
Toyota Finally Has the Power in Electric Cars - clouddrover
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-22/toyota-panasonic-battery-venture-is-an-electric-car-power-shift
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syntaxing
I've been waiting for one of the big Japanese automaker to make a reputable
electric car. I'm hopeful for 2020 especially after Toyota announced that
they're joining NVIDIA's DRIVE. An electric car that has Level 2 self driving
capabilities and 200 mile range under $30000 would be awesome.

~~~
throwaway12iii
The biggest selling electric car is from Japan. The Nissan leaf.

Yes, you used the weasel word "reputable" \- but what better reputation is
there than having the most sales? Nissan from Japan sells the most electric
cars.

Apart from sales, the Nissan Leaf scores 7-8/10 and 4/5 from the critics.
Which is around the same as the Tesla model 3.

If the critics think they are ok, and they sell the most of all electric
cars... then they can be considered reputable.

~~~
technofiend
He also mentioned a 200 mile range, which the Leaf is still working towards;
Nissan's website clearly states the latest Leaf has a 150 mile range [1]. I've
been lusting after all electric cars for a while including the Leaf but range
is definitely a concern.

Kudos to Tesla for breaking open the market and creating all electric cars
with 200+ mile range. But I'm with the original poster in that I want 200+
miles and a quality product with no fit and finish issues or supply-chain
problems when there's a breakdown. Tesla has one of three right now and
eventually the majors will catch up.

[1] [https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-
cars/leaf/range-...](https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-
cars/leaf/range-charging.html)

~~~
andrewmunsell
For anyone interetsed, the Leaf E-Plus is coming within the next couple months
with a 200 mile range: [https://insideevs.com/leaf-e-plus-nissan-
joins-200-mile-club...](https://insideevs.com/leaf-e-plus-nissan-
joins-200-mile-club/)

There's still no active battery cooling though, which is a disappointment.

~~~
technofiend
Particularly in hot climates there's concern both around battery performance
and actual range. Practically speaking you need to factor in climate control
use when driving, which lowers range.

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MikeCapone
Toyota has squandered its huge lead in hybrids and is now quite late to EVs.
I'm glad to see them make these moves, but this should've happened over 10
years ago. These things take time.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Toyota has squandered its huge lead in hybrids and is now quite late to EVs.

Toyota is somewhat late to _battery powered_ pure EVs (ignoring the limited
RAV4 EV contemporary to the GM EV1 and Honda EV+), because they were heavily
invested both hybrids, including PHEVs, and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. OTOH,
other than advanced battery tech, they aren't late to anything involved in
battery-powered pure EVs (PHEVs have a superset of the needs of pure EVs, and
fuel cell vehicles are pure EVs), but that's just a matter of making a deal
with Panasonic, which they've done now, per the story—their competitors don't
have exclusive special sauce here.

~~~
rcMgD2BwE72F
They made a deal with Panasonic for quite a small % of their production
(Chinese brands only)

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rcMgD2BwE72F
AFAIK, the Panasonic deal is only to Chinese Toyota subsidiaries. Toyota still
does not intend to manufacture battery electric vehicles and still pretend the
auto market will fully switch to hydrogen first (as crazy as it sounds).

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daddylonglegs
Last year there were reports that the Tesla/Panasonic batteries in the Tesla
Model 3 contained much less cobalt and that this was a significant competitive
advantage for Tesla. Does anyone know if the enabling technology is Tesla's
(or exclusive to Tesla through their agreement with Panasonic)? If not, will
this be available to Toyota for use in their cars?

~~~
gamblor956
It will not be a competitive advantage for Tesla and the low-cobalt cells will
be available to Toyota.

Panasonic makes and designs the cells (the part with the cobalt), Tesla just
arranges those cells into a battery (adds control systems, cooling, framing
etc.)

~~~
rcMgD2BwE72F
> It will not be a competitive advantage for Tesla and the low-cobalt cells
> will be available to Toyota.

source?

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Neil44
Strange that Toyota were so early with the hybrid cars, the Prius came out
over 20 years ago. But they are now behind with full BEV's. Hydrogen just
hasn't got the momentum at the moment.

~~~
rcMgD2BwE72F
>Strange that Toyota were so early with the hybrid cars, the Prius came out
over 20 years ago.

[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/compliance_car](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/compliance_car)

------
danw1979
I used to think the Hybrid Synergy Drive in the Prius and other Toyota hybrids
was a fancy name for an electric motor bolted onto the gearbox of a regular
ICE car. I’ve owned several Prii over many years.

For those interested here’s a great video explaining how it really works. It
blew my mind...

