
Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism? - zuzuleinen
I had an epiphany this year that I focus too much on myself and came to the realization that I might be a narcissist: I tend to talk too much about myself, I don&#x27;t enjoy listening to other people, I tend to judge situations only from my perspective, I have an inflated ego and take things too personal.<p>These traits have affected my personal and professional life and would really like to fix them.<p>I did some search on Amazon but it seems that all the books are written for people who were affected by narcissistic people. Couldn&#x27;t find any book for people who are narcissistic themselves and want to fix that.<p>Did anyone here had the same issues and can recommend me some tips&#x2F;books on how to deal with this?
======
ggambetta
Seeing a therapist might be infinitely better than reading a book, and not
just for narcissism. We're all broken in our own wonderful and unique ways.

I've been seeing a therapist for 5 years now, and the positive impact this has
had in my life and on my general self-awareness can't be overstated.

As engineers and tech people we have one tool that has proven incredible
useful in our careers: our brilliant rational minds. So we tend to think that
we can solve any problem in life with this tool. Turns out we can't; thinking
that therapy is somehow beneath us is pure hubris.

I also resisted therapy for a long time as a matter of principle. In high
school I learned about the id, ego and super-ego, and in my 17 year old wisdom
I thought _" This is all bullshit! Did the guy open someone's head and see
three parts? No! This is all made up!"_ Being unquestionable older and
hopefully wiser now, I've understood that _" all models are wrong, but some
are useful"_[0]. And therapy happens to have some useful models to offer.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong)

~~~
JonathanMerklin
Honest question, really trying hard not to word it in a standoffish way: what
do you get out of a therapist that can't be obtained from thought or general
conversation outside of therapy?

I don't think a "brilliant rational mind" is a prerequisite for coming to the
conclusion that you're spending money to lock someone in conversation with you
- someone that would not associate with you otherwise. To me, the relationship
is artificial and the lessons learned can be obtained for free. Therapy seems
to be conversational prostitution, more or less.

But you and others affirm that therapy has a positive ROI, and some people
recommend therapy with such vigor you'd think it was the only (or the
best/most efficient) way to get that return. I just don't see it, and to date
I haven't met a sufficiently elucidating explanation.

~~~
hoorayimhelping
A therapist is trained to spot things you miss.

It's like asking, "what does a junior engineer get out of being mentored by a
senior engineer that they couldn't just figure out by coding or reading
blogs?" A therapist brings things like context, breadth of knowledge, and
honesty. I felt like the therapist wasn't incentivized to sugar coat things to
spare my feelings, something close friends and family might do.

I am not sure about seeing one for 5 years, though. The point of a therapist
is to make themselves unnecessary, in my opinion - they're supposed to give
you the tools needed to do exactly what you're saying people should do -
understand their behavior and change it.

~~~
sounds
I agree that seeing a therapist for 5 years may indicate they're not actually
helping you progress.

I could offer a different data point, but since it's all subjective experience
anyway, just make your own call. I've enjoyed long-term therapy because I
found more things I wanted to work on. Ironically, it is my therapist who
reviews things on a regular schedule and asks, "why are you coming to therapy
now?"

(If your therapist isn't doing that, maybe that's a red flag that you are
being taken advantage of?)

~~~
Fnoord
> I agree that seeing a therapist for 5 years may indicate they're not
> actually helping you progress.

It may also indicate you really need the therapy. That's the conundrum.

You need sometimes assess (reflect), possibly with your therapist, how they
are aiding you effectively. In The Netherlands, there are waiting lists for
psychiatrists (and a shortage), as well as waiting lists for specialized
psychologists; hence they get paid either way. They'd rather have a client who
benefits from their therapy.

------
austincheney
Perhaps the closest opposite to narcissism is humility. One way to really
experience humility is to inject yourself into something truly foreign where
money is an insufficient remedy.

I don't know what that humbling experience will be for you. For me it was
living in Afghanistan for 2 years, of which one of those years I traveled
frequently and spoke with many people there. It doesn't matter how much money
you make as travel there is rough with great inconvenience and your housing is
tiny and drafty. In this circumstance any self-serving attention would not
improve the situation. You learn patience and comfort in the face of minor
imperfections.

I can promise you this: its the experience, whatever that is for you, that
will fix your narcissism. A book won't do it. You have to live it without
escape.

~~~
darrelld
Sorry but no. This will not fix narcissism.

Narcissists are broken people incapable of self-reflection and everything
centers around them.

They see everything in the world as being put here for their enjoyment. They
thrive off of attention (negative or positive) and it's the only time they
feel alive.

~~~
jshevek
Your definition is so simple. So clear. So absolute.

Nearly everyone is capable of self reflection. To think that an individual is
categorically incapable of it is to deny them their humanity.

~~~
ryder9
a lot of people's sense of self-reflection is skewed, i've seen people very
close to me with an entirely broken sense of self reflection which usually
just manifests as self-victimization

it has dumbfounded me at times because I, as you, thought everyone has some
sense of it and if they saw it they might change; but alas not always the case

~~~
jshevek
I agree that the quality of self reflection, and the quality of the outcome,
varies.

There is difference between having the ability to self-reflect, and having a
proclivity to self-reflect. Neither is the same as doing so effectively, and
neither speaks to the question of having a motive to make further personal
changes as a result.

The comment to which I was responding categorically denied certain people from
having even the ability. Ever.

------
throwaway9103
I just created an account to post a comment. I was raised by a narcissist, and
over the years I've, like you, come to realize how narcissistic I am too.

Narcissism has a terrible negative taboo associated with it, and rightfully
so, because it can drain the living shit out of the people close to the
narcissist. But you have to be careful not to be even harder on yourself about
it. Because that's how a narcissist would understand a character defect (i.e.
"oh I'm a terrible person worth scum"). For me I've found the very first thing
I had to understand was yes, I'm a narcissist, and that's terrible, and I need
to fix that ASAP, but, forgiveness is not only possible, it's necessary.

With that out of the way, I cannot recommend Alexander Lowen enough. After
years of research and self-exploration I've now landed on this guy and his
thoughts. Check out his book Narcissism: Denial of the True Self.

[https://www.amazon.com/Narcissism-Denial-True-Alexander-
Lowe...](https://www.amazon.com/Narcissism-Denial-True-Alexander-
Lowen/dp/0743255437)

One of the reviews on that page summarizes it very well: "Narcissism develops
when children are made to feel rejected, humiliated, and powerless, at the
same time seduced to feel special"

Edit: If that specific book doesn't appeal to you, see if any of Lowen's other
books resonate with you more

~~~
qzx_pierri
I just bought this book per your recommendation. Thanks so much!

~~~
throwaway9103
Awesome! Makes me happy

------
smartquestion
I'm not surprised that the literature on narcissism isn't helping you, because
looking for books to help overcome your narcissism is the last thing a real
narcissist would do. In their world view, the problem is always everyone else.
It sounds more like you're growing, and learning something about how your ego
operates, which is a good sign.

The question is how to grow further in this direction. In my life, the thing
that has helped the most with this so far is the practice of self-observation
as taught by certain spiritual traditions. Here's a brief summary: when you
observe how you react to things internally, especially if you can observe it
neutrally and without judgment, you begin to see a lot about how you've been
treating other people and why. The magic is that it then changes on its own,
without you having to do anything extra. Self-awareness and self-honesty are
the only ingredients you have to add. That's fortunate, because self-honesty
is already a lot. We have a strong tendency to lie to ourselves, rationalize,
and excuse nearly everything. On the plus side, the more that dissolves, the
easier it gets to be with yourself. Self-observation is the solvent.

If this approach interests you, one thing you might take a look at is the
books of Vernon Howard. (Don't be put off by their titles. The contents are
serious.) If you're sincere about self-work, they provide the clearest
explanation that I've run across. Self-observation is, of course, a classical
spiritual teaching, but Howard distilled it into modern language in a way that
is extremely direct and does not ask you to take on any belief (e.g. any
religious belief). The main thing that makes his writing different from so
much other self-help material is that he does not flatter or coddle the
reader. He gives it to you straight.

I also agree with the commenters who suggest working with a therapist, because
the ego behaviors you're asking about are typically rooted in past painful
experiences that created a need in us to armor ourselves against future pain.
Self-work seems to require journeying back into those realms in order to heal.
Then you can let go of your selfish behaviors because you just don't need them
anymore, just like you wouldn't wear a heavy suit of armor once you no longer
feel it's necessary. What doesn't work, in my experience, is trying to be less
selfish only in a rational or ethical way. That approach amounts to imposing a
censorship layer on top of what you actually feel, which is a form of self-
deception which only puts more weight on you and eventually collapses.

The thing to watch out for in finding a therapist is the personal connection
between you and them. The method matters less than the personal connection.

More generally, there are so many good suggestions in this thread that you
should probably pick the ones that have the most energy for you and give them
a try. Your sincerity is really the thing that will change this for you, so do
what feels most inspiring.

~~~
texasbigdata
I went to my therapist once and said "I have terrible news, according to this
book on narcissism, 8 of the 13 symptoms apply. I'm totally one. How can I fix
it? Is it fixable?"

And she smiled and said..."a real narcissist would never ask that."

~~~
kempbellt
That's the snarky wit of a great therapist healing you of your worry in a
single sentence.

------
simonw
I wonder if improv classes might help? I've been taking improv recently and
I've found it to be extremely interesting from the POV of learning to pay more
attention to other people.

The core to learning improv is learning how NOT to be the center of attention.
Everything is about supporting your team-mates: you have to pay extremely
close attention to what they are doing and look for ways to give them further
opportunities and make them look great.

Our improv instructor keeps on giving us exercises where if we take the lead,
we're losing. I can already feel myself becoming better at paying attention to
what other people are doing. One of the books we are reading for the class
even makes the case that improv can help people become better at remembering
each other's names.

I have no idea if improv classes are a useful way of combating narcissism, but
maybe they could help?

~~~
ferdbold
Funnily enough, back when I was doing improv at school/university, I've found
a great portion of the people there to be among the most self-absorbed people
I've ever met. A lot of them were genuinely funny people, but there was a lot
of ego, tribalism, people wanting to be stars, etc etc. It was actually one of
the reasons why I got scared out of continuing in a local league after
graduation, even if I'd done it for four years and thoroughly enjoyed it.

~~~
asdfman123
Same happened to me. I was deeply involved in the local improv community for a
few years, and it was great at first, but a few toxic people drove me away for
good.

My theory is it is a gathering place for people with narcissistic traits -- I
mean, part of the appeal is being the center of attention and having everyone
think you're brilliant and hilarious.

(Again, though, we all have narcissistic traits, but few of us are actually
full-on narcissists.)

------
scottlocklin
You seem like a fairly well adjusted fellow, if you've caught yourself being a
jerk and want to make positive changes. Maybe you're more of a minor league
egotist rather than an actual DSM narcissist. If you like keeping fit, it's
difficult to be that kind of a jerk if someone's beating the shit out of you
on a regular basis in a dojo. Sports in general are good for people living a
life of the mind (aka HN nerds); it chips away at common character defects
that come from being a disembodied brain waddling around. You'll expose
yourself to people from all walks of life who will give you immediate feedback
if you display bad character, and it will get you moving around and make you
humble.

If you enjoy history and literature, maybe Plutarch's parallel lives of
Alcibiades and Coriolanus; or Christopher Lasch's "Culture of Narcissism"
could provide some perspective. And as someone said below, Dale Carnegie's
book on winning friends and influencing people, 100 years later, is a really
useful, life changing book.

------
lukifer
I loved this line from Eric Weinstein's conversation with Garrett Lisi: "A
good scientist is engaged in a dialectic between arrogance and humility." A
dash of narcissism can be good, when contextually appropriate, and kept in
balance.

To that end, cultivate micro-habits, and pay attention to your emotional
responses. Whenever I feel a sting to my ego, publicly or privately, I now try
to embrace it, "take it on the chin", to be grateful for the lesson, to
explicitly choose to let someone else (or the Universe) win. It's difficult at
first, but it gets easier.

It's taken a long time to truly appreciate the line from Desiderata: "Listen
to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story".
Think of it as a matter of interpersonal respect first, and "correctness"
second. The human always has their reasons, right or wrong; when they feel
respected and heard, they're much more likely to be receptive to new
information or another point of view.

My secret meta-hack? Using narcissism to curb narcissism. From the Tao Te
Ching: "All streams flow to the sea because it is lower than they are.
Humility gives it its power. If you want to govern the people, you must place
yourself below them. If you want to lead the people, you must learn how to
follow them."

------
AndrewKemendo
I went down this rabbit hole a long time ago and saw a therapist about it. I
would suggest you do the same.

That said, they basically told me that if you're worried about being a
narcissist or trying to change it then you probably aren't a candidate for NPD
diagnosis. Simply put people with NPD don't even consider that they might be
wrong or flawed.

