
My Sony "smart" TV has updated itself and tried to force me to use a new app - DyslexicAtheist
https://twitter.com/buro9/status/980349887006076928
======
buro9
I'm the author and linking to my tweets is a bad idea because they auto-delete
after 14 days.

For future HN context, as the author I'm reproducing them here in full:

My @Sony "smart" TV has updated itself and tried to force me to use a new app
from [https://samba.tv](https://samba.tv) and boy oh boy... this is worse than
recent @facebook stuff.

From their own privacy policy: [https://samba.tv/legal/privacy-
policy/](https://samba.tv/legal/privacy-policy/) … they track what you watch,
when you watch it, your location, your interactions with other apps. And they
share this with... well, everyone basically.

This information is then used to market to you within the TV and offer you a
"hot list"... but it is also used to "Detect, investigate and prevent
fraudulent transactions and other illegal activities and protect the rights,
safety and property of Samba and others"

If you have a "Smart TV" from any brand and it's doing an update you will 100%
want to disable Samba.

Samba is not a feature for you, it is a snitch in your living room, snitching
on everything you watch on your TV, it's a feature for corporations only.

To disable Samba the soft way... don't agree to their T&Cs post OS upgrade.

To disable Samba the hard way... use Android system settings to disable the
app.

This is a good time to say that if you own a "Smart TV" from any company you
should run it on a different network than your NAS and other computers. And
that all other devices best require passwords to connect to them.

Ideally you run a TV on a different VLAN.

And this is where I wish that dumb panels were all the rage, and that the only
"smart" functionality was external to the display itself. But when @netflix
and other content providers decline the use of their apps outside of
integrated devices this is the hell we live in.

I really wish that @Google provided a TV box that was the full Android TV, but
that was vanilla Google with the ability to install @netflix, @BBCiPlayer,
@mubi as apps. That I could just plug this into any display panel, including
dumb displays.

Perhaps @Google could even call it Pixel TV.

~~~
pwg
Solution: don't _ever_ purchase a smart TV.

Preferably, no one would _ever_ purchase a smart TV. When smart TV sales go to
zero, the makers would get the message.

Sadly, too many folks don't know, or if they do know, they don't care.

~~~
buro9
Try it.

I did.

I couldn't find a non-smart TV. They are everywhere. If you want the 4k, then
you have a smart TV.

The best alternatives were super large monitors (way over the price of a TV,
and with no decent sound built in), or corporate display panels (for
advertising, signage, etc) whose prices are also way above a TV and include no
sound system at all.

~~~
beached_whale
The non-smart 4k tv's exist and can be found for relatively inexpensive
prices. I just got one, an off brand Technicolor TC5580-UHD.

~~~
0xcde4c3db
That particular model number is apparently exclusive to Shoppers Drug Mart
(store-exclusive model numbers are a pretty common problem; in many cases the
actual difference from a "standard" model is something trivial like a slightly
different remote or bezel). There's an interesting forum thread about the
overall product family / platform / whatever [1].

[https://forums.redflagdeals.com/rca-haier-avera-fluid-
sylvan...](https://forums.redflagdeals.com/rca-haier-avera-fluid-sylvania-
technicolor-proscan-49-55-65-uhd-4k-tv-owners-thread-2069609/)

~~~
beached_whale
Optimum points are really nice for stuff like this. Just hold onto them until
something nice shows up. It would be very interesting if some details of the
FW came out. Not going to reverse engineer my new TV but the service menu
gives me the feels of something that is very customizable.

------
nathanaldensr
The meme of "if you're not paying, you are the product" is, of course, true,
but it doesn't acknowledge the host of cases when you _are_ the product _even
if you 're paying_. This guy basically paid to be spied on.

~~~
kartickv
Which is why this meme is a half-truth. Other examples include old-world
companies like magazines and banks selling our data despite us paying for the
service.

Even in areas other than privacy, my bank mistreats me far worse than Internet
companies like Google and Twitter.

Not to mention that in a multi-sided ecosystem, Internet companies need to
keep both users and advertisers happy, so even if you're not paying, your
desires still factor into the decision.

To be clear, I didn't say this meme is a lie, just that it's a half-truth. It
makes sense to some extent.

~~~
devmunchies
My bank (US Bank) had a Facebook script behind the login wall and was firing
requests to Facebook while I was doing private banking.

~~~
knuththetruth
You should write it up in a blog post or something. Given the climate around
Facebook right now, it’s not inconceivable that it could get enough attention
that your bank stops doing this.

------
diafygi
> From their own privacy policy: [https://samba.tv/legal/privacy-
> policy/](https://samba.tv/legal/privacy-policy/) they track what you watch,
> when you watch it, your location, your interactions with other apps. And
> they share this with... well, everyone basically.

I wonder how the GDPR will affect companies like Samba's business model.

Also, isn't this effectively true of all internet connected TVs since they
will never receive security patches and become part of the botnet of things?

~~~
Sharlin
GDPR will _hopefully_ make companies that do things like this really sweat.
The EU doesn’t seem to be fucking around with that one.

