
You're a Slave to Money, Then You Die - jxub
https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/youre-a-slave-to-money-then-you-die/
======
josefresco
"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood,
carry water."

~~~
softwaredoug
Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, get smallpox, let doctor do
bloodletting, watch everyone around you die

After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, get smallpox vaccine, live to
play with your kids and watch them grow up...

~~~
edanm
I'm not sure, but I think you're thinking of enlightenment as in "the age of
enlightenment", whereas the quote is about the zen/buddhist idea of
"enlightenment (as in, even after reaching enlightenment, nothing much changes
materially).

------
peterlk
If you have not read _The hard thing about hard things_, you should. One of my
favorites is this exchange when the company hits hard times:

Bill Campbell: "It's not about the money."

Ben Horowitz: "What's it about, Bill?"

Bill: "It's about the FUCKING money.

~~~
harambaebae69
Is this the same general concept as in Spaceballs (1987)?

Lone Starr : Listen! We're not just doing this for money!

Barf : [Barf looks at him, raises his ears]

Lone Starr : We're doing it for a SHIT LOAD of money!

------
rthomas6
Past a certain baseline, you're only a slave to money to the extent that
you're a slave to your desires.

~~~
missedthecue
The title is really only saying "Humans Want a Higher Standard of Living" but
phrased in a way that an angsty 15 year old might write.

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buf
If you want wealth, stop renting out your time. Lean towards equity. You need
to be able to make money even while sleeping.

~~~
xvector
How should one go about doing this?

~~~
mdorazio
Realistically, most people can't and/or shouldn't do this by building a
business or working at a startup. Both of these are very risky and won't
generally accomplish what I think the parent comment implies. Instead, the
more reliable way is to invest as much of your income as you reasonably can in
securities like stocks and bonds so that over time you are indeed making money
doing nothing. Also, if your company offers stock options, opt for those if
you think the company is going to do well in the future.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
How does the reasoning of buying stocks and bonds work over time given the
current crisis has wiped out all the gains for many people made in the past
several years utilizing this strategy, and before that was 2008 which did the
same?

~~~
esotericn
You don't need to make gains. You need to spend significantly less than you
earn. If you can work for 4 months and survive for 12 then you're there.

Compound returns are a nice bonus if they come, but not necessary. Sensible
frugality is the important part.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
This doesn't work for people who want to have children, who may have
healthcare conditions, who need to take care of their parents, etc. Spending
significantly less than you earn won't mean much if inflation means anything
you earn is worth less year over year.

~~~
esotericn
You need to maintain value or decrease at a very low compounded rate.

You don't need compound gains.

> This doesn't work for people who want to have children, who may have
> healthcare conditions, who need to take care of their parents, etc.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my point. You need to save more than you
earn. If you can't or don't want to, so it goes. Not everyone's a winner.

------
deathhand
Government was always supposed to be influenced 'by the people' those people
are usually aristocrats. That is fine if there are enough of them with
different ideas. What has happened is the consolidation of the artiscroacy and
thus the means of influence of government. This is where we are getting our
ugly problems from.

What is the first step to fixing this? Bring voting into the 21ST century AND
NOT HAVE VOTING SOFTWARE BE CONSIDERED A TRADE SECRET[1].

Voting shouldn't be as onerous today and things like the Sun Light
foundation[2] should be a household name.

We have all met jerks in our lives. People who lie,deciet, and cheat to get
ahead. How is having the government covered in obscurity good for anyone?

1 -
[https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190706/17082642527/votin...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190706/17082642527/voting-
machine-makers-claim-names-entities-that-own-them-are-trade-secrets.shtml)

2- [https://sunlightfoundation.com/web-integrity-
project/](https://sunlightfoundation.com/web-integrity-project/)

~~~
cpr
The problem with democracy is that you end up with mob rule.

And as soon as the mob realizes it can vote itself bread and circus, it's all
over.

The founding fathers said exactly that.

And the mob in general is in thrall to the media, which is pretty much a
wholly owned operation of the ruling class.

So, I guess, in the end, you get what your ruling class wants anyway, with the
unwitting mob just a means to its own control.

~~~
threatofrain
If a democracy wants authoritarianism Nationalist Party then there is no magic
mechanism to stop this, and it might be presumptive to even assume that
democracy is most morally harmonious and effective configuration of society. I
believe China is seriously contending this assumption, as it races ahead of
its Asian and European neighbors with respect to economic optimism.

