
Vermont will cover $10K of expenses for people who move there and work remotely - swlkr
https://work.qz.com/1289727/vermont-will-pay-you-10000-to-move-there-and-work-remotely/
======
unit91
From the law:

> (3) The Agency shall award grants under the Program on a first-come, first-
> served basis, subject to available funding, as follows: (A) not more than
> $125,000.00 in calendar year 2019...

With such a small budget, it seems like the actual intent may have been to
allocate up to $125K to generate advertising about their state.

[https://legislature.vermont.gov/assets/Documents/2018/Docs/B...](https://legislature.vermont.gov/assets/Documents/2018/Docs/BILLS/S-0094/S-0094%20As%20Passed%20by%20Both%20House%20and%20Senate%20Unofficial.pdf)

~~~
ChuckMcM
As we are talking about living and working in Vermont on a technology focused
news aggregation site, I would call that a success.

Part of the reasoning given in the article is to shore up the "rapidly sinking
tax base" of the state and it reminds me that we don't have a good example of
governments that both grow and shrink based on the economic activity of the
state. That is something that could really help areas remain stable for longer
periods of time I expect.

~~~
intrasight
US governments aren't very good at this - because they don't bank the good
times. How many US governments have "Sovereign wealth funds"?

~~~
s73v3r_
I can guarantee you that states that did would be hammered by anti-tax people
thinking that they were overtaxed.

~~~
zdragnar
To be honest, most "anti-tax" people are fine with the theory, but don't trust
that it will be well managed and, more importantly, preserved for lean times.
Too often surpluses are immediately funneled to special projects that we could
have been better off without.

The "pro-tax" people in my area are also generally against this sort of thing,
because they want nothing more than to take more money and spend it on special
constituencies.

For example, my state passed a sales tax that was sold to us as a way to
better preserve our parks, wild lands and cultural heritage. About 19% has
gone to the DNR, which means less actually went to the stated cause. The rest
is being funneled to art projects that are poorly received and utilized.

Mind you, this is in a state that's very pro-taxation, and otherwise very
liberal.

~~~
empath75
Most anti tax people are just anti taxes on _me_

~~~
zdragnar
So are most pro-tax people, they're just pro-tax-everyone-else. Our governor
is filthy rich, campaigned on raising the taxes on the one percent, and yet
none of the taxes he wanted would have affected his trust fund income. What a
surprise.

------
jackhack
For many, this won't even begin to offset the increase in income and property
taxes from this notoriously high-tax state. Individual or business, you're
likely to pay more.

[http://money.cnn.com/gallery/smallbusiness/2012/10/15/state-...](http://money.cnn.com/gallery/smallbusiness/2012/10/15/state-
taxes/4.html)

>>The income tax has a top rate of 8.95%. This ranks as the sixth-highest in
the U.S., although it only applies to taxpayers making over $413,350 per year.
Meanwhile, total state and local sales taxes range from 6% to 7%.

>>There are five income brackets. The highest marginal rate is 8.95% on any
income over $388,350. That's on top of federal income taxes.

>>Businesses pay an effective property tax rate of 5.27%, the third highest in
the country.

>>At 6%, sales taxes are also on the high side. Meanwhile, those businesses
that pay corporate taxes get hit with an 8.5% rate for any profit made above
$25,000.

~~~
NeutronStar
Can't you deduce state tax from federal income? It's really weird seeing the
US get scared of a 8% tax. Those taxes are services after all.

~~~
mrguyorama
Not (as much, see below) anymore. That was specifically removed by the recent
tax overhaul

The more cynical view is that this was done on purpose to harm blue states
that tend to have higher state income taxes

~~~
leetcrew
> The more cynical view is that this was done on purpose to harm blue states
> that tend to have higher state income taxes

this could very well be true, but it does seem unfair in the first place to be
able to deduct state income tax. it's great that some states have decided to
increase their income taxes to offer more services to their citizens, but why
should tax payers in other states have to subsidize them without receiving any
benefit?

