
The ‘clean plate’ mentality drives us to overeat? - fcsuper
https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2018/11/27/the-clean-plate-mentality-drives-us-to-overeat-to-go-bags-can-help/
======
air7
I've come to believe that singular scientific papers should be consider "only
slightly above noise". Like ants leaving weak pheromones when they find food:
It works well in scale but close to random in the particular case. I feel this
is even more true nowadays, when the marginal utility of improved rigorousness
is so low.

This article reads to me like a PR piece for the (marketing) professor more
than an honest showcasing of scientific findings: The results are very
relatable and feel intuitively true so as a reader it's easy to pick it up as
"ammunition" for future family dinner discussions and thus are also good for
the media to publish. So there's no need for rigorous science. (I mean come
on, "participants were asked to imagine eating a certain number of cookies
(...) and then asked how much they wanted one more cookie.")

------
finaliteration
My wife’s grandparents are very much the “you aren’t leaving until you clear
your plate” kind of people and it’s given her mother a lot of anxiety around
food and weight. I grew up in a family of 7 where food was scarce and some
nights you were lucky to get anything at all for dinner so I’m also inclined
to eat way too much at each meal.

Because of this (and for other reasons) we never ever make our daughter clear
her plate. If she says she’s full she can walk away. We also keep healthy
snacks around the house (fruits, vegetables, whole grains, a very small amount
of “junk” food) so she does “graze” throughout the day. But we don’t force
food habits on her because I don’t want her growing up with a complex around
food or her weight. It’s more important to me that she make healthy nutrition
choices overall and keeps in touch with her body about when she’s hungry. I
feel like pushing for a clean plate goes against that.

~~~
ixtli
I have exactly the same story. My grandparents gave my mother a borderline
eating disorder. Happily she became a nutritionist and helps lots of people …
but the depression-era trauma still affects us today.

~~~
bonestamp2
Same story here too. It took me a long time to untrain myself from clearing my
plate, so we try not to let our kids think that the quantity of food available
should affect how much food they eat. It sounds so obvious when it's phrased
that way.

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gumby
Our household rule was "if you put it on your plate you had to finish it; if
someone else put it on your plate you don't have to" (with some parental
modulation such as "yes you are having some of these Brussels sprouts" or
"finish the beans before you go for seconds").

Parents don't like to see food wasted (it took money to buy and time to
prepare and the alternatives aren't good for kids) but these rules were also
on us: don't put an unreasonable amount of food on the kids' plates.

~~~
balfirevic
That makes sense as a training mechanism for kids to not just overfill their
plates regardless of how hungry they are.

But it is important to realize that food that you force someone to eat after
they feel properly full is worse than wasted. Not only have you already spent
time and money to prepare it, which you won't get back, but you also just made
their stomach ache. And you have taken whatever little agency they have as a
kid - now they freaking don't even get to decide how hungry they are.

(This is not directed at you, as you seem to have a reasonable system in
place. Your comment just seemed like a good place to plug this rant) :)

~~~
gumby
They do learn to have agency: think plan ahead and make your own decision.
Live with the consequences of your decision.

As I noted every decision is modulated by parental intervention — if a kid
made an obvious mistake, possibly intervene early “are you sure you want six
bao? Just take a couple — you can always have more” or late “ok, but see the
problem? Next time let’s be more careful.”

Yeah, parenting is non-algorithmic, and once (if?) you get good at it it’s too
late to do it again.

~~~
Kalium
> Yeah, parenting is non-algorithmic, and once (if?) you get good at it it’s
> too late to do it again.

Arguably multi-generational households with grandparents on hand are able to
take advantage of this. This is perhaps not as useful as it was centuries ago,
due to how fast society and the situations a family might face have shifted.

