
Don't be evil: Moving everything off of Google - SamWhited
https://blog.samwhited.com/2013/07/dont-be-evil/
======
alan_cx
Depressing thread this....

I think this thread demonstrates why the privacy issues with the likes of
google, facebook, etc are pretty much vapor complaints. Essentially, people
are happy in the end to sacrifice privacy for convenience. With that mind set,
we can easily see why no one really cares about NSA slurping. As far as they
are concerned, all the NSA has is what facebook, gmail etc, have. So, what is
the problem exactly? And you know what, I can understand the point. I
disagree, but equally, I understand.

Having read about how people won't move form FB because it easy to stay there,
since their "friends" are there, I now realize most people really are not
committed to privacy while it means some sort of inconvenience. There is even
a reply here where a friend who wont use facebook is referred to as an
"outcast"... Understandable, but also says it all.

Depressing.

~~~
VikingCoder
You're presenting a false choice: It's entirely possible to care about
privacy, and still use Facebook and GMail.

Simply pretend that everything you post on Facebook and GMail is in the public
domain, posted in the public square.

If I never share anything I don't want public, then my privacy is guaranteed.
I'd advise others with privacy concerns to do the same.

Given that you _NEVER KNOW, EVER_ that you can _100% trust_ the people you're
sharing with (no matter which media you use), I think people are kind of crazy
to act any other way.

~~~
LoganCale
Facebook tracks your external web browsing history through the use of their
embedded buttons, and links that history with your profile. So even if you
don't post private information to Facebook, they're tracking your private
activity unless you take measures to block such buttons across the web.

~~~
VikingCoder
...or use Facebook in a different browser (or Incognito), or specifically log
out of Facebook when you're not using it.

Or only use it in the Facebook App on your phone, but never log your browser
in to it.

"Logging in" is completely broken on the internet - no argument, there.

~~~
LoganCale
The other two approaches may work, but

> or specifically log out of Facebook when you're not using it

will probably not, because they set tracking cookies that remain even when you
log out.

Complete speculation here, but if they're willing to do that, who's to say
they don't link traffic from known IP addresses as well? It might be linked
less strongly but in many cases could still be associated in some way. They
track web browsing for non-users already anyway, so if they can connect that
to existing users by IP I'd be fairly surprised if they didn't.

In order to prevent this, you have to block trackers in all your browsers and
devices with Ghostery or similar tools.

~~~
Orva
Browser user agent string alone is quite accurate identification [1]. Just add
IP/country data on top of that..

------
danieldk
Whenever I read such posts (moving everything off Google/FaceBook/...),
whatever the rationale, I feel like I am living in a parallel universe.

All my friends are on Facebook and as much as I dislike Facebook's piracy
invasion, it's an excellent tool to keep in touch with people.

I could drop Google Talk, but as much as federation is a good thing,
ironically I wouldn't have many people to talk to, since they use Google
Talk/Hangouts.

Perhaps a decentralised file sharing tool is better. But everyone is using
Dropbox and Bittorrent Sync will be too outworldish for
colleagues/family/friends.

~~~
Mordor
I've stopped using Facebook and behold - all my best friends are still here.
If a friendship can't exist without Facebook, then they probably aren't your
friend at all...

~~~
antimagic
Here's the thing. My friends and I use Facebook to organise evenings out and
other outings. We have one friend that refuses to use Facebook, so now we post
an event in Facebook, and then someone has to go to the effort of keeping the
outcast informed. It's actually quite a pain for your friends if you refuse to
use the tool that they are using to organise themselves. It makes your friends
do extra work to accomodate you...

~~~
jakobe
All my other tools don't track everything I do with them, don't sell the
information to advertisers, and don't spam me with dozens of emails.

I don't get why it's necessary to justify not using such a "tool".

~~~
disgruntledphd2
1) Facebook do not sell your information to advertisers. 2) The emails are
pretty easy to remove - case in point, I stopped them sending me emails in
2009, and have not received one since. Linkedin on the other hand, go straight
into spam because they just won't stop sending me mails...

~~~
jakobe
First thing I did was disable all email notifications. Not a trivial task: I
had to turn off like 30 different types of notifications one by one. However,
these sly bastards just kept coming up with new notifications, that were
turned on by default. So I kept getting emails from facebook, even though I
thought I had disabled all of them.

