
What are your options for cognitive enhancement? - Ygg2
https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/at-work/tech-careers/what-are-your-options-for-cognitive-enhancement
======
drakonka
I haven't tried microdosing but am all for nootropics to help increase mental
acuity and focus.

At the same time I so agree with the author's statement that 'The perspective
I’m advancing calls for first exhausting “analog” means to achieve mind-
expansion before pursuing either pills or processors or both in combination.'
\- if your diet is crap, your exercise is nonexistent, you get no sleep, no
nootropic concoction is going to make up for that.

As for employer-mandated enhancers - what follows is a very initial stream of
thoughts at the idea, not something well thought-through at all. This article
made me consider this for the first time. I can see the risk. At the same time
there are so many other methods of mental improvement employers could be
mandating today. Sure, none may be a "magic pill", but there are things proven
to improve or deteriorate our performance at work. Sleep being one of them.
Yet not once has an employer attempted to track and mandate a certain number
of sleep hours to me. Not once have I had an employer force me to take up
exercise. Having said that my employer does subsidize gym memberships so we
are encouraged to stay active, so maybe this is a counter-example; maybe if a
magical brain pill existed the way an employer would get you on it is by
simply sponsoring it for their employees.

~~~
balfirevic
> if your diet is crap, your exercise is nonexistent, you get no sleep, no
> nootropic concoction is going to make up for that.

Are you saying this as a statement of fact or more like an advice?

Because, as a statement of fact, it is very probably false. Anti-ADHD
medication will make up (and then some) for crappy diet, no exercise and bad
sleep (this one probably only to a certain extent).

~~~
oarabbus_
>Because, as a statement of fact, it is very probably false. Anti-ADHD
medication will make up (and then some) for crappy diet, no exercise and bad
sleep (this one probably only to a certain extent).

This is provably false.

Amphetamines reduce the appetite; they in no way "make up" for crappy diet.

Amphetamines increase blood pressure and heart rate; while this keeps one
skinny when combined with the above point, it does not strengthen the
cardiovascular system. It doesn't "make up" for no exercise.

Finally the comorbidity associated to bad/no sleep is exacerbated by
amphetamine usage.

I am impressed at how every point you made is false.

~~~
balfirevic
Only impressive thing here is that you managed to miss the context of the
thread.

We are talking about using "nootropics to help increase mental acuity and
focus". In that sense, amphetamines will make up for lessened mental
performance that you may have due to bad diet or lack of exercise.

~~~
oarabbus_
Sounds like an opinion claim.

There are plenty of studies of the effects of amphetamines on sleep-deprived
individuals (it does help with alertness and mental acuity, provided the
deprivation is not severe, and even then only in the short term).

Can you link articles proving your claims about amphetamines clearing up
reduced mental performance specifically due to bad diet or lack of exercise?

~~~
balfirevic
If you are actually interested, there is lot of information here:
[https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-
mo...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-more-than-
you-wanted-to-know/) (with sources)

The summary is that Adderall works well to increase focus for basically
everyone.

~~~
oarabbus_
This is about its cardiovascular safety primarily, not the claims you made.

------
mensetmanusman
Mine:

1500 calorie dinner with lots of fresh salad, fruits, meat, veggies, cheese at
~5:30 pm.

Get at least 7 hours of sleep.

One cup of coffee at 6:00 AM, black, no dairy/sugar, no breakfast (continue
fast).

At 12 pm, have 1-2 apples to break fast and to fend off hunger. Eat the entire
apple/core for probiotic properties.

Tip: try to stay on my feet most of the day, standing desk, moving to other
places, etc. —

It has taken a decade to find this diet for my cognitive enhancement. I do not
get tired post noon now until after 4 pm.

Extremely alert around 9 to 11 AM.

A daily 18 hour fast seems to be working really well for some reason. Only one
cup of coffee per day. Sleep is critical and should be repetitive.

I know I am in a good place when I am consistently waking up 3-5 minutes prior
to 5:30 AM alarm.

~~~
silveroriole
Is this real? How in hell are you eating a 1500 calorie single meal?
Especially with salad and vegetables which must be pretty low in caloric
density. I barely manage to eat that across an entire day!

~~~
mensetmanusman
No breakfast, and a very small lunch. A standard sized male needs around 2k a
day :)

~~~
silveroriole
But how are you fitting it in your stomach, or achieving the caloric density
that allows you to do that? Unless I ate that meal over the course of about 3
hours I don’t think I could physically manage it. Usually I feel full or over-
full from a meal of 400 to 600 calories.

