
What Germans Are Reading - objections
https://www.the-american-interest.com/2019/08/03/what-germans-are-reading/
======
ekianjo
My German is rusty but:

> Toleranz: Einfach Schwer (Tolerance Isn’t Easy)

is an improper translation. That's "Tolerance: Simply Difficult" and that
translates fine in English too since you can keep the same style while being
accurate.

~~~
DoreenMichele
I might translate it:

Tolerance: Simply Hard

(Or _Easily Hard_ )

It more closely mirrors the German cadence and I've generally translated
_schwer_ as _hard._ I always understood _di­ffizil_ to be the correct
translation of the word _difficult._

Granted, I learned most of my German from my mother (plus a little self study
and I lived there for nearly four years in my twenties), not in school. There
are no doubt substantial gaps in my knowledge

~~~
codeflo
> I always understood di­ffizil to be the correct translation of the word
> difficult.

I think that’s misleading or even wrong. Source: native speaker.

First, it’s a very rare word that would definitely stand out, even in an
already formal conversation. More importantly, “diffizil” is mostly reserved
for problems that require a lot of fine motor skills or finesse. It would be
wrong to say that lifting some large boulder is “diffizil”, for example,
except as a joke. You might use it for repairing a watch or a complicated
negotiation (“eine diffizile Angelegenheit”), however.

~~~
posterboy
Ha, I had thought that _diffizil_ resembled _filigran_ in meaning, but wasn't
sure that weren't just me. I reasoned that _diffizil_ would be a diffizil
word, by the sound of it, used by (to take your example) watch makers dealing
with delicate problems.

------
DanielleMolloy
As far as I know the Spiegel list, which has a lot of media and book shop
presence does _not_ count Amazon. The GfK in German has an exklusive deal with
Amazon for data, and they do not deliver the Spiegel list data. The Spiegel
list also uses an additional voting scheme among their journalists.

I have found the Spiegel list a bit weird for years, it contains a lot of
highly light reading or polemic stuff like that guy yelling at today’s youth.
That it does not include Amazon data explains quite something.

~~~
s9w
Also the Spiegel list removes books it doesn't like.

[https://www.welt.de/kultur/article167043384/Spiegel-
verteidi...](https://www.welt.de/kultur/article167043384/Spiegel-verteidigt-
Streichung-von-Finis-Germania.html)

~~~
RandomBookmarks
Please be accurate. Correct would be: They removed a book they consider anti-
semitic. That is quite different from what you stated.

But great to include the source.

~~~
lixtra
Funny enough the owner of Der Spiegel was himself considered an anti-semite by
the Wiesenthal Center[1] a few years ago which stirred quite some debate back
then.

[1] [https://m.jpost.com/International/Wiesenthal-dean-labels-
Aug...](https://m.jpost.com/International/Wiesenthal-dean-labels-Augstein-
anti-Semite)

~~~
klmr
He isn’t (and never was) the owner of Spiegel. He’s the son of the Spiegel’s
founder and former editor in chief.

------
ekianjo
Besides the obvious sampling issue (The Spiegel as a reference), not sure
there anything interesting in that list, because it's a reflection of:

\- What is published in the German language (much smaller than in the English
corpus)

\- What is published at all (choices from local publishers)

\- What matches the political/media agenda of the day/year: people are well
known to read about the topics that is being talked about thru the numerous
media channels they consume.

What is published and what sells is not always a reflection of the actual
interests of the population at large - an easy proof is to show that it
changes drastically from one year to another, akin to fashion more than
anything else.

~~~
LeanderK
I am not sure what your comment is suggesting? Literally the third sentence
is:

> Editor’s Note: This is the first in a series looking at the books, authors,
> and ideas capturing the zeitgeist in various countries this summer.

Isn't capturing the zeitgeist exactly trying to understand what's occupying
the thoughts of a country? Also I think you're greatly exaggerating the speed
of "fashion". These are all issues we have been talking about for a long, long
time. From tolerance [1] to education [2]. I don't see at all how this
arcticle talks about a irrelevant topics, I can assure you these are all
isssues we have been discussing for a longer time now.

