
433% Keyboard - _salmon
https://relivesight.com/projects/433/
======
ardy42
All of the images are now offline (some google drive traffic limit?), but the
internet archive managed to capture _one_ :

[https://web.archive.org/web/20200916174120/https://relivesig...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200916174120/https://relivesight.com/projects/433/)

The image itself:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20200916210058/https://doc-14-a0...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200916210058/https://doc-14-a0-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/securesc/ha0ro937gcuc7l7deffksulhg5h7mbp1/5pjjukcud1av1igp69u2gvoa2r8blfj6/1600290000000/11170127954417298430/*/1q99gN9PK-m8a6wxMlPnEBEt9rFs3SRws?e=view)

~~~
moron4hire
Is this a troll? I mean, why make a custom keyboard with even one pause/break
key, let alone... Three?

~~~
alpaca128
Did you consider that those keys aren't actually what it says on the labels
because one-off keyboards with more than 100% of the standard layout have keys
that no correct labeling exists for?

~~~
moron4hire
Did you consider that this project actually is a troll?

~~~
AtHeartEngineer
Did you consider spending your nights and weekends building one to find out?

~~~
blizdiddy
I'm gonna build one! Ordered two boards immediately. Qmk orthogonal keyboards
are trivial to add MIDI to and super fun, I've made a few. I already have the
switches. Grand piano range with a bass guitar layout

------
autocorr
For some context, this project was basically made to one up someone else, so
it's not fully serious. Part of what makes the keyboard funny though is that
(a niche of) the custom mechanical keyboard scene has been moving to many
fewer keys and programming the firmware to compensate. So it's pretty funny
going from seeing several Planck ~49 key layouts to seeing this gargantuan
_450_ key absolute unit.

Sincerely typed by someone on a 44 key layout :)

~~~
codezero
Is it an Atreus? How do you like that size of keyboard? I'm not too bothered
about adopting some chords, but more interested in the general ergonomics /
RSI risks.

~~~
readingnews
I am not OP, but I moved to a 40% (44 key minivan) about a year ago, and I am
using it as my daily driver at home and work. I find that the fact that I can
reach every key on the board and barely move my hands has helped a lot. The
other interesting notation is that I can put the mouse really, really close
by. So the motion going from keyboard to mouse is greatly reduced. I find that
my wrists are much better off with this.

~~~
EForEndeavour
What sort of WPM did you have on normal keyboards, and whta have you been able
to train up to on your current one? I plateaued at roughly 35 WPM on Dvorak as
a teenager and have been hesitant to commit to major layout changes since
then, despite the ergonomic promises that a lot of them make.

~~~
sascha_sl
You can keep the normal layout on a 40%, you just wouldn't have
number/function/nav keys without layers

40% is _not_ just plank, and I personally find the ergonomics of a plank board
to be rather bad compared to staggered, unless it's split.

~~~
EForEndeavour
That reminds me, I consider losing arrow keys a dealbreaker. I use them
frequently enough to navigate both text and code in various contexts (except
in Vim, which I don't use exclusively). I already hold modifiers to jump to
next/prev word boundary, page, start/end of continuous data ranges in Excel,
etc. Admittedly, I'd probably adapt, but I'm held back by the belief that any
ergonomic advantages of moving to wasd or hjkl would be wiped out by reduction
in speed and muscle memory for me.

~~~
Symbiote
I had similar misgivings, so I chose an ErgoDash, which has a few more keys
than some of the minimalist offerings. I have the arrow keys in a horizontal
row (which took some time to adapt to), but I can still use them with
Alt/Ctrl/Shift modifiers fairly easily.

However, I'm planning on making something like this[1] "trackball Dactyl
Manuform", where the trackball under the thumb can be configured to use
different modes -- e.g. a key toggles it between being a mouse and being arrow
keys, and another locks it to vertical/horizontal. It could be combined with
holding Alt/Ctrl/Shift.

I made a gallery of split/ergonomic mechanical keyboards if you'd like a quick
overview of other options. [2]

[1] [https://medium.com/@kincade/track-beast-build-log-a-
trackbal...](https://medium.com/@kincade/track-beast-build-log-a-trackball-
dactyl-manuform-19eaa0880222)

[2] [https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-
keyboards/](https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/)

~~~
ZeroGravitas
Do you happen to have an opinion on the best split keyboard for someone who
uses and likes a Kinesis Advantage but would like a more portable alternative?

