
Microsoft backs off on Metro - tanglesome
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9245960/Steven_J._Vaughan_Nichols_Told_you_so_Microsoft_backs_off_on_Metro
======
Negitivefrags
As a PC game developer I was angry when I installed Windows 8 for the first
time. It's just so bad it makes me angry.

My immediate reaction was "Why are you killing Windows, Microsoft?". From that
moment I installed the beta I could see the destruction of PC gaming and
everything that came along with it following in it's wake as clear as day.

A lot of people misinterpreted Gabe Newell's dislike of Windows 8. People
seemed to think that he disliked it simply because of the windows app store.
Just because it might compete with Steam. The problem is much more fundamental
than being competed with. He disliked it because it's a terrible release of
Windows that destroys the very platform Steam is on.

It's no wonder Gabe decided to go all in on Linux. It may be a slim hope
getting that to stick, but at least it's a chance. If the platform you rely on
is going to self destruct out from under you, you need to jump to whatever has
a chance of keeping you afloat.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
I know some people on the Windows team. My immediate reaction when I tried the
beta was, "Oh shit, I have to let them know what someone has done to their
work before it's too late! The public is about to see this!". Obviously, after
half a second of thought, I realized they already know and use what I was
seeing for the first time. But it was so shockingly bad that I instinctively
thought it was some kind of mistake that they must not have seen yet.

When I did talk to them next, it was more along the lines of expressing
condolences. I thought since it was objectively bad, it goes without saying
that they also think it is bad, and some internal politics led to what was
released, ruining their hard work. To my surprise, they defended it and
claimed to really like it. I found this so baffling that I've since been
struggling with several theories; "either they are crazy or I am crazy, I'm
not sure which anymore", some kind of Stockholm Syndrome, or something
contaminating the water around Redmond.

I ruled out the possibility that it's me who is crazy after a few rounds of a
game where I hand my laptop to a coworker, who uses windows exclusively (and
one even develops drivers for it), and told them to try and close Internet
Explorer and shut down the computer. Invariably the result was trying for 5 or
10 minutes before walking away in frustration, sometimes with colorful
language.

~~~
sdegutis
I don't buy this argument at all. Just because there are new ways of doing
things doesn't make it bad. This kind of attitude kills innovation.

I just got Windows 8 last week. I found the vast majority of functionality I
needed without any help, in just a few minutes of playing around with it. My
brother (who had Windows 8 for a few months) showed me just a couple more
things, but none of them were necessary, only more convenient ways of doing
the same things I'd already figured out how to do.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
I don't understand the relevance of the sentence: _" Just because there are
new ways of doing things doesn't make it bad."_ Not one single person who
dislikes the Windows 8 interface has ever cited that as the reason.

And there's no way you figured out how to close a metro app without looking it
up.

~~~
lurkinggrue
When I started using the Beta I couldn't get windows snap to work. Spent an
hour trying to get it to work and just couldn't get two metro apps on the
screen at once.

Was it my dual monitor setup? Was it a bug?

No, I didn't have enough screen resolution and the os wouldn't mention this
fact and it took a ton of googling to find out that was the case.

Yeah, the OS was being obtuse.

------
andrewfong
Jay Machalani's concept for fixing the Metro+desktop are the way to go IMHO.
[http://jaymachalani.com/blog/2013/12/12/fixing-
windows-8](http://jaymachalani.com/blog/2013/12/12/fixing-windows-8)

Basically the concept is to include both the Metro + desktop UIs and let the
user explicitly choose. When you're in tablet mode, all desktop apps run full-
screen (or using the Metro-style split screen) and when you're in desktop
mode, Metro apps run windowed like Desktop apps.

~~~
andrewfong
Also, ModernMix gets you part way there on the latter. One interesting side
effect I noticed while using it is that Metro / Modern apps tend to use larger
fonts and layouts (which doesn't really work that well when you shrink the
apps down to a smaller window). Possible solutions include auto-scaling and
letting the app present a different interface when Windowed.

------
gum_ina_package
If you think MS is going to back down on touch, you're dead wrong. Moving
forward, what the author refers to as "Metro" (actually known as the "Modern
Interface") will be the default interface users interact with on WP and XBox.
And yes, it might be true that they'll allow users to boot into the desktop,
it's not confirmed that will be the default option for users.

The whole point of the Modern design language is to provide a unified
experience for all of the Windows ecosystem. Honestly, it's really good -
except on their most used product, Windows. I think when they allow Modern
apps to run inside the desktop, allow desktop apps to work with the charms
bar, and build their own laptop you'll see customers flock in droves to the
Windows ecosystem.