~~~
pwthornton
In general, wealthy higher-tax states subsidize the poorer, lower-tax states.

The argument for the deduction, which has always existed, is to prevent people
from being double taxed. A higher-tax state may tax its citizens to pay for
infrastructure or services, whereas a low-tax state relies on the federal
government to pay for the same stuff. There are tons of people in poverty in a
lot of southern lower-tax states. Who do you think pays for all of the
government services these people need?

The tax plan was specifically designed to harm blue states and to make
residents of blue states pay and even higher, even less balanced share of tax
receipts in the country.

~~~
perl4ever
I would say this is _triple_ taxation. Looking at how "double taxation" is
used to refer to taxing at both corporate and individual level of public
company profits, this is an additional burden _on top_ of a two level system.
Imagine getting taxed _on the amount of taxes_ paid by a company you own
shares of. State and federal levels are "double" in the first place.

Triple is a little hyperbolic, as you could probably best describe it with a
number between 2 and 3 depending on the tax rate.

------
eezurr
I've lived in Burlington, VT for the last two years, having moved from a large
city.

The brain drain is real. I am leaving the state soon because I simply cannot
relate to people and culture up here. (Note, this is for people who are < 35\.
There are a lot more >35 year olds up here with families who I never met).
There's an inverse bell curve of age distribution.

I've discovered slightly above average intelligent people up here think they
are much smarter than they are, due to the people/coworkers they are
surrounded by. I've only met three highly intelligent people in my two years
here. Two of them are also leaving within a year.

It's a shame, because Burlington is easily the most beautiful city I have
lived in. Bike trails boarder the lake and outdoor recreation are all within
an hour's drive. The produce up here is the best I've had (like wow, can't go
back good). The restaurant cuisines up here are diverse and plentiful
(although the quality is lacking for some reason). Everything is so green up
here. The weather is usually great.

It's a place to retire and maybe raise family, if you can handle the snow.
Otherwise, if you're a younger adult with drive and ambition, you will not
enjoy your stay.

~~~
camdenlock
Just curious, what do you mean by “intelligent” here? What kinds of people is
Vermont losing exactly?

~~~
eezurr
Without writing a novel and acknowledging the difficulty it is to measure
intelligence...

People who: /what VT is missing is:

\- Can process what one is saying in real time and propose alternative view
points or point out flaws in one's logic in seconds.

\- Are capable of thinking outside of the box. Some puzzle pieces will never
be found because they need to be created first.

\- Have drive and ambition to do things other than watch TV/go to the
beach/get high or drink after work.

\- Interest in furthering their education/knowledge/life goals. Complacency is
very common.

\- People who are unafraid of their viewpoints being challenged/analyzed;
unafraid to rationalize their beliefs.

\- Self awareness/presence.

In saying all of this, I do not look down on people for their life choices.
They just live a simpler life than I can be comfortable with.

~~~
tothepixel
Wow, I can very much relate to this. I moved to VT 5 years ago, and I just
haven't been able to put my finger on why there's a disparity between my
social life here vs. my former city.

Many people simply talk much slower, drone on, and are not socially aware of
when a conversation becomes one-sided. I'm used to fast talking, quick-witted
New Jersey style conversations. At work I'm often engulfed with these 5 minute
lectures about random garbage that I don't particularly care for.

------
beachwood23
I was raised in Vermont, and moved away to the Philly area for college, and
stayed here because the job opportunities are so much greater in East coast
metro areas.

Vermont is very insecure about its ability to "hold on" to its young people.
Probably for a good reason, because the majority of young persons who remain
in the state after high school are the ones who _only_ graduate from high
school.