Or even suggestions on what I'd need to google to find opinions of people in
that group?

~~~
Symbiote
This Reddit [1] might have some ideas.

Anything 3D/dished like the Advantage isn't going to be very portable, just
because of the bulk. I suspect many DIY versions are also fairly delicate, as
a result of the 3D printing process.

For a flat, split keyboard you could look for one where someone has already
designed a case that goes some way to protecting the keys, or make such a case
yourself. I wouldn't choose something with this few keys, but [2] is on the
first page of the Reddit, and shows what I mean -- unlike the keyboards where
the "case" is just a sheet of acrylic, this one looks like it would be OK
stuffed in a bag. Many of these keyboards use a Pro Micro controller, which is
known to have a weak USB port. Using a wireless keyboard, or choosing a
different controller, might also help.

You will have far more options if you're able to solder the components onto
the PCB yourself. Otherwise, there are a few companies like falba.tech that
sell assembled keyboards.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/)

[2]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/ir7axv/a...](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/ir7axv/akufu36_ver20_akufu32/)

~~~
ZeroGravitas
Thank you!

------
m463
I think a better layout might be like an organist, where you have different
levels.

sort of like this:
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Frederik...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Frederik_Magle_playing_organ_2011_%28III%29.jpg)

And they even have keys (modifier keys?) for their feet. They left that off
the table (so to speak)

hmm... and maybe some sort of suspension system for your arms, so your arms
could float over the keyboard sort of like monitor arms keep your monitor
suspended in place but allow movement.

~~~
htfy96
Or if you want just some minor additions, try Sun Oracle Type-7 keyboard which
has ~10 keys (including Copy, Paste, Undo, Cut - perfect for Stackoverflow-
oriented programming) on the left

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sun_Oracle_type-7_keybo...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sun_Oracle_type-7_keyboard.jpg)

~~~
kps
Sun keyboards are mushy, though. Unicomp has 122-key Model M keyboards with 10
keys on the left _and_ 24 function keys at the top.

------
c0nsumer
This is pretty interesting, but it'd be great if the author explained their
reason for building such a large keyboard... even if it's just "for reasons".

~~~
thkoli
this was also posted on r/MechanicalKeyboards and the reason behind it was
something like “I made a 128 keys keyboard, someone else made a bigger
keyboard so I had to retaliate”

~~~
SuperPaintMan
That's exactly why I made Ginny (the small red keyboard in OP)! It's an
exercise in insanity, but it does work as a fully functional keyboard powered
by ASETNOIP. I could never daily it (too attached to my 36key GergoPlex) but
some users are above 130WPM on 10keys!

[https://www.gboards.ca/product/ginni](https://www.gboards.ca/product/ginni)

------
notRobot
Is it just me or is the text on the webpage completely unreadable with that
font and shadow effect?

~~~
Markoff
agreed, immediately closed, not sure why they bother with writing something if
obviously they don't care if anyone reads it with choosing font/effect like
this

------
jcrawfordor
I regularly use what I call a "140% keyboard" which has a total of 140 keys.
This is the regular 104-key layout with added keys in various places such as
between the alphanumeric and F key section, filling the gaps between cursor
keys and the block above it, etc. The keyboard has on-board macro programming
and multi-layer logic.

I use it for things like having keys which jump directly to specific windows,
keys which open various terminal types, and even macros for some common
commands (Git operations for example).

I don't know that there's any good reason why this isn't more popular other
than fashion, which means that an industry has not really built up around
plus-sized keyboards like it has around smaller ones. My example was purchased
used and was formerly used at a telephone operator's workstation, based on the
key legends. There is a fairly robust used market for plus-sized keyboards
originally used for specialty applications, mostly POS and dispatchers/radio
operators, from companies like PrehKeyTec and Cherry (of the switches).
Unfortunately they mostly cost $500+ new and still often demand over $100
used. The majority of these keyboards feature on-board macro programming, but
are intended to be programmed in bulk by the vendor of some turnkey solution
so the programming tools are a bit awkward (for me, use a GUI keymap editor,
export a file, use a command line tool to flash the generated file to the
keyboard - I think it actually just produces a full firmware image each time).

The only real disadvantage I would report is that the PrehKeyTecs are made
with dome switches that feel decidedly mushy when they're old (and my used
model is probably around a decade old). The Cherries use mechanical switches,
of course, but tend to be more expensive and aren't made in as interesting of
configurations IMO.

