
Tinder sued for sexual harassment by former co-founder - smartera
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/01/us-tinder-lawsuit-harrassment-idUKKBN0F52JC20140701
======
dbloom
Before we all jump on the "he-said-she-said" bandwagon, keep in mind that IAC
(Tinder's parent company) has confirmed that Mr. Mateen did send harassing
messages to Ms. Wolfe:

"Through that process, it has become clear that Mr. Mateen sent private
messages to Ms. Wolfe containing inappropriate content."
<[http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/06/30/tinder-
sexual-...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/06/30/tinder-sexual-
harassment/11812153/>)

The rest of the allegations are unproven, but the allegation that Mr. Mateen
harassed Ms. Wolfe is, for all intents and purposes, 100% factual. There's no
reason to defend this guy.

~~~
j4kp07
Key word: Private.

Where do you draw the line when you work with and are dating the same person?
The only fault I see here on IAC is hiring people who are dating.

~~~
dbloom
> Key word: Private.

This is a ballpark guess, but probably about 99% of workplace harassment is
done privately.

> Where do you draw the line when you work with and are dating the same
> person? The only fault I see here on IAC is hiring people who are dating.

If a manager has a relationship with a subordinate, the manager should be held
accountable for that, not the subordinate.

~~~
jessaustin
_If a manager has a relationship with a subordinate, the manager should be
held accountable for that, not the subordinate._

That's a great rule for the company, and it would be awesome if it existed at
more places.

------
aqme28
_" Mr. Mateen told Ms. Wolfe that the reason she could no longer hold herself
out as a co-founder was that she was a 24-year-old “girl” with little
experience. Once again he said that holding her out as a co-founder “makes the
company look like a joke” and “devalues the company.” Mr. Mateen tried to
justify the situation by saying “Facebook and Snapchat don’t have girl
founders, it just makes it look like Tinder was some accident.” Further, as
Mr. Rad informed Ms. Wolfe, IAC would not let her be publicly recognized as a
co-founder."_

It's rare to see sexism in tech spelled out so blatantly. If the above is
true, that's absolutely despicable.

~~~
tomp
Don't be silly, that has nothing to do with sexism in tech and everything to
do with sexism of a single idiot. I, for one, would be really happy to have a
girl co-founder (I would be equally happy to have a guy co-founder, though).

~~~
muglug
That's great for you. But (if he wrote it) he didn't write that in a bubble.
He wrote it in an environment where an overwhelming proportion of startups are
founded by young white men. Put another way, a man in a rural southern town
calling Obama the n-word is just a solitary act, but one cannot discount the
racism of that man's peers in promoting the use of that word to describe black
people.

------
ctide
Posts like these remind me how many socially maladjusted misogynists exist on
this site just waiting for stuff like this so they can throw their 2c in.

It says right there that IAC confirmed he sent the messages. The rest of this
honestly does not matter at all, it's just kindling on the fire. Those alone
are enough to prove that he sexually harassed her. If you're honestly trying
to argue that we 'don't know all that facts' and that 'we shouldn't jump to
conclusions' then I feel bad for any women who have to interact with you
because you're probably a fucking scumbag too.

~~~
xienze
> It says right there that IAC confirmed he sent the messages.

I would call it CYA. All they submitted to the court was screen captures of
iMessage, so presumably the company saw the same thing. They felt compelled to
comment on that, that's fine. But to me, sorry, screen captures of iMessage
aren't good enough. That can easily be faked with you and a friend sending
over-the-top messages to each other. I would want to see phone company
records.

~~~
xienze
Just curious, does anyone want to argue the point about the texts being
relatively flimsy evidence or just downvote? I guess that's what passes for
debate these days.

~~~
yid
Why would a large holding company like IAC do something as stupid as fake
messages in a legal deposition? What you're suggesting is highly unlikely, and
would have absolutely no potential payoff for IAC. Your comment comes off as
completely off-topic.

~~~
xienze
Where did I say the company faked the messages? They were clearly sent to her.

------
nelsonenzo
That was just plain straight up sexual harasment, you can ask any HR person.
It really doesn't matter what she did, once a person asks you to stop
harassing them, they really really really should stop, legally speaking. I was
going to get the Tinder app myself, but forget it. I can't support assholes
like this who give guys and tech a bad name. I hope she, or someone else,
mounts a marketing campaign asking females to delete their accounts from the
app. Let it become another tired wasteland of a cockfest, and then they will
know how important a female founder can actually be. p.s. -no, i'm not a
female, i just get pissed because tech guys constantly have a bad name and i
constantly need to defend the fact that we are not all assholes.

------
bradleyjg
One not completely obvious lesson that can be drawn from this, has to do with
preventing cases like this from being filed in the first place. If you look at
the last exhibit in the complaint, even at the very end the CEO (Rad) could
have negotiated what sounds like a very modest settlement if he had been
willing to be a little understanding and flexible. Instead he went into some
legalistic lock down mode and refused to consider even a token severance.

Now perhaps before signing anything Ms. Wolfe would have consulted a lawyer
and so there would have been a lawsuit anyway. And as a disinterested
observer, I would kind of hope so. But the pragmatic lesson for people who
might be in a similar situation is that a little humility and understanding
can go a long way. I'm reminded of the study finding that doctors who
apologized for medical mistakes ended up being sued less often for medical
malpractice.

Of course, by far the best thing is to avoid such situations altogether!

