
60% of male managers now say they're uncomfortable mentoring women - bubmiw
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/60-male-managers-now-apos-183717869.html
======
anon77887
I'm still getting over a situation which occurred a month ago, and as it
stands I will probably have to leave my job.

I hired a female contractor engineer (in the UK contractors are paid daily,
supposed to be easy to hire/fire), my manager is also female. 2 weeks after
the engineer started, I knew she wouldn't be able to stay in the team because
her work was not good (she was spending a lot of time chatting around, and not
producing good quality code). Everybody complains to me that my engineer is
not performing well, but my manager makes me keep her. A month later my
manager asks for a meeting with me, and says that my contractor has been
complaining about micro-management, and that it can be seen as bullying or
harassment. Because of that I leave for 2 weeks, and it takes another month to
get rid of the contractor.

Learnings: I actually handled the situation very well, but I suffered a lot
from the way my manager handled the situation. I have myself managed, hired
and fired dozens of people in my career. Yet as soon as it was a girl, the
rules of the game completely changed, and it didn't matter who was right or
wrong. No matter how much I want to be inclusive and how much I want to give
equal rights to everybody, other people (and even females) don't see it that
way, and still want to make a distinction between sexes.

~~~
thecolorblue
Referring to her as a girl is not helping your case.

~~~
laresistance
What is the opposite of a guy, then?

~~~
true_religion
A gal actually.

But considering the nature of using dimunitive forms with regards to women, I
would just call her a woman unless we are in very casual company.

------
shakna
I can understand the reluctance, up to a point.

I'm male, I've been accused of sexual abuse, and it was thrown out because it
became exceedingly clear that it never happened. That was extremely unpleasant
to go through, and I'd rather never go through it again.

However, it hasn't had an ongoing effect on my relationships with women, just
the one woman. I'm still more than happy to work with my coworkers regardless
of their sex, and I'm more than happy to guide anyone who happens to fall
under my leadership.

Anybody accused is first judged by the audience. A certain amount of guilt is
assumed. That you let yourself into a potentially compromising situation, or
you sought out the situation.

And I imagine the higher you are up a managerial chain, the higher the stakes
are when you get accused.

There is a human cost, even if "nothing comes of it".

I imagine many of these managers are terrified of the ordeal, of lawyers, they
don't know if the company will support them until a judgement is made or kick
them to the curb. Of the effect it may have on their family, where they might
already have strained relationships with their spouses.

They don't want to potentially risk it, because the power dynamics at play are
not in their favour from the outset. The system is biased to find fault,
rather than first determine if there was fault.

At the same time, we can't cut the authority of the system in any way - the
people it protects, who genuinely need protection, often are already in a
power imbalance of their own.

The fears are justified to an extent, but the simple truth it comes down to
is... You're a manager. It is your responsibility to be responsible for those
under you. If you can't be, then perhaps a management position is not
appropriate for you. Perhaps you need to learn to thrive in a different role.
Harsh, certainly, but as the environment stands, ignoring those under your
care will only help to promote an environment where women are once again
second-class citizens.

~~~
roenxi
> The fears are justified to an extent, but the simple truth it comes down to
> is... You're a manager. It is your responsibility to be responsible for
> those under you.

A lot of people aren't squeaky clean paragons of virtue in everything they do
in combination with being secure and confident in their position in the
corporate hierarchy. So your suggestion seems to be boiling down to 'figure it
out'. What is your fallback if the required behaviors are complicated or hard
to figure out? Men-women relationships are fundamentally asymmetrical and
unbalanced, and it is the case that most people are poor communicators.

There is an underlying theme to these conversations that everyone should have
a basic expectation that they can come to work and enjoy a safe, respectful
work environment. That applies to managers just as much as subordinates - if
companies are going to act on accusations then they need very clear policy on
how much evidence is needed to put a manager's career at risk.

