
Show HN: My friends just built a Bitcoin casino - replayzero
http://bitino.com/
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impostervt
I gave it a shot with 0.1 BTC. Funds were available to start using a few
seconds after I sent them. Went up a bit, got a 10, decided to cash out. Funds
can't be withdrawn until the initial transfer has been confirmed 6 times
(standard w/ bitcoins).

Fun, simple. GJ.

~~~
impostervt
6 confirmations finally occurred, was able to withdraw. So, all in all, no
problems.

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stwe
<http://bitino.com/about/> says I have to keep my game URL private otherwise
people can steal my BitCoins, but there is no HTTPS? No deal.

~~~
phreeza
Cut them some slack, this is obviously as MVP as it gets.

~~~
bitino
+1

~~~
celticninja
can you clarify what was said above, are bitcoins held in the same way
instawallet does?

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joosters
"Bitino is a games company based in London."

Then you are breaking the law. UK-based gambling companies have to ensure that
customers are over 18. Running a gambling game that uses anonymous payments
goes against this principle!

~~~
semanticist
You could still do identity verification using either a 3rd party service, or
by getting sight of ID documentation. (Certified copies of passports posted
out, for instance. Sounds mad, I know, but I worked at a gaming start up and
we had to do that for some customers!)

In fact, you'll have to do that ANYWAY to be compliant, regardless of the
method you use to fund accounts.

~~~
joosters
True, although by the time you've signed up and proven ID, you've lost the
'spontaneous' appeal of the site (making it quick and easy to have a bet). I
guess the site still has the advantage of low-cost money transfers and no risk
of chargebacks, so bitcoins may have a use here.

I wonder if it is possible to use bitcoins and comply with the UK gambling
restrictions against money laundering? At first glance, it looks impossible,
bitcoins being (supposedly) untraceable. However, you _might_ be able to
comply if you insist that winnings are always paid back to the same bitcoin
wallet that they came from. The justification here being that your website
won't have 'washed' the money any further than it was already laundered.

~~~
semanticist
Limiting the 'spontaneous' gambling is part of what you have to do to comply
with Gaming Commission rules - you have to include ways to limit the amount of
money deposited or gambled, and you have to provide a mechanism to self-
exclude, or ban yourself from playing.

I'm more interested to see if these guys get shut down or if the Gaming
Commission would turn a blind eye. I notice no available contact details on
the site or domain name registration. (Good for avoiding the law, bad for
making me trust you with my money.)

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phreeza
This mixing of algorithms and gambling in the provably fair section got me
wondering: Couldn't one set up a kind of market for randomness? Basically you
could buy and sell a variance in exchange for an expected value, and people
that agree on a trade send bitcoin (or whatever) to a third party, which then
draws and pays out the corresponding amount to each party.

It would make for some moderately interesting math, I wonder if there would be
an interest in such a service? Basically casinos could then wrap this
marketplace and have people gamble, with their expected gains being at a sort
of market optimum.

~~~
Bjartr
I'm not sure if I understand, do you mean something like this?
<http://gamesbyemail.com/News/DiceOMatic>

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jerguismi
I don't really understand why "provably fair" would be so big deal. The house
is winning always, no matter what. But I don't gamble myself, so perhaps I
don't uderstand that world that well.

~~~
bitino
Provably fair means the shuffle and order of the cards are verifiably random
and also that they cant be changed once the game has started.

Provably fair means you know exactly what you are dealing with before you
start. Game payout odds are clearly displayed in the payout table.

~~~
vy8vWJlco
My gut feeling is that since it's using a repeatable number-generator (without
which it wouldn't be "provably fair" as you have described), it might be
possible to game by client-side pre-evaluation of the sequence. Even if the
whole sequence isn't finalized until the initial bitcoin transfer is made (I
only have the information provided on the site to go on...), it might be
possible (for example) to strategically transfer/commit, at a known/manageable
cost, but simply not play the hand (abandon the transfer) unless the payout is
greater than your expenses, circumventing the game's long-run behavior
entirely. We don't have server code to look at (github?), but we all have
access to python's libraries and can seed our own PRNG after the transfer in
order to evaluate the hand/sequence.

