
CHIP $9 Computer - unusximmortalis
https://getchip.com/pages/chip
======
Aissen
More like the $15.22 computer with shipping. And said shipping cost is hidden
at the third stage of ordering, well after you've given your email (hello dark
pattern).

At least the $6.22 shipping cost to my European country is reasonable and the
same for two CHIPs (3: $7, 4: $9, 5: $11). I recall it was much higher during
the kickstarter (and they worked to reduce it, as it seems on the campaign
page).

 _Edit_ : PockeCHIP shipping is $11

~~~
out_of_protocol
You can get Orange Pi One for ~$14 with delivery - which looks more powerful

[http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Orange-Pi-One-ubuntu-linux-
an...](http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Orange-Pi-One-ubuntu-linux-and-android-
mini-PC-Beyond-and-Compatible-with-Raspberry-Pi-2/32603308880.html)

~~~
arm
They say the 5V ⎓ 3A power supply needs to be connected through the Orange Pi
One’s DC socket. However, they don’t mention the size of barrel connector¹
(outer diameter & inner diameter) that will actually fit inside the DC socket.

Does anyone here know?

――――――

¹ —
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector)

~~~
makomk
4.0mm/1.7mm barrel plug, centre positive according to [http://linux-
sunxi.org/Xunlong_Orange_Pi_Plus](http://linux-
sunxi.org/Xunlong_Orange_Pi_Plus) \- I think it's the same on all of the
Orange Pi boards.

~~~
arm
Oh, nice, thanks for that link and info! As you mentioned, the page even lists
the output plug polarity¹ it requires (centre positive)!

EDIT: Just realized that’s the same size barrel connector used for Sony’s
PlayStation Portable², PlayStation TV³, etc., and the power supply⁴ those
devices come with is 5V ⎓ 2A and have a centre positive polarity, so it seems
like they’ll be perfect for use on the Orange Pi One.

――――――

¹ —
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarity_symbols](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarity_symbols)

² —
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_Portable](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_Portable)

³ —
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_TV](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_TV)

⁴ —
[http://f.cl.ly/items/3I3N1m0U1E3o3I1q0v19/sony_ps_tv_ac_adap...](http://f.cl.ly/items/3I3N1m0U1E3o3I1q0v19/sony_ps_tv_ac_adaptor.JPG)

~~~
wyldfire
Don't DC power jacks come keyed for at least voltage/polarity?

If not -- why‽

~~~
khedoros
They come in various shapes, varying on inner diameter, outer diameter, and
length. Smaller connectors may tend to be lower voltage, but that's certainly
always true.

There are several standards, and at least some of them specify voltage ranges
for particular sizes, but there's no universal standard.

List of plug sizes and their common uses:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector#Listin...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector#Listing_of_DC_coaxial_connectors)

------
codemonkeymike
By being/attempting to be the "low cost leader" really brings out the worst
people in comments. People who complain about shipping and packaging and the
price on other sites and the price of other products, on and on and on. You
couldn't pay me to be in such a market I feel bad for those who provide a
cheap service or product and then get the worst feedback one could get.

~~~
pandog
If your tag line is "The World's first $9 computer" I don't think it's totally
unreasonable for people to point out that you have to pay more than $9 to get
the thing.

~~~
yardie
Who are these people that aren't aware that taxes, shipping, and duties are a
thing?

They must be Amazon Prime members.

~~~
wolfgke
> Who are these people that aren't aware that taxes, shipping, and duties are
> a thing?

Not every international person knows what is usual in the US. For example in
Germany prices are always including taxes.

~~~
xolve
Its in India as well. Usually shipping is free or mentioned separately.

