
Ryan Carson responds to Paul Graham on startup hubs - ag
http://www.carsonified.com/fowa/response-to-paul-graham-on-startup-hubs
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pg
_How can we get to that critical level of support here in Europe if we always
have people saying everyone should move to Silicon Valley?_

I was more concerned with saying something true than saying something that
would encourage startups in a particular region. I agree entirely that saying
startups will do equally well anywhere would encourage startups in Europe. If
Carson in turn agrees that this statement, though encouraging, is false, then
we'll have settled our differences.

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henning
There's only one way to _really_ settle this. MORTAL KOMBAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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wschroter
I've been hearing a lot of talk about entrepreneurs moving AWAY from Silicon
Valley too due to the overwhelming competition for talent and sky-high cost of
living. Not to suggest SV is going away, but I wonder if you'll start seeing
some activity in "tier two" cities that have solid infrastructure. I'm
thinking Raliegh/RTP for example. Even Google is exporting some of it's
operations to make finding talent easier. Again, not refuting the importance
of SV, but wondering if there is an opportunity to build elsewhere with
similar resources being exported.

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Elfan
The Silicon Valley Leadership Group actually ranked Silicon Valley at the
bottom of their technology hub list for reasons such as you suggest. The NC
Research triangle was first.

[http://blog.usweb.com/archives/silicon-valley-last-among-
tec...](http://blog.usweb.com/archives/silicon-valley-last-among-tech-hubs/)

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danw
I think Ryan and PG have a different idea of what startups are. PG said in
response to a question at FOWA that he was talking about startups designed for
acquisition by the likes of Google. Acquisition is much easier where there are
big established companies to network with. Ryan on the other hand seems to be
talking about bootstrapping and building to last, which doesn't depend on the
benefits of SV as much.

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pg
I certainly did not say that. What I said was that if there was no exit, it
wasn't a startup. IPO is also a form of exit.

But the conclusion here is also false: you need bold and intelligent investors
even more to build a long-lasting startup like Google.

~~~
danw
My bad, I must have missunderstood what you said.

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menloparkbum
Carson's arguments aren't very strong. However, I do wonder how a small team
based in europe could move to Silicon Valley with no money and legally be
allowed to work in the country.

I'm interested in hearing how YC works out the visa situation for teams based
outside of the USA. We have had to pass on a number of awesome applicants
because of visa problems. However, we do have a couple indispensible hackers
based in Europe, and had to set up a (somewhat) complicated system of small
european based companies so that we can bring them over to work for 3-5 months
at a time.

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hugh
For the most part though, I suspect that for most non-US-citizen
entrepreneurs, the question "Should I move to Silicon Valley?" is a bit like
the questions "Should I grow a pair of wings on my back?" or "Should I enlist
the Loch Ness Monster as a cofounder?" It might be nice to do it, but given
the difficulty of getting a visa as an entrepreneur, it's not really an
option.

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pg
We've had a bunch who've done it. Heysan, Buxfer, and Auctomatic were all
founded entirely by non-US citizens, along with several others that haven't
launched yet.

If you raise a certain level of investment, you can stay in the US. I don't
know the details; it varies depending on where you're from and where you raise
the money.

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shiro
I don't know what those YCers done, but I think raising enough capital to get
E-2 investor visa would be the surest way now. It used to be possible to go
through H1B before, but it became too tight. The actual amount of money you
need to raise depends on each case; I've heard a rumor about something like
$100K minimum, though it may also depend on the immigration lawyer to handle
it. Absolute requirement is to show that you have a prospect to be big and
hire lots of US citizens eventually.

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nanijoe
You need to understand Carson's position on this matter...He is trying to
build up Europe as a startup hub, then someone walks in and tells his audience
that there is a better startup hub. Ouch!!

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menloparkbum
Actually, his position is that he makes money arranging web 2.0 conferences in
London. How's he going to make money if all the "entrepreneurs" leave for
silicon valley?

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comatose_kid
He arranges web 2.0 conferences in the Bay Area too....

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skell
Ryan raises some decent points, but I have to side with Paul on this one. If
you want to -maximize- your startup's chance for success, moving out to SV (or
other big hubs) would be the most logical choice. This doesn't mean your
startup won't have a shot elsewhere, but he's just calling it as he sees it.
What yields the best results is typically what people want to hear when it
comes to getting advice.

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mulcher
Europe is ass-backwards in some sense.. they need to take more risks and
foster a risk taking community.. It has a lot of pluses, but many minuses..
Every young person from the continent typically moves to London to work and
make their money.

Also, about mobile.. Europe has had mobile for a lot longer than the US.. yet
it takes Apple releasing the iPhone to begin to unleash its true power??

Interestingly some of the biggest investors in the tech boom and the housing
bubble were UK and European institutions.. So the money is there.. it just
needs to be redirected locally...

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zach
"There's way too much pressure in the web app industry to be the next $100
million dollar company. Screw that."

Well, that basically _has_ to be your attitude if you can't rely upon angel
support, meeting deal-makers, or follow-on capital.

So you'll do just as well... as long as you turn a profit quickly, you're not
interested in being acquired before that, and you're not shooting for a large
market? Not terribly inspiring.

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run4yourlives
>as long as you turn a profit quickly

Starting businesses that don't have this objective is how we got into the
bubble mess of dot-com in the first place.

If this isn't your objective, you should find something else to work on.

