
Total Cost of Her Covid-19 Treatment: $34,927.43 - JeanMarcS
https://time.com/5806312/coronavirus-treatment-cost/
======
alexhutcheson
The face values on medical bills in the US are like a bizarre joke - to a
first approximation, no one ever pays them. Everyone with insurance gets
insurer-negotiated "discounts" to around ~10% of the listed cost.

It's tougher for people without insurance - my understanding is that you can
negotiate with the entity that sent you the bill to get significant
reductions, but I don't have first-hand experience doing this. Even so, it
sounds exhausting, since a single doctors visit will often result in bills
from 2-3 separate entities (doctor, lab, radiologist, etc.), so you'd have to
negotiate with each of them individually.

~~~
Havoc
>Everyone with insurance gets insurer-negotiated "discounts" to around ~10% of
the listed cost.

That whole setup is downright cruel & evil. Pretty much guarantees the most
vulnerable get fk'd.

~~~
afterburner
But won't you be so proud when you sign up for a health plan! You can exclaim
to everyone "well I did my due diligence and I signed up for a great plan! why
didn't you??"

Meanwhile people in non-US countries are thinking "I don't have to think about
any of this shit, at all."

~~~
jjoonathan
... and half the time people bragging about the spectacular insurance they
found have just fallen for one of those "fake insurance" scams that are now
legal again. Sure, you get $1,000,000 per year of coverage -- with a per-
incident cap of $1000 buried in the fine print.

And even though fake insurance is cheaper than real insurance in this country,
it's not cheaper than real insurance in most single-payer countries, which is
just nuts.

------
Krokku
You could buy 0.018 Tomahawk missiles for that or treat 54 people for every
Tomahawk missile fired.

All of the Tomahawk missiles fired since 2001 would have provided 119.000
people with free Corona treatment.

I am thinking that countries with free healthcare care more about keeping
their own people healthy than dropping missiles and misery on other countries
people.

~~~
tc313
While your point is valid, it also illustrates how the U.S. subsidizes
European entitlement programs by implicitly reducing those countries’ defense
spending. If the U.S. were to cut back on defense, European countries would
have to cut back on social welfare programs.

~~~
tpetry
Are you trying to say europeans have money to spend on an almost fair medical
system because they are spending far less money on military because the USA
spends enough to „protect“ the europeans? Because that would sounds like a
joke. Europe is spending less money in military because its not entering so
many wars or conflicts.

~~~
leftyted
The 30,000 US troops stationed in Germany and the existence of NATO are
significant factors in European countries spending so little on defense.

~~~
GordonS
This is a total fallacy - those troops being stationed in Germany does not
mean Germany would station 30k of their own should the US troops leave.

~~~
leftyted
I didn't say that. I said that, without the US presence in Germany and without
NATO, Germany would have to spend more on defense.

I don't understand how anyone can disagree with that; it's obvious. The German
government certainly knows it, which is they allow the Americans to keep
30,000 troops in their country.

A lot of people on HN have an extreme anti-US bias. It's pretty tiring.

~~~
GordonS
My comment didn't display any anti-US sentiment, so your strawman falls down.

> I don't understand how anyone can disagree with that; it's obvious

No, it's _far_ from obvious.

Those troops are now there to serve US interests, not German ones, primarily
using Germany as a logistics base for deployments/missions in the Middle East.

Indeed, there's an argument to made that their spend could even reduce, since
they might become less of a target.

~~~
leftyted
It's obvious to people without extreme anti-American bias.

Also, maybe don't throw out terms like "strawman" when you bizarrely
transfigured my innocuous comment:

> The 30,000 US troops stationed in Germany and the existence of NATO are
> significant factors in European countries spending so little on defense.

into:

> This is a total fallacy - those troops being stationed in Germany does not
> mean Germany would station 30k of their own should the US troops leave.

edit - It should be clear to anyone reasonable that the way you interpreted my
original post evinces anti-American bias. What you don't seem to understand is
that US interests and Germany interests have significant overlap. The idea
that Germany doesn't benefit from pax Americana is absurd.

