin with substantial European ancestral populations in
the Americas and Oceania._

~~~
wyager
Yes, I didn't realize Volkswagen violated European laws as well. So when he
said "Every western nation", I was confused.

------
hkmurakami
Frankly this is a vanity metric anyways. Toyota's brake recall back around
2010 was directly related to its rapid global production expansion in an
effort to become #1 in sales volume. Their QC and reliability/consistency
across geographies suffered as a result.

Iirc the CEO himself was quoted saying the company lost sight of what should
really matter -- making products that fulfill the needs and desires of their
customers. (sorry, it's been many years so I can't really pull up the source)

When's the last time anyone's said "hey look at this #1 by sales volume car I
just got"?

~~~
kuschku
> Frankly this is a vanity metric anyways.

Not really. The German government (through the federal government, the state
of Lower Saxony, and the investment bank of the council of states) owns a
large share of VW, and so a lot of this money goes directly back into the tax
budget.

~~~
Eric_WVGG
I was sort of wondering why VW wasn't fined to the extent of the value of the
company minus $1, or some similar scheme to effectively nationalize the
company. I guess that wouldn’t accomplish much…

------
eganist
Strategic law-breaking pays off more often than not.

In all seriousness, it shouldn't be much of a surprise given all the
properties VW owns: Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley, SEAT,
etc.

~~~
seizethecheese
The number in question is vehicles sold, so the only relevant brands here are
Volkswagen and Audi, really. Toyota also has Lexus and Scion.

~~~
tikhonj
The cheaper European brands like Skoda and SEAT also likely have significant
volume. Skoda, for example, sold over a million vehicles—a non-trivial 10% of
VW group's total.

Audi sold something like 1.8M, probably with better margins than Skoda, so
it's certainly a more important brand, but SEAT and Skoda aren't trivial
either.

Just in terms of car sales, SEAT + Skoda ≈ Audi.

~~~
usaphp
Seat and skoda are only popular in handful of small European countries, vw is
popular around the globe.

~~~
Shounak
Skodas are quite popular in India

~~~
usaphp
there aren't many cars in India compared to US or even some small European
countries.

~~~
njharman
You are ignorant.
[http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.A995](http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.A995)

India 159m, USA 265m registered vehicles. India is the 6th largest producer of
vehicles.

~~~
usaphp
Vast majority of those are 2 and 3 wheelers, we are not talking about those.

------
jeffnv
I guess the whole 'cheating on the emissions tests' scandal didn't hurt them
too bad. Here I thought it would destroy them. Silly me!

~~~
bshimmin
I'm honestly not sure the public really cared about this - was anyone really
surprised that this was happening? Most people I spoke to at the time seemed
to be of the opinion that all the other manufacturers would be found out next.
My friend bought a Golf the week after the scandal broke; I've bought a Golf
GTI and a Polo in the last six months. They're just, well, pretty decent cars.

~~~
vmarsy
Well in the US, Diesel isn't very popular so the impact won't be as big, but
people in Europe at least are going to rethink about getting Diesel, and the
governments there might reconsider the big tax break they give to diesel
engine which are supposed to be cleaner than gasoline (making diesel cheaper
at the pump than regular gasoline for consumers in Europe).

Now we discovered that it's not only VW, but many car makers, so people aren't
mad at VW as much as they were at the beginning of the Diesel-gate scandal.

I would have boycotted VW for life if they were the only one doing it. I'm
certainly boycotting their diesel engines.

~~~
ams6110
I thought it was only the tyrannically strict California emissions tests that
they cheated on? The cars met standard emissions limits, unless I'm mistaken.
Was it even an issue in Europe? I thought their standards were even more
relaxed.

~~~
joecool1029
You are mistaken on US regulation. They did not meet NOX emission limits in
the US. Europe has stricter fuel regulation, less strict emission regulation
so it was probably cool there. Every TDI model over there is usually tuned for
better performance.

Oh well, my chariot of lies gets bought back in 2 days. Best investment ever
in a car! Since I got my parents and 4 other friends to buy TDI's too when
they saw the mileage I was getting, they are all ecstatic that the cars are
getting bought back at well over market. Imma buy a Chevy Cruze Diesel once
the standard hatchback gets released. Until then I'll find a pre-ban TDI or
maybe some other beater to get me through the year.

Added bonus: They tried to cheat me out of repairing the cheater emission
system that failed just outside of the federal emissions warranty at 60k
miles. I told them if they could program it to cheat, they could program it to
overheat the DPF and cause it to crack and fail. Got a free replacement from
that :)

Added bonus #2: Since I also suggested my parents get one before the scandal
broke, they tried to cheat them out of a AdBlue urea heater (piss tank heater)
claiming it would not be repairable under federal emissions because it wasn't
directly a part of the emissions. The company finally bowed to the massive
number of complaints on tdiclub and related forums and covered that as well.

~~~
scott_karana
So... they screwed you and your family over three times, and you're a happy
customer?

