

Show HN: Recruit web developers by having them build a web app - ksat
http://www.cull.io/index.html

======
fxm4139
This and the other startups like Interview Street seem to be focusing on the
less lucrative side of the hiring problem. Like Joel Spolsky said, and like I
know from personal experience, my best developer friends aren't in the market
salivating to take interview tests, and do code sprints to prove they are
good. They are passionate about developing, have many great jobs to pick from
at a given time if they tried. If they have free time, they would rather put
it on an open source project that excites them, or a smartphone/web app that
they are making for themselves.

If you look at filtering mechanisms themselves, there are companies that try
to have puzzles that they ask you to solve before joining (eg: ITA software).
But they are really challenging puzzles that I would solve just for fun
anyway, (which is what I did for months till I one day decided to apply for a
job there). The fact that these puzzles are also made by the company (and not
a third party website) makes a difference. It tells me about the people that
work there and potentially about their culture. On the other hand, building a
random web app to prove basic skills is not something I would imagine most
talented web developers would like to do anyway.

If you look at it from the perspective of a company that is hiring, tools like
this solve merely one part of the puzzle. It takes the subset of developers
who are already in the market for a new job and filters them. As a startup
though, what I want to do is lure the great engineers who are content at their
regular jobs and not looking at all because of inertia. It sounds like there
is more of a "search for developers" problem that will expand the breadth of
all the developers available to me, instead of focusing on the ones who are
already out there (and are most likely not the cream of the crop by
definition).

In short, I don't mean to be negative, and am not saying that there might not
be a market for a tool like this. But I am pretty certain that if you are a
great developer, you don't have an incentive to make a web app on this.

~~~
hkarthik
I agree with this 100%. Coding tests and filters like this make sense when we
have a market with an oversupply of developers that need to be filtered out.
Right now, we're in the opposite situation with more jobs than skilled devs.

I think a few companies (Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc) have more applicants
than open job reqs, so for them these types of products have value.

------
Apreche
Want to work here? Do work for us for free! Then maybe we'll hire you
afterwards.

Great idea if you want to hire suckers.

~~~
ksat
OP here. Agree with this sentiment. Even I would not use cull.io to have
candidates build a complex web app that would take days or even hours to
build. I would use it as a tool to "Filter" candidates, not "Select" them.
(It's amazing how the simplest of a coding challenge would filter all non-
coding coders)

thanks for the review.

~~~
exim
I've never been on the other(interviewer) side of the hiring process and I was
on another side only once during the last decade, so I might not have enough
insight, but I really don't understand non-coding coders filtering per se, be
it your method or FizzBuzz... When someone says about their years of
experience in coding in their CV, is it a common case that they're lying?

~~~
adrianhoward
_When someone says about their years of experience in coding in their CV, is
it a common case that they're lying?_

I, somewhat cynically, divide job seekers into four categories:

1) the qualified (I know what I can do, and I can do what you need)

2) the unqualified (I know what I can do, but I can't do what you need)

3) the deluded (I honestly think I'm qualified, but I'm not)

4) the liars (I'm trying to get the job by any mean necessary).

I only want (1).

(2) are easy to deal with - you just have to know what you need.

(3) are common and mildly annoying - especially if you're a nice person and
feel the need to explain where they are deluded :-)

(4) are not common - but are exceptionally annoying and often hard to sort out

Writing a really good job spec / advert will get rid of most of (2) for you,
and help remove all but the most deluded from (3).

Filtering resultant CVs will usually get rid of the rest of (2), and a bit
more of (3).

A quick chat on the phone will get rid of any remaining (2) and a big chunk of
(3).

Simple tests similar to FizzBuzz will cull a surprising amount of (3) and (4).

Interviewing - especially good accomplishment based questions will tend to
filter out all of (3) and a big chunk of (4).

Which, unfortunately, occasionally leaves some of (4) who seem to sometimes
put more effort into deceiving me than it would take to actually learn the
damn skills in the first place. Which is why I _really_ like having some kind
of solid work "with the team" session for at least a couple of hours. Pay 'em
for it too if at all possible.

------
GoodIntentions
OK as someone looking for employment, I feel ambivalent about this and
probably would pull the plug on the process if you asked for non trivial work
from me. I understand the need to weed out applicants that lack skills. This
can and should be done by technical screening conducted by qualified
individuals.

FWIW this opinion is based on experience. I've conducted more interviews than
I have given. As an applicant I once went through a fairly lengthy interview
process that first did a screening interviews including live coding exercises.
They were conducted and critiqued in real time. I have no issue with these.
You can either do what you say, or you can't and it becomes apparent fast.

