
Elon Musk: Vegetarians only on Mars colony - cryptoz
http://sustainablebusinessoregon.com/national/2013/01/elon-musk-vegetarians-only-on-mars.html
======
Lambdanaut
This is pretty much a given. Livestock takes exponentially more energy to
raise than it takes to harvest a comparable amount of plant produce. Goats eat
a lot, and they chew on everything.

Mushrooms are a good choice as a staple food for a Martian colony because they
can grow entirely on agricultural byproducts, with no need for any of the
sure-to-be precious solar energy. You can really just put them in a dark
closet with some corn husks and let them do their thing.

~~~
Irregardless
Energy isn't the only consideration, you also have to think about nutrients.
Animal proteins have all the amino acids we need, but the same can't be said
of any plant. Essential nutrients like Iron, Calcium and Zinc are also
difficult to come by for vegetarians. Vitamin B12 can't even be found
naturally in non-meat foods, and it's necessary for our bodies to create red
blood cells.

Getting the energey _and_ nutrients _and_ having a variety of foods to choose
from (so you're not eating the same thing every meal of every day) is not an
easy task for vegetarians. Hopefully we'll have supplements that can
compensate for that in 15 years, but it's not exactly something you can rely
on when planning something of this scale.

~~~
raverbashing
You can combine different vegetable sources to obtain all aminoacids needed
(or maybe have a transgenic methionine producing soy plant

Iron, Calcium and Zinc are easy to obtain. Vitamin B12 is harder, people would
need supplements.

~~~
thejteam
When the supplements run out would they need to get a new shipment from earth?

~~~
RyanMcGreal
I can't imagine it would be that difficult (relatively speaking) for the
colony to synthesize B12 from bacteria or fermentation.

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podperson
This will make a great basis for an SF story -- most likely a comedy. The
kinds of people who can front $500k for an exercise like this will generally
be quite rich. If it's a one-way trip (or even if they're seriously
contemplating immigration) rich people will want to liquidate assets and turn
them into some kind of competitive advantage on Mars, but there's this really
expensive cargo pipe (presumably with a waiting list), so I can see the 50
year old single software engineer with Aspberger's sitting on $750k in
investments buying a ticket (and selling $500k of stocks to do so) and then
discovering that some maverick billionaire wants to buy his ticket for $5M so
he can bring over a suitcase of paté de foie gras and single malt Scotch, an
antique stock ticker, and a catamite.

Here's a funnier idea -- offer shipment to Mars as an alternative to the
appeals process for death penalty cases. It would save us money, and make for
an awesome Nicholas Cage vehicle. This is how you establish a colony, dammit!

~~~
gadders
> Here's a funnier idea -- offer shipment to Mars as an alternative to the
> appeals process for death penalty cases. It would save us money, and make
> for an awesome Nicholas Cage vehicle. This is how you establish a colony,
> dammit!

Well, it worked for Australia.

~~~
podperson
Exactly!

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Dove
"... plans to send just a small group of people who would build a transparent
dome that could be pressurized so that they could _farm on Martian soil_ . .
."

 _What?_ Can you _do_ that?

~~~
tylee78
I highly recommend Robert Zubrin's "The Case for Mars" - you'll be surprised
what else is possible on Mars with current technology:

[http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Mars-Settle-
Planet/dp/1451608...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Mars-Settle-
Planet/dp/145160811X)

~~~
stcredzero
Also, TA Heppenheimer's _Colonies in Space_ has a dandy compilation chapter on
research on agriculture in enclosed environments. ("Up on the farm")

[http://www.nss.org/settlement/ColoniesInSpace/colonies_chap0...](http://www.nss.org/settlement/ColoniesInSpace/colonies_chap09.html)

Most of what's talked about in that chapter will also be possible on Mars.

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laurentoget
I found a more interesting tidbits:

Quoted: A ticket to the colony would cost $500,000—with a goal of raising $40
billion—and visitors would be sent into space on a rocket powered by liquid
oxygen and methane.

    
    
       "The ticket price needs to be low enough that most people in advanced countries, in their mid-forties or something like that, could put together enough money to make the trip," 
    

Given that median wealth per family when head of household is 45-54 is ~160k
this is a peculiar definition of the word 'most'.

~~~
nicholassmith
It depends, if you're going one way and staying there you're basically selling
up and going. If you're fortunate you'll probably cover it mostly from
savings, plus pension pots, house sale, possessions sale and so on. Like I
said, if you're fortunate. Possibly if you don't want your children to have an
inheritance or don't have any.

