
Standing desks 'increase pain' and slow down mental ability, study suggests - Stratoscope
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/02/23/standing-desks-increase-pain-slow-mental-ability-new-study/
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VarFarYonder
> Researchers at Curtin University in Australia observed 20 participants
> working at standing desks for two hours.

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perlgeek
small sample size, no control, laughable time span -- why are we talking about
this study?

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tzs
None of those are inherently fatal, either alone or in combination. To
illustrate, imagine I did a study where I took 20 people, subjected them to a
10 minute ice bath, followed by a chest X-ray, and then put them naked in a
steel cage and lowered the cage to the bottom of a swimming pool for 20
minutes (yes, the pool is full of water). Study participants are not told
beforehand that they will be going into water.

And suppose further that 9 of them are still alive when I pull them out of the
water. Not only are they alive, they are conscious, alert, and show no ill
effects from 20 minutes underwater.

That would be a study worth talking about despite the sample size and lack of
control and short time span.

Those would not be a fatal problems because we already know a lot about what
happens to humans in general who spend 20 minutes without diving equipment
underwater. We have a good idea of what the probability is for a human to
survive such a thing, and can estimate the probability that my sample included
9 such people. It would be close to zero. Heck, even if I had the misfortune
of accidentally getting my sample at a free diving competition the chances
that I'd get 9 people who could hold their breaths for 20 minutes would be
very low.

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behindmyscreen
From a knowledge building perspective, this study is not helpful. All this
does is show that maybe there is something to look at in a more well funded
study.

~~~
tzs
> All this does is show that maybe there is something to look at in a more
> well funded study.

That's what lies at the start of almost all knowledge in science.

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bambax
One of the benefits of working from home is you can adopt any position you
want. My favorite one is being reclined in a chair with my feet on the desk
and keyboard in my lap; it doesn't help with the lack of exercise but it
completely solves back pain.

But in most offices it seems to send a strong "slacking" signal; people go out
of their way to come to you and laugh or ask if you would maybe need a
cocktail as well.

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sureaboutthis
During a rough problem code session, I leaned back in my chair, hands behind
my head, deep in thought about the problem, when the VP of engineering walked
by. A few hours later, my boss called me into his office to let me know he
complained about the money being spent on engineering and "...some engineer
just sitting back, taking it easy in his office!".

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emh68
Dear VP of engineering, as a programmer, I sometimes need to stare off into
space to visualize a complex system. <my boss> should have explained this, but
didn’t, which I think is a failure to do their job.

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andy_ppp
Sounds like a good way to get fired! Although I think everywhere has people in
management that don’t understand how programmers minds work. It’s too
difficult to try to educate them without them feeling like they are being
patronised. Maybe time to move on anyway.

~~~
naasking
> Although I think everywhere has people in management that don’t understand
> how _problem solving_ works

Fixed that for you. This isn't exclusive to programming.

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verylittlemeat
The secret to a standing desk is to put a treadmill underneath it.

I have a fully jarvis and I almost never just stand at it. I do walk 5 miles a
day at 2 mph though and I can say without hyperbole it has changed my life.

Note: The immediate reaction I always get from people is "oh my god, how can
you work or type or mouse while walking." 2 mph is not fast at all. Sometimes
I even walk slower than that. Sometimes I'll walk at 1 mph and just shift my
weight around to massage out kinks in my legs. People develop this mentality
around treadmills where you're supposed to be constantly trying to walk
faster, as if that's the metric for your skill at using a desk treadmill. The
activity is quite literally not a race.

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bostik
I can only provide a personal observation. I've been a happy user of a sit-
stand desk for more than three years, and one part of the results does sound
plausible.

I tend to spend >70% of my time with the desk at standing height - dealing
with emails, taking part in office chat (slack), and reviewing changes of all
kinds. I have no problem doing some coding when standing up too. But when I
need to do deeper code review, thoughtful research, or otherwise dive into a
complex piece of code I find myself sitting down.

I _like_ the standing mode. My back feels better for it, and indeed, if I
spend too much time sitting down my back starts to complain. The ability to
adjust the height freely feels like I have the best of both worlds.

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nickjj
I've been using a standing desk full time for about 2 years now. I spend a
majority of my day standing.

In between standing I also walk and jog every few hours (roughly 5 miles a
day, mostly fast walking). I also do about 50 push ups and situps as general
exercise.

My job consists of writing code, constantly learning new things, creating
video courses (around software development topics) and blogging. So I would
say the cognitive requirements are pretty high but I don't feel standing
hinders my progress in thinking through problems. I never once felt like I had
to sit down to solve a problem.

Other than the first week of standing I have not experienced any muscle pains
or aches. I feel good.

If anyone is curious, here's a couple of posts I've written about standing
desks:

[https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/build-a-home-made-standing-
de...](https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/build-a-home-made-standing-desk-
for-50-dollars-in-10-easy-steps)

[https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/results-after-using-a-
standin...](https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/results-after-using-a-standing-
desk-for-3-months)

I recommend trying it out. Your own body will give you feedback on whether or
not it's working out for you.

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vackosar
Probable study link:
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000368701...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003687017302053)

HIGHLIGHTS

\- Standing for a duration of 2 h led to a significant increase in low back
discomfort among 20 participants.

\- Use of a footstool during prolonged standing did not reduce low back
discomfort.

\- Upper lumbar lordosis moved towards usual standing lordosis when using a
footstool.

\- Lumbar postural movement during prolonged standing was not affected by a
footstool.

