
RemixOS – Android for the desktop - xearl
http://www.jide.com/en/remixos
======
nextos
As a hardcore Linux user, I'm really torn about Android.

On the one hand, it has created a nice software ecosystem by pushing a
consistent set of APIs. Linux desktop applications were never remarkable
except for a few ones. I think fragmentation into a myriad of frameworks led
to this. The only 2 X11 applications I use are firefox and zathura.

On the other hand, too much stuff has been redone in Android. It's too
foreign. I would prefer less app-ification, less stores, more package
management. And no mothership, no Google.

~~~
legulere
> I would prefer less app-ification, more package management.

I would argue for the opposite: One problem with linux is that you can't run
untrusted software without it getting the same access as the user. That's
exactly what the appification is.

I see package managers as a source of some problems of linux: Package
maintainers are a unneeded middleman between the writers of the software and
you, package managers interact with the whole system, scattering files around
the whole filesystem and running scripts as root when installing/uninstalling
packages. Applications being files/folders that can be installed/uninstalled
with cp/rm seems way more unixy to me.

~~~
tagrun
> I would argue for the opposite: One problem with linux is that you can't run
> untrusted software without it getting the same access as the user. That's
> exactly what the appification is. > I see package managers as a source of
> some problems of linux: Package maintainers are a unneeded middleman between
> the writers of the software and you, package managers interact with the
> whole system, scattering files around the whole filesystem and running
> scripts as root when installing/uninstalling packages.

High-standards imposed by distros (see for example:
[https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/](https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-
policy/)) and tedious work of packagers has been a very important part of the
free software ecosystem, and kept GNU/Linux snoopware-, malware- and virus-
free and trustable [1]. They are far from "unneeded middleman".

Here's a very recent example of this system at work: Chromium sneaks a binary
blob which secretly listens to your microphone and sends data to Google:
[https://lwn.net/Articles/648392/](https://lwn.net/Articles/648392/)

This is just one instance, there has been many many examples of this.

There are just so many, let me say, shady, "apps" out there, so I don't
install anything from Google Play Store on my smartphone. On my desktop/laptop
however, I feel safe installing whatever I need from the official
repositories. I personally don't want to use a distro to which "app"
developers from Android ecosystem can freely push their programs (and updates
to them).

> Applications being files/folders that can be installed/uninstalled with
> cp/rm seems way more unixy to me.

But that's essentially what a package manager does for you, although it takes
away your freedom to screw up in the process. In GNU/Linux, it essentially 1)
protects you from screwing up your system accidentally 2) allows you trust
system-wide binaries (assuming that your distro is trustable).

App Stores are also package managers, so I'm not sure what you're trying to
point out here.

====

[1] I'm excluding Ubuntu here. Ubuntu comes with spyware, spies on you by
default and monetizes the privacy and trust of its users [2]. I don't trust
it, I don't use it, and I recommend against it.

[2] [http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-
spyware.en.html](http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.en.html)

~~~
yohui
> _Here 's a very recent example of this system at work: Chromium sneaks a
> binary blob which secretly listens to your microphone and sends data to
> Google: [https://lwn.net/Articles/648392/](https://lwn.net/Articles/648392/)
> _

Downloading a binary blob in the first place was the real issue. However, the
voice recognition module wasn't actually used unless you opted into the "Ok
Google" hotword feature.

Getting back on topic, Android handles similar problems in a different way,
via the permission system (esp. the improvements in Android 6.0+).

~~~
tagrun
> However, the voice recognition module wasn't actually used unless you opted
> into the "Ok Google" hotword feature.

So says someone, but you don't know what else the binary blob (which can be
"updated" at the will of Google, without asking anything to the user) does for
sure, do you? If you're content with that explanation, you're essentially
taking their word for it with blind trust. For example, will it push a new
binary and/or suddenly start listening to you or send certain files from your
computer if someone three-letter government agency tells Google to do so?
Would you bet your life on it?

