
New iPhones might be forced to have a removable battery - jonbaer
https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/all-new-iphones-might-be-forced-to-have-a-removable-battery
======
alkonaut
They _are_ replacable. It’s _cheap_ to replace them. They just don’t have a
user accessible hatch.

I wouldn’t want to have a battery hatch and perhaps worse water sealing, just
so I could change a battery myself instead of paying $20 for it _once in the
lifetime of a phone that is maybe $500 to $1500 to buy_!

Sure if it came at no cost in terms of size, weight, price, waterproofing etc
then sure. But otherwise I’d rather just pay the cheap replacement once after
2-3 years.

If people throw away their phones because the battery has gone bad, I think
it’s because they think it’ll be expensive or impossible to change it.

~~~
hamaluik
I just replaced the battery in my iPhone a couple months ago. I ended up
paying Apple over $300 because the glass on the bezel had a small crack on it
and they wouldn’t touch it unless I replaced the entire screen too. It’s not
“just $20” to replace an iPhone battery.

~~~
alkonaut
Apple might be stingy about conditions vs warranties (understandably). But you
can always go to a third party. Your warranty isn't much good anyway if you
have damaged it I'd assume.

I meant the work portion of the cost, (at a third party if required e.g.
because apple don't want to touch it) is probably around €20.

~~~
HeWhoLurksLate
Honestly surprised that Louis Rossman hasn't been mentioned yet. If you need
an iDevice repaired, he's a good guy to handle them, and some of your proceeds
will likely be spent fighting for right to repair legislation.

------
diego
If having a user-removable battery makes my phone not water resistant, then I
don't want that. I have never had an issue with an iPhone battery. As things
are, the battery is replaceable by any skilled technician so the cost of
having it done is low. Perhaps they could enforce a standard battery form
factor, if that.

~~~
lousken
What are you doing with your phone? My phones were never water resistant but
they survived humid rooms, wet hands and rain just fine

~~~
swampthinker
Won't lie, I love watching videos or listening to podcasts in the shower.

~~~
agumonkey
And grabbing them back from the loo

------
filleokus
Are there "even" any examples of Android phones with user replaceable
batteries that are comparable to current iPhones. I.e, with same/similar IP-
ratings, similar battery capacity, similar ish power consumption, similar
weight/thickness, similar screen size etc.

I think a smarter legislative move would be to enforce cost and accessibility
measures for replacements, then manufactures could decide on the trade-off
between design and cost.

E.g if EU said that all (new) phones could have their battery replaced for
30€/3% of purchase price/something else, within $arbitrary days, Apple could
do that instead of making their phones (in my view) worse, while lower-end
Android vendors without service infrastructure could make their phones thicker
or less waterproof with an old school battery.

~~~
GuB-42
There are no high end phones with removable batteries.

Today, the closest would the new Samsung Galaxy XCover Pro, but they it is in
a completely different market. The iPhone is a high end consumer product while
the XCover Pro is a mid range rugged smartphone.

For a more relevant comparison, we have to go back to the Galaxy S5 (2014). It
was a flagship and IMHO, a very good one. It had a removable battery, IP67
rating, and was on par with iPhones specs-wise. The main downside was its
look, and it is probably the reason why Samsung switched to an all glass
design.

------
scarface74
So if the EU is so worried about planned obsolescence, are they going to force
Android OEMs to match Apple’s support when it comes to iOS upgrades on older
phones and security patches on even older phones?

The iPhone 6S released in 2015 is still running the latest version of iOS. I
can replace the battery and still get a fully supported phone.

~~~
olliej
Right?

The fact that Apple releasing new phones every year is considered “planned
obsolescence”, when they’re still providing support for them 5 years down the
road, for free, when android phones are shipped without even the current OS
let alone _any_ updates is absurd.

Are they also going to do something about planned obsolescence in cars? New
models of those are released every year, they stop getting free service after
a year...

~~~
scarface74
Actually it’s longer, not only does the latest iOS run on the 2015 iPhone 6S,
Apple released an update to fix some bugs July of last year to devices that go
back to the 2011 iPhone 4s.

Maybe this is yet another example of why it’s crazy to want government
intervention of tech when politicians don’t understand the issues.

------
sytelus
While I fully support right to repair, hack and alter - I really think this is
design decision that should be owned by designers and not politicians. There
are N number of devices without removable batteries and there are M reasons
why designer might not want them. Politicians should just ensure that
manufacturers must respect the right of customer to open the device and alter
it in anyway they see fit.

~~~
supercanuck
design decisions come from marketing, not designers. Replaceable batteries are
as much a business/product strategy decision as it is a design decision.

------
gojomo
I wish people who want to design iPhones would apply for jobs with Apple,
supplying a design portfolio showing relevant competence, like normal sane &
polite people – instead of attempting to use state power to impose their
product preferences on others.

