
City of Munich Considers Switching Back From Linux to Windows (In German) - thebear
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/muenchner-stadtverwaltung-von-microsoft-zu-linux-und-zurueck-1.2090611
======
thebear
Very brief summary of the article:

\- Second Mayor Josef Schmid (CSU, conservative): "Every department I talk to
reports user complaints. Our employees are suffering. The original decision to
switch to Linux was politically motivated. We feel that Linux is not cheaper
for us, because it requires a lot of software development. We're missing a
program to handle email, calendar, and contacts in one place. The city will
get an opinion from an independent panel of experts."

\- First Mayor Dieter Reiter (SPD, social democrat): "Linux software sometimes
trails behind Windows software."

\- Sabine Nallinger (Green Party): "Data exchange with government agencies
outside of Munich does not work well."

~~~
wyager
Who cares if they can't do x, y, and z in the same program? That's just an
arbitrary, unimportant feature they happen to be used to. Personally, I like
having separate apps for separate tasks.

It sounds like they're just making up variations of "we don't like doing
things except the exact way we learned it".

~~~
darklajid
Your preferences aren't relevant. These people are not working in IT (for the
most part). They would prefer

\- something they know

\- something that works with the world

And while we can talk about the benefits of the Linux environment/free
software and being independent all day, that is absolutely irrelevant for the
administrative workers in they day to day jobs. Derision isn't helping here,
they're just wanting an easy way to do their job - and arguably
Outlook/Exchange is one of the weaker spots if you're thinking of OSS
replacements (vs. LibreOffice for Office stuff, for example, which is
different but comparable. A comparable mail solution is missing in my
opinion).

~~~
wyager
>Your preferences aren't relevant.

Thank you, I'm aware. The point is that neither are the preferences of
whichever random government person they're quoting. There is no issue with
Linux here; the issue is that the people complaining about Linux are too
inflexible to deal with a slight change in process.

~~~
darklajid
Actually _those_ are relevant. You are judging from the side (just like me).
Those people have to work with whatever their environment provides.

Belittling their issues is not very helpful.

------
darklajid
While that newspaper has a decent reputation, that article is low on
information and contains a lot of crap. One statement states that it took ages
to provide a business mobile, because "first an external mail server needed to
be provided". That's not Linux related, that's random whining from a non-
technical guy..

(The following argument, complaining about a missing alternative to Outlook
might have some merit, alternatives exist but aren't quite there yet imo)

------
pgeorgi
Old news. The city council defends the LiMux system against the mayors:
[http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Linux-in-Muenchen-
Stadtrat-...](http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Linux-in-Muenchen-Stadtrat-
verteidigt-LiMux-gegen-Buergermeister-2262506.html) (mid-july)

------
mqsiuser
Holy cow, Linux gained so much and Windows lost so much since they switched
(in 2004). That would be so wrong to go for Windows (in 2014).

Disclaimer: I am from Germany

------
allegory
I can understand this to a degree.

I switched about 6 months ago from a windows machine to a Mac and dumped my
(broken) Lumia for a second hand iPhone 4S. I went from exchange to dovecot
IMAP for email with no calendar or contact implementation all hosted by me on
a Linux box on Linode. I used Mail, iCalendar and address book.

About 2 weeks after setting that up I got pissed off with it as managing
contacts and calendars was messy to say the least so I did some research and
for a CalDAV and CardDAV server together. This never worked properly and was a
bastard to integrate and manage.

So I said screw all this shit, moved it all to Google Apps laboriously and
bought a Moto G phone. Now someone sends me an ICS file, I can't add it to my
calendar as nothing opens ICS files on the device, I keep losing contacts and
everything wants my contact list. Not only that, every attachment I was sent
means I had to upload the thing to Google docs and convert it before I could
open it in sheets/docs.

So here I sit this evening with my broken Lumia 820 and a Torx T4 replacing
the screen and a fresh Office 365 account.

That was the last thing that _works properly_ for me. I imagine they'v gone
through the same hell.

Whilst I understand that not all workflows are like that and this is an
anecdote, I appreciate what compatibity does for people and why ecosystems are
persistent.

------
SiVal
There is an infrastructure beyond the usual technical sort, an infrastructure
of skills, habits, and assumptions. Windows matches this infrastructure
extremely well, because this infrastructure was almost entirely built on
Windows over the past 30 years.

