
Who is the greatest knife steel metallurgist of all time? - severine
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/06/29/who-is-the-greatest-knife-steel-metallurgist-of-all-time/
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stx
I would not call him a metallurgist but this guy has tested a bunch of steels
using an unscientific rope cut test and documented them in a spreadsheet. He
was the first one that convinced me to spend over $100 for a cpm-s30v knife
and it was way better then anything I had before in edge retention.

His data cant be that bad though because I built a model to predict the number
of cuts for a blade using edge angle and metal compounds (no real way to take
into account heat treat though). It was relatively accurate for the less
exotic steels. I should really share that with the world.

[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b_rNfdJnL9oyn-
JoL9yU...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b_rNfdJnL9oyn-
JoL9yUHhUmDLAP1hJ1dN_0q5G4tug/edit#gid=1607644856)

He also records videos of himself and posts them to his youtube channel along
with other knife reviews.

[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdICfnpxD9uzHLaSr3DN55g](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdICfnpxD9uzHLaSr3DN55g)

~~~
Gertig
As someone who has made their own knife from scratch(ish) this channel is
gold!

~~~
ethbro
For anyone who hasn't, would highly recommend. Railroad spikes are cheap and
easy to hammer. Not great steel, but great for practicing metalwork.

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ChuckMcM
Great article.

A long time ago I started collecting exemplars of edged weapons (swords,
knives, axes) for no reason other than I found the aesthetic interesting. But
in collecting these things you may find, as I did, that just looking at them
gets to be boring so you start reading about them. When was this kind of sword
invented? Who used it? For what? What replaced it? What came before it? Etc.

Before too long you may find that you are looking at two parallel universes
that are interlocked by expressions of intent. In one universe are people
figuring out what makes metal have the properties it does and how can I change
them? And the other universe is people looking at what metal can do "now" and
applying it to their creative process in weaponry.

It is an amazing tapestry of complexity behind the simple appreciation of
"that's a cool sword/knife"

~~~
ethbro
Naval construction history has odd connections too, as one might imagine:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp_armour](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp_armour)

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causality0
Several years ago there used to be a site called KnifeTests where a heavyset
man dressed like a serial killer put a variety of cheap and very expensive
knives through horrific levels of abuse. Using the tip to dig through a 2x4,
hammering it through a steel pipe, putting in a vice and standing on it,
bending the blade back and forth, slicing a variety of materials including
concrete.

The one thing that really stood out was INFI steel. That stuff may as well be
magic. It's honestly hard to even get anything made with it these days but if
I had to trust my survival to one metal INFI would be it.

~~~
lioeters
> INFI is a proprietary steel and heat-treat protocol developed by Busse
> Combat Knife Co.

[https://www.bussecombat.com/about-our-steel-
infi/](https://www.bussecombat.com/about-our-steel-infi/)

~~~
causality0
Good to see they're back to normal operations. Last time I looked them up a
few years ago they didn't actually have any knives for sale.

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lioeters
Not steel, but I was impressed to learn about the physics of obsidian knives
produced during the Mayan civilization:

> When skillfully worked, the edges of prismatic blade made from obsidian can
> reach the molecular level, i.e., the material has a cutting edge that is
> only one molecule thick.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian_use_in_Mesoamerica#ci...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian_use_in_Mesoamerica#cite_note-5)

~~~
ethbro
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_knife#Modern_use](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_knife#Modern_use)

~~~
lioeters
Fascinating!

> [Glass knives] were once the blade of choice for the ultra-thin sectioning
> required in transmission electron microscopy because they can be
> manufactured by hand.

> ..Some labs still use glass knives because they are significantly less
> expensive than diamond knives. A common practice is to use a glass knife to
> cut the block which contains the sample to near the location of the specimen
> to be examined.

> Then the glass knife is replaced by a diamond blade for the actual ultrathin
> sectioning. This extends the life of the diamond blade which is used only
> when its superior performance is critical.

> Obsidian, a naturally occurring volcanic glass, can also be used to make
> sharp glass knives; _obsidian surgical scalpels_ are available commercially.

~~~
ethbro
I have family in pathology. Labs do a lot of sample sectioning before
microscopy. Thin enough to stain and visualize internal structures (think
onion skin).

