
Delivery workers are keeping California fed. They say no one’s keeping them safe - rachelschnalzer
https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2020-03-28/coronavirus-delivery-workers-sick-leave-protection
======
DoreenMichele
There was a recent article on HN about nurses being evicted from their homes
for being nurses because of the pandemic. So it's really honest to god not
just gig workers who are getting shafted here and treated like "lepers" so to
speak.

Some of the stuff described in the article is really unfortunate and all too
often an outcome of a large bureaucracy. That doesn't make it okay. They need
to come up with better procedures and err on the side of making sure people
don't deliver while infected and that they get any sick pay they deserve.

Supposedly, there's a stimulus package coming out that may help give some
people relief as well. And I think we need a whole lot more emphasis on
preventative measures generally for this pandemic.

If the US had universal healthcare, this would be less of a problem. If we
solved some of our other issues, like our housing supply issues, this would be
less of a problem.

Blaming the distress these workers are experiencing entirely on the fact that
they are gig workers isn't reasonable. That's just one piece of the picture
here.

~~~
humanrebar
> ...all too often an outcome of a large bureaucracy

> If the US had universal healthcare, this would be less of a problem.

Italy's socialized healthcare apparently didn't cut it. There are plenty of
examples of the existing U.S. healthcare bureaucracy royally screwing up in
the covid response.

Do I'm not buying the logic that an even bigger bureaucracy is the solution to
Kafkaesque bureaucracy, at least not for this problem.

I especially don't understand people who are railing on the responses of Trump
or BoJo also arguing that the U.S. president should be even _more_ in charge
of this sort of thing.

~~~
DoreenMichele
In the US, the borked healthcare system is a root cause of poverty. That's
where universal health care would help with this. There would be fewer people
living hand to mouth.

~~~
cmurf
In the U.S., healthcare is a product, not a right. Just like many other
things: education, clean water, police, justice. Public versions aren't
supposed to meaningfully compete with the private versions, because
competently run public institutions constitutes a threat to the idea a) free
markets are inherently superior b) classism is good.

On the one hand classism purports to be a motivator: if people just work
harder, they can improve their class standing and buy more stuff; on the
other, it's just a variation on aristocracy: some people are better than
others, and they are wealthy people, it's an indisputable fact of their
superiority that they can buy more and better versions of the basic things
that we claim form a civil society.

If public institutions are incompetent in a democracy, how is it the culture
isn't also incompetent? Incompetency and aristocracy are not civil
institutions, yet we've managed to institutionalize them both by just making
excuses for them.

------
erpellan
The really stupid part is that keeping the delivery workers safe is ALSO
keeping the wealthy consumers (and owners of those businesses) safe!

If you're holed up at home and SARS-CoV-2 strolls in your front door on the
outside of your toilet paper then you might as well have just taken the risk
and gone shopping yourself! Such painful short-sightedness.

~~~
pixl97
That said, it's a lot easier to take precautions on surface contamination
versus aerosol contamination.

------
fergie
Thats the whole point of creating a precariat: rich peoples lives get safer
and easier, poor peoples lives become less secure and harder. The system is
working as intended. Three cheers for the gig-economy!!

~~~
DoreenMichele
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

I doubt that the birth of the precariat was consciously and intentionally
master planned by anyone. In some sense, that's attributing too much
competence to the upper classes to think they could mastermind such a plan.

In another, it's calling them more deeply and comically idiotic than they
merit because even rich people are scared here lately of what is going on in
the world. At least some of them wish they could figure out how to stamp out
the economic instability we have and they just can't figure out how on earth
that works.

It's hard to design good systems. It's much easier to design a system that
does some of the things you want while overlooking a lot of important details
and thereby fostering a lot of unintended consequences.

~~~
pdkl95
> I doubt that the birth of the precariat was consciously and intentionally
> master planned by anyone.

It was consciously and intentionally create, but the planning is usually
obscured behind euphemisms. Nobody directly says they are trying to make
employment more precarious; they say they are making a new type of business
that is "more efficient".

