
"This community is available in the app" - swat535
https://www.reddit.com/r/mobileweb/comments/f2afvz/this_community_is_available_in_the_app/
======
thaumaturgy
Reddit has been a/b testing behavior like this for months. Multiple different
popups with variations on "view this in the app"; in some cases the popup is
on every single page load, sometimes only once. They started blurring images
on select subreddits with a message that you could only view the sub in their
app.

Okay, I know they're chasing one of two things here: a higher level of revenue
from the advertising they can embed in the app, or some app-download metric
that can be converted somehow somewhere to more money.

But for users like me, they have a couple of significant problems. First, that
if I were at all motivated to use their stupid app in the first place, I
would've already done, which means that these attempts to force the issue mean
they're _really_ scraping the bottom of the barrel, and ohwow that looks bad.

And two, I _don 't trust them_. There is absolutely no way I am ever going to
give them that level of access to my device just so I can browse their
website. And every step of their behavior here only reinforces my decision.
They aren't tempting me into using their app with irresistible new features
that really can't be provided by a regular ol' mobile website. Instead,
they're showing me just what kind of behavior I should expect from their app
by playing these dirty little games.

On the plus side, all this has caused my Reddit time to fall off a cliff and
I'm cruising through books at double last year's rate now.

~~~
Ozzie_osman
I worked for a company that did something similar (and is mentioned elsewhere
in these threads). We a/b tested it, and just from the metrics, getting
someone to download the app was so valuable from a stickiness perspective that
it _looked_ like it was worth the negative effects.

You're right though, from a user trust perspective it's pretty horrendous.
Regardless of whether that was measurable or not, there are things that are
just so infuriating to users that you shouldn't do them. I'd argue the cost in
terms of internal morale and employees' trust that we're doing the right thing
for our users, and their sense of pride in their work, way more than offset
any metrics gains.

~~~
samhain
I'm still quite a fairly active user on reddit going on a decade now. If they
started implementing this on a wide scale then I'd like to think I'd stop
using it completely. I've gone on a few hiatus during some of the
controversies regarding the degradation of the communities and values that
they original founders represented, think like 2014 during that debacle with
the office move, or the "good cop, bad cop" that was taking place with Pao and
her restrictions on what some communities viewed as free speech. As more
corporate interests and perhaps even governments take notice of reddit's
community impact, I'm sure that more restrictions will be implemented and
content watered down until it's hardly any different than facebook. At that
point I will hopefully have found and fully moved on to a better place.

------
blhack
What a strange thing to be this user hostile. When stuff like this happens,
people look for alternatives, and even if they don’t switch immediately, this
really erodes any loyalty they have to your brand/service.

I think Facebook is experiencing a similar thing. A frustrating amount of my
network has quit, which makes planning events more difficult (and is
frustrating). The difference for Facebook is that they have enough money to
just buy wherever people move to. Reddit doesn’t have that.

At this point I think a lot of people are actively looking for (and probably
finding) replacements. I’m actually surprised Reddit still makes their public
api so easily available without any keys. I wonder how long until somebody
just scrapes the content and uses that to help get over the network problem
and start a competitor.

~~~
sillysaurusx
An alternative to Reddit? It's a monopoly.

Where are you going to go? Voat?

They can be as horrible to their users as they want. As long as they have cat
pictures on the front page, nobody cares enough to change anything.

I think we're all getting exactly what is deserved by collectively allowing a
monopoly to form. (I'm not suggesting there should be legal action. I'm
saying, by the laws of exponential curves and popularity, monopolies naturally
form, and this is the result.)

~~~
hadlock
Reddit is the flavor of the month. It's been a long month, but before Reddit
there was digg, kuro5hin, plastic, something awful, slashdot.

Myspace was the flavor of the month. Now it is facebook/imgur/snapchat. But
before it was friendster, AIM, MSN, ICQ etc. Maybe next it will be Discord or
Son Of Discord.

The wheel continues to turn. I have zero faith Reddit will command the market
share it does today, in 2030.

~~~
KozmoNau7
Something Awful still exists and is still very active, last time I checked.

~~~
hadlock
Yeah and in 10 years both forums will still exist. Something Awful exists and
is active, but it's not in the cultural driver's seat the way it was in
2004-2009. But then Reddit (some claim, Twitter) came along and ate their
lunch and they've been in the back seat for many many years with slow to no
user growth.

