
The Jobless Rate for Poor Black Teen Dropouts is 95% - prostoalex
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/businessdesk/2013/07/jobless-rate-for-poor-black-te.html
======
quaunaut
Honest question: Have we, as a society, looked into possibly supplying people
with short-term loans, with a guaranteed open position for someone at a place
in more rural parts of America?

Originally, I was born in Fresno, CA. We didn't have the most healthy job rate
when times were good, let alone once the recession hit. I spent _five years_
looking for a job- and didn't find one until I got the help of a friend online
in Claremore, Oklahoma, who let me move in. In a month I was working at an
auto parts store, even though I knew jack shit about cars. I was making enough
that I could've survived with that job. I'd be poor, I couldn't go to college,
but I could survive.

I was lucky enough that I had a nice computer I'd gotten from when there was a
windfall in the family, and I'd taught myself to program enough Python and
Django to get a webdev job remotely. But even if I hadn't, I could've survived
on this. Getting me out there cost a grand total of perhaps ~$1500, at most,
and that'd get me my first month's rent. Tack on another $1000 and I'd have 3
months rent total and enough leftover to get a cheap bed.

Is this economically feasible? Would it even provide good economic value?
People are needed in these rural areas, but I just don't know if it'd provide
enough economic reward to actually be worth it to the country.

~~~
rorrr2
You had a computer, and it took you five years to find A job?

I find that hard to believe.

~~~
quaunaut
Not all of us are born knowing people who can get us jobs. Fresno had one of
the densest populations of poverty in America, and as someone with no college,
finding minimum-wage work was near impossible- 4,000 people show up for jobs
at grocery stores. And no, that isn't an exaggeration.

Combine that with not knowing where to look or who to ask when it comes to
getting remote programming work, you don't really have a lot in the way of
recourse.

~~~
rorrr2
I knew none of my employers. Try Craigslist, Monster, Dice, LinkedIn.

------
hooande
This seems like another argument for Basic Income. A lot of young, jobless
people (males especially) isn't only a moral problem, but it's a sociological
problem. The young jobless commit more crimes, are more likely to join gangs
and are generally more of a drain on society. Giving them an income would
remove the social pressure to constantly look for jobs that aren't actually
there. People could focus on internships and other productive activities
without having to resort to selling drugs to make a living.

Short of full on Basic Income, we could at least continue a much larger
version of the government teen jobs program mentioned in the article. Money
given to low income youth tends to find it's way back into the economy
quickly. Much of the money from a government jobs program would be spent at
the mall or walmart, some of which would end up in the hands of vendors and
suppliers, which could get spent on apps and web services run by hn users. In
short, poor people don't save a lot. Some percentage of our tax money will
come back to us.

Capitalism is a great system, but it isn't perfect. The best predictor of
future income is parental income. Direct action is the best way to break the
cycle.

~~~
codex
Given that human wants are infinite, why would someone with no job but a basic
income not commit crimes to increase their income? They have plenty of time on
their hands, and their social status would be a function of how much wealth
they had beyond their basic income.

~~~
spamizbad
If I get a $270 check from the government every week (14K/year), what
incentive do I have robbing a gas station, which will probably have less than
half my weekly pay in the till (unless of course I carefully time my robbery).

It would be like a developer who makes ~$85K/year breaking into someones bank
account online and transferring just $800 out. And consider the punishment of
that crime versus armed robbery.

What you would likely see is people collecting wages off the books. People
working odd jobs part time for maybe $250 a week and collecting their minimum
income. Way less risk than crime; much better pay. This is bad, but nowhere
near as bad as robbery or working the black market.

~~~
pandaman
I doubt people who rob gas stations post often on the HN. But consider this:
it takes money to vandalize as the spray paint does not grow on trees and even
when you stole it you are missing an opportunity to steal something you could
pawn/sell (like washing detergent or booze). Yet the vandalism does not stop.

