
An Awkward Conversation - gringofyx
http://www.codingjohnson.com/an-awkward-conversation
======
sdrinf
UK's IT recruitment industry have to die.

After 2 years of uphill battle, here's how I managed to get off from _all_
recruiters' spamlist & call list:

\- For every email coming from an agency: search via the recruiter's domain
name for all older emails; scan their websites for contact details; BCC
everyone on it (this will make it a subject of coffee conversation)

Subject line: Cease and desist further communication

Body: Dear $RECRUITMENT_COMPANY, and to all whom it might concern,

Pursuant to my rights under the Data Protection Act 1998, I am requesting that
you cease and desist communication with me in relation to job offers, or
vacancies of any kind.

You are hereby notified that if you do not comply with this request, I will
immediately file a complaint with the Information Commissioner's Office. Civil
and criminal claims will be pursued.

Sincerely, $FULLNAME

* Send, and mark the original email spam. This will help spamfilters to classify emails of this kind correctly.

* For phone conversations, where the phone number is visible: register for [http://www.tpsonline.org.uk/tps/index.html](http://www.tpsonline.org.uk/tps/index.html) (this is a good idea regardless) ,and file a complaint.

* For phone conversations, where no phone number is available, your mission is to elicit a company name, and while keeping them on the phone, look it up using [http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/](http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/) . If the company exist, use the above form via email, and inform them the same content verbally.

* If, despite all the above, a company is repeat offender, contact me (email in profile), and we'll take them to small claims.

~~~
djhworld
The recruitment industry in this country is vile but very lucrative, the
people in it would probably not feel out of place as estate agents if they
decided to switch careers.

I've heard tales of hapless graduates falling into recruitment and ending up
earning £10k a month through commission.

Not bad for a job that's essentially just spamming emails, ringing people and
lying to them a lot. But utterly soul destroying at the same time

~~~
georgiecasey
yep, and it would die if companies just stopped paying the ludicrous placement
fees, which run about €10k I think. I know it's a lot of hassle for companies
to find good staff but surely the HR people can do it instead of forking out
that kind of dough.

------
aaronbrethorst
Here's an email I received this morning:

    
    
        From: [redacted]
        Subject: Windows Software Developer Engineer
        Date: August 5, 2013 9:47:37 AM PDT
        To: Aaron Brethorst
    
        Dear Aaron,
    
        Good Morning, I have an open Windows Software Developer Engineer position available.
        I would like to know if you or someone you know would like a new adventure. I found
        your profile by simply using Windows Engineer, C++, SCM and Visual Studio. You are
        only 1 of about 200 in the USA. I have attached the position description along with
        a description of the company and location. I look forward to hearing from you.
    
        Thank you
        [redacted]
    

So, setting aside the fact that—if you were to spend _literally five seconds
Googling me_ —I have never been a C++ Windows developer, and clearly have no
interest in embarking on that now, I am kind of astonished that this recruiter
is proudly proclaiming that she found me by some sort of really naive keyword
matching on LinkedIn.

She also didn't actually include a description of the company or location.
Sigh.

~~~
anonymousab
They include as little information as possible because they don't want you
going around them to get the position.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
Quoting from her email:

 _I have attached the position description along with a description of the
company and location._

------
reidrac
The industry needs an "IT recruitment horror stories" website.

I got contacted once by a recruiter offering me a job in my company, the same
position I was employed in, and the recruiter told me I was "a good match" for
that role. Yes, looks like I could get that job if I wasn't already hired in
that exact same position.

~~~
smtddr
In some environments that would be a huge warning!

~~~
reidrac
My employer is always hiring Python developers because in this area looks like
is hard to find the right candidate:

[http://www.memset.com/careers/#PythonSoftwareDeveloper](http://www.memset.com/careers/#PythonSoftwareDeveloper)

But you're right, that was my first thought :)

~~~
bobbbert
they could help their search for the right candidate by dropping the
unnecessary requirement of a technical degree. you don't need to have studied
a STEM degree to know python, SQL, jQuery etc

~~~
reidrac
I totally agree. In fact I'm surprised, I would have expected "or equivalent
experience" or anything in that line.

------
jff
LinkedIn emails me weekly with a list of jobs I'd theoretically be interested
in--almost all internships, because I have in the past done internships.
Apparently they haven't figured out that I don't want to go from Senior Member
of Technical Staff back to Intern, it's kind of a step down.

~~~
menssen
Since becoming "Director of Technology" of a startup, these emails have
enlightened me to all the kind of technologies that have directors.

My favorite was the suggestion that I apply for "Director of Pork Technology"
at Cargill.

