
The Death of the Party - mojuba
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/17/fashion/death-of-the-party.html
======
personlurking
I find the whole US experience quite odd. Among everyone I knew up until my
mid-late 20s (before I went abroad), the only viable options for nighttime fun
were clubs and bars. Period. Luckily, I knew foreigners who would have house
parties, bbqs and picnics.

When I moved to Brazil, people met on the beach, or were otherwise mostly in
public spaces (you can drink on the street there). In Portugal, it's a mix of
bar/club and public space* (drinking on the street is allowed), plus house
parties. Whether in Brazil or Portugal, I can go out and spend $15 (incl. two-
way transportation) and have a great time. Try doing that in the States.

* pretty typical scenes in Lisbon on the weekends [http://imgur.com/a/5Fcvt](http://imgur.com/a/5Fcvt)

~~~
adventured
On an observational basis, the public parks in LA are almost always filled
with people having fun, having picnics, holding parties, et al. Drive by them
on any weekend and they're full.

BBQ is a massive industry in the US for a reason. It has gotten bigger, not
smaller. More people today BBQ, not less.

Potlucks are extremely common in the US as well.

I think your criticism is unfounded. It's trivially easy to hold group get-
togethers in public parks in the US and only be out $15.

~~~
mgkimsal
> "only be out $15."

It very likely won't involve alcohol. There's almost nothing in the states you
can do in public involving alcohol that will put you out < $15 _and_ satisfy
the notion of 'event' that anyone wanting alcohol would agree with.

The "going out with friends and getting drunk" for $15 might fly in other
countries, but probably not here.

~~~
sp332
You'll have to be more specific than "in the states" because when I do that,
it feels like an "event" to me.

~~~
mgkimsal
not sure I can be more specific, but it's a generalization based on 20+ years
of "going out" in various states (US).

------
humanrebar
I think they buried the most rational conclusion. After complaining about
expensive cheese (really? someone lives in a hipster bubble) and awkward
sorry-didn't-invite-you situations (which always existed), the NYT gets to the
point:

"More financially injurious, however, is the exorbitant rents that millennials
often pay..."

House parties take space. Space costs money, especially in and near Manhattan.
They also require either lots of room between homes (to keep noise down) or
amazing soundproofing. Neither of which is common in Manhattan.

And _everyone_ pays crazy rent. Remember when housing prices crashed in
2007-2008 and the government was brainstorming ways to keep them up? This
isn't a force of nature, and it's not extra hard on millenials. It's policy.
If anything, it's harder on families, since they need more space for kids (who
don't pay rent) and have less tolerance for walkups (strollers) or rough
neighborhoods.

Besides, there are plenty of house parties across the country. They call them
BBQs or pool parties, and they have them during the day in places where people
with steady jobs can afford to own or rent a home with a yard or pool. You
know, flyover country. The places that don't read the Style section of the
NYT.

~~~
morgante
> This isn't a force of nature, and it's not extra hard on millenials.

Older people are more likely to own their homes (even in expensive cities like
SF), so higher rent absolutely hits millenials harder.

~~~
sp332
Increased land prices mean higher taxes for homeowners too.

~~~
del82
And if property taxes go up on my landlord, my rent goes up to cover it.

~~~
rahimnathwani
Why would this have any more impact on your rent than if your landlord's car
payments were to go up?

~~~
icambron
Taxes affect the whole market; the landlord's car payments just affect that
landlord.

Similar apartments in your area are similarly priced. That's because they're
obeying supply and demand. If your landlord's car payments go up and she
raises the rent to make up the difference, the similar apartment down the
street--owned by someone who's car payments haven't changed--suddenly looks
more attractive so you move. So she can't raise the rents like that because
the market has no reason to move as a whole. Her car payments don't alter the
supply or demand for apartments in your area.

But if the taxes she has to pay go up, they go up for all the landlords in
your area. That impacts the cost of providing an apartment and removes
apartments that are marginally profitable from the market; in economic terms
it's an inward shift in the supply curve. So the price for apartments in your
area goes up.

~~~
rahimnathwani
"That impacts the cost of providing an apartment and removes apartments that
are marginally profitable from the market"

It doesn't remove them from the market, because the new (higher) property tax
must be paid whether the landlord continues to let the property, lives there
herself, or sells the property to a new owner.

If we were talking about an increase in the income taxes levied on rental
income, then your thesis would hold. In this case, as taxes on rental income
were to rise, so would the additional benefit of renting vs. living in the
property myself. At some point, it flips, and it becomes better for me to just
live there. The post-tax rent just isn't worth it compared to the benefit of
me (the landlord) living there.

