
The Harm of Studying Abroad - jeffreyrogers
https://www.readingthechinadream.com/zhang-yongle-the-harm-of-studying-abroad.html
======
powersnail
The whole article rings false to me. Although I get that it's Zhang's personal
experience, but the reasoning makes zero sense, and it feels like he just
wanted to vent.

Some of the points seemingly have nothing to do with studying abroad, but the
nature of the university he attended, for example,

> First, you have no time. You read a lot but there’s no time to think.

This is has nothing to do with being a foreigner, or being in any specific
country. It's a university culture, and every university has its own pace of
teaching, in China or US.

And then,

> Of course, it makes no difference if you don’t go > to bookstores in the US,
> but if you bring this habit > back with you, it means that you don’t go to
> bookstores > in China

Seriously? How hard it is to consciously decide to go to a book store when you
are in need of a book? This also seems to imply that China has no good
libraries, which is untrue. I'm from a small city in China, and I borrowed so
many books from the city library. That was how I got into programming as well,
borrowing a book about Turbo Pascal.

Personally, I think the biggest difficulty for a Chinese in studying abroad in
the US, is the difficulty of being accepted into the circle. You could make
friends and acquaintances with Americans, but you're never part of "them". I
constantly feel like I'm on the wrong side of a aquarium glass pane, being
observed and judged.

There are two real choices: 1) pretend to be a white person and be extremely
amiable, or 2) fallback to the smaller circle of Chinese people in US.

~~~
L_Rahman
The final claim is hyperbolic. There absolutely is another option which is to
find people who aren't interested in performing amiability or socializing
exclusively in the safety of their ethnicity.

I made friends because we loved talking about healthcare policy, from being on
the debate team, from a shared love for Mad Men, from being interested in
starting companies. I did all of this as someone who'd spent the decade
preceding college growing up in Bangladesh, with a thick accent and somehow
ended up with a group of friends from all around the world.

I'm not saying any of this was easy, but I do think there's a self-defeating
element to believing what the parent does.

~~~
L_Rahman
In the interest of intellectual honesty, it's possible that I'm an extreme
outlier in this respect. I've spent the last year traveling around the world,
I find it really easy to share emotional vulnerability with strangers, and
I've made meaningful connections with people in every country I've lived in
for more than a week.

This is likely not true for most people.

~~~
dondawest
In the interest of intellectual honesty, I just wanted to say that I’m an
awesome person and I am literally so cool.

This is likely not true for most people.

~~~
L_Rahman
I respect the call out in this comment.

------
blaser-waffle
> The text translated here, written in 2008, has nothing to do with Zhang’s
> academic work, but instead reflects changing attitudes among younger Chinese
> intellectuals concerning the value of Western ideas and the experience of
> studying abroad.

> Zhang is surely right that doing an advanced degree in a foreign language is
> a challenge involving at times a loss of autonomy and a loss of status. More
> interesting is the overall tone of the text, which comes close to saying
> that the experience is a waste of time. This is not only because study
> abroad involves rote learning of someone else’s knowledge, but because China
> is the place to be. As Zhang puts it:

> “If you live abroad for a long time, you will miss many theoretically
> interesting things happening in China. Society in the West has been settled
> for hundreds of years, and not that much that is really new occurs. But
> China is entering a new era, full of potential.”

...

Valid points, for sure, but not everyone is reaping that new era full of
potential. China is a great place to be if you've got the right connections,
but no so great if you're gay, muslim, tibetan, or like to have opinions. Plus
the great explosion of growth of China is now slowing down. Still many
developments to come, for sure, but those may not play out in ways we expect.

