
Ticketmaster changes policy, no longer offering refunds on postponed shows - fortran77
https://metalinjection.net/its-just-business/ticketmaster-changes-policy-no-longer-offering-refunds-on-postponed-shows
======
danhak
This policy is against California law:

California BPC 22507: "The ticket price of any event which is canceled,
postponed, or rescheduled shall be fully refunded to the purchaser by the
ticket seller upon request. Any local jurisdiction may require a ticket seller
to provide a bond of not more than fifty thousand dollars ($50,000) to provide
for any refunds that may be required by this section." (Added by Stats. 1986,
Ch. 378, Sec. 1.)

Ticketmaster is based in California. IANAL and don't know how this law might
apply to events that are held elsewhere.

~~~
reaperducer
My guess is Ticketmaster simply doesn't care. It's a cost of doing business
for them.

Six years from now, 400,000 people will get postcards in the mail telling them
that they're part of a class action settlement over this.

The class action lawyers will get second houses with third boats.

The lawyers on Ticketmaster's side will get nice bonuses for saving the
company money.

The 50,000 people who actually responded to the postcard will get 53¢ each.

~~~
aschatten
There are 2 other options: 1\. Small claims court 2\. Filing complain with
California Department of Consumer Affairs

~~~
dimator
Ya but I wouldn't be surprised if the Ticketmaster TOS that you sign (click)
makes you give up your suing rights in favor of arbitration or worse.

~~~
ulucs
Actually I hope they do, because an arbitration DDOS will cause them much more
pain than a case action.

------
lalaland1125
It's not legal for Ticketmaster to retroactively change their policy on old
bookings. Unfortunately many other entities are misbehaving in a similar
manner. (For example way.com is performing similar shenanigans by changing
their policy on March 25th and then claiming that their new policy applies to
all reservations after February 25th.)

Make sure to keep your rights in mind when companies misbehave:

1\. You can submit a negative review online

2\. You can file a credit card chargeback

3\. You can submit a complaint to your attorney general

4\. You can sue them in small claims court

Other key note: Do not accept gift cards or credit for future bookings. A
refund by definition is cash and that credit will be worthless when those
companies declare bankruptcy shortly.

~~~
hjkgfdfgh
Good luck with the chargeback. I tried to open one with Amex online and it was
insta-denied with a note to the effect that I needed to work it out with
Ticketmaster myself. I'm hoping Amex phone support is willing to work with me,
whenever I make it through.

Ticketmaster's phone support tells you to open a live chat, then hangs up on
you. When you open a live chat you get a canned response that the show is
postponed and to go away until it's either canceled or rescheduled... then
auto ends chat.

If nothing else, I can at least enjoy the minor irony that is getting fucked
by the machine over a few Rage Against the Machine tickets.

~~~
lalaland1125
I am not a lawyer, but I believe you can sue Amex in small claims court as
well for not doing due diligence on a chargeback request.

~~~
asdfasgasdgasdg
You can sue almost anybody anywhere for anything. Whether you'll prevail on
your claims is another question. What makes you think that such a lawsuit
would prevail? E.g. have you read amex's terms and did they agree there to
arbitrate disputes unconditionally? Or is there a law you're aware of that
requires them to?

------
rhombocombus
This is completely unsurprising. Ticketmaster's entire business model seems to
be monopolizing ticket sales and then gouging the consumer, so one last stick
in the eye from them seems in character.

~~~
TAForObvReasons
Ticketmaster's business model is to take the reputation hit and allow venues
and performers to increase fees. This specific move is probably driven by
greedy venues. [https://stubcrew.com/the-ugly-truth-about-ticketmaster-
fees/](https://stubcrew.com/the-ugly-truth-about-ticketmaster-fees/) talks
about it more.

