
Is College Really Worth It?  - latif
http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/cliff-kuang/design-innovation/infographic-day-college-really-worth-it
======
dangrover
I dropped out this year and feel awful about it, despite being way better off.

During that time, I've quadrupled sales in my ISV and have made a full-time
living of it, and I now have no debt and decent savings. I'm no Mark
Zuckerburg, but it's not a bad start.

But I still kinda feel like a loser without a degree, even if I don't think
I'll need it. Especially since I paid so much for the first couple years. I
applied to another school (public this time) to transfer, just in case I come
to my senses.

I think there's credit bubble in education just like the one in housing. Lots
of easily available, subsidized money for student loans, even if the rates
aren't great. Plus it's a platitude that there's no sacrifice too big you (or
your family) can make to get a college education. So even reasonable, well-
meaning institutions have totally wacky prices, just as a reaction to market
forces and a desire to stay "competitive" building fancy new stuff.

This sounds really crazy and tin-foil-hat-ish, but sometimes I think that
there's kind of a "educational industrial complex" if you will that's
benefiting from this weird (hopefully temporary) situation, and I feel icky
supporting it just because I'm afraid someone will judge me wrong without the
piece of paper some day. One of the reasons I quit my job after I quit school
was because I hate that feeling of knowing you're being fucked over a little
bit each day because you don't have the balls or resources to do anything
about it. I feel like school is that kinda situation now, and it shouldn't be,
because there's a ton of good things about college and I want to finish.

~~~
jeff18
Your post is all about why dropping out was great for you, yet you feel bad
and you are trying to apply to get back in "in case you come to your senses".
What is your motivation for going back to school, after proving to yourself
that you don't need it?

~~~
dangrover
I dunno. I think it's just the stigma of being a dropout. Also, I think it's
generally a good thing to go to college for the intrinsic value, and nothing
I'm doing is so critical that it can't wait.

I actually had a 3.8 GPA before my last semester. Going back immediately after
dealing with a brain tumor/surgery kinda screwed things up, though I should
have been theoretically unaffected by it.

A friend of mine who is far more successful than I'll ever be and shouldn't
even be using "go back" and "school" in the same sentence, just went back, and
after a semester, he's done again. So I dunno.

I think there have been some pretty big changes with how companies, jobs, and
credentials work ("High Res Society" kinda stuff), and the culture will lag
behind 10-20 years.

------
nostrademons
So, I'm not certain that college is really worth it, but there're a lot of
misleading statistics in the infographic:

1\. The cost of attending a private vs. public university does not include
financial aid. For many middle-income kids, the _actual_ price of attending a
private university is often less than that of attending a state school,
because the private university may give you a full ride based on need, while
the state school has much less resources to spend on financial aid.

2\. The "17 years to make up the difference" figure is based on starting
salaries, but it doesn't account for raises that occur soon afterwards. Many
of college friends went into financial, software or consulting businesses at
around $55K/year - 4 years later, they're now making well over 6 figures. Many
of my high school friends went into local or boutique businesses at around
$50k/year - 4 years later, they are still making $50k/year, or worse, they've
lost their jobs because of the economic crash.

3\. "1 out of 2 students fail to correctly analyze prose" - ironic, because of
the inaccuracies in the infographic...

The numbers spent partying/drinking/videogaming seem about right though. I
think it's pretty likely that college is a bubble, but I don't like to see
some of the financial myths repeated. If you get into Yale and you get decent
financial aid, you should probably go, because that degree is worth a lot more
than one from UConn, and the people who write for FastCompany often have no
idea about the inner workings of the financial aid system.

~~~
trimski
The financial aid available at top-tier schools is very generous, because so
few low-income students make up the undergraduate body. If I recall correctly,
at the top 120 colleges in the United States, only 3% of the student body come
from families in the bottom quintile of household income.

As a result, schools such as Harvard[1] and Stanford[2] pay for all tuition
for students with a household income of less than $60,000.

[1]:
[http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/financial_aid/inde...](http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/financial_aid/index.html)

[2]: <http://www.stanford.edu/dept/finaid/undergrad/>

~~~
nostrademons
Right. Which means that if you are a lower-income student with the academic
chops to make it into Harvard or Stanford, it very much behooves you to go.
You get a fully subsidized education, _and_ it probably makes much more of a
difference to your bottom-line earnings than if you were a child of upper-
income parents that's always figured you were going to Harvard.

