
US Nuclear Missile Silos Still Use Floppy Disks - ForHackernews
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/04/28/huge_floppy_disks_and_other_old_tech_is_common_at_air_force_nuclear_missile.html
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toufka
The military still use bolts! And screws! And I bet if you look really hard
you can find a copper wire! Some of these things are hundreds of years old!

If it works, why change it? So long as they can find a supplier of new floppy
disks for the data, it seems pretty reasonable to me (and given they're
nuclear missiles, a few dozen grand per disc really doesn't seem that bad).
Now if there are no more suppliers of those disks at all, and no way to
read/write to them (at all), then we should start being a bit more concerned.

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hayksaakian
I suppose the main contention is that copper, bolts, and screws last much
longer than vinyl/magnetic strips.

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josephkern
The longevity and ease of destruction is probably a primary concern for this
media.

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jimueller
These systems are designed to do one thing and do it well, without error. They
have been in place a long time. Because they are old does not mean they are
not secure. Much like the Apollo mission computers are often quoted as being
"less powerful than a calculator" does not mean that they do not work. Many
military computers are not impressive from a hardware standpoint because they
don't have to be.

~~~
npizzolato
Or said another way: nasa can go to the moon on hardware less powerful than a
calculator. What kind of specs does the latest photo sharing app take to run?

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drill_sarge
Weren't the launch codes set to 0000000 or something because for convenience
for decades? So no need to upgrade to larger storage for this.

edit: found it [http://gizmodo.com/for-20-years-the-nuclear-launch-code-
at-u...](http://gizmodo.com/for-20-years-the-nuclear-launch-code-at-us-
minuteman-si-1473483587)

~~~
dba7dba
Well before the launch codes were FORCED onto the generals, there were
supposedly about a dozen generals who could launch nukes on their own without
specific authorization from the POTUS.

Understand this was allowed initially in case POTUS was incapacitated or cut
off from communication but still...

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MichaelGG
You'd think they'd use an m-of-n system requiring 2 or more generals to agree.

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massysett
Phew. If they "upgraded" these things so they would work "in the cloud" or
whatever then I'd be concerned. I certainly don't want to see a story about
how generals can now launch the missiles from an iPhone app.

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clarky07
doesn't have to be in the cloud to have USB and thumb drives. i'm not sure it
makes sense to use 8-in floppy drives.

EDIT: what happens when a drive dies? there just aren't a lot of new 8-in
drives to be had i don't think. Do we have a special supplier that sells them
for 10k each?

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cnvogel
Assume that a ridiculous amount of effort went into designing and testing this
device, and that this 8in drive is connected to devices that will not have an
sd-card reader or USB controller available for $5 off eBay.

It might just be cheaper to buy 100 8in drives for 10k each, instead of
upgrading the control systems to use thumb-drives. You'll also have to do all
the paperwork to change documentatino from "insert Top-Secret launch diskette
into drive" to "put Top-Secret micro-sd card into the top-secret-launch-
diskette-substitude-reader-assembly (TSLDSRA)".

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bigmario
Security through obscurity? Old technology and keeping disconnected from the
Internet are probably decent additional security measures, although they
shouldn't rely on it. Like the article says though, we still want these
computers to be new enough to actually _work_

~~~
ghshephard
"Old technology and keeping disconnected from the Internet are probably decent
additional security measures, although they shouldn't rely on it. "

It's called an airgap, and is easily the most effective countermeasure to
cyber attacks, and, in conjunction with physical security and careful 2-man
control/people management, should certainly be relied on.

