
I made $200K and PayPal locked my account - blasten
I'm the creator of turn.js (www.turnjs.com), a javascript library for books and magazines. I released a commercial version in July 2012 and six month later I made $200K. I don’t know how, but I made it.<p>PayPal has closed my account because I don’t have a social security number. It seems like I don’t qualify for one because I’m just “an international student” from Venezuela.<p>I have been working really hard to release a product for publishers that converts PDFs to HTML5 for books and magazine with the brand-new turn.js 5th release.<p>I don’t know what to do or where to go. I don't have more money.<p>Please help.<p>Any suggestion would be appreciated.<p>blasten@gmail.com<p>Emmanuel
======
InclinedPlane
Wow, the sheer quantity of unhelpful advice in this thread is simply mind
boggling. Hey, let's all hate paypal because they "steal" people's money.
Ignoring the seriously thorny legal bramble that the OP has run headlong into
with nary a concern. There is a bounteous variety of comments of the form
"Paypal sux! {Use X instead!}" Where X may be stripe, or wepay, or whatever.
Ignoring the fact that stripe wouldn't help in this case (it's US only), if
you go read the terms of service of stripe or wepay you'll find exactly the
same things there as are at issue here. You'll need an SSN or EID or tax ID
with stripe too, just as you would with a WePay business account. There's a
reason for that, and it has to do with the law.

There are maybe only half a dozen reasonable, substantially helpful, and
actionable replies in this whole thread (which would put it at maybe a 4%
SNR), almost all the rest is useless. If this is what HN is going to be, I
don't want it.

As for my advice, it's simple. Go talk to a lawyer as soon as possible, you
have a lot of issues that need sorting and a good lawyer is absolutely
necessary to get through those issues, and they'll help to put you on the
right footing to deal with paypal. It sucks that you have been acting in good
faith and doing good work and have gotten tangled in the mess that is the many
layers of laws, regulations, and corporate policies that make up our modern
immigration, taxation, and financial systems. You have my sympathies for that
and I wish you the best of luck, hopefully you'll be able to keep the proceeds
of your excellent work without any serious negative repercussions.

~~~
chris_wot
What, so PayPal allowed him to use their service with a Social Security
number, then they take his money because he doesn't have one?

PayPal is the one at fault here. Don't let someone use your service without
adequate ID. Tell them and require it before you can use the service.

~~~
scorpion032
You can deposit the funds without any tax details or linking any bank account.
But you cannot withdraw it without one.

If transferring money without SSN is illegal; I wonder how collecting it
without one would be legal.

~~~
chris_wot
Then PayPal should make this very, very clear. In fact, I'd go further: they
should mandate that you provide an SSN before you can collect money. It's
unethical to do otherwise: anyone who uses PayPal to collect money will want
to withdraw it.

~~~
JohnHaugeland
One, PayPal _does_ make their rules very clear. It isn't PayPal's fault that
its users don't bother to read the rules.

Two, these rules do not come from PayPal; they come from the US Federal
Government.

Three, the thing you're saying they should make clear is something someone
else guessed about, and it's not correct. As long as the number is under $600
a year, there's no paperwork required.

I don't understand why we're all panicking so hard about a set of guesses that
people have made. If you just think the situation over a little bit, it's
pretty obvious that what's really going on is OP hasn't finished his free tax
paperwork, and that PayPal can't hand out money until the tax situation is
made legal.

And when you look at it that way, PayPal is actually doing exactly the right
thing.

~~~
chris_wot
Yet they asked him for his SSN. They didn't ask for him to fill in his "tax
paperwork".

I'm very interested in what tax laws you believe he's broken though.

------
gojomo
Concur with javajosh's recommendation to find a California/USA-based lawyer
for help. Advice from semi-anonymous strangers in internet forums is worth
what you pay for it.

Generally, in the search for a lawyer, you get to talk to many (without
charge) for 15-45 minutes each. You may be surprised how widely their
estimations of the issues vary -- the law is the law, right? -- but you'll
learn something from each conversation, and perhaps find someone you trust
with your concerns. Also, legal confidentiality means that even if you've
messed up on some tax/immigration/work-authorization/business things, talking
with them honestly doesn't mean you've made any admissions that get back to
the authorities (unless and until with their advice you decide that's the best
course).

If a student in the US, your educational institution may also have a legal aid
clinic.

You can probably get an 'ITIN', the equivalent to a Social Security Number for
non-domestic individuals/entities who need an SSN-like number for
tax/financial reporting purposes. See...

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Taxpayer_Identificat...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Taxpayer_Identification_Number)

...and the related IRS pages. And again, just getting the number isn't
admitting to anything or any tax liability. However, it then will be used by
financial institutions (like PayPal) to maintain their internal and
government-required reporting requirements. Separate from just tax issues,
amounts in the tens-of-thousands (and sometimes less) are subject to reporting
to control money-laundering from large-scale illegal activities.

~~~
downandout
Unfortunately, while a lawyer can certainly make a request to PayPal, their
user agreements are loud and clear on the issue of freezing accounts.
Essentially, you agree that they can close your account and hold your funds
for any reason or no reason at all. The freeze can last for up to 180 days
from the date of your last chargeback, or from the date they froze the
account, whichever is later. As you can see, they apply this policy liberally
and always to their benefit.

TBH, you have already played your best card by getting this to the front page
of Hacker News. You may well get your money released relatively soon because
someone at PP has or will soon see this. It's sad that this is what it takes
just to make them be honest, but that is what you get when you deal with
PayPal.

Good luck, and never use Paypal again. Use Bitcoins or Stripe.

~~~
einhverfr
> Unfortunately, while a lawyer can certainly make a request to PayPal, their
> user agreements are loud and clear on the issue of freezing accounts.
> Essentially, you agree that they can close your account and hold your funds
> for any reason or no reason at all.

Every lawyer I have ever talked to formally or informally have said such
things may be challengeable in court. That's why you want to talk to a lawyer.

> The freeze can last for up to 180 days from the date of your last
> chargeback, or from the date they froze the account, whichever is later.

Again quite true. If it is only 180 days though, that's one thing, but only to
the point they are reasonable (again talk to a lawyer). If they hold onto it
indefinitely that is theft.

> Good luck, and never use Paypal again. Use Bitcoins or Stripe.

Yep. Use anything else.

~~~
chris_wot
>> Unfortunately, while a lawyer can certainly make a request to PayPal, their
user agreements are loud and clear on the issue of freezing accounts.
Essentially, you agree that they can close your account and hold your funds
for any reason or no reason at all.

> Every lawyer I have ever talked to formally or informally have said such
> things may be challengeable in court. That's why you want to talk to a
> lawyer.

It's because it's what's called an unenforceable contract [1], because if they
close the account for any reason, that reason could be because you are selling
some goods, but PayPal doesn't like it. A court shouldn't uphold that, and I'd
love to see PayPal be brought to task by someone with enough money, time and
anger that they pursue a lawsuit to it's logical conclusion.

1\. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unenforceable>

------
ChuckMcM
Sad story, I agree with folks who say you should seek out legal advice.

HEADS UP FOR ANYONE ELSE CONSIDERING THIS:

If you are going to receive funds with PayPal and they are going to exceed the
'occasional sale' guidelines (which some people interpret to mean the same
guidelines at the rule for sending an IRS 1099 form which is < $600 annually.

