
Why American Workers Now Dress So Casually - pmcpinto
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/05/history-of-business-casual/526014/?single_page=true
======
zw123456
I remember when I entered the work force back in 1978 right out of college and
went to work for Bell Labs. We were required to wear a suit, ties and white
shirt. You were not allowed to hang your jacket over your chair; it had to be
hung in the closet. You could smoke at your desk, I am not a smoker but many
others took advantage of that. You could smoke in conference rooms during
meetings and in elevators and many did so (See Mad Men).

It has been very interesting watching the norms shift over the last almost 40
years. Women and minorities filling the ranks, casual attire, smoking
prohibitions (all very good things in my view).

One, funny interesting side story, if you will indulge this old timer. When I
was in high school, my father was a budding attorney and of course had to wear
a suit, tie and white shirt. My mother was a struggling artist. My father
wanted her to wash and iron his shirts to save money and only have to pay for
the dry cleaning of the shirts. My mother refused (an early feminist perhaps).
They had a huge fight over it. In the end, my Mother relented and agreed to
endure the task. However, in classic passive aggressive style, she
"accidentally" got a red sock in the wash with the shirts turning them a
slight shade of pink. Of course that made them, for that time, unusable ! So
he had to toss them. After that he simply had them laundered. Ever since then
our family calls this ruse "red-socking-it", which basically means
intentionally fucking up to get out of doing something you don't want to do. I
think we can all think of times when someone at work "red-socked-it".

~~~
learc83
>I think we can all think of times when someone at work "red-socked-it".

When I worked at Best Buy years ago, they started making us wear earpieces. I
hated trying to do my job with constant interruptions in my ear, but instead
of telling management I hated it, I pretended to love it.

I started talking over the radio constantly, and I'd end every phrase by
making a white-noise sound and saying over. Eventually the managers took my
radio away, and they thought it was a punishment.

~~~
DonbunEf7
I went to private Catholic school. In theology class, the priest would punish
chatty students by making them eat a dog biscuit in front of the classroom.

I learned which biscuit colors corresponded to which flavors, picked the
least-bad one intentionally, and proceeded to slowly savor it in front of
everybody. After that, he retired the punishment.

~~~
lr4444lr
I shudder to think how many you had to eat to become confident about their
flavor ranking.

~~~
NTripleOne
One of each colour, I'd wager.

------
GuiA
Tangentially related:

I was recently reading the autobiography of the CEO and one of the founders of
Sony, Akio Morita. Sony Japan has been famous for having uniforms, like many
other Japanese companies (which Steve Jobs really liked and wanted to emulate,
except the idea was shot down early on. He did apply the idea to himself
though, which is where his famous look comes from).

Many people would ascribe this as Sony being a typical, paternalistic Asian
company - however, the reality is a bit more subtle. Keep in mind that Sony
was started right after World War 2, in a Tokyo ravaged by years of bombing:

 _" When we started the company, clothing was scarce and expensive on the
black market. People came to work in an odd assortment of gear; returning
soldiers wore bits of their uniform or old-fashioned suits that had been saved
for many years. If a person was fortunate enough to have a good suit, he
didn't want to wear it to the office where he might risk burning a hole in it
with acid or soiling it. Some of our employees just didn't have the money to
invest in a work jacket. So with company money we bought a jacket for everyone
to wear in the office.

Pretty soon these jackets became a symbol of our company family. As the
company prospered, we could have done away with the jackets - we used to have
a summer jacket and a winter one - because we were all being paid and could
afford our own, but everybody seemed to like the idea, and so we just decided
to continue to provide them. In the beginning, we executives had a different
colored name tag from the others, but we eventually adopted the same kind worn
by everyone else.

Today these jackets and tags are being used everywhere, even where class
distinctions made people hesitant to wear them at first. Many of us liked our
blue jackets, and I still wear mine occasionally."_

Akio Morita, Made in Japan

~~~
slededit
Does anyone know where I can find a picture of these uniforms? Google image
search happily returns a picture of Kim Jong Il and steve jobs, but no actual
images of the damn uniform.

You'd think "sony company uniform" would be pretty easy for a search engine to
search for.

~~~
GuiA
The later uniforms were designed by Issey Miyake, whom Jobs ordered his
turtlenecks from.

Here's one picture of early days Sony where all employees appear to be wearing
the same jacket:

[https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/CorporateInfo/History/SonyHist...](https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/CorporateInfo/History/SonyHistory/8ido18000007kygs-
img/8ido18000007kyn2.gif)

~~~
kcanini
Do you have a version that isn't potato quality?

~~~
canadian_voter
[https://i2.wp.com/www.sopitas.com/wp-
content/uploads/2016/05...](https://i2.wp.com/www.sopitas.com/wp-
content/uploads/2016/05/sony-fundacion-4-e1462649780571.png)

Courtesy Tineye[0]

[0]
[https://www.tineye.com/search/c9d37d27e89b6836f417109fc993ff...](https://www.tineye.com/search/c9d37d27e89b6836f417109fc993ff052d0dba06/?sort=size&order=desc)

------
elihu
As a programmer, it's tempting to think that if we were still operating under
1950's social norms, I'd be the guy wearing a suit, but realistically I'd
probably be the guy wearing coveralls with my name stitched on the front.

Maybe part of the problem with dress codes is that we (or most of us) aren't
the self-employed white-collar professionals who have much to gain by looking
successful to their customers. We're actually the blue-collar assembly-line
factory workers. No one outside our immediate circle of co-workers has any
reason to know or care what we look like.

~~~
ElderScrolls
This. Gone are the days of twenty-tiered hierarchies. And as companies
outsource, disrupt, and automate into tiny modules of CTOs/CEOs selling
products, it becomes less and less important as social structures break down
in this gig economy. I think the future will view suit and ties as just
another individual expression of taste among the sea of new ideas competing
for paying customers - who may or may not really care how you look.

------
canadian_voter
Friend of mine just got a new tech job with one of those boring old Fortune
100 companies. Wore a suit to the interview; the interviewer told him to dress
it down for the job.

So he wore slacks, a belt and a button up shirt on the first day; people
seemed really nervous around him, like he was there to audit them.

So he meets the people he's going to work with: his "boss" is in a stained
t-shirt, shorts, no shoes, super casual. I mean like 20 years ago he wouldn't
have been able to buy a soda in a beach-town convenience store. Looks at my
friend like he's from Mars.

A few weeks in and my friend still over-dresses. I mean, his shirt has a
COLLAR for christsakes. It looks like it has been IRONED for the love-of-god.
We'll see how long he lasts. Maybe when he gets more comfortable he'll start
wearing ripped jeans and a pink floyd t-shirt. We'll see.

