
Amazon locks down internal employee communications amid organizing efforts - kevlar1818
https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/29/21240049/amazon-internal-corporate-employee-backlash-email-listservs-worker-activism-coronavirus
======
nimbius
As a former member of the local 701 and a current member of a union, keep
fighting. You start seeing this stuff when the company knows theres a good
chance you'll get a union if you want one.

I once had all of my lunches turned into safety briefings with some slimeball
in a suit lecturing us on the evils of unions for an hour. This prevented us
from discussing unions favorably during our only time off during the day, so
we decided to start an after-work club at the local pool hall. Less
propaganda, more beer and real talk.

Try taking your messages out of the office. Find some place the boss doesnt
control and believe me, this will help a lot. You're still going to get
flyers, phone calls, letters, and even doorstep visitors if you push for a
union but just remember: its all bullshit at this point. Remember why you
wanted to do this, and keep a running list of issues the company has not
addressed. Remember: a union gives you fair bargaining for anything else you
want or need for the company to succeed and you to do your job _in the future_
as well. Some of the handouts now might seem generous but believe me, if you
back down, the company will fire absolutely everyone they can identify as an
organizer that hasnt been let go up till now.

------
crazygringo
> _Internal listservs with more than 500 participants are now required to move
> to a moderated model where a manager must approve any content before its
> distribution, according to emails obtained by Recode._

Google did a similar thing in November [1]. This is starting to feel like a
trend for tech companies reaching a certain level of size/maturity.

Now this may be a contrarian opinion, but I actually think this has the
potential to be a _good_ thing if you're on the side of workers. Here's why.

If you're organizing a union, trying to reveal "evil" projects, or otherwise
trying to be a force for good in the company, as long as you're doing it on
internal message boards everyone's still halfway-careful of what they say, and
big movements/protests are less likely to happen.

But by shutting them down or forcibly moderating them, that will hopefully be
enough of an impetus for employees to start using third-party forums, where
they can "approve" each other through invites, and everyone can speak and
organize freely (and with more anonymity if desired) and accomplish perhaps
far more than they have so far.

As political scientists know, repression of citizens brings short-term
stability at the cost of an increased long-term threat.

Obviously you can't know for sure... but this feels like the kind of thing
that's going to backfire for Amazon (and Google), leading to _more_ and
stronger union organization, not less.

[1]
[https://www.financialexpress.com/industry/technology/googles...](https://www.financialexpress.com/industry/technology/googles-
new-internal-rules-take-hold-employees-complain-of-censorship/1753015/)

------
unethical_ban
>The company told Recode that the moderation policy is not new but that Amazon
has begun enforcement against lists that either weren't following the rules or
had previously been granted exceptions after a "routine audit." An internal
message to employees, obtained by Recode, said the change was to "minimize
disruption to any business-critical email lists."

"We have always had the rule ready, in case we needed to start enforcing it."

------
coronaboi
Don’t understand what the fuss is about. To continue their discussions, Can’t
these employees get on a service like Blind? Yes, amazon throttling such
behaviour is questionable, but why bitch and moan about not being able to use
a company resource when there’s something like Blind available?

------
seemslegit
That's why every workplace should have an off-company mailing list / forum /
group.

Yes even your very employee-friendly workplace with image boards that would
never stoop to those kind of tactics.

------
minimaxir
Note: this was posted last week, and therefore not caused by a Amazon VP
leaving (but perhaps could be partially a cause to the VP leaving)

~~~
floatingatoll
Last week's post (2 comments):

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23024033](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23024033)

------
dang
Url changed from [https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/04/amazon-locks-
dow...](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/04/amazon-locks-down-
internal-employee-communications-amid-organizing-efforts/), which points to
this.

------
toohotatopic
Doesn't this show that the executive layer of Amazon isn't as clever as they
appear? Employees can organize easily on Whatsapp or any other platform. In
that case, Facebook has all the data and Amazon doesn't have any insight.
Facebook then can hire any disgruntled but competent employee easily.

The lock down also signals weakness and insecurity. Amazon pays at least
market rates and people want to work there. In case of a strike, they can hire
new people with no training because workers essentially shop all day, a skill
that is ubiquitously available

What do they fear?

