
'The Expanse' Canceled at Syfy - _o_
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/expanse-canceled-at-syfy-1110985
======
TeMPOraL
I'm really pissed off about this. It was a really good show, based on a good
series of books. It's very rare to see _hard_ sci-fi in television, much less
one appealing to a wide audience. Also the VFX team deserves a shout out here,
as they managed to keep almost all visual effects physically accurate,
including sneaking in scientific details at points you wouldn't ordinarily
notice (like things heating up far behind invisible drive plume, sparks moving
correctly on a spinning station or inside a maneuvering ship, etc.).

From what I hear, the last hope is for Amazon to pick it up. Netflix
apparently is not interested. If this show gets cancelled, this will be a
_huge_ blow to both sci-fi on TV, and efforts to keep people interested in
realistic space exploration.

~~~
Reason077
Strangely, the Expanse was being heavily hyped by Netflix UK earlier this year
- but then Season 3 failed to make an appearance and now, apparently, Netflix
won't be getting it at all.

This makes me wonder if perhaps a deal with Amazon has already quietly been
done? It would be a great shame if the Expanse got cancelled. I think it's
genuinely the best sci-fi show around right now.

~~~
pasbesoin
In the U.S., "The Expanse" was picked up by Amazon Prime. It used to be that
the Amazon Prime web page(s) heavily promoted it in both the top banner
rotation of shows to check out and in the initially shown listings of shows
under various categories ("Popular TV Shows", "Noteworthy...", "Trending...",
whatever).

That's how I came across the show, after initially ignoring those placements
for a few months because I didn't know how good it was and I wasn't in the
mood for e.g. another "monsters" sci fi show (something I'd come to associate
the SyFy channel with).

So, I watched season 1. Not too long after, season 2 launched. Amazon Video
U.S. (integrated into the Prime video pages, or vise versa) had a "purchase"
option for "day after broadcast" access. I purchased it and watched it. I
don't remember how heavily it was promoted on the Amazon pages; I think there
was at least some promotion.

Some time later, I revisited, wondering about that status of season 3. It
turned out that U.S. Prime had picked up season 2. I was surprised as I'd seen
absolutely zero promotion to that effect. Maybe because I'd already purchased
season 2, but I'm far from certain about this.

Season 3 is now underway. And you can purchase "day after broadcast" access to
it on U.S. Prime. Despite having watched both season 1 and 2, and actually
paying Amazon for season 2, I've seen _not one instance_ of promotion or
listing of season 3, on U.S. Prime/Video web pages. Not one promotional email
from them. Nada.

I was rather surprised at this. Amazon endlessly nags me to purchase things
I'm not interested in (as well as a few that might interest me). And yet they
make zero effort to upsell me on something I've already purchased?

Draw your own conclusion. To me, it seems as if they are for some reason
actually actively hostile towards the show, now.

------
danr4
Such a shame if it dies. I love the realism of the show - just humans making
life hard for other humans.

Worth noting the producers are trying to find someone else to pick up the show
[0]

EDIT: There's quite the effort on the show's subreddit to rally fans to ping
major players like Netflix (who've pulled out apparently) and Amazon Studios
[1]. Join the fight :)

[0] [https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/05/syfy-has-canceled-
the...](https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/05/syfy-has-canceled-the-expanse-
but-its-producers-want-to-find-it-a-new-home/)

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheExpanse/comments/8iq1a0/renewal_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheExpanse/comments/8iq1a0/renewal_megathread_earthers_martians_belters_we/)

~~~
ianai
Whelp I contributed by buying the season and emailing Jeff. Here’s hoping.

------
archi42
Same news on other site [0] was posted last night but not upvoted (I believe).

Most important aspect, which is not discussed by the Hollywood reporter:

 _The cancellation decision by Syfy is said to be linked to the nature of its
agreement for the series, which only gives the cable network first-run linear
rights in the U.S. That puts an extraordinary amount of emphasis on live,
linear viewing, which is inherently challenging for sci-fi /genre series that
tend to draw the lion’s share of their audiences from digital/streaming_

[0] [http://deadline.com/2018/05/the-expanse-canceled-syfy-
after-...](http://deadline.com/2018/05/the-expanse-canceled-syfy-after-three-
seasons-to-be-shopped-1202388026/)

