
Lithium-ion batteries from Amazon are exploding - pjc50
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/04/lithium-ion-batteries-amazon-are-exploding/587005/
======
astura
>In a statement, an Amazon spokesperson said, “Safety is important to Amazon
and we want customers to shop with confidence on our stores. Third-party
sellers are required to comply with all relevant laws and regulations when
listing items for sale in our stores. When sellers don’t comply with our
terms, we work quickly to take action on behalf of customers.”

>Amazon often doesn’t own or even touch the products bought and sold on its
site—so in Amazon’s view, it’s not liable for defective products. In its
response to David Jarrett’s legal complaint, the company said in a court
filing that his alleged injuries “were caused by acts or omissions of third-
persons or entities over which Amazon has no control.”

Is it just me or are those completely contradictory? Both of those statements
can't be true. You can't both reassure customers of the quality and safety of
items sold on your platform AND say you have "no control" of your platform.

~~~
organsnyder
They're not quite contradictory: notice that Amazon doesn't claim that they
_actively look for offenders_ ; just that once they become aware of them,
they'll take action. Though I'd argue that their "Safety is important"
language is indeed bullshit.

I've been shifting my buying away from Amazon toward smaller niche retailers
that actually manage their own inventory. When I do opt for a free-for-all
marketplace, I've found eBay to have a much more trustworthy reputation
system.

~~~
abfan1127
which retailers have you found?

~~~
function_seven
For lithium-ion batteries specifically, the /r/electronic_cigarette subreddit
has a great list of reputable vendors in their wiki.

    
    
        www.imrbatteries.com  
        liionwholesale.com  
        batterybro.com  
        www.illumn.com  
        www.orbtronic.com  
        www.rtdvapor.com  
        www.akkuteile.de  
        ecoluxshopdirect.co.uk  
        www.nkon.nl
    

For many other niches, finding an active subreddit is a good way to find
reputable vendors in that space.

E-cig users are especially vulnerable to counterfeit lithium-ion cells. For
one, we tend to draw way more current from them than most other consumer
electronics devices. Two, the batteries are in our face or pocket all the
time.

------
cannonedhamster
The very quick decline in quality of Amazon products has led me to start
shopping elsewhere. I don't spend an insignificant amount at Amazon. I'm sure
I'm not the only one who's done this. When I can buy higher quality goods from
my local dollar store or cheaper Chinese stuff directly from AliExpress with
better service and quality, what's Amazon's benefit? It doesn't matter how
fast something arrives if it costs me my health, home, or breaks within a
single use.

~~~
pathartl
I'm starting to be on the same boat, though not necessarily for the same
reasons. Amazon Basics is still pretty strong... it's when you get to third
party stuff that it becomes a real minefield.

The amount of third party sellers re-using listings for multiple products to
pad their reviews is honestly astonishing. Searching for a lightning to 3.5mm
jack leads to this as the #2 result:

[https://www.amazon.com/Earphone-Charging-Headphone-
Splitter-...](https://www.amazon.com/Earphone-Charging-Headphone-Splitter-
Compatible/dp/B07QSQ2PFR)

Not only does this not work (as discovered by my SO), but all of the reviews
for it are for phone cases, utility knives, etc. In the past month or two,
this has been happening WAY too often. It's gotten to the point, like you've
said, where AliExpress has become more reliable. That seems insane to me.

~~~
ChickeNES
eBay has a similar issue where sellers list, in the same listing, a high price
item (eg a 3D printer) along with a low price item (a roll of filament). So
then when you search for a certain keyword and search by price you'll see
those listings gaming the system first

~~~
paulmd
I have started using minimum prices on my queries to filter this out. List an
item for $1-499, you're no longer in my results.

(I would really just like a way to filter out multiple-product listings
entirely. The only valid use-case is like, multiple colors or something. 99%
of the time they're used to game search results and the prices are almost
never good enough to be worth manually sorting through 200 identical listings
vs just filtering them out entirely. But at least minimum price queries filter
out one way they are abused.)

