
Strava cuts off leaderboard for free users, reduces third party apps - kylebarron
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2020/05/strava-cuts-off-leaderboard-for-free-users-reduces-3rd-party-apps-for-all-and-more.html
======
kingosticks
Giving zero days notice to your 3rd-party developers is one way to anger a
relatively powerful bunch of your users. Many people will find today that
their hobby/side-project is now dead in the water. I hope nobody was relying
on any income from software using these APIs. But the 'best' bit:

"We realize these changes could be especially challenging for some of you, so
they’ll be non-breaking for 30 days, returning empty data during that time so
you can make necessary adjustments"

What on earth is non-breaking about this? I have not enjoyed working with the
Strava API myself but thankfully I have not wasted as much time as some poor
devs. The thing is a total mess as it is, parts of the API were effectively
crippled beyond use following some bizarre privacy-based change some time ago.

Get your act together Strava.

~~~
PragmaticPulp
> Giving zero days notice to your 3rd-party developers is one way to anger a
> relatively powerful bunch of your users.

I understand the frustration, but I also understand Strava's desire to rip the
band-aid off and just shut it down.

When it comes to free APIs, a sunsetting period gives a lot of people the idea
that they can change the company's mind if they complain loudly enough, make
enough noise on social media, or threaten boycotts and other punishments for
the company. Ironically, the longer the sunset period, the angrier people get.

Also, I'm not convinced the 3rd-party API consumers are particularly powerful
in this case. Strava is obviously focusing on profitability, so removing
access to a free feature that appears in other company's apps isn't likely to
make much difference to the company.

Their plan sounds like exactly what they need to do: Focus on building a core
product that people will feel the need to pay for. Giving 90% of the value
proposition away for free, including letting it show up in 3rd-party apps,
isn't a great path to profitability unless they have another 10% of extremely
valuable paid add-on content. As a Strava user, I've never felt compelled to
upgrade because all of the functionality I actually wanted was free.

~~~
kingosticks
I agree, I don't think they have much power. But what I said was they are
relatively more powerful, and I meant compared to regular free users. Some
3rd-party devs will have apps with many, many users and those users will
likely value the work the developer has put in. They will be forced to relay
the news to all their users right now and I imagine they'll still be pretty
angry about it.

And I also entirely agree Strava needs to change. Their strategy has been non-
existent for years. I was a paid subscriber for around 2 years. In that time I
dutifully (naively) submitted bug reports and feature requests since I wasn't
really getting much use out of the premium features but I wanted to support
it. However, I never saw any value in the few changes they made so I figured
my support was misplaced. I've been a happy free user ever since. I use their
platform as a way bring together my data that's spread across 9 years and
various Garmin, Wahoo and TomTom devices. I put quite a lot of value in that
data and I trust Strava with it all. I definitely trust them less now. I think
they could have handled this a lot better.

~~~
jhrmnn
At least Strava is reasonable about getting your own data out of it. Not sure
if this applies just to EU users, but it's easy to download a full archive
with the original uploaded gpx/fit files (whether they came from a manual
upload or a 3rd party). Last time I checked (which wasn't too long after GDPR
was introduced), Garmin didn't really support a bulk download of the raw data,
and neither did Fitbit.

~~~
bbbbbr
While not official, there is a script posted to the Garmin forums which allows
for bulk download/export of FIT/TCX/etc data.