First establish your business presence in the US, that means creating an LLC,
getting an EIN [1] and establishing a relationship with a US based bank.

If you get hung up on those steps, don't start taking money with PayPal
because their zealous anti-fraud/laundering/drug program fires on a hair
trigger. It didn't help that the OP is a student from Venezuela which is not
one of America's trading partners.

I expect you will lose most of this money in legal fees. However, if the
business is durable, and you manage to establish your LLC (that lawyer you got
can help with that) then you will make it back and PayPal will back down. As
long as the money trail can be tracked and everyone in the path reports it to
the Federal Government so that they are satisfied it isn't part of a
laundering scheme[2], or if it was they can catch the folks involved, you will
be ok.

[1] [http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-
Taxpayers/Taxpa...](http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-
Taxpayers/Taxpayer-Identification-Numbers-\(TIN\)#ein)

[2] This is how the laundering scheme would work. Some criminal enterprise
hires a bunch of third parties to buy your 'widget' for an inflated price, say
$10,000 per copy. You sell the 20 copies, get the $200,000, now you go to a
coffee shop owned by the criminal enterprise and buy a Double Vente Latte for
$180,000 made out of hand picked coffee beans. The crook now has $180,000 of
"legitimate" income from his coffee shop, you have $20,000 in "profits" on
your amazing Javascript widget, and 20 drug dealers have a bit of software
they just delete from their hard drive (if they down loaded it at all).
Everybody "wins." So the US Government wants to be able to subpoena your
customer list to track the money from the drug dealers to you and then back to
the crooks. Paypal helps with that. If you make it hard for them to do that,
they keep you money.

~~~
goldfeld
Here's a related question. PayPal is officially in my country. Can I take
money from anyone in the world and receive it in under my country's law?

~~~
MahaliAudran
Yes, if PayPal does business in those countries.

There are some countries were you can pay but not receive funds and some where
you can sell but can't keep any money in your PayPal account (it's
automatically transfered every day to you local bank account).

PayPal wants to do business everywhere it can (that's how they make money) and
modifies how it does business to meet the laws it must.

So, it can't do business in countries where the US prohibits it (see the OFAC
list) as they're a US company and limits account functions where other laws
require it.

------
dangrossman
From your comments, you had multiple PayPal accounts (disallowed), were in
Venezuela, using a US PayPal account, then transferring the funds to a PayPal
account in Venezuela, and can't provide a tax ID for the US account. At the
same time, you went from zero to hundreds of thousands in payments in just a
few months. To PayPal, you likely appear to be a criminal involved in some
type of money laundering or tax evasion scheme. I don't know enough about
student Visas and international tax agreements to say you aren't _actually_
engaging in tax evasion, perhaps unknowingly.

It's not surprising they locked the account and asked for documentation. The
tax code pretty much guarantees they would within a year in order to file the
1099-K on your account. This stuff is serious to them, both from a financial
(the potential losses if this money disappears because it's not been moving
legally) and regulatory fronts (US Patriot Act among others requires banks,
like those underwriting your US PayPal account, to be able to accurately
identify their customers). This might not be easy to fix.

~~~
greenyoda
Thanks, I had never heard of a 1099-K before.

In case others are curious, here's a description of what it is:

 _"Due to the rise of of people making money with the help of the Internet,
the 1099-K has been introduced. For the most part, the 1099-K is meant to
ensure that income made from power sellers on sites like eBay is properly
reported. The 1099-K is issued by third party payment processors, including
banks and non-bank services like PayPal. So, if you use eBay to earn money
selling, your transactions, processed through PayPal, will be reflected on the
1099-K issued by PayPal."_ [1]

[1] <http://cashmoneylife.com/1099-k-form-reporting-requirements>

------
nlh
Sorry to hear about the troubles :(

If this wasn't the umpteenth time I've heard this story, I wouldn't say this
so pesteringly:

To everyone: Stop stop stop stop stop using PayPal. This happens over and over
again. For once, thankfully, there are viable alternatives out there -- Stripe
& WePay to name two (both of which I've had excellent experiences with).

Not saying they're panaceas or that there won't be security/freezing issues
from the new guys, but PayPal has a documented, extensive, and repeated
history of freezing accounts with large amounts of money in them over
short(ish) periods of time.

~~~
revelation
If you have to use PayPal: _regularly_ transfer any money to an actual bank
with actual responsibilities, not some fake holding bank registered in Ireland
or whatever PayPal is using today to evade tax and consumer laws.

You are not getting interest by letting that money sit with PayPal.

~~~
preinheimer
PayPal allows itself to pull money out of a bank account associated with the
account as required.

~~~
ComputerGuru
Yes. The real solution is to have two separate, linked bank accounts, only
link one of them to PayPal. Set PayPal to sweep into bank account A daily, and
then have your bank set up an automatic sweep from account A to B either daily
or as it reaches a threshold.

However, even if you don't do this, PayPal transactions are via ACH (actually,
this isn't a PayPal-only thing - technically anyone with your ACH account info
(the stuff at the bottom of your checks!!) can push/pull money into/from your
account, it's the nature of the beast) and that has many failsafes and undos
available, though it is a real PITA.

------
sp_
When you say you're an international student, do you mean you're in the US on
an F-1 visa? If yes, you might be in violation of your visa terms. If you have
not researched this, please start reading at
[http://www.justanswer.com/immigration-law/330cd-
holding-f-1-...](http://www.justanswer.com/immigration-law/330cd-
holding-f-1-visa-sell-software.html)

~~~
winter_blue
I was an F-1 student too, and here's my suggestion:

This coming Summer, apply for _pre-completion OPT_.

You _are_ allowed to start a company (register a corporation), and work for it
under OPT status. I have inquired about this on HN before:
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1523021> I also verified with the DSOs
(Designated School Officials) at my university, who are authorized to give
legal advice on this matter, and they said that it was _indeed possible_ to be
self-employed / do a startup while on OPT.

What you should do is:

1\. Apply for pre-completion OPT right away. Once you get your EAD (it'll have
a start date on it), register for a C-Corporation after the start date.
(Unfortunately, non-citizens cannot start S-Corps, which are actually more
suited to startups).

2\. Then get a bank account on the company's name; link that account to your
PayPal account, and cash the money to the company's bank account. You can then
pay yourself a lump-some "salary" or cash it out via stock dividends.

3\. Since your pre-completion OPT is authorized only for the summer, you'll
have to stop "working for your company" at the end of the OPT period. So that
this doesn't bite you again, in the meanwhile you should find a different
solution to charging customers such as an international PayPal account or some
other payment solution that is not based in the US.

4\. Once you graduate, you'll be able to work for you company for atleast 12
months; and if you have a STEM degree (Comp Sci counts as one), you can work
for it for an additional 17 months (adding up to a total of 29 months). After
that there really aren't any other visas for startups / being self-employed,
as the H1B requires that you own less than 50% of the company employing you
(the real issue is that "you are not in control of your employment" and that
you're fireable -- so even substantial ownership under 50% might be
problematic -- but IANAL and I don't know about this. It might indeed be
possible to do a startup on an H1B with 3 co-founders. Check with a lawyer.)

5\. After the 29 months of post-completion OPT, if you are not particularly
attached to the United States, there are many countries that welcome startups
and self-employed freelancers and issue visas for such people. One such place
is Dubai, a modern metropolitan city with people from various backgrounds. The
DTMFZA (Dubai Technology and Media Free Zone Authority) issues Freelance
permits (for $3k/year) that let you be self-employed in the country. One of
the great things about Dubai (and the UAE in general) are the _zero taxes_. To
top it all, Dubai happens to be a really great city. Other options, perhaps
include Singapore and other cities/countries, but I don't know about the
immigration/visa deal for freelancers in those countries.

Good luck! If you have any further questions, feel free to reply to this
thread -- I'll be monitoring it.

