
How to quit your job: An Employers opinion - akhilrex
http://akhil.me/2012/how-to-quit-your-job-an-employers-opinion-2
======
wtvanhest
I know how you can get your desired behavior much more often, follow this
guide as the employer:

Tell me as early as possible – Provide a policy that any employee who quits
will be guaranteed to be paid for up to 4 weeks (or whatever time period you
want notice of) after they quit.

Finish what you have started & Don’t slack around – Tell your leaving
employees how much you appreciate them working for you and remind them that
you really count on them ending strong until the end.

Complete the paperwork - Make the paperwork as easy as possible. I'm not sure
I have ever had to fill out paperwork when leaving a job.

No outbursts please – This should go without saying.

Give honest feedback – This isn't realistic and shouldn't be asked of quiting
employees. It just makes the next point that much harder. As a manager/owner
of a small company it is your responsibility to keep a constant dialogue going
with employees, if you fail at that you will not know what is going on. Asking
for employees to fill you in on what is happening is a problem.

Stay in touch – As the former employer, the street goes both ways. Send an
email every once in a while.

~~~
ThrowAway_2Week
> Tell me as early as possible I would advise people not to always do this.

I work for a consulting company and am currently not doing any client work. I
accepted a job offer 2 weeks ago, but didn't tell my company until this past
Friday. When I put in my 2 week notice, my company informed me that I would
only be needed for one week. They effectively stole a weeks worth of pay from
me because I tried to give adequate notice.

Now I understand that since I was currently not with a client that I was
costing the company money, so I see their point of view from a financial stand
point. But the message the company said to me was that I shouldn't have given
them advance notice, and should have told them the week of that I was
quitting.

I would advise people to give 2 weeks notice and not a week more if they are
not heavily involved in a critical project.

Posting under a throw away since my account has personal information and I
don't wish to bad mouth my former company.

~~~
ryguytilidie
That's the frustrating thing about threads like this. Employers list their
expectations for what you should do for them, and they seem fairly common
sense, but they dont have the common sense and self awareness to think about
the situation from the other perspective.

------
edw519
Nice post, OP. Now let me tell you about those times when your suggestions are
_exactly the opposite_ of what you should do:

 _Tell me as early as possible_

Why? So security can show me the door today and I'm unexpectedly without a
paycheck for weeks? Although OP may not do this, lots of place do. Beware.

 _Finish what you have started_

The more I leave unfinished, the greater my revenue opportunity (via
consulting).

 _Don’t slack around_

OK. As long as you pay me and thank me for all the extra work and overtime. Oh
wait, that may be one if the reasons I'm leaving.

 _Complete the paperwork_

"Paperwork" is your albatross, not mine, so I simply don't care.

 _No outbursts please_

This should always be true anyway.

 _Give honest feedback_

Be careful. "Honest feedback" is high risk, low reward. There's a good chance
you're leaving because your "honest feedback" has been ignored before. Why
should now be different.

 _Stay in touch_

Pay me to. See "Finish what you have started" above. You're in business. So am
I.

