
Tesla Model S outsells German luxury flagships in Europe - evo_9
http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180220/ANE/180219831/tesla-model-s-outsells-german-luxury-flagships-in-europe
======
jacquesm
Guess what? More Teslas are being sold than Ferrari's as well. This is an
apples-to-oranges comparison, every German brand that sells cars in this
segment outsells Tesla 5:1 or more.

Sales for 2017:

Tesla Model S: < 20K BMW 5 series: 109K MB E-class: 125K

Note that the EU tax situation for vehicles is very complicated and can cause
the price to change so much that a Tesla model S can be much cheaper, about
equal or more expensive to a BMW 5 series or E class depending on the country
you are looking at.

~~~
BoorishBears
I have no idea why the Model S sales numbers are being compared to cars like
the 7 series by laypeople too.

Even from a layman’s perspective... have these people driven a 7 series?
They’re more quiet highway cruising than the Model S I test drove... until you
feel like making them noisy, then you can floor it and hear a V12 roar to
life... if that’s your thing.

The Model S is more like a 5 series E Class in quality, strange that it gets
slotted with cars solely on price

~~~
nilkn
First of all, I completely agree that the E class is more on par with the
Model S, and the S class is significantly more luxurious.

With that said, I do think it's interesting that the Model S has S class
pricing and is outselling the S class despite being decidedly much less
luxurious.

I'd say many people spending upwards of $85k-$100k+ on a car don't just want
luxury -- they want social status. And right now a brand new upgraded Model S
is more attention-grabbing than a Mercedes S class.

~~~
013a
Really, Price is the only thing you can compare.

If you want complete luxury: S-Class, A7/A8, or 7-Series are going to be
_decidedly_ better in every way, at a similar price bracket. To be honest,
Tesla doesn't even compete in this category.

If you want the status symbol: Maybe Tesla is the best. You'd also probably be
cross-shopping a Panamera or maybe an XJ.

If you want performance: The best will be an E63S, RS5 (kind of a different
category), or M5. A P100D is stupidly fast off the line, but most enthusiasts
don't put it in the same class as high-end german performance cars due to
driving dynamics and the price. It gets an honorable mention.

If you want tech: Tesla, Audi, or the Cadillac CT6. Tesla wins on automated
driving, but Cadillac isn't far behind at all. Audi has some of that, but
their interior tech is easily on-par with Tesla when you option it out.

If you want all of them: You'll need to go upmarket. The RS7 would qualify,
especially the refreshed 2019 model, but really you'll have to enter "optioned
out Porsche" territory ($150k+) and even then you'll make sacrifices in the
tech department.

There are a few generalities you can make, though: First, BMW isn't as
competitive as they used to be. MB and Audi have recently started outpacing
them in most categories. Second, Tesla definitely isn't competitive at its
price bracket without tax incentives, unless all you care about is how other
people perceive you, which can't really be quantified like the other
categories.

------
OliverJones
The Model S (my Model S anyway) is expensive not because it's in the same
conspicuous luxury segment as the high end of the Benz or Porsche line, but
because it has expensive batteries, and because Tesla is using me, at my
expense and with my consent, to gain market experience.

It's a product for early adopters. S class Benz products are not that.

My presence as a customer in this imagined luxury car price point segment is
temporary. When it comes time to replace this Model S, I'm counting on several
mass-market EV brands competing with each other.

If things keep going the the way they are now, Tesla will have a loyalty
advantage in my next purchase choice. But that loyalty advantage probably
won't be worth more than a few kilobucks.

The Model S is definitely not a plutocratmobile. I really like it. I'm a total
fanboy. But there's road noise, and the front seat doors aren't plutocrat-
grade comfortable, and the radio, and , and , and. The market analysts putting
it in the plutocrat segment based only on price are making a mistake.

(Yeah, I know, first world problems. But I'm a proud early adopter. I also had
a first-generation Honda Insight hybrid.)

~~~
adventured
I think Tesla will eventually have to decide on a direction for the S, to
drift higher or lower in its competitive target, in line with inevitable
changes to tax credits.

It'll be interesting to see if they try to move down to compete with the BMW 5
category over time. Or whether they attempt to push quality higher, raise
prices and fully compete with the next tier up.

The Model 3 is very clearly going to stay focused on competing with the BMW 3
(and equivalent from Mercedes et al.) over time.

