
German Cities Are Solving the Age-Old Public Toilet Problem - doener
https://www.fastcoexist.com/3065278/german-cities-are-solving-the-age-old-public-toilet-problem?utm_content=buffer06058&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
======
pmoriarty
I've heard a lot of people complain about all the shit on the streets of San
Francisco. For such a clearly visible and obviously unwanted problem, I'm
shocked and puzzled by the lack of action to provide more public toilets.

Why is it so hard? If you don't want shit on the streets, the obvious solution
is public toilets, no?

Instead, most of the people complaining about the shit on the streets blame it
on homeless people, as if it's their fault that there's nowhere for them to
shit except on the streets. What are they supposed to do? Hold it in?

One group of people has the wherewithal to solve this problem, and it's not
the mentally ill homeless people who can barely take care of themselves.

You'd think one of the wealthiest countries on the planet would have gotten
basic sanitation right by now.

~~~
TylerE
Because when you provide public toilets, they end up being monopolized by
junkies as a place to shoot up.

~~~
anigbrowl
No they don't. when you supply hardly any public toilets, then yeah, that's
going to be a problem. When you make plenty of them available and create jobs
to keep them clean, it tends not to be that big of a problem.

I used to work as a cook, and before I could cook I had to learn every other
job in the restaurant. Believe me I've cleaned my share of junkie-occupied
toilets. It's a problem, but not the insurmountable problem you claim.

~~~
TylerE
[http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Junkies-Shooting-Up-
In-S-...](http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Junkies-Shooting-Up-In-S-F-
Public-Toilets-2933185.php)

[http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1027021079747556520](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1027021079747556520)

[http://sfist.com/2015/09/02/sf_hiring_potty-
sitters_to_keep_...](http://sfist.com/2015/09/02/sf_hiring_potty-
sitters_to_keep_pub.php)

~~~
DanBC
...or you can treat it like the public health issue it is and provide sharps
bins in toilets.

[http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/community/health-and-
safe...](http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/community/health-and-
safety/alcohol-and-drugs/drug-safety/community-sharps)

> Community sharps are needles, syringes and lancets that are used to
> administer medications and drugs outside a clinical setting.

> We need to dispose of sharps safely to prevent needlestick injury in our
> public places, at home and for workers who remove waste or clean facilities.

> Whether or not a community sharp is used for medication or drug use, sharps
> are to be treated as clinical waste, like they would be in a hospital.

> Local councils have a number of community sharps bins installed in community
> centres, libraries and public toilets to encourage sharps waste to be
> managed separately from general waste.

~~~
eru
I've also seen public toilets lighted up in ghastly blue light that makes it
hard to see your veins.

While annoying, it's better than no public toilets; and presumably easier for
the people maintaining the toilets than dealing with junkies.

(I think they still had sharp bins.)

~~~
greenbluegold
They don't have to see their vein. Sometimes they feel it or they already know
what spot to go for.

------
adrianN
In Japan public toilets are ubiquitous, free, and fairly clean. I wonder how
they do it? Is it because Japanese people generally take better care of public
spaces and keeping the toilets clean and operational is thus cheaper?

~~~
kazagistar
Japan keeps its unemployment low in a very forceful way. There are a huge
number of people employed for low pay doing low efficiency work, just to keep
everyone working a job. For example, you might see someone telling pedestrians
to watch their step near a construction site, and the voice announcing trains
at the station might be a real person holding a microphone.

~~~
mschuster91
> and the voice announcing trains at the station might be a real person
> holding a microphone.

Before the privatization attempts, the Deutsche Bahn used real announcers on
the major train stations.

