
Old Smartphones Are a Problem for Apple and Samsung - uptown
https://www.wsj.com/articles/your-love-of-your-old-smartphone-is-a-problem-for-apple-and-samsung-1519822801
======
jimmies
I feel like there is something lost in taking pride in making stuff that are
durable and usable for a long time. I remember when I was a boy, there was an
ad for Electrolux washing machines in my country with the tagline "I wish
everything is as durable as Electrolux." That was one among the few I was so
impressed with. My family then really bought an Electrolux washing machine
that lasted for 15 years. You know, it worked as a dumb washing machine. No
smart iOT that I can start from smart hub, no firmware updates, no remote
control from work, no touch screen.

Even Apple was a symbol of longevity. My friend is still using his Apple
laptop he bought in 2009. And now they slow phones down and not push new
features to old phones, partly just to sell more phones (because they decided
they won't charge for software updates, which cost money). I see people with
cars that are produced a year ago can't talk to their phone. The whole idea of
pursuing profit and selling as many products to get as much money as possible
is, I think, part of why people are so worn out and tired nowadays with tech.
People upgrade phones not because they want to, but because they have to.

I used to be extremely frustrated by it - technology once was my joy, now it
is just an endless loop of money grabbing tactics. Another gimmick, another
"product" that says it improves my lifestyle, connect people and shit. People
talk about great products on Youtube, turned out they were paid for it.

Then I decided that either I do something about it, or I get defeated. Lately,
I have been writing about software that works for a long time and create
software that allows you to have new features on old cars. I made it extremely
clear that it is free software and it is fun. Hackaday joked about my project
as "Modern cars and head units are pretty fancy gadget-wise. But what if your
car still has an 8-track? No problem." I love it! Those ideas seemed to be
also extremely well received by HN crowd.

I haven't received this much positivity and feedback in the last couple of
years. I feel joy again in life - there is a surge in my willing to get up
everyday to do free software, and not worrying too much about the trends or
the money. After all, I have not been starving for money but I starved for a
purpose. The other day when I made the demo video for it at 1PM, I haven't
eaten anything for the day and my voice was trembling, but it got to #1 on HN,
and I was so excited to show the world my idea. I didn't write this to shill
my alpha level software and shitty writing. I don't want to link them here, if
you are really curious you can check my submission history. But if you feel
let down by technology lately, I would encourage you to go do free software
and things that you think as right. It's good for your mental health.

~~~
scarface74
_And now they slow phones down and not push new features to old phones, partly
just to sell more phones (because they decided they won 't charge for software
updates, which cost money)._

So which one should they do? If they push all of the new features they slow
phones down even more, if they don't push new features people complain about
planned obsolescence.

~~~
flukus
New features don't have to mean slow down, especially if those features aren't
being used. Believe it or not there was a time when release notes included
things like "sped up x 10%, reduced file system writes by 50% in y".

Developers used to respect the limited hardware resources of their users.

~~~
walterbell
Especially when software was not developed by a hardware manufacturer.

------
gooseus
Well, I'm sure they're only a few OS updates away from "convincing" people
that their old smartphone is really the problem. The only reason I ever
upgraded from the 4S is because iOS updates made opening my text messages (and
every other transition) take 2-3 seconds.

I only got an iPhone because I was going to do some app development, but
eventually lost interest, partially because Xcode and the byzantine Apple
certificate process made me hate life.

I, personally, think smart phones peaked with the Palm Pre and WebOS.

I honestly can't think of a feature I've seen in the last 5-8 years that has
impressed me at all, maybe LTE?... the only things that have improved mildly
are some specific apps and none of them seem like they should even need faster
CPU or more RAM if OS updates included optimizations rather than bloat.

But, perpetual growth economy! So you better believe that if they can't
innovate a new killer feature to convince people to upgrade they'll be
"innovating" a new killer usability degradation to do it instead.

~~~
rimliu
I can name a few that impressed me: TouchID, AR, FaceID.

~~~
gooseus
I still use a passcode... I think true authentication should come from my
conscious awareness, rather than the mere presence of some biological
characteristics.

Haven't actually found any AR use cases that has been compelling, didn't get
into the Pokemon Go craze and in the mapping world I think I would trade any
AR capability for compass functionality that could actually tell which way my
phone was oriented without endless calibration and movement.

~~~
chrstphrknwtn
I 100% agree on the Touch ID point; storing a key in my mind is more secure
than just requiring a part of body to be in some spatial relationship to the
device.

