
Brexit: Berlin eyes Britain’s tech talent - neverminder
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36642560
======
demonshalo
Eh.. Berlin is a freaking bad place for tech-talent to be in. I relocated
there and worked for about 6 months before I actually came to the conclusion
that it is nothing more than a rip off. I would happily move to the UK over
Berlin in 9.5 out of 10 times.

The German tax rates for singles are ridiculous (40+%) and the salaries are
way below what the UK pays. In addition, the German culture's work mentality
is very similar to that of factories. On top of that, the benefits are non-
existent compared to the UK (let alone the US).

[http://demonshalo.com/the-sad-state-of-the-european-tech-
sce...](http://demonshalo.com/the-sad-state-of-the-european-tech-scene/)

~~~
pjmlp
> German culture's work mentality is very similar to that of factories.

Which is very positive for workers.

I rather have that than the exploitation of workers in IT without unions.

I can enjoy my evenings and weekends without spending a second thinking to get
reached from work, and if I need to be on call I will get properly paid for
it.

~~~
demonshalo
> Which is very positive for workers.

for YOU! not workers. Thinking that what you like is good for everyone else is
rather narcissistic don't you think?

> I rather have that than the exploitation of workers in IT without unions.

What does unions have to do with anything? ... I was referring to the work
mentality as a cultural phenomenon. It is nothing to do with unions -.-

> I can enjoy my evenings and weekends without spending a second thinking to
> get reached from work, and if I need to be on call I will get properly paid
> for it.

That's what I am talking about. Your work for you is just that, work. Which is
perfectly fine. However, There is no way for Germany to ever get a remotely
interesting tech scene with that mentality in place. That's not how you foster
a startup culture.

~~~
calibraxis
Won't mention my overall opinion, though I have some knowledge. Just a warning
about this particular point:

"I’m Zach Holman. I was number nine at GitHub ..."

"More than once I had been confusingly introduced as a founder or CEO of the
company."

"I had been the top committer to the main github/github repository for the
last two years, I had just led the team that shipped one of the last major
changes to the site, and around that time I had had a mid-year performance
review with my manager that was pretty glowing ..."

"I’m pretty broke after working part-time and living in San Francisco for so
long. Even though I helped move a company’s valuation almost two billion
dollars, I haven’t made a dime from the company outside of making a pretty
below-to-average salary. That’s after six years."

([https://zachholman.com/talk/firing-
people](https://zachholman.com/talk/firing-people))

------
throwaway987611
It can eye the tech talent all it wants.

I've lived in Frankfurt and in Berlin. I've lived in Paris. I've lived in
Barcelona.

I've spoken with many stock brokers.

The one common denominator that I have found. Is that you can't just beat the
feel of London.

I know if I had the choice, to live in Europe or live in London. It certainly
would not be Europe.

~~~
AznHisoka
The "feel" of London sounds so vague. What do you mean by it?

~~~
hackerboos
OP is talking about that sinking feeling one feels when over half your
paycheque is spent on rent.

~~~
demonshalo
Yea I know that feeling. It is the same feeling I got when I first saw that my
tax rate in Berlin was @ 42% and then realized that whatever remains has to go
into paying for the rent anyway.

~~~
rostigerpudel
You do mean the _marginal_ tax rate, right? Not the average tax rate. To be
taxed @ 42% (average) in Germany your income would have to be way north of
300k€ [1]. With that kind of income, your social security (health,
unemployment, pension) would already be somewhere below 10% so nothing to
complain about, really, given the benefits (yes, I know the benefits are no
longer what they never used to be).

Add to that the absurd housing costs in, say, London, and things don't look
too shabby for Berlin. Although you need to be tolerant towards the locals. I
can understand some people having problems with that nonchalant "don't care if
you care because, you know, I don't care" attitude that sometimes shows. But
if you're capable of letting the occasional inflammatory/stupid remark slide,
these guys and gals are quite nice. (Protip: This ability is great to have
pretty much anywhere. Hanlon's Razor, anyone?)

To me, London is great to spend a few days of vacation. The atmosphere, the
people, British humour, all great. Still, I never felt the urge to permanently
move there to work. Too crowded, hard to get a decent flat... I guess it's not
always just the money.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany)

~~~
demonshalo
> To be taxed @ 42% (average) in Germany your income would have to be way
> north of 300k€

That is flat out wrong... If it wasn't for the sensitive information, I would
have posted my own tax returns here for all to see.

~~~
rostigerpudel
Erm, no. It is not. Any site describing the German income tax will tell you
that what I wrote is perfectly true. You can verify quite easily for yourself
by following the conveniently provided Wikipedia link.

Maybe you misunderstood your tax return?

------
dijit
Generally speaking the largest portion of tech workers are young. Young
usually means less tied to the ground they're standing and much more willing
to relocate.

Once an exodus has begun the benefits and social compliance will pull a large
portion of hold-fasts into wherever the tech sector would be.

The problem, however, is every country wants the tech sector to thrive, yet
none are really attractive yet. We had a post on HN earlier about Romania,
there was one yesterday about Spain and Netherlands has been on here twice.

It's a chicken and egg problem, where the companies move the people will
follow, you can't expect people to go to Berlin if there aren't enough jobs
and it's a hard sell to a company to move if there is no talent.

But companies absolutely have to make he first move.

~~~
pantalaimon
> you can't expect people to go to Berlin if there aren't enough jobs

But people have been moving to Berlin for years now, regardless of what
Britain was doing.