People have grown accustomed to Windows, the Windows version of Office, and
domain-specific custom apps that only run on Windows.

Even Mac users struggle to integrate into this infrastructure, and that
difficulty, plus the higher cost of Macs, is why you rarely hear a city or
government agency declaring it is going all Mac.

For (desktop) Linux, the situation is even worse. Unlike Mac, Linux isn't
usually pre-installed, so you never seem to get things working right. Unlike
Mac, there is no version--not even an old version--of MS-Office.

The flip side of Linux's freedom to build anything you need is that you almost
_have_ to build everything you need, beyond the browser.

Three years ago I was struggling to deal with my kids' (Silicon Valley) school
system, because teachers would always send me important information in the
form of MS-Word docs, and I no longer owned a copy of Office. By last year,
almost all of them had switched to Google docs, and the problem is almost
gone.

What I expect to happen over the next decade is that the
skill/habit/assumption infrastructure will turn away from desktop Windows
toward cloud services usable through any browser from any platform (desktop,
phone, tablet, wall screen, wearable....) Munich might need some new Windows
machines during the transition, but they should probably also work on a
transition to online services at the same time, after which desktop Linux will
be more practical than it has been in the past.

~~~
moepstar
Shifting such important and secretive things like documents to the cloud - and
even an cloud of which you have no control over - will not (and probably not
ever) be possible within a government institution.

------
danmaz74
It would be interesting to understand what the complainss from users actually
are. The only actual problem they talk about is data exchange with the
"outside world" \- which can be big enough, but is no fault of Linux.

~~~
nextw33k
Its probably the most pertinent point. In truth they can only be talking about
OpenOffice/LibreOffice file format compatibility with MS Office.

Any other EDI systems would operate at the top of the software stack.

------
ausjke
"We're missing a program to handle email, calendar, and contacts in one
place." \---I, for one, have also been looking for a nice solution here after
trying some options.

~~~
pera
What about Thunderbird+Lightning? I use that even when I have to use Windows.

~~~
darklajid
Not even close (I'd wish, I used to be a zealot and STILL run Linux, working
for a Microsoft based shop).

That's only talking client and even there it falls short.

Ignoring that users are happy with one thing for everything
mail/contacts/calendar/tasks: What's the editor like in TB (I know, playing
devil's advocate)? Auto correction? Can you easily embed weird content and
expect it to work on the other side (drag stuff from Excel..)? It sucks, but
that's what happens day in and day out.

And you ignore the server side. AD is really not that bad. Better than most
'virtual users on postfix' setups, if you go beyond a family or tiny team. Now
you need the other server features. Calendar (w/ sharing, rights management ->
AD?). Decent sync and push (IMAP IDLE is the closest you might get, I guess)
for mobile clients. Delegation (i.e. 'You can write in my name') and out of
office replies that don't require Joe User to write sieve scripts.

I run my own setup and I am NO fan of Outlook/Exchange, but trying to replace
what they do with a random selection of OSS tools will probably fail (and
hence they couldn't do it in Munich).

------
gus_massa
Autotranslation:
[https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A...](https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sueddeutsche.de%2Fmuenchen%2Fmuenchner-
stadtverwaltung-von-microsoft-zu-linux-und-zurueck-1.2090611)

------
tormeh
Looks like the problem is primarily lack of Outlook and Office. There's
nothing the Linux community can do about that. There's just not enough money
around to throw at the problem. FOSS may be a global optimum, but the
Microsoft ecosystem is a local one which you can't hill-climb away from.

------
fidz
Related HN Story, 3 months ago "How Munich switched 15,000 PCs from Windows to
Linux":
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7720219](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7720219)

------
dang
Hacker News is an English-language site. This is not to disparage content in
other languages; it's just what HN is. Posts not in English typically get
demoted.

~~~
gus_massa
I always had this doubt. What to do with interesting original content that is
not in English and don't have an official translation? Submit the original
(not English) site? Submit an autotranslation?

The advantage of the first option is it preserves the original site name, and
prevents dupes. The advantage of the second option is that most of the user
here can read English and perhaps other language, but the common denominator
is English.

~~~
dang
I'm afraid we don't have a good answer to that. Autotranslation isn't good
enough yet, though it's obviously better than it was.

