
South Korean government to switch to Linux: ministry - jrepinc
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20190517000378
======
NortySpock
As I recall, this sort of public statement is used as a lever to squeeze some
discounts out of Microsoft's Enterprise Sales team before the government
"decides" to stay with Windows.

~~~
giancarlostoro
Whats worse is they could all pull it off if they invest in existing Distros
and hire people to build out the main infrastructure they need. If they rely
on legacy Windowd OS' the licenses for new OS' wont matter. They need secure
systems to avoid being hacked by external malicious state actors.

I would love to see some countries adopting Linux for government systems and
funding research and development e.g. maybe fund Libre Office or the KDE one
more and then build out other tools to be cross platform.

~~~
ethbro
"... and hire people to build out the main infrastructure they need."

There's a reason Microsoft was successful for years: they built turn-key
solutions, and added new turn-key features their customers requested.

Switching from that sort of IT to a linux-based, 'we need a system architect'
model doesn't happen overnight. There's organization shift, cultural shift,
firing unneeded people who won't retrain, retraining people who are worth it,
and hiring talent to fill gaps.

Not to mention that talent's more expensive and less easily certified (e.g.
all the official MS rubber stamp programs).

Not impossible, but it's a _LOT_ of work. With dubious chances of success.

~~~
teh_klev
Basically Total Cost of Ownership (TCO). This is something people forget
about. OS and app licenses are likely a drop in the ocean compared to the
operating costs of supporting your infrastructure (regardless of whether it
runs on Windows or Linux).

[edit: TOC -> TCO]

~~~
danieldk
TCO was also a big part of the marketing campaign of Microsoft against Linux
in the late 90ies, early 00s.

A big difference compared to one or two decades ago is that a lot of domain-
specific services have moved to web applications. So, there are probably a lot
of machines out there that are just glorified web browsing machines.

Also, the popularity of iOS and Android have made more applications cross-
platform.

Of course, once Office documents or legacy Win32 applications are part of the
equation, you can't really beat Windows. It is a common misconception that
LibreOffice could replace Office. I use a Linux desktop and a MacBook and most
of the Word/Excel paperwork that I have to do (luckily irregularly) does not
open correctly in LibreOffice. Of course, it is an uphill battle for the LO
folks.

~~~
DataWorker
I’ve switched to libreoffice from excel and find it totally viable as an excel
replacement except for lack of vba support, but it has its own scripting
language so even that isn’t a deal breaker. It’s just so much faster and less
bloated than today’s excel.

~~~
loup-vaillant
For most users, "replacement" mean it can open and edit Microsoft's documents
perfectly. For some users, it even means the GUI is just about the same so
they don't feel lost.

By that criteria (which are real criteria from real people), the only viable
replacement for Microsoft Office, is the next version of Microsoft Office.

The only way to break out of this, I think, is for governments to forbid
themselves to use proprietary software that was not developed on their own
soil. Because let's face it, it's not really about money (especially not about
_short term_ money). It's more about national security, sovereignty, and
freedom.

~~~
ethbro
And for why that's important: business teams who generate business-critical
Excel sheets never got the memo about good ideas from the software development
lifecycle. And have been cobbling together undocumented tools to get work done
for decades.

Dealing with this at work now.

And it's not like they're disinterested or incapable of learning, literally no
one thought "Gee, what those folks are doing looks a lot like code."

The biggest boost to interop would be requiring software vendors to release
spec sheets for necessary software components and file formats... if they want
government work. No more "It's too hard" or "We can't." You want the job,
those are the rules.