Trust in software may not be that serious for you, but there are people out
there whose lives depend on it.

The issue here is twofold, and in terms of security, it being a binary blob is
the lesser one: 1) this is a binary blob which hasn't been vetted by the
eyeballs of FOSS world 2) Google circumvents the package manager (along with
package reviewers and FOSS community) and secretly and freely installs (and
updates) a binary blob on your system, which is essentially a closed-source
backdoor singularly controlled by a US company.

A program that silently pushes programs on users' systems (and silently
executes them!) at the pleasure of a company never had any place in Debian or
any distro with similar principles. It wouldn't matter if they pushed the
source code and compiled it on your system (in fact, some rootkits work just
like that).

> Getting back on topic, Android handles similar problems in a different way,
> via the permission system (esp. the improvements in Android 6.0+).

You're talking about a totally different problem/class of permissions here
though (accessing network/video/audio/filesystem etc vs ability to install
packages as a non-root user).

~~~
cjhopman
Oh please. If google wanted to record from Chrome users, they could do it
easily. If you actually trust packagers to know what Chrome is doing, you're
crazy.

~~~
throwaway7767
I trust the package managers to build software in a way that I can be sure
matches with the published source package. That's the important difference.
Projects bundle blobs into their binaries that aren't in the source code all
the time (cf. chromium as discussed, but firefox did (does?) this too).

Of course you could say in a large codebase like chromium, bad things can be
hidden. But at least there's a better chance such things are found, and it's
more risky to put it there in plain sight.

In a perfect world, all software would have reproducible builds and there
would be no issue with trusting that binaries contained no hidden
functionality not in the source, as there'd be third parties to rebuild and
compare the result against the published binaries. We're a ways away from
that.

------
iokanuon
Will it be open source? "Free for licensing" isn't quite clear. Will anyone by
able to license access to the source code for free? If yes, what about
forking?

EDIT:

Okay, this isn't what I've hoped for:

>Disclaimer: Remix OS is only licensed to authorized business partners and
pre-loaded on specific product models of those partners;it's not intended for
personal use.

~~~
YngwieMalware
yeah this is not great. moving right along...

~~~
keithpeter
Early adopters in organisations are important.

An .iso you can download gets you those without the 'corporate communications'
problems you get when you have to fill out a form, use language like
'licencing' and then get the official IT department to install stuff.

~~~
YngwieMalware
i would early adopt the heck out of this in a VM but they had to get all weird
about it. not interesting at all in 2016

~~~
ris
I suspect it largely doesn't _exist_ yet. Keep in mind all you see are
probably mockups.

------
tobbyb
I think the potential for the Android desktop is huge, and can threaten Intel
in a serious way. Look at the Amazon Fire TV equipped with a Mediatek 64 bit
quad core A72 + A53 SoC. The same SoC is scheduled to be in Chromebooks
shortly.

This tiny 4 inch by 1 inch box can play 4k at 30fps, provide super fast
internet browsing, Facebook, Youtube, Office apps, video conferencing and play
Android 3D titles well. And it costs 64 Pounds or 90 USD! It geekbenches
1600/3500 which is pretty respectable compared to an Intel i3 which retails
for around $150 just for the CPU. Why spend anything more for grandma's, mum's
or a just a general PC. It also has good support for Kodi so no need for
expensive HTPCs.

So here is a 60 GBP device doing a of lot of thing a traditional basic PC or
laptop does at a fraction of the price, power, noise and size! This is
disruptive.

The only thing holding it back is the absence of proper desktop support in
Android and the relatively closed nature especially GPU of the Arm ecosystem.
Also the PC ecosystem is accustomed to a much more open hardware and software
playing field, and the driver scenario for ARM and Google's control of Android
itself can be problematic.

Android is currently completely touch oriented and even though you can attach
a keyboard and mouse, as the recent Ars review highlights [1] there are quite
a few rough edges.

