
The hunger mood - mrfusion
https://aeon.co/essays/hunger-is-psychological-and-dieting-only-makes-it-worse
======
athenot
Good article. I take it a step furter and tie the hunger system to the
satiated feeling one gets from appreciating and savoring the food.

Much has been written about the French Paradox[1] but my belief is that it's
not so much about the individual ingredients' metabolic properties as it is
about the art of not only crafting but _appreciating_ meals. Savor each bite.
Chew and eat slowly. Think about the food you are eating instead of trying to
ignore it.

An Italian friend had once remarqued to me about his traditional family
dinners where, not only was there an amazing spread of food, people would
spend almost all the meal talking about the food. I have to confess doing the
same in many cases.

I believe this is the biggest problem with American diets: we try to abstract
away the taste and focus on a feature list (anti oxydants, low-carb, high-
this, low-that) and all the while rely on poor shortcuts for actual taste.
Those poor shortcuts are of course sugar, salt and fat. My French background
earns me a perception that I'm a food snob. Perhaps that's true. But things
don't need to have fancy preparations to be appreciated, in fact less
processing is usually more. I can appreciate the favor of unseasoned steamed
rice at a Japanese restaurant, or fresh tomatoes from the garden with no
seasoning.

And yes, over time, you will start craving higher-quality ingredients, for the
simple reason you can taste the difference. But again, it's a matter of being
appreciative, whether it's an elaborate preparation or a simple unseasoned
ingredient.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_paradox)

~~~
rublev
I count every calorie I eat and maintain an extremely strict diet while
spending only 2hr on prep/week. I heat my meal up in 30s, scoop it in, and I'm
done with it, it's just fuel to me now.

I did this to enforce discipline and consistency, but now that I'm there I'd
like to start introducing some more advanced cooking techniques and flavours.
Where do I start? I'd love to be able to make some advanced platters for
guests in the future.

I've essentially completely squeezed out all fun from food and broke down the
entire process.

~~~
greendestiny
Serious eats food lab recipes are fun and effective. Additionally very highly
rated food network or taste recipes are usually good and simple.

------
ProxCoques
It also doesn't help that our culture treats hunger like it's a disease to be
cured. Hungry? Quick - grab a snack before it gets worse and you start wasting
away! We work hard to "stave off" hunger when in fact it's really no big deal
and can be ignored for quite a while until it's convenient to eat.

~~~
nadezhda18
it's very simple - this approach drives sales. It would be surprising if the
food companies did not tap into our very natural feeling of not liking hunger

~~~
bresc
That is one reason for sure, but there are also cultural reasons. e.g.
romanian culture basically encourages overeating.

------
martinko
> For six days, one group ate low-carb, the other low-fat. Both were strictly
> forced to eat the same number of calories. The result? The low-carb group
> did not lose more weight.

They can't be serious. Six days? A really 'representative' timeframe right
there...

~~~
DiabloD3
I agree, for most people this should have been at least three months.

~~~
disgruntledphd2
To be fair to the study, all of the participants were in a metabolic ward.
They traded off generality for control, which is a reasonable choice.

It doesn't really speak to the long-term effects (I think the OP pushed that
study too much in the article).

------
sunjain
I must say this is one of the best articles I have seen on obesity. This
clearly lays out how psychology plays more important roles in obesity than
merely focusing on diet/exercise. I had come to the same conclusion after
trying different diets but the author lays out a very scientific explanation
of how it works. One thing very important pointed out by the author is this:
more you try to lose weight by controlling diet and/or exercise, more it
activates your hunger drive. Instead just have some middle of the road
guidelines(not too much carb, not too little fat, no calorie counting) and use
this guideline to eat till you feel satiated(more you control yourself thru
willpower, more it activates your hunger drive). As more and more people get
confused by the contradictory recommendations, flip-flops in results of
different type of diets, eventually the psychological aspect, as laid out by
the author, will get more attention. Hopefully.

~~~
mattmanser
He himself explicitly says that his methodology was NOT scientific because of
sample size of 1.

It's all wild speculation on his part wrapped up in speculative scientific
language.

Maybe he is right, but your reaction is precisely what we need to stop doing.

