
Chicago makes Computer Science a core subject - taylodl
http://www.edtechmagazine.com/k12/article/2013/12/chicago-makes-computer-science-core-subject
======
icegreentea
Ugh, had to go scurrying around to find this info (really wish they linked it
directly), but here's the actual proposal (and its press release):

1) In the next three years, every high school will offer a foundational
“Exploring Computer Science” course. (This is a survey course - my note)

2) In the next five years, at least half of all high schools will also offer
an AP Computer Science course. (My note: AP CS is a Java based course that
looks roughly comparable to first year computer engineering courses, including
algorithms and data structure... I've never taken AP CS, but I bet lots of
people here have, and they can probably elaborate on its usefulness)

3) Chicago will also be the first US urban district to offer a K-8 computer
science pathway, reaching one in four elementary schools in the next five
years.

4) Within five years, CPS will allow computer science to count as a graduation
requirement (e.g. possibly as a math, science, or foreign language credit).
Only thirteen other states have elevated computer science to a core subject
instead of an elective.

[http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/mayor/press_room/...](http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/mayor/press_room/press_releases/2013/december_2013/mayor-
emanuel-and-cps-ceo-barbara-byrd-bennett-announce-comprehe.html)

And for reference, here is CPS' current requirements for highscool graduation:
[http://www.cps.edu/SiteCollectionDocuments/PromotionPolicy/H...](http://www.cps.edu/SiteCollectionDocuments/PromotionPolicy/HSGraduationReq_English.pdf)

~~~
mathattack
The challenge is how they'll be able to teach folks computer science, when
they fail to teach them basic reading and math.

The AP Computer Science class I took was close enough to first year coursework
that they let me pass out of it. The biggest benefit was having a very serious
teacher whose goal in life was that class. (He taught others, but his main
focus as a teacher was the top 2-3% of programmers in the student body) It was
a course that's both rigorous and useful.

~~~
jseliger
_The challenge is how they 'll be able to teach folks computer science, when
they fail to teach them basic reading and math._

The other problem may be salary. Years ago I was looking at teacher salaries
for Seattle public schools. Salaries were identical for all subjects and
increased only with length of time as a teacher and advanced degrees. They
started around $30K with a BA and $36K with an MA. Pay topped out after 30
years at $60 or $70K-ish.

You're just not going to get many competent CS people for that kind of pay.
Yeah, a couple of hero teachers will show up, but for the most part you're
going to get shortages.

Based on the reading I assembled here:
[http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/susan-engel-
doesnt-...](http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/susan-engel-doesnt-
get-2/) , I'm skeptical that we're going to see much improvement in public
schools, and especially urban public schools, until we deal with the teacher
union issue. Unions enforce lockstep payscales.

~~~
krakensden
My SO is a teacher. We have a similar amount of experience, my partner has
more degrees. I make exactly twice as much money.

It's not like I'm working harder or what I'm doing is more important. You just
can't convince Americans to spend money on public schools.

~~~
rayiner
> You just can't convince Americans to spend money on public schools.

Americans spend more on public schools than pretty much anyone else, by almost
any measure you choose: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/25/oecd-
education-repo...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/25/oecd-education-
report_n_3496875.html).

Chicago spends about the same per student as the wealthy suburb where I grew
up. Teachers' salaries are also higher in Chicago than where I grew up,
despite having comparable if not lower cost of living.

~~~
mathattack
It's not just money, it's accountability, it's income of the students, it's
how progress is measured... Tossing money at a broken school is about as
productive as tossing money at an overdue software project. Conceivably it
could help, but the data suggests that you should fix the root cause of the
problem first.

~~~
rayiner
I'll go one further than that: we blame schools for not fixing what are
fundamentally deep-seated social, rather than educational, problems. Tossing
more money at _schools_ , broken or functional, isn't productive.

Half of all children in Chicago live in single-parent homes, and the poverty
rate for families headed by a single mother are around 40%:
[http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-11-03/news/ct-
edit-x...](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-11-03/news/ct-edit-
xproject5a-family-1103-20131103_1_fathers-mothers-many-kids). That percentage
is almost certainly much higher within the Chicago public school system, which
skews poorer than the city as a whole.

You can't have functional schools with students who have to worry more about
gang violence in their neighborhood than their grades. More money, better
curricula, better teachers, none of that matters when the social structure
outside the school is crumbling.

