

Ask HN: "So... What happened to the last guy?" - furyg3

Today I interviewed for an IT Director position at a non-profit development organization.  My initial feeling is that there's a better-than-average chance that they'll be offering me a position in the next few days.<p>I've thought a lot about switching to this sector (that's a whole other post...), and I'm certainly prepared for the salary hit that this will likely involve.  I'm also bracing myself for the IT budget, fully expecting that it will be a good source of interesting challenges.<p>That being said, when I asked "What happened to the last guy?" I received the answer "There was a difference in opinion relating to how much we should spend on IT-related issues."  Further prying didn't yield much, and I'd really like to get an idea as to <i>which</i> party had unrealistic expectations.<p>So my question is: I have an opportunity to make contact with the former IT Director... should I?  Would you?<p>One part of me thinks that information-gathering is always beneficial, but at the same time I may not want this person's personal feelings to bias my own with regards to this new partnership.  What would you do?
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JunkDNA
Talk to him, recognizing that you may be getting a very jaded opinion. Also, I
think it's a perfectly relevant question for you to ask for a ballpark dollar
amount of your budget and what they expect you to accomplish. I've
intentionally stayed away from positions where it looked like I was going to
be a "team" of one doing work that really needs 5 or 6 people to be done
right. I think this is a similar situation.

~~~
andreyf
Just to chime on on the opposite: don't talk to him, because you are nothing
like the last guy. Approach everyone without second thoughts, form your own
opinions, and convince them of a budget the last guy never dreamed of :) That
said, make sure your expectations regarding budgets/output match your
employers' expectations, but that has nothing to do with the last guy.

~~~
jerf
In addition to SwellJoe's point, which I endorse, I'd also add that this is a
_non-profit_. You think _profit-making_ companies treat IT as a cost center?
Just wait until you've seen a nonprofit. Consider a non-profit meant to help
the homeless; it is a trivial exercise to compute how many meals for the
homeless the IT budget is costing you. How do you expect to compete against
that? Convincing them that spending a bit more could reduce net costs is going
to be an even larger uphill battle, no matter how rationally right you are.
(Assuming you are at all right anyhow.)

~~~
sstrudeau
And even if the management (all the way up to the Executive Director) can see
through the fog of their daily firefighting to see the potential of expanded
an IT budget to make the overall mission more effective & efficient they often
can't shake money loose to do so because their donors insist that their
dollars go toward costs directly associated with serving the bottom-line
mission of the organization (e.g., to pay for meals served at a soup kitchen);
not for organizational "overhead."

Grants exist for tech-oriented projects, but it's very difficult to be
adaptive & iterative because the grant life-cycle is measured in years. Not
very "agile." Apply for a grant to make an improvement X using technology Y
this year. Next year, receive the grant but realize that improving X is no
longer relevant or technology Y is no longer optimal and you risk your grant
funding by changing course or stay your course and achieve a non-optimal (or
irrelevant) goal. Extremely frustrating.

Incentives in the non-profit world (especially for charities & social
services) are really skewed because the people paying for the services are not
the same people receiving the services, and the demand for services is
essentially unlimited.

------
SamAtt
I'd honestly ask yourself whether you're willing to walk away from an offer if
what the guy says is bad. If you are than talk with the guy. If not than I
wouldn't.

Because he's going to be bitter. So you're going to learn a lot of bad stuff
about the place you're starting at. That's a disadvantage in itself (because
you might develop his prejudices and run his old enemies the wrong way).

So if you aren't prepared to walk away than you're just torturing yourself
with the information and making yourself less effective at a time when you
need to be at your best (a.k.a. the beginning of your new job)

~~~
aaronblohowiak
To a certain extent, you already inherit his old enemies when you take over
his role.

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jacquesm
I'd absolutely try to contact my predecessor. Just in case you step in to a
catfight or a nasty can of worms, it can only be to your advantage.