Affordable flats are already scarce and only getting more expensive - if
anything, I'm afraid Brexit will only accelerate that development.

------
keithpeter
I noticed that as well. Part of me is saying 'easy come easy go' \- weightless
nomads &c.

Part of me is thinking where do England's new companies come from.

We'll find out in the next three to five years. The news machine wants
dramatic events _now_ but this one is more of a glacier.

~~~
niccolop
I agree that the outcome will take time to truly be seen, especially in
startup scene.

It turns out though that roughly 30% of VCs money in the UK comes from the
Europe Investment Fund (as Limited Partners in their funds), which is funded
by the European Central Bank, of which the UK is currently a shareholder,
although it will only be as long as it is a member of the EU.

From an FT article on the subject: "To put some numbers on it, as of the end
of 2015, there were 144 UK private equity funds supported by the EIF and
almost 30,000 small businesses. The EIF estimated that €3bn in equity capital
in 2015 had been enabled by its €655m direct investment that year."

I wonder if that will have an impact on the ability to attract talent?

------
Kenji
You gotta love how incredibly anti-Brexit the media are. They have to
construct all kinds of imaginary scenarios (that haven't happened and probably
will never happen) to bash the democratic decision of the British people.

~~~
sebgr
They democratically elected to basically jump off a cliff so you can't blame
the media for having the time of it's life.

And referendums aren't always a good idea, prop 8 in CA was overturned because
we eventually realised its a bad idea.

~~~
Kenji
_They democratically elected to basically jump off a cliff_

Scare-mongering. If you _have_ to be in the EU to be able to trade, yes, to
survive, then it is time to destroy the EU once and for all. No single entity
should be able to terrorize the citizens of a nation state like that.

~~~
deathcakes
Straw man - no one is saying we won't survive but you would have to be
monumentally dim to not perceive that what has just happened, and what will
continue to happen in Britain as a result of this decision will be orders of
magnitude worse than the alternative - at least in the short to medium term. I
can't predict the long term future and it may well be that the UK somehow
manages to come out of this with more than the south west still part of it but
the path there will involve a lot of suffering.

~~~
Kenji
_Straw man - no one is saying we won 't survive_

He said jumping off the cliff. That is literally just saying the Brits won't
survive. Besides, England will be able to make a trade deal with China
(something the EU doesn't manage to do). Medium- to longterm, the benefits for
the British people will be vast - and I'm not even starting to argue about
political independence.

~~~
deathcakes
Jumping off a cliff != certain death, but I guess thats splitting hairs. You
seem very confident in the face of expert opinion and evidence in front of
you. Does the fact that the people who have masterminded this spectacle seem
to have no plan for what happens next worry you in the slightest?

I notice you use England, possibly a mistake but it seems this is the
underlying attitude of the Leave vote - England is better off by itself. Which
strikes me as frankly hilarious given how much we have to offer the world
besides grumpiness, self deprecation and financial services...

~~~
Kenji
Well, the plan for what happens next depends in a large part on negotiations
with the EU - who doesn't seem to care about negotiating if there is no clear
wakeup call and time limit (like 2 years after taking article 50). The vote
was a first step and clear signal that the British people are unhappy with how
the EU treats them.

I meant to say Britain so yes it was an error. The tensions between England
and Scotland (and to a lesser degree Gibraltar) are unfortunate, especially
that the leave vote increased them again. Same with northern Ireland tensions.
I have no opinion on whether or not they are supposed to stay together since
this seems to be a problem rooted deeply in culture that I might not be able
to fully comprehend.

------
kriro
It will mostly depend on how the work permit situation plays out (and I
suppose on the pound not tanking and making wages less attractive). A lot of
London tech companies have a non-trivial number of non British employees. If
there's any sort of work permit hickup that could be pretty troublesome.

Another advantage of London, the financial sector could get trimmed
substantially if there's an exodus to Frankfurt. I'm not as bullish on London
not facing major issues as a startup hub due to the Brexit as most people I've
talked to.

~~~
jackgavigan
The UK government has demonstrated a willingness to help the UK's tech sector
get the talent it needs from outside the EU by streamlining the process for
getting Tier 1 visas. Even if movement of labour _is_ restricted after Brexit,
I expect there to be a huge difference in the restrictions applied to
unskilled migrants versus skilled migrants. In short, I don't think UK
companies need to worry about being able to bring in the sort of talent they
need.

The fate of London's financial sector will depend on what sort of trade deal
the UK and EU negotiate. The worst case scenario would be if the UK was denied
access to the single market for financial services, including "passporting".
However, the UK imports a lot more from the EU than it exports[1], so
countries like Germany and the Netherlands are likely to accept a deal which
means London continues as Europe's financial capital, in order to protect
their own economies.

1:
[https://twitter.com/JackGavigan/status/747338413754331136](https://twitter.com/JackGavigan/status/747338413754331136)

------
hathym
I live in Paris, politicians here say and hope for the same thing.

------
rjsw
The article seems to be mostly just comments from shovel salesmen.

------
bitL
Berlin = 0% equity. That's all you need to know.

~~~
_pmf_
Well, some people prefer real money to vague promises.

~~~
bitL
"Arm aber sexy" \- Berlin's motto for you ("poor but sexy").

You will be paid super low comparing to other big cities (MUC/HBR/FFM), your
rent will be already on a very similar level, your managers will be selling
you the "vibe", you'll be expected to work like a machine, and the only way
for you to escape by winning the startup lottery by having significant chunk
of equity won't be available to you. Win!

