
How Much Does It Cost You in Wages if You “Sound Black?” - joshfraser
http://www.freakonomics.com/2008/07/07/how-much-does-it-cost-you-in-wages-if-you-sound-black/
======
gamegoblin
I have long suspected this to be the case. I have found the most successful
black people in my sphere are those who can easily code-switch (this is the
linguistics term for switching between language varieties).

I would conjecture that there is a lot of stigma associated with AAVE (African
American Vernacular English) due to rappers and gangs and so on due to media
portrayal, so even a rather intelligent person who communicated in AAVE rather
than Standard American English would be grouped with the others.

Being from the South, I would be interested to see the same study performed on
how much it costs one if they sound "redneck".

~~~
azakai
> Being from the South, I would be interested to see the same study performed
> on how much it costs one if they sound "redneck".

The article did examine "sounding south" as well, with results similar to
"sounding black".

~~~
gamegoblin
I mainly meant sounding "redneck" as in "rural/uneducated" rather than a
standard southern accent. I am from a large city in the South, so there is a
heavy distinction between "southern" accents and "redneck" accents. Even here
in the city, there is a stigma against "redneck" accents (but not southern
accents).

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readme
A lot of Ebonics is slang. Is this really about sounding black, or is it just
about sounding unprofessional? What if I went to a job interview and said
"dude" and "bro" every other word (lets assume I'm not interviewing at a
startup)? Infotainment distorting reality to fit its presentation.

~~~
dizzystar
There was no mention in the article about Ebonics. The article states you
"sound black." All that means is that your accent sounds black, or at least,
not Midwestern Suburban American.

What you are describing is someone that does not represent a minimal standard
of professionalism, which is a very different thing.

My god, sometimes I wonder where people on Hacker News comes from. You mean to
tell me you never heard Will Smith talk? He sounds totally black and totally
educated. You never worked with a person that has a "black" accent?

If there is any real fault to this article, it is that the study was
presumably done in and around Chicago, where racism to a level that offensive
to any taste, is rampant.

 _This culture of racism_ is what the article is attempting to describe:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo1LPf9mnyU>

~~~
argv_empty
_My god, sometimes I wonder where people on Hacker News comes from. You mean
to tell me you never heard Will Smith talk? He sounds totally black and
totally educated. You never worked with a person that has a "black" accent?_

And given this distinction between "sounding black" and "sounding
unprofessional," one might harbor some doubt as to whether the study in
question controlled for perceived professionalism when estimating the effect
of perceived blackness. One might even go so far as to post a comment
suggesting that factor might have been overlooked or conflated with the
phenomenon being estimated.

~~~
dizzystar
You bring up a human-nature attitude and the proof is around us all the time,
whether you are discussing gender, race, age, height, beauty, etc. All of this
has been beaten to a dead horse.

Anecdote: I'm a white guy who grew up in the inner city, and one of the most
important things I ever did for myself was ridding my ghetto accent. The
difference in the way people perceived me over the years is very different.

The simple fact is that humans use short-cuts all the time. I may not like the
short-cuts, but I can't blame people that heard my inner-city ("black") accent
and assumed that I went to schools with lower education standards and that I
am culturally different than they are. Bot assumptions are pretty spot-on, to
be honest.

~~~
argv_empty
_You bring up a human-nature attitude_

Did I? Well, I suppose taking a skeptical view towards new research could be
described as a "human-nature attitude." I really don't know what exactly
you're reading into readme's and my posts.

------
ChuckMcM
Its an interesting analysis, the general principle isn't whether you 'sound
black' or not, its whether your sound 'correct socio-economic class' or not.
Similar research was done in England comparing the wages and job prospects of
people with accents from working class towns and neighborhoods versus people
with accents from upper class towns and neighborhoods. (and they were all
white, no racial biases) finding essentially the same result, if you talked
like an upper class person you were treated better.

On a personal level I grew up with 'air force' kids since my Dad was in the
Air Force and we moved from base to base, and we all spoke alike (in terms of
accent) pretty much regardless of race. One year when my Dad was stationed at
Andrews AFB, one of my friends, who was black, was taunted by other blacks in
our public school in Maryland because he 'sounded white' which I found really
confusing. It was hard on him and I really didn't know what to make of it.
That said, later in life I found that generally teasing on accents was common.
So it was clearly something which caused others to respond.

