
Show HN: Spaced Repetition System for iOS - jmcannon
http://cleverdeck.com
======
jmcannon
Hi HN! I first posted CleverDeck about 2.5 years ago and received a lot of
support and encouragement from the community. Since then, I've built it out
into a more general purpose spaced repetition system and added seven new
3000-word frequency lists for major languages. I launched the big update today
([http://cleverdeck.com/blog](http://cleverdeck.com/blog)) and would love to
once again submit it here for feedback. Cheers!

~~~
sbmassey
What are the advantages over Anki?

~~~
jmcannon
Two things, I think.

First, I was a long time power user of Anki and don't mean to disparage it,
but I think CleverDeck has a much better user experience and design.

Second, we've spent a tremendous amount of time putting together high quality
frequency lists (mostly for languages right now) that incorporate professional
imagery, native-speaker audio, transliterations (where relevant), and example
sentences. Usually, making or piecing together your own decks and cards is the
most time-consuming part of using an SRS - and user content is often of
dubious quality.

In terms of the spaced repetition, though, CleverDeck and Anki actually use
the same algorithm.

~~~
misiti3780
where did you get the native speaker audio ?

~~~
jmcannon
We recorded it ourselves by interviewing and hiring local to us.

------
scentedmeat
I really dislike the 'per month' monetization. I would rather be able to buy
the decks that I'm interested in.

~~~
jmcannon
What do you think is a fair price for one of our 3000 word language decks? In
the previous iteration of the app, people showed themselves willing to pay
$15.

Repeat revenue makes it easier for me to make a living as an indie dev, so I
wanted to give this model a try while charging what I think is a fair price.
I'll keep an open mind about it and adjust if enough people want it.
Appreciate the feedback!

~~~
huhtenberg
> _Repeat revenue makes it easier for me to make a living as an indie dev_

Of course it does! "And a pony."

You have to realize that most people are _exceptionally_ leery of
subscriptions as they are open-ended long-term commercial relationships with
some random entity. There gotta be rock-solid clear benefits for a
subscription to be justified. There are none in your case. What you have is a
product, not a service. A subscription makes no sense whatsoever.

With regards to the fixed pricing - 3000 word pack is not the best option.
What's more useful from the language learners perspective are packs that cover
specific domain area - foods, kitchen utensils, car parts, body parts, weather
elements, household tools, etc.

"3000 words" = "Unclear what you are getting"

"100 words, Garage" = "I may be able talk to the mechanic"

If you have smaller packs, you can sell them at few bucks a piece. You can try
and experiment with discounted bundles of packs. And you can also try an all-
you-can-eat option with a monthly access (yes, subscription), but as one of
the options, not the only one.

PS. Have an option of switching off photos on cards.

~~~
adrianN
I don't think domain specific packs are very useful for language learners. You
need a rather large vocabulary just to follow a normal everyday conversation.
Basic conversation and reading skill are the foundation upon which you can
build. You need to consume and produce a large amount of material in your
target language if you want to master it.

Buying the language a few hundred words at a time won't get you to fluency as
quickly as learning words by frequency until you have covered the most
frequent ~80%. Only then does it make sense to focus on specific domains that
are most interesting to you.

~~~
bravura
Actually, it does make sense to have packs that are structured in a particular
way.

For example, I am learning German. I would rather have a pack with the 25 most
frequent nouns, 25 most frequent verbs, and maybe 25 most frequent adjectives.
Then I have a foundation of vocabulary to learn the dativ and akkusativ. I
don't need the adverbs yet.

Also, if I'm learning the modal verbs, I'd like a pack of those.

------
mdevere
Hi. I actually had it in mind to create something like this myself -- a
mobile-first, nicer-designed version of Anki. But it looks like you already
started on this, 2.5 years ago. Always the way..

It definitely looks nicer than Anki. It's also better for creating simple
cards, something which I haven't really been able to do on the Anki app. The
workflow for adding a new card is a great experience. I _do_ think that
creating my own cards is an important part of the memorisation process. I've
downloaded pre-made cards before, but the stuff I use in conversation is
almost always the stuff where I've created the card. Those are the
words/phrases that leap to mind.

One issue - my recorded audio didn't play when I reviewed the card (either on
the front side or the back side). Maybe a bug?

Based on just 5 minutes of experimentation, I expect that this will become my
"on the go" card creator, while I'll keep Anki around for the time being
because, when I create cards on my laptop, I can import Forvo pronunciations
etc.

Have you thought about how to monetise this?

~~~
kendallpark
> I actually had it in mind to create something like this myself -- a mobile-
> first, nicer-designed version of Anki.

This is also my current project. Although not mobile first. I use Anki a lot
and personally find the UI to be insufferable.

