
Shopify Goes Digital by Default - sachitgupta
https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1263483496087064579
======
cletus
So I've now been WFH for 2 months and honestly I hate it. Work was already
flexible enough such that if you wanted to WFH you could. By convention,
people would most often WFH on Wednesdays. I liked this timing of people doing
it at the same time.

But communication and collaboration is just much harder work remote and you
can't change my mind. I'm sure you can work hard to make it almost as good but
it's never going to be better (IMHO).

I of course miss the meals and snacks.

Many people who work at these companies live in big cities where they don't
have huge amounts of space and it's not conducive to being productivity,
particularly if you live with other people, if you can't get some form of
separation.

Those of you who are claiming this will be some form of revolution I think are
naive. I've found that advocates of WFH are mostly motivated by that's what
they want to do more than anything else. I mean that's fine but it often leads
to thinly-veiled, self-serving, biased arguments and proclamations of the
benefits to everyone.

If you need an office anyway you don't really save anything by WFH unless you
oversubscribe your work areas (eg hot-desking) and that has its own problems.

All-remote might work best. I've seen this claimed but have no direct
experience with it. I do know that mixed WFH and in the office is nearly
always detrimental to the remote people and the team as a whole (IME).

I just don't think a company with 50,000+ employees can operate this way
indefinitely.

~~~
kjakm
>> I of course miss the meals and snacks.

I'm not trying to be facetious - you seriously can't provide your own meals
and snacks working from home?

>> Many people who work at these companies live in big cities where they don't
have huge amounts of space and it's not conducive to being productivity,
particularly if you live with other people, if you can't get some form of
separation.

Do you live in that space because it's close to your office? Ok, so now you're
remote you can live anywhere. If there was no pandemic you could work from a
library, or café or dozens of other places. You could move around each day. Or
you could move to a cheaper location and have a nice home office.

~~~
cletus
> I'm not trying to be facetious - you seriously can't provide your own meals
> and snacks working from home?

Of course I can but I just don't want to. This isn't about being cheap or lazy
(although I'm guilty of both to varying degrees). The biggest benefit of
having a catered office is the lack of having to make a decision about what to
eat. I'll just eat what they're serving that day.

I'm a big believer in decision fatigue [1]. Don't make me make decisions about
things I don't care about and what I have for lunch is one of those. For years
I worked in offices where I either had to bring in my own lunch (never gonna
happen) or I had to go out and buy it. I'm fine with the cost of it. I'm not
fine with choosing where to go and what to order when I get there. I'll end up
finding something I like and just getting it every day until I get sick of it
because that's let cognitive load than having something different every day.

That's why I like a catered office.

> Or you could move to a cheaper location and have a nice home office.

I live in NYC because I want to live in NYC. I chose the job because it's in
NYC where I wanted to live. On a side note, I think this is the fundamental
difference with the Bay Area. hardly anyone wants to live in the Bay Area.
They want to work for [Google|FB|Apple|...] and to do that they need to live
in the Bay Area. Most other places people have decided they want to live there
and then look for work options.

So yeah, I could buy a big house Georgia but... why would I want to?

[1]: [https://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/magazine/do-you-suffer-
fr...](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/magazine/do-you-suffer-from-
decision-fatigue.html)

~~~
newfeatureok
So you don’t want remote first to become popular because you’re not capable of
making decisions and want the company to make them for you?

~~~
pb7
Take it easy. He brings up a valid point about decision fatigue and the reason
why these perks became popular. It's not that people making $100,000s can't
make these decisions or that they can't afford paying for lunch -- it's just
an extra thing that they don't have to worry about when working in a
centralized location. I think it's a weak argument for preventing remote work
but it is a valid one.

~~~
sokoloff
Agreed and will further observe that cletus isn't even trying to _prevent_
remote work. At _most_ they're saying that it's not something they're
interested in doing permanently.

------
rglullis
Is it going to be a thing on HN now where the top thread for every
announcement of a company embracing Remote Work will be from someone
complaining about not liking Work-From-Home and 50+ replies discussing about
"WFH vs office" or discussing their own personal preferences? I am starting to
be astonished by the amount of supposedly-intelligent people who are
completely missing the forest for the trees.

What we are witnessing might be a historical shift as big as Nixon re-opening
with China, and the top comment is really complaining about some missing
perks? How about start thinking of how many people who live in these big tech
centers only because of their jobs and how many will just leave these cities
once it is become accepted practice to work at a Canadian company while you
live in the Caribbean? Or maybe start thinking that people who used to
complain about H1B workers bringing the salary down now having to face
competition from some random guy in Romania who can code circles around you
and can accept a job at one quarter of your salary? Or how about we discuss
the opportunities for startups that will come from this?

Also, start thinking if you are a VC and soon you will actually have to leave
Sand Hill because no one will be crazy enough to move there to sleep on
someone else's dishwasher hoping to make it big.

Personally, every announcement from an established company that is moving to a
Remote-First (or Digital by Default, call it whatever you like) mentality is
_thrilling_. Is anyone from Shopify here reading HN? I was already planning to
apply for them but this announcement made me even more interested.

~~~
matthewfelgate
Yup I get frustrated at this too. Tectonic changes taking places but there is
always 1 dickhead going "I don't like working from home" that seems to
dominate the discussion.