~~~
Touche
Please don't call something "unified" when it shares none of the same code,
doesn't work the same, and was created by teams who don't talk to each other.
Superficially similar looking != unified.

~~~
psykotic
The worst example of this was Visual Studio 2012. The UI was redone to
superficially fit the Metro style. It became flat and monochrome and so
visually undifferentiated that it was hard to navigate. And there were of
course the obnoxious ALL CAPS menu labels.

~~~
ethomson
Why is Visual Studio worse than (say) Word or Outlook, which (of course) did
the same thing?

~~~
taspeotis
Because it's infinitely more complicated. One context menu can end up bigger
than your screen [1] and that doesn't count the number of different debug
windows hanging off the debug menu [2], there's a bunch of menus for testing,
editing etc most of which are not right in front of me.

I'm pretty handy with VS but given its sheer size I don't need any extra
impediments. RANDOM ALL CAPS MAKES THIS SENTENCE DISTRACTING. I HAVE TO LOOK
AT MENUS A LOT.

Contrast with the Outlook ribbon's "Home" tab which puts 95% of what I need to
do right there always visible by default. I don't have to hunt around at the
top of my SCREEN WHICH IS IN DISTRACTING ALL CAPS nearly as much.

The first thing I do after installing VS2012/VS2013 is to edit the registry to
return the correct casing to the top level menus.

The icon scheme for SSDT in VS2012 was the worst. No colour, just symbols.
Want to add a primary key? Look for the key icon. Sounds good in practice but
there's lots of monochromatic key symbols overlaid onto other monochromatic
symbols (primary key on table, symmetric key, foreign key). At least with the
colour I can more easily distinguish the primary key is gold and the blue
square it's in front of is a table.

FWIW I don't think I was significantly less productive in VS2012 than 2010 but
it's a moot point now since VS2013 put colour back in.

[1] Best I could do:
[http://i.msdn.microsoft.com/dynimg/IC653694.png](http://i.msdn.microsoft.com/dynimg/IC653694.png)

[2] [http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-
filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communit...](http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-
filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-
weblogfiles/00-00-00-91-03-metablogapi/8787.ParallelDebuggingWindows_5F00_thumb.jpg)

------
DennisP
The worst problem with Microsoft's touch interface on a non-touch machine:
ordinary mouse movements get interpreted as gestures sometimes. You can lift
your finger off the display, but you can't lift your mouse pointer, so you end
up issuing commands that bring up various screens when all you were trying to
do was move your mouse around. I was pretty surprised that got through
Microsoft's QA.

I decided they had left behind anyone who wanted to get actual work done, and
bought a System76.

------
MichaelGG
What does booting to the desktop have to do with anything? Out of all my Win8
annoyances, having to click the desktop tile is probably at the end of the
list. Without a start menu, doing full-screen context shifts to launch
programs is just annoying. The dumb metro-style things for, say, WiFi
connector (a whole huge side of the screen, instead of a tiny popup, with less
functionality than before) -- all that stuff is what's annoying.

Booting direct to desktop seems as pointless as adding a start button that
launches the full-screen thing. No one was asking for that. So either MS is
incredibly obtuse, or they think they're going to fool people by pretending to
have changed something.

~~~
lurkinggrue
What they did to the Network slide in thing was so annoying. I hate the trend
of wasting tons of screen space for features.

------
sz4kerto
Metro is a fantastic design language. What they screwed up is the combined
Metro+classic desktop in Win8. A Surface 2's UI is great (the problem is the
lack of apps), same for WP.

~~~
eCa
It might be great for touch, but I don't have a touch screen.

On my new Win8 machine the first program I installed was Classic Shell [1].
Now I have a (functioning) start button and it boots straight to the desktop
so I never have to see the touch interface.

[1] [http://www.classicshell.net/](http://www.classicshell.net/)

~~~
shitlord
Another good alternative is Start8:
[http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/](http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/)

------
mirsimiki
The problem with Windows 8 is the fact that it has two different desktops
experiences. I quickly realized I felt much more comfortable using my keyboard
and mouse on the desktop mode. I tried to ignore metro mode and use only the
desktop but the whole metro thing is so ingrained with it's sensible corners
and start menu. After some time of tweaking I could disable most of the things
and ended up with something resembling a crippled Windows 7 at best.

