
Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) - ignored
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/08/style/men-emotions-mankind-project.html
======
bmarquez
I participated in men's work, not specifically the ManKind Project but a
closely related organization. I personally found it helpful doing weekly
check-ins and having people holding me accountable to my goals.

Unfortunately, the stigma regarding men sharing feelings is prevalent in
western society, and it's not only the men causing it. When I told several
female friends about the work they did, their response was: "Are they gay?"

~~~
munificent
_> it's not only the men causing it._

One thing I find fascinating about humans is that we are so _compulsively_
cultural that we will actively propagate cultural practices that are harmful
even to ourselves. When you are young, you absorb whatever culture is around
you completely uncritically, and then you immediately turn around and start
broadcasting to the next generation.

Cultural changes and evolves, of course, but it's _really_ hard to uproot a
norm or more once it's settled in, even if it's one that causes you personal
pain.

~~~
throwaway87378
> Cultural changes and evolves, of course, but it's really hard to uproot a
> norm or more once it's settled in, even if it's one that causes you personal
> pain.

Terence McKenna lectured on this at length. Here are some apropos quotations:

"As a global civilization, we can no longer afford the luxury of an
unconscious mind. When you can pull down the fusion processes that light the
stars on the cities of your enemies, when you can sequence DNA, when you can
map the heart of the atom, then it is entirely inappropriate to have an
unconscious mind, because the power that is given onto you is a kind of god-
like Promethean power. So how can we switch on the lights on our animal
nature…? I think it is very simple: we have to de-condition ourselves from
culture. We are sick, we require medical intervention… into what is a
galloping, cancerous state of neurosis - the growth and spread of ego. Ego is
like a calcareous growth in the psyche of human beings, and if it is not
treated, it creates the kind of society that we have. A society based on
hierarchy, male dominance, accumulation of physical goods,suppression of the
weak by the strong… This is why the psychedelics are so socially sensitive,
because they dissolve de-conditioning. Every culture is a scam. Every culture
is a lie. A shell game, run by weasels, for the amusement of rubes. If you do
not want to be a weasel or a rube, then you need to inform yourself of how the
shell game works, and what lies beyond the carnival midway of civilized
values. And the way to do that is to go back to the plants, to the original
gnosis."

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IO7pHD3X9M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IO7pHD3X9M)

"Culture is an effort to satisfy this weird desire human beings have to close
off experience, to live with closure, to force closure. That is why cultural
trips are so bizarre; why they don't make sense to anybody but the Witoto, or
the Guaraní, or the Americans, or the Japanese. If you are not inside a
culture, it seems crazy. Cultures do not make sense because they are not
trying to make sense. What they are trying to do is produce closure, which
then somehow makes a human being, who is living in the light of closure, a
more manipulable, a more malleable, a lesser thing… The message coming back at
all of us is: live without closure. That is the honest position given that you
are some kind of a talking monkey, some kind of a primate, some kind of
creature, on a planet, in an animal body,in a time and space. In the face of
that, life without closure is the only kind of intellectual honesty there is.
If you have to inoculate yourself against the various means of closure that
are around,psychedelics do that. That is why they are so politically
controversial and potent, because more than any other single act that you may
voluntarily undertake, they pull the plug on the myth of cultural meaning."

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oydTqnrXCGY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oydTqnrXCGY)

~~~
bigred100
Sorry for the offensive phrasing, but was this guy known for things beyond
telling people to do DMT?

~~~
airbreather
You missed magic mushrooms

------
jimkleiber
I love HN...I've been waiting for this topic :-D

I'm a man who has focused on and has been building tools to get better at
expressing my emotions since 2012, including an app called iFeelio, in which I
answered the question "how do I feel" over 4,000 times across 4 years and a
class called Emotional Self-Defense, which I've run in the US, Europe, and
Africa. I have realized and re-realized many things along the way.

One thing I've seen is that each culture seems to have rules about which
emotions one is allowed to express and not allowed to express, based on the
specific contexts. We often say that men aren't allowed to express our
emotions, but I don't think that's the case. We men (in the US) are often
allowed to express anger, confidence, feelings of triumph, horniness (maybe),
calmness, and maybe even excitement. We're often not allowed to express
tenderness, sadness, confusion, uncertainty, fury, etc. And funny enough, when
watching our favorite sports team, we're pretty much allowed to express all of
the emotions above and more. On the other hand, in the workplace, we're not
allowed to really express much at all.

Women may have a different list, as well as people from the Midwest or
California, those born in the 60s, digital natives, engineers, or really any
different culture or sub-culture.

That being said, I'm glad to see programs like MKP and Evryman providing the
place, and moreover, the permission, to express all of the emotions. (Save a
Warrior is one I recommend for military vets—I was a witness on one of the
programs and it really helped to open my heart and the hearts of the other
guys.)

I'd love to chat with anyone on here about this, either in the comments or on
Twitter, Telegram, keybase, or whatever people on HN use these days. Check my
HN profile for those usernames.

~~~
friendlybus
You'll have to keep running it over the next 4-8 years to filter out the short
term cultural changes. The expression of sadness will likely ramp up from it's
locked up baseline now to 2024.

