
Firefighting foam leaves toxic legacy in Californians’ drinking water - mitchelldeacon9
https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-08/firefighting-foam-leaves-toxic-legacy-california-water
======
ubertoop
I grew up approximately 2.5 miles from a major rocket manufacturer. We're
talking R&D and manufacturing of jet propulsion and rocket systems since the
80s.

They totally polluted the water tables in the area with by-products of rocket
fuel and other industrial chemicals used to clean engines.

They were fined in the 90s and supposedly worked with local water authorities
to setup a filtration system... but decades later, they're still finding the
pollutants are actually SPREADING to adjacent water tables in communities
miles from the original location.

Even worse... many women from the community I grew up in have developed
strange autoimmune disorders in their 40s and 50s. Like, a truly abnormal
number of them. Many of these women are upper middle class, health conscious,
non-smokers, including many athletes. Among those disorders, one of the common
ones is issues with their thyroid.

Turns out that one of the major byproducts of rocket combustion - if consumed
- is known to fuck up your thyroid.

Am I saying that I know for sure that the pollution of the water tables caused
all these women to develop these strange disorders? I can't say for sure. I
respect the scientific process and I certainly don't want to jump to any
unfair or drastic conclusions, but it seems likely.

As recently as 2011 the area was again hit with a $60 million fine for
cleanup. A slap on the wrists for the level of ecological damage they've
caused. The water basin in this area is permanently damaged, and seems (even
after decades or rain fail) to still be seeping into surrounding areas.

EDIT: For those wanting more specifics...

Aerojet / Rocketdyne is the company. Rancho Cordova is the city.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerojet#EPA_Superfund_sites](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerojet#EPA_Superfund_sites)

~~~
bcrosby95
Are you talking about the Santa Susana Labs that was used by Rocketdyne for a
period of time? Or is there another area with a similarly screwed up story?

I live in the area (about 5 miles south of the former lab) and didn't hear
anything about it until I moved here. Since then I've read stories about how
people living in Simi Valley used to be able to watch some of their rocket
tests.

Those labs are also the site of one of the worst nuclear power incident in the
US - but this was in the 50s. There are also reports of Rocketdyne shooting
barrels of chemicals until they exploded into the 90s. Apparently they
regularly and illegally disposed of contaminated materials by burning them in
open air pits. That's a little insane.

~~~
mtnGoat
Bethpage NY has issues with the groundwater near the old Grumman facility.

I would venture to bet there are probably dozens of such sites across the
country.

------
rhacker
I feel like everyone thinks Flint and Erin Brockovich were the only two water
incidents in the country. If you look for water pollution news - you'll find
that places near garbage dumps are coming up highly toxic, all over the
country. Everyone seems to think the administration has it under control. They
don't. There is benzene, hexavalent chromium and thousands of pollutants found
in our water all over the country. There are literally millions of properties
on well water in the country that are not checked but once every 20 years (if
that). The only fix is rain catchment, before it goes into the ground. Soil
remediation and stopping people from contaminating!!!! In all political
parties groundwater and soil contamination is going to come to a head soon.

~~~
gurumeditations
Our future has really been stolen from us. Decades of pollution from greed and
decadence and excess, as Thunberg says “fantasies of eternal economic growth”,
have totally destroyed our future (speaking as a young person). Climate change
robs us of a stable world, robots rob us of our livelihoods, and decades of
‘economic growth’ have poisoned our bodies and minds from birth through
polluted water, air, and food.

Everything is an ecosystem. You can’t have wild growth without paying for it,
and the people of the past 75 years have stolen our bright futures from us and
stuck us with the bill. Your comment reminded me of just how fucked up
everything is. I think the 21st century will be consumed by the efforts to
clean up the giant mess the 20th century left us. Goodbye economic growth.
They stripmined the timeline and left us nothing.

~~~
twblalock
Cleaning all that stuff up is an opportunity for growth. Entire industries
will need to be involved in order to pull it off.

~~~
gurumeditations
That’s like saying poisoning is good for people because the sicker people are,
the more hospitals and doctors you’ll need. The money has to come from
somewhere. There is no profit in cleaning up messes, just loss reduction. The
money, trillions of dollars just for climate change alone, has to come from
somewhere. If past generations had not been so greedy, that money would be in
our pockets. Instead, it will be burned because we have to clean up the
unfathomable messes older people have created.

~~~
ddingus
No, it is saying that it is worth it to clean up after ignorance and folly.

And there are eventually gains to be had.

