
U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups - nwrk
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-exclusive/u-s-expands-blacklist-to-include-chinas-top-ai-startups-ahead-of-trade-talks-idUSKBN1WM25M
======
sumanthvepa
I guess I am a somewhat neutral bystander here. I'm from India and the way I
see it, these sorts of actions, will simply force China and Chinese companies
to develop alternatives to US products. For the short to medium term these
blacklists will hurt Chinese companies severely, perhaps even put some of them
out of business. However, in the long term 15-20 years, I would imagine, China
would have fully caught up with the US particularly on semiconductor design
and fabrication. Once that happens, the dominance of the US tech stack will
start to falter and eventually erode away. If I were the US govt., I would
invest every available dollar and minute on building up a technological lead,
because, oh boy it is going to need every last bit of advantage it can get.
And even that may not be enough.

For the world, this may not be a terrible outcome, (although don't get me
wrong -- no trade war would be the best outcome.) . For one thing, it breaks
monopolies across the tech stack from E-commerce all the way to semi-conductor
manufacturing equipment. That competition between US and Chinese companies can
only benefit the world. It's happening in 5G already.

~~~
wideasleep1
"However, in the long term 15-20 years, I would imagine, China would have
fully caught up with the US particularly on semiconductor design and
fabrication. Once that happens, the dominance of the US tech stack will start
to falter and eventually erode away. "

Are you assuming the U.S. will sit stagnant during these 15-20 years? If China
is 15-20 years behind currently, I doubt they will ever be at parity. Their
best hope is a cultural revolution.

~~~
devoply
US was already shown to be behind in 5g, China is already caught up. Heck they
even helped AMD catch up to Intel, and see what sort of major success that was
(
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD%E2%80%93Chinese_joint_vent...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD%E2%80%93Chinese_joint_venture)
) . These moves are there to slow it down. But China can make other moves like
moving tech knowledge from one company to others and play all sorts of games.
Fact is knowledge despite what Americans want the world to believe, replicates
and distributes powers in ways which are very difficult to stop. If China is
not building it, they will move the knowledge to some ally which can build it.
It's almost guaranteed at this point that we are already living in a
bifurcated world where US will need to manufacture everything in other
countries than China. And yet China's manufacturing edge is not going
anywhere. They can clone any US product anyone else is producing and sell it
to their trading bloc.

~~~
wideasleep1
"US was already shown to be behind in 5g, China is already caught up."

So the mainstream media and politicians would have us believe.

"Heck they even helped AMD catch up to Intel, and see what sort of major
success that was (
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD%E2%80%93Chinese_joint_vent...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD%E2%80%93Chinese_joint_vent..).
) "

All I see here is an agreement for AMD to transfer technology to China, for
x86 chips destined for chinese-only server market. Further, that agreement
appears stalled, since AMD will NOT transfer their Zen2 technologies in this
agreement. [https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-zen-china-x86-ip-
licen...](https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-zen-china-x86-ip-
license,39573.html)

"And yet China's manufacturing edge is not going anywhere. They can clone any
US product anyone else is producing and sell it to their trading bloc."

More like their manufacturing may not be going anywhere...their market has
been shrinking by leaps and bounds.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G#Surveillance_concerns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G#Surveillance_concerns)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerns_over_Chinese_involvem...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerns_over_Chinese_involvement_in_5G_wireless_networks)

They can have Iran, AFAIC.

~~~
greatpatton
I don't know but from a science point of view all our last research are based
on paper coming from people at China companies (Alibaba, Tencent), that
currently have the edge in our specific domain (machine learning). So yes in
domains that mainly require your brain they have caught up if not ahead.

~~~
yorwba
Machine learning is a wide field. Could you give some examples of research
you've done based on papers that came out of Alibaba, Tencent, etc.? I'm
curious.

~~~
greatpatton
of course ML is a wide field but for instance these paper were quite relevant
to our work:

* [https://arxiv.org/pdf/1802.03903.pdf](https://arxiv.org/pdf/1802.03903.pdf) * [https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8710885](https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8710885) but they are numerous, and the work done at Tsinghua University is very interesting

By the way down voting a comment based on facts is rather silly...

~~~
yorwba
Thanks for the links.

By the way, the site guidelines exhort us to

 _Please don 't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good,
and it makes boring reading._

------
saltking112
One thing that I really like about the Trump administration is that finally
the WH has decided to act against the systemic threat posed by China.

Can someone who is well versed in politics shed some light on if this is a
trump specific phenonemon or had there been a sea change and the dems are now
on board too ?

