
Dell bets big on Ubuntu Linux laptops for developers - CrankyBear
https://www.zdnet.com/article/dell-bets-big-on-ubuntu-linux-laptops-for-developers/
======
pedrocr
Given the state of GPU drivers on Linux someone may end up capturing a bit of
this market by launching a great AMD CPU+GPU laptop with a good Zen 2 APU or
CPU+GPU pairing. These days you end up having to choose good drivers but poor
performance (Intel) or good performance but poor drivers (Nvidia)[1]. The
open-source AMD drivers are supposedly finally good and Zen 2 a great CPU on
the desktop. So I'd love a Lenovo X1 Carbon with AMD for my next laptop[2].

[1] Before anyone comes in to defend Nvidia, the closed-source drivers may be
great for you but the closed-source nature of them means you have to jump
through some hoops to install them and some things will simply not work
properly (e.g., actual Wayland support)

[2] Bonus points for 1) ECC RAM 2) 32GB+ total RAM 3) 2 or more full-speed SSD
slots

~~~
neogodless
EDIT: OP corrected comment - read below only out of idle curiosity!

Minor fact-checking / naming correction.

The CPU core architecture progression has been Zen, Zen+, Zen 2.

The retail consumer desktop and laptop CPUs have been designated Ryzen 3,
Ryzen 5 and Ryzen 7 with model numbers to help guide you on performance, but
starting with a 3 (e.g. 3800X) in desktop CPU indicates Zen 2, while a 3 in
mobile or desktop APU indicates Zen+.

Current laptops are based on Zen+, including examples of Ryzen 5 3500U (low
power/15W) and 3550H (medium power/35W) and Ryzen 7 3750H (high end).

Many of us are excited for the release of Zen 2 based laptop chips, though!

~~~
CoolGuySteve
The generation gap within mobile and desktop Ryzens of the same leading digit
model number is really atrocious marketing. Almost like AMD is trying to take
advantage of people by pretending mobile is a generation ahead.

What purpose does it serve?

~~~
chao-
The purpose is to position products in a way that avoids a negative
impression, in a manner that might impact sales. I would not be surprised to
hear that OEMs view this quirk product positioning in a positive light. It
doesn't take much to imagine a customer thinking to themselves "Why are the
laptop CPUs only in the 2000's when the desktop CPUs are in the 3000's? I'll
wait and buy later."

So AMD wants to position the current-best available products in each market
segment as the current generation numerically, branding-wise, without respect
to manufacturing process details. Most consumers don't know what a "process"
or "architecture" is anyway. Then the nerds who track these things, such as
ourselves, will complain, but we won't be fooled by it.

If that seems to you like taking advantage of people, then yes, that is
exactly what they are doing.

Intel dodges this problem (at least for the last 4-5 years) by shipping their
mobile SKUs on a new march or process first, and the nerds waiting on DIY
Desktop parts their "8th Gen" or "9th Gen" or whatever later.

------
mh8h
I wonder what it takes to have more than 16GB of RAM in these "for developers"
laptops. I really like the form factor and the fact that it works well with
Linux out of the box, but I am sure I will regret buying a laptop with 16GB of
soldered memory in 2019.

~~~
bachmeier
I'd like developer laptops to max out at 2 GB of RAM and have really slow
single-core processors. Then I wouldn't be subjected to software written for
machines with 64 GB of RAM and the latest high-end Intel processor.

~~~
chrisseaton
This is a silly attitude - it can take 8 GB of RAM to _compile_ an
application, which then _runs_ happily in 2 GB.

~~~
asdff
clusters are cheap and apple charges $200 for 8gb of RAM

~~~
atomicity
By using a remote machine, you gain in upfront cost but you lose dev time due
to poor tooling. It's possible to use X11, SSH, SSHFS, or Kubernetes but it
never truly replaces the flexibility of developing locally with an IDE.
Kubernetes tooling _might_ get there in the future though.

If you have a team at work dedicated to the tooling problem, remote dev can
become really nice though.

------
vzaliva
I applaud Dell for supporting Linux on their hardware. Their main contribution
should be open-source drivers for their hardware included in major Linux
distributions.

That said, I would not use their pre-installed Linux because of security
concerns. I would certainly install one myself, with full-disk encryption.

------
kgwxd
They'd win quite few more if they fought for open drivers and firmware from
the big names as well. There's a lot of people trying to make that a thing,
but support from Dell could really push things forward.

