
A Mystery Font That Took Over New York - asnyder
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/21/nyregion/new-york-storefronts-mystery-font.html
======
kazinator
Almost all the shops in the sign photos are Asian. Because the font simulates
brush strokes, it adds an Asian element, since Western writing doesn't use
brush strokes.

Brushes may be used in painting letters onto a sign, but only as a tool to
fill an area, whereby brush marks are regarded as artifacts to be avoided.

The font doesn't look quirky to someone whose native writing system's
canonical form is rooted brush strokes.

Basically this remark in the article nails it:

> _This could have to do with what Choc evokes. For some it bears a
> resemblance to the calligraphic forms of Asian writing systems._

But then:

> _However, it’s disputed as to whether Choc was a direct homage to these
> styles. According to Ms. Chamaret, José Mendoza, Excoffon’s assistant at the
> time of Choc’s production, said that the letterforms were drawn in outlines.
> “Never with a brush!” she said._

That hardly counts as an effective dispute. Obviously, the font painstakingly
captures the appearance of brush strokes in exactly the same manner that Asian
fontographers do in certain fonts. They also don't use brushes, but rather
vector graphics: precisely specified outlines or strokes.

Choc is undeniably Asian influenced. Look at the C in Choc; it starts with a
little right tick and then reverses. The roman letter C doesn't have anything
like that; this is reminiscent of the top stroke in the Japanese こ (ko).

~~~
rebolek
Exactly, it's not very mysterious, it looks like kanji and that's why it's
used by Asian restaurants. Case solved.

~~~
tschwimmer
Unfortunately they can't publish the GP's (convincing) comment in the New York
times.

~~~
kazinator
However, I could easily write the sort of twaddle that the NY times seems to
consider publishable nowadays.

------
vanderZwan
> _“There’s an unmistakable energy in all the designs that [Roger Excoffon]
> does,” said Tobias Frere-Jones, a Brooklyn-based typeface designer. “They
> project their personality so clearly. And it’s very obviously not Helvetica
> or not Times or any other generic thing that might be on the awning next
> door.” Excoffon’s most popular typeface is probably Mistral, which was
> modeled after his own handwriting._

Both this passage and Exofon's fonts remind me of Henry van der Horst, a Dutch
graphic designer who basically has a monopoly on Dutch market signs. His work
has become so ubiquitous that a market stall without it feels less
"authentic", so there is a lot of demand for his work.

It's crazy: _everyone_ here knows his handwriting, without knowing it was one
man doing all of those signs for decades, and when I say "all those signs" I
mean that at a national level (altough the Netherlands is small of course).
He's like a weird kind of anonymous household name ("anonyfamous?"). Well,
until a newspaper wrote an article about him down a few years ago, that is.

[0] [http://www.willemverweijen.nl/henry-van-de-
horst/](http://www.willemverweijen.nl/henry-van-de-horst/)

[1] [https://www.volkskrant.nl/mensen/-op-de-markt-doet-
niemand-a...](https://www.volkskrant.nl/mensen/-op-de-markt-doet-niemand-aan-
jargon-~bc16a6f6/)

~~~
52-6F-62
Funny! Reminds me of the old Honest Ed's signage here in Toronto (since shut
down).

[https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/04/01/8-of-honest-
eds-...](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/04/01/8-of-honest-eds-most-
iconic-hand-painted-signs-up-for-sale.html)

[https://toronto.citynews.ca/2016/10/19/iconic-honest-eds-
sig...](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2016/10/19/iconic-honest-eds-signs-up-for-
sale-one-last-time/)

~~~
vanderZwan
Gorgeous, the connection is pretty clear, yeah! Makes me wonder if the
handwritten signs from the last century couldn't be considered one of those
kind of undocumented, almost subconscious arts "traditions". Kind of like how
all kebab places seem to follow the exact same horrible aesthetic without it
being a coordinated effort.

