
Sleep Deprivation in NBA Players - sna1l
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27767289/dirty-little-secret-everybody-knows-about
======
jedberg
Every year when I go to re:invent, Amazon's big conference in Las Vegas, I
schedule nap time from 3pm to 5pm. When I'm there I meeting with lots of
different people, from as early as 7am to as late (early?) as 1am, and
sometimes I'm out till 3am or later.

That nap is the only thing that makes it bearable. And I get mocked for it and
I don't care. But sleep is no joke.

I also do all the blue shift/night shift stuff on my phones and laptops year
round, and that seemed to make a big difference when I started doing it. I
went as far as replacing every light I need at night to one that can go as low
as 1850K, so I see no blue light for a few hours before bed.

~~~
bilbo0s
Off topic a bit, but I have a small sony flatscreen tv in the house. The only
one, but the kids use it all the time now.

Does anyone know of a way to "night shift" those things? Kids are trying their
best to get into university, so I get that late studying is necessary. I even
get that some kids prefer to watch some things on the TV. (Youtube/Netflix
documentaries etc.) I've replaced lights, etc. But the TV is still blasting
out blue light at all hours for them. Might be better if I could cut that down
too I'm thinking?

~~~
yeutterg
If your TV doesn't have any specific blue light settings, you can get an
external device like driftTV[0]. Even without a specific blue light reduction
mode, I recommend turning down the brightness to the lowest comfortable
setting.

[0] [https://www.amazon.com/driftTV-Remove-Blue-Your-
Sleep/dp/B01...](https://www.amazon.com/driftTV-Remove-Blue-Your-
Sleep/dp/B01BLWVA36)

~~~
spookthesunset
Holy crap $129 is a bit for that. I’ll wait for all the cheap knock offs to
copy and improve it (eg, a remote).

------
strstr
I’ve always wondered if the home team advantage is mostly caused by sleep
deprivation.

I know baseball stadiums have idiosyncrasies (home run distance varies), but
I’m not aware if anything similar for basketball.

The home team advantage is also pretty striking for win rates in the NBA: 58%
of games are were won by the home team in the 2017-2018 season[0].

[0]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_advantage](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_advantage)

~~~
mcgrath_sh
That is actually relatively low for the NBA. In 87-88, home teams won 67% of
games. Baxter Holmes wrote another piece about two years ago about how Tinder,
better sleep, and less drinking has eroded the home court advantage in the
NBA. It was a great piece.

[https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/presents18969358/tinde...](https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/presents18969358/tinderization-
today-nba)

~~~
tcj_phx
I don't particularly care about the NBA, but I followed your link anyways, and
came across this gem:

> A recent study by WHOOP, a biometric device company with NBA clients, found
> what researchers called a "four-day hangover" in the post-drinking health
> metrics of 148 student-athletes. Heart rates were 16 percent higher after a
> night of drinking, and a measurement of heartbeat interval variation was 23
> percent lower. According to the researchers, the effects are "a change of
> similar magnitude to that of aging 12 years."

Searching for "four day hangover" had this link at the top:
[https://www.whoop.com/the-locker/the-four-day-
hangover/](https://www.whoop.com/the-locker/the-four-day-hangover/)

Searching some more, this page has information about lab tests that provide
evidence of chronic alcohol consumption:
[https://arupconsult.com/content/alcohol-
abuse](https://arupconsult.com/content/alcohol-abuse)

I've observed how it takes some people days to fully recover from their
drinking episodes. Thanks for the link.

~~~
tP5n
You can test this out yourself, if you're into an endurance sport and have a
heart rate monitor nearby. Even low to moderate drinking the night before a
run has a significant effect on my heart rate at rest (around 5%) and during
exercise (up to 10% higher).

Where moderate drinking means a glas of wine, or two, not a bottle (or two).

------
graeme
Could one team gain a massive advantage by taking the sleep environment
seriously and figuring out how to prevent sleep deprivation in players?

