
The Danish Don't Have the Secret to Happiness - tokenadult
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/01/the-danish-dont-have-the-secret-to-happiness/384930/?single_page=true
======
MrJagil
> [Denmark] might not get your pulse racing like the Lower East Side or
> Copacabana, but in the long run a solid pension fund and reliable broadband
> will always win the day—

This does not seem entirely truthful, at least regarding Danish youth. Danish
art and culture is, and have for a long time been, in _big_ demand. Music
magazines continuously scope out the different scenes. Maybe most recently,
danish punk had an enormous period of exposition when acts like Ice Age and
Lower got picked up by Pitchfork. MØ is another example. I have a feeling too
that most people here are familiar with Danish design and architecture and I
often hear Copenhagen mentioned as the (street?) fashion capital of the world.
Furthermore, it seems scandinavia in general is having a pretty big tech and
startup resurgence right now. Web 2.0 and the whole App thing seems to fit the
general culture well. Perhaps because the living standards are quite high...
the smartphone market for instance, is entirely saturated. Lastly, Denmark is
often described as one of the countries where the youth drink the most which
suggest a vibrant night life (I can attest to that; there's a way too loud
party next door right now. Slap af, det er lige meget.). This article seems
pretty good, if you want to read more:
[http://www.nordicwelfare.org/PageFiles/4207/Gundelach%20J%C3...](http://www.nordicwelfare.org/PageFiles/4207/Gundelach%20J%C3%A4rvinen.pdf)

Now, perhaps Danes stagnate when they get older, and certainly not everyone
works in the arts. Nor does everyone live in the heart of Copenhagen. I do
feel though, that Denmark being dull has more to do with certain people having
a tiny reference frame than the actual situation they are in or can create for
themselves.

------
_delirium
Miscellaneous comments on the article, from the perspective of a Greek-
American who's lived some years in Denmark. Admittedly a bit disjointed and
anecdotal, but then so was the article...

1\. The biggest "contentedness" aspect imo is not only people's economic
position, but extraordinarily high confidence in it. To compare with
neighboring Germany, Germans are economically not much worse off, and their
poverty rate is only moderately higher. But middle-class and especially lower-
middle-class Germans feel _much_ less secure about their status. In Eurostat
surveys, something like 10-15% of Danes report worrying that they or a family
member might fall into poverty, but it's ~40% in Germany (and higher in other
parts of Europe).

2\. I haven't found this part to be at all true: _Newspaper editor Anne
Knudsen had an interesting theory relating to why the Danes continue to
respond positively to happiness surveys: “In Denmark it is shameful to be
unhappy,” she told me._

It's possible this isn't what she means, but in my experience Danes are much
more likely to be open about things like being treated for depression than
Americans are; it's still seen as shameful in the US to a much greater extent.
The social system also supports it, e.g. students or employees sometimes take
off time due to mental-health issues or stress, and are usually pretty open
about it.

3\. I don't find the "Jante Law" particularly useful as an interpretative
device for understanding Scandinavian society, at least in the big cities
(I've never lived in Herning or Randers or such, so can't speak to them). The
novel it comes from is mainly a satire of small-town mentality of the era it
was written (the 1930s, when most of Scandinavia's population lived in such
towns). Some parts are distinctively Scandinavian, but in my opinion most are
not. For comparison, read Sinclair Lewis's 1920 novel _Main Street_ , a satire
of American small-town mentality, and you'll find a very similar mentality
being parodied. And you still find it in the U.S. quite a bit; there's a deep
suspicion in smaller town and rural areas of people who are perceived as
thinking that they're "better" than their roots.

~~~
tokai
Yeah you second point seems off. I have meet English people complaining about
talking to danes. I was told that if you ask a dane "How are you?" as a
greeting, danes would reply with a long winding answer of how their life
currently is.