~~~
pesmhey
Obama was manufacturing the pivot to Asia. The TTP would have given a lot of
power to corporations to combat China. This presents its own set of problems
though.

Clinton was adamant that her grandchildren would not be speaking Chinese.

China has been acknowledged as a threat since 2008 really, by everyone really,
just, sometimes people need a very visual and visceral demonstration of action
(no matter how less-optimal it actually is). Surely some business people in
here can relate to that sentiment?

~~~
wavefunction
From what I understand many corporate victims of Chinese industrial espionage
since 2008 specifically declined to pursue prosecution for fear of what it
would do to their existing or potential for business with Chinese entities and
individuals.[0]

And this was despite a Justice Department that was chomping at the bit to
prosecute Chinese industrial espionage. I bring this up because I think this
shows why leaving weighty matters involving the security and future of your
country up to corporations is a poor idea, especially when corporations are
motivated solely by profit as corporatists gleefully remind us at all times.

[0][https://www.npr.org/2019/04/12/711779130/as-china-hacked-
u-s...](https://www.npr.org/2019/04/12/711779130/as-china-hacked-u-s-
businesses-turned-a-blind-eye)

~~~
pesmhey
Do you think the TPP was a response to this fear? Genuine question here.

------
zelon88
"In other news, US IoT botnet activity down 75% after shipments of Hikvision
cameras stopped by customs..."

------
buildzr
Wow, interesting to see Hikvision on this list, I own several of their cameras
(and keep them isolated on a separate VLAN), but once you know them, you see
them everywhere, they have a huge hold in the video surveillance market.
Wonder if their main Chinese competitor, Dahua will pick up their market share
in the US or if there's a more local competitor.

Huawei's HiSilicon fab makes purpose built ICs for these things, I've dumped
the firmware for some whitebox ones done by a local tech retailer, but they
were still heavily reliant on those ICs. Will be very interesting to see what
happens in that market if this persists for long.

~~~
madcapmac
I procure cameras for some systems development we are doing for the DoD.
Hikvision and Dahua are both specifically banned by law. The number of
American companies simply rebranding banned cameras and stamping "Manufactured
in America" on them was a bit of a shock.

~~~
onepointsixC
Any non Chinese manufacturers you can recommend?

~~~
madcapmac
Try:

[https://www.pelco.com/ndaa](https://www.pelco.com/ndaa)

[https://www.securitysales.com/surveillance/honeywell-30-seri...](https://www.securitysales.com/surveillance/honeywell-30-series-
cameras/)

Careful with the Honeywell stuff. They are a "rebrander". However, the 30
series cameras claim to be compliant.

Here's an interesting article about the Army getting caught up in that trap:

[https://ipvm.com/reports/gordon-honeywell](https://ipvm.com/reports/gordon-
honeywell)

Look for NDAA Section 889 compliance when searching.

------
ETHisso2017
[https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-
inspection.federalregister.g...](https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-
inspection.federalregister.gov/2019-22210.pdf)

Actual ban document.

------
thesausageking
SenseTime was founded by an MIT grad and has joint AI research partnership
with MIT[0]. It will be interesting what this blacklist means for these kinds
of collaborations.

[0] [https://news.mit.edu/2018/mit-sensetime-announce-effort-
adva...](https://news.mit.edu/2018/mit-sensetime-announce-effort-advance-
artificial-intelligence-research-0228)

~~~
hkmaxpro
But he’s also part of the controversial “Thousand Talents Program” [0] (link
in Chinese) that is being closely watched by the US [1]. Not surprised at all
about the blacklist.

[0]
[https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%B1%A4%E6%99%93%E9%B8%A5](https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%B1%A4%E6%99%93%E9%B8%A5)
[1]
[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/07/24/business/fbi-10...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/07/24/business/fbi-1000-probes-
ongoing-chinese-intellectual-property-theft/)

------
abeppu
The US claims that this blacklisting is unrelated to trade negotiations, but
one has to wonder -- why did we wait until now?

And if this is just a way to create leverage during trade negotiations, how
would the administration gracefully reverse these blacklisting actions in
exchange for something unrelated without it being patently clear that this was
never about human rights?

~~~
phyek
Agreed. Clearly a negotiation tactic. I expect nothing material to come out of
the upcoming meeting. I work in public equities and this has been such an
ongoing headache... anyone remember when a full deal was supposed to get done
by end of March 2019?

What a joke...

