
It’s Tough Being Over 40 in Silicon Valley - mudil
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-08/silicon-valley-s-job-hungry-say-we-re-not-to-old-for-this
======
albertop
I find it fascinating that when there is a discussion about age
discrimination, most commenters have "advice" for the old farts how to stay
current, learn current hip tech, be willing to work longer hours etc. However,
we we talk about women in computing, it is always sexism and the discussion is
about how the corporations need to change to attract more women. Pretty
asymmetrical, don't you think?

~~~
maerF0x0
Bang on. Discrimination by sex is not socially acceptable. Discrimination by
other protected factors is sometimes socially ok. (not that it should be).

Edit to add: At a former company i became a bit of an outsider when I noted at
a diversity meeting that diversity meant more than the big 3 that tend to get
pushed around Gender, Orientation, Race. I noted that our office was young,
had no parents, no ex convicts, no disabled people, few people who had not
attended a top university (or no university for that matter) and few or no
religious people... people basically said "Why you against <women,
colored...>?" as though it was some kind of zero sum fight.

~~~
mwfunk
From what you described, to an observer it would have sounded like you were
arguing with them against the whole concept of protected classes, rather than
pointing out that they should add ageism (etc.) to the list of things to be
wary of.

Usually when people point out hypocrisy, people assume that they're making an
indirect argument against the thing they're being accused of being hypocrites
about. If you say something like "you seem to really worry about
discrimination based on gender, but are ignoring ageism", that doesn't sound
like you're trying to enlighten them about ageism. Rather, that sounds like
you're trying to illustrate that the whole concept of protected classes is BS.

Accusations of hypocrisy are easily misinterpreted because so many people use
them as a terrible form of argumentation. For example, consider all the people
who get mad about other people complaining about intolerance, and the best
they can come up with is "but you're just intolerant against intolerance!". As
if pointing out hypocrisy invalidates whatever else someone is saying. It's
the dumbest possible approach to debating an issue, but 99.9% of the time when
I hear someone accuse someone else of hypocrisy, that's what they're doing.
That may not have been what you were doing in that situation, but I could
totally see how everyone might have misinterpreted you.

~~~
gaius
_Usually when people point out hypocrisy_

What about sophistry?

------
rb808
I come from a family with a few generations of engineers of all types.

Mechanical/chemical/electrical engineers have a similar problem that 30 years
experience isn't much more useful than 10, wages tend to top out early and
you're vulnerable to being laid off and never hired again in your 40s/50s. One
advantage over software is that the skills change perhaps less frequently but
that is offset by lower overall demand.

While you're in your 20's think about what you're going to do at the end of
your 20 year window. Are you moving up to management? Have extensive business
knowledge to add to tech skills? Have a second career planned? Or saved enough
money to retire or semi-retire? Of course you can actively stay up to date
with latest technology but that is much tougher than it sounds. You need to
have thought a lot about this before you hit 40.

For all the young guys out there. Don't think it wont happen to you. If you
just follow day by day one day you'll wake up with a big mortgage, a couple of
expensive kids, maybe a divorce and a bunch of recruiters that never return
your phone calls. You need to avoid that place.

~~~
dba7dba
So true. The question is, how do you avoid that place. Only so many can become
managers. Only so many can start own business and keep it running.

~~~
daxfohl
So much of it is contacts. _I 'm_ in that place now.

In my 20's and early 30's every job I got was through contacts.

Since then I've been working solo projects at small companies for a number of
years. Fun work, but suddenly it's dried up. I don't have any good recent
contacts in the tech sector. So I'm competing with 22 year olds, with little
to back me up.

So don't do that. Try to keep in touch with former colleagues, and try to be
widely-known in your company for doing good work and being easy to work with.

~~~
Bartweiss
The line that stood out most in that article was the woman saying "Every job
I've had I got through my contacts, but they're all gone now". It had never
occurred to me, but it's obviously a _huge_ problem for older job seekers.

If you're 33, you might get a job using a recommendation from someone who
managed you a decade ago. If you're 53, that same person retired years ago and
doesn't have any pull to offer. And someone who worked for you 10 years ago
can't recommend you easily, because it's hard to "recommend up" to a position
above your own.

It's a subtle sort of thing, it's not direct ageism but it's obviously a big
hurdle for an older worker.

~~~
daxfohl
I think a few corollaries to that are:

Stick with big companies. Yes by working at a small co you gain experience
picking tech stacks, working on all areas of software, etc. But the ceiling is
lower at small companies (only the very hottest couple startups each year
notwithstanding). And the experience you gain there (mostly writing simple
CRUD apps in various languages) isn't so applicable to larger companies where
performance and scalability are the main things they want. So when you hit the
glass ceiling of the "small co" sector, you're essentially starting all over
when you move to the "big co" sector. That's where I am and it's almost like a
career change.

Compare this to a career path at a large co, where you move into senior
engineering and the skills you gain are immediately useful when you apply to
other large companies. You get free networking and visibility at big companies
too, an underestimated fringe benefit.

Also, pick your battles wisely when doing the "keep current on technology"
thing. Avoid cute stuff that doesn't have a ton of use outside a very narrow
segment (e.g. Haskell, logic programming, blockchain, marginally CUDA),
_unless_ you really want to devote your career to it. Also avoid overly-trendy
stuff that will be obsolete in five years (JS frameworks, MongoDB). Stick with
things that solve real problems that real companies have. To that end, search
job boards and see what other large companies are hiring for.

