
LinkedIn rejects engineering ads with female images, bans account - kowdermeister
http://www.toptal.com/remote/in-defense-of-female-engineers
======
mjolk
>The fact of the matter is: members of the tech community (LinkedIn users) saw
it as impossible that our female engineers could actually be engineers, and a
leader of the tech community (LinkedIn) agreed with them.

Oh, quiet you. The text sounds scammy and the photos of attractive women just
give the entire thing a 'spam' feel. It's not a slight against female
engineers.

~~~
smegel
Apparently they only had an issue with the images specifically...so maybe they
just have a problem with attractive women.

Strange nonetheless.

~~~
cbhl
To be honest, I actually find the copy rather disturbing -- it reminds me of
the copy I've seen used to advertise sites that provide video chat services.

~~~
smegel
Maybe, but if the pictures were male engineers, would you even blink or look
twice?

~~~
mkr-hn
Given the same pose, lighting, and composition, absolutely.

------
PhasmaFelis
Ugh. What a mess.

I really don't know how to feel about this. On the one hand, God, does it ever
look bad. On the other hand, I glance at the two ads they're showing there,
and my first impulse is "they slapped some stock photos of attractive women on
there to give male viewers an endorphin kick." They're a far cry from the
"look! boobs!" of Evony ads, but they also don't look like women ready for a
day at the office. I know from the article that these are actual, working
female engineers, but part of me wants to say that the ad designer obviously
picked them for "sexy" as opposed to "professional," and that seems sleazy and
sad. But on the other hand, who the hell am I to tell any professional how to
dress or style their hair? But on the third hand, if I'm right it's not the
fault of the engineers but of the ad designers...

Augh, I kinda feel like an asshole just for thinking about this.

~~~
munin
> they also don't look like women ready for a day at the office.

Really? How do you judge that? Why do you say that?

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Essentially, their hair, makeup, clothing, and body language all suggest
someone who's getting a glamour shot taken to me, and don't much resemble the
women I work with and have worked with. And this is of course a hideously
vague and completely subjective standard, and I really do worry that I'm being
unfair.

Except.

Except that, when I wrote my first post, there were two people pictured in
that article. Now there's only one. There's only one because someone in the
comments pointed out that the first woman was not, in fact, an engineer
employed by Toptal, but a actress whose glamour shot Toptal had swiped. Now,
mysteriously, that comment is gone, there's only one woman in the article, and
there's no mention of the edit.

So...I'm not as worried now as I was yesterday.

------
pallandt
I can understand completely why the ads were banned. Mind you, I'm female
myself.

Most female developers simply do not look as 'picture-perfect' as the one
Toptal decided to use in their ads or at least not at work.

That particular photograph looks too staged and is not particularly suggestive
that it was shot to be used in a technical career context.

Toptal chose an outlier to represent the majority and that is dishonest to the
user population targeted by the ad.

Florencia, the developer pictured in the ad should've supplied different
pictures or the company should've asked for them itself, preferably pictures
with more work-appropriate clothing, like a t-shirt, shirt or blouse of some
sort.

I seriously doubt any female programmer goes to work in that sort of attire,
not only it would be over the top in 99% of the cases, it would be damn
uncomfortable.

~~~
rdouble
When I worked at fashion startups in New York, women did wear outfits like
this, including the engineers. The engineer in question is in Buenos Aires
where both sexes tend to have a bit more flair.

~~~
14113
Key point here: Fashion startup. I'm not trying to argue that women never
dress like that anywhere else, but I think you've got a very skewed viewpoint.

~~~
rdouble
I agree that it's probably not something a Cisco engineer would be wearing,
but it seems like a normal 20-something outfit in Manhattan.

------
cupcake-unicorn
I'm a female engineer, and easily get upset over stuff like this, but I can
see why they rejected the ads...maybe banning was extreme, but those images
really look like spam ads. While not particularly distasteful, generally men
in ads like these are either doing something "businessy" or wearing a business
suit, etc. to indicate the connection. I wonder if this would have happened if
they showed less glamorous women in pictures where they were in the workplace,
interacting with computers. etc.

The poster doesn't really seem to get it. They argue their male ads are the
same - but then specifically mention glasses for some reason. I'm guessing the
male pictures have a much more "professional" and less sexualized look to
them. They should try to run ads with shirtless guys at the beach, and see if
they get rejected then...

Edit: Wow, OK - follow the link to see the second engineer's profile :
[http://www.toptal.com/resume/florencia-
antara](http://www.toptal.com/resume/florencia-antara) The picture on her page
there looks fun and realistic. I'd love to see that kind of photo on an ad!
The fact that this developer is choosing this photo for herself and the
company is instead very deliberately choosing a glamorous and sexy feel for
the photos really doesn't do much for their credibility. Explicitly going out
of their way to make photos like this - that the woman herself doesn't choose
to represent herself with - and THEN crying sexism?