[https://forums.garmin.com/apps-software/mobile-apps-
web/f/ga...](https://forums.garmin.com/apps-software/mobile-apps-web/f/garmin-
connect-web/166824/is-there-a-way-to-export-bulk-data-to-tcx-or-gpx-files-
seems-like-i-can-only-bulk-export-to-csv-and-individual-activities-to-gpx)

Here's a version I've improved a little + adding export of "wellness" data.
This thread was a good reminder to push my changes out to github.
[https://github.com/bbbbbr/garmin-connect-bulk-
export](https://github.com/bbbbbr/garmin-connect-bulk-export)

Edit, add:

Lastly, while the UI has some quirks and it doesn't have a social component,
My Tourbook is a solid offline, cross-platform alternative to the online
fitness repositories. There is something to be said for having complete
control over your data (make sure to do backups).
[http://mytourbook.sourceforge.net/mytourbook/](http://mytourbook.sourceforge.net/mytourbook/)

~~~
jhrmnn
Ok, so things haven't really changed that much. They don't actively prevent
you from getting the data, but they don't make it easy either.

------
heynk
As a non-paying user, this seems to be mostly fair. I used to do pretty remote
trail running, and the route building feature was great for putting together a
route and exporting it to my watch. If I get back into that type of running,
then I'd probably be willing to pay just for that feature.

Hiding the "friends only" leaderboard seems like a bad idea on their part.
That feature definitely drove engagement and friendly rivalries. It's not the
same if it's only amongst your paid subscriber friends, which is not many.

I appreciate them doing more to get users to pay. I've never paid for Strava,
despite having been a very active user in the past. I generally like them as a
network, and wouldn't want them to go away.

The immediately breaking API changes are pretty bad. I wonder what the impetus
was behind that move. Too complicated to have it act as a transition? Maybe
they could have announced these changes, but have them start in 30 days, with
a small discount for users if you subscribe before then.

~~~
gregoryl
The route builder has improved a great deal in recent times; they leverage the
data they have to pick common routes for runners/riders. Have discovered
several interesting places to run locally that I wasn't aware of, and its also
fantastic for planning a commute (i.e. bike riders tend to on aggregate, avoid
dangerous/unfriendly routes, so the planner ends up doing so as well).

------
llamataboot
I totally understand wanting to push more people to subscriptions, honestly I
find it a way more user friendly model than selling data, or doing other weird
behind the scenes stuff. If you like this, pay us for it, and we'll keep
making it.

Shutting down an API makes sense of course - I mean an API doesn't come for
free - someone has to maintain it, upgrade it, etc, but I just hate it. More
walled gardens and data that I can't really move around in real time (yes, I
know you can export data, and I know entire apps like rungap can move
everything around everywhere)

But god what I wouldn't give for an alternate world where so many of these
things are open-source software that only needs to generate enough revenue to
pay for some salaries (and not pay back 17 rounds of VCs) and have open APIs.

[Thinking right now specifically about Home Assistant. In my mind it's far
better than any proprietary home automation platform, now that there's enough
revenue to even pay a few devs to work on it full time, it's rapidly getting
UX improvements that make it better even for non-developers to use, it's
completely open, etc etc etc]

~~~
rplnt
They are already selling your data, whether you pay or not. Not in some evil
way though[1], but their free customers are very valuable to them. So this
decision to strip a core feature, only differentiating feature, is really
mind-boggling.

1\. [https://metro.strava.com/](https://metro.strava.com/)

------
chihuahua
Over the past 5 years, Strava has aquired the reputation of not fixing any
bugs and not adding any useful features. Instead there was just a little bit
of churn in the UI, annoying most users. A better way forward might have been
to keep existing features for everyone, but add a number of useful new
features for paying subscribers.

~~~
ssorc
To be fair on Strava, they have made some effort to addressing this over the
last few months:

[https://www.strava.com/subscription/whats-
new](https://www.strava.com/subscription/whats-new)

~~~
kingosticks
But now it's kinda obvious they only did this as ammo in preparation for
today's announcement. I sincerely do hope they continue to add new features,
there is a huge stack of requests and ideas still waiting in their support
forums.

