

How we handle time off - alexobenauer
http://mindsense.co/blog/how-we-handle-time-off/

======
andrewvc
"Unlimited time off" is the new open office plan. An idea that seems
liberating, but will be despised 10 years on.

These policies are BS, what they really are is the unlimited right to
negotiate for vacation time. They are also frequently chosen because they mean
employers don't need to cut employees a check for vacation time not taken when
they leave. When I left my last job which had this policy I asked for a check
for vacation not taken, and was told that one reason they chose that policy
was that they wouldn't have to cut such checks.

Any reasonable employer can make exceptions to a fixed vacation policy for
things like sick leave, if an employee gets layed up for a month after a car
wreck they can choose to pay them despite the policy.

Either type of policy can be interpreted generously or not, but with fixed
vacation policies there are at least limits on how poorly you can be treated,
and you know it up front.

~~~
minikites
> They are also frequently chosen because they mean employers don't need to
> cut employees a check for vacation time not taken when they leave.

Ding ding ding! This is a big reason that doesn't occur to most people but
saves the employer stacks of money.

~~~
opendais
Yep. It saves them money and in most environments no one takes off
significantly more time than they would otherwise.

------
cryoshon
I agree that strictly regimented sick/vacation time is something a lot of us
suffer under. My organization goes as far as to call the combined
sick/vacation pool "Earned Time". As though you have to work in order to earn
the right to rest at home when you are sick or want to take a day off.

Unfortunately, there's another side of the coin. I have worked alongside a
couple of groups with a "take whatever you need when you need it"
vacation/sick day policy. Either by choice or by necessity, they're disgusting
workaholics without exception who routinely grind for 10-12 hours a day, every
day, for months, fearing the work that will accumulate if they are home sick
for a day or away for vacation for any period of time. They don't get paid
more for working late. When I asked, they seem to each take one 5 day vacation
once per year.

The saddest part of it all is their personal lives-- the wife of the boss of
that group refuses to vacation to anywhere with any kind of internet access
because she knows her husband will work instead of be mentally there with her.
The other employees are single and friendless outside of work.

I'd very much prefer a more relaxed and less exploitative vacation/sick day
system, but I think that a large cultural change has to happen in the US
first. We don't have the luxury of the philosophical position that work is an
intrinsic good-- the real consequences of this position are pretty brutal, and
evident everywhere. Once we accept that work is value-neutral, we can start to
be more relaxed about how much we actually have to work, and when we actually
work. And we might just be a bit more relaxed about staying home when we're
sick, provided that we understand our work is rarely more important than our
health.

------
famousactress
I'm a big fan of vacation policies that lean this way, and have been working
at a shop that has a "no vacation policy, policy" for almost four years. That
said, I'd echo what I've heard a number of people [1] say about this
strategy... that your new challenge is making sure that people take enough
time off and don't feel guilty about it. This is the hidden _upside_ to
commoditizing PTO, no one sweats using it. It's sort of perceived as a
liquidized resource. In an environment without any rules or even vocabulary
around time off, it can be a little bit discomforting to take a two week trip
or go through with long-weekend plans in a crunch time, etc.

That said, I vastly prefer it to the alternative.. Just want to encourage
teams that go down this road to not use these vacation policies as an
accidental excuse not to pay attention to and discuss time off and whether
it's working out for everyone as well as you'd hope or expect!

[1] My first exposure to this sentiment: [http://www.amazon.com/Up-
Organization-Corporation-Stifling-S...](http://www.amazon.com/Up-Organization-
Corporation-Stifling-Strangling/dp/0787987751)

[Edit - Just feel the need to plug harder - Seriously, go read Townsend's
book. Published in 1970 and it (unfortunately) still reads incredibly forward
thinking. It's basically Rework , written 35 years ago (with only respect to
JF and DHH, I really enjoyed Rework as well).]

~~~
beat
Indeed. I was talking to my lawyer about having a no vacation policy policy,
and he said I would need to set a mandatory _minimum_ vacation, and make sure
employees take a certain number of days off.

His case in point example was me. He pointed out that I work all the time and
never take proper vacations (I just had my first one in over two years, and
even that was half devoted to a startup conference).