And second edit: If this company cares about female developers so much, how
come all of the (decidedly very unglamorous) photos on their homepage are of
men? Pretty much solidifies for me that they're using sexy pics to draw people
in, and then showing the "real developers" once you get to the
homepage...Yuck! And below, someone pointed out the first photo is an actress.

------
aneth4
This is an excellent example of angry, prudish anti-sexism being sexist.

Americans need to get over themselves and recognize that sexuality and
attraction are part of what makes life wonderful. Persistent sexual harassment
and coercion are not acceptable. Appreciation and recognition of beauty are
life affirming.

That said, I think the ads are in poor taste, not because they are women, but
because they are quite obviously intended to be sexy. If it were a man in a
tuxedo winking in the camera I'd feel the same way.

I don't think they should be banned. Toptal should eventually figure out they
are getting horny men clicking on their ads instead of funded companies.

I think LinkedIn recognizing that the presence of women were the problem is
abhorrent and they will be issuing apologies shortly.

~~~
itsdrewmiller
I think I speak for all Americans when I say "no, YOU get over yourself." I
suppose you believe gravity too?

[http://xkcd.com/202/](http://xkcd.com/202/)

~~~
aneth4
I have no idea what you are trying to say for all Americans, but as an
American, I'm pretty sure you're not speaking for me.

------
binarymax
To those that think these look spammy - this is exactly the fucking problem.
They are not spammy. It's just that spammy ads have been objectifying women on
the Internet since, oh, forever...and now it's an improper association. I hope
this gets sorted out real soon.

~~~
noddingham
>ads have been objectifying women

in all kinds of media, before the Internet, since forever.

------
gus_massa
I found the first image! [http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/suits-
usa-network...](http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/suits-usa-network-
amanda-schull-368138) (You can't hide form Google Images.)

She is Amanda Schull:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Schull](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Schull)

 _> Amanda Schull (born August 26, 1978) is an American actress and former
professional ballet dancer. [... and studied journalism ...]_

~~~
seanalltogether
Great find, so this pretty much discredits their entire argument no?
Ironically it makes them the sexists ones when they feel they need to use
models rather then actual real life developers to sell their services.

~~~
cupcake-unicorn
Exactly, it's pretty pathetic they're turning the sexism argument around to
benefit themselves when they were the ones guilty of it in the first
place...Hope more information comes out and this company is called on it.

------
dsjoerg
It would be interesting to make the male equivalent of this ad. Would we find
it equally offensive to have an attractive man in cocktail attire in an
engineering ad?

My guess is it would be seen as weird but not a bannable offense.

------
Jun8
This is crazy! Comparing Florenica Antara's photo from her TopTal page
([http://www.toptal.com/resume/florencia-
antara](http://www.toptal.com/resume/florencia-antara)) to the one they posted
you can see that they did use the more glamorous image (or she provided that
one to be used). _So what!_ Using glammed up photos is standard professional
practice. The photo they used is not sexy or exploitative any way.

One argument against it (as pallandt mentions) is that such people are
outliers, i.e. it's probabilistically unlikely to have a female developer
dressed in that outfit. Apart from the fact that this hypothesis is
scientifically untested (there may be some truth to it), how does it make it
any different than, say, the other practice of using "she" to refer to a
common coder (the chance of a randomly picked programmer to be female is much
smaller than male). No one I know complains about that!

------
joezydeco
There's _no possible way_ this is the same LinkedIn that puts up thumbnails of
female users and then tries to tease me into a Premium account with the good
'ol "wondering who's been looking at your profile?" sales trick?

It can't be.

------
drpgq
This is a little odd, but reminds of a project at work. I work at a face
recognition company and we had a worked a bit on an attractiveness estimator.
I argued that one of the uses would be for times when you actually wanted
somebody plain rather than attractive (assuming you were filtering stock
images for an advertisement). I guess maybe this is one of them.