------
SloopJon
Can't remember whether I've seen this before. A few details after reading
through some of the docs:

    
    
      * powered by Allwinner R8 (ARM Cortex-A8) with some proprietary bits
      * Debian-based CHIP O/S preinstalled on 4 GB flash
      * one micro USB port for power (supports USB OTG if powered by battery)
      * power connector for battery
      * one USB 2.0 port
      * one TRRS port for audio and composite video
      * built-in WiFi and Bluetooth
      * VGA adapter available for $10
      * HDMI adapter available for $15 (no audio)
      * case available for $2

~~~
messel
That's wild. The computer is cheaper than the adapters.

~~~
gmazza
Freebie marketing, a.k.a. razor and blades business model? [0]

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freebie_marketing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freebie_marketing)

~~~
anilgulecha
No, because clearly the CHIP is usable without adapters, and provides the main
functionality.

~~~
rdslw
Yes,

because on every image on main page (row with three possible use scenarios)
it's shown as connected to a display.

This _IS_ freebie marketing.

~~~
nitrogen
The bare board has a composite video output.

------
donquichotte
It's interesting that they distribute the "CHIP Flasher" as a Chrome app. It
seems very user friendly but somewhat opaque. And it's a pity there's not much
info on the hardware.

Anyway, I've ordered two pieces. They're probably going to gather dust
alongside my Raspberry Pis and Arduinos once the initial excitement has worn
off. :)

[EDIT] OK there's lots of info on the hardware, just not easy to find on their
sales page: [https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-
Hardware/](https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-Hardware/)

~~~
nraynaud
Made a chrome app myself, for a reason that might seem odd. It fulfills the
java promise: write once run everywhere, and access more stuff than java
(bluetooth, USB, serial etc.)

~~~
saiya-jin
surprising as it might sound, not everybody is using Chrome. my parents don't
have it, I don't use it, fiancee the same. Firefox all around. because big
brother google and no visible advantage over Firefox.

~~~
BHSPitMonkey
It's easy to get Chromium on any platform. It's harder to say that for Java,
or native apps that the author may or may not know how to build and support
across OSes.

------
pmorici
I'm having a hard time finding a reason why I would buy this over the
Raspberry Pi. Like others have said for this to be useful as a general purpose
computer you need to buy add-on boards for video. Compare that to the RPi Zero
which is $5 bucks and includes an HDMI port. You can easily add a USB ethernet
or wifi adapter to the zero for under 4 bucks and have a real $9 computer.

Not to mention the CHIP uses an AllWinner processor which has a record of not
playing well with open source and a history of security issues.

~~~
snarfy
The CHIP has much better audio support than the Pi. The Pi does not even have
an ADC. The CHIP has a 24 bit ADC. I could see it being used in audio engineer
applications where a Pi would not work.

~~~
supernintendo
This is pretty much what sold me on CHIP. With PocketCHIP, my dreams of a
handheld Linux computer with audio editing capabilities can finally come true.

------
mavci
Why is HDMI adapter worth $15? It's like create a hardware and split expensive
parts and sell with low price marketing. It's not $9 computer, It's actually
~$35

~~~
pawadu
Maybe because there are tons of patents on HDMI cables?

    
    
        US6932640	Oct 22, 2004	Aug 23, 2005	Yun-Ching Sung	HDMI connector
        US7059914	Feb 20, 2004	Jun 13, 2006	Advanced Connectek, Inc.	HDMI plug connector
        US7192310	May 16, 2006	Mar 20, 2007	Cheng Uei Precision Industry Co., Ltd.	HDMI connector
        US20060148319	Mar 3, 2006	Jul 6, 2006	Advanced Connectek Inc.	HDMI type electrical connector assembly
        US8500489	Jul 15, 2010	Aug 6, 2013	Luxi Electronics Corp.	HDMI locking connectors

~~~
snarfy
What does the cable have to do with it? The HDMI adapter even says "does not
come with cable". If you are talking about the connector, they are $0.43 each
on digikey.

