
Microsoft please clean your store of junk - sardorbek
http://oneslash.postach.io/microsoft-please-clean-your-store-from-junk
======
pioul
Another related issue I've been having with the WP Store as a developer:

I made a WP7 app a while back to give a try, based on a site's API that has
since been discontinued. Obviously, the app doesn't work anymore, since it was
focused on content consumption from that API.

But since then, my developer license has expired. Even though I need to remove
the app (somehow new users keep coming), the WP Store won't allow me to do so
without an active developer license.

Too bad for the fooled users, I guess.

------
adjwilli
A friend and I published some apps on the Microsoft store a few years ago,
when it was still for Windows Phone 7. We've received several emails from
Microsoft saying we need to update this and that or our apps will be removed.
Because the apps never did that well - not surprisingly in hindsight given the
market size - we never updated them. However we still get checks occasionally
from the proceeds. Microsoft never removed them. I think they're just
desperate to have apps in their store and inflated app numbers they can brag
about. They obviously know what to do, but just aren't doing it.

~~~
chaz
Apple, in its position of strength, made the game all about app counts. Year
after year, they updated the total app count no matter how trivial the app,
and declared victory over Google, Microsoft, Palm, and BlackBerry. Microsoft
has been baited into the game, and can't possibly win.

They need to change the conversation to one of strength. Ray Ozzie (while
still at MS) was excoriated in the press for saying, "Apps don't make your
phone special ... All the apps that count will be ported to every one of
them." But I think he's right. Almost every app that I use every day is
available on every platform, or has an excellent equivalent, but there are big
gaps in niche categories and games.

~~~
philwelch
It's funny because in the 90's, Windows had many more apps than Macintosh and
made a lot of hay out of that fact.

~~~
WA
So maybe MS should do what Apple did in the 90's to differentiate itself and
get away from the raw numbers. Do you know what they did? I don't.

~~~
n09n
Flounder around on the brink of bankruptcy until finding runaway success in a
totally unrelated market?

~~~
philwelch
Apple was on the brink of bankruptcy in 1996 and 1997. The iPod wasn't
released until 2001. Between 97 and 01 they returned to profitability and
served one of the most brand loyal niches in the world.

Of course, there's no one in the world who doesn't work for Microsoft who
loves Windows Phone even half as much as people loved their Macs in the late
90's.

------
ssully
As others have said they like having these crap apps for the number count.
Last summer Microsoft had a developer promotion where they would give you 100
dollars per successfully submitted app. You could submit 10 for the regular
store, and 10 for the phone store, so you could get 2000 total.

The reason I even knew this was because a Microsoft rep came to my school to
promote it. He did a workshop that basically taught us how to submit apps to
the windows store. Part of the process was making a boilerplate app that we
used a third party application to make. The entire class, about 20 students,
made similar "whack a mole" game apps, all of which successfully submitted. We
all got 100 dollars and all of our apps are still in the store.

[http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/rat-
smash/ea0e98...](http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/rat-
smash/ea0e989d-21ef-442e-b62b-757d31317071)

Go ahead and check it out; I promise it's as horrible as it looks.

~~~
dredmorbius
_they like having these crap apps for the number count._

Which is a _very_ strong argument for not using idiotic performance metrics
(the app count is almost certainly built into multiple levels of policy goals
at MSFT).

Or, as I like to say: be careful of what you incent for. You will get it.

~~~
lostlogin
Market share is another metric like this in my opinion. The local newspaper
owns its market completely. I bet advertisers get given all sorts of
impressive stats. I bet they count me and both my neighbours as readers,
despite all three copies going from the letterbox, up the drive and into the
recycling bin (or the fire in winter).

~~~
dredmorbius
Right. That drives the distribution of "free" newpapers and publications of
various stripes.

The real meat is in producing results -- a reason I've found CPM or
clickthroughs or readership, or other forms of measurement to be somewhere
between irrelevant and misleading. It's why promo codes (including branded
URLs such as [http://product.example.com/npr](http://product.example.com/npr)
, say) are used (they track responses). Similarly coupons or other special
deals.

Don Marti's long argued that highly-targeted advertising actually has strongly
negative. That it's the very _wastefulness_ of mass advertising that's a
powerful part of the signal:

[http://zgp.org/targeted-advertising-considered-
harmful/#targ...](http://zgp.org/targeted-advertising-considered-
harmful/#targeting-failure-legit-sites-lose-intermediarieswin)

Quoting Evan Davis et al: “It is not so much the claims made by advertisers
that are helpful, but the fact that they are willing to spend extravagant
amounts of money on a product that is informative.”

Of course, this can backfire: if I'm aware that a specific advertiser (or
industry) has a long history of deceptive advertising or trade practices, I
may read their ads as a negative signal (as, in fact, I do for many mass-
market consumer goods: if you've got to spend _that much money_ convincing me
this is something worth buying, it's quite possibly not).

