

Ask HN: Programmers Without Relevant Degree - barry-cotter

How did you get your first job programming?<p>A friend of mine finds it difficult to believe that one can get a job programming without the credential. I'm telling him that it's helpful not necessary, if you can show you can code.
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philbarr
Without going into too much detail, my life kinda screwed up in my late teens
(mostly by me), and I had few qualifications and wasn't really going anywhere.

I didn't have any degree and after a miserable period on the dole started work
at a data entry place. I'd been interested in programming since my first ZX81,
and started finding things I could do to optimise the data entry process.
Naturally, the company loved this and I got promoted. I used that as a
portfolio for my next, slightly more developer-like job, and then wrote their
website and e-survey stuff for them and used that as a portfolio for the
_next_ job and so on. I had a very clear plan - work for a proper software dev
company one day.

11 years later and I'm the best paid dev in the building, working for a large
multi-national, with a fancy title and everything. And have been for a few
years now.

You don't need to have a degree to prove you can do something, you just need
to do it. Even _with_ a degree it's all about drive and determination. So - if
you want to get into programming then write plenty of your own stuff, or get
into lots of Open Source, then get a list of firms in your area and ring them
to try to get them to look at what you've done.

When I interview people these days, that's what I'm looking for - enthusiasm
about their craft, not necessarily their credentials. We've hired some people
with top class degrees who unfortunately think the learning stops there.

Think of a degree just as a short cut to an interview, if you happen to
already have the degree. Oh - but stay away from big firms, you'll never get
past a Human Resources department with enthusiasm alone.

The irony is that I'm now getting sick of being employed to write endless
enterprise drivel, and now my ambitions are to do with starting out for
myself. Hence reading lots of HN.

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hamletdrc2
I have found through experience that different cultures/markets require
different qualifications. In the US you can create some practical experience
(home projects) for yourself and usually find a lower-paying entry level
position with a smaller company. After a few years experience you don't get
asked about your lack of formal education anymore (this is what I did by the
way, I have a Sociology undergrad).

In London, I found that people are much more interested in degrees and
pedigree. Job interviews often started with education questions first, and I
feel like I was considered less valuable because of the lack of CS background
(that was my opinion at least).

In Switzerland, where I am now, the people I encounter place a very high value
on training programs. Scrummaster training is more valuable than Scrum
experience and programming certificates are important in a way I never
expected. However, the Swiss have a very strong culture of apprenticeship and
"Lehrling" programs, and both shops I have worked in have many more interns
than I have seen elsewhere. And the interns are often in the last phase of
their Masters degree!

This is all just experiential and not very quantitative. But my answer is it
depends on where you live. If you agree to work for less than the next person
then I think you have a very good chance of landing a programming job.

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oscarduignan
It really depends on what type of programming you and your friend are talking
about, it may be worth clarifying this with him.

Though from personal experience I would say with most jobs (and especially
those relating to web development), lack of experience and social skills will
play a larger roll in whether or not you're able to secure the position you
want rather than lack of a degree.

~~~
barry-cotter
How would one recommend getting that experience?

I imagine in web development, writing stuff and putting it on a portfolio site
or github would be pretty good, or patching an existig community website, or
writing stuff for charities or small businesses.

But for other types of programming? What would be the best way to get
internships, or to develop something that can showcase your abilities?

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timrobinson
What degrees does your friend see as being relevant?

Most job specs I've seen look for a technical/scientific/quantitative degree.
This doesn't have to be something related to computing: it normally translates
to degrees such as maths, engineering and physics.

Getting a first programming job without any degree is harder, although if you
show you can code (via prior experience) then it's not a big deal.

Looking for a first programming job with an unrelated degree (say, something
creative) and no experience might raise some eyebrows.

~~~
barry-cotter
He has a B.A. and M.A. in Classics, and is doing a B.A.I. in Engineering at
the moment. He has a decent grasp of the theory of C++, having read through
Stroustrup though I'm not sure how good the practice is.

In Ireland, we've recently moved from a four year B.Eng. (Honours) system for
professional qualification to three year Bachelor (Ordinary) with a subsequent
two year Masters being necessary for professional accreditation. Given that
it's a new programme no one has any idea how the new degree will be viewed in
the marketplace.

I'm of the opinion that it'll be a good standalone qualification, he isn't.

~~~
bartonfink
It can be done with nearly that exact degree. My B.A. is in Latin, but I was
able to leverage that plus a good interview into an internship at a good
company. I took that experience and got a job at a small software company as
well as a spot in an M.S. program, which then led to better opportunities. It
hasn't been a straight road, but it's gotten me where I wanted to go. I think
your friend can do the same.

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airfoil
I started off doing software tech support. While doing support I built tools
to streamline and automate things. Managers took notice and offered me a job
where it was a blend of coding, system analysis, and handling escalated
support issues. I automated pretty much everything in that job as well. At
that point I had some useful experience on my resume so I started interviewing
for "pure" software engineering jobs.

I've been a software engineer for the last 10 years. No CS degree (though I
did study engineering), but I love building stuff and I think that passion
came through in my interviews.

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tmachinecharmer
If you don't have a degree but do have the required coding skills you will get
that job.

I have till date met 1000 programmers who have degrees from reputed institutes
but don't know shit about coding.

@philbarr's method is actually very cool.

In the beginning you can work for start-ups and then switch.

Also: Take a look at this post Why can't programmers program?? by Jeff Atwood
[http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/02/why-cant-
programmer...](http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/02/why-cant-programmers-
program.html)

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AngeloAnolin
I think programmers have one common skill set that gets them off to software
development - mathematical acumen.

Of course, it should still go with passion and and tenacity to become a good
developer. There's a lot of programmers / coders out there who did not have
any formal degree or training in the field of software development but have
made some great strides. The key thing here is in doing it, execution and
making value out of the codes you write.

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madhouse
I don't have a degree, yet, I never found it an issue to get a job. How? I had
my name all over the internet, patches, bug reports and quality code.

In most cases, that weighted a lot more than any degree I could've achieved.

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troyk
If he loves to code credentials are irrelevant, otherwise he needs to
credential up.