Frankly, if I was inclined to be nice enough to comply with OP's requests, I'd
probably be staying on. Too many employers are in a time warp, creating
situations that force good people to move on and then pretending they never
happened with posts like this. It's too late for this, soon-to-be ex-employer.
Better to just let lame ducks finish their commitment and focus on their
futures.

~~~
sjs382
>> Tell me as early as possible

> Why? So security can show me the door today and I'm unexpectedly without a
> paycheck for weeks? Although OP may not do this, lots of place do. Beware.

This happened to a friend VERY recently, and it changed the way I think about
this. I had always assumed it happens, but I had never met someone who it
happened to.

Myself though, I had previously worked at a 4-person company and gave them
4-weeks notice (the company I was going to was OK with this, and even saw it
as a good thing that I wanted to tie up loose ends and ensure a smooth
transition).

Really, it all depends on the situation. Just make sure you know the
situation.

> Be careful. "Honest feedback" is high risk, low reward. There's a good
> chance you're leaving because your "honest feedback" has been ignored
> before. Why should now be different.

Could you elaborate? I've never understood the risk, except for the
possibility of losing out on a reference (though, you may have allies in the
company would give you a favorable reference anyways)

------
kjackson2012
I agree with all points except one thing: NEVER GIVE HONEST FEEDBACK.

When you are leaving, never, ever give honest feedback. Say everything is
great, and you just wanted a change. Employers say that they want honest
feedback, but they really don't, because the truth hurts.

Case in point, I left a previous company because the founders screwed up a
potential acquisition. I had no confidence in upper managment, and I thought
they were running the company into the ground. I had worked there 3 years and
I gave them honest feedback as to why I was leaving. Not rude, mind you, but I
told them exactly that I was leaving because I felt like upper management
wasn't good enough to run the company, and that I needed to leave because I
was worried there was going to be subsequent layoffs. I ended up being right
on both accounts.

Recently, there was a drastic change in management, and I felt like the
prospects for working for the company had changed, and I thought just for fun
I would re-apply and see if there were any jobs that I would be interested in.
I got only one phone screen, despite applying to a bunch of different areas,
and in the middle of the phone screen, the interviewer had mentioned some of
the things I had said in my exit interview. So it was obvious the exit
interview was added to my employee file, and to some degree, I was
"blacklisted".

I'm fine being blacklisted, I knew the consequences of being honest with my
feedback, and I'm not owed anything, but my point is that there is no benefit
to being honest EVER to your employer. It's much better to simply say
everything was great, and to move on. It's to your advantage to keep all of
your options open, and by giving honest feedback, you are closing out some of
those options. The best you get by giving honest feedback is you get to
temporarily scratch an itch, and you never know when in the future you might
need to play those cards.

~~~
ssharp
In your case, it was wasted effort to give honest feedback but that one case
isn't enough evidence to say "never".

There isn't a right and wrong answer here. Sometimes it's best to give honest
feedback, sometimes it's best to lie or avoid the question. It all depends on
the person asking for feedback and the company's culture. It's never a good
idea to burn bridges and if giving honest feedback cannot happen without
burning a bridge, avoid it.

Additionally, there are probably opportunities to reshape your criticisms in
such a manner to not offend. Some people are naturally good at this and others
are naturally terrible at it. If you're not good at it, it's a fantastic skill
to work on.

~~~
michaelt
We can see there's a potential downside to giving honest feedback - is there
any upside, from the employee's perspective?

~~~
ssharp
The upside is maintaining a good and respectful relationship with your past
employer and/or past boss. Just because you're leaving does not mean you don't
want the company to succeed without you. If the person you're giving feedback
to (assuming the feedback is given thoughtfully and respectfully) is going to
be thankful and receptive to it and it has the potential to do the person and
the company some good, there is value to you.

~~~
greenyoda
Another upside is that your feedback might make things better for your ex co-
workers, some of whom may be your friends. And if the company is afraid enough
of losing more people, they might actually take your feedback seriously.

------
gorbachev
This is the thing.

I've seen many rounds of layoffs in different companies. I've been laid off
once.

None, not one, of the people laid off were "told as early as possible" they
were about to be laid off. Almost all of them were told 2 hours before they
were shown out the door.

I will never tell my employer I'm quitting "as early as possible". I will them
them only after I have the next job contract signed and I know my start date.
And I will tell them at the last possible moment, so that when they escort me
out of the office, as they VERY often do, I will minimize the disruption to my
income.

~~~
lgleason
If the company has a histoy of escorting people out the door you should not
give notice. Everything listed in this article is professional courtesy. If
the employer has earned it then by all means you should treat them
right....there may be other reasons that you are leaving, but they are still
good people. On the other hand if your previous employer treats departing
empolyees poorly then they day you give notice is your last day. That is the
double edged sword of having no employee protections in the US.

------
TallGuyShort
I agree with everything except the first and possibly second points. It's
worth pointing out that just as many employees don't do these things and it is
disrespectful, many employers do not take their equivalent social obligations
seriously. If an employer had a track record of making decisions that impacted
me and only telling me after the fact, I would not trust them to suddenly take
my well-being into account after I decided to leave - and I would make the
decision to leave long before I told them. I would tell my current employer if
I was thinking of leaving and I would change my plans to suit their needs,
because they have always been very transparent with me and taken my career
goals into account when making decisions. Being respectful gets respect in
return.

~~~
dccoolgai
I had pretty much the same reaction... although I disagree with #6, too ("Give
honest feedback in the exit interview"). It's a rookie mistake to use your
exit interview to "get even" or "fix all the broken stuff". Smile and gush, "I
am _so_ lucky to have worked for a brilliant boss like you...in fact, the only
reason I am leaving is I feel the need to share you brilliance with the rest
of the world...it's my mission." it will be the last thing they remember about
you.

