
A Letter from Tim Cook on Maps - j4mie
http://www.apple.com/letter-from-tim-cook-on-maps/
======
eggbrain
What I want to know is -- why did they release the app in the state that it
was in vs partnering with someone like Microsoft?

Let's assume that Apple's contract with Google was ending soon, and that
Google had failed to deliver features for Apple (turn by turn, etc), meaning
Apple wanted to go a different direction.

Sure, Apple then started buying up mapping companies, building their own
product, but they must have known they were on a tight schedule. My question
is -- why didn't they partner with Microsoft to use Bing maps?

Microsoft gets a huge win in that suddenly 40 million people are using their
service. Apple gets a win in that they have a pretty comparative product out
of the gate to Google Maps, and it gives them time to build up their own
service.

But instead, Apple released maps that had 1/3rd the quality of the maps they
had before. Where's the logic in that?

~~~
freyr
1/3 the quality? Have you used the maps? I agree that they're not amazing, but
in my experience the complaints about low quality seem overblown.

It's a first generation product. By putting it out there and getting actual
user feedback, this should accelerate the development.

~~~
eggbrain
Maps become exponentially better the closer they get to accurate.

Even if Apple has, let's say, 90% of the map data/information that Google
does, the minute you are sent to the wrong location, or to a store that
doesn't exist, or try to get transit directions and can't, or get routed via
the most convoluted route possible to your destination, the Maps app has
failed.

~~~
r00fus
Maps is a smartphone killer app - I remember my friend being able to map (in a
rudimentary displkay) nearby restaurants on a 2004 windows mobile phone and
thinking how awesome that was. Just like I was amazed when the iPhone
completely blew away the competition in 2007.

However, is it a mission-critical app? What percentage of the userbase
actually _needs_ maps on a day to day basis? What did you do in 2005 when your
GPS completely failed? You call the destination... it's not like you don't
have a phone in your hand. Failing that, you ask a nearby stranger.

I presume Apple went ahead because Maps is likely less important to their
userbase than, say, the Music app and definitely less critical than the
browser.

~~~
jarek
> However, is it a mission-critical app? What percentage of the userbase
> actually needs maps on a day to day basis? What did you do in 2005 when your
> GPS completely failed?

It's not "mission-critical," but by that criterion neither is any part of iOS
that's not talk and text and maaaybe basic web browsing. Mapping is surely one
of the bigger raisons d'être for smartphones, otherwise people might as well
buy an S40 Nokia.

------
eddieroger
A fun anecdote regarding Maps.

I was talking with a friend of mine last night on the iPhone. She was
complaining that her iPhone was working poorly, and she was frustrated with
it. I asked if she had updated to iOS 6 yet, since sometimes a restore cycle
can clear things up. She told me, no, she wasn't, because she heard maps were
terrible. I said, "did you hear they are terrible, or have you used them and
think they're terrible?" She said she heard only. Interestingly, though, she
said she had been using turn-by-turn with "a voice telling her when to turn."
I asked her to go to Settings and check, and sure enough, she had updated and
actually liked new Maps.

I don't deny that new Maps aren't at the level that GMaps were, but they're
not really that terrible, either. Unless you required a feature that is gone
now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad, at least in my
experience, and has improved since the betas.

~~~
mikeash
Un-fucking-believable. The CEO of Apple has come right out and admitted that
Maps is sub-par, and the Apple fans are _still_ trying to pretend that the
problems are not real.

~~~
scott_s
Sure the problem are real - for _other_ people. But not for me. When I
upgraded, I expected maps to suck. To my surprise, moving the map around was
smoother, it was easier to read, and the display for directions are better.

I also think that's why Apple released it: there are genuine improvements in
some areas, but they underestimated how important the missing features are to
some people. For some people, the transit features are _the reason_ to use
Maps, so it's obviously inferior for them.

~~~
mikeash
Well, nobody is saying that Maps is awful for everybody. A lot of people are,
however, saying that Maps is awful for roughly nobody, and that the
complainers are either Apple haters, influenced by the media, never actually
tried the app, etc.

~~~
scott_s
The person you were replying to, however, was _not_ saying that, so trying to
make that point in reply to him is a non-sequitur.

~~~
mikeash
"I don't deny that new Maps aren't at the level that GMaps were, but they're
not really that terrible, either. Unless you required a feature that is gone
now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad, at least in my
experience, and has improved since the betas."

How much clearer does it need to be? He comes out and says, right there, that
the parts that aren't outright missing are fine. This is not my experience,
nor is it the experience of many other people I've talked to.

~~~
scott_s
But that is _my_ experience, and was exactly what I said up top. For how I use
Maps, the new version is better in every way; I'm actually quite impressed
with the animation of scaling and moving around on the map, and with the
clarity of features (roads, parks, rivers, etc.).

~~~
mikeash
Yes, you are talking about your experience, and that's fine. eddieroger,
however, was talking about _everybody's_ experience, and claiming that the new
Maps is just fine, for everybody, unless you need one of the features that's
outright missing. That is simply false.

~~~
scott_s
I have yet to hear someone complain about Maps other than missing features -
both personally, and observed through chatter online. So his comment gels with
everything I know. I'm curious to learn about people complaining about
something other than missing features, so if you can point me to them or say
what your experiences are, I'd like to know.

~~~
mikeash
My experience went basically like this:

1\. Check out the location of my new house. Apple's data is years old and
predates the whole development. The area is new, but not THAT new. Google and
OpenStreetMap both have it fine.

2\. Use it to navigate to a park I'd never been to before. Get told "you have
arrived" while going under an interstate overpass. Find a driveway to pull off
in, spend about ten minutes screwing around with the park's web site verifying
the address, finding a better map, etc., finally figure out that the app sent
me about half a mile in the wrong direction down this road. Google, of course,
has the correct location for the address.

3\. Use it to navigate to a restaurant I'd never been to before. "You have
arrived" happens in front of a tiny strip mall with no restaurants. Wander
around the area for a while and finally find it. Later on I check to see what
happened, and it's pretty incredible. Maps had been opened with a link of the
form, Restaurant@latitude,longitude. Stripping off the "Restaurant@" portion
gives the correct location. With the restaurant name in it, Maps ignored the
lat/lon and preferred its POI data, which was just plain wrong.

At that point, I gave up on the thing. Note that this is not the sequence of
bad experience that were interspersed with good ones. _These are the only
experiences I had in using the thing,_ aside from two trivial tests navigating
to and from day care which I do almost every day anyway.

Many other people I've talked to report similar experiences. Addresses are
misplaced, POIs are misplaced, stuff is mislabeled or severely out of date,
etc.