That was my experience a year or two ago. At some point I deleted my facebook
account, because the value I got out of it wasn't sufficient to tolerate all
those annoyances: changing email notifications, constantly changing privacy
settings and policies, annoying ads, annoying messages from people I barely
know...

~~~
disgruntledphd2
I got rid of everything a few years back. The only thing they introduced was
the mentions, and i disabled that a few weeks ago (after my friends learned
about it). I didn't have the same experience, to be honest. I found Linkedin
much more difficult.

Mind you, the constantly shifting privacy settings are weird, its easy to be
really granular (go to your Activity Log) but it is effort. You can also
change privacy on a post by post basis, but its sticky, so you need to be
careful. The ads never really bothered me (except for the dating ones just
after i came out of a long term relationship). In fact, I never ad-blocked
facebook because I could x out of ads I didn't want to see. The annoying
messages from people is not really Facebook's fault, though I feel your
pain....

------
buro9
I get the point of moving other services to places that are encrypted,
private, secure, and cannot be reached by NSA, GCHQ, etc.

But... email?

It goes over the internet in plain text, has substantial meta-data, and even
the contents are trivially small to store.

When people want to come off of G+, Facebook, etc... great, that makes some
sense. If they want to stop using Chrome Sync, and to use Firefox, install add
blockers, anti-trackers, change their hosts file, use VPNs, enable Tor, change
DNS provider... great, that makes some sense.

Email makes a lot less sense though. It's effectively public and what security
exists is about effective as your front door lock. It keeps out the average
person that passes by and little more than that.

There is actually some argument to be had that if most of your contacts use
Gmail that you should stay on Gmail as the email wouldn't route via the public
internet.

I am sticking with Gmail, but am using a Google Apps for Domains account for
it as that allows you to configure the domain to fully disable other Google
and related services (G+, YouTube, advertising, Drive, etc). I then access
Gmail via Chrome Incognito and live the rest of my internet life in Firefox.

Effectively Google for me, starts each day afresh, sand-boxed in a private
browser session, and with no permission to do anything else.

The only other Google things I used they have already shuttered or have
announced they're doing so. Effectively when this happens I am one of the n%
who don't move to G+ and roll off of Google services.

I do wonder if we'll ever hear what % of users didn't go to Hangouts when they
re-branded and closed Talk. What % of Latitude users will vanish when G+ gets
whatever location sharing capability. Maybe it's negligible to Google, but it
doesn't _feel_ negligible when I speak to friends who used to use Google a lot
more.

~~~
ekianjo
Did you read the post? He does not mention NSA or security as one of the
reason to get off the Google services. Not one bit.

"The recent Google Reader shutdown and Google Hangouts disabling XMPP
federation made me realize that any of my services could go at any time and I
didn’t want to be so dependant on a single provider or the integrations
between services."

~~~
fauigerzigerk
He also said he had stopped using Google search, which is entirely
inconsistent with his "could go at any time" reasoning. Clearly there must be
something else that motivates his actions.

~~~
betterunix
Maybe he does not like having his search results tampered with at the behest
of the MPAA?

~~~
taopao
DDG uses Bing, Bing honors takedowns, ergo DDG is "tampered".

------
gordaco
"When you’re paying for your social network, it makes you a customer instead
of a product".

Wrong, you're _still_ a product. The "consumer vs. product" dilemma is a false
one.

~~~
ekianjo
Please explain. Are you saying that App.net is using your data anyway to sell
ads or something else?

~~~
robryan
Well, not sure what the OP is suggesting but your content is definitely a
product that is attract other users to also pay.

~~~
ekianjo
Maybe, if he turns it in this way. I was however referring to what Apps.net
says on their about page: [https://app.net/about/](https://app.net/about/)

"We are selling our product, NOT our users.

We will never sell your personal data, content, feed, interests, clicks, or
anything else to advertisers. We promise."

~~~
Volpe
Yet if there was no content, there would be no product... so they are selling
your content.

Which means they are just lying in their about page.

~~~
dotmanish
" _to advertisers_ " are the important words to note in their claim.

------
babuskov
The site uses Google hosted jQuery. Guess being tracked by Google is not an
issue for them. ;)

~~~
hnha
if Google was nice and concerned with people's privacy they would not log
anything on those hosted files but a simple integer hit counter.

------
Kiro
Am I the only one who want the opposite? I love having everything seamlessly
tied to one ecosystem. The synergy effects are worth it and I can't see a
better company than Google to handle it.

