
Qualcomm, Microsoft Announce Snapdragon 835 PCs with Gigabit LTE - yurisagalov
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/05/qualcomm-microsoft-announce-snapdragon-835-pcs-with-gigabit-lte/
======
kevin_b_er
> With a Snapdragon inside your PC, you'll no longer need Wi-Fi to fetch your
> latest e-mail and catch up on Twitter. Instead, you'll be able to get online
> wherever there's cellular connectivity.

I'm not buying the optimism, especially not in the US. The cellular data is
still horribly limited. In Canada it is even worse. The "unlimited" plan is
surging back, but it has automatic throttling at varying points.

Oh and since we're talking Microsoft and Windows, you can't control data
usage. Windows 10 uploads your personal information at unknown intervals and
downloads ads and sponsored apps without consent.

What good is faster cell data with horrible data limits and an OS with a poor
concept of when data is permissible even in the "Enterprise" edition?

~~~
tw04
You've been able to limit data usage on Windows 10, if not from the start,
shortly thereafter.

"Set as metered connection" under the connection settings.

You can disable telemetry at any point if you want to. The only "unwanted ad"
\- that everyone constantly complains about, is for onedrive. Guess what -
every time I log into my mac, it asks me if I want more icloud storage. So
literally the same thing. Ubuntu wasn't much better with their Amazon
experience. If you're going to tell me to install Gentoo or Arch on my daily
driven laptop we aren't having a rational discussion.

I've _NEVER_ had Windows download a "sponsored app without my consent". What
third party app is this you speak of?

~~~
barrkel
I've had ads on Windows lock screen ("Get fun facts, tips, tricks and _more_
on your lock screen"). I was fairly sure I had turned this off, and it was
weeks before I saw an ad (replacing Spotlight background), but once I did see
an ad, I wrote my own program to set the lock screen background and stayed
well away from the MS Spotlight.

Spotlight itself is an ad for Edge; if you want more information on the photo,
it'll pop up in Edge, not in your default browser.

Windows installed a bunch of sponsored apps / icons when I first installed it.
Xbox, Skype, Groove, Money - they may all be owned by MS, but they're still
crapware as far as I'm concerned.

~~~
FireBeyond
One of the most despised things, for me? In Edge, Cortana popping up, when I
go to the driver download site for my laptop, "Can I interest you in a
coupon?".

"No, you can't. Fuck off." Excuse the language.

~~~
ams6110
You can disable Cortana

------
wyldfire
I look forward to learning more about this product. I love that we're moving
non-x86 into mainstream consumer products like this (and not limited to low-
end chromebooks, e.g.).

ARM SoCs lack the backward compatible x86 BIOS-style bootstrap. This is great
because it's kinda crazy to think about booting into stuff like MBR, real
mode, etc in 2017. But this is bad because without good standards it's really
tricky to have a generic installer for another OS. Also, all or nearly all ARM
SoCs have signed bootloaders. Great: less fear of a rootkit/virus hiding in my
system. Awful: often used to protect subsidies or other business model
hijinks; can't install an alternate OS.

~~~
albeva
This is lunacy. It will break compatibility with nearly all software out
there. From games to productivity apps. Like the stuff I actually use a PC
for.

~~~
flavio81
Productivity apps are almost never developed in assembly language. They are
developed in some high level language, so for each of such language, assuming
the Windows 10 APIs are the same (which they WILL be, no need to change them):

\- Java

Java applications will not require any recompilations, they will run
immediately because they run on a JVM

\- C#/VB/F#

Those applications still will run right away because they run in the .NET CLR
virtual machine.

\- C++, C

These applications, considering they are already using the Windows APIs,
should recompile with few changes.

Games, nowadays, are also developed using frameworks. They mostly depend on
the GPU nowadays, and the GPU was never x86 architecture either, so no big
change there.

~~~
MichaelGG
Memory model and byte order is enough to add breakage to stuff written in all
of those languages.

