
German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management - doener
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/13/german-digital-bank-n26-faces-outcry-from-staff-over-management.html
======
woco26
I'm there. Management sent an email to all employees a week after the process
was initiated about how the works council was against all their values, and
they have an amazing idea for modern employee representation - one they only
hired an external lawyer to present after the employees asked for a works
council.

Only a couple days ago, after having the invite in their hands for 10 days did
they start complaining about health and safety. Something they were never
concerned with when it came to actually working (packed meeting rooms,
mandating customer service agents return to work in the office).

Its a shame, because there is a lot of cool work to do here, and really
talented people to work with. It seems to just be a top level management
problem.

~~~
xpaqui
Help me out, I'm a long user of n26, I've found bugs in the app - still in
production - but can never escalate them to developers. Interactions with
support is as easy as interacting with a different life form, independent of
the problem the solution is always to unpair your device, reinstall the app.

~~~
spurdoman77
Sounds like the workers have effectively unionized against the customers.

------
doener
The N26 management apparently is doing everything to block this, which is a
criminal act by German law. They not only filed several injuctions against the
meeting (citing concerns about hygiene standards), but also called for an
official meetings with all employees at exactly the time the soon to be Work
Council held its meeting today. Now someone called the police to the meeting:

[https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294210928234373120?s=2...](https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294210928234373120?s=21)

Continuously updated article in German:

[https://financefwd.com/de/n26-betriebsratswahl-
versammlung/](https://financefwd.com/de/n26-betriebsratswahl-versammlung/)

~~~
pjmlp
Most likely they got one of those law firms specialized in "cleaning" works
councils. There are a couple ones.

~~~
ChuckNorris89
_> There are a couple ones._

Name and shame seems appropriate here, no?.

~~~
pjmlp
I posted an example in another thread, beyond that I am not willing to test
how good is my legal insurance.

~~~
ChuckNorris89
That's what throwaways are for ;)

------
esperent
I used to be a happy N26 customer. But now I'm going out of my way to tell
everyone not to use them. Two years ago I ordered the "metal" account (I think
that was the name) since I was traveling a lot. Last year, I forgot to cancel
it until I got an email saying it renewed.

It's not a huge amount, €5 a month. But I don't use it anymore so that's
wasted money and I decided to cancel it. Under EU law, I have two weeks to
cancel a subscription if I decide I don't want it, including an auto-renewing
subscription. I've cancelled subscriptions this way with companies before and
never had any comments beyond "yes, we'll cancel that for you immediately".

Not so N26. I said I want to cancel (within 2 days), they said I'd have to pay
the full year. I sent them the EU law saying that I have two weeks to cancel,
and they immediately, and in very threatening terms, said if I don't pay it
all they'll send my account to a debt collection agency (this is now the 4th
message in the conversation, and my first ever conversation with support after
three years as a happy customer).

I immediately withdrew all money from the account and emailed support
instructing them to close the account, referencing that support conversation
and the law saying that they can't charge me for the year's subscription.

Well, they did close my account, and they did send the rest of the
subscription charge to a collection agency who have sent me a few messages
(that I've ignored).

Oh, and the cherry on top. They emailed me back to say that my attempt to
cancel the subscription was not valid because I didn't use the word "revoke".
Apparently this would have all been fine if I said I want to "revoke the
subscription" but my account goes to a collection agency because I said "
cancel my subscription" instead which is completele BS.

Pretty terrible experience. In short, don't use N26.

~~~
thelastinuit
Uff! I moved to Germany last year and i almost got an account with them... for
thor’s beard!!! I’ glad i opened an account at bunq.

~~~
ThePowerOfFuet
Bunq is the cat's whiskers.

------
atypeoferror
> N26's co-founders Valentin Stalf and Maximilian Tayenthal have argued for an
> alternative, saying they believe the traditional German works council
> excludes international employees

This is patently false. I work at a medium-sized startup in Berlin, which is
very international, with many of my colleagues speaking little German. We have
recently created a Works Council (with support from the management) - and the
council includes non-german speakers. It is certainly more work, as the work
of the council involves a lot of german law - so training and documents need
to be translated - however it is possible, and we have nothing even close to
the resources of N26.

~~~
klausa
I think they meant "international employees" as in "employees of non-german
N26 Subsidiaries", not "non-german speaking employees of german-N26 entities".

Which, of course, is also a laughably bad argument, since there's nothing that
prevents N26 from voluntarily granting those employees similar protections
they'd enjoy if they were employed in Germany.