PS: Never mention anything about this around TSA.

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gautamcgoel
I'm a huge knife steel nerd, so it's cool to see this article get some love on
HN. Currently, I own knives in S35VN, M390, Cruwear, and 52100, all Spyderco.
If you've never carried an EDC knife before I suggest you pick up a Spyderco
Manix or PM2/PM3 and try it out. There's a lot of engineering and
craftsmanship that goes into making a quality knife which I think HN readers
could appreciate. Also, they're just handy to have around.

~~~
ftio
Genuine question, coming from the perspective of a city-dwelling office
worker.

I get the value of having a knife like this in the house (to open and break
down cardboard boxes, etc). Why do you need to carry one around? Can you tell
me about the last time you used it outside the house?

I'm _definitely_ over-indexing on my own experience here. Would love to have
my mind opened to how carrying a knife regularly might improve my day. :)

~~~
jeffbee
I carry a benchmade knife everywhere. Why? Because all hell breaks loose if
you have three kids and only one nectarine. Not that you need a fancy-ass
knife for such work.

Other field-knife activities include “what does the inside of this seed look
like?” and “I got a splinter!”

The only issue is even though the state of California permits them, the
university of California forbids carrying knives, and there is one of those
right in the middle of my city.

~~~
User23
Last I knew, in California you can legally walk around with a sword, so long
it’s in a sheath hanging from your waist and not concealed.

~~~
jeffbee
I believe that's true. You can openly carry anything. The University system
claims to forbid any folding knife with a blade that locks open (i.e. most any
pocketknife) and any blade longer than 2.5 inches, carried openly or
concealed.

~~~
eeperson
That's why I like to carry a Spyderco Dragonfly. A small (<2.5in) knife that
is legal pretty much anywhere but feels like a much bigger knife when you use
it.

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morelisp
The greatest knife steel metallurgist of all time would surely be the one that
doesn't even bother with steel or metallurgy anymore.

[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg3qsVzHeUt5_cPpcRtoaJQ](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg3qsVzHeUt5_cPpcRtoaJQ)

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mcguire
The unknown dude sometime around 2000-1500 BCE who discovered you could get
iron from ore?

~~~
dragontamer
It should be noted that iron was still around before iron-ore mining. But
metallurgists back then had to wait for meteorites to fall from the sky and
craft those (King Tut's meteorite-iron sword).

But yes, the leap from copper/bronze (which could be discovered by simply
dropping rocks into a fire, since copper melts at low enough temperatures) vs
iron, which is a process that requires much hotter temperatures + forging
techniques, is huge.

Learning to mix metals into alloys would eventually lead to the discovery of
steel (mix iron + wood). Not as good as modern steel, but trial-and-error
would get a process down over the centuries for sure.

The "Iron Forge" seems to be the hardest step in the whole tech tree. Its a
huge leap, no matter how I think about it. Maybe some old pre-history
metallurgist was lucky enough to play with meteorite-iron and noticed
similarities to ore somewhere else.

~~~
Sharlin
Bronze was revolutionary in other ways. Sure, copper occurs in native metallic
form, but even once you find out that mixing it with certain minerals yields a
much better metal, you have other problems. Namely that the mineral that gives
the best alloy, cassiterite, or SiO2, only occurs in large quantities
thousands of kilometers away from your copper deposits. Trade between regions
that had hitherto had little contact became a thing.

Iron, as known to the ancients, was in many ways inferior to bronze. Iron with
low carbon content is malleable but soft, whereas iron with too much carbon is
hard but brittle. It took a long time for people to painstakingly learn to
make iron that was _consistently_ as good as bronze, and even longer to learn
how to further refine iron into consistent-quality steel, a process that also
required huge amounts of energy compared to bronzemaking.

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RcouF1uZ4gsC
Question for the steel and knife enthusiasts.

With modern metallurgy and machining techniques, could you design a sword that
if transported back in time, would be looked at as a magical weapon (perhaps
due to its strength, weight, cutting ability, etc?). What would you design?

~~~
hchz
Since the art of swordfighting is lost, you'd possibly engineer an incredible
"long knife" that a professional swordsman would regard as unsuitable for
combat or of mediocre value.

~~~
boomboomsubban
We have enough old swords from when swordfighting was important that we should
have some idea of what traits were valued.