~~~
Bartweiss
This all looks like really good advice.

I'm doing the small(er) company thing, and I don't regret it, but I've slowly
shifted to larger groups and I definitely feel the difference. Getting
exposure to lots of different things is good, but at a certain point being in
charge of maintaining the website while you're also building an actual product
is just a distraction.

The "current tech" thing is obviously a constant battle for everyone, and it's
an important one. Narrow tools can be trouble, flash-in-the-pan frameworks are
ugly, and even things like Go can be chancy if you master something valuable
but scarcely employed. At the very least, it's obvious to me even early in my
career that I need to maintain a couple of mainstream, in-demand skills no
matter what I specialize in.

~~~
daxfohl
Specializing, I think, is a good thing. I'd long been beholden to the belief
that "broken comb" ([https://spin.atomicobject.com/2013/06/27/broken-comb-
people/](https://spin.atomicobject.com/2013/06/27/broken-comb-people/)) could
lead to a fulfilling career path, but I no longer believe this is the case. If
you're middling at a bunch of things then you'll never be hired to greater
than a middling position.

The only advantage of broken comb is that you potentially have _lots_ of
middling positions you can apply to. But even for those, you may be rejected
as "overqualified" because you know so much _other_ stuff. Besides, who wants
to send _lots_ of resumes and do _lots_ of interviews in the pursuit of a
middling job? Especially when you know you're way better than the people that
you're competing against and losing to.

So, don't fan too far out. Find a concentration that's reasonably mainstream
for the foreseeable future and expand your skillset to supplement that. Maybe
not as renaissance-man as the typical above-average programmer would hope for,
but likely the best career path.

------
JeremyMorgan
I don't know about the Silicon Valley, but I'm in the Silicon Forest
(Hillsboro/Portland Oregon) and this market seems to be very merit driven. You
can be 80 years old and get a job if you can do work. Maybe you can't get a
job at fart.IO building an API for some craft beer BS but at many mid to large
companies 40 is still an average.

The last 4-5 companies I've been at value bullet points over anything else
(for what that's worth). If you're 40+ and coming in showing off your PHP
skills, JQuery or WinForms experience you'll get dumped, but the same goes for
the 23 year old with that skill set.

My advice is always the same for developers my age: Keep with the times! If
you aren't passionate enough about this work to continue learning and
advancing on your own time get out. Go do something slower paced. Don't expect
the industry to change.

~~~
arenaninja
Is the potshot on jQuery and PHP really necessary? I know enough people where
I live making six figures (low COL city) with PHP, SQL and jQuery that I don't
think they're ready to sunset.

~~~
gburt
This unfortunate obsession with new and shiny in the Valley is why we have to
learn lessons like the benefits of relational databases over and over. Most of
the new stuff isn't improved, it is simply different.

~~~
exstudent2
Relational dbs sure, but there are legitimate scale reasons to use a
distributed key value store (for instance). There is no reason to be stuck
with PHP today though. It's a very backward language when you compare to
something with a modern type system/features (e.g. Go, Rust, Clojure, Java 8+,
Scala...). Devs need to have a passion for learning technology. Not because
it's the shiny new thing but because the new tech often _does_ offer benefit.

~~~
mywittyname
Often times you have no control over the technology stack you use because
other factors drive your choices. I'm stuck developing in PHP because the tool
we are using is written in PHP.

~~~
exstudent2
You often have to learn this stuff outside of your regular job. Once you know
another stack then you can find another job using it. That's how you exert
control over your career. Tying yourself to one company (or stack) is a slow
death sentence.

EDIT: to those downvoting this... Do you disagree with me (i.e. you think it's
a good career decision to stick with a single tech stack) or do you agree but
dislike that it has to be this way? Genuinely curious because I didn't think
what I said was controversial at all, just industry observation/common sense.

~~~
arenaninja
I live and work outside the valley, and I know python and Java, dabbled in
scala, rust and lately C# -- no one out here will give me a job on any of
those languages because I have no professional experience with them, and some
of them no one here is using yet

------
anexprogrammer
It’s Tough Being Over 40 in tech, anywhere.

I understand only some of why ageism is more rife in tech than other fields.
But even in young app companies, with young founders, some experience of
software engineering or complementary fields gained through experience can be
useful.

Personally I prefer a relatively young environment - I don't like large
company formality and I enjoy the atmosphere of startups and app companies.
But I have increasingly few contacts in the right places for an in...

It's not like we're all "old" like our parents, grandparents were from 45
onwards, or that we're all increasingly irrelevant mainframe COBOL
programmers. We aren't all set in our ways like was more common in previous
generations - but we're not in a job for life so that's expected, surely.
We're not expecting to be dead at 70 either. I hope I haven't "grown up" even
then!

~~~
0xdeadbeefbabe
> It’s Tough Being Over 40 in tech, anywhere.

I think it was more tech in 70s when they wore lab coats and did new things.
Now it's more of a popularity thing or a way to extract gold.

------
oxryly1
Is this perhaps because older workers gravitate towards sane hours? Maybe
because they develop interests, lives, families, etc outside of work that they
commit to (moreso than most 20-somethings)?

