
Burnout, stress lead more companies to try a four-day work week - joeyespo
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-world-work-fourdayweek/burnout-stress-lead-more-companies-to-try-a-four-day-work-week-idUSKBN1OG0GY
======
beat
When talking about this, I usually mention the utility cost vs straight cost.
Not all hours are created equal! How many employees are as productive on
friday as they are on tuesday? The employer may be losing 20% of the hours,
but maybe only 10% of the productivity. I could see this actually breaking
even, as employees rested from their three-day weekends become ever more
productive.

And it's a _tremendous_ hiring and retention perk, at least as long as it's
not standard practice. "Work for us, and you get three day weekends every
week!" And that turns into "So, recruiter, does this new gig you're trying to
hire me for offer a four day workweek? No? Well okay then, bye."

------
cpuguy83
It's not the number of days but the constant fire drills, everything is always
top priority, notifications coming at all hours... and at least with software
dev very rarely is it a priority to fix poor quality things thereby making
even more fire drills.

~~~
twblalock
If fire drills are the norm rather than the exception, you should find another
job because you are working at a poorly run company.

There is always a tension between delivering features and delivering quality,
but that's no excuse for constant fire drills and notifications. It's possible
to handle the tradeoff better than that.

~~~
anoncoward111
Agree with you, but it's physically impossible for all developers to merely
find a better job. Some can, but not all can, because of the limited number of
companies out there.

As a result, we really should force employers to treat us better rather than
viewing us as replaceable. They also need to learn that their way shouldn't be
the only way.

~~~
fhbdukfrh
How do you force employers to treat you better, some sort of artificial
regulation?

We've never had greater labor mobility, remote options or demand for software
developers; I question your premise of limited number of companies.

~~~
anoncoward111
I definitely see where you are coming from, and I personally wouldn't
recommend "formal" actions like regulation or unionization.

I've been considering my options lately and the more I think about it, the
more I hear "contracting" as one of the better ways to make liveable money
without losing control over your working conditions + dialogue with client(s).

When you have constant, daily interaction with middle managers who are trying
to become VPs or whatever, it can be extremely grating. Workplace politics,
policies, and appearances are all created by these people so that they can
protect their jobs and future bonuses.

So, perhaps consulting + contracting will create a barrier between you and the
middle managers. They're forced to work with you more collaboratively because
the CEO signs the checks on this one (hopefully), not the individual
department you work for.

But yeah, out of the thousands of corporations and startups of all ages,
industries, and sizes, I bet only 10% or less have an efficient, enjoyable,
and equitable experience between low-ranking employees and their layers of
management.

That's what is causing all the job-hopping and attempts to "trade-up" ;)

~~~
badpun
For contractors in large companies, it's exactly those middle managers who
sign the check. What's worse, the contracts are usually 6-12 months, and these
guys decide if they'll be extended for another period. They also decide what
the rate on the contract will be. So in reality, you need to pay at least as
much attention to these guys (and internal politics, power struggles and all
other bs) as a regular employee.

------
itamarst
If you're thinking "but my employer will never do this", there's another
alternative: you can negotiate.

As an existing employee you are hugely valuable, you know how things work, the
tech stack, the business, who to talk to... Replacing that is hard. So you
have a good negotiating position.

It's also possible to negotiate for a shorter workweek at new jobs, though
it's more difficult.

I've done this at 3 different companies, and you'll see in the comments here
that others have as well. E.g. I interviewed one programmer who has been
working 4 days a week for 15 years:
[https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/01/08/part-time-
programmer...](https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/01/08/part-time-programmer/)

And if you want to learn how to do this but aren't sure where to begin, I've
condensed my experience and research into a book:
[https://codewithoutrules.com/3dayweekend/](https://codewithoutrules.com/3dayweekend/)

------
mark_l_watson
For decades, I almost always worked four days a week, 32 hours/week total.
Since I was working for mostly large companies, I didn’t make any sort of
special deal to do this, I simply took a 20% pay cut. Well worth it. Looking
back over the last 35 years, I don’t regret working less at all, with the
extra time off spent with friends and family, and giving me time to write
several books.

~~~
godDLL
I could never negotiate that, so I quit the industry after 10-ish years and
went into "leaner life-style, honest day's work" type of deal. Best thing I
did with my life.

Oh, and Wim Hof breathing. Just the breathing, for now.

~~~
combatentropy
I'm curious what kind of job you got after quitting the tech industry. Maybe
I'll try it some day. :)

~~~
godDLL
I go up a rope or down a rope to trim/take down a tree, sometimes to do some
construction work. Industrial alpinism.

