

Ideas are not worthless - ambition

A lot of folks here claim that ideas are worthless without execution. It seems to be the popular wisdom. I wanted to toss out arguments to the contrary and then give away a product idea based on the principle.<p>This post is sparked by a thread earlier today that almost turned into a discussion on the value of ideas: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=136970<p>Ideas need execution to have their value realized. That doesn't mean the ideas are worthless! A leader has value, but only with followers. The most talented salespeople depend on development for their worth. A pill doesn't do anything until you swallow it -- but you'll still be happy to have it, and you can pass one around before someone claims it.<p>If all ideas had zero value, then it would be meaningless to say that one idea is better than another.<p>The entire intellectual property system, whatever its flaws, was constructed to try and allow idea-creators to capitalize on the value of the idea independent of the execution.<p>It's difficult to separate the value of the idea from its execution for two reasons. First, unlike pills, ideas spread by replication; when you give one away you keep yours. Second, when product ideas spread, the value to each holder decreases since there's an increase in the probability of a more skillful execution by someone else.<p>If there were some way of making the economics of ideas work more like the economics of pills, a startup could presumably intermediate the market and make a profit. Poppysan would be able to claim some of the value for his/her good idea by passing it someone with more freedom to execute.<p>Here's one way I think it might work. And I don't have the time or passion to execute on it!<p>The idea is to create an idea-market, where people can buy and sell ideas. The ideas could be simple, like a sentence ("Create a Javascript object that makes server requests without a full page request";"Buy that Google stock, I think it'll hit $300") or full papers like Nielsen Norman sells. How do you sell something if showing it to someone gives it all away? Clearly, you can't show before they pay. But why do you buy something you haven't seen yet?<p>Well, you need to trust the seller. When you buy a subscription to a magazine or newspaper, it's because you trust the editors not to shove crap at you once they have your money. At first, you build this trust through a track record. If a random stranger walked up to me and said, "I have a great product idea and nobody but you available to execute on it, but I want $1000 first," I'd tell them to fuck off. If pg did the same, I'd call my bank. And I've never met him.<p>We don't want a daily startup idea for $5, we only want a few good ones. So our trust system needs to be distributed --- A seller's trust needs to be built on a few transactions each with many buyers, rather than deep 'relationships' with few buyers. One way this could work: Would-be sellers give away a few clever thoughts, free, to build up a reputation for insightful analysis; buyers rate ideas; sellers gain reputation points through the ratings; buyers ratings for individual ratings are compared to each other to keep the buyers honest; sellers with good reputations are able to raise their prices. Pleasant side-effect/higher purpose/path to billion dollars: Deprecate the patent system by becoming the central global clearing-house for intellectual property exchange, partnering with universities, corporations, governments and entrepreneurs.<p>It's investment columns taken digital. eBay for ideas. IP for the new millenium. Whatever.<p>Or maybe it's a silly idea worth nothing at all!
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mixmax
Here's what I think:

An idea by itself is worthless without execution, but definitely worth
something with the right execution behind it. So you can think of an idea as a
multilplier, where the better idea will give somebody skilled in execution a
better output.

To explain:

stupid idea: x0,5

OK idea: x1

good idea: x5

great idea: x10

Now if someone good at execution starts a company with an OK idea he will
make, let's say, $1.000.000. The idea is the multiplier, so if he executes a
good idea he will make $5.000.000, and if he executes a great idea he will
make $10.000.000.

So you can argue here that a great idea is worth $9.000.000 more than an OK
idea. But you can also argue that if it doesn't get executed it is worth
nothing.

That is the dilemma.

~~~
Malcx
[http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2005/08/ideas_are_just...](http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2005/08/ideas_are_just_a_multiplier_of.html)

~~~
chaostheory
u should post this as a normal yc post; never seen it before

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SwellJoe
It's a great idea. I'll wait here while you execute on it. Then it might be
worth something.

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ubudesign
I guess it would depend on how you would define that "idea". Is it a generally
good idea without any details? (i.e. create a better search engine then
Google) It's a good idea but worthless if you don't have the details and any
good algorithms behind it. Another point is that ideas develop from previous
thoughts and ideas. there is metamorphism about them. And if you also add
natural selection to it, for example to your auction site idea, then it could
make it work better. but then of course, sometimes it is the unpopular idea
that really works and worth something not what gets the most votes. Certainly
true when you look at science's history. Yet another important part of an idea
is its timing. many examples for this... but just to give one, sending dvd
rentals by mail (Netflix) Good for now but perhaps will be over soon and sound
ridiculous when more people get high speed internet and can stream.

anyway there are lots of things to conceder about an idea before declaring it
worthless or not. And I would definitely not narrow it down to idea vs.
execution.