~~~
onepointsixC
And what, making a Uyghur American the National Security Council's China
director also a negotiation tactic? Anyone in equities who believes that there
will be a deal isn't paying attention.

~~~
neonate
phyek just said "I expect nothing material", so obviously is not expecting a
deal.

------
AlexCoventry
Has this kind of strategy ever worked, in trade negotiations? It seems about
as likely to be effective as a bombing campaign: It'll reduce the other side's
effectiveness, but from a negotiation perspective it'll only cause them to dig
in harder.

~~~
99_00
China doesn't want a deal. They only want to continue to exploit the US. So
the US is gradually decoupling from them.

~~~
DiogenesKynikos
"Exploit the US" by providing cheap labor to US firms? It's scary to see
jingoistic rhetoric spreading on HN. China is the new enemy du jour, and lots
of people here seem to be itching for a conflict.

~~~
ep103
The tables are fundamentally imbalanced now, I see nothing wrong with the US
attempting to finally start addressing the issue. The fact that US companies
have been exploiting that imbalance to pursue cheap labor is irrelevant to the
conversation.

------
vunie
So far, china has only retaliated defensively against the us. I wonder what
will happen when china decides to go on the offensive the same way the us has
and hit were it really hurts? What will happen if they cut off the us entirely
and force asian countries to cease trading with it (i.e. using the same
strategies used to isolate iran or turkey).

Successful military intervention is unlikely since china is a nuclear
superpower with a strong army and an even stronger industrial backbone.
They're not some defenseless third-world shithole.

I can't imagine it being long now, but china will eventually get to the
tipping point were things start to go downhill for them. I bet china won't let
it get to that point without retaliating for it's destroyed economy by
thoroughly destroying the us economy while it still can.

I think we'll soon be seeing humanity's first economical MAD event.

~~~
stale2002
> What will happen if they cut off the us entirely and force asian countries
> to cease trading with it

What happens when we do it to them?

China is powerful, sure. But they aren't more powerful than the western world.
We'll win that fight. (Well, by "win" I mean suffer less damages).

Western companies are also already pretty cut off from the Chinese market.
Cutting them off even more so is unlikely to have as huge if an impact as
people are predicting.

~~~
KaoruAoiShiho
Nah this is not true, we actually sell more stuff to China than the other way
around. They've just not yet really tried to retaliate.
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-12/the-1-4-t...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-12/the-1-4-trillion-
u-s-surplus-that-trump-s-not-talking-about) Tariffs hurt yourself first before
anyone else. But if shit really hits the fan they no doubt will.

~~~
stale2002
> They've just not yet really tried to retaliate.

You seem to be pretty uninformed on the matter. It is common knowledge that it
is extremely difficult for Western companies to operate in China.

This "retaliation" has been going on for decades. China can't really make it
much worse than what they have already been doing for decades.

~~~
DiogenesKynikos
You're constructing a narrative that puts history on its head. China has
allowed foreign firms to come in and exploit cheap Chinese labor. Foreign
companies have made enormous profits off of this. Not only do companies like
Apple benefit hugely from Chinese labor, but they have also found a market of
hundreds of millions of buyers of their product there. Foreign auto
manufacturers dominate the Chinese domestic market - VW is the best-selling
car brand in China, the world's largest auto market.

You're saying that China has been retaliating by giving foreign companies
access to cheap labor and hundreds of millions of customers. That's completely
backwards.

------
Mbaqanga
Wouldn't be more effective to target parts of their economy that hurts they're
most vulnerable members of society and spread from there? They could
potentially start a mainland revolt really forcing their hand.

------
anon34568911
Doesn't the trade war actually benefit all involved countries?

This could just be a hidden deal between governments to massively increase the
tax income under the cover of a trade war.

------
romeo1978
Using political means instead of fair competition in the market is not only
showing the hegemony of the US, but also showing that the US technology is not
confident.

------
de_watcher
Samaritan targets AI startups.

------
burgerc
I wonder how many of you actually have been to China and spent sometime there?

------
some1else
I wonder how much worse this is for US vendors, than it is for China?

