
Runners’ brains may be more connected, research shows - manojr
http://sciencebulletin.org/archives/8177.html
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bluenose69
Actually, the article is mainly about running. Music is mentioned just once,
and a bit tangentially.

PS. the photo in the article shows the waterfront of Halifax, Nova Scotia,
with Georges Island to the left. The island is the site of Fort Charlotte.
During the seven years war, the English imprisoned 2000 French sailors there,
which is hard to imagine, given the size of the island (all of which is
visible in the photo).

~~~
braythwayt
Yes, please don’t editorialize titles. Some titles are awkward and need
editing. But fixing what the title is trying to say is not the same thing as
changing the title to say what you want it to say.

Which does not mean that your perspective is not important. So instead of
editorializing the title, either leave it be or fix it to say what the source
intended, then kick of the discussion with your own interpretation as a
comment.

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zw123456
I have been a runner for just about my whole life (ran track in HS) is started
listening to music when the small mp3 players first came out and I noticed
that it seemed to interfere with my "runners high" a little bit. I know this
is tied to beta endorphins but I also think there is a Zen like aspect. So I
stopped using the player and instead just let my mind run free too. My theory
is that running can also unlock a type of meditative experience in the brain.
I notice how much more clearly I can think after. It could be an evolutionary
anachronism in that when the hunter man begins to run that the brain enters a
state of heightened acuity in preparation for the kill. Who knows.

~~~
timbowhite
> I notice how much more clearly I can think after.

If the run is more strenuous, do you still see the same effect?

For me, a 3 miler at a relaxed pace definitely helps me be more focused
afterwards.

But if I'm going full tilt up and down hills, or running longer distances, I
find myself mentally exhausted afterwards. My theory is that this is due to my
mind constantly battling itself on these kind of runs ("THIS HURTS PLEASE STOP
NOW" vs. "PUSH PUSH PUSH").

EDIT: I should say both types of runs are relaxing afterwards.

~~~
zw123456
Good point, if I push myself too far then I end up focusing too much on the
push. But on the other hand if I don't push at least part of the time, the end
feeling is not as rewarding.

~~~
timbowhite
Sure. The other thing I've noticed is that I tend to be more aggressive during
strenuous runs. For instance, if a car doesn't yield to me at a crosswalk I'll
probably yell out something, whereas I normally would ignore it.

Might be due to both the mental anguish and the "heightened acuity in
preparation for the kill" you mentioned :)

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chiefalchemist
Do runners create brains? Or do brains create runners? The study is
interesting but, as the article mentions, more needs to be learned.

That aside, it's likely a bit of both. In the case of the latter (I.e., brain
creates runner) what happens when the person fails to realize their potential
(?)? That is, you have a runner brain but are 20 lbs overweight and sit on
your ass all day. Does that, can that, drive mental illness e.g., depression)?

Regardless, lack of blood flow can't be a positive.

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agumonkey
I found that learning music unlocked pattern comprehensions that were very
mathematical. Multiple layers of abstraction (rhythm or note points,
derivatives of these two, overlay, non linear transformations, and the
equivalent momentum phenomenons).

Running is something that trigger creative mind activity for me. And a form of
flow. I wouldn't be surprised if other physical activity would do the same:
climbing, even body building when done in a meditative manner (maybe?).

~~~
criddell
How old were you when you learned music?

I've been trying to learn to play guitar on and off for 25 years now. It's a
huge struggle for me. For a while I'll practice daily, make very little
progress, get frustrated and bored, then quit. A year later I start over and
no progress is ever made. I've had different teachers and different
instruments (I love the gear part of it) and I know what's really needed is
grit.

I do get the feeling though that my 46 year old brain is a little calcified
and doesn't want to learn something entirely new. That's part of the reason I
think I really need to work on it.

My kids take music lessons and after the first week, they accomplished more
than I had in years.

~~~
oddlyaromatic
I've taught guitar on and off over the years, including to retirees- I would
say you are never to old too learn. Please forgive how reductive this comment
will be, it may not help at all. I do think you have to have this coincidence
inside you where you can learn to love practicing, and not knowing things. The
trickier or more stupid something is, the more you have to love unpacking that
problem, and allow yourself to dive deep into what it is made up of. That
attitude was what finally got me to stick with learning programming after
years as a musician. Figure out that every obstacle is a gift you can learn
from. The main thing I have found that helped me in learning is that you are
not teaching your _hands_ specific _positions_ , you are teaching your fingers
specific paths between locations. Focus on the paths.

~~~
agumonkey
It's partly how I learned music. It was a deep curiosity about what and why.
You just like to try to emulate that sound, try all variations.

The plot twist was that it turned into "how to learn". Because you can try
things blind forever and never make progress. There's a million way to be
wrong in music. It teaches you patience and sensitivity. All the beautiful
rhythms are very small details invisible to the newcomer, you have to go slow
in order not to miss them.

The "between" trick is important. I told above about inertia and thinking
about moving as constantly flowing and not as spaced points.

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Houshalter
There was an interesting study that looked at Facebook likes and personality
types of a large number of people. They found the pages/interests that were
the most heavily correlated with each of the major personality dimensions.
It's really interesting and you can see the whole chart twoard the bottom of
this article: [http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/this-algorithm-knows-
you-...](http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/this-algorithm-knows-you-better-
than-your-facebook-friends-do/)

Emotional stability was highly correlated with running, sports, and general
outdoor activities (and also rap music, interestingly.) Is it because spending
time outside makes people more emotionally stable? Or do emotionally stable
people just enjoy outdoor activities more?

