
Ask HN: 10 years in software development and can't move the needle anymore - throwaway103
Throwaway as my other account is in good reputation on here.
Have been in various professional roles in programming, including developer, tech lead, product manager etc. Into my 30s and feeling bummed. I work at a reputed software development firm, the team is good and it&#x27;s good overall.<p>But over the past few months I cannot move the needle anymore. I feel incompetent and ineffective. I even took a break for a week to figure out what&#x27;s wrong. Could not reach any conclusion. It just seems meaningless to continue working. I can&#x27;t retire as I have to earn to live. Life has seemed to lost meaning and interest. There&#x27;s a constant feeling of anxiety in what I do. I feel I am not doing justice to things.<p>Thoughts of suicide did cross mind, but it&#x27;s not something I will do. I have absolutely no idea what&#x27;s going on and what I should do. Hope this does not get flagged to hell. Thanks.<p>Any advice?
======
meric
Quit. Screw programming. Screw being a tech lead. Screw managing products.
Screw moving the needle. Screw trying to be competent and/or being effective.
Screw trying to figure out how to continue working. Screw retirement. Screw
finding interest and meaning in life. Screw this anxiety. Screw trying to do
justice to things. Screw figuring out what's going on. Screw figuring out what
you should or shouldn't do. Screw worrying how much money you have and how
long that will last you. Your anxiety tells me you don't want to worry about
things, but you do. So don't. Screw it all.

Pack your things. Fly to another random place on Earth. Roll a dice if you
have to. Figure it out from there. Your only mission - screw the rest of the
world and enjoy yourself.

If you are anxious about permission. Here, I give it to you.

Here's a piece of advice I tell myself every time I feel like you do: "Forget
all preconceptions. About myself, about the world. Just wing it. If everything
falls about, let it fall apart. Screw it. I'm a man, I'll live. Fun. Remember,
fun."

You don't want to kill yourself. You want to kill your idea of who you are.
Let the idea of you die, but you? You live and go on living.

~~~
lgieron
> Fly to another random place on Earth. Roll a dice if you have to.

If you happen to roll Syria or Eastern Ukraine, roll again.

~~~
throwaway103
I guess Ukraine is quite fine, Syria perhaps not. I have always wanted to live
in a European country for a while. I have spent a few years in the US and
liked it (Not an American). I feel Denmark, Germany or Norway are places I
would love to stay and work. That's actually something I would be excited
about.

~~~
lgieron
The reporting on the war in Eastern Ukraine is trending down in most of
Western media, while the actual war is not. I'd advise against going there
without at least doing solid research (the rest of Ukraine is fine).

As for living in other countries, IMO the best thing you can do is - pick a
low cost of living country with people and climate that suit you, and work
remotely. Even if you start with zero savings, you'll be able to retire in
5-15 years.

~~~
throwaway103
No doubt. I am just comparing Syria with Ukraine :)

------
sharmi
As others have suggested, you might benefit from a professional's advice.

Besides that, maybe this is a burnout? If so, there have been several threads
on how to tackle it on Ask HN. Maybe some of them can help. If it is burnout,
one of the best ways to tackle it is to take a hobby in a field completely
unrelated to tech. It should be something in which you can see tangible
results/finished item in a few hours of work. That can help you calm your
nerves, give you the euphoria of having a completed project on hand and serve
as a good diversion in general. Breaking the constant worry about the current
career and focusing on something completely unrelated might also yield a
breakthrough insight on what you actually want from your current career, which
you can translate to actionables.

~~~
afarrell
Do you know of a good way to find a professional who works with programmers
and sysadmins in particular?

~~~
throwaway103
Absolutely, if not here at HN, there are multiple subreddits at reddit.com
that will help you find some contacts that are local to you.

