
Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store - ingve
https://blog.kapeli.com/apple-removed-dash-from-the-app-store
======
dandare
I am annoyed by something else: today Apple stepped on the wrong toe, the
community will cry foul and someone from Apple who reads HN will rush to
salvage the situation. We have seen this pattern before (usually but not
exclusively with Apple). But what about the thousands of small and nameless
developers that were crushed by some script bug or killed by operator
misclick? Who will ever help them?

~~~
vbezhenar
Human support is supposed to help them.

What I found unacceptable is "We are banning you and we won't tell you
anything about it". This pattern is extremely common. And extremely
frustrating. You can't put one in jail without telling why (and right to
defend). In many developed countries you can't even fire a worker without a
solid reason. It should be prohibited for companies to halt service someone
without providing a reasonable explanation.

~~~
sithadmin
>It should be prohibited for companies to halt service someone without
providing a reasonable explanation.

By US standards, that would require an absurd level of legislative and/or
judicial overreach. I don't think I'd even want to do business in that kind of
regulatory climate.

~~~
brokentone
This is very true. However, I wonder if we as engineers and the like can
provide a better TLDR ratings guide for marketplaces. Kinda like
[https://tosdr.org/](https://tosdr.org/) or a BBB that works... Then we as
engineers refuse to build apps for marketplaces below some kind of score.

Or does it even matter if the Apple App store is the only marketplace of its
kind?

~~~
dandare
On a related note, as a small startup I am looking for some TOS generator that
I - the single developer - could also understand and that will be clear and
fair to my users. Any advice?

~~~
llwt
Iubenda,[https://www.iubenda.com/en](https://www.iubenda.com/en), has worked
well for us.

------
izacus
The thing the pisses me of about these cases is this:

"I called them again and they said they can’t provide more information."

They terminate your account and then they even refuse to tell you why. A basic
human thing, a chance to fix the issue, but no. Go f* yourself from Apple and
that's it.

~~~
rimantas
Try contacting Google about anything.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Why do some people always make this kind of "argument "?! Why can't you keep
it focused on Apple when it's Apples actions in question?

Saying something about some other company does not in any way justify the
questionable actions.

~~~
RIMR
Because, we must always speak of Apple and Google in binaries, as everything
is always one or the other.

Chocolate and Vanila, Male and Female, Apple and Google. All these things are
binary, and are always inversely related to one another.

/s

~~~
xkcd-sucks
Dimensions and directions are useful for describing stuff, though

------
makecheck
When a serious action is going to be taken for any reason, that action should
be PRECEDED by at least an E-mail to the owner and the path to reverse the
action should be clear. The E-mail should not just be a terse message, it
should contain a wide variety of resources; something like: "Your account and
applications _will_ be disabled in 2 days for _< reason>_. Please select from
the following links to attempt to resolve the issue, or call _< number>_ as
soon as possible.".

It’s not just apps, either. There is frequently a “less disruptive” option for
any major action; for instance, you can “delete” files by starting with the
instantly-reversible "chmod 000", and after some period of time you actually
go ahead and "rm -Rf". If, in between, a panicked user E-mails you back and
says they really needed those files, you undo your "chmod" and instantly fix
the issue. Why should anything on the App Store take days?

~~~
codazoda
They can't give you advanced notice for "fraud" though. If your app actually
commits fraud it's got to go right away to limit the amount of fraud you
commit. They at least _think_ some kind of fraud was happening, correctly or
not.

~~~
makecheck
No, they still could. The message could say: “We have received X complaints of
fraud for your app, "Totally Not a Scam Lite", and it will be removed in 2
days unless you contact us immediately at < _number_ >. In addition, if this
is found to be true, any sales of your app will be refunded and not credited
to your developer account.”.

~~~
codazoda
Sure, they could, but it doesn't make business sense. This scheme might even
cause a class action lawsuit from the people who bought it AFTER they knew it
was fraud but BEFORE they removed it. Refunds very likely cost money in the
form of credit card transaction fees and wages (people doing the refunding as
well as CS fielding calls for two days).

