
Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore? - throwjuly2018
with all the website builders that are available, is there any money in doing web design for small businesses?
I had a prospective customer whom I was offering website design and maintenance service. He ended up  doing it all by himself using an online website builder. I suddenly felt like I don&#x27;t have anything to offer that business. I feel so discouraged. I&#x27;m a decent programmer but it seems everything small businesses need is already built and is way polished that I could build. What should I do?
======
jason_pomerleau
There is lots of opportunity out there, but it depends on what you mean by
‘small business’. Super small companies (under 10 to 15 people in this
context) are usually best off with SquareSpace or Wix. Companies slightly
larger than this invariably end up wanting/needing things that these platforms
can’t offer, and have the kind of budgets that can support a solo operator or
small team.

At this level, you are competing with advertising agencies and marketing
firms. Or you can turn those ad agencies into your clients - many don’t do the
kinds of volume to support an in-house team.

I did well over 200k last year building, fixing and maintaining WordPress
websites, working from home in a region with a relatively low cost of living.
I expect to do even better this year, though I have resisted the urge to grow
via hiring - I prefer to pick and choose my projects and be exclusive. My
clients are a mix of agencies and “mid-size businesses”. I turned away another
50k of opportunities that didn’t feel like a good fit.

Beware though: success depends on more than just being able to build nice
websites. You have to know how to sell yourself, manage customer expectations
and a whole slew of soft skills to position yourself as a trusted advisor and
expert. You need to understand your customers business, their challenges and
pain points, how their customers think and behave, etc. Etc.

~~~
gremlinsinc
Whats your hourly?

I'm more laravel/mobile/node/vue/react, and I find I under-charge, but I think
if I were doing WP I'd need to charge even less... Currently my best-long-term
client pays $40...but I feel I want/deserve 60-70 and trying to land that for
my next couple clients... do people pay you more than $40/hr for wordpress or
do you just charge per project?

~~~
goatherders
You are grossly under charging. The first advice I give any dev is to up your
rates by 25%. Period. You will not lose any clients. I promise. But $40 an
hour for those skills is nuts. In the US WordPress providers typically charge
$80 and I tell all of them - ALL - that they should be at at least $100/hour.

~~~
MrBra
So how much will a finished WordPress website end up costing? Just considering
20 hours will make the website cost $2000, and after that work the client will
usually ask for other features and little touches here and there. Are you sure
that this is what you can ask for a smallish WordPress website? I've read many
times that this segment is usually called the "$500 WordPress website"
segment... I think that when you start going over $2000 people start expecting
a custom built website with completely customizable
design/structure/graphics... at least this is my impression regarding website
market in Europe. Does anyone feel the same about it?

~~~
goatherders
There is a market that will pay 500 that I would stay away from unless you can
also get ongoing revenue as well (hosting, support/updates, content creation,
etc). There is also an segment that already knows "a few thousand" is the
starting cost of a quality site.

------
avitzurel
Here are my thoughts:

I am far from my days of "building websites", but I built one as a favor for a
friend just this week (simple contact form, single page). I was talking to him
over the phone about his previous website, how it was built, who built it,
etc...

I think there is A LOT of money to be made with building websites for small
businesses.

Yes, the challenge is not technical, and yes, we (from an engineering point of
view) think it's a commodity and that Wix and the likes are solving all the
problems, that's wrong!

Let's start from the bottom, if you have real sales, that talk to small
business and take care of their online presence, you will get a lot of
business.

Forget about the CMS, forget about the self-serve, you act as the technical
person and take care of:

1\. Yelp Page 2\. Facebook Page 3\. Instagram Page 4\. Website 5\. Content
writing

You can get a ton of business with targeting the right business types and
pricing it right.

You have to figure out the problem you are solving. forget SEO and forget
everything that we as engineers think about, think about the value you are
adding to a small business.

If you tell a busy business owner that he can text you the updates they want,
or you call them once a week and get a few new photos that you will update in
the right places and get them more business, you will thrive.

If you develop a high-touch business in a market where everybody thinks they
will win with a low-touch 5$ a month market, you can win.

My friend paid 3K$ for his previous website.

~~~
goatherders
This is an excellent post and should get some love. 60% of small businesses
don't have a web presence at all and 90% have only ONE of website, FB, and
Yelp. Offering to handle all of this stuff and then wrapping in
Proofer/AdviceLocal/Yext and twice-monthly blogging is a nice business to be
in. PRetty common to get $3-5k site builds and $500-1000 a month to manage and
maintain the other stuff.

~~~
avitzurel
You don't give a CMS, you talk to them where they are, on the phone, WhatsApp,
anything. You give them customer service where customer service is completely
dead.

~~~
avitzurel
Another thing, don't expect to create a website (for yourself) and have
customers come to you. Not even with Google of FB ads. Go you them!

This is a cold-calling, customer facing, convincing business. It's ads in
local papers, flyers and talking to people.

------
michaelwda
I think web-design in the SMB market is completely commoditized between
website builders and even CSS toolkits like Bootstrap lowering the barrier to
entry. I barely know CSS and will just buy a $20 design from wrapbootstrap and
the client doesn't care.

Anything related to web-design should be a side-effect of the true product
you're selling, which in your case should be web-based software application
development (IMO).

My opinion:

#1) Get really good at a web-framework. Doesn't matter which, but something
like laravel would be a great choice. Learn MySql/MSSQL to go with it.

#2) Market yourself as a specialized consultant and bill $100 hr+. I don't
know what market you're in, but if this is a big leap for you then work up to
it. The kind of clients you want to work with will pay this without blinking.
Sometimes they won't even know about the bill because it goes straight to AP.
blah blah blah patio11.

#3) Never say you do web-design. Say, 'I convert your MS Access application
that runs a critical component of your business (barely) into a multi-
user/role, always-online, accessible-from-home web-application. Along the way
we're also going to streamline this to make your company more money. It will
pay for itself. That will be $30k.'

~~~
lowercased
> The kind of clients you want to work with will pay this without blinking.
> Sometimes they won't even know about the bill because it goes straight to
> AP.

