
The End of Prison Visitation - jclulow
https://mic.com/articles/142779/the-end-of-prison-visitation
======
rdtsc
> the trio of prison telecom giants ratcheted up the prices until a single
> phone call could cost upward of $14 a minute

> If the FCC stops the telecoms from gouging families for phone fees, the next
> frontier is, well, any other service those companies provide. One of those
> lucrative new products is prison email, in which families are charged for
> digital "stamps."

> risk it on her own computer and pay $10 for 20 minutes. Paid video visits
> were, of course, unlimited. Sims said she racked up hundreds of dollars in
> fees a month

This is disgusting, and what is most disgusting is that the majority of the
population probably thinks this is ok. Politicians don't win votes by being
nice and soft on crime and making it "easy" for the inmates. Here on HN and in
some areas people are aware and understand what is happening. But large
swathes of people would not blink an eye at this.

Also the prison industrial complex is deeply interested in long sentences and
repeat offenders. For them that is a guaranteed source of profit for years
ahead. Keep the people there desperate, away from family, turn them into
permanent criminals for life, to make sure as soon as they get out, they'll be
right back in. On paper they can justify as "it is not a right" or "this is to
mitigate risk", "keep costs down", "provide more options". But I can't imagine
they are also not thinking about the big picture.

No matter the rhetoric about "oh we incarcerate so many people, or we should
end war on drugs" as soon as incarcerating people becomes tied to someone
making a profit this will never go away.

~~~
taurath
Its literally out of sight out of mind for people.

This is not an issue where democracy does well - what we need are
administrators with a sense of morality and civic purpose, rather than a mob
of people who will respond to any perception of being "weak on crime" by
voting for the person creating that perception. There is, frankly, a systemic
problem of motivation for anyone to actually fix this - everyone in power gets
their cut of the profits here. It seems the american way at this point.

~~~
crdoconnor
>This is not an issue where democracy does well

Democracy let this happen but "free market" capitalism created the imperative
to do it.

Credit where credit's due.

~~~
F2468
If there was anything resembling free market capitalism, phone prices would
not be $10/min...

~~~
crdoconnor
Well, in DC policy circles, the presumed arbiter of what constitutes "free
markets" or "economic freedom":

[http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking](http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking)

Is _very_ much in favor of private prisons (and, consequently, $10/min phone
calls):

[http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/1988/05/bg650-a-gui...](http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/1988/05/bg650-a-guide-
to-prison-privatization)

~~~
wutbrodo
> the presumed arbiter of what constitutes "free markets" or "economic
> freedom"

This assumption is ludicrous. I can't even imagine the thought process that
would lead you to think that that makes any sense. Being the loudest proponent
of your vision of a concept doesn't make you a good arbiter of what
constitutes it: in fact it makes you a terrible one.

Not that I have as low an opinion of Heritage as I do of them, but do you
think the Westboro Baptist Church is the "presumed arbiter" of what
constitutes Christianity, simply because they shout the loudest about God?

~~~
crdoconnor
Westboro are _not_ taken seriously in DC policy circles. Heritage are taken
_very_ seriously.

------
bogomipz
This is an technology update of the landline extortion racket that Sercurus
has has in place.

[http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/may...](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/may/23/scandal-
phone-call-price-gouging-prisons)

There's also another extortion racket to send money:
[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/30/prison-bankers-
fami...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/30/prison-bankers-family-
visits-bills_n_5902818.html)

------
noonespecial
Officials fooling the politicians with fingers-crossed-behind-back weasel
words. Wantonly creating "exemptions" for themselves to disobey clear laws.
All while knowingly hurting individuals and damaging communities for a few
scraps of extorted money.

The level of Evil here (yes with the cap) has reached cartoon villain
proportions.