~~~
erikpukinskis
First, a class action suit for 48 hours of downloads on an app is not likely.

And certainly when fraud is detected some refunds will occur. So they set the
tolerances such that they can pay those refunds with the fees they extract on
the other side of the curve.

~~~
yid
> First, a class action suit for 48 hours of downloads on an app is not
> likely.

You'd be amazed at what a few billion in the bank will attract, especially
when it's cheaper to settle than litigate.

------
davesque
Kinda puts it in perspective how weird it is that companies have so much
control over how software is distributed and sold these days. This would never
have happened a decade ago.

~~~
zymhan
We also weren't using as many walled-garden devices and ecosystems a decade
ago.

There are certainly a lot of issues with the app store model. But using a
service like download.com was also rife with issues.

~~~
RIMR
Why can't we just have the equivalent of APT for mobile devices?

~~~
viraptor
We did. On N900, but the hardware was bulky and then Nokia stopped being
Nokia.

------
edoceo
I make a regulatory compliance software. Apple refused to list my App until I
removed functionality at their request. Functionality that is required for
compliance.

Apple's arrogance in running their store may eventually cause it's decline.

~~~
giarc
I wouldn't expect Apple to understand compliance for every possible use case.
Apple doesn't have to bend their rules to comply with apps that want to comply
with local/state/provincial/federal laws, they can just say "We don't support
x feature, and therefore you can't distribute through our store."

~~~
izacus
> I wouldn't expect Apple to understand compliance for every possible use
> case.

Wait, you're actually saying that the richest business entity on the world
can't be expected to employ people that use their brain and do a bit of fact
checking on outlying cases?

~~~
giarc
No I'm not saying that. Let's take an example. Let's say a local government
wants to deploy iPhones to all their staff but as part of their local laws,
all communication on government owned equipment can be monitored. So a
developer writes up an app to record all typing on the iPhone (this is a
hypothetical). They submit to Apple and Apple rejects this because it's
against their policies (apps are sandboxed and wouldn't really be able to do
this, but you get the point). Apple shouldn't be forced to comply with this
local requirement, nor could they since every single government or private
business would have different pieces of compliance. It would be impossible for
them to develop an operating system that would allow for all these corner
cases.

------
funkysquid
This really sucks - just bought a copy of his MacOS app through his website to
try and help compensate. At this point I'm starting to avoid buying software
through the Mac App Store unless it's not available anywhere else. Even if
it's slightly easier to make a purchase initially, you risk the headache of
situations like this where you can't even migrate your license.

~~~
feelix
Additionally the apps outside the app store tend to work a lot better (nearly
all the apps I wrote work far better in the website versions, not having the
restrictions of the MAS versions), and also the developer gets more of the
money, 95% instead of 70%. And then you're a customer of the developer, not of
the app store, which is also better.

------
norswap
At this point, this is neither surprising, not unexpected. There is ample
precedent, there are tens of stories like this every days (maybe even counting
only those that hit the HN frontpage).

To avoid these problems, don't sell on the App Store, it's as simple as that
(and very sad). Apple's processes suck and Apple doesn't care, as it has had
year to fix things, but hasn't. Complaining won't change it. People have
complained, and it didn't change.

~~~
joemi
> there are tens of stories like this every days (maybe even counting only
> those that hit the HN frontpage)

As someone who comes here every day, I don't think tens (or even ones) of this
type of story hits the frontpage every day. I'm not saying it's not a problem,
though.

------
projectileboy
I wonder if Apple knows how many developers use Dash. They probably don't
realize what a high-profile faux pas they're making.

~~~
stuaxo
This is the first time I've heard of this (not a mac user but am a developer).

At least as this is software for developers, I reckon most won't mind buying
it outside the appstore, it sounds really useful.

~~~
chillacy
It's a lifesaver on planes where you won't have internet. If only I could
download an archive of stackoverflow too, then I'd be set.

