
To Paul Graham - Ixiaus
I recently read a short blog article talking about the doom of Digg and the final paragraph caught my eye:<p><i>But Digg is in a deadly, unrecoverable tail spin. The fact is, people -- real people -- are beginning to tire. Submit this, upload that, vote on this, "like" that, be my "friend", check in here, suggest this, retweet that ... there's already so much to do. The only thing left to "Digg" is a grave.</i><p>It is, precisely, the simplicity and minimalism of Hacker News' feature set that keeps it usable for everyday, <i>busy</i>, -- real people --. Obviously, the culture on Hacker News keeps submissions and comments in check, but that culture would not exist if HN were trying to become a social network for entrepreneurs.<p>Your continued interaction and consistent fine-tuning makes this a place that I like to come back to. There is a certain social satisfaction with knowing that one is a part of a community in which the creator is still a participant.<p>I know you are cognizant of what makes this community tick; I also realize it wouldn't be what it is today if your intentions hadn't been clear (and they obviously are) - so I didn't <i>need</i> to say this, but I did <i>want</i> to say this: thank you.
======
pg
Thanks very much. I don't think it's really HN's features or lack of them is
the attraction for most users though, but the quality of the submissions and
comments. So thank you guys.

Ironically I've been thinking of adding some variant of following as a way to
deal with the increasing volume of comments. I just haven't had time to yet.

I did recently (about 3 weeks ago) tweak the algorithm for ranking comments,
and that has had a noticeable effect. Previously it was the same as the one
for ranking frontpage stories. Now it also considers among other things the
average comment score of the submitter. With any luck this will keep HN poised
in its usual position mid-way over the shark for another 6 months.

~~~
chaosmachine
_Now it also considers among other things the average comment score of the
submitter._

Does this create a rich-get-richer type scenario, where users with high
averages get more exposure, thus leading to higher averages?

~~~
j_baker
It might. But that's only an issue if the rich don't deserve to get rich.

~~~
hxa7241
Hold on, that begs the question -- how do we know who deserves? that is the
problem.

The whole thing has a circular dependency: if ranking acts as a filter, then
higher rank means more readers, and that in turn means more upvotes and so a
higher ranking. It is probably not so much the top being undeserving, but that
deserving stuff gets missed.

This seems to be a fundamental weakness in all similar 'ranking' systems, but
I am not sure of the full character and implications...

(There is certainly a substantial component of being an automated system of
'social-proof'. And the filtering can never be entirely effective: if you show
everyone only the good stuff, the filtering would not get done at all.)

~~~
presidentender
The advantage here is that pg is giving an advantage to high averages, not
high point totals. So there's less incentive to be a reddit/digg style
poweruser looking for one upvote on thousands of comments, and more incentive
to say something truly insightful from time to time.

------
edw519
I imagine hn owes a lot of success to its simplicity.

I was always confused by slashdot's filters and the threads in almost every
other forum, with Post #18 replying to Post #7 and Post #27 replying to Post
#3, but only 10 posts visible per page. Busy people don't have the time to
wade through stuff like that, so all you're left with are the trolls.

hn's nested threads built with <table> are so simple that they're brilliant.
No horizontal scrolling, no flipping between pages, just click "reply" and
you're good to go.

I have no idea how much time and effort pg puts into hn, but I'm sure it's
nontrivial. Something as good as hn doesn't get that way purely organically.
Also, I would guess that more of his energy goes into the software, not the
site's output. Why deal with an issue once when you can build something that
will deal with it forever?

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway: thank you pg!

~~~
petercooper
_hn's nested threads built with <table> are so simple that they're brilliant.
No horizontal scrolling, no flipping between pages, just click "reply" and
you're good to go._

I don't think <table>s should get undue praise. With <div>s, the code would be
easier to read mechanically (for manipulation with Greasemonkey, say) and even
though there'd be a little more CSS, the page weight _might_ be reduced a
little (I'd have to make a mockup to be sure ;-))

~~~
coderdude
I disagree. Tables are still the most reliable way to display content under
_nearly_ all circumstances (maybe less so on mobiles, but definitely on the
desktop). They've been stable for years and years. I went through the hardcore
standards phase where I thought it would be the death of my soul if I ever
went back to using tables for layout, but then I read a great article (wish I
had the link) that struck a chord with me. It said you don't have to avoid
tables for certain small situations where it can save you a ton of time and a
few headaches. I would never suggest doing a whole layout in tables, but I
think the comments on HN are a good example of something that would have been
a pain in the ass to get right across all browsers. Just use tables for layout
if it actually makes sense and even then, ever so sparingly.

~~~
barmstrong
Yeah this could quickly devolve into a flame about divs vs tables. But divs I
always saw as a step backwards in one aspect: programmer ease of use. In divs
you have to spend time thinking about "float drop", doing math in your head,
and getting all the columns to have the same height - things which "just work"
in tables. It still surprises me sometimes how quickly they were adopted.