Perhaps Musk will push a new sedan into the mix eventually to more properly
align with how the BMW 3, 5, 7 series is set up.

~~~
cloudwalking
I think you're right, and I bet Tesla will try to compete with the 5 series/E
class and not the 7/S. Model S won't have to come down in price very much to
fit in with 5/E. Maybe it will lack fit and finish, but it will have much
better acceleration and cargo room (and the Tesla brand, and the domestic
badge). The Model S will remain pretty competitive in the market.

------
neverminder
The fact that Model S has "S" in it doesn't put it in the same class as
Mercedes S, it's more in the class of Mercedes E class / BMW 5er, so this
article doesn't make any sense.

~~~
bald
Who do you think is the authority on this?

The German KBA (Kraftfahrtbundesamt, similar to the DOT in the USA) classifies
the Model S as Oberklasse, the same class like BMW 7 series and Mercedes S
class.

Coming from a BMW 7 series and now driving a Model S myself, I sure have the
feeling that the Model S carries a prestige comparable or higher to that of
the 7er.

~~~
cptskippy
The Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt says it takes into account a number of
Abgrenzungskriterien including size, weight, performance, seating capacity, #
of doors; however it has no standard formula for assigning Models to a
Fahrzeugsegment. The only criteria used that truly differentiates the segments
is price. If you take a look at the vehicles included in the Oberklasse
segment you quickly see a pattern, they're all really expensive.

If you asked a 5 year old to play "which one of these is not like they other"
they'd quickly zero in on the Tesla models very quickly because they don't
look like luxury vehicles. That's not to say that the Tesla models aren't very
nice cars, they're just not opulent. The Tesla models cost as much as they do
because of the technology under the covers. The other cars in the Oberklasse
segment aren't technologically expensive, they're pretty bog standard high
performance vehicles slathered in expensive and exotic materials and
refinements.

~~~
jjeaff
Hmm, really? What is it about a Tesla that doesn't look as premium. On the
outside I think they look comparably luxurious to a Mercedes a class of BMW 7.
The inside amenities is where they fall short in my opinion.

~~~
Tomte
Maybe nobody will believe me, but the first time I saw a Tesla Model S in
person was a few months ago, when it stopped in front of me at a traffic
light.

I couldn't read the word "Tesla" and only saw an unfamiliar car with a logo I
hadn't seen before.

My thoughts were "what strange Chinese crap trying to look like a big car is
this?". Really.

I know, sounds stupid. I was able to read "Tesla" shortly thereafter and
certainly felt stupid, not recognizing the car or the logo after reading so
much about Tesla.

My opinion has slightly changed, in the meantime, I don't see them anymore and
think of "cheap" and "wannabe", but I suspect that my initial feeling was the
true one and I'm now subconsciously factoring in that I know it is a Tesla.

Still, they badly need an experienced "conventional" designer if they see
themselves as one of the luxury Mercedes or BMW cars. But I suspect they don't
see themselves like that and actively try to force a new design language into
the market and create a new niche.

~~~
cptskippy
This thread has got me thinking about what luxury looks like and I think brand
prestige plays a lot in our perceptions. When we think Bentley, Audi, BMW or
Mercedes we think high end luxury because of their history and lineage. Those
brands also use very unique design language. BMW has it's characteristic 4
globe headlamps, Audi with it's minimalist aesthetic, etc. We've associated
those designs with luxury.

When you first see the Hyundai Genesis line of cars you think it's some sort
of high end fine European luxury vehicle because they copied the design
language of luxury brands. However when you realize they're Hyundais you
immediately think "oh garbage".

When Toyota first starting making the Lexus line they look like glossy
versions of their Toyota counterparts and it took many years for them to
develop a distinctive design aesthetic. Honda had similar issues with the
Acura line in the US and I would argue they still do because the Acura line
doesn't exist in other markets so those vehicles are branded as Honda. The
Honda Odyssey has always looked more like an Acura to me.

Tesla to their credit didn't try to cash in the prestige of another brand by
copying their design language. Tesla's design language is a blank slate in our
mind so when we see it we don't know what to expect. We try to associate it
with what we know, in this case you thought Chinese crap.

~~~
jotm
I dont' think true luxury is meant to "look". There's the iconic Rolls Royce,
Aston Martin, Porsche designs that most people recognize, but plenty of luxury
cars look quite average. It's only when you're inside that you realize why
they're luxury. I loved the VW Phaeton for this - yes, I know, not the highest
end luxury, but it looks like a Passat on the outside and feels like an S
class on the inside imo.

~~~
amyjess
The Toyota Century is another example of this kind of luxury car. It's tailor-
made for conservative Japanese businessmen who have a lot of money and enjoy
riding in comfort but have no desire to show off.