------
markpneyer
Not if you're smart and motivated it's not.

I went to High School with a guy named Chris. He dropped out of college to do
programming work, and I stayed on, eventually going to grad school.

Now he's the founder of GitHub and I'm some no-name programmer working for a
financial company nobody's ever heard of.

~~~
chrischen
In defense of the average guy, not everyone can go out and do great things,
otherwise those things wouldn't be considered great anymore.

~~~
lionhearted
> In defense of the average guy, not everyone can go out and do great things,
> otherwise those things wouldn't be considered great anymore.

I incredibly, firmly disagree with this. The average person actualizes maybe -
_maybe_ 3% of their potential. It's possible for almost anyone to reach high
level domain mastery in at least 2-3 fields in their lifetime, and make a at
least a couple profound contributions in those fields. There's some hard
tradeoffs involved, but it's something that almost anyone is capable of if
they want it.

~~~
chrischen
Ok let me restate that, because that was not what I meant to say.

What I meant to say was that if everyone went out and achieved 100% of their
potential, it wouldn't be impressive anymore.

We all have the _potential_ to achieve roughly equal results, but what stops
most of us is desire and persistance.

------
alain94040
It's going to sound condescending but I'll say it anyway: if you enjoy hanging
out on HN (and you do since you are reading this), then you'll enjoy attending
college because it's the only place on earth where everyone is college-level
smart.

Obvious of course, but kind of true. Everywhere else (except maybe at Google),
you have to deal with the uneducated masses :-)

~~~
lionhearted
> ... because it's the only place on earth where everyone is college-level
> smart.

Not true - there's plenty of places where most of the people you'll meet are
quite intelligent, and not everyone in college are college-level smart. If you
go to Harvard, sure, it's all fairly smart people. The average state school?
Not so much.

As for places with lots of smart people, it's _very_ worth it to go get coffee
at the Ritz Carlton sometimes. It's $10 for a pot of coffee that'll serve 2-3
people, so it's only like $5 to go if you go with a friend or the girlfriend,
and it's good coffee. There'll be smart people there from out of town, often
having a quick bite to eat alone while reading a newspaper. Contrary to
popular belief, wealthy people tend to be very friendly and approachable if
you're polite, complimentary, and interested in striking up a chat - I've met
a fair few intelligent people while having coffee at a nice hotel or ex-pat
bar or other place like that.

If you're willing to try to charm a little bit too, you can probably talk your
way into the business class/first class lounges with decent success when
you're flying, and people inside tend to be a smart, a bit bored, and quite
receptive to having a conversation.

There's lots of places to meet smart people. University is good for some smart
people, but not all. I enjoyed some of the business and technical classes I
took, but absolutely went nuts with the "general requirements" and the rote
busywork it entailed.

So there's lots of places to meet smart people besides university. And
seriously, I'd recommend anyone who isn't comfortable in "wealthy places" to
go have a pot of coffee at the Ritz Carlton. It's $10, cheaper than a mid-end
restaurant lunch. Strike up a conversation with someone. Might change your
life, but at the very least you get more comfortable in the environment.

~~~
quizbiz
Want to share more about talking your way into the lounges?

~~~
lionhearted
Sure.

Before I do, let me share the general theory about life - most people are
decent people and want to help you if you're nice and a decent person. They
don't want to get in trouble though, so you want to make it as easy as
possible for the person. So, if there's multiple people there, you have much
lower odds. People want to help out, but no one wants to get reprimanded
obviously.

But let's say it's one guy or girl there. You walk up, smile, greet them, ask
how their day/night is going. They say good, good, maybe you smalltalk for a
moment. Be as personable, friendly, and courteous as possible.

