

Points For Toothbrushing: The Gaming Speech Everyone Is Talking About - louislouis
http://www.kotaku.com/5479125/points-for-toothbrushing-the-gaming-speech-everyone-is-talking-about

======
rauljara
The talk is a really good one: thought provoking, and worth the watch. I
really don't think he's right about his grand vision of where the technology
is headed, though. The point system attracts a certain percentage of the
population, its true. But most people just don't get obsessed by points. Only
gamers really get really obsessed by the them, and not even all gamers do.
E.g. The credit card industry has been using the point rewards system forever,
and it does drive sales, but if it were really the be all end all, all credit
cards would have point rewards systems.

I think that Jesse Schell, while a really smart, insightful guy, has trouble
seeing the universe from outside the perspective of a hardcore gamer. E.g., he
sounded pretty shocked that the wii did so well. I remember when the video of
the Nintendo execs playing tennis was going around, and a lot of hardcore
gamers failed to see the appeal. Everyone else was just like, man, that looks
insanely fun. If you can't intuitively see the appeal of products that have a
lot of mass appeal, it's kind of hard to predict where the technology is going
to go.

Not saying I would be any better at predicting things. I just don't see his
predictions quite adding up.

~~~
teej
I disgaree that only gamers get caught up in points. There are 80 million
people (very few of which identify as gamers) who find value in the number of
"points" hey have on their virtual farm. 40% of those people will log in on
Monday to see how high their score is, and blow some time improving it.

Context can have a huge affect on what motivates people.

~~~
Snark7
This is absolutely correct - the average FB gamer is a middle-aged female.
Farmville is a substitute for soaps and being superior to members of your peer
group (just like tennis, car, golf score, the plays you see, etc...)

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spatulon
Here's a rebuttal that I've seen linked all over the place, especially by game
designers, anxious that their lofty dreams of high art will fall by the
wayside to creating simple carrots on sticks.

[http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2010/2/22/external-rewards-and-
je...](http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2010/2/22/external-rewards-and-jesse-
schells-amazing-lecture.html)

~~~
camccann
For context, Sirlin is the "Playing to Win" guy. He's pretty much the patron
saint of games that reward real player skill instead of rewarding "wasting a
lot of time doing the same thing over and over".

Unfortunately, I have yet to be convinced that there's a significant market
for Sirlin's approach compared to the "click button for victory" style. So if
someone can find an upside or benefit to the latter, all the better.

~~~
dasil003
One such reason is the life-cycle of fads. Farmville and its ilk are not
building the long-term brand equity that companies (or artists!) need to
become stable. Their success just represents clever use of a new social
medium, but the same thing that made them spread virally so quickly will cause
people to abandon them quickly as well. Once the majority of Farmville players
become ex-players and telling everyone how much of a waste of time it is, the
engagement will fall off a cliff. Sure, Zynga will try to string people out
with new games, but there is diminishing returns for something that offers
players little more than addiction. Doesn't matter though because it's an epic
money grab anyway.

The people out there making real games are no doubt feeling a twinge of
jealousy at the insane profits Zynga is raking in right now. However this is
just what happens with new market opportunities. Look at how Atari caused the
crash of the home video game industry in the early 80s by following a similar
strategy to Zynga (I remember playing ET as a child and just wondering what
the hell the point even was).

------
jayair
The most important takeaway for me is that people have a hard time telling the
difference between the perceived value and the real value of things. So if you
can't increase the real value of things, go and increase their perceived value
instead.

And so moving forward brands are going to tap into this a lot more. They have
been doing this to a certain degree but by marrying the online world with
reality there is a greater opportunity to do this. An example of this is the
mafia wars idea where I am beating my real friends in a game. There is also
the part where they can make the perceived value more apparent. So a good
example of this is the point system; buy 5 subs and get the sixth one free.

So when you put the two effects together marketers and brands can really
benefit from the great increase in perceived value. An example would be where
something you normally do (like brushing your teeth) can have a much greater
perceived value when the brands show you that (a) you are doing better than
your peers and (b) doing it multiple times helps you level up (and possibly
get free stuff in the future).

------
CapitalistCartr
I used to brush my teeth reliably, but half-halfheartedly, not being the
slightest bit attentive. Then I put $4,000 into my mouth in a few months, and
my viewpoint shifted completely. Now I pay attention when I brush.

~~~
cperciva
Just curious -- what does $4k get you? A couple of root canals & crowns?

