
Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes (2013) - Tomte
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22751415
======
SJSque
Here in the Netherlands, they tend to kick the mother out of hospital as soon
as feasible after the birth (typically after one night, or even on the same
day), but as soon as you get home, the home nurse (kraamzorg, or "cradle
care") arrives. She (and, as far as I know, it's always a she) will be at your
home for something like eight hours a day for the first week or so after the
birth, and will teach you how to care for the baby (even if it's your second,
third, fourth, ...) and will monitor its health and progress. Remarkably, in
the 'downtime' (e.g., when the baby is sleeping), she'll do household chores
for you (such as clothes washing, vacuuming, washing up, etc.) and maybe even
entertain any older children or go grocery shopping for you. The system works
really well, and I've heard it be credited for the Netherlands' low infant
mortality rate.

My family back in the U.K. can hardly believe it (especially the household-
chores part); there, as I understand it, the mother tends to stay in hospital
a big longer (typically for a few days), but once you're home, you're on your
own...

~~~
flarg
From personal experience in the UK, you're kicked out of hospital after a few
days during which you received amateur advice from nursing assistants and a
final discharge check for the baby if the doctor is available (if not then you
have to go back for the discharge check). Back home there are irregular visits
from a nurse who usually writes random statements in the a red log book but
aside from that you're on your own. If you have time for the internet you
might learn about why a baby doesn't latch and then maybe find a private
lactation nurse who may or may not give you useful advice. Maybe one of them
has heard of tongue tie because the NHS doesn't believe in it (and they're not
allowed to support anything but breast feeding...)

~~~
Spare_account
I would like to add my own anecdata that conflicts with this. We've had four
children and our experience of ante-natal and post-natal care has been nothing
like this for any of them.

The home visits are regular and scheduled, breatfeeding advice was offered in
hospital, a breastfeeding support clinic is run for free in our local hospital
once a week and on other days in local community centres. Two of our children
have been identifed as tongue-tied by midwives _in hospital_. The midwives _in
hospital_ provided formula for the most recent baby when my wife was having
trouble feeding.

Overall, we've felt very supported by the NHS. I suspect the difference is
partly timing, every team contains good staff and bad staff. It probably
differs region to region as well, I'm in Buckinghamshire.

~~~
thom
Ours is a teaching hospitals trust, and a fairly large one I suppose, and we
have had good experiences each time with our three children. I think there can
be a big difference if you end up in a medical-led ward instead of a midwife-
led one for the actual birth, but I expect there's lots of variance beyond
that.

------
andrewaylett
Scottish babies too, as of a couple of years ago! The baby box is great: it's
given to all parents pretty much automatically.

It's got everything a totally unprepared family would need to look after the
baby for the first few days. Even as a not-completely-disorganised family, it
was nice to have. And giving it to everyone is probably cheaper than trying to
work out for which parents that level of support is necessary ahead of time.
Not least because families who need the support are probably the least able to
find it.

I'm very happy that my tax money is spent on preventative efforts, rather than
relying on fixing things up after they've become critical.

~~~
organsnyder
I love the universality of these programs—there's no stigma attached to using
them.

For our firstborn, we (in Michigan, US) used a county-provided program that
included a quick home visit and a small welcome kit (nothing as elaborate as
described in this article). While it was not presented as being only intended
for impoverished/unprepared families, we couldn't help but feeling that we
weren't their target audience, given our income level and family support.

All too often, US social programs are paternalistic "help the needy" regimes,
often with intentional stigma (to supposedly cut costs through reduced
utilization). IMHO, this is harmful for everyone.

~~~
rtkwe
Part of the problem is any universal program gets attacked for helping people
who don't 'need' the help and that being a waste of money. And on a certain
face it's true, cutting some people out of a program will make the top line
number cheaper but will also require administration and get into fights about
just who needs what.

It's one reason so many new social safety net programs are being suggested as
variants of Universal X now, they're much less likely to get cut because
everyone gets it and it's harder to do the whole 'welfare queen' style racial
coding if the program goes to everyone.

~~~
henrikschroder
In Sweden, parents automatically get money from the government for each kid
that they have, regardless of their income.

