
Ask HN: Should I quit my job if I am not learning? - houseofshards
I graduated with a B.S. Computer Science in 2013 and joined a (moderately large) software company in the Bay Area. When I accepted the offer, I was led to believe that I will be working with the company&#x27;s search&#x2F;recommendations&#x2F;data products team - a role that will be a combination of software engineering and applied research (information retrieval, machine learning). But so far, I have been asked to work on things like the company&#x27;s metrics pipeline and various dashboards etc. I am really frustrated about the fact that I don&#x27;t get to work on any products&#x2F;applications - the work is not satisfying and I feel my software engineering skills are eroding.<p>Should I wait for my 1 year cliff or quit immediately or not quit at all?
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hvd
Welcome to the industry, you are a professional now. As a freshman in a
moderately sized company, the projects you are given are a way for them to
assess you. Do them well. Observe what problems are being solved and what
aren't? Is there a process that can be improved? Go build it. Satisfying your
work is a stepping stone to building expertise and will enable you to demand
better tasks. This is based on what I experienced
[http://hkelkar.com/2013/01/01/being-
craftsman/](http://hkelkar.com/2013/01/01/being-craftsman/). You can always
learn on your own, coursera, projects on github etc. If you still think you
are not learning, then most certainly move. Good luck!

~~~
idunno246
This. A lot of work isn't sexy, and some amount of time will be spent doing
tasks like these no matter where you're at.

If you don't prove that you can do these tasks well, we wouldn't trust you
with the harder stuff. Another benefit is this gives you a wider understanding
of the different parts of the system.

~~~
oebi
I agree that work isn't all sexy. That said, I've also seen places where they
don't want you to do harder/more interesting stuff, they just need those
boring tasks to be done with. And if you're any good at it, chances are
they'll leave them to you. It's much more rewarding to do the required boring
unexciting stuff at a place where you take (or know you will take) a part in
the bigger picture.

Not saying that you shouldn't stick through because I agree that there is
always something to learn, especially at the beginning. That said, look out
for opportunities to grow - either inside or outside your company. Don't
settle in boredom land.

------
ChuckMcM
Its a useful question to ask yourself. But it brings another one up which is
"Why are you not learning?" Not to be too flippant here but there is always
things around you to learn but besides the latest algorithm, things like
development habits, or team interactions, or even project planning. Useful
stuff to be sure, and something people often learn in their first job out of
school.

That said, if you're not learning and your day is full, then you might try
working on ways to free up time in your day (learning to automate things), and
if your day isn't full learning other parts of the stack can be fun too. You
could always chat with your manager about it, that is part of their job
description :-)

~~~
colmvp
> You could always chat with your manager about it, that is part of their job
> description :-)

It should be pretty obvious. Hell, I'm not even a manager for other
departments and I can easily tell when people don't feel motivated or
stretched enough mentally to feel like staying with a company.

~~~
AznHisoka
you'd be surprised. a lot of managers don't care about their employees.

------
nostrademons
Not learning anything is a very good reason to quit a job. However - there's a
ton to learn in metrics pipelines and experiment analysis, and many of the
basic skills there are critical for information retrieval and machine
learning. Are you actually not learning anything, or are you learning things
that you don't realize are important yet?

~~~
projectramo
I agree with this. For my first real job we were monkeying around with data
and analysis, but we all envied the people who were doing the "high level"
strategy i.e. coming up with metrics, and figuring out the direction of the
company. It turns out that those "boring" database and statistical analysis
skills lead to many many dividends in almost every single job since.

------
jey
Jeff Bezos had some thoughts on this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwG_qR6XmDQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwG_qR6XmDQ)

Personally, I think you should get out of there before your brain turns to
mush and falls out. Other posters are telling you to instead perceive it as a
blessing to work on these things that you find mundane and boring, but I
strongly disagree. To quote Paul Graham, "If you're worried that your current
job is rotting your brain, it probably is."

Don't quit, but start applying/interviewing for a new job. You will need to
have a good explanation for why you're looking for a new job so quickly after
starting, but that's doable. You're in a pretty strong position if you start
interviewing for new jobs before quitting -- at least that makes it clear that
you weren't fired, and it'll sound credible when you tell them that you're
just not challenged enough by your current job.

