
Is it OK to Want to Make Money? - ColinWright
http://swombat.com/2010/12/7/ok-to-want-to-make-money
======
edw519
2 quick stories:

1\. My fraternity brother's father (a successful doctor) took the two of us
out to dinner. He asked what I was studying. I told him computers. He said,
"Good. As you know, I want John to study medicine. But if he didn't want to, I
would want him to pursue computers. But definitely not law. I don't want my
son spending the rest of his life chasing dollars." Strange remark. But
somehow, it really left an impression on me. I've always wanted to have fun
and make a difference, but never wanted to be like so many business people
I've encountered whose sole purpose seems to be the pursuit of money for its
own sake.

2\. My mentor and first co-founder on the subject of money: "It's never about
the money. And it's certainly not about us. Our first, second, and third
responsibilities are making sure our customers get what they need. That being
said, it we earn a lot of money in the process, what's so bad about that?"

~~~
bhousel
_> But definitely not law. I don't want my son spending the rest of his life
chasing dollars." Strange remark._

That is a strange remark indeed, but I suppose I could understand that
sentiment coming from a doctor whose main interaction with lawyers involves
"ambulance chasers" trying to squeeze money out of his practice.

 _Most_ lawyers don't do that kind of work and aren't in it for the money,
although a law degree will mostly guarantee you a comfortable middle class
life. I know quite a few who work for the government in tiny crappy offices
and who will tell you that going to law school was the biggest mistake of
their lives. Law is a surprisingly misunderstood profession.

~~~
efsavage
I don't think he meant chasing dollars as in "make as much money as possible",
but as in the fact that many (most?) non-criminal lawyers spend their time
starting, defending or trying to prevent disputes that are ultimately just
about money.

Not that it's a bad thing, but it's foreseeable that people go into it seeking
to advance justice and other noble causes and realize 20 or 30 years down the
line that it's really all about protecting your clients' bank accounts.
Perhaps there's something to be said about the ambulance chasers being at
peace with that.

------
tomelders
It always grates me when people with lot's of money tell people who don't have
lot's of money, that it's not about the money.

Money my not equal happiness, but a lack of money certainly equals stress and
misery. And while people are being stressed and miserable, they're not at
their best.

I think people would find it hard to be so nonchalant about the importance of
money and the benefits it can bring if they were worried about how they were
going to pay the rent, or if they had a sick kid they couldn't afford to treat
properly.

~~~
_delirium
In Silicon Valley with a tech background it's rarely a very stark choice,
though. If you have good tech skills, a the default/fallback option is a
pretty nice one, materially speaking: a low 6-figure programming job at a big
company. There is very little chance of ending up unemployed-and-homeless,
given how much companies are scrambling to hire technical people.

In that context, it makes more sense to me to encourage people to think about
something other than money as their main/only goal. It is indeed something you
can only afford to do if you're privileged enough to have the option, but
being a tech person in Silicon Valley means there's a high probability that
you do have the option, because if you "fail", you can always fail back to the
6-figure corporate job, which is a pretty soft landing. So given that you can
live a materially comfortable life just taking the default route, what _else_
do you want to do?

~~~
swombat
_There is very little chance of ending up unemployed-and-homeless, given how
much companies are scrambling to hire technical people._

For now. See how it goes in 20 years.

~~~
grogs
I think the 6 figure salaries will definitely still exist. The interesting
thing is that developers cannot let their skills stagnate. If we stop learning
at 30, the 20 year olds will steal our jobs. Going the management route can be
dangerous, but going the consultant route, I think it's a pretty safe career.

------
scotty79
Perhaps it's wrong place to ask, but ...

Does anyone have an idea how to get this "hunger for money"?

I get no pleasure from earning money and almost no pleasure from things I can
buy. I find it hard to motivate myself to get rich despite the fact that I
consciously know that it could make my life bit easier.

~~~
bhousel
Money == Freedom

Don't you want freedom?

~~~
scotty79
[http://dreamflesh.com/blog/2007/06/the-millionaire-and-
the-f...](http://dreamflesh.com/blog/2007/06/the-millionaire-and-the-
fisherman/)

~~~
bhousel
I like this story a lot. But which of these men has more true freedom?

Sure we may all want to "sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take
siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could
sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos". But life isn't always this
kind.

Eventually most people will get sick, or have a sick kid or family member. Or
be victims of crime. Or need to make repairs or suffer a natural disaster. Or
be involved in a dispute with neighbors or the local government.

