
Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic - ilamont
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-30/blissful-ignorance-submariners-likely-unaware-of-pandemic
======
soneil
I’m not sure there’s anything specific about France here. The UK’s bombers
operate similarly, and I can’t see any reason anyone else’s wouldn’t.

My father worked aboard one, and we got to send a weekly “familygram” message
- a short, telegram-style message where you put one word in each box until
you’re out of boxes, and then mail it off to the Navy. You weren’t allowed to
even hint at any bad news - not even that the dog had died - and we were told
that any bad news would be removed from the message. And receiving a too-
short, redacted, or no familygram at all would probably be more worrying than
not being told at all.

The reality of it is that if you’re half-way through a 10-week patrol, there’s
nothing about this pandemic that’s remotely useful to you. Nothing you can do,
nothing you can say, no way you can benefit from this information. It’s 100%
useless mental overhead.

And to be honest, I think I’m a little jealous right now. I don’t think 100%
news saturation is good for us either.

~~~
lbeltrame
> I don’t think 100% news saturation is good for us either.

I agree. In Italy basically all the news are just about the coronavirus and
nothing else, plus a lot of sensationalism ("we're all gonna die" style), and
the Big Brother style press conference every day with the reports of daily
numbers of cases, deaths, and recoveries.

It's so aggravating and anxiety inducing that I only check a news roundup in
the morning and I shut myself away from any other news sources. Not ideal, but
at this point it's the only way to make sure I'm not consumed by the constant
stream of bad news.

~~~
dilippkumar
> It's so aggravating and anxiety inducing that I only check a news roundup in
> the morning and I shut myself away from any other news sources. Not ideal,
> but at this point it's the only way to make sure I'm not consumed by the
> constant stream of bad news.

I have attempted to stay away from news media since around 2018. Around last
November, I decided to make a complete cut and stop consuming anything "news
related" from secondary sources like podcasts, reddit comment threads etc. I
expected that I'd live in ignorance, but I'd gain some peace of mind.

This change has had a far greater impact on me than what I had originally
assumed. First surprise is that I still find out everything that's going on in
the world that's relevant to me or people I care about. Second, I feel like I
turned sober for the first time in years - I've had soo much creativity and
mental energy that bloomed out of nowhere within a few days after I stopped
punishing my thought process with news from the world.

There are a few things I have discovered in the past few months. First, if you
put in effort to find very high quality information about an event that you
hear about, you will usually find something from primary sources that are
orders of magnitude better than anything that's published on popular media.
Second, there really aren't that many new things happening in the world all
the time - 30 mins of effort a week is usually sufficient to be on top of
everything going on.

There are a ton of people who will convince you that it's your moral duty to
follow news as closely as possible. It's totally not worth it.

~~~
dragonsky67
This has been my mode of operation for the last couple of years, untill the
virus started impacting Australia. Now restrictions etc are changing so
quickly that you pretty much need to keep up to date. Got to say it's not
doing my mental health any favours.

One thing that has suprised me is the lack of any non-virus news that is
around. The virus and it's fallout can't be the only thing happening in the
world at the moment! The only non-virus related news I've seen over the last
couple of weeks is a couple of local court cases and North Korea firing
something into the ocean. Oh and we had a local government election here in
Queensland which got about an inch of coverage.

This tells me that most of the normal news we get fed is pretty much non-
essential filler.

------
pjc50
Reminder that the nuclear ballistic missile submarines were built for - and
continue to be operated for - a war of total annhiliation. Assuming they were
submerged when the first strike missiles launched, there would be a period of
under an hour before they struck their targets. During that time, the ground
based second strike might be launched by the United States, but France and the
UK have no ground based nuclear launch capability. Operational depth is
usually below radio depth, so there would be no contact until surfacing again,
at which point the submarine commanders would have to face the knowledge that
most people they ever knew were probably dead and their cities destroyed. They
would then have to open their sealed orders and decide if they wanted to carry
out another mass murder of civilians as a reprisal, find someone to surrender
to, or simply turn the gun on themselves.