~~~
stcredzero
Such children will likely become the elite of a new world. (Which is why one
should build a radiation shielded underground house there.)

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5037804>

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seanalltogether
Is it possible to create farms without bugs? And if there's bugs do we need
rodents to keep them in check? And with rodents running around do we need prey
animals to thin the numbers, and would those prey animals be delicious to eat?

~~~
autarch
Is this a serious question? The answer is hydroponics.

~~~
thejteam
Bugs would be for pollination, not plant nutrition. Some plants are self-
pollinating, others not.

Labor-intensive manual pollination is certainly possible, though.

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Irregardless
I doubt Musk would use his space colony as a means of enforcing his personal
moral code, but I also suspect the diversity of plants required for a healthy
vegetarian diet may be just as difficult to maintain on mars as livestock, so
it would be very interesting to hear the full story.

In any case, there's no explanation of his motivation, and the statement is
false according to this article that links to a (now deleted) tweet from Musk:
[http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/01/10/good-news-elon-
musk...](http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/01/10/good-news-elon-musk-will-
let-you-eat-meat-on-mars/)

~~~
calinet6
I'm certain it's not an ideological goal, though perhaps it's being spun as
one. Livestock simply might not be the most efficient way to produce food at
least initially on a Mars colony.

Given an opportunity to live on Mars, I can't imagine any interested person
who would have to think twice about becoming a vegetarian to do so, even if
only out of necessity.

I'm no vegetarian, but it's pretty clear that it might be more efficient than
raising livestock, or at least has the potential to be.

~~~
dkhenry
But there is more then just using them for food. Pigs for eaxmple can be used
as a sort of biological recycling factory. In addition they produce _usable_
waste from _unusable_ waste. So your actually incurring a cost in not bringing
them along that you will need some technology to replace. Then at the end you
need to find a way to maintain or repair your technology while you could just
mate the pigs and eat their parents. Additionally Bacon.

~~~
stcredzero
_> Pigs for eaxmple can be used as a sort of biological recycling factory. In
addition they produce _usable_ waste from _unusable_ waste._

Given some bacteria, fungi, and earthworms, there is little that composting
couldn't also recycle.

Farms are basically solar collectors. Unless you have lots of excess capacity,
it only makes sense to support livestock on kitchen waste. Studies were done
on this in the 70's. It turns out that chickens laying eggs are more efficient
than pigs for this purpose.

~~~
dkhenry
This is true, but its a matter of

1\. Speed 2\. By products

Chickens might be better then pigs, but the point is those little biological
machines are really good at what they do and they are are easier to take care
of/maintain then some machine to serve the same purpose.

~~~
stcredzero
Speed is not so much an issue if you're trying to stay long term. If you can
find it, look up T. A. Heppenheimer's _Colonies in Space_. The "Up on the
Farm" chapter was fun to read, and it has a pretty extensive set of
references.

Farmed Tilapia might also be an option, though I'm not clear on how flexible
their diet is.

~~~
bunderbunder
I'd be more concerned about how flexible their habitat is. Mars doesn't
exactly have a whole lot of water.

~~~
stcredzero
Actually, in the context of the solar system, Mars is pretty water rich.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_on_Mars#Polar_ice_caps>

By Earth standards, it's drier than the Gobi desert, but for the purposes of
colonization, there's plenty there to work with. The polar ice caps alone
could cover the whole planet in an average depth of 16 meters of water. Also,
there's the asteroids for when the population grows to a considerable size.

~~~
bunderbunder
Absolutely. But in the more temperate regions there's not quite so much water,
and shipping it in from the ice caps would be expensive.

For the first colonists, I'm guessing they'd want to make do with as little
water as they could get away with - meaning there wouldn't be any raising of
fish unless they couldn't get away with not raising fish.

~~~
stcredzero
_> in the more temperate regions there's not quite so much water, and shipping
it in from the ice caps would be expensive._

I'd see if I could use the atmosphere as a shipment mechanism.

 _> For the first colonists, I'm guessing they'd want to make do with as
little water as they could get away with - meaning there wouldn't be any
raising of fish unless they couldn't get away with not raising fish._

Farmed Tilapia ponds could serve as a reservoir of water/hydrogen. For a
population in the 10's of thousands, it would seem to be a reasonable
addition. For the first hundred, not so much.

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adaml_623
He twittered: 'Recent articles in the press have said that I think Mars is for
veggies only. Not so! Am in favor of freedom of diet.' But now he seems to
have deleted that tweet: strange.
(<https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/289281074188668928>).

