
Algorithmic merchandising will erode trust in Amazon - brisance
https://shift.newco.co/2018/10/10/this-is-how-amazon-loses/
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maxxxxx
Amazon has become very unpleasant to me. Their search feels more and more like
a tool for manipulation instead of searching for what I want. For example I am
searching for something and see 20 items. Then I click "sort by price" and
suddenly only 5 items are shown. What has happened to the rest?

It's the same with Google searches. It used to be when I put something into
quotes they would search exactly for that. Now they are often adding other
results that don't even have that phrase. Seems they ae trying to tell me that
although I searched for something they know that I really wanted something
else.

I am starting to feel all these ML tools are mainly used for dis-empowering
and manipulating people instead of empowering them.

~~~
mancerayder
I've noticed the same, especially in Google, but also in media like the "smart
TV" version of apps like Netflix and YouTube, and more (like the Amazon
example).

The Web used to be a place where you "go to stuff." The going to stuff
required knowledge and, well, effort. That limited the web.

Now the Web is a place where stuff "comes to you." Sort of like commercials
"came to you" on broadcast TV every 12 or whatever minutes.

The marketing people and the Googlers would say, "That's a great achievement,
because now we can predict what you're most likely to enjoy [ or buy ] and
make it easier."

The cynics say, whoa, this erodes trust and privacy, and perhaps even the
human psyche which becomes this vessel filled in by data provided by ML-using
corporations.

I'm with the cynics.

~~~
maxxxxx
There is good reason to be cynical considering that the real motivation is to
sell ads and not to provide a good search experience.

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chriselles
I remember being at Amazon in ‘98-99 when we referred to it as predictive
ordering.

This was in reference to the concept of providing just in time delivery of
commodity household consumables with the intent of customers voluntarily
committing to indefinite duration deliveries for basic household needs,
becoming more accurate over time with bigger comparative data sets, and able
to proactively predict household consumable requirements.

Toothpaste, toilet paper, soap, laundry detergent, etc.

If I recall correctly, Amazon only had between 1 and 5 million customers at
the time. Closer to the former than the latter.

It never went anywhere that I’m aware of during my time and tangential
involvement with it.

I really don’t like the idea of behavioural psychology and economics being
mashed up with AI and machine learning to maximise profit targeting me.

It’s bad enough having to engage with and overcome aggressive human
salespeople adept at deflecting objections.

I don’t like being rude to people in the game of kabuki sales theatre.

But I really don’t like the idea of a T1000 Sales Terminator bot that is 5
steps ahead of my objections and preying on my specific personality
vulnerabilities.

I’ve already got approx 100 Kindle book deals sitting unread.

~~~
skybrian
It's easy to save a Kindle book for later by downloading a sample. I never buy
a Kindle book without reading to the end of the sample first. This beats any
savings you would get from deals.

~~~
chriselles
I am the same.

I always check out the preview/sample first.

Then I buy them.

Then it sits in my reading queue.

I purchase books at 10x the rate I can realistically read them.

Now I have a physical library(virtually my entire home) and a virtual.

Someday I’m going to learn guitar as well as read my entire library.

------
sigmaprimus
I too have run into issues with AMZN they started out being great then slowly
but surely they started doing tiny things that have caused me to remove their
bookmarks and unbsubscribe to the daily emails that were drawing me back in.
The last straw was when I ordered a tri-wing tipped screw driver to repair a
WII console, the seller was from China and it took 3 weeks longer for the
package to arrive than the six week estimated delivery time, when I opened the
package it was a regular Philips head driver. I tried to post a review about
the poor service and incorrect item and was blocked from doing so until I went
through the AMZN mediation process, which is totally unacceptable,I should be
able to let other people know about my opinion and experience with a seller
otherwise what is the point of even showing customer reviews?

~~~
arkades
> so until I went through the AMZN mediation process

I had a similar experience recently. Amazon bounced my review for “tone.” I
went back and removed the harshest words (“garbage”), softened the criticisms,
and resubmitted. It’s been weeks and it’s still not up.

At this point, not even fakespot redeems Amazon. What use is filtering out
fake third party reviews if amazon is complicit in inflating the reviews?

~~~
SirYandi
Also, Fakespot is a bit of a slog to use. Manually copying the url for
multiple products can take quite a while. I would be interested in a browser
add on or similar that modified the Amazon search results with Fakespot's
data.

