
The world’s most liveable cities - walterbell
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/08/daily-chart-14
======
morgante
> Ten of these cities are in western Europe, notably Paris, which has suffered
> multiple terrorist attacks.

This seems incredibly misguided and really makes me question the entire
ranking. It's one thing for the populace to irrationally fear terrorist
attacks, it's another thing to codify that fear into an actual ranking without
considering the vanishingly small chance of being affected.

The likelihood of you being a victim of a terrorist attack in any western city
is negligible. It should simply not be a factor in considering where to live,
full stop. The ranking doesn't include the percentage chance of an air
conditioner falling on you, so it shouldn't consider terrorism.

~~~
abstractbeliefs
On the flip side, while the actual _risk_ we all agree is low, that's not the
same as the human fear of it.

Even if illogical, given two otherwise equal cities, which is more "livable":
the one with a stable and open atmosphere, or the one with scared citizens,
under a state of emergency, where the country at large is implementing knee-
jerk responses against the "others" who are related to this attack
(referencing the current burkini bans rolling across France).

~~~
morgante
That's a good point that I hadn't considered.

It would be much better if they directly measured the impact of this on cities
though, particularly because the reaction to terrorist attacks is vastly
different (see the difference in German and French reactions, for example). In
fact, it could then penalize heavy-handed responses even when there _hasn 't_
been a terrorist attack. For example, the US maintains some draconian security
measures and a police state mentality even though there haven't been any
recent terror attacks (does every single MTA rider really need to be
constantly reminded to watch suspicious packages?).

For that matter, I'm confident that you're quite safe from terrorism in Dubai.
But the ranking should really include the dramatic security
apparatus/environment which is in place to maintain that safety.

~~~
kaeluka
Almost per definition, most of the damage done is the public reaction. In that
sense, the US is affected much more than countries who have been targeted much
more recently.

------
dcw303
I used to live in Melbourne and now live in Tokyo. I really enjoyed my time in
Melbourne, but I don't see how the two can be seen as comparable in crime or
public transport.

Tokyo's rail system is fantastic and cheap. I can get to basically anywhere
within the city in a very short amount of time. I used to have trouble with
train delays and cancellations in Melbourne, and the timetable was more a
rough estimate than anything that could be counted on. Don't know if it's
changed that much since I left ten years ago.

And to me, safety at night is quite different. I feel safe going out here;
whether it was true or not I can not say the same about my time in Melbourne.

~~~
ACow_Adonis
I imagine there's a certain level of crime/transport where there's almost no
distinction between the two. The truth is Melbourne is a safe modern western
city, which is to say practically 0 or min() as far as cities go.

I've only moved to Melbourne 2 years ago.

I understand the transport thing compared to Tokyo, but again, I imagine there
a level where the scale tops out. Melbournians love to bitch about their
transport, and the train capacity isn't keeping up with the growth in the
burbs, but live within the inside of the tram network and you're basically set
and timetable-less. Plus we do have the free tram zone and all night transport
now.

Of course, I tell people there are two Melbournes. Zone 1: transport
everywhere, compact walking city. Zone 2: suburban sprawl, connected by single
train lines into the city and free ways.

Live in Zone 1 and you generally don't go to Zone 2. Live in Zone 2, and thank
god you don't have a Sydney commute our house prices :p

~~~
greggman
I'm not sure I agree about the crime or at least it doesn't match my
experience

I think part of the issue might be what crime brings up in your mind.

AFAICT in pretty much any "western" city (Paris, London, Brussels, Hamburg,
NYC, LA, SF) the odds of having something stolen are extremely high. In SF if
you leave something visible in your car overnight my experience is the odds
are greater than 1 in 2 that the next morning you'll find your car window has
been bashed in and the item/items stolen. In Paris if you look away from your
purse stuff will be stolen. In Brussels if you sit at a bench and put your bag
under the bench someone will reach under from the other side and steal your
bag.

So far in Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto, Singapore that doesn't seem to be the case.

So while the odds of me getting hurt in one city vs another might be low the
odds of me experiencing theft seem much higher in some of those top cities
than others.

I'd be curious to know how Australia's and Canada's cities do along that
dimension. Can you leave your laptop at a Starbucks unattended for an 10-60
mins and not have it stolen?

