
Why Americans dress so casually - gotchange
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/09/08/why-americans-dress-so-casually/
======
cballard
I feel like there is a conflation here of dressing casually[1] and dressing
like a slob[2]. The former understands silhouette, color (often lack thereof),
texture, etc., but eschews traditional formal attire.

> The only thing I will say is that there's still a bit of a gender hangover,
> where women are singled out for wearing clothing normally associated with
> men.

Wait, what? This is the _opposite_ of how it is. It was a big deal when that
celebrity kid wore a dress[3]. Women wearing denim, an oxford shirt, or
sneakers is not even something people would notice as "off". Black jeans are
practically a _uniform_ for women in NYC.

> I don’t know if it will happen, let alone sometime soon, but self-cleaning
> fabrics, I think that will be a thing.

Not exactly self-cleaning, but merino and synthetic technical fabric is very
_hype_ currently.

[1]:
[https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&q=apc+lookbook](https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&q=apc+lookbook)
[2]: [http://www.theonion.com/article/iowa-fashion-week-
begins-315...](http://www.theonion.com/article/iowa-fashion-week-begins-31579)
[3]:
[http://www.etonline.com/news/165398_jaden_smith_wears_dress_...](http://www.etonline.com/news/165398_jaden_smith_wears_dress_to_prom_attends_with_hunger_games_amandla_sternberg/)

~~~
nostrebored
I think your perception of what dressing casually is will be dramatically
skewed by where you are in the US -- as will what you deem to look slovenly. I
think that the two are relative -- dressing casual for your location is doing
something to distinguish yourself from the lazier crowd.

I also think that using lookbook models as examples of casual dress is going
to be excessive outside of fashion hubs. Their clothes are tailored well,
layered appropriately with appealing, seasonally appropriate color schemes --
outside of a well curated closet, these aren't going to be looks that you'll
pull out every day. And if your wardrobe is well selected, you probably are
dressing a little more than casually.

Also, I would say that skinny jeans are a pretty gender agnostic article of
clothing now. And again, I think location comes into play. You're going to see
a disproportionate number of women wearing sundresses/skirts in the south etc.
I do think that in larger cities this is much less of a thing.

------
mcv
She claims that Americans dress more casually than anywhere else, and I don't
doubt that the US has played a massive role in promoting more casual dress
(also the cowboy esthetic, rock and roll, etc), but I'm not so sure the US is
really more casual than every other country out there.

When I hear Americans talk about business casual, it's generally khakis and
button down shirts, except when you're in Silicon Valley. But in Netherland,
jeans, t-shirt and sneakers (or army boots, in my case) are totally normal in
the office. This was the case when I worked in small software companies, but
currently I work at a major bank, and it's no different (except sandals, flip-
flops and shorts do seem to be a step too far). The business side is a bit
more formal, but the IT side is completely casual. Probably because everybody
is looking at Silicon Valley.

~~~
juped
You've activated my pet peeve! A shirt with buttons, cuffs, and a collar is
called a "shirt" without modifiers, or a "dress shirt" if you are in an
aggressively casual-dressing context where someone thinks it means "t-shirt"
(which is really properly referred to as a "t-shirt"). "Button down" is a type
of collar that can be buttoned down (hence the name), not a type of shirt. A
"button down shirt" would logically be a shirt with a collar that buttons
down, which is really a less-formal variant (it's a convenience for the
physically active).

~~~
chmielewski
A "polo shirt" is one where the collar points button to the shirt. Named for
polo players whom had an aversion to their collars flying up while playing.

~~~
DanBC
That's not a polo shirt. A polo shirt is a cotton t shirt, with a collar, and
a button up neck. The collar is soft and un-boned and is not button down.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polo_shirt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polo_shirt)

EDIT: although you're right that button down collars did start in polo.