People don't join gangs to pay their bills.

~~~
spamizbad
Spray paint graffiti generally isn't used by independent criminals. It's
usually gang related. Or used by an artist (But they'd spring for the good
stuff, and aren't really doing any harm).

You can get spray paint for $1 at the dollar store. It's crap, but it's not
like you're using to rust-proof your patio furniture. You can even get "used"
cans at some places (like pawn shops). Considering the age restriction on
purchasing it, I'm guessing either A) people turn a blind eye to that rule B)
it gets shoplifted, or C) Old gang member member buys and distributes it.

~~~
wildgift
Gangs use graffiti to mark territory and presence. They don't necessarily
steal it. The person writing it is designated to write it. Overall, they don't
use much paint and probably don't care about paint quality.

Artistic tagging and graffiti are a different thing. Due to the amount of
paint used, they do tend to steal it if they lack money. "Racking" or stealing
it is also considered a part of that outlaw culture. A large mural can cost
hundreds of dollars to execute. Even a small picture can take a few cans of
paint.

To get an idea of the amount of paint, search for images of "gang graffiti",
and then for "graffiti murals".

------
incision
As I've mentioned on HN before, I dropped out of high school and found my into
a job in technology by way of a GED, public libraries and work as a
landscaper, in the DC area coincidentally.

Everything mentioned in this article rings to true me. The transition
traditional low-end jobs to middle-aged people and closed-circle of
internships and job programs in particular.

That said, the first step towards mitigating this would seem obvious - stay in
school. Unfortunately, anecdotal experience says the particularly bad
situation for young black teens starts with a general de-valuing of education
and victim mentality at home.

~~~
bilbo0s
Well...

We shouldn't engage in wishful thinking either. Even if they graduate high
school, the unemployment rate that awaits them is still pretty dismal. I
believe the employment/population ratio for young black males "increased" to
33% for high school graduates...

Only the Bureau of Labor Statistics doesn't count incarcerated people in that
ratio. So if you throw in that 1 in 9 young black males who are incarcerated,
(I know it's higher, but 1 in 9 is the rate for high school graduates), you
can see pretty clearly that even with a high school diploma they barely crack
a 20% employment/population ratio. And that's actually being pretty generous
with the numbers.

Of course, 20% - 25% is a better chance than 5%, so it's TECHNICALLY better to
have a high school diploma...

But since the unemployment rate for whites with no high school diploma hoovers
around 12%... it's actually MUCH better just to be white, than it is to
graduate high school.

For blacks, especially males, I think the only way education really helps them
in a material fashion, is if they can manage to graduate college.

~~~
incision
_> We shouldn't engage in wishful thinking either._

Of course not. That's why I refer to staying in school as a "first step" as
opposed to a solution.

 _> But since the unemployment rate for whites with no high school diploma
hoovers around 12%... it's actually MUCH better just to be white, than it is
to graduate high school._

I'd expect it's even better to be born rich and well-connected. Equality and
the distribution of wealth and influence are important topics, but they're the
last thing anyone who's actively struggling should be concerned with.

 _> For blacks, especially males, I think the only way education really helps
them in a material fashion, is if they can manage to graduate college._

Both the statistics you provided and my experience disagree with this notion.

------
mjfl
What jobs are you going to give them? Cashiers these days have Bachelors
degrees in Communications. It's the inflation in the system. America is not
producing as many factories as it used to, manual labor jobs in construction
are hard enough to get. If you drop out, it's going to be tough to get a job.

~~~
tzs
If that were the explanation, then wouldn't we expect white drop-outs to have
unemployment rates that are similar?

~~~
notatoad
not really. A black high school drop out is probably looking for a job in a
city (and a large city at that). a white high school dropout is much more
likely to be looking for a job in a rural area or a smaller city, where there
are much more opportunities for people with less education.

------
nhebb
> _The sad thing is that since the nation began to add jobs in 2009, we 've
> created about 5.2 million additional jobs for America's workers. Teenagers
> in the aggregate received none of them. Not one._

This is the kind of Washington, DC b.s. that gets regurgitated in the news. If
you look at the U6 unemployment rate, the net impact has been a huge upturn in
total unemployment:

[http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/U6RATE](http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/U6RATE)

------
bluedino
Where are the young black kids in tech? Blacks of any age are sorely under-
represented in tech. So are Latinos, although not quite as bad. It's a very
white (and Asian/Indian) world we live in.

