
Debtors in China Shamed on Highway Billboard Featuring Their Faces and Names - anw
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2144690/chinese-debtors-shamed-broadcast-names-and-faces-giant-screens
======
seanmcdirmid
This is at least better than the revenge porn shaming scheme (“naked loan”)
that went around a few years ago. [https://medium.com/@arcbering/naked-loan-a-
loan-for-porn-sch...](https://medium.com/@arcbering/naked-loan-a-loan-for-
porn-scheme-went-viral-in-china-e00b667a468c)
[https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20161031/10125635924/chine...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20161031/10125635924/chinese-
innovation-nude-photo-loan-platform-adds-uber-style-debt-collectors-
feature.shtml) [https://www.whatsonweibo.com/nude-pics-naked-loan-
controvers...](https://www.whatsonweibo.com/nude-pics-naked-loan-
controversial-online-loaning-china/)

~~~
jacquesm
Wow, that's bad. And judging by the dates on some of those articles this is
not just something that was happening a few years ago. It looks like the law
came down on this mid last year.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
It felt like a few years ago to me at least :). The western press can be
really delayed in reporting on these things.

------
rajacombinator
Wow ... if you scroll down (on mobile) and keep reading the articles there,
it’s just an endless list of “really bad stuff happening in China.” To the
extent that I had to look up whether SCMP is some kind of American propaganda
outfit. And ... from what I can tell it seems to be heavily influenced by the
Chinese govt. Can someone with more insight offer a quick rundown of how SCMP
fits into Chinese media?

~~~
Bucephalus355
SCMP is a prestigious newspaper and the “newspaper of record” for Hong Kong.

However, recently it was bought out by Alibaba, which is of course a Chinese
company. The articles still don’t seem that much pro-Chinese, however this
does have some sinister overtones for the future, and fits in well with the
Chinese strategy of steady expansion / soft subtle influence of foreign govs
and institutes.

~~~
brisance
SCMP has hired a few former Straits Times journalists with an ax to grind with
Singapore, and the articles they churn out have a decidedly anti-Singapore,
pro-China bias. The messaging became more strident ever since it got bought by
Alibaba.

------
anvandare
The Master said: "If the people be led by laws, and uniformity sought to be
given them by punishments, they will try to avoid the punishment, but have no
sense of shame. If they be led by virtue, and uniformity sought to be given
them by the rules of propriety, they will have the sense of shame, and
moreover will become good."

\- Analects of Confucius, book II

~~~
bitL
I am glad western civilization invented internal guilt instead of external
shame.

~~~
HarryHirsch
Internal guilt doesn't work with sociopaths and companies.

~~~
isostatic
It doesn't work for many people who think 'there's no victim', or 'the victim
can afford it'

Lets say you board a train at an unmanned station with no ticket machine.
Nobody checks your ticket. You then get out at a manned station, but can just
walk off.

Do you buy a ticket? Many who don't will think "I don't need to", not "I just
broke the law" or "I just committed a crime"

How about you instead also get off at an unmanned station. How many people
will seek out a way to pay their fare?

You don't have to be a sociopath to not feel guilty.

------
moltar
Shaming works.

In Ontario, Canada DUI offenders must install a Ignition Interlock Program.
Which is basically a breathalyzer that the driver must blow in to start the
car.

And if that is not shameful enough, there’s another shameful add-on: an
red/amber light the offender must install on the front bumper, dead center.
The light activates if you fail the the test after you were driving for a bit.

But the light doesn’t need to be turned on to shame. It’s very obvious that
it’s there, even when it’s off.

~~~
John_KZ
But this is done through court orders and a due process, correct? On repeated
offenders, for the benefit of themselves too?

What's described in the article isn't the same. You shouldn't let financial
institutions using this kind of coercion at will. You also shouldn't ostracize
those people from society. If they committed a crime, enforce the punishment.
Is it a fine? Jail time? Withholding a portion future wages? Do so. Shaming
has no place in modern society.

The article also mentions they're not allowed to buy train tickets. How are
they going to earn money and repay their debts if they are denied
transportation (amongst "many" other things)? And finally, shouldn't we be
shaming the financial institution for loaning money to individuals without any
legal guarantees and no collateral? Aren't they the ones that should manage
this risk? Aren't they the ones reaping benefits for this?

This is a very dangerous game to play. And I certainly don't like bunching up
those who owe millions and can afford to pay back, and those who owe hundreds
and are probably living in poverty. Keep the shaming for public figures, not
private individuals.

~~~
shaobo
> You shouldn't let financial institutions using this kind of coercion at
> will.