Probably kind of like web development, right?

------
Buttons840
I get lots of calls from similar recruiters, but had I been in this guys
position the call would have gone like this:

RECRUITER: Oh hi Matthew, my name's ### and I'm calling from ### with regard
to an exciting opportunity that's come up in London for a Senior Developer,
are you interested?

ME: Where is this job located?

RECRUITER: [Says something that translates to] 4 hours away.

ME: Thanks for contacting me, but I'm happy with my current job and I don't
want to relocate right now.

RECRUITER: [In the face to two good excuses the recruiter says] Ok, you have a
good day.

ME: You too.

More pleasant for all involved.

~~~
d23
> RECRUITER: [In the face to two good excuses the recruiter says] Ok, you have
> a good day.

Have you _ever_ talked to a recruiter? In my experience they never give up
that easily. We had one tell us they had "plenty of developers to offer," more
than they knew what to do with. After we said we weren't interested, he then
immediately turn around and ask if we knew any developers looking for a job,
because they had plenty of job openings they couldn't fill. Right...

------
doktrin
> _WTF!? This is like asking "Do you use a gear-stick?" followed by "Have you
> ever been in a car?"_

I was once asked if I had ".NET _and_ API experience" (verbatim) :/

More to the point, though, I don't really understand all the complaints about
recruiters. Emails can easily be ignored, and it's not impossible to decline a
call (politely, or even rudely if necessary). Having an awkward conversation
is, to a certain extent, a self imposed burden.

For my part, I tend to enjoy hearing about what else may be available out
there, even though I currently have no intention of switching employers.

~~~
Fuzzwah
If nothing else it is frustrating to know that there are people out there
being paid to do this and that their salaries are clearly taking a chunk out
of potential HR payrolls.

~~~
doktrin
I may well be wrong, but aren't most recruiters via by commission?

~~~
Fuzzwah
No matter what structure the payment is made under, its still coming out of
the actual employers bank account. Money which could be used to actually pay
employees rather than keyword matching recruiters.

------
lsc
First, the idea of expecting technical skill out of someone willing to do cold
calling is... laughable. Are you willing to cold call folks? I'm not. It's
unpleasant. If you have technical skill, you can get a job doing something
rather less scummy, and deal with people who don't hate dealing with you.

------
bifrost
I get at least one of these a week and that is after I took my phone number
off my resume. I found out that in order for your number to get purged, you
need to post an "alternate" one.

I also have the suspicion that recruiting agencies have temps call/email
people to "verify" details since there are potentially so many fake resumes
out there that are bought/sold. IMHO these are like spam lists or something...

------
cliveowen
Yeah, complain about clueless recruiters calling you with an offer. There's
people who would do anything for a job.

~~~
UVB-76
Precisely. There's something particularly grating about the self-righteous
attitude of this author.

He may not care for such a call, but if there is an actual vacancy involved,
there are millions of unemployed/underemployed people in the UK who would kill
to get unsolicited calls from recruiters offering them £35-40k roles.

~~~
semanticist
And you should always finish your dinner because there's starving children in
Africa.

The terrible state of IT recruitment is a legitimate issue and trying to
derail discussion of it in this way is obnoxious.

Also, there's not millions of viable candidates for software development roles
who are unemployed. If there were, salaries would be dropping and there'd be
no cold calls from recruiters. The people you're talking about - while
potentially highly skilled in other areas - would hate to get that call just
as much as the author, as it would be a job they couldn't do and a waste of
their time. (Not to mention demoralising.)

------
blainesch
Anybody else notice the "I can't know MVC without knowing ASP.Net" in there?

~~~
fhd2
I cringed too, but I guess they meant the framework of the same name from MS:
[http://www.asp.net/mvc](http://www.asp.net/mvc)

------
npsimons
_They 're paying £35,000 but will go to £40,000 for the right candidate_

I literally laughed out loud at this. I'm a Yank who doesn't even know what
the exchange rate is, and that is laughably, sadistically low, even for an
entry level position in Podunk, Nowhere. And they're offering this for a
"senior developer" in the urban metro area of London? The author is right, IT
recruitment is totally broken.

~~~
doktrin
> * that is laughably, sadistically low, even for an entry level position in
> Podunk, Nowhere*

The salaries are low by US standards, but not "laughably" so IMHO.

In USD, those salaries currently translate to $53k - $60k. I know developers
in the Bay Area who make the same (not taking equity into account), and I'm
sure those salaries are reasonable in "podunk nowhere, USA".