I'm so glad to see things like Black Girls Code. These kids need mentors that
aren't sports stars, or music stars. Oddly enough, music is one industry I
always remember running into a lot of black people in - Macs and ProTools used
in music production.

~~~
w1ntermute
> Oddly enough, music is one industry I always remember running into a lot of
> black people in - Macs and ProTools used in music production.

That's not odd at all. Blacks are hugely overrepresented in the music industry
(as well as the pro sports industry).

You gotta love how American society is always collectively wringing its hands
about how there aren't enough black people in STEM, but nobody mentions how
underrepresented Asians are in the entertainment and pro sports industries.

~~~
MartinCron
The entertainment and pro sports industries are so small that they hardly
matter in terms of actual employment.

~~~
agilebyte
They matter because they represent a big win for a select few and people
feeling they do not have many choices will discount the "few" and invest all
their eggs into those two baskets and most often than not fail.

------
ErikAugust
"High school students working today work at less than a 50 percent rate to
what they did back in 2000. Like in our state here in Massachusetts, 45
percent of our high school students worked in 2000. Last year it was 15
percent: 45 to 15 percent."

I had a couple jobs - as a high schooler in Massachusetts in 2000. I learned a
lot of job/life skills from those jobs...

~~~
Jayschwa
Ditto. I learned that I didn't want to scrub toilets for the rest of my life!

~~~
ErikAugust
Ha, yes - I learned that as well, among other things.

------
jlgreco
_So all those factors, when you combine them and take a young black high
school dropout, low-income male, you 're talking 5 percent employment.

Paul Solman: 5 percent?

Andrew Sum: Yes.

Paul Solman: 95 percent unemployment rate?

Andrew Sum: Jobless. Not all of them would be classified as [unemployed], but
they're not working. In other words, you could just say, "I gave up looking
for work," which a lot of them do, but only 5 percent are working. Yes, 5
percent.

Another factor is geography. Last year, in the summer in [Washington,] D.C.,
only 15 percent of the kids worked; California, only 20 percent; Arizona and
large parts of the south, 20 percent. Yet in Montana, North Dakota, South
Dakota, Iowa, Nebraska, you had 50 percent to 55 percent of those kids
working._

This part is unclear to me. Is the "those kids" in the last section (about the
geographic factor) still referring to the "young black highschool dropouts",
or to a more general group again?

~~~
recuter
There are fewer young black people in Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota,
Iowa, Nebraska which happen to have higher youth employment rates. So that
partially accounts for it.

But still, 95 percent..

~~~
jlgreco
Yeah, black youth unemployment rates in those states won't have much influence
since the black population in those states is much smaller.

However if black youth unemployment rates in those states is better than the
national rates (it is unclear if the article is claiming this or not), then it
is probably worth looking into what these states are doing that makes this the
case.

~~~
ritchiea
Competition is much higher in urban areas. There are more black families in
urban areas and thus there are more black dropouts while simultaneously urban
areas have become hip destinations for college graduates. I know 20-somethings
in NYC with liberal arts and art degrees that still work in retail or food
services. And even many of my friends who no longer perform jobs like that did
for several months to over a year while they sought out other work. I don't
think this is as much of a phenomenon in Montana, the Dakotas and Iowa because
they don't have a high rate of 20-somethings entering the workforce from other
parts of the country.