------
trhway
if US wants to put pressure on and punish China, then instead of shooting
itself in the foot and everywhere else with tariffs US could have just offered
say 10K Green Cards (each coming with $1M resettlement bonus) to the top China
researchers&engineers in any industry in China that US would want to cripple
as a punishment. At $1M per such a top head it would be a steal for US, and
for China it would be a very painful damage. Rinse and repeat ... (Such a
solution comes to my mind as result of observing of pitiful state of Russia
resulting from the brain-drain (immigration as well as just tech heads
switching away into business/etc) it suffered especially during 199x)

~~~
mattnewton
I love this idea; it plays strongly into American strengths.

However, I don't know if China would be more successful in convincing it's top
talent to stay with their families, and I have no idea how to sell this idea
politically to American voters. The stereotype of Chinese culture is that they
tend to be more collectivist, and the stereotype of the general population of
American voters would most likely rather spend any money on Americans first.
For the later problem, it is hard to articulate concisely the roundabout way
this ends up causing brain drain, and the eventual benefits to the US
citizenry. It is much easier to sell "China did something bad, we will punish
them with tariffs" than "Chinese government bad, we will pay top Chinese
citizens to defect."

~~~
thereare5lights
We were basically doing that via universities until the anti-Chinese sentiment
shot up drastically in the past few years.

You can't turn the clock back. The anti-Chinese sentiment is very high now in
America.

~~~
mattnewton
I think it's certainly possible for a gifted politician to make the
distinction of Chinese people != Chinese government party. Not so much
"turning the clock back" as directing any anti Chinese sentiment.

------
killjoywashere
If you really want the Palantir of the Chinese, check out Novogene. Then ask
yourself why they have a CLIA- and CAP-approved lab in Sacramento. Then ask
yourself, what shameless, desperate, or just clueless physicians and
researchers are allowing their patients' genomes to be sequenced by an asset
of the Chinese Communist Party.

[https://en.novogene.com/technology/quality-control/lab-
certi...](https://en.novogene.com/technology/quality-control/lab-
certifications/)

[https://www.linkedin.com/company/novogene-
corporation](https://www.linkedin.com/company/novogene-corporation)

[https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Novogene-
Reviews-E1790104....](https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Novogene-
Reviews-E1790104.htm)

~~~
KaoruAoiShiho
As far as I can see everyone of importance is Chinese, the locals are all
sales and admin?

------
soheil
Legitimate question: at what point does censorship become something more
benign such as blacklist or sanctions? If we do it?

~~~
chronic71819
Censor: Highly targeted and specific, usually along the lines of
communication. Like Xi and Winnie the Pooh. The US doesn't censor(?)

Blacklist: Broader, usually applied to products and companies. China
blacklisted Facebook. The US blacklisted Huawei.

~~~
mijamo
Every state censors things in some way, he difference is what is censored and
how much impact it has obviously.

Censorship can also describe private actions such as Twitter/Facebook refusing
some ideas, and is that case is vastly vastly present in every country.

~~~
jayrot
> Censorship can also describe private actions such as Twitter/Facebook
> refusing some ideas,

That's only true in the vernacular. True "censorship" is only relevant to
government suppression. Individuals or private corporations are under no legal
obligation to _allow_ certain ideas/topics.

*That is to say, I could perfectly well create some new social network messaging app that specifically does not allow any posts about honeybees, screwdrivers, or Turkey. The government could not prohibit those topics.

~~~
mlyle
> Individuals or private corporations are under no legal obligation to allow
> certain ideas/topics.

(Though it does become problematic as communication channels are concentrated
in a few parties hands, which is why, in part, we have things like the common
carrier doctrine. In the end, if one party accumulates enough power and uses
it in a way that it is oppressive, whether that party is a government, a
warlord, or a corporation).

------
baq
South Park episode and NBA fiasco made it possible for the public to be
grateful for the move.

Or maybe it was planned to happen before another round of negotiations and the
timing is a... coincidence? Hard to believe in these anymore.

~~~
mijamo
I do not think this is a coincidence that tension between the US and China
raises every time Trump has political issues, just like Russia suddenly finds
ennemies when Putin faces discontent, or that Turkey fights kurds 10 times
stronger when Erdogan feels threatened.

Pointing an ennemy is a great way to get away with many things, and works very
well with all kinds of publics.

~~~
dmix
Obviously he wants to finish a deal w/ China before the elections so he can
use it as an example. Not everything is a conspiracy.