------
frigg
Yeah, this is obviously a problem but let's not ignore the other elephant in
the room. Here's a search for facebook* on google play. The only reason this
post about Microsoft made it to the front page of HN is because of a negative
thing about the Windows Phone store. And please don't tell me HN moderators
don't remove posts about Microsoft, I just asked something about WP8 a few
days ago and within 10 minutes it was removed. Others have complained about it
as well. I wish HN would stop being so damn biased.

[https://play.google.com/store/search?q=facebook&c=apps](https://play.google.com/store/search?q=facebook&c=apps)

~~~
mratzloff
Yes, the Google Play store has heaps of garbage apps as well (and worse), but
at least other apps aren't permitted to directly copy and use Facebook's app
icon, making their app indistinguishable from the official one.

~~~
ansible
And the Facebook app is written by Facebook. And it is the first one. So even
on the basic search page, it is easy to figure out which one is the official
one.

That's not to say the Play store doesn't drive me to distraction sometimes...
I recently had to look at over a dozen flashlight apps to find one or two that
weren't spamming me with ads and looking at my personal information.

------
vtbassmatt
At a glance, Google Play appears to have similar levels of app-spam for
Facebook [0], Chrome [1], and Firefox [2]. The iTunes Store, on the other
hand, seems quite sanitary for these queries. Just 1-2 potentially-junk
"browsers", and nothing bogus for Facebook.

Disclosure: I work for Microsoft, but not in the Windows Phone division.

[0]
[https://play.google.com/store/search?q=facebook&c=apps](https://play.google.com/store/search?q=facebook&c=apps)

[1]
[https://play.google.com/store/search?q=chrome&c=apps](https://play.google.com/store/search?q=chrome&c=apps)

[2]
[https://play.google.com/store/search?q=firefox&c=apps](https://play.google.com/store/search?q=firefox&c=apps)

~~~
leobelle
Uh, in no way shape or form are those results the same as the screenshots for
the Windows App store. I don't see a single result where an official name is
used to fake being the real thing.

It looks like only the official apps have the official name and the other
things are just add ons or silly, small value additions to Facebook, Chrome,
or Firefox.

Having said that, that is a shit load of low quality crap, but all app stores
have junk like that including the iOS app store.

~~~
edj
_Uh, in no way shape or form are those results the same as the screenshots for
the Windows App store. I don 't see a single result where an official name is
used to fake being the real thing._

I agree that the Windows App Store examples are way more egregious, but some
of the apps in the Google store are nearly as bad. Top right among the
Facebook examples is especially deceptive.

[https://play.google.com/store/search?q=facebook&c=apps](https://play.google.com/store/search?q=facebook&c=apps)

~~~
potatolicious
The key difference here (and this is true on Apple's App Store also) is that
the publisher name is directly under the app name. Users in general are aware
that there are many scam/fake/imitator apps out there, but the publisher name
provides a quick way of verifying the legitimacy of an app.

Compare that with the Windows Store screenshot where there's literally no way
to tell which is the real one.

The existence of this problem is shitty, absolutely, but on Android and iOS
there exist viable, discoverable workarounds. On Windows Store...

------
mcormier
As much as Apple's review process and curating can be a pain in the ass. This
definitely shows the other end of the spectrum and what happens if you don't
have any reviewing.

~~~
lostcolony
I'm not sure anyone objects to curating, per se, more the fact that Apple
isn't transparent, fair, or consistent about what causes an app to be
rejected.

~~~
Pxtl
Also, the fact that the curated store is the _only_ way to get your software
onto their device.

If Best Buy doesn't want to sell my PC software, I can sell it through other
channels.

If Apple doesn't want to sell my iOS software, I can't.

Android lets you sell stuff outside of the play store - look how well the
Humble Android bundles do.

------
aegiso

      1. New platform with not many apps
      2. Gotta play Apple's game and tout the app count
      3. Devs plz more apps kthxbye; don't worry about quality -- we'll look the other way and hose down criticism with excuses
      4. Consumers see how desolate, harsh, and unusable the whole ecosystem is -- further rerouting them to Apple
      5. Goto 1, with more gusto and a new reorg

~~~
nirnira
It's just pathetic how dumb they are.

------
300bps
A year ago, Microsoft needed to do this to inflate their app numbers because
there were much fewer apps in the Windows Phone store.

But now I'm actually shocked how many apps/games are available on Windows
Phone. Jetpack Joyride, Subway Surfers, Minion Rush are three popular games on
other platforms that I recently installed for my youngest son while at my
older son's basketball game recently.