------
holler
Whenever Reddit, or any other website, tells me to install their app, I make
sure that I never install their app.

In fact other than maybe 5 or less apps, I only use a browser.

~~~
fireattack
Reddit is one of a few websites that I feel dedicated app works much better
than browser, but I use 3rd party one(s).

~~~
bad_user
I don't agree, for one b/c Reddit is a links aggregator and opening links
works best in a full browser instead of a shitty in-app web view, plus it's
the little things like ability to copy/paste or go back to a previous page,
that are sometimes emulated in native apps, but never work well.

But even if you think Reddit works better in a native app for you, that's by
design. Reddit is making the web experience shitty on purpose, to drive users
to their app.

~~~
RuleOfBirds
"Reddit is a links aggregator" feels pretty inaccurate. Some subreddits,
especially the big and lowest common denominator ones may be mostly link
sharing, but most of the ones I'm on are communities sharing questions,
opinions, jokes, images, and stories.

~~~
tialaramex
Yup. Playing a difficult Minecraft pack the first stop is r/feedthebeast to
look at other people's advice. Later I'd return with questions most of which
will be FAQs. Example, last week I made Project Ozone 3's fluid container that
has an infinite amount of any liquid you put inside it. First question I had
was, how do I empty this to put something else in? Because if the answer is
"You can't" I need to pick very carefully what to use it for. The trouble with
the correct answer "Shift left click a Gauge Dropper in the UI" is that I
thought I'd tried that. So did lots of people, but Reddit has a comment thread
patiently walking us through each step and yup, it works.

------
tobr
Is it just my perception or are aggressive “signup walls” and the like
becoming more common? I feel like it was very frowned upon when Quora and
Pinterest did it. But now Reddit, Instagram and even Dribbble are very
aggressive about refusing to let you do nearly anything without an account.

This has some negative consequences for their logged in users too. For
example, many small shops and restaurants seem to use Instagram instead of a
traditional website. I wonder if they are aware that plenty of people can’t
see their menus etc?

I find Dribbble’s wall especially ironic. For the longest time it would be
_hard_ to get a Dribbble account - you had to know someone with an invite. And
now they refuse to even tell you who designed which image unless you create an
account. (Isn’t that rather problematic from a copyright perspective?)

~~~
acdha
It’s a stage in the bubble process: these companies were funded well beyond
their real revenue prospects and those unsustainable business models are also
seeing ad rates which have been declining for many years. The investors expect
returns which the market can’t deliver and that’s going to lead to more abuses
until the users switch to a company earlier in the cycle.

Reddit has had something like $550M in funding, with the last round in
December 2019. It’s been around for 15 years so it’s unlikely to become
profitable at the desired levels but everyone involved has a strong incentive
not to recognize that.

------
thewhitetulip
I gave up on read Quora when they forced logins

I will give up on reddit if they do the same.

Isn't visits a valid criteria? Why force a mobile app?

~~~
Freak_NL
Browsers are agents of the user, apps are agents of the company behind the
app.

With a browser the user can install extensions and do things that benefit
them, in an app you get exactly what the app owner gives you. If monetization
is your only purpose, you would choose apps exclusively if your users are
willing to accept it.

~~~
majewsky
> Browsers are agents of the user

The most-used browsers, too, are agents of the company making them.

~~~
gsich
Compared to most company apps: yes, they are at least somewhat user focused.

------
motohagiography
Reddit was a great place to engage with ideas, _and then move on from them,_
but turning it into just another surveillance operation is where communities
go to die.

I still think I know how Reddit could make money, but it's possible they are
too staid to get it. They may have also lost the plot politically, where a
particular flavour of virtue is becoming a substitute for the growth and
success they actually need to effect the change they want to.

The music business is and always was a celebrity and micro-celebrity factory,
and Reddit (and their main magazine empire investor) could be that for
content. Imagine a record label like Time Warner happened to own every indie
bar in every little city where bands played, got first option on every group
that came through the doors, and could measure audience reaction in real time.

That's what Reddit is, but for content.

This pressuring users to give up PII sounds like there is a sea change
happening at the corporate/financial level where they've been given a limited
runway and need to show some short term traction, "or else." I've mostly
kicked my reddit habit, and their strategy really resembles something they'd
do if they're hitting a negative inflection point.

------
willberman
Instagram only allows you to see a portion of a user's photos before forcing
you to login. It does this on both mobile and browser.

