
My Family’s Experiment in Extreme Schooling - lachyg
http://nytimes.com/2011/09/18/magazine/my-familys-experiment-in-extreme-schooling.html
======
ph0rque
As a Russian immigrant to the US, I went through something very similar, but
in reverse. A few thoughts:

* I am very glad I came from Russia (well, USSR at that time) to the accepting, everyone-is-a-winner US and not the other way around. It would have been _much_ harder for me the other way around, especially if I had to attend public school.

* I really appreciate the forging of one's sense of self that such an experience brings. I vividly remember going back and forth between viewing myself as an American and as a Russian during my teen years. I believe my identity eventually transcended either American or Russian; I view myself as an Earthian, a world citizen now, one who can become more Russian or more American depending on the circumstances.

~~~
olegious
Have 3 different experiences:

1\. We immigrated from Russia when I was 9- didn't speak a word of English
(didn't know what "who are you?" meant on the first day of class). Spent the
first year in an ESL class, within a year I was speaking English freely, all
my classmates were also recent immigrants from former Soviet republics so
there was very little culture shock (at least in school). But because the
class focused on English and little else, I lost the great math skills I had
when I came from the Russian system. Took me a few years to get completely
comfortable with my new language but by the 9th grade I was one of the top
students in all my classes (except math, that skill or rather the interest in
the subject never recovered).

2\. My cousin's son was born in the US. The parents wanted to make sure his
first language was Russian- they only spoke to him in Russian, he went to a
Russian day-care, watched only Russian cartoons, had only Russian friends.
Then for kindergarden (around the age of 4 or 5) he got sent to a normal
American school. The first month or so he experienced what the writer's kids
experienced- complete cultural shock, he spent the evenings at home crying
that he didn't want to go to school because he couldn't understand anything,
but little by little he adjusted and is now comfortable in his new
environment.

3\. My wife and I met in Moscow last year, she moved to the US six months ago.
She's in her early 20s, very smart (finished her university with straight As),
had a good job in Moscow and is used to always being the best at whatever she
tries. She's studying English full time, but is having trouble adjusting to an
environment where she is not independent and has to rely on me not only
financially but at least initially on simple things such as grocery shopping
or explaining to the women at the nail salon how she wanted her nails done.
She's picking up English quickly but the first few months she was afraid of
sounding dumb and refused to speak English with anyone outside of a classroom
environment. I won't even go into the cultural shock and how difficult the
transition has been for her from a popular, successful woman to one with no
job or friends in a new country (that's a topic for another post).

~~~
ph0rque
Yup, I and those around me experienced very similar things.

1\. I was also 9 when we arrived here, but we ended up in a rural area that
did not have ESL classes, and for the longest time, we were the only Russian-
speaking students in our school (long enough that I didn't feel the urge to
communicate with them once they arrived, on a regular basis). My math also
fell to an above-average level, but I never really cared for it beyond
thinking it was nifty.

2\. My brother (19 years my junior) experienced something very similar to your
nephew, but we took it in stride and he adjusted very quickly.

3\. My wife also came from Russia only 5 years ago, she experienced the same
feelings as your wife did.

4\. We also are experiencing a fourth experience: our oldest speaks Russian
fluently for her age. In order for her not to experience shock when she went
to kindergarten, we started speaking English with her for about half the day
about six months before she started kindergarten (and really, we intentionally
exposed her to English all along, but focused on Russian at first). Now that
she's in kindergarten, she understands almost everything, and can communicate
well enough that she doesn't need to attend ESL, although she still doesn't
know all the words in English that she does in Russian.

