
How did classical music in movies and TV become synonymous with villainy? - longdefeat
https://theamericanscholar.org/the-sound-of-evil/#.XIuVuRNKjOS
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crazygringo
> _It was not always this way. Once, classical music was the backbone of
> American popular entertainment. Enrico Caruso’s rendition of the aria “Vesti
> la giubba” from the opera Pagliacci was the first record to sell a million
> copies. Looney Tunes lampooned The Barber of Seville’s “Largo al factotum,
> "..._

This is changing the goalposts. The article talks about "serious" classical
music associated with evil characters... then uses two light-hearted comic
operas as a counterpoint? Sure, technically both classical, but as far away
from each other as you could get.

Look, this isn't mysterious. _Rich_ people are associated with evil in films,
and their stereotypical "too-good" pursuits -- mansions, opera halls, tuxedos,
and yes, classical music.

> _Maybe millennials are repelled by classical music not for coherent reasons
> but by a vague sense of mistrust, nourished for decades by movies and
> media._

This is ridiculous for a million reasons. It's simple, and I say this as
someone who has studied classical music for many years (including conducting):
classical music isn't that much _fun_ , compared to so many other options
today. The kind of people who like classical music are the kind of people who
enjoy watching documentaries or reading Shakespeare. It's high-effort, high-
reward for a particular kind of person.

~~~
TulliusCicero
> reading Shakespeare

This is pretty funny considering the connotation of Shakespeare's works at the
time.

Something similar with video games in more recent times. Playing NES games has
a slightly high-brow -- or at least higher-status -- connotation, compared to
when the games were new. Now they're _retro_ , which means playing them or
similar games is more serious or something. Whereas back in their heyday, they
were seen as almost entirely the domain of nerdy little boys, a silly thing
for silly children.

~~~
crazygringo
> _This is pretty funny considering the connotation of Shakespeare 's works at
> the time._

Well that's because, of course, at the time Shakespeare was highly accessible!
The language was everyone's native language, and the cultural references were
current.

Today it's basically a foreign language that requires a lot more effort to
comprehend at a reasonable level, and a ton of cultural allusions that aren't
part of our background anymore.

~~~
Retric
At an 8 year old kid I was uncontrollably laughing at one Shakespearean play.
Like modern movies targeting families you don’t need to understand everything
to enjoy them. They are not meant to be read, and most people are just exposed
to the boring crap.

------
jerf
I think this is one of those cases where the analysis is waaaaay too smart for
the subject material. There's a lot of stuff in Hollywood where it's just
cargo culting something that worked once. We have good reason to believe this
is the case because it also has a long history of anti-cargo-culting things
that failed once. You can see this whenever you have movies that killed an
entire genre for 5 or 10 years, only for that genre to explode in success
later (superhero movies I believe have been through that cycle twice now), or
for some really good movie to surprise its way on to the scene only to be
followed by a ton of crap copying only the most superficial aspects of the
successful product ("apparently, people really like found footage movies where
you can't see anything, so shake that camera even more").

It turns out Hollywood isn't particularly good at understanding what the root
causes of a movie's success or failure is, so there's a lot of cargo culting,
and cultural shortcuts.

As for how it started, I think it was just a simple class signifier, used for
incongruity's sake. (Itself something that Hollywood has cargo culted;
incongruity is a powerful tool but IMHO it's more than just jamming things
together that don't seem to belong, which is done a lot. There's thought that
can be put into what is being incongruous and why.)

(Note this isn't a terribly strong criticism of the article, it's more a
terribly strong criticism of Hollywood. Sometimes a subject matter just
doesn't have enough strength to support a careful analysis in the first
place.)

~~~
diego_moita
> There's a lot of stuff in Hollywood where it's just cargo culting something
> that worked once.

> cargo culting, and cultural shortcuts.

You've just described "cliché", an unavoidable component of any industrial
art.

