
If the Point of Capitalism Is to Escape Capitalism, Then Why Capitalism? - jonballant
https://eand.co/if-the-point-of-capitalism-is-to-escape-capitalism-then-whats-the-point-of-capitalism-bedd1b2447d
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addicted
Capitalism (especially the free market kind) has been most successful when it
has been used as a pragmatic tool, instead of a dogmatic philosophy.

So basically, my answer to "Why Capitalism" is that "it works".

Capitalism cannot (rather, should not) provide you with a set of ideals or
principles. Capitalism is a tool to achieve those set of ideals or principles,
and should be used where appropriate in order to achieve those ideals and
principles.

The ideals and principles have to come from elsewhere.

Elon Musk and Bezos believe in the principle of a backup planet, so they
leverage capitalism to reach Mars. Bill Gates believes in book recommendations
and charity, so he leverages it for that purpose. Someone who is closer to an
employee believes in a building a good life for themselves and their family,
and they use capitalism for that.

The article is like asking "What's the point of a hammer when once you've used
it to hang a portrait you put it away?"

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bentona
The conflation of slavery with capitalism is too easy a target, so I'll
address a highlight:

"what’s striking about capitalism is that we’re all trying to escape it — even
most of the capitalists — because it makes us so miserable, mean, and
foolish."

Philanthropy is not "escaping" capitalism. Going to mars is not "escaping"
capitalism. Achieving financial independence is not "escaping" capitalism.
These are all choices that are enabled via the autonomy that capitalism
grants. Yes, some people are consumed solely by the pursuit of money, but
capitalism is about _choice_ , not money.

Many choose to exercise their capitalism-granted autonomy by giving things to
others. There is absolutely nothing contradictory about charity in a purely
capitalistic system, and is in fact, given that charity by definition is
voluntary, only possible sans coercion.

~~~
jraph
Charity makes sense in a capitalistic world, because some people get the
"choice" of being poor in it.

~~~
sillyquiet
in contrast to government-owns-the-means-of-production socialist systems,
where nobody gets the choice to not be poor.

~~~
jraph
A worse system does not make another one better.

~~~
lrdd
Does the lack of any better solution justify it?

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ramblerman
The premise is a really strange one to set up. I think he tries to motivate it
somewhat later on in the article:

> You can see it in stark, comic terms. What are Bezos and Musk doing? Trying
> to flee to Mars. What’s Gates doing? Recommending you books to read, and
> trying to save the world with charity. LOL — how ironic. These are different
> forms of freedom from capitalism

I would argue, that especially in case of Musk and Bezos capitalism is serving
it's purpose. Some of us think space exploration makes sense, others would
rather buy a yacht, help the third world, or just put it in a bank.

Musk or Bezos are not 'fleeing', they are diverting their own resources and
that of shareholders into the goal of reaching, and colonizing Mars.

Something a government might never bother with.

~~~
astanway
> Something a government might never bother with.

Maybe because colonizing Mars is a massive waste of resources that could be
better spent fixing the planet we already live on? Or do you think the
solution to scarcity is to have billionaires play with their space toys?

~~~
donclark
Point taken. However, I do like the idea of creating a second option, while
trying to fix the old version. And I think we are doing just that.

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HissingMachine
So this is what you write if you have zero understanding about the subject you
are about to write?

The author gleefully mixes things together that have no connection and asserts
that capitalism is a social system, when it's merely an economic and more
importantly resource management system. Capitalism can't fix things that are
outside of it's scope, and this is where most leftist intellectuals fail in
their critique, capitalism can't fix abortion rights or same-sex marriage,
because they are not economic or resource problems, they are social ones that
will have to be addressed with a social system not an economic one. Capitalism
might tell you how much resources it takes to do these things, but it can't
take a stand on any of these things, because it has no connection to the
issue.

Managing resources will always be handled by the system that is most optimized
and efficient in a natural world, capitalism, as opposed to feudalism is more
efficient in allocating resources, feudalism also had a social component where
it differed from capitalism since it has no social dimension. What comes to
tribalism, that is just purely a social system with nothing to do with economy
and resource management.

Good luck to the author on his quest to mix things up and try to figure a
solution to something that doesn't match reality.

------
DanielBMarkham
There are a lot of other good points here. People bang on capitalism because
it's easy -- and trendy.

One thing that most conversations miss is that capitalism isn't some optional
thing you pick up and do like yoga.

Wiki defines capitalism as "an economic system based on private ownership of
the means of production and their operation for profit."

So what does "own" mean? How about "production" We can substitute in stuff
that mostly works for us, but it falls apart. And it falls apart when try to
remove capitalism.