I'm interested to see how this scheme works for the state. I'd assume their
goal is to bring college-educated young persons to the state.

~~~
protonimitate
I think it's great remote work is starting to catch on. I think it could help
revitalize a lot of the rural areas just outside of major metro footprints.

I am also born and raised New England, NH and ME could also benefit from this
type of program (although Portland seems to be more up and coming). There's a
lot of really good reasons to escape the Boston bubble, but unfortunately
companies are holding tight to brick and mortar operations in the 'hip'
downtown neighborhoods.

~~~
lotsofpulp
In my experience, proportionally, more smart young people who have the skills
for tech work prefer living in cities with other like minded people. So if you
want to hire them, you have to be there otherwise someone else will employ
them.

~~~
eertami
Then have the office in the city and allow remote work as an option, best of
both?

I've done both, a lot for those smart young people you mention, often lack
hobbies, and those ones are extremely boring. I'd rather remote in from a
mountain town where I can ski, mountain bike and hike than suffer year round
with decreased QoL of a city.

~~~
pavel_lishin
One man's decrease in QoL is another man's increase, when it comes to the
rural/urban distinction.

------
toss1
Vermont is a wonderful natural bucolic place to live.

Unfortunately, I discovered the hard way that the problem they are trying to
solve is likely far more intractable than that program.

I co-founded a software/networking biz in VT some years ago. We really thought
it was great, loved the lifestyle -- e.g., literally step out the door at
lunch for a run or mtn bike in the woods, or walking meetings in the fields or
woods -- just awesome!

We thought it'd be easy to convince others to come up and grow with us.

Wrong.

Ultimately had to move to north of Boston, then grew & sold.

I really wish more people would 'get it', but it just didn't work that way.
Seeing that socialization seems paradoxically more city-oriented now despite
far better connectivity tech, I'm even less optimistic now about it.

I really hope I'm wrong and they can kickstart a tech-in-the-woods common
lifestyle... and at least with this program, a few dozen people will enjoy
some great years there!

~~~
DFHippie
Try one of the towns along the southern Connecticut River valley. You're a
couple of hours from Boston. You can take the train the NYC. You have
urban/college town amenities and culture if you want it. You can walk to
nature if you want it. The schools are good. The traffic is good.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
I lived in one of those towns before moving to Minnesota. It's nice, but not
even close to the same thing.

------
lsalvatore
> Vermont has budgeted grants for about 100 new remote workers in the first
> three years of the program and about 20 additional workers per year for
> every year after

So only 33 people will access this opportunity for next year. And we have to
assume these will be very young people who intend to stay there and repopulate
the state?

------
amichal
I can't resist. We are here with tech jobs waiting.

[http://www.greenriver.com/jobs](http://www.greenriver.com/jobs)

Edit: On the article: COL is similar to Boston in Brattleboro (for the nice
lifestyle that we expect as devs) but in different areas. You need a car for
any real transportation and while rents and house prices are less other things
are more (internet, heat, etc). There are 3-4 cafes not hundreds. There is a
surprising amount of art and theater events and you discover that folks do
some amazing things here in the woods. e.g. Parts for the Mars Rovers were
made 100ft from my desk. My kids can take circus classes from former Circ du
Soleil leads down the street. As a kid I took ski jumping lessons a mile from
here from a Olympic medalist. And folks have weird job histories. The woman
who runs the stables where my daughter takes horse back riding lessons was a
developer on HP-UX in the early days

~~~
fringedgentian
The grant is only for people who work for a company based outside of Vermont.

~~~
amichal
Sigh... That is just absurd. Our company is domiciled here but nearly all our
income comes from outside the state so we provide the same economic benefit.
Even if the state wouldn't pay moving expenses I'm sure we would for the right
candidates.

------
1024core
This sounds more like a publicity stunt than an actual attempt at solving the
problem.

Having said that: I've been to Vermont in the Fall, and it. is. stunning.

~~~
rconti
Having grown up in the Northwest and lived on the West Coast my whole life, I
think my expectations of how beautiful the Northeast would be was a bit skewed
by media/popular culture.