~~~
Spooky23
When I interviewed for my 2nd out of college job (circa 2000), I happened to
interview on a day where the folks I was interviewing with had a conference,
so they were dressed up. My start date was delayed for some bureaucratic
reason.

Not knowing what the dress code was, I showed up my first day in a suit, and
headed up to the office, which had been moved the week prior. I'm wandering
around looking for my boss, when the Commissioner's secretary (this is a .gov
gig) spots me, and thinks I'm a salesman as they had an issue with salespeople
crashing the place. Nobody can find my boss, and five minutes later, two
policeman show up and escort me out of the building. Thankfully my boss was a
smoker, and rescued me as the cops were kicking me out! :)

The particular division I was in had a pretty eclectic collection of dressers.
The bigshots wore suits or sportsjackets, and most people did the business
casual thing. Then there were the... others. One dude did leather pants and a
massive cowboy hat, there was a male and female tracksuit contingent, and a
few people wearing sweatpants of all things.

~~~
aanm1988
> Nobody can find my boss, and five minutes later, two policeman show up and
> escort me out of the building

They didn't bother to check on the whole "I'm here to start work, my boss is
<T>" ?

~~~
TeMPOraL
Maybe they said: "yeah, right; the two people before you also said they're
meeting <T>, except they weren't" and continued to escort him out.

I mean, if I were asked to escort _a salesman_ out of the building, I'd
immediately assume that they'll be trying to talk their way into staying, so
I'd put my extra assertive face on.

------
dalbasal
Tyler Cowen (in his typical counter-narrative style) suggests casual culture
may anti-dynamism, particularly of the class mobility type.

The argument (which is not fully formed, I think) is that signalling exists
anyway. In a more formal envirnonment, you can signal seriousness or whatnot
by dressing in a good suit to make a cerrtain impression. In a casual
environment, you can't signal with your clothes but that means signals just
become more subtle and nuanced.

I think Cowen is saying that casual culture means social signals are harder to
fake. You might think "great! Meritocracy.*" But, merit is not a drop in
replacement for formal social signals. Informal signals are. What actually
replaces the suit, watch and shiny shoes is p speech, body language (or a
google search revealing your prestigous keynote speech) that one is a member
of a particular group. It's much harder for outsiders to tick the boxes and
blend in.

Interesting thought.

~~~
mseebach
These are the relevant links for the idea:

[http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/05/tyler_cowen_on_1.ht...](http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/05/tyler_cowen_on_1.html)
(about half-way down, search for "casualness")

> * But what I find striking is societies with a lot of upward mobility often
> tend to have strict dress codes. So you see this today with Mormons, at
> Mormon businesses. You see it in Japan in its heyday years--you know, the
> businessman or journeyman suit, they more or less all looked the same.
> There's something about upward mobility where actually clothing is not that
> casual and one is being more formal in trying to impress; and that is a [?].
> But the thing about being casual is it actually makes it harder for people
> to prove themselves.*

And a follow-up:
[http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/05/inf...](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/05/informal-
dress-social-mobility-sicilian-perspective.html)

> _When I [a correspondent, not Cowen] was a young associate at the biggest
> law firm in Rome, casual friday was the time when my Sicilian provincial
> middle-lower class background was most transparent. I didn’t have the money
> for smart but impressive casual clothing. But above all I didn’t have the
> cultural and social capital to know how to dress casual in the right way._

In general, social norms often play a substantial role as a level playing
field. The people who benefit from their removal are those who can quickly
understand and adapt to the unarticulated, informal rules that govern all
human interaction. I'm happy I don't have to wear a suit and tie every day
(and slightly sad that I _never_ have, but that's a different discussion), but
let's not pretend that "no dresscode" is actually to be taken literally if you
have any intention of advancing in the hierarchy that we pretend isn't there.

~~~
austenallred
> So you see this today with Mormons, at Mormon businesses

As a Mormon, I thought it might be interesting to point out that to some
degree that's actually part of our theology. Basically a dress code that's
strict enough that everyone is equal, this de-emphasizing dress and clothing.

In a Mormon temple you're required to wear very simple all white clothing
(plain white shirt, tie and pants for men, plain white dress for women, plain
white socks and plain white shoes) - both as a sign of an attempt to be "pure"
but also it's noted that everyone dresses exactly the same, causing for less
focus on dress and external things.

~~~
drpgq
Wow. The same as the Guilty Remnant.

------
creepydata
>Zuckerberg explained: “I really want to clear my life to make it so that I
have to make as few decisions as possible about anything except how to best
serve [Facebook’s] community.”

Interesting enough Obama said the exact same thing about his suit choices.

“You’ll see I wear only gray or blue suits,” [Obama] said. “I’m trying to pare
down decisions. I don’t want to make decisions about what I’m eating or
wearing. Because I have too many other decisions to make.”(1)

So decision fatigue doesn't need to go hand in hand with super casual.

(1) [http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2012/10/michael-lewis-
profile...](http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2012/10/michael-lewis-profile-
barack-obama)

~~~
pcurve
"Zuckerberg explained: “I really want to clear my life to make it so that I
have to make as few decisions as possible about anything except how to best
serve [Facebook’s] community."

Most likely he just doesn't enjoy fashion. Some people love fashion, shopping
clothes, figuring out what do dress, and derive tremendous joy from them.

Zuckerberg and Obama aren't one of them. At least Obama is being more honest
about the reasoning, while Zuckerberg is just spinning it.

~~~
diegoprzl
Pragmatism is a good principle but as you say there are persons who enjoy
clothing itself as a form of art and self-expression. Casual/minimalism (as
jeans+tshirt only) in clothing is not the rational choice for everyone.

As an example: Someone who doesn't particularly enjoy music could advocate
that as a means to make fewer decisions and not waste time in non-adaptive
behavior he doesn't listen to music. If the ingroup has similar tastes then
it's converted into a "truth" and non-conformity prejudiced.

Overall I think that the intelligent thing is to dress according to what is
expected/acceptable. A lot of people seems to think that the move to casual
dress is some kind of new achieved freedom and that we're growing out of being
biased against other's persons clothing. The reality, as posts here can
attest, is that it was simply a change in dressing code. There is still a
bias, now it's just placed in the more "formal" clothing.

I personally prefer tailored/formal clothing. But as casual dressers were
discriminated in the 60s-70s so I would be in the current workplace if I
dressed as I desired. The solution is simple: Dress as expected in work and as
you like in your personal life. We as a species have not grown out of
groupthink yet.

