

Uber Is Serving New York’s Outer Boroughs More Than Taxis Are - svtrent
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/uber-is-serving-new-yorks-outer-boroughs-more-than-taxis-are/

======
somberi
This is good to know, but not very surprising. NY Taxis are known to refuse
rides to outer boroughs. A decade ago, one had to jump into the cab, tell him
that the destination is some fancy neighborhood, and then once he flags the
meter you tell him the real destination (Queens - gasp; Bronx - sheer
cursing). And often when the driver threatens to drop you off midway, you call
the authorities while in the cab.

For readers who think this is traumatic, it was, especially in winter nights
and your destination is not served by Subway.

In fact, some friends of mine that are Black had to dress extra nicely for an
otherwise casual dinner on Friday nights, just so that the cabbies would think
(wrongly) that the fare would be for some nice neighborhood. And one had to
make sure, he stands on avenues that are not pointing towards Harlem. It was a
done thing for a white buddy to hail the cab, and the black friend gets in
(There is a certain choreography that goes into this - the black person had to
stand close but not-too-close and in a location where he can apparate after
the cab has come to a halt but not in a way that gives him a chance to rev up
and scoot).

Here is a recent article from Huffpo and Washpo that talks about this in
detail:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/07/23/...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/07/23/as-
a-black-man-its-hard-to-catch-a-cab-research-shows-even-white-people-know-
that/)

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-larosa/nyc-cab-drivers-
bl...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-larosa/nyc-cab-drivers-
blacks_b_6116602.html?ir=India&adsSiteOverride=in)

~~~
jahnu
Out of curiosity can one not order a regular cab by phone to come and pick you
up at a destination and the dispatcher already knows the destination?

Where I live that's pretty normal and only costs a tiny bit more.

~~~
Spooky23
Cabs are hail only. Car services in NYC are either pretty shady or expensive.

The cheap reliable ones used to be focused on specific ethnic groups. Now they
have green cabs that work the boroughs and take calls as well.

~~~
acjohnson55
There are car services that are generally reliable. The problem is, this is on
a neighborhood-by-neighborhood basis. I know who to call to get me to the
airport from my apartment, but if I'm in an unfamiliar part of town and I
don't know someone who lives there, all bets are off.

------
brandonmenc
I was in NYC a couple weeks ago. Uber driver told me his brother drives a cab.

I asked if the cabbies were mad at Uber. He said Uber is good for them because
it reduced competition among cabbies for cabs. Apparently, before, you'd go
pick up your cab for the day and they'd tell you there were none left. And if
you did get a cab, the dispatchers would demand money in exchange for sending
you good fares.

Seems like Uber is good for cabbies, but not necessarily the medallion
holders.

The TV was also full of anti De Blasio ads from Uber.

~~~
knd775
I live in Virginia and have been getting those anti De Blasio ads... I'm not
sure why.

~~~
brandonmenc
I'd guess because there's a lot of commuting between NYC and the DC area.

------
seizethecheese
Earnings for Uber Driver = (timeDriving - timeLookingForFares) * payRate

Earnings for Cab Driver = (timeDriving - timeLookingForFares) * payRate

As a taxi driver, timeLookingForFares is heavily dependent on the amount of
people hailing cabs per block driven. As an Uber driver, since you are routed
to fares automatically the timeLookingForFares variable is dependent on both
how far away other cabs are and the density of riders.

Clearly cabs should clump in higher density areas.

~~~
cmarschner
Serious question: are there no taxi apps in the US? You would think cabs would
also be routed to the next customer automatically?

~~~
marquis
I'm not sure what stops EasyTaxi from working in the U.S. I use it in
South/Central America and it routes regular taxis, you pay in cash like usual
but get the convenience of the Uber experience of knowing a cab is on the way,
and who the driver is.

[http://www.easytaxi.com/cities/](http://www.easytaxi.com/cities/)

~~~
crdb
At a guess, it's because it's a Rocket Internet company and the group
generally does not like operating in the US for a variety of reasons (chief
amongst which is that their business model is to execute ideas in emerging
markets, not developed countries).

------
minimaxir
I took a look at the monthly revenues of Yellow Taxis and the # of total fares
with the NYC TLC data set that was released last week.

