
How to “get out of the building” while working full time? - htss2013
Traditional lean startup advice says to keep your full time job while working on your statup on the side, at least until you gain traction...most of all you need to talk to real prospective customers about your product to gauge real market interest, lest you build something nobody wants.<p>But how are you supposed to do that with a full time gig that has you technically under an inventions assignment agreement?<p>Those agreements, arguably, would own anything you create while employed, at least if it&#x27;s somewhat related to your full time job. Granted, their enforceability is questionable in a lot of cases (especially in California)...<p>But even forgetting legalities for a second, that&#x27;d be a hell of an awkward conversation if your boss&#x2F;team realized that you&#x27;ve been building&#x2F;pitching your own products on the side without telling anyone. Reactions could range from firing to, most likely, just a general distrust, like you&#x27;re trying to sneak one foot out the door on the sly.<p>Maybe some folks are really lucky and could just openly lay it all out on the table, but I don&#x27;t think that&#x27;s practical for everyone, especially those in large Bay Area companies.<p>I know personally if I asked my boss for permission, the 95% most likely result would be for her to put me in touch with legal...and the legal department is by-the-book, so of course they&#x27;d never give me any sort of permission or interpret anything remotely in my favor. I may as well just skip that route.<p>So any advice about the tactics of how to approach this? How to get real potential-customer feedback without risking your full time job?
======
drawkbox
You've discovered the reason many go freelance while building their own
products. It is much easier to base agreements on a project level rather than
the ol' full-time we own everything you do end all contract that is a full
contract or full time employment agreement.

I try to only sign agreements that match the type of job, i.e. I might agree
on a non-compete for 6 months if it is a 3-6 month contract with a paid non-
compete period, but not a 6 month non compete on a 2 week job. Outside of a
full time job businesses have to pay for their anti-competitive ways if they
want you to sign a non-compete/work-for-hire that is not an acceptable
timeline. NDAs, work-for-hire when fulfilled with payment are not a problem
usually.

Non-competes are destroying innovation and force people to go indie.

In the game industry, contracts there (old school ones) also sign you on to
own ALL of your on time and off time products. So you will always see people
in the game industry break out on their own when looking to publish otherwise
it is owned by the employer or could be.

I would do what you need to do though, no matter what they won't like a
worker's time/focus being consumed with another project. Better to keep this
one to yourself and do not work with anyone from that job on it, that could
get you into trouble. You have one foot out the door now if you are doing
this. If you do get big enough for them to notice and it is a problem then you
can continue with that path. I wouldn't even worry about them caring about it
unless you are directly competing or working with a client of theirs, both of
those reasons will be problematic and wrong. And again, do not work with other
employees there on this venture. That is where it becomes a very problematic
and wrong.

------
malanj
I would suggest that you start with "customer development" in the Steve Blank
sense of the word. See [http://steveblank.com/category/customer-
development/](http://steveblank.com/category/customer-development/)

In my experience you can get very far with not building anything. Just talking
to people, in your chosen domain, about the pains they experience daily is a
great start. In a way you could use your situation to your advantage. If you
can't easily build things that you "own", it prevents you from putting
building ahead of learning.

At the start of a new venture, talking to people about problems they face has
almost always been more valuable to me than building things for them. However
inevitably I focused on building rather than talking, and most of the real
learning was an accidental sideshow to my building effort. If you're a coder
it takes great discipline to put learning ahead of building. So you've got a
distinct advantage in your current situation. No-one's going to fire you for
talking to people about their pain points.

~~~
jiggy2011
This probably applies more to business focused startups than consumer ones. I
know so many people who ridiculed twitter and ipads when they came out and now
use both on a daily basis.

~~~
27182818284
That's less relevant, because that's Apple now as a major, global force in
business.

