
Reborn 3: Desktop browser with Web 3, faster VPN and ad blocker - rayascott
https://blogs.opera.com/desktop/2019/04/opera-60-reborn-3-web-3-0-vpn-ad-blocker/
======
sharperguy
I don't like the term Web3 and I think a lot of people using the it are
basically pushing snake oil.

However, I really like the idea of eventually having client-side decrypted
data, and censorship-resistant "torrent-like" distributed content. Whether
cryptocurrencies must play a role in this or not remains to be seen.

~~~
woah
Having the ability for users to pay granularly for their use of web
infrastructure is a key requirement if we want to transition away from a model
where big corporations with dubious motives pay for web infrastructure.

~~~
intopieces
This is an interesting idea. Do you know of any good articles/books about it?
I am interested in learning more.

~~~
woah
A good chunk of the cryptocurrency space is built around this idea. Some more
well known projects are Filecoin and Blockstack.

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Fiveplus
Two questions : How different is this reskined chrome different than brave if
I were to consider using it?

Can we still rely on opera and trust them (after their Chinese acquisition)?

~~~
krageon
I think in terms of track records there isn't a huge difference between a
Chinese-owned and a US-owned company. If you're already searching outside that
sphere of influence, that makes you a huge outlier. Assuming that you are not,
I think putting just the focus on the nationality here is maybe not a strong
argument in any direction.

~~~
Yoric
I'm not sure why this was downvoted. US companies have been caught regularly
adding backdoors to products sold abroad (from the top of my head, I seem to
remember IBM admitting the charges, Microsoft being caught red-handed, etc.)

Last November, Emmanuel Macron gave a big speech about the fact that the EU
cannot rely anymore on the US as an ally for cyberdefense, because the US
spent so much effort spying on the EU (and regularly getting caught) that it
was not even nearly possible.

So yeah, I trust US companies about as much as Chinese companies, which is not
much.

~~~
shadofx
Not like there's a lack of open source web browsers. Why go specifically for
the closed source Chinese-owned browser that asks for your crypto keys and
provides a "free" "VPN"?

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thefounder
Crypto's main issue is not the UX. It's the volatility and costs(i.e merchants
pay less for the same crypto). Until these two issues are fixed it makes no
sense to use crypto payments unless you are denied access to mainstream
payment networks(visa/mastercard).

The VPN should be integrated at the OS level not browser level.

~~~
bitcoinbutter
Crypto in this case is also being used as an authentication / password
replacement system. Signing with your wallet address proves you are a specific
person. So that alone is a great reason to include the wallet.

~~~
thefounder
>> Signing with your wallet address proves you are a specific person. So that
alone is a great reason to include the wallet.

No, it doesn't. It just proves that you own/hold a private key. You need to
build an identity protocol on top of that if you want to prove that you are a
specific person/organization. Such protocols have been around for quite some
time before crypto currencies. It's just they don't have a good UX, that's why
most websites require a password based authentication instead of a
key/certificate.

I like a lot JWT/JWT as it has a lot of useful attributes(. e.g the "acr"
attribute) so you better start with that than a crypto wallet

~~~
thinkloop
I think they meant to say a specific "account" rather than getting into
person-hood.

I have been wanting what the op describes for a long time - why do we have to
"create" accounts? Why can't we simply tell the site our account with our
request. For a dumb example, having "?publicKey=(key)" in the url. That way
the site can know who we are and be able to link our profile, provable by our
ability to sign using the private key, does away with login forms, does away
with password recovery flow, does away with email single-point-of-failure,
allows us to switch profiles easily, etc. It's mind-boggling that every site
in the world rebuilds login logic.

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uptown
Opera set itself as the default web browser after install on W10. That's quite
aggressive.

~~~
dzek69
How is that possible? Win10 should require manual confirm for that

~~~
JacobJack
Same here... Opera sets itself as default browser without any action/prompt
whatever. It also adds the Opera icon in the task bar without asking anything.
Red line crossed. Next step is probably to uninstall competitors ?

~~~
devbat8712
Not saying setting itself as the default browser is a good thing or anything,
but Firefox also pins to taskbar automatically. Chrome does too IIRC.

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zzzcpan
In addition to ad blocking, VPN is becoming a very important feature for
modern web browsers. With so many countries blocking websites and websites
geoblocking users it becomes necessary to help users circumvent that to access
a wide web. This is kind of the whole point of web browsers, give access to
world wide web, not local web.

Interestingly, Opera trying to compete with other browsers makes it pursue
users interests, while other browsers yet again don't see Opera as
competition, ignore users and pursue megacorp interests instead.

~~~
vbezhenar
It’s a small jump from blocking websites to blocking popular VPNs. I know two
countries which block websites (Russia and Kazakhstan) and they either block
or have plans to block VPNs. I don’t see centralized VPN as effective solution
for that problem.