I'm not a big application design junkey, but it's behavior like this that
makes me appreciate the simplicity of hacker news. A few standard concepts
implemented in their most basic form. No changes in the name of more user
engagement.

I understand that Reddit and Instagram's primary motive is to make money, but
these sorts of "features" remove me from their pool of potential customers.

I'd like to see a move towards a purely data based web where I get to choose
how the data is displayed. I know a semantic web paired with a standard set of
user interface components chosen by the user wouldn't be as profitable as the
current internet, but I would prefer it.

~~~
krtkush
> Instagram only allows you to see a portion of a user's photos before forcing
> you to login. It does this on both mobile and browser.

For the curious, adblockers can get rid of the annoying pop-ups.

~~~
willberman
I just tried, and I can only use my adblocker to block the element that
requests I login. My scrolling is still stopped, and I can't see anymore of a
user's photos. Am I missing something?

~~~
krtkush
I'm a Firefox desktop user.

I use all of uBlock origin's annoyance filters and it works for me.

------
jjcm
More and more I think the whole ad-driven approach to sites is just
unsustainable, as eventually they're incentivised to have dark patterns like
this in order to drive up revenue and engagement.

I'm working on my own alternatives, but all I really want is a premium reddit
like community that focuses on UX and gives some of my subscription back to
the creators.

~~~
dehrmann
> eventually they're incentivised to have dark patterns like this in order to
> drive up revenue and engagement.

I think you'd still see sites drive engagement, even for paid offerings. Look
at Netflix and autoplay.

You're almost asking for something like a media outlet that values the greater
good over pretty much everything else.

~~~
jjcm
Fair, but I think Netflix's approach is less nefarious than other platforms.
At the end of the day Netflix wants you to do two things: value their platform
and spread the word.

With things like instagram and facebook, it's different - their objective is
to get you as addicted to the platform as possible, collect as much data as
they can, and use it as a platform to surface ads.

They simply have more drivers that are at odds with what's beneficial to the
user.

~~~
dean177
Anyone care to explain why they downvoted this?

------
cannabis_sam
Just today I tried to open a post on /r/haskell in incognito mode (because
there’s a markdown/commonmark mismatch on code sections between old and new
reddit, and hey, I’m the dumb one insisting on the old version so I accept
that I’m the one who has to work around this.)

And then I get hit with the his garbage???

Seriously, the assholes at reddit responsible for this shit should resign in
shame and vow to never touch a computer for the next ten years.

------
steinbitten
Final straw for me when I read «This community is only available in the app".
Such a anti-user thing to do so closed my account in protest. I primarily used
reddit for programming and audio related news. Luckily I have ycombinator for
my programming needs and gearslutz for my audio needs.

------
Jupe
With ~400 employees [1] and ~$100m in ad revenue [2], that's only about
$250,000 / employee (seems like a lot, but take out unemployment taxes, health
care contribution, corporate taxes, etc.). And then there's infrastructure,
which I'm sure is relatively high given ~500m users per month.

I'm sure there is MUCH more revenue to be extracted from an app (with access
to so much on-device data)

I guess, if the information on their site is truly worthy, then I'd buck for
the Reddit Gold (Premium) [3]. Does anyone know if that works on the web, or
you need the app?

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit)

[2] [https://www.emarketer.com/content/reddit-to-
cross-100-millio...](https://www.emarketer.com/content/reddit-to-
cross-100-million-in-ad-revenues-in-2019)

[3] [https://www.reddit.com/premium](https://www.reddit.com/premium)

~~~
judge2020
I don't see device data being worth anything unless you mean being able to
serve ads based on that data, or at most being able to sell location data
[again, for ad purposes].

------
rahuldottech
Browsing Reddit is so much easier in a mobile browser - at least for me.
Allows me to open multiple pages in new tabs and browse them when convenient.
Also makes sharing articles or pages to other places easier.

I've tried the apps - but nothing beats the browser for me. If they kill the
mobile website, I'll just stop using Reddit.

~~~
falcolas
Have you tried Narwhale? The UX is pretty incredible for everyday use. Some of
the cornercases (subbing, unsubbing) are less intuitive, but it’s my daily
driver for mobile use of Reddit.