Remix OS is a step in that direction but it appears some of the issues are
serious enough that only Google can address. A better situation is ARM being
more open, Linux is already well supported on ARM so if it opens up the
drivers in good faith without the back and forth of licensor and licensee that
open source developers deal with, desktop need not depend just on Android.

[1] [http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/12/android-on-the-
deskto...](http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/12/android-on-the-desktop-not-
really-good-but-better-than-youd-think/2/)

~~~
lqdc13
Why would grandma want a desktop instead of a chromebook? And why would a
poweruser or a gamer want an underpowered PC?

This might be good for intermediate/casual/netbook users though or those who
do computing on some remote machine.

~~~
emidln
I'd prefer Android on my Chromebook Pixel (assuming for a second that I didn't
just install Arch Linux on it) instead of having Chrome OS. I'd take a working
Skype + Browser over just a Browser. There aren't any webapps that I really
use that don't have a comparable in quality or better app. Assuming multi-
window works, this would actually just be ChromeOS++ for me.

~~~
digi_owl
Got me thinking about an article that claimed that perhaps the command line
was the better one for older people.

One reason being they could go back and look at previous actions.

Another being how you could only do one thing at a time, and put other stuff
on hold (and was reminded if you wanted to shut down).

The author likened the latter to putting a bill somewhere visible as a
reminder to pay it.

~~~
lqdc13
They also get lost in the GUI in my experience. Too many things that are
clickable or possibly clickable, too much information on the page and they get
overwhelmed.

With CLI, you do have to remember commands and compose things, but somehow it
is easier for them. I am actually always surprised by this. More people should
try to teach their older relatives some CLI magic.

------
cstross
Ironically, if this was available on the Google Pixel C it'd be a compelling
option. (The Pixel C runs Android 6 with no multi-window/multi-app on-screen
capability, which somewhat defeats the object of having such a device -- one
that with a more comprehensive OS would be a potential Surface competitor. And
indeed the Pixel C looks like it was originally designed for ChromeOS.)

------
RivieraKid
Well I'm sceptical you can make a good desktop OS by modifying Android. Major
desktop OSs (including their ecosystems!) have been developed for decades,
there's a lot of depth in their functionality, flexibility, different use
cases. Two of the main issues are that apps designed for Android touch devices
suck on desktop and that the Android SDK is very limited compared to what
deskop OSs offer. Don't get me wrong, I also think that current desktop OSs
suck - it's just that Android-as-a-desktop is not the solution.

~~~
0xFFC
About the sdk point I completely agree. Unless you want somewhat shallow os
There is no way for Android sdk to compete with real world desktop os.

By shallow I mean something which don't have much functionality. This is not
absolutely bad thing.yes most of powey users will not use that ,but for people
who want to chat, browse, and use Skype this is not a bad this.but the point
is these kind of users already leaving desktop after tablets/phone revolution.

~~~
thecupisblue
It's exactly for those users. Android is easy to maintain and hard to fuck up
for the regular user, which is what everyone does with any and all Windows
PCs. And you can't just get a grandma to use Linux.

------
RRRA
I'd rather see the web evolve even further and make "apps" irrelevant and have
a desktop OS on my phone, that respect my privacy, rather than the other way
around... And FOSS!

------
staunch
I want regular Linux on my phone, not Java Linux on my desktop.

~~~
carussell
Why? Serious question.

And what do you mean by "Linux"? Would GNU coreutils and a terminal be
sufficient, or is there something else you need?

~~~
pixelbeat
Yes something like termux might be a sufficient addition to "android". Note a
standard GNU coreutils build is about 15M, though one can configure to use a
multi-call binary like busybox, reducing the install size to about 1M. See the
coreutils-single subpackage in Fedora rawhide for example:
[http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/rpms/coreutils.git/commit...](http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/rpms/coreutils.git/commit/?id=fb9bc470)

~~~
fredrikfornwall
When you 'apt install coreutils' in Termux you get coreutils installed as a
multi-call binary to save space. 1556 kB for the package in total (including
man pages).

------
mariusmg
Yeah, that's what you need on a desktop. A OS designed for "touch" with
"innovative features" (which features were standard on a desktop 25 years
ago).

The UI looks like a uglier clone of ChromeOS.

