
BMW unveils car sprayed with Vantablack - telotortium
https://www.dezeen.com/2019/08/27/bmw-vbx6-vantablack-car-design/
======
jdietrich
Note to the comments: this is a one-off show piece, not something that anyone
intends to use on the road. The VBx 2 coating is not fully waterproof, has
extremely poor abrasion resistance and rapidly loses its light-absorbing
properties if exposed to contamination.

[https://www.surreynanosystems.com/super-black-
coatings/vbx-c...](https://www.surreynanosystems.com/super-black-coatings/vbx-
coatings/vantablack-vbx-2)

~~~
conception
And I think cancerous if inhaled.

~~~
adrr
Everything is cancerous if inhaled. Even inert substances like talcum powder,
dust from cutting stone or wood etc.

~~~
nightfly
Talc is probably one of the more dangerous substances to inhale. Not only is
it often contaminated with Asbestos, it might have some asbestos like
properties of its own.

~~~
lostlogin
It’s not just inhaling - perineal exposure seems to be bad too and had been
associated with increased endometrial cancer risk in some groups. Perineal BMW
exposure seems less likely.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866017/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866017/)

------
grawprog
I think the most interesting thing I learned out of that was from the link
posted at the end about the feud between Kapoor and Semple about Kapoor's
exclusive rights to vanta black in artwork and semple's creation of a
competing almost absolute black colour usable by anyone but Kapoor.

>British artist Anish Kapoor acquired exclusive rights for the Vantablack
pigment in 2016, making him the only person in the world who can paint using
this colour.

>It led to a long-running feud with Stuart Semple who created his own version
of blackest-black, available to anyone but Kapoor.

[https://www.dezeen.com/2019/02/05/black-3-0-stuart-semple-
an...](https://www.dezeen.com/2019/02/05/black-3-0-stuart-semple-anish-kapoor-
vantablack/)

That was an odd read. I didn't know exclusively licensing a colour was even
possible.

~~~
jsjohnst
> I didn't know exclusively licensing a colour was even possible.

Yahoo! did the same with a specific Pantone shade of purple.

~~~
fortran77
This is a color _trademark_.

~~~
jsjohnst
Nope, they specifically got an exclusive license from Pantone for the color in
question.

------
ruffrey
It's a cool stunt. I would love to see more objects painted with Vantablack,
purely for fun.

Driving a car painted in Vantablack at night sounds pretty dangerous.

> When light strikes the surface, it is almost completely absorbed rather than
> reflected

Sounds hot like it would end up getting quite hot.

~~~
agumonkey
unless you plan to use your car a solar concentrator

~~~
josefx
London already has a tower for that: [https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-
london-23930675](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-23930675)

------
Agentlien
The timing of this marketing stunt was funny to me. I work on the development
of Need for Speed Heat and a few days ago we had a discussion about which
types of materials we can technically support in our player facing visual
customization. We discussed materials that exist but we currently can't
represent as well as materials we could make but which don't look real. I
joked about adding Vantablack to the game, seeing as it would probably be
entirely impractical in reality and look very surreal in the game.

Later that day, this was first published. What struck me was that the end
result didn't look as bizarre as I had expected.

~~~
wiseleo
Now that there's an implementation in the wild, add it. :)

------
Hamuko
Note: it's coated in VBx2 which absorbs 99% of light, not in Vantablack that
absorbs 99.96%. Apparently it's also not nanotubes (which is the "nt" in
"Vanta").

~~~
TheArcane
Probably something to do with this [https://www.dezeen.com/2016/03/02/anish-
kapoor-exclusive-rig...](https://www.dezeen.com/2016/03/02/anish-kapoor-
exclusive-rights-vantablack-blackest-black-pigment/)

~~~
disillusioned
Naw, it's that the traditional VB has to be "grown" and can't be spray
applied, which is what this version is for. Growing the nanotubes makes them
perfectly perpendicular. Spraying them... does not, but still achieves much of
the same effect.

------
tempestn
Good for avoiding LIDAR speeding tickets. Bad for avoiding self-driving cars.

~~~
cat199
> Good for avoiding LIDAR speeding tickets.

no subject knowledge, but

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIDAR_traffic_enforcement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIDAR_traffic_enforcement)

lists US detectors as operating outside of the visible spectrum - does this
actually block those frequencies?

~~~
adrr
Lidar on self driving cars have a hard time seeing black cars. Vanta Black is
probably even harder to see.

Cops tend to shoot at the front license plate or the head lights so i doubt it
would actually help.

~~~
thelittleone
>Cops tend to shoot at the front license plate or the head lights

That sounds pretty ambitious. It's difficult enough to hold a laser pointer on
a stationary license plate size target 20m away.