------
Fragoel2
Reddit has some of the most aggressive, and bothering, pop-ups I have ever
seen on their mobile site that prompt you to install their app.

~~~
vinhboy
Yelp would be second place then. They won't allow you to see pictures in their
mobile site. Any attempt to view images will take you to the app store.

OK sure, I'll download the app... But wait, now I can't use it without logging
in... But I can't login because I use a long generated password... well crap,
now finding that menu image I want is a huge chore. Why yelp, why.

------
Macha
They've also started growth hacking bullshit by A/B testing sending PM digests
of subs they feel you haven't visited enough:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/beta/comments/dw7frl/community_remi...](https://www.reddit.com/r/beta/comments/dw7frl/community_reminders_notifications_on_direct/)

------
weare138
It's ironic Reddit went through a major redesign that many of it's users
complained about to make the site mobile friendly only to completely ruin the
mobile UI/UX by constantly spamming users with prompts to install the app. Now
the desktop users of the new site get all the annoyances of a mobile UI and
mobile users can't use the site without an app. Brilliant!

------
jonplackett
The whole web feels like a hostile user experience these days.

Every site you visit you must...

\- figure out how to disagree to ad tracking (Sometimes imposible if you want
to use the site) \- decline cookies \- decline to receive their newsletter \-
Decline to download their app \- decline to receive notifications.

It’s painful and ridiculous.

~~~
adrianN
Or you browse with NoScript and UBlock and just don't visit the sites that
break.

~~~
jonplackett
I’ve got UBlock, but you still have to deal with the UI. No script breaks too
much stuff doesn’t it?

~~~
adrianN
For me Noscript fixes about as much stuff as it breaks.

------
Kostic
Very annoying. I've stopped using the mobile version for a while and then
replaced the web version with the RedReader app from F-Droid.[0]

Hopefully, APIs won't be closed.

[0]
[https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.quantumbadger.redreader/](https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.quantumbadger.redreader/)

------
newscracker
Reddit has been trying many user hostile approaches and dark patterns to push
its app. I’ve been terribly annoyed by this arm twisting, but I won’t use the
app. I have reduced visiting reddit because of such annoyances.

On mobile, sometimes closing the tab and reopening works, sometimes changing
networks works, and the most recent one I’ve seen is to request for the
desktop site, which has worked consistently even though it makes reading a bit
more difficult.

With iOS not allowing the user to set a default app, using a third party app
like Apollo as an alternative to the browser isn’t convenient either. It’s
either view/use the official reddit app or continue with the browser.

I wonder if browsing with the Apollo or another app (like Narwhal) also throws
the same message and restricts reading on the platform.

------
phreack
Is there any reddit clone that's not a haven for communities that have been
banned for reddit?

------
ferzul
in the web brower, i can open anything in a new tab and come back six weeks
later.

in the app, i have one view, and if i ignore the app for an hour it reverts to
the default state.

isn't it obvious which one i want? yes! it's the one that takes features away
from me and makes me miserable!

------
enjoyyourlife
At least [https://i.reddit.com/](https://i.reddit.com/) still works

~~~
seddin
[https://old.reddit.com/](https://old.reddit.com/) too.

------
archon810
Previously in December 2019:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21780092](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21780092)

[https://old.reddit.com/r/mobileweb/comments/e7yivg/join_redd...](https://old.reddit.com/r/mobileweb/comments/e7yivg/join_reddit_to_keep_reading_an_account_is_now/)

------
vinc
It's really sad to watch Reddit being slowly destroyed like that, one user-
hostile feature after the other. All of it for short term gains. For me the
threshold to leave will be when old.reddit.com will not be available anymore.
At that point it'll be pretty easy. I already spend a lot less time on the
website than before.

------
mighty_bander
In depressing times like these, I like to remember that something like 30% of
users have adblockers installed. It might seem like people will mindlessly go
along with this sort of manipulation, but there is still a place for
independent thought on the web. Not on facebook, Reddit, Instagram, or really
any other big-name site, but you can find it if you look.

------
nialv7
There is a federated alternative to Reddit in the works:
[https://github.com/dessalines/lemmy](https://github.com/dessalines/lemmy)

Previous discussion on HN:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19686972](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19686972)

------
bravoetch
It appears the only business model left is to sell your users. Looking forward
to this phase of the internet being over already.

------
a3n
"Delete Reddit. Hit the gym." (No need to lawyer up.)

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Life is better without Reddit.

------
viklove
This is why I started developing an alternative to Reddit a few years ago. It
was clear from their leadership that they would continue to move towards
satisfying their newly acquired VCs (for example Tencent), and do so by
selling out their users in every way possible. Platforms like Reddit do not
care about giving their users the best possible experience, and that is no
longer the basis of the decisions they make.

The only way for a discussion platform to stay true to its users is if it does
not rely on revenue from other sources.

I wrote a blog post about this a few days back (shameless plug):
[https://www.plebia.io/blogs/site/uDIkCFPp2b8+Online-
Discussi...](https://www.plebia.io/blogs/site/uDIkCFPp2b8+Online-Discussion-
Platforms-Have-Changed)