~~~
mindslight
Do you happen to have a picture of the layout? I too wish for a keyboard with
more keys, especially vertically. But besides an extra row or two of F-keys, I
haven't come up with any logical extensions.

~~~
jcrawfordor
It's a variant of the PrehKeyTec MCI3100. Photo:
[https://www.prehkeytec.com/fileadmin/user_upload/global/prod...](https://www.prehkeytec.com/fileadmin/user_upload/global/products/MCI_3100/mci3100-2.jpg)

Note the blanks in the lower right there do have switches under them so you
could put keys there as well (that's where mine has Hold and UnHold
incidentally). One warning is that the blank keycaps and relegendable keycaps
(the ones that are a clear plastic cover you can stick a bit of paper under)
are mostly sold in bulk to system integrators and it's expensive to get them
in small quantities. So if you're in the market, you probably want one with as
many of those as possible. PrehKeyTec's software supports printing legends for
them but it's pretty basic so you might want to use something else to design
them.

------
croddin
If my math is right, a keyboard with every currently defined Unicode character
would only be about 16 feet by 16 feet. Someone should make one.

~~~
JazzXP
Not quite that, but Tom Scott did an Emoji Keyboard that was spread across 3
or 4 keyboards.

------
russellbeattie
Two thoughts:

1) For some reason this thing gives me joy. Imagine sitting at work in front
of one of these bad boy keyboards! You'd never get interrupted! People would
assume you're running a battleship remotely or something!

2) It seems very Soviet. Or at least very 80s Anime - this is the keyboard we
should all be using, only each key should light up in disco colors.

------
knaq
That's a surprise. I was expecting keys 433% as large as ordinary ones. It
could be for a person who types with feet, arm stumps, or elbows. It could be
for a person in protective gear. It could be for a trained animal. It could be
for entertainment, such as by hitting the keys from a distance to win a
carnival prize.

------
KajMagnus
This could be useful for pair programming?

~~~
codetrotter
You might even be able to fit a whole octet of programmers around a keyboard
of that size.

All working together casting arcane spells with the aid of the keyboard.

Dialects of programming languages so old and obscure that even Cthulhu himself
would flinch at the sight upon such seeing.

~~~
gpm
This sounds like something that would fit right in in the average movie about
programmers.

~~~
KajMagnus
Or a movie about Special Agents, pair programming they do too

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8qgehH3kEQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8qgehH3kEQ)

------
sexpositivepriv
This probably didn't make it to the western press

[https://japan.googleblog.com/2010/04/google.html](https://japan.googleblog.com/2010/04/google.html)

~~~
nullsense
Brilliant. I love the special keys for faces / emojis.