~~~
scott_s
That sucks. Looking at what you said and others in the thread, it sounds like
the biggest problem is the data. I've done a bunch of spot-checks of locations
near me, but I'm in the NYC area. I assume the NYC area would get a lot of
attention for map data.

(By the way, the above is response is much more constructive than saying "un-
fucking-believeable" in response to someone who is not aware of problems.)

------
bdfh42
This is not just an "end user" problem it is a developer problem. Our "hyper
local" app looks (and is) terrible on iOS6 but runs just fine on iOS5 (with
Google mapping).

iOS was the choice for the lead mobile platform but with iOS6 take up levels
running high we may have to switch to Android to be able to demonstrate all of
our ideas.

~~~
chucknelson
Looks terrible? I don't think the look of the new maps is under much
criticism. I thought the general consensus was "pretty but not as functional"?

~~~
ruswick
Although the app's lack of proper search and laughable location plotting, my
chief issue with the new Maps is the aesthetic, which I consider to be
unequivocally inferior to Google Maps.

~~~
nicholassmith
I swing the other way, I think it looks much better in many ways. I much
prefer the typography and a few other design touches.

~~~
mikeash
I agree. The new Maps looks really nice, it just isn't very useful. IMO it's a
great example of form over function.

------
drewjoh
I found this week the true extent of how terrible the new iOS Maps is, when I
needed to find a hospital. We needed to go to the ER in the middle of the
night, and were stuck waiting at a particular hospital that was nearest to us.

I knew there was another, better hospital with a better reputation down the
freeway (perhaps 5 miles) and wanted to call to ask what their wait time was.
I searched "hospital" and the nearest one provided was 25 miles away. I knew
where the one I wanted was and it was no where to be found on iOS Maps.

I also searched for "emergency clinics" in various naming forms, knowing of
the ones I would try first… and again, came up empty of all the ones that I
knew existed.

I now have a shortcut to Google Maps on my home screen and will only use iOS
maps for turn-by-turn directions. I was very frustrated to begin with that
night, and Apple disaster of a Map app didn't help.

------
digitalengineer
Crazy thing is according to TomTom there is no problem in the actual map
_data_ they provided. (I think they're right. I've driven across Europe
without major problems using TomTom. There were no complaints about the TomTom
App according to the 4.5 star reviews). According to TomTom, Appel combines
their data with data from other sources and Apple has a problem
combining/rendering the data...

[http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/tomtom-apple-
maps-...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/tomtom-apple-maps-
idUSL5E8KLHPX20120921)

~~~
arrrg
I don’t think turn-by-turn (what TomTome provides) is the problem. That seems
to work like a charm (at least it does for me). I get excellent TomTom-level
quality here in Germany, plus the great (best of breed) traffic info from
TomTom.

For me, search and POIs are slightly dysfunctional and some labels are out of
whack – both of that, however, doesn’t seem to have any impact on my turn-by-
turn experience. So I can believe that TomTom is not to blame here.

~~~
jmelloy
It also could suggest that the .1 version will be a significant upgrade if the
underlying date's good but it's being parsed wrong/deprioritized for OSM
data/etc.

Better than if the underlying data is wrong, anyway.

------
robomartin
What to say? The fact that such a public letter had to be issued means that
there's a lot of push-back. Apple just doesn't do that. In fact, I don't
remember any software company doing this. I could be wrong. This feels
unprecedented.

Not one person posting on HN and the many blogs really knows what happened
behind the scenes. Apple engineers are not known for being dumb. Someone had
to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know.

So the question might very well be: Why did they do it?

This couldn't have been out of spite. Just to kick Google off the platform.
One just doesn't do that. Maintaining a complex code-base such as iOS is
difficult enough. Adding to that the friction of delivering a substandard
product is not something one does without very good reasons.

Conjecture is all we have from the outside. My humble guess is that it had to
come down to a business deal they did not want to make. The details of the
deal are not important. Who was right and who was wrong isn't important. What
is important is that whatever they had in front of them convinced Apple
management that it they had no choice but to, effectively, downgrade the next
release with Maps.

I already know of a lot of non-tech people, particularly outside the US, who
are livid about Maps. After dutifully upgrading their devices to iOS 6 they
discover that Maps are, in their words, "crap", "useless", "unreliable", "a
joke", "not accurate", "una mierda" (shit), etc. The reason for the strong
feelings is that, let's face it, if a good tool such as Google Maps is
available to you, you might tend to use it.

And a lot of people would use it all the time. My own wife relies on Google
Maps all the time. Thankfully she was wise enough to marry a geek who promptly
told her not to upgrade her iPhone 4S to iOS 6 and not to swap it out for an
iPhone 5. In fact, not one person in my family will do either of those things.
And that is the case --that has to be the case-- for millions of people at
this point.

This is the data we are not getting and that Apple will probably never
release. I own eight iOS devices. Not one of them will be upgraded to iOS 6.
In fact, the upgrades stop here until either Maps starts to get really good
marks. And, of course, we probably would have purchased at least three iPhone
5's. Not happening. I'll get one for development but it will not be activated.

How many millions are in this boat? If someone is a heavy Google Maps user it
makes no sense to get an iPhone 5. What's wrong with a 4S? Nothing. Use their
website you say? Not the same, most would say.

As a developer there's a lesson that needs reinforcing every-so-often. What
better way to reinforce it than to see a tech giant make some of the mistakes
lesser companies make: If you can at all help it, don't base your product on
someone else's technology. Don't make someone else's technology such an
important part of your offering that not having them will hurt you. Of course,
sometimes you have no choice.

As a user and a developer I view iOS 6 as a significant, if not huge, step
backwards. Between Maps and the eviscerated app store one has to ask that
cliche-ish question: What were they thinking?