~~~
kabacha
How do you block a VPN though? Do you just constantly chase after their IP
addresses? I mean Netflix and similar services do try but with not much luck
really.

~~~
saurik
That isn't at all the same problem: Netflix is trying to block being accessed
by a VPN, while China/Russia/etc. want to block users from talking to a VPN.

~~~
kabacha
How do you block "talking" to a VPN?

~~~
tgragnato
When packets traverse the edge router, IX, cable (landing) station, .. if
they're recognised as VPN traffic, then the server's IP (or IP / port) is
added to a blacklist, every subsequent packet is dropped.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_packet_inspection](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_packet_inspection)

~~~
exelius
Yup; this is why VPN over HTTPS is a thing.

~~~
tgragnato
HTTPS has whole series of side-channel leaks, which can be exploited to
fingerprint the tunnelled protocol: many implementations don't add padding or
active probing resistance.

Sizable communications with an uncommon IP can be singled out by netflow
analysis.

But yes, it usually works.

------
Lowkeyloki
This feels more like a marketing move just rebranding an existing product than
anything meaningful.

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jadar
How is any of this new? I mean it's cool, but we already have most of those
features with Firefox and extensions.

~~~
outime
You can have almost anything through extensions and that doesn’t disqualify
built-in alternatives such as this.

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k__
_" Web 3 is an umbrella term for a set of emerging technologies intersecting
cryptocurrencies, blockchains and distributed systems"_

wat?

~~~
ainar-g
This is especially frustrating, considering that _Sir Tim Berners-Lee_ himself
has said, that “Web 3.0” should be about Semantic Web[1]. That does mean that
it should get easier to build distributed and interlinked systems, but that
seems to be a consequence, not the goal.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_Web#Web_3.0](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_Web#Web_3.0)

~~~
blablabla123
I remember reading around that time that some people were wondering whether
Semantic Web or IoT become Web 3.0. Unfortunately I won't find the references
without a lot of googling. On the other hand Semantic Web is pretty much dead,
HTML5 being not related to XML rather went further away again IMHO. Also IoT
didn't seem to find the adaption as expected for home users, at least I don't
find myself interacting with IoT devices on a day to day basis.

That said, IPFS servers and clients are there but it's not in use. So it would
be quite a stretch to call that "officially" Web 3.0 until it will be in use
by a significant amount of end user applications. Until now also blockchain
(read Bitcoin) payment is very exceptional despite tons of frameworks,
libraries, servers and clients. Even for the semantic web there are bizillions
of tools but the information value remains questionable.

Looking back at Web 2.0, the transition went much more smoothly from static
Web 1.0 to usage of "DHTML", HTML 4.0 with much JS/Ajax and eventually popular
services making a lot of use of it, namely Facebook and Google including their
plugins that were embedded on lots of websites at that time and still are.

Anyways, would be nice if a new development would get traction...

------
sergiotapia
God I miss Opera 12, Presto and Dragonfly. :(

~~~
throwaway2048
You might be interested in Vivaldi, a chromium fork made by some of the same
people that originally made opera.

[https://vivaldi.com/](https://vivaldi.com/)

~~~
dao-
It's not a Chromium fork, it basically is Chromium with a custom UI and stuff
added on top.

~~~
lmkg
So, in other words... it's a Chromium fork.

It's not a _Blink_ fork, if that's what you mean. They built a new browser,
using the HTML & JS engines from Chromium. The rest of the browser is
different. As a user, I consider the HTML & JS to be commodities, and
everything else to be the salient aspects that I look at when choosing between
browsers.

------
bflesch
Looks very good to see VPNs and crypto integrated as first-class citizens into
a webbrowser. Also love the nightmode.

~~~
sk0g
What is the point of having crypto integrated into the browser? Native bitcoin
mining malware?

~~~
fabricexpert
It's crucial to UX. Otherwise if you want to buy something you need to switch
to the crypto wallet, pay for it by copying and pasting addresses and wait for
the other side to pick up your transaction and show confirmation in the
browser.

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dropspace
> It allows you to browse and make transactions the blockchain-based Internet
> of the future, also known as Web 3.

Pretty important press release for Opera. You'd think they'd proof read it?

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fabricexpert
> free and unlimited browser VPN

How can they do this for free?

~~~
romanovcode
They log all your data and use it for surveillance.

~~~
fabricexpert
It clearly says they don't.

~~~
mickael-kerjean
That's tooth fairy trust. Last year china got rid of all its VPN apps in the
apple store, how can someone would trust a VPN made by a Chinese company?