~~~
danielweber
Even if she got a lawyer, that doesn't mean there would be no settlement. Her
lawyer would highlight the stuff on page 6 and 7, in which corporate policy
was apparently that having a "girl" as cofounder devalues the company, and ask
for more money. And, if they were smart, they would have agreed. Insurance
might have even covered it.

It's not fool-proof; sometimes people are treated so awfully that they want
the feeling of justice from a trial. As you say, best to avoid these
situations altogether.

------
_delirium
The complaint is here, fwiw: [http://www.rezlaw.com/News-
Events/06-30-14_Complaint_with_Ex...](http://www.rezlaw.com/News-
Events/06-30-14_Complaint_with_Exhibits-1.pdf)

~~~
spaldingwell
Some pretty bad stuff that Buzzfeed found in the complaint:
[http://www.buzzfeed.com/sapna/tinder-sued-for-sexual-
harassm...](http://www.buzzfeed.com/sapna/tinder-sued-for-sexual-harassment)

~~~
raverbashing
Crap, that's really over the top

------
vachi
IDK how many of you have read the texts, [http://www.rezlaw.com/News-
Events/06-30-14_Complaint_with_Ex...](http://www.rezlaw.com/News-
Events/06-30-14_Complaint_with_Exhibits-1.pdf) They are incredibly sad, The
fact that individuals who wrote them can call themselves executives of any
position is baffling, From the side of Ms. Wolfe, i do have to hey texts are
very calm, well the screens chosen do depict that, however the texts of Mateen
and Sean, are bizarrely foul, if they are true as there is no doubt that the
moment that they are not, Ms Wolfe should shit on these fuck faces

------
davidw
Previous go round on HN:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7969301](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7969301)

------
JoachimSchipper
Tinder is "casual sex: the app". Sexism is a very real and very serious
problem in the IT world. But Tinder is not the most boringly neutral tech
company you can find, especially in this particular sense.

It's good to keep the special-ness of this case in mind. For instance, sexism
usually doesn't get _this_ bad. On the other hand, an atmosphere that isn't as
hostile as this can still be, well, bad.

------
kaonashi
> "We unequivocally condemn these messages," the spokesman said, "but believe
> that Ms. Wolfe’s allegations with respect to Tinder and its management are
> unfounded.”

Uh-huh.

------
teamhappy
I'm shocked, shocked ...

------
wellboy
Wow, if this is true, what a horrible person. All the efforts to get more
women interested in tech, trampled. Hopefully, people will learn from this how
to not do it and that still in 2014 misogynism is completely present and will
get swept under the carpet.

~~~
j4kp07
Really? One bad breakup between two C-types and "ALL" of the efforts to bring
MORE women into tech is trampled?

IMHO...this has nothing to do with Tinder or the parent company. Because,
guess what happens when you decide to enter the dating world? You may get
burned, called bad names or become generally upset.

So don't shit where you eat and then blame the cafeteria for the bad taste
left in your mouth.

~~~
Loughla
No, but that's why many cafeterias have a 'no shitting where you eat' policy
that results in immediate termination.

------
randyrand
Is this really an entire suite about name-calling? How old are we? Calling
people names should be protected by free speech.

These sexual harassment cases do more to hurt women than help them IMHO. It
reinforces the viewpoint that women are seen as a liability.

~~~
vajorie
> These sexual harassment cases do more to hurt women than help them IMHO. It
> reinforces the viewpoint that women are seen as a liability.

Let me translate what you just said: if someone harasses _you_ at your
workplace and elsewhere, and as such causes harm to you, and do so also by
deploying systematically dissipated stereotypes (yes, they are social
weapons), you shall not press charges, because if you do, you would be a petty
little girl who is causing harm to your company.

...

~~~
randyrand
That is not what I said at all....

If someone harms me I'm obviously going to press charges. The issue is whether
those charges should actually have legal basis.

------
snvzz
These private message things are appropriate until (possibly years after
breaking up) it's convenient for one party to say otherwise.

This bullshit should be put to an end.

------
instaheat
Sounds like a typical bad breakup to me, these two people just happen to work
in high profile positions in the Tech world.

