
Tech giants Elon Musk, Sam Altman push universal basic income concept - anjalik
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/article/NE/20170520/NEWS/170529965
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niceperson
UBI is not the solution.

The fact that someone else might be in need does not give him any right to my
money, or time. Forced social welfare programs ignore this. UBI does not
reduce the negative imapct of these programs, but actually enforces and
concretizes them and the mentality of "social debt" and "inherent social debt"
(both do not exist) by declaring every citizen equally guilty.

UBI sounds nice on paper because everyone wants a cut on their taxes (and
that's not bad) but it quietly pushes the agenda that you are entitled to
something from everyone else just because you are alive. This will only lead
to worse problems in the long run, because then very few individuals would
understand that people can actually live without UBI.

The increase in taxes for the majority of the earning population would cancel
out the benefits for them anyway, and might even be a negative for them.

UBI gives people something for nothing, which means that people would opt to
not get a job but just stay on UBI for as long as they can. And if the
government does enforce a criteria, well then, it just increases the
surveillance surveillance and mandates it. And to say nothing of the illegal
immigration that will increase if UBI is introduced, because UBI
unconditionally sacrifices the money and time of people who produce for those
who can't, and/or won't.

I just see this as a move for guys like Elon to snuggle up deeper with the
government. This kind of short-range thinking is what has led to the massive
debt right now and will only increase it. Who knows where this self-sacrifice
will stop? People in america cry at the 1%, but being born in America already
puts the majority of its citizens in the 1% of the world's population. What
will happen when those people say it's unfair for so few to have so much? The
people clamoring for UBI do not have a reason for it, and their reason for it
is that there needs to be none. The other countries can and will do the same,
and that's when people will understand their importance of not basing
decisions on feelings.

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gdulli
Your "right" not to be murdered is only a construct. We've decided it's a good
one, and our society is better when people don't have to worry (much) about
being murdered.

We might also decide that our society is better when people have a "right" to
food, shelter, and health care. Those rights would be contrivances like the
ones you already take for granted. But that's not an argument for or against
them.

~~~
posterboy
So by your account, a >>"right" to food, shelter and health care<< would mean
people would still have to worry (but not much). That's kindalike what the
parent was saying, there is no _universal_ right (to Basic Income).

So there have to be arguments and he's giving one, that this proposal is
hardly going to be afforded by those in the position to do so. Which part of
the actual argument do you disagree with? It seem you are saying the workers
would have to want to afford it (because its a positive right), but you don't
actually show it.

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Overtonwindow
How's this sound for a UBI scheme: Companies - including banks - with more
than $2 million in annual profits will be taxed 90%. Individuals with more
than $5 million in assets, cash, stock, bonds, and other investments, will be
taxed at 85%. This would adequately pay for such a system that Messirs Altman,
Musk, and Zuckerburg desire.

Facebook 2016 net income was $1.56 billion. Their tax bill would have been
$1.404 billion.

Until corporations and the super wealthy are willing to give up their own
fortunes to fund a universal basic income they should have zero say in such a
policy decision. It MZ wants everyone to have a UBI then why doesn't he
personally put up the money to do so?

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skybrian
If you're rich and pushing UBI, that probably means that you'd be willing to
pay significantly higher taxes, or why would you do it?

That doesn't mean you have to be a sucker and do it unilaterally when nobody
has to do it. It's a collective action problem.

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Overtonwindow
You would do it because you assume and have a reasonable ability to believe in
the assumption, that the money for such a program won't come from your pocket.

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Mz
_The problem is that giving all Americans a $10,000 annual income would cost
upward of $3 trillion a year — more than three-fourths of the federal
budget.._

It also does not make the poor stop being poor.

My alimony is a little over $10,000 annually. I recently wrote about how this
stuff is a total fantasy. This is some ridiculous fantasy that you can easily
solve this problem by throwing money at it instead of doing any hard work like
resolving the affordable housing crisis in this country.

[http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-world-
ha...](http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-world-has-lost-its-
ever-loving-mind.html)

Edit: They are talking about giving people $10k a year because they expect
robots to take our jobs and there to be widespread unemployment. So forget the
feel good anecdotes about how this will supplement your income and imagine
living on ONLY $10k per year. That's enough to assuage their guilt. It does
not buy you a middle class lifestyle. But if it becomes your right as a
citizen, you can expect even more people to desperately want to immigrate to
the US.

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danjoc
In truth, we already have UBI. It is social security. Think about it: a
country full of fixed income retirees. Sounds great, doesn't it?

Currently that's not working out though. The retirement age is going up, not
down. It's too expensive to give money directly and let people figure it out.
The UBI end game is something like the terrafoam housing from Manna.

[http://marshallbrain.com/manna4.htm](http://marshallbrain.com/manna4.htm)

Put all the UBIs in a nice neat little box where we can forget about them,
like we do with prisoners. Maybe even add sedatives and birth control to the
water, because we certainly don't want resistance or more of them. We'll
probably even call them that. UBIs. Universal basic inmates.

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anon46373
I "live" (not starve but that's all) in a Vanagon in SV on ~$300/month on GA,
SNAP and Medical (Medicaid).

I can barely afford two required medications that I copay out of pocket
(Walgreens), and the price of the expensive one just jumped from $22.50 to
$38. Can't afford auto repairs, can't anything entertaining that involves
money, replacing anything should something break or saving for emergencies
much less retirement. I would like to convert my vehicle to EV (a-la Electric
Samba) and add solar, but that's currently well beyond my reach. (My and
others MPCs are higher because of inelastic demands to survive, not "avocado
toast.")

Thankfully, propane is cheap ($9 every 3-4 years).

UBI will likely never happen because it reduces economic violence on those
unable to earn more than minimum wage. Poor conditions, union-busting, minimal
benefits and maximum productivity benefit the ruling class to extract more
profit from people, keep people busy and keep them "in line."

~~~
sidegrid
What do you do all day if you aren't working?