~~~
coldtea
> _I personally prefer tailored /formal clothing. But as casual dressers were
> discriminated in the 60s-70s so I would be in the current workplace if I
> dressed as I desired._

Would you though? Because tailored suits are a casual hipster staple nowadays
too. You can meet a guy with huge victorian mustache and beard and a fine suit
and they're a graphic designer or something....

~~~
ghaff
I agree it's not quite the same thing. At one point not wearing the required
jacket and tie was just grounds for dusmissal. Now "overdressing" in some
manner is just eccentric. Of course, not everyone has the luxury of being
eccentric.

~~~
coldtea
I guess in those cases the tuxedo t-shirt is the best compromise...

------
gumby
I find these sartorial/sumptuary rules fascinating. My kid (age 19) is a
snappy dresser which I (working in the Valley since I was 18, 30-odd years
ago) pretty much wear whatever my hand falls on first, typically T shirts and
shorts.

He says it's a status thing: I have status (within the community I work with)
and so can afford to not give a shit about my clothing. While service workers
(not gardeners, but sales people, lawyers, doctors, janitors, finance people,
waiters, etc) all have to wear a uniform of one sort or another.

I wonder if he's right because when I am in Japan or Europe I dress better and
do dress up for dinner.

I heard an interesting explanation for SF's acceptance of a much wider norm of
behavior: the claim was that it goes back to the gold rush: that crazy person
might just have an ounce or two of gold in his or her pocket.

~~~
jldugger
It's kind of a mixture of clothing as a status uniform and rejection of that
norm. Lawyers, managers and bankers wear suits and display their white collar
status, a high position in the social hierarchy. Salespeople continue with
suits as a form of mimickery -- you won't get thrown out of the building quite
as fast with a suit versus a hoodie or polo. But the image of suits in the
workplace has been tainted with corporate looting, fraud, deception and
mismanagement. Dressing like you work for Goldman Sachs is akin to declaring
those behaviors as an aspiration.

The causal dress counter-culture blurs the status lines that dress codes would
otherwise draw. It reflects a mentality that people want leaders (or maybe
even to be leaders) who are judged by the quality ideas, execution, and
outcomes, versus their position in the org chart. Or the abolition of leaders
entirely, holocratic style.

It's true that at some level, Zuckerberg has enough status to show up to
Facebook offices in a hoodie, and he's rich enough that even if investors gave
him the boot he'd be well off. But I don't imagine most programmers showing up
to work in hoodies do to broadcast how important they are.

------
Avshalom
Alternate theory: the longer we aren't England the more we recognize that
three layers of wool isn't a very practical outfit.

I mean shit Miami's winters are warmer than London's summers

~~~
bitwize
Not all of the USA is Miami. London is balmy compared to Boston.

~~~
simonh
Which is crazy a Boston's latitude is about the same as Rome. It came as a
real surprise when so realised how far south the US is compared to the UK, or
in fact most of Europe. Miami is the same latitude as Luxor in Egypt.

~~~
distances
Born in the Nordics, I never felt I'm living very far in the north as it was
south of the Arctic Circle and all. But there really aren't big populations
that far up -- it was well north of Anchorage, for example. Russia has some
inhabited northern places in Siberia like Norilsk, though solely due to the
mining industry.

I guess Europe would look very different without the Gulf Stream.

------
lacampbell
It's something I've noticed as well and something I feel myself starting to
react against. I don't own any t-shirts anymore and now dress almost
exclusively in business casual, whether I'm at work or not. I plan to get
myself a suit tailored this year.

I think the stereo-typical image of the "IT guy" wearing a hoodie or printed
t-shirts isn't a good one, and stops us being taken as seriously as we should
be. I want to be respected as a professional, not ostracized for dressing like
a slob.

~~~
aisidun
I can't take an IT guy in a suit seriously.

~~~
lacampbell
[https://tekkie.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/young-ivan-
suther...](https://tekkie.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/young-ivan-
sutherland.jpg)

[https://diarioti.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Douglas-
Enge...](https://diarioti.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Douglas-
Engelbart-728.jpg)

[http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/jmccolor.jpg](http://www-
formal.stanford.edu/jmc/jmccolor.jpg)

~~~
golergka
You're proving the point: IT guys in suits are from 50 years ago. Of course,
if you meat a real old-timer, you respect him, but if you see a 20-something
who tries to emulate this style, it just looks ridiculous and out of place.

~~~
lacampbell
Then I think that reflects badly on our profession if the idea of us dressing
like professionals is hard for us to take seriously.

We can take lawyers, accountants and business people in suits seriously. But
we're not on their level?

I guess I'd rather look ridiculous and out of place than look the opposite. If
this field is so un-respected, maybe I should make an exit plan anyway.

~~~
TallGuyShort
What is it about a suit that is inherently professional, independent of social
norms? There are objective ways to perform your job better, and there are
cultural gestures that convey respect and dignity, and both fall under the
umbrella of what we call "professionalism". A suit has been one of those
gestures at some times in some cultures / industries. But to insist that it's
professional independent of culture and industry is like someone coming into
my home and insisting one taking their shoes off because in some places that's
a sign of respect. Even if I just told them I prefer they leave their shoes on
because I don't want to talk to a professional who just removed the shoes
they've been working in all day. See how much it would miss the point of a
respectful gesture if they insisted on a gesture that is respectful
_elsewhere_? In many tech offices that have a casual dress code, wearing a
suit when you're not meeting with a customer for whom that's the norm or
something would actually be seen as a disrespectful gesture to your peers, as
though you're disingenuously trying to impress someone. So what makes it
professional?

~~~
lacampbell
I think I may come from a different perspective from you, or indeed many
people here. I probably should have pre-faced with this first.

While I code every day I also part BA. I have a lot of contact with non-
technical people - I am not just in a big office with other members of my
profession.

Basically if I'm talking to people wearing suits/business casual, and I'm
wearing a t-shirts and shorts, they _will_ look down on me. You may decry the
arbitrariness of social norms but they do exist and they do effect your
interaction in a professional setting, whether people in silicon valley think
they should or not.

I want to be respected and I want my field to be respected. If we dress much
worse than other professionals, we send the message that we're not really on
their level.