~~~
problems
I believe Java and C# enforce specific byte orders to get around this issue,
so I doubt you'll see a problem there unless interacting with C++ libraries.

~~~
MichaelGG
Not if you're converting bytes into integers, for instance. E.g.
[https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/library/system.bitconverter...](https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/library/system.bitconverter.toint32\(v=vs.110\).aspx) \- it's arch
specific.

~~~
problems
Interesting, similar functions in the Java world are always big endian:

[http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/math/BigIntege...](http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/math/BigInteger.html#toByteArray%28%29)

Seems like a rather poor decision on Microsoft's part. Fortunately rather few
things interact with data this way anyways, most serialization formats are
text based or include endian information.

------
swiley
This is actually a very bad thing.

Qualcomm is decidedly against open source and open firmware, this will bring
the closed disposable worthless logic board with the unmodifiable OS from your
phone and into your laptop.

Microsoft likes it of course because it means more control for them.

TL;DR: Intel is not being abandoned because it's too closed, it's being
abandoned because it's too open!

~~~
userbinator
My thoughts exactly. Wintel PCs are becoming too closed for comfort (see Intel
ME, trusted/secure boot, etc.) and slowly degrading in terms of backward-
compatibility, but they still have that legacy of openness inherited from the
original IBM PC/AT of 1984 and continued throughout the 90s.

I wouldn't even want to call these "PCs" anymore. These are essentially
locked-down mobile devices running a crude approximation of a real PC
environment.

------
al2o3cr

        Asus, HP, and Lenovo are all planning to introduce Snapdragon Mobile PC systems
        at some unspecified time in the future, for some unspecified price.
    

In other news, today at the Vaporware Expo every computer manufacturer
announced plans to release a new device featuring unspecified hardware at some
unspecified time in the future for an unspecified price.

~~~
paulftw
Any threats to Intel's (almost?) monopoly on laptops/desktops is a good thing.

~~~
albeva
Competition yes, but I'd prefer from AMD rather than a different CPU
architecture.

~~~
frandroid
Isn't AMD emulating x86 over RISC anyway?

~~~
Hamcha
as is Intel, I don't think there has been a true x86 CPU in a while

~~~
0xFFC
I did hear this from my Prof in our university too, where can I find
information about this?

~~~
phoenix3200
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcode](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcode)

~~~
bobsam
I think you were thinking of microarchitecture, microcode is related but
probably not what parent meant.

Information about Intel internal architectures is highly confidential, but
there are remotely related technologies that are generic and public, for
example
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_renaming](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_renaming)

~~~
phoenix3200
Nah, Tomasulo and all that jazz (microarchitecture) is about improving
performance once you've got a defined instruction set.

Microcode (which is one of those highly confidential things that both Intel
and AMD hold close and dear) is about doing an on-the-fly CISC to RISC
transformation because you realized that the legacy x86 ISA is an absolute
pain to handle (but you aren't willing to give it up).

~~~
bobsam
I believe you are confusing microcode (which is mainly used for complex and
slow instructions and does not need to be RISC) with micro-ops which is the
Intel lingo for the internal RISC operations.

Register renaming is a key part of high performance ISA emulation. The x64 has
16 gp registers but the internal RISC normally has 80. Of course this is also
a key part of OOO and alike as you mentioned.

