
Linus Torvalds in sweary rant about punctuation in kernel comments - sebhack
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/11/linus_torvalds_in_sweary_rant_about_punctuation_in_kernel_comments/
======
ivraatiems
Every time Linus Torvalds' rude behavior comes up on HN, people leap to his
defense. Then, people leap on top of those people for leaping to his defense.
Personally, I fall strongly in the "he's rude and annoying and should stop it"
camp. For the sake of productive discussion, I'd like to list a few things
that are not valid defenses to his dickishness:

1) "He's a visionary developer." Yes, but plenty of visionaries are also
friendly and polite. You can have a strong opinion and argue it strongly
without descending into namecalling.

2) "He's built something millions use." That we live a world where having
success allows you to be a jerk is a bug, not a feature. Respect for the Linux
kernel would be respecting the people who work on it, which Linus rarely does.

3) "Kernel developers are used to this kind of behavior and can take it." That
doesn't meant they ought to have to. And plenty of kernel developers have
left. It feels like there's a big to-do about somebody retiring from the
kernel once every couple of years, at least.

4) "It's his project and he can do what he wants with it." Maybe. It's largely
the world's project now. But even if it were totally his, having the right to
do something doesn't mean one ought to do something.

5) "You couldn't do it, so shut up and let Linus do his job." It's not, and
has never been, about me.

I hope that by listing these, I can short-circuit some of the repetitive
arguments on this topic... or at least confine them to one comment chain.

~~~
pdkl95
> I fall strongly in the "he's rude and annoying

That's your opinion, which is fine, but remember that other people may have
their own opinions.

> and should stop it"

I think he's handled many situations very well. Mr. Torvalds only uses this
type of language after a problem has persisted for a long time, usually after
repeated attempts (either directly or through his "lieutenants") to fix the
problem.

If the polite nudges don't work, stronger language can be necessary. There is
a difference between careful use of strong language to make a specific point,
and a personal attack or continuing grudge.

Mr. Torvalds has always had strict standards for code formatting because mix-
styles eventually becomes a mess that is harder to maintain. Attacking the
coding style is good management. It's cherry-picking to pull the one swear
word he used.

> rude behavior

Sometimes strong language caries _meaning_. Cultural differences can make this
a bit of a gray area, but in this case, a minor use of strong language was
very effective at conveying just how bad those comment styles are for the
long-term maintenance of the kernel.

It's slightly too long to include here directly, but please read this short
work (poem? blank verse?), "How a plan becomes policy".

[http://ogun.stanford.edu/~bnayfeh/plan.html](http://ogun.stanford.edu/~bnayfeh/plan.html)

I'm not trying to justify arbitrary use of swearing or other rudeness. I'm
suggesting that strong language is _data_ which is foolish to ignore if it's
used carefully.

> [items 1-5]

Most of these seem to be projection, not actual arguments that are used in the
defense of the language.

~~~
ivraatiems
> Mr. Torvalds only uses this type of language after a problem has persisted
> for a long time, usually after repeated attempts (either directly or through
> his "lieutenants") to fix the problem.

That's not true. See for instance this message [1] and its follow-up email
[2]. My reading of that example is that the person Linus is yelling at didn't
even know there was an issue until the yelling started. That's not appropriate
behavior.

> There is a difference between careful use of strong language to make a
> specific point, and a personal attack or continuing grudge.

Yes, and conduct like what's said in the article, and mentioned above, and
countless other examples, fall on the personal attack side of the line.

> Sometimes strong language caries meaning. Cultural differences can make this
> a bit of a gray area, but in this case, a minor use of strong language was
> very effective at conveying just how bad those comment styles are for the
> long-term maintenance of the kernel.

In this case I suppose you could argue that it is minor. In many cases it is
not. Yes, strong language carries meaning, but I think we disagree about what
that meaning is. Plus, you can have strong language without being insulting or
cussing someone out.

But even so, do you really think anybody would have ignored Linus if he'd said
"this is the comment style I want for kernel code, and I expect you all to
abide by that requirement"?

> I'm suggesting that strong language is data which is foolish to ignore if
> it's used carefully.

It's not being used carefully. It's being used aggressively and in a personal
manner. Linus himself has admitted this. [3]

[1] [http://marc.info/?l=linux-
acpi&m=136157944603147&w=2](http://marc.info/?l=linux-
acpi&m=136157944603147&w=2)

[2] [http://marc.info/?l=linux-
acpi&m=136158011003318&w=2](http://marc.info/?l=linux-
acpi&m=136158011003318&w=2)

[3]
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/07/passion_of_torvalds/](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/07/passion_of_torvalds/)

------
danso
As in other controversial Linus-rants, I feel that, sure, some of his phrasing
is gratuitous, but I prefer his brutal and _thorough_ critiques to the way
that some maintainers shut down issues with a smug and glib one-line
statement. I didn't read the entire thread, just the single message in
question, so I don't know if there's been a buildup (I mean, besides the many
years Linus has spent as a developer) to this blowup. And I don't follow the
mailing list so I don't know if Linus is half-jokingly playing into his
pigeonhole of a reputation.

