
HSBC is killing my business, piece by piece  - larsiusprime
https://medium.com/@photonstorm/hsbc-is-killing-my-business-piece-by-piece-d7f5547f3929
======
woodylondon
I think this is a huge problem and one that is going to continue and get
worse. How is it the banks were the ones at fault, but the customers are
paying for it. They just hide behind AML / Knowing your customer and say talk
to your MP.

I was locked out of internet banking for my business account with Lloyds for
over 3 months due to a technical fault in the way it was setup. Was paid
compensation in the end, but already had moved to another bank. They could not
have cared less.

Some people will say no smoke without fire, but if you read on
moneysavingexpert about people being locked out of their personal accounts for
the same reason. Any transfer that is slightly different from your day to day
will be flagged and risk having your account locked for weeks / months on end.

It happens more than we realise. A bit like winning the lottery, it could be
you :(

The further we go down the road of electronic payments, and a cashless society
it could get really messy.

The only way to solve in the short term is to spread the risk across many
banks, and never keep your money in one place. Keep hold of some cash!

~~~
Retric
I think part of the problem is banks don't make much money from the average
account outside of fees. I would rather banks just charged say 20$ a month and
had actual customer service instead of the mess big banks evolve into.

~~~
cat199
> I think part of the problem is banks don't make much money from the average
> account outside of fees

Umm.. how about 'using your money to fund interest earning loans'?

~~~
raugustinus
And then fund more loans on those loans. Like fractional reserve banking.

~~~
sgroppino
Then package them up and sell them as a triple-A bond. Hey we are getting
somewhere now.

~~~
arcticbull
What could possibly go wrong ^_^

------
bradleyankrom
> Don’t bank with HSBC.

After having similarly-frustrating things happen with my HSBC personal
accounts over the years, I fully support this suggestion. They are awful. They
take extreme steps (suspending accounts, rejecting payments, etc.) without
contacting the customer; when you reach out to them, it's hours of being
passed around before you reach the right person. If you reach a person at all.

~~~
xroche
> Don’t bank with HSBC.

Unless you are a drug cartel, of course.

~~~
travmatt
Then you go into a special category, where you go from fighting to find a
person to talk with, to having banks designed to more easily accommodate your
dropoffs.

~~~
carapace
Oh yeah! I remember that. But it wasn't the banks, it was the boxes the cash
was deposited in.

[http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/outrageous-hsbc-
se...](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/outrageous-hsbc-settlement-
proves-the-drug-war-is-a-joke-20121213)

> Breuer admitted that drug dealers would sometimes come to HSBC's Mexican
> branches and "deposit hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash, in a single
> day, into a single account, using boxes designed to fit the precise
> dimensions of the teller windows."

So lame:

> Though this was not stated explicitly, the government's rationale in not
> pursuing criminal prosecutions against the bank was apparently rooted in
> concerns that putting executives from a "systemically important institution"
> in jail for drug laundering would threaten the stability of the financial
> system.

------
butler14
I think the chap has been incredibly calm about the whole thing. I'd be in my
local branch every day refusing to leave until they take the necessary steps
to re-open the account.

This really struck a nerve with me, as I've had similarly infuriating
experiences with Natwest (though never to the point of my account being
suspended).

Passed from one team to another -- and even witnessing colleagues from
different teams argue with each other, not realising that I wasn't properly on
mute... I wish I had it recorded.

Opening and administrating a simple small business bank account has been the
single most unnecessarily difficult and frustrating thing about starting my
own business.

It's why I'm so passionate about someone FINALLY disrupting the circle jerk of
the mainstream banking industry and the organisational, bureaucratic and
regulatory clusterfuck that it has become.

------
jacquesm
So, immediately get on the horn with your lawyer and have your lawyer on his
letterhead send them a letter and if the response is not to your liking sue
the bastards.

In the meantime set up another account with another bank and make sure all
invoices that are pending but not yet paid are paid into _that_ account and
not into the HSBC account.

Then shift over all the monthly payments to the new account as funds appear.

~~~
woodylondon
Not sure if you're in the US? where that maybe possible. In the UK this is not
that simple. Not even sure how you would sue them, their T&C would cover this
under AML / Knowing your customer legislation. The problem is the knee jerk
reaction from the government on stopping the bank's bad practices without
thinking what happens, in reality, day to day.

~~~
umanwizard
So in the UK it's legal for banks to simply shut down your account and steal
your money, and you have no recourse? Seems hard to believe.

Apparently, from his profile, the guy you responded to is from the
Netherlands.

~~~
djmobley
There's nothing to suggest the Bank have "stolen" OP's money.

~~~
qubex
Actually, and somewhat counter-intuitively, money you put into a bank account
_belongs to the bank_ , as an account-holder you have a _credit_ and they have
_fiduciary duty_ towards you. But in a very fundamental sense the property of
your money has passed to the institution you bank with. They do however have
the duty to make it available you, or rather, do as you instruct them to up to
the value you banked with them.

