
With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy - DiabloD3
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/08/windows-10-microsoft-blatantly-disregards-user-choice-and-privacy-deep-dive
======
0xmohit
Some highlights:

    
    
      Microsoft installed an app in users’ system trays advertising
      the free upgrade to Windows 10.
    
      Not satisfied, the company eventually made Windows 10 a
      recommended update so users receiving critical security updates
      were now also downloading an entirely new operating system onto
      their machines without their knowledge.
    

This is essentially equivalent to saying: _You 've been running whatever
version of Windows, but we'll trick you into installing Windows 10_.

    
    
      Specifically, when prompted with a Windows 10 update, if the
      user chose to decline it by hitting the ‘X’ in the upper right
      hand corner, Microsoft interpreted that as consent to download
      Windows 10.
    

_The previous trick didn 't work on all of you, so we'll go on to change the
default behavior of our dialog boxes in order to trick you into installing
Windows 10._

    
    
      By default, Windows 10 sends an unprecedented amount of usage
      data back to Microsoft, and the company claims most of it is to
      “personalize” the software by feeding it to the OS assistant
      called Cortana.
    
      And while users can opt-out of some of these settings, it is
      not a guarantee that your computer will stop talking to
      Microsoft’s servers.
    

This probably explains it all.

\--

Microsoft appears to have learnt a lot from LinkedIn [0].

[0]
[https://twitter.com/darylginn/status/590664399041519617](https://twitter.com/darylginn/status/590664399041519617)

~~~
plantocorp
As a Microsoft employee, this W10 force upgrade things is the single thing
that pisses me off the most by far... It goes against everything that we are
trying to promote/change. Sometimes I'm really wondering if we work for the
same company (I'm not in the Windows division). I feel like all the effort we
put in investing in open source, being more open, and just generally a more
empathic company is totally destroyed by this w10 fiasco.

~~~
hendersoon
I believe this famous comic said it best:

[http://www.bonkersworld.net/organizational-
charts/](http://www.bonkersworld.net/organizational-charts/)

For all Satya's promises, nothing _really_ changed.

~~~
thomasjudge
off topic, but on the Oracle one, "legal" should be "sales"

~~~
hendersoon
Assuming engineering was size X, sales would be 10X and legal 40X. Oracle
licensing and legal are unbelievable snakes.

------
jakebasile
I upgraded willingly so the deceptive upgrade practices, while deplorable,
didn't really affect me. What does affect me is that Microsoft refuses to let
me control my computer.

\- If you turn off Windows Defender Real Time Protection it explicitly tells
you "You can turn this off, but if it's off for a while we'll turn it back
on". It turns itself on upon next reboot, it seems.

\- You can't turn off Windows Update. It will always end up downloading new
updates.

\- Once an update is scheduled for a restart you can only delay a few times
and it will then force the restart.

\- You can't remove worthless apps like Microsoft Groove and OneDrive
integration.

\- They are continuing to try to weasel the Windows Store into my life by
buying up or forcing exclusives (games), with all the drawbacks of UWP.

Microsoft, I promise I know what I'm doing and the risks and benefits of each
action I want to perform. I own my hardware, I'd like to control the software
I licensed. I am well aware of other OS options and I use Linux & OS X often,
but neither can compare to the gaming library available on Windows which is my
primary use case for my desktop.

~~~
ghostly_s
Everything you've listed is addressable by enterprise users in an AD
environment. I.E., Microsoft's real customers. Using a copy of Windows 10 with
no Cortana, Auto-updates, Groove, or Windows Defender right now.

~~~
daveguy
Yes. If you want that control, all you have to do is buy a subscription [0].
$7 per month isn't that much to be able to control your own computer is it?
That's only $84 per year or $252 every 3 years -- it's practically a discount
for buying an upgrade every 3 years!

[0] [http://www.computerworld.com/article/2867542/microsoft-
touts...](http://www.computerworld.com/article/2867542/microsoft-touts-7-per-
user-monthly-pricing-for-windows-subscriptions.html)

~~~
_xander
It comes with Office365 too! I'd totally buy this for the added control over
home edition, but it looks like Microsoft only sells this license in bulk to
big businesses in my region. Then again...it turns out that you can upgrade to
enterprise without a valid key [1] and that there are no real penalties for
doing this [2]. So, shrug, I guess they don't want my money - and I'm not
going to use an OS that turns me into a mineable dataset.

[1] [http://www.howtogeek.com/250503/how-to-upgrade-to-
windows-10...](http://www.howtogeek.com/250503/how-to-upgrade-to-
windows-10-enterprise-without-reinstalling-windows/)

[2] [http://www.howtogeek.com/244678/you-dont-need-a-product-
key-...](http://www.howtogeek.com/244678/you-dont-need-a-product-key-to-
install-and-use-windows-10/)

