
EU safety agency suspends Pakistani airlines' European authorisation - 8bitsrule
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-airlines-eu/eu-safety-agency-suspends-pakistani-airlines-european-authorisation-for-six-months-idUSKBN2412MT
======
_-___________-_
The article makes only a passing reference to the recent crash, but serious
pilot error ("incompetence on an astonishing scale" might be a better phrase
than "error") appears to be a major factor in it.
[http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0](http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0)

~~~
thepangolino
The fact that nearly a third of Pakistani pilots are known to have a fake
license might have something to do with it. [https://www.msn.com/en-
us/news/world/nearly-a-third-of-pakis...](https://www.msn.com/en-
us/news/world/nearly-a-third-of-pakistan-e2-80-99s-pilots-are-flying-with-
fake-licenses-and-e2-80-98don-e2-80-99t-have-flying-experience/ar-BB15YA63)

~~~
sfjailbird
This was very overblown in the media. The issue was with re-certifications
after changes to regulations in 2012, with most pilots (many with decades of
experience) apparently preferring a bribe rather than cramming for months for
the re-certification exam.

Still bad but it's not just random people off the street flying 777s.

~~~
chrisseaton
> many with decades of experience

The article says that’s not the case.

> He added those pilots “don’t have flying experience.”

------
Jdam
If this doesn't apply to the UK as well, it is not enough. I would like to see
a flyover ban as well, as PIA flies through the EU to the UK.

I'm following the aviation industry closely and there are plenty of reports
every now and then where PIA flights don't respond on radio anymore,
triggering fighter intercepts. It is assumed that those pilots are oftentimes
either sleeping or just don't bother because of their ego, which was built in
their former careers as military pilots.

I don't want to have PIA planes crashing into others or falling on my head.

~~~
Bobbcatt
>I don't want to have PIA planes crashing into others or falling on my head.

Even with sleeping pilots, you still are order of magnitude more likely to die
by a car than by a plane.

~~~
dividedbyzero
I guess that's technically correct, but it seems a little pointless; with
sufficient negligence, accidents are a virtual certainty, and those who come
to harm in such an event would find little solace in that knowledge.

In that sense, I don't want PIA planes falling on my own or anyone else's
head, land, or property, anywhere in the world.

There's no reason to allow pilots and airlines to behave like that, and lots
of reasons to sanction them very harshly if they do. After all, who's to
believe they're current on their maintenance if they can't even make sure
pilots respond when hailed?

~~~
ClumsyPilot
I think the real danger is to passengers of the plane. It is very rare for a
plane crash to kill anyone on the ground.

Noth of earth surface is not cities, its water/farmland/etc

~~~
iso1210
More common than you'd think as most crashes are on takeoff or landing, which
tend to be in more built up areas.

~~~
occamrazor
We are discussing high altitude flyovers here.

~~~
iso1210
Exceptionally unlikey a pilot would be able to crash a plane at 30,000 foot.
Far more likely that a medical emergency would lead to a pilot landing at an
unfamiliar airport and crashing the plane into block of houses.

------
pycbr1
Hope the world never finds out how we get our driver's license.

~~~
robin_reala
They know already. A perennial topic of annoyance for US immigrants in Sweden
is that their US licence is only valid for a year here, then they have to
retake their test (unlike immigrants from the EU who get to convert theirs
automatically).

~~~
Svip
Germany restricts US driving licences depending on issuing US state.

Denmark is apparently far more willing to let it slide, and anyone with a US
driving licence can get it converted to a Danish one with just a doctor's
approval. Although, in Denmark, their US licence is only valid for a month.
But you don't have to retake the test. I am frankly a bit puzzled by this
decision.

