
Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued - llambda
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
======
bhousel
Like many others in the comments, I disagree with the whole "Don't be the
first to state a number" strategy.

Being weaselly about your number is a very noob thing to do in a negotiation.
A skilled negotiator will seize on this and anchor the negotiations in at a
very low rate. You need to know your number ahead of time, and drop it on them
like it's the most natural thing in the world.

Your initial offer should be high but not ridiculous. (Unless you really are
_that_ busy with work and you don't want the job anyway, then give them a
ridiculous number, and see what they say. Sometimes they'll say yes anyway).

The number could be 2x whatever you make currently, or 2x whatever you think
they will pay, but the important thing is that it's high, and you say it with
confidence and act like it's reasonable. It's far better to work your way down
from (your) high number, than up from (their) low number.

~~~
joezydeco
I'm curious how this should all work when working with a recruiter.

I've come across a number of interesting positions that are available only
through these guys. But we never get 15 minutes into a conversation before
they're asking about salary history. The implied message is that the number
you give is going to decide if your resume gets passed onward or not. So going
too high, say 2X, would certainly kill your chances.

I've tried the "let's get to a fit before negotiating salary" and I actually
had one recruiter say "sorry, this is how we roll". I dumped that guy, but it
keeps coming up.

I know the OP's advice was to avoid this route and get to the hiring manager.
Just curious what to do about these people.

~~~
bhousel
You don't really negotiate with a recruiter, in that sense. When they are
asking you your salary information, it's not negotiation, it's fishing for
information -- they want to know whether continuing the conversation is a
waste of time or not.

Recruiters can be useful because they should know the upper salary bound for
the position that they are trying to fill. Just ask them directly how high the
client can go, and they'll probably volunteer this information. Act
underwhelmed and ask for a little more (or end the conversation there if it's
seems like a waste of time). The recruiter will go back to whatever HR manager
and either get a "yes there's some flexibility" or "no it's set in stone".

Most recruiters are the "putting warm bodies in front of desks" kind. This
kind of recruiter doesn't really give a crap about you or the client, they
just want to make the deal, but a high salary for you works out well for them
also. Filling positions this way can be a sign that the client is desperate.

There is another kind of recruiter that doesn't work this way. They're rare
and they only do talent search for hard-to-fill executive and consulting
positions. They are more about building networks and relationships.

~~~
joezydeco
What really threw up the red flag for me was that he didn't want to only know
what I earned at my current position, but the 3-4 previous positions before
that, including my reasons for leaving each job.

I can understand he wants to find A-type winners that are on a rising arc
instead of slumming for a job, but that took a lot of balls to ask.

~~~
rdouble
What's he recruiting for? Banks and jobs that require security clearance often
require this sort of background info.

~~~
joezydeco
High-frequency trading firm. I didn't think that needed bank-level clearance
either, but maybe the hiring firm stayed on the cautious side of background
checks.

------
Timothee
One thing I often find in salary negotiation advice are lines that go like
this "At my last company, I increased sales by 3% by $YADDA_YADDA".

The thing is that I can't really think of nice metrics like this, and am
surprised that a lot of engineers would find something as significant as sales
numbers.

For one thing, the further your metric is from strict revenue, the harder it
is to put a price tag on it. A sales number is easy, but if you optimized some
part of the code somewhere, it becomes much more fuzzy and longer to explain.
Sure, Patrick also pushes people to get jobs were your contribution is more
directly correlated to revenues, but not everyone will want a job like that,
and until you do get one, you can't use that.

The other thing is that I feel it's easier to consider a sales person as
directly responsible for a significant increase in revenue for their market.
But engineers work in teams, so saying "I increased sales by x%" is hard to
justify: what about the Product Manager that spec'ed it out? What about the
rest of the engineering team that worked on that change, reviewed it, pushed
it to production? If you're the only one doing all that, sure, but that's
rarely the case.

So, what's a good way to come up with relevant, justified metrics like that?

~~~
lutorm
Coming from academia, where we don't make money, we spend money, I wondered
this too. I can come up with a badass Monte Carlo algorithm that does our
computation in half the time, but there's absolutely no way to connect this to
any monetary value because the end product isn't about money.

~~~
patio11
Vis-a-vis your institution, get good at grant writing. You don't make money in
academia by doing research, you make money by doing grant proposals.

Vis-a-vis the funding agencies, they generally have a set of concerns which
are non-monetary, too, so meet them where they are.