~~~
tempestn
The beam spreads a bit and they don't need it all to be reflected back, nor
for very long.

------
dx87
That seems really irresponsible, the car would be very hard to see if you
approach it from the rear at night, especially if the driver installs covers
over the brake lights to make them darker. A few years ago where I live in the
USA there was a news story being run about a controversial decision to not
charge a driver who hit and killed somebody at night because the person they
hit was black, wearing all black clothes, and walking in the street. I don't
imagine a car painted with a material known to make the car close to invisible
against a dark back drop would do any better in court if it was rear-ended.

~~~
Marsymars
Cars driven at night should have lights. It's very dangerous to drive a car of
any colour at night without lights.

~~~
cstross
"Should" is a word that ought to be banned from this sort of discussion.

It's illegal in this country—the UK—to drive at night without lights. Doesn't
stop it happening, though. Either someone forgets to turn the lights on, if
they're manually controlled, or they actively turn them _off_ because the UI
is ambiguous (this happened to me, once), or the filament bulb burns out
(again: filament bulbs are/were mandatory in the UK, originally to rule out
carbide lamps without actually banning them), or there's a wiring/software
fault.

The point is, vehicle safety measures should be fail-safe, and driving an
invisible vehicle at night and relying on lights to make yourself seen is kind
of the opposite of that.

~~~
Marsymars
Following that, it's hard to argue that cars shouldn't come with mandatory
reflective strips. (Which, of the top of my head, actually doesn't seem like a
bad idea.)

~~~
whenchamenia
Most do. Every car and motorcycle I own has reflectors on all sides.

~~~
Marsymars
Do they? Every so often I come up on a vehicle at night with no lights on, and
I've never noticed any notable reflectors, like say, runners wear at night for
visibility.

------
the8472
This will make the marketing CGI much cheaper to render. Zero reflection means
no bounces needed for the bulk of the car.

~~~
wongarsu
Regular car paint is also notoriously hard to render correctly because of the
light bouncing inside the coating, and the paint having varying thickness in
different parts of the car. Rendering Vantablack on the other hand is trivial.

------
kchoudhu
I see Mr. Desiato is back from his year dead for tax reasons.

------
minitoar
When can I get it in the pinkest pink?
[https://www.culturehustleusa.com/products/pink-50g-powdered-...](https://www.culturehustleusa.com/products/pink-50g-powdered-
paint-by-stuart-semple)

~~~
thermonot
> _By adding this product to your cart you confirm that you are not Anish
> Kapoor, you are in no way affiliated to Anish Kapoor, you are not purchasing
> this item on behalf of Anish Kapoor or an associate of Anish Kapoor. To the
> best of your knowledge, information and belief this paint will not make its
> way into that hands of Anish Kapoor._

[https://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2016/12/anish-kapoor-
stuar...](https://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2016/12/anish-kapoor-stuart-
semple-pinkest-pink-blackest-black-colour_dezeen_sq.jpg)

~~~
Noumenon72
Maybe this condition is included in every EULA and this is just the first time
we've noticed it.

~~~
asdff
Shadowbanned from life.

------
yarg
I keep wondering, does vantablack have a maximum rate/cm^2 at which it
releases heat; does light exposure beyond some intensity cause it to burst
into flames?

~~~
vinaypai
All matter has a rate at which it emits radiation that depends on its
temperature ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-
body_radiation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation)). Ordinary
black pigment which might absorb 95% of light will only heat up slightly
faster than vantablack which absorbs 99.9%.

~~~
vinaypai
Sorry, typo. I meant to say vantablack will heat up slightly faster, not the
other way around.

~~~
yarg
So at some constant rate proportional to the delta between the material and
the environment?

Essentially I'm wondering at what point that isn't fast enough to avoid
combustion.

Since it consists of densely packed nanotubes, I'm guessing that oxygen will
be in short supply deep down where the light is converted, so it might need to
be close to the point where the heat is high enough to disintegrate a
nanotube.

I'd imagine that's be a rather high temperature.

------
MegaButts
This is a cool color. I bet just about everybody working on self-driving cars
though is terrified of this, as it's almost invisible to lidar. It will also
be very difficult to see with cameras at night (not to mention the human eye).

~~~
AmericanChopper
It can’t be driven on the road. The paint isn’t durable enough. This is just a
cool stunt.

~~~
Wistar
Non-durable paint prevents a car from being driven?

~~~
AmericanChopper
Well it can be but from what I understand the finish would wear off almost
immediately and the cool black effect would vanish.

