

The Ugly Truth About Classic Games. They Are Terrible. - sahillavingia
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2010/09/ugly-truth-about-classic-games-they-are.html

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lmkg
Broadly, there are two types of games that are important enough to remember
years (or decades) later: those that are ground-breaking, and those that are
good. Ones that are only breakthroughs can stay remembered for their
historical significance, even though new iterations improve upon their
formulas and eventually surpass them. Games that are good for reasons beyond
being a technical breakthrough are the ones more likely to describe as
"timeless" or "classic." Ultima VI sounds like an example of the first: quite
a breakthrough in terms of mechanics, interaction, and storytelling at the
time, but surpassed by later innovations. Starcraft (the first) would probably
be the iconic example of the second: everything about that game already
existed (in fact, it was somewhat obsolete on launch for still being 2D), and
there has been tons of innovation in RTSes since then, but it was simply
executed so well that it was not only remembered but actively played for over
a decade.

In practice, many games are both. For example, the original Half-Life was a
breakthrough for FPS games in tightly integrating an engaging story into the
experience. Integrating the story in such a way has become standard fare by
modern FPS standards, but Half-Life remains playable and enjoyable today. The
graphics are dated (and a little painful), but the gameplay is rock-solid, and
the story is still significantly better than 95% of what's on the market, both
in terms of what the story is and how it's told. Deus Ex also ages well. It's
gameplay innovation of putting RPG elements in an FPS game is now quite
standard in FPSes, but the plot makes the game fun to play. Its gameplay
innovation isn't really _obsolete_ yet because there isn't something
significantly better, but it is exceedingly common, and yet Deus Ex remains a
better game than most other games that use it. I strongly suspect Portal will
fall into this category as well--portals are cool, but when I think of Portal
I think of GLaDOS and the Weighted Companion Cube. As a game, it is held up by
way more than just a technical gimmick.

Unrelated: My personal favorite timeless classic is X-COM: UFO Defense (known
as UFO: Enemy Unknown on the other side of the pond), which is apparently
available now on steam, 17 years after its release.

~~~
wazoox
> My personal favorite timeless classic is X-COM: UFO Defense

My, this game is so great. It's actually much better now, because you don't
need to wait for 20 minutes at each turn in the later levels (yes, up to 20
minutes back when I played it on a 386SX 16Mhz with 2MB RAM).

~~~
Natsu
In that vein, you might like the game UFO:Alien Invasion. It's a rather
playable open source clone of X-COM.

Granted, they have a long way to go before they match up to the original and
there are quite a few bugs if you get far enough along to disassemble UFOs,
but I've been having fun playing it.

~~~
wazoox
Interesting, I had given it a try a few years ago but it was really too
unplayable. I'll have a look, thank you.

~~~
Natsu
It has improved a _lot_ with the most recent version. Like I said, most of the
rough edges are a ways into the game. Oh, and I strongly recommend using the
alternate HUB in options, so you can keep track of your soldiers' health more
easily.

It looks like there's code for a lot of cool stuff, but they have yet to
enable most of it in the release version (there are a ton of other alien ships
not yet enabled, for example). Some of their problems may be art-related.

But none of that should stop you from having a bit of fun. And I hope that
some talented folks from here, especially artists, might become contributors.
Because I want to play a polished version of UFO:AI someday.

------
Xurinos
I know it is all a matter of opinion, but as someone who dabbles in game
development (I am an admin of the Dark Mists MUD, after all), here is my
perspective:

If you look across the spectrum of oldstyle games, there are a few aspects off
the top of my head that were responsible for our fun: challenge by control
limits, challenge by time limits, and challenge by perfection (restarts,
saves, etc).

Joust is a perfect example of challenge by control limits. You may accelerate
left and right, you can bounce left and right, you can flap your wings to
ascend or not flap to descend. This game is still fun for me because I
understand and accept those limitations; they are almost the whole point of
Joust. In many ways, Joust AI is predictable, so it is essential that you
master the control. In other words, Joust is a game of skill!

The challenge of time limits is pretty obvious: You have X seconds to complete
the level. In Joust, you have X seconds before eggs turn to soldiers or before
the pterodactyl comes out (and he is killable if you have the skill). Time
limits create stress; you want to beat the time limits. Some people rise to
the challenge of completing things in the shortest time. Often, it is skill
that allows you to surmount the challenge of time.

The challenge of perfection is provided by limiting restarts and save points.
Some oldstyle games had plenty of restarts and saves, but they kept internal
counters of your retries. They would reward you with certain kinds of endings,
based on your retries. In Joust, you have X number of lives before you are
forced to start all the way over from level 1.

Tetris is another great example of an oldstyle game that incorporates all
three of these challenges.

One thing the game industry realized was that they could sell games to more
people if the games required less skill, less challenge. Most games now
practically walk you through them. What you do for fun is different now. Maybe
you play to be an interactive (but aided) participant in a storyline. Maybe
you play to be the first to finish the same progression everyone else can
finish (WoW). Maybe you play because you want to see the latest pretty lights
(aka advances in graphics) or have the stronger system, both of which are less
about gaming and more about presentation.