EDIT: and the downvotes here is probably evidence that they succeeded

~~~
Someone1234
Agreed, they're one of several "lightning rod" organizations. They exist to
deflect hate, while everyone profits. Same thing with academic textbooks. Book
publishers are lightning rods, allowing collages/departments/professors to
avoid the reputation hit.

If you want to know who is responsible for a bad thing just answer one
question: Who has the power to fix it? For example performers/venues could use
a non-ticketmaster intermediary, and college professors/schools could assign a
non-$300 textbook, but neither do because they gain substantially from the
arrangement (either financially or in terms of free labor in the textbook
example).

So if you "hate" ticketmaster or textbook publishers, you're playing right
into their game and the problem will never be fixed. You have to pressure
actual decision makers, not lightning rods.

~~~
toomuchtodo
You can’t fix people, only incentives.

------
edlebert
I've heard from some large event organizers that EventBrite is taking similar
measures: delaying payouts to event organizers until the event has concluded.
I heard from one organizer that they were told by EventBrite that they were
not going to see a payout until 2021 for their Labor Day 2020 event.

~~~
jariel
If that's true, it could be an excuse to financialise the money. Let it earn
5% while you don't have to pay it out. Or worse, use it for opex in a big ole
ponzi scheme style busines!

------
hnburnsy
According to this, as 'primary', Ticketmaster typically holds the money until
after the show which puts them in a better position than Stubhub...

"Here’s how the money works in concerts: ... Meanwhile, the “primary”
ticketing companies associated with the venues the artist will play sell
tickets over several days of presales (artist password, credit card, Facebook
or Spotify password, venue or radio station password) during which, hopefully,
many of the tickets are sold. Finally, the remaining tickets are released to
the general public sale. With luck the show sold out. With a lot of luck,
demand was so high that dynamic pricing kicked in, and the ticket prices were
moved up continuously over the course of the days tickets were sold. In almost
every case, the primary market charges a fee on every ticket sold. Typically
primary markets don’t pay the artist until the show is played, the money
raised from selling the tickets is held."

[https://www.ticketnews.com/2020/04/opinion-stubhubs-
urgent-p...](https://www.ticketnews.com/2020/04/opinion-stubhubs-urgent-peril-
and-the-industry-response/)

------
lazzlazzlazz
Although Ticketmaster offers a seemingly simple service, thousands of
integrations with venues and the people who create events make them extremely
difficult to unseat.

I don't know of many credible competitors besides Big Neon
([https://www.bigneon.com/](https://www.bigneon.com/)), founded by a former
c-founder of Ticketfly.

~~~
caseysoftware
Years ago, I was working on an idea and interviewed venue owners to understand
what gaps their were. At the time, Ticketmaster gave them the cc processing
equipment for free and took a smaller % in exchange for exclusivity for years
at a time. After hearing that dozens of times at big and small venues, I moved
onto another idea.

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ipython
How can this be legal? They changed the terms and conditions after you agreed
to them and provided you no way to opt out of the change?

~~~
Someone1234
Even if it isn't legal are people really going to assert their rights in
court?

That's one of the major problems with having weak consumer protections in the
US. If this happened in one of several European countries ticketmaster could
be fined, but in the US each citizen needs to sue in small claims or will be
forced into arbitration that may cost more than the claim is worth
(essentially nullifying their rights, or losing money to assert them).

Arguing that your rights have been violated with their customer services is a
waste of time.

~~~
jacobr1
While less efficient than regulatory action, the US does have a mechanism for
this: class-action lawsuits.

~~~
wlesieutre
_> YOU AGREE TO WAIVE ANY RIGHT TO A JURY TRIAL OR TO PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS
ACTION LAWSUIT OR CLASS-WIDE ARBITRATION._

[https://help.ticketmaster.com/s/article/Terms-of-
Use?languag...](https://help.ticketmaster.com/s/article/Terms-of-
Use?language=en_US#section17)

What we need is a law invalidating contracts with blanket requirements to give
up consumer protections and legal recourse against companies

~~~
rhino369
Companies need to be careful with these clauses. Postmates is deep trouble
because thousands of employees actually demanded arbitration, and now
Postmates is trying to get a class action instead of thousands of
arbitrations.

