
Greeks are abandoning cigarettes in record numbers - kawera
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/20/subversive-greeks-stub-out-cigarette-habit
======
mabbo
The only measure that has ever been shown to work to reduce smoking is to make
smoking less affordable. Tax cigarettes and people smoke less. Tax them highly
and kids sure can't afford them.

It's more politically easy to put money into paying celebrities to beg kids
not to smoke, but it's not actually effective. It's just theater so
politicians can say they tried.

Here, Greece is seeing the affordability fall just because the affordability
of everything is falling for them. The result is the same.

~~~
dmix
> The only measure that has ever been shown to work to reduce smoking is to
> make smoking less affordable.

[citation needed]

I grew up with plenty of poor high school kids who had no problem finding
cigarettes even when the taxes were jacked up on them here in Canada. I know
many of them as adults who continued to smoke even as the price has continued
to climb over the last 10yrs.

I've never heard anyone say they quit smoking because it was too expensive. It
was merely a perk of quitting. Especially considering it's always been an
irrational and escapist habit.

I also smoked for years and I can't imagine the price being $5 vs $11 would
have had any effect on my decision. High prices via taxes was merely an
additional burden, a burden usually placed on people who are in the most need
of money.

The only two major change I've seen in recent years pushing people off
cigarettes is a) it's no longer cool and b) e-cigarettes

~~~
kjksf
Citation:

"Most studies found that raising cigarette prices through increased taxes is a
highly effective measure for reducing smoking among youth, young adults, and
persons of low socioeconomic status"

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3228562/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3228562/)

~~~
walshemj
Only works for countries that don't have a large "black" economy and HMRC
spends a lot of effort tracking down smuggled tobacco - normally sold in the
back bar of the less salubrious pubs.

~~~
copper_think
Her Majesty's Revenue Collector ?

~~~
twic
Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. Roughly speaking, revenue being taxes on
what you earn, and customs being taxes on what you buy.

There used to be separate departments for each, but they were merged years
ago. This was a slightly odd move, as the revenue were people who were good at
doing very detailed analysis of paper trails, whereas customs were people who
were good at kicking down smugglers' doors.

~~~
codefined
Isn't that a logical move? Allow a single department to both gather and act on
the information, rather than disparate departments that have to try to work
together?

------
HenryBemis
Knowing Greeks, they are definitely not "abandoning cigarettes in record
numbers". Some do quit smoking, as it is pretty expensive and 70% or the
cigarettes price is taxes. But most turn to black-market cigarettes and
tobacco.

~~~
seliopou
The findings are not based on economic statistics, such as tax revenue.
Rather, it's based on a health survey conducted by eurostat, as indicated by
this link from the article:

[http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
explained/index.php/...](http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
explained/index.php/Tobacco_consumption_statistics#Daily_smokers_of_cigarettes)

------
theparanoid
The missing data point is how many Greeks have switched to vaping.

~~~
Iwan-Zotow
No, the missing data point is ciggies contraband

~~~
icebraining
That would be true if they were measuring sales numbers, but they're asking
people if they smoke, which includes those who smoke contraband cigarettes.

~~~
walshemj
"oh yes I buy smuggled goods" said no one ever to a formal survey.

~~~
icebraining
Why would you have to say where you get them at all? It's not like they were
asking about an illegal drug. What would be the point of lying about whether
you smoke?

------
phant0mas
I am from Greece and everywhere I go everyone is smoking. Where do they get
this data?

~~~
icebraining
Their data still says that more than 1 in 4 Greeks smoke, so it's not
surprising that you see it everywhere. It's just that it's no longer more than
1 in 3.

------
elorant
The one thing the article fails to mention is that electronic cigarette usage
in Greece has skyrocketed the last years. E-cigarette shops are popping
everywhere, I know at least four in a mile radius from where I live.

And while cigarette taxes have raised considerably, the prices aren't that
high because many people smoke tobacco which costs around 7,5 euro for a pack
of 30 grams that lasts for days.

