
Malaysia B772 has crashed near Donetsk - jahaja
http://avherald.com/h?article=47770f9d&opt=0
======
k-mcgrady
Some interesting info on the speculation it was shot down:

A defence expert has told the BBC that shooting down a plane at 10,000m (9.7
miles) would have required a long- range surface-to-air missile - possibly
guided by radar.

That suggests it is unlikely it could have been downed by a portable air
defence missile, or Manpad, which has a much shorter range.

The only other possibility is for an aircraft at that height to be downed by a
fighter carrying air-to-air missiles.

The US will have access to satellite imagery that should be able to identify
ultra-violet plumes if a long-range surface-to-air missile was fired.

Source: [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-
europe-28354856](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28354856)

Edit:

Amateur video reportedly showing aftermath of the crash (from a distance):

[http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/17/malaysia-...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/17/malaysia-
airlines-flight-mh17-crashes-ukraine-video)

~~~
Alupis
Just curious why the US would play any role in this situation... it's a
Malaysian plane, over Ukraine, coming from the EU. Seems like the EU should be
tasking their satellite's, or even Russia.

~~~
richardwhiuk
You can't task a satelite to monitor for an explosion after the fact...

~~~
TheCraiggers
You think those imaging satellites aren't constantly recording everything they
see and sending it somewhere? Especially in and around such a hot area as the
Ukraine, I'm sure there is near-constant surveillance.

It would be a waste of resources otherwise.

~~~
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC
Except there probably aren't quite enough satellites to always have one over
that area? Plus, yeah, downlink bandwidth probably wouldn't be sufficient
anyway.

~~~
clarky07
surely Ukraine is a priority right now though, right?

~~~
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC
And how does that increase the number of satellites in orbit or the available
downlink bandwidth?

------
peterjancelis
Interfax said it was shot down. Russia - via their ambassador at the United
Nations - denied involvement already.

Let's hope this plane won't be the Franz Ferdinand 100 years later.

Edit: I am talking about the US-Russian relationship deteriorating because of
the (blamed) intent, not the number of casualties or the strength of the
Malaysian army.

Edit 2: Thanks for the links on previous situations like this. Reassuring.

~~~
pjc50
It's overwhelmingly likely to have been shot down by "Ukrainian rebels", who
are Russian-backed.

It's not going to be the end of the world unless someone very high profile was
on board, but it will further worsen relations with Russia. Malaysia isn't
exactly a nuclear superpower. A US airliner would be a lot closer to end of
the world territory.

Number of civilian casualties is roughly comparable to those in the past few
weeks in Gaza.

~~~
slg
>Number of civilian casualties is roughly comparable to those in the past few
weeks in Gaza.

That comparison is interesting. What is it about planes that draws so much
attention when something like this happens? It is barely news when a couple
hundred civilians die on the ground in a war zone, but put the same civilians
in the air and the whole world pays attention.

EDIT: Some people have mentioned that Gaza is all over the news but I would
make the argument that the civilian casualties aren't what is making news.
What is making news is the eruption of hostilities in the first place. For
example, compare the coverage of Gaza to Iraq, Ukraine, etc. There have been
several times more civilian casualties in numerous other active war zones this
month, but they aren't new conflicts so news agencies aren't focusing on them.

~~~
caio1982
A bunch of random people with different life stories together inside a tin can
flying thanks to physics' magic exploding fuel at 800km/h. It's something that
a lot of people can relate to as millions fly every single day not really
expecting to die, specially over a war zone. That's why we pay attention. The
massacre in Gaza is pretty important as well, but an entirely different story.

~~~
reitanqild
Define massacre, please.

Last I checked it was defined like this:

"""massacre/ˈmasəkə/

    
    
      noun
    
        an indiscriminate and brutal slaughter of many people.
    
      verb
    
        deliberately and brutally kill (many people).

"""

Tell me how what happens in Gaza is consistent with "indiscriminate" and
"deliberately" as long as only launch sites and weapons caches are targeted
and warnings are sent out well in advance, something I haven't heard any other
army has ever done so consistently before. (And I will happily tell you that I
don't think the Israelis are without fault. I just want this sick twisting of
referential frames to stay away from hn.)

------
sivers
I'm scheduled to be on that exact same flight in 10 days, so I'm not thinking
very clearly about this right now.