~~~
TallGuyShort
Good point. I think any feedback that is constructive enough to share in an
exit interview could / should have been shared while you worked there. You
might have been able to reap the benefits yourself!

------
simon
I'm all for playing nice with your employer ... stayed late on my last day at
previous client because they scheduled an install for the project I was the
technical advisor for that weekend! Yes, really. Sigh. It went well in the
end.

The problem is that my observations of corporate America leave me very cynical
about your requests. After 23 years of seeing the exact opposite behaviour, it
gets harder to believe that the company cares about what you think or feel. I
have learned that when the words and the actions don't sync, you believe the
actions.

Now, HN is likely mostly populated by young hipster developers who work at fun
trendy places where playing nice is appreciated, so I'm just an old dinosaur
roaring off in the distance. I accept that as my role. :-(

~~~
praptak
I'm all for employee self interest. Yet I still think it makes sense to follow
(most of) the article guidelines. Even in companies that treat employees
poorly.

Here's why: it is in your own interest to leave good impression, for the
obvious practical reasons. A hearty _"screw you, idiots!"_ might feel good for
a moment but it won't do any good and ultimately hurts your own interest.
Jerks do not change because of feedback, they might change in response to
people mass quitting.

If you want to get even do it by a) being awesome somewhere else and b)
keeping the bozos unaware of the reasons why people leave in droves.

Yeah, b) contradicts the article - IMHO honest feedback should only be given
to those who can take it and what's even more important, you should only
consider quitting after your feedback falls on deaf ears.

~~~
simon
I completely agree with a default plan of not burning bridges anywhere. But it
is still possible to do that without tipping your hand to the employer.

If the employer needs more than two weeks to be ready for an employee to
leave, then the employer needs to be better organized or they need to ask for
longer resignation timeframes. Of course, the two times I was ever "let go"
(both from re-structuring), I had zero advance notice, so that doesn't seem
very balanced.

------
trustfundbaby
> Tell me as early as possible

Nice in theory, but some employers will walk you out the door as soon as you
tell them you're quitting, so you better have a good idea what kind of company
you're working for before you do this.

> Give honest feedback

this has been beaten to death. Don't do it. Its like breaking up with
somebody, everybody wants to know why you're breaking up with them, until they
actually know then they'll think you're an asshole for telling them. Human
beings are just weird like that.

Stock answer, "its just a better opportunity for this point in my career",
vague enough to make everybody happy.

------
agentultra
I agree with everything except being "friends."

As an employee I am not your friend. I'm leasing you time out of my life to
get your work done. Being polite and amicable is part and parcel of ensuring
that transaction goes smoothly but do not be mistaken: you're not getting an
invitation to dinner and we're not going on a camping trip together. The deal
is in the contract and my obligations end there.

More often than not I tend to go above and beyond the letter of the contract
but I've worked for employers who take it personally when I chose not to. I
don't have the time or patience for such petulant behaviour and let those
bridges burn. My advice to employers is to not get personally invested in your
employees; anything beyond the contract is a bonus and you should never expect
it. The contract is the contract and as long as everyone is doing their part
there's nothing more to it than that.

~~~
akhilrex
Hi agentultra, I run a small team of developers and designers. Though we are 2
yrs old, we are still in the startup mode where we pull all nighters together
and go out for drinks together. Maybe this is the reason i find being friendly
with my colleagues ( i dont like the word employees very much) to be
beneficial. I understand that your feedback comes from experience and
experience is something one cant deny. I too have experienced similar things
when i was working. But this is what is working for me. And I feel that this
can work for most of us. I really appreciate your feedback

~~~
agentultra
Well I was specifically talking about _employee/employer_ relationships. An
employer has a need for a skill that an employee can provide and pays said
employee a salary under some contract. Nothing unusual there.

