
Kitchen Knives: The New Bling (2013) [pdf] - bookofjoe
https://www.oxfordsymposium.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Hertzmann.pdf
======
nordsieck
What's truly amazing to me is the low cost of truly high quality kitchen
knives available today.

Ikea sells a 3 knife set for $30[1] that is made with the exact same steel as
high end German knife brands - x50crmov15.

IMO, the real problem with kitchen knives in most homes is they are woefully
under-sharpened. A budget knife that's sharpened once or twice a month will
completely outperform the most expensive knife that's never sharpened.

___

1\. [https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/ikea-365-3-piece-knife-
set-9034...](https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/ikea-365-3-piece-knife-
set-90341170/)

~~~
tptacek
Your overall point is well taken, but X50CrMoV15 is commodity stainless steel.
Those German knives use it because people leave their knives out wet on their
counters, not because it's amazing at cutting.

The worst is Misen, though, which brags about AUS8 steel as if it were Blue
Paper Steel and not generic tool steel.

~~~
qchris
I think this observation is very much on point. Imho, there's a bit of what
amounts to fetishism in the knife-making community about steels. Truthfully,
the primary differences should be in fit, finish, and balance for a knife.
It's just as possible to put a fine edge on the cheapest steel in the world as
as it is an expensive tool steel like 440C. Jay Fisher, a custom knife-maker,
likes to makes the point that a ceramic flint-knapper can put an edge on a
stone that will scare any knifemaker alive, as long as the edge doesn't
accidentally touch anything too solid and chip.

An AUS8 blade hits a nice balance between corrosion resistance, end-user
servicing, decent maximum hardness, and manufacturability, though focusing on
"our steel is special" seems to sell blades. Plus, I think it's worth noting
that if most manufacturers were to make blades out of more expensive knife
making steel like S3OV, not only would they likely corrode, people would be
close to incapable of properly caring for those blades properly anyway. It's
not an easy task, especially for someone who is only using the knife to
achieve their primary goal: cooking.

~~~
bartread
I don't get the steel fetishism either, and with kitchen knives it's clearly
very much about environment: your fancy-pants pocket knife steel may not do
well in an environment where it's sat around damp and with food residue on it
for hours or days, shoved into a dishwasher, or whatever.

I'm not mad on pocketknives, but I've got a small handful in 440C, a couple in
AUS-8, and then one in S35VN. The latter used to be considered fairly high end
as a blade steel but now appears to be increasingly commonplace in even
relatively inexpensive knives.

From a practical standpoint, and for my use cases, there's no significant
difference between any of these, except that the S35VN is harder to sharpen.

I have no complaints with edge retention or sharpness for any of the 440C or
AUS-8 knives I own even though they're looked down on as blade steels by the
knife community and, in fact, my favourite pocketknife for everyday and DIY
use is the very inexpensive Ontario Rat #1 in AUS-8. It fits my hand well, is
a great cutting tool, and is incredibly easy to sharpen and maintain.

------
0xff00ffee
And copper pots!

Funny thing this article doesn't really talk about REALLY expensive knives.
Just "Mall Fancy" (gatekeeper's delight: if you can buy it in a mall, it's not
'real' bling.) There's a custom knife store I visited in Portland last year
that goes up to $3k for handmade knives.

Expensive knives are silly. $49 Victorinox is probably one of the best knives
out there unless you're a sushi chef according to just about every review. I
have one, it's great. Better than my Shyun for the price and easier to put on
edge on.

But don't take my anecdote for it: go talk to a chef and ask what kind of
knives they use. Know what the answer will be? In most restaurants they are
from Sysco. Source: friends that work back of the house.

~~~
tptacek
The Victorinox Fibrox has been a popular pick (and rhetorical tool for
debunking Veblen knives) for years because Cooks Illustrated championed it,
but it underperforms in tests and, in particular, has an apparently bad
factory edge --- you could correct that, but I doubt many owners really do.

I think the Fibrox still works as a rhetorical tool. It's true that most
people would be just as happy with a $50 Fibrox as they would be with an
expensive Shun. But it's not the case that the Fibrox holds up well in serious
tests against other knives.

