
Magic Leap’s technology may be years away from completion - evilnig
http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/8/13894000/magic-leap-ar-microsoft-hololens-way-behind
======
kevinburke
So VR is hard enough - to avoid jitter that makes users feel sick you have to
respond to a user's head movement, render a new frame with the new information
the user should see, respond to any button presses, then draw the frame, in
under 14-20ms.

Magic Leap was always a much more difficult problem... they have to respond to
a user's head movement, _parse the scene_ the user is looking at (which could
be anything), figure out what to draw and where to draw it on the user's
environment, then render, all in the same 14-20ms window.

Compounding that they have to do it with a much weaker CPU/GPU/battery than
Oculus and friends, which use a phone, or are tethered to a PC with a $1,000
GPU. You wear Magic Leap on your head, no cables.

On its face I was always sort of surprised to hear about the good demos; it
always seemed like such a difficult problem, and I know the VR folks are
having a tough enough time with it.

~~~
Animats
That's not the big unsolved problem with augmented reality. Those are all
problems VR systems can already solve with enough money and transistors behind
them. The AR big problem is displaying dark. You can put bright things on the
display, but not dark ones. Microsoft demos their VR systems only in
environments with carefully controlled dim lighting. The same is true of Meta.
Laster just puts a dimming filter in front of the real world to dim it out so
the overlays show up well.

Is there any AR headgear which displays the real world optically and can
selectively darken the real world? Magic Leap pretended to do that, but now it
appears they can't. You could, of course, do it by focusing the real scene on
a focal plane, like a camera, using a monochrome LCD panel as a shutter, and
refocusing the scene to infinity. But the optics for that require some length,
which means bulky headgear like night vision glasses. Maybe with nonlinear
optics or something similarly exotic it might be possible. But if there was a
easy way to do this, DoD would be using it for night vision gear.

~~~
sillysaurus3
_The AR big problem is displaying dark. You can put bright things on the
display, but not dark ones._

There is actually a solution (EDIT: nope, see replies), but it's tricky: If
you stack two sheets of polarizing filters on top of each other, then rotate
them, you can get them to pass all light at 0 degrees rotation and block all
light at 90 degrees rotation. It's like special paper that adjusts brightness
depending on how much it's rotated relative to the sheet of paper behind it.
[https://www.amazon.com/Educational-Innovations-Polarizing-
Fi...](https://www.amazon.com/Educational-Innovations-Polarizing-
Filter/dp/B009P8B548)

So you could imagine cutting a series of circular polarizing filters and using
them as "pixels". If you had a grid of 800x600 of these tiny filters, and a
way to control them at 60 fps, you'd have a very convincing way of "displaying
dark" in real time.

It'd require some difficult R&D to be viable. Controlling 800x600 = 480,000
tiny surfaces at 60fps would take some clever mechanics, to put it mildly.
Maybe it won't ever be viable, but at least there's theoretically a way to do
this.

A minor problem with this approach is that the polarizing filter may affect
the colors behind it. But humans are very good at adapting to a constant color
overlay, so it might not be an issue.

~~~
tedsanders
The problem with that solution is optical, I believe. It would work if you
were able to put such a filter directly on your retina, but when you put it
earlier in the path of the light, before images are focused, you cannot
selectively block individual pixels as they appear on your retina. As a
result, the dark spots will look blurry.

(Also, if the pixels are dense enough I imagine you'll get diffraction.)

Here's is Michael Abrash's better explanation:

>“But wait,” you say (as I did when I realized the problem), “you can just put
an LCD screen with the same resolution on the outside of the glasses, and use
it to block real-world pixels however you like.” That’s a clever idea, but it
doesn’t work. You can’t focus on an LCD screen an inch away (and you wouldn’t
want to, anyway, since everything interesting in the real world is more than
an inch away), so a pixel at that distance would show up as a translucent blob
several degrees across, just as a speck of dirt on your glasses shows up as a
blurry circle, not a sharp point. It’s true that you can black out an area of
the real world by occluding many pixels, but that black area will have a wide,
fuzzy border trailing off around its edges. That could well be useful for
improving contrast in specific regions of the screen (behind HUD elements, for
example), but it’s of no use when trying to stencil a virtual object into the
real world so it appears to fit seamlessly.

[http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/why-you-wont-see-
hard-...](http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/why-you-wont-see-hard-ar-
anytime-soon/)

~~~
kbenson
What about Near-Eye Light Field Displays[1][2]? From what I've seen those look
to have promise in solving some focus problems _and_ some of the problems with
how cumbersome most VR/AR displays are. As a bonus, they can correct for
prescriptions.

1:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwCwtBxZM7g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwCwtBxZM7g)

2:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hLzESOf8SE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hLzESOf8SE)

------
temuze
Can anyone name a company that raised significant money pre-launch in a party
round and that turned out okay?

Color, Clinkle, Theranos, Magic Leap... they all have that in common. I'd be
interested if there are counter examples.

~~~
new299
What's a significant amount of money?

Solexa raised 130MUSD pre-launch: [http://41j.com/blog/2016/01/a-solexa-
story/](http://41j.com/blog/2016/01/a-solexa-story/)

Quite a new life science/biotech companies do.

~~~
bhouston
I think biomedical companies are very different than technology companies in
terms of product launches. So not really comparable.

------
evv
Not surprising, given that the hype train was billowing at full steam. A
friend of a friend interviewed there and eventually walked away saying "Wow.
That is a lot of cool-aid"

Meanwhile, teams like Oculus are reportedly trying to sidestep AR by investing
in "mixed reality", which will bring live camera feeds in to VR, with screens
still covering both eyes.

~~~
monk_e_boy
Interesting for sure, but from what I've hear from people using the Rift it's
the fixed focus that gives them headaches.

I know of a company that make cut scenes for A games, most of their people
can't wear the Oculus for more than a few minutes. Big headaches, motion
sickness, etc...

Before you jump on me, this could be due to the stuff they are trying to show
on the Rift -- would content make a difference? Sudden shifts in scene from
close to far off?

~~~
pfranz
I do vr projects for work occasionally and previously was in film when they
were pushing stereo. Content makes a huge difference. On a flat screen the
most dramatic space contrast is left-to-right, in stereo it's near to far. If
you're exaggerating something you'd use those. It's way more fatiguing on your
eyes to focus near to far, than left to right--it also takes like 10x as long
for people to focus and recognize something that changes near-to-far.

FPS games are awful for VR when you move around with a joystick. Also, a lot
of the "dramatic" things that get used to try and sell games make you dizzy.
There's also some acclimation. They say devs are the worst subjects for
testing of some vr demo will cause sickness.

I also think people underplay the motion sickness film and FPS video games can
have on people who are unacclimated (FPS games didn't have big money pushing
it in the early 90's and were on tiny, low res screens). I know I've felt
motion sickness playing flight simulators and certain FPS games, especially at
first. Movies like Blair Witch and Cloverfield were criticised for making
people feel sick.

To address the focus problem, I've been wondering why there's not much talk
about light fields for VR (maybe because of patents?).

~~~
tomjakubowski
I don't know anything about this topic, but there was a demo/paper at SIGGRAPH
2015 of a light-field HMD. It was a pretty popular booth, for what that's
worth: [http://www.computationalimaging.org/publications/the-
light-f...](http://www.computationalimaging.org/publications/the-light-field-
stereoscope/)

------
Analemma_
Wow. So if Magic Leap is vaporware, does that leave Microsoft as the only ones
publicly making progress in AR? Plenty of companies are shipping VR, but AR
ends up being the future, HoloLens is building up quite a lead.

~~~
pj_mukh
"Magic Leap is vaporware" Where are you getting that? The article seems to
imply that feature to feature they are matching the Hololens and that is the
worst case scenario.

Edit: On second thought you maybe meeting the exact definition of Vaporware in
that they are not manufacturing it yet[1]. No indication that they won't be
able to though.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware)

~~~
cocktailpeanuts
Well it hasn't shipped for a long time, and as it stands now it's worse than
its competition, not to mention they have way less resources than their
competition. And probably the main reason they didn't ship until now is
exactly because of all these reasons. Which means the more time they spend not
shipping, the harder it will become for them to ship.

I think it's fair to speculate that they will end up as vaporware. Only
alternative I can see is them pivoting to a more niche field so that they
don't directly compete with hololens.

People started saying Duke Nukem Forever was a vaporware long before the
parent company actually admitted it.

