
American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island - dankohn1
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/21/world/asia/american-killed-andaman-island-tribe.html
======
dang
All: those of you turning this into religious and national flamewar are
violating the site guidelines and significantly degrading the thread. Please
don't do that on HN.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
yesenadam
..a remote Indian island, North Sentinel, that I learned all about after it
was mentioned on HN a couple of weeks ago. Small world!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sentinel_Island](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sentinel_Island)

..which led to reading about other "uncontacted peoples", a fascinating and
sad story.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontacted_peoples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontacted_peoples)

edit: Oh, it was 8 days ago. I submitted this[1] ripping yarn about an
American with an anthropologist father and Yanomami mother returning to South
America to find his mother after 20 years. I'd read his father's book about
his life, work and marriage years ago.

Bob Connolly & Robin Anderson's amazing _Highlands Trilogy_ [2] is about a
mixed-race man trying to run a coffee plantation while living between western
society and his New Guinea tribe. His father was the first white man to
contact the tribe.

Jared Diamond's _The World Until Yesterday_ [3] brought home for me what human
life was like until very recently. You couldn't travel far in any direction
without the tribe next door trying to kill you.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18438586](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18438586)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Contact_(1983_film)#The_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Contact_\(1983_film\)#The_Highlands_Trilogy)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Until_Yesterday](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Until_Yesterday)

~~~
RufusJacksons
Don’t know if read down to the Waorani people on that wiki article - but I
followed the same trajectory from the HN post last week. I’ve had the pleasure
to have hiked out from Shell Ecuador to a Waoroni village and spent some tine
with them (they speared a number of Christian missionaries to death in the
50’s) and it’s quite fascinating how their culture has changed from one of the
most violant to a peaceful one, and their population size has increased
substantially since their conversion

The “Christian” movie The End of The Spear documents that tribe and I’m happy
to say that I’ve met many of the original “spearers” and they are alive and
well and mentoring the young villagers on living peacefully

~~~
yesenadam
Thanks. P.S. The documentary _Beyond the Gates of Splendor_ by the same
director about the same story sounds better.

[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0337868/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0337868/)

------
option_greek
As horrific as it may sound, I hope his rotting body won't make the islanders
sick. Human contact in the past had wiped out some of the Andaman tribes due
to the lack of resistance to many diseases.

~~~
em3rgent0rdr
"According to health professionals, the fear of spread of disease by bodies
killed by trauma rather than disease is not justified. Among others, Steven
Rottman, director of the UCLA Center for Public Health and Disasters, said
that no scientific evidence exists that bodies of disaster victims increase
the risk of epidemics, adding that cadavers posed less risk of contagion than
living people."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_risks_from_dead_bodies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_risks_from_dead_bodies)

~~~
qiqing
In this case, a living person would also pose a risk. These islanders don't
have the same immune system that the population the health professionals are
looking after have, just like Native Americans didn't have the same immune
system as Europeans.

~~~
jessaustin
It's not comparable to the "New World" situation. These islands are close to
the continent and had regular (if dangerous) visits from modern people
throughout the twentieth century. We have no reason to think that Chau carried
a deadly disease.

------
smsm42
It is fascinating - and unsettling - how many people react to this on range of
"ha-ha, stupid medieval idiot, deserved to be murdered" to "typical
American!".

I know some cultures don't value human life as high as we in the Western
culture do, and murdering people for trespassing on some taboo barely
comprehensible to outsiders is not very far from our culture either. But what
I see is a person trying to do a subjectively good thing to the islanders
(even though one can certainly disagree about it being objectively good, but
it's clear he meant absolutely no harm to them) and objectively at least not
doing anything we'd consider harmful - getting murdered.

I don't think it warrants derision and mockery that I am reading here, and I
don't think such reaction would follow if he wasn't an American Christian. It
is true than in the past Christians participated in many atrocities (not that
it's in any way unique to Christians), including against indigenous people -
but this person has nothing to do with it. He meant no harm, and he got
murdered for it. It is tragic, and should not be a place to make fun of his
religion (even if you consider it and all religions stupid in general, there
are many more befitting opportunities to make fun of them than a murder of an
innocent person) and blaming him for being American.

Yes, maybe he is not the cleverest cookie in the jar, and he probably
shouldn't have done what he did. But making fun of his murder goes far beyond
that, and I am positively horrified of how many people jump into that so
readily and with such gusto.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
Why on earth would the nationality or religion of the guy matter? Wouldn't
change my view that he was an arrogant idiot choosing not to believe local
custom should apply to him. Him being atheist or Buddhist wouldn't change
that. He chose to follow the well trod path of believing them not "civilised
enough" and wanting to force change. Doesn't really matter what change, does
it?

It's a shame he chose to waste his life so needlessly.

"He meant no harm"

Why does whether he meant harm matter? It would not matter to a crocodile had
he chosen to wander into a zoo enclosure. It would not matter if he had
wandered into a hot war zone. It did not matter to a group of people who have
consistently, for a very long time, demonstrated they do not want invasions of
their home. The evidence appears he knew full well his intentions were
rejected, as he made multiple visits at times when he hoped he would not be
seen or caught.

"murdered"

No. He was killed subject to the laws and customs of an isolationist territory
he visited repeatedly despite his first visits being rejected. In local custom
that could easily be considered more than fair warning. You might not _like_
their laws and customs, just as some might not like SE Asian drug laws and the
death penalties that result, or the laws or lack of due process of some other
parts of the world. You risk flouting them at your peril regardless of intent,
or whether you happen to agree with them.

His nationality or religion is irrelevant.