I agree #3, but on #2 - I've _never_ dealt with any business of individual who
operated like a blank check ("just send the bill to AP"). They all have
budgets - implicit or explicit - and all want a rough idea of range at the
very least. Is this a $3k project or a $20k project? They all have a need to
know up front. You can sometimes tell up front - you get better at it - when
people are going to complain about it more.

Told someone on a project they were looking "in the $2k range, at $x/hr". Sent
a bill for $2200, and they flipped out. "You said it was $2000!"). Well.. no,
I emailed you that it would be roughly in the $2k _range_ , and if it was
going to go much outside that, I'd let you know beforehand. I got you your
project done 3 days ahead of when you wanted as well... blah blah blah.

Written agreements up front with clear expectations, etc.

More to the point on money, working with people where the money is coming
_directly_ out of their pocket (vs an operating business where there's a
budget, and the person you're dealing with is simply managing a budget) will
take you much further. IME, most of the people you work with where the money
is directly from their pocket will watch every nickel and take $9 of time to
explain a $2 expense.

This isn't to say you should pad billing or rip people off by any means,
but... taking hours to explain how web hosting works, and that no, we can't
build a custom ERP system on your godaddy account that you prepaid for 4 years
in advance last week when you bought your domain name, and that if this really
is a "million dollar idea", you will need to spend more than $200 for an MVP.
All of that is low-value stuff you want to figure out how to avoid.

~~~
hiteho
> taking hours to explain how web hosting works, and that no, we can build a
> custom ERP system on your godaddy account that you prepaid for 4 years in
> advance last week when you bought your domain name, and that if this really
> is a "million dollar idea", you will need to spend more than $200 for an
> MVP.

You joke, but I was in this exact position on Wednesday. It's natural to think
that web consulting is dying or that there's a race to the bottom on pricing,
until you come face-to-face with the level of ignorance many business owners
(even successful ones!) have about technology. The world of business software
is mysterious to many people. And while it's easier than ever to build a
solution that replaces clunky .xls files or (worse) paper -- that can still be
a major hurdle for someone not familiar with it.

I think the solution to OP's question is to see yourself as not just a
developer but also a tour guide. Educate your customers without judgement.
Teach them why what you do matters (translation: market to them!) Lots of
people won't see the value and will never pay $100+/hour. But some of their
competition will. And that's how you build a consultancy of your own.

~~~
lowercased
Well... I don't joke :) The $200/MVP is a slight exaggeration, but not much.
I've been approached by people about MVP, but they only focus on the M, not
the V or P.

------
adamqureshi
Ad agencies here in NYC sub-contract out work all the time. They are sick of
outsourcing to 3rd world. I'd connect with ad agencies in your area see if you
can get sub-contract work. And you can charge $1,500-$3k to set up a
SquareSpace site. Target dentist, interior designers, yoga studios. Forget the
local pizza shop as a customer. If your building with WP then offer support.
WP is being updated all the time and with so many plug-ins, who can keep track
of that? not the small business owner. Offer monthly support. Just don't offer
TXT messaging support , they'll never leave you alone. Bill for your time.
Goto your local meet ups and present yourself as an expert. You help grow the
small business. If its a restaurant help them with optimizing their yelp
listing or bad reviews. What delivery company to use. You need to help with
small business's market online with the goal of helping them get more
customers and less bad reviews. Help with setting them up with a google
business page and reviews, same with FB... a website is only the beginning.
Have a goal to have lets say 20 customers who pay you $250/month = $5k. There
is mad money out there you just need to up your game and adapt to the needs of
the business. They need to make more money get more customers get more
positive reviews and less bad reviews. You charge for a small discovery phase
like your a doctor diagnosing a business problem , then layout it out for
them. Good lucky!

~~~
notahacker
> Forget the local pizza shop as a customer

The local pizza shop's potentially a good customer if you're selling them _a
way to take orders online and get people to buy their special offers and refer
their friends through social media_. Plenty of value in that, especially if
you're yielding more proven results than those flyers they pay to have printed
and delivered every couple of months. If you're selling them a homepage with a
picture of a pizza and a phone number then yeah, that's what Wix etc are for.

~~~
yoava
Actually, you can do a lot more with Wix Code, and make a site with all kind
of custom functionality, including 'a way to take orders online and get people
to buy their special offers and refer their friends through social media'.

But to use Wix Code, you will need to know some level of coding, hence value
to sell for your clients.

And I agree, there is a huge market for people to build websites for
customers, you need to focus on the value you deliver to your customers, from
design all the way to coding, SEO, content and social.

~~~
adamqureshi
You can do that but the pizza guy may not know how to manage it. So the game
has changed from making a static site to making a site and then figuring out
how to make the pizza guy more money , get him more customers. Google business
page optimization just basic stuff and then yelp listing. Just make sure the
address is correct and no spelling errors. You put him on a subscription and
meet him once a month to go over value , you become his digital media expert.
You then ask him to promote you to his customers. I get free pizza , pasta
from the pizza guy. Just for talking about this stuff with him. You can charge
for it.

------
jdietrich
There's a fundamental question to ask - _am I adding value_?

If you're a low-skilled web developer who can knock together a reasonable
website using something like Wordpress, you probably aren't offering a service
that is usefully better than Squarespace or Wix. You might still pick up some
work from businesses that just can't be bothered to do it themselves, but
you'll be continually squeezed on your rates.

If you understand online marketing and can help businesses increase their
sales, you're in a good position. Some small businesses just want a pretty
website or a cool app for the sake of vanity, but most would prefer to make
more money. If you know a reasonable amount about UX and SEO and direct
marketing, you can justify a decent daily rate.

Basic stuff like "you haven't updated the menu on your website since 2015" or
"Google Maps is directing people to the wrong side of your building" can make
a meaningful difference to someone's bottom line. I've spoken to a lot of
small business owners who were surprised to learn that an email newsletter
subscriber is usually several orders of magnitude more valuable than a Twitter
follower. It's not rocket science, but it's worth paying for. Squarespace can
commoditise the technical function of web design, but they can't commoditise
marketing consultancy.

~~~
hiteho
Right. A common thought among small business owners is "I should have a
website because everyone else does." The details like content freshness,
design aesthetic, or site speed don't even matter. So long as my-business-
name.com goes somewhere familiar. But this line of thinking escapes the
opportunity to drive business over the web.

