
Vkontakte Founder Flees Russia - azov
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/vkontakte-founder-flees-russia-claims-persecution/498715.html
======
broflosup
He made $260 million in Russia creating a copy of Facebook. He sold his shares
and resigned.

But wait, he didn't _really_ resign. No, it was all an April fools joke! The
investors didn't buy it and fired him.

He claims the site is now under the control of Kremlin because one of its
shareholders is Alisher Usmanov, an alleged ally of Putin. Yet, that guy was a
shareholder for awhile now and Durov never complained about him.

I don't know. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Sounds like someone is trying to
stay relevant by creating controversy and generating hype for a new messaging
system that's supposed to protect you from government's eyes.

~~~
domdip
As far as business in Russia goes, this sounds like a fairly normal course of
events. Almost every large company has someone Putin-connected at the top, and
when the Kremlin wants more control that's how they exercise it. (Either that,
or corrupt court judgments that directly change corporate control.)

Don't be surprised if there are a rash of allegations of corruption,
embezzlement, etc., against Durov. The sad thing about Russia is that they
could be true, they could be part of a conspiracy against Durov, or both.
You'll never know.

~~~
17Crash
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a
mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian
national interest."

\- Winston Churchill

~~~
happyscrappy
True, but I don't think Putin has thought out his Ukraine folly and Russia
will suffer in the long term. The West has become so dominant that Putin can
rattle his rusty sabre and everyone says "meh".

~~~
adventured
I don't think there's any question about dominance, rather, it's about
complacency.

If in the coming years Russia takes Ukraine, and or other countries like
Latvia or Moldova, it'll be due to the West being complacent. Putin - or any
dictator - 'winning' the first four rounds due to other nations having an
attitude of not giving a shit, would match up with what typically has happened
throughout history.

------
jsumrall
I'm not sure how to articulate it, but I find it immensely interesting that
Snowden fled to Russia, while Pavel is fleeing from Russia, both for issues
within similar realms.

~~~
DangerousPie
Similar realms maybe, but I still think there is a huge difference between
exposing your country's secret service operations and running a popular
website. The fact that the former gets you into legal trouble is expected. The
fact that the latter does is very concerning.

~~~
scotty79
He got in trouble for refusal to turn his company into goverment surveillance
device. Much like the ones Snowden exposed so there's some symmetry between
those situations albeit not obvious one.

------
acqq
Imagine Zuckerberg selling his Facebook shares, then claiming to flee from USA
for not willing to give the data from the Facebook to the FBI. Which of course
Facebook (just like any other competitor like Google and Microsoft) gives
since it's all regulated by the law:

[https://www.facebook.com/about/government_requests](https://www.facebook.com/about/government_requests)

Disclaimer: I don't know how much Durov actually sold. Any additional info
welcome.

~~~
krick
The last time it was 12% (which is all he had of Vk stocks). There's no info
of money amount involved, but I susoect if it was something ridiculously small
we'd hear about that already from Durov himself, and estimate of how much it
was worth is $M300-400.

------
RomanPushkin
PAVEL DUROV'S 7 REASONS TO STAY IN RUSSIA (12 March 2014)

[http://rusbase.com/news/author/benhopkins/not-going-
anywhere...](http://rusbase.com/news/author/benhopkins/not-going-anywhere/)

~~~
buildbro
That whole blog post stinks of propaganda

~~~
RomanPushkin
Link to russian version on Pavel's personal page:
[http://vk.com/id1?w=wall1_45616](http://vk.com/id1?w=wall1_45616)

Nobody was forcing him to write this. It is exactly what he thinks about
Russia.

PS But sometimes people can change their opinion in a month :)

~~~
joshstrange
>> Nobody was forcing him to write this. It is exactly what he thinks about
Russia.

Just because it was posted to his person page does not mean he wasn't coerced
into writing/posting it.

~~~
RomanPushkin
Oh. Now I think he has a freedom to say whether he was coerced or not.

------
ChrisNorstrom
Fun Question:

Would any of you consider implementing a last-resort "self destruct system"
into your startup? One that completely and totally obliterates all data
(writing random data to all discs), causes massive amounts of destruction to
the company, permanently dumps databases, deletes all profiles, and sabotages
everything you've ever worked for. You might answer this question differently
depending on what part of the world you're from. Overall, having a way to
instantly invoke "if I can't have it you can't either" might come in handy
when dealing with oppressive governments.

~~~
codesuela
how much of Facebook can you zero out before a sysadmin detects it? Probably
not enough to matter, especially if there are backups which would lead to a
headache for the Ops team but not much more.

------
calcsam
Here's to wishing Snowden had asked Putin about this, rather than giving him
political cover to orchestrate it...

~~~
jnbiche
And lose literally his last place of refuge capable of withstanding U.S.
demands in the world? If he pisses Russia off, he's either in a Russian jail
(horrible) or in US hands (possibly equally horrible). Why do you want this?
Has he not sacrificed enough of his life?

Almost everyone, Russians most of all, know that Russia conducts fearsome mass
surveillance of its own population. It was Snowden's revelations about the
capabilities and intentions of the _U.S._ that came as a big surprise to many,
and so were most needed.