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unimpressive
I nearly clicked away because the authors sheer paranoia made me lose faith in
their point, so I'll paste the punchline here:

"But why not do the math for me? A quick calculation shows that the top bottle
comes out to about 30 cents an ounce – two cents less than the bottom bottle.
Why not show that fact?

This, folks, this is algorithmic merchandising at its finest.

Amazon knows exactly how many clicks it’s going to take for me to reach
shopping fatigue. Not “on average for all shoppers,” or even “on average for
each shopper who’s ever considered a bottle of hydrogen peroxide.” Amazon
knows all of that, of course, but it also knows exactly how long it takes ME
to get fatigued, to enter what I like to call “fuck it” mode. As in, “fuck it,
I’m tired of this bullshit, I want to get back to the rest of my life. I’m
going to buy one of these bottles.”

And because there’s no per-ounce breakdown of the 32-ounce bottle, and because
that makes me suspicious of it, and because hell, who ever needs 32 ounces of
hydrogen peroxide anyway, well, I’m just going to buy the $5 one.

Ca-ching! Amazon just made a nearly seven percent markup on my purchase. It
took five clicks, 15 seconds, and a vast architecture of data and algorithmic
mastery to make that profit."

~~~
MaxBarraclough
Could there be a market for Amazon search engines that work for the buyer,
rather than for Amazon?

~~~
maxxxxx
Google product search could be that but I see a lot of weird behavior there
too.

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falcolas
I have some worse news for the author - they overpaid by nearly 17¢ per oz,
not 2¢.

The top is a _two pack_ of 32oz bottles for a total of 64oz, coming in at just
over 15¢ per oz.

This does nothing, of course, to discount the author's claims; if anything it
makes it worse. Why isn't the quantity and per-object measure displayed
clearly? Why do we have to rely on often subjective readings of item titles to
figure out what they really are?

~~~
mtnGoat
i deal with product data all day long, tens of millions of SKUSs.

in the case of two bottles you are buying one SKU that contains two
somethings, that each also contain 32 of something.

in the case of one bottle you are buying one SKU that contains 16 somethings.

nesting is important and meta data is a pain to parse when its not
standardized in any way.

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matthewaveryusa
Is there any evidence this is true? I just did the same search and got the
same results -- I doubt we have the same fatigue. I think the results are a
mix of incomplete metadata, product confusion within amazon, and various
premiums for various delivery time horizons.

You want it now: 10 bucks,.

you want it bundled as an addon: 5 bucks.

you can wait and have it bundled with other pantry items: 2 bucks.

you have prime fresh: 2 bucks.

His argument is unsubstantiated paranoia. In fact, the "you want it now"
category will _always_ fetch a premium, that's just common logistical sense.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by other things.

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mtnGoat
I feel like this guy was up late and on edge and just wanted to rant about
something, some pretty obvious things were missed in his analysis of Amazons
practices. For instance he appears to have totally missed the fact that the $9
bottle actually was two 32oz bottles, so it was 64oz for $9. His distrust just
cost him a ton of money.

Considering the author also admits to accidentally subscribing to things in
the last. I would say they have a reading and paying attention to detail
problem. :x

~~~
slivym
"A ton of money". It cost him 4 bucks of peroxide he'll never use.

~~~
mtnGoat
add in the time wasted to rant about his own misunderstanding of basic reading
comprehension.

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ikeboy
This is silly. For one, the premise is wrong - Amazon almost certainly makes
more money selling the $9 item than the $5 one.

The oz showing is most likely a fluke because one product has incomplete
metadata (with hundreds of millions of listings, many have incomplete data).

~~~
PMan74
> most likely a fluke

I'd agree, probably not helped by the fact that the $9 item is a 2-pack.

Never ascribe to malice that which is can be explained by stupidity.

Stupidity might be a bit harsh here though.

~~~
mental1896
FWIW I've seen this kind of thing at the local grocery store too. The name
brand price tag reads "39¢/oz" and the generic right next to it reads "$3.79
per each". I can't be certain that it's malicious but it happens often enough
to make me wonder.

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sokoloff
If a hangnail is that bad, the local supermarket or pharmacy seems a more
sensible source for the remedy than Amazon, no?

~~~
corodra
Right? I’m reading this going “wtf, go to the local drug store and grab a
dollar bottle. Lazy twit.”

But point is relatively valid. These days of “custom pricing” due to metrics
and real shady ways of displaying products/information is going to hit a
breaking point. When, I’m not smart enough to forecast. I’m giving it another
USA election or two from gut feeling. But the EU and USA are going to stick
their nose into this at some point. Especially with another social media
fiasco with an election or two. The big tech companies are building their own
gallows and tying their own noose.

