

The Hustler's MBA - bennesvig
http://tynan.com/hustle

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jeremysmyth
While correct (in a sense), this suffers from pretty much the same naïveté
that a lot of similar essays contain.

Simply put, the chief benefit of formalised higher education is that it forces
you to learn stuff you didn't even know you didn't know, deeper than you ever
thought you had to.

It's many years since I left university (studying electronics and software),
and I while I still work in tech (who doesn't around here?!), I only used a
fraction of what I learned there once I got to the real world. That's the
chief argument of essayists like this one, and it's one I agree with.

However, I have many times been in situations where I've had to solve a
problem that I would not have had the mental tools for, were it not for a deep
distant memory of some obscure piece of maths I did (painfully, perhaps even
reluctantly) in second year, or some recollection of a weird hack with CPU
registers I learned in third year. True, these moments in my career have been
fleeting, but they helped me in a way that OP could not have been helped.

I've since worked a lot as a technical trainer. For me, the difference between
technical training (or vocational, or OP's self-inflicted syllabus) and
education (college, university) is that the former gives you a great hands-on
real-world grasp of the available tools and techniques and how to use them to
solve problems. The latter gets you further into the "why", and makes you
better suited to making your own tools and techniques. Those of you who have
written your own operating systems and compilers - would you ever have done
that had you _not_ been in university? And how much did you learn from it?

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potatolicious
He lost me at the part where the secret to life is becoming a professional
poker player. Because in a highly competitive game of chance you're pretty
much guaranteed to come out on top to the tune of $50-60 an hour...

Does this post strike anyone as completely f'ing delusional? Perhaps
applicable to the author, one of the greatest card sharks alive today, but
seems silly to the vast majority.

~~~
paborden
I thought the poker thing was strange ... but he didn't fully lose me until
the SECOND time he suggested becoming a pickup artist. Ugh.

~~~
victorhn
Can you elaborate more about why do you think becoming a pickup artist is a
bad thing?

~~~
paborden
The author is essentially saying that learning to manipulate women teaches you
to think strategically. He wouldn't say it like that ... but that's very close
to what he's saying. He's NOT saying that it helps you learn social skills
(which IS valuable and IS NOT really the point of what pickup is trying to
teach you, let's be honest).

I could go on and on about this. But this Quora answer knocks it out of the
park so I don't have to. Her analysis is spot on:

<http://qr.ae/8VDLj>

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fmitchell0
It's definitely an interesting concept, but does assume a certain 'buffer'
level of class and income level to go down this road.

Having a home to be in while you 'get up to speed in poker', having parents
that understand and provide some sort of boundaries at 18 years old, assuming
poker winnings will be the base 'bank' for all other ventures, and assuming
that the networks you make at school are not very important are big red flags
for me.

For some, going to college, despite the hand-wringing, is also a way to break
cycles of poverty within a lineage, a sense of family pride, and an escape
from their home circumstance.

It's a little disconcerting that the author is a little lost in their own
privilege and that his Hustler's MBA curriculum is probably a product of
previous generations who went to college.

I think the better message is: Don't expect college, however many years you
spend, to GIVE you everything or ANSWER everything. You still have to live
life, take chances, and exist outside of your comfort zone. College is a
concrete foundation to that mission.

~~~
rnernento
He definitely forgot to check his privilege, big mistake...

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ssharp
College is proven way to improve productivity and lifetime earnings. And it's
scaled fairly well. And unlike poker, it's not zero-sum.

"In fact, apart from very specific cases, I think that school is a bad thing,
not worth doing even if it was free."

Very wrong. You're not going to become a doctor, lawyer, nurse, accountant,
etc. by playing poker and traveling. You're not going to get recruited by an
employer because you claim to have read a lot of books.

What the author is actually saying, but incorrectly applies to everyone
(startup bubble thinking, maybe?), is that for would-be startup founders,
college may be obsolete. This is in no way, shape, or form, indicative of the
value college provides to the rest of the population.

People have lots of motivations and reasons for attending college and many of
them are completely valid, logically and economically.

~~~
hhabgood
I believe he notes that if you are going to school to become a professional
(i.e. doctor) then it doesn't necessarily apply.

To your point, you also aren't going to become a zookeeper or programmer by
playing poker or travelling, but you also won't necessarily become one by
going to college. You WILL become one if you make the effort to do so, it
doesn't matter whether it's in college or elsewhere.