If the rest of the HDMI adapter board looks anything like the VGA adapter,
with just passives and a connector, then they would be making a profit
charging only $3 for it, let alone the $15 they are asking.

~~~
unwiredben
Based on the BOM at [https://github.com/NextThingCo/DIP-HDMI-
PCB/blob/master/v1.0...](https://github.com/NextThingCo/DIP-HDMI-
PCB/blob/master/v1.0/BOM/BOM-DIP-HDMI-v1.0.pdf), you've got a Chrontel CH7035B
HDMI interface chip, a serial EEPROM (probably used for EDID/HDCP key
storage), and a LDO power supply for those chips. That definitely counts for
the additional cost.

------
thom_nic
I was an early Kickstarter backer and got mine right around the beginning of
2016. For me the sweet spot was small size, and WiFi. Note this was before The
RPi3 was announced with onboard Wifi. CHIP had an early issue with flash
corruption (no surprise there are always some issues with v1 hardware) but
seem to have that sorted out with a firmware fix and mine has been running
without issue for weeks.

Compared to the original RPi which required an $11 WiFi USB dongle and a
powered USB hub this is a lot simpler. I primarily used it as a headless
sensor node or wireless/networked LCD display. It's perfect for that and still
one of the lower-cost options even after shipping $$.

Their documentation ([http://docs.getchip.com/](http://docs.getchip.com/)) and
forum are actually pretty great. I think this will be a good contender if/
when they reach general availability.

------
SwellJoe
I've been waiting for the PocketCHIP to become reality before ordering
anything. It looks like they're planning to ship this month, so it might be
time to order.

I love that it includes a game dev kit that includes a music tracker...that's
what I want it for. I have an original GameBoy for making music with LSDJ, and
it's a lot of fun. But, it is difficult to find good condition GameBoys for
anything approaching a reasonable price these days. I'd love to have something
a bit more modern with the same basic feel and sound.

The PocketCHIP has the advantage of having a "real" computer inside and a
QWERTY keyboard, so if I get bored with four note polyphony, I could run
something like SchismTracker or SunVox or whatever. It is in the sweet spot
for me for this kind of device, in a way that the Raspberry Pi hasn't been
(though the Pi is cool, too).

~~~
thisisandyok
I backed the KS at the PocketCHIP level. My PocketCHIP arrived Monday, FWIW.

~~~
FroshKiller
Hey, so did I! I haven't gotten mine yet, but I'm very pleased to hear that
they're arriving already. Thanks for commenting!

~~~
thisisandyok
Sure thing. It took about two weeks to arrive after I received the shipping
notification

------
pi-rat
Still waiting for the CHIPs i ordered several months ago :/

~~~
akman
Also waiting on mine from a little over 6 months ago (the Black Friday deal).
It's supposed to ship sometime this month according to when I purchased it.
But really, at $8 (+shipping), I see it as one of those things that if it
comes, it comes.

------
codezero
I'm stoked for the PocketCHIP.

~~~
fit2rule
Hell yeah, me too. Its the latest in a very cool line of portable Linux
machines designed for hackers to have a hell of a lot of fun. I hope that it
is successful, and sits alongside other successes such as the Open Pandora
(and soon: Pyra) as an example of how to do a portable, open, fun platform
based on Linux, away from all the walled gardens and app jails that are
prevalent on the other pocketable platforms.

There is one thing that bothers me, however. With the Open Pandora, the
community has been amazing - and much of that has been because the focus is on
developers^3. The online repo of apps for the OpenPandora is a true treasure
trove of amazing things (see
[http://repo.openpandora.org/](http://repo.openpandora.org/)) - an app store
done right, in that you have total freedom to do whatever you want with the
platform, but you can also just have the plug 'n play experience of browsing a
well-curated and maintained list of apps, which can be installed with a single
click - no BOFH'ism required. The Pandora has proven to be a very good balance
of free and curated apps. Developers can make money as well, if they choose
to, and for the most part the community has been very remunerative towards the
key devs pushing the platform forward.