EDIT: _Foley v Hill_ , the foundational precedent
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foley_v_Hill?wprov=sfti1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foley_v_Hill?wprov=sfti1)

~~~
jacquesm
This is correct, and similar legislation exists in many other jurisdictions.
It is one reason why you want to be somewhat careful with who you bank with.

------
maxehmookau
UK banks are ridiculous and they're hastening their own demise to challenger
banks with attitudes likes this. My bank (Barclays) suspended my account and
blocked my cards after attempting to make a large payment.

It was £2000 to the Student Loans Company. My account was a graduate account.

All of the clever machine learning anti-fraud algorithms in the world couldn't
figure that one out.

Go figure.

~~~
nh2
UK banks seem to be the worst in the world.

I studied in the UK, lots of horror stories to tell:

# Name misspelled 4 times

* Santander: They spelled my name wrong on the debit card, 4 times in a row, with a different misspelling each time. Each time I had to go to the branch and type the correct spelling into a keyboard. They still got it wrong the next time. The 5th card was correct. I was without a working card for 3 months and had to pay everything in cash.

# Locked out after they sent money to somebody else

* Barclays: My flat mate paid me sublet rent. One of the transfer didn't arrive. When he checked, the money was sent to a completely different account number he had never entered (probably an off-by-one error in their code?). He called Barclays to correct the transfer. Instead of fixing the issue, they locked his account for 2 months, he couldn't pay any rent any more, he couldn't receive money from his parents to pay for rent or university fees.

# Ridiculous branch security

* Natwest: I'm at the branch with my friend. We're sitting directly in front of the clerk with her keyboard to her Windows computer in front of her. She unlocks the screen saver, 1-finger-typing the 5-character password (so I knew the password). Then she leaves us in the room alone for 10 minutes, not even locking the screen saver again. Also, the part of the PC where the keyboard is plugged into the USB is directly next to my right leg. It would be very easy to pop in a keylogger without anybody noticing (of course it has already been done: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10322536/Barcla...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10322536/Barclays-hacking-attack-gang-stole-1.3-million-police-say.html) and [http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-santander-arrests/gang-held...](http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-santander-arrests/gang-held-over-audacious-plot-to-take-over-santander-uk-computers-idUKBRE98C08A20130913)). Later she asks my friend for a password. My friend looks at me, I put my fingers into my ears. Afterwards the clerk asks "why did you put your fingers into your ears?". I respond it was so I wouldn't learn my friend's password, obviously. She replies "Oh wow, that's cute!". Such is the qualification and training of those who safeguard your money.

# Preventing my card getting blocked abroad with Jedi tricks

* Santander: I'm abroad in Hungary with my UK debit card being the only one I have with me. After buying an 8£ ticket from ticket machine of the Hungarian public train transport MAV, I get an automated call from Santander to confirm whether a potentially fraudulent payment of 8£ is legit. I confirm. After a short while I receive a text that says my card is now blocked. I call Santander's support. They say my card is blocked because of a fraudulent transaction. I say I just confirmed that this transaction is not fraudulent, please unlock my card. They say "sorry, your card cannot be unlocked it has been marked with a red flag". After being stunned for a moment by this idiocy I say "so what, remove the flag then". "I can't do that Sir, we'll have to send you a new card to your UK address". I lose it with "You will not send me a new card, I am abroad and this card is the only one I can pay with here! You will unlock my card NOW!" (My inner self makes an Obi-Wan-esque hand guesture.) To my surprise, the answer is "OK, I'll check it with my boss", and shortly after "OK, card is unlocked. But we'll send you a new card in one month". I never received a new card.

I've never had any such problems with German and Swiss banks.

~~~
cm2187
It's not just the UK. An example (among many others) in France. I asked my
bank (Societe Generale) to make a transfer to another bank where I also have a
broker account, with the intention to make an investment. Societe Generale
blocks the funds and requests a proof that I will indeed make an investment
before releasing the funds. How do I prove that I am going to buy some stocks
on the market when I receive the funds? It took me a week to convince them the
absurdity of their request.

------
weirdstuff
Reminds me of "Operation Chokepoint" where the U.S. federal government was
able to persuade (not force) banks to cut off firearms dealers from their
accounts in an effort to affect "unsavory businesses".

Another reason why I want to avoid a cashless society, at least in the way
we're heading right now. Scary how quickly banks will cave in to pressure from
the feds before any legal process even begins (if ever).

[http://www.newsmax.com/US/Operation-Choke-Point-federal-
bank...](http://www.newsmax.com/US/Operation-Choke-Point-federal-banks-
businesses/2014/05/28/id/573858/)

~~~
colemannugent
Scary stuff.