Unless the state of the field is very clear, it isn't reasonable to tell the
managers that their role is to put themselves at risk professionally and work
it out as they go. The conversation needs to be more detailed about what,
exactly, the managers are expected to do outside the formal frameworks and
what level of evidence is needed for them to get into trouble.

~~~
shakna
> A lot of people aren't squeaky clean paragons of virtue in everything they
> do in combination with being secure and confident in their position in the
> corporate hierarchy.

Absolutely. It's why I tried to humanise the difficulty of the manager's
position. Management is hard enough, without being hyper aware of a culture
where actions of all kinds can be easily misconstrued. Hell, getting someone a
coffee in the morning can be considered dangerous.

> So your suggestion seems to be boiling down to 'figure it out'.

I'm afraid I can't offer a suggestion for someone trying to figure things out.

All I can say is, if it becomes clear to you that you can't figure out, if you
can't find the right balance and those fears are stopping you from doing part
of your job, specifically leading women...

... Then maybe you shouldn't be, at least until you do work things out. If
you're becoming a problem, and can't find any other solution, then it's
probably best for everyone, including yourself, that you aren't in that
situation anymore.

Don't take the stress, and don't hurt your colleagues.

------
6Wc1p3KH
Throwaway for obvious reasons.

I'm not a manager, but I eat lunch/dinner one on one with men far more than I
eat lunch/dinner with women, and it's because I try not to be a creep. I try
to manage bias and I try to be aware of when I might be doing something for a
coworker just because she's female and pretty, and unfortunately that means
that when it is actually genuinely appropriate to grab dinner together and
talk about our work I second-guess myself. When it does happen, it's usually a
more senior coworker taking the initiative first.

No idea how to stop doing it other than time and experience. If you've got
tips, throw them out there.

~~~
kthejoker2
Don't make it a dinner or drinks? Just meet and discuss work 1 on 1. That's
the surest way to communicate the intentions of the meeting.

Also: do you offer to mentor the "not pretty" females? That statement alone in
your post shows a remarkable immaturity in you about women in the workplace.

~~~
6Wc1p3KH
> Don't make it a dinner or drinks? Just meet and discuss work 1 on 1. That's
> the surest way to communicate the intentions of the meeting.

The problem here is non-formal social opportunities that aren't meetings and
don't take the place of meetings. If there's solid work-related content to
discuss then of course you can meet with someone and discuss it, but that's
not the same as grabbing dinner with someone when you're both working late and
chattering about career-related stuff.

> Also: do you offer to mentor the "not pretty" females? That statement alone
> in your post shows a remarkable immaturity in you about women in the
> workplace.

Of course I do, I mentor anyone who asks to be mentored. Formal work
relationships like mentoring aren't a problem because they're explicitly
endorsed by the company and usually facilitated by a manager or initiated by
the mentee. I worry that I'm being too condescending as a mentor because of
implicit bias, or overcompensating in the direction of not giving enough help,
but that's a different problem.

"Am I doing this because she's pretty?" is relevant to the conversation about
this article because creepy behavior by men who are attracted to women seems
to be a core complaint of professional women and a part of the #MeToo
movement, and men are asked to be aware of their own biases and motivations
and actions to try to fix this.

~~~
random123987
> The problem here is non-formal social opportunities that aren't meetings and
> don't take the place of meetings. If there's solid work-related content to
> discuss then of course you can meet with someone and discuss it, but that's
> not the same as grabbing dinner with someone when you're both working late
> and chattering about career-related stuff.

This is not female-vs-male problem. You will get the same kind of trouble when
you smoke with colleagues while there is a non-smoker in the team, or when
team member has kids and cannot stay late with you, or when there is a remote
coworker, or just some people on the team enjoy watching football and some
not.

Yes, you do need to think when and how you discuss work related stuff. And
your friendly relations with someone on the team affect team dynamic.

Generalizing it to "working with women is harder" is plain wrong.

