
Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa - Element_
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/electric-car-with-massive-range-in-demo-by-phinergy-alcoa-1.2664653
======
marvin
I hate being a naysayer - this is cool technology - but the energy economics
won't work out for metal-air batteries if they're used as the main power
source. Recharging a metal-air battery is grossly inefficient, and a big part
of the advantage with electric cars is that they use less energy in every step
of the process except initial manufacturing. This means that the _general_
economics of metal-air batteries will not work out either, because the system
requires a physical supply chain that is much more expensive to build out than
the electricity distribution network that already exists. Add to this that
range anxiety is for the most part eliminated with >60kWh electric vehicles,
and this is a no-starter.

Where metal-air batteries _could_ have a place, is as a trickle charging
device that will be replaced only rarely, perhaps during an annual checkup,
and used as a backup only on the few occasions where fast charging is
unavailable or unwanted. But battery vehicle companies are onto this idea
already - the Tesla Model S has space for what some suspect is in fact an
upgrade slot where a metal-air trickle charging battery can be installed.

The problem is, most mainstream news articles writing about progress in
battery-electric vehicles are already far behind the state of the art. Tesla's
innovation and execution in this space has largely removed range anxiety for
all but a small (<5%) number of trips, and already have a very strong quick
charging presence in multiple countries. The future is electric and is already
here - most people just haven't noticed.

~~~
esbonsa
"... and a big part of the advantage with electric cars is that they use less
energy in every step of the process except initial manufacturing."

The most important part for me for electric cars is the simpler power-train
system which is less likely to break... which is why i would never buy an
hybrid that has both systems.

~~~
mikeash
Oddly, hybrids seem to be really reliable, despite the additional stuff to
break. Priuses get top marks for reliability. I'm not sure why, but I imagine
it comes down to the electric stuff being extremely reliable due to the nature
of the beast, and the gasoline end being treated more nicely (more consistent
RPMs and throttle settings, no idling, not being used at all for a substantial
fraction of your miles) more than compensates for the tiny increase in
potential failures from adding the electric system. Also consider that there
is essentially no transmission in the more advanced hybrids, which removes a
potentially expensive breakage that regular gas cars are subject to.

~~~
esbonsa
top marks where? I don't see it... here is one source:
[http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/02/12/used-
car...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/02/12/used-cars-less-
dependable-jdpower/5403139/)

~~~
mikeash
I didn't have any specific source in mind when I made that comment, it's just
something I've seen in general. To double-check, I did a Google search for
"most reliable used cars", then clicked on the first five links that didn't
involve a price ceiling. Four out of five listed the Prius as being among the
most reliable. For reference, here are the links I found:

[https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/car-dealer-
scientifi...](https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/car-dealer-scientific-
guide-10-best-used-vehicles-181842236.html)

[http://www.forbes.com/pictures/ehmk45iidj/toyota-
prius-2/](http://www.forbes.com/pictures/ehmk45iidj/toyota-prius-2/)

[http://editorial.autos.msn.com/18-most-dependable-cars-on-
th...](http://editorial.autos.msn.com/18-most-dependable-cars-on-the-road-1#2)

[http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/best-used-
cars-2013.html](http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/best-used-cars-2013.html)

[http://wallstcheatsheet.com/automobiles/10-most-
dependable-c...](http://wallstcheatsheet.com/automobiles/10-most-dependable-
cars-on-the-road.html/?a=viewall) (This is the one without a Prius, but even
this one has a hybrid on the list in the form of the Volt.)

Anecdotally, I seem to see a disproportionate number of the original Prius on
the road still, despite only selling 54,000 of them in the US, and being over
a decade old at this point. That could, of course, just be confirmation bias
or local demographics.

------
scythe
So I've posted this before, but aluminum smelting is just plain old too hard
for this to be as cheap as batteries. I mean, it's great if you're Alcoa, an
aluminium smelter, but let's take a look at bulk prices:

Aluminium costs $1.80/kg:
[http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=aluminum](http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=aluminum)

Alumina, the product of the aluminium-air reaction, costs ~$0.45/kg:
[http://www.indexmundi.com/en/commodities/minerals/bauxite_an...](http://www.indexmundi.com/en/commodities/minerals/bauxite_and_alumina/bauxite_and_alumina_t6.html)

The cost of refining aluminum from ore, _in bulk_ , is therefore >$1.35/kg
(otherwise, Alcoa would be cleaning up on the commodities market). The cost of
a 3000km battery with 100kg of aluminium is therefore $135, or roughly 4.4
cents per kilometer, or 7 cents per mile.

That's nearly as expensive as gasoline, _going off of commodity metal prices
and assuming absolutely no overhead or profit margin_. That's not to mention
the environmental consequences of aluminium refining w.r.t. the massive amount
of energy therefor required.