~~~
famousactress
Please don't take this the wrong way, but until we stop humblebragging about
not taking vacation the problem of equating hours to output won't go away. Not
that it's even intentional, it's just the cultural norm lately to give lip
service to the idea that overworking is a bad thing but I don't see evidence
that most of us _mean_ it... it's all "Gosh, I'm the _worst_ , I never take
time off."

~~~
Touche
I didn't take the comment as bragging. At least I hope it wasn't meant that
way. If the boss doesn't take vacations it makes the employees feel like they
shouldn't take (many) either.

~~~
beat
Exactly. I realize that as the founder/CEO, I set an example for employees. I
don't want it to be a bad example. And this is a problem in part because
crazed workaholic is kind of wrapped up with the founder mindset, but it's a
rotten trait for employees.

------
nevinera
I've worked at a shop with 'unlimited time off'. Do you know how much time off
I took in the 5 months I was there? 2 hours. That made me the slacker, as the
only non-management developer to take any at all.

Focusing on 'what needs to be accomplished' is a great idea, in theory. But in
practice, only management has any reasonable way to _compare_ how much people
are actually getting done. Those being managed cannot take any time off
without at every step wondering 'Am I taking too much time off? Did I get
everything done they wanted done?'

I have no doubt that it's possible to create a culture in which unlimited
vacation time can work well, but the _rule_ is not the solution, and the
_culture_ would work with or without it.

~~~
vincentkriek
That's my big beef with "unlimited" time off. I think it will pressure people
in taking as less time off than the rest to not look like you are slacking.

I have 5 weeks off a year, and any days I don't use expire (most of them, I
can take one week to next year). I can't have them paid out, unless I have a
big deadline and can prove I wasn't able to take time off. This way everybody
takes up (more) than enough holidays.

------
imjared
As much as I loved wowing my corporate friends with the "unlimited vacation"
perk of my previous job, I always struggled because there was always work to
be done so I always felt some sort of pressure because using my vacation meant
I was inherently saying "yeah, I know there's still work but you guys can
handle it, I'm going to play." I get that this isn't a perfect mindset since
that's part of being on a team and you have to expect people to share
responsibility but that's how I felt and in talking to others and reading
about unlimited vacation policies, I don't think I'm alone.

When I left my first job that had a generous but still limited vacation
policy, I got a nice sized check paying me back for my unused vacation. I
never felt like I was restricted from taking vacation and I definitely liked
the money that actually ended up paying for the week off I took between jobs.

------
rayiner
Having a flexible system is great, but what speaks louder than the corporate
policy is the corporate culture. Unless you have a culture of people taking
vacation days, then an unlimited vacation policy will degenerate into a tacit
understanding that nobody is free to take time off.

At my previous employer, we had a four week vacation policy, and everybody
took their four weeks, and the more senior people made a point of it. To a
great degree, this culture has to be instilled from the top. If the guy with
the corner office isn't taking his vacation days, nobody will feel comfortable
doing so.

------
WalterSear
This is ridiculous.

Vacation times aren't mandated in order to manage employees - they are are
mandated in order to give them authority and to require their managers to
manage around their employees vacation time. By providing the employees
express, written authority to override their managers, they force vacation
time to be addressed.

So, yes, this is kindergarten, and yes, be happy that the overall system is
set up to mandate vacations. Otherwise, there will be no vacations.

------
Touche
The nice thing about having a set number of vacation days is that there is an
expectation that you'll use them. Having "unlimited" means you're expected to
use them when you've gotten your work done and there is a lull. Except in many
jobs, startups in particular, there is never a lull. So any time you take off
you aren't "getting stuff done" and potentially look bad. The result, in my
experience, is more frequent, shorter vacations like long weekends.

------
dcsommer
I'd like to plug the policy my friend's startup is using. Unlimited vacation
_plus_ mandatory vacation. [https://sourcegraph.com/blog/mandatory-
vacation](https://sourcegraph.com/blog/mandatory-vacation)

I think this strikes a good balance of establishing a culture of taking
vacation while allowing people to take off the time they need.

