
Myers-Briggs: Does it pay to know your type? - Libertatea
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-leadership/myers-briggs-does-it-pay-to-know-your-type/2012/12/14/eaed51ae-3fcc-11e2-bca3-aadc9b7e29c5_story.html?tid=socialss
======
tokenadult
From the article: "Yet despite its widespread use and vast financial success,
and although it was derived from the work of Carl Jung, one of the most famous
psychologists of the 20th century, the test is highly questioned by the
scientific community."

Yes. Here are some references about that.

<http://www.skepdic.com/myersb.html>

[http://www.psychometric-success.com/personality-
tests/person...](http://www.psychometric-success.com/personality-
tests/personality-tests-popular-tests.htm)

"Overall, the review committee concluded that the MBTI has not demonstrated
adequate validity although its popularity and use has been steadily
increasing. The National Academy of Sciences review committee concluded that:
'at this time, there is not sufficient, well-designed research to justify the
use of the MBTI in career counseling programs,' the very thing that it is most
often used for."

[http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/HRMWebsite/hrm/articles/deve...](http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/HRMWebsite/hrm/articles/develop/mbti.pdf)

[http://www.amazon.com/Cult-Personality-Testing-Annie-
Murphy/...](http://www.amazon.com/Cult-Personality-Testing-Annie-
Murphy/dp/0743280725)

~~~
adrianhoward
I'm a Pisces... sorry... I mean INFJ ;-)

I get terribly depressed by how often I see folks take MBTI seriously.

~~~
objclxt
> _"I get terribly depressed by how often I see folks take MBTI seriously"_

About four years ago I worked briefly for an IT department at a large
university. Every staff member at a certain level had to have a one-to-one
with the CTO shortly after joining.

About a week before my one-to-one I received a folder from the CTO's PA. It
contained:

* The CTO's Myers-Briggs test results _in their entirety_

* A two page document entitled "How to talk to our CTO", based off said test results

* A discussion of why the CTO's results made him suitable for his job

Needless to say, the guy was a _huge_ jackass and I didn't stay there very
long. Do a personality test if you want, but don't let the test dictate how
you're doing your job.

~~~
tokenadult
_Needless to say, the guy was a huge jackass and I didn't stay there very
long._

The jackass in question should have read the references about the Myers-Briggs
test that I've already submitted to this thread (above in this same
subthread). And he should also have done some research on company hiring
procedures

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4613543>

so that he knew that what really matters for his organization is whether or
not his colleagues can do their work. He should have worked harder at
developing himself as an effective CTO.

~~~
specialist
Agreed: CTO should have focused on his/her own development.

My SO works in sales/mkgt. That segment relies heavily on personality and
aptitude tests. My SO swears by them. Says it helps identify prospect's
weaknesses, to better help them succeed. I'm dubious, but it's hard to argue
with success.

I'll chew thru all those links you provided. Thanks.

------
rickmode
The only useful thing I got from MBTI and the related training was that
different people think and communicate differently; sometimes very
differently. People work differently and you can't treat everyone the same;
and different people need styles of communication. This was in the midst of
leadership training in an organization that had one set of guidelines for
performance reviews and promotions.