That doesn't mean you don't have something to fix, but it's worth seeing a
professional.

~~~
Domenic_S
Look at how he frames the question -- "I talk too much...", "I don't
enjoy...", "I tend to judge...", "I have an inflated ego..."

He doesn't think about his behavior in relation to other people. To the
narcissist, other people are simply background actors in the movie that is
their life. Why does this matter? Well, if you were living on a deserted
island, would it matter if you were a narcissist?

When he talks about the negative impact, he again frames it as it impacts him:
"These traits have affected my personal and professional life...". Nothing
about how it might have impacted other people's lives. We can therefore be
sure this post is an act of defense against change.

Further reading:
[https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2009/01/can_narcissism_be_cu...](https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2009/01/can_narcissism_be_cured.html)

~~~
AndrewKemendo
I understand, but the whole subtext is that he's taking responsibility, and
not blaming other people, something narcissists can't do.

~~~
Domenic_S
That's the trick: it seems that way, but really it's a trap/defense against
change. Narcissists are very, very good at seeming to others like they want to
fix something about themselves, all the while digging themselves in deeper
because deep down they don't _really_ think something is wrong.

He says "I tend to judge situations only from my perspective" \-- and then
proceeds to write this very public post completely from only his own
perspective. In another context we could call that lack of insight but for the
narcissist it's a feature, not a bug.

~~~
AndrewKemendo
Like other disorders NPD lies on a spectrum.

From a clinical perspective (I'm not a clinician but have been treated by them
btw) my understanding is that untreatable NPD presents as basically no remorse
and no introspection at all. What would be called a "sociopath" which isn't
itself a diagnosis.

So while yes I totally understand what you're talking about, that the
attention seeking of the post itself could be considered narcissistic I am
taking it at face value and saying there might be a possibility of some rehab.
So my suggestion og talking with a mental health provider is the right option
here.

~~~
Domenic_S
Im not saying he’s attention seeking although that could be the case. I’m
saying the form and content of his post shows his inability to see his world
from the perspective of other people - the people affected by his narcissism -
which is like I said before a feature of the disorder and the reason it is so
treatment-resistant.

None of this is to say I don’t think he should see a professional - he
absolutely should.

------
ninjakeyboard
Meditation + psychedelics? If you have a strong intention to change, it's
pretty left field but I'd consider taking that intention to peru and drinking
ayahuasca at a retreat. The effort poured into meditation will help you become
aware of your behaviours and why they are there, which is the starting point -
accepting that you have the problem rather than pushing it out onto people
around you. I believe that's a great place to start and that from there you
can make some progress.

There is often anxiety or fear underlying many pathological traits, and there
is lots of new research showing lasting changes from a single moderate to high
dose psilocyn administration for example
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5367557/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5367557/)

~~~
robocat
I know some narcissists that are deeply into taking a variety of drugs. Drugs
are _definitely_ not helping them at all.

~~~
jshevek
Yes! Anecdotally, I have known people with similar issues who were helped by
mushrooms or mdma. They seem to experience some fundamental change in their
perspective. However, that benefit came with one or maybe a few trips, not
ongoing consumption.

------
msaltz
Despite the goofy name of the site, I found this article to be really eye-
opening and helpful for me a few years ago when I had a similar realization:
[https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/the-art-of-
conversat...](https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/the-art-of-conversation-
how-to-avoid-conversational-narcissism/)

It has tips for changing conversation patterns to avoid conversational
narcissism.

~~~
Dragonai
Thanks so much for linking this - for a long time, I've been observing all of
these various types of responses in the conversations I've had over the years,
but never consciously named/categorized them to this extent. I've only ever
mentally filed away bits and pieces about correlations between someone's
responses and their personality. I really like how this article breaks it
down.

~~~
msaltz
Glad you enjoyed it :)

------
geoffbrown2014
Actively listen to the people in your personal and professional life as if you
were a scientist. Think about what they are trying to say to you beneath the
words. Do they want praise, recognition are they feeling stressed, happy?
People will tell you these things almost unwittingly.

When its time to respond try to frame what you say in the context of their
needs and what they have communicated. If you can't think of anything
immediately rephrase and confirm what they said and you can think about the
meaning of it later when you are post processing the interaction, again like a
scientist. You aren't going to be good at it at first. Experiment. Even if the
interaction turned out negative don't take it personal it's still another data
point to help you learn how to do it better.

By doing this procedure you can learn about how your emotional system works
and how human dynamics work and when its appropriate to talk about yourself in
conversation. It takes time and it has a lumpy reward curve, but it is very
satisfying.

------
macieklaskus
I'm not sure if using the word "narcissism" is helpful in this context. We are
all self-absorbed to some extent and it's good to maintain a practice that
keeps this at bay.

I found these two things particularly helpful:

1) Developing a practice of meditation

This helps to notice the self-absorbed thoughts and recognize them for what
they are. I'd recommend in particular attending a silent retreat in Vipassana
tradition [https://www.dhamma.org/](https://www.dhamma.org/)

These retreats are organized all over the world and are donation-based, so you
can afford them regardless of your financial means. It only takes time and
dedication.

2) Developing interest in other people

I was surprised that this can be learned, but it certainly can. I've often
heard things like "assume everybody knows something you don't know" or
"everybody can teach you something". I've found this advice to not be
particularly helpful. It didn't offer a process for developing this interest.

The advice here offers a more practical approach: [https://www.quora.com/How-
do-I-become-genuinely-interested-i...](https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-become-
genuinely-interested-in-other-people) (tdlr; it's an exercise of writing down
things that you appreciated about the people you've encountered).

My personal experience with this practice: a) I notice what I appreciate and
find interesting about the person I am speaking to more frequently and sooner
into the conversation. b) I notice afterwards that I derived far more
satisfaction from conversations in which I was interested in the other person
rather than when others were interested in me. However, during the
conversation I still crave attention. I am starting to notice these cravings
as they happen. It's a little like eating a healthy meal vs. eating a cookie.

~~~
Japhy_Ryder
As for your (2), ...

Maitrī (Sanskrit; Pali: mettā) means benevolence,[1] loving-kindness,[2][3]
friendliness,[3][4] amity,[4] good will,[5] and active interest in others.[4]
It is the first of the four sublime states (Brahmaviharas) and one of the ten
pāramīs of the Theravāda school of Buddhism.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitr%C4%AB](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitr%C4%AB)

------
sjg007
There's a few psychotherapy podcasts with episodes on narcissism. It's rare
for malignant narcissists themselves to seek out therapy to help themselves so
most resources are organized with how to deal with the narcissists in your
life. But you should read them because if you can empathize with the other
side and reflect on yourself, that would bring down your narcissistic
tendencies. In general you should practice empathy, perspective taking and
develop genuine curiosity in other people.

A true narcissist is by definition someone who wouldn't care or think anything
is wrong or want to change, so you may have strong narcissist traits that you
can work at reducing them.

Narcissists are people who are addicted to or are dependent on feeling
special. See
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqV_QIvDeqA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqV_QIvDeqA)

Also the book, "Rethinking Narcissism" is probably worth reading.

~~~
hdivider
Can you name any of those psychotherapy podcasts? Would love to know.

~~~
sjg007
Therapist uncensored is good.
[https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/therapist-
uncensored-p...](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/therapist-uncensored-
podcast/id1146941306?i=1000452166542)

~~~
hdivider
Great, thanks!

------
pixelpoet
I don't think something like that is fixable; maybe another way of saying it
is, most basic animals are built like this by design - it's a feature, not a
bug. We evolved to become the biggest and strongest, and a very effective part
of that is "fake it until you make it"; be bold and have confidence!
Developing a more global and rational perspective is super expensive and our
ape brains already consumed way too much energy until we (just recently)
learnt to cook food to save our stomachs the digestive energy. (At the risk of
being [rightly] accused of scraping the bottom of the optimism barrel: I
actually think we're doing alright given the tools / monkeybrains to hand.
Unfortunately you see what happens with populist rule / mob mentality, but on
the other hand, Euler, Gauss, Newton, Riemann, von Neumann, Noether, Ramanujan
etc suggest that we apes can approach basically godhood with our normal
metabolic system.)

Transcending this self-centred existence requires logical and relative
consideration. It is ~certain that YOU, the very person reading this right
now, are not the smartest or strongest or richest or <any weighted success
metric you'd like to choose> in the world. So, as a vaguely smart functioning
person, you are aware of others who are better than you at various things, and
you need to intelligently deal with it.

In any case, we're all going to be a bit nacissistic until we join some kind
of posthuman Borg, probably in some Gaussian distribution about a mean same as
our heights.

~~~
hosh
Oh, it is very much fixable. A lot of what we think are animal instincts are
actually subject to a lot of influences and can be tweaked any number of ways.

~~~
pixelpoet
It's "fixable" at the surface level of course, and this is expected of anyone
in a basic functioning society.

In another thread about how it's legal in Germany to try to break out of jail
because it's human nature (literally this is the legal justification!), I made
the point that it's also sometimes human/animal instinct to murder, rape or
steal. We are expected to overcome these instincts in daily life, and so IMO
it should be no different in jail...

As "normal" humans we will always have these animal natures talking to us.
It's nothing to be "fixed", it's something to be accepted, understood and
managed. They called this being a Gentleman (for men) and being a Lady (for
women), given the values of the time.

~~~
hosh
No, I mean it is fixable at a deeper level, and not just through things like
behavioral conditioning. The techniques may not be wildly available or
accessible. To give you some examples --

\- Changes taking place with use of psychedelics, including traditional
shamanic methods

\- Use of acupuncture on something called the "extraordinary meridians".
Similarly, internal alchemy methods that messes with that

\- A phenomena called Kundalini (which describes a large spectrum of psycho-
spritual changes).

\- Breakthroughs from certain kinds of realizations on the nature of being,
such as those resulting from Zen or Vipassana

Animal instincts are just that. They are more like firmware. Difficult to
change if you don't know how, but very much possible if you are a hacker --
have the will, knowledge, and skill to do so.

------
Nasrudith
The good news is that you are more selfish than narcissistic. A selfish but
honest person would say "I do not't care about other people getting hurt until
it affected me." A narcissist says "It is all their fault that I got hurt and
they deserve their suffering!". Call mere selfish narcissistic and "true"
narcissism capital N narcissism if you like rather than fight a losing battle
as a pedant vs a colloquial tide but keep in mind the personality disorder is
a different animal in spite of resemblances.

As others advised empathy is likely a better area of focus. The approach there
varies from person to person and for a variety of reasons even unpacking the
types of "empathy" cobflated together. Higher functioning sociopaths are good
at reading people's emotions but don't necessarily care about them. A well
socialized one does the right thing for "wrong" reasons. Someone autistic may
not be in sync with sending or receiving emotions and signs but they will be
upset to learn they inadvertently hurt someone. Anyway that tangent aside from
someone on the spectrum here are some techniques.

I tend to try to "universalize" my perspective as a view from outside. It has
its own frustrations (knowing that even if you are right there is no way to
outright prove that will trust) admittedly and I am not an expert in human
interaction. My coping methods are more "sociological" than personal
interaction level. Pitfalls include probably not being very good for your
confidence - I say probably because of being uncertain what is preexisting and
sample size of 1.

------
slowdog
For book suggestions I would suggest the old classic: “How to Win Friends and
Influence People”

Talks about active listening, and remembering things about others.

As for generally not being as narcissistic, I think you’re already on the
right track. 90% of being aware of other people, is being aware that you’re
sucking up the airtime. Conversations are dances, both parties need to be
engaged

~~~
tortasaur
IMO it's really obvious when someone's applying the strategies in that book
without addressing their underlying behavior. One of my bosses had the dark
triad traits, and it was painfully obvious that he was following the book's
advice to the letter. Referring to people by name often and the like doesn't
mask narcissistic behavior, it just makes a narcissist appear dishonest.

~~~
pjmorris
I grew less distrustful of the book when I read in it that, in the author's
view, the key ingredient to its advice was sincerity. Carnegie even makes the
point that the advice is useful whether or not you are sincere, and calls out
its danger.

------
halfnormalform
Considering the core symptom involves thinking your own problems are either
nonexistent or caused by someone else, it makes sense why the shelves aren't
overflowing with self help book for narcissists.

Things that did not help: -Books about people who were affected by
narcissistic people. -All reddit groups about narcissism. -Writings of Vaknin
and other famous narcissists.

Things that did help: -Reinventing Your Life by Young (general audience).
-Schema Therapy by Young (professional audience). -Borderline, Narcissistic,
and Schizoid Adaptations by Greenberg (professional audience). -Learning how
to be aware when I'm splitting others or myself into black and white. (Much
harder than it sounds. It's like trying to stop time.) -Regular appointments
with a therapist. (Don't go expecting an 'atta boy'\--expect to be pushed
outside your comfort zone of false invulnerability and expect to resent your
therapist with every cell in your body while this is happening. If you find
them just giving you 'atta boys' you should get a different therapist). -Daily
exercise. -Cutting ties with family of origin.

~~~
weddpros
I'll second the recommendation for Schema Therapy, it's likely to help
understand yourself and others (don't forget others...)

------
chadcmulligan
I used to be narcissistic but now I'm perfect.

Are you sure - there's levels of narcissism, some is healthy. Someone with
full on Narcissistic Personality Disorder doesn't see a problem with it from
my readings and sees no need to change, and would never ask this question. As
@kstenerud a bit of empathy training could help, good on you for trying to
change. Listen to people, learn to see the good in everyone etc.

~~~
glormph
Not sure if you're being intentionally ironic about "not a narcissist but
perfect" :).

I'd echo the rest of your comment with my MD friend's "narcissists can't be
treated, they think there is no problem and pointing out what they are doing
only makes them think that their behaviour is actually good...".

------
scarecrowbob
IMO, you're looking at the wrong symptoms.

