
Problems with Firebug - indy
http://remysharp.com/2010/05/28/why-firebug-sucks-more-than-ie6/
======
dasil003
I see the author's point, but the thesis is linkbait that can't even vaguely
be considered true for anyone that is building modern websites with IE6
support. I have lost some time to some of these bugs. However if you compare
the amount of time lost to Firebug bugs and vs IE6 support, it's still heavily
skewed to IE6. The fact is that not everyone can know every bug in IE6, and
though it's not too hard to avoid the big well-known issues, you may end up
cutting design and interactive features or write a lot of ugly workarounds to
deliver comparatively simple features. Additionally there are many subtle
issues which become exponentially difficult to debug and isolate because the
environment is so utterly opaque (admittedly I haven't tried Microsoft's
commercial tools which I've heard actually have some utility, but I'll be
damned before I pay a Microsoft tax just to debug for their hopeless broken
software).

Firebug bugs are easier to deal with because there is more information and
controls with which to isolate bugs. I admit they can catch you off guard from
time to time, but as someone who cut his teeth on javascript in 1995, CSS in
the IE4/NS4 era, I can tell you that IE6 is the bigger albatross around your
neck. It's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

~~~
silentOpen
Isn't it hilarious that Microsoft found a scheme where, even if they couldn't
dominate the WWW, they are still relevant because of the ubiquity of their
"embraced and extended" web browser. No, Microsoft, you don't need to actually
innovate, just have the most popular operating system and shove a broken
browser down everyone's throat.

Microsoft: screwing you with network effects since before the WWW

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ConceptDog
Wow..

The Firebug team created a product that moves web development a generation a
head in terms of tool sets, then released that tool for free when most people
would have gladly paid for it.

It's free, and open source. If there are bugs, stop bitching, roll up your
sleeves, and submit a patch.

~~~
natrius
There's no need to choose between bitching and patching. You can do both.

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rudd
Sure, Firebug may in fact have bugs. However, a sometimes buggy program is
better than one with fundamental flaws. IE6's rendering errors have cost
developers thousands of hours in finding and fixing problems, because everyone
runs into them, whereas Firebug has only ever been an aid to developers,
running into bugs only occasionally. In all the time I've been using Firebug,
I've never encountered a bug. In fact, I've encountered more bugs with
Chrome's dev tools, in that it seems to have stopped displaying XHRs in the
console.

Firebug may suck compared to an ideal Firebug, but IE6 sucks compared to the
standards-compliant browsers that everyone else has moved on to.

------
NathanKP
I have been using Safari for web development because of its great developer
features. It has a DOM inspector, a resource tracker for tracking slow
requests, even AJAX requests loaded after the page completes, a script
debugger and a profiler and local database inspector. And best of all, no bugs
that I have found yet.

I have heard that IE8s developer tools are also very good compared with
Firebug.

It will also be interesting to see how Chrome shapes up as far as developer
tools go.

Unless you just don't want to leave Firefox, or are using a strictly linux
system, you might get better results doing your development in a different
browser. At least that is what has worked for me.

~~~
gthank
In addition to the standard WebKit developers' tools, there is
[SpeedTracer]([https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/ognampngfcbddbfe...](https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/ognampngfcbddbfemdapefohjiobgbdl)),
which is pure awesome.

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Batsu
Firebug definitely has it's ups and downs, but in no way can I believe the IE6
mention is anything other than linkbait (right near the end, he says he's
moving to Webkit's debugger).

The most common problem I've run into with Firebug is that Firefox stops
loading CSS/JS files. I've never had this happen without Firebug open, but it
may be a Firefox problem.

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jameskilton
Chrome / Webkit's Dev Tools are so far and away better than Firebug, if you're
not giving it a try you're doing yourself a disservice (especially since
Chrome is officially stable on Mac _and_ Linux now). The only thing missing is
the ability to plug in extensions (like YSlow) but otherwise I never pull up
Firefox anymore.

~~~
thorax
Ok, I give up. How do I get the style editor to work like Firebug so I can
test/tweak styles on the fly? I'd assume you wouldn't be advocating this if it
has a read-only style inspector, so where am I missing a way to modify those?

The live style tweak is by far the most used feature in Firebug for my team.

~~~
boucher
Use a text editor? This seems to be the thing people say they like most about
Firebug compared to the WebKit tools. I don't get it. Is the cost of a refresh
really so high? There are dozens of editors with built in auto-refresh/live-
preview too.

~~~
masklinn
The cost of one refresh no, the cost of a dozen refresh and the associated
context switches as you swap between your browser and your editor yes.

Usually when you're editing stuff in Firebug it's because you're trying,
nudging a pixel here, a shade of gray there, trying to get the "right" values
to yield the effect you want. Having to go back to the editor is a pain, just
as it was before in-browser debuggers, when you had to go back to the editor
and add alert() traces all over it.

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masklinn
> # Using jQuery to log out the elements sometimes shows an array like object
> (perfect) sometimes shows an object with a length (crap)

The jQuery object is exactly that. An object. With a length. What do you want
Firebug to do, build jQuery support in the extension? Yeah, right.

And as to not having random extra plugins, I see at least 3 non-native firebug
tabs in the first video...

Not saying firebug is ideal or anything, but some of TFA's criticisms barely
make any sense (and that comes from somebody mostly using Safari's dev tools
these days)

~~~
kls
_What do you want Firebug to do, build jQuery support in the extension? Yeah,
right._

I would be awesome if someone did build the concept of profiles so that you
could set firebug to do Dojo, or JQuery or YUI etc.. deep debugging in a
manner that suits that toolkit.

~~~
masklinn
It would also require far bigger a developer base for Firebug, they're barely
keeping up as is (in fact they really aren't if you'd believe TFA and most
commenters)

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amalcon
Apples and oranges? This is akin to comparing gdb with vim: sure, you use them
both to develop software, but they're used for different parts of that
process.

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moron4hire
I really love the IE8 and IE9 developer tools. Chrome's aren't as good, but
still better than Firebug.

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adamc
While I wouldn't say it sucks more than IE6, it is very true that Firebug
changes frequently and has plenty of bugs. All the web developers I know gripe
about it (but still use it). The stage is ripe for a better tool.

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jasonkester
I think we're going to see FireFox go the way of Opera in the next few years.

They had a great start, and forced Microsoft to release IE7, but since then
they've just sort of coasted along. MS came out with IE8, which turned out to
be a pretty good browser. Then Google came out with Chrome, which redefined
what a browser is supposed to be like.

So now we have FireFox still taking 30 seconds to fire up and basically
functioning like a poor version of IE8 (but with plugins), while IE9 is coming
out looking exactly like a Chrome clone and Chrome is sprinting off into the
distance (yet still firing up in 3 seconds).

FF just seems to lose a bit more relevance every year.

~~~
DuncanIdaho
All valid points.

But I can't really see myself moving on to other browsers...

Just because of 2 plugins:

1\. Mouse gestures, OK - Chrome has them now but now the second one is a
gamebreaker. 2\. TreeTabs - I just cant browse without it anymore.

I'd really like to move on to Chrome, but without TreeTabs - I'll just suffer
the loading times :)

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jcromartie
I've started to use the WebKit browsers for this sort of work now. The tools
in Safari/Chrome are just much nicer to use now.

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acg
Not only is these problems difficult to reproduce this post is highly
irritating. I find the attitude ignorant.

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bartl
The original post is gone. I see no reason to keep the link here on HN.