They ask for your boarding pass. You have two choices now - hand them your
boarding pass and just SMILE huge, or, say something along the lines of -
"Well, I'm flying Jet Blue today, but they don't have a lounge, and I always
take British Airways internationally - I'd just like to grab a cup of coffee
for like 20 minutes before my flight if that's cool, and I'd really appreciate
it."

Which to use? Kind of a judgment call. Handing them the pass with a big,
guilty smile actually works. "Go right ahead" - oh my God, I love that, I feel
like James Bond if I pull that off. But I did the Jet Blue thing flying out of
San Francisco - I forget what airline lounge I got into, but it was
legitimately one I flew a lot. Either British Air or something Star Alliance,
Jet Blue didn't have a lounge, so I just told them that and asked nicely, the
girl there waived me in.

Don't take it as a given, be friendly, and remember you're asking for a favor.
You're not entitled, so don't be a jerk or demanding or act like you're
royalty. Helps if you're dressed well, groomed well, and speak generally upper
class English - nothing snobby, stay casual, just "Good morning", "Good
evening", things like that - they want it to be a nice ambiance inside, so
looking like you're not going to cause problems is critical. Again, most
people want to help you, but you need to make it easy for them to do so.

So, be incredibly polite and friendly, and there's a decent chance of things
working out. I usually try it if I'm an hour+ early, and I don't know what my
success rate is - maybe 50%? Maybe more or less. It all comes down to the
individual person at the counter, how their day is going, and how full/crazy
the place is. If it's not very full, they're a nice person, and having a nice
day, you've got a decent shot. Can't hurt to ask, at least.

------
nearestneighbor
Excellent question. For coders trying to maximize their probability of getting
rich enough not to worry about money by the time they are 25 or 30, I'm sure
going to college is an awful bet, especially in the US, where college
education is expensive. And the more education you get, the worse of a bet it
is (I have a PhD from an Ivy League school, BTW, as does pg, I think)

However, some important work and innovation absolutely requires higher
education. For example, you are extremely unlikely to learn linear algebra and
matrix theory "on the job", while running a startup, or even if you are just
relaxing at home with nothing else to do for a few years.

    
    
        tl;dr: don't go to college, but expect to have your
        horizons limited

~~~
jey
> you are extremely unlikely to learn linear algebra and matrix theory "on the
> job"

Why? All of the information is available in books and on Wikipedia. Nowadays
you can learn nearly _anything_ for free with just an internet connection and
some dedication. The biggest potential impediment is be a self-defeating
attitude that prevents you from trying.

On the other hand, don't expect learning "on the job" to mean that you'll get
paid to learn.

~~~
nearestneighbor
> Nowadays you can learn nearly anything for free with just an internet
> connection and some dedication

It's no different from the situation before the internet, since books are
cheap (compared to your time) and usually are still a better source of
information on such structured subjects anyway.

In fact, when I was in college, I mostly read textbooks anyway instead of
attending lectures (it's easier for me to learn this way).

This however is not the whole story. Even if you are motivated ("I'd like to
learn math"), you are probably not motivated enough for some feats of
cognition. If you know people who stayed home and studied math on their own
for a few years, full-time, at college level (I don't), they are probably very
rare.

~~~
jey
No, the situation is very different now with the internet since you can now
study subjects in any arbitrary order, as long as you diligently identify and
follow the dependencies (i.e. prerequisites). Prescribed curricula and
structured courses were much more important in the pre-internet days since it
was much harder to use the dependency-order learning approach.

I've learned a decent amount of mathematical stuff on my own without
traditional books, and I'm pretty sure this will become more and more common
over time. I'm a member of the earliest generation (b. 1985) for which this
was really possible, and I just fell into it by accident, but in the coming
decades I expect we'll see a lot more people who are almost entirely self-
educated through the internet. I'm sure it'll still be a relatively uncommon
phenomenon, but at least the people who learn best in this way now have access
to the information and tools they need.