Money isn't important for the easy times in your life - it's important for the
difficult times.

~~~
scotty79
> Eventually most people will get sick, or have a sick kid or family member.

Thanks to cheap state health insurance I don't have to pay most of such
expenses out of my pocket.

> Or be victims of crime.

This is actually much worse when you are rich. At least in my country. Rich
seal themselves in closed enclaves out of fear for their property.

> Or need to make repairs

If you own thing that you can't afford to repair or replace and can't manage
without, you are doing it wrong.

> suffer a natural disaster

I'm not sure about this one. It's easier to get away from some natural
disasters when you can buy your place on any mode of transportation but you
have to leave so much more behind you. It could make you more hesitant to
leave.

> Or be involved in a dispute with neighbors or the local government.

It might be easier to buy your way out but having money makes you a target for
your neighbours and for the government.

But we went from "money == freedom" to "future will bite you so better stack
up a pile"

------
DanielBMarkham
I think what swombat's calling out here is the difference between the social
nature of startups, where everybody wants to look cool and do and say the
right thing, and the _actual_ nature of startups, where if you're not growing
eyeballs exponentially or making something somebody actually pays you for then
you're dead.

The startup world is a social community just like any other guild or clan. We
have leaders, common dreams, mantras, and so on. It's become quite popular for
really rich guys to tell us how it's not about the money. When I first heard
this I took it at face value. Then I realized what they were really saying was
_you can't just focus on the money_. That's a big difference!

Part of the danger in hanging out in places like HN is that it's easy to pick
up on all the social cues of the startup world and miss out on the practical
nuts and bolts of it. So we'll get our nerd on and discuss esoteric
programming concepts. Or we'll rant at company X and praise company Y for
basically doing the same thing. Or we'll vote up an essay by famous startup
icon even if it's not that worthwhile. More to the point we'll praise one
startup idea because it's "cool", then we'll shun another because it's
unpopular _in our social group_.

I love making things people want. People show me they want them by paying me.
I need the money, so this works well for everybody. Once I don't need the
money, I'll still love making things people want. At that point, however, I
need to be really damn sure I'm actually doing something that has value aside
from just a bunch of people in my peer group telling me how awesome my idea
is. And before I get there, the last thing I want to do is use their opinions
as any sort of useful metric at all on what I should be doing. Money is a much
better temporary proxy.

------
tluyben2
Money making is fine, but wanting billions is kind of weird imho. The goal of
'being the biggest search engine' is great, being a search engine and having
the goal to make 10 billion $/month is not. Again, in my opinion.

He mentions 'feed the family'; no matter what your 'family' is here, with
honest hard work you can do that without having too much money focus in your
company. But yes, the bottom line needs to be solid and you are insane if you
don't watch that like a hawk.

~~~
swombat
_But yes, the bottom line needs to be solid and you are insane if you don't
watch that like a hawk._

Looking at the average startup, it seems like insanity is the rule rather than
the exception...

~~~
tluyben2
Yeah that's what worries me when reading all the stories here; it seems that
we shouldn't care about the bottomline in startup mode. In my, maybe old,
mindset, I try to break even as fast as we can and THEN start growing.

I see a lot of exceptions where this way of company startup would not work,
but a lot of them should do it this way imho. The funding => jumping too high
method is too much slot machine for me. Especially if you are not doing
consumer services/products, it is almost always possible, if your idea has
merit, to run a profit even before you built anything. Then funding is a much
safer bet.

------
fleitz
A better question is: Should you live your life through the morality of
others?

If the answer is yes, then simply read what someone else says about making
money and do that.

If the answer is no, then you're free and can do what you want.

~~~
_delirium
That seems a bit simplistic as a binary choice. I'll ultimately choose for
myself what I think is ethical to do, but that doesn't mean I should ignore
everything anyone has ever written. Reading intelligent things other people
have written is a good way to improve my own thinking on a subject! In fact
I'd say a pure "do whatever you want" approach is somewhat intellectually
lazy, because it actively avoids engaging with and working through ideas that
might be challenging to my own preconceptions.

------
srconstantin
I don't trust people who start businesses and say they're not interested in
money. Money is one of your best gauges of whether you're doing things right.
Not being interested in money when you're working on a for-profit enterprise
makes me worry you're either unserious or disingenuous. That said, hardly
anybody _only_ cares about money. We all trade off money against other things
-- free time, independence, and so on. I care about money, but I'd rather make
a little less working on a project that'll genuinely make the world better
than a little more working on something unimportant.

