
C.I.A. Concludes That Saudi Crown Prince Ordered Khashoggi Killed - longerthoughts
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/16/us/politics/cia-saudi-crown-prince-khashoggi.html
======
anon007
Do you all think Silicon Valley should make a public statement and distance
themselves from MBS?

After all the photo-ops among executives at Apples, Google and FB it looks
embarrassing to have a photo with a possible murderer out there. Or from the
PR perspective, it's best to keep quiet and not remind the public at all and
hope no one would bring it up?

~~~
craftyguy
> Do you all think Silicon Valley should make a public statement and distance
> themselves from MBS?

Silicon Valley should have made a public statement a long time ago about what
MBS is doing to Yemen. It's quite ridiculous that being directly responsible
for the deaths of thousands is A-OK, but ohhh kill one journalist and the
western world loses their shit.

~~~
austincheney
I am not excusing any belligerents in the Yemen conflict, however the cause of
that conflict is a coup that resulted in a failed extremist state. Conditions
for the people of Yemen would be dire no matter which way that military
intervention went. This is, unfortunately, the reason why that conflict isn't
getting more attention.

~~~
anoncoward111
Spare me. Countries can figure their shit out pretty quickly when they aren't
being attacked by rich foreign neighbors.

~~~
mayukh
What?? Africa, Latin America, whole swathes of planet earth, time and over
again that disagree vehemently with that. Who needs enemies (or hostile
neighbors) when corrupt and greedy denizens breed within.

~~~
Sag0Sag0
What are you talking about? Latin America and Africa have had non stop foreign
intervention since the 16th century. Rich angry neighbours / foreign
interventions have always created huge amounts of corruption and instability
and are the root cause of many of these countries problems.

You also seem to be implying that African and Latin American people are just
naturally more corrupt than the inhabitants of other nations which is a kinda
bizarre theory.

------
boomboomsubban
If it went down anything like how the Saudi aid reported, practically
everything was done over Skype. As we know that the intelligence community has
been granted unfettered access to Skype, this entire investigation seems like
a show crafted to sway public opinion, making me doubtful anything will
change.

Still, always interesting to see how much more important one US resident is
versus thousands of Yemeni civilians.

~~~
fergbrain
This is probably an unpopular opinion: I do think the US should _do_ more
about a US person being killed versus a person with no legal/jurisdictional
ties to the US.

This isn’t to say that the US should _care_ less about a non-US person, but
that the issues with violation of state sovereignty (aka Westphalian
sovereignty) are too grave to advocate action.

~~~
boomboomsubban
>This isn’t to say that the US should care less about a non-US person, but
that the issues with violation of state sovereignty (aka Westphalian
sovereignty) are too grave to advocate action.

If this is the issue, the US should not start/participate/assist in wars that
violate international law, should not run a drone strike program that allows
an arbitrary death sentence without any trial, should stop their policy of
regime change and interference in foreign governments, and the countless other
ways we usurp sovereignty.

In theory I completely agree with you, but this bridge has long since been
crossed, and I doubt that it is the reason the media only cares if there is a
tie to the US.

------
_cs2017_
CIA has a long history of misleading the public, and even the Congress.
Examples:

[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/michael-morell-apologizes-
colin...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/michael-morell-apologizes-colin-powell-
about-cia-pre-iraq-war-wmd-evidence/)

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_co...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_cocaine_trafficking)

[https://www.cnn.com/2013/08/19/politics/cia-
iran-1953-coup/](https://www.cnn.com/2013/08/19/politics/cia-iran-1953-coup/)

Why do people still take their statements, and even their leaks, as truth?

~~~
nickthemagicman
Yeah but doesn't take a billion-dollar intelligence program to look at the
evidence and determine what happened to Kashoggi.

The CIA in this case is merely reflecting the sentiments of countless govts,
news agencies, and individuals.

------
nradov
Turkey has been playing a masterful game of "trickle truth" perfectly timed
with the media cycle to undermine the Saudi regime. I'm surprised at how well
they're managing international propaganda considering that many of their
previous efforts on other issues were clumsy and ineffectual.

------
godelmachine
>> _Officials cautioned, however, that the American and Turkish intelligence
agencies still do not have direct evidence linking Prince Mohammed to the
assassination._

~~~
salimmadjd
you forgot to include the prior sentence:

 _The evidence included an intercept showing a member of the kill team calling
an aide to Prince Mohammed and saying “tell your boss” that the mission was
accomplished._

~~~
godelmachine
I don't think that's a direct evidence.