~~~
jlokier
> there's nothing that prevents N26 from voluntarily granting those employees
> similar protections they'd enjoy if they were employed in Germany.

That sounds like a two-tier system to me. Inside-Germany employees having a
say (backed by formal power) on their priorities; outside-Germany employees
having no say.

A works council, like a union, does not always act unambiguously in the
interests of all the employees. It's not that clear cut, because issues are
complicated. What is good for some employees is bad for others.

If N26 decided to grant outside-Germany employees similar protections as
inside-Germany, _would the outside-Germany employees have an equal say and
equal right to vote on what they want,_ or would only the inside-Germany
employees actually be represented because the formal process is limited to
just them?

~~~
germanier
It would be possible to structure codetermination in a legally binding way
that employees no matter where in the world have the exact same rights
(barring laws in other countries restricting such a thing). As that goes
beyond what German law requires most companies would probably not agree to
that but it clearly shows how hollow the statements of management in this case
are.

(It should be noted that the relevant German law considers "Betriebe" and
"Betriebsteile" as the unit where employees are represented, so each
individual location of a company is usually considered separate and employees
at one location have almost no say regarding employees in other locations. In
that way, the lawmakers had the same thought process as you)

------
Semaphor
> N26 has filed another restraining order to prevent today's Electoral Board
> Selection for N26 GmbH, this time against the union ver.di. As such, IG
> Metall has stepped in to chair today's meeting. It will take place at the
> same venue, with the time delayed so people can make it.

\--
[https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294183659583369216](https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294183659583369216)

ver.di and IG Metall are Germanys two biggest unions.

~~~
mathieubordere
My goodness, this is detrimental for their image ...

~~~
tgsovlerkhgsel
Does this ever end well for the company? These moves should make it extremely
clear to the employees how much they need a works council.

~~~
smnrchrds
I don't know about Germany. But using every dirty tactic in the book seems to
have worked well for Walmart in the US.

~~~
DasIch
It’s interesting you mention Walmart. Walmart has failed spectacularly in
trying to enter the German market. Their treatment of employees probably was a
factor but probably not the most important one though.

------
denzil_correa
> N26 has filed another restraining order to prevent today's Electoral Board
> Selection for N26 GmbH, this time against the union ver.di. As such, IG
> Metall has stepped in to chair today's meeting. It will take place at the
> same venue, with the time delayed so people can make it.

[https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294183659583369216?s=2...](https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294183659583369216?s=21)

~~~
onli
That's beyond stupid. It's fintech. Always on the brink of being regulated to
death, a highly sensitive area. They need every inch of goodwill from politics
and the public they can get. Fighting against worker unionization is already
highly unpopular in Germany and will cost them a bunch of customers, and will
cause them to lose political favor. Now adding ver.di (one of the strongest
unions) to their enemies, what are they thinking? Do they have no clue how
politically connected and powerful those unions are? They are now completely
branded as untrustworthy and stupid.

Also completely invalidates their defense for the first restraining order,
citing health risks. That was covered the moment ver.di took over the
organization of the meeting.

~~~
denzil_correa
[https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294210928234373120?s=2...](https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294210928234373120?s=2..).

> UPDATE: Someone has called the police to check the safety measures of the
> meeting. They found no issue and have left the premises.

~~~
onli
If N26 did that it backfired. If someone of the council did that, smart move.
Further proof that the meeting was properly done.

------
arianvanp
At least here in NL the Works Council is mandatory _By law_ if you have more
than 50 employees. I suppose the laws in Germany are similar. and I also
suppose N26 has more than 50 employeees ;)

A healthy organization should have one, in my opinion. Management being
against it is an unhealthy sign.