~~~
pizza
I gotta say I laughed out loud when I saw the mention of _The Velvet
Underground_. It also reminded me of this aside Lou Reed spoke before
performing a song;

> _This is a song about the sorrows of the contemporary world, of which I know
> we all know so well. At least, I read about it all the time. It 's like, one
> day – this is when I was in college, right? – and I woke up, 6:30 in the
> morning because I get up early, and I put on the radio, and they said,
> y'know, 'So-and-so truck driver today ran over his baby son's head and it
> burst like a watermelon.' And then they said, 'It's 22 degrees out.' So I
> figured, on all levels, there was no reason ever to go out again. I stayed
> indoors for about eight months. Also passed with honors in Kierkegaard –
> that's 'cause I understand, y'know, the existential leap. Anyone who lies in
> bed at 6:30 in the morning listening to that has to. Anyway, after that
> communism was the only answer for me, I felt. And if you can't be a
> communist and make money, then you have to be a rock & roll singer. At least
> in Hoboken ... So anyway, this is a song called 'I Can't Stand it
> Anymore.'"_

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tsumnia
This title is a little click-baity, but I think one of the nice takeaways from
the article was the connectivity in the frontal cortex.

I've been researching how to improve CS education this past semester, and its
taken me down a long road of cog. psych. Much of this information is "true",
but shouldn't be read as "Runners and musicians are 'smarter'". Firstly,
what's it mean to be 'smart'?

As expertise grows, that knowledge needs to be stored somewhere. In my
studies, this led to Cambridge's Handbook Of Expertise [1], in which there is
a chapter focusing on perceptual-motor expertise. In violinists, the neural
plasticity of the cerebellum expanded similarly to the cerebellum's in chess
players. As my link and this article sort of point out, mental and physical
expertise cause the brain to expand.

There is some discussion about the brain being an "arena" for limited neural
tissue; however, I am by no means an expert of the brain.

My interpretation of this information is that the same practices done in
runners/musicians can be applied to other mental practices - ala CS. You get
better at running by running; you get better at playing a violin by practicing
your scales; what are the elements of CS that can be reduced to these solitary
practices as a means to get better at them?

[1]
[https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9780511816796](https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9780511816796)

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alexandros
Do we know if that is because Runners and Musicians tend to be generally
better educated and raised, both those things being markers of middle- and
upper- class membership?

~~~
danaliv
They controlled for this. "Participants were roughly the same age — 18 to 25 —
with comparable body mass index and educational levels."

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
Not to discredit them, because it's a hard problem, but it isn't a full
control: even on a college campus (or looking at alumni) and controlling for
weight, running and instrument training would still be proxies for various
things about upbringing or current social status, and could account for the
effects by selection bias.

That said, I think this is introductory work on the topic and definitely
justifies further inquiry.

~~~
danaliv
You're right; "control" may be too strong a word. In any case, they did at
least consider it. :)

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xivusr
I've been running since XC in HS, but reconnected in my mid twenties to
overcome addictions.

Since then I've more or less just substituted one for the other, but the
running seems to have better long-term effects.

The activity is closely connected with my work and personal life -- in that
when I don't run, the rest of my life suffers.

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oryak
This doesn't sound like a good study to me because of the two groups they are
comparing. Even in the original article (which I only had a brief look at), it
seems they didn't do a really fair comparison but compared two completely
different groups with each other.

With the same study, they could also have said "people with more brain
connections feel a stronger urge to run long distances".

A better study would have been to take a group of lazy people, divide them
into two groups, one will do long distance running in the next year, one
won't, and an additional group of current runners divided into the same
groups. Then I would start believing this.

Right now it sounds just like a flawed first-time study an undergrad did.

