
AP: South Korea covered up mass abuse, killings of 'vagrants' - coloneltcb
http://bigstory.ap.org/urn:publicid:ap.org:c22de3a565fe4e85a0508bbbd72c3c1b
======
sna1l
I wasn't alive in the 80s, but it blows my mind that South Korea was a
military dictatorship. I know this is common news to most people outside the
West, but I think it is good that in this day of fast communication and very
few places to hide, that tough information like this comes out, so we can deal
with it and learn from our horrible mistakes. Not all saying I'm glad this
happen, but at the very least, I hope we can all learn something from it.

~~~
contingencies
_it blows my mind that South Korea was a military dictatorship_

Why? China, Japan, Vietnam, and Taiwan all derive their political cultures
primarily from Confucianism, a strongly hierarchical system that modern
commentators would probably, if it could be seen undoctored today, describe as
a dictatorship. North Korea, a personality cult with similar structure,
persists.

At the same time, in the 1980s, nearby Taiwan was also a dictatorship of the
Nationalist Chinese army and was also supported if not set up by the US. They
stopped off in Burma to grow heroin and prop up a military dictatorship there
along the way. In the last few years, the US has basically let the dictators
out of prosecution to counter growing regional Chinese influence which was
formerly set to dominate the country. Singapore is widely accused of setting
up its stock market explicitly to launder the drug revenues, and still has -
and indeed probably only exists today - because of major US support.

Vietnam is the only really strong story of the lot, repulsing an attack from
China after kicking out the French and Americans and re-asserting its
independence, then removing another dictatorship (Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge) from
Cambodia in 1978.

~~~
nickpsecurity
Cambodia had help from U.S. on Khmer Rouge, too. Marcinko, SEAL 6 founder,
covers his time training them to fight Khmer Rouge in his book Rogue Warrior.
Far as Vietnam, I agree that their resolve was impressive. I just don't recall
it going the way you described with instead them splitting up with one side
backing communist imperialists and the other capitalist imperialists. They
fell for the games plenty enough but resisted a lot, too.

The one with most potential is probably Singapore given what they've
accomplished in a short time. They just need a cultural shift to get them out
of this conformist, nationalist, factory-worker mentality. They could become a
hub of not only trustworthy business in Asia but innovation or quality-focused
business too. The reactionaries are doing everything they can to prevent that,
though, as it will threaten their power.

~~~
contingencies
_Cambodia had help from U.S. on Khmer Rouge, too._

Never heard of this but it no doubt pales in comparison to Vietnam's "remove
them with a land army" commitment.

 _I just don 't recall it going the way you described with instead them
splitting up with one side backing communist imperialists and the other
capitalist imperialists. They fell for the games plenty enough but resisted a
lot, too._

Any way you look at it Ho Chi Minh was brilliant military tactician and
strategist who drew from both ancient Chinese and modern western military
philosophy to lead his people to independence. I'd argue that the use of
socialism was probably not as significant (versus other options of wartime
economies) as commonly thought. It was useful, however, to get diplomatic
support and military hardware from allies such as Russia and China. I don't
think it greatly shaped Vietnam, which is now very capitalist, just like China
and Singapore, two other nominally 'communist' party-led modern Asian nations.

~~~
nickpsecurity
Not as strong on the history part to know about remove them with land army.
However, I agree Ho Chi Minh was brilliant at strategy. Far as our opponents
go, I particularly was impressed with whoever realized that Americans would
likely pull out if they saw enough messed up stuff on TV. That's one of
reasons they started doing stuff near places like churches. It was a brutal
strategy but it worked quite to their advantage. They proved America didn't
have the guts to keep up a war against Vietnamese. Many couldn't even watch
one.

~~~
refurb
A big part of why North Vietnam succeed in winning the war was the ability to
send a steady supply of solider into the grinder. Somewhere between 500K and
1M North Vietnamese soldiers died during the war. And that's not even
including the war with the French prior.

Not unlike WW2 for the Soviets.

------
HillRat
"[A former principal] said severe violence and military-style discipline were
the only ways to run a place filled with thousands of unruly people who didn't
want to be there."

And the lessons of Nuremberg go unheeded again. Dear God, I hope there's
standing for an ACTA claim, since it's damned certain ROK isn't going to try
and make this inhumanity right again.

~~~
hasenj
> the lessons of Nuremberg

Mind elaborating on that to people (like me) not deeply familiar with European
history?

~~~
reitanqild
My takeaway from learning about Nürnberg was that everyone is responsible for
their own actions and you are guilty even if you "just"followed orders.

~~~
13of40
What if you're under duress, which everyone in the military basically is at
all times? (Nowadays, you typically have the right to refuse an order if you
know it's illegal, but I doubt that was the case in the SS in 1944.)

~~~
onion2k
When it comes to committing a crime against humanity such as the mass murder
of civilians, you're expected to refuse the order _even if it means being
killed for doing so._ Self-preservation is not a reasonable excuse for
committing a war crime, and it never has been.

