
Dune, 50 years on - Tycho
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/03/dune-50-years-on-science-fiction-novel-world
======
iwwr
Dune is a fine work and stands on its own pretty well, but Kunzru gets fixated
on the first one and misses out on the depth of the latter books. The first 3
(including Dune) explore the Muad'Dib's rise to power and his new imperial
system, book 4 is his son's very long reign and books 5-6 explore the
dissolution of that system over the centuries. The story arc spans thousands
of years. The central theme as I'd see it is the domination of humans by
'oracles' \-- creatures with access to resources that dominate by both
predicting and shaping the future.

Paul Atreides is not merely a "white man who fulfils a persistent colonial
fantasy", he didn't arrive in a vacuum. Fremen culture has been shaped by the
oracles, their religion, traditions and prophecies were planted to suit the
aims of the oracles. Paul recognized first that Dune is not merely a central
position worth holding, but _the_ source of power in that universe, control
over Dune means control over the universe. So it's very much a story of
hydraulic despotism, of the natural resource curse. How do you break the
curse? Herbert's answer is 'technology'. Technology created the problem but
it's also ultimately the solution.

~~~
Flenser
> he central theme as I'd see it is the domination of humans by 'oracles'

That is exactly what Herbert set out to write. In his own words:

> I conceived of a long novel, the whole trilogy as one book about the
> messianic convulsions that periodically overtake us. Demagogues, fanatics,
> con-game artists, the innocent and the not-so-innocent bystanders-all were
> to have a part in the drama. This grows from my theory that superheroes are
> disastrous for humankind. Even if we find a real hero (whatever-or whoever-
> that may be), eventually fallible mortals take over the power structure that
> always comes into being around such a leader.

> Heroes are painful, superheroes are a catastrophe. The mistakes of
> superheroes involve too many of us in disaster.

From Dune Genesis by Frank Herbert:

[http://moodleshare.org/mod/page/view.php?id=2453](http://moodleshare.org/mod/page/view.php?id=2453)

------
JoshTriplett
I thoroughly enjoyed Dune. It had an interesting story, set in an even more
interesting world.

However, it's also the kind of book that should never have had a sequel; other
books in the series not only don't measure up, but actively undermine what
made the original interesting. It's possible that other good stories could
have been written in that universe, but they weren't. I highly recommend
reading _only_ the original.

~~~
brandonmenc
> it's also the kind of book that should never have had a sequel

The first two books are meant to be read as one. I recommend, _at minimum_ ,
Dune and Dune Messiah.

~~~
MarcScott
I agree. A little like the Ender's Game series. The first two are great, and
the rest seem a little like nothing more than a revenue source.

Obligatory XKCD link - [https://xkcd.com/304/](https://xkcd.com/304/)

~~~
jeffwass
Am I the only one who didn't like Speaker for the Dead? To me it felt like a
big let down after Ender's Game.

~~~
grogenaut
You'll like the "Shadow" books then.

Enders game is a space battle thriller with a great twist.

Speaker is all about what do you consider "human" and what do you consider
"alien". It was very mind expanding when I was 14.

~~~
reagency
The alien-vs-human issue was covered in the beginning setup and then the end
of ender's game, when ender realized what he had done. Do you need a whole
other book to drive the point home?

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ableal
The writer missed one of the most interesting points of the Dune future
history: it is one that rejected machine intelligence, and relies only on
human abilities (however augmented by training, drugs and mystical
handwaving).

The original Dune books mentioned, as part of the past, a war against AIs
called the Butlerian Jihad, which humans somehow won. Frank Herbert's son
later wrote it up in three prequel books.

This is very much against the grain of 1960s and later SF, which, when not
ignoring the issue, largely developed into a range of AI friendly views going
from blithely assuming machine submission (most SF) up to admitting that
humans would be the amusing pets of AIs (e.g. Iain M. Banks and Neal Asher).