------
xenadu02
A user-removable battery imposes a significant cost. As devices get smaller
the cost is correspondingly higher. Adding a compartment means extra weight to
strengthen the device. Plus a cover strong enough to keep out water.

Then the battery itself needs to be encased to protect it, lest putting it in
your pocket causes a key puncture that sets your pants on fire.

Those costs are mostly fixed and would be a larger proportion of the overall
thickness and weight in a modern phone.

It also means you can't use a split battery, L-shapes battery, or exploit any
other spatial dimensions to pack in more battery... at least not to the same
degree.

Is having half the battery life, or a phone 60% thicker worth it?

------
newscracker
I don’t really want a user removable battery and make it less water proof. The
devices are pretty good and last several years if the batteries are well taken
care of. I’m also fine with Apple replacing the batteries with its own
certified batteries where I don’t have to worry (much) about the quality or
longevity or even stability of the power source.

The bigger issue with all lithium batteries on devices is that even third
party replacements are available only for a limited number of years. I’d
rather have Apple and similar companies be forced to provide paid battery
replacements for longer than their self-defined device obsolescence cycles
(which are quite short for phones, tablets, and even for laptops). That’s how
you can make sure that devices remain (kinda) usable for the long term, even
if they’re handed down to someone else.

If Apple is indeed forced to do something, I’d rather have a better way to
load apps outside of the App Store and increase competition for Apple.

------
badrabbit
Please keep in mind E911 "pinging" is being abused and even being sold as a
service. There have been malware that turn off the screen when you hit power
and simulate a shutdown/startup routine. So long as the battery is plugged in
a mobile phone, regardless of the OS, is a device that can be used to listen
in on conversations,record video,location data and much more from
gyroscope,accelerometer,wifi and more.

Please don't say to yourself that you would never care. If you don't care for
others who have a legitimate need to fear for this then don't you complain a
word when they come for you and you are forcibly put in a situation where
either the authorities or someone with money is using your phones against you.

I hope all countries that call themselves free pass legislature to force user
accesible battery removal or hardware kill switches.

------
maerF0x0
Five eyes wont like it to be so easy to disable your tracking device. Removing
the battery or other kinds of signal blocking is the only way to know it's off
/ not transmitting

~~~
gruez
or just... don't bring your phone with you?

~~~
maerF0x0
Possible for short periods, but unreasonable for all of life. Also privacy is
a right and I shouldnt have to discontinue the legal use of something in order
to avoid tracking.

Some people's job requires them to have a phone on them, should they have to
choose between a job and privacy?

~~~
gruez
>Some people's job requires them to have a phone on them, should they have to
choose between a job and privacy?

How would being able to take out the battery help? I don't think your boss
would be pleased if you were on-call and your work phone's batteries were
taken out.

------
paulus_magnus2
I can't shake off the thought half of the comments defending Apple are written
by people working at/for Apple. Or earning 300k+

1 - 2 hours are required
[https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+11+Battery+Replacement/1...](https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+11+Battery+Replacement/127450)
That's 2 hours of a technician + 2 houurs + driving there/back.

115,00€ [https://www.ifixers.be/en/repair/smartphone/apple/iphone-
xr](https://www.ifixers.be/en/repair/smartphone/apple/iphone-xr)

105,00€
[https://www.ifixers.be/en/repair/smartphone/apple/iphone-8-0](https://www.ifixers.be/en/repair/smartphone/apple/iphone-8-0)

For newer models battery replacement is not even offered.

Samsung is not any better at €95
[https://www.ifixers.be/en/repair/smartphone/samsung/galaxy-n...](https://www.ifixers.be/en/repair/smartphone/samsung/galaxy-
note-9-sm-n960)

Cheaper at the original store
[https://www.samsung.com/be/reparatie/mobile/](https://www.samsung.com/be/reparatie/mobile/)

With Note 4 battery replacement took 10s and involved popping the plastick
back off the phone.

Tangentially, changing a H7 lightbulb in my Ford involves taking out the front
harness and the whole reflector - meaning light realignmen at the shop is
needed. Replacing the car battery is even worse, cant imagine doing it myself.
At some point some manager must have invented a user story "as a user I want
to spend €500 in car service to change the battery instead of the usual €0".

~~~
alkonaut
An original battery change (at an apple store) in expensive Sweden is €77 and
that's for the new/more expensive models. Previous models are even cheaper
than that. Buying an original apple iphone 11 battery is almost that much for
the battery alone (if you can find one). Quick googling shows they are around
€70 though it's hard to say how "original" a battery really is online.