Just so you have some context. a Works Council has the following rights:

Right to discuss: they will have a bi-yearly meeting with the employer, who
will report to the employees the financial situation of the company

Right to give advise: (This is the one startups find scary). When a company
wants to do an investment round or any action that has economical or
organisational impact, they _must_ ask for advice from the Works Council. The
employer _must_ take their advice into account. If he does not, there is a
cool-down period of a month before the decisions comes into place. Within that
month the employees can take the employer to court in Amsterdam to block the
action. This basically means employees have the right to block investment
rounds through court. The burden of proof is on the employee that this is not
in interest of the company.

Right to vote: The WC has the right to vote on certain decisions regarding
reduction of working hours or work conditions. Here the onus is turned around
compared to the right to advise. The WC makes the decision, and the _employer_
has the right to countersue. This basically means the employees have the right
to force the employer to court if they want to do a firing round. The
employer's task is to prove in court that the firing round is needed by law.

~~~
arrrg
Worker Councils seem to have broadly similar but slightly different rights and
responsibilities in Germany.

They are never mandatory, however employees do have the right to form one if
there are at least five employees who are eligible to vote (18+) and if at
least three of those can be elected (>6 months with the company, broadly
speaking no one in an important management role).

At least three employees have to take the initiative and call for an election
and that can often be quite scary, to be honest. Because appalling rhetoric
like here from N26 is not uncommon when that happens. Often these employers
also try to (even pre-emptively) form their own unofficial employee council
(like is the case here), however that has to be seen with a heavy dose of
skepticism, since ultimate power of how such unofficial councils function and
whether they can exist at all still rests with the employer. Unlike the Worker
Councils they are not protected by the law.

Worker councils cannot be abolished by the employers, their rights cannot be
taken away by the employer. The employer has not control over them. That’s
their power.

That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually
form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it
to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though
Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or
blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker
Council.

~~~
sdoering
It is painting a target, as you said. at least with many employers. also being
part of a works council can massively hinder your career, even if officially
there are protections in place against such things.

but being a works council member myself I can assure you that even the best
employers can have very subtle ways. Works council members from different
companies talk and some stories are outright scary.

~~~
bkor
> It is painting a target, as you said. at least with many employers. also
> being part of a works council can massively hinder your career, even if
> officially there are protections in place against such things.

In the company I work for some join the (Dutch) Works Council just to get
ahead in their career. They often join until they're promoted. It's a huge
international shipping company.

~~~
sdoering
Wow. Never heard of that in Germany. Seems that in the Netherlands the works
council has a different standing.

------
the_mitsuhiko
If a startup refuses a worker’s council this way _and_ someone already tries
to establish it, that’s a good sign to look for employment somewhere else.

~~~
eulenteufel
In the article the N26 management is quoted:

"The alternative to the Works Council should have a representation of
employees who are not only based in Germany, but also all other countries,
including Brazil and the United States" and

"That said, if the N26 team feels that they want to organize the feedback
culture in Germany differently via a works council, N26 will of course respect
and support this, as well as any step in the formation of an electoral board."

The article says the initial dissent from the management was due to Covid19
concerns and inclusion of international employees. It may well be that N26 is
just trying to safe face, but if we take the statements as honest, they at
least give the impression that the management is not in principle against a
worker's council.

~~~
germanier
That's a very carefully worded statement to avoid giving evidence on a silver
platter of the crime in § 119 Abs. 1 Nr. 1 BetrVG

 _The following offences shall be punishable by a term of imprisonment not
exceeding one year or a fine, or both:_

 _1\. interfering with an election to the works council, the youth and trainee
delegation, the ship’s committee, the fleet works council or the
representative bodies of the employees referred to in section 3 (1), clause 1
to 3 or 5, or influencing such elections by inflicting or threatening
reprisals or granting or promising incentives_

Their actions speak different words

------
TheCapeGreek
Seems like a good thread to ask then: What other digital bank options are
there that are primarily EU based? N26 was the only one I found.

I keep seeing things like Monzo, Monese, Revolut but they're all UK based.
Don't think they'd be too impacted by Brexit but nevertheless I'm looking for
an EU-first solution.

~~~
jermier
All the so called 'neo banks' are still in their infancy which is good reason
to avoid them at all costs. I'm waiting until these startups mature (and they
are startups).