~~~
thewopr
Maybe. But the author of the article at least does make it fairly clear what
he's arguing for. Not that his diet is the perfect one, but that we need far
more research into the hunger drive, not the chemistry of food and sustenance.

While many scientists would scoff at him making this argument outside of the
scholarly journal orbit, it's actually a pretty good place to do it. Many
scientists I know read broadly, and many decision makers at funding
organizations are looking for ideas and perspectives wherever they find them,
not just in journals. Especially as, in most journals, this would have gotten
promptly rejected as the "study" wasn't scientific. But the point is made and
shouldn't be ignored (IMHO).

------
partycoder
For a start, cut the sugar. Especially from sugary drinks: a non-diet soda can
has ~40g of sugar (10 teaspoons), which is really awful. There's a reason for
why there's no sugar daily recommended value, and is because that value is 0.

Then, make sure to consume enough soluble and insoluble dietary fiber. To stay
healthy you need not only to assimilate nutrients, but also your body needs to
get rid of byproducts. Fiber facilitates that process.

Then, instead of eating less, you can also replace ingredients and eat more
frequently. There's an energy cost to eating, and eating more frequently makes
you spend more energy. By replacing ingredients I mean cutting butter and
cheese and replace it with tofu, full eggs by egg whites, for instance.

Then, drink water with your meals. Filling yourself with water can help you
trick your brain into believing you are full.

Then, there's the bacteria in your gut and that affects what is going on when
you eat. I think it's a very important aspect that needs to be considered but
I have no idea how to take action around this specific part. Probiotics might
help.

Finally, starving yourself not necessarily works. Some people might end their
diet and go back to overeating. Then, starving yourself might have negative
side effects.

~~~
DanBC
> Then, there's the bacteria in your gut and that affects what is going on
> when you eat. I think it's a very important aspect that needs to be
> considered but I have no idea how to take action around this specific part

Your suggestions to reduce sugar and increase dietary fibre will help a lot
with gut flora.

~~~
chillingeffect
Consuming fermented foods may help, too. I enjoy pickles and sometimes kefir.
Powdered miso soup may be a short path, too.

------
timeu
For me personally this worked quite well for reducing bodyfat:

Intermitted fasting[1] and lifting weights 3 times a week[2] and being on a
cutting regime[3] (cutting on the rest days with low carb and loading on the
workout days wiht more carbs).

In the beginning IF was quite difficult but after a while the body get used to
it and also I tend to have less cravings during the day. On the loading
days/workout days I often have a hard time to get enoug calories because I
feel full. I am using MyFitnessPal to track what I eat but it's more about the
macros and not so much about the exact calories (but it's also good to get a
feeling how much calories different kinds of food has)

[1] [http://www.leangains.com/2011/03/intermittent-fasting-for-
we...](http://www.leangains.com/2011/03/intermittent-fasting-for-weight-
loss.html) [2] [http://stronglifts.com/](http://stronglifts.com/) [3]
[http://www.lgmacros.com/standard-leangains-macro-
calculator/](http://www.lgmacros.com/standard-leangains-macro-calculator/)

~~~
clessg
Fasting has been a godsend for me. Not only is it great for losing weight if
you can handle it (it gets much easier with time), but I feel noticeably
sharper and more productive when I fast.

It's fascinating how ingrained the concept of constant eating is in Western
civilization. You can lose 100 pounds and keep it off, but tell people you
fast and it's "but what about starvation mode? You need to eat 6 times a day
or you'll die." Tell others you skip breakfast and some people actually get
offended.

~~~
nadezhda18
heh so agree with you! What else do u do in addition to fastening?

in my case (see my other comment in this thread) I do not feel it gives me any
benefits in terms of body, only psychological ones.

