
Ask HN: Is work worth leaving College for? - kiraken
I&#x27;m a 19 year old Freelance web developer. I&#x27;ve been at it for the last couple of years and have a decent number of clients and billings. Enough to pay for college, support me and help out with the family. I started learning to code very early in life and after these years of freelancing, i can adapt to whichever work environment i&#x27;m put in. After all freelance work is a good way to learn new things and improve on your skills.<p>Anyhow i started getting job offers quite often lately and been turning them down, but now i feel like i&#x27;m wasting my time, effort and money going to college just to get a degree that wouldn&#x27;t serve me much. So now i&#x27;m torn between going to college and freelancing like i do now or taking one of the job offers, because it would help me in my career and would be a much easier work than freelancing, i doubt it would pay more, but i really need stability in my life
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anigbrowl
You're getting job offers because it's cheaper to hire you without a degree.
the day you become more expensive than a raw new graduate is the day your
company revises its hiring policies and uses them as an excuse to forget about
you. You don't say whether you're studying computer science or something else,
but if you don't feel challenged then maybe you should switch major to some
field where your skills/knowledge are deficient _and_ there are barriers or
resistance to automation and computerization.

At your age I chose work and financial freedom over college (although the
decision was much more complex than I want to explain here), figuring that I
could continue educating myself with books and determination...which I did,
but I lost out on a _lot_ of opportunities, both economic and social, because
of not having the degree or the social network you build up in college. For
example, what if you decide you want to live in some other country a few years
from now? A degree can make the difference between a work visa and automatic
rejection. If you are very entrepreneurial and create your own opportunities
by relentlessly pursuing goals and seeking out new clients, this may not be a
problem for you. If you're naturally talented and your freelance jobs sort of
fell into your lap, then your popularity is evanescent and you will find
yourself increasingly pigeonholed over time, which will require you to adopt
less efficient economic strategies. Your mention of a desire for stability
suggests to me that you in the second group.

Having a degree is not the same thing as being educated, but it does represent
a very important type of social capital that will allow you to access a much
greater range of shortcuts. Not just in job offers - you will enjoy small but
significant savings on things like insurance, consumer finance and so on, the
totals of which are quite significant over a lifetime. I don't regret any of
the time I've invested in broadening my knowledge, critical thinking skills
and so on, but I can't bank it the same way as someone who has a degree can.
If I had a time machine I would absolutely go back and convince myself to do
things differently, so my advice is stick it out now and reap substantial
rewards later. Without it you are like the feature phone/landline user in a
smartphone world.

~~~
kiraken
What you said is true, i used to just code for myself, i didn't even share
that aspect of myself with anyone. Until one day i stumbled upon a contract
and did it just for fun. The money was good and each contract brought me
another, and since i charge 50% upfront i really couldn't say no to some of
the project that were a lot of money. Which brings us to this moment in time
where i'm working on 3 contracts and probably gonna not sleep this weekend to
finish everything in the deadline. So that's why i asked for stability, i
don't care about the money as long as its a bit close to what i'm making now.
I just din't want to be working at 2am in the morning anymore.

As for the original point. Yes i do agree, you make a compelling point

~~~
alt_f4
Why don't you get another freelancer to help you with the work you can't
handle within healthy working hours?

------
atmosx
A degree will be very hard to pursue later, but jobs offers will continue to
run in.

IMHO the best solution to your problem is to try to get the degree ASAP while
keeping some jobs, just enough to keep you going. College will broaden your
circle and knowledge. Try to enter a research group, since you're so skilled.
That might give you access to great startup ideas that can only be pursued in
that environment. Also college is fun, try get some of that too.

You should get the degree in order to level up socially. Will make your life
easier.

Any college has to give probably more than you can handle in different many
different ways. Try to get all of that because ain't going to come from
anywhere else.

You'll have time to work, as a freelancer, an employee or do you own thing,
you are only 19. Now it's time to study, focus on the studies :-)

------
throwdegree
Contrary to the loud signal you'll hear in much of industry, there is still a
large part of it where you won't be taken seriously without a degree.