Not to mention he seems to permanently be in a state of political crisis with
his adversaries in the US. They've been rattling the impeachment sword since
he got in power.

~~~
onepointsixC
There will be no trade deal and this is not merely a trade war. We are in a
new cold war.

------
varjag
The art of caption…

> [..] some of China’s top artificial intelligence startups, punishing Beijing
> for its treatment of Muslim minorities [..]

> The decision, which drew a sharp rebuke from Beijing, targets 20 Chinese
> public security bureaus and eight companies including video surveillance
> firm Hikvision, as well as leaders in facial recognition technology
> SenseTime Group Ltd and Megvii Technology Ltd.

So Chinese palantirs get blacklisted, boo-f-hoo.

~~~
toby-
I'm confused what point you're making, here? Not trying to be rude, I'm just
unsure of your position. Are you implying this wasn't 'punishment' over
China's treatment of Muslims? Or something else? Or am I misreading
completely?

~~~
rogu
They likely mean since the list of blacklisted startups heavily (?) features
surveillance companies, this whole situation is no big loss to anyone
(presumbaly, the regular westerners as well as Chinese citizenry) as
surveillance = absence of privacy = Orwellian = no bueno.

~~~
toby-
Ahh, now I understand. That's the more sensible interpretation. Thanks.

------
ThinkBackTo
Given the enormity of their population, one would expect they would have
managed to come up with _something_. Honestly the world would be a far, far
better place if the entire Chinese nation were to disappear off the surface of
the earth.

(Edit: since Chinese trolls have been down voting me, I will reply here to the
comment below: clearly by the Chinese nation I was talking about the 1.3
billion in China. There shouldn't be any moral qualms in _their_ case.
Enlightened people and brainwashed people are not moral equals, just as humans
and chickens are not)

~~~
ETHisso2017
>the world would be a far, far better place if the entire Chinese nation were
to disappear off the surface of the earth.

Really? I find this argument hard to believe.

Also this is what I worry about. The US China conflict has a real likelihood
of becoming a full on race war against Chinese people in America, thanks to
sentiments like the one above.

~~~
dang
I appreciate the mildness of your response to that provocation, but it's a
garden variety troll whom we've banned many times. Please just flag and move
on.

~~~
ETHisso2017
I can't flag comments for some reason. Is there JS I need to load?

~~~
dang
For comments, you have to go to where the flag link appears. Please see
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cflag](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cflag).

It's done that way as a speed bump to discourage reflexive flagging. An old PG
trick.

------
derision
Have any other candidates expressed support for hardline Chinese policies?
Trump easily has 4 more years, but I'm not sure who can successfully keep this
going after that. I haven't paid much attention to the field, but I haven't
seen any news on anyone else making statements on the topic.

~~~
abootstrapper
> Easily 4 more years.

What planet do you live on?

~~~
dwoozle
Myself, the planet where a president with a stronger stock market and
unemployment than when he entered ~always gets re-elected.

~~~
the_gastropod
Maybe, you know, look at the stock market to see if that's true, instead of
just believing Trump's tweets about it...

~~~
scohesc
You should probably look yourself. From what I've been reading from financial
postings, the Trump administration has done many good things for the stock
market (for the people however is a different story)

Usually whoever keeps the economy going and doesn't harm it in anyway gets re-
elected for a second term.

~~~
the_gastropod
Please.. just go look.

Since his inauguration, the S&P500 is up 27.37%. At this point during Obama's
first term, the S&P500 was up 65.19%. Apples and oranges, true. Let's look at
the preceding 46 months before Trump's inauguration. Over that time, the
market rose 26.69%.

Anyone pretending the market under Trump is anything but "normal" is
participating in partisan hackery. Don't do it.

~~~
dwoozle
You’re mental if you think that this is normal. We’ve been on a huge bull
market since 2008. It’s not due to Obama or Trump but Obama got credit and got
re-elected and the same will happen with Trump.

~~~
the_gastropod
What’s the average annual return of the DOW since its inception? What’s the
average annual return been since Trump’s inauguration?

------
Merrill
I thought that "blacklist" was deprecated and that "denylist" or "blocklist"
were appropriate usages?

[https://developers.google.com/style/word-
list#letter-B](https://developers.google.com/style/word-list#letter-B)

~~~
gitgudnubs
You're racist for thinking that the word "black" used to refer to something as
bad is at all related to dark skinned people.