However, this doesn't seem to be a key strategy for the guys behind CHIP, who
are a bit behind the ball with setting up a common, community-focused
repository for developers to contribute to .. alas, it seems that its going to
be a total free-for-all with CHIP development. The best we will have is "at
least we can push our own .deb's up on a website somewhere to distribute our
software".

I seriously hope that, when the PocketCHIP starts to launch (its trickling out
now, will be ramping up towards the end of the month), the NextThing guys will
realize that they've got to get on top of this issue before someone else does
- it'd be quite feasible, for example, to turn on a "PocketCHIP apps" section
of repo.openpandora.org, and if NextThing doesn't do it - someone will. Such
is the nature of the Open Handheld community.

As a developer and user, I'd much rather have an 'official' repo, with curated
apps and quality control for the end user, than just a free-for-all wild
frontier of .deb's being passed around by all and sundry.

Actually, what I'd really like to see happen is the guys behind the OS for the
Open Pandora/Pyra consoles work in coordination with the NextThing team, so
that maybe - just maybe - all systems could be running the same basic OS core.
There really isn't any good reason for this _not_ to happen - its only because
of politics and control issues and NIMBY'ism/DRY'ishness that its not on the
table at the moment.

~~~
tluyben2
> Actually, what I'd really like to see happen is the guys behind the OS for
> the Open Pandora/Pyra consoles work in coordination with the NextThing team,
> so that maybe - just maybe - all systems could be running the same basic OS
> core.

Exactly. I would say now the Pyra will run Debian instead of Angstrom and Chip
runs a Debian as well there could be an option of unifying. Angstrom was kind
of horrible to work with IMHO; I use my Pandora a lot but from a Debian
chroot.

~~~
fit2rule
Totally agree with you. Could this be the first stages of seeing a unified
Debian system for open Linux mobile systems? That'd be coool.

~~~
tluyben2
That would be excellent indeed. And now there is not much reason not to.
Mobile systems (and enough embedded as well) have enough storage/memory now to
run those systems and Debian has no issue installing .debs on different
partitions or drives. Basically the core packages can be on the internal flash
drive and others on the SD drive which would've worked fine for the Pandora
too.

------
Illniyar
The chip has been on HN on and off for months. Is there something new
happening?

~~~
digi_owl
General availability of the Pocketchip dock?

------
jetskindo
This is amazing. Just need to figure out how I can attach a battery to it and
everything in my house will be a computer.

~~~
digi_owl
[http://docs.getchip.com/chip.html#chip-
hardware](http://docs.getchip.com/chip.html#chip-hardware)

First image shows a battery connector top right.

------
jokoon
I'd prefer such product if I can just power it and control it over SSH. I
don't really need an actual screen plug, as I would not use a home screen on
such a tiny thing: it doesn't make sense.

Although the rasbperry pi zero seems interesting, I don't know if I can plug a
minimalist, small and cheap screen on a mini-hdmi. Overall there is no point
using a classic screen on such tiny devices.

This seems to compete with the raspberry pi zero, and RPi zero doesn't have
wifi.

~~~
cstuder
Documentation for using the CHIP headless:
[http://docs.getchip.com/chip.html#headless-
chip](http://docs.getchip.com/chip.html#headless-chip)

~~~
makomk
Yeah. One of the nice things about CHIP is that in theory (mine hasn't shipped
yet) you can just plug it into your computer over USB right out the box, open
a serial terminal to it and configure it that way, no messing around with SD
cards etc. The Pi Zero can't do that because it requires an SD card and also
the driver support for USB-OTG is poor and requires manual configuration of
device mode.

~~~
johncalvinyoung
Not just in theory--that's precisely how I got mine (I KSed it, and got my
pair at least two months ago) booted up and configured for the first time.
Super easy, in fact--way easier to bootstrap than a RPi (I ordered a RPi 3
some time since).