What you're describing is just being inconsiderate and I'd imagine that you're
probably young. Simply paying attention to those bad behaviors is a good start
on addressing them. Attempting to be kind, curious, and attentive is a strong
strategy. I mean, on some level, that behavior selfish and "narcissistic", but
it's not a personality disorder. IME it's not what people are talking about
when they are talking about "narcissism".

As to NPD...

You might look at how well you respond to criticism, and what kinds of
criticisms cause you to become upset.

The reason that you "couldn't find any book for people who are narcissistic
themselves and want to fix that" is that NPD is an issue where people have a
fragile sense of who they are so they develop a lot of strategies for not
having to encounter personal criticisms; by definition they aren't looking for
those kinds of books. Any suggestion that change is necessary is something
that feels harmful.

------
rendall
Get yourself diagnosed by a mental health professional if you don't just mean
"egotistical" or "self-absorbed". You might be able to fix egotism and self-
absorption. You won't be able to fix actual narcissism for yourself.

Good luck!

~~~
joelbluminator
That's a good point, but I don't OP is describing full blown narcissistic
personality disorder. He just has plain all full of himself disorder,
something that so many of us have (and it's probably getting worse).

------
andy_ppp
I’ve been listening to Fierce Intimacy by Terry Real and he calls what you
have grandiosity. He also says some people go the other way and feel shame and
inferiority. Both are on the same spectrum and both destroy interpersonal
relationships. Your self worth should be from a place of I’m worth the same as
tHe person next to me, not better or worse. He recommends taking a journal
about what your triggers are every time you start thinking others are worth
less or more than you. I have both which balances me out somewhat but I agree
with the author - feeling totally at peace with yourself and your place as
“good enough” will improve your life and relationships in a profound way.
Mostly your relationship with how you treat yourself, not needing the
aggrandisement will take a huge burden off you and lead to the things you
want. Acknowledging it’s become a problem is something people find incredibly
hard to do so I’d say you’re probably not as narcissistic as you think. Good
luck!

[https://www.audible.co.uk/pd?asin=B07FXXH91T&source_code=ASS...](https://www.audible.co.uk/pd?asin=B07FXXH91T&source_code=ASSORAP0511160006)

------
throwawayeueq
I would like to urge you to consider that maybe there is nothing to fix and
maybe people are actually not interesting around you. I realized that I had
the same"symptoms" as you did, but only sometimes. I started being worried
just like you, but then I looked closer into how I communicate and with whom.

There are people who have a very different life, which I deliberately choose
to avoid. Talking to these people diverges into talking about myself as there
is always something exciting happening somehow, and they do ask about it
(maybe out of politeness, but I'm a bad judge for that). These people sadly
form a majority of people around me.

However, there is a much smaller number of people who I can listen to for
hours and I genuinely care about what they have to say, so I ask a lot too.
These people are really excited about their lives and have stories to tell. In
my experience, not a lot of people have that. Also, they tend to care about
things that I can say least imagine someone caring about.

So overall, maybe there is nothing to fix on your side here. At least, I
think, there is a possibility of this.

------
gao8a
For books I've always recommended in a broad scope of character building: How
to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie.

But that's just a book and its like just reading a book for programming. You
have to find a way to put it in practise.

I firmly believe that every society needs to embody some type of short term
service for youth to strip away the idea of individualism, and allow them to
rebuild only after experiencing working and helping out others. Doesn't need
to be the armed forces, just something to hammer into them that you need to
work together and look after buddy.

For me I think joining the reserves at a young age (16) cured me of a lot of
selfishness. That might be unrealistic to you but sports teams, volunteer
groups (Rotary, Lions Club, heck even Toastmasters) help garner this dynamic.

Have you lived in a small community before? You might think you don't like
people, but you might realize you don't like people in big
cities/companies/stressful environments.

All the best

------
guymcgwire
Honestly, having kids fixed my personality in a thousand significant ways. I
was never a raging cerebral narcissist, but I had patterns of responses to
situations which were incredibly self-centered. My children didn't change my
perspective, that would be too convenient and easy. Having children just gave
me more outlets to be the caring, nurturing person that I wanted to be deep
down. I enjoy expressing my personality as a dad more than any other persona
I've ever tried on.

~~~
Zak
I'm glad that's working for you, but for anyone else reading, if you think you
have some sort of uncontrolled pathological narcissism, _please do not have
children_.

A majority of the people I know who have mental health issues as adult are in
that situation at least in part due to narcissistic abuse by their parents.
/r/raisedbynarcissists/ has over half a million subscribers for a reason. If
you want to have kids, get yourself straightened out psychologically first, or
set aside funding for the therapy they'll need ahead of time.

~~~
guymcgwire
"I'm glad that's working for you, but for anyone else reading, if you think
you have some sort of uncontrolled pathological narcissism, please do not have
children." Thank you. This is a wonderful, pitch-perfect example of the type
of insanely arrogant thing I would have posted in a forum before I had kids.

------
weinzierl
In Germany a book about narcissism[1] rose to popularity after there has been
a documentary[2] on national television in which the books author was featured
prominently. I cannot comment on the book because I haven't read it but the
documentary was interesting[2]. Unfortunately it seems to be available in
German only.

One funny thing for me was that the author runs a self-help group for
narcissists. On Facebook. I thought this must be as if the anonymous
alcoholics would meet at the local pub.

[1] [https://www.amazon.de/Ein-Narzisst-packt-aus-
gesellschaftlic...](https://www.amazon.de/Ein-Narzisst-packt-aus-
gesellschaftliche/dp/3828840434)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPUBuFqo9dU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPUBuFqo9dU)

~~~
sjg007
>a self-help group for narcissists

While this sounds like a comedy I would think that the group would dissolve
early since everyone would think everyone else is a loser. The best outcome
would be that the members would realize that everyone only talks about
themselves and nobody listens to them except to trump or talk over another's
story. That would be an interesting ah-hah moment.

You actually see this in real life in some kinds of support groups. There are
plenty of folks who had something tragic in their life but want to continue
reliving it b/c they have narcissistic traits. My wife says that she wants to
be in these groups because they are the only people who understand but all I
see are groups with a few narcissists. The groups continue usually because
there are enough empathetic folks involved to keep the narcissists
entertained. The only solution I see is for a strong group leader to force the
group to listen and try to practice empathy.

------
awillen
I don't know if I would say I'm a narcissist, but I have realized that I'm
very prone to interrupting people mid-conversation, because it's just what my
family does. When I'm with them (or other interrupters), it's totally normal
and not rude at all to interject when you have something to say and someone
takes a breath, but obviously it's problematic elsewhere. Doubly so when I'm
dealing with someone from the South or Midwest who tends to speak more slowly
with pauses.

I don't have any brilliant thoughts, I just focus very hard on not
interrupting. If I'm on a call, I'll jot down the things I want to say, which
helps, but in real life it's just constantly reminding myself that just
because someone is taking a breath doesn't mean I should start going.

------
AndrewDucker
It sounds like you've _had_ the epiphany.

The important thing now is to remember it, and apply it to your daily life.

This is much less fun, and much harder work. But basically, whenever you're
about to do something, ask yourself if you're doing it for the right reasons.

After a while you'll have internalised this to the point where you're not
having to correct course hardly at all, and it will be near-zero effort.

And then you can move on to the next thing ;-)

------
franze
As stupid as it sounds, yoga, surfing, working out and writting helped me.

Narcism is a defense, a self preservation strategy. I have it when I am not
feeling well. So I do things that make me feel good (yoga, surfing, workout).
As an introvert with narcistic tendencies it helps when I write my thoughts,
so I can shelf them instead of thinking the same things over and over again.

Oh yeah, a good therapist is also a fine thing.

------
bensonn
"All the books on Amazon are about other people, I want to read a book about
me."

That is not at all how you phrased it but in spirit of self-awareness and
improvement I reworded it as crass as possible to make the following point-
maybe books focused on people dealing with narcissistic people is a great
place to start.

*I have zero qualifications in mental health/psychology.

------
Ididntdothis
When I show this kind of behavior it’s usually because of a lack self
confidence or depression. My Buddhist teacher told me that depression is
literally a selfish thing because you are so busy worrying about yourself and
don’t have capacity to think about others or to be generous.

Besides seeking professional help I think it helps to review the day in the
evening and see if you did any of the behaviors you want to improve on. That
way you slowly develop awareness and can start catching yourself from time to
time when you do it. And be kind to yourself. Changing deeply ingrained
behaviors is very hard.

------
keanzu
In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder
(NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

    
    
      Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
      Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
      Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
      Requires excessive admiration
      Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
      Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
      Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
      Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
      Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
    

[https://psychcentral.com/disorders/narcissistic-
personality-...](https://psychcentral.com/disorders/narcissistic-personality-
disorder/)

Please refrain from self diagnosis.

Drinking alcohol doesn't make you an alcoholic. Talking about yourself "too
much" doesn't make you a narcissist.

~~~
bazeblackwood
Quite to the contrary, it's often said that alcoholism is a self-diagnosed
disease. Certainly combating it is much harder without that acknowledgement.
Likewise, I can't imagine a qualified psychologist or psychiatrist berating
someone in the same way you have for simply wondering if they have
manifestations of negative social behavior. Surely many people would miss out
on opportunities to reflect and change were they to take your advice.

------
janpot
If I had that feeling, I'd probably look for a professional to help me figure
out whether narcissism is a correct diagnosis, and if so, what would be the
right way for me to deal with it.

------
geff82
First, really cool that you are trying to work on you. I am sure that path
will lead you to something good.

Concerning your disinterest in people... approach everyone as if they were a
teacher. Not only contentwise, but in any regard. Even people at the bottom of
society can teach you something about their life by merely looking at them or
by exactly analyzing how they talk. See human interaction as a way to learn
and not primarily as some humility. Learning makes YOU better, which, in some
way, caters to a narcissist trait.

------
projektfu
Narcissism is a popular armchair diagnosis these days but you haven't really
listed anything that makes you abnormal. I don't know who you are but chances
are you're not really in need of treatment.

So, if you feel that there are areas where you just want to improve how you
interact with people, try ordinary coaching. You can learn how to become
interested in what other people do. You can develop habits that demonstrate
that you honestly care.

Find a good life coach, counselor or therapist :)

------
mettamage
There are other good tips here. The tip I'm about to give should be used
supplementary:

Buy Search Inside Yourself (it's a book about meditation written by an early
Google software engineer that invited scientific and Buddhist experts to help
him out).

Train your compassion by doing the exercises that lead up to Tonglen. Tonglen
itself might be too extreme, but he has a milder version of that, that I think
is a very good exercise.

I think it was something along the lines of: visualize someone's love flowing
into you, then feel that you're multiplying that love by 10 and then give it
_all_ back to the person you just got it from.

The second exercise is to look at random people (or known people) and wish
them the very best, but be specific about it, make it as personal and specific
as possible.

What these 2 exercises do is that they create habits, habits to think about
others. When you go about your daily life, you'll notice yourself doing this
automatically at a subconscious level at some point.

There's a reason I named my username after this.

Disclaimer: I'm a lazy meditator :( but it does work! And it did have lasting
changes.

------
Zaskoda
> I tend to talk too much about myself, I don't enjoy listening to other
> people, I tend to judge situations only from my perspective, I have an
> inflated ego and take things too personal.

Isn't that 95% of us?

~~~
adventured
If there were ten attributes that particularly define a narcissist (wide
disagreement on that, so I'm just using an example number), I think most
people would have four or five of them by default of humans by nature being
normally self-interested.

The narcissist will have a few more critically elevated attributes that are
missing or quite weak in your average person: lacking in empathy and caring
thoughts of others (narcissists feel like users when you're around them, they
use people as tools for how they can feed their narcissism); very aggressive
inability to recognize their own wrongs (they'll do everything to avoid this);
methodically blaming everyone/everything else for things that go wrong (goes
with the last one as a requirement); extreme and sharp turns against others in
cases of being blamed or having mistakes & flaws pointed out (even casually;
this can't be tolerated, it opens up a personality collapse risk); often a
very elevated obsession with image, how they're perceived (often including
beauty, but not required); you'll usually see elevated levels of lying and
manipulation, often related to maintaining the other items such as image and
or getting what the person wants/needs to maintain the ecosystem of narcissism
(it's a whole system that has all sorts of requirements, each of which cause
other consequences); they will believe they're very, very special, with
typically little in the way of supporting life results to back that up (it's
an inherent impossibility, as the inflation of image is always far beyond the
results, no matter what the results are; and they will have excuses to cover
the lack of obvious supporting results, calling themselves lazy for example,
for why they've accomplished nothing, while simultaneously proclaiming they
could conquer the world if they wanted to).

Maintaining narcissism is its own form of hell for most narcissists. It's a
never-ending treadmill of lies, deception, abuse, losing friends, self-
torture, unhappiness. They will often not understand why they're so miserable,
they offload that on others via blame as well.

True narcissism almost feels like dealing with a sociopath when you're near
it. Like you're dealing with a robot or alien.

------
yters
Religion could help you here, especially Christianity, since a fundamental
insight is, as GK Chesterton puts it: "What's wrong with the world? I am."

