
Magic Leap One Video – Diffractive Waveguides Confirmed - IntronExon
http://www.kguttag.com/2018/02/14/magic-leap-one-video-diffractive-waveguides-confirmed/
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dmix
Very interesting insight from a former GPU developer at Magic Leap:

[https://imgur.com/a/hIXTQ#e6Vdo3B](https://imgur.com/a/hIXTQ#e6Vdo3B)

He believes they should have focused on making the headset and gone with
integrating with a mobile device instead of an integrated SoC...That said
there's usually a reason (low-level) engineers are engineers and not product
people... but he makes some good points.

The one I most disagree with is "why develop Apps with ML when you could
develop apps on Apple (iOS)"

Well one good reason is that a) game developers and VR/AR devs aren't
necessarily developing on iOS already yet and b) it's an entirely new
(potentially large) new market where you could become a top developer more
easily. And they'd still have to build a significant part of their SDK on top
of iOS or Android, no?

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zitterbewegung
A big barrier to VR is the fact that it doesn’t work out of the box and needs
configuration. My VR headset is collecting dust since I don’t have time to
reconfigure it. If you make a device that works as fast as a Nintendo switch
(put it on head, turn on and it opens the game) you will have a Really
compelling device .

~~~
corndoge
Eh? The setup process on Rift is a 5 minute operation, granted the Vive takes
about twice as long. Don't see this as significant either way though, not many
people drop $400-800 on a piece of kit and then don't bother to use it because
they're too lazy to configure it.

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drcode
You're ignoring having to mess around with your PC every time you want to use
the Rift/Vive.

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Bjartr
What do you mean by "mess around"?

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drcode
Well, I don't own a Rift, but I assume you can't just walk up to your PC while
it's in sleep mode or whatever and without touching it, put a Rift on your
head and automatically continue playing a game you had been last playing two
days ago (Something that they've promised the "Oculus Go" will be capable of)

~~~
whywhywhywhy
If your PC is on and your Rift connected you don't need to touch anything it
detects when you put it on and throws you right into the menu we're talking
about 5 seconds from it detecting you're putting it on to hitting the menu.

Honestly have massive respect for the Oculus team and their user experience,
if I had to boot up Steam every time I used VR it would start to fall into
more of a chore.

I definitely see value in stand alone devices for these reasons and for the
casual users, but I do also see value in having top end PC power in a tethered
device for creatives and serious gaming.

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olympus
There seems to be several people with a tech hardware background that doubt
that Magic Leap can deliver on their promises. But somehow they have no
problem raising money or getting publicity. Either they have something that is
real and _extremely_ convincing to investors that they have been able to keep
very secret, or they have a really slick slide deck made of lies.

We’ll know for sure if/when the first production devices go on sale, but if
Shaq was wearing a real pair then I don’t want them.

~~~
zitterbewegung
Theranos had no trouble getting funded and even Walgreens to trust them. They
were eventually found out to be charlatans. Just because you can raise money
doesn't mean you have anything to back it up. When people are skeptical they
sometimes have a grain of truth to it. From what I have read about Magic Leap
they seem to have vaporware. Even if they didn't the VR / AR space is getting
more and more competitive so the longer they don't release even if they have
something it may not even matter.

Usually when people present something that is new an innovative you can
understand how they did it. Take for example the new iPhone camera with Face
ID. They gave enough details for someone to understand generally how it was
done. You can look at the physical pieces of it to see how they did it. Sure
Apple may have made some claims that were bending the truth to market it but
the technology has applications other than security (animojis for instance).
Also, it was an extension of previous technology.

When people do the same analysis with Magic Leap they find that they are
outright lying and that they can't actually have anything to backup their
claims. Instead they are trying to pass off technology that doesn't have the
advantages that they state as something completely different.

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Groxx
Walgreens (and CVS) both also sell homeopathic stuff of all kinds, all over.

Even charlatans can sell stuff and make a ton of money. "Can raise money" or
"can trick people into buying" (remarkably similar, really) can not in any way
be construed as a validation of a product.

~~~
freehunter
Agreed. Just getting on a store shelf doesn't mean you have a good product, it
just means that store believes customers will pay for that product.

Like you said, Walgreens, a major pharmacy specializing in real medicine,
sells homeopathic crap. They also sell very unhealthy food and alcohol. They
also sell cigarettes. Not because they believe the product is good, but
because that product makes them money.

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throwaway145679
These guys were definitely going to be using diffractive waveguides (photonic
crystal waveguides). Look at the LinkedIn profiles of some of the folks on
their optical design team (especially the ones with titles that include
"Diffractive Optics Engineer"). One had a PhD adviser at Berkeley (Eli
Yablanovitch) who originally coined the term "photonic crystal", another wrote
a widely used open source implementation of RCWA (S4) while working with a top
group in photonic crystal design at Stanford (Shanhui Fan), and some of their
engineering leadership came to the company from what was Digital Optics
Corporation.

~~~
IntronExon
It might not have been clear to investors who were fed patents with fiber
scanning all over them.

[http://www.kguttag.com/2018/01/06/magic-leap-fiber-
scanning-...](http://www.kguttag.com/2018/01/06/magic-leap-fiber-scanning-
display-fsd-the-big-con-at-the-core/)

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DaveSapien
I Think its also quite telling that they found the biggest person they could
find (Shaquille) to do the physical showcase. On an average sized person these
will be massive, and not just look(and feel) like large weird sunglasses. And
no, I dont believe that these where the "large" version, except in the regard
of the headband. I doubt the core unit will be meaningfully smaller.

Where in comparison, the HoloLens team seemed to take more care in the design
of a large device on a person's head. Looking strange but functional.

