
Once the full stop meant a sentence was over – now it means you're angry - sjcsjc
http://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2013/11/once-full-stop-meant-sentence-was-over-now-it-means-youre-angry
======
D9u
I always strive to use correct spelling and punctuation regardless of the
media used and tend to view people who fail to do so as being less educated
than those who take the time to do as I do.

So fuck off if you misconstrue a properly placed bit of punctuation.

~~~
TheSOB888
I have to agree with vdianuk (or whatever) here. You may not think you're
being judgmental by applying criteria to others' grammar, but you are.

You aren't writing a book; you're talking to someone. IMing in completely
perfect sentences does give an air of distance.

~~~
Zancarius
On the other hand, couldn't it be construed as just as judgmental when you
feel that way about "perfect" sentences?

There's something to be said about taking the written word at face value and
trying not to read into it much. I suspect the latter is because, without
verbal cues or body language present, the human brain requires addition input
to read the emotional state of the writer. Without that, it examines things
that are probably incidental and meaningless but certainly not without
consequence.

~~~
TheSOB888
I am being judgmental - I'm suggesting he is wrong. It's just that in this
case, he is judging a lot of others harshly, and I'm judging him for that.

We at HN are probably not the most emotionally connected anyways, so there's
going to be a huge gap between the average HN experience/opinion on this topic
vs. the general population.

~~~
Zancarius
> We at HN are probably not the most emotionally connected anyways, so there's
> going to be a huge gap between the average HN experience/opinion on this
> topic vs. the general population

This is probably quite true, particularly for those of us who are of the INTx
MBTIs.

That said, my sarcasm was an attempt to illustrate the silly nature of this
entire debate. Although I do agree with the OP (insofar as I can't help myself
from feeling lax capitalization and punctuation is lazy), I also can't help
but feel that getting worked up over punctuation is rather stupid.

We're probably in agreement to that end, though.

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waterlesscloud
Huh. First I've heard of that idea. I wonder if it's generational?

Looking at my texts, I seem to use it or not more or less at random.

I did notice a while back that I tend to be more careful with capitalization
and punctuation the more invested I am with the conversation. It's a pretty
good predictor for me, actually.

~~~
vezzy-fnord
I randomly alternate between it as well and had no idea about this either,
despite being a member of Generation Z. Though an article on the same topic
was posted previously on HN.

That's probably because I don't ever write text messages. All of my
communication that involves typing goes on in IRC, Skype groups and news
sites/message boards.

------
doktrin
This rings true to me (social circle : early 20's - early 30's).

Related : my (ex) girlfriend once noted that "k" \- as opposed to "kk" \- was
a sign of mild annoyance or anger. Turns out I was actually annoyed when I
used it, but hadn't even thought about it consciously until then.

~~~
smacktoward
I used to have a boss who did this in actual speech. He hated talking to
people, and when you were talking to him, you could tell how badly he wanted
you to shut up by how many times he'd say "cool." As in, "cool" wasn't too
bad, "cool cool" meant mild annoyance, and "cool cool cool" meant "FOR THE
LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE RIGHT NOW."

He'd usually escalate through these stages the longer you talked. "Cool."
"Cool cool." "Cool cool cool." "That's all I've got, boss!"

------
sjcsjc
Remarkable, but true, apparently. I picked up my 13 year old daughter from the
gym the other day and she asked "Dad, are you cross with me?", which I wasn't
at all. It turned out that I'd put a full stop at the end of my text message
to her agreeing to pick her up.

~~~
elwell
13 year olds use the word 'cross'?

~~~
sjcsjc
Yep. Mine does, anyway. From near London, UK.

------
TheSOB888
Reminds me of something I noticed in comics - you never put a period at the
end of a speech bubble, but you can (and must, if applicable) put a question
mark or an exclamation mark there. But there are times in Calvin & Hobbes
where a few sentences fit into the bubble, and they have periods between them,
but still never at the end.

It just belies the true purpose of periods: to separate two different
sentences. So yes, it must mean something if it's there when it doesn't _need_
to be.

~~~
sjf
Exactly, in IM newline is a substitute for the full stop.

------
Kronopath
I almost always use full grammar and punctuation, even in texts, and often in
IMs. I'm weird like that. I hope I'm not coming across as angry or stern
without realizing it.

