

Two Non-Tech Co-Founders...?? - jaypreneur

So, is this a bad idea?<p>Some quick background:<p>I came up with an idea. I researched potential competitors, talked to potential customers, and overall got good feedback. So, I went along working out features (as well as refining down to MVP) and started designed a pretty detailed wireframe. I consider myself a business/design co-founder. I feel I have a good eye for design and user experience. I'm learning to code the front-end now. Unfortunately, those skills can only get me so far.<p>So, I decided to ask a friend of mine (who is also non-technical) if he wants to do this with me. The idea I had in my head is the following....<p>I could outsource, but then I have no one to update/maintain anything. Though I guess at that point, I would have an MVP and (hopefully) customers and could get a tech co-founder on board.<p>I could do it myself. But then I spread myself thin everywhere, take longer to accomplish everything, and likely can't really do a professional level job. The outcome is the same as above. I get MVP out there and (hopefully) customers and could get a tech co-founder on board.<p>Then there is hustle hard to try to get a tech co-founder without an MVP. Difficult. (I have to try though... so perhaps I should have tried that first? I'm not just trying to be the "idea guy" or anything. I know I need to bring more value to the table than that)<p>Ultimately, all the above issues show one glaring weakness. How do I even know this tech co-founder won't be a huge problem? From what I understand and believe, your relationship with a co-founder is just as important as their skill sets. You need to get along, share a vision, have trust... it's not easy to find this person. If you can find them at all.<p>Fortunately, my friend and I do have a good relationship, work well together, trust one another, and so on. If he was technical, I'd have IMMEDIATELY went to him. But unfortunately who doesn't know any coding, but he's willing to learn to become technical co-founder. An additional plus is we're both in the a position to go at this full time.<p>However, what can I expect here? Is it a bad idea? He's a smart guy and learns quickly. But I know there's a lot to learn... there are those with years of experience out there. So, is it setting myself up for failure/problems?<p>I am just second guessing myself here. While I'd feel bad to "take it back" because we're good friends. I would rather do that now, before we get started working on it, then down the road when we realize it was a mistake. To be honest, the reason I am second guessing myself is because maybe I'm underestimating my ability to find a technical co-founder? Or even underestimating my ability to "do it all" I suppose.<p>Any and all advice here is appreciated. Thanks!
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pepeto
Getting a partner only because he is a friend does NOT cover basic
requirements for partnership.

Explanation:

Your idea is not going to work if no one knows how to code. Period. Your
friend starting now will need a minimum of couple years to get to an OK level
to build what you want. Your product will have bugs, inefficient code, hard to
maintain. Given that, the only way to make it is if the market and idea are
exceptionally strong and really pull you in sales so you hire someone better.
Not likely.

What could happen?

Being honest and meaningful now with him is important because it will settle
thigs right between you guys. If you keep him only because of friendship (yet
worse, afraid to break friendship- if he is a friend he would understand whats
meaningful for both) there will always be tension between you, low morale, the
business will not move fast and things eventually will fall apart. Keep in
mind also that you are getting him into something log term that is not likely
to work this specific way, which is a bad favor.

What to do?

In my opinion, to keep the friendship and the business be honest with your
friend and find a programmer to partner with. Or at least bring in a third
person experienced coder. Otherwise it feels like you will lose both.

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jaypreneur
Thank you both for the fast replies. I appreciate it.

I guess I have a decision to make. Ultimately, I'm trying to build something
with some complex features. It seems it might, as willpower put it, eventually
outpace his ability to consume and learn fast enough. It isn't business-y as
much as it is an internet platform for a lot of users (social network aspects,
but not a social network persay).

Bleh. I'm not trying to be stingy with equity or anything by not wanting him
on if he can't contribute, but the reason for me thinking of now changing my
mind is the following:

1\. He's a good friend. I want him to stay that way. If it's truly hard for
him to keep up, I don't want to then get need someone better to jump on board
later. Then what does he do?

2\. Say he doesn't bother doing the technical side. I'm not sure where else
he'd fit in terms of skills. He's not terribly artistic/design inclined. And
while I don't doubt his business skills, I have immersed myself in business
and marketing books, went to school for business, and am far more
energetic/passionate as a salesmen. It is why if he did know the technical
side, his personality and skills would complement my own.

3\. Well... I feel like lists always need at least 3. Unfortunately, I started
the numbering before realizing that I didn't have a third thing to say, ha.

So, it's actually more just about team dynamics and what he'd even have to do
than dealing with equity or something.

Since, honestly, I've been doing everything but the back-end side just fine
(not progressing quickly as I'd like due to my full time job, but I digress)
on my own and expect to continue handling all of that.

