
TSA considers new system for flyers without ID - walterbell
https://papersplease.org/wp/2020/08/11/tsa-considers-new-system-for-flyers-without-id/
======
mLuby
> The main reason for the TSA to outsource the questioning of travelers and
> scoring of answers is to evade the rules applicable to collection and use of
> personal data by Federal agencies. … The nominal “fly/no-fly” decision will
> still be made by the TSA, not the contractor. But that “decision” will be a
> rubber-stamp approval or disapproval based solely on whether the app shows a
> “pass” or “fail” score, or whether the would-be traveler doesn’t have a
> suitable smartphone or is otherwise unable or unwilling to complete the app-
> based process.

You hear the drug trade is really lucrative but you're not allowed to sell
drugs, so you send your money to a contractor that sells drugs, they give you
more money back, and you technically haven't "sold drugs."

Somehow, thinking breaks down at the boundary between systems, because
inexplicably the constraints or guarantees of the consuming system do not
propagate to the providing system.

TSA could and should be (made) identity-agnostic, with its mandate to protect
vehicles and occupants. Immigration is what should care about the individual
that's being allowed into the country.

~~~
shard
You just had your servers hacked into and all your database are belong to
them. The black hats demand X number of BitCoins as ransom, but you cannot pay
because it violates certain laws. So you hire an intermediary who pays for
you, thereby avoiding the legal problem.

[https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/4/21353842/garmin-
ransomware...](https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/4/21353842/garmin-ransomware-
attack-wearables-wastedlocker-evil-corp)

~~~
p1necone
This also seems like it pretty unambiguously still breaks the law. Has it been
tested in court yet?

I wonder if it's kind of a "it's small fry, and these businesses are getting
their data back, we'll turn our backs to it unless it's actual violent
terrorists receiving ransom money" sort of thing.

~~~
mjevans
Haven't touched it at all, but I strongly suspect that the hired corporation
is treated like a blackbox.

Middleman: OK, hand us the encrypted data and 125% of whatever the ransomeware
is asking.

Middleman: Outcome A: Here's your data back. Outcome B: We were unable to get
your data back, here's your full refund.

~~~
gene91
Isn't that willful ignorance, and therefore on shaky ground legally.

~~~
bobthepanda
You do have to prove intent of willful ignorance beyond a reasonable doubt
though, which is easier said than done.

It takes legwork to establish intent, which is why justice is never carried
out very quickly.

------
A4ET8a8uTh0
"A traveler who shows up at a TSA checkpoint would, it appears, be told they
have to install the mobile app, pay a fee through the app (which presumably
would require a credit or debit card or bank account), complete the in-app
questioning, and show a “pass” result from the app to the TSA staff or
contractors in order to “complete screening” and proceed through the
checkpoint."

Install an app that does god only know on your cell. Hard pass. I keep
debating just downgrading to dumb phone, but something always stops me ( right
now it is playing with Pinephone ).

This, naturally, does not change the actual outcome ( can't fly without
complying with TSA demands ), but I thankfully do not fly a lot these days.

~~~
IgorPartola
Do you simply show your phone screen to them? Seems like a bit of a security
flaw, given that I can just mock up a “pass” screen and show it to the TSA
agent, no?

~~~
breck
[https://beta.sam.gov/api/prod/opps/v3/opportunities/resource...](https://beta.sam.gov/api/prod/opps/v3/opportunities/resources/files/902095c2eb274282b84047c261898e45/download?api_key=null&token=)

    
    
        The system shall be able to generate both a human-readable and machine-readable result.
         i. The objective is to display to a Transportation Security Officer (TSO) that a
         passenger has a “pass” or a “fail” status
         ii. A machine-readable form factor should include the capability to be read by TSA’s
        Credential Authentication Technology (CAT) machine, e.g., a PDF 417 barcode or a
        Checksum format
         1. Data in the machine readable zone would include Name, DOB, and Gender
         to facilitate real-time Secure Flight screening
    

So I guess the machine-readable output could include some verification that it
was not just a "PASS" JPG.

It actually is a decent enough RFI.

I've had to fly (accidentally) without an ID a few times and it is kind of
annoying. I'd be happy if I could have used something like this instead.

~~~
mint2
I literally don’t have enough space on my iPhone se and always forget my App
Store password because I so rarely use it. And I make decent money so I could
afford a new phone.