Now, after decades of cost-cutting, it's pre-recorded audio pieces played by a
computer. They sound broken and mismatching (because it's no TTS engine), they
fail to be played half the time (and frequent rail users would claim the
failure rate at 90%+) and of course the stuff breaks down when something
unexpected happens (like emergency rail closures, due to people on the rails,
med emergencies, police action, ...).

~~~
Symbiote
In Britain, all the station names are pre-recorded by a professional voice
actor, as well as common problems, and many not-so-common ones.

"The nineteen fifty two ... Southern service to ... Brighton ... is delayed by
approximately ... twelve ... minutes due to ... trespassers-on-the-railway.
Please listen for further announcements. We apologize for the inconvenience."

(Replace with "a passenger taken ill on a train" or "action by the police".)

"The train approaching platform ... two ... is the ... delayed ... nineteen
fifty-two ... Southern ... service to ... Brighton ... calling at ... Clapham
Junction, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Haywards Heath and Brighton. This
train has ... twelve ... coaches. Platform ... two ... for the nineteen fifty-
two service to ... Brighton."

I much prefer it to a live announcement. The slightly ... odd pauses are
distinctive, but mean derivations from the usual announcement stand out,
whilst the whole thing is soporific for commuters. For others, there's the
much-needed repetition of the most important bits; the destination of the
train is spoken three times.

Examples: [https://youtu.be/0cg-n-GF38E?t=139](https://youtu.be/0cg-n-
GF38E?t=139) (At 3:20 there's a Welsh one!)

(I don't like the repeated keep-your-luggage announcements, but maybe they're
justified since people are still trying to bomb railways with abandoned
luggage.)

~~~
arjie
Absolutely love these mad libs style announcements. I can't say why but they
give me a rather pleasant feeling, and the clear tone of voice change seems to
signal to me "important stuff here" while the rest is "filler here". Lewisham,
especially, is so out of character. Highly amusing.

------
heisenbit
One aspect not mentioned is that in Germany when you sell liquid drinks AND
provide seats to sit down you also have to provide a toilet for customers.

I'm not sure this initiative is actually improving matters. I more believe it
is trying to stem the tide of key codes at toilet doors. See this article from
last year mentioning "nice toilet" initiative:
[http://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-main/wc-nur-fuer-gaeste-
fra...](http://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-main/wc-nur-fuer-gaeste-frankfurter-
cafebetreiber-schliessen-toiletten-ab-13402228.html) Google translate:
[https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=h...](https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faz.net%2Faktuell%2Frhein-
main%2Fwc-nur-fuer-gaeste-frankfurter-cafebetreiber-schliessen-toiletten-
ab-13402228.html)

~~~
elecengin
Many coffee shops in downtown NYC have the code/key situation.

There are similar regulations in NYC (and I think most of the US, although it
is at a local level) that mandate customer bathrooms although they do not
sound as strict. For example, small coffee shops (less than ~15 seats)
frequently have no customer bathrooms.

~~~
nefitty
Wow, that would be one of the first places I'd expect a restroom. Here in
Vegas I continually find myself asking for a public restroom at convenience
stores. It's usually hit or miss. Most do have seats for gamblers, so it's not
the seats, most have hot prepared foods, so it's not that either. I've always
thought that places that provide public facilities on their own initiative
should maybe get some kind of subsidy for upkeep from the county or city
government.

------
zuzun
Berlin licenses all its advertising space to private companies and lets them
build and maintain public toilets as part of the deal. The toilets are usually
barrier free and fully automated, i.e. they do a full cleaning after every
use. They are in fairly good conditions and I thought this was a great idea,
but the senate has issued a request for tender in 2018 so the future is a bit
unclear at the moment.

[http://img.morgenpost.de/img/berlin/crop207814885/0722602716...](http://img.morgenpost.de/img/berlin/crop207814885/0722602716-w820-cv16_9-q85/42418011-621b782d-d10e-4ebe-
adc6-58422ca66696.jpg)

~~~
maelito
Same in Paris (JCDecaux). But I wonder the cost for just 400 toilets in a city
center with 2 million inhabitants and lots of tourists.

------
easychris
The cities pay 50-150€/mo to the owners [1]. I wouldn't participate if I would
own a bar/restaurant.

Slightly OT: A shopping mall in germany, where paying for the use of the
toilet is voluntary (50Ct / use) makes on avg. ~300€/day, during christmas
season up to 8000€/day [2]. If I would own a venue at a highly frequented
place I'd rather request 50Ct from the user. ;)

[1]
[https://www.welt.de/regionales/koeln/article13794805/Nette-T...](https://www.welt.de/regionales/koeln/article13794805/Nette-
Toilette-steht-vor-einem-Comeback.html) (german)

[2]
[http://waz.m.derwesten.de/dw/staedte/oberhausen/gladbecker-f...](http://waz.m.derwesten.de/dw/staedte/oberhausen/gladbecker-
firma-kassierte-trinkgeld-von-klofrau-id8899268.html?service=mobile) (german)