~~~
flylib
"and as it stands now it's worse than its competition"

except it isn't, the information article is one person's opinion and other
people that have used the production device have said differently

------
minimaxir
This is essentially a reblog of the (paywalled) The Information article:
[https://www.theinformation.com/the-reality-behind-magic-
leap](https://www.theinformation.com/the-reality-behind-magic-leap)

~~~
voltagex_
I went to
[https://membership.theinformation.com/subscribe](https://membership.theinformation.com/subscribe)
because it looks like something I'd pay for. I _hate_ the trend of not putting
pricing upfront. I'm just going to assume I can't afford it.

Edit: possibly $400USD/year from [https://hunterwalk.com/2013/12/17/400-for-
the-information-is...](https://hunterwalk.com/2013/12/17/400-for-the-
information-is-about-whats-missing-not-whats-there/)

~~~
Aeolun
The pricing is hidden somewhere in their FAQ
([https://theinformation.zendesk.com/hc/en-
us/articles/2188655...](https://theinformation.zendesk.com/hc/en-
us/articles/218865517-How-much-do-your-subscriptions-cost-))

That said, $40/month is a bit much. I'm paying less for the IDE that I'm using
every single day. I doubt I'd be getting the same value out of that website.

~~~
voltagex_
It's definitely not targeted at you and I, which is a pity because it appears
to be one of the sources for quite a few articles I've read.

------
Jerry2
Karl Guttag, one of the MagicLeap critics and analysts has an interesting
update on what he thinks ML will actually release [0]. The product they might
release is actually different from what all the hype has been about: LCOS
Microdisplay, two sequential focus planes, Variable Focus, photonics Chip.

[0]: [http://www.kguttag.com/2016/12/06/magic-leap-when-reality-
hi...](http://www.kguttag.com/2016/12/06/magic-leap-when-reality-hits-the-
fan/)

------
guycook
> But at least one of these videos — showing an alien invader game that let
> the wearer of the supposed headset or glasses make use of real-world objects
> — was created by visual effects studio Weta Workshop. Prior to today, it was
> believed Weta had simply created the visual assets for the game. However,
> The Information reveals the entire video was created by the studio.

Was this ever really in doubt? You don't have to be a physicist or AR expert
to note that throughout the video they occlude bright background colours with
dark AR elements - somehow projecting 'black light'. Whilst I wouldn't expect
the man on the street to pick this up it would be nice if journalists about to
pen a breathless puff piece would at least give the subject matter 30 seconds
of consideration.

~~~
bhouston
Here is the video in question:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPMHcanq0xM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPMHcanq0xM)
It doesn't have any disclaimers that this was faked -- some earlier videos
from Magic Leap did have disclaimers.

It is obviously too high resolution and pixel perfect to be from a headset
display though. So it didn't fool me, but I think the way it is presented
could be quite misleading to folks without a 3D background.

EDIT: Later when Magic Leap did post videos that didn't use post production to
create the effects, they put in a disclaimer that it was real:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw0-JRa9n94](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw0-JRa9n94)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCVd9ZDPjXU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCVd9ZDPjXU)

------
abraae
> “This is a game we’re playing around the office right now,” reads the
> video’s description — an assertion that could not have been true.

If by "game" they meant gaming potential employees and investors, then the
assertion may well have been true.

------
bane
I always find it instructive to read glassdoor reviews about a company I'm
interested in. There's obvious astroturfing and upset people, but lots of
interesting information also leaks out there.

[https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Magic-Leap-
Reviews-E799754...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Magic-Leap-
Reviews-E799754.htm)

------
coldcode
Further behind than expected. I have always suspected that this is a giant
money pit with zero chance of success. Another decade or two and maybe
technology will catch up to the desire to understand the world around you in
real time, but today it's not possible. It's not magic, it's dreaming.

------
BinaryIdiot
Hmm interesting. So the article makes it sound like one of their faked videos
was used to bring in software developers but if they come in and it's simply
not working anywhere near the level shown, wouldn't that seem suspicious?