~~~
markeganfuller
>and I can't see a better company than Google to handle it.

Google hasn't exactly been a good company recently, at the very least the
whole reader issue has caused a lot of worry.

~~~
sbuk
Not to forget the _alleged_ heavy involvement in PRISM.

------
cromwellian
Any web service could "go at any time", in fact, the smaller players are more
likely to fold up shop, not give advanced warning, and not offer something
like Google Takeout. It's happened before. Some smaller players in the past
didn't even have good backups, and simply lost user data. You could self-host,
but again, unless you want to put a lot of labor and money into reliability
and security, you can also lose.

I'd call the reasoning used in this article "Reader Derangement Syndrome".

~~~
dave5104
I'd certainly trust Google to shut down a product more gracefully than a
startup.

------
moreentropy
You can't call it "everything" if you keep Gmail.

Personal email would be the most important service to get under your own
control, and it's the hardest of all problems to solve.

~~~
robotmay
ZoHo Mail isn't bad, I've been using that instead of Google Apps at the
moment. Ideally I want to switch to my own server but I never relish the
thought of setting one up.

~~~
nkorth
I recently switched from my own server to Zoho.

------
dmytton
[http://dbpmail.net/essays/2013-06-29-hackers-replacement-
for...](http://dbpmail.net/essays/2013-06-29-hackers-replacement-for-
gmail.html) is a good tutorial on replacing GMail.

GMail is excellent at search and spam filtering, everything else is just a
standard e-mail service. The tutorial points out how you can at least try and
match the level of spam filtering with the community based Pyzor.

~~~
skriticos2
Don't underestimate search though. Being able to quickly find information
(content, contacts, etc.) from years of unstructured eMail communication with
a simple search box is very powerful. At work I have to use Lotus Notes and
Outlook and compared to Gmail they really seem stone age when it comes to find
information in the archive.

~~~
ekianjo
Very true. Gmail does that very well, but that's not something you cannot
solve if you are very disciplined on how you use, store and archive emails.
Gmail makes it frictionless, and that's probably one of its biggest assets,
but in some workplaces, as you mentioned, people are forced to use Notes or
Outlook and you learn to live with it. It's not always as frustrating as you
might think. For example, I am certainly much more "messy" in the way i use
email with Gmail since I know I can find things easily, but that may be a
disservice to act this way in the end. You form bad habits.

------
efa
>> _why do I want my calendar to be online anyways_

Wow, my Gmail calendar is the one thing I can't see doing without. View from
anywhere, seeing my team members schedule, adding invites to each other's
calendars. It's pretty much my task (or reminder) list as well.

------
robotmay
Thanks for the Photographer.io mention! I was about to deploy Dutch and Polish
language support when I noticed the traffic rolling in, so I'll be leaving
that for a few hours now in case I break it.

If anyone has any questions about privacy on Photographer.io or any other
general questions then I'd be happy to answer. You can also email them over to
support@photographer.io if you prefer.

~~~
Rustan
Great site! Switching over from 500px.com

~~~
robotmay
Glad you like it! Make sure to let me know of any problems you find or ideas
you have; I love getting feedback on it :)

------
tomkarlo
Maybe if he was using Google to host his site, it would still be up.

(Yes, I'm being glib, but with a point - there are real downsides to moving
away from services like Google that have industrial-strength cloud services
behind them. Just because you can move to other things or self-host to improve
privacy doesn't mean there aren't major tradeoffs.)

------
edem
As for music I think that for Linux (I guess you probably use Linux since
Windows is just as evil as Chrome or Facebook) XMMS is still the best player.
I use it for years now and I never had problems with it. It also comes with a
Winamp-like interface and functionality.

~~~
robotmay
I've been using 'cmus' recently, which is pretty decent. Far less issues with
pulseaudio than with a lot of the other players.

~~~
zxcdw
A fellow cmus user here, I can only second the awesomeness of it and
encougrage everyone interested in client-side music playback to try it out.

------
jusben1369
As we know all services are vulnerable at any time to disappearing. Startups
failing, large companies sunsetting. It then appears the question becomes
"What is the cost to me of this service going away?" where cost can be how
long it would take to move to a comparable offering at that time. Then you way
that up against "How much am I giving up each day/week/month if I use a
service I want less but am doing so due to my fear of being "all in" and at
the mercy of Google's whims?" So when I see an article like this (which I
enjoyed) I tend to think the above is simply out of whack with a "I'm getting
off every service"

------
visarga
I think it's a time of opportunity now. Someone could become the provider of
private internet experience to uproot Google, Apple, MS and the rest.