By the way, where are you located?

~~~
olegious
I'm in San Francisco.

------
lucasjung
I experienced something like this as a child, but it didn't seem very extreme
to me at all. I started younger than eight, so that probably helped.

My parents were living in Germany when I was born. My mother flew back to
California for my birth, but I never really lived there. I grew up in an
American household in Germany. My parents spoke just enough German to get by,
and my older sisters spoke German quite fluently because they attended German
public schools. However, English was the only language spoken at home. My
mother taught me to read English at home, to the point where I could read age-
appropriate children's books on my own by the time I was four, but she didn't
teach me to read or write German.

In Germany, what we call "Pre-school" is called "Kindergarten," and what we
call "Kindergarten" is called "Vor-schule," which literally translates as
"Pre-school." My parents never put me in Kindergarten, so my first day of
school was the first day of Vor-schule. They enrolled me at a German public
school. As you might expect, all instruction was in German. _Most_ , but not
all, of the teachers spoke fluent English, but none of the other children
spoke any English. The teachers would not speak English to me as part of
instruction, but would for other issues (e.g. going to the bathroom). I
remember it being difficult and bewildering at first, but I picked up the
German quickly and spoke it as well as I spoke English by the end of that
first year. In subsequent years, I remember acting as translator between my
parents and teachers.

I think that a big key to all of this is starting young, when the child is
still in the process of learning language anyway. I think that 2nd or 3rd
grade is probably about as far as you could push it without adding some
supplemental language tutoring.

------
ilamont
It was wonderful that it eventually worked out, but for some children such an
experience could be devastating.

One other thing that I wonder about this example is it includes three
Caucasian American kids in what I believe is a mostly Caucasian school. There
were also three of them, instead of just one, which I think made the
adjustment easier. It's comforting knowing a sibling is nearby -- my own kids
had this experience when attending a summer school in Asia in 2008 and 2009 --
it was very reassuring for the younger one, knowing his sister was in a
classroom upstairs.

Another situation I was wondering about: If African or Asian children were
enrolled in the Russian School, would they have been able to find their place
as quickly as the NYT correspondent's family?

------
gommm
I've experienced something similar as a child by doing an exchange with an
English family who had a kid my age when I was ten. I went 6 month in England
in that family and went to school with the kid and he then came to France for
6 months. The first few weeks were hard of course, I was alone in a family
where no one could really speak French and I could hardly speak English but I
quickly learned the language and at the end of the 6 months, it was harder for
me to speak French than English and I spoke both languages with a british
accent (which I've lost since then unfortunately)...

I enjoyed the experience so much that I did the same in Germany and in Spain
(I wanted to go on and do the same in Japan during high school but my parents
nixed that). Kids are really adaptable and even if it is a bit hard at the
beginning I truly believe that it's broadens the mind.

So, to answer some of the comments who mention it's child abuse, well from the
perspective of someone who was put into a foreign environment as a child I
think children are more resilient and more happy to learn and discover news
culture, languages and things than you imagine.

------
petercooper
In case you're wondering, the video is well worth watching in this case. Very
well produced and about 10 minutes long.

------
rgrieselhuber
Amazing experience. The administrator of the school, Bogin, sounds like a
jewel. The way he thinks reminds me of the things I hear about the way Larry
and Sergei approach problem solving.

------
lachyg
Read through the whole article, very much worth reading! It's interesting how
well this whole immersive education seems to work, but it sounds like the
school employs some techniques of teaching, reviewing and involving students
and teachers that mainstream schools should really look into.

Although I think the thought of video taping classes would not go down well in
the western world.

------
andrewcooke
christ. i moved to a foreign country when i was an adult. reading that article
brought tears to my eyes. it's fucking hard and i wouldn't do that to a child.
they are amazing for coping so well.

~~~
joelhaasnoot
As a 6 year old Dutch boy I was dumped in a British classroom. I survived am
lots of years later live to tell the tale. To be honest, international schools
are not always a great alternative: it's very much like living in two worlds.

~~~
andrewcooke
sure; i don't have any alternative to offer and i don't know much about
children. i just felt sorry for them...

(but anyway, don't you find that you end up living in a middle-world that is
not as comfortable as either? this seems to be common amongst ex-pat adults)

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windexh8er
Fantastic article and video. It made me reflect on the experiences I had with
education at that age look, well, mundane and archaic. While immersion schools
look to be a viable gap filler in today's educational system - there is, with
even more prevalence today, the complex of "everyone's a winner". I'm looking
forward to having kids and more importantly being tasked with trying to guide
them through the fine line of winners, losers, diversity in culture and
finding those "extreme schooling" that make sense.

Again, great piece!

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mkr-hn
I don't see anything extreme, but there's probably something I'm not picking
up. It's articles like this that make me think about subscribing to the NYT.

------
brackin
Wasn't this posted the other day?

~~~
ColinWright
Several points, no discussion. I wasn't going to say anything, but since you
ask ...

Yesterday: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3002586>

~~~
lachyg
Yes, it got to 6 when I posted this, and I decided to give it one more chance,
as I honestly think it deserves a front page chance. My apologies for
resubmitting.

