
Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics? - kjullien
Hello HN,<p>I&#x27;m a junior dev and have been employed at my current work place for over a year.
I love technology and code, less so humans. A lot less. If I had to guess I would say that I probably have some form of social anxiety&#x2F;autism that makes it really painful&#x2F;difficult&#x2F;demanding for me to interact with other people, so I usually try to keep these &quot;interactions&quot; to a very strict minimum required to achieve the tasks I am attributed.<p>Now, recently, I&#x27;ve come to realize more and more, how much trouble this actually causes in the end for me, as I am perceived as that &quot;odd&quot; guy, that never says a thing, never hangs out at work place events, that you simply give tasks to, and ultimately the job gets done.<p>As I was searching to limit human-human interactions as much as I could, I ended up being treated like a machine, go figure...
I get attributed tasks almost exclusively by sales&#x2F;marketing people with absolutely no understanding of anything appart from the end result they want. Sometimes that ends up being a 2 word &quot;spec&quot;, an unachievable task, some month long back and forths where they realize every other step of the way that what I implemented, which was what they asked, was not what they wanted, etc. So I am starting to get a little fed up by all of this and am at quite a loss when it comes to actually addressing these issues. I try, but I figure that I might as well document myself on the process instead of the usual trial and error one could go through.<p>Anyhow, as stated in the title of this Ask HN, does anybody have any ressources to recommend to someone that just started his carrier and has a demonstrated history of complete lack of such skills ?
Anything is welcome really, books, documentaries, blog post, whatever you might have come across.<p>Thanks!
======
hyperpape
I'm surprised no one has made this distinction, but you're really talking
about three kinds of communication:

1\. Functional communication about the job you're doing

2\. Social conversations

3\. Office politics

There is overlap: #2 will help grease the wheels for #1 and #3, while #1
becomes #3 when a situation is dysfunctional/you rise in the corporate
hierarchy.

Despite the overlap, these are fundamentally different things, and perhaps it
will help your anxiety to realize that you don't have to be a social butterfly
to do well in an office.

Myself, I've gotten a lot better at small talk (a few years doing deliveries
to construction companies as a city-boy with a grad school education will
force you to get out of your comfort zone), and I can crack a joke, but I'm
still not the life of a party, and I come across as a little weird. Still, I
can communicate with people at work.

Be honest, be yourself but do try to get past the hangups you feel, and try to
understand what other people care about, how you can help them, and put them
at ease. You can be on the quiet side and still do those things.

Beyond that, I'd add that you should find some people who write or speak about
workplace behavior. Maybe even read something alien: something from someone in
marketing, sales or a "people" job, and treat it like a matter you can study
and practice, just like anything else you'd do.

~~~
pc86
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but there is nothing dysfunctional
about office politics. Politics is how you get something done with a large
group of people who have different individual goals, that's it. It's a
necessity for achieving something greater than any of those people could
achieve on their own.

~~~
adrianratnapala
> but there is nothing dysfunctional about office politics.

I think hyperpape was saying it is dysfunctional when "... functional
communication" becomes office politics. E.g. if engineers have technical
disagreement about, say, whether to use one or two thread pools in server XYZ,
then they should be able to sort it out at the technical level.

Failure modes are when (a) someone decides to play politics in order impose
their technical vision or (b) the technical discussion becomes a win-or-loose
matter that somehow weighs on the balance of political power.

The bit about "rise in the corporate hierarchy" is because at high levels, you
aren't making purely technical decisions; decisions will inherently involve
steering people rather than things. That means it is right and proper for
communication to deal with the political aspect that would be dysfunctional at
a lower level.

------
nikk1
Definitely read _How to Win Friends and Influence People_ by Dale Carnegie.

However, just reading a book on this subject is not enough. You will actually
have to apply the principles in your everyday life. Dealing with people is
kind of like an art. And just like any art (like painting) you can only get
better with deliberate practice. Doing this might feel a little uncomfortable
at first, but it's how we grow as people. Where I work, employees are offered
tuition reimbursement for taking their official courses
([https://www.dalecarnegie.com/en](https://www.dalecarnegie.com/en)). The
Carnegie courses helped me take the knowledge from these books and put it into
practice. It was incredibly helpful for me, and aided in overcoming some of my
social anxiety.

Another user also recommended toastmasters, which is probably an equal
alternative if you can't get your company to pay for the courses.

~~~
AchieveLife
IMO, the book is over-hyped and not that helpful.

It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book and are
not being genuine in their interaction. 'Masks' are a great way to prevent
authentic connection.

I've found better utility in a combination of books about positive psychology,
emotions in relationships, and analytical psychology.

~~~
ThePadawan
I've often tried to find better methods of communicating with people, but I'm
still struggling with one major problem:

What do you do when someone literally does not react to anything you say in
any way whatsoever? I could tell them "Yeah, X sounds like a great idea!" or
"Please don't do that, I think X would be very harmful to the project", and
their reaction would be the same "OK thanks, guess I'll go do X now".

Then if doing X results in failure and they learn nothing from the experience.

~~~
trhaynes
I wonder if there's a way to ask the right questions so they can come to the
conclusion that X is a bad idea, on their own and before doing it. For
example, asking about the merits of X, then acknowledging them and asking
about possible downsides. If they don't mention the downside you had in mind,
ask about other potential downsides. You'll also learn more about their
decision-making process, how deeply they've thought through it, what weights
they ascribe to the various pros/cons, etc.

Related to the concept of Strategic Questioning
([https://www.context.org/iclib/ic40/peavey/](https://www.context.org/iclib/ic40/peavey/))

~~~
ThePadawan
Is that really what is happening though?

They don't react to my statement at all - I don't think they disregard it, I
think they don't listen to it in the first place.

------
josephmosby
Two books that really helped me were Nonviolent Communication (Marshall
Rosenberg) and Radical Acceptance (Tara Brach). The specific techniques
outlined in the books were helpful, but I benefited more from the mentality
that you can communicate the same message in multiple tones and receive
different results. Some of my colleagues have also done improv comedy courses
and experienced the same outcomes.

I also received some pretty sound advice around three years into my career:
"just assume that people mean nothing more or less than the literal words they
said to you. Don't read more into it than they actually say." I found that if
I felt awkward about a situation, I was trying to read in between lines to
find some reason that a person secretly hated me or were annoyed by me. They
had never actually said or done anything to indicate that they even thought
twice about me once I walked away, but I made up all sorts of stories about
them in my head.

~~~
skullt
Strictly taking everything people say at face value is great way to become
somebody who "can't take a hint." The problem is that there are many things
people want to communicate but would rather not say because they're likely to
lead to uncomfortable situations.

Suppose a coworker offers you mints or gum every time you speak to them. If
you only take their words literally, you'll think, "Gee, what a generous
person," and miss entirely their true meaning: "Your breath stinks and it's
bothering me but I don't want to hurt your feelings, so I'm giving you out
where we can both pretend you fixed the problem before anyone noticed."

~~~
BeetleB
>Strictly taking everything people say at face value is great way to become
somebody who "can't take a hint."

Yes. And yes, that's the way to go.

In my experience, when people of differing backgrounds try to read between the
lines, you will get more damage than when things are simply not said. Absence
of information leaves you somewhat open minded. Wrongly interpreted
information often leads to bad decisions and fruitless battles.

If you've been the person that lots of people attribute stuff to because they
read things between your words that simply did not exist, you'll know what I'm
talking about.

>The problem is that there are many things people want to communicate but
would rather not say because they're likely to lead to uncomfortable
situations.

Completely agree. That's why the standard communication trainings/books focus
heavily on making it safe enough for the other person to speak. There's no
good alternative to that.

>Suppose a coworker offers you mints or gum every time you speak to them. If
you only take their words literally, you'll think, "Gee, what a generous
person," and miss entirely their true meaning: "Your breath stinks and it's
bothering me but I don't want to hurt your feelings, so I'm giving you out
where we can both pretend you fixed the problem before anyone noticed."

Sorry - I completely read the first half of the scenario and came to a
different conclusion. As will many others.

I'm going to say what one book on communications essentially said: Utilizing
tact is a poor fix to poor communications. People use tact because they do not
know how to communicate well.

------
_zskd
I've responded to this sort if inquiry before, so forgive the copy-pasta:

>> You sound like you have anxiety problems. What have you done to address
your anti-social tendencies? Are you going to a therapist? Do you expect a
fairy to fly into your house and magic them away? What job do you think exists
where you don't need these skills?

>> Having a therapist does not mean you are crazy, and you don't NEED to be
crazy to have one. It means you have having a neutral person who helps you
track and set goals, track your moods, and help you process work relationships
and events. Michael Jordan has a coach, brain workers have therapists. (
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18277170](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18277170)
)

One thing I want to make clear is that this is not going to go away without
actual effort and planning on your part.

I would recommend going to a therapist and having them help you process your
social interactions and set goals for improving yourself. Which, overall, is
what a therapist does. Way more than the cliche "Now let's talk about your
father..."

A lot of good information in here, as well. Read some books, it's good for
you! It makes you smarter! People have taken time to write them for the last
thousand years for a reason!