We need a single, all in one solution for all the basic things: email, search,
video, photos, social networking, calendar, sync and maps. Have I forgotten
anything? Another essential app is a Tor-like browser with strong privacy
support.

All of this needs to be bundled in a private cloud app capable of handling
from one person to a group with thousands of people, like, for example, a
university.

We need to be able to own our own data, to have access to our logs and to be
the only party who has access to our logs. This whole thing needs to be open
source and thoroughly tested.

------
Joeboy
Paper calendar suggestion seems kind of defeatist. I just switched to
[http://radicale.org/](http://radicale.org/) (from my old nokia phone
calendar, not from google) and it seems fine so far.

~~~
kryten
I spent several years using outlook, apple ical and windows live calendar. I
then ended up having to write a backend for icalendar protocol and saw what a
shit crock everything is. It's a miracle any of it works.

Last year I moved back to a paper diary and a mechanical pencil. It is
considerably more flexible, readable and editable. I hit several brick walls
with computer based calendars particularly with having to add complex events
like "every third Friday but not the 25th because I'm on holiday then".

Free form is sometimes better than structure.

Its like going from a relational database to a document store.

~~~
icebraining
If you want a flexible calendar application that can handle rules like that,
you need Remind[1].

For example, if you want to be reminded every third Friday of the month,
except on 19th of July because you're on holiday, you can write:

    
    
      OMIT 19 July MSG Holiday
      REM Fri 15 SKIP MSG My Event
    

Now you ask it to print the events for the next six months:

    
    
      $ remind -s6 test.rem
      2013/07/19 * * * * Holiday
      2013/08/16 * * * * My Event
      2013/09/20 * * * * My Event
      2013/10/18 * * * * My Event
      2013/11/15 * * * * My Event
      2013/12/20 * * * * My Event
    

As you see, it skipped "My Event" on the July 19th, because it was an Holiday.

[1]:
[http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products/remind](http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products/remind)

~~~
kryten
I can't really be bothered with all that after basically writing that entire
solution for a private company. Another metalanguage to learn...

Plus I have to have a network connection and log into a UNIX box for it which
I can't do whilst I'm on the phone as it's stuck to my head at the time.

------
jalada
All good suggestions, but heavily focused on non-collaborative solutions. For
example a paper calendar is no good if you regularly use your colleagues
calendars to schedule events and know what is going on.

~~~
ekianjo
Well, people have been living with paper calendars for dozens of years and
were still able to launch rockets and stuff. I think we overestimate the
usefulness of some digital tools. Making it easy to schedule meetings often
results in tons of unnecessary meetings - it's better to have some friction
there. But I guess it really depends what you do - there are certain use cases
for digital calendars, but in my experience the way they are used is
unproductive.

~~~
reeses
I hate working with people who send me a note after they've already sent me a
meeting request, telling me that they saw an opening on my calendar and have
set up an hour-long meeting with no agenda.

It's a weird combination of laziness and an unwillingness to use other tools
(email, issue tracking, typing). If they just typed up an agenda (heck,
Confluence has a template ready) we could probably wrap up the whole thing
while I'm goofing around on HN.

Having to go through an EA/PA to schedule meetings is one of the best ways of
exchanging money for time, plus you end up having _one_ person who never makes
you cringe, unless you start worrying that they're giving notice because
they're starting their own company or moving across the country.

------
stettix
Another cloud file storage service worth checking out is Jottacloud
([http://www.jottacloud.com](http://www.jottacloud.com)). It has similar
features to Google Drive and Dropbox but being based in Norway, it complies
with stricter laws on privacy and data ownership. See for example the question
"What does it mean for me that my files are stored in Norway?" in their FAQ
([http://www.jottacloud.com/faq/](http://www.jottacloud.com/faq/)).

~~~
frebdel
A similar service is Wuala ([https://www.wuala.com/](https://www.wuala.com/)),
which is owned by the French company LaCie. They say your files are encrypted
using AES-256 before they leave your system and the key stays with you.
Apparently the only thing their employees see is the number of your files and
their size. Their servers are in Switzerland, France and Germany.

------
tn13
Most people are ignoring the biggest problem that Google is causing. Gmail's
virtual dominance in email field is going to be extremely hurtful for the rest
of the hacker and startup community.