But people who can’t afford a new phone, I’ve met many, will be unable to fly
in the same circumstances that people with money can without a problem.

It’s a class system.

Not to mention older people who are sometimes technologically challenged.

If the app is purely optional and has no influence on the decision other than
efficiency, then it’s acceptable.

~~~
IgorPartola
Well, it does sound like it's only for when you don't have any kind of ID, so
yeah seems optional.

------
curiousgal
Right, the people who still don't allow you to board with an excess ounce of
water or makeup suddenly care about making air travel a pleasant experience.

~~~
082349872349872
It is somewhat depressing to watch _American Graffiti_ , or for that matter
soviet movies, and see people just going out to the boarding stairs and
getting on the plane like they would a bus.

~~~
wil421
In some places it still happens. Around 2004 I boarded a plane with stairs in
Cancun.

My wife’s Aunt and Uncle have been serial travelers for decades. One time her
uncle forget his briefcase in the 80s. She convinced the counter person to get
someone to take his briefcase to the taxing plane. The pilot opened the window
and a maintenance guy threw him the briefcase. When the pilot handed him his
briefcase he said I don’t know who you are or how you pulled this off but it’s
impressive it worked. The uncle had no idea he left it until that point.

------
gruez
So according to the request for information[1], it looks like the TSA wants a
system that can validate an identity exists (given name, date of birth,
address, phone number) and that the identity belongs to the person using the
app. The first part looks pretty trivial, given the enormous corpus of
databases out there (credit reports, public records, etc.), but what about the
second part? Presumably you'd need some sort of database linking identities to
photos, and validate that photo against the user's selfie or something. The
question is, where would that photo database come from? State DMVs? If your
photo is in the DMV database, wouldn't that also mean you have a drivers
license, and therefore could use that rather than the app? What's preventing
someone from impersonating someone else by scraping the internet for "similar"
faces to their own, finding the associated id, and claiming that they're that
person?

[1]
[https://beta.sam.gov/api/prod/opps/v3/opportunities/resource...](https://beta.sam.gov/api/prod/opps/v3/opportunities/resources/files/902095c2eb274282b84047c261898e45/download?api_key=null&token=)

~~~
banana_giraffe
> If your photo is in the DMV database, wouldn't that also mean you have a
> drivers license, and therefore could use that rather than the app

Perhaps today, but if the REAL ID rules ever actually kick in, just having a
driver's license won't necessarily be enough. It got pushed back from an Oct
start date to some unspecified future date.

There's been some press about this, but when these rules do go into effect, I
suspect there will be stories about people that have trouble taking their
flight.

~~~
davchana
I believe in California, that unspecified future date is Oct 01, 2021 (for
boarding planes).

[https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/driver-licenses-
identification...](https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/driver-licenses-
identification-cards/real-id/what-is-real-id/)

------
deathanatos
I'd add one more:

* The WiFi in the airport is hostile? No Fly.

I once tried to rely on a mobile boarding pass to get through security. The
process required Internet access, and I wasn't able to pull it up.

It wasn't until I was on the other side of security (via a paper pass) that I
realized the airport WiFi was falsifying DNS results, and that was preventing
me from pulling up the pass on the mobile device. But handling "DNS server is
reachable but being actively man-in-the-middled" wasn't a code path the
developer had thought of (I know _I_ wouldn't have…). I needed to open a
browser and agree to some inane ToS or watch an ad, or something, before I
could get unadulterated Internet access.

~~~
Xavdidtheshadow
I really like that I can add boarding passes to Apple Wallet and they're
available totally offline. There's not a lot Wallet is good for (adoption is
too low) but it's great at Boarding Passes.

~~~
remarkEon
I absolutely never do this. Maybe because I'm paranoid, and especially if I'm
flying internationally, I never, ever, feel comfortable handing my mobile
device to security or Immigration. I still get a paper one every time.