However, a property tax which is fixed with respect to the use of the property
(rented or owner-occupied) and, if applicable, rental income, would not have
the same effect. The annual property tax must be paid whatever happens, and it
is a sunk cost that everybody must pay. It does not affect marginal decisions
(buy vs. keep; rent vs. owner-occupy).

~~~
icambron
> It does not affect marginal decisions (buy vs. keep; rent vs. owner-occupy).

Hmm, I don't see how increasing the price of an input fails to increase its
price. The "somebody's gotta own it" argument isn't convincing.

Not that confident in this, but here's my take: it does affect keep vs sell:
if you can't afford to to keep it (because your rent income no longer
justifies your costs) then you have to sell it. To whom do you sell it? Not
other people who wish to be landlords, presumably, because they'd in the same
bind as you. But the housing price sinks until someone buys it to live in
(their property taxes sink too!). Perhaps you even sell to yourself by
refinancing and then move in.

------
littlewing
I know I'm in the minority but our street has had house parties fairly
frequently over the past years since we've lived here. Here's our story:

When we first moved in, we went to each home in the area and invited them to
come over and meet their neighbors that weekend. It was a cold weekend and all
of those that came had coffee and hot chocolate in the garage and spoke for a
little while.

From then on, other neighbors and ourselves would periodically make extra
cookies or other food and just take it over to a neighbor's house. When the
weather is nice, people would just walk around the neighborhood and stop by to
talk to others that happened to be outside. We put a fridge in the garage and
offered people a soda, beer, or glass of wine when they stopped by, and over
time others would gather and talk.

Eventually people started to have dinner parties. Cocktails were served,
chips, appetizers, etc. Ours is not an affluent neighborhood, but those that
could afford it did all they could.

Over the years, it has slowed down a little. There have been some weird
friends that messed up relationships, and other mistakes with people drinking
too much, etc. But, there have also been solid friendships that came out of
it, and people still get together.

It doesn't happen everywhere, for sure. We consider ourselves blessed to have
such good friends and neighbors. But, I think that if you do similar things,
you could have a chance at the same type of experience.

------
jsumrall
Seems like a very different situation here in the Netherlands. Most people
live somewhat close by, within 15 minutes of biking, and its not at all
unusual for everyone to show up with some drinks or snacks. This takes care of
two of the main reasons the article claims Americans are not having a house
party.

At one point in the article someone said that only have a 400ft space, and can
only host 5-6 people before it gets crowded. I was just at a gathering
yesterday in a room of less than 16m^2 (172ft^2) with 12 people without a
problem.

~~~
mojuba
Same in Ireland, house parties are pretty common. I'm wondering if it's to do
with the population density and public transportation (you don't want to drive
drunk), among many other factors already mentioned in the article.

~~~
dazc
It's been awhile since I've been to Ireland (10 years) but I remember the cost
of alcohol being very high, not just in tourist areas.

I also notice police being very proactive against drink-driving - in the
centre of Dublin at least.

~~~
mojuba
Drinks are much cheaper in shops compared to pubs/bars (the latter are taxed
much more heavily). Another reason for Ireland to party at home :)

------
abhv
Poorly written story based on 3 anecdotes and misused facts from BLS. I am on
sabbatical in NYC for the year, and I've seen "the party" occur in common
spaces, like parks.

For the last 20 years in nyc, people _right out of college_ have always used
public spaces (parks, bars, clubs) as venues for their parties.

On any fair-weather Saturday during spring-fall in Morningside park, there are
100s of people having parties with outdoor bbqs, lounging, bubble-making, etc.

Same in central park. A friend of ours had their post-wedding party in central
park around a huge oak tree; maybe 80 people showed up. The same couple hosted
at least 3 parties during the year in their 1bd Village apartment (900 sq ft).

It seems contradictory that the guests of parties expect "bourgeois cheese and
beer" and yet themselves have limited budgets.

~~~
wtbob
> It seems contradictory that the guests of parties expect "bourgeois cheese
> and beer" and yet themselves have limited budgets.

Not if the guests see themselves as children and their hosts as parents.

~~~
dasil003
That's funny, but I think it touches on the effects of easy credit to this
whole phenomenon. Kids are graduating university today with what was
previously considered unconscionable debt, and then they pile up credit card
debt because they want the best of the best that they see every day on
Facebook and Pinterest.

