

YCRFS 6: iPad Applications - pg
http://ycombinator.com/rfs6.html

======
jasonlbaptiste
Steve Jobs wants the computer to be the equivalent of a toaster... which I
think is absolutely awesome for "normal folks". The computer is supposed to
solve problems, not create them. That's why I'm bullish on the iPad. Some type
of black swan event is likely to occur in personal computing. I don't know if
the iPad is "the event" or just a major accelerant, but people are clearly
waking up to the fact that they don't need all this complex shit.

I'm not worried about guys like us. There will always be machines for us
(powerful, complex, etc.). Why? Because if for some magical reason there
wasn't all of a sudden, we're the type that would just make one.

~~~
chrischen
From what I'm getting, it seems the current and future generations of young
people are adapting to computers, not shying away. Sure people who grew up
before PCs may love this type of stuff (because it's more intuitive to them),
but they'll eventually all pass away. Intuition is based on what we know and
are used to, and the current generation is growing up on PCs. That's why I'm
wary that dumbing down computer for "normal folks" is the future.

If the iPad replaces traditional computers, it will only be because using a
touchscreen and virtual keyboard is more practical than a mouse and a physical
keyboard.

Also as a tradeoff to simplifying the experience, the experience is also
weakened. And as users become more savvy, they'll want to try out new stuff.
These things may not be compatible with the iPad platform because of its
closed nature. There are eventually going to be some scenarios where some cool
new thing only works on open platforms like OS X or Windows (or linux).

Also I'd like to add that one of most popular reasons I hear from friends who
don't like mac is that it _dumbs down the experience_. That it's for _people
who don't know how to use computers (like their parents)._ I actually had this
same faulty preconceived notion until I found out programmers usually
preferred os x (and switched).

~~~
dasil003
There are two kinds of people. Those who like to fiddle around with technology
per se, and those who use it as a means to an end. Just because most of your
friends are in the former category doesn't mean most young people are.

 _Also as a tradeoff to simplifying the experience, the experience is also
weakened._

This is a classic geek fallacy. This is the reason smart phones were so
godawfully unusable before the iPhone came out. Ask any designer—removing
things can dramatically improve a user experience because it decreases the
cognitive load.

 _There are eventually going to be some scenarios where some cool new thing
only works on open platforms like OS X or Windows (or linux)._

Definitely. I'm not quite ready to jump on the iPad world-domination bandwagon
just yet. But keep in mind that many cool new things will only work on the
iPad as well, and it remains to be seen how locked down the iPad will remain,
so this isn't a definitive argument by a long shot.

~~~
chrischen
> There are two kinds of people. Those who like to fiddle around with
> technology per se, and those who use it as a means to an end. Just because
> most of your friends are in the former category doesn't mean most young
> people are. I'm not even talking about all my friends. (I'm not even a CS
> major.) I'm talking about pretty much all the people in my high school. And
> all the kids which the media portrays as technically savvier than their
> parents. So unless my high school was somehow unusually technically capable,
> I don't think I've been a victim to selection.

But I do understand what you're saying. Obviously there will be people who
will be more technically savvy than others, but the overall trend will be
towards more new technology in our lives. What seems new and complicated now
will just be pencils and erasers to the next generation. So while I do believe
that technology will become more transparent (more natural), I don't think it
should/will become dumbed down.

> This is a classic geek fallacy. This is the reason smart phones were so
> godawfully unusable before the iPhone came out. Ask any designer—removing
> things can dramatically improve a user experience because it decreases the
> cognitive load.

Yea I'm well aware of that. I don't think good design and power are mutually
exclusive. But I was specifically referring to the general idea that
simplifying things naturally results in less power. The trick is to simplify
it without sacrificing power, in which you'll result with what we call design.
But I think it's important to realize that simplifying without sacrificing
_any_ power is probably impossible. You'll undoubtedly lose some degree of
power. Closing the app platform results in a simplified experience, but we can
all agree it takes some power away from developers too. I probably shouldn't
have used the word "experience." I meant experience to describe the
capabilities of the system.

~~~
jacabado
Your argument is too complex to be sound.

~~~
chrischen
Sorry I have a tendency to complicate my communications.

Not sure exactly which part you thought was complicated, but I'll take a stab
and reexplain this:

good design is about fitting as much power into as intuitive an interface as
possible. Simply removing things does not necessarily mean better design.

It's like getting a car with raw power or good mileage. The trick is in
getting as much of both as you can, but sometimes you may prefer one over the
other.

