
No-fly list ruling in Portland comes close to declaring it unconstitutional - rubyrescue
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/08/no-fly_list_ruling_in_portland.html#incart_special-report
======
jlgreco
_" Although there are perhaps viable alternatives to flying for domestic
travel within the continental United States, such as traveling by car or
train, the court disagrees with (the government's) contention that
international air travel is a mere convenience in light of the realities of
our modern world," Brown wrote._

Yeah, no kidding. That somebody could _sincerely_ espouse such a position is
mind-boggling to me. It ranks up there with _" Gay people can already get
married too (to the opposite sex)."_

~~~
veemjeem
Are there any companies whose core source of revenue is transporting people
via boat? I'm not referring to cruises or other entertainment-based boats.

~~~
jlgreco
Internationally, to and from the US? I doubt it. At a smaller scale you may
find privately operated ferries, though I think those are usually operated by
governments. There are companies like these guys:
[http://www.stenaline.co.uk/ferry/scandinavia/](http://www.stenaline.co.uk/ferry/scandinavia/)
but I don't think those sort of companies will do you much good if you are
trying to get out of or into the US.

Edit: For non-cruise trans-Atlantic crossing by sea, the best I've been able
to find on google is the Queen Mary 2. That seems to be generally considered
an ocean liner rather than a cruise ship.

 _" The Italian Line's SS Michelangelo and SS Raffaello,[4] launched in 1962
and 1963, were two of the last ocean liners to be built primarily for liner
service across the North Atlantic. Cunard's transatlantic liner, Queen
Elizabeth 2, was also used as a cruise ship.[3] By the early 1970s, many
passenger ships continued their service in cruising. By the first decade of
the 21st century, only a few former ocean liners were still sailing, while
others, like Queen Mary, were preserved as museums or floating hotels. After
the retirement of the Queen Elizabeth 2 in 2008, the only ocean liner in
service was Queen Mary 2, used for both point-to-point line voyages and for
cruising."_

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_liner#Decline_of_long-
dis...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_liner#Decline_of_long-
distance_line_voyages)

~~~
mbrubeck
There are a few private ferry companies with international routes from the
U.S... to Canada: [https://cohoferry.com/](https://cohoferry.com/)

(Of course this is just trivia and should not distract from the real point,
which is that air travel has no real competition for a great number of routes,
and the US government is increasingly restricting other forms of travel
anyways.)

~~~
colomon
My hometown example:
[http://www.bluewaterferry.com/](http://www.bluewaterferry.com/)

At the same time, isn't crossing the border firmly established as a
"privilege"? In the good old days (ie a decade ago) you could just hop across
the border pretty freely, but today you are required to have a passport or
enhanced driver's license. Even fishing on the other side of the river
(something my dad probably did at least four times a week when I was a kid)
now has ludicrous reporting requirements, like calling customs via a landline
to report you've crossed the border.

~~~
kd0amg
I was under the impression that the "privilege" in a border crossing was
entering the destination country (and thus to be granted or not according to
the destination country's will) rather than leaving the source country. This
is what we dislike about the Berlin Wall and similar things, right?

------
vkou
I simply do not understand what kind of threat a person can pose, that makes
it impossible for them to safely board an aircraft - after an 'enhanced'
search. What harm could they possibly cause on a plane, that they couldn't on
a train, a bus, or a movie theater?

The existence of this Kafka-esque list is mind-boggling.

~~~
jlgreco
It is important to realize that the purpose of the list is not really threat
mitigation.

~~~
vkou
What is it, then? Protecting the Government from Americans exercising their
(Constitutional, and UN) right to Freedom of Movement?

Oh. Right. It's "Doing something." For the sake of the children, no doubt.

~~~
jevinskie
Do we have a Constitutional right to freedom of movement? Travel? Are the two
any different? Why do I have to agree to involuntary sobriety checks
(searches, IMHO) if I get a drivers license?

I would like to think that I have these rights already defined or that they
are defined under the Ninth Amendment. Given the current political climate, I
am afraid that they are not.

~~~
whafro
I'd argue that there's a difference between the ability to move/travel and the
ability to operate a vehicle (car/plane/etc). Operating a multi-ton missile
puts others in danger if you don't know what you're doing, while sitting on a
Greyhound bus as a passenger requires no significant training.

~~~
omarali
Ironically, US citizens on the no fly list could still get a pilot's license
[http://cnsnews.com/news/article/tsa-us-citizen-who-no-fly-
li...](http://cnsnews.com/news/article/tsa-us-citizen-who-no-fly-list-could-
commence-flight-training)

~~~
techdragon
And this is where it gets all farcical.

------
tghw
Somewhere along the way, we decided that the threat of terrorism outweighed
our constitutional rights. In the heat of the moment after 9/11, it may have
seemed right (to some), but the further we get from the event, the more people
are starting to see that there is a problem.

These right should not be abridged for any reason. That, or they are not
rights.

------
jrockway
I've never thought about the issue of international air travel, but yes, I
agree with the court. When there's no alternative, you need due process. (Even
when there is, due process is always nice to have when you declare yourself "
_the_ " democracy for others to emulate.)

As I write the reply, I am becoming even more angry that the government can
restrict one's activities without any judicial oversight. It's such a simple
"check and balance" to add and it's one that makes people really happy. How
dumb could you be to try and take away people's rights without even
implementing the simplest possible administrative hearing?

~~~
InXorWeTrust
My American Government put a definition of democracy in a way that I feel is
important here:

Democracy is government for the people, by the people, held accountable by the
people.

