
Behind League of Legends, E-Sports’s Main Attraction - murtali
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/technology/riot-games-league-of-legends-main-attraction-esports.html
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jjcm
While LoL is by far the more popular game, I find what Valve is doing with
Dota to be more interesting. They're heavily investing in the spectator
portion of the sport, and it's paying off in spades. They've added in the
ability to watch replays, see instant-replays during live games (especially
useful when the casters miss a battle off screen), see post-battle stats, and
view player analytics all in-client.

The article mentions that Riot lost money in hosting The World Championship,
but during The International (the Dota 2 equivalent), Valve made over $30
million from selling interactive playbills for the tournament. Twitch has
become a huge part of the events as well, but I think it's telling that Valve
is strategically moving forward with trying to make viewing the game just as
important as playing the game. Esports as a spectator sport is definitely
going to become much bigger moving forward (LoL's World Championship already
has more viewers than baseball's World Series, and in Dota 2 to win more money
than a superbowl winner you'd only have to take third place in The
International). I suspect that we'll see Esports taking over physical sports
in terms of numbers in the next decade or so.

~~~
tprynn
I agree that Riot could do more with the spectator experience, but you should
be careful comparing Valve's International profits with Riot's Championship
Series. For one, the cost of Riot's esports push encompasses the entire scene,
around the world. Riot pays player salaries for the players on every
professional team in their sponsored series, which have tournaments and
matches pretty much every week throughout the year. They have these series in
North America, Europe, South America, SE Asia, Korea, China, and Australia,
each with many teams of five players each. So, with an armchair estimation,
it's easy to see how just the cost of those salaries without any benefits
could be in the tens of millions. Then you have to factor in the support
staff, facilities, equipment, travel, and much more. Valve sponsors one single
tournament a year, and offsets the cost by selling interactive features.
Ultimately, they are just different models and I think both could learn from
each other.

~~~
duskwuff
On the other hand, Riot's tournaments account for most of the LoL pro scene.
There are tournament games of DotA 2 going on almost constantly, but they're
being run by independent sponsors, not by Valve.

~~~
Blackthorn
This used to be the case in League too back in Season 2 (so a bit over two
years ago), that it is no longer the case is very much by design.

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sciguy77
I've been to LoL HQ and talked to the founders. The offices were fairly
dungeon-esque (to be fair I mostly saw the lower levels), but all the
employees seemed to be having a blast. I asked one of the founders about LoL
being considered a sport, and he argued fairly aggressively in favor of it. He
asked me if I considered NASCAR a sport. I said no, and the conversation ended
there.

~~~
buerkle
I never considered car racing much of a sport until I drove an indy style car
with Mario Andretti Racing Experience. 8 minutes on the track driving 160mph
with about 6-7 other cars was mentally and physically exhausting. Had an
absolute blast and afterwards a much greater respect for car racing.

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waterlesscloud
E-sports betting is where the real money making opportunity is.

Of course, finding the way to do it legally (in the US at least) is the big
challenge.

~~~
Omniusaspirer
It's already started (csgolounge) to get big to mixed results- very popular
but also very controversial.

~~~
bigdubs
There actually is kind of a history with betting and CS; the meme "bet t all"
and a picture of a swat policeman petting a cat references this.

Basically pre-round or mid round you could bet some of your in game currency
on a side winning. This let you recoup lost money which you could use to buy
guns etc. the next round.

I always thought it was just a fun addition to the game but if you did it real
time, round by round, with real money it could be cool too.

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h43z
What I like about LoL is that it combines the right amout of knowledge, skill,
tactics and teamwork to be successful. You can get into the game quite quickly
and have fun on a lower level but also play it intensivly without reaching any
kind of horizon because the game constantly changes. And riot also provides
you with an api
[https://developer.riotgames.com/](https://developer.riotgames.com/)

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cjslep
Their commitment to community is what really kept me hooked in the early
years. Nikita (Nikasaur) interacting with the fan-made material was really
cool. Having staff interact with players (ex Shurelia) in a way that isn't
constrained (like CCP Games and EVE) also kept me playing unlike any other
sort of marketing technique.