On the hostile side, there were dystopian stories that posited human
persecution and extermination by machines, but I can't remember off-hand
another major SF setting where AI was achieved and beaten back.

~~~
jon-wood
The shunning of computers is probably the aspect I found most interesting at
first. Are the Butlerian Jihad books actually any good? I'd love to read more
about it, but I don't want to ruin my love of the universe with some shoddy
fan fiction, even if it is written by Herbert's son.

~~~
tunap
I read one BH/KJA book and it's name/content is not worthy of recollection.
Horrible, fourth grade reading level stuff, IMO.

The Butlerian Jihad was very intriguing to me, as well. As a youth I found it
hard to imagine such extremes that would bring about such a rejection of
technology and it's benefits. At 45yo, however, I find the drawbacks of modern
systems have become too 'costly' to my person and am embarking upon my own
cleansing of over-bearing, insinuating devices in my life. Cupertino, Redmond
or Mt. View(any Corp, for that matter) will never be allowed to become my
masters, my moocher bff nor my nanny beyond a static, transactional
relationship. Despite what the marketeers would have me believe, they are
doing me no favors entrenching further dependence to their systems. Long live
the fighters!

~~~
walterbell
> _the drawbacks of modern systems have become too 'costly'_

In terms of distraction, privacy, nudging or something else?

> _cleansing of over-bearing, insinuating devices in my life_

Are you eliminating apps which send data to 3rd-parties, with something like
ownCloud or Synology?

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contingencies
For the kids: though technically the RTS genre existed earlier in one or two
games, it was essentially nearly singlehandedly popularized by _Dune II: The
Building of a Dynasty_. The graphics and sound, probably inspired by the
Amiga, were awesome in the era! So many elements of modern RTS were already
present: multiple civilizations, each with specialist unit types. Level-
oriented progression. Resource harvesting. Terrain types. Unit speed as a key
differentiator. High level weapons with the capacity for massive remote
destruction. NPCs on the map. See the intro video on Youtube @
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4sj2Rf1RFg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4sj2Rf1RFg)

~~~
ekianjo
Erm. Let's not forget Dune the adventure game by Cryo as well, which was some
kind of Adventure game mixed with real time strategy in the later parts of the
game. Very well done.

~~~
gommm
Yes, it's the highlight of Cryo's output. Everything from this game is great
from the music by Stephane Picq to the mixture of adventure game, trading and
strategy.

Lost Eden follows a similar concept but it's nowhere as good.

Dune 2 by Westwood which came out around the same time was also very
innovative for the time and is really the father of all RTS.

~~~
ekianjo
Yeah, Picq even made a music CD based on his music from Dune, and it's really
good.

~~~
gommm
Yep, he released it on soundcloud by the way: [https://soundcloud.com/st-
phane-picq](https://soundcloud.com/st-phane-picq)

------
octygen
Dune and the Foundation series are by far my favorite SF series. The reason?
Both have unparalleled universe depth. To today I still recite the Dune fear
prayer to myself once in a while, I still think about how the Foundationeers
used technology as a means to control the Galaxy after the fall of the Empire,
I still think of spice as several natural resources on Earth today, etc.

I believe all the books in the Dune series are valuable and even enjoyed the
prequels since they gave a background to the story that was just lightly
touched in the originals. For me, they completed the Universe and helped me
answer the "Why did they do/think...?"

P.S. The Dune 1 game also ruled! It was the first game on my 486 and boy did
it help me get a lot of ladies :)

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dejv
Dune was first scifi book I read at age of 12 and reread couple of times.
Other scifi of the era was all about spaceships, colonies and what so ever. I
still love these classics from gold era of sci-fi, but Dune is different, it
is still relevant and don't age at all.

It is all about "religion" fundamentalism, movement/revolution creation and
philosophy. Really great book, highly recommend.

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kepano
Y'all have seen Jodorowsky's Dune, right? This documentary changed my life:

[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1935156/reference](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1935156/reference)

~~~
rdtsc
I saw that movie, I thought it was very good.