Also, can anyone tell me why the other reply to the parent is dead? It was a
completely relevant response that, I assume, was downvoted because it
mentioned something that Trump did in a positive way.

~~~
weirdstuff
I saw that dead comment too and can't figure it out.

------
Spearchucker
I second not dealing with HSBC. They've been fined as mentioned in the
article. They've also lost enormous amounts of data through mismanagement and
to hackers, so have gone to the other extreme of "safeguarding" their data.

I put safeguarding in quotes because a couple years ago I was responsible for
the technical aspects of the acquisition of a small fin. book from HSBC. They
did a lot of absolute dictation of governance hurdles which they "enforced" \-
again the quotes, because they came to our offices and nodded wisely when I
rattled through our list of safeguards. But very clearly didn't understand a
thing about the controls we said we were using. They also didn't ask for any
evidence of the controls. That really surprised me, after all the noise they'd
made leading up to that meeting.

I don't rate them technically at all, so have to wonder what their business
capability is like...

~~~
katet
Not to pick on you particularly (this is just where I got to in the comments)
but who _would_ you recommend instead for others trying to avoid this?
Particularly for the UK, since a lot of the time the HN crowd is US-centric :)

~~~
Silhouette
_Not to pick on you particularly (this is just where I got to in the comments)
but who _would_ you recommend instead for others trying to avoid this?_

This is the problem. There are nightmare stories about basically every major
bank and financial service, and while there are two sides to every story, a
lot of them certainly look like well justified complaints about wildly
inappropriate treatment.

If someone was doing much better, we'd all be using them already. For now, I
can only agree with the general advice many are giving: diversify, so you
never have personal and business with the same organisation, never have all
your essential accounts and cards with the same organisation, and so on.

------
rwmj
I would say (a) open a bank account with someone else and (b) contact someone
from the BBC (eg
[https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qjnv/contact](https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qjnv/contact))
and make a noise.

~~~
jopsen
Yeah, lots of options...

Ombudsman, politicians, media, lawyers, business interest groups...

HN probably isn't local enough.

------
matheweis
When people tell me they don't "get" Bitcoin, this is exactly the sort of
thing I have been looking for to try to explain it. Yes, it has problems and
is still maturing, but no one can inexplicably just off your bank account like
this.

~~~
dmoy
I've got coworkers and a friend who have been contacting coinbase for ~months
because their funds have just disappeared into the ether. Deposited money,
nothing showed up in their account. Apparently it's common, and they're just
supposed to wait longer. I would guess that this is because just like you
said, it has problems and is still maturing. But - doesn't that mean that
coinbase could just off their accounts?

~~~
sowbug
Coinbase is a bridge between dollars and bitcoin. That's why it has all the
AML/KYC hassles of an ordinary bank. Once you cross the bridge, though, your
bitcoin is all under your control.

------
koolba
> Then Apple failed. This was a strange one — it appears you actually need a
> valid payment card associated with your Apple account or you cannot download
> free apps or update existing ones. Every time you try it just asks you to
> re-enter payment details. Not a show-stopper, but frustrating all the same.

Not true. They have a lot of dark patterns to make you think that but you
don't actually need a payment account associated with your Apple ID. It's
possible they've changed this since the last time I tried doing setting one up
but you may need to go through the desktop interface rather than doing it
directly on a iOS device.

~~~
homarp
[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204034](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT204034) is "Learn how you can create or use your Apple ID in the iTunes
Store without a credit card or other payment method."

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201266](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT201266) is "Change or remove your Apple ID payment information"

~~~
megous
Works only in some countries.

~~~
homarp
Can you give more details ?

~~~
megous
You need to have a card associated with the account and can't remove it if
you're in Czechia. Or if it is possible I was not able to find how to do it
after a hour of googling. It's per country requirement.

------
vizzah
At the moment banking is a total disaster. Personal accounts, under KYC
disguise, are being questioned on "suspicious" £2-3k transactions sent between
family members. Banks fraud altering systems are so inconceivably dumb, that
they can't recognize two persons both having bank accounts at their same
institution, both living on the same address as being part of a household, not
to bother questioning them why they send cash to each other.(Lloyds Bank, UK).

Business banking is getting totally destroyed by fanatical and full of
nonsense administration of KYC regulations, where banks want to verify not
only the invoices and reasons for every transaction, but the underlying
composition of every amount and how it was earned and why. And why the sum
earned is higher, than what they think it should be. Their reviews of business
models and revenue generation processes is more strict and intruding, than the
figures some investors consider enough to provide business with
funding.(Rietumu bank, Latvia).

At the same time many large European banks are losing their ability to
transact in USD, after bank-correspondents are leaving them (Deutsche bank).
SEPA transfers in EUR is what is left for many businesses as they are cut from
making any international payments in non-EUR currency.

The situation is beyond worrying. I hope there are some sane banks left.
Possibly smaller banks, friendly to online businesses, who realize that when
you receive affiliate payments from Booking.com NV, you are not laundering
money and it would be totally moronic to questions those transfers. Please
comment if you can recommend such.

