
The Hot Girl Effect and Networking - lynx44
http://sirdg.com/2010/12/the-hot-girl-effect-and-networking/
======
maxklein
The theory above is short term (get a date), when there is also the long term
consideration (marry her, have kids). If you are an average joe, the chances
of you having kids with a hot top model are, very frankly, very low. And we
guys know that.

In the same way, the chance of us having a nice chat with the CEO of Goldman
is fair, but the chance of him maintaining contact with us and being a friend
or mentor is pretty low. You don't have the money to hang with him, you don't
have the opportunities to share with him and so on.

So you can get a date with the top model if you're brave. You can get a coffee
with the CEO if you're brave. But I doubt that anything long term will
develop, unless you have true value to offer.

And people evaluate their actual value and see that it probably is not enough
to make it worth their while approaching this person.

An example that I'm sure many here can identify with: How many of you have
emailed Paul Graham asking him for feedback on your app or whatever? Some
brave ones likely have, but how many realistically expect a relationship to
develop out of that?

~~~
dandelany
> people evaluate their actual value and see that it probably is not enough to
> make it worth their while approaching this person.

Cost: Awkwardness, potential for embarrassing rejection.

Benefit: Possible relationship, either short-term or long-term, with the
subject of your admiration.

So in my mind, if you can get over the fear of rejection, there's no reason
not to at least try. Coffee with a CEO is better than nothing, and may
potentially be useful down the road. (Can I have a job? Remember when we had
coffee that one time?) Likewise, a date with a beautiful model, even one, is
better than eating ramen alone. Well, usually. :)

Also, while I agree with what you said about having "true value to offer",
there are many types of value. When developing a relationship with someone
like a CEO, you may not be able to offer them direct monetary value, but you
might be able to give technical insight, an outsider's point of view or a
perspective from a different industry, or even just a like-minded person to
talk about basketball with.

My advice is to look hard for the value you can offer. Knowledge that you may
take for granted is often quite valuable to others, or at least interesting
enough for them to keep you around and ask your opinion.

~~~
rue
There is also cost of your time for the coffee and whatever may follow, as
well as material costs (potentially high when dealing with upper-echelon), so
it is not an outright win situation.

~~~
JanezStupar
No risk no glory!

Only the ones that are willing to fail repeatedly are the ones who _deserve_
to win. What I'm trying to imply here that taking risks while maximizing your
odds is also a skill.

A super hot woman (or GS executive) both appreciate confidence and candor.
They don't want to be treated as "different" - to return to that hot woman -
she doesn't want to be treated as special. Looking into mirror is enough to
get her depressed. She wants to feel ordinary, to be appreciated for being a
woman or at least not a _freak_.

~~~
joe_the_user
I know a founder of one of the top silicone valley start-ups. He's a great guy
and when I happen to see him it's fine to chat. He's very busy so I don't see
him very often.

This relationship gets me zero, zilch, practical benefits.

It's fluke that I know him. Would I expend a lot of effort to get ten
relationships with similarly well-connected people? No, because it would
rather insincere _and_ would get me ten times as much practical benefits (ten
time zeros). The people who I happen to meet and are cool people, I'll be
friends with. The stunningly beautiful ballerinas I've chatted with are nice
also but not the best material for personal relationships...

In other words, the glory of knowing COOs and dating models also over-rated.
And if the models are feeling truly neglected, I'm sure they won't have a
problem introducing themselves to cute guys at bars if they want "glory".

~~~
JanezStupar
Are you of any benefit to your founder friend? My personal strategy is that I
constantly work on maximizing myself as benefit to others. This gives me an
edge - where I can actually pick such _partners_ that return appropriate
value. Increasing demand is actually really simple - just offer better (sought
after) goods.

As far as the _poor pretty girl_ that needs to hit on guys. Unfortunately it
doesn't work this way. Its got a lot to do with guy's and girl's insecurities.

1\. Hot woman hitting on a guy - The natural reaction of the said guy is "It's
a trap!". 2\. Having to hit on guys is awful for this woman - since less
pretty girls don't need to do it. Which starts spinning up in a persons mind
that you _must_ be some sort of freak since a) mend don't hit on you and b)
when you try to hit on men they run away ("It's a trap!").

Oh and the glory thing is just a parable for success.

~~~
joe_the_user
Hmm,

Would you like to have coffee some time next week?

I'm in the SF Bay area and my email is on my profile (for now).

Would Tuesday or Friday work best for you?

------
goodside
"Actually, I’ve found that the more successful and accomplished people are,
typically, it seems like the more humble and friendly they are. Additionally,
they tend to appreciate the value of networking and make an effort to meet new
people."

