
Hong Kong Leader Backs Down on China Law But More Protests Planned - JumpCrisscross
https://www.wsj.com/articles/hong-kong-to-suspend-controversial-extradition-bill-11560579580?mod=rsswn
======
baby
Her discourse is really manipulative, in it you can find your typical attempt
to divide people by focusing on the downside of demonstrations (injuries,
crime, etc.), on the lie that it is a divisible bill, and on fake low numbers
(10,000? more like millions).

This is very concerning. It feels like Hong Kong is doomed to lose more and
more of its independence, and freedom of speech, and freedom of press, as the
years go on.

I have a lot of friends and family there, and as much as I love China and can
understand their politics due to the size of their country, I do not wish Hong
Kong citizens to lose any of their rights.

~~~
rqs
Oh, well, as a "mainlander", I tell you: Hong Kong citizens WILL lose all
their rights, and it will come sooner than you think.

If you watched this protest and all their other protests, it is very easy to
see one thing: Their action is isolated， they don't have the power to unite
people other than themselves. Nobody besides themselves will stand for them.
Nobody in mainland support them, nobody in mainland understand them. Many
mainlanders even developed Schadenfreude when looking at those protests.

(OK, "Nobody" is a bit of over exaggeration, but fairly right if you want to
feel the situation)

Why? Because they are protest only for their own rights, on their own little
land that nobody cares anymore. It's not about greater good, not "making the
entire China democratic". Just "We're Hongkongers, we are special, so we must
have those rights", while don't give a damn when the rest of China is been
stripped clean.

How many HongKonger protested when Xi changed the Constitution? Not this much.

Nobody cares about your right if you don't defend the right of the others. 50
years, if they don't change China for the better, China will change them, as
simple as that.

~~~
hker
Disclosure: Hong Konger

> Why? Because they are protest only for their own rights, on their own little
> land that nobody cares anymore. It's not about greater good, not "making the
> entire China democratic". Just "We're Hongkongers, we are special, so we
> must have those rights", while don't give a damn when the rest of China is
> been stripped clean.

Every year on 4 June, Hong Kong people hold a vigil in Victoria Park for the
Tiananmen square crackdown [1][2], and one main theme of the vigil is to
continue the spirit of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests: to make the entire
China democratic (one of the slogans is 建設民主中國, literally to make China
democratic). In these years, this vigil in Hong Kong is the largest gathering
to demand making the entire China democratic _in the whole world_.

Given that Hong Kong people are doing that every year on 4 June, I think it is
reasonable that in this case--anti extraditions law protests on 9 June and 16
June this year--Hong Kong people are doing something else. But this _does not_
mean that Hong Kong people do not fight for democracy in China or for greater
good--to say the least, this anti extraditions law protest also benefits
foreigners who stay in Hong Kong, or merely in transit.

Also, there are 6000 PLA troops stationed in Hong Kong, and there were cases
of Hong Kong people getting abducted into China for publishing books that some
members of CCP do not like [3]. There are not much more that Hong Kong people
can do for themselves and for mainlanders... if you have better suggestions,
please let us know.

I think they are doing their best.

> Nobody cares about your right if you don't defend the right of the others.

Then what have mainlanders done for Hong Kong?

[1]:
[https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=64+hong+kong+vi...](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=64+hong+kong+vigil)

[2]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorials_for_the_1989_Tiananm...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorials_for_the_1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests)

[3]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances)

~~~
rqs
> Then what have mainlanders done for Hong Kong?

Nothing good, and it will continue to be this way.

And it's NOT out of despision, no, it's simply because it's impossible to do
it safely in China. The political climate here is so toxic and dangerous, it
is unethical to even think to put people on street.

But, one thing HongKongers must understand is, your future is linked with
mainlanders, for better or worse. We may not see each other eye to eye on
other many topics, but this, this is the problem we both facing.

Also, many mainlanders is actually quite supportive about some protests.
Simply search Twitter with the right keyword you can find many
[https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=%E6%9...](https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=%E6%94%AF%E6%8C%81%E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF&src=typd)

~~~
hker
> And it's NOT out of despision, no, it's simply because it's impossible to do
> it safely in China. The political climate here is so toxic and dangerous, it
> is unethical to even think to put people on street.