~~~
aaomidi
You can access boarding pass while your phone is locked.

~~~
remarkEon
Sure, but that doesn't solve my (perhaps somewhat irrational) issue with
physically handing my phone to people I don't really trust, especially when
out of my home country.

------
floatingatoll
Non-US folks who are wondering what Real ID is, and why this site seems to
hate it so much, the United States is best considered in the context of the
European Union but with US internal politics regarding data sharing between
the federation and its member states.

There are fifty member states with full privileges and around ten member
states with reduced privileges.

The federation issues government IDs in two ways.

First, the federation government issues federation IDs in the form of
passports. These are accepted as proof of identity only, and grant no
additional privileges beyond proof of residency within the federation.

Second, each member state issues their own photo IDs following their own
independent processes. These are neither proof of citizenship to the
federation’s border control, nor to other countries, and data sharing
agreements historically did not exist between the states and the federation.

The member states of the EU issue passports as the state ID card, and requires
each member state to accept those passports as approximately equal to their
own for most intents and purposes. The US federation also requires its member
states to accept both any member state IDs and also federation passports.

“RealID” is an effort by the federation to be able to determine from your
state ID card whether you are a federation member. It defines a minimum burden
of proof of citizenship that states must require and verify, and presumably
share with the federation, in order to issue an ID card with a federation
membership indicator. For political reasons, many member states and many
citizens do not believe it is appropriate for the federation to make this
demand of the member states. I believe this is in contrast to the EU, where
data sharing between authorities of member states regarding federation
passports is required by the foundation, but I’m not 100% certain.

I hope this helps. Please treat this as a teaching example and do not make
immigration, travel, taxation, or citizenship decisions based on it. I am not
your lawyer.

~~~
anonunivgrad
Just a minor nitpick: A US Passport is more than proof of residency. It’s
proof of citizenship. When you get a job in the US, your employer needs to
check your citizenship. A passport alone does the trick. Otherwise, you need
both an ID and some other proof of your right to work, like a birth
certificate (birthright citizenship), naturalization card, or a work permit of
some kind from the US government (green card and such).

~~~
floatingatoll
For teaching purposes, I didn't address social security numbers and other such
tangents, as it isn't strictly necessary to help non-US folks understand how
the US federation compares to the EU's for the purposes of RealID.

Social security numbers are a _second_ federation ID (but not a photo ID) that
anyone who pays you money is required to ask you for. You're only required to
present the 9-digit ID number, not the actual ID card, oddly enough. Temporary
worker visa holders are exempt for whatever reason.

Untangling the intricate web between proof of birth, proof of residency of
state, proof of residency of federation, and proof of taxability in federation
is beyond the scope of my time available here. Disclaimer, I am not your
lawyer, please seek professional guidance when making decisions.

------
mnm1
This will be a disaster as is usually the case with government outsourcing
duties to the less qualified private sector. Surely there must be a "law"
named after this by now.

Realid itself is a clusterfuck. I tried to get a driver's license with it.
Presented all the paperwork. Was told my signed lease was not acceptable proof
of residence and that it would be impossible. I'd have to get a regular
driver's license or come back at a later time, pay again and more this time
for a second license. Fuck that. What a clusterfuck of stupidity. I'll try
again when it renews, assuming the pandemic in the US is completely done. Or
not. It's just a fact of life that to fly from state to state, one needs to
carry a passport now. In a "free" country. How ridiculous.

~~~
A4ET8a8uTh0
What annoys me about realid is the time it takes to make it. It takes weeks (
as opposed to being able to get one the very same day at dmv ). So average
user is told tuff noodles, while average person who uses fake, working id has
criminals working 24/7 to ensure easy access (
[https://www.fox5ny.com/news/shipments-of-
nearly-20000-fake-d...](https://www.fox5ny.com/news/shipments-of-
nearly-20000-fake-drivers-licenses-seized-at-chicago-airport) ).

And when you point it out people say something along the lines "Well, that's
why you need realid!". It gets depressing fast.

~~~
atonse
God... "CBP said most of the fake IDs were for college-age students. Many had
the same photo but different names. But one alarming discovery was that the
barcode on the fake Michigan licenses actually worked, CBP said. "

Yes I've been telling everyone who'll here this. The PDF417 bar code at the
back is just plain text without any kind of digital signature. Anyone could
generate a new one. There are apps that do it for you. Since there's no
digital signature, there's no way of verifying that it is authentic. There's
nothing ALARMING about this. The bar code is an open standard and anyone can
generate a new one. It would be alarming if they faked the digital signature.

~~~
esrauch
I think the alarming thing is that it doesn't have a digital signature,
meaning that scanning the barcode isn't a useful check if an ID is fake.

~~~
atonse
Yup to us techies it seems obvious that you should have a digital signature.

But for whatever reason, this wasn't done.

