
Don’t Hate Her, She’s Just the (Subway) Messenger - daegloe
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/nyregion/subway-mta-social-media-alerts.html
======
Animats
The innovation here is that this PR person works in the Rail Control Center,
with the people who are actually running the subway. Not in some PR office.
She's surrounded by the people who are telling the trains what to do,
controlling signals and switches, and dealing with problems. She can see the
track boards and listen to the comm loops.

Contrast this with big sites which have status pages showing everything is
just great half an hour after it's hit the mainstream media that they're down.

It's very New York. When Maersk Shipping had a big hacking incident and was
down for most of a week, the best no-bullshit info was coming from someone at
the Port Authority who edits their feed for truckers. Maersk PR was saying
"almost everything is fine". The Port Authority trucker feed was saying stuff
like "Maersk can't take outbounds at APM, only one gate is open for inbounds,
don't return empties at this time". That brutal honesty beats horsing a semi
over there to find out you can't unload.

~~~
msla
Seems like it's a new communications channel which is ripe to get PR'd into
uselessness, just like the company's official channels.

Maybe it can't be, because there has to be _some_ useful channel to tell
people that, no, those ships aren't coming in today or that train isn't going
to make it on time or so on, but if the company sees a value in presenting the
happy face to _everyone_ , it has an incentive to make whatever deals it needs
to in order to ensure all public or not-private channels stay on-message. This
works out to NDAs and encryption, usually.

Maybe that's impossible at a practical level.

------
ardit33
I hate to say this, but the MTA/Subway in NYC has reached the level of service
that you can expect from a third country system. The pain is even worse during
the summer where all stations have a mix of scorching heat and humidity, and
it feels almost like you are in a sauna.

The MTA doesn't just need more money, but a completely change in leadership as
well, and putting new people that have higher expectations on the service, and
that actually use it themselves.

Even simple thing like "scheduled maintenance" notices look like they were
design for lawyers and not normal people.

The current management is totally dysfunctional, and yes Ny Gov. Cuomo is part
of the problem. (and the boob wants to run for President). He is going to run
down the country just as he is doing with the MTA.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/opinion/new-york-
subway-a...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/opinion/new-york-subway-
andrew-cuomo.html)

~~~
mjevans
It needs... robots.

Robots for all the things that a commuter doesn't directly interact with.

The humans belong in the human interface and can remain in the stations; MAYBE
as actual patrols on the train looking to provide assistance and keep the
peace (and also having access to get in to the control area in case an over-
ride is required).

------
jrockway
I checked out their Twitter feed a couple days ago (had to reroute due to a
broken rail at Wall St. and wanted to see a picture or something of the broken
rail). I was amazed how polite and helpful they are to the most irate
customers. It really does seem that the social media team calms down a lot of
angry people.

Meanwhile, I am surprised at how desynchronized their various data sources
are. I check mta.info before I go on a subway trip, and did that this morning
for my commute to work. Delays on the 4 and 5, but none on the 2 and 3. I go
down to the 2/3 platform and there is an announcement playing saying that the
2 and 3 are delayed (for the same reason given on mta.info about the 4/5;
signal problems at Borough Hall). The website apparently didn't get the
message. At least I had cell service while waiting...

~~~
pavel_lishin
The worst part about mta.info is that it'll show scheduled work on lines, but
it doesn't show closed stations - so the C looks like it skips 86th but not
72nd, when in actuality 72nd is closed for repairs and you ain't getting on or
off a train there. If you need to plan a trip, you have to check at least two
places.

~~~
jrockway
Yeah, the updates are honestly pretty bad.

For that broken rail incident, I'm pretty sure I could have gotten home. The
announcement said Clark St. was closed, which is my station... but I am pretty
sure, in retrospect, that they meant that there would be no Manhattan-bound
trains at that station because they're being rerouted over the 4/5, but I
think Brooklyn-bound trains were not being rerouted (as that rail wasn't
broken). They were very unclear, and so I just took an alternate route. They
could have been completely clear, but chose not to.

(I'll also point out that they provided walking directions from Clark St. to
Borough Hall... but they provided directions to the actual Brooklyn Borough
Hall, not the subway station with the same name. Oops.)

------
no_wizard
I have friends who have and currently live in NYC and I know the MTA gets a
lot of flak from them and sometimes for very good reason.

I have to say though all things considered this is a shining example (to me)
of something that is typically very opaque - government agency public
relations- and giving it some honest try polish and actually trying to meet
people where they are (e.g Twitter)

Does this paper over all the problems of th MTA? I’m sure it does not! I do
think they’re at least trying though and that’s a lot more than can be said of
other gov agencies I have dealt with.

~~~
probably_wrong
The German train system uses TTS in all stations to announce (among other
things) delays and cancellations. Cancellations are usually followed by the
phrase "we apologize". This has always been for me the most infuriating part:
that the fakest of apologies was attached to it.

In contrast, getting actual information about the delay works for me,
precisely because it feels more honest.