------
jonnybgood
A female coworker of mine just recently shared with me that she was treated
like this in her previous workplace. She felt alienated and as if she was some
kind of harlot ready to ruin the lives of her male coworkers. She’s happy to
not be in that workplace anymore.

~~~
mclightning
> harlot, that's the first time I see that used in a sentence outside of
> dictionary :D (not a native eng speaker)

------
random123987
That's funny how a comment thread in topics like this explodes into its own
version of Me Too. The only "slight" difference is that MeToo talks about
actual rape which happened, while this version is about "feeling uncomfortable
while imagining things".

Nevertheless, I do have a certain empathy for the people who talk about their
fears here. I have mine too. Again there is this small difference: while you
fear that a certain accusation(which happens how often?) can ruin your
carrier, I have a fear that your fear can ruin my carrier with >60% chance.
Without possibility for me to get accused explicitly, leaving me no chance to
defend myself.

While I'm taking a moment to feel your fears, can I ask you to do the same for
mine?

------
simonblack
It's the same sort of problem with males not wishing to be classified as
'paedophiles' and children.

Once upon a time, I would have tried to help distressed children. These days I
walk straight past them. Let the next female do the consoling.

------
lostmymind66
This is not surprising. We are in a hyper-sensitive society now where many
people are accused and lose their entire career and possibly marriage through
the court of public opinion.

As a result, it would be smart of most men in these positions to either not
mentor at all or always have someone else in the room. I wouldn't be surprised
if companies started having everything recorded at some point.

The real problem is that false accusers won't face many repercussions compared
to the accused. Some men accused are even found to have done nothing and it
doesn't matter. People still believe they did something.

~~~
dev_dull
> _I wouldn 't be surprised if companies started having everything recorded at
> some point._

More and more I’m seeing managers have their 1:1s in public areas, such as
cafeterias or outdoor seating.

~~~
vidanay
Where everyone has their noise cancelling headphones on. Sure, it stops the
vast majority of physical possibilities, but doesn't do much for verbal.

------
16e6471bd4b781
Based on the tenor this has already taken, I’m replying with a throwaway.

I have changed my behavior around women subordinates. It sucks, but that’s the
reality. At this point I’m as concerned with the appearance of impropriety as
I am false accusations. I know who I am and I trust myself. Everyone else? Not
so much anymore.

~~~
ianai
Changed how?

------
dvfjsdhgfv
It's because if you get burnt once, you'll always be on guard. It takes one
abuser to change the lives of several people at once.

------
sfink
The study is fine. It's reporting some statistics that I find believable.
Statistics on men's _worries_ , mind, not on occurrences of actual harm.

The reactions I'm seeing are... not helpful for the most part.

One reaction is that this is a horrible thing because it is unfair. I agree
that it is an unfortunate part of our current reality. So is the possibility
of being forced into uncomfortable situations, or more generally, being
sexually harassed when you're a blameless woman in the workplace. I don't see
a way of resolving that unfairness without _any_ negative impact on blameless
men.

We can certainly try to work together in good faith to minimize negative
impact while creating positive change. But wailing and moaning about the
balance of power tipping slightly away from us (I'm a white male) is not
acting in good faith. It's just plain entitlement.

The #metoo movement's direct impact puts me at more risk than before. And I've
taken advantage of my cultural immunity more than once in my life. I'm not
proud of some things in my past, and I'm not free from the possibility of
doing more things in the future. I have problematic biases and attitudes. But
I'd rather live in, and have my kids grow up in, the sort of world that #metoo
is leading us towards than the world that (I hope) we're leaving behind.

Besides, some of this abject fear over being accused of _the things that we
've actually done_ would be lessened if the patriarchal walls of silence and
secrecy were torn down so we could all see what is actually happening in the
world, rather than the whitewashed appearance of perfect honor and respect
that we all pretend is real. I don't think my personal lapses would be judged
too harshly if compared against reality. But they look pretty bad if compared
to all the guys professing purity and innocence -- because we as a society
have somehow fooled ourselves into believing them.

60% of male managers are nervous about mentoring women. What percentage of
working women are nervous about what their male coworkers might do one at any
point in the future?

And fuck that, what percentage have already experienced worse than what a male
manager might realistically experience from a complaint about his behavior in
a 1-1? And don't bother pulling out the "but what if absolutely nothing
happened but the woman accused him unfairly and he lost his job and wife and
kids and had to live under a bridge until he killed himself??!" unless you
have some solid evidence that this happens more often than women get raped by
acquaintances.

