
Our experience with Stripe Atlas (2017) - niko001
https://hackernoon.com/our-experience-with-stripe-atlas-fcccafe6fff8
======
agopaul
As a non-US citizen, opening a company in the US is not the hard part. The
hard part is figuring out taxes and legal "configuration" in your own country,
where you live. I'm not an expert, but I hear from accountants that you have
to figure the thing out properly and you end up having an accountant for your
company abroad and one for yourself. It might end up being too much expensive
if it's for a bootstrapped startup with little revenue.

Happy to hear from people in EU that made this work and what are the total
costs (especially tax-wise in your own country).

~~~
jlangenauer
Be aware that incorporating in another jurisdiction doesn't mean your
operations aren't taxable according to the local laws of where you are.

For example, if a company is incorporated in the US, but all it's
employees/owners are physically located in Germany, then under German law, the
"place of ordinary business" is Germany, and the company gets taxed as though
it's a German company.

I believe the same sort of principal applies in most jurisdictions.

~~~
fasteo
Same for Spain.

You need a permanent office - that is, employees that generate revenue for the
company in the US - for the Spanish government to consider whether you can pay
taxes in the US or in Spain.

Note that this varies from country to country depending on the double taxation
agreements between countries [1]

[1]
[http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEAT.internet/en_gb/Inicio/L...](http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEAT.internet/en_gb/Inicio/La_Agencia_Tributaria/Normativa/Fiscalidad_Internacional/Convenios_de_doble_imposicion_firmados_por_Espana/Convenios_de_doble_imposicion_firmados_por_Espana.shtml)

------
ohitsdom
My biggest hesitation with Atlas is the C corp part. I don't want funding, I
want to start small and bootstrap. For this, LLCs seem best so you don't get
taxed twice.

My most optimistic first year in revenue would be $30-60k, still well in side
business territory. Am I missing something, or is Atlas not for me?

~~~
sjroot
I am replying to this because it is a question I have as well. Stripe
employees - I know the Atlas page discusses the reasoning behind a C corp a
bit, but I think it would be beneficial to elaborate on why it is preferable
over an LLC. It’s also worth noting that the Atlas website mentions support
for LLCs and other business types later down the line. Any timeline on this?

As I imagine the OP of this comment is, I am a US citizen who was primarily
interested in Atlas because it seems like the most painless solution.

~~~
patio11
I work on Stripe Atlas. Prior to that, I ran a few software businesses, all as
LLCs.

A rule I had in my business was “Don’t talk about timelines until you’re ready
to ship, because they only slip, and then people are sad.” I broke the rule
several times, and regretted it every time. Stripe has the same rule, but is
disciplined about keeping it.

I have a lot of thoughts on the C corporation vs LLC tradeoffs and while I’d
love to put them in an HN comment my top task this week is putting them in a
more permanent location.

------
andreygrehov
What would be really cool is if Stripe Atlas allowed its customers to form an
LLC first and then provided a seamless framework to get LLC converted to
C-Corp. I’m looking to bootstrap a single founder business and I can’t find
good reasons to go with a corporation. I could be wrong though.

~~~
middle1
if you are not the US citizen you simply can't register a US based LLC.

~~~
wklauss
Neither US citizenship nor residency are requirements for forming a Delaware
LLC or Delaware corporation. You can start a business in Delaware from
anywhere in the world. I think this is what Stripe Atlas does. The only
requirement is registered agent has to be based in Delaware and licensed to do
so.

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ilolu
How much does it cost (everything included) per year approximately to run a
company with zero or very close to zero revenues in US ?. I am talking about
cost including Lawyer charges, Accountant charges, Tax, agent charges etc.

~~~
patio11
Approximately $1,000, with some variation due to individual choices and
variation, on the US side of things. I can’t speculate as to what it costs on
your side of things.

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nodesocket
The biggest complaint I would have is using Silicon Valley Bank. I was a
customer for over two years and their web interface is complete garbage and
they charged an account service fee each and every month.

I switched over to Capital One Spark Business Checking and highly recommend
them instead.