At the end of the email marketing remains the numero uno method of user
acquisition and retention. With the new features such as priority inbox and
automated classification of personal emails/promotion emails it is going to
make it impossible for new consumer web startups to succeed.

~~~
h2s
If GMail kills email marketing, I will walk all the way around the world to
Palo Alto and personally shake Larry & Sergey by the hand. Nobody likes email
marketing, not even the people building their livelihoods on top of it.

If Google managed to snuff out such a widely reviled marketing channel, it
would be an enormously disruptive force in the tech industry. And disruptive
forces aren't hurtful for the startup community at all. Disruption makes room
for innovation.

Sure, it'd be bad news for SendGrid, but it'd be awesome news for some lucky
group of people in the 2015 YC batch.

~~~
tn13
Absolutely. As users we would all love if we get "no promotional" emails in
our inbox. But this is going to give power to Google to decide which email get
delivered and which does not giving an bias towards which company makes more
money than others. Which is not good.

I would rather see a more distributed and open system that helps people get
rid of the promotional emails or not.

------
znowi
_The recent Google Reader shutdown and Google Hangouts disabling XMPP
federation made me realize that any of my services could go at any time and I
didn’t want to be so dependant on a single provider or the integrations
between services._

It's interesting how the recent NSA revelations didn't play a role in this
decision. Providing NSA access to user data - Fine, whatever. Shutting down a
service - How dare you! Evil company! Consumerism trumps the civil rights.

------
SamWhited
Thanks for the comments and suggestions all; I've updated the post with some
of the suggestions people have emailed to me (diff:
[https://github.com/SamWhited/blog.samwhited.com/commit/62f00...](https://github.com/SamWhited/blog.samwhited.com/commit/62f00e5cd952f7b5fd0a0c137000139ba4455fd6)).

~~~
jancborchardt
ownCloud designer here, thank you for all the shout outs!

There’s also a great RSS feed reader for ownCloud since some time:
[http://algorithmsforthekitchen.com/blog/?p=580](http://algorithmsforthekitchen.com/blog/?p=580)
– installable from the App settings, would be cool if you can add that.

------
superuser2
Where is he hosting this stuff? What makes you think Linode/DigitalOcean et al
would violate US law to protect a customer?

------
ssharp
Such action is extremely impotent if you still keep Gmail. Aside from chat,
email is the most private service on the list and failing to give up on that
exemplifies how people value convenience over privacy. This type of "activism"
is almost negative if you're fighting for better privacy.

------
Rustan
I've done the same, but switched to: * Autistici/Inventati
([http://www.autistici.org](http://www.autistici.org)) for email and jabber *
owncloud for files, calendar, news, contacts * cyanogenmod and f-droid instead
of vanilla android and google play

------
ds9
Lots of cheap web hosting providers offer webmail for one's own domain. Having
never used Gmail I can't compare the interface, but I find it friendly enough
and have no difficulty syncing the web view and Thunderbird (debranded as
Icedove) at home. Even semi-technical people can do this with a little effort.

I do use the Google search sometimes, and sites that retrieve from GoogleAPIs,
but frequently dumping all cookies, cache and such and changing browser
details will keep you off the radar if you wish.

People speak as if it's a big hassle to avoid depending on big companies - or
to avoid the tracking and wiretapping - and but it's really just a question of
the relative values one attches to privacy and convenience.

------
nathanb
FWIW, I use Linux and am fairly happy with Amazon Cloud Player.

The lack of Linux support for their downloader _is_ annoying, but I don't feel
the need to download entire albums particularly frequently. When I do,
spinning up a Windows VM is the work of but a moment (I haven't tried running
the downloader under wine, but it probably works well).

I don't mean to excuse Amazon for their Windows-only mindset or suggest that
lack of Linux support won't be a big deal for you, but don't let this post
discourage you from trying it in case you're a Linux user who wants to give it
a shot.

------
ikusalic
Keeping GMail invalidates almost all the other efforts. That is the frist
element of Google addiction that needs to go away. GMail is tying you down to
Google and is unfortunately hardest to break free from. My choice (at least
for now) is Fastmail.

Disclaimer: I feel strongly about this topic [1] and think that most of HNers
should too.

[1]: [http://www.ikusalic.com/blog/2013/06/04/case-against-
google/](http://www.ikusalic.com/blog/2013/06/04/case-against-google/)

------
blacktulip
OK, IMHO if you keep gmail, you have not left google. Having one service with
them and having multiple services with them are essentially the same.

I am trying to do the same thing. Problem is, I used my gmail address
everywhere already. My contacts know me by my gmail address. Dropbox
identifies me by my gmail address .. you know what I mean.

I moved my custom domain emails to fastmail. But my @gmail account can't be
moved. I really don't know what to do with it. I am stuck.