The article explains that very same thing when it argues that Kubrick's "The
Clockwork Orange" started the trend.

~~~
naravara
Not quite. The person you’re responding to is talking about the motivations
and beliefs that lead to the clichés, not the things themselves.

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stuart78
Classical music in film and tv more commonly signals erudition, not simply
villainy. When there is a class conflict involved In film, the higher class
characters are more commonly the villains, and an appreciation for classical
music signals their remoteness.

Philadelphia uses Hanks’ appreciation for opera to signal his class status,
not villainy. Silence of the Lambs uses music and food same way.

Making the direct hop to villainy is too simplistic, and pointing fingers at
Clockwork Orange is absurd. That film’s synthesized classical music is used to
draw a parallel between the commodification of violence and the
commodification of culture more broadly.

~~~
rdiddly
...and to create what was, at the time, a stark juxtaposition.

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save_ferris
Overall, this was fairly interesting until the end. The author very loosely
questions whether the association of classical music to villainy is the real
reason behind the lagging attendance of millenials in the symphony scene. The
piece cites several anecdotal cases, but I couldn't think of a single one from
memory that supports this idea. My first thought was Fantasia, which really
doesn't fall into this argument.

I grew up as a music student and loved going to the symphony as a kid, so I'm
not necessarily the target audience here. But the one thing I notice when I go
these days is that sitting through an entire performance challenges my
attention span much, much more than it used to.

It's a common theme I've seen around HN, particularly with reading. The
symphony isn't really a visual experience (unless they're showing video, which
is becoming more common), and it can be really difficult to sit through
sometimes, especially if you don't love the music. There are a couple of
symphonies I love to listen to all the way, but most have a few exciting
themes with several minutes of "meh" in between them IMO.

~~~
msluyter
Yes, the article is definitely overgeneralizing from a number of anecdotes,
imho. While I tend to agree with the notion that classical music tends to
signal a certain remoteness -- thus correlating with villainy -- that's not
its _only_ use in movies.

One example: I recall when Star Wars came out, a lot of my friends bought the
soundtrack. It served as sort of a gateway to classical music. It's hard to
measure, of course, but I'd bet that that had a larger positive impact on
classical attendance than, say, Hannibal Lector killing people to Bach's
Goldberg Variations had a negative one.

To your lack of visual stimuli hypothesis, I'd also add as other more likely
drivers of classical's decline:

a) Live classical music is expensive and getting more so.

b) Sound quality in a concert hall is _different_ than via digital means. It
doesn't wash over you like it does when listening via your Bose headphones.
It's less visceral and more distant. And you have to tune out the other sounds
of coughing, people shifting in their seats, etc...

c) And finally, we have the _best_ recordings of any work available on demand.
In economic terms, that creates really cheap substitutes. Speaking for myself,
I'd rather just listen to the Vienna Philharmonic on the couch for free than
dress up, drive across town, find parking, and pay $100+ to hear the Austin
Symphony play the same work.

~~~
howard941
> I recall when Star Wars came out, a lot of my friends bought the soundtrack.
> It served as sort of a gateway to classical music.

Same for my generation w/r/t the soundtrack to 2001

~~~
makapuf
Except that 2001 was already existing as classical music. (Strauss and maybe
others.)

~~~
dvtrn
That's not up for debate, really here--is it? Rather the pointed argument
seems to be that for some of a certain age group, their exposure to the genre
was Star Wars. It seems merely in this case, yours was a different movie.

Besides that, there's an important difference between 2001 and Star Wars: 2001
utilized _existing_ classical scores that are excellent for their own reasons,
whereas John Williams composed entirely _new_ scores for Star Wars that were
similarly excellent.

It is just my personal opinion, but I think it will be a very long time before
we see another symphonic movie score that embeds itself _so deep_ into the
cultural fabric as Star Wars did. Not only was the music phenomenal and stands
well on its own, so many of them are elevated _because_ of the action taking
place with them on screen.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_OSeRxhGOY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_OSeRxhGOY)
Still gets me as excited today as it did when I was 8.

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abruzzi
As a devil's advocate--while there is definitely associations classical music
with wealth, classical music for evil I don't entirely see. Classical music is
a very deep trove of, mostly, royalty free music. Hannibal Lecter listening to
the aria from the Goldberg Variations is probably less about signaling his
sophistication, and more about the fact that it is a profoundly calm, even
serene, piece of music playing during a scene of horrific violence. It mirrors
the scene earlier where the said something like "his pulse never got above 80,
even when he ate her tongue." It shows the calmness in Lecter despite the
violence--this is not a crime of passion or hate.

