
Tesla Model S Options and Pricing - pbreit
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/options
======
kylecordes
I wonder why they've chosen to increase their costs and mfg complexity by
offering all those options; does anyone one really want (for example) a car at
this price range with the "base" seats? Is it really worthwhile to have (and
support) _3_ battery options? 5 charging options? It is worth the complexity,
testing, etc. to support both the lesser and better tires, on a car in this
price range? Worth building it with two kinds of headlights? Two stereos?

I wish they were taking more cues from Apple and fewer from GM. Make the car
is just a few price points, and no "not so awesome" variations at all. Spend
that time/complexity/cost budget on building more cars and signing up more
dealers.

~~~
hop
The upgrades have marginal cost to Tesla and a lot of value to the customer.
The Model S Performance adds a bigger battery, better inverter, leather, and
active suspension - imagine this costs Tesla about $5k and they can double the
price of the car.

~~~
slykat
Are marginal costs enough to see the impact of offering multiple options? My
concern is that by having so many battery & other options, Tesla is probably
requiring different manufacturing processes, different equipment, which can
dramatically affect costs (esp. fixed costs). To put it more simply, if you
offered only 1 option, you manufacture at scale and can easily bring down unit
costs. However, if you are offering, say 3 options that means you split your
scale by 1/3 and its harder to bring unit costs.

This wouldn't be an issue if the parts being built were commodity items but I
assume a lot of the parts for Tesla are quite customized / niche. To put it
another way, I remember reading that for some American manufacturers it was
actually more costly to produce manual cars since demand is so low in the US
and assembling them would require a separate line which would reduce
efficiency.

However I really don't know anything about manufacturing cars. Anyone with
auto industry experience want to chime in?

~~~
yardie
_Tesla is probably requiring different manufacturing processes, different
equipment, which can dramatically affect costs (esp. fixed costs)._

What manufacturing process are you speaking of? It's a single chassis and
single production line. All the parts are bolted on the same way in the same
places.

I've worked in a radio factory and it is a highly synchronized machine. All
the parts arrive in the right place at the right time. For build cost it only
adds a marginal amount which Tesla appears to be recouping.

 _to produce manual cars since demand is so low in the US and assembling them
would require a separate line which would reduce efficiency._

This information is probably out of date. Most cars today are FWD. The gearbox
is mated to the engine block and then dropped onto the chassis. They only have
to select the proper linkages and shifter. It might be 1:10 US cars that are
manual but I don't think it needs a separate line for this.

~~~
slykat
Makes sense - good to know. So basically there are no scale advantages with
going with one battery type instead of 3?

------
moxiemk1
One of the reasons Tesla is better positioned than other makers to do well in
electric cars is how they've designed the Model S. It's from the ground up
designed with being electrified. The consequences of how they can lay out the
architecture of the car is _awesome_. This isn't some sedan with a battery
pack thrown in it, it's a sedan _designed around having one_.

Tesla might still be in a bit of a rocky position, but if this
succeeds...watch out.

~~~
tintin
I still think it won't succeed. Electric cars have been build since 1904. But
range have always been a problem. Ofcourse charging your car becomes quicker.
But I still think a lot of people won't buy an electric car because they are
afraid of not getting home.

~~~
pedrolll
Yes it's a problem when there are not enough charging stations around. In some
countries the network is quite well spread already but I guess not in the U.S.
so far. Once that gets taken care of, I don't see any reasons for people not
buying electric cars.

~~~
arethuza
"I don't see any reasons for people not buying electric cars."

Almost all of my car journeys are from Edinburgh to various random locations
in the Scottish Highlands to go skiing/cycling/walking - usually from 200 to
400 miles for the round trip - often parking in fairly remote spots. I just
don't see an electric car being a sensible choice for our family any time
soon.

~~~
showerst
You're not the market for this car.

Right now that market is upper-class commuters, who mostly go < 50 miles round
trip and would likely use it as a second (or third) car.

I could see a decent market for these things from people who live in the US in
VA/MD and commute into and out of DC, for instance. It's not a long distance,
but it's a very slow trip because of traffic, and there's a culture of status-
symbol cars.

------
martythemaniak
I saw and sat in the Model S on its tour stop in my city and quite frankly,
this is the car of the future. In 10 years, all sedans will have the same
design features you see on the Tesla right now. Two of the most notable ones:

1\. The moving part of the car is essentially one large skateboard (battery,
motor and control systems all in there), leaving room for an incredibly
spacious interior with two trunks.