~~~
cylinder
Well, I'm born and raised American, and I _still_ find it odd that people say
"how are you" rhetorically here. What's the point? They even look at you funny
if you respond with "Good!" Here in New York, you see an acquaintance in the
halls, they say "Hey how are you," you respond "Good how are you" and the
other person doesn't even answer at all! It seems extremely rude to me and I'm
from here, I can only imagine what a foreign visitor thinks.

~~~
_delirium
I can imagine it being odd for some foreign visitors, but plenty of other
languages use similar constructs, so it should be familiar to many visitors.
The American usage of _how are you?_ or _how 's it going?_ as a friendly
greeting isn't much different from the Greek _τι κάνεις;_ , the Spanish _¿cómo
estás?_ , the German _wie geht 's?_, etc. In all those cases the type of
answer that's expected depends on social context, ranging from a quick "fine,
you?" to varying degrees of an actual answer.

------
SyneRyder
I'm so glad to read this. I spent two weeks in Copenhagen last year, I wanted
to love it... but in the end, the "Happiest country in the world" poster in
the airport felt like creepy state propaganda.

Copenhagen had lots of visible social issues. There were lots of people
begging for money in the train stations, which seemed to belie Denmark's
generous welfare. Graffiti was everywhere. If you had the misfortune to have
to walk down Istedgade to your accommodation, you were accosted & grabbed by
several desperate & grim looking prostitutes. Everything was disorganized &
broken - midway through my trip I started taking photos of Windows blue
screens & Windows XP rebooting on the trains, just because I saw it
everywhere. Ticket machines & ATMs often didn't work. My internet wasn't
reliable either, despite the claims of superior Danish internet. No one seemed
to care that things were broken.

The monoculture was eerie. My friends all stayed at different AirBnBs across
the city, and yet all of our apartments looked nearly identical: same
floorboards, same IKEA furniture, even the exact same brand & size of TV. It
was as if no-one dared admit they might want something different or more than
their neighbors have. The housing made me feel very fortunate for what we have
in Australia. The Danes didn't seem happy, just that they were equally grumpy.
It felt "communist" to me, though I suppose "socialist" would be more
accurate.

The truly bizarre thing is that just across the water, barely 20km away in
Malmö (Sweden), things felt so much happier, more diverse & vibrant & creative
& colorful, no-one begging, everything "just worked" and the people were
friendlier.

I don't want to be so down on Copenhagen, I've seen some awesome design &
software come from there. I did like Copenhagen Airport, and they have the
friendliest customs officials I've ever encountered. Tivoli theme park was
nice. But for the most part, Copenhagen gave me a really creepy and unhappy
feeling that I never forgot. Hawaii was a far happier place.

~~~
chvid
Well - as I a Dane I will let you in on a couple of secrets:

1\. The happiness study is flawed: We are not happy; and if happiness was a
one-dimensional measure that was comparable across countries and cultures we
would not be number one, nowhere near.

2\. We are overtaxed, our welfare system is too big and bureaucratic: Filled
with freeloaders, unmotivated cival servants, unsustainable rising pension
costs, ill incentives that are destroying innovation and initiative.

3\. Globalization is killing us: Our industries are being outcompeted, our
welfare system is being exploited thru an influx of poor immigrants, our
internal solidarity is gone; the beggars, petty thieves and hookers you see on
the street are foreigners (though they live here for years) with no
entitlements to any social support and no one is helping them since everyone
thinks it is the job of the state.

~~~
DanishExpat
There's no developed society in the world that doesn't have it's share of
people who hold some version of those exact views.

That's why the article covered this view point but ultimately concluded that
when those Danes were asked which other country they would rather live in, the
response was silence.

I live in the US and pay an enormous amount of taxes that do not go towards
improving society the way they would in Denmark. Close to 80% of people
routinely vote in general elections in Denmark. This means that by and large
Danes have the government and the polices they want.

~~~
chvid
Sure we have the policies we want and when asked in a survey we wouldn't want
to live anywhere else.

And I guess you can dismiss what I as say as merely a political view.

But Denmark is an extreme with the biggest welfare state and the highest level
of taxation of any country plus having a "small open economy".

That makes the mechanisms I listed much stronger here than anywhere else.

------
adventured
Does anyone have an opinion on why Denmark has such a high household debt to
income ratio [1]? At 300% plus debt to income, they're basically the most
indebted households on earth. Debt per adult is 4th highest in the world [2].
The median wealth per adult is similar to the US, but they're carrying twice
as much debt [3].

That would seem to be an extreme threat to future happiness. It seems very out
of place with the culture.

[1] [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-01-06/world-s-
hi...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-01-06/world-s-highest-
household-debt-burden-probed-by-danish-council)

[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult)

[3] [http://angrybearblog.com/2014/10/u-s-median-wealth-up-
from-2...](http://angrybearblog.com/2014/10/u-s-median-wealth-up-from-27th-
to-25th.html)

~~~
petermonsson
The current 30 year interest rate on housing is 2%. That is a fixed rate if
you take out a loan. The financial markets are extremely confident in Danes
abilities to pay off their debt. Denmark is a safe haven for bonds just after
Switzerland.

------
oellegaard
As they mention in the end of the article - most Danes think they're in the
best possible place in the world and have the best life you can get. I guess
that is being happy? Surely you can argue whether it's factually true - but if
you think you are happy - aren't you? :-)