Take what you hear with a grain of salt. Trust but verify I think was the
motto.

~~~
chollida1
Good advice!

I also think you managed to include every cliche and metaphor known to man in
that reply:)

~~~
jacquesm
That was sort of the point :)

Practicing my language skills.

~~~
gjm11
"When all's said and done, / at the end of the day / you've got to take the
bull by the horns."

(My father actually heard someone say exactly that in a meeting once.)

~~~
jacquesm
Funny! In dutch it is possible to talk for 20 minutes in proverbs/sayings,
make perfect sense and not repeat a single one.

They're also all untranslatable.

For instance:

He must have been hit by a windmill.

Or:

He has been pulled out of the clay.

In English they make no sense at all.

~~~
pg
[http://enlavalla.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/brueghel_prover...](http://enlavalla.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/brueghel_proverbs.jpg)

~~~
revorad
Ah so that's what the Fleet Foxes album cover is -
[http://www.mtv.co.uk/files//library/images/album_covers_2008...](http://www.mtv.co.uk/files//library/images/album_covers_2008/fleet_foxes_album_500_500.jpg)

Sorry, off topic.

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gyardley
To me, not getting a forthright answer (even after 'further prying') is a big
red flag on its own.

At this point, I would wait until you received the offer, and then say
something like "Look, unless there's a legal reason why you can't give me a
full explanation of what happened, I'm going to need to know the whole story
here. We're going to all be working very closely together and I need to
understand how the company makes key decisions like budgeting before I make a
decision to join you." If you still don't get a clear explanation, I'd think
very carefully about taking the job - there's landmines under the surface you
know nothing about.

~~~
furyg3
Actually, I was rather surprised with how forthright they were about it. They
could have easily said "he left to peruse other opportunities" and not leave
me thinking about any budget problems/disagreements, beyond the standard "non-
profits don't have a lot of money".

Where I was unclear, and where I didn't get a lot of follow up information,
was on what the disagreements were about. Did he think they needed an
expensive XYZ hardware solution when he could have done with a cheaper and/or
open-source one? Or was the organization requiring him to do the impossible
without giving him any resources? It sounded like whatever it was, it was
pervasive through their relationship.

My interviewers were non-technical, and so after some prying I decided to save
it for our next meeting.

~~~
iigs
Your interviewers were non-technical but your authority chain (hiring
manager?) knows enough about the situation that he/she sent the previous
person on his way. They may not know why the guy was asking for so much money
but they should be able to tell you how much it was and what he represented as
business value for said money.

If you can't get frank, direct honesty from that person I would consider not
taking the position. If you can, and your perception is that the previous
director was not creative commensurate with the requirements of this type of
position, or worse, was an empire builder, then it's probably no problem.

------
9oliYQjP
I have a client that's a non-profit. They've got the best IT infrastructure
I've ever seen. Non-profit does not always imply limited budgets. That said,
is the organization in question a charity? If it's a charity, then keep in
mind that most try to only spend a maximum of 25 cents of every donated dollar
on "administrative overhead"
([http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/content.view/c...](http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/content.view/cpid/48.htm)).
You can do some back-of-the-napkin calculations. If the budget's $1M, they're
spending $250K on administrative overhead. If there are 4 salaries, that
leaves you with $50K (based on $50K salary for each employee) for non-salary
expenses. You'll get a fraction of that for your IT budget.