Wouldn't we like to know.

~~~
markerdmann
When people say Maps is a "huge step backwards", are they actually using the
product? I mostly use my phone for driving directions, and the addition of
turn-by-turn navigation has been a huge step forward. Maybe I'm the one iPhone
user in the world who thinks Maps is awesome, but that seems unlikely. It
seems more likely that this is just another case of the "vocal minority" being
amplified by uncritical journalists. Remember what happened when Facebook
first released the News Feed? :-)

~~~
BitMastro
This is a more scientific approach to the problem
<http://www.mtonic.com/applemaps/>

~~~
pohl
Awesome. This is exactly the kind of quantification I've been hoping would
start to happen.

Someone submitted this link for separate discussion.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4587026>

------
catfish
At Orange, we strive to make world-class products that deliver the best
experience possible to our customers. Except when we feel that someone else is
doing it better in which case we strive to eliminate the obviously superior
product from our walled garden.

With the launch of our shitty Maps last week, we fell short on this
commitment. We are sorry for the frustration this has caused our customers but
we are doing everything we can to make shitty Maps better, except to provide
you what you want right now, a working map.

We launched shitty Maps initially with the first version of Orange. As time
progressed, we wanted to provide our customers with even better shitty Maps
including features such as really bad directions, never understands your voice
integration, Flyover the wrong location and vector-based maps.

In order to do this, we had to create a new version of shitty Maps from the
ground up, and though its not ready for prime time we are so worried about our
competition that we dumped them prematurely from our walled garden and forced
this abomination on you.

There are already more than 100 million Orange devices using the new shitty
Maps, with more and more joining us every day. And you know that this is
because we reduced your choice to our inferior product, which is what we have
the right to do since we own your phone and you don't.

In just over a week, Orange users with the new shitty Maps have already
searched for nearly half a billion locations and some actually did find a few
locations. The more our customers use our Maps the sooner we will make another
billion dollars and we greatly appreciate the fact you have no real choice now
that you have our phone in your pocket.

While we’re improving shitty Maps, you can try alternatives by downloading map
apps from the Orange Store, but good luck finding them as we also created a
new nightmare in our Apps store that makes replacing our shitty apps more
difficult than ever. We know that the huge majority of Orange users won't have
a clue as to what we mean by bookmarking, and of course that is just fine with
us. Just use our maps anyway, just like we planned.

Everything we do at Orange is aimed at making our products the only product
you use. We know that you expect that from us, and we will keep working non-
stop until EVERYONE in our walled garden is tired of the BS and gets an
Android.

~~~
fredoliveira
I don't see how your comment contributes to any meaningful discussion of this
topic. I truly don't.

~~~
catfish
Satire is a contribution. Where those in power fail the truth test, satire has
served since the dawn of print, to cast the light of truth on the half truths
of the powerful.

~~~
enraged_camel
Except satire is supposed to be funny. Your post isn't.

~~~
heyitsnick
Please do not post subjective opinions stated as fact. Personally I found it
amusing. The upvote/downvote system will effectively aggregate these
subjective opinions and display the comment appropriately.

Your post, however, just comes across to me as trollish.

~~~
enraged_camel
Pretty ironic that I reached 500 karma with the post that you call "trollish".
Now I can downvote both the original shitty satire and your silly accusations!

(Just kidding, of course.)

------
jballanc
I think what they say about "Internet time" and the length of people's
memories might be correct. This is, in fact, very in keeping with Apple's
character. Apple doesn't often screw up, but when they do, they will
definitely own up to it. (Keeping in mind that your buddy Joe or some high-
priced analyst claiming that Apple screwed up is not the same thing as them
actually screwing up...)

See, for example, four years ago when they issued an apology _and_ a free
account extension for the launch of MobileMe:
<http://www.macworld.com/article/1134530/mobileme.html>

------
rodh
Apple has built a reputation of only releasing products that were absolutely
completed and quality controlled. From my understanding, the company ethos has
been that any defect, no matter how small, would result in the product being
delayed.

Speaking from my own perspective, admission or not, I think it's the break in
that expectation that has me disappointed.

~~~
steve8918
Maybe from a hardware point of view, but not from a software point of view.
Case in point, iTunes is one of the worst pieces of software I've ever had to
use. They could have made it so much easier to add music, etc, but it is
probably the worst piece of software that I'm FORCED to use.

~~~
DougBTX
I'm at a loss, how could it be easier to add music? From files, it is drag and
drop, from CD's, it is one click "Import".

~~~
steve8918
In order to add an mp3 onto my iPhone I need to: start up iTunes and wait for
it to load; plug in my iPhone to my iMac; find the song and drag and drop it
into iTunes; click on Sync, and then wait for Sync to finish everything. If I
haven't synced my iPhone in a while, then it could take 10+ minutes, since it
has to backup, copy new Applications, etc.

What it _should_ be is: plug my iPhone into my Mac; my iPhone should show up
in Finder or on the Desktop; Find my mp3 and drag and drop it onto my iPhone
icon; unplug my iPhone. I have no idea why I need to interact with iTunes at
all.

------
tammer
I don't think I realized what an actual issue this is... Cook isn't speaking
to people who have been following this debacle since the beta, he's speaking
to people who think the only way to get location info is through the "maps"
button on their phone.

Let's hope, for the sake of those people at least, Apple can get some better
data.

------
steve8918
From a purely competitive standpoint, this is why Google should be releasing
their Google Maps app immediately, and if Apple drags their feet, they should
launch a lawsuit to force them to do so.

First off, it would probably be a really good PR move for Google.

Second, if Apple dragged their feet in terms of approval and Google sued them,
it might force some changed in terms of how anti-competitively the App store
behaves. I could totally see the Justice Dept or FTC stepping in the way they
did with Microsoft.

Lastly, if Google added their maps app, it would immediately supplant the
Apple app, and a lot less people would use Apple Maps. This would give Apple
less data to make their maps better, and keep them at a competitive
disadvantage for years.

~~~
salman89
I disagree.

PR move wise, they've already won the PR battle. Everybody who owns an iPhone
5 or everyone who has considered buying an iPhone 5 now knows that Google (and
now Android) has a superior maps offering. By offering a Google Maps app on
the iPhone, it just gives customers one reason less to stick with Android.