------
Lucadg
I am trying hard to get of out of the "don't need to make money" mindset. It
served me very well for years: the decision that money was less important than
time allowed me to travel the world for 10 years while having a small online
business.

But now that I want my business to grow, I am really struggling with the fact
that I can live with little money. This is fine with me, but the people who
joined my project deserve better: they deserve a strong and stable company.

I am trying to find a way to "go for the money" even though my nature is not
to. It's not easy. Thanks for the article.

------
oz
TL;DR: Yes. Get that money. Get lots of it. Poverty sucks.

I left rural Jamaica to come to Kingston, the capital, in 2005. After my first
year in college, I got a summer job with a telecom startup run by an American.
My student loan was not renewed for the 2nd year, so I had to drop out, and
got a permanent position as a sysadmin at the company. The pay sucked, but I
didn't care: The family member I was living with wasn't charging me rent, and
I was having tons of fun setting up IPSec VPNs with other telecom providers,
configuring pfSense firewalls, creating SIP trunks, etc. I'd sometimes stay at
work till midnight, just exploring and learning, and be back at work at 8:30
the next morning.

I was transferred to another arm of the company 6 months later, but wasn't
getting along with the management there, and was fired. But it was ok (I
thought): I had no living expenses. I spent the next two years pottering
about, trying my hand at a few different freelance initiatives, none of which
really stuck. That was also when I discovered that I was very creative, at
least design-wise. After those 2 years, my father died. No life insurance.

This, dear reader, is when reality started to set in. This is when I got the
slap upside the head that said, "Hey! Fool! You need to start making money."

I'd applied for a job a few weeks before his death, and I got the job, doing a
mixture of bizdev, system administration, and graphic design (perhaps I'm one
of those fabled 'designgineermarketers' :) ).

Immediately, I began getting strange brown envelopes in the mail, containing
sheets with tabulated data on them, and a strange claim that somehow, I owed
them money.

I was later to find out that they were called 'bills.'

The family member also started charging rent. About time.

The student loan people called. Time to pay the piper.

I'd been bitch-slapped. By reality. It hurt.

I was 23.

I looked back at all the time I'd wasted. All the money I'd wasted. How I'd
been a burden to family.

I'd been a typical HN-reading, Ayn Rand-quoting, John Galt aspiring-
libertarian. Slowly, I began to realize the role of luck and circumstance. I
used to look down on the poor, writing them all off as lazy and not willing to
work. "How _dare_ they be poor and have a TV!", I used to think.

I changed my tune. A bitch-slap will do that to you.

I knew what real wealth looked like. The startup I had worked for had tanked,
but the founder and I were good friends, and he was independently wealthy. He
owned 4 Mercedes, and lived in a house so far up in the hills that the road
wasn't even paved. We would drive around and he would tell me about his life,
how he had been rich as a teen pop star in Britain, but squandered it all and
was broke by 20. He went to America with nothing, but built himself up through
determination and cleverness. He built a telecom switch for the cost of a PC,
and loaded Asterisk (open source telecom software) on it. Re-sold it for
US$6,000. It felt 'wrong' to me, but he taught me that it doesn't matter what
you think it's worth, it only matters what _they_ think it's worth.

He died 4 months after my father. His family didn't know where all the money
was. To this day, he has not been buried. That was over 2 years ago.

Money.

Money affects our lives in so many ways that it's difficult to overstate.
Wanna help out that friend? It's gonna cost ya. Wanna take care of your
parents? Ditto. How many great relationships have been ruined because one
party had to leave due to work? How many marital squabbles are about money?
How many friendships are ruined? And don't gimme that crap that if they were
good relationships, they would last. If you have a friend that is down on his
luck for an extended period (say a year or more), that gets old real fast.
He'll expect you to pay for dinner. And movies. And gas. And liquor at
parties. Soon you're gonna start resenting him. If he had money, it wouldn't
be a problem. It's just circumstances.

How many _lives_ are wasted in poverty?

Is it any surprise that I want money? Is it any surprise that I have dedicated
the next few years to the getting of money?

Whew. I need to stop. Or this will happen again:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2025537>

Edit: grammar

~~~
illumin8
> I'd been a typical HN-reading, Ayn Rand-quoting, John Galt aspiring-
> libertarian. Slowly, I began to realize the role of luck and circumstance. I
> used to look down on the poor, writing them all off as lazy and not willing
> to work. "How dare they be poor and have a TV!", I used to think.

Wow. I've come to expect a certain level of hypocrisy from a lot of
libertarians, but this is a pretty stark example of it. By all rights, you
qualified as one of the "moochers," yet you were perfectly happy to denounce
those like you.

Thanks for sharing your story.