------
nbabitskiy
Isn't it misleading, to discuss it as a "vpn service"? If you install a
binary, that not only controls vpn channel on both sides, but is also a
browser, do I understand it right, that it can completely highjack the trust
mechanisms, and happily MITM anything you visit? Is there any way to find out
if it's really establishing, well, vpn connection (e.g. openVPN or Wireguard),
without DPI hardware and corresponding expertise?

~~~
anc84
This is the same as any non-tech person using a "VPN". They do not care about
privacy or anything. So this makes sense.

~~~
nbabitskiy
Please correct me, if I'm wrong. When a non-tech person buys a vpn
subscription, she may be provided with a tunneling software, but the key
exchange is still happening in the browser. If the site shows a green lock,
you can trust the connection to be encrypted, to the extent you trust Mozilla.

Also, many vpn providers let you use open source software, like OpenVPN.

Opera, however, can ship an installer with a statically linked mock ssh lib,
that's always showing a green lock. It's a much more sinister threat model.

~~~
Drdrdrq
Mozilla could do the same. That said, I do trust Mozilla quite a bit more.

------
woliveirajr
> Our browser VPN is completely free and unlimited, as well as being a no-log
> service. Our VPN servers do not log or retain any activity data.

Few days ago we were discussing how VPN is important but won't save the day if
you don't know what you are doing.

When we have calls of "I won't log you", I always try to image how tha mine's
bird will be set: and if have to log me under some subpoena, how will I know?

~~~
kmonsen
yeah, just assume all VPN are logging you for sure. That does not mean they
don't serve a useful purpose though. Just not what is defined as criminal in
whatever place your traffic goes through. (That being said, I think it is only
the US that tries to get people for "cyber crimes" in foreign countries?)

------
quillo
I personally feel that browsers are headed entirely in the wrong direction -
"one thing well" no longer applies in this space.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a lightweight browser, if such a
thing even exists anymore? Perhaps Chromium + Scriptsafe + uBlock is what I
need, but ultimately I want is a tabbed browser without a load of unnecessary
features bundled in.

For example; there is no way I would trust the VPN embedded into a browser,
thereby rendering it useless bloat. Much like I don't trust the ad blocker in
Brave for Android, but I find the experience better than Firefox mobile, and
carry on using it despite my displeasure.

~~~
cgh
[https://suckless.org/](https://suckless.org/) offers their WebKit web browser
surf. For tabs, use it with their tabbing frontend, suitably named tabbed.

It was a little barebones for me when I tried it some years back but it might
be what you are looking for.

------
Elect2
Installed, and uninstalled when I found it automatically add it's icon to my
dock. (It's the first mac software I ever installed that add it's icon to dock
itself)

------
abcd_f
A company that sold itself to a Chinese consortium for $600M announces a free
VPN service.

That's some high quality humor.

~~~
ChrisRR
If it's free then you are the product

~~~
operasinger
"If it's free then you are the product"

BINGO! [http://crimeflare.net:83/cfs.html](http://crimeflare.net:83/cfs.html)

~~~
hombre_fatal
Well, a free tier loss leader for paid services is much different than what
people are generally referring to.

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steveneo
I really like Opera and use it as my main browser. Yes, that Chinese company
is notorious. Just don't put any spyware in your oversea version. If you have
to, please only plant it in Chinese release.

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qwerty456127
So I've installed Opera 60. How do I try out anything special? Where is the
Web3 and what's there?

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childintime
Seems Brave-inspired, notably without generating revenue for websites and
users. Which is the better choice?

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theblackcat1002
This looks a bit like Neon, which to me the UX is a bit of gimmick. Since
Opera is sold to a Chinese company, I may consider this if Opera's going to
open source it's code. Btw, I believe nothing is free, you are just paying it
in a non monetary form.

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DiseasedBadger
Is opera chrome clone? Or do they still have their own guts?

~~~
oscargrouch
Opera has a chrome-based engine since 2013 more-less. I guess their old engine
were called Trident, and its gone. Also i think they are now owned by a
Chinese company.

Edit: oops, Trident was the Microsoft browser engine.. i guess i meant
'Presto' as the name of the old ditched Opera web engine.

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htor
apparently we are currently on version 3 of the web?

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
3.0.5274a-rc99, haven't you been getting the release notes?;)

(But seriously, it's like HTML5; there probably won't really be another major
version ever, just new things built on top of the existing schema)

~~~
ldng
I must also have missed 1.0 and 2.0 too then

~~~
magnamerc
1.0 was the static web, 2.0 is basically HTML+JS+css, 3.0 includes a value
exchange protocol layer.

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zerr
Tab grouping support?

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Not_a_pizza
Opera is a Chinese owned company now, right? How safe are you in trusting a
Chinese VPN? Maybe slightly better than a VPN operated by Facebook...maybe?

~~~
lohszvu
Last time I looked at operas "VPN," it wasn't even a VPN. Just a http/https
proxy.

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keepmesmall
I think I'll wait for Web 4, with three dimensions and time. I hope it's as
fun and conducive to creativity as MineCraft!