Going back to the old days, Apple certainly understood their customers. The
best example I can think of is when Woz was asked how many they could sell and
he immediately said, "A million!" When pressed how he could be so sure, he
replied "Because there are at least a million ham radio operators" Obviously
it isn't a radio, but he understood that nerds into ham radio would be the
same ones wanting a personal Apple computer in their basement. In that sense,
really what getting out of the building means is a deep, deep connection and
understanding with your customers.

~~~
jiggy2011
It's true that market understanding and research are important for all
businesses, what I mean is asking for specific requirements from your
customers and designing around those is less useful.

That's probably less true however if you're selling something to a market of
serious hobbyists who treat the hobby like a second job because they have
probably spent a lot of time thinking about the problems with current
products. On the other hand, if you asked me which features are important for
a dishwasher I'd be unlikely to give you useful answers because I don't spend
much time thinking about dishwashers.

Another factor is that fashion is a bigger deal in the consumer space, if your
product is associated with "cool" people will buy it regardless of whether it
solves a real problem.

~~~
w1ntermute
Doing something in the B2C space tends to involve a lot of luck, particularly
when it comes to generating that "cool" image. That's the main reason I've
always been drawn to B2B, where the customers tend to understand their needs a
lot better.

------
heeton
If you're technically under an inventions assignment agreement, then you're
acting in bad faith by doing this in the first place. It's not being caught
that results in distrust, it's being untrustworthy.

I'm not saying that the company is right in taking any work you do outside of
office hours (I think that's total crap), I'm saying that you've made an
agreement and now you're trying to work around it.

In an ideal world, you'd get permission - or work for a company that
understands. Of course, the world isn't ideal :)

~~~
DennisP
That depends on the agreement. Some claim rights over everything, others only
over things related to the company's business, or to what you personally work
on. Also, various states limit such things, and if the employer overreached it
could be unenforceable. I don't think it's bad faith to ignore a contract that
the state says is too unfair to enforce.

My suggestion: read the contract carefully, make a list of specific questions,
and spend an hour talking with a lawyer.

~~~
jsmthrowaway
> Some claim rights over everything, others only over things related to the
> company's business

Mine was limited to the company's primary business. Then I asked the founder
(of Linode) what "the company's primary business" entailed. He smugly replied
"computers."

~~~
ams6110
Vague, all-encompassing definitions like that generally don't hold up in
court.

------
pm
It may sound obvious, but I would (besides the customer development which has
already been mentioned), begin looking for a job at a place which gives you
more latitude. There are some companies who get it, and some companies who
don't.

~~~
tdicola
So now put a job hunt on top of trying to create a startup idea and keep a
roof over your head? Doesn't seem very practical unfortunately.

~~~
pm
No, OP will have to focus on one thing at a time. So it's going to take longer
to begin, but sometimes these things can't be helped.

------
beachstartup
i would start on my project and i would convert to a 1099 contractor and run
it through your startup's paper (LLC or S-Corp). your current employer can be
your first customer.

in fact that's exactly what we did and it worked fine. you might even end up
getting a raise. i know one thing for damn sure though: there's no way in hell
a full time job and a making progress on startup are compatible. it's just too
much work. if someone came to me for advice or money and they wanted to do
this, i'd laugh in their face, in the nicest way possible. it's a pipe dream.
the only cases i've heard of in which this was possible are jobs in
dysfunctional orgs where you don't actually have to do any work - which are
out there, so if you've got one of those, maybe you've got a shot.

this path requires you to quit. it's a way of solving the problem you describe
through another mechanism. as an added bonus, it protects you legally in a
number of ways. at the cost of some management overhead, but if you can't deal
with management overhead, just forget about the idea of running a business.

there's two ways of doing this:

1\. notifying your boss that you will quit, and that they can retain you as a
contractor for $x/hr, or

2\. just quitting, and then giving them the option.

either way, you don't ask permission in a situation like this. you have to do
it for reals.

the most important thing in starting a business is getting into the mindset
that you are in this for yourself, on your own, and this is for real, no
bullshit. having a full time gig is extremely detrimental to adopting that
mindset. most startups die because never being truly started. they just fizzle
out with nary a whimper.

also, look at it like a test - if you can't even accomplish this minor task in
the execution of your world changing startup, you probably don't have what it
takes to do the next step either. this convert-to-contractor trick is
extremely common and i've seen it done 3 or 4 times myself. if you are
valuable, the current organization is going to want to retain you as long as
possible and you can dictate terms to a certain degree.