~~~
JoeDaDude
To be fair, the subs are not 100% isolated when submerged. I don't know the
protocol or time interval between communications, bur there are two systems
that at least the US uses to maintain command of then nuclear subs. One is the
TACAMO ELF system [1], which transmits radio signals capable of reception at
some depth below sea water [1]. A second is the Navy EHF Satellite Support
System (NESP) [2] in which a small satellite dish mounted on the periscope is
used. I can only speculate on what the operating orders are should a sub not
receive communications from one of those after some period of time.

[1].
[https://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/scmp/part07.htm](https://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/scmp/part07.htm)

[https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-deadliest-
air...](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-deadliest-aircraft-the-
us-militarys-arsenal-you-have-20305)

[2].
[https://www.public.navy.mil/subfor/underseawarfaremagazine/I...](https://www.public.navy.mil/subfor/underseawarfaremagazine/Issues/Archives/issue_01/voices.htm)

~~~
chrisseaton
> To be fair, the subs are not 100% isolated when submerged.

Obviously - they wouldn't be any use if you couldn't tell them to fire their
missiles while they were submerged, would they?

~~~
leetcrew
the subs don't need to be ready to retaliate immediately to be an effective
deterrent. part of the strategic value of nuclear-armed subs is that the
opponent can't destroy all of your launching capabilities in a first strike,
even if they think they've located all your land-based sites.

real-time communication with subs is probably only necessary to rapidly
coordinate a first strike, or to specifically order them _not_ to fire in an
ambiguous situation.

~~~
justin66
In the United States, at least, ballistic missile submarines that never
receive an authenticated launch order will not launch their missiles. It's
meant to be technologically impossible.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge knows if it's possible to give an
authenticated order along the lines of "if you don't hear back from us in an
hour, launch all your missiles." I've never heard of such a thing but there
are at least two former submariners here on hn, so...

------
jedc
Former US Navy submariner here. This article seems... overblown.

Now I was on fast-attack submarines (versus ballistic missile boats), but we
regularly got email roughly every day when at sea. During certain operations,
we would even regularly get an abridged NYTimes PDF news summary sent to us.
And my grandmother died when I was underway on deployment - I got notified
immediately. (Though obviously wasn't able to travel back.)

One important thing is that the IT admins on the boat had various scripts
they'd run against all the email sent/received to help ensure that classified
information didn't leak out, or troubling information (I think like family
deaths?) leak in. But it never felt invasive.

Maybe the French Navy operates very differently than the American Navy, but...
I call BS on this article.

~~~
baud147258
From what I've heard from people in the French navy, the submariners aboard
the ballistic missile boats are nearly fully isolated from the rest of the
world, as described in the article. But the French attack subs might be like
you describe.

~~~
jedc
Key point - the variation only applies when a ballistic missile submarine is
"on patrol". Which is definitely not the same period of time as when they're
out at sea.

When a ballistic missile submarine is NOT on patrol they operate just like a
fast-attack submarine.

------
dhosek
When I was a kid and would go off on boy scout camping trips of 1–2 weeks, I
always imagined returning from the trips to discover some big important thing
had happened while we were cut off from civilization. It never had. It'll be
strange coming to the surface from this mission.

~~~
arethuza
That reminds me of the excellent novel _Earth Abides_

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Abides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Abides)

~~~
ASlave2Gravity
What struck me most with this book was the rats!

Most humans die due to a virus and cities are left 99% empty. There reaches a
point where all the rats flee the city (having eaten all the food they can)
and arrive in endless waves at the protagonist's home.

------
ryancnelson
I'd bet that there's usually at least a reporting of "the latest sports
scores", etc, to keep people somewhat entertained with the world above.

I'd think that the staff would question "all sports are cancelled, everywhere"
without follow-up questions. UNLESS someone is just making up scores for an
imaginary league that's being played.

That'd be an elegant solution ... and a FASCINATING story to uncover someday
(or write up, as fiction)

~~~
GreedCtrl
> making up scores for an imaginary league that's being played.

Real sports might not work this way, but there is an imaginary sport whose
virus-immune atheletes continue to compete even now. Jelle's Marble Runs [1]
is a Youtube channel that hosts marble races in Olympic or Fomula One fashion,
complete with TV-style animations and commentary.