~~~
nradov
The Excel file format has been a publicly released open standard for years.

~~~
loup-vaillant
There's a document that ostensibly describes the format, but I'm not aware of
a free software reference implementation. Their format may be open in theory,
but in practice Microsoft still takes advantage of vendor lock in.

------
Yeri
I used to support our office in S. Korea.

It's true they depend super heavily on ActiveX and other weird
applets/software that runs only on Windows and/or IE.

A lot of the communication with the government (yearly tax submission) as well
as banking software would not run on our Linux or OSX devices, and so we had
these 'loaner' windows 'tax machines' that got reimaged every few days that
people could use to do their business.

They also have their own Office-like suite by Hancon[1], that is a pain to
support and only runs on Windows. There were attempts to have gDrive to be
able to read the files but afaik that never worked out.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hancom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hancom)

~~~
kijin
The word processor by Hancom is actually pretty nice, especially for composing
Korean-only and mixed Korean-and-English documents. I've been using it since
before I even knew that MS Word existed, and I still prefer it to MS Word for
anything that contains CJK characters. The proprietary file format is a PITA,
though.

Hancom did release a Linux version of their office suite a few years ago, and
regularly updates the OSX version. Moreover, Hancom has been dabbling in Linux
for over 20 years. They even maintained their own Red Hat-based distro at some
point. They also support OpenDocument and OOXML fairly well. In short, Hancom
has been hedging their bets very thoroughly. So if the government adopts Linux
by any chance, it won't be difficult for them to go fully cross-platform and
keep their lucrative government contracts.

~~~
a-afterglow
Have you been using it since its first release? I find it surprising you
hadn't heard about MS Office if you were already using Hancom.

~~~
kijin
Yeah, I've used H.ngeul since 1990 -- version 1.2 I think. MS Word already
existed, of course, but I didn't hear about it nor actually get to use it
until a few years later. I was a kid and didn't have internet back then, so
news was slow :p

------
ducttape12
I remember hearing years ago IE usage was crazy high in South Korea because
they had laws in place requiring all online banking customers to install an
ActiveX control. If that's true... Then they've come pretty far.

~~~
AFascistWorld
Most Chinese banks still do, some even require you to install a service, some
don't support Chrome.

~~~
revvx
This is similar to Brazilian banks too. Both public and private.

They stoped using ActiveX in the 00s but then started requiring the user to
install some rootkit-like security software that was nearly impossible to
uninstall and was probably able to spy on users.

Now they some of them have an app that is basically a bundled browser
accessing their regular website.

------
thiago_fm
I doubt this will work out. They also tried that in many countries, they all
go back to using Windows. I hate Windows, but I can envision how much money
AND time it's gonna cost them to move out, and I'm sure that they will either
run out of money before they do the transition, or machines would have already
dominated the earth before they are done with this "transition"l

I would believe it much more if they said that they will try to use more
Linux, try to mix them up, or create APIs for everything etc. Nowadays it's so
easy to create services and use LDAP or whatever thing you want with whatever
programming language or service. You can host it on Linux and start changing
some computers and systems to Linux.

But "switch from X to Y" seems a terrible idea. Even as a personal computer
user, for me, it's impossible to "switch". Imagine for a government. It's a
hilarious statement, one of those that politicians do say, but they have no
fucking clue of what they are saying.

~~~
nisa
Munich did it this way: 100% Linux, no compromises - they didn't even had an
central Active Directory so if you required Windows due to software in your
part of city government you were on your own - no central updates! They also
forced everyone on an ancient OpenOffice 3.x version with KDE 4.x and KMail?
That Munich migrated back has less todo with Linux or Windows or Microsoft
politics (maybe..) but more with badly run infrastructure and in-fighting and
big egos there. Sadly. That there is such a huge group of Linux proponents
that cry foul and suspect some conspiracy is not really helping...

~~~
macspoofing
That's the missing piece with these large scale deployments: is there an
infrastructure to provide support, training and maintenance of the deployment.
It's one thing to push for moving from Windows to Linux, it's another to
actually figure out the thousands of details that go along with it.

What Munich did was essentially created a homegrown solution which suffers
from all the problems of homegrown solutions. Yes, you get to tailor it to
your business, but then you have to maintain it for decades. Inevitably
industry passes you by, and you end up paying for a sub-standard proprietary
(ironically) solution that has no widespread support and you're own your own
for everything - from new features, to security updates, to training, to
compatibility and interoperability. It's always great at the beginning, and
it's always miserable 10 years later when the excitement goes away and the
original champions have moved on.

