
Leaving Google - blearyeyed
https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/02/19/Leaving-Google
======
habosa
For those who don't know, Tim Bray was one of the original inventors of the
XML spec and has been a Developer Advocate at Google for a while.

Shame to see him go, I am joining DevRel at Google in the fall and I thought
it was awesome to have someone as experience as Tim working kinda-sorta-near
me. Hopefully he goes on to do something great.

~~~
rasur
Implying XML is not great? ;)

~~~
ithkuil
Great men make great mistakes :-)

------
Patrick_Devine
As someone who moved to the Bay Area from Vancouver, it definitely was a bit
of a shock. In Vancouver you're very used to seeing white people work in low
income jobs, and that just doesn't happen a lot here.

Calling the Bay Area congested, incestuous and overpriced compared to
Vancouver is a little like the pot calling the kettle black, however. Yes,
transit is a million times better in Vancouver. Yes, the cycling
infrastructure is at least twice as good as SF and the peninsula. But try
driving to or from North Vancouver during rush hour and you will experience
some world class congestion.

The recent run-up in housing prices, particularly on the west side of
Vancouver, where people have speculated in the housing market has left that
part of the city half vacant. It's the same thing you see in London; wealthy
foreigners come in, buy a place and use it for only a few weeks/months of the
year. It totally wrecks communities.

That said, yeah, I still love Vancouver, but I love working in tech. If you're
a software engineer, you really ought to be living in the Bay Area. There's no
other place like it.

~~~
robbyking
If you don't see white people working low-income jobs in SF, you need to get
out and explore. Nearly everyone working retails jobs in the Castro, Noe
Valley, Hayes Valley, and a half dozen other neighborhoods is white.

~~~
Patrick_Devine
Sure, but go back into the kitchen of any restaurant, or hang out and talk to
the cleaning staff and I can almost guarantee you that you won't see any white
people, unless you're talking to management or the chef.

------
psbp
Cache:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vUUVmJE...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vUUVmJEowEEJ:https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/02/19/Leaving-
Google+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

------
skywhopper
As someone who works 97% remotely from a mostly-colocated office, I have to
agree that it's a terribly inefficient way to work. If _everyone_ were remote,
it could probably work, but if it's just one or two out of a dozen or a
hundred, it's very difficult.

On balance, my current job is still the best choice for me, but there's a
constant background of frustration mostly surrounding communication failures.

~~~
jjwiseman
In my experience, teams or companies that have significant problems
communicating with remote workers just aren't very good communicators.
Physical proximity is a crutch that can help them overcome their
disability/dysfunction, but they almost always still have major communication
problems--they just have more problems with remote employees.

A team that's good at communicating with remote employees is usually just good
at communication in general.

~~~
skywhopper
Oh, I definitely agree. Certainly my employer has plenty of communications
problems. But whatever communications roadblocks exist are amplified tenfold
from 800 miles away.

------
MrZongle2
I thought this was interesting: "Now you can say it: Google is actually evil,
right? · I don’t think so; but get back to me later. I shouldn’t write too
much about Google in-the-large until I’ve got more perspective."

At best, it sounds like he's a bit doubtful of Google's white-hat status but
is trying to remain professional, doesn't have a specific incident to point
to, or both.

It will be interesting to see what he says in a year or so.

~~~
jypku
You're interpreting things too literally.

------
typicalrunt
On the topic of living costs for Vancouver, coincidentally enough WorkSafeBC
(Vancouver's version of OSHA) just released a cost of living calculator for
the BC region. You can see that housing will eat up the majority of your
paycheque for an average wage (maybe not rockstar IT devs) [1].

[http://www.costofliving.welcomebc.ca/](http://www.costofliving.welcomebc.ca/)

[1] Median family income in BC is $69,150 as of 2011. Source:
[http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-
som/l01/cst01/f...](http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-
som/l01/cst01/famil108a-eng.htm)

~~~
ChuckMcM
Interesting that the median price for a detached single family home in
Vancouver is now $929,700 [1] and in Santa Clara county (which is San Jose and
the cities around it) is "only" $754,400 [2], of course a house in San
Francisco is like over a million dollars.