Can a cool disconnected mind give me a rational perspective on this?

Does logic dictate I have nothing to worry about? ("Lightning doesn't strike
twice in the same place" argument.)

Or does logic say I would be smarter to lose some $$, and book a different
airline and route? ("Lighting does strike twice in the same place" argument.)

Thoughts?

~~~
austenallred
Chances are they won't fly in the same location. Lufthansa has already
rerouted flights scheduled to go over around the eastern Ukrainian airspace, I
can't imagine Malaysian not following suit. It's not like they have the best
track record at the moment.

UPDATE: The FAA just prohibited flying over that airspace. So I would be blown
away if your plane continued flying there.

UPDATE: Air France now, too.

UPDATE: Even three Russian airlines are re-routing, which will be difficult
for some flights heading west from Moscow. No word from Malaysian... they've
probably got bigger fish to fry at the moment.

UPDATE: British Airways and Air Canada, too.

~~~
freehunter
How far out does the FAA's jurisdiction go?

~~~
snowwrestler
I believe U.S.-based airplanes fly around in a little bubble of U.S. laws,
just like ships at sea under the U.S. flag.

~~~
jarin
They're subject to the jurisdiction of whoever's airspace they're in as well.

------
blantonl
Regardless of what caused this plane to go down, how Malaysia Airlines
survives as a company going forward will be study in crisis management for
many years.

~~~
alextgordon
It may be much more damaging to them. As far as anybody knows, MH370 wasn't
the fault of Malaysia Airlines.

 _This_ is a whole another level. If they really approved a flight plan to fly
over a war zone... I just can't... WTF.

~~~
ceejayoz
Passenger planes fly over Iraq and Afghanistan regularly, without incident.
There was not much reason to believe Ukraine or the rebels would be idiotic
enough to target civilian passenger planes in this manner.

~~~
omegant
During the hard times of the war no commercial planes flew over Irak or
Afghanistan. There is no problem flying through zones with low capability
insurgency, it's done all the time. But given the high tension nature ofthe
Ukranian conflict it just doesn't make sense to fly over that areas.

I recently flew to Moscow and our route was quite far to the north, but I
would have changed it if necessary. It's a pilot's decission, but also a
flight planer and Chief pilot hands to modify dangerous routes.

~~~
ceejayoz
Every point of the Iraq and Afghan wars have been "harder times" than the
current Ukraine conflict.

------
vondur
Supposed tweet from someone from the Pro Russian rebels:
[http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bswg7UGCQAAtv47.jpg](http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bswg7UGCQAAtv47.jpg)

Someone on slashdot translated it as:

"Near Torez (city) an An-26 airplane was just shot down, it crashed somewhere
beyond "Progress" mine site. We warned beforehand - do not fly over "our
zone". Here's another video proof of the next "birdfall". A birdie crashed
down beyond terricon (mine excavation site), missed living areas. Population
not harmed. We also allegedly have info on another SU-25 shot down".

If that's true, they have mistaken it for a transport plane and shot it down.

------
etimberg
Reuters quoting Interfax reports that it was brought down by a surface to air
missile.
[https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/489795394411712513](https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/489795394411712513)

~~~
doe88
I'm wondering, if it is confirmed it is a missile, are there any precedent of
civilian plane shot-down like that in modern history (post WWII)?

Edit: Thanks great replies!

~~~
Ecio78
La Strage di Ustica ("Ustica Massacre"):
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerolinee_Itavia_Flight_870](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerolinee_Itavia_Flight_870)

After more than 30 years we still don't know for sure what happened...

~~~
toyg
Well, we actually do, really. The French government refused for 30 years to
have their pilots interviewed about the issue, relenting only very recently.
They even deployed a cover operation to take charge of recovering the relic
and mislead investigators. NATO actively impeded investigation at various
points, quoting secrecy rules etc etc. The Italian military miraculously
"failed" to keep proper records of their radars, and the government actively
misled investigators and the public at the time.

It's now widely accepted that the Itavia 870 was downed by a NATO plane,
likely French, likely engaged in some sort of anti-Lybic operation.

~~~
Ecio78
Yes, but I meant, with all the details, and with all the nations involved
taking their own responsibilities. Who knows, maybe in 50 years they will
unveil the state secrecy and we'll know it for sure..