~~~
pluma
The most infuriating part for me with the local transport agency in Cologne
(KVB) is the verbosity. They use a 90s style unbearably slow ticker display.
So if you catch a glimpse at the wrong moment you're stuck reading all the
unimportant garbage while trying to figure out whether the message is even
relevant to you.

This is especially bad with cancellations because it lists every major stop
(with station name and time) for the canceled tram. So instead of getting the
important information instantly you are stuck waiting for the message to end
and then repeat to the point that's actually important. I realise this is a
technical limitation because apparently all affected stations get the same
message but this seems fairly archaic while at the same time also being an
obvious cost-cutting move over having actual announcements.

In general however the infuriating part about the apologies is that instead of
"we apologize for the inconvenience" a more literal translation of the one you
see most often -- "Danke für Ihr Verständnis" \-- is "thank you for your
understanding", which comes off as super passive-aggressive compared to the
more apologetic but much less frequent "Wir bitten um Verständnis" ("we ask
for your understanding"). Sure, they're both hollow phrases but thanking you
seems extremely condescending.

~~~
JackCh
The best display technology IMHO is the old electro-mechanical split-flap.
They update pretty fast, and they make one hell of a racket when they do so
everybody in the train station knows when something updated (this is a
feature). They're sufficiently versatile to display information a train
station needs to. They also have a certain aesthetic that simply cannot be
touched by modern LCD/LED displays.

~~~
workinfunk
You must be one of those hipsters who lugs around a typewriter to cafes.

\- They are very slow compared to digital. \- They aren't versatile, they
can't display arbitrary information. Each message has to be crafted
individually and fit in among the rest. Which makes it nice for station lines
since there are a small number that never change. Anything else? Not so much.
\- The noise is not intentional, it's more of a bug than a feature for sure.
In a busy train station they change every minute or more so as an alerting
mechanism it's near useless.

~~~
JackCh
We're talking about train station displays, not arbitrary displays. Nobody has
ever done word processing on a split-flap display so obviously I'm talking
about a restricted domain. They don't need to display arbitrary information
and the range of information they need to display rarely changes since that
typically involves construction. The noise, an unintentional consequence of
the mechanism, provides utility to train travelers and is therefore a feature.

In a busy train station the duration of the split-flap change provides an
auditory clue to what's going on. If you hear one or two rows update then
nothing out of the ordinary is happening. If you hear several rows update that
might be a good indication that your train is now on the board, or it could
signal mass delays. For many years I went through 30th Street Station in
Philadelphia with a split-flap board in the middle and I loved that board.
When I'm at airports with LCD boards, I always miss it. LCD boards are trash,
you don't notice them changing unless you're staring at them, almost always
have text too small to read unless you're standing directly in front of it,
and are completely soulless.

I learned to type on a Selectric years before my family bought our first
computer. I haven't touched one since.

~~~
grkvlt
> Nobody has ever done word processing on a split-flap display

You _say_ that, but I'd be willing to bet that this guy has:
[https://scottbez1.github.io/splitflap/](https://scottbez1.github.io/splitflap/)

~~~
jefnwk
Oat Foundry Split Flap displays do real-time typing, real-time display of 3rd
party data, and oh so much more.

------
L_Rahman
This is an improvement over how things worked before, but the end state for
this has to be an API definition for service changes so that services like
Google Maps and Citymapper can update my routes or estimated travel times.

I don't want to plan a route in Citymapper and then have to check myMTA for
service status.

------
binarymax
One of the feeds she monitors is here:
[https://twitter.com/NYCTSubway/with_replies](https://twitter.com/NYCTSubway/with_replies)

------
chimeracoder
I live in NYC, and I follow transit news very rigorously.

This article underplays the extent of the problem, which is that the
information they give is _just not actually correct_.

First of all, the MTA made a big deal about rolling out the subway countdown
clocks across (almost) all the stations. Except, for the old BMT lines[0], the
clocks are just... not actually accurate! They're literally just publishing
the scheduled times, and almost never actually update it to correspond to a
delay[1][2]. Delays are dramatically worse across every single subway line
than they were ten years ago[3], so by this point, those scheduled times are
almost completely useless. Thankfully, the BMT countdown clocks are a
different style from the IRT ones, so as a rule of thumb: if it's black text
on white background, then it's completely useless, and if it's green LEDs on
black background, then it's probably-somewhat-useful, but still not
necessarily up-to-date.

Even for planned service changes, they publish information in unbelievably
obtuse ways[4]. Yes, they're technically correct. But the point is to
communicate things clearly, not to publish statements that are defensibly not-
wrong in a court of law.

Just last month, they decided to stop service for the express trains midtown
(or run it in two segments - I never figured out which). They didn't tell
anyone, so an entire train full of passengers went two stops downtown and two
stops back uptown. Because they also held the train before one of the
stations, we literally took half an hour to end up right back where we
started[5].

[0] For the most part, any line with a letter instead of a number, like the
A/C/E instead of the 1/2/3

[1]
[https://twitter.com/2AvSagas/status/950863996323794944](https://twitter.com/2AvSagas/status/950863996323794944)

[2]
[https://twitter.com/2AvSagas/status/948727423444639745](https://twitter.com/2AvSagas/status/948727423444639745)

[3]
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/28/nyregion/subw...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/28/nyregion/subway-
delays-overcrowding.html)

[4]
[https://twitter.com/2AvSagas/status/933826118364299266](https://twitter.com/2AvSagas/status/933826118364299266)

[5]
[https://twitter.com/chimeracoder/status/1000422530736377857](https://twitter.com/chimeracoder/status/1000422530736377857)