Also think it's hilarious that he's bashing the U of C's "rote learning" when
that's a huge part of China's entrance exams, or how foreign Uni's will limit
your thought -- cuz the CCP tells Tsinghua "teach what you want", right?

~~~
akfanta
> China is a great place to be if you've got the right connections

This might be true for the majority of China, but for big cities like
Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, no, connections mean far less even comparing
to western world.

> but no so great if you're gay, muslim, tibetan, or like to have opinions.

Do you get this from reading western media or did you actually go there and
talk to those actual human beings? I can't speak for everywhere, but being an
ethnic minority comes with tons of perks in China. For ethnic minorities, one
child policy never applied to them, the kids get extra points during high
school/university entrance exams, my Mongolian roommate even got extra
financial support due to his ethnicity. People would fabricate document to
gain minority status because that gives their kids an edge in almost
everywhere. Growing up, as a Han Chinese, I always feel this is unfair and
absurd.

As for religions, again I can't speak for Xinjiang itself, but from my
experience in east coast, no one cares what religion you believe in. It's only
an issue when you try to challenge the government with it. You can find mosque
and churches in most cities.

And gay? Believe or not, I know it sounds absurd, but being gay is sort of a
hip thing among the youngsters. The will obviously face repulsions from older
generations, but this rings true all around the world. Bottom line is, the
general public does not actively persecute the LGBT group, nor do they care.

The only thing that would bring you trouble is having an opinion against the
government. I am not saying this is not a big issue, but stop pretending that
the country is constantly oppressing everyone.

~~~
stone-monkey
I'm not saying you're wrong,but what was the deal with the lesbian author who
was arrested for her books? There was this webcomic I read called 他们的故事 which
is about a lesbian high school couple which has gone nowhere plot wise, and
someone told me the reason why they stopped focusing on the romance part of
the story is it was the author's reaction to the news about the erotic novel
author getting arrested.

~~~
akfanta
I am pretty sure she was arrested for selling/profiting exotic sex content.
Agree with it or not, selling pornography is illegal in China. I think her
sentence has more to do with explicit sex content itself rather than being
lesbian/gay.

This is also a perfect example of media manipulation, is it not? Put on a
sensational title to grab attention, but convenient ignore the fact that
similar sentences were given out to people selling straight porn. While I
don't agree this should be illegal but this is not a good example of
prosecutions against the LGBT group.

------
emiliobumachar
Very interesting to hear a Chinese person complain about American higher
education as too rote, as I've often read complains in the HN bubble that the
Chinese system would be too rote. Perhaps things look too rote from either
side if you're missing the culture-specific subtlety? Perhaps things _are_ too
rote on both sides but it's only noticed by those from a different background?

Relevant excerpt: "The things you think about are decided by your professors,
and you follow their lead as you develop your thoughts instead of asking
yourself what questions you developed from your reading or what link it might
produce with your own background. So you just do your best to chew the cud and
digest the material. And if you actually learn something, it is transplanted
out of nothing and remains attached to its origin rather than sinking roots or
sprouting branches. When study is nothing but rote learning, who doesn’t lose
their appetite?"

~~~
knzhou
> I've often read complains in the HN bubble that the Chinese system would be
> too rote.

I've seen both sides. 99% of complaints you read on the internet are written
by people who've never been to the country they're complaining about, and
whose sum total knowledge consists of a cheap stereotype.

------
vorpalhex
From my reading of this, this is just someone who was very isolated due in
part to cultural/language barriers. I would be curious if someone who had the
same experiences but was less isolated and had social nets would have a very
different take.

> You sing the praises of whatever it is that your enemy opposes, and you
> oppose whatever your enemy praises.

That screams like someone who feels pushed out and isolated from their
immediate society (in this case, the foreign culture they were studying in).

~~~
dawg-
>I would be curious if someone who had the same experiences but was less
isolated and had social nets would have a very different take.

That's me, and I totally have a different take.

I studied abroad as a foreign language major - but only after three full years
of studying the language and culture of the country I was visiting. It was an
enriching experience and I felt pretty comfortable navigating the country
socially and professionally. Study abroad was a requirement for me to
graduate. I did the longer trip after a previous two week trip to the same
place. I met via skype with my professor back in the US weekly for an
independent study course, and that gave me the chance to reflect and make
sense of my experiences with a trusted mentor (who was a native of the country
herself). The professor even dropped by to visit me in person during her
summer trip to the country.

I think all of these things factored into making it an amazing experience and
time of growth, as opposed to an isolating and depressing experience. Even
with all that support and background knowledge I still dealt with my fair
share of culture shock, home sickness, and isolation - all of which are
important parts of the learning experience, in appropriate doses. But without
the support system and preparation I had, I would imagine that the experience
could have been very negative.

Study abroad is an incredible and enriching experience - but it takes a lot
more resources than just buying a college kid a plane ticket to another
country and sending them on their way. Of course that can be useful for a
certain adventurous types as well. But institutionally, study abroad takes
deliberate planning and support to make it meaningful for everybody who
participates. Otherwise it can surely be just as bad as this author makes it
out to be.

