
Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut - KenCochrane
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/14/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school/?hpt=hp_t1
======
ColinWright
From <http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

    
    
        Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, ...
        If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
    

Yes, this is important, yes, it's newsworthy. No, it's not "Hacker News". It's
all over the news, and there's nothing specific about hacking, or start-ups.
It's not even of "deep interest" in any real sense. It's tragedy, pure and
simple, and then it becomes politics.

~~~
pg
Note those words most and probably.

~~~
ColinWright
Noted. Thank you for replying.

So let me ask - given that this is all over every news channel I have access
to, and every other tweet in my feed is about it, do you feel that it's
appropriate here?

If so then I will reassess my understanding of what you want this site to be.
I appreciate that I might be wrong, and I'm willing, even eager, to assimilate
more data on this and adjust my views accordingly.

It's your site - I'm pleased to have the opportunity to gain insight.

------
untog
I can't wait until the part where we all don't talk about gun control and
carry on as usual. Sigh.

EDIT: I see my post is being downvoted. I know that it may come across as
insensitive to immediately leap to the gun control debate, but frankly I'm
more angry than upset by this news. How many times does it have to happen? We
have a good 48 hours of emotional outpouring and then everyone forgets it ever
happened.

~~~
InclinedPlane
This has nothing to do with gun control. Guns exist, that can't be stopped any
more than preventing alcohol from existing (prohibition), and some bad guys
will always have access to guns. Or knives, or diesel fuel, or explosives.

Was the Oklahoma-city bombing a wake-up call for "explosives control"? Was the
2009 Chengdu bus-fire (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Chengdu_bus_fire>) a
wake-up call for diesel control? Was the Osaka school massacre
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre>) a wake-up call for
knife-control? Was the 2012 Toronto mall shooting a wake-up call for gun-
control in Canada, which already has extremely stringent gun-laws?

It's all too easy to blame the gun in these situations, but guns are just
tools, as are knives, and diesel fuel, and even explosives.

It's not the gun. It never was the gun. It's the person.

~~~
onli
If you look in the history of states which had a problem with gun-violence,
you can see that banning guns actually works. After banning, destroying and
controlling guns, the amount of massacres and murders falls down. One example
of this is germany (i think in the 1970s), but you can look earlier or at the
history of other countries to find examples for that.

The situation over here is a tragedy, because all school shootings were
commited by sons of fathers who were members of a shooting clubs (and
therefore had access to guns). Even though it was not politically possible to
ban those clubs and weapons.

But the situation in the USA is even more a tragedy. The USA have shooting
after shooting with so many dead kids, and still the political forces are not
able to ban guns. Or even slightly control them. Sickening.

~~~
absconditus
There are numerous counter examples. Chicago had a handgun ban, and held the
record for handgun murders for many years while the ban was in place.

~~~
jcromartie
Because Chicago is neighbors with cities and states where handguns are easy to
obtain, and you don't need a passport to enter or leave Chicago.

~~~
absconditus
Or the problem has nothing to do with access to guns.

~~~
lostlogin
I think your phrasing that wrong. If gun deaths are the problem, then guns
are, by definition, going to be part of the problem. However their may be
contributing or even bigger problems involved.

------
jacquesm
The psychology behind the kind of people that could do a thing like this
baffles me completely. Insanity doesn't begin to describe it. Parents should
not have to worry about whether or not their children are safe in school. At
the same time armed guards at school are not a solution either, then you might
as well turn it into a mini prison.

What a sad sad day.

Even countries with gun control have instances like this (but they're arguably
less frequent), and some countries with lots of guns have almost no problems
like this at all (Switzerland for instance).

Just trying to imagine dropping a grade school kid off at school to find them
dead in the afternoon from an insane thing like this I find that I can't do
it, it is just too far from what I can still imagine. And I have a pretty rich
imagination...

This world could be so nice, why does it have to be such a crappy place?

~~~
purplelobster
Can pro-gun people please stop using Switzerland as their go to argument? Do
you know why they have so many guns? Because people who have done military
service are required to keep a rifle locked up in their house. These are
trained people who have gone through psychology tests and military training.
That is very very fucking different than the situation in the US.