Or if you don't like that comparison, maybe look at the number of women who
lose jobs or careers or get blacklisted as a result of someone else harassing
_them_.

~~~
samhain
>And fuck that, what percentage have already experienced worse than what a
male manager might realistically experience from a complaint about his
behavior in a 1-1? And don't bother pulling out the "but what if absolutely
nothing happened but the woman accused him unfairly and he lost his job and
wife and kids and had to live under a bridge until he killed himself??!"
unless you have some solid evidence that this happens more often than women
get raped by acquaintances.

If the percentage of women that experienced problems were actually really low,
and if rape basically didn't happen in the work place, how would that change
the way we should have this discussion?

It sounds like you're saying women raped by acquaintances and women having
problems in the work place are related. I've always interpreted it as they are
acquaintances through friend groups, not necessarily through work. I guess
it'd be interesting to see a study of what percentage the acquaintances are
known through work explicitly, then maybe that could shed some light on where
the tensions come from.

~~~
sfink
No, and I probably shouldn't have derailed it by mentioning rape. The point is
that people react to the possibility of accusation by thinking up the most
extreme scenarios. So I'm saying that if you're going to base it on extreme
scenarios for men, you need to compare it to extreme scenarios for women --
which happen more often in practice, so can't be faulted for being _more_
extreme.

It would be more useful to not use the extreme scenarios when working through
this stuff. They're really bad, but rare, and so not all that relevant.

------
atdt
Sexual harassment and gender-based discrimination are real and urgent issues,
but the path forward will not be lit by Facebook COO Cheryl Sandberg and
SurveyMonkey marketing material. She has no moral credibility.

------
threatofrain
It's Vice President Michael Pence's personal policy to never meet 1 on 1 with
a woman unless it's with his wife.

~~~
faissaloo
He has the right idea.

------
itsaidpens
This is bullshit. Don’t be a creep. Period, end of story. Hire and promote
fairly. You won’t have a problem.

~~~
WillPostForFood
It didn't say they were uncomfortable hiring or promoting women, it said
mentoring which implies a more personal relationship. Specific example from
the article, which doesn't seem like bullshit:

 _nine times more likely to be hesitant to travel with a junior woman for work
than a junior man, and six times more likely to be hesitant to have a work
dinner with a junior woman than a junior man._

This is, unfortunately, a rational response to the current climate.

~~~
untog
Why is it a rational response? I've travelled with female co-workers before,
it's not as if the company made us share a bed. We were just two people
travelling. I don't really understand how the "current climate" would make me
rethink that.

~~~
briandear
Can you prove you didn’t proposition her during the trip? Remember, she
doesn’t have to prove anything to be taken seriously. You, however, have to
prove a negative and that’s very hard to do.

~~~
untog
If I travel with a male coworker can I prove I don't proposition him? Gay
people exist, you know. This isn't any different.

~~~
WillPostForFood
If you are gay, and your gay male coworker accuses you of something it looks
worse than if you are a woman, and a gay male accuses you. So, yes, of course
it is different. Look at this way, a compatible sexual couple is at higher
risk of an accusation than non compatible sexual couple.

~~~
untog
But a trustworthy employee won't do any of those things, no matter the gender.
If you have an untrustworthy employee you have a whole other problem. They
could accuse you of making a pass at them, or of stealing from them, bullying
them... the list is endless really. I don't get the preoccupation with
sexuality in that context.

------
Lendal
So 60% of male managers admit they aren't good managers. Good. Step aside
then, and let others more capable than you have a chance to prove themselves.

~~~
ecwilson
Male manager here. This is not at all hard to believe.

------
benatkin
It seems like the path forward is clear. Sandberg:

> "The thing is, it's not enough," she says. "It's really important to not
> harass anyone, but that's pretty basic. We also need to not be ignored."

There's no need to walk back any part of MeToo to solve this problem, just to
keep pushing forward.

~~~
educationdata
No. Real world is not that simple. Certain things are only considered harass
between man and woman, but not between same sex. For example, asking to meet
(drink, sports, etc.) after work. So there's a choice between either "ignore"
or "harass".

Yes, you don't have to do these, but some people just like buddyhood kind of
binding more than others.