Let's transfer everything to the state, all ownership. What happens? Money
becomes useless and people hoard political capital. You gain a bunch of
political support and you can build a new factory. You give out your political
support to others so that they can "invest" it in other things.

You start collecting coins, or stamps. Suddenly you're trading your stamps
with another guy for his political support for getting a new stoplight.

Capitalism isn't going anywhere. You can't kill it. The only thing you can do
is acknowledge it and try to learn how to live with it. It will exist no
matter what kind of social or government structure you want to implement.
Always has, always will.

This is an important point because people who study capitalism are studying
_the way things are_ , ie existing systems. People who study other systems are
studying _the way things might be_. Whatever the other system, there's always
capitalism in there.

I'm not making a value judgment one way or another. Simply pointing out that
there are two entirely different kinds of knowledge being discussed.

~~~
aequitas
"You start collecting coins, or stamps. Suddenly you're trading your stamps
with another guy for his political support for getting a new stoplight."

If there is no ownership there is no concept of 'your collection' or trading
for that matter. There are stamps on a shelf in a room in a house you
currently locate yourself. As there is no concept of ownership, there is no
concept of stealing. The other guy can just 'take' your stamps. As they don't
belong to you.

I do agree that capitalism is not something optional. But that is because the
fundamental traits of ownership are ingrained in our culture and biology as
people. We evolved to where we are now because of this. We didn't decide on
capitalism. It is more an explanation and reasoning about our current society.
Other societal structures like ant colonies or 'primitive' humans might be
different. But you don't see them because they are not part of the global
economy bubble and frankly they don't see us or care about the system we use
to govern ourselves. They just live.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
You own your opinions and decisions, right? Can those be removed from you?
Your influence in the community?

You're correct on the stamps issue. I broadened the scope a bit just to drive
the point home in a reasonable amount of text. If you own no physical objects,
you can't accumulate or barter them.

But that doesn't mean you don't own anything. Or that scarcity goes anywhere.
Or that you and other people can't pool/coordinate these non-tangible things
you control to create and influence real, live, physical things. It's just
easier to reason about when it's stamps. That's all. The beauty of money was
that it allowed all of that pooling and coordination to happen in the
abstract.

------
Apocryphon
Is China the counterpoint?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18084970](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18084970)

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vbuwivbiu
what's more, as was pointed-out on a recent episode of the EconTalk podcast,
although our society as a whole is capitalist, internally almost all
corporations are run as communist dictatorships

~~~
eximius
Heh,that's kind of funny. Though, the methods of enforcement don't translate
well outside a company. A company either ostracizes you or kills you off,
depending how you want to translate 'firing' outside of a company.

------
TangoTrotFox
The point of capitalism is freedom -- not from capitalism, but freedom -
period.

In a capitalist society you are, in general, free to do whatever you want. If
what you're doing is something that society deems sufficiently valuable then
you tend to be able to make a living doing just that, even if it's something
nobody would have ever thought to have made a living doing before. Imagine you
hate capitalism. If enough people agree with you you're free to make a living
writing and talking all about the evils of capitalism, selling your books,
articles, Che t-shirts, and so on. Imagine you think communism is the best
economic system. In a capitalist society you're free to buy up thousands of
acres of land, invite some people onto your land, and then try to start your
communist utopia.