I guess it's also worth noting that the dollar is currently somewhat strong
relative to the pound (in 2009 it was closer to 1:2 GBP:USD, for instance).

~~~
d23
> In USD, those salaries currently translate to $53k - $60k. I know developers
> in the Bay Area who make the same

Really? I thought bay area salaries were more around 80k+ to take into account
cost of living.

~~~
doktrin
> _Really? I thought bay area salaries were more around 80k+ to take into
> account cost of living._

Generally yes, but ~$60k salaries are not totally unheard of - particularly in
poorly funded startups hiring on equity and/or for junior roles. They are
probably outliers.

~~~
Patrick_Devine
That may have been true 10-15 years ago. For someone with either experience or
a degree, most places pay 90k+. A senior engineer (as mentioned in the blog
post) would easily make twice that.

~~~
doktrin
Sure. As mentioned, I know people that make the salaries I quoted (who have
both experience and degrees), and that's not something I plan to argue
(because it's a fact). In my opinion they could make more if they really
wanted to, but that's orthogonal to this discussion.

------
ajainy
I have been to these many "awkward" conversations so many times. In USA,
developer == senior developer == tech lead == hands on architect. So they keep
on adding better "title" of role, but we know that, it's 100% hands on job
with reporting to 10 different managers and at least 4-5 status meetings in a
day.

Hence, I am OK with my current job. :)

------
usingpond
The important thing is to be arrogant and shame this person for literally
doing their job.

~~~
cheald
If your job is harassing people and wasting their time, it doesn't make it
okay because you're "just doing your job".

I'm just gonna go ahead and Godwin this particular subthread and say "I was
just following orders" didn't hold any water at Nuremberg, and doesn't hold
any now.

------
UVB-76
Yes, the recruitment industry sucks. The author of this article works in the
recruitment industry — which company, I do not know, but by association to the
industry, the author also sucks.

Let's face the facts. Huge sections of the working age population either
unemployed or significantly underemployed. Dozens, if not hundreds, of
applicants for every vacancy.

Which recruiters win in this market? Those who spend lots of money on highly
skilled staff who can woo potential candidates with their in-depth knowledge
of the industry they are recruiting for when performing basic qualifying cold
calls for relatively low-paid roles, or those who hire people for near-enough
minimum wage to churn through a list of candidates, read from a script, and
get the information you need to qualify them for vacancies?

"But good heavens!" I hear you scream, as failsafe as the latter business plan
sounds, the recruitment firm has left a bad taste in the mouth of the author!

Who cares? I bet they found the perfect candidate for that vacancy that same
day after a few more phone calls.

------
lumens
To address the OP's 'Perfect World' recruiting scenario:

"I'm not sure what the answer is - probably some kind of flat-fee recruiter
that makes extensive use of technology to automate and clean up the process
with some (good) people on standby for edge-cases."

This is exactly what Mighty Spring
([https://www.mightyspring.com](https://www.mightyspring.com)) is - a high
quality technical recruitment agency which is managed entirely by you, the
candidate, through a web app.

The app helps you build out your career preferences and then shows you jobs
matched to your background. If you're interested in hearing more about a
specific opportunity, you can request that a recruiter from Mighty Spring call
you to provide more details or put you directly in touch with the company. The
best part? Their recruiters are technical and don't call unless you ask them
to.

(Full disclosure; I'm the founder of Mighty Spring and an ex-recruiter to
boot. OP hit the nail on the head with this post, IMHO.)

------
brianmcconnell
I know someone who works in IT recruiting. He makes $200-300K per year. Nice
guy, but he doesn't know fuck all about technology. In fact, I've never once
observed him asking a question that betrayed any knowledge or curiosity about
the trade.

~~~
MisterBastahrd
This is because success in the recruiting industry has nothing to do with
industry knowledge and everything to do with sales and networking ability.
Software developers like to think that their jobs are humbling because every
time they make a mistake, a compiler will return an error. That's nothing
compared to recruiters, who will make about 1200 phone calls for every 1 that
leads to a hire. Then even if they get that hire, they are at the mercy of the
consultant / employee and the employers.

------
xntrk
The emails don't bother me. Calls to my cell are little annoying but I just
don't answer numbers I don't know. What really gets under my skin is when a
recruiter will call my companies switchboard and then call my office phone!

~~~
cheshire137
That is ridiculously rude. I've had that happen to me at my current job. Way
to leave a good impression, slimy recruiters.

------
Eclyps
I've been harassed by recruiters who would email me on my personal email
address, my work email address, my cell phone, and my boss's office phone.
Virtually all of it during work hours. I guess they got my cell phone number
from the signature of the email that I sent politely telling them to please
stop contacting me because I am not interested in any positions, regardless of
the pay. I eventually had to personally spend the time researching the company
and carpet bombing their management with a legal threat upon receiving further
communication from them. It shouldn't have to come to that...

------
commanda
If technical recruiters did actually have technical experience, they could
make much more money being programmers rather than working as recruiters.
Therefor, there are few to no technically experienced recruiters. This isn't a
problem that's going to fix itself, unless companies start valuing recruiters
by paying the good ones a lot more. Clearly, this isn't happening widely, if
at all. So instead of bitching about bad recruiters, startup founders could
put their money where their mouths are and hire technically experienced people
to recruit for them.