As a side note: I'm over 40 now, but I do recall being 27 and interviewing
someone in their early 40s who was qualified and enthusiastic. I passed on
them in part because I felt guilty hiring them; to work on my team the person
would have to move their family to a new city, and I didn't want the karma of
bringing that many people into a world where the team/project I was on was
staffed and led by 20-somethings -- and therefore chaotic and unlikely to
survive long in any particular form.

~~~
throw_away_777
What you did was definitely illegal and immoral. It is not your decision to
make on how someone should live their life.

~~~
oxryly1
Probably, but I was in over my head and the team evaporated within months.
With hindsight I would have done many things differently, and my approach to
interviewing that person is just one of many.

~~~
jackhack
I think it was brave to say, and a valuable addition to the discussion.

------
kragen
"Michael Peredo, a 55-year-old auto engineer dismissed from Mercedes-Benz in
February 2015, says he had trouble giving up his bow ties for T-shirts, as
some he met at ProMatch suggested. ‘I feel like myself wearing them,’ he
says."

Yeah, you're going to have a really hard time getting a programming job in
Silicon Valley if you show up in looking like a security guard in a tie, let
alone looking like a waiter in a bowtie. It's the same story as showing up for
an interview for an enterprise sales job in ripped jeans and a T-shirt — it
undermines your credibility. It shouldn't — our meritocratic hacker values
place no value on surface appearances, and we fail them when we are influenced
by what people are wearing or their gender or skin color or age — but it
absolutely does. Raymond Chen can get away with wearing a suit and tie all the
time, but you probably can't.

The good news is that Peredo got a job immediately when he stopped wearing the
bowtie to interviews. It's not gonna be as easy if you're black.

~~~
michael_h
The number of bowties I've seen recently has increased dramatically...among
younger workers. This is in a research focused environment, so there's a
little more fashion leeway.

Things are cyclical. For better or worse, I think we're on the rising edge of
a rebellion against the nerd-frump affect.

Thank you Matt Smith!

~~~
wott
I hope the ruff comes back!

~~~
dredmorbius
Powdered wigs and codpieces.

------
DonCarlitos
Try being over 60 & gettind cred. "How could you possibly understand bleeding
edge tech and emerging trends?" Well...I've lived there for four decades, you?

~~~
thenewwazoo
Someone here recently pointed out the irony of the term "digital native",
which you illustrate nicely. The people who aren't "digital natives" built
everything the "digital natives" purport to understand so deeply.

Which knowledge is deeper? That of the user, or that of the builder?

~~~
chillingeffect
Speaking for myself, there are two trends with aging. One positive, one
negative.

1\. (positive) Big picture wisdom increases. You learn when to call in help,
when to use a library instead of rolling it yourself, when to stop hacking,
retreat, document, how long to architect, etc. I get a little frustrated with
younger people who e.g. over-optimize some aspect of a system before making
the whole thing work adequately. I am waaaaaaay more organized and consistent
than the young person who hasn't inherited enough code or faced the spectre of
their own code when they forgot how it works.

2\. (negative) I often forget how easy some formerly difficult tasks have
become. Just take a library like three.js.... or building a compiler from
source or using a library instead of writing an XML parser or SDL and so on.
To stay on top, I often have to check in with others to see what surprising
tools "young people" :) have made. This is critical because it affects
estimates of time and resources needed to meet a goal.

So it's excellent to be around for a long time, IMO, as long as you are good
at forgetting/unlearning some obsolete ways of doing things.

------
vvanders
The best explanation I've seen for this is when you're a young engineer with
little experience showing knowledge of a framework or technique is a huge
plus. For someone with a ton of experience _not_ knowing something is shown as
a minus.

For interview processes trying to avoid false positives a negative mark will
hurt you much more in the final sum.

So the bar is set differently for two candidates applying to the same
position. I'm sure it doesn't account for every aspect but certainly seemed to
explain some of it.

~~~
rwmj
Ignoring the latest fad is a plus in my books. Of course this only works if
you know the fundamentals.

~~~
emodendroket
Gee, you don't think rewriting everything every couple of months is a wise use
of money?

------
sjclemmy
It might be like that in SV. It doesn't feel that way where I live. I'm 44 and
do Front end dev, which I taught myself after being a project manager /
Business analyst for a good 10 years. I do live in what might be considered a
backwater in England, but I get enquirers almost daily about my availability.

Also - I read about Shel Kaphan the other day - employee #1 at Amazon - he
must have been in his 40s when he started there if he was studying in 1975.
Obviously his age didn't deter Jeff Bezos.

I've worked in places where older employees become irrelevant to the business
because they get stuck in their ways and don't want to / can't change. If
you're not prepared to re-skill, or you think your job is safe - you're in for
a rough time if someone else controls your destiny. That's not to say people
don't get badly treated by organisations - they do, and that's wrong. But
still, working life is a struggle and a balancing act.

------
bruxis
One thing that I'm really surprised about is the lack of empathy that
companies and teams feel with this.

I've been hiring engineers for a few years now and from _my_ perspective, age
has never been a consideration. That does not mean other interviewers did not
include age bias which influenced the overall decision.