It all ultimately inspired me to enter into their first community contest (LoL
Logo Lookout photo), and it is the only public contest I've ever entered
online. Last I heard those entries are still hanging in the office somewhere.

I no longer play, as I got sensible about my time. But really, their
commitment to their community is something I still respect from the opposite
coast.

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KhalilK
Funny how LoL is what got me into programming (Lua).

~~~
heyheyhey
SC:BW got me into programming. Rigging UMS maps with triggers that only I knew
of...ahh good times.

~~~
austinz
When I was in middle school, I thought SC's trigger-based map editor was the
most amazing thing ever. I even built a four-mission mini campaign that I
showed my friends, who promptly told me that it sucked. (It was actually
pretty terrible, although fun to make.) That, and collecting UMS maps and
putting them on my GeoCities page.

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Cyranix
I no longer play, but I still watch the pro teams from time to time. One of
the things that has impressed me the most about Riot's approach has been their
willingness to make dramatic modifications to core game mechanics in an effort
to keep games exciting for both players and spectators.

An example that indicates the difference between last year's world
championship games and this year's is the ward system. Wards are items that a
player can place near their current location, invisible to the enemy team, to
gain vision into the fog of war, which is vital for decreasing risk in map-
wide coordinated team strategies. Under the old system, pro teams often bogged
down during the mid- and late-game phases as they vied for map vision
superiority, and the only viable strategy was to purchase as many of the
superior ward type (pink, with green being inferior) as possible and equip at
least one player with a long-term ability to see invisible elements. Under the
new system, both green and pink wards are valuable — the former are invisible
to enemies and time-limited, the latter are visible to enemies but can detect
invisible elements and are not time-limited — and all players have access to a
periodic ability to place an extra ward or shut down enemy wards. As a result,
the action in this year's matches has been much more consistent, as teams can
still angle for vision control without losing momentum.

Just today, I saw some rough notes
([http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-
gamepla...](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-
feedback/9dG0ndq0-rough-notes-pbe)) on changes being tested in public beta.
The scope of changes is massive! Starting stats, behavior of towers, and the
range of temporary buffs are all on the table for a major revamp. It would be
really easy for Riot to resist improving their game under the excuse of "this
is the way we've always done it", but they continue to push and innovate from
within. A great example of keeping a startup mentality alive within an
established company!

=====

On another note more closely related to the posted article: for anyone that
doesn't already watch pro-level League of Legends and is interested based on
this article, you can follow the remainder of the current world championship
matches through [http://na.lolesports.com](http://na.lolesports.com) — the
next best-of-five between two Samsung-sponsored teams should be very exciting.
Past matches are available via
[http://na.lolesports.com/vods/league/worlds](http://na.lolesports.com/vods/league/worlds)
and I would highly recommend the Fnatic vs. OMG game from the group stages
(direct link:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O345c46mFqY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O345c46mFqY)).

~~~
sliverstorm
I don't know if you are familiar with DoTA, but can you comment on why DoTA
doesn't seem to have the problem with games stalling as players fight for
vision control? I believe the DoTA ward model is very similar to the original
LoL ward model.

~~~
cheepin
Vision choices are more limited, access to team stealth is just an item away.

However, I would say that Dota still has a problem with stalling, maybe even
more than League of Legends. There are often one-sided games that drag on for
quite a long time before the winning team has a decisive enough advantage to
actually finish the game. This comes from a few features, foremost 'buyback'
which lets players come back from the dead before their timer expires for a
fee, which means that even if you kill their entire team inside their base,
unless you have the force to kill them all again, you usually cannot take any
ground.

~~~
sondr3
Which is what I like about Dota, with LoL it's usually blatantly obvious who
will win by the 10 minute mark but it's not so much so with Dota. Obviously
stomps happen and the team that leads at 10 more often than not wins but it
doesn't feel as loop sided as LoL does.

~~~
jamesaguilar
I have heard this view, but is it actually supported by the data? That is, do
comebacks happen with any significant frequency in high-level DotA?