Here's a good article on the Century and the kind of luxury it represents:

[http://autoweek.com/article/tokyo-motor-show/no-modern-
luxur...](http://autoweek.com/article/tokyo-motor-show/no-modern-luxury-sedan-
can-touch-toyota-century)

------
oblib
I know from a long career in the custom car field that this is an amazing
milestone for a new US based automotive manufacturer.

The "DeLorean" was far behind this when they folded and that attempt got
further than any before since the 1930s, and they weren't really a US
manufacturer.

The "Tucker" didn't come anywhere near the Telsa, and that's probably right
behind the DeLorean on the timeline.

And even more important is how they are doing it. They're not just building a
new car, they're using an entirely different kind of powertrain and
drivetrain. This too has been tried before, but again no startup has ever made
it this far or advanced the tech used so dramatically.

I don't build custom cars anymore but I know what it takes from concept to
production and I'm not just impressed with what they've done, I am astonished
with how much they've done.

At this point, no matter what happens to Tesla, they have changed the industry
forever.

~~~
MisterTea
I honestly never thought we would see a from the ground up car manufacturer
coalesce into existence without divine intervention. I remember hearing that
the barrier of entry to the automobile market is measured in billions per
vehicle platform. For a long time I assumed that the only way we'd see another
car maker is if a Chinese or Indian manufacturer entered the US Automobile
market.

------
mtmail
Raw data. It doesn't match the number listed in the article exactly but the
same trend.

[http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-
data/tesla/tesla-...](http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-
data/tesla/tesla-model-s/) 2017: 16.026, 2016: 11.564: 2015: 15.169

[http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/Mercedes-
Ben...](http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/Mercedes-
Benz/Mercedes-Benz-S-Class/) 2017: 14.757, 2016: 14.967, 2015: 16.583

[http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/mercedes-
ben...](http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/mercedes-
benz/mercedes-benz-e-class/) 2017: 127.638, 2016: 99.494, 2015: 84.771

------
c1utch1
This is fake news. Comparing Tesla sales to the X6 doesn't make any sense
since that's a very niche product that BMW sells. I understand it's the most
similar BMW from a design standpoint, but it's probably their lowest volume
model. The most comparable would be the 5 series.

------
abzolv
IMHO Tesla is selling well only because they are first to market, and because
of the various EV incentive programs.

One will be able to assess Tesla's real market performance when the major
manufacturers start selling EVs with comparable mileage capabilities.

I would much rather wait to buy an Audi EV SUV or a Mercedes EV SUV in 2019 or
2020, than buy a Tesla Model X right now. By waiting just a year or two, one
deals with local dealerships, you have the usual availability of spares and
parts for maintenance and body work, plus the already well-known quality and
workmanship of an Audi, Mercedes, etc.

Tesla is not a bad choice, but when one is able to choose between a Tesla and
Mercedes/Audi/BMW/Ford/Toyota/etc with comparable stats, I think most people
will stick with the more familiar brand that they can buy from their local
dealership.

~~~
rconti
At this point, I disagree that it's because of the incentives. In fact, at the
Model S price point, it probably had nothing to do with incentives, which are
(if you're 'lucky', 10% at $100k pricepoint).

First to market, yes. And first to make it 'cool'. I have a hard time thinking
BMW bolting batteries into a car will take away from the novelty factor of the
Model S. It's not just about propulsion, it's everything -- the styling, the
electronics, the early adopter thing, street cred, etc.

It's "do you want to buy one of half a dozen old school cars, or this new COOL
thing?"

How many Prius owners have seen a Honda hybrid of some sort and been surprised
that Honda makes a hybrid?

~~~
dragonwriter
> How many Prius owners have seen a Honda hybrid of some sort and been
> surprised that Honda makes a hybrid?

Honda had the first mass-produced US-market hybrid, and was the first to make
it cool.

OTOH, the first-gen Prius was more broadly useful than the super-small first-
gen Insight that preceded it to the US market.

Not sure how this is supposed to map to Tesla, are you trying to say Tesla is
like Toyota or Honda in this comparison?

~~~
rconti
The Tesla is like the Toyota. It's the car everyone knows is an electric.
Hybrids from non-Toyota makers had to play a lot of catchup (and, frankly,
even non-Prius Toyota Hybrids) to have the same appeal that the Prius did.

In the same way, I don't see electric cars from BMW or Audi or Mercedes
competing with Tesla on day 1. It's just JUST the powertrain that's drawing
people to the Tesla. Some of the pro-Tesla draws are down to vanity or image,
and others are more tangible.