~~~
buwilliams
Grateful for your helpful advice. I was so moved that I blogged about this at
my blog, Daily Autodidactic,
[http://www.dailyautodidactic.com/post/77180224570/how-
using-...](http://www.dailyautodidactic.com/post/77180224570/how-using-regret-
helps-with-big-career-life-decisions). Again, thank you for taking the time to
help this person and me.

------
GFK_of_xmaspast
If I see a resume from a kid fresh out of college that didn't even last a year
in their previous/current job, unless I know the company to be exceptionally
crappy I'm gonna assume that kid's a quitter.

~~~
ssafejava
That's nonsense. There are a lot of reasons that a first (or any) job isn't a
fit, and a whole lot of them aren't caused by the employee's negative traits.

Just to name a few: the job description didn't match the actual job,
overbearing managers, overbearing coworkers, uninteresting work, a better
offer elsewhere, changing interests, or - just like OP - the employee feels
like he would grow his talents better elsewhere. I have been in the same
situation and employers have understood and respected my decision.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
Those are exactly the kinds of answers a quitter would give though. "Oh, my
managers were overbearing." "Oh, I wasn't interested in the work."

This career's not easy. This career's not always fun. There's strong
personalities all over. Sometimes the going gets tough, how do I know this
person's going to get going or just get gone?

------
kfk
Be really aware of your attitude. If you are not happy about this and you show
it too much, they will not want to work with you as you just became a problem.
If you are interviewing, be sure to be positive about this experience no
matter what. If you enter a spiral of complain/non satisfaction, you will ruin
your chances of getting better tasks or a new job.

~~~
skuunk1
Upvoting this. Never ever complain about your current job when interviewing
for a new job. Always spin it in a positive way. People in the new job won't
care about your old job and complaining during an interview looks like sour
grapes.

You need positive reasons for making the move (talk up how much you feel the
new job will help you and how you can contribute to the company). In fact, if
you make it seem like you don't really want to leave your current role you
might even get a higher salary than the one posted (provided you can convince
them you are a good fit).

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
Try not to complain about your previous jobs or schooling either unless it
makes a really really good story (and get confirmation on this from
independent sources).

Like, I interview a paerson who dropped out of graduate school or left after a
master's, I want to hear things like "I decided academia and I weren't good
fits for each other" or "the two-body problem" or even "ain't no faculty jobs,
yo", and I don't want to hear "my advisor's a jerk", even if your advisor is
such a jerko supremo they get blogged about or something.

EDIT: What I'm trying to get across with these posts is "don't give me a
reason to say 'no'."

------
zxcvvcxz
Quitting sounds like it could be the right choice, modulo some real-life
constraints. One of which _might_ be, if it's your very first job, not staying
for at least 6 - 12 months. There's some value to putting in those dues,
you'll learn for sure what you dislike. But after that...

A lot of people are suggesting to stick it out, learn from what's there, make
the best of it, etc. But this advice is lazy at best, and maximizes regret at
worst. You see, this could be applied to almost any job, even within software
engineering. Because this advice implies that anyone can be fulfilled at any
job, it implies to favor the default option of sticking where you ended up,
which was made at a time where you had less information and experience. Worse,
it may imply that somebody else has authority over your opinion or "tastes",
if you will - you ought to like this job, so find something you like there!
Because otherwise, your unhappiness is your own damn fault (which it really
is, but not the way others mean).

No. Here's what you do. Before you discount it and consider quitting, consider
the following:

1) What kind of work would you ideally be doing at this organization that
would make you want to stay?

2) Speak with your manager or someone relevant, to figure out what conditions
need to be met until you can do the work in 1.

3) Is the path to get there too painful? Pain is relative, and the way to find
out is to research other jobs you could be starting in the next month. You can
do this on weekends, everyday after work, whatever. It's important, so you'll
make time.