If you're talking about "colleagues," then I assume everyone involved has
significant first-class equity in the venture. This is a completely different
work dynamic and requires much more care if one tries to leave the
relationship. In such a case even more attention to the details of the
contract is required.

That being said you should reconsider working "all-nighters." Chronic sleep
deprivation has some significant deleterious effects to your mental and
physical health. As my intellect is my money-maker I do everything I can to
preserve and enhance it. One of the easiest things I can do is get a good
night's sleep.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation>

------
ColinWright
Original thread: How do I leave a company?

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4908815>

Found with:
[http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=title%3Alea...](http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=title%3Aleave&sortby=create_ts+desc)

------
sbhere
As an exceptionally loyal employee, I've been released to rejoin the workforce
more times than leaving on my own accord. The first time I got the shaft, I
tried to be courteous, but the employer (Fortune 500 co.) wasn't interested in
feedback or anything other than the bottom line. The second time I was dumped,
I was trying to be a good person and follow all of the author's
recommendations.

IMHO, the linked article is good for an individual leaving a positive
situation with positive experiences and positive opportunities, likely
surrounded by positive people. Many commenters seem to be stating that most
situations are not all win-win situations. Many times employees or employers
are disgruntled at best, angry/fed up/desperate at worst. The article is great
for situations where all is hunky dory; in reality, that's usually not the
case. YMMV

------
CodeMage
"Give honest feedback" is the one that made me laugh out loud. If you, as an
employer, have no idea what made the employee unhappy enough to want to leave,
then you most likely didn't do your homework.

Exceptions exist, of course. For example, maybe you knew beforehand what was
wrong but were either unable or unwilling to change it. Not much to do there,
either.

All in all, "honest feedback" at the end of the relationship is a little too
late.

------
one-man-bucket
When I quit my first job, my former employer made a point of conducting all
exit interviews with someone who was in no way an authority figure for the
person quitting (I did mine with the receptionist).

I was of course very polite, I didn't want to burn any bridges and could still
consider going back there some day, but I also was honest when telling them
that main reason (that was in their control) for me quitting was that there
was no development process (i.e. scrum) and the first thing on their to-do
list should be to hire a good head of development.

They did this a year after I left and from what I've heard they have kept the
rest of my team and even attracted some new talent. Maybe there are cultural
factors at play as well (I'm in Stockholm).

They invited me back later for beers and starcraft 2, so I guess they don't
hate me too much :)

------
chrisbennet
I try to treat employers with the courtesy I would like to be treated with. I
also realize that employers may not alway return the favor. Just because
someone is a jerk to you does not mean that you must be a jerk. In short, act
like a professional even when your employer/client acts unprofessionally.

Here is a solution to the situation where your newly ex'd employer wants to
march you out the door:

 _Arrange with your new employer to start as early as you can when you accept
the job offer._ Most employers I've interviewed with would like you to start
as soon as possible. When they ask "When can you start?" tell them that you
can start no later than 2 weeks but depending on when you can wrap up stuff
with your old employer, you can start earlier.

------
jrogers65
How, then, to reconcile the fact that your employers have taken the lion's
share of the profit you have produced for them? Modern employment is
inherently biased towards business owners. They take the vast majority of the
fruit, they get to build assets as the business grows (unlike employees who
are for the most part paying for liabilities - rent, food, etc), they have
more mechanisms available to evade tax (again, since they can afford them).

If you want your employees to be nice to you, stop shafting them at every
turn. If somebody works somewhere, then a fair percentage of the business
should be owned by them. Level the playing field and there will be no need for
articles such as these.

~~~
lotsofpulp
I don't see what the parent post has to do with OP's blog post, but in any
case, employers take the lion's share of the profit because they took the
lion's share of the risk. If you don't like the deal, then walk away and find
another employer.

Also, if you are worth it, the employer will share the profit with you, AKA
equity, stock options, profit sharing, performance bonuses, etc.

~~~
jrogers65
The thing it has to do with OP's blog post, in my opinion, is that it
addresses some of the root causes of the irriation that an employer may face
from his (now former) employees.

------
ProblemFactory
Does anyone have comments or thoughts on point #4: "complete the paperwork"?