We, Hong Kong people as a whole, understand that mainlanders face much more
difficulty in speaking up, and we are sympathetic. We definitely _do not_
despise mainlanders for not speaking up in a way that we can see. The current
protest does not mention democratic movement in China because we want to have
a focus: on the extraditions law itself.

> But, one thing HongKongers must understand is, your future is linked with
> mainlanders, for better or worse. We may not see each other eye to eye on
> other many topics, but this, this is the problem we both facing.

Hong Kong people understand and agree that we are facing the same opposition--
the oppressive regime in China--and our time is dated: Hong Kong people are
counting the number of years until 2047, which is 50 years after the handover
of Hong Kong to China in 1997, after which the "two systems" may disappear.
And we are also questioning if the "two systems", the promised anatomy of Hong
Kong from China, may disappear _before_ 2047\. One reason you see so many Hong
Kong people in the current protest, is the fear that if they don't speak up
now, they cannot speak up later.

> Also, many mainlanders is actually quite supportive about some protests.
> Simply search Twitter with the right keyword you can find many
> [https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=%E6%9...](https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=%E6%9..).

We thank the support from mainlanders given their difficulty, and also for the
support from the whole world. Such attention on Hong Kong is very much needed
and appreciated.

I read from your comment in another thread that many mainlanders are trying to
earn money to trade for freedom: better social status in China, or to move to
another country. In fact, I think there are lots of mainlanders who went
overseas, and they are enjoying the freedom and protection in another country.
If we, Hong Kong people and overseas mainlanders, unite together, there is a
lot more that we can do.

Your speaking up here in Hacker News is a good start, and we together can try
to do more.

------
zigzaggy
“Dur­ing her news con­fer­ence, Ms. Lam pinned blame for the chaos on the
gov­ern­ment fail­ing to ef­fec­tively ex­plain to peo­ple why the bill was
needed, rather than con­ced­ing pro­testers’ ar­gu­ments that the law was
flawed.”

Politically savvy approach, but completely ridiculous. HKers understand
exactly what this bill would do to them.

Nothing makes me more angry than bureaucrats with bad intentions treating the
people that pay their salaries like children.

~~~
kombucha11
Well she may be from HK and she gets paid by HK government but we all know
she's a mainland shill and was chosen for that reason. She is 100pc in the
pocket of the mainland government

~~~
randyrand
how did she get elected?

~~~
ForHackernews
The head of Hong Kong is not elected by popular suffrage:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests#Backgr...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests#Background)

> The leader of Hong Kong, the Chief executive, is currently elected by a
> 1200-member Election Committee, though Article 45 of the Basic Law states
> that "the ultimate aim is the selection of the Chief executive by universal
> suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in
> accordance with democratic procedures."

The election committee is more pro-CCP than the general Hong Kong populace,
and the current leader, Carrie Lam, is widely held to be a puppet of Beijing.

~~~
peteretep
It’s worth taking a moment to reflect that the PM in the UK is also not
elected by popular suffrage. The next PM will (literally) be elected by
100,000 members of the Conservative party, not by general election. It’ll be
the second time in recent memory this has happened, after Gordon Brown.

~~~
magnusjonsson
But people elect the parliament and the parliament electthe PM, so it's OK,
there's a chain of accountability to the populace. In HK, the parliament has
only 70 seats of the 1200-member committee, and only 35 of those are
geographical constituents representing the people, the rest are "functional"
constituencies mostly representing businesses). Laws have to be passed by a
majority of the LegCo however, and the Chief Executive can be impeached by a
2/3 majority in the LegCo, so the LegCo is still very important. The main
tragedy is that only 50% of the LegCo is elected democratically.

~~~
vmlinuz
One interesting - and HN-relevant! - point is that the current member of HK's
parliament representing 'Information Technology' is one of the leaders of the
pro-democracy camp, and there was a semi-viral video this week of him
confronting police inside the parliament building. He is one of the few pro-
democracy members among the functional constituencies, and as a Hong Kong
permanent resident and IT professional, I want to make sure I get the papers
sorted to vote for him in the next elections...