------
maxxxxx
I have worked at a company where we had a mandatory 35 hours week and I
definitely feel that less working hours leads to a more disciplined workplace
where less time is being wasted. At that company we actually worked during
work hours whereas in my current company we spend a lot of time in meetings
and other interruptions so I think I actually work less time than 35 hours.

~~~
toomuchtodo
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law)

"Parkinson's law is the adage that "work expands so as to fill the time
available for its completion". It is sometimes applied to the growth of
bureaucracy in an organization. This law is likely derived from ideal gas law,
whereby a gas expands to fit the volume allotted."

------
tareqak
I've thought about this idea quite a lot and shared it with a bunch of people.
I've found that having that third day off (taking it as a vacation day to
experiment) definitely helps me personally when it is adjacent to the weekend
(e.g. Friday or Monday). However, I can totally see the need for having this
third day be in the middle of the week to break up the week (e.g. Wednesday)
or help with things like doing chores and getting to appointments when other
people are working, but you're not. As a result, I think the third day off is
most useful when you get to pick which day it is according to your particular
circumstances.

I know having the day be flexible adds additional complexity, and even the
risk of it not being taken / pressured into not taking, but I think it adds
the most utility for everyone.

~~~
snarf21
True but there is no reason you can't do Wednesday > Friday > Wednesday every
other week to give people a mix of three days off and a day during the week to
do errands that are harder to do on the weekends.

~~~
tareqak
I guess you could have a default day or default rotation (e.g. your Wednesday
> Friday > Wednesday every other week) and then negotiate for one of the other
days in lieu of the default when it makes things more convenient.

------
alexashka
It'd help to avoid lumping all jobs into a single pile and proceeding to
suggest a planet-wide remedy.

A software developer has different needs from a convenience store employee. I
hope that's obvious.

I don't understand why this is even on HackerNews, because this article
contains no news at all. It's just pandering to those who feel that working
fewer hours is a good idea for them, nothing more.

ps. if you're in a job that involves using your brain, you're not working more
than 3-4 hours/day max. Maybe when there's basic income, we can start having
honest conversations about how people actually work in software.

~~~
aviv
> ps. if you're in a job that involves using your brain, you're not working
> more than 3-4 hours/day max

This (not necessarily the quoted part, more so the article concept in general)
is non-sense. People don't work _enough_. The problem is not the long hours,
it's that people no longer have the stamina (mental, physical and emotional)
to sustain a long work cycle so they think they "burn out".

~~~
adetrest
> so they think they "burn out".

Do you not believe burnout is real? If so, I hope you never find out, because
it is very real and sucks a lot.

------
onetimemanytime
I have a feeling that if you can _work_ 5-6 hours a day you've more than
earned your salary. So, if a company can figure it out and let thew workers
stay at home instead of browsing the internet at "work" more power to them.

~~~
_RPM
So then I have confirmed it. I read about browsing the internet and generally
no one working 8 hours a day it they work in software. Some days I literally
don’t have work to do, so I browse the internet. Sometimes it’s nice to work
on tasks around the home if I am working from home that day.

Management must know this. I consider it an unwritten/not talked about fact of
working as a software developer.

~~~
scarejunba
Why would you bother staying at work if you have nothing to do. Take your
laptop home and VPN for OC issues if that’s why.

But I can’t unders how you can have nothing to do. If you feel like doing
nothing, that I understand. Some days just don’t work. But having nothing to
do is quite surprising.

~~~
_RPM
I like to work from home when there isn’t much work to do, so then I can have
my laptop.

It’s common for us to have a code freeze, where we do not have any items in
our backlog.

~~~
scarejunba
Perhaps have release branches and hotfix there, merging into master? May be a
more enjoyable development cycle.

~~~
_RPM
Unfortunately we only branch on release. We don’t have separate branches.
Consider it as everyone working on master, and no merges m, just code reviews.

------
combatentropy
From the article: "companies around the world that have cut their work week
have found that it leads to higher productivity".

I'm disappointed that the article does not even explore the question, at what
point does productivity decrease? It says that going from 5 to 4 days brought
about an increase. The natural question is, what would happen if you went to
3? To 2? 1?

Certainly at 0 days per week, productivity will decrease. And I know it will
be a long time before even a 4-day week is the norm. But at least as an
academic exercise, why is no one asking the question? What is the fewest
number of hours per week that yields the same amount of productivity as 40?
(Such a study would have use averages, of course.)

------
adrianmonk
Another thing a lot of companies could try is a five-day work week.

------
sys_64738
I only get stressed when I'm forced to attend stupid meetings. Without
meetings a 4 days week would be doable for everybody.

~~~
fhbdukfrh
Well it may seem obvious, but work to eliminate "stupid" meetings. Hold people
to scheduled start times and time limits. Push hard for agendas and stick to
them. Question the need for meetings you think are redundant or unnecessary.

Or do you mean meetings in general?

------
perfunctory
Many people seem to believe it's hard/impossible to negotiate 4 day work week.
Your negotiation position might be stronger than you think. Give it a try. Get
creative. Approach it as you would a coding problem. Read a book about
negotiations.

I have worked 4 days or less for about a decade now. Well worth it.

------
AltruisticGap
Monday morning off sounds like an awful idea.

First off, even when I lack sleep, I'll function better in the morning if I
force myself out of bed, and I'll have a big slump in the afternoon.

If I sleep in instead to supposedly catch up sleep, I'll do OK.. but I won't
feel any better in the afternoon.. I'll be a little off because of getting up
late.

Secondly, afternoons are more depressing. I'd rather get out of bed, do a
monday morning and then go home. It's really depressing in the winter, to
leave work when it's already night outside. :/

But really screw "monday mornings" off, give me a monday off or nothing.

edit: not to mention the most obvious... people with long commutes coming to
work for a few hours... really dumb.