~~~
ng12
> Except, for the old BMT lines[0], the clocks are just... not actually
> accurate!

I can't say I agree. I've been a daily commuter on the ACE, 1, and NQR/BD
trains since the introduction of the clocks and found them all to be
wonderfully accurate.

~~~
workinfunk
Yeah, it's almost surely a case of remembering the handful of times when the
clocks were inaccurate because they caused you trouble, while forgetting the
hundreds of times when they worked correctly. They do work correctly most of
the time, and the A division works even better than the B division, as you'd
expect. (the opposite of what OP claimed.)

~~~
chimeracoder
> Yeah, it's almost surely a case of remembering the handful of times when the
> clocks were inaccurate because they caused you trouble, while forgetting the
> hundreds of times when they worked correctly.

It absolutely is not availability bias, as demonstrated by the concrete data
included in one of those links.

But even if it were - the whole point of having those signs is to alert you
about the actual state of the subway, factoring in delays or service changes.
Otherwise I could just download the PDF of the scheduled train times from the
MTA's website and look at that. (Yes, those exist. There's almost no reason
any person would ever need to look at them).

> They do work correctly most of the time, and the A division works even
> better than the B division, as you'd expect. (the opposite of what OP
> claimed.)

No, that's not the opposite of what I said. The A division is the IRT lines.
Those are the ones that use the ATS system (which was outdated even at the
time it was rolled out), and that's why the IRT lines (the ones with the LEDs
on black background) are at least somewhat useful. Even if the train is
delayed from its normal schedule, the times posted there are supposed to be
somewhat accurate because it's using the ATS signal data.

For the B division (the BMT lines), you might as well be using the static PDFs
that post the idealized train schedules[0]. I am not exaggerating; that's
literally the data they are displaying. Once in a blue moon, for _very_
serious delays such as a train accident, it will tell you that a train is
"delayed" instead of telling you the updated ETA, but that doesn't help,
because you want to know _how long_ the train will take, rather than just the
fact that it's "delayed"[1]. Most of the time, though, it won't actually
update the time at all, and it'll keep displaying the wrong estimate until the
train is literally about to pull into the station (at which point it'll skip
straight to "0 minutes away").

The reason they don't tell you more information is because that information
doesn't exist. They don't know where the trains are, beacuse the BMT lines use
outdated signaling technology that's decades old, and the MTA has stonewalled
all efforts to upgrade them[3].

So, in short, the BMT countdown clocks are useless because:

* They only publish the scheduled times, not the actual estimated arrival times

* Only about 50-60% of BMT trains arrive according to the times posted on those schedules

* For the remainder, it usually displays the wrong information, because it doesn't have any way of knowing that the information is out-of-date

[0]
[http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/tacur.pdf](http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/tacur.pdf)

[1] Saying a train is "delayed" doesn't give me any useful information,
because I already know that about half the trains are delayed. And since it
doesn't tell you what the scheduled ETA was, telling me that it's "delayed"
from the scheduled ETA is also pretty useless[2].

[2] If the train is scheduled to come in 20 minutes, but it's been delayed by
five, that's different from if it's scheduled to come in 3 minutes, but has
been delayed by 10. Those two situations are displayed _identically_ on the
BMT countdown clocks, with no way to distinguish between them.

