
Switching from macOS: The Basics - SunShiranui
http://blog.elementary.io/post/152626170946/switching-from-macos-the-basics
======
veidr
My own burning hatred towards Apple runs a little hotter than most, and I have
been seriously googling (and trying) alternatives since 2012.

That was when my $9000 Mac Pro — which had been a great machine, and still
was, except for the little detail about not having been updated since 2009 and
thus being stuck with USB 2 (!!!) to say nothing of Thunderbolt and any kind
of modern accoutrements — started to feel like a personal affront, a sneering
_fuck you_ directed at not just me, but everybody remotely like me. (Wow!!!
_Déjà vu_ bro!!)

Nevertheless, I didn't switch then, and all of us complainers won't switch now
either.

Because _the fucking OS_.

I've tried every iteration of Ubuttnu, CentOS, and FreeBSD since. Even
OpenWhatever, before the goblins bought it. I have Thinkpads and Dell XPS
"Developer Editions" and a drawer full of other crap like that.

Executive summary: it's all garbage time. It's like going back 10+ years.
Nothing works right, on any of them. Copy/paste, batteries, wireless
networking, drag and drop, high-res displays, multilingual input, even like
fucking word processing and email and image editors and terminal programs...
it's all like Mac OS X Jaguar level.

We can't give Apple the finger, even though we want to (and definitely after
last week, we _all_ want to) because there literally isn't an OS in the world
that can touch Mac OS for general-purpose workstation/laptop use. (For niche
and limited-purpose, yes, there are options.)

Elementary OS is a fucking joke. Every OS mentioned disparagingly above is a
better choice for almost any purpose. But those are still horrible.

Apple's OS advantage is what lets them say "Fuck you peons, here's some 3 year
old technology and a bag of dongles, that'll be $4000."

But we're mostly all gonna buy the new shitty MacBook Hipster, or gut it out
with our old ones, until a better fucking _OS_ happens. And that won't be soon
— it's not even remotely on the horizon.

~~~
simula67
I have been a Linux user for a long time ( ArchLinux with Xfce ). Recently, I
switched jobs and my employer issued me with a Mac. I am having the same
problem : _the fucking OS_. Why do I need to press multiple buttons to see how
many applications I have open ? Why does command + tab cycle through every
open application ? Why does it not limit itself to the applications in the
current space ? What are spaces _for_ anyway ? Why does clicking on an already
open application's icon in the dock take me to a random window for the
application ? Is there some logic to it ? Is it random ? I think I understand
why so many people wax on about tiling window managers now, they have never
seen proper window managers. Also why do I have to press Command + whatever
when there is a perfectly functional control key on the keyboard ? If I am
remoted into a Windows machine now I have to remember to press Control +
whatever and revert back to Command + Whatever when I am back on my Mac. Also
don't even get me started on the docker networking issues.

But it would be unfair for me to blame Apple's OS for most of these faults.

~~~
philbot1008
<Command> \+ <Tab> cycles open applications, but <Command> \+ <~> cycles
windows in the current application context

I find this two-dimensional switching incredibly useful for multitasking,
whereas Windows just flattens all windows to the alt-tab list, which quickly
becomes overwhelming if you're a power user who doesn't like to close windows.

~~~
reitanqild
I have to believe you but this exact feature is possibly my biggest issue with
Mac: breaking the stack.

In some of my workflows I jump back and forth between programs a lot. Example
(not everything I do is this tedious : ) Alt + tab, tab, ctrl + shift + end,
ctrl + c, alt + tab, ctrl + v.

When I was on Mac it felt like this would break down multiple times a day: CMD
+ tab, oh wait, another Window of the same App, that means CMD - tab to go
back, then something I have forgotten, possibly CMD + | on my keyboard back
then, then the same insanity next time.

Basically for someone like me who works quick but has lots of things to keep
in mind this breaks down immediately.

I don't want to stop and think if this is another Window or another App, I
just want to go back to that second last thing I worked on.

As I said, I have to believe you guys actually like it but for me this
particular (mis- IMO)feature was one of the main reasons why I will ask nicely
to get a Windows or Linuzx laptop instead of a Mac.

In return I ask that you believe me when I say that I haven't come across one
of those jarring font issues that Mac people complain about in Linux. My
touchpad is good enough, - I try to use my keyboard most of the time anyway
etc etc.

~~~
nihonde
Get Witch: [https://manytricks.com/witch/](https://manytricks.com/witch/)

You should be all set. I've used it for years because I also prefer Windows'
flat window switching.

Also, only $14--less than the price of most dongles. ;)

------
fnl
I try Ubuntu about once a year, in the hopes of getting rid of OSX. But each
time, the reason for going back to Apple ID is __interoperability __: Try
dragging stuff (images, fotos, links, files, formatted text ...) from one
program to another, including the "dreaded" Finder; Works nearly always in
OSX. While Ubuntu has come a long way with these things, I think it's still an
even longer way away from what OSX can do.

So while I haven't tried Elementary, I'd be astonished if it's any better at
interoperability than Ubuntu...

~~~
falcolas
Eh, that functionality has a tendency to break after being used a few times in
OSX.

Specifically, dragging images from your browser to the finder works the first
few times, providing an overlay image which becomes a file icon as you hover
over the finder window. A few transfers later, the file icon stops appearing.
Then the semi-transparent image stops appearing; though the files are still
being copied. Then, silently, the copying starts to fail completely. Not fun.