In my experience, there's plenty of money for the consultant who teaches a
business how to stop settling for their website as a commodity and start
seeing it as an extension of their "brand".

------
CareyB
I’ve been at this since the ninteies. At the peak I was getting $2500 for a
ten page Drupal site I could do over the weekend. These days you can get a
‘custom’ programmed site from a guy reselling the services of an Asian
programming group for $100, so how are you supposed to compete? I have made
some money ‘fixing’ those sites, but for the most part my business is dead
agaist things like Wix (Ugh), or Goddady Site Builder. I still make money
extending those sites when the business wants to do more with their Web
presence than the basics, but essntially there doesn’t seem to be any way to
convince the more frugal clients to spend ten times what the site builder guys
charge. I have had some success selling functionality. I offer a basic, ten
page Drupal site, with additional charges for added functionality, but you’ll
never be able to charge more for adding pages. I will even advise a prospect
to go with those services to start with, just so I can be a good guy, and have
them remember me when they need more.

Someone once gave me the advice to never offer a discount. You can do things
for free, but never discount anything. If you do, you’ll end up discounting
everything.

~~~
ryandoom
Yikes, doing this since the 90s and your top price is 2500k?! You are focusing
on the wrong opportunities and I bet you lose a lot of opportunities and you
don’t know why.

If you pitch a 2500k website to a 20+ person business there is 0 perceived
value in that. That’s one persons time in their org for 2 weeks.

What’s the value you are bringing? Decades of experience, marketing
experience, conversion optimization, inbound marketing strategies, CRM
integration...

If that business is - say a law firm for 20 attorneys.

A sale to them is 10K+ for a new legal gig.

If your website can outperform others and you bring them 5 more leads a month,
50+ more leads a year ... 10+ more sales then you can charge much more!

You are losing jobs to companies charging for the real value they bring.

Let those small one to two person companies use wix or whatever

And if that’s the only value you bring then you need to learn different skills

Companies WANT to pay good money for good services. They are probably laughing
at your 2500 quote and going with the 25,000 quote.

Move of the value chain. They get a new website but that’s not what you’re
selling.

You’re selling leads, sales, new business, business growth, hands off / zero
worries on their part.

Start charging way more today.

~~~
branweb
1\. maybe not your intention, but this reads as quite rude

2\. you mean 2.5k not 2500k. The latter would be a king's ransom for a
wordpress site, even by your (apparently) high standards

~~~
Aeolun
Reads more like ‘tough love’ to me. It’s harsh, but definitely well
intentioned.

------
elorant
There are two questions that need to be addressed here. One, whether the web
design business model can be sustainable in the long run, and secondly what a
freelance developer can do.

The problem with the web design business is that a big percentage of the job
that needs to be done is ad hoc which makes it unaffordable in the long term.
There are too many hidden costs in communication and negotiations not to
mention that nine out of 10 times the client isn't exactly sure what he wants.
This is why most shops try to build their own CMS so they can commoditize the
building process and start charging for software licensing instead of design.

So what could you do as a solo developer? My advice is twofold. Either try and
build a service and not just building websites (for example a Facebook
scheduler), or enhance your skill set with some consulting. Don't just build
websites, build experiences. Make the client feel like you're the guy to help
him take advantage of the whole "Internet" thing. That may include social
media moderation and whatnot.

Another very lucrative niche is building themes for WordPress sites. You build
a very good theme for various devices and you charge a fee which includes
support and updates. There are people out there who are killing it with this
model (I know a guy who makes €12k/monthly from building themes). Of course it
requires good design skills but perhaps you could team-up with a designer.

My two cents.

~~~
zzzcpan
> Another very lucrative niche is building themes for WordPress sites.

I guess barrier of entry is a bit higher into themes requiring software
development, graphic design and even a bit of UX expertise. So there is less
competition. You would still be competing globally though.

------
muzani
Generally, you don't want to compete with Squarespace, Wix, Wordpress, or
Shopify. Unless your goal is to just churn out those kind of sites within a
couple days. But even then, you'll probably lose out to some Indonesian who's
doing it fast, cheap, and high quality.

I've found a good niche making sites with minimal login and membership
features. These are far too customized for the likes of Wordpress, but can be
built in just jQuery and Bootstrap, without all the overhead of a full web
framework. Some examples would be sites that track individual members actions,
listing sites, websites that would track their employees' performance.

------
ryanmarsh
Sell an online course for $49 that helps small business owners create their
own site for their business, using no-code tools, thus saving them thousands
of dollars, hours of their time, and the potential embarrassment from doing it
wrong.

Start writing Medium articles dumping everything a small business owner should
know before creating their own site, about running their own site, about
hiring a consultant like yourself, about marketing themselves online, etc...

Record 2min YouTube videos summarizing each of your articles.

Put the videos and articles on your site with a CTA to buy your course.
Explain how, after they take your course, how their life/business will be
different and better.

Profit

------
anater
_with all the website builders that are available, is there any money in doing
web design for small businesses?_

If you’re willing to be the person configuring a website with one of these
builders, yes. As other commenters have mentioned, these builders only get
clients so far (pretty far in fact) but eventually they’ll need something
else. Being a web “guy” or “expert” to them is what you want.

Clients want a convenient solution to this problem. That’s why website
builders are so successful. Once they’re busy enough, they don’t want to think
about this at all and that’s what they’ll pay for. Be that person.

------
IAmGraydon
I am not a web developer by profession (I'm a marketing director and
entrepreneur), but I freelance 2-3 sites per year on the side. Most of these
sites are fairly simple sites for small businesses and organizations. I make
more money doing this (per hour) than most other freelancers I've met, and
it's because I offer what my clients can't get with Wix/Squarespace:
effective, high end design. I'm a decent web developer (most of you on here
would destroy me, but I do what I do well), but I'm a really good designer,
and I understand how to impart a site with a certain brand and professional
gloss due to my marketing and design background. Anyone can launch a website
these days, but not anyone can create a tool that changes perceptions and
increases conversions.