This is not democracy. There is no due process, there is seemingly no way to
appeal, and nobody is held accountable for any decisions for this list, right
or wrong.

~~~
rquantz
And yet, here we are seeing the no-fly list practice come under judicial
review. Things went further than they should have, but ultimately the system
may eventually work the way it is supposed to.

------
Steko
A related ruling earlier this year by Judge Alsup (of Oracle v Google fame)
involving a Stanford graduate student:

[http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Secret-no-fly-
evidence...](http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Secret-no-fly-evidence-
rejected-by-judge-4180923.php)

------
ilaksh
(The comma key on my keyboard is not working right sorry).

Just before I went on vacation recently I was about to make a political
comment online that was very critical of the US. I did not make the comment
because I was afraid I would be put on a no-fly list and not be able to
travel.

When I was about to board the plane I was questioned repeatedly by Customs/DHS
agents in a way that was extremely stressful and somewhat humiliating. I
believe that they violated my constitutional rights (and if not then perhaps
we need another amendment to the constitution).

I had already been asked the same questions about where I was going and why by
at least two different people. Now I was almost to the ramp to get on the jet
and I think they could tell I was frustrated to be asked the same questions
again. So since I was frustrated or for whatever reason they decided to
basically interrogate me on the spot even though I kept telling them to please
go ahead and search my bags. They wanted to know what I did and wanted details
of my vacation. When I told them I was a software engineer they seemed to not
believe me and asked for more details about what a software engineer does.
Basically seemed to be accusing me of being a drug dealer or something.

I became angry. I think because I was angry they decided to demand the name of
the company I worked for and the name of my manager. I also had told them that
I was staying with a friend in this other country and they demanded that I
give them her name as well. It seemed to me that unless I gave them this
information I would not be allowed to board the plane. Even when they pulled
the contract out of my bag that had the same company name I had given them
they did not apologize. I really hope they did not contact my boss who is the
CTO of the company. I know they did not contact my friend. Regardless getting
a call from DHS about me could have affected the relationship with this
company.

It seemed that basically I was being held back and questioned because I was
angry and not submissive. It was not until I made a few statements that were
more submissive and actually pleading that I was allowed to go.

I was the last person to board the jet. The actual flight which was something
like 12 hours and then a stop and another 7 hours was actually fairly
enjoyable for me. However the constant questioning and searching in the
airports especially in the US was so stressful humiliating and generally
horrible that I will certainly avoid flying as much as possible. I actually
wonder if there is some group that just generally wants to discourage people
from flying?

------
anovikov
No-fly list is a gross violation of basic human rights; i can't imagine why a
relatively conservative U.S. society tolerate that. Worst part of it is that
the airlines are private, government should not be able to tell private
enterprises who can be their client and who can't. For (real or imaginary)
government-controlled airlines, they are OK. I still doubt they do much to
counter terrorism, every self-respecting terrorist should have a few fake
passports anyways. More of a good tool for bullying dissidents.

As for air travel security overall, i am starting to think what we have in
this field now is about what terrorists wanted to achieve: a gross
overreaction based on panic.

~~~
anovikov
Just of curiosity, does no-fly lists apply to private jet passengers? I know
that no TSA checks apply for them.

~~~
omarali
Last time I checked they didn't apply to private jets flying within the US but
do apply to international flights.

~~~
anovikov
This system must be taken down as soon as possible. There are too many
indications that U.S. is no longer a free country. I'd hate go living there
and happy that i've settled in Europe, even while i hate socialism. It's not
like i feel i had a big chance getting in a no-fly list, i am a law-abiding
person with little political activity, neither terrorist nor dissident. What
bugs is me is how people tolerate this, having a lot of ways to protest. That
would be natural in Europe where people are nihilist and never trusted
governments much, nor they are patriotic (hard to be patriotic when a
particular government of a country you live in has little control of you
because they delegated too much to Brussels, and there is no common 'European'
national identity yet - must be like U.S. in 1790s). But the Americans who
claimed to be 'free and brave'?

Even in Russia people's rights are not as easily taken away. Mr. Putin's
regime may be all corrupt and cleptocratic, but makes very little if any
pressure on individual freedoms, and with reason because protests have been
violent. People don't care much about officials stealing oil money, but do
care about pressure on themselves.

~~~
techdragon
Tell that 'Even in Russia people's rights are not as easily taken away.' stuff
to anyone that is gay, bisexual, or their close friends.

~~~
anovikov
This is more of PR stuff. I know a lot of gays in Russia and my former gf is
bisexual so i know a few lesbians, too. They are doing just fine in big
cities. And i doubt Mr. Putin has powers to make them feel safe in the
countryside... I admit the problem, but it the problem is population not
government.

------
csense
From the PDF linked in the article, several people were told they could get
off the list by becoming informants:

> An FBI agent...told him the only way to get off the No Fly List was to "talk
> to us."

It is very troubling to me that the government is not merely using the list as
a shield to protect a plane by keeping out people who would pose a physical
danger to it, but using the denial of air travel as a stick to beat people
into informing on others.

To me, this scenario sounds plausible: The government finds people with
Islamic names or innocent connections to the Middle East, puts them on the no-
fly list and interrogates them whenever they come to the airport. Some of them
give in to the government's pressure -- "find us some terrorists or you'll
never be able to see your family overseas again" is not an easy offer to
refuse.

Of course if the person doesn't know of any actual terrorists, the only to be
allowed on the plane would be to make some up, or name innocent people they
simply don't like or don't know well.

So basically lots of innocent people get harrassed by the government denying
them international travel, while the government wastes investigators' time and
taxpayer dollars pursuing entirely fictional leads from informants with no
connection to actual terrorists, who just want the government off their backs
and are willing to make up tips to accomplish that.

------
D9u
Thank you Judge Brown!

You are my newest hero!

This is the USA, not some tin-hat dictatorship, and it's about time someone
within the federal government acknowledges these facts.

------
zenocon
...or, read The Trial by Franz Kafka for a more apt summary