Obviously, it makes sense to formally quit, and finish any tax and payment
related papers. But is there a good reason why the employer should request
signing any other lengthy contracts at termination? "Our legal department told
us to" is the worst kind of argument - lawyers typically push to protect
whoever is paying them from anything possible, not to clear up things in a
balanced and reasonable manner. And if the employee is leaving, there should
not be any loose ends that require additional contracts.

------
sheri
I quit my job a few years back. The HR exit interview was all but a joke. I
quit on good terms, but was prepared to give some feedback on how things were
in my team/organization etc. The lady was not interested in anything I had to
say. She asked no follow up questions, or never noted anything down. She just
nodded and it seemed like she just wanted to tick the box to complete the HR
procedures. So after a while I just stopped talking and figured we'd get this
over with. I think if employers want honest feedback, just implementing an HR
procedure doesn't cut it.

~~~
akhilrex
Hi Sheri, Even though we are now 2 yrs old, we still consider us as starups
and as startups go improvement is the key to survival. I wrote this post as a
concerned employer who want to make sure that those who work with him are
happy and if and when they go, they leave with a smile. I know it is hard to
keep everyone happy but one must try.

------
swanson
The referenced AskHN thread: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4908815>

------
twelvechairs
There are a few very high expectations of employees here.

(note: I'm not US based)

"Tell me as early as possible" - most of the time you'll get exactly the
amount of time that is contractually obliged. If you want more, write it in
the contract. Employees want their own flexibility and few people want to
stick around after they have pretty much told their employer "I don't want to
be here". Most employers don't like people hanging around either (they are
likely to start encouraging others to leave too).

"Give honest feedback" - Its incredibly hard to phrase feedback (in a
constructive way) without directly referring to people as the source (which
nobody wants to do - burning bridges and all). If an employee finds a way to
do this for you, it is pretty exceptional. If you are lucky, you might, after
asking some pointed questions, get some short outbursts of "I don't like being
managed by person X" or "company process Y pains me", and you'll have to do
the hard work of figuring out what it means. Thats if you are lucky. Most of
the time people will just rather not say anything at all.

~~~
jmj42
Actually, I found both of those suggestions to be perfectly reasonable. I try
to shoot for 4 weeks when giving notice. If my employer doesn't want me
hanging around that long, see point 3. Note: I've never been contractually
obligated to give any notice.

As for feed back, the fact is, you're leaving for a reason. You're, so to be,
former employer really is, generally, interested in the reasons for your
decision. Especially if it's "I don't like being managed by person X."
Sometimes it's just an isolated personality conflict, often, though, there's
bigger issues and your employeer isn't interested in loosing more good
employees due to poor management.

I've also been in a situation where one of the reasons was "I don't like being
managed by person X," and conveying that in a polite, non-judgmental, way
wasn't difficult. While my exit interview was with that manager, I also
requested a meeting with the CEO (small startup, so it really just a matter of
"Hey, <CEO>, can we do a one-on-one before I leave).

In fact, I would argue that the most important point on this list is the one
about feedback.

------
Peroni
Never burn your bridges. I couldn't care less if your boss is an ass and
treats you like dirt. Rise above it and remember you're leaving and won't have
to tolerate him/her for long. You never know when you may need to use that
bridge again.

~~~
MrFoof
>Never burn your bridges.

I disagree. There absolutely exists not only a time to burn bridges, but to
nuke them from orbit -- _just to make sure_.

Sorry, but I've seen people go through some toxic employment situations (i.e.
breach of contract, health and safety violations, discrimination), and
sometimes there is absolute merit in ensuring that you'll never have to deal
with certain individuals again while still going about it in a professional
manner (i.e. hiring a lawyer). It's a harsh measure, but it's also guaranteed
to get the desired result.

Moreover, there are a number of situations where the bridge is often burnt by
default, no matter how pleasant you try to be in the situation. Usually when a
lawyer becomes involved, the bridge is often immediately burnt.

------
espinchi
_Last week there was a very nice “Ask HN” on Hacker News where the person
asking had stated that he had decided to move on to a new job and to do that
had to quit his job_

Could anyone post the link to that _Ask HN_ post the OP mentions? I can't find
it, but I'm interested in reading the discussion.

~~~
ColinWright
See: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4932755>

Actual link: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4908815>