------
Htsthbjig
Translation:

MS offered Munich Windows completely free, or even offered to pay for the
transition.

MS probably also offered the decision makers free travel around the world,
free laptops and other gear, and some under the table money for being
"convinced". This was done in my University so I could only imagine what will
be with a big city like this.

The decision makers argument that given that Windows is "free"(first dose s
free until you are hooked) and Linux takes development money (to German
developers)then it is a better decision to just switch.

It is quite significant that there is so many Linux mini distros in
government, instead of uniting and solving the general problems Linux have on
a State or even multi State.

E.g Solving the program to handle mail,calendar and contacts is common for
Spain, French, German and UK gobertment. Why can't they work together to solve
it?

~~~
thebear
I am not sure why this post begins with the header "Translation:". It is not a
translation of the article.

~~~
jasode
If your comment is not a whoosh, gp is not using " _translation_ " as "
_language X to language Y_ " but in the sense of " _said vs unsaid_ ". This
usage of "translation" is a rhetorical device often to express satire or
cynicism.

Example: _" The department will thoroughly investigate the police officers'
fatal shooting of the unarmed teenager to ensure justice is upheld."_

TRANSLATION: _" The police officers will get paid leave, possibly a vacation
to Hawaii to escape the media spotlight, and then get a promotion in rank."_

That said, whether gp's "translation" adds any insight is questionable.

~~~
teach
But it is quite confusing to use that idiom when the original article is in a
language most HNers don't speak.

An actual translation from German to English is what's expected, and would
have been a lot more useful.

~~~
raldi
And indeed, I suspect that many of the comment's upvoters did so on the
assumption it was a non-editorialized German -> English translation of the
article.

------
a3voices
Windows is a more user friendly operating system than Linux. Obviously they
should have stuck with Windows all along.

~~~
lutusp
> Windows is a more user friendly operating system than Linux.

As a Linux advocate, I hate admitting that this is correct. One reason is that
the Linux desktop experience is too fragmented and has too many competing
players. Windows avoids this by being one company with one goal.

> Obviously they should have stuck with Windows all along.

This may be true in hindsight, but it wasn't obvious at the planning stage. In
principle, Linux is a less expensive way to run a large enterprise. But only
in principle, it seems.

Linux will succeed as a desktop environment only when (and if) its various
factions agree on a single model and a single goal.

~~~
chestnut-tree
_" Linux will succeed as a desktop environment only when (and if) its various
factions agree on a single model and a single goal."_

Many Linux users probably don't want to see a single model. They like the
choice of being able to choose from different distributions and their own
desktop model.

Ubuntu is probably the closest to being a consistent desktop environment and
look how much grief they get from some Linux users over their UX choices. The
open source model works for software, but it can't work for UX or design (at
least I'm not convinced it can) because you can't design by commitee - any yet
everyone wants a say in the UX.

Would it have been better for Munich to have specified open document or data
formats rather than the choice of software? This is what the UK government has
recently done [1]. The choice of software is up to the individual departments
as long as the software can read or create the open formats etc. At least this
gives you the choice of switching to dfferent software without being tied to a
single vendor's closed-sorce document format.

[1] [http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-
enterprise/2014/07/hug...](http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-
enterprise/2014/07/huge-win-for-odf-lets-not-mess-it-up/index.htm)

~~~
lutusp
> Many Linux users probably don't want to see a single model. They like the
> choice of being able to choose from different distributions and their own
> desktop model.

Yes, true, but it would be nice to see more consensus for a single default
desktop for new users. I guess that's Gnome as things stand, but Gnome has
some serious usability issues and would seem very strange to someone coming
over from Windows. On that topic, Windows 8 seems strange from someone coming
over from Windows too. :)

> Ubuntu is probably the closest to being a consistent desktop environment ...

Well, sort of, by their advocacy of Gnome, but I was thinking of KDE versus
Gnome and a handful of other desktop environment choices.

> Would it have been better for Munich to have specified open document or data
> formats rather than the choice of software?

That might have been a smarter course to take. It leaves the implementation up
to individual departments and makes the Linux versus Windows issue less
important than the end result, which is portable documents.

Naturally, once the open document format issue heated up, Microsoft tried to
create their own "open" document, but one that was actually proprietary, in a
time-tested Microsoft strategy.