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Eerie
So, what kind of musical instrument can you play while running?

~~~
aczerepinski
Sousaphone is an instrument that's meant to be worn, so I would start there.

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rokosbasilisk
I would like to see this study replicated as the sample size of 22 seems low,
and I have a strong suspicion nutrition plays a very large role as covariate
here.

Just not sure how generalizable this is. Ive been doing some data analysis
internship for a similar study but more brain vs circadian cycles. The human
data is often messy and does not replicate.

The clonal mouse studies data is often more consistent, and what Im building
an in silico model for.

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skookum
A hypothesis mentioned in the original paper: "...it is also possible that the
cognitive benefits of exercise occur because locomotion is not simply an
automated repetitive motor task, but is instead a highly complex behavior that
involves domains related to both motor and cognitive functions. For example,
walking or running through complex environments can engage several components
of executive function including volition, self-awareness, planning,
inhibition, monitoring, attentional switching and multi-tasking, in addition
to motor control..."

If that is indeed the mechanism which accounts for the brain differences
claimed, perhaps mountaineers, sidecountry & backcountry skiers or
snowboarders, mountain bikers or long-distance hikers might be better groups
than runners for validating this.

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syphilis2
I found a lot of my questions from the article were quickly explained by
looking over the paper.

[http://dx.doi.org/10.3389/fnhum.2016.00610](http://dx.doi.org/10.3389/fnhum.2016.00610)

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CopOnTheRun
So maybe I missed it in the article, but it seems like they just tested a
group of physically active students, and those who weren't. Does running have
anything to do with the "functional connectivity" or is it just exercise in
general? The article says we've known exercising is good for the brains of
older people for some time now, the new study just tested the effects on
younger people. Shouldn't the title be "exercise is good for the brains of
young people too"?

~~~
bo1024
I think part of the point is that even apparently-"mindless" exercise is now
shown to also be good. See this paragraph:

> _Previous studies have shown that activities that require fine motor
> control, such as playing a musical instrument, or that require high levels
> of hand-eye coordination, such as playing golf, can alter brain structure
> and function. However, fewer studies have looked at the effects of more
> repetitive athletic activities that don’t require as much precise motor
> control — such as running. Raichlen’s and Alexander’s findings suggest that
> these types of activities could have a similar effect._

~~~
Johnny555
_fewer studies have looked at the effects of more repetitive athletic
activities that don’t require as much precise motor control — such as running_

Is it really true though that running doesn't require precise motor control?
Every time I run, my feel "automatically" skip over imperfections in the road
surface, placing my foot down early just before the big crack in the sidewalk,
sidestepping the dog poop on the sidewalk, leaping off the curb while my eyes
are focused on traffic.

And unlike the guy that plays golf where he's only focusing for a few minutes
per hole, my feet are active for my entire one hour run and my mind is guiding
my feet for 10,000 steps throughout the run.

It may be a different part of the brain than deciding how to hit a ball to
reach a target 300m away, but there's still a lot of eye-foot coordination in
running.

~~~
bo1024
Great point. I was thinking that a great study to get at this could be
comparing treadmill-only and outside-only runners.

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JustSomeNobody
Here's a question. I have no desire to learn an instrument, so is it still
possible to learn enough music theory to reap the mental benefits?

As far as running goes, my knees don't allow for it.

~~~
Swizec
> my knees don't allow for it

Start slow, buy shoes appropriate for your gait, work on technique. I have bad
knees running in the family, had tendon injuries in both of them as a kid too.
Used to get a lot of pain when running then I decided to focus on my
technique, taking it slow (like, 2 mile runs at 10min/mile cause running
longer or faster felt like the death)

Now 3 years later I run a 4hr marathon and the only time my knees hurt is when
it's time to buy new shoes.

And yes, it is a great excuse if you don't actually want to run. My advice is
for if you want to but think you can't :)

PS: start slow can mean "long leisurely walk" depending on your shape. Tendons
and joints need to get used to being used

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Thanks.

My right knee does need to have a professional look at it; I've just been
putting that off. Same professional tells me I need more exercise (I eat
healthy so that helps me not be _too_ bad, though). I see there's some
avoidance there now that I'm typing all this. :)

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renafowler
Hmm it depends upon where you run. Diesel fumes give you a stroke

~~~
dsacco
Do you have any literature I could read about this? Part of my running route
is next to a busy street in the morning.

~~~
renafowler
Here you go: [http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-
lifestyle/fitness/expert-a...](http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-
lifestyle/fitness/expert-answers/air-pollution-and-exercise/faq-20058563)

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tdrd
It's not even clear that this is about running. They compared runners to
sedentary individuals; this sounds like another "exercise is good" conclusion
to me.

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SFJulie
/me is often downvoted : I should not be then.

I play bass, and can run 15km in one hour without breaking too much of a
sweat.

Humm ... better means nothing... Yet another whizz bang science that is void
of any sense.

But it is nice to have ego boosting article.

~~~
devdad
So you're sub40ish at 10k and lands at 60ish at 15k. If true, that's
impressive.

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woutervegter
if you really want to improve your brain during exercise, try dancing like
jazz/modern/lyric/ballet/street. A nearly common characteristic of dancing
people I know is that their mind is quite bright

some arguments: [http://neuro.hms.harvard.edu/harvard-mahoney-neuroscience-
in...](http://neuro.hms.harvard.edu/harvard-mahoney-neuroscience-
institute/brain-newsletter/and-brain-series/dancing-and-brain)

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r3dk1ng
I always assumed all things that required effort and coordination between the
two halves of the brain would increase the connectivity, specifically over the
corpus callosum.

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sctb
We've updated the title from “Runners and musicians have better-connected
brains than the rest of us” to that of the article.