I'm around 30 currently, and I'm terrified as I get older that this will
happen to me and my friends. Saving for retirement is, intentionally, a very
long process -- and very arduous if you're trying to save to retire in the Bay
area.

What are people that push such discrimination thinking about their own
futures?

~~~
munchbunny
They're probably not being intentionally ageist. My guess is that the
differences in sense of humor, lack of desire to hang out with coworkers, and
other social differences just make them seem like unappealing "culture" fits.

And it's true, if you're just hiring for people you can also hang out with and
you're in your 20's, of course you won't like them.

At some point you get the revelation that people have their own lives and
there is a social relationship along the lines of "we work together but I'm
otherwise not interested in you," and that this is actually a very common and
viable type of social relationship.

~~~
user5994461
Add the salary on top of that.

Higher experience commands higher salary and no company has an unlimited cash
flow, even among the ones who are truly interested in the rare experiences and
skills.

On the other hand, the world is full of companies and industries who are
basing their business on cheap employees and lowballing.

------
user5994461
Don't believe the lies a single second.

The truth is, it is NOT tough being 3X-4X in silicon valley.

What is tough is accepting to put up with startups about to fail, long hours,
mediocre pay, little benefits and immature coworkers. That does limit the size
of the job market.

That issue is faced by everyone, independently of their age. The youngers
selves just happen to have lower standards in average.

------
ThomPete
Here is the thing though. A person who is 40 knows and understands a lot of
the problems of their industry and they are often much more experienced at
making sure they don't waste their time.

This is why I would propose that the strongest cocktail is pairing young
people with older people.

[https://medium.com/black-n-white/the-problem-with-
problems-4...](https://medium.com/black-n-white/the-problem-with-
problems-47ee63bb3511#.jcbr526ax)

------
gtrubetskoy
My observation (as someone over 40) is that some of us who started early on in
the trade decided to throw in the towel and declared themselves "management",
and (most importantly) stopped being hands-on. And it's _these_ people who are
most at risk of ending up behind. Those of us who kept on programming,
networking, never quit learning and stayed current with all the latest stuff
are actually extremely sought after and valuable - experience is _hugely_
important, critical, even, especially where scale and reliability matter.

------
DiffEq
I think it may be tough if you have not continued to improve yourself. There
are some maxims to always follow to prevent yourself from "expiring": Keep
learning. 1\. Always learn some new hard thing; a language, more math, or go
deeper into your subject (programming languages, etc.) 2\. Stay in top
physical shape and learn some new physical skill.

Learning should be multifaceted and a lifestyle; intellectual and physical. If
you think you can just coast after college then you will be passed up.

------
kchoudhu
Take the cash and run. Do you really want to be herding man-children when you
are 40?

------
gentleteblor
I think it's extremely important for folks over 40 to track their
accomplishments.

Their resumes are longer, their skills can be older, some of the companies
they've worked for might not even exist anymore. It's even more important to
be able to search/narrow down/focus your decades of experience/accomplishments
to those that matter in this new ageist landscape.

And the truth is, you've probably done whatever SV recruiters/managers say you
require. You've been the self-starting, chaos riding, new tech stack
conquering machine. You've lived at the cutting edge. It's just not on your
resume, and you don't bring it up in interviews because you haven't been that
person in a while and all your (maybe) recent job search experience is in
displaying the breadth and length of your career.

It's tough.

------
dbg31415
I feel like a lot of discrimination in tech comes from a dislike of
experience.

Many project teams and companies instantly dislike the person who says, "This
can't be done," or, "We need more information before we can give an estimate."

If you're 40, there's a good chance you know more than most people in the room
about what's going to work and what isn't.

But what you have to remember is that the only reason you have this knowledge
is from fucking up and working all-nighters and missing deadlines in the past.

So, even if it means more work for you, you have to be willing to let the
people who are driving the ship make mistakes. Nobody wants their parent
around, or to feel second guessed.

Tech is always about finding new ways to do things, trying new ideas. Don't
turn into the nay-sayer.

~~~
bphogan
This is exactly it. It's a lesson I learned recently. Just chill out. Don't
try to "save" people from making mistakes.

------
ErikAugust
I think the most unconscious or perhaps completely conscious bias that I'm not
sure I'm seeing mentioned with age is salary requirements and other various
forms of compensation.

Older people are thought to have mortgages, families, etc. They often cost
more money, and work less hours.

That's simply never thought as attractive to employers who want more work
hours for less money.

Disclaimer: Not saying this is right - but I think that's a big part of it.

~~~
m4x
This is true of all industries, however. Having a family and owning a home are
not attributes found exclusively amongst tech workers.

------
muzster
Some 'Official' Stats

Source:
[http://www.bls.gov/cps/demographics.htm](http://www.bls.gov/cps/demographics.htm)

I would put some relevant comment on the meaning of these figures but I have
to put my kids to bed, sort out their school packed lunch, get scolded by my
wife - all before I work on my side projects.