~~~
bshimmin
Macs have become a lot worse at this sort of thing - weird, intermittent user
interface failures - over the last few years.

Sometimes I can't drag attachments out of emails (which is about the only damn
reason I don't use Mutt for everything) on the first few attempts; I thought
for a while it was because the attachment hadn't completely downloaded, but
no, it doesn't seem to be as predictable as that.

Moving files around in the Finder in general seems problematic, especially
dragging between directories in the list view. This often causes much cursing.

The worst thing about Macs for me now is how much guff pops up entirely
unbidden - messages about not having done any backups in 90 days, messages
about an update which hasn't been able to be completed (but has caused iTerm
to try and quit, which, in itself, causes a dialog to appear that I need to
get rid of), iCloud approval nonsense (which also happens on both of my
iPhones periodically), iTunes Store requests that I may or may not have made
days ago that have failed with an unknown error, etc. The list goes on. I'm
sure all of these things in isolation are very clever and should help improve
my life, but _in toto_ it's immensely frustrating.

~~~
tempodox
I have similar thoughts. I feel the Mac has gone from an environment that was
great for developers and creative people to a kitchen appliance that tries to
micromanage its users. If there were any viable alternative, I might have
switched yesterday (and Windoze doesn't cut it). As it stands, I have to split
up: Linux for development, and Mac for the movies, games and email. Slowly
migrating away might work better than all in one swoop.

------
Void_
I'm really hoping this is just a phase. Hoping that Apple will reduce prices
of new laptops and we'll be back to normal.

Right now everybody is using Macs. Walk into the Bay Area coffee shop, you see
Macs everywhere. I love that.

I build desktop software for Macs (focuslist.co). My apps are prettier than
any others. They are easier and faster to use. This is the reason why people
pay me $5 while they can get the job done with paper and pen.

This is thanks to Mac as a platform. Mac developers don't want to just get the
job done. They want to get the job done while winning an Apple Design Award.
That's why Mac apps are the best.

Take Mac away and high quality desktop apps will go away. We'll have to endure
multi-platform Electron stuff. Ugh.

~~~
pmlnr
> Take Mac away and high quality desktop apps will go away.

Well... no. Ubuntu, Gnome, KDE, XFCE; they are all high quality desktops.
Don't mix the desktop with the applications you're running on it.

> We'll have to endure multi-platform Electron stuff.

Now that is indeed a real issue, and yes, ugh.

Edit: I've misread the original, sorry, so adding a few things: if you're
using the default apps or the ones built for that specific environment only,
you're good to go with GTK3, QT, whatever. The trouble comes when you mix
these, but that is true even for the MacOS. Personally I really dislike the
approach of Chrome, not giving a s* how it _should_ look like to look at least
a little native.

~~~
pjmlp
Not really.

GNU/Linux doesn't have desktop stack capable of matching Objective-C, Swift
frameworks both in feature set and related GUI tooling.

~~~
deadbunny
Because most people using linux on the desktop (thus the development target)
value functionality over aesthetics.

Do I like it when things are pretty? Sure.

Do I need them to be pretty to get shit done? No

~~~
pjmlp
> Because most people using linux on the desktop (thus the development target)
> value functionality over aesthetics.

I know that is what drove me away.

Most just want a window manager for xterms.

Designers get bashed because they don't know what people want.

Performance on GUIs gets bashed, because what matters is doing xterms over
remote X connections.

~~~
deadbunny
> Most just want a window manager for xterms.

 _Glances at 2nd and 3rd monitors_

Well I can't argue there.

~~~
pmlnr
To hell with it, we need a shell which can handle multiple displays and scale
tmux on them! :)

------
kybernetyk
So I went to their main page to download an ISO to give it a try in a VM.

They hid the download button really well: You have to type in "0" into the
"how much you'd like to pay" field for the "Purchase" button to change to
"Download".

I mean I understand that open source projects need funding. But if you want
people to try your niche OS at least make it obvious how to download it. Ask
for money later after people had to chance to try it out.

I only typed in 0 because I know that "trick" from other websites. If I hadn't
known I would have just left the website and would possibly never return.

~~~
xd1936
Everybody in the FOSS community gets really mad at that decision... I thought
it was intuitive.

"How much do you want to pay?"

"0 Dollars."

"Great!"

Why is that so horrible?

~~~
marrs
Don't ever rely on your own perception of what's intuitive to evaluate a user
experience. Someone has given specific feedback to the contrary, which means
that there will be others. If I was the site's maintainer, I'd be heading
straight for the analytics to see if they support this feedback.

~~~
matzipan
The contributions actually increased. Which is why they kept it.

------
FrankBlack
Perhaps I am just dense, but the article references, specifically, the "Pro"
market. For most pros that I know (and I am among them), our OS choice is
often based on our tools, not the other way around. If I need Photoshop,
Lightroom, Logic Pro, Visual Studio, etc., switching will be quite a chore.
For the average user, this is probably a much more appealing argument.

~~~
matzipan
Unfortunately, Linux lacks in the creative market. There's no way this can
change soon without support from big players, like, for example, Adobe.