Just curious, what did you like about it that it changed your life. Did you
mean the how it was shot (i.e. impressed by director's work), Jodorowsky as a
person, his story how he worked on Dune with other people (the complexity,
dedication, the obsession), or Dune itself?

I found interesting how Dune influenced all these other blockbusters that came
after, most importantly Star Wars. It was also fascinating how Jodorowsky
never actually read Dune. EDIT: that is not correct as someone pointed out by
Nemcue, I (and others apparently) misremembered. It was both the financier,
Michel Seydoux and the illustrator Chris Foss who hadn't read it.

Or say, why anyone thought Jodorowsky, based on his previous track record of
making surrealist films, would be a good candidate to make Dune. I just don't
see the obvious connection from "Holly Mountain" to blockbuster "Sci Fi" for
the masses. Now, of course in a funny twist, David Lynch, another surrealist
author, actually made the American (Universal Studios) version, and it was
terrible I thought.

~~~
Nemcue
"It was also fascinating how Jodorowsky never actually read Dune."

It's so bizarre how people keep saying this, because you're far from being the
first; like you all fell asleep during the exact same segment.

He _did_ read the book. He clearly says so in the documentary.

He hadn't read the book before he got the go-ahead from the producer.

~~~
rdtsc
Thanks for pointing that out. I misremembered. Edited my comment accordingly.

------
isoos
Those who want to learn more about Dune and Frank Herbert, I strongly suggest
to read Tim O'Reilly's interview / autobiography book:

[http://www.oreilly.com/tim/herbert/](http://www.oreilly.com/tim/herbert/)

I am a long-time Dune fan, and this book and the background information it
provides makes me read it and Dune again, and again.

------
yeureka
Dune is one of my favourite books and I actually enjoyed David Lynch's film.

I would love to see a modern cinema adaptation, but with the current political
climate it might be impossible to make a movie about a messiah leading
religious fanatics on a jihad against an empire for control of the commodity
on which all civilization is dependent.

~~~
a8da6b0c91d
Most classic sci-fi is deeply anti-liberal. Liberal utopian stuff like Star
Trek is the exception. Dune is loaded with implicit acceptance of aristocracy
and religion.

~~~
ewzimm
Herbert said his whole point in writing Dune was to criticize the tendency of
people to rely on Messianic figures for salvation, to show how our reliance on
charismatic heroes and saviors can destroy us. Ironically, there's so much
propaganda in favor of these things in fiction that most people read his
criticisms as support. He also wanted to explore the idea that reading about
characters who operate with advanced levels of consciousness might inspire
readers to expand their own thinking, especially into thinking about long-term
consequences on our environment, to get people to think about living more
sustainably as neo-peasants, which he attempted to do himself. So the
characters are meant to be inspiring, but their flaws ar meant to be obvious
enough that we can avoid the mistakes they make while thinking more broadly
and surpassing them.

------
veli_joza
Another TV adaptation worth mentioning is SyFy's miniseries "Frank Herbert's
Dune" and "Frank Herbert's Children of Dune". They are much more faithful to
books than Lynch's movie and better show the epic universe that Herbert
imagined.

~~~
anotherevan
I really disliked the that Dune miniseries[1]. There was some really awful
acting and very cheap looking sets through a lot of it.

I also thought they got the tone of Paul's character completely wrong. To me
he came across starting off as an arrogant thug whereas my perception of him
from the books was a very thoughtful if not perhaps demonstratively emotive
young man. (Obviously subjective viewpoint, but it put me off right from the
start.)

OTOH, the audiobook produced by Audible I thought was very good. I've probably
read the book four or five times, the last time well over a decade ago. I
listened to the audiobook recently and really enjoyed it and reminded me how
much I liked the first book[2].

[1] Have not seen the Children of Dune miniseries.

[2] I'm in the "first book was good, the rest was crap" camp. I read through
'til about halfway through Heretics of Dune before asking myself why I was
still reading and stopped.