So you have to offer something more than just a website. You have to have a
portfolio that shows that you can create a site that puts their business/brand
above their competitors in the eyes of their customers. Most importantly, to
make this viable, you have to find clients that understand and appreciate the
importance and value of this and have the budget to spend on it. Forget
building sites for restaurants, mom and pops, and other cash-strapped
businesses. You have to build relationships with the companies who make big
money, and then give them a tool to make even more. Then the payment you're
asking become an investment, and investments are easier to stomach than costs.

~~~
namanyayg
Can I have a look at your portfolio?

~~~
acct1771
Would also be interested.

------
josefresco
Yes. I run a small, profitable web design and development business that serves
small business. Biz owners who choose Wix/Squarespace are the very bottom of
the market. We instead service those who have graduated beyond that level, who
need more advanced solutions, and more importantly someone to do the work for
them. We slot right in between DIY and a biz that has in house web team.

Hilarious to read some comments here from the "no" crowd - talk about out of
touch. Are all you guys holed up in San Fran/Boston disconnected from the
small business that actually powers America?

~~~
namanyayg
Are your clients local? Would you mind talking about the city you're located
in?

~~~
josefresco
95% are local, we live and operate about 1.75 hours from Boston.

~~~
namanyayg
I've recently got an opportunity to work with a trusted partner doing local
web design in a small Canadian city. Is there some way I can talk to you for
tips on how to market to & convert local clients?

------
jugg1es
All the comments here make me sad for my young children. I am now a lead dev
at a medium-sized company, but I had a side business doing web
design/development from age 14 to about 26. I never made big money, but when
you're 15, a $2k payday for a month's worth of learning experience is pretty
incredible. And a $15k project for a couple months of work in college buys a
lot of beer.

Based on the comments here, it sounds like that time is over for good :(

~~~
perlgeek
Maybe the time is over for web design, but there's always something new around
the corner that the kids have figured out, and the more conservative
businesses haven't.

------
no1youknowz
I would ditch website design and move into marketing.

Leads are what any business wants the most:

\- How to drive free traffic to sales funnels.

\- How to connect with a potential customers.

\- How to build the right audience for the product.

\- How to craft the sales message that resonates.

\- How to understand A/B/N metrics and speak in plain english to the business
owner.

I know of companies which do the entire process for big companies:-

1) Manage the ad spend for campaigns

2) Build the websites to convert, the sales funnels to sell

3) Some even offer the customer support for the website.

Some even charge a fee for the building of said materials and even a % of each
product sold.

I would be careful though. These systems for online businesses are becoming
better and better and some aren't just 1 products, but multiple products now.

Give it another 5-10 years and even what I'm talking about will be fully
automated!

~~~
namanyayg
How would you recommend a web developer to learn & pick up these skills? Any
books or courses?

~~~
hello_newman
If you’re looking for a course, Sam Ovens at consulting.com has a lot of good
stuff.

~~~
namanyayg
Looks interesting. Have you enrolled in any course in the past? Any other
resources you could recommend? Thanks!

------
tebbers
If you're a decent programmer, then use those strengths. As you say, web
designers are ten a penny now and there are even drag-and-drop website
builders like Squarespace and Wix.

You need to go upmarket in terms of delivering value and consequently charging
more for this extra value. Sit down with your prospective customer and learn
more about his business. What are his pain points? Where and when does he earn
most of his revenue, and from what type of clients? Can some of his processes
be automated to save him money and bring in more revenue? That's where I think
your focus should be.

------
CM30
Well, all the agencies I worked with in the past are still in business, and
hundreds of such companies come up in Google when I search for 'web design
agency in [place name]', so there definitely must still be at least some money
in it.

Either way, I think there's definitely still interest there. Yes, you can make
some types of basic sites through stuff like SquareSpace and Wix. But a lot of
business owners don't want to do things themselves. They're not design like,
often not too tech savvy and just don't feel being the one responsible for
their entire website.

For them, they'll go to an agency or development company for the same reason
you may go to a restaurant or cafe; because they'd rather someone who knows
more about the topic build in than play designer/developer themself.

They also often like having support in a place that's easier to reach. If the
company who built the site is local, they can phone them, send an email
without worrying about time zones or pop down the office when something breaks
rather than having to deal with a multinational corporation via support
tickets or live chat.

There's also (as said) the many types of sites that are a bit too complex than
can be done via a site builder but too simple to require an in house
development team; those are often things these small web design/dev businesses
take care of too.

So yeah, overall the market is certainly a bit smaller than it used to be, but
it's still there, either because people want a professional to do the job
rather than doing it themselves or because their needs are a bit more complex
than can be achieved with a site builder.

------
iamben
Yep. Understand conversion. Figure out what the business needs the website for
and how you can deliver that. 90% of templates cover the generic business
needs. Make your money by explaining the difference between warm and cold
leads, how 98% of the website traffic will be warm leads (unless they are
blogging/content generating all the time, which they probably aren't if
Squarespace etc is an option) and how creating a set of specific lead pages
can be used with AdWords etc etc., which could be built in to your offering.

I don't know how relevant "field of dreams" is for a bunch of people here, but
"if you build it they will come" absolutely does not apply to the web anymore.
Explain that to your client, explain that a Squarespace site or WordPress
template relies on pretty much that - and you'll make something that they can
a tally generate leads from.

Of course, if it's just brochureware you'll need to tailor this a little
better - "what are they looking for, should this be all on the homepage? Do we
need lead gen pages?" etc - this is the custom solution.

------
nickjj
Yes, but you need to shift your focus to using those platforms (when it makes
sense) and also look into adding value in other places of their business.

For example if someone wants a store set up, you probably don't want to ask
them to pony up for a custom $20,000 solution. Just get them onboard with
Shopify on a retainer, and if they have custom needs start programming custom
Shopify apps.

You can also look into ways on how to optimize their current set up. Like
introducing a way to schedule appointments in a way that removes a bunch of
headache from their point of view. They might not even have thought to do
anything like that because it was unknown to them.

I talked about this recently in a podcast I was on about being a freelance web
developer at
[https://twitter.com/nickjanetakis/status/1086296676640456704](https://twitter.com/nickjanetakis/status/1086296676640456704).

But, long story short. Before you know it, you're not just "the web guy" to
them. You're the guy they come to for answers for a lot of things related to
their business.

------
tbone2084
I wanted to see what other people thought about this. My experience is that in
web dev, it's better to keep your hourly rate lower, just bill more hours.
People will LOVE a 100 hour contract at $30/hr, but would freak out if an
estimate was 25 hours @ $120/hr. Clients just can't seem to get past the
hourly rate, even if the total project cost is the same.

As you become more skilled and _significantly_ more productive, you'll find
you can't capture this value because the client can not get past the hourly
rate. And in their mind they can hire someone vastly cheaper who's 'almost as
good'. The reality, as we all know is that the dropoff from a skilled dev is
quite large.

I've found that overbilling hours at a lower rate results in happy, happy
customers who get a quality product at a lower perceived cost. In the end
their project is successful and they feel like they paid a fair price and I
get paid what I'm worth.

Dishonest? Immoral? Curious on other's thoughts..