~~~
jonramz
You cannot do both 12 months of pre-completion and 12 months of post-
completion OPT, you only get 12 months of OPT per degree level

~~~
winter_blue
Yes, you're right. So if the OP works for 3 months this summer, he can still
do 9 months of post-completion + 17 months if he has a STEM degree.

~~~
jonramz
can only do STEM is he works for an e-verified company, STEM is tougher to get
for people running their own business

------
patio11
Apply for a TIN - taxpayer identification number. PayPal can use it in lieu of
an SSN. This will take you six weeks. In the alternative, consult a local
lawyer and have them nastygram Paypal for you.

~~~
canttestthis
If he's an international student, he's only allowed to work on campus. If he
gets a US tax ID and files income under that, his library sales will count as
off-campus income (I think?). So I'm not sure if this is an option. Of course,
IANAL.

~~~
einhverfr
But that depends. I would suggest talking with an immigration lawyer. Surely
the fact that such is non-tangible sales over the internet should allow some
reasonable solution.

I have founded businesses with people from other countries and I have never
had trouble with immigration laws provided that people weren't doing billable
labor for customers in countries where they weren't supposed to.

------
anigbrowl
You have $200k sitting in your paypal account? Don't you have a bank account?
What country are you in? What exactly did they say to you? How you mean you
'don't know how' you made $200k - you didn't expect to sell so much, or you
sold $200k in one go with no idea who gave it to you? This seriously needs
more information.

~~~
omfg
It's always a shame stories like this get so much attention. Lots of 'PayPal
is evil' comments. A completely one sided 'I'm so innocent I didn't
understand' perspective. All companies have issues once in awhile. I get that
people are especially sensitive with PayPal because they deal with money and
are huge. But come on. If you at all expect to be making more than even a few
hundred dollars a month there's an onus on the 'victim' to read up on what
they're doing and set things up in an appropriate manner. This situation sucks
but it'd be nice if there was a balanced view on it and more helpful dialogue
than 'Never use them! Go to court!'

------
saumil07
Hey Emmanuel - Saumil Mehta here from LocBox, we spoke a few months ago on the
phone.

I would urge you to simply hire an excellent immigration lawyer to figure out
your options w.r.t. the F-1 before you move forward. I have a San Francisco-
based firm that I can refer you to if you like. They are (somewhat) expensive
but they do deliver good results and they are not a big faceless firm - fast,
efficient, get on the phone quickly.

Email me if you want to talk more. FWIW, I dealt with our dysfunctional
immigration system for a decade - once having to forfeit a well-paying
internship after forgetting to file a dumb piece of paperwork - so I do
understand the pain of getting the shaft after busting ass, primarily because
of immigration reasons.

Anyhow, hope this helps.

------
droithomme
The comments here are good.

One point not addressed in the comments is that whether PayPal ever gives you
the money back or not, OP has earned $200,000 in income while in the United
States and he owes the IRS and possibly the state government as well full US
income tax on this amount since he was in the US at the time he did this work.
It doesn't matter what his visa situation is, that has nothing at all to do
with if he owes taxes. He is required to file an income tax return this year,
and pay the taxes, end of story. If he doesn't pay the taxes, he might go to
jail and probably will get a felony record and be permanently banned from
returning to the US after release.

So this is a pretty serious problem and requires a legal team, which
undoubtedly will cost the full amount on deposit to untangle.

He can't just walk away from the situation and let PayPal keep the money,
unless he can get the amount he owes in taxes from a relative and pay it,
which then puts him into debt.

~~~
tluyben2
Instead of all the negative comments about Paypal (I still use them, but I
make sure I withdraw money at least every month, in busy times more often), I
would suggest not going to the US without stuff like this covered and enough
money & insurance to defend yourself. It seems the US is overly aggressive in
most legal matters and doesn't really consider the circumstances too much (I
don't know if this is overall true, but it seems so from everything I have
read). This could ruin a person's life while he only wanted to make some
money; it should be possible to explain that and get some understanding
instead of threats, bills of lawyers, putting his family in debt for paying
his legal fees. He simply didn't know the consequences of what he was doing in
trusting Paypal. That's not his fault and he shouldn't be punished for that by
a crippled, lawyers take all, 'justice' system.

I'm wondering; when I travel abroad for longer times I have law assistance
insurance; it's not expensive and, in his case, it would pay the lawyers for
me (set aside some self risk of around E500 one-off per case); isn't this
normal for people to close before going that long (and thus more risky) to the
US?

------
electic
I think there is a problem here. If you are saying you do not how how you made
it then there might be truly something wrong with your account. It is rare for
any open source project that is a js widget essentially to pull in 200k in six
months. I think there is a bit more information at work here and you are
leaving it out. I think what Paypal did was justified while they investigate
what is going on.

~~~
blasten
When I said, I didn't know how I was referring to the fact that I never
expected that.

I started turn.js as a weekend hack with html5. Then, I showed it on HN and
asked for a Job. Later, I went to some tech company, I didn't get forward for
whatever reasons. Turn.js was initially MIT licensed, and I had literally no
money. However, some people were making 30k or more selling my javascript on
some marketplaces, so I decided to stop and get back my credits. I created a
commercial license, and everything started to change. I never enjoyed my
money, I came to the U.S. because I needed a degree...

------
richardjordan
Contact one of the Silicon Valley law firms that's used to dealing with these
things. Don't go to some cheapo ambulance chasing lawyer who doesn't know what
to do. Even if you cough up $20k in fees to a law firm it's worth doing.
They'll help you set up a company for your product and steer everything
through that to unlock your funds. A lot of advice on here is overly negative
and misinformed. As someone who has had to deal with changes of legal status,
setting up companies as a foreigner, and has dealt with the hell of PayPal
account freezing, I can assure you this is fixable if you work with a
reputable experienced law firm.

------
blantonl
Disclaimer: I have a love hate relationship with Paypal. My organization runs
most of our payment processes through Paypal.

With that said, some questions:

1) How were you able to process 30k/month through Paypal out of the gate
without providing a government ID?

2) How much of the 200K were you able to withdrawal? If any? Do you have any
of it in cash?

3) Did you experience an abnormal amount of chargebacks?

I'd love to hear your thoughts.....

