
In war for talent, 'brogrammers' will be losers - mlLK
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/10/opinion/trapani-brogrammer-culture/index.html
======
natesm
> "Wanna bro down and crush some code?"

What? Who would say that, ever?

> San Francisco-based Klout

Oh. Carry on then.

"Brogrammers" are pretty hilarious though. I mean, aside from the utility of
being a "warning, we're a company of homophobes and sexists" alert, I think
that it started as a joke? Then, there were people that didn't realize it was
a joke and started _actually_ using it. I think that's pretty funny.

~~~
vijayr
Am I missing some inside joke? what exactly is a brogrammer? :(

~~~
hdctambien
This is a pretty good parody (demonstration?) of a brogrammer:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi_AAqi0RZM>

He pretty much sums up the entire team I worked with at my last job.

------
DanielBMarkham
I think I'm reaching the end of my tolerance for the word "brogrammer"

I don't tolerate sexism, racism, or bigotry. Period. Whether it has a catchy
name or not.

I have noticed that many of the attributes associated to "brogrammer" are
attributes I associate with immature males.

Here's the thing: I do not believe that shaming immature males is going to
make them more mature. In fact, I think it's going to drive the entire
subculture underground and make it much, much worse. The stories we read about
"brogrammers" in 10-years time will truly be horrific, instead of just frat-
house idiocy.

I have no problem at all with making workplaces more women-friendly, or in
having a zero-tolerance policy. I also expect employees to have natural
personality flaws, like most humans. As long as I don't see it in the
workplace I think accepting people for who they are is a much better life
strategy than giving them labels and sticking them in little boxes for us to
assault en masse. And don't even get me started in the "business of outrage"
where a new syndrome is kicked up and dozens of writers generate millions of
pageviews all clamoring over each other to tell us how bad it is.

To put this in a direct business context, I desperately want diversity in tech
teams. That's diversity in _thinking_ , not in external attributes. That means
the more eccentric the wordviews of those present, as long as they can get
along? It's better for everybody. I'd take violent anarchists, Buddhists, and
Nazis in a team if I could make it work. Just keep the bad behavior offsite. I
do not want to live in your homogenized world.

~~~
tomjen3
Do you have any evidence that these diversity teams actually make more money?

I mean it is a nice political correct speech speech, but feelings have no
place in business (except, possibly, to woe over employees or customers).
Businesses exists to make money.

~~~
weavejester
Saying businesses exist to make money is like saying humans exist to eat.

------
gav
When I see "brogrammer" used I have to fight to not flip the bozo bit for that
person.

It's a bizarre reversal of high school, where people want to be mad at "bros"
for invading the sanctity of the programming world. It's now cool to be un-
cool.

Creating groups to direct your ire towards for the imagined problems of the
tech industry isn't going to help anyone. Solving problems is about being
inclusive, not exclusive.

On a similar note the lynch mob mentality when somebody steps over the line
just means that everyone is going to be scared of going anywhere near that
line. In the long term just this trends towards a boring politically correct
future.

~~~
MartinCron
_the imagined problems of the tech industry_

Are you really making the case that there aren't any real problems in the tech
industry? That's a pretty extreme stance.

~~~
jiggy2011
Clearly not. It's just easier for journalists to write some fluffy piece about
programming culture than it is to write anything profound involving numbers of
whatever.

------
papercruncher
> "Companies that are inclusive, like Facebook, have an advantage in
> recruiting talents, says Gina Trapani"

Didn't the whole brogrammer thing start at Facebook? (hint: yes).

~~~
malandrew
Ooops. I hit down vote instead of up vote by accident. How do I undo it?

~~~
maaku
You can't. Welcome to the post-500 club.

~~~
malandrew
Really? You can't undo votes only after you pass 500? What's the logic in
that?

~~~
maaku
You can't undo votes period, as far as I know (please correct me if I'm
wrong).

500 karma is when you get the ability to down-vote.

------
stcredzero
_That's one small way brogrammer culture is actually useful. It's a red flag
for women..._

The problem with the brogrammer caricature, is that it exaggerates a few overt
features of regular geek culture in a way that overshadows underlying
pathologies in programming shops.