~~~
wmf
AFAIK the tg3 driver exists because Dell fought Broadcom for it, although that
was years ago. Probably even Dell isn't big enough to budge NVidia.

~~~
kgwxd
But AMD maybe? I think they're big enough that if they started doing it,
NVidia might consider doing at least a branch of products that had open
drivers.

~~~
wmf
AMD already has open drivers. I suppose Dell could apply more pressure by
shipping laptops with AMD GPUs instead of NVidia.

------
pbhjpbhj
So what stops Dell from making all their systems Linux friendly. Why do you
have to faf with "Secure Boot" just to install an Ubuntu on an XPS15?

It's it Microsoft crippling things (technically or legally) or are Dell not
capable (technically, or otherwise) of making the install of Linux work in a
straightforward manner ... or what?

Does anyone else do it better? How do Lenovo compare, say?

~~~
blihp
With Dell it's mostly a marketing exercise since they don't really write any
of the software or drivers, they're just packaging the products (hardware and
software) that others produce. They are no different than most of the other
major PC manufacturers in this regard. (some of the smaller specialty Linux PC
companies do go at least a bit further than this)

You can get Linux running on the vast majority of PC (desktop and laptop)
models. There's value in this sort of bundle for people who want to buy a
Linux machine with components known to have driver support and/or don't want
to be bothered with installing and configuring it themselves.

~~~
thesmok
They don't even replace Windows key graphic with something like Super or Tux
icon. Feels like a low-effort job.

------
paulcarroty
> Up to 16GB of LPDDR3 memory at 2133MHz

Excuse me, what year is it?

~~~
asdff
2020 in cupertino

------
colmvp
A few months ago, I was looking for a laptop with Ubuntu pre-installed since I
was interested in learning ROS but was pretty disappointed that most of the
options available were either 13 inches or clunky/ugly laptops.

I ended up buying the XPS 15 and just installed Ubuntu alongside pre-installed
Windows 10. It wasn't without hiccups but thankfully those who came before me
posted their solutions on how to fix some of the issues, namely the Wifi card
not being supported.

All in all, for my basic needs of coding C++/Python and using ROS, I'm pretty
happy with my decision.

~~~
Bubbadoo
Aside from the Dell battery issues, the XPS 15 is a workhorse that runs linux
flawlessly. I had some bluetooth messiness but was able to resolve it playing
driver bingo. You'll be happy.

------
dlivingston
Specs and spec configurations are only a small piece of what makes a good dev
laptop. Is it ergonomic and lightweight? Is the trackpad large and the
keyboard comfortable to type on for extended periods of time? How tightly does
the hardware integrate with the software (i.e.: can I use multi-touch gestures
on the trackpad to move through my environment quickly)?

Say what you will about Apple and how they treat developers (read: not well),
but the modern MacBook Pro (sans touchbar) is truly a great dev machine.

~~~
llampx
Macs are not really that great anymore. Between the keyboard, price and lack
of upgradability, you have to have a pretty flexible definition of "good for
developers" to choose one over even a Windows laptop with WSL, let alone a
Ubuntu one.

~~~
infecto
I think everyone is going to have a different opinion on this but aside from
the keyboard fiasco I think Macbooks are still a good option. I agree you
cannot upgrade them, but honestly all I can ever see wanting to upgrade is
memory but hell, if I Just go with 16gb from the gate I cannot see the need to
upgrade in the lifetime of the machine. Its a couple grand but going to last
me a while. Linux laptops are still a little flaky for me. I have experienced
a couple in the past year and its still not as streamlined as I want. I just
don't care about configuration and fine tuning it. WSL is far from ready but I
think maybe the Pro version of WSL will yield better results. I think there
was still some configuration steps for me that were a little janky especially
since I like to use Jetbrains editors. I think PyCharm now does a better job
of supporting WSL but again, not as streamlined as I want. Not sure what kind
of "developing" you are doing but Macs still work.

~~~
benologist
It's a couple grand but that used to be OK cause you could sell the machines
years later and previously they held their value well. Now the free keyboard
program only covers the machines for 4 years from the date of purchase, after
that they're not going to be worth much. Demand for these Macbooks will
probably be tied closely to the lack of alternatives too and disappear
quickly.

------
dmix
Is there a reason why it's limited to XPS 13 and not XPS 15? Is there a
problem supporting the NVIDIA graphics cards on Ubuntu or something?

