
Tesla's 'long-haul' electric truck aims for 200 to 300 miles on a charge - Element_
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-trucking-exclusive-idUSKCN1B42GC
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dchuk
I work in the telematics/trucking software space. Many many many trucks travel
less than 2-300 miles a day (Intermodal, dray, etc).

Not every truck driver is crushing miles every day, many operations are just
between different modes of transportation or operating in same counties, etc.

What will be interesting is seeing how reduced "fuel" costs (electricity) will
balance out with faster turn arounds (a truck can fill up in a few minutes,
charging will take a long time). I could see fleets valuing either side
depending on how they operate. Fleets reroute based on saving a few cents per
gallon, so this could be great for the fleets that can afford to recharge
overnight.

~~~
mankyd
Tesla has demonstrated physically swapping battery packs in cars at least once
before. For their demonstration (performance, really), they managed to do it
in faster than a gas fill up.

I'd bet they'd work to actually get that production ready for these trucks.
Seems like an easier and more useful place to get it working.

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Pxtl
Many of these trucks are servicing facilities already equipped with overhead
cranes in the loading bay. An overhead crane could be used for battery-
swapping in addition to loading/unloading cargo.

~~~
gondo
truck with engine is usually detachable from trailer/payload. instead of
swapping batteries or loading/unloading cargo, you can simply attach the
trailer to the fully recharged truck waiting for you

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IgorPartola
How does that work if you own the truck?

~~~
williamscales
If you own the truck you can charge it at night when you're not driving it.
The kind of operation described above seems to imply fungibility of trucks.

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tyrw
All of the comments re: swappable battery packs are missing the end goal. Once
the driver is gone from autonomy, these fleets are going to be dirt cheap to
operate.

It won't make sense to swap a battery pack when you can just park one truck on
the charger and let another take its place.

~~~
tyrw
I'd also add that virtually the only compelling reason to have a single, large
load like a big rig is to minimize the cost of a human driver relative to
payload shipped. Without a driver, the optimal load size will likely be much
different and will vary more by industry than it does today.

~~~
rgbrenner
If anything, wouldn't the loads get larger.. since you could build trailers
with more sensors, allowing more trailers to be attached to the same
tractor... minimizing energy/fuel cost.

One tractor carrying larger loads is going to be more efficient than many
small trucks with smaller loads: total weight over payload.

A human being can only safely handle so much cargo, and that's probably lower
than could be automated.

~~~
fpgaminer
Hmmm, I'm not sure the equation is so obvious.

If you don't have a driver, then the vehicle amounts to just a couple motors,
batteries, and sensor arrays.

It doesn't make a difference if the battery is located in the front "truck"
part of the convoy, or whether it's distributed throughout the trailers.

For a very long chain of trailers, you probably want a set of motors for every
trailer right?

And as you've speculated, there's going to be a sensor array in every trailer.

So basically, you have motors in every trailer, batteries in every trailer,
and sensors in every trailer. At that point ... why do you need a "truck" on
the front and/or why are they connected at all?

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copperred
Dropping a trailer vs waiting for it to be unloaded? I dunno. I agree with
what your saying. Just moving stuff is obviously faster than waiting around
for loading and unloading. At what point does the idle electric truck start to
cost less than a simple trailer.

~~~
jsjohnst
There's an "easy" solution to that too, you make it a flat bed electric self-
driving trailer which takes a container similar to sea shipping containers on
top.

Then you don't:

\- have the unnecessary truck cab in front

\- cost of the trailer being unused while loading / unloading

\- potentially drastically change shipping containers received from over seas.

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jpao79
Actually I was thinking last time I was driving from LA back to SF that one
way to move faster with autonomous trucking would be to dedicate a highway
lane during very off peak hours (such as between hours of 12 am to 4am) to
autonomous freight trucks.

The lane could have flashing sign indicators similar to some carpool lanes in
California to warn normal drivers about the risks.

When I was driving around LA, the rush hour traffic seemed to be made worse by
the number of freight trucks on the road (presumably moving stuff into/out of
Port of LA/Long Beach).

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grecy
> _right out of the gate I think that’s where they’ll start”_

What? This is not news. This is one guy guessing at what they are doing.

He has no inside information of any kind.

~~~
deweller
Yes. Scott Perry from Ryder is speculating. But Reuters apparently has an
unnamed source.