~~~
jjoonathan
For instance, nobody who bought it through Amazon counted towards SyFy's
numbers even though they certainly counted towards the profitability of
production. The people who actually finance production (not SyFy) said this:

> "... given the _commercial_ and critical success of the show, we fully plan
> to pursue other opportunities for this terrific and original IP ..."
> (emphasis mine)

so to my uninformed sensibilities SyFy dropping the show seems more like a
distribution hickup than an existential threat. At least I hope that's the
case.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Two days after that (i.e. last night), it turned out that sets are being
scheduled for deconstruction. So it is really an existential threat at this
point (if they tear down the sets, it'll add a big up-front cost for any party
that would like to pick the show up in the future).

~~~
jjoonathan
That does sound serious. There must be something I don't understand about the
SyFy relationship -- I'd think that the company who owns and finances the show
would decide when to tear down the sets and that they'd want to do it _after_
shopping the show around. Too bad, I liked the show.

~~~
TeMPOraL
It does sound as if Alcon knew it was coming, tried to shop around in secret
before, didn't succeed, and wrote the current announcement to sound like they
haven't already given up on the show. I hope I'm wrong about this.

~~~
jjoonathan
Yep, me too.

------
hawski
That's why I prefer watching short serials like Band of Brothers or just
straight series like Columbo or Star Trek.

Nowadays everyone wants to grab your full attention so they produce serials.
When you're finally hooked on the story thanks to the neverending thread mill
of cliff hangers and further unresolved mysteries they drop the show and leave
you hanging. Because numbers ain't right, they show the audience the middle
finger. The audience is upset, but not enough to recognize a vicious cycle
that hurt them previously many times.

That's one of the reasons I don't intend to watch the new Star Trek serial. Or
will watch a serial after it is naturally finished.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
I too miss the self-contained-episode quality of TV shows. It gave viewers the
ability to jump in and leave at any point in the series and still be able to
follow what was going on (usually). And is it just me or do these modern
serials just seem to stretch everything out to fill the season? I think that's
part of what makes them un-re-watchable, because in most episodes basically
nothing happens.

Some shows demonstrated that you can balance long-term plot arcs with the
self-contained episode format really well, and I wish more shows would do
that. One that comes immediately to mind is Stargate.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Yup. Stargate was perfect. I don't like series with fully self-contained
episodes, because those tend to not have any overarching plot. But I also
don't like the new trend of running as many plot points as you can in
parallel, which don't get resolved for half a season. I think StarGate got the
right balance (and I miss the show very much).

------
DrBazza
Hopefully Netflix picks this up - especially when the new series of Lost in
Space is just full of idiotic decisions to line up the next absurd episode,
and Altered Carbon plods along at a snails pace and uses nudity to gloss over
the dull bits.

The Expanse is the best sci-fi series on TV by far at the moment, especially
due to it having a good plot, a sweary UN woman, and mostly obeys the laws of
physics.

The Siffy channel is rubbish anyway. Netfix has more sci-fi to watch.

~~~
enraged_camel
Altered Carbon is excellent. It’s also a very different kind of show; more of
a crime-drama that takes place in the far future than an actual sci-fi show.

~~~
matwood
Agreed on Altered Carbon. Some of the nudity is gratuitous, but most is not. I
know the clone room scene was on some of the news sites, but why wouldn’t
clones be naked? In a future where sleeves are changeable vessels, I would
expect nudity, body image, etc... to be very different from today’s values.

~~~
antisthenes
Today's _American_ values. The attitudes toward nudity are different even
today.

------
laurencei
If you check out the show on Rotten Tomatos it has a tomato rating of 90% with
an average audience score of 95%.

That seems really high to then cancel the show?