~~~
jimkleiber
I'm a little confused...what do you mean that the expression of sadness will
ramp up?

~~~
friendlybus
It's an art thing. Hard to compress into a short comment. As the Trump capture
on sadness fades there will be a natural reversal into an excess of the
expression of sadness. We are seeing the start of it in films where there are
women crying. Not that Trump controls that stuff, but rather he is tapping
into a deeper principle.

The cult like approach to certainty we see on the web will fade over time as
well. Expressions of uncertainty will become more acceptable.

~~~
fapjacks
Can you please decompress your short comment into a fuller one? I am
interested in your thesis, but I still do not understand.

------
sabarn01
Whats wrong with stoicism. Feelings are fleeting in general didn't lead me to
positive places. I think we should put a high value on people that can handle
their own problems.

~~~
dang
I've participated in some of this work and agree that having feeling-sharing
be the top line item is misleading. Feelings are involved, but the core of it
is to face what one has been avoiding, in order to become stronger and grow.
There's plenty of room for stoicism in that.

The way to overcome pain is to acknowledge and include it instead of denying
it. The difference is huge, and most of us need help to get there—personally
contactful help, not idea help. I found it pretty liberating to be able to get
such help from other men, in a group no less. The point is not to become a
gushy feeling-sharer or a sensitive new-age male. It is to no longer be
governed by unconscious feelings and the wounds of early experience.

The organizations that practice this work are not super clear about that
distinction, which I suspect limits their appeal to many men. I went because
of a friend I respect, who in turn went because of a friend he respects. Had
either of us only read an article like this, I doubt we'd have been
interested. Its subtle ironizing, which approaches belittling ("chastened
menfolk", "There, there"), would have turned me off. The photos would have
turned me off too, and I've sat in a lot of workshops (though usually with few
men and many women).

Edit: an interesting thing to me was the gap between practice and theory. Even
though there were parts of the theory behind that work which I didn't
necessarily find appealing, I met quite a few men there who struck me as
having a kind of integrated masculinity (maybe not the best phrase, but it's
hard to find words for these qualities). They seemed strong and open at the
same time. I found myself admiring them and wanting to be more like that
myself. None of this had much to do with expressing feelings or being
emotional; I would use the word presence instead. They maybe even seemed a bit
less emotional than most men I meet—more able to take in what is happening
without being reactive.

So I would say the theory doesn't work as well as the practice. You barely
ever get that! usually it's the other way around.

~~~
fapjacks
This _is_ stoicism though. To process things instead of holding them inside,
bottling them up, or putting them off such that they salt our enjoyment of
life. However there's a social component of this feelings-sharing which is the
subtext of the parent comment. Not all issues need to be shared, and in fact
it's a kind of emotional vampirism to prioritize sharing emotional context
without focusing on the explicit purpose of sharing to process and confront
the issue.

~~~
weberc2
Agreed. What dang referred to admiringly as “integrated masculinity” sounds a
lot like stoicism to me.

------
monksy
I think we're starting to hit a critical moment with this.

As men we have an unbelievable amount of expectation on our reactions,
communication, behavior, past behavior, and others behavior. (Their friends
and their partners)

On top of all of this: Men spaces have been mostly eliminated.

~~~
jalgos_eminator
What were the men's spaces before? Legitimate question as I may be too young
to have known them.

~~~
monksy
Gentlemen clubs, country clubs, bars (although I don't think it should have
been single gender), other than this.. I can't name many of the other ones.
They were mostly gone by the time I became an adult.

Anyways, I have heard of discrimination that men have faced when trying to
create "safe"/support groups that were men only.

~~~
ghettoimp
I don't think I understand the desire or the concern here. Look around the BBQ
in the back yard at any party anywhere in 'merica and you'll find the guys
hanging out and chatting away from their wives. Look at sports teams in your
high schools, colleges, and local clubs and you'll find men hanging out
together. Look at Men's bible study groups or similar if that's your thing. Go
to the local men's barber shop and find a bunch of guys getting haircuts.
Invite your buddies to your place to watch the game...

~~~
monksy
> Look around the BBQ in the back yard at any party anywhere in 'merica and
> you'll find the guys hanging out and chatting away from their wives.

I don't know about your experience. But my experience: BBQs are typically a
party situation with your household and others. If it's just the guys that's a
friends thing.

> Look at sports teams in your high schools, colleges, and local clubs and
> you'll find men hanging out together.

I haven't heard of such of a clubs.

> Look at Men's bible study groups or similar if that's your thing.

I'll agree with you on this. That qualifies for what I was suggesting. It's a
social thing and gets people to talk.

> Go to the local men's barber shop and find a bunch of guys getting haircuts.

Is that an environment that guys would open up? Most of these places tend to
be "mind your own business and lets not talk that much" kinds of places.