------
MistahKoala
Would be helpful if they were more transparent about shipping. I'm not going
to go through the motions of pre-ordering just to find out what the total
costs are.

------
newman314
I bought one for June delivery, hopefully it shows up.

What bums me out is that there is no easy board that I can find of the (get
chip, pi zero ilk) that comes with an ethernet port. I know I can get a
regular Pi but it's too much for my use case.

On a related note, I've been looking for a low cost smart power plug with
ethernet (10/100/1000) without much success. If anyone knows of such a beast,
please let me know.

IMO, $80 for something like this [https://www.amazon.com/ezOutlet-Internet-IP-
Enabled-Android-...](https://www.amazon.com/ezOutlet-Internet-IP-Enabled-
Android-
Interface/dp/B00KQ4R1RK/ref=pd_sim_23_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=41LIb75CyNL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=WD0CR2WX3Q6NYFV37YRC)
is too much

~~~
5ilv3r
A regular pi has a USB ethernet device, so really you will not lose any speed
by using a usb dongle on any sbc.

~~~
newman314
Speed isn't the issue here. Having an ethernet port is.

------
manmal
Did they really use a banana for scale?

------
znpy
I made a group order for 40 CHIP computers. I was definitely pissed off by the
fact that I could only order five of them at the time (but there was no limit
on the number of order I could place).

I am looking forward for them to start delivering.

I hope that VAT won't be too high.

~~~
Someone1234
Just because I'm nosy, what do you have intended for your 40 CHIPs? Education?

~~~
znpy
As I said, I made a group order. I gathered orders by many people (mostly
friends) and ordered.

------
matthewaveryusa
Does anyone know if one of the USB slots can act as a client while the other
as a host? I can't seem to find any documentation with that level of detail.

edit: looks like one of them can run in OTG mode (i.e client), that's
wonderful!

------
tluyben2
Anyone know what is that vertical scroll shmup on the image above the gaming
header?

~~~
musha68k
Looks like Psikyo's Aero Fighters to me. The proportions seem off though, so
most likely a PAL console port played on NTSC TV and/or a sub-optimal emulator
config we see there :)

Great game and astonishing feat for a $9 computer!

------
lil1729
I still can't see a full spec for the soc. Without that, _to me_ , this is
uninteresting. Sorry. Perhaps others have different priorities. Having a fully
hackable $9 computer would have been a wonderful thing to me.

~~~
unwiredben
[https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-
Hardware/tree/master/CHI...](https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-
Hardware/tree/master/CHIP\[v1_0\]/CHIPv1_0-BOM-Datasheets)

------
zhte415
A big market for these that doesn't seem to be mentioned is the potential for
business presentation use: sales, training, basically anything in an office.

Why carry a laptop, when the location you're going to has a projector screen
you'll use, and likely has a keyboard (or carry a portable input device), and
a power supply. And your files are cached on your favourite cloud.

Make a nice looking case for these, and they're impressive novelties, lighter
than the lightest laptop, and probably a bit more stable than driving a
projector from a phone.

~~~
schoen
There's a clever feature in the Optoma Pico Pocket Projectors where you can
store presentations inside the projector, or on removable media that the
projector can read directly. So you can present from the projector itself
without an external device.

Of course, the projector currently doesn't run a general-purpose operating
system, so your suggestion is more useful if you need to do something beyond
showing slides or video.

------
tmaly
I ordered a CHIP over a year ago with the VGA adapter. I think it should be
shipping soon. I sort of now wish I had went with the HDMI adapter as I do not
have too many VGA systems these days.

------
dboreham
I ordered these the day they announced. Not sure if mine have shipped yet.
Excited to see them.

------
LandoCalrissian
I ordered mine in November, when are they actually planning on shipping?

------
rbanffy
It's a bit frustrating there is no easy way to change the shipping address
after the preorder.

------
LeonidBugaev
Can I start using CHIP without a display? Like ssh access when connected to
USB or via Bluetooth?