Also, political parties appear part and parcel with democracy, but that part
of the discussion is so often left unloved.

~~~
bathtub365
And I would say it also races far ahead of its neighbours on the number of
atrocities it commits against its own citizenry.

------
ghastmaster
The term Neoliberalism attributed to post 1980 political figures is
appropriate in that they tout themselves as classical
liberal(hayek,mises,etc.) ideals proponents, but in reality they do not apply
or conform to classical liberal ideals. The author does not understand that
classical liberal interpretations of economics is an explanation of markets
underlying principles. Reading mises, hayek, etc. Is akin to reading the code
rather than using the software. The religious references in classical liberal
writing is a reflection of how awesome it is to understand how something so
seemingly complex works under quite simple principles.

The author conflates modern pseudo classical liberal rhetoric and application
with intellectually sincere thought. It is hard to read this article and take
him serious. Boiled down, this is just a piece of rhetoric. There is very
little intellectual value.

~~~
tomrod
My takeaway as well.

------
state_less
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery. None but our self can free our
minds." Bob Marley - Redemption Song

------
UncleSlacky
Money, particularly fiat currency, is a useful fiction. You're not a slave of
money as such, it's a tool of enslavement by those who control how much money
is allowed to exist and how much is allowed to circulate. As Iain M. Banks put
it, "Money is a sign of poverty".

~~~
enkid
The act of enslavement is in fact a two way street. You have to choose to want
whatever you can buy with money in order to be enslaved. It's a choice most
people just don't know they are making. For many, it's also a choice that
makes sense if they want to survive. Money lets you buy food, clothes, and
shelter. Making a choice to be enslaved for those is clear(but still a
choice). Making a choice to be enslaved beyond that is not as clear.

~~~
LordDragonfang
"The act of enslavement is in fact a two way street. Enslaved Africans had to
choose to not want to be whipped and beaten by their slavemaster for
attempting to run away"

When the alternative is not something a reasonable person would choose, it's
common courtesy to not pretend it's an actual choice.

------
noir_lord
Other than the author having the ability to use large words I'm not sure what
I was supposed to have come away with from this piece at all, it's just word
salad.

~~~
dhsysusbsjsi
Oh my god I'm glad it's not just me. I gave up at:

"...the distribution of wealth and popular acquiescence in the vicissitudes of
the market—the hoi polloi might vote themselves welfare states or even
socialism."

Word salad is understatement of the day.

~~~
mjw1007
It's not my favourite style of writing, but it's by no means word salad.

That paragraph presents a single coherent line of thought. They could have
chosen simpler individual words, but there's nothing difficult in the phrasing
or structure.

~~~
RHSeeger
> They could have chosen simpler individual words

And they should have. I can put together a sentence using a lot of words most
people won't know. It will be a valid sentence, and it will mean what I want
it to mean, but a lot of people won't be able to understand what I intended it
to mean.

~~~
foldr
It's so easy to look words up in a dictionary these days, but for some reason
the tech community likes to take a perverse pride in reading at an 8th grade
level. "How dare you use a word that happens not to be in my limited
vocabulary?"

~~~
Retric
_hoi polloi_ is a redundant phrase that’s intended to hide the simplicity of
the idea. It’s simply lazy writing to mask lazy thinking.

~~~
foldr
I don't think so. It's chosen because it reflects a particular attitude
towards the working classes. (The hoi polloi don't call _themselves_ the hoi
polloi.) It's also not in any way an obscure phrase. In the UK at least it's
in common usage.

~~~
Retric
Coded language attempts to convey ideas through subtext. By doing so it’s
reducing the carrying capacity of the information channel and lets authors pad
words without adding meaning.

That’s more or less the definition of lazy writing. Like a kid starting off
with “It was a dark and stormy night...”

~~~
foldr
It’s coded only in the sense that you have to know what the words mean to
understand what the author is saying. Any piece of writing is “coded” in that
sense. Choosing to write in a plodding, completely literal style also conveys
a subtext.

I'm not sure why you refer to “padding”. “Hoi polloi” is just as concise as
any of its less flavorful synomyms (e.g. “common people”). The use of this
phrase actually makes the piece more concise, as it removes the need to
explicitly indicate the (already fairly obvious) attitudes of the upper
classes to the people below them. Some things are significant enough to be
worth indicating but not important enough to be worth mentioning.

If you aren’t familiar with “hoi polloi” (and again, it's not actually a very
obscure phrase at all!), it takes a few seconds to look it up in a dictionary.