Another small reference that I think is misused--he mentions Fritz Lang's M,
and the "Hall of the Mountain King" melody that the killer whistles. First the
film was made around 1931. Classical music would not have that sort of
reference to the audience at that time. In my opinion M was the first movie to
really understand sound film. The whistling tunes was a way to use sound to
evoke presence without the character on screen. We could see a child playing,
and hear the whistle in the background, and know that this child was being
targeted without having to cut away. We get this kind of film information all
the time in movies, but this is the first film that used the technique, and it
had nothing to do with classical music. (Lang also invented some other sound
dependent techniques in this film.)

This is not to say that some of the other examples are not instance of
signaling "bad person" sing classical music, but I don't think its evil. I
think the association of classical music with wealth/elitism is well
established in modern films, so its presence for a wealthy/elite killer is
expected, without taking that to also denoting evil.

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benj111
The Author and I obviously have different definitions of classical music.

They point out a 'villain' playing Bach. But to me, the whole film score is
classical music. Yes the film is about an evil thing but the music conveys
other things.

He identifies A clockwork Orange as a turning point . I could point to a host
of 70s and 80s film that had classical music scores, Star Wars, Indiana Jones
etc, etc.

I'll admit 'pop' music has become more popular in recent films, but classical
music is still really good at communicating certain moods, including but not
necessarily villainy.

~~~
Freak_NL
> I could point to a host of 70s and 80s film that had classical music scores,
> Star Wars, Indiana Jones etc, etc.

Let's not forget Zardoz (1974)!

Weird sci-fi, Sean Connery, and Beethoven's Seventh; what's not to like?

~~~
benj111
That's the one with Sean Connery with pony tail and underpants?

I want to look to confirm, but then I don't.....

Edit: Even worse than I remember. I had forgotten the bandolier.

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jacknews
I would say the premise itself is bogus

'Classical' music, old and new, is prevalent in movies

As a guess, because it is able to affect mood indirectly, 'in the background'

~~~
_bxg1
I think the author is distinguishing "real" classical music from "movie
music", which isn't the same just because it uses the same instruments.

~~~
ken
"Real" classical music, like the 19th century Russian opera "Ruslan and
Ludmila", the title music for the sitcom "Mom"?

~~~
_bxg1
I'm pretty sure "jacknews" was talking about standard cinema scores, written
specifically for the movie.

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Mikeb85
I don't know about this. In the past, entire soundtracks consisted of
classical music. One track for the good guys, another for the villain, but all
were orchestral. I think classical music works well for soundtracks because it
can convey feelings well, without the distraction of lyrics. Some of my
favourite games ever were from the Final Fantasy series, and they often used
composed music that was a similar style to classical music, and it added
greatly to the ambiance, whether it was walking around a village or fighting a
boss. Classical music just conveys a lot of emotion without the use of lyrics.

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mamcx
Is far simply, if a character like X genre, what it is signaling?

\- Classical music: Signal of a "cultivated"/intelligent mind. Similar to how
many villains play chess.

Also, is a _contrast_ of how some high evil actions contrast with the "calm"
cold mind of the villain.

\- Pop music: Signal of fun. Depending also, romance, liberation, etc

\- Rap music: Signal of the oppressed. Street-wise.

\- Rock music: Signal of rebellion, action.

\- Jazz music: ?

\- Latino music: Is Latino!

~~~
ByThyGrace
Jazz music: "cool" criminals pulling off a heist.

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davesque
It's just too easy to find counter examples to this claim. Hard to take it
seriously. I think the author was just very good at finding data points to fit
his theory.

Take the movie "Shine", for example, from 1996. The story of David Helfgott.
There's a dark side to be sure, but nothing like villainy. The classical music
in that movie, in fact, comes to symbolize a kind of _redemption_ or
_transcendence_ over madness -- not a succumbing to it.

As for the decreased symphony attendance, drawing a connection to his claim
seems pretty outlandish to me. A more likely explanation is that the symphony
as a live concert format is just really outdated. It was all the rage in the
1700s and 1800s in the western world. But that was a long time ago.

