
How to Be Polite - cjr
https://medium.com/message/9bf1e69e888c
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mbech
I'm all aboard with being pleasant and respectful of others, but find some
aspects of this distasteful. Specifically, the portions of the author's
"politeness" that involve performance, or adhering to a script I find off-
putting. For example:

"Just ask the other person what they do, and right after they tell you, say:
'Wow. That sounds hard.' "

While it seems that many aspects of "politeness" are intended to trigger
pleasant feelings in the other person (which seems harmless enough), I find it
hard to be in favor of something so disingenuous. Even when it comes to small
talk, I think one can be both respectful and charming without having to fall
back on a script and cheapen the interaction.

~~~
jarrett
Hypothetically, what if you actually believed it in every instance? That is,
what if you genuinely felt (as I do) that nearly all jobs are hard. Granted,
some may be harder than others, but I've never met anyone who worked a job I
would describe as "not hard."

~~~
mbech
If author had put in an internal check for "do I really believe what I'm about
to say" and came back with a "yup" every time before speaking, I'd have no
problems at all.

However, as I see it, the pleasant lie baked into the original case is
essentially "regardless of what I might genuinely think about what you just
said, I'm going to give a response to make you feel good about yourself
thereby making me more likeable."

*rephrasing

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vendakka
If I could upvote this twice I would. I still haven't gotten to the point
where I can be polite all of the time. However, I find that when I try to be
pleasant to people on principle, it takes away a lot of stress. I stop
worrying about whether they are treating me well, or if I should start pushing
back, because I've already made the decision to be friendly and polite. If
they choose not to take advantage of this, that is unfortunate. However, I no
longer have to react to their perceived bad behaviour in kind. It is
remarkably freeing when I can do this.

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Htsthbjig
How to be polite IN NORTH AMERICA.

He talks about North American obsession with touch like a normal thing, but in
fact it is the exception in the world.

Being polite changes with the culture. In Morocco it is totally ok for male
friends to hold hands in the street.

In South America you touch a lot other people. The same happens in Africa. I
had India children and adolescent jump over me just after meeting them just
playing.

I had played soccer all around Africa and touched shoulders of my playmates,
grab their head and hug celebrated with them goals without a problem. Also it
was very manly thing to do.

In China or Korea people to burp is ok. Using a kleenex on your nose is not.

In Spain we kiss women when we meet them and we touch kids we recently met a
lot. I used to photograph kids a lot. In the US or UK with the obsession in
sex they have they can put you in jail for photographic a kid smiling.

~~~
phyllostachys
Oh, if only more of my fellow countrymen could get a worldly experience before
they settle down. Many people in my hometown hardly go but an hour or two away
except on a vacation.

I remember how I had a culture class before my first deployment to Iraq (USMC,
2007). I, being someone who has always been interested in other cultures,
really liked it. I'm not sure my fellow Marines took to it so quickly but
after we came back I think they were better people for it (the class and the
deployment).

I think your reference to our American Prudish-ness is likely spot on too.

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bowlofpetunias
Most of this is only true for Anglo-Saxon values of politeness, which many
other cultures will see as insincere, fake, cold, manipulative and even
downright insulting.

This may not apply to the author, who writes _" I am often consumed with a
sense of overwhelming love and empathy"_, but certainly to the vast majority
of people who don't have such extreme levels of empathy but use the same
tactics.

Yes, like many people I will fall for the _" that sounds hard"_ trick, but if
I see you pull that multiple times I'll file you under "manipulative cunt"
unless I have a good reason to assume you're that one in a million who
actually gives a fuck. Because most of us really, really don't.

~~~
com2kid
> unless I have a good reason to assume you're that one in a million who
> actually gives a fuck. Because most of us really, really don't.

I'd encourage you to re-evaluate that.

What if you just so happen to live in a world where most people are nice,
kind, and caring?

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AceJohnny2
I agree strongly on his thesis, that being polite is a good thing to be and
that too many folks are oblivious to its usefulness. I'm not so keen on his
writing style, but he makes a number of good points.

"Useless in high school but extremely useful later on": yes, school is when
you'd expect to learn such skills, but high-school is such a toxic environment
that too many folks learn the opposite of politeness (like how to dominate in
an interaction, or flee it).

"it provides insulation against bad situations" (the gloves/dirty laundry
paragraph): very much so. Politeness and etiquette provides guidelines to
interact in situations that would instinctively lead to aggression.