I'm trying to advocate that there's nothing wrong with having taste and
preferring something else, or simply disliking what you have. But instead of
going too far in that direction and just up and leaving, be smart about it and
do your homework. At least then you can be more confident that you made the
right decision (stay/go) rather than following some blanketed advice based on
responses to your limited detail post on your situation.

Hope this helps.

------
TWAndrews
When you say you aren't learning, are you referring only to your development
as a software engineer, or are you also referring to your skills as an
employee?

Learning how to operate in a moderately large company is a skill, and requires
you to understand how to assess the value of projects you're working on, how
to make them more valuable, and how to find things which would be valuable
that you can work on of your own volition.

In general, you'll be asked to demonstrate competence on risk-free projects
before you're given the keys to bigger things. Demonstrate excellence on those
and then ask for more challenging work.

------
jdubya
Wait for the cliff and start a side project that will allow you to learn.

~~~
elwell
You took my words exactly.

------
ergoproxy
I used to interview applicants for technical jobs at a Wall St bank. Most
applicants were straight out of school with a B.S. in ComSci. There was a huge
disconnect between what these kids wanted to do and what they would actually
do if they got the job-- The work they wanted to do was reserved for the
people with Ph.D.s and more work experience. I used to strongly discourage
these kids from taking the job. When they did, they were soon very unhappy.
They either quit or got themselves fired. The partners didn't care about the
high turnover, because there was always a large applicant pool and the work
always managed to get done.

If you quit, you can't be sure your next job will be any different.

If you can afford it, go back to school and get a Ph.D. in machine learning or
whatever most interests you. That's the only way you can be sure you'll get a
job doing the kind of work you like.

------
fourstar
Ask your manager. Ultimately if they are a good company with good managers,
they will want to keep you and make you happy. Otherwise, if they don't do
anything, then you already pretty much made up your mind enough to want to
question us about it.

------
bobbles
Do I really want a new job?

Ask yourself the following questions:

Do I know what is expected of me at work?

Do I have the materials and equipment I need to do my work right?

At work, do I have the opportunity to do what I do best everyday?

In the last seven days, have I received recognition or praise for doing good
work?

Does my supervisor or someone at work seem to care about me as a person?

Is there someone at work who encourages my development?

At work, do my opinions seem to count?

Does the mission/purpose of my company make me feel my job is important?

Are my co-workers committed to doing quality work?

Do I have a best friend at work?

In the last six months, has someone at work talked to me about my progress?

This last year, have I had the opportunity at work to learn and grow?

------
richsin
Start looking, the worst thing I did in my 20's was doing the same thing over
and over for years. Yes, you can learn on your own and grow - which is a must,
but doing interesting things is absolutely important to keep your passion
alive. At the same time, make sure that you are communicating your concerns
with your manager/ceo and don't put yourself in the position where you become
a volatile hire.

I was once told, a squeaking wheel always gets greased.

------
andymoe
Are they RSUs you can sell on the open market after the cliff or options of a
pre-ipo company? The calculus is pretty different in each case.

Money buys flexibility and the ability to take risks with larger payoffs and
that is not to be underestimated. How long do you have to go? For me,
experiences, especially the bad ones, have been valuable. Learn how to excel
in a broken org but don't hang around too long. Finally, always be
interviewing. Good luck.

~~~
houseofshards
Thanks for your input !