~~~
usrusr
No, they did it because they lost entire years following ill-advised growth
fantasies into nonexisting markets where every yoga session, every treadmill
workout would somehow be a "Strava moment" and that would magically pay their
bills. They completely neglected their incredibly successful (within scope)
but not quite profitable core business. A few months ago they switched to
salvage mode, going through those years of accumulated backlog at dangerous
speed. And now this, it's just a sign of desperation. It certainly shares the
cause with the changes before but I wouldn't call one the buildup for the
other.

~~~
rplnt
Hands down the best summary of what seems to be going on I've seen.

I vaguely remember new features some 5+ years ago, or promises of fixing
issues (that are still there), but that had stopped and all we got was a
social-network-like feed. One would think with the data they have Metro would
be able to profit from free users, but I guess not?

------
floatingatoll
This is a great example of why it’s important to charge money for things up
front, rather than later on. If they’d charged for these features from day 1,
this could have been a glowing article about how their revenue model has
helped them support feature development and build a third-party app ecosystem.
They should have charged for it sooner.

~~~
appleiigs
But i don’t think they’d be as popular without being free. I have a Garmin
watch which has an app, iPhone has fitness tracking built in. Nike has a free
app. The list of competitors goes on and on.

Now that they have network effects and switching costs (all my historical
data), time to squeeze and monetize.

~~~
floatingatoll
Given the nearly universally hostile comments about “squeeze and monetize”, I
wonder if that approach is finally winding down. Sure would be amazing if YC
refused to fund anyone who didn’t charge money from day one. “If your idea
isn’t worth charging for, it isn’t worth funding for.”

~~~
supernova87a
That would not match the growth model that investors seem to want to see (or
be fooled by). If you can't show massive adoption up front in concept, how do
you choose which to invest in unless you're in it for the long haul? Which
seems to be out of fashion...

~~~
floatingatoll
Either investing is a game of skill, or it’s a game of chance.

If it’s like poker, taking away the ability to see one card from everyone’s
hand doesn’t mean you automatically will lose the game. It just means you’ll
be slightly less likely to win due to a lost advantage. Your break even may
require an additional investment, in exchange for not making people feel
ripped off.

If it’s a game of chance, adoption is completely irrelevant :)

------
abalashov
I don't much care about these changes one way or another, but it would be very
sad if they went away. For better or worse, they created far and away the best
fitness platform for cyclists, if only because of the mindshare and network
effects. Their analyses are also quite good. It would be a real pity if they
went away, and I hope they stay solvent.

I've been a paying subscriber since I first joined in Aug 2018 and am happy to
support it.

~~~
nradov
Strava does pretty well as a social network. But their analytics are generally
weaker than TrainingPeaks or Garmin Connect.

~~~
avs733
I hope this at least solves the people 'gps bombing' certain popular segments
with fake times. I use all three of those apps you mentioned and generally
here is how I frame them:

TrainingPeaks - analytics, record keeping, tracking improvement, interacting
with my running coach, planning build up to events, making notes to self about
training. (Training and planning)

Garmin Connect - where I record, check data, and handle posting. Since buying
a watch, four button clicks on my wrist has music playing and my scheduled
workout timed out and just beeps at me when I need to speed up / slowdown. It
probably gets me out the door 5 minutes faster than using my phone and strava
which isn't nothing (Tracking).

Strava - fun way for me to interact with others. Minimal useful information,
unless I'm being silly competitive against myself or others. (read: social)

It takes zero effort to have Garmin and my watch sync with both TP and GC,
while if I record on Strava on my phone I have to download a file and upload
it to the other two. the GC push to strava has significantly reduced my
engagement with strava from once a day to once or twice a week where I bulk
comment / thumbs up others workouts. If I didn't have running friends who were
in other states or training peaks had social elements I would probably slowly
fade to zero usage on Strava.