~~~
nearestneighbor
Learning math from Wikipedia is like learning foreign languages from a
dictionary. It seems that you are intent on believing what you chose to
believe, though, so good luck with that.

~~~
waterlesscloud
I'd be seriously impressed by anyone who could actually learn math or physics
from wikipedia. Those articles are so poorly written and jargon heavy that I
rarely learn anything from them.

Happily the computer science articles tend to make at least a little sense.
But then I already have a degree in the field.

~~~
RiderOfGiraffes
The articles are in fact extremely well written, but they are encyclopedaic.
They are not written as a textbook, but as a reference work. Most articles
assume you're nearly there and need the details.

There are people who can learn from encyclopedias, but most people need well-
paced, linearly(ish) arranged material.

------
dylanz
I love these types of posts. There seems to be "a ton" of them lately.

I'll say one thing... college is definitely worth it if you're planning on
working in the Medical field. I think hospitals only hire people with a formal
education now-a-days ;) The same probably goes for sending people to the moon,
building nuclear reactors, etc. There is a reason for colleges to exist, as
sometimes the human race "needs" to make sure you know your @#$%.

------
dryicerx
Seeing this question really bothers me.

Because it's a impossible question to answer, it's too broad and there are so
many factors.

The Major and the school. Each and every one is so different, I don't really
see if it makes any sense to even average them together.

Personal need and motivation? Are you there to learn and challenge your self,
or for the social experience, or just to do the lowest possible to get a piece
of paper that says Degree.

Indirect opportunities. For example meeting great researchers and professors
and working side by side with them in some cases. Internship opportunities.
Social networking and meeting people.

Causation vs. Correlation. Are people who go to college more successful
because of college, or are those people bound to be successful anyway, they
just happen to go to college.

------
luckydude
Hi,

Small tech company founder, still the guy who hires and manages the engineers.
Just some background.

I used to think that Google's desire for graduate degrees was sort of elitist
and not necessary. I've changed my mind, and here's why.

I work in a woodshop as a way to relax and have found an analogy for the
education thing. I've come to believe that a well educated mind is sort of
like a well organized shop; a self educated mind is like a messy shop.

There is no judgement intended, both neat and messy shops can produce
excellent work, just as a self-educated person can produce just as good work
as a formally educated person.

The difference is speed. At the risk of stretching the analogy, in a neat shop
you can find tools quickly and make things quickly. A formally educated person
uses the education to quickly make choices about how to solve problems whereas
a self-educated person has to rederive a lot of those choices.

I've personally witnessed this in engineers that have worked for me and I'm
moving towards wanting formally educated people. If you want to do well in the
tech industry, I'd strongly urge you to get a formal education and cover the
basics. If you have a CS degree and pointers bother you, you got a crappy
degree. Ditto for basic language design, compiler design, OS design.

Just my two cents and you should probably ignore it because while I have a
masters in CS, I also have a messy shop :)

------
jasonlbaptiste
The only value I have received from college is knowing that I don't need it to
succeed. I dropped out and went back to finish in between startups. If you do
go, enjoy your time there, drop in on interesting classes, and most
importantly meet as many interesting people as possible.

------
oldgregg
College doesn't pass the smell test to me. During the housing boom everyone
was saying, hey, easy money, housing is a sure thing. That just doesn't smell
right, and sure enough, the system was being temporarily propped up. College
is the same way. If everyone is taking out 80k to get shit faced for 5 years
it just doesn't smell right. Like housing, the system is being propped up in
large part due to low interest rate loans among other things. Certain
professions that have government backed monopolies (medicine, law) might be
alright. But just like your housing deed, most every other degree won't hardly
be worth the paper it's written on.

~~~
verisimilitude
The loans aren't low interest rate, and the costs of education keep rising.
Unfortunately, rising tuition rates aren't going to the professors.

Straight (no banks -- direct lending) department of education loans are 6.8%
and 7.9% for the most common loans.

I'll pay over $95,000 in interest over 10 years on department of education
student loans. I don't own a car or a house. I have no credit card debt. I
came out of undergrad with $0 in debt.

------
TravisLS
You could probably actually buy two Ferrari F430s once you take into account
all of the student loan interest.