~~~
lutorm
I meant coming from an academic job to a non-academic one. I'm doing well on
the grant front, but I don't think that'll help me in getting a "normal" job.

~~~
SatvikBeri
There are three main ways for people to show their business value:

1\. Absolute ability to add $ to the bottom line

2\. Relative ability compared to others

3\. Absolute technical skills

Academics transitioning to business do well focusing on 2 and 3, especially 2.
If you show me that you were the top 1% of the top 1%, I'm going to be
impressed.

One quick concrete example: a friend of mine got the top scholarship for
graduate students at her school. This was worth maybe $7,000-not a huge amount
in business terms. But it marked her as one of the two best out of 10,000
graduate students.

Most people would just put the name of the grant, but what's impressive is the
fact that only .05% of applicants got the grant. Once she put that as the
first line on her resume, she got significantly more call-backs.

------
jwegan
The suggestion to not give a number first is awful. You may not want to give
your previous salary history, but you most certainly do want to give the first
number. You should do your research and figure out what the company usually
pays for someone of your experience (checkout glassdoor.com or ask around) and
state a number that is on the very high end of reasonable. It is always easier
to try and stand your ground than fight your way uphill from a low offer.

The only case you might not want to state the first number is if you can't
find our what the company typically pays.

~~~
VMG
Scientific research agrees with you. The concept is called _anchoring_

 _Anchoring research helps clarify the question of whether to make the first
offer in a negotiation: by making the first offer, you will anchor the
negotiation in your favor. In fact, Mussweiler and I have shown that making
the first offer affords a bargaining advantage. In our studies, we found that
the final outcome of a negotiation is affected by whether the buyer or the
seller makes the first offer. Specifically, when a seller makes the first
offer, the final settlement price tends to be higher than when the buyer makes
the first offer._

<http://hbswk.hbs.edu/archive/4302.html>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring>

The whole article could use a lot more science. I suggest reading "59 Seconds"
from Richard Wiseman.

~~~
damoncali
I was under the impression that putting out the first number anchors the
negotiation _around that number_ , not necessarily in one's favor. For
example, if you think you want to earn 100k, and they were hoping to keep you
under 125k, throwing out a number of $110k is not giving you the advantage, as
they may have thrown out a first number of $115k if you had let them.

~~~
kevinh
This is more reason to research the company's salaries up front. If they were
planning to lowball you and you put out a high number, it may help you, but if
you don't know anything about the company, it may be more beneficial to let
them make the first move (unless you have multiple options open and are
willing to say a high number).

~~~
vaksel
the problem is that salaries aren't uniform for all companies.

so if you go by glassdoor, you'll see that some engineers make $40K/yr, while
others make $150K/yr in the same area.

If you go by listed salaries on job descriptoins, once again on monster.com
you might see jobs posted at $100-150K/yr...while others, for pretty much the
same exact requirement list/job description you'll see $50K

The good thing though, is that if you ask for more than they can afford,
they'll almost always tell you their real number. So just ask for 1/3 more,
i.e. if you want 90K, ask for $120K, then watch them come up with a 100-110K
counter offer....and who knows, you might just get that $120K

------
badclient
Honestly, my top advice for negotiating better: interview _lots_ and never
feel like if you don't take this job, you won't get a better one. The
techniques are important. But if you don't have a solid foundation in any
negotiation(options and leverage), you're fighting an uphill battle.

As it stands, patio11's advice seems to be more applicable to people who have
very few job options. I'd argue most people on HN would have multiple options,
even if they are shy about activating them(by applying/interviewing).

~~~
funkah
> interview lots and never feel like if you don't take this job, you won't get
> a better one

Right. One thing my dad taught me is that if they want to sell it more than
you want to buy it (or vice versa), you win. If you're feeling insecure about
your value, I'd say that matters a lot more than, say, who throws out a number
first.

------
feralchimp
While I don't agree with all of the article's advice, it gets the most
fundamental point right: Stop feeling guilty about asking for market
compensation.

Being a nice person has nothing to do with it. It's _not your fault_ that
you're worth more than they're offering out of the gate. It's _the market's
fault_.