Here's the news:

> Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) next month plans to unveil an electric big-rig truck with
> a working range of 200 to 300 miles, Reuters has learned.

~~~
grecy
Yes, Reuters learned it from Scott Perry's speculation...

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xd1936
That's an impressive number considering the weight that it'll be pulling, but
hows does this compare to gas range on current new rigs? Those refill to a
full tank in a few minutes, whereas you need to wait quite a while from a full
to empty electric charge.

~~~
yourapostasy
TSLA may intend to debut battery swapping with the trucks, where the large
physical form factor might be more amenable to swapping. While the range is
low, if the equivalent mpg is higher, and the energy recovery from braking
significant enough, then it would pencil out as an financial advantage to use
the electric truck.

A Yahoo Answers post [1] gives an idea of the kind of metrics TSLA will have
to soundly beat. Fuel is the biggest cost. Bring that down and you'll get the
trucking companies' attention for the pitch.

Not all semis are long-haul; there are local delivery semis that fit into the
2-300 mile range, and that could be an initial market.

[1]
[https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100327005347A...](https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100327005347AA4AAGO)

~~~
burkemw3
Some shipping networks may be more amenable to swapping than consumer markets,
too.

If I were swapping batteries, I would have some concern about the condition
that battery was in. In the consumer market, it's hard to manage that in a
trustful way.

Some shipping networks will allow swappable packs to remain in the possession
of one entity. Hopefully, that entity trusts itself.

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lpaone
I think the biggest problem, as stated in the article, which I think is being
missed by many commenters, is the cost. According to the article, the
batteries alone (not including the chassis) cost almost as much as a current
diesel truck.

Another huge issue is weight. Batteries are extremely heavy and a truck loaded
with the batteries needed to have this range would seriously cut into the
delivery capacity.

A better 0 emission alternative that is already being tested in real world
applications [1] is battery power with a fuel cell range extender. Loop Energy
has a fuel cell that is cheaper than diesel per mile with comparable range for
the drayage, bus, and port/distribution markets.

Despite Musk's disparaging remarks about fuel-cell tech, until a major
breakthrough happens in batteries, fuel cells are the best way to make battery
powered heavy-duty trucks a reality from both a cost and practicality stand-
point.

[1] - [http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/loop-energy-fuel-
ce...](http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/loop-energy-fuel-cell-range-
extended-yard-truck-in-operation-2228935.htm)

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nbanks
Remember that the reason a supercharger takes an hour to charge is due to the
limits of battery chemistry. If you quadruple the size of a battery, it will
still take only an hour to charge. Presumably Tesla has a super-duper charger
in mind which will be able to charge a truck in an hour just like normal super
chargers can charge several vehicles simultaneously. Creating a high
voltage/amperage charging system would be easier than swapping batteries.

Truckers often prefer driving many hours at a time, but most would be willing
to pay more for a rig that needs to stop every 4-5 hours to recharge the truck
if the fuel costs are much lower. Owner-operators can only drive around 13
hours a day anyway. Maintenance costs should also be lower. Electric trucks
should win a few years after you can find super-duper chargers everywhere.

I look forward to the day we never have to hear another Jake brake.

~~~
eru
Good analysis!

Only:

> Owner-operators can only drive around 13 hours a day anyway.

Let's see how this changes with self-driving trucks in a few years. It seems
like electric trucks and self-driving will arrive in the mainstream at roughly
the same time.

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gigatexal
Not sure how this will compete with traditional long haul incumbents unless
they can get battery swapping down. Also if they can find a way to keep the
batteries and the efficiency up in extreme heat and extreme cold (truckers
experience it all) then they will have something truly interesting on their
hands. Otherwise, and this is unlikely, if they intend for truckers to do 200
- 300 miles on a charge and then hit up a special truckers only supercharger
this isn't going to work.

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yahna
If it is autonomous (which I still think is years and years away) then you
just swap trucks.

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codeulike
_Tesla responded to Reuters questions with an email statement saying, "Tesla’s
policy is to always decline to comment on speculation, whether true or untrue,
as doing so would be silly. Silly!”'_

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zie
I think their first foray into autonomous trucking will be "follow trucks", so
you have 1 human driver, but 2 or 3 trucks that follow the leader, without a
driver.