------
murrayh
An interesting analysis. I agree that ideas are valuable, and after
considering the issue, probably the only reason they have a market value of
zero is because there is no good way to trade them.

I think you are on the right track with your proposed solution, but I think we
can improve it:

Basically, ideas are interesting. If you publish ideas, a lot of people would
go and read them. So there is your market. And you also note that the value of
an idea decreases as it spreads, so that property can be leveraged to generate
a competitive market.

So what you could do is generate the ideas and keep them exclusive. Someone
can pay to look at an idea, and if they like the idea, they can buy it. If
they don't buy, the idea gets released to the public.

I can see why this hasn't been attempted before, because there are some
difficult issues that need to be dealt with. I do think that it could be done
and made to work, so I might actually play around with this one and see what
falls out. ambition, send an email if you'd like to play with me.

~~~
ambition
I agree there are difficult issues, this thread has unearthed several!

I will be honest though -- I thought of this in the context of poppysan's
post, in which he or she claimed significantly greater-than-zero value for an
idea. My own personal philosophy would be opposed to the idea market I
proposed above, though. I believe that if someone is unable to execute on an
idea, they should give it away. For that reason, I'd be unable to execute on
constructing an idea market. My heart wouldn't be in it.

If you do play with it, I bet many people here would be interested in the
result.

~~~
Jd
Ideas of people have a history of execution are worthwhile. Also, these people
may vet ideas proposed by others. This is essentially how YC works -- the
prototype is the idea displayed, not executed -- PG is the veter.

One can simply move this to an earlier stage. One must establish oneself (or
one's group) as an expert in a specific area, then have persons submit their
ideas to your organization. You review them, and offer them to sale to
interested parties.

This is essentially how VC works but I believe it could be re-encapsulated at
an earlier stage, esp. with software engineering projects which are primarily
idea drivien.

To the doubters out there, this is simply specialization of labor in a growing
industry. Not everyone should attempt to do anything. Compare journalism.
Editors, Writers, Editoralists, Proof Readers, Managers. All work to some
degree with the text. We have only one job at the moment - coder/programmer.

It is time to take this to the next stage.

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noonespecial
It also has a continuum and value add component. Think of it like this:

1) A good idea

2) A good idea for searching the internet

3) A good idea for searching the internet with a certain algorithm to rank
pages.

4) Using a distributed computing system to make this search scale.

5) Google.

As each order of possibility collapses into the next the idea becomes more and
more the execution until its done. At each stage, the value increases as some
possibilities are trimmed off and the idea becomes more concrete (or less as
the wrong ones remain and the path is derailed).

The primary problem going on in the IP world right now seems to be an
unhealthy focus (and over valuation) on the very early stages of the
continuum. Patents should be issued at steps 3 and 4 but they are being issued
at 2 instead. Thus selling stuff _but on the interwebs_ , becomes patentable
and the dissonance caused by this makes it difficult now for those at 3 and 4
trying to get value from the actual hard part.

~~~
aswanson
Yeah, this guy got to stage 3, and nobody gives him credit:
[http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel4/4236/1...](http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel4/4236/15320/00707687.pdf?arnumber=707687)

With ideas, it's take it to the finish line or die anonymous.

EDIT: 1 guy did give him credit, looking back on this is hilarious. Look at
what the engine the guy was forced to use:

[http://groups.google.com/group/comp.infosystems.search/brows...](http://groups.google.com/group/comp.infosystems.search/browse_thread/thread/a16f32297c172b70/c41c2b5c44cf29e1?lnk=st&q=rankdex&rnum=6)

Also note the extraordinary business vision of Dow Jones.

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whacked_new
The sentiment that ideas are worthless without execution is generally true.
This can be easily explained, as "execution" can be broken down into two
components: actions, and details. Action is obvious: no action, no product.
Details, well, are "where the devil is."

A really good idea will include enough details, that it spills over into
"execution." It's not just an idea-market. It's an idea-market where people
submit via a form that looks like this, click that button, get scored this
way. We will launch it by doing this, talking to those people, and focusing on
this sector. We will convert this into physical and monetary value by selling
this service.

Now, that may be an idea that is worth something.

While you have described certain approaches, until you have a very sharp focus
that describes _exactly_ how to get from point A to B (nothing to full
product), which means not just "one way to do this is...", but "this is how we
will do it," then the idea really is not "executable."

