
A Russian GPS Using U.S. Soil Stirs Spy Fears - eplanit
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/world/europe/a-russian-gps-using-us-soil-stirs-spy-fears.html?ref=centralintelligenceagency&_r=0
======
r0h1n
It's not just Russia, but India too has started deploying its own GPS system,
called IRNSS comprising 7 satellites primarily covering the Indian land mass.

> _With 32 satellites in orbit, GPS pretty much serves as the global
> reference. The US doesn’t share military grade signals with countries but
> civilian signals, in L1 (1575.4 MHz) and L2 (1227.6 MHz) frequencies, is
> free for all. But as is true with all innovators, it’s believed the US
> practises ‘selective denial’. In times of war, and sometimes even otherwise,
> the signals can be corrupted. Isro Chairman K Radhakrishnan says, “During
> the Gulf War, signals from some satellites were interrupted.”

> Amid such uncertainties, when the default control and navigation systems in
> defence projects are equipped with GPS devices, a country’s security rides
> on these radio signals whose control lies elsewhere. For this reason, in its
> upgraded BrahMos missile, India has added Glonass receivers to the standard
> GPS receivers because Russia, unlike US, gives access to military signals._

[http://forbesindia.com/article/real-issue/isros-very-own-
gps...](http://forbesindia.com/article/real-issue/isros-very-own-gps-is-
ready/35511/0)

~~~
s-topper
Opposition is against building GLONASS monitoring stations on US soil; not
against GLONASS or any indigenous navigation system itself.

~~~
r0h1n
Comment is against the larger point being made in the article, and I quote:

> _“They don’t want to be reliant on the American system and believe that
> their systems, like GPS, will spawn other industries and applications,” said
> a former senior official in the State Department’s Office of Space and
> Advanced Technology. “They feel as though they are losing a technological
> edge to us in an important market. Look at everything GPS has done on things
> like your phone and the movement of planes and ships.”

> The Russian effort is part of a larger global race by several countries —
> including China and European Union nations — to perfect their own global
> positioning systems and challenge the dominance of the American GPS._

~~~
nraynaud
For example France doesn't rely on GPS for military purpose, mostly using
inertial positioning systems that drift and require re-calibration. (sometimes
with dramatic effects like when 2 soldiers got killed in the wrong country in
Africa because they had drifted)

There is a giant network of ground stations around the world so that french
submarine can re-calibrate their positioning system periodically. It's a
unique solution that only works when you have territories all over the world,
since you don't want to position your nuclear power with a foreign system.

~~~
dingaling
The French military have plenty of reliance on Navstar GPS; for example the
AASM munitions used over Libya and Mali have GPS as a primary mode and INS,
IIR or laser as secondary options.

~~~
nraynaud
Yeah, I was wrong to exclude everything, sorry. As part of NATO, the GPS is
used for some stuff. It CAN be completely disabled would have been a more
accurate description.

------
gph
I doubt they really see this as an espionage threat, even though that's what
they'll spin it as.

More like a threat to the advantage of our system having dominance. Probably
means the Russians are right to be concerned about our militaries capability
to cut them off or send faulty data if we ever felt the need.

~~~
sliverstorm
On the other hand, I can just picture the Russians saying to themselves,

 _" Everyone will think we are using it to spy no matter what we do, so maybe
we might as well..."_

~~~
coldtea
As if the Russians can use that spying for any great effect...

------
steve19
Seems like a pretty simple installation. They are just monitoring (see the
Brazilian installation). If they really do need them, why not just contract it
out to a US firm, who simply relay the data. That should satisfy the spies.

Is an accurate Russian GPS competitor really that bad? Its not like ICBM's
need ultra precise positioning. By the time nukes start falling ... its
already all over.

~~~
Zancarius
> Its not like ICBM's need ultra precise positioning. By the time nukes start
> falling ... its already all over.

I'm pretty sure that due to the nature of an ICBM's flight path, they can't
use GPS. AFAIK, they all use extremely precise inertial navigation systems.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Optical tracking system to triangulate star positions, i.e. star trackers.

[http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/missile/icbm.htm](http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/missile/icbm.htm)

[https://www.opci.com/ocns.htm](https://www.opci.com/ocns.htm)

~~~
Zancarius
Near as I can tell, only Chinese missiles currently use star tracking devices
[1]. US and Russian ICBMs use inertial guidance.

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-31](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-31)

------
e12e
On a related note, does anyone know if it is possible/how hard it is to get an
accurate read on a handful of stars/pulsar in all weather/light conditions
using a radio telescope? Or indeed what the state of the art is on "passive"
computer/database assisted navigation?

I'd imagine with high accuracy clocks, much and high-precision information on
celestial bodies, there should've been some advancements in this area? Or will
the resolution (due to atmospheric effects etc) be too low for it to be
useful?

~~~
synthos
I could see it being tough near cities that give off so much excess light at
night anyways. Were you thinking visible spectrum?

~~~
e12e
I was guessing there might be a few (enough) stars that would be easier to
spot (with deterministic precision) in the radio spectrum?

------
simcop2387
Things like this make me believe that the cold war never truly ended. It just
shifted gears again into a different type of "war". I think it's a more
productive form again since we're trying to keep up technologically against
them instead of fighting as many proxy wars. I think China entering the foray
might be part of what has spurned some of this competition.

~~~
sliverstorm
The cold war definitely deescalated. Considering there was never open
conflict, it's hard to point to a spot where all tensions whatsoever
dissolved, considering superpowers are always going to have a little tension
between them here or there.

------
cantrevealname
> _Indeed, many smartphones and other consumer navigation systems sold in the
> United States today use data from both countries’ satellites._

That was surprising news for me. I had no idea that other GPS-like systems had
come so far. Wikipedia says,

"GPS and phone baseband chips from major vendors ST-Ericsson, Broadcom and
Qualcomm all support GLONASS in combination with GPS. Smartphones and Tablets
also saw implementation of GLONASS support in 2011 with devices released that
year from Xiaomi Tech Company (Xiaomi Phone 2), Sony Ericsson, Samsung (the
Google Nexus 10 in late 2012), Asus, Apple (iPhone 4S and iPad Mini in late
2012) and HTC adding support for the system." \--
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS)

~~~
dingaling
No so much a case of having 'come so far' as 'bouncing back'; the first
satellite in the GLONASS network was launched in 1982, after a decade of
development. IoC was 1993.

International access was offered in 1996, but this coincided with a decline in
funding and waning of coverage. It took until 2011 to patch the gaps in the
constellation.

------
coin
Strictly speaking, GPS refers to the US military's GNSS (Global Navigation
Satellite System). The Russian GNSS is called GLONASS, not "GPS".

~~~
acqq
Neither GPS nor GLONASS are just "military" systems in sense that they are
also used commercially. And:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System)

"GPS is owned and operated by the United States Government as a national
resource."

------
tedivm
Are there any GPS monitoring stations in Russia?

~~~
swatkat
No. From the article:

    
    
       The United States has stations around the world, but none in Russia.

~~~
vadiml
The russian press affirms that there are 19 US GPS monitoring stations in
Russia

------
michaelwww
The solution seems plain: Give the U.S. a spec and funds to build whatever is
needed for Roscosmos on U.S. Soil.

------
mknits
And what about the just reverse?