Also, filter to US sellers only. Usually if you buy from China then the
savings aren't that huge, you'll be waiting a month to get your item, and if
the item ends up not working then it's impossible to return it. On some items
you are going to be getting the same junk anyway, but from a bulk importer
shipping from the US, but other items with definite name-brands it does cut
out a lot of the junk listings.

------
mtw
By stating they're just a platform, Amazon is decreasing the quality and trust
of their brand. 3 to 5 years ago, Amazon was the place to find the best
product in any category. Just put in a few keywords, make sure to restrict by
5-star reviews and eventually you will see the rare gem you were looking for.
Now, if they present to themselves as a platform, it puts them on par with
Facebook, where rankings and presence can be gamed by social engineering or
hackers.

------
imhoguy
Looks like there is hard ceiling in scalability of centralized internet
platforms where things go nuts with enormous size of varied social
(mis)behavour.

Just like with real authoritarian societes, they need expensive control and
justice mechanism including strong censorship aparatus, otherwise the platform
risks collapse or fragmentation.

Trust can't be scaled easily.

This gives me hope that the online world won't be eaten by few entities and
will evolve back into more distributed federation, with local trust plus solid
standards as lesson learned.

~~~
r00fus
Or maybe just don't become a portal for dropship sellers from China.

Is there anything more to Amazon than a) fast shipping and b) you can buy
anything there for relatively cheap* (probably because it's from China)

* I've found Amazon lately is a lot costlier than local department stores for random things.

~~~
stordoff
> Is there anything more to Amazon than a) fast shipping and b) you can buy
> anything there for relatively cheap

Service.

I had some headphones that broke after just over a year, but were still in
warranty, and the manufacturer was being awkward about repairing them. Amazon
refunded them the next day.

I also recently had some bulbs stop working after about six months, but as I'd
ordered a two-pack and a single, and two had stopped working, I wasn't sure
how to do a refund. Amazon just refunded all tree three.

------
vkou
> Amazon would not put him in touch with the seller and never assumed blame
> for the fire.

You can't have it both ways. Either you're just a platform, and have no
liability, in which case you need to make it clear who the seller was, and how
you can reach him, or you own up to selling people dangerous devices.

The culture that produces this sort of behaviour is rotten, and is everything
but customer-focused.

------
close04
> Amazon declined to discuss any of these specific cases, but has denied the
> allegations in court filings, saying it was not the seller of these
> products.

So Pirate Bay is responsible for posting a link even if it's not serving the
illegal content but Amazon is not responsible for doing the same and even
shipping the offensive items?

------
mazelife
I dislike the wishy-washy passive construction in their summary graf:

> In the massive global network of manufacturers, distributors, sellers, and
> resellers, it can be nearly impossible to tell who’s actually responsible
> for getting any given product into your living room.

...because it completely diffuses any sense of responsibility. It's not that
"it can be impossible to tell who’s actually responsible." It's that this
global network was deliberately designed to make it impossible to hold anyone
accountable; as far as Amazon's concerned, that's a feature, not a bug.

------
segfaultbuserr
> _Kerchner suggested that the real enemy is e-cigarette manufacturers, which
> have designed devices around 18650 cells._

> _Korean company that makes LG-branded lithium-ion batteries, sent a letter
> to sellers and distributors of e-cigarette devices and equipment, telling
> them, “Individual consumer use and handling of 18650 cells is a dangerous
> misuse of the cells that can lead to severe burns and disfigurement.” It
> asked companies to stop selling LG 18650 cells, and to tell customers who
> had bought the cells in the past that they should dispose of them safely._

> _Many Amazon sellers reported receiving emails last August saying Amazon had
> prohibited the sale of cylindrical-lithium-ion batteries, including the
> 18650._

I know 18650 cells normally come in battery packs with charging and protection
circuit, and that even in the DIY electronics community, it's not recommended
to build the battery management circuitry by yourself, unless you know what's
you are doing.

But even if purchasing raw, unprotected 18650 cells is not recommended. Still,
if a device is using these raw 18650 cells, it means the proper circuitry must
have been already included in the device. If properly designed, a device with
18650 cells replaced should be as safe as the original one. So there should be
no reason to disallow an individual customer to remove a dead 18650 from a
device, purchase a new cell and replace it. I've personally seen raw 18650
cells found in flashlights and RC toys, replacing them is a routine procedure.