A sort of hidden opportunity along the lines of the statistical metrics that
revolutionized baseball.

~~~
rogerkirkness
My thought too. Just don't bother practicing as much, instead sleep more and
throw some games strategically.

~~~
mcgrath_sh
Teams kind of do this already. The Spurs were especially famous for “DNP -
Old” (DNP = Did not play) at the end of the Duncan/Manu/Parker era. They would
leave those guys at home for short road trips and/or back to backs. This all
hit a tipping point when ABC was scheduled to air the Heat v Spurs and the
Spurs left all their stars in San Antonio. IIRC the Spurs won or came close to
doing so anyway. The league has then encouraged teams to sit players for rest
at home (road fans, especially in the opposite conference only get one chance
to see a guy play) and not for nationally televised games, but it is hard to
make that a policy. In addition, due to conference imbalance, it is easier to
rest stars in the East (see Raps and Kawhi last year) than it is in the West.

~~~
pbh101
In addition since then the NBA schedule has expanded by about a week to
reduce/eliminate the number of road games back-to-back-to-back / "4 games in 5
days" scenarios.

------
bluetidepro
> To fight back, he says he hopes to grab a few hours of sleep on the plane to
> Houston. He hopes the hotel bed there is OK, though that's never a
> guarantee.

From what I have seen, most pro teams stay at some of the nicest hotels in
said visiting city. With that said, I'm surprised to see the "He hopes the
hotel bed there is OK, though that's never a guarantee." But maybe that's also
just coming from my own experience of sleeping extra well in higher end hotel
beds than my own bed at home.

~~~
mmmrtl
Consider that a king size bed is only 6'8" long, while the average player's
height is ~6'7"

~~~
jessaustin
The diagonal dimension on such a bed is over 9'. That would accommodate
anyone.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
And leave room for an average height date on either side

source: packing problem expert

~~~
jimmyvalmer
By my calculations, even 7'7 Shaq lying along the diagonal could accommodate a
couple 5'10 supermodels on either side. Fortunately a king-size bed is nearly
square so one of them will get only a little less headroom than the other
(unless she wants to sleep next to his feet).

source: NBA groupie

------
jmccaf
As coping mechanism, the Portland Trailblazers from the NW who travel the most
miles of NBA teams, have tuned pre-game coffee routine :
[https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25667397/the-game-day-
ca...](https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25667397/the-game-day-caffeine-
routine-keeps-portland-trail-blazers-nba-most-well-traveled-team-running)

------
tdcbfdct3
This article is about how "tinderization" has reduced the need for players to
go out and stay out late at night clubs when on the road, and attempts to map
that to a measurable decrease in home field advantage

[https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/presents18969358/tinde...](https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/presents18969358/tinderization-
today-nba)

------
zw123456
I have often wondered if professional sports in an effort to increase profits,
increase the number of games in a season (MLB 162 games, NBA 82, NFL 16) plus
pre-season, training camp etc. I think they may actually be decreasing their
profitability because the quality of play suffers from the grueling schedules,
not only sleep depravation but injuries and etc. Also, there could be a factor
of over saturation; the games seem less special if they are on every day.

It would be interesting if one of the major sports leagues would experiment
with a reduced schedule to test that theory ? Never happen I know.

~~~
dawg-
As a really close follower of the NBA, I can say they have been starting to
show real concern with not wearing out their players, and they have incentive
to take it even further. They haven't decreased the overall number of games,
but they have been working really hard to minimize the number of back-to-back
games, I think every team has had a decrease in back-to-backs each of the last
4 consecutive years. They also lengthened the calendar to more easily avoid
scheduling games on consecutive nights.

A recent trend is "load management" where superstar players like Lebron James,
Kawhi Leonard, and the Warriors, will sit out a large portion of regular-
season games. The thinking is that if their teams are good enough to get to
the playoffs without them playing all 82 games, so why risk an injury to your
$200 million dollar player for a meaningless game instead of saving their
energy for the playoffs?

This makes fans really mad because they pay for tickets to see the star
players. Players I'm sure appreciate that it reduces mileage on their bodies
and lets them stay fresh and avoid injuries.