------
nvus
I believe other factors are at play, neither the anti-smoking campaigns or the
affordability of the cigarettes is representing the data. A mixture of
contraband, alternatives and other factors are at play, unfortunately Greece
is going to battle cigs for a long time unless drastic measures are taken.

------
zerostar07
Vaping comes to mind as a recent factor , but other than that i don't see any
drastic change. Yes people are very gradually abandoning it, young people
don't smoke, but people are not quitting smoking. Everyone i know under 50 who
has quit at some point is back at it again 1-2 years later. There was an
attempt to ban smoking in public spaces years ago, but it didnt last long and
if anything the situation is worse now. I'm not sure if they 've controlled
correctly in their study.

------
hokus
I always call this quiting the natural way (cant afford it)

While it is a joke I did see plenty of people turn financial "freedom" into
their personal hell of drugs and/or gambling.

The weirdest example was an extremely hard working self-employed construction
worker with a large variety of skills. The most happy period in his life (from
my perspective) was when he lived on a camping in a tiny tent with a budget of
5 euro per day. All he did was eat fruit, lift weights, sit in the sun and
chat with the camping folk.

At a different times he had 20 employees. Every day he smoked 2 packs of
cigarettes, 5 grams of weed and god knows how much cocaine. But that was
during work. He spend all of his free time gazing at slot machines. At the
time he also never showed up for appointments if they didn't involve large
amounts of money. He owed everyone money that he could easily pay but just
didn't show up to do. Great way to lose friends, borrow as much as you can
then pretend it isn't important enough to pay them back.

------
hugh4life
I would like to see one country go all in vaping(and snus) and completely ban
cigarettes.

~~~
TillE
I'm honestly surprised that vaping hasn't naturally killed off cigarettes
already. I suspect it will eventually. You get to consume nicotine while
eliminating maybe 95% of the downsides of smoking tobacco. Plus it's usually a
lot cheaper.

~~~
pandaman
Some people believe that people are actually addicted to MAOIs in tobacco
smoke (though this does not explain dipping) but I think the issue is that the
literal "e-cigarettes" (small units, which look like a cigarette) you can buy
everywhere are neither good enough sources of nicotine, nor convenience.

Advanced vaporizers, which could successfully substitute cigarettes are even
less convenient: replacement coils are not standardized, firmware is buggy,
juice is leaking, settings are confusing etc. It's not rocket science but
enough of a barrier for most people as it seems. E.g. my vaping setup is: a
mechanical vaporizer (so no firmware issues), a charger and a set of 18650 IMR
cells (you have to buy them online since they are not intended for sale to
consumers), an atomizer building deck (an ohm-meter + power source to burn
coils outside the vaporizer), all kinds of heating wire, tools to work with
the wire, wick, juice. Compare to a cigarette smoking: cigarettes, lighter,
ashtray (if you lucky to be able to smoke inside), all available everywhere
and you can get by just with the cigarettes.

~~~
hokus
so we are addicted to dopamine inhibitor inhibitors?

~~~
pandaman
I cannot tell you since I do not study the subject but if smoking was just an
addiction to nicotine then I'd expect nicotine gum and patches to be a really
effective cure for it.

------
beagle3
I wonder how well this matches Murphy & Becker's theory of Rational
Addiction[0]; AFAIK it properly predicted the change in smoker percentage as a
function of price (but not the percentage of drug users)

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_addiction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_addiction)

------
appdrag
When you have to choose between food on the table and cigarettes in the
pocket... I guess it's easy to quit smoking...

~~~
DoreenMichele
One reason so many homeless people smoke: it suppresses the appetite, making
it easier to cope with being underfed. Sometimes when people stop smoking and
gain weight because of it, they really wrestle with the question of whether or
not it is worth it. I have had women tell me that the hardest part of quitting
was watching their weight go up. It made it really hard to stay the course
because women are given so much hell in the US about how important it is to be
thin.

------
thriftwy
On the hypothesis that smoking was covering some kind of need in smokers,
what's replacing smoking? What is that need and what's covering it now?