2\. Touch screen replaces all buttons, regular screen replaces dash.

~~~
rdl
Having tactile feedback would be preferable, I think, to a touchscreen with
soft buttons. Normally, I'm reaching and not really looking at the screen when
I mess with the nav/climate control/audio in my Audi; it's not a great UI, but
better than reaching down to a big touchscreen.

What I think would be best is a gesture-based display. Touch anywhere on the
screen, make a squiggle in some kind of pattern -- it's all relative vs.
absolute.

 _Good_ voice recognition would also work, but I haven't seen this yet in a
car.

~~~
r00fus
> Having tactile feedback would be preferable, I think, to a touchscreen with
> soft buttons

The 2004 Prius (and many other cars after that) has proven that touchscreens
are viable for key functions... certain functions _are not accessible_ in any
other way (e.g.: climate control)... and touchscreen failures are not widely
reported as a problem.

~~~
joshu
I have an older Lexus that is basically the same platform as that. It's great
- I've never driven anything that has as painless a UI.

I spent the weekend with a Ferrari and it was pretty unreal how hard it was to
use (you can't change the radio station without turning off the nav display,
etc.)

~~~
rdl
Lambo (well, or Audi R8) is even worse; until I think 2012 MY, you got the
same crappy RNS-E of a 2001 Audi A3, not even the Audi MMI from the A6.

------
fieldforceapp
As an investor, I'm long TSLA & as a human I have to be bullish on this
company. It's easy to root for them, but I really hope they get the roll-out
of the Model S correct & focus on the customer, not the tech, damn it.

For those of you old enough to understand the joke, I don't think Elon will be
trying to buy Cocaine anytime soon, but I'm worried about the next phase
_after_ the first round of sales to the enthusiasts like... us.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeLorean_Motor_Company>

In the hopes that Elon and the boys are paying attention, some things that
bugged me from the plans so far & from the "butt test" I gave the Model S:

1\. The options look great and I'm excited, but help me complete these
sentence... "I've owned the Model S now for more than a year and I'm never
worried about getting serviced because Tesla Co. will..." what?

2\. Tell my mother, or anyone not in your core market, why they need this car
& what role it plays in their life vs. buying a gas powered (or for extra
points a Hybrid) car.

3\. Tell them exactly what's required to put a charger in their garage and how
much that will cost; better yet, help them do it (for a fee!) and partner with
some other Green tech folks to make a house call and split the costs -- solar
panel resellers for example?

4\. Nit picking, but man was that 17-inch screen big! Couldn't we save some
money a go with a 12-inch and a couple of physical (user programmable) buttons
instead?

5\. Listen, I'm a large man, where's my "oh shit handle?"
[http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=oh%20shit%20h...](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=oh%20shit%20handle)

(And in case you missed it, I'm long TSLA & rooting for you all the way!!)

~~~
jonknee
> 4\. Nit picking, but man was that 17-inch screen big! Couldn't we save some
> money a go with a 12-inch and a couple of physical (user programmable)
> buttons instead?

A 17" screen is a very cheap component. Adding physical buttons wouldn't save
much, if anything. When you're making a $60-90k car, a $100 screen isn't going
to change the final price.

[http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE...](http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007617%20600030610&IsNodeId=1&name=17%22)

~~~
joezydeco
That $100 LCD isn't automotive grade, nor will it hold up to federal safety
standards or intense daylight visibility. Adding a 17" pro-cap screen on top
is not a cheap proposition either.

------
rdl
I'm really curious what the effective cost per mile to operate these will be,
especially for high duty cycle operations. Assuming it works out, If I were an
Uber driver, I'd probably get one (or two) -- the Tesla halo factor would get
you some marketing/pricing benefit, and if it is lower cost to operate, then
win/win. 300 miles in a day may or may not work for a livery service, although
presumably the driver could be charging the vehicle while waiting.

If I had $100k for a new car right now, the Performance Signature would
absolutely be my pick; it's higher social status (and more fun) than any other
car I can think of.

------
nobody_nowhere
Wow, 4.4 0-60 is really fast for such a big car. Worth the extra $$ for the
bigger battery to win a few drag races.

The styling seems like a melange of Aston Martin, Jag, and Maserati -- too bad
it's not something truly distinctive, but it still seems like a lot of car.

~~~
ericd
As someone who has desired each of a Maserati, a Jag, and an Aston Martin in
the past, I really am not complaining. Especially since this is cheaper than
each of those.

And yeah, the performance package puts this in pretty absurd company. Last
model M5, had similar 0-60 numbers, I believe.