I'm guessing the problem is it is highly loved by a small group of
individuals? But given Sci-Fi in general is a wide enough demographic for many
other shows - it seems strange this is not drawing in the ratings?

[1]
[https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/the_expanse/](https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/the_expanse/)

~~~
Hendrikto
Have you watched it? It’s not bad... but not really good either. Much better
shows were cancelled in the past.

~~~
baxtr
Yeah, I stopped watching once the paranormal stuff started. Why can’t we have
just realistic SciFi?

~~~
Aaargh20318
As someone who has read the first 5 books in the series, there is not a single
paranormal thing in the Expanse.

~~~
thousandautumns
SPOILERS

I’ve only read the first 3 but thats definitely not true. FTL communication,
physics-defying space maneuvering, the giant space ring thing controlling the
speed of the surrounding armadas...

Even if there are attempts to create some explanation for it, in a hard sci-if
story, it’s basically paranormal in all but name.

~~~
Aaargh20318
In this story there is nothing supernatural about any of these things. They
may be things that are as of yet unexplained, but just because we don't
understand them yet doesn't make them paranormal. Just like there was nothing
supernatural about flying before we understood how it works. It's just physics
we haven't figured out yet.

Paranormal are things that are by definition outside the explainable universe.
It's not that we don't have an explanation, it's that they are by their very
nature unexplainable.

------
kyriakos
Netflix has worldwide rights except USA. Amazon has US streaming rights. The
production is done by Alcon entertainment who should either find another
network or convince one of the two streaming giants to foot the bill. I don't
think it's not going to continue.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Alcon said they're looking into it. The next day, the news broke that sets are
being scheduled for disassembly, starting tomorrow. So I'm not sure just how
honest Alcon was with that announcement, given it was only two days between
those two pieces of info.

The current info from people involved seems to be that Netflix is most likely
out as a candidate, but Amazon still might pick it up.

(All of that sourced from /r/TheExpanse, which I read regularly.)

~~~
kyriakos
That's sad to hear hope it's just a false rumour

~~~
TeMPOraL
I'm really hoping it's Fake News, but the source is (apparently) the props
master of the show[0]:

Quoting for Facebook-averse:

> _We need to act fast. The sets are coming down starting Monday with some
> assets being sold off to Star Trek Discovery or just scrapped._

> _the entire crew in Toronto is heartbroken and gutted. It’s going to be hard
> to wrap the show for good. We all thought it was coming back for sure. It’s
> an incredible show to work on._

When asked for source:

> _I’m the Props Master on the show for the past 3 seasons._

In a comment to another post[1], he said:

> _I work on the show. Amazon was very interested in the project and wanted to
> stream it. They need a show like this. Netflix is out. Don’t waste your
> time. Amazon is our only hope. Lobby them. Hey need to know it will have a
> following. Show them it does!!!!_

\--

[0] -
[https://www.facebook.com/groups/154567691728757/permalink/38...](https://www.facebook.com/groups/154567691728757/permalink/384700638715460/)

[1] -
[https://www.facebook.com/groups/154567691728757/permalink/38...](https://www.facebook.com/groups/154567691728757/permalink/384886505363540/)

~~~
edkennedy
Set strike has been delayed until Wednesday as per a source from the VFX team.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheExpanse/comments/8j830i/netflix_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheExpanse/comments/8j830i/netflix_and_amazon_and_sets_and_such/)

------
Sharlin
I like pretty much everything else about The Expanse, but honestly, the crew
of the _Rocinante_ are just... unsympathetic. Forgettable. They could
basically be killed off and I wouldn't care. Seeing that they're
(intentionally) a microcosm of the system at large, with better writing their
interactions could meaningfully reflect and comment on the tensions between
their homeworlds, while still making me care about them as individuals and,
indeed, as a crew.