I'll leave it to the youngsters.

~~~
muzster
Median Age / Profession

42.1 Computer systems analysts

44.7 Information security analysts

43.1 Computer programmers

39.7 Software developers, applications and systems software

35.9 Web developers

40.5 Computer support specialists

47.0 Database administrators

41.2 Network and computer systems administrators

41.6 Computer network architects

41.2 Computer occupations, all other

~~~
muzster
Hint: look at the outliers

------
rdiddly
Older people, please: Never "play young" for a paycheck. It's sad as shit. If
you're not a professional clown and don't want to be seen as a figurative
clown, why would you ever act like someone who is less than yourself? (Along
the same line men, don't take Viagra, it's pathetic. Just enjoy and cherish
the fact that for once you're not obsessed with mating, and can finally get
some damn work done instead of chasing every nice ass. Another perspective
young dudes won't understand.)

Turn to crime before you get a FACELIFT (are you shitting me) for any job.
Heck, older people make great criminals - they've accumulated cunning and
horse-sense which are great for gulling young people out of their money. And
young people have many things that can be used against them: enthusiasm,
idealism, energy and a tendency to waste it (also see Aikido), insecurities,
inexperience, a preoccupation with mating (see above). Best of all, young
people's tendency to think they're smarter than they really are, means that
you can be the superior adversary while your adversary thinks the opposite
(see Aikido again, and Sun Tzu).

Young people if this kind of talk scares you, think about hiring some of these
people! ;)

~~~
nickpsecurity
That was a really funny way to tell older people to go into management,
marketing, politics, or VC firms. They can use all the advantages you describe
for large sums of money without their actions being crimes.

------
BlackjackCF
I think age bias is a thing, but the best software engineers (and the most
productive) I've worked with are over 40. They're sharp, kept up with current
technology, and they actually can build things in a way that's adaptable.

------
beatpanda
We should all be embarrassed by the working conditions and biases in our
industry. It doesn't have to be this way, but we all keep playing along.

~~~
meddlepal
The rampant ageism in the industry is a real problem but everyone is focused
on gender equality in tech right now. I really think both issues need serious
attention.

~~~
FilterSweep
The chief problem with ageism is that it cuts across both genders - young
people, looking for that first job post-graduation, are willing to take less
money.

~~~
thenewwazoo
Interestingly, the next-order analysis of the problem you're discussing is
called "intersectionality"; i.e. what are the systemic implications of being
>40 _and_ female? Given the relative demographic sizes, one can argue for or
against attacking one or another problem (ageism or sexism) first, given the
expected improvement to the population at large (essentially, the utilitarian
argument).

As much as techie types like to deride and dismiss sociological analytical
techniques as being pseudoscience, there is a lot to be learned from them when
attempting to intelligently discuss the (our) job market.

------
erjjones
Come to the Midwest ... I really enjoy the perspective of the older
developers.

Perspective is what the Valley needs if ageism is an issue, because we aren't
getting younger.

------
tropo
So here I am, at a place willing to hire these people, but actually getting
them hired isn't so easy.

First of all, yes, you do need to leave Silicon Valley. People seem strangely
afraid to leave. There is a world out here! Getting houses for 10% of what
they cost is Silicon Valley has got to be worth something, no?

Second of all, finding them is tough. We can show up at a large college and
meet lots of people, nearly all young. There is no similar place where we can
show up to recruit older people.

Older people have the skills we need, particularly assembly language. We have
to sort through lots and lots of young people to find a few with potential,
but at least "lots and lots" is available at many colleges.

------
rdiddly
"Young people are just smarter."

Ha! I love it! What ZUCKERGUY means is that young people are smart in a way
that he, another young person, can recognize and understand.

Whereas older people are smart in ways that young people don't yet recognize
or understand. It's just one great big Dunning-Krueger Effect. Young people
don't know how much they don't know.

Fortunately for them, old people are a totally different species from young
people. It's not like young people turn into old people or anything. Can you
imagine the horrors? Like what if life were one big continuum where you start
out young and slowly turn old? Scary stuff!

------
tn13
Well it might change a lot as suddenly number of coders in their 40s goes up.

~~~
jganetsk
Do you have any data demonstrating this will happen?

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Is the software development industry not bigger than it was twenty years ago?
Developers still age. Ergo, as development as an industry grows, at a delayed
rate, the number of aging developers will also grow.

~~~
jganetsk
That assumes they remain being developers as they age.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
I suppose, but the cost of a career switch to a job that is similar or greater
in pay is quite high. What do you think is the likely place a developer who is
25 today will be in 20 years?

------
daxfohl
What is tenure/turnover like in the big SV companies? I see salaries rise
pretty quickly and the ceiling is fairly high, but does this simply mean
you're likely to rise to a certain level and then get replaced?

For 40-year-old techies looking for a company to round out their career, are
the SV biggies the wrong place to look?

------
temuze
"Peredo spent 18 months looking for work before he took off his bow tie and
landed a job."

It's hard to identify causality here. You _could_ say that there's a
correlation with casual attire and job offers in the valley. Alternatively, he
got better in those 18 months...

------
AndrewKemendo
IMO it's because the majority of the companies getting funding in SV don't
need DEEP expertise in a specific technical area. All of the companies
mentioned in the article are mainly doing fairly "easy" tech around either
well understood or new frameworks with low barriers to entry.

If you look at the age composition of companies that are working in Deep
Learning, Computer Vision, Hardware they are significantly older than others -
it's because you typically need a PhD or equivalent time working on the
problems to actually build new stuff.

Until SV starts funding - enmasse - hard tech, which needs more experienced
workers, I don't think you'll see much change there.