> unintended consequences

The consequences may not be _intended_ , but pretending they weren't obvious
results of a new design is gross negligence. The long term economic impact and
its secondary/tertiary effects on society of a "gig-economy" business
"disrupting" a traditional employer are hard to predict. The fact that it
would make a lot of people's employment far more precarious is not only
_obvious_ , it's the core feature that differentiates the new type of
business.

~~~
DoreenMichele
I began doing gig work while deathly ill and homeless. It was the only kind of
paid work I had access to and the world absolutely wasn't throwing money at me
out of compassion for my terrible sob story. (I have a genetic disorder, no
criminal record etc etc so I'm one of the clearly "unfortunate and deserving
poor.")

I happen to work for a service that is well designed and gives me control over
the things that matter to me. It also has a low barrier to entry but doesn't
have a low ceiling. It's possible to make a middle class income this way.

So I'm quite convinced that efficiency isn't simply some polite euphemism for
"fuck you." I think it's possible to design gig work platforms that work well
for the workers.

I'm hardly the only person on the planet for whom many regular jobs are simply
out of the question.

I think the efficiency gains are real and can be managed in a way that is good
for all involved parties.

I think gig work can be the next industrial revolution where we make it
possible for ordinary people to have some of the things historically reserved
for the jet set.

Because my income was portable, I was able to take a train to another state
and get back into housing in a cheaper state than California. For many poor
people, that's unimaginable. They would need to look for a job in the new
location, which would mean having no income for a time because, say,
waitressing jobs don't hire you from out of state typically.

I got to work as much or as little as I chose. It was dictated by my health to
a large degree, which was enormously frustrating, but it meant that when I was
feeling better, I could immediately earn money again. I didn't have to job
hunt.

For me, gig work was nothing short of a miracle allowing me to have some
earned income under circumstances where that should have been simply
impossible.

So, sorry, I don't think so.

~~~
raws
I don't think you can use your own anecdotal case to disprove a huge societal
movement affecting tens of millions when in some cases the current market
offerings albeit inflexible in some of their aspects and need a revamp already
exist and cover the great majority of the market ie: cabs vs uberlikes.

Edit1: Could you clarify, I'm curious as to what kind of the jet set class
items would be accessible at the entry level or not so far high in the gig-
econ?

Edit2: Also I do not mean to say that the gig-econ does not offer economical
sustenance or reinsertion for workers that cannot endure more classical jobs
but they're the great minority in these kind of jobs but that is just my own
opinion and read on the market

~~~
DoreenMichele
I had portable income and the freedom to go where I wanted more or less at
will.

My case doesn't prove that millions of people aren't being given a raw deal.
It just indicates that gig work doesn't have to be a raw deal and it is
possible to design systems that work well.

I've tried to promote that idea in the past. It didn't really catch on. Most
people basically agree with you and feel that I'm some bizarro statistical
outlier and not really an example of how to do this well and what we should be
aiming for.

As long as the people creating startups generally agree with you, we will
continue to see more gig work that craps all over the workers. I don't think
it has to be that way. I don't think it should be that way. I see enormous
potential for gig work to make the world a better place.

But the world is probably not going to stop being a shitty place full of
shitty people just because I'm capable of envisioning something better
sprouting from the muck. Most likely, such visions will continue to be crushed
under the boot of those in power and continue to go nowhere fast.

Same as it ever was.

 _Edit2: Also I do not mean to say that the gig-econ does not offer economical
sustenance or reinsertion for workers that cannot endure more classical jobs
but they 're the great minority in these kind of jobs but that is just my own
opinion and read on the market_

I've seen data that suggests that up to 60 percent of people are at least
moderately handicapped. Most downplay it and don't want to wear the label
"handicapped" or "disabled."

Such people benefit enormously from having more control over their lives, such
as when, where and how much they work. This is one of the things rich people
tend to have more of than poor people and I think it has substantial impacts
on health, productivity and quality of life.

But it's like 4:30 am where I am and I hope to sleep soon, so I don't care to
drone on at great length about this topic, though I no doubt could.

~~~
lm28469
> I began doing gig work while deathly ill and homeless.

> 60 percent of people are at least moderately handicapped. Most downplay it
> and don't want to wear the label "handicapped" or "disabled." Such people
> benefit enormously from having more control over their lives