It's all for fun, of course, but it is an interesting look at sports without
sports, in a sense.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYJdpnjuSWVOLgGT9fIzL0g](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYJdpnjuSWVOLgGT9fIzL0g)

~~~
nexuist
Similar to this: The Diecast Racing League!

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUEDZmOCqa0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUEDZmOCqa0)

(not affiliated)

------
ryanmercer
Given that it appears at least 2 of the United States's aircraft carriers [1]
have confirmed cases aboard, I'm sure every military has been in touch with
their silent service folks, if just the captains at a minimum.

While subs sometimes run silent, at least the United States ones still receive
communication while doing so via VLF and even ELF. ELF at a few characters per
minute can still communicate enough to have them come up just enough to to be
optimal for VLF and receive whatever info. I think informing the ships about a
highly contagious virus would probably rank up there with very important
information.

I'm no military expert but if I had a bunch of guys in subs with finite
supplies I might want to communicate "hey, maybe implement mild rationing
because when you guys come home we might send you right back out after we send
heavily sanitized stores out to you that you shouldn't open for a week or so.

\- [1] [https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/covid-19-cases-reported-
on-b...](https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/covid-19-cases-reported-on-both-us-
aircraft-carriers-in-western-pacific/)

------
bradstewart
I cannot imagine what it must be like to live in a submarine for months at a
time, even without being greeted by a pandemic upon return.

~~~
brink
Probably like what you're likely feeling now - quarantine. Just with less bad
news, less natural light, and more people in your house.

~~~
bradstewart
The lack of natural light seems like it would really, really mess with me.
Maybe it's possible to prepare for that with certain training, I don't know.

I'm lucky enough to have a backyard, in which I've been spending a lot of time
lately.

~~~
numpad0
Sunburns. Human skin generates Vitamin D out of UV damages to it, which plays
roles in hair and nails but also in maintaining healthy thoughts somehow.

Apparently kids in arctic regions receive “sunbathing” sessions in a dark room
with UV lamps for this reason. I’ve been thinking to replicate it but haven’t
been able to find much technicalities in it...

~~~
jules-jules
Look for a solid Vit D3 K2 combo and you should be golden.

~~~
dralley
Although, be careful with your Vitamin K intake if you're highly sedentary.
Increases the risk of blood clotting problems.

It's not a problem if you're active though.

------
aequitas
Just in: a Dutch submarine had to abort it's mission because part of the crew
has been tested positive for corona.

[https://nos.nl/liveblog/2328775-deel-bemanning-
nederlandse-o...](https://nos.nl/liveblog/2328775-deel-bemanning-nederlandse-
onderzeeer-besmet-taxichauffeurs-mogen-niet-demonstreren#UPDATE-
container-44392127)

------
hopfog
To get an idea how it would be to "wake up" to all this I've found clips from
Big Brother pretty interesting:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6vwVUYmv7I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6vwVUYmv7I)

I even think there are some countries where they still don't know anything
(Brazil?).

------
timonoko
My cellphone broke last summer I was paddling on lake Inari. Immediate panic.
There is no-one I need to have contact with. The housing co-op will take of
the apartment and there is nothing of real value in there. My other
inventments transactions were blocked until september. But I just could not
stand it. After a day or two I paddled to Ivalo.

The point is that I have lived up to 6 months in wilderness without any human
contact. In Kodiak 1996 I occasionally listened to BBC shortwave, but nothing
of interest ever happened so I soon forgot about it.

There is some fundamental issue that needs to be fixed. Maybe they should have
sign on the moon, "NOTHING HAS HAPPENED, just take it easy".

------
neonate
[https://archive.md/V1HO8](https://archive.md/V1HO8)

------
ur-whale
[https://archive.is/hM3Mq](https://archive.is/hM3Mq)

------
zelon88
Anybody have a non-paywall version?

------
Cthulhu_
Isn't that by design? IIRC the nuclear submarines go dark for a long time and
are trained for a scenario in which their home country has been nuked into
obliteration. Or plans what they need to do if there is no contact with the
home front anymore (that is, fire the nukes). This may no longer be the case
though, I'm just going with bits I may have seen on the TV from the cold war.

But yeah, tldr they are trained to find a nuclear apocalypse when they
resurface.

------
setgree
> Salles himself was at sea in a sub when his father died, but the news was
> kept from him until he had finished his 60-day mission.

Goodness -- I already thought 'submariner' might be the world's worst job and
this clinches it.

