
Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy - mqt
http://www.paulgraham.com/badeconomy.html
======
brk
Good article, but I disagree with the Microsoft/Apple example in the
beginning. MS and Apple happened to come along when the microcomputer was
really starting to take off, and they were able to ride that wave (while
1000's of other microcomputer startups crashed).

One thing that worries me personally about starting the "stereotypical" HN
startup right now, is that I think the free/fremium model is going to lose
steam FAST. My prediction is that you will see more companies trying to start
monetizing their web-app soon. FWIW, TipJoy is well positioned to take
advantage of this if my prediction is true.

Of course, I've always been a hardware/product startup hacker, but I've had a
couple of rounds in software and Web 2.0 companies. So, I'm not as immersed in
web-app funding cycles as some others here are.

I would look to solar and certain other viable alternative energy options
right now as the next major tech growth sector. I think the tech startup world
needs to see more "inventions" (again, admitting my own bias).

While many here may disagree with me, one of the problems with web-apps is
that while they are cheap to get going (relatively speaking), I think that the
saturation of non-revenue producing web-app companies, coupled with the low
cost of starting them, will make many traditional VCs look elsewhere for their
next investments. The web-app community needs more investors like YC, that
keep the investments and process realistic.

~~~
pg
_MS and Apple happened to come along when the microcomputer was really
starting to take off, and they were able to ride that wave_

That was the point I was making with those examples: that technology evolves
independently of the stock market. So if it's time to build the Apple I or
Altair Basic, do it whether the economy is good or bad.

~~~
zhyder
Technology doesn't evolve independently of a market for it. While "make
something people want" is true in any economy, the problem is that what people
want changes with the state of the economy. So startup founders need to
reassess the market for their products (building iPods or building
pacemakers?), and I'd guess many will decide this is not the right economy for
their startups, and some will now discover new opportunities.

You do touch upon this a little bit in your article, where you mention
startups that save customers money will succeed more in a bad economy. But I
thought the more general assertion wasn't made.

~~~
sutro
I've often thought that the mantra _make something people want_ should be
amended to _make something people want to pay for_. It's an important
distinction. It's the difference between Richard Stallman and Steve Jobs,
between Linus Torvalds and Bill Gates. I have great respect for all of those
individuals, but I don't look to Stallman or Torvalds for _business_
inspiration. I don't doubt that all YC companies have made something people
want, but I wonder whether all have made something people want to pay for.

~~~
Ezra
Neither Stallman nor Torvalds are scrambling to pay rent.

So it depends if you want to be "well off" (Stallman), "obscenely rich"
(Torvalds), "shockingly rich" (Jobs), or "embarassingly rich" (Gates).

And I think that most would, given the choice, rather be the BDFL of a project
they obviously enjoy (Torvalds), than spend all day in meetings, or managing
management, or whatever Gates has done for the last decade. Unless you're a
masochist, or a megalomaniac.

And besides that, lightning has to strike the same place 200 times before you
make it to the 99.9th percentile.

"I'm trying to make a living; if you're trying to make a killing then you're
stuck in the system."

~~~
helveticaman
>Neither Stallman nor Torvalds are scrambling to pay rent.

I've heard rumors that Torvalds wishes he had the money Jobs and Gates have.
So, yeah, a little unhappy.

>And besides that, lightning has to strike the same place 200 times before you
make it to the 99.9th percentile.

That's if you're in a bell-curve. If you're in a zipf-distribution, lightning
only has to strike once.

------
aaronsw
This article seems to ignore the main argument I've heard: exit strategies are
fewer in a recession. IPOs are out of the question and few companies are in an
acquisition mood. So instead of growing fast and selling out before you hit
your plateau, you have keep your traffic climbing until the market picks back
up. That's really hard, esp. since founders have a tendency to get bored. I
expect many will start something new at that point anyway, so I can see why
it'd be tempting to skip the step in between. (That said, it's hard to think
of a better way to spend the time -- even a failed startup's more educational
than grad school.)

~~~
incomethax
While exit strategies might be fewer during a recession, the point of starting
now is that the economy will (hopefully) be out of the recession by the time
you want to exit (typically beyond 12-18 months).

~~~
pg
Yes. Startups generally take 3-5 years to succeed. The economic situation that
far ahead is effectively random, so you can discount it.

~~~
fallentimes
Just curious, how do you define succeed? Founders becoming millionaires or?

------
charlesju
Another great essay Paul, I wrote up a blog post with similar conclusions last
week: [http://www.charlesju.com/2008/10/5-ways-recessions-help-
star...](http://www.charlesju.com/2008/10/5-ways-recessions-help-
startups.html)

Sorry for the plug, I just thought it was funny that we're on the same side of
the equation, when everyone else in the world isn't.

It seems to me that somewhere along the evolution of the internet we forgot
the golden rule of any business:

If you make stuff people want, they'll pay for it (either directly or
indirectly), and you'll make money. Recession or not.

------
einarvollset
Totally unrelated:

Clicked through to Bountii, and then onto their API TOS, and found this:

"[you agree not to] use the Bountii API to operate nuclear facilities, life
support, or other mission critical application where human life or property
may be at stake. You understand that the Bountii API is not designed for such
purposes and that their failure in such cases could lead to death, personal
injury, or severe property or environmental damage for which Bountii is not
responsible;"

Me he heeeeeee

~~~
jpuskarich
Sorry for the oversight; we just added "unmanned aircraft" to that list.

~~~
maxklein
What about to build guns which are intended to kill human beings?

------
edw519
_It's not necessarily a problem if customers feel pinched: you may even be
able to benefit from it, by making things that save money._

Funny, you can take the _exact same software_ and position it as a totally
different product in a different economy.

Instead of "This software does a better job," imagine, "Our subscription fee
is 10% your current cost of ownership. How will that affect your budget?"

Once your customers start shopping with a "recession mindset", you'll already
be positioned before your competitors.

 _Without changing a single line of code._

------
Alex3917
"Last year you had to be prepared to explain how your startup was viral. Next
year you'll have to explain how it's recession-proof."

In my experience, what's true of investors here is also true of potential co-
founders. It's so much easier to get other people to work with you if your
project is in a trendy field or appeals to the dominant logic of the
afternoon. And it's really really frustrating.

/end rant

~~~
shimon
Think of it as an easy way to screen out people who would be uncreative and
uncommited. Less signal, but a higher signal to noise ratio.