------
forcer
The story is very similar to what we experienced with HSBC exactly year ago.
Its wrong on so many levels, in our case they sent us money via cheque so we
got access to it in about 2 months. There is no point discussing anything with
them, you are a small fish and have a business to run, not suing a bank or
losing your focus on your main business.

Since HSBC kicked us out we have multiple banks and if things go wrong we just
move to another one.

------
webbrahmin
I am from India. A startup I was part of also had a bad experience with the
bank. I can't go into the details but the bottom line is that the bank branch
where we had our account was absolutely uncooperative. The problem was
resolved after many days of mail writing, talking to phone banking and running
after the branch people.

------
shermozle
"what it was really doing was checking I’m not a drug cartel or rogue nation."

If they decide you are a drug cartel or rogue nation, you will be upgraded to
Most Favoured Customer status and assigned a personal account manager. If
requested the dimensions for the aperture of teller windows will be provided
so you can custom manufacture boxes to fit the maximum amount of dirty cash
through them in the shortest time possible.

------
ig1
You'll get the same treatment with the anti-fraud/kyc team at any bank. It's
standard procedure to not disclose reasoning because it essentially helps
fraudsters/criminals avoid checks.

There can also be legal restrictions on what they can tell you. For example if
they think you're committing money laundering it can be a criminal offence
("tipping off") for them to tell you that why they're investigating you.

It might also not even be directly about your business, if for example one of
your counter-parties (customer/supplier) is subject to criminal investigation
it could result in you getting flagged up as a related party.

It sucks when it happens but unfortunately it's a reality at every bank.

------
ksec
Slightly Off Topic: The other thing i notice is how we are dependent on
"Monthly" services and subscription. iCloud, Photoshop etc. A lot of these
could have been a product that you buy it one off.

~~~
jaclaz
Exactly.

An aspect of SaaS that needs to be considered.

------
richardknop
What a horror story. I also have a business bank account in UK and after
reading this article I immediately went and paid myself a hefty dividend just
in case something like this happened. I will try to keep balance in the
business bank account low, just enough to pay corporation tax, VAT and salary.

------
tweedledee
This is an intentional strategy to increase the 'cost of regulation' so they
can lobby against it and go back to accepting shoeboxes of cash through
deposit windows.

~~~
jopsen
Or they want to get rid of a business that doesn't borrow money...

There is no money in banking services if they can't charge you extravagant
fees.

It's ironic :)

~~~
MichaelDickens
If you deposit money into a bank, they can lend out that money and earn
interest. They don't need to charge you fees to make money from your deposits.

~~~
dx034
With current regulation they get punished for taking business deposits.
Deposits from retail clients are "sticky", so can be realiably used for loans.
Business deposits fluctuate so that the bank has to keep a large share as cash
at negative interest rates.

------
petercooper
We were just about to move our business banking over to HSBC, but this is
appalling. I'm going to bring this up with the people we're dealing with and
politely decline to go any further with the process for now.

------
atemerev
Ironically, I know use Bitcoin and Bitcoin-linked debit cards to pay for
Github, Amazon and the rest. Much easier than having all these calls from
banks, and for less than 2000 €/month, KYC is very relaxed.

~~~
9to5isdead
what btc-linked debit cards do you use if you don't mind me asking?

~~~
atemerev
Bitwala

------
_Codemonkeyism
Hear, hear

"PayPal, thank you. Your support was fantastic. I only wish HSBC were more
like you."

~~~
sireat
You know your bank is horrible when Paypal has the better support.

Over the years here on HN we have heard a number of Paypal horror stories but
it seems Paypal is somewhat responsive.

Personally, I've had two lockdowns on my small time Paypal account(in 17
years) and in both cases I was able to resolve the matter within a few days.
Both times involved faxing some information to them...

------
enscr
This happened to a friend a few months ago. He has a SaaS business, working
remotely out of France (uses Stripe + US bank accounts as he lived in US for
sometime).

One day suddenly, he got locked out of his bank account (a major US bank) and
the only way to restore the access was to walk into a branch physically. This
meant dropping all work and flying to US at a day's notice, assuming you are
granted a Visa. He was fortunate that the customer service listened (though
they were not the politest people on the planet). After jumping a few hoops
and following some unconventional methods of verification, the access was
restored, but the situation was scary for a few days.

------
ajmurmann
More hidden cost from the war on drugs. What does it take to finally try to
find another solution or arrangement?! I guess value voters in the US will
never give up on this and we will live with this silly bootleggers and
Baptists problem forever...

------
edshiro
This sucks. I've recently started contracting in the UK and opened a business
bank account with HSBC. I was initially tempted by Tide
([https://www.tide.co/](https://www.tide.co/)), a new entrant with an
attractive business banking product, but unfortunately they are not covered by
the Financial Services Compensation Scheme, so I thought twice... Maybe I
should still open an account with them just in case... Wonder if anyone here
has tried Tide here?