------
mkr-hn
As with all tragedies, be skeptical of early reports. Especially those that
identify a cause.

------
mladenkovacevic
Somebody really really wants this war to proceed and won't take no for an
answer.

~~~
qwerta
This just sucks. Ukraine used to be very nice and safe country for
backpacking. Now it will turn into Somalia.

~~~
gk1
Really? This is what bothers you the most about this war?

I don't think you'll have any trouble finding other poor countries that
haven't yet erupted in full-out war.

~~~
qwerta
And what I am suppose to write? I have friends there, and it is practically in
my backyard.

------
eliben
Isn't the Donetsk area a war zone now? Why do commercial flights fly over it?

~~~
lsh123
They closed airspace up to FL260 (I believe). The 777 was probably at FL360 or
above.

~~~
john_b
Interfax claims it was flying at 10km:
[https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/489794112212959232](https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/489794112212959232)

~~~
lsh123
10Km ~ FL330. It is lower than I would expect (the higher you go the less fuel
you burn) but still well above FL260.

------
lsh123
This is not the first case of missiles hitting a plane in Ukraine in recent
history:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812)

------
pinkskip
This is so tragic, A second MAS plane involved in an incident in 2014.
Thoughts are with the loved ones and families of the people onboard MH17

------
micahgoulart
First pictures of the downed plane are already showing up on Twitter.
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BswmWPwIIAAAZi1.jpg:large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BswmWPwIIAAAZi1.jpg:large)

------
dm2
Does anyone have any idea what types of terrorist controlled surface-to-air
missiles would be able to take out this aircraft?

Would any of these systems have prevented it?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_Guardian](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_Guardian)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMPS](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMPS)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Guard](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Guard)

BTW, according to the Guardian article a MANPAD can be purchased for as little
as $5,000.

Apparently this was something else such as
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system)

I know this happened before, but shooting down civilian aircraft cannot be
tolerated.

~~~
tdobson
Some media reports say (citing official ukrian reports and AP visuals in the
region)
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system)

~~~
dm2
That's what this article says: [http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/17/us-
ukraine-crash-a...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/17/us-ukraine-
crash-airplane-idUSKBN0FM1TU20140717)

What is a "Pro-Russian militant"? At what point are they considered part of
the Russian armed forces?

~~~
knodi123
when they are wearing a uniform and holding an official rank

~~~
dm2
Are these types of "terrorists" targeted by Putin or are they ignored because
they're not targeting Russians?

------
steven2012
From StratFor:

Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur with 280
passengers and 15 crew onboard went down over Shakhtyorsk, Ukraine 50
kilometers (20 miles) from the Russo-Ukrainian border on July 17, an aviation
industry source said, Interfax reported. The Ukrainian Interior Ministry said
that pro-Russia separatists shot it down with a 9K37 Buk surface-to-air
missile system, while separatist leader Alexander Borodai accused Kiev's
forces of shooting down the plane, Reuters reported. Kiev previously
designated the areas of fighting in the east an "anti-terrorist operation"
zone, limiting civilian flights to 7,900 meters (23,000 feet) and in
compliance the flight was at 10,000 meters (33,000).

------
larkinrichards
There was a call for a No Fly Zone over Donetsk on June 2nd[1], but it doesn't
appear to have been implemented. Still, that should have been a warning to all
airlines to steer clear.

I wouldn't want to blame Malaysia Airlines for this one, but I feel like the
route planning tools should include indicators for all known active combat
zones with the option to navigate around them.

[1] [http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/zyuganov-calls-
for-n...](http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/zyuganov-calls-for-no-fly-
zone-over-donbas-luhansk-region-350348.html)

------
lsh123
As usual, we should wait for the results of official investigation. Right now
all versions are equally possible: ground-to-air missile from either side,
malfunctioning air-to-air missile on a fighter jet, UFO, ...

As many correctly pointed out, there is a civil war going on in this region.
These days the military war also means propaganda war. Thus, there will be all
kind of statements by "officials". Unless you want to join the propaganda war
yourself, I would suggest that you do not repeat this crap and wait for
investigation results.

------
lsh123
5th hull-loss and 2nd crash with fatalities for 777.

