
Square UK Launches - wonderous
https://squareup.com/gb
======
samwillis
I'm not convinced by their card reader at all...

It would be trivial for people to intercept the PIN number when it is entered
on the seller's phone. That's why competitor devices (iZettle, PayPal) all
have a keypad and screen on the card reader itself, it lowers the possibility
of interception of the PIN number.

In fact, I am fairly sure that I read in the past that the credit card
companies wouldn't allow this type of implementation.

I would certainly feel very uncomfortable entering my PIN number into
someone's phone.

\--

EDIT:

So, from what I can tell the design of the PIN entry keypad for EMV is
governed by ISO 9564[1], which states:

    
    
      "The PIN entry device shall be physically secured so that it is not feasible to modify its operation or extract PINs or encryption keys from it."
    

I don't believe that entering a PIN into a phone based keypad is compliant
with that.

1:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9564](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9564)

~~~
objclxt
I don't see any indication on their website or marketing materials that they
are accepting the PIN. I would be surprised if they did, because EMVCo have
been firm in the past that a dedicated keypad is required.

I would be interested to know whether they're either capping the amount that
can be charged, or are taking some of the liability themselves.

Square will also be looking to get as many people on contactless as possible,
because with Apple Pay / Android Pay you can exceed the usual capped limit in
the UK (I believe it's something like £30 with a regular contactless card
before PIN entry is required).

~~~
homero
They do clearly show a pin screen on their site though but it might just be
the marketing dept

------
edent
A few interesting things about this.

1) Amex the same price as other cards. Amex has low penetration among small
retailers in the UK because they traditionally cost a lot more to accept.

2) Square are _very_ up-front with costs. All the major banks hide their costs
- requiring you to call their sales weasels to get a quote.

3) The card reader cost is the same as PayPal - but Squares costs are fixed @
1.75%. Paypal's are 1.5%-2.75%. The same applies with iZettle - there's a
variable cost which is quite opaque for small businesses.

Essentially, if you don't want to jump through hoops and worry about getting
screwed over by small print, it looks like Square is compelling.

~~~
ropiku
> variable cost which is quite opaque

I'm not a user but I see that iZettle has an up-front calculator to tell you
what your % fee will be. It reaches 1.75% at £6200 which I believe means it's
cheaper for most shops.

------
henryaj
Talk about being late to the game... iZettle has been around since 2011[a]!

[a] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IZettle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IZettle)

~~~
nailer
Surprised they didn't just buy iZettle, who own both the market and the
mindshare for these types of devices in Europe.

~~~
wonderous
iZettle raises $63M more at a $500M valuation; company has raised about $235
million in funding to date.

Guessing they've had offers, but not good enough to make them sell and they're
still able to raise capital.

Square's market cap is currently $6.51B and here's there balance sheet:
[https://markets.ft.com/data/equities/tearsheet/financials?s=...](https://markets.ft.com/data/equities/tearsheet/financials?s=SQ3:BER&subview=BalanceSheet)

------
ktamura
I was in London a few months ago. I have Android Pay (I'm American) and could
use it everywhere [1]. Coffee shops, train stations, supermarkets, even a
whole in a wall cafe. Unlike in US, payment simply was not a problem/point of
friction at all.

I am really curious what was the thinking behind Square's UK launch (if there
was). At least as a business traveler (and admittedly in London, the financial
center of Europe), I saw no space in the market for Square to enter.

[1] (The ONLY place I could not use Android Pay was Apple Store)

~~~
jdietrich
The established nature of the market may be a mixed bag for Square. There is
strong competition, but there's also a very large market. Square don't have to
convince anyone of the merits of mobile payment, just offer a better solution
for some portion of the market. They already have lower transaction fees than
Paypal and iZettle for most users; they could gain significant ground by
salami-slicing the market with better features for particular niches.

------
falsedan
> _See deposits in your bank account as soon as the next business day_

That's a bit slow for the UK, most payments settle in 5 minutes with an upper
limit of 2 hours for bank-to-bank transfers…

~~~
markhowe
Bank transfers maybe, but Card processors are rarely that quick - merchant
account's are rarely same day into bank, at least from what I've seen.

~~~
martinald
Yeah I was surprised to see stripe doesn't use faster payments in the UK.

------
Nursie
Cool, more competition in this space is likely good.

I worked on a similar unit at a lower pricepoint back in 2014.

Unfortunately that was for London 'unicorn' Powa, and we all know how that
went...

------
bluetidepro
Somewhat related: I wonder if this launch means they will now work to open up
their (awesome) Square Cash App to other countries, and sending between
countries.

The support says:

> Credit card processing with Square is available in the 50 United States,
> Canada, Japan, and Australia. Payments can only be processed in the country
> in which you activate your account. For example, if you activate your
> account in the United States, you’re not able to process credit card
> payments in Canada, and vice versa.

Hopefully they are working to open up now that they are launching in the UK.

------
GlennS
I was a little curious about the detail of this, since I didn't really know
what Square offers beyond being a 'payments company' (which could mean
anything).

It seems that they're claiming to be cheaper for small businesses. Is that
true? Their per-transaction fee seems pretty high, and their device is about
the same price as a chip and pin reader.

