
DOJ Cautions Employers Seeking H-1B Visas Not to Discriminate Against US Workers - protomyth
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-cautions-employers-seeking-h-1b-visas-not-discriminate-against-us-workers
======
negrit
The consulting firms have been abusing the H-1B system for years. I've been
documenting it for couple years here:
[http://www.jobsintech.io/immigration_companies#name=&city=&s...](http://www.jobsintech.io/immigration_companies#name=&city=&state=&page=)

You can clearly see that the top companies using H-1B visas are consulting
firms.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
A simple solution for the consulting companies would be a rule requiring all
H-1B sponsors to have at least 51% of their domestic staff be US citizens.
That would ruin the wacked out business model of the body shops and return to
a fair playing field for Americans in their own country.

~~~
anarazel
Not sure if that's sufficient, but I wanted to answer to your "Americans..."
comment: This isn't just an issue for Americans, it's also bad for actually
highly qualified foreigners and other companies. Because a few companies
gobble up all the visas, the rest have to go through the lottery. Which
actually makes it hard to hire highly qualified immigrants, because it takes
agrees to see of you're lucky.

I've been through this, and it sucks. In the end I got another type of visa,
but that cost a lot of energy and money.

~~~
guitarbill
Couldn't agree more. If anything, a lottery system encourages spamming
candidates whatever quality over carefully selecting high quality candidates.

Plus, nothing says "Welcome" than waiting several months for a decision in the
visa purgatory. So that also discourages high quality applicants who have
other choices.

------
KKKKkkkk1
For a few years, I worked at a US government joint that abused the visa system
to reduce its labor costs. The junior positions were staffed 100% by foreign
workers who were being paid 25% to 50% of market rates.

The problem is that the US immigration system is rife with selective
enforcement. Many rules are open to interpretation, and officers have full
discretion as to how they interpret them. In this, the US is unique among
nations that uphold the rule of law.

~~~
adrr
Easiest solution is stack rank all H1b applicants by salary and fill the quota
with based on ranking. Top talent in theory should be making the most money so
we wouldn't risk losing them.

~~~
gambiting
Hmmm. I have a friend who has an extremely specific PhD and was offered a job
in Atlanta, for a position that would be hard to fill otherwise as his
expertise is quite unique.

So on one hand, you have a person with unique expertise, but on the other, he
would be joining as a junior, so he would be paid a great salary - for that
level. But he would be competing for visas with Seniors who will be paid more
at other companies, purely because of their age/experience?

~~~
lovich
Isn't that a market based solution though? Nothing against your friend but if
a company is willing to spend more on a senior than your friends company is
going to pay him, that indicates that the senior is more valuable to economy

~~~
gambiting
Sure, but it will lead to a solution where only top programmers at highest
positions get visas? I mean, I can see the logic why some people would want it
that way, but surely, there's value to be provided in hiring someone at a
junior position and growing them from there?

~~~
PeterisP
The whole point of why H1B exists is that yes, only specialists with expertise
you cannot buy locally (because of unavailability, not price) should get H1B
visas, and that's generally at the highest positions, since you definitely
_can_ get local entry-level specialists or generic good programmers.

There's value to be provided in hiring someone at a junior position and
growing them from there, but H1B is explicitly not for that - unless the
position literally has _zero_ candidates locally, it doesn't/shouldn't qualify
for H1B.

------
ziszis
H1b visas have primarily been used by consulting companies to bring in less
expensive junior engineers (<$100k) [1]. If new directives make it harder to
sponsor junior engineers, it will shift the mix to more senior engineers. This
will shift the supply/demand curves, so that US salaries will come down for
senior engineers and go up for junior engineers.

[1] [http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-
Sponsor.aspx](http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx)

~~~
acchow
More demand for senior engineers will decrease their salaries?

~~~
ziszis
More supply of senior engineers will decrease salaries. The visas used to be
taken primarily by junior devs preventing (some) senior devs from getting one.
Senior devs may no longer be blocked which increases supply. Demand is
unchanged, at least in the short-term.

~~~
skookum
In my experience of hiring engineers across several companies over the past
decade, the pool of senior SDEs who are both not already in the US and willing
to move to the US is so small that I'd be surprised if it even registered in
the overall H1B flow. Virtually all the non-resident senior SDEs I saw getting
hired in my orgs ended up being H1B transfers who got hired straight out of
college into the US and grew into seniority while here.