~~~
jackchristopher
It felt like Paul was going to make a hard statement like that, but edited it.

But _I_ was thinking, "If the economy is stopping you, you're not the type to
start one."

~~~
pg
I never said it in the essay, but we have actually been thinking it at YC. One
of the hardest things we have to do in the selection process is filter out
people who are smart but uncommitted. (Smartness is much easier to judge than
commitment in a 10-minute interview.) And now the economy is going to be doing
it for us. So frankly I'd prefer to be operating in a mild recession.
Unfortunately this one sounds like it is scheduled to be a few notches above
mild.

~~~
rokahn
My tiny startup has a small but stable amount of funding. In our case, it's
enough to provide a two-year runway to finish development and iterate the
product a couple of times before reaching break-even.

Up until this month, I've had trouble finding A-list programmers because I
don't offer a large salary and benefits. This month, I've suddenly found it
easier to attract high-skill employees and I expect it to get easier still as
the recession deepens. Many are involved in loss-generating startups which
they anticipate will soon fail as funding dries up. (Not all these experts
choose to return to grad school...some, for instance, are too old for that
culture shift or don't have liquid assets to sustain them.)

As you discuss, the recession may make it easier or harder for startups
depending on their value proposition and their reliance on additional
investments. I encourage you to write on how easier access to expert
programmers changes the equation. In my case, I must decide whether to commit
our resources to, say, hire another brilliant programmer because it's now
possible OR to hold at our current headcount to maximize survivability.

Another variable is whether brilliant hires in this economy are likely to
stick with the company when the economy improves in, say 12-18 months. An HR
expert who's weathered a few of these cycles pointed out that while it's
easier to hire good people in a recession, some of these hires are more likely
to jump ship when the economy turns around. I think the description would be
"fair weather hires".

------
davidw
I think it's fairly easy to write those things. What will be more interesting
is actual data after a few YC rounds in a weaker economy.

------
mapleoin
pg was a lot more fun when he used to talk about other things than making
money all the time.

~~~
pg
One of the strange consequences of writing about several mostly unrelated
topics is that you pick up readers with quite different interests. Then
whatever you write next, the ones not interested in that topic complain that
you've jumped the shark. I doubt I've written a single essay since about 2002
when someone didn't say something of the form "pg was ok when he was writing
about x, but I wish he would stop writing about y."

And incidentally, it's not the making money aspect of startups that interests
me the most. I'm mostly interested in startups as agents of change. We could
right now be in the middle of a shift on the scale of the Industrial
Revolution. Or not; always hard to tell from so close. But there is certainly
something interesting happening.

~~~
michael_nielsen
There's a wonderful quote from Brian Eno about the conservative force that
comes from having people who like your work:

"I'm afraid to say that admirers can be a tremendous force for conservatism,
for consolidation. Of course it's really wonderful to be acclaimed for things
you've done - in fact it's the only serious reward, because it makes you think
"it worked! I'm not isolated!" or something like that, and it makes you feel
gratefully connected to your own culture. But on the other hand, there's a
tremendously strong pressure to repeat yourself, to do more of that thing we
all liked so much. I can't do that - I don't have the enthusiasm to push
through projects that seem familiar to me ( - this isn't so much a question of
artistic nobility or high ideals: I just get too bloody bored), but at the
same time I do feel guilt for 'deserting my audience' by not doing the things
they apparently wanted. I'd rather not feel this guilt, actually, so I avoid
finding out about situations that could cause it. The problem is that people
nearly always prefer what I was doing a few years earlier - this has always
been true. The other problem is that so, often, do I! Discovering things is
clumsy and sporadic, and the results don't at first compare well with the
glossy and lauded works of the past. You have to keep reminding yourself that
they went through that as well, otherwise they become frighteningly
accomplished. That's another problem with being made to think about your own
past - you forget its genesis and start to feel useless awe towards your
earlier self: "How did I do it? Wherever did these ideas come from?". Now, the
workaday everyday now, always looks relatively less glamorous than the rose-
tinted then (except for those magic hours when your finger is right on the
pulse, and those times only happen when you've abandoned the lifeline of your
own history)."

------
JoelSutherland
It is nice to read some sober thinking on the economy...

PG has it exactly right. Startups are HARD and there are so many factors that
are more important than the state of economy.

The odds of success are low enough with a startup already that the economy
shouldn't really change the decision making process.

~~~
wyclif
Don't forget that economic downturns, whether real or imagined, are another
barrier to entry for your competition.

------
maxklein
This article is titled wrongly. It should not be called "Why to startup in a
bad economy", but "Why to startup, even if the economy is bad".

~~~
ksvs
Don't quit your day job.

------
akkartik
_"What if you quit your job to start a startup that fails, and you can't find
another? Good hackers can always get some kind of job. It might not be your
dream job, but you're not going to starve."_

Hmm, isn't that kind of a low bar? I worry that I'll be 40 before I know it,
with no savings to show for my years of work. Isn't opportunity cost a
concern?

Perhaps PG really _is_ writing for the young.

~~~
ashr
I sure get the same impression. Start ups are for twenty somethings who are
not married. If you are 30+, married and with a mortgage then forget it.

~~~
kapitti
I'm 26, married with a mortgage, car payment, student loans, etc. The economy
isn't going to stop me - my wife is willing to sell our house at the drop of a
hat if we have to, move to another city if we have to, etc. You sacrifice
short term for the long term gain, and if you're married to someone that
supports you, they ride the roller coaster with you.

------
mattmaroon
"investors tend to be less willing to invest in bad times. They shouldn't be.
"

Angels probably should. Many of them just had a 20%+ decrease in their net
wealth. Investing is an activity for them, like golf, not a profession. They
shouldn't make themselves feel uncomfortable financially.

There's a difference between which action has the highest EV and which one you
should take.

~~~
fallentimes
But don't you think they'd witness a similar discount in the valuations?

~~~
mattmaroon
Of course, but they've already achieved independent wealth, why risk it? Extra
money to them is just icing on the cake at this point. Investing is basically
a hobby for them, and when their money starts to evaporate, it's the first
thing they will (and should) cut out.

~~~
nostrademons
Do angels really risk money that they can't afford to lose? I'd think that
most of them would sock away enough to remain financially independent in safe
investments, and then do their investing with "play money".