It will be hard for Google to prove the anti-competitiveness of the App store.
It would be quite interesting though - Android has the ability to use
different App stores, while Apple certainly does not. It sounds unfair, but I
wonder if a court feels the same way.

Pretty sure Apple will be at a disadvantage for years regardless. They've
never been a data company as it is, and there's no reason to believe that they
could suddenly go out and put together their own maps like Google has done.
Better maps does not necessarily equate to having more usage data either.

~~~
steve8918
They've won the current PR battle, but if they build a Google Maps for iOS,
they will win the next PR battle.

If Apple is reluctant to approve a Google Maps app, and Google claims that
they have the app ready and waiting but Apple won't approve it, customers will
be pissed. This would put even more pressure on Apple.

Google could absolutely prove anti-competitiveness of the App store, by simply
releasing the app that existed on iOS5. If it's the exact same app, with no
new features, Google could ask the question why it was good enough for iOS5,
but not iOS6. If Apple is restricting its availability simply because Apple
has their own maps app, it could definitely be shown as being anti-
competitive, and if the DOJ or FTC started to investigate this, Apple would be
in heaps of trouble. Apple would be stupid to risk getting a decision forced
down their throats by the government, a la Microsoft.

The one thing that Google may be doing is waiting until after Thanksgiving or
Christmas in order to release their new App. They might be letting the bad
press over Maps could hurt sales of iPhone 5, and then releasing an app after
January.

~~~
salman89
I guess I'm just failing to see what Google has to gain, and I feel that they
have more to lose.

Right now they have gained a key competitive advantage in the minds of
consumers. Even iPhone fanboys will have a hard time arguing that Google does
not have a better maps app.

What will they have to gain by proving the App store anticompetitive? Google
will not make any sort of money from the app anyways.

By releasing a Maps app for iPhone, Google will basically giving away for free
what Apple had been (likely) paying them for before. How does that make sense?

~~~
eyko
Nobody knows if apple is paying them and it all seems like it was free for
Apple (but would have been renegotiated in 2013). Google makes money from
users using google maps, not by apple paying google to use google maps.

[http://www.quora.com/How-much-does-Apple-pay-Google-to-
use-t...](http://www.quora.com/How-much-does-Apple-pay-Google-to-use-their-
maps)

------
lewisflude
As far as I'm concerned, apology accepted. [ assuming this is an apology of
course ]

~~~
jug6ernaut
An apology should never have to be inferred, with that said expecting a full
out apology from apple is asking a lot, not that it isn't warranted.

~~~
fredoliveira
No need to infer. From the letter:

 _"We are extremely sorry"_

~~~
lewisflude
Sorry for themselves?

~~~
arrrg
“With the launch of our new Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment.
We are extremely sorry for the frustration this has caused our customers and
we are doing everything we can to make Maps better.”

That’s a proper apology. No dodging, no sidestepping, no shifting of the
blame. We screwed up, we are sorry for the problems that caused, we are doing
everything we can to fix this.

~~~
lewisflude
It's very well written, but I don't doubt that the entire message came
directly from the PR department. Anyway, the proof is in the pudding, as they
say, so let's see what they do.

~~~
arrrg
Uhm, sure. I’m not sure what your point is, though. Of course Tim Cook has
people to help him write that. Of course he didn’t just walk into his office,
wrote this and sent it off without consulting anyone. Do you think the PR
department is incapable of writing apologies?

~~~
lewisflude
tl;dr Glad they apologised, hope they put their money where their mouth is
because I love the idea of an Apple-made maps application.

------
ajanuary
> While we’re improving Maps, you can try alternatives by > downloading map
> apps from the App Store like Bing, MapQuest > and Waze, or use Google or
> Nokia maps by going to their > websites and creating an icon on your home
> screen to their > web app.

I was quite surprised they listed competitors. Is this an unusual move or a
normal/expected thing to do in a case like this?

------
verelo
This is pathetic. I'm surprised no one has hit them up with a false
advertising claim over their phone not providing what they wanted (directions,
in many cases transit directions)

I've not heard a single person using apple maps say "this is good", every
single person states its a downgrade. Apple need to get their act together and
realize what they've done is lost a major set of consumer confidence here and
should do everything in their power to set the situation right.

I for one was about to do the switch from Android to iphone with the iphone 5
coming out. After seeing apple maps, i've decided that i'll probably just buy
the new Nexus when it comes out. Maps are the most important app on my phone
besides the dialer and text messaging...not having maps thats anything less
than what i've got today is simply not something i'm willing to negotiate.

Google will and should do nothing, this is all completely in their favor at
this point. IOS might just have taken its first fatal blow.

~~~
Someone
For what it is worth, IOS maps has more recent satellite images and more
recent road maps from the centre of the city where I live than maps.google.com
(the data from maps.google.com will happily show a continuous road that,
nowadays, is only an entry to a parking garage)

The IOS 5 app has what looks like the same satellite data as maps.google.com,
but even older road topology (it lacks the detour you need to not end up in
that garage)

So, from the (tiny) part I checked, IOS 6 has better maps than IOS 5. It may
be worse on average, but how would a user objectively evaluate a map app that
covers the world?

~~~
verelo
I think the lack of transit directions, poor blending of map images
([http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/505cae6969bedd427a0...](http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/505cae6969bedd427a000012-413-310/apple-
maps.png)) and the overall lack of detail is a massive reason to consider it a
downgrade.