    
    
       SELECT LEFT(DATE(pickup_datetime),7) as month,
       SUM(fare_amount) as total_revenue,
       COUNT(*) as num_fares
       FROM [nyc-tlc:yellow.trips_2014], [nyc-tlc:yellow.trips_2015]
       GROUP BY month ORDER BY month
    

Here's the quick-and-dirty output:
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NVcScdHtcWvF9oSZGE3_...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NVcScdHtcWvF9oSZGE3_9Nr-
XHAuL5sAldtrV-PNh2A/edit?usp=sharing)

If Uber is eating the TLC's lunch, why isn't there a dramatic shift in revenue
loss? (trendline has only a slight decline) However, it does appear the #
fares are on a downward trend.

~~~
Axsuul
It's important to note that Uber also created a brand new market. Many of my
friends, and myself included, would've never considered using taxis "back in
the day" when doing errands or day-to-day activities. Alternatives would've
been to just drive ourselves or take public transportation. Uber and Lyft have
made it frictionless and convenient enough for everyday use.

What I'm trying to say is that Uber isn't only cannabilizing the market share
of taxis. Yes, they are definitely taking some of that, but more importantly
they are differentiating themselves enough to cater to a whole new crowd that
wouldn't have ever used taxis in the first place.

~~~
patio11
The existence of Uber literally changes my business travel planning.
Previously I'd always pick a hotel within walking distance of the primary
purpose of the trip (company office/conference/etc). Since Uber exists, I get
to pick any hotel in the city. I literally ran up more in Uber bills in 2
weeks than I've spent on American cabs in 33 years and couldn't be happier
with it.

(Anecdata: I actively avoid American cabs because I seem to have a sign
printed on my forehead "Please try scamming this kid. He will not escalate and
call the cops." Including, relevantly to this article, twice getting into a
cab in Manhattan and told that the cab did not service Brooklyn.)

~~~
crzwdjk
Not all cabs in the US are that terrible, but a lot of them are. To add to the
fun, taxicab regulation/licensing is done by the municipalities, which is okay
for somewhere like NYC, but in the Valley, Sunnyvale cabs are different from
Mountain View cabs or San Jose cabs or Palo Alto cabs. In Boston, Boston cabs
are different from Cambridge cabs or Somerville cabs or Brookline cabs or
Watertown cabs, and they're all not allowed to pick people up on the street in
"foreign" territory. Having one single company to deal with no matter where
you are in the metro area or the country or indeed the world makes things so
much easier.

~~~
go1979
Last time I was in the Bay area, I took cabs. Oh what horrible experiences!! I
finally took the plunge and used Uber. I was very satisfied until I
encountered "surge pricing" when going to the airport at 5am. I'm still a fan
but am a bit mixed about relying on it.

For long distance trips from the airport (hour long), I still think Uber is
pricey. On my last trip from an airport, a black car would have costed
120-150, with a driver in a suit or an Uber (90ish). Since surge pricing is
not predictable (by me), I would go for the black car option since it is
certain.

The whole discussion makes me realize there are multiple markets for cabs.
Uber definitely rocks the "hail a random cab for an impromptu ride" market.
The "planned trip to the airport, etc." is a different market that has yet to
be cracked.

~~~
crzwdjk
Because of stupid protectionist laws as I mentioned above, your (I presume) 40
mile trip to the airport is actually an 80 mile trip for the driver. Because
the airport belongs to the City and County of San Francisco, only San
Francisco taxis (and now Uber as well) are allowed to pick passengers at SFO,
so the driver has to drive back to his home town with no passengers. As for
surge pricing... well, presumably the conventional-taxi alternative is no cabs
available at all, but its unpredictability does sound annoying.

------
radley
Uber is serving Oakland CA waaaaaaay more than taxis ever would.

~~~
ghshephard
And South Peninsula - Getting a Cab in Redwood City, or Cupertino used to be a
minimum 30 minute way (Which I never understood - how can it _always_ be 30
minutes, why would there never be a cab 10 minutes away) - and, late at night,
Cabs would sometimes just not show up at all.

Uber is typically a 5-10 minute call away during the daytime in Redwood
City/Cupertino, and later at night, around 9:00 PM, you can get an Uber in <
20 minutes, which is awesome compared to the way it used to be.

~~~
SilasX
By coincidence, I just did a hackathon in Redwood City this weekend, and on
Friday ~11pm I was able to get one at an office park that arrived just after I
made it outside from the 2nd floor.

Whatever forces stopped this kind of thing from working before were destroying
a lot of value. I know there's always the talk of what cost Uber most be
socializing with this service, but even at a 50% fare increase that would have
been an extreme improvement over the previous options, so you can't really
explain it away as pure cost hiding.