~~~
Wistar
I agree. It'd probably be akin to gluing talcum powder on the car.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Look what happened to all the matte black factory paint jobs that were popular
a few years ago.

~~~
Wistar
Mercedes Magno Alanite matte finishes and BMW Frozen matte finishes look great
even though they are several years old. They are incredibly tough.

------
rwz
Cars are a really weird choice of consumer products to paint in vantablack.
All the aesthetics of rigid car body shapes are obscured and you can't really
appreciate it. Not to mention how impractical such a car would be.

I totally understand that this is an artistic concept and nobody is planning
to mass-produce or sell those, but still.

What I really wanna see in vantablack is clothing. I think it'd look really
interesting and eye-catching.

~~~
tsss
It's a BMW X6 so I don't think aesthetics or practicality will be of any
concern.

~~~
rwz
I don't share the resentment towards BMW X6. I actually think it's the best
looking BMW SUV. To each their own I guess.

~~~
jordanbeiber
I remember, being 6.4”, having to have my head tilted in the back seat as the
roof slopes severely to the trunk. Just thought it was so silly, and felt that
this, this has to be one of the most pointless vehicles made in the most
recent times. It’s just a SUV for the people in front. Such a weird life-style
mobile, but as you say - to each their own.

------
cheschire
"It's the wild colour scheme that freaks me out," said Zaphod, whose love
affair with the ship had lasted almost three minutes into the flight. "Every
time you try and operate these weird black controls that are labeled in black
on a black background, a little black light lights up in black to let you know
you've done it."

~~~
shobith
"It's so ... black!" said Ford Prefect, "you can hardly make out its shape ...
light just seems to fall into it!"

~~~
Shivetya
or just play along with Red Dwarf
[https://youtu.be/SqI41N4WGPM](https://youtu.be/SqI41N4WGPM)

that out of the way, even the pictures of this BMW don't look real. It would
be something I would want to see in full sun as well as in the shade. i can
see all sorts of non automotive uses for it. probably would be played out too
much

------
enemywalker
Looks like a repost of:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20820000](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20820000)

------
userbinator
The images are interesting --- I assume they are photographs, but the
blackness makes them look like CGI.

------
rektide
"Those pedestrians ain't gonna kill themselves"
[https://mobile.twitter.com/mattmanning/status/11670737616837...](https://mobile.twitter.com/mattmanning/status/1167073761683787776)

------
madengr
I’m seeing more and more vehicles with this flat, black paint. They look like
crap, as if someone took a spray can of primer over the entire vehicle.

------
elkos
For people that like to use a very black paint and aren't Anish Kapoor Stuart
Semple's Black seems like an option to paint stuff.
[https://culturehustle.com/products/black-v1-0-beta-the-
world...](https://culturehustle.com/products/black-v1-0-beta-the-world-s-
mattest-flattest-blackest-art-material)

------
notacoward
Kind of looks cool, but the effect will be lost almost as soon as it hits the
road. High-tech paint is no match for plain old dirt.

------
gavia1
[deleted]

~~~
cstejerean
I really dislike this type of comment. I’m sure the people buying the X6 like
it. You aren’t the only one buying BMWs, and it’s ok that not every model
appeals to your needs. Buy whatever you like, but don’t assume that there’s
anything shameful about a company making products that you wouldn’t buy.

~~~
wallace_f
The Golden Rule and the NAP stand for instructive, good principles, here.
Treat others the way you want to be treated, and don't do things which harm
others.

It could be argued the BMW X6 is gluttonous. It gets horrible fuel economy,
and it's characteristics of size + performance lend credibility to the idea of
it being a burden on the road for others.

Finally, I disagree with your general sentiment against criticism. Criticism
makes us better.

~~~
perl4ever
If there's one thing people hate more than BMWs and SUVs in general, it's the
X6. But people _also_ hate hybrids (granted, usually not the same people). So
guess what? BMW made a (somewhat obscure) _hybrid X6 with 480 HP and 18 mpg_.
I've been tempted to find one just because it's the confluence of so many
types of petty hatred.

One thing to think about is that the effect of a vehicle on the environment
depends not just on the mpg, but on how far you drive it, and how many people
you transport on average.

------
dorkwood
“We realised that it wouldn't have worked if we'd put on the original
Vantablack material, as the viewer would have lost all sense of three-
dimensionality”

Isn’t that the point?

It’s a bit like saying an Escher drawing “doesn’t work” because the viewer
can’t tell where the stairs start or end.

------
beambot
Not great for lidar on autonomous cars. Wonder what it's radar properties are
like too.

------
yogrish
How safe is it esp. in low light/nights? Unless other vehicles have
Radar/LiDAR sensors, it’s not so easy to detect.camera sensors might face
challenges to detect this car. Other vehicles might hit this vanta black
parked car.

------
PunchTornado
I'm pretty sure soon enough some people will buy things to just mess with self
driving cars. Some just hate them, some do it for fun, some don't want the
technology to be on the streets.

------
vagab0nd
Reminds me of Tumbler's stealth mode.

[https://youtu.be/gYHKHDuXYWw?t=30](https://youtu.be/gYHKHDuXYWw?t=30)

------
thexa4
I wonder how they will manage the heat when parked in the sun. Being an ideal
absorber does not seem like a good quality for a car to have.