------
lunchboxsushi
Being a young software developer it feel a bit out of place to be getting a
salary less than someone who has been in the field for say 15 years. My only
reason for this is that technology does change really fast, and things should
be looked at if the job can be complete. Yes there are a bunch of 'Younglings'
that just use the newest freshest flavor framework or scripting language (that
can be a nightmare to work with) but if a programmer can make something
extensible and maintainable does the experience really need to offset salaries
by a large margin... (in my area it jumps from 30-90/hour)

~~~
lloyd-christmas
> if a programmer can make something extensible and maintainable

How do you know it's extensible and maintainable without having seen it last?
How quickly do you recognize pitfalls of decision-making? How many
applications have you built that you've seen fail? People vastly underestimate
the importance of burning your hand on the stove.

------
shams93
Engineering is a dead end job, especially outside of silicon valley. There is
0 respect for experience in the industry, we have more respect for someone who
has coded for 2 weeks than someone who continually improves over 25 years.
Unless you become a celebrity coder you find that your best choice going
forward is suicide. The industry won't let you have a social life or a family
once you hit 45 no one cares about you and suicide becomes your most positive
life option, or you can keep working 18-20 hours a day 7 days a week until you
get sick and die if you're lucky.

~~~
doozy
Seek help.

------
erobbins
I'm over 40 and haven't experienced any problems. I don't know if I'm lucky,
good, both, or just average and only the outliers are the ones having
difficulty.

------
jwr
This is idiotic. People over 40 trade one set of skills for another (source:
I'm over 40). You lose short-term memory, can't juggle too many things
simultaneously, and aren't always up to date on every latest fad. But what you
gain is fantastically valuable: intuition, abstract thinking, systems
thinking, ability to detect patterns in large systems, ability to notice that
certain problems have been solved in a different field, and lots more.

As I grow older, I notice these changes, and while I do regret not being able
to remember IP addresses after switching to a different window (get a larger
monitor, or just copy&paste), I am very happy with the overall shift.

~~~
matt_wulfeck
All of those things are great, but you're assuming your manager and peers will
value them like you do.

I see this type of thinking applied to an issue in a way that results in
people becoming increasingly irritated. Silicon Valley wants to hear "yes yes
yes", not reason why you think XYZ solution won't work.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Exactly: the ability to detect bullshit more quickly is unfortunately an
ability not appreciated by many companies. It isn't just SV that has this
problem. Those that tend to thrive in these environments past 40 are those who
have instead learned play the imperfect system aggressively for their own
benefit.

~~~
matt_wulfeck
Along with that, I think an important value is just not taking wrong ideas
personally. So some junior engineer wants to run off and do something that
might cause you a head ache. Let them do it and learn from it. Your goal in
life can't be to minimize everything that causes pain.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Oh, sure, but I'm not referring to that. It is more likely bullshit from upper
management, from even older people...who lost touch with reality long ago.

------
codecamper
Seems rather silly to discriminate against 4x people.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but most things great about computers were created by
people who are now older than 40.

Can people name a few important technologies that were created by someone
younger than 40?

And if you want to have your company bought, who will be buying? People who
are older than 40! (except for FB)

~~~
rebelidealist
i value older developers but ruby on rails, jquery, react, elxir and may more
popular libraries are created by guys in their 20s. Of course these tech and
build on shoulder of older giants.

------
new_hackers
Skills pay the bills.

Many of the over-40 crowd I've worked with just plain don't want to learn
anything new. They have settled, and are passive in their learning. This is
the #1 reason they won't be relevant.

~~~
angryasian
This is the exact attitude that makes tech a shit sector to be in. Its not
that people don't want learn anything, its that when you're 40 a lot more time
is invested in things outside of work. Kids, wife, house, etc. When you're 20,
nomadic, are by yourself, and have a ton of free time.. yes finding time to
learn is easy.

~~~
new_hackers
... and the medical field, and the law field, and the engineering field.
Basically if you want to get premium dollars when trading your skills, you
have to have premium skills.

~~~
angryasian
All those other fields value experience very highly. Software engineering is
the only field that doesn't care what you've worked on in the past or what
you've done. They only care about what trick algorithm that you will never
utilize that you can answer on a white board.

~~~
drather19
Several of those field mentioned also have fairly high barriers of entry in
terms of certification. They try to ensure that folks pursuing those careers
have a core level of understanding necessary to pursue work in those fields.
Whether or not they're successful in doing that is, of course, a matter of
debate (as everything is).

I know understanding CS fundamentals and employer expectations about this are
a lightning rod here, so I don't want to apply a value judgement on that here.
However, what's the equivalent to the board or bar exams in our field (that
lets us compare ourselves to those fields)?

~~~
emodendroket
That doesn't make sense. If the problem is that we don't have some sort of
licensing board, experience should be more highly valued, not less.

~~~
drather19
I guess where I was going was that there was a fairly high standard to "get in
the door" first, after which experience seems to be valued more uniformly (at
least more than in software).

We don't have the equivalent in software, and we also seem to have a recurring
discussion about effective ways to filter people during an interview process.
I've certainly had mixed results in my limited sample set when considering
past experience to actual performance of hires.

Is there a good way to translate the value of someone's experience?

EDIT: For that matter, I guess I should wonder how folks translate the value
of people in those other fields effectively (or if they do at all).