~~~
petercooper
_But divs I always saw as a step backwards in one aspect: programmer ease of
use._

It's always a lot easier _at first_ to overlook structure in your
app/code/whatever. It's when you or others come to work with your code or
extend it in some way (with Greasemonkey, say) that all the extra work comes
along.

If you have to "spend time thinking about" writing tests, it takes longer to
build the prototype of your software but.. that's not a particularly good
rationale for not using tests (though it _is_ still a rationale, of course).
Same goes for semantic markup in my book.

------
jacquesm
If HN ever got as large as digg it would suffer from much of the problems that
digg has, and you will not be able to remedy those by 'staying simple'.

Digg is complex because it is that large, and I think that if HN ever got that
large it would start to suffer in much the same ways. HN is not so much a
reflection of the person that built it (though that definitely does help) as
it is a reflection of the people that participate here.

If and when HN gets to the size of digg and it retains its character it will
have broken the pattern that any social news site has so far exhibited, until
then the jury is out.

~~~
mortenjorck
As long as this document retains the respect of the majority of the users:
<http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html> HN will thrive. It's the single
best set of "social news" community guidelines I've read.

The triumph of HN has been in attracting an initial audience that agrees with
the spirit of that document, and in their subtly but firmly encouraging its
adherence in newcomers.

The character of a community is a tricky thing to build and maintain. A
community can easily veer into the superficial and glib territory of Digg, the
self-referential and jaded territory of Slashdot, or even the sycophantic
territory of Wikipedia. HN has been quite fortunate.

~~~
jacquesm
> the self-referential and jaded territory of Slashdot, or even the
> sycophantic territory of Wikipedia

In this thread that's richly ironic.

It's about as self-referential and sycophantic as I've ever seen here.

~~~
mortenjorck
Your criticism is fair, but I don't think it really compares.

Nowhere in this thread is anyone riffing on in-joke memes a la Slashdot, nor
is anyone attempting to achieve advancement in rank like at Wikipedia.

There is plenty of self-reference here but it's purely practical, and
certainly there's a bit of sycophantic behavior, but what does anyone stand to
gain by it at HN? Honestly telling PG you like his site just makes both of you
feel good, unlike pretending to like a high-ranking Wikipedia admin in hopes
of getting a promotion next round.

Either way, I'd be inclined to agree that love-fests like this aren't
particularly useful to the HN community. But they happen, and occasional ones
are a good sign (and maybe over-frequent ones are a bad sign).

------
bdickason
As someone who recently discovered HN as an alternative to digg/reddit I am
thankful as well.

Things I love: 1) People downvote trolling and negative/witty comments 2) The
interface gets out of your way 3) It updates constantly 4) The content is
exactly what I'm looking for... and exactly what I couldn't find anywhere else
5) People are genuinely here to help. I am eagerly anticipating launching my
startup so I can post an "Ask HN: Review my launch" here!

Ok I wanted it to be 'three things I like' but it turned into 5 :) Thanks to
Paul and the community!

~~~
gte910h
Yeah, but they need to make votes non permanent. It's a crapshoot if you'll
hit the up or down arrow on a mobile device or iPad when you try to rate
stuff.

~~~
lionhearted
I like the permanence, because sometimes I upvote an insightful comment, then
read an insightful reply and upvote it too. I think if votes were impermanent,
I might be more tempted to null or downvote the original point if the second
one is better - not because of evil, just because of the natural human desire
to be very consistent. So I like the permanence thing...

...but I understand the misclicks. Maybe an "undo" button for a short time,
like 10 seconds or until your next click that just nulls your vote?

~~~
gte910h
" I might be more tempted to null or downvote the original point if the second
one is better"

Can't both comments be good?

~~~
paulgb
Agreed. I upvote contradictory comments all the time. I don't see it as
lacking consistency; I'm voting for quality and thought, not necessarily
"right" opinions.

