
Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions - jseliger
http://www.wsj.com/articles/construction-unions-stymie-low-income-housing-plans-in-california-new-york-1472376601
======
twblalock
Unions shot themselves in the foot here. Some of the new construction projects
would have been run by union shops. Now, they won't happen at all. Net result:
fewer union jobs than there could have been.

At some point, the unions will need to realize that stuff is going to get done
with or without them. They can be part of the process, or not. If they are
part of the process, they get some jobs out of it. This should have been a no-
brainer.

~~~
themartorana
Also, support for unions is waning. Here in Philadelphia, union support is at
an all time low. They were rendered toothless in recent elections for the
first time ever, and a series of bad press (arson, assault, and destruction of
property by union members) and continued ties to organized crime have worn
thin sympathies.

I also imagine that in difficult economies like ours, the "right" to a job or
work over someone else is not looked at favorably when so many are un/under-
employed.

At this point, unions seem to be the only ones around here that still support
unions around here.

~~~
jseliger
_Also, support for unions is waning. Here in Philadelphia, union support is at
an all time low. They were rendered toothless in recent elections for the
first time ever, and a series of bad press (arson, assault, and destruction of
property by union members) and continued ties to organized crime have worn
thin sympathies._

For good reason. They prevent accountability among police:
[http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/14/police-unions-produce-
rule...](http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/14/police-unions-produce-rules-that-
protect).

They also prevent educational innovation: [https://www.amazon.com/Special-
Interest-Teachers-Americas-Sc...](https://www.amazon.com/Special-Interest-
Teachers-Americas-Schools/dp/0815721293) and pr event urban schools from even
functioning.

As the topic article points out, construction unions are attacking the housing
supply.

Should it be a surprise that anyone who pays attention is unhappy with unions?

~~~
toomuchtodo
Maybe its because the public looks down upon unions that the middle class is
slowly sliding into destitution? [1] [2]

I'm definitely not a fan of unions, but besides the movement to push minimum
wage up to $15/hr across the country, I don't see any organized groups
continuing to push the salary threshold at which overtime pay is required,
reducing the number of hours in a work week (which is f___ing insane we're
still working ~40 hours a week with how much productivity has grown since the
60's), and so forth.

Either unions or political activists must fight for these labor protections;
pick your poison.

[1] [http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/the-american-
middl...](http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/the-american-middle-class-
is-losing-ground/)

[2] [http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2015/12/09/459087477/...](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2015/12/09/459087477/the-tipping-point-most-americans-no-longer-are-
middle-class)

~~~
techdragon
The 40 hour work week isn't a productivity related number... It's a cultural
construction born from early 20th century union political efforts.

For instance in Denmark, the work week is typically 32 hours and has been this
way for decades... Works fine for them... Not sure how well it would work in a
culture like America where working as hard as possible is considered a good
thing... Regardless of how stupidly obvious it is that this screws up work
life balance, individual stress levels and by extension individual health, in
the country with the most fucked up health care system in the western world...

~~~
ptaipale
37, not 32.

[http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/compara...](http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/comparative-
information/national-contributions/denmark/working-time-in-the-european-union-
denmark)

There are particularly many part-time workers in Denmark, and flexibility of
labour market is high (including close to zero protection from layoffs), and
this has resulted in Danes working fewer hours per worker than other Western
nations (1490 hours per year per employee on the average) but on the other
hand the labour marker participation rate is very high, so Danes work more
hours per capita than any Western nation.

~~~
kspaans
When I interned for the Federal Government in Canada my wages were for 37.5
hours per week (7.5 hours per day, 30 min unpaid lunch was the implied
structure).

~~~
ptaipale
It's the same 37.5 hours with all office jobs where I live, Finland. Blue-
collar jobs are 8 hours per day (1 hour unpaid lunch implied), they then
accumulate more holiday days so that the annual working time is roughly the
same.

------
bradleyjg
I don't know anything about the California controversy and I certainly don't
think union workers should mandated on new construction in NYC, but I was glad
that tax deal died in Albany. It was a terrible program.

Under it billions of dollars of tax revenue over decades which otherwise would
have been owed by extremely wealthy people often on their third or fourth home
was forgiven and in exchange a few hundred affordable apartments in some of
the most expensive neighborhood were handed out to lucky lottery winners. It
was about the least efficient affordable housing program imaginable.

A much much better idea would have been to collect the full owed property
taxes on the new buildings for billionaires going up in Manhattan and use the
money to do more good for many more people. Mostly in the outer boros where
the dollar goes further.

~~~
GarrisonPrime
It would depend on how well that money was managed. If history is any guide, I
suspect not well.

~~~
dpark
It's hard for me to imagine the government being simultaneously too
incompetent to spend tax money sensibly but competent enough to direct an
effective lottery based affordable housing program.

If you suppose that the government can't spend taxes wisely, then you
seemingly must also suppose that any alternative affordable housing program
would be run into the ground by the same incompetents.

------
gameofdrones
This one instance might be so (unions are imperfect human endeavors), but this
article comes across as thinly-veiled MSM/establishment strawman/false
equivocation via the pernicious, irrational, data-free worldview which
completely ignores the net positive force unions had in the bloody struggle
for worker pay and working conditions in the 19th and 20th centuries.

See also: "Inequality for All" and "Where to Invade Next?"