------
cozuya
The response to "we have unlimited vacation" in an interview should always be
"how much did YOU take last year?". You'll almost always get an uncomfortable
silence and then "oh I don't know, I didn't really keep track..."

------
apulanta
Only ten days off per year? Damn! We have 45-54 days of paid vacation or one
can have 30-36 days off + take the rest (15-18) vacation days in cash. On the
other hand Finnish SW developer's salary is lower than US SW dev's.

------
gms7777
I think there are certain workplaces which have the culture where this would
work as intended but in most, it would probably end with people taking less
time, and feeling bitter and resentful about it. If anything, there should be
a vacation day minimum. You can give people flexibility in how much time they
take off and when, but they should take at least X days off per year. That way
there is a standard set that it is okay to take the time off when you need it.

------
apercu
Some people are uncomfortable talking about money. Others are uncomfortable
talking about vacation time. I think it helps to have some sort of loose
policy, because people are so different. I watched a situation where there
were 3 people doing the same role. One had seniority, took a lot of time off
to travel (some of this unpaid) and the other two were left dealing with the
extra workload.

It's hard to have a non-policy policy because people are so different.

I do agree with the article though, because I feel like the 8 hours a day, 5
days a week "norm" for knowledge workers is kind of silly. You're probably
getting 5 hours a day of really productive time. The other 3 hours they are
banking/scheduling/handling the business of life or taking a mental break.

Factory shift work is probably better suited to the structure described, but
that work is quickly becoming extinct.

The key point in the article is that you have to talk about it openly, and
don't shame people in to not taking time off.

Sometimes (especially with client facing roles) sound judgement is the most
important characteristic of an employee. If they don't get mental breaks every
few months, they might show poor judgement.

------
grmarcil
The article's comparison of work vs college vacation/attendance policies is
flawed from the start. The overlooked difference is that in college, you are
paying the school. Of course they don't care if you come to class.

The fact that pre-college schooling has attendance rules is irrelevant; in
that situation, pupils are minors and therefore the school is (in the USA at
least) legally responsible for them during the school day (in loco parentis).

With work, the company is paying you in exchange for your time. You've agreed
to come to work every day, and the company pays you a salary in return. A
vacation policy is a negotiable benefit for the employee, just like anything
else in your compensation and benefits package. If you have a no-policy
vacation policy, you are basically at the whim of your employer (some handle
these non-policies well, others not), but if you have a real policy, you are
entitled to take those days, just like your health care, paycheck, retirement
contributions, etc.

------
brixon
[http://www.businessinsider.com/pros-and-cons-of-unlimited-
va...](http://www.businessinsider.com/pros-and-cons-of-unlimited-
vacation-2013-12)

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/01/unlimited-
vacation-...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/01/unlimited-vacation-
_n_4174974.html)

We have "unlimited" sick time, but the manager gets to decide when too much is
too much. When the manager decides you used too much then it is unpaid leave.
It works ok most of the time, but the company will force you to short term
disability after being out a week.

I am a bigger fan of PTO. Lump all vacation, sick and holiday into one big
number and let me deal with it as I see fit. That way I know everyone is
getting a fair shake.

------
jedberg
I prefer to call it "unmetered" vacation, not "unlimited".

I've been working with "unmetered" vacation for 3 years now and I've taken
more time off than I ever did when I was earning 30 days a year of PTO.

~~~
toomuchtodo
But when you're taking time off, are you truly unplugged?

I'm almost finished with the hiring cycle for an SF startup with unlimited
vacation policy and where all work is remote; my current butt-in-seat job
gives me 5 weeks/year off. How am I going to know if I can truly take 5
weeks/year off (or more) at the new place until I get there? I'd rather have
the ability to travel but still be working most of the time than have limited
time off but have to be in a fixed location constantly.

------
cpher
How do you guys differentiate between "per-hour" consultancies and product dev
companies? For those who have worked in both environments with a "free
vacation" policy, what is your experience?