This has been criticized numerous times, but every time it turns out that it's
just cheaper to pay out the money to everyone, than to have some sort of
needs-based evaluation machinery that you have to staff with people who have
to make judgements, pisses people off, and then the whole system can be gamed
anyway.

~~~
P_I_Staker
Here in the USA we'd prefer to spend a thousand dollars, to prevent someone
from getting a hundred, because "they don't deserve it".

------
moksly
I’m happy to have had my baby in Scandinavia. We read up on all sorts of
literature for preparation, but it’s an ocean of disagreeing information, but
because having a child is hard, you’re assigned a nurse educated in infant
well being by the government for free.

They help you with a range of things, one is to setup a sleeping setting where
there is minimal risk of the baby dying. Not too warm, always sleep on their
backs, have room to move stuff like that.

As usual Finland is just better at Scandinavia’ning than the rest of us. Good
job Finland!

~~~
tyfon
Here in Norway we my wife and I stayed in a family room in the hospital
"hotel" both times, but the last time I left the next day with our older
daughter and my wife joined with the youngest a day later.

We both automatically get two weeks off work as a birth leave and option to
have a "jordmor", what you would call a midwife in English, visit and help if
needed. Then we had ten months of parental leave combined, I had four months
and my wife had six.

One thing foreigners freak out over is that during the day we have the babies
sleep outside in the strollers in winter. They're usually wrapped in wool
materials and are very warm. Is this common elsewhere in Scandinavia? They
sleep very well out in the cold :)

~~~
willyt
Used to be common in Scotland too, not sure about England so much. Me and my
brother were put out in the front garden by my granny!

~~~
falsedan
Can confirm it's still going; our first was an autumn baby and had his daytime
naps by the open tenenment window. Sash and case barely keeps the cold out
anyway when they're closed!

------
JimWestergren
Earlier on HN:

261 comments in 2013
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5817728](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5817728)

262 comments in 2016
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12547353](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12547353)

Let's see if this time it gets 263 comments.

~~~
wruza
It could be not just an arithmetical progression, like A(260, m). If this one
gets 523, we better not discuss it fourth time ever.

------
vnorilo
I'm a happy recipient of this box 5 years ago. In the fog of the first days of
learning to care for your newborn, it was a godsend. It felt like someone
actually cared, rather than a bureaucratic handout.

~~~
stevekemp
I'm not ashamed to admit that I cried when I unpacked ours:

[https://imgur.com/a/I0NYI](https://imgur.com/a/I0NYI)

Even now I recognize other children wearing the same clothes that we received
- though our child is 2.5 now the items have obviously been passed along to
neighbours and new siblings.

~~~
kellenmurphy
Thanks for the photos. You can tell that they are nice items and -- coming
from the perspective of an American -- don't look "government issued" in the
slightest. Neat.

------
padobson
It's good to see tax money spent on such a comforting program. I think it
lends to a sense of national pride when policies like this lead to good
feelings in the citizenry.

That said, I think articles like this contribute to science illiteracy and
innumeracy.

A layman could easily come to the conclusion that the baby box caused the drop
in infant mortality after reading this article, but infant mortality has been
dropping everywhere over the the same time period, regardless of policy.[0]

While the article does briefly mention the Finnish government's broader
support for new families, like the free health checks early in pregnancy that
is actually incentivized by the box, it doesn't include the overarching
worldwide, postwar technological and economic trends that have been driving
infant mortality down everywhere.

The whole piece reads like a very literal endorsement of the nanny state,
rather than a celebration of human flourishing that it could have been if
written in the proper context of broader trends.

Edit: Almost all the replies (and I suspect the downvotes) to my comment are
making my point. I wasn't disparaging the box or Finnland's broader policies
to combat infant mortality. I'm disparaging the article's failure to paint
Finnland's progress in the context of a wider trend of lowering infant
mortality AND Finnland's broader efforts to do so. That failure leads to
overly simplistic conclusions that contribute to scientific illiteracy and
innumeracy, exactly like the conclusions below.

Does anyone believe Finnland could provide these services without the broader
technological and economic progress?

[0][https://ourworldindata.org/child-
mortality](https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality)

~~~
lr
Here are some infant mortality numbers from your link:

1947: Finland: 6.5% US: 4.3%

2013 (when the article was written): Finland: 0.3% US: 0.7%

How can the tiny country of Finland be so much better at this than the US?
It's because of what they talk about in the article, i.e., a government
actually caring for its citizens (read, "welfare state").

~~~
pkaye
Not sure about Finland but some countries have different criteria for a viable
baby. Basically if a baby is born too early or too low a weight they are not
counted in the statistics. So you you need to also count for these
differences.

------
jpalomaki
There's also a "hidden agenda" behind this supply box.

In order to receive it, the mother needs to sign up for a health check
(provide by the public health care system) and I believe you are supposed to
do that before the 5th month of pregnancy.

This gives the opportunity to detect potential problems early on, offer
guidance if there's reason to suspect substance abuse and so on.

~~~
yitchelle
It seems like a good direction to heading. Not sure why it is considered as a
hidden agenda.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Because it's not expressly stated to the people who are subject to it.

~~~
phatfish
Right... I'm not sure how you end up going to a health check at a hospital
"without realising it".

This is a case of a state providing exactly the sort of support to their
citizens we could do with far more of.

------
irjustin
I love this and wish it were a more widespread practice.

Baseline education of infant care is difficult for low income families.
There's just too much to deal with.

A cardboard box will appear crude to many, especially those of higher income,
but the cardboard box removes a lot of the guess work about what's allowed in
while sleeping - which is essentially nothing.

Anyone who's had an infant before - there's too much conflicting information
and it's downright scary because it's difficult to know what's right/wrong. I
love this establishes a clear baseline.

~~~
philliphaydon
When my Daughter was born everything said do not let the baby lay on their
side or tummy. I tried hard but she turned to her side every time you put her
down. If she was on her back she would wake and cry. I spoke to my mum and she
said when I was a baby I slept on my tummy, as did my brother and sister. None
of us slept on our side or back. We just made sure we bought a breathable
mattress so if she ended up face down she could breath. Now she’s almost 1 and
sleeps however she feels. Which is usually cuddled up against me while I feel
stressed all night.

~~~
rhino369
Putting a baby to sleep on their stomach is a SIDS risk factor, but not if
they switch on their own. But nobody really tells you that last part.

I kept flipping my daughter over until I spent some time googling it.

------
tutuca
Here in Argentina we had that program canceled by the current President
Mauricio Macri, and the former was prosecuted for pushing for this program to
be implemented nation-wide. There was also a big media campaign from the local
multimedia monopoly to lay shame of the program [1][2], although it covered
way more items than in Finland.

The boxes (qnitas) were left to rot in a warehouse. Trully fascist.

This was later found to be without basis and the goverment have been ordered
to restart the program, without effect.

[1] [https://www.clarin.com/politica/paso-paso-fraude-
licitacion-...](https://www.clarin.com/politica/paso-paso-fraude-licitacion-
qunita_0_rJrp8aOPme.html) (in spanish)

[2] [https://www.lanacion.com.ar/politica/plan-qunita-
inseguros-c...](https://www.lanacion.com.ar/politica/plan-qunita-inseguros-
cunas-nid1871615) (in spanish)

~~~
shitgoose
i would use a lighter term to describe rotting baskets. words have meanings
and "fascist" means something else.

~~~
Gabriel_Martin
Related: I've begun to put people who are extra-pedantic about the word
fascist into their own little silo.

~~~
dang
I don't know what you mean by extra-pedantic but the site guidelines ask users
not to call names in arguments, and that certainly covers the F-word.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
whafro
Just before my kid was born here in the US, we got two boxes from Finnish
families, and they were great.

It was approximately 100% of my son's wardrobe for the first several months,
and we actually did have him sleep in it for a couple weeks early-on, putting
the box on a (large, well-supported) stack of books next to our bed before we
moved him into his own quarters. The clothing was unique (in the US) and
attractive in a very Scandinavian sort of way, and held up really well. We've
passed most of it on to other families, and each piece has probably been used
by three or four different kids at this point.

I did a significant write-up on it here:
[https://www.care.com/c/stories/580/a-year-with-the-
finnish-m...](https://www.care.com/c/stories/580/a-year-with-the-finnish-
maternity-box/)

NB: It was on Kinsights back when that existed, and Care.com's redesign kinda
botched the formatting. Sorry to myself and others!