I don't know you nor your story and this isn't a comment about you personally,
but writing that kind of sentences with a straight face to defend the gig
economy is such a weird thing. You shouldn't have to work while "deathly ill",
you shouldn't need the gig economy to survive while handicapped.

~~~
DoreenMichele
I really hate dealing with comments like this. I've already written and
deleted one upset reply.

With 60 percent of the population impaired to some degree, it doesn't work for
the world to say "Only the hail and hardy people should work."

I didn't qualify for disability. I still don't.

I had a corporate job. I quit it so I could prioritize my health.

Like many people, my job was harming my health. In contrast, gig work allowed
me to get healthier.

This world does not usually reward you for having a good sob story. That's not
how that works.

Saying impaired people shouldn't have to work and from there arranging a world
where they aren't allowed to work is a nightmare scenario where any defect
cuts you out of the system entirely.

When I was a homemaker, I couldn't get good drugs to treat my condition. I was
bedridden and being treated like a hypochondriac who got off on cadging
antibiotics for funsies.

Then I got a proper diagnosis. The following year, with appropriate
accommodation for my condition, I attended an eight week GIS Summer School.

Halfway through, the air turned yellow, probably from sulfur from a factory,
and I began reacting anaphylacticly anytime I set foot outside.

I had borrowed $19k to attend. Failure was not an option.

A doctor put me on eight prescription drugs so I could finish the program.

Twenty-two months of drug withdrawal followed. And it saved my life. All those
drugs were a turning point in my condition.

People don't really try to help sad sacks live. They don't really try to heal
the sick or have compassion for the poor.

But they will dope you to the gills because you have a job to do.

Working -- on my terms -- saved my life.

Maybe that's not a good thing. It's a shitty life in a shitty world full of
shitty people and I routinely wish I had died instead.

But working was the only viable option I had for so very many reasons. Telling
me I shouldn't work is like telling me to go die in a fire for having been
born with the wrong genes.

~~~
livueta
> Saying impaired people shouldn't have to work and from there arranging a
> world where they aren't allowed to work is a nightmare scenario where any
> defect cuts you out of the system entirely.

This really struck me. There's an interesting stain of American progressivism
that sees a bad situation and, in earnestly attempting to address it, makes
the problem worse. See the death of SROs and various forms of actually
affordable housing: a veneer of compassion justified restrictive zoning
("nobody deserves to live in conditions like that!"), but without a suitable
replacement occupants often just ended up on the street. Same effect with
asylums: horrible abuses spurred public interest in dismantling them, but
absent a replacement you just end up dumping the patients on the street
without their meds. Sex work? Nobody should have to sell their body to
survive! Therefore, let's persecute Backpage and force sex workers back out on
the street where they can't meaningfully vet clients! Oh...

There's a pattern here. This history makes me apprehensive that well-
intentioned (or not, just wearing the mask) attempts to reform gig work will
end up being a huge fuck you to the people actually impacted by them. That's
not to say the gig economy doesn't enable abuses - it absolutely does, but any
action should at minimum involve a lot of genuine consultation with those
affected and, preferably, address root causes rather than symptoms, e.g. a
workable solution to lack of job-provided healthcare probably shouldn't
involve reenforcing our already-fucked system of employer-provided healthcare
serfdom.

~~~
DoreenMichele
I got off the street by moving into a 100 year old SRO. I had a nightmare just
last night about being evicted.

They've essentially outlawed gig work in California. I left California to get
back in housing. I spent three years researching where I could move to make my
life work. There isn't any place else I can go. If I get evicted, I'm screwed.

I can't go back to California and wouldn't want to, but no place else has
similarly dry, temperate weather. Washington is much colder and wetter.

I have no car and no driver's license. If my life cones unraveled, there isn't
another town where I can make it work.

The pandemic is causing a lot of homeless shelters and soup kitchens to close.
They've also closed coffee shops and restaurants and libraries. There's no
place for a homeless person to go sit and eat, plug in and get on the wifi.

If I got evicted, I would be facing a nightmare situation with no solutions.

I'm trying to chalk the dream up to insomnia and stress, but I grew up with
really poisonous ideas that "if you dream it, it absolutely will come true"
and I'm completely freaked out today.

We've spent decades tearing down SROs and not building anything that works as
a viable solution at that price point for people. Then we claim our homeless
problem is just a bunch of junkies and isn't about a lack of affordable
housing options.

It's nigh impossible to live without a car in the US. Gig work is one of the
few things that worked for me while the entire world was all too comfortable
metaphorically stepping over my body in the gutter.

I've spent a lot of years fighting the good fight while getting no real
support and being told it's somehow my fault my life is in the toilet. I've
spent years trying to educate HN about reality for the masses in this country
and being told there is no housing crisis, it's just a personal problem, the
homeless are all junkies, get a real job, etc.

When the pandemic first hit, my life was only minorly impacted. I already live
like a hermit because of my medical situation and I already do remote work
even though I'm dirt poor and not one of the privileged few.

But if I got evicted, I'm not sure I wouldn't just kill myself. It looks so
impossible to cope with at this point and the world doesn't want to change.
Everyone is in a hurry to get back to "normal" and it's like, hello!, Normal
isn't working well for a lot of people and is probably why we have a pandemic.

But no one is going to listen to me. I've tried to promote gig work as a
solution for homeless people and lifestyle interventions for health issues for
years and been dismissed as a kook. I can't get traction.

I think our problems could be solved. But I'm beginning to think they won't be
solved.

The world would literally rather die than take advice from me and I'm not
seeing other sources providing better solutions. I'm finally starting to get
very concerned.