I have a funny feeling the people that don't like working from home are the
same dickheads in the office that everyone else hates working with.

~~~
satysin
I do not agree with the name calling but I do agree with your feeling the
majority of people who want to return to the office are the same who cause a
lot of disruptions.

Where my wife works there are two types of people who want to return to the
office; the old school "we only trust you if we can see your butt in a seat"
and those who need the social aspect of the office.

The first group I couldn't care less about. I hate the attitude that I am good
enough to be employed but clearly not mature enough to be able to work without
being monitored.

The second group are more interesting. Personally I mostly dislike the social
aspect of the office. Sure it is fine during lunch but I _hate_ the
interruptions at my desk either directly (i.e. someone walking over to ask a
question when an IM would be far better) or indirectly such as the
conversations of others.

My hope moving forward is that working from home won't be seen as something
"special" the few are "rewarded" with for a day or two a month but that it is
a choice for each person without prejudice.

For those that want/need an office fine let them go in. But for those of us
who function better working from home we can do that.

It doesn't have to be a binary option for companies moving forward of "our
company is only work from home" but instead a mixture.

------
newfeatureok
Remote-first is the future. I'm not sure why anyone would be against it. No
one is forcing you to work from home. From a compliance and operations
perspective a remote-first company is effectively forced to do a lot of things
many companies do not or will not undertake:

\- Make meetings accessible to everyone

\- Communicate more effectively and transparently internal to the organization
(and even externally, for the adventurous types)

The main "downsides" of working from home (which is not necessarily remote-
first) - not seeing your colleagues in person, life <-> work separation, etc.
will be a new industry that will end up resolving itself. I've seen office
space costs. It would be cheaper to fly literally every employee out once a
quarter and throw a giant party than to maintain an office space sized for the
same amount of people by an order of magnitude in a large, popular city (NYC
office space is approximately ~$100/sqft/month - a desk sized for two
monitors, a keyboard and writing space is about 2 x 4 minimum, so 8sqft, or
$800/month just for a single person in a nice space)

In other words, being forced to do anything - whether that was working from
home or from an office - is an oppressive activity. Remote-first simply gives
back that freedom of choice. Companies can maintain more minimalist offices
for those who insist, and coworking spaces will grow for those who don't like
the office and want separation, and finally those who have the space in their
homes can work from home.

I'd be curious to hear a good argument against all organizations that can be
remote-first being remote-first.

~~~
benrbray
(I posted this in another thread, but it's also relevant here)

As a new grad, I'm terrified of a transition where WFH is the default. I
recognize that I still have a lot to learn, and that I can't do it all on my
own. Casual interactions with coworkers and the ability to passively absorb
new information in the workplace are essential for entry-level employees like
me. Plus, personally, I find the social aspect of work to be crucial to my
mental well-being. I feel a stronger sense of purpose when I can see that the
people around me are all invested in the same project I'm working on.

~~~
newfeatureok
I would argue that absorbing new information would be much easier in a remote-
first environment (such meandering conversations would be available for
everyone to see, not just the participants of a given conversation). The rest
of what you said is not unique to new-grads in any way. Also, a remote-first
company could still have an office - albeit reduced. If all your friends were
at remote-first companies wouldn't you have a better time working in a
coworking space with your friends?

In any case, remote-first doesn't mean WFH-only in any case, so you could just
go into the office, no?

~~~
curiousllama
New grads, almost by definition, have absorbed whatever they can from reading,
the internet, and education; what they need is attention. How to interact in a
professional environment; the details of the company, industry and role; the
office politics... all are "unknown unknowns" to a new grad. I learned about
them from mentorship, 1:1 conversations, and by reading the body language of
people around me. It would've been a LOT harder to do that over Zoom...

(That said, anyone smart enough to be concerned about it is also probably
smart enough to seek out what they don't know so I'm sure the author of the
parent comment will be fine.)

~~~
newfeatureok
I don't understand why all of that can't be conducted over the internet. I
mean, we're having this conversation over the internet, right?

Plus, again remote first does not mandate working from home. One could still
go into the office so the qualms are moot.

~~~
benrbray
One big issue is that more experienced employees will be the ones to choose
work-from-home as their default, while the newer employees seeking to learn
the ropes will opt to come to the office.

Perhaps a solution is to somehow formalize some of these implicit knowledge
transfer mechanisms in the workplace. Explicitly assign mentors to new
employees, etc.. But I just don't see how it could possibly compare to a
normal working environment if I have to do it all from home.

Some other complications:

> A lot of the benefit of in-person work is asymmetric (I benefit more from
> casual conversations with my manager than he does).

> I learn a lot by observing my coworkers interact. Remote work makes this
> very difficult, because it's not really possible to "overhear" workplace
> conversations, or to casually drop in on water-cooler chat. It's also not
> really possible to have brief side conversations in a team-wide zoom call,
> which is one valuable aspect of in-person communication.

> New grads tend to live in small apartments rather than a house in the
> suburbs with a spacious home office. I started my first full-time job
> remotely this week and I'm working from my dining table. Since school is
> out, I can hear my upstairs neighbors' children playing throughout most of
> the work day.

~~~
Apocryphon
> Since school is out, I can hear my upstairs neighbors' children playing
> throughout most of the work day.

How is an open office any better?

~~~
benrbray
For one, I can ask my coworkers to keep the noise down and they will politely
oblige. Offices have pros and cons. My stance is that the pros outweigh the
cons enough that we shouldn't eliminate offices entirely.

I can be, and am, pro-office but anti-open-office. I would much prefer an open
office to 100%-remote work.

~~~
Apocryphon
I understand that stance, but the current trend in tech companies, at least in
the Bay Area, has been almost exclusively open offices. Saves money for mgmt.
and so forth. Perhaps with WFH or at least mixed-WFH policies, with fewer
people in the office there could be more available space so that there can be
more individual offices?

At any rate, I brought it up because the fix for both noisy neighbors at home
or in an open office is the same pat answer: get noise-cancellation
headphones.

------
GhostVII
I really hope this doesn't become a bigger trend. Shopify was a company I was
seriously considering working at in the future, but this would probably
disqualify them. Working from home once a week sounds great to me, but doing
it full time would drive me insane. Virtual meetings are awful for me, and you
miss out on so much of the discussion that happens outside of the meeting - I
think most of the important discussions I have with people are informal,
either walking to or from meetings or just sitting in the office and talking
for a few minutes. Communicating over video is also a lot harder for me since
you miss out on a lot of the nonverbal cues that come across a lot better (and
with lower latency) in person.

Outside of just being harder to communicate virtually, I really need the
change of scenery and social interaction that comes with an office. Sure you
can get that by joining different social groups outside of work, but that
requires lots of intentional effort, and I actually enjoy hanging out at work
and going to lunch with my coworkers. And the office has lots of perks like
snacks and meals which can't be easily replicated at home (I mean I don't mind
cooking, but I get much better lunches at work than the sandwich I would make
for myself). I can't think of a working situation much better than going to an
office where I have all of the food I need, a properly set up workstation, and
coworkers I am able to talk to in person and go to lunch/dinner/social
activities with. To me that is far better than sitting in my home alone all
day (and I don't even have kids, which would be a whole other set of
distractions).

~~~
strig
I really couldn't disagree more. While I understand the desire to work with
your coworkers in person, the benefits of working from home are huge for me.

