
Fasting diet 'regenerates diabetic pancreas' - ramblenode
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-39070183
======
micro_cam
Diabetic and former Diabetes genetic researcher here.

To paraphrase an old mentor, curing diabetes in mice is kind of the sport of
the field. It's been done a number of times. Mice have some abilities to
regrow tissue we don't. It's unclear how well various mouse models for
diabetes mimic the human phenotypes.

I am very hopefully for this line of research in general but I expect any cure
in humans will be more complex and perhaps also deal with somehow suppressing
the immune response that destroys the Beta cells in type 1's like myself. For
a type 1 the best I'd expect something like this to be able to achieve is a
temporary return to the "honeymoon" period where the pancreas still produces
enough insulin to make small adjustments but supplemental insulin is required.

On a personal level i have found that diet can have massive effects on my
diabetes management. I may try a diet like this (with the advice of a doctor
in adjusting insulin to handle it well etc and with the realization i may need
to break the diet to treat low blood sugars etc). Edit: I also use a
continuous glucose monitor which helps greatly with avoiding low bloodsugars
while changing diet/activity levels and recommend one to any other diabetics.

~~~
ecesena
"in mice" should be added to the title. this is (dangerous) clickbait.

~~~
rando444
I don't think that I would call a low calorie diet that only lasts for a few
days out of the entire month 'dangerous'.

~~~
ecesena
It's dangerous if you read "fasting can cure your diabetes", when the article
is about mice.

For the record, I have friends that are fasting, and family members with
diabetes.

If you have diabetes you can't fast without correcting the dosage of insulin
that you're taking. If, for example, you take a normal dosage of insulin, but
fail to consume the corresponding amount of sugars, your blood glucose level
will start decreasing. Soon you will faint, and your level will still go down.
Next step is coma, and finally death. So yes, I consider this dangerous.

The article also says "People are advised not to try this without medical
advice.", to reiterate that it is dangerous.

------
jimrandomh
I have gone through this thread and given a downvote to every post that's
giving dangerously-incorrect medical advice. Which seems to be most of them.

I don't expect anyone who's actually diabetic to fall for this; every T1
diabetic is in practice forced to become an expert. But, for the sake of
confused bystanders: for a diabetic using insulin, fasting is dangerous.
That's not an abundance of caution thing; we diabetics micromanage a key part
of our metabolism using insulin, and if we leave the range of metabolic states
we're familiar with we'll get insulin dosages wrong. The most likely outcome
of trying to fast for a day would be being forced to abort the fast by
hypoglycemia.

~~~
hockeybias
As a person with type 1 diabetes I would like to add that, just as one has to
learn what amounts of insulin to inject when one first starts using insulin
with his/her given diet, one would need to learn what amounts of insulin are
appropriate for the days one is on this diet.

And if you had to abort the fast a few times before you home in on your
insulin needs during the fast, that is not a life or death situation.

I feel you are being too cautious. Please chime in if you feel I'm being
cavalier. Thanks!

I too use a continuous glucose monitor.

------
karmel
It is worth noting that while there is evidence that murine beta cells can
regenerate even late into life, there is very little indication that human
beta cells can do the same. Many beta cell regeneration studies die in between
mouse and human studies. Some more on the questions around regeneration here:
[http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/59/10/2340](http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/59/10/2340)
with discussion of human versus rodent toward the end.

------
bresc
I don't understand why it's potentially so dangerous to try it out on your
own. Fasting is kinda natural. Assuming you go back to the roots and live in
the forest. You are not going to eat every day... so why is it suddenly so
dangerous? Some explanation on the risks would have been helpful.

~~~
sjcsjc
I agree. I've been water-only fasting five consecutive days every two weeks
for over a year now (largely but not entirely as a result of Longo's work).

I assume that telling people they need medical guidance before doing so is a
means of avoiding liability should someone do something stupid.

The only plausible risk I've seen mentioned, by Longo himself, is in women
where the risk of gallstones might be increased. To quote him "Water-only
fasting should only be done in a specialized clinic. Also, certain types of
very low calorie diets, and particularly those with high protein content, can
increase the incidence of gallstones in women at risk." [0]

The idea that water-only fasting should only be done "in a specialized clinic"
seems daft to me, but in a litigious society I can understand why he says
that.

Other researchers worth following in this area are Mark Mattson and Luigi
Fontana.

[0] [https://news.usc.edu/82959/diet-that-mimics-fasting-
appears-...](https://news.usc.edu/82959/diet-that-mimics-fasting-appears-to-
slow-aging/)

~~~
w23j
Can you point to any instructions on how to do water only fasts? It has been
surprisingly difficult to google. Most articles talk about intermittent
fasting or some variation of fasting, where people drink a lot of juice!

In particular I would like to know is it really necessary to use laxatives? Or
other supplements? Or do you just stop eating and then start slowly again 5
days later.