~~~
cvbncvbncgbc
He actually did ask a question directly to Putin( I must admit he has guts )
that is relevant to this debate.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1yH554emkY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1yH554emkY)

------
taco_john
So does anyone have a recap of this chain of events?

From the last time I heard about this, it sounded like he was bullied into
selling his shares to one of Putin's buddies, and stepping down. Then he said
he would like to stay in Russia, now he's fleeing?

------
GuiA
In a dictatorship, if the ones holding power want to take control of an
internet company holding data about the personal lives of hundreds of millions
of people, they do so by ousting the CEO and taking control the hard way.

In a democracy with a free market, if the ones holding power want to take
control of an internet company which holds data about the personal lives of
hundreds of millions of people, they do so by strategically adding members to
the company's board who are part of the oligarchy in place.

Putin's Russia still has a lot to learn! :')

~~~
crazygringo
> _they do so by strategically adding members to the company 's board who are
> part of the oligarchy in place_

Seriously? I'd like you to back that up. Because honestly, that's just
baseless conspiracy-mongering.

I understand people don't like Rice joining Dropbox (which is what I presume
you're referring to) due to her political history and leadership role in the
Iraq war -- which is totally understandable, since she's a public figure with
strong political associations.

But anyone suggesting that her joining Dropbox is not in order to help their
international/governmental expansion (which makes perfect business sense), but
is rather part of a nefarious secret plot to undermine the privacy of Dropbox
users, really has to show at least a shred of evidence for it.

And implying that the level of freedom, or rule of law, in American society is
somehow comparable to the level in Russian society, shows a tremendous amount
of naiveté. American government certainly isn't perfect, but it's worlds apart
from Russia's.

~~~
BetterLateThan
The problem with the West is that you guys _believe_ the law to be the same
for those at the top and at the bottom of the pyramid.

Russians, on the contrary, _know_ that equality belongs on the same bookshelf
with unicorns. That the government does not work the way the government tells
kids it works.

Let me be blunt: To be a seriously profitable business in 2014 you must sleep
with the government.

Those who disagree retire early. Ask PrivacyHarbor.com or that other more
famous email provider who had to quit.

Let me be blunter: The public's Kardashian-Oprah-Fox-Oscar-elections megatrip
must not be disturbed by the reports of how things actually work. There is
simply no need for us to know, because today we can't legally act on this
knowledge.

If history teaches us anything, you will agree with me very soon - but in
retrospect[1]. The lines are being drawn as we speak.

As for Dropbox proper, they are wisely killing 2 birds with 1 Rice —
demonstrating obedience to the ruling class and sending a clear signal to
potential customers: "Choose us if you want to stay in business. We are on the
right side.".

\------------

1 - I am fully aware that you have no idea what I am talking about. It comes
from experience, which you are only about to gain.

------
wil421
I wonder what kind of role the US had in helping aid the Ukraine revolution?
_or_ what role they will have now that its going to be another west vs
Russia/Putin showdown.

------
vitorbaptistaa
Anyone knows how this affects Telegram?

~~~
nomailing
I also would like to know that. it is the only real end-to-end encrypted
whatsapp alternative. I hope it stays that way.

~~~
codesuela
you shouldnt trust closed source software also there are numerous complaints
about their security model. See
[http://www.cryptofails.com/post/70546720222/telegrams-
crypta...](http://www.cryptofails.com/post/70546720222/telegrams-
cryptanalysis-contest) for example. Why not use an open source, cross device
alternative? [https://www.surespot.me/](https://www.surespot.me/)

~~~
cyphunk
Telegram clients (ios,andriod,windows,osx,linux) are open source. Server is
closed but client code and protocol provides user with verified secrecy.

Most criticism seems emotion based but no smoking guns. See comments on
[http://unhandledexpression.com/2013/12/17/telegram-stand-
bac...](http://unhandledexpression.com/2013/12/17/telegram-stand-back-we-know-
maths/) also see response to the post you linked to
[http://telegramteam.tumblr.com/post/70588130319/telegrams-
cr...](http://telegramteam.tumblr.com/post/70588130319/telegrams-
cryptanalysis-contest)

anyway i dont work for them and Surespot also looks nice. though
nodejs+coffeescript at the server worries me a bit.

~~~
codesuela
I think I mixed up Telegram and Threema so my bad and thanks for the
correction/reply.

------
buzaga41
Doesn't say where/how Russia was doing/trying an illegal move...

------
theorique
Maybe the US and Russia could do a prisoner swap - Snowden for Durov?