The flip side of professional kitchens getting their knives from services is
that they're also constantly refreshed with new sharp blades (the service
takes the dulled blades back and replaces them with new ones), which is
something that isn't true for home cooks. I wouldn't read too much into that.

(I have a Mac MBK-85; it's great. Just get a Mac.)

~~~
prpl
The fibrox is _fine_ , but a single 8" Shun chef's knife is near the price of
an MBK-85 for a not-dissimilar level of performance.

I have a Fibrox santoku, Shun 7" Chef's knife (VG-10), Ohishi 270mm (VG-5),
and some of the Ikea 365 knives (e.g. 6" chef's knife), as well as some
K-Sabatier. For the money, the Ikea 365 knives outperform the Fibrox - they
hold the edge much better. The K-Sabatier are better than the fibrox for not
too much more money (and they're pretty classic). The Ohishi was the best
value and is my favorite knife but it's a bit on the large side. I also have a
few other random knives (arcos ham knife, dexter russel boning knife, mac
bread knife)

I recommend the Ikea ones to most people. They are super cheap, sharp, and
hold their edge pretty good. If they wanted an upgrade pick, I'd recommend an
Ohishi or similar (there's a few similar ones online that are high quality),
but I don't think buying a Shun isn't a terrible proposition - they are
readily available in most markets and good quality. Buying a knife block isn't
recommended though.

Relatedly - I usually buy family members getting married decent set for a gift
too - and the smaller sets of Victorinox are usually nice.

~~~
dunham
About a decade ago I looked into this. I had a Shun Santoku (VG10), but my
brother wanted to get me a nice knife as a wedding gift. I did a little
research on the knife forums (very interesting world, I could see spending a
lot of money on a combination of metallurgical tech and art if you get sucked
into that).

Exotic stainless (e.g. powdered steel) sounded like it would be challenging
for an amateur to sharpen, and I wasn't sure I could be trusted to take proper
care of a carbon blade, so I hedged and went with a semi-stainless (SKD) 240mm
Yoshikane wa-Gyuto. I kinda wish it had a little more belly, but it's sharp,
cuts well, and is easy to sharpen.

------
Zak
I have a single high-end kitchen knife, a Masakage Mizu gyuto. At under $200,
it's not the height of bling, but still an order of magnitude above the
cheapest thing that could possibly work. I bought it after handling almost
everything in a shop specializing in Japanese knives, and I selected it
largely based on its feel and balance.

It is much better at cutting things than any other kitchen knife I've used
(yes, most were properly sharpened), though compared to German knives around
$100, its advantage for me as a home cook is mostly that it feels good to cut
with, not that I couldn't do all the same things with a cheaper, lower-
performing knife. The difference in performance comes from the blade stock
being thinner, the grind being convex instead of flat, and the blade being
thinner immediately behind the sharpened edge.

There are downsides: the steel is not stainless, and being much harder than a
typical German knife makes it prone to chip if it accidentally contacts
something hard. Stainless options with similar characteristics exist, but it's
widely believed that they can't get quite as sharp.

------
thedance
I was never much of a believer in knives until I lost some dexterity in my
right hand and to keep from sticking my fingers under my old chef's knife I
went down to a japanese knife shop and bought a knife so tall that I couldn't
possibly stick my fingertip under the blade. I think it was about $200. It was
and remains absurdly sharp. It is as sharp if I use it for three meals a day
for a year as my Global was if I frequently and conscientiously honed it. It
really makes a big difference if instead of crushing a sushi roll, you
actually manage to cut it. I'm a believer now, just my own labor savings alone
was worth the price. Was I supposed to not buy it just because it has a
somewhat fancy appearance?