I imagine much of the dysfunction endemic to urban school systems is related
to the Sisyphean nature of the task we give them. We focus almost single-
mindedly on schools and education to solve all the ills of urban society. If
only our schools were functional and our teachers competent, we say, these
kids would be able to rise out of their condition and better themselves. But
teachers who teach in these systems realize the absurdity of that charge.
Stuck between a student population that needs help in ways that are not within
their power to give, and a society that fails to realize the actual needs of
these young people, teachers shift to a mode focused on self-preservation.
Hence the dysfunction present in urban school systems.

~~~
mathattack
Here's the strange thing though... Some charter schools do educate the same
poor populations, and do it well. The Success Academy [1] is very
controversial, but their kids in Harlem and the Bronx do get good test scores.
[2] One can argue that they weed out bad apples, but the numbers are still
phenomenal even if you assume they've pushed out the bottom 10%.

Of course the new mayor of New York wants to stop their growth, but that's
another complaint.

[1] [http://www.successacademies.org/](http://www.successacademies.org/)

[2] [http://projects.nytimes.com/new-york-schools-test-
scores/cou...](http://projects.nytimes.com/new-york-schools-test-
scores/counties/new-york/districts/new-york-city-district-3/schools/harlem-
success-academy-charter-school)

and

[http://perdidostreetschool.blogspot.com/2013/08/bronx-
succes...](http://perdidostreetschool.blogspot.com/2013/08/bronx-success-
academy-2-ranks-3rd-in.html)

~~~
rayiner
I'd imagine the students at charter schools have families trying very hard to
overcome the ambient culture.

~~~
mathattack
Yes, that too. But what's wrong with giving all those families opportunities
in schools that allow it, rather than forcing them into cesspools that people
are afraid to close for political reasons?

------
StefanKarpinski
My god, people. Why is there so much dickish nitpicking in this thread? This
is great news! It is mind blowing (to me at least) that basic knowledge of
programming is not a general requirement – and this is a step in the right
direction, regardless of whether the terminology is exactly fucking correct or
not.

~~~
gmichnikov
As a 5th grade teacher who teaches "computer science" among other things, I
completely agree that this is great news. Kids love learning about basic
programming concepts, and they deserve the opportunity to be exposed to
programming at a young age.

If there are any other computer science teachers on HN, I'd love to hear about
what you're up to (especially if you are using Scratch with young kids).

~~~
jrokisky
How did you become a computer science teacher? Did you get a degree in
teaching? I have my degree in cs and am interested in becoming a teacher and
trying to find as many options as possible.

~~~
gmichnikov
I joined a charter school network in NYC last summer. I am working on a
teaching degree simultaneously (there is classwork during the year, but the
bulk of the work was/will be during the summers on either side of this school
year).

I am teaching some 5th grade math and english in addition to computer science,
though if the network is able to continue to grow, there are likely to be
teachers teaching only 5th grade computer science in the very near future. Not
many NYC middle schools (charter or otherwise), offer computer science to
middle school students.

For what it's worth, my undergrad was in economics. I know enough to teach
Scratch to 5th graders, though I wouldn't sign up to teach AP Computer
Science. Like alistairSH, I also wonder where the computer science teachers
are going to come from. Genuinely wanting to work with kids every day is more
important than any of this though, in my opinion. Definitely feel free to
email me if you want to talk more about any of this.

------
IgorPartola
Pardon the aside, but:

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a
hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a
wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act
alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, _program a
computer_ , cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects." ~ Robert A Heinlein

One of my favorite quotes. (Emphasis mine.)

------
nicolethenerd
I see several comments on this thread re: 'where are they going to get the
teachers?' Not sure what Chicago is planning to do, but I'd love to see them
follow the TEALS k-12 model
([http://www.tealsk12.org/](http://www.tealsk12.org/)) - TEALS is an
organization that brings software engineers into high schools to teach
computer science (so you, yes you, can teach CS!) - there is a regular
classroom teacher in the classroom w/ you, and while they help you out w/
teaching/classroom management etc, you are helping them to learn about
computer science - so after a few semesters of assisting in intro CS classes,
these full-time teachers are prepared to teach it themselves. Awesome program.

Also, notes on AP CS - a few years ago, the AP CS AB test (this is the one
with all the data structures and stuff) was discontinued - currently the only
AP CS class that exists is the AP CS A test (that is, the easier version, that
covers a fraction of the material of the AB test). Also currently under
development is "AP CS Principles" \- an even softer, more humanities focused
AP course that deals w/ the role of computers in society in addition to
programming. I have mixed feelings about this - on one hand, it'll introduce
way more kids to computer science and give them a degree of technical literacy
that today's kids really ought to have... on the other hand, not sure how I
feel about the 'dumbing down' of the curriculum - I loved CS AB - it was
probably the best course I took in high school, and it's a shame that many
students will no longer have that opportunity.

~~~
etler
That seems like a great program. I too am skeptical about their ability to
find enough CS teachers that are qualified to teach, so I hope they have a
plan other than giving random teachers a book and setting them on their own.
If you haven't posted this to hacker news yet, you definitely should! They
look like they need and deserve more attention.

------
webo
I really don't think teaching some basic syntax and some scripting is
"computer science." It would help students a lot more if we started offering
courses like discrete mathematics instead.