~~~
egypturnash
Oh there is plenty of documentation on these sorts of things, in the form of
tradecraft manuals. The first example that comes to mind is the Speedball
lettering manuals ([https://www.printmag.com/design-inspiration/the-speedball-
te...](https://www.printmag.com/design-inspiration/the-speedball-textbook/))
but there’s other ones out there that have gone through many printings.

~~~
vanderZwan
Very cool, thanks for the link and the terms I should search for online if I
want to learn more!

------
needle0
Ironically, come over to Japan and you will hardly see a single sign typeset
in Choc, or any of the popular wonton fonts[1], anywhere. This is despite the
fact Latin text is very commonly used in JP storefronts as decorative
elements. The collective impressions around those fonts represent a
westerner's orientalist stereotype of the East, not of the _actual_ East. To
an Asian native, it comes off as cheesy as hell.

I usually find most complaints of cultural appropriation frivolous; go ahead
and dress up as ninjas or wear kimonos all you like, we don't care! But this
in particular keeps bugging me somewhat, as hardly anyone - even the writer of
this article - seems to care about that angle much. Even in the logo for
Disney's Big Hero 6[2], which I assume was supposed to be Disney's love letter
to JP pop culture, wonton font influences die hard. (At least they de-
wontonned the logo for the Japanese release, retitled as "Baymax."[3])

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonton_font](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonton_font)

[2] [https://vgboxart.com/resources/logo/8390_big-
hero-6-prev.png](https://vgboxart.com/resources/logo/8390_big-hero-6-prev.png)

[3]
[http://www.lightweight.tokyo/3ds/baymax_hero/images/catch/lo...](http://www.lightweight.tokyo/3ds/baymax_hero/images/catch/logo.png)

~~~
LeonidasXIV
Of course the lettering in Japan is not set in faux-asian typesetting since
you already have real-asian typesetting everywhere else. Latin typesetting is
mostly added to add a sense of occident stereotypes (to the point where the
latin writing makes little to no sense, similarly how Superdry's Japanese
slogan makes no sense to Japanese speakers), writing it in a brush stroke
would defeat the purpose of such styling.

This is also why you don't see fake-cyrillic writing in any country using
cyrillic because it is just odd and meaningless to readers to these scripts.

------
wtian2000
Interestingly, this hiring ad from the JS console :-)

main.js:14 0000000 000 0000000 111111111 11111111100 000 111111111 00000
111111111111111111 00000 000000 000 1111111111111111111111111100000 000 000
1111 1111111111111111100 000 000 11 0 1111111100 000 000 1 00 1 000 000 00 00
1 000 000 000 00000 1 000 00000 0000 00000000 1 00000 11111 000 00 000000 000
11111 00000 0000 000000 00000 00000 000 10000 000000 000 0000 000 00000 000000
1 000 000 000000 10000 1 0 000 000 1000000 00 1 00 000 000 1111111 1 0000 000
000 1111111100 000000 000 0000 111111111111111110000000 0000 111111111
111111111111100000 111111111 0000000 00000000 0000000

NYTimes.com: All the code that's fit to printf() We're hiring:
developers.nytimes.com/careers

update: Those 0s and 1s formed an ascii-art style nytimes logo. The format is
messed up.

------
barbegal
This font is also known as Staccato 555.

It was ripped off by Bitstream and included in the Bitstream TrueType Font
Pack for Microsoft Windows 3.1

For some information about these fonts see
[https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.fonts/y3BOdTKSg...](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.fonts/y3BOdTKSgc0)

~~~
saagarjha
> This font is also known as Staccato 555.

It’s mentioned in the article that it was packaged as part of CorelDraw under
this name.

------
Alex3917
See also:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonton_font](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonton_font)

------
pgtan
After watching "Stranger Things" with my son, we play now Spot-The-Benguiat-
Font everywhere.

------
smcl
There's a font I'm curious about, I wonder if anyone here knows it. I seem to
see all round Czech Republic, I don't know the name, but you can see it in the
sign for this place (the pic outside - "BUN CA HAI PHONG"):
[https://www.tripadvisor.cz/Restaurant_Review-g274714-d116867...](https://www.tripadvisor.cz/Restaurant_Review-g274714-d11686718-Reviews-
Bistro_Hai_Phong-Brno_South_Moravian_Region_Moravia.html)

It's used a lot in Vietnamese restaurants but also appears in random
businesses (garages, hairdressers). I also saw it a lot when I visited Vietnam
- I'd guess it's from there.

~~~
bdsa
Banco? By the same designer and mentioned in the article.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banco_(typeface)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banco_\(typeface\))

~~~
nwellnhof
I remember seeing Banco everywhere on storefronts in France when I was there
on holiday as a kid in the 80s. I immediately recognized it because it's also
the font of the Thrasher magazine logo. Back then, I found it hilarious that
every third boulangerie and charcuterie had that "Thrasher" font. I've never
seen it on a German shop sign, though.

------
evo_9
In case anyone wants to see the font in question and/or purchase and download
a copy:
[https://www.fonts.com/font/itc/choc](https://www.fonts.com/font/itc/choc)

------
smacktoward
_Paul Boegemann was trained as one such sign painter — he is the proprietor of
Paul Signs Inc., in Greenwood Heights, Brooklyn — and has been in business for
over 35 years._

 _“I learned how to hand letter signs and trucks,” Mr. Boegemann said. “We
started with a simple pencil and paper. We designed what we wanted and used
the styles we wanted and knew how to apply...”_

 _Asked if he’s ever made a sign in Choc, Mr. Boegemann said: “This style is a
‘Bastard’ letter style.”_

I like this guy :-D

~~~
yuchi
AFAIK the term is how brushed typeface are called in the industry.