------
jeandejean
This article is a deception. The author is clearly taking his psychologist
background on, and that's why one very obvious scientific fact is being
forgotten here: when losing weight rapidly, the body adapts and slows
metabolism to burning less calories. The outcome is that in a few years, no
doubt our great psychologist is going back to its 20 extra pounds, maybe with
a little 2 pounds premium for attempting to mislead his body. No matter the
psychology of every aspect of hunger, your body will win back its lost
calories! The biggest loser might be the one losing weight, the biggest winner
will be your metabolism.

Actually the "biggest loser" wonderfully proves that point, and was described
in that well-written New York Times article that is worth a million times more
reading than the "hunger mood":
[http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-
weigh...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-
loss.html)

~~~
android521
this is a very defeatist attitude. It is not like lose weight once, and you
are set for life. You have to maintain the same eating habits that make you
lose weight.

~~~
jeandejean
Exactly! You have to change your eating habits to a healthier standard. Fast-
paced diets are doomed to failure because of your body response that I
explained. Losing weight is all about finding an healthy diet that you won't
give up after having lost weight.

~~~
mercer
Indeed, changing habits in general seems to be a better approach than any
'fast' tricks.

That said, Could there be at least _some_ benefit to the fast diet in that you
get to experience what it's like to have lost (significant) weight?

It seems to be a common experience with addictions of various kinds that
merely having had the (recent) experience of 'being clean' can be a great
motivator to do it again or try and maintain it, because part of the problem
is not remembering what things were like pre-addiction. It's not a magical
solution, but it helps.

From my own experiences with bouts of depression, simply experiencing joy
again, even briefly, would make me remember what it was like pre-depression,
and would often be a first step towards 'recovery'.

------
rukuu001
When fasting, I noticed hunger struck hardest at my regular mealtimes. Half
hour later it was mostly gone.

~~~
bambax
This is mentioned in the article: "If you skip a meal, at first you feel
acutely hungry, but then you actually begin to feel less hungry again as that
accustomed mealtime passes by."

------
tbrownaw
Yep, hunger is psychological and based on unconscious predictive analytics
rather than current state.

Which is why eating slowly and preferring things that digest slowly is so
immediately effective at reducing calorie intake (and thereby reducing
weight). (As a bonus, it also reduces sugar high/crash minor mood swings.)

...wait, what?

.

I've noticed at least three kinds of being hungry. One is the "sugar crash"
variety, one is the "oh, I forgot to eat this morning. _That 's_ what's wrong
with me" kind, and one is the "not eating for a weekend actually kind of sucks
and I am _never doing this experiment again_ " type.

.

(Also, I experimented with calorie counting for a while. Write everything down
immediately in advance -- the same principle I discovered in order to avoid
"wait, what did I do this week" for my timesheets at work -- and it works
fine.)

~~~
meowface
I probably just have something wrong with me, but I generally feel pretty
alert and happy if I go 8-10 hours without eating. As long as I stay hydrated.

~~~
nadezhda18
8-10 of not eating is really nothing, barely covers the sleeping period

------
hliyan
"If you skip a meal, at first you feel acutely hungry, but then you actually
begin to feel less hungry again as that accustomed mealtime passes by..."

I've experienced this quite a bit, especially if I happen to be too busy to
feel the passage of time or have no clocks within sight.

------
apatters
This was a good read as the author approaches the problem from a unique
direction, but the outcome is hardly surprising: a very obese man who eats
large amounts of carbs starts eating a moderate amount instead, and loses a
lot of weight. Nothing new there.

~~~
taneq
Oh but it's nothing to do with the calories, it's all about his state of mind,
don't you see?

~~~
apatters
What I got from it was that adherence to a dietary rule IS a matter of state
of mind and for most people it's easier to adhere to a more moderate dieting
regime.

All rings true to me and a moderate shift in diet can have a big impact for
the very obese. If you are only a little bit fat and your diet is already
reasonably clean though, then I'm not sure how well this works. The thinner
you get the more sacrifices you need to make to lose the next pound.