~~~
jhartmann
I really think that is the takeaway that I got from the post as well. You
become what you put your effort into, no amount of schooling is useful without
the desire and drive to really make someone successful. While many of us here
don't agree with the exact path he lays out, the gist of the message is to
only go to school if you have a really good reason for going and the drive to
make it worthwhile. Hustle and drive are key factors to success in this world,
anything you can do to improve those will definitely be more useful then a
college degree. These skills/personality traits are also not taught/picked up
very well from classroom studies. I have been in college two different times
in my life, and the first time I had no business being there. I was driven and
wanted something the second time. Definitely much more useful the second time
around, even though it was expensive. If you don't have that purpose and
drive, go figure yourself out first.

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mattmaroon
As someone whose done it, I can tell you that you shouldn't rely on making
money over the long run at poker. There are a lot of reasons why you'll
probably fail, no matter how smart and hard working you are, most of them
emotional.

It is a great way to learn decision making with incomplete information though.
There's sort of a class divide in the world between those who understand and
apply the concept of expected value to every part of their life and those who
don't.

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doktrin
This post would have held more sway for me if it had been touted as a
_preparation_ for school - not as a replacement.

I am of the opinion a number 18 year olds are very far from being emotionally
mature and self possessed enough to get the most ouf of college. Such
individuals would probably be well served by making a go at dealing with the
world, which might well include some form of the OP's syllabus.

However, touting this as an _alternative_ to higher education is IMO doling
out plain bad advice. I'm not even going to touch the highly dubious claims
made about poker as a source of reliable income (by an amateur with one year
of experience).

~~~
ChuckMcM
I think this is pretty insightful, I was comparing my daughter (17) as she
looks at colleges to some of the other potential freshman. It was clear that a
noticable number of young people were going to be lost.

I'd guess that its the 'hovering parent' syndrome which trys so hard to keep
their kids 'safe' and 'competitive' that they don't let their kids develop
into adults, but I don't know. It is definitely a factor though.

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abolibibelot
How to be a great [developer|dad|founder|hustler|manatee trainer] in 11 easy
steps

1-7. Do what I did.

8-10. Learn what I learned.

11\. Listen to advice from random people on the Internet.

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qdog
If one is disciplined enough to go for 4 years following a rigorous schedule,
sure go for it. I doubt most people could follow this program for 4 years. It
took me 8 years to get through college (those 9 am classes were too damn
early...), and I had no idea what I was going to eventually do. Many people
entering college are not highly motivated, and certainly not motivated with
the iron will required to play winning poker.

The states letting state universities set the price of tuition up to ludicrous
level seems to be the main issue with debt. At a reasonable state college, a 4
year degree 20 years ago for tuition would have cost less than 2k/year (I
think I have some receipts for $800-900 from 92 or 93 for a full semester,
13-18 credit hours at the time).

It is now about 2700/semester or 3x the price 20 years ago. Actually I guess
2700/semester is still not too bad, at full price for 4 years, that's a little
over 20k.

While going to Stanford or somewhere and getting a CS degree might pay off,
you don't actually have to go to freaking ivy league schools if you don't have
the money or want the debt. If you are in the humanities or something where
your future is probably a lower paying job, then a state school is probably
the way to go. 20-30k in debt is still a bit painful, but that's a 4 year
degree for the prices of a semester at some colleges.

Poker, btw, is a game of statistics, not chance. Since you can change your bet
when the odds change, ie: betting more when the odds favor a bet, or folding
when they do not. Craps, Roulette, and most other casino games are all games
of chance, where the odds are not in your favor at any time. Craps can give
you the best odds of a normal casino game, but every dollar you bet at craps
is returning at best ~$.99 over the long run. I used to play craps until I
read all the odds and now all I can see is the negative numbers everytime the
dice rolls. Poker is pretty much the only casino game I enjoy playing, because
skill can effect your outcome. However, I don't have the years or bankroll to
be a professional at it, and haven't played in a few years now.

~~~
natrius
_"While going to Stanford or somewhere and getting a CS degree might pay off,
you don't actually have to go to freaking ivy league schools if you don't have
the money or want the debt."_

The idea that one has to go into debt to go to a top-level school is an
outdated one. Every fancy school I got into was cheaper than the University of
Texas after financial aid.

~~~
qdog
You didn't get the same financial aid at UT?

My impression is that if your family makes too much (ie: 80k or 100k/yr), you
aren't getting anything but student loans.

A friend of mine went back to NYU a couple years ago to finish his degree
while he was working, I think he still racked 50 or 100k in loans.

Obviously if you can go to a school with a lot of scholarships or grants, debt
isn't an issue.

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paborden
Disagree with articles that are so myopically focused on dropping out of
college.

College is only overpriced if you make it overpriced (i.e. you major in
underwater basket weaving).

My alma mater is one of the more expensive ones out there ... yet, between the
connections I gained, classes I took, habits and ways of thinking it beat into
me, and rep I acquired from the school ... it was worth every damn cent.

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kcodey
He also lost me at poker. A lot of us entrepreneur types love poker because we
just love risk, IMO. To say that you can comfortable make 85k a year playing
poker is the most outlandish statement I've ever heard.

I also hate how people try and tell me poker is a skill. Yes to a degree it
is, but it's more luck than anything once you understand the game, let's be
real.

Seemed like a good blog post until he became delusional about poker.

