
Ask HN: Programmer Unions? - nosuchthing
Seems like a no brainer for skilled programmers.<p>Especially considering the no poach, &#x27;non-compete&#x27; deals made between Apple, Google, Intel, Adobe, Intuit, Pixar and Lucasfilm — which has suppressed wages.<p>Programmer unions could even be fun, competitive qualification tests, union co-op projects, many interesting possibilities.<p>If it&#x27;s practical for teamsters and floor coverers [1] to unionize, why not computer specialists?<p>[1] http:&#x2F;&#x2F;nyfloorcoverers.com&#x2F;
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stephengillie
Many people have a stigma about unions. There are many corrupt unions, and
many unions that are dominated by bad actors. And they clash with the
individualism that many of us feel. And there's lack of trust concerning
"We're paying the union all this money, what are they doing with it?"

I was in a union when I was a grocery store worker. We were negotiating a new
contract - several grocery unions on one side and one person on the other side
to represent the 5 major grocery companies - and there was a vote taken when
my union representative was not present. We were bound by it because we had
already agreed to this type of negotiation. (It wasn't a bad deal.)

Some unions, such as the local Welder's union, act as an employment agency for
union members too. When your job ends or lays you off, you put your name on
their job board and wait for a job. Employers call the union and get
whomever's at the top of the list.

~~~
nosuchthing
I could imagine a programers union being able to prove much greater
transparency in collective decision making, and paper trails of expenditures.

------
turk-
Unions have their purpose but mainly serve unskilled labor. It has a lot to do
with the nature of the work. Similar to the reason why lawyers, doctors,
architects and accountants don't have labor unions. Unions also tend to be
anti-technology as technology tends to automate peoples jobs.

Collective bargaining has little to offer white collar workers.

The additional utility offered by collective bargaining for programmers is
probably not larger than the negative utility of having to pay a middleman
army of union organizers, employees and lawyers.

~~~
jefurii
_Similar to the reason why lawyers, doctors, architects and accountants don 't
have labor unions._

What about the American Bar Association, American Medical Association, and
other similar groups? They're maybe more like guilds, but they also do a lot
of lobbying on behalf of their profession, and provide group insurance and
other services.

~~~
Terr_
[https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/programmers-...](https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/programmers-
dont-need-a-union-we-need-a-profession/)

~~~
gspetr
Last I checked, Michael is now pro-union:
[https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/it-might-
be-...](https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/it-might-be-time-for-
software-engineers-especially-in-silicon-valley-to-unionize/)

------
chrisbennet
The collective bargaining thing is a non-starter IMO but it would be nice to
have an organization that looked out for developers legislatively, helped
freelancers with contracts, etc.

In the US at least, unions are only in it for themselves. Take the recent push
by California unions for a $15hr minimum wage - _except_ for their own
members. Yes, they want an exception to the law so their members can be paid
_less_ than minimum wage. [1]

[1] [http://www.latimes.com/local/cityhall/la-me-union-
exemption-...](http://www.latimes.com/local/cityhall/la-me-union-
exemption-20150726-story.html#page=1)

~~~
mcv
I'm member of a sort of union for self-employed/freelancers, though not
specifically programmers. They advise on contracts and taxes, offer very cheap
legal advice and support, and of course they lobby with the government for
better legal support for self-employed people and freelancers. Of course they
don't negotiate for me; I'm self-employed, so that's my job.

There's a few of these organizations in Netherland: one from the major labour
union, the others independent.

EDIT: The bit about LA unions arguing for _lower_ wages is bizarre. That's
completely contrary to their purpose. Hard to imagine that an organization
calling itself a union would do that to their members.

------
jasonkester
It's a bit frightening to read the discussion here and see the only sensible
opinion below downvoted. Because this really is a no brainer. Unions are a
terrible idea for skilled programmers.

To be honest, it's all about money. Does anybody honestly believe that the
Union Rate for skilled developers would be over $400k/year? That seems
unlikely. Chances are it'll come in somewhere between $70k and $100k, exactly
where it is today.

Imagine we get a good bump though. 20%, 50%, even 100% and now we're up to
$150k or even $200k. Where does that put us? At about _half_ what a guy can
negotiate for himself today if he's genuinely good at what he does.

That leaves the question: why would a truly skilled programmer ever join a
union? Anybody capable of basic arithmetic would give it a pass, leaving the
"Skilled Developer Union" holding all the developers _except_ the skilled
ones. In practice, the union would be where you go to get average developers,
and a Union Shop would be a place where you could expect to go work with
average people doing average things. By definition, they wouldn't be able to
hire non-union devs, since those guys won't join the club. And if you were in
fact good, but in that union, there would be no way to get yourself that truly
good (and achievable today without unions) bill rate except by leaving the
union.

I don't see any possible upside.