~~~
cobrausn
I've come to expect hypocrisy from anyone with a strongly held value set.
Progressives touting 'diversity' while living in the suburbs and paying
exorbitant amounts to send their kids to all-white private schools,
conservatives railing about government overreach while trying to enact
'morality' laws, libertarians looking down on moochers while living under a
different safety net.

This happens because we hold values. The easiest way not to be a hypocrite is
not to have any. I find it's better to have values, get called out on
violating them, and try to improve, than it is to have none. YMMV.

~~~
gxs
>> I've come to expect hypocrisy from anyone with a strongly held value set.

I think that succinctly sums it up.

The problem with "values" is that they are an excuse to never have to think
critically. Something comes up, you just tag it with a "value" and act
accordingly. It simple, it works, and you never have to think!

I don't understand what part of thinking is so taxing that you can't take a
couple minutes to make up your mind on each issue vs using big blanket
statements to run your life.

~~~
3pt14159
I get where you are coming from on this, but honestly sometimes things are
just subclasses (in the programming sense) of something that you have thought
a lot about and ultimately completely rejected.

For example: "The government should sometimes run things that private industry
can run and compete upon" is the super class of "the government should run
envelope delivery" so why should I not just dismiss the second statement
immediately if I firmly dismiss the first?

Sometimes edge cases pop up, but why waste the time to go through the cycles
of reiterating all the same points?

~~~
gxs
I think if you take the time to see if something is actually an edge case or
not, you'll see that we are arguing the same thing.

------
digitalengineer
Relevant (and fun): F*ck You, Pay me. <http://vimeo.com/22053820>

Making money is difficult enough. Don't leave all that money on the table.

------
drostie
After seeing many responses which contain many paragraphs, I tried to condense
this one down as short as possible:

Readers may find it interesting to reflect that this question, "is it okay to
want to make money?", is not really much of a question in other religions, and
ultimately stems from the Christian background of the Western cultures. In
Indian religions, for example, doing well in business and earning a bunch of
money are considered good actions, good _karma_ , and will bring you a better
rebirth. Being good at what you do is just part of being good. Now, it won't
allow you to _end_ the cycle of rebirth to achieve moksha/mukti/nirvana,
because all karma binds you to the cycle of rebirth, but it will let you
"climb the ladder" to a life where you are better suited to pursue these
ultimate goals of self-annihilation.

So if you're a Christian the answer is probably "no" -- "harder for a camel to
pass through the eye of a needle" and all that. But the linked post is trying
to utter something more Confucian or Hindu; it's your _duty_ to make money to
support your family, _go and do your duty_.

------
edanm
An essay that helped me a lot in coming to my views on wealth is PG's essay
"Mind the Gap".

If you haven't read it, I recommend you check it out.

<http://paulgraham.com/gap.html>

Also good:

<http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html>

------
Symmetry
To quote someone who said it better than me:

"If you don't make at least a little money in the process, how can you be sure
that you're creating value?"

<http://lesswrong.com/lw/ux/traditional_capitalist_values/>

------
jakejake
I find there are three types of people who will try to make you feel guilty
about wanting money. The first are people who have chosen non-lucrative
careers and will want you to feel that your work is shallow. The second are
people who have an invested interest in paying workers lower wages in order to
make their money. The third are people who are young, in school and not yet
working full time and paying bills.

Living your life based on money is probably not the way to find happiness. But
it's good to know the motivations of people who would judge you for wanting
money.

------
kamaal
"When I was young I thought that money was the most important thing in life;
now that I am old I know that it is." - Oscar Wilde

Like it or not money matters. It matters more than you think, even if you take
into account this statement.

While you are young you can go sleep anywhere, eat two minute noodles and go
from hand to mouth without getting much into the rougher side of life. As you
age, you get a family, you get kids, you fall sick, you need to tend to a
thousand responsibilities and bills.

Want to put a dent in the universe? good! Sure do it. But before that ensure
you have enough cash before you are 40-45 to not worry about getting up every
morning and run to make ends meet.

Life can be a lot more rewarding if you have a financial comfort pillow to
rest on and not to worry about getting fired, or loosing a job, or a market
crash or you kids leaving you to stay away from you.

Just have enough cash in you pocket, you will be a lot more happier. Even if
you are not, you can be comfortable sad with money than without.

------
simonbarker87
This is one of our main points in a presentation my co founder and I give when
asked to speak at events.