~~~
FreakyT
100% this. I solely use the unofficial AnkiDroid port because it's leagues
beyond the awful desktop app.

Somewhat related: a lot of its horribleness comes from the fact that the UI is
written with QT, which is equally horrible for Windows and Mac, and basically
okay for Linux as long as your DE is KDE.

~~~
kendallpark
> a lot of its horribleness comes from the fact that the UI is written with QT

I would agree with this. It also doesn't appear that much thought went into
how the application should flow. It really feels like a smattering of UI
components were picked out because they could accomplish the goal at hand
without much thought as to what would optimize the user experience. For
example, the way you browse through cards leaves much to be desired. Even
stuff like the size of the buttons when you're reviewing cards. It DOES feel
like the kit used to handle the GUI limits the application.

One thing that I think Anki got right (and I got wrong in my first iteration
of a spaced-rep app) is doing away with the visual metaphor of a card. The
reason you put information on a back of a real-life flash card is so you can
review the question without seeing the answer. The answer is obfuscated, but
readily available (you don't have to go look it up). There is NO reason to
keep the metaphor alive in an app. It is actually less optimal to animate a
card flipping over when you want to see the answer. It is better for the
answer to simply appear underneath the question so you can easily reference
each aspect.

------
lkjaero
Love the idea! Is there any way to import existing Anki decks? I don't want to
start my learning from scratch.

~~~
jmcannon
Working on it! There's no really good way to do this on the device, so I need
to build out a web app. But this is the number one most requested feature, so
stay tuned :)

------
eps
Do I understand correctly that paid subscription effectively removes 100 card
limit? The description on the Settings page says something about "unlimited
access to all content," but I can't seem to understand what this means
exactly.

PS. I'm probably not the only one who stuffs his wallet deeper in the pocket
upon seeing an "auto-renewable subscription." I would strongly encourage you
to add non-subscription way for people to give you some money. I like what you
made, it's useful and I'd like to support you, but no way in hell I'm entering
a recurrent $ committment with a vendor of any app that I may or may not be
using few weeks from now.

~~~
jmcannon
Thanks for the advice.

I don't necessarily feel like I have nailed the business model right now -
I'll see how it goes. More broadly speaking, I think the jury is still out on
subscriptions in productivity apps. Everyone is trying to get away with it now
- and it is very attractive as an indie developer.

For what its worth, I feel similarly to you. I buy year long auto-renewable
subscriptions, immediately cancel them, and then resubscribe if I'm still
using them next year.

~~~
0xf8
the immediate cancel yearly subscription approach is the move...

------
xspade
Great work, I've been searching for something like this for a while, and never
really liked the UX for Anki. I love the UX, very clean and easy to use.
Tutorial / intro was the perfect length, gave me a quick run down on how to
use it without taking too much time.

I almost skipped over this because I didn't know what "spaced repetition
system" was. My only suggestion is to market it around what benefit the user
will get out of it, and not SRS / or the algorithm behind it.

~~~
jmcannon
Yeah, yours is the second comment along these lines and I think you're right.

My thinking was that I wanted to differentiate it from the very gamey branding
of apps like Memrise and Duolingo. "Spaced repetition system" sounds more
serious, more academic - and I do want people to get the impression that
CleverDeck takes the spaced repetition implementation as seriously as Anki. I
think I can probably still do that while being more clear - thanks for the
feedback.

~~~
pavedwalden
FWIW, I was drawn in by the term Spaced Repetition because I like Anki in
theory but hate the UI

~~~
dotancohen
As a very heavy Anki user, I would love to know what you don't like about the
UI. I use Anki mostly as Ankidroid on a Note 3, but I add all my material on
the Desktop (CentOS).

------
dannyh
Spaced repetition is why drip marketing works. Definitely the way to go when
building memory.

------
tsukaisute
Just downloaded.

Quick feedback: flicking away a card takes too long (vertical distance) of a
flick. I have to carefully drag it from top to bottom for the card to flick
away. Wish it was more sensitive. Perhaps 30% of the screen height is enough
of a threshold. Otherwise, thank you. Going to be using this!

~~~
jmcannon
Hmm, I wonder if there's some confusion here. Cards can be swiped left, up, or
right - but not from top to bottom. Otherwise, thanks for the feedback!

~~~
tsukaisute
If I swipe long enough vertically, the card does seem to go away, so I figured
it's a "come back to this later" feature. Didn't realize could do
up/left/right to mark status, that's handy!

------
misiti3780
I love spaced repetition but serious question - what can you give me that Anki
doesnt. Yes, I know Anki's interface is ugly but it is open source so I can
actually change things and know how the spacing algorithm works. etc.

