
John Dee and the occult in California - mr_tyzic
http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2014/05/29/wizards-of-the-coast/
======
TeMPOraL
So that's the Dee from cstross's quote:

" _for iterator count from zero to number of entropy sinks within ground
state, hear ye, hear ye, I open the gates of starry time for ye that you may
feel the ground beneath your feet and the air upon your skin; I invoke the
method of Dee and the constructor of Pthagn, forever exit and collect all the
garbage, amen._ "

(from
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fuller_Memorandum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fuller_Memorandum))

~~~
walterbell
Like Bob Howard, Dee knew a bit about math & hiding secrets a.k.a. crypto.

[http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/tech_journals/john_dee...](http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/tech_journals/john_dee.pdf)

------
Alex3917
> Dimethyltryptamine [is] the reason people lick the backs of Mexican toads to
> get high.

Not correct, Colorado river toads have 5-MeO-DMT, not DMT. Confusing the two
could easily be deadly.

~~~
benbreen
Very true, and licking the toads can also deliver cardiotoxins (people who
really, really want to harvest the 5-MeO-DMT from them apparently "milk" their
glands and then smoke it, which sounds like more trouble than it's worth).
Sorry for the mistake on my part - I should have looked into that one more.

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ryan33
I don't particularly like the OTO because of the distortion of Enlightenment
Era groups and Freemasonry. Crowley and some of the esoteric philosophies are
interesting but there's not many concrete ideas there.

John Fleming wrote a great book related to this called _The Dark Side of the
Enlightenment: Wizards, Alchemists, and Spiritual Seekers in the Age of
Reason_.

There's a distinction between Freemasonry, philosophy, and DMT; and the
speculative ideas of John Dee, the OTO and mystical reasoning. A lot of the
most fascinating things are polluted with ridiculous claims and beliefs.

~~~
benbreen
Fleming on the Dark Side of the Enlightenment is great, I agree. But I
wouldn't say his book is trying to separate the dross of ridiculous belief
from the gold of "true" science or philosophy. What I take away from that book
is a to me more interesting claim that Enlightenment ideals and methods have
always been entangled with varieties of magical beliefs, be they utopian
idealism or alchemy or (in a contemporary context) transhumanism. I wrote
about this at more length in an article about the history of drugs that
appeared in Aeon magazine a few months ago, if you're interested:
[http://aeon.co/magazine/altered-states/yesterdays-drugs-
are-...](http://aeon.co/magazine/altered-states/yesterdays-drugs-are-
tomorrows-medicines/)

~~~
dang
Welcome to HN, by the way!

Aeon and The Appendix have both been sources of some excellent posts here.
We'd like to see more such material—the more in-depth, the better. I'm excited
to see what you do with The Appendix. There's a crying need for more
substantive general-interest articles online.

HN has a largely technical orientation, but its mandate is for intellectual
diversity and we're a little low on historical nutrients these days.

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anigbrowl
I hope this was horribly mangled by some chthonian sub-editor, because I hate
to think that this rambling disconnected potpourri is considered acceptable
output from a PhD candidate as the bio claims.

~~~
benbreen
As the PhD candidate in question, I would have to agree that it is rambling -
but I hope you wait to read my actual dissertation before judging my scholarly
output as a whole!

I should also add that I have no connection to the O.T.O. or any similar group
(and speaking frankly, I find all such contemporary occult groups to be
faintly silly). But I do think their intellectual genealogy is super
interesting.

~~~
anigbrowl
It's a great subject, which I think is why I was so disappointed in the
article. I was looking forward to a few thousand words on the odd modern
history of alchemy and its continuing allure, but I really feel you tried to
pour a quart into a pint pot here. I would be _delighted_ to read a scholarly
dissertation on this or a tangentially related topic.

~~~
benbreen
My dissertation is actually about the origins of the drug trade, but I think
you'd be interested in the journalist George Pendle's Parsons biography,
Strange Angel, which I think does a great job of teasing out what alchemy
meant for 1940s practitioners: [http://www.amazon.com/Strange-Angel-
Otherworldly-Scientist-W...](http://www.amazon.com/Strange-Angel-Otherworldly-
Scientist-Whiteside/dp/0156031795)

I also touch on the topic a bit (albeit from the perspective of the history of
medicine) in the Aeon article that I link to further down in the comments,
although that's also aimed at more of a popular audience. Another person who
you might find interesting is Pamela H. Smith of Columbia University, who's
actually recreating an early modern alchemical lab there as we speak.