EDIT: I am not saying that 777 should withstand SAM attack. However these
numbers are remarkable and show the reliability of the plane that have been in
operations for almost 20 years and flew in all corners of the world.

~~~
modoc
Hard to blame the airframe if it really was a SAM....

~~~
lsh123
It just shows how reliable is 777

~~~
lsh123
I guess people misunderstand my comment - I am not saying 777 (or any other
plane) can withstand the SAM. It's remarkable that in almost 20 years in
operations all over the world, only a very small number of planes have been
lost.

~~~
crazypyro
I apologize for the downvotes your comment received then. (Not from me)

I think many people, myself included, wrongly assumed you were insulting the
quality of the 777, not complimenting it.

~~~
lsh123
Thanks for the note. I guess the numbers are so obvious for me that I didn't
expect others to react so differently.

------
mp4box
looks like this is the flight

[http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/10...](http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK)

------
speeq
First photos of debris: [http://imgur.com/a/s7AkM](http://imgur.com/a/s7AkM)

From the crash site (WARNING GRAPHIC / NSFL):
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BswpDkqIcAAp6Wp.jpg:orig](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BswpDkqIcAAp6Wp.jpg:orig)

------
spacefight
Avherald might be slow, copy is at
[http://www.aeroinside.com/item/4365/malaysia-b772-near-
donet...](http://www.aeroinside.com/item/4365/malaysia-b772-near-donetsk-on-
jul-17th-2014-disappeared-from-radar)

------
ulfw
Who would have thought that the safest route from Europe to Asia would be via
Iran? (Wars in Syria, Iraq, Ukraine)

[http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=AMS-IST-THR-KUL,+AMS-
KUL](http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=AMS-IST-THR-KUL,+AMS-KUL)

~~~
scarmig
Not too surprising. After all, the only passenger airliner that's been shot
down in Iranian history was an Iranian one by the USA.

------
aarongray
Didn't someone ask a question about flying over warzones on here recently?
Seems like everyone told them not to worry, Manpad's can't reach a commercial
airliner, so you have nothing to worry about. Ironic.

~~~
xentronium
"Rebels" have BUK mobile SAMs.

------
Oculus
History always repeats itself:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007)

------
qvolte
Not sure whether this is true

[https://twitter.com/ReutersWorld/statuses/489795402892591104](https://twitter.com/ReutersWorld/statuses/489795402892591104)

------
downandout
Pictures of wreckage:

[http://t.co/2o0SGVnjbE](http://t.co/2o0SGVnjbE)

[http://t.co/z4byDeovcp](http://t.co/z4byDeovcp)

------
brainless
Is it too much to speculate that Malaysia Airlines or Malaysia is being
targeted?

Two flights in a year. Bringing a plane down from 33,000 feet is not that
easy.

~~~
eclipxe
Yes, it is too much to speculate that.

------
jonnycowboy
Last known position right around Ukraine/Russian border.

~~~
justnotsure
This. All I need to know what happened.

~~~
toyg
I wouldn't jump to conclusions if I were you -- from the actual track
record[1], it looks like _the middle_ of the country, rather than near the
border. It's not even over one of the "troubled" eastern regions, nowhere near
"rebels" or Russian troops.

[1]
[https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/489795658879348737/...](https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/489795658879348737/photo/1)

~~~
justnotsure
Doneck region isn't troubled Eastern region? Where are you getting your news
from? KGB TV aka Russia TV ?

~~~
toyg
Mh, ok, apologies - i trusted the pic rather than the report. The pic shows a
position well outside the Donetsk area.

Still, it's weird that the last tracked position shown on that pic is to the
West of Donetsk and very much outside the troubled area, but the reported
crash site is just to the East of Donetsk, deep into "rebel" territory. Could
that be an artifact of the tracking system?

------
Alupis
Reports are stating they believe it may have been shot down.