------
Samathy
I'm really excited about ARM laptops, but only if:

* They have laptop-class performance, not tablet class performance * They can have more than 4GB of RAM * You can put reasonable sized standard SATA SSDs in them, or user-replaceable M.2 drives. * You can easily wipe Windows off them and put Linux on it.

~~~
zanny
> You can easily wipe Windows off them and put Linux on it.

None of the modems are going to be supported in Linux because they all use
blob drivers and are wholly proprietary.

ARM has no bios or standard boot procedure. Google requires coreboot on
Chromebooks, for example, which allows Linux to run on the ARM targets. It is
unlikely ARM laptops without Google's strong arm are going to support
coreboot.

Qualcomm specifically leaves significant portions of the support code for
their SoCs in binary blobs, unable to be used in generic kernels. There is no
Linux kernel level support for almost any Qualcomm SoC, and even then they are
often some of the _better_ ones. The other "real" options are third parties
with ARM's own CPUs on them, which would have ARM's GPUs which have no real
device support in Linux (Lima is dead) compared to Qualcomm parts (Freedreno
sees updates). Nvidias chips are probably the closest to usable, and Samsung's
Exynos are completely unusable and mega-proprietary (you will have a hard time
finding even custom Android ROMs for Samsung SoCs).

The ARM ecosystem as a whole is really, really toxic. It is all NIH'd out the
butt, there are no standards, everything is proprietary, and nobody
contributes upstream. By comparison, x86 is an angelic fantasy.

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
> ARM has no bios or standard boot procedure.

Doesn't this system use uefi?

------
yread
There is a bit more detail here (with pictures)

[https://www.notebookcheck.net/Prototype-of-
Snapdragon-835-po...](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Prototype-of-
Snapdragon-835-powered-notebooks-unveiled.224926.0.html)

~~~
pawadu
That PCB is very small! And it doesn't look extremely packed either.

------
walterbell
_> the new operating system will include x86 emulation, giving it the ability
to run 32-bit Windows desktop applications unmodified_

Is this emulation done with a combination of hardware & software?

~~~
krona
I believe this is WOW64 (used to emulate x86 on x86-64 in Windows) extended to
support ARM64 targets.

~~~
dfox
There is no emulation in the traditional sense involved in running 32 bit x86
code on x86-64, the code is run directly on the CPU, only thing that needs to
be "emulated" is the OS's ABI for system calls.

------
emilecantin
> Gigabit LTE

Wow, now I can bust my monthly data allotment in just a second! (or ~6s if you
get the "big" data plan)

~~~
lloeki
There are set-top boxes, from ISPs that are also mobile operators, which embed
femtocells. When a mobile subscriber is using such a femtocell, it doesn't
count towards the mobile data cap.

~~~
firethief
Imagine the convenience of having a wireless network in your own home!

~~~
lloeki
Although of limited range, the femtocell is public, not limited to the
landline customer's use. This handily covers shadowed areas in cities as well
as remote areas, reduces load on main cells, and Tx power needed both ways.

------
natch
The last thing I want is more engagement in my current relationships with
cellular service companies.

If Qualcomm and Microsoft really want a game changer, they should sink some of
their vast resources into making mesh networking take off.

------
shams93
I see this as an attack on ipad for business. I worked for a company that had
to support ipads for business, we were using Xamarin and it was a slow and
painful, expensive process but the systems were easy to manage, although using
an onscreen keyboard was limiting. Imagine the same benefits of ipad for
business without having to license a private app store from Apple. Imagine the
cost per unit is lower and you can use .Net without the pain of Xamarin
involved to roll out software as regular win32 binaries instead of jumping
through hoops to produce an ios app in a .Net based business.

------
technofiend
Does anyone else get the cold sweats just thinking about a _Windows_ machine
sitting essentially naked on the internet? Sure, Windows has a firewall. I
still wouldn't really trust there are no zero days in it. This will make a
damn fine Chromebook or Linux machine. Windows? Particularly with Qualcomm
writing the unauditable radio stack? (See Google's Project Zero for why _that
's_ a bad idea.) No thanks.