[1] since the refugee crisis it's one of the main themes of political
discourse. We also experience a rise of the right and far-right and many are
not sure how to react to this change of the policial landscape and where
tolerance ends. I was quite active in politics 4 years ago and I remember it
being important back then (which was even before the refugee crisis) because I
had contact with a group organizing a counter demonstration to a far-right
gathering.

[2] During my time in school i was in one of the first in a new system and
when I finished (5 years ago) many switched back to the old system. Our pisa-
scores are still a major point for public dicsussion.

~~~
luckylion
> since the refugee crisis it's one of the main themes of political discourse.

That's very recent, so it may be fashion, who knows whether tolerance &
diversity will still be a major topic in 2025.

From my personal experience, education is a big topic, but mostly top-down.
It's in politics, it's in the media, it's in literature, but it's not like
average parents discuss the education system a lot. They're involved with
details, but I've never witnessed a discussion at dinner or a party about the
education system (while it'll quickly go to politics, economics etc, and most
of my friends have children of school age).

~~~
LeanderK
I am 24 years old. Maybe we have a vastly different notion of recent, but
merkels decision was 2015, which is nearly 4 years ago.

Maybe it's really a matter of definition or "recent" and "fashion", but I am
not sure whether tolerance & diversity will still be a major topic in 2025. I
hope not, 2025 is in 6 years and would like to see that we have moved on and
got to a mutual agreement in our society.

2025 would be 10 years after the migrant crisis! I don't think we absolutly
need to drag every topic out for whole generations to be not counted as
"fashion" or "temporary".

> From my personal experience, education is a big topic, but mostly top-down.
> It's in politics, it's in the media, it's in literature, but it's not like
> average parents discuss the education system a lot. They're involved with
> details, but I've never witnessed a discussion at dinner or a party about
> the education system (while it'll quickly go to politics, economics etc, and
> most of my friends have children of school age).

I don't know if you're german? This is not what I experienced, like i said, i
experienced two changes of the school system during my education, which lead
to a lot of discussion. Also, while i am now out of school and in university
for some time, the school system is still a topic of discussion in my extended
family due to parents having to choose in which school their kids they should
go. We have some private schools in germany that follows a different
philosophy (and I really mean philosophy, there's a whole educational theory
behind them), the "Montessori education". A part of my family is very
convinced that the montessori philosophy is superior to the more rigid and
less free philosophy in the public school system. This is not my point of view
(I went to a public school), which I am willing to defend. This leads to real
discussions over dinner or in the evening.

------
mxfh
There are books and there are objects to back up your established beliefs in
exchange for some cash without exposing you to any self-critical thoughts.

Of course that is a long etablished genre, but lately it gets a bit too
obvious regarding any socio-political sentiment, relationship, diet or
parenting style[1].

Germany's book and magazine market is also drifting into that category a lot,
as basic information gathering shits more and more towards "free" online
sources.

[1] as stated in the OP, Winterhoff is contrarian to most current research and
just peddles his own theories for some decades now, as well as being a well
booked pundit in talk shows.

------
Havoc
More curious about the topic.

Is there some particular reason to be interested in what Germans are reading?
As opposed to say Swedes?

~~~
stankypickle
Germany's infrastructure has been stressed in recent years by immigration and
other factors. The two books that the article places a spotlight on are: 1)
"The Dumbing Down of Germany" and 2) "Tolerance Isn’t Easy" (as roughly
translated within the article). These books represent the german people's
response to that.

The first book, "The Dumbing Down of Germany", suggests a frustration with the
decline of their education system -- something that Germany has traditionally
valued highly. This is particularly concerning because sentiments like this
lead to the rise of Hitler and eventually WWII.

The second book, "Tolerance Isn’t Easy", offers comfort with the influx of
immigrants. This may be viewed as an attempt to stymie the tension.
Alternatively, this may be viewed as an anesthetic that is wearing off. As of
checking today this title is actually 13th on the list.

To answer your question. Why Germans as opposed to someone else? I suppose it
is partially because Germany is a big player in the EU. It is particularly
concerning because of Germany's role in WWII. To some it seems like things are
trending in the same direction. As stated in the last paragraph: "Germany has
been undergoing dramatic social change since the fall of the Berlin Wall,
which occurred 30 years ago this November... Fear-mongering arguments against
immigration and an Islamic takeover continue to attract scores of German
citizens whose future economic prospects are less than rosy. Regardless, one
cannot help but detect the political vestiges of an old GDR intolerance in its
novel political manifestations."