No commuting, which on its own is reason enough for WFH since it's such a
massive waste of time. Commuting would add an extra 10 hours to my workweek,
and I don't get paid for it. Add in things like control over your own
workspace, no "open office" nonsense, access to your own kitchen/bathroom,
together all outweighs the benefits of working from the office.

The ideal situation for me would be WFH by default, with the option to work
from an office if you want to or for specific situations.

~~~
peruvian
Commuting is the big time saver, but you can also do chores you'd relegate to
the weekend or after work while WFH. Not always of course, but chores like a
quick grocery trip, laundry, cleaning, errands in your immediate neighborhood
no longer crowd your weekend.

~~~
julianeon
Lol, found the guy who doesn't have kids.

I don't want this to come across as overly harsh. But a helpful rule of thumb
to understand what life is like after having kids, is: there is no free time.
None! It's like being in the military, where you wake up at 6am, shower until
6:30am, do calisthenics until 9:30am... and so on, with every single hour
occupied, until bedtime, promptly at 9:00pm.

If you tell a person like that 'just watch a movie during your free time,'
they'll look at you blankly and say, 'I don't have free time, not on my
schedule.'

Why are things so different? Because not only do you have another person(s)
making messes who do like 0% of the cleanup, they require much more care than
adults. So free time trends to 0%. There's no 'weekend' in the sense of no
work (there's always housework), in a sense there's no 'after work.' There's
only work, as far as the eye can see.

So for example, with commuting, I don't have enough time to do housecleaning,
so the house stays in a permanent state of ugly messiness. Without it, I can
apply that time to cleaning, so it becomes only moderately, to slightly,
messy. There's no big block of free time - nowhere - where I can do stuff to
bring back the time that's lost by commuting.

~~~
nucleardog
Can you clarify what exactly it is you're disagreeing with him about?

From my read, he's saying "no commute is good because you can do a few chores
during the week and not have as many to do on the weekends".

You're saying "no commute is good because you can apply that time to cleaning
and the house is cleaner; but also kids are exhausting".

?

~~~
julianeon
I can clarify the disagreement.

He is saying:

> Commuting is the big time saver, but you can also do chores you'd relegate
> to the weekend or after work while WFH

I am saying:

> If my commute time is removed, some amount of necessary chores cannot get
> done. I can't do chores in any time other than the commute time. There is no
> real 'weekend' or 'after work' time, when I can do them 'later'.

All time is accounted for, and removing time necessarily knocks some items
(like 'morning/midday rooms cleaning') off the list permanently.

~~~
kaishiro
I'm now left even more confused. Are you saying that you do a certain number
of chores _during_ your commute, and that you wouldn't be able to do these
chores if the commute time was removed?

~~~
julianeon
No, sorry.

What I mean is:

There is an hour of my morning and night, 2 hours a day, which I am calling
'commute time.'

I can commute during 'commute time'.

Or I can WFH and stay at home during 'commute time'.

If I don't commute, I can do chores during that time.

If I do commute, those chores are never done, and are permanently knocked off
the to-do list. The house is just that much messier as a result.

I can clean during the weekend, but I would have cleaned during the weekend
anyway.

During the week, the house looks trashed, because there isn't enough time for
chores as it is; the time that is available will instead go to even higher-
priority chores, like washing dishes and clothes.

Basically if 'commute time' goes towards trekking to the office and back, it
comes out of the chore time budget, meaning a really, really messy house
during the week.

I will just point out, in closing: 2 hours a day is a really big amount of
time to subtract out of the time budget. It can't be recovered.

Even if I don't play games and don't do anything 'fun' \- I don't,
incidentally - there's no compensating for that loss.

~~~
jayparth
Just to clarify for you because you're not getting the point:

People are getting confused because your reply is structured like you disagree
with him, because your comment is written like a rebuttal and your tone is
derisive.

However, in your original reply, you're not disagreeing with the above
commenter. You're agreeing with them, and ALSO, you take issue with another
small thing they mentioned, the comment about how this person would do the
cleaning on the weekend.

\---------------------------

To your original point I say this- lots of parents have free time. My mother
had hobbies in her free time. My aunt has hobbies has hobbies in her free
time. I'm sorry you don't, but the fact that you don't does not mean much
about young people that do.

------
fourmyle
People are going to change their tune once the paycuts start coming. There is
no reason to pay SF money to someone living in the Midwest. $80k a year is
comfortable most places. I hope remote first people like the suburbs and
country because there is no reason to live in the city with no office.

The real truth though is most people are far less productive remote because it
requires proactive communication and self discipline that just don’t appear
because now you are working remotely.

This is to virtue signal and get out of expensive real estate in Civic Center
SF in Twitter’s case. That area is a zombie apocalypse.

If you are fully remote then anyone in the world can do your job. Supply goes
up prices go down. I bet execs will get paid the same though.

~~~
foobiekr
Right now, there is _zero_ reason for companies not to announce permanent work
from home. It gets them positive attention and makes them part of the buzz.
They are already paying the comp they are paying.

Putting aside the fact that these policies can change on a dime (it's really
"permantnet work from home _for now_"), what's really crazy is that people are
seriously planning to take companies at their word and are considering leaving
the Bay Area and are assuming they are taking their Bay Area comp with them.

Ok, cases:

1\. company does NOT to geo-based adjustment to any current employee, but DOES
use adjusted salaries for new ones (in other words, path-dependent
compensation). Two people, same job, different compensation. This is not that
unusual in other industries but can be a source of serious resentment. Suppose
a bay area employee moves to India..

2\. company uses relocated employees to establish new comp packages for those
geos - this will only go so far. many cases will be employees moving to less
expensive areas.

3\. company sets a "standard" compensation package world-wide that everyone
gets - this is impossible to really execute on, or it will be very low
relative to peer companies.

and so on. Employees who end up in a case 1 situation will find that after
AVERAGE_TENURE they go looking for a new job and end up geo-adjusted. From a
company perspective, this is a no-lose golden handcuffs situation and anyway
the problem resolves itself quickly.

I tend to believe companies will walk this back as soon as covid-19 dies down,
if not right away then as part of executive transitions where someone decides
to "transform the business." But in the end it makes no difference - the long
term trajectory, if it sticks around, is probably case (1) or some blend of
(1) and (2). For developed nation engineers, case (3) is dire, the end of the
career.

~~~
nemetroid
> there is _zero_ reason for companies not to announce permanent work from
> home

This is obviously not true. If my employer announced permanent work from home,
I would immediately start looking for a new job.