~~~
mr_toad
Managers often have limits to what they can approve without going higher up
the chain. That can be hourly limits like $100p/h or bulk limits like $50k for
a project. And they’d rather spend time trying to argue you down than argue
with their CFO.

Like they say, never bother arguing with someone who can’t say ‘yes’. If you
need a yes, you need to start talking to someone higher up.

------
tjwds
I work at an eCommerce firm with a design/dev arm. It's absolutely integral
for us to be able to provide the full package for clients for a number of
reasons.

Sure, straight-up "let me build your website" style sales may be an industry
that's slowing down, but it certainly isn't for online sales or integrating
any other services, so ymmv.

~~~
magic_beans
Just like OP, I build small sites for clients. I'm looking to stay relevant by
getting into eCommerce. I've been building Shopify stores and apps in my spare
time. What software does eCommerce generally use?

Do you think eCommerce dev jobs will still exist 10 years from now?

Thanks for any advice!

------
projektfu
As a small business owner who has paid for web design, yes I think you can
make money at it. I was looking for some help developing a unique look and I
found it and paid for it. I looked for someone who focused on the art, and we
used SquareSpace to implement the site. This has worked out well because SS
doesn't seem to go down and they have analytics baked in. I'm not beholden to
the designer for hosting like I have seen with other small business websites.

Other companies I've seen doing it have been focused on a vertical, telling
their customers that they'll solve all SEO problems and all that for a small
initial investment and a monthly fee. I haven't believed them yet so they
don't have my money.

------
yoava
Definitely.

(I am working for Wix)

Website design is not a uniform business. A lot depends on what your client
needs.

For simple needs, solutions such as our Wix ADI are a great self service tool.

When you want pixel perfect design, the Wix Editor is the tool for you. Most
people are able to use the Wix editor, but creating a great design is a
challenge, simply because not everyone have the training and talent of a
designer. We do see a lot of designers working on wix and making money that
way.

When you want more, Wix Code comes into play. With it, you get a serverless
platform and a database as a service, and you are able to code whatever
solutions you need for the customer.

While in theory your customer can do the coding and design, in practice they
are more then likely to hire a professional to do so for them.

~~~
yoava
You say your are a decent programmer. Take another look at Wix Code.

We see people looking to hire programmers to help them build websites using
the platform.

There is a demand for programmers among the Wix Experts community.

------
Chris_Newton
The way I think of it is that there are £50 sites and £5,000 sites (and
upwards) but there are no £500 sites any more.

If the requirement is a simple how-to-find-us page for a street corner
sandwich shop, there is no point in bringing in a professional web developer
in 2019. You can get a self-service site, with better appearance and automated
security updates, for a fraction of what it would cost just to have a hands-on
pro get out of bed, using any of the builder tools and an off-the-shelf
template.

When the requirements start to get significantly more demanding, then it’s
time to call in a pro. This can happen for all sorts of reasons, but there is
always _something_ that’s specific to that client’s needs and not available in
a cheap, off-the-shelf solution. It could be because a business really does
need completely bespoke layout/styling for its site. It could be because
there’s more interactive functionality that needs some custom UI work in front
of a database or other back-end system. It could be because aspects of the
site need to integrate with a client’s existing IT systems in some way. It
could be because the client really needs more than just a site and you’re
providing additional services as well as the site to support them.

Naturally any larger businesses with more complicated requirements will tend
to fall into the latter category, but you can also find smaller businesses
there, for example if they need a tailored interface for taking details of
orders or have some sort of scheduling element to their system.

------
juddlyon
The best business model I've seen to service small businesses is to become a
channel partners with Squarespace/Shopify/Wix/whoever, charge a fixed rate,
and then optimize the hell out of your process to increase your margins.

Here's a few off the top of my head:

Shopify: [https://ethercycle.com/](https://ethercycle.com/)

Squarespace: [https://knapsackcreative.com/](https://knapsackcreative.com/)

------
Endy
The first thing you should do is realize that not every "lost sale" is your
fault. There are some people in this world who won't be willing to pay you,
even if that ends up costing them more in the long run. As far as what you
have to offer that particular business, though? Does the online website
builder he used provide customer support that's better than yours? Does it
provide copy writing and editing for his basic pages and ongoing support for
his blog? How about the e-commerce side, what percentage are they taking (and
what would you be taking)? How much are they charging for the kind of long-
term support you're offering?

One other major place to focus: How long did it take him to build the site
himself? Was it free, aside from time?

Online builders are pretty slick nowadays, but I think that you're not fully
automated out of the market just yet. The problem is, you can't beat free for
some people. Even if a year down the road, five years down, they end up having
laid out more time and lost more money on their "free" website, there are
certain people in the world who'll always take the nominally free option.

------
davidscolgan
I started out my career building these sorts of websites, making $3000
Wordpress custom themes. The secret sauce was my lead source who had super
developed business sense and social skills, and went out and wined and dined
clients and sold them these sites. He went on to build an agency and I was the
first freelancer he hired. I'm pretty sure he was pitching wide reaching
marketing and strategy help to these clients, and a website was just one part
of that.

If a business just wants to make a simple website themselves, I see absolutely
no reason not to just use Squarespace or equivalent. I agree with others in
this thread that this kind of website has become completely commoditized when
taken in a vacuum.