The next stage is where I started to question the company's processes - They
requested a small "project" followed by an interview. I _nearly_ pulled the
plug on this, since it was a request for 10+ hours coding, but did it anyway.

The next interview involved a fairly in depth defense of my code and design
choices, white board work that again put my skill set to the test real time.
After several hours of this, I was requested to do another "small project" and
I walked away.

TL;DR Ask me a million questions, put my skills to the test on the spot, but
don't ask free work... I'll think you're unable to judge my skill/confused/a
scammer or whatever.

~~~
ksat
+1 and Agree. It's wrong to get free work. However, just out of curiosity how
would you have felt if the employer has actually paid you for those "small
projects"? (To be clear: No guarantee that you will get the Job, but payment
is guaranteed for the hours you put in)

~~~
GoodIntentions
Payment, or even a donation to charity for a token amount - say 1/3 the value
of the work - would go far, but I still think it is the wrong approach.

Companies requiring this sort of project work should be aware it smells funny
to the applicant and the only way to tell if the applicant did the work
him/herself is a tear-down / code defence.

You have not saved any effort from the hire process - only tested if I am
willing to jump through a hoop and made me question the company.

------
huhtenberg
I first posted a snarky comment saying how this is spec work and what not. I
then looked closely and deleted it, because it's not a spec work.

Your description -

    
    
      Recruit web developers by having them build a web app
    

should really be this instead -

    
    
      Recruit web developers by having them build a TEST web app
    

You have to be _very_ careful with how you describe your service. You are an
inch away from a much despised domain area of 99designs, and it's only
sensible to try and distantiate yourselves from any spec work associations.

~~~
dpcan
Or, hire a web developer by having them PROVE they have what it takes.

Or, hire a web developer with too little work experience to have any previous
examples of what they can do, but still have them somewhat prove they have the
appropriate technical knowledge at least handle the job ......... or something
like that.

Anyway, if I had to run a developer through a test like this, I probably
wouldn't be talking to him in the first place honestly. I tend to contract
with people based on what I've already seen them do.

I understand that getting started is hard too, so hopefully some new
developers will find themselves using this tool and it will help them get new
jobs and build that portfolio.

------
ksat
Hi HNers, OP here. Cull.io is similar to top coder or interviewstreet but
focussing just on recruiting web developers. It works by asking candidates to
develop a web app on localhost instead of presenting a textarea where
candidates types the code.

Advantages:

1) Candidates can virtually choose any language, framework, libraries or IDEs
to solve the challenge. (Since they are developing on localhost with their own
setup)

2) Because of 1) you need not limit your challenge to be overly algorithmic.
You can for example ask questions like 'Pick the most popular article on
hacker news today'

Disadvantages: Limited to candidates who can develop a web application

~~~
mattkirman
At the risk of playing devil's advocate, I would argue that giving candidates
the ability to use virtually any language or framework and develop on
localhost is not necessarily an advantage.

When I'm looking to hire a Rails dev then I want to know as soon as possible
in the interview process that they actually know some of the basics of Rails
and MVC - not just if they can build a web app. Furthermore, by hiding the
candidate's choice of language/framework (and code quality) behind localhost
the benefits of assigning an arbitrary coding challenge are lost. I fear that
the only solution would be for the candidate to submit the full source code.

However, as a very quick "can this candidate actually write code" filter, I
think you're well on track.

~~~
ksat
Yes that's a valid point. We do ask the candidate to submit the source code
once the they have solved the challenge. So employers who need only say
"Rails" developers can mention it in the instructions and check the source
later.

"However, as a very quick "can this candidate actually write code" filter, I
think you're well on track."

Yes, that's exactly what I wanted this to be. Quickly filter out the 80% and
move to the next stage where you can do much better justice reviewing the
candidate's past work, working with the candidate on a project etc.

------
corry
Leaving aside whether or not this is a valid way to attract top people, my
suggestion is to rebrand the name - "cull" has too negative a connotation
("cull the herd").

So #1, I'm part of "the herd", and #2 this tool is being used to possibly cull
me. Great. No thanks, I'll spend my time applying to a place that doesn't have
a tool dedicated to weeding me out. It doesn't portray the hiring org or your
tool very well.

I'd be afraid that you're turning off devs right away, before they even get to
the site (which has the potential to turn them off even more). My $0.02