Good luck out there.

~~~
erikb
To get what you're worth, you should actually ask for more. The other one will
assume you did and try to bargain you down hard anyway.

~~~
feralchimp
I have never been in a salary negotiation in which I was bargained down hard,
which may mean I'm a terrible person to ask for negotiation advice.

But not _entirely_ , because the "assume the counterparty is a dick" technique
is actually kind of pointlessly lossy, even if it works out in aggregate over
the market. It's been a long time since I negotiated a salary, but in a few
recent contracting scenarios I've just set a price that I knew was fair, stuck
to it, and when necessary explained to the prospect _why_ it was fair.

People are either willing to listen to reason or they're not worth dealing
with.

~~~
erikb
Actually, that sounds reasonable!

From my experience a good bargainer will always win more then you, but he will
often also help you in ways you didn't imagine were possible. Because he is
good at finding what is really important to people and how to get things done.
If he wants something from you, he will also give you solutions to some of the
harder problems you have in exchange. So I don't think a strong bargainer is a
dick.

Of course there are people who bargain to trick you. And even normally fair
and strong bargainers will sometimes use their powers more to their advantages
then they should. But in my eyes it's not the common situation. Between
sticking-to-the-first-number and tricking-each-other-out-of-money there is a
big range of good and bad bargaining which actually solves the good purpose of
finding each others priorities, a good range for the value bargained, and a
result both parties can agree to.

------
run4yourlives
The best way to avoid saying the salary number is to simply ask the question
of them first. In other words: "What salary range does this role warrant in
your company?"

That frames the conversation really, really well. For one, if the two ideas
are severely mismatched, you don't waste your time. If the number is low, you
can make note of it then and explain why you are so much better than that. If
the answer is non-committal, you've got a wonderful spot to review the role in
detail and "come up with the number together".

If the number is high, you can reset your mid-point and focus more on their
"horrible" vacation allowance that they'd need to correct to bring you on. :)

------
lrobb
"Applicant: Great, I can’t wait to get started. Getting me that extra $4,000
would make this a much easier decision. Considering that this is conceivably
worth millions to you, we’d be silly not to do business with each other."

I think the problem is that you don't have a verifiable skill that will
increase sales by X%... Because if you did, then you'd be silly for only
asking for an extra $4000 based off of increasing sales by millions.

~~~
byoung2
_I think the problem is that you don't have a verifiable skill that will
increase sales by X%... Because if you did, then you'd be silly for only
asking for an extra $4000 based off of increasing sales by millions._

I think software engineers can come up with a few skills that makes them more
valuable than other applicants by a quantifiable amount. In my case, I have
extensive experience with streaming audio and video across web and mobile
devices. Having built and maintained the streaming video infrastructure that
powers RushLimbaugh.com, JimRome.com, CoastToCoastAM.com, BobAndTom.com as
well as their corresponding mobile sites and apps while I worked at
ClearChannel, I have the experience to cut months off of similar projects for
my current company. That alone was worth the 37.5% increase over my last
salary to them.

------
bryanh
I think a lot of what Patrick does well in this article is "reframing" the
situation. I find once you get out of the "I don't want to offend them and
lose my shot" mindset, negotiation and other "money talk" becomes really
routine.

I wonder if there is value in creating "mock hiring sessions" that require you
to negotiate your pay up. There are millions of "mock interviews" done in
colleges every year, why not go that extra step? It seems learning to reframe
the situation is easy enough to do given the proper coaching.

------
corin_
_"If you’re sane only about 25% or so of your gross income is subject to the
results of real estate negotiations. Close to 100% is subject to the results
of salary negotiations. Thus, your salary negotiations are probably going to
be the most important financial decisions you will ever make."_

That's pretty irrelevant really, what's relevent is the difference it can
make. First, if you negotiate a 20% discount on the 25% you're doing better
than negotiating a 1% pay rise for the 100%. Second, a negotiated salary
recurrs annually, it's not a one-off sum. So yes the conclusion is right, but
for the wrong reason.

~~~
yariang
The 25% he alludes to is your recurring mortgage payment, which also happens
annually--monthly, actually. What he means here is that a discount of 5% in
your mortgage negotiations is much less than an increase of 5% in your salary.
So he is right, for the right reason.