You can spare the time away from social media to read a book, I promise. And
the sense of achievement you get from finishing a book feels great.

\- "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a must-read.

\- "Getting to Yes" is another excellent book about workplace conflict
resolution.

\- There are a ton of books about emotional intelligence. Find one that sounds
interesting to you and read it.

I'll also recommend "Deep Work" and "Smarter, Faster, Better" for more general
workplace productivity management, but feel free to sleep on those if you feel
like it.

~~~
naeemtee
> "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a must-read

I'm sorry - this advice, and most of your comment, is bad advice.

I struggled with social anxiety for 10 or 15 years before I "cured" myself,
and advice like this is what buried me. Reading books and going to a therapist
can supplement your efforts, but if that's your main approach you're going to
waste years - and when you talk, you're going to sound like a robot attempting
to be human.

Which, believe me, is much worse than your (OP) presumably current state of
looking like an awkward mute.

HTWFAIP is like the "cold showers" of social anxiety advice. I'm confident
most people who recommend this book (which is literally everyone) haven't
actually read it. It's popular advice because it's popular advice, not because
it's actually useful.

Dale Carnegie's books were meant for everyday corporate workers to advance
their workplace and sales communication skills - not for socially awkward
developers who lack base social cues. Not only that, it was in a time with
completely different social nuances - unless you really want to be an idiot
carrying around a notebook of everyone's birthdays and asking questions 80% of
the time your mouth opens.

Social anxiety isn't cured by reading books on emotional intelligence and deep
diving into the way you say things. Most self-professed "introverts",
particularly developers, spent most of their lives playing video games and
sitting indoors. They're not well-rounded people in the least.

When you start slowly morphing your life to be more well rounded - taking part
in group activities, getting hobbies, physical activity, etc. the social stuff
takes care of itself. Your goal shouldn't be to excel at small talk - your
goal should be to get to the point where your life is so cool you don't give a
crap how you interact socially.

Burying your head in books and overanalyzing your social interactions isn't
going to solve your social anxiety. Go play soccer.

~~~
mediocrejoker
Maybe you could write more than three words about your experience and what
positive suggestions you have for OP (ie. not "here's what bad advice" and
instead "here is some good advice")

Was soccer really the thing that helped you?

~~~
aero142
I agree with your criticism, but I'm going to add that I think the parent is
correct. The thing that helped me the most was joining rec sports, meeting
people through that, and socializing a lot. This took years, but I eventually
got better at interacting with people. I think the best plan is to find a
hobby that involves other people and do it a lot. Invest in learning skills
like listening to people, telling stories well, playing party games and joking
around with people. The biggest thing it that it takes years. Managing social
anxiety is easier when you are better at socializing. That way you get anxious
but then realize you know what to do and can push through from repetition.
Just like public speaking and stage fright.

------
sopooneo
I absolutely sympathise and struggled with this myself to some extent. One
thing that has worked for me is one-by-one adopting _particular_ tactics that
I see socially successful people using. And I mean I consciously note and
incorporate them individually into my interactions. Eventually they get almost
automatic. That may sound crazy and that it would look contrived. But I have
never been called on it, no one has ever accused me of imitating another, and
as far as I can tell it has been strictly beneficial. Of course, the tactics
that work for me might not be the ones that would fit for you. So shop around!
Watch other people and try some on.

Just for some examples of what I've adopted:

(1) When you first enter into a conversation, whether with a single person, or
a group at a meeting, come in with a big smile. And actually, the worse the
situation, the bigger the smile should be. I got that from my boss's boss.
Likely does no apply at funerals.

(2) When listening to someone explain something, when they pause, repeat the
last few words they said and nod. Like if they say, "We can't add more labor
to the Jennings account, because that would pull from the Labowski project and
THAT just can't happen!". You (nodding understandingly): "can't happen."

(3) When talking to non-technical people, never say the word "no". Get the
idea across, and be just as clear as needed that something is not possible,
but do not actually use that ego bruising two-letter word. This grates like
hell against my technical mind that prefers clarity and actual reality. But
I've found "no" sets business people off like startled chickens.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
_But I 've found "no" sets business people off like startled chickens._

Maybe because they have a more holistic view of the purpose that you’re all
there for.

As a developer, your job isn’t to say yes or no. It’s to understand the
problem and solve it. If no solution is available within the constraints laid
out, your job is not to deliver the bad news like a robot. It’s to understand
the priority of the constraints and figure out which one(s) to break so you
can _solve the problem_.

Not picking on you, but many developers lose sight of the purpose of what they
do. No business wants or needs any code or developers to write and maintain
it. It’s a means to an end, and a flat “no” betrays an inversion of priorities
in the developer’s mind.

I write all this as a self-employee developer by the way. It’s one reason I
make a lot more than my peers who could code circles around me.

~~~
logfromblammo
Whenever you want to say, "no", just substitute "it will cost more to do it
that way, because....<endless technobabble>"

You will get interrupted somewhere in your explanation. When asked for a less
costly alternative, pitch anything you would be interested in doing, and make
that explanation more opaque to outsiders than the original technobabble. They
don't really care to hear what you have to say; they just need to know that
there is a technical cover (that only the tech employees can really
understand) for choosing the status quo.

Nothing sells quite like an excuse to never change.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
I've spent my career dealing with non-technical decision makers, so I
understand where you're coming from, but this kind of cynicism and
condescension is exactly what I'm talking about.

~~~
logfromblammo
If you are being asked yes or no questions, the decision has already been
reached. Politically, it is best to figure out what the decision is and then
support it by whatever argument or rhetoric that seems plausible.

If the question is "can you do X?" then the important part of the
conversation, defining what X is, has already taken place. You're just there
to support the decision that has already been made. Sometimes your job as an
employee is telling the boss what all their options are, and sometimes it is
telling the boss that what they are already doing is correct.

If you are your own boss, you are necessarily one step removed from the
politics. You can do your customer relationship management directly. Customers
that ask "Can you do X?" without first asking "Can you help us decide what X
should be for us?" can be refused, or quoted a higher price. Self-employed
contracting is in some ways a wholesale rejection of politics, rather than
learning how to play better. your main concern is "How do I pay my bills?"
rather than "How do I avoid getting fired, and possibly get promoted?" As long
as you have enough paying customers, you can more safely uphold your
professional ethics.

Politics isn't about doing the right thing. It's about picking the least-wrong
thing from a restricted list of bad options.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Not an accurate representation of the type of consulting I do.

------
smilesnd
Personally how I got over my social anxiety and awkwardness was by powering
through. Realizing the things I thought I handled horrible didn't even blimp
on peoples radar during or social interaction. Just being me was more then
enough, and to stop trying to be the person people liked (not in a popular
way, but in a don't want to make people uncomfortable long story). I would
suggest you find one person and go out of your way every day to make small
talk even if it is just seeing how there day is going. Once you get
comfortable with that you be surprise how easy it is to approach others, and
expand your social circle.

Also a side note even the most social person can be really antisocial. At one
contract I had we had one guy lets call Joe that was the social butterfly
would setup after work gatherings for the team and everyone seem to like. One
day at lunch one of our co-workers was going through some bad stuff with his
family, and Joe was pressing a joke on him that was getting him so upset that
I had to hold back the co-worker from beating Joe. After lunch when I got Joe
by himself I try to explain the situation, and why the joke wasn't consider
funny and such in case it was just going over his head and he didn't realize
what he was doing. Come to find out Joe understood, and did it on purposes.
Joe actually disliked everyone on the team, and his way of blowing off steam
was basically picking really random fights. You wouldn't think it from looking
on the outside, but after learning that I start realizing all sorts of things.

Be polite, be considerate, don't take anything personal, don't over think it,
and be yourself. I know easier said then done, but you got to go at it if you
want change.

~~~
arethuza
"Personally how I got over my social anxiety and awkwardness was by powering
through."

I think these are areas that definitely get a _lot_ easier with age.

~~~
tracker1
It may be difficult, but it's often the right approach. Difficult things are
often the right thing when it comes to social interaction and dealing with
other people. Nobody likes it, and unless you're a Narcissist or similar, it
is never completely easy. It tends to take work and practice.

For me, the path out was making myself speak publicly.

------
zengid
1\. Politely greet the people you pass by in the halls.

2\. Practice small talk:

-Ask others about their lives and thoughts and work.

-Listen.

Try to have at least one such interaction per day. This will be really hard at
first, but it gets easier.

Politics is mostly leveraging relationships. You grow them with care and a
little attention over a long time.

Here's a secret. Most people are uncomfortable talking to others. You're not
alone. But once you make friends with others, interactions will be more
enjoyable!

Good luck!

~~~
cbanek
This is great advice. They say the way to become friends is to slowly share
more details about yourself, and learn them about someone else, and be
interested in both.

The only thing I should add is try and REMEMBER what they told you. If you ask
the same question again and again, they will know you aren't really listening,
which is almost worse than not interacting.

------
himynameisdom
I was in your boat not too long ago (honestly, I'm still there but it's become
better), and I realized a simple, yet effective way to interact with people
without having to a.) talk as much and b.) put your opinions out there for a
possible anxiety-inducing interaction.