~~~
ohlookabird
This seems to be the current list of rules for non EU countries and US states
to transfer the driver's license to the German one after six months (linked by
ADAC):
[https://res.cloudinary.com/adacde/image/upload/v1572337531/A...](https://res.cloudinary.com/adacde/image/upload/v1572337531/ADAC-
eV/KOR/Text/PDF/staatenliste-nicht-eu-land-umtausch-fuehrerschein_v2ag0f.pdf)

After having lived 5+ years in Virginia in the US and knowing multiple people
that got their driver's license in Virginia, I am really surprised that
apparently people with Virginia issued driver's licenses don't need to do a
theory nor a practice test in Germany to get the German license. From what I
have been told there was no official driving school/education required in
Virginia, neither in theory nor in practice. People could just show up for the
tests. And at least the practice test was ridiculous: I drove a friend to his
test and after 10min of circling around the DMV building the test was done.
And consequently people drive really bad (at least in the NoVa region). No one
knew anybody who failed the tests. This is all to say the Germany as well is
willing to let it slide to a larger extent than I expected.

For comparison, to even register for theory and practice tests in Germany you
need to have taken at least 12 90min lessons for the basics and 2 additional
90min lessons for extra topics, all in official driving schools. For the
practice test you need at least 12 times 90min driving hours (5 regular roads,
4 autobahn, 3 at night). In average students take 15 practice hours. It is not
so uncommon that people fail at theory or practice tests.

~~~
biztos
That list is missing some US states. Any idea why?

~~~
netsharc
It just list the states where one or both exams (theory, practical) are
required (column 2 or 3 has "ja") or exempted ("nein"). If a state is missing
(like California), a Cali licence holder needs to take both exams to get their
licence converted to a German one.

I'm not sure if they'd have to do the whole driving school (there are
mandatory 12 hours one has to drive in Germany, with a driving teacher), or if
they can just pass the exams and get a German licence.

Interestingly, Switzerland converts all US licences with no exam requirements.
I wonder if someone can move there, get their licence converted, and then move
to Germany and convert their Swiss licence to a German one...

------
AdamJacobMuller
good commentary on blancolirio
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G62sSwC4t_g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G62sSwC4t_g)
as usual

~~~
redis_mlc
I watched the video - fair coverage.

The importance of being on top of licenses and other paperwork is that if you
can't get the paperwork right, how can you get the rest right?

Some other notables:

\- India has identical fake license problems as Pakistan

\- South Korea has CRM and sim evaluation issues with ex-military crews
(resulting in the SFO crash)

\- SFO has struggled with ILS maintenance in the past decade. (Foreign air
crews expect to do ILS approaches, not visuals. See SK SFO accident above.)

\- African operators have problems with cabin crews opening doors after
landing during taxi to let thieves steal luggage, etc. as the airliner is
moving!

\- Australia had an issue with drug smugglers accessing luggage. Hope that's
resolved.

\- Philippines had an issue with airport staff inserting bullets into luggage,
then extorting tourists. Resolved after numerous news reports.

~~~
t0mas88
The SFO case is interesting, because it's not just "foreign crews don't like
visual approaches". It's because the US is commonly using visual approaches
kind of as a loophole to reduce separation. All major carriers require that
crews use the ILS (or RNAV) as a backup to a visual approach if it's
available. But by clearing for a visual approach the controller is no longer
required to keep the planes on approach separated.

I know a few European airlines that encourage their crews not to accept visual
approaches in the US and request an ILS approach instead, because it's safer.

Europe has solved the same "we need more planes per hour" problem by allowing
a reduced 2.5nm separation when both planes are established in the localizer
and are radar monitored by the controller.

As a pilot I prefer the European way, because it's more structured and has a
few more safeguards. The US method puts the problem with the pilot, who has
far worse means to judge separation than the controller

~~~
nitrogen
_far worse means to judge separation than the controller_

Those cockpit windows don't seem like they provide the best view... Out of
curiosity, do civilian aircraft have onboard radar? If so, what directions can
it see (up/down/front/back/sides)?