~~~
xradionut
So a possible theory is that the images are being rejected because they are
attractive?

~~~
wavefunction
The lady, while attractive, does look like she's headed to a cocktail party
rather than work. Though it's not really my place to tell women not to dress
up or "appear attractive."

Contrast it with her actual profile picture on the site, both are flattering
but completely different in what they communicate.

------
hnta1
The toptotal link provided by the article doesn't really seem to help their
case. Going down the bullet list provided:

Created WordPress themes

Developed HTML5 sites

Designed UI/UX for websites based on wireframes

Vectorized logos

Technologies: HTML5, CSS3, WordPress, jQuery

Directly managed my own clients

Supported clients throughout the entire site development process, including
coming up with an idea, designing site architecture, wireframing, choosing a
platform and development languages, and improving marketing techniques .
Created HTML and CSS layouts, gave life to them with jQuery, and empowered
them with a CMS.

Created designs in Photoshop.

Spliced designs into HTML/CSS templates.

Implemented Drupal, Joomla!, and WordPress templates. Customized and
configured CMS's, including the positioning and styling of modules and
components.

Technologies: HTML5, CSS3, jQuery, Joomla!, WordPress, Drupal

I'm sorry, but to me, it seems like she hasn't done any software engineering,
and has, at best, implemented hodgepodge jQuery (written by other people). I
think it's dishonest to refer to her as an engineer, and 'front-end developer'
or just 'web developer' would be much more appropriate. Someone feel free to
correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going off the job titles at my places of
employment (both current and former), and what I see on job listings.

I'm sure that they have placed PLENTY of female software engineers who
actually write and maintain software on a daily basis. They just aren't as
attractive, which is why they don't use their picture.

~~~
kevingadd
Oh, I see, jQuery and PHP aren't real programming, she doesn't spend enough of
her day designing schemas or building iPhone apps or whatever your arbitrary
definition of real engineering is?

First of all, real engineers design bridges and machines, and when they screw
up, people can die. What does that have to do with whether she is fit to
appear in an ad? Why does being attractive disqualify her?

Your post is disgusting and made no more appropriate by your use of a
throwaway account.

------
liquidcool
I've never been to Argentina, where the developer in question is from.
However, I've lived in 5 different international cities this year, and in at
least 3 of them (Bangkok, Tokyo, and Kyiv) I have noticed that women
professionals put a lot of time and effort into their appearance, including
hair, makeup, clothing, jewelry, and accessories. Yes, this includes sci/tech
personnel.

As another noted, those working in the fashion/beauty industry in the US -
including those in IT - do the same. I'm not making any value judgement here,
but I think we should open our minds to other cultural perspectives since that
appears to be at work here.

------
Oculus
What I don't like about this is that Toptal agreed to the terms.

 _" Our COO went ahead and said we promise not to show any females in our
advertisements"_

That reminds me of the saying: "Sitting on two chairs with one ass." You can't
make a write up saying how insulting and how much you disagree with LinkedIn's
advertising policies only to later agree to their terms. That's like an
activist complaining about the way McDonalds treats their cows before ordering
a burger. If your employees are offended, stand up for them by telling
LinkedIn they can go f __* themselves.

I think you'd be able to present a better argument if you can show us the
images of the male versions. You claim _" our male versions are no
different"_, but I think in such a case you should be absolutely transparent.
That way, the whole story is laid out and we can see if the pictures are very
similar except for the sex, then yes there is sexism on LinkedIn's part or if
the images are obviously different and it's valid for LinkedIn to be
suspicious. That way we aren't forced to take your inherently biased word (no
offence meant).

I think this whole thing could have been avoided if Toptal had images that
were obviously related to engineering. Model portfolio type images (female or
male) of employees isn't the best image to use when you're not a modelling
agency, but a development agency.

~~~
itsdrewmiller
Check out their home page - male headshots there seem _ahem_ "different".

------
nmullaney
The images look reasonable to me, and I'm a female software engineer. Sure,
she's wearing an interesting top (it could be a dress, but could also just be
a nice blouse), but it's nothing beyond what I might wear to work. She's
wearing the tiniest bit of makeup, very discreet and professional. And her
facial expression is fairly neutral -- there's nothing especially sexy in it.
Banning the account seems uncalled for.

------
tome
Invoice in binary? $0110110001 per hour? That's $433. The whole thing is
weird.

------
gus_massa
The second photograph is of Florencia Antara, Argentina. From her profile :
[http://www.toptal.com/resume/florencia-
antara](http://www.toptal.com/resume/florencia-antara)

    
    
      > Education
      > 2008 - 2009
      > Web Programming degree in Master's
      > IT Master - Buenos Aires, Argentina
    
      > 2005 - 2007
      > Bachelor's degree in English Translation
      > Catholic University of Argentina - Buenos Aires, Argentina
    

An Engineering or Computer Science degree in Argentina last 5-6 years. She
isn't an Engineer, so it's misleading to for an article titled "In Defense of
Female Engineers ", that says

 _> Now, mind you, these (and others) are our real engineers that we have
signed contracts with._

(Note: She apparently specialized in web development/design and has many
projects. Probably she has enough work experience to do the work correctly.)

------
PhasmaFelis
I posted a comment here yesterday in which I was deeply conflicted and felt
like kind of an asshole even for that.

Yesterday, there were pictures of two women in that article.

Today, there's only one. Because someone in the comments pointed out that the
first woman was not in fact a Toptal-employed engineer, but a glamour shot of
a professional actress. Now, she's mysteriously vanished from the article and
Toptal is moderating their comments.

So, look, I'm just going to say it: LinkedIn was 100% right, Toptal is trying
to sex up their professional ads with completely irrelevant pictures of hot
women, and when they were called on it they threw a sanctimonious hissy-fit
and made themselves out to be innocent victims of sexism, the hypocritical
sexist fucks.

And it worked. LinkedIn has given them their ads back.

I deeply regret ever defending Toptal. I just hope that none of this causes
problems for the remaining woman in the article, who actually is an engineer
and bears no guilt for Toptal's bullshit on her behalf.

------
cupcake-unicorn
They did, in fact, end up deleting my comment, banning my Discus account from
posting, and in fact all comments pointing out that an actress was used
initially are now gone.

So, so sad. Their credibility on this issue is pretty much gone now. I wish
that anyone going to that page would get a fair view, but it looks like that's
not going to happen.

------
cupcake-unicorn
Update - looks like they've since removed the image that showed the actress,
to numerous comments on the blog asking them about it...I wonder if they'll
end up deleting my comment, or the comments about the actress photo and
removal as well? :/

------
corin_
Regardless of your opinion on the adverts and whether they should be allowed
or not, they're pushing it being surprised that they got banned.

> _After a couple hours we logged in and simply re-enabled all of the disabled
> ads, including the female ones. In a few more hours, they were all approved,
> and continued to run smoothly… until a bigger issue arose._

Either take the hit or try and win the argument, if you just ignore the
decision like they did then what could they have expected would happen?

------
kowdermeister
What I can't get my head around is who the hell complains about a female image
beside an ad online? Someone needs to get a life.

------
basia
LOL. Now they removed all the comments mentioning Amanda Schull. How classy.