~~~
fuzzywalrus
Years ago I installed a mouse driver for iOS on a jailbroken iPad 2 on iOS 6,
it more or less worked for most applications that didn't require two finger
gestures. I was able to paint with Brushes and such.

It wasn't a pleasant experience but I was just tinkering to see what it'd be
like. If you like big huge icons, zooming when highlighting, and having to
occasionally touch your screen, I suppose it was good.

I can't imagine its about being a viable desktop OS more than push the
envelope of Android.

------
zer0zzz
Why isn't anyone talking about how the hardware for their ultra tablet is
literally the Surface 2? Did they get a bunch of unsold inventory or did they
just have manufacturing rights to the design?

~~~
bmaupin
Not only that, it's cheaper: $300 for the Remix Ultratablet (64 GB) and $350
for the equivalent Surface 2 on Amazon.

~~~
zer0zzz
Yeah and sadly ms totally screwed up with rt when they had no available
porting strategy for real applications to arm. And now rt is basically on life
support and the rt devices have locked down bootloaders as far as I've heard
which makes them kind of an even worse investment as far as buying a device
goes.

------
mtgx
Google could - and certainly has (even with the latest Pixel C) - do much
worse than RemixOS for the desktop. If they can't come up with any other way
to make Android look good on the desktop, it should at least acquire RemixOS
and go from there.

I'm not a fan of the whole "Android apps inside Chrome OS" idea - it seems
like a very roundabout and complex way to achieve what Android already can by
itself - run over a million Android apps. However, if it does make an Android
Wear-like Android for PCs, I do think Google should retain all control, so it
can update Android for PCs just as easily as it can do with ChromeOS (or as
Microsoft can do with Windows). Google should in no way repeat the update
failure of Android on smartphones.

~~~
efes
I would rather slowly move everything to ChromeOS and abandon android. I find
it ridiculous that I am running an OS from Google with a broken mobile
browser. I also find it more likely that the ChromeOS model could remain
secure despite the contents of the play store than the Android "we aren't
quite sure what we meant to do here" model.

------
ocdtrekkie
I feel like this is what Android would be today if not for Sundar Pichai
killing off Android's laptop project in order to protect Chrome OS. The janky
methodology of having Chrome OS run some Android apps is silly, when this
could've been Google's path.

~~~
bobajeff
"if not for Sundar Pichai killing off Android's laptop project"

This is the first I'm hearing of this. Do you happen to know what the project
was called or anything more specific that I might be able to look up?

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Not any sort of name, but an article on Sundar specifically cited that it was
one of his early moves after taking over Android. I can dig up the source if
you want it, but there's not a lot of additional info there, unfortunately.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
[http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-06-24/googles-
sund...](http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-06-24/googles-sundar-
pichai-king-of-android-master-of-mobile-profile#p4)