~~~
dmurray
Yes, it's the TCAS. It sees in all directions. It's secondary radar so it only
sees planes with a transponder, but that's usually all of them.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_sy...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system)

~~~
tialaramex
> It's secondary radar so it only sees planes with a transponder, but that's
> usually all of them.

In particular we're talking here about aeroplanes on an approach to a major
airport (if they aren't on approach then by definition they aren't choosing
between ILS and a visual clearance, and if it isn't a major airport why are we
trying to bunch them up more?).

All US major airports have a "Mode C veil" which means there's a regulation
requiring aircraft near those airports to have transponders ("Mode C" is a
transponder mode in which the aircraft reports its own assessment of its
altitude based on air pressure as well as a four octal identifier).

~~~
bencoder
Since January 1st 2020 the requirement is for ADS-B out. So they will be
reporting their GPS position also, now.

------
goatinaboat
Playing devils advocate but if PIA pilots really are that bad why wasn’t the
accreditation of the certifying authorities withdrawn long ago? What I mean is
why didn’t this show up before in the accident statistics? Or were the Western
aviation authorities turning a blind eye to it and their hands are now forced
by this public revelation?

If civil engineers in a particular country were all fraudulent and buildings
were collapsing that would surely be noticed. Or fraudulent surgeons and
people dying.

------
throwaway_12351
Does anyone have a good reference to competition vs compliance in the airline
industry? US has a very competitive airline industry, and hence the incentives
for regulations seems to be quite high.

On one hand, since Pakistan has a small fleet (60 planes across 3 airlines per
wikipedia), I would assume it's highly competitive and there isn't any room
for error/bribing. It's also possible that it's very competitive so not much
incentive to invest time in getting a license?

It's also quite odd that Pakistan has really stagnant airline industry while
almost all other economies have growing airline transporation. It was 9.63Mn
in 2016, and down to 6.88Mn in 2018. Per
[https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Pakistan/Airline_passengers...](https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Pakistan/Airline_passengers/).

~~~
baybal2
Heavily subsidised gulf carriers (many of which were founded by ex-PIA
cadres...) have ate the lunch of the few Pakistani private carriers. PIA used
to be nation's pride from its better days, so it's politically hard to rectify
it when people with statist sentiment now run the establishment.

Just like Pakrail, and PSM, PIA will be kept afloat, and safe away from
privatisation.

Khan's administration took down Sharif, and Punjabi old money people, now come
Pathan old money people, and people with even stronger conviction that having
a state job legitimately entitles them to run state companies like a family
business.

~~~
Answerawake
Just out of curiosity. How has Kahn done in your opinion. I don't follow the
news too much but I am curious. It just seems like with Pakistan it is
impossible to get an objective unbiased opinion anywhere of how things are
really going.

~~~
baybal2
> Just out of curiosity. How has Kahn done in your opinion.

Mixed feelings. He cleaned up the state... a bit. People rightfully raise his,
and his officers' lacklustre execution skills. Just like two previous
establishments, Khan too bogged down in networks of local elites, and old
money people with whom he did horsetrading in order for PTI to come to power.
At least, unlike the previous leaders, he recognises it as a problem.

He came to power on the promise of undoing the system of clan elites
dominating the country, but that's kind of hard to do when your own
lieutenants, and backers are made of the same elites...

Pakistan is effectively split in between three huge ethnocentric elites,
Sindhi/Seraiki Bhutto dynasty, Punjabi Sharif, and Pathan Khan. Pathan elites
were prominent with military, hence Khan's coming to power. And there is a
strong statist culture, where state companies used to provide the most
lucrative jobs in the country. And there is a culture where people believe
that being made a boss is a fully legitimate entitlement to run a state
company/ministry/corporate unit like a family business, and there is nothing
wrong with that.

A huge generational struggle is happening with people who want to end it vs.
ones who don't.

The a massive brain drain that Pakistan experienced after Zia's coup, and mass
immigration of anybody of talent will take years to reverse, and undo the
negative selection effect.