~~~
weinzierl
This assumes that

1\. Participating in the program will cause you additional costs

2\. Participating will decrease the voluntary payments

I have no data to back this up but my gut feeling is that neither is true.
People will prefer toilets in restaurants anyway and at least the locals are
used to favour them over public toilets. My thesis is that putting up the
"Nette Toilette" sticker will not draw more "customers".

When it comes to the voluntary payment: It's considered tipping money for the
cleaning staff, so people will probably tip the same. And even if they did not
it shouldn't make a difference for you as a restaurant owner, because it's not
your money anyway. At least in theory...

~~~
SyneRyder
Newbie question: is it really voluntary? When I was in Germany last year I
used the toilets at a bar where I was a customer, and not understanding the
etiquette/signs, I walked out without paying. But the "creepy guy sitting
alone at a table right outside the toilets" started yelling at me loudly about
Geld... at which point I understood he was the cleaner and tipped 2 Euro.

(I'm approaching this as an Australian, where public toilets and toilets in
shopping malls / department stores are always free. But I don't mind a user-
pays system.)

~~~
mioelnir
Most places where you have to pay, you usually have to pay up front. The
yelling guy might just have called you names for being cheap, I certainly
wouldn't expect toilets at a bar to have a mandatory fee.

Another scheme is usually found at Autobahn rest stops, where you actually
have to pay for toilets, but get a voucher over the full amount that you can
then use in their shops.

------
cowsandmilk
In Boston, a big problem is at 2:30 AM after the bars close and people are
wandering the streets to get home because public transit is also
(inexplicably) closed. When everything is closed, how do you prevent people
from pooping and pissing in alleys (or in broad streetlight)?

Or, for the opposite type of person, runners at 5 in the morning have the same
problem. Miles away from home, sudden need to go to the bathroom, everything
is closed.

~~~
mattmanser
It's closed because between 8 and 2:30 they make no money, so why would they
keep it open for 6 hours.

In the UK the councils subsidise the local transport to stay open till 1/2am.

~~~
chairleader
Boston has blue laws around the sale of alcohol.

See also: no alcohol sales before noon on Sunday, no discounted liquor at
restaurants, and every bar/pub that sells liquor must also sell food.

~~~
mattmanser
I don't understand why I'm being downvoted, can you explain?

Public transport loses money in the evenings, across the world they get shut
down unless subsidised.

~~~
rsync
I downvoted you because you talked about your downvotes.

Don't interrupt the discussion to meta-discuss the scoring system.

~~~
mattmanser
I might have phrased it wrong but I was literally asking what was wrong with
what I said.

I'm getting confused by HN these days, it's like you get random d/vs for
absolutely nothing.

------
jamiecurle
Newcastle Upon Tyne is also doing something similar.

[0] [https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/environment-and-waste/street-
ca...](https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/environment-and-waste/street-care-and-
cleaning/public-toilets)

[1] [https://www.getintonewcastle.co.uk/city-info/use-our-
loos](https://www.getintonewcastle.co.uk/city-info/use-our-loos)

~~~
Theodores
In the cynical British context I see the stickers on windows regarding the
scheme and assume that it just means there are no public toilets any more. I
would not go in to the cafe etc. for a quick visit to the lavatory, I would
still feel odd about not buying anything.

It is a cultural thing and I expect most British people would expect their
council to maintain public toilets rather than not bother and have some
community business scheme. It reeks of privatisation and down sizing the local
council.

------
xg15
I like the idea, but...