...and as a former 6 year user of iPhones, the "Kids Corner" that is on
Windows Phone totally separates kid-approved activities (games) from non-kid-
approved activities (my email, twitter, facebook, etc). That feature alone is
worth upgrading to Windows Phone if you have kids that occasionally use your
phone.

------
cordite
An evangelist came to my university to try to get the students to make apps.

They just wanted to boost their numbers artificially, and they were willing to
pay hundreds to students for making these crappy things.

~~~
maaaats
I have had events like that from all kind of companies, nothing unique about
this, and it's certainly not about boosting their numbers. It's about getting
students to learn their technologies and then use them later.

Blackberry recently paid developers to port apps to their platform. Is that
"artificially boosting their numbers", or just smart marketing? I don't see
any problems with this.

~~~
eropple
When they literally don't care what the app is (paying a developer $100 for a
flashlight app), yeah, it doesn't speak well of their desires to serve their
users.

------
johsoe
This slightly angers me coming from several attempts to upload legit WP8 apps.

Privacy policies not being "good" enough, no location tracking switch in a
"location aware" app, little to no experiences from other developers(typical
stackoverflow trouble shooting becoming impossible), worse app approval
process than Apple.. the list goes on. This being in a platform which they're
trying to push. :(

~~~
teamonkey
Call me crazy, but I WANT the privacy policy and to be able to switch off
location services if I don't trust your app. I'm glad they have these policies
in place.

There are a lot of things to complain about the Windows Store but from a
consumer's point of view that's not one if them.

------
rossjudson
The root problem here is the single storefront exhibited in each of the major
device universes: Apple Store, Microsoft Store, etc...a permanent solution to
the problem is simple. Create a series of storefronts that are tiered. You can
get almost anything into the dollar store equivalent. And then you have to
apply to move into the higher tier, or a focused tier. It should cost money to
do so -- which could be paid back out of sales at the new tier.

Physical stores have buyers who inspect products, negotiate, and select. App
stores need to the same thing.

It's been a long time since I've bought anything on an app store. There's just
way too much crap to wade through, making it a waste of time.

~~~
troymc
Maybe Microsoft thought WP owners would give the bad apps bad reviews, so that
the best app would rise to the top?

I suppose if I wanted the real Facebook app for Windows Phone, I'd just go to
Google and search for:

site:facebook.com app "windows phone"

Most people aren't going to do that though.

~~~
teamonkey
There's a lot of fake review spam. It's pretty blatant too.

------
Eeko
The funny thing is, that these days the simple 3rd party "fake" and costly
clients are often superior against the official apps. Less leaking location,
address books, text messages and usage patterns, please.

------
legulere
Sounds like cases where the owners of the trademarks (Faceboook, Google and
Mozilla) should get active.

~~~
sardorbek
It was news regarding Facebook apps 2-3 month ago, that Microsoft will remove
them all.

As you can see its not done :(

------
vmarsy
The best way to get good apps on a Windows phone is to get an app (developed
by Microsoft!) that warns you when new & popular apps are here.

The fact that this app exists tells there's a problem with the Windows store
search.

But as the OP says, they're also plenty of good quality apps: from small tools
like the Bill reminder, or non-shady flashlights apps which doesn't require an
Internet connection and your phonebook address, to an official GTA San
Andreas.

------
ecesena
+1!

We recently released a Windows 8 app [1], categorized as news, pretty cool I'd
modestly say... but if you search for "news" it takes 10 pages of horizontal
scroll to find Theneeds... and most of the app out there are really poor (I'd
modestly say :)

[1] [http://www.theneeds.com/p/win8](http://www.theneeds.com/p/win8)

------
ZoFreX
The frustrating thing is that there are some really good apps amongst all the
clutter. Thankfully you can download a free trial of almost all paid apps so
you can figure out which one is for you, but it still takes a bit of work. But
I was very pleasantly surprised that I could find high quality apps to cover
just about everything I did on my phone, when I had a Windows phone for a
month.

Another problem I noticed at the time (I don't know if it is still the case)
was that the store was flooded with fake reviews. Painfully obviously fake. So
you have to try before you buy - which fortunately they do make very easy.

------
GeneralMayhem
So why hasn't Facebook taken them to the cleaners for IP and brand damage?

~~~
troymc
or trademark infringement.

Maybe the offending WP app makers are in a legal jurisdiction beyond
Facebook's reach?

~~~
GeneralMayhem
Doesn't matter, they should be able to DMCA the hell out of MS.

~~~
troymc
I thought the DMCA was about copyrights, not trademarks.

------
level09
They probably need some smart ranking/popularity algorithm. Apple's app store
has a lot of junk as well, but somehow they manage to sort them in a good way.

------
kispester
It's not about quantity. It's about quality. And every big player is trying to
crush Windows Phone platform. Google is so ridiculous that they're willing to
lose big money by not making its glorified ad service on the platform. Google
made Youtube and pulled back, Google search on WP is ridiculous. Not even
Maps, which has great social network potential, much more than Youtube.