~~~
ghostpepper
How fluent were you in the language after three years? Three years of French
or Spanish might put you much further ahead than three years of Mandarin or
Russian, for example.

~~~
dawg-
It was German. I was (am?) fluent enough to function in a professional office
environment without falling back on English. Of course it was a luxury to be
in a country where I know 90% of people can just switch to English if the
conversation goes off the rails

------
atdt
I must be tone-deaf, because I picked up none of the sinister overtones that
other commenters on this thread are detecting. The text I read was amusing and
delightful, and I associate it with a genre of writing that takes a bit of
common wisdom (studying abroad is good for you) and inverts it. It reminded me
of Erasmus's In Praise of Folly. I am sadly ignorant of Chinese literature,
but I think the theme is universal. Looking at the world when you are standing
on your head is simultaneously amusing and insightful.

~~~
knzhou
I agree, and I think the overwhelmingly negative response here perfectly
illustrates the post's point. The author is thoughtful and has great, but not
perfect English. Because he's foreign, everybody concludes that it's a
sinister work of propaganda, and attributes all manner of horrible personality
traits to the author on the basis of the tiniest of mistakes.

It's absolutely predictable. I sincerely hope I won't ever have to endure the
displeasure of meeting any of these HN commenters in person.

------
chillacy
> Fourth, life is dry and boring, you don’t have friends or family, and you
> can’t sit around every day talking about the meaning of life. With time, you
> wind up really lonely, which makes you appreciate the vitality of life in
> China. When you come back, you’re like a bird let out of a cage, and your
> only urge is to fly. Who wants to study? Too bad.

Okay that has to be partially self inflicted. Too many people travel with no
attempt to integrate with locals. I will grant that it's not easy, and many
Americans fall into the same trap during their study abroad time, but that's
perhaps the great allure and challenge is it not?

~~~
bluntfang
Or option B: american racism doesn't stop at blacks.

~~~
jariel
So when's the last time you had someone very foreign, who had difficulties
with language and no social context over for beers?

Most people don't hate or even loathe foreigners and certainly not Asians, but
social circles everywhere tend to be pretty narrow.

He may have had some nice students or profs invite him on the occasional thing
out of social courtesy and genuine interest, but people really far from one
another socially are not going to get tons of 'hang time'.

As Uni becomes a little bit more simply 'where you go after high school' and
more a social experience, as opposed to being a truly academic experience, I
suggest this issue may even be exacerbated.

I don't doubt the social isolation is real for people, but I don't think
hostile language is where we need to go.

~~~
bluntfang
>So when's the last time you had someone very foreign, who had difficulties
with language and no social context over for beers?

I work with a diverse group of individuals and go out for socialization at
least once a month with my foreign peers who don't speak my language as their
first language and were born and raised in another country.

>I don't think hostile language is where we need to go.

When the POTUS is demonizing Chinese people by saying things like "the china
virus" it makes people not want to interact with Chinese people. Language is
very important, and hostile language, especially against different
nationalities, is an easy step.

------
earthboundkid
This essay is in a totally different genre than an HN blog post, so all of the
comments here are totally wide of the mark. It's like asking why Thoreau
didn't just get a telegraph line back to Boston. We don't use this genre in
the US, which reinforces the point he's making. The Analects quote at the
beginning is also crucial. All educated Chinese know that quote and ~0% of
Americans do: we have radically different cultures, not just superficially
different pop cultures. The whole argument is a sly wink in favor of
nationalism, but it's not supposed to be read on the square as simple
propaganda either.