~~~
ralph84
You can't have digital signatures without all of the attendant PKI baggage.
And if you're going to implement all of the PKI baggage, might as well go all
the way and start issuing people smart cards.

~~~
judge2020
It doesn't need to be full PKI. Just link to some internal website ran by the
State that spits out DB info about how "Joe's license, numberd 01010101 is
valid". Georgia already does this for temporary license plates (Pardon the TLS
1.1):
[https://www.gada.com/index.php?module=FileShare&func=downloa...](https://www.gada.com/index.php?module=FileShare&func=download&file_id=1116)

~~~
esrauch
I think the issue is you'll only achieve restricting things to cloned licenses
instead of arbitrary fakes (which might still be an improvement).

------
dmitrygr
The reason you can fly without any ID (even today - try it) is that feds
cannot stop citizens from freely moving in the country (see multiple filings
from TSA in various cases, incl, for example, Gilmore v. Gonzales). They do
not like acknowledging this but you can do it. The procedure is secret and
they refuse to explain it (even to the court), but you can do it. i've done it
just to see how it would go a few times. It works. You do need to press them
on it a bit.

This fee approach will not work for the same reason: it is an impediment to
free movement (fee).

You can read more here: [https://papersplease.org/wp/2015/04/09/why-did-the-
tsa-preve...](https://papersplease.org/wp/2015/04/09/why-did-the-tsa-prevent-
these-people-from-flying/)

~~~
rsync
"The procedure is secret and they refuse to explain it (even to the court),
but you can do it."

I think you're overblowing this ... as it is neither secret nor unexplainable.
Any ticket agent at any airport knows exactly how to process a frantic ( mom +
2 kids ) who forgot her ID at home and the flight leaves in 75 mins.

The ticket agents, the security personnel and the gate personnel all know how
to deal with (forgot ID at home).

~~~
mynameisvlad
So... Please explain it then. Or link to a document from the TSA that explains
it.

Just because it's known by a lot of people doesn't mean it's not a secret. The
ticket agent might not even know the full system, just what they have to do to
get that frantic mom and 2 kids off their back.

~~~
rsync
"So... Please explain it then."

Enter airport. Walk to departures agent of your airline and explain that you
forgot your ID and there is no way that someone can bring it to you, or that
you can retrieve it, in time to make the flight.

You get extra screening and a specially marked boarding pass and you get on
the plane with everyone else.

My wife did this as recently as 12 months ago. SFO->MSP.

YMMV. IANAL.

~~~
mynameisvlad
You know very well that that's not what "explain it" means. If you think the
process isn't a secret, then find a document detailing the entire process,
with specifics, end to end.

What happens in the extra screening? Is it the same throughout the country?
What might vary in the process (YMMV, after all), etc.

You have a purely anecdotal account of what can happen at an airport that
isn't even staffed by the TSA ([https://www.flysfo.com/about-sfo/safety-
security](https://www.flysfo.com/about-sfo/safety-security)). What everyone
else is looking for is a specific, detailed, transparent description of the
entire process.

------
tfolbrecht
If anyone's curious, the current system is laughable. I flew after getting my
wallet stolen in a smash and grab.

Questions: Name DOB Family members names Home address Nearby landmarks

All public info.

If there's nothing going on behind the scenes it's just more security theater.

~~~
Mary-Jane
I got home from a business trip a couple years ago, unpacked my bags, and
found the switchblade I'd lost a few months prior. I went through security
twice with those bags...

~~~
pgo
Similar thing happened to me, I had 1/8 ounce weed in my hand bag I
unknowingly packed, flew in from Los Angeles -> China -> India. I went through
rigorous security checks with police dogs and fully body scanners at both LA
and China. I panicked when I opened my bag when I reached home.

~~~
blaser-waffle
Holy shit dog, that could have fucked you hard; your panic is justified.

------
Nasrudith
Better idea of course - abolish the TSA. I mean harshly enough the pandemic
proves they don't really care about tens of thousands of lives so their
justification for existence is even more moot - on top of their
ineffectualness.