We probably need a constitutional amendment (the current interpretation of the
8th doesn't seem to be cutting it) detailing prisoners' rights and a separate
federal oversight organisation to enforce it. States seem to have been goofing
at this for quite some time now and seem powerless to stop it.

~~~
Animats
California used to have a Prisoners' Bill of Rights. It was repealed in
1994.[1]

The California Police Officers Bill of Rights was passed in 1974.[2]

[1]
[http://articles.latimes.com/1994-04-05/news/mn-42375_1_priso...](http://articles.latimes.com/1994-04-05/news/mn-42375_1_prisoners-
rights) [2]
[http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-225344--.html](http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-225344--.html)

------
fisherjeff
Simply unconscionable. I found out about this recently and many people I've
ranted to about it seem to think it's just one of the costs of being a
criminal.

I guess we've just gotten so "tough on crime" that we've forgotten that many
people in jail are there without having been convicted. Moreover, I don't
think a lot of people realize that the only reason many of those people are in
prison at all is just because they can't afford bail to get out before their
trial date.

~~~
hueving
>that many people in jail are there without having been convicted

Does this scheme apply to jails as well? I was under the impression that this
was applicable to state prisons.

~~~
tyingq
>>Does this scheme apply to jails as well?

Yes, it does. Not all jails (nor all prisons) gouge in this way, but the
temptation is strong, as companies like Securus share the spoils with the
facility.

------
chevas
More exploitation of the poor. Poorer people have less choice / options
because those extra choices tend to cost money. It's a grave evil when
organizations leverage this to take advantage of the poor and it happens all
the time.

~~~
sooheon
Literally a captive market.

------
ryanmarsh
My brother is in prison in Texas. If this happens to his unit and my mother
can't visit him I would be the most angry I've ever been in my life. I don't
know how I would cope with that. The JPay extortion scheme is bad enough. This
is demented.

------
mdip
Before I start, I'm in favor of in-person visitations and generally agree with
this article, but I was frustrated by its one-sided nature. They've presented
a case highlighting almost none of the motivations behind video visitations
beyond the quick buck ($1/minute) and the prison system's obvious desire to
screw the families of inmates[1].

Problem #1 at a prison is security. Physical visitation is a security
nightmare for all of the reasons you can imagine. The process is onerous to
the visitor, the prisoner and staff. Keeping contraband out is _very_
difficult - you can't give a body-cavity search to a visitor (as far as I
know). Yes, there are many ways to get bad things in, but this is one of them.
Because of these problems, visitations are scheduled events that occur far too
infrequently. This _also_ reduces moral.

Many family members of prisoners are unwilling to visit a prisoner for a
variety of human factors: being around a large number of criminals is not
something most people want to do. Being associated with a person in prison is
enough to make a family member not want to visit. Distance, especially in the
Federal system where a prisoner can be hundreds of miles away from any family,
is a huge barrier. The prisons that I'm aware of that are looking deeper into
video visitation are interested in its potential to increase visit frequency
and virtual, remote, visitation. It makes the stigma and difficulty of
visitation easier (on the visitor) which gives a prisoner a visitor that may
not have had one otherwise.

That said, while I think it would be OK for a prison to reduce in-person
visitations with the availability of _remote_ visitor visitation, I'm firmly
against elimination of in-person visitations (for all of the reasons presented
in the article). Security, being the first responsibility of a prison, is
benefited by not eliminating the program. But there is likely a balance. With
visitations being a "paid affair" (especially at those outrageous prices), and
with video visitation allowing for an easier to secure environment, there will
also be additional motivation to increase the frequency of these "virtual
visits", perhaps to the point of the frequency of what is allowed for phone
calls.

[1] I've chosen that wording because that was my take-away of how the article
framed the argument. I do not believe this is the actual motivation of the
prison system.

~~~
chmod775
You can, however, give a body-cavity search to a prisoner after visitation.

Plus, from my perspective, the first priority of any prison should be
rehabilitation and reintegration of the prisoner into society.