------
stcredzero
To steal an idea from and in the spirit of pg's "What You Can't Say" essay:
<http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html>

We might look at smug, entitled "aristos" in a period French Revolution film,
or look at slave owners in a pre-Civil War period piece and think ourselves
better. We might look at those characters treating the urban poor like dirt or
see a smug and shortsighted slave owner talking about the music of black
slaves as if it were a primitive sign of their inferiority -- and shake our
heads and feel smart knowing what we know as 21st century persons. But in the
spirit of "What You Can't Say" let me say that there is just as much
shortsighted abusive smarminess, smug superiority, and shallow judgment of
people by their superficial features in our day as in those times past. And
yes, this includes the West Coast, the Bay Area, and no small part of the
startup scene.

Remember that the historical persons such that characters mentioned above were
based on thought of themselves as cultured, enlightened, and sensitive, much
as many of today's knowledge workers do. Remember also that many of them were
utterly blind to their own shallow judgements and earnestly thought of
themselves as winners in a meritocracy, as many persons do today. Now note
that only a minority of such individuals were actually as enlightened as they
thought they were.

And lastly, there are those among you who have or will overcome the blindness
of your own subculture and time, but remember that only very rarely does this
come without some form of shock, surprise, or pain.

EDIT: Another instance where we can relate some media to the subject -- the
powerful executives portrayed in Mad Men equated sounding like a top-tier
university white male with "sounding professional." They equated looking like
one of them with "looking professional." Just as much of that goes on today as
did back then, it's just that the styles have changed.

------
ck2
I often try to guess what country I am talking to when I call technical
support but it dawned on me that they seemed insulted when I ask if they are
in India. I am only genuinely curious but they seem to think I am looking down
on that fact.

The way support in India use American names and try to fake Texan or
Australian accents sometimes makes me think they do not have much cultural
pride (when they should). If a company is clearly outsourcing they should not
try to hide it.

~~~
tsotha
>The way support in India use American names and try to fake Texan or
Australian accents sometimes makes me think they do not have much cultural
pride (when they should).

It doesn't have anything to do with pride. They make more money if they sound
local to their customers.

~~~
ck2
Yikes so I might be costing them their job or demerits or something when I try
to call them out on it. Didn't mean to do that.

~~~
tsotha
I doubt you got anyone in trouble. But the companies that run call centers
have classes in which their employees are trained to speak in the accent you
hear. None of this is happening by accident.

------
Xcelerate
> 84 percent of white speakers were correctly identified as white, and 77
> percent of black speakers were correctly identified as black.

Why is this? For people who are born in America, I don't understand why some
would sound different than others. How can you possibly tell race just by
listening to someone's voice, unless there are anatomical differences?

~~~
rachelbythebay
It's not just one country in terms of language. There are lots of little
variances here and there which provide certain signals. For instance, the big
freeway is just "101" around here. However, in Southern California, the same
route is frequently called "the 101". They tend to use "the" in front of the
numbers for whatever reason.

There are many of these things which can give you some insight on someone's
background. Is it soda? Or pop? Or "coke" as a generic term?

Do you use "hella" or "wicked" as a modifier, as in "hella cool" or "wicked
fast"?

There's the whole "ya'll" thing, and don't forget "all ya'll". Are you
"fixin'" to do something? How about "ain't" and "busted"?

This is just word choice. There are all sorts of different ways to pronounce
the same words, too, and those also give you some idea of where someone might
be from.

~~~
teeray
My first trip to the west coast afforded me some strange looks when I dropped
"pissah" into a sentence.

------
uncoder0
[2008]

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tsotha
Who cares? If you don't want to pay an economic penalty speak standard
English.

~~~
orangethirty
Define standard English.

~~~
tsotha
The kind of English you hear from newscasters. No slang, correct grammar, and
full enunciation.

~~~
InclinedPlane
Just not the black newscasters, mind.

~~~
Dylan16807
What are you talking about? Black newscasters are perfectly good at diction.