~~~
mattmaroon
They probably don't risk money they can't afford to lose. But if you figure an
angel invests 20% of his money in startups, and the stock market comes along
and reduces his total net worth by 20%, how much is he going to invest now?
How much if he invests 10% in startups and the stock market hits him for 30%?

It may not be 0, because he may have had other expenses and investments that
he prioritizes angel investing over, but it probably won't still be 20%. The
total dollar amount he'll be willing to stick into high-risk investments will
probably decrease.

I'm talking on average, of course. Each individual will vary according to
their net worth, lifestyle, investment philosophy, etc.

------
rgrieselhuber
Great article and the example from the 70s (brk has some good points) was a
good one. A LOT of innovation happened in what were very difficult times on a
macro level. Living / working cheap is absolutely key. I knew the economy was
going to tank back in January when I started my company, but I still did it.

I'd also like to see more "inventions" (another good point from brk). There
may be a certain amount of critical mass of development that has to happen
around other technologies. The last 10 years or so have seen optimization in
the development cycle for web apps, resulting in their relative low barrier of
entry today. It could be my ignorance, but I don't detect the same level of
commoditization in other industries. Of course, a higher barrier of entry is
great for the people already involved.

Another way to look at the "inventions" issue is the rather quick evolution of
non-web technologies to web accessible interfaces. We've seen this happen with
telephony, video, radio, print, television, navigation, security systems, and
many more, I'm sure. It's pretty amazing actually. I think you'll continue to
see more of this over the next few years, so we'll all still have stuff to
work on.

------
toby
"If we've learned one thing from funding so many startups, it's that they
succeed or fail based on the qualities of the founders. The economy has some
effect, certainly, but as a predictor of success it's rounding error compared
to the founders."

This is confusing -- wasn't Y Combinator started in 2005? Was PG funding
startups before that?

~~~
JeffJenkins
Yes, and I have no idea. We should see in 3-5 years whether that statement is
true or not. I'd guess not, although I'm not sure to what degree.

------
thierryhubert
Your article is very timely. In fact I have a start-up that I have been
building with a small team paid by sweat-equity. I also have an excellent and
motivated business partner & co-founder who I trust and I keep on admiring his
dedication and motivation despite having the most difficult time in raising
seed money (apparently a requirement/excuse for VCs to event get involved). We
are building a Web utility that facilitates information consumption. We are
testing it with friends and family and the results are very encouraging. Given
the state of the economy and the lack of financial resources, we have decided
to continue to boot-strap our business and we will be releasing our Web tool
for people to use. By the way, I found your article this morning using our
product. The idea is to introduce it and demonstrate its usefulness through
actual usage and viral distribution. We are also reducing our initial set of
features to reduce the risk and wait for a measurable adoption rate to make a
stronger case for funding. We are not serial entrepreneurs and deeply believe
in what we have. We are convinced that with our passion, on-going re-
enforcement from our users, the academic community and peers, we have what we
need to fuel our passion and success. We are confident that we will succeed
regardless of the investor community’s current mood. Thanks for a great
article!

Thierry Hubert

------
silverton
This post is almost entirely dead WRONG. It's revenue that matters, period.
"People" are not what matters. Satisfied customers matter. If you provide a
product or service that people are willing to pay for, then nothing ...
NOTHING can take that from you. You don't NEED investors. Get off that trip.
This article mentioned that, "the reason Larry and Sergey are so rich is not
so much that they've done work worth tens of billions of dollars, but that
they were the first investors in Google." Sorry, but again WRONG. The reason
they are so rich compared to the rest of us is that we've lost track of the
concept that we live in a Shared Fate world. We're all in this together, but
we've forgotten that fact. It is physically and philosophically IMPOSSIBLE for
any individual human being to be worth BILLIONS more than any other human
being. We all put our pants on one leg at a time and we all only have 24 hours
in a day. "All men are created equal." Remember that? It's called the
Declaration of Independence. I believe your writing eminates from the right
motives, but it fosters many of the wrong reactions and sentiments. Find a
customer. Provide what the customer requires. No customer, no business. End of
story. Yes, this post is intentionally terse and dialectical in order to to
elicit meaningful dialog instead of pointless ass kissing.

~~~
9keme
I agree that felt-value constitutes reality in business, on both sides, the
value of having a vendor and the value of having a client, both orbiting a
meaningful transaction.

However I balk at the Declaration of Independence as the basis for this. It is
part of cosmic law that seemingly disparate parts be unified as events in time
and space.

The time prior to now was more available to this awareness, but incompletely
conscious of this underlying basis for justice, commerce, etc. We have no
pants, basically.

The internet has exposed this issue we have of whether to actually work for
the true common good, for the Universal interest and no a niche freedom like
americanic liberty or romantic imperial entitlement, or whether we are doing
the fun thing - being king, being the man, being the world authority, but not
the real, messy, selfless, egoless world leader. The leader serves the
universal interest. The merely free do not have this underlying responsibility
to the people. Whether in america, rome, babylon, sumaria, russia, the little
people and the heavy heavies must be on the same platform, or there is no
genuine premise of law.

So that is the dynamic under the problem internet companies have. Solving the
underlying dynamic will be required to solve the problem on top - revenue.
Once this dynamic of congruence with the universe fruits, as it is today,
there will no longer be quixotism in human interactions.I agree that felt-
value constitutes reality in business, on both sides, the value of having a
vendor and the value of having a client, both orbiting a meaningful
transaction.

However I balk at the Declaration of Independence as the basis for this. It is
part of cosmic law that seemingly disparate parts be unified as events in time
and space.

The time prior to now was more available to this awareness, but incompletely
conscious of this underlying basis for justice, commerce, etc. We have no
pants, basically.

The internet has exposed this issue we have of whether to actually work for
the true common good, for the Universal interest and no a niche freedom like
americanic liberty or romantic imperial entitlement, or whether we are doing
the fun thing - being king, being the man, being the world authority, but not
the real, messy, selfless, egoless world leader. The leader serves the
universal interest. The merely free do not have this underlying responsibility
to the people. Whether in america, rome, babylon, sumaria, russia, the little
people and the heavy heavies must be on the same platform, or there is no
genuine premise of law.