------
johnyoon
I did some search and found that the distros that Korean government is
considering are: Gooroom OS, which is being developed by Hancom since 2015 but
were never released, Ubuntu, and HarmoniKR based on LinuxMint. They are
considering web-based office suite so LibreOffice is may not be among
consideration.

There are options such as PolarisOffice and Naver Office, but given that
Hancom Office has a stake in the game, their cloud service HancomSpace along
with Hancom Online may gain momentum. In the worst case scenario, I could see
Korean government see Office 365 as a fallback.

[https://www.zdnet.co.kr/view/?no=20190516093822](https://www.zdnet.co.kr/view/?no=20190516093822)
[https://namu.wiki/w/%EA%B5%AC%EB%A6%84%20OS](https://namu.wiki/w/%EA%B5%AC%EB%A6%84%20OS)
[https://space.malangmalang.com/](https://space.malangmalang.com/)
[https://www.hancom.com/product/productNetfficeMain.do](https://www.hancom.com/product/productNetfficeMain.do)

------
gchamonlive
What I really don't understand is why commercial stations (like burger king's,
ice cream stands etc...) uses windows when all those computers do is show
either videos or static images

~~~
zeusk
Might not answer you exact question, but I interned with the display team in
Windows - they had loads of weird asks for interesting display topologies (and
adapter modes) to be supported for _media_ displays.

I'm pretty sure I've never seen anything like that on LKML.

~~~
gchamonlive
That is something that puts Linux off. Linux doesn't handle esoteric
topologies very well without some complex xrandr instructions

------
stockkid
I'm surprised to see such a move from the South Korean government. The reason
is that, back when I lived there a while ago, most of the government resources
required Windows machines to access. Specifically, we needed ActiveX and
Internet Explorer for many stuff.

Such dependence on Microsoft technology is not only found in government but
also in corporations. Recently I needed to access my bank account there and
the bank required me to install some anti-virus software that only runs on
Windows.

I don't know how things are now in general, but I welcome this change.

------
jacquesm
Cue a concerted effort by MS salespeople to make them an offer they can't
refuse. See also: Munich.

~~~
maximus1983
That is a flat out lie.

[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/13/munich_committee_sa...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/13/munich_committee_says_all_windows_2020)

> Hübner said the city has struggled with LiMux adoption. "Users were unhappy
> and software essential for the public sector is mostly only available for
> Windows," she said. > She estimated about half of the 800 or so total
> programs needed don't run on Linux and "many others need a lot of effort and
> workarounds". > Hübner added, "in the past 15 years, much of our efforts
> were put into becoming independent from Microsoft," including spending "a
> lot of money looking for workarounds" but "those efforts eventually failed."

[https://www.neowin.net/news/munich-germany-realizes-that-
dep...](https://www.neowin.net/news/munich-germany-realizes-that-deploying-
linux-was-a-disaster-going-back-to-windows/)

> [https://www.neowin.net/news/munich-germany-realizes-that-
> dep...](https://www.neowin.net/news/munich-germany-realizes-that-deploying-
> linux-was-a-disaster-going-back-to-windows/)

Looks like the open source equivalents for the software didn't deal well
enough with different file formats.

~~~
sascha_sl
This is not flat out wrong, it's just the officially given reason. Not the
entire story. The source is in German, but EN Wikipedia sums it up nicely:

"In 2018, journalistic group Investigate Europe released a video documentary
via German public television network ARD, wherein it is claimed that the
majority of city workers were satisfied with the operating system, with
council members insinuating that the reversal was a personally motivated
decision by lord mayor Dieter Reiter. Reiter denied that he had initiated the
reversal in gratitude for Microsoft moving its German headquarters from
Unterschleißheim back to Munich."