~~~
raptormissle
It's ridiculous that you think that

"Google is so ridiculous that they're willing to lose big money by not making
its glorified ad service on the platform."

On the contrary, Google is brilliant by not wasting their time and money on an
irrelevant platform that has no hope for success and market share adoption.

------
contextfree
# of apps as a metric is like # of lines of code - it ought to be "booked on
the other side of the ledger" (
[http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD05xx/EW...](http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD05xx/EWD513.html)
)

------
higherpurpose
Yes, but then how would they be able to mislead people into thinking their
platform has a lot of apps, too?

------
analog31
Oddly enough, there's at least a dozen Hacker News apps at the Android store.
Granted, there is no "official" HN app, so these aren't fakes of anything. I
decided that the last thing I need is HN burning a hole in my pocket all day
long when I should be working.

------
donniefitz2
I recently switched to WP and was surprised at the low quality apps. But, for
me it's a good thing because it presents an opportunity for me, as a dev, to
create quality apps. Microsoft really does need to clean house in the store.

------
wdr1
Microsoft likes to bring out the number of apps in their store, especially so
it looks competitive to the Apple App store.

Unfortunately, cleaning junk out of the store is counter to that goal.

------
Geee
Microsoft truly never ceases to amaze me. Good reminder of why I hate them. I
was almost starting to believe that WP is actually quite good.

~~~
sardorbek
I love Microsoft, and their technologies. I love Windows Phone. I am just not
happy with the apps in the store.

I recommend you Windows Phone :)

~~~
Geee
Have you tried purchasing Windows 8 online? That's another experience
altogether. I did that. It took 2 hours to make the purchase, with their
horribly buggy store that doesn't even allow removing items from the shopping
cart (had to clear cookies). It also requires Silverlight, which also crashes
during the payment verification.

It cost me $199 and all I got was Windows_installer.exe, what a horrible joke.
Well, let's try to get my hands on a Windows machine and proceed to generate
installable boot image from the downloaded files. That went quite well, but I
was furious at this point.

Ok, let's install and boot into my fresh Windows 8. That went fine. Next,
let's try to activate it, and it says: 'This product key can only be used for
Windows updates'.

Microsoft, are you kidding me? At that point I decided that I won't ever touch
any Microsoft products even with a ten foot pole. I don't trust them, they are
liars, and their products suck. Microsoft will not improve.

Look at that page:
[http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Windows-...](http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Windows-8-Pro/productID.257987100)

Then tell me how that is not lying to your customers? The information that
this product is just an update from existing Windows installation is at the
bottom of the page, no one reads that!

~~~
jkrems
Same experience. Wanted to setup a VM with Windows, purchased Windows 8, and
ended up with a .exe and no legal way of getting the actual image without
already having Windows. It's ridiculous.

------
sidcool
if they removed the apps, their app stats would really f __k up.

------
sifarat
had they been smart enough, perhaps the company would have been in better
share than it is today, in regard to smartphone warfare.

------
nirnira
Anyone who's owned a Windows Phone already knows this. Search for anything.
Doesn't matter what it is. No matter what you search for, you'll get pages of
results - of the worst apps you have ever seen. Absolute trash. It's
disgusting. It makes me never want to use their app store. The fact that they
not only condone it, they actively encouraged it just makes me sick. How
insecure are they? How stupid are they? Do they really think the best way to
cover their insecurity about being 3rd place is with bluster and bullshit? Do
they really think their customers are that stupid? Whatever happened to the
old philosophy of competing by trying to build clear, demonstrable superiority
- a better product?

It's mind-boggling. From which point in the organisation does this insanity
stem? I want to like Microsoft, but shit like this makes me feel like a fool
for ever giving them a chance. Seriously. Good thing my next phone is a
Nexus... great job Microsoft. Way to build loyalty among your customers. And
Steve Ballmer has the nerve to call MS "ethical" and "forward-thinking."

Anyone reading this who works at Microsoft - I am genuinely curious - how do
you sleep at night?

~~~
valleyer
> Anyone reading this who works at Microsoft - I am genuinely curious - how do
> you sleep at night?

Dude. Do you really think that everyone who works at Microsoft is responsible
for or even has the ability to change their app store?

~~~
nirnira
So what, they just say, oh well, nothing to do with me? Great, how noble.

~~~
iopq
What are they going to do? It's Microsoft, it's not like the rank and file
employee can just tell the executives "I don't like your apps strategy in
Windows phone" and expect them to immediately change it.

------
jaunkst
Do we really want another crappy mobile browser and platform to support? We
don't need them in mobile space anyways. I don't see a future in Microsoft
mobile devices. They really missed the mark while everyone else is on their
4th lap of the race.

