
BYU Students Value Their Strict Honor Code. But Not the Harsh Punishments - bookofjoe
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/12/us/byu-honor-code.html
======
Jordanpomeroy
Bring on the parade of Mormons that think they’re unfairly persecuted. Maybe
they’ll start another Change.org request to make NYT change their tone. “They
shouldn’t sign the honor code if they don’t want to live it.” “Go to another
university!” I heard the same comments when the SL Trib won a Pulitzer showing
that RAPE VICTIMS were further abused by the BYU Honor Code Office. I heard
the same comments about the push to de-list the BYU police department because
they won’t provide information as required by state law. It is my opinion
these same people would rebel the strongest against allowing Sharia law. How
ironic they are allaying the foundation, brick by brick. It’s easy to say “not
my clowns, not my circus”, but folks, these people are destroying fundamental
rights guaranteed to all Americans.

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ashton314
Context: I'm an undergraduate student studying at BYU.

This article puts a nasty and unfair spin on the whole situation. While I do
accept that there are probably some things that could be changed with the way
the HCO handles cases, this article is reporting false or misleading
information.

For starters, the bit about "mandatory religious worship" as punishment is
nonsense. I don't know where they got that. Probably a misunderstanding of how
the HC Office encourages students to attend their worship services---whatever
their religion might be. Secondly, "stories of being suspended or expelled for
violations such as kissing a date good night," etc. is ludicrous. BYU hasn't
expelled anyone in 2019---and only two people in the current academic year.
Those were for _crimes_ : Title IX violations and the like. If they expelled
people for all the things mentioned in the article, (and on Instagram) BYU
would have a _much_ higher expulsion rate.

Many of the stories on the mentioned Instagram page are pure fabrication. Many
more are highly embellished. After talking with some people involved with the
protest, I went and talked to the HCO myself with some hard questions: the
Honor Code Office is not there to expel or punish students---they're there
primarily to help students develop character and morally-upright lives. (This
being one of the aims of BYU's education.)

Granted, I would like to see some sort of student component in the HCO. I
think that's a good idea. There are unfortunately a lot of people who are just
angry at an institution trying to do good.

If you're curious, I recommend reading the source instead of trusting the NYT:
[https://honorcode.byu.edu](https://honorcode.byu.edu)

~~~
Mbioguy
You're being disingenuous and attempting to deflect from real issues. It's not
only the text of the honor code that matters, but also the social context and
how it is applied.

If you attend BYU as an LDS member, you need to maintain an ecclesiastical
endorsement. Part of this includes paying tithing and attending at least some
services. If you do not maintain your ecclesiastical endorsement, you can have
a hold put on your account to where you can't register for additional classes,
graduate, and possibly can't even apply for a transcript. In short, they can
keep you from transferring schools unless you are willing to start from
scratch, in order to get you to comply. Yes, that is mandatory religious
worship, just with extra steps between point a and c. I should know. I
attended BYU within the last decade and stopped believing at that time. You
are not free to cease being a practicing LDS member. As it is a private
school, I would have been fine had they simply asked me to pay the non-member
tuition, or requested that I transfer schools. Instead they held my transcript
as punishment. I had to grovel and go through a family friend to get an
ecclesiastical endorsement to get a transcript. What rubbish. Surely you would
be upset if Notre Dame treated a student who converted from Catholicism to
Mormonism similarly?

The Honor Code Office has a whole history rife with abuse. In 2015, student
Madi Barney was raped. She reported this to Provo police. She was placed under
investigation by the Honor Code Office and was barred for a time from
enrolling in classes. Unlike previous victims of this institutional abuse, she
fought back and went public, ultimately forcing the Title IX office to
formally separate from the Honor Code office. Previously information had been
shared freely between the two.

[https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=4732048&itype=CMSI...](https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=4732048&itype=CMSID)

And it's not just the Honor Code Office and the Title IX office. BYU's campus
police department was and is complicit in the institutional abuse of authority
wielded to keep students in line. Earlier this year the BYU police department
was sanctioned in a move to decertify the entire police department. This
happened because they failed to investigate misconduct where campus officers
were accessing and sharing information using external police databases.

[https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2019/02/26/utah-
moves-d...](https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2019/02/26/utah-moves-
decertify-byu/)

In my own personal experience, I and friends disclosed information to
religious leaders, which was subsequently disclosed to the honor code office
and used to justify academic probation and punishment. Yes, this was
absolutely a blatant violation of priest-penitent confidentiality.

Think about that for a minute. Think about the sharing of information between
religious authorities, school's honor code office, title IX office, campus
police, and external law enforcement. All in a direct line. Institutional
abuse of power and crossing lines that should not be crossed.

The social implications of student body awareness that the Honor Code can be
used against you as a student, has been taken advantage of by predators.
During my time on campus, talking with victims of sexual assault, the
following was explained to me. Would-be predators would attempt to target
individuals, like women or closeted gay men, and manipulate them into breaking
the honor code in some manner. And have a recording of this. And then assault
them or attempt to coerce them. If the victim then went to the police, the
campus would become aware that they had previously broken the Honor Code and
would have action taken against them. This was used to try to silence victims
and prevent them from turning to the authorities for help. And you know what?
It worked in a number of cases I personally knew of, allowing predators to
victimize multiple individuals before being stopped.

I'm no longer a believer, but reading this comment, I assume you are. Is this
how you believe Jesus would want his church, and a school supposedly run in
his name, behaving?

~~~
Digory
FWIW, What you described as your personal experience doesn’t strike me as all
that abusive.

If my (non Mormon) pastor was told someone was violating title IX (sex
assault), I’d expect them to report to various other authorities. Mandatory
reporting laws mean most information communicated to religious leaders abouse
sexual harm isn’t all that confidential.

Maybe Mormons have a relationship to clergy more like Catholics do to priests?

~~~
Mbioguy
You've got it backwards. This has nothing to do with mandatory reporting laws.
You are assuming something is said about person B during person A's
confessional. That isn't what is being described.

A student confesses to their religious leaders that they have done some sin.
Fine, go through the religious repentance process. That's how things normally
work in other religions too. A religious leader doesn't have authority to
academically punish someone. What doesn't normally happen, is that this info
gets shared with a school authority that does. And then the school authority
shares info with campus police, from where it can also go into state or
federal databases.

Or it goes the other way, where info given to city police ends up in the hands
of academic or religious folks who use it abusively.

A student like Madi Barney is assaulted, she goes to city police. City police
share detailed info with campus police, who share it with title ix and honor
code office, who share it with religious authorities. She was not the
assaulter, she was the victim. Yet, because a part of the police report
includes a history of some breaking of the honor code, even though as in my
original response predators manipulate folks into doing this, she ends up
being investigated and punished academically and religiously. City PD ends up
functionally an investigation and enforcement arm of academic and religious
authorities. That is ABSOLUTELY institutional abuse of power.

I didn't share much of my personal experiences, just enough to rebut the claim
that religious attendance is not mandatory, that was the purpose of paragraphs
1-2 so I don't know what you are going on about. The rest of the response was
what detailed the abusive system.

I didn't even touch on how this is used against LGBT students.

------
pontifier
I live very close to this university and have had 2 friends relate the same
basic story: They each gained a reputation for being discreet (not sure
exactly how that worked) and slept with many, many girls who attended BYU.