~~~
pferde
Looks good so far.

A suggestion, though - if you really can't make the site work at least a
little bit with javascript disabled, at least have a basic landing/about page
display for js-less browsers. Simply put - give me a reason to consider
unblocking your site, dangle the carrot in front of me.

~~~
viklove
Yeah that's a fair point, thanks for the feedback!

------
MrPatan
Delete your reddit account. It will make using reddit more annoying, so you'll
use it less.

------
DantesKite
What’s the benefit of making users install the app versus just using the web?

~~~
jaynetics
\- you can track them more thoroughly

\- you can "please" them with push notifications

\- you can save bandwidth by putting static assets / the framework in the app
and only load content

~~~
rahuldottech
\- much harder to block ads in apps than in browsers.

~~~
jaynetics
Good point. I use DNS66 which blocks ads in both so I forgot about that.

~~~
gruez
I'm surprised that'd even work considering that all the reddit ads are first-
party.

------
lokedhs
A federated alternative to Reddit would be nice. Perhaps something that
integrates with the Fediverse.

Surely someone must ha e built something like this already?

------
buboard
reddit should be careful what they wish for. One of the things you get by
switching to the app is you get stuck with the phone app crowd which likes
phone app things, photos , 1 line comments etc, you'll get a bad instagram for
college boys with lots of nsfw.

OTOH , if reddit unravels we ll probably witness a lot of disparate forums
springing up again, which may be good

------
badrabbit
If only reddit was run like HN. I heard of competition sites popping up but
not sure what happened to them since.

------
bibyte
I started seeing this a few days ago. What is even more exasperating is that
the default Reddit doesn't support tabs and it is INSANELY slow. I can stream
4K content on YouTube comfortably but I have to wait multiple seconds to open
a text thread. Maybe I should try the Boost client...

~~~
29083011397778
If you're after tabs, there is, of course, a workaround. I use firefox on
desktop and mobile, with extensions to redirect to old.reddit.com and
i.reddit.com respectively. Because logins are saved, everything just... works.
Opening links in a new tab included.

At least until only Reddit's new design is allowed, and I stop using the site.

~~~
bibyte
I can't edit it now but I was talking about the default Reddit app for
Android, not the new mobile website. The website was pretty fast for me. But
because of these new changes you can't even view a subreddit without using the
app.

I just installed Boost for Reddit and it is pretty fast. But thanks for
letting me know about i.reddit.com, I didn't even know that exists. The old
Reddit is still the best on desktops, I hope they don't kill it.

------
tedunangst
Viewing the rest of
[https://www.reddit.com/r/mobileweb/](https://www.reddit.com/r/mobileweb/) it
seems not everyone likes the new site design.

~~~
chungy
I have a firefox extension to automatically redirect to old.reddit.com for the
same reason. It's faster, more compact, easier to read, easier to navigate.

------
krtkush
I believe that there will be a point in time when reddit APIs will no longer
be open and third party apps will be completely dysfunctional or severely
limited. The platform is going the way of twitter and facebook.

------
9nGQluzmnq3M
The best way to avoid this nonsense is to use an app: but a third-party one,
not Reddit's junk. A lot of people swear by rif, aka/fka reddit is fun.

------
norswap
What really puzzles me: what do they gain by us using their app?

Certainly it is marginal and can't offset the user/revenue loss from
alienating users??

------
pier25
I think a better strategy would have been to have an ugly and outdated mobile
site where users cannot install RES.

------
moonbug
Reddit's sell of its app is so hard , I can only conclude it's packed full of
deeply nefarious stuff.

------
nvr219
Apollo is the best app to browse Reddit.

