
Netflix crackdown on border hoppers could kill some unblocking companies - empressplay
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/netflix-crackdown-unblocking-1.3487368
======
terryf
I realise that they're probably just covering their asses, but it really sucks
to live in a small country that none of the distributors care about.

The Estonian netflix catalogue is on the order of 500? titles... ridiculous
compared to the US catalogue. In the US you have "watch on amazon prime"
buttons in imdb. In Estonia, no such luck.

Essentially, there is _no legal way at all_ to watch the vast majority of
movies here. And people wonder why piracy happens a lot around here...

~~~
giarc
>no legal way at all to watch the vast majority of movies here.

You could buy them.

~~~
nommm-nommm
Most of the time you can't. You can't buy something that's explicitly and on
purpose not available for purchase in your country. That is the whole point.
Even if you were to find someone willing to import American DVDs to Estonia,
the movie studios have region code lockout codes on DVD players to prevent
that!

~~~
thaumasiotes
> Even if you were to find someone willing to import American DVDs to Estonia,
> the movie studios have region code lockout codes on DVD players to prevent
> that!

So use a computer to play your DVDs. Region lockout works on the honor system.

~~~
DanBC
This sub thread is about legal ways to watch movies.

People seem to be missing the fact that importing DVDs is not necessarily
legal; and turning your DVD player to region free is arguably not legal (under
the various "interfering with rights protections mechanisms" laws.

To you and me "buying the DVD from some other region" is legit, while "pirate
the movie" is less legit, but to the rights-holders there's not much
difference. See, for example, this submission which is talking about rights
holders asking Netflix to stop people buying content from a different country.

~~~
mirimir
Well then, if there are no legal ways to watch a movie, "pirating" is the only
option, right? What possibilities remain? Should people take vacations to
watch movies?

~~~
DanBC
My opinion is that people should make their own choices. If it were me I'd try
to buy the DVDs, but I'd also pirate the DVDs I had bought (for a backup) and
I'd consider pirating the DVDs that are not available to purchase.

But the industry has different ideas, and they are well funded and
influential. We see the results of that influence in international copyright
agreements and laws like DCMA.

See for example the Japanese games that have "NO RE-SALE" printed on the back
of the box. Japanese publishers pushed pretty hard to make second-hand sales
of games illegal. (I don't think that succeeded). It is (or was?) illegal to
rent games in Japan.

In the face of this kind of vigorous assertion of rights of IP holders it's
can be difficult to stick rigidly to the law.

~~~
mirimir
I just don't get it. If some film is unavailable in some region, piracy in
that region has no conceivable impact on sales. And so how can there be any
damages? Do you argue that piracy notwithstanding, people would be migrating
to places with better licensing deals?

~~~
DanBC
In this region: Movies are not available legally, and so people pirate them.
When those people come to HN to say why they pirate movies other people say
"just buy the DVD", or "just go without".

"Just buy the DVD" doesn't work for the reasons given; just go without is dumb
for the reasons you give.

I don't think I'm arguing for the position you think I'm arguing for.

~~~
mirimir
What are you arguing for?

------
reuven
I'm frustrated that Netflix is cracking down in this way. And yet, I can't say
that I'm surprised. They are trying to amass as much content as possible, and
doing so means that Netflix has to demonstrate that they're trying to enforce
the regional exclusivity agreements.

For me, as a consumer who has been using an unblocking system for more than
two years, and who would like to continue to see Amazon's content, I'm rooting
for the unblockers.

But I wonder whether the cat-and-mouse game between Netflix and unblocking
services is almost inevitably in Netflix's favor, at least as things currently
run.

Which leads me to ask if a "cloud VPN appliance" SaaS could work, technically
and/or as a business: Customers would click to indicate the country where they
want to have a VPN server hosted. The appliance would use Digital Ocean, or
some other hosting facility with cheap machines that can be created and
destroyed via an API. For a $5/month DO server, charge $15/month. Have the
appliance update its software, and/or relocate to another hosting system or IP
address, as Netflix detects and blocks that machine.

I have to assume that it would be harder for Netflix to block thousands of
such privately used VPN machines than blocks of AWS servers being used for
such services.

But yeah, it's unfortunate that because of agreements between movie studios
and distribution firms in each country, individuals have to play these sorts
of games.

~~~
colinbartlett
Others have reported Netflix blocking IP ranges owned by cloud hosting
companies. So this solution might not work. What if it was a peer-to-peer
service? Whereby the ultimate exit point was the home internet connection of
another subscriber?

~~~
pille
I think most people's asymmetric bandwidth rates would get in the way of a p2p
solution being usable.

Maybe if there were some way to break the stream up into individual media
files, and then you could download one identical file from lots of different
users at the same time.