------
jaclaz
Here is an old [2016] article about why the Tesla S might not be a "Full-Size
Luxury Sedan", which lists arguments I personally find convincing:

[https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/tesla-people-hate-me-
but...](https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/tesla-people-hate-me-but-the-
tesla-model-s-still-isnt-a-full-size-luxury-sedan-258246)

TL;DR, it is roughly same size and offers same leg room as BMW series 5 and
Mercedes Class E, besides, given that virtually no BMW or Mercedes is sold in
a base equipment version and that the government subsidizing for fully
electric cars must be taken into account they are also in an approximately
similar price range.

------
alkonaut
The big brands are in a bit of a dip, converting from a huge fraction being
big diesels, back into petrol and more hybrid/electrics. It will be a few
years before the likes of VW/Audo/Merc/BMW/Volvo etc have all hybrid and/or
electric. The dieselgate combined with the rise of Tesla caught everyone off
guard. Also, there are some big subsidies that obviously go mostly to Tesla,
and not to the luxry car makers (much). When subsidies disappear (or apply to
germans too because they make EV's) then the sales figures can be better
compared.

------
mtgx
Good news. But I'm not happy about this:

[https://blog.redlock.io/cryptojacking-
tesla](https://blog.redlock.io/cryptojacking-tesla)

Remember, we don't even have 1/1000 of the cars on the road as self-driving
vehicles, and yet these carmakers' systems are already getting hacked. What we
can expect when/if Tesla and other carmakers have 50 million self-driving
vehicles each on the road?

~~~
scottLobster
"The RedLock CSI team immediately reported the incident to Tesla and the issue
was quickly rectified."

That's the most you can ask for beyond basic competence. There will always be
security bugs in software to some extent, the fact that Tesla responded
quickly gives me more confidence in them.

But I agree with your overall point, at some point some hacker is going to
kill people with a hacked car (probably not a Tesla), and it's going to take
lots of dead bodies and legislation for congress to pass appropriate standards
for security. Hopefully we'll reach a point where computer security in cars is
regulated the same as seat belts and air bags.

~~~
Consultant32452
Once the state actors have hacked the AI drivers/cameras they will be able to
track and kill just about anyone anywhere with them.

~~~
21
News flash: state actors can already track and kill anyone they want

~~~
mtgx
State actors can't yet kill anyone in any other country from the comfort of
their chairs.

This is the same argument people make when they say "drone strikes are the
same as air strikes". Not they are not. We're seeing orders of magnitude more
drone strikes than air strikes, and that's _because they are different_ (such
as much cheaper and easier to do than ever before).

~~~
21
> State actors can't yet kill anyone in any other country from the comfort of
> their chairs.

This is what the CIA/Mossad/FSB/... does

Sure, cars will make it cheaper and more convenient, and will open up the
"market" to smaller states, but it's not a new capability.

~~~
tyfon
Sometimes they do, but sometimes they get caught like in this instance. Doing
it by car would probably be preferable.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer_affair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer_affair)

------
madengr
I suppose premium in Europe is luxury in the USA. Isn’t a 7 series BMW about
$140k USD?

~~~
xversilov
Yeah, nobody buys a 7 series to drive themselves. The 5 series is BMW's driver
flagship, IMO.

~~~
sorenjan
Never seen a 7-series that wasn't driven by the owner.

~~~
dingaling
My local council had one chauffeur-driven for the Mayor and associates until
the need for a more 'austere' public image saw it being replaced by a Skoda
Octavia ( Jetta / Golf platform ).

I think the Mayor of Belfast still rides in the back of a 7.

------
SEJeff
Tesla to the rest of the auto manufacturers: I have not yet begun to fight!
(in my best John Paul Jones voice)

------
PhaseBlue
The fact that nobody has mentioned the word torque shows the lack of Tesla
owners on these comments. Driving a Tesla can make you forgive all the other
shortcomings.

------
cat199
I hear that in 5 years everyone will be using tablets and there will be no
more laptops or desktops either...

oh wait, it's not 2013 anymore.. never mind.

------
JumpCrisscross
Original source:
[http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180220/ANE/180219831/te...](http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180220/ANE/180219831/tesla-
model-s-outsells-german-luxury-flagships-in-europe)

From the Hacker News Guidelines [1]: "Please submit the original source. If a
post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter."

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
sctb
Thanks, we've updated the link from [https://electrek.co/2018/02/20/tesla-
dominates-luxury-segmen...](https://electrek.co/2018/02/20/tesla-dominates-
luxury-segment-europe-gas-powered-german-cars/).

------
jankotek
Subsidized luxury cars....

~~~
r3bl
Subsidized electric cars.

Level of luxury doesn't matter at all in this case. The car is electric, and
therefore, is subsidized.