So that is the dynamic under the problem internet companies have. Solving the
underlying dynamic will be required to solve the problem on top - revenue.
Once this dynamic of congruence with the universe fruits, as it is today,
there will no longer be quixotism in human interactions.

~~~
silverton
9Keme wrote, "The merely free do not have this underlying responsibility to
the people."

Beautiful. Declaration of INTERdependence time?

------
fallentimes
_"Last year you had to be prepared to explain how your startup was viral. Next
year you'll have to explain how it's recession-proof."_

You should have to explain how it's going to make money, no matter the
economy. Founders need to stop thinking they can just magically monetize later
after reaching one fobillion users. If it happens, awesome, but don't bank on
it. Google was an anomaly, but you wouldn't know it from the attitudes of
others towards them.

~~~
mariorz
Do you have examples of sites with a "fobillion" (or close) users that still
failed? I'm really curious. The examples I can think of, like friendster,
really went under because of lack of users.

I agree that you shouldn't bank on getting this fobillion users and after that
monetizing them. But that's because the real hard part is getting that much
users in the first place.

~~~
fallentimes
That was an obvious hyperbole. The point is: 50,000 or even 100,000 users =!
success, and you don't necessarily need users to make money (although it
helps!).

~~~
emmett
The grow-users-before-revenue strategy has several spectacular success
stories: Google, YouTube, Facebook, Flickr, MySpace, etc. etc.

That's not to say it's the only valid strategy, but it's certainly a valid
strategy. In fact, it probably has the highest payoff, albeit with the highest
variance.

~~~
bad_user
From my pov those are anomalies, rather than the norm. For every Google,
Youtube and Facebook, there are thousands of startups with similar strategies
that fail.

I think it is safer to go the long route and start small, working your way to
the top, charging a price right from the beginning. If your application is
useful, users will pay for it.

~~~
axod
By doing that you limit your growth rate, and your maximum size.

Charging up front puts people off, whereas if you slowly incrementally
introduce revenue later, they will probably be hooked by then.

~~~
bad_user
When you're introducing revenue later, you have to provide extra value. This
means more features and so you're endangering your core values.

When you're starting to charge for existing features, by limiting the free
accounts, you will surely upset your existing users. Google tried to introduce
advertising in YouTube videos, and the community was not happy about it ...
and imagine a site like YouTube placing a limit on how many videos you can
watch. No matter how hooked your users are, you still can lose them, not to
mention that popular services like YouTube got cloned and there is competition
waiting for those users.

People have been charging money or other goods in exchange for
products/services since forever. I don't really understand this trend of
releasing products for free. The only viable exit strategy is for your company
to be acquired by a big player, but if you want your business model to be
sustainable you should question this trend.

------
shortbusgeek
Personally I believe a recession is the best time to start a startup. Thinking
of the amount of time and effort it takes to get a good startup going
(typically), the economy could be coming out of a recession by the time you're
ready to seek capital. Sure, you'll have to bootstrap, as angel investors will
be far and few between, but it's definitley do-able.

I've got 3 different ventures going on right now that I've been working on for
2 years, 1 year, and 6 months, respectively. The one that's 2 years old I
won't be ready for venture capital for another 2 years probably. The one that
is a year old could theoretically be ready for funding in another year, and
the 6 month old I'm hoping to not even seek funding, but to just grow from the
ground up into a profitable business a year from now as well. The three
somewhat interconnect and can use features of each other, which will hopefully
help propel each towards success. Either way, I'm taking advantage of the
current recession as best as I can. Pageviews are up, my alexa traffic
rankings are going the right way, and revenues continue to increase. All good
signs that sometimes it's a recession that helps startups. :-)

------
fishonmars
I totally agree. I used to be dilbert in a cube working for Charles Schwab
writing code 10 to 12 hours per day (and weekends) and then poof I got laid
off and my job went to India. But before that my co-workers were jumping ship
to work at startups and I thought they were nuts. I'm now working on my third
startup and this one has a chance because I'm competing with eBay
(4cheetahs.com). Even working for a billion dollars company on multi-million
dollar project with egotistical personalities decked out all in black attire
and goatees doesn't guarantee you won't get laid off or canned for not writing
code fast enough. Now is the perfect time to start a startup becuase you can
recruit more people who will work for experience. My first startup was Big
Bear and I recruited engineers off of craigslist for free to compete with
Tivo. In a year they had built a new technology to modify (in one minute) any
vcr or dvdr to be programmed from a computer through wireless or usb or over
the web or a cell phone. Just couldn't get funding. Then I tried competing
with Match.com and the site never launched and I focused on recruiting do-
nothing MBAs from our countries finest business schools (another waste of
time). This time I only care about programmers. I've interviewed more than 100
MBAs they are as different in their views as economists are about the economy
and most couldn't write a line of code to save their life. All I care about is
building a team of good programmers. Thus far I've found two to join the
cause. Site goes up next month and I'm pretty jazzed about that. If I had a
well paid job I wouldn't take the plunge in a startup. I'd be too chicken. But
since I've been out of work since 9/11 it's much easier to take the plunge and
I don't care nor thinking about the risk. Everything and anything you do in
life involves risk. You only live once. You might as well be rich that's my
motto.

------
velshin
I searched this comments page for "food" and interestingly, I didn't see any
comments pointing out that starting a tech startup is a (temporary) vow of
poverty. This is exacerbated in a recession, when it's often more difficult to
find investment capital for rapid growth.

A point that seems lost in pg's recent start-the-startup cheerleading is that
you need to be able to eat, pay rent, etc. Even if you're in your 20's and
have a good chunk of money saved up, how long will it last? A year? Two? What
if you don't see a paycheck for that long? Will there really be that many tech
jobs available to "fall back on"? Part of the definition of a recession is a
contraction of employment. That means tech jobs are less available, too.

These reality checks shouldn't stop anyone, but it'd be nice to see a reminder
from Graham once in awhile to do the maths (personal budget etc.) and be
realistic. A lot fewer tech workers are in the financial position to start a
startup than they realize.

Ramen money indeed!

~~~
morphle2
Velshin,

That is reality. But it is also reality that these kind of amounts (if you're
careful in what you're spending), can be earned in a few days a month doing
something you're good at. Just trust in your own qualities.