~~~
0xcde4c3db
When the US went through the same thing, it superficially seemed like
cigarettes were largely replaced by caffeine, particularly in the form of
"energy drinks" like Red Bull and 5-Hour Energy. It's possible that this is
just a coincidence, though.

As to what specifically the need might be, there's a good bit of
circumstantial evidence to suggest that nicotine relieves or compensates for
some symptoms of schizophrenia, ADHD, and related disorders.

------
gumby
All the graffiti in the photo accompanying the article is in the Latin
alphabet. What gives?

~~~
zerostar07
Most of the calligraphic/artistic graffiti is in english. Only plain writing
and some football team names are written in greek.

------
hokus
People fail to see how stupid it is to punish smokers with taxes. It would be
a wonderful formula if we all made the same amount of money.

When financial life is total shit one might be depressed to the point that
giving up smoking is impossible.

Likewise, if one has a lot of money in the bank a pack of smokes would have to
cost something like 1000 Euro before one would start to notice it. Some could
even afford 30 k per month without giving it a second thought.

As a smoker I see only one viable solution.

1) Remove all cigarettes from the stores.

2) Have doctors do regular blood tests to prescribe the desired amount of
tobacco and/or chewing gum. No brands, just one size fits all. No added lead,
tar, chlorine etc etc

3) make a time released mechanism to get at each cigarette.

4) Gradually reduce the amount of tobacco served.

5) If the patient fails to reduce his intake he has to make an appointment
with the doctor. Regular blood tests will show his current intake so that the
doctor can re-adjust his ration to the state of the habit.

6) If step 5 fails repeatedly there can be a kind of hospitalization (read
prison) where one isn't allowed to smoke at all for 2 weeks.

I think I smoke 15 cigarettes per day.

My doctor would prescribe me 105 this week in 7 time locked boxes and another
105 next week.

2 weeks seems enough to get the added stress from the rationing figured out.

After 2 weeks he would only prescribe 98 in 7 boxes of 14. This wouldn't
bother me at all.

In week 5 and 6 there would be only 13 per day left.

At that point I would have to seriously start considering which to skip. Maybe
the one with the coffee right after waking up can be delayed for an hour?

Week 7 and 8 there would be 12.

I might save one for bed time in stead of just lighting them up at every idle
moment of the day.

A most interesting effect starts kicking roughly at this point: Other people
cant have one.

9, 10 = 11

11,12 = 10

13,14 = 9

15,16 = 8

17,18 = 7

19,20 = 6

21,22 = 5

23,24 = 4

25,26 = 3

27,28 = 2

29,30 = 1

30,31 = 1 every 2 days

32,33 = 1 every 3 days

34,35 = 1 every 4 days

36,37 = 1 every 5 days

38,39 = 1 every 6 days

40,41 = 1 every week

42 = ur cured bro!

Blood tests continue however!

3 months no nicotine = you get 1000 euro

6 months no nicotine = you get 3000 euro

1 year no nicotine = you get 5000 euro

Fail to show up for the tests or start smoking again: A fine of 1 month salary
and back to step 2.

People who never smoked will get the same reward.

The money isn't an issue as smokers have paid crazy amounts of tax over the
last few years.

So far it was not like a road tax to pay for roads it was a troll tax simply
to take your money away. If it is such a great idea we could easily slap a
similar 500% troll tax on 90% of the food for not being the most nutritious
choice.

Not getting enough exercise? A flat tax of 500 Euro per month seems a great
way to cure you? no?

Overweight? woah! that will be another 300.

An exponential tax for drinking also seems great?

We could even prescribe push ups or other exercises and monitor you at home.
Imagine the tax money to be made!

Then we could all band together and hate on fat people the way we troll
smokers.

I mean, are we talking about some sadist fetish or is it really all because
people care so much about the smokers health?

At my job all but one guy smoke, our coffee room is never used by anyone. We
all stand outside the building. There is no one else there, no one can see us
(LOL!) and we bring an ashtray. Now someone decided that we cant smoke on
company terrain anymore. We have to walk 200 meters and stand outside the
fence - but not in a way customers would notice us.

This is not because they care so much, it is to cater to the hysteria from
anti-smoking sadists. People who've made it their business to meddle in other
peoples lives because they can. Their hysterical screaming YOU CANT SMOKE
HERE! doesn't at all suggest they ohhh care sohhh much about my health.

