
Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016) - DiabloD3
http://www.vox.com/2015/7/21/8974435/switzerland-work-life-balance
======
manarth
Deja-vu.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13303544](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13303544)

~~~
manarth
And in 2015 (although that source article has since disappeared):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816)

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csomar
In my opinion this is missing an important thing: Does the Swiss model scale?

For example, the Singapore model can't scale. It's based on rich people and
corporations arbitraging the international fiscal system. You can't have
another Singapore without having another East Asia and West with it.

Swiss is definitively a privileged place that is benefiting from the overall
wealth of Europe and many other countries. We can't have the niceties they are
having unless we have huge leaps in overall productivity around the world.

Edit: To explain my point further. Let's say you have a Swiss watch factory
that is relaying on export for 90% of its production. With this money it can
afford hiring top researchers and paying very high wages even for low-skill
positions. This wouldn't be possible if there wasn't a huge market to product
this luxury good for (Europe, US and Asia).

~~~
sleavey
There's no reason why it can't scale, but one problem in implementing this
kind of system is convincing the population to accept higher taxes (and Swiss
taxes are, overall, still significantly higher than the US despite what the
article seems to make out). It is, ultimately a case of the government taking
more of your personal wealth to provide services to society as a whole, which
flies in stark contrast to the traditional US approach.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _There 's no reason why it can't scale_

I grew up in Switzerland. Nobody checked if we bought metro tickets. Everyone
bought them. The only people I remember being little shits about it were
tourists. Cultural norms do not informally enforce themselves at scale--you
need institutions, and those institutions cost money and freedom.

~~~
mkaziz
Disagree. As an immigrant to the US, I see many cultural norms that the US has
(at scale, despite heterogeneous population) that were bizarrely foreign to
me, but that I (and other immigrants like me) quickly picked up on and
developed.

Examples: (good) giving pedestrians right of way when driving, stopping at
stop signs, holding the door open for people (bad) empty small talk
conversations used to fill silences with casual acquaintances.

------
johanbrook
The U.S. is very behind many European countries in the work-life balance
department. It's kinda surprising that America – with its liberal policies for
private companies – is so backwards when it comes to caring about their
employees.

The points in the article could apply to policies/norms in Sweden as well.
Here, we get _at least_ 4 weeks of paid vacation per year, as well as some
insurances and a very generous parental leave (1 year for each parent).

~~~
robert_foss
> The points in the article could apply to policies/norms in Sweden as well.
> Here, we get at least 4 weeks of paid vacation per year

No, mandatory EU minimums enforce at least 5 weeks of vacation.

~~~
bosie
do you happen to know how 'vacation' is defined? would it include national
holidays?

~~~
hedwall
It does not.

~~~
bosie
Fair. Seems like it isn't 5 but 4 weeks that is mandatory in the EU.

~~~
robert_foss
It's 5 + national holidays.

~~~
bosie
I am not doubting you though when i tried to look it up I found the EU
requirement to be 20 days + national holidays (e.g. ireland, italy, Czech
Republic,...). How would this be allowed if the EU requires 25 days?

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deedubaya
I used to work for the US HQ for a Swiss owned company. I worked in both
offices on occasion with close interaction with both Swiss and American
employees (I'm American).

This article is very spot on. What it doesn't mention much of, however, is the
difference in what happens during working time. In a typical US office
setting, water cooler talk, filing meaningless reports, etc is common. You'll
probably have a guy who you're not really sure what he does. You simply don't
see much of that in Swiss offices (at in my limited experiences, I'm sure
there are exceptions). When it was time to work it was time to Fucking Work.
If you're not adding value it is looked down upon. In the US, you kinda just
shrug and go back to filing your TPS report.

~~~
dennisnedry
This is true for large corporations, but smaller startups that is not the
case. Smaller companies have everybody wearing multiple hats. Nobody sits
around, and if they do, it's time to ask them to leave.

~~~
st3v3r
Not really. Startups can have people coasting along as well.

------
quotemstr
I don't want a work-life balance.

Sure, the Swiss model is very attractive for a person in a certain phase of
life with a certain attitude toward work --- one for whom work is something
_distinct_ from life.

Me? I want the freedom to pour myself into something I love. I'd rather spend
60 hours per week using all of my faculties to produce something worthwhile
than to spend 35 or 40 hours just trading my time for money, doing something I
have to force myself to do, even if I can go swim with the swans on my break.

I've seen people use the concept of "work-life balance" as an excuse to
propose caps on the impact a single developer can have. These people want to
live in a Harrison Bergeron world where _my_ work beyond 40 hours wouldn't
count so that _they_ don't feel pressed to work more than 40 hours a week. I
couldn't be more opposed.

When I'm doing something I love, I always think about ways I can do it better.
When I'm doing something I hate, no amount of work-life balance will
compensate.

~~~
_nalply
Nothing prevents you to pour yourself into something in Switzerland.

~~~
liveoneggs
I think having bones prevents this.

------
cven714
Slightly off topic, but the beauty of Switzerland was such a stark contrast to
where I grew up in New Jersey that it almost made me angry. All these people,
going about their daily lives in Switzerland seemingly oblivious to the fairy-
tale landscape around them!

~~~
chrisper
Remember that people get used to the environment. People who live in the Bay
Area don't care about the Golden Gate Bridge for example.

~~~
throwaway91111
For someone out of the area, what's the big deal? I much prefer the mackinac
bridge for the sights AND the bridge itself.

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petercooper
_But in Switzerland, my husband 's company gave employees six weeks of
vacation a year._

And yet, I find people get used to it and consider it normal rather than a
great thing. I give my employees 36 days of paid vacation per year (7.2 weeks)
and, yep, got complaints the other day when I suggested making December 22nd a
mandatory holiday day(!) :-)

~~~
nwomack
I think the complaint here (if I understand you correctly) is that you are
giving a vacation day and then making a certain day mandatory to use it. This
practice is common among companies and extremely infuriating and in my opinion
should be illegal. Better to have 35 days paid and make december 22nd a
company holiday.

~~~
mrweasel
It's not that uncommon to include "company holidays" in "paid days off".
Denmark has that as well, I get 5 weeks of vacation, and 5 days of
vacation/days-off. My employer is free to "spend" the 5 days for me.