~~~
fipple
GDPR only increases engineering and compliance costs. It doesn’t have any
consumer-side impact since to a first approximation, zero consumers take
advantage of data privacy laws.

~~~
jacquesm
> since to a first approximation, zero consumers take advantage of data
> privacy laws.

That's where that nice multiplier of 250,000 gets going. See, even if to a
first approximation zero consumers take advantage of these laws if it turns
out that 'approximately zero' out of 100 million is say 10,000 you're _still_
fucked if you decide to play dumb.

So round off all you want, but keep in mind the multiplier.

~~~
fipple
No, because of that multiplier all companies are coming into compliance and
it's costing all of them a lot of money. But it isn't going to affect their
revenue or advertising business models at all because nobody uses the tool.
I've done GDPR work at one of the biggest tech companies in the world. They
had an existing (pre-GDPR) privacy tool that literally less than 100 people
had ever used. This is a company with hundreds of millions of users.

~~~
jacquesm
So, you're saying 'it works and that's why we shouldn't use it'?

 _One_ company isn't a particularly solid sample.

For some contrast: I've looked at 9 companies since the beginning of the year
and all of them took the GDPR serious enough that it made them re-evaluate
their privacy, security and data life cycles. The interesting bit is that they
would have _never_ done any of that if not for the GDPR, and that no matter
what level of use the data privacy tools will see it doesn't matter because
before they didn't have those tools and now they do.

Besides that the GDPR has _much_ wider scope than just allowing people access
to their own data. Also, you should expect that as people become more aware of
these things - and consumers _will_ be more aware - that such tools will see
more use.

------
paulie_a
This sort of crap makes me think a manufacturer should brand a dumb tv, and
simply market: "it's just a high end tv without all the crap we know you hate
and dont use anyways, also the CIA can't hack it"

[https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/25/15421326/smart-tv-
hacking...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/25/15421326/smart-tv-hacking-cia-
samsung-weeping-angel-vulnerability)

~~~
Waterluvian
I am quite angry that my PS4 is full of ads. I paid money for that box.

What I want is a law that requires a product to clearly indicate if it has ads
or not in the software, and it cannot change at any point in the product's
life. So I know what the price tag actually is.

Edit: I want to be clear. I am not against advertising or the freedom for a
manufacturer to decide that advertising is their business model. What I want
is to protect consumers who pay for a product that slowly devolves into an
advertising box. I am also not expecting my rush-designed law to prevent ads
or give consumers more options. All it would do is make it clear to consumers
what they're paying for.

Advertising is just another form of payment. Imagine if you bought a smart
fridge and 3 years in it required a subscription to use the "smart" part of
it. You would be furious.

~~~
sz4kerto
The money you paid for your PS4 barely covers manufacturing costs.

~~~
falcolas
And that's our problem... how?

Sony makes money off every video game sale; attempting to get more from ads is
just greedy. And how they present the ads as another game a very dark pattern.

~~~
coldtea
> _And that 's our problem... how?_

Isn't it obvious? That's the buyers problem because any time they "buy"
something for less than it actually costs, they actually get an ad/app/service
subsidized experience.

~~~
falcolas
As I pointed out above Sony has, does, and will continue to make up the
hardware subsidy by the markup and money they get on games. That is, there is
no need for Sony to subsidize the platform further through ads.

This makes ads on the PS4 a product of greed alone.

------
Mister_Snuggles
I would like to see a TV with the following attributes:

1\. 8 Inputs, with at least four HDMI and one HDMI accessible from the front
panel. The remaining inputs would have at least two composite inputs. There
would be no cable input since most cable companies, around here anyway,
require a set-top box anyway.

2\. An optical audio output, for those who wish to hook up a proper audio
system. Those who don’t would get ok-ish built in speakers.

3\. An always-on power outlet or two, to make hooking up the obligatory set-
top box, Apple TV, etc easier. It would also have two USB power outlets, which
are also always on, which would make hooking up a Raspberry Pi, Chromecast,
etc easier. This requirement is optional, but desirable.

The remote on the TV would have a button for each input, a power button,
volume controls, and a couple of buttons to support the on-screen settings
menu (things like picture adjustments, activate/deactivate/rename inputs,
etc). The TV would respond to HDMI CEC controls from attached devices, but
would have the option to ignore these on particular inputs.

In the end, the TV provides the appropriate infrastructure to hook up whatever
devices meet my needs. It also doesn’t try to solve problems that TV
manufacturers aren’t good at solving.

Why does nobody make a TV like this? Assuming this was price-competitive with
a regular TV, I’d buy two.

EDIT: I found one that’s pretty close[0].

[0] [https://www.costco.ca/Haier-49UG2500-49-in.-4K-LED-
TV.produc...](https://www.costco.ca/Haier-49UG2500-49-in.-4K-LED-
TV.product.100386052.html)

~~~
cup-of-tea
What you're describing is a monitor. A big, good looking monitor. That's all I
want too. The interface on my (non smart) TV is unbearably slow and I don't
want to use it. Unbelievably, the interface on the last "smart" TV I tried,
which costs 5x as much, is even slower. I cannot stand using tools that can't
keep up with how fast I think.