~~~
ambition
Effectively, what you're saying is "fuzzy" ideas have low value, and we would
end up with market for full business plans.

~~~
whacked_new
Pretty much, yes. Amusingly, language is "fuzzy" by nature, which is why
human-human communication is so verbose. So the word "ideas" has debatable
meaning. What you call an idea, I may call a whole business plan, or vice
verse, or some other combination of things.

Aside of that, someone indeed has created a "business plan" market website. I
don't remember what it's called, but if you can't find it, I can try fishing
it out.

------
jdvolz
Not all ideas are worth 0, just ideas that don't provide value in and of
themselves. For example, a product idea doesn't provide value to your
customer, a product execution / implementation does. On the other hand ideas
that are provable or experimentally verifiable have value unto themselves
(examples: fundamental theorem of algebra, electricity and magnetism, theory
of relativity). This board focuses on product ideas so by and large here ideas
are worthless.

------
sanj
Ideas are not worthless without execution.

They are just not worth much.

------
louisadekoya
I too do not agree that ideas are worthless. About a year ago, I posted that I
was amazed at the number of idea-bashing posts that I found in the
blogosphere. I have taken the following excerpt from my post:

"... whilst an idea that is not executed is not worth anything in itself, it
is worth something if it sparks other ideas that do get executed, whether by
the originator or someone with whom the originator shares the idea.

Another point that these idea bashers make is that a well executed poor idea
is worth more than a poorly executed brilliant idea. Whilst this may be true,
I contend that a good execution of a poor idea is itself a good idea that was
sparked by the poor one. In other words, to execute an idea you have to come
up with an idea of how to execute the idea you are trying to execute. And the
idea you want to execute is what sparks your brilliant execution idea.

So to my mind, ideas rule.So people, please stop the idea bashing. Ideas rock
and are the seeds of innovation, change and progress."

------
Tichy
Isn't that similar to the prediction markets that are popping up like
mushrooms lately?

Also, there are markets for ideas, kind of, for example cambrian house comes
to mind.

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m0nty
"Ideas are not worthless."

Yes they are. They only become valuable when you work on them and make them
into something people find useful. You can have a brilliant idea and watch it
die on poor implementation and marketing, and a crumby one and make
[m|b]illions from it. What's kind of fun and surprising about the Web 2.0
phenomenon is watching apparently weak ideas taking on a life of their own and
becoming something interesting and useful.

Anyway, regardless of the merit of an idea in itself, can we all agree it's
getting a bit tedious when people come to YC news and say "I've got a fabulous
idea but no programming skills and I'd like to know where to take it. BTW, I
won't tell you what it is"? I'd characterise that as attention seeking or
border-line trolling.

------
Hexstream
"Well, you need to trust the seller. When you buy a subscription to a magazine
or newspaper, it's because you trust the editors not to shove crap at you once
they have your money. At first, you build this trust through a track record."

According to some research I read here recently, geniuses that produce lots of
great output also produce lots of not-so-great output.

So, having a streak of a couple free good ideas doesn't really tell much about
the value of the next for-pay idea.

Also, because of the high subjectivity, lack of tangibility and prospect of
easy money, I think such a "market" would be driven by hype and corruption in
general.

~~~
ambition
That's a good point. I thought about it some more, I think we would end up
with trusted idea 'editors'. Folks with no reputation would be forced to go to
these high-reputation editors to resell ideas. These editors would gain
reputation for their excellent judgement of ideas which they publish and sell.

I think you're right though, good ideas don't come from people with a few
consistently good ideas, they come from people with thousands of ideas and the
right filters in place.

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moog
Ok, here's my crazy idea:

If you have a great idea, you post it to, let's say, 'mycrazyideahaslegs.com'
and you pay the site a dollar amount reflecting your belief in the idea. If
you really believe in it, you pay $1000. So, what's the point in that? Well,
you then get to read all the other $1000 ideas, and those users can read
yours. True, your great idea is now shared, but only amongst a small group of
people. You all get the chance to execute on it.

~~~
dreish
Who is going to implement this idea?

Hearing this, the novice suddenly achieved enlightenment, several years later.

------
iamdave
An idea without execution is just a dream.

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deltapoint
Good idea, but it is still rough. The actual value of the idea wouldn't matter
in an auction setting, it would just be the perceived value that would matter.
And that perception would usually be flawed.

IP has value. I don't know if a mere idea with no protection is IP though.

Information is meant to disseminate. It is nearly impossible to manage the
spread of the information. Nothing stops someone from reselling an idea or
just distributing it freely after distribution.

Usually when ideas are sold there is a specific context for the ideas.
Consultants can come in and just give advice (ideas) and receive compensation,
but they are solving a problem. Not just a random idea.

------
johnrob
Why are YC companies so secretive before they launch? If ideas are worthless,
why not tell the world what they do (and start getting feedback sooner)?

This alone, for me, proves that ideas are not worthless.