Those clean areas are worth more, the money paid to labor means demand,
growth, etc...

------
jen_h
Filter your water if you live anywhere near an airport or military base
anywhere, it's not just California.

In Satellite Beach, Florida, the contamination from Patrick AFB was discovered
after a group of Satellite Beach High alumni realized they all developed
cancer around the same time and decided to start digging.
[[https://pfasproject.com/2018/08/08/satellite-beach-
florida-f...](https://pfasproject.com/2018/08/08/satellite-beach-florida-
finds-cancer-causing-chemicals-in-groundwater/)]

They dumped everything in a trench...not realizing there was an underground
waterflow there. :/

~~~
hanniabu
> not realizing there was an underground waterflow there

I'm amazed whenever I see this. (A) what makes it okay to just dump stuff in a
ditch? (B) are these people really clueless that no leaching through soil
occurs?

~~~
heavyset_go
> _what makes it okay to just dump stuff in a ditch?_

Lack of accountability. They did a calculation, and decided the risk of
lawsuits several decades down the line is worth not paying to properly dispose
their waste today.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
There's a big difference between accountability and having to base your
actions around what makes you the least sue-able and I think we can all agree
that the latter has some serious side effects.

------
inlined
I’m grateful to those who have fought and sacrificed for our rights. I think
somewhere up the chain things get wonky. With our astronomical military
budgets it should be easy to earmark two things: veterans’ benefits and
ecological cleanup

------
jayess
This is a big deal here in Michigan as well, due to various other industries
using PFAS-laden chemicals in industrial settings. Around here it's mostly
tanneries that used these chemicals and then wantonly dumped them in municipal
dumps or the companies bought land and just dumped the chemicals there. Entire
communities are now being discovered to be polluted.

------
lorenzhs
The same problem exists with PFC foam used at military and civilian airports
in Germany (and probably around the world):
[https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/report-
muenchen/bunde...](https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/report-
muenchen/bundeswehr-pfc-101.html) (in German)

~~~
hammock
It's a worldwide problem. I would safely guess just about every airfield in
America is dealing with this issue, even if there hasn't been a specific
article written about it yet.

~~~
jb775
There have been many articles written about it, google "PFAS contamination".

I moved into a new house last year near 2 closed down USAF military bases
(known to have been previously contaminated by firefighter foam) and did a ton
of research on the issue since the house water comes from a well (free
water!). I ended up getting a professional water filtration system installed
in our basement (carbon tanks, UV light filter, reverse osmosis). Cost me $5k+
for install and ~$1500 year to swap out the tanks and service the system. It's
pricey but you can't put a price on clean water.

~~~
Scoundreller
There’s gotta be a cheaper ongoing way to do this. For the carbon, should be
possible to buy it by the barrel. Germicidal UV lights should be cheap
(they’re mainly uncoated fluorescent lamps) and dunno about the RO
membranes...

------
philips
Can someone recommend a consumer water testing kit that covers things like
this?

~~~
LeifCarrotson
No, you can't test for PFAS with consumer kit, it's dangerous at 70 parts-per-
trillion levels and is tricky to handle without contamination. The test itself
is expensive, too. I'm in the part of Rockford, Michigan contaminated by
Wolverine/Hush Puppies/Caterpillar shoe leather tannery scraps, and they've
paid Rose & Westra GZA to send techs to my house every 6 months. A friend just
outside the supposedly affected area paid $300 to have a test performed, which
came back with <5ppt (to my house's 35-45ppt).

And that's just one possible issue. You can't feasibly test for every possible
exotic contaminant.

In my case, however, a pair of 48"x10" granular activated carbon filters (with
auxiliary sediment filters, water softener, and UV light) have proven
completely effective at removing PFAS from my water.

~~~
skeptical900067
Those sound like big filters. Where are they installed, and how often do you
replace? Or is that just pitcher volume?

~~~
LeifCarrotson
They're in my unfinished basement. Culligan (on Wolverine's dime) handles the
service, had one replacement in almost 2 years. They just disconnect,install
refurbished units, and bring my old ones back to contain the chemical waste
and repack with fresh carbon.