I _really_ enjoyed my first trip to to Boston/Portland/Acadia, but TBH, the
more rural areas felt a lot more like a Disneyland version of nature curated
for tourists from the "big city". It didn't live up to the hype, which I think
is targeted at people who have lived in the hyper-dense-and-flat Boston/DC/NYC
area and nowhere else.

I'm really not trying to dump on the area, it was quite nice, I'm just saying
no more so than most rural places I'm used to. Of the whole trip, frankly,
Portland was my favorite. It felt "just right" in terms of size and culture.

~~~
lenoisV
Burlington is a lot like Portland it's a bit more dense population wise, but
smaller overall.

------
rando444
Article title is misleading. They're offering reimbursement for incurred
expenses, not paying people.

State is offering to cover costs of computer hardware, internet, co-working
rental space, and relocation. (Max $5k/yr)

~~~
3pt14159
Right, but I easily spend $5k/yr for two years on those things. It's
essentially the same thing.

------
josefresco
Reading through these comments, especially about Burlington reminds me that
everything is relative.

Coming from a relatively rural area, Burlington appears to be thriving, tech
savvy and a wonderful place for a young person. I went to school there in the
late 90's and just recently visited with my kids and was blown away by the
growth outside the city downtown. My wife and I both were intrigued at the
idea of living there and wondered if the town/city could support our small
business.

However, reading comments from those used to Boston, San Fran or even those
who have lived IN Burlington paints a very different picture.

I think if you're coming from a rural area, Burlington is a massive upgrade.
However don't expect big-city tech infrastructure or any sort of comparable
startup scene if your benchmark are the East/West tech hubs.

------
Isamu
SF should offer $10K for residents to move to VT.

------
zellyn
$10,000 is less than what Silicon Valley firms will cover just for relocation.
I guess if you're thinking of doing it anyway, it could push you over the
edge. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

~~~
to_bpr
>$10,000 is less than what Silicon Valley firms will cover just for relocation

Not everyone wants to work for SV firm, much less _in_ SV.

~~~
mikestew
Outside of SV, $10K doesn't cover what Microsoft paid to move us to
Redmond...20 years ago. Apples, and oranges, and other fruits in our
comparison, I realize. Point is, unless one were planning on moving there
anyway, $10K doesn't go a long way toward offsetting the expense of picking up
and moving across the country, or even just up the road from Boston.

------
helios893
I have lived in VT my entire adult life, and worked in tech/design. Ever
couple of years I sit down and end up doing a comparison to see what it would
be like to live in say the Bay area or Seattle. It usually comes out the same.
I work remotely and know a bunch of other people who do it as well. It's
totally doable (though bandwidth penetration to rural area's still sucks and
is highly variable.). If you like Vermont, and can handle long winters it's
great place to live, work and play.

------
nathan_f77
This is great. I was really excited until I realized that you have to be a US
citizen. I'd be happy to skip the $10,000 if I could get a work permit or a
green card.

------
PaulHoule
Lots of hills and low population density. I bet it is hard to get good
internet in Vermont. Universal access to broadband would matter more than
anything else.

~~~
dsr_
It's easy if you live quite close to: Burlington, Rutland, Barre, Montpelier,
Winooski, St. Albans

and otherwise a matter of luck.

Those are the top six cities by population, and the top two put together are
about the same as my suburb of Boston. St. Albans is about 30 minutes from
Burlington and an hour and a bit from Montreal; you can get access to culture
and technology, but you'll need to drive.

~~~
volkl48
There's certainly quite a few other areas with decent internet, at least if
you are in the main "town" area. Bennington, WRJ + Norwich come to mind as
other examples I can think of.

But yes, if you are in a random small town or rural area the odds aren't great
for decent internet. (For that matter, that even applies to cell phone
service, lots of dead zones in VT).

------
PakG1
This is interesting. I'm hearing more and more examples of cities are pulling
out more and more stops to attract people. Maybe I was just ignorant about
them before.