~~~
emodendroket
I don't know, but if you don't have other qualifications to go on, surely the
fact that they were able to hack it at other companies for a long time is the
strongest signal you have.

------
davidw
A mention of housing is obligatory: being able to live there with a family is
very, very difficult due to the train wreck of a housing market that area has.

------
karjaluoto
I have a tough time with these stories. Although I don’t dispute that this
bias exists, I feel like the subject matter is also damaging.

First of all, these articles are sensational and divisive. Folks over (or
nearing) middle age are sensitive. They worry about being outmoded and
removed/downsized. My hunch is that they read these articles out of fear. For
younger folks, I suspect it’s reassuring to know that you have something to
offer that older folks might not. So, for the publisher, these produce
clicks/views.

However, when you get past the personal examples of exclusion, and some of the
reductive arguments (e.g. “Younger people are just smarter.”) little of this
is as simple as it first seems.

Fact is, for a long time, older workers were less technically competent than
their younger counterparts. That said, for a generation that grew up with
technology, this isn’t so much the case any longer. This became painfully
obvious to me, while sitting with an Apple “Genius” one day. He was very hip;
however, I needed to explain to him how to use the Find function in his
browser. (Seriously.)

Young and older people both have something to contribute. Young ones often
bring new ideas and perspectives because they’ve grown up differently. They
lend enthusiasm and energy that older staff sometimes don’t. Frankly, older
ones often don’t want to work marathon hours (this isn’t always the case, but
tends to be). That said, older workers typically bring more knowledge and
experience to the table.

I suspect that part of the bias in favor of younger workers comes from younger
business owners (common in startups). I ran into this when we started our
design studio. I was 26. At the time, it was scary to hire a 50-year-old to
come in, because I didn’t feel comfortable directing someone that much older
than me (I probably wouldn’t have admitted this at the time).

Additionally, those people typically wanted to earn more—and we didn’t think
we could afford them. So, we hired younger folks who worked at a lower hourly
rate, but often needed an inordinate amount of training and support.

Were I to start that company all over again, I’d do the opposite. I’d hire
more skilled people and pay more than market rate. I’d then gauge their
performance, and retain/dismiss solely based on that. In my experience, a
skilled person at a higher rate of pay was always more valuable/profitable for
our company than a less-skilled worker at a lower rate of pay.

My point is that the companies which use age as a barometer of value are
approaching HR in a flawed way. The contribution of a staff member is more
important than the date on his/her birth certificate. Meanwhile, the garment
choices and pop-culture references one uses shouldn’t have any bearing on the
value of the individual (unless we’re talking about a company who traffics in
such matter).

That said, I think the real problem is the employee mindset. So long as your
livelihood depends on one single organization, you put yourself at risk.

This is doubly-so for those who remain loyal to a company for a decade or
more. HR departments are notoriously short-sighted when it comes to assessing
skills. They like seeing candidates who fulfill the specific requirements of a
job. Meanwhile, they often don’t understand which skills are transferrable
(because they typically don’t actually understand the work/technology).

So, if you’ve worked in print publishing for the past 20 years, an HR person
might not hire you to work in a digital content shop. However, web
technologies aren’t that hard to master. Knowing a good story, understanding
what attracts an audience, and having strong people skills are all much more
valuable (and difficult to learn skills). But, still, those hiring often won’t
see this—which puts such a person at a disadvantage.

There are many reasons why running your own startup, studio, consultancy are
difficult. That said, all of these pursuits force you to be nimble. Most of
them also allow you to distribute your income sources among multiple
groups—which builds resilience.

And, after you’ve done any of these things, you tend to be more
employable—because you have a stronger sense of what companies need.
(Additionally, those who’ve “done it on their own” often exhibit
characteristics that are attractive to management—especially those whose
current staff is comprised primarily of box fillers.)

My point here (and I know I’ve carried on) is that the age discussion is a red
herring. The real matter is how one remains relevant/valuable—regardless of
age. Continual learning is a part of that. Another is one’s ability to adapt
to less familiar roles (e.g., planning, sales, management, guidance). More
importantly, though, no one should treat their employer as the gatekeeper to
their future.

We’re all free agents. Some of us are mostly independent. Others play for
teams. Those who play for teams should always know—and build—their value, so
they don’t end up marooned.

------
sjg007
This will change as the bulk of millennials get older but it doesn't help
anyone now. Network, network, network.

------
oldmanjay
I'm over 40 and I've been continuing to get more work than I can handle by
staying up to date on my tech skills. Maybe that professional headshot I never
got would help, though.

~~~
boto3
amen to that, older engineers would require higher salaries (due to the need
to support family, to pay mortgage, etc.), and would not be able to put in the
same number of hours. So if you can't demonstrate that you provide more values
than the younger guns, why would an employer want to hire older engineers?

~~~
refractiveco
In theory the more experience you have the fewer hours you would need to put
in. You've solved all the common problems engineers face 10 times before.

~~~
new_hackers
This.

I've found the need to be a 60+ hour hero means that you don't really know
what you are doing.

The guy who goes home early on Fridays, that is the guy who knows his stuff.

~~~
minipci1321
> means that you don't really know what you are doing.