I've done much better as a solo freelance software developer doing webapp
development - Django/Vue is my current stack of choice but any full stack can
work. The advantage this has over building design-heavy sites for small
businesses is that this kind of dev still has a long way to go before being
commoditized, and in general is worth north of $100/hr.

~~~
gremlinsinc
I'm pretty frustrated lately, I've got one client and looking to replace them
or at least fill my pipeline with higher paying ones and back burner the other
client unless we can renegotiate rates (current is $40/hr -- all parties live
in USA), I would kill for a $100/hr contract, but I have no clue how to
land/pitch one.

My primary stack: Laravel / Vue, though I've been playing with node
(Feathers/express backends) as well a lot lately. I've also been playing
around w/ react quite a bit. I think if I had $100/hr I could put more in the
bank... this feast/famine cycle is killing my sanity.

~~~
CosmicShadow
Dude, just don't charge hourly and don't do hourly work. Only charge by the
project. Estimate how long it would take, times by $100-$200/hour, then set
that as your fixed rate. Just make sure you estimate 2-3x the time you think
it would take just in case.

------
avar
Most of the value these websites were providing has been supplanted by various
other services.

I no longer need to scour through some crappy website for opening times etc.
because it's on Google Maps, even a photo of the menu on Google Maps is a much
better experience than any restaurant website I've ever visited.

If the site needs interaction with customers it's probably better off with
Facebook or WhatsApp.

~~~
intrasight
This. I used to do a lot of web site development. Certainly for larger
organizations there is still a need. But for small commercial or retail
concerns, there's little reason to not rely on social media for all of your
web marketing. It used to bother me when I found a company by Googling and
found that Google directed me to Facebook and there was not other web site. It
doesn't bother me any more - I get it.

------
gist
> Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

> I suddenly felt like I don't have anything to offer that business. I feel so
> discouraged. I'm a decent programmer

It's not about programming but about design and offering the customer a better
product than they can do themselves. Plus you have to have the type of clients
(or be able to sell them) on what you can do for them that is better than what
they can do themselves. Even if it's just making it simple and not requiring
them to think ('don't make me think'). I am sure in the comments here others
have said the exact same thing. This is no different than any other sale and
marketing. You are one person you aren't trying to fill the pipeline enough
for 20 programmers just yourself.

I compete in another area (not web design) which is similar. There are people
that do the same exact thing and practically give it away. If I can't get that
account either I am not selling or I've got the wrong prospect.

------
vpmpaul
In a word sorta, but if you are on HN you are probably overthinking it. A guy
I work with looks for bad small business sites on the side then he tries to
convince them to let him "redesign" the site. He then moves their site to WIX
and loads a default template that they like. He charges $3000 USD for this.
99% of the work is non technical.

~~~
throwjuly2018
how does he convince the business to spend money just to redesign it and how
big are his clients(10+ employees)? I was able to convince a client(3 person
company) that he should have a website, but he just did it himself. Now he
wants me to do seo and get more conversions which feels more like an art
rather than science to me.

~~~
hello_newman
SEO is definitely a science. The formula is authoritive content + number of
high quality backlinks = highly ranked site.

However, I do agree that there is a lot of bad information out there, but the
process of googles algorithm for ranking sites (page rank) is pretty straight
forward at the end of the day

------
reilly3000
What you shouldn't do: take advice from Sitepoint forums or pricing clues from
UpWork.

What you should do: leave your home, talk to strangers at a networking event,
and listen to their technical problems. Maybe 1 in 10 will have a problem
you'd like to work on solving, if you've gone to the right event. Ask for a
fair rate and overdeliver. Repeat.

------
throwjuly2018
OP here: Wow, did not expect so much response. I owe more details. Our
client(his mom rather) used godaddy website builder template which had payment
and appointment booking feature just for $15 a month(hosting extra). She did
this in a day. As few people pointed out maybe thats all what he needs right
now.

My skillset varies a lot. Although I'm confident taking on any technical
challenge from wordpress customization, mobile app, CRM integrations to
machine learning, I'm little behind on soft skills.

It seems business owners like talking to me about technical stuff(so do I),
but none of them are showing interest hiring us. As the top comment pointed
out maybe I should target businesses more than 10-15 people. But it's easier
to just walk into a mom & pop store than cold calling a firm with more than
10-15 people. I tried online(fb/linkedin) advertising, email marketing but
didn't get any customers through it.

------
Nerada
I've tried looking for contractors in the past who can make small changes to
static HTML landing pages.

I've since given up just learned to hack together changes myself as everyone
on the big web design markets ignores the original request for alteration and
instead spins up a $50 Wordpress theme they try and resell to me for $800.

------
goatherders
I run a business that does outreach for agencies and can attest to the fact
this there is still PLENTY of opportunity building sites for small business.
We were "throwing so many fish back in the water" that had too little
budget...but they had SOME budget so we spun out a business for that. I am a
terrible WordPress programmer and only a moderate designer but even I make
nice income from this division of our business. We build a 5 page brochure
site for $1500 then charge $100/month for security and hosting . It adds up
fast.

Soft skills are crucial, building a referral network is crucial.

~~~
ovx99
How important is doing all of this locally? Meeting clients face to face? I
assume businesses of this type would have to be totally readjusted for one
living in a very small low tech isolated American town?

~~~
goatherders
Negative. We sell into America, Canada and a lot of english speaking Europe

------
brundolf
I live in the Austin area and tried this for a bit. There are tons of decades-
old local businesses here, so I thought it'd be a treasure trove of jobs
building fresh ones. I got one solid gig with a local music shop who needed a
website with a CMS for maintaining an every-changing product inventory, but
that was all I could find. Everybody else was good with Squarespace, so I went
back to a desk job. I'm sure if I'd looked a little harder I could've found
some "medium businesses", but I'd expected the finding part to be easy, and it
wasn't.

~~~
Kinnard
How long did you spend looking?

------
fcurzel
Do not sell yourself as a technician, but as a web expert and a professional

------
mattzito
So I’ll tell you from my past experience that there are plenty of designers
that make money building websites _using_ platforms like squarespace.

The trick is that the designer adds additional polish and takes the full
service approach:

\- wiring up CRM platforms

\- mailing list management

\- SEO optimizations

And so on. In some cases these folks are more than comfortable working in
something like Wordpress or Jekyll, but they also want the site to be
maintainable by their customer and choose Squarespace instead.

But I would agree that the days of “make me a simple website” are long gone.
Now you have to be a full service shop.