~~~
prashnts
I use `devdocs.io`. It's open source and works great!

~~~
tedmiston
First time seeing this site... DevDocs is nice!

------
vortico
The OS X platform already has a stupid easy download-and-install process with
their .app folders. It's a shame that some users prefer to instead use an
alternative distribution method controlled by a centralized party rather than
buying software directly from the developer.

~~~
Sidnicious
No standard update mechanism, no standard uninstall mechanism, and going from
"I have this .dmg/.zip file in my downloads folder" to "I'm running this app
from my Applications folder and don't have any leftovers in my downloads
folder" is several non-obvious steps.

.app bundles are great, just not a complete solution.

~~~
coldtea
> _No standard update mechanism_

Sparkle is the de-facto standard used by almost all apps.

> _no standard uninstall mechanism_

Deleting the .app file would do that for most apps. The config files might be
handy to keep around if you re-install (and are inert anyway), else it's
pretty easy to remove those too. It would be nice for the OS to be able to
track "all files installed by an app" though in case those are installed by an
installer (and thus, are not self-contained in the .app folder).

> _and going from "I have this .dmg/.zip file in my downloads folder" to "I'm
> running this app from my Applications folder and don't have any leftovers in
> my downloads folder" is several non-obvious steps._

It's a few steps, but its still as obvious as things get in computing. If
users can't manage that, how they'd manage USING the app?

~~~
wlesieutre
I have known several people who were otherwise pretty competent computer users
but would download a DMG, mount it, and run the app from the disk image every
time.

There's a reason so many downloads include a custom background image with a
big "DRAG ME TO THE APPLICATIONS FOLDER" message and an arrow pointed to a
/Applications alias. This is such a common use case that I don't understand
why Apple didn't just make a "This disk image is an installer" flag, and
automatically prompt the user with "Do you want to install this to the
Applications folder?"

~~~
coldtea
> _I have known several people who were otherwise pretty competent computer
> users but would download a DMG, mount it, and run the app from the disk
> image every time._

Perhaps, but they just need to be told once what to do, and it's dead easy.
Having an installer is not that more intuitive -- they'd still have to be
shown how to use their first one.

> _This is such a common use case that I don 't understand why Apple didn't
> just make a "This disk image is an installer" flag, and automatically prompt
> the user with "Do you want to install this to the Applications folder?"_

Yeah, some apps do it automatically when opened from the DMG.

~~~
stuaxo
I know a couple of people who do this, and tried to explain - but they are
happy the way they are.

------
abrkn
Could this be related to using the same name as the cryptocurrency? [1]

[1] "Dash (DASH) is an open sourced, privacy-centric digital currency with
instant transactions." [https://www.dash.org/](https://www.dash.org/)

~~~
seamusgalla
I would hazard a guess that you're right.

------
okket
Update:

    
    
      Apple contacted me and told me they found evidence of App Store 
      review manipulation. This is something I’ve never done.
    
      Apple’s decision is final and can’t be appealed.

~~~
funkysquid
That's infuriating - is there some way we can contact the app review team to
complain about their "final" decision?

~~~
beamatronic
AMA Request, someone on the app review team at Apple.

------
koolba
Having seen the internals of many an application that deals with both "human"
and "group" accounts, I'm not surprised that something like this would cause
an issue. Unless things are designed from the ground up to support it (which
they never are), those types of migrations always have a bunch of edge cases
that aren't properly handled.

Sure it sucks but the real test of whether Apple gives a rats behind is if
they fix it a reasonable amount of time. If this drags on for more than a day
without a human response from their support line I'd say, no they don't care.
I bet that happens.

~~~
zaphar
I'm trying to imagine the sort of system where a migration from "human" to
"group" accounts results in a flag for fraud on that account. It's giving me
nightmares. Surely they are more competent than the code/architecture I'm
imagining it would take.