------
skookum
This also came out and is more narrowly focused on areas relevant to frequent
discussion on HN:
[https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/nativedocume...](https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/nativedocuments/PM-6002-0142-H-1BComputerRelatedPositionsRecission.pdf)

SUBJECT: Rescission of the December 22, 2000 “Guidance memo on H1B computer
related positions”

(edit to add:) Some key passages from the USCIS memorandum: "... an entry-
level computer programmer position would not generally qualify as a position
in a specialty occupation ...

Based on the current version of the Handbook, the fact that a person may be
employed as a computer programmer and may use information technology skills
and knowledge to help an enterprise achieve its goals in the course of his or
her job is not sufficient to establish the position as a specialty
occupation."

~~~
rhizome
_"... an entry-level computer programmer position would not generally qualify
as a position in a specialty occupation ..._

So _that 's_ why every job is "Senior Developer" now.

~~~
madeofpalk
"Senior Developer" is the new "Entry-level developer". Now we have job title
inflation.

------
mavelikara
Also, USCIS has announced plans to combat H-1B fraud [1]. They seem to provide
two provisions with this:

1) An avenue [2] for members of the workforce to report H-1B abuse. People on
H-1B are offered some protection against retaliation.

2) Targeted onsite visits at worksites of employers who have larger fraction
of their employees on H-1Bs, and those who sent employees to other locations.

Together, this seems to be aimed at curbing H-1B abuse by staffing companies.
Some Silicon Valley employers - like Apple, Cisco etc - who use these staffing
companies extensively might also be affected. But overall, this should be good
news for both H-1B employees and citizens/permanent residents.

[1]: [https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-
worker...](https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-
workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-and-fashion-models/combating-fraud-and-
abuse-h-1b-visa-program)

[2]: An email address really - ReportH1BAbuse@uscis.dhs.gov

~~~
int_19h
You know what's the fastest way to curb H-1B fraud?

Make it so that if an H-1B visa holder complains, and their complaint is found
to be valid, they are entitled to apply for a green card immediately, and get
EAD for the duration of their application.

~~~
rfw
Then you get H-1B fraud complaint fraud ;)

~~~
r00fus
I'm fairly sure an H1B'er isn't going to seek extra USCIS attention unless
things are bad.

------
solutionyogi
I am so torn on this. On one hand, I spent 10 years on H1B in the US and the
amount of H1B abuse that goes on is crazy. On the other hand, I would not have
received my H1B under current guidelines.

~~~
ebola1717
Yeah, this policy is very clearly meant to curb _immigration_ , not H1B abuse.

~~~
AlexB138
Can you explain why that is? I'm not clear on how that's the case.

------
cromwellian
I'm concerned about the effect this will have on F-1 Visa holders, if they
can't convert to H1-b, they'll take their graduate degree back to their home
country which is a net negative for us.

This seems to be throwing out the baby with the bath water, if you want to fix
the body shop consulting firm issue, then target that. "Entry level
programmer" is very broad, it could mean a guy with no experience who just
graduated MIT with expertise in machine learning, but no projects under his
belt.

~~~
jordanb
This is still predicated on the assumption that there's a STEM shortage right?

Almost everyone I know who has a graduate degree in CS came here on a visa.
The reason is because employers don't reward graduate degrees in CS with
compensation commiserate with their costs.

So US nationals make the rational decision to not pursue a graduate degree.
But if you're a foreign national, getting a graduate degree from a US school
increases the likelihood of getting a Visa. So they make a different rational
calculation.