Without realizing there is something fundamentally wrong with me, i.e. the
narcissism aka pride, it is impossible to break free. This is the insight that
allowed Dante to leave Hell in the Divine Comedy.

~~~
btilly
Oh yes.

Believe in this thing that you don't believe in so that you can become a
better person. Except that believing for that reason is simply telling
yourself a lie. And professing faith based on a lie will make you a worse
person. And yet this type of argument is often used by those who seek to
spread the Gospel.

See likewise Pascal's Wager.

That said, there is no evidence that I am aware of for Christianity actually
making people into better people. I have seen a number of attempts to prove it
(for example to support faith based programs in jails), but when the same data
was analyzed using normal statistical methodologies (for example not excluding
people who left the program because of problems), the evidence disappeared.

~~~
yters
See the western civilization you live. Largely the product of Christianity.

OP can look into Christianity to see if they find it plausible. I am
suggesting it is a good place to look, as the premise of Christianity is there
is a greater reality than the self.

~~~
btilly
My understanding of the history is that Christianity took a free ride on a
freight train caused by other things that in turn were not helped by
Christianity. For example the early history of science shows that science took
off exactly where and when conflict between different Christian sects left no
religious authority with sufficient power to stop people from exploring
dangerous ideas.

And to the tired old argument that our society's cultural values are founded
in Christianity, they are not. As a demonstration compare the many, many
comments from Jesus against acquiring material wealth with how deeply
established Capitalism is in our society. (Mark 10:25 on how hard it is for
rich men to get into heaven comes to mind. Note that virtually all Americans
are rich by world standards.) Our society, like all others that I know of,
cherrypicks from religious texts to find support for what it wants to believe
is true, rather than following those texts to the conclusions that are clearly
there. (Whether those conclusions are good is a different story.)

In fact most of our most cherished cultural values either predate Christianity
(eg the Golden Rule) or postdate the Enlightenment (eg our rejection of
slavery). It is hard to point to many that clearly were introduced by the
Bible and have become adopted. (Note, just because it is in the Bible does not
mean that it was introduced there. Again, see the Golden Rule as an example.)

~~~
yters
Those are certainly interesting claims!

There are a number of arguments that science came about in western culture
because of Christian belief in an intelligible and orderly creator, at odds
with the other philosophies of that time (and arguably our own).

I've also heard that the original invention of capitalism came about within
the monastic university system that generated our modern university. Jesus
does disparage seeking after material wealth, and the early church held all
possessions in common to help the needy among them. But, he also tells the
parable of the talents, which encourages people to make the most of what they
have, and the one guy who doesn't is punished. So, I would say Jesus is anti-
greed, not anti-capitalism. The apostle Paul goes onto say those who don't
work should not eat, and that hardworking pastors should be financially
rewarded.

Jesus' golden rule is part of the beatitudes, which I understand to be unique
among moral teachings. Foundational is the idea that all humans are created in
the image of God, and should be loved accordingly. My understanding is chattel
slavery came about after the enlightenment, perhaps due to the elimination of
belief that all humans are created in the image of God. Instead we have the
Darwinian view that humans form a continuum with animals, and thus implying
humans can be treated like animals.

I do believe the relationship between Christianity and western culture is more
than you propose. If you want some interesting secular books to read on the
topic, check out anything by Rodney Stark.

~~~
btilly
_Those are certainly interesting claims!_

I believe that they are true ones.

 _There are a number of arguments that science came about in western culture
because of Christian belief in an intelligible and orderly creator, at odds
with the other philosophies of that time (and arguably our own)._

I have read _Meditations_ by Marcus Aurelius. It is obvious that the idea of
an intelligible and orderly creator is very much part of the pagan tradition
that he is from, which predates and is not of Christian origin.

Furthermore the intellectual roots of empirical science are in ancient Greece.
And when it flourished again starting in the 1600s, religious communities
(famously including what happened to Galileo) suppressed the dangerous new
line of inquiry. Christianity does not seem to have been of assistance.

 _I 've also heard that the original invention of capitalism came about within
the monastic university system that generated our modern university._

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism#Origins_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism#Origins_of_capitalism)
lists many theories about the origin of capitalism. The idea that it was
invented in monastaries is notably absent.

 _Jesus does disparage seeking after material wealth, and the early church
held all possessions in common to help the needy among them. But, he also
tells the parable of the talents, which encourages people to make the most of
what they have, and the one guy who doesn 't is punished. So, I would say
Jesus is anti-greed, not anti-capitalism. The apostle Paul goes onto say those
who don't work should not eat, and that hardworking pastors should be
financially rewarded._

And are these attitudes part of our culture?

 _Jesus ' golden rule is part of the beatitudes, which I understand to be
unique among moral teachings. Foundational is the idea that all humans are
created in the image of God, and should be loved accordingly. My understanding
is chattel slavery came about after the enlightenment, perhaps due to the
elimination of belief that all humans are created in the image of God. Instead
we have the Darwinian view that humans form a continuum with animals, and thus
implying humans can be treated like animals._

If that is your understanding, then you truly do not know the history. Chattel
slavery existed from ancient times. Tying chattel slavery to race was
religiously justified by the claim that blacks were descended from Caine and
therefore cursed and inferior. The development of the Darwinian view of
evolution happened in the same general time frame as the ABOLISHMENT of
slavery, not its increase.

Compare. England abolished most slavery in 1833. The Origin of the Species was
written in 1859. Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was 1863. Its
actual adoption took place not many years after.

The view that humans form a continuum with animals coincided with a more
humane treatment of humans, not less.

An amusing legal note supports this. Read the case of
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Ellen_Wilson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Ellen_Wilson)
to find that the principle that we should not let children be too badly
mistreated by their parents was first enforced in the USA using laws that were
intended to prevent undue cruelty to animals. This is a literal case where
treating humans as animals lead to humans being treated better!

 _I do believe the relationship between Christianity and western culture is
more than you propose. If you want some interesting secular books to read on
the topic, check out anything by Rodney Stark._

I have a counterproposal. Why don't you read
[https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1185/1185-h/1185-h.htm](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1185/1185-h/1185-h.htm)
instead?

And take seriously one of its opening points, namely, "The antagonism we thus
witness between Religion and Science is the continuation of a struggle that
commenced when Christianity began to attain political power. A divine
revelation must necessarily be intolerant of contradiction; it must repudiate
all improvement in itself, and view with disdain that arising from the
progressive intellectual development of man. But our opinions on every subject
are continually liable to modification, from the irresistible advance of human
knowledge."

~~~
yters
Looks like the conflict thesis and Draper's work have been discredited.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis)

~~~
btilly
So you ignore all the things that you were clearly wrong on to pick a
particular item you could criticize for. That doesn't sound exactly fair.

Furthermore your criticism is itself weak. You drew a parallel between what I
said and a discredited version of the history. Well fine. But that discredited
version of the history was not at all what I was saying.

What I was saying is that Christianity can't validly claim credit for the
progress of science, and that as science progresses there will inevitably come
to be conflicts with religion. A short list starts with the fact that the
Earth moves around the Sun, the fact that there never was a world flood, the
fact that the Earth is much older than the Bible accepts, and evolution. As
well as many more minor conflicts.

This is not to say that there aren't people of good will on both sides. It is
also not to say that religious people did not contribute to science. From
Isaac Newton on down, they did. However the relationship is one where science
continues to expand and eventually creates new conflicts with religious faith.

Also the early history of modern science is complicated by the fact that it
coincided with the Protestant Reformation. A period where people were killing
each other in large numbers over what should have been minor disagreements on
faith. (As an example in the 30 years war, something like 1/3 of people living
in what is today Germany got killed.) In this atmosphere it was very, very
easy for what should be innocuous intellectual inquiry to draw the ire of
local religious leaders. And it was also easy for people to self-censor if
they got scared. This was not a permanent state of things, but it was a real
problem in the 1600s.

~~~
yters
To support your view your cite Draper's book, which proposes the conflict view
of science and religion. Both Draper's book and the conflict view are
discredited.

I, on the other hand, refer to Stark's work, which is state of the art as far
as I know.

Most of modern science was founded by religious people. This seems very odd if
there is an intrinsic conflict between religion and science.

To avoid a lot of back and forth, what credible modern scholar can you cite to
back up your point of view?

------
mundo
Well known narcissism-obsessed psychiatry blogger "The Last Psychiatrist" has
discussed this a lot, most relevantly in
[https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2009/01/can_narcissism_be_cu...](https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2009/01/can_narcissism_be_cured.html)
and
[https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/02/the_other_ego_epidem...](https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/02/the_other_ego_epidemic.html).

Here's (his version of) the tl;dr answer:

> "Help me, please, I think I'm a narcissist. What do I do?"

> There are a hundred correct answers, yet all of them useless, all of them
> will fail precisely because you want to hear them.

> There's only one that's universally effective, I've said it before and no
> one liked it. This is step 1: fake it.

> You'll say: but this isn't a treatment, this doesn't make a real change in
> me, this isn't going to make me less of a narcissist if I'm faking!

> All of those answers are the narcissism talking. All of those answers miss
> the point: your treatment isn't for you, it's for everyone else.

> If you do not understand this, repeat step 1.

------
kespindler
"Laws of Human Nature" by Robert Greene (ironically, also the author of 48
laws of power, which is often criticized for advocating machiavellianism) is
an extremely powerful book.

It has two chapters that are especially relevant for you: "Chapter 2:
Transform self-love into empathy: The law of narcissism", which might be self-
evident in its value from the title, and "Chapter 4: Determine the strength of
people's character: The law of compulsive behavior", which discusses toxic
personality types, how to avoid them, and what to do in case you notice those
patterns in your own behavior. I think you'll find both of those chapters
extremely illuminating.

The whole book is worth checking out too. And a relationship with a good
executive coach or therapist works wonders too!

------
marcuswebb
Lots & LOTS of reading. LOTS of writing (look up journaling CBT). Distancing
myself form people who actively engage in those behaviors & enable me to do
so. Distance myself from social media (I haven't posted a selfie or personal
life update in six months).

Focus on people close to you that engage you on an intellectually or
emotionally inspiring way. Find projects that bring you joy (or at least pass
the time fairly well).

Make jokes about yourself, to yourself. Take moments to pause & internally
acknowledge when you feel you've done something you regret. Force yourself to
apologize if it is necessary (but be wary that you may be trying to apologize
to facilitate someone else coddling you: ask yourself if your apologizing
improves THEIR life, not if it will assuage your guilt).

Good luck!

------
agumonkey
That's indeed true. A massive amount of writings (noise) are about victims.
And rarely good at explaining how to evolve if you are on the other side of
things.

As a semi narcissist, I have two things to say:

\- you are your nature, take a deep look into it, try to balance it to avoid
damaging pitfalls for you and others; after that let yourself be. Trying to
distort yourself can be ultra-damaging.

\- depending on the case (and you seem, if at all, a soft one since you
publicly admit questionning and willing to change) even a deep bred narcissist
can change and love other deeply, but beware, love is an emotional exchange
and when your brain start to live on mutual affection, you're now subject to
the pain that goes with it when bonds fail. Another ultra-damaging scenario.

Best of luck

------
dsego
Introspection is the most important first step. You can get a psychological
evaluation to determine if you actually have a clinical disorder or you are
high on the narcissistic spectrum.

In the meantime, do you recognize yourself in any of the listed traits on the
following website? [https://outofthefog.website/personality-
disorders-1/2015/12/...](https://outofthefog.website/personality-
disorders-1/2015/12/6/narcissistic-personality-disorder-npd)

I found it enlightening to learn about the term 'narcissistic supply' (search
for Sam Vaknin, he has a website and a youtube channel).

------
simonsarris
I wouldn't use the word narcissism to describe this. I'm worried about
suggesting too many things, so maybe just consider these two:

1\. Your traits and actions, both good and bad, what are they? Can you
describe them, in other words, can you describe yourself through them? Try to
do it, and do not use the word "am." Try to write down as many as you can.

(In other words, never "I am a fisherman", only "I fish.")

2\. Spend time trying to consciously improve other peoples lives. Work through
the barriers you have to doing this and your life will improve, too.

Practice these. If it's not immediately obvious why both of these are
necessary, give it time.

------
lioeters
It seems to me that life in most forms are self-centered by nature and
necessity, and it takes conscious effort to develop empathy for others.

Human society might be the worst (and best perhaps!) in terms of sacrificing
the whole world to glorify the self, or vice versa.

Motherhood (or parenthood) is a clear exception, dedicating oneself for
another - but it could be argued that is also in "self" interest, a larger
sense of self over generations.

Altruism might be the antidote to narcissism. Paying attention and caring for
others as one would for the self. I think it's also about having a larger
sense of self, encompassing the whole of creation.

------
audiometry
It might not be full-blown psychiatry-diagnosed narcissism. It just might be
inflamed ego. I really resonated with a book called Ego Is the Enemy. It's
fast to read, and I've read it a couple times. It's improved my vigilance
against my own ego gaining too much control over me.

I'm certainly not ego-less, but I definitely improved my happiness
significantly by making an attempt to weaken the impact of my own ego.

Also, understanding how ego tries to work is a great reference frame for
interpreting my own and others' behaviors. That's first step to dealing
smartly with them.

------
Solomoriah
This question seems like a trap... asking people who have overcome narcissism
to talk about how much better they are now. Wouldn't that be narcissistic?