~~~
gumby
Good point. This is one hypothesis for why human females live beyond the end
of fertility (so-called “grandmother thesis”)

------
saagarjha
At the risk of sounding preachy, I was raised with the “clean plate”
philosophy and avoided overeating by planning beforehand what I could
reasonably eat, and never putting anything more on my plate. Once you get rid
of the incentive at the very end to eat just a bit more, I don’t see this as
being a huge problem anymore.

~~~
nostrademons
It works when you serve yourself or otherwise have control over your own
portions. When I moved away to college I found that suddenly I usually cleaned
my plate _and_ didn't overstuff myself. Ditto when I cook for myself.

Not everybody eats under those conditions. When I was a kid my parents would
always put food on my plate, and I was expected to eat it all. They usually
put too much, because nobody wants to be the parent who starves their kid.
Similarly, restaurants always tend to err on the side of serving too much
rather than too little, as do family gatherings or dinner parties where the
guests do not serve themselves.

~~~
saagarjha
Interestingly, the my parents were the ones serving me for the majority of my
childhood. I guess they had already internalized this rule and knew how much
food I needed ;)

At restaurants, we would usually skimp on appetizers and other “fluff” before
the main course, which I have found makes the total amount of food not overly
large.

~~~
tapland
Tbh your post reads as 'I avoided overeating by me learning how much I needed
to eat and me never putting extra on the plate'

In reality I guess you had unusual parents who were good at telling how much
you needed, so you didn't avoid this problem in any way at all, you were just
not subject to it.

~~~
saagarjha
I need to serve myself now, so I still think the suggestion applies?

------
starefossen
At least where I live in Norway I would argue that it is not the amount of
food you eat during a meal that is a problem but everything else in between
regular meals (coke, chocolate, chips etc.).

~~~
drchickensalad
I've eliminated all snacking and soda calories from my life and I still have a
big problem with maintaining/losing weight. Definitely should be helping
though.

~~~
black-tea
So you're eating 4-5 meals a day, I suppose? Eat two meals and you will lose
weight. Simple as that.

~~~
drchickensalad
I'm usually two or three meals. Just hard to control portion consistently.

~~~
black-tea
Try weighing out your carbs and the rest of the meal should sort itself out.
Pasta and rice should be about 100-125g for a normal man.

------
rrdharan
I wonder if this has been replicated - wasn't immediately obvious to me, and
I'm now perhaps overly suspicious of any and all food science claims after the
Wansink disaster:

[https://www.vox.com/science-and-
health/2018/9/19/17879102/br...](https://www.vox.com/science-and-
health/2018/9/19/17879102/brian-wansink-cornell-food-brand-lab-retractions-
jama)

------
sethammons
Mom: "There are starving kids in China, eat all your food!". Thanks Mom; kids
are still starving there, and now America is fat. --unkown comedian.

I was told, as a kid, that it was rude to not eat all the food put in front of
you, especially at other people's houses. Other parents would comment on how
polite we children were for clearing our plates.

~~~
johnisgood
> "There are starving kids in China, eat all your food!"

This does not make much sense to me. If eating all your food is the only
alternative to throwing food out, it is sort of OK, but even then, it does not
solve the issue at all because you are the one eating all the food, not the
starving kids in China.

Additionally, why come up with such nonsense? This is one of the worst things
you could do to your kid. You should instead educate them and tell them the
actual reasons for why one should not waste food.

Mind you, if you cook less instead, then you would not have to eat them, nor
throw them out. :)

~~~
delinka
The missing implication, that even parents completely missed, was “you should
be grateful to have food, and you show that gratitude by eating all the food
on your plate.”

Still completely unhelpful to the starving, and still orthogonal...

~~~
lifeformed
And also that eating all your food implies that you thought it tasted good.
Leaving a bunch behind says: I didn't like it.

------
SubiculumCode
My grandparents were poor Oklahoman migrants. You ate your food when you had
it; you and your neighbors were close to starvation. You cooked your meat
(when you had it) thououghly because it wasn't always fresh. You kept every
little thing so you have something later.

These behaviors are passed down through generations, but what was adaptive is
now maladaptive.

------
ourmandave
The best that ever happened to my health was gaining complete control over
what I eat.

I eat only what I want, when I want. And how much I want.

The trade off, of course, is dying alone. But hey, health!

~~~
gnode
> dying alone

I don't think it's unreasonable to have a partner and eat differently to them.
It's pretty common where someone has a dietary requirement.

------
nraynaud
I feel like that, I am from a violent family who would force me to finish my
plate, now it’s very hard for me not to finish at the restaurant.