~~~
ColinWright
<shrug>

HN is now so overloaded with so much that's not truly of "deep interest" that
contentful items fall quickly off the "newest" page and don't get a chance. I
think that some items genuinely do deserve a second chance.

My views have been well-documented elsewhere, and having been hammered karma-
wise before now, I won't clutter HN with them again.

~~~
brackin
Yes it's an interesting piece which deserves to be on the homepage.

------
blackdivine
Such a nice read, thanks for sharing

------
Vivtek
_That’s the one problem with living abroad. You end up getting those weird
feelings like, Oh, I can’t leave; I can’t stay._

Amen.

------
ahoyhere
Anyone know of institutions/teachers/administrators who are doing this kind of
style in the US? It's completely intriguing.

~~~
pheaduch
Every school in America does this, but in English of course. I came to Canada
at the age of four and enrolled in kindergarden without knowing a word of
English. I don't remember much but I know I was able to assimilate fairly well
and able to pass without being held back. At that age, the mind is an amazing
thing and children just soak everything up.

~~~
biot
Did you read the article? It's as much, if not more, about the style of
teaching than it is about the fact that it's a foreign language to them.

------
jfricker
Sounds so much like child abuse I couldn't get very far.

~~~
warmfuzzykitten
It's really too bad you didn't. You might have learned something. The parents,
whose "inclination as parents had been to intervene to protect our children"
Learned that "maybe it was better that they had to win these battles by
themselves". When the family left Russia, "Danya, now nearly 14, was
ambivalent about leaving, drawn toward being a teenager in New York City. But
Arden and Emmett would have gladly stayed." There was no abuse, but it was
hard work for the kids, and maybe that's the point.

"Life at New Humanitarian was full of academic Olympiads, poetry-reciting
contests and quiz bowls. The school stressed oral exams, even in math, where
children had to solve an equation at the blackboard and explain methodology.
Children were graded and ranked, with results posted. We were not accustomed
to this: in Brooklyn, the school instilled an everyone’s-a-winner ethos. At
New Humanitarian, Danya says, “they send an entirely different message to the
kids: ‘Learning is hard, but you have to do it. You have to get good grades.’
”

~~~
SomeCallMeTim
Even though I consider US public schools borderline child abuse for holding
kids back to keep up with the slowest kids, and for excessive to meaningless
praise, I don't think reading the rest of the article and discovering that the
kids did in fact overcome the challenges will make me feel it's EVER OK to
dump a kid into a situation like that.

Kids are resilient. If it doesn't kill them, it can make them stronger. That
doesn't mean that I believe it's OK to torture them in order to make them
stronger. The ends don't justify the means.

It frankly ISN'T the competitiveness that troubles me. Not in the slightest.
It's dropping the kids into a school where they can't understand ANYTHING, nor
can they be understood, that strikes me as cruel and unusual. It's one thing
to do that to someone who WANTS it. Kids have very little control over their
lives, though, and forcing that on a kid (except when there is really no
choice) is just wrong.

Especially since the PREMISE is wrong: Kids simply don't learn foreign
languages faster and easier than adults. They learn them at a deeper level
(different brain structures), so that they can eventually learn to speak a
language as a native, but it takes as long or longer than an adult learning
the same language for them to become proficient.

~~~
SomeCallMeTim
Wow, downvotes with no response? In what way was this message not adding to
the conversation?

Not that I didn't expect it, since so many HN readers seem to disagree.

------
scythe
I think this was a patently awful idea, and I think that a close reading of
the article supports this.

Consider the situation: A person with some underlying psychiatric disorder
decides to steal a car. They are arrested, trialled, and ordered to receive
counseling at a mental health institution. As a result of the counseling, they
are able to cope with their disability and become a more successful member of
society.

Does this mean that stealing a car is a good idea? _No!_

The kids were not successful because they were forced to learn Russian. They
were successful because they entered an innovative and expensive (USD 10000!)
private school which made special exceptions and put in extra effort to bring
the kids up to speed. This sort of extra effort is not the sort of treatment
one should come to expect and rely on. It is what humans do in order to take
care of others who have made grave errors; it is an outgrowth of compassion
for the foolish. The bit about a teacher running a class in English should
really drive this point home.

I am happy to hear that the kids were able to succeed. However, the author is
a chode.