------
golergka
Casually? To me, it seems that americans really like to overdress. People
still tell me (please, feel free to correct me — I'm not living in US, so my
information may be outdated) that they would get strange looks if they wore
flip-flops and shirts to the office, regardless of how hot it is outside, and
how dangerous for health it might be to wear pants that don't allow the proper
ventilation.

When I look at pictures of NYC, I always see people walking in suits down the
streets. It's bizzare.

~~~
nostrebored
It's also important to note where in the US you're talking about. Where I'm
from, Atlanta, one of the largest business cities in the south eastern U.S.,
what you've said is absolutely true. If you're going to work, for the majority
of jobs there you're definitely not going to wear flip-flops/t-shirts. A polo
would probably be the closest acceptable article of clothing to a t-shirt for
most jobs. I've had a coworker get sent home for wearing shorts on casual
Friday. However, moving to the west coast, the culture is completely
different. I work in the tech hub of downtown Seattle, and most people are
dressed in sneakers/t-shirts/hoodies etc., with unkempt looking hair.

My fiancee, who is from the West Coast, jokes that if you're wearing a suit in
the South, you probably have an important job -- if you're wearing a suit in
Seattle, you probably work at the mall.

~~~
VLM
"if you're wearing a suit in Seattle, you probably work at the mall."

There's a socioeconomic U-shape to the clothing curve for employed people
where lower status jobs have dress codes to indicate their lack of
individuality and ease of replaceability and interchangeability, and general
lack of humanity or humane treatment via strict and formal uniforms. Then it
declines into "cubical land" where a local minima is probably the "jeans
friday". Then the curve goes back up where there are strong labor markets
(programmers in SV, former Apple CEOs who like turtlenecks, etc) and slovenly
attire is a very public display of how difficult replacement would be.

Something else to keep in mind is the unemployment rate (the real labor force
participation rate, not the made up propaganda figures) is about half. And
labor saving home appliances mean the half who are not working are no longer
standing at a sink doing dishes or hand washing laundry. And a minimal level
of social transfer payments mean the unemployed have some money and therefore
something to be seen doing. In "the bad old days" the bums down by the river
were not well dressed, but they were unseen. Now a days you will be seeing the
unemployed half of the population, and they have not necessarily begun to
dress up. This has certain trend setting issues. Given "people of walmart"
photos I don't feel the need to dress up when I torture myself by shopping at
walmart, and that caving in, applied to a very large scale, ends up with very
few people dressing up to shop at walmart.

~~~
cballard
Casual Friday seems like an absurd concept to me. Either you're capable of
getting the job done in denim, or you're not. If you cannot, why would you be
allowed to wear them on Friday? If you can, why wouldn't you be able to wear
them on Monday through Thursday?

~~~
VLM
I can control what you wear down to the weirdest detail, and you'll cooperate.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
I'm a computer programmer. The computer does not care what I wear. (If I had
customer contact, what I wear would matter.)

If you're my boss, and you turn into that kind of a control freak, I may
cooperate for the moment, but my resume will be on the street by this evening.

~~~
mcv
It's always possible that some business visitor, maybe representing a big
customer, gets a tour of the office and gets to see where the programmers are
working.

Personally I'd think that visit would be more effective if he sees that the
programmers are not dressy business people but people hired for their brains,
but clearly some disagree.

------
flexie
I would say weather, obesity and technology also play major roles, possibly
more than "fashion" or maybe creating fashion.

Weather: During the 20th century Americans have increasingly moved west and
south to warmer climates (go back 100 years and most Americans lived in the
cooler climates in the north east). Loose khakis, t-shirt and sandals is much
more comfortable in warm weather.

Obesity: Very few were obese back when suits were common. It's not comfortable
anymore to tuck your shirt in the pants once the belly pushes outwards
(personal experience).

Technology: Washers and dryers became common throughout the 20th century.
Washing clothes used to be time consuming but the washer and dryer meant that
it's now easy to wash your jeans and t-shirts. Meanwhile it's still a hassle
to have your suit dry cleaned and your shirts pressed or ironed.

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lottin
I understand the advantages of dressing casually, but when I watch a video
from the mid 20th century the first thing that strikes me (in a positive way)
is that ordinary people took pride in their personal appearance. Nowadays it
feels like people just don't care about their looks.