~~~
saganus
I wish there was something meaningful I could say or do to help you.

I've read your posts over the years and always found them interesting and well
written. It has changed the way I look at homelessness, even though I'm not
from, or live in, the US.

Just know that, for what it's worth, you have at least made one person change
their mind.

I know it's not much and it won't solve any of the issues you have, but I
really hope things work out for you. I won't say "everything will be ok"
because I don't know if they will be... but I hope I can at least warm your
heart or make you smile for a few seconds while reading this.

I really wish for you to find the strength, luck, light at the end of the
tunnel, or however you wanna call it, to pull through this situation.

You have obviously poured a lot of energy and well articulated and informative
thoughts into this forum and I'd like to at least thank you for what I've
learned from them.

Godspeed Doreen.

~~~
DoreenMichele
Thank you.

------
altmind
with the food-industry people cannot afford healthcare for themselves and made
to work, to get the means to live, I'm very scared to order anything from any
prepared-food establishments. the chances of getting contaminated food are
incredibly high, esp if you order smth not thermally processed.

~~~
netfl0
> the chances of getting contaminated food are incredibly high

Source?

~~~
bamboozled
Why do people keep asking for a source to back up pretty straight forward
statements. Was that an unusual or surprising statement?

It would seem like common sense at this stage that if someone with an
infectious disease sneezes on your raw salad leaves or your cold lasagna,
you're probably getting it too no?

If you think the OPs comments are important, maybe you could also go verify
this information yourself and post back if you find something worthwhile
refuting the original claim.

~~~
netfl0
I clarified which statement I wanted a source for. It was a surprising claim.
I had not heard about contaminated food.

------
onetimemanytime
strike, ask for more money and protection. F the rest. Placing the life on the
line for less than living wage, just not worth it.

~~~
DyslexicAtheist
in some cases they might not have a choice. One of my friends is a nurse at
the largest hospital in Croatia which has so far not too many cases and
they're still bracing themselves for what happens when they reach capacity.
They're not allowed to speak up about what's happening inside the hospitals or
complain - they are in fact threatened with prison if they decide to speak up.

Despite this 2 nurses have tested positive but are asymptomatic. They aren't
allowed to stop working as long as they don't develop strong symptoms. To add
insult to injury there are no PPE and even if there are limited quantities
available they're not allowed[1] to use it due to rationing. Visiting a
hospital right now can be deadly if you're not certain to be positive already
or if not in a life-threatening condition. I'd imagine it's similar in many
other undeveloped or poor countries.

[1] in Croatian [https://www.medicinskasestra.eu/2020/03/25/medicinske-
sestre...](https://www.medicinskasestra.eu/2020/03/25/medicinske-sestre-
anonimno-maski-i-zastitne-opreme-nema-ili-nije-adekvatna/) images from article
OCR'ed and google translated:
[https://pastebin.com/nVXTdDgT](https://pastebin.com/nVXTdDgT)

~~~
zamadatix
I think they were referring to the delivery drivers in California the article
talks about not nurses in Croatia.

Regarding the bracing situation (outside of going to jail for talking about
it) that does seem to be the effect everywhere. Heavily rationed PPE,
mandatory overtime, PTO cancelled.

------
neonate
[https://archive.md/bhHpl](https://archive.md/bhHpl)

------
vkou
The great part about the flexibility afforded by participating in the gig
economy is that gig workers can't get unemployment, and you don't have to
provide them with health insurance.

That was the major innovation of the last business cycle. It's coming home to
roost in a truly spectacular way over the past month.

~~~
humanrebar
Before gig delivery workers, all I could get delivered was on behalf of
Domino's or UPS. It's a complicated question to answer, so it's probably
rhetorical, but if delivery workers needed to work full time and get
significantly higher compensation, would we even have the same magnitude
delivery service we're talking about here?

~~~
empath75
Maybe we shouldn’t. The companies don’t make money and the workers are getting
shafted. What’s the point of it?

~~~
humanrebar
Some local restaurants are still getting income from delivery for one.