~~~
giarc
You also have to consider that they were interviewing the commissioner of the
NBA and Shaq is still one of the biggest personalities associated with the
league. He does a ton of on air promotion for the sport.

It's a big headset, but I don't believe the set out to find the biggest person
just so they could deceive people to think they aren't big.

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kbenson
I'm still waiting for more info on Near Eye Light Field devices.[1][2]

Actually, it appears there's more on this now[3][4], but the video's audio is
a weird translation of some paper or something.

1: [https://research.nvidia.com/publication/near-eye-light-
field...](https://research.nvidia.com/publication/near-eye-light-field-
displays)

2:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwCwtBxZM7g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwCwtBxZM7g)

3: [http://research.nvidia.com/publication/2017-11_%09Near-
eye-L...](http://research.nvidia.com/publication/2017-11_%09Near-eye-Light-
Field)

4:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdTycenXID8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdTycenXID8)

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vanderZwan
> 2:
> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwCwtBxZM7g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwCwtBxZM7g)

> _" In 1968, Ivan Sutherland introduced the first graphics driven headmounted
> display, of HMD"_

Ivan Sutherland? As in: the guy who made Sketchpad? What _hasn 't_ this guy
done?

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deelowe
That was painful to read and the comments are even worse. I'm not sure I trust
anything stated in this write-up.

~~~
IntronExon
Why? His grammar could use a bit of work, but his write ups are often in depth
and quite accurate. He’s hardly an unknown in the world of optics, and his
previous analysis of Magic Leap have all proven accurate.

For example

[http://www.kguttag.com/2018/01/06/magic-leap-house-of-
cards/](http://www.kguttag.com/2018/01/06/magic-leap-house-of-cards/)

[http://www.kguttag.com/2018/01/06/magic-leap-fiber-
scanning-...](http://www.kguttag.com/2018/01/06/magic-leap-fiber-scanning-
display-fsd-the-big-con-at-the-core/)

~~~
deelowe
I think some of the issues pointed out with his assessment in the comment
section hold merit. His "no your wrong" response without any real evidence as
to why doesn't sit well with me. That said, if he's well known for his
knowledge perhaps that's enough. I personally have no idea who he is.

~~~
IntronExon
As with his proofreading, I’m not terribly interested in his comment section
people skills. His decades in the field, his track record of tear downs and
predictions, and his expertise _do_ interest me. I’m noting a paucity of
technical, rather than personal counterpoints here, or in those afformentioned
comments on that level. Loads of appeals to authority, and a kind of, “well
they must have _something_ valuable!” credulity abounds.

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mrarjen
Getting this whole "silicon valley tv show" vibe here, where it's the VR
company that gets to much hype. Almost seems like they are too deep in and
need to keep going hoping it will be accepted in the market.

Still think AR has a lot more potential than VR in the long run. Just need to
get that "Yes!" moment where the technology has a perfect fit and use for it.

~~~
metavrsl
I’d argue that VR has more potential. Once we get to OASIS level VR, it’ll
kick the ass of having a HUD in your glasses.

~~~
mrarjen
Let's hope we won't have to physically move around, and it's slightly more
like Altered Carbon VR :)

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jxramos
"""The rest of the video made my ears bleed. It was the usual Rony doing his
hype and buzzword salad trying to fit in as much hype in as he could without
really saying anything."""

 _Hype and buzzword salad_ , I'm going to be taking that one with me into the
future.

~~~
RobertoG
No need you bother to take it with you, I'm sure there is going to be plenty.

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russdill
It seems like the way they made things appear to have substance in AR then is
to drop down visual light to 15%.

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taneq
Maybe they reproject the view onto the screen in order to have (effectively)
passthrough VR while still looking like they have AR?

~~~
russdill
Pretty doubtful. One of their original claims was to produce blacks, which is
really hard in AR as you need to selectively block light. It initially sounds
easy until you realize your light blocking mechanism needs to be in focus. If
you use a lens to put it in focus, the things around it are now out of focus,
etc.

If you can't produce blacks, things behind AR objects bleed though. Your
objects appear as sci-fi holograms instead of real objects. Reducing pass
through light by 85% reduces bleed through by 85% and makes your objects
appear 85% more real.

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colordrops
What does "more VR than AR" even mean? Either the user is seeing virtual
objects overlaid on the real world or not. It has nothing to do with the
opacity of the lenses.

~~~
kbenson
If you can't see much of the real world (15% light penetration by this
account), how useful is that overlay? If it was 1% light penetration it would
look almost completely black, to the point you may not detect any real world
at all. At 99% light penetration, you probably can't even tell there's any
shading at all. Somewhere in the middle different people will draw the line as
to what's usable as AR and what isn't (and even then, it may depend on the
action being attempted).

~~~
colordrops
Yeah but it's not 1%. At 15% your eyes will adjust. Why bother with 15% if the
point is not to overlay on your surroundings?

~~~
nothrabannosir
_> Why bother with…_

Because they might have no choice. The million (billion?) dollar question is:
are they full of bull? That’s what this is all about.

He’s saying: they want to go higher than 15%, but they _can’t_. Not ‘they
choose not to.’ They would have if they could. And they can’t go 0% and full
VR because that would be admitting defeat, and the end of the gravy train.

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paul7986
AR Glasses are going to be as big as the Apple Watch.....

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yoz-y
So pretty good then? Apple Watch is doing extremely well.