~~~
jmcannon
You can change most variables in CleverDeck's algorithm (the same one Anki
uses), as well.

If open source and super customizability are important to you, Anki is
probably a better choice for you. For many people, I think having the ready-
made decks and a nice interface is more important. And CleverDeck does have
some features, like three-sided cards and siblings, that I personally loved in
Anki.

~~~
riott84
Personally I don't think super cuztomizability is that important for me. I
prefer to have an out of the box solution with ready-made decks but being able
to create my own decks is definitely a nice plus. My favorite aspects going
through the app (learning Turkish) is the beautiful and intuitive design.
Spaced repetition might sound a bit daunting, but completely got it once I
started using the app. Well done, this is definitely something I will use
daily and that will improve my learning.

------
chrischen
The UI is great andI love that each one actually has example sentences, but
the text isn't selectable and you can't tap to get the definition of other
words in the example sentences.

~~~
jmcannon
Thank you! That's a good idea for a feature :)

~~~
herrvogel-
Yeah I had the same idea! While doing the advanced english deck I sometimes
wanted to check for translations in my native language.

------
yuharakn
The great thing for me is that there are great materials for lesser studied
languages - I've used it for both Turkish and Persian, which ive really
struggled to find.

------
headconnect
Actually really quite well done, got it after the first posting, and quite
enjoyed using it! Still do from time to time, the interface is seriously
meditative :)

------
neves
Why it is better than other options, like Anki?

~~~
jmcannon
Pasting my response from below:

Two things, I think.

First, I was a long time power user of Anki and don't mean to disparage it,
but I think CleverDeck has a much better user experience and design.

Second, we've spent a tremendous amount of time putting together high quality
frequency lists (mostly for languages right now) that incorporate professional
imagery, native-speaker audio, transliterations (where relevant), and example
sentences. Usually, making or piecing together your own decks and cards is the
most time-consuming part of using an SRS - and user content is often of
dubious quality.

In terms of the spaced repetition, though, CleverDeck and Anki actually use
the same algorithm.

------
laixer
Looks pretty good (coming from a Anki user).

One piece of feedback: The toolbar UX in the deck is confusing as it's
inconsistent with every other iOS app. The 'back' button should be on the left
and the 'options' button needs to be on the right.

~~~
jmcannon
Yeah, my mental model for the app has been that the main list of decks "lives"
in the center, the settings live on the right, and the actual studying happens
on the left (you'll see that it also slides in from the left - mirroring the
exit animation).

You're not the first to mention this, though. I should probably change it.

------
bko
How much effort is it to add a new language? My wife is trying to learn
Serbian using spaced repetition and had an app to create her own flash cards
with her own pictures and sounds, but it's very laborious

~~~
seren
Have you heard about Memrise? It is site/mobile app dedicated to learn new
language using SRS.

Apart from official content, most of the content is contributed by bilingual
users. So I don't know the quality/accuracy of them, but the result is that
they have lots of courses.

[https://www.memrise.com/courses/english/serbian/](https://www.memrise.com/courses/english/serbian/)

It is a bit hard to pick up grammar or conversationnal skills but to learn
some vocabulary it is great.

~~~
bko
I haven't heard of it but will definitely check it out. Thanks for the tip!

------
glhaynes
_CleverDeck_

 _Spaced repetition system for iOS_

Might be effective to have "memory" in there somewhere?

Also, somehow the first 3/4s of the linked page (before scrolling) put me in
the frame of "this product is primarily about making my own decks".

~~~
jmcannon
Yeah, I think you're right. The tagline can be improved.

I'm kind of doing a balancing act right now - I've built out CleverDeck to be
a fully functional SRS that could be used for any subject, and I want to
convey that. At the same time, people primarily use it for learning languages
and I also want to communicate my dedication and efforts toward that
particular niche.

I'm sure I can do a better job with messaging. Thanks for your feedback.

~~~
glhaynes
IMO, the screenshots on your App Store page do a great job of progressively
disclosing details on the app starting from its primary value proposition.

I'm enjoying the app, which is very nice! I think it, too, could make its
bundled content a bit more upfront without losing the emphasis on DIY.

------
xor1
This looks really cool, I was just thinking earlier today that I need to set
up some Anki decks.

I just have one question: Do you gain any rights to user-made decks? Ownership
or usage rights or otherwise.

~~~
jmcannon
Thank you! No - right now, CleverDeck doesn't even have any deck sharing
functionality. Whatever you make is yours alone.

------
eridius
This looks pretty good, but I really wish you had support for Korean.

~~~
jmcannon
Me, too :(

It's next on the agenda.