------
jejones3141
Oops... they either let Kumo II slip in or intended it to be there as an
example of Mistral, the other font from the designer of Choc, and forgot to
point that out.

~~~
kupaka
The "Japanese Cusine" below the shop name is the specimen, not the shop name
itself.

~~~
jejones3141
Aha... thanks!

------
ConceptJunkie
Hey, it's better than Papyrus.

------
croisillon
I remember how incredible it was to have so many different fonts in Windows
3.1, Staccato was one of the favorites in my family

------
andrethegiant
Oh no... now I will not be able to unsee.

------
swah
Hint: its not about Helvetica.

------
nvr219
What about Matura

------
msla
An off-brand Comic Sans, then.

------
ChuckMcM
Looks like Comic Sans to me :-)

~~~
vanderZwan
Obviously you're not a golfer.. I mean typographer :P

I can see why it might remind an untrained eye of Comic Sans, but I strongly
disagree. Then again, I have an arts degree, so let's chalk that up to
_déformation professionnelle_.

The funny thing about Comic Sans is that you can see that it is from the
nineties computer era. Although I don't know if it was first created on paper
and then transferred, or created directly on a computer, its curves feel both
too mathematically "perfect", and at the same time ruined by human
intervention. This is probably best highlighted by fonts that attempt to "fix"
Comic Sans, like Comic Neue[0]. It's a bit like how tweening in computer
animation can feel off when it uses naive linear interpolation, because it
breaks our intuitions of normal physics (or is maybe that's just me).

Choc on the other hand is very clearly (to me) a font that was created before
the digital era. The brushstrokes feel natural in a way that we could not
create from within a computer medium until recently (thinking in the order of
decades). _And yet_ , its feels more consistent with itself than the comic
sans letters do. Furthermore, if you view it in the context of designs from
the fifties it just "fits", you can see that it was a products of its time
(same with Comic Sans and Microsoft Bob being visibly a nineties product,
actually - and that is not me throwing shade on either of them).

[0] [http://comicneue.com/](http://comicneue.com/)

~~~
Baeocystin
Is there a book/resource you would recommend to someone who is interested in
learning more about typography, and how/why the field has evolved the way it
has? (Honest question.)

~~~
vanderZwan
I'd love to help, but typography wasn't my direction. It's just that any
training in the visual arts bleeds into other visual arts. Apologies, I should
have been more clear about that in the previous comment.

Sure other people here _do_ know more on the subject though, let's hope
they'll see your question and give some suggestions.

------
zadler
How is it that in 2018 with all the decentralised technologies that have been
created we don’t have a simple way to mirror nytimes articles... perhaps on
some kind of “permanent web”?

~~~
toyg
We don’t have a _legal_ way.

FTFY

~~~
ssadler
We have a technical method to do so, but the site has not been created, that I
know of. For example:

* A domain name like ipfs://nytimesmirror.com that mirrors nytimes articles (at the same relative URLs) * Some kind of crowdsourced process for content curation.

I'm aware that it's not legal, but I wouldn't be against it. Content piracy
has been a catalyst for change. I simultaneously would be willing to pay
nytimes for access to their content but I'm not willing to sign up to a $15 /
month subscription. So if their content was widely pirated using delivery
method like IPFS they might be incentivized to problem solve that for me.

~~~
matt4077
> Content piracy has been a catalyst for change.

Yet paying for content has been a catalyst for...content.

> they might be incentivized to problem solve that for me.

What is that even supposed to mean?

------
bitwize
The article misses the obvious: the font resembles Asian brush strokes, and
will be especially used for signage on Asian restaurants which are
disproportionately represented in the examples.

~~~
superhuzza
Literally from the article:

"This could have to do with what Choc evokes. For some it bears a resemblance
to the calligraphic forms of Asian writing systems.

However, it’s disputed as to whether Choc was a direct homage to these
styles...There’s no denying that Choc has become a typographical shorthand for
Asian-themed restaurants."

