
Surface Book – It’s Easy to Switch from Mac to Surface - vsakos
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book/compare-to-mac
======
gnaddel
I have become extremely weary of buying Microsoft hardware products. I was
(and am) very happy with my Surface Pro 2. Recently, my power supply broke
after two years of use, perfectly fine in my book, it happens. However,
Microsoft has stopped selling replacement parts after less than three years. I
did not find any vendor in Germany that could still deliver. I got lucky and
found _one_ seller in the UK. There are some third party copies of the
adapter, but due to the proprietary connector they are rare and reviews are
abysmal.

~~~
wlesieutre
For all the complaints about Apple dropping magsafe, I'm happy to finally have
industry standard charging. Brick is easily replacable. Cable is easily
replacable. Should work with any new computer, or even to cell phones and
tablets (with a C to Lightning cable if you're an iPhone person).

Apple made a similar switch from one proprietary charging connector (magsafe
1) to another proprietary connector (magsafe 2) and it's a compatibility
hassle between computers. For Surfaces it's an even bigger mess, because like
you said, MS doesn't make them anymore. A coworker of mine had the same
situation with a Surface Pro 1. Computer still works fine, but the power cord
died, and good luck getting a replacement quickly. If you do find a 3rd party
version, good luck with not burning your house down.

~~~
slantyyz
>> I'm happy to finally have industry standard charging.

Real question to people in the know - is this truly the case?

I get that the port is industry standard, but are there electrical protections
put in place?

If I use a 100W non-Apple charger on a MacBook Pro that uses a 63W charger
will it damage the battery? Will a USB-C phone charger (with presumably very
low wattage) work as well (albeit slower)?

While I really like that TB/USB3 ports are standard, it is incredibly
confusing to laypeople with respect to understanding all the nuances.

~~~
wlesieutre
Apple's official note says "You should not connect any power supply that
exceeds 100W, as it might damage your Mac." [1]

This is the maximum wattage allowed under the USB Power Delivery spec [2], so
any USB-C power supply should work. Maximum voltage/current is negotiated
between the supply, cable, and computer, which should select the highest
amount supported by all parts of the system.

If you're using a cheap 3rd-party charger that doesn't follow the spec and
decides it's going to tell the computer "I support 100W, let's do that!" and
then jacks up the voltage beyond the USB power delivery limits, then yeah,
expect to have problems.

The problem that I actually imagine happening is people getting a 20W rated
cable with their cell phone, trying to power their computer through it, and
wondering why the battery continues to drain.

[1] [https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207256](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT207256)

[2]
[http://www.usb.org/developers/powerdelivery/](http://www.usb.org/developers/powerdelivery/)

------
lostgame
Unfortunately, Apple's done such a good job of keeping me locked to their
software ecosystem I cannot consider this, though I vastly prefer the Surface
hardware.

Even if I wasn't an iOS developer, my other two jobs are Audio
Production/editing and Video Production/editing.

While I could almost happily toss Final Cut out the window (we all know what a
disaster the FCP7 -> FCPX transition was, and my friends in the industry tell
me Premiere is where it's at right now), I am highly, highly dependant on
Logic.

I've been using Logic in some shape or form for more than a decade, I picked
up my first Mac Mini G4 in 2004(5?) and proceeded to learn Garageband inside
out and backwards, got all the Jam Packs (which are now included in Logic,
they used to be $99/apiece and now all 6 are included in Logic for $199...go
figure) and got completely used to making music this way. (I moved to actual
Logic from GB in 2008-2009.)

I've tried Ableton, and can't get past it's convoluted UI and complete lack of
bundled instruments (Logic comes with more than 50GB of included content, and
recently added a phenomenal new synth called Alchemy), Pro Tools is expensive
and almost requires better than top-of-the-line Mac hardware, etc, etc.

The amount of time it would take me to switch, and learn another DAW, after 10
years of experience, I'd never get back.

I can open Logic, pick up a MIDI instrument, select some of the phenomenal
built-in sounds, get a USB mic and have a freakin' awesome track down in like
a half-hour.

Possible with Ableton or Pro Tools? Of course. But I'm not about to throw 10
years of experience out the window.

Combine that with xCode and it's iOS-specific toolkit, Final Cut (which I'm
finally used to) and I get this really shitty realization that I'm going to be
stuck with this software for a long, long, time and am basically just at the
mercy of Apple's business decisions.