~~~
ajmurmann
Rehabilitation and integration are not goals in the US. It's punishment and
deterring criminals. It's dumb and antiquated old testament morale beyond
believe.

~~~
zo1
Let's not single out the US for that. There are quite a lot of places (many
even worse than the US) that use imprisonment for punishment and as a
deterrent, rather than rehabilitation. It's society's dirty little secret,
that some members of it just want "Bad People" to be punished.

~~~
peteretep
There are no other modern rich, democratic countries with anything even
approaching the incarceration rate or minimum sentencing insanity the US has,
so it's entirely proper to single the US out.

~~~
emodendroket
The Japanese system is deeply troubled too although in different ways.

~~~
lunchTime42
Yes, they have old people who dont get enough for a pension. That is troubling
as so far, as it prooves that people can in the end vote with there hands and
feets against the free market approach of everyone insure himself against
beeing poor at old age.

~~~
emodendroket
I'm talking about the justice system. I'm not quite sure what you are talking
about.

~~~
lunchTime42
The recently posted HN Article about the elederly in japan stealing to avoid
the penalty of beeing poor for a honest live in capitalism.

------
steve19
Seems criminally barbaric to me.

I wonder if contraband in the prison decreased, or if the prison guards were
happy to meet demand without having to compete with inmate relatives. I would
suspect the latter.

A friend of a friend of mine is a prison guard. He is a morally upstanding guy
(the type of person you would want to be a prison guard). he hates the job and
wants to leave but nobody in the security industry will employ him because
they (rightfully so) consider prison guards to be tainted by corruption.

~~~
jughtuyi
Barbarism isn't a crime, so it's not possible to be criminally barbaric.

~~~
Aelinsaar
Except where barbarism and "cruel and unusual" are synonymous of course...

------
surrealvortex
Just one of a long list of arguments against the privatization of the prison
system. There are very few things that should be in the exclusive purview of
the government, and the prison system is one of them.

Prison, in most cases, should be a way of reducing recidivism. Private prisons
have little or no incentive to do that.

~~~
usrusr
> Private prisons have little or no incentive to do that.

Understatement of the month. Corporations that happen to be in the business of
incarceration have less incentive for reducing recidivism than smartphone
makers have incentive for creating hardware that is still working well after
two years and one day of use.

------
ptaipale
This is an incredible extortion racket. I see a lot of whining about treatment
of criminals in America, but if prisons prevent visits in person and charge
for video calls, it is just plain wrong.

~~~
SwellJoe
That "whining about treatment of criminals" you see is based on a lot of
legitimate injustice in the prison industrial complex. Generally speaking, if
it seems like whining, it's because you just haven't seen what people go
through.

Honestly, I consider it criminal how prisoners are treated. In the sense that
I believe the people responsible for this stuff should probably be imprisoned
in the system they've built. They deserve it at least as much as the non-
violent drug offenders behind bars that make up half, or more, of the prison
population in some states.

------
vansteen
In the meantime in Europe ...

[http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/apr/29/prisons-
acros...](http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/apr/29/prisons-across-
europe-lessons-learned-uk-neighbours)

[http://qz.com/644914/the-netherlands-keeps-having-to-
close-i...](http://qz.com/644914/the-netherlands-keeps-having-to-close-its-
prisons-due-to-lack-of-prisoners/)

~~~
amarkert
I gather that you're Dutch, so here's a Dutch link:

[http://rechtennieuws.nl/8573/](http://rechtennieuws.nl/8573/)

The Netherlands is far from the nice image it has in the international media.
It's the leading country in phone taps and has program that gives the police
unlimited rights to harass individuals if the _mayor of a city_ says so.

Perhaps the prisons are empty, but the direction the country takes is pretty
much Orwellian.

~~~
Freak_NL
> It's the leading country in phone taps

That is worrying, but unfortunately not distinctive compared to other
countries.

> and has program that gives the police unlimited rights to harass individuals
> if the mayor of a city says so.