By contrast in other economic systems, what you can or can't do tends to be
decided by outside forces and the government in particular. No government is
ever going to pay you to speak negatively of their system of governance. And
the notion of buying thousands of acres of land to start a capitalist utopia
would just be nonsensical in e.g. a communistic society. Your freedom is
greatly restricted, and society is directed not by the people within that
society but by an elite few -- you end up with the same problems as
capitalism, but with none of the benefits. And this reality is almost
certainly why all social economic systems seem to converge towards
authoritarianism and failure to produce. People _want_ to be the masters of
their own destiny. Capitalism isn't perfect there, but it's certainly far
better than any alternative.

~~~
nerdponx
Please don't conflate capitalism with libertarianism. Only makes a discussion
more confused.

------
chmielewski
So much talk about Capitalism, about the good old days (capitalism in the US
is a very pre-1980's thing) or the current state of capitalism and where it's
going -- when what we actually experience and take part in today is
Corporatism. I don't see a million articles about rampant corporatism... or
even a handful... but this thought that capitalism is around and is how we as
a nation live our lives is everywhere.

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bmmayer1
"what’s striking about capitalism is that we’re all trying to escape it — even
most of the capitalists — because it makes us so miserable, mean, and
foolish."

No, capitalism makes us happy, nice, and smart. More importantly, capitalism
makes us rich.

It's really easy to hate on capitalism because everything that's wrong in your
life can be reasonably explained away with "if we didn't have capitalism this
wouldn't be a problem." But the fact us, most of the things that capitalism
does for you (the average reader of HN who most likely lives in a capitalist
country) are invisible. You don't realize how much capitalism is responsible
for everything in your life that _isn 't_ making you miserable. Things like:

\- Affordable food from all over the world available in all varieties in all
seasons, fresh and uncontaminated by toxins or spoilage \- Abundant, cheap
energy that lowers the cost of everything from raising children to acquiring
knowledge to healthcare (not to mention travel and leisure) \- Access to
aspirin, toothbrushes, toilet paper, shaving cream, dental floss, tissues,
towels, soap, and thousands of other daily necessities that allow us to live
more hygienic and healthier lives \- Higher level education (which would not
be possible without a basic level of societal comfort) which unlocks advances
in science, mathematics, medicine, economics and other areas that improve the
human condition \- Riches and wealth available to a wider net of people that
have ever had it before, in a way that doesn't deprive or prevent more people
from acquiring more wealth...this has of course downstream effects like
reducing crime and increasing camaraderie and mutual respect (you gain more
from trading with a rival than fighting with them and trying to take their
resources)

Take away capitalism and what do you get? Well, you can easily visit Cuba or
Venezuela right now to find out. You get:

\- Kids with no shoes \- Crumbling infrastructure \- 'Free' healthcare with no
aspirin \- Violent revolution or suppression of revolutionary activity \- A
population of greedy individuals and families doing everything they can to
protect their own resources and take others' (this isn't an indictment of
these people, this is exactly what humans need to do when their livelihood is
threatened) \- People with no education because they're spending all their
time scrambling to survive

If you want people who are _really_ "miserable, mean, and foolish", take away
capitalism and that's exactly what you'll get.

------
aryehof
The point of capitalism isnt to escape it, it is instead an idealogy that has
at its core the private ownership of capital - the means of production - where
such production is rewarded by profit.

Nearly all countries today embrace it.

I think it important to not conflate it with the issues it can encourage if
uncontrolled: greed, inequality, the abuse of labor, natural resources and the
environment, unsafe products and working conditions, and the unavailability of
essential services and goods where unprofitable.

------
TomMarius
IMHO the premise is wrong. The capitalist isn't trying to gain freedom from
capitalism, but from market.

~~~
ArekDymalski
I'd rather say that (for at least some of) the capitalists' the goal is
control/dominate the market not escape it.

Anyway, the whole article is full of wrong/weird premises, ie. talking to
Alexa = talking to capitalism; mission to Mars = escape from the capitalism,
not apotheosis of it etc.

~~~
TomMarius
I said escape because at least I personally understand the target to be to
free myself from any influence the market has on me.

------
nerdponx
Capitalism is not a system of ideas, nor is it a system that anyone chooses.
It is not designed, voted on, decreed, or managed. It has no governing
authority, no standards organization. It has no dogma, creed, commandments, or
constitution.

Capitalism is the natural order of things within human societies above a
certain size and complexity level. It's more like a force of nature than
anything else. To establish any system _other_ than capitalism takes great
effort.

What we can do is regulate it. It might be impossible to prevent corruption
entirely in government. But to criticize capitalism in its contemporary
manifestation is to criticize blatant regulatory capture, corruption, and
demagoguery. Those phenomena are themselves manifestations of capitalism, and
it is telling that they arise in capitalist and non-capitalist societies
alike.

We need to develop new and better systems for keeping people honest and for
keeping institutions fair. Without this development, human nature, not the
distribution of capital ownership, remains the greatest threat to humanity.

Since I've been downvoted, I might as well clarify: this article exemplifies
what I'm talking about!

First the author writes:

 _What is [the slave owner] really after? He’s trying to earn is freedom from
labour — not having to do work, hence the slaves. He’s also trying to win
freedom from exploitation — he holds the whip, but is above the moral law. And
from control, punishment, hierarchy — he has no boss to answer to._

That's perfectly reasonable! Note that capitalism has nothing to do with this.
People have always sought this. It might as well be part of Maslow's hierarchy
of needs.

But then they try to summarize themselves:

"Even the capitalist is really just trying win back his freedom from
capitalism"

I guess that's true in this particular case, because for this particular
capitalist the cause of their non-freedom is capitalism. But is it true in
general? Absolutely not! Freedom from exploitation and the desire for control
are universal human desires that extend beyond any particular economic system.

Once the false equivalence is broken, the article kinda stops making sense.

~~~
sharemywin
This got me to thinking about the minimum things need for capitalism.

