
Is It Time for Germany’s Doorless Elevators to Move On? - gwintrob
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10907564710791284872504581068283842808972
======
tzs
1\. > “Modern lifts are so idiot-proof you could use them in your sleep,” says
Mr. Pfaff. “In fact, they are disenfranchising. Paternosters make you free to
hurt yourself if you don’t pay attention.”

For those thinking it is odd to want to have some potential pain in your life,
keep in mind that Germany is the birthplace of the PainStation [1]. Wanting
your elevator to be gunning for you then makes more sense.

2\. In case it was not clear, the passenger carts do not flip over when they
go over the top (or under the bottom). They are suspended in a way that keeps
them upright. If you fail to get off at the top you just come around and have
another shot at your floor on the down side.

(Although a version that did flip would probably be extra popular there. See
#1).

3\. In an earlier discussion of paternosters, a link to a video of a modern
take on this, by Hitachi, was posted [2].

It's an interesting approach. It has many of the advantages, but with no more
injury risk than a conventional elevator. The basic idea is that the
circulating cars are divided into matched pairs on opposite sides, with each
pair independently driven by a cable. The shaft is not completely filled with
cars like in the paternoster. There are gaps. Those gaps allow a pair to stop
for passengers while other pairs are still moving.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PainStation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PainStation)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnX5WZhvzZY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnX5WZhvzZY)

~~~
achamayou
And it utterly fails anyone in a wheelchair, pushing a pram, lugging a heavy
suitcase etc.

~~~
darklajid
Which is why these aren't built anymore, I guess. Especially the wheelchair
example is a very good reason (I'd argue the other reasons can be largely
considered irrelevant, depending on the building/use case).

So, they're neat, interesting, but probably irrelevant.

But removing them for safety? That's just stupid - just like the article.

~~~
mcphage
> Especially the wheelchair example is a very good reason

Yet they still build stairs and escalators.

------
zellyn
Unbelievably, the only quote I could find even vaguely related to actual
statistics was, "And yet, TÜV chief engineer Reimo Simon says he can’t recall
a fatal incident in Germany in the past 15 years. Official statistics don’t
differentiate between elevator and paternoster accidents."

Come on, WSJ.

------
js2
I don't know how much truth there is to this, but my father once told me there
had been very few fatalities on the original 7 mile bridge in the Florida
keys. But since the new bridge opened in 1982, there have been fatal accidents
every few years. The reason being the old bridge was so narrow (originally it
was a railroad bridge), folks really paid attention driving it, but with the
new wider bridge, drivers became complacent.

I guess no one would use a paternoster without exercising care.

~~~
jeffbush
I've heard a similar argument about bike helmets.

It seems like there should be a fancier name for this effect.

~~~
jameshart
Risk Homeostasis -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation#Risk_homeost...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation#Risk_homeostasis)

------
chralieboy
The article cites no statistics on actual injuries. Neither do the politicians
wanting to ban them out of safety concerns. For something around for this
long, you'd think they'd be able to at least give an example of someone
getting hurt.

~~~
sorbits
Denmark had a fatal accident a month ago involving a 80 year old man who got
his head stuck.

But beyond that episode, I know of no statistics.

Article in Danish: [http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/80-aarig-draebt-i-elevator-paa-
ax...](http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/80-aarig-draebt-i-elevator-paa-
axelborg/5582988)

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BjoernKW
Interestingly, they're mostly found in official buildings ( fiscal authorities
etc.), not exactly environments that are usually known to be particularly
risk-prone.

Anyway, though I've yet to use one of those lifts to me they look like a
rather ingenious design (another aspect official buildings usually aren't
exactly renowned for). Sure, they're not accessible but for most people they
provide a more swift experience than common lifts.

This reminds me of the new (old) Routemaster bus models reintroduced recently
that allow you to hop on and off while the bus is already / still driving
(slowly, that is): Sure, it's a bit dangerous but to those willing to take
that little risk and extra thrill they quite possibly provide a better user
experience.

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throw7
I saw one of these in brno, czech republic. It was a real treat. I also
thought, in the u.s., this is lawsuit waiting to happen... and then I felt
sad.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
'Treat' and 'threat' are only 1 letter apart.

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lhaussknecht
We have four paternosters in our office here in cologne and I'm using them
every day. It's really cool, because you have mostly no wait time to get into
it.