~~~
CapitalistCartr
Mostly several miserable afternoons with a drill whining in my mouth, wishing
I were still at work. Motivations varies from person to person, but a personal
investment, not necessarily of money, is the key.

P.S. the 4K was just my part; insurance paid the bulk of it.

------
thefool
I think the idea more than anything is that such a system would encourage
(force?) people to be more engaged in their advertisements (like the high 5
example he gave).

In this way, having a more integrated point system is a very natural extension
of everything that happens today. The only difference is that because
everything is so connected, people will be much more aware of it, and the
advertising will be much more effective.

The question is if this is a good thing...

------
Tichy
Unfortunately, if you are brushing your teeth, you are not really making
progress. You are just slowing down the decay of the status quo. So if you
reward yourself with points for brushing teeth, you are still kidding
yourself.

On the other hand, maybe a game with decaying experience points would be a
good idea. If you don't do anything, you lose experience - evil. Could be
gamers wouldn't like it, or else it would have been tried.

------
malkia
Note to self: I have to find better names for the articles I post :)

FYI: I've posted this 2 days, ago, but to me getting points is a game, so I'll
just learn from louislouis

Heh, here is my link - 1.5 days before this one -
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1149402>

~~~
louislouis
You know, when I tried to post this earlier it referred me back to your post
from 2 days ago. I was gona comment on it with something like 'oh shame this
didn't make frontpage HN cos its really good'. Instead I resubmitted and
bypassed the url-duplication filter by adding www to it.

~~~
awa
"Instead I resubmitted and bypassed the url-duplication filter by adding www
to it."

Why?

~~~
louislouis
I thought it was a really good video and other HNers should see it. The 2 day
old post only had 2 points and would never have gotten any more traction.

~~~
bd
5 days ago <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1142424>

8 days ago <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1138142>

~~~
louislouis
lol oops, guess I missed them posts.

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calcnerd256
Why doesn't the dad give his daughter points when he's proud of her? When
society has a bunch of different points systems like that, social points from
each individual ought to be one kind of points system. It could help make
trust networks, too.

~~~
Tichy
I don't think you can substitute love with points.

Though given how many relationships break up over World of Warcraft, maybe
points are better than love. (I don't know how many relationships break up
over WoW, but I could imagine it's a few).

~~~
calcnerd256
Don't think of it as substitution. Think of it as telling the computer (and
thus the world). It also provides a log, so the next time you're happy or mad
at them, the computer can remind you of a good thing they did.

------
dmoney
Related: Bot Mediated Reality: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1028565>

------
nazgulnarsil
I watch in amusement as the rest of the world discovers that computer games
are fun.

All it really took were better UI's, and networking.

------
amichail
Here's a different way to use games to motivate people:

[http://www.google.com/buzz/amichail/PduXBSByfSD/Game-
driven-...](http://www.google.com/buzz/amichail/PduXBSByfSD/Game-driven-high-
school-education-Why-not-focus-on)

------
sailormoon
IMO that talk is beenz-level bullshit. Ask yourself this - would _you_ use
this? I sure wouldn't. And designing for other people is one of the key
pitfalls of tech.

You know why I brush my teeth? It's because I want my teeth to be clean and I
want to keep all of them and not have bad breath. I don't need points. Or, if
you must, I already got the "clean, healthy, attractive" points already.

I don't need some arbitrary xbox achievements for brushing my teeth, thanks, I
already got the points from the lowest level computer there is - reality.

~~~
abstractbill
Right, and _I_ wouldn't play FarmVille either but, according to the talk, more
people do that than have Twitter accounts.

Given that, and the other similar points the presenter makes, I don't find it
at all unbelievable that a large percentage of the population would indeed
brush their teeth for points.

~~~
sailormoon
_more people [play FarmVille] than have Twitter accounts_

but will they in a year? Two years?

FarmVille seems to be an incredible fad to me; finally people can play a game
with their real friends' names.

But in the end I have to wonder about what the possible value of such games
is. Surely not too many people with any purchasing power are wasting time
tending to an imaginary cow or whatever.

~~~
pmarsh
Here's the thing about fads, there's always a new one to take its place.

Usually a little different and sometimes a little better in ways, but still a
fad that pretty much does the same thing.

People might get bored with the farmville rewards, but I'm sure something will
take its place.

And even if the userbase falls by 50% or even 75% in 2 years, that's still a
freaking huge number of users.

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dbz
I got 243 points for using HN!

~~~
mortenjorck
Alas, now it's only 240.