Or spending too much time in the calls instead of doing the damn thing. Or
counting handling the email client as work hours.

------
6dqh5yapl3
I'm 24. Guess I should buy a shitty condo in Hayward with a 15 year mortgage
so I'm paid off when the age discrimination kicks in. 40+ year old engineers
with prop 13 equity or rent control - I'm jealous.

~~~
jraines
Hayward's not so bad at all :)

Get the quake insurance though.

I still wince when I see what the cost of a Hayward condo would buy back in
Georgia.

~~~
6dqh5yapl3
If you live in Hayward, do you happen to know how much the insurance costs?

Hard to get a quote without providing an address. And I don't want to someone
to get spammed by an insurance seller because they listed their home for sale
and I used it to get an insurance quote.

~~~
jraines
Not exactly sure because I rent; one site I saw says the average in Alameda
County is $1,800/yr

------
tapmap
This is such bullshit. There are no limits on entrepreneurship and the age at
which you can start a business, which is what drives real growth and value in
Silicon Valley. Sure, if you want to be a wage slave to some other company,
and help someone else achieve their dreams, go ahead and work for another
company, and get discriminated against because of your grey hair.

~~~
st3v3r
The skillset and risk profile for being an entrepreneur vs being an engineer
are completely different.

------
coleifer
My parents and my friends' parents are all nearing retirement age, and I've
been surprised by the profound differences in their responses to the
realization that they are becoming old.

It seems clear to me that age is just a state of mind. Some people act old and
are cautious fucks that recoil from change. Others try very hard to appear as
if they "get it", though they obviously don't, and the fact that they're
trying so hard ends up looking pathetic to me.

Then there are the ones who don't give a fuck, and they are the best. I think
they're the ones who are truly the wisest, and their vitality is infectious,
they don't "seem" old.

My point is this: if you're 40 years old and are all butthurt that no Silicon
Valley company wants to hire you, your butthurt only proves that the company
was right not to hire you in the first place.

~~~
rdiddly
Well you had me and then you lost me. But speaking as one of the ones who
doesn't give a fuck, I'd say it's because we know we're right. Like if I think
"I'm a great candidate" and some company made up of little twerps says "Yeah
we don't think so," I know I'm the one who's right. My answer is based on
(let's say) 25 years of working that career; theirs is based on a 60-minute
interview. (Done by someone who's spent most of his life sponging off mom &
dad.)

Which still proves that they were right not to hire me -- but it's because
THEY suck and I would be miserable. (And actually I would probably screen out
this kind of "opportunity" before it got to the "yea or nay" stage.)

~~~
coleifer
I had you and then I lost you? I don't think I ever had you, Mr. Great
Candidate. I'm glad you feel so comfortable in your own skin that, despite
your obvious superiority, the rejection of the little twerps doesn't keep you
down.

Clearly I never had you.

~~~
rdiddly
Yeah, you had me at "People have different reactions to aging," and you lost
me at "If you're mad about unfair treatment, that proves you deserved whatever
it was."

------
6stringmerc
"I had it good and now I don't have it good and I don't know what to do about
it" is a fairly formulaic structure for a human interest story, and while I
really loathe human suffering, it's also hard for me to sympathise with the
subjects in stories such as this one.

> _“If you’ve worked at a large company for 10 years and get laid off, chances
> are your skills are six generations behind,” says Jonathan Nelson, chief
> executive officer of the Valley social network Hackers /Founders, which
> organizes meetups for startup developers._

10 years? To quote the character Samir from the film _Office Space_ "It would
be nice to have that kind of job security." I've grown up in a US workforce
where staying in the same job for more than 2 years is essentially taking a
pay-cut because raises / bonuses don't keep up with real-world inflation (milk
& brisket, for instance). To further belabor my point, I joined the work force
during a Recession, and statistics indicate my lifetime take-home (salary,
benefits, etc) will be significantly lower than...well, what these folks
enjoyed during their prime earning years. I won't even have a decent interest
rate environment for my savings to grow without joining in the equities
casino.

For the life of me I have a lot of trouble feeling sorry for their plight, and
wish them all the best of luck packing up their possessions, their savings,
and moving to a place they can afford, like Mississippi or Indiana. As Sick
Boy might say, "You had it, you lost it, and it's gone forever." Such is one
theory of life.

~~~
stcredzero
_For the life of me I have a lot of trouble feeling sorry for their plight,
and wish them all the best of luck packing up their possessions, their
savings, and moving to a place they can afford, like Mississippi or Indiana._

Someday, perhaps I might ponder whether I should feel sorry for you, and wish
you the best of luck packing up your possessions, your savings, as you move to
a place you can afford, like Mississippi or Indiana.

A lot of 20-somethings treated me like "bantha pudu" in interviews. I can
empirically say that I had never faced such unprofessional rudeness before I
moved to the Bay Area. I had never had such mistaken and hasty accusations
that I was lying. I had never had people simply blow me off for a phone
interview. Never before have I had to _try so hard to avoid negative
stereotypes_ in a professional setting. In my time in places like Indiana,
Pennsylvania, and Ohio, those things were all limited to social settings.

To quote a song from the 60's, if we're all so open and progressive, why am I
"picking up that funny vibe?" (To be fair, this isn't everyone in their 20's
around here. But the population isn't zero by far!)