~~~
cryptarch
Would you happen to have an up-to-date guide? The one you linked doesn't work
in a fresh Win10 Home VM.

~~~
_xander
I don't unfortunately and I haven't got around to trying it yet. If you (or
anyone else on HN) finds something that works, could you post the link here?

------
randiantech
Honest question here: Why tech community is so hard with Windows mandatory
updates, and kind of flexible with other companies? Maybe its just me, but the
ratio of posts and articles blaming Microsoft for this practice seems to be
disproportional. I mean, my Mac asked me 875 times about accepting something
about iTunes. No matter how many times i click on decline, it keeps appearing
there all the time. Same thing with Chrome: It got silently updated (just
figured it with last update that brought Material Design to the interface). If
avoiding updates to a system is kind of a user right, then it would be fair to
have an option to stop updates in cloud based systems as well (IE: My email
service).

~~~
ColinDabritz
Your Mac updates are indefinitely truly avoidable despite the constant
nagging. You declined 875 times, and you can decline 875 times more, and
forever after that.

Windows 10, in home edition, only lets you delay a limited time. There is a
finite amount of possible total time before windows will no longer operate
without applying the update. It will apply the updates on restart, or forcibly
restart your computer to apply them. This is not the case on any other OS that
I am aware of.

You are correct that Chrome applies updates when it is restarted, which is
similar, but subtly different behavior. Chrome does not destroy my running
context to forcibly restart. I've had the "red" about tag indicating
critically out of date for a few weeks on a laptop, with no issues.

[http://www.howtogeek.com/219166/you-won%E2%80%99t-be-able-
to...](http://www.howtogeek.com/219166/you-won%E2%80%99t-be-able-to-disable-
or-delay-windows-updates-on-windows-10-home/)

~~~
hendersoon
Yes; also Chrome is a browser not an operating system.

(I know, ChromeOS. That's not what I meant!)

------
S_A_P
Framed this way, I cant believe there is no class action lawsuit. I remember
my mother in law said she was being asked to upgrade from 8.1. She said she
didn't want to. I actually willingly installed win 10, and was across the
country. She then called me one day and said "windows 10 installed anyway and
I clicked the X to get out of it". At the time I just chalked it up to user
error, but thanks MS, now I owe my mother in law an apology.

~~~
jalami
IANAL, but it looks like when you agree to the Microsoft TOS you waive your
right to bring a Class Action suit against Microsoft

>Class action lawsuits, class-wide arbitrations, private attorney-general
actions, and any other proceeding where someone acts in a representative
capacity aren’t allowed. Nor is combining individual proceedings without the
consent of all parties.

I believe that's why companies are taking MS to small claims for $10,000
despite losing way more than that in downtime.

[0][https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/servicesagreement/](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/servicesagreement/)

~~~
ominous
If you read this, you agree to give me 2L of blood every 88 hours, as well as
a lock of your firstborn's hair.

I agreed to nothing.

~~~
jalami
SCOTUS seems to disagree with you[0][1]. I try to read or at least skim what I
agree to. Some companies have an opt-out of their binding arbitration (eg.
Ting), which I try to make use of, but most don't allow you to opt out of the
class action waiver.

If you don't like the terms, email them and tell the company why you won't
sign up. I rarely get a response, but someone on their staff knows there's at
least some push back.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepc...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepcion)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIRECTV,_Inc._v._Imburgia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIRECTV,_Inc._v._Imburgia)

------
native
Not shocking. I'm writing this out of my Ubuntu partition and I'm running
Windows 10, forced down my throat to begin with, and it just does what it
wants when it wants to. I've had times when I've gone for a break and my
laptop has rebooted and installing some updates I wasn't even aware of. And
I'm running Windows out of sheer necessity for the time being because I need
Illustrator, Photoshop, etc.. But Microsoft has really never cared for the
user, more like you'll get what we give you and like it.

~~~
wlesieutre
I was thinking of dual booting and relegating Windows to gaming, have you had
any trouble with your setup? Especially with Windows updates messing up the
boot settings or wiping partitions that they shouldn't?

Seems particularly risky now that MS is pushing out regular "major updates"
like the anniversary update, which get handled like a system reinstall.

~~~
kaybe
The only issue I had so far was that Mint wouldn't boot because Windows didn't
actually shut down as instructed but went into default quick-boot mode, which
made the Windows partition unmountable, which by default causes the Mint boot
to fail. No other problems so far.

I had some issues with UEFI during install as well, but it worked out somehow.