------
bluenove
I believe that beyond 'creating a startup', it is rather INNOVATION that is
something that is more than ever needed in times of crisis and recession. That
is both true for startup companies and may be even more so for major
corporations and brands. And even more during deep crisis when internal
resources are lacking and budget shrinking, major corporations will have no
other choice than managing innovation in an 'Open and collaborative' new way,
and especially collaborating with innovative startups... These major
corporations will therefore have to transform themselves into 'Open
innovation' champions faster than what they would have done in a more
'comfortable' economy. From a crisis to an opportunity ? PS: this change
management mission is the 'raison d'etre' of bluenove (www.bluenove.com), and
as its CEO and founder i still consider we are in a startup phase so this
article is for the least quite supportive ;-)

------
ibeam2000
I just went ahead and did it, irrespective of what the economy was doing.
Twice, no four times. On two continents. Damn the torpedoes and all that. OK,
I did niche consulting and picked a business model which very much tried to
save the client money. Problem is that niches come and go, and the challenge
now is to find a new racket.

I suppose I could try inventing something new. Now is a great time to do it.
Of course, I will probably fail, but so what. If I make time to do it, I will
certainly have at least a bit more time to ride my bike around and stall that
looming congestive heart failure.

But seriously, if you have a little bit of cash, or better, still have a bit
of cash coming in, extra help won't get any cheaper than it is now. If I'm in
Europe, I'll outsource to the USA.

We never tried to make money - it just happened. Sure, it was much closer to
Stallman than Billy Goat, but it paid for the house and will send my kid to
MIT.

------
adityag
I believe there is no good or bad time to start a startup. As far as economy
is concern, it's more dependent on the perspective you take to look at it. I
work for a software maker up in northwest, and everytime I think about opening
a startup, I meet a few people suggesting against it with economy as the
reason. When the economy is good and our company's stock is going up, the
normal advice is:"you know you will be much better-off sticking here for some
more time because we are doing so good right now." And now when the economy is
down and our stocks are hitting the bottom, the advice is: "this is not the
right time to leave the company and open a startup. You won't get funding and
with our stocks so low, you will be broke bootstrapping your startup." My
perspective: well I got a good idea and great co-founder, let's go for it. We
will figure how to survive the economy on the way.

------
fishonmars
How could I forget. Setting up serve space and a database takes time and money
too. And then there is setting up a credit card account so people can pay more
easily on your site if you are taking money. Then there's the setting up of
the business account at the bank and waiting for eons to get a Federal Tax ID
number. I switched over my previous FTID to my new site from my old site
because my old site never launched (thank God) but banks do drag their feet in
opening up a business credit card account which is needed to set up a merchant
account with Amazon Simple Pay since I won't be allowing PayPal since eBay
owns them and I'm competing with eBay. The biggest drawback of a startup is
the lack of sleep but the biggest benefit is no commute time so you save a
fortune in not driving much. So it's a lot more then merely writing code. You
need shelter (a place to live) and money for food and rent and utilites and
gasoline for the car. Then unexpected bills like speeding tickets, car
registration, smog check, and car insurance it all adds up fast and at a
frightening pace. So I don't go insane I visit one of my brothers who's
studying for his PhD in CS at UC Santa Cruz and I've promised him a job when
he graduates. He thinks in C and Lisp and can write bug free code. He's not
human. So I spend money keeping him well fed. So sacrifices need to be made.
And if your site grows you're going to need more servers and more databases
and they run on electricity not oxygen and that costs money. I would think it
would be educational and a good thing for all universities to house startups
on campus to study them and learn from them but I agree with PG that it's the
founders, dedication, determination and not stubbornness. There is a lot of
uncertainty too. I just visualize the site working and it keeps me going. I
watch videos of soldiers in Iraq fighting on YouTube and then I don't mind so
much writing code. At least nobody is shooting at me when I'm writing code.
And it's good to take breaks and relax sometimes because you need to unplug
from the matrix so that you have a life outside of your code.

------
gengstrand
Thanks for the informative and inspirational message. I linked to it from
[http://ploneglenn.blogspot.com/2008/10/where-angels-fear-
to-...](http://ploneglenn.blogspot.com/2008/10/where-angels-fear-to-
tread.html)

You are right. It is all about cost containment in times like this and
providing a cheaper alternative is the ticket. That is why I started
<http://www.dynamicalsoftware.com> with its flagship product <http://www.code-
roller.com> whose vision is a marketplace of entrepreneurs, evangelists,
experts, and enthusiasts of software development that uses time tested, best-
of-breed SDLC deliverables and work flow for a higher quality, faster time to
market, yet more affordable alternative to getting custom software done.

------
mrtron
Great point. For some more anecdotal evidence, check out the first tech
company I worked for:

[http://finance.google.ca/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds...](http://finance.google.ca/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=1&chdet=1224187200000&chddm=1274660&q=NASDAQ:OTEX&ntsp=0)

Immediately after the dot com bust, they were acquiring companies and hiring
like crazy. The general pace of the stock market had little to do with how
they were performing. It was a bit surprising considering they produce an
enterprise software package and you would expect sales to be heavily tied to
the market. But they produced a quality product that people wanted, and were
able to push the knowledge management/collaboration angle well enough that
companies felt like it was an investment they were making.

~~~
alecco
Yeah, buying on recession is great. But you have to have the cash first. Not
exactly a startup situation.

------
ODBS
I disagree with comments attacking a money motive. If you don't want to get
rich, than do something significant with your life - if you can, then give the
money away or help others in some way. And I don't think you really meant
greed or you would have said that, and the essay doesn't say go be greedy.

I also agree strongly with the consequences of fear, and how everyone else
seems to be cowering in the corner. I am on the tech train and I have it
almost entirely to myself. I recently attended some security functions, and it
suddenly hit me how this field is begging for innovation. Of all the products
and all the big name providers, it was nothing but me-too and do-it-again in a
different package. Everyone I talked to from sales to tech, wanted one thing
and one thing only - to play it safe and keep their job.

------
morphle
I agree completely. I have done startups before during recessions, and never
had any problems because of them. Cofounders are a little harder to find, at
least those who listen to the gloomy news and are scared because of it.
However, good cofounders are easier to spot during recessions.

~~~
tdavidson
Agreed. Recessions flatten the mediocre but reward the great.

------
ebauer
Interesting article: Your are absolutely correct about “the state of the
economy doesn't matter much either way"---I personally believed that starting
up a company in today's economy is an advantage because as you mentioned in
your essay there are less competitors in the market place-which makes it
easier to growth a business!! Ultimately, before you go into a business –it is
necessary to do your research about the market and your competitors, such as,
marketplace trends, problems with product and services, how problems can be
corrected, get ideas for new products and applications-submit your own
questions to discussion groups to get valuable feedbacks- it is up to the
business owner to be successful. Again, Thak you for your article
www.empresademercadeo.com

------
netcan
One of the underlying things here is that there is very little use saying 'bad
economy' & leaving it at that. Bad what? What are the actual effects.