~~~
coryl
If its about luck, than why do we see the same familiar faces deep into WSOP
finals?

Luck is only relevant if you're playing for the short run. Professionals
generally make decisions that favor them in the long run against natural
statistical deviations. That's why playing against a beginner is incredibly
hard; they make poor choices that don't necessarily result in poor results.
But put compare the results of that beginner vs a pro after 1000+ hands, and
you'll see how much luck vs skill matters.

~~~
htmltablesrules
But how much money does a poker player burn through before he/she is "good
enough" to play in big tournaments and win decent money? A couple hundred
thousand? A couple million?

It's like when someone wants to trade stocks/derivatives. They may lose
massive amounts of money before getting their sea-legs and that is a price
that is far too high for most people (and their families) to endure without
gaining anything tangible.

And I wouldn't think that "Professional Poker Player" is a title that would
land a high paying job like a university degree might. If someone is spending
all their time learning to be a pro poker player, it might back them into a
corner where now that's all they're are capable of doing for the rest of their
life whether they win or not.

Variable reward systems, like gambling, are damn hard addictions to break once
conditioning has set in.

~~~
ptmx
Pursuing poker as a career is usually a poor decision for a variety of
reasons, but the cost of learning is not one of them.

The overwhelming majority of poker hands are now played online, and the limits
go as low as $0.01/$0.02 -- in today's poker landscape, the winning players
tend to be those who initially invest a small amount of money and gradually
climb the ladder with careful bankroll management.

The opportunity cost, on the other hand, can be very high. Many people waste a
lot of time trying to become good at the game without experiencing any
meaningful degree of success.

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vsloo
Sometimes a person needs to go to college in order to understand why it might
not be relevant for them. By simply touting that college is useless as a fact
seems too far-fetched for me. No one is born with an ability to assess going
to college as it is today. It's all social conditioning. To that end, college
is useful. If it can teach you something about yourself then the 2 or 3
semesters were not wasted time or money.

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Nate75Sanders
In 2006, you actually could fairly easily make $85K in a year playing poker.

Not anymore, though, and not for the past few years.

~~~
stuff4ben
what happened after 2006 that caused the dropoff in payout?

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Nate75Sanders
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_Internet_Gambling_Enfo...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_Internet_Gambling_Enforcement_Act_of_2006)

That scared off a lot of the fish, plus, in mid-2007 (I think?) the biggest
payment processor, Neteller, got busted by the US Attorney's Office (I hope
I'm remembering all this correctly), which made it so that even the fish that
were left around couldn't keep re-filling their accounts.

Also, there was a wealth of information about how to play by 2006-2007 and
there were a lot more absolute numbers of good players which, with the
decreasing supply of fish led to a much higher concentration of good players.

From early 2006 to early 2008, the game had changed so dramatically that it
was guys who used to crush NL400 ($2/4 NLHE) couldn't beat NL100 (50c/$1 NLHE)

~~~
naner
He's not talking about playing poker online.

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anuraj
It depends. Depending on the field of study, university may be a pass time or
where you cut yourself out for greater challenges. If you are into a deeply
technical subject, college is pretty much the only option. If you want to get
by studying humanities and few easy courses, you can as well help yourself
without spending all that money for college.

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naner
I found it odd that there is no direction here. What are you working towards?

Also Tynan seems to be making the mistake of giving advice on _how to be
Tynan._ This isn't really anything to do with "hustling" or an MBA (Is Tyan
running a sucessful business? It appears not).

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hiphopopotamus
Meanwhile back on earth...

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tlrobinson
He "left with zero additional skills after three semesters" in college, and is
now advising people to make money playing poker? I'm having a hard time taking
this seriously.

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freshfey
Articles like these (although it has some good points in it) give the word
'hustler' a bad reputation in this world.

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srehnborg
I lost focus after he talked about how easy poker was to make $85k a year.

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ulisesrmzroche
And here I thought the answer to life was 42, not Poker.

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taw9
I encourage EVERYONE to follow this phenomenal advice!!!

... and when the next tech bubble bursts, I look forward to picking up good
CHEAP programmers without college degrees.

MWAH HA HA!

