
Uyghurs in Xinjiang – Onward to the Inevitable - paulorlando
https://unintendedconsequenc.es/uyghurs-xinjiang-onward-to-the-inevitable/
======
topkai22
Wonderful article, but I reject the conclusion that the mass internments and
violence were inevitable on principle. Ultimately, the decisions that lead to
these outcomes are made by people, people who should be able to say "we've
seen this script before, and I don't like where it is going."

If we should have learned anything from the first half of the 20th century is
that simply accepting the systematic subjegation of minorty groups can lead to
horrific outcomes. For a while in the late 20th century, it felt like these
sorts of actions were beyond realpolitik and there would be true international
condemnation and shame. I wish those days were still with us.

~~~
chibg10
> For a while in the late 20th century, it felt like these sorts of actions
> were beyond realpolitik and there would be true international condemnation
> and shame. I wish those days were still with us.

It's personally been very eye-opening for me over the past decade to see just
how much the size of a country's economy can wielded as club to silence
international opposition and how easily the international community goes along
with it. I was always aware intellectually that the world revolves around
economics/business/trade interests, but seeing so many otherwise
liberal/progressive countries remain conspicuously silent in so many areas
where retaliation from Beijing is virtually assured has really been both
disappointing and sort of amazing to watch at the same time.

~~~
realusername
> It's personally been very eye-opening for me over the past decade to see
> just how much the size of a country's economy can wielded as club to silence
> international opposition and how easily the international community goes
> along with it

That's the big shift occurring since the end of WWII. Countries lost power and
influence to businesses & companies, every decade it's been more and more
visible until the situation of today.

~~~
Sniffnoy
But it's not Chinese companies that go around making these threats -- it's the
Chinese government with their ability to control those companies or cut off
access to them. Same old monopoly on violence that's doing this, just wielded
against your trading partners rather than you directly.

~~~
realusername
> But it's not Chinese companies that go around making these threats -- it's
> the Chinese government with their ability to control those companies or cut
> off access to them

In China, there's not much difference between the big companies and the
government anyway.

~~~
Sniffnoy
The point is that refusing to trade with someone because they said something
you don't like is not a good way to make money, and as such, one way or
another, companies wouldn't take such measures were it not for the
government's influence, regardless of the precise means of operation of that
influence. If it were like you say, we'd see the influence of the companies
undoing such government policies so that they can be unrestricted in their
trade and make more money. That's not what we see. (Or likely we see it in
other areas, but it's clear which way the influence runs in this one.)

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_cs2017_
I wonder what the Chinese government's long term plan is.

Do they expect to just continue on with this heavily antagonistic relationship
with the Uyghurs forever? Wouldn't that cause an increasing risk of some kind
of an uprising?

Or do they expect that after a generation or so, the Uyghurs will largely
assimilate into the Han culture? Wouldn't that require a lot more subtle and
delicate policy? In any case, I really doubt it's realistic; if it was, I'd
think it would have already been done. Also, the example of the former USSR
suggests that even in a highly authoritarian and centralized country, ethnic
tensions remain.

~~~
xkcd-sucks
Probably the latter. It's called "Hanification" 汉化, "han hua" where "han"
refers to the Han ethnicity (not Chinese national identity which would instead
be "zhong" 中). "Hua" means conversion. The phrase has existed for a very long
time and it is an idea that people treat "seriously" like you see it in
officially sanctioned writing

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sverige
The observation that the cultural distance between the author and Uyghurs is
less than that between the author and Han Chinese rings true for me. I've
never been to China, but I've had a similar sense of the distance with Chinese
and Muslim friends here in the U.S., even though theoretically I "should" feel
closer culturally to my Chinese friends with whom I share a common religion.
Very interesting indeed.

~~~
mirimir
Based on TFA, it's pretty clear that Uyghurs and Western Europeans are far
more similar than either is to Han Chinese. By appearance, which more-or-less
means genetics. And by religion and culture, both Uyghurs and Western
Europeans having been Judeo-Christian for centuries.

But anyway, it'd be better if Xinjiang were independent. Or even if it had
been occupied by Russia, as the "stans" and Mongolia were. But so it goes.

And arguably, if there were some area, occupied by China, that was populated
largely by Jews or Slavs or some other Western European ethnic group, they'd
be just as screwed as the Uyghurs are.

Edit: If someone actually has some evidence that TFA is wrong, and that
Buddhist Han Chinese were historically the majority in Xinjiang, please share.
Everything that I've found online does seem to agree.

~~~
nradov
The proper term for the union of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is
"Abrahamic religions".