"How long do you have to go? For me, experiences, especially the bad ones,
have been valuable" \- can you elaborate ? How can I make the most of my time
here ?

~~~
andymoe
Well, I spent seven years working in IT for financial services. Way too long.
I spent a number of years working as a Network Engineer for a consulting firm.
Ground out a year doing QA work at Apple. I built mobile games (in 5-10 weeks
each) for a buddy of mine and watched his apps go from 100k to 5MM+ installs.
Hell, in high school I sanded furniture and bussed tables and there were even
lessons there.

I learned things from each experience. Some lesson were way more valuable than
they initially seemed. Like how to over communicate and that consulting is
about service first and the technology second. That I don't like to work with
people that don't care about their job. From the same people I realized it's a
marathon and not a sprint. How to build consensus and work with people whose
approach you fundamentally disagree with. Why marketing and market fit is
really important and that if you build it they won't necessarily come. The
importance of seeking out mentors and maintaining relationships. How to time a
move to maximized the number of RSUs that vest (or to get more when you are
hired - they won't give you a higher salary? Ask for something else they can
give you.) or that you can line up a new job and then make them wait until a
retention bonus is paid out.

In summary, there is more to this game than just your algorithms and computer
code. At the same time, don't let people take advantage, ask for what you
want, figure out how to get it or go elsewhere but be smart about it and don't
leave money or something else valuable on the table.

------
sahinyanlik
I'm having same problem with you. And I am going to quit my job in 1 week. I
hope next job gives me excitement about developing. It was my 6th month in
here.

------
gk1
Have you talked with your manager? If you don't feel you're being challenged,
speak up or find your own challenges (as hvd notes here).

------
lunz
Maybe you can convince your manager to tackle this more rationally and let
people purposely learn because they do it anyway: They experiment, over-
engineer, try the latest hype with their actual moneymaker products, making
the work day less dull, upholding self-esteem and preserving skills (market
value). It's not professional but people are not robots.

------
ciscoriordan
Since it's a moderately large company, you should have a good sense for what
the cliff is worth.

I would either leave immediately for a company that makes products you want to
work on or start my own thing after hitting the cliff.

I made a similar choice recently. My email's in my profile, if you'd like to
talk.

------
platz
Exactly what kind of things are you expecting to work on that would satify
you, if "metrics pipeline, various dashboards, analysis of online experiments"
are not examples of "products" and "applications" ?

~~~
houseofshards
well, creating metrics to measure product usage, creating dashboards that help
summarize and visualize these metrics isn't exactly in the same boat as
working on search relevance. Most of the dashboards in my company are created
using tools like Tableau or some JS/Python/MySQL. At best I am learning how to
hack together some simple web.

~~~
hamburglar
It helps to realize any problem (ok, most problems) can be interesting if you
look for ways to make it interesting. I hacked together some simple web for my
company's internal dashboards and they work fine but I have a million ideas
for how I can improve them, but I've always got more pressing priorities to
worry about. As a result, I never actually have the time to spend on them. If
my manager told me "I want you to spend the next two weeks working solely on
the dashboards" I could interpret it as shit work (I mean, come on, we all
realize dashboards are pretty boring) or an opportunity to get creative.

My job satisfaction has increased greatly with the ability to drop the ego and
take an unglamorous task and just do a good job on it.

~~~
nostrademons
"we all realize dashboards are pretty boring"

Hah, one of my first jobs at Google was to do the dashboards for our feature's
dogfood, and my manager had to tell us "I know that engineers love to tweak
dashboards and make them look pretty, but please try not to spend too much
time on them, we have other important things to do."

------
Aloha
I'd argue that working with a team is a more valuable tool than any other
particular skill.

You can always code the stuff you want as hobbies - I grow my skills on my
own, then look for jobs to help me bring that stuff onto my resume.

------
r3nd
From my experience, if you are considering quitting, you are already planning
to do this. If you have the funds to go unemployed for a few months, resign
and spend some free time on the things you want to learn.

------
malditojavi
If you ask this today, Im sure tomorrow you won't ask it, but directly quit.
Feeling stuck, without no professional development is the main reason to look
for something else.

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mdxprograms
quit. I've been through 4 jobs within a year in a half and finally found the
job that fits and gives me the challenge and freedoms I want. the beauty about
today is we have an opportunity to decide where we go because the demand is
ridiculously high. You as a developer, should always strive for a challenge,
whether that's at the job or at home doing a personal project, but always
strive for happiness in what you do.

------
mailsortr
Try to do everything you can to move into a desired role before jumping ship.
I would wait at least one year before you make the move

------
kylefox
The frustrating thing about learning is you often don't really know what
knowledge is useful until years after you acquire it.

------
lsh123
shoot me an email at aleksey at aleksey dot com with your resume/linkedin
profile/whatever - I am hiring for a project where you'll have to handle near
real time big (a few TBs/day) data (yes, it's also analytics and not a lot of
ML but there are some pretty cool technologies and hard questions to figure
out)

