
Dollar vans, NYC’s other transit system - panic
https://queenseagle.com/all/dollar-van-transit-system
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nofinator
A NYC redditor posted a fascinating how-to about Dollar Vans 6 months ago:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/ap4t6k/dont_be_intimid...](https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/ap4t6k/dont_be_intimidated_a_beginners_guide_to_taking/)

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HALtheWise
The model of having large vehicles that pick up a bunch of people, but drop
each person off exactly at their doorstep, is something that has been
repeatedly proposed for self-driving vehicles in the future (by Tesla and
others). I wonder if these dollar vans provide clues about what such a system
could look like at an even larger scale.

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bobthepanda
Most of the reason this works is because vans usually have a mid-range
capacity between a car and a bus (10-20 people). 4-seater cars are not
economical to do like this, and buses are too big to fill up, and when they're
full everyone wants to get off at every stop. The vans with their smaller
capacity fill up fast and then only drive to let people off.

Judging by the way dollar vans and similar minibus manifestations work in
other places I've been to, there are a couple of things to note here:

\- They're not purely pickup/dropoff at the house. They're dropoff at the
house, but to pick up you have to walk to the street where they're all usually
running. And one end of it is a major pickup location; in the case of these
vans, usually a subway station.

\- Because they only drive off when full, they only make trips where one end
of the route is a major pickup location, creating a hub-and-spoke network.
Traveling between spokes is something that these vans do very poorly, because
there aren't nearly as many people doing that.

\- At said major pickup point, they will usually cause major traffic
congestion as they weave in and out of traffic and around each other. Several
cities in South America (e.g. Bogota) replaced minibus-only systems with BRT
or more formalized public transport because of the benefits of reducing
congestion.

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davchana
This is exactly how transport worked when I was a kid in India.

A nearby city is hub of everything, doctor, shops, food, fashion, ration
everything. 15-20 villages are between the next similar city. A single bus
starts from City A, usually empty in morning, & picks along people on the way
to City B. There,it turns around, & conductors start shouting City A &
Villages names, along with dramatic words like Leaving Soon, Hurry Up, Almost
Full, Lets Go, Run etc. But it will run only at either its designated time, or
if full, whichever is earlier.

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keiferski
Sounds a bit like Marshrutkas, which are cheap vans that function as the
primary “public transit” system in many post-Soviet cities.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshrutka](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshrutka)

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samschooler
Gallineras (or just "bus") or chicken buses are this concept as a (beautiful)
school bus in central and some central American countries. As well as
"collectivos" which are the van version.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_bus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_bus)

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wil421
Chicken buses are awesome. I’ve been on the one from the second picture in
Nicaragua. Someone even had a chicken. The best part is most of them still
have US school system wording on the side. I remember seeing “School System of
Milwaukee” or something similar.

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Endy
I thought they were talking about the jitney buses run by companies like
Spanish Transit from Paterson <-> NYC. They're absolutely vital means of
transport when the trains are reliably behind schedule (as they currently
almost always are) or when the NJTransit buses aren't running on time because
of some unknown issue.

I wish they would expand their offerings, because I live and work at two major
points of their routes (except that it's different routes) and if they closed
the triangle, I'd be able to avoid using Uber or Lyft.

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rinchik
`vital means of transport` - definitely disagree here, those "buses" are also
dangerous (constant harassment) and also no AC in the summer, drivers openly
smoke while driving with passengers in those. I would think those vans are a
horrible way of commuting and local authorities don't inspect or monitor those
at all.

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Endy
Never had a driver who smoked yet. On the other hand, tell me something, how
do you get from Paterson or Passaic to NYC or Union City in less than an hour
and at an affordable rate? NJTransit is slow whether it's train or bus, and
they're at the absolute upper limit of being affordable. When I say they're
vital, I absolutely mean it. For those of who have relied on the buses in and
out of the City, the NJTransit option simply isn't viable on a daily basis
compared to far more reliable and numerous jitneys. Uber & Lyft are simply out
of the question on the basis of cost.

Oh, and add in the fact that for those of us who live in Jersey and _cannot_
drive, options are limited overall.

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rinchik
I use NJ transit buses (check 190, practically the same route). Was using
those small buses you are talking about and it was a complete nightmare. Agree
that it’s not consistent but after a while You get to experience stuff that is
just horrendous!

Also the fact that decayed commuting services like that are considered vital
for some commuters is a sign of how bad of a state NJ infrastructure is in.
Those busses are a clear sign of corruption and a symptom of a much larger
problem.