~~~
dotjinks
Cull is perfect from HR's point of view and speaks to the heart of the problem
they are having trying to find viable candidates in a sea of resumes.

~~~
corry
Yes, it speaks to HR's problem - but in a way that jeopardizes their objective
(i.e. hiring good people).

Quality devs are in short supply already... explicitly saying that you're
treating them like cattle is not going to result in better outcomes. If good
devs don't participate = this is worse than a regular process.

In my experience, devs want to feel wanted / valued / pursued, not like
commodities that need to be filtered.

/your experience may vary

------
vaksel
I think you'll have traction problems on the developer side.

Doesn't matter what kind of job it is, you can be pretty much 100% guaranteed
that the job will be listed on the company website without any of the extra
hoops to jump through.

Requiring someone to build a web app just to apply is a huge requirement. It's
fine if you gave someone an interview, and this is the final step before you
hire...but requiring someone to code just to submit an application is abuse.

~~~
paul9290
This idea/service needs to sold to HR departments who are seeking developers.

As someone who hires I want to know what they can do vs what they say they can
do. When I hire I ask job applicant to cut up and code a PSD. Some refuse
while the eager ones whom are really serious and are excited about the job
happily do so.

Overall it's good practice and we give each applicant feedback on how to
improve. The flip side allows us to see who cut up and coded the PSD the best
(validates) and quickest. That is the person we go with; majority of the time.

Jobs aren't easy to come by these days and in non metropolitan cities the
competition is fierce.

~~~
enko
> I ask job applicant to cut up and code a PSD

You judge job applicants by their willingness to jump through boring scut work
hoops in the hope of getting a job? I don't know what you're optimising for
there, but it certainly isn't programming talent.

I've known a few C-class bumblers who would probably do that for a job
interview. The number of grade-A talented engineers, the people I would want
to hire, who would put themselves through some pointless, arbitrary slog just
to impress you with their "eagerness"? Precisely zero.

~~~
paul9290
These tests are for a web design and branding agency.

There are tons and tons of resumes and the shop is not located in a huge
metropolitan area like San Fran, NYC, Chicago, etc.

------
samkline
A lot of people are commenting that they don't want to have to solve this type
of problem before applying, but I don't see an issue. I could whip up a simple
program that listens for HTTP requests and e.g. reverses a string in minutes,
using any high-level language. I spend more time than that writing a nice
cover letter.

Given the number of "non-coding coders," I think this is a decent service.

~~~
ksat
Thanks!

------
daleharvey
Seeing things like this is why I love working in open source, a quick look at
github + the projects I am involved with and someone can see what my interests
are, what my abilities are and how I work in a team.

Not every work place produces open source code and not everyone wants to spend
their limited spare time 'working', but I cant think of better advice for
eager job seekers / students / graduates to look for open source projects to
contribute to.

(of course it isnt the only reason, making software you love, with awesome
people, and making the world a better place arent to be ignored)

------
rohanprabhu
I think it is important for some cases at least, that the libraries used by a
candidate be limited. For some algorithms (lets say a search algorithm), it
would be convenient to use a searching library. What library a person chooses
is informative, but not as much as how a person implements it himself/herself.
I do understand that this is essentially a screening test, but if lets say,
DuckDuckGo was hiring, then how a person implements searching, even if trivial
goes a long way in deciding how applicable that person would be for the job.
This will be extremely difficult to implement though, I'm just saying one can
require them to submit source code and then manual checking can be done for
candidates who pass the screen. The reason is that there are a lot of drag-
and-drop style wizards that can just generate some skeletal web service that
could be used to break this screening test.

In the end, this is an amazing service, but sometimes, these tasks are
essentially trivial, like, for example, exposing a function to a web service.
I believe (and this is just my opinion), that the function is more essentially
than how one can wire it to different interfaces.

But, what do I know, I'm too drunk right now.

------
peterstjohn
There's definitely some merit in this approach over something like Fizzbuzz
and whiteboard problems. At my previous place of employment [1] , after the
initial interview, you were given 48 hours to produce a simple web addressbook
app. You could use _anything_ that you wanted to produce the app - at the end
of the 48 hour period, you had to supply thme with the code and instructions
on how to install it on a Ubuntu instance. It was actually quite fun (and then
after getting the job and testing other people's entries, you begin to see how
it separated people with impressive CVs who couldn't program for toffee, and
others who had much less experience, but managed to come up with something
that worked!)

[1] That would be Open Source Integrators, a great Durham-based outfit who I
believe are still looking for people to staff their Chicago offices:
<http://osintegrators.com/>