If you're honestly happier with this product then thats cool, but i'm not.

~~~
Someone
Happier? No. For my uses, both apps are adequate. I do not use maps apps
often, and I if do, it is the old-fashioned way: look at the map before I
leave, possibly make a screen dump to make sure I'll have some map avaiable on
the road, and use that screen dump if necessary to get where I need to be. I
will, at some time, miss street view, though.

Reading discussions, I also learnt and verified that iOS 6 location search is
lousy (I think it doesn't know enough about statitics, or doesn't have enough
statistical data (yet?). If one searches for, e.g. 'central station', it will
happily return hits such as 'Starbucks central station' or 'the X hotel,
central station' in favor of the actual train station. It should know that,
when in doubt, it should go for the most often sought for hits)

------
stephenhuey
Someone was telling me only a couple of days ago about a time when Google Maps
guided her to a nonexistent building out in the middle of nowhere next to some
farm field in Pennsylvania. That story and some of my own Google Maps Fail
experiences wouldn't scare me off of Google Maps since the tool, although
sometimes mistaken, is much better than what I used to navigate back in the
90s! Reminds me of Louis C.K. joking about people complaining about not being
able to get on WiFi when they're magically sitting in a chair 30,000 feet up
in the sky. Apple wanted to build a mapping tool, and they'd probably get
complaints from folks on here no matter whether they started with an excellent
data source or whether they broke from their tradition and took a gutsy move
that might hurt the user experience for a while. :)

~~~
tarr11
Standards are much higher for maps than when Maps was new (just as they are
for planes)

You wouldn't want Apple building iPlane this way, right?

~~~
stephenhuey
I will give you that. My iPhone 4 is actually still on iOS 5 because I've felt
hesitant and wanted to hear more feedback before I downloaded the upgrade. But
I can honestly say that Google Maps has failed me and others many times, so
it'd be interesting to know if the "failure" rates of the two mapping
solutions are closer than one might expect, and that people are just posting
the Apple ones online because iOS 6 is under more scrutiny at the moment.

------
cicloid
This should be view on the same grounds as the scolding from Jobs to the
MobileMe group when it launched.

The alternatives are almost the same as when it launched. Even having those.
How many are having real problems or just hating because is the new fad?

~~~
atourgates
The other day I got my iPhone 5 on the mail, but it wouldn't activate because
of a SIM card error. So, I get it the car, look up the closest Verizon store
on Apple maps using my old iPhone, and drive there.

I end up at a run down strip mall with no Verizon store in sight. So, I load
up Google maps is Safari, and it finds and takes me to an actual Verizon store
about 3 miles away.

So yes, people are having actual problems with Apple maps.

~~~
chucknelson
This type of stuff happened with Google maps too, but everyone seems to forget
that. A year or so ago in Houston I was following Google maps to a theater and
ended up in the middle of some suburban neighborhood.

Let's just all remember that the old maps app was not flawless.

~~~
llimllib
My main use for my phone is maps.

Using the Google Maps app, this _never_ happened to me in hundreds and
hundreds of routes.

Using the ios6 maps app for the first time, to locate a verizon store to go
and order my iphone 5, it failed to find a Verizon store I knew was there from
previous research. I had to settle for mapping the street and finding the
store myself.

I'm not saying the old maps app didn't do that to you, just that the rate of
that sort of occurrence, given the evidence I've seen, was _much_ lower in
ios5 maps than it is in ios6.

~~~
dpark
I can't compare against iOS 6, because I haven't updated my phone. But I did
indeed have Google drop me off in the wrong place several times. I had it send
me into the suburbs of Bellevue looking for a Home Depot that didn't exist.
Last week it sent me 4 blocks away from the restaurant I was looking for (and
told me it was on the wrong side of the road, a common issue with Google
Maps).

I still think the new Maps has notable issues from everything I've read, but
Google-based Maps was by no means perfect.

------
dizzystar
I don't own an iPhone and never used one, but reading the comments is
surprising. I didn't realize how bad the Google Maps app was for iPhone, ie.
no turn-by-turn, large ads, et.al. I'm rather shocked that people are
complaining so much about this one app in the entire iOS ecosystem and if
their lives depended so much on maps that they now refuse to upgrade to iOS6
over it, what were they paying $300+ awful reception (in Los Angeles) per
phone for the past several iterations for when you can get an Android w/ turn-
by-turn for $50?

Why the current maps is what they are is left to conjecture, but I wonder that
if there was a push-back about no turn-by-turn and lower quality maps for the
past, idk, 2 years, if Apple would have released their new version of maps.

I never got the impression that Apple listened to or cared too much about what
their customers wanted, nor do I think they have the required data abilities
to deal with creating a good mapping algorithm. It is quite possible, that
with zero to little feedback about no turn-by-turn, that iOS meant far more to
the customer than maps. As a passive observer, I am wonder why maps alone is
creating so much push-back. Isn't there something special about iOS that moves
people to spend their hard-earned money on each next device, often with no
convincing improvements, sight-unseen?

------
markshepard
Considering that Apple knew that every single aspect of its software will come
under scrutiny, Releasing the software in this state indicates callous
attitude towards the users.

Do I believe that the software will improve? Yes.. eventually. I know in
enterprise software provides like IBM tend to ship hardware with incomplete
software and rely in service packs to complete the functions.And if Apple
thinks that the same model will work for Consumer products, then they are
plain wrong.

------
kalleboo
Apple should have released these maps as a free beta in the App store 6 months
before iOS 6 was released. People would have gotten their laughs off the bad
data out, but Apple could brush them off as "it's just a beta", and they'd
have 6 months to fix the most egregious issues, and third parties can get
local transit apps ready. Then when iOS 6 replaces the Maps app, even if it's
not up the level of Google Maps, it's no longer news, and there's no huge
backlash.

------
jusben1369
Hmmm. Contrite lasted two paragraphs before we got some defiant bragging about
just how great Apple is with "There's already 100 million users!!" Just in
case we wondered whether an inflated sense of self importance might have
helped contribute to this fiasco ;-)

What should they have said? Simply "The more our customers use our Maps the
better it will get and we greatly appreciate all of the feedback we have
received from you" would have gotten the point across.

------
ChuckMcM
I wonder if they considered re-licensing with Google for a while and releasing
their own 'App' in the App Store to compete. It would get downloaded if only
because it had turn by turn and the licensed product did not. Then offering
people perhaps some perks for helping improve it, allowed it to live side by
side with Google's maps until it was ready to take over.

------
checoivan
I think it was a good thing. No, the maps aren't perfect, but neither were
gmaps( though way more polished). I can remember a the times where gmaps sent
me to some random location. 3D generation is HARD, compare it with the google
earth or maps and apple's shows more resolution,less artifacts. 3D was always
a cool side feature despite the glitches in other programs and maybe the bad
idea was integrating this into the main experience of one of the most used
apps. They added some awesome features but in the end people just want maps
that work, and eye candy doesn't trump that. They could have taken the typical
route trying to brainwash customers with ads or PR releases, the CEO talking
about the best product ever w/o believing, instead I admire that they took the
rout of "We did a great effort, you didn't like it, sorry and we'll make a
bigger effort until you do".

In the end all the effort ,features, and niceties doesn't matter if people
simply doesn't like it.

------
ilamont
I think this is a case where user testing with Apple employees or a trusted
focus group failed. For something like maps, which is inherently focused on
widely diverse geographies, road setups, and use cases, having just a few
hundred testers (most of them in the Bay Area) won't reveal the problems for
99%+ of iPhone owners who live somewhere else.

------
brodytodd
I am disappointed a bit at Mr.Cook's recommendations. I think that some of the
major problems with Apple Maps exists outside the United States. I am in
Canada, and there was a problem from the get go with maps (well documented, I
won't go into it).

None of the solutions recommended in this letter are good solutions. Loading a
webpage adds how many different steps to getting an address, Bing and Mapquest
are not available in the Canadian store, and Waze looks like a cheap gimmick
to me(first impressions, it may be a good product).

I don't want to jump on the 'look at Apple falling' bandwagon, but this is a
major blow to their reputation. I can appreciate the letter, but don't offer
recommendations in your apology that don't work, that makes you look actually
incompetent.

------
jdechko
I'm fortunate enough to live in an area with pretty good coverage by the new
Maps. I'm also savvy enough to point out errors, as I'm sure most people on HN
and other various tech sites are.

I'm not saying that it isn't a big stumble for Apple, because it is, but it's
only going to get better (not that it can get much worse for some). Apparently
maps are hard. Apple already knows this, and most of us are figuring this out
too. But Apple have the resources to make it better, and I am willing to help.

This move was inevitable for Apple; it had to happen sooner or later, and the
longer they waited, the bigger the gap they'd have to make up to be "on par"
with Google Maps.

And Apple should start with a web interface to the maps. It would make
correcting data a lot easier.

------
Revex
I can't believe Apple is essentially saying, "Whoops, my bad, here try some
other stuff while we fix out mistake." It is really kind of surreal. But good
on them for being candid.

I almost lost it when they said to add Google maps as a web app. That
seriously made me groan out loud.

------
EGreg
I think we can see it all over iOS 6: Google probably screwed Apple by not
renewing their YouTube and Maps contracts. It's painful for Apple to break
free of Google. But if it successfully does this, it will become a true
competitor to Google on several fronts. The question is, can their brand
survive the backlash? My guess is YES. Their coffers are huge. They will hire
and catch up in these areas -- and afterwards probably start to innovate. Most
of all, they have some of the greatest designers and branding people there.
Google is mostly about engineers. But right now I think it was Google who
stuck it to Apple, not the other way around.

------
EGreg
What can I say, the problems under Jobs weren't as obvious. He was able to
spin it.

Apple's maps application is just provably worse in terms of maps. Period.
There is not much to spin there. It was obvious.

Apple shipped an iPhone without YouTube and without Maps. The whole set of
decisions, including the form-factor, seems very un-Jobs-like.

However, owning up to the problem is something I applaud Cook for doing. Not
only that, but look at what he suggests -- adding web apps to the desktop.
Because he knows that once they fix the Maps app (by getting a better
database), it will be superior to web apps!

Notice what Tim Cook did not say: download the alternative APPLICATIONS. Are
there any?

------
acdha
Around here (Washington DC) Apple's maps aren't much different that Google's
as far as address matching - in several queries, considerably better even -
but there's a huge gap in all of the ancillary data.

I live near a park with a city rec center, pool, sports fields, etc. and a
public high school. A little testing showed the following:

Google Maps: correctly labels all of the above, including building outlines

OpenStreetMaps: correctly labels everything but the school, but they do have
building outlines and even parking lots marked.

Bing: nothing but the school name labeled at the nearest intersection rather
than correctly in the middle of the [long] block.

Apple, Nokia, Map Quest: featureless void

------
StacyC
This is how you do it. Well done, Mr Cook.