------
chews
That is good news for the time being. Let’s hope more comes of this sort of
action.

~~~
tempguy9999
I don't think it is. It seems to me to be playing right into the hands of the
chinese gov't. "we gave you what you want then you protest some more? Clearly
you are liars and deceivers".

Then more violence by the police, completely justified this time because
protesters must be just troublemakers.

It seems a very risky strategy. I would advise against it, or at least think
very carefully, but what do I know.

~~~
confusedhnguy
The protesters get what they want: this is the Chinese government's evil plan.
The protesters couldn't get what they want: this is the Chinese government's
evil plan.

Next time please just say that the Chinese government is evil, save all the
typing.

~~~
tempguy9999
> The protesters get what they want: this is the Chinese government's evil
> plan

The protesters didn't get what they want hence are considering further
protests. Whether they are wise or not was my point.

There's no absolute but...

Imprisoning over a million Uighurs for their religion, and disappearing people
for their political beliefs is evil, so yes, the chinese gov't is evil in that
sense.

Let's look at your prior history:

"Also, the UK is extremely famous for intentionally or unintentionally leaving
a mess when it leaves..."

"Little did I know about all the ignorant and arrogant comments I was about to
see. The West needs a new enemy"

"The average westerners only want to accuse China so they can feel good about
themselves for a while"

Anything to declare?

~~~
confusedhnguy
> Imprisoning over a million Uighurs

Have you tried to image what kind of resource does it need to do this? How
many prisons and guards are needed? How many hospitals, power stations and
other related facilities are required to support this? Where are the satellite
images?

If we are arresting them for their Islamic religion, how come I still have a
large amount of Hui friends hanging out with me just as usual?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people)

Trusting the Western media unconditionally without thinking about how
ridiculous the news are, truly ignorant and arrogant. Surely your media will
never lie or leaving important facts out, like the terrorist attacks happened
in China. But I am sure your media has already painted them as some kind of
freedom fighters.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack)

~~~
tempguy9999
I'll read the links, thanks.

> Have you tried to image what kind of resource does it need to do this?

Imprisoning 0.1% of your population is quite doable

> How many prisons and guards are needed?

Quite a few: "As easy as it may be to silently whisk away thousands of people
to new re-education centres, skyrocketing prisoner would also require a huge
recruitment drive. According to Zenz, from May 2017, counties with large
ethnic minority populations “initiated a wave of recruitments” for so-called
education and training centres". From
<[https://www.businessinsider.com.au/how-many-people-are-
impri...](https://www.businessinsider.com.au/how-many-people-are-imprisoned-
in-xinjiang-china-government-documents-2018-5?nojs=1>)

> Where are the satellite images?

<[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/world/asia/xinjiang-
china...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/world/asia/xinjiang-china-forced-
labor-camps-uighurs.html>)

> how come I still have a large amount of Hui friends hanging out with me just
> as usual

I dunno, you tell me.

> Trusting the Western media unconditionally without thinking about how
> ridiculous the news are, truly ignorant and arrogant

True, and I do try to. You don't seem to be similarly encumbered.

> Surely your media will never lie or leaving important facts out, like the
> terrorist attacks happened in China

So that's why they're imprisoning a million people! for an attack by six
people (which killed 31 people others).

You agree that it's happening now because you've explained why it's happening

> But I am sure your media has already painted them as some kind of freedom
> fighters

They have not.

By the way, who do you work for?

~~~
confusedhnguy
So now I am a wumao right? If someone disagrees with the Western media, just
say he/she is a wumao and you automatically win, how convenient.

The image in your link makes me laugh. I can do the same, just get an image of
an Amazon fulfillment center and say it is holding thousands of supporters of
Edward Snowden against their will.

> I dunno, you tell me.

Because we don't arrest people for their religions.