~~~
wingless
From what I've seen it's been getting much better. Linux has very powerful
tools for media creation/editing now: Blender, Krita, Darktable, Natron are
some quality apps that I'm aware of.

~~~
erikbye
The problem is that they still pale compared to the Windows/Mac applications.

------
kornakiewicz
I'm long term Linux user and I played with Elementary sometime ago. While just
after installation everything is great and beautiful, it changed shortly when
I need to install apps outside the ecosystem. Experience gives you feeling I
could compare to using old-java application on Windows 10.

~~~
matthewking
Along with seemingly everyone else, I had a quick look at my options to
migrate away from Apple over the last few days. First thing I looked for was a
decent mail app, was immediately put off the whole idea, exactly as you
describe.

~~~
etatoby
I recently switched to Mint Cinnamon and I'm completely satisfied. There is
not one thing I miss from Mac OS X and many where GNU/Linux is much better.

As for mail, Thunderbird is not so bad.

~~~
hood_syntax
Mint is much more polished than Elementary, I've never had a problem in my
(limited) experience with it.

~~~
pmlnr
I did, very recently, with Mint 18, and never before. ( random lockups with
Cinnamon, app crashes, etc. )

I'm still on the very same install, just switched to xfwm4 and tint2, and I'm
quite happy.

------
anondon
The software is there, but what about the hardware to go with it?

The only laptops comparable to Macbook Pro hardware quality and battery life
are the Dell XPS series and the Thinkpad X1.

I feel there is a serious shortage of good laptops with linux pre-installed
that the non-technical user can pickup and start using.

~~~
goombastic
The other problem is that laptops are being built like mobile phones, with
everything soldered to the board and the whole thing either sealed shut or
taped down. Upgradeable & portable laptops just dont seem to exist at the
price points they used to.

~~~
fizzbatter
Fwiw, i sort of like that. I understand it really sucks not being able to
replace chips, especially something as simple as adding RAM, but i've not
really seen a super compact laptop also allow me to replace RAM easily. My
Macbook Pro Retina is quite compact, and it's proven to be a really important
trait.

If someone makes them as compact and replaceable i'm on board, i just haven't
seen it. Not saying it's not possible of course :)

~~~
yulaow
I personally value far more the possibility to easily replace hw (battery for
sure, cpu, ram, and ssd at minimum, but even looking also for screen, keyboard
and wlan cards). For me is a good compromise in exchange of even 1-2 cm more
in thickness.

Just recently I was looking for a new laptop and ended up buying a refurbished
thinkpad t430 (270e with 8gb [gonna become 16] ram, ssd and i5 3rd gen)just
because I am sure I can change basically every part of it whenever I want for
a low price.

------
nsxwolf
So USB-C is what it takes to get you to switch to Linux?

What are you going to do when all other laptop manufacturers follow suit -
switch back?

Mac users who make this threat sound just like people who threaten to move to
Canada every election cycle.

~~~
nicolas_t
Personally, USB-C is the least of my problem. I care about having a fast,
powerful laptop with 32 or 64GB ram (I run a lot of VMs for my work, I could
offload it to the cloud but then it's more of a hassle).

I complain because Apple decided to make the macbook pro 15 inch lighter and
thinner resulting in 25% less battery (going from 99.5 watt-hour to 76.0-watt-
hour), this means that they have to make more compromises to keep a good
battery life and instead of having a decent graphic card like the nvidia gtx
1080 or 32GB ram, the new macbook pros are underpowered.

Since, apple is unlikely to decide to go back to the previous form factor,
they are unlikely to ever sell a laptop with decent performances compared to
their competitors.

And to add insult to the injury, switching to usb-c forces users (at least for
a year or two) to carry a lot of extra adapters which makes the weight loss
moot.

~~~
snowwrestler
> Since, apple is unlikely to decide to go back to the previous form factor,
> they are unlikely to ever sell a laptop with decent performances compared to
> their competitors.

Once the next generation of Intel processors land, I bet we'll see Macbook
Pros with faster processors and 32GB or more of RAM. At that point they will
catch up to their competitors.

But it's important to remember who Apple considers their competitors. They've
never competed on the cheap end--everyone knows that--but they've also never
competed on the high-power end. For at least the past 8 years it's been
possible to buy laptops that deliver more horsepower than a Macbook Pro, by
caring less about size, weight, and battery life. I think that will always be
true.

~~~
nicolas_t
It's true, but I don't remember having ever seen such a big gap in term of
performance (or at least since apple switched to intel). The macbook pro 17
inch used to be not bad when compared to competitors.

------
jjuel
I am sticking with Mac because it just works. I have had quite a few non-Mac
laptops previously. They rarely stay in good working condition for more than a
couple of years. I currently have the late 2012 13" retina Pro and it has
shown no signs of stopping. The only other one that has the sort of quality I
see in a MacBook is Dell's XPS. The developer edition has me intrigued, but I
really think this new MacBook with a Touchbar is going to be the future. The
lack of ESC or function keys has no bearing on my development so that isn't an
issue for me either.

