
Pagers, faxes and cheques: Things that might seem obsolete, but aren't - Kaibeezy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-49906336
======
__MatrixMan__
Where I work we move a lot of money around via ACH (which might as well be via
cheque). We treat the account number as a secret and encrypt it because here
in the US the extent to which a bank needs to authenticate the source of an
ACH transaction is largely left to the discretion of that bank.

We're integrating with a company in Germany that is confused by our request
for their public key (so we can encrypt the account numbers on capture for
their eyes only). As it turns out, in Germany it's common to share your
account number on your web site so that your customers can more easily pay
you. They have an authentication step that is separate from the account
number.

This of course makes our system look pretty silly. We give account numbers to
everybody we write a cheque to, but then treat them like private keys in other
contexts.

Maybe this is to be expected, as ACH and SEPA (which is the equivalent-ish
system in the EU) are separate systems after all, but further research shows
that there are other regional differences within the SEPA network re: whether
the account number is a secret.

If we had a competitor trying to do the same thing with a system where
authentication and addressing were both separate and part of the protocol
(e.g. any cryptocurrency), they'd be done by now and making money. We've been
at this for more than a year and we're getting nowhere.

The moral of this story is that cheques may not be obsolete yet, but the
protocol that backs them will probably soon be. It has fundamental flaws that
open the door for fraud and incur other overhead costs as well. Once there is
a viable competitor it doesn't stand a chance.

~~~
clintonb
ACH will eventually be replaced by real time payments (RTP)[1]

[1] [https://www.theclearinghouse.org/payment-
systems/rtp](https://www.theclearinghouse.org/payment-systems/rtp)

~~~
Gunax
In the finance world 'eventually' is a long time.

This is an industry that I am sure will 'eventually' eliminate mainframes from
its tech stack.

My guess is that ACH systems will be maintained for a few decades as a legacy
payment rail with countless promises of phasing it 'inn the next five years'.

------
Scoundreller
As I’ve said before: pagers are great: batteries last months. Easy to pass
around and know when you’re the one on-call.

Limited teaching required to understand their use.

Can take a beating.

Work well in disaster scenarios because its network is far less fragile than
the cellular network’s.

They don’t leak your location.

Their signal penetrates extremely well.

They make sure the person on-call doesn’t go too far from where they’re
supposed to be on-call when they’re required to be within x km of base.

~~~
BlackFingolfin
But they have major drawbacks, too. Like: no encryption and authentication.
And that means that e.g. critical medical data about a lot of people can be
trivially snooped from the airwaves. This is not just hypothetical, it really
works, and you can find multiple newspaper articles and reports online on this
subject by googling a bit.

Worse, it is trivial to tamper with this and insert forged pager messages. A
lot of harm could be done with this, possibly even leading to death of
patients.

~~~
mattr47
What medical data is sent via pages? All the times I've used them it is a
simple code, and possibly a location.

~~~
cheeseprocedure
A recent Canadian example:

> The data being broadcast includes the patients name, age, gender marker,
> diagnosis, their attending doctor and room number. Other broadcasts
> regarding medical tests such as x-rays are often associated with a patients
> last name or medical number, exposing their progression through hospital
> departments.

[https://openprivacy.ca/blog/2019/09/09/open-privacy-
discover...](https://openprivacy.ca/blog/2019/09/09/open-privacy-discovers-
vancouver-patient-medical-data-breach/)

~~~
Scoundreller
So don't include information that isn't necessary. rm name/age/gender.

If it's the organization's in-house medical number, that should be okay. It's
literally a random identifier number. Or better yet, use a visit number, test
number or result number to avoid linking them together.

------
clintonb
Checks will be around for a while, especially for B2B transactions in the US.
Checks are the easiest way to move a large amount of money with minimal fees.
Accounts payable departments already have their workflows setup to use checks.
Also, banks don't make it easy to do transfers. ACH and wire transfers can
take as little as 24 hours, but some banks don't expose this functionality on
the web to make the transfers easy to initiate.