~~~
jm4
I don't find that to be an entirely realistic scenario, but we can talk
hypotheticals. As a company owner, I would welcome the opportunity for
employees to quit as an alternative to unionizing. Having your problem quit
for another job before you have to fire them is awesome. Having a competitor
actively recruit your problem employees? That's killing two birds with one
stone. You have to just laugh when it happens. It's great.

As for discouraging unionizing via official company communication media, it
probably has more to do with discovery and access than wanting to block the
communication altogether. Of course they realize people can use Whatsapp,
text, online forum, etc. The thing is there needs to be a way to discover a
large community of workers on some other platform. That's much harder than
going through a company directory or blasting out emails to entire divisions.
They don't want to provide easy discovery and access to people who would
potentially join a union.

------
floatingatoll
The original article by Recode contains more information than the Ars reblog
of it:

[https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/29/21240049/amazon-
interna...](https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/29/21240049/amazon-internal-
corporate-employee-backlash-email-listservs-worker-activism-coronavirus)

~~~
dang
Changed now. Thanks!

------
danbolt
Is It true that Amazon’s internal chat tool doesn’t have as much support for
“fun chat” stuff like stickers and emoji? I’ve been hearing along the
grapevine.

------
kevlar1818
@dang + HN moderators: Why did you change my link? I originally linked to the
ArsTechnica article. And why was it removed from the front page?

~~~
rrrrrrrrrrrryan
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23071016](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23071016)

~~~
kevlar1818
Thanks for pointing that out. I dislike this moderation strategy, but I'll
respect it.

------
mlcrypto
To avoid PIP at Amazon you just gotta be more productive than the people on
those internal discussion forums. And they wonder why they're getting pushed
out. Leave the trolling for after work

------
justanotherhn
Does the top management at Amazon know this us ultimately a futile cause? What
are they trying to do? Delay efforts until more on their delivery business is
automated? If anyone has an idea please let me know.

~~~
revicon
What makes you think this is a futile cause? Union protections are at an all
time low right now, it's likely they can continue suppressing employee
organization if they kill lines of communication. Especially with the historic
high unemployment rates hitting middle america right now.

------
greendave
Would be interesting to see a comparison of Amazon's tactics and Walmart's.
Traditionally Walmart has gotten a lot of bad press for its working conditions
and its destruction of small businesses across the US. Amazon has thusfar had
far less scrutiny.

~~~
easytiger
> Amazon has thusfar had far less scrutiny.

Are you quite serious?

~~~
MattGaiser
Scrutiny is probably the wrong word, but Amazon faces far less practical
opposition compared to Walmart.

With Walmart, people will both be mad at them and oppose their stores,
warehouses, etc.

With Amazon, anger stops at stage 1 usually.

------
Pfhreak
tl;dr: Email lists with 500+ people must be moderated and have a manager
moderate them. (It's unclear if manager means 'manages employees' or 'manages
email list'.)

This seems pretty draconian to me, if it's true.

~~~
jm4
Not really. Big email lists like that generate tons of spam. What Amazon is
doing is presumably to block unionization efforts, but, frankly, what's
surprising is that they didn't have a control like this in place already. I
work for a much smaller company than Amazon (without a chance of a union ever
forming) and we don't let just anyone blast out emails to hundreds of people.
We used to and it drove everyone nuts. People were selling their event
tickets, giving traffic updates, offering up pets for adoption, etc. It's
ridiculous. We had one list that was generating 100+ emails a day that were
irrelevant to most of the people on the list. Every sizable list has an
"owner" who controls access to send to the list. We have other channels like
an area on the intranet where people can post these broadcast kinds of
messages so it won't clog up people's inboxes. I thought most large companies
did this.