~~~
blasten
33K while I was in Venezuela. I had an old U.S. account, so I wanted to change
it to Venezuela. My PayPal U.S. account had crazy address like: Avenida
GRGRGR, Estado GRGR, United States. They said to me, you can't change the
country, so you should create a new account. I did that, but once I noticed
less features in PayPal Venezuela, I decided to keep the same code in my
website and move the money from the U.S. account to the Venezuela account. I
have 1% or less of chargebacks. My customers are happy.

~~~
PeterisP
You should lawyer up. Having multiple accounts with intentionally fake
adresses and this sum of money may be illegal and punishable according to
money laundering laws; and the business may get you thrown out of USA
permanently due to visa violation - so you need to protect yourself.

------
JoshTriplett
First, before you do anything else, find a reputable payment provider and
switch your payment mechanisms over to that, so you don't keep getting money
sent into a locked account. And with your new payment provider, make sure you
sweep all money you receive out of any account they have access to as soon as
possible, up to whatever limits they have on how much you have to leave around
for chargebacks and similar.

I'd guess that PayPal wants an SSN so they can report your revenue to the IRS
for taxes. If so, they might accept an EIN or TIN instead, which you can
obtain as a business (which you probably want anyway if you plan on doing that
much business).

Alternatively, if you are not actually in the U.S. (you didn't say
explicitly), you may need the local equivalent instead, though good luck
getting PayPal to accept anything that doesn't follow their script.

In any case, the instant you get access to your PayPal account again, get
_all_ the money out of it before they change their mind, which they frequently
do, and switch over to the reputable payment provider you picked in step 1.

Finally, next time you start doing business with a service, even a popular
one, search for negative experiences with that service and take them
seriously. You now know not to use PayPal ever again, but that still leaves
quite a few other services out there to get burned by.

~~~
eli
An International Student is unlikely to have a visa that allows them to start
a company in the US.

~~~
hippich
You do not have to have a visa to start a company in US. Actually, you can
start one without even being in US. Opening bank account for such company - is
what tricky without being physically in US.

~~~
heldrida
He didn't started a company anyway. Selling old clothes and old toys in ebay
doesn't make us a company, does it ?! What if we sold $200k worth in old toys
?! Paypal would take our money anyway...

~~~
tedunangst
No, PayPal would ask for your ssn to make sure you're paying the taxes on the
200k you just made. Yes, if you sell 200k in old toys on eBay, you owe the IRS
a pile of money.

~~~
cunac
why ? I thought you pay tax by residence in most cases. I know when I worked
in US I elected to pay taxes in Canada because I wasn't moving to states
(there is tax treaty)

~~~
tedunangst
I'm assuming you're selling the toys in the US. If you're selling them in
somewhereelseistan, then you probably don't have a US paypal account and none
of this matters. Unless you are using a US paypal account, in which case,
whoopsie, should have sorted that out ahead of time. Don't funnel money
through a country if you're not doing business in that country.

~~~
heldrida
So, I bought new toys and had to pay tax. After some years I decide to sell
it, I need to pay taxes for my old stuff ?!?!

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Yes, but only on the amount you profited.

If you buy $1000 of toys and then sell them on eBay for $200 later, then you
won't owe tax because you had a loss of $800. However, if you were audited,
you _might_ have to prove that the toys originally cost you $1000. If this is
the only unusual item on your return, it's unlikely that an auditor will
bother with it.

However, if you went to, e.g., China and bought $200 of toys and came back to
the US and sold them for $1000, then you will have to pay tax on the $800 of
profit.

------
btown
I've been testing turn.js v3 for personal projects and am seriously
considering buying it for production use in a business; it's the only thing
out there for dynamically-rendered flipbooks. Sorry to hear about your
troubles. At that level of revenue, I'd seriously consider charging using
something like Stripe or Braintree. Your target audience (developers) won't
consider typing a CC number as such a huge inconvenience.

Another note - releasing the 4th release's source code under something like
the Affero GPL (or a similar noncommercial license) could drive adoption of
that version, since many people like to "try before they buy" - and would like
to do so with the most feature-filled version.

~~~
blasten
Thanks for your feedback.

------
Raz0rblade
Maybe make it work using a different bank system and IBAN payments IBAN is
international, you might consider opening a IBAN acount in Venezuela. I'm in
europe and i like Ideal much more then paypall. As "Ideal" is much more
secure. Other options might be bitcoin, or maybe game dollars wich can be
changed to hard valuta like lindendollars ...

------
praz78
Emmanuel, sorry this happened! We can fix it... I sent you an email with my
PayPal email address and my cell phone (call/email if you wanna understand
what might have happened here). I have also sent his thread off to folks
within PP who can help lift/adjust the restriction. Should be sorted in no
time, dont lose hope :)

------
stickydink
You should talk to a lawyer immediately. You should also read up on just what
exactly your visa allows you to do. Assuming you have an F-1 visa, you are
pretty much (with some small exceptions), not allowed to work. This includes
self-employment, freelancing, anything.

What you should have done (and this is still a legal uncertainty) is have the
funds tied to a Venezuelan bank account, your Venezuelan personal and tax
identification. It's a little late for that, however.

Best of luck retrieving your funds. I wouldn't be surprised if you got PayPal
to release them (they are not themselves a government, so just require enough
information to cover their own ass). But expect to be asked some very serious
questions by USCIS. For that reason you don't want a regular lawyer, you main
issue here will be trying to convince the US you weren't breaking your visa
terms.

You need an immigration lawyer.

------
sisk
These sort of things generally revolve around tax reporting. As an
international student, you should be able to get an ITIN or TCN which, I
believe, they also accept.

------
sinak
I highly recommend contacting executiveoffice@paypal.com. I've had many
problems with PayPal in the past, but they were the only group able to make
corrections to my account and release funds.

------
KennethMyers
Former administrator of an international student program, here. If you're an
international student, you can work for the school (at least you could at
mine). We used to give kids literally 1-hour careers sitting at a desk in our
program at minimum wage so they could get social security cards. If you were
to furnish Paypal with a valid ss#, could you then get your money? That's a
lot of money. If your school won't do it, I'd work on tranfering your 1-20 to
another school that will.

------
webjac
Hey Emmanuel, long time no speak.

I would suggest you go to a lawyer as well, I know how hard it is for us
Venezuelans out there. I had a PayPal block once as well and managed to solve,
it takes time and a lot of documentation, however it was not even close to the
ammount you're mentioning here.

There are alternatives like creating your own company and giving the info of
your company to PayPal, that way everything will be as legal as they might
need.

Let me know how it goes, best of luck bro

------
ck2
So much for the kinder, gentler paypal.

[http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/21/technology/paypal-frozen-
fun...](http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/21/technology/paypal-frozen-funds/)

I guess it was all talk.

Never, ever, keep more than $100 in a paypal account (or as much as you are
willing to lose immediately, forever).

Also, if possible, close the bank account your paypal is tied to as they will
draw from it as they see fit without your consent.

~~~
dangrossman
The kinder, gentler PayPal can't ignore the law, the tax code, or serious
risks of criminal activity on its platform. They made a commitment to cut the
red tape in the situations where it didn't make sense, not to throw out the
rulebook and the rule of law. None of what happened here is inconsistent with
their promise.