The Federal Reserve conducts a triennial payments study to track the number
and value of non-cash payments made by U.S. consumers and businesses. The 2017
annual supplement[0] reports that checks account for approximately 17.9
billion payments worth an estimated $29 trillion dollars, give or take a few
million. Unsurprisingly, these numbers are trending down over time; however,
according to a 2016 survey published by the Association for Financial
Professionals [1], 51% of B2B payments are still made with checks.

[0]
[https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/2017-December-...](https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/2017-December-
The-Federal-Reserve-Payments-
Study.htm#xtable1-growthratesbypaymenttype2015-30039a65) [1] (fee login
required) [https://www.afponline.org/publications-data-
tools/reports/gu...](https://www.afponline.org/publications-data-
tools/reports/guides/afp-payments/Detail/not-going-anywhere-why-checks-still-
matter/)

~~~
pintxo
How can a paper check be the easiest and cheap option?

Doing the same transfer of money via electronic means should be significantly
cheaper to execute. And it should be cheaper for all participants. No paper to
print, transfer, read, process, send to the bank (physically!).

Honest question, why do Banks in the US do not replace this process with
something cheaper?

~~~
Spooky23
Write a check, pop it in the mail. You’re done.

Integrating with some ERP or payment system is a pain in the ass, especially
for a one time or infrequent payment.

~~~
pintxo
So in Germany you can, since the 80, probably also longer, fill out a small
(standardized) form, bring it to your bank (possibly by mail) and they will
transfer amount x from your account to the recipients.

Since the 90, this can be done electronically, so you don’t need anything
physical.

This is now further harmonized by SEPA all across Europe. Where apparently
something similar existed in most countries.

I find it difficult to see the benefit of checks over the above process.

~~~
Spooky23
I totally agree, but we don’t have such a system in the US, and the
alternatives being proposed today are all inferior. Checks are still easier.

~~~
pintxo
But why? What’s the reason this has been solved differently in the US and in
the EU, when pretty much everyone agrees that the EU solution a) works and b)
is probably cheaper? Or asked differently, why does something like the EU
system not work in the US?

------
lostcolony
7.1 cheques per household? I understand a rent check, but what are those
others? Or, since that's an average, is it that most households write just
one, but then enough elderly people are writing checks at the store (that I
invariably am stuck behind) that it inflates the average?

~~~
5555624
My gas bill. Paying them electronically involves a third-party, which charges
a fee. It's easier for me to simply write a check. That's 12 checks a year.

The same goes for my real estate taxes, which have a 2.2% convenience fee, as
well as a transaction fee. That's four checks a year.

------
mauvehaus
Sincere question about cheques: How do people in the UK (or other cheque-less
places) deal with the transfer of large amounts of money between private or
nearly private parties?

I own a small business and have worked for small businesses, and it's my
experience that checks make the world go around in the woodworking field.

All of the shops I've worked for have paid me by check - nobody wants to screw
around setting up direct deposit for one or two employees.

Several of them pay suppliers by check; suppliers don't want to take the hit
on credit card fees.

And all of them take checks for payment from customers regularly (and I do
to), for the same reason, among others.

The only downsides I see to cheques is that they're insecure and that there
might be insufficient funds. If you're dealing with a trusted party (or at
least somebody you reasonably believe to be acting in good faith), those are
basically non-issues.

The upsides are pretty extensive:

1) They don't require carrying around large amounts of cash

2) They don't require third party cooperation (at least to write)

3) They don't require internet access

4) They don't require any sort of set-up, which reduces the friction for one-
time or infrequent transfers.

5) There's basically no fee for the volume we use them in [0] except for
buying the cheques.

6) If a payer does bounce a check (unintentionally) the payee can insist on a
more guaranteed form of payment in the future. The friction is added to the
party that screwed up in the first place.

Edited for formatting and to add:

All of this requires an informal web of trust. I've definitely used cash for
one-time large transactions with people I don't have in my network. I've sold
a car for cash to a random private person and bought a bicycle with cash from
a different random private person, for instance.