EDIT: The reason I ask is I'm curious to know if the pressure to bill by the
hour is as powerful as working to "build the next feature" for a product. The
_customer_ is different in each case. Does this make a difference?

------
throwaway_aoeu
If you're building a startup that you hope might get acquired, it's worthwhile
to establish and document a more traditional PTO plan. When a company is
acquired, the hours that you've accrued are typically credited to your balance
in the acquiring company's plan, so if you have zero accrued hours at the time
of acquisition, you're going to end up with a zero balance post-acquisition,
too.

------
bshimmin
I looked on LinkedIn to see how many employees Mindsense has; the answer was
1-10 (perhaps that's right, perhaps it's wrong, but it's probably in the right
ballpark). I'm sure their policy of "0 vacation days. 0 sick days. 0 holidays"
works at that scale, where everyone is some sort of lynchpin product manager
with a vested interest in the business, but the reality is that, in a larger
organisation, there will inevitably be people who are not massively focused on
the work at hand, and who treat their job, really, as a means to an end - a
way of passing some time between the hours of 9am and 5pm in order to generate
enough money to pay their bills and save up for some holidays that they
actually enjoy.

For a significant portion of those people, offering that kind of flexibility
would be a disaster, because they would see it as carte blanche to do as
little as they could possibly get away with doing, with as many days sick or
on holiday/vacation as they liked. These people aren't motivated by the work
they're doing, in any meaningful sense, and they would just as well not be
doing it at all if that option were presented to them.

Sure, you could say "don't hire those people", but larger organisations need
lots of bodies to fill often quite dull jobs, and you can't really afford to
treat those people "as adults", whatever that means.

------
rch
> you’re told exactly where to be and when

Um, no. This is not universally required. I once answered an email about an
impromptu afternoon meeting from a beach in Mexico - a quick phone call sorted
out the one pressing detail, and the meeting was just rescheduled.

We work in a pretty great industry, so might as well optimize for it.

------
michaelochurch
_Then, you graduate, enter what they call “the real world” with “a real job”
and you’re told exactly where to be and when. Exactly what days you will have
off. How much you’re allowed to get sick. How the game of accruing time off
works_

It's pretty amazing to me that people tolerate the evolutionary step backward
between college and the travails of an entry-level grunt in "the real world".

One really disgusting trend that's coming along is pooling sick days into
vacation, which is of course never advertised when people take the job. So
they think they're getting 3-4 weeks of vacation but they're actually getting
less. I worked at a company that pulled that bullshit once, and because no one
took sick days, the result was that _everyone_ had a constant cold for 5
months out of the year.

------
dabernathy89
I'm all for flexible vacation / time off - that's how my department works, and
it's been great. Flexible hours are highly dependent on the nature of your
employees' work, though. Some jobs require you to be in the office when
everyone else is in the office for calls, meetings, emails, etc. My wife's
employer technically allows flexible work hours, but most people gravitate
toward 9-6 because they usually need to be available to each other.

------
jmscharff2
It really is interesting when you think of it that way, you have a lot of
rules in school. Then college you have nothing, then onto the real world where
you have a job and all of the sudden you have a lot of rules again. It would
be interesting for larger companies to see if their productivity increases if
they follow a structure like this or something similar, or if productivity
takes a dive once you allow people more freedom.

~~~
mzd348
I think the difference is that you're paying (a lot) to be in college, while
you're being paid (hopefully a lot) to do your job. So it's not realistic to
expect to be treated the same way in both situations.

------
buckbova
At my company we switched to a 0 sick day policy. Within 3 months we were back
to the allotted 1 week of sick days.

It turns out we quintupled the number of sick days for the same period as the
year before. Draw your own conclusion, but I say workers cannot be trusted to
manage this themselves.

It might work in a shop of 5 - 20 folks but at we are and over 10 times that,
it is untenable.

~~~
jedberg
If you have metered vacation days but unlimited sick days, of course that is
going to happen. You have to unmeter both or it doesn't work.

------
dalore
Or how about you just get paid for hours worked? Like a contractor. You want
holiday, sure take as much as you want and don't feel guilty.