~~~
umvi
9/11 will never happen again because the idea of a plane hijacking for ransom
no longer exists in passengers' minds. If someone hijacks a plane now, the
passengers assume the hijackers have suicidal intent and will curb stomp the
hijackers to death or die trying. So in that regard I think TSA confiscating
scissors and pen knives is just silly. A simple metal detector is sufficient
for finding large weapons like guns.

On the other hand, terrorists' only option now is to just destroy the plane
and kill all the passengers onboard. Cabin doors are locked, so this involves
blowing up a bomb concealed somewhere (checked luggage, shoes, liquid
explosives, etc). How do you propose we detect whether someone is trying to
smuggle a bomb on a plane without something like the TSA? Just keep an eye out
for nervous passengers and report them?

In other words, if we abolish the TSA tomorrow and replace it with metal
detectors, what's to stop someone from bringing a few gallons of chemical
explosives in their backpack, mixing them in the lavatory, and blowing up the
plane? TSA has always caught when I accidentally left a full water bottle in
my backpack.

~~~
fuzxi
>In other words, if we abolish the TSA tomorrow and replace it with metal
detectors, what's to stop someone from bringing a few gallons of chemical
explosives in their backpack, mixing them in the lavatory, and blowing up the
plane?

The reality is that it's already feasible to sneak conventional weapons and
explosives past TSA. Here are two fairly recent investigations on the TSA's
efficacy, one from 2015 [1] and one from 2017 [2]. Both of these undercover
investigations were performed by the Department of Homeland Security. The
first one found that in 67 out of 70 tests, agents were able to get weapons
past TSA, including a fake IED strapped to an agent's back. The second found
that this failure rate dropped from 2015's staggering 95% to "in the ballpark"
of 80%.

Yes, the TSA always stops you when you bring a full water bottle. Eight times
out of ten, they won't confiscate your gun or bomb. Even if they did, what's
to stop someone from mixing chemicals to cause an explosion on a bus? Or in a
crowded hotel? Or an elementary school? Or a mall? Or...

In my opinion, there simply aren't that many people with both the desire and
means to do these things.

[1] [https://abcnews.go.com/US/exclusive-undercover-dhs-tests-
fin...](https://abcnews.go.com/US/exclusive-undercover-dhs-tests-find-
widespread-security-failures/story?id=31434881)

[2] [https://abcnews.go.com/US/tsa-fails-tests-latest-
undercover-...](https://abcnews.go.com/US/tsa-fails-tests-latest-undercover-
operation-us-airports/story?id=51022188)

~~~
scaryclam
And let's not ignore the fact that someone could just kidnap the pilots
families and blackmail them into "hijacking" their own plane. An organisation
with the money and motivation doesn't care about the TSA and their security
theater.

------
rolph
the thought TSAcaptcha for air travel came to mind about halfway through
reading.

~~~
gruez
[ ] I'm not a terrorist

~~~
komali2
Bush era South Carolina passed a law, and thus created a related form, that
required terrorists to register themselves as such at the DMV.

I used to have it on file somewhere, now it's buried in an old hard drive.
Would love to have one again. Would love even more to do a FOIA request to see
if they ever actually got any filled out.

~~~
alasdair_
It reminds me of the paper forms I'd have to fill out when entering the US on
a UK passport. The forms would ask questions like whether or not I was a nazi
that participated in the holocaust.

~~~
outworlder
They still ask that. They will ask those questions whenever you need a visa
issued or renewed. I wondered if anyone has ever said yes to the genocide
questions.

~~~
akiselev
Their purpose isn't to get accurate information, they're there to give
immigration authorities an easy legal way to kick someone out for something
that would otherwise require a higher standard of evidence. I.e. anyone
answering yes to that question is obviously a red flag but a former SS officer
who writes in no can be kicked out by proving he knowingly lied on the forms
due to his past as an SS agent without proving he was involved in or knew
about the atrocities, which could be a lot harder.

------
komali2
They claim that requiring a REAL-ID to fly is illegal, and link to this PDF
([https://papersplease.org/wp/wp-
content/uploads/2020/05/IDP-f...](https://papersplease.org/wp/wp-
content/uploads/2020/05/IDP-form-415-19MAY2020.pdf)) which appears to be a
sort of letter from The Identity Project attempting to explain that what the
TSA is doing is illegal. So, I don't know if I buy that it matters. If I show
up on Oct 2, 2021, without a REAL-ID (i.e., a pre-realID california driver's
license, which is what I have because DMV lines are fucked and appointments
are fucked too), I think I won't be able to fly, no matter how much I wave a
PDF in the face of TSA officials.