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions)

~~~
mirimir
Sure. So I just made up a new term. Whatever.

The point is that they're both derivatives of Judaism. Along with some minor
offshoots of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. And a bunch of others that
haven't survived.

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zachguo
FYI, a bit of info rarely covered by Western media. China's attitude towards
Uyghurs in the 20th century was super relaxed. As a result, the number of
mosques grew from 2000 to 22000, Islam population grew rapidly while secular
Uyghurs population shrunk, women started putting on black dresses, and
children no longer went to schools and got educated in mosques instead.
Entering 21st century, Uyghurs extremists bombed a few buses, slaughtered
hundreds of Han civilians in city downtowns, and injured thousands. Then the
CCP started the crackdown, and it's also a main driving factor for
implementing the Great Firewall.

~~~
parsadotsh
Sources?

~~~
zachguo
It's from a few articles written by Chinese think tank to urge greater control
over Xinjiang by central government. Wikipedia covers some major events, but
demographic stats probably don't have English sources.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict)

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zhte415
One hour, 22 upvotes, and disappeared?

I found it carefully written and well worth sharing.

> On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes
> more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the
> answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

~~~
TaylorAlexander
Damn really? I just finished reading and I thought it was really interesting.

~~~
zhte415
I thought very interesting too.

~~~
paulorlando
Thanks. For a while I had been thinking about my experience there and how
things have changed. Glad you liked it.

~~~
sctb
OK, we've turned off the flags and wound back the clock on the post.

~~~
burfog
Maybe you could make something to alert yourself whenever a story appears to
be related to China. Stories about China seem to always get flagged to death
whenever they include anything that could be considered unflattering.

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bitxbitxbitcoin
What on Earth happened to the comments here?

~~~
arduanika
For one thing, 01100011's comment is ambiguous: as in, "This is an off-topic
comment, but <whines about model [sic] dialog>", or "I find this submission to
be off-topic". Charitably, let's say it's the former. Still, the discussion
got off to an acrimonious start.

Submission is clearly on-topic. Country sets up concentration camps; big tech
aids and abets at every turn; Google comes this close to building them a
bespoke censorship machine. Clearly relevant in a technical forum, beyond
merely "gratify[ing] intellectual curiosity". Never forget:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehomag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehomag)

As far as the quantity of downvotes, far be it from me to suggest that a
nationalistic pride and defensiveness might grip the Xi regime's many
apologists.

~~~
ImaCake
Despite the relatively small size of the HN community, there does appear to be
organised action against certain topics here. I often find unusually
contentious comments in threads on Chinese and American policies (seperately).

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intelliderp
Is this the future of genocide? Uninquired about, unmentioned, and forgotten
as soon as it was noticed. I don't really care what Steven Pinker thinks. It
is truly a sad world to live in.

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01100011
Offtopic. I'm now to the point where I reflexively close a tab if a model
dialog pops up and obscures the content. Why do so many sites insist on
annoying their users these days?

~~~
gardnerbickford
To prevent many such bothers you can enable Fanboy's Annoyances list in uBlock
Origin.

Please don't miss the irony of you complaining about full screen modals on an
article discussing xenophobic genocide. You may experience some down votes for
venting your first world problems at a poorly chosen time.

~~~
yorwba
It's interesting that "genocide" is the term you chose, when the mass killings
haven't started yet. Maybe it's because that feels like the inevitable outcome
of the current situation, just as the internment camps were the inevitable
outcome of the apartheid-like segregated society described in the article?

~~~
dx87
Genocide is any attempt to destroy a group of people or their culture. Killing
is one method of commiting genocide, but imprisoning members of a culture in
an attempt to destroy that culture is also considered genocide.

~~~
chr1
Where did you find a definition about the culture? Searching genocide on
google brings up only definitions including killing, and the word itself means
killing people not culture.

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peisistratos
It's funny how the USA is in its 17th year of war and occupation and drone
strikes in Afghanistan, about 40 years after it sent Osama bin Laden there to
wage jihad and overthrow the secular government - yet we hear not about that
in the West, but about something we have almost nothing to do with and have no
control over - how the Chinese are treating what in US parlance would be
called Islamic jihadists in their own territory. With an expansiveness to the
definition possibly equivalent to the US's.

~~~
tiredyam
you seem to be very defensive of China's human right violations. I took a peek
at your comments and you aren't doing a good job of hiding it. Either way, to
address your point; people have raised concern. The vast majority of US
citizens want the country to pull out of the unending war and steps are being
made to do so. Chinese citizens have less power to enact change and spread
awareness. Not an apt comparison in the slightest. I would love for you to
respond to some of the other replies and see how you rationalize this to
yourself.

~~~
7uytff42
It’s probably because these threads always devolve into Chinese “people”
bashing.

Israel is doing some horrible things as well, but the conversation around it
is much more muted and balanced. A US politician was even rebuked for talking
about “Israeli political influence” but would have been praised if she warned
about “Chinese influence.”

~~~
yostrovs
Israel is actually constantly debated on US news. Yet Israel doesn't
indoctrinate Palestinians in giant reeducation camps, doesn't control their
speech, and doesn't arrest family for doings of family members, nor punishes
for having faith in Islam. China is a mindless, heartless machine. Comparisons
to Israel are silly.