Free land if you move to the Yukon to do farming:
[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-canada-farming-
landrights...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-canada-farming-landrights-
idUSKBN1AA27M)

And then there's Shenzhen's peacock plan to attract foreign experts for high-
tech startups, 6 figures USD for individuals who meet certain criteria, and
millions USD for teams: [http://www.china-
briefing.com/news/2017/08/01/incentives-she...](http://www.china-
briefing.com/news/2017/08/01/incentives-shenzhen-attracting-foreign-
talent.html)

~~~
bmelton
Homesteading is an old American tradition dating back to the old land rush.

Even today, there are places in America (and elsewhere) that will give you
land or money if you promise to build a house on it, or turn it into a farm,
or stay there for x number of years, what have you.

------
rpoconn1
_Looks up tax rates for Vermont_ No thanks.

~~~
beauzero
If you are looking for warmer I would suggest Carrollton, GA, Montgomery, AL
or Chattanooga, TN. AL has the second lowest property taxes in the USA and
while not 2015 Detroit cheap it does have 2018 Detroit cheap housing prices.

~~~
saudioger
Unfortunately all of these places are in the south.

------
ErikAugust
I'm a University of Vermont alum, and worked there for several years after
college.

The IT (and "professional") economy is quite weak. There's a couple bigger web
companies, however I know at least one of the biggest off-shores development.

Otherwise, a lot of the professional economy is just satellite of the tourism
industry.

I read recently the superintendent of Burlington schools (Burlington being the
big city in Vermont where the university is located) was traveling to China to
help recruit high school students.

It's a beautiful, mostly rural place - but it's not surprising these
initiatives are being taken.

------
NickM
I've been waiting to see programs like this pop up for a while. Remote workers
are an economic dream for whatever region they end up in. They bring in large
amounts of money from outside the area, spend it locally, pay local taxes,
leave local jobs available for other residents, and generally put less strain
on the local infrastructure since they're not commuting.

It's basically a win from every angle, and I'm surprised more cities and
states don't already have programs like this one.

------
sandworm101
Remote workers are the golden goose for local governments. Working from home
means they aren't commuting, so no increased peak demands on roads or transit.
And they are all 20-somethings who don't need healthcare nor have school-age
children. Like crypto-mining, remote workers sit quietly in their rooms. Feed
them electricity and internet and they generate tax dollars. It's all a myth.
Such people do not exist.

------
MikeGalt
I think I'd rather join the "Free State"ers in NH than move to VT.

------
AYBABTME
10k$ is barely enough to cover the moving cost. What's the incentive here?

------
Moncho6-
Hi I’m interested, I work for USDA I can work at any of the agencies possibly
remote, I’m fully bilingual I have a MPA. My email ariettearana@yahoo.com

------
gwbas1c
(sob)

I just moved for my wife's job. We really like Stowe and wanted to end up
close by.

(I'm tired of moving and won't move again.)

------
jamisteven
Misleading title, but regardless they will need to do alot more than that to
attract a younger populace.

~~~
DFHippie
This maybe isn't the only thing they're doing.

------
subway
Looks like this would almost cover half the increase in income taxes by moving
from WA to VT.

------
Moncho6-
I’m interested I Have an MPA, work with federal government. Let me know
787-517-6858

------
loeg
At 6-7% income tax, you can expect to pay that back in the first year or two.

------
readhn
honestly $10000 is not a lot of money these days to make someone move to a
different state. Make it $50,000-100,000 in tax credits and people will
consider. They have to be more aggressive with their offer in order to have
any decent amount of response.

$10000 does not even buy you a decent cheap car.

------
helios893
vb

------
dsfyu404ed
People seem to be taking for granted that this is a good thing. In the short
term of course attracting highly paid people is a good thing. In the longer
term it's only a benefit if you're the kind of person who looks at Boston and
thinks it's a good, highly functional society.