That is from 2006. Is that still an issue?

~~~
tremon
_Is that still an issue?_

It's unclear if the practice was entirely abolished, since it was introduced
as a reinterpretation of existing law (where have we seen that before?) and
has never been challenged in court. But this required a lot of dedicated
police presence, and was targeted only towards _specific individuals_ , when
sanctioned by an _elected offical_.

It appears the practice was silently discarded because it yielded no results:
[http://www.hpdetijd.nl/2009-07-10/zin-en-onzin-van-
terrorris...](http://www.hpdetijd.nl/2009-07-10/zin-en-onzin-van-
terrorrismebestrijding/) (complete evaluation report is
[https://www.nctv.nl/Images/evaluatie-
ct-2011_tcm126-444048.p...](https://www.nctv.nl/Images/evaluatie-
ct-2011_tcm126-444048.pdf), link in article is dead).

~~~
Freak_NL
Mayors are not elected officials in the Netherlands (let's hope it stays that
way).

~~~
tremon
oops, you're right.

------
maxerickson
So what's stopping non profits from installing some hardware and letting the
prisoners use Hangouts or whatever?

I don't mean that in a dismissive sense, I mean it very directly. Is it
expensive to maintain the hardware? Are the companies charging the high rates
getting exclusive contracts? Do the communications have to be monitored by the
provider?

~~~
jonathankoren
Recording of conversations that aren't protected by attorney-client privilege
is standard procedure. If your system can't do that, you'll never get a
contract.

~~~
derefr
While we're at it, couldn't you make _all_ the conversations protected by
attorney-client privilege? Just have the lawyer host an acoustic coupler in
their law offices. All calls are to your lawyer.

~~~
ufo
That is against the rules

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney%E2%80%93client_privil...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney%E2%80%93client_privilege#General_requirements_under_United_States_law)

------
aioprisan
This seems like a natural extension on the existing landline phone extortion
that currently takes place, which the FCC tooks steps to curb recently
([https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-takes-next-big-steps-
reduci...](https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-takes-next-big-steps-reducing-
inmate-calling-rates)), which unfortunately courts then turned around and held
up ([http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2016/03/07/appeals-court-puts-on-
ho...](http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2016/03/07/appeals-court-puts-on-hold-fcc-
caps-on-prison-phone-call-charges/)). Hopefully the FCC will step in again and
restore some sanity here.

~~~
emodendroket
This point is highlighted in the article.

------
benjohnson
This goes against my religious beliefs - Christians are called to visit
prisoners.

“I was in prison and you came to visit me … I tell you the truth, whatever you
did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.” Matthew
25:36, 40

~~~
jughtuyi
You can do what you want in your own home, but you can't demand that the state
runs justice in a way that follows your choice of religious texts. I can
understand that it's important to take religious views of prisoners into
account but if you're just some random person not involved with the prisoner
then you'll have to lump it I'm afraid. As it should be.

~~~
apsec112
Actually, in the United States, you can. Under the Religious Freedom
Restoration Act
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Freedom_Restoration_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Freedom_Restoration_Act)),
no law can interfere with someone's practice of their religion, unless the law
a) does something really important (a "compelling government interest"), and
b) there is no reasonable alternative. This applies to the federal government,
and many but not all states.

~~~
jughtuyi
But no law has been created to prevent visits, it's just not something the
prisons do anymore.

Unless you think religious people should have the power to force you to offer
services you don't want to this doesn't apply.

'My religion says that you must offer the public tours around your house.'

~~~
ifdefdebug
Really? Following your bogus argument, the next thing would be to feed the
prisoners with bread and water - no law has been created to prevent hot meals,
it's "just not something the prisons do anymore".

Prisons are entities which have the power to force human beings into their
services - so society has to force the rules over them. This has nothing to do
with religion.

~~~
tyingq
>>the next thing would be to feed the prisoners with bread and water

Sadly, things somewhat close to this already exist. A common "tough on crime"
statement goes something like "well, they're getting 3 hot meals a day".