They really had something going on with Windows 7 and they blew it. Maybe
metro is ok for light usage like checking emails, browsing, multimedia, which
is certainly what a lot of people do, but for a developer like me it just
feels handicapped.

This is what Microsoft should do, offer different versions of Windows, one
with metro the other with the desktop. I really don't think they are that
stupid to just mess with the momentum Windows 7 had.

If they don't then they are finished in the desktop front, at least for people
who make things with their OS and not just consume media.

------
ryan-allen
I think Microsoft jumped the gun by a few years, the Surface 2 Pro is the
computing concept I think they believed was the future.

I run Windows 8 exclusively and I use a Start Menu replacement called Start Is
Back, and it's great. It was only $3. I never use Metro on my 27" screen.

HOWEVER, I'm really keen to get something like the Lenovo Helix [1], as I
think that's where things are going to go (like an iPad that has an i5 and
runs both iOS and OS X). Sensible friends of mine who have the original
Surface say metro is great as a tablet UI, the only annoyance being that the
Store is lacking in many apps.

Either way, I think Metro is OK, they just screwed up the roll out. As we see
more devices like the Surface 2 Pro, the Dell Venue 11 and the Lenovo Thinkpad
Helix, it'll start to make more sense.

[1] [http://shopap.lenovo.com/au/en/tablets/thinkpad/thinkpad-
hel...](http://shopap.lenovo.com/au/en/tablets/thinkpad/thinkpad-helix/)

~~~
Mister_Snuggles
That reminds me a lot of the Compaq tablet computers, such as the TC1100[1].

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Compaq_TC1100](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Compaq_TC1100)

------
UK-AL
People won't be happy unless its the start menu from windows xp forever.

~~~
daigoba66
For me, the Win7 start menu was the best. Primarily because of the built-in
search, which, while not perfect, makes Win8 search seem broken by comparison.
Also I'm probably not a typical user in that don't hunt for the app I want to
launch: it's either pinned to the taskbar, something I can quickly search for,
or in my PATH to launch from the Run prompt.

~~~
kinghajj
How is Win8's search any worse? Press Win, type the program you want, press
Enter to run it. It looks different, yeah, but functionally it's the same.

~~~
daigoba66
In Win8 (prior to 8.1) there wasn't a unified search. I run a lot of programs
that aren't "installed", but are just executables in an indexed directory
(like small utilities, or putty, etc). These do not show up by "just typing".
And in 8.1, "everything" isn't really "everything". It doesn't search within
my e-mails, or other programs that used to integrate with the Windows search
indexer. It's basically garbage compared to Vista and 7.

------
leobelle
This is the right thing to do. I'm glad they've realized it. Windows 7 is
miles more usable than even 8.1.

------
InclinedPlane
I think it's obvious that mobile & desktop OSes need to essentially merge to a
substantial degree.

But the idea that you should use one and only one control scheme / UI in every
use case is just dumb. There's not going to be one universal way for humans to
interact with a computer, period. Sometimes touch will be used, sometimes
keyboards & mice, sometimes voice, sometimes other methods of control. It's
vastly more valuable to figure out how to seamlessly transition between
different modes of use/control and to maximize the utility of each mode than
to try to engineer some grand compromise design that can be used in all modes
but takes advantage of none of them very well.

Moreover, Microsoft needs to learn a very hard lesson here. If you want to
change things you need to transition. UI reboots are like system rewrites,
they carry a lot of the same risks, if you commit to the new system before
it's mature without giving people the option of using the old system you'll
often times end up with rejection instead of acceptance. Microsoft has
developed a bad habit lately of ramming new ways of doing things down users
throats without any time to get used to the changes. The only people who can
get away with bullshit like that are Apple, and Microsoft is very definitely
not Apple.

