
The fishy ingredient in beer that bothers vegetarians - bhum
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37350233
======
Nursie
The skewed view given in the article is hilarious.

"Nobody really wants to advertise that they filter their beer through dead
fish"

Well that would be because they don't. Isinglass has a long history of use in
beer and wine, and is a refined collagen. If you don't want animal products in
beer, awesome, go for it. The slightly hysterical language is unnecessary
though.

\-- edit -- Another technique sometimes used is to fine with beef gelatin...
Not sure how widespread this is commercially, but it seems relatively popular
with homebrewers. Vegetarians do need to be careful with beer.

~~~
fennecfoxen
> Vegetarians do need to be careful with beer.

Vegetarians _may wish to be careful_ with beer. Some vegetarians aren't
ideological/religious about it, and some that are draw lines in different
places.

~~~
Nursie
Quite right, people are vegetarian for a variety of reasons, and draw the line
in different place!

It's worth noting that good results can be achieved with proper temperature
control and irish moss, isinglass is not always needed. Also many/most keg
beers are filtered rather than fined.

~~~
JustUhThought
Vegans, on the other hand, draw a very simple line, with very simple (and
powerful) rationale.

~~~
undersuit
Yes, Vegans have the moral highground and none of their dietary choices are
detrimental to cute little animals.

------
mrob
"Ask somebody to list the classic ingredients of beer and the chances are they
will come back with: hops, malt, barley and water, with a bit of yeast thrown
in for good measure."

It seems strange listing both "malt" and "barley". Malt is just partially
sprouted barley (or occasionally other grains). In most beers all the barley
is malted. Some beers do contain both malted and unmalted barley, for example
Guinness, but unmalted barley can make beer cloudy so it's usually only used
in dark beers.

------
CannisterFlux
Is this something unique to British-brewed beers? According to
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isinglass](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isinglass)
"Isinglass finings are widely used as a processing aid in the British brewing
industry to accelerate the fining, or clarification, of beer". I cannot recall
ever seeing anything like this on the ingredients lists of cans from other
countries (e.g. French or Spanish beers), but maybe it doesn't count as an
ingredients for some reason or maybe other countries use something worse to
clear the beer.

~~~
creshal
Apparently in Germany it fell out of use – mechanical filtration systems are
better and cheaper nowadays –, and is only used for some traditional wines
(and possibly beers).

However, it is not considered an ingredient, and so does not need to be listed
on the bottles.

~~~
franze
In germany there is something called "Reinheitsgebot" \- the oldest (1516)
food law in existence (if you don't count religious "laws"). It states that
you can only use water, barley and hops for beer production. So no fish in
german beer.

~~~
Nursie
Is that still the law?

Also, it may not be considered an ingredient so much as a tool or technique...

~~~
tobltobs
It isn't a law anymore. But I do not know one beer brewery which doesn't still
brew according to it. However, the food industry is usually quite creative in
bending the rules...

~~~
Nursie
From a quick googling - it looks like finings were allowed, as they aren't
strictly an ingredient.

------
colinramsay
In the UK there's a definite sentiment that a cloudy pint is a bad or off
pint. I've seen a few breweries that specifically label their beer as
"unfined" to make sure people know what to expect.

I do find the slight distaste of fish bladders in this article a bit baffling
though.

~~~
talldan
Not sure I agree with that. There's the same attitude pretty much everywhere,
its not any more prevalent in the UK. Lager the whole world over has the same
sort of clarity.

In fact, the UK has a stronger craft beer and real ale scene than many other
countries, so I'd say there are a lot of people here willing to drink a cloudy
glass.

