
Shen 17 released under BSD license - michaelsbradley
http://www.shenlanguage.org/download_form.html
======
doall
First of all, thank you for changing the license to BSD. This is a really
happy news. Reading all the discussions including Google Group, HN, and Reddit
so far, to deal with the concerns of hga and others, is it possible to just
move the comment part of the licence.pdf to porting.htm? Perhaps the main
motivation of the changes to BSD was to encourage shenturions and potential
shenturions to use Shen at work, and we are almost there. If you do that, then
nobody will claim the licence, and we can move forward. We don't want to see
anymore hatred just because of the licence issue. We want to focus on
developing real applications using Shen at work and see the Land of Shen to
expand. Please consider if you think this is reasonable. Thanks

~~~
hga
You should make this appeal on the Google Group
([https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/qilang](https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/qilang))
although based on the latest discussion
([https://groups.google.com/d/msg/qilang/qGHfX3Iimqk/PBQerwjM2...](https://groups.google.com/d/msg/qilang/qGHfX3Iimqk/PBQerwjM218J))
that would be unlikely to sway the author, might even be highly unwelcome.

------
hga
Nope, it isn't.

Or rather, it now has a 3 clause BSD licence with an additional "Comment on
BSD, GPL and Copyright":
[http://www.shenlanguage.org/license.pdf](http://www.shenlanguage.org/license.pdf)
which is significantly longer than the 3 clauses minus the all caps disclaimer
of warranty boilerplate.

Which might be acceptable, it looks OK at first glance (compared to an
unacceptable initial version presented yesterday), but it does add to the
overhead in doing things with Shen. Fatally? I don't know, but the usual
dismissal that "It's got a weird licence" still holds, even if it has less
weight now.

~~~
kybernetikos
Having donated to what I thought was the BSD licensing of this, I'm pretty
disappointed.

~~~
michaelsbradley
A couple of thoughts (I also donated):

Given that the source files have a license-header which is standard 3-clause
BSD (no extra _Comments_ section), and in light of Dr. Tarver's recent
statements[1] on the mailing list, I think it's clear that the license of Shen
17 is, in fact, 3-clause BSD without any extra terms or conditions.

So what we're looking at is a situation where some of us think that Dr. Tarver
has expressed in a problematic way his misgivings about the GPL and his
understanding of copyright law. Namely, by making the latter an addendum to
the source distribution's _license.pdf_ file, he is or may be causing
confusion about Shen 17's license.

As a remedy, I would suggest we express our concerns on the mailing list in a
constructive manner. Some of us have already done so.

[1]
[https://groups.google.com/d/msg/qilang/WLwJmlxtXSU/BUzjLtdmK...](https://groups.google.com/d/msg/qilang/WLwJmlxtXSU/BUzjLtdmKokJ)

~~~
hga
Unfortunately, per Tarver's last comment on this a couple of hours ago, it
looks like it's "game over" WRT to licencing reform
([https://groups.google.com/d/msg/qilang/pt1nmdcOOVU/1WzrqV5Fd...](https://groups.google.com/d/msg/qilang/pt1nmdcOOVU/1WzrqV5FdEwJ)):

 _Well exactly as promised. I hope people are happy. However now people have
got the power they asked for, it is up to them to make the running with it. My
role is now more of an observer and to maintain the sources and standards and
printed documentation. What people do with Shen, where they take it, is now in
the hands of the Shenturians. This means to a degree that people have to
define and solve their own problems. My path resumes from where I left it when
I returned from the edge of the Himalayas to build Shen._

Side note: no idea why at least two people would down vote all your
contributions to this discussion....

ADDED: Just got back an email from Taver WRT to my refund request, denying the
"it's modified BSD" claim, and a not unreasonable in the context of our
communications, especially since I'd already decided to do it, request to "go
away forever" (well, unless a flourishing Shen community develops within the
next few years).

Perhaps my "with fire and sword" style stuck a nerve; my #1 and calmly stated
point that this negated the whole premise of the campaign was quoted by at
least one other person on the mailing list.

~~~
michaelsbradley
The down votes of my comments are in all likelihood not connected to the
content of this discussion.

In the last couple of months, I made some unpopular comments on HN and since
then have seen all of my comments, no matter the subject, receive a downvote
or two some time during the wee hours (in US timezones). The intent is,
obviously, to discourage my participation on HN in the face of steady karma
loss. I am not discouraged, and in time perhaps my karma-detractors will tire
of their little game.

~~~
michaelsbradley
Changing over your routine (or script) to the time/s of day when I'm active
(or US participants are generally active) is clever... but not that clever ;-)