~~~
bryanrasmussen
a large number of Americans seem to think the same. It's easy to seem the best
if you keep your views parochial enough.

~~~
rayiner
> It's easy to seem the best if you keep your views parochial enough.

Or have some experience of the world outside the U.S. I think I live in the
best possible place in the world. I don't begrudge Danes or Swedes for
thinking the same. It's all heaven compared to Bangladesh.

------
swatow
So let's get this straight: The author takes a single critique of Danish
culture. Then asserts that this demonstrates that Danes can't be all that
happy, and therefore concludes the Danes really just have low expectations.

Then the author notes that low Gini coefficients tend to be considered a good
thing for happiness. But the author decides that actually low Gini
coefficients (combined with Denmark's shocking ethnic homogeneity) are
actually a bad thing, so Danes have even less excuse to be happy.

------
DanishExpat
The "low expectations" trope trotted out again. When almost every important
economic and social metric is in world leading territory, then I think it'd be
better expressed as "ambitious, but realistic expectations".

The Danish do not exclusively hold the secret to happiness. As the article
ultimately concedes, it's not a secret that egalitarian societies are happier,
which - from a Danish perspective - means they're more successful.

------
mclemme
Best way I ever heard the law of jante described, was in a TV-show about the
Danes for an American TV-channel (
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_jo69ZTwbE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_jo69ZTwbE)
).

Where some dude says "They have this thing called jantelaw, which essentically
says that you're no better than anybody else, a garbage man can live in a
middleclass neighborhood and hold his head high." \- Which I think is a nice
way to look at it.

Of course there's differences and social "classes", but there is some truth to
the contentedness of many Danes, many people know that more stuff will not
necessarily make them happier, so why work so hard to earn money for it?

------
fapjacks
I personally believe that Jantelagen are a shield against the kind of corrupt
sociopathy that's developing in the United States which is causing income
inequality, awful social services, higher taxes (with no return), and
persistent wars. It's been my secret belief that having these kinds of core
values ingrained in your society will somewhat keep that kind of awful
behavior from expressing itself. It's not just a Danish thing, but a
Scandinavian thing (my experience having been with the Swedes). Jantelagen
should be celebrated.

------
earth2jason
This sounds like a hit piece to me. Too much generalizations that seem to be
thinly disguised pre-props for proganda.

We all know that the Danish has one of the best social welfare systems in the
world and it is a system created by a government that has one of the highest
rates of voter participation in the world. So seems to me that they like what
they have. However, some self interested big wigs might have a different idea.

The idea that there is no creativity or inventiveness seems dishonest to me.
For one, we are talking about a region that is a small fraction of the
population of other nations. It is statistically correct that they are not the
"most" innovative region in the world. Yet in fact, they are one of the
leaders in software innovation and other tech industry movements. Seems to me
they they are statistically ahead of the curve.

Also, all the Danish I've ever met (well the few that I have) are awesome
people in general. I'd say that I've had probably the best conversations and
times with my Danish friends and the same goes true with many other people
from that region. So the rings to me that they are not just happy because of
the "welfare state", but because they, unlike the author's narrow reporting,
do have a thriving culture.

With that being said, I don't trust the intentions of this article. But that's
just my opinion, I guess.

------
napoleoncomplex
The Law of Jante is like institutionalized ego death, perhaps making Danes the
first enlightened nation. Entertaining to consider, at the least.

~~~
cronin101
I moved to Norway to work as a Software Developer; ego-less technical
discussion is _incredibly_ refreshing.

Elsewhere, even when people all have what they think is the product's best
interests at heart, too many times have I seen competing showmanship ruin an
otherwise killer team.

~~~
juliangregorian
Is it really that different (than the US)? How did you get a work visa?

I can't even express how many "geniuses" I've tried to work for only to find
out they completely crumble under the pressure of the expectations they build
for themselves, and then are unable to accept help or work with other
reasonably intelligent people (which might threaten their ego).

Seriously getting burnt out by tech, which is sad, so if it is really as
different as you say I would love to make a move.

------
tokai
As a dane I don't feel negative about the law of jante (even though it is
formulated negatively to lampoon the Scandinavian mindset). I find it communal
and egalitarian. But I guess that viewpoint is hard to understand for people
from more competitive and individual societies.

~~~
sopooneo
Many of the rules seemed redundant. Is that part of a joke, do you know?

------
mclide
Alternative title: You shall not think you're happier than we are.

------
guard-of-terra
What do you need for a non-boring life? You can hop on the plane, you know,
and be in any place you consider non-boring in a few hours.