------
aledalgrande
How can people in the US live with this level of poison in the water? I would
think that the government would pick up on it and get it fixed. It is an
essential element for life. Even before we start talking to damage to the
environment.

~~~
trockbort
The US government is the biggest polluter of them all. The US government does
not care about human health or environmental preservation. Yet Americans in
general cling to some deep belief that their government cares for them,
despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

~~~
StreamBright
This is the argument that I use against more taxation. If you pay more taxes
it will be spent by these guys who as many example shows will commit enormous
crimes against humanity without real consequences.

~~~
asdf21
Exactly. It's mind boggling to constantly hear, "The Government does so many
bad things! We need to give them more money so they'll stop!"

Huh??

Case in point: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gI-
RbqHEKQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gI-RbqHEKQ)

------
ChuckMcM
The EPA fact sheet on PFAS : [https://www.epa.gov/pfas/basic-information-
pfas](https://www.epa.gov/pfas/basic-information-pfas)

Can be filtered out of your drinking water with a reverse osmosis filter. If
you live in the Bay Area its a useful thing to have, and if you're concerned
about your tap water you can send a sample here:
[https://torrentlab.com/drinking-and-storm-water-quality-
test...](https://torrentlab.com/drinking-and-storm-water-quality-test-kit/)

------
isthispermanent
This kind of reminds of when we dump tons of salt on the roads when winter
storms come around the east coast. It solves one problem but what other
problems is it causing?

It would be incredibly naive to think dumping all these chemicals on the
ground wouldn't cause some type of negative externality.

~~~
eloff
It rusts cars for one. It could make the soil too salty for growing if runoff
accumulates in one place, but usually it will be diluted too much to matter. I
don't know if chemicals other than salt are used commonly on roads, that could
cause other issues.

~~~
sgc
Zeolites are one of the widely used alternatives developed specifically to
replace salt use. They are an oil derivative, so I am not hopeful of their
long term effects. They are also very expensive comparatively.

~~~
philipkglass
Zeolites are used as catalysts in _processing_ oil, but they're not oil
derivatives.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite)

~~~
sgc
Yes, I was wrong due to lack of research. I knew someone who had worked a lot
on them at Chevron when i was a kid and just presumed.

------
xioxox
It reminds me of the flame-retardant chemicals used widely in furniture in the
UK:
[https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49000966](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49000966)

------
semerda
EPA Superfund sites --- ok I did not know about this until this thread... omg!

I just recently found out the Shoreline Park in Mountain View used to be a
landfill for most of bay area and SF. Today it is open to enjoy like it's some
natural bird sanctuary.. yet there are pipes underground extracting methane
24x7 and I think I found a methane release valve last weekend right next to a
jogging path... Can anyone confirm plz? =>
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq3CnXU5OtU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq3CnXU5OtU)

~~~
DrScump
Methane outgassing is a known issue within the Shoreline Amphitheatre itself!
It's built on a former dump.

During the earliest events there in the 1980s, concertgoers seated on the lawn
set it afire when trying to smoke!

(And, yes, it's misnamed. It's a theatre, not an amphitheatre.)

There are EPA Superfund sites all over the valley. One of the worst was across
the street from the Ice Center and Spartan Stadium.

------
hanniabu
Sad that we live by the contaminate now and see what happens later montra

------
hanniabu
I was always told that this foam wasn't toxic

~~~
opwieurposiu
Well if the choice is between getting sprayed with burning jet fuel or sprayed
with fluorinated foam I will take the foam every time.

Maybe we should save the good stuff like halon and PFAS foam for emergencies
and use something more eco for training.

~~~
jabl
In principle, but otoh it makes a lot of sense to train with the same stuff
you use for real.

That being said, recently non-flourinated firefighting foams have been
developed (based on some sugars IIRC), so there's hope these will be able to
replace the old stuff.

------
ralphosphorous
NE Michigan is suffering from the pollution of PFAS as well. Been aware of it
for about 9 years now but really only in the past year, maybe two, has the
cleanup and awareness gained traction. It's still used in firefighting foam
and any area near an Air Force or Army base likely has high risk of exposure
to it.

------
JoblessWonder
Well, I wasn't expecting to see the airport I'm sitting at in the news
today...

Slightly related, but there is a big issue with new aircraft hangar fire
suppression systems because of the regulation of foam now. Regulators don't
want anyone to use foam but there isn't a better solution out there yet.

------
jug
This happened here in Sweden too. Same chemical, same problem. A huge scandal
especially among concerned parents where children had grown up with it. In our
case it happened due to its use on a nearby Air Force base.