~~~
jarek
corin_ is right - salary is recurring, mortgage/real estate purchase is one-
time. You pay off the mortgage with recurring payments, but they are based on
the one-time amount. If you negotiate $10k extra salary, after two years you
will have $20k extra. If you negotiate $10k lower real estate purchase, after
two years you will not have $20k extra. (Technically you will have a little
bit more than $10k extra due to compound interest on smaller principal, but
nowhere near $20k.)

------
rdouble
I'm not convinced by this article that the author has ever done a salary
negotiation.

~~~
brown9-2
The author offers his services to companies as an independent contractor. I
would think a huge amount of that involves rate negotiation.

------
inerte
The part about managers thinking less of you because you do not negotiate is
completely true. Everybody wants an awesome negotiator under them. Just like
if you solve P=NP on the white board on the interview will mark you as the
wizard, negotiating will mark you, right from the interview, as someone who
fights for what he wants, and will fight for what the project/team/company
wants.

~~~
chrisbennet
I upvoted you but I'm not so sure its the negotiation skills that they'll
admire as much as the self confidence in your own market value. Sort of "This
guy is used to getting paid really well, he must be really good."

------
xiaoma
> _"I received a comment that this is untrue for startups by someone today.
> For a funded startup which has enough engineers to warrant a foosball table,
> the company payroll is well north of $100,000 a month."_

I'm 90% sure that was in reference to this post:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3499480>

Our most recent round of funding at the start-up where I'm working was 750k.
([http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/24/smartots-
raises-750000-offe...](http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/24/smartots-
raises-750000-offers-mobile-apps-platform-for-kids/))

That has to cover _everything_ for about half a year, including developers,
artists, lawyers, rent, travel expenses, regulatory costs, etc... And we've
made it go pretty far and will likely raise a much larger round in the near
future. I'm sure everyone at the company would love to be making more money,
especially those who have worked in richer countries. However, even a couple
of developers pushing for the kinds of salaries that pattio11 is would mean
the start-up burns its cash, the founders lose their invested time and money
and worst of all, we don't improve kids' education.

Of course there is always the chance that those two guys have such beastly
skills that they can get us market dominance (and profits or a much larger
investment) before that happens. Would you take that gamble?

Disclosure: I don't speak for the company, I'm not privy to top level strategy
discussions and I don't own any of it or represent it, etc... I do like what
we're doing, though.

~~~
rhizome
The flipside is that maybe the execs aren't good enough to get the kind of
funding necessary to build the company effectively, or that the business idea
(beyond "improving kids' education") is not viable in its current
implementation path.

~~~
xiaoma
One of the founders has successfully sold a start-up in China in the past and
the CTO has sold 2 in the US. The product fit still isn't 100%, though. The
business has gone through a couple of pivots just in the time I've been there.

It should go without saying that _before_ hitting market fit is a terrible
time to take on overly mercenary employees. Goal #1 is to survive off of the
money long enough to reach that point.

~~~
rhizome
Goal #1 should be to get to that point, goal #2 being to be able to pay
someone else to do it. Goal #1 only involves paying someone if you can't do it
yourself, and if that is so, you have to achieve goal #2 to an extent that it
ensures goal #1.

------
alexwolfe
I think there are a lot of people disagreeing with "Don't state the number
first" but it's important to be open to new ideas.

This article is meant to make you stronger and offer some new tricks in the
negotiating process. You're certainly not learning and expanding your game if
you're convinced that you don't need to do anything different.

I think its important to think about what the author is really saying: Can you
find out what cards their holding before they know what cards you have? Can
you? It's tough, its challenging, that's the point.

The more information you have before you start making decision the better
decision you're going to make, period. When you start throwing out numbers a
very big decision has just been made, theres's no going back at that point.

If you're worried they are going to laugh at you, or be offended, they won't
be. This is not a war, it's an interview, a chance to make an introduction and
meet somebody new. Sometimes you can make connections in the interview even if
you end up not taking the job. You're dealing with people, not robots. No one
is out to get you. In fact, they're considering hiring you and working with
you everyday!

The point is learn new tricks and push back a little.

~~~
calibraxis
Interesting point. Also, it really helps to somehow weasel/tap your way into
the hiring side. ;) Even if it's just to see the submissions of applicants.