[1] [http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/house-prices-still-rising-
in...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/house-prices-still-rising-in-toronto-
vancouver-1.2524167)

[2] [http://www.zillow.com/santa-clara-county-ca/home-
values/](http://www.zillow.com/santa-clara-county-ca/home-values/)

~~~
typicalrunt
$929,000 in Vancouver means the east side, which is traditionally the lower
priced and income area of Vancouver. If you want anything close to downtown or
the West side, it is well over $1.5M.

A lot of detached homes in Vancouver at the $900k price range look like they
are in bad condition and reflect the land value. So while it is expensive to
purchase at $900k+, consider the renovations that will be needed to bring the
house up to a livable condition.

~~~
dmunoz
> A lot of detached homes in Vancouver at the $900k price range look like they
> are in bad condition and reflect the land value.

So much so, that a game has been made about this, Crack Shack or Mansion [0].

[0]
[http://www.crackshackormansion.com/index.html](http://www.crackshackormansion.com/index.html)

------
drawkbox
Google not able to get remote working working? Seems flawed that a system
requires everyone to move to one location to work, and a broken system that
lives on from the past (why take hours of employees days commuting?). There
are times when that is needed, there are other times when that is bad and
external insight is easier remotely.

Yahoo and possibly Google doing this, leading to more congestion in the Bay
Area, and not spreading the innovation around to other cities. Google can do
better.

Maybe their next move is a Costco sized open office where everyone can sit
right next to one another, no need for Hangouts.

~~~
syntern
The problem is not that they couldn't, but they wouldn't. Most of the large
bay area companies believe that there is more value in the chit-chat and
overheard conversations at the micro kitchen, than in solving the remote work
problems.

~~~
scelerat
Most of my work is remote and yet I agree with this. It's part of the reason I
visit the office at least once a week, despite a 2-hour commute. There is
value in casual conversation. Work topics can be raised in informal ways.
People share more of their personal lives and come to know each other better,
fostering understanding and relieving some of the tension that can arise from
misunderstood or poorly-worded emails.

Working remotely requires a lot of attention to relationships in ways and over
channels that most people aren't accustomed to. It can be difficult even for
people who are very good at it. I enjoy working remotely but I value the
personal face-to-face time I get with co-workers very highly.

------
aridiculous
I visited Seattle and Vancouver for the first time recently.

I was surprised at how similar they were. I was expecting Vancouver to be a
lot different than it was. Vancouver was even more high-rise, glass-
everything, gated-community than Seattle. I spoke with the locals who informed
me that was Vancouver's MO, and if I wanted a culturally interesting Canadian
city, I should head over to Toronto.

~~~
randallsquared
Is "culturally interesting" code for dirty and run down? ;)

~~~
potatolicious
Only in the USA. One of the fundamental differences between Canada and the US
is that ethnic diversity and immigration do not immediately imply poverty.

Visit Toronto sometime. _Tons_ of ethnic enclaves that are legitimately
interesting, and not in the "look at how the poor people live!" way - solidly
middle class and not at all run-down.

In my experience in the US "ethnic enclave", "culturally interesting",
"racially vibrant" more often than not really _is_ code for dirty and run
down.

~~~
tptacek
There's a reason for that: the legacy of slavery for African Americans, and
the massive continuous immigration of low- wage- earning latinos.

Vietnamese and Indian neighborhoods in the US don't tend to be run down. For
that matter, there are middle-class black enclaves. They're just not as
noticeable as the huge poor black neighborhoods.

------
sshconnection
While there are plenty of perfectly valid reasons to not want to move to the
bay area, I'm not sure that I would list exceptionally pervasive racism among
them.

------
psbp
"Plus I find the Bay Area congested, racist, incestuous, and overpriced."

I like this guy.