------
Joof
After dieting for about a week, I became accustomed to it and no longer feel
hungry. I actually feel a little sick if I eat anywhere near as much as I used
to. Lost 20 pounds in the last 2 months, which honestly might be a bit too
fast, but it's hard to complain.

I like to cook and eat a pretty wide variety of food which helps. Dal Bhat
(lentils with curry spice eaten by Tibetan mountainers) has become one of my
staples. Strength training is also important, but I don't expect to get
stronger; just maintain. I still drink a fair amount of beer 1-3 days a week
and occasionally eat poorly with friends (maybe every other week), but it
hasn't seemed to be a big problem.

~~~
erikb
If you tried anything for 2 months please don't talk about results. Talk about
results in 2 years. Most people don't make it over 6 or 12 months. Also look
for having experienced at least one life shaking event and still be on it a
month or two later. That kind of event would having your dog die, losing your
job, being for some reason required (and unwilling) to move to another
town/country, having a wife/gf break up with you, etc.

Without sufficient time investment and having been through situations where
you simply don't have discipline for a few months, anything you do has no
value and no proof. Because if you fail in these two terms you will end up
with more weight than before your attempt.

~~~
Joof
I suppose that's fair.

However; it doesn't really feel like discipline -- it's just how I eat at this
point. I can report back in a few months, I imagine I'll have to start working
my way back to eating enough to gain strength again around then. I experienced
an event to the scale of my dog dying last month, but I imagine a divorce
could be somewhat more taxing.

~~~
duncanawoods
I don't think your challenge will be discipline, willpower or handling stress
but simply overcoming the body's hormonal response to dieting.

I have frequently cut bf for sports using a range of diets (keto, low fat,
IF). I actually enjoy dieting - the precision, the discipline, the visible
progress, going to bed every night "a winner" etc. When dieting I don't crave
junk and the hunger pains quickly go away... however, after 16 weeks on a
strict diet when my bf approaches 10%, that is when I get ambushed by a
terrible appetite for junk. I will wake up at 02:00 with a knawing craving for
donuts or other foods that I don't even enjoy. I won't be able to sleep and
have to lie there for hours fantasising about them. I can brute force my way
through it for a couple of miserable months but the appetite stays until I
have regained bf at which point I lose interest in junk food again.

You are on the easy bit for now but the consequence of fat loss is that at
some point, your body will flip the ghrelin switch and you will become an
unstoppable eating machine until you have yoyo'd back to or beyond your
starting position. In my experience, the rebound is related to time and bf
rather than the actual dieting method. Its probably genetic, i.e. some people
won't experience this but I think most do which is why most attempts at fat
loss don't stick.

~~~
Joof
Maintaining sub 10% bodyfat sounds like quite a task. I'm sure some athletes
can do it. I'm probably just below 20% and hadn't exercised until roughly 2
months before starting a diet (started strength training), so I have some
wiggle room. Even so, people like myself seem to have difficulty maintaining
the loss after the fact, which concerns me.

My suspicion is that There's so much conflicting information on weight loss
that I'm not sure if it will work, but my plan is to start tapering off the
diet 50-100 calories a week as I approach that point to determine my new
maintainence intake and maybe speed metabolism back up.

However; after a little research, I think my current diet may be succeeding
(in short-term) largely from a large increase in resting metabolism from
strength training (and no longer eating a surplus to build that muscle).

------
everyone
I'm 34 and have been slowly getting fatter over the past couple of years
despite regular attempts to "get back in shape". I tried a low carb diet a few
months ago and it has worked for me.