~~~
jinglebells
You'd be surprised

[https://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/mental-health/what-is-
bar...](https://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/mental-health/what-is-barbershop-
therapy-20180823)

------
oriel
Having gone through this retreat (the NWTA) with the MKP, I can easily point
to it as the most legitimate and profound event I've had/attended in my life.
Its important to take in context, I'm in my mid 30s, and was emotionally ready
for the messages and teachings. Doing the work in a safe space was nothing
short of life changing. In my work life, personal life, and love life. And
most of all for my own quality of life.

For anyone who is actually interested, I would recommend the book Iron John,
by Robert Bly ([https://www.amazon.com/Iron-John-Book-about-
Men/dp/030682426...](https://www.amazon.com/Iron-John-Book-about-
Men/dp/0306824264)). The first chapter is usually assigned reading before
attending the NWTA, but when read with an open mind I found the entire book to
be profound. Profound isnt the best word, but I experienced the content as if
I personally was being spoken to through the pages; my problems, my struggles
and my victories. Spoken to with support, compassion and understanding. I re-
read it every year.

Beyond sharing that however, seeing how much vitriolic hyperbole is being
thrown around within 2h of posting, I dont feel it productive to share
anymore. You might say that the vulnerability it requires of a man to speak to
other men (and women!) who are openly hostile (and often deliberately
misunderstanding) about this topic can be nothing short of herculean.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
I recently did the NWTA and found it shockingly profound and powerful. I’m
glad to hear the effects have stuck with you.

~~~
oriel
They have! I went through it in 2017, and the unfolding and cascade of
realizations and perspective shifts have not only flipped my life (for the
best), but also instilled permanent changes in how i participate in
communities, interact with people, and support the ones I care about.

------
Consultant32452
Am I the only one who sees men sharing their feelings all the time? To me it
seems like men simply process things differently than women, so women and the
feminized psychiatry field don't recognize it's happening.

We live in an age where men are being villainized at every turn, and this is
just another way men are being told they don't measure up... because they
aren't sharing in a way that women recognize. With all due deference to my
trans friends, men are not simply women with penises.

~~~
johnny22
Men aren't sharing feelings in a way I understand most of the time, and I'm
one of them. I could never get my friends to truly open up unless it was a one
on one conversation.

~~~
Consultant32452
That's not how men process things. Men process things by trying to eliminate
perceived unnecessary information and take action. Women are more inclined to
want to sit down and discuss all the details of whatever is going on, many of
those details the man would not perceive as useful.

This is the age old men vs women problem where women feel like men don't want
to talk about problems/feelings and men feel like women just want to blabber
on without ever solving anything.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
> _That 's not how men process things. Men process things by trying to
> eliminate perceived unnecessary information and take action. Women are more
> inclined to want to sit down and discuss all the details of whatever is
> going on, many of those details the man would not perceive as useful._

I'm a man. Sometimes I do the former, more often the latter. And I do feel
shamed for that, sometimes.

Expecting men and women to fit into neat, stereotyped boxes like this is a big
part of the problem.

~~~
Consultant32452
I didn't mean every single man on the planet any more than the article did.
It's not helpful to change conversations from one level of abstraction to
another.

------
marmada
As a man, I agree sharing emotions is important. Too many males in society
don't have someone to cry with or listen to their problems.

On the other hand, I do worry about "emotional masturbation". Simply put,
sometimes we indulge ourselves in sadness/fear/anger because it makes us feel
_something_ and feeling _something_ is better/more exhilarating/exciting than
feeling nothing at all.

For example, I have some insecurities. Sometimes I feel like talking about
them may be pro-actively bad because I am indulging myself and making my
insecurities occupy more mental space/brain power.

~~~
kungtotte
Talking about emotions is just one part of it. Society in general needs to be
better educated and equipped with mental health tools. Things like cognitive
behavioural therapy, emotional intelligence, mindfulness, transactional
analysis are all ways to understand and deal with our emotions.

It's no good just blurting out whatever it is you're feeling and like you say,
turn it into a masturbatory indulgence, but we should still promote talking
about out feelings because suppressing them is no better than having an
emotional wank.

------
atoav
This might be one of _the_ issues of our times: men unable to talk about their
feelings, unable to maybe even care about themselves because we learned we
shouldn’t and we are afraid how we are seen if we do.

Sometimes beeing strong means to become vulnerable.

~~~
ionforce
It sounds like you're saying this is a high priority issue. Why do you feel
that way?

~~~
atoav
It is a legitimate question. I feel that way, because as a society we are in a
state of transformation right now.

By pure rational thought many young men have accepted to treat women like
equal human beeings, just as many women have understood that the traditional
division of gender roles might not fit all social encounters.

The issue is, that understanding and doing are two seperate things and
switching between the old and the new paradigma when it fits us seems to be
common place.

So many men end up getting the worst of both worlds: they are not the strong
leader of the family any more, but they were still raised in a way to hide
their feelings, just like many women are expected to be strong while they
might not always have been raised in that way.

The thing we aim for as a society here is defintly worth it (I could
experience for myself how amazing a relationship of equals between man and
woman can be), but there are many people who struggle with this and it leads
to all kind of societal side effects like depression, suicide, drug abuse and
violence.

To be fair in times when the man had to be strong this was also a problem,
because there are always people who simply don’t fit the role society wants
them to take and if you force them into it bad things happen.

Communicating your own feelings is important for mental health. Anyone who
struggles with this: get help. Write letters to a person that you never send —
writing will help you to think and reflect.