~~~
callalex
Every mobile operator puts devices behind nat. There aren't enough IP
addresses to go around otherwise.

~~~
subway
Only for IPv4. Most carriers also currently offer IPv6, and route directly to
devices.

------
flavio81
I think this is GREAT news, because it implies the following.

a. - Intel and AMD losing their pseudo-monoply on PC/laptop chips, perhaps
enabling bringing some prices down.

b. - Mainstream PCs abandoning the old x86 (+IA64, AMD64) instruction set for
a more modern instruction set which (i guess) enables more modern, more power-
efficient architectures.

but _much more exciting than the above is that..._

c. - The jump to a more power-efficient CPU will enable me to have a nice
desktop PC with, say, 128 cores, and with no extravagant cooling system or
ridiculously high power consumption (I need to pay the power bills, anything
that will be on for at least 8 hours a day will be watched for power
consumption.). I know that there are already ways to take advantage of GPUs,
but they are for specific operations. A desktop PC with a huge lot of cores
will bring more generalized performance improvement.

And TRUE hardcore multitasking...

d. - This will push all vendors and Open Source projects to improve on their
compiler support for that architecture.

~~~
swiley
Just about none of this is likely (except maybe the low power stuff) given
qualcomm's track record.

Even smartphone OEMs hardly have any control over their kernel thanks to
Qualcomm.

------
subway
I love the concept -- I already use a laptop with an LTE modem, but I really
wish Qualcomm would lay off on giving their baseband such low level access to
the application cores.

I already begrudgingly use a phone where I know the carrier can execute
arbitrary code accessing system memory, I really don't want that on my laptop
too.

------
squarefoot
WiFi is to cellular connectivity what local storage is to the cloud.
Apparently it's all fine and dandy, then one day someone on the other side
change their mind and you lose this or that feature, in other words control.

Cellular connectivity can be useful as cloud storage can be, but I'd never
ever use anything that depends on either for connectivity or storage. Moving
every resource behind a tap the user cannot control is not the way to go,
although I'm sure IT companies will keep pushing in that direction for obvious
reasons.

------
loki22
If SD835 is put in PCs the performance is going to be abysmal due to x86
emulation layer. Consequently, the price of the devices is going to be low,
most likely in the same range as low end Pentium and Atom
laptops/convertibles.

The same chip with lower performance (due to power considerations) in high end
phones costing upwards of $600-900, makes it an interesting gambit.

------
0xFFC
Wow, This is what I was talking about when I got down voted two or 3 days ago.
Yes, ARM/Qualcomm in no position to compete with INTEL high-end desktop CPUs.
But they are perfectly capable of competing in low-end market and multi-
processor environment. This will hurt INTEL in long term very badly. ARM will
come to the desktop. No matter we like it or not.

~~~
AdmiralAsshat
ARM is already in the desktop (or laptop, rather). See: the numerous
Chromebooks powered by Rockchip processors:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockchip_RK3288](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockchip_RK3288)

~~~
ant6n
Before that, Samsung Exynos was in some Chromebooks

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-A15](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-A15)

------
bhauer
If you are part of the cult-like group that dreams of a future Surface Phone,
which includes myself, this is an interesting milestone. If such a device has
been in the works in the past, Intel's cancellation of Morganfield (Broxton
SoC for phones) was a huge set-back.

Microsoft pursuing x86 emulation on ARM, while certainly of interest to low-
cost traditional form-factors such as laptops and tablets, is also interesting
because it reinvigorates the _idea_ of a Surface Phone. Of course, the reality
remains to be seen.

For those unfamiliar, the concept that many of us imagine for a Surface Phone
includes an evolution of today's Windows 10 Mobile _Continuum_ feature that,
as with Ubuntu Phones and some fringe Android devices, allows a phone to act
as a full computer when docked to a keyboard, mouse, and display. While
Continuum exists today on devices such as the Lumia 950 and HP Elite x3, it is
limited to Windows' "Universal" applications, and does not work with x86 or
even older Windows Phone applications. Still, the appeal of a single-device
lifestyle is considerable and many people would love to simplify the
technology in their life to a phone that is also their desktop/mobile
computer. Many of the youngest generation already do this by simply conceding
(willingly or unknowingly) they will never enjoy the advantages of computing
with large monitors, keyboards, and mice.

