
PFAS “Forever Chemicals” and Nordic Ski Wax - mimixco
https://www.outsideonline.com/2408206/nordic-skiing-fluorinated-wax-swix
======
unicornporn
This shit is everywhere and I've lately observed that the big outdoor brands
aren't even close to doing what they can to stop using them. It's even in
childrens clothes, all in the name of keeping us dry.

I actually recently tried Greenland wax on a cotton canvas anorak, and so far
it's working out great. Perhaps it's not as effective as Gore-Tex. I think we
should try to remember that people somehow survived outside before these
materials were introduced.

~~~
Angostura
I suspect many of the buyers of Gortex clothing are quite environmentally
aware. This could be bad for them if the news spreads. I was completely
unaware of the link between Gortex and PFAS

~~~
tesseract
The Goretex membrane itself is PTFE, which as long as you don't overheat/burn
it, is a long chain polymer that does not seem to be anywhere near as much of
a concern as small-molecule PFAS are. The bigger issue is likely the water
repellent treatment of the shell fabric, which at least in the existing
technology is necessary for breathability -- the garment can't breathe if the
outer fabric layer is waterlogged.

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hinkley
The fungi Phanerochaete chrysosporium and Aspergillus niger apparently can
degrade PFAS chemicals. Though I'm not sure how you concentrate them enough to
for bioremediation, especially in tap water, unless you can do it at the point
sources.

[https://escholarship.org/uc/item/2x47296b](https://escholarship.org/uc/item/2x47296b)

Scotchguard got banned years ago, sounds like ski wax is next, but it sounds
like it'll still be used in factories for the foreseeable future.

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notatoad
Seems like kind of weird timing for this article - FIS has banned fluoros, and
their grip over the nordic ski racing world is pretty much absolute. by next
season, any waxes with fluoros will not be viable consumer products.

They call out the american birkie for not having banned fluoros yet - that's
because the FIS ban hasn't gone into effect yet. American Birkie is a FIS
worldloppet race and subject to FIS rules.

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Alex3917
It’s in almost all chain lubes for bikes also. There is one brand I found
called Green Oil that doesn’t use it, but it takes a week or so to ship from
the UK and they only make a wet lube. Not thrilled with using a wet lube year
round, but still much better than having Teflon dust in my apartment.

~~~
nate_meurer
No, lubricants such as Krytox and the various spray and wet machine lubes used
for bikes and such contain only polymerized fluoropolymers such as PTFE (trade
name Teflon). PTFE has a long established safety record, and is completely
different from the unpolymerized PFCs that are showing up in ground water and
in people's blood.

Green Oil is fear mongering. Their website calls PTFE "carcinogenic". This is
a lie. The manufacture of PTFE is nasty business, no doubt, but the finished
product is safe. Safe enough that it has been widely used in medical implants
for the past 50 years.

~~~
serf
>PTFE has a long established safety record, and is completely different from
the unpolymerized PFCs that are showing up in ground water and in people's
blood.

Teflon is mentioned in the article as a PFAS based chemical that has had legal
trouble due to health hazards in the past..

"A just-released film, Dark Waters, stars Mark Ruffalo as an intrepid lawyer
battling DuPont in the early 2000s after the chemical giant began making a
PFAS-based product, Teflon, at its factory in Parkersburg, West Virginia,
where chronic illness and untimely deaths spiked among nearby residents.
Several states, New York and Ohio among them, have filed lawsuits that seek
compensation for health problems caused by drinking water polluted by PFAS.
DuPont and 3M are frequently defendants in these suits."

~~~
nate_meurer
The difference is between polymers such as PTFE and PVDF, and the feedstock
monomers used to make them. They are _completely_ different materials. PTFE is
inert and immortal. It's dead to the world. You can scrape the non-stick
coatings off of all your pans and eat it, and there will be no detectable
fluorinated chemicals in your blood. PTFE is widely used for medical implants,
and has been for over 50 years. Its track record is well established.

The chemicals discussed in the article and in the movie you mention are the
feedstocks used to make the polymers, and the surfactants used to form
coatings. Those chemicals -- referred to collectively as PFAS -- might be a
big fucking problem. They are also inert in a chemical sense, but they're
monomeric so they live their whole lives as single molecules, free to pass
through biological tissues, where they apparently cause problems. PTFE has no
such freedom at any scale; even the finest PTFE dust cannot be absorbed in
your gut, and evidence of respiratory hazard of PTFE is pretty much nil until
it's burnt, in which case the problem isn't the PTFE but rather the pyrolysis
products.

PTFE and PFAS... completely different materials with completely different
chemical, biological, and environmental behaviors.

~~~
FooHentai
>You can scrape the non-stick coatings off of all your pans and eat it, and
there will be no detectable fluorinated chemicals in your blood. PTFE is
widely used for medical implants, and has been for over 50 years. Its track
record is well established.