------
snowwrestler
Of course; how many small businesses want to tinker with Squarespace or Wix
for hours? They are easier than Wordpress but far from turnkey.

Learn those platforms down cold and you will be able to build a site on them
way faster than almost any small business owner. And interacting with you will
be way faster for them. Combine those deltas and that’s your business.

Or, if you want to do more custom work, target bigger businesses, like
midsize. Or look into PR firms, which are constantly setting up new sites for
campaigns, coalitions, candidates, etc.

------
potta_coffee
It depends. I don't pursue the business but sometimes I end up taking a side-
job, I just made a website, took me about 5 hours and I made about a thousand
bucks. I did do a quickie logo design too. I didn't even really "build" the
site, I used a static site generator and a template and made some tweaks for
the client. The value to him is that he doesn't have to worry about any of the
details, even if I am using a template, something he could probably do.

------
mrhappyunhappy
I’ve positioned myself as a CRO consultant who does UX work. My projects span
from e-commerce to landing pages and apps. I never mention “web design”
anywhere and will turn down a 5k project pretty quickly if there is poor fit.
I think opportunities exist for those who position to offer solutions to
business problems. You must be able to say “no” many times to give one yes to
find the right client - this means having lots of leads which can be tough.

~~~
namanyayg
How can one reach the point of getting lots of leads?

------
interfacesketch
I hope it's OK to piggyback on this question and ask: are there any
opportunities in designing (and selling) website themes, particulalrly non-
Wordpress themes?

Many replies here say don't offer design. But presumably, even when you're
developing the backend, you need to reach for a front-end design or template -
either free or for sale. The market for HTML/CSS themes is completely
saturated though - is it fruitless to pursue this avenue?

------
tluyben2
It might depend on where you are; here (south EU) it works fine. I know many
one person companies making a nice living of making sites for restaurants,
real estate agents etc aka very small companies. They have no clue Wix exists
but they do not care anyway; they do not want to do it themselves. Even if it
is easy, most realize a site is not enough; it is a continues process and they
want to spend as little time as they can on it.

------
squirrelicus
You might consider partnering with web marketing services (the kinds that do
marketing sites and SEO). They might send you contracts for custom work.

You might also consider getting into web application development. There's a
lot of need still for small and medium businesses for custom portals that
manage their line of business.

------
paulcole
Yes. I work at a 15-person agency doing website design and SEO for small
businesses up from about 5 when I started there 4 years ago. We specialize in
a few verticals and have a few industries we won’t work with. We do wordpress
only and turn away plenty of clients who we don’t want to work with.

~~~
nandreev
Really curious about the state of agency SEO services these days. Do you guys
just do the standard on-page tweaks, or is there some backlink building too?

I once looked into the backlink profiles of a successful SEO agency's clients
and I discovered a makeshift PBN going on; they had 100s of sites ready to go
and would just add client links to them. In predictable patterns (# of
referrer pages would jump weekly etc.) Presumably this is fine because it's
working and this is how they promise position increases / page 1 for certain
kw etc.

~~~
paulcole
We don’t do the PBN thing. Honestly that’s pointless unless the sites have
enough authority to give the shared link any value and it takes years to build
up a useful network.

Honestly, our work isn’t really cutting edge or innovative. Optimize content
(we usually rewrite/redesign it all from scratch to hit both keywords and
user-experience), claim profiles, get a few good backlinks.

I think the biggest thing is simply to track results over 6+ months and react
to what you’re seeing. And looking for opportunities to continue creating good
long-tail content, which is admittedly a crapshoot sometimes. But by working
with a lot of similar companies, we kind of have a head start on what will
probably work.

------
soheil
I think there is money to be made still. If you focus on niche websites you
can definitely charge a premium. I know lawyers that pay 4-figure monthly
subscription fees for their websites in return for professional looking site
tailored for a law firm and some type of SEO guarantee.

------
mr_overalls
I see a lot of people using Wix and Wordpress for this purpose, presumably
because they've got so many ready-made components that can be "snapped"
together. Is there any other stack - Python, .NET, etc. - that works as well
for rapid web development like this?

------
ntchimy
I’m a small business owner, we have 2 take out restaurants and we use wix for
the design and go straight to our square store for people order pick up from
us. I know that there’re restaurants paying 20000$ for their website and apps
a few years ago!

------
a-saleh
There is some money in doing more custom things. I.e. a friend of mine earned
few thousand EUR by writing a website for a local conference, including
registration, e.t.c.

I think that for the really small businesses, your lunch will be eaten by i.e.
SquareSpace.

------
walshemj
Those website builders are terrible from a seo perspective WordPress can be
moved easily from one hosting provider to another and can be optimised for
search.

The sort of client that would be satisfied with wix is not the sort of client
you want to deal with.

------
wj
I wouldn't guess in mom and pop businesses but I would think in small
financial services, real estate firns, or other where the design might matter
more.

------
seibelj
I would assume the money is in the customization. Every business is unique and
the cookie cutter website builders get them 80% of the way but there is
usually something they really want that needs to be customized. All of the
players have plugin systems and raw editors to tweak as needed.

The website presence itself is commoditized. The processes that accelerate
business usually require customization, even if it’s using an off-the-shelf
product and then integrating, configuring, and training. You could even become
a sales channel and get a cut of the product revenue for making the sale.

~~~
whitehouse3
The other factor is website quality. When all the competition uses a
Squarespace or Wix site for their marketing pages, your site can stand out
using something like Gatsby JS to be ungodly fast. But this involves writing
the whole thing from scratch specific to the customer.

I’ve had very good success with this marketing pitch. Customers love to see
how their sites are faster and better looking than their dime-a-dozen
competitors.

~~~
subpixel
Clients don’t see nor will they pay for the difference between Squarespce fast
and Gatsby fast.

~~~
sokoloff
Exactly. 98+% of _their_ users won’t care and less than 25% are even likely to
notice.

------
wslh
I think you should move to designing UI/UX for web apps instead of relatively
static websites. There are a opportunities there and good pay.