~~~
haberman
I'm a little sad he didn't say anything about Seattle, only a couple hours
from Vancouver and with sizable and thriving Google offices. It is also has
"greens and greys and unfussily variegated people" \-- clearly it's not
Canada, but in general it would be a much less drastic transition!

~~~
eevilspock
Vancouver is a real city.

Seattle is provincial, passive-aggressive, unfriendly to outsiders, and
segregated. A hick town with skyscrapers as I've often called it. Californians
who've moved there almost unanimously agree with my first sentence, and crack
up at the latter.

(Sadly, I lived in Seattle for 17 years. The Bay Area before that, and New
York now.)

~~~
haberman
> Vancouver is a real city.

That's not very nice.

> Seattle is provincial, passive-aggressive, unfriendly to outsiders, and
> segregated. A hick town with skyscrapers as I've often called it.

Sorry you didn't enjoy it here. Every city has its ups and downs, but a lot of
people (myself included) love it. It's beautiful, we are surrounded by nature,
we have the best summers of anywhere I've ever been, I find the people
friendly (if a bit passive), there's a great classical music scene (this is
how I spend my time), a great university in the middle of the city, lots of
tech employment opportunities, a housing market that isn't insane.

I like SF and New York (and Vancouver!) a lot, but they have their own
problems too.

~~~
ulfw
I must say I had a wonderful time in Seattle. I found the people a ton more
friendly, approachable and varied than in the Bay Area, where everyone is just
interested in 'networking' with you rather than befriending you. Plus Seattle
has absolutely stunning nature. I didn't stay because of the grey skis.
Couldn't take it.

~~~
mryingster
Then buy skis that are a different color ;)

Just kidding. But I understand your sentiment. The grey skies wouldn't bother
me at all, but my wife would not be able to stand it. We live in a sunny
climate, and every day that is overcast she tells me how depressed it makes
her feel... Some people just need sunshine!

------
Rantenki
Site down for me:

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vUUVmJE...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vUUVmJEowEEJ:https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/02/19/Leaving-
Google+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca)

------
arecurrence
You'd be surprised how many people that I've seen leave Valley-based companies
to live in Vancouver. It's especially prevalent over the last few years.
Likely why Amazon, Facebook, and Twitter are growing teams here.

Honestly, you made the right call. As a technologist, you can make an impact
from anywhere but places like Vancouver take a very very long time to build
and develop (Good Luck Mountain View :) ). I know, I've lived around several
of Google's most prolific offices.

------
adeptus
"[I] haven’t seen a new technology in a while that struck me as a real life-
changer-at-scale"

C'mon dude... Dogecoin!

------
igorgue
Weird, I thought the Bay Area was the perfect place to live! </sarcasm>. I
also agree with this "Plus I find the Bay Area congested, racist, incestuous,
and overpriced."

------
rackoons44
It's interesting to see how he states that his remote work arrangement would
not have been as productive as him moving.

~~~
voidlogic
I found this interesting too, maybe it is due to his role as a developer
advocate?

I find when I am not working remote, I have to put in 4 more hrs/day to get
the same amount of work done...

~~~
bmj
I think it may have much to do with his role. See the job posting:
[https://developers.google.com/jobs/](https://developers.google.com/jobs/)

If your job is to be an advocate for employees at your employer, it is likely
better to be around those people, rather than just at the other end of a
Hangout. I'm guessing that interacting with people around the office is a
critical part of that role.

------
codr
This seems to be more about telecommuting than about Google.

------
yawz
_" Plus I find the Bay Area congested, racist, incestuous, and overpriced."_

Now... I've never lived in the Bay Area. I travel there once or twice a year
but visiting is nothing like living in a place. So, I can relate to the
adjectives above except the "racist" part. Is the Bay Area really more racist
than any other large metropolitan area?

------
michaelochurch
_Plus I find the Bay Area congested, racist, incestuous, and overpriced._

Isn't Vancouver equally overpriced or worse? It's a beautiful city and seems
like an amazing place to live, but I thought Vancouver's house prices were
into the millions as well.