An important principle of negotiation is knowing their interests as well as
you can. And presenting a representation of yourself which strongly satisfies
those interests.

Basically, all the work is done before the negotiation; the point of
negotiation is where it all comes together and you use all that pressure
you've built up to (politely) bear.

If you have a take-home project, great, you can hit it out of the ballpark by
adding all the professional polish that virtually no other applicant will do —
have it build, solve corner cases, or casually note that it was tested on 3
platforms; whatever's vaguely appropriate. Virtually everyone else cuts some
corner somewhere. Most will submit a minimal answer, to a question which
resembles — but isn't — the take-home question.

To the company struggling to find a good coder, this makes you a drool-worthy
thing to purchase, like the newest Mac. They will calculate what they're
losing in not having your increment of productivity, and that will pressure
their decision.

(That said, I prefer to state the number first as an anchor, because I
research relevant salaries, but whatever. ;)

------
DavidChouinard
patio11 draws some content from his original "Don’t Call Yourself A
Programmer, And Other Career Advice"[1] which you should _definitely_ read.

[1] [http://old.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-
pro...](http://old.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/)

------
ssharp
I think these discussion tend to get a lot of people debating on who should
offer a # first.

I don't think this is a question with a binary answer. Statistically, you may
be able to determine which works better as a whole, but nobody will negotiate
their salary enough times to render a proper sample. I'd guess that treating
each salary negotiation uniquely will produce a higher mean salary than simply
changing the "who says $ first" variable.

------
swanson
Any tips specifically for negotiating a higher raise? Most of the advice is
targeted to the "new job"-salary negotiations.

~~~
patio11
Get attached to the part of the company that makes money, set up the measuring
and politics such that you get credit for increases in the amount of money
they're making, pitch a raise for you as the easiest way for them to get a
repeat performance in the next quarter. Also, since companies have persistent
exploitable inefficiencies about this issue, be prepared to talk to the people
who are actually willing to give you a raise. (i.e. it may not be the people
you currently work for.)

------
lazerwalker
In your guys' experience, how relevant are these tips to someone speaking with
relatively young startups (say, seed or Series A stage)? I know that good
negotiation skills are good negotiation skills however you slice it, but I'm
curious to hear from folks if they've needed to use a different set of tactics
when not dealing with an "HR department" as much as a founder.

------
skrish
@patio11 Thanks for writing such a detailed blog on this.

As I read your rephrasing of questions, I remembered reading this book "In the
line of fire" by Jerry Weissman. There is a concept explained in this called
"Roman Column".

The key message is: Do not answer the question till you fully comprehend the
roman column i.e., the key issue. You can get to your own interpretation of
roman column or ask the person to clarify the question to understand better.
Then paraphrase the question and address the issue head-on focussing on the
roman column.

I found the book to be very interesting with lot of real examples about press
meets & other negotiations.

------
brador
I'll just say be careful when taking free negotiation advice from professional
writers rather than professional negotiators..That's not to take anything away
from patio11 here, just be careful and keep the salt handy.

------
dexen
Details of strategy sure are important, but, above all, _do_ negotiate.

A comment† by <http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jfoster> that really opened
my eyes:

 _> You might also look at it another way, and Google probably will, too. If
you're being considered by Google and you don't negotiate, perhaps they are
the ones making the mistake [by attempting to hire you]._

† <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3496512>

------
tlogan
All negotiations need to end with both parties thinking they are winners. In
that spirit, you need to give a number (high-end) (so called anchoring) so
that other party can feel good when they convince you for less.

Also, other things (i.e., vacations first 6 months, or some small perks)
mention only after you negotiated the salary and pretty much you close the
deal.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
I've never understood advice that talks about negotiating fringe benefits like
vacation time. At best, company policy will prevent those terms from being
negotiated because they're standardized. At worst, you're just going to look
like an entitled asshole from day one if you try to get special treatment. I'd
much rather make up for it in salary negotiation and take the same deal that
your future teammates got.

~~~
sethg
_At best, company policy will prevent those terms from being negotiated
because they're standardized._

If you frame your counteroffer as “I would take this job if you gave me $X
more base salary or Y more vacation days”, then the guy across the table can
decide which option is more offensive to company policy. It’s not your job, as
the applicant, to decide in advance what terms the employer will accept. Your
job is to communicate what you want until you either have a deal or feel
comfortable walking away from the table.