~~~
sthen
FSCS is to give (limited) protection from a bank's bad investment/lending
decisions. Tide operate using an emoney license which requires deposits to be
held in a ring-fenced account and doesn't allow them to be lent/invested in
that way. I'd be interested in other opinions but my understanding is that the
risk FSCS protects against in the case of a bank can't happen under an emoney
license anyway.

(FSCS doesn't protect you from the problem this article was about either, and
that seems much more likely to happen than one of the large banks being
allowed to fail..)

Their accounts are super easy to setup, if their fee structure fits how you
work then it's probably worth having one even if it's "just in case" to keep
your options open.

------
namelost
Presumably HSBC objects to a for-profit business running a patreon &
donations. I can see how from a bank's perspective that could look like
something illegal is going on.

~~~
daemin
It could be the tax office, since getting money from Patreon (and also
Kickstarter) counts as taxable income.

~~~
isostatic
As a business with an accountant I would assume all applicable income and
expenses are recorded correctly

------
JohnTHaller
I had to fight with Citibank for about 3 months to get them not to suspend my
business account after I'd been a customer for 10 years due to the new "know
your customer" bs. The "know your customer" regulations are about as anti-
small business as they can be. Doesn't matter that you have an LLC in the
State of NY that's been active for 17 years, we won't let you keep your
account without a signed and notarized letter from your accountant or lawyer
stating exactly what your business and income is from. Doesn't matter if you
don't have a lawyer or accountant because you handle it yourself via thinks
like Quickbooks, go pay one a couple grand to look through your books for the
last 10 years and then sign the notarized letter.

If you're having trouble with an HSBC or Citibank, try a smaller bank or a
credit union. They'll generally have policies catering more to the local
market. The local credit union had no such issues like above. A smaller bank
like TD Bank just wanted to make sure you were registered with the state and
do a premises visit (and visiting your apt/home was also acceptable for home-
based businesses).

------
woodylondon
Another example of UK banking going wrong is the story of a number of
companies including a Noel Edmunds (deal or deal fame) that went under after
massive fraud caused "allegedly" by bank staff!

[https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/25/noel-
edmond...](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/25/noel-edmonds-
compensation-claim-hbos-lloyds)

------
slowwwclap
Fuck them. Move on. You are perpetuating this mess.

Businesses do periodically change banks or account numbers if their account
has been compromised by fraud. (This recently happened to my family's business
bank account... fraudulent checks were produced - so we created a new checking
account.)

You can re-automate all your payments within a day or two on your new account
with your NEW BANK. The silver lining is you can assess all these monthly
charges - and possibly cut some unneeded services - or upgrade some which you
would benefit from.

MOST IMPORTANTLY - Find a bank that is headquartered locally - so you can go
see the people who work at the bank occasionally - build relationships - and
avoid this type of abuse. If the local bank is sold to a bigger bank - jump
ship again.

This sounds like a toxic business relationship and your only TEMPORARY loss is
the cash they are holding in your account. You should have access to emergency
funds in another bank account - and if you don't - learn that lesson now.

You are ultimately responsible for everything and service providers are just
that - service providers. Learn to fire and hire them as often as needed.

------
zwetan
> The only way to solve in the short term is to spread the risk across many
> banks, and never keep your money in one place.

not only banks, you also have paypal, prepaid cards, etc.

and not only "short term"

eg. always avoid the "single point of failure"

the real infuriating part here is that those problems occur on a business
account (not a personal account), if you pay extra for business you should get
extra/faster service/resolution.

------
neom
HSBC has been an awful bank. My biggest startup regret.

------
TheVinous
I just can't believe this can happen in 2017... like if we were in the 90s.
HSBC doesn't have a clue how a business works nowadays.

------
inovica
Hi. I run SourceGuardian.com. Today I had exactly the same experience!! Whilst
I was in the States for 5 weeks I tried to log in to my online banking and
received the same message. I just presumed it was their security system
recognising I was in the USA and therefore I decided to deal with it when
home. Arrived back and made a call, but was told I needed to go to a brand.
Went to a branch and they told me they could not help. Eventually I went to
another branch and found a sympathetic business manager. Finally I talked with
HSBC on the phone again but they say that I must do another call with them,
despite me doing one already. My story is exactly the same although I'm just
starting - already I have had payments denied and have been told that all
funds have been frozen. Of course they're accepting deposits, I just can't
take any money out!! Its a nightmare. Tomorrow I am going to see what I can do
and who I can call to try to resolve this.

------
SJoelKatz
This was the entirely predictable result of regulations on financial
institutions that have become more and more idiotic. Imagine if we had decided
to fight drug dealers and terrorism by prohibiting any restaurant or grocery
store from knowingly selling food to drug dealers and terrorists. We would see
this same nonsense with food that we see with finance.