~~~
sehr
I know HN is really, really focused on semantics. I know this. But seriously,
_every single time_ one of these articles pops up with the GP calling
programming 'cs', the majority of the discussion is focused on calling out how
it's incorrect.

Now I may be wrong, but I know that I personally would much rather have been
creating something with some basic syntax as opposed to learning theory while
I was in grade school. Being able to see your seemingly magical incantations
create something cool is going to be a lot more encouraging than studying
discrete mathematics.

Theory is cool. Theory has its place, but before you even encounter the
situations in which it's applicable, I'd say try making something first.

EDIT -- _Especially_ when these kids are low income. Discrete mathematics to
inner city kids is about as relatable as Biggie is to Wall Street bankers.

~~~
frostmatthew
I agree it's probably better to teach children some basic syntax instead of
discrete mathematics but I think part of webo's point was you can teach basic
syntax without _calling_ it "Computer Science"

~~~
sehr
I really don't see webo making that point, but I could be mistaken.

------
wglb
I think there is a common confusion about the term Computer Science.
Universities such as University of Chicago teach raw CS. UIUC and U. of Ill.
teaches what I would call Computer (Software) Engineering.

These courses are likely neither of the two, but more of the nature of
"practical computer programming".

~~~
sundresh
Having studied CS at UIUC, the undergrad CS curriculum on the U Chicago
website is indistinguishable from my own undergrad requirements.

I would have to agree that the public school curriculum would be about the
basics of how computer systems work and how to use them vocationally, rather
than say proofs of computational complexity.

------
vezzy-fnord
So, is it computer science or computer programming? This is only going to add
a truckload of fuel to the already huge fire that is the confusion between
computer science and computer programming.

But to be less pedantic, let's actually focus on what this will entail.

First of all, "learning to code" is as ambiguous as "learning a [natural]
language". Not all natural languages are Latin, and not all programming
languages are ALGOL.

Second, I am highly skeptical as to the intentions of this movement. Yet
criticizing it is bound to get you labeled a cynic, a Luddite, an obscurantist
or a combination of those. After all, teaching kids to code? How benevolent of
them!

Not when you realize that the big moguls standing behind this are probably
more concerned about having typists who can write instructions, rather than
skilled programmers and computer scientists. I'm not saying this out of spite,
but because of how they've presented their agenda (I'm referring to Code.org,
primarily). The sugar coating, the testimonials from everybody besides actual
computer scientists and their setting of sex quotas and affirmative action to
create the illusion of desiring equality.

Notice how they all focus on the code. They rarely even use the word
"programming". This should already set off an alarm.

As the proprietary software giants are standing by this, they are very likely
to focus on proprietary platforms. They don't talk about this, of course. It's
all about the code. About imagination, creativity and dreams. Have fun
fulfilling your dreams on a locked down tablet with a TPM chip. The issue of
software freedom, I believe, is more important than bashing instructions,
which is a skill anyone can pick up, if they so desire. But there will be none
of that. How many of these kids will be taught about GNU? I'm assuming none.
But I'm sure there's going to be lots of Visual Studio and C#, plus iOS and
Objective-C.

Ultimately, this will either drive away children from programming (depending
on how it's taught, but let's face it: compulsory schooling is notorious for
just how apt it is at sucking the life and fun out of learning... even more
when Code.org is pushing for pay deductions on teachers whose CS classrooms
consist of <40% females), or it will reduce the general quality of labor. Many
will be uninterested, many will refine their skills, but many will become
9-to-5 enterprise monkeys as a direct result of this.

I really want to support this. I do. But it really keeps looking like learning
to code is just a facade. Of course, the children will learn _something_ , but
the ulterior agenda and how their perception will be skewed is something
distressing.

~~~
adamnemecek
> Code.org is pushing for pay deductions on teachers whose CS classrooms
> consist of <40% females...

Who comes up with these things?

~~~
vezzy-fnord
I'm not sure if you're accusing me of disinformation, or if you're expressing
shock at the frivolity of the idea.

Either way, it's happening:
[http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/11/24/187255/codeorg...](http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/11/24/187255/codeorg-
more-money-for-cs-instructors-who-teach-more-girls)

~~~
dragonwriter
"Disinformation" would be an accurate description of your claim.

Code.org is not "pushing for pay deductions on teachers whose CS classrooms
consist of <40% females" as you claimed.