It's much more likely that the continued use of Isinglass is due to tradition,
and no great desire to change an existing product/process.

~~~
forlulz
For a long time, in the UK at least, clarity just is more visually appealing.
In the past the role of the cellarman was much more hands-on; there was a time
where beer was unfined leaving the brewery and fined on delivery once casks
were put in place. Much of this art is disappearing, but it has been a while
that the beer has been designed to be clear. With that, the bottom of casks
are murky with yeast (since filtering is uncommon) and isinglass - which may
make you ill (it tastes bad too) so cloudy beer has been associated with off
beer or the end-of-cask.

I've tried serving a cask wheat beer which was rejected purely by appearance
in the past.

Mind you, things have been changing rapidly in 5/6 years and many breweries
make their tasty products without isinglass (or vegan-friendly alternatives+).
Some choose to be fairly close to pin bright and others less so - depends on
many things like more flocculant house yeast, etc.

I can say that around 5 years ago, a brewery made the decision to switch to
being unfined for flavour - and their products were cloudy then onwards. It
was difficult to 'sell' then, but now it's a commonplace. And yes, a pub did
an informal experiement: flavours were altered with the addition of isinglass
but from a general public opinion was divided in which they preferred (almost
50/50)

\+ not necessarily equivalent. Some products are introduced during the brewing
process, not after

------
1rae
There was lots of new recently about Guinness moving away from isinglass so
that should be vegan friendly soon too!

In wine they also use egg whites to filter it, my dad get some kind of
allergic reaction from these too so we stick to vegan wines in our house.

------
rabboRubble
A close relative is vegan for ethical reasons. I looooooove sending articles
like this to her :-)

------
MrLeftHand
I hope they are OK with dead animals being used to fuel their cars, made into
plastics to pack their stuff, producing the electricity to power their house
and all the stuff in it.

Never heard people being offended by killing plants for food, cutting trees
grinding them into paper or just to have it as a decoration for holidays.

I do agree, if it's only for aesthetics we could actually leave it out and not
kill something for just having clear beer.

In the end everything is made up from the same starstuff as humans, a
squirrel, even the rock in the dirt and the dirt itself. Some of it is
considered living the others not.

Why do I always feel a bit of hypocrisy when it comes to these topics?

~~~
icebraining
What hypocrisy? Many vegans object to killing animals but not the use of
remains of already dead ones.

Use of isinglass requires killing new fish to extract their swim bladders.
Meanwhile, nobody is killing animals to turn them into oil.

Besides, it'd only be hypocrisy if they're judging others. Simply saying "I'd
like my beer free from fish bladders" isn't, even if you think the reason is
ridiculous.

~~~
MrLeftHand
First of all it's free from fish bladders, because you're not consuming that.
That fish might have been killed to end up on the plate of non-vegans. So the
fish was already killed for other reasons in the first place. And following
this thought, then vegans can go and wear clothes made out of skin. Cows,
pigs, sheep aren't killed for their skin in the first place. It's just a
byproduct that is used.

The hypocrisy lies in the valuing lives of certain beings over others.

Or when vegans have carnivorous animals as pets. Feeding them with canned guts
and other leftover parts of animals. And whining about fish bladders in beer.

I will state that from an energetic standpoint it would be great, if the whole
world would go vegan. I have no objections.

But I don't like people going mental on fish bladder whilst they are still
polluting the environment as the others and have to have a rage fit about
literally everything.

Oh and lastly, we don't have to drink beer. Alcohol was needed when humanity
didn't have clean water and we needed alcohol to disinfect it. Now we have all
the water we want. From the tap, or bottled.

You are not required to drink alcohol, at all.

Oh and why aren't they considering the huge impact we have on the environment
just by growing crops for beer. A social, useless beverage. Like the fish are
the only ones who suffer cause of this.

All and all, I'm fine removing fish bladders from the filtering process, but
wont get a hissy fit if they continue to use it.

~~~
icebraining
It seems you're reading a different article, since I see nobody "going mental"
on the one posted, hence there's no point in discussing further.

~~~
MrLeftHand
It's not just this article. This was triggered way back where vegetarians
started to boycott Guinness.

We used this technique for quite a while now and people are shocked.

What about this part: Brewery owner Tim Bosworth, a long-term vegetarian who
went vegan two years ago, said he was shocked when he first learned about the
ingredient.

Really? A brewery owner finds out how he makes clear beer?

And he is shocked? Just imagine how shocked he will be when he finds out how
much damage he makes to the environment by brewing beer.

And this: "It's kind of disgusting to think about, even to people who eat
meat, and it's something that's not talked about," he said.

It is not. I for one, think if you kill an animal you might as well utilize
all of it. Skin for clothing, meat for eating, bones for tools and jewelry,
swim bladder for beer cleaning. That animal shouldn't die for nothing.

But for the third time. I agree to get rid of the fish bladder, because we
have substitutes for it, which might be even better. But let's not grab one
particular problem with the whole brewing industry and the rising alcohol
consumption issue.

I might be wrong, maybe starting the change through our beer will lead us to a
balanced natural lifestyle.

~~~
icebraining
_Really? A brewery owner finds out how he makes clear beer?_

Nobody said he firstly learned about it after becoming a brewery owner.

The rest of your points are just disagreements, which are certainly valid, but
don't point to hypocrisy or "people going mental".

~~~
MrLeftHand
Yeah, maybe hypocrisy is not the right word here.

I still feel they are making a big problem out of it just because some people
have different eating habits.