 _At worst, you're just going to look like an entitled asshole from day one if
you try to get special treatment._

Personally, I have better things to do with my time than count up how many
days off each of my co-workers have taken and compare them with the numbers in
the employee handbook.

------
sliverstorm
I always struggle internally with posts like this, or the other one I
remember, "Don't Call Yourself a Programmer". To fully follow the advice
underpinning these pieces, I would generally risk sacrificing a lot of
personal enjoyment in my work in pursuit of money.

I know HN leans strongly towards money whenever money is at hand, but I tend
to lean the other way.

~~~
tintin
You are right. Money is the worst motivation for a job. Money is just a small
part of salary.

------
jrockway
This is all kind of obvious, and I boil it down to: if you're moving to a new
company, they should pay you more than your current job and any other offers.
Ask each company for what you want to make, then let them compete against each
other.

The real difficulty I had in the last round was pricing relocation; is $XX in
New York better than $XX-10% in Seattle?

~~~
jonnathanson
In my experience, most companies will severely lowball on big relocations and
cost of living adjustments. You could be living in the boondocks on $100k a
year, where the cost of living is next to nothing. And then you find a roughly
equivalent job in NYC, where the cost of living is easily 2X or 3X your
current situation. Will the firm in NYC double or treble your salary?
Extremely unlikely. Most will simply anchor to your existing salary, with
perhaps a very miniscule adjustment for COL.

In these situations, it might make sense to volunteer the first number in the
negotiation, and to go high with it. Don't mention your current salary. Just
talk about how the cost of living is a big adjustment (be precise about your
multiplier, citing a data source), relocation is a big adjustment, etc., so
accordingly, $X sounds reasonable. (Where X = the first number you mention;
you do not make reference to your starting point before arriving at X. The
hiring manager or HR person usually won't work backwards and reverse-engineer
your starting point, but rather, will treat X as the anchor. The mere fact of
_having_ a rationale leading up to X makes X seem credible).

The other thing I'd say is not to make X a wildly ballsy figure, or to pull it
out of thin air. You should have a very realistic reasoning for having arrived
at X; it shouldn't be complete bullshit. Giving a number that is wildly off
the top end of the pay scale for a position is a sign of naivete, which is
often a signal that you're not actually qualified for the position (or that
you're overqualified, in which case, why are you applying for this position?).
Your anchor X should be somewhere at the high end of what your research tells
you is a realistic range for the job in question.

------
cgopalan
There are many people that are not comfortable with negotiation. They see it
as a game, and want to avoid it. They would rather just produce something and
get paid for it for a living, and cut all the bullshit. For those people,
maybe the template below will help (just a suggestion).

1\. Find out what you really like to do (technology or domain-wise etc)

2\. Find out where you break even on your daily/monthly expenses.

3\. Add to that a savings cushion that you are comfortable with. Thats your
number.

4\. Find out companies that do 1, and drop that number right away so that they
know where you stand.

5\. If company rejects, keep looking.

6\. If the company okays it because they think its well below market rate, and
you come to know of it, work for them for a couple of years and then jump
ship.

You may have been low-balled for sometime, but you worked on something you
liked, and have some experience under your belt to search for other
opportunities in the same field.

------
positr0n
Great advice here, now I want to see something about negotiating a raise
within your own company. I could use this information to get huge raises by
changing jobs every couple years for the first decade of my career.

But what if I like my job? I want to stay here _and_ negotiate large, fair
raises. How?

~~~
run4yourlives
Be willing to leave.

Sounds trite, but it's true. If your employer knows you are never a threat to
leave, they will never try to convince you to stay with monetary incentives.

Once you are willing to leave, shop around and "interview" with your employer
too. Figure out what the best overall deal is at that point.

~~~
wallflower
My friend wanted to move his family across the country. He approached his
managers with the proposal that they let him work remote. And, more
importantly, he explicitly let them know if they did not accept his proposal
that he would resign. He got the remote approval and he says that there was no
bluff. He was all-in. If they said "sorry, we cannot do that. Cya", he would
have had to resign. Because his creditability would be shot if he said "oh,
thanks for considering". He feels he got it because he really was forcing
their hand.