"And Pichai killed a project to develop a version of Android for touchscreen
laptops—it overlapped with Chromebooks—shifting attention toward tablets and
new categories such as smart TVs and wearable computers."

~~~
bobajeff
Thanks. The reasoning wasn't terribly sound. (Android and Chrome OS overlap
regardless of the target hardware).

But from a branding perspective it makes sense to distance a immature product
from a widely popular product. (Obviously that wasn't the idea though since
Android Auto, Android TV, Android Wear)

I can also see why they wouldn't want to kill off Chrome OS since it allows
them to experiment with a diverging set of strengths and features that Android
might not be conducive toward. Those strengths could be leveraged in their
other products especially Android.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
The biggest problem, IMHO, is that Windows is now leading the charge for a
converged OS. Ubuntu is talking it too. OS X and iOS are getting better
interconnected in recent versions. Chrome OS's Android app port thing kinda
indicates Google knows it's the future.

Soon it's going to be an expectation that your apps are available on someone's
desktop and their phone. Google shot themselves in the foot here.

------
lnanek2
This link has more info: [http://www.xda-developers.com/jide-announce-multi-
window-and...](http://www.xda-developers.com/jide-announce-multi-window-
android-for-pc-and-mac/)

> Today’s public release of Remix OS, based on Android x86, is something that
> we’ve been working towards since we founded Jide Technology in 2014

So it's a commercial fork of the Android x86 project, basically.

------
jadengore
It seems like a good idea, but of course its not running the latest version of
Android. Most of the problems with Android stem from security updates not
reaching devices in a timely manner, and RemixOS is just another example of a
skin that is behind. Most devices are only on RemixOS 1.5, which is Android
5.0.2.

------
RamenJunkie_
I have the Remix PC from the Kickstarter.

It's basically a Raspberry Pi sized PC (in a case) that runs Remix OS.

Honestly, I rather like it though I have not used it a ton. I got the most use
out of it when I was traveling for work a few months back, I took it with me
to the hotel and hooked it to the TV and got my first real use out of it.

As for why I have not used it a ton, the HDMI out on it doesn't support my
"Dumb cable" HDMI to DVI cable. So I have to hook it to a TV to use it, HDMI
to HDMI, which is annoying at best. If I could hook it to a regular PC monitor
on my desk I'd probably use it pretty regularly as a secondary machine.

Most of the apps I tried on it worked fine, Netflix, TuneIn Radio, Amazon
Music, Hearthstone, Fallout Shelter. It hooks to your Google Play account so
you get all the apps you already have purchased there.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Quite a large number of "regular PC monitors" these days ship with HDMI ports,
as many desktop PCs have HDMI as well. You can usually find a decent monitor
for about $99 with an HDMI port.

------
rubyn00bie
Awesome.

This sort of thing is what makes me hopeful for a Linux desktop one day-- that
I actually enjoy using. I'm really excited to give this a try.

Does anyone know where to download or when it'll be available? Doesn't seem to
be available yet?

~~~
ocdtrekkie
It looks like it's available to flash on some Nexus devices, and their own
tablet is shipping within the next month or so:
[http://www.jide.com/en/remixos/devices](http://www.jide.com/en/remixos/devices)

~~~
michaelmior
While I'm skeptical about using RemiXOS on a desktop machine, the tablet looks
really nice.

------
solotronics
This is really cool. What is the target audience? I have been thinking of
making a custom in car computer and this seems better than a linux distro for
that purpose.

~~~
iokanuon
>Disclaimer: Remix OS is only licensed to authorized business partners and
pre-loaded on specific product models of those partners;it's not intended for
personal use.

Source:
[http://www.jide.com/en/partnerships](http://www.jide.com/en/partnerships)

~~~
dizzyviolet
Available in 5 days for download for anyone to use at jide.com

------
fuddle
Not bad for the price tag - $69.99

------
jakhead
A Core i7 outperformed a Samsung Galaxy. Fascinating...

------
rhodin
Will it run on a phone so that I can connect a monitor to the phone and use it
as a desktop OS, and then disconnect and use it as a phone OS?

~~~
dharma1
this will - [https://insights.ubuntu.com/2015/10/20/ubuntus-path-to-
conve...](https://insights.ubuntu.com/2015/10/20/ubuntus-path-to-convergence/)

~~~
carussell
The problem with Canonical is that it looks like they started working from the
wrong end of the stick. So long as you make it to your pre-defined convergence
point, what does it matter if you start with Ubuntu and try to evolve it
towards mobile, or start with Android and work the other way? The difference
is that if they'd taken the latter approach, they could've probably already
reached it by now. Instead, they set themselves up to fight an uphill battle,
alone, and get bogged down with a bunch of diversions wrt to Unity and Mir and
systemd, which, in the grand scheme of things, should have only appeared as
pit stops along the way. It's silly.

------
gdamjan1
So basically, as I see it, RemixOS is a "window manager" and a custom launcher
(with their notifications) for Android ?

------
yalogin
Can I run in this in a VM? That would be the easiest way for me to try this. I
don't want to buy new hardware to try the OS.