And it all started with “we track you to make your experience better”... scary
part, my phone suggested each word to that after track.

------
logfromblammo
I got confused when the author said that a $1.29 bottle of 16oz 3% H2O2 was
cheap. That is literally the price at _every_ brick and mortar store that
sells it. Walgreens: $1.29; CVS: $1.29; Kroger pharmacy: $1.29; Publix
pharmacy: $1.29; Wal-Mart pharmacy: $1.29; Target pharmacy: $1.29 .

Hell, do a web search on "hydrogen peroxide" +"$1.29".

Blain's Farm and Fleet: $1.29; IGA: $1.29; Shop Rite: $1.29 . If you're a
contestant on The Price is Right, and see a 16oz bottle of peroxide, you bid
$1.29, even if the previous contestant bid $1.28 .

It's the rassafrassin' commodity price, dude. And it's a staple household
item.

You never go shopping on Amazon for something like that. Pick it up with your
groceries.

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kels
I don't think this is Amazon trying to trick anyone. Even though it's the same
brand, it's two different sellers. The sellers make the listings, not Amazon.

The reason one shows the price breakdown in ounces and the other doesn't was
because it wasn't set up in the listing to show that.

The shipping time is different because each listing has their stock in
different warehouses.

My biggest gripe with Amazon is the third-party sellers all selling the same
item they're importing from a Chinese company but rebranding it (poorly). As
an example search for gaming headsets and you start to notice that the
headsets being sold under different brand names look exactly the same. If you
look even closer at the images you will see they don't even remove the
original brand name from the headsets themselves.

To me the biggest erode in trust when I search for something and every result
is the same item but rebranded and they're all at different prices with their
own collection of reviews.

I've bought many items on Amazon trying to find the superior version to find
out they're the exact same thing but rebranded.

------
tmaly
I have been a prime member for quite some time, but now I end up doing a
google search for any type of household good that you find could be prime
pantry. In many cases I can find a cheaper option with almost as good pricing.

If you have young kids using diapers, amazon has been one of the most
expensive places. I tend to go to the big box places like costco to get better
deals.

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johnwheeler
Does the guy who wrote this realize the more expensive listing is for a pack
of 2 bottles? I didn’t see him mention that anywhere. It pretty much renders
the second half of his argument useless.

Also, the lack of a per ounce pricing could be more of a programming thing vs
some conspiracy. Maybe amazon doesnt do that when there are multiple items.

~~~
j-c-hewitt
That combined with the hysterical writing style (what, he can't go to Duane
Reade for a bottle if he really does have an infection?) really undermines
what he's saying. If you go to Wal Mart or Duane Reade you will get Equate
(the Walmart house brand) or the Walgreens brand respectively.

Go to an independent pharmacy (of which there are fewer and fewer) and you
will probably get 1-2 choices maximum for hydrogen peroxide which is so low
margin that there aren't many companies that want to invest in branding for
such a commodity product.

This is one of the worst examples if you are complaining about Amazon search
results. One of the more common complaints you'll hear is about generic
headphones. You will get pages of crap unless you restrict the search to
certain models and brands. With Hydrogen Peroxide it looks like ultimately he
got many different choices (more choices than he would have at ______any brick
and mortar store in America __ __ __) at an awesome price.

There are so many better categories to complain about if he wanted to make a
good complaint post.

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deckar01
That very first screenshot shows the sorting set to "featured". "featured"
results literally means "tell me what to buy".

Set the sorting to "lowest price", filter by prime shipping, scroll down until
you see decent reviews, and move on with your life.

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tomc1985
I'm not sure how much of this is "algorithmic merchandising" vs how much of it
is that Amazon's product database is cluttered and teeming with duplicates and
inconsistent data entry.

Also, couldn't he have just, you know, run to the drugstore?

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slivym
Does anyone else find Amazon Fresh put them off from purchasing? I go on
Amazon, see £2 for a product, then find out it's Amazon's stupid subscription
service and then I literally can't buy that product from Amazon because....
all the ones I can actually buy are demonstrably overpriced!

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paulgrant999
You need to read up on the price-fixing by amazon. google "1200 dollar book".

then look up some of the academic research on it.

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amomshad
" The most significant difference, at least in terms of the information
provided to me by Amazon, is the price – the top bottle is nearly twice as
expensive as the bottom one." Its twice the quantity as well...