------
therandomguy
Always be the first one to give a number. That sets the bar. Let's say your
current salary is $100K. You want $130K. You say call the number first, $160K.
Now the company is negotiating against that number. If you accept $140K they
will perceive it as a win for them.

~~~
rmc
The problem is most engineers significantly under value their worth and so
usually offer a low-to-the-company number. There are people working in offices
(not as programmers) that don't know zip files. You, as a programmer, can do
magic with the magic boxes.

In the long run, it would be better if programmers were better are valuing
themselves. In the short run if programmers stopped giving numbers, it'd be
better.

------
vimalg2
Thanks Patrick. This was a long time coming.

I can tell you've had quite a personal journey about this topic.

------
fragsworth
For those of you who suck at negotiations and how to go about them, I believe
the single best thing you can do is to get more than one employment discussion
going at the same time. Then you can be totally honest and open in your
negotiations and still maximize the offer made by each company. It is quite
difficult to mess it up at that point - you might not get the highest salary
possible between the companies, but you will get close to the highest possible
salary that at least one of the companies is willing to offer.

------
larrys
First let me say that this appears to have plenty of good information and I
will definitely read the entire piece.

But I've been stopped right away by this paragraph near the beginning:

"I think that middle class Americans are socialized from a very young age to
view negotiation as something that is vaguely disreputable and engaged in only
by poor people. Think of the associations you have with the word “haggling”:
do you think of a successful young professional talking about thousands of
dollars in a brightly lit office? No, you probably think of an old woman
arguing over a trivial sum of money in a dirty flea market."

Nothing could be further from the truth for people that are, as only a few
examples, jewish, indian, asian and I would imagine other immigrant groups.

As a member of one of the above mentioned, it's exactly the opposite. I was
raised to think if you don't negotiate you're stupid. And not only that, but
if you give someone a price and they don't negotiate so is the other party.

Of course this all depends on the product or service in question obviously as
well as the dollar amount.

By the way, negotiation doesn't mean someone giving you a price and you saying
"will you take $x". That's something that any good negotiator will recognize
as essentially saying you will pay the asking price or maybe you want them to
throw you a bone.

------
geekfactor
A friend of mine turned me on to the audio version of this book, "Negotiating
Your Salary: How to Make $1000 a Minute" [1], many years ago.

It's more about a mind shift than rocket-science techniques, but I can attest
to increasing my income by tens of thousands of dollars by putting its ideas
into practice.

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/Negotiating-Your-Salary-Minute-
Revised...](http://www.amazon.com/Negotiating-Your-Salary-Minute-
Revised/dp/1580083102/ref=dp_ob_title_bk)

------
mhartl
I'd like to suggest a "comfort challenge" for patio11: apply the principles in
this article to increase your stated income ($70,000 [1]) by a factor of three
without compromising your quality of life. I bet it can be done.

[1] [http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/12/21/bingo-card-creator-
etc-y...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/12/21/bingo-card-creator-etc-year-in-
review-2011/)

------
sethg
One question I’ve been asked, interviewing at startups, is: “how do you feel
about cash vs. equity?” For my personal financial needs, this is a no-brainer:
cash is king, baby. But other HN readers might be in a position where their
market-rate salary is $100K cash but they _could_ see themselves getting by at
$75K or even $50K... how should they answer that question?

------
mikeklaas
The advice to "never be first to state a number" should really be "never
divulge your current/previous salary".

~~~
throwaway1979
This isn't as easy to dodge though, right? Or do people do this routinely?

~~~
patio11
It is not too difficult to dodge questions about current/past salary. We're
clear on why you want to do that, right? If you say "My salary at my current
job is $65,000", you will receive a job offer at $70,000 +/- $2,000 regardless
of whether the company would happily pay $90k for you if they had not known
your current salary.

Anyhow, given that, there are numerous options to decline to damage your own
negotiating position. My personal favorite is "As a matter of professional
courtesy, I decline to comment on the specific policies of past employers.
Don't worry, I will treat your confidences with the same level of
professionalism when someone asks me about them in a few years."

It is unfalsifiable (as opposed to what people sometimes suggest on HN: "That
is under NDA", which is a claim that can actually be a lie), conveys status,
and (gently) informs the person you're speaking with that you're aware how the
game is played.