If you want to work on good teams, teams that have been carefully selected,
you have to be able to have been selected for those teams.

I wasn't very strategic with my education (academic or self) with employment
or with technologies I chose to be proficient in, and so on paper I probably
look like pretty much any other high-school-educated "Open Source Hacker".
People that hire me are also going to be hiring the guy that installed
Wordpress for his church once, the guy that everything he writes takes
geometric time and doesn't question it because he has no idea how fast
computers really are, having only worked with synchronous multi-page
HTML+JS+PHP "apps" running on shared hosting, etc. Nobody can tell that I'm
different from these characters until after they have hired me (and after my
wage is negotiated...) and I will have to work with the teams they have chosen
and fix what they break.

As far as I can tell so far, I'm not able to be hired on teams for which I
would be a good fit ("I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as
a member" but with bills to worry about). I've had received apologetic
application rejection emails faster than it's humanly possible to have been
considered - I can't even convince some (literal) HR robot to give me a
chance. I've done well enough for myself despite this (I don't intend to be
pitied), but I certainly do not recommend the situation.

A degree is not the best filter to be able to pass to avoid this kind of fate
(the best is probably social connectivity - but that can very easily be a
side-effect of graduation) but it is one. Whatever you do, make sure you have
many.

------
Mz
I will suggest you read a few biographies. Bill Gates and Madonna are both
college drop outs. It doesn't appear to have hurt either of their careers. On
the other hand, looking around me, it seems to me that more educated people
tend to have a somewhat smoother experience of life. Those who were born with
talent seems to take it really hard when the run into situations they aren't
innately well equipped to handle.

That doesn't make college the automatic right answer. I think you need to find
some historical or public figures that you can identify with in some way and
see how the handled it and see if you can infer if which path seems like the
better fit for you personally.

I can argue it in either direction if I care to (for college or against
college). But that doesn't answer the question as to which is the right answer
for you in specific.

~~~
obrero
> Bill Gates and Madonna are both college drop outs. It doesn't appear to have
> hurt either of their careers.

Bill Gates was also born with a million dollar trust fund, so make sure you
have a safety net and starting capital like that as well before dropping out.

------
andersonmvd
tl;dr; it's really up to you, either way are a good way to go with some trade-
off. pick what suits you best.

If you're just looking for a diploma, I'd recommend you to drop it off. If you
want to learn, pick a great university and embrace it. The solid base that
you'll get will be worth it, but you'll spend much time and will be very
tough.

However, nowadays you can embrace coursera and learn on demand while studying
the current market. That's what I chose for myself as I wanted to work over
'study'. I kept doing specialization over specialization and I like it. I also
admire who went to good universities. Bad ones you should drop off. Unless
you're a Stanford engineer, your 'diploma' today is your portifolio (github
projects per say) and your network.

~~~
kiraken
Well is there a reason to finish college aside from a solid base? I mean
doesn't starting early would give me head start?

And aside from that, do you think that if i decide to drop school i should
stick to freelancing or find a steady job?

~~~
andersonmvd
Yes, there is. If you enter in a good university, e.g., MIT, you'll know a lot
of smart people which will also be good to your network. You'll also have
access to smart teachers.

Yes, starting early gives you a head start and you won't lose it, unless you
stop studying. But study can be achieved inside a college or outside it.
That's where Coursera/EdX comes in along with courses (40 hours usually) and
self-studying -- but note that you're less likely to study some subjects like
Math, which after some years looked very interesting to me as I wanna dive in
machine learning for example. Ok, I can learn on demand, but that's because
now I see a very good application for Math :D -- there is no 'correct' way to
do it, just don't stop learning.

I don't really know your financial conditions, but supposing that you can
choose without fear, considering your age, I'd first say that you choose both!
What?! Both, yes. I really enjoyed working a big company (Walmart), increase
the network and saw the 'company way' of doing things. But when I got tired I
switched to freelance mode. There are trade-offs. Again, there is no 'right
way'. Depends on many things. The proposed salary, the freedom you are willing
to give up, the job conditions x freelance conditions, how much you survive
bosses ordering you around, etc.

If you don't know freelance and company is interesting to try them out to see
what fits more for you. The problem (actually a good problem to have) is that
you have many clients as you said, and if you go to a company, you'll need to
get them back again. I can't really give you a straight answers, I'm telling
more about what I went through and the variables that you should consider
IMHO.

Btw: learned only years later, but a diploma can help you A LOT if you want to
immigrate