A startup might be affected by:

Customers/market - These are not necessarily the problem. True. Particularly
if you are evolving in this economy, Like a Neanderthal in an ice age. This
point is probably neutral on average.

Investors - This may be a problem. This is a _market_ that can shy. But only a
problem if you need them. This point is negative.

Buyers- (Of some description) Definitely a negative. But you don't need them
right away & you can probably be more flexible waiting for the right time. If
Cockaroach doesn't do it.. endospore.

You can't have everything. Comeptitors - A plus. Fewer investors (including
founders as the essay implies) by definition means fewer startups.

------
tom8williams
I agree totally about starting up something in a down economy. It's a great
time to test the waters, position yourself for growth and then scale like
crazy when the economy thaws. No good surfer ever catches a wave while it's
breaking...by that time, it's too late and your eating coral reef. Good surfer
bob up and down watching the horizon for the good wave... the big one. They
see it before it ever starts to break and they're paddling at just the right
time to nail it. Such is the start up entrepreneur in the bad economy. My
company, InnoGage, will be able to weather this storm in the higher ed market,
but we will be positioned for the global economy when it thaws.

Tom Williams <http://blog.innogage.com>

------
satyajit
I don't necessarily think PG is all about making money. In fact in a recent
London talk
([http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/142733/Audio/Lectures/future_of_w...](http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/142733/Audio/Lectures/future_of_web_startups_pg.mp3)),
he talks more about hackers' freedom. Hackers are animals shackled in
corporate zoos, and they need to be freed to express/invent! He also goes on
to say, you can even pay them less, as long you provide them the freedom to
release their energy! PG's mantra is a super powerful one: Make something
people want, which also translates to 'Create something, make money while
making something you love and your customers love'! That's empowering...

------
dwoolley
I've always found that large competitors tighten up and don't release
progressive new products during downturns. At the same time, new/small
competitors are reluctant to start. That means there's no better time from a
competitive stand-point. Now, investors will be reluctant, but if you are in a
position to not need investors (self-financed), then I think it's an optimum
time. Once up and running, with products released, the inevitable rising tide
of the new economy will float all boats. Continue keeping expenses low and
other disciplines ingrained during the downturn, and ride the new tide up.

------
kosso
As usual, wise words. Thanks. ;)

You just reinforced what I have been saying to people about what I'm doing as
a one-man startup with phreadz.com in these tough, cold times.

People are out there building, or trying to build solutions to problems I have
already solved on my own. So, now I can save them a whole lot of time and
money by providing a solution for them right now. Hopefully this will help get
them where they want/need to be without over-spending.

Also, the fact that investors and clients will get a good deal now, if they
jump on board now is a good thing, so we can all reap the benefits on the up-
swing.

Thanks for yet another great article.

Kosso Founder : Phreadz.com

------
clarkdever
I like how when PG writes an article, there about about double or triple the
comments on hackernews compared to any other random submission.

The line I found most valuable, is the reason I first decided to start a
company. 'Markets don't "reduce headcount."' the most security you can have is
working for yourself... or the government... but I think most of the "startup
types" dread the idea of the bureaucracy. We like the freedom to rise or fall
based on our own abilities, the freedom to make something that is going to
change the world. The majority of hackers I know are revolutionaries, not
reformers.

------
paines
Paul, I think you are wrong with that one. Who would lend NOW a bunch of (IT)
guys money for a startup. A bank ?!?! No! Rather the mob. The reason why
Viaweb/MS/Apple were succesfull is that they invented / did stuff that didn't
existed at that point. You /They created a market where there was none. Back
in these days there was a small amount of technology and a small group of
people who understood it. Nowadays it's much tougher with competition from
anywhere and anyone has access to loads of information and technology.
Regards, Anes

------
kjgillett
Interesting read...I just found an interview of a CEO of a business
development firm who say the economy is BS. And in fact, it is not only a good
time, but the BEST time, to start a business in a rough economy. You can call
BS on his opinion even here: [http://downtobusiness.com/bs-meter/start-
business-bad-econom...](http://downtobusiness.com/bs-meter/start-business-bad-
economy/)

------
syntostic
pg: i agree once again.

the exogenous nature of technological progress has always been independent of
GDP growth. When the economy grows and consumption is booming, tech firms and
start-up founders benefit yes, but then it's like waiting for a sunny day to
go for a walk.

You could go for a walk any day and get the same benefits: exercise and sight-
seeing. In fact, too much sun might hurt you but you could always learn to get
creative against wind/rain (coat and umbrella).

I guess what I'm saying here in case you're lost is that a recession is bad
weather than need not distract tech start-ups from flexing their muscles. If
you could make it in bad weather, chances are, you could enjoy more success in
the sunny weather!

I don't want to say I agree that one has to launch a start-up during
recessions only. Obviously, the most ideal time to start one is to know you
can make decent money and a product that solves an important problem, be it in
a good or bad economy, because, statistically, recessions are shorter and
milder than before and expansions longer.

In the end, it is not a question of when, even. It remains a question of how.

------
im
Exactly one of the following is true:

(1) The probability of success is equal whether you start a startup in a good
or a bad economy.

(2) The probability of success is greater if you start a startup in a good
economy.

(3) The probability of success is greater if you start a startup in a bad
economy.

This latest essay is a bit ambiguous as to whether it's defending (1), (3), or
(2)-but-not-by-much. Which is it?

------
pengo
I think this is spot-on Mr G. I wrote a similar blog recently, although
targeted more broadly than just IT:
[http://www.aliveworld.com/members/pengo01/blog/archive/2008/...](http://www.aliveworld.com/members/pengo01/blog/archive/2008/10/21/why-
you-should-ignore-the-gloom-and-live-your-dream.aspx)

------
sfojames
Very timely. And it's great to read a "glass half full" approach with some
keen insight and advice.

We're certainly planning on your main thrust to be true with our new platform.
To that point - here's our latest blog post: <http://tinyurl.com/6blrvl>

Potential investors welcome!

------
balpreetspankaj
I agree. Startups that start now and are able to come out strong after the
recession would have proved their mettle and hence will be successful. Also,
this is the right time to form a strong team, coz most of the good hackers are
looking for something interesting to work on (less competition).