It really came down to asking good questions. This allows people to help
clarify themselves to you without you having to talk too much. It also builds
your listening skills, which is probably one of the more important
interpersonal skills you can attain. If you ask good questions, people will
seek you out. Win-win for your interpersonal and professional goals.

As for resources, I recommend A More Beautiful Question: The Power of Inquiry
to Spark Breakthrough Idea. It's a great book with actionable items to help
you ask people questions they don't normally hear, which will help people not
only understand you better, but help you understand them better. In the end I
wouldn't be surprised if this book helps you help other people flesh out their
ideas, desires and needs.

------
jimmy1
Disclaimer: This is my own personal advice. It is different from what has been
commented so far, but hope it might offer a different perspective or angle.

Don't believe your labels, even one's you give yourself. Why do you think you
are introverted? Is it because you took some Carl Jungean-esque test like the
Myers Briggs and it said you were? Is it because your parents and teachers
always said you were "shy"? Is it because you have anxiety disorder or
depression? You mentioned this last one might be it but aren't sure -- if you
have a hunch, go talk to minimally a therapist to find out.

Toss all that shit out the window. You aren't your labels. You are exactly who
you want to be.

If you don't want to be introverted anymore, don't be. As some one who was the
"shy" kid and introverted from basically age 4 to 19, mainly staying inside
and playing video games, it would probably shock most people to tell them that
I consistently score "INTP" \-- who cares. Take a pragmatic approach to it. If
even the thought of being conversive, over communicating, and going to events
exhausts you, that's not introversion that's probably some disorder -- you
mentioned social anxiety, for me it was depression -- we are human and we were
meant to communicate, be social, and relate to others. I am not saying that to
say "so you are wrong" I am saying that so you understand. If there's
something deep down there that is the root of that, address it. For me, going
to therapy helped. For others -- the root of the social anxiety is a troubled
pass: an abusive relationship, a missing father or mother, or a relationship
that desperately needs mending. We put up our walls and think these things
aren't affecting us, but they do. A lot of people think therapy is for people
who have things "wrong" with them. I think therapy could help every single
person on this earth, no shame in it at all.

The last advice -- treat it like a challenge. Have fun with it. Hack at it.
Try different things. Read. A lot. Listen to your body. Best of luck on your
quest!

~~~
codebolt
Co-signing this advice. I was basically in the same shoes as the OP, being the
quiet office weirdo for my first few years, usually getting very tense in
meetings and so on. These days I'm effortlessly starting discussions, speaking
my mind openly in meetings, etc, and have never had it better professionally
or socially, at work or otherwise. I won't try to distill my personal
transformation into a step-by-step recipe for others to repeat, but at least
know that with persistent effort, change is possible.

~~~
Namrog84
Also there are 2 sets of definitions I believe of introvert and extrovert. The
traditional and the clinical one. I am not sure those are the right labels for
the 2 interpretations.

And I think me and the 2 I've replying to all agree with the latter one. Which
is independent of shyness or outgoingness. It's purely a mental recharge thing
really. Do you feel like you need to be alone after a long time of being with
other people.

This is different from the traditional view which is correlated with shyness
vs outgoing charismatic view.

Also no one is ever just 1 or the other. But can be all of the above at
various points at varying and ever changing degree.

------
Alex63
What an interesting question. Kudos to you for your self-awareness and being
willing to tackle this. There's a lot of good advice in the comments (and a
couple of clunkers).

I found it interesting that you phrased your interest as "learn workplace
politics." From what you describe, it sounds more like this is more an issue
of communications and process. I work in the consulting industry, where
communications and process are often both critical to successful outcomes.

When I was starting out, I found Gerry Weinberg's books _Becoming a Technical
Leader_ , _Secrets of Consulting_ , and _The Psychology of Computer
Programming_ to be very interesting and helpful. In fact, in one of them (I
think it's _Becoming a Technical Leader_ ), Weinberg talks about how an
"introvert" may actually turn out to be the more effective technical leader
because they focus on solving problems instead of talking about them.

Weinberg also talks about not saying "no" (suggested in another comment), and
this is something I've found to be very valuable in consulting. Rather than
just telling someone their request can't be done, or accepting it mutely, tell
them how much it will cost to do it (Weinberg explains this as the "Orange
Juice Test" in _Secrets of Consulting_ ).

I do agree with the comment about using wireframes to confirm your
understanding/spec with your users. There are other techniques that can also
work (e.g., creating user stories with your stakeholders), but the common
element is that you must communicate clearly, concisely, and cooperatively
with others.

Sorry this comment is a little scattershot, but best of luck with your
efforts.

------
ra07312006
Been in your situation for some years.

My anxiety was a drain on my productivity and happiness. In the end, success
mean't understanding it thoroughly.

Limiting human interactions is great for the company's productivity and
terrible for your own personal and emotional growth.

Some of the personal strategies that helped me: \- Going on a technology cliff
for a while, really trying hard to adopt a non-IT/non-code mindset. \-
Separation of work and life \- Understanding the people we work with and why
we don't all get along. \- Your interests will change over the years. What is
cool to code-up today may well bore you at a later date. \- Physical exercise,
this did wonders. Get to the gym, lift weights, get out and run.

Some resources I kept coming back to: \- 16personalities.com or any lengthy
MBTI explanations. \- Podcasts on people and culture. E.g: This American Life
from NPR is a well known one. \- Books, movies, plays and podcasts that I
initially labeled as 'boring' and uninteresting. This was discovered from all
the people I did not vibe with.

Good luck OP. You can do it!

------
tj-teej
I would encourage you to find a mentor who understands you. You'll be
pleasantly surprised at how many engineers identify with the story you told.

I think it's harder to "pick-up" the skills by reading generic, broad advice
in the form of blogs, books, and more effective to find a person you can
trust, who can give you advice on how to handle real situations you're going
through.

You'll be happier/more effective in the short term (as the mentor will guide
you through these interactions), and you'll see the patterns of how to deal
with these situations over the long term (picking up the skills).

You'll pick up the skills faster than you think! Good luck! :)

~~~
meesterdude
To that, this is a service I offer: improving the socialbility and softskills
of developers and teams.

There's some decent advice in this thread. And no matter what you do it'll
take work and change. But if anyone wants to improve on their softskills, i'd
be happy to work with you! r.softskilldevs@ruru.name

------
blihp
There has been some good advice on how you can work on your social skills but
that's only part of your problem. The other part of your problem is the type
of customer you're dealing with. Sales/marketing folks are often highly non-
linear thinkers who live and die by their soft skills. So you are probably
going to find that how they feel about you is going to dominate your
relationship and status with them more than any actual results. In most
sales/marketing environments I've seen you can pretty much toss things like
logic, formal processes and written specs out the window. The mental space
they live in and environment they operate in is very different than say
finance or engineering which tends to be at the other end of the spectrum.

Something to seriously consider is trying to get out of that environment...
it's not for everyone. You don't necessarily need to leave the company, but
rather as you develop your social skills try to start building relationships
in other departments and use them to find a path out. Politics are everywhere
but the degree to which politics drive things can vary considerably from
department to department and is often less dominant in less 'squishy' parts of
the business.

------
zer00eyz
There is a lot to unpack here.

Honestly you have a work problem that is less personal and more process (or
lack there of).

The key to cracking the poor specs is to return specs to the people making the
requests. Learn to do quick and dirty Wireframes and storyboards. It is faster
to draw a bunch of boxes and say "If I build this, is it going to do what you
want". The first few times you wireframe it is going to take you a LONG time
to get a product out - but if you do them for EVERYTHING your quickly going to
get fast at the process. There are tons of tools to help you with this process
so dont be shy about finding one that works for you and dont be afraid to go
to pen and paper.

When your giving these to someone to walk through PRINT THEM OUT - people take
paper an order of magnitude more seriously than an email attachment.

As for your anxiety - take public speaking - learn to give speeches, learn to
tell a story that holds attention. It is a skill and you have to master it
like every other one. You might not ever get to the point of being comfortable
but you might be more willing to endure that discomfort if you know that you
can be effective.

------
jupiter90000
Take it or leave it: I'd say learn more about yourself, how the "extroverted
is good, introverted is bad" culture came about, and how to work with your
strengths. One book I'd recommend if you want to start exploring this more is
"Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet:_The_Power_of_Introverts...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet:_The_Power_of_Introverts_in_a_World_That_Can%27t_Stop_Talking)

------
jppope
Lots of good advice below but given your background you might want to consider
approaching it like a project. Set reasonable objectives and goals, track
progress, hold yourself accountable, and build on previous skills that you
have acquired.

Some other thoughts: \- It's super important that you know that the concept of
introvert/extrovert is pseudo science, same for "left-brained" / "right-
brained"(Ex. [https://www.inc.com/joshua-spodek/there-are-no-such-
things-a...](https://www.inc.com/joshua-spodek/there-are-no-such-things-as-
introversion-or-extroversion.html).

\- Don't be ashamed of building yourself scripts, or practicing small talk
techniques by yourself. It feels awkward at first but really helps to have
something to fall back to when you need a plan

\- Don't assume that social skills are natural, or innate. Groups like
toastmasters exist because things like public speaking are difficult to
master.