~~~
dhimes
_I'm voting for quality and thought, not necessarily "right" opinions_

Then you are doing it right.

------
manish
One thing that is different here is that this site does not need to generate
(ad/any) revenue, so many of the irritating things that will be common in
other forums will be absent here.

~~~
Ixiaus
What's interesting, is that Hacker News does generate revenue in a _very_
indirect way. By cultivating a hacker community around his early stage
investment company he is ensuring there will always be top-notch thinkers and
doers participating in the niche he has created. Whether this was intentional
or not, I don't know, but it works well for both parties: he has a thriving
community of leading edge people, and the people have a leading edge outlet.
It's a well balanced form of co-creation.

~~~
jacquesm
That's an extremely good point you are making, effectively YC can afford to
subsidize HN because of the fact that they make their money in a way that does
not require pestering the users of the site.

I'm pretty sure that eventually many more really successful websites will find
a way to adopt a model like that, it really is one of the best ways to marry a
happy users to commerce, find some side-channel that you can exploit.

Most websites think that the 'data' they have on their users is the marketable
good, google has often been said to see you, their user as the end-product. YC
does it different, they see a subset of the users as the raw material to drive
their bottom line, the rest are along for the ride.

It's a much more direct version of what FB, google and so on do, and it is
much better imo because it is more honest and transparent.

~~~
inerte
Will find? The crazyness about "social media" is exactly that, luring users
around your product/brand.

~~~
jacquesm
Not really, in those cases the 'product' is the data about the users, not the
actual engagement of the users to create value outside of the forum where the
interaction normally takes place.

It's hard to put the difference any clearer than that, but YC engages a small
subset of their users in activities that they are peripherally engaged in on
the forum. Other 'social' sites sell their users data wholesale, that's a
completely different kettle of fish.

Most of the users on HN are not engaged in the revenue stream of YC, directly
or indirectly whereas almost all the users of other social sites are directly
involved in the revenue stream.

~~~
inerte
There are several websites calling for user engagement where the money source
is not user data. It's about "creating a community" around your product.

I can assure you, in publicity and marketing circles, when social media is
mentioned it is precisely to attract consumers for your product.

The type of interaction between HN and YC is not new. It's just hard to
replicate. Companies are trying this since the dawn of the internet. Think
about what is the forum on the World of Warcraft website. The social media
craze is an attempt to apply this community feeling to other markets.

------
ryanelkins
I wonder what it says about the human psychology that people feel that they
"have to" digg, submit, friend, comment, etc. You can use Digg just like you
use HN - just browse for articles, read them, perhaps comment or not. I always
found this interesting when points or achievements were in a game - there is a
subset of people who feel that they "have to" do those things, even if they
are not fun and don't really want to. They get mad at the designers for making
things less fun when the entire thing is optional even to the general gameplay
of the core game.

Actually the more I think of it, the friend system is the only thing that HN
doesn't have that Digg has. Or maybe I just haven't looked that closely when I
visit Digg lately.

------
kqr2
I believe this is the blog post which the original poster refers to:

 _Digg is deadd_

[http://www.websitemagazine.com/content/blogs/posts/archive/2...](http://www.websitemagazine.com/content/blogs/posts/archive/2010/06/01/digg-
is-deadd.aspx)

~~~
Ixiaus
Thanks, I should have referenced the original post I derived that quote from
(it slipped my mind).

------
drlisp
This level of ass kissing makes me want to puke.

~~~
thaumaturgy
I have to agree, actually. More to the point, this submission violates both
the written and unspoken rules of submissions here: "Please don't post on HN
to ask or tell us something", and the unspoken rule that content-less
submissions are generally frowned upon.

This is something that could have been equally effective as a brief email to
pg. As the current top-ranked post here, it's kind of ... masturbatory.

~~~
Ixiaus
I up voted you because you're correct. It would have easily sufficed as an
email to PG.

However, the impact of appreciating something and having communal pooling of
appreciation affirms the intent. I want HN to remain what it is and I _did
not_ want to be "just another email" in PG's inbox; I suppose by submitting
this in the first place I contributed to "what HN is not" but I do still feel
that my submission was appropriate in the sense that my intent was an
intelligent choice and not a "masturbatory" choice.

~~~
_pius
_However, the impact of appreciating something and having communal pooling of
appreciation affirms the intent ..._

While I also like the same HN features you like, I didn't upvote your post
because it just felt too obsequious.

