
Living in cars, working for Amazon - adgasf
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/02/nomadland-living-in-cars-working-amazon
======
dizzystar
For those who want to read an expose on the nomadic and way underpaid, I'd
suggest checking out Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich. (actually,
anything she writes is phenomenal). This whole living in your car and being
nomadic is hardly new to America. I saw it when I was traveling the USA from
2001 to 2007 or so.

As I tell anyone, the only reason Los Angeles can have so many gyms is because
the working homeless needs to take a shower too.

On the one hand, I'm glad that this topic is getting more attention, but I'm
uncomfortable with the thought that Amazon is the poster child for this, when
they are one of the few companies that has low wage workers working full time,
which is very rare in this day of required health care.

~~~
sjg007
I agree it is weird. It is also sad that as a society we can't take care of
our elders. With respect to insurance, some of these workers are over age 65
so they get Medicare. What's interesting is that the article describes "Don
Wheeler" a former software exec who lost everything in the '08 crash as well
as his Berkeley house to his ex-wife. For the HN softare crowd who worry about
a career as they get older, this is close to home. That being said he may have
unique circumstances but still... I think people also underestimate the
financial impact of divorce.

~~~
dizzystar
It hits all ages full-force. The person serving you coffee, cooking your food,
ringing up your groceries, are all part-time and can't get full-time.

Yeah, a lot of them are homeless. At the end of the day, no one is going to
help them.

~~~
tomjen3
Can't get full time because that means the company have to pay for health
benefits. That one was totally predictable and could have been solved by
making part time employment provide part of the benefits.

~~~
maxerickson
Or just punitively tax all in kind benefits.

There's no good policy reason to make it advantageous for businesses to
provide compensation that the recipient can't spend or sell.

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whyenot
Amazon seems to almost always be the target of these articles, how about
highlighting someone else for a change. For example, drive along El Camino
Real next to Stanford University and you will see a long line of campers
parked along the road. Many of the people living there work either directly or
indirectly for the University. Stanford has literally thousands of acres of
empty land where they could build housing for their temporary and low income
employees, yet they chose not to. They could at least provide a campground
with proper facilities and hookups (so sewage doesn't go down storm drains,
for instance). Of course the real solution, which is to pay ALL your employees
a living wage, that apparently is crazy talk in The Valley.

~~~
jopsen
I think amazon is the target because they apparently have program dedicated to
hiring temporary workers who lives in RVs:

[http://www.amazondelivers.jobs/about/camperforce/](http://www.amazondelivers.jobs/about/camperforce/)

(it's almost unbelievable)

~~~
colechristensen
Aren't there people who _want_ to do this?

~~~
kendallpark
I know people that actually do like these sorts of mobile adventures. It's
pretty common in the health industry to have traveling doctors and nurses that
hop from state to state to fill in for vacationing docs or temporary needs.
It's called locum tenens. You can read more here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locum)

This scenario is slightly different, but there are certain types of people
that prefer to not be tied down or simply have a craving to spend a piece of
their lives roving around geographically. Similar mentality to liveaboard
sailors and people that seek out work in Antarctica.

~~~
khedoros1
My wife is a CNA. If you're flexible about suddenly hopping on a plane for a
few weeks or months and living in a rented room, there's some good money in it
(several times her usual pay rate and housing paid for). But at least in that
case, the wages are pretty good. Amazon's are pretty low, and they don't pay
to house the workers.

~~~
kendallpark
The article points out that Amazon DOES pay for their RV park fees (these tend
to be: $15-50/day). Additionally, the people in this article say the pay is
good (compared to what they'd be making elsewhere for unskilled labor). It's
not what your wife would make, but she has special training and certification.
I do know a family that lives out of an RV supported by a locus tenens RN. The
dad (former schoolteacher) homeschools the kids. They could settle down in a
single location if they wanted, or rent out locations during the wife's
appointments, but this RV trip is their adventure.

My point is that there is a type of person that actually enjoys this type of
lifestyle. I don't think Amazon is being nefarious and taking advantage of
impoverished RV migrants as much as it's creating a mutually beneficial
arrangement.

~~~
bfuller
I am sure someone enjoys it but it is less fun when you dont have a choice

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throw2016
There is no concept of 'society' and 'community' in the country. As long as
things are good there is no problem, but when things start falling apart you
need robust social and community structures and these simply don't exist.

Because people who are down need more than just tokenism, they need real human
structures that can provide psychological human support, that sense of family,
and then social and community structures that show the society is human and
has empathy for its fellow members to get them back on their feet.

People who are wealthy already have this. People who are not need to think
about down times, not just for themselves, but their family, friends,
community and children down the line. If everyone thinks they are strictly
individuals on the verge of becoming rich and these silly things don't matter
you are going to have serious social problems.

~~~
sjg007
There are definitely communities organized around churches, mosques and
synagogues. I think one problem we have is that we expect faith based
organizations to pick up the slack instead of the government. That was a big
agenda in W’s administration.

Here’s the issue, everyone is broke except the rich. Some of them don’t want
to pay their fair share in taxes. Politicians are easily bought.

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iiiggglll
This will only become more common once vehicles are self-driving. People will
live in their vehicles and have them either drive around all night or find a
place to park many hours away from their jobs (assuming there any jobs left).

The fantasy many folks seem to have about self-driving vehicles causing car
ownership to disappear in favor of automated Ubers/Lyfts/whatevers on demand
might come to pass for one class of people, but there will be large numbers of
people for whom the opposite happens: they give up their homes (by choice or
not) and live in a self-driving vehicle that is the only dwelling they own.