~~~
jbritton
Get a passport. In CA it’s the only means of getting a second ID, aka a backup
ID. I once almost didn’t get a job, because DMV was late sending me my
driver’s license renewal, and for one week I had no valid ID, and that was the
week I needed to start work.

~~~
pixelface
CA DMV will issue you an 'identification card' in addition to a drivers'
license which very handy to have as a backup.

------
option
I bet that those responsible for 9/11 couldn’t have hoped in their wettest
dreams that Americans will be subject to random strip searches and patdowns in
their own country for decades to come. Terrorists and US gov response made
that happen.

Time for the citizens to ask - whether that response was right.

“Those willing to give up a little bit of freedom to gain a little bit of
security deserve neither and will soon lose both”

~~~
atonse
To me this isn't a question of liberty or not. I find that silly. You don't
have any constitutional "right" to fly. You probably have a constitutional
right to free movement within the US (whether it's walking, driving, etc).

The bigger issue with these pat downs, scans, fluid limits, etc is whether
they're effective.

Bruce Schneier has written at great length (and very smartly) about this
stuff. And I agree with him that the single most effective deterrent to the
next 9/11 is secure cockpit doors, and a close second is passengers not
willing to "allow" a plane to get hijacked anymore (whereas hijackings in the
past had a sliver of hope that you'd get out safely, after 9/11 I think
passengers know there might be certain death, so why not fight?)

~~~
R0b0t1
You do have the right to travel. The constitution does not specify a mode.
Ergo, all modes are protected equally, and no-fly lists are unconstitutional.
It's not like you get a background check to buy a printing press.

The ACLU mounted an attack on the no-fly list that was credible enough
government changed procedure.

This would imply drivers licenses and car registration are also
unconstitutional. You can tax them and have traffic laws, but not do those
things.

~~~
InitialLastName
> You do have the right to travel. The constitution does not specify a mode

The constitution does not specify the first bit either; it's all been inferred
by court rulings [0]

[0][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_Unit...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law)

~~~
R0b0t1
I'm aware, my view is the court's current views are incomplete. Courts can be
wrong.

What draws the most interest is the right to enter states freely. Combine that
with the need to travel and participate in commerce and you quickly arrive at
the conclusion the right to travel in general must also be protected, and
indeed we can see the hardships brought upon people when they are unable to
drive, etc.

~~~
ac29
Good luck arguing your opinion though - go watch a few videos of "sovereign
citizens" trying to argue they don't need a driver's license to "travel" when
pulled over driving.

------
etxm
I was curious what the process was ~4 years ago for this so I “misplaced” my
ID flying from SF to LA and the first agent at the beginning of the line
looked me up on LinkedIn then they did a bag inspection and they let me
through (I had a pass on my phone).

It was very ... lenient.

------
hatenberg
Its funny that this is worse than China's social credit score, there at least
you know you are on the shitlist.

Much these days boils down to

"Like China, but worse technical execution and privatized to some contractor
(who is probably a family member)"

------
gumby
This is an encouraging step in the right direction, though I wonder what data
this external service might capture.

I have never heard an explanation of why the name of the ticket holder should
matter. The stupid thermometer tests always make me think of this so-called
requirement.

------
refurb
Is this website really arguing that you should be able to fly without
identifying yourself?

I'm a big proponent of privacy and not identifying yourself to government
official unless needed, but it seems like proving identify to fly is a pretty
reasonable rule.

~~~
golemotron
The 9/11 hijackers had ID. Turns out terrorists don't care if you know who
they are.

~~~
refurb
Plenty of people pass the background check and commit crimes. Should we
eliminate gun background checks entirely?

~~~
mixmastamyk
Freedom of movement and use of weapons are considered differently, thankfully.

~~~
refurb
Both are constitutionally protected, so why are they considered different?

The courts have stated that reasonably limitations on freedoms are allowed.

~~~
mixmastamyk
They are for obvious reasons, and limits are not applied to movement in
public.

~~~
kube-system
I don't necessarily agree with the above analogy, but there are definitely
limits applied to movement in public.

Crowd control, occupancy laws, trespassing laws, curfews, checkpoints, etc.