~~~
joecool1029
Don't get me wrong, the above was annoying. But they were forced to pay for it
and I came out ahead. There's no doubt in my mind that my 2012 model still
polluted less than my former 1998 model. There were many times before the
scandal broke that I considered removal of the DPF component to further
improve efficiency. This would not have affected the NOX output, but would
have reduced weight, fuel consumption, and cosmetic appeal. I wasn't keen on
having the car blow raw diesel into the exhaust to regenerate the filter every
few hundred miles. Would have averaged 50mpg instead of mid-40's...

I put over 100k mi on the car and will have received approx $19k for it after
the goodwill + buyback. Total cost of ownership for 4 years of about $6k
excluding fuel which cost about half as much as a gasser (savings was anywhere
between $3-6k). So yeah, pretty happy all things considered.

------
fusiongyro
There's a local dealer who sells VWs and Mazdas. The Mazdas outsell VW 2:1,
but they have 4x as many VW technicians.

I had two VWs: a Jetta and a Passat. Both required an astonishing amount of
maintenance compared to the Toyota Camry I had before. VW has really mastered
the art of "this feels well-engineered" without actually being well-
engineered.

My current car is a Ford Flex and frankly I love it. It's not a perfect car
but so far so good. It has the same solid feel as the VWs did. I hope it turns
out to be more true. I wish the rest of Ford's cars felt as good as the Flex.
Maybe they do, but I didn't want to try a Fiesta or a Taurus.

~~~
pasta
VWs are very unreliable. Every year they end up below avarage in reliability
tests (Honda and Toyota always share the top).

But I think people buy them because they look great.

I owned multiple VWs but never will buy a VW again. And because my Mazda keeps
on going I think I will be a Mazda owner for a long time to come.

~~~
arethuza
Not my experience - we've had 5 VW group cars in the last 15 year or so (VW,
Skoda, Audi) and not one of them has required anything other than regular
servicing.

Now when I had a BMW _that_ was never out of the dealers.

------
animex
I guess people got tired of driving boring cars with high resale value and
luxury cars with missing front-ends. ;-)

~~~
bcaulfield
Yup. I drive a Japanese four-door sedan. It's twelve years old. 156k miles.
Runs great. Paid for. But, yeah, I'm bored.

------
lazyjones
Do VW's numbers include their self-registrations, which make up 30% of their
"sales"? Explanation: [http://dailykanban.com/2014/05/that-car-filled-test-
track-ac...](http://dailykanban.com/2014/05/that-car-filled-test-track-
actually-was-empty-each-time-google-came-checking/) (towards the end).

------
brohoolio
Something like half the sales are in China. They don't sell a diesel there.
Across the rest of the world sales are way down.

They would be way ahead of Toyota if they didn't cheat.

The other thing to remember is that cars are engineered a few years out. It
will be a while before they compromise quality to make up for the large fines.

Cheating doesn't mean you win.

~~~
matt4077
> It will be a while before they compromise quality to make up for the large
> fines.

That's not how business works. Absent an existential threat, their calculus
regarding the quality level required for optimising profit is not influenced
by the fine.

------
wyager
I'm well over 200,000 miles on my '98 Land Cruiser and looking for a
replacement, but frankly, Toyota's current offerings aren't looking too hot...

The 200 series land cruiser is trending towards a suburb-mobile and is
basically unsuited for offroad use, whereas the 70-, 80- and 100-series are
awesome for offroading, even in stock off-the-lot configuration. The 4Runner
is a decent offroad vehicle, but doesn't have the same legendary over-
engineering as the Land Cruiser.

I might just try to keep my 100-series going for another few hundred thousand
miles.

~~~
mulmen
I am disappointed in Toyota's current offerings. Take a look at what is on the
lot today and what was on the lot in 1997. 20 years ago you could pick up a
world-class Supra or a proper Land Cruiser or a Tacoma or a Camry or Corolla
that could practically be the last commuter car you ever need. All of them
stubbornly reliable. many of the cars Toyota had on the lot in 1997 still sell
for close to their retail price!

Today what do you get? I guess the Camry and Corolla are still good cars but
I'm not convinced the reliability is still there. The Prius is "innovative" in
some sense but it isn't the kind of vehicle the Supra and Land Cruiser were.
There doesn't seem to be anything interesting or exciting on the lot from
Toyota anymore.

~~~
patrickk
> 20 years ago you could pick up a world-class Supra or a proper Land Cruiser
> or a Tacoma or a Camry or Corolla that could practically be the last
> commuter car you ever need. All of them stubbornly reliable. many of the
> cars Toyota had on the lot in 1997 still sell for close to their retail
> price!