"it lets you gather information about people": I don't like the manipulation
undertones of this part, but it's true that with a little skill you can turn
many a conversation into a mine of information and bonding.

"touching and personal space": as others have mentioned, this is very flexible
across cultures, but I believe that everyone has some level of personal space
boundaries. Break these and the other person becomes defensive, uncomfortable.

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bellerocky
Hair touching aside, the amount of space required between people is bordering
on the absurd. I'm sorry you feel uncomfortable but two arm lengths of
personal space at all times is not something you're entitled to.

It's like we all want to live in a bubble. In non-western countries bumping
into someone isn't the traumatizing horror it is in the US. It's just about
expectations, if people didn't expect to have a vastness of empty air around
them they wouldn't suffer PTSD for the rest of the day when someone stood
almost within touching distance of them.

I'm not saying it's OK to be breathing down people's necks and people should
consider the comfort zones of others, but it's kind of extreme in the US. If
there's an empty chair next to you, I'll sit in it, and if there's a public
urinal available next to yours I'll make use of it. Deal with it.

~~~
Squarel
That is because different cultures have different customs. In some cultures it
is acceptable to hug and put your arm around someone you have not met before,
in others, even non-western ones, it is seen as extremely rude.

My language teacher when I moved here was telling our mixed nationality class
about how in her perception, as you moved further north from the
Mediterranean, the personal space people have increases, and how this does not
mean people are not comfortable with people near them. This was in the same
lesson where we started covering different gestures and how offensive in one
is fine in another.

Two arms length is a farther than I usually have, but coming within an arms
length if I do not know you, especially at a party, unless to tap my shoulder
for attention will make me feel uncomfortable. Two arms length requires me to
raise my voice to talk to you, which I consider ruder than being close.

That aside, the OP reads more like a "How to social engineer" than a how to be
polite.

~~~
tripzilch
> Two arms length requires me to raise my voice to talk to you, which I
> consider ruder than being close.

I've been paying attention to this and have come to the conclusion that this
is one of the major factors why Americans are perceived as "loud".

As you indicate, this can lead to another type of invasion of personal space
(for those who aren't part of that particular conversation).

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darrelld
Just remember, polite varies from situation to situation. Growing up in the
Caribbean when I was a teen meeting other people my age was a very physical
thing. You might have someone's arm around your shoulder or get jostled around
a little within hours of meeting them. In fact that was how relationships
formed.

Touching a girls hair, or even giving it a light tug was all part of the
flirting game. To be clear it's not like you just met someone and started
touching them everywhere and it didn't have to happen everytime, but during
the course of conversation if it was appropriate and natural a light touch
here and there was just part of how things worked.

Moving to the US I found out very quickly that you give most people space
unless you were invited in closer, but I've found Europeans that I've met are
more open to an appropriate natural touch

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rheide
Excellent article, and I feel it also applies to me, so I wrote down some
thoughts. maqr's comment about this being dangerously close to social
engineering rings very true, although I doubt that it's intentional/by choice.
Personally I've never had a lot of natural conversational skills, so I find
myself falling back to old tricks that work at times when I'm not confident,
and sometimes they happen to be tricks that relate to social engineering. I'd
like to think that this doesn't make my interactions less genuine. Finding a
polite way to proceed through the conversation has not been a problem for me
since I learned this.

Lately, rather than moving towards politeness, I'm trying to move away from
it. The examples of always replying positively to people, never steering
towards or even approach hostility is a very, very tiring path to walk. In my
experience, it does pay off on the whole, but I've spent a lot of time talking
to people that were just never 'interesting' or 'rewarding' to be with, simply
because it always seems easier to please than to confront.

These days I'm trying to move towards blunt honesty with people as soon as I
can (after an initial period of polite conversation to gauge if they'd be
comfortable with it). So far, I think the people I know appreciate me more for
it, and the people who wouldn't appreciate me for it are not in my life.

Or perhaps it just feels good to try something different.

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binarysolo
I'm surprised at all the approval of this politeness strategy given my modus
operandi -- making sure I'm doing interesting-enough things to have a
comfortable influx of people, then filter through them by being upfront and
asking hard but honest questions.

I don't think we realistically can connect with everyone on a meaningful
level, and given there's 7-8 billion people out there, a search/filter
strategy just seems more reasonable than trying to please everyone.

That being said, I am not advocating to the burning of any bridges at all --
as the scenes we walk tend to get smaller and smaller the more focused and
specialized they get.