Two of them are out of order at the moment. I heard, that fixing one would
cost about 900k €.

~~~
junto
There are several in Bremen and most are accessible to the public. There is a
set of them in the Finanzamt (tax office) so any tax abiding or non-abiding
citizen can go ride it!

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to3m
Previously in paternosters:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9642158](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9642158)
(includes link to the discussion before that - note that these aren't all
referring to the same link, but the careful reader may spot a theme)

------
facepalm
They are quite rare actually. I have never seen one (living in Germany all my
life). You'd have to actively seek one out to encounter them.

~~~
weinzierl
This is exactly my experience. I think the only existing ones are preserved
for historic reasons.

This being said, according to German Wikipedia in May 2015 there were still
240 paternosters in operation. You can browse the list at:
[http://www.flemming-hamburg.de/patlist.htm](http://www.flemming-
hamburg.de/patlist.htm)

~~~
facepalm
Thanks to your list I realized there is one in a building I walk by almost
every week. Guess I'll be riding a Paternoster soon :-)

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Pinckney
I think paternosters are really, really cool. I'd love to ride one.

However, I must wonder whether they can be used by the elderly or disabled.
How do you board one with a wheelchair? Or do they just run alongside modern
elevators in buildings where handicapped accessibility is a requirement?

~~~
massysett
It doesn't look like a substitute for an elevator. More like a substitute for
an escalator. Those aren't accessible either.

Using it looks to require a skill set similar to that for riding an escalator.
There's potential for mishap with either device. I wonder how safe the
paternoster would be if it had modern safety devices, like a switch to shut it
down if someone gets stuck in the parts? But one problem is that then everyone
is stuck inside. You can just walk on an escalator when it's off.

~~~
LeUsername
> I wonder how safe the paternoster would be if it had modern safety devices,
> like a switch to shut it down if someone gets stuck in the parts? But one
> problem is that then everyone is stuck inside. You can just walk on an
> escalator when it's off.

Albeit somehow crude with no computers, infrared sensors or whatever, such
safety devices are decades old.

For example, before the upward traveling cabin leaves the floor, there is a
freely hanging wood panel -- if any part of you is sticking out, instead of
being crushed in between the cabin and the next floor, you first hit the panel
and lift it up, which trips a safety button shutting the whole elevator off.
Or the last few inches of floorboards, both in the cabin and on the individual
floors, are hinged.

As for being stuck inside when the safety trips -- having approximately one
cabin per floor, each for two occupants at max, you are no worse than having a
single cabin with multiple persons stuck in a traditional elevator. You can
still walk on the adjacent staircase or use a traditional elevator. These
elevators are also required to have a designated attendant (that does not mean
a full time person sitting and doing nothing, for example a concierge can be
in charge of that) and it is his or her role to immediately free (or call
help) stuck people in case of safety cut out or power outage.

------
lfam
I made a special detour to ride one of these in Kobenhavn in the Axelborg
building. If the statistics show them to be safe, I think they should be
preserved.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T49PsI6maMg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T49PsI6maMg)

For most human traffic, they are less tedious than elevators: less waiting, no
stop and go, a constant sense of motion. I don't think their riders would feel
trapped the way I sometimes do in slow, busy elevators.

I think of them like a compacted escalator. I wonder if they actually are more
compact.

~~~
Someone1234
While that does look incredibly unsafe (and would get vandalised/abused a lot
of left unattended) it also looks quite fun to use and I can see why people
like them.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
I tried one back when the UK still had them.

They _are_ fun - so fun I went up and down a few times. (It was late, and the
building was almost empty.)

They feel reliable. You hop on, you go up/down, you hop off.

You don't wait to see if the button you pushed actually did something, you
don't try to find a place in a small herd of anxious people with decreased
personal space, none of whom are talking, you don't get claustrophobia or any
other phobia, and the jump on/off experience adds a frisson of excitement to
your day.

And it's hard to get trapped in one. (Not impossible. But certainly hard.)

I suppose contact/proximity sensors at the limb/head-chopping edges would add
to the cost, but conventional elevators are hardly 100% safe, so I don't
really see the rationale for killing them off.

~~~
tim333
There still seems to be one at Sheffield University

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arts_Tower](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arts_Tower)

~~~
s0fa37
Glad to see someone posted this! I was a student at Sheffield and did ride
this one a couple of times. I was always skeptical about the safety but have
never heard of any accidents happening.

What I found most amusing is that you pass through a floor with full view of
the people waiting, and so there's plenty of opportunity for awkward eye
contact.