------
na85
So can you just bind arbitrary keys to arbitrary characters? Aren't there a
limited number of codes (scan codes?) that the keyboard will send out?

~~~
jrockway
There are a limited number of scancodes; defined by the USB standard. The
annoying thing for keyboards is that the OS controls what scancode maps to
what character and that makes it impossible to have certain keys.

For example, you can't have an ! key. That is always Shift+1 (with a US
layout, that is). QMK and other firmwares will let you make an ! key, but it's
implemented by pressing shift, then pressing 1. So you could never make a
keyboard shortcut that is Shift+! even though you can press that on your
keyboard. The OS wouldn't be able to tell the difference between than and
Shift+1. As a corollary, you couldn't rebind your keyboard such that Shift+1
outputs @ instead of !.

It's really just a classic case of bad abstraction. All the keyboard hardware
does is scan rows and see which columns are also active. That gives you a grid
position like (1,2) for "w". It is then forced to translate that to a scancode
that it sends to the computer. The computer then sees that scancode and
translates it to a letter. Obviously, things would be easier to program if the
keyboard just emitted characters, or the OS just read key matrix grid
positions. (In the first case, your X key would always be X, no matter what.
Annoying for laptop users that want to use Dvorak, of course. In the second
case, things like QMK wouldn't need to exist, you could just write a normal
program running on your computer to add layers, shifting, tap dances, etc.)

The end result is that everything sucks. Isn't it always?

~~~
mindslight
Stepping back, why would you actually _want_ the keyboard firmware to have
configurable settings and runtime state? xkbcomp (Linux/Xorg) is buggy as
hell, but I'd say it's still fundamentally the right abstraction to do this on
the host. Configuring a layout on the keyboard is itself the hack, really only
encouraged by the recent innovation happening there.

~~~
JdeBP
It's been a hack for years, not merely recently. Maltron keyboards used to
switch layouts between the "PC" and "Maltron" layouts by the keyboard moving
scancodes around, in response to a physical switch at the back of the
keyboard, back in the days of PS/2 keyboards.

------
dijit
maybe I missed it in the article, though I read through it twice.. Why do
this?

~~~
Someone
Reading
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24497839](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24497839),
there’s a keycap gap. “They” have more keys than “us”, so we must get even
more, even though we already have more than we will ever need.

------
fizixer
Hate to be that person, but I'm surprised people like mech keyboards. I
ordered one, hated it so much, I actually decided to return it. Too loud, too
much force required to type. My ideal keyboard is the low-profile laptop
keyboard, especially the thinkpad one, the one before chiclet keys became a
fad.

~~~
snazz
This is perfectly understandable—mechanical keyboards are certainly not for
everyone. I’m in the same boat but for slightly different reasons (and my
ideal keyboards are the ThinkPad one you described and the desktop Apple Magic
Keyboard, which has a really satisfying key feel).

I think a lot of people in the mechanical keyboard community think of their
keyboards as a hobby just as much as a day-to-day tool. The huge variety of
key-switches and keycaps and firmwares and the much greater customization
opportunities make mechanical keyboards a very good hobby. And, given the
variety, it’s probably possible to find the “perfect” keyboard for everyone.

In the end, I was convincing myself that the expensive mechanical keyboard I
bought was better than my ThinkPad and Mac keyboards, when I actually still
prefer the laptop-style keys. Is there a mech keyboard out there somewhere
that would be the perfect fit for me? I’m sure. But I don’t want to spend the
time and money searching for it when my current preferred models work plenty
well for me. I’d rather spend my resources in other ways.

------
varbhat
Why are there >3 rows of Fn keys ? Are they all different? Or Are they placed
so to quickly access ?

~~~
ardy42
> Why are there >3 rows of Fn keys ? Are they all different? Or Are they
> placed so to quickly access ?

It looks like the creator just used whatever random keycaps he had. There are
also duplicate arrow keys and duplicates from the navigation cluster (e.g.
pgdown). The katakana(?) keys also look like they might be incomplete.

~~~
FreeFull
I know that at least Linux does support additional F keys beyond F12, since
there used to be computers/keyboards that had them. I'm not sure how having
more than 255 keys works out, though, I haven't looked into how USB HID
handles it.

~~~
JdeBP
There's enough for 65535 different usages in the keyboard page alone, and
there are more available in the consumer and system pages. But nowhere near
all of those have definitions.

There are defined usages for function keys up to F24, and for all of the
dedicated function keys that one could find on Sun and IBM keyboards, such as
Stop, Again, ExSel, and CrSel.

~~~
mncharity
[https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/include/uapi/l...](https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/include/uapi/linux/input-
event-codes.h)

~~~
JdeBP
Those are not USB HID usages, notice.