~~~
matthewking
I think the keyboard is tipping me over the edge on the new MacBook Pro's, its
horrendous. There's no travel at all, the keys just immediately click.
Interested to see what other people think about them as they start getting
their hands on the new models, as a developer this is a very important aspect,
and on top of the unwanted touchbar, the massive price hike, the lack of
standard ports etc its all just a bit too much this time around.

~~~
todd8
I typing this on my coffeeshop computer, a 12" MacBook, with the butterfly
keys. I don't like them very much; my four year old MacBookPro Retina has much
nicer keys and so does my Apple Magic Keyboard on my desktop system.

I'm curious about the new MacBook Pro keys, they allude to second generation
butterfly keys. Have you had a chance to try the newly released system's
keyboard?

~~~
matthewking
Yes its the brand new keyboard that I was referring to, a friend got one from
his workplace, space grey looks amazing and the larger trackpad is nice but as
mentioned, keyboard is a no go. I really hope the reasoning for it wasn't to
shave off a few more mm!

I have the 2014 MBP so my comparison is skipping the first generation of
butterfly keyboard that you mentioned, I've been told that its worse than that
one too but I can't say myself.

~~~
brandoncordell
I know I'm in the minority here, but I always bring a small mechanical
keyboard anywhere I go. Usually something quiet, in case I'm working in a
coffee shop or something. A Poker2/3 fits well over the MBP's keyboard without
hitting any of the keys on accident.

~~~
matthewking
Yes I've seen people doing that, and I do appreciate a mechanical keyboard, is
the typing position a bit high though?

One thing I saw someone mention is that because the new keyboard is wider you
might not be able to rest a poker on top anymore, possibly because it won't
reach the edges to sit on them without sitting directly on the keys?

------
haffla
I find Apricity OS (Arch Linux) much better suited for developers. In fact at
work I switched from Ubuntu to Apricity. Through yaourt (paceman frontend) and
AUR (Arch User Repository) it's a breeze to install the latest versions of
literally everything you need be it Docker, Java or IntelliJ. I think it's
comparable with brew. Plus Apricity looks so much better than Elementary in my
opinion and almost manages to give you that macOS feeling.

~~~
vladimir-y
Why not Manjaro? Does Apricity ship Arch packages passed through the its own
repositories doing some testing and making sure core components are not broken
and work well one with each other in the Apricity terms and in general?
Manjaro does that, there is a kind of release cycle, every 1 or 2 week updates
come, ie updates come not directly from the Arch repos (except AUR stuff
obviously).

~~~
adultSwim
(sincerely) Why Manjaro and not just straight Arch?

~~~
vladimir-y
I used pure Arch for a few last years as a main system on my laptop (installed
and configured in console manually, so I'm not a full newbie), and have used
other Linux distributives before that also as a main system. Arch is fine, but
unfortunately I recently realized that I need more stability and that's why I
switched to Manjaro. I'm still not sure, but seems they do some tests and
polishing taking Arch packages, making sure core components work well, etc.

PS I installed Manjaro not using GUI installer, since it doesn't support disk
encryption well enough, and I don't use GRUB (default Manjaro boot loader),
but refind.

------
Shivetya
So I am clueless here, how does swapping the OS rectify any issues people had
with machine pricing or lack of desired new hardware features?

I don't get the angst. To me the disappointment is wholly related to the
action bar/etc/whatever it is called. Its such a lame approach to adding
additional functionality I would have never expected it from Apple. The
Windows environment has many machines fully embracing touch screens right
where the action is.

------
natch
Please don't be so gullible, folks! When you see an article marketing a
product, and they claim people are looking to switch to their product in
droves, take it with a grain of salt!

This is purely a promotional article, pretending to be a help article. Look at
the unattributed quotes it uses. Pretty sure the part about anybody switching
from anything to anything is made up. Sure people switch sometimes. Sure
people are complaining about Apple products, what else is new? Way to
capitalize on our sincere discussions of platform choices.

If HN swallows this kind of marketing-masquerading-as-technical-advice article
so easily, we're going to see a lot more of this writing pattern in the
future. Which means more marketing noise. Please don't buy it so readily.

~~~
Semiapies
Do you really think HN readers are so gullible as to not realize this, and
that _you_ are the only one to catch on?

~~~
natch
I would never think that. But I was taken aback by many of the comments on
this thread.

~~~
Semiapies
Which, the angry griping about how the distro makers want money, or the
yammering about how Photoshop users should just cowboy up and submit patches
to Gimp until they find it usable? As far as I can tell, the "gullibility" you
think you're seeing is anyone responding in any way, even skeptically, that's
not just covering their ears and going, "La la la, I can't hear your
marketing!"

------
youdontknowtho
I love the work that the elementary project is doing. Really great stuff...

~~~
rocky1138
I tried running it this week since I have a lot of friends who use Macs. I
figured I could help them out if they had questions, etc. But after a few
minutes I went back to KDE as Elementary was horribly broken coming from
Kububtu.

It probably assumes you'll be installing from fresh.

~~~
boredpudding
elementary is indeed not meant to be 'just a desktop environment like gnome /
kde'. Installing it that way is not supported. It's a full operating system
including default apps, etc. all sorts of things you probably didn't install.

You should indeed install it fresh. I hope you didn't give your friends a bad
expression.

~~~
rocky1138
I didn't. I didn't tell them anything.

I just don't have any interest in installing it full. Instead I went with KDE
Neon.

~~~
youdontknowtho
KDE Neon looks great too. I really respect their work.