~~~
isubkhankulov
Do you remember if you paid surge pricing? i would guess thats probably the
reason. i'm from NYC but am currently in SF. both cities have surge pricing
late at night, or when its raining in NYC. taxi regulations artificially
depress prices but Uber may have created a fair (?) way of pricing things
properly. hence service becomes faster. i'm sure surge pricing creates
incentives for more uber drivers to drive at night over time, hopefully it
will even out.

~~~
ghshephard
Some people don't like the surge - I love it. It means that 100% of the time
when I take out my mobile phone, and open up the Uber App, I'm going to get an
Uber in a major metropolitan area. I then get to decide _for myself_ whether
I'm willing to pay that surge price.

With Taxi's, the decision is taken out of my hands. There are just no taxi's
available during rush periods, and I'm left stranded.

~~~
coldpie
"Taxis." In English, we use a plain S for plural nouns.

~~~
ghshephard
Apologies. Normally I catch stuff like that when I read it (but quite often
not when I type it) - and it's _incredibly_ frustrating to see. I have an
increasing tendency to confuse where/were, there/their, its/it's when I type,
and I have to insert a 60 second delay before hitting submit and confirming I
haven't blown it. Particularly annoying is the use of _' s_ when it's not
needed. Thanks for pointing it out.

~~~
coldpie
No worries. Thanks for fixing it.

------
JohnyLy
I am not surprised. Last time I was in New York, I wasn't in downtown and it
was so hard for me to get a taxi. There are so many taxis in NYC but most of
them stay in the same area. As soon as you are not in a populated area, it's
close to impossible to grab a taxi. I am pleased that Uber is making things
move.

~~~
smackfu
Isn't Uber really replacing calling a car service or taxi then?

------
eyeinthepyramid
The title of this article is a little misleading. In absolute terms, medallion
cabs are still about 10x more active in outer boroughs than Uber. (~1M rides
for Uber vs ~12M rides for green/yellow cabs).

It seems like it would be more appropriate to compare these figures to other
livery cab companies since that is essentially what Uber is. I don't think
it's very surprising that Manhattan has a higher percentage of street hails
than the outer boroughs.

------
kin
I was in NYC a few weeks ago and Lyft Line was $5 flat rate anywhere in
Manhattan! Beats taking the subway if you ask me.

On a more related note when I was in Bushwick in Brooklyn it was pretty much
impossible to even see a cab let alone hail one. I didn't even think twice
about calling an Uber to take me back to the city.

~~~
untog
_I was in NYC a few weeks ago and Lyft Line was $5 flat rate anywhere in
Manhattan!_

Here's the problem with that - it's a heavily subsidised, promo rate. None of
us should get used to it, because once Uber/Lyft destroys the other they'll
stop doing it.

~~~
jdminhbg
That's definitely a limited-time-only offer, but how are Uber or Lyft going to
destroy each other? Maybe by erecting some kind of regulatory wall, but
otherwise, the barrier to entry seems so low it's hard to imagine one of them
winning a monopoly.

~~~
untog
The barrier to entry is huge - getting people to download your app and getting
drivers to drive those users around is not a simple process. That's why
numerous apps have already left the market.

------
jsilence
Here in Germany you call a cab with your phone when you are away from the city
center. Usually the taxi arrives within ten minutes.

~~~
cmsmith
You can do that in the USA too. Generally, the cab will arrive - but in many
cases it is not profitable for the driver to come out of their way to pick you
up so sometimes they will not. The problem being that cab drivers are mostly
independent contractors, and the cab dispatcher and government regulators
don't have much ability to force them to do things that will lose money.

~~~
hackuser
> but in many cases it is not profitable for the driver to come out of their
> way to pick you up so sometimes they will not

How is the same thing profitable for Uber drivers?

~~~
pjc50
Uber drivers don't pay for the rationed "taxi medallion", which elsewhere in
this thread is reported at ~$100/day.

~~~
Ollinson
I believe the OP is talking about a car service, not a medallion taxi cab.

------
GeorgeOrr
For a long time Taxi's have had a monopoly on their market. Like any monopoly
they under-serve.

Nice that Uber is shaking that up.