~~~
jboynyc
cstuder already answered this questions below:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11908011](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11908011)

------
durpleDrank
Do they keep costs down because they are using conflict minerals?
[http://enoughproject.org/special-topics/progress-and-
challen...](http://enoughproject.org/special-topics/progress-and-challenges-
conflict-minerals-facts-dodd-frank-1502)

------
ruffrey
I ordered one. With tax and shipping to Northern California, it was over $16.

------
mvdanj
Is it shipping soon ?

------
avodonosov
where to get time to play with all the toys....

------
vegabook
CHIP's $9 pitch is nothing special anymore, with that Rpi device for $5 now,
but the PocketCHIP wrapper is still a strong USP. Here is an IoT device where
you don't need a soldering iron to actually get basic, useful stuff going.

------
Annatar
Impressive hardware, but UGH!, not yet-another-Linux powered computer! If I
had the time, I'd port illumos to it myself, but since I don't, Linux on this
thing makes it a non-starter for me.

~~~
ytjohn
As someone who spent years maintaining Solaris systems, it always amazes me
that there are people out there that like Solaris.

Especially in the context of a hobby/experimental system.

~~~
Annatar
I love Solaris (except Oracle Solaris 11, which I really dislike!), and I love
illumos and SmartOS even more.

I grew up on Solaris - my first ever UNIX was a Solaris 2.5.1 system on a
SPARCStation 20. I've been running Solaris on intel since my first Pentium 90
workstation on Solaris 2.5.1.

Since I know how to build and package software for Solaris, I have everything
I could ever want or need on it. It's a comfortable system, and it's elegant,
once one fully understands all of its capabilities. And it's extremely
reliable and high performance, especially on intel based processors.

For some context, I am _forced_ to work on Linux and I spend my entire working
day working on it. Compared to reliability of Solaris and ease of use, I have
grown to dislike Linux in the extreme. If you are thinking, "but that is
insane, Linux is so great, how is that possible!", remember that I grew up on
UNIX, so I have different criteria for what is comfortable and reliable (even
in terms of development) than your average Linux user or Linux system
administrator does. I dislike the GNU tools and user land (with very few
notable exceptions) because I'm used to AT&T System V tools and that is how I
expect the tools to behave; GNU tool chain usually frustrates me to no end.
Working with Linux frustrates me to no end (I do professional development and
system engineering on it).

For example: --some-long-option comes to mind, or lack of proper manual pages
("see the texinfo page"), lack of backwards compatibility support, tar -z (tar
is a tape archiver, not a compressor!), and so on, and so on... I miss my ZFS,
I miss my mdb, I miss my dbx, I miss my SMF, I miss my fmadm, I miss the
simple and effective handling of storage area network logical units, I miss
the fiberchannel stack which actually works... I don't have any of those
issues on illumos based systems, but it drives the point home:

the last thing I want is yet another Linux based computer. I have enough of
that as it is at work - almost 71,000 servers, 49% of them running Linux, and
it sucks.

~~~
figgis
>For example: --some-long-option comes to mind, or lack of proper manual pages
("see the texinfo page"),

What are you even talking about here? man/info works wonderfully, if I want
more readable information a terminal sure as hell isn't going to give it to me
easier than searching a wiki. And solaris absolutely had problems with
documentation on their larger packages.

> lack of backwards compatibility support

Hardly even a real issue if you actually maintain your damn systems more than
once every half decade.

>tar -z (tar is a tape archiver, not a compressor!)

... It still is a tape archiver AND a compresser AND a 100 different but
completely valid and usable things.

ZFS absolutely is usable.

Why do you enjoy DBX over GDB?

SMF? One would think you would love and embrace systemd.

FibreChannel stack that works?
[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/InfiniBand](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/InfiniBand)

I can't refute all that you have said here since I am not familiar with all of
it. But, have you considered you are just doing it the wrong/difficult way?