I'm not saying this as a blank statement against young people, there are
irresponsible people living beyond their means at all ages. But consumerism as
a trend in aggregate has amped up to record levels, and SV is a significant
part of that.

------
petewailes
UK here - people don't really do this in their 20's anymore, but in their
30's, and what hosting is seems rather different. It's more about enjoying
social company around food, some music on Spotify, and probably a board game.
It's an excuse to spend time with people you like outside of a work context.

Most of the people I know have someone over to a house around once a month or
so, or do an event of some kind (gallery showing, horse trials etc) for
similar purposes.

~~~
Intermernet
Australian here (Sydney) - House parties are alive and well in my local area.
Last night my neighbors were going 'til about 4AM (I'm in Newtown, which is
renowned for being a bit different [1], so this is probably a terrible data
point).

Age seems to have nothing to do with it. My said neighbors are uni students,
I'm in my late 30's, my other neighbors are in their late 50's, and we've all
been known to keep the block awake all night. No one complains, especially
considering that friendly pre-party warnings / invitations are usually letter-
box-dropped, and the late parties are usually confined to Friday / Saturday
nights.

I personally love the house party vibe where I live. We may not all share the
same music tastes, but it does my soul good to hear people having a good time
pretty much every weekend!

It's possible that the reasons given in other comments (increased rent prices,
social media redefining relationships etc.) are valid in Sydney as a whole,
but thankfully they're having little effect in my surrounding area!

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newtown,_New_South_Wales#Cultu...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newtown,_New_South_Wales#Culture)

------
roymurdock
> Rent is higher

> More Millenials unemployed

> More Millenials living at home

> More geographic dispersion after school (good friends end up all over the
> world)

> City scene is all about bars and clubs, especially for those who can afford
> it and want the prestige factor

> Everything more competitive than 50 years ago when U.S. enjoyed an economic
> heyday after WWII

>>> Millennials still party all the time regardless, and it's not that big of
a deal

------
winterismute
I lived the last 5 years in the NL, as a foreigner, where I finished a MSc. In
the last, say, 2 years I have been working full-time, and I noticed how
throwing house parties became harder being in my late-20s: people have tight
schedules, need to commute early because of work etc. Nonetheless, with my
partner, we threw a handful each year. We lived in shared house but it was
big, with a backyard and ok neighbors. We would always have some kind of big
dinner and then mostly gather around the fire outside, sometimes watching
stuff with a projector on a canvas we would put on the back wall. Although
always a lot of effort, I really enjoyed it, it creates a nice and safe space
so that people can be really open with each other, I have seen many people
getting to know each other and "relationships" (work/feelings related)
bootstrap. We have recently moved to the UK, outside London, in a smaller
house. I don't know much of the people and the town, and I am observing on
myself how I spend more time on the internet or watching movies. Maybe it's
not related to being in 2015, maybe it's just that after 25 in modern
societies it gets more difficult to get close to people. I wonder if it is a
problem that a private or public venture could address in an innovative way.

~~~
VLM
"Maybe it's not related to being in 2015, maybe it's just that after 25 in
modern societies it gets more difficult to get close to people."

Being a student used to mean being a teen, and that gives maybe a decade to
party before the biological clock starts ringing and nobody can party all
night because they have little kids. Sure, outliers always existed, but they
were rare. Post teens were adults with adult incomes but not adult
responsibilities, like kids, for quite a few years, usually.

The modern economic strategy of extending childhood by about a decade by
extending education and eliminating entry level positions and near elimination
of the high school grad career path has all kinds of fascinating economic
effect, mostly bad, but one big effect is by the time the advanced degrees and
internships are done and someone finally has an above poverty level income and
medical insurance and a place to live other than parents house, the biological
clock is ringing and if you don't immediately start popping out newborns, you
aren't going to have biological time to do it, thus dramatically limited party
culture.

So lets say culturally theres a shift from the delay between "I graduated and
now I'm an adult" and "I got a herd of kids and after school stuff to attend
and kids sports and ..." used to be a decade and now its maybe two years? So
you'd naturally expect a decline of maybe 80% in party culture, taking it from
dominant activity in the 20s to its basically gone?