------
gscott
My suggestion is to be sure to advertise and push your project especially hard
when your competitors are dropping like flies. If you mearly hang on you will
come out the other end with a whole new slate of competitors that will be
funded so you need to be in a strong position to take them on.

------
jmdesp
One things that helps too is that in recession time large companies have no
available resource to stomp you out of existence. They're fighting to survive,
cutting jobs and getting completely disorganized, and no one realizes there's
a little guy out there who's stealing markets and clients.

------
jkaljundi
These times are great and many of us are loving the recession. For some ideas
how to startups should take this positively, see
[http://kaljundi.com/2008/10/28/10-reasons-startups-love-
rece...](http://kaljundi.com/2008/10/28/10-reasons-startups-love-recession/)

------
ageremew
Very good article. I was wondering if this is actually a good time to start
some sort of business or not and I stumbled on this article by accident. It is
good to be optimistic and on the positive side of what is in the news than
being discouraged. I command you for your good advise.

------
softomic
In a bad economy, companies are busy trimming expenses and cutting staff.
Finding a job is like finding a needle in a haystack. Why not start a start-
up? If you are rolling down a mountain in a car that has no brakes, wouldn't
you prefer to be the one behind the wheel? I would.

------
musa
The blog seems to depict a case in hand I have with my project. Paul Graham
should see what I am working on these days. Only thing is, as much as I need a
VC partnership, I am slowly clearing free of having one due to the skill and
the little financial support I already have.

------
sdattatri
Exactly my sentiments. Well said. Maybe you will like this video I made to
express my sentiments. [http://sanjaydattatri.blogspot.com/2008/10/its-not-
all-doom-...](http://sanjaydattatri.blogspot.com/2008/10/its-not-all-doom-and-
gloom-out-there.html)

------
sramana
I am of the same opinion. You may want to check out my new book, Entrepreneur
Journeys (Volume One): [http://www.sramanamitra.com/2008/09/09/entrepreneur-
journeys...](http://www.sramanamitra.com/2008/09/09/entrepreneur-journeys-now-
on-amazon/)

Sramana

------
tac-tics
> The economic situation is apparently so grim that some experts fear we may
> be in for a stretch as bad as the mid seventies.

Eh? Every expert I've heard lately is fearful we're headed towards a repeat of
the great depression. The one during the 1930s... not the 1970s.

------
greendestiny
I'm not sure I follow that bad times being a good time to invest means that
its a good time to start a company. Investors want a low price, but for
founders I would have thought the amount of effort (price paid) is fairly much
independent of the economy.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Opportunity costs are lower.

If the economy were good, the opportunity cost of building a startup would be
a high paying job as a quant.

Since it's bad, all I'm missing out on is a shot at postdoc #2 or a faculty
position.

------
YuriNiyazov
Wow, way to call me out just as I am preparing for the GREs and grad school
applications. In my defense, I've previously wanted to go to grad school also,
and even then, because I wanted to meet more people that would be potentially
good cofounders.

~~~
nostrademons
The cofounder issue is also why I'm not starting another company (yet). I
thought about going to grad school, but now am looking more towards getting a
job at one of the big tech companies in the Valley. That at least will get me
into the right geographic area, and with any luck I'll find some smart
coworkers or friends there.

------
nonte
Exactly, I also feel so and have written a blog on it
[http://barakbangla.com/index.php/Is-it-good-time-for-
entrepr...](http://barakbangla.com/index.php/Is-it-good-time-for-
entrepreneurs-to-venture-out.html)

------
bmelina
Starting up a tech company in lean times is certaintly different from any
other business whose products are tangible. The startup and operational costs
are much lower and surely, making wise choices the startup can outperform
competitors.

------
den
"The cheaper your company is to operate, the harder it is to kill."

That's one of the most bad ass business quotes I've heard in 2008. Nice PG!

(btw, I started a new company this year and would add that it's much easier to
hire GREAT people in these types of markets.)

------
dudumimran
In my eyes an important factor is the psychological one where as an
entrepreneur the ideas you have and the way you shape them tend to be more
realistic in bad times then in hype times. I guess it is something of the
survival nature.

Dudu

------
liubinskas
I wrote my 2 cents before seeing PG's $2

<http://www.pollenizer.com/?p=25>

And as Chris Hitchen from Getprice.com.au said the other day;

"A recession? Is that when a user comes back to your site again and again?"

------
kinet
Good article with few wisdoms.

It is all about mind over matter.... good or bad.... A positive minds looks at
problems as opportunities and other mind vice versa...

As you mentioned the success or failure depends on founders rather than
outside....

------
marktend
Thank God, finally some reason in the room. Run lean + create value + Targeted
marketing = Success = MarkTend.com

We were ahead of the curve on this one.

Michael Kassing MarkTend.com <http://marktend.com>

------
cmshop
If I would develop something that could help people with their education, it
should probably be recession-proof. Also, while US may suffer recession, some
other countries probably still enjoy economic growth.

------
kylexlau
Chinese translation:
[http://www.ruanyifeng.com/blog/2008/12/why_to_start_a_startu...](http://www.ruanyifeng.com/blog/2008/12/why_to_start_a_startup_in_a_bad_economy.html)

------
eshoemaker12
Great post Paul. There will always be room for good ideas that actually solve
problems. If you position the start-up now, it will be ready to reap even
greater rewards as the economy recovers.

------
wjohn928
I completely agree. I cant wait to outwork everyone in this market. I have a
feeling that this is the time when the brave, bold and smart rise to the top
and that is fully what I intend to do.

------
shinvee
Thanks PG. I've have the same idea about this economy problem and startup.
This article gives me to lots of passion! I'll send this link to all of my co-
workers.

p.s. Can I translate this article to korean?

------
Ambix
Thank you, Paul! Russian translation here:

[http://www.web30.ru/2008/12/04/zachem-zapuskat-startap-v-
kri...](http://www.web30.ru/2008/12/04/zachem-zapuskat-startap-v-krizis/)

------
RomanZolotarev
Russian translation [http://spring.jumpidea.com/2008/10/paul-graham-
badeconomy.ht...](http://spring.jumpidea.com/2008/10/paul-graham-
badeconomy.html)

------
inspiresuccess
Very, very, interesting! Is it only about making money though? Sure that is
essential, but what about the journey we take along the way? That is where the
wealth lies.

------
newaccountname
There is about to be a whole raft of federal packages for small plumbing
companies; that is the real reason to get started. Apparently you don't even
need a license.

------
Cupofstartup
Good enough article, especially for "one step before" entrepreneurs.

Fabian <http://cupofstartup.blogspot.com/>

------
billswift
This is off topic, but this seems to be something PG would be interested in. I
would like to see his take on the idea.

www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/fund-ubertool.html

------
lvs004
excellent points!

One thing I would like to add: In India, during booming times one problem
startups face is finding good people at affordable rates. The demand supply
equation is so bad that someone with 2 years experience in any sort of hacking
will land a job that pays x+n where x is the current pay and n substantial
percentage of it. Now in tougher times people would be willing to join and
also stick around.

------
marsdenis
pg - once again - you're right on - i might add though that passion is also an
ingredient that founders need to survive a nuclear winter - if you don't love
what you do or love what you are building you wont survive the best of times
and you're doomed at the worst of times as every passing day will test your
will power to stick with it and make it happen whether its sunny outside or
raining fire.

------
akshay
I did quit my day job and decide to pursue my long-time goal of building a
startup vs. getting a grad degree. Great article.

------
alecco
Very refreshing and rational. Thanks PG!

------
obelix
As someone who quit my job 4 months ago to co-found my first startup (not
funded yet), this essay is chicken soup.

Thanks PG.

------
azathoth
Are many of the startups by yc the viaweb sort? Free lisp on free unix with no
relational database?

------
wanderer08
These are the best of times.. these are the worst of times..

For sure, these are not average times.. :)

Thanks Pg, keeps our spirit going!

------
anand_amarsh
of many examples, Sony (created after WW II in a bombed building) reminds me
of how great innovators are not affected by transient disasters. I guess we
should feel lucky that we only face economic crisis, and not the terrible
destruction the world has faced before :)

------
ivanceras
Well now, we are in a Bad economy for the first time in History in the whole
world.

------
NakedCelt
As bad as the mid '70s? The commentators I'm reading are talking about the
'30s.

------
hackware
heh, as a self educated hacker from mississippi, with over 12 startups under
my belt, you talk a lot of sense...

(8 dismal failures, twice wealthy, once almost made the rainbow)...

keep it up...

you're almost my hero... :-)

(really hard to beat out my father :-)

------
web20FDcomp
Great Article...

Working on a site web2.0fuckedcompany.com if you want to help....