~~~
Sujan
Site says you can boot it from an USB stick. So should work in a VM, too.

------
printhellonerd
Where is the downloading link of the OS for PC?

~~~
arthurfm
There isn't one. Remix OS 2.0 is due to be released on 12th January 2016 [1].

[1] [http://www.xda-developers.com/jide-announce-multi-window-
and...](http://www.xda-developers.com/jide-announce-multi-window-android-for-
pc-and-mac/)

------
leke
I'm disappointed there is no download available. This news seems a little
premature.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I'm surprised they didn't have a download reminder option - they must have
noticed a traffic spike. There's not even a part that says "download is not
yet available" which is annoying; perhaps they want people to search the site
for the download though, maybe that's good for them somehow.

------
daveloyall
The licensing seems to make this a non-starter. But let's suppose they must
fix that. (This is pretty clearly a derived product...?)

We'll need a proper ARM desktop... How about one based on AMD's A1100? :)

~~~
sowbug
By "derived product" do you mean an obligation to open-source? If yes, there
isn't any: Android is licensed Apache 2.0.
[https://source.android.com/source/licenses.html](https://source.android.com/source/licenses.html)

~~~
frik
Read the first sentence:

"The Android Open Source Project uses a few open source initiative approved
open source licenses for our software"

Android is based on a fork of the Linux kernel which is GNU GPL v2. RemixOS
should release their code, it contains several GNU GPL parts.

~~~
hollerith
That's not how that GPL works. To be precise, although there might be a (very
small) chance that a court has found or will find that software running in
user space is a derived work of the kernel, that finding would not apply to
_Linux_ 's user space because Linus declared (in the 1990s) that the
conditions of Linux's license do not apply to user space.

Tivo was one of the first owners of proprietary software to test this area of
the law: their devices ran Linux, but they never had to publish the source
code for the software on their devices that ran in user space.

The distributors of RemixOS _would_ have to publish the source code to any
changes they make to the kernel itself, but someone else in the comments says
they have made none.

------
henryscala
I like the idea. If developing android app using multiple programming
languages is also capable in this OS, it would be more exciting.

~~~
bcook
RemixOS supports apps from the Play Store.

------
drakmail
How I could left email for further notifications about RemixOS status? It
seems very interesting OS for me :)

------
Fastidious
This is very nice, and priced just right. Could easily replace the desktop of
just about everyone in my family.

~~~
davidcollantes
Indeed. The device covers the needs of half of the faculty at my college.
Their version of Android looks very polished.

------
cJ0th
2016 - Year of the Android Desktop ;)

------
supercoder
Why would I want this when I can just use OSX on the desktop ?

~~~
skrowl
One big reason, at least for me: Because OS X is the least secure desktop OS -
[http://venturebeat.com/2015/12/31/software-with-the-most-
vul...](http://venturebeat.com/2015/12/31/software-with-the-most-
vulnerabilities-in-2015-mac-os-x-ios-and-flash/)

I also enjoy the openness of Android and the fact that it works on a large
variety of hardware.

In all seriousness though, if this works as well as their little launch video
show it working, 2016 could REALLY be the year of desktop linux. 'This year /
next year is the year of desktop linux!' is a long running joke, but this
could really be it.

~~~
supercoder
That's like saying I'd rather eat shit for breakfast because it's possible to
get food poisoning from eggs.

------
zouhair
Their tablet looks nice too.

~~~
livejamie
It's not very powerful, but pretty nice entry-level machine.

------
gosukiwi
Interesting. I doubt this can be used as a development environment yet though.

------
pearjuice
Android barely works on smartphones.

~~~
ConAntonakos
Come on...