~~~
hchz
It's not about making a pretty similar copy in terms of weight and balance. OP
is asking about a weapon so superior it was viewed as magical.

Let's think about this in terms of the standard engineering design-V: if you
have nobody available for validating the design, how could you produce a
product that you know to be so technologically superior that it appears to be
"magic"?

------
nickbauman
What about the unsung blacksmith of Japan who basically created a variant of
Damascus Steel to make the swords for Samurai starting around 1100 AD?

~~~
catalogia
They did great work with the materials they had available, but the materials
they had were quite poor. Tamahagane is a very poor steel which requires a
great deal of forging to work the slag inclusions out. The extensive folding
was done to purify the steel; with a higher quality steel doing that isn't
necessary. Contemporary Middle East and European metallurgists had better
material to work with and their best steel, crucible spring steel, was better
than the best Japanese steel.

~~~
henrikschroder
I think it's sort of funny that people are idolizing medieval Japanese
swordsmiths.

"They folded their blades 200 times!!!"

Yes, because they had to, because the source material was pretty crap
comparatively. Not because they were some kind of magical elven runesmiths
making densetsu katanas.

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lacker
I have never interacted with "knife nerds" before, but I sense their presence
here. I want to get a good knife to take camping, anyone have a
recommendation?

~~~
vvanders
Camping knife? Unless you don't have a multitool a leatherman will be far more
useful and is a usable knife in its own.

Most EDC(Every Day Carry) knives are sufficient for most of what would come up
camping. If you're going to carry anything bigger a hatchet is a lot more
handy.

That said if you're looking for something decent Benchmade, Spyderco and Buck
all make solid knives. I'm partial to Benchmade mostly because their locking
mechanism works with a single hand in a way that doesn't put your fingers in
the path of the blade and can be used with gloves.

535, 970 and Griptilian are all fantastic knives that will take a beating and
are easy to carry. I have a 535 that I use on the farm and is more than strong
enough for anything I throw at it.

A knife that you have on you more often and easy to carry is better than a
heavier or larger one. Some blade lengths are also illegal in certain cities
so staying under 3" is a good idea. I usually carry a light pocket knife,
flashlight and small-ish multitool which covers most of the bases.

~~~
mrexroad
This. I’ve had a Benchmade 943 in my pocket every day for more than a decade,
but still pack a multitool when camping. Had other knives prior, but kinda
lost interest in anything new after getting the 943. Except when wearing a
suit... still wouldn’t mind finding a blade a bit more suit-able.

------
Havoc
I was expecting more exotic names frankly. That's my ignorance speaking
perhaps, but to me top metallurgist would be Damascus steel and maybe Japanese
swords?

~~~
tudorw
[https://blog.knife-depot.com/link-between-samurai-swords-
and...](https://blog.knife-depot.com/link-between-samurai-swords-and-japanese-
nuclear-plants/)

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parsimo2010
Wow, the author went pretty deep on this. I was expecting something like,
“Bohler wins because M390 is best hurr dee hurr.” That’s the typical fare on
knife forums at least (but substitute whichever super steel is your current
favorite). But this piece really earns the “knife steel nerd” name and has a
pretty solid history and covers a lot of technological developments over the
years.

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cycrutchfield
I'm not an EDC knife kind of guy, but I have spent a lot of time and money on
kitchen knives. SG-2 (aka R2) is pretty much the best that I have tried in
terms of edge retention, ease of sharpening, and convenience (i.e. rust-
resistant).

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JohnL4
Why is this even a topic on HN, with 77 (+ mine) comments?

~~~
dang
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

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bullen
Japanese carbon-steel (should be called carbon-iron really because they rust)
knives are way superior to anything these clowns made!

~~~
jimnotgym
Superior in what way? I can imagine there are environments where the stainless
properties of some of the steels in the article offset the properties of any
mega sharp rusty iron knife.

Japanese swords are amazing objects, but can chip when hit by another sword
and are effectively ruined. European swords were renowned for their
comparative toughness, however.

~~~
dmoy
Corollary: there's a lot higher parrying frequency in modern FIE-style fencing
compared to modern kendo, which partially carries over because of the
historically more brittle steel used in Japan.