~~~
hueving
"helped in the past" != "helpful now"

Burning coal has been a tremendous help to society, but that doesn't mean we
should continue to do it when we find better alternatives for each of its use
cases.

Can you name some of the advancements unions have brought to employees in the
US over the last 10-20 years? Does that outweigh their anti competitive nature
that has led to companies moving manufacturing out of unionized areas
entirely?

~~~
icantdrive55
Off the top of my head, try being a non-union Electrician, Plumber, etc. in
San Francisco for a day.

At the end of that day, you will drop to your knees, and thank god for those
lefty unions. At the end of a few years, you just might be able to afford a
house.

Actually San Francisco has a lot of union jobs, and they arn't moving to
China.

Personally, I think people in tech will look back, and wish they had some
Union protection. It's the one profession I'm shocked hasen't completely moved
overseas.

What's the better alternative? America is better now because got rid of a lot
of unions? Yes--a lot of products are made where your boss can get maximum
ROI. They are made overseas for a lot of reasons, including lax laws
concerning every aspect of that widget. Employee health/happiness/economic
viability--who cares. Enviornment--who cares. Ability to pay taxes--who cares.
Who cares as long as it's cheaper. Sometimes the cheapest is not the best for
society as a whole?

~~~
bogomipz
As far as the union jobs you described, its not actually possible to outsource
manual on-site performed labor to overseas. Is that really an accomplishment
of unions?

~~~
tunap
Very possible to import immigrants, illegally or through visas, to labor for
below market rates.

~~~
ctlby
If they're willing to labor for those rates, they are "market" by definition.

------
joe_the_user
_" In California last week, legislators and interest groups declared dead a
measure pushed by Gov. Jerry Brown to allow certain apartments with some low-
income units to sidestep the state’s environmental review process. "_

It sounds like unions objected to using "low income housing" as an excuse to
"sidestep the state’s environmental review process." I would also.

Environmental review shouldn't be an excuse to engage in NIMYBism but
environmental review is important to prevent projects that are environmentally
destructive.

It sounds like every interest group involved here is using "low incoming
housing" to ram through the "reforms" they're after.

~~~
twblalock
That's a mischaracterization. The law Jerry Brown proposed dealt with "as-of-
right" zoning, i.e. if a parcel of land has been zoned for housing, and
someone wants to build housing on it, they can do so without the NIMBY
neighbors holding up the project indefinitely with frivolous lawsuits and
"environmental" reviews. Unfortunately, Brown attached a low-income housing
restriction onto it, but it was definitely a step in the right direction.

Real environmental review, by qualified people, happens when the land is zoned
in the first place. Most "environmental review" lawsuits are not about the
environment at all. The real environmental experts already had their say, or
else the land wouldn't have been zoned. Most of these lawsuits seek a new
review, often for bullshit reasons, and are filed by NIMBYs to bully the
developers into giving up on developing the land by piling on years and
millions of dollars of litigation. If that fails, they fall back on "quality
of life" and noise complaints.

~~~
sologoub
That's not how it works, especially in hot markets. Zoning is not absolute and
the current process allows for all kinds of variances and exceptions.

The Pen Factory project is an excellent example. Local NIMBYs defeated a
really neat project that even included low income housing. The original
developer said "screw it" and sold the property to a developer that is now
doing a by the books and within exact letter of zoning project that will
result in a lot of office space and no mitigations for extra traffic or
anything. No reviews will stop it.

The environmental reviews cannot be used as an effective NIMBY weapon is the
developer is using original zoning. Instead, most project I have seen in LA
push boundaries for profitability, often resulting in legal fights with
locals.

Source: [http://urbanize.la/post/construction-underway-santa-
monicas-...](http://urbanize.la/post/construction-underway-santa-monicas-pen-
factory)

~~~
twblalock
In the San Francisco area, new environmental reviews can, and have been, used
as an effective weapon against development.

The point of Jerry Brown's law was to make zoning absolute, and to bypass
variances and exceptions which generally accomplish nothing except to allow
NIMBYs to bring frivolous lawsuits.

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cpncrunch
Impossible to read without subscribing. Incognito doesnt work. Clicking on
google search link doesnt work.

~~~
wmil
Clicking the Google search link is working for me. Did you install some
privacy proxy that may be screwing with referrer headers?

Or is there some new requirement they're checking?

~~~
desdiv
The Google search link fails around 20% of the time for me, without any
browser/plugin/config changes on my side. So it could be just that WSJ is
randomizing things.

~~~
cpncrunch
Yes. The exact same search that went to the paywall earlier now displays the
full article.

------
atemerev
If they continue to be uncooperative, just show them this:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnTQMzDvTgc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnTQMzDvTgc)

I'd suggest this will improve our (i.e. demand-side) negotiation chances.