~~~
13of40
OK, but try explaining that to an 18-year-old kid whose buddy / father figure
/ platoon sergeant has a gun to his head. Difficulty: You get to be an
anonymous intellectual half a world away who might not ever find out if he
makes the wrong choice. I think I can pull up 20 or 30 million data points
from the last century that say it's an unrealistic expectation.

~~~
reitanqild
I think judges see that.

Not everyone was given death penalty in Nürnberg either.

I _think_ the most important fact was they ruled that "just following orders"
wasn't a blanket excuse.

------
thomjrob
I was under the impression this wasn't exactly hidden knowledge.

South Korean cinema has made movies on it. The South Korean intelligence
agency involved even renamed itself and has had some powers stripped because
of it (and other reasons).

I guess it's just not that well known in the west.

~~~
21
I am a pretty informed EU person, and I had no idea South Korea was a military
dictatorship so recent. If I think about it, I don't know anything about that
region regarding the 80s.

What is described here is worse that what happened behind the Iron Curtain at
the same time, in terms of numbers at least (more people tortured).

~~~
sho_hn
Yeah, it's stunning how little we learn about Asia in European schools. The
"I'm a pretty informed EU person" attitude is part of the problem -- how many
of the countries on the top 30 economies list have you actually ever read the
History Wikipedia article of? Why not?

~~~
crdoconnor
That's propaganda for you. 80% of it is simply emphasizing certain stories and
ignoring others.

North Koreans have probably heard this story.

~~~
sho_hn
Talking to South Koreans about the PCH era is very difficult. It quickly leads
to agitation, even if you pose no reason for it - no matter their opinion,
people seem to feel put on the defensive (or offensive, sometimes). The
opinion you get to hear often seems to be their Official Family Opinion. It's
tends to be either very pro ("Korea made so much progress in that time") or
very con ("a monster"). It varies regionally, too - people from down South in
Gyeongsang tend to think differently on average than native Seoulites, say.

Here's a bunch of interesting stuff:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Uprising](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Uprising)
is a key point in history.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHu39FEFIks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHu39FEFIks)
is a recent politically-charged South Korean pop song. It's (intentionally
paradoxically) interpreted by a young girl, but it was penned by an older,
male composer. The lyrics are superficially waxing nostalgic about the
Sogyeokdong district of Seoul, however during the times shown in flashbacks in
the video, this used to be the location of the HQ of the Korean Defense
Command, which ran a "School Greening Project" arresting and interrogating
students believed to be activists in the democratization movement, and trying
to turn them into informants. Several died. So when the girl sings "Do you
remember Sogyeokdong? It hasn't changed at all ..." it's biting sarcasm. The
music video directly features related events, including the haunting, eerie
curfew sirens and government broadcasts about the SGP.

If you want to do some serious learning, this is a very good book:
[http://www.amazon.com/The-Park-Chung-Hee-
Transformation/dp/0...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Park-Chung-Hee-
Transformation/dp/0674072316)

Disclaimer: I'm a German citizen living in Seoul, and I enjoy life here very
much and am crazy-fond of the country and many of its people. Yet it's a very
complicated place, in particular its 20th century history.

------
differentView
Off topic, but when a story involves multiple people with the same surname,
they really should write out their full names at all times instead of just
"Park" or "Kim".

~~~
nickbauman
Kim and Park are kinda like Smith and Jones in the Anglo world. I suspect it's
not the real names.

~~~
khuey
Even more so. Something like 20% of Koreans are surnamed Kim. Park is another
8% or so.

~~~
mc32
Apparently people used to buy in to more prestigious family names which lead
to whittling down of Korean surnames.

------
ddt_Osprey
From the article:

    
    
      [The Brothers Home, a mountainside 
      institution] got government subsidies 
      based on its number of inmates, so it 
      pushed police to round up more vagrants, 
      the early probe found. And police officers 
      were often promoted depending on how many 
      vagrants they picked up.
    

Oh, so, kind of like this:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal)

Right?

~~~
jessaustin
IMHO "cash for kids" was small potatoes compared to the Drug War. The prison-
industrial complex has to eat, and it only eats two things: money and human
lives. One would expect this behavior, to some extent, anywhere there are
prisons.

~~~
solotronics
we have the EFF for digital rights, is there something similar fighting on the
side of individuals in the drug war? NORML I guess..

~~~
jessaustin
Perhaps the best comparison is LEAP [0], although given the fact that most
prominent members got their pension before joining I'd understand if someone
were a bit suspicious. Actually I'm suspicious of non-profits in general. Non-
profits have much more often created rather than ended awful laws. I
appreciate those who advocate in principled fashion without hiring lawyers,
accountants, and marketers.

[0] [http://www.leap.cc/](http://www.leap.cc/)

------
beedogs
Add another reason to the massive pile of reasons I avoid everything to do
with the Olympics, and have for 20 years. They get neither my attention nor my
money.