~~~
loceng
People are going to misinterpret that to shit in order to cater to their own
beliefs.

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ed209
I wonder if that also excludes in vitro meat?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat>

~~~
prawks
I was wondering this as well. Though I've also wondered about the nutritional
contents of test-tube meat.

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securingsincity
I imagine this is to reduce the complexity of the mission. It would be hard
enough to support a colony of humans along with a colony of chickens,
roosters, goats, pigs and cows would complicate the situation. Farming animals
does have some sustainability concerns and from an ideological standpoint he
may want to be as close to methane and carbon neutral as possible.

~~~
dagw
There is a significant difference between "being vegetarian" and accepting
that you'll have to live on a vegetarian diet due to practical logistical
reasons. If I was going, I'd have no problem accepting that there obviously
won't be any raising of livestock on Mars, but my last meal on earth would
still be a steak.

~~~
securingsincity
Couldn't agree more. It's Mars I'll take the bad with the unbelievably cool.

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newbie12
And the Mars Colony has its first political issue.

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mtgx
Probably more like vegans.

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nicholassmith
One view point: it's a waste of space and fuel to launch livestock with humans
to a colony in the early days. Seeds and enough reserves to keep going would
take up much less space.

Another view point: livestock isn't just useful for food, cultures and
civilisations have been turning livestock into food, clothing, tools and other
resources for centuries. It could be useful.

I know some people find it abhorrent we exploit animals as resources (not me
personally), but Musk seems like a pragmatist. If it makes sense to send a
bunch of meat loving carnivores to Mars with a ship hold full of livestock
then that'll be the option.

On the upside, if they're using a liquid oxygen/methane rich mixture for the
fuel they'd have a natural source of methane by having livestock.

~~~
bunderbunder
I suspect it's not about transportation costs so much as ecology. The amount
of biomass available to animals at the top of the food pyramid is inversely
proportional to the height of the pyramid. Energy and nutrients would be an
extremely precious resource in a Mars colony that has to do all its farming
under domes. Far too precious to waste on cattle.

It's true that human cultures have historically relied on animals to convert
inedible biomass into edible biomass, or to produce other materials. But those
cultures didn't have all sorts of modern technologies such as hydroponics,
engineered microbes, or chemical labs. And unlike the area where human
cultures first developed, Mars isn't exactly known for its large quantities of
available pasture land just sitting around waiting for grazing.

~~~
stcredzero
_> I suspect it's not about transportation costs so much as ecology. The
amount of biomass available to animals at the top of the food pyramid is
inversely proportional to the height of the pyramid._

Right on. The thing to remember here, is that, as Feynmann says, _plants make
themselves out of air_! < <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1pIYI5JQLE> > (If
you doubt, go back to your basic biology education and remember the formula
for photosynthesis.)

So a Mars colony's farms are basically chemical solar collectors doing two
things: 1) providing chemical energy to the colonists (food) and 2) Converting
Martian CO2 and water into biomass. If you introduce too many warm blooded
animals into the system, a lot of your energy input gets wasted as livestock
body heat.

tldr - By going vegetarian at first, the Mars colony accumulates usable
biomass faster.

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stcredzero
tldr - By going vegetarian at first, the Mars colony accumulates usable
biomass faster.

(Also, the "Up on the Farm" chapter of this book is a good background read for
this discussion:
[http://www.nss.org/settlement/ColoniesInSpace/colonies_chap0...](http://www.nss.org/settlement/ColoniesInSpace/colonies_chap09.html)
)

The thing to remember here, is that, as Feynmann says, plants make themselves
out of air! < <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1pIYI5JQLE> > Go back to your
basic biology education and remember the formula for photosynthesis. <
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis> >

So a Mars colony's farms are basically chemical solar collectors doing two
things: 1) providing chemical energy to the colonists (food) and 2) Converting
Martian CO2 and water into biomass. If you introduce too many warm blooded
animals into the system, a lot of your energy input gets wasted as livestock
body heat. So by going vegetarian at first, the Mars colony accumulates usable
biomass faster. The faster you accumulate biomass, the faster you can make
more biomass.

This is also the principle behind the tactic of mostly making construction
vehicles at first in Starcraft, or concentrating early on customer acquisition
in a startup.

------
codex
One reason for a vegetarian diet on Mars is solar efficiency: the sun is only
44% as strong, which makes raising meat less practical. Meat takes a _lot_ of
energy,

Another reason is the higher ambient radiation levels on Mars, which plants
are more resilient to than animals. Animals would likely have a higher cancer
rate than here on Earth, and who wants to eat a cancerous steak? Not
appetizing.

------
dagw
I wonder what his reasoning for such a requirement is. Does he think that a
non-vegetarian won't be able to adapt to the meat-free diet a Mars colony will
probably require without several years of 'practice' or is it some bizarre
ideological stance? The whole thing sounds strange to me, but since I can't
find the original quote or transcript, maybe he said something different.

