
Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism for 16-inch MacBook Pro - bjoko
https://www.macrumors.com/2019/07/25/kuo-16-inch-macbook-pro-scissor-keyboard/
======
weiming
Now if only they could also get rid of the TouchBar. Most frustrating
"feature" ever as I keep accidentally pressing some parts of it while resting
my hands or typing. Not to mention that I don't look down at the keyboard area
as I type.

Keep the TouchID button, get rid of the rest, just like the current Airs.

~~~
robbyking
I really thought the Touch Bar would grow on me, and now a year or so later
it's just as frustrating and unintuitive as it was on day one.

My wife and I rarely watch television, but when we do it's on our MBP. There
literally isn't a way to adjust the volume on full screen video using just the
keyboard; you have to exit full screen mode (to revert the Touch Bar to its
default set of buttons), and _then_ adjust the volume slider (which is still
another screen deep).

It's infuriating.

~~~
dkthehuman
If you go to System Preferences > Keyboard, you can change the "Touch Bar
shows" option from "App Controls" to "Expanded Control Strip" to have the
default set of buttons showing all the time.

~~~
bhl
Default keys won’t prevent the touchbar from freezing or bugging out, which
has occurred multiple times for me. It’s odd to make such important keys
software based and prone to non mechanical failure.

~~~
EForEndeavour
I wonder what fails more often, the touchbar or mechanical keys. In any case,
though, the touchbar is the anti-feature nobody asked for.

~~~
cassianoleal
I've had a TouchBar MacBook Pro for about 2 years now. The TouchBar has frozen
or crashed on me multiple times. Apart from the terrible butterfly keyboard on
this same computer which also tends to fail, literallyt never in 35-ish years
using computers I had a mechanical key failing on me.

------
brianpgordon
> Negative public opinion, multiple lawsuits, and ongoing issues with all
> keyboards in Mac notebooks released since 2015 have led Apple to launch a
> keyboard repair program that applies to all Macs with a butterfly keyboard,
> including 2019 models.

Kind of glossing over the rather important detail that Apple's keyboard repair
program entitles you to an exact replacement of the same broken-ass keyboard
design that caused your issue in the first place. If I remember correctly,
they won't even upgrade you to their later-generation butterfly mechanism; if
you go in with a membrane-less 1st-generation keyboard, that's what you get as
a replacement.

~~~
CDSlice
I think that because the keyboard is connected to the logic board it is
literally impossible for Apple to give you a newer keyboard without also
giving you a logic board for a later gen pro which won't work with the later
gen MacBook. That's also (part of) the reason why repairs are so expensive,
most of the parts are connected into a few large chunks that have to be
replaced all at once.

~~~
dpau
Completely Apple's own fault, too. A rating of only 1 on iFixit's "Laptop
Repairability Scores":

"The top case assembly, including the keyboard, battery, speakers, and Touch
Bar, is glued together—making all those components impractical to replace
separately."

[https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability](https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-
repairability)

~~~
theturtletalks
Apple was also one of the first companies to solder in the RAM so it couldn’t
be upgraded. I miss being able to make my laptop significantly faster without
upgrading it completely.

~~~
viraptor
There are still companies which allow that. Support them instead.

------
flocial
I actually got used to the 2018 MBA butterfly despite my initial dislike and
hesitation. That being said, I'm grateful for all the lobbying to improve
butterfly keyboards because I got a much improved version with a replacement
program in case one of these horrific ghost finger bugs or malfunctions occur.
I definitely would not have bought this MBA if it had the same butterfly
keyboard as a MacBook or pre 2017 MacBook Pro.

I just hope that the next incarnation of scissors keyboards or whatever
mechanism they adopt doesn't go through another multi-year cycle of defective
hardware, denials and silent upgrades.

I wonder if this move will trigger people who prefer butterfly keyboards or
only know butterfly keyboards if and when it gets released.

------
kemar
Now drop that f-word TouchBar and I'd buy a MacBook again!

------
iicc
Butterfly Keyboard Mechanism Illustration -
[https://theengineerscafe.com/butterfly-
keyboard/](https://theengineerscafe.com/butterfly-keyboard/)

~~~
weiming
For anyone curious to compare, an animation of a mechanical keyboard switch:
[https://www.cherrymx.de/en/mx-original/mx-
brown.html#techSpe...](https://www.cherrymx.de/en/mx-original/mx-
brown.html#techSpecs)

Click on top of the page for other switch types.

~~~
brianpgordon
Gotta flex my (amazing) Topre keyboard, which is "mechanical" as well but
works on a totally different capacitive touch mechanism:

[https://i.imgur.com/SnfIDbe.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/SnfIDbe.jpg)

------
lambdasquirrel
Can we get MagSafe back too? The thinness thing went way too far.

~~~
randomsearch
MagSafe caused fires.

~~~
dbcurtis
How so? What is the mechanism?

~~~
randomsearch
Don’t know why I got downvoted. This happened a lot in the 00s, including to
someone I know.

[https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/arstechnica.com/gadgets/2009/...](https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/arstechnica.com/gadgets/2009/05/apple-
sued-over-reputed-fire-hazard-of-magsafe-power-adapter/%3famp=1)

------
chrischen
They’re most likely getting rid of it (if they do) because of the high failure
rates, rather than for any other reason. The keyboard works fine when it’s
working—it just constantly fails due to dust.

~~~
mikhailt
It's not likely dust because if it was, there would be random key issues but
most people report similar keys (E for an example).

This redditor's research should explain why it is not likely the dust and why
Apple is having a hard time pinpointing it on the first few tries;
[https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/bjw4js/macbook_pr...](https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/bjw4js/macbook_pro_keyboard_failures_why_apples_dust/)

I'd place my bet on the metal materials they use; which is why they've
replaced it in the 4th retry.