------
drcoopster
Isn't Windows 8.1 already out? It seems like this article is a little bit
behind the times.

~~~
ptx
If you dereference the source links you'll find that "the forthcoming Windows
8.1 update" in the article refers to Windows 8.1 Update 1 (which updates 8.1),
not to 8.1 being an update of 8.0:
[http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/30/5362156/windows-8-1-update...](http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/30/5362156/windows-8-1-update-1-boot-
to-desktop-by-default)

------
JTenerife
I've hardly ever read a non-opiniated review or discussion about windows 8.
All these discussions go direct to our fanboy hearts. It's like the
programming languages or favorite IDE discussions ... :-)

Anyway, there's a huge potential for having one device that can be used with
different UI concept based on the peripherals: A tablet docked into a docking
station should be operated by mouse and keyboard (desktop mode), otherwise it
should be operated by touch (metro mode). Windows 8 should recognize what
default to use.

While Metro as default for a PC doesn't make sense, it's not really a big
problem. The issue is mainly amplified by our emotions. It took me much longer
to get used to OS X, but as I liked the device to much, it didn't bother me at
all. I kind of enjoyed exploring how to use it.

------
alkonaut
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the design language of "modern", and
no one ever has needed several resizable draggable windows for their desktop.
That UI paradigm should be easy to replace by a nice tiling manager.

What I do need however is a UI that lets me run my legacy apps side by side
with new ones, in any configuration and number. I don't mind the look of metro
and I never liked the start menu. If my start menu is a start screen, fine.

The biggest problems are a) the divide between old and new. The mistake was
making a completely separate UI rather than making a single UI that could
adapt to both touch and mouse interaction. b) the API debacle: what IS
microsofts strategy for the future of heavy desktop apps? What happened to
wpf/xaml? Developers don't like constant surprises.

------
smegel
> Dumping Metro is a great step toward making Windows 8 more attractive, but
> the Windows 8 desktop mode still doesn't have a real Start menu.

Because they aren't actually dumping metro? The problem with metro wasn't that
it was the default UI, but that it replaced the start menu. I really hate all
these disingenuous tech reporters who lauded the "return of the start button",
when they knew true well that the problem wasn't that the button disappeared,
but that the menu was gone. Now we have another shill reporter claiming
victory because of a default change, when metro is still just a click away.

The problem with metro is that it exists at all (on non touch screen devices).

------
esw
I hope Stardock Software (makers of Start8) enjoyed the wild ride while it
lasted.

~~~
kitsune_
I'd rather have them concentrate on Galactiv Civilizations 3 anyways.

~~~
thearn4
I was a pretty huge fan of Sins of a Solar Empire for a long while too.

------
mattkevan
I have no idea how easy this would be, I imagine rock hard, but couldn't they
do a responsive interface, like Canonical is trying to do with Ubuntu?

Apps come packaged with both a mobile and desktop UI, and depending on which
input devices are available it shows the relevant one. For example, a Surface
by itself would show the metro UI, but connect a type cover or a keyboard and
mouse and it'd flip to the desktop interface. Same apps, same data.

Obviously it would take a lot of work to ensure consistency and maintain
spacial awareness between modes, but they do still employ some bright people,
right?

~~~
contextfree
Conceptually that was more or less what they were trying to do with Windows 8
- provide affordances optimized for each input method. For example, with touch
you use swipe/flick gestures to pan back and forth, with mouse a scrollbar
appears and you use that. With mouse some commands have small controls that
appear when you hover over an item, with touch those controls are on a bar at
the bottom of the screen. And so on.

What made it different from what Ubuntu is doing (as I understand it) is a
couple of additional problems they were trying to solve:

First, you're probably thinking about "hybrid" devices in terms of having a
tablet that you use with touch exclusively for X hours, and then attaching a
mouse and keyboard, having it become a "PC" and using it with those inputs
exclusively for X hours. In this usage model it's OK to have pretty stark
changes between modes because you don't mode switch very often.

However, they really wanted to enable a usage model where "touch plus mouse
plus keyboard" became more like "mouse plus keyboard" in that you can
constantly switch between inputs without really thinking about it, or even use
them simultaneously. For this model to work whatever optimizations are done
for different inputs need to be less intrusive and more localized - generally
more about hiding/showing certain controls than completely changing the
layout.

Second, there was a feeling that even for large displays and mouse/keyboard
the desktop windowing model felt too heavy and required too much manual window
management, at least for some (more casual) use cases. So they were hoping the
model developed for tablets could double as a solution to the "Windows feels
like too much work" problem on the desktop, especially for home PCs used for
entertainment and communication.

To me the recent rumors sound like they're continuing the same general
philosophy (of having a common UI with optimizations for each input method),
but maybe deprioritizing the above two goals somewhat, which would leave them
freer to make more drastic per-input-method optimizations.