~~~
kristofferR
If you have a meat-free diet you are vegetarian, so he probably meant that
meat won't be availible on Mars for the settlers for quite some time and that
everyone who goes have to expect a vegetarian diet.

~~~
lmm
Requiring people to not eat meat (or at least eat very little meat) makes
sense. Requiring them to do so for a couple of years before takeoff to prepare
(and make sure they're happy with that diet) makes sense too. But recruiting
only people who are already vegetarians seems counterproductive.

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commentzorro
Show HN: My Martian City. I'm starting a business to bring people to Mars for
half the price of Mr. Musk's. Reserve your tickets now. We go in about 15
years. The savings come from not having to grow our own food and not having to
build a pressurized dome. Our city will be underground! It will be called
Morlock and the citizens will be ...

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dkhenry
Immediately I think this is silly. While There is an argument to be made for
health benefits or moral upidityness of being a Vegetarian, it is stupid to
rule out the benefits a fully working ecosystem gives you in terms of resource
availability and renewability. Animals are good for more then just eating !

~~~
Kim_Bruning
You need (rule-of-thumb) 10* as much energy (solar/light input) or 10* the
amount of land for a none-vegetarian diet. In an early off-world colony, that
might be prohibitively expensive.

~~~
dkhenry
This is not just about providing food. Thats my whole point. You may be able
to provide sustance with less ground/light, but what about keeping the soil
fertle ? How about dealing with plant waste ? What do you do with table scraps
? What do you do with human waste ?

You could say we will ship out machines and supplies to take care of all the
_other_ stuff that you need to live. It is true you can have other methods to
deal with some of the additional requirements of life, but animals are really
good at fulfilling some roles. Additionally they are tasty.

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bane
In other words, meat will become an ultra-luxury food stuff -- with people
paying some delta for illegal raised local meat vs. frozen meat flown in from
Earth.

Local cultural fads would probably determine if stringy local small mammal
meat or freezer burned brisket would go for more.

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DanBC
Be interesting to do some research on the food people eat and what happens.

The only thing I'd be gently worried about would be Omega 3 fatty acids -
maybe linseed, or maybe that's something they drag out of the gravity well.

~~~
jerf
If ever there was a call for some GMO, here it is. And fortunately this is the
sort of thing that's within our reach.

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sadlyNess
so we can start farming kyrt...and psycho-probbing spatio-analysts...[1]

if only Asimov was around to see these events start to unfold.

[1] Currents of Space - Isaac Asimov

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hudell
His own words:

"Recent Articles in the press have said that I think Mars is for veggies only.
Not so! Am in favor of freedom of diet"

------
brador
Why are we still eating cellular food? Is anyone working on alternative
nourishment?

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BESebastian
If there's no meat then what's the point of even going to Mars.

~~~
vidarh
Getting rich by smuggling bacon.

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jsmcgd
It's a pity that before we've even begun creating a new civilization, we've
started issuing dictates. I really hope that this policy is purely for
pragmatic reasons and not the personal pollitics/ideology of one person being
put upon others.

~~~
JshWright
This is simply a matter of practicality. It has nothing to do with idealogy,
it's simply a fact that anyone going to live on Mars (a least in the
beginning) will need to become a vegetarian if they aren't one already.

Eating vegetarian is dramatically more efficient, energy wise (I'm not trying
to be a vegetarian apologist here, I am quite omnivorous myself, it's just a
statement of fact), and any martian colony simply won't have the resources to
waste on meat.

Meat is a luxury.