~~~
cuddlybacon
My office (small site within a big company) sent out a survey about working
from home.

The majority responded that they didn't want to WFH. There was a question that
had several options for which composition of WFH vs WFO people wanted in the
new normal. Only 25% of people picked an answer where they would WFH more
often than they'd WFO.

------
MattGaiser
I am curious about the sustainability of work from home for truly team-based
work.

I get to develop features independently, so if I am given the spec, I have no
need to speak to anyone for the rest of the day except for a couple messages
with QA. For me, it is great.

But I am essentially a microservice with defined inputs and outputs. For the
people who actually work in teams (rather than me who is part of a team but
works independently), this seems to be a miserable experience.

Anecdotally, while productivity seems to remain at a high level, a lot of that
seems to be enabled by employees working more hours and being always
available.

~~~
alexbanks
The things you're describing don't go away with a remote team. It's not like
going remote means all your employees just never talk to eachother in favor of
working independently. It just means you use technology to solve in-person
problems rather than being in person.

I would argue it's no more miserable, in fact far less, than having to A.)
Commute, B.) Sit in a conference room instead of my own home, C.) Let people
walk over to my desk whenever they want and interrupt me.

~~~
dan_quixote
I think about (and struggle to value) point C often. The disruption can be
very annoying but the knowledge transfer often has a huge multiplier attached
to it. One person's small piece of knowledge can give an entire team major
traction. This model also promotes tribal knowledge and weak
documentation...which is acceptable for a small company, not so much for
larger companies where people are spread out across geographies.

I wonder, is this a proxy for remote teams? Will large companies have an
outsized advantage in this space? Or does the lower overhead favor small
companies?

~~~
alexbanks
I think that it's just a fundamentally different way of thinking. Having a
distributed team means you have to remove the "I'll just walk over and ask"
mentality from everyone involved. You must resist the temptation to use slack
as an alternative to in-person communication. Communication must be frequent,
documented and public - someone else needs to be able to see the decisions you
made.

------
bregma
I'm glad a few companies are being dragged kicking and screaming into the
XXIst century. I have had to turn down attractive job offers because they
wanted me to relocate to do a job that can be done just as effectively -- more
effectively even -- remotely.

I spent 7 years working purely remotely with a globally-distributed all-remote
team for a mostly remote company. I'm not impressed by armchair arguments of
"it won't work" because I've done it and it works great. Nor am I impressed by
the argument of "I don't like it so no one should do it" because I don't like
commuting or working in a rigid office regime so my counter is "I don't like
it so no one should do it" right back.

Also, I spent a year working in the building beside Shopify's head office and
the 1-to-3 hour commute (each way) and downtown parking fees would be a big
incentive for me to choose remote work if I was an employee there. So good on
them.

------
bamazizi
Consider the domino effect of these decisions. With WFH culture rising:
(Disclosure, I'm 100% in favour of WFH and been doing it for past ~5 years)

\- Commute time is reduced to seconds/minutes

\- Driving or taking public transportation plummets

\- Fuel consumption is vastly reduced, taking care of Pollution as well

\- Rush hour peaks flattens. might still have traffic, but it won't be because
of volume of cars. like from accidents or road work

\- Cook/eat at home vs. going out for lunch solo or with colleagues

\- Work from home or sometimes go to nearby cafe, the rise of nearby desk
options

\- Dressing up for work, replaced with pijamas! Who needs a suit or any formal
wear?

\- Suburban expansion, city planning project have to be completely revised.

\- Location becomes irrelevant, housing/rent costs will displace huge amount
of families

\- Office space occupancy plummets and thus impacting commercial real estate.
Might see a plan for retrofitting office buildings into residential properties
which will increase the inventory of homes and reduction of housing costs in
major cities

\- Group meetings and gathering going digital, will also prevent spread of
viruses and general sickness, impacting health care industry and
pharmaceuticals

\- and so many other direct or indirect dominos I haven't mentioned or
considered...

= Conclusion: Savings are huge for both employees and employers but other in-
direct industries will have to reinvent or disappear.

~~~
mokash
On a practical level, I agree, working from home is better in many ways.
However, you can't forget to think about this on a human level. We are social
animals after all. You may not agree but I feel that so much human interaction
is non-verbal and it is very difficult to replicate this very natural form of
communication over video link. Meetings are great but so many great ideas and
initiatives (valuable to your employer or not), friendships, romances and what
have you arise from informal and off-the-cuff discussions that take place in
offices, at the tea point, at lunch, at 4pm when you are mentally dozing off
and the guy next to you starts to talk about how he is remodelling his
kitchen. You miss all of that by working from home. The sponteneity, the
organic and unplanned human interaction that makes life so great. That being
said, I do enjoy working from home but I also like being in the office.
Perhaps a more hybrid solution is the future, rather than working from home
being the exception, or vice versa.

~~~
Apocryphon
> You may not agree but I feel that so much human interaction is non-verbal
> and it is very difficult to replicate this very natural form of
> communication over video link.

Maybe this will be the killer app that VR/AR was waiting for. Not
entertainment, but enterprise.

~~~
disgruntledphd2
I'm hopeful for enterprise VR, but timezones are a harsh mistress.

------
pb7
Square flew under the radar compared to Twitter coverage but it too is on the
same policy as Twitter given Jack is CEO of both. Noteworthy because it has a
similar number of employees, an even larger market cap, and HQ'ed in the same
location.

~~~
jacktli
As Shopify? 35b (SQ) market cap vs 86b market cap (SHOP), SF vs Ottawa HQ,
guess 4000 vs 6500 employees (based on linkedin numbers) is fairly close, but
Square and Shopify are quite different.

~~~
pb7
I was referring to Twitter and Square.

------
benbristow
If I had a really nice detached home with a wife & children then working from
home permanently would be the dream.

I don't. I live in a flat and live by myself. The only physical people I talk
to are cashiers or delivery drivers.

If your life is further on than others or you have a nightmare capital commute
then I can see WFH being the way forward. But personally I like to go to the
office for social interactions and the banter that happens within. Just going
to the shop for lunch with a colleague makes my day. That burger that you all
decide to go for in the pub around the corner and have a cheeky pint
alongside, even better!