------
bmmayer1
Minimum wage law.

~~~
readme
Hardly. Lowering the minimum wage isn't going to make an unskilled and lazy
teenager useful.

We have programs for this:

* [http://www.jobcorps.gov/home.aspx](http://www.jobcorps.gov/home.aspx) \-- This provides room, board, a stipend suitable for a teenager with no expenses, and vocational training for those under 25 years old (i.e, teens)

* [http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/](http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/) \-- There's really no disputing this one. Any one of them can hoof it over to the nearest community college and get some skills and a paid work-study job.

* [http://www.army.mil/](http://www.army.mil/) \-- Many of you probably don't like this, but it's probably the most successful organization at turning lazy teens into productive citizens, however, it carries the risk of death or dismemberment. My point, is there are many options.

To split hairs over the minimum wage because 95% of 1% of kids (the
approximate dropout rate) don't have jobs is nonsense. So, because these kids
who did not do their civic duty are unemployed means we should lower labor
standards for everyone else, including those who have to feed families, such
as the parents of these very children? It can only worsen the situation.

Min wage is already so low that it is not the driver to whether someone is
getting hired or not. The big corporations that run most of the "small"
businesses now, can pay. They just need to know they're indeed getting a
valuable worker.

The other thing is, a lot of that 95% can be accounted for by kids who don't
want a job. They'd rather play x-box, or work as a foot soldier in the local
gang.

We have programs for this. Job corps, seriously. There's nothing stopping
young people from working here. The jobs exist. The skills do not.

~~~
jlgreco
I think that there is value in dropping the minimum wage _for teenagers_
dramatically, regardless of these issues. Giving teenagers another place to
get yelled at for not working hard enough (besides just school and home) is
clearly beneficial (as you note about the military) but the options that you
list are not sufficient. They require too much of a lifestyle change which
makes those programs seem inaccessible. Letting the sandwich shop down the
road yell at teenagers for $4/hr is better than having teenagers go halfway
across the state with Job Corps.

Teenagers in rural areas already have plenty of opportunities to be employed
below minimum wage, but these opportunities largely do not exist right now in
urban areas. I suspect this partially accounts for the employment
discrepancies in rural and urban areas.

(Dropping the minimum wage for this should _only_ be done for teenagers who
have more social safety-nets than adults.)

~~~
readme
>dropping the minimum wage for teenagers

I can agree to this, except, lets do it this way: lets leave the minimum wage
where it is for teens, and raise it for everyone else. That'd also solve the
problem of adults working jobs that are meant for teens.

~~~
newnewnew
Who's in charge of deciding which jobs are "meant" for teens?

~~~
readme
It wouldn't be such a big deal to prevent adults from taking these jobs, it
just needs to be more attractive for companies to give them to students. So,
the lower wage alone would be a good enough incentive for them.

Once the minimum wage was lower for "school jobs" the market would efficiently
define which jobs can be given to school kids and which can't.

------
readme
The 5% who actually have jobs are probably programmers.

~~~
jedanbik
Are you just saying that, or are you just saying that?

------
WhoIsSatoshi
I see a lot of peripheral discussion - But what do you think about the
article? As an investor, I see the proposed solution as very interesting. I
feel as though there is no reason that the funding effort cannot be entirely
crowdsourced for a company trying to raise funds.

~~~
peripheralFix
I have a pointed question for you:

 _As an investor, how many of these dropouts would you like to hire at one of
your startups tomorrow morning?_

I don't really understand which solution you're pointing out as a candidate
for crowdsourcing. Microloans are as much of a solution as pawn shops, to be
brutally honest.

------
ukoto
Jobs are racist.

~~~
npc
No, just the people who decide who gets them:
[http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873](http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873)

~~~
bmmayer1
Didn't Steve Levitt prove this wrong?

~~~
npc
I don't know, did he? Here's some more if that didn't convince you (courtesy
of Tim Wise: [http://www.timwise.org/2010/07/black-powers-gonna-git-you-
su...](http://www.timwise.org/2010/07/black-powers-gonna-git-you-sucka-right-
wing-paranoia-and-the-rhetoric-of-modern-racism/))

[http://www.princeton.edu/~pager/race_at_work.pdf](http://www.princeton.edu/~pager/race_at_work.pdf)

[http://www.eeo1.com/1999_NR/Title.pdf](http://www.eeo1.com/1999_NR/Title.pdf)

[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/us/01race.html?_r=2](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/us/01race.html?_r=2)