It's impressive tech, but it's not feasible. The Hall-Héroult process has been
the subject of intense scientific scrutiny for over 100 years; everyone and
their brother has tried to make it more efficient: _we use aluminium for
everything_. Aluminium is not going to get any easier, barring massive
breakthroughs in fusion energy and/or the Second Coming.

EDIT: Originally my calculated cents/mile was off by a factor of 10. However,
the latter point, "nearly as expensive as gasoline", stands: it costs $250 for
a gas car to drive 3000 km, at 30 mpg and $4/gallon. I didn't notice the error
because I used this latter comparison rather than figuring out gasoline's
cents/mile.

~~~
stcredzero
_Aluminium is not going to get any easier, barring massive breakthroughs in
fusion energy and /or the Second Coming._

How about vast solar thermal plants in the Sahara?

~~~
trhway
that would lead to even better thing - silicon-air cells :)

~~~
stcredzero
Power being one of the big expenses, materials for smelting are often shipped
to where there is power.

------
alephnil
The reaction used by is not reversible, so the alumimium in the battery will
be consumed, and the battery is not rechargeable. This is only said implicitly
in the article. Thus this is more a fuel cell, using aluminium as fuel.

~~~
jccooper
It's not reversible in the car, but it is reversible in an aluminum smelter.
The power cell is turning the metal into aluminum oxide, which is (mostly) how
we find Al in its ore form.

So once you burn it out, it gets shipped back to Alcoa and they treat it like
some nice clean ore and shortly turn it back into metallic Al. Which is not
entirely energy-cheap, but at current prices of less than $1/lb isn't too bad.

You can see where Alcoa would like such a process.

I don't know if the idea of a high-density consumable backup power supply will
take off, but it's not a terrible idea until real batteries get much better.

~~~
kashkhan
with that definition of recycling even gasoline is recyclable in plants :)

~~~
darkmighty
You can also synthesize gasoline with water + co2 + energy, not unlike this
battery, but the global efficiency is very low (US navy is considering using
it in nuclear powered ships for jet fuel iirc). The thermalization of the fuel
(i.e. Carnot cycle) is also a significant limiter.

------
TrainedMonkey
"Because the car would still rely on its regular rechargable lithium-ion
battery most of the time and would switch to the aluminum-air battery as a
backup only if the lithium-ion battery ran out, and because most car trips are
50 kilometres or less, Alcoa estimates the aluminum-air batteries would only
need to be changed about once a year."

This is a chemical battery with very limited lifespan. Additionally without
any details on recycling of used batteries "green" qualities of this battery
are suspect.

~~~
dojomouse
It's highly recyclable. Aluminium oxide (the result of the reaction in the
battery) is one of the feedstocks for industrial aluminium smelting.
Recyclable isn't necessarily the same as 'efficient' or 'a good idea' though.
It's energy intensive (haven't checked the efficiency of 'recharging'), and
additionally has, as a byproduct, massive amounts of CO2 even before
considering CO2 emitted in generating the electricity required for the
smelting process.

I can't see how that a single use battery like this (which also needs swap
infrastructure) has any net advantage over the rechargable swappable packs +
fast chargers as Tesla use.

Maybe it could have applications in aerospace where existing lithium ion cells
don't have sufficient energy density to even come close to a viable solution.
But you'd want to compare it to other 'single use' options like synfuel.

~~~
jff
This particular smelter uses hydroelectric power, mentioned in the article.

~~~
marvin
Moot point, unfortunately. Hydropower displaces fossil energy if the nearby
energy markets are halfway deregulated and efficient.

~~~
zurn
Unless you're Iceland, with more geothermal and hydro than you know wat to do
wit, and too far away from civilization. One of the largest aluminum exporters
in the world.

------
abalone
Doesn't aluminum smelting use crazy amounts of electricity and emit
significant greenhouse gases? So not only would we be doing that, we'd also
have to ship these 220 lb modules back to the smelters every 1,000 miles?

Is there anybody advocating for this besides aluminum smelters?

~~~
lotsofmangos
Read article. The smelter they are using is hydroelectric and the 1000 miles
air battery range is only used on long journeys as mostly the car runs on
lithium.

~~~
fancyketchup
I think... you might want to read up on aluminum smelting, which converts
alumina (Al2O3) into aluminum (Al). The process involves passing a large
current between two graphite (carbon) electrodes via the alumina.

Al2O3 + carbon => Al + CO2

Edit: I can only guess that the down votes are for not providing a source?
Here you go:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_smelting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_smelting)

It doesn't matter if the smelter runs on fairy dust or hippie juice. Reducing
aluminum oxide to aluminum produces CO2 no matter the energy source.

~~~
scotty79
It seems that you can significantly reduce carbon emissions of aluminum
smelting if you use energy source that does not emit carbon dioxide.

From [http://aluminium.org.au/climate-change/smelting-
greenhouse-p...](http://aluminium.org.au/climate-change/smelting-greenhouse-
performance)

The smelting of aluminium is a very energy intensive process – and over 80 per
cent of smelting greenhouse gas emissions are indirect (electricity-related)
emissions. The remaining emissions come from direct (on-site) emissions plus
the emissions associated with the production of alumina.