Nope! This is non-evidence. Successful people who are arrogant and antisocial
are by nature less likely to run into you, so you should expect your observed
pool of people-you-know to be heavily skewed towards the friendliest people.

A similar phenomenon occurs in social network rankings: For any given person
with a reasonable number of Facebook friends, their friends will be, on
average, more popular than the original person (popularity defined by number
of friends). Almost everyone is one of the least popular people in their own
social network.

~~~
woodall
>A similar phenomenon occurs in social network rankings: For any given person
with a reasonable number of Facebook friends, their friends will be, on
average, more popular than the original person (popularity defined by number
of friends). Almost everyone is one of the least popular people in their own
social network.

Is there a name for this phenomenon? Or supplemental reading material?

~~~
etruong42
If we don't consider what made a person "popular", ie have many friends, this
"phenomenon" just makes statistical sense to me. You have a greater chance of
being in a pool of friends that is large, while your pool of Facebook friends
is smaller, so out of that smaller pool you have less of a chance of one of
them being less popular than you. It is already unlikely that unpopular people
are one of your Facebook friends because they themselves have so few friends.

I have no mathematical proof; this is merely what I intuit.

------
iterationx
>>Once a girl passes a certain degree of hotness, the amount of guys hitting
on her drops dramatically.

When a girl starts to become a hot babe then tons of guys hit on her -- its
annoying and time consuming to ward off losers so she develops a "bitch
shield". This defense mechanism tells guys that she is too good for them and
not to bother, from this point on only the cocky guys approach who are not
intimidated by the "bitch shield" (these guys look like assholes to "nice
guys") - then the "nice guys" whine about how they can't get any girls. As
lowlife as the PUA guides are, I still found them informative.

~~~
yason
I wonder how many rejections a man would have to face to develop a "cockiness
shield", to continue pursuing and hitting on women no matter how rejected he
becomes. After all, it's a small effort for a potentially good returns.

With practice he could certainly toughen up with regard to that but I think
that by doing so he would inevitably have shut out part of his heart. Getting
rejected by a woman is hard for a man. H-a-r-d. It might very well be that
once he successfully hits on a woman he finds interesting, he might have a
hard time softening down to something resembling an emotional human being
capable of falling into love and a loving relationship.

~~~
danudey
I had a landlord once who wasn't very social, and as a result wasn't very good
with women (but he was a specialized mechanic and made a ton of money). Was
talking to him one day, and he said that his therapist had given him an
assignment to get out of his shell.

His assignment was to go to a bar (or any sort of similar place) and get
rejected by ten women. That is, between that session and his next (the span of
a week I believe), his goal was to get shot down by ten women in a social
situation. Not necessarily crash and burn, but some kind of rejection.

After a while, you realize rejection isn't really that bad - it's the fear of
rejection that's the big problem. Once you can get over that, you're going to
be doing a lot better.

~~~
sudont
Since you didn't phrase this in terms of "Rejection Therapy" I have to assume
it didn't pop up on your radar. It was pretty popular on here a couple of
weeks ago, and Jason Shen even did a series about trying it out.

How long ago was this? The therapist was probably ahead of his time!

~~~
znt
Actually getting rejected by women and getting blown out of "sets" on purpose
is a well known PUA practice to handle fear of rejection. I remember reading
about it 4 years ago or so.

------
Jun8
Here's a much better analysis of this phenomenon:
<http://plus.maths.org/issue51/features/rey/index.html>, even deriving a
mathematical model.

I think the same kind of thing holds true for attractive ideas as well: For
ideas with killer potential, people tend to say "Oh, somebody surely must have
implemented it, is looking into it", etc.) and not to push on. Until someone
either ignorant of the idealand layout or too dogged to care takes it on and
becomes successful. The history of the Valley has many examples of this
pattern.

~~~
acgourley
Can you list some of the examples? I actually personally find that instinct to
be true in almost all cases, but would be happy to be wrong about it.

~~~
Jun8
I think the examples fall into two categories:

* There's an obviously good idea, people have tried it and "proved" that it cannot be done. Then somebody ignorant of this fact goes ahead and does it anyway. A famous example of this is Spencer Silver of 3M inventing the adhesive for the Post-It notes. He is quoted to say "If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The literature was full of examples that said you can't do this."

* There's a good idea, others have implemented it with modest success. Then somebody comes along and blows it out of the water. Best example I can think of for this is the iPod. MP3 players were common before Apple, so it wasn't a new idea. Yet, they re-invented it in so many ways. Another example is, of course, Google, going against established search portals when they came about.