------
OliverJones

        "the most radical shift in dress standards in human history"
    

OK, let's all hyperventilate. For most of the human history the author's
mentioning, the old Monty Python schtick was the truth.

Q. 'ow do you know he's a king?

A. 'e isn't covered with s$$t.

Seriously, today's business world has customs and status symbols that are just
as rigid as yesterday's. They're just different.

------
minikites
We absolutely still have dress codes, they're just more ambiguous now:

[http://putthison.com/post/144964888828/the-end-of-office-
dre...](http://putthison.com/post/144964888828/the-end-of-office-dress-codes-
the-new-york-times)

>Unless you work in a creative industry and live in a big city (read:
basically NYC), you probably can’t wear anything too fashionable or avant-
garde to work. We’re not talking about Rick Owens, but even somewhat tame
designers such as Robert Geller and Stephan Schneider. And if everyone is
wearing shorts and t-shirts, the sharpest you can look is in chinos. New, open
office spaces still have dress codes – they’re just softly coded as social
norms, not hard written into rulebooks.

>Dressing now follows subtle, in-group views – those who understand them know
how to navigate the corporate world; those who don’t pay a price.

------
johan_larson
I remember speaking with some IBM veterans who had been around long enough to
see the transition from suits and ties to casualish wear. Some of them spoke
wistfully of the old days, and the point they all brought up was that while
the old rules may not have been all that comfortable, they were simple and
clear.

~~~
joycey
That's definitely true, and I would argue that "casual work attire" is even
more ambiguous for women. One of the things I realized during my first
internship is that "casual" and "casual work appropriate" aren't the same
thing, even though every recruiter and manager I've spoken to has said to just
wear what I'd wear casually on the weekends. There are some types of casual
clothing that I wear--such as shorts, low-cut tops, crop tops, strapless
anything, shorter dresses or skirts, etc--that are not work appropriate, even
if this is not explicitly said or encoded in a company dress code. That being
said, I would never sacrifice the luxury of wearing casual clothing to work in
exchange for being able to make more straight-forward sartorial decisions.

~~~
speedplane
It's not just biz-casual, all business attire is harder for women. My cousin
is a lawyer in Texas, and in court the judge (yes, a judge), made a comment
about her not being in a skirt. This judge was from a different era, but the
incident happened within the last few years. Pretty unbelievable.

I previously worked a biz-cas place, and while everyone griped about the
ambiguity, eventually you get the sense of the dos and donts and fall into
line. Just takes more time.

~~~
jethro_tell
I've noticed this as well. I'm walking around in chuck taylors jeans and a
tee-shirt with a hoody in cool weather and I do it year round.

The female engineers I work with would not be what I consider casual. They
wear dry clean only clothes, heals or boots. Usually clothes that are nicely
fitted (As apposed to my square shirt that has arm holes sewed on. All this,
+makup. (I shower, and wear deodorant, and get my hair cut weekly, but that's
about it there). I could buy an entire 14 day work wardrobe for > $300.

I've wondered (perhaps worried) that is a reaction to not (or feeling) that
they are not taken seriously. I can see when I walk around the halls at work
that the women in my work place are putting in more effort than the guys but I
don't have a cause for that.

I know that my wife likes to wear nice clothes to work. But I also know that
on weekends she wears jeans and a hoody, or hoody and yoga pants. I also know
that she enjoys looking at and buying clothes. I find it to be a chore, and
try to do it all in about 2 hours for the whole year. I wear the same thing
weather I'm doing the yard or writing code.

I don't really know why, but I can see that it's happening.

~~~
joycey
Especially as a younger female engineer, I consciously try to avoid looking
younger since people consistently underestimate my technical abilities. I'm
also average height for a woman but typically the shortest one on my team, so
if I show up to work wearing a T-shirt, jeans, and converse I can look even
more juvenile.

Here's an example of how changes to your casual wardrobe can make a huge
difference in how old you look: [http://www.extrapetite.com/2010/05/reader-
request-how-to-loo...](http://www.extrapetite.com/2010/05/reader-request-how-
to-look-older-in.html)

~~~
speedplane
Yeesh... that post perfectly exemplifies how much stress women have to go
through to just look "normal". I wish I could say that all you had to be was
great at your assigned job, but unfortunately that's not enough (in both tech
and non-tech positions).

I'll add though, that guys do deal with these rules too (see article below)
but they are pretty clearly laid out. Guys' fashion changes over decades,
whereas womans' changes over seasons.

[https://finance.yahoo.com/news/goldman-sachs-elevator-
guide-...](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/goldman-sachs-elevator-guide-
dressing-180000058.html)

------
jbb67
I think people don't understand that today's business suit and shirt WERE
considered smart casual back when people started wearing them. This was
retained in business for some time after fashion changed in general use.

It's not just that dress codes have changed, more that what constitutes smart
casual changed.

------
tbabb
I feel like the author of this article hasn't worked in silicon valley,
because it doesn't touch at all on what I feel is the cultural significance of
casual attire: Wearing what you want says that your employer values you for
your brain, not your willingness to conform. Formal dress runs counter to
cultures that value lateral thinking, iconoclasm, and non-conformism; all the
things that have made silicon valley successful.

A suit says "I am an interchangeable cog." Normal clothing says that you're an
individual with identity and tastes.

(Plus it is hopelessly uncool to be/work for squares).

~~~
exabrial
This made me smile because I was thinking the exact opposite thing :) I think
a lot of hipsters dress alike (skinny jeans, boat shoes, et all) and they're
worried about not conforming! (not accusing you of being a hipster, just
playing on silicon valley stereotypes, no idea where you work)

~~~
jawilson2
“Everyone in this room is wearing a uniform, and don’t kid yourself.”

\--Frank Zappa

------
Norfair
I enjoy wearing suits to work. Sadly, at some tech companies it is a bad idea
nowadays. I wore a suit to work at Google and Facebook and regularly got
called security on. I made sure to always keep my badge close.

~~~
ck425
Until recently I had a worked with a friend who wears nothing but suits, not
just at work but in day to day life. People found it odd for a few months but
then he quickly got a rep as that really well dressed guy and most folk
enjoyed it. Admittedly it helped that most of his suits were a bit more out
there than typical business suits. Think slightly hipster barbershop quartet.
The man had some damn nice jackets.

~~~
Neliquat
As long as they are decent quality. I have an aquaintance who dresses up for
events in cheap terrible suits and he looks like a caracature of a used car
salesman. He is genuinely embarrasing to be around, but thinks the attention
is positive, because people recodnise him now. Nice guy, but I can't help but
think more people need to know, so they don't do the same.