Our product has useful features for people who struggle to heat their home
(our product isn't software, its made of plastic) and our VC sat us down
(before they invested) and said that we needed to focus more on the making
money side of things and not helping poor people - helping poor people would
come as a result of being successful, staying in business and delivering on
customer demand. His main point was that without aiming to make money then we
wouldn't stay in business very long as no one would invest in us and
ultimately no one would benefit from our product.

How you make that money on the other hand, well that's up for discussion,
there are a multitude of unethical business practices that make the desire to
make money seem unpleasant. Avoid those and wanting to make money is fine.

------
jimworm
Making money almost always goes with creating value, but in some cases the
optimal strategy to make money does not involve creating value.

If a business that treats money as its primary objective encounters one of
these cases, it will defeat its value-creating competition and become a
parasite to society.

------
gaisturiz
Money is a means, not an end (unless of course you’re a rare coins collector.)
I don’t consider myself a Silicon Valley insider by any measure, but from the
outside it doesn’t seem like there’s an “It’s not about the money” culture.
Billion dollar acquisitions and multi-billion dollar IPOs certainly reflect
Silicon Valley’s acknowledgement that money is fundamental in any business
process. Which brings me back to my first point: to reach any meaningful
scale, anyone who wants to solve a problem or make the world more
interconnected needs a myriad of resources. It would seem that making money is
not only OK, but up to a certain point necessary; not to splurge on yachts and
mansions, but rather to acquire the best tools and talent said money can
procure.

------
FreeFull
Money is not inherently evil. What really matters is how you make it, and
where you spend it. If you make money making people better off, and spend it
making people better off, there is nothing wrong at all. Unfortunately some
people make money making people worse off, which is where money might get it's
bad reputation. This might happen if the people think maximising income is
more important than anything else (which might or might not lead them onto a
path detrimental to other people, but immoral practices are often so
profitable). The people who make a lot of money making people happy on the
other hand probably care about their income, but also care strongly enough
about other things for it to influence their decisions.

------
mseebach
The Economist had a very good column on this subject a little while ago:

> _In living memory, some middle-class Britons would not allow delivery boys
> to come to their front door; the tradesmen’s entrance was at the side.
> [....] And their modern descendants, the middle-class intelligentsia who
> populate the continent’s universities and staff its public sector, have a
> tendency to despise the businesspeople who generate the wealth needed to
> fund their way of living. There is great distaste at the idea that political
> choices should be dictated by “the markets”; investors should just hand over
> their money and not ask whether it will be paid back._

<http://www.economist.com/node/21541857>

------
cjmauthor
I believe this question is relative to an individual's current position in
life. Let's face it, if you have been living in a really challenged position
always hiding from creditors and living meagerly for some time the pressure to
just get "Family Money" is at the forefront of every venture. There is nothing
wrong with that. I am working 7 days a week on my startup and I have yet to
get the family money. I want to make a difference in the world with all my
heart and soul, and I would really love to get the family money out of the way
so I can focus on making that difference. It is ok to want a little bit of
comfort, that will give you the physical presence you need to make a
difference.

------
j45
Building something smaller to feed the family increases your longevity in the
startup game. You can play longer with new ideas, let them develop as they
mature, and lots more. Pay attention to whether people who look down on
lifestyle businesses already have that lifestyle of not worrying about money..
easier said when that's the case.

Initially having something that pays the bills for you can be an important
step learning the first business and marketing skills of ones life. Having
these makes you more valuable and capable of not only fetching funding should
it be something you want, but a lot more of it because you preemptively make
business considerations as you go.

------
kator
My dad has a great poster on his wall in his home office.

It says: SUCCESS - I've managed to eat and not be eaten and find a place to
sleep every night.

Success is a personal measure, we often externalize it and try to measure it
against other's perceptions. If you choose to measure yourself against people
who think "Money is Evil" or "Greed is Good" then that is just a choice. No
different then choosing to put sugar in your coffee or not drinking coffee at
all.

I've always considered myself a passionate pragmatist. I've started many
companies, sold some, bought some, crashed some and put some in mothballs. I
love the creation process. It's my hook. At the same time I try and estimate