------
clarky07
How is this on page 3 with 344 points 4 hours in? Which moderator killed this?
If this isn't news that people would want to know about I don't know what is.

~~~
altcognito
So, Hacker News is not a "pure" news source. It's primarily tech news. Don't
look for a conspiracy, as it's completely up to the moderators as to what
stays on the front page. Effectively, it's curated. I like the mix here. Not
everything has to be covered by a popular "news" site.

------
jackau
Crazy world

------
yaakov34
Ukraine has previously closed all airspace over the east of the country to
civilian flights.

I know that lynch mobs form very quickly online, especially to attack
unpopular people, but in this case, the responsibility of directing a civilian
plane into closed airspace over a rebel-held region where a vicious battle
with tanks, airplanes, and artillery has raged for months is shared between
two parties: the Ukrainian air traffic control (the airplane crossed the
length of the country before being shot down) and the pilots.

Now, these rebels may be the worst people in the world since Cain - I am not
taking up the politics of this at all - but even if they did shoot this plane
down, they acted reasonably given their military situation: they have no
aviation of their own and they are bombed frequently by Ukrainian jets, while
no civilian traffic has flown anywhere near them since April.

------
yuvadam
Unrelated but relevant: TWA 800 crashed off the coast of NY on July 17, 1996,
18 years ago.

[Why the downvotes? Clearly stated _unrelated_. Just a stupid fact.]

~~~
Someone1234
It never ceases to surprise me how Americans can turn any international story
into one about America or how it somehow links to an American event.

The TWA incident couldn't be less similar to this or have any real
similarities at all. They both involve aircraft crashes, granted, but that is
as far as it goes.

Oh and before you claim you weren't trying to Americanify this incident let me
point out that there have been four commercial airline crashes on July 17th.
TWA 800 is not even the most recent.

July 17th 2007 – TAM Airlines Flight 3054, an Airbus A320, crashes at
Congonhas-São Paulo Airport, Brazil, killing all 187 people on board and 12 on
the ground. Yet you bring up one from 1964, why is that?

~~~
mindrag
You're an ass. Nobody is trying to "Americanify" the event. They are simply
remembering another event that is linked to the current one by coincidence.
The anti-American knee-jerk reaction is 10x worse than any
"Americanification".

~~~
Someone1234
Then why didn't they bring up one of the three other events, including more
recent ones? Those also share that same coincidence.

It is clear that the only point in bringing up a plane crash in the 1960s as
opposed to any of the others (including more recent ones, see 2007) was to
make it more relevant to Americans.

Is it really an "anti-American knee-jerk" for calling people out for clearly
trying to take international events and to twist them into a discussion about
your own local issues/problems/incidents? It happens all the freaking time on
here, and it is often by the same nationality trying to turn everything into a
"well how does this apply to America?"

Also petty name calling, really?

~~~
mindrag
The TWA 800 plane crash referred to by the OC happened in 1996 (not in the
1960s). So a lot of Americans have memories of that event as well as the
aftermath (which dragged on for years).

> twist them into a discussion about your own local issues/problems/incidents

Again, not really sure why this offends you so much. There may not be a lot of
value in pointing out this particular coincidence, but it's certainly not
intended to pull attention from the tragedy that just occurred. It's
just...conversation. Isn't that why we're here on HN?

------
korzun
Malaysia Airlines should be shut down.

They can't keep track of their planes and can't properly investigate crashes.

Now they are sending a plane over an active war zone with air space
restrictions (hint: even if its restricted to 10K, flying at 30K is not OK).

Feels like they are running a amateur shit show over there with little to no
regulations.

I can picture bunch of ex-cab drivers who are no in charge of plane routing
green lighting this flight in between their 100th smoke break.

~~~
jlmorton
Malaysia Airlines is a respected, professional airline. We have no idea what
happened to either flight, and it's rather unfair to suggest Malaysia Airlines
should be "shut down."

~~~
catkin
I think that's the point - nobody has any idea what happened to these two
Malaysia Airlines flights and /that's/ why they should be shut down.

EDIT: to clarify, I don't believe Malaysia Airlines should be shut down, just
trying to clarify OPs comment.

~~~
jlmorton
You believe that Malaysia Airlines should know within about 90 minutes whether
one of their planes was shot down by a surface-to-air missile?

Do you believe United Airlines would know such a thing?

Air France did not know what happened to AF447 for several years until the
wreckage was found.

No airlines are in a position to investigate the cause of their crashes. These
tasks fall to national agencies, such as the NTSB in the United States.

Airlines neither manufacture their jets, nor have access to all the territory
they fly over. They merely operate them.

Unless you can point to some exceptional flaw in the management of Malaysia
Airlines, it's absurd to suggest a well-respected airline should be shut down.