------
jillesvangurp
The noteworthy thing here is not that the Saudi's are doing stuff like this
but that the CIA is calling them out on it instead of helping their former
ally to bury the bodies and get away with it.

It's a big change. The Saudi's have been instrumental for decades in the
foreign policy of the US in the middle east. And that's despite al queeda, IS,
etc being founded by Saudi's and openly funded by them. For decades it was
very convenient for the US to provide active military support to the Saudi's
in various ugly wars by proxy in the region and look the other way when it
came to such things like genocide, occasional bombing of schools, hospitals,
etc., Muslim extremists, and public beheadings.

However, recent focus on energy independence and a string of embarrassing
incidents around e.g. Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc. seems to be souring the
relationship. Times are changing.

------
jhallenworld
I'm wondering if this is to head off Trump allowing Fethullah Gulen from being
extradited..

[https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/if-trump-sacrifices-
fe...](https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/if-trump-sacrifices-fethullah-
gulen-protect-saudi-arabia-he-will-ncna937281)

Erdoğan wants him, but in return for what? Maybe preventing the audio of the
killing ending up on YouTube (or otherwise made public). If the CIA is saying
MBS ordered the killing, the effect is maybe the same.

Also: why does the CIA care what happens to Gulen?

~~~
tehwebguy
Wait so we might keep Gulen, infuriate Erdoğan _and_ get the audio publicly
released?

Talk about win-win-win!

~~~
thaumasiotes
How is keeping Gulen a win?

------
JohnBooty
Interesting, very interesting. Which "American officials" leaked this to the
NYT, and why?

    
    
        > The Central Intelligence Agency has concluded that the Saudi crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, ordered the killing of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi, according to American officials
    

1\. Leaked late on a Friday. The traditional time to release news that you
hope gets forgotten ASAP. So the "sources" wanted this story out there, but
not _too_ out there? Maybe this isn't significant; maybe the leakers wanted
the news out there sooner but the NYT didn't run the story right away.

2\. Leaked to a liberal-leaning news source as opposed to one more friendly to
conservatives. Don't know what to make of that decision either but it was a
conscious one.

3\. What were they hoping to accomplish by making it public?

Most obvious explanation: they leaked this because they didn't trust the White
House to tell the public about this; they feared the White House would simply
bury this finding in order to maintain their relationship with Saudi Arabia.

Alternate explanation: The White House leaked it themselves. Gives them an
"excuse" to punish Saudi Arabia while claiming they had no choice in the
matter since the "CIA leak" tied their hands. In other words, they are
attempting to eat their cake and have it too... punishing the Saudis _and_
trying to maintain a good relationship with them.

(folks, why the downvotes? If you don't want politics on HN, fine, but I
didn't post the story. I just replied to it... and I hardly feel my post here
is partisan or negative in any way...)

~~~
Consultant32452
>Most obvious explanation: they leaked this because they didn't trust the
White House to tell the public about this; surely they feared the White House
would simply bury this finding in order to maintain their relationship with
Saudi Arabia.

Prediction: The White House is going to maintain its relationship with Saudi
Arabia anyways. All this might do is force the administration to make some
sort of symbolic gesture of finger wagging at them.

------
AKifer
Given the link between the US and the KSA, from a pure analyst view, if the
CIA is giving away conclusion like that publicly, it's highly probable that
something is brewing and under preparation somewhere.

------
bvxvbxbxb
My mechanic from Dubai concluded this 5 weeks ago.. nothing in Saudi Arabia
moves without MBS ordering it. Most likely, MBS watched the killing, and
possibly dismemberment, live via encrypted video link.

~~~
mengibar10
Everybody is dragging their feet not to blame MBS. Why? it's just because
murderer is a filthy rich guy. You do not need be from Dubai to arrive the
same conclusion.

------
PeterMikhailov
My new YC application is for an app that detects when dang goes home for the
weekend by detecting when cranks start commenting on threads for links to non
tech news.

------
gaius
In the UK we have a phrase for government departments who issue statements
like this: “Ministry of the Bleedin’ Obvious”

------
Tsubasachan
Trump must be seething with envy, he'd have the entire CNN staff assassinated
like that.

