
WikiLeaks: “Hillary Emails: Google Tried to Boost Assad Defections” - paganel
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/711135400983699456
======
gpm
Lots of people here are talking about skewing search results, but it doesn't
seem like we have any evidence Google did that. All the email says they did
was create a tool to visualize data, and give it to the press.

The article linked talks about a few other things Google did, but the closest
they get to manipulating search results is putting “Live! Secretary Kerry
answers questions on Syria. Today via Hangout at 2pm ET.” on the homepage
below the search box. A politically neutral statement advertising a unique
source of (biased) information, and their own product. This is the moral
equivalent of reddit advertising an AMA with Obama, or Elon Musk as far as I
can see.

~~~
nostrademons
This was a very different branch of Google than Search. The email was from
Jared Cohen, who I had to look up to verify that he even worked at Google
(apparently, he left the State Department in 2010 to become a director at
Google Ideas). I never saw so much as an email or presentation while I was at
Google; my understanding is that he operated in a siloed part of Google (now
Alphabet) whose mission specifically was to spread democracy across the world:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigsaw_(company)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigsaw_\(company\))

~~~
tamana
"Google Ideas" is a rather creepy name for a company whose mission is
international propaganda. I guess it's good thhey changed it to Jigsaw to
reduce tarnish to the Google brand.

Funny that Alphabet sold Boston Dynamics because people think robots are
scary, but doesn't mind keeping the international intrigue division.

------
DominikR
I believe that this kind of behaviour will be the reason why the Internet as
we know it and are used to it will end some day.

We will have many island solutions with firewalls around them just to prevent
foreign powers from interfering in internal political processes.

For example I certainly do not like what Erdogan is doing in Turkey (cutting
off Facebook and Twitter), but is he wrong when he is accusing foreign powers
from trying to incite demonstrations or manipulate public opinion? I'm pretty
sure he is not.

Same goes for China, Russia and all the other countries that are implementing
or already have finished implementing their own great firewall.

There is no reason in the world why any country should ever accept this. (I
doubt the US would ever accept China doing this to them)

But there are also serious internal problems. For one Google could influence
the US presidential elections by skewing search results and making certain
candidates look bad and others good.

I'm sure almost 100% of Google employees would never support such a thing, but
when Google does this regarding Syria you can't really be sure that they
wouldn't do this internally too.

~~~
merpnderp
"I'm sure almost 100% of Google employees would never support such a thing..."

Even to stop Trump? I'm betting quite a few employees, especially at the top,
wouldn't mind tweaking things to stop what they see as a very real threat.

~~~
wyldfire
Trump's pretty bad IMO, but worst case scenario he'd only be the president.
There's really good checks against the president's power. The unfortunate
(glaring) exception being that we've somehow lost track of the bit about
Congress being the only one who can execute a declaration of war.

~~~
deciplex
A lot of those "checks" are just things that Presidents historically don't do,
not that they're prohibited from doing so by the Constitution. Even then, it's
not clear that Trump really gives a shit about the Constitution. Like all
contemporary Presidents he would decide what he wants to do _first_ and then
have his lawyers provide some veneer of constitutionality to it, but in
Trump's case the bar for such would probably be really, really low.

He's already mentioned going after news outlets that criticize him. What else
can the President do? Can he instruct the military/NSA to spy on every sitting
Congressman and Senator, and blackmail them? That's not explicitly
unconstitutional, and these days "explicitly unconstitutional" seems to be the
only thing that matters (i.e. unless the Constitution actually says you can't
do a thing, then you can do that thing). What are the President's actual
powers during a time of war, especially if the theater is in America itself?
Can he mobilize the military in response to a domestic terrorist attack, and
if so what sort of plenary power does he have domestically?

And the more important question, really, is not "what does the Constitution
say" but rather "what are the American people ready for"? If Trump does become
President, the answer would seem to be "quite a lot of really scary shit".

------
mgraczyk
The map discussed in the email, for those interested.

[http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/syriadefections...](http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/syriadefections/2012730840348158.html?utm_content=automate&utm_campaign=Trial6&utm_source=NewSocialFlow&utm_term=plustweets&utm_medium=MasterAccount)

~~~
gbuk2013
"In collaboration with: movements.org" \- in Assange's article[1] about his
meeting with Eric Schmidt he mentions:

\---

Gen Next also backs an NGO, launched by Cohen toward the end of his State
Department tenure, for bringing internet-based global “pro-democracy
activists” into the US foreign relations patronage network. The group
originated as the “Alliance of Youth Movements” with an inaugural summit in
New York City in 2008 funded by the State Department and encrusted with the
logos of corporate sponsors.

[...]