This is done by local courts, not the financial institutions.

And if you read related article on this kind of name and shame tactic, you
find that it is designed for debtors who are capable of repaying their debts
but choose to defy court orders. Hence the travel restrictions are for flights
and high-speed trains, and not regular trains or other public transports.

from [http://uk.businessinsider.com/chinas-tax-blacklist-shames-
de...](http://uk.businessinsider.com/chinas-tax-blacklist-shames-
debtors-2017-12)

"Restrictions are placed on "high-expenditure consumption" and "consumption
not necessary to sustain normal life or businesses" for individual defaulters
as well as the legal representatives and CEOs of companies that default."

~~~
Animats
Now that could work. White-collar offenders in the US could be placed on the
"no-fly list", and denied landing rights for private jets. They could still
drive, take trains, or go by ship.

------
__s
Eventually it'll get to where Philip K Dick had it in Lies Inc, where a drone
announcer will stalk you about, informing everyone around you of your current
finances

------
oicu812
I don't see how this is much different than the deadbeat dad billboards and
public shaming that we use in the U.S. [1]

They get results: "the first billboards were so successful that another round
of the roadside placards are being unveiled this week"

In the deadbeat dad cases the government is working for the best interests of
children and women, but if you extrapolate this to a general law and order
theme, then why not publicly shame all unrepentant debtors? [2]

[1] [https://www.ohio.com/akron/news/billboards-helped-in-
arrest-...](https://www.ohio.com/akron/news/billboards-helped-in-arrest-of-
deadbeat-dads-walsh-says) [2]
[https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/12/politics/deadbeat-dad-
tweets-...](https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/12/politics/deadbeat-dad-tweets-
arizona/)

------
smaddox
I can see this triggering an inflection point in Chinese debt accumulation (if
it hasn't happened already). Considering the insanely high debt to GDP ratio
in China, it looks like they're in for a massive recession.

~~~
chenster
Got source for your claim?

~~~
smaddox
A source for my speculation? No.

A source for the high debt to GDP ratio? A simple Google search would suffice,
but here: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-08/sizing-
up...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-08/sizing-up-china-s-
debt-bubble-bloomberg-economics)

~~~
isostatic
Bloomberg claim 256% debt:gdp ratio, but it's hard to collaberate. China
doesn't appear on Business Insiders list from 2015 [0], which has Japan at
250%ish. Trading economics [1] has China at 48% government debt:gdp

Household debt isn't that bad either, however the grauniad has the answer --
corporate debt is sky-high [2]. It also mentions that by this measure
(Corporate + household + government debt), the U.S. is 331%. It's an
interesting article, albeit from 2 years ago

[0] [http://uk.businessinsider.com/wef-countries-with-highest-
lev...](http://uk.businessinsider.com/wef-countries-with-highest-level-of-
government-debt-vs-gdp-2015-10?IR=T/)

[1] [https://tradingeconomics.com/china/government-debt-to-
gdp](https://tradingeconomics.com/china/government-debt-to-gdp)

[2] [https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/16/chinas-
debt...](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/16/chinas-debt-
is-250-of-gdp-and-could-be-fatal-says-government-expert)

------
chrischen
They also try to shame people for jay walking. Surprised at how shaming works
so well in Asia.

~~~
rahimnathwani
Where in China does this happen?

~~~
chrischen
I saw it on a VICE news episode recently. They showcased these AI/Machine
Learning companies using street cameras to detect jay-walkers and then shame
them by displaying them on a big screen as they are doing it.

------
ThatHNGuy
That would be great if corrupted politicians could be shamed on Billboards too

------
onetimemanytime
does anyone know what's the average or range of interest rates in China? Looks
like banks are getting help from the state to collect. Help, well above and
beyond traditional court /sheriff duties.

------
genefriend
What a dystopia China is.....you can't say winnie the pooh. when you send a
text message or post to wechat about winnie the pooh, it gets censored
immediately. You have a deranged social credit score that prevents you from
buying a house, riding a train, or leaving the country if you said winnie the
pooh before. There are cameras tracking your every move in public. Most
Chinese movies/tv shows you can watch have a 'china is great' and 'US/Japan is
evil' motiv.

Oh and pollution is suffocating, there are days when you can barely see the
sky, there are way too many people everywhere, ghost buildings and cities, you
know the food and water are tainted, and your leader/dictator does look like
winnie the pooh.

~~~
dang
We've banned this account for using HN primarily for national battle, which
breaks the site guidelines.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
a_t48
How common is this sort of behavior on HN?

~~~
dang
Less common than the ideology wars, but I wouldn't call it rare.