~~~
mcv
> By definition, they wouldn't be able to hire non-union devs, since those
> guys won't join the club.

Why by definition? There's no reason why a company can't hire a mix of union
and non-union members, as union membership is none of an employer's business.
Except of course that the union may negotiate rates on behalf of its members.

It has an upside for devs who are good at programming but not good at
negotiation.

That said, software developers probably don't have unions for the same reason
other highly educated, highly paid professionals tend not to have unions. We
have plenty of power and options already.

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EnderMB
This link has already been posted, but I think it deserves some discussion
around the subject of unions.

[https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/programmers-...](https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/programmers-
dont-need-a-union-we-need-a-profession/)

A union doesn't necessarily seem suited for software development. As people
have already explained in much better details than I'd manage, a union aims to
help all, but exceptional programmers would be limited by trying to keep
everyone to the same level. Some of us would get a pay rise, but many more of
us would see a significant drop in salaries, and that's not really fair to
those that can justify that kind of salary.

Turning Software Development into a chartered profession seems like a no
brainer to me, and I'd be interested in opinions as to why this hasn't
happened already. In my mind, one reason is obvious, and that's the fact that
hardly anyone seems to know the best way to do anything. More often than not,
there's a huge difference in how one company and one stack will do something
compared to another. Hell, two groups could write entirely different code
based on something ultimately trivial, like their choice of CMS. Any
professional body would need to be tech agnostic while also being able to set
a high standard for anyone in professional development.

In all honesty, I think most software developers write code for absolute
peanuts when you consider how vital the code is to the running of a business.
I imagine that becoming a chartered profession would go much further than a
union towards ensuring that software developers are protected in not just pay,
but ensuring that they are fully able to write the best code they can.

~~~
gspetr
You and another comment below seem to be behind times. Last I checked, Michael
is now pro-union: [https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/it-might-
be-...](https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/it-might-be-time-for-
software-engineers-especially-in-silicon-valley-to-unionize/)

~~~
EnderMB
Could both not exist together? I have to claim ignorance on the idea of unions
and chartered professions, because I've never worked in an industry where
they've been an option. In the UK, unions tend to have a bad rep, and any time
I've mentioned in around other British developers most have flatly rejected
the idea of having a union (mostly for the reasons mentioned in the follow-up
article you've posted).

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noname123
IMHO, if we are more united and concerned about our professions as a whole.

We'd organize to have professional licensing boards to artificially limit the
supply of "licensed" coders and raise wages (e.g., American Medical
Association that regulate MCAT/MLE Step exams, State Boards that administer
bar exams etc, PE/professional engineer licenses).