I'd do this speculative estimate in addition to contacting the former guy. It
might provide some context.

~~~
SwellJoe
Also worth noting about working in non-profits, if you play your cards right,
you can get an awful lot of stuff for free or at a steep discount. Google has
been known to give away search appliances (even the big ones) to non-profits,
for example. My company gives away free licenses to non-profits (and it's not
like we're made of money, it's just how we roll). Most companies have a formal
discount process for non-profits.

I'm not familiar with a lot of non-profit IT departments, but the one I am
familiar with is very well-equipped, though moderately under-staffed.

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hurt
Assuming that your predecessor acted in a professional manner, then I would
probably contact the individual after I'd had a chance to take a look at how
everything had been laid out.

Non-profits may not have a lot of money for technology, and the recent
economic disruptions have really hit them hard due to the drop in funds they
get from corporate/other giving.

I would expect to run into a lot of older equipment all duct-taped together in
a non-logical fashion. This isn't something that you should blame the
predecessor for, sometimes we have to make non-optimal choices given the
constraints we work under.

As an aside about working in the non-profit sector, I've been employed as the
only IT person for a smaller nonprofit (~30 users or so) for almost 4 years.
You may have heard the phrase "the smaller the stakes the more fierce the
fight" from academia, it also holds true in the non-profit world. (and I
suspect in any human organization, but my experience has been mostly in the
academic/non-profit sector thus far.) Expect to run into budget issues, and
nasty personalities.

Fortunately, on the budget front organizations exist for IT software/hardware
giving that can really help out.

One that I've used: TechSoup.org

Many major software vendors offer discounts for non-profits if you look
around.

Plus you can always use linux/freebsd/openbsd/etc on commodity hardware to
help keep costs down. At the cost of time depending on your skill set.

I expect you may have already heard a lot or all of the above, so feel free to
ignore it!

Oh, and if you get the job, Congratulations!

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itgoon
Well, I'm going to be the dissenting voice.

I agree that they should give you better guidance as to your budget before you
accept the position.

As for contacting your predecessor, I wouldn't bother. You're not going to get
an honest answer out of anybody; everything said about the other will be
heavily influenced by the "breakup".

I'll summarize what happened: your predecessor picked a fight, and lost. Leave
it at that. The specifics may not be the least bit relevant, won't change what
you're going to have to do, and will likely taint your views of your
coworkers.

Go in with a clean slate, and make the job your own. Maybe you'll need to pick
the same fight. Maybe not. Why worry about it, when you're sure to have plenty
of immediate problems.

And again, I would expect better budget guidance before accepting, regardless.

------
crocowhile
Always try to get in touch with the other person. You are already listening to
a biased voice (the emplyoer), listening to the other one is the least you can
do for your career.

------
brk
Of course you should contact him, and/or anyone else you can reach that has
relevant information for you.

I wouldn't ask him for inside dirt on the HR admin's tryst in the conference
room, but questions about the job, the organization, and the people are charge
are certainly fair game. Unless they are trying to hide something or lie to
you, and in that case, it is still the right thing to do for you to
investigate.

People seem to have this belief that potential employer or employee should
only contact a small subset of officially sanctioned information channels. A
prospective employer shouldn't do something like call your current boss with
reference questions without your opinion, and similarly you shouldn't seek
information from sources that might put the employer at risk.

Take whatever knowledge you gain from contacting him and weigh that against
what they have told you. Go back to them and be upfront, tell them the former
employee told you X,Y,Z and that you'd like to get their response. A good
organization will respect your thoroughness. A bad org will panic and be
defensive, and that should be considered as well.

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tom_b
This is not directly related to your question, but as someone who stepped from
the corporate world to the non-profit world (medical research center
affiliated with university hospital), I can say the pay is lower but the
freedom is greater.

I'm more in charge of projects, trusted to make technical decisions and set
direction, and seem to get more respect as a practitioner here. Since I was a
tech lead on a project in the big corp world, I can contrast the two similar
experiences. I'm just more autonomous here.

Downsides include a lack of user trust (previous software devs here tended to
be a little tougher for people to deal with and were more prone to saying 'no'
to requests). University researcher mindset is historically aimed at having
software dev done directly by a research team member rather than trusting a
centralized IT team.