~~~
mensetmanusman
No idea. If I am very hungry, I could eat an entire red baron’s frozen pizza
with ranch, that is like 1600 calories right there :) Just add a lot of fat!
Energy density is high

------
jshaqaw
I appreciate the author raising the risks of cognitive enhancement in terms of
a future where it is economically nonviable to opt-out. This is an interesting
framing which I hadn't thought of before.

~~~
npo9
This is a common framing borrowed by steroid use in athletics.

------
tw1010
I've never heard someone persuasively and eloquently express to me, in a non-
dopey way, just how (small amounts of) acid can act as cognitive enchantment.
Anyone care to take a stab at it?

For instance, is the effect only temporary, in the sense that it unlocks some
region of not normally traversed mental state space? (E.g. allowing you to
write paragraphs you wouldn't otherwise be able to.) Or is the effect more
permanent, in the sense of teaching you something, providing you with a new
muscle which can be used later even in a sober state of mind (teaching you to
ride a type of brain bike, which then can't be unlearned), or by showing you
connections between disparate ideas you hadn't previously had the ability to
see next to each other?

~~~
bigzyg33k
As somebody who has microdosed, I'd attribute most "enhancement" to perceived
improvement in mood, and an improvement in my ability to look at problems from
"outside" the box.

I'm currently leetcoding in preparation for tech interviews, and find it much
easier to work out the "trick" to solve problems while microdosing LSD

~~~
jl2718
This is a perfect example of nootropic dystopia: paying for a small advantage
in a mostly meaningless unproductive task with possibly maladaptive permanent
changes to the brain.

Of course this is not new. Ritalin has been used as a study drug for
meaningless academic tests for decades.

But it really goes beyond drugs. The experiences created by media and games
today, even social app feedback loops, are far more powerful than any real-
world experience. Go to bed every night with a show or a game or a social app,
and you will lose your edge very quickly. (I’m currently embroiled in a muted
partner dispute of several years over this.)

And yet I have considered exactly the same, because the last few years has
filled my head with so much crap that I never wanted to think about; perhaps
microdosing would allow a more intentional reset, and leetcode may be the
closest thing normal folks have to productive mental engagement. Certainly not
most jobs, even in tech, which is sad.

~~~
GaryNumanVevo
I mean, I'm doing cocaine to beat the Advent of Code leaderboard currently.

~~~
mistermann
This comment is awesome whether it is true or not.

------
Yuval_Halevi
I do think that trying a psychedelic drugs might be a positive thing for many
people. The problem is that not all people can are suitable for it, not
everyone is ready to experience certain feelings.

I would love to hear entrepreneurs who find it useful (I talk mainly about
micros dosing now)

Related articles I read not long ago, about this subject:

\- [https://psmag.com/education/microdosing-may-increase-
creativ...](https://psmag.com/education/microdosing-may-increase-creativity)

\- [https://qz.com/1449166/study-finds-magic-mushroom-
microdosin...](https://qz.com/1449166/study-finds-magic-mushroom-microdosing-
boosts-creativity/)

~~~
codingslave
Almost everyone that I meet who has done considerable, or even moderate,
amounts of psychedelics has clear and obvious personality changes. Personality
is a poor word to use, but something like their disposition, "hippy" attitude
is extremely common. So much so that I think these drugs cause long term
physical damage to peoples cognitive faculties. This is completely anecdotal,
but I have seen it so many times in my life that I wouldn't touch a
psychedelic with a ten foot pole. And yes, I have tripped on acid, but only
once, and do believe that while in some ways it was earth shattering, in many
ways I would take it back if I could.

The most productive and successful people I meet almost always have been
mostly sober their whole life, exhibiting balance and clear headedness. If
psychedelics are doing any good, it is because those who are taking them are
already so broken, any kind of change could be construed as positive.

~~~
leadingthenet
Those are big claims you're making, and I doubt you could find much actual
science to back up them up.

Remember, psychedelics are not a new phenomenon in human society...