~~~
hudell
"Nowadays it feels like people just don't care about their looks."

Do you think that is a bad thing?

~~~
rimantas
I do think it is a bad thing.

~~~
hudell
why?

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pkorzeniewski
I'm aware most people in tech don't care about their appearance, so I probably
will get downovted, but I feel much better at work around nicely dressed
people - just as I prefer to work in a cozy office rather than an old hole
with devastated walls, torn carpet and ugly desks. And yes, how you dress
tells a lot about you.

~~~
jib
Caring about dressing nicely is a Moneyball thing to me.

If you care about how someone dresses when you hire them, odds are you're
using bad criteria for your decisions. That's not to say that you can't get
great people, but you're probably paying over the odds for them, if "dresses
nicely" is one of your factors for selection.

I think I will hire better if I dont care about dress code - I think odds are
better that I will find a good hire if one of my criteria is not "do they own
a suit or a dress".

~~~
tommorris
> If you care about how someone dresses when you hire them

Funnily enough, all the programmers I know who "don't care about dress" also
will say that they have negative perceptions of people turning up in a suit
for a programming job.

They care about dress, they just want people to conform to a very casual dress
code. Which would be fine, if they admitted to it. Instead, they say they
"don't care about dress".

~~~
marcosdumay
They don't care about dress. They care a lot about being around people that
care about dress, and turning up in a suit is a very reliable indicator that a
person cares about dress.

That said, it's a very reliable indicator on almost all situations, the most
important exception being during an employment interview; it's extremely noisy
then.

~~~
cballard
> They care a lot about being around people that care about dress, and turning
> up in a suit is a very reliable indicator that a person cares about dress.

I disagree with this.

Showing up in "a suit", in most cases, isn't caring about dress, it's thinking
that a required formality of dress is necessary. People that _care_ about
clothes, and are fashion enthusiasts, will show up in Thom Browne, CdG,
Engineered Garments, etc. - or even just basic Club Monaco-type stuff if
they're don't have a giant amount of disposable income.

While adherence to arbitrary fashion formality levels may be an indicator of
unawareness, an interest in fashion seems incredibly unrelated to programming
skill, unless the programmer is expected to be solely interested in
programming - in which case, they should also rule out runners, rock climbers,
guitarists, etc.

~~~
marcosdumay
By "care about dress" I don't mean people that care about how they are
dressed. Those don't bother anybody.

It's people that care about how others are dressed that are the problem. What
you call "thinking that a formality of dress is necessary". We disagree on
terminology.

------
S_A_P
I think this article has it backwards. I usually gauge what the company
culture is by the dress code. If everyone in the office is wearing a suit and
looks down on me for not doing so, I don't want to work there. If they judge
someone for not wearing a suit I don't want to work there. If they care about
good results and as long as you dress appropriately for any customers you may
face, that is probably a good culture.

~~~
dheera
I agree with you. I also think this way. However, keep in mind though that the
unemployment for software engineers in the Bay Area is nearly zero. I've
rejected more companies than the other way around. So for people like us, we
tend to collectively get a lot of say over company culture, or else we leave
and find a better place to work. This isn't true of most other industries
though.

------
ramblerman
The consensus here seems to be that it is a comfort thing and the US is
generally warmer. There is truth in that, but I would argue there is a bigger
cultural divide at play.