------
digitalsushi
I'm not a knife guy and I'm not a foodie, but I did splurge on a knife made by
the almazan kitchen guys on youtube - it's a knife but it's very tall. It's
over twice as tall as a regular chef's knife but the same length, and I use it
as a scraper, and to transfer bits across the kitchen to the stove, and just
generally love the hand feel of it. I haven't been able to find this shape
anywhere else. It's almost like a clever, but it's thin, has a nice rocking
motion, and fits my hand perfectly. It's not even that great of a knife, it's
hard to keep it super sharp, but it's still my favorite knife in the kitchen.

~~~
Sowas
That sounds like a Chinese knife (often wrongly called cleaver - it's not
meant for chopping).

[https://www.seriouseats.com/2019/12/chinese-cleaver-
kitchen-...](https://www.seriouseats.com/2019/12/chinese-cleaver-kitchen-
knife.html)

------
steve_adams_86
I've been using budget Victorinox for about 15 years, and they're still going
strong. If you sharpen them regularly, use a steel, and don't do anything too
crazy with them... Most modern knives will do an excellent job in the kitchen.
The key is finding the ones that feel good in your hand, I think.

~~~
paulie_a
I have a few of the victorianox lineup and they are great! I was told by
numerous people that if you are not going to spend 250+ don't bother and get a
victorianox.

I love the set I have.

------
gbronner
I take issue with his characterization of wedding knives as bling. For many
younger couples, they replace a collection of stamped knives and yard sale
finds, so they are a qualitative upgrade. They often get used a lot, as
families cook more than singles, so they are probably one of the more
intensively used gifts.

Finally, they act as a commitment device and a symbol of being married -
singles and unmarried people rarely have a matching knife set. Sort of like
wedding rings, which aren't usually purchased for their own blinginess, but as
a symbol.

Over the course of a 20000 day marriage, an extra 200$ isn't going to make
much of a difference

------
wayneftw
I'm no culinary artist but I got a set of Kitchen Aid brushed stainless steel
knives that have served us well. I love the built-in sharpener that comes as
part of the wood block.

Not only do they look nice, but the fact that they have no separate material
for the handles (they are 100% metal) means that they won't be breaking or
getting stained and we can throw them in the dish washer if we want.

[https://www.amazon.com/KitchenAid-KKFSS14BO-Classic-
Brushed-...](https://www.amazon.com/KitchenAid-KKFSS14BO-Classic-Brushed-
Stainless/dp/B01DKR4KJ6)

------
m0zg
FWIW, my wife and I cook a lot, and the best knives we've found so far are
Victorinox knives from Amazon. These replaced a much more expensive set that
would get dull within a week and was otherwise unremarkable. They are
stainless, not too heavy, and they keep their edge really well. $85 for a set
of 3, although I recommend getting their santoku as well. Touch them up with
$10 Accursharp sharpener every now and then, and you can't really do much
better. Although they certainly aren't a showpiece - just a practical, high
quality knife set.

------
kragen
My favorite three kitchen knives are a stainless paring knife with a sheath
they gave me for speaking at PyCon Argentina a few years ago, a cheap cubic
zirconia paring knife I had to buy a diamond hone to resharpen after I dropped
it and broke the tip off, and a scabby-looking French-style full-sized kitchen
knife I found buried in the garden and resharpened with concrete and broken
ceramic. It's a hardened carbon steel and holds an edge better than the
stainless knife.

~~~
teddyh
> _full-sized kitchen knife I found buried in the garden_

Um… Maybe my imagination is running away with me, but I struggle to find a
sensible reason for burying a large knife in the garden.

~~~
kragen
I suspect the previous owner had a knife she didn't know how to sharpen and
wanted to supplement the iron in the soil for the nasturtiums.

~~~
quelltext
Or it was a murder weapon.

~~~
kragen
Seems a lot less likely. She's a well-known actress; I doubt she ever killed
anyone, even in self-defense. There just aren't enough murders around here to
make it a reasonable guess.

~~~
quelltext
Yeah, don't think it's a given (and you have more context to determine that).
It's just what comes to mind when hearing/reading about a buried knife (i.e.
something you don't typically bury & could be evidence in a crime case).

------
munchbunny
While I definitely see the effects of that phenomenon, such as someone I know
splurging on a beautiful Damascus steel knife. Then I read through to the
bottom and turns out that I was just as much part of this phenomenon with my
$100 Wusthof knife.

However, in defense of my claim that it's not _just_ bling, it's my daily
workhorse knife for cooking at home, and it's the only chef's knife I own. It
sees more use than any other knife I own. That said, I definitely stake some
claim of my identity in my choice of brand and the knife's appearance, so it's
definitely not purely functional.