Also, it seems that you can still feed the Windows 10 installer a Windows 7
key. I wanted Windows 7 initially, but the computer wouldn't have it.

~~~
pritambaral
Did you set the Windows partition to automount in `/etc/fstab` in Mint?

That would make Mint think that that mount is part of the system, and since
the system isn't entirely available, the boot cannot proceed.

I suggest you add `nofail` to the mount options, and `nobootwait` on older
that Ubuntu-16.04-derived Mint (doesn't run systemd) and `x-systemd.device-
timeout=1` on Ubuntu-16.04+-derived Mint (should run systemd)

------
joonoro
The saddest part about it for me is that Windows 10 made some of my friends
cynical regarding privacy. If you asked them before they would have at least
acknowledged the value of privacy, but now it's just "Why not upgrade to
Windows 10? Everything you use is already data-mining you." They see all the
bad news about privacy in Windows 10 and I guess that's the only way you can
rationalize using it.

~~~
topranks
You make me feel bad about it but I find myself saying this kind of thing now.
It didn't start with Windows 10 tbh.

------
AdmiralAsshat
After the crap associated with the Anniversary Update, I decided to stop
threatening to move to Linux every time Microsoft made a consumer-hostile move
and just do it, in order to see how feasible the shift would be. Fedora has
been fine so far, sans a few hardware-specific issues I've run into. The
laptop is certainly better optimized for Windows, which is not surprising. I'm
trying to document all of the problems I've run into along the way and the
steps to remedy them, in case they are of value to anyone else. The Arch Linux
wiki has been great for this sort of thing, even without using Arch.

~~~
anonbanker
Congratulations on the switch. Ubuntu might be slightly superior to Fedora
(you'll outgrow it eventually), but again, congratulations on finally doing
so. If you get a whim to tinker, try a KDE-based distribution; it'll feel the
most like windows, just with more options to tweak.

------
jalami
I dual boot on my PC, Ubuntu and Windows. I'm writing this from my Arch
laptop. I only drop into Windows if I want to play a Windows-only game, but
thankfully that's happening less and less. I've stopped buying games for
Windows entirely so I won't have this problem in the future.

When I installed Windows10, I did the hour long dance of trying to find all
the places where I could turn off tracking, even temporarily. Then I ran
this[0] which does a pretty good job in a magic black box kind of way. It's a
patch job, I don't recommend using Windows10 as a daily driver or putting too
much faith into any gui setting or external patch.

Also updates are important. Software developers know maintaining multiple old
versions and backporting fixes is more art than science and even with the best
intentions is prone to incompleteness. Update your software. If you find you
can't because upstream is consistently invasive/lacking/gross, chose a
different project or you know... fork.

[0]:
[https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking](https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking)

------
helloworld
Maybe this can be read as a cautionary tale about how easy it is to convince
yourself to cut ethical corners when money is involved.

In an honest moment, I suspect that many Microsoft executives would
acknowledge that the behavior described here is morally dubious. Yet they've
allowed it to happen.

This reminds me that it's a daily challenge to avoid temptation and do the
right thing. I hope that at least a few people in Redmond are thinking the
same thing.

------
mark_l_watson
I think that Microsoft could fix this fairly easily: make an easy opt out for
Cortana and telemetry, offer more control over security options.

I totally sympathize with Microsoft for wanting everyone to be on Windows 10,
with continuous updates (security and otherwise). Better for them and long
term probably better for users.

I don't use OS X anymore but when I did, I liked always being at the latest
update.

Except for my iPad, I use Ubuntu Linux laptops and like keeping every device
up to date.

Pardon a tangent, but: society as a whole really needs a "going to the moon"
level global project to harden computing devices. As an end user of technology
I am willing to keep my devices up to date and I try to be understanding of
Apple, Microsft, and Ubuntu (and other Linud distros).

~~~
mitm2mitm
I wouldn't mind paying twice the price of Windows 10 Pro if I could select
what I want installed and the OS respected that. No telemetry, no Cortana, no
Windows Stores apps if I need to have a MS account. No missclick-based
features (you click yes and suddenly your local account is now an online
account).

Since I'm stuck with this crap forever (Adobe, Office, games, etc) at least
let me pay you not spy on me and install your crapware. And let ME control MY
PC.

~~~
M4v3R
You do know that both Adobe apps and Office apps are natively available for
Mac? Games are still a problem though, but you can dual-boot just for games.

~~~
mitm2mitm
Personally, I can't stand OSX.

Since running things on Wine or VM end it up being too much of a hassle,
Windows is my only option. I did that for a couple of years though.

------
Artlav
The saddest part is that no one cares and no one does anything.

