
My dream dating app has been banned by Apple - forgotmypw17
https://webworm.substack.com/p/my-dream-dating-app-has-been-banned
======
reanimus
On the one hand, I do think it's silly that Apple is discriminating against
this app, but I don't really buy the entire idea that a dislike of astrology
is reflective of some sort of deeper bigotry. I'm a gay man of color myself,
and I find it trite and annoying when you re discussing some interpersonal
issues and someone chimes in with "oh it's because of <X astrological sign
incompatibility>".

I think it's fine and fun as anything else to make memes about star signs or
whatever but some people take it seriously to the point of making sweeping
generalizations about people based on what the alignments of planets when they
were born.

~~~
BubRoss
> I'm a gay man of color

What is the connection here? What does that have to do with linking
relationship dynamics to astrology?

~~~
will4274
I was thrown by the same thing. Both the article and the parent comment have
the same premise - the author presumes that Rachel, as a woman, is more
qualified than the average person to judge whether Apple's rejection of an
astrology dating app is an act of discrimination. And then parent comment says
that "as a gay man of color," he's more qualified than the average person to
judge whether Rachel / the author's complaint about discrimination is well
founded. It's a subtle form of the argument to authority fallacy.

~~~
bonestormii_
I mean, is a woman more qualified to judge whether a situation is an example
of misogyny? Perhaps not, as a man could reach the same conclusion. But it's
certainly more appropriate than leaving it to a group of men, or an industry
that is generally dominated by men. It's relevant, not because the logic is
dependent on the fact, but because it is a perspective regarding societal
power.

The article indicates that hating astrology is characteristic of white cis
men. The parent comment says "FWIW, I'm not those things, and I hate
astrology." They aren't asserting their authority to make a logical argument.
They are offering their perspective as a sample.

Respectfully, I think you are letting your intellect get in the way of your
ability to think by dismissing these perspectives, misidentifying a report of
someone's subjective experience as a logical argument, and therefore a
fallacy.

Personally, I hate astrology, but I wouldn't have this app flagged as spam and
banned from the app store because of it. I think the argument that this is a
form of (probably unintentional) racial/gender/sexual discrimination holds
water. If nothing else, I find the idea that Apple happily exerts this kind of
force on their customer's personal interests super frustrating and
distasteful, and bad for business. Money talks, and bullshit walks. If there
is no market for it, let it die on its own merit. I don't need Apple's
protection from astrology.

We don't all have to embrace each other, but we do have to suffer each other.
And traditionally, some of us have been suffering a lot more than others.

That's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

------
crazygringo
So if you read the actual text of Apple's rejection, it seems even _worse_
that merely doing something asinine and dumb like rejecting astrology:

> _" We continue to find your app to be an Astrology based dating app. As
> such, it duplicates the content and functionality of many other similar apps
> currently available on the App Store. While these app features may be
> useful, informative or entertaining, we simply have enough of these types of
> apps on the App Store, and they are considered a form of spam."_

So, holy shit -- Apple will reject your app because there are already "enough"
other apps that incorporate some particular functionality or theme?

While not illegal, that's so blatantly _anti-competitive_ because it says "no
more competition, nobody else can try, you lose, sorry".

That's _infuriating_. This isn't a grocery store with limited shelf space.
Either reject an app because it breaks policies or don't, but don't reject an
app because we already "have enough". Look, if it fails, it'll sink to the end
of search results and nobody will find it anyways. Or de-list apps that don't
meet some tiny minimum number of installs, but to it in the open, for all
types of apps, with explicitly known thresholds.

But don't prevent someone from competing in the first place! It's just so...
_unsportsmanlike_. And ultimately harmful to consumers who _want better apps_.

~~~
tradertef
Yes. Apple rejected an app I was working on as spam since there are already
apps which does the same thing. It was a simple app but I thought its appeal
would be its simplicity anyways.

With this logic, they would reject new games as there are already many games
in the app store :)

------
sharkbot
I was with the sentiment, up to this line (which may have been in jest): “I’m
a busy woman, I haven't got time to accidentally date a Virgo.”

So, you won’t date a person due to a characteristic that they can’t change or
had any agency in choosing, while simultaneously decrying racism.

I just wish people could find peace...

~~~
OpieCunningham
That is in poor taste. Or at least from a point of view that is failing to
grasp the concept of racism. It wasn’t Virgos who enslaved Black people /
redlined neighborhoods / segregated schools.

 _edited to remove analogy because it distracted from the point_

~~~
euroclear
Having a mustache isn't an innate trait. A person could shave or (possibly)
grow a mustache, but they cannot change their date of birth.

~~~
hyperpape
So yeah, bad analogy from the parent poster. But what's the point of
quibbling?

There are other innate traits that might factor into who we date, something
about how they look, perhaps?

------
orangecat
1\. Apple banning this app is absurd.

2\. The claim that "white men don't like astrology because women and nonwhite
people do" is even more absurd.