------
JeremyMorgan
I can't really complain about it much, it's awesome on my Surface of course,
and not so great on my laptop. But really all I do is go back to desktop and
it's really out of the way.

I too am missing the start menu, I think it's one of those things that just
worked so well they shouldn't have changed it. The extra few seconds added to
go in and find something on the metro desktop and pin it to my desktop or
taskbar is a waste.

I see what they tried to do, but it's didn't really work out.

~~~
Amezarak
I'm confused. Why does it take you longer to find something on the Metro
desktop? At least in my usage, it functions exactly like the old start menu
did: I either start typing to find a program (most of the time) or I hit all
programs and look around for it. What slows you down?

The main things I dislike about 8/8.1 are hot corners and the Metro apps being
default on desktops. (Seriously Microsoft, I'm glad you finally implemented a
native PDF reader but come on.) I don't understand complaints about the start
screen.

That being said, Windows 8 did one really great thing for the desktop: multi-
monitor support finally works the way it should have all along. The upgrade is
worth it just for that, for someone like me with three montors.

~~~
taspeotis
> I'm confused. Why does it take you longer to find something on the Metro
> desktop? At least in my usage, it functions exactly like the old start menu
> did: I either start typing to find a program (most of the time) or I hit all
> programs and look around for it. What slows you down?

Yeah I never got why people complained about this. We're running Windows 8 and
now 8.1 at work on our development machines (not for "now I can develop Metro
apps!"). It's good because we get the latest RDS protocol improvements so
remote access works just that little bit better and Windows 8 comes with other
technical improvements.

My workflow for launching applications never changed: if it's not pinned to my
taskbar then it's WinKey + Type "Fi" (say for Firefox) + Enter.

All that said, I did install ClassicShell a fortnight ago just to try it out
(after using the Start Screen since Windows 8 RC) and not having to leave my
desktop for the Metro interface just works that leeeeeeeeetle bit better in
unquantifiable ways. Now it's on my home + work PCs.

------
seanalltogether
Does anyone know what this means for the windows 8 app store? Is it still
going to be restricted to metro only apps? I know you can link to desktop apps
but you can't sell them through the app store yet. Will they lift this
restriction?

------
ii
Flat is inevitable. Flat is practical. But, yeah, you can not make money on it
yet, because you know people love what they used to look at. They don't like
change.

Kazimir Malevich 100 years ago tried to tell the world about it but the world
is slow.

~~~
DonGateley
Flat is nothing more than a cost cutting measure to "benefit" developers. They
don't have to pay for or do design any more so they can be more productive in
churning out more of the trivial things Steven Sinofsy and Jony Ive think
really sell licenses and machines.

I feel really sorry for all the graphics design people whose work I loved and
who now have to use pastel crayons with large blunt tips which of course
anyone can do so puts the designers pretty much out of work. I hope this too
shall pass and eye pleasing detail shall return. I just hope all the designers
weren't pushed into becoming higher paid programmers never to return to
esthetics.

------
sdegutis
Wow. What's with all the Metro hate? (Besides the term Metro, which definitely
deserves it.)

Yes, it's different. But is it really news when an average user has a negative
bias against change and unfamiliarity?

~~~
sdegutis
Oh wait, I think I know why.

About 5 years ago, when Mac OS X 10.4 was the latest, I started considering
switching from Windows (Vista at the time) to Mac. But all my friends and
colleagues were telling me about how awful Macs were.

They were remembering the Macs from the 90s, and that image stuck with them
long after those Macs died. They had no idea what innovation and improvements
Apple had done with Mac OS X and the iMac. They were just blindly biased and
either okay with it or unaware of it.

I wonder if that's the same thing happening today with Windows 8. I bet people
here are so biased against it because previous versions of Windows or previous
Microsoft products or practices left a bad taste.

To be fair, I don't know any modern news about Microsoft. So maybe they still
are shady business people. But I don't expect to be able to find any unbiased
sources who can confirm or deny this credibly.

------
alkonaut
Hopefully when win9 comes out we can all look back and laugh at this. It
somehow magically fixes the dual UI issue. At least if it doesn't we don't
have do worry about Win10 at all.

------
keeptrying
I think it proves a very important entrepreneurial point - i.e. if you have
distribution your product will do well however bad it is ...

------
transfire
By going back they are just going to hurt themselves even more! HAHAHAHA! This
is the end of Windows. Buh Bye.

------
chenster
I haven't heard much positive things about Windows since version 7. Is it
dying?