~~~
mntmn
Have you looked at Bitwig Studio? I recently switched to it from years of
Logic use and I actually like it more, even on Linux (it runs on
Win/Mac/Linux).

~~~
lostgame
I think, personally, having worked at various music software technology
companies, I'd prefer to try an open-source DAW if I'm going to move away, so
I can modify it myself and add/modify features/UI/UX as I see fit.

~~~
yannovitch
Reaper then, even if it's not open a source, you can truly customize it!

------
csixty4
The page is kinda light on details.

From my experience doing web development, msys2 + PuTTY/Pagent give me pretty
much everything I need. I don't even use bash; everything I need is available
from cmd.exe, including tools like ls & grep.

Microsoft isn't going to say so, but you can get an Office365 gift card for
like $20 on eBay. That gives you the Office apps plus a good chunk of storage
on OneDrive and some Skype credit for a year.

It wasn't as painful of a transition as I expected. I guess it helps that so
much of my life is in the cloud these days anyway.

~~~
dublinben
>I guess it helps that so much of my life is in the cloud these days anyway

This seems like an excellent reason to _not_ be using Windows as your
underlying OS. The rampant privacy and security issues should be enough to
keep any business from trusting it. The lack of a compelling reason to choose
it should be the end of the story.

~~~
brazzledazzle
Microsoft's business versions of Windows have substantially different
configuration settings and license agreements.

------
morley
I'm a frontend dev who worked on Windows for 4 years, and switched to Mac in
the last 2.

The biggest hurdle I had with switching was the muscle memory of cmd-[char]
vs. ctrl-[char], and tangentially the Windows-specific productivity keyboard
shortcuts (mainly win-[char]) and Mac-specific ones.

The second-biggest hurdle is the different mouse movement kinetics on each
platform.

These are still "hurdles": I have a Macbook at work, and a Macbook Air and
Windows desktop at home. I basically can't do external keyboard + mouse at
work for fear of screwing up my muscle memory for when I use my Windows
desktop.

All this to say, it's not the camera, graphics card, detachable screen, or
whatever is highlighted on this page that makes the switch hard. It's the low
level stuff.

~~~
Meegul
As a dev that frequently works on different linux distros, mac, and Windows, I
recommend just getting used to disabling mouse acceleration. That is, if
you're using a mouse. On a touchpad, I'd never recommend that, but if you're
mouse-only then it makes the transition between the three os's fairly
seamless.

~~~
jacobolus
If you want to do that you need to get a very sensitive mouse with the
sensitivity cranked up (so that you can move the mouse across a large screen,
something especially important on a Mac where menus are pegged to the top of
the screen), and train yourself to make very careful tiny movements when you
need precision. For a Mac user used to making relatively large but slow mouse
movements for precision, this is definitely doable, but takes some significant
retraining effort.

Personally what I’d love to do is disable acceleration on the computer side,
and have my own hardware intermediary between the mouse and the computer, on
which I can implement whatever sensor input -> pixel movement logic I want.
For example, having a button to hold down for more precise movement, and
another button to hold down to convert movement to scrolling.

------
hartator
I think it's interesting they don't mention Linux subsystem for Windows 10.

As a developer, MacOS CLI was the biggest advantage over Windows. Now, you
have the full Ubuntu CLI at your fingertip including apt-get install. No VM.
It's a big selling point.

~~~
blakesterz
Is there a good terminal application with TABS for Win 10?

~~~
cozuya
I'm using consoleZ, its.. ok. Console 2 seemed a little more robust, may give
that a shot again. Getting things like right click context menu "console here"
involves fun registry editing..

