

Wehrmacht Veterans Created a Secret Army in West Germany - edmccard
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/wehrmacht-veterans-created-a-secret-army-in-west-germany-a-969015.html

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stcredzero
The pre WWII, much of what was to become the German military of WWII was
secret and unofficial, so there is a precedent here that makes it
understandable how something so extraordinary could come about. It's also an
alarming precedent, given that precedent's association with the Nazi regime.
However, it's also quite understandable in the context of the atrocities
experienced by the Germans as the Soviet military rolled in from the east.
Those in turn are also understandable, given what the Germans did on their way
in to the USSR.

War only produces more war.

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CmonDev
"atrocities experienced by the Germans as the Soviet military rolled in from
the east" \- don't invade places then. 'Atrocity' is when someone exterminates
people just to clear the land. The word you were looking for is 'retribution'.

~~~
mcv
Exterminating people to clear the land is called "genocide" (and it's one of
the most severe forms of genocide), which is only one of many different kinds
of atrocities. Atrocities can and often do occur in regular warfare, and they
definitely happened on both sides on the eastern front in WW2.

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arcadeparade
There were plenty more secret armies:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio)

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_ak
Well, Gladio was an "official" secret army started by the NATO, but in this
case, a bunch of veterans got together to form a secret army with no
supervision at all. Only in 1951, the German BND resp. its predecessor
organization, Organisation Gehlen, is instructed to observe and control them.
Organisation Gehlen started as a German CIA unit with former Wehrmacht and SS
officers. It is a prime example how the old Nazi elites were essentially still
in control after World War 2, and how they could essentially do as they place.

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stcredzero
"old Nazi elites?" It's my understanding that the Nazis were "young turks" in
their day who usurped power from an older military class elite. Of course,
internal politics in the face of being on the losing side of a war and
occupation by foreign powers probably resulted in the subsumption/unification
of those groups into one after WWII.

I don't feel easy with the vilification of patriotism. Such feelings grow from
the natural instincts of people who feel affinity with those from their own
culture and who wish to defend their homes. Any harm done happens when
sociopaths exploit such feelings for their own cruel ambitions.

(Yes, some xenophobia is also involved, which must be counteracted through
education.)

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watwut
Hitler was 44 at the time he took power, so not a youngster. Many original
nazis fought in WWI, so they easily could count as old old Nazi elite by the
time WWII ended.

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stcredzero
"Young Turk" is figurative. He also wasn't a Turk.

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trhway
if one looks at the "people uprising" in eastern Ukraine, the one would wonder
how many of these people were "sleepers" contacted and organized by Russian
special services well before the uprising.

Note: i'm a Russian (and like many Russians do have genuine Ukranian blood,
not just simply something like relatives living there) and, unfortunately,
have no choice but to support the "people uprising" as these "green little
men" is the only hope of Russian speaking population in eastern Ukraine
against "trains of friendship" of Ukranian nationalists descending on their
towns and villages.

~~~
adrenalinup
>have no choice but to support the "people uprising" as these "green little
men" is the only hope of Russian speaking population in eastern Ukraine
against "trains of friendship" of Ukranian nationalists descending on their
towns and villages.

Could you please elaborate why you have "no choice" ? How exactly did
Ukrainians threatened the Russian people in Ukraine so you agree on war ?
Wasn't a Yanukovych a pro-russian president ? Why not simply wait for an
election as a democratic country ? Why support those who want war and war of
the nations ?

This is not a war of two countries it's a war of two nations that share the
same roots. If the war is the last option Russia had, they are indeed very
disparate. I don't think they are in need of support, they're more in need of
mourning.

Violence is the weapon of the weak said the great Gandhi. Even when violence
appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
-- Gandhi How many died already ? In name of what ? Stupidsapiens. If we could
all once agree to stop the violence, stop talking politics and more about how
we can evolve and improve our lives and live in peace, that would be a
tremendous achievement..

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trhway
>Could you please elaborate why you have "no choice" ? How exactly did
Ukrainians threatened the Russian people in Ukraine so you agree on war ?

why war? I just support the right of people to take power in their hands and
form their own state when their basic rights are violated or not protected by
the current state they reside in. United States two centuries ago, colonial
Africa 60-40 years ago, Kosovo, South Sudan,... Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine,... .
If it were my decision Chechnya would be separate today.

>Wasn't a Yanukovych a pro-russian president ? Why not simply wait for an
election as a democratic country ?

exactly. Yanukovich (while being complete trash, not that other politicians
there are any better though) was democratically elected. What would be the
point of new elections?

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mpclark
I got an unfortunate Google 'accordion' ad at the bottom of that article,
offering me among other things "Research your ancestry", "German WW2 original
items" and, er, "Walk-in showers"

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tormeh
Wow, I don't know if there's a way to teach the ad algorithm taste, but maybe
it should detect whether the context is positive before it associates two
things for advertisement purposes? Walk-in showers....