[3] The official MTA party line is that they want to wait and do the really
expensive, comprehensive, state-of-the-art overhaul. In reality, that means
that they've been saying this for nearly thirty years, and have actively
fought all attempts to provide quicker and cheaper ways of achieving the same
end results.

~~~
ng12
> * They only publish the scheduled times, not the actual estimated arrival
> times

Do you have a source for this? I'm positively certain it's not true. I time my
commute every morning with the online subway clock that matches exactly with
the one in the station -- I leave my apartment when the Q is ~8m away and it
always arrives shortly after I get to the platform. I've only encountered one
situation where the clock was unacceptably wrong: a downtown A train at 59th
that was 1m away for over 5m. That happened over a year ago and I still
remember it.

Similarly, when delays happen the clock does get updated accordingly. Today
was a good example -- 24m for the next N train during commuting hours :/

I think you may be confusing the countdown clocks with the kiosks. Once upon a
time they did display the scheduled time. I'm not sure if they still do but
the above head displays are without a doubt more accurate. Anecdotally
speaking, the margin of error seems to be roughly +/\- one minute. I'm aware
that's anecdotal evidence but I simply don't believe that somebody could take
the subway on a daily basis and think the countdown clocks are that
inaccurate.

~~~
chimeracoder
> I think you may be confusing the countdown clocks with the kiosks

No, I'm not. I know the difference between the kiosks and the overhead clocks.

> I simply don't believe that somebody could take the subway on a daily basis
> and think the countdown clocks are that inaccurate.

Benjamin Kabak, whom I linked above, has been covering the MTA and transit in
New York for over a decade, in addition to being a daily subway rider.
Offhand, I can't think of a single independent journalist who has more
comprehensive knowledge of the minutiae of the NYC transit systems than he
does, let alone a more established track record of documenting not only the
visible problems, but the factors that create those problems. If that,
combined with the other data provided, isn't convincing, I don't know what
else could be.

~~~
ng12
You haven't really provided any data. A few random tweets about incidents,
only one about the countdown clocks where the next response offers a probable
explanation.

You're trying to sell me on a different version of reality, here. You're
telling me a system I rely on every single day is completely unreliable.

Do you live in NYC? Do you take the trains? Go put your theory to the test. Go
sit at at a busy train station for 20m and watch the countdown clocks tick
down until the train comes. I promise you'll be pleasantly surprised. The
countdown clocks are just about the only part of the MTA system that works.

~~~
chimeracoder
> You're trying to sell me on a different version of reality, here.... Give
> the MTA their single, well-deserved victory. Put your theory for the test.
> Go sit at at a busy train station for 20m and watch the countdown clocks
> tick down until the train comes. I promise you'll be pleasantly surprised.

I'm not trying to sell you on anything. In fact, I'm not even interested in
continuing this discussion. I've provided you with a reference to the most
well-respected journalist covering the technical details of the MTA and NYC
transit. If you're really interested in learning more, it's not hard to do
some basic Googling and find their extensive coverage and analysis of this
problem.

> Do you live in NYC? Do you take the trains? I'm so confused -- are you
> astroturfing for some reason?

Just because someone presents information that contradicts your anecdotal
experience, that doesn't mean they're astroturfing. Though at this point, if
you're going to start slinging bad-faith accusations with no basis, it's
pretty clear this conversation is going nowhere.

~~~
ng12
> it's pretty clear this conversation is going nowhere.

Yes, obviously, because you keep saying "look at the data" while providing
none of relevance. Nobody's arguing that the MTA is rife with delays and poor
planning, we're talking about the countdown clocks specifically.

The countdown clocks do not show the scheduled time. They use Bluetooth
receivers to physically track the trains [1]. Your fundamental premise is
wrong.

I'm honestly curious -- do you Uber everywhere? How often do you take the
train?

1\. [http://www.thetransitwire.com/2017/09/01/mta-uses-
bluetooth-...](http://www.thetransitwire.com/2017/09/01/mta-uses-bluetooth-
tech-for-next-train-info/)

------
raverbashing
As much as the system might be bad, remember the human behind the service.

~~~
Sangermaine
Then the human can fix the awful service and stop feeding us bullshit.

------
sametmax
I don't get the hate. I just love to have a good information system.

People hating those messages never had to live in countries with failures
occurring without any feedback.

~~~
chimeracoder
> I don't get the hate. I just love to have a good information system.

That's the exact problem. We _don 't_ have a good information system:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17442606](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17442606)

------
jefnwk
Check out these Split Flap displays - real-time updates, API integrations, oh
YES. [https://www.oatfoundry.com/split-
flap/](https://www.oatfoundry.com/split-flap/)

------
RIMR
Can I recommend that "MYmta" should be replaced with "MyMTA".

~~~
delinka
You can, but I suspect they'll stick with the former:
[https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/mymta/id1297605670?mt=8](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/mymta/id1297605670?mt=8)

Seems to me they've branded it this way intentionally.

------
tomjen3
Don't hire pr people, make the trains run on time. It works for japan.