If employers want their programmers to have graduate degrees they can make the
bump in pay worthwhile, and American students will start pursuing graduate
degrees.

~~~
kelnos
> Almost everyone I know who has a graduate degree in CS came here on a visa.
> The reason is because employers don't reward graduate degrees in CS with
> compensation commiserate with their costs.

I think the main reason for that is because the vast majority of software jobs
do not even remotely require a graduate degree in CS.

A lot of great research into ML, data science, distributed systems, etc., is
driven by people with graduate degrees, but that's still a very tiny part of
the programmer-job pie.

------
techk
No matter how you frame the issue, call it an abuse, or try to solve it, I
don't think anything will change other than some minor adjustments. Jobs are
not going to magically appear or wages rise.

India/China has a huge supply of engineers across the board (good, bad,
senior, junior etc.,). And US companies always want to maximize their profits.
So increasing the bar on H-1B visas will increase the quality of H-1B's making
their way to US.(very competent, hard working, willing to work for lower wages
in the initial years).

This is a huge benefit for technology companies who can directly recruit from
these countries for US offices, which they were not doing before due to
lottery uncertainties, and instead had to rely on L-1 route. (recruit for
local office, then transfer)

As for the other US jobs that were being filled by low skilled H-1B's, they
will simply move offshore/nearshore/remote or replaced by AI in few years.
This is a big win for consulting firms as their offshore profitability per
employee is 3 times higher than onsite. Given a choice, they would want all
their employees offshore, and the only reason they had to bring in some % of
H-1B's was on the US client companies request, which they may do away with
now.

Bottomline: Protectionism did not work for manufacturing, and will not work
for Tech either.

~~~
tangocom
Protectionism does work. Just ask the Lawyers and the Airline pilots. The
reason software engineers are not paid as well now is because we don't have a
Bar association or Labor union to keep out the low rate foreign competition.

~~~
nova22033
>The reason software engineers are not paid as well

The annual mean wage for Software engineers is higher than that for lawyers
and pilots.

[https://www.bls.gov/oes/2015/may/oes_nat.htm](https://www.bls.gov/oes/2015/may/oes_nat.htm)

~~~
tangocom
Please double-check the link you posted on mean salaries:

Programmers $98K Lawyers $136K Airline pilots $136K (not including big
retirement benefits)

The link you posted proves the point I was making.

------
nickpsecurity
One in my area straight-up said "H1-B Visa's Preferred" on the job notice. Not
even worried about hiding it. I wonder if any are doing that now.

~~~
lifesucks1
It took me less than 5 seconds to come up with one. DOJ needs people to
complain about this??? Seriously its wide out in the open. They can just go
through job boards and figure what is going on in less than a few days and
know which companies to prosecute.

Let us break this position below up. Basically no one other than H1b/F1 are
welcome. Show me what specialized skill is needed in the requirements. Why
shouldn't an american apply for these jobs?

[https://www.indeed.com/cmp/American-Technology-Consulting-
LL...](https://www.indeed.com/cmp/American-Technology-Consulting-
LLC/jobs/Business-Analyst-1e9f82e47a505a26?sjdu=QwrRXKrqZ3CNX5W-O9jEvYFcACbv-
DthnUj_IRiMl_guugm44-mzV0A5DRJMTjrbwqOA599AiEevu5SiwhGxLZRCGTTWuXZZK_bCOrO_1EA)

~~~
mavelikara
[IANAL] Advertising a job specifically targeting H-1Bs is illegal. You should
consider writing in to ReportH1BAbuse@uscis.dhs.gov about it.

------
jitix
As an Indian software engineer on H1B I totally support this idea. I see a lot
of Indians working with the consulting companies where entire departments are
staffed by H1B workers on low (65-70k) salary. That kind of work is degrading
even for the engineers who don't get any raises, are overworked and have very
few benefits. But this is how things are.

However my main concern is that because the lawmakers don't understand the
intricacies of the ecosystem, they might create laws that implement blanket
restrictions on software engineers across different domains (that have real
shortage in the US market) and salary bands. The earlier proposal for 130k
salary band also doesn't make sense since the cost of living, and the
salaries, vary widely across different cities.

For example I work at a startup working on some niche technologies and we have
had real difficulties hiring good people even though we pay way above market
wage for the location (NC).

~~~
an_cap
"That kind of work is degrading even for the engineers who don't get any
raises, are overworked and have very few benefits. But this is how things
are." My sister recently completed a coding boot-camp in NYC but had to go
back to India to work as a software developer at a startup for $12,000 / year.
She would LOVE to be 'degraded' by a 65k-70k job.

~~~
jitix
It depends. 12k in India is a good salary in most cities whereas 65k in New
York won't even enable you to rent a studio apartment.

My last salary in India was around 15k a year and when I moved here I was
initially getting 65k during probation period. Despite NC being a rather cheap
place I immediately saw my relative spending power (eating out, etc) go down.
The only good thing is that electronics are cheaper compared to wage levels.