[0] My business checking allows enough free transactions a month that I should
be covered for a while; if I start exceeding that, I probably won't be super-
worried about the cost of the fees)

[1] A buddy worked at a cabinet shop whose plywood supplier wouldn't take
their checks. They switched to counter checks or money orders, or something
else that guaranteed sufficient funds at the time of issuance. Hypothetically
they could have gone to another supplier. In practice, finding a good supplier
is a lot of effort, there aren't many in the first place, and word gets around
fast if you make a habit of burning people without making it right.

~~~
bonoboTP
> Sincere question about cheques: How do people in the UK (or other cheque-
> less places) deal with the transfer of large amounts of money between
> private or nearly private parties? > I own a small business [...]
> woodworking field.

In Hungary it depends on whether the businesses are trying to evade taxes or
not. If yes, cash is king. If no, then just transfer money to a bank account
(I guess this is the same as "direct deposit"). All banks have online banking
for this purpose.

> [...] setting up direct deposit [...]

There is nothing to set up for a one-off transaction. You log in to the online
banking site or use the bank's app. Fill in the recipient's name, account
number and amount, confirm with SMS code and it's done.

But it's equally easy to set up a recurring transaction online for every
week/month/whatever.

~~~
nucleardog
Similar in Canada. Interac e-transfers cost a flat $1-2 (depending on your
bank) and the funds are debited as soon as it's sent so when you accept one
it's guaranteed available and deposited and available immediately.

Just send via SMS/email from your banking app. The other person gets a link
that will open in their banking app and allow deposit.

------
Scoundreller
Faxes are better than email because you _know_ it didn’t get filtered out from
the inbox for some reason.

My employer reports that 99% of the emails it gets are blocked. And many
employers are tightening up further to prevent malware attacks.

If I need to send a purchase order, it’s nice to know it was received and have
an automatic copy of it without having to think to print a confirmation.

~~~
lotsofpulp
Spam faxes are a huge problem in my experience. It was not worth keeping a fax
machine around.

~~~
beerandt
There's at least a federal law on the books that allows for a $200-500 claim
against each unsolicited fax.

It was a good enough deterrent for decades, until the recent age of spoofed
caller ID. Also, it would be more effective if the claim could be made against
the benefactor, not just the sender.

~~~
JoshuaDavid
If you give fines based on beneficiary without verifying that the beneficiary
actually caused those faces to be sent, a bad actor could bankrupt their
competitor by sending a bunch of spam faxes "benefiting" them and waiting for
the claims to roll in.

~~~
beerandt
Agreed, although that might be easier to prove/disprove.

Also to be clear, it's not a fine, but a type of civil claim made through the
FTC instead of a court. With the main difference being: you receive the spam
fax, then you get the $200.

------
bbanyc
The nice thing about a check is that you can give it to anyone. You don't need
to know where they have a bank account or even _if_ they have a bank account.
(Check cashers may charge usurious fees but I'm glad they exist, as a backstop
if nothing else.) On the other hand I can't send money via PayPal to someone
who only has a Venmo account, or vice versa, and PayPal and Venmo are the same
company!

The inter-bank services like Zelle and Popmoney might be a little better,
though I've never used them and don't know if they're really catching on. Can
you send money via Zelle to an account at a non-Zelle bank? I know it's all
ACH under the hood (even most checks get turned into ACH these days) but I
don't really know how the permissions around that work.

As for the unbanked, there's always cash.

~~~
josteink
> The nice thing about a check is that you can give it to anyone.

I live in Europe. I haven’t seen a single place accept checks for at least 3
decades.

But hey, we have working banking systems. Maybe that helps explain it?

~~~
bbanyc
AIUI, the paper giro was a direct interbank transfer decades before ACH was
even a thing. They were widely used in Europe but never introduced in America.
That might be part of it.

Also, America has a lot more banks per capita than the rest of the world.
Until the 1990s banks weren't allowed to operate in more than one state, and
although there's been a big wave of consolidation since then there are still a
bunch of tiny banks in out-of-the-way small towns that are very set in their
ways and don't want to spend money on newfangled technology. In the rest of
the world, you get the major commercial banks on board, and maybe the dominant
network of savings funds/cooperative banks/credit unions, and that covers just
about everybody.

------
Mountain_Skies
Checks are almost a specialty item now. I was shocked at how much they cost
even from the discount mail order printers. If I keep the same bank, this
order, the smallest they produce, likely will last the rest of my life. Guess
they have to cover their costs on what is no longer a high volume business.

~~~
robert_foss
I'm reminded of their existence when visiting Canada / US. Their continued
existence is baffling.