~~~
winslow
I had pinged them about the SV Bank account especially with their high fees
compared to my Credit Union and they mentioned that you can immediately close
the SV Bank account as use your bank or credit union. [1]

[1]
[https://twitter.com/atlas/status/901220134328643584](https://twitter.com/atlas/status/901220134328643584)

------
igammarays
Anyone have experience with Stripe Atlas _after_ starting a foreign entity? I
have a Canadian Corporation which I'd like to make a wholly-owned subsidiary
of that Delaware C corp (or perhaps the other way around).

~~~
3pt14159
I have some experience as a C-level of a funded Canadian Corp with a American
related company that went on to raise from Andreesen, but this experience a
bit dated (2012) and I'm not a lawyer / accountant so DYODD, this is all from
faulty memory. But I still think its helpful.

Basically don't make a subsidiary, make two corps and sell the IP from the
Canadian corp to the American one then license it back with a contract between
the two corps. Then you set the same shareholders for both corps. As long as
you are paying licensing costs for the IP to the American corp from the
operating company within reasonable rates everyone is happy. Management fees /
fees associated with the IP corp (costs related to the board, raising capital,
non-managerial CEO work) get paid from the IP corp, and the rest gets paid
from the operating company in Canada.

But note that as soon as you create an American corp all of your tax planning
and accounting fees will essentially 10x and if you don't do things carefully
you'll miss out on your one time capital gains exemption or other CCPC
goodies, like bulk asset sale dividend tax reductions. Get a tax attorney and
game it out ahead of time.

~~~
motohagiography
This provides the information I need to ask quality questions to lawyers and
accountants, thank you.

Regarding why to do it, is there a reason you can't just stand up the DE C and
that IP agreement as part of the funding round instead of having it in place
before?

~~~
3pt14159
How fast do you want a term sheet signed? You can of course say "we're not
interested in becoming a DE C" and you'll lose 50% of your candidates and you
can of course say "we've already set up the DE C" and you'll lose none of
them. But if you say "we'll set up a DE C when we need to" you signal that you
aren't confident that you'll get the round signed or that DE C is something
you'll do begrudgingly, thus advantaging firms that can invest in Canada, so
it leaves everyone scratching their heads.

Personally, my current company is staying 100% Canadian. The headaches dealing
with the American tax system aren't worth it. If the revenue is there the
capital isn't far behind, and I rather spend time optimizing the revenue of
the company than getting slowed down with lawyers and tax attorneys plus I
trust Canada's judicial system more than I do America's. Not by a lot, but
still.

All this doesn't really matter if you're pre-product market fit or pre-
monetization though. In that case it's almost always better to just set up the
DE C because you have less leverage / allure.

------
alicewales
I've noticed a lot of people setting up UK limited companies for similar
reasons - you can do it online for a few pounds and there seem to be very few
checks done on your identity or business plan when you do so.

~~~
briandear
The only problem with a UK company for a non-UK person is it has been my
experience that it’s really hard to open a proper UK bank account without UK
residency. Perhaps others have had better luck, but for me, that was a
significant pain point.

~~~
AKifer
I'm interested also to know how you did it.

------
auganov
Wondering if Atlas gets a lot of money launderers. Incorporating has always
been super easy, but most agents wouldn't open a bank account for you.
Especially at this price point.

~~~
exolymph
They do KYC. All of this is backed by Silicon Valley Bank, which definitely
has a robust compliance department.

------
pjc50
"You also realize that you don’t really need public financial help if you
don’t get robbed to begin with. To create a SPRL/BVBA in Belgium, the capital
must be fully subscribed at the time the company is incorporated, to the
amount of €18,550 (of which €6,200 must actually be paid up in the account of
the SPRL/BVBA). Also, the articles of association must be written before a
notary. You need to be physically present in the office of a random guy you
never met and will never meet again to make sure that your company can be
incorporated."

Indeed. This is one of those things that is a massive, nonobvious competitive
advantage for Anglosphere countries - most have an incorporation system that
works for really tiny businesses, and there are very few requirements for
notaries or similar. There really isn't a good reason for company registration
to have non trivial costs.