~~~
SuddsMcDuff
> "By pure rational thought many young men have accepted to treat women like
> equal human beeings"

You make it sound as though men have never considered women as equal human
beings until some recent enlightenment. I find this world view to be
absolutely apalling, and arrogant. You're denying a history where the vast,
vast majority of relationships between men and women (eg. marriages) were
cooperative, reciprocal, and built upon a foundation of mutual respect.

> "The thing we aim for as a society here is defintly worth it (I could
> experience for myself how amazing a relationship of equals between man and
> woman can be)"

A relationship of equals betwen a man and a woman is not some novel new
concept we should aspire to, it is completely normal and has been for
hundreds, if not thousands of years.

------
perlgod
I wouldn’t take this as a representative sample of all men.

In my experience, sharing feelings makes me feel worse and substantially
reduces my appeal to others. I prefer to just deal with my problems logically
and avoid such navel gazing.

~~~
lonelappde
What is illogical about discussing feelings?

Is it illogical to ask for food if you are hungry?

~~~
nitwit005
If he just feels worse, it's certainly illogical to keep doing it.

It's fairly common for people to have adverse reactions to therapy. Not
everyone reacts the same to this sort of thing.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
That's kind of a spurious argument to make without drawing it out a bit.
Exercise doesn't feel good (at first) if you're morbidly obese, but that's
because you _really_ need it.

Adverse reactions to therapy might mean that therapy isn't for you. But more
commonly, I think it probably means that you don't have the right therapist
and / or you have some really heavy, painful shit that you need to deal with
but don't want to. Otherwise you wouldn't be having "adverse reactions" to
simply sitting in a room with another human to talk about your life.

~~~
nitwit005
Everyone is exactly the same. Everyone feels good about exactly the same
things, and bad about exactly the same things.

What I just said is clearly ridiculous.

It should not be a surprise that some people don't feel positive about talking
about their lives. If you can't imagine it, I'm afraid you may lack
imagination.

------
kleer001
I've got a pet peeve for articles that focus on events as if they were
isolated in time, one of a kind, or unprecedented.

No mention of similar mens groups that occurred 30 to 50+ years ago? There's
the Mythopoetic men's movement for one.

~~~
dang
MKP has been around for 30+ years and as far as I know is the keystone
organization of that movement.

You're right that the article would be better if it weren't so ahistorical.

------
rebuilder
I feel this article demonstrates why gender equality is damn hard for us right
now.

I'm male. I believe that has had a significant effect on my upbringing.

I'm an individual. I believe a whole lot of things have had a significant
effect on my upbringing.

Why would I want to try to resolve my issues within this gendered framework?
Am I really primarily male? That seems like a forced choice to me.

~~~
devtul
You can't discard the different pressures specific to each gender, and how
each gender deals in their own way with those issues. This reminds me of
schools that deal with boys like they are "broken girls", they are ignoring
their natural gender attributes when assessing what's acceptable behavior.

~~~
dabbledash
Are you saying that there should be different standards of acceptable behavior
for boys versus girls. Or are you saying if the schools paid more attention to
how boys normally behave, they would accept a more broad definition of
“acceptable behavior” for all children?

~~~
mensetmanusman
Yes, people are different, you need extremely flexible standards to
accommodate this. Right now the standards are far too rigid, and we have
enough data now to know that on average they harm boys far more than girls.

~~~
dabbledash
So, yes to the second interpretation I mentioned?

------
ryanwaggoner
I recently did the NWTA weekend retreat with the ManKind Project and found it
a surprisingly profound experience. I would recommend it for most men I’ve
known. Happy to answer any questions anyone has.