~~~
myhrvold
Seems like in this case, how the company originally presents what you're
getting matters. So, as you point out here, qualifying the # of days off w/
days that are set [that count as part of that allotment] would set
expectations accordingly. Otherwise, still a good deal, but employees would
feel misled if they want to use it other parts of the year.

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germinalphrase
While this sounds lovely, can anyone with experience speak to the difficulty
of finding sponsored work in Switzerland?

For instance, my wife is a social worker in the U.S. and speaks conversational
German - but this is not likely to be considered a "high need" type of job for
which a company would hire a foreign worker.

~~~
louisswiss
As a non-EU/Swiss citizen you can only be employed in Switzerland if the
company can demonstrate that no suitable EU/Swiss candidates could be found
for the job role.

Exactly how this works I am not too sure, but anecdotally it is very difficult
unless you are in top-management or a highly specialised field.

~~~
marktucker
That's just to get the work visa. If you are married to a Swiss, for example,
and get a visa via family reunion, companies can employ you without having to
make this argument.

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hueving
"Being rich ruined me for being poor and its lousy perks."

~~~
st3v3r
You say that as if the US is a poor country. It's not. There's no reason
whatsoever that we couldn't have what Switzerland has, other than some
assholes at the top see it as an impediment to their having all of the money.

~~~
hueving
>There's no reason whatsoever that we couldn't have what Switzerland has,
other than some assholes at the top see it as an impediment to their having
all of the money.

There are lots of reasons the countries are nothing alike.

For one, Swiss immigration is very picky so they just choose highly skilled
immigrants to avoid having to deal with unskilled poor people.

Second, the population density is about 5 times that of the US so it's very
easy to focus on public transportation because so many more people get value
out of each dollar spent.

Third, Switzerland gets the benefit of paying very little for the military by
taking a very nationalistic stance and avoiding involvement in conflicts
regardless of the atrocities . Criticizing the US for its imperialism is
definitely fair game, but you can't pretend it doesn't cost money when it
comes time to compare what a country can offer its citizens.

------
jeffdavis
Comparisons between the US and European countries are often useless. Either
they pick a rich European country that has restricted immigration for a long
time, or they say "Western Europe" while ignoring many of the countries in
Western Europe that have some real challenges (like unemployment).

Germany or the UK might be reasonable comparison points. Not perfect, of
course (still huge differences), but it's much more likely that there is a
real lesson somewhere.

~~~
hedwall
Swedens is quite similar and has (until recently) had a very liberal
immigraiton policy.

~~~
jeffdavis
Sweden population 9.5M, less than 3% the size of US polulation.

I'm glad they are so happy with their country, but not sure if it scales 30X.
And regardless of policy, I suspect the actual immigration numbers (and
affluence of immigrants) is much different than the US.

------
bsn54
Very nice article.I wish every country followed the swiss way of work life
balance!

~~~
geodel
I would especially exhort India and Bangladesh to work on this with highest
priority.

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musha68k
Somewhat expected in the more conservative midwest (the author is comparing
her Zürich experience with living in Chicago) but apparently "unlimited
vacation" seems to become increasingly common in the Bay Area at least.

~~~
PaulRobinson
I have a former colleague that on looking for a new role was offered
"unlimited vacation".

He asked what the limit was. "Unlimited", they replied. "Honestly?", he
ventured. "Yes, unlimited".

"OK, then", he said, "I'd like to book the entire year off".

"Oh no, you can't do that!", they replied.

"I thought so. So what's the limit?", he asked again. "There is no limit",
they replied. "But you just said I couldn't have a year off", he pointed out.
"It has to be reasonable", they said.

This went back and forth. In the end "unlimited holiday" in the UK for this
firm was 28 days. That is the statutory legal minimum in the UK. If he went
over this, it would likely be accepted at the time, but "noticed" in
performance/salary reviews, etc.

So, in short, unlimited vacation is a con, and you should try the above
yourself. It'll lead to an interesting conversation, although it may harm your
chances of getting an offer if you time it wrong.

~~~
geodel
I agree. I think of it more of flexible working arrangement. I work for 60-80
hrs/week for urgent releases and then disappeared for a month, maybe repeat
this multiple time in an year. In traditional company it would be 40 hr / week
and no month long vacations. In worse companies 60 hr/ week still no month
long vacations.

------
camperman
There's another factor here that hasn't been mentioned: Switzerland is only a
couple of hundred kilometres across. That makes a difference when it comes to
public transport and other infrastructure like broadband. I laugh when I see
case studies about high-speed broadband in Europe. Europe is small. If you put
my country on top of Europe, the south-westernmost city would be in Portugal
and the northernmost in Estonia. And the US is even bigger.

------
Arizhel
Any time I meet or hear about someone like this, who comes back to the US
after living in western Europe, I really have to wonder about them. Especially
this one: she's just complaining a lot about life in America not being as
great as in Switzerland. Well, that's no surprise. What did she expect? Even
worse, she's just in time for Trumpism. She couldn't have picked a worse time
to come back.

~~~
Symbiote
When she wrote the article, presumably some time before 1 February when it was
published, Trump seemed a lot less likely.

~~~
manarth
The article's date says 1 February 2016, but the slug is even earlier, dated
July 2015.

It popped up on HN back then, too.