I'm surprised that people believe Touch/FaceID are secure in any real sense.

~~~
rhinoceraptor
Of course touch/face ID are not nation-state (or even talented hacker) secure,
that was never the point. They are secure for the case where someone steals or
finds your phone.

The only people who used passcodes before biometrics in smartphones were
either security conscious tech people, or they were forced to use it on their
work phone.

------
dvfjsdhgfv
It's not 'love', there is simply no reason to replace objects only because
that's the plan of the company producing them. It's much better for the
environment if we purchase a good, durable, high quality device that will
serve us for years, rather than buy low-quality thrash and replace it every
year.

~~~
cptskippy
You're right and not all manufacturers will produce high quality devices or
continue to support them. So in a market where some devices are high quality
and some of those are well supported, how does a customer differentiate
between high quality and low quality? Or well support and not well supported?

The best strategy for a consumer is to buy a cheap device that meets their
needs and if it doesn't then it was cheap enough that they can replace it.

------
dmart
There hasn't really been a must-have iPhone hardware feature since Touch ID.
The faster speeds of newer models are nice, but for the vast majority of
people, anything back to a 5S is perfectly adequate.

And that's a good thing - encouraging a culture where everyone throws their
phone away for the newest shiny thing every single year is incredibly
wasteful, even if it is good for AAPL shareholders.

~~~
jcadam
TouchID means nothing to me. I mean, it would be nice if it worked - I have to
disable TouchID on my devices. It simply _does not_ work on me.

Though, I have trouble with fingerprint scanners in general (have to disable
them on laptops also).

~~~
davymac
I have big scar on my thumb and it still works great for me. What do you find
is most problematic about it for you?

~~~
jcadam
Mostly the fact that it just can't seem to read my fingerprints with any
consistency. Now, I have problems with dry skin, so my fingertips are usually
a rough, flaky (and therefore constantly changing) mess, so...

~~~
aoner
Try setting the same finger multiple times as different finger "profiles"

~~~
jcadam
Tried it. It works for a few days and then stops.

I've also had a frustrated government worker at a military ID office pull out
the old-school ink and paper cards after failing to get a good read on their
fingerprint scanner. I'm just a mutant :)

------
jostmey
I love my old phones because they were better! If old phones are a problem for
Samsung and Apple, they have only themselves to blame. My Nokia candy bar
phone and my iPhone 4 just worked! The interface was simple and intuitive. I
can't say that about the latest iOS

~~~
resonator
For the last year I've been using old HTC phones from 2010. The HTC Wildfire
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Wildfire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Wildfire)),
then more recently the HTC Desire
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Desire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Desire)).

If you accept that they won't do everything a modern smartphone can do, and
limit how you use them to what they are good at, an old phone can be great.

They take a bit of work to set up right. You need to find and download old
APKs for the applications you want to use. All the one-click rooting tools
have vanished from the internet (but I've been able to get root in adb using
psneuter).

Google Maps works great. Moon Reader is awesome for ebooks. SMS is good enough
for messaging people (you need to tell your friends that you can't read
emoji's). Google Authenticator looks even better. Applications of that era
often had an offline mode so it doesn't matter much if their APIs are no
longer compatible. MessagEase make an amazing keyboard and the latest version
still supports Froyo. You can do CalDAV and CardDav with a little help.

The default browser won't load a lot of modern sites because either it can't
render the JS or it doesn't support the cypher that it's encrypted with. I
keep JS disabled, and I don't care if I can't visit some websites.

I found that the Wildfire's screen's white turned blue after they were heavily
dropped. I broke three or four that way but it didn't matter much because I
could always get replacements for around AU$20. The Desire seems to have a
more sturdy screen but they have more circuit boards inside and I've had a
harder time finding reliable phones. I buy them for about AU$30 so, still it's
affordable to take a chance and buy them up until you can make a complete
phone.

If you're thinking about going back to a dumb phone, I think that an old
smartphone running Froyo has most of the advantages of the dumb phone with
none of the disadvantages of a smartphone (Gingerbread is probably good too
but I haven't used it since it was current).

~~~
Tsiklon
That painpoint with the default browser you mention is likely down to SNI
(Server Name Indication) not being supported on Android Gingerbread and below.
So some websites will not work in HTTPS for you.

For a phone, anything running Ice Cream Sandwich or higher will be fine with
the default browser

------
Piskvorrr
Or, from the opposite side, the phone makers' failure to meaningfully innovate
is not a problem for me, as their older models provide enough value.

~~~
lotsofpulp
Seems like it's actually a problem for the owners of Apple and Samsung equity
who have budgeted for ever increasing sales. Which I guess would partly
eventually come down to 401k/IRA owners and pension funds.