~~~
Noos
We already have this, without self-driving cars.

[http://www.mcall.com/news/local/bethlehem/mc-sands-
bethlehem...](http://www.mcall.com/news/local/bethlehem/mc-sands-bethlehem-
asian-bus-20140329-story.html)

Some Asian patrons of casinos almost live on the bus, in between stays to sell
the various free perks they receive. It's a hellish existence, and not one to
be wished on anyone.

------
rawnlq
The most famous one is probably the google employee who lived in a truck:
[http://www.businessinsider.com/google-employee-lives-in-
truc...](http://www.businessinsider.com/google-employee-lives-in-truck-in-
parking-lot-2015-10)

There are actually a lot of other software engineers / freelancers on
[https://www.reddit.com/r/vandwellers/top/?sort=top&t=all](https://www.reddit.com/r/vandwellers/top/?sort=top&t=all).
Like this engineer from Tesla: [http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-employee-
lived-out-of-v...](http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-employee-lived-out-of-
van-2015-11/#-7)

I find the modding be really cool. But the stories of people getting
killed/robbed at night like this Palo Alto tech worker scares me:
[https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/local-las-vegas/man-
kill...](https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/local-las-vegas/man-killed-in-
gym-parking-lot-in-wrong-place-at-wrong-time/)

(Google campus would be a pretty ideal place to do this though)

~~~
SeoxyS
Did you read the article? It's not about a high-paid engineer working at a big
5 tech company and living in an RV. It's about people who can't afford homes
and work temporary jobs around the country because our economy has failed
them.

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jwatte
Federal minimum wage, times 2000 hours (if you can get it,) is not enough to
sustain a living, much less a family. If we want people to work for a living,
we'd support significant increases there.

~~~
nradov
Minimum wage increases make it uneconomic for employers to hire workers whose
labor produces little value — mainly youths and people without advanced
education. So they get stuck in the permanently unemployed underclass, always
reliant on welfare or working under the table for cash. A better solution
would be to eliminate the minimum wage entirely and make up the difference
through income redistribution with something like a negative income tax for
the lower brackets.

~~~
SturgeonsLaw
Higher wages also means more disposable income for workers which flows quite
heavily to industries like retail and hospitality, which offer a high
proportion of entry level jobs

~~~
nradov
Disposable income is disposable income regardless of whether it comes from
wages or income redistribution. If minimum wages are artificially fixed higher
than the value of labor then those workers won't get any wages at all.

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rjbwork
This is terrible, but that dude, Don Wheeler, absolutely should not have had
that much assets in assets like stocks at such an advanced age. As you get
older your asset mix should shift towards more low gain and high stability
investments, like bonds, T-bonds, and other stable fixed-income asset classes.

Or, so I understand.

~~~
gt_
I had the same thoughts. Also, his story highlights the impact of divorce and
rising trends of solo living arrangements.

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epx
Haven't anyone noted that the guy was made homeless by divorce?

~~~
gt_
So heartbreaking! As a younger man, I have seen enough. Married people can say
what they want about how they love their lives, but the risk is just
overwhelming. I am sure Don Wheeler loved being married at some point as well.

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dimpadumpa
People have to live in car .. while working in amazon.. but why in earth we
should use amazon ?? Do we support rich getting richer only.. ?

Please, lets start to respect our self and forgot these mega companies

~~~
jopsen
You can regulate these companies through the political process, but you do
need to get involved...

What chance do you have of convincing consumers to use a less convenient more
expensive alternative to Amazon, when you can barely convince them to vote in
their own interest?

~~~
gt_
‘Barely convince’? When did that happen? I think it is fair to say Americans
are flat out incapable of voting in their own best interest. It could be
argued they don’t even have a chance to, but regardless, they by-and-large
cannot identify that chance whether it exists or not.

~~~
jopsen
Fair point...

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tw1010
Let's not fool ourselves into thinking these people are _forced_ into living
this way due to rising housing and apartment costs. There is always a choice.
These people could live in crappy apartments in crappy city-jobs if they so
chose. But they don't want to, because part of them romanticizes life on the
road.

~~~
kingkawn
You’re trash.

~~~
dang
The GP was not a charitable comment, but outright personal attacks are still
not allowed. We ban accounts that post this way, and I don't want to ban you,
so would you please not post like this?

You've been here a long time, so I'm sure you know that civil, substantive
comments are what we're looking for.

~~~
kingkawn
I will obey this, respect the needs of encouraging good discussion, and value
my place as a member of this mostly interesting and thoughtful community.
Still I stand behind the logical accuracy of my original statement.