But I do respect that a developer who has created incalculable good for the
world and is established enough to quit and live happily on a tropical island
still gives a shit enough about things like readability to be irate about it,
and to take the time to type out a "sweary" essay of examples and elaboration.
_Someone_ has to care, and I'm glad it's someone of his stature. I know I'm
making an appeal to authority, but I tolerate a sweary rant from someone like
Linus differently than from a middle manager who wants to be cock of the walk
in office politics.

------
jswny
I really don't think this is an important topic and the article is of little
substance with a fairly clickbaity image to top it all off. However, I do
agree that the comment styles mentioned in the article that Torvalds
supposedly dislikes are ugly. Code should look appealing when possible for
sure, no reason to use those unbalanced comment styles.

~~~
luso_brazilian
To add to that the author really seems to have an axe to grind with Linus. The
suggested read on "More from The Register" links, all accompanied by the same
"Linux middle finger" or "Linux Nuttella" images:

 _> Linus Torvalds in sweary rant about punctuation in kernel comments:
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/11/linus_torvalds_in_sw...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/11/linus_torvalds_in_sweary_rant_about_punctuation_in_kernel_comments/)
_

_> Linus Torvalds releases Linux 4.6:
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/16/linus_torvalds_relea...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/16/linus_torvalds_releases_linux_46/*)

An excerpt:

_> Torvalds says "I'll start doing merge window pull requests for 4.7 starting
tomorrow." Expect that release about two months from now, unless Linus takes a
summer break or things go awry in some unpredicable fashion.*

 _> Linus Torvalds wavers, pauses - then gives the world Linux 4.5:
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/15/linux_4_5_released/*](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/15/linux_4_5_released/*)

An excerpt:

_> Linux often caters to esoteric tastes, which is why this time around
Torvalds has seen fit to include code that does a better job handling PS/2
mice. For both of you still using those. *

 _> Latin-quoting Linus Torvalds plays God by not abusing mortals:
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/06/latinquoting_linus_t...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/06/latinquoting_linus_torvalds_plays_god_by_inoti_abusing_mortals/*)

_> Linus Torvalds warns he's in no mood to be polite as Linux 4.2 drags:
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/03/linus_torvalds_in_no...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/03/linus_torvalds_in_no_mood_to_be_polite_as_work_on_linux_42_drags/)
*

 _> Linux infosec outfit does a Torvalds, rageblocks innocent vuln spotter:
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/27/linux_security_bug_r...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/27/linux_security_bug_report_row/)
_

This one is not really about Linus. It sports the same "Linus making the
middle finger" image anyway.

 _> Linus Torvalds fires off angry 'compiler-masturbation' rant:
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/01/linus_torvalds_fires...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/01/linus_torvalds_fires_off_angry_compilermasturbation_rant/)
_

All those articles come from the same author: Simon Sharwood:
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/Author/2488](http://www.theregister.co.uk/Author/2488)

I'm not commenting on the content or the substance of the linked article, just
pointing out an interesting pattern displayed by the author.

------
pgrbuc
Here's a link to the full email:
[https://lkml.org/lkml/2016/7/8/625](https://lkml.org/lkml/2016/7/8/625)

------
stuxnet79
Reminds me a lot of that Silicon Valley episode where Richard broke up with
his girl-friend because he preferred tabs whereas she preferred spaces.

~~~
lokedhs
I've never watched SV, but if he prefers tabs I'm surprised his girlfriend
didn't break up with him first.

~~~
stuxnet79
In the show Richard is billed as a compression guru - his startup is trying to
market an impressive compression algorithm he developed.

His justification for tabs over spaces in the show was they require less
bytes.

But the point of the scene was to highlight the sometimes pointless quibbling
that programmers can engage in, and how far it can go.

Is Linus Torvalds rant pointless? I'm not informed enough to risk an opinion
but I doubt the personal attacks, belittling and swearing are helping his
case.

------
ovt
I feel it's a good development that we no longer hear about Linus so much--
unlike in the 90s, when it seemed he was taken excessively seriously.

------
Aaronik
Lol I agree with Thorvalds' commenting style.

------
kstenerud
Ah yes, classic Torvalds. He's one of the old guard from back in the days of
"if it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand", back when
neckbeards took out their years of being tormented by the jocks in school on
anyone new who dares to set foot in their digital playground.

I'd never work with Torvalds. I dislike bullies.

~~~
Oletros
> "if it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand"

Isn't Torvalds doing just the contrary in this case? He advocates for easy to
read and understand comments