~~~
joshu
An M5's handling would probably spank the Model S.

Sadly, Maserati/Jag/Aston aren't that fast. I used to want a Vantage V8 but
then I drove one.

~~~
ericd
The early reviews of Model S handling and ride were very favorable, and it
makes sense that they would be due to its very even weight and low center of
gravity. I don't know if it's in the same class, though.

I just really, really like how those other cars look. Recent Astons and
Maseratis more, personally. Top Gear makes the DB9 look plenty fast.

~~~
joshu
I love the look of the Vantage V8. It is the prettiest car ever. But the same
dollars of a Porsche or BMW will get so much more driving fun, unfortunately.

The car club has a DB9 that I could take out but others have said it is sorta
lexusy so I haven't bothered.

------
PedroCandeias
This is what a car manufacturer's website should look like in 2012. I'm tired
of looking at flash "loading" screens and 12px type. This looks like a
startup's site, in a good way.

------
tomkinstinch
Does anyone know if they have taken cold climates into consideration? ("They"
being Tesla and other EV makers)

Will the performance of the battery pack degrade significantly if the
temperature is below freezing?

(Tesla:) Are the self-retracting door handles likely to get stuck in the
closed position due to snowstorm ice?

In a car with an ICE, cabin heat is waste heat from the engine. In an electric
car, will maintaining a comfortable cabin temperature significantly reduce the
range of the vehicle?

~~~
ahelwer
This is important. It seems to be a widely-held belief here in Canada that
electric cars are rubbish in the winter. There might be a PR battle that needs
winning.

------
ricksta
I hope they have enough margin on those cars to keep making them. Automotive
business is a tough business with fairly high margin. The BOM for an EV is
much higher than regular cars and it looks like Tesla is running on quite a
low margin to give those pricing.

~~~
jzoidberg
You are kidding right? - EV drive trains are much simpler and have a order of
magnitude fewer parts than ICE vehicles or hybrids.

~~~
dangrossman
I've read pricing on EV lithium ion battery packs is at around $450/kWh...
that'd put it between $18,000 and $38,250 depending on which model you buy.
It's definitely the largest cost component of the car.

~~~
droithomme
Yes, the batteries are very expensive. Doubling the battery capacity adds
$20,000 to the cost of the car. Most likely the batteries will have a 5 year
lifespan, so the amortized operating costs of the batteries may be around
$20,000/5 = $4,000 per year. There's also the issue of the environmental costs
of the manufacture and of the disposal. These factors are seldom mentioned or
discussion tolerated these days, buried under talk of going green and the low
cost of the electricity to recharge.

~~~
cshesse
They have an 8 year warranty, so hopefully they will last at least that long.

------
joejohnson
Ah, I want one. 50k for the cheapest model doesn't seem that crazy either. I
would want to hear some reviews of the 17" touch screen and what kinds of
applications you can run on it.

~~~
ams6110
$50K is IMHO an _insane_ amount of money to spend on a car. I haven't spent
more than $9,000 on any car I've bought in the last 15 years.

Of course if you have the money and want to spend it that way, I have no
objection. I might be there in 5 years to take it off your hands after you've
financed the depreciation, depending on how they hold up in real world use.

~~~
wtallis
_You_ may have been able to get by with never spending more than $9k on a car,
but _somebody_ has to buy the car when it is new. Don't call those people
insane when you depend on them to subsidise your vehicle purchases.

~~~
maxerickson
It's also unfair to imply a subsidy. Without a market of buyers the seller
would end up continuing to use the vehicle or writing off even more of the
cost.

------
tsuraan
That touchscreen definitely concerns me. I used to drive a Saab 900, and my
favorite feature was this big "black panel" button that shut off all interior
lights save the speedometer (when the fuel hit 1/4 tank, that backlight also
turned on). Can anybody who's driven the S say whether it's possible to shut
off the panel? I love the car, but having this huge glowing monstrosity right
in the corner of my eye would just ruin night driving for me.

~~~
spung
Check out this link, it shows a day/night mode

<http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/interior>

~~~
andos
Wow. For such a curvaceous exterior, what an ugly dashboard. The interior is
probably still being designed so I honestly hope that, besides providing some
physical buttons, the final dashboard looks nothing like that.

------
antimora
Prices are "After $7,500 Federal"

------
sakai
Is the only substantive difference between the Performance and Signature
Performance option that you get white leather and red paint!? It doesn't look
the extra options add up to the price difference. What am I missing?