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Endy
I live within three blocks of the 190 & 74 in Passaic, and only need to walk a
few minutes to reach either Passaic or Delawanna stations. That should tell
you my neighborhood pretty well. I only take the 190 if I'm going specifically
to Rutherford or Secaucus. Otherwise, the jitney takes half the time for less
money, or about the same time when bound for Paterson. Difference is that they
run 4x more often. You're absolutely right on one point, though. NJTransit is
a disgusting system; and it needs a real overhaul - the kind that Murphy is
afraid to try because he's so focused on trying to shove through his legal
pot. Does he think everyone's going to get high and ignore all his failures?

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jaxbot
During a snow storm/PABT outage this past winter, I observed a jitney line
from 8th ave down halfway to 10th. It's pretty crazy to see the mishmash of
alternative transit modes people will piece together when their main route
(NJT, PATH, NJ bus, etc) goes offline.

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stcredzero
I've spent a fair bit of time driving in New York City, since the early 90's.
When is autonomous driving ever going to get to NYC? It sometimes seems insane
to drive there. I have a hard time imagining computer drivers being able to
deal with NYC human drivers. (Same goes for Boston, only more so.)

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IanCal
What is it about the driving that doesn't seem reasonable for a computer to
deal with? I've never been.

Often what appears to be hard is because it hits things that are hard for
humans. Full 360 degree constant coverage isn't a problem, fast reaction times
are easy (so if it's about quickly stopping/starting that should be easily
better). Complex parts come from more "human" standards, if you can only come
out of a junction easily by making eye contact with an oncoming car for
example.

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Skunkleton
> What is it about the driving that doesn't seem reasonable for a computer to
> deal with?

Computers are still learning how to deal with freeway driving, why do you
think city driving isn't a harder problem?

> Complex parts come from more "human" standards, if you can only come out of
> a junction easily by making eye contact with an oncoming car for example.

If you want computers to drive alongside humans, this is still a valuable
piece of information.

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IanCal
I didn't say it was easier, but was wondering what would make it so much more
difficult that the other user had a hard time imagining it.

> If you want computers to drive alongside humans, this is still a valuable
> piece of information.

Valuable is different from required though.

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privateSFacct
The Caribbean islands have a lot of these types of vans on ring roads and
elsewhere. So cheap and nice and fast and amazingly decorated in some cases.
But forget seatbelts and be prepared to squeeze. Was really $1 in the
Caribbean though when I was there briefly.

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dsfyu404ed
>The license costs $550, according to the TLC website. After getting a
license, a driver needs to get their van insured, which can cost around
$15,000 a year, Clarke and several van drivers told the Eagle.

Well no wonder there's many unlicensed vans. They way the incentives are set
up they may as well print "don't even bother" at the top of the license form
in big bold letters.

With those kinds of costs in addition to the cost of running the van you'd be
making pennies. Run unlicensed and on normal insurance (or better yet, read
the statutes and figure out where the risk/reward sweet spot is) and you'd
save a ton of money. If you don't have a lot of money or a legitimate business
that needs protecting then it's a no brainier.

Edit: Down-voting me won't make running above the table any more financially
attractive. If the insurance made financial sense the state wouldn't need to
force them to get it or at the very least it would not be the owner's primary
gripe. Most small businesses love to advertise their credentials and how
insured they are. Every other business complains about labor cost and
regulation. These guys are complaining about insurance. That should be a
massive tip off that something is wrong.

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close04
The costs of running a commercial service are always higher. Between
insurance, licensing, generally stricter rules on technical aspects (like
periodic service checks, etc.) you start spending a lot. The liability is a
lot higher for these cases.

This is exactly why Uber went the route of "we're just a tech company even the
drivers are basically driving taxis". Having those drivers conform to the same
rules would have made the fare just as expensive as a taxi fare.

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i_am_proteus
But should the costs be higher?

So much of these costs are protectionist measures implemented by government to
protect the interests of established businesses.

To borrow a turn of phrase from the gun rights camp, business licenses, if
they exist at all, should be low-cost and shall-issue.

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mikeash
So much of them are necessary measures to protect people, though. The trouble
is distinguishing the two.

For example, medallions are obviously and pretty explicitly a protectionist
measure. On the other hand requirements to display fares clearly and use an
approved meter are there to help customers from being ripped off.

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devdas
Medallions protect against the negative of there being too many taxis, causing
congestion and revenue loss for drivers, which would lead to more dangerous
driving and poorly maintained vehicles.

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syntaxing
I haven't taken these in a while but there is a huge word by mouth van system
that connects the five Burroughs (besides SI). Someone tried using huge coach
bus equivalent and was offering $1 a ride but that got shut down pretty
quickly because of apparent traffic issues these coach bus were making.

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SeeDave
I'm curious what makes these succeed in NYC while Chariot failed in SF.

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harshalizee
It's a grey market system. Don't really have to heed to regulations and
investors. And they're all privately owned and decentralized.