~~~
benatkin
That's a problem for the managers to solve, and they can solve it by reducing
the number of business dinners they do with men, if they can't figure out a
good way to do business dinners with women. The work hours and the options for
dining near the office might mean that it's too difficult to have a work
dinner that isn't too cozy, and if it is, so be it. It's entirely their
responsibility to have management practices that aren't sexist.

~~~
stale2002
Ok, but thats just screwing over everyone, right? Is that really the kind of
"equality" that we want?

~~~
benatkin
No, the ideal is an open and transparent workplace, where you can go to dinner
with anybody and not worry about getting in trouble, because there are casual
enough places to eat, where you don't feel like you're on a date when you have
dinner with someone there, unless you're Mike Pence. And where that isn't
available, you find another activity for mentorship besides a work dinner. If
your suburban office park only has one dining place nearby and it has candles,
do a work lunch instead, with food you brought.

~~~
stale2002
Sure that's all well and good.

But what you suggested was that people change their behavior regarding other
coworking relationships that are otherwise working fine for both parties.

If both parties are totally comfortable with whatever dinner plans that they
have with each other, then who are you to go in and tell them not to?

You suggested that men change their mentorship behavior that is otherwise
working fine with their male mentees.

~~~
benatkin
There needs to be a shift towards environments that are appropriate for
meetings between people who are likely to have sexual tension between them, as
well as meetings between those who aren't. Otherwise any time someone starts a
new mentorship activity, they'll have to think it through, and that in itself
is going to bring up questions that aren't appropriate in the workplace. For
example: "Should I take Joe to the bowling alley with me alone? Will he worry
that I'm going to compliment him on how strong his arms are? If I drink will
it feel awkward for him if he doesn't drink?" I think it's better to skip all
that and just keep it professional.

~~~
stale2002
Ok, now let's say that I am a normal person, who is also dealing with another
normal person, and both of us are able to easily navigate these hypothetical
situations while also not being extremely professional?

~~~
sfink
Then go ahead? If there isn't a problem, and you both know there isn't a
problem, then... there isn't a problem?

I may be missing your point. If you mean that two men shouldn't have to stop
meeting at a bar when they're both comfortable with it, simply because there's
a woman on the team who wouldn't be comfortable in the same situation, well...
let's say your team has a habit of meeting at a Brazilian steakhouse to make
important decisions. Then you hire Dave's brother Jerry, who is a strict
ethical vegetarian. Don't you think it might be a decent idea to pick a
different restaurant? Jerry swears he's willing to come along to the
steakhouse and bring his own food, though you notice he looks pretty queasy
and never touches his food the whole time you're there.

Or maybe you think it's fine if he quit if he's so uncomfortable, your team
just isn't right for women oops I mean vegetarians and they'd be better off
working somewhere else.

~~~
stale2002
My point here is that there are these people out there called "normal
individuals", who are able to navigate social situations without being
extremely robotically formal.

If you are the kind of person who does not have to social skills and awareness
to navigate these kinds of normal social interactions, with other normal
humans beings, then fine, silo yourself off, metaphorically with extremely
impersonally relationships with others in which you act 100% "professionally"
all the time with the people who you spend half of your waking life with.

But the rest of us are able to handle such situations easily.

------
tehjoker
Alternative headline: 60% of males rethinking how they interact with women
after decades because protests broke through and raised consciousness. Change
isn't comfortable, it's not supposed to be. It's only supposed to be just.

This goes for technical skills and moral ones too. You feel bad until you're
better.

------
walru
Regardless of skill or experience, they seem to be getting promoted over other
more qualified individuals, anyway. At least that's what I've noticed in my
places of work over the last four years. I'd hate to tell you how many of
those places went under as it's all anecdotal. I am however getting a little
put out by people around me not getting promoted on merit, but on optics.

~~~
unknownkadath
When an incompetent man gets promoted it's all "Peter Principle, brogrammer,
Dilbert joke, hurr durr."

When an incompetent woman gets promoted, it's because she's a woman.

~~~
walru
Parden? I'm talking about people getting promoted into positions they aren't
qualified for and sinking companies. I really don't care about your sex, race
or who you like to invite into bed. I'd rather be on a winning team.

~~~
unknownkadath
Maybe a little data might help your point be taken more seriously.

All kinds of idiots get promoted above their capacities. Women aren't special
in that regard.