[https://postimg.org/image/5qx79cmtn/](https://postimg.org/image/5qx79cmtn/)

I dont eat any sugar, bread, potatoes, rice, pasta etc. But I can still treat
myself to fatty stuff like greek yogurt, hummus, sausages, cheeseburgers (with
no bun) etc.

ps. Its great to see a psychologist talking about the brain! Psychology seems
to be growing up.

~~~
antisthenes
Were you consuming the exact same amount of calories with a normal-carb and
low-carb diet?

------
msoto
The main thesis of this article, as stated directly by the subtitle, is that
"hunger isn’t in your stomach or your blood-sugar levels. It’s in your mind –
and that’s where we need to shape up". Interestingly enough, the author then
proceeds to tell us that he changed his diet to something that looks a lot
like a regular low-carb diet, and lost a lot of weight, without having much
hunger or cravings.

That low-carb diets reduce hunger and thus often bring people to eat less has
been known for quite a while. Gary Taubes' NYT article from 2002, "What if
It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?" [1] describes this phenomenon in detail, and
tells how it's been known to researchers for already quite some time. The
explanation however, doesn't seem to be merely "psychological" but rather
physiological: in Taubes' words "[Sugar, starches and floor] are known in the
jargon as high-glycemic-index carbohydrates, which means they are absorbed
quickly into the blood. As a result, they cause a spike of blood sugar and a
surge of insulin within minutes. The resulting rush of insulin stores the
blood sugar away and a few hours later, your blood sugar is lower than it was
before you ate. As [David] Ludwig [a Harvard endocrinologist] explains, your
body effectively thinks it has run out of fuel, but the insulin is still high
enough to prevent you from burning your own fat. The result is hunger and a
craving for more carbohydrates."

Personally, I moved to a low-carb style of nutrition about two years ago and,
lost about 8kg over a period of several months and have managed to keep the
low weight ever since, without suffering hunger or cravings. It may not sound
like much, but I wasn't obese to start with but towards the high end of the
normal BMI range, whereas now I'm right in the middle of the range with a
weight I hadn't have since my early 20s (I'm 45 now). My nutrition style is
like the one explained in this website [2] which, incidentally, looks pretty
much like the diet described in the article.

[1] [http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-
all-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-
big-fat-lie.html?pagewanted=all) [2] [http://www.dietdoctor.com/low-
carb](http://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb)

------
131hn
Never eat _any_ snacks, as it's no time (do not eat between lunch) for it. If
you skip a meal, you WILL be hungry, and it's fine, you won't die, next time,
do not skip meal. Drink water, drink wine at table, it's never time for sodas,
so don't. Now, without tv in front of you (focus on cooking and eating) , eat
meat, bread, butter, whatever, and you'll be just fine

------
Broken_Hippo
I've lost weight and kept it off for years by using a similar method.
Sometimes the weight just seemed to melt off, though I've had to tweak a few
times to get to my current weight. I was nearly obese at one time, and am now
no where near overweight. With each of these changes came some weight loss and
habit changes. Basically, all I found was to learn what works with your body
and build healthier food habits.

First, I started eating less meat. This was mostly due to having gall bladder
surgery: Afterwards digestion of those fats was more difficult. Though this
improved, the habit stuck.

I started eating more vegetables. I didn't cut fat or carbs or anything, just
added in vegetables. A few formerly disliked vegetables are now in my pallet.
I figured out I could like a lot of foods simply by repeated exposure.

I eventually went mostly vegetarian. I eat fish once or twice a week and meat
substitutes. I don't suggest this unless it fits with you, but I feel better
and enjoy foods more. I did similar things with other foods - eat fruit
instead of drinking fruit juice, whole grain pasta and better breads. I still
dislike milk.

I cut out soda. I didn't really plan to for weight loss, but after a while it
tasted syrupy. I now only occasionally (every 1-2 months) drink it. I
eventually cut out sugar from coffee, more for simplicity in ordering.

I started cooking daily, and if I want a certain food, I just plan to make it
or buy it. I eat candy regularly, for example. I eat until I am very full
every night. Most meals are simple, but I do make my own bread. This is more
habit building than anything, but I found I enjoy food more and nearly always
feel satisfied. It helped moving to a country with less ready-made foods.

I paid attention to when I am the most hungry. For me, no matter how much I
eat during the day, I want a good deal of food in the evening meal, and
generally want a nightly snack. I figured it was silly to eat lots during the
day, and the my snacking habits just kept me going. Breakfast is usually black
coffee. I might eat a piece of bread with a slice of cheese a few hours after
waking, but otherwise I just eat a handful of chips, nuts, fruit, or something
similar. The snacking habit really started from laziness and simplicity, but
it works.

As far as exercise is concerned, I don't like it. But my main form of
transportation is walking, and I gained slightly when I stopped having places
to go, so I might have to actually make an effort to do this more often.