~~~
nradov
Many of the popular Strava segments are a total joke, full of obvious fakes or
mistakes. They claim to automatically flag suspicious activities but I still
see so many that can't possibly be correct. I doubt Strava is even using any
ML technology to catch those.

~~~
pluies
You don't even need ML for that - if someone ran a segment twice as fast as
the olympic record for that distance, it's pretty obviously wrong... And yet,
that happens pretty regularly for segments I look at.

------
randomstring
I'm a long time Strava user, I have a four digit user id. Except for the year
I won a free subscription for a year, I've always paid for the service. I'm a
data nerd and cyclist.

This change in Strava's policy makes me very sad because it's clear they are
managing it poorly and Strava might die as a result.

Who could step in to fill the void? Garmin? No, they're just terrible at
anything other than collecting raw GPS data and it's clear they don't have
athletes in mind when creating features. Even when they have winning products
they find ways to sabotage them. Garmin Connect is full of potential, yet
fails to engage users or become a social platform.

I kinda hope Veloviewer.com steps up to fill the void. It's all about data.

~~~
runwerks
I'm a four digit user id as well and have been paying since they first offered
it.

While I plan to stick it out with Strava, I'd also like to explore any new
apps out there that might take its place. Got any ideas of other apps out
there?

------
davidw
I think the route builder is better in
[https://ridewithgps.com/](https://ridewithgps.com/) \- and it seems to work
better with my Wahoo Elemnt Bolt

~~~
chihuahua
There was a topic/thread in the Strava support forum about routes exported
from Strava to Wahoo Elemnt missing all turn directions (for both paying and
free users). The thread kept going for years with over 1000 responses. Every
one of them said "I need turn directions, it works for Garmin but not Wahoo,
please fix". Strava ignored it completely, no response.

~~~
nradov
As a long time Strava it's obvious they have a tiny engineering team. They do
a good job of keeping the lights on but have little ability to ship new
features other than paid partner integrations.

------
andromeduck
Strava integration with apple watch and apple health is so poor I stopped
using it directly, relying instead of stuff like health fit. Having tried
Summit I honestly don't understand why anyone would pay for such a lackluster
experience especially for swimming.

If the Activity app would allow for a bit more detailed workout sharing and
basic social like likes and comments I'd be done with it entirely.

~~~
stbtrax
I use apple watch activity and import to strava just fine. I only started a
few weeks ago though so maybe it's improved since you've used it?

------
alteria
This is pretty disappointing. Recently Strava seemed to be turning the corner,
releasing new features that users wanted.

Totally understand their need to make money, seeing that they've raised 5
rounds from VC.

However, burning goodwill like this is super counterproductive. After all,
most of my riding is on Zwift, I could also switch to Garmin, etc.

------
fredley
I think this is fair. Strava summit is a cheap subscription, and running a
very cheap sport to participate in. Segments in my experience appeal to
spreadsheet heads who get a kick out of meaningless drilling down into
data[0]. I imagine most casual runners are not that.

In many ways I can see this making Strava _more_ appealing to casual runners,
as for people starting out on a fitness journey, the last thing you want to
see is how much slower you are than other people.

0: [https://twitter.com/stravawankers](https://twitter.com/stravawankers)

~~~
markus92
Afaik Strava is more used by cyclists which is a more expensive sport.
Everyone who is sort of serious uses it.

~~~
fredley
Here in the UK at least it's very popular with the running community, although
I remember a few years ago it was definitely cycling-first. Would be
interesting to know what the breakdown is by activities, users' primary
activity type.

~~~
kingosticks
I can't give you that stat but there are some great numbers showing a trend
away from single-sport users at [https://blog.strava.com/press/strava-
releases-2019-year-in-s...](https://blog.strava.com/press/strava-
releases-2019-year-in-sport-data-report/) (download the zipped report at the
top)

------
astrec
I was a Strava premium subscriber until the summit packs came along. It made
little sense to maintain 2 of the 3 available subscriptions to get the 50% of
features you wanted from each of the training and analysis packs, when you
could just go down the road and pay a single fee to training peaks for what
turned out to be a better training and a vastly superior analysis experience.

Then Strava ditched the chronological feed (it came back a month or so ago)
which made sense only to those for those trying to use it for something other
than seeing which of your mates ran this morning. Then came posts, and
suddenly your feed was full of quasi-motivational clip art from the bloke you
met one time at a park run.