~~~
magic_beans
That is hilarious and sad.

------
mattbgates
I remember, everyday I'd get dressed for work. Business casual collar shirt or
button down shirt. Dockers pants. Colors were pretty dull. Light blue. Red.
Gray. Black. White. Black shoes. I'd have an assortment to choose from and
that is all I'd ever wear.

Since having been moved into a cubicle, however, where I am visible less than
half the time, only seen when I go get a free drink from the fridge, use the
bathroom, or take a walk outside, I have been dressing much more casually.

Decent shirt, but probably less than business casual, sometimes as casual as a
Pink Floyd or a shirt that I got at a concert. Jeans. Sneakers. Summer=shorts.
A lot of times, I'll just find a nice casual shirt and wear it for 3 or 4 days
if its fairly clean. Clothing is just the last thing on my mind when it comes
to getting dressed in the morning. I know I have to do it in order to go out
into the world, but I don't really care what it is.

Of course, my supervisor does warn us if corporate is coming to visit for the
day, for which everyone tends to be even more dressed up than usual. But that
is just the way our office is. I've worked around the United States.. it seems
like the East Coast and Midwest are slightly more strict in wanting people to
dress business casual, and be clean-shaven, while the West Coast and Mountain
areas are more lenient, and doesn't even seem to mind a mustache or beard,
though either should be somewhat groomed.

East Coast/Midwest: tattoos should be covered. West Coast/Mountains: tattoos
are okay as long as they are not offensive.

Just today, I walked into Walmart, and a guy who looked like the manager is
loaded up to his neck in tattoos. I don't remember ever seeing that when I
lived on the East coast.

~~~
zensavona
That part about tattoos strikes me as very odd. I live in Australia and have
both of my arms fairly covered in tattoos, no job I've ever had has asked me
to cover them, even as a travel agent.

~~~
creepydata
How old are you?

I'm almost 40. It used to be visible tattoos and piercings meant you were
unemployable in most "mainstream" jobs. Same with odd colored hair or other
unconventional appearance. I remember the "rule of thumb" was it was ok to get
tattoos on your sleeves because you could always cover them up for work.

Tattoos are mainstream now so not so they are much more accepted at the
workplace now. I remember I was really surprised the first time I saw someone
with a facial piercing working a customer service job, it was at CVS.

~~~
mrcsparker
Growing up in Texas it seemed like most C-level people had at least one
tattoo. A lot of them were vets so they would typically be eagles or flags.

I have a theory that the mainstreaming of tattoos comes from the greatest
generation. They were the generation who fought the Nazis and came back with
markings showing their loyalty to their country and the people they served
with.

I am the same age as you. I don't remember any boomer parents with tattoos. I
wonder if our kids and grandkids will keep getting tattoos or if it will fall
out of fashion

~~~
magic_beans
Now the stigma is pretty much gone and tattoos are basically ubiquitous. I'd
imagine future generations won't find getting a tattoo to be as exciting. I
suspect the fickle Instagram generation will be much more into temporary
tattoos.

~~~
creepydata
Kids are going to not get tattoos to rebel against their parents.

(That being said, I didn't grow up in Texas, I grew up in the Northeast)

------
myrandomcomment
I work for a startup in Silicon Valley (hiring devs btw). I work from home
most days because the drive from Los Gatos to Menlo Park is a nightmare. Tee
and jeans are the normal dress code or track suites if you are one of our
Easten European coders. ;) I go to Asia a lot on business. I am sit in Tokyo
right now, in a suite and tie. I have a closet full. Only place I have to wear
them - NYC, London and Tokyo. Oh well. Bespoke of course ;)

The subway sucks in a suite in the summer in Tokyo. Also they have a mandate
to reduce energy hardcore after the earthquake so the AC is set at 28C the
offices.

~~~
taway_1212
28c in the offices in a rich industrialized country? I wonder how much
productivity they loose because of that.

~~~
herbst
this is 100% anecdotal. But I got the impression that you get used to it
rather fast if the climate is consistently hot for a while.

Source: I got used to Bangkok's climate in a month and happily worked with a
fan only, without AC

~~~
wingerlang
How?

My countersource is that I didn't get used to it at all (several years) and
seemingly neither of my co workers have either. The days when AC is off in the
office, well it's pretty much empty.

~~~
Dunan
I've been enduring 28-degree Tokyo for a decade. You _never_ get used to it.

~~~
myrandomcomment
I agree. I am here for a week a month for about the last 10 years. I think it
would be possiable to get used to it if you did not have to wear a suite and
tie!

------
_raoulcousins
I work for a company with a strict and specific dress code - ties and slacks
for men, leather shoes, etc. I think there is a huge opportunity cost to this
dress code, and we lose a lot of potential good talent.

I was asked when interviewing (in a very serious tone) whether I could handle
the dress code. It seemed obvious that they were aware it was a sticking point
in recruiting.

~~~
xraystyle
> It seemed obvious that they were aware it was a sticking point in
> recruiting.

Understandably. I don't even own enough clothing that would qualify to make it
through a week.

This would most certainly be a deal-breaker for me unless the compensation was
otherwise SPECTACULAR.

~~~
johan_larson
Meh. I would consider formal attire a minus, but not a deal-breaker. It's a
nuisance to take care of, but at least it looks good.

~~~
javier2
Yeah, but coding in a tie every day when there are options is a tough sell for
me..

~~~
johan_larson
If a tie is really uncomfortable, you may be wearing shirts with necks that
are too narrow. Ask a salesperson to measure you for correct fit.

If it's the flopping around you object to, get a tie clip or consider a bow
tie.

~~~
xraystyle
It's not that a shirt and tie is uncomfortable, it's that a t-shirt IS
comfortable. If I can pick between two jobs where I sit at a desk all day in
front of a keyboard, and only one requires a button-down shirt and a tie, the
tie job can suck it.

Why would I volunteer for that? Additionally, I think in terms of tech jobs,
especially in California, you'd actually have to go looking for a place that
makes you wear a tie.

I don't think I've interviewed anywhere in my adult life that had a dress code
other than 'you have to wear some kind of pants in the office'.

~~~
johan_larson
I once worked for a big company that had no formal dress code at all. I asked
my manager about that, and he said the issue was dealt with case by case when
someone complained about someone else's attire.