Girl finds new man, guy gets angry and lashes out by calling her a
whore.(Unfounded) Nothing to see here folks!

Unless you're into this sort of drama...

~~~
dbloom
So why did the woman get fired? Why didn't the man get fired? Does this seem
fair to you?

~~~
klipt
Probably because in this case the man was the boss, and bosses tend to fire
underlings more than the other way around.

And this is why dating across workplace power differentials is a bad idea: it
makes a bad breakup exponentially worse.

------
tomp
Let's just keep in mind that these are merely _allegations_ , and that no-one
was convicted, and no investigation has completed so far. I hope the media and
the courts don't ruin another person's life based on allegations that turn out
to be false, as in the case of Julian Assange and the recent Oxford Union
scandal.

Also, keep in mind that it is in Tinder's interest to put all blame to the
employee that sent the allegedly inappropriate private messages. We have no
idea what the true nature of their relationship was, how it evolved, and if it
ended on a bad note.

I'm not saying that he is innocent, but he should be treated as such until he
is proved guilty.

~~~
ikt
> "the courts don't ruin another person's life based on allegations that turn
> out to be false, as in the case of Julian Assange"

I think your bias might be leaking but the case against Assange was never
shown to be false. As far as I'm aware he's still in an embassy avoiding his
trial.

~~~
tomp
Exactly. They weren't shown to be true, either. He is in the embassy waiting
to be _charged_ , not avoiding trial.

~~~
dllthomas
The point is that it's not a very good example of "allegations that turn out
to be false" \- they haven't turned out at all.

------
DanielBMarkham
I don't want to comment on this particular story. These are terrible
allegations and they deserve their day in court. There's also a drive-by,
rubber-necking, gossip-mongering aspect to these stories. Hate to contribute
to it.

I would like to comment on all the heat sexual discrimination cases are
getting in the public eye lately. (I have no idea if the number of actual
cases are increasing, decreasing, or staying the same). Big, public, messy
scandals are no good for anybody, and they're not a new phenomenon.

We have various professions where lawsuits of a sexual nature can be
especially damaging. A couple that come to mind right off the bat are
politicians and religious leaders.

I've heard that in many cases, the threat of an unfounded lawsuit is so great,
and it could cause so much harm, that folks are sticking with same-sex
environments where there are always 3 or more people in a room together.

I wonder if we'll see such adaptations in the startup industry. It could be
that the public outcry after so many of these things, to include more women,
might actually drive out more highly segregated work environments. It bears
watching.

~~~
tptacek
I don't know about politicians and religious leaders, but somehow or another
law firms, accounting firms, management consultants and medical practices seem
to manage without needing rules about having "always 3 or more people in a
room together".

Look at the numbers. There are still pay equity issues all over the place, but
in terms of participation, every other white collar industry puts technology
to shame. 66% of staff attorneys are women. ~40% of biglaw partners are. And
in law, 40% is a _problem_. In technology, it would be a dream.

~~~
easytiger
And yet technology implementation is the single most accessible industry I can
think of, with most of those, esp in Europe, who succeed at it, being largely
autodidacts. Everything you need to learn is there and free and you can do it
in your bedroom.

The industries you cite are largely people businesses with restricted
knowledge paths and require intense experience and with outcome of individual
projects being much more vague and often predetermined by the inputs they
received when taking on the project.

> In technology, it would be a dream.

My feeling is that females in tech are largely suffering from the outcome of
some inherent risk analysis that we experience. Girls are more likely to take
definite paths with known success ratios.

This brings the question, why don't we have significant outliers in female in
tech given the low barrier to entry at the root level.

~~~
andylei
> why don't we have significant outliers in female in tech given the low
> barrier to entry at the root level.

cause of shit like this at tinder

------
sergiotapia
He-said-she-said, bleh. And these things come to light after a breakup between
the two of them. Seriously, who would trust what either of them say? It'll get
settled in court no doubt, but let's not jump on the bandwagon here.

Edit: [http://www.buzzfeed.com/sapna/tinder-sued-for-sexual-
harassm...](http://www.buzzfeed.com/sapna/tinder-sued-for-sexual-harassment)
\- If this is real the guy is a real piece of shit. -This- is the type of guy
who should be removed from his company. If the guy in Github was forced to
leave this is probably a sure-thing.

~~~
jrockway
In the other article, there was a link to the actual court filing with
exhibits. The cofounder was definitely harassing her, unless the text messages
were faked or grossly out of context.

You could say that she egged him on and was not exactly the pinnacle of
maturity, but harassment is illegal and egging someone on is not.

~~~
renaudg
"Harassment is illegal and egging someone on is not."

Isn't that the root issue ?

~~~
jrockway
The root issue is wanting revenge on someone for breaking up with you.

