
"Cruises were priced similarly to assisted living centers and more efficacious" - GuiA
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15507078
======
ch00
Cruises are priced such because cruise ship workers are paid incredibly low
wages:

"The Cruise Lines International Association says its "crew members are
provided wages that are competitive with international pay scales." But a
cleaner aboard a Royal Caribbean ship, for example, will work 12 hours a day,
seven days a week, for as little as $156.25 a week with no tips. U.S. labor
laws are not applicable to provide protection to crew members at sea, nor is
there any real oversight of the cruise lines' operations."

<http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/13/opinion/walker-cruise-ships>

~~~
coldcode
Unlike people who read articles I like to talk with the working folks when I
am on a cruise. Yes they work long hours for often 7-9 month contracts. But
the pay they get is better than anything they could ever get in their home
country. A lot of them get to spend several months at home for every contract
but are always eager to go out again. It's isn't an easy life but looking at
it from a rich country it seems like slavery. But most of them find the work
acceptable for the pay compared to their home. Some cruise lines are much
nicer to their employees than others and most of them know who.

I bet that nice piece of fruit you are eating was picked by someone from a
poor country who is likely working illegally because the money at that farm is
pretty good where they came from. Yes it might seem exploitative to us but
their own country is much worse. Something we might not be willing to do for
any money other people are happy to do it for any wage.

~~~
e12e
So, your argument is that since the mechanism of globalization works on such
a, well, global scale, cruise owners taking advantage by purchasing labour at
slave prices in order to sell cruises cheaply to those near the top of the
global pyramid (if not on the summit) means it's not exploitation any more?

> Something we might not be willing to do for any money other people are happy
> to do it for any wage.

Define "happy". Happy to do it rather than starve, or happy to do it rather
than live in the abundance a fair share of the global output would entitle
them to (for almost any definition of "fair share" - other than "handed down
by previous and current war profiteers").

> ... it seems like slavery ... Some cruise lines are much nicer to their
> employees than others

Right. And I'm sure if it _was_ slavery, some slave masters would be nicer to
their slaves than others.

(I think I'm coming off more harshly against coldcode than I really intend to
here.

I am trying to make the point that precisely because we live in a world that
is unfair, defending unfairness when it is obvious will not help improve
things. That is, assuming we would like to see things become more fair.

I do agree that too many people will react to obvious unfairness, and then
ignore all the not so obvious wrongs we tend to contribute to everyday -- and
which is almost impossible to simply "opt out" of (eg: trying to do good by
recycling electronics, only to find that circuit boards are melted over open
flames by children in China, destroying lives and ground water tables)).

~~~
icebraining
_I am trying to make the point that precisely because we live in a world that
is unfair, defending unfairness when it is obvious will not help improve
things._

Playing Devil's advocate: it wasn't the cruise companies who created the
unfairness; they are just performing arbitrage. Eliminating it won't eliminate
the unfairness; in fact, it might make it worse.

~~~
JulianMorrison
So you regulate it. A good way to do that would be to have labor rights
preconditions for docking or doing business.

~~~
icebraining
And if you up the regulations enough to make it anywhere near non-
exploitative, the cruise companies will just stop hiring foreign workers and
leave them unemployed, furthering the inequality between developed and
developing countries.

~~~
jellicle
There's no evidence for that. Aren't we told repeatedly that companies will
simply pass cost increases on to their customers? Can't have it both ways. Is
it really the case that a ship full of millionaires can't charge enough to pay
people $7.25/hour?

~~~
twoodfin
Which "millionaire-class" cruise lines are paying such low rates? I thought we
were discussing Carnival, Royal Caribbean and such.

Regardless, demand for cruises is not extremely elastic. Make them more
expensive and there will be fewer of them as people make alternative vacation
plans. Thus fewer opportunities for poor workers. Not to mention, those
workers' competitive advantage is their willingness to work for the lower
rates. Take that away, and the lines will start hiring closer to home.

------
coldcode
I met an elderly woman that lived on a cruise ship. She need a walked but was
otherwise in good health. She knew everyone on the ship, and made new friends
with every cruise. To her it was an awesome life, rather than being stuck in
some home. The discounts you get for multiple cruises made it quite affordable
for her. Eventually she would need more healthcare but she was going to stay
as long as she could.

I wouldn't mind it either if the internet was better...

~~~
hkmurakami
My parents went on a few nice cruises after all their children went off to
college, and they had the same experience of meeting such people who were
using cruises as retirement homes. When my parents shared this story with me,
I had a similar reaction as you did.

I imagine such a life would be much more interesting than life stuck in a
single place with no new faces.