And of course Strava's route planner has fallen behind those offered by Ride
with GPS and Komoot, although they seem to have given it a bit of attention
lately.

I don't want Strava to die, but they forgot who their customers were and went
on a 2 year bender chasing casual users. It was already a big task to convince
folks you burned to move their money back, but it's going to be herculean
having taken the torch to them again.

------
markus92
Cyclists are going to revolt, everyone wants to beat their friends on their
favorite hill. It was one of the features I loved most about the app as I
could see myself improving compared to people I have a good reference to.

~~~
dionidium
I'm a "cyclist" who absolutely loves Strava and I couldn't care any less about
segments or leaderboards or beating my friends on their favorite hill. I just
like to track my bike rides. I know there's a core group of hardcore cyclists
who use the app like you do, but I wonder if there isn't a much wider group of
people who think it's cool to track their rides and that's it.

~~~
popotamonga
I actually just ride to beat segments and get in the top 3 at least. This will
take out a huge part of enjoying cycling outdoors for me.

~~~
usrusr
But nothing has significantly changed for you if you can consistently reach
top 3 (top 10 actually)

The biggest loss for me (if I wasn't subscribing) would be the "friends"
leaderboard. I'm actually not that much interested in the obvious peer ranking
on my home climbs (I already know how strong each of my cycling buddies are),
but it's also a bit of a connoisseur feature when traveling (e.g. when it's
not 2020): a famous col will have dozens of friends on it and none of them are
even close to top 1000. The stories (when, why) are often more interesting
than the times, even more so if it's not a famous col by a hidden gem, which
then becomes a bit of an asynchronously shared experience.

------
SwagGrocery
Strava's co-founders, who recently returned to run the company, sent a fairly
transparent email to users about the changes. The rationale is clear: Strava
needs to achieve profitability. They've been around for over 10 years and have
completed 6 rounds of fundraising. They see three paths to profitability: 1)
ads, 2) sell user data, 3) subscriptions. They're all in on option #3.

The biggest challenge they face with subscriptions, as mentioned by other
posters, is that the majority of features that users want are available in the
free tier. Most of the subscribers I know (myself included) pay the
subscription fee because they want to see the platform survive, not because
the subscription tier is dramatically better than free. This model works for
non-profits (kind of), but probably doesn't work for a company sitting on $42M
in venture funding.

Therefore, they quickly need to a) make the subscription tier much better than
free to pull free users over and/or b) pull free tier features behind the
paywall. Both are very challenging. If 'a' was easy, you'd think they would
have done it years ago. And 'b' is going to risk user churn, which will
ultimately erode their network effect. This makes me wonder why they're not
considering advertising to free-tier users? Haven't most people accepted the
"ad-free for paying users" model?

~~~
prh8
I think the biggest reason for lack of sympathy from anyone is that the
platform was completely stagnant for years. I've been on there as a runner for
a long time, and by the time there was any compelling reason to pay, those
features had already been done either by browser add-ons or by Runalyze.

Additionally, having built (although never fully launched) an app on their
APIs, they never really cared about the developer platform. There's plenty of
stories around of their poor treatment of more popular apps.

And lastly, having heard stories from inside, it's just another fun times
startup that burned money for fun and very little to show for it.

~~~
SwagGrocery
All valid criticism, but despite the stagnation no one else came along and
took the KOM chasing game from Strava. And the COVID-19 pandemic has only
solidified their lock on it: races are canceled so people are chasing KOM's
instead.

Until people start publicly measuring their accomplishments via another
platform, Strava is in good shape from the user loyalty perspective. Now, they
need to figure out how to monetize. The risk is sacrificing that user loyalty
capital in the pursuit of profit, but either way investors will get closure.

------
HugoDias
Well, I started using Strava last week as a free user. Any good alternatives
for bikers?