~~~
jacabado
I was trying to put down your argument against simplicity by poiting your
argument's complexity. Hence the smart-ass downmod, I accept it.

But I still disagree with you, there isn't a simple equilibrium between power
and simplicity. And this is my interpretation of the Apple philosophy, I would
bet I share it with many Mac users, and it's odd to me, not with you.

The simplicity in the experience greatly determines the pleasure you take from
it, and this determines the context where the "power exchange" happens. Your
"power", or the value you get from a product/service is all determined in this
context. Albeit being a techie, and having a special interface with these
machines I can no longer stand more hurdles since I discovered that it hasn't
to be like that.

And it's such a nice discovery to make.

~~~
chrischen
let me first define simplicity. I do not mean it in the sense of lack of
unecessary complexity. That is always a good thing. I mean it in the sense of
removing complexity (any type of complexity).

My argument's not that simplicity is bad. I'm saying that you can't just strip
away things or a single button would always be the best product in the world.

I'm not saying there's an equilibrium between power and simplicity. I'm saying
the trick is in getting as much of both as pasible.

I think it's not ludicrous to say that os x has a simpler user interface but
you have just as much power as windows. The complexity is still there. It's
just well hidden under intuitiveness. But the important thing is that os x
didn't get there simply by having less features. Stripping away things doesn't
always help make it better. Consider a video encoding tool. You could make the
software easier to use by making it a file picker and a encode button. But
this easier is relative to the user. You're definitely sacrifing some power.
But if you hide advanced controls you can simplify th ui but removing often
unused controls while keeping power features like codec selection available.
But it's not just about simplifying by removing any and all features that a
single group finds unecessary. It depends in your users. Ideally, all the
power with all the simplicity.

------
ivankirigin
Someone please make a paper-killer application. I love working with pen & ink
because there are no distractions and the form factor is awesome for free
thinking. I want those thoughts to get permanence. I'd love to be able to jump
into a mini-drawing program as well.

For app makers, I could see the tablet as an extremely fast prototyping tool.
You could draw up a mockup, add some hooks for click through transitions,
maybe some data entry. I could make a full application mock in 10 minutes. I
know, I've done it before on paper, but with clumsy transitions (i.e. now look
over at this other picture).

Also, I've been colaboratively drawing with my 3 year old a lot. We just draw
different parts of a big sheet. I'd love to do this on the go. In fact, I
think this is a whole application class that is growing on the iphone: kids
apps. The difference with the iPad is that they can be collaborative. The
education apps will be awesome.

------
jey

      [O]rdinary people just want something cheap that works.
      And that's how the iPad will seem to them. Many will never
      make a conscious decision to switch. They'll get an iPad as
      well, then find they use their Windows machine less and
      less. When it dies they won't replace it. 
    

Quoted for truth.

~~~
ErrantX
Indeed, I think many tech people forget they are in the vast minority of
computer users.

~~~
portman
I actually think that lately (viz., reactions to the "Facebook Login"
incident) most tech people are forgetting that the vast majority of computer
users are _not_ dummies, but intelligent, educated professionals who use a
computer as a tool to complete their job.

For example: how many people use Microsoft Excel at least once a week? 100
million people? 250 million? It's certainly a large chunk of the computing
public. These are sophisticated users of desktop software, and I can't imagine
they'll be putting down their Windows PCs in favor of iPads.

Lately, HN-types have been suggesting that there are two classes of users: the
sophisticated software engineer, and the unsophisticated masses. This is both
insulting and wrong.

~~~
tfincannon
There is no reason that iPad software won't be as sophisticated as current
desktop applications like Excel. What makes iPad really interesting to me is
that we may be able to invent new ways to interact with software. The iWork
(Numbers) demo in the iPad keynote shows some possibilities directly relevant
to your point about Excel.

[http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/1001q3f8hhr/event/inde...](http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/1001q3f8hhr/event/index.html)
[starts at 1:05:40]

~~~
Zak
_There is no reason that iPad software won't be as sophisticated as current
desktop applications like Excel._

Yes there is. Apple seems pretty intent on keeping their policy of forbidding
interpreters, plug-ins, virtual machines and the like. To really be as
sophisticated as Excel, a program must include a scripting language and
extension mechanism. That's not to say that a spreadsheet without those
features isn't just as useful to most users, but it certainly isn't as
sophisticated.

Apple may, of course ignore the rules it requires third-party developers to
live under when building its own software.

------
voidmain
I think the idea of one company controlling what people may do with computers
is pretty horrible. I hope this doesn't happen, and would rather develop or
invest in something that could make the iPad fail than something complementary
to it.