~~~
aikah
I took it as "filmed theater" rather than a movie. Aside from William Hurt,
all actors are playing their roles, not "acting". So if you see it that way
it's enjoyable. Everything is theatric, from the costumes to the dialogs, it
doesn't really feel like a movie at all.

I prefer this to Lynch's film which has great costumes and design but you
can't tell Dune in less than 2 hours, like one cannot tell lord of the rings
in one movie.

However,there is certainly room for a real trilogy movie. I'm sure it will
happen in the next 10 years.

------
brudgers
_Dune_ shared the 1965 Hugo for Best Novel with Roger Zelazny's _This
Immortal_...which says something about how good Zelazny's work is despite its
relative obscurity (compared with Dune).

~~~
100k
This Immortal is terrific. And Zelazany in general. Dune and Lord of Light
([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light))
are a few of the only SF books I re-read on a regular basis.

~~~
Pamar
Seconded - Lord of Light is really awesome (and just as politically nuanced as
Dune, but with better characters, IMO)

~~~
saalweachter
No love for Creatures of Light and Darkness?

~~~
Pamar
Well, I read both, but LoL made a bigger impression on me.

To be honest I found CoLaD too much "experimentalist" for my taste (I read
both when I was much younger, so it probably went over my head, while LoL I
reread and enjoyed through subsequently rereadings).

------
proofofconcept
I've heard people say they find inspiration in the Litany Against Fear (Fear
is the mind-killer...) but I prefer the stripped-down version introduced in
the 5th sequel: "Face your fears or they will climb over your back."

------
klunger
I thought it odd that the article did not mention the SciFi mini-series Dune
and Children of Dune that came out a while back [1][2]. These were actually
quite good, much better than the David Lynch version.

[1]
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0142032/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0142032/)
[2]
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0287839/?ref_=tt_rec_tt](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0287839/?ref_=tt_rec_tt)

~~~
aaronem
I haven't seen the second, but the first was...unfortunate in its casting, I
suppose; it got everything else pretty much right, but the performances were
so leaden that I've only been able to watch it the once.

~~~
klunger
Yeah, fair. The second one was much, much better.

------
jhallenworld
Check out the Destination: Void series (but start with The Jesus Incident).
Inspiration for Avatar and similar.

------
rodgerd
"If The Lord of the Rings is about the rise of fascism and the trauma of the
second world war" \- well, no it isn't.

"Actually, the great Dune film did get made. Its name is Star Wars."

This would be a better essay if I could take it seriously.

------
camperman
"If The Lord of the Rings is about the rise of fascism and the trauma of the
second world war,"

Which it isn't, as Tolkien makes clear in the foreward.

~~~
revscat
I'm not sure I agree with Tolkien on this front. Yes, I know: I'm disagreeing
with an author's assessment of his own work.

But authors are necessarily a part of their environment. It is -- literally --
inescapable. The good Professor was directly involved in the first World War,
and the second was at his doorstep. His aversion to modernity could have led
to him simply denying a a conscious connection between those real world epics
and those created by his own mind.

But the works themselves put doubt to his claim. If we take him only at his
word, and stop there, then that is the end of it. But if we recognize the
imperfect ways we self-assess, well...

~~~
ende
What Tolkien was largely dismissing is the notion that his world was a direct
allegory. He readily acknowledges that the comraderie and sacrifice he
experienced in the trenches of WWI manifests itself in Frodo and his
companions, as well as the doomed but defiant determination of the people of
England/Gondor in the face of assured destruction, etc. So there are themes
that bind the two worlds but he was adamantntly dismissive of any direct
mappings (ie Germany as Mordoe or whatever).

Really LotR is about mortality and power.

~~~
ajslater
I believe Tolkien directly said it was about mortality, and that power was a
sideshow to move the plot along.

The power of the ring is primarily to delay the inevitable and it corrupts all
who cannot accept that.

------
swagv
I enjoyed Dune, but it has much to do with software/hacking as installing a
kitchen garbage disposal.

------
bigohk
It is interesting indeed but the best Sci Fi fiction work in my view is
Hyperion.