Crisjen Avarasala is pretty much the only interesting main character in the
show.

~~~
_wmd
Could not agree more. I still wonder what their motivation is to stay together
and make each decision that puts them in ever more dangerous situations, that
part was poorly developed.

I've been skipping every Holden/Nagata scene for the entirety of this season,
it's pure filler and so utterly tedious to watch, excluding it entirely would
have caused no damage. If it is supposed to help explain the crew's motive,
well, it doesn't help with that at all. I'd have thrown myself out an airlock
in preference to remaining aboard with such utterly wooden personalities

Would love to see a lower budget breakout series of Avasarala just doing her
ninja politics stuff -- she is the main reason I kept watching at all. But
perhaps that is just the corner of me that misses Babylon 5 :)

~~~
TeMPOraL
Have you read the books? I personally don't mind most of the scenes you
mention, but that's probably because I know where they're going. Like - minor
spoiler - Nagata's mention of her child in last episode. Sounds mostly
irrelevant and ham-fisted if you're only watching, but if you've read the
books, you know this is introducing a _really huge_ major subplot. So maybe
one of the problems of this show is that it's not tuned enough for people who
don't know the source material?

> _Would love to see a lower budget breakout series of Avasarala just doing
> her ninja politics stuff -- she is the main reason I kept watching at all.
> But perhaps that is just the corner of me that misses Babylon 5 :)_

Me too. Avasarala carries this show by herself. And I miss Babylon 5 too. I
wish someone would remaster and re-release it.

~~~
peatmoss
Regarding the remaster of B5: It’ll (probably) never happen.

Star Trek TNG was the first and probably last analogous show to get the
remaster treatment. The issue is that, even though the acting was shot on
35mm, post production and VFX all happened at broadcast resolution.

TNG essentially redid the entire post production to bring us updated visuals.
By the time CBS/Paramount got around to considering DS9, the financial cost of
remastering TNG, plus the move for many people to Netflix, meant expected
DVD/Blu-ray proceeds.

DS9 never got the TNG treatment as a result. B5 is in the same boat, needing
totally redone postproduction and CG. B5 was a niche show, and the remaster
would be an expensive and herculean task. In short, we’ll probably never see
it done :-(

~~~
TeMPOraL
:(.

God damn it corporations, you aren't making any money off those old shows
anyway. Just give them up to public domain, let the fans do the work for free,
and find a way to reap the benefits of revived popularity of the franchise.

(Alas, the current owners of Star Trek rights seem to be actively _hostile_
towards fan productions.)

~~~
peatmoss
Yeah, I think it would be AMAZING if the B5 rights holders would turn over the
reels to a film archive who could then digitize and release those materials to
the public domain.

I have no doubts that the fan base would give B5 the remaster it deserves.

DS9 too. TNG was the Star Trek I grew up with, but having rewatched all of the
Treks in recent years, DS9 is the clear stand-out in terms of quality writing.
DS9 deserves better as well.

As for fan productions of Trek, it’s true Axanar got some bad treatment. Star
Trek Continues, on the other hand, managed to do what they set out to do.

------
ivanhoe
Too bad, I really enjoyed how Shohreh Aghdashloo portrayed Avasarala, she made
that character so much more interesting than it was in the books originally.

~~~
Arete31415
She's one of those actresses like Jeanne Moreau...she could read the phone
book and I would be entranced.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I agree. I'm very happy I picked the books up only after watching S1 - that
way, my mental image of Avasarala was sourced from the books, and all the
_lovely_ lines of that character were read with Shohreh's voice in my head.

------
lchengify
> Season two, which returned more than a year later with a significant
> marketing push and a solid lead-in, was down 24 percent among total viewers
> and averaged 457,000 total viewers. That compares more to similar returns
> for Syfy's inexpensive co-productions like Dark Matter and Killjoys, than to
> the cabler's original scripted series like The Magicians and Happy.

I'm a huge fan of both The Expanse and The Magicians, but if the above quote
is true I can see where they're coming from. The Magicians is a far more
accessible show than The Expanse, and if I have to decide where to stick
marketing dollars I'm going to go with the show with the larger audience.