In what way is the Bay Area racist? I'm not a fan of that region, but I've
never had that particular impression (except among upper-tier VCs, who aren't
specifically racist so much as they hate everyone not like them).

~~~
kohanz
Yes, Vancouver housing is incredibly overpriced. Perhaps more-so than the Bay
Area because wages have kept up even less (supposedly due to Vancouver's
desirability as a destination). That doesn't mean there aren't good, well-
paying jobs there, but on average, wages in Vancouver are much lower than, say
Toronto.

As for the racism aspect, I think the choice of word is a bit hyperbolic. That
being said, as a Canadian who has lived and worked in SV, I think there are
major differences between the way visible minorities are integrated in
Canadian and American society. California is probably one of the less jarring
transitions for a Canadian (fairly liberal society), but even then, you can't
help but notice. Note that I'm not saying it's better or worse (that is a
matter of opinion), but that it's just very _different_.

~~~
cromwellian
Can you give a particular example?

I live in the South Bay/Santa Clara and my neighborhood is a diverse
collection of Chinese, Indians, Arabs, Europeans immigrants, and African
Americans. SV segregation in my area isn't primarily racial, but classist.
Most if not all of the people in my neighborhood are white collar
professionals -- engineers, lawyers, doctors.

There are concentrated ethnic enclaves in the area like Cupertino, but these
are primarily based on school district preferences.

~~~
CurtHagenlocher
When there are elections in the Vancouver area, you see people of all
backgrounds and colors running for office. The same is decidedly not true in
the US. How many election posters have you seen where the candidate is wearing
a turban, or has a name that's difficult to pronounce for "native" Americans?

~~~
cromwellian
I've seen plenty of Chinese, Vietnamese, and Indians on posters in the Bay
Area. (US representative for my district is Mike Honda) I have not seen many
Arabs or Sikhs, but that may be more a function of population percentage and
profession, than racism towards these groups, which exploded mostly after
9/11.

People who run for office are usually lawyers, and there is a definite ethnic
divide in professions. Moreover, immigrants usually don't come to be lawyers,
since being good at law requires a mastery of the language and the nuances of
the local culture, and native born citizens have a natural advantage.

~~~
djs123sdj
I can understand why the confusion may arise due to both groups wearing
fabric-based head garments, but most (though not all) Sikhs are of Indian
origin.

Their cultural connection is much stronger to South Asia than to the Arab
world. Also, many Sikhs do not not wear turbans, so to you or anyone else,
they would just appear to be "Indians".

~~~
cromwellian
I know the difference between Sikhs (religion) and Arabs (ethnicity), I only
lumped them together because most Americans do not and the original poster
mentioned "turbans", hence a number of violent attacks against Sikhs after
9/11 by rednecks who didn't understand the difference.

Remember when the Hillary Clinton campaign released a photo of Barack Obama
wearing a (Somalian) turban?
[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/26/barackobama.use...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/26/barackobama.uselections2008)

~~~
djs123sdj
OK, I believe that you understand the difference, it just didn't seem that way
in your original post.

I didn't remember that photo from the 08 election (or even see it in the first
place). It makes the skull duggery of House of Cards seem every so slightly
less fictional!

------
fidotron
Wasn't he doing PR on the Android side?

Another one biting the dust.

------
varelse
So my first response was who the $^!% is Tim Bray? Then I read. TLDR: famous
enough to merit an article about his departure but not famous enough for
Google to give an inch to retain him (see Hinton, Geoffrey for a
counterexample).

No surprises here. Google is setting the stage for its own disruption. But
that event is a total black swan much like paying $16B for a messaging
company.

~~~
officemonkey
Co-authoring the XML spec probably didn't make him a household word, but I
knew who he was from that.

People choose "quality-of-life" over "job" all the time, especially when you
remove the need to make money from the equation.

~~~
varelse
I think he made the right call. It's hard for me to imagine him having trouble
finding work with 4 years of Google on his resume. That's the tech industry
equivalent of being a made man IMO.

~~~
zem
he was a very well-known and admired figure in the tech world long before he
joined google. in fact his four years there are close to being the least
impressive thing on his resume.