~~~
082349872349872
Is the second (not directly quoted) part of the Analects reference important
to understanding the essay?

~~~
earthboundkid
I think it’s more just that a) having a classical allusion makes you seem
erudite in this genre b) it’s clearly part of the shared culture that you get
living in China that you could miss by living abroad. The second half where
Confucius says he no longer trusts people without observing them probably
plays some role (he’s giving his own observations) but I don’t think it’s that
important to the whole.

------
justicezyx
The source website [1] of the author is more interesting. It can be translated
into "neo-legalism", a reference to the "fa jia (legalism)" in the early
Chinese history. Fa jia is a school of thoughts that has a color of modern law
& rule-based society system, but it is truly a top-down feudalism system that
put its center around the legitimacy of the imperial court.

It does not end here though.

What they meant by the neo-legalism in the website, is actually centered a
round a blended Taoism with a shell of a codified rules & laws in the legalism
methodology. What historically is called "内圣外王", roughly "holds a saint-like
attitude internally, but sternly executes the laws like a master".

The website claims that the capticalism is going to be replaced by such a
reinvented system from the ancient tradition.

The whole thing has a strong flare of the historically-bestowed self-
righteousness of the conventional Chinese scholar, as often recognized by
western scholars on China study.

[1] [http://www.xinfajia.net/](http://www.xinfajia.net/) [2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_\(Chinese_philosophy\))

------
socrates1998
Didn't sound like he really wanted to study in America. That's fine, but if
you don't have to do something, then it's harder to get value from it.

I studied abroad because I REALLY wanted to. I was immensely looking forward
to traveling, experiencing new customs, learning new ways of thinking and even
learning more than the basics of the language.

It was an experience I will value forever.

I think a big difference is that when Americans or Europeans study abroad,
they are looking for an experience, when Chinese students (if this guy is to
be believed) are looking to pad their resumes.

Same goes for college. If you go to college so you can put it on your resume,
then you will hate it. If you go to college looking to learn, make friends and
acquire skills, then it will be fantastic.

------
superhuzza
Disclaimer: I am not Chinese.

I'm a bit dubious about a lot of the other reasons in the article, but one
strikes me as very true, perhaps just because I directly observed it.

I'm just wrapping up an MSc in the UK. One thing I have noticed in my program
is that language is a huge barrier for the Chinese students. Their questions
often reveal they are struggling to follow in lectures, they struggle to make
others understand their arguments, and they get tasked with less
responsibility in group assignments. Furthermore, the extra time needed to
read texts, write papers, and generally learn more English comes at the cost
of time spent on their actual topic of interest.

I can't imagine how demotivating this must be, and generally how much more
difficult the program must be as a result. I wouldn't be surprised at all if
some of their counterparts in China have more academic/career success as a
result of not having language as another burden.

------
aj7
What I was impressed with is the profundity to which he attaches to sitting
around and bs’ing with his Chinese buddies. And when we westerners see this,
out of the corner of our eye, we think...

~~~
novok
I'd wish they try to do it with us too!

------
ecpottinger
What would be interesting is a follow-up to see how he feels today after
returning and living in China. I bet he find life to be a lot better, yet at
the same time suddenly realizes in a conversation with his Chinese friends and
family some of the wrong assumptions they also have about the West vs his own
experiences.

------
alexashka
I feel like a lot of people commenting here don't understand that in order to
get a high rank title in China, he _had_ to go and study in the West, against
his will.

So naturally, he resisted and resented this fate, not unlike many of my
friends resented having to finish University and pass classes they had no
interest in.