~~~
tempestn
I doubt it'd be too much worse than a regular black car parked in the sun.

~~~
jtbayly
I'm pretty sure regular black paint has aluminum to reflect a lot of energy
back out.

~~~
m0zg
Actually, no. Our perception of light is logarithmic, so what we perceive as
"middle gray" only reflects 18% of the light, with darker shades reflecting
exponentially less. Our perception of sound is also logarithmic BTW, so a 100W
speaker is nowhere near 10x as loud as a 10W one, nor 100x as loud as 1W.

~~~
mauvehaus
All else being equal, and ignoring the question of perceived loudness,
(massive hand-waving ahead), shouldn't a power of 10 increase in speaker
wattage result in, at best, a sqrt(10) increase in loudness since that power
is used to drive something with area to actually move the air?

~~~
Someone
No. Ten times the power gives you ten times the power/m^2 at the same
distance.

The distance at which you can hear the sound (in first order approximation)
_does_ scale by a factor of √N if you increase power by a factor N, but that’s
not normally how one defines loudness.

------
dmix
Self driving car's LIDAR will _love_ this

~~~
choppaface
Will not have any lidar returns, though if it’s not in front of a vantablack
backdrop then it will cast a pretty sharp silhouette. What would a deep net
do?

~~~
dmix
Use backup sensors?

------
Havoc
Really wish they had blacked the chrome grill too.

But practically it's a non-starter. You want your car to be visible in dusk
conditions

------
fortran77
I wonder if there's any potential for liability because it may be harder to
see the car under some conditions.

------
anovikov
Must be a hell to drive in the Cyprus sun!

------
tshanmu
vantablack has an interesting history - especially the feud between Anish
Kapoor and Sturat semple.

------
m0zg
It'll be this black for like 15 minutes until it gets a little dirt on it.
Then it will be permanently dirty looking. The easiest car color to keep clean
is white. At least you don't see every tiny speck of dust on it until it gets
really dirty. Source: had black and blue cars. Never again.

~~~
Hamuko
>The easiest car color to keep clean is white.

Have you ever owned a white shirt in your life?

Also, every white car here looks like this during the winter:
[https://www.germanboost.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6058...](https://www.germanboost.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6058&d=1301175385)

~~~
m0zg
Cars of any other color look even worse.

------
esotericn
How wear resistant is it? Presumably any coating would add reflectivity?

~~~
Hamuko
Pretty much fuck all.

------
Marsymars
Very cool, but it would be coated in road salt for half the year here.

------
sfjailbird
Life once again imitates Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

------
csours
Mary Kay should make a "pinkest pink" Cadillac.

------
kitten_smuggler
Would this be applicable for better stealth tech?

~~~
mysterydip
stealth is mostly about radar reflection rather than visible spectrum. Stealth
tech already uses various RAM (radar-absorbent materials) that operate on
similar principles and have varying degrees of durability. But if you want to
mess with people's perception this is great (maybe an urban combat or navy
seal type work?)

~~~
madengr
Probably better off painting it with zebra stripes like they did in WWI to
throw off torpedo targeting.

------
donatj
How hot does that thing get out in the sun?

------
minitoar
"Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is
Vantablack." \--Henry Ford or something

------
ElCapitanMarkla
Looks pretty slick but I wonder about the visibility from other drivers points
of view in certain conditions.

------
dwighttk
almost, but not quite, entirely black

hotblack desiato would be proud

------
Tharkun
Car crashes are a major cause of death. Actively making cars _harder to see_
should be a crime instead of a stupid marketing gimmick.

~~~
perl4ever
The hardest color to see is probably silver, second-hardest grey. These seem
to be a lot more popular than super-black.

------
antisthenes
What exactly is newsworthy here?

Some guys painted a car with a low-reflective black paint?

It's not like it's going into production or has any innovation behind it.