Also, although I love The Expanse, it is not nearly as compelling as BSG or
Firefly. When BSG came out 14 years ago it was really a singular experience in
terms of cable TV. I would say something like Westworld follows more in the
footsteps of BSG than The Expanse. And Firefly tapped into the same energy as
Guardians of the Galaxy but 15 years too early.

Overall, very sad but not surprised. At least the TV show got me reading the
books...

~~~
ghaff
Re: accessibility

Many people on sites like this probably don’t appreciate the very limited
ability and desire for most people to get into shows that effectively require
serial viewing, careful watching, and even reading subreddits etc. to fully
grok everything going on.

I like this sort of show in principle and I’ll still get back from my current
trip to having to get back into who everyone is and what’s going on assuming I
bother with the series now canceled.

Agree about BSG and I also like Westworld even with the issues I have. Firefly
was a fun romp with appealing characters. I never found it especially good SF
though.

------
grizzles
Welp. How do we save this show? I'll join any crowdfunding platform.

~~~
bantunes
You can try requesting Netflix have them on for season 4
[https://help.netflix.com/en/titlerequest](https://help.netflix.com/en/titlerequest)

~~~
techterrier
netflix have ruled themselves out already:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheExpanse/comments/8iyzrs/amazon_i...](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheExpanse/comments/8iyzrs/amazon_is_our_best_option_for_a_pick_up_lobby/)

------
techterrier
love this show but it seems the commercial arrangements are a total mess with
just about everyone having a small piece of it somewhere such that nobody made
any money off it and nobody can give it up either. So nobody gets it after
syfy predictably walked away.

Infuriating shame.

~~~
bencoder
In the UK netflix have the rights, but for some reason it doesn't show up on
the service until months after the season has finished on syfy.

Meaning most of my friends who have Netflix ended up pirating it.

I waited until season 2 showed up on netflix last year, but if it's being
cancelled anyway I don't see much point in waiting this year.

~~~
_stephan
People obtaining the show from other sources before it is released on Netflix
might be a reason for the show not doing well enough on Netflix to be worth
picking up. Plus the marketing probably was only half-hearted, since Netflix
doesn't own the US streaming rights.

~~~
XorNot
Netflix need to ditch the binge format streaming and support weekly releases.

That would let them do same-time as US releases globally, which would mean
people could engage with the online communities of these shows.

~~~
Xylakant
Netflix does support weekly releases. The latest Star Trek for example was
released weekly.

~~~
caf
Yes, The Good Place came out weekly on Netflix too.

------
eponeponepon
I'm actually not too cut up about this - I really enjoy the show, but I'm also
starting to get tired of series that get run into the ground long after they
should have been tied off and finished. If the third season has a decent
ending, I'll be happy.

~~~
TeMPOraL
While I feel similarly in general, I don't think this was a risk in this
particular case. The show is backed by the books, which have enough high-
quality source material to last another 4-6 seasons. As long as they kept
mostly sticking to that, I wouldn't worry about the quality.

------
oaiey
End of season 3 is a key decision point (the expanse in the expanse :)). Stop
it there or finance another 6+ seasons. I really hate it, but it is the right
point in time.

~~~
gutnor
And there are still the books for the people that really want to follow. The
divergence from the book are not big in season 1 and 2.

I have not read the rest of the series, but there is a risk of change of tone
of the series from close to realistic to more fantasy space opera setting.

~~~
oaiey
They are great. And it stays realistic. They even age significantly. Holden
and the crew are in their fifties in the later books.

However, IMHO the tone changes. But not from realistic to fantasy but from
black noir to western to horror to military style story telling.