~~~
chiph
The airgap technique didn't work so well for the Iranians. Stuxnet was
designed to jump gaps via USB keys. Luckily, 8" floppies don't have enough
capacity for a virus.

~~~
hcarvalhoalves
> Luckily, 8" floppies don't have enough capacity for a virus.

I'm positive you can fit an interesting virus on a double sided one (the most
common I believe).

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chiph
You're right - I forgot my MS-DOS history. Ahh, the days of 5-1/4" floppies
and boot-sector viruses.

"Your PC is now Stoned!"
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoned_(computer_virus)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoned_\(computer_virus\))

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josephkern
Not everyday you see a Top Secret sticker flashed on national television. I
bet there are 20 intelligence organizations trying to read the label on that
floppy disk.

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beggi
I'm very happy not everybody shares the motto "move fast and break things".

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sirdogealot
I for one am glad that they are not incessantly restoring and renewing the
nuclear missile silos.

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leeoniya
in related news (not really news anymore)
[http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/bulletin/why-todays-
spacecra...](http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/bulletin/why-todays-spacecraft-
still-run-on-1990s-processors/)

i read somewhere that they had to resort to buying them on ebay in the
specific binning/stepping cause they were no longer made by the mfg

~~~
Jtsummers
> i read somewhere that they had to resort to buying them on ebay in the
> specific binning/stepping cause they were no longer made by the mfg

This wouldn't surprise me. A friend was working on a defense project, an
avionics system. In their test/development lab they had the hardware itself,
same as what's in the aircraft (an F-??, 16 probably). The display died. They
couldn't do anything with it. They ended up having to contract with someone to
set up the manufacturing process and conduct a one-time production run. The
damn displays pushed 6-figures in cost each.

Unfortunately, modernizing these systems isn't as easy as just hooking up a
modern LCD/LED display, minimally they'll have to insert some new circuit to
sit between the display controller and the incompatible display to do
translation. That means one more part that has to be developed with a
maintenance plan setup, testing and certification done. It's kind of sad that
spending close to $100k for a 6" display is cheaper than moving to a new
display that would likely cost much less in the long run.

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beedogs
Considering how US government pensions are administered, I am not at all
surprised other branches of government are using antediluvian tech.

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2014/03/22/sinkhol...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2014/03/22/sinkhole-
of-bureaucracy/)

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jonnybgood
Frankly I don't see any need to throw tax payer money to upgrade the
technology while we are decreasing the arsenal.

~~~
Goopplesoft
Whats up with people trying to decide what budgets of these things should be?
If we're really so capable of doing back of the envelope calculations on
things like "how much should I spend on maintaining nuclear silos?" why don't
we just cut out all the representatives, budgeting offices, inspectors,
financial planners, et al and set up a direct democracy?

Sarcasm aside, I don't know fuck all about nuclear silos let alone what say
$19 million or $400 million would be used for in regards to them. So perhaps
you can build your credibility on this matter some so your comment matters?

Not trying to rant but this reminds me of Paul Graham on the WhatsApp deal. He
said something along the lines of: "When I hear Facebook says its buying
WhatsApp for 16 billion, I think 'oh so thats what WhatApp is worth', like the
Federal Reserve giving inflation numbers." But our community of expert HN
company appraisers was quick to try to bash Facebook over their valuation.

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coreymgilmore
If its not broken, don't fix it...and make it vulnerable to Heartblees (yes, I
know the article states these systems are not connected to the internet).

On the other hand, these systems should be non-attackable via Stuxnet as USB
is quite a deal younger than Floppy and I don't believe Floppies can autorun
(correct me here please),

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fleitz
And contrary to the opinions of the General are probably massively insecure
because they were invented in a time before aleph one's famous paper even came
out.

Imagine a system so insecure that it will execute whatever the operator has on
a floppy disk with full root permissions.

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smacktoward
_> Imagine a system so insecure that it will execute whatever the operator has
on a floppy disk with full root permissions._

Congratulations, you just invented MS-DOS!

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MichaelTieso
"and though the missiles have been upgraded numerous times to make them safer
and more reliable"

A strange sentence for nuclear missiles.

~~~
hcarvalhoalves
Just like any weapon, you want it to be safe and reliable - _specially_
nuclear missiles.

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josephkern
Weapons are tools (admittedly tools for separating nervous systems from
muscles as quickly as possible), all tools should be safe and reliable.

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dba7dba
Military STILL relies on internal combustion engine, technology developed
around 1860...

Sarcasm off...

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dredmorbius
And screwdrivers. Invented for knights in armor, for chrissakes!