~~~
jmiserez
BitTorrent?

~~~
DasIch
BitTorrent works because uploaders only ever upload a small piece of the file.
This works well for downloads but not at all for streaming.

------
Udo
The ability for and dedication to self sabotage is really astonishing with
these old media companies (in this case channeled through Netflix). The sad
thing is this affects only people who are still somehow determined to actually
buy their content instead of straight-up pirating it.

~~~
e40
It is likely a requirement of some contract they have with content producers,
who have Netflix over a barrel. I can't see them just deciding to do this all
on their own.

~~~
Udo
"[...] with these old media companies (in this case channeled through Netflix)
[...]"

------
Mandatum
This is whack-a-mole with VPN's.

We'll start to see VPN companies setup auto-rotating IPv6-only networks
registered to residential addresses and pseudonyms shortly (if they haven't
already) with 2-3 customers per/IP.

VPN's will cater and advertise as "for Netflix" and then the "fight" will
shift to copyright takedowns and proxy-lawsuits.

If Netflix continues to crack down and push harder you'll see a lot more false
positives/user complaints about being blocked than we currently do.

I sincerely hope they start using their weight to push back.

~~~
mirimir
> A residential vpn doesn’t use a standard data center like traditional vpn
> services do. A residential vpn service uses the same local internet service
> providers that offer dsl and cable to home users. This type of service is
> very unusual in the vpn arena because normal providers of vpn services do
> not offer this type of service. It is generally unheard of in the vpn world.

> IAPS Security Services, LLC. has gone outside the normal channels and has
> contracted directly with residential internet service providers to make this
> type of service possible.

[https://www.intl-alliance.com/store/cart.php?gid=15](https://www.intl-
alliance.com/store/cart.php?gid=15)

I have no idea whether or not this is legitimate. Maybe this is another Hola
scam. Or worse.

Edit: See [https://www.lowendtalk.com/discussion/27897/vpn-service-
that...](https://www.lowendtalk.com/discussion/27897/vpn-service-that-
provides-ip-s-that-look-like-a-residential-isp) for amusing discussion.

Edit2: OK, I get it. It's whois games. See [http://www.hacker10.com/other-
computing/review-scam-vpn-prov...](http://www.hacker10.com/other-
computing/review-scam-vpn-provider-iaps-intl-alliance/) Easy to detect :(

------
Mikeb85
While everyone's busy blaming Netflix, the reality is they're just covering
their own asses, complying with the content laws of the jurisdictions in which
they're operating.

~~~
DrJokepu
This is not really about compliance. They license their content from their
media partners and these licensing agreements state in which territories they
are allowed to use the licensed content. Their media partners are
contractually requiring them to take steps to block the usage of their content
outside the licensed territories.

Keep in mind that the party who has licensed Netflix a production to be used
in e.g. the US might not even have the rights to the same production in e.g.
the UK.

~~~
amorphid
Licensing can get really lame. Amazon has (or at least had) seasons 1, 2, and
4 of a show I watched. I had to go elsewhere to find season 3. I never went
back for season 4.

------
edandersen
I setup a VPN on a private AWS EC2 instance in Tokyo. Netflix still detected
it. They are not messing around.

~~~
andor
They didn't detect your VPN connection, they simply block AWS IP ranges.

------
lauritz
Out of sheer curiosity: Does anyone know/suspect if Netflix is actually using
techniques in addition to blocking IPs of known proxy/vpn/unblocking services?
Because I would imagine that is a bit like fighting a hydra, very labor- and
cost-intensive, yet they are getting excellent results (apparently, still, the
sample of people who complain and thus get media coverage is pretty biased).

Is anyone with a 'homegrown' vpn tunnel experiencing issues? I could also
think of a solution involving cookies/fingerprinting that detects if someone's
geolocation moves around quicker and more often than is physically possible.

I'm sure the technology is under tight wraps, and I'm also sure that other
companies will be dying to license this from Netflix if they get it right,
even if it's just a lengthy list of IPs (e.g. the BBC for iPlayer).

~~~
cheez
It's not super hard..

Customer has an address in country X, they're accessing from country X and Y
in the same day. Probably block.

~~~
tschuy
I'm currently ueing my family's account while abroad in France. Should I get
blocked?

~~~
mytochar
DVDs used to be region-locked, so probably.