I was just sitting in a restaurant in France the other day and an american was
present one table over sporting a baseball cap indoors. I realise it's my
issue, but this really bothered me for some reason.

~~~
mcv
The etiquette certainly used to be that you take your hat off indoors. Men at
least; women maybe not, for some reason.

------
quaffapint
I'm in the US and worked for a bank and remember getting pulled aside by my
manager because his boss was upset that my dress shoes did not match dress
pants. Keep in mind that I was a lowly programmer, had to wear a tie, and when
he had investors come through we were literally told to hide.

I now work for the bank that bought out that bank and work from home currently
in jeans and a hoodie, much more befitting my status.

------
bechampion
I've worked in Chicago and London , in different kind of companies. Chicago
was extremely casual (sandals with white socks), ere In London we have to do
smart casual every day but allowed to wear denims on friday. I've never been
to NY but i feel that could be close to what London is like?

~~~
dagw
One thing I found working in London (1999-2000ish) was that even when
everybody was 'forced' to wear a suit, many people gave zero fucks about how
that suit looked. It permanently cured me of any belief that just wearing suit
amounted in any way dressing well.

------
chrisfarms
> His prediction was that everyone would dress in uniforms. But that’s the
> complete opposite of what has happened. And I don’t think people will be
> dressing in uniforms anytime soon.

OK, here's a potential prediction that could bring about "uniforms"...

If we end up with some kind of ubiquitous augmented reality, we may end up
styling ourselves like you would a game avatar, and even "themeing" everyone
around us. In that world, it might make more sense to just all wear comfy grey
onezies all day.

Of course all predictions like this are hilariously off... it'll probably be
more like the entire earth bizarrely becomes a comfortable 23C and everyone
just walks around in socks.

~~~
dade_
Last weekend there was a man in a green onesie with a yellow unicorn tusk at a
bar, so it may be a continuation of the theme. Certainly stood out, but not
only because of the outfit; Self-cleaning clothing can't arrive soon enough.

------
humanrebar
I see no mention of climate (the U.S. is mostly hotter than Europe) and
shifting demographics towards the Southwest (where it's hotter).

Even in these comments, there are observations contrasting more formal NYC
with more casual southern and west coast cities. Makes sense to me. Even in
slightly more formal southern towns like Dallas and Atlanta, there is a lot of
new growth and new transplants from the north and east.

------
JoeAltmaier
Has the dress code just changed to 'casual'? This may not be some fundamental
shift in people and what they care about. Its just a change in the details of
current fashion.

------
douche
Who the hell _wants_ to get gussied up in non-functional, expensive,
uncomfortable clothes, if it is not necessary? Give me cheap, durable, and
comfortable any day of the week.

Thankfully, I can wear my steel-toe boots, Carharts and flannel to work, and
nobody cares. Why would they? I'm a programmer that sits in my office most of
the time, and, except for trade-shows, any interactions I have with customers
are on the phone or email.

~~~
beachstartup
why do you need steel-toed boots in an office? the only time i've seen that is
at construction or engineering firms where office workers occasionally have to
go into the field/job site.

~~~
douche
They are very comfortable, with good ankle support. Also well insulated, for
the five months out of the year when it is below freezing or snowy.

I also don't see the point in spending the money on another pair of "fancy"
boots, which are generally not very well constructed, or fitted to my feet,
when I have these[1], which are tough-as-nails and reasonably good-looking if
you keep them clean and use a little polish once in a while.

Yeah, they are kevlar-lined chainsaw boots - I actually use a chainsaw on a
regular basis, and having a real pair of safety boots is pretty much the
absolute minimum level of safety equipment. Even if you know what you are
doing and are careful, you can fetch up on something and the saw can kick
back. Chainsaw cuts are extremely nasty.

[1] [http://www.labonville.com/Labonville-Kevlar-1-Low-Heel-
Chain...](http://www.labonville.com/Labonville-Kevlar-1-Low-Heel-Chainsaw-
Safety-Steel-Box-Toe-Boot-Made-In-The-USA--24127_p_248.html)

------
grouchoboy
Just a little comment. America is not only USA.

~~~
hyperliner
Most of the world goes by the definition that "America" means "USA" in this
context. There may be other definitions of "America," but they are not the
most popular across the world in this context.

