
Hand Shaking Is So Medieval. Let’s End It. - vaksel
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/05/09/hand-shaking-is-so-medieval-lets-end-it/
======
electromagnetic
The authors admitted behavior reads like classic OCD. He shakes someones hand
and he can't think of anything else but washing his hand, and he'll excuse
himself from meetings often enough that it's drawing colleagues attention.
He's quite possibly only a few steps away from ruining his own life with
obsession. What happens when this obsession starts interfering to the point it
compromises his output and quality? Well that's usually when people start
getting fired.

The argument against shaking hands is absurdly stupid. The relatively few
bacterial and even fewer viral infections that spread solely through contact,
usually aren't going to put you out of work as to spread they cannot stop
their host from interacting with other people. Then there's the whole argument
about fungal infections being spread through contact, which I personally find
hilarious as if you've ever touched the dirt growing up or pet a dog that's
dug in the dirt then you're already carrying a huge swathe of fungals on your
body. What happens, like in most common infections, is that something (usually
the person being _too_ clean can trigger it) causes an imbalance and suddenly
you get a breakout.

The infections that affect us today, aren't spread how they were in the 2nd
BC. Most major infections are airborne and can easily be caught whilst in a
confined space (IE elevator). This is why winter is the major flu season, not
because of temperatures and people getting 'cold' (incidentally, a colder body
temperature would actually inhibit viral and bacterial growth) but because no
one goes outside.

~~~
timr
Arrington's argument is not "absurdly stupid", and even if he sounds a bit
obsessive on this issue, he has the advantage of being right. Meanwhile,
you're Not Even Wrong -- there are many types of bacteria and viruses that are
spread by skin contact.

Any virologist or microbiologist will tell you that skin contact is a _great_
way to spread viruses and bacteria. In fact, it's pretty widely assumed that
aerosol transmission is mediated via skin contact as well: when you sneeze or
cough, the droplets fall to surfaces quickly. Someone else then touches those
surfaces, touches their mouth, nose or eyes, and voila -- cold transmission.
The same thing happens _much more directly_ via handshakes.

There's a _reason_ that public health people insist that you need to wash your
hands after going to the bathroom. Do you sincerely believe that they'd be so
worried about it, if there were "relatively few" infections that could be
spread by skin contact?

Finally, it really bugs me that your comment is +11, when you spend most of
your time insulting Arrington for making a (relatively well-informed)
argument, and only a very small amount of time making your own (unproven and
incorrect) assertions. If you're going to insult someone for making an
argument, at least come to the table armed with something more than the
opposite opinion.

~~~
electromagnetic
Actually, there's all of about 4 diseases you can catch solely from contact
(IE handshakes). #1 is Athletes foot (occasionally some other fungal
infections can spread similarly too) where an infected person can spread it to
a susceptible person, however this is easily solved by not sharing towels and
actually cleaning your bath/shower.

#2 is HPV, aka warts, which usually most people would avoid shaking hands with
someone covered in warts. The other way is similar to #1, so again good
bathroom hygiene wins out.

#3 is impetigo, commonly found in 2-6 year olds whom I sincerely doubt are in
business meetings. The only other common way is close-contact sports
(rugby/wrestling).

#4 is syphilis, which in very rare cases can spread by direct touch with the
chancer (ulceration of the skin).

Besides those four, no infection worth worrying about is contagious.

The next major worry for handshakes would be fecal-oral transmission. However,
the reason public health officials espouse good bathroom hygiene isn't for
hand shakes, it's for the fact that if this bacteria it has a chance to
develop a large enough culture size to beat our immune system. The amount of
bacteria actually carried on someones hand is so few and so exposed it cannot
survive our stomach acid.

I've taken several courses on all this and I'm certified for food safety,
first aid (for all ages) and a few other courses I needed to work with people
with compromised or weak immune systems (infants, elderly and immuno-
compromised).