The points he makes, I did not find to be insightful or interesting. They're
down to earth, simple, human observations, not unlike the stories I hear from
someone who goes on vacation. At least this guy didn't spend most of his time
talking about food :)

------
axegon_
I disagree a lot here. I did study abroad and I'd argue that this might have
been a one of the best things that has ever happened to me:

1\. This is completely false. You have just as much time as you would have had
back at home. Yes, you might have more things to worry about being on your own
but you can certainly make up for it and learn to make compromises quickly.
Expecting to come out fully prepared out of university is plain stupid. In
most scenarios you end up with an average amount of theoretical and practical
knowledge but you are nowhere before you end up crashing into your first job
when you realize that the studying is just beginning.

2\. That is highly personal. You either live with the mindset that you need a
degree to get a job or take the most out of the situation. If the degree is
your primary goal, then yes, you won't have the adequate will and
determination to better yourself. I had professors that spent 5 or 6 hours
after lectures talking to me and explaining some nitty-gritty details just
because they saw I had genuine interest. I never asked them to dedicate any
more than a few minutes but on multiple occasions we ended up staying in the
hallways way past midnight discussing different topics.

3\. I honestly don't get that point.

4\. While the friends and family statement is correct and fitting in somewhere
new is something that takes forever, regardless of the tons of effort and
dedication, if you find peace in being alone, it's a huge advantage. Sooner
rather than later I fell in love with digging deeper and deeper and following
rabbit holes that most of my peers had no clue about. Eventually I became the
second-best student by a fraction of a percent, given that I was studying in a
foreign language.

5\. Depending on what you are studying, this might be a good thing. My native
language has very little in common with the two other languages I've had to
learn, other than the fact that they are all European. Their structure is
vastly different, two different alphabets, completely different way of
constructing sentences and thoughts in general. For software engineering, I
feel like this is a brilliant mental exercise.

6\. In a vastly globalized world, this seems like a non-issue. If anything it
teaches you to look at things from multiple perspectives and take the best out
of both worlds. Certain solutions can be applied successfully in completely
opposite social and political environments and solve multiple problems in the
process.

7\. Same as 3, I really don't understand the point the author is trying to
make.

------
f00zz
This was a fun read. I totally feel what the guy is saying about thinking in a
different language, my brain turns to mush when I'm trying to communicate in
English. And I have it easy; compared to Chinese, all European languages are
basically the same.

------
travisoneill1
I agree with this criticism of US college:

> You read really quickly, discuss really quickly, turn in your papers really
> quickly. The things you think about are decided by your professors, and you
> follow their lead as you develop your thoughts instead of asking yourself
> what questions you developed from your reading or what link it might produce
> with your own background. So you just do your best to chew the cud and
> digest the material. And if you actually learn something, it is transplanted
> out of nothing and remains attached to its origin rather than sinking roots
> or sprouting branches. When study is nothing but rote learning, who doesn’t
> lose their appetite?

------
pasabagi
It seems a bit strange to view the physical 'traveling abroad' as harmful,
when he's so obviously 'traveling abroad' in thought throughout the piece -
Heidegger, after all, was not Chinese.

It also seems that a lot of what caused the century of humiliation for China
was this inward-looking tendency in Chinese culture, a tendency that left them
ignorant of western ideas and technology until it was essentially too late. It
also seems that a lot of the reinvigoration of China is due to a spirit of
openness towards the rest of the world, with western ideas (most obviously
marxism) being the driver of a phenomenal amount of change.

Not being Chinese, it makes me a bit sad to see China drift the kind of
insular, chauvinistic direction it has been going in the last few years.
Chinese culture is amazing, but it's at its very best when it's vigorously
confronting the outside world.

~~~
thisrod
> it's at its very best when it's vigorously confronting the outside world

How so? The examples that spring to my mind—Imperial Japan, the Manchurians,
that Genghis bloke—all end very badly for China and its culture.

~~~
oblio
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_treasure_voyages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_treasure_voyages)

------
abhayhegde
> Fourth, life is dry and boring, you don’t have friends or family, and you
> can’t sit around every day talking about the meaning of life.

I feel OP is projecting himself too much here. It is completely up to how a
person mingles with others, in my opinion. As long as the person is not too
unapproachable or the groupism of natives is not strongly at play, I think one
can make awesome friends and families abroad.