the financial impact of those decisions and balance my passion with a
pragmatic review of the risks. Sometimes I make boat loads of money and other
times I am lucky to get out with my life. But always it's a balance of rewards
and money can be one of those rewards. The reality is that the most rewarding
parts are the people I meet along the way, the things I've learned and the
passion I felt for those projects as I executed on them. If you look at money
as just a game token like many other tokens in life then you might be ok if
you don't obsess about it. I personally think often about how many people
would be willing to take time out of of their busy lives to visit me when I
die. It sounds morbid but it's also another interesting measure of your impact
on the world. Don't focus on the money, focus on the tools you need and goals
you have for yourself in your life. But know that money is just another tool
that might help you meet your overall goals. That said you can become a monk
and let go of all possessions and I know some people who have done that and
they say it's the most rewarding thing they've ever done. But clearly its not
compatible with the goals I currently hold in my life. Maybe when I get a bit
older I'll change my mind. Because again, the power to change your mind is
still yours!

I have managed for 30 years to follow my passion and the whole time I've
managed to eat and not be eaten and find a place to sleep each night. I've
done amazing things, met amazing people and learned more then I could have
ever imagined was available to me. What more can you ask for in life?

------
majani
The mistake people make is to toss any thoughts of making money to the side.
As pg says, get ramen profitable as quickly as you can. That really changes
your attitude, and allows for the long term thinking.

------
meric
The article does not say _want to make money at any cost_. It just says _want
to make money_. I want to make money doing things I love. For any job I am
willing to do, I want to make sure my pay is as high as possible, _for that
job_.

Lots of people saying how many jobs does not add value to society, and so
people who want to make money are evil. That's not what the article is talking
about! If you want to make money and don't want to do those jobs, then make
money through other means!

------
ajuc
It's ok to want to be rich, but wanting something you won't get is unplesant,
so people often rationalize they are there just for fun.

Certainly for me it works that way - if it's hobby project, I can't fail at
it. If it's business I do to be rich, and I'm not rich in 5 years, I've
failed.

Having fun seems to be easier to achieve than commercial success, and for some
people (like me) it's easier to do sth, if it seems achievable.

------
king_jester
A lot of people here have said that their is nothing wrong with wanting to
make money, but I have the opposite opinion: I do not think it is ok to WANT
to make money.

I recognize that making money is required in order to live in a capitalist
society, since that is the primary way you will acquire food, shelter,
clothing, etc. I make money personally and recognize that it is necessary. How
could I create software or volunteer if I can't even feed or clothe myself?

However, I do not WANT to make money. I recognize that capitalism is a system
that depends on the exploitation of others, usually people I do not see or
interact with unless I go out of my way to find them. We live in a world where
there are many people who cannot feed or clothe themselves, cannot afford
shelter, cannot have determination in what they do or the work they must take
on. This is a world that I want to sincerely change to no longer require
money. Isn't this the great future promise of sci-fi like Star Trek, that
humanity will give up capitalism and exploitation and provide for every human?

The primary many readers here engage in software development is in a
commercial context (myself included). However, I would much prefer to gather
with like minded individuals to create software because I love to create
software, not because there is a promise of a payout. Many others here feel
the same way, but never forget that we benefit from capitalism while others
suffer from it. I would rather remove money altogether than worry about
acquiring more of it.

------
sparknlaunch12
Amen!

Whenever I ask "startup" people - "how does it make money?" - I often get odd
looks. The same people are usually on the look out for funding.

Yes, it is honourable to run a business for love and passion of the idea.
However money pays the bills and keeps you in the game longer.

It is not so honourable to ask for money from investors when you haven't
considered how your idea will generate revenue.

------
robforman
Don't strive to make money for money sake alone. There doesn't appear to be
any correlation between money and happiness.

But I, like most hackers, enjoy building things of value. And people are used
to paying for what they value (there are exceptions of course). I use making
money, especially early on, as a validator and indicator of progress.

------
overshard
It depends on what you want to make that money for. To live a stress-free,
comfortable, happy life and help your community/world in return with that
money? Or to just spend all of that money on yourself in expensive cars, big
houses and drugs. It all depends on what you use the money for...