I don't think this necessarily means the company is a scam or anything like
that but it seems a little...suspect at least to me if I was interviewing with
them.

Curious if the community has an issue with it or not.

~~~
NuclearFishin
I can't help but have similar feelings about this, and I think your question
about whether "the community has an issue with it" is especially pertinent.

Many journalists and internet pundits suggest that Magic Leap's technology was
obviously over-hyped. See for example the title of The Verge's article. Adding
further evidence that it was too good to be true, they used faked videos to
attract software developers, as you have pointed out.

So how is it that Google, Alibaba, and Andreessen Horowitz were convinced to
hand over hundreds of millions of dollars each to this company? Was it fraud,
over-promising on behalf of Magic Leap's founders, or could these huge VC
firms not see what everyone else could see? Is it really that easy to secure a
billion dollars in funding? The question as to "what's going on here" relates
as much to the startup / VC community as it does to Magic Leap.

------
lowglow
There is a ton of AR/VR hype driven by Adobe After Effects and not real
product results. Now whenever I see AR/VR tech that follows this pattern, I
stop paying attention. It's unfortunate for the entire industry.

------
cromwellian
It's not surprising because they are not basing it on any traditional widely
manufactured components. It would be as if you promise to ship flat panel
displays before LCD production lines have even been created and LCD only
existed in the labs.

So, either it's a scam, or, they legitimately plan to create a new industry
which requires multiple years capital investment to get production off the
ground.

~~~
jobigoud
But you could build a $30K prototype and show it to investors, saying that the
cost would go down when mass production ramps up.

~~~
AstralStorm
And then not deliver on the pie in the sky promise, or delay long enough that
somebody spray solves the issues. Also known as a scam.

~~~
cromwellian
Well to be fair, it could take 10 years to go from prototype to full scale
production. People are too impatient these days.

------
russdill
(Contains mirror of article in the comments)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/magicleap/comments/5ha6kr/the_reali...](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicleap/comments/5ha6kr/the_reality_behind_magic_leap_paywalled_article/)

------
WhitneyLand
>>The company has raked in $1.4 billion in funding

Let that sink in. Is it a record for startup funding with no product or
service released? I don't recall how far along Uber was when they passed that
mark.

And what exit number do they need to be considered a success for the VCs?

~~~
CardenB
They hold the record for largest series C round, if that helps put things into
perspective

------
joezydeco
Abovitz, July 2016: _" We have Class 100 cleanrooms running now. We're
debugging a high production line this summer. We are in the go mode, soon-
ish"_

[http://www.stereoscopynews.com/hotnews/3d-technology/vr-
ar/4...](http://www.stereoscopynews.com/hotnews/3d-technology/vr-
ar/4359-magic-leap-turning-on-production-line)

[http://www.businessinsider.com/magic-leap-production-
begins-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/magic-leap-production-begins-
summer-2016-2016-6)

------
gumby
I thought they had given up a couple of years ago on the gimbal-mounted fiber
with the piezo collar. They raised the last round to buy a MEMS fab which I
assumed was to do a DLP-like thing down a fibre laminate.

