
'Why did eBay side with the buyer when he returned my Apple MacBook?' - hellofunk
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/jessica-investigates/did-ebay-side-buyer-returned-apple-macbook/
======
tp3z4u
Ex eBay employee here. Don't buy or sell on eBay. It's not that no-one there
cares, I certainly did, it is that no-one in power cares. The corporate
culture is toxic. I worked in bad buyer experience and building algorithms to
fix this is trivial. It happens a lot so there is a lot of data and the
patterns are simple. The problem is that every fix costs eBay a discernible
amount money.

We did customer analysis to show that existing customers were leaving faster
than new ones were coming in. Usually people have one bad experience and never
come back. They still didn't care and given their culture they will never care
until their stock plummets or a real competitor comes along.

~~~
themihai
But they already have a real competitor: Amazon

~~~
tp3z4u
Not yet and not really.

~~~
candiodari
Can you elaborate a bit on that ? It seems from afar that both Amazon and Ebay
are crashing into eachother.

Amazon, for it's side, is opening up to sellers. From secondhand sellers to
etsy type products getting listed on Amazon. It's focus is different: getting
many producers/middlemen to list the same products.

Ebay is working to get part of the logistics, payment, etc. in house. Ebay
used to be just a listing site. But then payment came into ebay (with a hefty
fee raise I might add), and now we see the focus on ebay to classify things
the way Amazon does. You're seeing that when you sell something on ebay. Ebay
will ask "is it like this ?" and then ask a few questions to determine the
exact product.

Seems like both companies are evolving toward the same middle ground.

~~~
tp3z4u
It's a big nuanced topic but I'll elaborate a bit more.

Amazon has bigger fish to fry than eBay. Amazon can always focus on second
hand market place later while leveraging their infrastructure to ensure a win.
My bet is that they will take a long time to get around to it. In the meantime
phone based and social based have a pretty good shot at competing. This will
also take a long time.

eBays efforts to take on Amazon at being Amazon is a total waste of what
little focus they have. Like Yahoo, one of the best perks of eBay is that it's
hard to get fired. It's very relaxed and people are quite comfortable - why
risk an easy / safe job by taking a risk doing something innovative. After a
while innovative people get jack of it and leave and all you're left is the
lazy and incompetent. There are pockets of excellence within eBay but they're
getting smaller. There was a potential for a turnaround when the stock price
was $10 but at $30+ no-one is interested.

------
tyingq
Sadly, this is just how things are when you're a 3rd party seller on platforms
like eBay, Amazon, etsy, etc.

They side with the buyers. Bad behavior, or fraud, on the part of buyers isn't
interesting to them when the seller is a 3rd party because they have no skin
in the game. They want that buyer more than they want you.

There's no escalation point either. Push back, and the fraudulent buyer will
just file a chargeback. The credit card companies are even worse about siding
with buyers engaging in return fraud.

For me, it's just the cost of doing business. I have to pad my margin to
account for it. Assholes like the buyer depicted in the article just make
prices higher for everyone else.

Edit: It might be interesting if some fairly ubiquitous payment processor
offered a shared buyer blacklist. I suppose though, nobody wants to expose
themselves to the potential lawsuits. If it were managed well, by only
allowing fairly established, higher volume sellers, to add to the list, it
might work well.

~~~
SimbaOnSteroids
Hmmm... sounds like an interesting startup idea, curate a list of bad buyers
and sell access to it based on a monthly subscription. The catch being that
whoever curates the list would have to do a thorough job either vetting
complaints or developing a statistical model that predicts if someone is a
jerk at a higher rate than the average consumer. There are issues with this
idea of course, it might be more expensive to run the service than sellers
lose in revenue, you're liable to tick off both sellers and buyers by
attempting to be an unbiased mediator. You could also land in hot water if a
minority group ends up having higher than average rates of getting black
listed.

~~~
tyingq
I think it would almost have to be someone like Stripe or Paypal, such that
they have a broad enough view into the buyer. They would get data via
chargebacks versus just seller initiated data.

Personally, I think credit card companies should send back something like
"percentage of purchases with a chargeback" and let us decide how risky we
want to be.

~~~
SimbaOnSteroids
You could also function as a broad returns resale company, front a portion of
the money for the return fix/dump products in house and resell them at a
discounted price. Then adjust the percentage you refund the seller based on
what type of item it is and how much of there stuff comes back unsalvagable.
Target resale at the developing world/people on shoestring budgets/startups.

------
habosa
Can someone please build a better eBay? Something with stronger reputation
signals, escrow based payment, and lower fees? I've had many bad experiences
on eBay but there's nowhere better to buy/sell certain things.

I sold an old phone on eBay for $100. I choose PayPal as the payment and​
everything seemingly went fine. A few weeks later I wondered where my money
was because I still didn't have it. The buyer had sent it but apparently I
forgot to 'accept' it. eBay said I had waited too long and no longer had a
right to get the money. So the buyer got my phone, eBay got the $100, and I
had to pay $8 in seller fees. Sold a phone for negative $8. How is that not
fraud?