~~~
tensor
I agree with this, and would like to expand on it a bit. For me personally, I
do not mind that the iPad is "simple" or even single tasking. The problem is
that the software that is run on it is controlled. Worse, it is controlled by
a company who has already demonstrated that they are happy to deny
applications based on money interests or the opinions of their primarily US
market.

Last year they decided joke political apps were "not worth offending their
user base" for and banned them. This year they ban all applications related to
sexuality for the same reason. Web browsers and email clients are banned for
money interests. It goes without saying that apps like itunes are banned.

What is next? Apps related to evolution and science? Any 3rd party apps
related to music? Who knows. Maybe nothing, maybe all those things.

This sets a FAR more dangerous precedent than Microsoft's monopoly on the OS
market. And as this article correctly points out, very few people outside of
IT will care. For them it will be "why isn't there app X, guess IT people are
just boring/uncreative/didn't think of it, oh well."

This level of control is enough for me to buy an alternative product, even if
it may not be quite as good.

~~~
rimantas

      What is next? Apps related to evolution and science?
      Any 3rd party apps related to music? Who knows. Maybe
      nothing, maybe all those things.
    

There is a name for that: FUD. How do you know, maybe Apple will release cure
for cancer as an app. Will they be evil then too?

~~~
Slashed
OK, if Apple will release such an app... let's not start this topic. Instead,
consider this example:

I've built a software that allows publishers to distribute their books on many
devices at once: Kindle, iPad, iPhone, Sony Reader, etc. Do you think Apple
and Amazon will allow me to release such apps for their devices? I doubt it.
The only way left for me is to write it as a webapp. Such control is bad for
free market in general.

~~~
rimantas

      Do you think Apple and Amazon will allow me to releas
      such apps for their devices? I doubt it. The only way
      left for me is to write it as a webapp. Such control is
      bad for free market in general.
    

First you _assume_ Apple won't allow such an app. Then you reason on your
assumption which may have nothing to do with reality. That's exactly what I
call FUD.

BTW, I bought a kindle edition of the book yesterday on Amazon.com and was
reading it on my iPhone with a free kindle app. I assume, that if I had Kindle
too, I'd be able to read said book on both devices. Apple did not care much
where music on you iPod came from — why should they care where do books on
iPhone/iPad come from? The more content available, the more useful the device
is. It is hardware that makes money for Apple, and if something helps to sell
more of it it is good for Apple.

------
mbrubeck
I want a "print to iPad" printer driver.

Just use the "Print" command in any application - Word, OpenOffice, LyX, Dia,
PageMaker, whatever - and choose "my iPad" from the list of printers. Then the
document is wirelessly synced to an iPad app with a simple browsing interface.
Basically like Instapaper, but it could work really well with complex
graphical documents.

Feel free to steal this idea. :)

~~~
bigwill
"Save as PDF..." + Dropbox + Dropbox for iPhone/iPad and you're done :)

~~~
mbrubeck
Yup, and that works okay for me, but I think "print to iPad" would be
appealingly simple not just for me but for lots of less-savvy users. "Print to
Kindle DX" (or other large-screen e-ink reader) would be good too.

------
buster
Haha, i love how everyone is like "uhm, yeah, it will change our future,
appple is so genius, but i don't know why and how, but somehow it must be true
because i say so".

Translates to: Nobody knows, there is no evidence, people are wishing for the
ipad to become the computing device of the future, but dont know how that new
computing future could be different from tomorrow.

But, since apple did a great marketing job, as always, you are not alone.
There are hell of a lot of people who will buy the ipad, but don't exactly
know why. I know a lot of people that want an ipad, but when i ask them what
would be so great about it, what would they do with it, they don't really
know, they just think it's awesome. Which in my oppinion, is a result of good
marketing (and neat design). It looks neat, the whole world is talking about
it, apple is cool, so i need one too!

This discussion is somehow the same, but discussed by geeks: It's cool, it's
easy to use, those dumb other 99% of computer users will need this, but i
don't know why. :)

~~~
freshfunk
Ok. What's your point? Is someone supposed to know?