This situation isn't some innocent trinket seller whose account was frozen
without reason and without recourse. It's a foreign national funneling six
figures across borders through multiple anonymous PayPal accounts even after
being advised, by PayPal directly, to stop doing so. Above and beyond the
breach of contract and ignoring PayPal's guidance to stop using a US account
when he's not a US citizen or even in the US, the activity looks pretty much
exactly like money laundering. On top of that, PayPal has its own legal
obligations to the United States, which it can't fulfill since he's not
providing a tax ID while he's passed the IRS reporting threshold by a factor
of 10.

They closed his US account, which they gave him warning he wasn't supposed to
be using. He hasn't claimed they are keeping any of his money, and they didn't
stonewall him about why it's being closed. Should they have allowed him to
continue operating illegally forever?

My opinion of many people has dimmed as a result of the comments here. They
say you can judge a person's character by how well they treat their waiter at
a restaurant. In the startup world, how fast someone is to trot out a "PayPal
is evil" comment whenever the company is mentioned, no matter the
circumstances, might be a decent analogy.

~~~
ck2
Now we have paypal apologists and defenders.

I guess that's like how no-one can imagine cops as abusive and surely the
person must have done something to deserve it.

I guess we'll have to wait until you are on the wrong side of paypal and then
you can tell yourself you deserved it.

Ask yourself who gets to keep the $200k if he cannot jump through their hoops.
Hint: it's not the government.

------
paypalrbeggars
I faced a similar issue in past having a paypal account in UK. I fixed their
ass as it was my own money and they had to pay me in 6months and then they
closed my account. PAYPAL is actually becoming virtual beggars.

My question is simple as below:

Why do they let us accept payments as much as we want and when we make
withdrawals that time they came to know we have bla bla information missing to
be verified???????

Why they can not simply held/limit/block our paypal accounts on the very first
transaction we receive so we make arrangements or leave using it???????

I have heard many many complaints where people's accounts got held due to
verification pending etc but they all have one COMMON thing they only get
their accounts blocked or held when the do withdrawals. Paypal the fucking
beggars wait till we make money in our accounts by hard working and once we do
withdrawals they make issue's. I believe paypal as a big time FRAUD itself.
They should held our account or do not let us use it unless we have all the
verifications done......... Do comment guy'ssss with LIKES or DISLIKES

------
lectrick
Next time, ask for payment in Bitcoin, and avoid these outdated clumsy
troublesome international payment law troubles in their entirety.

------
heldrida
Why do people keep using Paypal ? Paypal is always taking money from people.
Always! It's interesting what's going to happen here. If he can't get his
money, is Paypal going to have it ? Why is there the assumption this guy is in
the US ? Even if this guy was not legally in the US, this is still his money.

If you are young and don't have a national insurance number yet, ask them to
change your account holder to one of your parents and give them the NI.

I'd basically create a website reporting this issue to the general public and
attach all emails and information you can get from them. Also, I'd change the
payment method in your website to something else LIKE RIGHT NOW! You should
never, ever trust Paypal! Like NEVER!

You should also report this to the media, they will love it! $200K is a lot
hell of money!

~~~
readme
Like, we couldn't use a chunk of that 200K here in the US to fix our bulging
deficit. This is why we have it.

~~~
newbie12
The full $200,000 would cover, literally, 1.8 seconds of federal government
spending.

~~~
readme
There are lots more immigrants that could be paying taxes if we just adjusted
our policies a bit.

~~~
linhares
Never ask why Eduardo Saverin burnt his us passport and went to Singapore.

~~~
readme
Probably because the US is becoming an increasingly hostile place to wealth,
not to mention the fact that we're a police state.

Singapore is an incredibly good place to do business, I'm not shocked,
especially since he wasn't a native born American.

Oh yeah, the real kicker is that you have to renounce citizenship, or you'll
pay federal taxes even while living abroad. (True for dual citizens, too)

That was probably his real reason.

------
jonramz
Emmanuel,

If you get a job offer, such as a 5-10 hour a week job at your college, you
are ALLOWED to apply for a SSN.

This is what I would recommend doing if you are just looking for an SSN. But
do understand that working without permission is a huge no-no.

As far as applying for pre-completion OPT, you could do that... it will take
2-3 months to get approved and you will start using up the 12 months of OPT
you get per degree level. If you choose to go this route, make sure you
actually register your business with your local clerk's office and report it.

One other commmenter mentioned a STEM extension. The one problem with STEM is
that you have to work for an e-verified company.

I hope I was helpful, I am an international student advisor, but I am not your
advisor at your school who I would recommend speaking with.

------
javajosh
Hi Emmanuel, I'm sorry for your troubles. Sounds like Paypal is being
unreasonable - hardly the first time. I would suggest a two-pronged approach:

1\. Find a lawyer who can advise you, definitely based in the US, and almost
certainly based on CA, the home state of PayPal. As you (potentially) have
$200k in cash, you'll have no problem finding excellent representation.
Hopefully you can get away with spending only a few thousand.

2\. Select a different payment processor. You can do this immediately. Stripe
has a good reputation, but there are others as well.

3\. (Optionally) Post your progress. Especially if the lawyer can give you
good advice that is applicable to others in your same situation, you are
potentially saving other innovators many thousands of dollars not to mention
headaches.

Good luck.

~~~
ebf
How is PayPal being unreasonable? A person without a SSN has received $200,000
in their PayPal account. I would be surprised if PayPal didn't freeze that
account.

------
codexon
Is anyone else amazed this guy made 200k with an open source js library like
this?

What am I doing with my life?

------
dexter313
I was always wondering, if PayPal locks a 200k$ account, where does that money
go?

~~~
dangrossman
Typically, to the account holder either (a) after they submit the requested
documentation or (b) after 180 days if their account was terminated in order
to cover future chargebacks. You just don't read that part of the story
because people write about it on day one, not after they understand and have
resolved the problem.

------
StavrosK
Don't you have one in Venezuela? They were more than happy to accept my Greek
id.

------
redact207
Why is PayPal's policy to wait until the account accrues significant funds and
then lock it? If the OP doesn't have an SSN then why wouldn't PayPal block the
account from being registered in the first place?

~~~
stan_rogers
Occasional sales of personal property below a threshold value are not taxable,
nor do they need to be reported to the IRS, etc., nor do _most_ payments, so
creating an account does not necessarily require an SSN/TIN.

------
contentgorilla
<http://www.aaronkellylaw.com/>

Give him a call. He has handled cases for me with PayPal. He comes highly
recommended, just search his name.

He can fix this mess without high expenses.

------
donohoe
Get a taxpayer ID and give them that?

[http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-
Taxpayers/Taxpa...](http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-
Taxpayers/Taxpayer-Identification-Numbers-\(TIN\))

~~~
edouard1234567
That's not a good advice. If you care about your present and future ability to
legally stay and work in the US, you should first consult with an emigration
lawyer since it appears that you're breaking emigration laws and only then try
to get your money back.

------
jc527871
What you could always do is apply for an international business licence that
allows you to have a satellite office in the united states. The only problem
that you would have with that is you would first need to establish a business
in your home country. At that point you would be issued a EID or Tax ID number
for your business which would enable the US federal government to take taxes
out on any profit that you make with in the USA. Hope this helped and I hope
you well in all your future en-devours.