~~~
jabits
Your SF example is absurd. Half the cars with stuff in them at night are _not_
broken into. My experience in Bernal Heights is not like you describe. I agree
about Tokyo. On the other hand, here in Maui, where I live now, I had a pair
of flip-flops stolen during a 20 minute beach walk.

~~~
greggman
Maybe Bernal Heights is different but you walk down 18th next to Dolores park
and often see the piles of glass every 3-4 parking spots. Same on Folsom in
SOMA. Same on 11th. Same on Franklin. The same is also bad in LA but SF seems
worse.

But hey, you don't have to take my word for it

[http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/san-
fran...](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/san-francisco-
crime-policy/479880/)

------
smikhanov
It's very easy to recognize a bogus livable cities ranking: if it doesn't
include a single Swiss city in its Top 10, like the list above, look
elsewhere. Economist Intelligence Unit, a body that compiled the list above
tend to be heavily skewed towards Anglo-Saxon countries and doesn't get any
money for its lists as far as I know. This means that they can be very much
like Monocle and just include in the list the cities they themselves like
(Monocle constantly puts Copenhagen very highly in their lists). Fine for
them, as long as they don't sell the list for hard currency.

There _is_ a company though that sells their livable cities rankings for hard
currency, and this company is Mercer. Mercer has its own very systematic
methodology fo measuring livability and because of that multinational
companies use Mercer's lists to come up with salaries they pay for the same
job description in different countries. Mercer's list
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercer_Quality_of_Living_Surve...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercer_Quality_of_Living_Survey))
for several years in a row is topped with Vienna and only contains less that a
third of non-European cities in its top 30, which absolutely correctly
reflects the relatively low quality of life anywhere in the world outside of
developed parts of Europe.

~~~
uola
"It's very easy to recognize a bogus livable cities ranking: if it doesn't
include a single Swiss city in its Top 10, like the list above, look
elsewhere."

Zurich and Geneva ranked 10 and 12 last year. To not put those cities in the
top 10 seems reasonable. Being small and expensive usually reflects badly in
rankings.

------
theseadroid
Can't say for other cities, but Vancouver is quite liveable if you gathered
your wealth elsewhere. The median household salary is 22nd Canada wide in
2010[1]. The housing price is world renowned.

I wonder if there's a list for world's most liveable cities for young people.
Where technologies are rapidly being adopted by both the community and policy
makers, knowledgeable government, less presence of established
powers/influencers who prevent progress.

And how hard to create such a city from scratch?

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Median_household_incom...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Median_household_income_of_cities_in_Canada)

~~~
sandworm101
Agreed. Vancouver is only "liveable" if you are extremely established. Wages
are pathetic. Its a city full of investors and not much else. It isn't a place
for anyone young who doesn't have a steady trust income.

On the other hand, much of what makes Vancouver liveable has little to do with
the city and more to do with the province and country. Get out of Vancouver,
to Squamish, Chilliwack or even to Bowen and you can afford to work.

~~~
msie
Hmmm, lots of not-extremely-established people call Vancouver their home. I
really wonder how many people here are basing their opinions just on trendy
news pieces on Vancouver's housing. Pretty disappointing.

~~~
theseadroid
For sure. If they've been living here for some years. The housing crisis
wasn't this bad until maybe last 5 years. But it has prevented not only young
talents coming to the city, but also small-middle businesses flourishing. As
the list is published yearly, shouldn't it reflect up-to-date situations? And
Vancouver's renting market is going frenzy at the moment[1], is there a single
option left for young people to live here with peace of mind?

[1] [http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-
ren...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-rental-
market-bidding-war-1.3680027)

------
Johnny_Brahms
Well... I moved out of Stockholm because living in a big city means dealing
with lots of things that will just steal your lifetime. The commutes were
horrible, and housing was expensive. I now live outside a town of 120.000
people with big forrests nearby, and a 17 minute commute to work. Our house
cost one million SEK less than our 60m2 apartment.

I couldn't imagine living in a big city anymore. Just moving from a big city
gave me more than an hour less commutes, 200m to a big forrest (as in I could
easily walk a day in any direction without crossing a road worth being called
a road) and a 1500m2 garden where my dog and child can enjoy themselves.

Sure, my salary is a bit less, but so are my costs. My loans are lower and
cheaper, I pay much less for transportation and counting my commute I work one
hour less per day.

------
limeyy
Acquiring wealth is certainly a crucial attribute on making a city "livable",
and it's completely left out here.

Just because ISIS mentions a cities name, does not really mean it makes the
city less livable. This article isn't Economist worthy.