~~~
jerf
My text speak disappeared the moment I got Swype, and typing full words was
hardly any harder than the abbreviations. Perhaps not using text speak is a
sign of age, but it may also just be a momentary input-device anomaly too.

~~~
moheeb
Right! I think in the future certain folks will be speaking pidgin txt while
the rest of us that can afford the nicer phones or keyboards will use real
words.

------
drcube
This is not even close to true among my peer group -- 20- and 30-something,
middle class, educated Midwesterners. Nor is it true on any of the message
boards I frequent online. So this may be an interesting anthropological datum
about some segment of the population (teenagers? the poor? uneducated? the
author and his wife?), but it doesn't generalize.

Punctuation is important, and sufficiently literate people recognize that.
Since our society is getting _more_ literate (or at least compared to a
hundred years ago, not sure if literacy has been improving lately), I imagine
this phenomenon is getting less likely, not more.

~~~
mrjatx
I'm at the end (29) of your group and most of us (my personal peers) very
rarely use punctuation in informal conversations (AIM, irc, hipchat).

Assuming it's a literacy issue is a bit offensive.

My formal email/hackernews/reddit etiquette has absolutely nothing to do with
my informal etiquette. I'd wager most of my personal story is based on growing
up surrounded by IRC in elementary school. There are points where I have to
rail in my "stream of consciousness" style of type during informal
discussions.

~~~
drcube
I wasn't trying to offend. In my experience, the kids who didn't read enough
tended to think proper spelling, capitalization and punctuation weren't
important, even in the days before texting and IMs. As they grew up and began
to use the English language in a less superficial fashion, they started to see
the importance of writing properly.

I've seen multiple friends go through this phase, at different points in their
lives. One (a disabled guy who doesn't work -- he's a great friend though, I
hate calling him out), still refuses to spell, capitalize, or punctuate.
Everything he writes is just an unformatted list of misspelled words. Not
coincidentally, this is the only friend who doesn't read for work or pleasure.
All he reads is facebook statuses and the weather channel.

Maybe I'm being uncharitable, but in my experience, people start out thinking
punctuation and spelling are matters of formality, eschewing it as the concern
of old folks and authority figures, but eventually come to realize it is about
_readability_. But maybe there's a social signalling that I'm unfamiliar with:

this note is short and readability isnt a concern as much as signalling im not
a stuffy outsider

While this note (and the rest of this post) is something I want you to
consider, and therefore the utmost importance is legibility, readability and
clarity.

~~~
mrjatx
You're bringing up spelling errors and things that have absolutely nothing to
do with the argument that the article author presented. They don't mention
improper spelling at all. They don't mention education or lack thereof.