~~~
wmf
The Precision 5540 developer edition is an XPS 15 under a different name. And
yes, it supports 64 GB RAM.

~~~
Lio
Never quite understood why the branding is so complicated.

It would seem easier for Dell to market a single product range that all have
good Linux support.

That would seem to give them better good will. I know nothing about marketing
so maybe there’s some reason I don’t get.

------
j88439h84
I have an Ubuntu XPS 13 for some years, I like it.

------
enriquto
Dell is the only major vendor that ships laptops with linux preinstalled
(Lenovo anounced linux thinkpads in 2019 but unfortunately it was a lie).

Yet, linux support along the Dell product line is extremely sparse. Between
the inspiron 3000 and the xps 13 there is a huge, windows-only gap.

~~~
ajacksified
fwiw, I just bought a Thinkpad X1 Extreme Gen 2 and Ubuntu 19.10 worked right
out of the box - even wifi and proprietary nvidia drivers. I was _very_
surprised. I haven't tested the fingerprint scanner, but I don't use
biometrics, so I can't speak to that.

~~~
enriquto
Yes, thinkpads work great with linux. But if I'm going to shell out more than
4000 EUR for a top of the line P-series, I just don't want to end up with a
laptop that does not hibernate or throttle correctly. For that, it is
essential that the vendor provides a pre-installed OS with all the
functionalities.

------
Havoc
Surprised at all the people complaining about the 16GB. This is a 13 inch
ultrabook...

~~~
chrisseaton
I find it pretty hard to squeeze my day-to-day programming work into 16 GB
these days, and this says it's specifically for developers.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
But you're ok with a single 13" screen?

~~~
chrisseaton
I can physically do my work on a 13" screen. I physically can't do my work in
16 GB (well I'm exaggerating a little, but we're getting close these days.)

------
miiiiiike
The aluminum enclosure is gorgeous and the hardware is great.

I wish they would ditch the chintzy plastic interior tho. I would pay double
for a new MacBook Pro if it supported Ubuntu and had a reasonable keyboard. I
miss my old 2011 model.

------
ACow_Adonis
I always say this in the vain hope that someone at Dell listens/hears, and I
admit I haven't checked since buying my last one.

But please, PLEASE, make them for sale in Australia! I want xps laptops! I
don't want windows!

------
grumpy-cowboy
Hint for Dell: just ensure that your hardware works perfectly in Linux
(drivers) and please don't add any ^(bloat|crap)ware[s]?$ to it.

I have a Dell Precision 7530 laptop with an I5 CPU, 64GB of RAM, AMD GPU, 3
SSD M2 drives... I installed Ubuntu 18.04 (from Ubuntu site) and it's the only
distrib that work perfectly out of the box with an external monitor, suspend
mode, ... :)

Note: I tried Linux Mint (issues with external monitor, suspend mode, ...),
Parrot Linux (doesn't work at all) and others without any success.

------
bythckr
Considering many developers that run Linux on a MacBookPro, I am sure they
will buy a dell if it can bring the right quality & is more affordable. The
main thing would be high iFixit score.

Even as a mac user, the apps I use daily run on linux as well but its '0'
tweaking that I have to do, is what keeps me with Mac. Basically, my laptop is
my tool to get my work done. I would like to focus on my work rather than
focus on managing my tool.

------
ajudson
They should put a lot of money into improving the touchpad experience for
Linux. I bet that for many people that is the last sticking point to moving
from a Macbook.

~~~
supercommand
This this this.

Remember windows before the precision drivers? Linux touchpad stuff today is
where windows was a decade ago. This is a fundamental portable use issue that
has to be tweaked with each distro and machine.

Hand a Linux machine with a clean install to any non tech person and they will
ask if your trackpad is broken. It is.

------
economyballoon
Does Dell gets paid from Canonical to install Ubuntu?

Why not OpenBSD, Debian, FreeBSD or Arch?

In my opinion we have to do more to free driver source code. To use Ubuntu
does not support this I think.

~~~
blaser-waffle
Most/all of the laptop drivers are in the kernel and would be universal, or
mostly universal, with other distros. I don't really care if Canonical or Red
Hat or Theo de Raadt paying for it, since it will almost certainly be
comparable with other distros and would be free of the Windows Tax; if you
don't want OpenBSD or Unbuntu then just install something else. Plus you can
do the SHA1 sum when doing your own install and know it's a valid ISO from the
source.

------
modzu
bought a brand new kit-out macbook the other day. the right arrow key gets
stuck already. wtf? and then forgot my dongle at work, no watching hockey on
my tv :( seriously, this thing is a shell of the beautiful machine i bought in
2015. but i am pretty excited that my next laptop could be linux! system76
please learn aluminum! ;)

------
wil421
Where are these Linux XPS’s on Dell’s website? Windows is the only option for
13 and 15 inch XPS. If I search Linux I only see an XPS desktop and some junk.

How’s the track pad? Track pad and MacOS is still far ahead of the
competition. Despite all the backlash Apple gets for TouchBar and Catalina
it’s still miles ahead of the competition.