------
keypress
I'm partially encouraged by this. It's great that a small business is in a
position to build their own site.

~~~
marpstar
Indeed this is a good thing not just for them, but for developers already
doing this. As small businesses opt for these build-your-own-website services
their competitors , particularly those who have little-to-no knowledge of
design/UX, may decide to up the ante and hire a developer.

I've launch ~25 custom-theme WordPress sites for clients over the past 6 years
and there has yet to be a shortage of clients who are willing to pay for
someone else to deal with it (and even maintain it long-term).

My most recent project, approved just last week, is exactly this: a client
with a SquareSpace website who needs to step-it-up as a result of the
increased local competition, so we're doing a full redesign and building on
WordPress.

------
rblion
There is always demand for well-designed things that last a long time. I never
run out of work or referrals.

------
virgilp
It's... complicated. I actually started a sort of "startup" (intrapreneurship/
startup within a corporation) to help designers make more money/ be more
successful [1]. So I talked to many people and studied what makes them
successful.

In my experience/ opinion, what sets a successful designer apart is...
marketing, and client management. I mean, they're not bad at their trade - you
have to be good enough; but the most appreciated ones were standing out to me
not because of their amazing graphical skills, or innovative ideas - but on
how structured they were in approaching the projects & the relationships with
their customers. E.g. some tricks that I've learned and seemed to work well:

\- get the client invested early: ask a token price to analyze the project -
weeds-out non-serious clients who have no intention to pay; then get them to
do some consistent "work" for you - e.g. one designer was asking
clients/business owners to fill in a consistent form with details about his
business, how he sees his clients, the market, the competition, what he does
well (better than competition) etc. By the time the client finished this,
(s)he was already invested both financially & with work/time, and actually
_wanted_ the designer to succeed. \- Pay attention to what the client says;
use the client's own words to justify design decisions/ present your work.
Makes the client feel you truly understand him \- NEVER, EVER surprise the
client. You don't want to proudly present you final work, hoping that he'll be
pleasantly surprised by your skills; that seldom ends up well. You want to
constantly keep him in touch with what you are doing, and ask him to make
(inconsequential) decisions along the way. That way, he "owns" the work too,
and you won't risk that he wants "just a small change" or to "try something
slightly different" in the end. \- Along the same lines as with previous
points - introduce "checkpoints" (with payments whenever possible) along the
way, where you get explicit "ok"/ "you're on the right track". Once humans
have agreed to something, it's psychologically hard for them to go back and
ask for something else.

I don't know, there were lots of "tips" like that, but the bottom line is that
you're a "small business owner" first, as a freelance; and only then you're a
designer. So what really really matters is to learn to work well with your
clients.

[1] The opportunity is real, I believe. I was afraid initially that people
won't be willing to share their process/ how they work/ what makes them
successful, but that turned out to be a complete non-issue. There's a sort of
pride in all of the successful people, they don't feel they are successful
because they know "a few secret tricks", and thus are in fact very open &
willing to share details of how they work. It's sort of a way to brag about
how good they are.

BUT - I got to a point where unfortunately I didn't have enough internal
support in the corporation, and to make the project successful I would've
needed to invest many nights & weekends of my own time, to build the MVP and
prove its success. And all that, while retaining exactly zero ownership of it
all - I would've basically worked for the hope of a bonus or promotion, and
with zero control - even if I was successful, at any point a senior manager
could've taken control of the project and taken it to a different direction
that I didn't want. I just decided the rewards were not worth the effort, and
gave up :(

------
chrsstrm
FWIW, you're talking about selling a product. Your complaint is that Big
Company makes a better product, so how do you compete on product sales? You
should adjust your thinking - stop selling a product and start selling
knowledge. In this particular case, it takes no special talent to make a
product so there's no distinction between your's, Big Company's, or anyone
else's product. Selling knowledge to your local businesses on how to better
use the product and achieve their specific goals is a service not everyone can
provide.

TLDR - sell your knowledge and treat the product as a complimentary add-on. If
you can help your customers improve their bottom line in a meaningful way, you
will always have clients.

------
ccnafr
No. Most people used Wix and Squarespace now.

~~~
yoava
While many people are using Wix and Squarespace, there is an active and large
community of Wix Experts (who are not working for Wix) that are building
websites for customers.

So I guess there is a place for a professional business for building websites

------
atemerev
Mind if I take a look at your portfolio?

~~~
namanyayg
Not OP, but am a full-stack web developer with 7y+ experience. Here's some of
my work [https://nmn.gl/](https://nmn.gl/).

------
ykevinator
I think a) no or b) at least not in America. You cant make a living earning
$100 a pop, which is what you're competing with.

------
z3t4
they still need someone to copy the text from the office doc into the website
builder ...

------
Domark
Is this a joke? Of course there are ways to run successful business nowadays
like Web Design. Here's an example:
[https://www.bluecompass.com](https://www.bluecompass.com)

Seriously, these types of "Ask HN" seem like trolling. How can people be this
ignorant? Is it lack of schooling? Lack of parenting?

------
point78
No

------
intrasight
If your a decent programmer, then "web development" is below you - I mean
marketing web site development like done in WIX or in Facebook. If you want to
write code, there's more interesting and lucrative work in the B2B
transactional and business intelligence work. Web sites built around APIs are
also interesting

------
JunaidBhai
I guess the underlying question here is will designers be able to add any
value to the marketing requirements of firms over and above what is readily
available and templatized... be it SMEs or large corporates, doesn't matter.

Refer to the literal meaning of standard and template, they originally are
meant to perform the same duties they have been assigned in the same manner.
On the contrast, any business who aims to succeed has to continuously
innovate..(do not confuse it with discovery), keep thinking differently, keep
changing strategies, keep upgrading themselves to be at par with this rapidly
changing environment and cut throat competition. And this is where creative
minds chip in.

Gone are those days when businesses use to write paragraphs after paragraphs
to explain their products and USPs. Today, just one right and well though word
is enough to put your point forth that directly hit the mind of consumers.

Design is deep. Mere creating graphics is not design. Decoding, understanding
and relating to the subconscious message behind a thought or a communication
being sent and being able to represent it in its most impactful form is true
designing.

The day a designer starts empathizing with this, he will not find himself in
doubt and out of work a single day.

I am a co-founder at [http://draftss.com](http://draftss.com) and we are
catering to all kinds of businesses from SMBs, Freelancers, Agencies and even
budding founders who require design and development. What differentiates is
the approach and brand placement.