~~~
assblaster
I function by trying to work 7 days a week, without taking time off for
vacation. What I've found is that I'm in general much happier having to wake
up at a specific time every day with specific work goals.

I feel like I'm in a sweet equilibrium with fewer disruptions from going on
and off vacation. I make more money, I'm happier at home and work, and I feel
better all around.

~~~
parthdesai
Don't take this the wrong way, but do you have like doing other things apart
from programming? I couldn't imagine going in to work 7 days a week for the
entire year which would mean i won't be able to go ski, travel, play soccer
league, go camping, hiking etc..

~~~
assblaster
I'm not a programmer. My job has different hour requirements than a typical
salaried position.. Sometimes I work 4 hours one day, sometimes 20+ hours. The
variability is exciting, almost like a slot machine, some days I get lucky and
have a lot of work all day which means more money to spend, other days the
work isn't there and I go home by noon (which I consider also being lucky) to
play with the kids, work on home projects, go shopping, hang out with wife,
watch Netflix/YouTube.

I have gotten so much enjoyment from work and the income it generates that I
have decided to put my major hobbies/travel on hold. Maybe if tax law changes
in the future punish me for high productivity, then I might cut back and do
more non job activities.

I would imagine it is hard for a programmer to maintain this schedule because
the pay isn't on the same basis as mine (eat what you kill versus salary).
However, certain other aspects of a 7 day workweek apply to being a
programmer: if you get tired and don't want to continue working, you can just
go home and work on it the next day. No Friday crunch time. No pre vacation
crunch time. Every day is more relaxed because you just took two major
deadlines off your schedule: Fridays and vacations.

------
watwut
If people are burning out and stressed, then 4 vs 5 days is not issue, but
rather total number of hours and overall conditions.

~~~
johnward
Like me having 20 days worth of vacation but being looked at sideways when I
actually try to use them. Giving me more days won't solve the issue.

------
kgwxd
I don't think this would help a ton in tech. The people that get burned out
the hardest can't stop thinking about work if they're on the clock or not.
They'll just have another day to stress about not getting stuff done or how
much more they'll have to do when they get back.

------
jklepatch
This is going in the right direction :)

Funnily enough, decades ago when France introduced the 35h workweek the world
(and in particular the US and UK) ridiculed France for it and berated the
(supposed) laziness of French people.

~~~
thr0w__4w4y
Brit by birth, and I've never visited France, so take this with a grain of
salt, but:

I've worked with many Japanese, German and British engineers who have worked
with French engineers (in France, often as "ex pats"), and these guys never
complained about France's 35 hour work week. They did, however, complain about
the (this is my summary, from memory) excessive smoking breaks, longer
lunches, casual attitude towards work, and (yes, sorry for the stereotype) a
good amount of lost time talking about women in the office they'd like to
bang.

I don't know. The 2 French engineers I've worked with have been fine, but that
was on U.K. soil... maybe on the home field it's different?

My wife, who's American but both parents are French, says that the French
generally have an inferiority complex but over-compensate by shit-talking
other European countries and the U.S. I don't think I've experienced this
personally, although I'm in tech and she's not, so maybe in her world that is
more common (or maybe she's wrong? dunno)

------
austincheney
Less work would not solve the problem for me. I enjoy solving problems and
creating tools. I like it so much I do it outside of work and possibly inside
when I have nothing else to do.

What I find stressful is stupid people. This really burns me out. I can
understand a lack of experience and mistakes in code. We are always learning
and in need of mentorship.

What I can’t stand are cowardly people who aren’t learning. These are people
who refuse to write original code to save their lives, or their careers. It
seems common to avoid code by hoping some Maven or NPM package will easily do
your job for you. These are the people who need multiple frameworks and 10mb
of dependency code for what could be accomplished in about 12 lines of
original code. It’s a hatred of craftsmanship. These people make me hate
coding and life in general.

------
rationalfaith
As long as you're productive and meeting deadlines, I couldn't care less about
the "hours" you're in the office.

Also, the market well balance itself. If someone is more productive they'll be
rewarded more.

I just don't want the "equal outcome" crowd to start enforcing equal pay when
most of them are clocking in minimum hours and others are over-delivering.

This is for merit based companies, which personally I can't fathom non-merit
based ones.

~~~
maxxxxx
"Also, the market well balance itself. If someone is more productive they'll
be rewarded more."

I don't think that's true at all. If you don't spend significant amounts of
time on self promotion you will not get rewarded but taken for granted.

~~~
hire_charts
In one of my early jobs out of college I had a manager who really got this. He
knew I was getting my work done, so our 1:1's turned more into career
coaching, and his focus was almost always around improving my "visibility"
within the org. Looking back, it's hard to say whether he was genuinely
interested in helping me get promoted, or if he just wanted to improve his own
visibility by proxy, but either way it worked, and the lesson stuck with me.

~~~
fhbdukfrh
That's how good managers should be measured though, by the success of their
charges