~~~
smsm42
> Why on earth would the nationality or religion of the guy matter?

Seeing the comments, it clearly does.

> Why does whether he meant harm matter?

That's kinda how we do morals around here? We treat a person that
intentionally means harm to another person (e.g. if somebody shoots another
person with intent to kill) as morally negative, and we usually treat actions
that did not mean any harm with much less moral scorn, even if they led to bad
consequences - e.g. if a car accident happens through no fault of anybody and
still there's a fatality, we treat it as much less morally repugnant than,
say, unsuccessful murder attempt. Moreover, in criminal case, to prove guilt,
you usually need two things - actus reus (bad deed) and mens rea (guilty
mind). Intent matters there too.

> It would not matter to a crocodile had he chosen to wander into a zoo
> enclosure.

People aren't crocodiles though. People are subject to moral judgement. That
said, if somebody wanted to feed a crocodile that he genuinely believed is
starving and in dire need of food, and the crocodile killed him, I don't think
the person would deserve the kind of derisive mockery we see here.

> No. He was killed subject to the laws and customs of an isolationist
> territory

Yes, he was murdered. If you follow your moral relativist stance, you'd very
quickly arrive at the conclusion that virtually every atrocity in human
history - from ancient genocides to the Holocaust - is completely fine and
justified, since it was OK by the rules of whoever perpetrated it. I don't
think you really believe that.

------
xutopia
I'm fascinated by these people. They must have one heck of a culture to
immediately resort to killing any stranger that lands on their shore. I wonder
what religious beliefs they have and what kind of society creates what seems
to be extreme and violent xenophobia to us.

As fascinated as I am I would double check that I have something to row with
if I take a motorboat out to see the island from afar. No way in hell I'd want
to step foot on that island or be at bow and arrow distance.

~~~
WhompingWindows
I think you're over estimating how friendly other cultures are to outsiders.
There are numerous, numerous cases of greed and ambition leading to the
slaughter and enslavement of native peoples by invaders/conquerors. There are
also multiple states in the USA where you'd be within your rights to shoot
anyone on your property.

~~~
leetcrew
> There are also multiple states in the USA where you'd be within your rights
> to shoot anyone on your property.

in which US states can you legally use deadly force against anyone on your
property (not in your house) without being threatened?

------
throwaway5752
_" The 27-year-old American, identified as John Allen Chau, came to India on a
tourist visa but came to the Andaman and Nicobar islands in October with the
express purpose of proselytizing, Dependra Pathak, Director General of Police
of the Andaman and Nicobar islands, told CNN. "We refuse to call him a
tourist. Yes, he came on a tourist visa but he came with a specific purpose to
preach on a prohibited island," Pathak said. Chau did not inform the police of
his intentions to travel to the island to attempt to convert its
inhabitants."_

[https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/21/asia/andaman-nicobar-us-
missi...](https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/21/asia/andaman-nicobar-us-missionary-
killed-intl/index.html)

------
ProAm
> a remote island inhabited by a tribe whose members have killed outsiders for
> simply stepping on their shore.