~~~
tnorthcutt
I think Ride With GPS is generally liked.

------
helsinkiandrew
I'm a paying Strava user and it infuriates me that there is no real
alternative.

The website can be slow at times, there's a strange difference in
functionality and look and feel between the app and website. AND THEY STILL DO
NOT SUPPORT MULTISPORT (brick/triathlon in single activity).

I'd guess segment leaderboards/KOMs/comparison is one of their most popular
features - will be interested to see if this increases peoples take up of
Summit.

------
mgv11
I am a paying member, although don't really see a point in it. Especially
since I've noticed that I am using Strava mostly for the social aspect, even
if I normally don't care for any of social media stuff. It is really fun to
see how my friends, local runners and professional train. For stats I always
use Smashrun and Garmin Connect.

------
hprotagonist
well, it was mildly amusing while it lasted.

See you all on ridewithgps where all the brevet cue sheets are cross-posted
first anyway.

------
kup0
Another classic inevitable bait-and-switch situation where they offered too
much for free to begin with and backtracking on that just seems to make things
worse. No one wins.

------
runnr_az
I like Strava... wanna see them succeed, don’t mind paying for it. That said,
I see a bunch of 60 day trial messages... I’m not too clear on what it costs
after that?

------
harikb
For what it is worth, Nike Run Club app along with all premium features is now
free, at least for a few months while this pandemic is going on

~~~
dewey
Nike Run Club does something really annoying which is that they keep the GPS
locations in their app and there's no way to get it out. They could easily
give it back to HealthKit (on iOS at least) like all the other workout apps
but they decided to lock people in that way.

As far as I know then you can't use the location on Strava.

~~~
mrosett
I'd been wondering why runs recorded with NRC don't have GPS data in
healthkit. That's really disappointing, since I love the app overall. The
guided runs with Coach Bennett in particular are great.

~~~
dewey
Yes, that’s also my main reason to use it. I really like the guided runs too.

My workaround is to remove the HealthKit permissions from NRC and use the iOS
Workouts app in parallel. So before the run I start both apps, but only one is
writing into HealthKit. It feels a bit silly but it works.

------
ck2
aka how to become the "myspace" of athletes in a year

their whole attraction is segments and leaderboards

maybe the guy who makes stravistix (and maybe also the veloviewer people) can
now just make his own data storage and a full replacement service

but someone will

------
monkmartinez
Garmin Connect could win here.

~~~
spery
They won't. They are very 'serious' about their API access. You won't get the
chance to try it out without a full-blown company behind you.

I've tried to setup a dev account but I was stopped as I had no company
homepage and privacy statement. Oh and they call it Garmin Health.

------
lcnmrn
I switched to Runkeeper 5 years ago. It just works.

------
koolhead17
What is new here? Many others have done the same.

------
lykahb
Their front page tells nearly nothing about the app. Instead, one half of it
solicits registration. This tells me all I need to know about their respect to
the users.

~~~
freehunter
I’m looking at their front page right now and I see “ Connecting the world's
athletes” which sounds like a social network for athletes?

Scrolling the tiniest bit but still without changing pages pages, I see “If
you're active, Strava was made for you. We're the social network for those who
strive” and it shows a map and details of someone’s workout.

That tells me everything I need to know. It’s a social media app to track your
workouts and compare them with other people.

~~~
lykahb
The only text the front page displays is "The #1 app for runners and
cyclists", on top of a screenshot and registration dividing the screen in two.
Might be A/B testing going on.

~~~
freehunter
You're right... the difference is I first checked on mobile (which shows a ton
of info). Their desktop site is decidedly more spartan.

However, I would still argue that "The #1 app for runners any cyclists"
alongside a picture showing a map and charts with a watch showing time and
distance should tell you everything you need to know. It's an app for runners
and cyclists that tracks your time and distance. Not exactly the same as "a
social network for runners and cyclists" but both statements are correct.