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franciscop
IMHO trucks are not the best option right now, the best option to launch them
is when they get fully automated driving. This could be 2-10 years later
judging from Tesla history (I know, automated driving has been in the 5-year-
range for the last 50 years). However, specially for trucks, when these come
out who would want a non-automated truck? Unless of course they are forward-
compatible, then I have said nothing ;)

~~~
woodandsteel
I could be wrong, but I am guessing automating trucks is easier than doing it
with autos. That's because so many trucks drive standard, well-mapped routes,
whereas cars generally have to be able to go anywhere.

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paulsutter
Could (extra) battery packs be in the trailers? Which often spend a lot of
time getting loaded and present a good opportunity for recharging?

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Aron
I think it's interesting to point out that the semi program can exist as a
halo program for Tesla consumer trucks i.e. the Ford F-150, GM Pickup bread
and butter market which is unbelievably profitable in the US. e.g. if you can
0-60 a 40 ton load in 10 seconds, then maybe I want your product. I think the
solving long-range is a down-the-road shibboleth.

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oh_sigh
200-300 miles may sound minimal, but it is the sweet spot for day trips like
the article mentions. A lot of truck drivers don't want to be on the road away
from home for extended periods, and so take jobs that are A->B->A, doable in
one day, which works out to about 200-300 miles per leg.

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joering2
How about running "aid trucks" that would be going next to truck on highway to
charge it remotely, like jet fighters grt refueled? Once fully chearged aid
truck make u-turn and feed off another truck going opposite way.

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Apes
This doesn't sound very promising. There may be a niche of some kind here, but
this is a very expensive, very short distance and very light weight
alternative to diesel trucks.

* 200-300 miles is around a 5 hour day when long haul trucking typically has a 10 hour day.

* 4.7 ton payload (9,400 pounds) when the average local haul is probably closer to 10 tons.

* Overnight recharging on a platform that values short downtimes.

* Will likely cost 2x what a diesel truck costs.

What you have here is a truck that costs twice as much and goes half as far
with half as much load. The price/ton to operate this electric truck is going
to be 4-8x what it is to haul with a diesel truck.

If Telsa keeps pushing forward with this as is, business majors are going to
be studying it in 10-15 years as an example of a terrible business decision
that was pushed through despite all the red flags.

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nols
This wouldn't be suitable for long range OTR trucking, but great for shorter
regional trucking. Delivery drivers like UPS or Fedex don't hit 200 miles a
day and other trucks in denser areas also travel shorter distances and diesel
fumes in urban areas is a huge concern. There are plenty of use cases for an
electric truck that can travel 200 miles, even if it won't immediately replace
diesel or gas.

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mjevans
What if there were an add-on (quick swap) battery pack, or if they were bolted
on under the mid-section of the cargo loads?

~~~
akira2501
I've run the numbers before.. and yes, you could do this. It will considerably
impact the weight that a truck can pull, though. You're going to sacrifice
anywhere from 5,000 lbs to 15,000lbs of load capacity depending on how much
capacity you want and how much armor you're going to need (an exploding semi
radial is not something to disregard).

The _real_ problem is charging capacity, especially in large depots and yards.
You're going to need a rather insane tap into the grid in order to pull the
current necessary to re-charge these batteries in anything less than a day,
and if you can't do that, you're going to end up with a huge stockpile of
batteries and a new set of logistics challenges you're going to have to absorb
to make it work.

Part of logistics currently is to track fuel prices across the country, and
determine based upon the trucks location the "correct" amount of fuel to put
in the truck to get the best pricing given the miles needed to travel. You're
going to have to re-build this entire system and track electrical rates.

Finally.. consider that some loads in this country will travel for 2,000 miles
or more on a truck before being delivered. A 300 mile capacity battery is
utterly ineffective for this mode. It _might_ be better suited to mid-size
local delivery trucks that never stray more than 100 miles from their depot,
outside of that, it's doable, but it introduces more problems than it solves.

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erikb
Please don't write in Imperial numbers in an international comunication
platform. Most of us don't know what a mile is compared to a kilometer. (Yes
you can google it, but you have no 'feeling' for it still, and why put the
workload on many that could be done by a single person?)

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dehugger
The title is taken from the headline of the article, which was written by an
American news company, about an American corporation, about a product destined
to debut on American roads. It makes sense to use American measurements
considering the context.

I'll concede that it is a bit silly for America to still be on the Imperial
system.

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erikb
Or it makes sense to change the American measurements.

Btw I'm not native English and I use English to write this comment despite
being born in this non-English country, being grown with my native language,
and still being in this country while writing this comment. Why do I do this?

Because we are an international platform.