~~~
nadezhda18
sounds too good to be true - or you must be walking a LOT every day!

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Yeah, I did walk quite a bit. I was pretty tired at first, but got very used
to it. We didn't have a vehicle until a couple months ago and it isn't worth
it to drive in town. Besides, I'm not legal to drive here yet. A single bus
ride costs more than a latte here, and I didn't want to spend the money on a
bus pass. Especially when it didn't really seem to save myself much time. So
walking has been my main form of transportation for a few years.

My average commute for a long while was around 30 minutes one way, 5 days a
week with a backpack, plus walking to the grocery store a few times a week
(10-15 minutes) and the occasional walk to the town center - about 50 minutes
one way.

I'm in mid-Norway, so the terrain is hilly to steep inclines. The city is big
for norway - about 180-200k people. I do a lot of walking in the cold - I'm
not sure if that makes a difference or not, but some things suggest it does
make a difference.

------
Havoc
I found that this is a battle that is largely won/lost in the supermarket. I
eat whatever is available at home...so if I can keep my sht together for those
30 mins of shopping then it'll be fine. And realistically 30 mins...you can
force that via pure power of will.

------
dreamfactory2
Losing weight is not as impossible a mission as the author makes out. Plenty
of people on /r/loseit who have lost significant weight. All reduced calories
and almost all used myfitnesspal to track them.

~~~
doki_pen
do you know the long term success rate though? I've lost over 50 pounds and
kept it off for a couple of years, but my body eventually went back to it's
normal weight.

~~~
antisthenes
Counting calories and exercise isn't something you stop doing once you reach
your healthy weight.

Also, calling your overweight self _normal weight_ is probably a bad mentality
for long term weight loss goals.

------
knocte
My technique has been: eat only when you're hungry, instead of succumbing to
imposed eating schedules (breakfast time, lunch time, dinner time). It has
worked well for me.

~~~
Digit-Al
Unfortunately that's not an option available to many people. There are many
jobs that only allow breaks to be taken at mandated times.

------
k__
Bulking for 5 months now. Hunger is only a faded memory.

------
nercury
Good article, but loosing 50 pounds over 2 months seems impossible. I always
thought the optimal weight loss rate was max 2-3 pounds per week.

~~~
dualogy
Just because one is considered "optimal", the other needn't be "impossible".

Bodyfat is tissue and so carries a certain cost to maintain. Why do so when
all of a sudden a massive abundance of fatty acids is ingested on the daily.
Plus: when you first near-eliminate carbs after decades of eating them, no
amount of safe gluconeogenesis can keep up with the initially-still-high
glucose demands of all tissues and mitochondria (until over time they "adapt"
themselves to burn mostly/near-only fatty acids and/or ketones). This takes
quite a while to complete to perfection, and the still-much-needed glucose can
in the meantime be furnished by breaking down body-fat into triglycerides (no
harm in doing that since so much fat is coming in already), turning two
glycerin backbones into one glucose molecule, and keep the free fatty acids
circulating or discard them.

------
lucraft
Although he seems desperate to deny it, the TL;DR is "went on a low carb diet,
effortlessly lost weight".

~~~
msoto
Dead on! According to his own description, he was eating "salmon, peanut
butter, pork chops, apples, tomatoes, chicken with the skin, tofu, eggs",
which looks to me like a regular low-carb, high-fat (LCHF) diet as described,
for example, here: [http://www.dietdoctor.com/low-
carb](http://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb)

By the way, high-fat doesn't mean you have to "snack on entire sticks of
butter" as the author suggests. Just eating the naturally-occurring fat in
foods such as meat and dairy will usually do, and that's what most experts
recommend.