~~~
abalone
That's true but the direct emissions are still very substantial. It only seems
small in comparison because smelting uses _so much electricity_ to begin with.

------
akouts
I worked at a large automotive manufacturer in near Detroit a number of years
ago when they were considering whether or not to design and manufacture an
electric vehicle. The had engaged in full "well to wheels" analysis of
potential designs as well as that of competitors and concluded that the energy
economics never made sense. That analysis considered how "carbon expensive" it
is to spin up manufacturing, manufacture, service and operate a vehicle going
all the way back to raw materials sourcing. They felt more optimistic about
diesel hybrids but also chose not to pursue that. I find it unfortunate that
we don't see a more standardized process for conducting full "well to wheels"
analysis that takes into account the full life cycle of a designs,
manufacturing and product lifecycle. Would be awesome if a consumer watchdog
group existed that had the access and technical competence needed to audit
these technologies.

------
trhway
metal-air batteries (fuel cells), rechargeable and not, is the future. Having
comparable to gasoline energy density, yet higher efficiency - 60-90% vs. 30%
of gasoline, it will transform cars and especially planes (subsonic ones). You
can imagine that it is absolutely not an issue to replace a 100Kg spent
aluminum fuel cell block on a small plane at airport. It would also be better
than gas turbine for bigger commercial, though still propeller driven, planes
(for pure jets the issue is that you need air to be hot to have high exhaust
speed for the plane to reach speeds beyond 450+ knots). Interesting
possibility for decreasing heat signature for military subsonic drones too :)

There is also very active development for rechargeable metal-air batteries
though currently it is significantly skewed toward lithium-air which is non-
starter pretty much. There is very promising results with zinc, sodium and
especially potassium -air batteries.

~~~
nardi
But what's the efficiency of the Hall–Héroult process? [1]

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall-
Héroult_process](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall-Héroult_process)

~~~
trhway
my bet actually is on potassium-air. The known and projected configurations of
such batteries would most probably contain organic/aprotic electrolyte, so it
is pretty nasty/flammable inside, yet they are rechargeable and availability
and cost of components and efficiency seems to beat other commodity materials
based schemas.

------
stcredzero
Doesn't so much feel like a battery than a new kind of chemical reactor that
oxidizes aluminum plates. More like a "Shipstone" from Robert Heinlein's
science fiction stories. You can't charge it at home, you just get it from the
factory and use it up, except that it holds over an order of magnitude more
power for the weight. 3000 mile range? I hope it doesn't have an easily
reached state where it can release all of that energy at once.

~~~
beloch
First, it was 3000 kilometers, not miles.

Second, the energy source is the oxidization of Aluminum. It takes specific
preparation (e.g. thermite) to release that all at once. The contents of this
"battery" are as safe as carrying around a bunch of crumpled up beer cans
(very safe) and whatever the heck that solvent is (unknown). The solvent may
be toxic, acidic, etc. but hopefully no worse than what's in your car battery,
which is actually pretty nasty but not terribly dangerous unless you
deliberately try to make it so (e.g. by shorting out the terminals).

Aluminum is currently under $2K/1000kg, so the yearly aluminum battery
replacement would probably run a few hundred dollars. Aluminum is the most
abundant metal on earth and this reaction is reversible, so costs should stay
low. The real cost is likely to be the solvent.

~~~
nardi
> Aluminum is the most abundant metal on earth

Not technically true, since almost all natural aluminum exists in oxide form,
not metal. The process of turning Al2O3 into metallic Aluminum is incredibly
energy intensive, requiring temperatures of over 1,000 degrees Celsius and
some seriously heinous chemicals (HF among them).

------
venomsnake
Chances of the magical electrolyte that removes the corundum being mercury
based?

------
scotty79
Any chance of popping this kind of battery into laptop and running it for few
days before replace is needed?

Also, could it power sensor that wirelessly communicates gathered data from
time to time for extended periods of time?

------
hardoncollider
Anybody else notice in their demo video, that the car is pulling to the side
of the road to let semi-trucks pass?

Everything aside, that's quite a deceiving field test, considering they aren't
simulating any type of normal driving pattern.

------
salem
It sounds like this battery would be much more suitable for Tesla's automated
battery swap station. Except you would install it in the frunk/trunk for
longer trips, and ditch the extra weight when you're done.

------
cwt137
Is this technology similar to the Bloom Box, but with Aluminum instead of some
type of ceramic material?