------
_carl_jung
Social policies work best when it appears the government is doing something to
actually care for the population. It sounds like such a great way to help grow
a healthy new generation. Investing in the youth!

~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
Yes but it needs a desire to be helped on part of the populace. If the popular
narrative is that anyone receiving govt help is receiving handouts[1], as is
the case in the US, there's little that can be done that won't be seen as
shameful charity.

[1] Unless the handouts are in the form of tax breaks for big companies, in
which case they are the most patriotic thing to do.

~~~
ptah
> "shameful charity" I can't imagine what it must be like to live in a society
> where charity is seen as shameful

~~~
cjslep
It is rooted way way _way_ back to the Puritan ideal of doing the hard work
yourself and not needing to rely on anyone else to succeed.

~~~
alkonaut
One big difference to the scandinavian mindset is that children are much more
seen as individuals than dependents belonging to their parents. If it's
unacceptable that a child is less successful because its parents _did not work
hard_ (or any other reason they aren't well off) then a lot of social welfare
programs will follow naturally.

For example, having time with parents (parental leave) is a right of the
_child_ , not a luxury for the parents. In that perspective it's much harder
to frame tax-financed parental leave as a handout to the parent. Without it,
some children would miss out on something through no fault of their own.

~~~
thefz
On the other hand, I've had female coworkers carefully plan pregnancies to
chain the maximum amount of paid leave. Others taking as much paid leave (100%
pay, then diminishing, then almost nothing) as possible and then resigning on
the first day coming back to work. It's a double-edged sword, in most cases.

~~~
alkonaut
Resigning on parental leave is probably common, but on the other hand the paid
leave was at least not paid by the company. And at that point the company will
most likely have a trained temp, so seen that way it's not a bad time to quit
(although you could of course have given that notice a while before
returning).

Maximizing the use of paid parental leave I see as pretty much a given. I
don't think many see it as the most important factor for planning a pregnancy,
but I absolutely want to maximize the amount of paid leave I can take. My kids
are 6 and 8 and I still do multiple weeks of parental leave per year.
Typically doubling my summer holiday from 4 to 8 weeks or similar. It's a
benefit I have paid for many times over. There have been suggestions though
that this is an unncessarily luxury and it would be better (for children) if
parents had to use the majority of the parental leave before age 3 instead. I
kind of agree.

~~~
thefz
I'm on the opposite side on this issue, I don't like publicly funded leave nor
benefits and as a taxpayer this kind of opportunistic behavior further cements
my view that the state should not spend public money into helping parents.

~~~
alkonaut
> spend public money into helping parents.

For these policies to be even remotely understandable I think the key is as I
said to fundamentally see it as money spent towards _children_ , not parents.

~~~
thefz
Fine, but downvotes for a civil discussion?

------
SamColes
My wife read this exact article from 2013, purchased a 'Finnish Baby Box' from
a private company that makes and exports them from Finland, and our baby slept
in it for his first seven or eight months. It actually turns out the idea for
the company itself was inspired by the same article too. Here's the follow-up
from 2016
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35834370](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35834370)

------
ksab
When I was pregnant (in Canada), I watched a series of videos about safe sleep
and got a free Baby Box (Telus sponsored it):
[https://www.babyboxco.com/about/](https://www.babyboxco.com/about/)

Baby arrived 2 months early. When we brought him home 6 weeks later, I was
amused by the contrast. Going from a fancy NICU bed to a cardboard box was a
big change for him. He didn’t mind and slept in it for 5 months.

~~~
areoform
That’s so adorable :)

------
marsvin
We got our cardboard box yesterday. It sure does help. Lot of clothes for the
upcoming xmas package. Suitable clothing for even -10 °C naps outside.

From CPS professional point of view this box rocks. Absolutely a perfect thing
for young mothers without the usual social network. Just if they would choose
the box instead of money...

------
eggfriedrice
When this last came up on HN, the Scottish Government was in the process of
rolling this out. It seems to have happened and baby boxes are now given to
all newborns: [https://www.parentclub.scot/baby-
box](https://www.parentclub.scot/baby-box)

------
nirse
Just wanted to point out that Scotland has a baby-box scheme inspired on the
Finnish: [https://www.mygov.scot/baby-box/](https://www.mygov.scot/baby-box/)
It was introduced after our wee one was born, though, so can't comment on the
content, but friends seemed to be quite pleased with it.

------
frankbreetz
They actually do this in some states in the US. I live in Ohio and I received
a box when my son was born. It's very nice and I hope everyone, especially the
people who need it are aware of the program.

[https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2017/03/26/5213993...](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2017/03/26/521399385/states-give-new-parents-baby-boxes-to-encourge-
safe-sleep-habits)

------
atourgates
Just thought someone should start a company that lets people purchase the
Finnish baby box worldwide - I know I would have if it'd been an option for
any of our kids.

Looks like someone already has:

[https://www.finnbin.com](https://www.finnbin.com)
[https://www.finnishbabybox.com](https://www.finnishbabybox.com)

Didn't expect them to be $300+ though. I wonder what the government is paying
for these.