Arrington has no fucking clue what he's talking about, he's an office worker
spouting BS about personal hygiene. Unless you work in a hospital, you likely
wouldn't make a single person sick if you only washed your hands when you
showered. It's actually been shown repeatedly, that increased exposure to
infectious bacteria increases your resilience(this is the whole purpose of the
immune system) and can prevent you from getting worse infections. This is why
health officials have been stock piling regular flu vaccinations in case of a
H5N1 outbreak, because immunization against one type of flu strain can help
against other flu strains.

I know _a lot_ about all this stuff. So please, don't call Arrington well-
informed, because he's clueless. He's a programmer, he runs the best tech-news
site on the web and should keep his opinions there where he is exceptionally
clued in. This article lost Arrington a lot of respect from me because of how
sheerly ignorant he is and how clearly he has a serious condition.

------
mseebach
I hate the "it's old, ergo it's bad" line of arguments. His hygiene argument,
which seems to be quite secondary, is also bad. Being in the same room as
someone who sneezes will also get you his germs.

The solution is not to end the medieval, heathen practise of interacting with
other people in real life, but to stay at home when you're sick - parallel to
keeping your hands clean, doubly so if you expect to be shaking hands.

~~~
estromberg
I think he makes quite clear that the main argument is that it is not
hygienic. In fact his argument that it is an old practice plays into to his
hygiene argument. I think what he is saying is that the practice was developed
before the germ theory of disease; before people truly knew how disease was
spread. With our "updated" knowledge, we should have an "updated" system of
greeting. So, though I would usually agree with your point about hating "it's
old, ergo it's bad" types of arguments, I don't really think it applies here.

------
theoneill
"Whenever I do shake a hand I’m completely aware of it, can’t stop thinking
about it, until I can wash my hands."

This seems to be more an article about Arrington than about social customs.

~~~
zcrar70
Yup, agreed - he obviously has a particular neurosis, and seems to hope/expect
that the population of the world will change their habits accordingly...

~~~
patio11
_the population of the world will change their habits accordingly_

I went to dinner tonight with 9 people from 4 countries and got bowed, hugged,
and airkissed, but the only other shaker in the room was the Japanese
salaryman. OK, check that, the _other_ Japanese salaryman.

------
Keyframe
I have no idea who this guy is, apparently he is popular around HN (I'm not
really into startups or that culture I guess), but I feel bad for saying it
like this - stop being a pussy and be a man damnit.

------
gills
I'm just curious: how does the man open doors?

~~~
pmjordan
Interns?

Edit: snark aside, this is a valid question. Especially bathroom doors,
considering he admits to rushing off to the bathroom to wash his hands and his
claim that people don't wash their hands after visiting the bathroom.

Edit 2: I'm starting to feel a little bad for joining in on the Arrington
bashing, the guy sounds like he's got some form of OCD neurosis. Though I
suppose calling for a ban on handshakes (unthinkable in many cultures) as a
result of it strikes me as self-centred.

~~~
estromberg
Wash hands, dry hands with paper towel, open door with paper towel

~~~
gills
That's what I do :) I've noticed an increased number of garbage cans near
doors as well, in many places, so I think it's catching on.

I wasn't trying to bash Arrington, btw. He has a point about germs. Especially
with the sheeple freaking out about Fludor the Burninator and such. But a
handshake ultimately is about showing trust (whether rooted in showing lack of
a weapon or not), and here he is saying outright that he does not trust anyone
else to keep their hands clean to his obviously-high personal standard. I
repsect that he's willing to be forthright about it, though I think carrying a
travel-sized bottle of Purell might be a solution with milder social
consequences in certain business settings.

~~~
electromagnetic
After learning how many bacteria can live on bathroom door handles in a food
hygiene course, I stopped opening them with my hands when leaving. I'm
thankful that most public places now have the S-shaped doorway.

Incidentally, the door handle in a public bathroom can have significantly more
bacteria on them than the toilet seat. So ladies (and gentlemen I guess) when
you hover over the seat, reconsider if you actually want to touch that door
handle. IIRC one study found a 20:1 ratio between doorhandle and toilet seat
(door handles are wiped down with a regular cleaner, whilst toilets get a
professional-grade bleaching).

------
sdirge
Arrington needs one of these:

<http://store.pksafety.net/tycbrlevsuit.html>

Problem solved.