The mid-90s to early 2000s were a golden era for Japanese cars. I dream of
importing a Nissan Silvia S15[1] with the legendary SR20 engine. It's quite
feasible, especially if you live in a left hand drive country (warning: it's
complicated getting some of these cars into the US[2]). The Skylines of that
era (e.g. the blue and silver one from the Fast and the Furious 2) still sell
for insane money (around €35k-45k last time I checked, depending on the model
and trim), they are really hot items to import from Japan. Also, the Hilux of
the era is virtually indestructible. Top Gear famously demolished a building
with a Hilux perched on top[3], and the engine still worked afterwards.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-bcPNJzwtA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-bcPNJzwtA)

[2]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1627s5/iama_guy_who_i...](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1627s5/iama_guy_who_imports_cars_from_japan_to_canada_ama/)

[3]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWKz7Cthkk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWKz7Cthkk)

~~~
mulmen
Exactly! In a past life I had purchased a 1973 S30 with the intention of
swapping in an LS-1 from an old Camaro, GTO or Corvette. I quickly changed my
mind on that and decided on an RB26DETT because it's still a Nissan motor and
the price isn't much different.

Life happened and that project had to be abandoned but I would really like to
give it a go one of these days. At this point I think the SR20DET is the ideal
motor for an S30.

The RB26 still has a very strong appeal however...

e: If you have not already seen them you may find Doug DeMuro's Skyline
exploits entertaining:
[https://youtu.be/5eFA3cwfR3E](https://youtu.be/5eFA3cwfR3E)

------
p0larboy
I had a Volkswagen Scirocco. That car looks nice and had a reasonable price
range.

But that car was the stuff of nightmares. Just google "scirocco dsg gearbox
problems". I simply cannot imagine why a huge car manufacturer could produce
such a faulty car.

Apparently, scirocco is not the only model to be affected by this.

~~~
chrisper
> I simply cannot imagine why a huge car manufacturer could produce such a
> faulty car.

Sadly, American Car companies create lots of faulty cars as well. Not sure
why.

~~~
closeparen
It might be a good idea to start hoarding Toyotas, if you are so inclined,
before the tariff erases the savings on maintenance and repair.

~~~
adventured
Toyota makes an immense number of vehicles in the US, with American labor.
They'll easily dodge most of the effect of any tariffs.

------
dylanz
I'm on my second Tacoma (sold my first to move overseas) and it has been the
most reliable vehicle I've ever owned. My only VW experience has been a 71 bug
that I'd have to fix on the side of the road once a month, so I can't "really"
speak to VW reliability :)

~~~
samtho
Just to point out that this is purely anecdotal. If you bought the 71 bug in
any other era except for the early 70s, you probably didn't buy it for
exceptional reliability.

------
celerrimus
This is very puzzling for me. You know, volkswagen as volkswagen, they will do
anything to increase profit, but how it's possible that people buy those?
Because it's not that thet they produced more cars, someone buy it. I can't
understand how company having such long miserable history of cheating it's own
customers (one sample, manufacturing defected TFSI engines they refuse to
repair under warranty), and society as a whole (poisoned by deadly particles
that shouldn't be emitted), still is commonly desired.

I was searching for new in 2015, also considering VW, but they were
overpriced, especially if you don't want basic version. After some research we
decided to buy Toyota. They were maybe little delayed in terms of design and
equipment, even slightly old-fashioned. But on the other hand they have long
history of solid reliability. Of cource they have some bummers (like some d4-d
engines), but at least Toyota always tried to fix them, even after warranty.

~~~
d3ckard
>> They are were maybe little delayed in terms of design and equipment, even
slightly old-fashioned.

You answered yourself.

~~~
celerrimus
>>> You answered yourself.

True. But tought that more customers will choose more reliable cars,
especially if future of VW after emission scandal was not so certain.

Last year they updated most models, new RAV4, Avensis, Corolla are much more
suited to current trends. Looks like new C-HR will be popular in it's segment,
so interesting how stats will look this year.

~~~
d3ckard
Asian cars, Japanese in particular, are generally less advanced. They do not
use turbocharged gas engines, have less bells and whistles inside and have
worse design for many European tastes. That's just it.

Of course, there are exceptions - Mazda is considered to look pretty cool
across whole model range. Still, for my use, I much prefer my 1.4 TSI than
whatever I saw available in Asian cars.

Volkswagen cheating was unacceptable and I'm pretty happy they got their asses
handed to them over the issue. At the same time I'm aware that American diesel
regulations are a way to protect your own brands, since Americans don't have
the tech to make their own - you're more gas/hybrid/electric market.

------
pasbesoin
Can't help thinking/believing a fair number of people are going to encounter
this headline in the media and think, "Too big to fail." As in, the fix is in,
for such corporations.

Which will play right into the current political climate.

------
emptyfile
Remember reading comments 3 months ago on HN about how VW will be bankrupt in
15 years and Tesla will be the world's biggest car manufacturer.