------
88e282102ae2e5b
I would highly recommend Xubuntu instead. Aesthetically I don't think there's
a better Linux distro, and it's almost to the point quality-wise where I'd
recommend it to my parents.

------
noir_lord
Playing with it in VirtualBox.

First impressions, it's very very pretty, the design out the box is nice
though it's completely the antithesis of how I work (3 screens, panel on each,
window buttons only for windows on that screen).

The level of integration is nice, it feels cohesive.

That said XFCE4 with some tweaking is pretty much perfect for me, it exactly
works the way I want things to work.

------
throwsincenotpc
They need to watch out because apparently the Gnome foundation wants to ditch
Vala for Rust to cut cost and "attract more developers" :

[https://siliconislandblog.wordpress.com/2016/10/31/thoughts-...](https://siliconislandblog.wordpress.com/2016/10/31/thoughts-
on-dx-gnome-and-rust/)

> and support a preferred programming language (Vala)

[https://launchpad.net/elementary](https://launchpad.net/elementary)

~~~
pmlnr
Gnome foundation: when you finally gain traction, you press reset, bravo.

~~~
throwsincenotpc
lol right, I expect them to move to QT anyway ... /s

------
blowski
How does this compare to Ubuntu Desktop? Why would I use one over the other? I
ask as somebody who used to use Ubuntu a few years ago, and wants to switch
back to Linux in the next few months.

~~~
toyg
In my very limited experience, Elementary is really minimal and tries hard to
get out of the way, but it provides what is still fundamentally a
desktop/mouse-oriented interface: you have a dock, a systray, and a "Start"
menu.

Ubuntu veered towards the touch stuff, using nontraditional approaches; I
honestly get lost these days when I have to use it.

------
my123
Elementary is quite nice on HiDPI until you use apps which need other graphics
toolkits...

~~~
toyg
The Linux world should really get together and bang out a solution for the
hiDPI problem that is consistent across X servers and window managers.

~~~
truncate
Most apps I use on Ubuntu work well on hidpi. The main problem I face is when
I connect my laptop with 4k screen with some external monitor with 2k or 1080p
display.

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
What issues do you face, because I currently use that exact workflow with a
MacbookPro retina, and a 24" dell monitor. Apart from windows not
resizing/positioning automatically (so I have to manually re-layout everything
whenever I switch from monitor to laptop), I haven't really suffered any
problems so am curious to know what issues I'd face if I switched to Ubuntu.

~~~
vetinari
I did face problem with macOS and having external low-DPI monitor: the Finder
would act up sometimes: when you rename file the caret and edited text would
be someplace else that the filename shown in Finder and dragging and droping
files would stop working. Firefox had similar problems with addressbar and
controls in web pages too.

All these things disappeared when I changed the external monitor for a HiDPI
one.

------
buckbova
I currently use xfce[1] with docky[2] and it feels pretty good. Probably not
as polished but I know it's stable.

There were other distros in the past trying to copy macOS, pear os[3] was one
of them.

I remember Lindows[4] trying to market itself as a windows replacement. I
can't believe they got sued and actually lost[5]! Xandros[6] was also in this
space. They probably went BK.

Every year is the year of Linux for the desktop but it's really not possible
to capture this market. It'll have to come from someone like google. Why
couldn't chrome os have been a legit linux distro instead of trying for a
niche netbook market with a locked down OS?

[1] [http://xfce.org/](http://xfce.org/)

[2] [http://wiki.go-
docky.com/index.php?title=Welcome_to_the_Dock...](http://wiki.go-
docky.com/index.php?title=Welcome_to_the_Docky_wiki)

[3]
[http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=pear](http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=pear)

[4]
[http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=linspire](http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=linspire)

[5]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._Lindows.com...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._Lindows.com,_Inc).

[6]
[http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=xandros](http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=xandros)

~~~
cooper12
Wait from the article on Windows, it actually claims the opposite, saying that
the court rejected Microsoft's claims and that it later settled with Lindows,
paying for their trademark.

~~~
buckbova
You're totally right. I guess I just mis-remembered it expecting the name
change meant they lost.

------
simonhorlick
It's great timing for elementary. I'm having a lot of software problems with
the Mac, and since I develop exclusively for Linux it seems like it'd be a lot
easier if I could build and run everything on my target platform.

~~~
matzipan
The elementary community would love feedback on how to solve pains with mac.
There's a subreddit or you could post bug reports on launchpad.

~~~
simonhorlick
No - Linux runs great, it's macOS I'm having issues with!

------
matzipan
I think one needs to also highlight the differences.

mac OS is built by one major player and they have a clear direction of where
they want to take this. Linux, in general, is built by communities of people
who may or may not have diverging opinions, priorities and interests. While
this gives you a lot diversity, it can be quite problematic.

The financial aspect is also important. elementary LLC itself, has only 2
full-time employees, while Apple is sitting on a pile of cash. Yes, elementary
builds on a solid open-source base [1] built by thousands of developers world-
wide, some volunteers, some employees, but it's still a significant
difference.

Having a smaller scale, it means elementary can be more agile in its changes.
This also means that there is smaller testing base, which means there will be
more bugs. The nice part is that, when you find a bug, you can help fix it
[2].