~~~
radicaldreamer
The more you know about any particular subject, you start to realize that the
Economist is not all that great and it really makes you question what they
know about things you might not know a lot about.

~~~
liw
The Economist is following mainstream journalism in general, then.

~~~
Quequau
sadly yes.

------
probably_wrong
From the survey's website:

> The latest findings of The Economist Intelligence Unit's Global Liveability
> Ranking – which provides scores for lifestyle challenges in 140 cities
> worldwide

140 cities is nothing when it comes to deciding "World's most liveable cities"
\- it's not even one city per country!

------
chirau
Being from Harare, it's good to know that 1) We were worth a survey 2) We have
overtaken Lagos, Algiers and Tripoli.

Though i think both are lies. Things are tough in Harare, but who knows, I
haven't been to the other 3.

~~~
venomsnake
The worst stable city is usually better than the best of the unstable. All the
other 3 there is low level civil war going on.

In Harare - if you do not cross zanu-pf you at least could try to make a
living.

------
jondubois
The liveable cities lists are never accurate. It's extremely subjective.
People have very different priorities when it comes to what city is 'ideal'
for them. You have to visit them to know for sure - A big part of it is that
people in different countries tend to have vastly different mentalities
(sometimes it's hard to put your finger on it) but it can affect the whole
experience of living in a particular city.

From that list, I've been to Melbourne, Perth and Vienna; Melbourne and Perth
were fine but they are nowhere near my favourite cities to live.

I will agree that Vienna is really nice though - It's clean, orderly, has a
good culture, people are very friendly, food is great, it's affordable
(especially accommodation) and public utilities are great.

~~~
collyw
I completely agree. Being able to escape the city and get to the mountains is
important for me, but that sort of thing is never taken into account. Cost of
living is often given as a reason, yet they usually fail to factor in the
level of wages.

------
kevindeasis
Since the main audience in HN are techies. I think if we put tech jobs and
startups as part of the equation, those rankings will change dramatically.

~~~
hartror
As a techie in Melbourne I can tell you I stand by my city being a great place
to live and work for techies.

~~~
ENGNR
Which companies in Melbourne do you think are the most interesting, from a
hacker point of view?

I know REA have a good engineering focus but there must be others

~~~
mafro
Carsales.com.au is mostly a PHP shop, if that floats your boat. REA is a ruby
shop.

There are plenty of other smaller companies doing interesting work there,
however!

Source: was living there 12 months ago

------
Rodeoclash
Melbourne's really liveable - if you own a house already. If you don't then
you can look forward to renting for the rest of your life.

~~~
tluyben2
It is nice here (as a visitor anyway) but I checked house prices and it is not
that bad depending where you want to live. Personally I like visiting cities
but would not want to live in them: for Melbourne, if I had to live here, I
would buy in Olinda and drive to the office. Then again I would never go 5
days a week to the office, more likely I would plan all meetings in one day
and work from home the rest.

~~~
daurnimator
Olinda is way too far out to make it into the city with any regularity.

After living in various locations all over Melbourne, I now have being within
10 mins walk of public transport as a MUST. (Now I have 2 tram stops almost on
my doorstep)

~~~
parr0t
Ah someone from my area - I commute into south bank everyday from Ferntree
Gully. I actually don't mind the train trip in. It's a bit further to a train
station from Olinda though (assuming that was how you travelled in).

~~~
daurnimator
There's a suprising number of tech people out in FG/UFG/Belgrave. At friend's
parties out that way there is always a significant number of people in IT.

In any case, my point was more about the importance of being close to public
transport: Ferntree Gully has a train station, while Olinda does not.

------
derefr
It'd be nice to re-calculate this chart with a sixth dimension added: median
income divided by cost-of-living.

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
That does not help at all unfortunately because cost of living is just too
different for different types of people. Eg: families vs single developers in
their twenties.