------
marizmelo
Sorry about what happened with you. The only why you could get the money is to
had the PayPal account linked with one account in Venezuela instead of US.
According with your F1 status (and mine) you cannot earn any money in US while
studying, unless you get authorization from school to work out of campus
(CPT), or after conclude your studies (OPT). Even under CPT/OPT you cannot
earn money other from other place than the place you work on. Sorry, I wish
you the best luck.

------
edouard1234567
First, I didn't know about turn.js, just checked it out, it rocks! Second :
You are probably breaking emigration laws. I'd recommend you consult with an
emigration lawyer ASAP.

------
georgek1029
Have you tried?: How to Unlock a PayPal Account
<http://www.ehow.com/how_7657756_unlock-paypal-account.html> via @eHow

Also, other comments have stated that if the lock msg. came via email it could
be a phishing scam. Try to avoid supplying personal info if looks like a
suspicious email.

More: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal#Criticism>

------
shocks
Hi there. Congratulations on your success, I'm very sorry to hear you're
having problems.

The issue seems to be that PayPal are worried you're doing something illegal
and are not going to pay tax. My advice would be to get a lawyer so you can do
everything required to pay tax correctly. In the mean time, try to get some
written confirmation from PayPal that your money will be safe while you are
resolving this issue - that last thing you want is the money 'disappearing'.

------
Porphy
I wont be much help but I can confirm that PayPal does this often and it IS
reported upon frequently. I, personally, have had thousands of dollars held
(just above 20k USD) for 8 months (6 month hold and 2 months of furious phone
calls to get a check cut).

I will never use them again as I believe they stifle innovation and are a harm
to small businesses that are "making it".

PayPal is very much one basket for all your eggs...don't get duped! Get other
baskets!

------
jey
Where does PayPal ask for an SSN? That doesn't sound right.

~~~
dangrossman
As of 2011, all payment processors must report the gross receipts of all
merchants earning over $20,000 in a year (like Emmanuel) on a Form 1099-K.
This form requires a taxpayer identification number. PayPal has to ask for it
to file the form. They've also always asked for it as part of their
underwriting of accounts that trip their fraud detection systems in some way
-- which a sudden jump in payments like this would also do.

------
rafaelm
Maybe they have issue with the fact that you are from Venezuela? I've sen
multiple venezuelan PayPal accounts being blocked because they know sometimes
they are used for getting around CADIVI (currency exchange restrictions).
Maybe your nationality and the fact that you made that much money triggered
some flags.

From a fellow venezuelan, hope you get your money back. And congratulations on
your success even in this unpleasant situation.

~~~
fabiandesimone
Are you in TO?

------
ll6068
INAL either, but I have gone through the ITIN process. If you follow this
route you will need to send notarized documents(birth certs, passports). The
difficulty is that the US will not recognize notarized by any one out side the
US. This was not explicitly stated(a few years ago), after having ITIN
applications rejected 3 times, we took the paperwork to the US consulate, they
processed it and it was all good.

------
therandomguy
If you are on a student visa you are not allowed to get that money even if you
had a SSN. You will be violating the rules of your visa. After you graduate,
find a job and go on H1-B you still can't earn any money outside that job. No
paypal, not adsense, no stripe. Eventually if you decide to apply for a green
card these things will come up and you will have to leave the country.

------
anovikov
With any money transfer/payment service, DON'T keep money on it. Withdraw to
cash every week, and spend or keep in a bank vault. I normally don't even put
real mail address anywhere and ask different people to do ATM withdrawals. I
am not doing anything criminal at all, but WHO KNOWS? It's always better to be
protected especially when it doesn't cost me anything.

------
eof
Find an american friend with a SSN? I am not sure this would really work, but
it's definitely worth a shot. Of course your friend will have to count it as
income; but honestly this will probably be a lot cheaper than hiring a lawyer
if it works. I don't really see a downside to trying this method; since you
can't really lose the money that's already gone.

~~~
InclinedPlane
The downside is that it then starts to look even more like fraud or money
laundering and possible legal action, in addition to the freezing of the
account, happens.

This is the worst advice in this entire thread. The money isn't gone, it's
just frozen. It can get unfrozen quite easily provided that Emmanuel is smart
and makes sure to get a good lawyer who can walk him through all of the
necessary steps to get his business set up correctly.

------
drucken
Get any job (#), including part-time and temp jobs, and you instantly get a US
social security number.

That said, Paypal are acting like dicks, as usual, since you do NOT need an
SSN to open ordinary bank accounts in the US.

(#) You may need written permission from your school to work.

Source: <http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10181.html>

------
fastspring
Perhaps FastSpring would be a good fit for you. Any country the US isn't
banned from doing business with is applicable. Users pay in various global
currencies and the order pages are translated. I'm the CEO. Funny that you
mention Venezuela, my wife just got a grant to do art history research there
so I may be visiting soon.

------
heifetz
I would get a lawyer in the US. They might think that you're laundering money,
until you can prove your id.

------
mikecane
See what this poor guy is going through? There are a lot of bright people
here. Sounds like a start-up opportunity for someone. He can't be the only
person who winds up in this situation. Solving this could open the door for
others who have the skills to make money like he did.

------
purephase
This really sucks. PayPal is terrible for doing stuff like this, and I really
feel for you. While I don't have any specific suggestions for dealing with
PayPal, maybe you could setup a Crowdtilt or similar fundraising opportunity
and link it on your site?

I love turnjs btw. Very slick tool.

------
gamblor956
You need an ITIN, which is the equivalent of an SSN but for non-US taxpayers
receiving payments from US sources.

[http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/Individual-Taxpayer-
Identific...](http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/Individual-Taxpayer-
Identification-Number-%28ITIN%29)

------
sturmeh
You'll get your money in a few weeks, PayPal are just enjoying the interest
for now.

------
icedog
I'm flabbergasted by how 200k can be reached within six months with that
product.

~~~
ghshephard
I'm unclear as to whether you mean "Flabbergasted" that it's worth more, or
flabbergasted that it's a good amount?

If you mean "worth more" - well, maybe, but at the same time, you can only
make as much as the market will yield.

If you mean "worth less" - $200K over six months is OK, but not great if you
realize that there will be likely six month period (one year periods?) where
revenue will be very low.

It's very boom/bust, and the $200K made here needs to go a long, long way. All
in all, you would probably (more than 50% of the time) make more money
providing desktop support than trying to sell software (or games) as an
independent entrepreneur.

Of course, some times, you hit it big, and it makes all the sweat and toil
worthwhile.

------
centdev
PayPal is not as crooked as people say they are. Just start a company with
someone in he US. Payments go,to their company and they pay you. Assuming its
a legit business "don't know how I made" 200k doesnt sound legit.

~~~
linhares
You realize how much freedom people like you take from regular people? PayPal
makes the Sopranos look kind and caring, as do he TBTF banks.

"Doesn't sound legit".... I hope you're caught into the other side of
"inverted totalitarianism" and just maybe you might be able to see what the
mirror has to show you.

------
pbreit
Do you or your parents have bank accounts in the US or in your home country? I
would suggest working with PayPal to switch your account to your original
country and seeing if you can then get the funds withdrawn.