There are forms of intolerance and aggression that have nothing to do with
homophobia or sexism (or any other readily vilifying -ism) but which are still
capable of interfering with vital flows of information. Brogrammers are
nothing more than guys who program and are still operating with much of the
same belief structure they had in high school. They've failed to "make their
beliefs pay rent" with ideas like "hot chicks in bikinis make the world a
better place," "boys will be boys," and the idea that offensive language
"keeps it real."

However there's plenty of that sort of failure to go around in the mainstream
of programmer culture at large, in groups that look nothing like brogrammers
-- in ways that even affect technical decisions.

[http://lesswrong.com/lw/i3/making_beliefs_pay_rent_in_antici...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/i3/making_beliefs_pay_rent_in_anticipated_experiences/)

~~~
tomjen3
So are you saying that hot girls don't make the world a better place? As in
you either wouldn't care or that you would prefer having less hot women?

As for the entire objectifying thing -- when I see something beautiful, being
a statue, a painting or, yes, a girl -- it makes my day better. And what is
wrong with enjoying the beautiful things in life? It would be awfully dull if
we were to go through life as if it was a Catholic sunday school.

Anyway there is nothing wrong with beautiful girls, there is nothing wrong
with smart girls and there is nothing that prevent a girl from being both.

~~~
stcredzero
_So are you saying that hot girls don't make the world a better place?_

They do indeed make the world a better place in some way. That doesn't mean
that they make the workplace a better place.

------
maybird

      Tech start-ups founded by women are few and far between,
      but they're highly attractive to female and male
      candidates who don't want to join a boys' club.
    

My best experiences have been working with, or for, women.

I stumbled on these companies purely accidentally tho. I wish there was a list
of companies that have a better-than-SV-average rate of women.

~~~
MartinCron
That's a list that I would like to see, as well. If there's a strong interest,
I would be willing to collaborate on creating and maintaining one.

~~~
maybird
You'd be doing God's work!

Companies with better-balanced workforces deserve to be recognized.

~~~
MartinCron
I'm an atheist, so that's strange praise, but whatever.

If anyone's serious about setting something up, my contact info is in my
profile.

------
malandrew
Do brogrammers really exist, or at least exist in any number great enough to
worry? I've been to many software engineering meetups and whatnot and I have
yet to meet anyone I would call a brogrammer. This stereotype feels more like
a joke that has taken on a life of its own and the media likes to write about
it like it is a legitimate widespread phenomenon, kind of like they like to
portray climate change deniers as an equally large contingent within the
scientific community as those scientists who support climate change theories
based on human impact.

~~~
roc
> _"Do brogrammers really exist"_

My take was that the 'brogrammer' joke was supposed to be a humorous way to
conflate sexist geek boys-club culture with sexist frat boys-club culture.
Relying on the stereotypical geek instinctive dislike of stereotypical bros to
make them feel shame for being sexist jerks.

In that sense, 'brogrammers' don't really exist, but the undesirable behaviors
absolutely do and absolutely are a problem.

I think the problem is that the joke was really immature and stirred up a lot
of the "us vs them" social nonsense that isn't true and wasn't really
necessary.

Plenty of geeks work out and do physical activities. Plenty of geeks were in
fraternities. Plenty of geeks enjoy the socializing that gets lampooned as
stereotypical frat-boy-stuff. And they may well not be 'brogrammers' in the
sense of being discriminatory dicks - but we're on our way to making them an
out-group and excusing stereotype reinforcement.

------
mtoddh
From the article: "Tech start-ups founded by women are few and far between,
but they're highly attractive to female and male candidates who don't want to
join a boys' club."

