

Ask HN: Bad situation – how long of a notice should a consultant give a client? - throwaway389

What is the opinion in the United States for how much notice you have to give a client if you want to cut the work short? We&#x27;ve been working together for two months (350 hours). The contract allows me to just walk away, but just like with employment, you don&#x27;t want to do that except in extreme cases.<p>It&#x27;s my first time consulting and things have gone about as bad as could be. What was initially estimated to be 150 hours for $6000 (well below my market rate to begin with) currently stands at 350 hours and $6700 in the bank so far. I got sweet-talked into extending twice. This time I told the client I am done and will not continue beyond finishing one last item and writing the docs for business continuity. He&#x27;s trying to sweet talk into doing several of the important and urgent items, which of course are going to play out like everything else so far and take much longer than he thinks.<p>So, if for full-time employment two weeks notice is customary, what is it for consulting?<p>I&#x27;d also like to hear from other folks just how bad things went for them to justify quitting suddenly? How did the client take it?
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bigiain
"Customary"? For a consultant, you'd normally down-tools as soon as the first
invoice is overdue.

Depending on how you packaged up that "estimated 150hrs" originally, you might
not (yet?) have an overdue invoice.

Just how bad is "the contract"? Could the client plausibly claim you've failed
to deliver on what he's already paid $6700 for? If so, you might need to
finish off whatever needs doing to meet your end of the contractual obligation
(or be prepared to give some/all of that money back). If the contract was
"150hours work, estimated to be sufficient to complete the project", you're
fully entitled to stop and ask for more money before continuing (although if
it was _your_ estimate, you'll have some questions to ask about why it was so
badly out).

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zhte415
How important is the relationship and other interests?

Are you working based on the idea that the relationship is important, and the
other side is hard-balling you?

Is walking away that risky that you don't want to do it?

I focus on 'relationship' as you mention being sweet-talked. Are there other
interests that this client thinks they have you owing to you, or you owing in
them, that make them (or you) behave like this?

If not complex with multiple vested interests, wait until Monday (Mondays are
good for breaking news, as people can stew over things on weekends and it
gives you weekend planning time), create some really specific criteria for
both what you do that is billable and what you think is OK for continuing the
contract. If it is far longer than he thinks, then tell him how long it will
really take, or do something even more simple and bill on product
specification, not hours, and ensure re-billing is done on any change of
product specification (which should include testing checklists).

If they decline, then walk away. Don't be sweet talked by someone with no
sweets in their pocket.

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duncan_bayne
I wrote about my own experience with this sort of situation here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7831477](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7831477)

You need to firmly end the scope creep, _now_. Explain that:

* the project has blown way out, that the engagement is no longer benefiting you

* if they want to continue working with you they're going to have to negotiate a new deal

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eschutte2
Sorry to hear about the stressful situation. I rarely cut an engagement short,
but there's nothing wrong with doing it. Just decide how many more hours
you're willing to put in to do a decent job wrapping things up, and then tell
the client you're not available past X date and what you're doing to leave
them in a good place. In my experience, professional people have no trouble
understanding that. How you communicate is more important than the actual
details. No matter how stressed you are, you can be courteous but firm.

One last thing: consulting is NOT "just like [with] employment." The "walk
away at any time" bit is there for a reason.

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MalcolmDiggs
It depends on what you want out of the situation.

If you genuinely just want to be rid of the client, then just walk away.
You've done more than enough already.

If you want to see if you can turn this problem-client into a good one, then
maybe you can talk with them (firmly) about setting up a payment plan or some-
other-way for them to pay off the extra work you've been doing.

If you want a good reference from the client in the future (semi-important if
you're still building-out your portfolio) then maaaaaaybe I'd transition away
over 2 weeks or so. But that's only if their reputation is fantastic and
they'd make a great reference in the future.

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brudgers
If you haven't been paid all that you are owed, stop work immediately.

The customary notice is exactly in the contract.

The problem with providing services at below the market rate is that you've
told the client that your time isn't very valuable. Cheap clients are not
worth having. Part of the reason is that they prevent you from getting better
work.

Good luck.