~~~
hyperpape
"Some other thoughts: - It's super important that you know that the concept of
introvert/extrovert is pseudo science, same for "left-brained" / "right-
brained"(Ex. [https://www.inc.com/joshua-spodek/there-are-no-such-
things-a...](https://www.inc.com/joshua-spodek/there-are-no-such-
things-a....")

The article does not offer any citations, and does not discuss the history of
the concepts of introversion and extroversion. Even the most basic search
reveals that the concept of extraversion is one of the factors of the Big Five
personality model, the most influential model of personality that psychology
has
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits)).
There are literally thousands of studies that have used this model.

------
Sameron
Sounds like your problem is more with taking action than having the right
knowledge or intuition. Having worked in consulting a bit, you come to
understand effective communication is something you just have to do, it's what
you're selling. If you had a feeling the "spec" wasn't quite accurate and
still set out on just following it - guess what? You messed up. Someone else
wouldn't and that makes them better.

You can be an introvert, you might be shy, awkward, whatever. But do you want
to do a good job or not? They aren't mutually exclusive.

When all you need to do is say something or ask questions - it doesn't matter
if you're a smooth talker or a total mess. What matters is doing it.

------
petersonh
I was in the same boat a few years ago, did this class in improv at Second
City specially chartered to socially anxious people and it was one of the best
decisions I've ever made:

[https://trainingcentre.secondcity.com/s/sc-class-
category/a2...](https://trainingcentre.secondcity.com/s/sc-class-
category/a2g1H000000XvyKQAS/improv-for-anxiety)

Hopefully they have it in your city, or a similar resource, what was nice was
that everyone was there for the same reason. The first class was very
difficult, but it became easier and a lot of fun by the end. Hope that helps!

------
monksy
A few things:

1\. No one considers you "that odd guy"

2\. No one is that worried that you don't hang out at work place events

Your manager and coworkers should see that you get stuff done. For the most
part, people don't care that much to evaluate you for being the odd guy or how
social you are. People will judge you if your outward behavior are standard
deviations off or if you're difficult to work with.

\---

Your interaction with the marketing team shows that you need to learn some
confidence about speaking up on things that aren't very clear. It's going to
take practice to fix that. Escalate higher up to get guidence on that.

------
tyingq
If you like the approach of just diving into the deep end: Toastmasters.
[https://www.toastmasters.org](https://www.toastmasters.org)

------
tekkk
My dear boy, kjullien. I wish I was at your work place to help you but alas, I
am not so this short message will have to suffice.

There is a lot of different parts for improving your social skills. Just
getting out and talking to more people is probably a good way to start. But
you probably want specific instructions? :) If your anxiety stems from some
insecurities that you can help to reduce that would be a good idea to do.
Starting going to the gym was really life-changing for me. Again, I wish I was
there to show you how easy it actually is once you get past the initial
discomfort.

But social skills, yes. Having a great group of friends whom you can talk to
in regular basis I think is an excellent way of keeping those skills sharp.
However, if you find yourself lacking on that part and have been for a long
time then it's kinda difficult to start. What I recommend then instead is
starting a hobby in which you can practise them. I have myself enjoyed
improvisational theatre immensely! Hopefully you can find a group that is
beginner friendly _and_ you can get over your performing shyness (I am still
not there and I have been doing it for two months).

Anyway, probably any hobby that requires high amount of social interaction is
good. Impro, I think, forces you to build up that wit and social finesse which
helps a lot with any basic interactions. Building up social skills __will
__take time so don 't give up when you feel that it's no working. Reading up a
book or two won't help you I'm sorry to say, you have to get out and do it -
whatever form it might be. It's doable, the only limit will be how far _you_
are willing to go.

------
S_Bear
I was awkward and weird when I started out, but took some steps to get better.
Here's what worked for me, YMMV:

1) Work retail: If you can, get a 2-4 hr a week PT retail gig, working
register. Nothing forces you to get better at micro-conversations than having
20-30 short term disposable interactions.

2) Semi-follow your local sports teams. I don't watch baseball or football,
but I always know how the Twins and Vikings are doing. If I' talking to
someone who's really into it, I just nod along and agree with whatever point
they're making about free agency, starting rotations, etc. Earns me a lot of
goodwill with no actual effort on my part.

3) Know people's names and have canned responses ready. Salespeople thrive on
this. Whenever I see people I acknowledge them and we have an exchange. "Hey
Bill! How's life" "Another day in paradise" "At least it's not snowing,
right?" Done. Goodwill up, no extra effort. The point of these conversations
is to establish basic humanity to both sides.

4) Practice: It took a lot of trial and error to get good at small talk. It's
going to be stilted and weird at first, but when it starts clicking it's
awesome.

Bonus: Receptionists, maintenance people, and other 'para-professionals' in
your building are often invisible, hear a lot of office politics, and are
generally fun, down-to-earth people. If you become friendly with them, they
generally keep you informed of office gossip outside of channels that are
actually competing with you. And they're a lot of fun to go to sporting events
with (Shoutout to Tony the Custodian!).

------
thisisit
I was in your place and slowly getting better where people actually say that
they like interacting and talking with me. What really helped?

1\. Meditation and specific one at that called - metta meditation. Most of the
time issues lies with the fact that we as introverts feel unfulfilled and
think something is wrong with us.

But, there is nothing wrong with us. This meditation helps with that and makes
you realize that you are fine as they way you are.

2\. Tiny habits:

One of the biggest problem for me was that I would wake up one day and barrel
ahead trying to be another person. But the problem is you cannot change in a
day. So, you try and try and eventually give up.

Then I read about BJ Fogg's research:
[https://www.tinyhabits.com/](https://www.tinyhabits.com/)

And I took another route to thins. I wake up every day and take one thing and
only one thing I want to do.

Let's say "small talk". Then I think of a person I can try this on. So, I set
an intention to "small talk" once I meet this person. And because I am aware
of this intention I tend to see how they react. Most of the time it's pleasant
surprise which makes me feel good and helps reinforce the habit.

3\. The mandatory book:

[https://www.amazon.com/Charisma-Myth-Science-Personal-
Magnet...](https://www.amazon.com/Charisma-Myth-Science-Personal-
Magnetism/dp/1591845947)

It has lots of techniques. So, take it slow. It can take sometime before you
see the changes.

------
purplezooey
It's just life at tech companies. You can muddle through it as long as there
is a minimum of actively toxic, sabotaging, ruthless political people. At some
places there are too many to make it worth it and you have to find another
job. A good resource is saving up enough money so you can tell a job to bugger
off if you need to.

------
sjg007
1\. Find a therapist who specializes in adult autism and cbt. 2\. One thing
that will help is to develop your small talk. Look people in the eye, ask how
they are and the default option, “any and for the weekend?” If it’s wednesday
or later. If it’s monday or tuesday and the first time you interact, ask how
was your weekend? Be prepared to give answers yourself that are more then 1
word and allow some basic questioning and responses. That’s all you need to do
to get started. You can literally script it out to start and over time it will
get easier. The trick about being an effective communicator is actually to
just actively listen.

There are some self help books on CBT too that will help. Find some written by
academics from reputable schools.

~~~
sjg007
Another thing you can do is practice this with family and friends, your local
barista and everywhere else. Think of it as being this opportunity to have a
unique relationship with every person you meet.

------
Myrmornis
What a lot of people do is, instead of giving their own opinion, assess what
the most respected people are likely to say, and try to say it before they do.
Viewed solely on its performance rather than on its intrinsic worthiness, it's
probably a good strategy.

------
makerleader
I am currently developing a program/course to deal exactly with this issue
(15+ years as a team lead/manager/director, started in systems admin and
development). I want to take a few students one on one through the course.
Feel free to email me: students@makerleader.com.

I was going to wait a few weeks, until I had more content ready, but might as
well start now.

If anyone else is running into something similar, shoot me a note, we can get
a 5-6 person study group together and I'd happy to provide some generic
basics, and do a deeper dive into the specific issues you may be having (free
of charge obviously, hopefully in exchange for some feedback).

~~~
arethuza
I had some 1 on 1 leadership training years back and it was actually very
effective - what was particularly horrific (from my perspective) was when I
was videoed in one-on-one meetings with senior team leaders.

Definitely think that training helped me a lot and one small thing I still
remember to do all the time is to always ask "What do you think?" when
discussing things with people!

------
thepp1983
Firstly Be above the politics. Do your job and just be yourself and be nice
and polite to your work mates.

You lack communication.

When you get a crap spec like the ones you have obviously got. You should
reject it with the exact reasons why the spec was insufficient.

Tell them politely and clearly what is insufficient about it. If you have a
direct superior approach them first with your concerns about each spec and get
them to help you to setup a meeting where you hash out the specifics.

There is no magical answer to getting this right. You just need to learn when
to be assertive and just be clear, concise, logical and polite and ask for
clarification if something is unclear.

It works wonders.