I’m not surprised to see so much pushback and gatekeeping here from other men,
or suggestions that encouraging men to find spaces to “talk about their
feelings” are a radical feminist ploy to subvert true masculinity, but I am
saddened by them. That attitude reflects a deep sickness that is at the heart
of what makes it so hard to be an authentic, open man in today’s culture. MKP
and similar organizations are one of the few healthy forces I see working
against this.

~~~
anon9001
It's a mainstream idea now that masculinity is toxic, so it's not surprising
that people are projecting that onto this.

Calling it "New Warrior Training Adventure" comes across as super patronizing.
"ManKind" isn't great either. The names alone are surely responsible for much
of the pushback that you're seeing.

I did a bit of digging though, trying to keep an open mind, and I was
surprised to find that MKP is indeed _not_ a radical program to feminize men.

Their FAQ is pretty informative: [https://mankindproject.org/frequently-asked-
questions](https://mankindproject.org/frequently-asked-questions)

Their YouTube channel gives a feel for it:
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcR01KkQCYfHbzHwBlI8eeg](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcR01KkQCYfHbzHwBlI8eeg)

Basically, it's a small nondenominational religion for woke men. The leaders
are a Marine Corps officer, a therapist, and a PhD of "curriculum studies".
It's not very surprising to see all the comments here about how profound it
was, because it was designed to be a spiritual experience.

It looks like a cult and is certainly weird (nudity is optional), but the
leaders aren't getting rich off of it, and you are allowed to leave. There are
regular meetings, rituals, a set of shared values, and a drive to recruit more
members. It seems like mostly dudes who want to better themselves and the
world at large. A lot of it is classic self-help stuff. They advertise NWTA as
"Get Ready for a 48 Hour Adventure that Can Transform Your World as a Man",
for example.

I think people are right to be skeptical of these types of groups, as they're
playing to an audience of disaffected men and trying to improve lives with
groupthink and rituals. I'd place MKP somewhere between Scientology and Tony
Robbins. Probably a powerful experience in person, but best to avoid it or you
might get roped into an organization.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
I find the comparisons to cults to be completely bizarre. It's definitely not
a cult. Or at least, not a very good one. You can leave if you want, you don't
have to participate in anything you don't want to, there's no "drive to
recruit more members", or even really to become a member at all, it's staffed
by volunteers, there's no central figure or authority like most cults, there's
very little pressure to participate after the NWTA beyond encouragement to
consider attending the weekly or biweekly groups that the article talks about
or perhaps volunteering to staff a future NWTA. Placing it between scientology
and Tony Robbins is completely off base imo, but I have no direct experience
with either. All I'd say is that if they're trying create a cult to rope
people into an organization, they're doing a terrible job of it. And it's not
even clear what the goal would be. The suggested monthly donation of $10 to
support the nonprofit if you do become a member, which again, they don't
really push at all? Seems like a pretty shitty cult to spend decades ramping
up.

~~~
anon9001
I think you took my comment differently than intended. My fault for phrasing
it poorly.

First, you are correct that MKP is not a cult and everything you're saying
here checks out with the research I just did into MKP.

What I meant was that it is cult-like in appearance. It's an engineered
experience for human bonding and introspection. The members are doing stuff
that's out of the ordinary and trying to connect to some deeper spiritual
thing. Sometimes people get naked. There's a big wooden phallus used as a
talking stick. There's a bunch of oversharing. It's not a cult, but it's not
exactly Rotary Club either.

As far as roping you in, of course it's designed for that. The group couldn't
grow without getting you to come back. There's a good chance you're going to
form bonds with the other people in the group if you do a bunch of emotional
stuff with them on a retreat. That's a social situation that I'd much prefer
to avoid.

I looked at your HN profile and I see that you're a life coach for
freelancers, so you might be less sensitive to what's triggering me about MKP.
Don't take this the wrong way, but your site gives me a similar feeling as the
MKP stuff. I'm pretty sure I'm your target too, as a developer considering
switching to freelance work. I wish I could give you something more useful
than "feels scammy, stay away", but that's how it comes across to me. And
you're blogging about "mastermind groups", which also give me the same feel.
It's possible that I'm just hyper-sensitive, but I think you'll have an easier
time getting through to developers if you aren't tripping the alarm that tells
me "this is a cult" or "here comes a pitch for an ebook".

As a side note, I wonder if you get many calls from putting your number in
your HN profile. That was definitely noticeable and didn't trigger my
overactive skepticism at all (even though it's obvious self promotion, it
feels authentic).

~~~
ryanwaggoner
_I looked at your HN profile and I see that you 're a life coach for
freelancers, so you might be less sensitive to what's triggering me about MKP.
Don't take this the wrong way, but your site gives me a similar feeling as the
MKP stuff. I'm pretty sure I'm your target too, as a developer considering
switching to freelance work. I wish I could give you something more useful
than "feels scammy, stay away", but that's how it comes across to me. And
you're blogging about "mastermind groups", which also give me the same feel.
It's possible that I'm just hyper-sensitive, but I think you'll have an easier
time getting through to developers if you aren't tripping the alarm that tells
me "this is a cult" or "here comes a pitch for an ebook"._

I hear you, but honestly, that just means you're not the target market. I sell
training products and coaching to freelancers of all types, so not really
"life coaching". My opinion after selling all types of products and services
is that developers are, on average, a terrible market. We know the price of
everything and the value of nothing, we value our time way too low, we under-
invest in relationship, and we're overly skeptical and critical. Having a
marketing message that polarizes people into love/hate is a good thing.

------
michalu
According to the San Jose Mercury News, the Sterling Institute of Relationship
has a "history of complaints" at the Oakland, California division of the
Better Business Bureau, and also at the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

The seminar was described in Details Magazine as having a "cult like
subculture." (Wikipedia)

Also this:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Brainwashed/comments/1tb1cb/a_justi...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Brainwashed/comments/1tb1cb/a_justin_sterling_and_the_sterling_institute_cult/)

Classic case of cult business.

------
tempsy
I only very recently came to the realization that my emotional numbness was
caused by the emotional distance & neglect I experienced as a child. I'm still
working through it, but I do think part of it was in part due to my immigrant
parents believing that emotions were reserved for girls and not boys.

Believe me, it's not a fun place to be, and I hope new parents do realize how
important it is to teach young children how to make sense of their emotions.

------
asabjorn
There is much beauty and wonder in the interplay between as well as within the
genders. However, men are not imperfect women that would be improved if we
adopted the other genders mannerisms. We both need to be open to listening to
each other when providing the loving support that we want and need.

This article seem to be written by an ideologically inclined woman. A woman
trying to understand the men in her life better might be helped more . by
reading:
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594151121/ref=dbs_a_def_r...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594151121/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i1)

A man trying to understand the women in his life better might be helped by
reading:
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1601425740/ref=dbs_a_def_r...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1601425740/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i2)