~~~
htss2013
Just to clarify, I'm not on a mission to start a "world changing
startup"...I'm a mission to create a nice little lifestyle SaaS business that
will generate 3-5K in MRR.

Maybe I'm naive, but it seems completely realistic to get to that point with a
full time gig. Beyond that, sure, you probably have to quit to grow, but
quitting at that point isn't risky because you've already proven you've got
traction.

------
arnonejoe
This is an area that I have sought legal counsel over in the past. I'm not a
lawyer but I believe California and 8 other states have laws that protect
employees intellectual property that they create on their own time with their
own resources ([http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-
bin/displaycode?section=lab&gr...](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-
bin/displaycode?section=lab&group=02001-03000&file=2870-2872)).

As far as it being ethical, is it ethical for an employer to have a monopoly
on your time on and off hours?

As a general rule I will never sign anything that requires I disclose all my
"inventions" up front. Most of these agreements will usually claim all of your
intellectual property well beyond your termination date. The attorney I spoke
to said that even a love letter to my wife is covered under the agreement that
I had sought counsel over.

The market is really good right now for software engineers. If more candidates
would turn down job offers that stipulate these agreements maybe companies
would get the hint.

------
j_lev
If you are in a customer-facing role or in constant conversation with
customers there should be no issue with you tacking-on a question or two
related to potential enhancements. You have plausible deniability, and you
also have the option at any stage of not running with this yourself and
actually doing it via the company (which is what your employer is most likely
expecting).

One guy in a previous team of mine brazenly and proficiently used Socratic
Method on the phone with clients to direct the conversation, getting clients
to come up with answers to the questions he was looking to answer. This was
genius not only because he covertly gauged market interest but also because
having the client come up with the answer themselves makes them more inclined
to buy.

It's a massive grey area and you have a lot of scope as long as no-one can pin
anything on you (and as you mention, you want to avoid coming across as
dishonest).

Regarding being honest and laying it all out on the table, I strongly advise
against this route. Nothing good will come of it.

------
rustyconover
First and foremost, reconsider signing any of these assignment agreements
ever. If you're talented and the company wants you, you have plenty of room to
negotiate. And since this isn't a compensation or revenue impacting deal point
you'll should find leeway. If they say its our way or nothing, its some quick
insight into the organizational structure and culture. Consider if you wish to
aid and abet that organization and management.

It should be a point of personal principal to never sign an NDA or an
assignment agreement or even employment agreement. Of course the any of these
that come with 9 figure checks attached are worth thinking about. If you're
trustable and upstanding with who you're working for and they are with you,
that will be enough.

------
regedanzter
Its a matter of risk. You will regret the things that you don't do more than
the things you do. So just go for it.

------
GuiA
Man, the nerve of some people.

You're working at a company, where you willingly signed a work contract, which
included things like "when you're at work you will work" and "since we're
paying you we'd like your full attention when you're at work". They're paying
you to produce work according to said contract. You're also probably in tech,
which means that your employer isn't Walmart or McDonald's or an Indonesian
sweat shop and you're generously compensated in money and benefits.

And now you're asking the internet for tips on how to break that contract
without getting caught. Really? Even the 11th graders I teach have more common
sense than that.

Your non-immoral options are:

1) try to change your current position to part time so you can deal with your
other business on the side.

2) quit your job, and find another job that will let you work on your side
business during work hours (improbable)

3) quit your job, and go freelance to fund your venture (or wait tables, make
coffee at Starbucks, whatever it is you need to do to pay your rent).

4) quit your job, go all in using your savings.

No matter what, sneaking around and knowingly breaking your work contract and
inventions agreement won't end well for you. At best you'll get fired, at
worst you'll get sued.