In 2011, the Alliance of Youth Movements rebranded as “Movements.org.” In 2012
Movements.org became a division of “Advancing Human Rights,” a new NGO set up
by Robert L. Bernstein after he resigned from Human Rights Watch (which he had
originally founded) because he felt it should not cover Israeli and US human
rights abuses. Advancing Human Rights aims to right Human Rights Watch’s wrong
by focusing exclusively on “dictatorships.” Cohen stated that the merger of
his Movements.org outfit with Advancing Human Rights was “irresistible,”
pointing to the latter’s “phenomenal network of cyberactivists in the Middle
East and North Africa.” He then joined the Advancing Human Rights board, which
also includes Richard Kemp, the former commander of British forces in occupied
Afghanistan. In its present guise, Movements.org continues to receive funding
from Gen Next, as well as from Google, MSNBC, and PR giant Edelman, which
represents General Electric, Boeing, and Shell, among others.

\---

Fascinating stuff - a glimpse into the murky world of international politics
for someone like me who generally has no idea.

[1] [https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-
seems/](https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/)

~~~
progressive_dad
Google, The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, and Edelman all strongly
courted Obama staffers in 2012 during and after the election. There are many
close ties between these companies and the current administration. It wouldn't
surprise me a bit if movements.org was simply another funnel for these
organizations to continue to splash money and favors in their direction.

How depressing would it be to know your job and existence is basically a
bribe, with no expectation to make a meaningful contribution to the world? I'm
picturing some enterprising recent college graduate thinking they're going
there to change the world and getting laughed out of the room after laying out
a plan to make them more effective. I need a shower just thinking about it.

~~~
tamana
So your idea is that companies give money to employee Y of X, as a bribe to X
(who likes the company better because they game X money), and that's bad
because Y is somehow unable to use money effectively, but X is able to use
money effectively?

------
throwaway9ttt
From the original article: "The last forty years has seen a huge proliferation
of think tanks and political NGOs whose purpose, beneath all the verbiage, is
to execute political agendas by proxy."

This is how powerful governments shape the world: 1\. Create ideas (lies) 2\.
Get the press to constantly write those ideas 3\. Change the truth

Once the truth is shaped you can now do what you want. In fact you now have to
do required things to keep your country safe.

Examples: Millions of people unnecessarily dying in Iraq and Syria.

------
jnaour
Made me thinks of the last season of House of Cards. Really a good one, really
neat and engaged in some aspect like Reign by Terror, Manufacturing consent
using search engine, relation with Russia...

One of other HN article is about Facebook data used for social studies. If you
are not paying for it, you're not the customer; you're the product being sold.

~~~
baldfat
> If you are not paying for it, you're not the customer; you're the product
> being sold.

I hear this all the time but it's message is a bit off. I'll quote this page
[http://powazek.com/posts/3229](http://powazek.com/posts/3229)

1) Assumption: This is new or unique to the internet

2) Assumption: You’re either the product or the customer

3) My Favorite - Assumption: Companies you pay treat you better (Comcast
Anyone?)

~~~
toyg
4) Assumption: companies have one and one only type of customer / product.

------
golergka
Well — is there anyone who would paint Google as bad guys because of this? How
and why?

~~~
adwf
This particular incident? No. It's the fact that they're doing this kind of
thing at all is the problem. People have been worrying for years about the
filter bubble that Google put you in; could you imagine if they tried to skew
the US election? This document provides some evidence that they've certainly
been thinking along those lines.

~~~
golergka
Jared Cohen is a director of Google Ideas, now called Jigsaw under Alphabet.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigsaw_(company)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigsaw_\(company\))

The email is lacking context, but it appears that they gather data from open
sources, not from some sinister surveillance program. And they use this data
in open partnership with Al Jazeera. And the company itself is not the main
"Google" that is tied to search an ads, but was launched, at inception, as
"global technology think-tank".

So I see no relationship between what's discussed in these emails and
hypothetical scenarios you're describing.

~~~
gbuk2013
Again from Assange's article[1]:

\---

In fact, Cohen had moved to Google from the US State Department in 2010. He
had been a fast-talking “Generation Y” ideas man at State under two US
administrations, a courtier from the world of policy think tanks and
institutes, poached in his early twenties. He became a senior advisor for
Secretaries of State Rice and Clinton. At State, on the Policy Planning Staff,
Cohen was soon christened “Condi’s party-starter,” channeling buzzwords from
Silicon Valley into US policy circles and producing delightful rhetorical
concoctions such as “Public Diplomacy 2.0.” On his Council on Foreign
Relations adjunct staff page he listed his expertise as “terrorism;
radicalization; impact of connection technologies on 21st century statecraft;
Iran.”

\---

Good or evil is quite subjective, but there is a pretty clear connection to at
least one presidential candidate.

That article is a seriously interesting (and long) read, assuming that it's
all true of course - it is not interesting enough for me to start digging for
proofs! ;)

[1] [https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-
seems/](https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/)

------
wodenokoto
What is so bad about that map?

~~~
cryoshon
A multinational corporation has decided to map defections in a civil war in
order to encourage people to defect from the government. An evil government,
sure-- but it's a company weighing in on one side of a war. It isn't within
their mandate.

Manipulation here means that manipulation elsewhere is possible.

~~~
gcb0
well, even that would be OK of it was the company/owner desire. the crux here
is that it was a government project, paid by your money, without your
representation, and that it completely backfired.

------
Grue3
So Google did something good for once?