~~~
dreish
In order to commit to doing a ridiculous amount of work to bring an idea to
reality, one must believe deeply that there's a realistic chance the venture
will lead to obscene wealth, fame, magazine covers, and a 60 Minutes
interview. Believing this, people vastly overestimate the risk that someone
else will see how brilliant the idea is and run with it. It goes with the
territory.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't constitute proof that they _are_ out to
get you.

------
ardit33
"Ideas need execution to have their value realized. That doesn't mean the
ideas are worthless!"

\--Ok. If you say ideas have a real value, then why there is not market for
it? Why there is no website where you can sell your great ideas to the highest
bidder?

sorry, but ideas are just that. worth 0. It takes hard work and execution to
make an idea worth something. Therefore, the execution is the value making
part of it. Without it, the idea will just be a day dream.

~~~
davidw
Because ideas are not easily "excludable" (
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excludability> ). How can you sell it if you're
giving it away for free on the site? How can you buy it if you can't read
about it?

That doesn't mean that an idea has no _value_ , it means that it's impossible
to transform into money. Or, if not quite impossible, that the transaction
costs outweigh the value of such a market (I'm not convinced of the value of
the original poster's idea:-)

BTW, I explained this a year ago:

[http://journal.dedasys.com/articles/2007/04/26/ideas-are-
wor...](http://journal.dedasys.com/articles/2007/04/26/ideas-are-worthless)

------
Spyckie
Instead of selling ideas, I think the person behind the idea is valuable.

Some people have the gift of coming up with great ideas, or shaping existing
ideas in a good direction. The evaluation of ideas and solving the details of
an idea is something that is an art and has valuable, much more than the idea
itself.

People that create ideas that have no vested interest in making it a reality
probably don't have a good enough idea.

------
ericb
Successful Business = Idea * 1 to 50 years hard work.

When you compare the hour to think up the idea to the work required, there's
no comparison. Worse, there's no shortage of ideas--they're nearly infinite,
which, in supply and demand terms means their value approaches 0. This does
not mean that some ideas are not better than others, only that their economic
value is still generally $0.

------
maxwell
I try not to separate the idea from the implementation, your idea isn't one
solid thing, but a whole set of possibilities to go through. There doesn't
seem to usually be much value in the Pet Rock-style one-shot Ideas; you need
to accumulate many individual compatible and supportive ideas over time. Like
an organism, successful software adapts to suit its environment.

------
mixmax
Look at the empirical evidence. If you can point to just one example of
someone making a million dollars of an idea without any execution I'll buy you
a beer. On the other hans I can give you countless examples of people that
made millions on execution without an original idea.

------
kashif
An idea is not worthless! It can give you insight, highlight your gaps in
knowledge or spark another idea. but, unless executed you cant see it in
action and it wont give you money.

An idea is a thought and execution is action - clearly these are different
things.

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nonrecursive
Brought to mind "the hollow men" by T. S. Eliot:

[http://mybanyantree.wordpress.com/2007/10/02/ts-eliots-
the-h...](http://mybanyantree.wordpress.com/2007/10/02/ts-eliots-the-hollow-
men/)

------
xcombinator
As someone already noted Ideas without execution are just dreams, and
everybody has dreams: \- I dreamed about going to work flying. \- I dreamed
about people not killing theirs self in war. \- I dreamed about everybody
loving me. \- I dreamed about travelling all the world. \- I dreamed about
making the best voice-recognition software in the world. \- I dreamed about
creating the best voice-music generator program in the wold. \- I dreamed
about people being able to understand every language on earth easily. ...

It has taken me years of studying and work to be able to put in practice (some
of) my ideas. So keep your ideas for yourself, people is busy taking action
with their own.

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icky
Is the idea "ideas are worthless" itself worthless? Explain how. ;)

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D_T
Someone I know has already begun executing this idea. He has big plans for it.

------
tim2
The unreadably low-contrast font here on HN though, is worthless.

------
catgen
<http://kluster.com/home/questions>

here might be the marketplace for ideas, idea you had. So another factor in
valuing an idea is, who had it first and executes on it.

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mooneater
concision rocks.

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gscott
Some ideas are so good it doesn't take a genius to implement them. Personally
I feel ideas are more important then your team, once you get started others
will want to join you... your team will form itself with the right idea and
some execution on your part.