This permanent WFH is already making me feel separated and even lonelier than
normal.

~~~
pickle-wizard
Before this job I worked from home for 2 years. When I wanted human
interaction, I could go to a restaurant, the gym, a hockey game, or a friends
house. You can't do any of those things now.

Once things open backup, I think a lot of people find that WFH is a lot less
lonely.

~~~
postalrat
I don't think you will be doing those things 40 additional hours per week when
you are purely WFH.

------
realbarack
Another one. This is a big-and-getting-bigger deal.

I'm keeping track of announcements here:
[https://airtable.com/shrC1mvKjwntaqocO/tbl73UY1jDmReLge7](https://airtable.com/shrC1mvKjwntaqocO/tbl73UY1jDmReLge7)

~~~
dpflan
Thanks for tracking. Maybe commercial real estate will have to become
residential to survive the shift in demand? Economics of a skyscraper vs.
residential are different, but the building still exists (I can see how not
opening could be cheaper, but still, I'd like to ponder this situation.)

~~~
xivzgrev
Whoa there silver. Just because a few tech companies are giving up their space
doesn’t mean commercial office space is doomed. There are still plenty of non-
tech companies and local businesses (like law firms) that I doubt will be
going away.

Tech companies have a huge incentive here - they can now start hiring
engineers at non Bay Area prices. Which, if enough companies do it, means your
salaries are at risk. Nobody cares that it’s expensive to live here, they only
pay because they all insisted on in person offices. By going remote they can
stop paying Bay Area rents and compensation levels.

~~~
Androider
Interestingly the law firm our company uses has converted to permanent remote
only just now. So it's not just tech companies.

I think, once the boss gets a taste of working from home, they too want to
enjoy their fancy homes and spending times with their kids instead of sitting
in traffic all day. And Covid now provides them a generally acceptable way to
push that change through.

------
raiyu
The biggest positive to companies going all digital especially at Spotify's
scale is the cost savings.

The problem with companies that have started in Urban centers is that many of
their employees don't have the "extra" bedroom in their house to be able to
accommodate for this new work from home scenario.

This is especially true in NYC. Where apartments are usually significantly
smaller than anywhere else. And if both adults in the house hold are working
from home, often times one of them ends up in a closet taking zoom calls.

~~~
Malp
Minor nit: Shopify, not Spotify. This mixup happens frequently.

~~~
raiyu
Opppfh my mistake, easier to spell spotify than shopify mentally for some
reason! =]

------
floatingatoll
Tweet content:

 _As of today, Shopify is a digital by default company. We will keep our
offices closed until 2021 so that we can rework them for this new reality. And
after that, most will permanently work remotely. Office centricity is over._

— Tobi Lutke, Shopify CEO

------
dmode
People have commented the impact of this shift on SF/NYC etc, but based on
this announcement the impact on smaller tech hubs will be even more
devastating. Why would you now open a office in a smaller tech hub when you
can hire someone from anywhere ? The impact of this in Canada can be huge

~~~
Majromax
> Why would you now open a office in a smaller tech hub when you can hire
> someone from anywhere ? The impact of this in Canada can be huge

Why not? The wage differential will still apply: why hire someone remotely
from SF when you can hire someone remotely from Ottawa at 70% the wage?

~~~
dmode
Why to open a office anywhere if you can just hire remote ? Why to have a hub
in Vancouver or Raleigh etc when you can hire from anywhere ?

------
testfoobar
How does corporate security handle permanent work-from-home? It seems that
there would be vastly more risks added.

E.g. When Joe Employee walks into the office, we know it is him and what he
does and where he works. At home, Joe Employee might have a friend who looks
over his shoulder at the project launch document he is completing, at the
financials that are being submitted to the CFO.

~~~
kirktrue
For some of the large clients I have, they require (and pay for) an
independent company to come and audit my home office to make sure it meets
their standards. The auditing company was provided with a litany of
requirements from our shared client.

The first time it was a little odd, but it's routine for those companies who
have sensitive IP.

~~~
pmiller2
That's interesting. What are the requirements like?

------
sequoia
Related: September 25, 2019 | [https://torontolife.com/city/inside-shopifys-
new-nine-floor-...](https://torontolife.com/city/inside-shopifys-new-nine-
floor-office-with-plenty-of-craft-beer-and-a-rooftop-terrace/)

> Canada’s tech darling Shopify—the online platform used to sell everything
> online, from wallpaper to roasted almonds—has just moved into their new King
> Portland Centre digs. The quickly growing company (they currently have 700
> employees in Toronto and have committed to doubling that number by 2022) has
> taken over the top nine floors of this 15-storey, Hariri Pontarini–designed
> tower. Shopify will be keeping their Spadina and Wellington office and plan
> to add a third location at the Well once that development is complete. This
> new office at 620 King Street West will house around 450 “Shopifolk,” which
> is what the company calls its employees.

------
rfdearborn
Seems like permanent remote-optional is rapidly becoming the competitive
equilibrium in tech.

As tooling improves, there is some point at which gains from expanded
recruiting pool + real estate savings outweigh coordination/culture costs of
remote. Beyond this it will be irrational to force physical presences (for
many roles, at least) and there'll be no going back.

~~~
650REDHAIR
It will also drive down wages across the board long term.

------
godzillabrennus
Anyone else think these companies will pull a Yahoo and undo this policy after
the pandemic?

~~~
tachyonbeam
It's possible. Lots of people don't like working remotely. They might lose a
lot of valuable employees. I suppose over time they might also attract people
who prefer working from home exclusively, but they would be losing many older
employees with valuable knowledge. One way or another, there's going to be
some kind of pushback. Many people threatening to quit, many actually
quitting.

The cynical part of me thinks this is a way of trying to save costs (of
renting offices) and pass this as some kind of politically correct virtue
signalling. We so care about your well-being and we're so forward looking!