No protests, no rotten tomatoes into MS manager faces, no uproars or boycotts,
not even pathetic stuff like lawsuits.

At best a few educated people complain on the internet or brag about moving to
Linux.

All this does is the evaporative cooling that hardens the cold death grip of a
blind company whose moral compass doesn't even point north around the necks of
the common folk that notice nothing and wonder why it's getting harder to
breath every other year.

And no, i'm not smart enough to come up with a solution either...

------
joering2
Microsoft paid $10k [1] to one single count of this deceiving practice and
decided to settle not to pursue further.

Me and my young children see Transvaginal Mesh Implants class action lawsuit
invitation few times a day for probably a year now on multitude of national TV
stations. When will some tech-literate lawyer start gathering evidence to file
a class action lawsuit over what MS just did??

[1] [http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/27/12046738/microsoft-
pays-10...](http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/27/12046738/microsoft-
pays-10k-over-windows-10-auto-update)

~~~
tobias3
The EULA you agree to during Windows 10 installation prohibits class action
lawsuits, but Windows 7 should be fair game...

~~~
jessaustin
I support some computers that auto-updated to 10, and everyone with access to
them _swears_ they never hit "OK" in the week leading up to that auto-update.
Did the EULA just flash up on the screen at 2 AM?

~~~
tobias3
I guess it reboots to Windows 10, but keeps the old installation in
"C:\Windows.old". If you then do not agree to the EULA in the Windows 10 setup
wizard it rolls back to your old Windows installation. Definitely a dark
pattern, because most users may feel that going back is not possible.

~~~
jessaustin
It took me a little while to identify which shared folders were necessary for
various programs used by this business. Having figured out how to re-share
those folders and confirmed that everything else was still working, however,
there wasn't a chance in hell I was going to roll the dice on a "restore"
operation. They had work to do that day.

------
quantos
This is the reason why i moved to linux. The path this "new" microsoft have
choosen, if they continue to do this, they will certainly lose their market
share on PCs in near future and I hope when users will start caring about
their rights and privacy, they will move to other OSes.

~~~
mitm2mitm
Let's be real, "they" won't. A select few might change to a mac, maybe a
chromebook, and that's it.

Developers are a case apart.

~~~
specialp
ChromeOS is just as bad with spying as Windows 10 (or worse considering how
much other information Google has to tie to you. Apple is well on their way to
making their upcoming OS similar as well. We live in a world now where most
people are conditioned NOT to pay for software, and don't mind being "the
product" for free services. For those that do mind being data mined there are
fewer and fewer options every day.

~~~
mitm2mitm
No shit. I was just trying to avoid the year of the linux desktop meme, since
I gave up on that already, while also doubting that "they" are going to ditch
Windows.

------
noblethrasher
I hate to say it, but a lot of this stuff was advocated by Butler Lampson (one
of heroes)[1].

Basically, he advocated for having at least two computers (which could be
virtual machines) labeled “red” and “green”. The red machine is promiscuous,
and accepts inputs from anything; whereas the green machine only accepts
inputs from “accountable” sources (n.b. this means it wouldn’t accept input
from the red machine).

Crucially, he says that the green machine, which might have access to
sensitive information such as your financial records, would _”require
professional management”_. The user might be able to make course grain
adjustments to qualify what it means to be an accountable source, but in this
scheme, the system’s integrity is only assured by allowing the professional
administrator to preempt the user.

I don’t like it (Win 8 will probably be the last version I use), but since
it’s Butler, I have to at least consider that he might be right.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJw2SZPjAfA&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJw2SZPjAfA&feature=youtu.be&t=2123)

------
Aldo_MX
I had to install Windows 8.1 from scratch recently, for the first time in my
life I had to review update-per-update what the f%$k did they do, it is
depressing that too many updates had something to do with Windows 10 or an
increase in telemetry...

    
    
      - KB2976978
      - KB3035583
      - KB3058168
      - KB3068708
      - KB3080149
      - KB3123862
      - KB3173040

~~~
hendersoon
Win7, 8, and 8.1 updates are moving to cumulative patches next month. Assuming
you still patch at all, you will be unable to avoid installing the telemetry
on older MS operating systems too.

I assume that like Win10, there will be ways to hack around and disable the
telemetry there. But you can't avoid installing it in the first place for
long.

------
joesmo
"But it’s a shame that Microsoft made users choose between having privacy and
security."

Great article, but this part is simply wrong. Microsoft chose to remove
_both_. You now have an operating system without security that is known to
steal data and install things on its own (malware). How can EFF say this OS is
more secure when Microsoft can and does access any data on the system at any
time without asking for permissions? When even the permissions dialogs are
fake? To classify this as anything but malware would be willful stupidity at
this point.