~~~
cthalupa
Please disclaim when you are linking material that has a religious bent. Both
of these books appear to be based upon the Christian belief system and as such
might not be of any interest to someone with a different (or nonexistent)
belief system.

~~~
asabjorn
I thought the book was one of the better ones I've read on the topic, so I
recommended it. It is not a spiritual book.

I likewise would recommend reading "Islamic Patterns: An analytical and
cosmological approach" when approaching geometry.

Either the book is good or not in getting you to understand something you
don't currently understand. I trust the reader to be able to make their own
judgements, especially in this case where you can read the book for the
opposite gender to see if they are full of bullshit.

~~~
anon9001
Huh, neat. I had no idea there was a name for "islamic patterns", but they
look like exactly what I expected.

People have been making this sort of stuff since way before LSD was invented,
but I can't help notice how incredibly similar the patterns are to psychedelic
hallucinations. To see them described as "sacred geometries" makes a lot of
sense for reasons I can't quite explain.

~~~
asabjorn
Yes, it’s very fun. Studying this is the rabbit hole of rabbit holes.

I recommend the podcast The Portal by Eric Weinstein if you want the idea
equivalent of this stuff.

~~~
anon9001
In case anyone else is interested:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM9f0W2KD5s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM9f0W2KD5s)

~~~
asabjorn
I typically listen to it on Apple podcasts
[https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-
portal/id146999956...](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-
portal/id1469999563) or Spotify where he posts the episode earlier
[https://open.spotify.com/show/3qv8BS1HzrgKpDnXSlYWWL?si=cUA0...](https://open.spotify.com/show/3qv8BS1HzrgKpDnXSlYWWL?si=cUA0m1WxR6y0ClOLiCcFVQ)

------
holdenc
Isn't this one of the surprising parts of growing old? As a young person you
may feel that your future self will be attended by loving family members and
caring friends. But, once you become a "head of household" or head of
anything, it's often quite the opposite. Instead, you are responsible for
attending to the emotional needs others.

------
dec0dedab0de
_It focuses on men’s emotional well-being... and good old-fashioned male
bonding. Minus ogling women, drinking or fist fighting, of course._

Nothing helps me get through feelings more than getting punched, and punching
someone. Its the main reason I still goto hardcore/punk shows. The moshpit is
a group therapy session.

------
davesque
I guess it's a balance. Sometimes, you need to face what you're feeling. Other
times, you need to avoid getting caught up in it and just press forward. I
suppose it might also depend on the character of the feeling. Some feelings
seem more honest and connected to something bigger. Other feelings can just
torment a person and are like energy traps e.g. feelings of jealousy about not
going to an elite college (I've struggled with this a lot. And, as the years
go by, I realize more and more that I don't want to waste my time with it). I
guess it's up to every person to figure out which is which in their own mind.

------
macspoofing
It's a meme right now that men, as a group, need to be more in touch with
their emotions or should express their emotions better, or some variation of
the fact. Basically the comparison is drawn to women with the subtext that
women are doing it right and men should follow. Has anyone actually asked if
that is in fact true? For example, the "strong silent type" (i.e. stoicism) is
a an archetype across cultures and maybe for some (or most) men that is the
better path forward for their mental well-being.

------
abathur
I don't want to go around picking on specific comments or arguments, but I
still wanted to address what reads like a lot of insecurity and scar tissue,
here...

\- It's better to understand people than to not understand them. Averages and
stereotypes are not a great way to understand individual people.

\- If you want to understand why a person did or thinks something, a good
place to start is with a generous assumption that you might have done or
thought the same if you had the same experiences. Reflect on what sort of
experiences might fulfill this statement.

\- Assume completely understanding an intelligence is impossible. If you
haven't before, pay close attention to your internal narrative(s) until you
catch yourself telling yourself a story about why you did or said or thought
something. This is you, reflecting on what sorts of experiences led you to do
or think something. This is evidence that we don't understand our own
intelligence.

\- Don't be surprised if you find you are less generous when reflecting on
what experiences lead you to do something than you are to others. You have,
after all, been trying to understand why you do what you do your entire life.
Look for opportunities to show yourself (and, more importantly, your internal
narratives) that you care. This may feel stupid. Reflect on what experiences
might lead you to think it is stupid to show yourself that you care.

\- If you are more generous with yourself, you aren't giving the rest of us
enough credit. We all contain multitudes.

------
neonate
[http://archive.is/thjVn](http://archive.is/thjVn)

------
ykevinator
Feels a little unnatural.

------
michalu
I've done a bunch of these, even went to a jungle for two weeks. After a deep
examination of years of this journey the experiences and getting to know the
participants I found this to be very shallow kind of temporary relief, also
putting aside the fact that it's quite a shitshow and as a man you'll lose a
bit of a self respect.

I often looked around and all I've seen was men who don't need more softness
but more discipline. And women past their prime who are still childless but
looking to find "a meaning of life" while continuing to delude themselves that
the natural purpose of breasts and vagina was sexual pleasure.

On the contrary, I found the greatest relief in training Brazilian jiu-jitsu
and joining a muay thai camp for a month.

It wasn't far from a popular hippie site. But I looked around and I saw a big
difference. A lot of these people on 'retreats' aren't seeking change, they
are seeking a pleasurable and an EASY kind of change.

You have people there that cry a little take some drugs hug each other, some
hoping to get laid and basically chill on a "retreat" thinking they're doing
'hard spiritual work.

On the contrary, I saw people in the camp that trained for 4-5 hours and woke
up early morning, conquered the pain and comfort, got out of the bed and went
on to train on their bruised feet. Every day.

And when you're down, your muscles are out of your oxygen and you suffocate
wrestling but still have time to go you start to converse with a voice on your
head that wants you to give up and you'll question a lot of things and learn a
lot about who you really are but you will have to find energy where you think
there's none.

This rewires your brain not whining in the woods.

No you don't need drugs and it doesn't take strength to cry in a group where
everyone cries.

The reason why all the westernized forms of buddhism and all sorts modified of
Eastern practices and drugs like ayahuasca gain popularity is because people
look for easy "fast-food" change.

Ironically people despair in comfort but look for comfortable way to get out
of it.

Everyone who tried ayahuasca or crying in woods, or some other form of
'retreat' knows the change lasts about a week.

Worse, some people get addicted to seeking this relief and continue falling
back to depression actively, just so they can get back and get some hugs. I
know it's over-simplified but a lot of them will get addicted to the community
and other paying attention to them even though it's artificial they get more
of it than in their real lives.

In better case, you'll become a bozo kind of like Jim Carrey and crash parties
just to tell everyone how deluded they are and how enlightened you are ...
because duh fools, can't you see what I see "we're all one."

Finally, after a decade of searching I found that classical philosophy and in
fact christian philosophy, as ridiculed as it is in media and the western
society, the true deep philosophy, not the shallow popularized image, it
offers all of the hard work and depth none of these 'retreats' will ever
provide.

------
seph-reed
Humanity lives in a bubble, and at the edge of that bubble is an incredibly
harsh reality.

Someone has to stand guard, typically men. Part of staring into the void is
wearing emotional armor. On occasion you should take a break, go towards the
middle of the bubble, be safe and warm, take a bath, eat, drop your armor,
etc.

But that doesn't mean you were wrong to have worn armor at the wall. Nor does
it mean the bubble is reality.

Reality is harsh, and everyone is trying to forget that. I commend those who
refuse to.