~~~
josteink
Having some standards and providing a working maps app _before_ release would
be my definition of "how to do it", but maybe I'm missing something here.

Obviously Apple knew their solution was shit, but they released it anyway,
hoping people wouldn't mind too much. That was their choice and now they have
to deal.

This is not dealing.

------
fotoblur
Curious, I've heard many times now that by simply using Apples new mapping app
it will get better when more people use it. I have yet to understand how that
process works. Can anyone elaborate? Thanks.

------
skyebook
So basically, Tim Cook says: "Use it! Or don't."

It would've been nice to see OpenStreetMap get some mention though, as users
who think OSM sucks can improve it and indirectly improve iOS maps at the same
time.

~~~
spinchange
I would like to know more about this. It's completely not mentioned in the
conversation (not just Tim's apology) at all. I know the new app incoroprates
traffic data from Waze but they don't talk about OSM involvement at all.

------
tharris0101
Obviously the maps app should never have been released. Beta testing showed
that it had issues. I give props to Tim Cook, though. Steve Jobs would have
never apologized like this.

I'm worried about Apple's software development lately (Lion, iTunes Match,
Maps) but this apology makes me feel a little better about them acknowledging
mistakes and working to fix it. I know they obviously have the in-house
talent, they just need to get quality control back to mid-2000s form.
Hopefully this dust-up over maps wakes them up.

------
tonycoco
Anyone else think Apple Maps just isn't that bad. I used it for a trip from
Chicago to Wisconsin and it worked out perfectly. I guess I'm just not that
interested in people with problems with Apple Maps in China or small German
towns. Here in the midwest US it seems to work just fine and find everything
that GMaps used to. I actually like the Yelp! review integration as well.

Oh well!

I suppose I'm the only one to know that this software is driven by a service
which, in time, will most definitely improve exponentially with use.

~~~
hazov
I live in São Paulo, one of the greatest cities in the world and here the maps
are shit. In London where I was Friday it's also shit. Both are not your
average small German town. For driving directions it's basically TomTom.
You're not interested but I am, and not everyone live in a car.

------
samstokes
_or use Google or Nokia maps by going to their websites_

"Please take a look at our competitors, and learn to associate their brands
with the subpar web versions of their mapping software."

------
jasonkolb
He didn't address why they couldn't release them side-by-side for a year or so
to get feedback on the new product before relying on it as the sole bundled
maps product.