With that said, I'll agree that talking to a mental health professional might
be the best thing, if you can afford it. Autistic spectrum disorder, for
example, sometimes looks like narcissism... if you can't sense other's
emotional states, it makes listening to them instead of talking about yourself
more difficult, mimicking narcissism. And I'm sure there are other diagnoses
that might also have the same effect.

~~~
crawfordcomeaux
Overcoming narcissism doesn't mean never talking about oneself. Thinking it
does may be a sign of black and white thinking.

------
k__
If you were a narcissist, you probably wouldn't notice or didn't want to fix
it. I think this is part of the definition.

But being egocentric is probably normal for some parts of the population.

I fixed this by only hanging out with people who interest me. So I would
genuinely hear what they have to say. This also led to most men disappearing
out of my life. Somehow I don't find men interesting.

Also, I started being an interesting person myself, so people would be
actually interested if I would speak about me. I mean, it one thing to bore
everyone around you, but if they want you to talk, why not do it?

------
joelbluminator
The biggest and most important step is realising you have a problem and
wanting to change. I was a bit like what you describe during high school and
late teens, but I saw it not only affects my personal relationships - it
doesn't align with my moral code. It's very hard to recognise narcissism in
yourself, but you have done it. I'm pretty sure from here the way to overcome
it is straightforward. And don't beat yourself up too much, everyone has a bit
of narcissism in them, you just have a bit too much. You will work through
this - I'm sure.

------
diegoperini
Finding a critical thinking best friend from the gender you are attracted to
really helps here. Not being offended to harsh criticism will be the hardest
part but it is definitely worth it. As you can imagine, this requires blind
trust towards that friend, which is fine. Such friends will be responsible for
your sanity check, especially if they are not afraid of telling you "Dude,
WTF?" when you are at your worst. Making yourself lovable to others (not
artificially) is a good motivator to accept the fact that you can love
yourself less and still survive.

------
asdfman123
Be careful about self-diagnosis. Everyone has narcissistic traits, and
everyone has personality glitches. You're probably not a narcissist because
you worry you are one -- actual narcissists just think they're great all the
time.

But yes, learning to be more considerate and focused on others is worthwhile.
The easiest and most immediate solution to what you're dealing with is to put
more energy into focusing on others -- approach conversations as an attempt to
understand where other people are coming from.

Just that simple fix will make you less focused on yourself.

------
MisterTea
In a Taekwondo dojang I used to attend, the instructor had a sign on the wall
that listed four rules one of which was to accept humility, the opposite of
narcissism. And that is what you need to learn, accept humility. Perhaps join
a martial art gym and get your butt kicked a few times.

I also did some boxing and it was incredibly intimidating stepping into the
ring with some seriously scary dudes who knocked me around like a rag doll.
But you take the lumps and learn from them. I took a lighthearted approach
when boxing. Most of the dudes going there really wanted to be prize fight
winning boxers whereas I wanted the exercise and fighting experience. So I'd
spar with some welterweights and do my own commentary as I had my ass kicked.
"And Ramirez comes in with a quick right... _thwomp_... followed by a jab...
_thunk_..." I had fun. I didn't get mad, upset or take it personally. After a
while I got better and could land shots as my focus and speed improved. Then
the gym closed and I didn't bother to go somewhere else.

And I practice similar at work. I've learned to point out and laugh at my
mistakes to coworkers which eases the frustration. I accept that I'm not
perfect yet I have confidence in my skills and I always tell myself there is
more to learn. Bragging is just hot air. Brag through your work. And I have
had a lot of excellent compliments through my career and that keeps me being
the best person I can.

------
timka
First and most important learn to be sincerely grateful for this experience to
yourself and the others that make it possible.

This is difficult for at least 2 reasons. First, many (most?) are familiar
with gratitude only as a concept but not that much as a feeling. Second, your
attention is focused on frustration caused by your awareness of your
narcissism as it makes you suffer.

In order to get that genuine feeling of gratitude the focus on your suffering
must be dismissed first. Once you caught yourself in this state, notice what
your body feels. Pay attention to your eyes, tongue and throat. Relax these
while exhaling. You may notice that slight tension behind your forehead caused
by keeping focused goes away. Now you're unfocused.

Next, it is necessary to train yourself to be grateful in such situations. As
you're suffering from narcissism that is a form of attachment, sort of greed
in other words, which naturally blocks gratitude, this will most likely
require some effort. Finding your personal trigger for that may be a good way.
For instance, some situation in the past where you were truly grateful to
someone or something. Once you find that you got the antidote.

This way you may learn that your narcissism isn't something that needs to be
fixed but rather your way to learn something about the world and yourself. And
maybe it's not even narcissism anymore? It just needs some gratitude. And
maybe someday it will be exhausted as there's nothing more to learn, but that
won't matter anymore. I personally haven't gone that far yet with mine :)

------
dkarl
Narcissism can be driven by a lot of factors, so it depends on why you are
narcissistic.

If you feel that your life is not going right, that you aren't taking care of
yourself and your responsibilities properly, this can drive you to focus your
attention on yourself and be less curious about others.

If you feel that other people do not care about you, that you are entirely on
your own, this can drive you to focus on yourself and be less curious about
others.

Of course ideally you would use a temporary state of self-focus to put
yourself back on a positive track and achieve a greater level of security that
then allows you to broaden your concern to embrace others. If you do that, you
are not a narcissist; you just took some time to get yourself straight. You
put on your own oxygen mask before helping others.

If, on the other hand, you get stuck in the mode of focusing exclusively on
yourself, without making progress on the factors that drive your self-focus,
possibly even making the negative factors worse and making your isolation
self-reinforcing, then it becomes pathological. You might need therapy to help
you focus more on others and solve the underlying problems another way.

The issues driving your narcissism might be different, but no matter what they
are, I recommend a double-pronged approach: actively practice caring for
others in defiance of whatever dynamic is causing your narcissism, and at the
same time investigate the underlying problems in psychotherapy, because the
better you address those issues, the less unnatural it will feel to care for
others.

------
anonsivalley652
IANAD/P.

It seems like narcissism requires the subject to be unaware of their self-
absorption and/or antisocially putting their needs always above those of
others, especially with a lack of guilt and/or remorse. Furthermore, there is
an opposite extreme: considering the needs of others always above self, e.g.,
giving everything away and not taking care of oneself before taking care of
others.

Perhaps there are several general potential sources of dysfunction in this
realm:

0\. Mood/physiological disorders like depression and anxiety, which can be
managed and occasionally cured.

1\. Personality disorders including clinically-relevant psychopathy which
cannot be cured but only managed and coped-with.

2\. A desire to seek-out victimhood or conditions by self-diagnosing symptoms
that don't rise to the level of clinical/life impairment.

3\. Realization (or lack thereof) that there is almost always a non-zero sum
game to life, e.g., living is predicated on, and necessitates, hoarding scarce
energy and resources.

I don't think it's a good idea to self-diagnose or offer unsolicited advice on
the internet to others. Ask a professional in the real world who is a) not you
and b) has a more objective/dispassionate perspective. Also, there are many
existential questions and dilemmas that are good to ponder, but ultimately
have few perfect answers or resolvable conclusions.

------
hinkley
Stress, especially without robust coping mechanisms, can make you withdrawn.

That can show up as lack of empathy and selfishness. You can be selfish and
not be a narcissist.

The oxygen mask rule applies here. You can’t take care of anyone else while
you’re floundering. Counterintuively, making a conscious effort to take care
of yourself may free up energy for helping others. Right now you might be
choosing you by default. And since it’s undirected, the costs are higher and
the benefits lower.

------
blinotz
My former partner behaved in narcisstic ways from time to time.

I didn’t even know what narcissism was until after we broke up after 8 years.

But dealing with narcissistic behavior was absolutely awful. It left me
mystified about all sorts of things to do with us, as well as hurt and feeling
abused.

She’d never ever acknowledge her narcissistic behavior so even recognizing it
puts you in the right path to addressing it.

And for those people who suspect they have close relationships with
narcissistic behavior, run if you can.

~~~
darrelld
Yup, same. Was in a 10 year relationship with a narc. Took about 4 years after
to figure out what happened. It felt like walking out of a thick fog.

Most of the advice in this thread to cure narcissism is completely useless.
People are posting things like go to church, join a group, have a family, etc,
but they don't understand the truth that narcissists are truly broken people
on the inside incapable of any type of self-reflection.

OP likely isn't a narc because narcs can't see anything wrong with any of
their behavior. Everyone in their life could tell them that their behavior is
toxic and they will spin it in their heads that they are the victim.

> And for those people who suspect they have close relationships with
> narcissistic behavior, run if you can.

Best piece of advice in the entire thread.

------
randycupertino
What helped me the most was reading the book "How to Win Friends and Influence
People" and following the instructions. It's cheesy, it's old school, it's a
classic, it's outdated but darn it the (outdated) advice in that book really
does work, and it really did help me turn my personality around and even
improved my outlook on life/humanity. I didn't really take an interest in
others that much beforehand, but once I started being more extroverted and
chatting with others, more people became my friend and I feel more engrossed
in my community- I even know my bank teller and sandwich guys names now and
realized I'm downright cheerful at times. I take more of an interest in others
and keep getting promoted at work due to what seems solely on my
personality... I mean, my quality of work is good, too. For example, a recent
award I won cited, "your positive energy is contagious and especially welcome
tackling tough projects."

But yeah... that book brought me from a depressed cynic to someone who takes
an interest in others and basically the whole world is my friend- even people
I haven't met yet, they are just friends I don't know yet.

------
riskneutral
Learn about and practice meditation. There are scientific studies proving that
the practice increases empathy. Narcissism is also related to a low level of
empathy.

------
yizhang7210
I ran into a couple people who are just hands down better than me in every
aspect that I can think of. And that made me realize that I'm just a normal
person.

------
Mikhail_Edoshin
The narcissistic dynamics is a bit different: a narcissist pretends he is
perfect and everything that is wrong is in or caused by the outside world and
other people. (Deep down he is not sure of that, but is terrified to even
consider that it might be possible to think to have a real look.) Now, if
you're not satisfied with yourself this is very non-narcissistic. Selfish
and/or autistic perhaps, but it's different. (Plus, all these are words that
try to delineate rather vague concepts anyway; it's not that important to find
the "right" label here, it would actually obscure the real picture.)

I cannot suggest a specific approach, but I'd recommend to trust your guts on
this and watch out for serendipity moments. Like picking a book that "looks at
you" even if it is doesn't fit your idea of how it must be done (e.g. picking
a religious book if you're not religious). Or bypassing a book store and going
to a dance studio instead. I'd say it's not that common to want to change
yourself like this and if you have come to this, then you have something in
you that might guide you.

------
Rury
Frankly, I've thought a lot about narcissism and I'm beginning to think it's a
bit nonsensical, as in some ways I think it can be used as a term to demonize
others to justify the cognitive dissonance of treating them poorly. Similar to
any kind of generalization... you assign a label to dehumanize them.

For example, some commonly associated traits ascribed to narcissism are a
desire of power, status, or admiration from others; the the self-perception of
being unique, and _a lack of empathy_ for others. Now why would someone
psychologically end up fixated on these traits? Well perhaps, they've been
treated poorly and are dejected from others. They are on the receiving end of
lack of empathy, are downtrodden, and abused. If they had power, status,
admiration, or generally were treated well they wouldn't feel like their ego's
were so fragile. So they exaggerate their importance to try to gain what
they're lacking, and lash out if they feel they are wronged.

So, to me, people with these traits seem to be concerned about what others
think of them. Sure the "them", at the end of that last sentence makes it seem
they're being self-centered. But read it again; the words "concerned about
others" co-exist in that sentence - words that describe altruism. Why would
someone be concerned with their appearance? Perhaps they've been treated
poorly by others... and are worried they're unacceptable to society... So they
focus on themselves.

I'd say don't worry about it much, it's easy to beat yourself up. I know
that's not much help, but for me thinking this way helps me realize I'm not
perfect nor no-one is and that there are many grey areas in life that are
subjective. In all, you might not actually be narcissistic...

~~~
Rastonbury
Yeah its a vicious cycle, many people how have encountered a narcissist can
spot another one easily. If experienced, usually they will seek to distance
themselves from that person. Usually the discussion goes something like: "oh
he's the kind of person to do x" or "she's said y can you believe it? why are
people like that?"

The person has little clue they are pretty different and wonder why it is so
hard to make friends or get close to anyone. An acquaintance of mine once
lamented about how she never was able to keep close friends for more than 2
years, I kinda knew why but I wasn't in the position to tell her how
selfish/narcissistic she can be.

The thing is, people who avoid narcissists, have their justifications for
doing so, no one wants to be in a one sided friendship/relationship. They
aren't making excuses to treat them poorly because they don't like that
person, they've seen the person take and be selfish without giving and it
drains them and they distance themselves as a result.

------
tomhoward
There are various forms of subconscious emotional healing work that can vastly
improve the way you interact with others, as well as your own emotional
balance and self-regard.

I've been undertaking this kind of work for about 7-8 years and counting.

Some examples are Holotropic Breathwork, Ericksonian Hypnosis, and
kinesiology-based practices like Psych-K.

There are many, and it's worth trying different ones until you find one that
you connect with.

------
cubicmeter
You are already making progress or you are not a narcissist after all.
Narcissists never accept that they are narcissists or come to that
realization.

~~~
sjg007
Actually most narcissists will tell you they are a narcissist. The thing they
won't do is do anything about it.