This is also worth a read:

[https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2017/02/14/statemen...](https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2017/02/14/statement-
by-the-document-foundation-about-the-upcoming-discussion-at-the-city-of-
munich-to-step-back-to-windows-and-ms-office/)

In short, it _was_ MSFT lobby grease.

~~~
maximus1983
So you link a biased source against Microsoft to prove that Microsoft were
conspiring with the council. They're reason to exist is to make Microsoft look
bad.

------
gkanai
I was the blogger who first wrote (in English) about South Korea's reliance on
Active X controls and Internet Explorer. That was more than a decade ago.

------
Causality1
I'm paranoid enough of the numerous backdoors Microsoft has into my system as
a home user. I can't imagine actually having life-threatening secrets on a
Windows box, which is a reality for most of the governments of the world.

------
oregontechninja
At this rate, it really feels like the next version of Windows will be derived
from some Unix os. Windows 8 and onwards has been an unmitigated IT disaster.
Windows Server is meh. I once ran Ubuntu mate with a windows theme on a
computer terminal in a computer lab, and everybody clamored to use it since it
was faster, better at printing, and never bluescreened. (That particular model
was forced into "obselecence" by windows 10).

Just throw a custom graphical shell over a hardened Unix os, then use Valve's
proton project for application comparability. You could be so rich using other
people's work Microsoft.

~~~
la_barba
Just as another anecdote to yours, I regularly get months of uptime with my
Windows 10 dev box. Its been nothing but rock solid for me (so was 7 and 8
before that).

~~~
verall
I'm not sure if it is possible to get months of uptime on a Windows 10 box
without having pro/enterprise and disabling auto-updates. I have done this on
my W10 desktop workstation and agree - literally no downtime/crashes until I
have to windows update.

OOTH, my W10 laptop (xps 13 9343) is forced by microsoft to update. This means
that every week my lappy spends around 90 minutes downloading, installing,
failing, and finally rolling back an update. If I can remember I just keep
delaying it.

~~~
la_barba
Yes, months of uptime === no updating. The 'months' part was just to show that
Windows10 doesn't necessarily suck for every single person. I'm quite happy
with it, but I'm happy with Ubuntu and W7 and OSX too. I haven't disabled W10
updates, but being the sysadmin at our company I have a special OU for
machines that I manually update via WSUS.

------
thewhitetulip
I hope that Indian govt switches to Linux

~~~
_emacsomancer_
I think the way forward here is getting more Linux support at lower levels,
including the state-level. There has been some progress on this front,
especially in Kerala, and also in Assam:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoption_of_free_and_open-
sour...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoption_of_free_and_open-
source_software_by_public_institutions#India)

~~~
thewhitetulip
Recently state govts of Telangana and Gujarat have shifted to Linux

As have many colleges

What I was talking is the central govt and all govt undertakings. It'll be
huge. Windows and IE6 is standard and they are bad, they hang a lot

------
slyu
I wonder if this is something that can be accomplshied at a scale, particually
thinking in the context of maintaining upgrade readiness and update compliance
for all the devices.

~~~
techntoke
Absolutely, it is very easy to automate too. Arch has a great package manager
BTW.

------
babakandishmand
Curious if they'd roll out their own distro.

~~~
thewhitetulip
That will be too much work. Why not use well maintained existing distros?

~~~
zzzcpan
Why would that be too much work? I expect total cost of ownership for the
government distro to be way less, than using those "well maintained" ones.

~~~
techntoke
I say they use Arch Linux, automate the install and management using some
DevOps and call it a day. it already supports pretty much every piece of
modern software under the sun.

~~~
lasagnaphil
Maybe Arch Linux is a bit too bleeding edge, but perhaps it could be done (I'm
currently using Manjaro and it's as solid as the other distros out there)

------
dbmueller
Recently there was a votation in my town, to decide whether to accept a budget
for renewing the schools IT infrasture. It included office365 accounts and new
computers and tablets (presumably ipads)

I wonder how different it would be were they using an OSS stack. Any stories?

~~~
edtechstrats
Best example I am aware of is from Penn Manor SD in PA, but others exist.