So like most management training / classes, this insight is fairly obvious but
mostly ignored.

~~~
vickytnz
I agree on this, and think it's particularly useful to do with younger people
for this exact reason. I did it as a Masters student with some colleagues, and
it was an eye-opener for showing how many of us had different priorities in
terms of work and working styles. (I think for the cerebral types it can also
be something of a relief to realise you're not just weird!).

------
aw3c2
Single page, distraction free, print view:
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-
leadership/myers-b...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-
leadership/myers-briggs-does-it-pay-to-know-your-
type/2012/12/14/eaed51ae-3fcc-11e2-bca3-aadc9b7e29c5_print.html)

------
personlurking
Whether it's scientific or not, I think it makes sense for some people. It's
not based on where the moon was when you were born or something like that, and
for that reason I don't oppose it too much. For ex, I'm more of an introvert
than an extrovert and that is obvious to me and others. Therefore, to say that
I'm an I instead of an E is just a true personal statement. Am I a thinker
more than a feeler? Also yes. Again, most people who know me know this.

------
surement
I mostly dislike Jung's work, and I'm generally very skeptical about any IQ or
personality test. However, after being convinced to try this one by a friend,
essentially doing it so that they would stop asking, I found the results to be
shockingly accurate, and subsequently found this to be the common reaction for
people that happen to have the same type. In my ongoing skepticism, I've read
explanations and definitions for several other types, pretending they were
mine, to see if I could somehow relate to all of them, but failed miserably.
The wording was never vague, as in the case of astrology, for example, and the
descriptions of my type all precisely described me, personally. Up until now,
I presumed that this would be the case for everybody, but I see a lot of
dismissal here. I would conjecture that either those people did not actually
find their MB type, or that the results only appear to be impressive for
certain types, like mine. To be fair, this was the first time that I answered
one of those tests truthfully. During school, I'd give the answers for which I
assumed I'd be less scrutinized for; for work, I'd give the answers I assumed
were more likely to get me promoted.

In any case, I found finding my type to be beneficial. The typical interview
question "tell me about yourself" was always the one I dreaded the most, and
finding my type has not only increased my awareness of who I am, but given me
a way to explain it to others as well. The results have also brought me to see
that I may not always be right after all, and that people who agree with me
might simply belong to the same or similar category. Put differently, I now
think that different types, while most of them clash with me, are necessary
for the functioning of society, and I don't need to agree with them, or them
to agree with me. Note that "live and let live" is apparently a defining
characteristic of this particular type, which I got a good belly laugh
discovering by reading another comment. It's funny to find out that you're a
lot more deterministic than you'd be willing to admit.

~~~
thaumaturgy
Think of it this way: you (presumably) answered a series of questions about
your behavior, and then, based on the answers to those questions, you got back
a result which describes your behavior.

That doesn't invalidate whatever value you derive from it -- having your
behaviors read back to you can be just as valuable as asking a trusted friend
about their opinion of you -- but you do have to be careful not to allow
yourself to be constrained to a particular type.

I accidentally cured myself of this around 10 years ago when I first
discovered the MBTI by immediately joining the INTJ-Open mailing list. The
only not-regrettable outcome of that, for me, was that I learned that self-
identifying as "INTJ" was a stupid thing to do.

~~~
surement
> The only not-regrettable outcome of that, for me, was that I learned that
> self-identifying as "INTJ" was a stupid thing to do.

Are you sure you're an INTJ? If so, why was it stupid?

~~~
thaumaturgy
Mainly because self-identifying as _any_ MBTI type is a stupid thing to do (I
just didn't realize it until I interacted with a bunch of other people that
self-identified as one). It can lead to silly conclusions like, "well, I'm
right-handed, so I can't be good at art."

The INTJ-Open list was filled with people whose favorite hobby seemed to be
arguing, even when it was just arguing about arguing. They were some of the
most eloquent and logical dense people I've ever read. They justified some of
their more egregious antisocial behavior as "being INTJ", which seemed to me
to be about the dumbest possible response. They agreed on nearly nothing --
for a bunch of self-described rationalists you'd think there'd be at least
some kind of trends in, I dunno, socio-economic thinking, or education, or
something.

After a while I naively suggested that it might be a good habit to work on
self-improvement a little. Y'know, go to the occasional party or mixer, have a
drink, talk to people; chat with people in line at the store; let people say
silly things without embarrassing them in front of others; treat people nicely
even if you disagree with them; that sort of thing. The stuff that normal
people do. IIRC, the most common response was that I must not be an INTJ. I
got a couple of messages of support, but strictly off-list; the supporters
were afraid of being ostracized on-list.

And that's when I realized that this group was Mensa, but more argumentative
and with lower requirements.

I have an exceedingly low opinion of Mensa.