------
dreeves
Beeminder taking this to characteristic extremes:
[https://blog.beeminder.com/waisted](https://blog.beeminder.com/waisted)

------
code_duck
I was affected by a similar philosophy for a long time. For me, it’s an
aversion to wastefulness for the theoretical sake of ecology and economics.
The logical flaw I’m seeing now is that overeating to the point of obesity or
indigestion is more of a waste and throwing the food away, and what I need to
do is purchase less or give it to someone else.

Even worse, I have celiac and an esophagus condition that is much worse with
overeating, and habitually at restaurants I’d clean my plate because I thought
getting a takeout box was a waste, but I did not want to see the food be
thrown out. I also see a similar pattern with containers of packaged food. I’m
much more likely to finish that last one or two cookies or handfuls of chip
crumbs and leave them for later.

I’m not sure that this study contains any new useful advice, but it is a real
phenomenon.

------
newnewpdro
This was annoying growing up in a household with a stay-at-home european
mother who cooked huge, delicious, but calorie-dense meals. We were taught to
always clean our plates, but were expected to say "when" while the chef served
and _never_ actually stopped immediately upon hearing "when".

In adulthood though, having completely restructured my diet to something
devoid of calorie-dense, quickly-digested fillers, none of this matters. I
never have leftovers of whatever I'm eating, just to avoid the hassle; food
going bad, or simply less cleanup. It's of no lasting negative consequence to
my weight.

I think this issue is largely a red herring as a result. _What_ you're eating
dictates the significance of _how much_. If you fix the what, how much becomes
irrelevant.

------
fouc
The real innovation here is - to-go bags.

Just keep a spare zip-loc bag in your pocket, ready for the sudden and
embarrassing situation when you are full with food left on the plate.

------
raymondgh
The almond experiment sounds ridiculous! Asking people to imagine eating ten
chocololate-covered almonds then to guess how much they’d like to eat another
after their hypothetical consumption? Does this produce results as reliable as
actually eating the almonds in the first place?

------
alleskleber
The reminds me of the "bottomless bowls" experiment [0]. I know it from a TV
show where it was recreated a few years ago but it was actually a real study.

> Using self-refilling soup bowls, this study examined whether visual cues
> related to portion size can influence intake volume without altering either
> estimated intake or satiation.

> Participants who were unknowingly eating from self-refilling bowls ate more
> soup than those eating from normal soup bowls. However, despite consuming
> 73% more, they did not believe they had consumed more, nor did they perceive
> themselves as more sated than those eating from normal bowls. This was
> unaffected by BMI.

[0]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15761167](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15761167)

------
pluc
So either you eat yourself into a depression or you get depressed because your
constant throwing away is fucking up [your ability to stay on] the planet.
Such great times to be alive.

~~~
dahart
Because not putting more on your plate than you’re going to eat isn’t an
option?

~~~
pluc
There's a whole mechanic in the art of buying, preparing and cooking just
enough. I've lived for nearly 40 years and I'm still not great at it.

------
makecheck
It also happens in reverse: you tend to fill the size of plate you have, the
size of glass, etc.

At buffets I either pick small plates or intentionally pick a small number of
items regardless of how much of the plate is used.

With soda for instance I eventually realized that the main reason I was
drinking a certain amount was a combination of the cup size and the straw. I
switched to tiny cups that I drank from directly and found I could _easily_
make that last a meal and have some left. Now I barely drink soda.

------
yhoiseth
As a rule of thumb, I tell myself that it’s better to throw away food than to
overeat. (Preparing just the right amount is even better, but more difficult.)

~~~
sixstringtheory
What about saving for the next day, composting or donating?

As a former professional cook it burns me to see such a casual suggestion to
waste food. I’ve worked for people who would weigh the food you swept up off
the floor at the end of the day to illustrate waste.

~~~
dom96
For myself at least, saving food for the next day is rather difficult. Mainly
because nowadays I very seldom cook food for myself, a lot of my food
consumption is through ready made meals that I can just put in the oven or
microwave. The packaging almost always warns that this type of food cannot be
reheated so I don't save it. I think a lot of people do this.