[1] [https://opensource.com/education/14/9/interview-charlie-
reis...](https://opensource.com/education/14/9/interview-charlie-reisinger-
penn-manor)

[2] [https://lancasteronline.com/opinion/editorials/penn-
manor-s-...](https://lancasteronline.com/opinion/editorials/penn-manor-s-
student-computer-program-offers-a-lesson-
to/article_ff2da7ce-084d-11e7-a800-e3b2c204e782.html)

[3] [https://technology.pennmanor.net/open-source-in-
school/](https://technology.pennmanor.net/open-source-in-school/)

------
xvilka
Well, even Russia managed to switch some governmental bodies to Linux. It is
only a matter of political will. UK has Collabora who has contract to remove
some issues in LibreOffice. South Korea can do just the same if required.

------
maskiii
The dream of a free OS.

I've heard something like this in the south-Indian state of Kerala as well.

------
donpark
I think SK government will not see problems in migration to Linux as blockers
but as a major opportunity to help its IT businesses grow, particularly in the
e-gov market. Net result: more choice and more business for all.

------
AFascistWorld
China has this "original" OS called Redflag Linux, it's basically repackaged
Linux to rake in government money, sells to military for some 500 usd per pc,
the kickback must be big.

~~~
chillacy
And yet nothing is as common as pirated windows. Even one of the displays in
an airport crashed and there was a bsod

~~~
seanmcdirmid
It might not have been pirated. Microsoft has done well with getting the
government/SOEs to actually by windows over the last decade, probably at a
significant discount but whatever.

Piracy just isn’t mostly worth it anymore.

------
excalibur
> The transition to Linux OS and the purchase of new PCs are expected to cost
> the government about 780 billion won ($655 million), the ministry said.

You're doing it wrong. The government should have a robust hierarchy of
support staff in place. While the transition will consume a significant amount
of their time and therefore cost money, it's money that you were spending
anyway, and was already budgeted. New PCs are not required for Linux, except
in cases where their existing hardware is damaged or insufficient, which again
should already be in the budget.

------
jothezero
Most of governments are locked-in windows and will for a while.

------
tpae
Does this mean their shitty Active X plugins will be fazed out?

------
superos
I switched 20 years ago. What took them so long?

~~~
WilliamEdward
uh you're just 1 person?

------
adrianhel
This is amazing!

------
openfuture
Hurray!

------
bnjakait1
Of course they don't have any other questions since Linux is now stable like
never before

------
conrmahr
maybe they should use Kali?

~~~
conrmahr
tough crowd, just a joke.

------
seddin
They are going to be amazed by how much they wasted by using Windows.

------
Grollicus
Hope that works as well for them as the switch to Linux worked for Munich

~~~
beefhash
Except that Munich switched back[1].

[1]
[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/13/munich_committee_sa...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/13/munich_committee_says_all_windows_2020/)

~~~
Grollicus
After Microsoft moved their german headquaters to Munich, which of course had
nothing to do with their decision to switch back.

~~~
klingonopera
A two-year-old interview with Munich's mayor on that issue:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBRh2G29NNE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBRh2G29NNE)

~~~
leadingthenet
Difficult not to agree with the view that some corruption took place there.
Dude seems shady and technically illiterate.

------
antmanler
Then run a full linux kernel upon WSL2...

~~~
techntoke
WSL2 isn't out yet, and WSL sucked so much that I imagine WSL 2 won't be much
better.

~~~
als0
> WSL sucked so much that I imagine WSL 2 won't be much better

Why does it suck? Is it an issue of compatibility or performance? At least
WSL2 will fix the former.

~~~
techntoke
Again, you are talking about something that isn't even released yet.

It sucks because the Linux distros available for it are now outdated, it
utilizes a specific outdated kernel, it is extremely slow.. the file system is
about 20x slower doing most file-system related tasks. Copy/paste doesn't work
well without XLaunch (and then stills sucks). There was never a good terminal
for it, and the new one doesn't address if it will provide mouse support for
things like Vim, it didn't support Docker.

There are many more nuances, but that is just a few. Let's not forget though
that Windows package management is the worst out of all the operating systems,
so even if you have WSL, you are still going to be suck maintaining a crappy
OS using terrible bloated installers that leave files everywhere and a crappy
package manager like Chocolatey that is falling further behind repos like AUR
and Arch.