~~~
kiraken
Well i can probably manage to hold a job while freelancing on the side. I'd
like not to, but i'm still young and can take the stress and exhaustion i
suppose

~~~
andersonmvd
That would mostly kill your freelance side. You'll end up exhausted in the end
of the day I think, thus won't be much creative to work more. The brain just
crash hehe. If at least you could work 3 days in a week to see what it is
like. Otherwise don't bother, this time may come in the future. You may end up
in a big project which the client allows you to use his space to interact with
the company's team somehow. You will even be able to negotiate this, like a
discount to use his office to see what's like more close. Just an idea.

------
rgovind
College programs (ideally) will expose you to different kinds of ideas,
subjects, people and technologies. It formalizes your knowledges. This means
you can pursue more valuable ideas in future. Also, a formal degree can open
doors to going and working abroad.

I think you should seriously go for a degree.

If you want to keep making money, hire a guy and give him your freelance work,
share the profits.

------
bearzoo
Contrary to what many people will tell you - a degree is just ONE of the
things you go to college for. Go to college. Your at a great age, and will
have experiences you will not be able to have at any other time in your life.
It is worth it, it will help you grow. You can keep a client or two on the
side to pay bills, etc..

------
timetraveller
That depends on your current hourly rate. What is it?

~~~
kiraken
I usually get paid per project. A landing page for 2500$ a normal static
website 3000$ for 5 pages and 200$ more for each page. But if i'm working on a
Frontend/Backend gig i charge 150$ per hour

~~~
icpmacdo
Where have you gotten work from while still in school? Do you do all your work
remote? Do you have a portfolio available to show publicly here so I can see
what kind of skill level I need to get work that pays that well?

Im graduating a (Canadian) College web dev course at the end of next semester
and the only work I have managed to get was some WordPress stuff that ended up
being less than 15$ an hour. I am actively looking to find front/backend work
that pays halfway decent right now.

------
tylerFowler
I'm in a similar sort of situation. After my 3rd year of college pursuing a CS
degree, I realized I was learning more on my own than I was at school. I too
had started programming early on, teaching myself C++ at 14.

I'm glad I went to college but after a while I felt like it had served it's
purpose for me, I had already completed the major courses (data structures,
software architecture, etc...) and pretty much just had courses like Compiler
Construction and OS Design left. So I had an internship at a startup the
summer after my 3rd year (summer of 2014) and I was immediately placed as the
only developer working on a web application for analyzing our production logs.
I did well and near the end of my internship I was offered a job... and I took
it. So I dropped out and for a year now I've been working at the same startup
and am now the lead (and only) developer on all of our web services. I don't
regret not finishing school, though it's been a little bittersweet watching
all of my friends graduating in past few months.. My view is that you should
get all you can out of college while it's in your best interest, I just didn't
feel it was helping me as much as a job in the industry would, and I'm
certainly doing well enough. Not to mention the fact that most universities
don't even offer a real program for full stack web development. I've even been
getting a lot of interest from recruiters (on avg. about 4 positions a month
for a year) despite not having a degree.

That being said, something I've heard a lot from the developers I work with is
that later on it could be an excuse for employers not to pay me as much. Even
with this first gig I'm seeing that I'm getting paid less than new employees
with less knowledge & experience than me and for a lesser position, simply
because they have a degree. The approach that I'm taking is to ride out this
job for a while longer and then getting another job, and if me not having a
degree poses a problem in any way I'll just go and finish my degree (which
will take about 2.5 more years due to a transfer after my sophomore year). I'm
22 right now so it would certainly be better for me to do it now rather than
later but I'm simply not convinced yet that it will be a problem later on.
It's also worth noting that I'm taking a lot of courses on Coursera and am
going through the web specializations to add the certifications to my resume,
which will definitely help to make up for not having a degree and are much
more manageable while I'm working full time.

All that being said, I'm _highly_ interested to hear what current employers
have to say about someone having ample experience/knowledge but having no
degree, especially when it comes to equality of pay vs. coworkers with higher
education degrees.