Arbitration aren't the get out of jail card many organizations believe them to
be.

~~~
wahern
It seems that the issue exposed by DoorDash and Postmates is easily resolved
by inserting volume discount language into the contract with the arbitrator. A
competitor to DoorDash's arbitrator has already started making that sales
pitch. It's possible the fees could be discounted for these existing disputes,
too, though perhaps doing so during the pendency of a dispute might be risky--
politically, if not legally. In any event, I wouldn't expect this loophole to
stay open for long. Occasions for such schadenfreude aren't usually repeated.

------
peterburkimsher
I wouldn't be particularly upset if Ticketmaster continue to pay the band as
if they'd actually played the show.

I'd bought 3 concert tickets for shows that got cancelled due to the lockdown,
for a total of a few hundred $. I can listen to the music online, but I know
that musicians make much more money from touring, so that's my way to support
them.

As long as the performers get paid, I don't mind, because half the reason I go
to concerts is just to pay the bands I like. The other half is bragging rights
to tell friends which bands I saw live.

------
meritt
Credit card chargebacks are going to put that company out of business.

~~~
Marsymars
My bank refused, as their policy is to not do chargebacks for postponed
events. (PayPal also denied my dispute claim.)

~~~
Nextgrid
Can you chargeback on the reason that Ticketmaster reneged on their initial
terms instead of the postponed event itself?

~~~
Marsymars
Not sure, I may try again with that reasoning.

------
vernie
The only good thing Ticketmaster ever did was employ Terry A. Davis.

------
rapind
I'm not a Ticketmaster fan from back in the Pearl Jam days, but I think
there's a misunderstanding in a lot of these comments. If you are just the
platform that venues use, and someone asks for a refund, it's pretty heavy for
the platform to be on the hook for the full cost right now (due to a massive
amount of refunds). In the short term it can effect your cashflow (covering
refunds to consumers while you try to collect from the venue), and in the long
terms it could be a huge loss if you're unable to collect from a significant
amount of your venues (money already spent).

In general you probably wouldn't want to hold excessive amounts in reserve
from the venues because it could be a huge negative factor for them (money
needed to setup the event), but right now with Coronavirus it's gotta be
really messing with them.

~~~
sciurus
This is why Eventbrite has stopped issuing advanced payouts to venues. Given
the increased risk, they need to keep the money on hand for potential refunds.
I wonder if Ticketmaster has done something similar.

[https://www.eventbrite.com/blog/advanced-payouts-changes-
rel...](https://www.eventbrite.com/blog/advanced-payouts-changes-related-to-
covid-19/)

~~~
rapind
No doubt. Typically they would hold a reserve based on a risk calculation.
This epidemic would have completely invalidated the old math on how much to
reserve and I suspect has therefore left a lot of platforms in a shitty
position or cash strapped.

------
Jedd
Original article this one cites, published four days ago:

[https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2020/04/10/ticketmaster-
qui...](https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2020/04/10/ticketmaster-quietly-
changes-refund-policy/)

~~~
kraig
The Times covered this on the 8th. The policy didn't change

[https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/arts/music/ticketmaster-r...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/arts/music/ticketmaster-
refunds-coronavirus.html)

------
hnarn
Something tells me this is going to increase the amount of chargebacks from
customer using credit cards, and from my limited understanding of them I don't
see why credit card companies wouldn't accept them, which would damage the
reputation of Ticketmaster.

It wouldn't surprise me if this is immediately illegal under EU law, but even
if it's not, in my country customers shopping with a credit card are under
additional protection since the credit card company is actually the
"responsible party", not the merchant, so they would legally have to pay up.
Smells like a potential lawsuit in that case between Ticketmaster and any
generic credit card company affected by this.

------
whyhow
Should I just do a credit card chargeback for an postponed event? Are there
any drawbacks? I tried to chat with their customer service and it wouldn't let
me because my event wasn't eligible for a refund.