Anyway, I was really glad that saved me from going around "acting like an
INTJ" (jerk) all the time, and I realized that I had just accidentally dodged
the real danger of the MBTI stuff: that it encourages you to put yourself into
a tiny little box.

~~~
surement
>> Are you sure you're an INTJ?

> IIRC, the most common response was that I must not be an INTJ.

Again, I had a great laugh finding out that questioning other people's
INTJness is seemingly an INTJ thing to do.

Part of the way I see it is that doing the test is a good way to find out what
you might want to work on (as you suggested with self-improvement), and that
should be relevant to every type. For example, if you're an I, learn some
conversation skills; if you're an E, you don't _need_ to always say what's on
your mind. I can see the trap of finding it an excuse to be unpleasant to
others, however.

------
sandycheeks
Any discussion of Myers-Briggs always makes me remember this quote attributed
to Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord.

"I divide my officers into four groups. There are clever, diligent, stupid,
and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined. Some are clever
and diligent -- their place is the General Staff. The next lot are stupid and
lazy -- they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine
duties. Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest
leadership duties, because he possesses the intellectual clarity and the
composure necessary for difficult decisions. One must beware of anyone who is
stupid and diligent -- he must not be entrusted with any responsibility
because he will always cause only mischief."

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_von_Hammerstein-Equord>

~~~
CamperBob2
Interesting fellow. He had the _cojones_ to tell Hitler to step back, he
actively worked to undermine the Holocaust, and he still managed to die of
natural causes.

His quote is reminiscent of the almost-axiomatic truth that the best
programmers are lazy ones.

~~~
Mz
My sons like to say "Lazy is another word for efficient".

------
mcfunley
A thousand times no. I was asked to take one of these at my first job out of
college and loudly refused.

> The framework itself has barely changed since Katharine Cook Myers and
> Isabel Briggs created it decades ago

One could take this as yet another sign that there's nothing scientific going
on here.

~~~
shawn-butler
Why would you refuse? If it were so abashedly unscientific it should be easy
to manipulate the outcome to achieve your desired type.

~~~
mcfunley
Apparently what's true is more important to me than what can be exploited? I
don't know, I find that to be kind of a ridiculous question.

~~~
shawn-butler
That's interesting. Given what you know now about corporate culture would your
answer be different today?

I'm reminded of the recent discussion on HN where it was related that a well-
known angel would not participate until he could observe the potential founder
at a social dinner gathering with his or her spouse/partner. This received
lots of comments in support and followups that you need to be friends with
your cofounders. Seems like no less a haphazard, wildly speculative way to
judge s personality.

I remained skeptical. If there has been any insight I have gained with respect
to human interaction is that people are inherently deceitful when there is
something they want. The better at it they seem to get the more attractive or
desirable the goal being pursued.

~~~
namank
Dinner is judging person B's behaviour relative to you.

MBTI is not in relation to you.

~~~
shawn-butler
The context was that he wanted to view the interaction of the candidate with
their spouse not his own spouse in order to guage/divine their personality.
Dinner was just a pretext.

Sorry if that was unclear.

------
diego
No, it's bunk. This is one case in which Betteridge's law of headlines
applies. For most people, your MB type changes with your mood that day, or
with the way you interpret the ridiculously ambiguous questions in the test.

~~~
protomyth
I'm pretty sure its bunk, but took the test when I was 14, 15, 16, 17, 27, and
got the same type each time (ENTP). I was definitely in different moods (the
amount of irritation I felt at 27 taking the stupid thing was amazing).

~~~
namank
What's more amazing is that you keep taking it despite being "sure" it's bunk.

~~~
protomyth
I didn't really have a choice in the matter. I went to a summer program where
it was required and then had a job where it was required. It isn't amazing,
its crappy circumstances.

I still have no clue why it was required at the job since it was never
mentioned or the results even talked about.

~~~
namank
Yeah, fair enough. Job is how I was first introduced to it too.