I could see how this could be true for female candidates (since gender is a
focal point for them in a male-dominated industry), but as I guy I'm not sure
the CEO's gender is going to make their company a "highly attractive"
workplace to me - I'd be a lot more concerned about their track record and
experience.

~~~
marssaxman
Gender-balanced groups are more interesting and more comfortable than groups
which are dominated by a single gender. I would certainly consider the
presence of women in technical management positions to be a big point in a
potential employer's favor, since it is evidence that they have managed to
overcome the usual boyzone dynamics.

------
driverdan
It's sad to read the comments on the article and here on HN from people who
don't get it. It's not just about the brogrammer joke or bro stereotype. Gina
is embracing it to highlight the problems we have with gender discrimination
in the industry.

My feeling is that much of it is unintentional from men who haven't thought
very deeply about the impact their actions have on women. The negative
comments highlight the cognitive dissonance people go through when they're
presented with facts that conflict with their beliefs or actions.

------
NLips
The article makes no sense: You may as well say "Racist cultures are useful
because they show us who's racist." If the racism isn't there, neither are the
racists*.

------
joedev
I won't work with 'brogrammers' not because of gender issues, but because
their general attitude and ego is just plain sucky to be around all day.

------
EricDeb
Are there really that many of these "brogrammer" start ups around? I find it
hard to believe that they plague the culture as much as some articles have you
believe. At least, it's nothing compared to actual college, where bros own the
social scene and are extraordinarily exclusive towards others (other males
that is).

I do not live in Silicon valley, and have not actually seen of these
"brogrammer" startups, but I imagine it more as a fun joke than a serious,
misogynistic club.

~~~
jordo37
I do live in Silicon Valley and they most definitely do exist. More
importantly though is that the scene in Silicon Valley is dominated by a
single type of person - male programmers. Part of this culture is bro-tastic.
Part of it is geeky. Most of it is some weird munging of the two where two
guys might be comparing their ePeen, their ninja-hacking skills or their lift
reps. Overall it is offputting to diversity which is the real problem.

------
RandallBrown
Nobody is turning down skilled engineers because they don't shotgun a beer at
the interview.

All of this outrage over a joke is ridiculous. Yes, some people have made some
stupid flyers (saying girls are going to serve you beer as you code? dumb) but
most of the time it's just a joke poking fun at the stereotype that
programmers are lame awkward nerds.

~~~
marssaxman
It's also a joke which subtly reinforces the stereotype that programmers are
male.

------
lucisferre
It's somewhat ironic then that the brogrammer term started a Facebook (though
I believe, and hope, it was in jest)

~~~
tantalor
I don't know whether he invented the term, but Nick Schrock (schrockn) started
the popular "Brogrammer" page on Facebook[1] and is a prominent engineer
there[2].

    
    
      [1] http://www.facebook.com/getwiththebrogram (defunct)
      [2] http://www.facebook.com/Engineering/posts/128074377271161

~~~
tantalor
A thread on Quora[1] with comments from Nick suggests the term didn't
originate with him. It's clear he is responsible for popularizing the term.

    
    
      [1] http://www.quora.com/Facebook-Engineering/Who-are-the-people-behind-the-Brogramming-page-on-Facebook/answer/Don-Otvos/comment/416437

------
joedev
The setting of the lead photo looks not much different than the sweatshops
from days of yore.

------
jiggy2011
"Male software engineers don't actually pop their collars, wear sunglasses and
lift weights while writing code and share hot tubs with bikini-clad women"

Says who?

------
huggyface
More words spilled over an invented trend.

~~~
laconian
Yup, CNN's having a conversation with itself.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Maybe next week they'll do a daring expose on hipsters, or those crazy flapper
ladies. What next, women's suffrage?

------
chestercheetaz
This article is fluff, and this is a made-up controversy. Worse things have
been said during presentations, and more objectifying advertisements have
aired. I'm sure Gina boycotts GoDaddy because, based on their advertising
campaigns that contain scantily-clad women, they _must_ be a company full of
misogynists.

This article would have had a larger impact had she instead focused on what
DOES make a tech team work well; if she had focused on the qualities that make
a tech team thrive, and how "brogrammer" culture cuts into that advantage. By
writing a piece on a made-up controversy, she just loses credibility.

------
J3L2404
Calling yourself a brogrammer is the geek equivalent of yelling 'hey baby' out
the car window. These people aren't getting any girls, for obvious reasons.