------
rfreytag
Archived:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20200624180614/https://www.readi...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200624180614/https://www.readingthechinadream.com/zhang-
yongle-the-harm-of-studying-abroad.html)

------
kyawzazaw
As an international student in the US, I pretty much disagree with all of what
the author is saying.

------
quantum_state
Studying abroad, like any other endeavors, is for the willing and prepared ...
not for the ones who may want to do it for the sake of doing it. Living or
traveling to any new places would enrich oneself ...

------
ipnon
His point on the nature of Western style debate and argument rings true.

------
aaron695
China needs to start pulling it's students home permanently.

Not saying the author wrote it for that purpose, but I'm sure it's being
pushed atm for that reason.

------
_aleph2c_
If what he says is true, it also means that the creative thinking at the
graduate level of many American STEM degrees has been limited. My friends who
are professors in American Universities tell me that in a lot of their
courses, there isn't an American student in their whole class; their classes
are mostly Chinese. So if their whole group has gone through a hazing-
education-process, conducted in a foreign language, they will have suffered
the kind of spiritual harm described by the author. If they stay in the US to
do their graduate work, chances are they won't be thinking out of the box.

~~~
nnoitra
That's because there's very little incentive for doing a Phd so immigrants do
it so it helps their immigration status. It would take someone to be insanely
in love in CS to forfeit 300K or so compensation for a Phd.

------
anm89
I think a more appropriate title would be "The harm of studying abroad in the
US for Chinese students"

------
elchin
I honestly can't tell if this is sarcastic or not. Especially points 4 and 5 -
this is when you learn to get out of comfort zone!

------
ericls
This article is basically someone failed at achieving something and then blame
it all to an easy target. America happens to be the easy target of his choice
this time.

------
k__
lol

If our societies are so shitty, why not let young Chinese students see for
themselves?

Then they know what they have in China.

------
rfreytag
>When study is nothing but rote learning, who doesn’t lose their appetite?

Interesting that this first criticism is commonly leveled at students from the
People's Republic of China. Does the language barrier force students to rote-
learn to keep up?

I know from personal experience studying overseas that rote-learning was my
default mode to try and keep up.

Are all the critiques of PRC students for rote-learning when studying in the
PRC false? It seems an extraordinary claim give personal and abundant reported
experience.

>If you are wearing yourself out every day, you naturally embrace the spirit
of “minimalism,” in which you do as little as possible, and once you’ve
finished something you go to sleep, loathe to take the initiative on your own
to explore anything else.

Seems language struggles could be blamed for this.

>it makes no difference if you don’t go to bookstores in the US, but if you
bring this habit back with you, it means that you don’t go to bookstores in
China either.

The third criticism seems a spurious addition to the next two.

> you wind up really lonely, which makes you appreciate the vitality of life
> in China. When you come back, you’re like a bird let out of a cage, and your
> only urge is to fly. Who wants to study?

There are many places in the PRC even today that has never seen a foreigner.
Exposure to foreign ideas and ways is limited even in the cities. The result
is a massive culture shock when going overseas. If there is a language barrier
then it is going to be hard to connect. The result is the PRC students form
small and impenetrable cliques. That has to be a lonely experience.

>trying to think in a foreign language is like trying to scratch an itch
through your boots

This is why a lot of PRC students now study abroad before going to an overseas
university to avoid these cultural and language difficulties. If they have
difficulty after that then there are other problems.

>if you live abroad for a long time, you will miss many theoretically
interesting things happening in China

There are big changes afoot in the PRC. If the student is unprepared to gain
the most from an overseas education then they shouldn't go. Since the U of C
was mentioned, the US has been underestimated many times in its past. Time
will tell which was the better choice.

The seventh criticism makes no sense to me. It seems wrong or, worse, self-
effacing in the worst way for a young vital student.

> because of various difficulties abroad, you wind up feeling rebellious, and
> spend your days arguing with foreigners.

This engagement is precisely why you go abroad and is a big part of Western
thought.

Can't say that everything is wrong but the solution is not to pull back but to
study outside the PRC with the proper expectations and preparation.

------
AnimalMuppet
The domain name for the web page is kind of interesting in this regard. Just
from the domain, I'd expect it to carry pro-China puff pieces at best,
outright propaganda at worst.