~~~
eridius
Glad to hear it!

Is there any way I can sign up to be notified when you add support for it?

~~~
jmcannon
Shoot me an email at justin@cleverdeck.com with your email address and I'll
make sure you get notified :)

~~~
eridius
Done. Thanks!

------
foota
I'm on an Android phone in an airport, so no chance to check it out, but what
kind of tech stack are you using?

~~~
jmcannon
Nothing fancy - objective C with core data. The backend is Django + AWS.

------
sprt
Quizlet seems to be doing the same thing and already has a somewhat large
community behind it.

~~~
jmcannon
I mean, yeah, Quizlet is massive. I'll never compete with their user-content
library and community. They've never had a particular focus on spaced
repetition, so I don't really see them as a big competitor.

------
tardo99
Tips on using it if you already have a vocab of 2000 or 3000 words in a target
language?

~~~
jmcannon
You can jump ahead in any deck by holding the red trash button. Since the
decks are ordered by frequency, you could probably jump ahead 1000-1500 words
and then just get rid of any words you already know.

Otherwise, you can always just create your own cards. If you do that on top of
one of CleverDeck's decks, it will autocomplete if we've already made a card
for a particular word.

------
sbee3
Great App! Could you provide APIs for people to create Deck easier and
quicker? Thanks!

~~~
jmcannon
Thank you!

I probably don't have the bandwidth to support a full-blown API, but making a
web app that makes bulk creation faster is a priority.

~~~
codefined
Bandwidth shouldn't be an issue here, although this is a side project (so I
realise money is limited), from experience you can send and receive roughly
200-400 images per second for every $5/month you spend. I don't know your
precise usage count, but I would be surprised if you were to get that many
images downloaded every second.

~~~
jmcannon
Sorry, I meant bandwidth metaphorically. I'm an indie dev, so I just don't
have a ton of time to divide across so many things that need to get done.

------
focuser
I wonder if there's a way to provide custom content? Is there an API or
something?

~~~
jmcannon
You can make your own decks and cards, and import decks from Quizlet or csv.

I'm currently working on an accompanying web app that will allow importing of
lists from more services and allow for faster bulk content creation.

~~~
bjcy
When importing from csv, can you import to a deck multiple times and have it
just update? Or do you have to create a new deck each time?

Also, can decks be shared?

Love the design and it's a welcome change of pace coming from other SRS apps.

~~~
jmcannon
Thank you!

Right now, the import is pretty rudimentary. It just parses and creates a new
deck.

I've been working on - and now will redouble my efforts based on the feedback
here - a web app that will make creation and import much easier and flexible.

------
zaphoyd
Any plans to support iPads?

~~~
jmcannon
Not right now - I quite like using it as a universal app on my iPad. To be
honest, I'm not sure how I could significantly improve it with all the extra
space.

~~~
zaphoyd
Thanks for confirming no plans. I've lost track of the number who have
promised it for years and never delivered. This looks like a nice app for
iPhones, but its not useful for serious iPad work.

In case you revisit this decision in the future, using the extra space isn't
the issue. The "improvements" I'd be looking for on iPads would be much more
mundane: support for the basic stuff like using the iPad keyboard, supporting
split screen and landscape orientation, and text quality that doesn't look
like it's from pre-retina days.

~~~
jmcannon
Hey thanks! That's really helpful. Noted!

------
fao_
I don't have iOS, but... what benefits does this have over Anki?

~~~
jmcannon
Pasting my response from below:

Two things, I think.

First, I was a long time power user of Anki and don't mean to disparage it,
but I think CleverDeck has a much better user experience and design.

Second, we've spent a tremendous amount of time putting together high quality
frequency lists (mostly for languages right now) that incorporate professional
imagery, native-speaker audio, transliterations (where relevant), and example
sentences. Usually, making or piecing together your own decks and cards is the
most time-consuming part of using an SRS - and user content is often of
dubious quality. In terms of the spaced repetition, though, CleverDeck and
Anki actually use the same algorithm.

------
sbee3
Are decks created by user stored local or remote? Thanks!

~~~
jmcannon
Completely local unless you make an account and turn on sync. In that case,
they'll be stored remotely for the purpose of syncing between devices.

------
cakedoggie
Um, so we can advertise our apps on hackernews now? Cool.

~~~
mikestew
Yes, in the fourteen days since you created your account, you might not have
noticed that “Show HN” is quite common. I don’t know what the guidelines are,
but perhaps they are outlined in the FAQ.

~~~
wingerlang
[https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html)

> Show HN is a way to share something that you've made on Hacker News.