I'm going to hypothesize that this isn't a technology glitch. It seems more
likely that the move triggered a look at his account by some human who for
reasons that are unknown to us decided his account looked fishy.

~~~
brazzledazzle
>Surely they are more competent than the code/architecture I'm imagining it
would take.

Try dealing with Apple's joke of a bug tracker. Their backend systems don't
exactly get the same smooth experience their consumer products get.

------
duncan_bayne
"... all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

This sort of thing will continue as long as people persist in developing for
proprietary walled gardens like iOS.

Once again, and despite my annoyance with the man in general, Stallman is
right. This sort of thing is unethical, and we as developers shouldn't be
supporting it by developing for iOS.

[https://xkcd.com/743/](https://xkcd.com/743/)

------
brandon272
I don't know why anyone develops apps for Apple's walled prisons. I can't
imagine the anxiety of having a widely used app in the app store, and knowing
that any day, for any reason that you may or may not understand or be privy
to, an invisible hand can simply reach in and shut down your account or remove
your app with nothing more than a curt message about your non-compliance of
their terms.

No thanks!

~~~
Reason077
_I don 't know why anyone develops apps for Apple's walled prisons._

It's because there's such a large (and arguably, wealthy and influential)
incarcerated population.

------
whizzkid
Even though It might be a simple error on Apple's end, this is both morally
and economically unacceptable. As long as it is not a top-high critical issue
with the account or the application, a considerable time should be given to
developer to solve the issue.

They can even freeze the money that goes to developer until the issue
resolved, but cutting the app from the market and failing on both app users
and the developer?

I don't think this is the best approach.

~~~
st3v3r
So fraudulent behavior doesn't fit under that?

------
Aaronn
Phil Schiller's response (from this 9to5Mac article
[https://9to5mac.com/2016/10/05/apple-inexplicably-
terminates...](https://9to5mac.com/2016/10/05/apple-inexplicably-terminates-
developer-account-for-popular-developer-app-dash-apps-removed-from-app-
store/)):

"Hi Matthew,

Thanks for your email about this app.

I did look into this situation when I read about it today. I am told this app
was removed due to repeated fraudulent activity.

We often terminate developer accounts for ratings and review fraud, including
actions designed to hurt other developers. This is a responsibility that we
take very seriously, on behalf of all of our customers and developers.

I hope that you understand the importance of protecting the App Store from
repeated fraudulent activity.

Thank you,

Phil"

------
DiabloD3
I find it ironic that the EU goes after Google for allowing third party stores
(Samsung, Amazon, Nvidia, etc) and sideloaded APKs and allows you to build
your own APKs for free...

... but Apple just randomly removes apps that people have purchased from the
Apple Store (thus stealing their money and their product, doing everything
short of uninstalling it, but preventing reinstallation), and the EU stays
silent?

This is some bullshit.

~~~
krschultz
I simply don't understand this either. Sure Android has the larger market
share by units, but Apple has a much higher share of revenue & profit in the
market. Which is really the proper measure of market power?

~~~
mwfunk
For antitrust purposes, market share.

~~~
dragonwriter
For antitrust purpose, pricing power is, as I understand, the "gold standard";
various measures of market share (which isn't itself a single measure) are
sometimes evidence which supports a conclusion about the likely existence of
pricing power, especially when direct evidence one way or another on pricing
power is hard to find.

------
hellofunk
I hope we will see an update here or somewhere soon that provides more
information on why it was removed.

~~~
hellofunk
Just noticed that Dash offers iOS docs. I wonder if Apple has a rule against
charging a fee to provide their own documentation?

~~~
zwily
AFAIK, Dash does not distribute them. It's just a viewer.

~~~
superfluid
I think it might download them for local use.

~~~
idbehold
That's still considered a viewer unless it the iOS docs were included in the
application when you installed it.

------
Sk1pp
Is there a way for us to remark to apple that this is something we want to
see? I would gladly email support.

This might be an effective way to handle these as I've seen a bunch of them.

EDIT: I would like to know the source, I have apps on the app store and I
wonder if it is a simple as someone putting in a fraudulent claim of
fraudulence.

------
Aloha
It sounds like just simple human error on Apples part.

------
amelius
In my opinion, if an internalized market has more than (say) 10K independent
people making a profit from it, the government should step in and require it
to be opened up, and follow the rules of the free market.