~~~
mythrwy
The second claim appears to have worked though (absurd as it is). They are
back in the store after 9 rejections per the post edit this morning.

Is this what we have come to? Appeals to logic and fairness fail, but as soon
as a party starts squawking about sexism and racism and gay exclusion it
works?

------
RubenSandwich
This quote is so good from the interview with Rachel Lo, co-founder of Struck:

“I’ve always been a very science-focused person (I studied Mechanical
Engineering & Materials Science), and used to be more opposed Eastern
philosophies and traditions (which is a whole thing to unpack as an Asian kid
growing up in a white community), but I started seeing the benefits to having
a more readily available language to express empathy/emotions in the form of
astrology.”

It very briefly describes why you shouldn’t be so dismissive of astrology.
Even if it’s not a hard science, that doesn’t mean that it’s useless in other
people’s lives. It helps them communicate real emotional needs and wants.

~~~
nickthegreek
It might help them communicate real emotions, but it is also used to skirt
responsibilities of ones actions and be dismissive of others based on a trait
they have no control over.

However, the app should be free to exist.

~~~
RubenSandwich
And I’m not defending people who do that. But this also kind of proves the
point of the article that we are quick to stereotype folks who do astrology,
when it’s likely a very diverse thinking group. I know a few friends into it
and for them it’s a bit real and a bit tongue in check. Ask your friends who
are into astrology, I bet not all use it as a tool to dismiss actions or
predestine things.

~~~
brmgb
> But this also kind of proves the point of the article that we are quick to
> stereotype folks who do astrology, when it’s likely a very diverse thinking
> group.

I don't think most people stereotype people who do astrology.

Some seem to think they display a dramatic lack of intelligence however but I
personally am fine with them being a diverse group of idiots.

------
MaximumYComb
Another article blaming something on cis white men being sexist and racist.
Men don't dislike astrology because women like it. Men dislike astrology
because men like to solve problems and astrology just says "oh it's because of
the moons alignment". When listening to someones problems, women will give
emotional support while men will give practical support. Astrology is firmly
in the emotional support realm and men don't understand it or why people would
use it. So they think it's dumb.

Their app got rejected so they've decided to play identity politics to get the
decision overturned.

NOTE: I've used stereotypes of men and women here. I realise there are
outliers on both sides.

------
hartator
Hum there is nothing wrong with allowing that app. However there is something
very wrong with believing in astrology in a serious way.

~~~
goldenchrome
My theory is that astrology is the religion for agnostics.

Humans have an innate desire to understand how the world works. If you're not
a religious person (for whatever reason) but you still want to feel connected
to a higher power, you're likely to turn to astrology.

Like religion, astrology offers a community of people who want to share their
feelings and connect deeper with one another. Also like religion, if you take
it too seriously you're liable to lose touch with reality.

I think this is why astrology baffles atheists the most. Atheists and
agnostics are similar in many ways since they both reject mainstream religions
generally speaking, so atheists are left wondering why agnostics have rejected
99% of religions but replaced it with another pseudo-religion.

~~~
ShamelessC
>baffles atheists the most

Agnostic chiming in. People who _legitimately_ believe in astrology and aren't
just doing it for fun are irrefutably wrong. That is not an appealing belief
system to me. It is quite baffling.

I think I am aware of the stereotype you're referring to - that of the
"agnostic" who "isn't religious, just spiritual" (something that is similarly
baffling to me). Just wanted to let you know that not all of us fit that
description and I think you'd be hard-pressed to pigeonhole any one of us into
a loose stereotype.

------
realbarack
I don't understand why a rational person would describe an astrology app as
their "dream dating app," but clearly it's reasonable to allow it in the App
store.

~~~
Kluny
Didn't you read the article? The reasons listed made good sense to me.

------
superfamicom
I've been around astrology my whole life, as my mother was very much into it.
I've always viewed it as a fun & convenient way to explain something that has
or needs no explanation. I'm not personally into it, but I am surrounded by
those who are. I just view it as a religion at this point.

~~~
loceng
I think at minimum it allows people who match between sets of characteristics,
and so if you happen to resonate or match with your astrological sign - and
someone else does - and you've both read and know the stereotypical or
associated traits, then to some degree you may better know what kind of person
you're getting involved with; obviously there's a selection bias that people
aren't "into" or match with their sign's defined traits won't believe in it,
and so they'll filter themselves out of this filtering system.

------
agakshat
What does Apple hope to accomplish with this overreach? 1\. People who really
do believe in astrology are not likely to stop doing so, if anything, being
marginalized is likely to make them more extreme in their beliefs. 2\. People
who just want to have fun with yet another twist on a dating app are, you
know, just having fun.

But I think this article is unfairly conflating astrology with LGBTQ or POC
issues.

~~~
colechristensen
Easier app moderation. So incredibly many apps are made and most of them are
just garbage, Apple has an interest in maintaining quality in the contents of
its store so a blanket ban on categories of apps that are most commonly low
effort and low quality with high chances of taking advantage of people... just
makes moderation easier.