------
p2t2p
Reddit is blocked on the level of /etc/hosts on all of my machines... so... :)

------
wiseleo
I hate websites that coerce the use of an inferior app. Trust immediately goes
to zero.

------
dt3ft
Shameless plug: I started building 20-things.com as a similar-feature
community but with goal to never use dark patterns. More competition is good.
I posted a Show: HN but it seems to have been buried/blocked as it got no
attention whatsoever. I would love to hear your feedback/thoughts/ideas.

------
IndexPointer
I hope someone comes along and makes a less hostile alternative to reddit
soon...

------
alfiedotwtf
If people wanted a new Reddit, which is to say a website in front of Usenet
that is social and allows voting, what other features would you find
interesting?

I'm sure there's someone reading these comments who is looking for a side
project, and this may be interesting to them... let's help them out.

~~~
rollinDyno
I do not know if it makes financial sense, but I would be very interested in
trying out a new Reddit with a more representative subreddit moderators.

Currently, moderators are selected with little input from the community
members. Because mods produce the content policies of a community, members
don't have the most effective tools to effect the policies of their
communities (where they can spend a lot of time and effort).

Ideally, moderators would be selected by vote but that's a challenge of its
own. I would still like to see more democratic forms of mod selection, it
would also keep them accountable from abusing their power (arbitrary banning,
censoring and/or taking bribes from corporations).

------
empath75
The day they stop supporting the old ui is the day I stop using Reddit.

~~~
mrweasel
I still can't use their new desktop design on my laptop. Apparently a 7 years
old MacBook Pro isn't powerful enough to run neither Reddit nor Imgur
particular well. I can do development, run an AppleTV emulator, VM's, a ton of
Firefox tabs, and a stack of Python virtualenv's, just not the redesigned
Reddit at a reasonable speed.

------
codeful
i didnt find how to turn off notifications about trending topics on android
app without going to android settings- so i uninstalled the app.It was enough
for me.

------
neals
Is there any way to sandbox Apps on Android?

~~~
hiq
You can put them in some work profile:

[https://f-droid.org/packages/net.typeblog.shelter/](https://f-droid.org/packages/net.typeblog.shelter/)

------
estranhosidade
/watchredditdie

------
XhPEC50ot
ideas for reddit replacement?

------
hi5eyes
old.reddit.com choose use desktop mode on ur phone browser

zzzzzzzzzzzz

------
moneywoes
Pathetic design, I hope this poor A/B test.

------
XhPEC50ot
good replacement for reddit?

------
foo101
Is Reddit forgetting history? Users migrated from Digg to Reddit in large
numbers due to UI changes that users did not appreciate.

------
heartbeats
This is the future you chose.

~~~
dang
Maybe so, but could you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebaity
comments to HN?

~~~
heartbeats
I wouldn't think I am - I've had a bad run with the last few, but I do
endeavor to post seriously, I'm not rude in comment threads, and what I am
posting is not unrelated to the topic.

If you disagree, please let me know and I'll take a look at them.

To elaborate on my comment, which I think is neither insubstantive nor
flamebait: It's absurd to suggest that users are not to blame here. On one
hand, they complain about it, but on the other hand, they obviously use the
app, or else they wouldn't bother maintaining it. Being subject to all of this
tracking nonsense is what within economics is known as a 'revealed
preference'. In other words, it is the case that the users chose this future,
or as the meme goes, _this is the future you chose_.

~~~
nkurz
From the outside, you've been posting a lot of low effort comments. Take this
one for example --- if the 'elaboration' was part of the first comment, it
would have been solid. As it was, it only addressed people who already agreed
with your unspoken conclusion. Yes, it's more effort to make the full comment
the first time, but it makes for a better site overall.

I comment here because I upvoted several of your comments on the Mike Godwin
thread earlier today because I thought they were unfairly downvoted. But even
in those cases, you probably could have prevented the downvotes if you'd spent
a little more effort of making your case in the opening comment, rather than
defending it in the followups.

Your point of view is appreciated, so please stick around despite the
downvotes. But at the same time, please take the effort to post higher quality
initial comments so that you avoid most of those downvotes.

~~~
heartbeats
Thank you for the feedback; I truly appreciate it. However, I am unsure
whether it actually holds true; the elaborating comment to which you are
replying currently stands at -1.

It's supported behavior to downvote comments based on disagreement[0][1], so
it seems like the system is working as it should.

0:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=392347](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=392347)

1:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171)