------
ravenstine
I'm going to provide some contrary thoughts.

1\. Your superiors should be shielding you from workplace politics. Developers
and engineers shouldn't be subject to most of it. If your work is miring you
in politics, get out ASAP. You should always be looking for the next gig, and
this is one reason why. This isn't happening to you because you are
introverted; it's because your workplace isn't as nice as you deserve.

2\. Don't feel bad for being that "odd" guy. Chances are people aren't
thinking of you that way as often as you think. One way you can remedy this,
however, is to find at least one workplace friend. You don't have to be
everyone's friend, but finding at least one person on your wavelength helps a
lot. If you don't find this person then, again, find another company to work
for.

3\. You're not going to change the company you currently work for. If you stay
with them, try to maintain a zen-like state while doing unpleasant things like
communicating with other departments. While I'm sure you can work on our
communication skills, it sounds like they are having you work with people who
suck at communicating to engineers. Most of the time, you should be working
through someone who can communicate through both parties and know what they
want, while you focus your time on engineering. If your company doesn't
already do this, it's unlikely that you are going to be able to fix it. Find a
different company that doesn't expect developers to simultaneously act as
project management or liaisons. Sometimes that kind of thing is necessary in
our profession, but if it's constantly driving you up a wall then it's likely
the company's problem, not yours. Not everyone should be expected to be good
at such things, so don't let it get you down.

I keep saying that you should look out for a better position at another
company, which is what you and everyone should do. Why? Not just because there
are companies out there looking for people _like you_ , but if your current
company wants a developer to deal with that kind of bullshit(yes i know it's
subjective), then you can help them by freeing up that position for some other
developer who will take it with a smile.

------
motohagiography
Probably the two most important works on the topic in 30 years:

[https://www.amazon.ca/Power-Some-People-Have-
Others/dp/00617...](https://www.amazon.ca/Power-Some-People-Have-
Others/dp/0061789089)

[https://www.amazon.ca/Getting-Yes-Negotiating-Agreement-
With...](https://www.amazon.ca/Getting-Yes-Negotiating-Agreement-
Without/dp/0143118757/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1542736851&sr=1-1&keywords=getting+to+yes)

------
grawprog
I'm sorry I can't remember the exact title but i read a book on non-verbal
communication a while back that was really helpful for learning to read body
language and helping me adjust my own body language to come across as more
friendly. It's really surprising how much just changing your posture and
paying attention to your facial expressions really helps with talking to
people. It also helps you pick up on their emotinal state whether they're
nervous or anything. Any book that teaches those concepts should help.

Also, not really a resource but something a friend of mine told me years ago
that always stuck with me and really helped me with the way I am around
people. She told me being shy and introverted isn't much different than being
arrogant. It means you're more concerned about the way your words or actions
will be perceived by other people instead of actually paying attention to
other people. Most people, even extroverted people, get nervous talking to
people, especially strangers. The way I see it other people are just as
nervous talking to me so it is kinda selfish to sit there and be introverted
and make other people reach out to me or talk to me. I've tried to keep this
inind over the years when I meet or talk to people and it's helped. Even if
i'm uncomfortable in a situation just understanding that whoever i'm talking
to probably is also and it helps me relax and usually being relaxed helps the
other person relax and where I used to have a lot of awkward conversations
with people I find they flow more naturally now the less I worry.

------
kyle_martin1
Resources:

1\. The Ask A Manager Podcast and the audiobook on Audible.

2\. Take a co-leadership course or read their book
[http://coleadership.com](http://coleadership.com)

------
mrdoops
Lift some weights. It might seem unrelated, but it's very crucial to improving
your ability to deal with anxiety of all kinds. If you don't have experience
around weight training equipment, then pay for small group training. Not only
will you get a low-stakes opportunity to practice socializing, but the weight
training will improve your testosterone production and your ability to
regulate anxiety.

I should've done small group training years ago. Such a good investment.

~~~
WhompingWindows
How does lifting weights teach OP about office politics? Seems tangentially
related at best...

~~~
creep
Going to the gym is daunting for a person with social anxiety and/or autism.

It's often loud, crowded, and besides that it's filled with complicated
machines you have to learn about before using.

When I walk into a gym my brainstem screams: "fucking RUN".

Pushing yourself to exercise in front of people who seem more powerful and
more confident than you is a good way to gtfo of your comfort zone-- and it's
a low-risk way to do so. Because while it seems like a big deal to potentially
make a fool out of yourself at the gym, it's not and nobody actually cares
about the skinny guy in the corner fumbling around with the leg press, and
most of those people you will never see again. The people you do see again
have an essential but implicit bond to you: you're all trying to improve your
physicality. Everyone there was once a beginner. Zero risk.

You can translate any confidence gained at the gym to the workplace. It shows
up in the way you walk and the way you carry yourself in general, and you
become less fearful of situations that look, at first, to be very high risk.

------
jkingsbery
A few things come to mind:

1\. I agree with the others who said it's a thing you need to practice. While
talking to people can be stressful, talking to people about things you're
interested in is much less stressful. Find something in common and talk about
that.

The connection doesn't need to be done entirely in person. For example, if you
and your coworker share an interest in some area (space flight; unit testing;
a particular video game; etc.), and you come across an interesting article,
write a quick note to that person saying "Hey, saw this, thought you might
find it interesting. I like how..." Then when you see that person, there's a
good chance they'll say "thanks for sending me the article on Topic X that we
both enjoy!" and a relatively low-stress conversation will follow.

2\. On the other hand, it helps to set limits. If the sales people you work
with tend to be more challenging, see if you can involve your boss, a product
manager, or someone like that as a filter. Set-up time on your calendar
blocking off meetings. Meet people half way, certainly, but also make it clear
what you need to be successful.

------
conductr
I wish you luck but here are some things to keep in mind that you can do if
you find yourself not into the therapist/self help stuff for whatever reason.

You can get better at knowing what they need vs what they ask for and push
back in the form of raising concerns. Realize this is brainstorming and
email/slack suck at this. Get in a room and draw what you’re going to build.
Tell them why ask x won’t be useful/won’t work. Lastly, encourage a project
manager type person to get involved even if informally. Your boss might be a
good person for this if you have no one else. They can do the back and forth
and some of what I said previously if you can’t. Also have some sort of
project committee so only approved projects get your attention. Lastly, charge
your cost to their budget. They won’t waste your time for long when it cost
them a bonus assuming your company is setup that way. Get the finance guys
involved. If there’s a culture of wasting time/resources they can help come up
with a plan and they may own many of these ideas.

A lot of this assumes you’re at a bigger corporate company so YMMV.

------
onemoresoop
Is there a chance that your introversion is caused by not feeling comfortable
around a certain type of people? Are you always introverted even with a close
group of friends? Chances are that you're not compatible with a certain type
of people but there are ways to overcome that. First try to understand where
all this is coming from, do a lot of introspection, see a professional if you
can. Take a personality test and read about it. However inaccurate the MBTI
is, I found that it helped me a lot. Second, I found that my voice was a bad
feedback loop, I'd attempt to weakly say something and people would not even
hear me and that would make me close within myself even more and when I had
the chance to say something I would avoid it based on pervious experience.
Eventually I had become comfortable in my unconfortable silence. This can be
unlearned and should be unlearned at all costs, it will save your sanity later
on. Learning to project my voice has helped me quite a bit. Also being
prepared helped me as well.

------
mattyfo
Have you considered therapy? It sounds like you need some self-reflection
skills and a therapist could help you develop those skills.

------
jeremybeckham
My recommendation is to go to your team lead/manager and tell them what you
wrote in the first two paragraphs. Ask them for help in developing those
skills.

My experience has been that learning office politics is more about having a
trusted mentor that is good at doing this. You are looking for a mentor that
would bring you to meetings and into conversations where you can observe what
they do, what the other people do, and take notes. Have a debriefing session
afterwards to discuss why you believe each person behaved or said the things
they did. What you will gain by this is experience in looking at interactions
from multiple viewpoints.