Is it really that classic games are terrible or less fun than today's games?
or is it more that the kinds of fun you can have with them are different from
the kinds of fun you can have with today's games? As an oldschool gamer
myself, I can tell you that I have gotten bored with some of the past
approaches, but that does not make them suck. It just means that what I want
has changed.

~~~
ajuc
Good observation about different challenges.

Different people like different things. I like games that allows mastery of
complex control scheme, and exercises reflex. It's great feeling, when you
have complete control.

Some games are based on logical thinking, story, strategy, etc - in these
games difficult controls is just distraction, and it makes experience worse.
Control schemes evolved, so older games had worse than new games (also
computers evolved, now it's easier to do good ui than 10 years ago).

For me one of the best games was "Icy Tower" - very simple concept, simple
graphic, no story to speak of. It aged very well.

Doom - the same - the feeling of nicely timed double shotgun shot is very
rewarding, it doesn't matter you are shooting to rectangles.

I've seen in some game design book the distinction between a game and a toy.
Toy is when you are given some cool object to manipulate, and some
constraints, and that's it. Game has rules and objectives, you must solve some
problem.

You can make a game without a toy - when there is no pleasure apart from
solving problems.

You can also make a toy without making a game - it will be boring after a
while, because there will be no objective, no problems to solve.

But great game is when you have cool toy and interesting problem to solve with
it - these games plays great even after years.

~~~
Xurinos
> Doom - the same - the feeling of nicely timed double shotgun shot is very
> rewarding, it doesn't matter you are shooting to rectangles.

I always like how people bring up Doom as opposed to, say, Wolfenstein or one
of the other 3D shooters of the time. What made Doom feel different with the
controls was two subtle things: head bob and acceleration.

In the same vein, there were other side-scrollers that featured characters
jumping around. The side-scrollers that added acceleration physics (Mario,
Metroid) were the really popular ones.

I am trying to consider Castlevania as an exception to my acceleration theory,
particularly the limited jumping movement in Castlevania 1 (similar to 8 Eyes,
which allowed you to have neat two-player coop action but somehow was not as
popular).

------
scott_s
It all depends on what you consider a "classic" game. I can't play NES games
anymore. But I still have fun with SNES games. I keep my SNES around to play
games that I consider classic: Super Mario World, Super Metroid, Castlevania
4, Yoshi's Island, Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 6.

Also, if you like talking and reading about classic games, you should visit:
<http://www.gamespite.net>

------
faragon
I still find enjoyable the following:

Star Force (1984, Tehkan, Arcade game)

Black Tiger (Capcom, 1987, Arcade game (2x Z80), 7 megabit ROM set)

Ninja Kid II (UPL, 1987, Arcade game)

Legend of Hero Tonma (Irem, 1989, Arcade Game)

Parodius Da! - Shinwa kara Owarai e (Konami, 1990, Arcade game)

Super Mario World (Nintendo, 1990, SNES, 4 megabit ROM cartridge)

The Legend of the Mystical Ninja (Konami, 1991, SNES, 8 megabit ROM cartridge)

Super Metroid (Nintendo, 1994, SNES, 24 megabit ROM cartridge)

Super Mario 64 (Nintendo, 1996, N64, 64 megabit ROM cartridge)

Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (1997, Playstation, CD-ROM)

It is possible to play it in its original form, and also in the PC, using
emulators.

------
bherms
My favorite game of all time was made in 1998... 12 years later I still play
it maybe once a year. Anyone else a big fan of Grim Fandango? I wish they
would resurrect this game, or at least do an update to it like they did with
Monkey Island.

~~~
acabal
I absolutely loved that game, but I lost the disc a long time ago :(

~~~
bherms
Me too, but I found a torrent for it. I then later found it in a software bin
somewhere for like $4.99 a few years ago and bought it a second time.

------
wazoox
By this metric "Citizen Kane" is dull, Beethoven's symphonies sound tired, and
Phidias statues are so déjà vu. BTW did you read the Odyssey? Ha, they don't
even have rail guns, stupid Achaeans!

I still love playing PacMan, etc. Actually I can't stand modern games at all
out of the "casual" ones, because they're just too demanding, and I have no
time to spend for this. I don't need any special involvement to play PacMan,
Activision Enduro, or Intellivision AD&D. They're fun, anyway.

------
zephyrfalcon
Yes, many classic games are terrible by today's standards. Even those of us
who are old enough to have played these games when they came out, and who
thoroughly enjoyed them, now consider them unplayable (or close to it), simply
because many games have come out since that are better in every possible way
(graphics, sound, playability, UI, ...). All in all, it's just a matter of
expectations, and how they change over time.

Which makes me wonder, will today's games be considered unplayable 20 years
from now? You'll explain to your (grand)child how revolutionary the Wii was
when it came out, and they will just look at you funny, and throw away the
controller in disgust after five minutes of playing on it?

~~~
sahillavingia
I think we are on a path to reach an asymptote, so changes won't be as drastic
(though that may just be narrow-mindedness).