There is also the biological effect that scenes from the movie "Animal House"
look like fun to a teenage brain, maybe not so much to an older brain, so
increasing the drinking age and dramatically criminalizing drinking while also
socially pushing the mantra often heard on HN that its impossible to socialize
(party) without being an alcoholic (which is criminalized) will result in a
natural decline in party culture.

~~~
FlannelPancake
> Post teens were adults with adult incomes but not adult responsibilities,
> like kids, for quite a few years, usually.

Hmm, not sure I agree with that really.

I agree with most of your sentiment about elimination of entry-level jobs and
extended education, but I think the natural response (and the response we see)
is for women to have children at older ages
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_maternal_age](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_maternal_age)).

It used to be the case that you'd graduate high school and start having
children in your early 20s, so I'm not sure I agree that there was ever a time
when it was "socially acceptable" to be an adult with an adult income and no
children for several years.

------
greggman
I hosted a few house parties a year in SF. I love doing it. I don't mind the
prep or the cleanup (though it would be nice to have help; :P)

The problem is I lived in an apartment and the neighbors weren't happy about
it. If I didn't have to worry about them I'd have thrown 3x more house
parties.

I probably got that from my family who threw large family parties and a giant
new years party at our house with > 80 people every other year.

One thing I liked about living in Tokyo, it was relatively trivial to rent an
entire bar. So, people have parties and they don't have to worry about noise
or cleanup. Of course one thing they do have to do is charge for the party but
I guess that's a cultural thing. No one has a problem paying because they're
used to it. And by paying I mean $20-$40 a person.

~~~
toothbrush
$20-40 per person actually sounds reasonable, considering prices you'd
normally pay for drinks in a bar. Hell, even just being at home having a party
one could easily spend that on drinks and snacks. Plus, you're in a bar with
non-strangers, which is something i'd also gladly pay for. Sounds like a right
good idea to me!

------
ezequiel-garzon
When I saw the title of the article and the source I was convinced it would be
about the end of the _political_ party, in view of the poll numbers for
outsiders such as Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump.

------
drivingmenuts
Acc. to the article, New York is the only place where they party.

Screw New York. Move to Texas. We have plenty of room to party.

------
joesmo
And of course you have raves that draw in hundreds of thousands in the US
(134,000 for one night of this year's Electric Daisy Carnival for example),
something unheard of in the 90's or 2000's here, so while house parties may
not be as popular, partying itself obviously still is.

I do think people are much more disconnected socially, but I don't think
that's a different scenario than ten or twenty years ago, just one that's
ramped up. It is possible to live today in the US and have close to zero
social interactions. I can work from home, get all my goods delivered by
Amazon or Instacart, all my entertainment delivered digital, and all my
socializing online. This isn't a hypothetical: other than my immediate family,
this has been a sort of experiment for the last year and a half or so. It's
certainly unusual, but also can be very appealing in its own right. There are,
however, many things that are quite unappealing as you might imagine. I
certainly wouldn't recommend it for long periods because of them, but I wonder
if this isn't the direction that society as a whole is heading, but I fear
that it might very well be.

------
seibelj
I'm a millennial and I go to parties all the time. I chose my apartment partly
on party-throwing amenities. And my social network has parties too. Maybe it's
just the city (Boston)? House parties have always been a big thing for me
throughout college and after.

~~~
hessenwolf
I was going to ask, but I figured I'd google it.

"Millennials (also known as the Millennial Generation or Generation Y) are the
demographic cohort following Generation X. There are no precise dates when the
generation starts and ends. Most researchers and commentators use birth years
ranging from the early 1980s to the early 2000s."

~~~
Namrog84
When did generation y get absorbed by the word millennials? Last time I looked
they were 2 distinct ones. Soon gen x and baby boomer gonnna get gobbled up
too?

~~~
hessenwolf
"In August 1993, the phrase Generation Y first appeared in an Ad Age editorial
to describe those who were aged 11 or younger as well as the teenagers of the
upcoming ten years who Ad Age defined as different from Generation X.[6] Since
then, the company has sometimes used 1982 as the starting birth year.[7]
According to Horovitz, in 2012, Ad Age "threw in the towel by conceding that
Millennials is a better name than Gen Y",[1] and by 2014, a past director of
data strategy at Ad Age said to NPR "the Generation Y label was a placeholder
until we found out more about them".[8]"

------
jgh
Cheeses, food, and expensive alcohol? Sounds like a gathering I'd attend now
that I'm in my 30s...in my 20s it was all bottom-shelf liquor and terrible
beer (and pretty much no food unless someone thought they were being classy by
buying a shrimp ring)

------
notact
They seem to have missed an important data point involving alcohol. If the
stories I hear are accurate, a few decades ago if you were pulled over while
intoxicated, the officer would likely say "You boys drive straight on home
mkay?" We've become much less tolerant of alcohol-related accidents, and so
that same situation sudenly becomes a much bigger problem. Who wants to risk a
DUI to hang out with a bunch of squares from the office?

------
EC1
Everything has been commercialized into absolute death.

------
PaulRobinson
I think the party went out of fashion in the UK when Abigail's Party ended up
on TV in the 1970s:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail%27s_Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail%27s_Party)

I basically hate house parties. I prefer spending time with my friends in
pubs/bars, or going out to museums/galleries and that sort of thing.
Occasionally we'll have people who want to spend time in our neck of the woods
(London) and they can stay with us for a weekend and we'll do things like
that. Occasionally we'll head back to our home town (Manchester), and we'll go
and do things around there.

The idea of a bunch of probable strangers in a house with a poor/prescribed
collection of booze just doesn't interest me. It is too open to posturing,
egos clashing, being unable to drift away or having "forced fun".