------
MrFlibble
I once worked with a Teamster who didn't give a damn who you were (or how
important for that matter). He just spoke his mind. Working on films, he would
regularly have lunch with producers, actors, studio heads, you name it. He'd
plop down at a table wherever & just eat his lunch & chat with whoever was
there. Result? He could walk up to the "untouchables" on most shows & ask
about their kids, chat about a vacation, even occasionally talk about
politics. He even helped defuse a disgruntled actor one day by simply asking,
"hey, what the hell's the matter?" and letting him vent (much to the dismay of
the cowering producers).

On a personal note, I befriended a power broker several years ago while
discussing art. We had a lot to talk about. Now years later we still talk &
email fairly regularly & grab lunch when in the same town.

Stop thinking of people as who they are or what they represent, just treat
them like normal folks & you'll be surprised who you might befriend.

~~~
nikster
Great post. I've been wanting to say something like that, but got distracted.

There is a truth, and two fallacies in the article. The truth is that the hot
girl effect exists. Fallacies: #1 - It is automatically desirable to talk to
the hot girl and the CEO, more so than to other people. It may be, it may not
be, who knows. This is an implicit assumption in the article. #2 - That you
therefore have to make an effort to talk to these people.

All three really are about the Ego and its trying to justify its existence by
making itself important. Talking to hot girl / CEO - Ego gratification.
Getting shot down - blow to the Ego. Fear of getting shot down - fear of the
Ego losing its importance. If you looked at your own Ego as an entity all of
its own, it is literally the fear of death.

Now with the hot girl situation you have two possible outcomes: Talk to hot
girl; or avoid it. Both means you lose and both mean the ego wins. In talking
to her, you "made" it and can feel proud; in avoiding, you've avoided being
shot down and also "made" it. It's a lose-lose situation.

The best reaction that I know is to observe the ego forces within yourself -
independent of your action.

Any time you feel superior, or inferior, to any other person, it's just the
Ego talking. You can't stop this but you can observe it, realize it is so, and
thereby overcome it. Personally when I have these moments I then just relax
within myself and do what I like. I am happier and I am also meeting more
interesting people.

"Stop thinking of people as who they are or what they represent" - exactly.

------
espadagroup
I'm going to go ahead and say that "the hot girl effect" is not true, at least
for women. The hotter you are the more you'll get hit on, guaranteed.

Which leaves the theory behind this interaction up for grabs :)

~~~
mindcrime
There are a lot of variables in play, and I really have no idea if this holds
up for any particular woman or not. But as a guy, who spends a lot of time
talking to other guys about approaching / meeting / dating women, I can
definitely say that - in my experience - there is absolutely an "intimidation"
effect where men will avoid the hotter women because they assume that:

A. "she's out of my league and wouldn't be interested."

B. "she is that hot, she probably gets hit on all the time and is therefore
probably snooty / bitchy towards strange guys."

C. "she can have any guy she wants, so surely she's dating some bigshot
executive with a rolls-royce and a private jet... no point in little ole me
going over and talking to her."

D. "etc."

Not saying that all guys do this, or that all guys do it in all situations,
but there is something plausible about this.

~~~
nikster
[From my single days] I'd generally want to get laid. So women that show
absolutely no interest are great - no time wasted. Women that want to f... you
right there in the bathroom are also great, but rare. Women that are nice and
hot are great. But women that just string you along for whatever reason,
they're your enemy - you waste all that time, and you get nothing for it. Had
many of those experiences as it's sometimes very hard to tell which is which.
US women in my not-statistically-significant experience were the worst.
Europeans, South Americans, Asians, all more real and less likely to string
guys along.

So in hindsight I think the most important skill is to cut losses early. Or as
one womanizing friend told me - the skill is not to convince a girl who
doesn't want to to sleep with you - that's not gonna happen; the skill is to
spot those that are looking for sex tonight.

------
alanthonyc
From the article: _"Once a girl passes a certain degree of hotness, the amount
of guys hitting on her drops dramatically."_

However, I know of a different version. If (as a guy) you are seen to date a
hot girl, then the chances of you dating other hot girls goes up. They want to
know what you've got.

I'm guessing this applies to VC as well.

~~~
nikster
Absolutely true. Wait until you get married - suddenly chicks hit on you all
the time. It's like... WTF?

Just two days ago, I sit in an outdoors bar, all alone, and order a beer. Now
the other rule is that if you're all by yourself, nobody will approach you
because you might be weird. Two hot girls sit down on the next table. And
every time I look over, one of them gives me the biggest "please come over to
talk to me right NOW" smile I have ever seen. As I am waiting for my wife. No
regrets of course - I love my wife. But I am wondering: Where WERE you girls
when I was single?

~~~
FooBarWidget
How do those girls know you're married?