If we're going to fight drug dealers and terrorists, it shouldn't be by trying
to push them to the fringes of our financial system, it should be putting them
in jail.

[https://steemit.com/politics/@joelkatz/the-war-on-
cash](https://steemit.com/politics/@joelkatz/the-war-on-cash)

------
BrandoElFollito
There is something magical in how people are attached to their bank, at least
here in France (but it looks from the article that this is the same in the
UK). Just switch banks!

I never payed for a bank account (in several countries where I had an account
while living there). When Credit Mutuel decided to do my free account, I went
to them and told them that either they go back or I leave. They did not
believe me so I left on the spot.

It is so simple today to change that it should be like changing the brand of
cereals. I am now with a bank which just works and very happy, one just needs
to try until they get the right one.

------
jlebrech
don't bank with someone who's been caught money laundering, as they'll treat
all their customers like criminals.

~~~
joering2
I think its worse than that. There were gladly providing business to companies
that ended up being criminal enterprises laundrying hundreds of millions -
they knew and were helping along the way. So if the OP had millions of USD
revenue he would have gotten top notch customer support from HSBC; since he
doesn't...

~~~
sbov
Plausible deniability if they get their hand caught again? "We suspend
thousands of accounts for suspicious behavior, a few are going to get
through".

------
lobo_tuerto
Amazon does the same thing, once they lock up your account there is nothing
much you can do except make a lot of noise and hope you'll be heard.

I had a horrible experience with a buyer account, they locked it up, and I
didn't even receive a notification about it (I thought it was hacked...). The
problem is that I had some packages on their way and I could not access any
tracking info, etc.

After a couple of distressing days, access got restored with no explanation as
to why it was locked in the first place, and I still have to hear from them
what happened.

------
tchaffee
I have had bad experiences as a Barclays customer. Not as bad as what was
described in this article, but things that would be unacceptable at even the
worst American bank. I really get the feeling that banks in the UK only
begrudgingly provide retail banking. And commercial banking for smaller
businesses falls under that umbrella too. I don't have any hard evidence, but
I would have to guess their real profits are in other banking sectors like
investment banking, or with their bigger commercial accounts.

------
willmacdonald
I left HSBC and have been much happier with Bank Of Scotland small business
account.

I also get the feeling HSBC would like it if you were in debt, or had a loan.
At least they would be making money from you!

~~~
cat199
> At least they would be making money from you!

Banks use deposits to fund loans to other customers.

If you are depositing money in a bank, they are automatically making money off
of you.

------
dandare
At this point, I believe they harras the small customers to cover up the real
corruption.

In the meantime: (UK at centre of secret $3bn Azerbaijani money laundering and
lobbying scheme)[[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/04/uk-at-
centre-o...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/04/uk-at-centre-of-
secret-3bn-azerbaijani-money-laundering-and-lobbying-scheme)]

------
golemotron
The horrible thing is that if you do maintain several business accounts and
aren't careful about how you handle transfers between them you could be
accused of structuring.

~~~
tome
Structuring?

~~~
dllthomas
Structuring is arranging your transactions with the intent of avoid additional
oversight that would otherwise be required by law.

For instance, if you know there's a rule that says every transaction over $X
must be reported, so you split your $(3X) deposit into three separate deposits
of size $X.

------
rdiddly
Yet another example of the sad state of affairs that engaging companies or
governments directly through their established, official channels no longer
works as well as going (or threatening to go) to Twitter with it.

Is it acceptable that a Twitter account and the ability to publicly Twitter-
shame is a prerequisite for decent service? Is it acceptable that it's a
prerequisite for democracy? It seems utterly ridiculous to me.

------
rbp
I had a somewhat similar experience with Chase - account locked without
notice, wouldn't tell me what was wrong, couldn't get paid by clients. The
only way I was able to solve the problem was physically flying to the US and
proving my identity (again) in person. Fortunately my credit card was through
a different bank so didn't lose access to third party services.

------
thrownAway09876
As a tech business owner, I learned the hard way that you must pick a bank to
match your business. If you are a small shop, don't bank with large banks.
Find a local / regional bank, go physically there, develop a relationship with
the bank. You have absolutely no financial leverage and no meaningful
relationship with a large bank and that's not in the best interest to your
business.

------
quadrangle
Admittedly tangential but

> I’m just another failed bank card to them, draining their systems.

Well, you're not draining Adobe. You're running Photoshop locally, so you
aren't costing them any bandwidth, unlike most of those other services.

That rental model for software you run locally is even worse than most
proprietary models. If Adobe weren't effectively a monopoly, I'd hope people
would reject this nonsense.

------
javiramos
Does the UK have the equivalent of credit unions? I moved to a credit union
about 5 years ago and it turned out to be a great decision (if you have simple
banking needs). I know all the tellers at my local branch and if I have a
serious issue, I can just talk directly to the CEO.

~~~
TorKlingberg
There are "Building Societies". They are mostly like banks but tend to be more
local.

