
E.U. Plans to Bar Most U.S. Travelers When Bloc Reopens - danhak
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/world/europe/europe-us-travel-ban.html
======
somewhereoutth
It is astonishing that some commenters here are trying to argue that the US is
experiencing anything other than an accelerating disaster right now. We are
going to witness what the unrestricted spread of this virus can do to a
developed nation. This is due in no small part to those who would vocally
downplay the effects of the virus, its penetration into the population, and/or
the necessity for drastic public health measures.

The EU makes cold hard calculations on matters such as this - I am glad they
have my back.

~~~
ars
Strange message. The actual data: [https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-
cases-50-states](https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases-50-states) does
not show any kind of "accelerating disaster".

Instead it shows that some states have completed their infection curve, and
other are just starting it.

Not a single state is showing a downward trajectory that then reverses and
climbs upward.

So what is your basis for saying that?

> The EU makes cold hard calculations on matters such as this - I am glad they
> have my back.

You do know that the EU has more deaths than the US, yes? It's possible that
could change, since it's not over yet in the US. But as of right now I see
zero indication "they have your back" in any special way. Their situation is
more or less the same as the US.

------
KCUOJJQJ
Many governments (including the one that occupies my country Switzerland)
drove economies into the ditch. These governments won't admit that this was
wrong from the start. Now they have to pretend the USA is too dangerous.

~~~
eeh
People from high-occurrence areas are a risk to people from low-occurrence
areas.

That said, it's possible that both approaches were poor.

We'll only understand the cost of lockdown in hindsight: increased poverty,
increase joblessness, increased mental health issues, etc.

Some problems don't have any good-looking solutions.

------
chelovek89
Article is unclear if it's passport based or based on where you've been the
last 14 days. The latter approach is more sensible and the former seems
punitive and retaliatory more than anything.

~~~
alisonatwork
I really wish this would get cleared up in the media. Surely this has to be
based on recent travel history and not the passport, but that's not how it's
being reported.

A few weeks ago there was news that Greece would open to tourists from China
on July 1, but now they're (justifiably) saying there ought to be reciprocal
opening as a prerequisite. Meanwhile no airlines are flying direct flights so
it's not clear how tourists would get between the countries anyway. It's
leaving travelers in really awkward situations because we can't really plan
for anything.

I think the truth is most countries haven't finalized their policies yet, and
that's why the reporting is so fuzzy. I suspect a lot of countries don't want
to be the first to take the plunge.

In my opinion we should just reopen all the borders and enforce quarantine as
the default case. For countries who want a fast track lane, they can keep
waffling about how to do that, but just reopening everywhere with quarantines
would at least get the travel industry moving again and give the world a
framework to get things back to normal.

------
golem14
My guess is that there is a _huge_ opportunity for some private entity to do
Abbot-style 15 minute tests on arriving passengers (like global entry). Pay
$100, check out negative, good to go. Maybe the airlines themselves could do
it, seeing that people usually show up 2h in advance on intl flights.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Probably want to do the check at departure, so you’re not stuck with the cost
of 14 days of quarantine at the destination or repatriation.

~~~
golem14
Yup, the private entity would have to make a deal with the EU to only send
OKed passengers on a plane (and crew, too).

It's not that hard. And while tests are not foolproof, it's probably "safe
enough". I wonder why this hasn't been done already.

------
socraticmethod
I've been seeing more and more talk of how global opinions of the US have
really taken a hit in the last year. With that in mind, do y'all think as
quickly as it went down it can recover?

~~~
raphaelj
As a western European, most of it is associated with the current president and
administration. Almost every European liked Obama and supported his
international leadership.

~~~
ekabod
"Almost every European liked Obama and supported his international
leadership."

You are making some strong statements.

~~~
alisonatwork
Here is brief Pew Research article that backs up the statement:
[https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/01/08/how-
people-...](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/01/08/how-people-
around-the-world-see-the-u-s-and-donald-trump-in-10-charts/)

I think it's fair to say that Obama was much more trusted in Europe than
either Bush or Trump. When you break it down by country the story is more
complex, but the poster did admit to being western European.

------
ars
This line: "that the United States, which has reported more coronavirus deaths
and infections than any other country"

Is so misleading that it borders on an outright lie. Per capita the US is
middle of the pack, not especially great, not terrible either.

See:
[https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality](https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality)

I also hate seeing stuff like:

"The conundrum is in some ways similar to a decision this week by New York,
New Jersey and Connecticut to impose mandatory quarantines on travelers from
other states where the virus is flaring, like Florida and Texas."

New York was, by far, the worst hit state. And now they are getting better.
That have no place to criticize other states who are no worse than them, they
are just on a later timetable.

It's identical to Europe: Europe was hit hard, and is now better. The US is
simply lagging behind, but no it's "a stinging rebuke to the Trump
administration’s management of the coronavirus scourge."

I fully support the ban!!! Just not the language used to describe it.

This is why people say "Fake News", it's not outright fake, it's just very
slanted.

~~~
danhak
If you want to talk about misleading, you are the one who just changed
goalposts from "most infections" to "mortality per capita." I would hope the
healthcare system of the most advanced economy on earth would fare better than
"middle of the pack" when it comes to mortality.

If you're arguing that figures should be adjusted for population then fine.
Let's look at infections per capita, where U.S. is currently 12 out of 200--
significantly higher than any other western democracy, even those that have
done more testing per capita. Hardly middle of the pack:
[https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries)

~~~
ars
I don't like to use infection as a standard because that depends 100% on how
much testing you do. So it's easy to fake by just doing less testing.

Deaths is much harder to fake, and if you checked you would see there isn't
any actual medical treatment, mortality rates aren't going to change much
given basic care, so it's an excellent way to compare countries (except maybe
those that are too poor to even have the basics).

~~~
danhak
> I don't like to use infection as a standard because that depends 100% on how
> much testing you do

As I pointed out, our infection rate is higher than European countries that
have a testing rate >= ours. So that is a fair comparison. I.E. our positivity
rate is higher.

~~~
ars
Source please for testing rate? Both for the European countries, and for the
individual US states (looking at the US as one lumped whole will give
misleading results because different states are at different points in their
infection, some are ending like NY, and some are starting like CA).

~~~
danhak
[https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries)

You can click through to get more granular on the country, state, and county
levels.