You fail to mention it's track record for straight up killing birds if you
overheat it. Which, to be clear, we're talking about cookware. The odds of it
getting left too long on the heat once in a while are very high.

It will kill your pet bird in seconds. Damage to humans? Unclear.

~~~
nate_meurer
Birds are easily killed by any kind of smoke. Everything from overheated
cooking oil to second hand cigarette smoke can quickly kill your bird. Non-
stick cookware is hardly unique in that regard.

PTFE does emit some uniquely nasty chemicals when overheated, but in
mercifully small quantities, and the effects seem to be temporary. If you read
up on fluorinated polymer fume exposure, you'll find exactly zero known
deaths, only a handful of known injuries, and no firm evidence of long term
health effects. Considering that there are millions of amateur cooks out there
abusing non-stick pans every day since the 1960's, I'd say that's a pretty
fucking good track record.

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TimD1
As someone who has waxed with HF wax several dozen times in the past
(collegiate nordic ski racer) with no face mask and mediocre room ventilation,
how worried should I be about long-term side effects?

~~~
topspin
The average US citizen has a large load of PFAS in their blood[1] from
clothing, carpet, water and other sources. The levels have dropped a great
deal in the last 20 years but it's unlikely you've increased your levels much
beyond what you already had from other sources.

[1] [https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/pfas/pfas-blood-
testing.html](https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/pfas/pfas-blood-testing.html)

The blood serum levels reported by CDC are staggering. As an example, I have a
well and it's in a contamination plume of PFOS and PFOA. The EPA certified
laboratory measured level two years ago was 11 ppt (parts per trillion.) The
CDC measured 2.1 ug/L of PFOA (only) in the blood of over 2000 people in 2014.
That's 2,100,000 ppt; 5 orders of magnitude higher than my 'contaminated'
water.

~~~
steve_g
I think 2.1 ug/l is 2100 parts per trillion (where "trillion" means 10E+12)

A ug is 10E-6 grams, a liter is about 10E+3 grams.

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ratsmack
For everyone concerned about the damage this crap is doing to the environment
and humans should watch "The Devil We Know"[1]. This film covers a time frame,
starting in the 50's up to the current day.

[1] [https://youtu.be/gwZSXdjAqSk](https://youtu.be/gwZSXdjAqSk)

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ErikAugust
This stuff is in drinking water which seems bad, but what are the dangers of
Teflon and Gore-Tex clothing?

~~~
jfim
The company manufacturing Teflon has been disposing of chemicals used during
the manufacture of Teflon in such a way that those chemicals end up in the
drinking water supply of communities surrounding factories.

~~~
nate_meurer
Also, the U.S. military deliberately dumps tons of this shit right on the
ground every year. They use it in firefighting foam, and spray it freely in
regular fire fighting exercises at dozens of military bases around the
country.

[https://theintercept.com/2018/02/10/firefighting-foam-
afff-p...](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/10/firefighting-foam-afff-pfos-
pfoa-epa/)

~~~
beenBoutIT
That and the jet fuel are powerful reasons to never live near a military base.

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LargoLasskhyfv
Meanwhile in Aspen, CO [https://www.aspentimes.com/news/aspen-skiing-co-among-
those-...](https://www.aspentimes.com/news/aspen-skiing-co-among-those-saying-
goodbye-to-ski-wax-hello-to-phantom/) & [https://www.dpsskis.com/phantom-
glide](https://www.dpsskis.com/phantom-glide)

Should pollute less because it lasts longer?

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arcticgeek
So is the regular Swix CH7 hydrocarbon wax a C6 or a C8? Should I still be
handling these with gloves?

~~~
notatoad
the "CH" line of waxes (CH4/6/7/8/10) are not fluorinated. The waxes that
start with LF or HF (low-fluoro and high-fluoro, respectively) are the
fluorinated products.

you probably don't need to worry about handling LF or HF with gloves, it's not
_that_ toxic. but if you're waxing with them you should be wearing a
respirator.

~~~
lsllc
Yeah ... about that. The CH wax dust isn't good respiratory-wise either. As an
avid Alpine skier I used to hot wax, scrape then use the drill mounted rotary
brushes pretty much every weekend until I discovered wax "dust" in my coffee!
(early morning tuning!). I'd usually tune late at night I guess I never
noticed the wax in my beer can/bottle! That was the last time I used them.

Now I use the Pro-Glide from SkiMD, rather than hot-waxing, scraping and
brushing, you crayon the wax on cold then use it as a friction device to
"melt" the wax in with some very light brushing. Much much quicker, uses far
less wax and produces very little dust, highly recommended:

[https://skimd.com/pro-glide](https://skimd.com/pro-glide)

I never really used Fluro-based waxes because it doesn't last long and the
guidance was that you needed to "get it out of your base" after racing as it
supposedly did long term damage to the ski.

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kyleblarson
I am a childless person living in the biggest nordic skiing area in North
America. I wax with LF/HF every morning. I don't think my impact on the
environment is that big.