~~~
Mister_Snuggles
Yes, exactly. Living room monitors need to become a thing.

~~~
eilyra
They kind of are a thing, there's the LG 43UD79-B[1] which is a 43" UHD
monitor. Not the biggest screen, but decently sized and it advertises a 5ms
GTG response time which should be adquate for monitor like use.

[1] [http://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-43UD79-B-4k-uhd-led-
monitor](http://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-43UD79-B-4k-uhd-led-monitor)

~~~
pault
Be careful to check of those things support HDPC or whatever it's called. I
have the Dell 42.5 inch monitor and it won't play 4k content.

------
madez
If this happens under EU jurisdiction, then you can deny the update and
legally demand that the TV continues working. The manufacturer may not impose
new rules after the selling contract.

Fuck this wild-west anarchistic behaviour of software companies. When we have
legal protection, we can make use of it.

~~~
solidangle
Also have a Sony Smart TV, and I live in the EU. After updating the TV, it
asked me whether I wanted to enable Samba, and I simply declined. Seems to be
disabled now.

~~~
jake_the_third
Unfortunetly, it seems that the TV will still contact Samba.tv's servers
regardless:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16728720](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16728720)

The only way to be sure with untrustworthy devices like this is not to connect
them to the network at all (i.e. use a separate device you can trust instead),
or better yet, buy a dumb monitor instead.

------
djrogers
> Ideally you run a TV on a different VLAN.

Why let it ‘run’ on your network or the internet at all? I’ve never connected
my newest TV to my WiFi, and can’t ever foresee a reason to do so. All of the
apps I want are running on a connected box I trust to maintain a degree of
privacy that I’d never assume from Sony, Samsung, or the like.

It’s not as if Netflix or Hulu actually force you to use the embedded TV apps.

~~~
nickhalfasleep
I plug my "smart" TV into ethernet now and then to get firmware updates, then
unplug it the rest of the time.

~~~
ManlyBread
2008: plug the TV into the power outlet and you're done

2018: your TV needs internet access because updates

What the hell happened? This is ridiculous.

~~~
NoNotTheDuo
2008: Manufacturer finds a defect in the firmware code that causes excessive
processor usage, thus causing the internal electronics to fail earlier than
anticipated. No fix available.

2018: defect in firmware found. New version deployed to internet connected
devices and lifespan extended.

Both of those are made up scenarios, but I would argue that there are
legitimate reasons for devices to be connected to the internet. Along with a
bunch of terrible reasons, of course.

~~~
bambax
> _lifespan extended_

Right. Sure. The manufacturer will spend time and money to extend the life of
devices already purchased.

I would prefer not take the chance, and see what happens. If the TV dies
early, so be it.

------
kmeade
We are recent "cord-cutters" with a brand new Sony 4K, Android-enabled TV. On
our other TVs, we have a Roku and an Amazon Firestick. We use the builtin Sony
apps because they were (essentially) free and are the only way we currently
have to get 4K content.

I noticed the Samba nonsense when I set up the TV and have declined to
participate -- but guess what? The TV still regularly connects to the domain
flingo.tv, which is Samba's old name. It also connects to other strange
things, like playstation-related domains. (and what is ndmdhs.com?)

I've set our WAN router to block samba/flingo and few other things, but my
wife is (rightfully) concerned that I'll disrupt the Android update process,
so I'm being careful.

It would be useful for someone with the skill, time and tools to investigate
what places these Internet TVs are contacting, aside from the actual video
content providers. If someone is doing that, I'd love to hear what they find.

~~~
corrigible
If you could provide some packet captures from the TV, analysis is pretty
straightforward...

~~~
kmeade
My WAN router only offers a short snapshot logging capability. I suppose I
could look at using Wireshark or something, but I'm not too experienced in
this area.

If I decide to go "deep techie" on this, I'd probably pursue an alternative
DNS approach. "Pi-hole" looks very interesting in this regard. I wish I hadn't
just gotten rid of my old laptop. (smile)

~~~
baq
tcpdump is a cli program that can output a file that Wireshark can read. It's
a matter of copying an invocation from somewhere and having room to store the
dump (external storage recommended, it might be a lot of data).

~~~
kmeade
Thanks, I'll look into that. I would like to have a longer snapshot of what
the Sony TV is doing.

Something I forgot to mention in my original comment -- that darn TV is
accessing the Internet even when it is (supposedly) turned off. It's hard not
be cynical about this stuff.

------
makecheck
My parents’ TV has various apps built in and one of them is Skype. They
discontinued the Skype service so now _every single time the TV turns on_ it
displays a stupid error message about “a problem with an app” that can’t be
uninstalled and that they never used.

Smart TVs are full of stuff like this. They need to go.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
That's why I went with Roku TV. They are the only platform with a consistent
track record of supporting old hardware. You also don't suffer from the single
vendor lock-in of Tizen or WebOS or the wild west of Android.

~~~
scarface74
if you are going to get a smart TV, definitely get a Roku TV. While the
interface for controlling the settings is much better than any other TV, the
remote app is nice and the private listening is awesome, the hardware is
slower than AppleTV 4K, and it doesn't handle fast forward and rewind as well.
The right half of the home screen is used for ads and the remote buttons for
quickly going to other channels isn't customizable and you are stuck with
whatever provider paid Roku for placement.

We have two Roku TVs and two other TVs with Roku sticks. We also have AppleTvs
connected to each of the TVs - one 4K ATV and the rest 3rd Gen ATVs.