~~~
avian
I found weird alien physics tricks in later books well beyond realism. The
“spaceship speed limit” thing in particular. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I
remember it was kind of inconsistent, applying to some objects and not the
others as it fit the plot.

~~~
TeMPOraL
It was consistent AFAIR, though it _dropped_ at least once during that book.
For those who haven't read (spoiler), the "spaceship speed limit" refers to a
particular region of artificial space, where there was an alien object whose
defense mechanisms involved capturing everything moving faster than a set
limit relative to it. That limit was adjusted by the object based on perceived
danger, and if you happened to cross it, you'd be slowed down without any
regard to what sudden high deceleration does to you.

Personally, I _liked_ the protomolecule stuff, and my biggest complain was
that there's so little of it in the books. 90% of the writing involves bog-
standard real physics, and the protomolecule trickery only shows up
occasionally.

------
transfire
I have given up on TV shows. I imagine many others have too. I no longer
bother to watch them until I know there is a completed story. Nothing worse
than watching a show and it just ends on a cliff hanger never to be resolved
because the show got canceled. I don't think production companies realize how
much they hurt themselves in the long run, because they are too busy looking
at short-term figures.

------
qwerty456127
Definitely one of the best TV series ever.

------
alexeiz
'The Expanse' went from really exciting in the first season to really boring
in the second season. I watched the whole first season at once, but couldn't
handle a single episode of the second season.

------
ddtaylor
it's not common to see a TV show here on HN, what's different about this show?

~~~
kchoudhu
There are few hard sci fi shows on television right now -- having this
cancelled is a pretty big blow to a type of entertainment that a lot people on
this board take very seriously.

------
sjg007
A spin off show based on Detective Miller would be awesome.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I'd much prefer a spin off show based on the Investigator (not introduced in
series yet, but I think about to be in E7) ;). But I would love a Miller
series too.

Most of all though, I'd love an Avasarala spinoff.

------
YeGoblynQueenne
>> That limited the upside for the cable network, making live and linear
viewership imperative.

I have no idea what all that means. Could someone please translate?

------
shmerl
TL;DR: Obsolete distribution methods hamper creators. SyFy can't distribute
the series through the Internet directly to viewers for some weird reason, and
it prevents them from making a profit.

I don't quite get why they had to sign such weird contracts to begin with.

~~~
dragonwriter
> TL;DR: Obsolete distribution methods hamper creators.

If by that you mean cable TV, apparently Amazon wouldn't pay for the full cost
of the show (or even enough with Netflix buying non-Us streaming rights), so
it wasn't for SyFy being will to pay (apparently, too much, ultimately) for
the rights to distribute it via an obsolete method, it wouldn't have been
produced at all.

> SyFy can't distribute the series through the Internet directly to viewers
> for some weird reason

“Amazon has purchased the exclusive rights to do that (in the US, Netflix
elsewhere)” is not a particularly weird reason.

The problem here isn't obsolete distribution mechanisms, it's that the sum
total people are willing to pay for it is less than the people that make it
are willing to accept to keep making it.

~~~
shmerl
See here: [https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/05/syfy-has-canceled-
the...](https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/05/syfy-has-canceled-the-expanse-
but-its-producers-want-to-find-it-a-new-home/)

 _> The Expanse, based on a series of popular novels by a duo of authors who
write under the pen name James S.A. Corey, was critically acclaimed and
beloved by fans, but it was expensive to produce, it delivered poor on-air
ratings, and critically, Syfy had only first-run linear rights. In other
words, the network did not have the OTT (over-the-top: streaming and other
digital distribution as opposed to broadcast air) rights. For a show like The
Expanse, OTT viewing is key for long-term revenue. The show was only made
available on cable television or by purchasing episodes or season passes on
digital storefronts like iTunes and Amazon._

 _> is not a particularly weird reason._

I'd say it is. Exclusivity harms creators and users too, who can't access the
result in stores and ways that are convenient to them. In the ideal world,
Alcon Entertainment would make the series and sell it in every Internet store,
including their own DRM-free option :)

 _> that the sum total people are willing to pay for it is less than the
people that make it are willing to accept to keep making it._

No, people are willing to pay enough, but distributors should stop hampering
competition with exclusivity restrictions. No exclusivity means wider reach,
which means more profit for creators to do their work.

------
scanr
I hope Netflix picks this up. I really enjoy the Expanse.

------
imagetic
Well this sucks.

------
neals
Netflix, do the right thing