~~~
rafaelm
Unfortunately we are not allowed to have dollars in Venezuela. Look CADIVI up
in Wikipedia

~~~
pbreit
PayPal is multi-currency so perhaps it's possible to convert to a currency
that will work.

I guess the point is, moving money around is not that easy, country borders
make it significantly more difficult, PayPal freezes typically make sense
(such as in this case) but PayPal is made up of people, many of whom might be
willing and able to help you out.

------
logn
You can get a Taxpayer Id Number in about 10 minutes from the IRS with
basically no questions asked (they want to make it easy to pay taxes, even for
sketchy situations). The TIN might be a substitute for SSN.

------
rgovind
Sorry to hear your situation.

For others: Assuming this problem is solved, in future, can an international
student collect payments in his home currency? Will US govt allow full time
students to do side businesses?

------
jonathanmarcus
You should contact David Marcus, Paypal's relatively new CEO. At least one
other HN thread shows his willingness to help: <http://ndy.gd/JJgB>

------
rwanghacker
I don't know why people always use Paypal when it's had a history of screwing
people over.

Use Google checkout for merchants, I've used it and it's really really easy to
setup as well as safe.

~~~
ahoyhere
Google Checkout closed our account because of suspicious attempted purchases
of our JavaScript ebook, and kept our money.

So… nope.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
How did they keep your money? Was it just a small amount that you couldn't be
bothered with so you let them have it? (going by how well your products seem
to be doing that's unlikely)

Otherwise I can't see any legal way that they (or PayPal for that matter)
would be able to keep anything beyond their transaction fees.

~~~
ahoyhere
Simple: they close the account without appeal and there is no way to contact a
human.

[http://slash7.com/articles/2009/3/26/google-is-evil-worse-
th...](http://slash7.com/articles/2009/3/26/google-is-evil-worse-than-paypal-
don-t-use-google-checkout-for-your-business)

------
donniezazen
If you go to school here in US, you are allowed to work on-campus and that
will make you eligible for a SSN. Check with your international center.

------
twanlass
Emmanuel,

I can't help you get back the money that PayPal has frozen, but I can help you
keep selling it _and_ ensure you keep what's yours.

Email me - tyler [at] simplegoods.co

------
rodyce
You can get a social security number with you F1 or J1 visa.... I just did
when I got my MSc. For example, if you work as a T.A. or R.A. you get a SSN.

Good Luck!

~~~
PeterisP
If you get a SSN on a F1 visa, you are allowed to work as a T.A. for a limited
number of hours - but as soon as full-time commercial job or 200k of business
income is reported to that SSN, your visa turns into a ticket back home.

------
WorldOfHacker
Call Paypal, Don't be stupid to email them, these are useless, when big money
is involved. Call them, Talk to them, they will help you out.

------
cjbprime
Sad to hear this, I've used and appreciated turn.js. Hopefully the tax
situation works itself out as other commenters have described.

------
ForFreedom
Next time always remember to withdraw your earnings no matter how small the
amount, once its in an account other than your bank.

------
NicoJuicy
I once saw a topic where the new CEO requested that people with problems
contact him in person.

I thought it was david@paypal.com, i'm not sure.

------
sidcool
Good luck buddy. I can only hope you get all the necessary help. That's
because I am not in any position to help you.

------
bambax
It seems turnjs.com is still using PayPal... At this point you should switch
to another provider...

------
iapi
Get a TIN its an alternative to SSN for non-us citizen who are doing business
with United States

------
pknerd
Wish these companies could make Terms and Conditions _Human Readable_

------
rikacomet
Hi, I'm not a expert on US laws, but given how it mostly works, yeah you are
in the wrong, if they say so. But all is not lost I suppose.

You must find a lawyer in any case, a good one! though there is no guarantee
it will work, but if something would work, it would be this or a clear
provision/flaw you may find on your own (I take it that you won't be able to)

Three legal courses might work on broader terms, leave the actual litigation
to the lawyer.

1\. The lawyer may prove that someone, who is a US citizen, a family member
preferably, or a family friend, is the real owner of the product, and you mis-
stated your facts. (meaning, you didn't say under oath, that the said
service/product was your and yours ALONE)

The lawyer would take his cut in all cases, and if anything, you should give
your family member a cut as well, in this case. Its better than nothing out of
200k$!

2\. You may establish a US company, preferably in a state where tax is low and
norms are lax, based on strong advice of your lawyer, with preferably the same
name as your product. The lawyer in this case would prove (or try to) that the
company would receive the money (being a separate legal identity), and a
friend of yours who is a US citizen, would be the trustee of the company.

Similarly to above, lawyer will get his cut, your friend would do as well
(unless he is the nicest guy on the planet, if he does not take any money, do
PM about it on reddit@rikacomet).

3\. The lawyer, may establish, that there was an error in your understanding
of the US laws (which is clearly so), and since paypal allows for you to be a
member of any country, you shall recieve it upon changing the credentials of
yours, to your native one's. The lawyer, shall argue, that the payment made by
your customers, would hold true, despite you changing ONLY your address
details.

Alternatively, if all your payments were made by credit card (which might be
the case), you may contact, all your customers, to initiate a cash back (where
they will legally call back money from their bank, after stating that a huge
flaw was made, and the original deal holds untrue) the bank would know its way
with paypal, so no worries there, but what you need to worry about is bank
making a case against you. So you would need a lawyer again over here.

Disclaimer: Always, talk to a professional lawyer about legal matters, mine is
only mildly suggestive in nature based on laws existing in my country.

NOTE: Please be very careful, while finding a good lawyer, while you do, make
sure to make it clear to him, that the payment, would be only a cut out of the
200k in question here, and not out of your pocket.

Take this on a legal document in WRITING, with his signature and official
stamp heads, in presence of 2-4 witnesses etc. You really don't want to lose
200k, and then also pay a American lawyer out of your pocket!

------
linuxhansl
It boggles my mind how PayPal can again and again get away with this.

The ability of PayPal to be a bank and yet avoid being one legally is
interesting. If you hold somebody else's money you _are_ a bank, whether you
call yourself that way or not.

~~~
Qantourisc
Been thinking the same thing for a while.

We even adjusted the accounting software to tread PayPal as if it was a bank
... The amount of accounting time on PayPal went down. Because it's well ... a
bank, without the legal obligations :( and that means we are screwed.

~~~
linhares
For digital goods you use bitcoin, always and everywhere. please fix this as
soon as your next release, God what are you thinking? The USSA has become a
beacon of INVERTED TOTALITARIANISM. google that.

------
unreal37
Apply for a TIN. That's equivalent to a SSN for tax purposes.

------
darkhorn
Why you didn't pull your money from PayPal once every week?

~~~
blasten
Good question.

------
plumeria
After you get your money back, dish Paypal and use Stripe.

------
judegomila
This happened to me back in 2007, contact me for tactics.

------
puppetmaster3
Ha ha. Not PayPal Fault! Your fault for using them.

------
dexter313
Were you lying about being an american student?

~~~
blasten
No, I had an old U.S. account and I wasn't able to change the country. I
created a venezuelan account later on, but I saw that the U.S. account
provided some features, so I stupidly thought that was ok to then transfer the
money to the Venezuelan account. I started to sell licenses while I was
outside the U.S.

~~~
heldrida
Exact same issue here! I moved to England and there's no way I can change my
Country. So, my address is correct but not the Country! Paypal just sucks
really!

I just wonder why don't you Emmanuel provide more information.

------
stch2
Sorry, they stole your money. This is a big advantage of theirs, they aren't
regulated like a bank so they have no trouble taking money from marginalized
people.