~~~
pessimizer
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlatelolco_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlatelolco_massacre)

It's a movement.

------
awinter-py
One more argument against militarization of the police force. We should
recruit cops from the communities they serve, set a minimum age, disarm them,
and emphasize negotiation skills over SWAT training.

------
nxzero
Reading this is hard.

It's graphic, shocking, and makes you wish you didn't read it.

I don't know what else to say.

------
disposeofnick9
It should come as no shock that, right now, the elderly in South Korea lack
social security in absolute squalor and dignity. Most are abandoned by their
families and left alone to kill themselves, usually by jumping off a bridge.
There is some occassional food assistance, but there is rarely enough to go
around.

------
known
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_minority](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_minority)
should go and live in separate country

------
kloggian
As a South Korean, I can firmly say that this is propaganda. The country's
rapid and flourishing economic growth is due to the military dictatorship.(You
can see historical charts for the evidence) Before any of them, the system was
so chaotic. The "so-called" dictators unified the people to have a sense of
patriotism that eventually gave them the incentive to work hard and live
strong. They were also the people who stood against the North Korean spies
that intentionally tried to infiltrate into the system with Marxist
ideologies. The leaders during that time are still the most respected people
in all Korean history. Even during the most notorious Jun-doo-hwan period the
economy rapidly progressed.

Unfortunately, during president Kim-Dae-Joong's period, people twisted history
and defamed the previous dictators with propaganda. This president was the
person who won Korea's first novel peace prize for funding North Korea with
billions of dollars. This money was eventually used for building the nuclear
bombs. Yet, many people still think of this as a great feat. In truth, it is
shameful.

~~~
yongjik
As a South Korean, you're full of shit.

Dictator Rhee Syngman was a fine murder who left us with, among other
atrocities, this:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre)

Dictator Park Chung-hee was killed by his own aide (Kim Jae-gyu), while
drinking with his servants, when Kim somehow snapped and decided Park should
no longer live, for the sake of the country. Another aide (Cha Ji-cheol), also
killed by Kim, reportedly remarked shortly before the shooting:

> "캄보디아에 서는 300만 명 정도를 죽이고도 까딱 없었는데 우리도 데모대원 1∼200만 명 정도 죽인다고 까딱 있겠읍니까?"
> (Cambodia was fine after killing 3 millions. What's the problem if we kill a
> million or two of those demonstrators?)

Oh, years before he became a dictator, Park was also a member of the Southern
Labor Party (남조선로동당), a secret communist organization that worked toward a
Marxist revolution in South Korea. Make of that what you will.

Dictator Chun Doo-whan came to power by shooting his own people:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Uprising](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Uprising)

Among his other crimes, he's also credited with Samchung Educational Camp
(삼청교육대), which basically committed the same crimes reported in the "Brothers
Home" in the article, but in a national scale.

Oh, by the way, Kim Young-Sam, who was a president (from a conservative party)
before Kim Dae-joong, spent 3.2 billion dollars on North Korea... due to an
international agreement (including the US and Japan) on building nuclear
reactors in North Korea in exchange of NK giving up its nuclear arsenals. See:
[https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A1%B0%EC%84%A0%EB%AF%BC%EC...](https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A1%B0%EC%84%A0%EB%AF%BC%EC%A3%BC%EC%A3%BC%EC%9D%98%EC%9D%B8%EB%AF%BC%EA%B3%B5%ED%99%94%EA%B5%AD%EC%9D%98_%EC%9B%90%EC%9E%90%EB%A0%A5_%EB%B0%9C%EC%A0%84)

> 재원분담협상 결과 대한민국은 실 공사비의 70 %를 원화로 기여(46억 달러 기준으로 3조 5,420억원)하고 ...

Apparently, the difference from Kim Dae-jung's "Sunshine policy" is that under
conservative governments, we only do the paying, and let the US decide
everything on how to handle the situation. It's supposed to make us feel more
secure.

~~~
yongjik
By the way, one more thing:

In 1973, Park Chung-hee also tried to murder Kim Dae-jung, then a prominent
opposition leader. Korean government agents kidnapped Kim in Japan (which
predictably blew up into a big diplomatic scandal), and dragged him into a
boat, blindfolded and bound, ready to throw him into water once they're far
enough from the shore.

But somehow a ship or an airplane intervened. (It seems there are many
conflicting accounts. Some say it was a ship from Japanese coast guards; Kim
apparently remembers that the crew cried "There's an airplane!") Several
sources say that CIA discovered Kim's kidnapping and alerted the Japanese
government.

So, most likely CIA saved Kim Dae-jung from being murdered by Park. I'm
usually not a fan of American foreign policy, but in this one case, I'm
thoroughly grateful.

* It seems there's uncertainty on whether Park ordered the murder, or if it was planned by some overzealous officer. Well, they're all dead now, so we'll never know...