[https://github.com/cbucher/console](https://github.com/cbucher/console)

------
wyager
This "switch from mac" furor is hilarious to me. In 3 years people will be
saying "Remember how upset people were getting about losing the escape key?".
This feels the same as Apple not supporting flash or microsd cards on iPhones.
Everyone made a big stink about it at the time, and a few years down the road
flash is dead and no one cares about microsd cards. It will be the same with
USB C and dongles; in a few years everything will be on USB C anyway.

~~~
bitL
Can't wait to try debugging on a touch bar and needing to look at the bar if I
am indeed touching the right operation. I don't want to end up with a
remapping where I need to press Fn + number to get Fxy function key. Better
IMO would have been if every Fxy key had its own customizable OLED/e-ink
display; then I would be "awesomed" by this innovation. Even with a separate
touch bar on top of it. All real DJs use proper external controllers anyway
and the bigger the better, nobody is going to DJ like that poor guy during
Apple demo...

~~~
Jtsummers
I would like both the touch bar AND the function keys, but the touch bar will
be more versatile than just OLED/e-ink displays on top of keys. You can
actually use it as a slider. You get more surface area to display controls.
You can offer something more than just a symbol for the controls. I don't know
how well it'll work (none of us do, it's not shipped and reviewed yet, not
fully at least). But the potential for many applications is there.

~~~
bitL
As an addition to Fxy keys I am fine with it. Replacing Fxy keys like what
Lenovo did to their X1 Carbons with their "Adaptive keyboard" ended up
angering too many developers (though to be honest it was also Windows/Lenovo
SW issue as you had to do some registry hacks to add apps that were supposed
to use active keyboard and this ended up super inconsistent). Also, some
people say touch bar is a poor man's touchscreen as by adding touchscreen you
won't need a touch bar and it would be more flexible (though I prefer my
screen without fingerprints everywhere).

~~~
Jtsummers
Well, even adding a touch screen still requires a redesign of applications.
Buttons need to be larger, interfaces need to be _designed_ for touch screen.
macOS isn't targeted towards that (yet, I feel Apple's anti-PC touchscreen
statements are too strong as it's an inevitable development). Consequently,
the interface would be, alien. I've used Windows tablets (Windows 7), with a
pen input device. It works, but it's awkward. Even if they'd had an iPad-
quality capacitive input for fingers, with non-touch screen apps it would
still be awkward. That's the same experience I'd anticipate using a touch
screen with today's macOS and apps.

They need to layout a roadmap for this development, rather than dropping the
hardware in without the software to support it. Chicken and egg problem.

------
bhups
"Hello I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC!"

We've come full circle!

~~~
slantyyz
It would be interesting if MS hired John Hodgman and Justin Long for ads in
the same way that Sprint hired Verizon's "can you hear me now" guy.

------
jamesmp98
Unless you are a mobile developer and your clients always want iOS apps.

~~~
izacus
Well, you kinda pegged your fate and future to Apple by choosing to worked
into their locked ecosystem right?

It's not like it was an accidental choice, you knew that you'll have to buy
whatever Apple serves you in whatever form they want as long as you want to
service that platform.

~~~
vaishaksuresh
Last I build a windows phone app, which was ~3 years ago, I needed windows
running on my Mac. With a mac I can build for iOS, Android and WinPhone. With
a Windows box, I cannot build iOS apps. I don't know what is more locked.

~~~
brazzledazzle
That's an interesting way to look at it. Since Microsoft let's you install
Windows on whatever hardware you want clearly macos is more locked down but
due to Apple's lock down you get more flexibility by using a Mac.

------
neals
I was actually planning to switch to OSX last year, but when no new MBP came
out, I opted for a Surface pro 4 instead. Sure am glad I did.

~~~
francisl
Why not a Surface Book. What is your use case?

Programming, design? Oh is the keyboard as a laptop replacement?

------
miahi
What's interesting for me is that nowhere on the site, even when you compare,
configure, or try to buy the Surface Book, is mentioned what kind of "i5" or
"i7" you get (also for GPU). All you can see when you "configure" is something
like "6th Gen Intel Core i7, 1TB SSD, 16GB RAM / dGPU"

~~~
Swinx43
Totally agree. If Microsoft wants to made proper comparisons then they need to
state what CPU it actually is.