One of the three possibilities:

* 1. Most individual customers have no idea about the safety when handling these raw cells, and are handling and charging them in a reckless and dangerous manner, for example, using a low-quality, generic charger, or exposing them to mechanical shocks, high temperature, etc.

* 2. 18650 cells are inherently unsafe to be used with e-cigarette due to the nature of this application, or they are not safe to replace (easy to break something in this process), or many e-cigarette units do not perform battery management properly.

* 3. It's difficult to distinguish between good and counterfeit 18650 cells, due to the potential hazards, it's better for Amazon to ban them altogether?

As a result, Amazon and some battery manufacturers banned their selling to
individual customers to avoid accidents and incidents due to the above
unfortunate reasons. Otherwise, I think purchasing a new 18650 cell and
replace the dead ones in your electronics should be perfectly acceptable.

Any comment?

 _Edit: So far, the conclusion seems to be a mix of all three issues:_

1\. The biggest problem is #3. It's difficult to find legitimate, authentic
18650 cells. As _tristor_ pointed out
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19839673](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19839673)),
it's a notorious problem in the hobbyist community and e-cigarette community.
If even people who know what they are doing are having trouble finding
authentic cells, offering them to average customers is risky. _zrobotics_
added
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19839977](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19839977))
that the counterfeit problem is a supply-chain level issue!

> _My normal port of call, Digikey, doesn 't appear to carry any actual name-
> brand cells. I see adafruit & sparkfun, hopefully they source decent cells
> but who knows. There's also Jauch Quartz, who I've never heard of._

 _teilo_ also agrees
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19839869](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19839869))
that the proliferation of poorly-made budget 18650s as well as counterfeit re-
wraps of junk 18650s sold as quality brands such as LG.

2\. Problem #2 is a secondary cause. _teilo_ said a lot of poorly designed
devices that lack correct protection, _in the eCig world one can point to the
mechanical mods which are basically a battery directly attached to a coil,
with nothing but a switch in between. Dangerous and stupid. There are some
very good eCig devices that have excellent current and reverse-bias
protection, but they cost more_.

3\. The last cause is #1, the improper handling of these cells, such as
shorting spare e-cigarette cells with metal objects in a pocket, or using bad
chargers. Also, as _Tepix_ and _jhayward_ said, replacing a protected 18650
with a unprotected cell is very dangerous.

~~~
tristor
Definitely #3. Counterfeit 18650 cells is a serious problem and anyone who has
delved deeply into the e-cig/vaping community is already aware of this and
doesn't purchase batteries through Amazon or any other service where
counterfeits are commonplace.

Counterfeiting of batteries generally, and counterfeiting on Amazon generally,
have become critical path problems for a lot of hobbyist communities where
having a quality supply chain is safety critical. This is not new. It's true
as well in things, such as the car community, where many online supply chains
are corrupted with counterfeit safety-critical items like wheels and brake
calipers.

One of the realities of the world is that "you get what you pay for" is
actually true. This has become clear specifically around the batteries issue
and also in the car community where specialist online retailers who charge a
premium are the go-to places to buy safety-critical components, specifically
and exactly because anyone who cares does not want to accept the risk of a
safety-critical item failing to save a few bucks. On the flip-side, many
people in hobbyist communities are ignorant cheapskates and unfortunately
their penny-pinching drive helps to proliferate counterfeiting.

~~~
sokoloff
"You don't get _more than_ you pay for" is typically true.

"You get what you pay for" is far from guaranteed.

~~~
tristor
Definitely true. There are also instances of companies charging premium prices
for lower quality products in many hobbyist communities. I'd say the clear
corollary to "you get what you pay for" is caveat emptor "buyer beware".

As an aside, I know it's typically discouraged from commenting about
downvotes, but within minutes my comment in the thread was heavily downvoted
and I don't understand why?