~~~
Crespyl
The ads are obnoxious and the way every "app"/service implements their own
interface with quirky behavior (Does the "up" button show the timeline, pause,
or take you back out to the episode/series selection screen?) is annoying.

Fortunately it's possible to fix the ads at least by blocking doubleclick and
the roku ad/tracking domain at the router level. Doing this leaves a blank
"empty poster" graphic instead of an ad, but doesn't seem to break anything
else. Updates, search, and content all continue to work fine.

------
bsenftner
I just picked up a 55" TV, and the troubles I had explaining I did not want
any "Smart" features was like explaining to morons that smoking is bad for
you. The store had no commission on the sale, but the sales people, all of
them, could not understand why I'd not want TV apps and Internet.

~~~
Merad
Is it even possible to buy a non-smart TV today (not counting PC monitors)? I
bought my TV in 2015 and even then it seemed like most of the non-smart
options were overpriced older models with worse image quality, etc.

~~~
lotsofpulp
You have to get commercial or hospitality versions made for hotels.

~~~
satysin
Sadly the panels used in such models are almost always crap compared to high-
end consumer models. Even models which are supposedly identical to some
consumer model are usually not identical. The software often lacks features
such as Game Mode and such.

------
exabrial
On a similar note, Samsung updated a bunch of apps on my dad's s7 and pushed a
bunch of notifications to him, trying to get him to join some Samsung rewards
club and suspended use of his phone until he clicked next. He's 67 guys. The
madness needs to stop.

~~~
robotmay
I just got ahold of an S8 Edge and by god is it full of shite. I won't be
buying any Samsung hardware, and I'll definitely recommend my friends/family
don't; it might be the least user-friendly device I've ever used. The first 2
days you have to spend disabling so many things, or getting daft popups all
over the place explaining things you don't care about.

~~~
bookofjoe
"Crapware: Originally coined and reported by Marc Orchant on his ZDNet blog."
[https://lifehacker.com/5749098/the-computer-attacks-youve-
ne...](https://lifehacker.com/5749098/the-computer-attacks-youve-never-heard-
of)

------
iliketosleep
> This information is then used to market to you within the TV and offer you a
> "hot list"... but it is also used to "Detect, investigate and prevent
> fraudulent transactions and other illegal activities and protect the rights,
> safety and property of Samba and others"

This app pushes ads and tries to protect everybody except the user!

------
TheAceOfHearts
You can't really buy a high quality TV anymore without having em try to shove
extra garbage down your throat. I own an old Samsung TV, and it has terrible
UX. Giving it a chance to connect to the internet was a horrible mistake. My
TV is around +5 years old, and I don't see myself buying a new one any time
soon.

During the last 2 or so years I've drastically changed the kinds of media I
consume. Now my primary sources of entertainment are a mix of books and
audiobooks. Last year I think I read somewhere between 200 and 300 books.

Books don't include any tracking bullshit. If you stick with digital you can
at least buy DRM-free copies in a few online stores. But even cooler, we
actually have tons of huge buildings all across the US, each with thousands of
books, and you can grab any one you want and read it for free!

~~~
pvaldes
> Books don't include any tracking bullshit.

Most books aren't specially interesting. The history of the books that you
borrow in the public library is registered with your library customer card,
address and name. Some local libraries or universities will ask you to write
your name in a card when you take the book and let the card in the shelf.
Therefore anybody could read the names of the former five or ten people that
borrow the book before, and how many days they have it.

The complete history for some "person of interest" shouldn't be much
complicated to obtain for authorities. Maybe anybody borrowing a lot of
controversial texts in a short time and a small village would trigger some
alerts. Who knows. Let suppose that this is a library specialized in history
and the book title written in the public card is "mein kampf", for example.

~~~
et-al
I am not your librarian, but the American Library Association (ALA) seems to
respect readers' privacy.

They pushed back on the Patriot Act:

[http://www.ala.org/advocacy/advleg/federallegislation/theusa...](http://www.ala.org/advocacy/advleg/federallegislation/theusapatriotact)

And have guidelines for librarians when law enforcement comes knocking:

[http://www.ala.org/advocacy/privacy/lawenforcement](http://www.ala.org/advocacy/privacy/lawenforcement)

Again, it will vary depending on your town and library.

~~~
pvaldes
Interesting stuff, thanks.

> or in response to some form of judicial process (subpoena, search warrant,
> or other court order).

So basically, this info is available and can be used against you in a trial.
Is a fake sense of privacy.

The main difference between public libraries and internet is that the former
have much less controversial adult or political stuff but a lot of stablished
literature touch taboo and very sensitive matter. Has this people read
'Lolita', 'the Catcher in the Rye' or took a look to 'The Capital' in the
past?, has borrow a Quran recently? For how many days? How many times? Any
attorney could easily use pseudoscience and cheap psychology to draw a line
and build a relate leading to any conclusion of their interest with this info.