The amount of times I have heard people say that a particular notebook is
"Way" cheaper than a MacBook Pro only to point out to them they are comparing
a dual core i7 to a quad core i7 is just ridiculous. When they then look at
quad core i7 notebooks the prices become much closer if not end up being the
same.

~~~
Swinx43
From what I could dig up online the CPU is a i7 Dual Core CPU, which makes
this one VERY expensive dual core laptop at the i7 + 1TB SSD range
([http://pureinfotech.com/surface-book-laptop-technical-
specif...](http://pureinfotech.com/surface-book-laptop-technical-
specifications-pricing-details/))

Granted there is not much information but if the above is correct then you are
better off getting a Dell XPS, at least they run about £1800 for the i7 quad
core with 512SSD.

------
newtorob
Man, it seems everyone is chomping at the bit to take Apple's customers after
that awful keynote.

~~~
ryanSrich
Which is hilarious because they all miss the mark. Winning the
Designer/developer crowd is about applications and software.

~~~
Someone1234
The Adobe Creative Suite is available on Windows. I don't see that being a
major impediment.

And developers keep insisting that all we use is Vim and a terminal, which you
can do just as well with Linux Services for Windows.

~~~
ryanSrich
And if you've ever used CC on Windows the usability difference is night and
day.

CC aside, the designer community is moving towards independent applications.
All of which initially launch on macOS, and in the case of Sketch (a product I
use all day every day) they stay on macOS.

Developing on windows is a nightmare too. I remember the days in college when
I couldn't afford a mac and wanted to do some rails dev on my windows machine.
That was motivation enough to use Ubuntu. That doesn't even cover the fact
that XCode only works on macOS.

~~~
brazzledazzle
That last time I used Photoshop (a couple of versions ago perhaps) it was
exactly the same on each platform and Adobe even used their own GUI widgets so
the look and feel was consistent as well. Screenshots of CC 2016 that I can
find lead me to believe that's still the case. What was the difference you
found in terms of usability?

------
tomtang0514
The image on the top of the page seems to feature a 2nd gen macbook pro (the
one before retina display). Hmm, a bit shady...

~~~
twblalock
You mean the non-retina Macbook Pro that was sold as the base model until last
week?

~~~
anthonybsd
No, he means a macbook from 7 years ago:
[http://www.laptopmag.com/uploadedimages/review/laptops/2009/...](http://www.laptopmag.com/uploadedimages/review/laptops/2009/apple/macbookpro15_4064g.jpg)

Here's a retina one for comparison:
[http://core0.staticworld.net/images/article/2013/10/15in-
rmb...](http://core0.staticworld.net/images/article/2013/10/15in-rmbp-
late2013-gallery-100066854-orig.jpg)

Macbook that Microsoft used in its ad has been discontinued for 3+ years.

~~~
twblalock
No, a non-retina model was sold until last week. It was an older model
originally released in 2012. It was different from the retina models it was
sold alongside. See here: [http://www.macrumors.com/2016/10/27/apple-
discontinues-non-r...](http://www.macrumors.com/2016/10/27/apple-discontinues-
non-retina-macbook-pro/)

------
dluan
I wonder with the sheer number of these kinds of posts, is anyone at Apple
panicking at all?

~~~
orf
Panicking all the way to the bank.

~~~
stcredzero
"Après nous le déluge"

------
Unbeliever69
As an industrial designer, Ux designer, and a programer I have found anything
"Microsoft" (hardware or software) offensive to my sight, taste, touch, ears,
and soul. I'm a Mac user at home and in the office, mainly for application
development. BSD Unix under the hood just makes my life as a programmer feel
more integrated. I'll have to look at the Linux CLI on the Surface and see how
I feel. Most importantly, I love how my Mac just stays out of my way.

I also use Windows at the office for AutoCAD because the Mac version is
inferior to the Windows counterpart. Our machines and OS are modern, but I
want to carve my eyes out with a spork on a daily basis using Windows 10.