I have just done a 3 day water fast to give it a try. With mixed results.

~~~
sjcsjc
Hmm. Not really. I say water, btw, but I also drink black tea and occasional
diet cokes. The point is no calories, or virtually none.

I would suggest starting gradually. Initially I think I did 48hr fasts. After
a couple of years I upped to three days. Following Longo's stuff last year I
moved to five.

No supplements. Definitely no laxatives ;-)

I don't start eating again particularly slowly. But I don't binge either.

The most amazing thing to me is that I don't get hungry. I haven't eaten since
Sunday night, and I feel fine.

~~~
jalopy
I just searched "longo fasting" and this was the first result for me: "Fasting
Mimicking Diet". [https://prolonfmd.com/fasting-mimicking-
diet/](https://prolonfmd.com/fasting-mimicking-diet/)

It's a sales pitch so obviously needs caution here, but I'm curious - what do
you know about a "fasting mimicking diet"? Is it at all effective?

~~~
sjcsjc
Yeah that irritates me somewhat. His research is great but I have my
suspicions about the diet he's flogging. In my view the best way to mimic
fasting is by not eating anything.

[edit] btw I suggest using google scholar rather than google. intermittent
fasting, periodic fasting, prolonged fasting, calorie restriction. Lots of
interesting stuff in there.

------
hannob
Yesterday: BBC story about replication problems in science and weak studies at
the top of hacker news.

Today: Story about a weak, non-replicated animal study at the top of hacker
news.

~~~
baldfat
You can always look into fasting as a medical research study. For the last few
decades it just keeps increasing.

1) Decades old research on brain capacity and benefits of fasting
[http://www.johnshopkinshealthreview.com/issues/spring-
summer...](http://www.johnshopkinshealthreview.com/issues/spring-
summer-2016/articles/are-there-any-proven-benefits-to-fasting)

2) Fasting increases chemotheraphy effectiveness in some chemos.
[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fasting-might-
boo...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fasting-might-boost-chemo/)

The research has been going on for a decade about metabolic.

I use to fast once a week from dinner to dinner (Prior to midnight day break
most of the world's day started at sunset so a day fast was from sunset to
sunset). I seriously need to jump back on the fasting bandwagon my self-
discipline has gotten lower and lower ever since I hit my mid-thirties and got
married.

~~~
hannob
Not sure what you're trying to tell me. The first link you provide doesn't
link to the original research it's talking about. The second is about a mouse
study.

Maybe you're trying to reinforce my point that the HN audience likes to quote
weak scientific evidence.

~~~
baldfat
Not sure if your just a cynic and distrust everything or your trying to be a
skeptic and try and find the truth.

This is what makes medical research. Using mice is a very established way of
testing hypothesis. Are you trying to say that we should only trust human
studies when humans can't be controlled and limit what is impacting the body?

I also fail to see that research not being reproducible = weak science when
you then knock a study that is reproducible but then you knock it for being
not human based. The fact that a lot of science isn't reproducible has many
honest scientific reasons, while other's are fraud.

------
austinjp
Reddit thread with lots of discussion:

[http://reddit.com/r/science/comments/5vufpb/the_pancreas_can...](http://reddit.com/r/science/comments/5vufpb/the_pancreas_can_be_triggered_to_regenerate/)

------
rb1
AFAIK, type 1 diabetes is thought to be an autoimmune disease, where the
immune system incorrectly identifies the beta cells as an infection/foreign
body and destroys them.

With that in mind, I wonder how effective this actually is. I (I'm a T1
diabetic) grow some new beta cells, my overly aggressive immune system wipes
them out again..

EDIT: reading the reddit thread
([https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/5vufpb/the_pancrea...](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/5vufpb/the_pancreas_can_be_triggered_to_regenerate/)
\- thanks austinjp) i'm not the only one to ask this. The general consensus is
it's not going to be useful for T1 diabetics, it's just treating the symptoms,
not the cause (the immune system), again (like injecting insulin).

~~~
6d6b73
This might have something to do with that study few years ago that indicated
that fast 3 day fast resets the immune system.

Prolonged Fasting Reduces IGF-1/PKAto Promote Hematopoietic-Stem-Cell-Based
Regeneration and Reverse Immunosuppression

[https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B97CJJ5YOfctTUoxWkVFN3Y4b3M](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B97CJJ5YOfctTUoxWkVFN3Y4b3M)

~~~
cmdrfred
I wonder if this might of been a repair mechanism evolved when going some time
without access to food was more common. Perhaps there is a biological reason
certain organs can't be repaired while the digestive system is running at full
capacity.

------
cromulent
A friend of mine was on the brink of Type 2 diabetes and reversed the symptoms
/ indicators after reading about the Newcastle University study. Worked for
him.

[http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/news/2015/10/type2diabetes/](http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/news/2015/10/type2diabetes/)

~~~
noir_lord
I had metabolic syndrome x, pretty much the final stage before type 2
diabetes.

I also had an undiagnosed (despite every test the docs could think off).

I went on a 1500 calorie a day diet for 7 months and dropped weight from
245lbs to 185lbs (I'm 6 foot) at the next doc appointment indicators where all
in normal range and at the most recent they where all excellent for someone my
age.

Diet for this 7 months was cottage cheese, veg, nuts and rolled oat porridge
with either chicken or fish and veg.

No fruit, lots of supplements and a protein shake before bed.

First month was grim I felt terrible all the time but every month after was
easier.