~~~
quaffapint
Will they? In my little view of the world I see younger workers who use the
office for a social atmosphere as the ones who want to go back. Those of us
that are older with older kids/wives seem more content at home. At least
that's what I'm seeing in my current company.

~~~
enobrev
Long before I ever even considered starting a family, I've always preferred
working from home. I very much prefer keeping my social life and my work life
separate. I'm close with a few people in my industry, but only the ones I
really enjoy spending time with, personally.

I also have a great deal of respect for my teammates, some of whom I've worked
with on multiple projects and companies over the past decade. But I'm
especially glad not to complicate our relationships beyond our work together.

------
CyanLite2
It's not just real-estate to consider. You need security guards,
facility/maintenance personnel. Utility costs, including raised flooring for
your in-house networking/data center. Phones for each desks, office furniture.
You need Becky down in Accounting to be the person ordering the office
furniture for new hires. Sally in IT keeps the VoIP phones working in-office.
Bob in Networking runs cables between floors so Marketing can have better WiFi
and uses top of the line Cisco WiFi repeaters. Sam in the Maintenance
department assembles those sweet mesh chairs that Becky orders and also makes
sure the vending machines and break room is stocked full of snacks. Karen, the
contracts vendor just signed a new long-term agreement with a local ISP for
full gigabit fiber connectivity to the office.

In reality, it's probably 3x savings on top of just real-estate.

------
umeshunni
Looks like Facebook is announcing the same:

[https://www.facebook.com/zuck/posts/10111935689155051](https://www.facebook.com/zuck/posts/10111935689155051)
[https://www.facebook.com/zuck/videos/10111936118050541/](https://www.facebook.com/zuck/videos/10111936118050541/)

------
softwaredoug
This feels very much like a shock response, not a choice. I would expect in 5
years a rediscovery of a more office centric culture _:

“Informal whiteboarding saves me so many meetings!” “It’s great to get to know
your coworkers as people!” “Relationships with colleagues actually matter!”

_(Though i can’t see going back to pre covid office centricity)

------
shade
To add some counterpoints to the WFH criticism here, my team's also been
working from home for the last two months and I'd honestly prefer to never go
back to the office.

I have a unique situation since I can't hear well, and everyone being on WFH
has been a huge benefit for me: since everyone's got their own
microphone/camera/etc, they come through clearly enough that my captioning app
can actually understand them well - typically I get captioning as live CART
through a crap conference room phone. Being able to hook my captioning app on
my phone up to my laptop's audio out and jump on a Teams call with just a few
minutes' notice has also been a huge benefit in easily being able to
collaborate with my team and talk through problems.

I'd worked from home before, but never in this kind of remote-first/remote-
only scenario, and now that I've gotten a taste of it I kind of never want to
go back. I understand that other people are more extroverted than I am, and
can hear normally, and it's not an ideal situation for them - but it's been
pretty awesome for me.

------
ideals
> Office centricity is over.

I hope this mindset carries over to other companies who are committing to
allow employees to stay home. There's more to remote working than staying at
home. The whole culture of the company has to embrace it.

------
jwagenet
What is the long term downward pressure on salary and compensation with all
these companies going full remote? It’s true many companies are paying SV
salaries for remote work, but how long will this last when the labor pool
opens up?

------
diogenescynic
So Twitter, Square, Coinbase, and now Shopify. I wonder how many other
companies will allow this and what this shift will lead to. I imagine this
will lead to an exodus out of the Bay Area and possibly to places like Tahoe,
Santa Cruz, Marin, and a corresponding shift in real estate prices. No real
advantage to living in a tiny apartment in a city if you can't go to concerts,
bars, restaurants, and now can WFH where ever you want.

My question is how companies will handle cost of living differences and if
salaries will be adjusted based on locations? Or can I take my California
salary to Seattle and pay no income taxes?

~~~
NonEUCitizen
Non-compete clauses are illegal (or at least not enforceable) in California,
but they're legal in Washington state. The savings from state income tax (bulk
of your taxes are federal anyway) are not enough to account for the non-
compete clause.

------
_peeley
As a college student just entering the job market, this trend will be an
absolute nightmare if it continues to its natural terminus (all tech companies
permanently and primarily WFH).

My current internship has been WFH for the past ~2 months and it has
drastically reduced how much I actually enjoy my job. Talking with my
coworkers and the office atmosphere in general was a large part of why I
enjoyed my job, and that has been reduced to a daily standup over Zoom and a
handful of strictly work-related Slack messages when necessary. I understand
there are some people who simply like to clock in and clock out but for people
like me for whom the office is a large source of regular socialization,
working from home is incredibly lonely.

It seems as though a large amount of people pushing for WFH situations are
more senior engineers, especially those with children or other concerns at
home. For a moment, just put yourself in the shoes of a junior engineer or
fresh grad who is new to the job or the industry in general and remember your
first day on your first job. Probably the only thing that relieved some of the
stress or anxiety was a friendly coworker, or the ability to grab a mentor to
answer questions sitting just a few feet away. WFH, no matter the technology,
cannot create a substitute for this.

~~~
rglullis
First, please do not confuse "Work-from-Home" with "Remote Work". These are
very different beasts, and the situation you are going through now is neither
of those.

Second, if you can avoid entering the market now, do so. There is a lot of
data showing how entering the job market in an economic downturn can be worse
than a few years of unemployment. You will thank me 25 years from today.

Third, understand that Remote Work (not WFH!) will also allow you to separate
the choice of place of where you live from the place/activity that makes you
money. You don't have to live in a big faceless city. It will be okay to try
spending 3-6 months in different places of the world, meet different people,
find different ways to belong to your local community, whatever. If in the end
you still want to do Remote Work in an environment that resembles a company
office, it will be possible (again: Remote Work is not WFH)

Fourth, if the office is your largest source of regular socialization, I'd
seriously recommend you finding ways to change or mitigate that _regardless_
of your working conditions. As friendly and cordial your relationship with
your colleagues is, they are still just colleagues. You are not in school
anymore.

Lastly, things are changing for everyone, not just the juniors. Even the
seniors will have to figure out some of the new protocols and processes when
dealing with the upcoming challenges. But finding a way to communicate and
exchange some thoughts with your colleagues will always be necessary and
recommended. There is no reason to feel more anxious about it.

------
newfeatureok
Remote-first is the future. I'm not sure why anyone would be against it. No
one is forcing you to work from home. From a compliance and operations
perspective a remote-first company is effectively forced to do a lot of things
many companies do not or will not undertake:

\- Make meetings accessible to everyone

\- Communicate more effectively and transparently internal to the organization
(and even externally, for the adventurous types)

The main "downsides" of working from home (which is not necessarily remote-
first) - not seeing your colleagues in person, life <-> work separation, etc.
will be a new industry that will end up resolving itself. I've seen office
space costs. It would be cheaper to fly literally every employee out once a
quarter and throw a giant party than to maintain an office space sized for the
same amount of people by an order of magnitude in a large, popular city (NYC
office space is approximately ~$100/sqft/month - a desk sized for two
monitors, a keyboard and writing space is about 2 x 4 minimum, so 8sqft, or
$800/month just for a single person in a nice space)

In other words, being _forced_ to do anything - whether that was working from
home or from an office - is an oppressive activity. Remote-first simply gives
back that freedom of choice. Companies can maintain more minimalist offices
for those who insist, and coworking spaces will grow for those who don't like
the office and want separation, and finally those who have the space in their
homes can work from home.

I'd be curious to hear a good argument against all organizations that _can be_
remote-first being remote-first.