It's not that the OS has _less_ security, now it has _none_. In fact, users
running Windows 10 might want to question whether they even own their machines
anymore. Physical possession aside, when one no longer controls the software
or data on a machine can one be said to own said machine? Can one be held
responsible for what it does? What if Microsoft decides to download child porn
on everyone's machine? Considering what they've done in the last year, I
wouldn't put it past them.

------
maglavaitss
I guess people shouldn't be speaking while debating if <INSERT-CURRENT-YEAR>
is the year of the Linux desktop or not. The choices in life are usually (and
i emphasize usually) simple, and this case is no exception. You either discard
your privacy and maybe your security and go Windows, or you discard your
usability (for some) and go Linux. Or go Mac, FreeBSD, hell, even BeOS or Hurd
or whatever floats your boat.

But seeing people still bitching about how they can't go over Windows "because
I have to play games" well ... it hurts. It really hurts.

We should know better.

~~~
jakebasile
Gaming is my passion, my hobby, and by far my largest expense save mandatory
things such as my mortgage. I don't understand why this means that I cannot
say that Windows 10 is upsetting to me unless I give up a huge part of my
identity. It is an unfortunate situation from which there is little recourse
for people like me.

~~~
maglavaitss
I'm not saying people shouldn't play games, hell, I'm a gamer myself. But we
have to compromise in life, and when I fire up my Windows VM, I understand all
the implications that come out of it: I might get malware, I might get my
personal information sent to various sites, my OS might be upgraded to
NewWinOs or downgraded to OldCrappyOs automatically and so on.

And this is freaking unfortunate for everybody involved, except the big
companies like Microsoft, Google, FB, Apple, etc.

~~~
ionised
The solution is two separate machines. One Linux machine for all personal
computing and dev work, and a Windows machine with Steam on it, and anything
else game-related.

------
dman
I have lost work on Windows 10 because it doesnt seem possible to not have it
restart after an update. This behavior being a default from the Windows
"Professional Edition" boggles my mind.

~~~
jefe_
The automatic update restarts are the worst. Followed guide here and have not
come into work with a restarted computer since (used Method 3):
[http://www.redmondpie.com/disable-turn-off-automatic-
updates...](http://www.redmondpie.com/disable-turn-off-automatic-updates-in-
windows-10-heres-how/)

~~~
hendersoon
Option 1 on that link stops updates from running on their own, but once you
update you are forced to reboot. Also I had problems with that solution
causing stalling forever on "Installing updates 0%".

Option 2 is for hiding specific updates, like broken drivers. Doesn't really
apply.

Option 3 again will stop updates from installing in the first place, but will
not stop reboots once they're installed. Windows 10 completely ignores the "No
auto-restart with logged on users" policy from that same group.

The only way I have found to stop my computer from rebooting after installing
an update is #2 in the link below. This works, 100%.

[https://superuser.com/questions/973009/conclusively-stop-
wak...](https://superuser.com/questions/973009/conclusively-stop-wake-timers-
from-waking-windows-10-desktop/973029#973029)

------
shmerl
_> The Way Forward_

is to ditch Windows. You can't seriously expect MS to respect user choice and
privacy.

~~~
SixSigma
Except my work _relies_ on Autodesk which has Windows and Office as a
dependency.

I'm trapped

~~~
shmerl
Yeah, in such cases helping Wine supporting them can move things forward.

------
josteink
And to think that before this, people were angry at Microsoft for not
providing updates to new versions of Windows free of charge, and free of
hastle.

Damned if they do. Damned if they don't.

But now at least, they'll have a much smaller install base for ancient
versions of Windows, so my guess is that even with all this bad PR, it's going
to pay off.

------
laktak
Privacy issues aside, I can't actually trust Windows 10.

It shut down twice on me while I was working (to install a mandatory security
patch). This OS treats its users like kids who wouldn't know better.

~~~
supernovae
If you're a computer "Enthusiast" most of the time you know what's coming
(sites like winbeta and neowin post the news) or you would have known how to
set the restart time, accept/reject the action center notifications or
gracefully finished work to reboot because rebooting in windows only takes
about 5 seconds these days.

------
oolongCat
I recently had to install windows 10 on one of my computers. I remember
getting to a menu which asked me if I wanted to install the recommended way vs
customizing, selected custom and the number of options that could seriously
undermine my privacy were insane, a special ID to help 3rd parties (ms
certified partners or something they called it) WHAT THE HELL!!

Microsoft seriously sucks. Yes I know, the options to turn these things off
are there, but the fact that 90% of the people who use ms windows are not even
aware of these options is insane.