~~~
NullPrefix
"You get what you pay for" is a slogan pushed by high markup resellers who
want to look like they provide some value.

~~~
otakucode
It is also a slogan I am personally hoping catches on in certain industries
like the gaming industry - but with different emphasis. That if you pay for
something, you're going to get it. So stop paying for it if you don't want to
get it. Gamers pay for tremendous abuse to be done to them, and then walk
around wide-eyed and mystified why they're being mistreated. Then they pay for
more of it.

------
otakucode
I've never understood why there isn't a fairly simple company out there
manufacturing quality lithium ion cells for older tech. For instance, I have
an original Sony PSP. There's nothing wrong with it. Except for the fact that
it is impossible to find a battery for it and the original ones wore out long
ago. I faced the same thing with my Neato Botvac when it's NiCad battery died,
although I was lucky enough to be able to find an adapted LiIon battery to
replace it (which also extended its operating time, enabled it to charge
faster, etc. Nice upgrade!). My mom is having a very difficult time finding a
new battery for her first-gen Dell XPS 13. Every time I go online to shop for
a battery, it feels like a fight with 99% of the products on offer being
dodgy. It's almost as bad as the bedding industry which is perplexingly
corrupt and soaked neck-deep in black PR.

------
rhinoceraptor
Most of the problem is Amazon’s third party sellers IMO. I just recently got
sent a counterfeit PS4 controller from a third party seller, even though it
had Prime. I would never buy bare lithium cells from Amazon, but I do buy SD
cards as long as they’re from Amazon directly (and then make sure to test them
thoroughly for defects).

~~~
LorenPechtel
Yup. The problem is a bunch of cheap junk by third party sellers. That's where
you have to tread with great care and when it comes to something potentially
dangerous I wouldn't even touch it.

------
Causality1
Amazon has seen an extraordinary increase in counterfeit and defective
products. I'm beginning to think of them as eBay with a better return policy.

------
js2
18650 are widely used in flashlights too. I bought one from Amazon that came
with a battery that has a built-in USB powered charging circuit:

[https://www.amazon.com/Headlamp-Headlight-Rechargeable-
Water...](https://www.amazon.com/Headlamp-Headlight-Rechargeable-Waterproof-
Headlamps/dp/B07BZZFY3J)

Still for sale on Amazon. So it’s just bare 18650’s they won’t sell anymore?

~~~
YjSe2GMQ
Isn't 18650 essentially a generic part number, with numerous providers? These
batteries don't even have to have the same capacity (I've seen many 2700mAh,
3000mAh and 3300mAh), just same package. I'd wager that this is the most
common form of a lithium battery available on the market.

~~~
pjc50
It's not even a part number, it's a form factor + approximate voltage
expectation, like "AA" or "D" cells.

~~~
jsmith45
Technically it is only form factor. The common CR2032 coin cell uses the same
number system.

The first 2 digits are the diameter in millimeters, the remaining digits are
the height in tenths of milimeters. So a CR2032 is 20mm across and 3.2mm tall.
The "CR" portion is what indicates the battery chemistry.

The correct IEC notation for would be ICR18/650 where the first two letters
specify the specific anode and cathode material (I've picked the letters most
commonly seen in examples). Those letters are absolutely critical in
determining the nominal voltage, because without them, we could even be
describing say an alkaline disposable cell of the same shape (LR18/650 would
be such an non-rechargeable alkaline battery of the same shape).

------
madengr
It’s not just batteries. I had an Amazon purchased USB wall charger start
smoking and burning the enclosure. Fortunately we were home when it happened.

I won’t buy any non NRTL certified (i.e. UL, TUV, etc) electronics that plug
into AC power. Of course it could still be counterfeit, but these chargers
were not NRTL certified.