~~~
cupcake-unicorn
Just noticed this myself - and I'm banned from posting there again. Really
helps their case, huh?

------
seanalltogether
Is there a reason this story was removed from the front page?

------
ianterrell
LinkedIn probably banned them in order to prevent sexism.

------
nukerhazz
I don't get why there is a photo at all.

------
mrgn
Toptal is moderating and deleting any comments that aren't in support of their
twisted publicity stunt, but here's my open letter to their CEO.

Taso,

Your vociferous moral crusade against LinkedIn has highlighted a few equally
disturbing issues with Toptal. Trusting everything you've written here, I'm
hoping you can explain why Toptal operates antithetically to your claims of
defending female engineers and "regular professional women."

First, your site raises question -- what women?

\- Toptal's homepage features 10 images of its tech professionals. Not just
engineers, but specific titles like Django Developer and Security Specialist.
0 are women.

\- Toptal's team page features 9 employes and investors. 0 are women.

\- Toptal's blog features photos of its 10 latest post authors. 0 are women.

\- Toptal's 2-minute homepage video features "clients like Mark and developers
like Andrew," and cartoons of characters dressed in everything from business
to scuba suits. I counted over two dozen of them, but let's say 21. 0 are
women.

Out of 50 -- FIFTY -- featured Toptal employees, investors, engineers,
developers, specialists, clients, bloggers and candidates... 0 are women.

Professional women are just as offended when tech companies sex-up their
images to promote their products as they are when their images are excluded
all together. Between Toptal's ads and website, women are either 1). as
attractive as professional models, or 2). don't exist at all.

Second, why should we believe you?

Searching toptal.com for any support for female technologists, or even a
mention of women, woman, female, girl, diversity, etc. reveals 0 results prior
to this post. In fact, Toptal's only discussion of women is in a blog post you
wrote about how Toptal built "The Ultimate Remote Culture" by organizing a
four week long company trip to Thailand. Not only are there no women, but you
publicly label your employees' female partners "The Problems" and shamed one
employee for returning to his family after two weeks away. I'll let your views
speak for themselves below:

"The Problems The second problem almost brought the trip to a halt. Actually,
this particular problem can often bring the whole world to a halt. What could
it be? Any guesses?

Girlfriends. Or wives, in some cases. That’s right. Most of the girlfriends
(especially the Russian ones) were not okay with their significant other going
away for more than two weeks, much less four. One of our engineers (whose name
will go unspoken) was such a victim, and could only stay for the first half of
the trip. Pretty much every single attendee asked if they could bring their
girlfriend/wife for at least a week. But, alas, this was a company event, and
the answer was no. Everyone acquiesced and, in the end, the biggest hurdle was
surmounted." [http://www.toptal.com/remote/the-ultimate-remote-
culture](http://www.toptal.com/remote/the-ultimate-remote-culture)

If this is how Toptal feels about women, it seems the only thing we need
defense from, is you.

~~~
xaotica
Thank you for researching / posting / emailing that :)