~~~
Annatar
Manual pages on traditional UNIX systems are extremely detailed and contain
lots of good, usable examples, and Solaris / illumos based operating systems
really shine in this area. People who grew up on a real UNIX expect to find
comprehensive, high quality documentation in the manual pages in a terminal
session. This feature was driven hard by enterprise customers and professional
system administrators in times when wikis did not exist, and even today the
quality of the content in some arbitrary wiki written by _someone on the
internet when they felt like it_ is dubious in comparison to manual pages
written by people with formal education in engineering and technical writing!

Like I wrote before, on UNIX we have different expectations in different areas
than what people are used to and accept as given on Linux. The focus is
different on UNIX.

Apropos dbx versus gdb: dbx has a 1,000 page manual, and makes it really easy
to step through assembler code while listing the original source. How many
pages of documentation does gdb have again? On top of that, gdb doesn't even
fully support my OS, I don't think gdb properly supports anything that is not
Linux... hmmm, that reminds me an awful lot of Microsoft Windows monoculture.

systemd versus SMF: systemd is a shoddy copy of SMF with a Windows twist,
trying to replace every service in the system. Unlike SMF, which is part of
the fault management architecture, which is part of self-healing technology,
systemd has no such concept, self-healing and a contract filesystem is science
fiction for systemd. SMF watches over services, but it doesn't try to replace
them; "do one thing, and do it well."

InfiniBand is a different technology than fiberchannel.

~~~
figgis
To get full GDB documentation you need to use info gdb, the man page states
that itself. Man pages are quite limited correct, so they offered a better
solution just like what you are looking for... Not sure what the issue is
here. The amount of documentation is massive, 2321 lines of text in an easy to
browse format...

GDB also works on a large amount of computers. Windows, Linux, netbsd, etc.

>>>However, its use is not strictly limited to the GNU operating system; it is
a portable debugger that runs on many Unix-like systems and works for many
programming languages, including Ada, C, C++, Objective-C, Free Pascal,
Fortran, Java[1] and partially others. [0]

>hmmm, that reminds me an awful lot of Microsoft Windows monoculture.

What? Actually they support windows, which is exactly the opposite of what you
are trying to say here... I use GDB DAILY on windows (work.) with zero issues.

I'll agree that perhaps systemd doesn't cover all use cases or wants. But
calling it a shoddy copy of SMF with a windows twist is disingenuous. I don't
care for the for or against systemd arguments but after the initial
reaction/learning phase when pulling away from upstart/sysv/init based
shit/etc, many of us are actually starting to warm up to systemd. It handles
services wonderfully, it handles logs wonderfully, perhaps it's a bit bloated
whatever you can always revert to what you want if you decide to spend the
time to actually do it.

>InfiniBand is a different technology than fiberchannel.

Fair enough, i'll have to read up more on it than.

You are making quite a lot of generalizations without doing proper research.
If you want to be stuck in your "In the old days us Unix people had it right!"
mindset than this discussion is pointless. Otherwise I would love to continue
butting heads on this.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Debugger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Debugger)

~~~
Annatar
> To get full GDB documentation you need to use info gdb, the man page states
> that itself. Man pages are quite limited correct,

`info gdb` is completely unacceptable, and an outrage: standard documentation
on UNIX are manual pages, not to mention that systems other than GNU/Linux do
not use GNU info.

> Man pages are quite limited correct,

Incorrect; manual pages are rendered by the _nroff document typesetting
system_. Entire books have been typeset for printing with nroff. Case in
point: the UNIX Text Processing book, the AWK book, the ANSI C book. The
system is extremely flexible and very powerful, once one understands what is
going on. When you hold the printed versions of these books in your hand, you
can see that they are beautifully typeset and rendered. Brought to you by the
same programs which render UNIX manual pages when you type `man some_command`!