For example, in all of the finals of the recent International, there was a
leader at 10m who won the game. I'm not going to go through all the games and
check, but I'd guess we'd find this to be true the vast majority of the time
in professional DotA games, as it is in League games.

Not to make too sweeping of a generalization, but I expect it is inherent in
games with an economy and relatively low random factors. On top of the normal
expectation that who gains a lead is likely to be more skilled, economies that
allow you to build additional strength via the dominance conferred by your
current strength reinforce existing leads.

~~~
chc
AFAIK the "deathball" strategy recently became really dominant leading up to
The International. The most recent balance patch after The International
included a lot of measures to swing it back the other direction.

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jokoon
I played long hours of counter strike, warcraft 3, wow, quake, starcraft 2,
and I never liked the original dota map nor LoL.

I just think it's a bad mix of several games. The level format doesn't make a
lot of sense. It has the disadvantages of a RTS while being some sort of a RPG
(little or no persistence), doesn't have a solo mode, and doesn't even allow
to control more than 1 unit. It's slow and boring. The content is quite ugly
and the gameplay comes straight out of wc3.

The creep system is weird, unusual and just irrational.

LoL is a frank success because other games failed to capitalize on esport. But
LoL is not a game I like to play at all.

I wish that in the future companies like id, valve and blizzard will be able
to better orient their quality game towards more esport while satisfying
gamers from all spectrums: the casual gamers like the one who like to spend
time doing matches. Blizzard found a great balance between the two, but to me
there's so much more to be done.

~~~
VonGuard
One of the reasons people find DOTA-likes so unlikeable is the incredibly
steep learning curve. It is often said that you know nothing about LoL or DOTA
until you've played 1000 games. At around 45 minutes a pop, that means you've
got to commit way more time than most people have available in order to get
good.

The games are more like basketball than Quake. 5 on 5, and if 1 player on a
team is bad, that team will probably lose. It's why the communities in MOBAs
can be so toxic.

~~~
Dewie
It's steep if you can consider a tall cliff _steep_.

Warcraft 3 has a steep learning curve, like RTS games do in general. One
mistake can cost you your hero, which can cost you your hero if the death is
untimely. (I guess DotA derivatives are more forgiving in that sense.) But
there aren't that many units and heroes to learn, so at least after some time
you won't be taken completely aback when your hero gets ensnared, critical
striked (struck?) hexed and then critical striked again. I mean, it _will_
happen, but the possibility would have already crossed your mind.

There is a ton of finesse and micro to playing a game like WC3, but learning
to play the game isn't _that_ hard; there isn't terribly much that you need to
memorize, and then you can concentrate on strategy and mechanics. DotA
(derivatives), on the other hand, is built in such a way as to be absolutely
relentless towards anyone who isn't already experienced.

WC3 is hard to learn, but not unreasonably so for an RTS. It also has a high
skill ceiling. DotA (derivatives) are really hard to learn (I won't comment on
the skill ceiling, since I don't know). Yet, people - casual players included
- have embraced DotA over the humble original game. I just don't understand
the attraction, particularly when it comes to the more casual players.

~~~
hibikir
To be any good at WC3, you need major micromanagement skills: Blizzard games
are what brought us concepts like actions per second after all. It's a bit
easier in that respect than Starcraft, but still, it's really about
multitasking and micromanagement.

You need a lot of knowledge to play Dota well, but you do not need that
micromanagement: Pick a simple hero, like Wraith King, and you control a
single character with a single active ability. Even top pros take less actions
per second than an average warcraft player.

This difference in skills means that it's much easier to notice your own
progress in DotA than in WC3. I watch a top DotA player, and I can see how I
can get to be that good. If I look at a top RTS player, I realize I could not
get that good if I spent a hundred years training.

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Kiro
LoL and DotA seem to be the same game except that you can't deny in LoL,
making it more casual. Am I wrong?

~~~
MrJagil
That is not a very substantive comment. Seems like you're just baiting for a
flame war.