~~~
anigbrowl
Thanks, I will look into Pamela Smith's work - I was already familiar with
George Parsons, and in fact there was an interesting thread on here about that
a few weeks ago.

Your dissertation sounds just as interesting, I'd like to read it when it's
done. I'm going to read your _Perspecties_ article on it this evening.

------
minimaxir
For clarification, this article is unrelated to the well-known gaming company
Wizards of the Coast:
[http://company.wizards.com/](http://company.wizards.com/)

~~~
vorg
Another clarification: _the Philosopher’s Stone_ may be known by Americans as
_the Sorcerer 's Stone_. The US publishers of the first Harry Potter book
thought American children wouldn't want to buy and read a book with the word
"philosopher" in the title, and so renamed it to suggest magic and instant
gratification, rather than thought or learning.

------
h1karu
What does this have to do with technology or "hackers" ? Real wizards code in
Lisp.

~~~
kefka
The history of Queen Elizabeth's court astrologer, John Dee is a very
interesting chap.

He was well versed in Western Astrology, as well as the joint creator of a
symbolic magic called Enochian Magic. He was also considered as Elizabeth's
spy.

For what there is in the occult, I really am surprised that more
technologically minded people don't dabble. Things like Chaos Magic and the
like are well suited for applying scientific method to the esoteric.

~~~
h1karu
I suppose what I mean is that I don't think it's fair that fundamentalist
christians don't get to post on HN about how they have a savior who performs
miracles but yet it's relatively socially acceptable to have posts about
"Magic" which is a reference to the same type of thing as miracles but yet
it's considered "esoteric" instead of "religious" and is therefor socially
acceptable. I mean lets not forget that with the discussion of Dee and Kelly
we ARE talking about the scrying of the same Archangels from the old
testament, so in some way it is related to the abrahamic religions. That's why
I don't see why it gets a special category instead of being labeled
'religious'

~~~
nwatson
Fundamentalist Christians are still seen in the U.S. as the "oppressing
majority" that want to impose their belief system on others or want at least
to make others feel bad for not adhering to their beliefs or not conforming to
their moral code. This view is outdated.

The Evangelical+Fundamentalist Christians had their latest political and
cultural heyday in the 1980's with the "Moral Majority" movement. They've been
in steady decline since, with the book "The Great Evangelical Recession"
([http://www.amazon.com/Great-Evangelical-Recession-The-
Americ...](http://www.amazon.com/Great-Evangelical-Recession-The-
American/dp/0801014832)) arguing that the U.S. population can count only
between 7% and 9% as part of the "true believer" Evangelical or Fundamental
Christian set. The other 30% to 50% that loosely associate themselves with
Christian churches have only limited knowledge of what Christianity teaches.

Politicians, advertisers, tastemakers all are slowly realizing this declining
influence and focus of Christian groups. Many "free thinking" folks though
still see Fundamentalist Christianity as the big bogey-man. Those dabbling in
the occult or most other religions are generally seen as interesting and as
having no agenda to impose moral beliefs, and so are much less threatening and
downright fun and interesting. The California occult even had raucous sex
parties, yay!

~~~
ianstallings
Doing any form of magic is political suicide in mainstream politics. You might
win a spot here and there but you will never have any pull in this country if
you practice magic.

~~~
kefka
And political aspirations tend to wither away when one starts working with the
occult.

You realize how significant and how insignificant one is. And as well, you
focus on the betterment of oneself and your environment. Political energy and
fervor seems at best tertiary. There are much more important things, like
finding oneself.