I think people didn't really have any idea how the iPhone would really have an
impact. At best people said, "Now I don't need to carry a phone and an iPod."
That's probably one of the least touted feature today because it is simply
taken for granted.

The thing with iPhone is that it really removed any threshold to mobile
applications. Sure, I could've probably done everything on my laptop that I do
on my iPhone. But who wants to bust out their laptop every 5 minutes to check
Facebook, find directions and beam someone money using PayPal? Oh yeah.. you'd
also have the barrier of actually having connectivity no matter where you are.

I will say that there will be a similar evolution with the iPad. Certain
applications lends themselves better to a touch interface with a lightweight
form factor. These applications need more screen real estate than an iPhone
but less power than a laptop. The most obvious? A book reader.

I can see any sort of designer app being huge: web page designing, graphic
designing, photo editing. Personally I would love a personal entertainment
console. In a perfect world, I'd have a smooth, user friendly and rich touch
interface to pick a movie to stream from Netflix and have it start playing
automatically through my Apple TV.

------
lr
I completely agree with Paul and the others at Ycombinator. Although my
writeup was specifically about control systems, my point is that this device
is not about eBook reading, so comparing it to the Kindle is a waste of time.

My writeup can be found here: [http://lr.posterous.com/the-ipad-its-about-
control-systems-n...](http://lr.posterous.com/the-ipad-its-about-control-
systems-not-ebook)

~~~
cubicle67
That's an excellent article. I've just submitted it because I think it's
worthy of comment

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1160975>

------
danw
_One particularly interesting subproblem is how to introduce iPads into big
companies._

There's already an app for this, keynote. The iPad is perfect for sales
presentations hooked up to a projector or by passing the tablet around. You
can edit on the go and email the deck. It's easy to slip from presentation to
app demo.

The only thing missing is easy wireless printing from the iPad or iPhone.
Opportunity here?

~~~
briansmith
You could just use a Lenovo X-series tablet that's been around for years, runs
PowerPoint and every other Windows program, has a fold-out full-sized
keyboard, and already connects to existing projectors and printers without
dongles.

~~~
metachor
Lenovo X-series tablet - Starting model price: $1879.00 (currently on sale for
$1399.00).

Apple iPad - Starting model price: $499.00.

I think it does not matter whether the Lenovo tablet is more fully featured.
People will buy the iPad without a second thought, because it is affordable,
and then make it work for this purpose.

Additionally, and I hate to admit this, but the iPad will probably have
greater fashion value to be seen with in a boardroom than the Lenovo tablet.

------
andrewljohnson
We're thinking about building an iPad app, but I am still just a little bit
concerned it won't be nearly as big as the iPhone. It's a big risk for us to
take as a three-person start-up.

We currently develop a GPS/tracking/mapping app for the iPhone, and a bunch of
our users have emailed us to ask us what our plans for the iPad are. The
obvious application would be a trip planning app - something where you could
trace out trails and waypoints on the iPad, and then load that data into your
iPhone or other GPS unit out in the field. You could even take the iPad with
you I guess, considering how light and slim it is.

We're still iffy on doing something like this, but a big part of me wants to,
particularly since I'd use the app for my own trips, and it would be a good
excuse to buy an iPad :)

I guess we'll see. We also see opportunities in boating and aviation, and
we're talking to a boating maps company about a deal that might lead to an
iPad app as well.

~~~
randomtask
What do your users hope are your plans for the iPad?

~~~
andrewljohnson
Some have suggested the trip-planning app.

------
dangrover
I've got an iPhone sheet music reader coming out next week:
<http://www.wonderwarp.com/etude>

I'm rushing to get the iPad version ready too. Don't think I'll apply to YC
though since they hate single founders.

~~~
phlee
We've applied to YC with a music composition application as opposed to a music
reader. We think the iPad is ideal for this domain since the much larger
screen will allow users to take advantage of interfaces like a virtual
keyboard or guitar that you can't really fit in an iPhone's screen.

Best of luck on Etude - it looks great.

~~~
geeko
I hope the iPad will also turn into a music instrument. Something in the
direction of the reactable [1].

[1] <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mgy1S8qymx0>

------
mikecane
>>>We think Apple foresees a future in which the iPad is the default way
people do what they now do with computers (and some other new things).

Yes: Web Designers: Wake Up And Smell The Touchscreen Coffee!
[http://ebooktest.wordpress.com/2010/01/31/web-designers-
wake...](http://ebooktest.wordpress.com/2010/01/31/web-designers-wake-up-and-
smell-the-touchscreen-coffee/)

~~~
quizbiz
What's the equivalent of a rollover effect for touch?

~~~
infolito
TouchUpOutside

Essentially, the user touches an interface element, then slides their finger
off the element to "cancel" the touch.

For most iPhone UI buttons/elements, it doesn't register a button click unless
the the finger touches down on the button then releases up off the same
button.