------
simion314
I hope EU will push more laws, when you buy hardware like a smatphone,TV,PC
all the extra crap on top should be opt-in not opt-out, I bought an ASUS cheap
smartphone(new, unlocked no carrier contracts) and it has extra apps on top of
the basic Android that I can only disable and not remove.

At startup there should be a prompt with suggested apps that they want the
user to install, if the user selects an app to install it(after reading the
description) then pull that app from the store.

~~~
rapnie
you might like eelo.io and there are others in the works that are open-source
and privacy-focused, but eelo looks promising :)

------
squarefoot
"I really wish that @Google provided a TV box that was the full Android TV,
but that was vanilla Google with the ability to install @netflix, @BBCiPlayer,
@mubi as apps. That I could just plug this into any display panel, including
dumb displays."

He is basically asking to be spied in a different way, just like his cellphone
does.

~~~
lotyrin
While I'd love the option not to be spied on, If I don't have that option, I'd
rather the spies be fewer and more competent.

The doomsday scenario is if we have tons of little pop-up 3rd party data
collectors that fail at infosec and produce datasets that become public
knowledge via leaks and can be cross-referenced for all eternity.

------
nv-vn
AT&T does this on their Android phones pretty frequently. Missed my alarm the
other day because they decided to push an update overnight and you need to
input a password to boot into your phone after it restarts. I'm just waiting
till the high profile lawsuit where someone can't call 9/11 because AT&T just
forcibly turned their phone off.

------
username223
> Ideally you run a TV on a different VLAN.

Are these the depths to which we have sunk? I remember when a television was a
thing that showed moving images using a cathode ray tube. The switch to liquid
crystal displays was a genuine technological improvement. Now we need to treat
our televisions as hostile surveillance devices because "ad tech" runs the
world? I can't wait until our robot taxis drive diabetics to Krispy Kreme,
then to Bob's Dialysis Center.

------
isoprophlex
This is, sadly, nothing new. See [0], Samsung also did something like this in
2016.

I was affected by this, I'm never getting a Samsung TV ever again.

[0] [http://adage.com/article/digital/samsung-smart-tv-update-
for...](http://adage.com/article/digital/samsung-smart-tv-update-forces-
ads/307246/)

~~~
paulie_a
I don't get why Samsung bothers too make great products that have shitty
software.

My refrigerator shouldn't need to reboot. Or at one point get into an endless
reboot cycle. This "smart" but mediocre age needs to go away

~~~
josephg
I've been looking at getting a new washing machine lately. One of the "hot new
features" some new washing machines have is the ability to "download new
washing programs via our app!".

Really? The 40+ different pre-programmed wash cycle options aren't enough and
you expect to think of new washing machine routines over the next year or two?
Its like ... DLC but for washing my clothes. Who thinks this is a good idea?

I wonder how much of that functionality will still work in 10-15 years when
the machine is getting long in the tooth.

I can't wait for botnets made up of old internet connected washing machines.
You know its just a matter of time before some Russian teenager takes down
github using your grandma's washing machine.

~~~
kungtotte
You think botnets don't already include all these smart devices? We recently
bought a new fridge and freezer with that functionality but there's no way
they are getting hooked up to any network.

~~~
paulie_a
You can apparently request the source code for many of those devices. Ive done
it for my Samsung fridge and got a reasonable response.

I scanned the code and don't find any egregious problems like hard coded
passwords but I just assume the codebase is a complete shit show with flaws.

I will not connect those devices to my wifi.

------
sparkling
This is the problem with putting logic into the TV. Keep it Unix-y. Do one
thing, but do it right. A TV should be just a panel, nothing more.

A $50 player box does everything better than the built-in player hardware and
software.

~~~
tome
> A TV should be just a panel, nothing more.

Don't we have such things, called "monitors"?

~~~
squarefoot
Yup, that would be the ideal solution, but their prices skyrocket as soon as
one goes above the "normal" office/gamer panel sizes. They're also probably
built using better parts and better quality control. Economies of scale do the
rest.

------
nfoz
I have a 4K 55" "dumb" TV. You typically need to look for the "Business" line
of products to find them.

[http://www.lg.com/us/business/commercial-display/displays-
tv...](http://www.lg.com/us/business/commercial-display/displays-
tvs/commercial/lg-55UX340C)

The downsides are that it doesn't do HDR (that's typical for the pricepoint
anyway, but I'm not sure they make their nicer lines as dumb-TVs "for
business" if you wanted it). And it only has two HDMI inputs (which is fine
for me, or I might get a separate splitter if I want to expand later).

The upsides: the TV just works, works fast, and never gets in my way. The
remote-control is simple.

I'll avoid Smart TVs as long as I possibly can.

------
CyberDildonics
Reliable internet basically turned tech companies into giant bait and switch
factories. Things get swapped out from under you at will to force you to use
certain apps, sign up for certain services, give over whatever data they want.
Look at Microsoft switching out their terms of service for skype, xbox live,
office, etc. Windows updates are more of the same. Cell phone apps are a prime
target since they basically give a direct line to update whatever software a
company wants on to your phone, now that you have invested in setting up and
getting some particular software to work. All the solutions to problems get
switched out to create more problems.