~~~
RangerScience
What about reality is harsh, and of that harshness, what is best addressed by
emotional armor, and of _that_ , do you know of any better coping mechanisms
than that emotional armor? Although I do have a direction in mind, I am legit
asking to understand your perspective and knowledge.

~~~
seph-reed
1\. A single, recent example of harshness:

6 weeks ago Epstein was suicided because his trial might have led to even a
few of the super rich 1% from getting reprimanded for raping child sex slaves.
Not only is there nothing any of us can really do about it, the world forgot
in less than week.

Bad is winning. No path to utopia takes the "let them rich rape children" fork
in the road.

2\. Emotional armor:

The above example is a single drop in the ocean. Empathizing with the raped
children hurts. Feeling your powerlessness to do anything about it hurts. Now
start adding the 1000 other awful things that have being done to people. You
already have, and you already have shut down. Nobody can feel that much pain.
But having armor is more about letting yourself take as many hits as possible
before shutting down than hiding. The more cold your empathy, the more you can
stare into the void.

3\. Better coping mechanisms

Dumping this shit into the safe space would defeat the point. It would just
make the world even worse. I put what I can into trying to recruit. We could
really use more strong people, if you're interested. Most of it though, I let
it hurt me, then I use this awesome feature of being a human where I forget
about things. In the moment it sucks, but over time I look back and see a
beautiful existence.

Valor is a quality not easily acquired, and I wish to.

~~~
RangerScience
Yeah, that's about the direction I was expecting. I absolutely agree with you
that these are things are good reasons to have emotional armor.

I disagree that they're reality.

There's reality, consensus reality, and the outcomes of our collective
actions. Including the second two in the first one implies it's unalterable,
implies they're not fundamentally artificial.

------
whalesalad
I really wish HN would implement a 'no ny times' policy.

~~~
bjt2n3904
Oddly, using w3m avoids their paywall.