Companies House will do it for £12. There are third parties who will do the
registration through their API for even less, somehow. And the UK is also
quite good at legal recognition for unincorporated members' associations
(useful if you want a local nonprofit org).

~~~
3pt14159
Eh, I mostly agree, but I think there is a limit. It used to be easier here in
Ontario, but then people started lighting up multiple numbered companies to
the point where the government couldn't easily understand what was going on so
they tightened the rules a bit. The cost is still pretty low, but it isn't as
easy as it used to be.

------
mmckelvy
Setting up a business entity is actually not that difficult. You can do it
yourself.

In California for instance, you can set up an LLC in about 5 minutes for $70.
It requires filing out one form with the name of your business and the owners
and mailing it in (takes a few weeks to process). In many other states you can
do this online.

Once you have your Articles of Organization, you can take them to any bank and
open a bank account with a credit card in about 30 minutes.

------
matchagaucho
I wonder how these people are getting access to Atlas?

Every time I follow links to Atlas, the experience always ends with the
"Request to join" signup form.

~~~
patio11
If you’d like, you or anyone else on HN can send me an email and I’ll send you
an invitation.

That form is the primary way most people get access; we invite almost everyone
whose business we could accept within 48 hours of hitting submit on it. (We do
a very coarse filter on “Is this business obviously unsupportable for legal or
policy reasons? No? OK, invite them to send us a full application.”)

------
bitrazor123
Mine had been much better. I expected some glitches, and encountered some. So
met expectations :)

~~~
quantized1
That depends on case by case. You might have been lucky

------
soneca
My particular pain point is how to have a Stripe account living in an
unsupported country (Brazil).

Is Stripe Atlas the best solution?

I am starting two very modest side business intending to sell to international
customers (mostly US+Canada initially). One SaaS and one content membership.

Any ideas?

~~~
patio11
While we'd be happy to have you in Stripe Atlas, we'd also be happy to have
you in the live preview for Stripe in Brazil. You can sign up here:
[https://stripe.com/global#br](https://stripe.com/global#br)

Send me an email after doing so (my email address is my HN handle at
stripe.com) and I'll talk to the team running it to make sure you get access
expeditiously. (Offer open to anyone on HN.)

~~~
jorangreef
Any plans to open Stripe in South Africa?

Would be great to have Stripe in at least one country on the continent!

~~~
patio11
We're available throughout Africa through Atlas, and are happily serving
customers in many African countries, including South Africa. (The community in
Cape Town is huge!)

We want to be able to support entrepreneurs and businesses substantially
everywhere. We don't talk about concrete timelines externally until we have
something ready to show, because that is pure downside for our users if e.g.
priorities change, a country launch gets delayed due to issues beyond our
control, etc.

When we have plans for infrastructure that we can roll out in a fashion which
is predictable enough to be viable to build a business on top of, you'll hear
about it in all the usual places. Until then,
[https://stripe.com/global#za](https://stripe.com/global#za) and Atlas are
your best options.

~~~
jorangreef
Thanks Patrick, we are in Cape Town. It will be great when Stripe has an
office here.

------
saosebastiao
Anybody know of any other ways to get aws credits? I'm not willing to give up
the benefits of an LLC, and I can deal with setting up my own bank account.
But the aws credits and initial accounting help would be really nice.

------
edpichler
A short question for Atlas users: If I live abroad, and I want to contract
someone abroad too, not USA Citizen, is his/her salary deductible from company
income taxes (as if I contracted someone in USA)?

~~~
patio11
US companies can deduct expenses necessary and reasonable for the business
from their income taxes and employee salaries are business expenses.

You will probably want advice from an accountant local to your foreign
employee as to how to comply with local laws to employ them, including making
the relevant tax payments.

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ph0rque
I've been contemplating bringing my DE C corp into the Stripe Atlas umbrella.
Is it possible to do so and BYOBA (bring your own bank account)?

~~~
patio11
We do not support this at present, but are aware that many people want to do
it. Would you mind telling me what you’re hoping to get out of doing that, so
that I can take that to the team?

~~~
ph0rque
Like I replied to a sibling comment, I simply want to save time and money
doing so (not having to pay a monthly fee for using a bank would go a long way
towards the latter). It does seem like I would be able to save time using
Atlas to handle ongoing obligations to run my company, which is why I am
interested.

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mrfusion
I feel like I’ve heard of tax nightmares for people incorporating in deleware.
Can anyone comment on that?

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chasedehan
The article mentions $15k in AWS credits, but Atlas currently only shows $5k
in credits.

~~~
patio11
One of the joys about dealing with partners is that occasionally offers change
over time as partners’ strategies change, their interest in particular
programs of theirs changes, etc. We can offer new Stripe Atlas customers (as
of April 2018) up to $5k in AWS credits at present.