They're specifically talking about whether or not "personality" should be
shown through a message, and if it is or isn't, how it can be misconstrued. As
in, to some people (contrary to your experience) seeing a full stop indicates
formality, or anger, and to some people not using capitalization and not using
punctuation infers a lack of professionalism.

~~~
drcube
Periods are not optional in readable English. Period. The rest, spelling,
capitalization, are all there for the same reason -- readability.

Seeing an unpunctuated piece of writing doesn't make me think "Gee, good thing
they're not mad at me", it makes me think "Gee, they didn't care enough to
make this readable". Which, for some circumstances, is probably fine. I
apologize for the "uneducated" remark. You just write differently (albeit only
in certain informal contexts apparently) than any literate person I know.

The rest of the punctuation-emotion the short article described predates the
internet and texting, like using question marks if you're unsure (I turn left
here?), or exclamation points for emphasis (Yes!!). What I'm disputing is the
"don't bother using a period if you're not angry" phenomenon. It's not my
experience that literate adults do this. You and the article disagree. Fair
enough. Learn something new everyday.

------
wprl
How can I get a job making up stuff like this? Or is the author just self-
deluded?

------
pessimizer
I think the dropped punctuation isn't due to semi-literate people, but is due
to pressure from them.

As a _complete-sentence /full-punctuation_ texter who has been known to text a
semicolon, I've noticed that most sloppy texters conform to my posture after
about three texts, because they can tell that I'm not going to loosen up and
drop punctuation and spelling, and they probably fear they'll be judged badly.
The only people I know that don't adjust are the people that I know actually
don't know how to spell or use punctuation well.

When the _flexible_ adjusting texters text the semi-literate texters - if they
start in a _complete /full_ posture, I bet they adjust towards sloppiness (as
I sometimes feel a pressure to in that situation) in order not to appear
stuck-up or judgmental. Also, the first text is often a greeting, and formal
greetings are not really a thing (at least in the US) anymore, so there's
actually more leeway to start a conversation sloppily. Especially when it's a
probe to see if someone is available ("hey"), rather than a fully formed idea.
"Hey." seems a lot weirder in that context than "hey", because the word 'hey'
isn't a sentence.

The pressure to not seem stuck up or mean might simply be more dominant
amongst _flexible_ texters than the fear of being judged. I think that says
something nice about people.

------
shenoybr
I mostly use the dot randomly and it doesn't mean anything. Although, I'll use
ALL CAPS if I want to drive a point through. Interesting though that a dot can
have so much meaning.

------
kolektiv
Seems rather generational and perhaps somewhat geographical as well. Perhaps
more prevalent in the US? I'm not sure how this would even reliably work -
you're rather relying on automatic wrapping never looking like a line break,
etc. Peculiar, for sure.

It would probably be a little interesting to do a study on changes in
grammar/punctuational usage based on keystroke requirements. Having to flip to
a different onscreen keyboard mode for a character would, I imagine, lessen
the attraction of characters that needed that. Same with capitalisation,
obviously, which I always assumed to be the driver behind all lower-case SMS
messages in general. A full stop doesn't seem like it would be a candidate
though, except line break = 1 char, full stop + space = 2...

Edit: Extra thought. If that was actually true, and it's changing people's
_style_ of communication, does that essentially act as a kind of Sapir-Whorf
hypothesis for group communications when this is in effect?

------
jackmaney
I've never heard of such a convention. With the exception of the occasional
error or typo, I use correct grammar and punctuation in all of my text
messages.

------
acjohnson55
Situationally, it _could_ be angry, but there are other reasons to end your
sentences with a period. I think the real problem is that the short-text
medium makes it hard to accurately convey emotion in the same way that tone
and body language do, and so things like periods, emoticons, interjections,
exclamation points, and phrasing have to carry that load.

------
wildpeaks
I don't know if it's generational (being 32 here), but fullstops _in realtime
conversations_ (email is different) always seemed used to highlight annoyance
or mild anger indeed (perhaps because it emphasizes that you want to end
conversation).

It's similar to replying "k" (or a single word) to someone who sends you a
full sentence.

~~~
wildpeaks
One small caveat: I was referring to single-sentence messages. Full stops with
multiple sentences just fine, but you then enter "wall of text" territory.

------
incision
I see this, along with the many meanings of "lol" [0] from people who are just
a few years younger than I am (34), but very rarely from anyone my age or
older.

0:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoF2vdLxsVQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoF2vdLxsVQ)

------
baddox
I do a significant portion of my communication over IM and SMS, but I have
literally never considered or even heard that periods mean anything specific
like this.

------
skittles
My kids have mentioned how adults always end messages (especially facebook
postings) with "...". I wonder how that started?

------
seancoleman
This article leads me to believe most of my friends likely think I'm an
asshole (if they subscribe to this way of thinking).

------
hosh
I'm old-fashioned. I'll keep writing in complete sentences on my instant
messages unless I am making a mistake.

------
bowlofpetunias
That is a very long article to describe the obvious difference between writing
and text-based chatting.

This is nothing new, it's been that way since the days of IRC, and probably
other channels before that.

If the author were to discuss this subject with another human being in casual
conversation he wouldn't do it in the exact form of this article.

There's no fundamental change happening here, just using language in a
different way in different context.

~~~
pessimizer
There's no obvious difference.

------
mcculley
I was immediately annoyed when reading the first caption, which confuses
"roll" with "role".

------
Navarr
Its such mallarky that comments are already closed on the article.