~~~
gumby
And in fact the Guttag piece linked in this comment page also suggests this
(says the DLP demo was the most impressive). I doubt they could use actual DLP
(because the TI DLP group is a pain to work with) but it would make sense that
their MEMS chip would be also a micro mirror array.

~~~
JeffKang2
From Dalv-hick on reddit (Jack Hayes @Halo_AR_ltd):

>I presume they're going for something similar to what I'm building in one of
the implementations, using switching polarisation-sensitive lenses in a stack.

The other thing they mentioned and which is feasible immediately is using a
liquid lens, if the input is small.

This would be used for 45 degree combiner but too small for a waveguide exit
or for Oculus size lenses.

\---

>Building a single FSD isn't difficult.

Building a single FSD with wide deflection (more pixels) and fast oscillation
(more frames and made necessary to counteract the wider deflection) is
considerably more difficult.

Building an FSD with the previous attributes an removing jitter/ distortion is
more difficult.

Doing all the previous for an assembled array to line up perfectly is more
difficult again.

Finally doing an array, particularly a 2D array at scale, and expecting a
significant amount of them to actually work is crazy.

The FSD improvements FredzL points to are at odds with each other.

An FSD array can either use to each unit to create a different focus plane/
view or add extra pixels to the 2D resolution for any one instant of time.

One of the University of Washington papers does hint at alternative though.

In the paper it shows a fibre array (line) being placed in a thick block for
better alignment.

This would prevent the fibres being vibrated to create the image.

Instead, on a single line, of a different paper they mention trying acousto-
optic modulators.

Dennis Smalley had a good paper on the subject, in which ultrasonic waves
travelling through a class of materials will locally change the refractive
index.

Light bends by different amounts in different refractive indices, thereby
allowing the possibility of image formation.

Solid-state scanning arrays or even multiple beams on a MEMS mirror are
probably better than FSDs.

They might be able to use FSD, I don't think it's a good idea.

------
cocktailpeanuts
> $1.4 billion in funding at a valuation of $4.5 billion

Man this number doesn't look good in more than one way. Valuations aside, I'm
guessing the cumulative dilution for everyone in the company is super high

------
relfor
What is troubling about AR/MR which I feel a lot of people overlook is the
limited FOV. From the demo videos shown by Magic Leap (and Hololens) on
YouTube it feels as if the entire FOV is available, which is barely the case -
the Hololens has an FOV of 120x120 and Magic Leap is said to have a lower
angle than that. Verge covered Hololens and they mention [1] the FOV as a
limitation.

1: [https://youtu.be/4p0BDw4VHNo?t=3m](https://youtu.be/4p0BDw4VHNo?t=3m)

~~~
jobigoud
120x120°? That would be wider than VR headsets!

Unfortunately Hololens FOV is more like 30×20°. Other AR players are mostly in
the same ballpark at the moment. The good thing is that this gives very high
pixel density. The other thing is that you don't see the edges unless the 3D
render is cut off, so it may not feel as tunnelled as in VR.

------
pmoriarty
It's interesting just how many Magic Leap stories get posted to HN. In the
last month or so I must have seen at least 3 stories about Magic Leap, but no
other VR/AR technologies.

I don't even remember the last time I saw a story on HN about Oculus, or Vive,
or whatever the Sony Playstation VR product is called, nor about the Hololens.
But the Magic Leap stories are popping up like mushrooms.

~~~
dang
You'd be fine to post some :)

These things often come in clusters, though we usually penalize posts that are
from a string of copycat or follow-up posts that don't add new information. I
have the impression that this one does, though, albeit cribbed from a better
source.

~~~
pmoriarty
I'm not complaining. I just found it curious.

~~~
dang
Oh good. I fear my neurons have developed complaint-shaped receptors.

------
jonathankoren
The video of the AR game embedded in the article looks very suspicious. It's
hard to believe that's a game that actually exists, or at least exists
anywhere except that specific room. We've got depth and occlusion of objects
when the aliens come out from down the hallway, and the laser guns look like
their physical props.

I'd like it to be true, but it looks too good to be true.

------
vonnik
Can we please fix this headline to "further behind than expected"?

------
danieltillett
The whole thing sounds rather similar to everyone's favourite black turtleneck
wearing entrepreneur.

~~~
scott_karana
Sounds like the opposite.

All of Apple's most successful products were developed mainly rumour-free (and
certainly hype-free) behind closed doors, popping suddenly into the world at
WWDC or similar.

~~~
danieltillett
I wasn't referring to Steve, but the CEO of a far more recent fallen unicorn.

~~~
scott_karana
Gotcha. Thanks for the correction

------
aub3bhat
Having used Microsoft HoloLens for more than a month. Microsoft is doing a
disservice to a great product by dropping the ball on HoloLens compatible
games & software. It has potential to greatly transform gaming. It ought to
start dropping the price and releasing more titles.

~~~
partiallypro
I have also used HoloLens, and Microsoft is not targeting gamers right now.
They want engineers etc, corporations and universities with deep pockets. IMO
the FoV is too narrow for the consumer market/gamers at this time. It is
perfect for what they are aiming at right now though.

~~~
aub3bhat
Microsoft is surely targeting gamers, they showed Robo Raid during the
presentation, including even an unreleased version of Minecraft. Robo Raid &
Fragments are way more polished and utilize significantly more capabilities of
HoloLens compared to any other app.