~~~
kiraken
I see that we're in the same boat buddy. If i was you 2 years ago, would you
tell me to take the job or to finish college

~~~
tylerFowler
Honestly I'd say feel it out. I don't know about you but for me it's fairly
easy for me to go back to school, which is a very real possibility for me. I
mean worst case scenario I take a year or two off from school to make some
money and work the very job I'd be hoping to get after graduation, which makes
me an even stronger candidate if I get the degree. But my biggest fear is
ending up missing out on opportunities when I'm 40 and wishing I had just
taken the 2 years to finish. For me another fallback plan was to get
experience and then if I go back I could easily find clients freelancing
instead of working the usual waiting jobs during school, which would make me
substantially more spending money while in school, but it sounds like you're
already there. So I say try it, for me it was very refreshing after being
tired of school, and then go from there.

------
rnovak
I think at the end of the day, you don't know what tomorrows going to bring.
You may be getting job offers now, but what does that really get you? Not sure
if you're in the US or not, but at least in the US, Employment is at-will in
many states, _especially_ for engineers.

In _many, many, many_ cases, I think a degree _cannot_ hurt you, only help
you. Yes, I have seen examples of people who would rather work with someone
without a degree, but I truly believe those employers are few and far between.
If you ever get tired of living the start-up life (you never know what
tomorrow brings, what if you start a family and don't want the risks
associated with freelancing? What if you just decide one day it's not for you
anymore? The only thing certain about the future is that it's uncertain), a
degree will get you in the door at places that offer A) Great
Pensions/Retirement packages, B) Great Healthcare, and other great perks,
places that you probably wouldn't even get an interview if you don't have your
degree.

Personally speaking, I have a great deal of respect for anyone who knows what
they're doing. I've worked with people without a formal education, and those
with. There's a major difference though, in that the people I've worked with
who have a formal education, we have common ground. Meaning, it's much more
likely that when I say the "pigeon hole principal", someone who took discrete
mathematics (one of the cornerstones of CS) will remember something about it.
For someone without a degree, there's a lower chance that they'd know what I
was talking about (not impossible, not unlikely even, just less of a chance).

Does that matter? Not a whole lot for some stuff, but in other areas
absolutely. In software, I generally am not disappointed if my colleagues
haven't designed something using an FPGA and Verilog, or have any clue as to
the difference between x86 and x64 ISAs, but if they don't get the concept of
a linked-list, or a queue, stack, or something else fundamental to computer-
science, it does slow work down. If they're a javascript developer and don't
know what a prototype is, or how function literals/closures work, it can slow
communication down.

Then again, I haven't worked much in the front-end, or even in Web. I focus
primarily on desktop/server/batch/financial software, so I work in low level
code, such as c/c++/COBOL and Java(debatably high-level).

At it's core, engineering is the use of knowledge and the scientific method to
solve problems and build cool/useful stuff. Experience builds that knowledge,
and all college does is focus your experience on knowledge that a group of
people believe will be useful to you, as well as on a meta-level as well
(learning how to learn was really what I took away from school the most).

Just keep in mind that going back is _way_ harder than just finishing it while
you're already there. You get use to the perks of being at work, and then
going back to the academic life really gets harder, the longer your away (at
least that's what I've found).

Hope that helps, and good luck on your journey.