~~~
sbercus10
Hi @atourgates - Shawn (Founder of Finnbin) here. Not all of our baby boxes
cost $300+ - our most basic baby box starts at $65
([https://www.finnbin.com/products/babybox-
boxinet](https://www.finnbin.com/products/babybox-boxinet)).

To answer your comment & questions: The reason our most expensive box (The
Finland Original) costs $450 is because it contains over $700 worth of stuff -
at least on the shelf if you are purchasing each item individually. For a bit
more insight, the bulk of that cost is the organic clothing that we include.
Also, baby boxes have a lot of volume (or dimensional weight if you want to
use the shipping jargon) so baby boxes are incredibly expensive to ship.
Because most consumers would be shocked at the actual cost of shipping, we've
factored shipping costs into the total cost of the box.

To answer your question about what the government pays for these: Finnbin does
have contracts with hospitals, insurance companies, and government entities
who typically purchase hundreds boxes at a time and often thousands - The
average metro hospital does about 1,500 births per year. Like any other
product, volume orders obviously get a price break and because baby boxes take
up so much space, they also tend to receive the boxes on a pallet shipped flat
- which can also lower their costs. Each government order is slightly
different and thus there is no specific cost to a government entity, but they
still pay in the hundreds of dollars if they are purchasing the baby box
containing all of the goods.

Happy to provide additional insight if you'd like.

~~~
atourgates
That's great - glad someone is offering this. Any plans to offer Scotland's
box?

~~~
sbercus10
Unfortunately, Finnbin is not the current supplier for Scotland's baby box
program.

~~~
atourgates
Oh nice - that's a distinction I didn't understand. You're saying that your
company actually supplies the boxes given away under Finland's program, and
you make those same boxes available to consumers?

I was imagining you and your competitors would either obtain the boxes from
the assembler/manufacturer directly or assemble close replicas. Not that you
were the actual supplier.

~~~
sbercus10
Not exactly. Although we do supply healthcare organizations and government
entities domestically and abroad, we are not the suppliers for Finland. The
Finnish baby box program is conducted by Kela, a Finnish government agency in
charge of settling benefits under national social security programs.
Unfortunately, they took some heat earlier this year for their labor practices
to make some of the products they include in their baby boxes
([https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finnwatch_majority_of_fin...](https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finnwatch_majority_of_finlands_baby_box_products_made_in_sweatshop_locations/10596896)).

From what I understand, the company Finnish Baby Box (based in Finland) uses
the same products from the same suppliers and makes those same boxes available
to consumer.

Finnbin, the company I founded, manufactures our own boxes and sources the
materials for our box from US-based companies who utililze managed forestries
and are certified to Sustainable Forestry Initiative (SFI) standards, created
to promote responsible forest management.

And, although the original Finnish government program was the inspiration for
our product, we've tailored our product offering to the American consumer and
with American brands. For example, the Finnish baby box contains a regular
sheet rather than a fitted sheet. This would not adhere to the American
Academy of Pediatrics safe sleep recommendations. Therefore, we include a
fitted sheet custom to the waterproof mattress we provide.

Additionally, much of the clothing in the Finnish government boxes program is
designed for a much colder climate than we're used to here in the US. Rather
than including similar products that many people wouldn't likely use, we've
replaced them with more universal clothing and products.

------
bananatron
I visited Finland recently and everybody was so proud of the baby box! I hope
it gets more popular worldwide.