\- Lumbar erector spinae median frequency and amplitude were not affected by a
footstool.

ABSTRACT

Prolonged standing is common in many occupations and has been associated with
low back discomfort (LBD). No recent studies have investigated a footrest as
an intervention to reduce LBD associated with prolonged standing. This study
investigated the effect of a footrest on LBD and sought to determine if LBD
changes were accompanied by changes in muscle fatigue and low back end-range
posture and movement. Twenty participants stood for two 2-h trials, one with
and one without a footrest. LBD, lumbar erector spinae electromyography, upper
lumbar (UL) and lower lumbar (LL) angles were measured. A significant increase
in LBD occurred in both conditions but the footrest did not significantly
decrease LBD. The only significant finding between conditions was that UL
lordosis became more similar to usual standing over time with footrest use.
These findings suggest that footrest use may not reduce LBD development and
that development of LBD with prolonged standing is unlikely to be due to
muscle fatigue or end-range posture mechanisms.

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myspy
Using a standing desk for a couple of months now. Most of the time I'm
sitting, but somedays I prefer to stand for an hour to max 90 minutes.

After that the reverse effect sets in and I get the urge to sit again. In this
regard I don't get the study. Using a standing desk to be more dynamic and
switching the position is good, but standing long and sitting long are both
problems in my book.

Mixing it up brings the benefit, which should be observed more closely here.

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fsavard
I have a very similar experience with sit-stand setups. I have one at home and
had one at work.

I stand up for routine tasks (email etc.) and sit down for deeper work. I find
standing unconsciously restricts breathing (core muscles contract) so makes me
exhausted more rapidly. I rarely work standing for more than an hour.

Reading comments here it seems a very common experience.

I think no matter how many studies on the subject there will be, personal
experience dictates how we'll do it. Like you I'm just glad the option now is
now socially acceptable to be a bit more mobile when doing desk work.

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Z1515M8147
I struggle to get creative when constrained to the chair and have noticed I go
a lot more frequently to the whiteboard to brainstorm a problem now that I'm
already standing at my desk. That doesn't mean I get better results, only that
I find the office space offers more to me in general when I adopt that active
stance. This is going to sound lazy, but I'm in an open office and i also find
I am less resentful about having to walk out of the room to get some thinking
space when I'm not having to sit down and get up again all the time.

One thing to note vis a vis long term health is that standing with good
posture requires using your glutes, hamstrings and abdominal muscles. If you
fully commit to a standing position and don't do some basic strength exercises
in these areas you may end up tilting your pelvis forwards a lot, which makes
the whole body tighten up. Ironically its people with back problems who are
the most keen to adopt standing desks, but if you have a history of back
problems or a diagnosed condition often the last thing you want is your whole
body tightening up as this could encourage injuries. This is one reason why
the general advice is not to underestimate the effort or concentration
required to transition to a standing lifestyle, and to take it slowly and
mindfully.

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codingdave
While it doesn't sound like a huge study, I do tend to agree with those
conclusions, having worked with adjustable desks for a few years now, due to
orthopedic problems which make it uncomfortable to sit all day...

I much prefer to be sitting when in "flow" for coding, but I stand when doing
more bureaucratic tasks. And many times, it is nice to just be able to switch
positions every few minutes, more so than trying to be on my feet all day.

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fian
Hmmm, I definitely prefer to stand when in a creative flow state. Any activity
that requires a lot of reading I prefer to sit for.

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yters
My preferred coding position is lying propped up in bed.

~~~
BenjiWiebe
I'd like to try that, but I prefer developing on a desktop PC with a 24"
monitor, and that could be a bit clumsy to get into bed...

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alkonaut
I’d like to see an evaluation of _varying_ standing/sitting versus only
sitting. I try to stand/sit alternating every hour or so.

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Shivetya
While I am curious how this will pan out long term I do think you need to
adjust to one and some people will try standing too long too early and might
actually hurt themselves.

I have an uplift desk, one of the L shape models. I like it but I found one
benefit I did not realize when I bought it. I could have a proper sitting
height desk. Don't under estimate that! The majority of desk are one height
fits all and that does allow for proper arm angle which can lead to fatigue.

I recommend a motion board or even a small treadmill if you are so inclined.
If neither suits them a foot stool to alternate raising a foot higher than
another.

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cimmanom
For periods of standing longer than 2 hours. Also no data included in the
article about whether this varies with the fitness of individuals.

Anyway, I thought we already knew that staying in one position - any position
- for too long is detrimental? Isn't that why we have sit-stand desks?

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rehemiau
Were the study participants used to working with a standing desk? One can't
simply switch to a standing desk, you have to introduce it gradually, in order
not to hurt yourself.

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behindmyscreen
More than one study is needed before you can conclude that allowing people to
stand while working is not a good thing. We don't even have to population
details to determine if the study population was properly selected and that
all variables had been controlled for. The fact that the study was of only 20
people doesn't bolster the idea that the study was any good.

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switch007
I can relate somewhat. I just got a stool which acts as a kind of standing
support when high, and a nice active sitting stool when lowered. The first few
days I used it, I barely got anything done - I kept going in circles with
small problems. Then I switched back to my Aeron (which I'm not a huge fan)
and it was like the fog lifted.

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manicdee
This reminds me of those “books are better than iPads” studies where the iPad
users were forced to use maximum brightness in a fixed position while book
users were given complete freedom. Unsurprisingly the “iPad users” performed
worse on comprehension tests after the reading exercise.

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Havoc
People at work love them