Once you can start predicting those reactions by anticipating other people's
viewpoints, then social interaction becomes much easier. You aren't caught off
guard nearly as much, and the level of anxiety goes down significantly.

~~~
twoquestions
That sounds like a wonderful way to get backstabbed, and suddenly be the one
responsible for all the company's failures before you're fired.

------
dangrover
Aside from Dale Carnegie, I found "Stealing the Corner Office" very useful
(despite the cornball title).

------
rm_-rf_slash
Workplace.stackexchange.com is a good Q/A resource for office conflict and
other kinds of workplace issues.

------
tonymet
Lots of good advice, so I'll attack it from a different angle.

In my experience step 0 is to acknowledge that these personality traits are
not essential parts of your identity. We all go through periods where we are
more or less introverted.

That doesn't mean change is easy, but it's an important foundation for making
the change.

After that I would focus on practice above all else. I would seek out social
activities ( hiking groups, maker groups, charity groups, etc) where you can
casually be social. Try to take on leadership roles (e.g. organizing meetups,
taking minutes, recruitment, etc).

There's tons of great advice, but much like learning a language, the best way
to learn the "social language" is by doing.

Getting this experience out of the office first is a risk-free way to build
your social strengths.

Really great topic thanks for bringing it up.

------
oerb
Best Video Blog on how to live a good live, and I think is your real question,
is Philosphers Notes from Brian Johnson:
[https://www.youtube.com/user/PhilosophersNotes](https://www.youtube.com/user/PhilosophersNotes)

And the simple and best Book to Live with your special Guys in the Company is
"Assertivenes at Work" from Kate Back: [https://www.amazon.com/Assertiveness-
Work-Professional-Busin...](https://www.amazon.com/Assertiveness-Work-
Professional-Business-Management/dp/0077114280/)

At the End I take a buddhism trail and got rid of this Feelings blowing my
emotions to this bad shapes you discribes. Begin with simple Meditation by
Youtube lessons.

Live long and prosper Oerb

------
gigatexal
Read this: (warning it’s bleak) [https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-
gervais-principle-...](https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-
principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/)

------
chickenfries
This show is pretty good, but take it all with a grain of salt and recognize
that the experience of the two hosts is not representative of all engineering
jobs. Still lots of good advice though:

[https://softskills.audio/](https://softskills.audio/)

------
jasonlotito
1\. Being introverted has nothing to do with having autism or social anxiety.
If you honestly think this is the case, seek out a doctor, otherwise you are
just mocking those with an actual condition. Seek real help and stop using
this as an excuse.

2\. The issue you are having isn't workplace politics. It's because as a
developer, you have a responsibility to solve problems.

> what I implemented, which was what they asked, was not what they wanted"

That's your responsibility to speak up and help them solve problems. A
developer who only does what people ask him to do will never get far. They are
the literal code monkey. If you want to be successful, you need to work with
people to help solve their problems. This means understanding why they are
asking for things.

3\. Honestly, it needs to start with you.

> I ended up being treated like a machine

That's because you probably treat them like machines.

> I love technology and code, less so humans. A lot less.

That's pretty insulting, and people are quick to pick up on how you treat
them, and treat you like that in return.

The best thing you can do for yourself is assume that everyone else is
honestly trying to do the best job they can, and honestly try to help them
succeed at that job. Most people are like this. You'll have people lie to you
and tell you to treat people poorly or assume bad things about people, but
those are just dicks. Most people just want to do their job, do it well, and
get home. Help them do this. Respect them as people who are just as valuable
as you. But if your attitude comes off as not caring about their needs and
only wanting to get back to he code, well, you aren't really doing your part.

Help others achieve success. That's what a lot of these books will tell you.

Anyways, really, what I wanted to say was to seek out a professional if you
think you have a condition, or stop using it as an excuse. It's insulting at
best.

------
watwut
I would suggest to read up on requirements gathering, analysis and maybe
negotiation. One thing is small talk and socialization - but your problems
with marketing and sales are not that. The issue is not that you don't have
good enough small talk. It is that you don't know what you are expected to do.
That is literally requirements gathering.

Reading up on that should you allow to formalise process of communication a
bit more. That in turn helps even to highly social people. It should help you
even more.

Lastly, guys "that you simply give tasks to, and ultimately the job gets done"
are awesome to work with, even if they don't chat much. Really. Have collegues
like that and they are great to be in office or team with.

------
dominotw
One common trait that makes introverts introverts is that we all are driven by
the relentless desire to be thought of as a good guy, to live up to the image
that others have built about us, to live up to the image that you have built
about yourself.

Hard to tell why only some ppl 'suffer' from this. Maybe years of praise by
parents/school teachers that you are some sort of 'good guy' and you yourself
start believing that be to true at some point.

You could do a million things to overcome it but all of those would work
shortterm and you would revert straight back to your introvert self as long as
you have desire to be thought of as a good guy. Only sustainable "solution" to
this problem is solve this issue.

------
arduinomancer
1) Apply your normal engineering problem solving skills. This can be solved
like any other problem. Say you’re bad at a certain type of math problem what
do you do? Practice and apply trial and error. What’s your strategy? What
worked and what didn’t?

2) You need to brute force it. You probably have a tendency to avoid social
situations instinctively or anything that might lead to a social interaction.
Stop doing this. Whenever a possibility of social interaction arises, force
yourself to do it. Even if it’s painful just look at it as training.

3) If you brute force it long enough eventually you end up loosening up and
becoming a more fluid, relaxed, and confident person.

------
tracker1
The best way out of it may well be to force yourself when you're
uncomfortable... Give presentations at tech user groups, as an example. It's
uncomfortable, but if you do it a few times, it gets easier. Just make certain
you have time to prepare, practice and leave 1/5 to 1/6 of your time for
questions at the end and/or interruptions for questions.

Avoiding interaction, will only make you less comfortable with them over time,
then the next thing you know, you're well into your senior years and lonely.
The one thing you do want to be aware of is not talking too much in social
situations... ask questions and listen.

------
slededit
In your case I think the solution is pretty clear. Try hanging out more with
your colleagues. If you don’t enjoy it then consider it “work” and part of the
job.

You don’t have to stay the whole time or even talk too much. Just make an
effort to be there which will be noticed and appreciated. It’s ok to leave
early as long as you do so quietly.

The flip side to you not socializing with your colleagues is they consider it
a rejection by you.

These events are supposed to be fun and for you they are not. I get that this
isn’t fair but if you want to solve the problem of not being seen as a machine
you have to try.

------
LusoTycoon
48 laws of power

chapter names already give you some pointers

~~~
jsisto
Yes. This book ^ I look at it as a guide for power to not be used against you.
This book has greatly improved my life.

------
NicoJuicy
You don't need office talk for small talk, try to interact on events and show
an effort ( you can leave early fyi).

The thing you want to address is, when they give you a 2 word spec, talk about
the issue before implementing it. The chance that your interpretation of a 2
word spec == their interpretation = 0.

And yes, just talk about it upfront.

The flow and what's possible, for hard things, try to get a middle ground, so
a 4 week implementation becomes a 3 week implementation.

A 20 minute talk that can reduce 15% of labor is a win-win.

I've reduced a lot of unnecessary labor because of small talk :P

------
malvosenior
Read this immediately: [https://www.ribbonfarm.com/the-gervais-
principle/](https://www.ribbonfarm.com/the-gervais-principle/)

------
oerb
An Idea of How People react to me:

1\. All men are born whith the habit of mirroring. It's the way childs learn.

2\. When people mirroring you, they mirror your inner fealings subconsciously.

3\. When your personal fealings are in a bad shape people see it and do not
want to share them by the automatic mirroring process.

4\. So first at all find ways to get in an inner good mood, find peace and
love in your inner selve and the people will want to mirror you.

PS: That is why smile allone is an bad advice. The inner mood they will mirror
would disface every trained smile technique person.

------
ballenf
The Syntax podcast just did an episode on some strategies for getting along at
work.

[https://syntax.fm](https://syntax.fm)

My one piece of advice is to treat the problem like a really hard programming
challenge -- it's a problem that definitely _is_ solvable by you but will take
a lot of work and learning a lot of new skills. You may never enjoy it or be
the best at it, but you absolutely can do it.

Clearly you're on this path already by asking the question.

------
wizardofmysore
I suggest you read "how to talk to anyone, anytime and anywhere" by Larry
King. It is not a bs self-help book. It is written by an expert in a very
professional way. There are actionable insights in it. I am a senior engineer,
I used to find it hard to make conversation but now it's easy. The main take
away for me is that the easiest way to start a conversation is to make it
about the other person, people love to talk about themselves.

------
drywater
You will never stop being treated as a machine, especially in big corp.

As for the anxiety, stop trying so hard. Your goal is to find people that you
actually like. You can’t really be friends with people that you despise or
have nothing in common with.

Look for what people say or do in common areas as a kitchen or a chat and try
to relate without pushing yourself.

Play the game on your own terms and keep in mind that it’s not really a
competition. You’re trying to have fun.

------
jondubois
It's easy.

\- Lie

\- Cheat

\- Take credit for other people's work.

\- Deflect blame to other people.

\- Make friends with other jerks in the company and collaborate with them to
distort facts in your favor at the expense of value creators within the
company.

\- Once you climb high enough in the hierarchy, start using your 'friends' as
scapegoats for everything that goes wrong; you gotta keep feeding the beast...
Even when the meat gets scarce.

\- While you're doing all this backstabbing, be sure to keep a smile on your
face.

~~~
matz1
To able to utilize these skill without getting into trouble yourself is hard.
I myself have no issue of using these skill, but its not easy. There are lack
of courses or books to teach you this.

~~~
jondubois
Just talk loud, talk a lot, smile a lot, keep complimenting your superiors and
berate your subordinates often; that makes you look tough and your superiors
will love it.

------
qznc
Many techies (myself included) do not like smalltalk. There is no point to it.
An interesting theory about that is "The Psychopath Code" by Pieter Hintjens
[0]: People do it because it makes detecting psychopaths easier. You could try
to turn it into a game. Find the psychopaths at work.

[0]
[http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths](http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths)

------
mindcrash
Been there, done that.