------
known
Too late now [https://qz.com/889524](https://qz.com/889524)

------
mjad2003
The company I have been working as a contractor for several years decided last
year to cancel all contractor contracts. Most American contract workers had
their contracts cancelled at the end of calendar year 2016, only a few
Americans were extended past the beginning of the new calendar year but all
H-1B visa contractors were hired into permanent positions. Now as one of the
extended American contractors, I have been notified my contract will be
terminated, though I am highly qualified and have a very heavy work load. I
believe during this month I will be called upon to train another less
qualified worker in my current duties. This is occurring all through tech
industries.

------
douche
Good. Fuck the bodyshop consulting firms.

We work with a few of them, and they are universally terrible.

------
l3m0ndr0p
Many Financial Brick and Mortar, like JP Morgan Chase uses H1Bs quite heavily.
Many of the job positing listed show this.

H1Bs are used as a cheap source of labor and nothing more.

~~~
Panini_Jones
> H1Bs are used as a cheap source of labor and nothing more.

Really? Even at companies like Google and FB?

------
rodionos
There is H-1B, but there is also H-4 (dependents), as well as L-1/L-2. My
prediction is that if H-1B visas will be squeezed, we'll see a pick-up in L-1.

[https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/8c9bb9cc/8/#fullscreen](https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/8c9bb9cc/8/#fullscreen)

~~~
praneshp
What has H-4 got to do with anything? You can't work on that.

~~~
rodionos
You can't, but you can search for a job with an employer who would be willing
to sponsor an H1-B. Being in the country makes it much easier.

~~~
mavelikara
> you can search for a job with an employer who would be willing to sponsor an
> H1-B

What is wrong in doing that?

~~~
rodionos
It causes incremental demand for H1-B visas from H-4 dependents whose
specialized skills were not sufficient to warrant an issuance of an H1-B visa
in the first place. This could be happening at the expense of more qualified
H1-B candidates without physical presence in the country, as well as at the
expense of citizens and permanent residents.

~~~
zerr
> whose specialized skills were not sufficient to warrant an issuance of an
> H1-B visa in the first place

And how this changes if you apply for H1B while in US (on H-4)? Are the
requirements softened?

~~~
rodionos
If the candidate on H-4 visa is physically present in the country and is able
to attend onsite interviews, this increases his/her chances and thus creates
more competition with American workers.

~~~
zerr
If "specialized skills" are not sufficient for H1B, it doesn't matter where
the candidate resides...

And if the candidate has enough those specialized skills - what's the problem?

~~~
rodionos
Free shipping matters and so does removing the logistics overhead and the
risks associated with a potential candidate. Moving overseas labor right next
to your door surely increases the pressure on the domestic labor market. I'm
an outsider and the State Department unfortunately doesn't publish statistics
on visa type transitions, e.g. how many people went from H-4 to H1-B, as well
as from J-1 to H1-B. J-1 for instance is a visa type for cultural exchange and
it's been known a major vehicle of abuse and illegal immigration because. J-1
has been replacing lower-skilled labor however.

~~~
zerr
We are not talking about abusing of H1B, but when the candidate really
satisfies the requirements and the salary offered is on par or better compared
to local worker at the same level. So we agree that "importing" skilled people
is good for the country.

~~~
rodionos
I actually talked about a different subject, namely secondary effects. I
argued that the displacement of jobs with H-1B visa holders is greater that
the exact number of H-1Bs due to additional pool of H-4 candidates who are now
in a better position to compete for new job openings.

~~~
mavelikara
> due to additional pool of H-4 candidates

Counting out H-4 EADs [1], the spouse on H-4 has to apply for an H-1B, go
through the lottery, prove his/her qualifications, and only then get a job. So
no, being on H-4 does not automatically get one a job.

[1] at which point they are only one step away from permanent residency

------
known
Not an easy task [http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-
among-...](http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-among-most-
corrupt-while-doing-business-abroad.htm)

------
ThomPete
Its a welcome change and really should have been done a long time ago. Not
only does it create unfair competion into the US market it also allow
companies to underpay their employers.

------
spectistcles
You're just going to see more remote work. No one's going to want to lose
those profits once they have them.