Most of northern new England looks at Boston/MA and sees high cost of living,
government that micromanages individuals and lots of crime. Having lived in
various places in MA (including Boston) as well as NH, VT and ME I'm inclined
to agree. Boston has jobs and nothing else.

Ask people who grew up in NH, VT, ME what kind of people make the place worse
and they won't say baby boomers with backwards beliefs, blacks, or bigots,
they'll say "Massholes."

Just from living among and talking to people in ME/VT/NH states you'll quickly
get the sense that it's not the material difference that make them like the
place but the cultural ones. Many people choose to live in ME, NH and VT
specifically because they do not have the same busybody, sort of socialist
culture (cut me some slack, it's a nebulous and hard to pin down difference)
as MA.

Trying to be culturally like Boston will be the death of these states.
Seriously, they're biggest industry is tourism and part of the selling point
is culture and image. Part of the "branding" of northern New England is that
it's a land of freedom compared to MA. You can buy beer at the grocery store,
light off fireworks without cops showing up and park a project car on your
lawn without your neighbors trying to get the town to bend an obscure and
irreverent by law to harass you. Whether these differences are material or not
doesn't matter, they're part of the branding. If people wanted to go vacation
in the woods and wanted to do it in MA they could head west on I-90. If people
wanted to go to the beach and do it in MA they could do it on the south-coast
or cape cod.

I could go on and on and on about how to the people in NH/VT/ME the culture is
more important than the money, sure they want money too but you'd be hard
pressed to find someone from one of those states that thinks any amount of
money or economic development is worth letting the place turn into MA.

Yes I know that a lot of you might not be able to relate to this sentiment at
all but encouraging people from MA to move to NH/VT/ME is a very thorny
subject for most people in NH/VT/ME

I get that ~30-something people per year isn't much but it's the sentiment of
"we should be like Boston because money" (which is a prerequisite to "we
should be an attractive place for people with money from Boston to relocate)
is dangerous (yes I know there's nothing stopping people who are from northern
New England but suffering through living in MA because that's where the jobs
are from taking advantage of this program). I think the focus should be on
retaining talent, not importing it.

To all the people mentioning that the CoL in Vermont is fairly high for how
rural it is, well you can thank NY for that. Upstate NY and VT have their CoL
inflated by all the NYC money that wants to have a vacation home or retire
away from the problem. Pretty much any "tourist" destination that an upper
middle class couple with kids can drive to for a weekend will have this issue.
Look at housing land prices in ME and driving time to Boston for example.

~~~
ErikAugust
Vermont won't be like Boston because of a dozen remote workers. The University
does much more to "Jersey" or "Masshole" Vermont, and that doesn't even do
much.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>The University does much more to "Jersey" or "Masshole" Vermont, and that
doesn't even do much.

Agreed about the impact of 30 people being negligible (and some of them will
probably be people who are from VT and want to move back but need a little
extra incentive to kick off the process)

That said, the fact that they're looking to import talent instead of retain
local talent is what annoys me. There's plenty of STEM grads who don't want to
leave northern New England but feel forced to in order to make money.

~~~
ErikAugust
"That said, the fact that they're looking to import talent instead of retain
local talent is what annoys me. There's plenty of STEM grads who don't want to
leave northern New England but feel forced to in order to make money."

Totally - I always felt frustrated and even shocked there wasn't any
organized/concerted effort to do so!

------
ggg9990
Northern New England will have to get its heroin problem under control before
it will be appealing to the “remote programmer moving to rural area for peace
and quiet and lower cost of living.”

~~~
nraynaud
I don't think drug problems have really hindered the gentrification of SF or
NYC. And we are talking way bigger quantities and associated violence than
jobless rednecks in rural Vermont.

~~~
ggg9990
Per capita, it’s much worse in the northeast than in SF or NYC.

[https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/drug_poisoning_mor...](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/drug_poisoning_mortality/drug_poisoning.htm)