~~~
throwaway1979
Dude ... I've said it before (under my real HN account) and will say it again
... you-are-the-man!

I can't believe how stupid I've been all these years :( I'll admit that when
recruiters have asked me this question, I've behaved almost like a deer in
headlights.

My current job, I accepted the offer as is. THEN asked them if they had any
salary negotiation room. Of course, I was told no. I felt like hitting my head
against a wall right after that phone call. I won't be that big of an idiot
again!

------
jaryd
<http://salarytutor.com/> this is a pretty good and fast read on the subject
with some actionable advice that will help prepare you for the conversation.

------
rb2k_
Speaking of salary negotiations, there is something I always wondered about
the US:

What is the difference in "pure" salary vs additional costs to the empolyer?

Things like 401k contributions and benefits (e.g. dental or health) certainly
come with a pricetag. Seeing as I'm doing remote work from another country,
I'm not sure how much that actually saves the company. The same goes for
simple things as not needing office space / electricity / ... which I provide
for myself over here (as I'm working from home).

Does anybody have any insight on that?

------
throwaway1979
So here's an issue I've faced. Instead of being asked ... what's my number?
I've gotten asked .. "what's your salary?" How do you deal with this one?

~~~
bhousel
Make something up. It's not like they're going to call your boss and say "Hey
we're trying to steal this employee away from you, how much money are you
paying him?"

Some exceptions to this: 1. You work a government job where your salary is
public knowledge 2. You are unemployed and they _can_ just call your previous
employer. 3. You listed your current boss as a reference and they're probably
getting a call anyway. 4. You expect that they're going to perform an
extensive background check that might uncover your salary anyway.

------
bedris
Two good posts on the subject:

[http://hollaforthatdolla.com/2011/discussing-desired-
salary-...](http://hollaforthatdolla.com/2011/discussing-desired-salary-
during-the-interview-process/)

[http://hollaforthatdolla.com/2011/be-prepared-to-discuss-
sal...](http://hollaforthatdolla.com/2011/be-prepared-to-discuss-salary-
openly-when-seeking-a-new-opportunity/)

------
gleb
Real estate purchases in US are usually highly leveraged, say 5x for a typical
purchase with 20% down.

So, negotiating those will have proportionally larger impact than immediate
cashflow changes suggest.

The article incorrectly suggests otherwise which detracts from its authority.

------
mitchie_luna
I think the people who has the right to negotiate is the one who has the skill
to do the job being offered. Because you know your capability, definitely, you
should know what is your value in the market.

Anyway, article is interesting.

------
rapind
Jut like everything in life, confidence is key. You gain confidence through
experience. Try, fail, try again. Little tricks like not being the first to
say a number is about as useful as pickup lines are for dating.

------
Anm
Random note on the site theme: This detail looks horrible, adding unnecessary
high frequency contrast when selected: body { text-shadow: white 0px 1px 0px;
}

------
spicyj
Can anyone say how applicable these suggestions are to getting internships
while still in college?

~~~
prophetjohn
I'm currently working at my first internship where I negotiated a ridiculous
lowball into a substantial lowball. I didn't have any other offers on the
table and was worried that I wouldn't get anything, so I settled. I think my
point is that it won't hurt to ask.

I later found out that I wouldn't be an employee, but a 1099 contractor
responsible for all my taxes, making the rate even lower than I initially
thought. Needless to say, they will have to more than double my hourly rate
when summer comes for me to stay.

------
forax
Any advice for negotiating over email if you don't receive an offer until
after the interview?

------
chrisbennet
"What's it going to take to get you into a top of the line Engineer today?"

------
kurtvarner
Anyone want to give a TL;DR explanation?

------
nnythm
how do you negotiate equity?

------
dsolomon
Author drew numbers from thin air resulting in horrible advice.

Throw in - "For a funded startup which has enough engineers to warrant a
foosball table, the company payroll is well north of $100,000 a month." - yet
still require that employees provide their own hardware/software to do the
job.

------
publicus
Key: never tell them your salary. Then, be the first to give the number at 2X
your current salary. Then come down a little eg, 5-10% lower then 2X.

Get a bunch of offers, let them bid it even higher.