~~~
scurvy
Housekeepers and babysitters like to be paid in cash. Sometimes it's more than
we have on hand, so we write a check.

I've pleaded with my housekeeper to accept CashApp or Venmo, but he refuses.
He wants a check. He's, perhaps rightfully, distrusting of new payment tech.

Babysitters are 50/50 on Venmo.

~~~
astura
I was always under the impression that it was against the TOS to use Venmo for
business transactions.

Looks like I was right unless there's some sort of separate business account

[https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/217532097-Can-I-
use...](https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/217532097-Can-I-use-Venmo-to-
buy-or-sell-merchandise-goods-or-services-)

>Venmo may NOT otherwise be used to receive business, commercial or merchant
transactions, meaning you CANNOT use Venmo to accept payment from (or send
payment to) another user for a good or service.

~~~
scurvy
Then about 99% of the transactions on their platform are in violation of their
own ToS. If someone pays for a joint meal, then you venmo your half, you're
paying for a good or service.

I'm guessing they have that in there to try and get around some KYC or due
diligence requirements? Or is this another Paypal-style tactic so they can
shutdown people's accounts for ToS violations and confiscate their monies?
Yes, that's probably it.

------
ryukafalz
The fact that pagers are still in use by hospitals is a bit scary. POCSAG
isn't encrypted, and it's possible to intercept messages in the area. One of
my former coworkers did that as an art project:
[https://brannondorsey.com/project/holy-
pager](https://brannondorsey.com/project/holy-pager)

~~~
Dayshine
Why is an unencrypted pager message any more scary than an announcement over
the loudspeakers? Aren't pages generally just "go here" or "get to a phone"?

~~~
ryukafalz
Mostly due to the range (well outside the hospital itself) and the content.
Pages can be just "get to a phone" but that's evidently not universally true:

[https://brannondorsey.com/assets/holypager/holypager-03.jpg](https://brannondorsey.com/assets/holypager/holypager-03.jpg)

~~~
Scoundreller
Right, but the point is that you can use them without revealing any personal
health info.

------
grecy
I worked at a large telco until 2015, and they had a written policy where it
was their goal to get a fax line added to every home.

------
rudolph9
The last time I saw Richard Stallman talk he had a pager.

I’m actually interested in getting one, it would be cool to get push
notifications for things I normally get on my phone. I wish there was a watch
that had pager service.

~~~
Zenst
Remarkably, what you describe was the foundation of Research In Motion. They
started out in pagers, advanced along with push email and then like most,
feature bloated chasing a consumer market into the annals of history.

~~~
Scoundreller
They should have stuck with consumer markets, but clinged to hardware when
what they had was winning software.

If they stuck with messaging software (BBM), they could have been WhatsApp.
Which was sold for 6x what they’re worth now.

They only made it platform-independent way too late.

~~~
Zenst
Their core business was Business customers, the company grew out of that. They
then pivoted around the time of the pearl towards a consumer market, which was
also a couple of years into launching a consumer service BIS, as opposed to
BES which required you to have the backend BES software. That was when the
focus shifted and at a time in which the Apple and Google offerings started to
appear and the rest is all she wrote.

They did offer their messaging software for other phones for a while in the
early days, Microsofts CE offering with blackberry connect (iirc the name). It
worked, yet didn't traction that well as anybody who really needed it, would
be better of buying an older RIM phone and using that and many did stick with
the older phones come the rise of the colour screen and onwards.

What they did do well was effecient comms over 2G, once 3G became palatable
for chipsets and more so, cost of use, that along with the rise in
alternatives from the likes of Apple and Google, helped Blackberry push
themselves into an also ran for trying to compete instead of focusing upon the
real bread and butter - the Business customers.

But life is always full of what-if's. But all companies have their
retrospective if we knew then what we know now moments.

------
Luc
What's the Tamagotchi to get nowadays (in Europe)? I would like to buy some as
gifts. There's a whole bunch of different models and I'm a bit lost.