~~~
anonAndOn
Unless you are a nuisance customer that frequently files chargebacks, there
shouldn't be any drawbacks for you. The onus of responsibility lies with the
merchant who must provide the processor with sufficient evidence that your
claim is fraudulent or unjustified. Which, in this case, almost certainly
means you will win the claim and Ticketmaster will lose the funds and be
assessed a chargeback fee for the privilege.

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funfunfunction
Shameless Plug: It’s still a WIP, and obviously this covid stuff has been hard
for us, but my company sellout.io is trying to build a fair alternative that
ultimately gives artists the ability to sell tickets directly to fans.
Ticketmaster’s rein will end soon.

~~~
anonAndOn
You have a compelling offer to Ticketmaster's free money? Those giant stadiums
are likely getting million dollar annual upfront payments for signing
exclusive multi-year ticketing deals. Not even the mighty Pearl Jam (in their
prime, no less) could beat the hated Ticketmaster.[0]

[0][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticketmaster#History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticketmaster#History)

~~~
funfunfunction
Yes, make more money over a longer period of time, create a better experience
for your customers, and be treated well.

Their free money isn’t free, and venues are starting to notice.

------
nickthemagicman
Is Ticketmaster the definition of an anti-competetive monopoly that anti-trust
laws exist to break up?

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techntoke
From what I can tell based on this post, it is up to the event organizers.

------
bane
Ticketmaster is corporate cancer that could probably be 90% replaced by a
couple folks with a webapp.

~~~
no-such-address
Something else to know is that Ticketmaster is happy to list and collect
commissions from 3rd party ticket sales, but they excuse themselves from
"Ticketmaster Fan Support" policies. Caveat emptor.

------
RangerScience
Generally speaking, I think blockchain is not a good answer for most things,
but this is leading me to consider whether it might be an excellent tool for
ticket economics.

Consider: Each ticket is already nearly a contract; making them into smart
contracts seems very straightforward. Tickets do not have the "oracle" /
"reality capture" problem many block chain applications have - tickets are
essentially pure information to start with. Initial ticket sales combined with
an aftermarket very closely resemble ICOs and subsequent coin trading.

AFAICT the big stumbling block is the ticket-coin-to-USD conversion; maybe a
perfect fit for stable coins? Ah - the other big stumbling block is the UX
around ticket _redemption_ ; making sure it's convenient, reliable and not
exploitable. Hmm.

The _interesting_ part IMO is how this could work with spending money from
ticket sales prior to the show; you have proof that you'll make X revenue and
could borrow against it, at some rate that already includes risk factors. If
you have to cancel your show, refunds are "automatic" as per whatever the
smart contract specified, and the risk (borne by the lender) is (is the word?)
actualized?

~~~
formercoder
Let’s apply the “do you need blockchain” test: do we need zero trust
distributed consensus? No? Then no.

~~~
RangerScience
Fair-ish. Issue is that any entity that has free reign to modify the state of
the chain can modify the tickets; such as deciding to no longer give refunds.

AFAIK, there are four entities in shows, with varying levels of trust between
then: fans, venues, performers, and the ticketing company. (I'm considering
ticket redemption are part of "venue"). Some ability to decentrally coordinate
without complete trust seems worth exploring at least as a thought experiment.

I'm not saying this definitely _is_ a valid application of block chain, just
that it looks more like it could be than anything else I've seen.

~~~
formercoder
That’s what we have legal systems for. Even if there was some technical
barrier for modifying contracts, it still doesn’t work. Not sure if there’s a
name for the opposite of the oracle problem but on the output side, but the
theaters can still just refuse to honor the tickets. Again we’re back to it
being all about the actual contract.

Also does every ticket holder run a node? Is that practical? If not, we have
the oracle problem at the other end.