This is not something you can solve and/or fix with a book.

Find a good job coach, whom you trust (VERY IMPORTANT), to talk to and
practice with and then practice, practice, practice in, well, practice.

Also don't expect to "magically" get a lot better at this stuff. It will take
a while. And with "a while" I mean months, not days.

But you really should start with finding a good job coach who you can trust.

Good luck!

------
closeparen
The most basic and familiar form of office politics is a good bug report: it
lays out exactly what the problem is, why it’s important, and proves that
you’re a competent, motivated partner in figuring it out, not just “holding it
wrong.” This is bread and butter of the political task of getting someone
else’s resources allocated to help you.

------
renegadus
Human interaction isn't so hard, you just need to view it as a problem to be
solved, just like everything else.

There are some good YouTube videos that break this stuff down:
[https://www.youtube.com/user/charismaoncommand](https://www.youtube.com/user/charismaoncommand)

------
rc_hadoken
Human Nature -- Robert Greene \--all you need and you will have to accept it
not just Grok it intellectually.

------
onemoresoop
Break your comfort zone. Try taking some improv classes. Once you break the
ice it actually becomes fun.

~~~
onemoresoop
You might also be interested into this comment someone made on a different
post:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18494918](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18494918)

------
mettamage
This is a very tough question. When I was a lot younger I had a similar
question regarding dating. Let me transpose the advice from there what will
likely have some added value for this as well. I have friends who are like
you, I also see what they do (not much). It pains me to see it since I was in
a similar situation once in my life. Now I'm still weird and odd but I'm also
social! :D And people seem to like that.

A couple of tips on finding truth in the social arena:

1\. You have to find the truth by experimenting yourself. Set social
experiments up deliberately and in a controlled environment [1].

2\. Psychologists are mostly wrong due to the replication crisis. I didn't
know this at the time, I've suffered the consequences I'm overfitted to detect
human biases. I found that I know how people work much better than any
psychology book (I did a bachelors in it). I also tested/experimented a lot
more than any psychologist because I don't need to publish papers.

3\. Self help books are about as wrong as psychology text books. My tip: go
for the great classics (e.g. Dale Carnegie), ignore the rest unless you know
that that person has a very similar profile like you.

4\. When you experiment be ethical but err a little bit on the side for
choosing for yourself. Chances are that you're too careful anyway. Slight
transgressions are fine as long as you learn from them and rectify your
mistakes. If you can't make mistakes then you're not in a place to learn
anyway. My worst transgression was saying outrageous opening lines and looking
at the effects of them [2].

5\. Find books via HN just use the search bar or some aggregated data analysis
on what books HN uses. That'll be a good application of 3.

With these tips you can find truth: ignore most books, test things yourself,
do take the books for people who were like you (that's not an easy tip), err
on the side of making mistakes. Personally, I haven't found an easier way and
I learned this over 10+ years.

A couple of tips on dealing with anxiety:

1\. Try to find core positive emotions that are natural to you. Mine are (in
order): curiosity, fantasy/imagining things and playfulness (playfulness is
already tricky). Identify it, frame everything like that. Curiosity goes
really well with finding truth and experimenting. "How does this work?" is a
question I often asked and tested.

2\. Learn meditation, also helps in boosting emotional intelligence. I can
write a book about it but I'll recommend you one instead. Search Inside
Yourself from Chade-Meng Tan. Best book I know on the topic (I read a lot of
them).

One tip on politics itself:

1\. I don't know where I read it but it stuck. Social skills and political
skills are different. There are people with good social skills who are not
good politically. The reason is that political games are about groups not
individuals. Learn how to divide and conquer (i.e. talk to multiple people 1
on 1 and push your ideas through that you are convinced about and think are
good for the company).

On finding coaches:

1\. Coaches are very hard to find. I've had several of them. The one that
worked best for me was the one that showcased and demonstrated what was
actually possible by doing it himself. All looked really social and good. But
you need someone who's able to demonstrate and give real-time live feedback
even during the conversation (in a covert way via text for example for obvious
reason, or in ear also helps though I never tried that).

On using advice:

1\. I am a sponge and would be too easily influenced by advice. A couple of
questions you need to ask yourself for taking advice: (1) does the advice make
sense to you? If it doesn't then why not (possibly do a couple of Google
searches). If it still doesn't then leave that particular advice as on hold.
Don't discard it but put it on the backlog and don't use it.

On dealing with people you tell that you're doing this:

1\. If people are weirded out that you're methodical and as scientific as
possible about this then discard that opinion. It's tough for other people to
know what you go through since they never had this problem themselves. Even
good empaths may not be able to empathize with you (though some obviously do,
they are good empaths after all).

[1] i.e. not work but with strangers or if there can't go too much wrong then
in your work environment.

[2] Spoiler alert: almost all my predictions were off, you can say some
ridiculous stuff and have it do something other than completely mop you over
the floor, friends who struggle with this don't believe it. Then I show them
and they still don't believe it. Then I show them 5 to 10 times and they might
consider believing it _some day_. Please experiment yourself.

------
denimalpaca
I haven't seen anyone post this here: Consider seeing a therapist. If you
think you might be on the spectrum, having a professional diagnose you can go
a long way towards understanding how you specifically are having a hard time
with social interactions.

------
AchieveLife
Talk to a psychotherapist. You are having social anxiety and they are best
equipped to help you.

EDIT: It's also important to note that introversion does not equal poor
interpersonal skills. It's about what environment an individual feels
rejuvenated.

------
rgrieselhuber
The best advice (though likely to be unpopular) is learn the basics of
evolutionary psychology and body language. There is a lot more to learn after
that but if you don't know those, there is too much you won't be able to see.

~~~
navait
Isn't this like learning assembly to program python?

~~~
rgrieselhuber
It’s more like learning the alphabet if you want to read.

------
sizzle
Marketing should be working with a UX design team to get the design specs
right, so devs aren't burdened by having to keep redoing their work cause some
marketer didn't know what users actually wanted/needed.

------
brandall10
Highly recommend "The Passionate Programmer" by Chad Fowler.

------
jmkni
This will be a controversial one, but have you tried alcohol?

The next time there’s a staff night out, go to it, drink, lose your
inhibitions and talk to people.

~~~
deathanatos
Not that this comment is good advice, but that this comment is downvoted, but
the comment about being a backstabbing, lying, traitorous arse survives… We
have a long way to go as a species.

 _A_ drink with coworkers is probably okay. "lose your inhibitions", however…
no. Remain in control of your faculties, please. I've had to help more than
one coworker who has drunk too much, and it is obnoxious, and it _does_ lower
my opinion of that person.

Don't feel obligated to drink alcohol, either. I wouldn't question it, and
there are plenty of drinks that visually aren't distinguishable from alcohol
if you need a cover (e.g., coke vs. rum and coke, sprite vs. gin and tonic),
and a drink in the hand is a nice stressball of sorts. (And I've used "I have
to drive later." as a reason to not have alcohol, but still enjoy the company
of others.)

~~~
roenxi
I don't want to be judgmental, and say this with the mildest of intentions
(grandparent is just trying to make a contribution, and it would be good
advice for some people), but as you point out - "lose your inhibitions" is
_worse_ advice than "be a traitorous arse". To someone who doesn't know how to
do something, 'alter your mental state and hope that works' is useless advice
because holding a drink doesn't magically teach you anything. In addition, the
realistic worst case scenario of "be an arse" executed badly is it doesn't
work out for you and you stop. The realistic worst case of purposefully upping
your alcohol intake is physical danger and lawsuits if you are purposefully
exploring new levels of inebriation.

Plus the original question is office politics. Socialising is a small
component of office politics if you don't want to socialise.

~~~
deathanatos
That's an interesting way to look at it, and you're not wrong. The way I was
considering it when I wrote the post was more along a consideration of the
Golden Rule; that is, "drinking" is really only a danger to yourself (at
least, to some degree; it is possible, I suppose, that you make decisions
while under the influence that _do_ effect others), whereas the other comment
I was referring to is pretty encouraging active harm to other individuals.
(Although, I suppose if you expect that that's the playing field, one could
argue that it isn't a violation of the Golden Rule? That is, if it is "par for
the course"? Nonetheless, it seems like a good way to ensure limited
_collective_ success, which is perhaps my real objection to it.)

------
danvoell
I am not very political, but I really enjoyed reading The Fixer. It might help
you understand politics as it relates to technologies you know.

------
TA43
I don't have particular resources for this type of issue but a few pointers
which might help:

1 - Have a clear definition of your jobs remit in your own mind and be willing
to say no entirely or partially to requests which are impossible or poorly
defined. If someone hasn't given it thought themselves, why should you? This
should be phrased in a polite manner and if they don't respond followed up
after a few days to ensure blame cannot be placed on you.

2 - Identify key figures in your environment who are gatekeeprs/yield power in
the business. These are people who you want to befriend or destabalise/reduce
their power over you.

3 - Get some social skills outside of work, socialising is a skillset and can
be developed regardless of the person. It is easier for some and more
difficult for others but with practice you will improve, why not try a local
tech club to test the water and maybe have some fun?