~~~
zach
This kills me -- I've seen so many financial illustrations about the miracle
of compound interest and the true cost of a loan. But these lessons are never
applied to paying off an onerous student loan until middle age.

This unexamined attitude of education as an unqualified good has already led a
lot of young people overpaying for professional education of questionable
benefit, and now to even more taking on unreasonable debt in pursuit of a
bachelor's degree.

------
dinkumthinkum
I just feel like the view espoused in this article is unbelievably cliche.
Most of the response are pretty cliche as well. The consensus seems to be that
college is essentially pointless, a social gathering at best.Then there's also
the the typical "colleges will be obsolete soon; we'll all be crowdsourcing
our own learning" blah blah blah type nonsense. It's all just rather naive to
me.

------
teeja
"Worth it"? Depends on what "it" is. There was a time when college wasn't
about vocational education ...

Is it worth spending 4 years learning about the history of your country and
culture? Seeing a lot of great movies or concerts? Hanging out and enjoying
life without lots of burdens before joining the rat race? Having the time to
explore a lot of options to find out what you're really good at, or maybe
discover some field or some country or some culture that you didn't know
existed that changes your whole life?

College is what you make of it. It can be more than being trained like a lab
rat. Some people even find friends who hire them later on!

------
biotech
_One out of two students fail to correctly analyze prose like a newspaper
editorial_

Okay, I don't know the source, but this statistic seems reasonable to me. In
fact, I'd venture to add a couple more (based purely on my anecdotal
experience):

\- One out of two students can't structure a well-reasoned argument.

\- One out of two students are unable to write a readable essay.

\- One out of two students do not know how to prepare for and deliver a
speech.

My problem is not the state of State Colleges. The problem is the state of
highschools in America (although we are not unique with respect to some of
these problems). These are all skills that can and should be learnt before
college.

------
zach
Talking about "college" as a mere experience, drained of its knowledge value,
reduces its significance to being a social club of sorts. You make friends,
you signify some kind of status to potential superiors, and so on.

I don't think many people take this kind of mercenary view of college outside
of the Bush family, and maybe it's a more realistic view, but that's the
perspective that seems to be in play when the question is whether it's "worth
it."

~~~
natrius
_"you signify some kind of status to potential superiors"_

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I think this is why the vast majority of
people go to college.

------
andylei
wait; has anyone considered this: college is fun.

~~~
Oompa
It's educational and gives you a place you could meet future co-founders as
well. I feel like people look at college from a purely educational
perspective, which isn't exactly correct. If you're going to college just for
the education, you're in the wrong place, if you ask me.

~~~
chrischen
Then again then college isn't the _only_ way you can do those things. Perhaps
if college didn't exist, there could be something filling the void that's not
only more efficient at educating, but at fulfilling those things too.

~~~
Oompa
This is very true. However, just because college does exist doesn't mean
something better can't show up. It seems to me college is the best place to
get all of these things in the same place quickly.

------
Volscio
I went to college, didn't take it as seriously as I should have (dotcom
daytrading era) and joined the Army afterwards. I really would have gotten
more out of college if I'd gone into the Army first. Saw a lot of young 18
year olds who did it right and are now in college... Grad school was a far
better experience for me...

------
balding_n_tired
Winemaking is a perfectly reasonable major, unless you want to close down all
the A&Ms in the country. UIUC, the University of Maryland, no doubt many other
schools have excellent computer science departments within smelling distance
of barns.

------
wensing
I'm fairly convinced that college will be obsolete by the time my children are
old enough to attend. World shrinking fast, and don't forget about smart
siblings.

------
bjoernw
Statistically there is so much wrong with this infographic.

~~~
trimski
For curiosity's sake, could you provide some examples?

------
hamidp
College is totally worthless. Everyone is the very smart entrepreneurial type
like we all of course are, and already posses the vast majority of skills that
they'll ever need in life. Indeed, college for them would be nothing more than
nights spent alone in their dorm room working on their next failed startup and
leaving comments around the Internet about how much more successful they'd be
if they stayed out of college. Man, now if only they could get invited to a
party or talk to a girl.