~~~
ChickeNES
What brand was the charger, for reference?

~~~
madengr
They exact ones (Vojo 12W USB charger) are no longer sold (huh, wonder why),
but these are similar:

[https://www.amazon.com/VOJO-Charger-Adaptive-Charging-
QUALCO...](https://www.amazon.com/VOJO-Charger-Adaptive-Charging-
QUALCOMM/dp/B01LVY1FWI/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmrnull_3?keywords=vojo+12W+usb+charger&qid=1557162881&s=gateway&sr=8-3-fkmrnull)

The Belkin ones are UL certified, and I bought several of those with no issues
after 2 years. Problem is Amazon does not list NRTL certification, so it’s a
crap shoot.

The NRTL certification is a big deal at my employer. We can't buy anything
over 48 VDC that isn't certified, or we will lose our insurance for the
facility.

I'm surprised home insurers are not cracking down on this stuff. I'd like to
know the statistics of house fires caused by cheap electronics.

These are a good example. CE, FCC, RoHS have nothing to do with safety (I'm
I'll bet those are fake markings too too). You are plugging in the cheapest
Chinesium into a 120V, 15A circuit

[https://www.amazon.com/Charger-Colorful-Adapter-
Replacement-...](https://www.amazon.com/Charger-Colorful-Adapter-Replacement-
Motorola/dp/B01N68AMCU/ref=pd_day0_hl_107_4/137-4629799-8996504?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01N68AMCU&pd_rd_r=c374b57a-7024-11e9-9381-ffdfe42e5ee6&pd_rd_w=4kbdo&pd_rd_wg=2s9U8&pf_rd_p=ad07871c-e646-4161-82c7-5ed0d4c85b07&pf_rd_r=YD1JH502ZK22JV0G2BST&psc=1&refRID=YD1JH502ZK22JV0G2BST).

This "Amazon Basics" one is pretty funny. "Note: product is certified
according to a UL standard (not by UL)." Does this mean Amazon is liable when
your house burns down?

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0773BHCVD/ref=psdc_2407761011_t1_...](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0773BHCVD/ref=psdc_2407761011_t1_B071YMZ4LD)

The "safety info" for the above is worthless:

[https://images-na.ssl-images-
amazon.com/images/I/91IWSM8gvRL...](https://images-na.ssl-images-
amazon.com/images/I/91IWSM8gvRL.pdf)

FWIW, here are the actual NRTL makrings

[https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html](https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html)

~~~
mindslight
IMHO brands like Belkin are past the sweet spot, heading into the territory
where the brand itself is too long-term trusted, so they can start skimping on
quality for what you're paying. Take apart a consumer APC power strip for a
good WTF. (And sure, I get that stamped metal strips still meet UL. But UL is
like the bare minimum)

I feel bad pumping specific brands, but I've become an Anker fan for chargers.
I was a fan of Aukey, but that's since faded from having one physically break
(obviously then taking it apart), and their lackluster USB C implementation
that feels too close to rebadged Chineseum. Monoprice is still good for
cables, but has unfortunately gone down the high-overhead free-shipping path.

~~~
madengr
Yeah, I bought an Anker one for work. I had to go to Microcenter, and start
opening packages to find one that was UL listed.

------
mindslight
I've never gotten this overwhelming trust and reliance on Amazon. I'll check
prices there, and buy if it makes sense. And I respect CCC for an item's price
history, taking into account it's going to be generally a bit higher with a
few deep discounts.

But I don't understand this idea that it's standard to just go to Amazon, type
in the name of something, and click buy. That has _never_ been sensible! And
the way it's talked about, I can't think it's solely out of laziness. Either
people aren't comfortable visiting multiple web stores, can't fathom making a
shopping list to hit shipping minimums, or the sunk cost of Prime is a hell of
a drug?

And what really amazes me is that I always see these comparisons to eBay, that
assume eBay is some place where you always receive counterfeit junk. In my
experience, you know _exactly_ what type of seller you're dealing with on eBay
- traditional merchant / professional refurbisher / private individual / China
direct / etc. Because eBay puts this up and front, it's very plain to see.
Most sellers _want_ to please, and for the ones that don't (mainly individual
sellers who don't want to eat the shipping cost), you open a case and do a bit
of rigmarole, but still eventually get your money back. (And if you're buying
inexpensive sundries like toiletries where you don't want even the possibility
of that hassle, just go to a B&M vendor's website directly)

Whereas it seems Amazon works to obscure the actual supplier. The article is
about an "HP battery for about $15". That is not an "HP battery", but rather
an unbranded third party battery made to fit in an HP laptop. For this type of
product especially, you're lucky to find one that retains charge any longer
than the return period. Co-mingling seems like practically begging
unaccountable suppliers to slip the quality even further!

Buying this kind of thing you either seek out someone trying to make a new
brand for replacements (who will have navigated the Chineseum), or for less
popular stuff (I just replaced a Nexus 6 battery), you try to sniff out a
decent seller who won't be selling the factory rejects.

It's all work, and if you aren't willing to do it yourself, you can pay for it
by buying a replacement battery from the manufacturer from a legitimate
distribution channel, eg no co-mingling! Obscuring that this work even exists
seems to be Amazon's goal, and it's no wonder that as time goes on more
sellers are exploiting this.

PS I'm actually in the market for 16850 cells sometime soon. Those seem
counterfeit-worthy enough that I'll actually ask here if anyone has links to
favorite trustworthy suppliers!

------
elipsey
Super. My whole family is using old thinkpads with third party batteries. The
batteries all pass DRM, perform well, and cost something that seemed sane to
me, like 35-50 USD.

Are there any warning signs for bad cells?