~~~
codingslave
Growing up I was friends with a large group of people deep into psychedelics,
I watched them transform from who they were before the drugs to who they were
after. These are people took the drugs seriously, the dosages, their "set and
setting". Society tells us that anecdotal evidence is false, but thats
brainwashing. I can see with my own two my eyes what drugs do. Most likely
certain areas of people brains are dampened or flattened by these drugs, and
so if youre and anxious person, maybe you experience "relief", but that comes
at a cost.

~~~
leadingthenet
What cost?! If all you have is anecdata, then here's mine: Psychedelics have
been the catalyst to some of the most profoundly positive experiences in my
life, and any changes that I've experienced afterwards were wholly positive.
Same with my group of friends who did the same. There.

You won't take my anecdotes seriously, just as I won't take your anecdotes
seriously, so I hope you see now why this kind of hyperbole is worth nothing
if not backed up by peer-reviewed science.

Are you seriously suggesting I'm brainwashed because I asked for sources?
Jesus man, you're very far gone.

~~~
codingslave
Not suggesting brainwashed, just that its very common for people on hacker
news and elsewhere on the internet to argue against being able to extrapolate
truth from subjective experiences. It's common that we are told that what we
see have seen cannot be the full truth because we "don't have enough data".
"But thats a topic for another time

The thing is that it maybe true that your definition of "positive experience"
fits my definition of what I have seen as the before and after. Many of these
people who have become more hippy like would also describe that as a positive
thing. But like I was saying, what I have seen has been that psychedelic
effects on peoples brains are often deterministic, many people who have taken
too many end up with very similar psychological profiles and dispositions.
Clearly there is something going on there.

In some ways, part of the angst in my post arises from all of these different
news articles popping up that talk about the positives of psychedelics, when
neither the people writing the articles, nor those reading them probably know
very many people with any experience.

~~~
thatcat
People on the internet probably have a better background in statistics than
you since you're suggesting your hypothesis using one qualitative sample based
entirely on your memory with no variance or power calculations can be used to
infer anything about the general population. You're just stating an opinion
which leads to pointless rebuttals. Psychadellics allow you to revalue things,
if you use that opportunity to group think with a subculture instead of
finding your own better values then that is more of an issue with the user
than the psychadellics effects in general.

~~~
codingslave
I work as a machine learning engineer, and have a masters degree in applied
math, I know statistics. Thanks for the subtle you must not be smart cheap
shot though

------
colorincorrect
nitpicking here, but Cogito Ergo Sum (“I think, therefore I am”) has
absolutely nothing to do with intelligence. in modern vernacular you might
translate it as "i percieve/witness therefore i exist"

~~~
pbhjpbhj
You might take it that way, but are you sure that's correct. The
derivation/etymology of _cogito_ appears to imply active thought, as does
_penser_ (I've always assumed Descartes conceived it in French, and
translated, but I confess I don't know which natural language - if any - his
mind was using). As opposed to merely passively regarding the World. The
epigram's context is "application of reason", at least.

~~~
melon_madness
I'm pretty sure when Decartes said that, he meant that that's the only thing
we know for sure to be true, since everything else could be a hallucination.
He wasn't making an argument for cognitive enhancement... was he?

------
dangus
Whether it be drugs, cybernetic enhancements, mental discipline and training,
and changes in diet, I’d eschew all of them (maybe except for diet
improvement) and instead advocate for this: engineers should stop taking work
so seriously.

I don’t really care if I’m working to 100% of my potential. My employer won’t
pay me more for that optimization anyway.

I think there’s something of a toxic attitude in Silicon Valley that we should
all be honing ourselves into this amazing constantly-tinkering engineer who
runs a really cool blog. There’s also a general toxic mentality in America
that we can all work our way to becoming billionaires - in reality, none of us
can optimize our way into having family connections to the elites in our
society. In reality, that engineer doing all that cool stuff in the Bay Area
in their shared studio apartment probably doesn’t have a better retirement
plan than the community college sysadmin with a paid-off single family home in
upstate New York.

For me, I just work to put food on the table. I want to be average enough to
he employable. Anything beyond that isn’t worth the diminishing return on
investment, or a reduction in family time.

I can’t optimize my way to being genetically gifted enough to match the output
of the 10x engineers who _do_ get promoted, and I certainly can’t match their
24/7 dedication to work. Employers generally promote people for making the
right person happy at the right time, not for producing the most technically
competent work.

~~~
jpadkins
> There’s also a general toxic mentality in America that we can all work our
> way to becoming billionaires - in reality, none of us can optimize our way
> into having family connections to the elites in our society.

Current billionaires are almost all from non-elite backgrounds. Only 1 of the
top 10 came from a family with billion dollar wealth.
[https://www.forbes.com/billionaires/#57168b13251c](https://www.forbes.com/billionaires/#57168b13251c)

If you come from an upper middle class background (top 25th percentile), you
can become a billionaire in America (with luck and hard work).