~~~
Pfhreak
Amazon has (had?) a pretty vibrant culture of "*-interest @" mailing lists.
Whether it's videogames or whatever, people are used to using those lists and
more or less self regulating.

------
robrenaud
A third party service that validates all members are part of a
company/organization, and then allows anonymous postings viewable to just
those validated members would be very useful, IMO.

There is good reason to have these discussions in a place where Amazon's
management is not in control.

~~~
Jimpulse
My company didn't have a large presence on there, but the app Blind seems to
fit the bill.

~~~
mistersquid
> Blind seems to fit the bill

Blind is based in South Korea. (Disclosure: one of my parents is ethnically
South Korean, and I have very high regard for South Korea and its citizens.)

Given the stakes involved with workplace organizing and the opacity (from a
legal perspective) of a South Korea-based business, Blind may not be the right
platform.

At the very least, some US workers may be reluctant to open up on a platform
not subject to US labor law.

------
foob4r
Seems like Amazon's getting desperate now. Too bad the US government is the
weakest in decades it's been to do something for the workers.

~~~
da_chicken
It wouldn't matter. The current administration is from a party whose platform
is as anti-labor as their opposition was under Woodrow Wilson. Even if we had
a strong Federal government right now, it would be interested in aiding
_Amazon_ , not it's workforce.

As it is I fully expect to hear talking points that "responsible" workers
wouldn't strike or try to organize, or that there should be a law against
unionization during national emergencies.

~~~
rednerrus
Trump hates Bezos enough to try to shut USPS to get to him. I'm sure he'd love
to get the double whammy of screwing over Bezos and a boost from working class
voters in swing states.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
If that's how he feels personally, his appointments to the National Labor
Relations Board don't show it. And if it would take legislation, he'd never
get it past Mitch McConnell.

~~~
kevingadd
Your first point aside, Republicans have been trying to privatize the USPS for
decades (though it's definitely the case that many Democrats are in favor of
this too for whatever reason). The White House has been actively rejecting the
idea of providing aid to the USPS over the last month or two despite the fact
that the situation has demolished their revenues.

I think it's at least quite plausible that the WH could try to do this since
it aligns with their priorities, and that McConnell would be fine with it. The
House, probably not.

------
redmattred
Here is the page to cancel your Amazon Prime membership:
[https://www.amazon.com/mc/pipelines/cancellation](https://www.amazon.com/mc/pipelines/cancellation)

~~~
jordache
i don't understand this movement.

If there is a purity test, to gauge your alignment with the internal company
rules associated with every goods + service you rely on, then there needs to
be transparency across the entire world economic landscape.

Why cherry pick? Just because media decided to bring it to your attention?

So you canceled Amazon Prime, everything else in your life was produced by
some other entity. Do you go insane because you haven't vetted those sources?

~~~
rdiddly
There's no burden of consistency that anybody needs to meet. I can boycott
Amazon because I like purple and they don't have it in their logo. And then
tomorrow decide to continue the boycott because it's a cloudy day and my dog
has fleas.

If you want a better reason, it can be as simple as, Amazon is the 13th-
biggest corporation in the world by revenue
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_by_r...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_by_revenue)),
and someone simply doesn't want to confer any further advantage to them or
support that level of wealth concentration.

It's not cherry-picking unless you know that's the only company being avoided.
In my case I've significantly cut my direct reliance on the top 12, quite
unintentionally, just by

\- not shopping at WalMart

\- not living in China

\- not owning/driving a car

\- not using Apple products, and ironically

\- using Amazon

Yep that's right, ordering from Amazon keeps me from being tempted to fall
back on numbers 3, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 which are all petroleum and car
companies. I guess I'm going on the theory that a delivery truck making the
rounds to 20 people is more efficient and less damaging than 20 people driving
their own cars to various stores. On the other hand, if it's me we're talking
about, I would be biking to the store. So already I'm not totally consistent,
and I might be further inconsistent tomorrow and decide to boycott Amazon,
especially if they don't get their act together on the labor side!

------
outside1234
Why does anyone work there? What a nightmare.