~~~
derefr
How is a family a "type of person"? Cost-of-living is per-capita.

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
Because two single programmers behave completely different than two
programmers that happen to be married and have children. Different taxation,
different activities, different emphasis of what is important and what is not.

I cannot stress enough how different my life was when I was single vs a
married family man.

~~~
derefr
Why do people constantly group "married" and "has children" into one change,
and then assume that it's being single that's the strange case? A two-income
household containing two roommates vs. a married couple vs. an unmarried
couple in a stable relationship don't look all that different economically.
Adding children is what causes all the rebudgeting and tax-breaks and
lifestyle changes. You can get away with just doing cost-of-living analysis
once for "median parent" and once for "median non-parent" without just getting
noise.

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
I just compared two cases. There are many more.

------
the_mitsuhiko
I can vouch for Vienna. It's an amazing city and it's getting more
international by the day. It's very affordable still and has a great public
transport system and airport.

Main downside are the Austrians there ;) But at 40% foreign born population
that is changing :D

~~~
Quequau
I live in Graz and prefer it over Vienna... though doubtless a portion of that
preference is enabled by the fact that Vienna exists :-)

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
Oh Graz is awesome and even with it being such a tiny place it's still
reachable for international people.

I think the problem that Graz has is that Austria is too small of a country to
support multiple large cities and Vienna overshadows it. Switzerland has a
similar problem but there is no city on the size of Vienna that would absorb
everything.

~~~
musha68k
Not only that, what often gets overlooked is that Vienna is the second largest
German speaking metro area in the world actually.

Graz is nice to visit though (also great tech schools in Styria in general)
and it's pretty close too so that's cool :)

------
slezyr
> Kiev, the only European city in the bottom ten, performs better for health
> care and education but has a low stability score due to Ukraine’s ongoing
> conflict with Russia.

What? What is "low stability"?

~~~
WillPostForFood
Risk of war with Russia.

~~~
lucaspiller
Can anyone in Kiev confirm whether this is what local people feel, or is this
just the way the west sees it?

~~~
dgudkov
I just returned from Kiev. There is a certain degree of uncertainty that local
people feel, but it's mostly related to weak local economy rather than the
war. It surprises me that The Economist rated the city so low -- as long as
you stay in its central part it's a very nice European city -- beautiful,
clean, with lots of cafes and restaurants and decent public transit.

------
musha68k
Relevant for the HN crowd - Vienna at #2 in this list will likely also get
much more interesting very soon as our new "Trudeau" just negotiated a
substantial startup initiative.

------
FreedomToCreate
Toronto and Vancouver both suffer from the same problem as SV. Housing is out
of control and if you are a person below 25, it really hard to lay any routes
and save some money at the same time. Toronto is an amazing city for young
people (I enjoy it more than SF), but when it comes to Tech jobs, salaries are
lagging, especially at the entry level.

------
andrewstuart
I live in Melbourne. Seems quite livable. It's fairly big at about 50 miles
across depending on how you measure it.

~~~
wavefunction
Can I measure it in miles?

------
limeyy
About the economist intelligence unit "We are outspoken in our views. Unlike
our sister company, The Economist newspaper, much of our work is bespoke for
clients and remains confidential. But we share the same fierce passion for
independence and integrity. Clients work with us because we are not afraid to
tell them what we really think. We never pander to internal agendas or work to
buttress some preconceived strategy. We have no vested interest in any
specific recommendation—we do not undertake follow-on work to help clients to
implement strategies or plan M&A. We just analyse the facts and present our
conclusions. We believe that our clients execute better strategies as a
result.

------
jandrewrogers
This is a confusing metric. If I compare two cities at the top of the list I
know well and have spent much time in, Vancouver and Calgary, to other cities
I know well, I have a difficult time explaining to myself why those are among
the most livable cities in the world. Vancouver is a lovely city, if you have
money. Calgary appeals to my mountain West upbringing, but it has most of the
downsides of mountain West cities in the US, which are not insignificant.

Those cities are not unlivable by any means but "most livable" seems like a
stretch. Obviously their measures are quite different than what some people
might assume.