~~~
pdeuchler
Because as we all know, psychology tests and military training are foolproof
for sifting out the crazies.

~~~
ninininini
I don't think anyone expects a foolproof solution. If we could come up with a
solution where a few less crazy people had guns I'd be happier. Some training
or licensing of guns ought to be discussed

------
JoeCortopassi
Listen, there are two parts to this: 1. The horrible tragedy, and 2. The hopes
to prevent this from happening again. If we are going to talk about this, we
need to all fall under the assumption that we agree that this is both a very
tragic act perpetrated by someone who is obviously disturbed/mentally ill, and
that it is all of our desires to do what we can to make sure senseless acts of
violence like this _never happen again_.

So where do we go from here? How do we prevent this from happening again? It
seems that there are two schools of thought (generalizing obviously): 1.
Disarm everyone, and 2. Allow everyone to carry weapons. Regardless of which
side you fall in, neither work perfectly unless they are complete (i.e. all
weapons are gone thus criminals don't even have access, or everyone is armed
and no one has the upper hand). The problem with both absolutes, is a deranged
person will _always_ find a means to carry out their ill will, whether that's
a gun/knife/driving a car into a crowd.

The safest computer is encased in concrete, and buried 6 feet underground.
Much in the same way, the safest society would have each of us locked in a
room, with no interaction. What we have to figure out is this: How much
liberty do we all give up, to limit the devastation of the senseless acts of a
few?

~~~
r00fus
> 1\. Disarm everyone, and 2. Allow everyone to carry weapons.

Nice strawmen. There are obviously options in the middle, namely, increasing
traceability of weapons and ammo and shutting down channels that where weapons
are allowed to change hands anonymously.

The proliferation of weapons is one thing, but the fact that these tragedies
occur and we don't have a way to follow the chain back to the disreputable
dealer who sold these armaments - and shut them down - is just non-sensical.

The 2nd amendment fundamentalists who don't even want question how these
weapons can get in the wrong hands - often use that same strawman you pose
above - which is rediculous - many folks support the 2nd amendment yet find
the need for further action to prevent these events from happening.

~~~
dsl
Disreputable dealer? I absolutely agree, any car used in a drunk driving
accident should be traced back to the dealer responsible, and they should be
punished.

If you can determine in advance who the "wrong hands" are, I'm sure the TSA
would love to speak to you and dump buckets of money over your head.

~~~
gnu8
Or cars used in any accidents. Thousands of people die in car collisions every
year, accidental and intentional, whether they were drunk or sober, reckless
or diligent, or just an innocent pedestrian or cyclist who happened to have
bad luck that day.

A few days ago someone posted a web site called <http://www.banthecar.com>
where they laid out detailed arguments for banning all cars, because of all
the problems they cause, including accidental deaths. Obviously banning cars
is not reasonable or realistic.

We have a process for who is and is not allowed to drive a car, and we are
fairly comfortable with it, even though it still fails to prevent thousands of
deaths. The process of firearm ownership could use some adjustments, but
ultimately we cannot prevent all deaths. The best we can do is prevent those
who are obviously unsuitable(1) from owning firearms, and ensuring we have a
system to remove the rights of those who abuse them.

(1) this is very dangerous due to the history of gun control being used to
enable racism and genocide. The criteria must be objective, not subjective.

~~~
dbaupp
_> history of gun control being used to enable racism and genocide_

Reference? (Genuine question.)

~~~
gnu8
Here are a few.

