
Meshnet activists rebuilding the Internet from scratch - projectmeshnet
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21929294.500
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logn
Unfortunately this article requires paying money to read if you are not a
subscriber. I don't think there's anything wrong with me writing my own--
original--free ending to the free preview:

Those links mean that instead of communicating through Internet pipes run by
ISPs, that communication is completely free. Further, any peer can connect
with any other peer. So as peers join up, the network grows. Eventually if one
peer in this cluster also has an Internet connection, then the network also
does. Obviously bandwidth constraints limit infinitely sharing one ISP account
with an arbitrary number of people. However, if that peer has purchased space
within a data center, a cloud-hosted machine, then Internet access is
realistic for those currently without access. In effect it not only allows
nodes to connect, it allows any node to provide Internet.

So, the ultimate aim is not to replace the Internet. And it's not to piggy
back on the Internet. It's simply to let computers communicate freely.

And part of free communication, in every sense of the word, is that
communication must be encrypted. One node must be free to communicate directly
to another without others listening. The idea of free speech is not merely to
allow freely speaking to the public or a group, it's to allow individuals to
communicate amongst only each other, while at the same time not restricting
them from communication to a wider audience should they choose.

The way this security is implemented is through IPv6. Each IP is associated
with a public key and shared secret. It would be feasible to incorporate a
negotiated secret. But as part of the initial phase, the idea is to test the
core of the project: cjdns (on Github as
[https://github.com/cjdelisle/cjdns/](https://github.com/cjdelisle/cjdns/)).
This "invite" system, in effect, controls the spread of meshnet and limits the
possibility for abuse of the network, since each member of a meshnet must
share a secret to bring a new node in.

Plans are underway for rapid expansion of the meshnet. But careless growth is
not possible, due to the current nature as a circle of trust, and importantly,
the ability to de-peer malicious users.

This basic model of adding peers and sharing secrets is now being automated.
And I'd tell you their specific plans, but that's a secret. Pass it on.

~~~
hack37
What is the point of creating such network if it is for the benefit of just a
few ? If 1% of the population can have free speech, but the rest of them
don't, nothing will change...

~~~
astrobe_
More importantly, what's the point of building pipes if nothing flows through
them. I don't think there is a YouTube or a HN over there. One may imagine
that users may share files they have on their discs, or more generally serve
stuff, but then you depend on them being up and running (and reachable) 24/7.

~~~
johnchristopher
I can see that problem solved or attenuated if those meshes turn into some
kind of distributed networks like bitmessage or bittorrent where everyone has
duplicate pieces of a larger "file" thus ensuring almost 99% availability.
Data put in the network would be everywhere and maybe a distribution algorithm
could ensure that there's always a complete source on one node so the swarm
could be rebuilt if one node goes down.

Of course the bandwidth will be nothing like what ISP can offer.

What concerns me is how highly vulnerable to RF disruption some of those
projects relying on WiFi are. This is a serious problem if you are trying to
communicate vital information in a country where the government is hell-bent
on not letting citizens set up counter-revolt or grass-root movements because
it'll actually be very cheap to disturb those signals (I may be wrong but from
what I understand of WiFi freq. range it's easy to neutralize a network by
flooding it with interference).

edit: But maybe we don't need 24/7 availability for those kind of network
usage. Well-organized revolutionary and underground movements might not need a
youtube or facebook uptime.

~~~
DanBC
> What concerns me is how highly vulnerable to RF disruption some of those
> projects relying on WiFi are. This is a serious problem if you are trying to
> communicate vital information in a country where the government is hell-bent
> on not letting citizens set up counter-revolt or grass-root movements
> because it'll actually be very cheap to disturb those signals (I may be
> wrong but from what I understand of WiFi freq. range it's easy to neutralize
> a network by flooding it with interference).

Plenty of WIFI networks are sub-optimal because the people implementing them
don't know what they're doing with channels and power etc. I'm worried that
meshnet activism will attract many people who are keen but not clueful.