Good communication is more critical here. Learning how to express ideas in
multiple ways is much more important - I have to be able to both talk over an
idea and present a visual display as well. It is also assumed that you will
understand a researcher's problem domain rather quickly, which is stressful,
but fun. You have to plan for a huge range of IT skills, from the person who
can kind of use a browser to the self-taught SQL expert who I probably should
just add to my team directly.

------
romland
Regarding whether you should contact the former IT director: to put it in two
words:

Of course.

You will spend eight hours every day at that place, you want to gather as much
information as you can. Naturally you have to filter/sort/disregard, but that
is the next step.

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davidw
I'd definitely ask him, as well as ask to have a look around the
facilities/code/whatever. It's not like a non-profit has a bunch of really
high-value IP, I would think.

------
flybrand
Yes, you should absolutely contact the predecessor. It is good corporate
diligence and failing to do so would be a bad decision on your part.

Have a script put together of what you are going to ask; \- Start with an
overview. \- Allow them to back away if they feel uncomfortable about a
question. \- Get a feel for what really went on. \- I agree with Jacquesm -
take it with a grain of salt.

15 minutes on the phone with the individual will put you six months ahead if
you take the position, or provide insight as to why you should pass.

------
billswift
You should definitely contact him, unless you would be willing to quit almost
right away if they start jerking you around somehow; which I don't think would
be a good idea.

Several commenters have said you should take what he says with a grain of
salt; You should take anything anybody says with a grain of salt, even if you
think they are being completely aboveboard, you could be wrong, and you don't
know what kinds of incentives and conflicts may be influencing them. And you
should be alert for honest misunderstandings as well.

------
CyberFonic
By all means possible talk to the "last guy". Then take what he says with a
grain of salt. Both the employer and employee will have very different
perspectives about the split. You are the sole judge as to whether it's a
warning sign.

Personally, I think that the danger sign are the words "Non-Profit" which in
turn means "No Money" which is what you pretty much learnt in the interview.
In my experience, unless you can routinely "Turn water into wine" you are
going to struggle getting funding for anything and don't expect to get paid on
time either. Cashflow or rather its absence makes for "challenges".

Putting aside all the technical and financial considerations, do you
passionately believe in the goals and mission statement of this organization?
Only if your passion is total would I recommend taking the job, anything less
and you'll be looking for an exit strategy within the year if not sooner.

------
synnik
I don't see the need to talk to him.

For one thing, it sounds like your satisfaction there will boil down to your
personal agenda. If you are trying to build a world-class IT shop, you'll
struggle. If you are trying to help the non-profit do their work, which will
clearly entail sacrifices in IT, you'll be fine.

Also, if further prying did not give more info, then they expect you to make
decisions based on what they told you. If you need more info, you may have
differences in communication styles that will lead to problems down the road.

------
lhuang
Absolutely. At the very least this guy will help you read between the lines
and act as a good gut-check to your interview experience.

I would reiterate what Tom_B said about greater responsibility but I think it
should be noted the kind of non-profit he worked at. Depending on
organization, its mission, and people non-profits can be no better than the
corporate machine.

Talking to the former director would lend some valuable insight into the
culture and what its "really" like on the day-to-day.

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DanielStraight
What if you told them, "If I get this position, I'll be expecting a budget
between _x_ and _y_. Does this seem about right?"

~~~
catone
Or how about, "If I get this position, what sort of budget can I expect to be
working with and what will I be expected to produce with that budget?"

~~~
DanielStraight
Yeah, that's better.

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holdenc
You'll need to find out what your budget is sooner or later. And you might
find that "an interesting challenge" means building everything from used
desktop computers. As long as that's inline with your expectations, you should
be fine.

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psranga
My two cents: companies check references on their prospective employees. The
ethical ones ask you for a list and claim to contact only them; the unethical
ones will contact anybody they please.

Your contacting the ex-employee is you checking up on the _employer's_
references. To keep it completely above board, you should ask the org. for a
list of references to check up the job. And if they don't list the previous
guy, ideally, you shouldn't contact him. But be prepared for no offer
irrespective of what they answer. :)

W/o more info, I can pretty much assume that the previous director was the one
who had unrealistic expectations (i.e., wanted to spend too much). :)