~~~
chris_mahan
Give yourself 1 year to migrate off. Tell everyone, services, etc. at the 6
month mark, put that in your sig. at the 9 month mark make an autoresponder.
at 12 month, close the account.

~~~
chris_mahan
Actually, don't close the account. Just let it lie dormant.

------
Estragon

       I had a bit of trouble adapting to the kinds of results I 
       was getting and what sort of language I used when 
       searching (I didn’t realize how tuned-in to Google’s 
       search algorithms my subconscious had become), but after 
       using it for a while I began to love it.
    

I'd love to read a tutorial about how to adjust search queries to suit DDG.
Maybe this is why I find it to be such a pain, and always switch back.

------
markshepard
Interesting, I have been in this line of thinking. Google has been as cavalier
about user data as the rest except that it has the holier-than-thou attitude.

Made the painful move back to firefox on all my computer after being used to
Chrome. I have started using DDG in desktops but still depend on google on my
mobile devices. Email, I am still stuck with gmail as the primary mail box
(Which I am actively working on to move out to paid account).

~~~
cromwellian
In what way has Google been "cavalier" about user data?

------
spoiler
I am very happy with the fact that Google personalises my search results,
because 99% of the time it does it right! I remember one time where it got in
the way, and getting "around" it didn't require too much effort.

Also, if I _need_ to find a replacement I will do it when necessary. I enjoy
being Google's slave, because I feel treated nicely & I am happy!

Although, the fact they dropped XMPP support is a bit sad.

------
SamWhited
Did another round of edits; if you sent me suggestions and they're not in
there I decided not to include them for some reason (or forgot about them).
Full diff here:
[https://github.com/SamWhited/blog.samwhited.com/compare/979c...](https://github.com/SamWhited/blog.samwhited.com/compare/979ccd9...HEAD)

------
olegp
I agree that it seems a little premature, but it's a good thought experiment:
could you move off Google if you wanted to?

At StartHQ we provide a list of automatically generated alternatives, in case
anyone wants to give it a go:
[https://starthq.com/apps/?q=google](https://starthq.com/apps/?q=google)

~~~
kasbah
I just took a look at Google Reader and the suggested alternatives are:

\- Google Voice

\- Google Contacts

\- SugarSync

\- Otixo

\- Dropbox

Not very helpful.

~~~
olegp
The automatic alternative detection kind of failed there. I'll update the list
manually.

In the meantime, you can find all the Reader alternatives just by searching:
[https://starthq.com/apps/?q=reader](https://starthq.com/apps/?q=reader)

------
lambda
One problem with moving away from Google is Google Maps. While OSM does have
some fine maps, they don't have navigation or business search. I use Google
Maps on my phone all the time to find "where's there a restaurant around here,
and how can I get to it?"

Is there any privacy-preserving service that does anything similar?

~~~
brini
Have you looked into OsmAnd [1] for Android devices? You may find it not as
slick as Google Maps, but it does have Points of Interest search.

[1] [http://osmand.net/](http://osmand.net/)

~~~
lambda
I tried OsmAnd. I needed to download a bunch of map data when I first
installed it; but once it had downloaded some of the maps, I still couldn't
view anything, it kept telling me that it was still downloading maps (I don't
know why it couldn't display the ones it had already downloaded).

Once it had downloaded all of the maps and would show me something, I tried to
get it to give me directions. I could not (and still cannot) figure out how to
set a destination. I scroll to a place I want to go, touch the menu button,
touch "show" or "follow", and get a message "please select a destination
first". I long press on where I want to go, which pops up a bubble that shows
my latitude and longitude (not, say, what businesses are there like Google
Maps does), and try doing directions from the menu again. Nope, "please select
a destination".

There is no search by address, or anything else. If I use Google Maps, I can
usually type in the name of the place I'm trying to go, and it will find the
address and from there find the route. Even being able to find the route from
OsmAnd has eluded me.