~~~
slumdev
You don't need a billion dollars to have an elite background.

No one in the top ten is a rags-to-riches story. Plenty of elite universities
and family connections.

~~~
jpadkins
please don't strawman. I never said rags-to-riches. I said upper middle class
(25th percentile). Elite universities take great students from upper middle
class, and many of those billionaires did not graduate from elite
universities.

~~~
akhilcacharya
Eh...you probably can't get into an elite university without already being
elite unless you're a recruited athlete or have another "hook". Normal, middle
class kids don't win ISEF or math olympiads unless their parents are
professors or something.

~~~
mav3rick
Many kids do. Just because you didn't doesn't mean others don't.

------
vulcanodon
the arguments against cognitive enhancement being easy: \-
[https://www.gwern.net/Drug-heuristics](https://www.gwern.net/Drug-heuristics)

------
qrybam
Cutting out processed carbs, staying active, and fasting has had the greatest
impact on my cognition. The best part is it’s sustainable! I can keep going
day after day. Caffeine and nicotine give minor boosts but quickly become
liabilities rather than enhancers.

~~~
leblancfg
Tried IMF for two weeks recently, and my mood was so bad in the mornings I had
to stop it; my wife thanked me afterwards. I'm a little disappointed I didn't
get "over the hump" which reportedly lasts 3-4 weeks, and then mood is
supposed to stabilize.

Anything relatable in this sentence, and any tips to help "get over the hump"
you might have?

~~~
nate
I got into long distance running during this morning-not-eating period.
Totally distracting to any hunger thoughts. Also, you start to find it's
actually a huge benefit not to have a stomach full of food while you're trying
to run a long distance.

Also, my wife had success starting with putting Coconut/MCT oil in her coffee.
The Bullet Proof coffee folks swear by this and I think most would say they're
still "fasting" and getting the same benefits but now they have a TBSP of oil
in their stomach helping. Might be a step to going full "nothing but coffee"
for 16 hours or whatever you're trying.

~~~
blaser-waffle
I found a little sea salt in the coffee helped -- "admiral style" or
something.

Electrolytes (salt et al) are a commonly recommended aid for the intermittent
fasting folks.

------
rymohr
Look into transcendental meditation, starting with this short overview by
David Lynch:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2UHLMVr4vg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2UHLMVr4vg)

------
fortran77
Learn Rust. You'll think clearer, make fewer errors, and be more productive.
You'll find yourself thinking about programming problems in new, better, ways.

Rust _requires_ you to program well. At the same time, it doesn’t expect you
to know everything before starting. When something is not going to work in a
program, the compiler will not only tell you what is wrong but suggest fixes
to the code.

------
duelingjello
It would be interesting to identify the differences in genomes, epigenomes and
microbiomes between geniuses, average and impaired/neuro-atypical persons.
Maybe then, some un/ethical gene editing/silencing would be possible.

------
leto_ii
> _I figure that most engineers will reject collectivism and be comfortable
> with a libertarian framing._

I realize this is a bit besides the point, but why are the two often presented
as mutually exclusive? Why can't something be done both in a collective and a
libertarian fashion?

~~~
wholepointofcc
Because the core of libertarianism is individuality in opposition to
collectivism.

~~~
armenarmen
Against _forced_ collectivism

------
jpadkins
disappointed based on the headline. I thought I was going to get a list of
nootropics and dosages that have been proven to be effective.

~~~
scarejunba
You will probably be interested in
[https://www.gwern.net/Nootropics](https://www.gwern.net/Nootropics)

------
nkkollaw
Get enough sleep (most important I guess), don't do drunks nor drink alcohol.

I'm only good at _giving_ advice, but I don't think there's any secret besides
those things..?

~~~
pkroll
Physical exercise, is the other one with a definite effect on cognition. Not
really SECRET though.

------
trandana
Frequent exercise and healthy eating.

------
mdszy
So the premise of the article is to literally take mind-altering drugs in
order to become more valuable to your employer.

This is so fucked up.

~~~
fraktl
But that's not the premise. It's your interpretation. I get the whole hate vs
employer and capitalism, but then again - if you're after biohacking yourself
for whatever reason - overclocking machines always comes with a cost, even if
it's human body. Its equilibrium exists for a reason, disrupting the
equilibrium in order to "overclock" a part of it (cognition) must come with
backlash of some sort.

~~~
mdszy
"I think we are the verge of entering this brave new world of work, where
enhancers are essentially mandatory."

It literally is the premise.