Disclaimer: I only skimmed the price list, I didn't add up all the numbers.

~~~
Arelius
You also get it a lot sooner.

~~~
sakai
Ah ha!

------
cbrauchli
Looks awesome. Wish I could afford it.

Here's an idea, maybe someone could tell me if it's feasible. One of the
annoying things about electric cars is the relatively long charge time, which,
for day trips, is solved by charging at home overnight. However, a mistake
such as forgetting to plug in one night could have dire results the next day.
What about having a charging pad for people with garages? When they get home
they park the car where the pad is and it starts charging automatically over
the air. What are the disadvantages? Efficiency? Price?

~~~
corin_
Public charging spots will happen if/when popularity of electric cars takes
off. It already has happened in some places, for example Oxford in the UK -
[http://www.oxfordjournal.co.uk/news/travel/2699-city-gets-
mo...](http://www.oxfordjournal.co.uk/news/travel/2699-city-gets-more-
than-20-electric-car-charging-points) (I believe there's at least a few more
since that article was written, could be wrong). Due to not having the same
requirements as petrol stations (namely being able to store huge amounts of
flammable liquid), there's no reason for them to be located there, hence their
being in car parks in Oxford.

~~~
smiler
I think Tesla have already started this. At the Santana Row mall in San Jose,
they have dedicated electric car charger parking spots and you will often see
a couple of Tesla's parked up.

------
Kilimanjaro
Look all Tesla Motors has accomplished in less than ten years. I bet by 2020
supercharging in 5 mins and reaching 500 miles will be common, most of us will
be driving electric cars and by 2050 the transition will be complete in the
whole world.

~~~
ams6110
Stop and think about charging an 85 kWH battery pack in 5 minutes. Assuming
80% charging efficiency (no idea if that's what it is, just a guess) you will
need about 100 kWH * 60/5 = 1200 kW. 1.2 million Watts draw for 5 minutes.
5,000 Amps at 240volts. Totally impossible with our current grid and
generating capacity.

------
ck2
While I could never afford one, I find this kind of progress exciting for the
world.

Really looking forward to buying my first used electric car in a decade (and
rebuilding the battery pack).

------
durandal1
You'd have to close your yes and _really_ want an electric car to get one of
these. You get a whole lot of dinosaur-driven car for the same price, any
category.

~~~
polshaw
I don't know. The base model looks not far off being competitively priced in
relation to the luxury car market, with something like a 3-series (the low end
of luxury) costing at least $40k. There are obviously going to be good savings
cf. fuel, and an 80 mile return trip should cover 90% of most peoples
journeys. Again, most people will have access to a second car too.

For all this to be true however, it does need to prove it is a luxury _car_.
The external styling looks pretty good, but it needs a quality interior and
handling too.

~~~
durandal1
I completely agree - my initial impression is that it isn't up to par with
something like the 3-series, but maybe I should wait until I actually try it
in person.

------
andrewfelix
Not sure about the interior, but I wouldn't mind that GPS
<http://cl.ly/3s2V0H2w3p0I2B1d2q21>

------
shawnjan8
Anyone know when/if this car is coming to Canada? I assume not many car repair
shops are going to be able to deal with one of these bad boys.

------
tsalfie
Am I missing something or is this a typo: "Premium electric sedan with seating
for up to seven"? I could see seating six, but seven?

~~~
orky56
Basically in the trunk area you can have rear-facing seats which can easily
fold flat. 7 is 2 in the front, 3 in the middle, and 2 in the back.

------
callmeed
Curious, if I get a Model S and do my standard road trips to SF/LA, is there a
list of available charging stations up/down the 101?

------
antifuchs
Wow, these almost make me wish I liked driving cars. Hope one of the next
revisions comes as a self-driving car (-:

------
draggnar
it is hard not to root for tesla here. they are breaking new ground. i love
performance cars, and would love to keep a gas powered sports car in the
garage, but for popping around town this seems more practical. the bar of
expectations is very high, i hope they break past it.

------
sandis
I find it somehow ironic that there's a half-empty battery pictured on the
features page, when electric car battery life is probably the top thing people
are skeptical about – <http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features>

~~~
corin_
I like to think most people are smart enough to realise that no matter how
much energy a battery might hold, when you've used half of it, the battery
will be half empty. It's not like they're going to look at that tiny picture
and think "well my gas tank never got half empty!"

------
redcircle
How much does it weigh? I didn't see its mass listed anywhere.

------
aymeric
Why is this on the front page of HN?

What is so special about this car?