~~~
Havoc
Well I speak German and nationality wise am too. But I grew up in a decidedly
English speaking context.

Hence my interest in hn's focus on Germans. It's not so much what's happening
in germany more than why would western english media analyse german reading
trends.

That is _not_ a question of what's happening in germany...but rather one of
english speaking media somehow deemed this interesting. Why?

------
ekianjo
> Since then, the entire eastern half of the country has been brought into the
> fold of Western liberal capitalism—but not entirely successfully.
> Unemployment is still higher in the east, and brain drain to the west
> remains common.

Not sure how to understand this. I have traveled to the DDR and to East
Germany after the reunification many times, and by far and large life is much
better than it ever was. People can actually buy cars instead of Trabants. Of
course an economic gap has long lasting consequences (the long tail of
economic policies) but what you should point out is how much better it is now
than it was during the DDR era.

~~~
dgellow
Successful industries and top universities are in majority in the Western side
of the country, thus people looking for higher salaries or more job
opportunities leave the Eastern side. Over time that results in important
disparities.

I don’t believe that the article is saying that the situation was better
during DDR time.

~~~
ekianjo
My point is simply that this kind of adjustment is likely to take a century or
even more. Look at the long lasting impact of economic disparities in the US
between the South and the North as another example.

Also, we would need to check in the economic History of Germany if the Eastern
Lander of Germany were not always poorer compared to the Western Lander. The
large economic output of the Rhur should already have tipped the economic
scale way before the DDR.

~~~
freeflight
There's also the fact that the Berlin split forced a whole lot of rather
successful German companies to relocate from East to somewhere else in the
West.

Siemens was originally started and HQ'ed in Berlin, until the wall split
happened, making them relocate to the south.

Afaik this is the case for a couple of other rather successfull Western German
companies.

------
WA
There has been at least one book about how "Germany/Germans are getting
dumber", "The Big Crash is Coming" or something similar on the Spiegel
Bestseller list at all times. So far, the big crash didn't come yet. These
books don't talk about a market correction or a financial crisis like in 2008,
but a total economic crash, because "a finite world can't have unlimited
growth", because "capitalism", because "climate change".

People don't feel rich. In many families, both partners have a job. Median
incomes didn't increase much in the last 10-15 years. With an after-tax
monthly income of 5,160€ as a family (or 3,440€ as a single), you belong to
the top 10% [1] (translates to roughly 100,000€ / 70,000€ pre-tax anually).
The median monthly net income is 1,869€ (roughly around 35,000€ pre-tax
anually).

At the same time, people are highly suspicious of the stock market. People
have less time for their kids, which spend more time in the educational
system. So people wonder if the educational system is really that great for
their kids.

I think this is interesting. It's like a vicious cycle: According to [2], 23%
of Germans own stocks (although I remember that this number used to be around
15% a few years ago). So, people read books about how everything is going to
crash down soon, because they're suspicious of the stock market (and to be
able to say "told you so" afterwards). At the same time, these books reinforce
the idea that owning stocks is risky.

Most people would rather buy a home, but houses got very expensive in cities
in the last 10 years. In major cities, a house for a family of 4 would cost
around 800,000€ and more, which is quite expensive for the low salaries of 90%
of the people.

Then, major newspapers now have articles about the climate crisis every day.
There's the uncertainty of the Brexit. There is uncertainty about immigrants,
but also uncertainty and fear of the rise of right-wing parties in Europe (and
the AfD in Germany).

So, we have books about how "the system" is shit, how "the crash is coming",
how "Germany gets dumber all the time", how "something needs to change". Add
some fears about the before-mentioned topics and there's your new book every
few months, same content, different cover.

[1]: [https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2019-08/institut-der-
deutsche...](https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2019-08/institut-der-deutschen-
wirtschaft-einkommen-singlehaushalt-gehalt)

[2]: [https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2019-08/geldanlage-sparen-
ver...](https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2019-08/geldanlage-sparen-verbraucher-
zinsen-bankenverband)