Please PM me if you need help with it.

~~~
afarrell
> multiple subreddits

Which ones? You're on your throwaway account, so I can't PM you. However, I
actually think this is the sort of resource that should be publicly known to
the HN community. Given the high frequency with which we talk about mental
health in software, we should have a ready set of recommendations. I am
planning on starting a thread about it, so if you'd be able to PM me (my email
is in my profile), that would be of use.

------
RUG3Y
I had a similar crisis recently. I was feeling really incompetent. I realized
that there are other things in my life that are important to me that I've been
neglecting. Side projects, music, what have you. Work is just work, and I
allowed myself to invest too much self-worth into the situation. I don't know
if this is helpful to you, but it was helpful for me to take a step back from
my job and realize that when I die, nobody is going to remember me for the
great career that I had. If anyone does remember me, it will be because I was
kind to them, or because I impacted their life in a meaningful way. Changing
the priorities that I'm focused on helped me to feel a lot better about work
and life in general.

*edited grammar

------
MarlonPro
Please talk to your loved ones. Like the other said, please seek professional
help. You're still young. You can still do a lot of things.

Search for meaning. Start with your Why.

~~~
throwaway103
I have asked the WHY. I have been quite ambitious since my childhood. I have
had grand plans to be a neuro-surgeon, but it failed, then I wanted to be a
physicist, but couldn't, then I loved programming and made it into a career. I
love everything about it, but I am not as good as I would like to be. My
ambitions sometimes hurt me. I wonder at how Elon Musk, Richard Branson and
Bill Gates do it, and how I can't. It's quite infuriating.

Thanks for your kind words.

~~~
lgieron
> programming (...) I love everything about it, but I am not as good as I
> would like to be. I wonder at how Elon Musk, Richard Branson and Bill Gates
> do it, and how I can't.

For one thing, you're probably way better programmer than Richard Branson is
:)

On a more serious note: not everyone is wired for a massive success - for
example, not everyone is capable of consistently working 100 hours per week
(like Musk). Also, even if you are (I have a friend who could probably beat
Musk in an iron man-style workaholic marathon) massive success in business is
still mostly down to luck, which is another factor (apart from genetics) that
you can't control. In the grand scheme of things, it's far better to accept
who you are and be happy about the good things than be butt-hurt about not
being a billionaire.

~~~
AndreyErmakov
That last part is truly a good advice. Striving to become somebody one is not
meant to be is only going to make one profoundly unhappy in life. What's
worse, one will probably be wasting their potential given by the universe by
refusing to do things one is meant to do. Being at the wrong place in life and
not accomplishing anything by the end of the road will only make a negative
personal contribution to the human civilization (in the grand scheme of
things).

------
emilburzo
I won't try to diagnose you over the internet from 3 paragraphs.

But please try and take care of the 3 essentials:

* eat

* sleep

* exercise

It might not solve what you're feeling, but if those are taken care of at
least somewhat properly, you'll buy yourself more time to figure out what's
happening.

~~~
throwaway103
Yep, that's the bare basic I am trying to do, and it's helping in a very
limited way.

------
kasey_junk
See a competent mental health professional.

~~~
partisan
Given your thoughts of suicide, however unlikely they may seem, I believe this
is the only correct answer. You aren't just having issues at work if you are
thinking yourself down that path, even in the slightest.

Also, see someone now. Things like this can snowball and it's a lot easier to
become you again when you are a little depressed than when you are very
depressed.

Take care.

~~~
throwaway103
The urge to commit suicide is not strong, it's an amusing thought that crosses
the mind. I am highly unlikely to do it because I would rather kill myself for
a cause than committing suicide, like getting into military and killing some
terrorists. Seems I might have a hero complex :) So I won't go down and out
silently.

------
sidcool
Sometimes it's a down period in life. You can take a break for a month or so
and travel. Just go away. Learn something else. @meric's advice, however
extreme, can be applied in partial. Think hard.

------
threesixandnine
I have an advice for you.

1\. Go and build a telescope -
[https://stellafane.org/tm/atm/](https://stellafane.org/tm/atm/)

It involves manual labor and thinking as well. Grind that mirror. Make sure
you finish it and then go out and see the stars.

2\. At your job do absolute minimum and go home as soon as it's possible.

3\. Go out and do some charity work. By doing it you're not only helping
others but helping yourself as well to feel better. It's kind of an egoistic
thing as well but who cares.