------
Zigurd
This is an example of a strategic bind:

Google wants Android to be "cleaner," to better compete with Apple. This means
no underhanded service modules or system extensions, and no intrusive or
otherwise low quality privileged apps.

Android phones are inexpensive because Google doesn't make money directly from
licensing the OS. Barriers to entry are low, competition is fierce, and
hardware differentiation is only possible at the high end (e.g. vertically
integrated OEMs like Samsung).

This means at the high end Samsung's product managers won't give up making
Samsung phone differentiated through things like Bixby, which is a value-
subtracted wart on Android, and at the low end, cheap OEMs won't stop taking
payments from app makers who monetize by collecting user data.

Google has the power to reject OEM products that violate whatever standards
Google chooses to impose on OEMs, but, as Microsoft learned decades ago,
standing between a low margin OEM and a few extra dollars per unit is a
difficult position. Once a product ships, policing updates is even harder.

If you are wondering "Why can't I get a 'clean' TV, phone, PC, etc?" This is
why.

~~~
gruez
>as Microsoft learned decades ago, standing between a low margin OEM and a few
extra dollars per unit is a difficult position. Once a product ships, policing
updates is even harder.

What is this about? Afaik windows (desktop) and windows phone all get 5+ years
of patches.

~~~
mprev
Presumably, it’s about all the junk that OEMs install on Windows in exchange
for a few cents or dollars per machine.

------
ramphastidae
You can easily buy a high quality dumb TV in 2018. I just did it last year. It
took me ten minutes of research. I saved hundreds of dollars over and enjoy
many more streaming features than the equivalent smart TV by hooking up an old
laptop via HDMI.

Here it is: [https://www.walmart.com/ip/Samsung-43-class-fhd-1080p-led-
tv...](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Samsung-43-class-fhd-1080p-led-tv-
un43j5000/45161376)

~~~
nvahalik
We bought a dumb TV on sale for $175. 50 inch, too!

------
hypertexthero
Have boycotted Sony ever since their [rootkit DRM][1] in 2005.

Seems things have not changed much at the company.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootk...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal)

~~~
acjohnson55
Haven't bought A Sony product since they killed Bleem!, the Playstation 1
emulator for PC. That rootkit really hammered it in though.

------
kristianc
Slightly odd that the final tweet for the OP is a wish for Google to release a
Pixel TV. I'm sure a Google TV wouldn't spy on you at all.

~~~
andybak
I can see OPs point. I'm slightly less concerned about Google than some
scrappy little upstart still trying the "growth at any cost" thing.

I actually will probably trust Facebook again once they have been suitably
thrashed over past deeds and have had time to reflect on what went wrong.

Both companies will eventually become privacy conscious by necessity and have
the resources (hopefully) to enforce it internally.

If they don't then the next revelation or the one after that might be their
death knell.

~~~
kristianc
It's ironic that "growth at any cost" is now being used as a stick to beat
scrappy little upstarts with - when that is literally Facebook's phrase.

What Facebook and Google lose in (pretty much entirely self-imposed, for now)
regulations, they gain in the ability to index against all of your other
activity, everywhere.

The scrappy startup has only one data point on you, and has to work with
others to make it useful (which, with GDPR will be a lot harder to do).

------
soared
If you're curious what samba does with your data:
[https://platform.samba.tv/audiences/connected-tv-
ads/](https://platform.samba.tv/audiences/connected-tv-ads/)

I run two ctv ad camapigns partially using samba tv data.

------
Keverw
I haven't used many smart tvs but I find the software to feel lower quality
than a dedicated game console or box.

Kinda feel like they are building in smart TV features just to say "me to".
Plus some of the blu-ray players that came with Netflix and stuff aren't being
updated anymore and then when the APIs are deprecated at some point. So then
you have these boxes lose their originally functionality other than just
playing disks.

Seems like displays last longer than the software.

------
sunstone
Rather than using the "smart" function of your TV you would be well advised to
get a 'tiny form factor' computer (I use Zotac), perhaps running Ubuntu, so
that you can get the 'smartness' under your own terms.

Otherwise you may find that your smart TV is tracking everything you do and
listening to everything you say! (ala 2001 A Space Odyssey; "I'm sorry Dave I
can't do that.")

------
blitmap
It's becoming almost necessary to have a wireless router that supports having
a guest network where connected guests can't "talk to each other". The
frustrating part is my Linksys has a captive portal rather than asking for
password the traditional way, so I can't join some of my "smart" appliances to
the guest network. This is somewhat irrelevant to the post, but I try to keep
all the untrusted devices on a separate network. I don't want them talking to
the devices I trust or learning from each other and becoming "smarter". It
just stinks that it's getting harder to find dumb devices with a focused use -
they all want to be tablets.

------
hsivonen
It's pretty sad that even a "premium brand" like Sony does this.

Last year, Sony's privacy policy for their Digital Paper app (without which
the Digital Paper device is useless) and Headphones Connect (not required for
the headphones to function) claimed the content of the device the app was
installed on as fair game for telemetry without opt out. That's not OK. The
Headphones Connect privacy language seems to have been revised in January, but
I'm still not installing the app.