~~~
Ixiaus
I think there is a defined line between obsequiousness and appreciation. I
feel the tone of my post actually leaned on the side of appreciation than it
did "obedient or servile". I suppose that any sort of "Thank you" statement
could be taken for fawning, particularly in a community that values a karmic
rating system; as I said in my reply above, I still think my post was
submitted with a clear and intelligent choice.

~~~
_pius
And I guess a lot of folks agreed with you, as your post is at 251 points and
counting.

------
blizkreeg
Perhaps audience curation is a big factor in HN's success? HN attracts a very
select band of people. I wouldn't say the same thing about Digg or Reddit
(perhaps they were the same when smaller, I never used them). Hacker News, by
virtue of its name, reputation, and association with YC is not open (not in
the literal sense) to anyone and everyone willing to participate.

This, IMO, keeps the quality of posts and comments high and in a way, prevents
it from going "mainstream".

~~~
GFischer
Hmm.. it might not be "mainstream" yet (and I hope it remains selective)..
however, I'm reminded of Groucho Marx's quote: "I don't want to belong to any
club that will accept people like me as a member" ...

I used to participate on Slashdot actively, I'm a programmer, yet I've never
seen a line of Lisp so far, nor started a Startup - and I saw comments from
"old-timers" that said they weren't as interested in some of the kind of
articles that interest me and would rather HN had stayed focused entirely on
startups and hacking.

Does that mean HN has gone "mainstream"? I don't know. But it's not as select
as it used to be :) (and I hope it's a good thing)

------
jayruy
It's worth noting that hn doesn't aspire to profitability via advertising - pg
doesn't have to worry about things like "stickiness" and "reach".

So yes - hn is a great service to the community.

------
tjmaxal
This seems like as good a place as any to ask this: Can only some people down
vote? B/c I have seen posts with negative scores and as I am only allowed to
up vote, I have wondered how someone gets a negative score next to a comment?

~~~
LaPingvino
When you participate enough with quality articles and comments (measured with
upvotes) you get a higher karma and at some point this will grant you the
ability to downvote.

I am mostly passively participating here (although I see myself commenting and
submitting a bit more now) so I didn't reach such a karma yet...

~~~
cenazoic
I'm another one of the mostly passive readers of the site, mostly because I'm
teaching myself to program, rather than actually being a programmer.

HN has raised my awareness, made me more thoughtful about how and what I
actually think about things (part of the passivity comes from the idea that
any sloppy thought will be immediately shot down (rightfully so)), and overall
contributed to an ongoing desire to be a larger part of the overall tech
community online.

Thanks to PG (whose essays I often reread -"Keep Your Identity Small" is one I
constantly refer to other people - for HN and providing this nonname wannabe
programmer a place to learn. And to learn to think. Thank you, PG.

~~~
eru
> (part of the passivity comes from the idea that any sloppy thought will be
> immediately shot down (rightfully so))

You can still make a meaningful contribution by asking questions, if you want
to.

------
vladocar
It's not only the simplicity but also the purpose. HN gathers people with
similar objectives and interest. Designers and developers who want to
experiment with the new technologies and create and share there own business.

------
antidaily
It's not the interface or features - Hacker News stays interesting by being
_mostly_ hacker news. It serves its niche well.

------
thepumpkin1979
this is gold: "the simplicity and minimalism of Hacker News' feature set that
keeps it usable for everyday, busy, -- real people --"

Agreed.

------
gfodor
HN has a secret weapon. If it ever gets too Digg-like, we can always unleash
Operation Erlang II: Electric Boogaloo.

------
napierzaza
Or the doom or Reddit. Sugary one-note posts that are just visual jokes or one
persons attempt to get another's attention. _cough_

Anyhow, I just hope posts about "do you hate this" start rising to the top of
HN.

------
sswam
I guess the success of "hacker news" is largely due to:

1\. the name "hacker news" is a cool name 2\. simple hacker-friendly web
interface w/o ads.

------
Desireco
downvote please

------
joegaudet
Hear hear.

------
nexneo
I almost love HN.

(will remove `almost` if they remove table layout)

~~~
joshfinnie
How does the layout have any bearing on whether or not you enjoy the website,
especially when dealing with a website like HN that is basically in tabular
form?

I don't know, so if there is actually a good reason, I would love to hear it!