~~~
tomjakubowski
The site is edited by three Canadian history professors.

"This web site is devoted to the subject of intellectual life in contemporary
China, and more particularly to the writings of establishment intellectuals.
What you will find here are essentially translations of Chinese texts that we
consider important, together with discussions of related issues and a number
of reference tools that can help those interested to navigate the project."

[https://www.readingthechinadream.com/about.html](https://www.readingthechinadream.com/about.html)

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Interesting. I stand corrected.

------
Siira
(These articles might be politically motivated.)

------
Dahoon
Half of this thread should be flagged for racism.

------
nja4
To me, this reads as so much Chinese nationalism. Feels super consistent with
Communist propaganda of an indolent West. Also, seems very suspect to
criticize a lack of intellectual freedom by comparing it to a system without
freedom of information. I also thought that Western education was widely
considered much less about rote memorization and more about intellectual
creativity and freedom, even to the detriment of western folks' technical
skills. Even just the concept of a "liberal education" or a "liberal arts
school" is a western concept AFAIK; I do think there is a lot of rote
memorization, but I would think this would only be exacerbated in a Chinese
institution.

~~~
hootbootscoot
I hear you, but I think that there is a significant portion of the "modern"
university system (particularly larger schools or systems) that is merely
paying lip-service to these values, particularly at the undergrad level.

I had the good fortune of small class sizes and being able to debate
professors. (Appeal to authority didn't count lol) I think that some school
even prioritize what you mention: St Johns school of the great books (not sure
if this is the name) in Santa Fe, for example, makes you learn ancient Greek
and Latin. When you learn Geometry, you read Euclid in Latin and argue about
his books for weeks on end... It's the opposite of the superficiality the
author mentions. There are costs to this, however, and they spend less focal
time on the 20th century, when, arguably, many important events and works
occurred.

~~~
hootbootscoot
Sorry, I meant "read Euclid in Greek" not Latin. doh.

------
president
Written by someone who travels to another country with a closed mind and then
complains that life there is not like home.

------
hootbootscoot
Talk about someone projecting their own experiences as universal truths for
everyone, LOL

...and then trying to use Heidegger as an excuse for intellectual laziness is
pretty silly too. The more languages you know, the more you really understand
the true meaning of words in your "own" language. (Certainly with Latinic
languages and English, for example.)

There's also a point to be crossed at which you can dream in another language
and there's a bit of a desert to be crossed before that happens.

Overall, it was a challenging and somewhat thought-provoking read, but I feel
that

1) the author approached the subject superficially and in a flippant manner

2) the author is young and has much to learn about LIFE on earth, whether it
be China, or any of the other 180 something "countries" we have divided our
planets human societies into.

That said: I've noted that large nationalistic nations (China, the USA,
Brasil, Russia...) tend to know less about the outside world and navel-gaze
more, whereas smaller nations with many different neighbors (most of the
world) tend to be aware of the cultural framing on almost any issue, even if
they defer to local customs or beliefs. This is obviously a gross
generalization, but a flavor one nevertheless is imparted with due to:

1) A tendency towards being linguistically bound in thought. (I will propose
that the author here is dead wrong, Martin Heidegger notwithstanding, and that
languages bound thought possibilities by their grammars and biases)

2) A tendency to not have experienced any foreign nationals in rural areas, or
certainly none that are deemed to be equal human beings by a significant part
of the local society.

3) A tendency to believe the local media and governmental narratives at the
cost of being completely un-aware of other narratives, regardless of belief or
resistance to such narratives.

~~~
hootbootscoot
I wonder if the author would have enjoyed a different school or town/region
instead. We might simply be addressing culture shock, jet-lag, and a lame
school, lol