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gexla
Sounds like the client has you trained. Everything the client asks for, you
give in. What do you think the client is going to keep doing?

~~~
radio4fan
Or looking at it another way, OP has trained the _client_ to continue to act
this way by rewarding his undesirable behaviour.

Its like giving a dog a biscuit every time it pisses on the rug.

Still, I feel that the fair solution to both parties is to explain to the
client _why_ the important and urgent items are going to take much longer than
he thinks.

OP could look on this gig as an opportunity to train himself in managing
clients, and therefore walk away with some benefit.

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bradleyland
1) Stop working right now. Fuck the business continuity documents. You're more
than double over your budgeted hours.

2) Take 40 minutes of your invaluable time and listen to Mike Monterio's talk,
"Fuck you, Pay Me". [https://vimeo.com/22053820](https://vimeo.com/22053820)

How the client will take it is relative to how it impacts you. The worse it is
for you, the less it matters how it impacts a client. Ultimately, you are
responsible for the position you're in, but the client is complicit. There's a
good chance that you won't be able to use this client as a reference, and do
not kid yourself by believing that you can "explain the situation" to future
clients. It's time to cut your losses and move on.

You are currently working for job rate of $17/hr ($6000/350). As a consultant,
you are underwater. It _will_ take time to find more work, which must be
factored in to your hourly rate. I used to compute average hourly working rate
on an quarterly basis: total billings for the quarter divided by gross hours
worked. The gross hours worked number included admin time, which I billed to
my own company. You're cruising toward McDonald's wage if you don't turn this
around.

I'm going to assume that this was a fixed-price contract, and that you
included a budgeted number of hours in your contract. You need to draft a
communication explaining that you've more than doubled the number of budgeted
hours for the project, and that you cannot continue working unless the
customer is willing to enter in to a new contract with additional billing.

If your original contract did not include a budgeted number of hours, then
you're really in a bad spot. The best you can hope for is that you can walk
away and not have the customer come after you for failure to deliver, and
demanding a refund.

The key to all of this is communicating early, and communicating often.

Do not worry that the customer will be annoyed.

Do not worry that they won't like you.

Do not worry that you're asking for too much.

Tell the client that you've worked over twice the number of budgeted hours,
and that you're not willing to go any further.

Tell them what your time is worth, and that you'll be happy to provide them
with an estimate to complete the project.

When you deliver that estimate, make sure your rate is solid, and that the
estimate includes a budgeted number of hours. Deliver a weekly report of the
hours consumed and the work completed. Book the time required to track this
information to an "admin" task. Include that item on your billing, but bill it
at a $0 rate. Explain to the customer that this line item is the time required
to track the progress of the project, and that you're such a nice guy, you're
not going to bill them for it.

I wish you the best of luck, but I've been in this situation before as well.
I've been worse. I've had a developer flake out, and I had to write a check
back to a customer. This is consulting. You win some; you lose some. That's
why consulting rates are $250/hr when wages are $50/hr. There are costs
external to the customer's job that must be priced in. The customer's
alternative is to hire someone (muy expensive), or to find some other schmuck
to do the job on the cheap. The trick is not to be the schmuck.

EDIT: After submitting this, I realized that I didn't address your $60/hr
billing rate. That number is insanely low for a consultant. If you're a rock
star and you've got work lined up for months you can optimistically expect to
hit 80% billable time. That is 80% of your 40 hour work week will be billable.
Do the math:

80% of 40 hours is 32 hours a week of actual billable time.

On an annual basis, how many weeks of work do you think you can line up? My
experience was around 3 out of every 4 weeks. That's 39 billable weeks a year.

With those numbers, you're on track to make around $75k a year. That's if you
have a mature business with a good client book and return work. It took me
three years to get there.

The other problem with a $60/hr billing rate is that you'll attract $60/hr
customers. Otherwise known as people who will run you double-over your
budgeted hours and demand that you keep going. Fuck those people. Double your
billing rate and start selling solutions, not technology.

See also:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6717875](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6717875)

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smt88
Stop doing anything for the client until he pays. For your purposes, "pays"
might just mean the money is in escrow until the work is done. But the client
needs to demonstrate that the money exists and will be given to you.

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thaumaturgy
I've dropped a couple of clients, usually over some kind of billing issue or
abuse. I don't regret losing the relationships, but I would handle it a lot
differently now (they happened earlier on in my business, and I was partly at
fault too).

"Hi, we really need to talk about how your project has been progressing. I've
put a lot of effort in to it, with a lot more hours than we originally
discussed. I want to see it finished to your satisfaction, but I'm also not
making enough money right now to cover my expenses. I have to start looking
for more income immediately.

I'll finish a few more items [..., ..., ...], but if you want [..., ..., ...]
done, I have to bill you at a normal professional rate. Since we've worked so
hard together on this, I'll charge a little less than my next client. Let's
say $400/day. I'll do my best to give you an estimate for new features."

And negotiate from there. Put the ball back in his court; let it be his
decision to either pay you or discontinue the project.

 _Most_ folks understand that they can get any 2 of cheap, fast, or good; if
he can't afford the budget for the project, he'll either drop it or negotiate
with you and you can offer to wind down the project at a rate that you're
happier with, spending far less time on it. Or, he'll come up with the money;
I've had a few clients suddenly show up with a nice check once I say, "I can't
keep working on this for you at your original budget."

I started doing the "straightforward & honest" thing with clients a little
over a year ago. I dropped all pretenses about money and how great business is
(it's not bad, but it could be better). I thought everyone would stop working
with me. What happened instead is almost everyone really appreciated it. So,
in my experience, there's no harm at all in just telling someone you can't
afford to keep working for them. Sometimes they'll offer you more money.

A few folks will flip out or come unglued or say rude things. That's the
beauty of being a consultant, you really don't have to put up with that if you
don't feel like it. You can walk away from people like them and not look back
or regret it.

But, almost all of my work has come from word-of-mouth, so I try to keep
clients pretty happy as much as possible.

> _I got sweet-talked... trying to sweet talk..._

It sounds like you're just struggling with negotiating, like pretty much
everyone does when they're just starting out. He begs or pleads or convinces
you that it won't be that hard and you wear down and say OK and then try to do
it and resent it. So now you want to run away because you don't feel like you
can handle negotiating with him.

Try it anyway, and keep trying. Even if you end up walking away from the
project, you'll learn _a lot_ by trying to renegotiate. If you have to, write
a number down on a piece of paper before talking to him. Don't start higher
with the hopes of negotiating down to it, don't accept anything less than
that, just stick to it. Write "don't do it you idiot" on the back of the
paper. Every time you start to consider taking a lower number, flip the paper
over.