Oh man. I feel terrible. I was just so excited when I thought about the idea
of us working together and finally have a partner who could perhaps handle the
technical end. I neglected to fully realize how difficult a role I was putting
in his hands as someone with no technical experience.

One last thing. Since as of now it seems like I made the wrong decision and
want to back out of it. Would you think this is a reasonable thing to say:

I'm sorry to say this, but I was thinking more about the ability for either of
us to learn to code the back-end and I think it'd be tough to get up to speed
fast enough starting from scratch like this. And all our other strengths
overlap, so it'd be hard to really split roles up, so I don't think it's a
good idea to partner up on this. You seemed excited about starting something
and why not keep with it, even it's not with this idea? Just brainstorm some
ideas on your own, bounce them off me, and still go through with it. We can
help each other along the way.

I don't know. I'll say something like that to him. Let me know if it comes off
terrible. Since I feel terrible.

~~~
willpower101
"Bleh. I'm not trying to be stingy with equity or anything by not wanting him
on if he can't contribute, but the reason for me thinking of now changing my
mind is the following:"

Yeah I meant what pepeto said for sure. Use equity to equally vest in a 3rd
member who is a dedicated programmer slash eventual CTO. Once he proves his
weight and you guys reach the next round of funding you can restructure
everything based on the partnership agreement.

p.s. I know your pain. I've lost two cofounders. Once who didn't believe in
himself or his abilities, another who didn't share the vision and was more
interested in his ex. ;) it's a tough road.

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Zaronian
It's not the most popular move, but it can totally work in the right industry
if you hustle. If you're trying to build Facebook, stop now. But if you're
working on something sales heavy, B2B, with complicated legal/marketing hoops
or in other words, more business-y needs than killer tech skill needs, then by
all means make a run for it.

I started my company with another biz guy and it worked out. We hustled like
crazy, got sales before there was a product, gave design/coding our best shot
and eventually got lucky enough to find a tech co-founder who could tell that
we were legit. It's not the easiest road, but it'd doable if you are in the
right space with the right person. GL

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iamjonlee
I know I don't have as much experience as some of the other HN users here, but
I think it's definitely possible to succeed with no experience as long as
you're willing to try.

My cofounder and I have a similar story. We are building our first iPhone app
with no prior design or programming experience and it's taken us 11 weeks so
far. We've improved leaps and bounds and we've rewritten parts of the code
over and over again if we find a better way to do it. There's bound to be some
bugs here and there like all apps, but I'm confident we'll launch a solid
product. We've had our first startup already where we hired freelancers and it
was a flop, before we decided to finally do everything ourselves and force
ourselves to learn to design and code.

I just started a blog about it today (blog.grooovy.me). Either way, I wish you
good luck.

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jaypreneur
Well, it's been said. He seemed cool with it. A bit disappointed but trusted
me when I said it would take over a year to really be proficient enough in
coding for this to work and that it wasn't fair to either of us for all that.

I still feel terrible about it. It's a lesson learned I guess.

I don't think it'll hurt our friendship or anything. I hope he doesn't take it
personally, as if I don't trust him or think he's smart enough or something.
Because ultimately it's just out of his control... I assumed, incorrectly, he
could learn the necessary skills far sooner than is reasonable for anyone (no
matter how intelligent) could learn them.

Anyway, I appreciate the advice. All of the advice and some further reading I
did really helped me make this decision. Hopefully it was the right one and
all works out well.

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ianpurton
"I came up with an idea. I researched potential competitors, talked to
potential customers, and overall got good feedback. So, I went along working
out features (as well as refining down to MVP) and started designed a pretty
detailed wireframe."

You certainly sound like the ideal business side of a partnership.

I'm a programmer, I've been coding since I was 13 (28 years ago.) and building
websites since 1999. Here's my most recent <http://strongcoin.com> and one
I've had for a while <http://status2k.com>.

I'd be interested to hear your idea, please contact me on ian.purton at gmail
dot com.

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jaypreneur
Thanks for the honesty pepeto.

I've been struggling with this today. My gut just tells me to break it off,
knowing I was too impatient when jumping to ask him about this. I usually
think everything through and I just didn't do that here.

I think it ultimately will be better for both to not go through together. If
he is still serious about entrepreneurship or coding, he will go along with it
anyway, on his own. And anything I learn on my way I'd be willing to share
with him. Hopefully something like that can happen..

Again, thanks everyone. If anyone else still agrees with this proposition,
please let me know. The more support I can gain, the better I'd feel in
letting him know. Thanks!

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willpower101
imho, if you are successful, you will reach a point where the needs of the
business will eventually outpace a non-hacker's ability to consume and learn
fast enough.

Keep your friend on, but start looking for a coder as a full time co-founder.

And don't be stingy with equity. Vest him in with graduated steps up to 33.3%.
Is the easiest way to find someone of quality.