Even if I do cook for myself I am often unsure whether it is safe to reheat
the food, and for how long.

~~~
radicalbyte
As long as you keep the food in the fridge and heat it properly when you
reheat it (so it gets boiling hot) the vast majority of food keeps for several
days in the fridge.

I leave pea soup and pot currys at room temp (19-23c) for 24-48 hours before I
eat them; after that they keep for several days in the fridge.

If you live in a warm climate and/or leave food uncovered all day then you're
asking for problems. In those cases I wouldn't reheat them..

------
gnicholas
The finish-your-plate mentality can be especially troublesome in a household
where food disappears quickly. I had an older brother and a dad who ate a lot,
so if I didn’t take enough food in my first serving then I might not get any
more.

It took me well into college to realize that (especially in a dining hall) I
could serve myself a conservative-sized portion and get more later if I was
still hungry.

------
rayiner
Coming from south asia, I wish cleaning your plate was enough in my family. If
you don’t take seconds and thirds it’s an insult to the host.

------
Fricken
If I go out for dinner and get served a big meal, I'm going to stuff myself
silly and if I eat breakfast at all the next morning it'll be a banana or
something. It really isn't hard to balance out your calorie intake across
meals. I have a hard time believing that the insidious 'clean plate' mentality
is the real culprit behind why so many people are fat.

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option_greek
I never really understood why one shouldn't waste food. On other hand there
are several reasons why one might waste a bit of it (may be it wasn't as tasty
as expected/you overestimated your hunger).

It's not like food prices fluctuate based on everyone wasting certain portion
of food. Global food prices are usually dependent on the supply side more than
demand side.

------
jacquesm
Simple rule: if you put food on your own plate you should eat it all, if
someone else puts food on your plate you are allowed to leave as much or as
little of it as you want. That way you will hopefully learn to take only as
much food as you will want to eat.

------
adamnemecek
Another solution is making smaller portions. The sizes restaurants give you
are ginormous.

~~~
sixstringtheory
Ridiculous idea to downvote. I almost never finish restaurant meals, I’ll take
the second half for lunch the next day or give it to someone on the walk home.

But suggesting portion control would be advocating more personal
responsibility, so maybe that explains peoples’ “disagreement.” So much easier
to toss in the trash, right?

~~~
PunchTornado
I always feel bad when asking to pack the leftovers at the restaurant.

is it rude or a sign of being poor? I'm unsure.

~~~
usrusr
> Is it rude or a sign of being poor?

Thinking about wether or not it is a sign of being poor is a sign of being
poor. What would Scrooge McDuck do?

~~~
nkrisc
> What would Scrooge McDuck do?

Whatever the f __* he wants.

------
linkmotif
I'll never totally give up the clean plate mentality but at the same time,
giving up the clean plate mentality was instrumental for me losing weight.
Just put less on your plate. Then add more, judiciously.

------
Wowfunhappy
This should be common sense.

Obviously, wasting food is bad. But if you've already served yourself too
much, it's a sunk cost. This should be taught to kids, even if it's a somewhat
more complicated lesson.

------
miguelrochefort
I never leave anything on the plate, unless it's so bad I wouldn't eat it even
if I was starving. I do this even at all-you-can-eat buffets.

To avoid overeating, I only eat once a day.

------
PunchTornado
the leftovers are food for my enemies <\- my mom

so I always had to finish.

------
chiefalchemist
An abundance of food and a willingness to take more than you need if the
cause. "Clean plate" would not be an issue if there wasn't too much already on
the plate.

Furthermore, what's on the plate matters as well. Three fried pieces of
chicken and mashed potatoes with gravy is not the same as broiled chicken with
steamed vegetables.

I suspect - based on anecdotal evidence - people who often over eat also too
often eat badly.

------
your-nanny
just get smaller plates. large plates encourage over eating by encouraging you
to put more food on them than is reasonable.

~~~
fotbr
That was the key for me. I switched to smaller plates, and I quit gaining
weight. It helped enforce portion control, which I am horribly bad at if left
to my own devices.

------
Markoff
the takeaway it's to order children portions when eating outside and use
smaller plates when at home

------
black-tea
When you eat only two meals a day, every plate is clean. Trust me. You
shouldn't eat anything at all outside of meal time.