~~~
whalesalad
The paywall is not what irks me. It's all the crap they post that either
invokes super inflammatory commentary here on HN (like, men being emotional,
men being anxious, men being xyz) or the really NERF-level stuff that lacks
any substance and really just makes you think of Captain Obvious™

~~~
SolaceQuantum
NERF-level?

~~~
alistairSH
Soft and harmless, like Nerf balls and projectiles.

------
pubby
Female sexual attraction favors secure men who don't talk feelings. This
results in men feeling unable to express their emotions around their
significant other.

On the other side, male sexuality selects based on looks more than anything.

Feminism calls the latter shallow and toxic, but truthfully both should have
that label. Neither is serving society or evolution well anymore. But what can
we do? Sexual attraction is an innate, unchanging aspect of what it means to
be man and woman. It isn't going to be removed from our genes anytime soon.

~~~
OtterEcho
I've found that women often appreciate and find men who are authentic,
emotions included, attractive. You can always overshare and if you express
emotions in a way where you put the burden on the other person, I don't think
anybody really enjoys that

~~~
Ancalagon
I disagree, maybe those women appreciate authentic emotions among friends, but
at least while on the dating scene, authenticity NEVER won me any points, and
quite to the contrary, the stoic/mysterious man always won out.

~~~
OtterEcho
I think the stoic/mystery "distant" persona works at first but if you want to
foster and deeper connection between someone as an equal than you have to open
up

------
xythrowaway
How are we, men, supposed to take these articles seriously when we have so
many examples of how bad it is to share our feelings?

Look at the character assassination of Stallman last week. He shared his
feelings with some women, and look at what happened to him. If he had not
communicated his desire to date some of these women, and not communicated his
feelings about the confusing ethics (in his mind) surrounding sexual norms,
he'd still be the leader of the FSF.

Instead, he (stupidly) did share how he was feeling about something, and did
it publically, and look at what happened to him.

I'm sure every single man posting on this website has an example of a time
when they shared how they were feeling, or were vulnerable, to some women, and
had it blow up in their face. I have.

These articles, written by women, telling men to be more self destructive are
ridiculous, and certainly feel like they have an agenda.

~~~
BeetleB
>He shared his feelings with some women, and look at what happened to him.

I don't think he shared any feelings - he expressed his views. Very orthogonal
to sharing feelings.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
Putting it that way somehow seems to make it even worse.

~~~
BeetleB
In this particular case, I'm not sure if it would have made a difference in
the end (him resigning). But had he shared his feelings adequately, I suspect
a lot more people would be defending him now than they are. Had he shown
empathy towards the trafficked woman, while still presenting the very view he
did have, it would have been more challenging to attack him.

Is it crappy that you can't express your views without showing empathy and
then be judged for it? Definitely. But this is nothing new, and not unique to
our age. Wishing for things to be different is wishing for humans to be
otherwise.

Is it crappy that in an academic setting one cannot discuss things objectively
without invoking feelings and get burnt because of it? Yes. But this wasn't
that situation. One side was very clearly _not_ having an academic
conversation, but a very emotionally loaded one (protesting). It was
Stallman's mistake in treating that situation like any other academic one.

Demonstrating empathy[1] is a key aspect of a relationship. Validating
someone's feelings (without agreeing with their narrative) is central to
demonstrating empathy. Unfortunately, the common mistake people make is
assuming that validating one's feelings means you agree with the story in
their heads - it doesn't.

I would often be upset with the way the world was. My having a discussion
about X doesn't mean I agree with X or advocate for it. Yet people may view me
as a horrible person for it. I'm just trying to have an academic discussion,
and exploring ideas, damn it! Isn't that what fiction does? Etc.

But once I learned the dynamics behind all this, I couldn't help and look back
at my earlier life and realize I did not behave all that different. Indeed it
was easy to find examples where I listened more to one side because of their
behavior (showed empathy, discussed instead of debated, etc). It wasn't that I
didn't weigh different perspectives objectively - it was that I didn't listen
as much to one side as the other. And I've realized I haven't met anyone who
is perfect at dispassionately looking at all sides regardless of who is
advocating for them. Understanding the factors that go into play will make you
_better_ at being able to listen to all sides so you can evaluate them
objectively.

Showing empathy with the person whose view you find offensive/wrong is going
to make it _easier_ for you to understand their perspective and not let your
own emotions get in the way. It will help the other person not be defensive,
sarcastic, etc. These are things that bring about strong emotions and
eliminating them from the other will help them explain their perspective
better.

So yes, it does suck - but it's the same type of suckiness as the existence of
bacterial diseases or the fact that I'll starve if I don't eat. Dwelling on it
is futile.

[0] Note I said _demonstrating_ empathy, not _feeling_ or _having_ empathy. I
don't doubt Stallman has empathy for the trafficked person. Sadly, it's not
what you know but what you can show.

------
presidentscroob
I don't understand the point of this article, it comes across to me as
sheltered people with too much spare time maundering over petty, victimhood-
ology nothingburgers. First responders and third-world climate refugees have
real trauma to deal with compared to the petty whining and whinging of
sub/urban white-collar employees who don't know how good they have it.