~~~
PopeDotNinja
If you figure out how to find an employer without issues, please let me know.

~~~
tjr225
Just because no company is perfect doesn't mean some aren't worse than others.

------
retrac
Some comments here really had me scratching my head. Remember, it's not just
engineers, code monkeys and managers at Amazon.

The majority of their employees are unskilled labour. Warehouse workers and
delivery drivers. An Amazon warehouse worker in Canada makes just a little
more than minimum wage. Even if it might be a nice company to work for if
you're in an office, it may be a very different reality for the majority of
workers.

~~~
rochester46
Canadian minimum wage is relatively high (and your statement is only true for
Ontario, btw. In other parts of Canada, Amazon warehouse worker minimum pay is
150% minimum wage). When viewed through the lens of the reality that is the
American workforce, things look very differently.

In the US, Amazon warehouse workers make more than double the federal minimum
wage. They make, at minimum, more than double the wage of an average McDonalds
worker. They make more than Starbucks store workers, more than most
construction workers. Even in Canada, Amazon warehouse workers make more than
your average Tim Hortons worker.

Warehouse workers also get the same health insurance that Amazon SWEs get,
which is better health insurance _by far_ than even most white-collar American
workers have.

>The majority of their employees are unskilled labour.

Unskilled laborers getting double minimum wage and great benefits seems to me
to be a _good_ thing for society. It baffles me that people are trying to
decry this.

~~~
retrac
If that's the case and they're making ~$21 CAD an hour, then Amazon's American
warehouse workers are paid considerably more than they are in Canada despite
the US having a lower cost of living. At least in my local context, their
behaviour doesn't seem to be something worth lauding. It's just another
grueling underpaid warehouse job. With a union-busting employer.

~~~
forgotmylogin2
Then quit and find a job with better pay. My guess is most of them can't
because they're already getting the market rate for unskilled labor.

~~~
klyrs
Right. Quitting to find a "better job" means swirling around the bottom of the
puddle. Standing up and bargaining for better working conditions at your place
of work has historically been shown to be more effective. Labor movements
brought us modern luxuries such as the weekend, the end of child labor, etc.
Folks didn't make that happen by quitting and finding a better job.

------
WilliamEdward
Amazon is interesting because there is a rift in the company; on one side you
have upper middle class engineers, and on the other working class warehouse
labourers.

It's easy to dismiss union organisation coming from the former side, but the
real tragedy is the thousands of workers working in dangerous conditions. They
won't get their union.

~~~
euix
Yea this something I realized recently with the VP guy leaving. As a upper-
middle elitist working engineering/ML/management how do you reconcile the
cognitive dissonance? I have been considering a career changing and one of the
things is studying for interviews at the FAANGS and I have trouble working for
the "man" as it is and this whole affair is just turning me off more.

~~~
ForHackernews
This isn't that hard: Just don't work for the evil ones! If their recruiters
contact you, tell them why.

There are plenty of non-evil companies that will pay you well to do
interesting work.

Even in your "FAANG" list, Netflix just makes entertaining videos. Apple makes
pleasantly overpriced hardware and competes on privacy in software.

Apply to them, instead of ad-tech and sweatshops-as-a-service.

~~~
wgerard
Just to play devil's advocate a little:

You should look up some of the ethical issues around cobalt mining [1], which
Apple is at least indirectly complicit in.

Netflix famously made their culture documents transparent to much derision
about their workplace being an unhealthy competitive environment. Relatedly,
they're also arguably the most famous progenitor of the "unlimited-vacation-
but-don't-actually-take-it-or-else" workplace cliche.

1: [https://www.theguardian.com/global-
development/2019/dec/16/a...](https://www.theguardian.com/global-
development/2019/dec/16/apple-and-google-named-in-us-lawsuit-over-congolese-
child-cobalt-mining-deaths)

~~~
ForHackernews
Maybe we should revise this to "try to work for companies that are only
indirectly (rather than directly) evil"