> _If a venue took the cash and didn 't display its sticker, for example, the
> public would soon report it to the city._

How exactly would "the public" know the venue takes part in the program if
they don't display the sticker?

~~~
raphman
There's a website (and an app) with a list of all participating venues:
[http://www.die-nette-toilette.de/wer-macht-bereits-mit.html](http://www.die-
nette-toilette.de/wer-macht-bereits-mit.html) (in German)

------
petepete
Common sense appears to prevail. Cheap for the council, easy to understand, no
bottlenecks, companies can opt in or out. More cities should try this.

------
broccolisoup
To mention the Spanish and Italian way: there are public toilets, some on the
street (not that many, mostly near playgrounds), most in public buildings,
rail and bus stations and the like. They are always free to use. Condition can
be from very good to very poor, depends on the area and who looks after the
toilets, mostly.

Aside from that, every place serving drinks or foods with the possibility to
eat in the premises must have fully equipped toilets, and those are usually in
good condition, so what most people do is walk into a bar or restaurant and
use those. Some people just ask if it's OK to use the toilet, others will buy
an espresso or bottle of water. Personally I ask and then pay for someone
else's coffee or tip the barman, but I'm neither Spanish or Italian. Paid
toilets are unknown there and would be seen with hostility. Toilets at
shopping centres and motorway stops can always be used freely. Petrol stations
and underground car parks also tend to have toilets that one can use,
sometimes you have to ask for the key.

In France, it is mostly the same except that bar/restaurant toilets tend to
be, let us say, a character building experience and being a different culture,
the "let me use the toilet and I'll buy a bottle of water from you" thing does
not quite work (apart from the water being at least €2.-) There are, however,
a lot more public toilets, often the self-cleaning type (the French are big on
automation, due to their awkward labour laws), and best of all, the "pissoirs"
(from "pisser": to piss). There aren't many left, but you can still see them
in some villages and small towns.

Some pics and history here: [http://untappedcities.com/2010/07/08/i-need-to-
pee-public-to...](http://untappedcities.com/2010/07/08/i-need-to-pee-public-
toilets-in-paris/) (also shows the newer automatic toilets), and a bit of an
extreme and not completely serious example here: [http://www.pwfg.de/wp-
content/uploads/2011/10/open-air-pisso...](http://www.pwfg.de/wp-
content/uploads/2011/10/open-air-pissoir-640x426.jpg)

~~~
broccolisoup
> [http://www.pwfg.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/open-air-
> pisso...](http://www.pwfg.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/open-air-
> pissoir-640x426.jpg)

In case anyone wonders about the hose, that's for people of North African or
Middle Eastern origin who in addition to or instead of toilet paper, prefer to
use water and their (conventionally, left) hand to clean up after full relief
--a method which in fact does a far better job than smearing it all over one's
arse cheeks.

------
trengrj
The public toilet 'problem' (in that public toilets must be bad) isn't really
a thing as any mall can seem to handle this issue.

When I went to Germany I was amazed at how bad their toilets were and I often
had to pay to use them.

~~~
easychris
A toilet in a mall is not considered public (= state-owned) in context of this
article. The latter are usually really dirty and not nice to use.

~~~
icebraining
I think the point is that many malls have toilets completely open to the
public (no payment to keep out "undesirables") and manages to keep them nice
and clean.

~~~
manarth
I would guess that it's because the confined space of a mall makes this this
efficient to staff.

Firstly, there are multiple toilets within a relatively small area, so one
cleaning team can service multiple toilets. Secondly, the small area of a mall
minimises travel time (wastage) between toilets. Thirdly, in places where
keeping the toilets clean doesn't take enough time to keep the cleaners
occupied full-time, there are other general cleaning tasks to occupy them.

It's also worth considering the deterrent effect of footfall and supervision:
if the toilets are used frequently, and checked/cleaned frequently, people are
less likely to carry out wanton acts of vandalism, for fear of getting caught.

If you take the example of a city with public toilets on the streets, either
each toilet has to be staffed, which would generally be expensive/inefficient,
as each toilet wouldn't require a full-time cleaner, or you would need a
cleaning team to travel from toilet to toilet, spending time stuck in traffic,
looking for a parking space, etc.

------
minitoar
Santa Cruz, California has been doing this for a few years. It mostly works
well but those bathrooms get trashed.