And couple that with the soul sucking updates,Jesus Christ windows 10 is just
a big no no.

As for the updates, you should seriously consider disabling the windows update
service using the admin privileges. Especially if you are using a rate limited
internet connection or hate having to wait 10-15 mins for your computer to
shutdown or startup.

------
beamatronic
I have one remaining Windows 7 license that I would like to set up on a new
machine. Is there no way to keep it untainted forever by Windows 10?

~~~
tdicola
They aren't doing the free upgrade to 10 offer anymore so you're probably
fine. I've been running a 7 instance in a VM for a long time and never had a
problem with it upgrading to 10.

~~~
tunap
Probably not fine...

Do not assume that the "Free" expiration stops them from loading 10 in all but
name & fugly menu on your back-end through 40+ supposed updates & patches. The
telemetry is what they are after, the telemetry is what they will go to almost
any length to collect and telemetry is all you are good for... at the moment.

------
scrupulusalbion
Honestly, having two computers has been the only way I can sanely function at
work. We have to use Windows for at least one application. My solution has
been to setup a second desktop (these are small towers), install Linux on it,
and remote into the Windows from the Linux machine. Oddly enough, I can
actually play some video games on the Windows machine through that remote
session.

We replace computers two to three times per year; I get to pick from generally
four-year old computers. I assume that a second computer is not an option for
most at work.

------
milankragujevic
Because of their (Microsoft's) bullshit with Windows 10 I had to switch my
family to Ubuntu and myself to OS X. Bye bye Microsoft, you won't have any
more of mine or my family's data...

------
JamesBaxter
I certainly agree that Microsoft have been very underhanded in some of their
approaches.

What really grinds my gears though is the lack of interest people have in
maintaining their tools. If your computer is central to running your business
you should be informed about upcoming updates as computer downtime is a threat
to your business.

------
Bitedge
Personally I will never by windows anything again. Unix all the way.

------
ryuuchin
Just for the record if you disabled the Windows 10 update properly[1] I'm
pretty sure it would never bother you and you could never accidentally install
it.

I'm not saying I approve of what Microsoft did with the W10 upgrade but if you
were technically competent to change a few registry/group policy options it
was never a problem for you.

[1] [https://support.microsoft.com/en-
us/kb/3080351](https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351)

------
ap22213
Does anyone know what MS does with this data? Is it just for ads?

~~~
overgryphon
It's for quality and personalization, not for ads. This is Terry Myerson's
blog explanation of data usage.

[https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2015/09/28/priva...](https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2015/09/28/privacy-
and-windows-10/)

~~~
hendersoon
That assumes you believe Microsoft, that they are not deliberately lying to
their customers. Not plausible? Microsoft claimed Skype has end-to-end
encryption, too.

[http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/12/newly-
published-n...](http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/12/newly-published-
nsa-documents-show-agency-could-grab-all-skype-traffic/)

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-
nsa-...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-
collaboration-user-data)

------
cptskippy

      By default, Windows 10 sends an unprecedented amount of
      usage data back to Microsoft... location data, text 
      input, voice input, touch input, webpages you visit, and 
      telemetry data regarding your general usage of your 
      computer, including which programs you run and for how long.
    

Unprecedented for Microsoft or everyone? This is inline with what Google
collects on Android.

    
    
      ...the fact remains that many users would much prefer to 
      opt out of these features in exchange for maintaining 
      their privacy.
    

Which they can do at any time, the initial setup permits opting out of almost
all of this.

    
    
      A significant issue is the telemetry data the company 
      receives. While Microsoft insists that it aggregates and 
      anonymizes this data, it hasn’t explained just how it 
      does so. Microsoft also won’t say how long this data is 
      retained, instead providing only general timeframes.
    

Microsoft has been doing this since Windows XP as do Apple, Google, and Amazon
for their respective OSes.

    
    
      Microsoft has tried to explain this lack of choice by 
      saying that Windows Update won’t function properly on 
      copies of the operating system with telemetry reporting 
      turned to its lowest level.
    

This is interesting because Windows 10 won't let you disable telemetry data
entirely which upsets people. But most people probably want updates and the
data necessary to determine which updates you've got installed on your
computer are considered telemetry data by Microsoft and that information is
essential in order to determine which updates are applicable or available. So
does the minimum setting in Windows 10 collect more telemetry data than is
necessary for Windows Update to function or not?

    
    
      But this is a false choice that is entirely of 
      Microsoft’s own creation. There’s no good reason why the 
      types of data Microsoft collects at each telemetry level 
      couldn’t be adjusted so that even at the lowest level of 
      telemetry collection, users could still benefit from 
      Windows Update and secure their machines from 
      vulnerabilities, without having to send back things like 
      app usage data or unique IDs like an IMEI number.
    