[https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/hoi%20polloi](https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/hoi%20polloi)

~~~
Retric
That’s not what coded language means. I don’t think anything used in the
article was obscure. The style depends on making things as clear as humanly
possible so readers are beaten over the head with the subtext.

As a simple experiment, take the article and write down the meaning being
conveyed including subtext next to it.

~~~
foldr
Ironically, I genuinely don't understand your last comment.

~~~
Retric
Ok, I am going to approach this sideways. There is a somewhat related
linguistic technique used in the cold war where a politician would go on TV
and give a long speech that used the format “If the American people want
peace, and the Russian people want peace, and (various junk), and _Americans
move their missiles out of Crimea, then we can have peace._ (more platitudes)”
An US intelligence officer would then translate this 20 minute speech into a
few sentences of English that contained the relevant information.

Effectively the information could be lifted directly from the speech and was
very straightforward, but hidden among a lot of meaningless drivel. I am
saying the author’s stile similarly lets the add a lot of padding due to their
approach to conveying information.

------
hudibras
Here's the paragraph that's making everyone mad:

>Like the student and other forms of personal debt that prepare undergraduates
to say two words—“Yes, boss”—the ideal of the entrepreneurial self serves a
fundamentally disciplinary function: reinforcing the precarious nature of work
in today’s digitalized, low-wage, precariously employed, and increasingly
automated capitalism, one in which you are casually expendable and which
places a premium on everlasting metamorphosis: upgrade your skills, your
profile, your resume. But don’t worry, complain, or God help you, call a
union: losing your job or seeing your skill set rendered obsolescent is an
opportunity for “growth,” creativity, empowerment. When your own exploitation
can be recast as a project rather than a problem—a source of fulfillment
rather than an instance of injustice—then solidarity with others can be
vilified as conformism, the herd instinct of normies, the last refuge of
losers and mediocrities.

~~~
lazyjones
Reading this, one might think capitalism is cruel and entrepreneurship is a
horrible struggle. Or one might conclude it perfectly mirrors nature and life.
I'm not sure what the fuss is about.

~~~
achillesheels
The moral worth of the individual has been lost, leading to more and more what
I would define as “market barbarism.” Social relations are now completely
profane and not objectively striving for meaning beyond the temporal.

------
tomrod
I'm not a religious man, but one quote from a religious leader has always
stuck out to me. "Interest is a terrific servant and a terrible master."

The polis, bazaar, and pulpit have always been at odds as a triumvirate. My
bet is on the bazaar. Even when people are put in jail economics is manifest,
using cigarettes or other trinkets as currency for favors and meager supplies.
The "market" the author rails against is a strawman.

------
lcall
Having learned for myself that life has a purpose and there is life after
death, with a just judge (and merciful, for the merciful), and that all things
will be put in good order (my wording, emphasis on good): that all changes
everything, for me at least.

Today is Easter, when we commemorate the empty tomb....

~~~
lcall
With any downvotes, I would appreciate a courteous, thoughtful comment. I have
not understood the possible harm in what I said, only likely disagreement.
Disagreement is OK, but it seems that it could be better to write clearly
rather than just quietly hide.

~~~
tasuki
_If_ what you said was inaccurate, ie if there was no life after death, in my
opinion it'd be harmful to claim that there is.

~~~
lcall
I like how you put that, and I think I agree with you. I am also extremely
grateful for what I know, and for knowing it (per links provided in the other
response). If I can be of service in answering questions I will try.

------
travisoneill1
Everybody wants to consume the goods and services that others work to produce,
but doesn't want to do any of the work themselves. The best part of this
article was the authors statement of the argument against:

> many intellectuals deny that “neoliberalism” is anything more than a cipher,
> an elastic anathema for whatever its users find objectionable in
> contemporary life

------
m0llusk
Here working with abstractions causes a loss of connection to the various
factors that contributed to our path. The resurgence of liberal capitalism
came after decades of elites dealing with a 90% income tax rate and unions so
powerful that their ability to actually produce anything for a profit was
beginning to slip away. But of course the author has little if any knowledge
of or empathy for contemporary business people now let alone such folk from
decades ago.

All this talk of isms is supposed to be enlightening guidance, but ultimately
governments need to set rules and tax rates and respond to various challenges.
The mapping from ism to action is hardly ever direct and often ends up lost in
mystery and obscurity.

------
lihaciudaniel
You are slave to hope. You are slave to fear

------
DeathArrow
>Those are the gravitational principles of Jensen’s corporate cosmology, but
it is also an eschatological narrative in which the kingdom of God has been
replaced by capitalism as the consummation of history.