Ah. Just now, as I tried it again, I found that I could long-press on a
location, then touch the menu, touch "use location" (at the very bottom of the
menu, almost off the screen, and which apparently means "use the location that
I just long-pressed", not "use the location I'm at"), touch "destination",
choose to either navigate or show the route, and then get told that it can't
determine the route because the location is not available as I'm indoors
without good GPS signal.

It needs some substantial work before it's actually usable. For instance, it
needs a prominent search that will take the name of a business or an address
and route me there with a minimal number of touches and decisions, and even if
I'm indoors and don't have a good GPS signal.

I use mostly free software on the desktop, for my work. When I have time to
sit down and debug something and figure out how it works, I'm willing to put
up with a less than ideal interface; it's worth it that I have access to the
source, that I can fix bugs when I find them, that I can get in touch with the
original authors and pay them to fix a bug for me.

But when I'm trying to navigate to some new location on my phone on my
vacation, I need something that just works. I don't have time to fiddle around
with a lousy interface. I don't have time to look up the address of my
destination elsewhere, then scroll around the map until I can find that
address and go through a long press and several layers of menus before I can
get directions to it.

What we really need is freedom preserving software that just works. It doesn't
need to have every possible option and knob. It doesn't need to offer every
feature under the sun. It just needs to make it easy for me to find where I'm
going and tell me how to get there, without going through endless layers of
menus and making me figure out where the destination is in the first place.

~~~
brini
Agreed that OsmAnd's interface leaves much room for improvement. Even though I
have successfully used its navigation function for specific addresses, I have
also run into all the problems you outline. It does seem to get better with
each new release.

------
hellcow
I've been extremely happy with Fastmail.fm. It's a few bucks a month, and you
can't tell the difference between it and Gmail--as long as you delete emails
after you no longer need them, of course.

I also started using a pen & paper planner by moleskine rather than iCal. It's
actually very nice.

------
phxql
[https://mail.opera.com/](https://mail.opera.com/) is not that bad.

~~~
robotmay
Still waiting for the Linux client, but once that's about I'm going to give it
a proper go.

~~~
phxql
I didn't ment the desktop client, i wanted to point to their email services.

------
thinkinggorilla
I am a poor man using services of Google. Thanks Google. I want to know how
the alternative service users are so sure that this will solve their privacy
issues by not using Google services. Are they insiders in NSA, or NSA cannot
track you on other alternative services. HOW DO YOU KNOW ?

------
rednukleus
Its a shame that they put such a ridiculous linkbait title on an otherwise
good article.

------
neya
Isn't this something like pre-mature optimization? Most services (like Blogger
for example) haven't shut down yet and probably won't. So, just because Google
didn't support some open source protocol, doesn't mean we should suddenly
decide to move away from a service that's really been good so far.

If the service is good enough, then why bother switching providers? At the end
of the day all businesses want to profit . Also, it's a matter of personal
preference - Some like Gmail and some like Hotmail. But moving away from a
really good provider because it doesn't provide a 'feature X' (unless it
impacts you in anyway and makes it unusable) then I see no point in moving
away at all.

~~~
ekianjo
Because you see the trend coming. I just logged in my Picasa web albums a few
days ago after a long time and now it defaults into Google + photos BS. The
problem is, there are no more RSS feeds in Google + Photos. So I Have to use
Google + to get access to these pictures, unless I revert to Picasa Web
Albums. But it's clear Google will kill off Picasa Web Albums down the road
and the RSS feeds for your pictures as well. It goes against my interest as a
user, so I will actively be looking for ways out of Google as well. It's not a
"win-win" situation anymore.

~~~
cromwellian
And what online service are you going to find that a) stays up forever and b)
never radically changes the UI? Let's say you find a photo hosting service to
does RSS feeds, what guarantees to you have it'll last longer than Google? For
christsakes, Reader lasted 8 years for a free service, there are many non-
advertising/pay-fee services that have not lasted that long.

~~~
ekianjo
Self-hosted solutions, probably. Since we can't trust suppliers to deliver
their services consistently.

------
emehrkay
Damn, Google may have people locked in more than Microsoft of the 90s

------
pedromorgan
Maybe Google should create GoogleEurope, a seperate comany.. The already got
one offshore from the USA.. and it would bypass the USA also.. ;-)

~~~
WA
What difference would that make? They'd probably set up a big cable to
transfer data from Europe to the States anyways.

Recently, I asked an email newsletter service provider in Germany (like
Mailchimp) where they store all the people's email addresses. They use some
Amazon service with company HQ in Ireland. However, does that guarantee me
that Amazon doesn't transfer any of the data to US data centers?

------
samweinberg
>There’s no free membership, but I consider that a good thing.

You can sign up for a free App.net account with an invite. I have a few,
anyone interested?