The actual proposal: [1]

* isn't _about_ teacher's pay, its about _classroom funding_ rewards being paid by Code.org [2]

* doesn't refer to % of class that is girls, it pays $750 if 15 _or more_ students reach a certain goals, and $1,000 if, of those 15 _or more_ , 7 _or more_ are girls.

[1] [http://code.org/educate/20hr](http://code.org/educate/20hr)

[2] Direct quote: "These rewards are not cash prizes for teachers - they are
classroom rewards. This program is not permanent, it's a one-time campaign to
see if rewards can help grow the pool of C.S. teachers and increase total
enrollment (especially by girls)."

~~~
vezzy-fnord
Very well. This is still trying to incentivize equality through what is
essentially bribery. At least they don't intend on doing it regularly, not for
now.

The rest of my claims still stand. In fact, the affirmative action is probably
one of the lesser worries. There's other, much bigger reasons.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Very well. This is still trying to incentivize equality through what is
> essentially bribery.

Its not incentivizing equality.

The major incentive is for _getting any set of 15 or more students_ through
the program. This is 75% of the potential reward.

The minor incentive is for _getting 7 or more girls in the set of 15 or more
students_. This is obviously not an incentive for equality (as, at the minimum
number of total students and girls for the incentive, its _not equal_ , and,
there's no ratio-based requirement -- if you get 30 students through and only
7 are girls, you get the same _additional_ $250 on top of the base $750 as if
you get 15 students through and 7 were girls.)

In addition to not being "incentivizing equality", I don't see how rewarding
what works in acheiving goals is bribery.

> The rest of my claims still stand.

The rest of your claims are unsupported fuzzy generalities. In the one case
you discussed an easily verifiable fact claim, it was completely wrong. I
don't see any reason to assume that your generalities are based on any clearer
of a picture of reality than your simple fact claim.

------
tslathrow
Unrelated: Don't go to UChicago if you want to study CS. The department isn't
built out.

Consider UPenn SEAS or Columbia Fu for a similar tier CS program.

It's really excellent for economics (which I was considering), but ended up
not going to Chicago after talking to some of the comp sci majors.

~~~
dcre
That's not completely fair: the math department is world-class, and the
computer science department is sort of an offshoot of it. It does have a very
theoretical bent. That doesn't mean it's bad.

~~~
sillysaurus2
He didn't say it's bad, but rather that it's not built out. It's true that all
else equal, UChicago isn't a good choice for CS.

Anyone have thoughts about UIC? djb is a professor there, and it seems like
their CS department is pretty extensive.

~~~
onedev
As well all know though, UIUC is where it's at for CS.

~~~
selectodude
Of course, but I would say UIC is very good as well.

------
bane
So right now is the time to start a long-term study on all of the students who
go through the program to see if it prepares them better for CS/various
engineering disciplines in higher-ed.

------
frozenport
Schools will need to teach this instead of core performance indicators.

Unlike reading, math, and science, there exists no relevant metric for
measuring 'computer science' proficiency.

------
spitfire
Computer Science or Programming?

There's a wide gap between the sorts of problems you can solve (or even
identify) with the two skill sets.

~~~
yen223
Hopefully the latter. There's no practical reason for a biologist to
understand Djikstra's algorithm, but a lot of professions will benefit from
being able to code up helper scripts.

~~~
randomdata
Perhaps my view is blurred by being a programmer, but I have never found the
skill to be particularly useful in my non-programming side businesses. It is a
nice idea that biologists will write helper scripts, but my experience in the
real world is more like:

1\. Someone has already written the code, so there is no reason to write it
again

2\. The problem is big enough that you are going to end up spending all your
time programming, taking time away from what you should really be working on

And maybe there is a need for biologists working on new research where there
are no existing tools that match what they are working on, but I don't think
that is something that extends to a lot of professions.

~~~
SonOfLilit
Hi!

I'm really interested in this, and all my anecdotal data (in the hundreds of
points) points against what you're saying. I'd love to discuss your
experience. I can also bring a few biologists into the discussion, to make it
more interesting.

Could you please email me at my nick on gmail?

------
georgehaake
Lipstick on a pig...

------
ffrryuu
There goes the job market

------
xname
Wow. Read the comments make me wondering why so many geeks are so incapable of
thinking social issues. Do you guys have even a little bit of sense of human
feeling?

How come this is a good news? If the news says Chicago students love computer
science, it could be a good news. But it is not what the news said. Instead,
the news is: all Chicago students will be Required to learn computer science.
How can this be a good news?

Will you consider requiring all students to join football team or to play
piano a good news?

Unbelievable ...