~~~
digitalengineer
No it doesn't really matter. Let them buy expensive cars, big houses and what
not. If they've earned it, they get to spend it. (And I'm sure the local
business owners, car sales man, builders... won't disagree). Besides, they'll
pay taxes on everything they spend. Would it be nice for others if they were
to invest in their own community? Sure! But they're not required to do so.

------
mgkimsal
I can't find the quote, but I think it was Dave Ramsey who said (says?)
something like "You can't help others from a position of weakness". Broadly
true, although even moreso from a financial point of view, and one which
guides much of my views on money/work/business.

------
gautamsomani
A simple and straight to the point thought. Nothing wrong about it for sure.
After all, how long can you be creative and bold if you ain't got enough to
"feed your family"?

------
gouranga
There is nothing wrong with making money as long as in the process you do not
hurt anyone directly or indirectly.

The latter is hard if not impossible which is where the system breaks.

------
shmerl
> you need the opposite temperament: a hunger for money.

Wrong. It's easily leads one to make money a self goal, which a grave pitfall.

------
AznHisoka
Asking if its ok to want to make money is analogous to asking if its ok to
marry someone because they look beautiful.

------
ExpiredLink
> Some people have an aversion to making money.

Those people have culture. Obviously 99.95% of the Silicon valley have no
culture.

------
mindcruzer
Of course it's OK to want to make money. Your desires don't require the
approval of other people.

------
radikalus
You need to make a lot of money to finance your spaceship startup.

------
chpolk
Good article, let money enrich your life and not define it.

------
tehansen
Money is not an end, it is the means

------
pcvarmint
Is it okay to want food?

Then you have your answer.

------
nirvana
There's a false dichotomy in a lot of these discussions. There isn't a
contradiction between helping society and making money. Virtually every legal
way I know of making money helps society.

The money you make comes from somewhere- generally customers who are parting
with it. Why are they parting with it? Because they prefer what you're buying
to the alternative.

People spend, in the aggregate, because it makes their lives better. Even
hoarders drowning in needless stuff are spending the money to assuage the pain
they would feel if they didn't.

The vast majority of software has a serious positive impact on the customers
lives. We may wonder about Instagram, but instagram made a LOT of people
happy. Making people happy is a positive benefit to society.

Plus, lets remember what money is. Money is a medium of exchange, its not the
thing itself. It is a medium for trading your labor or your intellect. A ditch
digger rents his body out at work in exchange for money. When he buys shoes,
the money is simply they conveyance of the value from digging the ditch to the
person selling the shoes.

When a software developer uses his brilliance to come up with a new program,
he's trading his brainpower for whatever he ends up being with that money.
Money is the medium that enables efficient transactions where barter failed.
That's all.

Money is really another way of saying life.

People don't trade their life away, generally, except where it is profitable.

You make a billion bucks by making something people want? You've improved
their lives probably by 7-9 billion dollars worth.

$7 for a movie? Worth more than $7 in entertainment to the person buying it...
or they wouldn't buy it.

You don't get to be a millionaire by making people miserable.

(and I need to get a blog going, I think my comment is longer than the
original article.)

~~~
masenghi
>Virtually every legal way I know of making money helps society.

HFT and Domain squatting are legal.

~~~
aay4
The people who make money doing this will spend the money on goods and
services, which in turn benefits the people involved in providing them.

~~~
Estragon
Actually, the HFT people are more likely to sock their winnings away. Anyway,
"I take money from people so that I can increase the national GDP by spending
it" is not much of an argument for a socially valuable way of life.

~~~
PKop
Sock money away where, in their mattress? No, in the bank, money market,
investments, etc. thereby increases the available funds for others to start
businesses, take out loans, provide liquidity to the market. "Take money from
people", you mean engage in a mutually beneficial and agreed upon transaction
where you take money and give a product or service... yea not the same as
theft.

~~~
Estragon
I don't agree with "mutually beneficial" in either case, and "agreed upon" is
murky in the case of HFT and at least somewhat misleading in the case of
domain squatting.

And "I take money from people to increase available funds for others' business
purposes" is not much of an ethical argument, either.

------
maeon3
Alternative questions: Is it OK to want to make money at zero sum games where
your windfall causes other people's losses? For example roulette, poker, and
trading cards?

Is it OK to want to make money at win-win games? For example restoring a
vehicle, Writing a book or solving a new problem?

The problem here is that very powerful organizations in this country are daily
trying to brainwash people into thinking that somehow the green slip contracts
in our pockets are evil. Having money, or wanting money is morally suspect.
These powerful organizations control media narratives, political talking
points, church services, and pretty much every company in America who is
interested in turning a profit from the masses.

Is it OK to get an education for yourself and your children? Yes. Is it OK to
go to the hospital when you are sick? Yes. Is it OK to want to make money? No.
Your money is morally suspect, take some out, and give it to me, there will be
a net gain in righteousness in the universe when the money flows from your
pocket to mine.

~~~
pjscott
Good point. After you make the distinction between making money at another
person's expense, and making money in a way that makes the world as a whole
wealthier, the whole question kind of dissolves.

------
michaelochurch
Answer: yes, sure. It's far more honorable to want to be wealthy than, for
example, to vie for social status or power over other people. I want to be
wealthy; I wish everyone were.