------
mycodebreaks
Let me refer to IE here. IE gets shipped with Windows. Many(actually, too
many) users don't like using it and install & use Chrome, Firefox etc.

Let's hope that Apple plays fair game and lets Google, Bing and other Maps
applications compete with Apple Maps. If Apple Maps app can't become/remain
the most popular app in the category for any number of reasons, Apple Maps
will get reduced to a product which is forced on to users.

------
at-fates-hands
I'm thinking Apple didn't want to partner with Microsoft simply out of pride.
After all the years Jobs and Gates went at each other, there's still legions
of people on both sides who will never use the other companies products.

Just for the record, the Bing Mobile Maps application is top notch. I've used
it frequently and the quality of the maps and interaction is slightly above
the Android Google version.

------
esschul
Probably is really nice to be on the apple-map-team team right now. They get
pushed in delivering something, then probably gets a nice "you suck and you
should feel bad for making us look bad"-reception from everyone. I don't know
about you guys, but I for one think someone ought to give these guys a pat on
the back and a pitcher of beer with a note saying "this too shall pass".

------
padobson
Who thought we'd ever see an Apple CEO actually telling customers to use a
competing product to something Apple made while they were the CEO?

------
zacwitte
Yeah the apple maps were disappointing but the apology letter yields to the
masses. It doesn't show leadership. Always look forward.

------
harywilke
I wonder how long till apple makes something similar to google's mapmaker.
watch map edits in real time for a while and you'll see the power of local
people for fixing a lot of map issues. <http://www.google.com/mapmaker/pulse>

------
mey
Does anyone else find irony that Tim Cook shares a last name with James Cook?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cook>
<https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=cooks+map>

------
caycep
I wonder....contrast the relatively polished release of OS X mountain lion
(yes, it had a few hiccups, but overall, pretty smooth) under Federighi (and
potentially with Serlet lineage) with iOS 6, with its ambitious but flawed
features, skeuomorphic design, etc.

What is going on in the mind of Scott Forstall?

------
HNaTTY
Sounds like Tim Cook thinks that good maps are a chicken-and-egg problem. You
can't correct bad maps without users reporting inaccuracies, and you can't get
people to use inaccurate maps. So you force it on them, and then start fixing
everything that gets reported. Crowdsourcing.

------
arihant
I actually prefer the way the new Maps look, specially when I am walking. As a
photographer I do end up in the wild often and the new Maps is just better and
more fluid to browse the surroundings, specially in satellite.

If only it had the data..or a way to pull in Foursquare locations.

------
denzil_correa
Great to see this letter from Tim Cook. When was the last time such a letter
was written by a CEO?

~~~
doomlaser
Not branded as from Steve Jobs himself, but this is very reminiscent of the
'Antennagate' letter Apple issued after the introduction of the iPhone 4:
[http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-
Apple-...](http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple-
Regarding-iPhone-4.html)

~~~
ConstantineXVI
Hardly the same. It starts off by essentially saying "b-but everyone else does
it!", and nothing even remotely close to "we fell short on this commitment" or
"We are extremely sorry".

~~~
arrrg
Jobs wasn’t good at apologizing. That doesn’t mean he was unable to recognize
and correct errors – but before there was a solution to some problem, he had a
very hard time acknowledging the problem or even apologizing for it in public.

So while he might say “Yeah, what we had sucked, but our new thing fixes all
these problems!” he wouldn’t really do the same so openly in times when there
is no clear solution in sight.

------
petegrif
It's great that he apologized, but it shouldn't have been a surprise. The
problems that I have had are so gross, so blindingly obvious, that the most
cursory use would have revealed problems. Hence he cannot of himself used the
product, which is kinda sad.

------
mcantelon
>we wanted to provide our customers with even better Maps including features
such as turn-by-turn directions, voice integration, Flyover and vector-based
maps. In order to do this, we had to create a new version of Maps from the
ground up.

Or pay Google.

------
wanghq
Seriously, that's not the only apology apple should make.

[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12506897/is-safari-on-
ios...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12506897/is-safari-on-
ios-6-caching-ajax-results)

------
w_t_payne
I really did think that Apple had a policy of never apologizing. It seems that
I was wrong. A great deal of kudos to Tim Cook for the apology. Perhaps an end
to Apple's monumental hubris and arrogance is in sight?

~~~
zerostar07
That's what apple sells, a brand. Once they become commodity, it's all gone.

------
fierarul
A product that gets better as people use it is basically a beta.

Apple isn't known for releasing beta products so I think it's not a wonder
they are noticing the consumers backlash.

I won't be upgrading to iOS6 until I have Google Maps.

~~~
MartinCron
_A product that gets better as people use it is basically a beta._

A product that doesn't get better as people use it is dead.

------
madewulf
Am I the only one to think that such an apology requires guts and honesty?

Kudos for that.

------
IanDrake
Now I'm convinced Apple is in trouble.

It's not in Apple's DNA to apologize. Jobs would have said "We are building
the most revolutionary mapping system ever created. This is an active endeavor
and if it doesn't currently meet your needs we have at least 100 other mapping
apps in the app store."

And then Jobs wouldn't have said anything else about the subject and moved on.

The reality distortion field is fading fast with Cook in charge. Jobs would
have made everyone think they're part of a mapping revolution. Cook has
allowed everyone to think they got ripped off.

~~~
siglesias
Oh please.