~~~
jen20
In the UK, anyone with the banking license Monzo has is protected by the
insurance mandate which was put in place after the collapse of Northern Rock.
The service from Monzo is substantially better than any other British bank, so
it's a risk I'm willing to take.

------
readarticle
_The alternative to the Works Council should have a representation of
employees who are not only based in Germany, but also all other countries,
including Brazil and the United States_

I find it hard to believe these councils don’t have the ability to account for
international employees, is this a specifically “outside the EU” issue since
the examples given are in the Americas, and not any of the neighboring
countries they surely have employees in?

~~~
sdoering
Actually they could include non German employees in their works agreements.
But none the less these binding agreements are, as far as I am aware, only
binding for German work contracts. So even if these protections were written
down, that wouldn't protect the international colleagues.as long as they are
not employed in a German legal entity.

Our works council for example isn't able to represent our Czech colleagues.

~~~
corty
German law doesn't require equal rights for employees in foreign offices, but
doesn't forbid it either. N26 can just create a binding company policy
("Betriebsvereinbarung") extending German-equivalent rights to foreign
offices' workers. There are some slight complications regarding voting quora
(you still need to obey majorities in Germany separately if the foreigners
don't agree), but those are rare.

Source: My employer has something like this.

------
aviraldg
Any recommendations for digital banks that _aren 't_ terrible to their
employees? The biggest/best ones I know of are N26 and Revolut and both are
kinda similar in this context.

~~~
adarioble
In the UK, Starling is worth a shot, although Monzo is constantly being
mentioned as a good bank in my circles.

~~~
davidhowlett
I live in the UK and also recommend Monzo. They have a good app but the thing
that stood out most to me was the correct use of emoji in their terms and
conditions. It is definitely a modern bank.

~~~
ahartmetz
> was the correct use of emoji in their terms and conditions

That seems like a _highly_ dubious way to evaluate a bank.

~~~
zodiakzz
Link for the lazy: [https://monzo.com/legal/terms-and-
conditions/](https://monzo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions/)

------
doener
Discussion at Reddit:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/i8vjyd/comment/g1d...](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/i8vjyd/comment/g1d7gr7)

------
hestefisk
Anyone here from N26 who can comment on what it’s like working for them?

~~~
engineern26
Yes, I am a Software Engineer working out of the Berlin office(now working
from home). It's a shit show. The situation seems to be escalating. Wishing
this was over one way or another.

EDIT: sorry, I misread the question. As a software engineer I am comfortable--
the work is interesting and engaging. I think it's mostly the customer support
staff who are disgruntled

~~~
xpaqui
Help me out, I'm a long user of n26, I've found bugs in the app - still in
production - but can never escalate them to developers. Interactions with
support is as easy as interacting with a different life form, independent of
the problem the solution is always to unpair your device, reinstall the app.

~~~
engineern26
Well can you share the support ticket number if you ever get one? I can
escalate those

------
anaxag0ras
Does anyone know of something like N26 but for Asian countries?

------
mrkramer
I don't understand what's happening but N26 name for a banking app is
ridiculous.

------
campl3r
As a German I will never work at a company with a workers council again. I
considered n26 for my next place, but I have no interest in the shit hole
that's a workers council.

~~~
trunc8
Would appreciate if you would expand on this. How does the employee experience
differ when a worker's council is in place?

------
Nimitz14
I can totally understand why management is against this. German bureaucracy is
a nightmare. I can't imagine anything good coming from a "workers council".

------
Maxbunny
Overall pretty exaggerated. N26 is against a worker's council, but they are
not preventing the employees to form one, and will accept their decision.

~~~
tomthe
Obviously they try to prevent the formation of a worker's council as much as
possible. If they did anything more, managers would face jail, as it is
punished quite hard to prevent the formation of a worker's council in Germany.

~~~
pjmlp
While you are correct, there are some law firms that help making it into a
reality, naturally that isn't mentioned publicly.

There are some Betriebsrat trainings where this kind of issues gets talked
about, and what are the legal means to counter-attack them.