I feel like I'm an old (28) knight, having learned the hard way that people
are not honorable. For the record, I've seen more disgusting behavior in
supposedly "world-changing" startups than many people see in their lives, and
far more than I saw in finance, which is supposed to be unethical and full of
greed but (quite honestly) doesn't look very different from anywhere else. The
most ethical of the 5 companies where I've worked was in finance.

First, it's not about what you _want_ , it's about what you _do_. There's
nothing wrong with wanting to have money. You _should_ want to have money if
you're smart. Why? Because money is a vote and the World's First Problem is
that most decisions aren't being made my smart or competent people. So get out
there, do great work, and see if you can make a mark. You're only doing wrong
if you start making moral compromises to get money or influence. If you turn
unethical, then you become part of the more severe World's Second Problem,
which is that the few genuinely smart people in positions of power and
influence are generally unethical.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to have financial freedom and autonomy. If
you don't have these things, chances are that your life will amount to very
little. That's not the same thing as wanting to be a billionaire, though. If
your net worth is $3 billion and you're trying to get to $6B to show up that
other guy, then your motives are probably not good.

Social climbers I find pretty revolting, but the desire to do good work and be
well paid for it is, I've come to realize, honorable.

Now, bad people do slimy things for all kinds of reasons, and often those
reasons have little to do with material gain. Sometimes it's status or
vengeance, and sometimes it's just a desire "to see what happens". Malevolent
curiosity is a powerful motivator having nothing to do with money or
measurable personal benefit. Again, it's not peoples' motivations that make
them bad or good. It's what they actually do.

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why I encountered far more sleaze
in VC-funded startups than in finance, and I think I figured it out. _False
poverty._ Now, I'd he hard-pressed to call a startup CEO making $150,000 per
year "poor", but a lot of these people feel poor, given that a 27-year-old
venture capitalist with no accomplishments to his name is making twice that,
just because his daddy got him into Harvard Business School. When people get a
sense that they "should" be doing so much better (being VCs instead of being
founders with their hands out) they feel poor, they feel desperate, and they
act desperate.

Finance has its share of slime, for sure, but the false poverty is less
prevalent. Bankers know they _aren't_ poor and that they're not allowed to act
that way.

This might also explain why the politics and in-fighting in low-paying but
"glamorous" industries like fashion and UES nonprofitistan are so much worse.
Because these people are paid poorly, they have a sense of living on a
precipice and will do _anything_ to avoid falling off. Although this is also a
false poverty (because most of these people could change industries and do OK)
it has the same effect.

The conclusion of all this should be the obvious one. Greed isn't good, but
hunger is worse.

~~~
pushingbits
"Because these people are paid poorly, they have a sense of living on a
precipice and will do anything to avoid falling off."

This is actually a positive externality (well, depending on how you look at
it) of providing some sort of social security net. You get to live in a
society where people are less incentivized to stab each other in the back. Of
course, they are also less incentivized to work themselves out of being-close-
to-the-cliff.

On the other hand, in societies where, if you don't have any money, you are
starving on the street as well as ostracized, you can hardly ever trust anyone
not to carve you up if there is anything to be gained by it.

I once heard of a doctor working for an NGO in a major Indian city (I think it
was Calcutta), who talked about how it was virtually impossible for a white
person to make a friend there, because everyone he met was just trying to use
him to gain status/money in some fashion.

~~~
michaelochurch
I agree completely. Why does the US have so much crime? Because there's no
safety net. (The War on Drugs also contributes in a major way.) This ends up
being foolish, because we pay more to keep people in prison (over $30,000 per
year) than we would by providing them with education and training. We have the
resources to get rid of poverty, but we're spending what we have in
phenomenally stupid ways.

~~~
RobertKohr
You have two separate arguments twisted into one.

1) Getting rid of the war on drugs would be a good thing. As it would save
money and not cause as much crime (drug war causes crime).

2) You can spend money on education and training to reduce poverty.

Please keep your arguments separate rather than using one issue as a support
for another. That 30K per prisoner could be spent on any number of things, or
simply not collected from the public at all.

Personally, I agree with 1. That would be fantastic, and I think that there is
a political ball rolling slowly towards that.

The second, well, we do spend a lot on education and training. I am not so
sure that it does much more than make education more expensive.

~~~
rhizome
_(drug war causes crime)_

I phrase this as "the drug war is a collection of laws that are not required
for the proper functioning of society."

------
toomanysecrets
yes