~~~
tdfx
Anecdotally, the IT recruiters I know make more money than the developers I
know. If you look at industry averages then you'll probably find recruiter
income to be misleadingly low. Like most sales jobs, there's an incredible
amount of entry-level turnover and stagnation at the left of the curve. Once
you limit yourself to looking at people with a few years of successful
experience under their belts, they actually make quite a bit of money.

------
alexchamberlain
I hung up on a recruiter the other day who called me mad for not being
interested in a job opportunity for an unknown bank for an unknown salary in a
vague area of London.

------
incision
Something I wonder about is the way I get hit up by recruiters driven from
LinkedIn in bunches. Most recently, I got a call from a big name and had
several profile views from other people at the company.

Immediately following this, I was contacted more in a week than I had been in
past 6 months.

It made me wonder if LinkedIn rotates through "featured" profiles, whether
recruiters have some indication of who other companies are looking at or what?

~~~
pigscantfly
I won't speculate on LinkedIn's practices, although it seems possible they
could drive retention by 'rotating' inactive users into a more featured spot
(or maybe you're correct and they have a feedback loop based around who's
'hot').

On the other hand, it could just be that when larger companies have openings,
they're typically hiring for more than one developer. Thus, they might
contract multiple recruiting agencies who then converge on the same profiles
based off the information they're all getting from the hiring company, leading
to a flurry of contacts in short bursts. Aside from looking through LinkedIn's
query logs or talking to someone who works there, I'm not sure how you could
verify either hypothesis, though.

------
Tichy
The problem seems to me rather to be the clients of those companies. I don't
envy those people in their call centers. Although I don't know how their job
is set up, perhaps they just get x$ per successfully referred employee, and
calling as many people as possible works.

------
InclinedPlane
It sucks how broken this part of the industry is.

I think a big reason why it's so broken is that it's easy to extract a lot of
money out of recruiting with a comparatively shallow level of effort.
Hopefully someday some disruptor will turn things upside down and fix things.

~~~
Flenser
I'd sign up as a candidate on any site that _only_ allows recruiters to get in
contact with candidates if they submit a company name and zip/post code. If it
also gave some stats as to how many candidates they had contacted/put to
interview/successfully placed that would make it much easier to filter out
time-wasters.

------
theogeer
I have a simple solution to the problem of recruiter phone calls. If I haven't
solicited them first I hang up on them as soon as they've identified
themselves as a recruiter. It's simple, efficient, and makes my point very
clearly.

------
mratzloff
This post inspired me... to remove 40 connections on LinkedIn. (Mostly
recruiters.)

------
general_failure
LinkedIn is now taking things to the next level by asking people to vouch for
other people's expertise with keywords like HTML, CSS, Design Patterns and
best of it all 'Product Specialist' .

------
madsravn
In a perfect world people would know what they were talking about. But
unfortunately that is rarely the case. Being a buzzword jockey goes mostly
unpunished today, so people just keep going with it.

------
socalnate1
I'm a little unclear as to why you had such a long conversation with someone
you were annoyed by about something you weren't interested in.

~~~
vinceguidry
Having to be rude sucks.

------
edandersen
"well yeah, if I'm going to be doing ASP.Net then I can't do that without
knowing HTML."

You would be surprised.

------
good_recruiter
anyone know how much these recruiters get paid?

Seems fairly easy to do an above average job considering the bar is so low.

I imagine you'd only have to work a few hours a day sending sensible emails
and you'd out perform the majority of recruiters.

------
_random_
The worst part is trying to be polite replying to those £35k e-mails.

------
sebbean
kind of a dick this guy, just hang up?

------
amerika_blog
Glad someone said it. I stopped answering recruiter calls several years ago,
and now I just email them back with a list of demands and the resume.

There is zero -- and I mean zero -- point in engaging them for conversation.
They will ask you stupid stuff, try to make you take stupid tests, etc., and
then try to sell you the job like a timeshare in Miami.

There are a few who do NOT do this, and I am eternally grateful when I
encounter one of those.