------
GreaterFool
Even simple help/reminder can make a big difference. I recall a bunch of
research on how simple checklists in operating rooms improve prognosis by a
_huge_ margin (and yet they aren't as widely used as they should be).

------
artur_makly
“Not for long. At the turn of the century, the cloth nappies were back in and
the disposable variety were out, having fallen out of favour on environmental
grounds”

im guessing this is a non-starter for most Americans? i remember seeing an
editorial [1] about how in American Prisons ..they are charging the family of
prisoners a huge fee to send their $ to the inmate..and how one mom had to
choose between buying diapers or supporting her husband with prison
toiletries. She said it was a very hard decision to make.

1- [https://youtu.be/AjqaNQ018zU](https://youtu.be/AjqaNQ018zU)

------
m0tive
Follow up from 2017 "Do baby boxes really save lives?"
[https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-39366596](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-39366596)

"[...] leading baby box companies sells its products as an essential gift for
new parents, claiming studies have proven the link.

I asked the company if I could see these studies, but they said that studies
showing positive results had not been published yet. Experts say that there
are no studies showing the efficacy of baby boxes."

~~~
cushychicken
Likely because it's not selling them that's the beneficial part: it's the
"giving them to everyone for free" part.

~~~
collyw
I bet the company is selling them, otherwise it would be a charity, no?

~~~
cushychicken
Right, but what I'm saying is that the study they are citing likely shows the
results of parents being _given_ a baby box, not _buying_ one.

I don't think buying vs giving is important per se. I'm just saying that the
aggregate data will likely show more benefit from people being _given_ the
boxes, as that will have more impact on people of lower means.

------
newsreview1
What a fantastic idea. As a new mother, I cannot tell you how nice this would
have been to get from the hospital. Luckily, the nurses we had were fantastic,
and I had an older sister who gave me many hand me down materials. Some of the
materials she gave, I had no idea what to do with, but because I had them, I
asked, and they turned out to be extremely helpful. I can only imagine how a
box like this could help a less educated, or person with less economic means
than I had. Way to go Finland.

------
dekhn
This reminds me of the Skinner Air Crib
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner#Air_crib](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner#Air_crib))

------
pier25
Finland also has some of the best primary and secondary education in the
world. I work in an education company and we regularly make trips to Finland
with teachers to show them how modern education should be.

------
Waterluvian
We got one of these kits when my first was born. Having an easily mobile sleep
space is the best thing ever. ( Canada)

------
sbercus10
Shawn, founder of Finnbin Baby Box Company, here. Happy to answer any
questions there might be about baby boxes.

------
mwenge
This is what a society looks like.

------
honksillet
Why condoms? Finnish birth rates are at all time lows.

~~~
snuxoll
For the health of the mother it’s wise to space pregnancies apart, by 18
months according to the WHO. There’s increased risk for a lot of things for
closely spaced pregnancies, so the condoms are a pretty good idea.

------
known
Developing world can imitate it

~~~
sa-mao
I see a lot of corruption opportunities that would make this inefficient if
not dangerous in most 3rd world countries. I think They should start by
rethinking their governance, moral values first.

~~~
AFascistWorld
This is worth over a hundred dollars, not a small amount for many countries, I
can totally see corners being cut everywhere at every level if implemented in
China, recipients will probably just throw it out upon receipt if they don't
want to do harm to their babies.

------
kchoudhu
Of course, this symbol of egalitarianism provides the ideal concept for
companies to exploit for financial gain:
[https://www.finnishbabybox.com/en/](https://www.finnishbabybox.com/en/)

~~~
loriverkutya
We are living in the UK and we ordered this one. If we buy the items one by
one, we would ended up paying more for it. Both me and my wife was super happy
with the box and my daughter slept in it for about 6 month (we also had a cot,
but we realised very early that the box mobility is an unbeatable feature)

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ncmncm
"Politicians lie, cast-iron sinks; politicians lie in cast-iron sinks"

~~~
sethammons
Baffled by your comment, some research shows that it is a play off of logic
with AND and OR, subbing in IN as a preposition to alter the entirety of the
statement. While I find the word play silly, I think the phrase's usefulness
ends there.

What point are you trying to make?