It's not just 31 people btw.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_rio...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_riots)

If you don't think your media could lie, there is nothing I can do.

~~~
tempguy9999
> So now I am a wumao right?

Odd. Most westerners wouldn't have that word to hand. I myself was trying and
failing to remember it.

But to answer the question, I asked, I did not accuse. And you did not answer.
Why?

> The image in your link makes me laugh

You asked for evidence. It's evidence, not proof because pix can be faked, I
agree. But anything I put in front of you you can dismiss as fake so what can
I do - specifically, what do you want?

> Because we don't arrest people for their religions.

Seems you do, and put them in giant camps. And you explained why with all the
links you post.

> it's not just 31 people btw

Re this link, of course it's more than 6, but the link you gave was to that
specific attack in which 6 people were killed. Which I acknowledged. Don't
fudge things.

And you have not denied that the crackdown on Uighurs occurred, and you
yourself gave the reason why - so you don't deny any of this.

I don't think you are thinking for yourself, as you suggest me of not doing,
and you have not said who you work for. Which is interesting.

~~~
dang
I don't mean to pick on you personally at all, but I have to reply to you a
third time in this thread.

This comment not only broke the site guidelines terribly, it became aggressive
enough to count as harrassment. You simply can't bully another user like that
on HN. We ban people for that.

Let's look at the larger picture for a minute. Geopolitics between China and
the West have taken a polarizing turn. Hacker News' audience is highly
international but majority Western, so most users here identify with one side
of the story. That's natural, but it means that people representing the other
side are in a minority position. No matter how wrong you think their position
is, you and other HN users need to treat the people you're arguing with
respectfully. Otherwise we get a mob dynamic, which is vastly more destructive
to HN than comments being wrong about China—and unfortunately there has been a
lot of it lately. HN users who have a Chinese background, or have lived in
China and so on, have a right to present their side of the story without being
accused of being spies or foreign agents and run out of town. The site
guidelines ask you to " _assume good faith_ " for good reason: when people
don't, it turns a functioning community into a tire fire.

Our experience with the issue of astroturfing is that internet users are all
too eager to imagine it about commenters they just happen to disagree with.
Having imagined it they then feel entitled to sling the accusation to twist
the knife a bit further in an argument. That's not ok. If you're genuinely
concerned about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com so we can look into it. But
it's not ok to casually insinuate it in the threads: most of the time there's
no evidence for it, and the accusation is a powerful poison in its own right.

If you'd please review
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
and stick to the spirit of this site when posting here, we'd be grateful.

------
ETHisso2017
I'm impressed, this is much more responsive than how Macron has handled the
gilets jaunes.

~~~
elefanten
One can't really compare a democratically elected president bound by rule of
law and various balances to a totalitarian puppet.

~~~
ETHisso2017
Exactly my point, we usually expect democratically elected leaders to be more
responsive to protests than autocrats.

------
heraclius
A notice of no objection for Sunday’s march has been issued.¹

1\.
[https://www.police.gov.hk/info/doc/nono/POERN19007953E.pdf](https://www.police.gov.hk/info/doc/nono/POERN19007953E.pdf)

------
onetimemanytime
back down until they find a sneaky way to reintroduce it. IMO, case closed.
Just a matter of time

------
thinkingemote
Political submissions on HN make me want to reinstall the tagger extension so
known trolls or obvious shills can be tracked.

------
acoderhasnoname
As far as i understand the bill doesn't apply to those with political or
religious offense. what are these people protest against?

~~~
agent00f
These types of protests are largely encouraged by the West to deepen division
within it's enemies, same as with sunni/shiites in the middle east, or
gop/democrats by the Russians. You can tell because the West didn't give a
single shit when hk wasn't democratically ruled by the Brits, but now
democracy there is headline propaganda.

~~~
magnusjonsson
The PRC didn't exactly cooperate when the UK wanted to introduce democratic
measures in HK well before the handover.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong_Kong#Under_British_rule)

~~~
throwaway44327
The UK only tried to introduce it after they knew they couldn’t hold on to
Hong Kong anymore. So they did it out of spite.

But the UK did try to convince Portugal not to offer the people of Macau
citizenship, because they didn’t want to do the same for the people of Hong
Kong.

