
The Density of Smart People - chanux
http://www.creativeclass.com/creative_class/2010/05/29/the-density-of-smart-people/
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jallmann
I would like to see normalized versions of these nuumbers, eg density-of-
smart-people / population-density. Of course new york city is going to be more
dense than oklahoma city, but TFA tells us nothing about the relative
densities of smart people.

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JeffJenkins
I don't think that's very interesting:

(smart/area) / (population/area) = (smart/population)

I don't really care if the population is more educated if they're really
spread out. Assuming I have some way of selecting people who are smart—which I
definitely do in NYC—I'm going to get to see a lot more of them in a place
with a higher smart density.

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ebiester
What you're missing is that density is meaningless in a Western city. Consider
a city like Tucson, which is really spread out. However, within 30 minutes I
can reach 500,000 people. In Phoenix, you are 30 minutes away from at
approximately 1,500,000 people.

Does that compete with NYC and SF? No. However, density undervalues western
cities and overvalues dense ones. Unfortunately, there's no statistics for
"people with whom you can have coffee within 20 minutes of travel."

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JeffJenkins
What do undervalue and overvalue mean here? Undervalue car travel? I travel by
walking or cycling so the number of people I could reach in a period of time
is almost exclusively a function of how dense the area I'm in is.

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finin
I already knew that many 'smart people' were in fact dense, but it's useful to
know where they congregate.

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boredguy8
It should really be called "The Density of Degree Holders"

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moolave
I agree. It is flattering to a sense of those who live in those top-ranked
areas. But how about "The Density of Feasible Networks That Could Guarantee
Better Livelihood"

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edw519
Cause or effect?

The first thing I thought when I saw the graph was that the cities with the
most college graduates per capita were also the most expensive. Could it be
that college graduates are the only ones who have earned enough to afford
these places?

Also the idea that (CollegeEducation = SmartPeople) is really played out. Many
of the smartest people I know have achieved great things in spite of or
instead of college. Finishing college is as much a matter of determination as
"smartness", whatever that means.

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nazgulnarsil
it's more that level of educational achievement correlates pretty well with
IQ.

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kylec
Not really. Anyone that's a hard worker can get an undergraduate degree, while
there are many brilliant people who, for whatever reason, don't. Undergraduate
degrees better correlate with family income than they do with IQ.

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moultano
One of the two of you should link to an actual study before I'll believe
claims like that.

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sp332
Family income vs SAT scores: 95%
[http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-
and-...](http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and-family-
income/)

SAT vs IQ: 81%
[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W4M-4JDN6DP-1&_user=10&_coverDate=02%2F28%2F2007&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=89c1d5350297eba0dc3187ba1d92f3d4)

I couldn't find information on correlation between IQ and college degrees,
though. My Google-fu is weak.

Edit: a bunch more cool stuff (and sources) at
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Positive_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Positive_correlations_with_IQ)

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moultano
Thanks for the links, though I don't think the numbers are really comparable
since the studies refer to two wholly disjoint populations (US and UK.)

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jemfinch
To be even remotely interesting, these numbers need to be ratios of degree
density over population density. _Of course_ the city with the densest
population in the country (NYC) scores highly. I'd be interested to see the
normalized numbers.

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altano
I thought this too but there are some things of interest since this list isn't
the same as a list of just population density
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density)).

We can infer the percent of the general population of LA and Miami with a
degree is slightly below average, Seattle's above average, etc. You're
basically right though: this list is stupid.

> ratios of degree density over population density

A simpler way of stating it would be what percent of the population has a
degree.

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CapitalistCartr
Interesting; his results pretty accurately follow the startup activity in
cities. San Francisco, New York, Boston. The startup activity difference is
about the square of the spread in his graph, though.

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jazzdev
Really? I don't see much correlation.

Top 5 by degree density: SF, NY, Boston, Washington, Seattle

Top 5 by startup density: SF, Boston, Seattle, NY, Washington

The latter list is from [http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/06/startup-
centers.ht...](http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/06/startup-centers.html)

So, yeah, it's the same 5, but not the same order. I did find it interesting
that those 5 cities all popped out on the first graph of Degree and Population
Density (by City) on the original blog post -
[http://blog.robpitingolo.org/2010/05/where-smart-people-
live...](http://blog.robpitingolo.org/2010/05/where-smart-people-live.html)

So if you have a city over a certain size with a higher percentage of college
grads than would be expected based on population size, then it's likely to be
a startup hub. And the more unexpected the difference, the more significant
the startup activity. Except NY has less than expected college grads, so I
guess at some point overall size still matters.

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orborde
The underlying link was originally submitted here:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1380721>

I don't think this blog post adds much, honestly, but this submission seems to
have mysteriously caught fire while the other thread languished.

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fbailey
I'm not sure that this is true, that you really need density, because density
is not the way humans interact. We interact with networks of social contacts,
now if you virtualize contacts or if you have a higher network density, that
means less people but they are better connected you might be able to
compensate a lower overall density.

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timdellinger
There's also going to be an interesting section of the data around college
towns or major research centers, e.g., Los Alamos or Niskayuna. (I realize the
original author only looked at the top 50 cities.) Does Wolfram Alpha have the
data to do more of this style analysis?

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psyklic
New York City scores second highest here, but in actuality only ~27% of people
have a college degree (US average: ~24%). In San Francisco (the highest score
here) a whopping ~43% have a college degree!

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known
World Average is 51 <http://esa.un.org/unpp/>

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barnaby
Thank you for posting this. As a recent transplant to SF this warms my heart.

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anon114
People have a bizarre sense of price vs value. This guy's self-serving article
on human capital and economic growth is perverted because:

\- America isn't the world, and it is becoming less important in the world as
time goes on. A country with 100% debt:GDP is the last place I'd look for
insight into the relationship between intelligence and economics. I'd be more
inclined to look for valid relationships between intelligence and economics on
a global scale. Better sample size. Less systemic errors.

\- "Smart people of the highly educated sort" wouldn't have the resources to
participate in the Information Society without cheap Microsoft Optical mice
made on the backs of near-slave labour in other countries.

\- Equating the density of human capital solely to educational attainment
density is weak. Do all those MBAs on the walls belonging to High Frequency
Traders on Wall Street really prove they're creating wealth? How about if
they're just promoting and profiting from an economic system that reinforces
the "value" they create until the next bubble bursts?

\- Sustainable growth is more important than growth. You know what else I
think of when I read "San Francisco, NYC, Boston"? Bubbles. Check out the
unsustainable home price appreciation levels in those areas from 198*-2006.
Yeah. Smart/educated.

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starkfist
High frequency traders do not have MBAs.