~~~
codemac
Have you considered that some humans prefer to meet & work with other humans,
directly, in reality?

------
poxrud
I find this strange as they've just recently opened brand new fancy offices in
Toronto. As I've visited these offices, you could see through the glass
windows of meeting rooms, people brainstorming in groups on whiteboards and
presumably working together on solving interesting problems. I'm not sure if
working from home is conducive to this type of group problem
solving/brainstorming sessions.

------
jaredcwhite
What's surprising isn't that a company like Shopify is going remote-first.

It's that it was ever _not_ remote-first in the first place.

The now-passing era of startups and big tech companies centering their
workforce around physical offices will be looked back on as one of the most
strange and illogical aspects of early 21st-century business!

------
fulldecent2
WFH makes a lot of sense when you have a team of people that are used to
meeting in person and are on the same time zone.

Daily stand-up meetings? Easy.

Weekly team and one-on-one meetings? Easy.

Knowing when your coworkers are working? Easy.

My team is mostly remote, diverse location, diverse ages/demographics. Getting
everyone on Slack was hard enough. Having people report when they are actually
contactable is impossible. And now that Slack removed presence from their API
I have to rely on every more metrics to measure my team.

I should be using many metrics all along? No that's stupid, the reason I have
employees is so I can build relationships with good people. If everything was
metrics and work whenever you want that's called programming, not managing.

------
icpmacdo
In terms of market cap, Shopify must be by far the largest employer to
announce this wfh shift

------
BoysenberryPi
I really enjoy working from home however I have realized that I have become
increasingly unhappy with the communication on my team. Getting answers to
simple yes/no questions takes hours. Someone will ask me a question, I'll
reply within a few seconds asking for clarification and then radio silence for
the next 90 minutes. Personally, I also feel that I'm learning less in some
areas.

This is not a commentary on WFH in general but I think most people who endorse
100% remote work do the type of work where they get their assignment and then
go sit in the corner and bang it out with headphones on and not the type of
work that requires active communication and collaboration.

~~~
obstacle1
If a prerequisite to making progress on your work is getting an answer to a
simple yes/no question within minutes, that's a fundamental problem with how
you're planning your work, not some commentary on the nature of 'active' vs
'passive' jobs.

Expecting instant answers from others is the WFH equivalent to "I love being
able to walk to my coworker's desk and ask them questions!" Sure, because
being able to do that lets you off the hook for needing to break down large
tasks into parallel chunks, plan phases of work in advance, juggle multiple
plates for when you are blocked, etc. It's making your job easier at the
expense of everyone else around you, by basically outsourcing part of your
job.

WFH is a mindset shift.

------
code4tee
Most going this direction are, rightly, treading WFM as people treated travel
reductions. Few are saying you never work face to face for any reason ever...
but it shouldn’t be the default without any reason. For better or worse the
days of just turning up at an office everyday by default are likely over in
many places.

Same with travel. Default should be a Zoom (or similar) but if an in person
meeting or workshop is warranted then do it and just be prepared to justify
the travel cost. Offices are very expensive so rightfully so companies are re-
evaluating how much commercial real estate they truly need to execute their
mission successfully.

------
jjice
I know a lot of people like working from home, and I like the option, but I'm
personally more of a fan of being in the office. I feel more productive and I
like having the ability to talk to my coworkers.

I've seen a lot of people saying that working from home is objectively better,
and I think that that is a bit of a radical claim. I rent a room in a beaten
up house, so I have about 130ft2 of personal space, a shared kitchen, and a
shared bathroom. There are other people like me who also feel like they're
stuck in a bubble, especially now that they can't see their friends and
family, or even strangers at a coffee shop.

------
wnzl
Even tho all those companies are shifting to perma WFH, still it's utterly
impossible to be considered if you work from Europe, relocation must happen
anyway. Wondering if this will change at some point as well :)

~~~
disgruntledphd2
Timezones make this hard, rather than anything else.

Have you considered Stripe? They have been hiring remote and have people based
out of Europe.

------
moneywoes
Do these all digital decisions forecast lower developer salaries in the
horizon?

------
dang
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-21/shopify-i...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-21/shopify-
is-joining-twitter-in-permanent-work-from-home-shift) has a bit more
background and a video interview. (via
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23259684](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23259684))

------
throwawaysea
Great news. I am looking forward to a decentralized society, where people can
choose to live where they want to live. Not everything has to happen in San
Francisco or Seattle. Many will cherish the freedom to live near
friends/family elsewhere, or in a different political climate, or with a more
rural lifestyle. For forward thinking companies that lean into remote work, it
will be a huge pull for talent away from companies that may not make this
change.

------
kaishiro
The number of people in this thread seemingly fine with losing 1-2 hours a day
for their entire working life simply _commuting_ is just astonishing to me.

------
skuthus
I wonder how much this situation would have benefited WeWork, and how much the
future of WFH will create opportunities for its successor

------
purple_ferret
>we now have the opportunity to be joined by a whole lot of incredible
individuals from around the world that otherwise couldn’t because of our
previous default to proximity.