See also "IETF Attendees Re-Engineer Hotel WIFI"
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3771876](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3771876))
([https://www.networkworld.com/news/2012/032812-ietf-
makeover-...](https://www.networkworld.com/news/2012/032812-ietf-
makeover-257762.html))

I agree that it feels like jamming WIFI would be trivially easy for people
with even moderate skills and resources.

~~~
adestefan
It's pretty easy to pick up a 2.4GHz jammer on ebay or various other sites.

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marcuspovey
Yawn. Paywall.

But meshnets are a very interesting area of research. It can only be a good
thing to remove the main gatekeepers (ISPs) out of the equation.

I wonder if you could take advantage of the opening up of various whitespace
spectrums (thinking specifically in the UK, but I imagine this is happening
elsewhere in the world).

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morsch
Meshnets got a whole lot more interesting when suddenly everybody started
running around with a potential wifi node in their pocket.

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cLeEOGPw
Node to node communication may work fine when there's few locals connected to
each other. But if the project somehow would cover the whole world, wouldn't
latency with a faraway node come close to infinity? Besides, how would the
messages find it's way to a node, let's say 1000 nodes away from you? Natural
development would be that few nodes would become much larger than the others,
and those nodes would handle small nodes around it and communicate with other
large nodes far away, but then the large nodes would become like ISP's and
could be compromised by the government, effectively crippling the network. But
it could be that the node-to-node communication would only be used as a
fallback option for the information that is unable to pass through the bigger
possibly under control nodes... I guess I should take a look at it.

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marssaxman
I've met a bunch of the people involved in the Seattle Meshnet project, since
they have held meetings and set up a repeater station at ALTSpace, a
makerspace I'm involved with. They're an enthusiastic bunch; the project
hasn't hit critical mass yet but they are slogging away diligently.

I don't really understand what CJDNS does, and for the short term you can't
really participate in the meshnet without a pretty solid understanding of the
technologies involved, but I personally know quite a few people in central
Seattle who would be happy to host repeaters if the meshnet people can get a
turn-key installation package set up. I hope they'll reach that point soon.

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oleganza
Mesh would be much more stable and efficient when it's based not on voluntary
free-of-charge participation (like bittorrent, which does not work well for
not-very-popular items), but on economics. If everyone pays everyone in
Bitcoin for bandwidth and storage, the competition among computer enthusiasts
would create a robust working network with lowest prices possible without any
fancy algorithms to detect "leechers" and "seeders".

~~~
northwest
I agree, an economic incentive would certainly add value to the ecosystem and
allow it to grow faster.

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norswap
Could someone clarify what the purpose of a meshnet is? Only encryption of all
the contents? Or also hiding who talks to who? That last one seems quite
difficult to achieve to me, in the presence of an attacker that permeates the
network (the internet).

~~~
hansjorg
The main purpose is to have a network without depending on a central ISP.

A good example of a sizable meshnet is the Athens Wireless Metropolitan[1]
network which has more than a thousand backbone nodes.

1:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens_Wireless_Metropolitan_Ne...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens_Wireless_Metropolitan_Network)

~~~
norswap
Ah, I missed the point that this network would eschew the internet totally. I
now realize that the top comment and even the excerpt say exactly that.

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northwest
Remember when WiMax was being discussed? How come it still isn't being sold
yet? Could it be that it's because providers felt threatened?

I suppose it would take meshnets to a whole new level.

~~~
gioele
At least in EU, WiMax failed because the states decided to licence the
spectrum to the usual telcos that had no interest in deploying the technology
fearing a possible cannibalization of their own businesses.

However, WiMax is not a mesh network, although you can obviously use WiMax as
a physical link on top of which a mesh protocol can work.

~~~
northwest
I suppose it's time we have a public open hardware effort in order to break
the telcos' unhealthy monopoly.

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northwest
Question:

Could it be interesting to have the main project leaders set up a website
allowing everybody to pay hackers to come to your home and set up the required
equipment ready-to-use?

~~~
finnn
Yes, this possibility has been discussed. At this point we've got these
meshbox things which are basically plug-and-play meshnet nodes, but they dont
extend very far. For the sort of thing you're talking about it'll require
local involvement, but it's definitely something that's been discussed at my
local meshnet

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gboudrias
I'm part of the the Montreal mesh net. It's really cool to see news of the
movement on a mainstream platform.

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_pferreir_
paywall. nothing to see here, move along...

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hack37
behind pay wall...