THAT BEING SAID, we've got our eyes on the Surface Studio for the boss to use.
We'll see how I feel then. I still have a copy of Adobe Master Collection cs6
that I paid good money for with, no Windows machine to use it on!

~~~
bhauer
For what it's worth, as just a plain user of computers, I personally find
Microsoft's industrial design way more appealing to my sensibility than
Apple's industrial design.

I prefer:

* Smaller radius corners. The Mac and iPhone have always appeared too rounded.

* Less tapering. I like that the Surface Book's contact surface (no pun intended) is basically its entire area (notwithstanding the rubberized feet). I don't like that the Macs taper inward. I think Apple corrected this on the newest MacBook Pro, however.

* Less visual emphasis on the keyboard. I don't like the Mac's dark keys on a silver plane. I prefer that Surface Book's keyboard matches the metal color.

* Less obnoxious branding. I like that the Surface Book has just a reflective Windows logo on the back and no branding on the front. I have never liked the glowing Apple logo on Macs and I applaud Apple for ditching that. But for 2016, they added a big "MacBook Pro" on the bottom edge of the screen which is also tacky.

* This one is a particularly big pet peeve: a chamfered edge for the track-pad that _matches_ the width of the trackpad. I've never understood why the chamfered edge on the MacBook is so narrow. I like not having a sharp edge digging into my wrist even when I am a bit sloppy with my arm positioning.

That's saying nothing of the software. But to be brief on software, I am so
happy that Windows is (slowly) providing a dark look and feel. Applications
that use the latest Microsoft design thinking look great to my eye. Admittedly
they are very slow at bringing old apps up to snuff—there are a number of
legacy apps that still look as they did on Windows 8 or earlier. MacOS has
always looked too "bubbly" to my eye.

My personal laptop is a Surface Book, though I use a workstation for normal
day-to-day work.

------
guelo
If the Surface Book had a 32gb ram option and 7th gen Intel chip it would be
more interesting. As it is, it's pretty much the same specs as the Macs. If
you're a gamer it does have a better GPU option for an extra $200, and if
you're a photographer maybe the SD slot could convince you.

------
emeraldd
My biggest complaint about Windows, from a pure usability stand point, is the
fact that I have yet to find anything close to a functional multi-desktop app.
There used to be something as part of XP powertoys (it performed badly as I
remember it) but I have yet too see anything since then. Ignoring most of the
philosophical issues, that alone makes the platform a non-starter as my daily
driver.

I tend to use desktops to organize tasks or task sets. (one for email, jira,
time tracking. Another for the set the current ticket I'm working on: editor,
browser, logs, query tool, and maybe others for incidentals that pop up:
research, support questions etc...) Mutli-desktop has become my goto technique
for off loading a large chunk of mental state.

~~~
Someone1234
Windows 10 has multi-desktop built right in.

~~~
emeraldd
Well now, I hadn't seen that mentioned anywhere! Interesting ... I'll have to
take another look at win10 then ...

------
huangc10
These types of ads or product pages will only appeal to individual users.
Ineffective.

Try convincing the thousands of companies that have their engineers working on
macbooks. It is way more efficient to have everyone on a team use the same OS
and hardware (for obvious reasons) therefore I don't think Apple is even
phased at all with these Microsoft comparison tactics.

Maybe the ecosystem will change in the next 10 yrs. After all, history does
repeat itself. For now, I'm sticking with my macbook for home and my company
issued macbook for work.

"Turning and turning in the widening gyre".

------
mastermojo
I just. I just really don't want to have to learn powershell =(