In Texas, right now, many of the prisons give prisoners 2 meals a day on
weekends instead of 3...supposedly because staffing it too low to serve 3.

------
chinathrow
Wow, what a racket. How can people work for these companies and sleep at
night?

~~~
duncan_bayne
I'm more understanding of it now that I have children.

I know that I can deprive myself in order to avoid unethical work. But my
children? I think I could, but it'd be bloody hard emotionally, and I have
more sympathy for people who fail that test these days.

~~~
pcrh
That's the strangest "think of the children" argument I have ever heard.

It can't be too hard to avoid working for one of these companies.

~~~
cmdrfred
Also the difference from taking home 250k+ a year and 250K+ and a bonus
because you hit your targets a year isn't 'for the children' and that is the
type of compensation that the people making these decisions at the top are
pulling in.

~~~
peteretep

        > Also the difference from taking home 250k+ a year and
        > 250K+ and a bonus because you hit your targets a year
        > isn't 'for the children'
    

I take it you're unfamiliar with the cost of private schooling.

~~~
cmdrfred
I take it that you are very concerned with perceived social status.

~~~
orangecat
I take your point, but "perceived social status" is really, really valuable.

~~~
cmdrfred
I agree it is expensive, value on the other hand I find harder to prove.

~~~
duncan_bayne
I appreciate this is anecdotal data, but: in my locale, there are no good
public high schools. They have problems with academic results, drugs, and
bullying. Going private allows us to send our children to a school without any
of those problems.

------
mtgx
How is this not a national debate?

~~~
MaxfordAndSons
The implementation details of the American criminal justice system are
considered (by mainstream media gatekeepers, as well as politicians) to be
much too unsightly, and fraught with difficult philosophical conflicts (i.e.
the matter of whether imprisonments primary purpose is to rehabilitate or
punish). The closest they'll go is discussing issues at the scale (and
emotional distance) of demographics - racial disparities in
arrest/incarceration rates, etc.

------
zyxley
Given the right to a lawyer and the inevitability of technical complications
with a proprietary system, I have to wonder if this is even constitutional.

~~~
coldcode
Until the Supreme Court says it is everything in constitutional. Sadly the
Supremes often avoid anything that would require actually saying this.

------
bdcravens
The article is probably filled with correct information, but starting off with
a county jail example (there's a clear distinction between that level and
prison) was a knock against credibility, given the title.

~~~
tyingq
There's very little difference between jail and prison for this niche of
companies that gouge inmates for telecom, messaging, etc. It's the same
companies, with the same tactics.

------
ourcat
FCC Moves To Stop Extortion Of Incarcerated Families By Prisons And Phone
Companies

[http://www.ftb2tb.com/ftb2tb-blog/2016/1/4/fcc-moves-to-
stop...](http://www.ftb2tb.com/ftb2tb-blog/2016/1/4/fcc-moves-to-stop-
extortion-of-incarcerated-families-by-prisons-and-phone-companies)

------
EGreg
Land of the free...

~~~
josh_fyi
Land of the fee...

~~~
lunchTime42
...and of the f...

------
ArkyBeagle
I think the critical phrase is "tax masquerading as a service fee". This
dovetails nicely with the "debtor's prison" article by Alex Tabbarok, Aug 14
2014.

"We" want "law and order" ( in the Nixon-era sense of the term ) without
paying for it. It's oppression by administrative insouciance.

------
ourcat
Disgusting.

And just as bad a "GlobalTel". Who have no idea what the word "global" means
when it comes to paying to just talk to the incarcerated from outside the US.

------
AckSyn
This isn't a visit. This is an enhanced phone call.

------
devy
Perhaps writers should put this trend into the Netflix hit show "Orange is the
New Black" to get to wider audiences.

------
ams6110
Do written letters still work?

------
Unbeliever69
This country needs an enema.

------
tomjen3
It probably cost more to drive to prison than 10 USD for the video call from
home.

~~~
emodendroket
That's the takeaway here for you?