That doesn't mean that the US always uses its power responsibility, it just
means that things are more complicated than the caricature of US foreign
policy that often shows up on this website.

~~~
amalter
I believe that your position was strong during the cold war. From the end of
WWII until the dissolution of the Soviet Union, American troops and bombs were
a significant deterrent to Soviet imperialism in Europe.

However, the world has significantly changed since December 1991. I agree with
the grandparent that today the primary usage of the large US bases in Germany
are for staging people and material to the middle east. I also think that it's
a reasonable opinion that these wars (or their scale and length) were
unnecessary. Is that opinion evidence of "anti-american bias"? I believe that
is an unreasonable conclusion.

So - from the 50's to the 90's did the US "subsidize" European economies to
some amount by providing common defense from the USSR? Sure. It also served US
interests as the policy was to "fight over there" instead of in the US.

Since then, the US has spent upwards of $3T on the GWOT, while declining in
every health statistic year over year.

If we're tossing around charges of "anti-american'ism" \- I counter than
anyone who wants to continue on with an unchanged healthcare system is "anti-
american" \- as in literally in favor of a system that causes more children to
die at birth, for people to live shorter, less predictable and more brutal
lives.

------
moosey
After this is over, the saddest possible outcome is if America returns to the
same systems, having learned nothing. I don't expect it at all, but I've been
more surprised in the past.

~~~
krapp
Unless there are millions of deaths in the US from this, a return to the
status quo seems like the most likely scenario, as people will assume the
scope and danger of the pandemic was overblown by the media all along.

~~~
zamalek
Things would stay the same even with millions of deaths. "Socialism is nothing
more than communism" and "communism is evil" are two concepts that are deeply
embedded here.

~~~
beamatronic
Embedded in certain geographic and demographic sectors. Always remember the
Republicans have a demographic problem that cannot be overcome long term.

------
JohnTHaller
I can't wait until my $5,000 a year insurance with a $7,000 deductible here in
the US comes up with a reason why it shouldn't be covered.

Fun Related Fact: I donated a kidney to my Dad in 2000. The Affordable Care
Act is what finally made it so it was no longer a "pre-existing condition"
that insurance companies could use to deny me coverage for anything semi-
related to kidneys.

------
BooneJS
IMO, this current crisis exposes a very strange dichotomy: government is
essentially shutting down parts of the economy over shelter-in-place orders,
but when people lose their jobs and (for some) employer health care, the
government doesn’t deal with the repercussions.

Look, I think shelter in place is a great idea for humans. But this is a case
of doing the right thing for the masses hurts the individual. Sad times.

------
lawn
The amazing thing to me is she didn't get any advanced treatment. She didn't
even had to spend the night there.

------
onetimemanytime
"Treatment" I guess but if she was hooked to ICU machines it could have
reached $1 million in no time.

------
xyst
It’s a shame that the only candidate that wants to tear down this ridiculous
health system is getting the boot by the party he is aligned with.

The health system in the US is only accessible to those with money. It doesn’t
have to be this way. I am not saying socialized healthcare will cure all
ailments, but it would definitely be better than the current privatized
system.

------
sumofi
Not having health insurance is not an excuse.

In Germany you are required by law to have it.

~~~
tetromino_
In Germany, does your health insurance cost >$600 per month for 1 person if
your employer or government doesn't subsidize it (for example, if you are
self-employed and earning more than minimum wage from it)?

Because that's the case in the US.

~~~
t0mas88
Similar to Germany here: Insurance costs around € 100 per month per adult,
kids under 18 are free. If you have a low income (below roughly 40k per year)
you effectively pay less all the way down to zero (if your income is below
about 14k per year), because the government pays part of your premium for you.

~~~
Faark
> 100€/month/adult

God I wish, it's about double that [0]: 162€ (health insurance) + 32€
(statutory nursing care insurance) for those making ~1k€/month or less. Not
counting any gov support. Btw ~870€ seems to be the max, if you earn
~4700€/month or more.

And from what I remember there is a way to opt out of the public system and
switch to private insurance, but this is kind of discouraged by being hard to
switch back and requiring significant income in the first place.

> (german) [https://www.tk.de/techniker/leistungen-und-
> mitgliedschaft/in...](https://www.tk.de/techniker/leistungen-und-
> mitgliedschaft/informationen-versicherte/veraenderung-berufliche-
> situation/freiwillige-krankenversicherung-tk/haeufige-fragen-zu-beitraegen-
> fuer-freiwillig-versicherte/beitragshoehe-freiwillig-versichert-nicht-
> erwerbstaetig-2006970)

------
dangus
The bill is crazy, but this person won’t have to pay a 10th if it if they call
the billing department.

Being uninsured is actually something of a blessing in the United States in
this situation. If you have health insurance (often with bad coverage and high
deductibles), you’ve agreed to waive your ability to negotiate and to pay
whatever bill they’ve sent you.

Not so for the uninsured.

The whole billing system in the United States is beyond fucked up.

~~~
xiphias2
To me this sounds like buying fake watches on the street in Thailand.

We both know that the price is to be negotiated, it's just a joke price.

But healthcare is not a joke even there.