------
benmmurphy
this is the problem with these regulations. i think know your customer is a
good idea and the banks should be collecting this information but they
shouldn't be responsible for making the decision. this should be a legal
process run by the state.

what you are seeing is what happens when due process is bypassed. if every
bank follows the rules in a similar way and there is a good chance they do
because they are acting in a way that is mandated by law then you can be
effectively locked out of the banking system. you are being punished even
though you have not been convicted of any crime by a court of law.

i don't know what the solution is because the current implementation is quite
efficient. but it does mean more innocent people are going to get burned.

------
nfriedly
Wow, so bad they make PayPal look good!

I have my business accounts with my local credit union[1] and would never
recommend a bank - any bank - if you could possibly avoid it.

[1]: [https://www.wpcu.coop/](https://www.wpcu.coop/)

------
cm2187
As a banker, I am the first agree that banks offer an absolutely shit service,
and the story in this article is only too common. But one should keep in mind
that this is the direct consequence of over-regulation.

Regulations creates massive barriers to entry, through the complexity of the
laws and regulation banks have to deal with and the amount of capital required
to open a bank. As a result, no competition, and therefore the sort of
monopolistic behavior that you normally observe in nationalized industries,
where your bank doesn't give a shit whether you are satisfied or not.

In addition to that, most western countries deputized the banks to act as law
enforcement under the threat of multi-billion fines. For certain banks, pretty
much all profits from the past 5-7y have been nationalized through fines. As a
business, banks will go to any extremity for these fines to cease, even it it
means burning a few clients (or employees).

We must like the consequences of what we wish for.

------
tedmc
Porter's Five Forces. Never let a single organization be a supplier for 100%
of critical infrastructure. As I write this, I'm reminded it's been a while
since I've looked through everything to make sure I'm not.

------
JohnnyConatus
Chase suspended my companies' account for largely the same reasons FYI. I
highly recommend moving to a bank where you can have an actual personal
relationship with your banker.

I haven't used SVB but it can't be worse than the big banks.

~~~
rbp
I had a relationship with my Chase banker but my business account was still
frozen without notice. To restore access I needed to physically fly to the US
and prove my identity again. To minimize this risk in future I opened accounts
with multiple banks and split my transactions between them.

------
erikb
If you interact with such a bigger company than your own it is normal that
things can take 6-12 months. It's a good opportunity to harden your business
against it. Nobody likes to do that, but if you want to survive you have to.

------
joemi
I swore off HSBC years ago when they wronged me. Short version: They sold my
account to another bank (!) that had a nearest branch 100+ miles away(!), and
wouldn't let me opt out or close my account before the transfer!

Long version:

I had a personal (not company) bank account with HSBC, but the closed my local
branch and informed me that my account would be transferred to a different
bank. I had no idea they could do that, especially since HSBC itself wasn't
closing. But it gets worse: The nearest branch of the bank they would transfer
my account to was not even within my state but the next state over, 100+ miles
away, and I don't own a car. So that would not do, at all.

I saw received a notification about this just a few days before the transfer
would happen. I went to an HSBC branch to ask about it and found out they
supposedly had sent an opt out form a month or two earlier, which I never
received. The only thing I got was what they sent a few days before the
switch, which included "welcome to your new bank" material. Since the switch
hadn't happened yet, I asked to opt out, and was told that wasn't possible. So
then I asked to close my account, and was told they couldn't do that! My
account was still and HSBC account, but they refused to let me close my
account! The branch manager told me I had to close my account with the new
bank after the transfer. I could not comprehend how I was standing in an HSBC
bank, with an HSBC account, and they would not let me close my account. Made
no sense to me at all. So I did the only thing left I could think of: I
withdrew all of my money in that account and opened up a new bank account with
another bank down the road.

I called the bank that HSBC had sold my account to to cancel the account, but
they wouldn't let me since it wasn't their account yet (of course). So I
waited a few days and called them again to cancel the account. They wouldn't
let me. I was told I had to go to a bank branch and cancel it in person. I
explained the whole situation about the unstoppable account transfer and the
fact that I was not going to rent a car and travel 100+ miles just to cancel
an account with no money in it (which I needed to cancel since they would
charge low-balance fees). And I was told the same thing. I ended up having to
call them several times over the course of the next few days before I managed
to get them to cancel my account and undo the low-balance fees I was charged.
About a week later I had the paper documentation of account closure that I
made them send me, thereby finally ending my tale and cementing HSBC as a
company I will never ever do business with again in any fashion.

------
rburhum
Go to a lawyer right now and pay for him to draft a letter that you will sue
for damages if they dont resolve this by the end of the week. Send it to legal
and watch how quickly they solve it

------
jgalt212
it blows my mind that basically any financial crime committed by a big shop
results in a fine (and more regulation/compliance) instead of jail time for
the bad actors.

of course, if the crime is committed by a penny ante fraudster, then the DOJ
is not afraid to put them in jail.

[https://www.amazon.com/Chickenshit-Club-Justice-
Department-C...](https://www.amazon.com/Chickenshit-Club-Justice-Department-
Criminals/dp/1501121367)

------
amelius
Reminds me of those horror stories about PayPal.

You can always start a website like this one:

[http://www.paypalsucks.com/](http://www.paypalsucks.com/)

~~~
hesselink
The interesting thing is that he thanks PayPal for their help in this case.