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DanBC
Is any of the equipment based in England? You might want to check the Gambling
Commission website to check if you need a licence.

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npguy
Just curious, how this link was posted anew, since there was one on HN
previously?

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5293812>

~~~
phreeza
heh, it seems one has a trailing slash and the other doesn't. I knew the dupe
detector could be tricked by a trailing #, but this is new to me.

~~~
npguy
ah - got it.

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zumth
I'm wondering about the security of the generators and hashes you use. SHA-256
is to my knowledge fine, however the Mersenne twister used by Python isn't
(see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersenne_twister>, although there may be
modifications in Python). You have little plaintext, so I can't really find
anything obvious, but given the nature of the site, you may want to use
something cryptographically secure.

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bitino
nothing like getting on the front page of HN when you are no way ready for it.

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Xcelerate
I was saving the private URL's (e.g. <http://bitino.com/uQWyylFetc...>) to go
back to and withdraw my cash later. (My browser cookies clear upon exit). The
pages show the correct bitcoin balance, but they're not letting me withdraw!
It says I haven't played a game, so even when I go ahead and play another, it
still says "You haven't played yet!"

Could you fix this ASAP because I actually put a decent amount of money in
this...

~~~
BitCoinWarrior
You posted 33 minutes ago. Give them a chance to reply and resolve your issue

~~~
Xcelerate
Okay, I revoked the accusation. I'm afraid my instinct is to mistrust people
by default. We'll soon see if my instincts are wrong.

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EwanToo
On initial glance, and I may be a million miles off here, it feels like the
history section which shows payouts is rather redundant.

It seems like there's nothing to stop the casino inserting their own played
games (either real but fixed, or entirely faked) to "adjust" the balance of
historical payouts in one direction or another?

The concept of the public seeds is clever though

~~~
nwh
> The concept of the public seeds is clever though

It's what all the other bitcoin gambling websites do. I can't hotlink it, but
visit here[0] and click "verification" in the top right.

[0]: <http://satoshidice.com/#>

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scottlilly
I'd be concerned about running an online casino with a .com domain. The US
government has a track record of seizing domains.

[http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/feds-seize-
foreign-...](http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/feds-seize-foreign-
sites/)

~~~
Ovid
But this is what is really interesting about it. If the US government moves to
shut this casino down, are they admitting that bitcoins are money?

~~~
bitino
we are not a casino. this is a tiny side product built by a couple of guys
over a couple of days to explore bitcoin.

~~~
Ovid
Why are you not a casino? People gamble with bitcoins and can win more
bitcoins. Your site describes itself as "Win Bitcoins playing classic exciting
gambling games at our Bitcoin Casino. Fair and Verified Games. Instant
Withdrawals."

My apologies if I've mischaracterized you, but a casino is "a public room or
building where gambling games are played." bitino seems to clearly be an
online variant of that.

(Edit: can't grammar)

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duqee
I like the idea, but I could not even see the menu! I had this annoying video
overlaying the menu: <http://pbrd.co/Z60dPK> It seems like it stuck in place.

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bitino
you can see the game in action here - <http://bitino.com/about/>

~~~
dan1234
FYI, there are a few typos in that page:

    
    
      "ammounts" should read "amounts"
      "Private Game URL's" does not need an apostrophe
      "You muse keep your game" should read "You must keep your game" (I'm guessing that one)

~~~
bitino
fixed. thanks

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michaelochurch
Flagged. Bitcoin is a scam designed to make money for early adopters.

~~~
hcho
You are aware of the fact that YC funds at least one Bitcoin related start-up,
right? Flagging this for being a scam is a bit ironic, in the Alanis
Morissette sense.