[1] [https://elementary.io/open-source](https://elementary.io/open-source)

[2] [https://elementary.io/get-involved](https://elementary.io/get-involved)

------
driverdan
Every few years I investigate switching back to a Linux laptop. Every time I
find there are _still_ issues. Last time it was poor GPU support (no fast
switching) and buggy sleep.

What issues still exist with using Linux on laptops?

~~~
pavelludiq
It highly depends on the laptop you're talking about specifically. Some will
just work, others will steal your soul with frustration. I've had very few
issues on my thinkpad x240 with Kubuntu. It's an older model, but back when it
was less than a year old I still had very few issues with it. Mostly with the
touchpad, but that particular model is horrible even with good drivers, so I
don't use it in general. I had to fiddle with some bearded parts when I wanted
my battery to only charge to 70%, rather than keep a full charge while plugged
in as the lenovo bits are windows only(I vaguely remember having to set up
shell scripts of some sort). Bluetooth didn't work in the beginning, but
upgrading to a newer Kubuntu fixed that, and I don't use that very often
either, so I didn't mind. Also generally battery life is slightly worse than
windows but this also varies. And although Windows 10 is a fairly snappy, it
spins my fans much more than Kubuntu does.

The last computer I had significant hardware problems with on linux had a
Pentium 4, but I've been vary careful with hardware choice in the last decade.
Do your research and you'll be fine.

------
sschueller
The only reason I am still using a Mac is because I need to be able to compile
iPhone apps and unlike android I can only do this in OSX. All my other tools
are already available in Linux or even Windows.

~~~
Void_
Sounds like you only need it for compilation. Do you develop in Xcode? What
IDE/tool do you use?

------
bborud
It wasn't the UI that got me using macs. In fact the UI was a pain in the neck
since it couldn't do what my Linux window managers could do. And I kinda liked
how I had my WM set up.

It was the fact that software I needed was available on Mac and I didn't want
to use Windows.

------
aoeuhtns
Going by the comments here, I am surprised by how few people seem to use Linux
on their laptop! Maybe selection bias due to the thread topic?

Of course, not everything will work, but for me, they often fall into the
nice-to-have category of features, not a must-have. Maybe my preferences are
not shared widely.

Been using Debian unstable and Xmonad for a long time, and it's hard to try
and use anything else now. Most dev tools work natively ... no funky VMs to
emulate, except Windows for Edge browser testing ... all works really well.

------
vladimir-y
I think for those who are not able to install and configure Linux manually
from scratch not using a graphical installer would be better to use Windows 10
(not a bad OS), with no irony. Since such kind of articles and "simplified"
systems like that "elementary OS" do hide Linux complexity. One day user will
face a really serious OS issues and will stuck with that not knowing what to
do (for example not bootable system after the update, it's not so likely, but
might happen with Linux).

~~~
reitanqild
Plain wrong IMO.

Have been using Linux professionally and on my personal machines on and off
for 15 years, sonce I was a student. A bit more work than Windows in some
ways, less in others.

I came to Ubuntu back in 2005ish based on a tip from a then 50 year old
electrical engineer who had fallen in love.

My bus driver this morning loves it (we sometimes talk while waiting).

So stop spreading this FUD.

And this comes from someone who has started liking Windows UX lately.

~~~
vladimir-y
You didn't get a point of my message. But I'm not going to keep explaining
conversation with a person who is writing to me to stop expressing my own
opinion which is backed by some experience, you better keep chatting with your
bus driver.

~~~
reitanqild
I think I got your point.

It doesn't seem like you got mine:

Lots of people - including people who aren't pro users - have been using Linux
happily for years.

Post like yours are likely to discourage people from even trying, which is why
I try to correct what I see as misinformation.

You are free to explain why I am wrong instead of starting to pick on the
anecdote.

------
vondur
Elementary is one of the least stable Linux distros that are out there. I have
a friend who's been running Debian forever using Afterstep as the WM, and it's
rock solid. Granted, he does most of his work in the terminal using emacs.
I've never had good luck with linux on the laptop, but I've had good luck
using it on the desktop, so long as I stuck with Intel chipsets and Nvidia
GPU's. The lack of apps is going to be an issue for most people though.

------
gotofritz
I bought a MBP a few months ago because I was travelling to the UK and the low
pound made it a no brainer (I saved 350€) but part of me was annoying at
missing out on the latest version that was about to be released.

It looks like I dodged a bullet; in 4-5 years, when I'll need an upgrade, all
these issues will be solved, USB-C will either have become standard or gone
firewire's way, the pointless emoji board will be quietly shelved, more RAM
will be possible, etc

------
aibottle
Do people realize they can run Linux on their Macbooks? Who needs elementary,
just install Debian.

~~~
pmlnr
It takes time to get the mentality; took me years as well.

The shiny & pretty, especially if you're coming from the shiny & pretty, seems
better and you forget to appreciate the things that silently just work in the
background.

I've recently switched from the previous elementary (due to bugs and missing
features) first to Mint 18 Cinnamon, just to find a lot of bugs there are well
( at least no missing features ), then to XFCE.

I'm slowly building an itch towards where most distros are moving to (being
swallowed up by systemd), so XFCE: to get familiar with something that is
truly portable, and runs of BSDs as well. xfwm4 + tint2 as panel + synapse as
"menu" to be specific, and I'm really happy I did it.

No, it's not as nice as eOS or Gnome Shell; some apps are quite ugly and the
terminal windows don't line up when tiled.