Wow, so they'll be hiring non-Canadians by the majority now? Interesting. I
wonder how this will affect the economies of places like Ottawa, with Canada
not having the type of Tech Sector the US does.

~~~
bregma
Well, Canada has a robust tech sector, equivalent to the US but proportional
to population size.

The question is whether Americans can compete in a global marketplace against
the rest of the world who don't expect SV-level compensation and also don't
need US-level private health insurance. I'm trying but failing to see the
value proposition to hiring American outside of the USA.

------
hylaride
They currently have a MASSIVE office lease for a building under construction
in Toronto right now. This will be interesting...

------
tinyhouse
This is huge because Shopify is a big company and will likely get much bigger
in the next few years. Most fully remote companies are small. We cannot know
for sure if it will stick. I remember Yahoo telling their employees to return
to the office. But looks like this time it's going to be different.

------
realbarack
I'm tracking remote work announcements:
[https://airtable.com/shrC1mvKjwntaqocO/tbl73UY1jDmReLge7](https://airtable.com/shrC1mvKjwntaqocO/tbl73UY1jDmReLge7)

I expect lots of announcements from 5k to 10k-person companies over the next
few weeks.

------
clivestaples
Sometimes I wonder how long "permanent" will be for these decisions. Off
topic, but if the permanent work-from-home trend continues, I cannot imagine
what is going to happen to commercial real estate. Convert to residential? Is
this equilibrium needed for overheated housing markets?

~~~
djohnston
That's an interesting point, I would guess they'd have no choice but to switch
to condos or flats.

But then if everyone is working anywhere why on earth would you live in SF.

And why would companies hire in SF if they can pick up comparable talent at a
fractional price from Romania.

Lots of questions!

~~~
pb7
If the glaring problems with SF were fixed, this is still one of the best
places in the world to live quality-of-life wise. Weather, accessibility to
some of the best nature in the world, great food, entertainment, etc.

~~~
fourmyle
SF anywhere near Market or Mission is a 3rd world country. I just moved to
Seattle. The QoL difference is striking.

~~~
pb7
Yeah, it sucks. From my few visits to Seattle, it seemed similar in parts but
I haven't spent enough time there to make a confident assertion.

~~~
fourmyle
It might just be the current situation but I have seen maybe 4 homeless in 3
weeks in my day to day and I take a lot of walks. Could just be looking in the
wrong spots but there were literally 20 tents on my block near Bart in the
Mission so its an upgrade.

~~~
pb7
Found this: [https://www.seattle.gov/homelessness/unauthorized-
encampment...](https://www.seattle.gov/homelessness/unauthorized-
encampments/emphasis-map)

I do recall some Seattlites mentioning one specific area that is particularly
bad by name but don't recall that name.

~~~
fourmyle
I think I heard Pioneer Square is bad, just walked there the other day and
it's not anything like SFs bad areas. There could just be better options for
homeless during the shutdown here than SF though. I will reserve full
judgement until things are back open.

People are going to be surprised by the state of the FiDi in SF when things
open back up. Many tents have gone up there with everyone gone and WFH. Going
to be interesting when people go back to the office there.

------
aswanson
Governments should offer tax incentives to companies for work-from-home. It
reduces traffic snarl, pollution, accidents, health issues from sedentary
commutes. Its a public policy and environmental win across the board.

------
dehrmann
It's interesting to see companies do this so soon into the WFH experiment.
There are still lot of open questions around long-term planning,
communication, mental health, and productivity.

------
robertoandred
Will they be paying for their employees' home office setups?

~~~
troydavis
This has been a solved problem for many years. Many or most larger remote-
first employers do. Here's an example from Automattic
([https://automattic.com/work-with-us/](https://automattic.com/work-with-
us/)):

> Home office setup and coworking allowances. Working from a coffee shop? You
> can use your coworking allowance for the requisite latte!

and from [https://javi.blog/2016/01/10/automattic-
perks/](https://javi.blog/2016/01/10/automattic-perks/):

> If you don’t enjoy working from home 100% of the time, the company will give
> you up to $250 per month to rent a coworking space. Also, if you don’t want
> to have a permanent place to attend, you can use that $250 to pay for
> whatever you drink while you’re working from a coffee or similar places.

> You can get a completely equipped home office on the company. For example, I
> got an Aeron chair, an Ikea Bekant standing desk & a desktop lamp even
> before my first official day in the Automattic.

------
cmrdporcupine
Smart move from a talent aquisition POV. Had me looking at their postings
right away [but, nothing fit my profile]. I'm sure others here did the same.

------
alexashka
There is a trend among companies that have established themselves as a
monopoly of sorts in a niche and stopped innovating.

They can work 'remotely'. Of course they can - they are hardly doing anything
:)

Twitter, Basecamp, Shopify - what do all these companies have in common? They
don't need to do anything and even if they could, they haven't for so long,
that working in an office or remotely changes nothing. They're in maintenance
mode - you can do maintenance mode from home while cutting staff/costs. Good.

------
anarbadalov
This one is behind a paywall and i'm not a Bloomberg subscriber. Here's a long
article published today at Vox that gets into this:
[https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/5/21/21234242/coronavirus-
co...](https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/5/21/21234242/coronavirus-
covid-19-remote-work-from-home-office-reopening)

"A survey of senior finance leaders by research firm Gartner found that 74
percent of organizations plan to shift some employees to remote work
permanently. Consulting company Global Workplace Analytics estimates that when
the pandemic is over, 30 percent of the entire workforce will work from home
at least a couple times a week. Before the pandemic, that number was in the
low single digits."

This is kind of terrifying. I started working from home a few months before
this mess, and i've found that work-life balance hasn't really improved. Yes,
my day is more flexible — i can spend a few hours in the morning with my kid
and make up lost time in the evening when she's down — but the days stick to
one another, and i'm having trouble disconnecting completely. I used to get
home from the office at 4:30, hang with the kid, get her to bed, and then have
a few hours to either write or go to the gym or hang with my wife. These days,
work is always on my mind to some degree, accompanied by low-level anxiety —
and not just because of this surreal and disorienting pandemic.

~~~
michaelbuckbee
As someone who has worked from home for a decade-plus, don't discount the
surreal and disorienting pandemic.

The past couple of months have been a very different situation than the
"normal".

~~~
anarbadalov
this is encouraging, thanks. yeah, i started working remotely in December and
felt i was just getting used to it.

------
ohsik
wow things are really changing. Is this a good thing or not?

------
ycombonator
Bye bye wework

~~~
tinyhouse
Actually this is good news for rework and other co-working spaces. Many of the
employees of these companies will prefer working from a co-working space,
myself included. Most remote companies are already paying for it.

------
joelbluminator
All I can say is f __* yeah