------
alkonaut
Cheques and faxes died with the phone booth 20 years ago in Europe and the
developed world outside the US, right?

~~~
Scoundreller
It was a bit easier because I think prescriptions by fax never took off
outside of N. America, but it was the better way.

~~~
MrMorden
Unless DEA hasn't bothered to update their website, they still require
prescriptions for scheduled drugs to be on paper or via fax. If they actually
cared about security (which they don't; nobody in the US government does with
the possible exception of the NRC) they'd only allow electronic prescriptions
signed by an accredited CA.

------
satya71
Faxes have one crucial advantage over email. The police need a wiretap
authorization to intercept them. Of course if your fax machine is connected to
the internet (as most are today), they can get around that by hacking.

------
Scoundreller
Even though the US has moved to e-prescribing, there have been some arbitrary
limits imposed that didn’t exist on paper. E.g. the instructions line was
limited to 140 characters on one major hospital EHR.

~~~
tzs
Another limit is that it is harder to shop around with an e-prescription. I
cannot find a way to get Kaiser's pharmacy to tell me what a given drug will
cost out of pocket on my Kaiser plan unless I present them with an actual
written prescription. Then they can tell me what it would cost to fill it
right there.

So I have my Kaiser doctor, who can easily send e-prescriptions to any
pharmacy I choose, instead write me paper prescriptions just so I can find out
the Kaiser price, and then decide if I want to fill it there or take somewhere
else and use a GoodRx coupon or pay cash.

------
Kaibeezy
Analog multimeters

~~~
jacquesm
Very useful, especially when tuning or calibrating equipment. I find
optimization so much easier on an analogue scale than a digital one.

~~~
Kaibeezy
Yep. Sometimes you only need to know _whether_ or see _which direction_ not
_how much exactly at this exact moment_.

------
altmind
business cards

punch-down patch pannels

"call for quote"

~~~
jacquesm
Call for quote to me spells 'go away'. If I have to call for a quote you are
(1) going to overcharge me and (2) are afraid that your competitors can beat
your price and/or (3) harass me for months afterwards with 'follow up' that I
have no desire for.

~~~
cj
> Call for quote to me spells 'go away'.

There are many cases where this is by design.

I was recently in the market for a new couch. I walked into a neighborhood
furniture store, and I began looking around the showroom confused why there
were no price tags on any of the furniture ("ask for the price").

A minute later, the sales person approached me and said "Welcome! [...] Our
prices start at $4500 for a lovely sectional. Our store never has sale prices
and we don't negotiate price. Our couches are custom order and are delivered
8-12 weeks from the time of purchase. May I take you around the showroom?"

Since I was looking for something delivered next week (at a lower price), I
walked out of the store happy that the sales person was so upfront.

Some businesses do not want you as a customer, and use techniques like "Call
us for a quote" to weed out customers they know won't buy. Also, some products
are inherently difficult to give upfront pricing for before understanding more
parameters of the purchase.

Edit: This is especially true of B2B SaaS. A significant number of leads we
receive request custom integrations between our internal systems and the
customer's internal systems as part of their purchase. In these cases, it's
literally impossible to give a quote without multiple calls understanding the
complexity and set up cost.

~~~
lostcolony
Sure, but does it actually improve things for either side?

That couch business wasted both your time AND the sales rep's time. Who does
it help to not post prices?

For B2B, sure, you can't give an exact quote until you figure out the custom
logic, but the customer can at least ballpark what long term operation costs
will be based on any published pricing you have. I've never talked to a SaaS
vendor without some idea of ongoing price, even if we're going to need upfront
work that will be priced separately.

~~~
cj
> That couch business wasted both your time AND the sales rep's time. Who does
> it help to not post prices?

Because there isn't a price to show.

The missing detail I left out in the original comment is that the sale rep
also said "We have hundreds of fabric and color options available, and we can
accomodate any configuration."

Sure, I guess they could post prices for the models sitting on the floor, but
that price would only be for that _exact_ configuration. The point is, the
sale person wants to spend 1-2 hours working with the customer to determine
their fabric preferences, then color preferences, then configuration / shape
of the couch. The store does not cater to people who want the ability to walk
in, point to something and say "I want that, how much?" \- those people are
not their customers.

> For B2B, sure, you can't give an exact quote until you figure out the custom
> logic

In the couch example, it's the same, exact "custom logic" is instead fabric,
color, configuration, pull out vs. no pull out, ottoman vs no ottoman, etc.

(For the record, I hate non-transparent pricing as much as anyone. Heap is an
example that has been on my mind lately since we're looking at analytics
solutions at our company: [https://heap.io/pricing](https://heap.io/pricing)
\- it's impossible to infer the "contact us" pricing, since the only other
plan they have is "Free" \-- we're on their "Startup" plan for $499/mo, and I
have no idea if we're being ripped off, or if that's what everyone else is
paying too...)