~~~
Dylan16807
> the Linux distros available for it are now outdated

That's what apt-get is for.

> it utilizes a specific outdated kernel

Lots of distros do that.

> it is extremely slow.. the file system is about 20x slower doing most file-
> system related tasks

That's a windows problem, not a WSL problem.

> There was never a good terminal for it

Don't you have the choice of almost all existing windows _and_ linux
terminals? How can _none_ of those be good?

And normal windows installers have nothing to do with it.

The lack of docker support is important, but let's not ignore that they're in
the middle of fixing it.

------
robertAngst
What does 'Linux OS' mean?

Various Linux desktop distros?

If so, have mercy on anyone who will be using Ubuntu Desktop for the first
time. I hope they aren't afraid of using Terminal, because the internet will
shout them down for wanting a GUI solution.

Love Ubuntu server, but could never get into linux desktop.

~~~
jimmaswell
The elitism can be absurd. Sometimes I wonder if it's stockholm syndrome. "You
want to configure things with a GUI with discoverability? Not read a
dissertation-length man page and edit config files whose syntax changes
between versions so you can't even rely on google results? Go back to
winbl0ws"

~~~
swiley
Most of the config files are (IMHO) much more discoverable than most GUIs,
usually the default config has the default settings commented out along with a
block of comments explaining them. A lot of GUI apps I've used have really
crappy settings dialogs that don't explain things well and aren't searchable.
But it's really the individual app, both can be done nicely or poorly, config
files are often easier to implement and copy between machines and app versions
(at least that's the feeling I've gotten.) And at least with config files
there's something to google. GUIs change even more often (there are even fewer
reasons to keep them stable than config file syntax.)

Also you're not really supposed to read through the entire man page for an app
that you only touch once or twice, you're supposed to just search for what you
need and leave.

My personal opinion is that GUIs are often less user friendly, they just look
friendlier. GUIs make it easier to sell software, not to use it. Free software
isn't being sold and that's why it tends to not have a GUI.

------
tooltalk
> ... as Microsoft’s free technical support for Windows 7 expires in January
> 2020.

they are still on Windows 7? ouch!!!

~~~
dictum
Maybe I got older and life lost some color, but the difference between Windows
10 and Windows 7 doesn't feel like the difference between 7 and XP. Seems like
most of the action (outside gaming and Office power users) has moved to
browsers and browser wrappers.

~~~
rakoo
Same for me, although it might be because I also switched to Linux in
parallel. XP was just perfect and there was no reason to change, yet 7 came
along and if you want the best protection you need to be up to date. While 7
didn't bring anything for me beyond different skins, it did its job.

Windows 10? Man I feel like I'm on an ad-infested website and I need to be
careful of where I click. But I'm definitely not objective here.

~~~
toyg
_> XP was just perfect and there was no reason to change_

Lolz, I heard that already... with Windows 2000. So many (me included) spent
serious time trying to strip XP of all the crap, because "Win2000 was just
perfect".

In reality, XP (like 2000) was just another pile of shit. They patched the
hell out of it with SP2, and still it would get owned and owned.

Vista and Windows 7 have made using Windows much safer, and Win 7 refined the
interface enough to be a substantial improvement over XP. Win 7 was probably
the pinnacle of pre-touch/pre-cloud Microsoft.

~~~
codedokode
Windows 7 also had lot of exploits. It runs many services like network file
systems (NetBIOS) in kernel which makes it easier to gain access to it.

------
skc
I really don't get all the conspiracy theories being thrown around about
Microsoft now having to send over some suits to rescue the situation.

Doesn't really jibe with the moves they have been making lately that seem to
show that if anything, Microsoft is de-prioritising the Windows business.

They are happy for you to move off Windows provided you still use some of
their cloud offerings. There's a reason Office 365 is doing as well as it is.