Not the answer you wanted, not the answer that seems fair, but probably the
technically right answer right now, until this situation changes.

~~~
mattmanser
The EU were looking at abolishing this as against free trade, much like they
are waging war on roaming charges within the EU.

They were talking about it a year or two ago, not sure what has happened since
then as different countries in the EU have different censorship so it's not
that simple (e.g. games in Germany are usually less gore).

This is the only thing I can find about it, but I'm sure it was reported on
here on better known sources:

[http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2015/03/30/european-
commission-l...](http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2015/03/30/european-commission-
looking-to-remove-digital-region-locking-within-eu/)

~~~
bazzargh
From the european commission itself:

 _What does the Commission plan to do about geo-blocking?_

 _Addressing unjustified geo-blocking will give more choice of products and
services for consumers at lower prices. The Commission is planning to make
legislative proposals in the first half of 2016 to end unjustified geo-
blocking. Action could include a targeted change to the e-commerce framework,
and to the framework set out by Article 20 of the Services Directive (on non-
discrimination of recipients of services). As a result, traders will have only
limited possibilities to deny access to online services.In parallel to
legislative proposals, the Commission today launched a Competition Sector
Inquiry to analyse the application of competition law in this area (press
release and factsheet)_

[http://europa.eu/rapid/press-
release_MEMO-15-4920_en.htm](http://europa.eu/rapid/press-
release_MEMO-15-4920_en.htm)

There's lots to this behind that link, and at the digital single market site
([https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en](https://ec.europa.eu/digital-
single-market/en)) but it seems like some DSM legislation will be proposed
later this year, but not all of it (since the eCommerce report isn't scheduled
to be completed until 2017)

------
SeanDav
Netflix may well win this, but then everyone just goes pirate and Netflix
loses masses of subscribers. These companies just do not get it....

~~~
erkkie
Netflix "gets it" very well, they have to tiptoe between satisfying their
content providers with plausible-enough looking action and at the same time
trying to not alienate their end-users. They probably know the exact numbers
of their chosen paths and have chosen optimally (for now).

------
pstrateman
I closed my Netflix account because of this.

They blocked a VPS which is used by me and only me entirely from within the
US.

------
dorfsmay
I seriously don't understand what the movie companies are trying to do. People
who think going to the cinema is special and add something to the experience
already go to the cinema. For the rest of us, we see it on Netflix or Amazon
or whatever or we will either not see it or pirate it.

~~~
L-four
Most of the time another company has a exclusive license for the region.

~~~
josteink
So the movie companies are making deals they know 1. goes against everything
the market wants and 2. will promote piracy.

And then they complain about piracy. Cry me a river. Seriously.

------
nicolas_t
For now, the few times I've used it with a vpn it still worked fine. The day
when Netflix blocks me completely, I will cancel my subscription

~~~
dorfsmay
Same here. The catalog in Canada isn't worth it. Once the proxy companies
lose, I'll cancel Netflix. No I will not go to the cinema, I will not buy the
DVDs. The media company will just lose the revenue from me and people similar
to me for those movies.

------
bambax
I live in France and have been subscribed to Netflix for many years, with a
fake US address (but a French debit card). I access Netflix over a VPN
provider.

When Netflix arrived in France I was able to access Netflix without VPN from
France, with a different catalog, but retained the access to the US catalog
via VPN (without doing anything else: same account, same browser, same session
even).

I have seen no change since this move was announced, and therefore doubt if
it's real??

~~~
cr1895
>I have seen no change since this move was announced, and therefore doubt if
it's real??

Are you doubting that they're blocking users who access through a VPN? They
certainly are. Maybe your VPN hasn't been blacklisted, but that's not to say
it won't be in the future.

~~~
bambax
My VPN is very mainstream (I'd rather not name it, though, just in case) so it
seems unlikely it's not blocked when others are.

The other explanation would be that blocking doesn't apply to "US customers"
but only to customers with a non-US physical address?

~~~
cr1895
As far as Netflix is concerned, I'm a US customer with a US address and I'm
still blocked from using the US site.

That also doesn't hold water when US-residing customers are blocked from using
a US VPN simply to prevent their scummy ISP from throttling Netflix.

------
jawngee
I'm in Vietnam and unblock-us has been flawless through this whole thing.
Except for PayPal cancelling their account.

------
frik
I just buy DVDs/Blue-rays. That way I own the medium, can watch it any time at
superior quality (video + audio) and get some bonus content (behind the scene,
interviews, deleted scenes, etc.) too. And I watch amateur short clips on
YouTube. It's amazing how short sighted average joes are.