~~~
thecleaner
I read somewhere that the German billionaire class controls 1T dollars. Why do
people earn only 5k after tax ? There seem to be very little opportunities for
investment in stock market. Real estate prices too seem insane.

~~~
petre
Real estate prices are insane probably partly due to ECB negative interest
rates which make buying on credit very attractive. I read an article on HN
last week about zero interest 20y loans in Denmark. The DKK is pegged to the
Euro.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20647651](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20647651)

Add to that all time lows (zero and below) for German bond yields which has
bleak consequences for long time savers (future pensioners). Germany is a
nation of savers.

Swiss 10y bonds are at -1%.

We are living in interesting times.

~~~
thecleaner
So what's a good strategy here ? Buy stuff on credit but sell to who ?

~~~
petre
Dunno, but normally it's not a great idea to buy real estate when prices are
insane and property taxes are high. Also if you buy on credit the asset is the
creditor's until you pay it off, so you can't sell.

~~~
hef19898
Not in the case of real estate. There you might have to repay the outstanding
debt immediately including any losses of the bank. Unless you manage to sell
the financing along the real estate. For private persons, investors and
developers are different I think in terms of credit conditions.

------
qwsxyh
> Michael Winterhoff’s Deutschland Verdummt claims that German children today
> “have no tolerance for frustration, and they avoid all exertion.” By the
> time they graduate, half of them still “have the psyche of a small child.”
> The author of eight previous books on childhood development, Winterhoff’s
> primary concern is that children today have become “tyrants.” They don’t
> know proper boundaries; they have not been taught how to submit to parental
> and social authority. And this, Winterhoff says, is entirely the fault of
> parents themselves. Beginning in the 1990s, they have treated their children
> like friends and partners instead of acting like authority figures and moral
> guides, preferring to allow children the freedom to develop and move at
> their own pace instead of submitting to the adult order of things.

Old man yells at cloud.

~~~
C1sc0cat
"not been taught how to submit" And a bet he wrote that unironically.

I remember a documentary on Berlin and Berlinners have a slang term there that
basically means "you have been controlled" when one of the many petty
bureaucrats, pulls you up over some trivial infraction

~~~
epaga
You may be mistaking "kontrolliert werden" for "being controlled" when it
actually means "being checked".

Reminds me of when American friends were SHOCKED by a political poster that
quipped "Vertrauen ist gut, Kontrolle ist besser" \- they thought it meant
"Trust is good, control is better", but it actually means "Trust is good, but
checking things is better"

~~~
jotm
Wait until they hear the German national anthem (well, the first verse) :D

~~~
jcbrand
I assume you're referring to "Deutschland über alles" (Germany over
everything).

It's no longer the first verse due to the Nazi history, but it doesn't come
from that time.

It actually comes from the mid 1800s (IIRC) when Germany didn't exist as a
unified state. People lived in many different kingdoms and principalities and
many yearned for a German state.

The anthem comes from this time and this line is supposed to mean that Germany
is preferable to the various smaller states of that time.

Source: "Germany, memories of a nation"
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23113270-germany](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23113270-germany)

~~~
jotm
Yes, yes, I got that explanation.

But the first time a foreigner hears it, it sounds a lot like "Germany over
everyone in the world", which can carry _the implication_ :P

------
romaaeterna
I can't stand reading modern Germans. They generally read and think just like
English, for one thing, so that you can barely tell you've entered another
language.

It is pleasant, however to retreat to the 19th-century Germans, and bathe in
their erudition and learning, from the period before the world went sour.

~~~
_delirium
There is still a fairly regular stream of German-language "serious" monographs
coming out, written by philosophers, media theorists, etc. Not usually found
on the Spiegel bestseller list, though.

~~~
romaaeterna
Indeed, the Germans remain good at "serious". It's just much more English-
language derivative than it was pre-WWII. Today, I'd call their academic
thought 5 years behind English-language academic thought instead of 5 years
ahead of like it used to be.