~~~
zw123456
Right, and now more and more we see teams that to be competitive have to have
3 superstars in order to keep from wearing out 1 or 2 stars.

------
lizknope
I remember some ghosts on Scooby Doo trying to get the Harlem Globetrotters
sleepy to win the game the next day.

------
nodesocket
Seems like MLB (baseball) players have it even worse. 162 games in 6 months
and that’s just the regular season. Games average longer and if extra innings
can go 5+ hours and well past midnight.

~~~
middlechild9
It's also nowhere as physically demanding of a sport as basketball, where
you're in constant movement 30+ minutes a game and during practice.

~~~
loblollyboy
Yeah but try hitting a 100 mph fastball when you're feeling groggy

~~~
MS90
I'd honestly probably do better than I would normally since I wouldn't have
the energy to overthink it lol.

~~~
mrexroad
Disagree [0]

> One study found that MLB players' strike-zone judgment was worse in
> September than in April in 24 of 30 teams. When averaged across all teams,
> strike-zone judgment was significantly worse in September compared with
> April. The statistical model demonstrated strong predictive value through
> the season.

[0]
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130531105506.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130531105506.htm)

------
SREinSF
> "Based on ... about 10,000 empirical scientific studies, the number of
> people who can survive on six hours of sleep or less without showing any
> impairment, rounded to a whole number ... is zero."

This statement made me think about reports of successful people wherein one
supposed factor to their success was ability to "function" on less sleep
(Marissa Mayer 4 hours, Jon Gruden 4 hours, Tom Ford 3 hours)

~~~
PakG1
Until they can't. [https://blogs.wsj.com/cmo/2014/06/23/how-marissa-mayer-
fell-...](https://blogs.wsj.com/cmo/2014/06/23/how-marissa-mayer-fell-asleep-
and-kept-ad-executives-waiting-for-hours/)

~~~
SREinSF
Agree. Not sustainable long term. Often wondered if such reports were
exaggerated as well.

------
lucas_membrane
If this NBA player thing is important, which is the life of about 400 players
who travel for work seldom much over 100 days per year, how many road warrior
consultants and salesmen are in the same trap with the same or worse
consequences?

------
hanniabu
> Studies show five hours of sleep per night over the course of a week lowers
> testosterone levels by an equivalent of 11 years of aging.

Do their testosterone levels recover after going back to a normal sleep
schedule?

~~~
jusben1369
I think the answer is mostly there in the fact they start the season at 88%.
However, I'm sure there are cumulative effects on athletes who play for
multiple seasons

------
mcgrath_sh
Related to this, one of the most interesting podcast episodes I had listened
to was Howard Beck talking to the NBA schedule makers and all the factors they
have to account for when making the schedule. Part of the podcast talks about
rest and how rest is accounted for when scheduling. Well worth a listen.

[https://player.fm/series/the-full-48/nba-scheduling-czars-
to...](https://player.fm/series/the-full-48/nba-scheduling-czars-tom-carelli-
evan-wasch)

~~~
cvhashim
Interesting will check it out.

Also remember listening to JJ Redick's podcast episode which featured Chris
Paul, and they spoke about players not getting enough sleep. Paul mentioned an
example such as a national game on tv being over at 9 or 10 but they might
have another road game the next night, they go to airport get on a plane and
land at 2am. Might not even get any sleep until 4 or 5am due to all the
traveling, the adrenaline, the emotions, the caffeine etc. Now imagine this
over 82 games.

------
sleepophile
I’ve said this on HN before, but I got the eight sleep pod and im loving it.
The companion app legitimately helps me manage sleep deprivation and I’ve had
much higher quality sleep.

As someone who also ankifies everything, I’ve noticed my recall has improved
ever since I started sleeping more each night consistently (coincided with
when I got the Pod).