They also have mobile payment support, but surely that's just a gimmick at
this point?

~~~
Nursie
Mobile payment like apple pay and android?

No, it's a growing sector. It also mostly comes for free once you have
contactless in place.

Their offering seems to be more than just a card reader, they bundle a PoS app
too.

Not saying it's the best thing since sliced bread, but it does seem like a
fairly complete package.

edit - can I ask why I got a downvote? Not sure I said anything contentious
there.

~~~
falsedan
Every card in the UK issued in the last few years can be used for contactless
payments, and every sandwich shop has a chip-and-pin handset which can process
them.

I added the one card which doesn't support contactless to my iPhone wallet but
being able to use my debit card is much easier (plus I don't have to worry
about draining its battery).

~~~
Nursie
Not every card, my credit card did not, for whatever reason.

There may be better security through Apple/Android pay, IIRC they don't expose
a real card number, and the phone must be awake (and sometimes unlocked) to
process a payment.

Regardless, it's irrelevant - the processing tech for android/apple pay is the
same as for other contactless cards, so it comes for free - lots of places
supported it without even knowing. That sandwich shop reader already supports
phone payments most likely. I like it - saves me fiddling with my wallet.

~~~
falsedan
My point is, consumers already expect to use their card, not a phone/app; and
for users who do have the necessary hardware, it's still about as convenient
to use their card rather than their phone.

~~~
Nursie
So, some consumers now like to use their phone, I personally find it more
convenient.

As an extra capability that appeals to some folks it's a no-brainer to market
it as a feature.

Sure, it's probably only a few percent at present. Your objection seems to be
"I don't use that, therefore they shouldn't mention it on their page", no?

~~~
falsedan
> _I don 't use that, therefore they shouldn't mention it on their page_

Oops, that's not my intended message at all! I don't care what they say on
their site & I certainly don't expect them to pay attention to the rants of
random HN commentators…

I know people don't use their phone to pay for things here, and I don't
understand why you think it will help Square make any inroads into the UK
market.

~~~
Nursie
I don't understand why people object to it as a marketing selling point - it's
a new(ish) payment method that's expected to become more widespread over time.
Selling your product to a retailer with "Hey, it does this too" can't be a bad
thing?

>> I know people don't use their phone to pay for things here

Where is here?

I've seen folks in London using their phone to pass the Oyster/underground
gates, and I see people at work use their phones every day in the on-site
eatery. When I brandish my phone at the McDonald's drive-through for a coffee,
the staff don't look at me like I'm crazy, they hold out the machine. I'm
really not sure why you think that it's objectionable.

~~~
falsedan
I don't object? You're projecting a complaint onto me that I never made.

I don't understand why you think this feature is important when so many
existing consumers will use their contactless card to make payments instead.

Making it crystal clear:

Why do _YOU_ think this is good? In actual concrete terms, i.e. this allows
contactless payment for purchasing automobiles which is a gamechanger because
…

------
libeclipse
How do they accept pins for chip-and-pin transactions? If it's on the seller's
phone then I wouldn't be comfortable using Square on either side of the
transaction.

~~~
Nursie
Looks like it is on the seller's phone, yup.

Not sure how trustworthy that is, exactly.

\--edit-- You can find their PTS approval here -
[https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/ptsdocs/Contactless_Chi...](https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/ptsdocs/Contactless_Chip_Policies_Procedures-1470841206.8388.pdf)

\--edit 2-- That's the only one with ICC and contactless I can find, but it
talks about USB connections. This surely must be approved for untethered/bt
connections? Hmm

------
artursapek
I wonder why they own square.com but continue to default to squareup.com.

~~~
zellyn
[https://www.quora.com/How-much-did-Square-pay-for-square-
com](https://www.quora.com/How-much-did-Square-pay-for-square-com)

Edited to add disclosure: I work for Square, but I don't know the details of
our agreement with Square Enix, and I don't know what I'd be allowed to say
about it if I did. :-)

~~~
lucideer
> _That Japanese company_

That Japanese company is Square Enix (formerly Square, before the merger with
Enix), makers of the Final Fantasy games. I'd imagine the US Square must have
paid a fairly non-trivial amount for whatever deal was made.

------
jlebrech
do companies squat their names in other countries, or they use the same
international trademark and add extra words if the name is taken?

~~~
NetStrikeForce
Both actually.

E.g. Corona is called Coronita in Spain and Puma used to be Dasslerpuma, too.

~~~
jlebrech
I take it Company names mustn't clash, but trademarks can if they are in
different sectors? (unless is a name made up especially for the product like
CocaCola?)

~~~
Symbiote
Coca cola isn't made up, it's a description. The drink originally contained
coca leaf extract (cocaine) and cola nut extract.

I don't know about the trademarks though.

~~~
jlebrech
oops, that's true :)

what i meant is rich company that can drag you through the courts for 15 years
till you're bankrupt

------
corobo
The cynic in me groans at the ability for chuggers to accept card. The "I only
carry card, sorry" excuse will need revising!

------
rikkipitt
Does Square have RFID chip (read/write) capability?

~~~
MatthewWilkes
Why would this be useful? They support NFC payments, if that's what you're
asking?

~~~
rikkipitt
I'm looking for RFID POS systems and this just popped up, thought it was worth
an ask.

~~~
MatthewWilkes
Like, for operator identification?