~~~
iwwr
You also get unskippable content and a relatively perishable medium that's
difficult to back-up. And region blocking.

~~~
frik
Really? Tell me more about that.

Btw. I can play some 1983 audio CDs just fine, multimedia CD-ROMs from 1990
and DVDs from 1996. Neither a hard disk nor flash-drive nor an internet
service will last that long. Triva: Did you know MySpace.com used to be a
online storage service (think of DropBox) during the dot-com bubble, it
resurfaced as social media website years later, and years later it rebooted as
social media website again (with little success) and you know both first two
iterations of content are lost forever. Welcome to reality.

The first new 4K _Ultra HD Blu-ray_ (max 100 GB) just came out on March 1th.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
> _I can play some 1983 audio CDs just fine_

"Some" is not acceptable for preservation.

> _Btw. I can play some 1983 audio CDs just fine, multimedia CD-ROMs from 1990
> and DVDs from 1996. Neither a hard disk nor flash-drive nor an internet
> service will last that long._

A hard drive is much easier to back up and transfer to fresh storage than a
stack of CDs.

~~~
seanp2k2
Did these ever materialize? [http://www.pcworld.com/article/2106260/sony-
panasonic-develo...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/2106260/sony-panasonic-
develop-300gb-optical-discs-for-enterprise-storage.html)

Edit: yes, looks like Verbatim (tbh the only company I'd trust to manufacture
these aside from TDK or Sony) makes M-Disc in 25, 50, and 100GB:
[http://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-Disc-BDXL-
Jewel-98912/dp/B011...](http://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-Disc-BDXL-
Jewel-98912/dp/B011PZALWA?th=1&psc=1)

$70 for 25x25GB archival discs is pretty reasonable. Almost 9GB per dollar.
The 100GB discs are ~5.8GB per dollar, but if taking up 1/4th the space and
1/4 the disc-swapping is worth it, those could be a good option ($425 for
25x100GB)

------
unbelievr
While I've not been using VPNs for this, and can see why this sucks for a lot
of consumers, I can't really feel sad for any unblocking companies that die
over this. They were providing a service that were strictly against the TOS of
Netflix, akin to creating cheats/bots for online video games. They had to know
that this could come to an end.

It's also very clear that Netflix didn't want this, and that it was forced to
make this move. (Couldn't find the exact quote, but newspapers have reported
this).

The availability is quite sad now, though. Looking at uNoGS[0] and gk2[1], you
can quickly see the disparity. USA pays $7.99 to access 5649 videos. Germany
pays ~$9 to access 1412. Scandinavia (little to no dubbing) pays ~$9.5 to
access 2038 videos. Most countries have _half_ the content of the US, but pay
above US prices on average.

So for some time now, EU has basically been subsidizing Netflix for America
and Friends. I really hope that our licensing laws will get straightened out
soon, although I can't see the movie business wanting to get rid of the
middle-man businesses anytime soon. It generates a huge amount of cash.

[0] [http://unogs.com/countrydetail/](http://unogs.com/countrydetail/)

[1] [http://gk2.sk/netflix-content-by-country/](http://gk2.sk/netflix-content-
by-country/)

~~~
yeldarb
At least part of that price difference is the EU VAT tax, no? Isn't it
something like 15%

------
fr222
As much as this looks like a result of Netflix attempting to cover their asses
with content licensing, the story going around is that this is actually a
result of Netflix's freedom and responsibility doctrine. Apparently some
asshole engineer internally said he'd be willing to build a proxy blocker, but
only if he could do it right.

~~~
bryanrasmussen
is he an asshole because he was willing, only willing if he could do it right,
because he is an engineer, or some other reason?

------
korginator
I cancelled my netflix account last week because they cracked down on both my
VPN providers. In my country, we legally get around 12-13% of the shows
available on the US Netflix.

Paying customers get shafted, and the mega-corps wonder why piracy is rampant.

------
nwmcsween
So netflix has gone full circle, people want to move away from cable companies
because price/content is crap. Netflix is killing off region hopping thus
making price/content crap. Long live piracy

------
dewiz
Someone should build a p2p service to share bandwidth and streaming content

------
kazinator
Internet-based companies want borders when it benefits them, and want the
network to be without borders or geographic locations when _that_ benefits
them.

~~~
icebraining
Actually, the Internet-based company (Netflix) probably doesn't want this, as
they'll lose money. The media companies want this, and Netflix has to deliver
if they want to keep their distribution rights.

