
China says Tiananmen crackdown was 'correct' - avocado4
https://www.dw.com/en/china-says-tiananmen-crackdown-was-correct/a-49004281
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dredmorbius
Discussed here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20077763](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20077763)

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devereaux
We can't ever know the counterfactual. If these had degenerated into a
revolution, there would have been many more casualties.

What we know for sure is that, 30 years later, the country is enjoying
tremendous growth, has lifted a lot of its population from poverty, and did
that even with foreign powers trying to meddle with it.

Personally, I would consider that a success - especially when compared to say
Russia. Sure, things could have been handled better, but Monday quarterbacking
is easy, while action is hard.

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Findeton
The ends don't justify the means, but justifying the means is socialism 101.
Moreover, if they had liberalized both the economy and the social laws,
economy would have grown even more.

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Udik
Like it did in Russia.

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Findeton
I didn't know that Russia was a paradise of social and economic freedom, can
you elaborate?

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Udik
Sure. You said:

\- if they had liberalized both the economy and the social laws, economy would
have grown even more.

And I pointed out (sarcastically, I admit) that the transition to freedom and
market economy didn't work out very well in the other example of communist
superpower. It might not have anything to do with the transition, per se; it
might just be that Russia was culturally unprepared for it and it managed it
very badly. But I find easy to believe that a sudden switch from a single
party system and an entirely planned economy, to free market and democracy, is
in itself extremely risky.

China has been doing great in the years since 1989; Russia, that has tried to
follow the path of democracy and market (of course, with very mediocre
results), has not.

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Findeton
I didn't choose Russia as an example of economic and social freedom, you did.
Russia is not high on the scale of social and economic freedom. In fact Russia
has never ever been a democracy in its whole history. You want a better
example? Chile.

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Udik
You're reading in my comment things I didn't actually say. Specifically, I
didn't choose Russia as an example of economic or social freedom. I instead
argued that Russia _tried_ to go that way, and it didn't end well. And of
course, if Russia were an actual example of social and economic freedom, that
would go against my whole argument.

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0815test
They never even tried, though. They may have _claimed_ at some point that
they'd do it, but that's a very different matter - they went the "government
cronyism" way, and very explicitly so. Again, just compare what Eastern Europe
has been achieving, and it's no comparison - _even_ after you account for the
fact that Russia did have to face quite a bit of enduring hostility and
distrust from Western institutions.