------
libeclipse
There better be some serious god damned compensation for that company at the
end of this. Jesus Christ, I wouldn't even know where to start in estimating
the damages.

------
hartator
> but I appreciate they had to check

Nah, you shouldn't. "Know your customers" is BS, restrain your freedoms, and
don't stop real frauders.

------
anonu
This is a byproduct of HSBC's deferred prosecution agreement with the DoJ...
They are overly cautious on pretty much everything.

------
hartator
Now your account has been restored, empty it out and fund another account in
another bank. HSBC is one of the worst bank.

------
Arathorn
Does anyone have a datapoint on whether Barclays ever misbehaves like this for
small business banking accounts?

~~~
dnh44
I had my business account frozen by Barclays for similar reasons but they
responded quickly and had me up and running again quickly. Basically I had an
international customer making cash payments directly into my account at
Barclays branches in the UK (I think he used some kind of underground
international payments system). After a few times I got locked out of my
account. They tried telling me it was an IT error. They opened the account
back up in about a week but I was on the phone with them every day.

I now have multiple bank accounts and a currency broker that I also use like a
bank.

Oddly enough I tried to open an account with HSBC after that but because I've
got a couple customers in "naughty" countries they refused to open the
account. Their attitude makes a total mockery of all the advertising they seem
to have plastered around at airports all over the world.

~~~
dx034
> I now have multiple bank accounts and a currency broker that I also use like
> a bank.

Transferwise? Any experience with that? Their offering sounds interesting.

~~~
dnh44
I use CurrencyFair and am very happy with them. Transferwise are a bit cheaper
but they since have VC money and are likely to be cheap only temporarily I
haven't tried them out.

------
koonsolo
Be your own bank ;). Another nice use case for bitcoin.

------
qubex
HSBC — _Highly Suspicious Banking Corporation_

------
bnastic
Just go to Cater Allen next time, thank me later.

------
scandox
> Then Apple failed. This was a strange one — it appears you actually need a
> valid payment card associated with your Apple account or you cannot download
> free apps or update existing ones.

I've always found this to be an issue that makes using a MAC a non-starter for
me. I observed when I first got one (cast off) and it really puts me off.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Can anyone verify if this is true? I know it was in the past but AFAIK when
the App Store took off they removed this restriction allowing you to select
'none' as payment method and still download free apps (otherwise at the time a
lot of iPod Touch customers - i.e. kids/teenagers - would not be able to have
use their products). The 'none' option still exists so I don't see why you
couldn't download free apps with that selected.

------
lushn
I'm not entirely clear why the author felt it was a productive use of his time
to write several thousand words on this. HSBC aren't likely to be swayed by
such an article. They've been fined billions, they're probably not worried
about being "called out".

First of all:

Why are you depending on only one bank account to run your business? It's very
easy to set up two or more business bank accounts and use them both. Just like
you have back-ups for your data (right?), it makes a lot of sense to also have
financial back-ups for your business.

Same with the debit/credit card - is that all you've got for business
payments? Why don't you have more than one card? Why don't you move things
over to a personal card while you open a second business card?

It's too late for that now as the author didn't set that all up ahead of time,
but instead of complaining on the internet, why don't they start moving things
ASAP. I've found Santander incredibly easy to get up and running with (same
day almost), compared to Barclays...etc.

Look, you're running a business, and your job running a business is to keep it
running. If you haven't thought ahead to such possible events, you're doing
your business a disservice.

So my advice - call Santander, start switching things over, stop broadcasting
things online, and focus on keeping your business running. You can always do a
recap later once things have died down.

And I agree, HSBC are a complete PITA. It's far too much trouble even getting
a personal account with them, so a business account would be far more effort
than I would be looking for.

Even Barclays wanted an in-person meeting (even though I've banked with them
for decades) to open a business bank account. And the only date they had
available was a month in the future. Yup, I cancelled that appointment.

So, build redundancy into your business. At the very least a second bank
account. It's easy, but as you can see, so very important. Just IMHO.

~~~
larsiusprime
Warning others from making the same mistake is extremely valuable.

Also please don't kick people when they're down. You probably wouldn't have
gotten caught by this issue but I'm sure you have your own blind spots in
other areas.

~~~
ruleabidinguser
You will literally never see someone working at a successful business write
something like this. Wonder why...

~~~
sctb
This account has been making way too many unsubstantive and/or uncivil
comments. Please stop.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