~~~
randomsearch
It’s dust.

~~~
hombre_fatal
Nope, not just dust. :)

My keycaps came off because I don't hit them square on, and perhaps I'm a tad
more aggressive than most (emacs + vim user). It put stress on the two
C-clamps at the top of those keys and they weaken their grasp before
ultimately breaking from wear. I'm on my third keyboard replacement, the exact
same keys failing first (ERTSDF). 2017 Macbook Pro.

I am familiar with the dust issues. And I yearn for the days where those were
my only issues. Now I can't even type without having to put keycaps back on to
keys.

~~~
randomsearch
Parent post said if it were dust, the keys would be randomly affected. Which
AFAICT (after discussing with Apple store employees) is indeed the case. Some
keys are slightly more prone to dust, eg the space bar because of its size,
but any key can fail.

Your concern is I’m sure valid, but orthogonal to the post I was replying to.

------
SamReidHughes
The butterfly mechanism is fine, as a class of mechanism, it's Apple's
implementation which pushes the limits of sound engineering. It's perfectly
possible for that kind of keyswitch to have large travel and a good actuation
threshold.

~~~
randomsearch
The problem is that dust gets trapped underneath it.

------
Gravityloss
Reminds me of the VAG TSI problems - people avoid VW, Audi, Skoda and Seat
gasoline cars with those engines from around 2007 to 2013 (don't remember the
exact years).

------
schpaencoder
Perhaps they aim to get rid of the keyboard completely, replacing it with a
haptic feedback capable device and a glass plate with the keys inscribed?

~~~
visarga
That would have all the pleasures of typing on a table, hitting your
fingertips on a hard surface. Try it.

~~~
ajconway
I actually think that there might be something to it. The current keyboards
already have a small key travel. A solid-state keyboard with “taptic” feedback
from individual keys could feel ok.

~~~
munificent
The current haptic feedback on the touchpad works fine because all you need to
know is _that_ you pressed the touchpad, not _where_ you pressed it.

That's no longer true once you have a range of keys that you are pressing. You
need to ensure your fingers are properly aligned so that you press the key you
intend _before_ you press it. Without some actual structure, you don't get
that feedback.

------
hprotagonist
Just in time for me to start thinking about replacing my 2010 mbp!

~~~
mirekrusin
It still has iPhone slice, doesn't it? I'll wait with mine.

~~~
hprotagonist
I’m not sure what that is.

~~~
pazimzadeh
The Touch Bar. Makes more sense to call it iPad Slice though.

~~~
hprotagonist
I thought it was actually running watchOS.

[https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/28/13454052/apple-
macbook-p...](https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/28/13454052/apple-macbook-pro-
touch-bar-apple-watch-features)

------
Simulacra
The words “butterfly” and “die” never came together in my lexicon until I
encountered the butterfly keyboard

------
theonemind
With RSI, I don’t want more key travel.

~~~
mikhailt
Key travel isn't the single cause for RSI. I don't have RSI pain with a
mechanical keyboard with huge key travel for an example.

For me, key travel isn't the issue, it's the bottoming out impact. A lot of
people are hitting the bottom really hard, which actually increase the chances
of RSI.

My mechanical keyboard also has a soft bottom out so that I don't actually
have to hit anything, just gentle tap and it's all good. I can't actually
learn to tap gentle with low key travel like Apple's keyboards. Strangely, I
don't seem to have the same issue on the iPad's smart keyboard.

Apple keyboards are the worst for me with RSI, it hits bottom hard and it's
too thin.

------
florin_g
Could not Apple place the touchbar between touchpad and keyboard and leave the
function keys alone? That might please both camps and rid of controversy.

~~~
freehunter
Right where you might rest your wrists while typing?

~~~
florin_g
Not really. Wrists never rest between touchpad and keyboard.

------
hibbelig
I use Karabiner Elements to allow me to press and hold space while hitting
1234567890-= to get F1 through F12. I find this to be an acceptable
workaround.

------
drudru11
Too little, too late. Already switched off of Apple.

------
cosmosa
what is a scissor mechanism?

~~~
guessmyname
I searched _“wiki keyboard scissor mechanism”_ on Google [1] and found the
answer [2].

And since you didn’t know, you may find this comparison very helpful [3].

[1]
[https://www.google.com/search?q=wiki+keyboard+scissor+mechan...](https://www.google.com/search?q=wiki+keyboard+scissor+mechanism)

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_technology#Scissor-
sw...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_technology#Scissor-
switch_keyboard)

[3] [https://www.quora.com/What-precisely-is-a-butterfly-
keyboard...](https://www.quora.com/What-precisely-is-a-butterfly-keyboard-on-
a-MacBook)

------
Animats
Slow news day?

------
secfirstmd
I really wish Apple would stop messing around and give me a touch screen
MacBook.

------
purplezooey
If they made a cherry mx notebook it would sell like gangbusters despite
probably being heavier and thicker

~~~
nkristoffersen
[https://www.theverge.com/2015/1/5/7495073/msi-mechanical-
key...](https://www.theverge.com/2015/1/5/7495073/msi-mechanical-keyboard-
gt80-titan-laptop-ces)

Just to give you a sense of what you're asking for.

~~~
duxup
I used to carry a separate keyboard with my laptop for some classes I was
talking....I would do that again rather than use the monstrosity you linked
to.