~~~
phil
Do you mean UIControlEventTouchDragInside/UIControlEventTouchDragOutside?

------
mattmaroon
I'd like to see hardware for it. A docking port that made it accept a real
keyboard might make me want to buy one. A virtual keyboard's fine for browsing
Facebook, but I couldn't do any real work on one without wanting to kill
myself. The ability to type while looking at the screen with nearly flawless
precision is just too good to give up.

~~~
cmelbye
[http://images.apple.com/ipad/specs/images/keyboard_dock_1_20...](http://images.apple.com/ipad/specs/images/keyboard_dock_1_20100127.jpg)

------
dpezely
It may be worth noting that developers don't necessarily need official apps
for everything. That is, github becomes an implicit app store because we can
build locally and push to our own devices.

I suspect this to be the only means by which Emacs will become available on
iPhoneOS, for instance. Considering the intended user base, that's acceptable
as a starting place.

(To preempt certain class of questions: Use the "happy hacker"/"das keyboard"
concept by implementing an unmarked keyboard _underneath_ a partially
transparent background, so you maximize text on screen while also
accommodating typing without external keyboard. For Emacs in particular, just
hit C-l or otherwise scroll when cursor lands beneath fingers. That's one step
closer to YCRFS5...)

------
jasongullickson
I keep hearing that the iPad isn't for coders, but I'm designing a development
tool for it anyhow.

~~~
MaysonL
Me too, and undoubtedly dozens of others.

------
walkon
Software pros and cons aside, in 10-20 years devices with UIs almost
exclusively controlled through touch on their primary display are going to
appear quite comical. The iPad will encourage horrible ergonomics for extended
periods of time which may cause RSS and CTS. Also, I am guessing the iPad will
have the highest percentage of drops (physical falling) per unit for devices
of similar dimensions (e.g. netbooks).

Seriously, how is controlling a semi-portable device by touching its primary
display a good idea for general computing tasks? When considering angles, line
of sight, and ergonomics, this product makes little sense to me, except in
usages that require sparse interaction.

~~~
mikecane
>>>Software pros and cons aside, in 10-20 years devices with UIs almost
exclusively controlled through touch on their primary display are going to
appear quite comical.

Like all these touchscreen cash registers that have been out there for 10-20
years already? Sure, many of them still have bubble/chiclet overlays, but
they're still touch. And all of the input machines for the NY State Lottery
have dropped the keyboard and gone with touchscreen.

For touch to be effective and limit the possibility of RSI, the screen should
be on a gentle slope, not vertical as our current monitors.

------
snom370
I was really surprised when I saw my mother using Safari on her iPhone (which
we gave her for christmas just to have a "simple" phone and iPod, nothing
more). It's not like she can't use a PC, but she rarely does so.

This made me think that an iPad, or a similar super simple tablet is the right
product for her. Appliance is the way to go.

If my parents TV set took 5 minutes to boot up and frequently asked to
download and install the latest security updates before letting them watch TV,
maybe they would do it less often. :)

~~~
orangecat
_If my parents TV set took 5 minutes to boot up_

I hear this a lot, and am always perplexed. Why is anybody actually shutting
down their computers these days? I know Windows didn't sleep reliably many
years ago, but don't they have that working now?

~~~
snom370
People who do the recommended security updates shut down their computers quite
often. And yes, sleep reliability varies a lot with the hardware
(unfortunately).

------
subbu
What are the things iPad might need?

------
dejb
> One particularly interesting subproblem is how to introduce iPads into big
> companies. This will probably have to be done by stealth initially, as
> happened with microcomputers. They'll have to be introduced as something
> individuals use, and which doesn't really count as a computer and thus can't
> be vetoed by the IT department.

It almost sounds like pg is trying to encourage us all to become iPad
evangelists. It kind of feels a bit like a paid promotion to me. I'd
understand the attitude if it was some kind of non-commercial product or an
open standard. But suggesting that we shill this locked down, DRM infested
thing is not what I would expect.