~~~
hugh3
Think about movies. The earliest movies were terrible; just technology
demonstrations, but they wowed audiences at the time. By the 1920s you were
starting to get some films which are still worth watching today as films
rather than as historical curiosities (Metropolis, The General). By the 1940s,
truly great films were being produced (Citizen Kane, Casablanca) and many
would argue it's been basically a plateau ever since then... a few truly great
films and a large number of quite good ones produced every decade since.

------
aspir
Donkey Kong (arcade version) is still the only game that, in my opinion serves
as a true metric of core gaming skills (tenacity, patience, hand-eye, etc)

New games won't ever come close to that era in regards to sheer difficulty

~~~
evo_9
Yeah, that is one of the hardest games ever made. Probably why the high-score
is still contested. Side note - Billy Mitchell just lost the title back to his
_Kind of Kong_ rival Steve Wiebe.

Excellent film too - for those who missed it:
<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0923752/>

I'd place Robotron: 2084 (arcade) in that same category - seriously one of the
hardest games ever made, mostly due to the dual control requiring a fair
amount of ambidextrous skills.

------
evo_9
M.U.L.E.

Seriously, one of EA's first game releases from the early/mid 80's and I still
play it on an atari800 emu.

Hell, Star Raiders and even Archon/ArhonII are pretty incredible still from
that era.

~~~
hkuo
Even better when you have friends with the same M.U.L.E nostalgia to play
with. My favorite was monopolizing the market on food to make all the other
players starve and pay me crap tons of money just to eat.

------
flatulent1
The original Crystal Quest of the mid to late 80's on monochrome Macs and the
early color version on the Mac II were great (but not MultiFinder compatible).
Very addictive and fast/smooth which was a feat on the 8 and 16 MHz machines
of the era. (Not to be confused with later rewrite which just wasn't the same)

Just the other day I was wondering about getting an old version of the OS
running under SheepShaver to try it. I'll probably dust off an old machine
instead.

~~~
DerekL
There are also recent versions for iOS, Xbox 360 and Windows.

------
jhuckestein
I can't believe nobody mentioned nethack!

It's the most well-designed game I have seen to date.

~~~
Natsu
Yeah, but is it new or old? It's still under development...

Granted, it hasn't changed much in forever. Now if you'll excuse me, I have
some scrolls to price-ID and I'm not sure if that creature over there respects
the E-word...

------
bherms
I think a lot of the classic games are classics because they're universal and
appeal to human natures desire to solve puzzles and best challenges. Games
like Tetris will never get old because they're simple, easy to pick up, but
you can always outdo yourself. Most games now cost $50-$60, last 5-10 hrs, and
then you're done (generalizing here). I think that's way worse than classic
games that I'm still playing 15 years later.

------
TrevorJ
All creative endeavors must be judged inside a historical context. The movie
"Citizen Kane" is terrible in terms of production value when compared to
today, but in the historical context it was an amazing work of art that set
the framework for many other movies to follow.

------
danilocampos
Timeless classic games:

\- Super Mario 3

\- Super Mario World

\- Mega Man X

\- Baldur's Gate

Still 100% fun. Dunno how they manage it.

~~~
jsrfded
I got my apple 2 out of storage, and my 11 year old son got addicted to Apple
Galaxian. Was one of my favorite games, I thought it was interesting that even
though he played modern xbox and wii games he could get so wrapped up in a
game that old. Comes down to solid game mechanics and playability I guess.

~~~
rograndom
I got my 9 yo hooked on Lemonade Stand through a Apple 2 emulator.

------
tokipin
one thing to recognize is that modern games generally have a lot of high-cost
content. this is stuff that teams of 100+ people have to work on for 2+ years
to make. so in that sense it would be really surprising if modern games
_didn't_ appear substantially better to us than in the past, when teams were
tiny by comparison

~~~
iron_ball
Excellent point. I remember it was a huge deal that Wing Commander 4 cost $14
million to make (mostly because it included a great deal of live-action video,
the fad of the day). Now that's peanuts for a AAA title.

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AndyKelley
I'm not tired of 2D side scrollers. I was so happy with the New Super Mario
Brothers Wii. A trend I've noticed is that games who want to be modern but
also 2D, simply render sprites in 3D but keep the game play 2D. (kirby 64
crystal shards, super smash brothers). It's great to see 2D gameplay is not
dead.

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wccrawford
I tried to play Wolfenstein 3D the other day... No strafe. :(

It would still be a great game if it only had strafe.

------
forinti
I still have a lot of fun with Thrust, Repton and Blockout, all of which have
crappy graphics.

------
jonhendry
The Infocom games are just as good as ever. And the graphics are still top-
notch.

------
9ec4c12949a4f3
My friends on steam started to comment about how many times they see the popup
that I'm playing X-COM: UFO defense, so I had to stop.