------
barce
Facebook will be more than happy to get a piece of VK's users.

~~~
kome
Who tried VK, will never go back to Facebook. VK is like the wild west of the
web: you find everything for free, from music, to software, porn, books, etc.

Facebook is a prudish and mildly authoritarian walled garden. VK smells like
freedom. ;)

~~~
krick
Smelled, you mean. I'm not saying that all good of Vk was due to Durov, but
things are obviously getting more complicated slowly since Mail.Ru group rules
it. It can get even worse.

------
teawithcarl
Why has this aritcle (124 points, in 1 hour) only 15th on HN?

Who is flagging this?

Vkontakte is larger than Facebook in Russia, and the CEO has to flee due to
ugly pressure. This isn't germane technology news?

~~~
dang
Users are flagging it and moderators applied a penalty. This is standard
practice. The only question is whether it should be on the front page at all,
given the predictably low quality of the thread.

It's not a question of it being off-topic. It's a question of it spurring
shallow discussion that is high on agitation (noise) and low on reflection
(signal). Consider the distinguishing features of the thread:

(1) A top comment that has no substance and is merely an internet witticism to
fire up the crowd;

(2) A person attempting to contribute substantively accused of being a
propagandist for Putin;

(3) A predictable Snowden argument whose only connection to the story is
"Russia".

~~~
terminado
Given that the name of this site is "Hacker News" and not "Hacker Threads",
one would expect high quality _news_ items to bubble to the top of the main
list, and not necessarily high-quality _discussions_.

You might want to reconsider the premise of flagging topics in order to
facilitate ease of topic moderation. There's more to this site than merely the
user discussion.

Are there any metrics that distinguish the ratio of active thread
participants, versus quiet lurkers, versus users that seldom view the HN
thread at all, and only look at the lists?

On a busy day at work, I'll check the RSS feed frequently, but rarely bother
with HN proper. In short, this means if an article doesn't make it into the
top 30 list, a (possibly-not-insignificant) portion your user base (myself
included) might be effectively disinformed of the topic.

That's kind of important.

~~~
dang
That's a very good point. It's not obvious how to balance this. What would be
better?

The status quo isn't ok, because it violates HN's values of substance and
civility. Not having any threads at all is not an option. Selectively shutting
down threads when they go off the rails seems draconian. Banning people for
making poor contributions to poor threads is wrong; the same people often make
good contributions elsewhere. Thoughts?

~~~
terminado
I don't think there are really any shortcuts. This sort of problem is likely
to always require nuanced and direct human intervention.

Sometimes the acrimony and the controversy is an integral part of a news
story. Without the gossip from the peanut gallery, it might not be news.

Relevant social topics often smell terrible. I think it just comes with the
territory...

------
contingencies
Before scuffing at Russia as a dictatorship, let's get real here. Which
domestically-based, major internet businesses holding vast swathes of social
network data are run by foreigners in any of two other key national markets:
China and the US?

Well, can anyone name a single one? No? Aside from AMDOCS, which seems to have
jumped ship to the US to spruce up its image, or perhaps to a limited extent
(versus China Unipay's domestic, now regional, and increasingly global
settlement network) Mastercard/Visa and SWIFT (for international settlements
only) in China, I can't. Don't forget what happened to Google in China, and
how Schmidt and his political buddy then turned around and visited that great
bastion of human rights, North Korea, in a transparent snub to China. Don't
forget how Microsoft's Skype hands over surveillance keys for its users'
private communications to the Chinese government as a market entry strategy.

Politics (control) and business (profit) really have self-organized in to a
transnational network of mutual back-scratching oligopolies the world over.
Here in China, domestic alternatives to global networks are encouraged
(largely by limiting international bandwidth, more rarely by outright
censorship) to maximise state opportunities for control and surveillance.
Russia seems the same. Perhaps it's time to re-read the preface to
_Cypherpunks_... [http://cryptome.org/2012/12/assange-crypto-
arms.htm](http://cryptome.org/2012/12/assange-crypto-arms.htm)

 _The world is not sliding, but galloping into a new transnational dystopia.
This development has not been properly recognized outside of national security
circles. It has been hidden by secrecy, complexity and scale. The internet,
our greatest tool of emancipation, has been transformed into the most
dangerous facilitator of totalitarianism we have ever seen. The internet is a
threat to human civilization.

These transformations have come about silently, because those who know what is
going on work in the global surveillance industry and have no incentives to
speak out. Left to its own trajectory, within a few years, global civilization
will be a postmodern surveillance dystopia, from which escape for all but the
most skilled individuals will be impossible. In fact, we may already be there.

Recall that states are the systems which determine where and how coercive
force is consistently applied.

The question of how much coercive force can seep into the platonic realm of
the internet from the physical world is answered by cryptography and the
cypherpunks’ ideals.

As states merge with the internet and the future of our civilization becomes
the future of the internet, we must redefine force relations.

If we do not, the universality of the internet will merge global humanity into
one giant grid of mass surveillance and mass control._

The sad thing is, as hyperbolic as this can sound to the uninitiated, it's
reality.