[https://www.livescience.com/47197-narcissists-admit-to-
it.ht...](https://www.livescience.com/47197-narcissists-admit-to-it.html)

------
ryanackley
Here is the thing, you shouldn't feel guilty about feeling this way and rush
out to see a therapist. This epiphany is part of the natural cycle of
emotional maturity.

Now it's just a matter of applying thought to action. For example, make an
effort to listen to and understand other people. It get's easier because it
will lead to more meaningful relationships. It becomes a positive feedback
loop.

~~~
woodrowbarlow
agreed that one shouldn't feel guilty but one can still seek out a therapist
if one would like guidance and support in "applying thought to action".

------
adityathakkar
I'm not entirely convinced narcissism is something that has to be fixed.

There are some aspects to it that are of course destructive as you mentioned
(not enjoying listening to other people, and taking things to personally).
Fixing these things I think comes down to enjoying the people you spend time
with, and a radical belief that things will work out no matter what happens.

But there are other aspects of narcissism that really lend themselves well to
success. Overconfidence/inflated egos are some of the only ways that you can
take on really big challenges ahead of you. (See Sam Altman's blog post on
this - [https://blog.samaltman.com/how-to-be-
successful](https://blog.samaltman.com/how-to-be-successful), and PG's tweet -
[https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1217724728644861953](https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1217724728644861953))

I'd love to hear what other people think :)

~~~
zozbot234
> I'm not entirely convinced narcissism is something that has to be fixed.

You sound kinda like a narcissist. And the problem with overconfidence/big ego
is that it doesn't help you choose the _best_ big challenges to tackle. Having
some humility and keeping things in perspective makes you all the more aware
of what your _real_ strengths are, and how to best leverage them.

~~~
adityathakkar
Yeah for sure - judgement is imperative, but also independent of confidence.
Combining that with the courage and self-belief to try big things is a great
combination.

Humility is also incredibly important because most things of value are done by
teams, and humility is incredibly important to working in a team. But again,
humility and an ego can coexist and will serve you well.

> You sound kinda like a narcissist.

Whether I am or not doesn't matter - my comments on the matter stem from the
fact that I believe most people air on the side of under-confidence regarding
what they can accomplish.

------
8jef
You could read "Conversation with God" by Neale Donald Walsch. This book had a
profound disrupting effect, bringing up the best of me. Especially since this
is not about religion or moral values. Cool fact: served as an inspirational
base for The Matrix movie (first one mainly), and many other contemporary
works. No source on that, I just know it.

------
unnouinceput
Get kids. Or do voluntary work at your local orphanage if you're not ready to
have your own. That will cure your arrogance, your narcissism and your self-
importance way faster then any book, video or shrink/therapist you might wanna
read/see. The fact that your actions have a direct consequence on another life
is an eye opener.

------
malloryerik
Reading fiction might help, well, _certain_ fiction. My first thoughts are to
Tolstoy's _War and Peace_. It seems like it would be hard to come out of a
sincere reading of this book and still be entirely self-centered.

If not _War and Peace_ I'd avoid genre fiction here and go for literary greats
with real depth honestly trying to plumb the human experience. You'll
understand why I'd tend to suggest books in the third person with multiple
protagonists, full and round characters.

By the way if you choose _War and Peace,_ avoid the Pevear and Volokhonsky
translation (wooden) and choose instead either Briggs (more modern and
flexible) or the Maude translation (precision at the risk of being overly-
grammatical).

An interesting point about Tolstoy is that all of his characters are unique,
even the most minor ones, and at the same time they are all branched in to
human, cultural and historical experience and moment.

------
jodrellblank
The Last Psychiatrist says, paraphrased, "narcissists always come asking how
to fix themselves, what they can do to improve themselves, focusing on how
awful they are and how much better they want to be. They never come worried
about how much they are affecting or hurting other people, or what they can do
to help others".

------
mox001
Naturally, we tend to talk about whatever we happen to be paying attention to
or thinking about. So excessive talking about oneself is a symptom of
excessive thinking about oneself. Why would someone do that? I think that it’s
a logical consequence of having “getting people to like you” as your highest
value. If that’s the case it’s only natural to model other people’s view of
you in your own mind and try to make it as pleasing as possible. I think that
if you made a few important decisions that indicate to yourself that you have
some other guiding purpose in your life (it could be as simple as openly
disagreeing with someone about an issue you care about, or devoting your
attention to a project that interests you in and of itself). Paradoxically, I
think that MORE selfishness might be the answer (just like how attending to
your heart rate can sometimes serve to slow it down).

------
zoom6628
Humility is always a good characteristic in people but its something that in
order to be genuine it has to be learnt and practiced. My advice is go do some
volunteer work for people who are seriously under-privileged in some way,
especially ways you cannot fix. Sit with them, hear their stories, feel the
frustration you cannot do a damn thing to 'solve their problem', and just try
and 'be present' for them in that moment. Do it over a long period of time -
this is not a one-hit wonder - and regularly. Helping out in an old-folks
home, working with quadraplegics, UNHCR immigrants are all things available to
most of us close to home. Even helping at a pet shelter will help somewhat. Do
it for a year or two. The most important is to do it regularly and without ego
or opinion. And usually the only cost is your time and transport.

------
ebj73
I have at least one close relative that I believe qualifies as a narcissist.
My personal conclusion is that it's sort of a trait that you're born with. I
think it relates to a lacking ability to pick up on the subtle social cues
that other people send out. Most people can read those signals pretty well,
while others cannot. I think, if you cannot read the subtle signals that
people are sending out, and if you cannot intuitively pick up on how other
people feel, then neither can you respond or react to it in an adequate
manner. These are my thoughts after dealing with the said type of personality
for quite some years now.

If it's at all treatable, I'd suggest training yourself in picking up on the
subtler types of social cues and signals that other people send out. Like
Sheldon does in Big Bang Theory, even if that's a bit of a parody.

------
ineedasername
So here's the thing: if you're correct, or even if you're not and you've
simply picked up on personality traits you don't like, you've already shown
great progress in recognizing this and having the self awareness and
introspection to have this insight.

I don't have the silver bullet, but I imagine that fixing a good amount of it
can be done simply by maintaining this awareness and habitually thinking
outside of the instinctual responses you might have.

I'm not sure there's a quick fix to make you enjoy listening to other people,
but the rest is readily done by consciously seeking a wider perspective on any
given situation, keeping your own ego in perspective, etc. I know, much easier
said than done. But if you're looking for something more formal to help you on
your way, one possible option is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

------
artificialLimbs
Congratulations on realizing this! It really is a big deal to see it. Most
people don't even do this, they just live it out without even realizing. You
might check out the book which is considered the introductory text to the "4th
Way" work,"In Search of the Miraculous" by PD Ouspensky.

------
maerF0x0
Not real, clinical, narcicissim. But more like an understanding I can be a
real A-hole at times.

This: [https://fs.blog/2012/04/david-foster-wallace-this-is-
water/](https://fs.blog/2012/04/david-foster-wallace-this-is-water/)

------
BurningFrog
One easy experiment could be to stop talking about yourself.

Try it for a day.

> _I don 't enjoy listening to other people_

And why is that? Don't you like other people? If so, that's the problem to
fix!

Humans are the most fantastic things in existence. Getting to know them can be
very interesting, if you have a curious mindset.

------
SquishyPanda23
Do you mean narcissism in the sense of the personality disorder?

If so, the symptoms you describe could be due to a number of causes. For
example, they're also consistent with Asperger's.

You probably want to be very sure of the root issue before you go down a
rabbit hole of trying to fix things.

Neither narcissism nor Asperger's can be "fixed". That's why you can't find
any books about treating narcissism. You can manage the symptoms of
Asperger's, but I think narcissism is much more resistant.

Maybe take some online quizzes and then talk to a therapist. They don't have
to be an amazing therapist, but it makes sense to get some feedback from a
third party who has met many narcissists. They'll be able to tell you very
quickly if you fit the type.

------
throwawa66
There’s a guy on youtube, Sam Vankin. He is the author of Malignant Self Love:
Narcissism Revisited and has been studying this for a long time. He claims to
be or have been a narcisist himself due to some early childhood trauma. Look
him up, he claims he developed a therapy for this and he lives in eastern
europe, you can even pay him a visit if you’re interested in aleviating or
improving your condition. Whats worse about this condition is, that if left
untreated and despite any acomplishments you’ll have ever made you’d always be
deeply unhappy within, basically a shell of your true self and this will
probably spill in your life and around you and make a lot of victims: family,
friends, basically everyone around you.

------
gumby
I was lucky, I figured it out over time and before losing all my friends. In
my case I think I was not uniformly a jerk and it was my wife (who had no
patience for "jerk mode") who helped me see the problems.

I have another very good friend who in his mid 40s had to reboot his entire
set of relationships except for three of us; at one point he told me, "you
know, when everybody tells you you're an asshole, eventually you have to
consider the possibility that they may be right". His "recovery" has been
imperfect, for his own internal reasons, but the really good news is that not
everybody whom he drove away gave up on him.

------
hartem_
Understanding that being narcissistic doesn’t actually work really helps.
People (by and large) don’t respect you more or think any differently of you
as a result of you tooting your own horn and singing praises to yourself. In
fact, it has the opposite effect. Once you realize and internalize that the
large part of incentive of being narcissistic goes away.

What also helps is understanding the underlying reason that prompts you to be
narcissistic. There’s typically one or more insecurity that manifests itself
as a desire to seek for approval or look for praise. Once you figure out where
it’s coming from it suddenly becomes so much easier to deal with.

------
sarego
The characteristics you describe probably apply to way too many people than
you think. Even people who think they are otherwise.

For people really looking to go further than themselves there is no self-
improvement script but books that look at the condition of the self.Maybe
Seneca and Eastern Philosophy. The problem however is that just reading book/s
are not going to get us anywhere far. Applying them and thinking over them
helps. It doesn't however help 'improve' any of our day to day tasks, but
frees our mind. However I believe these have the first principles of the self
every person ought to know to get beyond the self.

------
PaulHoule
Read this

[https://www.amazon.com/Analysis-Self-Psychoanalytic-
Narcissi...](https://www.amazon.com/Analysis-Self-Psychoanalytic-Narcissistic-
Personality/dp/0226450120)

------
p0d
I'm not sure a true narcissist would ask this question. You should be
encouraged you are maturing and growing in the understanding that the world
does not revolve around you.

Keep listening to others and asking them questions and you will be good.

~~~
jodrellblank
I'm not seeing any concern for other people, or for a world outside OP, in
OP's post? It's totally self/inward-focused.

------
corey_moncure
Can someone provide a definition of "narcissism" as it's being used here? Is
there a list of core attributes or traits that comprise it? Etiology?

I've seen many discussions of this across the internet, and while there are
many people who seem to know what it is, or know people who are "narcissists"
or have a personality disorder, I've never seen it exhaustively described.
Most comments take a form like "A narcissist will/does/does not ...", or "my
narcissist dad/mom constantly ...", or "if you know a narcissist you must
...".

~~~
claudeganon
This is more or less the DSM definition:

[https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-
conditions/narcissistic-...](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-
conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662)

~~~
corey_moncure
Thank you!

------
timwaagh
I dont think its really a bad thing to think highly of yourself. I think a lot
of people agree given that trump managed to win an election. so its ok as long
as you understand your personality is polarizing and not everyone will like
it. If you tend to take things personally, thats often because they are, even
if you are not supposed to take it that way. You just have to learn to hide
your reaction sometimes because you cant always afford to get angry. You cant
change who you are. Those who petend otherwise are hopeless, so you just have
to accept it.

------
rotrux
To help develop your capacity for empathy (which is a skill you can work on) I
suggest actively envisioning situations from other peoples' perspectives.

For example, say you have some delicate news you need to deliver to a
coworker. Follow these steps: A) Close your eyes, B) construct the situation
in your head, C) take the role of your coworker, and D) imagine delivering the
news to yourself. It's impossible to do this 100% correctly because you are
not your coworker but you'll get more than you'd think from exercise.

This is especially true if you practice step C).

------
alfonsodev
Chances are that if you are a truly narcisitic (I would check with a therapist
before self-diagnosing a pathology) you might have a relationship with someone
co-dependent on you, either work, friend or sentimental relationship, you
could look into interpesonal conflicts, are you steping constanly into some
else boundaries, for your own benefit?

Search on youtube about this pattern there are a couple of pshychologist
talking about it.

If you are not hurting anyone, maybe your are not involed in co-dependet
pattern with anyone, and all you need it's some mindfulness and social skills.

------
chrisweekly
I'm wrapping up my first close reading -- and attempts to incorporate the
guidance of -- "7 Habits of Highly Effective People", and it's been a profound
experience. It outlines a linear progression of maturity (dependent ->
independent -> interdependent) and provides a framework for changing how you
relate to the rest of the world. It begins with deep examination of your
character and values. Your self-awareness ("I'm narcissistic") and desire to
change make me think you might benefit from 7H like I have.

------
wellpast
Try mediation and awareness practice. This may take you farther than explicit
overt efforts to "fix" yourself.

Primarily because part/s of the brain that "logically" identifies your
narcissism is likely the same part/s of the brain that exhibit the compulsive
behavior.

Through awareness practice you'll be strengthening the 'other' part/s of your
brain; I think this is the path to having more (behavioral) options in the
future. This will also strengthen your empathy, again something you seem to be
missing.