The only time I can remember it being an issue was when one guy wanted to go
barefoot at work. The eventual decision was that going barefoot was out, but
flip-flops were acceptable.

------
matt_s
One perspective in the article was about productivity and some belief that
professional business attire had fewer distractions, so in theory helped
productivity.

After working 20 years in a large corporate environment where you could and I
did accidentally literally brush shoulders in the hallway with a Fortune 500
executive this is utter nonsense. There are so many opportunities in a large
company to improve productivity that people's attire would be near the bottom
of that list.

I like working more in a startup culture where there is less ceremonial BS and
more focus on delivering value.

I think a big factor with Americans dressing so casually is that how you dress
is no longer a representation of your status in society.

~~~
VLM
"I think a big factor with Americans dressing so casually is that how you
dress is no longer a representation of your status in society."

As a thought experiment this might be happening with car ownership right now
WRT the glowing gaslighting reports about the success of gig economy car
services, and in theory there's no reason it won't happen with real estate.
"Casual real estate prices" is an interesting meme to contemplate.

In the really old days, people used to say an ounce of gold is what a
professionals suit should cost. It still does cost that much today, centuries
later, its just professionals don't wear business suits as much anymore LOL.
Or perhaps the era of LARPing is ending and non-professionals are no longer
wearing professional suits...

------
kirpekar
Over the last 12 years I have interviewed dozens of candidates for jobs. Not a
single wore a suit.

The suit is really dead in the workplace (in Silicon Valley)

~~~
manyxcxi
I've interviewed and been interviewed countless times in the last decade and
maybe once I've worn a full blown suit. I don't have a problem with them, but
I don't want to look like an asshole when everyone else is running around in
hoodies and jeans.

I usually just step it up a notch from whatever the regular office attire is
there (either by asking my point of contact or having known the office). If
it's full SV/hobo style I'll do a polo and nice jeans. Business casual and
I'll wear a nicer shirt and some khakis. If I really have no clue I'll go
slacks and a dress shirt.

In my own office (we're all remote) I still wear jeans and a polo most days.
Usually just out of sheer laziness.

~~~
ghaff
Haven't worn a suit for an interview in decades. Last interviews, I wore a
jacket and tie. I knew I'd be overdressing and certainly didn't need to. But
it generally doesn't hurt to signal that you're taking the process seriously.

I've interviewed plenty of folks in the years since and they do pretty much
the same. I'm not going to dock people because they approach an interview
formally.

------
golergka
Everybody's talking about social norms and signalling, but there's still one
objective thing about clothing - climate and health. How could a person in a
suit survive in 30+ degrees Celsius? I just can't imagining wearing anything
else than shorts and T-shirts in the summer that wouldn't give me a heat
stroke or some other heat and sweat-related nastiness.

~~~
daemin
You can get specially made summer suits made out of light and breathable
material like linen. Obviously you wouldn't wear a whole 3 piece suit in the
middle of a 40 degree summer day.

But the reality is that if you need to wear a suit to work, you're not working
outdoors in the heat, you're working indoors in air conditioned comfort.

~~~
VLM
If you're familiar with the black and white movie "To kill a mockingbird" the
dad/lawyer wore a seersucker suit. Its hard to explain verbally, its like
silk-thin corduroy. And how to explain corduroy fabric to someone not a child
of the 70s.. um...

Lets just stick with seersucker is like 3-d silk but its actually very fine
cotton. Its about as thin of a fabric as you can make that's not translucent.

Also traditional "real" seersucker suits were unlined although "fake" modern
seersucker suits are lined.

Fitting a seersucker suit is non-trivial if done right because too tight and
you'll roast and too baggy looks bad but there's this magic size where you get
maximal cooling while still looking awesome. Being a cotton its so "fun" to
deal with the shrinkage.

Its also not fun for the tailor/mfgr because they put a lot of work into
faking thickness in the lapels. Here you are wearing something lighter than a
polo shirt in total, but the lapels will be cut to appear 1/8 inch thick.
Again, this was "real" seersucker and modern "fake" seersucker might be pretty
warm without air conditioning.

It feels like wearing summer weight pajamas, its actually very comfortable
while being stylish.

Also digital video/photo algorithms famously don't work well with the higher
contrast seersucker colors.

------
dclowd9901
No joke, I didn't want to become a software engineer when I was young because
I saw pictures in books (published in the 60s -- I was reading them in the
80s) of programmers, and they looked like stodgy boring dorks. If I had seen
that SV survival guide, the entire course of my life would have been
different.

~~~
rak00n
Funny you mentioned that. One of my reasons for becoming programmer was my 14
year old self watched The Matrix and thought​ Neo was pretty awesome.

------
Shinchy
It's funny because for a long time I would wear casual dress down clothing to
my jobs and be cool with that. However now that my company has a no jeans
policy I will wear a full suit, tie, shoes getup and I really enjoy it. I've
amassed a good sized collection of high end suits and just really enjoy
wearing them. Obviously though I really love fashion.

------
tjr225
I was surprised by how well dressed the Japanese are every single day in
Tokyo. It has inspired me to put more effort into what I wear.

------
AceyMan
I have strong opinions on this topic from a differing set of influences.

In unranked order:

0\. From a part of the US where how you dress a metric for how earnestly your
intentions are; be it prayer, asking for a date, or (as mentioned above)
interviewing for a job.

1\. Military influences: Dad in Navy; lived and visited a big base quite
often, knew many veterans (see 2, below). Uniforms in that context subsumed
the above (0, above), and added how, for the military services (poster-
children for "highly ordered & massively scaled"!) , uniforms matched their
operations to a tee.

2\. I worked for an airline for a decade-plus and got deep into air transport
operations. From the day I was hired, until I resigned, I experienced or
witnessed all the different ways uniforms rocked, with one or two counter-
cases where the letter of the law was, let's say, liberally interpreted
<frown>. Yet, overall, in real-world use, uniforms were clearly advantageous
and I got the hang of it in no time.

3\. I hope I'm not alone in this, but for me, donning a nice, fresh, crisp
uniform - whatever style it might be - makes me feel more assured, more
vigorous, more ... "I got this" 'tude than if I just wear whatever. (See
'Interview' block below.)

As for day-to-day, on-the-job; it's just fun to mix it up (time & laundry
permitting).

Today was a blazer with a bow tie (MaxAccountantMode, heh), but to wear any
tie is rare; maybe a blazer or sportcoat twice a week, at most, with the daily
usual being a collared knit shirt (as made famous by Izod (!)) and intact
darker dyed jeans, or industrial hiking khakis( which are my new favorites).