~~~
x1
Great idea... but did you let them know ahead of time? I'd hate to do a phone
interview and then realize I'm building a web app over my weekend trip to
Chicago.

~~~
peterstjohn
The nice thing was that after you passed the initial interview, the company
would let you start whenever (within reason, obviously). You'd send them an
email that you were ready, they'd send details, and the clock would start
ticking from then. Much more relaxed.

------
mfieldhouse
@ksat - I think it's easy to get the wrong idea of what your site is for from
the heading - "...having them develop a real web application". Of course
building an entire web app just to apply for a job is overkill. But it looks
like that's not what you meant? I read further down the page and the examples
given are more like short coding challenges. That's acceptable, and I think
you need to focus your site more on filling that need. Position it as some
sort of "Automated Fizzbuzz Test".

~~~
ksat
Got it. Thanks. I'll see how I can word it better.

------
asto
What stops me from asking a friend to help me? Or worse still, if this is used
as a campus recruitment tool, someone might mail working code to the entire
college!

~~~
ksat
Well yes, but thats applicable any remote interviews. Or even telephonic
interviews. As a solution you could have the candidate solve a challenge on
premise. or having him explain the code or make small modification on
premise(what i do, if I have a doubt)

------
lomegor
I have not seen the service itself for the developer, but as for the screen I
would recommend a way of customizing a bit more what site it should check.
Right now it seems you can only change the port, but plenty of times I just
create a new directory under root for the webapp (something like
<http://localhost:8080/mywebapp>) because it's easier in some web servers.

~~~
ksat
Got it. Din't think of that. thanks. It'll be a nice to perform all requests
relative to a webapp directory. Will send you a mail once it's done.

------
dotjinks
Oh, now programmers are graphic designers too? Don't want to play the submit
three logo comps and maybe we'll hire you game?

Geez, even a hired gun has to shoot someone for free once in a while just to
show potential employers he's still got it! No one really knows what you did
before (unless you have code groupies). Employers certainly do not give a shit
in today's job market, they want to know you will fit in with the team and
that you work as advertised. No one in their right mind believes advertising
or resumes these days. So what's the alternative? You want to slip them source
someone else paid you to make! I sure as shit would not hire you if you share
like that. Competitions surely suck for losers who do not learn from their
loss(es).

Suck on this - if you are bored then YOU are boring. If you won't build a
small (not going to make anyone else money) solution to show a potential
employer you can, you probably can't.

------
michael_fine
Small nitpick: it's typical to have your logo link to the homepage.

~~~
ksat
Will fix. thanks.

~~~
Luyt
Except on the homepage itself ;-)

------
antihero
It's a pretty nice idea. That music is beyond horrible, however.

~~~
ksat
Payed $47 to musicbakery.com for that :(

~~~
emehrkay
Didnt know about that service. Thanks.

I like your idea too. Best of luck

~~~
ksat
Thanks! I'd love your feedback. You can mail me kaushik [at] cull.io

------
lo_fye
it better be a very simple web app. otherwise the applicant can only apply to
a couple jobs a week/month.

makes me think: ask a car manufacturer to design & build a new car before you
choose them to design & build your company's custom car.

~~~
ksat
Yes! I think the complexity should be reasonable too. I've listed why I built
it here: <http://www.cull.io/why.html>

To start with, if you are recruiting a web developer it can be an simple
alternative which lets candidates choose any framework, language or library.

P.s: It is another reason why cull.io never tracks the time a candidates take
to complete the challenge. Honestly I think services like this will merely be
a way to filter out candidates not select them. To select candidates you still
need to work with them on a project and see their previous projects

------
LiquidSummer
Interesting idea, but what stops me from just writing the content instead of
programming it?

~~~
ksat
A Few things:

1) For some requests, the correct response can be hidden and just reply 'pass'
or 'fail'.

2) You can use javascript to randomize the requests. For example create a
random expression and ask it to be evaled

3) Candidates submit the code after completing the challenge.

Thanks for checking out!

~~~
Estragon
The intro video would benefit by demonstrating this. I had the same question.

------
imknight
love it , on the side note , it might help to train fresh developer, example
create series of request and get the fresh grad developer to go through ?

------
trhaynes
"Print the tweet given _its_ Id"

~~~
ksat
:). Will fix. Thanks

~~~
arckiearc
<http://www.cull.io/images/home/answersannot.png> \- Has the text "Resume and
other intersting stuff", there's a typo on interesting.

Nice idea by the way!

~~~
ksat
Thanks! Will fix.