~~~
candiodari
Here's how one common scam works : the buyer sent you a fake payment mail.
There was never a paypal transaction, nor was any money transfered. The money
you paid to ebay was a listing fee, not a final value fee (yes you have to pay
even if the item doesn't sell), but in reality the item was never sold.

This is like the old snail mail scam: insert extra bills for common things
(like electricity or tax or whatnot) with fake payment instructions (ie.
pointing to an account under your control). Suckers pay, then a month later
receive another bill from the power company and complain, but of course the
power company has no idea about any of that payment and will, of course, still
insist on payment.

Make sure to go to paypal's site to verify paypal payments (and frankly if you
can avoid it: don't use paypal). Check the sites YOU GO TO, not what ends up
in your inbox.

~~~
habosa
Interesting scam but that was not it. eBay confirmed that the buyer had paid,
I just was not eligible to get the money. What I paid was a final value fee.

------
mhotchen
I tried starting a business selling those 30 day WoW subscription cards as I
came on to a box of them for fairly cheap. I sold most of them, then one
person falsely reported me of fraud and that was it, my paypal account which
had all of my profits in it was frozen and I never managed to recover the
money. IIRC I had close to £300 and I never found out what happened to the
money; I imagine paypal just took it as profit despite every buyer giving me
positive feedback up until that point.

I was considering starting a marketplace on Amazon last year as well with a
friend, just selling basic Chinese made goods but it sounds like things like
this are rampant there too, and honestly I'm seeing a lot of sellers on Amazon
lately that are scammers, so I'm beginning to lose faith in Amazon as a
consumer as well.

If I'm going to try and make a business from selling goods online I would want
to run my own ecommerce shop using shopify or something similar.

~~~
gruez
Check again. They should give you instructions on getting the money back after
180 days.

~~~
mhotchen
This was ten years ago; I might try and dig it up to see if I can get it back,
but honestly by now I imagine all hope is lost.

------
maxaf
Dealing with finicky buyers - let alone fraudulent ones - is what drove me
away from selling stuff online. The system is set up to cater to the
oversensitive mindsets of entitled online shoppers, which is the same setup
that gives fraudulent buyers an unassailable leg up over sellers.

My marketplace of choice is Craigslist. I meet up with the buyer, they inspect
the item, and pay me in cash if all looks good. There is no room for monkey
business. I usually set up these meetings in front of the closest police
station in order to keep everyone safe. A few times buyers have come to the
lobby of my office building. I've never had an unhappy buyer after having sold
dozens of items over the last decade or so.

------
mnm1
Selling stuff on ebay / using paypal (they're the same thing from a seller's
perspective) is a gamble. You can sell a brand new product and then the buyer
creates a dispute with ebay/paypal and you're fucked. Often they don't even
have to return the item. Paypal will freeze the funds. Only if the buyer
agrees to cancel their complaint can you get your money back. It's too bad.
Ebay used to be a wonderful platform. But like most Internet companies today,
they are shit. Paypal's business is undoubtedly criminal. Craigslist works
only because it's not a platform and you don't have to give them money. Much
less exposure, but at least ebay/paypal/other shitty Internet company doesn't
keep your money. All these advances, and a copy of the classifieds
(craigslist) plus cash is still the optimal route for selling safely. Sad.

------
ddavis
I've sold one thing on eBay ever and I'll never do it again. My buyer tried to
do the same thing mentioned in this article to me; luckily I made the item non
returnable and I didn't let the buyer's threats of getting a lawyer scare me
into giving in, I knew it would have to go through eBay's dispute system
first. It's really a terrible system for sellers, it really sucks that eBay et
al. are all guilty.

------
ghaff
This is not a new kind of story on eBay but I'm not sure what the answer is.
The reputation system works to some degree if someone commits systematic fraud
but if someone does this as a one-off thing, I'm not sure what reasonable
protections are other than using some sort of escrow service.

You can argue whether eBay's policies should default to favoring the buyer or
the seller but they pretty much have to do one or the other. Even if their
customer service were better than it is, it's not in the position to do a
forensic investigation in cases where the facts are in dispute and can't be
easily determined.

~~~
mnm1
No, one or two minutes spent by a human would easily resolve this situation
and most disputes. Just taking a look at the images and serial numbers of the
macs would provide the evidence needed. Ebay does not have to be the shitty
company it is. It chooses to be the shitty company it is.

------
lisper
At least part of this is on the seller for not keeping track of the serial
number. Whenever you deal in used Apple products either as a buyer or a seller
you should always check the serial number, always make sure you keep the
original packaging, and always make sure the serial numbers on the unit and
the packaging match. This is by far your best protection against all manner of
shady dealings.

~~~
tyingq
You say that as if it would have compelled eBay to decide the matter
differently. It really doesn't work that way with eBay, Amazon, or similar.
They just don't care about return fraud, especially when it's a 3rd party
seller. The buyer can return a box of rocks and it works out the same way.

Edit: My classic example was one case where the buyer claimed "item not
received". It was a one-off, custom item, and quite expensive. So, I was
pissed off enough to hire a private investigator to go to the place of
business. The item was there. The PI took pictures of the item, with the
buyer's business (including signage) in the background. I submitted them in
the counter dispute. I also had one of his employee's signature on a UPS
delivery slip. Still lost. Their reasoning was that the signature was not the
buyer's signature (no matter that it was the buyer's employee's signature).
They didn't mention the incriminating pictures at all in the final outcome.