Finally: interviews. I wear a dark suit, shined shoes, pressed shirt (often
new), proper socks, proper tie that's properly knotted. OMG ... I probably
look like a salesman <see above>. But my batting average is pretty good, so
I'm not sure I should change the recipe.

Cheers, /Acey

+1 thread

~~~
Dunan
_" 3\. I hope I'm not alone in this, but for me, donning a nice, fresh, crisp
uniform - whatever style it might be - makes me feel more assured, more
vigorous, more ... "I got this" 'tude than if I just wear whatever. (See
'Interview' block below.)"_

I have often thought that one of the hidden motives behind the recent trend of
making casual dress near-mandatory is to prevent rank-and-file employees from
feeling this sense of self-confidence and the unconscious additional respect
they would get from people around them when they dress with some formality.

I know I felt it the first time I had a professional job interview when in
college; the people around me looked at me and spoke to me in a slightly more
respectful way than they would have if I had been wearing typical college-boy
casual.

------
driverdan
I'd ask the opposite question, why do people still dress formally in the
workplace? Or more specifically, why do men still wear ties?

Ties are the most pointless piece of clothing and have no practical purpose.
If you want some color get a nice colored shirt.

~~~
hultner
I wouldn't agree. First to tackle the colour part, having a tie in a nice
color offers a great accent to the larger canvas which allows you to use
bolder colours then when applying it to the entire shirt.

And for the practicality I find myself half freezing to death this time a year
when I walk to work without a tie (around 45°F/8°C with brisk winds). Having a
tie efficiently blocks the wind from entering the chest area through the
button seams and around the neck without requiring me to bring a bulky scarf
(which is very unpleasant in the afternoon when temperatures have risen to
about 70°F/21°C.

~~~
Arizhel
>And for the practicality I find myself half freezing to death this time a
year when I walk to work without a tie (around 45°F/8°C with brisk winds).

That's why they invented this thing called a "jacket".

~~~
hultner
I usually already wear a jacket, I'm talking about wind entering the chest
area.

~~~
Arizhel
All the jackets I've ever had have a zipper in front. You zip them up, and
wind doesn't get in. It's far more protection than a silly little piece of
silk cloth tied around your neck.

------
Tharkun
There are two types of company I refuse to work for:

1\. Companies under French management

2\. Companies with a dress code.

~~~
thearn4
> Companies under French management

I'm curious about this one, how come?

~~~
Tharkun
I've had the misfortune of working under French management twice. Once because
I was young and dumb, and once because my employer's company was sold to a
French competitor. In both cases things were horrible, and I've heard similar
(or worse) stories from other devs under French management.

It mostly boils down to maddening bureaucracy.

Pointless meetings (when everything is decided in the hallways before the
meeting starts, why have a meeting?).

An utterly bizarre obsession with certification over competence. You have a
degree from this uni? You're hired! Even if you're as useless as they come.
You're very skilled but don't have a degree from their favourite uni? Need not
apply.

Simulating work is more important than working. You must be present from 9 to
5 at all cost.

Want something trivial done? Be prepared to submit it in writing (hard copy!)
to management. You can expect a reply in about a month.

~~~
javier2
I've worked with two french (really great guys!) that shared the same
sentiment. 9-5 at all cost, looking busy was adamant compared to completing
actual work. 2 hour lunches...

They would probably never work in their home country again. There are probably
exceptions, but they both worked for big banks in Paris (not the same).

------
syphilis2
Others considered the external appearance the manifestation of internal
character. That philosophy is bound to overlook technical greatness, but it
contributed to centuries of beautiful artwork in the daily objects of common
people. Not devoting care to appearances is, perhaps unintentionally, a
rejection of art and artistry. We have the opportunity to contribute to our
descendents, the same way our ancestors left so many interesting things
behind.

------
gadders
I remember 20-odd years ago I was working for UBS the investment bank in the
city of London just as "Casual Friday" was becoming a thing.

One Friday I looked out of my office window near Liverpool Street Station and
saw about a dozen smartly dressed gents in pinstripe suits with rolled
umbrellas and bowler hats holding placards protesting against Casual Friday. I
suspect it may well have been a stunt, but it was funny to watch.

------
ianamartin
I wish we could. My company has a very strict dress code. Suits and ties are
recommended, but slacks and a dress shirt and sport coat are the bare minimum.
Suits are required on many occasions. And man, let me tell you, I do not look
good after schlepping 3/4th of a mile to the train and another 1/5 of a mile
to the office in high summer in NYC in a suit. I look like a sweaty,
disgusting mess. I basically just work from home during the summer except for
when I really have to go into the office.

------
thearn4
Where I'm at (NASA), there is a broad spectrum of dress formality. Generally I
do the typical polo shirt and khaki or jeans. When giving a local presentation
or low-level sight visit, business casual. When going to a conference or
getting a visit from HQ/congress/president's staff, business suit.

I notice more academics having the same approach as well. I dress to match
expectations, but generally I'm past the point where visually impressing
someone would impact my upward mobility.

------
R_haterade
So when do I get to start wearing my overalls to my coding job?

~~~
swalling
[http://www.gq.com/story/the-male-romper-is-here](http://www.gq.com/story/the-
male-romper-is-here) You're welcome

~~~
R_haterade
Oh god that's just disgraceful.