0\. some agreement to not use violence to take value

1\. some way to Exchange Value

2\. ways to Store Value

3\. ways to Lend Value

~~~
nerdponx
Is lending a necessary condition, or a corollary?

~~~
sharemywin
true.

------
corodra
Hold up. I think everyone is getting caught up on the idea of "freedom".
Capitalism does not grant you any shred of personal freedom from the bottom of
the chain to the tippy-top. The higher you get, the less personal freedom you
have. Financial freedom, yea, but not Enlightenment era freedom. Being a titan
in business has to be a fucking nightmare. Your responsibilities are
astronomical. Everyone wants to slit your throat for your crown at the top.
Back stabbers. Gold diggers. Cheats. Con artists. And just trying to be
relevant and competitive. Oh, and phone calls. I can imagine anyone in the top
100 of forbes, that actually runs a business, does not get a decent night
sleep most nights.

And I'm a capitalist myself. I'm happy with being a moderate fish in a small
pond. Because more than this, fuck it, I'm going to go live in the woods and
grow a beard that can be used as an axe to chop trees. But that means I'm a
little tad-pole when I do that. That, I'm not really willing to go back to.

You're trying to be the biggest fish in the pond, in the biggest pond you can
find. Biggest gorilla. Fiercest lion. Whatever your analogy. You get the
point. Sure, folks tap-out and cash out, then become poets, sail around the
world, tell people how they should live their lives, etc. Not that I blame
them. The burnout being on their level...

Bit of a rant. Might as well follow it up with a bit more ranting.

I'm tired of people, like the dude in the article, "Well, Marx said...". Who
the fuck cares? Let's face a fact of the matter. His ideas of how an economy
should function never worked. Soviet Union? Venezuela? China abandoned it with
Nixon's blessing. It's been tested time and time again on different sides of
the planet. His ideas of how social structures should work has consistently
resulted in strangling police states and high levels of corruption. NKVD?
Stasi? China in general? Anyone sucking the sickle of communism isn't exactly
going to win a humanitarian or economic award anytime soon. What's the
practical definition of stupid? Seriously, wtf. Sure, communism may work in
small doses, like I've heard that some <30 people communes have happy people
in them. But the same is said about people who got suckered into cults too.

Why are people still stuck on a guy who was proven wrong many times? Not just
a little wrong. But people have been slaughtered or starved to death in his
teaching. In the millions. And yes, other teachings have done the same. I'm
positive someone is going to say with avocado on their breath, "Yea, you just
described religion too". Great. Stalin is now above Ghandi and Borlaug because
of your religion comment. Assholes, of all shapes, colors and sizes, get
thrown into the same shithole. Regardless who else is in their too.

I'm angry...

Phone typing, so probably typos and I don't feel like rereading this. Take as
you will. Go find 2 cents in a parking lot somewhere.

------
qubax
The point of capitalism is to consolidate power around capital rather than a
monarch, political party, government, nation or voting group. It's why
capitalism can work in a democracy (US), communism (China) or monarchy
(british empire). The point of capitalism isn't to escape it. Social or
corporate advancement isn't capitalism. It's just everyday life. No more than
a peasant in the soviet union progressing up the state ladder is communism.
Capitalism is about who really runs things and who gets to have real power. In
monarchy, it's obviously the king or queen. In communism, it's the politburo.
In a military dictatorship, it's the general. In capitalism, it's the capital
( or those who control it ).

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anm89
If the point of strawmans is to escape strawmans, then why strawmans?

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polyphonic01
Capitalism is not a choice.

Given the nature of the human mind and the material state of the world, the
equilibrium state of human economies is capitalism.

To see what I mean, consider any complex system. There will be certain
patterns and processes that naturally unfold in that system, while other
patterns and processes do not manifest without external energy. The reason is
because the former states are closer to the equilibrium state of the system
while the latter are comparatively farther away.

Capitalism is like an equilibrium state, and all attempts to control
capitalism require external energy. What is a concrete example of this?

Regulation has a tendency to be repealed if the public or government loses
sight of why the regulation was passed in the first place. On the other hand,
companies usually want regulations repealed by default. This tension between
opposing forces must resolve itself, and it does in favor of companies because
not only are they constantly applying pressure against regulations, but the
public is often allured by the fact that many regulations lower potential
levels of economic growth. Therefore it's more likely than not that
regulations be repealed in the long run.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
This seems like a ridiculous assertion considering that humanity predates
capitalism by about a hundred thousand years and civilization predates
capitalism by about five thousand years.

~~~
polyphonic01
"Given the nature of the human mind and the material state of the world"

The material state of the world my friend.