------
Geekette
An archive of the original report cited in this post:
[http://archive.is/DHVL1](http://archive.is/DHVL1)

------
Tosh108
Interesting to see that everyone here is so eager to assume that the article
is right. The article might be right, but it's also just gossip.

~~~
pavlov
The Information is a highly respected source, and the story was written by
Reed Albergotti:

[https://www.theinformation.com/reporters/reed-
albergotti](https://www.theinformation.com/reporters/reed-albergotti)

It's investigative journalism, not gossip.

~~~
obj-g
Maybe, but it's still full of speculation.

~~~
pavlov
Everything in The Information's article seems sourced to me. Some of the
sources are "former employees" or similarly vague, but the reporter had an
actual demonstration of Magic Leap's latest and greatest.

------
hoodoof
I don't want my living room as the backdrop for games - it's kind of a mess at
the moment.

I want to be taken OUT of the real world to a virtual world.

Seems a dumb idea to be displaying stuff onto my living room.

Outside things, maybe that different - as Pokemon go has proven.

~~~
scott_karana
Has Pokemon Go really?

The "AR" is extremely limit and I strongly suspect most players turn it off,
other than to get occasional brag/joke photos.

~~~
OJFord
> _[Pokemon Go 's] "AR" is extremely limit and I strongly suspect most players
> turn it off_

Wandering around the real world with it gamified on your mobile phone _is_
augmented reality. You can turn off the camera, but not AR.

------
KaoruAoiShiho
Jeez this sucks. I was always behind Magic Leap with the logic that "big
investors like a16z google alibaba wouldn't get suckered" but god, :( this is
disappointing.

~~~
gumby
> I was always behind Magic Leap with the logic that "big investors like a16z
> google alibaba wouldn't get suckered"

Here's a few clarifications that might change your thinking about funding
announcements.

Google Ventures passed on Magic Leap. Google Capital passed on Magic Leap.
Sergey was enamored so Google's own balance sheet provided most of the B
round. Word is that A16Z put only $3MM in -- basically enough to get some info
rights and not piss google off.

~~~
argonaut
This is very interesting. Do you have a source on this? I can't find anything
online.

~~~
gumby
Nobody I will quote in a forum(!) but I live in silicon valley where secrecy
is poor.

If you want to look on the web it's not hard to verify if you're willing to do
more than just a google query. For example you can easily tell from the web
sites of GV and GC that ML is not in either of their portfolios. I can't find
any Form D for magic leap but you can see what some of their investors put in
if you dredge some of those non-googleable-but-public databases.

They're a Theranos if you ask me.

~~~
argonaut
Yes it's quite obvious GV and Gcap are not in Magic Leap. But it doesn't mean
they _passed_ on Magic Leap. It could've been that Google Corp told them to
back out because they were doing it alone. Speculation of course, but hard to
tell.

------
vorotato
Actual title should be "Magic leap lied about a video demonstration of its
tech". Or Magic Leap still noticeably inferior to the Microsoft Hololens

------
fmihaila
I don't like pointing out typos, but this one is in the title and should be
fixed: it should be "than".

~~~
tempestn
Or even better, change the title to that of the actual article: "Magic Leap is
actually way behind, like we always suspected it was". That doesn't appear too
long for a HN title.

~~~
dang
Not too long, but it's baity, so we need to change it as per the site
guidelines
([https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)).
We'll see what we can do.

Edit: ok, we changed it to language from the first sentence—often a source of
lesser baitiness.

------
melvinmt
*than

~~~
boardwaalk
Even then it doesn't sound like natural English.

I'm not sure why the original title didn't suffice.

------
Animats
So what happens to the CEO? Does he get fired? Charged with fraud? Tarred and
feathered? Given a pistol with one round and expected to do the honorable
thing?

------
soneca
Wow, people are quick to upvote news when it is something that everyone likes
do agree. Kind of like facebook. Personally, I found this article with as much
little substance as the ones hyping ML.

Sites hunting clicks on both sides and we are providing it.

~~~
frozenport
Indeed, but one of the issues is that HN has grown a lot. Five years ago an
article with 100 votes was noteworthy, not so much today.