------
jcrawfordor
Contamination concerns surrounding Air Force and other military sites span far
beyond PFAS as well. Disused military sites fall under the purview of the
Defense Environmental Recovery Program/Formerly Used Defense Sites (DERP FUDS,
what an acronym) administered by the Corps of Engineers, which has a long list
of sites (hundreds per state generally) and is not very transparent about the
disposition of these sites, with the records usually being shipped to the
district ACE headquarters from which they can be difficult to retrieve. The
sheer number of sites is also a challenge to effective public oversight.

Active sites generally fall under the purview of an environmental permitting
program, so there are dual problems that the level of rigor to which the
operation is held varies by the permitting authority (state environment
department or EPA depending) and that the military branches in general and it
seems Air Force in particular have drug their feet and, in general, gotten
away with the least effort possible to satisfy their permit obligations (which
are virtually always negotiable with the permitting authority, a negotiating
process in which the Air Force holds a large portion of the power).

Other common groundwater contamination concerns around Air Force installations
include jet fuel (often leaked from underground tanks and piping and may have
gone undetected for decades) and residues of high explosives resulting from
munitions testing and disposal. Smaller groundwater plumes may result from
photographic processing chemicals and solvents used in cleaning aircraft
parts. Generally all of these will be grouped into one or more "operable
units" or OUs for administrative purposes and a series of reports issued as
the contamination is characterized and a remediation program is designed and
implemented. Depending on the regulating agency, these reports may be more or
less difficult to find. For DERP FUDS it usually requires a FOIA to the
correct USACE HQ wih a lot of followup as they frankly don't seem to have
their records in order internally and take a while to find them - the FOIA
officers are generally helpful but will keep coming back to you needing more
info/clarification as they try to track down the right OU and reports.
Fortunately I have never had them ask for a fee, even when their "secure file
transfer" solution was broken for months and they had to mail me burned CDs.

Permitting processes and the DERP program both require public information
meetings and a (modest) public outreach program. If you live near a military
site, pay attention to notices in the newspapers and posted around the
community for these meetings, and contact the public information office of the
relevant military branch to inquire. The public meetings often include a
surprising amount of technical detail on the concern and remediation plans,
and because they are also attended by permitting officials represent an
opportunity to put some city council meeting-style public pressure on the
process.

------
neonate
[http://archive.is/HXsuL](http://archive.is/HXsuL)

------
Apocryphon
So does this mean San Franciscans should avoid drinking tap water?

~~~
mntmoss
City of San Francisco is one of the exceptional ones since it secured the best
water from Hetch-Hetchy many generations ago, and the worst that is likely to
ever happen is bad pipes, and possibly contaminants in the specific areas that
saw military use(i.e. Hunter's Point, Treasure Island, Presidio). Other towns
in the Bay Area have something bigger to worry about, OTOH, even tech workers
at the major SV campuses. The South Bay is dotted with industrial Superfund
sites and there are a lot of unknowns about when and where they'll leak out.

~~~
sjg007
You basically need to keep your windows open in SV. That and live up in the
hills.

------
mschuster91
> The Air Force delivered free five-gallon jugs of water to the Mendez home
> for more than two years. In 2018, it paid to have the house connected to the
> municipal water system. Ruben Mendez said he now pays $100 a month for water
> he used to get for free.

Sorry, what? 100$ a month for _residential water_? Either this guy is running
a farm operation or something is seriously broken.

~~~
rixrax
As incredible as it is, $100 appears to be below average monthly cost nowadays
for a 4 person family[0] using 150 gallons / person / day [based on a random
study that quick search found].

I am not sure who would use 150 gallons a day though. Even 50 gallons (~189
liters) seems a lot to me. If you factor in irrigation system, etc. then maybe
you would get to these gallon volumes.

[0] [https://www.circleofblue.org/2018/water-
management/pricing/p...](https://www.circleofblue.org/2018/water-
management/pricing/price-of-water-2018/)

~~~
TylerE
The big consumers are stuff like toilets (~2 gallons/flush), showers (2-3
gallons/minute), and lawn care.

So you have 3 people who take a 10 minute shower, and flush the toilet 4 times
each, that's 112 gallons/day right there.

~~~
ping_pong
112 gallons a day is not a lot. We have exactly this and our water bill is
$25/month in the SF Bay Area. Our SERVICE CHARGE just to have water is about
$30/month whether we use water or not.

Lawn care is the most expensive part, that can be hundreds of dollars a month,
depending on how much water you use.

When I lived in Vancouver, BC, our house had a flat water rate of $40/month.
My parents would use water until the cows came home, would leave the faucet
running while walking around the house, etc. When they came to visit here, I
made sure they broke themselves of that habit very very quickly.