~~~
chrischen
If it was expensive enough to hire a PI, seems like you could litigate
civilly?

~~~
tyingq
It was a $500 purchase. Buyer was out of state, 1000+ miles away. The PI
charged $120 to take the pictures.

This was more of a principal thing. You can imagine these days I just shrug
and move on.

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
I think there is a fundamental assymetry in buyers and sellers for eBay. A
random buyer is much more likely to be a repeat user than a random seller. An
individual might sell a few items, but would buy many more items. In addition,
a bad experience as a seller where eBay took the buyer's side, is actually
more likely to make them have confidence in being a buyer. On the other hand,
a buyer that feels cheated is likely to never use the service again. As for
businesses that sell on eBay, they assume a certain rate of these kind of
things and price in the risk accordingly, so they don't really care as long as
it is not too frequent. Given the above, it absolutely makes sense for eBay to
be heavily biased in favor of the buyer in a dispute.

------
miller_joe
I am not surprised. I used to sell old iPhones and MacBooks on eBay but
stopped since every experience became bad in some way and the fees are already
high and getting higher.

The last straw for me was a MacBook sale. I took great care of it and listed
it in great condition and included pictures. The buyer considered it "good"
not great condition and after several back and forths arguing I sent him $50
to buy a cover. I searched around for information and experiences from others
during the process and eventually realized that he had all the control and
eBay essentially always sides with buyers. I'm glad I only got taken for $50
instead of the outcome from the story. Never again though. F eBay

------
wideem
I recently bought MacBook on eBay and it arrived with bended lid that was not
mentioned in the description. Messaged the seller hoping that he could at
least offer $50 compensation for that. Will see how it goes.

------
mratzloff
I buy and sell on eBay, but I only sell things on it that I'm OK with losing
without compensation, which generally means small items of moderate value that
I am trying to get rid of to declutter. Low-value items get donated or
trashed. Free or high-value items are given away or sold for cash through
Craigslist or other in-person means. This has worked out pretty well for me so
far.

------
tmaly
I am scared to sell anymore on Ebay given these stories. How can you protect
yourself if you are selling a high priced item?

~~~
rickyc091
You really can't. When dealing with high priced items, always ship with
insurance and signature confirmation. It costs more but it's worth the
trouble. I'd had cases where the seller claimed the box to be empty. I've had
cases where they claimed it to be damaged. Whether they are lying or not I
don't know, but that's where the shipping insurance covers it.

The cases that the seller does want a return, you really can't say no. I
usually just say yes, I can process a return, but can you explain what is
wrong with the item? Maybe we can walk through it before processing a full
return. Usually you can get away with compensating them something since no one
wants to go through the hassle of the return.

I also make sure I tell them to ship with signature confirmation and tracking.
Since I offer "free shipping", that means they would have to eat all the costs
when they return the item. More often than not, it's not worth the hassle for
them.

After hundreds of sales, I would say there are definitely some complications,
but more often than not it's fine. It's one of the risks you have to consider
when selling.

~~~
curosyne
I bought an item from Amazon recently and I actually did receive an empty box.
Was nervous about reporting it as I was highly aware that it could easily look
like I was running a scam and I had no way to prove otherwise. Fortunately
Amazon gave me a refund. It seems that whatever policy you put in place for
this situation, some people are going to get screwed at least some of the
time.

------
dawnerd
Last time I sold on eBay I remember there being options to restrict who can
bid. Like having users that had a good track record. Do they not do that
anymore or have the scammers managed to mess that up even?

~~~
rco8786
How does one get a good track record if they can't bid on anything?

~~~
dawnerd
Plenty of things you can buy with 0 history. Mainly from large sellers that
can absorb the cost.

------
627467
I've never sold anything on eBay/Amazon because of this. For used items I'd
just try anything like Craiglist, Gumtree or alike.

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Fjolsvith
Why not put a tracking chip in the package and get the buyer's physical
address?

Or sue the buyer in small claims?

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asah
I'm surprised there isn't seller-side insurance... eBay etc all have buyer
side insurance.

------
Analemma_
eBay always, always sides with buyers. If there has been a case of eBay
successfully handling buyer fraud, I haven't heard about it. You just have to
accept it as a cost of doing business.

~~~
dawnerd
Couple years ago I won as a seller. Item was delayed by usps and the buyer
(rightfully) started the claims process. Usps delivered with a signature but
the claim was never cancelled. Eventually eBay said they reviewed it and
awarded in my favor. Granted this is a bit different than someone sending an
empty box back, eBay does sometimes actually look into it.