This should hold not only for Apple, but also Google, Uber, AirBnB, et cetera.

------
dav-
On a positive note, this post introduced me to Dash and I have purchased the
MacOS app directly through the developer.

And I'm sure I am not the only one :)

------
softawre
FYI - I went through the process described to migrate my license and it worked
fine.

------
ThomPete
Man that sucks.

I ended up removing my app from the app store after I realized that Apple
would never actually allow me to do what I wanted to do without having me go
through hoops to get it approved every time i made an update.

Never been happier. I am sure Dash will do just fine outside the app store
too.

------
superfluid
If I had to guess, I'd say there might have been a copyright violation with
respect to downloaded docs.

~~~
brazzledazzle
But that's not fraud right? Just an app store guideline violation. Or a
copyright violation.

~~~
vsl
Not even that, copyright concerns _distribution_ , Dash isn't distributing
anything, it's a tool the user uses to download stuff. Even if Apple
misunderstood it, that would still not result in marking the _account_ as
fraud.

------
makecheck
I have to say, the way he has handled this has been fantastic. Within a day,
he has published a license migration tool; fully explained the situation; and
basically made it as painless as possible for all his users (versions 2 and 3)
to start using non-App-Store licensing. I immediately paid $10 to upgrade from
2 to 3.

------
fierarul
It's also quite possibly a legal mixup.

The company he most likely used for the iOS app is, I assume, KAPELI APPS SRL
which seems to have been incorporated in September 2016.

Which means that for the OSX app he used another company or he sold it as an
individual.

This conflict as well as the company having no history might have triggered
something on the Apple side.

------
CodeWriter23
Seems to me if Apple doesn't resolve this in a few days, he should move to the
ad hoc build-your-blob and side load it like f.lux did. Enter a license key to
prove you've paid.

It's beyond Apple's intent for the free version of Xcode, but what does he
have to lose? Fuck 'em.

------
alanh
What a convenient license migration! Excellent.

------
zorrobyte
Well, that was a complete waste of time. I requested a refund or credit for
Dash as I paid $29 for it.

Chat and Phone T1 and T2 Advisors all said there is nothing they can do and
kept suggesting I restore a backup. Too bad "Transfer Purchases" was removed
in iOS 9 with App Slimming - meaning that there is no way to backup/extract an
ipk file from iOS using native tools. They also couldn't offer any sort of
iTunes Store credit or refund.

Long story short, if Apple decides to remove an App from their platform, it's
gone - period and they don't give a sh*t how much you paid for it.

------
jerrycabbage
This is why anytime you are dealing with things that anyone could conceivably
find questionable you either develop a website or skip Apple. Their fanboys
tend to have money, but let this be a lesson..

------
MrSourz
Yikes, I hope there's more to the story here, but it doesn't sound like there
is.

I use dash if I had done the wipe & reinstall I was planning to this coming
weekend I would have to repurchase it.

------
butterfi
Confusing, but makes me glad I bought Dash outside of the app store.

------
givinguflac
I really hope it's not the case, and would be a dick move, but perhaps this is
another sign that Apple is bringing development tools natively to iOS.

------
mrmondo
Does this mean I get a refund for my purchase?

------
tj4shee
I bought my version of Dash on the App store.... shame on me ! and this is the
exact reaon I avoid the app store and buy things directly from the developers
when I can.

So Apple, how do I get my $$$ back so I can rebuy it from a reputable source
???

------
dec0dedab0de
It looks like Dash downloads documentation from various sources and displays
it offline. I wonder if one of the documentation sources has a license that
doesn't permit this use, and then they filed a DMCA notice.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
Seems like pretty coincidental timing considering their account migration.
Also I'm not sure that a DCMA takedown counts as fraud.

------
deathtrader666
Why isn't there a class-action lawsuit against Apple on issues like these?

------
aabbcc1241
Not mean to be offensive but I will think this way: App Store is a commercial
service. When you post something there, you're solidating service from Apple.
So if they reject to serve you, it's like a store reject to sell something to
you (not because you cannot pay for it).