------
swsieber
While were on the topic of keyboards, does anyone know of a good nkro keyboard
that's small? I want something to lay on top of my dell xps 13 while I use it
that's nkro.

------
arvinsim
I am more interested in the workflow of using one separate keyboard for each
hand.

That is probably trivial to setup on conventional keyboards but I wonder if it
is ergonomically better.

~~~
rgoulter
Splitting a keyboard has ergonomic benefits. I don't see that "full keyboard
for each hand" would be an advantage. One of the more popular split keyboards
is the Corne Keyboard.
[https://github.com/foostan/crkbd](https://github.com/foostan/crkbd)

There are split keyboards with more keys than the Corne, such as the Lily58.
[https://github.com/kata0510/Lily58](https://github.com/kata0510/Lily58)

------
zadkey
Is there a place a someone could go to buy something like this?

~~~
babo
You mean there is a need for this?

~~~
slim
As a Tunisian (north africa) I write mixed texts containing both arabic and
latin scripts. I have an azerty/arabic keyboard, arabic letters are on the
same keys as latin letters so I constantly need to switch layout when I'm
typing. A ~200ish keys keyboard would be Ideal for me. And i suppose it's the
same for all non-latin keyboards

~~~
dsr_
Have you considered having two keyboards plugged in at the same time, and
switching between them according to your needs?

~~~
JdeBP
You haven't tried this yourself.

I have.

Keyboard maps are on the host, not on the keyboard. Engravings on the keytops
are meaningless and are not what determine how a key is understood. A (for
example) U.K. 105-key keyboard and a French 105-key keyboard just look like
_two 105-key keyboards with all the same keys_ to the host.

Several common operating systems just combine all keyboard input from multiple
plugged-in keyboards into one giant "union" keyboard and apply a single
keyboard map to it.

I've been working on Linux/BSD software that allows individual different
keyboard maps per keyboard, for my user-space virtual terminal system. It's
achievable, but I've not encountered anyone else who has seriously attempted
to make such a thing work, in the general case where arbitrary USB keyboards
can be plugged in and out at runtime.

~~~
dsr_
You're right, I haven't tried this. But my (unmentioned) approach was going to
include using at least one fully programmable keyboard -- QMK or similar -- to
send precisely the keycodes wanted.

~~~
JdeBP
It doesn't work that way. The USB HID usages (and PS/2 scancodes) are the
same. There is one usage for the key at (say) D01, and the keyboard doesn't
know or control whether it is "Q" or "A" or something else entirely. You
cannot switch layouts on the keyboard, because the maps are _on the host_.
Multiple keyboards with D01 engraved with different symbols will not actually
vary anything, and all send _the same thing_ across the wire.

------
nfoz
I'd love to try a keyboard where the keys are a bit wider and with a bit more
space between them than normal. Probably bad but still, I'd like to try.

~~~
dyingkneepad
I have one where some keys are wider, and I like it. Microsoft Wireless
Comfort Desktop 5050 (PP4-00001). The only downside is not being mechanical.

------
einpoklum
(shrug) don't see how this is useful honestly. You'd just accidentally mistype
all the time by laying your hand down to rest.

------
a_e_k
Where do you rest your hands when you pause from typing? Or do you have to go
back and forth over the nearer keys all the time?

~~~
WesolyKubeczek
Your hands don’t rest until you die.

------
tanseydavid
What I need to know is: __can I fit the whole thing into a SCRABBLE box __for
transport? Asking for a friend.

------
stiglitz
Loving the incomplete set of kana keys.

------
dsr_
It's ortho, but it isn't split. And clearly it needs to be split.

For ergonomics.

~~~
TurplePurtle
Check again :) (Some of the pictures lower in the page show it's actually
split)

------
parched
450 keys but no spacebar?

------
rixtox
It's obviously for emacs users.

------
mtVessel
What was it that Dr. Malcolm said?

~~~
EForEndeavour
Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they _could_ , they
didn't stop to think if they _should_.