------
jcadam
I still want a small, lightweight smartphone with an e-ink display. Phone,
text, navigation, and email are my only must-have features, and an e-ink
screen would be fine for those -- in fact, it would be superior to an LCD.
All-day battery life, I could use it comfortably in direct sunlight (at the
beach, in the car on a sunny day, etc).

EDIT: it occurs to me that such a phone would be a great device for camping,
hiking, etc. -- anywhere where you're going to be unable to charge your device
for a while and/or outdoors.

~~~
hphu
There is the light phone which is almost what you describe.
[https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/light-
phone-2-smartphone-...](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/light-
phone-2-smartphone-design)

I wish it would get maps and email though..

~~~
jcadam
Yea, the lack of email absolutely kills it for me. The turn-by-turn directions
_might_ be a decent enough substitute for maps. But having an actual maps app
would be nice (though it couldn't be as interactive as we're used to with an
e-ink display so I'm not sure how that would work).

I like the basic idea - I definitely can do without social media, netflix,
games, etc. But basic business communication (email!) needs to be there.

------
jiojfekjl
There's no reason to replace a phone when it works fine, and the replacement
is hardly better. These companies have an economic incentive to encourage
waste.

Can we admit that these incentives are fucked up? Much of our society works
this way. This is fucked up. Right?

------
aerotwelve
When every major and regional US carrier moved away from subsidized two-year
contracts a few years ago, I always wondered if this would be the end result.

About 5-10 years ago, almost everyone I knew (including myself) had the newest
phone every 18 months. It was like clockwork. Because why not? The flagship
phones were only $200.00, and the older models were only slightly cheaper.

Compare that to flagship prices today which can start at $800-900! I know that
this was the "real" price of subsidized devices, and carriers covered the
subsidies by charging more for service, but it did get the newest devices in
the hands of regular people. Never before have I seen so many off-
brand/cracked/falling apart phones being used as daily drivers.

~~~
jkira
I feel like this is the real reason that new phone sales are down. At $200,
getting a new phone every two years is a no-brainer. At $1000, it’s more like
my desktop computer... maybe I’ll buy one every 4-6 years, it requires
budgeting for (or debt), etc.

------
walterbell
Some reasons to use an older iPad with iOS10:

\- years of data trapped in functional 32-bit apps

\- iOS11 control center no longer turns off WiFi (security risk)

\- iOS11 airplane mode no longer turns off WiFi

\- iPad Pro 2 echo cancellation doesn't work (4 speakers, too close to
microphones), works in iPad Pro 1

\- iOS11 split screen needs more gestures to add frequently-used app, iOS10 =
single swipe from right

\- iOS11 connection to WiFi captive portal disables external keyboard (!)

Let's not get started on the Macbook Pro 2015.

~~~
zimpenfish
> \- iOS11 airplane mode no longer turns off WiFi

Just tested this and it 100% turns off WiFi on 11.3b3.

~~~
dagw
By default, but you can easily accidentally change that behavior:

[https://www.macobserver.com/tips/quick-tip/airplane-mode-
ios...](https://www.macobserver.com/tips/quick-tip/airplane-mode-ios-11/)

~~~
walterbell
Thanks, that explains what is happening.

------
peterbraden
When they remove headphone jacks and innovate with weird shaped screens, then
there's no real surprise that their sales are down.

------
beeskneecaps
Still rocking the iPhone SE. Fits in my hand, makes phone calls and loads
fast. Don’t need to unlock it with my face.

~~~
jsl1212
What version of iOS are you running? I have an iPhone 6 which I absolutely
loved until I made the mistake of upgrading to iOS11 recently.

~~~
borgel
FWIW, my SE was fine with iOS 11.

------
manyoso
Smartphones have become a commodity, but the execs and shareholders of these
companies are literally paid to not acknowledge that. That's why we get so
many useless features that increase the complexity of the software for
marginal (at best!) improvements.

In fact, I think the pace of technological development and the ability of
these mega-corporations to essentially copy what works has decreased the
timeframes for all true innovations to become commoditized.

Look what is happening to Tesla for instance! They come along with real
innovations, but the head start they gained is being overtaken by the
shortened timeframes necessary for others (Hello GM!) to come along and
commoditize it. Soon the market will be absolutely flooded with all manner of
EV's from the low-end to the high-end.

The window to capture that head start value is shortening.

------
overthemoon
I'm not convinced I need a surfboard-sized tablet thing that can take pictures
of distant galaxies.

------
6d6b73
I'm still rocking my Nexus 5 and see no need to upgrade it. Parts are cheap,
performance is decent. I installed LinageOS, rooted the phone, removed GApps.
Why would I want to spend $1000 on something that could break in a year, and
that I will have no control over?

~~~
BackwardSpy
I'm exactly the same. I'm using the white Nexus 5 that I bought on the day of
release. I recently installed Lineage OS to bring some of the newer Android
features in. I don't see myself buying a new phone for quite some time.