Racism:

<http://constitution.org/cmt/cramer/racist_roots.htm>

<http://www.guncite.com/journals/gun_control_wtr8512.html>

Genocide:

[http://www.davekopel.com/2a/Foreign/gun-bans-and-
genocide.ht...](http://www.davekopel.com/2a/Foreign/gun-bans-and-genocide.htm)

<http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm>

~~~
dbaupp
Ah, interesting, it does seem that gun control can be a tool for racism and
genocide.

However, I'm only willing to take those as anecdotal evidence for promoting
less gun control: they are all written by people and groups who are heavily
invested against gun control, i.e. a very high risk of motivated thinking,
research and writing.

(Sure, one might point at all the references and evidence they provide, but
what are they _not_ saying? What about a discussion of the countries around
the world with gun control that has (as far as I can see) no racist or
genocidal purpose (e.g. most of modern Europe, Australia, New Zealand)?)

------
xauronx
This isn't hacker news. I'm going to see this depressing, heart wrenching news
in a hundred other places... let me have my one safe technology news site :(

~~~
marknutter
True, but it's a community whose opinion I trust more than most others, so
it's often enlightening to read comments about non-hacker news posts once and
a while.

~~~
xauronx
I know... I'm not trying to be a dick about it. My mind just recoils from this
stuff.

------
malkia
Horrible news. Also in China someone this morning stabbed 22 children at
elementary school - wtf... [http://blogs.voanews.com/breaking-
news/2012/12/14/man-stabs-...](http://blogs.voanews.com/breaking-
news/2012/12/14/man-stabs-22-children-at-chinese-elementary-school/)

~~~
marknutter
When are we going to start talking about knife control in a serious way?

~~~
habosa
Really not the time for jokes.

~~~
sgarman
I think any conversation is better then no conversation be it a joke or not.
The comment actually brought out some really great points on the issue.

------
btilly
This is a tragedy, but why is it on HN?

From <http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html> we have:

 _Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're
evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters,
or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-
topic._

That fits this story.

~~~
ColinWright
I said the same thing here:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4922380>

PG himself has chimed in to point out the words "most" and "probably".

I'm with you, but we seem notto be in accord with the site owner.

~~~
btilly
It seemed to me that PG took a neutral stance.

~~~
ColinWright
Felt a lot more to me that he was saying that the "most" and "probably" made
this case an exception.

------
AlexMuir
Awful, tragic things happen every day. Some can be prevented and some can't.
It's highly unlikely that this is saddest thing to have happened in the world
today.

There are a certain percentage of people in the world who will kill people for
no reason, molest children, order executions and market crystal meth to young
mums. This has always been the way, and will always continue to be.

Now I'm not belittling it as a tragedy, but we have to accept that some
terrible things just happen and cannot be prevented or deterred. They always
have, and they will continue to do so.

Sometimes there is no lesson to be learned, and we have to accept that what
we've seen is a manifestation of human nature, in the same way that lightning
is a manifestation of nature itself. Neither are predictable, preventable and
both will happen forever.

------
ryusage
Am I the only one who finds it strange (or even slightly disturbing) that this
is essentially an after the fact live-blog of the event? For those connected
to this school, I can understand wanting information and not wanting to wait.
For anyone else, it just seems like obsessive rubbernecking taken to the
extreme.

------
crazygringo
This may seem tangential, but I swear it's not. We live in a country (US)
where growth and progress is measured primarily in GDP. Poverty is measured
economically. People's happiness is blithely assumed to be some kind of
function of their economic well-being, especially because that can be
measured.

There are alternative ideas like "Gross National Happiness" that attempt to
measure what could arguably be called the _end_ , as opposed the means
(economic). This is generally presented as an alternative goal, to raise the
"GNH" of a country. And it's certainly a valid one.

But what if, even more importantly, it's not the _gross_ "national happiness",
but rather its _distribution_?

The perpetrator in this horrible tragedy was clearly horribly unhappy, and
almost certainly with severe mental problems. But this isn't a private
concern, because in cases like this it becomes a national problem.

When are we going to stop concentrating so much on economic progress and GDP,
and start considering how our society and institutions provide for people at
the bottom rung of the "happiness" ladder? When are we going to move mental
health from a "side issue" about "sick people" that "doesn't concern me", to a
central national priority?

There's so much work to be done, and it's barely even a blip in the
conversation.

~~~
the_economist
I don't think it's a matter of focusing on happiness. Mental illness a medical
issue, like cancer and heart disease.

We need to develop a cure, and when we do, days like this will be far less
common.

------
KenCochrane
Looks like it is even more now..