~~~
robbyt
Warning signs include: Excessive heat, smoke, fire.

------
totalZero
The cheapest option, in the end, is often the most expensive.

------
pjc50
I put "Amazon" in the title, as it was in both the headline and URL of the
linked article, and someone edited it out?

~~~
projektfu
I agree it's strange. A lot of the article is about how Amazon can avoid
liability, protect the actual seller from liability, and continue selling an
unsafe product. I don't think the Amazon part itself is clickbait.

------
0x54D5
I ordered Redkin shampoo and got a knock off just last week. Bottle was the
wrong color and my girlfriend could tell right away that it wasn't the genuine
product.

At this point I'm not sure I'm going to be keeping my Amazon Prime. It no
longer pays for itself when I can't be sure that what I'm ordering is going to
be legit.

------
lightedman
"The lithium-ion battery in the laptop sitting next to him had ignited,
setting his couch on fire. Battery cells were flying all over the living room,
leaking acid."

Lithium-ion cells do not contain acid. The electrolyte is composed of salts,
solvents, and additives.

~~~
bluGill
You know that, I know that, probably most people reading this have enough
chemistry to know that and understand. However the average person doesn't know
that. I wouldn't expect the reporter to know that.

Calling the contents an acid which the average person knows is dangerous is
arguably better than being precise but confusing people into not realizing the
true danger.

~~~
slantyyz
I don't agree. I expect a reporter from a legitimate news organization (as
opposed to some random blogger) to research it and find out. I'm sure 5
minutes of googling would have produced that knowledge.

The reporter could have substituted "chemicals" for "acid", which would have
been less imprecise, but is still a scary enough word for average readers to
interpret as dangerous.

Lowering expectations/standards for journalism is a slippery slope.

------
bartimus
They're 3rd party sellers. Putting the blame on Amazon is a bit like blaming
the postal service for all the faulty products they send. Being the most
popular service as a common denominator doesn't make it the root cause of a
problem.

~~~
epistasis
Given how difficult it is to distinguish an Amazon product from a "3rd party"
product from Amazon, not sure what the difference is here. Postal services
don't advertise and serve as brokers for transactions, masking the identity of
the seller.

~~~
bartimus
I rarely shop on Amazon. I just looked around and you are right it's not easy
to see the seller information. But I wouldn't consider this the root cause of
faulty products. I see it more as a global problem (can also happen on
AliExpress for example). There have always been cheap white label products
coming from China. They've just become more easily available than they used to
be thanks to services like Amazon.

~~~
astura
Problem is we are used to legitimate American-based retailers doing some
vetting of cheap Chinese white label products for safety. We know it's
probably not going to be the highest build quality, we know it might not last,
but we expect it to be safe! When you buy a cheap Chinese-made UL rated
charger from Walmart, you can be pretty sure it's actually UL rated. In
Amazon's case its close to a free-for-all but has the outward appearance of a
legitimate American-based retailer.