~~~
erikpukinskis
Yeah, "livable" is inherently tied to some kind of value system. It's kind of
a useless metric unless they explain in detail their values. "Safety" and
"environment" mean totally different things to totally different people. This
would be much more interesting if they took, say, three different value
systems and did three rankings.

~~~
vacri
> _It 's kind of a useless metric unless they explain in detail their values_

It's a pity that the Economist didn't put a link right there in the first
paragraph about that!

~~~
orange_county
Yea they did but they also put it behind a link that requires registration.

Besides, the metric value changes depending on who you are and what kind of
income you can generate based on the job you can obtain and what you value the
most. This is why I never like articles claim to know what's best for
everyone.

------
ehnto
Happy to see Adelaide in there. It is a wonderful city.

Objectively I imagine Adelaide is actually the better city, for public
transport and costs and such.

But Melbourne is just way more interesting. A much richer history, density and
diversity of structures and services.

------
yitchelle
It's kinda interestig to read see this type of comparison, but it doesn't
really give a good picture for the families living there or someone looking to
shift into that city.

According to the footnote in chart, it only measures stablility,
infrastructure, education, health care and environment. Is this in the context
of a average family with an average income for that city? It's pretty vague.

I grew up in the southern part of suburban Melbourne before shifting to
Europe. It was quite a livable city for me, but to get started and to
establish yourself in Melbourne is very difficult.

------
ikeyany
I'm surprised Hamburg is the highest rated German city. I haven't spent much
time in the country, so maybe some natives can educate me. Köln, Stuttgart,
Dresden, and München were far more enjoyable.

~~~
Nutomic
I'm really surprised that Berlin isn't mentioned. Admittedly, I haven't spent
much time in other German cities, but Berlin should be the best in cost of
living and also in startups.

------
galfarragem
Economist is my favourite source of news but this ranking is completely BS.

~~~
imron
Nah, Melbourne ranked #1 seems spot on :-D

------
slavik81
I'm surprised Calgary didn't suffer in these rankings from its weakening
economy and rising crime rate. I mean, things are still pretty good, but
they're worse now than a year ago.

~~~
robotresearcher
Calgary's average December temperature is −6.8 °C. That's a challenge compared
to Melbourne or even Vancouver.

------
burakdede
Don't know other cities but Istanbul definitely deserves its place in less
liveable list.

------
MrGando
Where can one get the full list? I downloaded the article and it doesn't have
it...

~~~
fgandiya
Looks like you'll have to pay for it. The best I could find was this.

[http://pages.eiu.com/rs/783-XMC-194/images/Liveability_Augus...](http://pages.eiu.com/rs/783-XMC-194/images/Liveability_August2016.pdf?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWWpOaE5URmhOV0U0TURZMSIsInQiOiJxQ0NHQlIxdXptVmx2QVFCdCtuWHFCV1Vyb2xqRTdnWXBqalpCZFhYYUE2aFZhdXZIb0FzVVE2SWd4M0I5bXA2TjJyTm14azBwTEJKcjJSWFdnSUVvTWNDN1lZZjNZNW8yajdvMVhEb1lnVT0ifQ%3D%3D)

~~~
MrGando
Yeah, same here, sucks, interested about the situation in Bay Area from a more
'impartial' point of view.

------
serge2k
I find it odd they drop Sydney out of the top 10 due to terrorist threats but
keep Toronto and Hamburg.

~~~
simonswords82
What terrorist activity has occurred in Toronto?

~~~
serge2k
Few attempts I guess. I just figured in terms of being a target.

------
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------
BJanecke
I don't get how a city like Melbourne can score as highly as it does
considering the state of LGBT laws in that country. Surely this has to be
taken into consideration.

~~~
apapli
Because the laws are behind what the population thinks I'd suggest. Laws are
not always an accurate indication of what the majority of people currently
think, although in general this is probably true.