~~~
zcrar70
Only $856 in the sale! Bargain.

Perhaps a kind-hearted friend might consider it for his next birthday?

------
gojomo
Something to think about: when transmitting germs via handshakes, the bugs
might in fact be features. [har, har]

Assume that you only shake hands with people with no visible symptoms, and
that the very sickest people do manage to segregate themselves (and their
sneezes/coughs) moreso than the mildly sick. Then, the strains you're picking
up are the weakest ones. Getting mild versions of infections helps calibrate
and train the immune system... often protecting against worse cousins of the
same bugs. People passing along mild bugs are doing you -- and your 'herd' --
a favor.

(This is a version of the 'hygeine hypothesis' scaled up to adults, social
conventions, and societies/herd-immunities.)

------
tyn
In my previous job whenever someone entered the open space office in the
morning was giving a handshake to everybody that was already there. I think
this is a french thing, there was a french majority, but eventually everybody
(except me - I was just saying "hi everybody" when entering the room) was
doing this. Apart from the fact that it was distracting (imagine you were
first in the office, you had 25 people coming to shake hands and you couldn't
concentrate from the moment someone entered the door), I find it also
completely useless. What's the point in shaking hands with people you see
every day? I find it similar to bringing flowers to your wife every day. After
a while it will mean nothing but if you stop it she will wonder why.

------
patrickg-zill
As a fan of the TV show "Monk" the first thing I thought of was his
catchphrase "Wipe! Wipe! Wipe!"

*from the article: "Whenever I do shake a hand I’m completely aware of it, can’t stop thinking about it, until I can wash my hands."

------
rationalbeaver
Take the Michael Jackson way out. Wear creepy white gloves.

------
grinich
If he knew how many germs are on everyday objects, I don't think he'd be so
worried about shaking hands.

~~~
awt
It seems strange that so many people are concerned about bacteria. When was
the last time you got sick from bacteria (In the US)? It seems like most
infectious disease these days is caused by viruses.

~~~
chancho
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methicillin-
resistant_Staphyloc...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methicillin-
resistant_Staphylococcus_aureus)

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrotizing_fasciitis>

These are rare, but strep throat is pretty common.

------
xiaoma
Harlow’s experiments into the social development of monkeys demonstrated that
physical contact was of vital importance, especially for the young.

I suspect that severely limiting handshakes, hugs, back-pats, and other common
contact would harm our health, not help it.

------
robotrout
It looks like anybody with a start-up that was some sort of technology /
personal-hygiene combo would guarantee a write-up in techcrunch.

I'd like to announce my Golgafrinchan telephone sanitizer service. We also do
keyboards.

------
sdirge
What does he do with money?

Boil it?

NOOOOO I dont want your cash! It has cooties..

------
pie
It seems strange to me that nobody's mentioned that a good chunk of society
might actually _enjoy_ shaking hands with one another. Even in the depths of
germ paranoia, it seems silly to focus on other peoples' hands - there's much
worse out there.

------
menloparkbum
I wonder if the nature of his work means that he's always shaking hands. I
really can't remember the last time I had to shake a stranger's hand. If I had
to do it all the time, I'd probably also develop an OCD annoyance about it.

------
dimitar
Mild hypochondria?

~~~
electromagnetic
No, with mild hypochondria he'd be going to the doctors because he thinks he
has a cold. He reads like borderline OCD, it hasn't quite had a complete
effect on his life yet, but he admits to only thinking about washing his hands
after shaking someone's hand and that even his colleagues have noticed he
leaves meetings to wash his hands.

He's got something way more insidious than hypochondria.

~~~
awt
Hypochondria is pretty insidious. You actually believe you have the disease.
It's reality.

------
vicaya
I'm fan of palm-fist salute (in martial art.) It predates Medieval but
decidedly more hygienic :)

------
pierrefar
I'm keep my hands clean and happy to not shake Mr. Arrington's hand if the
chance ever arises.

Sheesh.

------
TweedHeads
Next time before greeting MA pick your nose ;-)