~~~
mwpmaybe
Undiagnosed what?

------
DrScump
PDF of the paper in Cell, with images:

[http://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(17)30130-7.pdf](http://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674\(17\)30130-7.pdf)

Details on the human feedings:

"The human version of the FMD is a propriety formulation belonging to L-Nutra
([http://l-nutra.com/prolon/](http://l-nutra.com/prolon/)). It is a plant-
based diet designed to attain fasting-like effects on the serum levels of
IGF-I, IGFBP1, glucose and ketone bodies while providing both macro- and
micronutrients to minimize the burden of fasting and adverse effects
(Brandhorst et al., 2015). Day 1 of the FMD supplies ∼4600 kJ (11% protein,
46% fat, 43% carbohydrate), whereas days 2-5 provide ∼3000 kJ (9% protein, 44%
fat, 47% carbohydrate) per day. The FMD comprises proprietary formulations of
vegetable-based soups, energy bars, energy drinks, chip snacks, tea, and a
supplement providing high levels of minerals, vitamins and essential fatty
acids (Figure S3). All items to be consumed per day were individually boxed to
allow the subjects to choose when to eat while avoiding accidentally consuming
components of the following day. For the human subjects, a suggested FMD meal
plan was provided that distributes the study foods to be consumed as
breakfast, lunch, snacks, and dinner. (See lists below for ingredients and
supplements)"

------
hajderr
I'm a fan of fasting, thanks for sharing this!

All guys/gals with any sort of disease, I pray you all get well and better
soon!

------
johnspiral
Type 1 diabetic here, I'm sure if you still retain a small amount of basal
insulin in combination with regular glucose monitoring I can't see how it
would be dangerous? The real danger would be the billion dollar insulin
business looking to discredit this research.

~~~
llccbb
The insulin cartels are real!

------
eyugwefuy
How to read this thread: "what's right _for me_" not "what's right".

Also, it's impractical to fast when you have work to do and meetings. You risk
becoming cranky and grumpy and pissing colleagues off. Better to fast when you
have a day off or at night.

------
amelius
> He told the BBC: "It boils down to do not try this at home, this is so much
> more sophisticated than people realise." He said people could "get into
> trouble" with their health if it was done without medical guidance.

Ok, where can I find more information?

~~~
hownottowrite
[http://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(17)30130-7](http://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674\(17\)30130-7)

It's called a fast mimicking diet or FMD.

Quantified Bob took it on last year:
[https://www.quantifiedbob.com/2016/04/fasting-mimicking-
diet...](https://www.quantifiedbob.com/2016/04/fasting-mimicking-diet/)

------
gukov
If T1D is properly managed (frequent testing, insulin injection every meal),
fasting actually poses less danger than a typical diet that has carbs in every
meal. Carbs set you up for a wild swing.

~~~
consp
I would like to have some info on that as when I don't eat for extended
periods of time my bloodsucker goes haywire no matter what I do (insulin
wise), as well as having nightly hypoglycemia no matter what. Nobody reacts
the same unfortunately...

~~~
gukov
The liver dumps some glucose in the morning (partly to wake you up). You're
also somewhat insulin resistant in the morning. I take 3-4 units just to stay
level until lunch, when insulin starts working again. As the day progresses, I
feel like the body becomes saturated with insulin, and everything is more
predictable. I try not to eat after 8-9pm. Pretty similar to the eight hour
diet: you eat between noon and 8pm. Hope that helps.

------
perseusprime11
There was a headline yesterday on HN that most scientific results cannot be
peer reviewed. Maybe this too falls in that category and we have to take it
with a grain of salt.

------
overcast
Apparently I've been fasting daily pretty much most of my adult life. Last
meal between 17-20, I generally never eat breakfast, and then eat lunch
between 12-14. Maybe that explains why I'm rarely sick, and haven't been to a
doctor since I was fourteen?

~~~
dgut
Maybe. It's ancient wisdom one should only eat when hungry. :)

~~~
overcast
Well, I'm hungry all day, I've always been. 6'1, 175, weight barely
fluctuates, and I'm going on 37.

------
sdiepend
Recent related discussion from hn:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13686671](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13686671)

------
mrfusion
I'm confused. I thought type 2 diabetes was cells becoming resistant to
insulin. Not anything wrong with the pancreas.

~~~
cowpewter
High blood sugar damages the pancreas beta cells. If you have poorly
controlled high blood sugar for long enough, you will lose the ability to make
insulin in addition to being insulin resistant.

~~~
consp
That is type 2 diabetes, and is genrerally avoidable with proper diet anyways
for most people. (your results may vary). This won't fix any type 1 people
otherwise plenty of teenage girls would have been gotten rid of t1 diabetes
already.

~~~
cowpewter
I was replying to a comment about T2 diabetes.

If you're genetically predisposed, then "proper diet" is pretty strict. I am a
T2 diabetic, and control my blood sugar with a low carb diet. I'm pretty
familiar.

------
dghughes
As someone with diabetes on both sides of my family this sounds dangerous even
under a doctor's supervision.