~~~
dangrossman
Why does someone always write this? PayPal is regulated to exactly the same
degree a merchant account from a bank is. Their contracts are essentially
identical, mirroring PayPal's own agreements with the banks that underwrite
their accounts (Wells Fargo and JP Morgan Chase). Banks suspend merchant
accounts and freeze their money for the same reasons and for the same periods
of time, and no regulation stops them from doing so. In many countries, PayPal
is considered a bank. In the US, it is licensed and regulated as a money
transmitter in all 50 states.

~~~
mrkris
I don't recall banks freezing your assets for 6+ months to make sure your
business is legit.

~~~
dangrossman
I do, since it happened to me 9 years ago when I was as naive about the
industry as you. First National Bank of Omaha, the largest privately held bank
with $17bn in assets, if you're curious. The several thousand dollars of
customer payments they had not yet disbursed was held for exactly 180 days
before they released it to me.

Do you not recall because you haven't read your own agreement, or because you
haven't actually opened a merchant account with a bank before? You don't have
to take my word. Type ["merchant account agreement" 180] into Google to see
some 40,000 examples of bank contracts with that same hold period written into
them.

------
jfccohen
Use WePay.com

------
readme
Lawyer up. This is ridiculous.

------
bilyy
get a lawyer, get an accountant, get incorporated.

------
vishalzone2002
i did suggest you ask this question at Quora too

------
neo0oen
i've no idea. But wish u good luck

------
volandovengo
Paypal are bastards, as simple as that.

------
JohnHaugeland
So, I'm going to hold an antithetical position here, because I've been on the
other side of this, but rather than panicking and screaming "villain," I took
the time to understand what was going on, and I got a reversal. I think you
can too, but you'll need to discard the common contempt for PayPal and
consider that they might actually have a reason for what they're doing.

.

"PayPal has closed my account because I don’t have a social security number.
It seems like I don’t qualify for one because I’m just “an international
student” from Venezuela."

I just don't believe this one bit. People from Venezuela do use PayPal quite a
bit.

More likely what this is actually about is that you haven't done the minimum
to do business in America, which PayPal told you up front that they expected
you to do.

They're not actually _able_ to do business with you, because you haven't taken
the correct steps yet. If you say "oh my god they're punishing me for being
from the wrong country," you're screwed.

But if you figure out the problem, you can fix it.

Here's the thing. In America, like in Venezuela and most of the rest of the
world, you're expected to pay taxes on money transfer. It's an income stream.

The social security number is how Americans track these things in their
private lives. Sure, you won't get one because you're not American, but there
are foreign equivalents, and they're cheap. We _do_ want to do business with
you; you just have to be clean.

PayPal _can't_ give you your money until you do what the US Government
requires. It would be illegal. It would make them into a criminal money
laundering organization.

I'm not really sure; I'm no tax attorney. But, I think what you want is an
ITIN - an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number. They are free, they're
available online, and they only take a couple weeks to get.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Taxpayer_Identificat...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Taxpayer_Identification_Number)

[http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-
Taxpayers/Taxpa...](http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-
Taxpayers/Taxpayer-Identification-Numbers-%28TIN%29)

[http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-
Taxpayers/Obtai...](http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-
Taxpayers/Obtaining-an-ITIN-from-Abroad)

It's very common in the tech community for people to hear "PayPal shut off an
account? They're the devil!" But in reality, this is how America keeps its
money from flowing to criminal organizations, and PayPal's hands are tied
here.

If you took the time to talk to them, and said "listen, I didn't know there
was a problem, can you help me understand what steps I need to take to get
this turned around," it's very likely they'll actually help you, like they
helped me.

The toxic Redditor behavior is getting out of control. Not every time a large
company does something that seems punitive is it actually in the wrong, and in
this situation, they're really just following the law. That's expected. That's
_correct_.

Also, to put things in perspective, you seem to be frustrated that you have to
wait six months to receive five years of an average American's salary. I mean,
I don't think this is actually as bad as you're making it out to be, unless
you've tied your entire life to taking money from the internet, and can't
survive without it.

I think maybe you should consider the possibility of asking some of your users
for a little spare cash through some crowdfunding site (full disclosure: I
work for a crowdfunding site, which is why I'm not naming options right now,
because it would be unethical.)

And then maybe just try to work with PayPal to fix the problem, instead of
begging the internet to try to hammer-lock PayPal into breaking the law for
you, because no matter how hard you try, that is never, ever going to work.

Try setting up a Google Voice account, and calling them on the phone. If they
can hear your fear in your voice, the human will to do good and help will come
out, and they will put in effort to assist. I promise. That's just how people
work.

Also consider getting in contact with the American tax authority, the IRS.
It's pretty common for people to hate and fear them, but they're actually
wonderful people; their big job is to prevent rich people from cheating the
system, and to support poor people, and your story is very sympathetic.
Someone from the IRS will, if you just ask, put in hours and hours to try to
help you, for free. That's what they do for a living.

You can choose to assume everyone's evil and out to get you, or you can choose
to assume that you accidentally didn't get the rules right, and that fixing
that could change things.

Which one of those assumptions you make will very significantly change the
outcome you get.

There is a reason that people who expect good things from other people
generally do well in life. They're able to ask for, and receive, more help.
Bad things are fixed more reliably. Et cetera.

Just make a human appeal. "I didn't know I screwed up. I still don't know how.
I earned this money legitimately, and I need it. Can you help me learn what I
did wrong, so that I can fix it?"

Give them a chance to be good - maybe even a couple - and they will be good.

PayPal is not the evil faceless demon they're made out to be. International
payments are complicated, and people from other countries often get domestic
law wrong.

But I really don't think they want to cheat you; after all, they make their
money by helping you do more business. Shutting you off doesn't do them any
good.

Please consider approaching this like you might have made a mistake, because
if it's you, and not them, then fixing it and changing this is entirely inside
your power. Taking responsibility means acquiring power. Pointing fingers
weakens you.

I hope the best for your situation. Please be safe.

------
camus
question , why the hell would you let 200k sitting on a paypal accound for 6
months ? i dont understand. At least invest that money in obligations, life
insurance or something ... even with 3/4% returns it is worth it, you could
almost live without working in Venezuela ...

------
rorrr
Sue.

------
Mattbunner
wow, that's crazy? Holy crap

------
donnfelker
Use PayPal - get screwed. Rinse, wash, repeat.

~~~
dangrossman
If you open US payment processing accounts without US citizenship or a Visa
that allows it, take 6 figures in payments while out of the country, then try
to move it into an anonymous payment account across international borders,
someone's going to investigate it. The tax code ensures that investigation
begins within a year, since that kind of money moving has to be reported on a
1099-K. That's not PayPal screwing anyone, Donn.

~~~
linhares
Use bitcoin for anything that's not tied up in an inverted totalitarian
regime.

And Dan, look up, check out for the drones.

------
sharemywin
Do you have a cousin in Nigeria?