------
_Codemonkeyism
Reading the last psychatrist.

[https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/narcissism/](https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/narcissism/)

~~~
tartoran
Whats this? I see that it was last updated in 2014..

------
drinfinity
Why do you want to change? Regret anything?

I don't know the first thing about you, so it's hard to say what is going to
help. If you truly are a narcissist all bets are off, but perhaps you are just
a bit self-centered which might mean there is still hope after all.

I'd look for books on being a "building lasting relations", "how to deal with
emotions", "how to be a good mother/father". That kind of stuff. Bring out the
wounded inner child and see if some CPR is still an option.

------
pajaroide
2 years of psychoanalysis, tons of books. But for real, everyone can benefit
from psychoterapy, just be aware that there are a ton of different schools of
thought.

------
markk
Narcissistic behavior in general can be viewed as a defense mechanism to avoid
feeling the opposite...small and inadequate. Often we have shame from various
childhood experiences of feeling inadequate - failing in various ways in which
we felt others judged us for. Feeling humiliated and ashamed etc.

Imho, one great approach is to examine your past for such experiences. Then
sort of bring them to mind and reexamine the meaning we assigned at the time.

------
lr4444lr
Participate in an activity that you objectively suck at, or are at least
around a lot of other people who are relatively and objectively better than
you.

------
cdumler
As they say, the first step is recognizing that you have a problem. It's
wonderfully adult of you to consider it. The cool thing is that you're going
to find out that not only do you have this problem, you likely have more than
just these issues. Because you've opened up with yourself, you have the
awesome opportunity to be a lot better person.

Personally, I have issue with being myopic (focus to easily on a singular
task) and somewhat asperger/autistic (hard time recognizing emotional cues).
Like you, I've had trouble with interacting with people.

The first thing I can suggest is finding a few people with whom you can
confide your position, are supportive with wanting to see you be a better
person, and willing to give you guidance. THEN TRUST THEM when they say you've
done something not so well. If you're in a relationship, hopefully your SO
will be willing to help. At work, maybe your boss or colleague will be willing
to observe you and help you on your journey.

There are four stages of dealing with things:

    
    
      * unconscious incompetent - You have a problem and don't know you have one.
      * conscious incompetent - You recognize you have a problem, but don't know how to solve it.
      * unconscious competent - You make an effort and happen to do better, but you're uncertain what it was that made a difference.
      * conscious competent - You consistently do better because you know what to do in situations.
    

Notice that in the last one, I didn't say that you _understand_ why what you
did makes a difference. If you truly are a narcissist, it means that the
social aspects of your mind are weakly wired. I am that way, so even today I
have trouble recognizing cues. But, I'm honest with people about it. My
friends and colleagues know this about me. I tell them, "Just FYI, I have a
hard time picking up cues. Please, just be very direct with me because I
really want to help and see people are happy." My myopic natural can also be a
feature: I'm willing to dig down into problems and really understand why
something isn't working right. It doesn't bother me to laser focus on a
difficult problem. Long ago I was taught that every personality trait can be
positive or negative depending on how it is used. Learn how to be better and
use what you can do for better things.

Finally, find a _good_ therapist. A good one will be interested in you and
want to help you find out who you are and what you can be. A good one will ask
a questions of you, but they will be questions you likely have never asked
about yourself and should have answers.

You're on the right track.

~~~
tartoran
Just wanted to add something. Narcisists are not socially inept or weakly
wired. They like to be at the center of attention, that’s how the narcisistic
supply is obtained.

------
snarfy
Volunteer at an animal shelter for a couple hours a week. The cats at pet
stores always need volunteers.

Animals can't communicate so you are forced to empathize.

------
gwbas1c
Take a few minutes to skim the Wikikedia page summarizing "The No Asshole
Rule:"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_No_Asshole_Rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_No_Asshole_Rule)

You probably don't fit the author's definition of "certified asshole."

No one's perfect. Learn from your mistakes and grow into a wise old person.

------
igammarays
_What Life Should Mean To You_ by Alfred Adler. Originally published in 1931,
the book’s style of writing is refreshingly straightforward and lucid. Modern
publications changed the word “should” to “could” because apparently you
aren’t allowed to talk like that anymore. But it’s a transformative book on
narcissistic behaviour, a real foundation for psychology.

------
notduncansmith
I found Sam Vaknin’s work helpful for the most part, if a little overly dark
at times: [https://www.healthyplace.com/personality-
disorders/malignant...](https://www.healthyplace.com/personality-
disorders/malignant-self-love/narcissism-narcissistic-personality-disorder-
npd)

------
ConradKilroy
See recommended Reddit Thread:

r/RaisedbyNarcissists - "Help! I think I am a narcissist!"
[https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/1p1uag...](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/1p1uag/help_i_think_i_am_a_narcissist/)

------
yodsanklai
What's the scientific consensus on therapies. Are there any evidence that they
"work" If so, for what issues, and which therapy to choose?

I'm somewhat interest in therapies (not for narcissism, but more for issues of
self-confidence, anxiety), but I will not spend my time and money without
strong scientific evidence.

------
quercus
Don't fix it, own it. It's human to think the world revolves around you
because in your life it does. Try to change and you'll wind up like all these
fake people whose words project humility but whose actions show they only care
about themselves. I'm ok with it, I assume everyone thinks that way.

------
mrburton
I'm too good to have narcissism!

Honestly, I think the best way to deal with that is knowing you're not
prefect, you're not the opinions of others and you don't need to be the best.
You just need to be a better version of you. Learn to love yourself and this
all becomes a lot easier.

That's just my personal opinion.

------
alexashka
You might be giving yourself the wrong diagnosis.

If you're a great storyteller, talking too much wouldn't be a problem.

If you're gifted and spending all your time perfecting your craft, others will
notice your dedication and appreciate it.

If you're intelligent, having your own perspective is interesting and unique.

Do you notice the pattern? You have to be really, really good, at something
that brings yourself and other people, value. Lots of accomplished and beloved
individuals have had inflated egos and took things personally, just look at
Michael Jordan. The difference is, they achieved something.

You can achieve too, because just about everything people do can be vastly
improved upon. Find your niche, find what you can help society improve upon.
It'll take 10-15 years to get there, so if you want to, you better get going
:)

The magic pill everyone wants is 'how do other people like me more' or 'how do
I get them to act in ways that I prefer'. The solution is you rise so far
above, that they can't help but feel like 'holy shit' around you. That takes
10-15 years of dedicated work, unless you were born beautiful, in which case
this problem never arises :)

------
herodotus
Try this: go on a dating website, and say that you are looking for someone to
help you listen to and connect to other people. Maybe someone out there will
be willing to mentor you. Much more useful than reading is an actual face to
face critique by someone who is there to watch how you interact.

------
djschulz
Years of hardcore individual and group therapy in my 20s, 30s and 40s helped
to dispel any lofty perceptions I had of my self. It was very painful at the
time but necessary. I continue that program to this day with a loving wife who
calls me out on my shit as needed.

------
semanticjudo
Learning how to be truly empathetic to another person was transformational for
me. Studying meditation, mindfulness and generally seeking to truly understand
other humans with an open heart and mind has been a long, ongoing journey but
well worth the effort to date.

------
rconti
Learn something new.

Do things you're bad at.

Stick with it.

I've found that learning new things, being accepting and open about how little
I know, helps me turn down the ego a bit, and be more compassionate about
others being bad at things I'm good at. And to define myself less by my
abilities.

------
mixmastamyk
What you've described is normal human behavior that some of us are able to
outgrow thru practice. While therapy can be helpful to many it seems to miss
the mark here.

The books of Dale Carnegie are fun to read, can help develop better habits,
and are widely available.

------
bitL
Memento mori + try to like other people and view the world with their eyes,
try to have shared experiences together where you move yourself consciously
out of the center, experience they give you something you can't acquire on
your own.

------
prawn
Would hanging around more impressive/intimidating people help? Just guessing
they might have more interesting stories than you that help you take a
backseat more often? Whether they want to suffer your acquaintance is another
story!

------
29athrowaway
Assess your weaknesses. Ask other people about your weaknesses. Do not blame
others for your own weaknesses and mistakes.

Assess your strengths. Ask other people about your strengths. Do not take
credit for others' strengths and achievements.

------
firecall
An important question: How old are you?

If you are in your teens, 20s or 30s then I'd say don't get too upset about
being self focused. A lot of us are.

Having kids changes you too :-)

Not saying you should get old or have kids, but it's a factor :-)

Enjoy being you whilst you can :-)

------
thrwaway69
I think you should start donating some amount to helping others. Maybe that
might help combine with what others have said here, regarding seeing a
therapist, picking up a book. Try doing community service or volunteer work.

------
abfan1127
I'd check out "How to Win Friends and Influence People". Learning how to
genuinely take an interest in others can be a learned trait. You'll also make
mistakes, just be ok with your growth.

------
kstenerud
Look for empathy training. Usually, 80% of the problem is lack of empathy.

------
vorpalhex
Keep a journal, create a feedback loop that works for you (meditation,
running, whatever - try a few and keep what produces good output) and keep
aiming to conquer your ego.

"Ego is the enemy"

~~~
puredlx
I guess you are referring to the book from Ryan Holiday: "Ego is the Enemy".
Definitely a good read, highly recommend for the start.

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/1591847818/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/1591847818/)

------
toohotatopic
At its core, narcissism is a defence mechanism [1] against a state of mind of
which you are afraid.

To get over your narcissism, you can grow your emotional strength until you
are ready to face your biggest, unknown-to-you fear, until you are ready to be
in the state of mind that you avoid. Right now, your mind does everything to
hide that state of mind from your awareness.

There are plenty of ways to grow your emotional strength. Meditation, being
compassionate, express yourself e.g. with singing or dancing, ...

Trust yourself. Deep down you know what you have to do.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanism)

------
farooge
Faith born from the most the completely antagonistic, virulent form of atheism
you can imagine worked for me. Also, reading Ralph Waldo Emerson (the essays,
not poems) and SOLITUDE.

------
mguerville
Stoic philosophy, while not about narcissism per se, can help put things in
perspective because it forces humility and detachment. So book- wise:
meditations by Marcus Aurelius

------
runjake
Have a few kids. That’ll fix any sense of narcissism or self-centeredness real
quick.

I have near-zero time to dwell or introspect and that’s not really a bad
thing. Time is precious.

------
speed_spread
A single LSD trip will show your ego just how volatile it is.

------
parvenu74
Sam Vaknin is a self-confessed Narcissist and maybe psychopath. His oeuvre is
invaluable. He served time in an Israeli prison for financial crimes.

------
amriksohata
Know that you are not the body, understand that you will die sooner than you
think and therefore you are very minisucul in the grand scheme

------
anthk
Not giving a shit about near everything. I installed Slackware after lots of
years (since Debian Woody), but never stayed with it because I had no internet
at home.

I have no shit to being "hip" or updated, I installed Fluxbox/Rox and stopped
bragging over a setup and I just wanted to get my shit done.

I just did what I loved (learning to code TCL/TK and console/PC emulators in
6502 ASM) instead of accomplishing not my ego, but my distorted view of myself
as being enforced by the rest. It worked.

------
OscarTheGrinch
Keep telling yourself that you are a normal person, just like everyone else.
Don't judge others too harshly, we all have a tendency to see others misdeeds
as driven by character flaws, but they might just be having a bad day.
Meditate on mortality, it's great to be alive and healthy, this will not
always be the case.

For me this sort of thinking blunts both the highs and lows of existence, and
gives me more empathy for others.

Good luck with your possible narcissism, knowing (yourself) is half the
battle!

------
ayayecocojambo
sign up for brazillian jiu jutsu, that would teach you some humility. jokes
aside, getting a therapy would be the best option, if it is available for you.
"the problems" we observe may had roots and/or just an outcome of the root
problem that we have no idea of.

------
giardini
Don't you have any friends? That's what friends are for - to tell you when
you're steering the wrong way. Here, all by yourself, you are analyzing your
behavior and concluding that you're a narcissist, of all things. Maybe you're
a psychotic, a sociopath, an alcoholic, an obsessive-compulsive, a father-
raper or a mother-stabber or one other of the thousands of possibilities, but
you are making your own (likely unprofessional) diagnosis. Bad idea!

If you have no friends and don't have lots of spare change, then join a group
(any type of group, not group therapy): find others with common cause or
interest and work from there. Try a bunch: feel free to join and leave until
you find something comfortable.

If you have money to throw away, feel free to _hire_ a friend (a "therapist",
counselor or psychiatrist). There are plenty willing to take your money. As
one psychologist told me, his is a really easy profession: he listens to
people, gives them advice if they want it but need not necessarily do so. Nor
need he solve any problems (that's up to the patient). It's an easy way to
become quite well-off, if only somewhat respected.

I wish I had back all the money and time I gave for psychological counseling
when I was young, even w/o interest. I'd be much wealthier and better off.

------
jammygit
There is some advice in meditation books to practice gratitude and empathy
that is supposed to help.

------
andersthue
The anatomy of peace helped me focus on others instead of myself, I can highly
recommend it!

------
sillysaurusx
Just be nice.

And realize you can be nice without being a pushover. They're separable.

Those two will get you pretty far.

------
monadic2
Perhaps the best route is acceptance. How can you route your narcissism to a
public good?

------
mullen
If you were a real Narcissist, you are not be the problem, everyone else is
the problem.

------
pstuart
Kids have a way of resetting your sense of focus. Not recommended for all, of
course.

------
throwawaypa123
Or you might find people you do want to listen to. Sometimes you really are
the only sane person or THE most interesting person in the room. It isn't you
who is the problem but the room you occupy.

Think about this, if you were in a room with Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerburg, and
Bernie Madoff, how much talking would you be doing?

Not that much.