So you really aren't paying much for the replacement work itself and that's
what matters. One needs to factor the _battery cost_ out of the cost of
_battery+replacement_ to discuss the benefit of user replacement. You can buy
third party batteries for as low as €30 for some models and you then have to
replace it or find someone to do it. No matter how you do, you'll likely never
be paying more than say €30 for the replacement (work). and this replacement
service is something that is needed either zero times or _once_ for a product
that costs around €1000 new.

(Edit: original replacement by apple is €55 or €75 in Belgium too - same
prices everywhere effectively) [https://support.apple.com/nl-
be/iphone/repair/service/batter...](https://support.apple.com/nl-
be/iphone/repair/service/battery-power))

------
mensetmanusman
Easily removable battery equals no water proofing. Would be an interesting
study to see which is a more environmentally friendly solution.

------
epanchin
Apple don’t sell spare parts to consumers, so what use is a removable battery
going to be vs the current system?

------
agumonkey
Lets give apple something to flex their muscles on. I'm sure they can spin
this positively too.

------
istorical
Hope so, planned obsolescence is morally wrong for a company making world
record profits.

~~~
skinnymuch
Is it not morally wrong for non-Apple or non-Apple/Google companies?

~~~
belltaco
Tricky question. As an extreme example, Is it as morally wrong for a homeless
mother to steal baby food from a convenience to feed her starving baby vs a
rich kid stealing from a store to impress his friends?

~~~
skinnymuch
That’s a wide difference. The other phone companies aren’t equivalent to a
homeless mother wanting to feed her baby. Or any one who is homeless.

If you had done something of a middle class vs rich person. Or a homeless vs
in debt and barely living paycheck to paycheck person then those would make
more sense. And in those cases. The morals are close to the same for both
scenarios.

------
acd
Sounds like a good idea for the environment

~~~
donarb
People replacing their own batteries will most likely throw them in the
garbage. Not really good for the environment.

~~~
nolok
By that weird logic, better their battery than their entire phone battery
included.

In France any store selling electronic products is mandated by law to accept
your used batteries and electronics, and I'm sure most of europe has a similar
thing. So this is neither better or worse in any way on that front.

~~~
baylisscg
Yeah, its the EU Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Directive. For any
item covered by it made after 2005 it's the producer or distributor's
responsibility to recycle it.

------
ryanlol
The battery is removable, you just need a screwdriver.

This seems like a bad thing, any changes to make battery replacements
significantly easier will almost certainly come at a significant cost. And in
any case, it’s already really easy to replace the battery if you can get your
hands on one.

~~~
mtmail
This guide suggests 44 steps.
[https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+11+Battery+Replacement/1...](https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+11+Battery+Replacement/127450)
I think one could use a/the screwdriver as opener or instead of the tweezers
lately but replacing the battery is not something everybody can do. Compared
to how easy it was 10 years ago to swap a battery.

~~~
alkonaut
Everybody who buys a $500-1500 phone can pay $20 at a corner shop to change a
battery. A battery hatch to make it completely "end user replacable" won't
make any difference.

~~~
petecox
At least here in Australia, corner shops doing repairs are a dying breed -
there's no money in it once you factor in rent and electricity and wages. An
online search replacing a popular Samsung was $AU99.

My current 3 year old phone is also a dying breed where when the time comes, I
can buy a genuine Moto battery for $AU16 delivered and replace it myself in
under 30 seconds.

------
adrr
Instead of forcing companies to make removable batteries. Slap on a 20% tax to
companies that have batteries that don't retain 80% charge after 4 years. If
the device is to new to have real world testing, company can forgo the tax by
allowing free battery changes for 4 years.

~~~
cududa
“Tax companies unless they break the laws of physics”

~~~
adrr
Batteries retaining 80% capacity after 4 years of use is defying the law of
physics? I am pretty sure battery longevity isn't constrained by physics.
Lithium batteries in the Tesla last more cycles than the ones in your phone.
Why because, Tesla warranties the battery for 8 years. Cell phone
manufacturers just need the battery to last 1 year so they don't care.

And for people who downvote me, the reason we removed mercury/cadmium from
batteries was during 90s government threatened to heavily tax batteries. Car
industry in EU is also heavily influenced by penalties around gas mileage.

~~~
kitsunesoba
The difference is that Teslas are much much larger than a phone which gives
ample room for advanced cooling systems which prevent the heat buildup that
kills lithium ion batteries.

The only way to get a similar number of cycles with a phone battery would be
to put a large heat sink and possibly a fan on the phone’s SoC and battery or
to permanently throttle the SoC so that it never gets hot, even when all cores
are maxed out. Essentially, the choice would be a brick-like phone or a phone
that runs like it‘s a decade old. Neither seems like the sort of compromise
consumers outside of a small niche would buy.

Of course in the future we may see battery chemistries that aren’t so
sensitive to heat, but no such battery is on the market currently.