What you see on the screen (on UNIX, cannot vouch for Linux) when you type
`man ls` is an actual professional typesetting system rendering the content
for stdout instead of a printing press!

> I don't care for the for or against systemd arguments but after the initial
> reaction/learning phase when pulling away from upstart/sysv/init based
> shit/etc, many of us are actually starting to warm up to systemd.

That's because you haven't had the opportunity to enjoy SMF. When you've
worked with SMF, systemd looks like a cobbled-together toy. For example,
systemd turns ASCII logs into binary format, just like on Windows. This in
turn goes against the UNIX philosophy of

 _Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal
interface._ [McIlroy]

[http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/ch01s06.html](http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/ch01s06.html)

> You are making quite a lot of generalizations without doing proper research.

That's is quite ironic, telling that to someone who does professional system
engineering and software development on GNU/Linux for a living. I have been
doing UNIX and Linux professsionally since 1993, and working with computers in
general since 1984, how many years is that? I spend every waking moment of
what free time I have researching UNIX and Linux. To tell me that I'm
"generalizing without doing proper research" just because I am not succumbing
to GNU/Linux group think is what one could call disingenuous.

~~~
figgis
I'll admit, perhaps I am wrong in the greater picture of things here. But you
are also wrong on some points. Particularly man pages being superior to info.
troff/nroff markup is needlessly complex compared to Tex. You can also use
your vi keys in info as well.. Perhaps you can just boil this down to being
comfortable using man pages, but info pages provide more options and usability
when it comes to created documentation, that's just a simple fact. If you have
trouble quickly finding the information you need when using info, consider
reading the info info page ;).

In fact TeX is used/preferred over nroff/others for a huge majority of
physics/mathematics academic journals. And quite a bit outside of it. [0 - 3]

I will admit for stuff I already know and understand enough of to be
considered proficient with it, man pages can be quicker. For something I just
installed and still need to learn info pages provide a much better platform.

You may find the following link enjoyable to skim through.
[http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/77514/what-is-gnu-
in...](http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/77514/what-is-gnu-info-for)

> What you see on the screen (on UNIX, cannot vouch for Linux) when you type
> `man ls` is an actual professional typesetting system rendering the content
> for stdout instead of a printing press!

Love the enthusiasm but (La)TeX falls into that description as well.

> That's because you haven't had the opportunity to enjoy SMF.

Maybe, I've put it on my list of things to tinker with more. Thanks for the
link.

> That's is quite ironic [...] I am not succumbing to GNU/Linux group think is
> what one could call disingenuous

I don't care about you succumbing to any group think or whatever other word
you can come up with. I am trying to show you why it is actually superior in
many ways. Just because you are comfortable with nroff absolutely 100% does
not make it better. To put it simply, you may be a professional
system/software engineer but if you can't keep up with why these systems are
considered (and shown to be) better than what you have now than you will just
continue to be frustrated/fall behind.

[0]
[http://www.math.ucla.edu/~tao/submissions.html](http://www.math.ucla.edu/~tao/submissions.html)
[1] [https://www.overleaf.com/gallery/tagged/academic-
journal](https://www.overleaf.com/gallery/tagged/academic-journal) [2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTeX](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTeX) [3]
[http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/ch18s03.html](http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/ch18s03.html)

~~~
Annatar
[http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/77514/what-is-gnu-
in...](http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/77514/what-is-gnu-info-for)

Quoting from the link above:

 _ADDENDUM: While not strictly relevant to the question, note that man pages
are still considered the standard documentation system on free Unix-like
systems like those running atop the Linux kernel and also the various BSD
flavors. For example, the Debian package templates encourage the addition of a
man page for any commands, and also lintian checks for a man page. Texinfo is
still not widely used outside the GNU project._

Which I can confirm and concur with. Long story short, I would forget GNU
info, because it is an invention not suitable to the task at hand, which is
efficient and fast lookup of information in a reference manual.