In order for a single device to successfully fulfill these multiple roles, it
needs to be able to run real applications and not just in a "enlarged phone
OS" fashion seen on devices such as the iPad Pro.

If a Surface Phone were to materialize, I would expect Windows 10 Mobile and
Windows 10 to become more converged than they are today. When using Continuum
on a Lumia 950, Windows 10 Mobile is doing a respectable job of impersonating
a Windows 10 desktop; but it's a veneer. For a Surface Phone to be a viable
computer, I think it would start with Windows 10 (full version for ARM) and
adapt _downward_ to the phone form-factor, rather than today's opposite of a
phone-tailored operating system adapting upward. Yes, W10 and W10M are very
similar today, but a SP device would, I feel, push them closer together.

Of course, there is no genuine credible news on such as device, and Microsoft
has dodged questions, even downplaying the likelihood of such a device. There
seems to be a widespread opinion that one should not even _try_ to build
momentum in today's phone market, which I feel is shockingly myopic and
pessimistic. Of course it's not a simple matter to establish a foothold in
mobile, but previous efforts, while half-hearted at times were nevertheless
making (slow) progress until Microsoft pulled the rug out from beneath Windows
Phone 8. The biggest challenge to a Surface Phone would be bigger than
technology: it would be a test of Microsoft's commitment to the idea.

~~~
maga
I was very enthusiastic about both Microsoft Phone and Ubuntu Phone, I still
am. I'd love to replace all my devices with a single below 7-8" phone that
could run x86 apps at the performance level of Macbook Air 2013. Since most of
my dev work goes on in Intellij IDEs and I use cloud for more demanding
machine learning tasks, I don't really need much performance from the
workstation to merit having a dedicated notebook/pc for it.

------
youdontknowtho
If you think...I would buy one of these except that it has secure boot
mandatory so I can't install Linux or reinstall Windows...then you actually
aren't the market for these. Companies and consumers who don't care are...and
they will buy a lot of them.

------
adrianlmm
I'd love to buy a Windows PC with ARM, I hope this becomes true.

~~~
chrisper
The surface with ARM wasn't really that good I read. I think it was the lack
of ARM software.

~~~
adrianlmm
I hope MS has learned from it's misstakes this time, I'm sure they did.

------
erikpukinskis
Interesting point of convergence. This is probably first really mass market
mobile VR chipset for positional tracking. Unless we turn out to need some
kind of dedicated CV chip.

------
seaghost
I hope in near future we'll choose what we want to install on our mobile
devices and use it as desktop as well. Think of it as way better version then
Samsung Dex.

------
antihero
Fantasic, except in the centre of one of the most tech cities in the world,
London, I can still barely scrape 200Kb/s with Three outside Liverpool Street.

------
pulse7
I was reading very fast "...Announce Snapdragon $35 PCs with Gigabit LTE"... I
hope the price will be $35...

------
Markoff
nah, just give me the x86 win32 emulation on Android so i can ditch my laptop
for mobile which already has more RAM, but i still need to keep laptop for one
work app

------
zobzu
its interesting how ars basically copy paste the press release, even thus they
very well know how much bs is in it.

nobody cares about integrity anymore?

------
exabrial
Yes, but does it include a headphone jack?

/s

------
Noctix
I don't see the purpose of this. Current Windows on ARM has pretty non
existent support by developers.

~~~
speps
I think you missed that news :
[https://www.engadget.com/2017/05/12/windows-10-will-
seamless...](https://www.engadget.com/2017/05/12/windows-10-will-seamlessly-
run-legacy-x86-win32-apps-on-arm/)

~~~
Noctix
This is basically an emulator though; it will be quite slow.

~~~
mciancia
They showed games (WoT I think) running using this emulation, so maybe not.

~~~
rasz
"World of Tanks Blitz" \- a Phone game