I’m sure NBA players could benefit from something like this

~~~
Scoundreller
Was really thinking a pod would be something 3D, not another mattress. Not
knocking the technology, but was envisioning a soundproof mini-room.

------
butterfi
If the grueling travel schedule is what really wears them out, I wonder what
my daily 3 hour commute is doing to me.

~~~
lukas099
Are you commuting between time zones and going to work until midnight
sometimes?

~~~
cvhashim
Also exercising for 2 hours then hopping on a jet to get to the next city.

------
jimmyvalmer
Summary (from 4277 words): From a study of 18 players, testosterone levels
fell from 88th percentile among males their age to 32nd percentile by
midseason. Their grueling travel schedule, and not the exertion of on-court
play, was to blame as non-player personnel also experienced similar declines.
Studies show five hours of sleep per night over the course of a week lowers
testosterone levels by an equivalent of 11 years of aging.

Verbosity is an existential threat.

~~~
scott_s
"Verbosity" also encourages empathy. The piece does a good job relaying the
lengths several players go through to achieve the sleep they want. It also
gives a good overview of what their travel schedule actually is. Let's not
pretend that a three sentence summary contains the same amount of information
as a long-form article.

(And to counter the inevitable follow-up: yes, I know many people think there
is too much human-interest, irrelevant personal information in such reporting.
But there's still lots more relevant information.)

~~~
mikelyons
Verbosity risks people never reading it at all.

~~~
dmit
Their loss.

~~~
mikelyons
Don't get me wrong, I don't think we need to oversimplify and dumb down
content, that has massively polluted the information ecology. I am just
pointing out that most people wont take the time to read anything longer than
a couple paragraphs in this particular context.

~~~
dmit
I think we're basically in agreement that it's a great shame when important
information is not reaching the audience it deserves because of how it's
presented. It's a neat parallel to the other thread in this topic about how
the overall product might be improved by reducing the number of games played
in a season.

It seems wild to me when people basically shoot themselves in the foot by
going "tl;dr", but also if you're the author, it's up to you to present your
message in a easily comprehensible form - nobody owes you their time and
attention, it has to be earned.

(FWIW, this site doesn't allow downvoting direct replies to one's posts, so it
wasn't me who downvoted (nor flagged) your sibling comment.)

------
sirmoveon
How is this even news worthy? There's so many things I could think of more
important than the sleep routine of an luxury- accommodated group of athletes,
who by greed decide to play 82 games per season.

I believe it has been suggested to shorten the season but they neglect to do
it because it means less money.

~~~
sleazebreeze
In the interest of obtaining top performance, this does seem news-worthy. You
may wish to examine your biases towards professional athletes that is coloring
your comments.

~~~
sirmoveon
Oh yes. I'm biased sorry. The most important thing in society is how to
accommodate entertainers more for you know, top performance.

Anyways, who the heck is the one pushing this media agenda? I just stumbled
upon the same garbage on reddit [1]. I assume they can bigger and better beds
with the money they will save up from China.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/dhqy00/holmes_tobias_h...](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/dhqy00/holmes_tobias_harris_points_at_his_teammates_even/)

------
kyleblarson
I am a firm believer in the importance of 8+ hours of sleep but I have trouble
feeling sorry for these guys as they are earning obscene 8 figure salaries in
some cases and around a million at a MINIMUM for a player with 1 year of
experience.

~~~
codazoda
I get your point, but to be fair, none of these guys have, "1 year of
experience". They've focused on playing ball most of their lives and did it
very well for several years before anyone decided to pay them. Many athletes
work extremely hard at their craft.

~~~
kyleblarson
So do a lot of computer scientists. Are they making a milly one year out of
school?

~~~
jimmyvalmer
Supply and demand. Look it up.

~~~
arduanika
Yup. We software engineers may be in demand, but it's nothing compared to
China's demand for obedient propagandists who can dribble.