~~~
RUG3Y
This is good advice. I stopped trying to go above and beyond at work. Now, the
rest of my time is spent doing projects I really care about. Since then, I: \-
Self-published an art book \- Started a band \- Started building a few
software projects I've been interested in for a while \- Spent more time with
my kids goofing around, consciously trying to lighten up and have fun

------
b3b0p
You have to make an effort to find something that excites you or you look
forward to. Preferably on a regular basis, daily would be the ultimate goal.
Just think, waking up to something you look forward to every day! Jumping out
of bed every morning, looking forward to the day.

What do you like to do? Do you have any previous hobbies? Start a side project
(that you can finish) and look forward to working on after work. Join an
online game community (Team Fortress, Overwatch, Call of Duty, etc). Don't
like games, what about a book or movie club?

Do you have any recreational sports leagues you can join? I used to play ice
hockey, but wouldn't mind joining a roller hockey league where I am (Austin)
or maybe flag football or kickball even.

Is there something you want to do or experiment? I've always wanted to build
something with Lego Mindstorms and program it myself.

When was the last time you went to a meet up or hung out with some friends?

When were happiest? What were you doing? Who were you with?

Is there anything you can do at work to make it more enjoyable? Can you ask to
be moved to another department? Take on new or different challenges? Do you
feel challenged at work? Can you tell someone you want to try something new?

Maybe just try and take things less serious. Don't be so defensive and perfect
about life. Have some fun and relax. Do you like comics, movies, anime, books
(fiction), video games? Maybe you can try one and experiment. For me, I want
to go back and try and play and beat all the old NES and Genesis games I never
finished as a kid because I was too impatient.

These are just random ideas. For example, I have a backlog of video games,
anime, comics, and side projects. I also have just found a new friend and we
already made plans to go out. I'm moving into a new apartment that's an
upgrade from my current and it has Google Fiber, I'm super excited for that.
My parents are bringing me a couch and TV in a month too and I look forward to
sitting in something besides my bed or desk chair. Not to mention look forward
to seeing them for the first time in a year. I'm joining a new gym and look
forward to meeting and seeing new people there as well as partaking in a class
or two for fun, it's a good way to meet other people. I try and attend meet
ups when nothing else is keeping me busy or I'm bored.

Bottom line, you have to try and stay busy and you have to make the effort. It
requires work if you aren't use to it. You can't dwell on the negatives like
you seem to be doing. Good luck, I hope I sparked some ideas for you.

------
tmaly
Pick something up that can get your mind off things. Start hiking, plant a
garden, take up wood working, learn meditation. I find it nice to take a break
from coding.