------
Osiris
The office I work at right now is an old oil and gas company and up until a
year ago women had to wear pantyhose. When they started the new internal
development department they found out that they had to slightly relax the
standards to hire people. We can now wear nice jeans, a shirt with buttons,
and dress shoes. Yes, the manager still encourages everyone to wear tires,
though it's no longer required.

~~~
Arizhel
>Yes, the manager still encourages everyone to wear _tires_ , though it's no
longer required.

Wouldn't that be rather uncomfortable, especially when you try to sit in a
chair with a back?

------
strin
This has something to do with organizations being flat.

In a monolithic top-down hierarchical organization, employees are expected to
conform. So attire rules reflects the culture where management and top-down
decision making is common.

In a flat organization, decentralized decision making happens more often. So
the culture might shift towards encouraging individual differences and more
freedom in work style, including casual attire.

------
ThomaszKrueger
At one company I interviewed the director of development was wearing bermuda
shorts, flip flops and a worn out T shirt. As I looked around, most all
employees were in shorts. All work in a common area.

When I started working I had my own private office and wore a shirt and tie at
least. Fridays were "casual" \- no tie. I liked it better like that.

------
wonderwonder
I work in a 4 man software team in a small company where the dress code is as
long as it doesn't get you arrested it's cool. I just wear jeans, t shirt and
flipflops. A lot of people wear shorts and shirts with curse words. Anything
goes.

It is a music company though so that probably has a lot to do with it.

------
nitwit005
> The office was, until a few decades ago, the last stronghold of fashion
> formality. Silicon Valley changed that.

The trend was obviously coming to an end if we're already using terms like
"last stronghold", regardless of what Silicon Valley might have done.

------
johan_larson
Coders have been dressing funny for a long time. Check out this smart chap
from the Multics OS project.

[http://multicians.org/mulimg/ctc-sm.jpg](http://multicians.org/mulimg/ctc-
sm.jpg)

------
exabrial
This is an opinion that may trigger some people on HN. Don't take it
personally, it's not an attack.

I like dressing up for work, because it shows you care about what you're
doing. Nowadays, it seems every silicon valley company tests in production
(Facebook, Google Docs, Even some parts of Android) because they just don't
care about quality or user experience.

I miss the days of getting a release ready and patched, having very high
confidence we worked the bugs out of everything before shipping it to the
customer, with a list of features we added or things we fixed. It built up a
lot of excitement too, customers would anticipate and ask for updates, eager
to deploy them or test them out.

Maybe it's the background I worked in (it's been medical software or insurance
claims processing)... so it actually matters if things work correctly the
first time.

~~~
suyash
How are those two arguments related? Seems like you are making two separate
points.

------
eip
I welcome a return to the days when men dressed more fashionably:
[http://i.imgur.com/kAKRWQCg.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/kAKRWQCg.jpg)

------
thatwebdude
This thread reminds me that I need to donate those three small pairs of slacks
at the back of my closet gathering dust.

And maybe find some shirts that aren't the "T" variety.

------
LordKano
I was under the impression that some workplaces relaxed dress codes to
increase morale without paying more money.

------
ilaksh
Is it about self-expression now? I think if people take that to heart its
great.

Are actual colors coming back? Black seems to be as popular as ever. Most
people don't want to stand out, at work or anywhere else, but fashion is
generally so drab, I have always thought there would be a flower-like backlash
of color that became popular eventually. Then you would only stand out if you
were too dull.

~~~
chris_7
My experience is that dressing in black _does_ stand out. Most everyday people
wear colors, even in New York, so it's much more striking to wear all
black/monochrome - especially if you get interesting streetwear-y pieces. Or
go full Rick Owens.

~~~
ilaksh
I didn't say _all_ black. Black in general is still a dominant color in NY.

------
KboPAacDA3
Even the Dilbert comic strip has embraced casual dress with what Scott Adams
calls business dorky.

------
jernfrost
Everything is relative I guess. Compared to Norwegian workplace Americans are
usually very dressed up even in the tech industry. In our case it had nothing
to do with tech industry norms or trying to be efficient. Actually I am highly
sceptical to the premise of the article. I think it is wrong. The Bay Area was
full of hippies. I'd rather say it was the political movement against
conservatism which killed the company dresscode. That would be a more fitting
description of what happened in Norway. It was political radicalism among the
young in the early 70s. Silicon valley was full of young people heavily
indpired by this movement. Just read Steve Jobs biography ;-)

------
justforFranz
Because they're fat.

------
torrent-of-ions
I dress up for work. I am one of the better dressed people at my work. I wear
a coloured shirt, smart jeans, brown dress shoes (brogues) and a sports
jacket. Yes, for my workplace, this is "up". I wish I could wear a suit and
white shirt to work, but a general rule of thumb is only to dress one notch
higher than the median.

I used to wear the same as everyone else (shorts and t-shirt), but I really
enjoy the separation between work and home that nice clothes bring. When I get
home I remove my shirt and hang it up. I put my shoe trees in my shoes. On the
weekend I dress casually. It feels good. If you always dress casually then you
never dress casually.

On Sundays I polish my shoes to a mirror shine. When my shirts are dirty I
wash and iron them carefully. It's a discipline that gives meaning to my life.

~~~
camelNotation
I agree, it's a similar effect for me. I like that my dress pants and dress
shirts serve to separate work from home.

I view my morning routine, with the special clothes, special shoes, special
bag, and even my "special" commuter car (that I don't drive on weekends) as a
sort of liturgical practice. I wake up, I shower, I groom, I put the clothes
on a certain way, I gather my things in the same order, I get one of only a
handful of breakfast options, make coffee, and leave for work. I even kiss my
wife and kids in the same order (youngest to oldest, oldest of course being my
wife).

This seems boring and repetitive to a lot of people, but it's actually
incredibly freeing for me. Because it is all so routine, I usually spend my
mornings thinking about the book I was reading the night before, or the news,
or some other topic. I don't have to pay attention to what I am doing because
it just happens without "me" really being part of it. It allows me to focus on
ideas that matter to me instead of menial activities.

For me, this liturgy would be interrupted without those special clothes and
special shoes. I would likely find myself making choices and decisions I
really don't have a desire to make.

~~~
ccozan
It feels very ... rigid.

In contrast to this, my mornings are a total chaos: kids. They obey rules if
they arr funny. So I have to be funny, which means I just can't be that rigid.

So we just have fun every morning, which makes my work time also pleasant and
light. An of course, very casual.

EDIT: I did not said that the person is autistic. Just the way it feels. There
is a fine distinction. Of course there is nothing wrong with a structured life
and such a person is perfectly healthy. Just to be fair, changed the word.

~~~
Godel_unicode
That's a pretty offensive description. People can like structure without
having a severe developmental disorder.

~~~
ccozan
Sorry, didn't wanted to sound like that. Just changed the work accordingly.
There was no intention of offending anyone, so bear with me.

------
SmellyGeekBoy
What the hell!? This sounds like a genuine case of child abuse...

~~~
erikbye
Catholics and abuse and you are surprised?

------
ar15saveslives
> Of course that made them, for that time, unusable! So he had to toss them.

Honest question: your mother didn't bother to work anywhere, why couldn't she
help him?

And I like this "he had to toss them", as they lived apart, and it wasn't a
family's loss.

~~~
CompanyLaser
She was an artist. Making money isn't a requirement for something to be work.

~~~
loco5niner
Huh, I think I'll become an artist. It sounds nice.