I'm not sure what he expected.

~~~
cronix
I wonder if this young man also had to touch the red hot stove after being
warned that it would burn him. Just another fine recipient of the "Darwin
Award"...

> The fishermen said that tribesmen had shot arrows at him and that he had
> retreated. He apparently tried several more times to reach the island over
> the next two days, the police say, offering gifts such as a small soccer
> ball, fishing line and scissors. But on the morning of Nov. 17, the
> fishermen said they saw the islanders with his body.

------
nindalf
Lots of people talking about his intent to convert the Sentinelese. Maybe
that's relevant, but I feel like the main talking point should be that he went
to a place where everyone warned him not to go to because it was dangerous and
forbidden. He knew the risks and deliberately tried to circumvent the patrols
by setting out at night time. Patrols that existed as much for his safety as
for the islanders'. Even when met with initial hostility, he persisted in try
to land on an island where he was clearly unwelcome.

This man deserves no sympathy.

------
jessaustin
The Sentinelese also do not appreciate pork:

 _Once, when Mr. Pandit’s expedition offered a pig to the Sentinelese, two
members of the tribe walked to the edge of the beach, “speared it” and buried
it in the sand._

------
jadell
If anyone is interested in an entertaining and informative podcast about North
Sentinel, check our Jake Barton's _Historium_ episode[0], from just a couple
weeks ago.

Also, I highly recommend the entire podcast.

[0] [https://www.orbitaljigsaw.com/podcasts/historium/41-the-
isla...](https://www.orbitaljigsaw.com/podcasts/historium/41-the-island-lost-
in-time/)

------
ribs
I read in one article that there was a recent change in law involving the
Sentinelese that might have encouraged Chau to go there. Can anyone
corroborate?

------
swatkat
What he did was illegal. Access to the island is restricted for a reason.

 _> >> But Mr. Chau pushed ahead in his kayak, which he had packed with a
Bible. After that, it is a bit of a mystery what happened._

Also, can these evangelists take a break? It's not 1600s anymore.

~~~
WhompingWindows
Their religion and its proponents teach them to spread the word, they won't
take a break. It's what separates Christianity and Islam from the majority of
non-proselytizing religions.

~~~
Udik
I don't see catholic christians setting up missions with the primary purpose
of proselytizing. In many respects it is true that American evangelical
churches are much more retrograde than the Catholic church itself, promoting a
brand of religion that is, for example, self-righteous, anti-scientific, and
putting particular emphasis on the more archaic and brutal Old Testament.

~~~
ryanmercer
>I don't see catholic christians setting up missions with the primary purpose
of proselytizing.

Because they did most of it starting in the middle ages and the Age of
Discovery. In fact that's mostly what the Franciscans, Dominicans and Jesuits
did in California, South America and Asia from 1500ish to well into the late
1800's.

~~~
Udik
Of course, I'm talking about the current situation.

------
mavdi
“Jesus had bestowed him with the strength to go to the most forbidden places
on Earth”

To go, yes. To survive, evidently not.

------
ianwalter
And thats why you dont do that.

------
deanCommie
> Mr. Pathak said Mr. Chau, believed to be 26 or 27 and from Washington State,
> may have been trying to convert the islanders to Christianity. Right before
> he left in his kayak, Mr. Chau gave the fishermen a long note. In it, police
> officials said, he had written that Jesus had bestowed him with the strength
> to go to the most forbidden places on Earth.

A perfect storm of Christian and American arrogance.

~~~
JPKab
Please explain to me how the fact that he happens to be American is proven to
be causal here?

I guess you make a good point. After all, the missionaries who converted
indigenous populations all over the world were all from the USA. Oh wait, no.
The vast majority of the Christian missions were founded by Europeans. Arabs
converted millions to Islam hundreds of years ago.