But I'd like to consider coders as less calculating and more socialist that
allows people from non-traditional backgrounds make the effort to join the
ranks; and also heed to its "blue collar" technical roots than try to aspire
to be elitist like doctors or lawyers.

~~~
skwosh
Licensing etc feels like it would work with the larger and more homogeneous
parts of the industry (creating a more fungible work force). Outside of that
environment, technology varies so much between companies, and changes so much
over time that licensing around certain technological stacks/skills seems
naïve.

I'm not sure it's that easy to quantify the (more) important and transferable
skills like abstract thinking, project estimation, team work, being able to
learn quickly, etc.

Coding is closer to an art (like journeyman carpentry) than a discipline (like
engineering), and therefore better judged on reputation, portfolio, etc,
criteria that the industry already embodies.

/imo

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loumf
It's a hard question (not a no-brainer IMO).

Rather than look at floor coverers, I'd look at other creatives like movie/TV
script writers. They are unionized, and what they do is hard to characterize
as unskilled or commoditized.

Pay is more transparent, but the very best still command top salaries.

I think one difference is that it's easier to correlate the quality of their
output with the quality of the end-product because the teams tend to be very
small.

------
imauld
I don't really see the need for one but it would be a really powerful union.

"Give us all a raise or we shut the internet off"

------
NY_hudson
if you get a Programmer Union, you're going to need several locals:

PHP local

Haskell local

C local

etc

~~~
mateo411
and obviously /usr/local

That one is for UNIX System Administrators.

~~~
NY_hudson
and /usr/local/bin ? there's a joke there somewhere

------
paulhauggis
Unions aren't 'fun'. They're serious business.

"Seems like a no brainer for skilled programmers."

Why? As a skilled developer, I can freely move from one job to another as
employers are begging to get me to work for them. Why would I want to be
limited by my co-workers?

Unions are generally for people that

1) Can easily be replaced. 2) Don't have good negotiating skills

On top of this, it just makes it more difficult for anyone in their dorm room
to start a business. It's not a coincidence that the startup scene is nearly
non-existent where unions have a strong presence (France, Sweden, Denmark,
Norway).

~~~
obrero
> Unions are generally for people that...Don't have good negotiating skills

Wow, it's amazing that you have _such incredible negotiating skills_ that you
can beat out a Fortune 500 companies human resources department, their outside
lawyers that make you sign an employment and terms of service agreement, and
who have a boilerplate of similar agreements for all the other firms they have
done this for etc.

The hubris you have in saying this is farcicial. The fact is that you as an
individual do _not_ have the skills to out-negotiate this leviathan. You sound
ridiculous claiming that you do have the skills to do this. This is why unions
have massive legal teams, lobbyists and so forth. You may be right or wrong
whether being in a union would currently be better for you, but the notion
that you as an individual have super-negotiating powers, and that only losers
when faced with a pack of lawyers need their own pack of lawyers, is risible.
_You_ do not have good negotiating skills because you're too dumb and
hubristic to know that you're outmatched. These companies are laughing at you
in that you think you're outmatching their negotiating teams singlehandedly.
Why are they hiring you? Because for every dollar you make in salary, they are
making $1 + $X off of you. They wouldn't hire you otherwise. That $X you are
leaving on the table while patting yourself on the back about what a good
negotiator you are. By the way, workers in the same jobs, one union and
negotiated by a team of lawyers, one non-union - studies show the workers who
have the contract negotiated by a union statistically get a better contract,
more wages etc.

~~~
jasonkester
Doesn't matter. All those lawyers from that Fortune 500 company negotiating
non-stop for a year aren't going to be able to buy that house at the end of
Malibu point for the same price as a similarly sized one out in Chatsworth.
There's only _one_ of that house, and it costs what it costs. Take it or leave
it.

That's the position that good developers find themselves in today.

Yes, there are a lot of ordinary devs out there who would be happy if they
didn't have to negotiate to stand out from the other ordinary devs. But
really, if you're an ordinary dev, the better plan would be to work towards
being an extraordinary dev, the kind of which there exists only one, right out
at the end of the point in Malibu.

That's very achievable in today's job market. Think long and hard before you
throw that away for the security of a Union.

~~~
nosuchthing
Exceptionalism does work for the 1%.

Unions are simply a pool of skilled laborers whom know they are being paid
less than they're worth. Any other assumptions of limitations imposed upon a
union member are up to the actual terms of a specific union group.

Nothing about unions existing would change much about the highest skilled
groups of (non-union) programmers.