Digital Paper is marketed to legal and medical professionals!

------
ryandrake
It’s funny sitting here on HN reading about this, with many HN readers
outraged and disappointed that a company would do such anti-user stuff in
their products. HN readers, quite a few of whom, are likely complicit software
engineers at companies doing similar anti-user things.

You ask when these practices are going to end? They will not end while we
quietly implement them! You look for who to blame? As a profession we need to
look in the mirror.

These surveillance boxes masquerading as consumer electronics don’t build
themselves.

~~~
mr_toad
Software engineers aren’t all clones. There are probably more who don’t care
about privacy than those who do.

------
cachecade
One of the few bright sides of Sony's smart TVs is that since they run
android, its not a big deal to connect to the TV via adb and delete whichever
apps you don't want to run. the xdc forums have a pretty good starting point
on things to get rid of:

[https://forum.xda-developers.com/nexus-
player/general/sony-a...](https://forum.xda-developers.com/nexus-
player/general/sony-android-tv-users-t3096901/page126)

------
gambiting
Yep, I used to use the Netflix app on my Sony TV (bravia W8) but after an
update couple months ago it stopped working completely, Netflix just closes
when I try to play anything. I actually have completely changed my opinion on
OTA updates over the last few years - I don't want any updates. I want the
software my phone/TV/car shipped with and I don't want to to change for the
sake of updating, it's universally more pain than it's worth.

~~~
secabeen
I agree, but things will still break with Netflix (or whoever) deprecates and
then discontinues the API that they're using to access content.

~~~
na85
Not if you consume Netflix through a media box.

------
samstave
You should know that every single Vizio tv has been doing this for years. But
it’s less nefarious than one may think and you can opt out.

Source: helped build it.

------
cletus
Just don’t plug your “smart” TV into the internet and all these problems go
away. Seriously. Get a Roku or similar for any services you want.

------
drefanzor
You are blocked from following @buro9 and viewing @buro9's Tweets. Learn more

Ha.

~~~
jlebrech
someone who deletes their tweets every 14 days also uses a blocklist, figures.

------
giancarlostoro
I got a Smart LG TV with my LG G5 years ago (for 'free' with the purchase of
my phone) and I don't give it Wi-Fi credentials. I bought a Mi Box Android TV
from WalMart instead and hook that up to the internet. I rather my TV be as
dumb as possible so I can replace the device I use to access Netflix without
having to throw out my whole TV. It doesn't have Android TV it has some LG
thing but regardless I rather keep my TV dumb altogether.

I have no guarantee my TV wont spy on me through my wireless network tomorrow
(if not today). I have no true guarantee that my TV wont become exploitable to
some botnet either. I rather be able to take my Android TV device and unplug
it and still be able to use my TV with a DVD player if it came down to my
device being exploited somehow.

------
MisterTea
I own two dumb Sony TVs and a really old Westinghouse that I gave to my
mother. 1080 tvs and high enough resolution for me. I consider 2k and above to
be excessive and unneeded (I even think the smooth motion of today's TVs take
away from the programming and turn those garbage dsp things off). I enjoy TV
shows and I prefer to keep things simple. I prefer a dumb TV, in fact if be
happy with a monitor. Just give me an TV with a few inputs and I'm happy. I
prefer to buy a low cost media player, currently older fire sticks. That's all
I'll ever want or need. Don't need apps on a TV. In fact, I think the idea is
absurd.

------
stjohnswarts
Yet another reason not everything needs to be connected all the time. I don't
need my fridge reminding me to get eggs or that the milk is out of date. Those
things are readily apparent.

------
acd
I want to run an open source operating system such as Debian/Ubuntu on my next
TV. By using open source software I know what the TV does and other can verify
what it does. There is a lot of usable streaming apps(Netflix through Chrome,
Amazon Prime, Spotify). Also mention that there is Kodi.

Please put open boot loader so one can load Open source software in TVs.

Another great feature is that the TV will continue to get security updates and
longer from a software perspective. Longer lasting TV will be better for the
environment.

------
eco
My interest in smart TVs ended almost instantly after I bought my first. I
went to adjust the volume and there was an advertisement below the volume
slider. Not an ad for Panasonic. Just a regular old banner ad for some random
company. I disabled that "feature" in the settings then just disconnected the
TV from the network entirely after discovering how terrible all the apps were.

I just use a Chromecast and Kodi on a NUC for everything now.

------
social_quotient
Maybe over simplifying but could you filter the network traffic for the spying
chatter and while letting it still get major updates? I’m assuming there would
be a way to see what spy traffic is and then route the requests to a dead DNS
host file.

I’ll agree in advance you shouldn’t have to secure yourself from inside the
home network like this but I also assume there will be more and more smart
devices exfiltrating data that you didn’t really want.

------
_audakel
> run it on a different network than your NAS and other computers. And that
> all other devices best require passwords to connect to them. Ideally you run
> a TV on a different VLAN.