Did Microsoft actually say that the lowest level of telemetry data collection
includes that information? That sounds like an assumption.

    
    
      And if this wasn’t bad enough, Microsoft’s questionable 
      upgrade tactics of bundling Windows 10 into various 
      levels of security updates have also managed to lower 
      users’ trust in the necessity of security updates. Sadly, 
      this has led some people to forego security updates 
      entirely, meaning that there are users whose machines are 
      at risk of being attacked.
    

Right or wrong, this is what Apple, Google, and Amazon currently. Sure it's
nice to be able to look at each and every update to scrutinize what's going in
but very few people do that. If you've every looked at the updates in earlier
versions of Windows they're usually just KB numbers that you have to
copy/paste into a browser to see what they actually fix.

~~~
syshum
>>> Apple, Google, and Amazon currently

So in your world 2 wrongs make a right... because "everyone else" is doing it
is a justification for you?

See I was taught from a young age that just because my friends did something
incredibly stupid, illegal, or immoral that dis not give me license to commit
the offense.

~~~
cptskippy
So why aren't we complaining about this industry practice? It's purely focused
on MS.

~~~
hendersoon
Put simply, Apple and Google allow users to opt-out.

You can run Android and not send Google a single byte of information. You
can't run google's _apps_ and do that-- gmail, google calendar, the google
play store, and so on. But it isn't mandatory. Telemetry is in the apps, not
the OS.

Even if I set telemetry to "basic" (the lowest it will go), turn off Cortana,
and don't use IE or Edge (or any other MS app), Windows 10 sends telemetry to
Microsoft. That's not OK.

~~~
supernovae
Even if you opt out, you're still sending telemetry. Unless your telling me
your buying a smart phone and never installing an app. It takes telemetry for
apple store to check your system and see if your apps need updating. it takes
telemetry to check if your icloud is backed up. it takes telemetry to say "it
will take you 20 minutes to drive home" notifications that popup..

~~~
syshum
>>Unless your telling me your buying a smart phone and never installing an
app.

I have a smartphone that does not send info to google or apple.

Runs Andriod with no google account, no Google Services, and my app store is
FDriod not the play store.

You assumption that everyone that owns a smart phone is a icloud user or uses
the apple store is ridiculous

~~~
cptskippy
I wouldn't say it's ridiculous. The number of people who do what you do is
minuscule. The people with the technical ability and knowledge to do that is
also a very small subset of the population.

You can stand on your high horse and tell everyone they have a choice and to
not stand for such things but it's disingenuous at best. There are people out
there without the technical expertise or fundamental ability to obtain such
knowledge. There are people who are financially incapable of doing it as well.
You can spout off about how affordable it is but your phone probably cost them
a month's salary.

~~~
hendersoon
My statement was that the telemetry wasn't baked into the OS itself-- and it
isn't. It's in the programs you _run_ on the OS, so the user has agency. How
many users opt for the extreme inconvenience of turning off Google Play
Services and all the Google apps isn't really the point-- they _could_.

Windows telemetry is baked in the OS. I believe that is a fundamental
difference.

Also, I don't think it's disingenuous to say that users have different
expectations of mobile and desktop operating systems. Apple's iOS has always
sent basic telemetry; until recently Windows didn't.

Apple doesn't have a history of compromising users' privacy then lying about
it, unlike Microsoft with Skype.

And finally, while Apple is sending some telemetry, they are actually serious
about their users' privacy and are collecting data with a technical solution
that truly does guarantee anonymity.

[https://www.wired.com/2016/06/apples-differential-privacy-
co...](https://www.wired.com/2016/06/apples-differential-privacy-collecting-
data/)

~~~
cptskippy
What constitutes being baked in? Various components of Windows gather
telemetry data, the basic stuff is pulled by the Diagnostics Tracking Service
which can simple be disabled. Other things such as Office and Contana gather
in their own ways. That's no more baked in than Google Play Services is baked
into Android. The fundamental difference is that Windows isn't Open Source so
you can't go to a repo and pull down a clean version of it.

Windows has been sending telemetry data since XP.