~~~
sthatipamala
Yeah, I'd like one, please! Could you send it to the email in my profile? I
can't figure out how to contact you.

~~~
samweinberg
Sent!

------
unclekreepy
why be a google hater? .. they arent going anywhere for a while and only the
non used services get shut down.

~~~
SamWhited
As I mentiond, I'm certainly not a `Google hater.' I just don't want all of my
services in one basket because I want ot be less dependant on one provider and
the integrations between their services.

------
jpd750
Good idea, I may make the switch more entirely as well. I already have started
with DuckDuckGo

~~~
SamWhited
DuckDuckGo's pretty great — I started using it several months ago as an
experiment and once I got used to it realized I actually preferred it to
Google. The instant answers are fantastic and when they don't have what I want
I can just write it and submit a pull request on GitHub. Love it. Results
still aren't quite as good but they work 90% of the time (and I don't have any
problem going back and trying Google during the other 10%)

------
conformal
i did this several years ago, feels good knowing that google has to work hard
to spy on me versus me just giving them all kinds of info about myself via
search, etc.

the only thing i use is a throwaway gmail address that is mostly a spam
magnet.

------
Mikeb85
This seems silly. Google has been consistently less evil than Microsoft,
Apple, and even Amazon, and has the best services.

I'm all for alternatives (especially open source and non-US based
alternatives), but if Google is still the most convenient service provider at
the moment, I'll continue using them.

~~~
kryten
Evil is boolean if you ask me.

Corporations don't deserve a second chance either.

~~~
rustynails77
I have been somewhat of a Google fanboy (alright, too strong-a-term, but you
get the idea). I encourage people to leave Google - because you know what? If
enough people leave, Google will fight EVEN harder to stop blanket monitoring.
When I hear Google scream from the top of their lungs "innocent until proven
guilty" and "burden of proof required" then I will believe they are doing
enough. Maybe Google should change it's background color to black? Until then,
I fully support anyone who looks for alternatives.

------
_pmf_
The sad thing is that one would think that these migrations away from their
services should worry Google, but they are apparently offset by the benefit of
being able to concentrate on serving the sheeple.

------
puppetmaster3
You can use EU based GMX.com for email in USA. I do.

------
antonwinter
i kim dotcom gets his crypto email going, we can help google be less evil by
moving to that.

~~~
SamWhited
PGP and S/MIME work perfectly well. Personally, I'd be wary of any new crypto
solution until it had been extensively independantly verified and burned in
for several years.

------
vacri
_any of my services could go at any time [, like] Google Reader_

... a lead time of months, with daily notifications in the final month? But
he's willing to go with other cloud services?

As for the total abandoment of google products, it seems petulant. 'I won't do
Android, I'll do Cyanogen instead!'?

~~~
wutbrodo
Is there anything to this post but petulance?

------
paranoiacblack
Fuck it, I'm going to start writing my programs on punchcards and mailing it
to Github HQ to test the results of it. Then I'll handwrite letters to my
coworkers to finally switch away from the evils of email. For blogging, I'll
literally stand outside of coffee shops on a soap box and talk about how
boring I am. My only file storage will be a cabinet in my house. I'll hand
draw my own maps. I'll do organic searching through newspaper listings. For
social networking, I'll go outside and announce to the world how I'm feeling,
only accepting their emotions if they like it. For photography, I'm going to
buy a polaroid camera and keep the pictures in my cabinet. Fuck Android, I'm
bringing back rotary phones. My feed reader will be the random clippings at
starbucks.

Stay classy, HN.

------
yuhong
Let's trace the problems. I don't think Larry, Sergey, Eric, or Marissa have
security clearances, do they?

------
tteam
If you want a easy file storage, sharing and sync solution consider our Tonido
product ([http://www.tonido.com](http://www.tonido.com))

------
xwei
Move from one evil to another. Wasting the time. This is real world please!

~~~
eonil
No. Real world is full of various DNA, and we can breed less evil by choosing.

Moving from one to another is never wasting the time.

~~~
MoreConsiderate
I am reminded of this cartoon,
[http://pbfcomics.com/111/](http://pbfcomics.com/111/)