To me corporatism is against the principle of capitalism and free market.

Anyway, this article could have been written by Marx himself.

------
lejalv
HN, mirror.

------
ryansc0tt
You know the circle is complete when "Hacker News" upvotes a religious
diatribe on the boundaries and merits of neoliberalism.

~~~
cbHXBY1D
I have a feeling most here didn't seriously read this submission...

------
peignoir
It’s ad reductio it’s like saying soccer is pushing a ball. You could also say
life is waking up eating sleeping and then death. It’s true but it’s
definitely an emotional argument. I preferred the lectures on free will by
Conway, it does not answer anything but it allows for a nice réflexion

~~~
hudibras
In every HN comment section, there's always, 100% of the time, at least one
person who only reads the title of the piece (in this case, a song lyric from
The Verve) and still has the nerve to post a comment.

~~~
justnotworthit
There must be a dozen or two "100% of the time" comments. Collect them all and
make a mock/parody HN thread.

~~~
hudibras
* Cryptocurrency

* Fiat currency

* Economics is not a real science

* I understand what the author is trying to say, but I don't like how he says it

* I didn't read the piece, but website that published it is problematic

* The title is clickbait, and I'm unaware of the concept of newspaper headlines

------
billfruit
How is then of the possible recent and ongoing attempts to reform the
capitalist system like the gig economy, use of automation to make manual
labour obsolete, rise of a democratized social media, disruptive innovation
etc seem to have more stronger opposition from the left rather than the right,
esp in the USA.

Many on the left seem to deeply in favour of preserving the status quo, and
seems to not have the means or methods or vision of changing the very broken
systems into something better.

~~~
throwanem
A leftist would say that's because neoliberalism, despite having the word
"liberal" in its name, is at best a center-right ideology, and would be _very
surprised_ at your assertion that leftists want to preserve the broken status
quo.

~~~
billfruit
Yes but left seems more critical of change/possibility of change than the
right.

~~~
throwanem
I don't understand in what context this can seem accurate, unless it's one of
confusing liberalism and leftism. The US presidential candidate favored by the
left, in the current and prior election cycles, is a democratic socialist
whose candidacy and appeal are both founded on the promise of restricting the
power of, and ameliorating the consequences of, the same _laissez-faire_ (ie
unregulated) capitalism so beloved of neoliberals.

The left and the right, as a major distinction between either and status-quo-
favoring centrists including neoliberals, have in common the idea that radical
change is necessary; the idea has been expressed in terms I roughly paraphrase
as "capitalism has failed, and in the face of that, we'll have either
socialism or fascism", a statement with which leftists in my circle would not
disagree. The difference between left and right lies not in seeing a need for
change, but partly in means and entirely in desiderata.

~~~
billfruit
Who is the more vocal critic of the disruptive changes that has happened in
our lifetime like the rise of social networks, and gig economy, disruptive
innovation, etc. It appears to me the American left is more vocal than the
right in criticising/opposing changes.

~~~
throwanem
I can't speak for how it appears to you, but to claim that the right has been
uncritical or even less critical than the left, of recent changes in US and
global society, is frankly absurd.

------
say_it_as_it_is
Take note of the source of this article. Religion always shows up during dark
days and creeps its tentacles around the vulnerable.

For many, you're a slave to religion and then you die. People have used
religion to control society way before capitalism became popular. To this day,
it continues to control thoughts and behaviors of billions of people. Those
who have acquired power in religious institutions abuse their power to
influence all sorts of antisocial behavior. Society hasn't only an issue with
capitalism but also religion. There's a strong argument that religion remains
the greater threat.

~~~
scroot
Check out the book the author of this piece has written, "The Enchantments of
Mammon." His very point is that neoliberal thinking has replaced religion in a
vital sense

~~~
cbHXBY1D
I'm about half way through the book and have enjoyed it. IMO it's an instant
classic.

------
ciconia
One of the outcomes of the present crisis is that capital has in a way lost
much of its value. The stock market took a beating, people who bought
apartments for renting on AirBNB now have dead weight properties with possibly
a mortgage to pay.

Meanwhile lots of people with well-paying jobs, like airline pilots for
instance, took a blow putting them on practically the same level as low-paid
workers and gig workers.

If this crisis continues for a long-enough period of time, it might just bring
about a substantial reorientation of the global economy, and perhaps a new
balance between capital and labor.