------
Eliezer
Is this because assisted living centers have more regulatory barriers or
burdens than cruise ships? Intuitively it does not seem like the costs should
be the same.

------
andybak
Am I the only person who initially assumed this was a Swiftian proposal
intended to highlight the gross over-charging for assisted living?

~~~
VLM
The purpose of assisted living is to adsorb the remaining financial resources
out of the residents. Its a battle of giant corporations to prevent any
inheritance from reaching the heirs. In the great feast at your financial
corpse, will your wealth go to the banks, as mortgage interest, or the
hospital, or the assisted living... they're all going to be pretty pissed off
if the cruise ships start competing on their turf. So expect some "journalism"
aka marketing news releases about horrible cruise ships.

Given that multi-industry business model, how long do you think it would take
until cruise ships join that business model? If the residents are not kicked
out off the ship until they're utterly destitute, that cruise ship operator is
leaving money on the table.

Its like arguing about how a hospital room costs more than a motel 6 room.
Well, duh, you're not going to squeeze blood from a rock at a motel.

What sucks about this for everyone, aside from the injustice of it all,
jackals at a corpse, etc, is that the new business model is completely
incompatible with the old business model. When my wife and I got married, long
ago, we went on a fun honeymoon cruise. This option will be removed with the
new business model. Technically perhaps possible as newlyweds, but the terms
will be something weird like 10% of your remaining net worth per week or
whatever instead of just a fixed price "competitive with all inclusive
resorts"

~~~
Shivetya
Before you demagogue the assisted care industry you might want to look at the
government as well, Medicade will confiscate estates to pay for care. This was
a wonderful feature of the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993. States
are required to recover costs.

My grandmother's stay at a retirement/assisted living home added years to her
life. She also got to meet new people and most important, had an active life.
Far better than people bound up in their home alone till they pass.

------
BasilAwad
This is a great idea. Instead of settling in a retirement home, which always
seemed so depressing to me, abandoned seniors (I know not ALL cases are the
same) can at least enjoy travel and a constant change of atmosphere if they so
desire.

The sad thing though is that this paper is from 2004. I wonder what action, if
any, has been taken since.

As a side note, I also know that some people have family members that need
medical care. I just hope I'm never put in a difficult situation where I would
consider putting my parents in a retirement home. But if it was a cruise! Not
so bad! That's like a permanent vacation!

------
jacquesm
Noro virus outbreaks on cruise ships would put a relatively quick end to that
if it were to become popular. Of course you have those in nursing homes as
well but a cruise ship is a particularly nice setting. Lots of people in close
proximity, and if there is an outbreak you can't really avoid contact with
infected others unless you lock yourself in your cabin.

------
rosser
Cruise ship retirement communities were a plot element in Albert Brooks'
novel, _2030_ , which is definitely worth the quick read.

~~~
gregpilling
Also the movie Wall-E

------
kashnikov
What if serious medical care is required, i.e. surgery?

~~~
bdcravens
Probably no different than if a younger traveler was injured and needing
medical attention: they'd triage it onboard, and provide emergency care at the
next port-of-call if needed. Worst case scenario, helicopter ride to a major
hospital.

~~~
brotchie
Any idea what level of medical care they can provision on-ship? I'd presume
they have morgue facilities, given the negatively skewed age distribution, but
no operating theatre?

~~~
rdl
They're obviously focused on emergency medicine and cardiac care. Digital
radiography, EKGs, external pacemakers, a lab, etc. They can do
cricothyrotomy, but certainly aren't set up for major surgery. Basically
anything you'd want in an ER but not OR.

Although there are some ships doing cosmetic surgery at sea, and there are
proposals for cruise ship medical tourism.

~~~
justincormack
And there was a ship moored off Ireland performing abortions at one point.

~~~
Someone
That, in at least one case (and, AFAIK, all cases) wasn't commercial, but
ideological: [http://www.womenonwaves.org/en/page/769/in-
collection/2582/i...](http://www.womenonwaves.org/en/page/769/in-
collection/2582/ireland-2001)

Also, I would not call that surgery.

~~~
rdl
Better example is something like the USNS Comfort and USNS Mercy (or really
any big surface combatant in the USN); they can do real surgery.

I'd argue that Comfort and Mercy could do more good for US national security
at sea, combined with LPD/LPH for cargo transport and personnel, than any
other surface ships in the US fleet -- humanitarian missions probably improve
security more than anything but the submarine nuclear deterrent.

------
ctdonath
Having just gotten off my first cruise, I'm amazed at how plausible this
suggestion is, at least for a narrow category of folks of limited mobility but
otherwise stable health.

Heck, I could see a modest startup taking on handling the logistics of such an
arrangement.