~~~
jdavis703
Yes I was wondering how this would work in San Francisco. There is a large
mental illness and drug abuse problem, many who suffer from these issues find
it very difficult to leave a bathroom in at least a semi-decent state. Does
the city maybe wind up paying enough to the businesses so they hire someone to
keep the restroom clean?

~~~
oscardelben
I think you'll find that mentally ill people are treated differently in
Europe, that would be a necessary first step of your want to do something
similar in sf.

~~~
jdavis703
Yes I spend a couple of months every year in Europe so I'm aware. The thing is
health care is better, drug abuse (not use, but abuse) seems lower and also
society has less tolerance for acting out. I've got a lot of mental illness
issues in my family, so I hopefully can say this without sounding rude. But a
lot of people dealing with mental episodes can to some extent moderate their
behaviour. Not that it's easy, but the ability is there. However particularly
in SF we are very tolerant, maybe to the point of causing more harm than good.
So then some people just indulge in their every impulse including engaging in
poor sanitary habits.

------
kaikai
The city of Santa Cruz, California has a similar program:
[http://cityofsantacruz.com/departments/economic-
development/...](http://cityofsantacruz.com/departments/economic-
development/business-support/visitor-restroom-program)

The main downside is that the bathrooms are only open when the businesses are
open. That means folks living on the streets still don't have access to
toilets for a big chunk of the day.

------
coldcode
Last time I was in Germany (2015) I had to pay 50pf to the little emperor who
ran the toilet in the Paderborn train station; I didn't see the sign about
paying (it was blocked by the open door) and he basically attacked me as I
walked out. Not sure how this is a wonderful solution. I also remember a
European airline wanting to charge people to use the toilet on their planes.

------
radarsat1
Should be mentioned Paris' automatically cleaning toilets. They are definitely
slow and not great when there is a lot of people needing them, but for an
otherwise rather dirty city, damned if they are not cleaner and more
convenient than what I've seen most other places.

~~~
douche
These are supremely confusing if you have never encountered one before...
Thankfully, a helpful French man was able to explain the situation to me
before I tried to enter one as it was starting it's wash cycle.

------
jagermo
German here. I have never heard of this programm, nor does it seem that big
cities like Hamburg, Frankfurt or Munich are part of it.

It looks like a nice thing, but the headline is a little misleading, its not
in "all German cities", just some.

~~~
kuschku
Munich is actually joining the program from 2017 on. Bremen already is in it.

So, it's actually not that misleading.

------
jupp0r
As a German, every time I travel to any other country I am impressed how many
public toilets there are and the good state they are in.

------
Vitaly
Or you could just mandate all toilets to be open to the public. Like, for
example, in Israel.

------
known
"Diversity society will fail" \--Putnam;
[http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/t...](http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/)

~~~
sctb
This account has been posting a lot of unsubstantive comments, but this one is
right out of nowhere. Please stop.

------
acqq
"The Germans have figured out a cheap way to provide the public with
bathrooms."

Aren't the bathrooms the places where somebody can bathe?

~~~
chrisseaton
It's a euphemism.

~~~
manarth
English seems to have an extraordinary number of euphemisms for "that room":

Bathroom. Restroom. Water Closet. Loo. Bog. Khazi. John. Privy.

I wonder if other languages have such an array of words for a toilet, and how
much confusion they cause for foreigners.

~~~
Symbiote
"Bathroom" and "restroom" are only used in American English. In other English-
speaking countries, a bathroom contains a bath, and a restroom sounds like
somewhere to go if you're tired.

"Toilet" is also a euphemism, it's Middle French for a type of cloth.

So is "lavatory", it means wash room.

I can't think of a word that isn't vulgar or a euphemism.

~~~
baha_man
"Toilet" is not a euphemism:

"Toilet" was by etymology a euphemism, but is no longer understood as such. As
old euphemisms have become the standard term, they have been progressively
replaced by newer ones, an example of the euphemism treadmill at work.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet#Contemporary_Use](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet#Contemporary_Use)