[https://youtu.be/E_xCssR8qQI](https://youtu.be/E_xCssR8qQI)

------
_bxg1
Really glad we're shedding our dependence on Tesla to shoulder the future of
the electric car industry. This is probably the single most important anti-
climate-change measure the world is taking right now, and it'd be a shame if
it lost steam because of Elon's breakdown. But I think Tesla managed to get
the snowball rolling just in time.

~~~
advertising
Bill's stat on how many gas powered cars would need to be taken off the road
(exchanged for electric) to equal the emissions of a single coal plant blew my
mind.

[https://mobile.twitter.com/billgates/status/1052914693042450...](https://mobile.twitter.com/billgates/status/1052914693042450432?lang=en)

~~~
_bxg1
That is eye-opening, although:

> even if clean energy supplied all the power, over 1.5 million people would
> still have to switch

So it does factor in the current state of electricity-generation, which makes
a big difference. I guess the way I've always looked at it is, the energy
industry has a big head start (and much more flexibility) in moving to clean
sources than cars do. It's _really_ hard to:

1) Create a cultural change for billions of individual people

2) Replace the infrastructure of fueling stations

3) Create the technologies to make electric motors and storage feasible on a
moving platform, where space and weight are at a premium

Each of those things has its own powerful network-effect holding it in place.
While not _easy_ per say, I think the energy sector has much more opportunity
to branch out. If you want to try out clean nuclear energy, you just decide to
make your next plant a nuclear one.

I honestly think one of Tesla's greatest contributions to the world - on par
with its battery innovations - was making electric cars "cool". I think this
was the core genius behind Musk's business plan. Much as we'd like to think
otherwise, car culture in America has always been one of the greatest barriers
to adoption of non-fossil-fuel vehicles; in the past, hybrids and electrics
have always been boxy nerd-wagons. Elon said, "let's start with an exotic
sports car". He broke that most entrenched of barriers and I think that's what
really got the ball rolling.

------
Scoundreller
Assuming drivers have access to plug-in charging, I doubt the large-scale need
for 150 mile+ ranges, or even 100.

There will be a market for short-duration exchanges between ICE and short-
range electric car owners for long trips.

Or just rentals of long-range vehicles (or trunk-battery-packs) for those with
short-range vehicles that meet 99% of their needs.

~~~
WorldMaker
Or an increased demand for long-range travel systems such as airplanes, buses,
railroads, and/or zeppelins. America has fetishized the long distance road
trip for a long time, but it's not the only way to travel.

------
dpflan
How big of a deal is this? How will battery technology be impacted? What did
Tesla's open-sharing of their patents do to the landscape?

------
deagle50
Call me when there's an affordable Tesla alternative with RWD/AWD. Torque
steer is bad enough with ICEs.

------
sabujp
range isn't even a concern, make them charge in 10 mins please! I'd be fine
having a car that can go ~100mi but can charge in a short time and have a
battery that will hold those specs for at least 7 years

~~~
masklinn
> range isn't even a concern, make them charge in 10 mins please!

Range absolutely is a concern. I've pretty much no use for a car which only
goes 100mi but don't mind overnight charging in the slightest. I'm waiting for
EVs to do 600 miles on a charge at highway speed, with heating and/or AC.

~~~
cptskippy
You're going to be waiting a long time. EVs do not perform well at highways
speeds so your ask is ridiculous. A 600 mile range use-case is a boundary
condition at best as there are few ICE vehicles that can even achieve that. EV
aren't going to eliminate the need for ICE vehicles but they should easily be
able to accommodate 90-95% of the market.

The biggest barrier to EV adoption currently is people incorrectly thinking
they need a 200-300 mile range since that's what their ICE vehicle currently
gets.

We're a two car family and when we got the Leaf it was initially my commuter
car (~25 miles one way) but quickly became our primary vehicle. We still had
an ICE vehicle that was also used as a commuter but we ceased using it almost
entirely beyond that. Last fall we sold our ICE vehicle and bought another EV
and our lives have been so much better for it. Our biggest concerns now are
how to transport lumber home from the home center as we no longer have a
junker.

~~~
masklinn
> You're going to be waiting a long time. EVs do not perform well at highways
> speeds so your ask is ridiculous.

That means they don't perform period, ICE don't magically avoid aerodynamic
drag.

> A 600 mile range use-case is a boundary condition at best as there are few
> ICE vehicles that can even achieve that.

Every ICE I've driven was able to achieve around that level. A 200~300mi range
is what's ridiculous(ly low). The best car I've had could exceed 850 at
60~65mph.

~~~
cptskippy
> That means they don't perform period, ICE don't magically avoid aerodynamic
> drag.

It has more to do with the transmission. Most EVs are more aerodynamic than
ICEVs but still suffer at high speeds because they lack a transmission and
thus require more power to maintain high engine RPMs. An ICE in comparison has
a transmission to reduce the RPMs at high speeds.

> Every ICE I've driven was able to achieve around that level.

That's fine but not everyone needs that range. On a daily basis most people do
not travel more than 100 miles. Even the slowest L1 charger can put 60 miles
of range on an EV overnight plugged into a regular outlet. An L2 charger using
a 30a outlet, found in most laundry rooms, can do ~20 miles an hour.

Every two car family where one person has a commute of less than 100 miles
round trip would be just fine with an EV equivalent to a Nissan Leaf.

~~~
masklinn
> It has more to do with the transmission. Most EVs are more aerodynamic than
> ICEVs but still suffer at high speeds because they lack a transmission and
> thus require more power to maintain high engine RPMs. An ICE in comparison
> has a transmission to reduce the RPMs at high speeds.

Still a distinction without a difference.

> That's fine but not everyone needs that range.

Of course not, I quite specifically mentioned that it was my specific
requirement in the original comment.

> Every two car family where one person has a commute of less than 100 miles
> round trip would be just fine with an EV equivalent to a Nissan Leaf.

Good for you. A leaf still is of little use to me. Even if the infrastructure
were in place, which it is not.