~~~
brokenmachine
I couldn't care less about smokers health. I just want to breathe fresh air
that isn't toxic and doesn't smell horrible so I wish you would go more than
200 meters away, or preferably smoked yourself to death far away from me.

------
Hasz
I have an intense personal dislike of smoking. If more people are really
moving off them, all the better.

From the intrusion on others (second hand smoke) to the cancer, to the litter,
there is absolutely nothing positive about cigarettes. I'm no fan of vaping,
but as an intermediate step to the elimination of smoking, it is a necessary
evil.

I would be very happy if cigarettes vanished from the world.

~~~
trevyn
> _there is absolutely nothing positive about cigarettes._

This is a silly statement. People smoke for many legitimate reasons beyond
having an active addiction.

~~~
matte_black
Like what? I also see nothing positive about cigarettes.

~~~
thatcat
Nicotine can act as an antidepressant/antipsychotic; cigarettes are a cheap,
widely available form that requires no additional equiptment except a lighter.

~~~
DanBC
People with psychosis tend to die 20 years earlier than the general
population. One of the reason is that people with some types of psychosis
smoke a lot. They smoke more cigarettes, and smoke them more deeply, than they
general population.

If they're medicated the hydrocarbons in burnt tobacco interact with
antipsychotic medication, making it less effective, meaning they need more
meds. And antipsychotic meds can be pretty nasty.

[https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg178](https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg178)

> In March 2014, a correction was made to the wording of recommendation
> 1.1.3.3 to clarify that it is the hydrocarbons in cigarette smoke that cause
> interactions with other drugs, rather than nicotine.

What people with psychosis need is early intervention that addresses the full
range of bio-psycho-social needs the person has.

~~~
tmnvix
> People with psychosis tend to die 20 years earlier than the general
> population. One of the reason is that people with some types of psychosis
> smoke a lot.

Is this a significant reason relative to suicide amongst psychotics?

~~~
DanBC
Yes.

In England about 4,500 deaths by suicide per year. There are about 55million
people in the UK, and about 1% of them have psychosis, so there are roughly
550000 people with psychosis.

The deaths by suicide, while both tragic and preventable, don't change the
average lifespan much.

It's the heart attacks and strokes and diabetes that are the biggest effect on
lifespan.

------
baumbart
I would never want to become a business partner with someone who is smoking
cigarettes. Why? For me it indicates a lack of intelligence, not being good at
dealing with stress and bad long-term thinking. When smoking cigarettes you
are paying twice - first when spending money in order to ruin your health, and
many years later when you are spending money on health-care in order to fix
your ruined health. The Greeks have understood this.

Also, when you are getting closer to an emergency situation than we are
normally today, you will also start caring more about your health
automatically. That's what evolution has taught us, it is natural behavior.
Modern luxury has let us care less about our bodies than we should.

~~~
Rebelgecko
Do you feel the same way about having a business partner that drinks alcohol
or is overweight?

~~~
matwood
> that drinks alcohol

I haven't really thought about whether I would be a business partner with
someone, but in this case quantity certainly matters. When people say smoker,
it is implied someone who smokes often and constantly throughout the day -
24/7\. The equivalent drinker would be an alcoholic, not just someone who has
a beer on Friday.

~~~
rubber_duck
1) "social smoking" is a thing just like social drinking

2) alcoholism has much worse direct consequences than heavy smoking