This link reports 27 people dead, including 18 children:

[http://www.pressherald.com/news/Gunman-killed-in-Conn-
school...](http://www.pressherald.com/news/Gunman-killed-in-Conn-school-
shooting-.html?cmpid=breaking-news-box)

so sad

------
jwwest
First off, the school shooting is a complete tragedy, there's no two ways
about it. It's sickening and frustrating and depressing. I can't imagine what
something like this does to a person or how a person is drawn to do something
like this.

However, our world isn't any different than it was. There's hope in
everything. Crazy, murderous people have always existed and will always exist.
Life has always had tragedies, even ones bigger than this. As humans, we're
designed to look at the most recent thing and go "oh my god, this is the worst
thing ever" in order to deal with problems - it's just how we're designed.

What I'm getting at is that the world will be here tomorrow, and it's not
ending any time soon. There's plenty of hope in this world, we just lack the
proper context sometimes:

1) Your children are more at risk dying in a car accident or eating crappy
food than a school shooting.

2) You're more likely to die of a lightning strike than a terrorist attack.

3) If we couldn't have guns, he would have used a knife.

Be hopeful for the world.

------
washedup
A father of one of the children's... how does our society produce individuals
like this? I know there are probably dozens of answers...

edit: just to be clear, I am not a father of one of the children. I was told
the shooter was a father of one of the children at the school. Not sure if
that is correct.

~~~
debacle
Very many people suffer from undiagnosed mental illness.

An even larger amount just go way off the deep end.

~~~
gnu8
Many who suffer diagnosed mental illnesses roam the streets because we don't
care for them. Our mental healthcare system is that of a third world country.

------
alexbell
It's depressing how we are becoming numb to mass shootings due to their
frequency. It seems like a week can't go by without a tragedy like this
occurring.

~~~
marknutter
We're numb to them like we are all other kinds of deaths. Hurricanes, winter,
car accidents, tornadoes, etc. There are ways to die are far more preventable
than mass shootings that we should be focusing on.

------
jwco
here is a way to combine technology and transparency to make it more difficult
for someone to do this:

guns owned in America have mandatory geolocation installed. guns lock if
geolocation is disabled or hacked, an alert is autosent to local people and
authorities with the last known location, and law enforces speedy
investigation of the guns whereabouts and reinstallation of the geolocator.
i'd like an app that tells me where the nearest guns are to me and some info
about who they belong to, i.e. police, citizen, military etc. if a gun is
brought near public spaces, schools, theaters, etc., it should tweet, sms, or
otherwise alert local police and anyone who would like to know. i'd like to
also set my own alerts, such as alert me if a non-police gun is within a few
hundred feet of my location, or my kid's location, etc. the constitution says
there is a "right of the people to keep and bear arms," but does not use the
word "right" to defend privacy.

------
loup-vaillant
While I don't want to diminish the magnitude of the tragedy described here,
I'd like to remind everyone that there are many other causes of untimely death
that, while mundane, are much more lethal. Take for instance car crashes, or
most diseases.

If the goal is to fight untimely death, we should take a hard look at the cold
numbers. One will find for instance that smoking scenes in films kill far more
people than those shootings. [1]

No, it should not happen ever again. However, we should not forget about the
other priorities.

[1]: Regular exposure to smoking scenes makes children and teenagers far more
likely to smoke later on. Smoking makes you far more likely to have cancer and
such. And having cancer most likely shorten your lifespan. Despite the 3
layers of indirection, the numbers are so massive that a single smoking scene
in a blockbuster is probably more lethal than a fully loaded gun.

------
pchivers
Here is an interesting infographic from the National Post:

[http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/28/guns-ownership-
aroun...](http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/28/guns-ownership-around-the-
world-graphic/)

"In 2007, the U.S. had the highest gun ownership rate in the world - an
average of 88 per 100 people. But the U.S. does not have the worst firearm
murder rate - that prize belongs to Honduras, El Salvador and Jamaica. In
fact, the U.S. is well down the list with a rate of 2.97 per 100,000 people.
Below is a list of countries with available firearm data from 2007 starting
with countries where firearms are most common."

------
grkballer44
Within a couple years this exact scenario will play out. A gunmen will talk in
a crowded place loaded to the gills. Assault rifles, bullet proof vest,
explosives hid around the building. He will pull out his gun and kill the poor
unsuspecting first soul. After that initial shot someone with a concealed
weapons permit is going to blow his brains out cutting his rampage short ( I
truly hope the person who plays the hero is a little old lady packing heat in
her purse).