~~~
_delirium
Elon Musk, Tesla's founder, is well-known in tech circles from PayPal; that,
combined with the new-tech angle and the Bay Area location, has gotten Tesla
into the Silicon Valley press circuit.

~~~
aymeric
Thanks for answering instead of downvoting. This is the answer I was after.

------
chedigitz
Love Tesla and the Model S is short of amazing, just wish more manufactures
would adopt apple's product line mantra, simplicity.

Way to many options to choose from, make it easy guys.

~~~
jonknee
Apple has a ton of SKUs. The iPad 2 alone is offered in 18 variations
(White/Black, 3G/Wifi, CDMA/GSM, 16/32/64GB). Want a MacBook? There are nine
models to choose from (4 Airs and 5 Pros) and each come with a bunch of
customizations (CPU, RAM, HD, accesseries, etc).

~~~
pat2man
But Apple tends to show off 1 or two models and let you choose the options
yourself. Tesla should just focus on two models and leave the options below
the fold.

~~~
jonknee
They do... This is the "Options" page. Here's the Model S homepage:

<http://www.teslamotors.com/models>

Apple has gnarly comparison pages too:

<http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/specs-compare.html>

------
eps
So how does one charge these things?

------
ww520
I saw the roadster just the other week in the parking lot of Alice's Cafe.
Very nice looking machine.

------
wavephorm
Ugh.. why a large size sedan?? Anyone who buys one of these thinking they're
saving the Earth suffers from cognitive dissonance.

This car is not the future. We really should all be driving small, super-
efficient, "SmartCar" sized electric golf-cart cars. They should be under
$10,000, have 200+ mi range. A large luxury sedan built for the rich is not
going to make one lick of difference in terms of pollution or fossil fuel
conservation.

~~~
kulinsj
I'd argue that this is a good way to idealize the concept of electric cars in
the eyes of society. Obviously not everyone will have the cash to spring for a
Model S, but as time goes on and production gets more efficient, more "for-
the-masses" models will arise and will permeate down the financial ranks. IMO
Tesla is starting off on the right foot; showing what electric can do and
dressing it up real nice. You're right that this model specifically will do
little to save the Earth, but it's a step in the right direction; setting the
stage for electric to become socially desirable.

------
gcb
So, you can't use the recharger network if you don't buy the most expensive
models?

~~~
panacea
I don't think they actually intend to ship any of the less expensive models.

------
njharman
4 doors makes me sad.

------
ansy
Great looking car. But what's with all the bullshit vanity stats like kWh? Is
this the new MHz of the electric car age? A meaningless number that consumers
mistakenly use to quantify purchases for the next century? Some things never
change. Just tell me how far the damn thing drives and I'll dig into the
details if I'm really interested.

NB: I realize Tesla buries the actual range in the middle of the page. I'm
just pointing out kWh at best meaningless without taking the entire car into
consideration and at worst deliberately misleading consumers a la MHz and
"megapixels."

What consumers understand: Range in miles, top speed in mph, acceleration (why
don't they illustrate this with a graph instead of "0-60?"). What consumers
can only vaguely understand: kWh, horsepower, CC of engine, torque.

~~~
pkulak
How is that meaningless? It's what determines a large portion of the price of
the car and it's range. You don't think it's helpful to know that the Leaf has
a 24 kwh battery and the low end Tesla has 40? I'd say the range "estimates"
are the useless number. The range is 90% determined by the battery capacity.
The range estimates are whatever number marketing pulls out of its ass. This
is nothing like megapixels and megahertz.

~~~
ansy
Yes. It is meaningless to know the Leaf has a 24 kWh battery and the Tesla has
40 kWh. Completely and utterly useless.

Range is determined by engine, weight, aerodynamics, and, yes, battery. The
Leaf could, hypothetically, weigh half as much as the Tesla Roadster S, have a
better coefficient of friction, a smaller engine, and get BETTER range with a
smaller battery.

It's like telling people how big the gas tank is on a car. There's a hell of a
lot more you need to know to figure out the range. To give an extreme example,
just because my passenger van has a 30 gallon tank and my civic has a 11
gallon tank doesn't mean the van is going to win an endurance race.

Edit: Another concrete example, the Volkswagen 1L. It has a 1.7 gallon gas
tank and gets a 400 mile range. [1] Your average Toyota might have a 50 mile
range on the same amount of gas.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car>

~~~
dhbanes
Yeah, but what if I'm buying a Tesla Model S... so all else is held equal? I
don't understand how you don't see this as useful information when comparing
options within a single line of vehicles.