Apple doesn't owe you the opportunity to sell on their platform, they need to
be careful to not abuse their moderation and to act in a way which is
reasonable and fair, but they also have to think about their customers and
keeping them around for high quality content.

------
huac
> Rachel has a theory: “The rule quietly went into effect in March (after we
> had already been in development for almost 6 months), so they’re effectively
> squashing any competition co-star might face.”

I also saw a slide from WWDC recently that featured co-star's app icon. Why is
co-star so special to Apple?

~~~
metachor
According to the founder of Co-Star's linkedin profile, they raised "$6
million of investment from the venture firms behind companies like Glossier,
Allbirds, and Everlane".

On Co-Star's website they have positive press reviews from The New Yorker, The
Verge, Cosmo, Vanity Fair, Gizmodo, New York Times, HuffPo, Drudge Report,
Newsweek, Financial Times, Vogue, and more.

It's obvious that Co-Star app is being pumped as a VC darling and someone
wants to eventually get their money back.

Apple is playing their part in the $$ ecosystem by gatekeeping competition.

------
busterarm
[https://fupaper.blog/2017/10/07/astrology-as-a-
pseudoscience...](https://fupaper.blog/2017/10/07/astrology-as-a-
pseudoscience-is-actually-incredibly-harmful/)

This isn't written by a cis white male.

Let's not forget that fortune telling is a confidence scam that fleeces people
of billions every year[1]. It is absolutely harmful.

[1]: In the US alone, the "Psychic Services" industry brings in more than
$2bn/yr.

------
cortesoft
I love how most of the comments on here are already proving the author's point
by just picking on the irrationality of astrology.

------
kpmcc
Just came here to say more of this stuff on hn please.

Wherever you stand on Astrology, it’s ridiculous that Apple is able to just
nix this app.

------
cookingoils
Funny how this article is now considered spam on HN. While I wish this article
was just the interview with the apps creator, I was actually genuinely
interested in this story and think its a much more important instance of
Apple's censorship.

------
classics2
Wow talk about using a straw man as a human shield. I can’t believe I’m saying
it but I feel bad for the snowflakes these guys are hiding behind to get
around the restrictions on junk apps.

------
twirlock
Is this really an article about how it's sexist to be skeptical of astrology?
At what point are nonsense conclusions evidence per se that that the
underlying worldview is nonsense?

~~~
microcolonel
Honestly seems kinda racist and sexist of the author to imply that people of
one or another race or sex are more susceptible to this weird loony nonsense;
then David decries “white cis men” while... by all accounts being one.

------
im3w1l
I think it's sad that this article is being flagged. It is pretty divisive,
but it was also a perspective I haven't heard before about who the Appstore
hurts.

~~~
crazygringo
Yeah, I thought the article itself was legitimate (and an important piece of
the larger conversation that's been happening recently about the App Store)...

... _but_ the fact that most commenters instead seized on this whole "cis
white men" thing to make divisive comments that don't contribute to any
meaningful discussion... I can unfortunately understand why dang presumably
kept it flagged.

------
colechristensen
There is a rising problem in a growing section of society which is
characterizing any disagreement with topics popular with the social-justice-
protected groups of people as abject bigotry. I am honestly concerned about
the sort of developing proto-fascist mindset in the far and not-so-far left
wing of politics.

I don't have a problem with Apple banning or heavily scrutinizing astrology or
other "fortune-telling" type of apps because it seems like the sort of thing
which is ripe for spam and abuse (and lots of low effort low quality
submissions). That doesn't mean there shouldn't be exceptions, but I don't
feel like any app store owes you placement. It is a problem that there aren't
(really) independent app stores, but that is a different problem.

------
anotherevan
I've never believed in astrology, but then again I'm a virgo and as a rule
virgo's don't believe in astrology.

------
fiblye
Trying to read through this was a slog. Just endlessly saying people only hate
astrology because they're white cis men and saying cis white men are hellbent
on denying their brilliance.

People of all sorts also believe in healing crystals, homeopathy, and antivax
theories. I'm pretty confident that most anti-astrology types are also against
most of those 3 other things, and people who legitimately believe in astrology
are more likely to believe in those.

This came across far less as an article wondering why Apple removed an app,
and more of an article justifying prejudice against people with immutable
characteristics.

------
loceng
Has the Co–Star app been ban then too?

------
MintelIE
So what I'm getting here is that some poor quality app was banned from the
store. Science knows Apple needs to do this much, much more aggressively. But
because the people who coded the app were differently sexually preferenced, it
has become something of a gay rights issue too even though Tim Cook and
several other top Apple people are gay and Apple has had, since its earliest
days, a tolerant culture toward gays.

Look at that Instagram post linked in OP's blog entry. I just don't understand
what's going on sometimes.

[https://www.instagram.com/p/CByVfi7hoCl/](https://www.instagram.com/p/CByVfi7hoCl/)