1) <http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/>

2) [http://www.applegazette.com/dotmac/apple-issues-mobileme-
apo...](http://www.applegazette.com/dotmac/apple-issues-mobileme-apology-
adds-30-days-to-existing-subscriptions/)

To name a couple. Let's take a deep breath. It's going to be okay.

~~~
IanDrake
The first one isn't a technical problem. And the second isn't from Jobs.

Here's the problem. Apple's technology has flaws. Jobs was great at convincing
people that flaws were features. I believe his ability was fundamental to
their success.

Cook admits flaws are flaws and this could slowly start to change people's
perception of Apple's products.

------
electic
More than this letter, I would love if they update their product page as well
and remove the "Amazing Maps" section from their website.

------
zerohm
Adding "Steve Jobs would have never..." to my list of meaningless cliches
alongside "perception is reality" and "it is what it is".

------
4as198sGxV
Buy TomTom (people seem to like their app for iOS). Swap the current data for
the one used by TomTom in their app. Problem solved.

------
fafner
The Apple Map street data is based on OSM. I haven't used Apple Maps so far.
But is Apple using an old dataset or is OSM simply bad in some regions? I've
heard that there were some problems like Apple rendering some forest roads as
normal streets and so on.

Because in my experience the OSM data is quite good and even better than the
Google Maps data. But then again I life in a populated area with probably a
large number of OSM contributors.

And is Apple giving anything back to OSM? E.g. data or money?

------
dustingetz
i wonder if this came from a top-down directive "ship on schedule or don't
bother." something like Marissa Mayer said this week[1]. GLHF.

[1]
[http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Mar...](http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Marissa-
Mayer-Tells-Yahoo-Employees-Products-Must-3898967.php)

------
teeja
Jobs knew one thing: Quality is job one. If it wasn't quality, it wasn't
included. Maybe this helps them remember that.

------
vbl
Now I need a letter apologizing about the finish chipping off and the total
lack of cases in the marketplace.

------
keypusher
Create a custom icon that goes to the Google Maps homepage? That's really they
suggested solution? Wow...

------
brandoncapecci
Slipping in download statistics in an apology - oh Apple - you are selling
even when you are apologizing.

------
Naushad
Issue a defective product and crowd source data to perfect it. Pathetic
approach. We miss you Steve

------
cheeseprocedure
Wow. When was the last time Apple officially recommend another company's
product as a workaround?

------
markshepard
Is it really true that there are 100 million devices using ios6 already?

------
hhimanshu
I miss Steve, this would never had happened if he was there

------
shreeshga
i wonder how so they test maps? I mean, there cant be test cases for every
major co-ordinates. Probably Apple fucked up in their maps testing.

------
MojoJolo
He doesn't mention OpenStreet Map as an alternative!

------
fcoury
It would be nice if they approved Google's Map application for the time being
as a great alternative. The lack of that option is what is holding me back in
iOS 5...

~~~
nicholassmith
Google hasn't even submitted an app,that's been confirmed.

~~~
Johngibb
I didn't know it had been confirmed yet, can you add a link?

------
riffic
Zero mention of mass transit directions.

------
dschiptsov
Without Jobs Apple is mere Microsoft..)

------
y4m4
Apple time to make some friends :-)

------
josteink
IOW: Apple admits iOS maps is a complete failure.

It least they didn't pretend otherwise, like with mobileme.

------
factorizer
The real question is: douchebags or losers? I'm going for a combination of
both.

------
eyko
He's so full of shit.

------
inthe90s
What's so funny about all of this is that the functionaliity at issue is so
basic. It's 1990's. Remember getting door to door directions from Mapquest and
print them out?

Now add text-to-speech.

Now add lots and lots of hype, branding, smaller form factor, etc., etc.

This is door-to-door directions and text-to-speech. Perhaps greatly improved
since the 90's, but certainly not new or cutting edge.

This is the type of stuff Apple, the world's wealthiest company, cannot get
right. Because it's not their focus. They do not focus on something as simple
as directions. That is just raw facts, nothing creative. No magic. Apple
focusses on other things. Design. But if I just want to go from A to B and
need directions, fast, I really don't give a shit about design. Apple cultists
might. I don't.

Well, if you are an Apple cutltist, you won't be getting simple accurate
directions the way the guy using Google, or Mapquest, or ..., is able to get
them.

------
tghw
_We launched Maps initially with the first version of iOS. As time progressed,
we wanted to provide our customers with even better Maps including features
such as turn-by-turn directions, voice integration, Flyover and vector-based
maps. In order to do this, we had to create a new version of Maps from the
ground up._

Google already did all of this. It's just that Apple wouldn't let them include
those features on iOS. This is rather blatant lying.

~~~
rmrfrmrf
From Google Maps' terms of service:

10.2 Restrictions on the Types of Applications that You are Permitted to Build
with the Maps API(s). Except as explicitly permitted in Section 8 (Licenses
from Google to You) or the Maps APIs Documentation, you must not (nor may you
permit anyone else to) do any of the following:

(a) No "Wrapping." You must not create or offer a "wrapper" for the Service,
unless you obtain Google's written consent to do so. For example, you are not
permitted to: (i) use or provide any part of the Service or Content (such as
map imagery, geocoding, directions, places, or terrain data) in an API that
you offer to others; or (ii) create a Maps API Implementation that
reimplements or duplicates Google Maps/Google Earth. For clarity, you are not
"re-implementing or duplicating" Google Maps/Google Earth if your Maps API
Implementation provides substantial additional features or content beyond
Google Maps/Google Earth, and those additional features or content constitute
the primary defining characteristic of your Maps API Implementation.

(b) No Business, Residential, or Telephone Listings Services. You must not
display any of the business listings Content provided by the Maps API(s) in
any Maps API Implementation that has the primary purpose of making available
business, residential address, or telephone directory listings.

(c) No Navigation, Autonomous Vehicle Control, or Enterprise Applications. You
must not use the Service or Content with any products, systems, or
applications for or in connection with any of the following:

(i) real time navigation or route guidance, including but not limited to turn-
by-turn route guidance that is synchronized to the position of a user's
sensor-enabled device.

(ii) any systems or functions for automatic or autonomous control of vehicle
behavior; or

(iii) enterprise dispatch, fleet management, business asset tracking or
similar applications. If you want to engage in enterprise dispatch, fleet
management, business asset tracking, or similar applications, please contact
the Google Maps API for Business sales team to obtain a Google enterprise
license. (If you are offering a non-enterprise implementation, you may use the
Google Maps API(s) to track assets such as cars, buses or other vehicles, as
long as your tracking application is made available to the public without
charge. For example, you may offer a free, public Maps API Implementation that
displays real-time public transit or other transportation status information.)

Those features in Android's Google Maps only exist because they don't have to
follow the TOS.

~~~
revelation
Apple isn't exactly a random API user. Until you find written copies of the
agreement between Google and Apple, don't claim any of that even applied to
them.

~~~
rmrfrmrf
That's the simplest explanation, though. These other conspiracy theories about
Apple wanting to withhold features from its customers and catch Google with
its pants down are nothing more than mindless speculation.