~~~
simmons
I'm glad I'm not the only one still using a Nexus 5. My only frustration is
the delay between tapping on the screen and the desired action occurring (e.g.
in Google Maps). Do you find that ROMs based on newer versions of AOSP make
this older hardware sluggish?

------
colmvp
Quite frankly, I haven't felt a need to install new apps on my phone outside
of needing inspiration for product/design development, hence I'll deliberately
install pretty looking apps for the sake of learning interesting ways of
showing information.

But aside from that, I just need apps for communication (Whatsapp, Message,
Email), video (YouTube, Twitch), discovery (Yelp), and shopping. That's it. So
I don't feel a strong need to really upgrade that often. I feel like I'd
prefer phone manufacturers having 2 year cycles so that they'd make bigger
improvements.

~~~
yoz-y
You can always just ignore every other release, which is what most people do I
suppose. I think that having more releases also enables manufacturers to find
pitfalls earlier.

------
robomartin
The ROI is negative for most users.

I am still using a 4S. I see no compelling reason to upgrade. They have
introduced absolutely nothing of value to me.

In fact, in many ways they have removed value (phone jack).

In other cases they have refused to add potentially useful functionality, a
USB port and MicroSD slot being two simple examples.

And how about multi-user capabilities so I can hand my phone to my kid or a
friend and restrict what they can see and do?

There's more but it seems like a waste of time to speak up, Apple, in
particular, doesn't seem interested in listening --the headphone jack being a
perfect example of this.

~~~
lostgame
When they had the audacity to release an iPad 'Pro' without so much as a
microSD slot or even just a USB-C port, it was almost as much of a slap in the
face as their RAM-soldered, 16GB-limited MacBook 'Pro's...and I'm writing this
from a 2017 MBP.

Apple's obsession with form over function has gone way too far. The ecosystem
used to be at least worth it in the mid-00's.

~~~
wilsonnb
I mean, compared to the non-pro iPad line, the iPad pro has a larger screen
for better multitasking, more RAM, faster processor, pencil support, and
keyboard case support.

I see no problem with calling it an iPad Pro, even if you're not the kind of
professional that it's aimed at.

There are also plenty of professionals who will not more than 16GB RAM in
their laptop. Many are probably still using 8GB without a problem. Again, just
because you need or want features that Apple isn't putting in their devices
doesn't make their devices unworthy of the 'Pro' moniker.

------
blackflame7000
My Lack of Enthusiasm for New Smartphones Is a Problem for Apple and Samsung

------
white-flame
Apple and Samsung's flawed expectations of the marketplace are a problem for
Apple and Samsung.

Don't put the blame on us.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
I'm not sure it's Apple's or Samsung's expectations, rather their
shareholders.

------
ggg9990
I don’t know about Android but Apple manages this quite effectively by nagging
users to upgrade their OS, thus encouraging app developers to save money by
targeting only the latest OS, thus making older iPhones unable to run most
apps.

~~~
dan-0
Android can't easily do this. Each manufacturer and even carrier often bakes
in their own custom features to the OS. Rather than just Google pushing an OS
update, Google has to post the update, then the manufacturer updates, then the
carrier updates... finally allowing the user to have an updated OS. This
process takes months and sometimes over a year to occur if it ever does.

Apple meanwhile is the sole manufacturer for phones carrying their OS and as
far as I'm aware severely limits the ability of carriers to customize the OS.
This means updates are more or less instantaneously available.

There are advantages to Android strategy though, primarily the cost to
manufacture and field a device. Carriers and manufacturers can bundle their
own ad/crapware into the device to offset costs. This comes at the cost of
security and user experience. But, if you get a flagship "Google" phone, such
as a Pixel, you get first access to updates without most of the compromises,
however you're paying flagship prices.

Not to diatribe too much, but as much heat as Android gets in these arguments,
I think the Pixel models are very competitive against Apple when it comes to
quality.