~~~
personlurking
I suppose the definition matters in this case. While house parties used to
mean "probable strangers in a house" when I was in my teens, for me it's now
more like the UK experience described below by another HNer in this thread.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10247096](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10247096)

------
johan_larson
One bit of hard data and a whole lot of anecdotes and speculation. Not worth
it.

~~~
sp332
Interpreting history is a valid way of getting insight. Not everything is
rigorous.

------
sp332
Parties used to be mostly full of strangers? And have no food and no alcohol?
So... what did people do at a party?

~~~
huxley
Listen to music? Talk? Pass a joint around? Those that played instruments
brought them and would jam.

I know I'm getting old and was kind of a prole but most parties that I went to
in Atlantic Canada were like that, you brought what you could afford and the
people holding the party provided the venue.

You had strangers at the party because friends would invite their friends
who'd bring some other friends. One never knew if the party would be huge or a
bust.

We were relatively poor students so food wasn't common unless people kicked in
for a pizza or went out for donairs, whatever was plentiful and cheap and
easy.

The worst parties usually involved alcohol, I spent New Years Eve (1989)
cleaning a walk-in kitchen pantry at a friend's flat because my then-
girlfriend had barfed in it after she ran to what she thought was the
bathroom. I was a bit disillusioned with parties after that.

~~~
eitally
I'm not young (38), but my parents used to throw these kinds of open parties
all the time when I was growing up. We had an open door policy, too, where
anyone who showed up around a meal time was automatically served, too, and
that provided a really awesome opportunity for us to build and strengthen
friendships (being older and more worldly now, I know this is pretty common in
large parts of the world, but it wasn't in central Virginia in the early 80s).
We had a couple acres, and our house parties ranged from just a couple of
folks over to hang out to large outdoor events with up to about 250 folks. In
those cases it was always friends-of-friends-of-friends. As mentioned
elsewhere, my family provided the venue and some general amenities (some
drinks, core food) but it was expected that attendees would bring something to
contribute.

As adults now, my wife & I try to have friends over regularly, too, but it's a
lot more complicated in suburban US because of dual-income households, kids
that either don't go to neighborhood schools or are involved in lots of
extracurriculars, and generally antisocial neighbors.

------
anonu
Curious to post this on a Saturday evening when ya'll should be partying...
But its been an hour with no comments. So it would seem like at least some of
us on HN have a life. Then again, its an interesting article but not super HN-
pertinent.

~~~
peter_caltrain
Why _should_ we all be partying? Who are you to tell us what to do?

~~~
gaius
You created an account to say this?

~~~
peter_caltrain
Yeah I did actually create a throwaway to save personal attacks.

Often on HN there's some discussion and people feel that they can tell other
people what they should be doing about some subjective thing.

One example is this thread. Some people don't like to party. The commenter
said that we _should_ go and party. Even if we don't like it. We should all
like what they like and we should all do what they want to do. That's a
brilliant example of the kind of pushy asshole I don't like to meet at
parties. It's like those people that try to force you to dance at weddings. I
don't like to dance - that's my decision.

Another recent example was mother's day. I don't like my mother. She seriously
neglected me as a child until I was removed by the state, which still causes
me medical problems to this day. But everyone feels entitled to say that I
_should_ call my mother to say hi. Why should I? Because they have a good
relationship with their mother? Good for them. But don't tell me what I should
or shouldn't do.

~~~
DanBC
In this thread
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9519994](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9519994)
I said this:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9520124](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9520124)

(25 points)