------
acqq
The first time I saw it in some old US silent-movie comedy as I was kid. I was
scared just as I've seen it. You can imagine that those guys managed to make
gags with that.

I can't find that movie (maybe somebody knows) (Edit: German Wikipedia
mentions Charlie Chaplin?) the only thing I can find is something completely
different I've also remembered:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXBmUOjgWJE&t=8m20s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXBmUOjgWJE&t=8m20s)

Back to the chain elevator, as a grown-up I rode in it, and it felt not scary,
more like "safe enough" and even interesting.

But it surely isn't made for everybody.

~~~
astrodust
Twin steps into up elevator, twin steps out of opposite side. People
completely confused.

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steve_g
I remember using something similar in US paper mills during the mid-late '80s.
We called it a manlift. It was basically a vertical rubber conveyor belt with
a small platform and a handhold located every 10' or so. It ran through holes
in the floor. You just approached it, stepped onto the platform, and grabbed
the handhold. There was a limit switch to stop the belt if you didn't get off
at the highest floor, because it did just return down the other side.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
They have those in Star Trek:TNG Engineering!

------
dimino
> “The paternoster is the VW-beetle of elevators. Not many people use it, but
> many love it,” Ms. Nahles wrote in a Facebook post.

Oh come on, VW is the largest car company in the world...

~~~
tene
Yes, and they produce other models of cars besides the beetle.

~~~
kragen
They haven't made the Beetle in 12 years, and they haven’t made it outside
Brazil and Mexico since 1979, 37 years ago.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
What do they call the car they do make then? Its on the Golf frame, has the
curved top and looks like the Beetle on steroids.

~~~
kragen
The New Beetle.

------
bliti
There is something oddly satisfying about this design. Other concerns aside,
it just operates so smoothly. Seems to take all the friction of an elevator
ride away.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
It works for 5 floors or so. After that the delay becomes noticeable?
Elevators can and do accelerate drastically when moving long distances.

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Zigurd
I have seen this type of lift in a parking garage in the US, for use by the
garage employees. It was even more barebones than the pictures of paternoster
lifts I've seen. It was more like a moving continuous ladder.

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Qantourisc
Thinking about them, can't they be made safish with a dectors for stuck limbs
? (Basically a big button the width of the elevator on top of the elevtor and
on top of the ceiling.)

~~~
LeUsername
I don't know if it is typical or not, but at least some of them have that. I
saw one in Prague, Czech Republic (there was an ACM contest hosted on Czech
Technical University).

When you look at the frame, where you enter the elevator ("door", "door frame"
or however it should be called):

\- a part of the floor is on hinges, so if you had your foot stuck between an
oncoming floor board and cabin floor while traveling up, it would "open" and
trip the safety,

\- upper part is actually a freely hanging piece of wood, so if you had your
head or limbs sticking out while traveling up, you would lift the piece of
wood and trip the safety.

No idea about the actual cabins -- for example if you kept hanging on the
floor while the cabin travels down onto you -- but I suspect that the top of
the cabin works similarly to the top of the "door frame". If my memory is
correct, the cabins also had hinges near the edge of their floorboards (e.g.,
foot between the floor and the cabin traveling down), but no idea if these
also stop the entire system.

Only the visible chain mechanism when overriding top or bottom looked unsafe
to me, because I stick my hands everywhere :)

~~~
LeUsername
PS: These safety parts looked almost as old as the elevator, so if they
weren't a part of the original design, I would guess they were added a long
time ago...

EDIT: I actually found a mention of regulation from 1982 stating that the
sliding upper parts are mandatory both on the cabin and on the "door frame"
and moving them must stop the elevator. The hinged floorboards on cabins and
floors are also mandatory, but there is no mention that they should also stop
the elevator. See [1] (in Czech) for pictures.