~~~
Swinx43
I could not agree more. I make my living using Microsoft tech in the analytics
space and I absolutely HATE powershell.

~~~
brazzledazzle
I don't want to rehash it here since it's been done a few times on HN already
but PowerShell is awesome. I encourage you to search HN for previous
discussions and give PowerShell another shot. The old windows command prompt
definitely took away some of its appeal when I first tried it so I can
understand why some folks have a distaste for it. First impressions and all
that. But it's extremely powerful compared to bash or other "string passing"
shells.

Of course if you use it regularly and hate it you can safely ignore what I
just said. I'd be curious as to what you hate about it though.

------
klagermkii
If I can't get 32GB of RAM on the Surface Book either, then I'll blame it on
Intel for now and hope it's an option in the next MacBook Pro.

------
H4CK3RM4N
$1499 (minimum surface-book pricing) Surface - "6th generation core i5"(no
mention of clock speed), 128GB SSD, 8GB ram(no mention of speed), Touch
Screen, Whatever the fuck they call their shitty excuse to build a facial
recognition database MacBook Pro - 2GHz i5, 256GB SSD, 8GB 1866MHz RAM, Intel
Iris 540 graphics (at least twice as many GFLOPS as the HD graphics), trackpad
w/force touch and good drivers, unlock w/ Apple Watch.

1999(highest price before MacBooks go 15 inch, for a bit less you can
sacrifice 256GB storage and get a dGPU on the Surface)

Surface - "6th generation core i5"(no mention of clock speed), 256GB SSD, 8GB
ram(no mention of speed), Touch Screen, Whatever the fuck they call their
shitty excuse to build a facial recognition database Seriously, literally the
only thing to change for this model appears to be the SSD.

MacBook Pro - 2.9GHz i5, 512GB SSD, 8GB 2133MHz RAM, Intel Iris 550 graphics
(at least twice as many GFLOPS as the HD graphics), trackpad w/force touch and
good drivers, unlock w/ Apple Watch, touch bar and Touch ID(w/their secure
enclave so the NSA can't log your fingerprint)

After that it just becomes unfair because the MacBooks become 15 inch and
their dGPU has 2GB memory instead of the Surface's 1GB(which is the only
actual spec I can find on the surfaces graphics)

------
davidcollantes
For me, the OS is a deal breaker. If I could run--legally--macOS on Surfaces,
it would be an easier switch. The saying that you marry the bride's family
applies: nice hardware, got to buy into Windows too. I don't want it.

------
AlphaWeaver
I have been beyond satisfied with my new Surface Book... no issues whatsoever.

------
orf
I've got a 2015 Macbook Pro and I'm sorely tempted to get a Surface when/if it
breaks down. The detachable screen is a gamechanger, but it's still a bit
small (12.3") for my taste.

~~~
Spooks
It seems like the new ones have 13.5 inch screens.

[https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msca/en_CA/pdp/Surface-...](https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msca/en_CA/pdp/Surface-
Book/productID.5077253600?icid=HP-SurfaceBook-LTH-110116-MSCA-en_CA)

------
aantix
But... I work on open source. Does Windows 10 have POSIX compatibility?

------
anthonybsd
I love how they use an image of a 7 year old macbook in the ad to make surface
thickness look good in comparison. Look at that bezel - it's a pre-retina,
circa 2009 :)

------
evo_9
I remember not long ago when it was Apple running Switch to Mac ads trying to
get Windows users to buy Macs. Funny how things have changed.

------
jaxondu
Find it strange I can't locate the screen size of the Surface Book on this
comparison page. Have to go to Tech Spec page.

~~~
Someone1234
Because they're both the same. Both are 13" machines.

If you hit "COMPARE SURFACE DEVICES" on that page you'll get detailed specs.

------
sidcool
How would the pen and surface dial fit in software development workflow?

~~~
farnsworth
I have used the pen for drawing diagrams and stuff plenty of times. I can't
think of anything to do with the dial though.

------
globuous
How old is that MBP on the first picture ?

------
icinnamon
I like that Microsoft is making an effort to capture the audience that wasn't
impressed by Apple's MBP launch, but I can't get over their comparison chart.

They compare the _main screen_ of the Surface to the _lower screen_ (touch
bar) of the MBP. That's just a shady comparison. At least be honest.

~~~
MattSteelblade
I don't believe that's the comparison they're making. It's trying (and
failing) to say that the Surface has the higher screen resolution. It's not
making a comparison to the touch bar at all.

~~~
icinnamon
To clarify, I meant they are comparing the resolution of the main screen to
the touch bar.

But they are trying to make it look like they are comparing the two devices'
screens. Definitely misleading.