~~~
azinman2
Not a helpful comment when this person has suggested it has negatively
affected their life and is looking to change.

~~~
throwawaypa123
The change should be his environment and not him. Far easier to change where
you are than WHAT you are.

~~~
azinman2
This is a very destructive comment, and I hope that no one is seriously
reading this and thinking it's ok and applies to them. The most socially
unadjusted people I know often blame everyone else around them except for
themselves, when it's clear that they were both acting like jerks and totally
unaware the entire time. I have a friend that's literally jobless and in
poverty now because he was continuously let go project after project due to
his combativeness. It's far easier in this case for him to change his behavior
than to find a place to work with high salary that allows combative behavior.

You can and should always work on yourself. Focusing on self-awareness and
feedback from others helps a lot to adjust your behavior to make others around
you feel loved and supported, which in turn will only make your life way
easier because people will like you and want to see you succeed. It's a normal
part of maturing. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not the right thing
to do.

~~~
throwawaypa123
It is about degrees. I used to be miserable trying to "behave" and realized
that I was in the wrong environment. I was not a fit for that company or that
culture. Working in tech has made it that I don't need to behave since most of
my natural tendencies are acceptable there. How bad would it be if someone
said that you have to become something I am not.

I agree that my comments could be harmful if it was the only one, but there
needs to be balance in advice.

I assume this person is "successful", may be that's the faulty assumption.

~~~
azinman2
Tech being filled with narcissists is not a good thing. It drives many away
who could provide better balance, and does major damage long term to the
culture. There’s a big backlash against the “arrogance” of Silicon Valley for
a reason.

------
brianfryer
“Rethinking Narcissism” is the best book on the topic that I’ve read so far.

------
exception_e
Can't say I was a narcissist, but I had an epiphany at one point about "being
too full of myself" as well as taking over conversations too often. I really
dug into certain philosophies to help course correct.

The most useful philosophies (for me) were/are Secular Humanism and
Utilitarianism PLUS all of the sub-philosophies inside of each. There are
definitely some problematic ideas in each, but I think you'll gain some new
perspectives.

There are other areas to look at, but what I listed is a good start. Stoicism
can also help with emotional control and being more aware of your thinking.
It's kind of like a "practice".

You can buy books or browse the web for this stuff, of course.

NOTE: I have ZERO credentials in philosophy... it's just my hobby. However, I
don't think my recommendations here are out-of-line as they are pretty high
level. Would love to have more seasoned folks comment/point out other areas of
philosophy that are useful in gaining insights for the OP's issues.

------
rootsudo
Acid.

------
robocat
One path to humility is realising just how astoundingly skilled some people
are at skills you would like to have, but don’t have (and may never be good
at).

You already realise you are missing some interpersonal skills, so you are
hopefully above the “Dunning-Kruger” unskilled and unaware point for some
interpersonal skills (excellent!).

Start by asking others what they see as your weakest skills are. Don’t defend
or argue back, be humble and accept the criticism. They need to be someone you
respect and preferably someone highly skilled in areas you are not (even
though that is obviously extremely difficult for one to judge correctly -
maybe use consensus judgement of others?).

Work on learning those skills from others, or just admiring them.

If you are a guy then learning some traditionally “female” skills is probably
a good start (or vice versa if you are a woman).

This has worked somewhat for me as someone with a reasonably high IQ and a
very well developed ego!

------
papermachete
How To Make Friends and Influence People, Dale Carnegie

There's an audiobook, too.

------
jyounker
Find a therapist. This will be much more help than reading a book.

------
shoulderfake
Magic mushrooms , a few strong trips separated over few years.

------
aprdm
By reading a lot about Buddhism

The art of happiness is a good starting point

------
bluewavescrash
youtube eckhart tolle

~~~
martin-adams
The Power of Now book by Eckhart Tolle was a real mindset shift for me that I
will always be thankful for. The essence being that we live with ourselves,
our egoic mind. When you practice the discipline of not letting your egoic
mind take control, it gives space for seeing yourself and others with a
different mind.

------
kizer
Stop looking at your reflection - in the mirror, in panes of glass...
anywhere. Seriously. Obviously, if you have to for some reason, do it but
minimally. Has other benefits as well.

------
darrelld
If you suspect that you're a narcissist, then you probably aren't one.

True narcissists won't even have the thought cross their mind or see it as
something to fix. They think they are perfect in every way. To admit to
imperfection would shatter their sense of self and that is something they must
protect at all costs. They can't see how their behavior affects others. They
are God's gift to us in their minds.

You're probably just self-centered. Not quite the same as NPD.

Try these things:

* Don't like listening to people? Get over it, practice listening

* Judge situations from just your perspective? Just try to see it from another angle.

* Inflated ego? We all came screaming head first out of a vagina or yanked out of a cut womb. You're not special. We're all going to die.

* Take things too personally? Try meditating.

EDIT:

Been reading through the comments and most of you are uneducated about the
true nature of narcissists or have never crossed paths with one in any
meaningful way (luckily for you).

Here are the spark notes about narcissists:

The DSM-V defines narcissism as:

`A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for
admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a
variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:`

To be categorized as a narcissist you have to meet 5 of 9 traits defined here
:

[https://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/courses/materials/Narc.P...](https://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/courses/materials/Narc.Pers.DSM.pdf)

* Narcissists aren't born, they are created and there is a strong link that shows it is a heritable characteristic learned in early adolescence.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3973692/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3973692/)

* Generally, it's either learned from a parent in the home or traumatic emotional abuse.

* Narcissists have a very fragile ego and are constantly protecting it, they simultaneously want your approval and despise you for their need for your approval.

* Narcissists cannot self reflect as part of a defense mechanism to their ego, they believe they are perfect in every way, and therefore do not need to change their behavior.

* They have their own world view and if you show them differently they will simply ignore it and subsequently you.

* Narcissists thrive on the attention and adoration of others, this can come from their children, co-workers, friends, family, lovers, really anyone. They thrive on both negative and positive attention. This is called narcissistic supply. Narcs need a constant supply to keep their egos inflated. It's like oxygen to them.

* They will utilize a variety of tactics to entangle new forms of supply and keep them confused and entrapped. These tactics include:

\- Love bombing (Constant praise, stroking your ego, constant attention)

\- Mirroring (You like snowboarding? I like snowboarding! you like video
games? I like video games!)

\- Projection (You're going to cheat/ steal/ lie, meanwhile they are doing
exactly those things to you. They will accuse you of these things first to
muddy the waters when you eventually catch on to their behavior)

\- Word salads (complete nonsense, logical fallacies out of their mouths to
confuse you when talking or arguing)

\- Extreme mischaracterization or exaggeration of what you've said

\- Moving goalposts (I'll start helping with chores when my minor injury heals
when I'm less stressed when it's spring etc)

\- Conditioning (Like pavlovian training: if you're in a good mood doing a
certain activity they will start an argument to soil your association with
that activity)

\- Gaslighting (I didn't say I liked video games, you must have misunderstood
me)

\- Name calling and aggressive criticism (Usually disguised as a joke or with
a "Just kidding!")

\- Triangulation or Flying Monkeys (using a third party to torment you
further)

\- Discard /devaluation (Once you've caught onto them, or they've found a
better source of supply you will be ignored or spoken about in condescending
terms)

* Narcissists cannot truly generate happiness of their own, so they try to leech it from others and hate them for their ability to generate happiness

* Extended contact with a narcissist can lead to CPTSD

* Narcissists cannot change because they do not want to change since they see nothing wrong with their behavior.

In short, all of this advice to read a book, join a club, start a family, etc
is useless for a narcissist. Also, narcissists are highly resistant to
therapy. They rarely check themselves in and they only time they end up in
front of a therapist is for something unrelated to their narcissism.

If you meet one run.

~~~
MadWombat
> Take things too personally? Try meditating.

How would it help?

~~~
darrelld
I've found meditation to give me perspective on things. It gives your brain a
chance to slow down and reflect.

The effects of meditation tend to last well beyond the initial mediation
session and seep into your day to day interactions.

I used to take everything personally and be paranoid about everything all the
time and meditation helped with that.

YMMV.

~~~
MadWombat
The problem I have with statements like the one commented on is that there is
no such thing as "meditation". There is a whole bunch of very different
techniques from a whole bunch of different cultures that are all called
meditation and the only thing they have in common is that it is a mental
exercise of some sort. But considering how different these techniques are, it
would be strange to expect them to provide any kind of common effect, like
making you take things less personally. It also makes phrases like "I meditate
every day" and "You should try meditation" meaningless. Consider spiritual
exercises of Ignatius Loyola and compare them, say, to a Sufi Zikr and to a
Hatha Yoga practice. All three are most definitely meditation practices, so
when you say "you should meditate" do you mean I should drop on my knees and
pray to Jesus, gather a bunch of guys and run in cicles singing in arabic or
do a downward dog? And do you think any one of these would help me take things
less personally?

~~~
simmanian
I think it's fair to say that "try meditating" can be a vague suggestion,
especially for those who don't know much about meditation. But I have to ask,
are you having these doubts because you actually want to try meditation but
don't know where to start? Or do you simply not want to try it? I ask because
while there are indeed tons of different ways to meditate, they usually
converge on a very specific set of themes and practices.

I recommend reading The Mind Illuminated by Yates if you're seriously looking
to start. I find it to be a good resource for technical people.

------
_zamorano_
Just by asking the question you've already done half of the work. It's like
AA, you first need awareness and that's a big step in the right way.

------
achenatx
assume you are mostly wrong and ignorant. Treat every conversation as an
opportunity to remedy it.

------
palisade
By being better than everyone else.

------
definitelyRobot
Leaving social media.

------
Wootah
I went to church.

------
Antoninus
Don't take yourself too seriously.

------
metabagel
Meditate.

------
hosh
Before I write out my tips, I'd like to say this: there is a big difference
between being 'narcissitic' the way you have described it, and having
Narcissitic Personality Disorder. There is a lot of confusion on that subject.

Having said that, there are a lot of things someone can do, and no single one
of them will be a panacea. There are three things I would suggest, and third
one, while very effective, is probably too "out there" for people. I will
offer it here and let you decide.

The first is the practice of mindfulness meditation. That you are aware enough
of your pattern is a great start. Although the point of mindfulness meditation
is to awaken to one's true nature of being, there are fringe benefits when it
comes to realizing how sensations and feelings arise within us. It is this
fringe benefit that lets us be aware and make changes to our core being.
Without mindfulness meditation, it is difficult to make any lasting changes to
ourselves.

The second, is that you might want to consider seeking a therapist who can
work with you on this. There are many modalities. Not every one will work. But
issues such as taking things too personally actually has a lot to do with
being insecure and overcompensating for that. This can be combined with the
mindfulness practice. I understand that there is a perceived stigma to going
to therapy ... it might help to view this as going to a coach, who can help
you be the best you while having healthy, functioning relationships with
others.

The third, and most "out there" is something that really requires the first
two suggestion. This having an acupuncturist needle some specific points. But
it can't just be any acupuncturist. Not all acupuncturists are sensitive to
subtle energy, and for this to work, you'll need to find one who is. Not only
that, someone with the knowledge to work on what are called the "extraordinary
meridians". Working with those are not covered under the accredited
acupuncture schooling needed to receive a license to practice acupuncture. It
most definitely falls outside of evidence-based medicine.

But if you do manage to find such a person, they can work on these meridians,
some of which are directly regulating one's self-esteem, being overly critical
of other people, being able to take feedback, listening to others, etc. The
pair that is most directly related to that are what are called the "yin qiao"
and "yang qiao" meridians.

The thing is, to get the most out of it, you may need therapeutic help as
well. Successfully triggering this will shift things, bring up memories,
change how you feel. You might not feel like yourself.

Thing is, when I used this method for myself, it was the thing that finally
improved the relationship I have with my wife.

------
verganileonardo
Therapy

------
KnobbleMcKnees
I don't want to jump to conclusions here but it's _possible_ , nay _probable_
, that you're a software engineer.

------
vearwhershuh
Get married and have kids.

Nothing will cure narcissism more effectively than holding a quivering,
helpless newborn in your arms and realizing that you must keep this miracle
alive.

~~~
yters
I have to agree with this. Getting married has definitely forced me out of my
shell. In general, getting involved in groups, e.g. religion, that is about
more than self gratification gives me a broader perspective on life.

~~~
darrelld
People with Narcissistic parents suffer. Their children are just tools to prop
them and their ego up.

See r/raisedbynarcissists

Pushing a narc to have a family is a terrible idea.

~~~
yters
Depends if the narc wants to change or not. If not, then most anything they do
will be unhelpful.

------
mapcars
If you are narcissistic then your desire to change is also narcissistic, this
means its completely useless. If it's not then you are not narcissistic. It
seems to me that you are just playing around and the only thing which needs to
be done is to accept what it is.