~~~
zach
How many years was it before Google started running ads? And let's not even
talk about biotech.

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Mistone
there was an excellent article published in Foreign Affairs last year on the
topic of Entrepreneurial Economies, written by Carl Schramm, author and CEO at
Kauffman Institute.

the article is unfortunately not freely distributed and requires a
subscription fee to access it.

The concept of hubs is central to his thesis. He basically argues that the key
requirements for an industry hub are: large companies for R&D and M&A,
Research Universities for research and tech transfer, Investment Groups for
access to capital, and knowledge workers with applicable skills.

In the web/tech space there is no argument that SV provides the right mix of
resources and is the leading technology hub.

Where the EU and metro regions in the US can improve is increasing the
linkages between these groups and thus making it easier for entreps to succeed
there.

Many of the examples Ryan provided in his post are examples of the progress
that has been made in Europe.

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ag
I think PG is right. Ryan Carson wishful thinking is not going make it better.
I due however think that Europe has an opportunity to attract hackers from
everywhere (due to USA VISA policies) and build a vibrant startup community.

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scylla
It's even harder to move to Europe as an entrepreneur for someone who is
neither in the US or EU.

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ag
You're right, that's why i think european policy makers need to change that

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davidw
European policy makers - or at least the ones I've been exposed to - generally
have their heads pretty far up their asses in terms of the modern world. The
nordic countries seem to do things a little better, however, they have some
fairly strong reasons to not throw open the borders. Citizenship in those
countries is the most valuable thing a lot of the poorer people own.

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zaidf
pg cares more about the immediate success of the entrepreneur.

Carson cares more about developing new Silicon Valleys.

They're both right, but as an entrepreneur, I know who I should be listening
to.

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run4yourlives
pg cares about making money for YC. He does a lot of good things to do that
but let's not forget that is his goal.

Carson is trying to become a pg of Europe.

Take both in measured amounts.

~~~
pg
We get equity. We can literally only make money if founders make way more.

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rippon
They are arguing different points.

The first point being that startups do best in Silicon Valley. The second
point being that startups can succeed elsewhere (Europe).

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eusman
London and Paris will never become competitive startup hubs for the most
simplest and most important reason, the climate!

Everybody loves sun and beaches!

~~~
menloparkbum
Er... what beach do people in Palo Alto go to? Santa Cruz? Pacifica? The
beaches in the Bay Area are FREEZING COLD.

The beaches near Boston, whilst disgusting, are actually much warmer and
beach-like in the summer than the beaches in NorCal ever are.

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dfranke
> The beaches in the Bay Area are FREEZING COLD.

Eh, they're quite cold but not unbearable. Trust me, I know -- I've swum from
Alcatraz to SF :-)

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menloparkbum
so have I - it was freezing cold. :P

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wmeredith
I hope he's right b/c I'm stuck in Kansas City (Not really stuck, I just love
it here.)

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stevens93
Ryan Carson doth protest too much, methinks.

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rokhayakebe
Why can't we be friends?

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curi
He said it himself. He's not replying b/c he's got a good point, he's replying
b/c he's angry -- his blood is boiling.