But yeah, they were all infected with American arrogance.

~~~
wpietri
Proven to be causal? Like we'd clone 1000 John Allen Chaus, raise them around
the globe, and see how many of them do something fatally arrogant relating to
overseas travel?

As an American who has lived on 4 continents, I can confirm that American
tourists quite often live up to the stereotype. I have a variety of painful
memories of times I've had to intervene and explain things and/or translate
for aggressively clueless Americans. Many travelers are great, of course. But
I still think the stereotype is justified.

It makes sense, I guess. We grow up in a country big enough that we can travel
widely without learning another language or learning much about dealing with
different customs. And our wealth and our culture of American exceptionalism
make it easy for us to spin the globe, plop a finger down, and expect that we
can go there and do as we please. Often it works, even if it does rub the
locals the wrong way. And sometimes, as here, it doesn't work at all.

~~~
JPKab
A very snide remark you start with, not realizing you are proving my point.

He made a statement that is a sweeping generalization that isn't even
provable.

Your anecdotal experiences on 4 continents are again, just that. Anecdotes.
The American travelers you didn't notice, and therefore don't remember, aren't
included in your confirmation bias fueled reasoning.

~~~
wpietri
Right. Everybody understands that not every topic is in practice approachable
with the sort of level of rigor we use in, say, particle physics. But we are
still people who have to live in the world. So everyone has a variety of
heuristics they use to deal with topics that are not as tractable.

That includes you, of course. What studies do you have that show that
demanding proof of causality in casual conversation is effective in improving
the discourse? None, I'm guessing. But here you are doing it.

------
flocial
A more accurate title: "American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow for Illegally
Invading Remote Indian Island"

------
PhasmaFelis
I thought this was going to be another drunken mistake like the two fishermen
who died in 2006. No, apparently, this guy thought he was going to bring Jesus
to a bunch of famously xenophobic murderers.

Any death is a tragedy, but it's hard to feel terribly bad about this one.

~~~
Apocryphon
One man's delusion is another's deliverance. Some may snicker of Darwin Awards
and all that, but this man died in a misguided and naive attempt to do good,
not to exploit or harm anyone.

I'm sure his family and friends feel terribly bad about this tragedy.

~~~
stock_toaster
> not to exploit or harm anyone

Isolated tribes often do not have the same built up immunities to common
diseases. It may not have been intentional, but he could very well have killed
them all, regardless of his motives.

~~~
Apocryphon
"Ignorant" is another descriptor that should be applied to his actions.

------
DoreenMichele
I'm not too thrilled with the comments here that are defending his decision to
go there as clearly some kind of good thing because his stated motive was
_Christianity._ I'm just going to leave this here and say no more on the
matter:

 _“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but
inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them.
Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise,
every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good
tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every
tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of
heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name
and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you
evildoers!’_

[https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/matthew/7/](https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/matthew/7/)

------
projectramo
The comments here are horrific.

Yes, _I_ don't think we should invade the lives of indigenous people any more
than _you_ do. And yes, I think this young man was mistaken and misguided.

But, he went in with the best of intentions, and he died. You just don't
believe what he did. Imagine a techie died while trying to teach rails to the
homeless (which, I can only assume, some of you might be more sympathetic
towards), would you feel the same way?

Edit: p.s. The rails thing is a joke, but not the rest of it.

~~~
beat
If it was actually against the law to teach Rails to the homeless, in order to
protect them? Yeah.

~~~
verroq
I didn’t know that death was a proportational or appropiate sentence for this
crime. And I am willing to bet that whatever Indian law he violated it wasn’t
a capital offence.

~~~
crooked-v
Indian law is at best marginally applicable, as the Indian government treats
the Sentinelese as a de facto mostly-sovereign protectorate. The use of force
in repelling unwanted visitors is one of the basic prerogatives of any nation,
even a very tiny one, and the Sentinelese even follow a reasonably ethical
use-of-force continuum, with shouts and then warning shots before only
shooting to kill if someone doesn't leave on their own.

------
throwawaywhynot
Misleading title. It's technically correct but conveys an erroneous message.

------
module0000
Funny how the world has evolved. A couple hundred years ago, natives killing a
member of another civilization usually resulted in that civilization sending a
militia to exterminate/enslave those natives. The times have changed.

------
verroq
Maybe they should build a wall? Funny how leftists come out of the woodwork to
justify murder while screaming open borders.

~~~
dang
Taking a thread like this straight into ideological flamewar like this is
exactly what we don't want and the sort of thing we ban people for. Will you
please not do it on HN?