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AceJohnny2
It's a stereotype that us geeks are poorly socialized. After the all-too-
common years of school bullying and stunted social growth that entails, I was
lucky enough to meet the right people and learn better skills of communication
and empathy.

Politeness for me started as a facade to hide behind, but over time it turned
into a tool of empathy and connection. I believe this to be my most useful and
powerful skill, far beyond any technical skill I have.

I wish more geeks (such as Lennart Poettering to name just one notorious
hacker) would learn this.

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molbioguy
Politeness serves as a buffer. It gives you time to evaluate the situation and
gain more information while keeping you from making a rash judgement - both
positive and negative. Later on, it keeps you from unnecessarily making
enemies of the people you don't respect but must nevertheless deal with. It
works hand in hand with patience, which I see as being in very short supply
these days. In my experience, it is an extremely valuable trait.

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spodek
Despite his points about politeness helping him, which I appreciate,
politeness is still following rules, aka doing what other people tell you.

With social skills, as with any other discipline, merely following rules will
make you a craftsperson, not an artist. Artistry comes from knowing the rules
so well you can transcend them. I prefer the musician who knows how to
improvise sometimes the "wrong" note, the quarterback who shines when the play
falls apart, the chess player who develops new moves, ... you get the idea.

Personally, I'm more interested in becoming an artist than just following
rules. For example, I prefer to find out how I can quickly create deep bonds,
which you can do when you break some of the author's rules. I grew up with
poor social skills and the geek scientist in me wanted to understand what was
going on. Then the geek entrepreneur in me wanted to use what I figured out
and develop it as far as I could. Then the business entrepreneur in me wanted
to polish it so people would appreciate it. Now I coach people in it too. I
feel like the guy wrote a story about how to play scales on the piano, though
I enjoyed the writing style. Who wants to stop there?

My story about my friend and Jack Nicholson at the U.S. Open illustrates the
social value in breaking a dress code (from my blog
[http://joshuaspodek.com/high-status-living-rules-jack-
nichol...](http://joshuaspodek.com/high-status-living-rules-jack-nicholson-u-
s-open)). There are a million other role models of people who shine in
breaking rules, but I'll just tell that one story about him:

A friend who grew up in Queens and became the senior ball boy at the U.S. Open
told me a story about his friend who worked there too.

One day he was working at the door to the U.S. Open’s VIP room enforcing the
jacket-and-tie dress code. Jack Nicholson came by and started walking into the
room wearing shorts and a t-shirt.

My friend’s friend, following the rules, in a nervous high school student
voice, said “I’m sorry Mr. Nicholson. There is a dress code and I’m afraid I
have to ask you to follow it.”

With a polite laugh, Jack Nicholson said “ _I don’t think so,_ ” and continued
in.

I'll bet Jack Nicholson didn't start breaking rules because he became a star.
I'll bet he became a star by breaking rules -- not blindly, but intelligently.

~~~
tormeh
Oh look, the PUA community is arriving.

To be more constructive: There are great benefits to having high status, but
it's simply unreachable for most of us, in addition to having hidden
downsides. Instead, I would focus on being pleasant to people around you and
create good personal relationships.

~~~
tptacek
I don't understand your first sentence at all.

~~~
btreecat
PUA means Pick Up Artists.

There are lots of people in the PUA community who just use the same techniques
that work to "pick up" people to be more socially confident and meet people.

Often people will talk about things like maintaining eye contact, escalating,
inner game, etc. In the end, its just exploiting how we are as humans the same
way slight of hand works and we all clap at David Blane.

~~~
tptacek
I got that part. I just didn't see the PUA signifiers in the comment they
replied to.

~~~
vinceguidry
I think he's keying off of the "know the rules so you can transcend them"
idea. It's used in a lot of PUA material.

~~~
jiggy2011
It's not a thing unique to pick up artists though, it can be applied to most
arts or indeed programming.

There was an article posted on HN a while ago that explained a similar effect
(dressing differently to show status) outside of the context of PUA. For
example Zuckerberg wearing a hoodie to meetings with Morgan Stanley.

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lnanek2
Seems kind of annoying and inefficient to me. If I took someone out on a date
and started talking about tumors I'd rather they say to talk about something
else than just be polite like he did. Then I could integrate the suggestion
and maybe we'd have a good time. He had to wait for years for another chance
at something that could have been fixed with thirty seconds of honestly.

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nktr1
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