But it works. It's fast, it's glitch and bug-free so far; power management
flies, and it feels like I got all the good from the good ol' Gnome2 days with
updates.

The truth is, tint2 eliminated the need for fancy indicators: it has an
executor, with which you can do (nearly) anything, like displaying weather,
cpu temperature, fan speed, changing governors with clicks, etc.

So, as I started: it takes a lot of frustration, but eventually, you'll get to
the point of install the most simple, most robust thing.

------
Beowolve
I appreciate them capitalizing on people looking to switch. I think they could
have done a better job of describing how to switch instead of talking about
what people love. I think it would have been better for them to talk about
some main sticking points, like how to get out of the ecosystem (say iTunes or
Photos). Either way, nice to see the competition stepping up and capitalizing
on the situation.

~~~
fnordsensei
While I agree, I can also understand why they would want to give people coming
from macOS an impression of what they can expect from the switch in terms of
apps, etc.

"Exiting the ecosystem" is a guide crying out to be written though.

------
vonklaus
interesting project, would like to check it out. I recently upgraded from
MacOS to Yosemite and have been quite happy. That said it would be nice to see
other options.

------
throw2016
I regularly use Windows, OSX and Linux and I think Ubuntu Unity in 16.04 is by
far the most polished Linux desktop and for people switching to Linux that
would be the best first experience.

In many ways I even prefer Unity. OSX is becoming a bit stagnant and bloated
of late. The Unity UI is fast, the effects are polished and not gimmicky, the
launcher and search across apps and file is near instantaneous, driver
detection and configuration is streamlined and everything looks well put
together.

Most Linux users have put up with some pretty awful apps, UIs and configs over
the evolution of Linux and I am glad how far Ubuntu has come.

Elementary is decent but at the moment both Gnome and Unity have moved ahead
and offer a more consistent and professional user experience for first timers.

------
pmlnr
eOS again, within a few days. I see they are pushing their marketing well.

I'm just going to link conversation from a couple of days before:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12830761](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12830761)

------
bitslayer
One thing I have wondered about is keyboard shortcuts. Does Elementary follow
the Mac conventions?

~~~
matzipan
I don't know mac conventions as I generally don't use keys on my mac. But
elementary certainly has a configurable keyboard shortcuts panel.

------
bluedino
Are there any distributions where the display scaling works at least as good
as Windows 10? I don't expect it to be as perfect as the Mac but the current
Ubuntu is a mess when you change the scaling factor.

~~~
matzipan
elementary should automatically handle your hidpi quite well.

~~~
philbot1008
source?

~~~
matzipan
I'm part of the community. I have seen alot of work being put into making
hidpi work properly. I can't find any changelog mentions though :(

Here's a community post:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/elementaryos/comments/53gkr1/elemen...](https://www.reddit.com/r/elementaryos/comments/53gkr1/elementary_os_loki_hidpi_experience_and_tips/)

And some hidpi icon work: [http://blog.elementary.io/post/124193007916/whats-
up-with-hi...](http://blog.elementary.io/post/124193007916/whats-up-with-
hidpi-icons)

~~~
matzipan
Found it: [https://blueprints.launchpad.net/elementaryos/+spec/hidpi-
su...](https://blueprints.launchpad.net/elementaryos/+spec/hidpi-support)

------
aq3cn
Is there a place where I can directly ask experts or experienced users about
alternative apps of my need. I have been making my mind about complete switch
but few of the most used apps from Mac holds me back. I wish someone can
suggest me a decent alternative to those apps. I must also add that I will
lose several licenses of purchased apps in the process but I am willing to
make that sacrifice. I wish I could find a reliable way to keep running those
apps in VM.

------
Jtsummers
What's the gain of Elementary over other Linux distros? Is it really that much
better than the start of the art anywhere else?

Do the apps integrate, in some meaningful way, more easily with each other
than with, say, a stock Gnome install on top of Red Hat?

Is it as novel as Etoile? Or is it just a skin + conforming apps?

------
r3bl
The thing I've used the most while I used elementary is the option to direct
perform actions of the apps. I find it so easy to just press the keyboard
shortcut and do something like "2+2" and get "4" as a result. I absolutely
loved that!

~~~
mangeletti
Check out the Alfred App for Mac. It's this and it's wonderful.

------
yalogin
What exactly is the reason to switch to another OS? I thought the complaints
were about hardware. How the hell is elementary OS going to make the hardware
better? Also can someone tell me the main complaint about the hardware, is it
the USB-C and the sd card?

~~~
reitanqild
It can run on non-Apple hardware.