Very important. I used to have no password on any of my internal network
devices, then changed to all the same pw. I need to put them all different,
because threats seem more likely to come from internal "trusted" sources that
we bring in

------
kwhitefoot
Just when you think it might be time to forgive Sony for the rootkit they do
something that shows that as a corporation hey have not learned anything.

------
rmstallman
When a device or system is described as "smart", read "spy". See
stallman.org/articles/what-mary-had.html.

I wouldn't allow anything "smart" in my home, and I urge you to do the same.
As for Netflix, I refuse to let a company know what I watch, or tolerate DRM,
or agree to a contract not to give, lend or share copies. See
stallman.org/netflix.html.

------
angel_j
I don't know why people want to buy smart TV when you can plug your computer,
over which you have much more control, into a large, dumb, monitor. Opaque
operating systems, terrible UIs, security and privacy implications galore. The
experience is like going back in time w/r/t using computers and software to
enhance your experience.

------
noir_lord
My "Smart" TV is a new 4K Samsung screen that I never connected to the WiFi
connected to a Media PC running Xubuntu.

I don't trust the security on any networked device I don't have the source
code for (and I don't really trust the media PC hardware either since its
intel, not a fan of their security policies).

------
ksec
How much more crap until Apple think enough is enough. They will make an Apple
TV Set purely for themselves.

Why in 2018, we have "Smart TV" that requires so much settings and are not
really anyway Smarter for most consumers. We then gives in so much privacy and
information before we are allow to use it?

~~~
johnflan
Apple is not the solution here.

------
Spearchucker
I have a smart TV and have simply never connected it to the Internet. I see no
reason to. I watch movies and play games on Xbox, watch TV through my cable
box. Terrestrial TV works just fine without an Internet connection. Is there
anything else I should be doing? Am I missing something?

------
Adirael
Since there doesn't exist a good panel without Smart TV capabilities, what I
do is just don't give them access to the network. Everything runs through an
Android Box connected to an HDMI or a PS4 when I want to use Netflix (I never
managed to make it work on the Android box)

~~~
navaati
> Since there doesn't exist a good panel without Smart TV capabilities

Have a look at the Dell P4317Q, decent 4k 43" screen, less than 1k€.

I use it as a TV, very satisfied (and since it's got no tuner, I get to avoid
the Irish TV tax (but IANAL) !)

Only caveat is no HDMI 2.0, you can only get 4k@60hz via DisplayPort so not
fully compatible with ChromeCast 4k for example.

------
ajkjk
Maybe, if you buy a product from a company which they are capable of later
updating (read: breaking), they should receive your money in installments as
long as the product still works, and if they upload a change that breaks it,
you're in your rights to stop paying.

------
chrischen
Netflix also tracks what you watch, most likely where as well (since the app
is on so many devices).

~~~
mr_toad
I doubt they sell it to third parties, and they don’t do third party
advertising.

------
MrBuddyCasino
The software in „smart“ TVs is awful. Always been, always will be. Don’t use
it. You could try and find a dumb panel, but you could also simply not use it.

Get an AppleTV or whatever, plug it in, problem solved.

------
natch
Looks like they have nepotism on the executive team, too. Sketchy.

~~~
dapearce
Family members co-founding a company isn't nepotism.

~~~
natch
Family members co-founding a company is a perfectly natural thing that
sometimes happens, but that doesn't magically make it not nepotism, and a
setup that over time will cause problems. It creates a company where anyone
below knows that the opportunities for upward mobility are severely curtailed
by the family interests that generally override company needs when push comes
to shove.

------
remir
And this is what trouble me with the so-called "internet of things". No
regulation, no standards, nobody cares.

How long until you TV or microweave oven is part of a botnet?

------
wemdyjreichert
Still have a CRT tube because I don't want a smart TV. Panels can last for ~10
years; the "smart" brains won't.

------
butterfi
I have a Samsung TV with built in apps and a suspicious privacy policy, so I
plugged in a Roku and never use the built in apps.

~~~
bilbo0s
I thought about this but I discovered that my Roku has the same things going
on behind the scenes with respect to data "visibility", or, "sharing".

What they need to do is just to make the panel with no network features. I
ended up simply disconnecting the tv panel from the net work and using a small
pc to get to netflix. Crude, but effective.

------
narrator
My smart TV does not have my wifi password. Only my microphone-free last
generation media player gets that privilege.

------
goofballisright
Misnomer of misnomers.

It's not an upgrade if you can't roll it back.

------
baloki
LG TV’s have been doing this for years...

~~~
baloki
Sorry, should have added a source:
[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/20/lg_smart_tv_data_co...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/20/lg_smart_tv_data_collection/)

------
gcb0
to be honest, sony have a track record of doing this. bought a music CD or
games? get a rootkit.

if you still buy sony products, I can't be sory for you.

~~~
nip
Any good tv recommendation, if not Sony?

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Not Samsung.

I've been reasonably happy with my Panasonic.

~~~
petepete
Panasonic Viera TVs used to have adverts in the EPG. It's an industry-wide
shitshow

[http://gonedigital.net/wp-
content/uploads/PanasonicEPG.jpg](http://gonedigital.net/wp-
content/uploads/PanasonicEPG.jpg)