My first response is why don't distribute it on your own, like an HTTP link to
'apk'... then I realised general user cannot install stuff without App Store.

Why open source project bother to support people not using open source system?
You cannot save to whole world (like someone lock himself intentionally during
a fire, and reject to open the door. It might not be a good example but I hope
you get my thought)

------
jheriko
i'm a little skeptical this is the right approach...

everytime i've encountered a problem that someone couldn't resolve with apple
over the phone, i've managed to resolve it by phoning them.

i wonder how much effort the developer really made, and how he talked to the
people he dealt with. my experience of apple, and infact most customer service
is that if you are nice and sympathetic and explain thoroughly the nature of
the problem, then people will do their best to resolve it.

------
tj4shee
Apple has not only screwed the developer, but also EVERYONE that paid for this
through the app store... I will no longer be afforded upgrades that the
developer makes...

------
gtsteve
If it makes you feel better, I'd never heard of this app before. I really like
it, and I'll probably end up buying it (on macOS).

------
techwizrd
This is disturbing. I've been working on an open-source Dash alternative [1]
for Linux (anything with GTK actually) that is compatible with Dash docsets.
Dash is a really cool piece of software, and it's really surprising to see
something like this happen. I hope that this is resolved, and that we are
Apple take steps to change their policy in the future.

1: [https://github.com/techwizrd/tarpon](https://github.com/techwizrd/tarpon)

------
emeraldd
I wonder if this is as simple as a typo in the DUNS number on someone's part?

~~~
wila
No, it verifies your DUNS number at the moment you click "next" when going
through the process.

How do I know? I'm still waiting for two weeks to get apple to see my company
DUNS number that was generated for me pretty much instantly. I try every day,
but so far nothing happens.

------
jrobichaud
Is Dash iOS affected as well?

------
rezashirazian
Sounds like a simple human error. I expect to see an update stating the issue
has been resolved fairly soon.

------
madushan92
Is there a way to notify Apple about this like a petition or something? Lots
of us would be happy to help

------
LukasP
This better be an error that they're going to correct. It is not acceptable
behavior.

------
smegel
"Hi, Fred from Apple here..."

Things I've never seen on HN.

------
BoronCorps
Note that the version of Dash on the MAS is not sandboxed. Even after the Dash
3 (major update) release, App Sandbox was not adopted.

------
ezoe
He decided to waste his effort on the locked-in closed platform. He totally
deserved it.

------
sdegutis
> _" I can’t update Dash for iOS anymore and I can’t distribute it outside of
> the App Store."_

Well, that's the problem with a walled garden in a nutshell, isn't it?

------
jbverschoor
Maybe you bought ratings?

------
anonymous_iam
Perhaps this is just another case of Apple/USG assuming the name Dash is
associated with terrorism. After all, Dash is similar to Daesh...

------
lihebi
Just want to complain that I bought Dash 2, and there's no way to access it
after the Dash 3 is out. I don't understand why the guy wants to make money
this way. Good job Apple.

------
credo
Interesting flagging behavior :)

The #3 item on the front page has (Longest humans can live) had 44 points and
was posted more than 1 hour ago. The #4 item (Typora) has 42 points and was
posted more than 1 hour ago.

However, this post on the App Store is at #8 even though it has 172 points and
was submitted 47 minutes ago.

------
diskrisknbisque
Apple is choosing to only support a few cryptocurrencies and hasn't given any
criteria for their choices. This is all people want, Apple--reasoning! The
sting from incidences like these, at least for me, comes mostly from the
information scarcity that proceeds them.

Unfortunately, it seems, the writing truly was on the wall once Dash had to be
removed from Jaxx Wallet.

I'm not even a Dash user, but choice in such a new space is important.

~~~
kemayo
Wrong "Dash". This is about the documentation-browser, not the cryptocurrency.

~~~
diskrisknbisque
Ah you are correct. I've had cryptocurrency on the brain the last few weeks
and was hasty.