They could potentially use it to organize you into teams.

~~~
protomyth
To this day, I have the sneaking suspicion that it ended up in some HR persons
thesis. :)

------
chromaticorb
I love these because you basically get the types 'best suited' to managerial
positions by asking yourself 'what would the most conceited asshole say?'

------
Itaxpica
One of the many significant issues with the MBTI is that it's a typology:
you're an E, an N, or whatever else; it's all-or-nothing. As anyone who knows
even a little bit about actual research psychology can tell you, people don't
work like that. Any decent system of examining human personality NEEDS to deal
in spectrums and grey areas.

If anyone is curious about an actually valid personality measurement
construct, check out Costa and McCrae's Big Five Personality Index
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits>). It was designed
based on decades of experimentation and research (rather than the other way
around), and it's been experimentally validated time and time again. It's
basically the gold standard for personality psychologists researching trait
theory. It's a whole lot less sexy than the MBTI, and you won't walk away
being able to say "I'm type XYZ!" (which is a major appeal of the MBTI), but
the things that actually work rarely are.

------
bahman2000
I took one in college and one in grad school (4 years later). Results starkly
different from each other.

~~~
peterwwillis
People change as they get older, and that includes your personality as much as
your interest in foie gras.

------
kyebosh
I thought it was fun. What can I say, I enjoy pop psychology.

Further though, I find it has had a real effect on how I relate to others.
Reading of the different MBTI's, particularly how different types communicate,
forced me to seek to understand the nuances & preferences of individual styles
of social interaction. Sometimes broad personality generalisations are all
that are needed to establish a meaningful channel of communication.

I would recommend doing the test or at least reading the 16 types, if for no
other reason than it forces you to be mindful of the fact that there are many
large & small differences between individual personalities.

------
namank
The four letters indicate the current state of your personality, which is a
function of your maturity, emotional development, and life events. It is only
likely to be accurate for certain types of people.

This current state is a manifestation of a combination of your (Jungian)
cognitive functions - these are mental processes structured in a certain
hierarchy. The sole purpose of life (if you adhere to the principle of growth)
seems to work towards a flattening of this hierarchy and hence, become an
equanimous person.

------
mb_72
MBTI is a data point - it's unwise to use a single data point for
understanding oneself and others.

For me personally, 'my' type accords with the type of person I am and have
been, and - as _one_ aspect of the psychiatric consultations I was having to
sort of various issues - really helped me a lot. And, anecdotally, it gave me
some kind of broad framework for understanding others, their motivations and
actions, something I had struggled with (and still do, I must admit).

------
evolve2k
My understanding was that MBTI is the most valid of these type of tests, if
not MBTI then what should organisations be using? Include links if you have
them?

Also I can't see a test which includes a negative factor such that there is a
'wrong way' to complete it and hence risk potential workplace repercussions as
a valid replacement.

Further I'm sure each big consulting firm has a version which is no more valid
than MBTI.

------
cyberrodent
I would post a comment but I'm an introvert.

------
shawn-butler
I can't really speak to or am very interested in the validity of the
assessment, but that is a pretty impressive startup story. Especially for one
with two women founders given the context.

I kind of wonder if I sent a child to school to do product research today
though if I wouldn't be in some serious trouble.

------
guylhem
Somehow unrelated, but here is a nice poetic definition of a INTP in a
roadtrip (compiler vs amputee)

<http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2012/11/05/at-home-in-a-car/>

I guess it pays to know you can live like that.

------
charlieflowers
What is the most scientifically sound, evidence-based conceptual framework for
uncovering one's strengths and weaknesses? Is there anything at all with good
science behind it?

------
antonb2011
Whenever they tried giving me this test, my score just went off the scale. In
the end, they had to assign me a new type: SEXY. ;)

------
grandalf
Of course there are people who fall on the border between different types and
who will test differently each time they take an MBTI test.

When viewed with the appropriate amount of skepticism it can be quite
interesting to view social and relationship dynamics through the lens offered
by Myers Briggs.

For example, those who are not _NT_ can probably not really understand me in
the way I want to be understood.