~~~
LiveTheDream
Wedding band.

------
simonw
This reflects something I've noticed at some conferences: the keynote speaker
is often alone in the bar afterwards, looking bored because no one gets up the
nerve to talk to them.

~~~
cperciva
That sometimes happens, but often keynote speakers are left alone because
nobody's interested in talking to them. Keynotes speakers are often prominent
individuals from outside the narrow field of the conference, and often wildly
misjudge what conference attendees will be interested in hearing about.

------
blahblahblah
Apples and oranges. Yes, there is a "hot girl effect", but it really only
applies to hot girls. People who are at the top of their fields may be
friendly, but they are, by virtue of being at the top of their field,
generally very busy people. Sure, they're approachable, but you can't really
expect to have more than a small slice of their time unless the ideas you are
bringing to the table are of significant interest to them. The CEO or top
scientist is inherently busy or they wouldn't be in their position. A hot
girl, by contrast, is no more or less likely than anyone else to have a full
calendar. Hot girls don't automatically lose their hotness by living a
relaxed, unstructured lifestyle.

------
xenophanes
People like similar people. They have more in common. Relationships between
similar status people end up happiest and work out the best, on average.

That doesn't mean people always hit on those of equal attractiveness alone. If
you have more money than the girl, then she can have more prettiness. But if
she's way ahead on looks, you better be way ahead on money or something or it
isn't an equal relationship.

What does this add up to? Simply: the edge of the bell curve is always lonely.

------
sjtgraham
I have to disagree with this. I've seen the exact opposite many times, e.g.
Dave McClure at the TechHub Xmas party, the poor guy was absolutely mobbed.

I thought this post was going to be about something different altogether, so I
wrote it myself:

[http://blog.shrewple.com/post/2520650113/the-real-hot-
girl-e...](http://blog.shrewple.com/post/2520650113/the-real-hot-girl-effect-
and-networking)

------
CallMeV
I believe I first encountered the description of this phenomenon in one of
Leil Lowndes' books, "How To Talk To Anyone" IIRC.

And I encountered the phenomenon IRL a good few years back at a convention,
where I had a really nice conversation with an actress who played a major role
in a prominent SF series. Apparently, I was one of a few people who'd even
just stopped to ask her how she was enjoying the show: everyone else was
either staff, stewards or fanbois who only wanted her autograph, photo or
both.

I got to sit with her and her retinue later that night in the hotel
restaurant: a dinner date I'll never forget.

The Hot Girl effect is pretty real. And if you can get past that barrier of
your own fears to approach the unapproachable, yet retain your humility as you
do so, the rewards can often be awesome and memorable.

------
kungfooey
Is this for real? Is there any science to support the anecdotal experience of
"the hot girl effect"?

~~~
losvedir
OKCupid does interesting analyses of their user data. Here's a post looking at
the impact of attractiveness on messaging rates
([http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-
dati...](http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/)).
Looks like, at least for their users, the "hot girl effect" is not real; the
more attractive the girl, the lower the probability of a successful response.

~~~
smokinn
The problem with OKCupid rejection is that rejection is not real.

You can easily spam out messages to all the hot girls and "rejection" is
really a non-reply. Meaning that "rejection" is invisible.

In real life rejection means a "walk of shame" away from the girl, probably
while your friends are watching, probably while they're laughing at you.
OkCupid incorporates none of that.

------
danenania
In my opinion the real problem is this creepy glorification of people for
their looks or social status.

Guys who are obsessed with dating hot girls are really just obsessed with how
others perceive them, which makes them lame to be around. Same with social
climbers.

------
joe_the_user
A corollary to this that I've heard from the sales end, is that one actually
doesn't want to "pump buying temperature" to maximum.

The argument I've heard is that it's more effective to sell someone on you or
your product being _appealing yet practical_ rather than convincing them that
you or your product are the hottest thing on the planet (but there's always
the "expensive decoy product" mentioned in the link yesterday).

This is generalization too, of course, but it seems reasonable.

------
ojbyrne
It seems like it would be a confounding factor if said hot girl had a
reputation as evil incarnate, as does Goldman-Sachs.

------
DanielBMarkham
Reminder: if you try to become friends with someone for any other reason
besides you're a friendly person and like meeting people? They're going to
figure you out eventually.

So instead of "targeting" people, I'd just hang out at the right places and
get to know folks in general.

------
maeon3
Hot girls get hit on and proposed to several times a day by eager men. That
translates to about 100 times a month and 1200 times a yar. If you don't
believe me go ask one. Especially Programmer girls.