Until recently Apple hasn't had much market share or scrutiny. We're starting
to see that change happening with new malware targeting MacOS showing up and
plenty of buggy software.

~~~
hendersoon
You can simply uninstall Google Play Services.

You can't uninstall the telemetry and tracking stuff. You need to disable
services, make changes to the registry, remove task scheduler entries, and
block access in your firewall to truly secure Win10.

Telemetry, previously called "Windows Customer Experience" or something
similar, in versions of windows earlier than 10 could easily be turned off.
Recently MS added the full-on Win10 style telemetry to Win7 and 8 too, but
that is a very recent development.

------
puddintane
I wonder if these moves will push more and more users to go down the pirating
path of the Enterprise edition.

------
bitmapbrother
Somewhat related - How to turn off Cortana

[http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-tip-turn-off-
cortana...](http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-tip-turn-off-cortana-
completely/)

------
gsmethells
They are trying to fix their fragmented OS version pie chart problem like it
was a fragged up Win 95 hard drive. Feels about as fun, too.

------
ape4
Microsoft let us turn off all the telemetry, Cortina, etc. Please. I don't
want to hate you.

------
hlfcoding
I clicked for a deep dive. Not what I expected.

------
finid
Folks, Microsoft blatantly disregarding user choice and privacy is not news.
What else do you expect from a company that ships at least one backdoor in
every software they've ever made?

If you understand the true nature of Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer, this should
never come as a surprise. It's going to take several generations for the
culture to change, that is, if ever...

------
altern8
The reality is that no one is going to adbandon Windows, no matter what
Microsoft do. Windows 8 is proof of that.

------
graycat
Gb abbreviates gigabit or gigabyte? What does GB abbreviate?

=====================

In update:

PLEASE stop down voting me for my simple, nice, courteous reminder to the
person who wrote the post I replied to.

I was NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT ignorant of the meanings of Gb versus GB and was NOT,
NOT, NOT, NOT asking for a tutorial on the difference. I am not an ignorant
newby on HN knowing too little to be posting here. Just what I did wrong is
beyond all obvious criteria.

These attacks are personal, based on my user name and some earlier posts of
mine?

I did NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING wrong.

Instead, I was suggesting that maybe the post I responded to was not using Gb
versus GB correctly -- MAYBE. I was trying to be subtle and suggesting that
the person just review the meanings of Gb versus GB. I DO know very, very well
the correct, accepted meanings the two abbreviations.

So, for trying to be nice, I get attacked? What kind of hostility is that?

MOD, please get involved and correct this.

Right, I'm a newby? I've published several peer-revewed papers of original
research in computer science and artificial intelligence and taught computer
science in graduate school at Ohio State University. I DO know quite a lot of
computing. Early in my career I designed and wrote the software that scheduled
the fleet at FedEx and literally saved the company -- pleased the BoD and
enabled crucial financing. My Ph.D. dissertation in engineering was in
software.

For one of my contributions in artificial intelligence at the IBM Watson lab,
I received an award from IBM. For some other research I did at IBM, I
reinvented k-D trees -- a few years earlier, and k-D trees would have been
mine.

MOD: I've done NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING wrong, but I've been severely
attacked. The attacks look personal, by paid propagandists attacking me for
some old post on some topic the propagandists are paid to fight about.

MOD: Please straighten out these attacks.

~~~
rdiddly
A downvote or even a hundred downvotes on HN is hardly worth getting upset
over. Remember how there's this whole world out there with women in it and
sunsets and grass and beer and stuff?

~~~
Neeek
Mmmm, beer.

------
Unbeliever69
Long since stopped using Windows...

[http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/29/295931841857280419b1d9f99759e...](http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/29/295931841857280419b1d9f99759e4731d0e1f4d16426d9a5d97c7b0713a111e.jpg)

------
whatareyoureal
Should have just branded it Windows 7 SP2. But I guess everyone expects MS to
support multiple branches of code forever.

These discussions always avoid talking about the merits of data-driven design
and always assume malicious intent.

~~~
sjm-lbm
If I buy a computer and/or pay Microsoft money, I think it's reasonable for me
to expect my computer to do what I'd like it to do (and only what I'd like it
to do). The problem isn't data-driven design, it's how the data is being
collected.

I'd be annoyed if my home builder occasionally came through my house while I
was gone in an attempt to analyze how I was arranging furniture and using my
space. They could, undoubtedly, use that data to better their future work -
but I'd still feel violated.

~~~
ghostly_s
I don't understand why you think you're entitled to that expectation. If you
don't like what Windows does, buy an OS from someone else.

~~~
sjm-lbm
I'm not saying that I'm entitled to an exception (and do use desktop Linux and
macOS in any situation that allows me such a choice, gaming and Office usage
being my primary barriers - and I'll leave aside whatever Apple may be doing
with my usage statistics there, which probabally isn't great).

Rather, the comment that I'm replying to infers that there is nothing wrong
with what Microsoft is doing because they are using all of this data for some
sort of Good Reason, and I personally think that their methods of data
collection are shady enough to make whatever good they may be doing with that
data irrelevant.