If you really like programming, but are not thrilled with the tech or projects
at work, pick a side project you can do outside of work that will let you grow
and learn.

~~~
sharmi
I doubt side project is the right thing at this point in time, unless it is
something you can complete in a day. It looks like the OP needs to be away
from his computer and side projects that don't work out can be more
frustrating than your daily job and may cause OP to spiral further into
depression.

------
AndreyErmakov
It is a distinct possibility that you are suffering from the lack of
meaningful personal achievements in your vocation of choice, which your
subconsciousness recently began to realize and which is why it started poking
you to do something about it. Normally, this sort of things starts to happen
exactly in one's 30s.

Here's a thing that many (if not most) people working in IT don't realize.
Practical software development is actually a creative profession. It's not
pure science, it's not plain engineering (even if it has the elements of
both), it's mostly a design discipline where outcome directly correlates with
the skills and the personality of the human(s) involved. People who enter this
field are often enthusiasts, tinkerers, inventors, in a sense artists. They
like to create things with their own hands, things that do something
interesting, meaningful and useful, and when they succeed then they get happy
all around and their life becomes full of meaning and purpose. It happens to
be true for most creative professions, you cannot just practice it as a
routine, as a job, it has to be giving your life a meaning and the sense of
accomplishment.

However, doing software development as a job does not help you advance on that
path. You may have had a formally successful career, as you say you started as
a simple programmer, moved up and eventually you reached a leadership
position, but apparently that did not fill your life with meaning. I have no
doubt that in your time you've completed multiple projects, implemented
numerous features, solved important problems of your customers and so on. But
the trouble is, those were all someone else's goals and other people's
objectives. Despite that in the process you probably contributed many useful
ideas and had personal input which directed and influenced the work, you only
did the bidding of others. You solved the problems and built the things with
which you cannot personally identify. Now you look back at your career and you
recognize that for a lot of effort you've put in you have no tangible
achievements made by your hands that you can be proud of. You need to see
something for the work of your life, your legacy if you will, something to
leave for the posterity, for the world, but you see nothing of that sort. And
that's the root of the problem.

Here's what you say:

>> It just seems meaningless to continue working.

>> Life has seemed to lost meaning and interest.

It feels like yours is exactly the kind of problem I'm talking about. I might
of course be wrong about you, this is not the ultimate diagnosis of any kind,
but from what little information you've given us, I think this might be it. It
would be helpful if you gave us more context and more details about your
situation, otherwise it's not easy to figure out what you're going through.

As to what might be the remedy, it all depends. If you really love software
engineering and feel it's your calling in life, then you should start looking
for ways to use your skills and competences to do something that in your mind
would be meaningful. It might be a side project or even a small startup of
your own. You have not mentioned any of those therefore I assume you have
none. You might consider one now. But it must not be a dummy project to simply
have a project of your own or to dive into a new technology to have a sense of
novelty. Those won't help. It's not about tools or the process (both of which
you've mastered), it's all about the personal achievements (which you
supposedly lack). You should think of something which would contribute in some
useful way to the society, to solving real problems of real people, to making
their lives easier, not about adding more forms and more rules to some boring
enterprise software or fixing bugs in some opensource project. You need to go
higher and it must be all yours, the entire pie not just some crumbs of it.

You may also want to explore another career path. If you have an inclination
towards some other line of work, perhaps design or photography, you may
consider giving it a go as an experiment and seeing how it works out for you.
Personally, I've discovered that writing provides a quality diversion for me
and is turning into a real passion. You too may have some buried talents which
might benefit from your technical background. It's possible to use your
knowledge of software engineering to give a major boost to your other
abilities and make a difference on that alternative path.

I hope this helps you in your search for answers. Of course I might be
mistaken about your condition and there might be something else that is
happening with you. You are well advised to seek counselling assistance to
help you out of the woods. Good luck and hold on. Don't take any radical
actions before figuring out exactly what's been going on with you, or you may
acquire additional troubles to your misfortune. Wait till the sky clears and
only then begin considering where to go next.

~~~
throwaway103
Thanks for a detailed explanation! I really appreciate it.

You are right in saying that I have not tried my hands at startups. I do have
side projects that worked for some time and then were put on GitHub as open
source (they were not particularly earth shattering ideas).

My inclination has been towards Physics and computational biology. I have been
a science fan since childhood, always wondering about the intricacies of human
body and the humbling vastness of space.

I am keeping a low profile for now and will focus on the bare minimum
necessary and will take further decisions from thereon.

------
throwaway103
Also, are there any other threads where people have asked similar questions? I
have searched HN and found a few, but if you know of any, please do share.

~~~
zzzcpan
Search for burnout. People ask these questions pretty regularly here.

------
Zelmor
Find a hobby to fill the void in your days. Move countries if you can, and
travel.