As a developer though, the Android system is hell depending on what you're
doing. We're on API 27 (8.1) and the amount of devices still on 21 (5.0) and
below is nontrivial. Especially outside the US. The changes since 23 (6.0) are
significant (and for the better), but to implement features across such a wide
range of APIs leads to pretty significant bloat and maintainability issues. On
the flipside, I have reasonable assurance an application I build right now
will work on a device three years from now without modification, not so true
with Apple.

~~~
Froyoh
Well said

------
thisisit
The article while acknowledging the popularity of older models but focuses on
refurbished phone market. Which makes me wonder, doesn't Apple already sell
refurbs and they can try to grow in this market?

------
janitor61
Does this mean the "memory shortage" that has been inflating global RAM prices
due to smartphone production demand might come to an end soon?

------
digi_owl
I had a 4.x Android tablet until the USB port died (poor handling by owner
basically), and i can't really get myself to buy a new one (did get a cheap
Windows 10 tablet on a lark though, and frankly i am surprised how well it
works even if i use mostly desktop software on it).

Similarly i have a 4.x era Android phone that i use, that honestly i can't see
a need to retire.

~~~
DrScump
I had a 4.x Android tablet that I had bought to watch downloaded Amazon prime
video episodes while at the gym and such, only to find it useless for that (it
actually wouldn't work for files on SD storage until 5.0). The manufacturer
wouldn't supply upgrades.

So, I tried to root it to upgrade it. I bricked it in the process.

~~~
digi_owl
Ah yes, Android storage.

When launched the concept seemed to be that "internal storage" was the emmc,
while "external storage" was the SD card (or equivalent).

Then came the idea of faking an SD card on the emmc via partions, but SD cards
were still an option (but no standardized mount point any longer because it
was used for the faux SD partition).

Then came 3.1, and Google changed up the permissions such that "external
storage" permissions only applied to the faux SD parition, and new "media
storage" permissions were needed for actual SD cards (but still no official
mount point, and the write to SD permission was reserved for system, aka
bundled, apps).

This state persisted until 4.4/5.0 where Google introduced the Storage Access
Framework. Effectively the new name for accessing SD cards via the mediaserver
APIs. The mediaserver being the daemon that indexes all user storage areas and
makes the results available to music and video players (and also handles USB
storage connections via the MTP protocol).

Supposedly all this was done so people would no longer be surprised that they
could not access the SD card from both inside the phone and the PC when
connected via USB (because Linux requires that a partition is unmounted
locally when exposed over the UMS protocol).

But that would not require that more stringent media storage permissions.

Frankly those permissions reeks of being introduced because of MAFIAA arm
twisting. Not only is the naming interesting, but Google made a grand
unveiling of their music and movie sections of the then Android Marketplace
(now Google Play Store) soon after.

~~~
netsharc
Ah DRM. Copy music from computer to phone. Try to play music on Chromecast.
Nope, "side-loaded" music can't be played on Chromecast...

But you can "upload" all your MP3s to Google Play Music store (like Apple)...
somehow they don't ask how you got those MP3s, it's like cleaning up your
(perhaps illegally gotten) music...

~~~
eythian
That's not DRM. That's because the Chromecast can't store media, and requires
it to be streamed. Google play music doesn't want to stream - probably because
it will eat battery, or just because they know/think that few people sideload
music. You can just upload it and stream it from their servers, or find and
app that will stream from your phone and accept the battery loss. I'm pretty
sure these exist.

------
neonate
[https://outline.com/jrkVcg](https://outline.com/jrkVcg)

------
bfrog
In reality the functional difference at this point is low for new devices.
Also when you spend $1K on something you don't expect it to degrade so badly
in a year or two like these devices do... And certainly have low incentive s
to replace it

------
hesk
Since Apple sits on 285 billion dollars cash, it can't be that big of a
problem.

------
Overtonwindow
iPhone 6 Plus here. It works. The battery is still good. Why upgrade? Three
years strong.

~~~
draugadrotten
> Why upgrade?

Camera was the reason I upgraded from 6 Plus to 8 Plus. The new camera is a
lot better, which matters to me since I've got kids.

------
paslnyc
Much affordable and better specification phones are available in the market.

------
DoreenMichele
I don't fall in love to serve the profit motive of large corporations. Maybe
they need a different business model if they think I should.

<\-- Snarky knee jerk reaction to title without even reading the article.

------
acd
It is planned obsolesce. Cell used to have user replaceable batteries. Cell
phone now have glued to the device batteries, cases that cannot be opened by
consumers. The screen is also glued to the cell phone frame so that is hard to
replace. After a while the operating system of the cell phone either get
slower or there is no security updates.

Apple is fighting the right to repair your devices.
[https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/apple-right-to-
repair_u...](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/apple-right-to-
repair_us_5755a6b4e4b0ed593f14fdea)

"Prevention of repairs"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence)

~~~
overcast
You can still take it to Apple or 3rd Party to replace a battery relatively
cheaply in comparison to a new phone. My 6S is like a brand new phone after
the new battery.

~~~
gpapilion
Same here. It took 15 minutes and it works great again.