~~~
vonmoltke
[https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-
notebo...](https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-
notebooks/xps-13-laptop/spd/xps-13-7390-laptop?appliedRefinements=302)

Note that you need to choose "For Work" in order to get the option for the
Developer Edition with Ubuntu.

~~~
nottorp
The Linux laptops aren't available everywhere outside the US sadly.

~~~
MegaDeKay
They are available in Canada, for one...

[https://www.dell.com/en-ca/work/shop/laptops-
ultrabooks/sr/l...](https://www.dell.com/en-ca/work/shop/laptops-
ultrabooks/sr/laptops/xps-laptops/ubuntu)

~~~
blaser-waffle
There is? There is an Ubuntu button on the bottom right but using it to filter
laptops doesn't bring anything up for me. Other filter options work fine; I'm
in Alberta.

~~~
MegaDeKay
Does this work for you, for example?

[https://www.dell.com/en-ca/work/shop/laptops-
ultrabooks/xps-...](https://www.dell.com/en-ca/work/shop/laptops-
ultrabooks/xps-13-7390-developer-
edition/spd/xps-13-7390-laptop/cax13w10p1c607buca)

Under tech specs, it will say "Operating System: Ubuntu 18.04, Linux -
Included in price".

~~~
nottorp
Yes but shipping from Canada doesnt help me

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CyberFonic
I cannot find Linux laptops on Dell's .com.au site. Never have in the past
either. Has MS totally pwnd Oz?

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big_chungus
So when am I going to get a linux driver for my XPS fingerprint reader? Still
doesn't work too well. Dell also still ships killer wireless cards, which
generally don't work as well with linux drivers as, say, intel. Though this is
probably also because killer cards are just junk.

~~~
bengalister
I second that. I own a XPS 13 9380, running archlinux and it is pretty much
the only thing I am missing from Windows. I bought the Windows XPS 13 version,
just in case I had issues with Linux. There are currently no drivers for the
Goodix fingerprint reader under Linux. I miss that it is quite useful.

I tried the Linux equivalent of Windows hello, i.e, howdy with the infrared
camera but it does not work well for me and is not as secure.

Dell must fix that situation.

------
kristianp
It irks me that you can't select 16gb of ram with an i5 processor, the page
automatically selects the i7. That's just greed on Dell's part. Microsoft does
it too with surface last I checked. Lenovo's X1 Carbon doesn't force that
choice on you thankfully.

------
davidw
I have one of these and am very happy with it. It works well and is a nice,
compact computer.

The only real fiddling I had to do was disable the lame 'windows sleep' that
kills the battery quite quickly.

------
holri
What non free software is required to run all the hardware?

~~~
blihp
The main things are CPU microcode updates, GPU drivers and wireless
LAN/bluetooth drivers. But on some devices (don't think this applies to the
Dell models in question) if you get into an esoteric hardware configuration
you could also have proprietary drivers for things like high speed wired LAN,
storage chipsets/devices, audio, fingerprint readers etc.

This is typically stuff you can get on your own usually by downloading drivers
from the manufacturer's website and either extracting firmware from their
Windows drivers or downloading a Linux-specific driver package, if available.
All Dell is doing is collecting it all up and pre-installing/configuring it
for you.

------
simlevesque
I just want a AMD GPU in one of those...

------
RenRav
I always appreciated their dell.com/linux page.

~~~
enriquto
curious that a few linux laptops are not shown on this page

------
internet_user
How are Dell's keyboards?

I'm not optimistic.

------
osiaq
Deja vu

------
jrcii
I like OpenBSD. I issue a 'ps -ax' and can see a short list of processes which
I understand the purpose of, I feel like I understand more or less how the OS
works without being a systems/kernel programmer.

When I do the same with Ubuntu I get a massive list of processes, most of
which I don't understand or recognize. I'm back to the Windows feeling that
the OS is a transcendent black box, but now with no Microsoft Office, power
management, and display (esp multi-monitor) bugs.

I love the idea of Linux but it seems like the less practical option.

------
deedubaya
> Up to 16GB of LPDDR3 memory at 2133MHz

You mean, starting at 16GB of memory, right?