[1]
[http://paternoster.archii.cz/bezpecnost.html](http://paternoster.archii.cz/bezpecnost.html)

------
cafard
Parking garages use something similar, but to my eye more dangerous, to get
the staff quickly to different floors. I have no idea what they are called.

~~~
Animats
Manlifts.[1] Those are more dangerous than a paternoster. They're essentially
a powered ladder. The biggest hazard is failing to get off at the top, because
the belt just goes over a pulley and back down, which would throw the rider
down the shaft head first. OSHA: _At the top floor an illuminated sign shall
be displayed bearing the following wording: "TOP FLOOR - GET OFF" ... a red
warning light of not less than 40-watt rating shall be provided immediately
below the upper landing terminal and so located as to shine in the passenger's
face. ... Two separate automatic stop devices shall be provided to cut off the
power and apply the brake when a loaded step passes the upper terminal
landing."_

[1]
[https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_tab...](https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9733)

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tikue_
They have them in the Czech Republic, too. I've been on one in Prague.

------
kragen
It seems like you could dramatically improve the standard elevator system now
that microcontrollers make it easy to have what used to be sophisticated
control systems and modern power semiconductors make it easy to control large
amounts of electrical power at high speeds.

Here’s a braindump. The overlong sentences are probably a symptom of too much
coffee.

You’d have an “up” lane on the left and a “down” lane on the right, as in a
paternoster or in Hitachi’s system mentioned in
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9786871](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9786871),
but the cars wouldn’t stop in them; instead, you’d have a “station” at each
floor in between the two lanes for the car to stop in without blocking
traffic. (Popular floors, like typically the ground floor, would have several
stations.) The cars would be small and light, holding two friends or a parent
with some small children comfortably, with seatbelts and a maximum gross
weight of maybe 300 kg; you could have a door to keep you from accidentally
falling out of the car while it was moving, but it wouldn’t need to be
automatic, since if you didn’t manage to get it closed, it would inconvenience
only you (and whoever else is waiting to reach your floor, if you’re on a
single-station floor.)

Once you are in motion, you continue to your destination floor without
stopping; because you are sharing the elevator shaft with other cars, you
don’t need to share the elevator car with other people. Your trajectory
through spacetime to the destination station is reserved by the control
computer before you leave the station, so that other cars will only crash into
yours if there is a malfunction, such as a rail jam or a cable break. Much of
the time, cars will travel through the shaft in convoys with their bumpers in
contact with one another, limited by the speed of the frontmost car, which
will greatly limit potential collision damage if a malfunction should happen.

(Probably the optimal number of stations on most floors is two, not one,
because with two stations, there will almost always be one unoccupied station
that your arrival can be scheduled into.)

Power and non-emergency braking are applied to the cars using the same cable-
traction system all current elevators use (except for those shitty Otis
hydraulic elevators, and those few rack-and-pinion elevators), but the energy
is not applied to or removed from the cable by a motor; it is delivered to
your car entirely from counterweights connected to your car’s cable through a
system of CVTs and clutches. Low-power electric motors lift spare
counterweights continuously to replace energy either lost to friction or
stairway descents or currently stored in people or objects that haven’t
returned back down to street level.

This system removes electric-power constraints to maximum acceleration, so
that a continuous-jerk spline trajectory should allow comfortable ascents and
descents with accelerations as large as ±⅓g. For a Burj-Khalifa-scale tower of
900 meters, ⅓g means you can comfortably travel from the bottom to the top, in
any of the 100 or so cars, in about 20 or 30 seconds, reaching about 70 MPH in
the middle of the trip, ten times normal elevator speed.

(Accelerating 300kg at ⅓g at 70MPH is about 43 horsepower, which is within the
range of normal elevator power capacities, so it wouldn’t be impractical to
build such a high-speed elevator system without the complicated CVT/clutch
system, just inefficient.)

As with public-transit cable-car systems or cable tramways, your car can grasp
and release cables dynamically, but it can grasp any of several different
cables, allowing us to have more cars running at different velocities than we
have cable loops and preventing cable breaks from being an emergency under
normal circumstances.

And you would do all of this while taking up only the floor footprint of three
small elevator cars on most levels, unlike the Burj Khalifa’s 57 large shafts,
which run at one-third the peak speed described here and have to stop
frequently because you share the car with a dozen other people.

(If you build a subway along these principles, you could use a 48-volt DC
third rail; lightweight four-seat vehicles running on bicycle wheels powered
by independent motors in the vehicle, rather than cableways; dirt-floored
tunnels, unless you’re below the water table; and stations and lines spaced
some 50 meters apart instead of 500.)

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malkia
Holy crap! This thing exists? Just reading about it, and it overcame my fear
of heights... and by that I mean it's more scary than what I'm most scared of.

------
yellowapple
If it was indeed "Time for Germany's Doorless Elevators to Move On", WSJ
wouldn't have felt the need to phrase it as a question.

Betteridge's law of headlines in action, folks.