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_bxg1
I agree with the general thesis, but this:

> Maybe millennials are repelled by classical music not for coherent reasons
> but by a vague sense of mistrust, nourished for decades by movies and media.

Sounds like the exact kind of conspiracy theory he's accusing "the populace"
of having.

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jacknews
I'd like to know how and why red hair, and British accents became synonymous
with villainy

~~~
benj111
I was thinking the same, but didn't work it in to my reply.

Also why Romans have British accents?!?

~~~
em500
Because in the typical movie setting the Romans were upper-class foreign
rulers. That's why they don't have Cockney or Glasgow accents.

~~~
benj111
There doesn't seem to be a line of reasoning here.

I don't see how: 1)Romans were upper-class foreign rulers 2) ??????? 3) Romans
have English accents.

~~~
em500
2) The British Empire is the closest analog to the Roman Empire in living
memory. For hundred of millions of people in the past 3 centuries, British
aristocrats were the upper-class rulers, both hated and admired by many of the
ruled (including Americans in the colonial era).

~~~
benj111
I would put more stock in the American Colonial side, rather than living
memory side. Western cinema is after all western biased.

I'm biased anyway, being British and not upper class.

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8bitsrule
The very premise of the piece is shaky.

"But the 1960s ushered in a new era of mass entertainment. The expansion of
film, TV broadcasting, and especially TV advertising toppled the orchestra’s
place in popular culture..."

Three points: Pop music has come to demand high royalties. Most classical
music is in the public domain. Use a recording by a small orchestra, and ...
cheap. Like RKO.

Next: 'the orchestra's place' was not very high in American popular culture
-at any- time since the LP was introduced. There were many people who tried to
make it that way (the inventor of FM for one) but no. Leonard Bernstein tried,
but no. Author's misreading history here.

Finally: Films as a whole, sorry to say, have gotten A LOT darker in the past
50 years. Still, I can go through any number of movies made in the decades
since Space Odyssey and find uses of classical that wasn't associated with
darkness. Just one example: Elmer Bernstein, very successful in the film-score
business, borrowed heavily from classical for his music, and wasn't associated
with 'heavy' films in my recollection.

Listening to and appreciating classical music (as it is, not for any social
status it may pretend to confer) takes time. Like any advanced art, much of
art music is inscrutable to the casual listener. That may further the
disorientation of the dark-film fans.

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coldtea
A better question is "when". I've never noticed classic music being synonymous
with villainy. "Refined" or "high class" status/taste yes.

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johncoltrane
It didn't.

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silvat1
I would flatly respond to this title with 'it isn't'

Classical music is used to convey pretty much every different idea/feeling.

Aaron Copland is often used for fun, to use just one of the infinite counter
examples should the author choose to look
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un0BCd3Kb3I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un0BCd3Kb3I)

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arethuza
I don't know if it counts as classical music, but since seeing the landing
scene from First Man I can't get this music out of my head - for me it is now
synonymous with general heroic awesomeness:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tf8MaKYhfw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tf8MaKYhfw)

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ccvannorman
Totally agree. Another example, that damned Bugs Bunny and his brethren with
their malicious activities! I've never been able to enjoy The Barber of
Seville since :-[

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Udik
In one word: _populism_. Wikipedia has a good definition:

"an ideology which presents "the people" as a morally good force against "the
elite", who are perceived as corrupt and self-serving."

So in Hollywood blockbusters those who listen to classical music are
identified with the elite, which by the enjoyment of something "complicated"
sets itself apart from the good common people who pay the ticket to see once
again Good triumph over Evil.

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pjc50
Is this Wagner's fault?

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SubiculumCode
Leia's theme-I knew she was a villian, or at least a counterpoint.

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fopen64
Well, heroes only emerge when there are good villains.

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atoav
A interesting thought on this is whether it is linked to the rise of rock
music — people started to realize that “those wild rockers” were usually just
very nice people, while the real villains always wore ties suits and went to
the opera.

So I would say suspicion aboit the burgoise or the establishment played always
a role. Or maybe they read about the opera loving Nazis and thought this is a
interesting contrast.

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sfx77
A Clockwork Orange