------
tambourine_man
Unfortunately, no Photoshop, no go

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
I feel like, unless your situation dictates a specific product (which is
unlikely), this should be rephrased "Unfortunately, no graphics editor that
does x, y, z". If you continue to put up a 'Photoshop' barrier, then you will
never be able to consider any alternatives — assume Photoshop will never
happen on Linux, but that there may well be a graphics tool in future that is
far superior as far as your needs are concerned; it may even already exist!
Furthermore, the developers behind OS alternatives will never know what
functionality you require if all the details you give are "Photoshop".

~~~
reitoei
> If you continue to put up a 'Photoshop' barrier, then you will never be able
> to consider any alternatives

It's an industry/education barrier more than anything else. Photoshop has been
the standard for years because it generally works quite well and is supported
on the two major desktop operating systems.

> assume Photoshop will never happen on Linux

Probably not, no money in it for Adobe. I've always said I'd happily pay for a
commercial Linux OS developed by Adobe that ran Creative Suite.

> it may even already exist

It doesn't.

> the developers behind OS alternatives will never know what functionality you
> require if all the details you give are "Photoshop"

No offence but you're kind of talking about Photoshop like it's MS Paint. It's
a ubiquitous, massively bloated, complicated piece of software (10 million
LOC, roughly the same as the Linux kernel?) that can take years to master.

------
NuSkooler
I've been using Elementary OS for a few years now. THIS is the Linux desktop
for me & easily replaces Windows and/or OS X with the exception of serious
gaming where you're likely be be running Windows no matter what.

------
Exuma
Honestly, this looks abysmal. This is like 1/1000th of the complexity and
flexibility of macOS. What are you actually so upset about that warrants
building a new, hideous, kiddy-version of mac OS?

~~~
matzipan
You clearly haven't tried neither elementary nor Linux in general. There are
many legitimate reasons why you might want to use elementary just as well as
there are many legitimate reasons why you might want to use macOS. You're
condemning diversity? To each their own.

------
bluepill
Why do macOS users seem to want to migrate to elementary?

I mean why elementary as your choice for a Linux distro?

~~~
natch
They don't... my take is it's just a fiction made up by someone trying to
promote a distro.

~~~
bluepill
thanks for the clarification.

------
nyxtom
Still need to get better facetimehd support.

------
throwanem
No Spotlight?

------
vsh
Vultures ;-)

------
jordache
I would rather use BeOS

------
wjd2030
Otherwise known as the "Here are the reasons Apple will probably sue us" blog.

------
KKKKkkkk1
The elephant in the room is that Elementary is infringing on Apple's copyright
by imitating macOS design. Linux has great desktop environments (Unity, KDE,
Gnome). Elementary's claim to fame is that it has good design (wink). If
stealing others' GPL-licensed code is wrong, then so is this.

~~~
gvb
You are confusing copyright[1] (covers written works, such as source code)
with design patents[2] (covers look and feel). If Elementary is infringing on
Apple's patents, that would be wrong.

A cursory search of OSX design patents[3] turns up the Dock patent[4]. Whether
Elementary infringes the patent is a legal matter (IANAL).

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent)

[3]
[https://www.google.com/search?q=design+patent+osx&ie=utf-8&o...](https://www.google.com/search?q=design+patent+osx&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

[4] [http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-
Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=H...](http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-
Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,434,177.PN.&OS=PN/7,434,177&RS=PN/7,434,177):

------
xaduha
Check Solus instead

[https://solus-project.com/](https://solus-project.com/)

~~~
GavinMcG
I've downvoted you for now, since your comment doesn't tell us anything about
the project and appears to be a lazy effort to piggyback off the resource that
(I presume) a competitor has offered.

~~~
xaduha
I wrote that comment first, but then got a login prompt and thought it didn't
go through. But it did, so I deleted my second comment, which went something
like

> I recently installed Solus and was pleasantly surprised

I don't have a detailed comparison or anything like that, I haven't used that
many Linux desktop distros to begin with, but I did try Elementary OS and
found it wanting.

------
aorth
Yes, the Elementary team has been doing great work for years. Sad that it's
all parallel to the efforts of the larger GNOME Desktop project. I don't know
how much code gets shared between the two, but I cringe to think that
Elementary is dragging along a suitcase full of patches! Some of their apps
are forks, while others are written from scratch to fit their design
(UI/UX/simplicity) goals. I think their decision to use what amounts to a
random, third-party web browser (Midori) as the default is laughable (this day
and age, would any security-conscious person NOT recommend Chrome?).

Nonetheless, bravo to the Elementary team for taking the time to even write up
this blog post (which is apparently the first in a series).

Edit: replies pointed out that Epiphany is the default web browser. Point
still stands that Chrome implements the most security mitigations out of ALL
browsers on the market.

~~~
toyg
_> would any security-conscious person NOT recommend Chrome?_

Would any security-conscious person DO recommend a browser made by an
advertising company for datamining purposes?

Firefox is a much better choice for the privacy/security-aware individual.

~~~
aorth
But privacy != security. Chrome implements the most security mitigations
compared to all other browsers.

~~~
krzyk
Do you any source to back that up? This is the first time I hear something
like that.

~~~
aorth
It's well known in the information security community for years. But here's a
recent article on grading software security like how we grade cars:

[https://theintercept.com/2016/07/29/a-famed-hacker-is-
gradin...](https://theintercept.com/2016/07/29/a-famed-hacker-is-grading-
thousands-of-programs-and-may-revolutionize-software-in-the-process/)

They give one example (with a graph) of the security mitigations that are in
popular web browsers:

[https://prod01-cdn07.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-
uploads/sites/1/20...](https://prod01-cdn07.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-
uploads/sites/1/2016/07/Bar-graph.png)

Firefox scored below Chrome and Safari in several areas: address space layout
randomization (ASLR), heap protection, stack guards, fortified source. And
I've even seen infosec people saying that Firefox has some of these, but
doesn't even enable them on builds for some platforms!