~~~
dabrain
I wonna help

------
vladimir
Russian translation of this essay is <a
href="<http://k-vladimir.blogspot.com/2008/11/blog-post.html>">here</a>.

------
varun
Paul, a timely and encouraging article, thanks.

\- Varun www.homecamera.com

------
nikhilmb
nice artcile that gives inspiration to people like us to venture into startups
at these difficult times! really an insightful one!

------
thinkingjoe
could it also be that the cloud gang saw this coming? or just as you (pg) say
- tech, stocks are not strongly interdependent

------
s3graham
What does

"Technology trains leave the station at regular intervals"

mean?

------
vivek
the thoughts are very much in synch with what my mind revolves for the past
few weeks. Nice indeed.

------
turknag
Thats exactly what i have done

www.abhayatech.com

------
Jyoti
Thanks for a very good post.

------
myteev
looking for investors..... interested?

myteev.blogspot.com

------
fishonmars
The poverty part about a startup is true. To save money I bought a mountain
bike and soon afterwards sprained my ankle so I couldn't ride my bike (to save
on gas money) and then I caught the flu and I've been down for the count for 2
weeks recovering and didn't have the strength to pedal. Little things like
comcast bills and tmobile bills add up. Starbucks adds up but that's the only
place next to Cafe Borrone that I brainstorm and relax enough to write code
and design web pages and mess around with ColdFusion8. None of my great ideas
came to me in my apartment. They all happened while sitting in a cafe
relaxing. My neighbors at my apartment complex are not american and not
programmers but they do seem to have a keen interest in bad loud music and
burning out with their cars in the parking lot. Founders At Work is a good
book and a good read but another book I'd like Livingston to write is about
failed startups. Also, a lot of the stories in the book are software projects
and not true startups. In a startup you have to embrace failure and change and
headaches and it's a demon of a roller coaster. So though it's a startup I
still have costs like car insurance, gasoline, food costs, 1,100 a month rent,
utilities for electricity. I have a programmer executive chair, a desk from
Scandinavian designs and a camping air mattress from REI and a sleeping bag
and blankets and great pillow from Bed Bath & Beyond. Shopping at Costco is
recommended rather than Safeway or Longs Drugs to save money. So starting a
startup doesn't take into account the 3,500 I shelled out for a Macbook Pro
(which I bought thinking I was going to become a teacher) and I do use a wind
up flashlight from REI for light but I'll switch over to candles soon. Cutting
costs is the name of the game. But finding dedicated programmers is the key to
victory. I don't recommend anyone start a startup by themselves because there
is so much you have to think about and get feedback from friends. I changed
the entire design of my site just a week ago and writing requirements is a
pain but a necessary pain. Also, milestones work. It's easier to tackle one
pebble at a time rather then a whole boulder which is just too overwhelming.
Daily progress and weekly progress is the only way it will work. Also, I have
recruited many of my friends to help out when the site launches in terms of
testing, and accounting, and customer service and they're all going to work
for free but none of my friends are coders. Everyone I used to know that wrote
code doesn't write code anymore. They either got carpal tunnel or just cut
coding cold turkey.

Having money is key. I'm funding this startup with my inheritance but if I
don't get funding or the site isn't making enough dough by Valentines day the
site will crash and burn and then I'll have to sell my car and I don't want to
do that. I sold my car for my first startup and that was the biggest mistake I
made in my entire life. Life is much more difficult without a car.

------
robak
What about having savings instead of "investor funding" ? If you have
developed a great product why in the world would you like to share your
company with VCs anyway ? Why you need somebody to invest in your company ? I
mean come on people, you can save $10k in vacation as a college student
waiting tables and have 100% pie for yourself. I don't understand the logic
here. Never did.

~~~
kikap
Not everything is yet cheap enough to run on 10-50k of savings. Take
semiconductors for example. Some software technologies are also quite
expensive to develop, not everybody is doing web apps, thanks God :-)

------
vptes1
you are absolutely right, my friend. i'm starting up right now, and am looking
forward to the challenge.