~~~
Nullabillity
They can show a breakdown with the base cost of each module, the surcharges
for the different fabric and colour options, and a price example for the
display unit. It's not rocket surgery, IKEA manages to do this just fine.[0]

[0]: [https://www.ikea.com/se/sv/planner/gronlid-
planner/](https://www.ikea.com/se/sv/planner/gronlid-planner/)

------
tlarkworthy
Calafornian state department insist on cheques or cash. Now I live in Europe I
cannot issues cheques, and I cannot mail cash internationally via courier
(law). So how the Dickens do I get my children's birth certificates apostilled
(born in US)?

(Ans use a person I trust in the US, but without a social network it's
beauracratically impossible)

~~~
clintonb
Use a bill pay service. Most US-based banks offer a bill pay service that will
mail a check to the payee. I'm not sure if such a thing exists outside of the
US, or if your European bank will mail a USD check.

~~~
tlarkworthy
Euro banks do not issue checks. Maybe bill service could work, can they
forward the cheque along with documents like birth certificate originals?

~~~
detaro
> _Euro banks do not issue checks_

is not entirely universally true: at least here in Germany, especially
business accounts might be able to write cheques, because businesses sometimes
have to deal with companies in places were cheques are normal. Do you really
need to send it in the same letter as the documents? That makes it harder,
since many banks will have a partner bank in the US directly send it instead
of handing it to you, but the latter also is possible with some banks. So it
could be worth researching if you can use such a banks services, e.g. through
someone trusted locally. Bit of a long shot, but ...

~~~
tlarkworthy
I'm in Germany. I am not turning into a business for this. I dunno how you
could even say that with a straight face in Germany... Have you seen the
paperwork? I asked at Deutsche Bank, but they could not help or think of
another bank that could help.

------
basicplus2
Cheques can by definition can never be obsolete as they are simply "a written
order directing your bank to pay money [to someone]" and don't have to be on a
bank issued and numbered format.

~~~
mantap
Maybe so but your bank is not going to send money to someone unless they have
proof that you are the one sending the order. I doubt you can just mail a
letter to your bank and ask them to send money out of your account.

~~~
freeone3000
Have you tried? I bet you they would. Mine does it with a phone call!

~~~
vincnetas
how do they authenticate over phone. Just curious. Key generator? Something
else?

~~~
pdkl95
Banks don't necessarily need strong authentication, because that isn't what
they are trying to guarantee. Banks have contracts that often guarantee
something closer to "eventual consistency", where the ability to rollback or
correct transactions is more important than guaranteeing any single
transaction is correct at first. In the unlikely event of a problem, they can
fix it. The bank judges how much risk they want to take and uses whatever
level of authentication they feel is necessary, which might be as little as
asking your name and/or account number(s), or calling your phone listed on
your account.

------
IshKebab
I mean, they are all obsolete. Just because people still haven't upgraded
doesn't mean they're not obsolete.

Also surprised they didn't mention the use of tapes by the police:
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20556330](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20556330)

~~~
Zenst
Advantages of tape for evidence is that it is way easier to prove that it was
an original, not tampered with than a digital form.

WIth that, I worked at the BBC in the early 2k period on a project to replace
the last bastions of tapes in radio towards a complete digital system.
Remarkably one of the drivers of this move was that the tapes used had stopped
being manufactured. Ironically though like many things tech that from a user
perspective - just work, parts of that system are still in use today.

But then like many things - if it works, why change it does seem to play out
more often than not.