4 - Go to work events once you have some social skills. If you're terrible at
even having a short, average conversation about the weekend for example, you
will just be known as the awkward work guy who comes to events but no one
likes..

5 - Understand what people want/their motiviations and their routine; If you
can understand what makes a person tick and how they function, even on a low
level you can use this information to either build rapport or to introduce
chaos. An example of this would be a persons morning routine, if you know
someone, lets say your boss arrives at 7:58 in the morning like clockwork,
puts his bags by his desk and then gets ready to grab a coffee, why not ask
him just before he puts his bags down and goes through the coffee thought
process? You can talk about how the weekend was, maybe something funny that
happened in the office etc and build rapport but also provide an outlet for
venting.

------
geggam
Dale Carnegie classes, his book on how to win friends and influence people.

It takes work

------
dlwdlw
Would recommend the book: The Courage to be Disliked.

------
mtea994
dont interact but learn how to say no in non offensive manner so you dont get
more tasks assigned to you than your actuall half

------
smartplaya2001
i hate office politics and never was good at it. Thats why i decided to work
for myself and start my own company.

------
spectrum101
This is a throw-away account. I have been diagnosed with autism spectrum
disorder and don't disclose that to the community or my employers. My advice
might be helpful as people with my condition have difficulty in the workplace.

A part of becoming a senior/lead developer is, in my experience, largely a
social endeavor. At some point the problems one faces are not tractable for a
single engineer to face alone. There is a finite limit on your time and many
unknown problems that can overwhelm even the most astute and exemplary
developer cannot be avoided. This is where you need to learn to delegate
responsibility for certain tasks to other team members and learn to lead
everyone in the right direction towards a common goal.

Your intuitions are correct: this is a skill you will have to learn and good
on you for asking for advice. I treat it like another engineering problem: a
distributed consensus protocol with high latency in the average case.

For reading material other people have recommended _How to Win Friends and
Influence People_. I have found the advice in this book to be practical for
dealing with interpersonal relationships in the workplace and learning how to
gain and use influence. Influence is a social currency that I have found to be
effective in negotiating disagreements and convincing people to adopt your
ideas.

For learning how to work in a team as a leader or manager I also recommend
_Extreme Ownership_ by Jocko Willinck [0]. It has provided me a framework to
use which has been helpful as my career has transitioned into leadership and
management. I have been fortunate enough that my team has been receptive to
these practices although getting there has been difficult.

One of the harder lessons to learn is how to deliver constructive criticism
and feedback in an engineering context. This is especially difficult for
someone like me when communicating with junior engineers on my team in code
review. It's one of my greater weaknesses but is sometimes an asset when I do
succeed at showing someone why type theory matters or how an appropriate use
of a data structure can improve performance. The problem I have the most
difficulty with is when a senior colleague on my team insists on a factually
incorrect assertion and forces their opinion by using misleading questions and
rhetoric. Unfortunately I have not come across any books or courses on
constructive criticism to share.

I do find the Recurse Center's Code of Conduct to be a good guide as well:
[https://www.recurse.com/code-of-conduct](https://www.recurse.com/code-of-
conduct)

[0] [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23848190-extreme-
ownersh...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23848190-extreme-ownership)

Dealing with people is challenging and exhausting however having a framework
for interactions and setting expectations ahead of time helps make these
challenges po

~~~
riotinto
> One of the harder lessons to learn is how to deliver constructive criticism
> and feedback... I have not come across any books or courses on constructive
> criticism to share.

I strongly recommend the book _Thanks for the Feedback: The Science and Art of
Receiving Feedback Well_ by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen. It lays out a
framework for both giving and receiving feedback.

I also recommend their earlier work _Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss
What Matters Most_. In it they present a psychologically astute picture of
what's really going on in conversations that make us feel uncomfortable, and
they do so using examples, language and priorities of the workplace. They give
very good advice for preparing for and navigating these conversations.

Here is a study guide they created for people who want to practice the book's
strategies:

[https://triadconsultinggroup.com/sites/default/files/Small%2...](https://triadconsultinggroup.com/sites/default/files/Small%20Group%20Study%20Guide.pdf)

I've actually been thinking about starting a meetup to find people to practice
this stuff with.

------
creep
I have your exact problem. I've been diagnosed as autism type I as well
(equivalent to asperger's).

There are lots of good tips here, and often people suggest reading books and
whatnot. Personally, it looks a bit overwhelming. I'll give you my advice just
to add to the torrent, and hopefully you'll read it. I hope it's a bit
gentler.

I'm not currently employed (still in university) and so this little problem of
mine has not affected me as much as it may have affected you, but I recognize
it will likely become a problem in the future, so I've been taking steps to
remedy the thing.

1) The first thing I did this semester was start a conversation with the guy
sitting next to me in class. He asked that I save his seat. When he came back,
I asked what program he was in and etc. and got his Facebook contact info.
Now, I've gone to great lengths to avoid him outside of class, but we talk in
the ten minutes before the lecture starts, and I have found it's a good
balance of pain vs gain. __Take home __: 5-10 min of meaningless conversation
is better than nothing.

2) Someone else came up to _me_ this semester in another class, asking about
the homework. In time, I found that sitting next to him and chatting idly was
actually relaxing. He is the kind of guy we all need in our life-- he simply
doesn't have judgments to doll out to you, and will happily converse about
whatever comes up, and happily sit silent if there's nothing to talk about. I
make sure to ask how he is on occasion if I don't see him around. __Take home
__: When you find someone that doesn 't make you want to jump out of your
skin, attempt to maintain your relationship.

3) __Maintaining relationships __: If you don 't like social obligations but
still want to maintain relationships to the degree that you're not treated as
a robot in the office, the best thing to do is ask questions of the other
person, the answers to which, of course, you are personally and genuinely
interested in. I ask people about their day to start, and then I ask questions
about their future: what do they want and why. This helps me understand their
motivations and puts me at ease because the knowledge allows me to predict
their behavior more accurately. Another thing is to just ask about people's
days whenever you see them. When people give you a genuine response to the
question, then you know you're on their good side. You can get on their good
side by acting interested in them and asking about their day!

4) Don't push yourself to take on too many relationships or to get close to a
lot of people. Keep it as simple as possible. Maintain as much distance as you
want while at the same time edging slowly out of your comfort zone. Say hi or
smile at people you pass in the office. If someone comes to your desk to give
you a task, ask them how their day is going, SMILE. It's these little tiny
actions that accumulate in the other person's mind to form a picture of you.
You don't need to do anything huge.

------
alok-g
First off, put it into your head that people skills are critical, for both
professional and personal lives. Make it a goal for yourself to develop them.

Below are a few things that I had found helpful:

1\. Book "Human Relationships" by Steve Duck [1]. The author of the book says
that his students were suffering from the same people/relationship issues as
everyone else in spite of the relevant education in psychology. So he reasoned
something is all wrong about the way social psychology is taught, and wrote
this book for helping people as oppose to teaching them. One impact on me was
learning that the percentage of people feeling shy about initiating a
conversation at some point in their lives was nearing half of them. In other
words, the person in the front of you could also be just waiting to talk to
you. I had read the first edition of the book which had very natural tone to
it. The fourth edition [1] seems much refined for rigor, which seems impacting
the basic premise of the book! So consider buying an older edition.

2\. The challenge for me wasn't just difficulty in talking, but a limitation
of interest and knowledge outside of the STEM fields. This then becomes a
vicious cycle since you would not talk to people and not even learn about
topics outside of work. Build some common interests outside of work, may be
just by reading some books in isolation. Read a lot of news, as a lot of
conversations build on it.

3\. Early on, I used to be the silent one in many conversations because of #2
above. I started participating in the conversations simply by asking questions
on what I did not understand. Asking too many questions annoys people, so need
to be balanced. Read about the discussed topics offline afterwards as needed.
Over the time, you get to understand those conversations, will start
participating, and also, those people would start accommodating you while
calibrating themselves for you with the skill level you have.

4\. The people around would accommodate you, as far as they do not see it as
your lacking interest in them. It's better to be seen as a person lacking
people skills rather than as one lacking interest in them. Try not to miss
lunches and dinners opportunities at work, even if you are not talking much
there.

5\. One-to-one conversations are easier. Break the ice with those. Soon you
would be comfortable in a group setting where you are comfortable with say
half of the people.

6\. Join social media and make connections with all those people. Being behind
a keyboard instead of face-to-face helps because you get more time to think
how to respond. Do genuinely participate, click Likes, etc. This will not only
develop connections with those people, but also slowly make you better for
live verbal conversations.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Human-Relationships-Steve-
Duck/dp/141...](https://www.amazon.com/Human-Relationships-Steve-
Duck/dp/1412929997/)

------
clubm8
Sun Tzu has several insights.

------
malmsteen
Make friend with people good at it.

Also work on being more at ease. "Limiting human interaction" is a bad route
to go down to.

And finally on a positive note: learn to love your anxiety. Listen to what it
says to you, knowing that its will ultimately help u do things better. People
with no anxiety dont do things well. Learn to use it and master it to be
better. Dont run from it