PS: since you're trying to start a company, what would you think if down the
line you found out that one of your employees posted exactly this on HN?

~~~
new299
The questioner wrote:

"But how are you supposed to do that with a full time gig that has you
technically under an inventions assignment agreement?

Those agreements, arguably, would own anything you create while employed, at
least if it's somewhat related to your full time job. Granted, their
enforceability is questionable in a lot of cases (especially in
California)..."

Which means, his employer put a stipulation in the contract which means they
own everything done while at work, or anything done outside of work (even if
it's not related to the job).

I would guess those stipulations are not really enforceable, but I don't know.

You wrote: "since you're trying to start a company, what would you think if
down the line you found out that one of your employees posted exactly this on
HN?"

I'm not the OP, but in my case I encourage my employees to have side projects.
Even projects that could turn into businesses. I don't own them, and having
those outlets often makes them better employees. They obviously have non-
competes in their contract, which cover our area of business, but not
unrelated side-projects.

As a side note, I don't understand why your comment is so aggressive. You're
probably right, in that if the contract is really as the poster states the
safest thing is to find another job. However overall I think the moral fault
lies with the employer, you shouldn't be able to restrict your employees in
this way.

~~~
crdoconnor
>As a side note, I don't understand why your comment is so aggressive.

The cult of the "sanctity of contracts" is alive and well in America among
some so-called libertarians (I think some like to call themselves voluntarists
or something like that).

I suspect they wouldn't mind having debt contracts with default clauses
leading to 'voluntary' slavery much like occurred during the Roman empire.

------
nickbauman
If you lived in Minnesota, an inventions assignment agreement is
unenforceable. Employers cannot legally condition employment based on an
assignment of inventions unrelated to the employee's work, or made on the
employee's own time, or not based on the employer’s trade secrets, equipment,
or resources. The MN statute 181.78 lays this out clearly.

MN is a great place for you to work on your lean startup no matter what kind
of work you do to pay the bills.

------
hellbanTHIS
Well I'm a self employed house painter even though I could probably get a job
tomorrow doing either Drupal or Angular and never have to crawl around another
toilet ever again.

You gotta take some risks.

~~~
ams6110
So why do you paint bathrooms instead of doing Drupal or Angular work?

~~~
hellbanTHIS
Because I have time to invent shit.

------
blazespin
The answer is very simple,offer your company first right of refusal. You will
find that in most cases they do. And if they don't and do use your idea make
sure you are in charge. This is the high road approach. Other suggestions are
just dishonest if you ask me.

~~~
j_lev
Fair call, but I don't think this is realistic. How do you mitigate the risk
of 1) having your reputation tarred with the "dishonest" brush, and 2) being
sent to Legal to be shut down?

------
JeremyMorgan
I would keep everything above board in cases like this. Be open with your
company and let them know exactly what you intend to do. If they are upset by
it then you should probably question what it is you're doing.

------
carucez
damn near everybody is intrigued by that guy that's got one foot out the door.

say you're a double-agent. the only thing that matters is if you're working
against the common good. if you're totally on another level, you really have
nothing to worry about.

the contracts you signed when you were new and stupid are an entirely
different beast. get a good lawyer; you should be fine 9 times out of 10 as
long as you're not violating a typical no-compete clause... or that no-compete
clause over-steps its boundaries.

------
carucez
having read through a good majority of the peanut gallery, i'm compelled to
say that your contract is your duty.

having said that, ... get a good lawyer. the original contract might be vague
enough that the lawyer has had experience with similarly worded crap in the
past.

any company that tries to steal your personal development for the entire time
you're employed is not some company that you want to work with. a good fight
is just a good american spirit. fight that crap that junk corporate throws at
you.

tl;dr - fuck 'em. let the lawyers fight it out, but get a good lawyer. dollar-
for-dollar, they're worth it. no matter, your education is worth the lawyer
dollars regardless.

------
chc
I would suggest asking for things and just let the people say no if they want
to rather than rejecting yourself on their behalf without them even knowing
you want something from them.

------
rokhayakebe
What if you have not signed any agreement?