~~~
nollidge
Right, because everybody with a concealed weapons permit is James Bond with
perfect aim and cool nerves.

Reality is a little bit messier than your fantasies.

~~~
sukuriant
The point was that "he with the gun holds the power" in those situations. And
I'm sure the person with the gun feels like that. Make the odds of him having
his tables turned on him by respectable law abiding citizens, and suddenly
he'll be more afraid to do harm.

Ideally.

As a side note, she shouldn't shoot for the head anyway, especially if the
bullet is going to go propelling out of the man. That's a great way to have
unintended collateral damage.

~~~
ceejayoz
> Make the odds of him having his tables turned on him by respectable law
> abiding citizens, and suddenly he'll be more afraid to do harm.

Uh, we're talking about people who are frequently suicidal and are mentally
ill enough to shoot up a kindergarten. I suspect they're not weighing odds in
a logical manner, somehow.

~~~
sukuriant
I believe the parent post was speaking about a regular place in the city, not
so much a school.

------
Kilimanjaro
Please, if you want to go postal, don't aim at our kids, aim at the
politicians.

Drain your frustrations with those who destroy our future, not those who will
build it.

------
mvleming
I think we have to be careful when things like this happen. It's god-awful. I
can't imagine if I was in third grade and a guy barged in and started shooting
up the place. But this makes me think of "You can always find evidence for
your beliefs." I could take this story as evidence that the world is such a
crappy place, but I don't believe that so I won't.

Everything will be okay.

------
jweir
Something to be aware of

Ruger's 1 Million Gun Challenge
<http://www.ruger.com/micros/million/about.html>

~~~
goostavos
I fail to understand the point of your comment. Why do we need to be aware of
a gun manufacturer wanting to sell guns?

~~~
jweir
Wanting to sell guns is a given.

I was surprised(not shocked) to learn of the contest for one manufacturer to
sell over a million guns in one year with the goal of increasing funding for
lobbyists.

1.2 million guns is a lot of weapons to sell in a year.

------
mkr-hn
I recommend against reading the principal's last tweets.

------
sidcool
And there should be no gun control....Bollocks.

~~~
bstewartny
Gun control cant and wont solve these problems. These are societal problems.
Anyone insane and evil enough to kill children would get guns on the black
market or use some other weapon such as a bomb. Schools need to able to have
armed guards and better locked/secured entries IMO.

~~~
lostlogin
Then why is this problem more prevalent in America? I know this sounds like
baiting, it isn't. Surely gun laws come into it, even if they aren't the root
cause (they aren't IMHO).

~~~
short_circut
I can't say for sure but I suspect the problem in the US stems from a number
of factors not at all related to gun laws. Just a short list (for overall gun
violence):

1) The way our prison system works. It makes people worse. It makes them
better criminals. It removes much of their opportunity to get better (try
getting a decent job as a felon). It creates desperation. 2) the way we treat
mental illness. By that I mean it is demonized and ignored. Does health
insurance even cover mental health exams or treatments? Probably not basic
coverage 3) Disparity of wealth. In the town I live in there are people living
in absolute poverty and people driving around in lamborghinis and million
dollar churches. The cost of that car could feed 50 people for a year.

In thiscase there is no telling what the root cause was yet. I suspect a case
of someone just losing it.

------
paulhauggis
A news anchor on CNN had a theory about how as a society, we are becoming less
empathetic because of our tendency to have more and more online relationships.

Just look at the people on Twitter and even here on HN. You act very
differently than you would in real life. I almost wonder if there is something
to this and has an effect on some people, which leads to less empathy in real
life.

~~~
paulhauggis
I guess HN really is going down hill. I wasn't trolling at all and genuinely
had some thoughts on the topic, and I am downvoted with no comment.