------
ehmuidifici
Meanwhile, in Brazil, Uber Drivers are being kidnapped by taxi drivers and get
their cars smashed...

~~~
GFischer
Same here in Uruguay for EasyTaxi drivers (an Uber clone).

I was encouraged to apply for at position for Uber in Uruguay, but I'm really
not cut out for the work (it involves fighting the extremely strong cab
driver's union here, which isn't above kneecapping).

------
jmspring
Seems like the best use for uber. Honestly, in European capitals I've been in,
uber was better in the outskirts than hailing something in the interior. Seems
like a logical extension.

In some cities, like Tel Aviv, Get Taxi and Uber use a similar model (all
licensed cabs) but coverage and penetration matters.

------
pbreit
I think it's fairly obvious that the Uber/Lyft model is inherently more
effective at serving the outer regions.

I'd be more interested to understand if Manhattan congestion is a legitimate
concern.

------
1971genocide
I listen to NPR and it seems there is a lot of anxiety among people about
technology and automation and it seems all doom and gloom, it almost makes me
feel guilty.

But after I though about for a while I realized its all rubbish and technology
is being used as a scapegoat.

Technology has allowed constant deflation in the past 40 years for everything
from food to transportation due to enormous efficiency gains.

If it WAS NOT for technological innovation there would have been a revolution
by now, since cost of housing, education and healthcare has shot up ( as well
explained by Elizabeth warren's research ).

While wages have been dropping in real terms. Essentially technology has
allowed people to afford clothes, etc. Without it the average person wouldn't
be able to afford anything.

So the reality is things like the Uber revolution is not happening fast enough
! The average cost of taxi rides is ridiculous compared to what it was in the
past.

The real controversy is not Uber causing joblessness. If we want to innovate a
lot - there is always going to be constant destruction of old methods. Uber
will be replaced with driverless cars, who will be replaced by personalized
solar driverless cars, etc.

Those jobless people should became part of the supply to bring those changes.

\----------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Raghuram Rajan [1] essentially helped me see capitalism and the free
market in this new more enlightened light.

Capitalism seems to be getting a lot of bad rep since 2008 - but its not the
fault of the free market. This medallion bullshit is what is holding the free
market behind and creating a welfare system for taxi drivers and billionaires.

In a real free market billionaires would quickly lose their wealth as new
competition would destroy their wealth.

Rather than protect workers - we should try to retrain them for the coming
knowledge economy.

[1] Dr. Raghuram Rajan predicted the financial crisis in 2005 while working
for the IMF. He has a great book called "Saving Capitalism from the
Capitalist".

His argument for reform is really controversial - essentially he states the US
economy is overinflated, the military industrial complex, housing, financial
services. While the real economy hasn't been able to grow, compared to
germany, etc.

He doesn't believe the Keynesian argument about a loss of aggregate demand -
there is always demand for things - housing, better healthcare. Its just that
the supply side is completely distorted - and this taxi cartel is one example.

The US spent trillions on QE to prop up the housing bubble even more - while
it could have used that money to retrain the workforce to do more productive
things - more doctors, more engineers to create robots.

Even though there is no demand for houses at the price that people want to
sell. Sure a lot of baby boomers will end up with negative equity but that is
capitalism and Free market ! Its your decision to tie up all your wealth on
your house rather than invest in your kid's education or pay higher taxes so
government could pay if for you and create better healthcare.

The government is the biggest culprit, they tried distorting the market by
allowing the buyers to have more credit than they could afford.

Sorry about being so ranty. But I do not want my industry to be scapegoated.

~~~
crdoconnor
>This medallion bullshit is what is holding the free market behind and
creating a welfare system for taxi drivers

How exactly is being forced to pay to do your job a "welfare system"?

~~~
pjc50
Yeah, it's very definitely a form of rentier capitalism: the creation of an
artificially scarce resource on which monopoly rents can be charged.

------
misiti3780
did they release this uber data to the public: i dont see it in these tables:

[https://bigquery.cloud.google.com/results/emerald-
diagram-43...](https://bigquery.cloud.google.com/results/emerald-
diagram-436:job_KoU5_gm-fNouSKEPduQqdBA5aUk)

------
smackfu
Doesn't it make sense that street hails would be lower in areas with a lower
rider density?

------
hackuser
But not Upper Manhatten. The way the questions are constructed and the way the
author headlines where Uber is superior, rather than inferior (or better yet,
rather than both), feels like yet more Ubermania, not balanced analysis. It's
getting old.

I'm not even quite sure I know mine or the public's interest? Why do I care?

Hmmm ... At least, drivers and passengers should be protected, and I think
services should be available to as broad a segment of the community as
possible. And decisions for the community should be made democratically, not
by whoever spends the most.

~~~
13thLetter
>And decisions for the community should be made democratically, not by whoever
spends the most.

Is "What cab service should I, a random private citizen, use?" a decision for
the community to be made democratically?

