
The physics of baking good pizza - Tomte
https://arxiv.org/abs/1806.08790
======
numbol
This post encouraged me to make account and leave a comment after couple years
of read-only

/sorry for bad english/

Long ago, in yearly middle-school time I am argue with friends about
optimum(by combined simplicity and taste score) way to bake frozen pizza, and
all about with electric heating oven VS microwave. After some time oven was
chosen, but I thinked that made oven pre-heaten was waste of time and try to
approximate it with longer cooking in just powered oven. I have been tried to
made some calculations with paper and microcalculator. Some years after I
remembered it and understood that I was reinvent some integration stuff.

And pizza was burnt because all of this distraction

~~~
tigershark
1) Frozen pizza is awful 2) To properly bake a pizza you need 350/400 C 3)
Normal electrical ovens arrive to 220/240 C and the pizza becomes dry and
crunchy 4) If you put a frozen pizza in a cold oven it will _always_ be burnt
because by the time the inside is cooked the outside has become overcooked and
burnt 5) Please don’t make me cry writing pizza misadventures :’(

~~~
toomanybeersies
I've actually had some really good frozen pizzas. The best ones I ever had
were actually $4 frozen pizzas from the supermarket that were made in Italy.
I'm not sure how they made a pizza in Italy and shipped it to NZ and managed
to sell it for $4, but they were great, or at least the quattro fromaggio ones
were. The ones with any frozen vegetables like mushrooms were sort of crap,
the mushrooms went all watery.

In my experience with frozen pizza, the ones with less ingredients are better.
Any frozen vegetables will go watery, so your options are really pepperoni or
plain cheese. You want a pizza with a nice thin base

Let the pizza defrost for a little bit with the wrapper off before you put it
in the oven, then blast it in the oven at maximum temperature.

It helps if you put the pizza on a pizza stone or on a rack, rather than on a
tray. If it's on a tray, the bottom tends to get soggy.

~~~
flukus
ALDI has some really good ones for $3AU too, the supreme ones (basically ham,
cheese and capsicum if that counts as supreme) anyway.

I cook from frozen normally, but for a really "gourmet" frozen pizza
experience defrost is completely and stick it under the grill. Wonderful
grilled cheese on top and still a soft fluffy base underneath.

~~~
toomanybeersies
As a recent immigrant to Australia, I'm yet to try the Aldi frozen pizzas. The
3 for $6 ones look good though.

I'm constantly impressed with the quality of Aldi food for how insanely cheap
it is, especially their frozen goods. I can eat well for $5 per day on Aldi
food.

~~~
jwdunne
Same deal in the UK. Some people turn their nose up at it, along with their
fellow German brethren Lidl. I don't see why. Some of the food outright beats
the food from Tesco, where it can sometimes be twice as expensive.

------
chaosbutters314
This paper is so oversimplified.

If you're actually curious in the physics of food, check out the journal of
food engineering. We use much more complex physical models to simulate the
physics of food.

Fun note, this is my job and it is pretty cool to really dig into the science
behind cooking and then apply that to an industrial scale.

~~~
panabee
this is very cool!

1) what's the most helpful physics-based cooking tip most people aren't aware
of?

2) are there efforts in food engineering to apply machine learning to recipes
in the same way some projects are trying to automate other creative functions
like graphic design?

~~~
dsr_
It is a widely-held belief that searing a piece of meat before a slow roast
will seal in the juices. Actual testing reveals this to be completely
incorrect.

Searing (dry, high heat) produces maillard reactions which are responsible for
lots of flavors that we like. So searing is good, but it's better to cook your
meat to just below the temperature you want, then take it out and sear it.
You'll have a more consistent doneness.

~~~
skellera
For anyone looking, this is what most people are now calling a reverse sear.

------
greenpresident
While not as heavy with respect to the physics, this guide goes into all the
detail you could want when it comes to making great pizza at home:

[http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm](http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm)

~~~
codethief
This looks a lot like the (German) recipe I found on [http://www.perfekte-
pizza.de](http://www.perfekte-pizza.de) which I've had _amazing_ results with.

------
Jupe
My Pizza Rules (not that anyone asked, but...)

1\. Don't "Moat" your pizza. The barren expanse of dried sauce and over-sized
crust is the classic sign of "moating" the pizza. Spread the majority of the
toppings as close to the edge as you'd like your crust to be, and reduce the
amount of toppings (cheese, sauce, etc.) at the center. As the pizza cooks,
the crust will rise, and the toppings will naturally flow to the center of the
pie.

2\. Don't use heavy-gluten flour. Some people like chewy (new your deli-style)
pizza - but it has no business on my table.

3\. Let the pizza cool for 2-5 mins before cutting. But, if you cool it for
longer, put it on a rack so the bottom doesn't get soggy.

4\. Never, ever, ever use cheap mozzarella. Especially if you are doing a
sauce-less pizza.

5\. You can put a touch of sugar in the dough, or you can put a touch of sugar
in the sauce, but don't put it in both. Corollary: If you put pineapple or
other sweet toppings on the pie, don't put any sugar in the sauce or dough.

~~~
mahesh_rm
"You can put a touch of sugar in the dough, or you can put a touch of sugar in
the sauce, but don't put it in both. Corollary: If you put pineapple or other
sweet toppings on the pie, don't put any sugar in the sauce or dough."

As an Italian, I feel the urge to jump in here. Sugar in dough is used to
kickoff/boost yeast levitation, while sugar in sauce is used to affect tomato
acidity. In both cases, they are not intended to provide your pizza with a
sweet taste. If for some reasons you like some sweet flavor on your pizza, you
should at least take into account the fact that it comes as a byproduct of
diverse chemical reactions that affect consistency and PH of your pizza in
multiple/subtle ways.

~~~
jacques_chester
The American concept of "a touch of sugar" is different from most places', so
for that audience the advice is pretty sound.

I moved to the USA from Australia. If I want bread that doesn't taste like
cake, I actually have to bake it myself.

~~~
culturestate
As an American who lives abroad...I hear this about American bread _all the
time_ but I've yet to discover what's actually different. Supermarket sandwich
bread is just about the same everywhere.

Perhaps the rest of the world is just used to buying from a bakery, rather
than the supermarket?

~~~
pathsjs
Well, it's the other way round. In Italy supermarkets evolved to contain
bakeries, because otherwise people would not buy supermarket bread. Nowadays
you can find pretty good bread at the supermarket, but it is all fresh

~~~
culturestate
I should probably clarify: by "supermarket bread" I mean the pre-wrapped, pre-
sliced stuff you buy from the carb aisle, like Wonderbread. Most American
supermarkets (well, most suburban ones at any rate) also have traditional
bakeries inside.

------
stevewillows
For anybody interested in making pizza at home, /r/pizza is a fantastic
resource.

Making your own pizza is fun and you can make some decent pies with only a
little bit of practice.

For home ovens use bread flour. If you end up getting into making pizza, then
go down the 00 flour + wood fire oven route.. but until then your home oven
can produce some really outstanding pies.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Pizza/wiki/recipe/dough](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pizza/wiki/recipe/dough)

[2]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Pizza/wiki/recipe/sauce](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pizza/wiki/recipe/sauce)

~~~
Larrikin
The reddit probably has decent content, but the community at the pizza making
forum is one of the most dedicated I've seen for something unrelated to gaming
or software. Post have slowed down but it seems like that might be because
they've figured out how to recreate nearly every pizza from every restaurant
you can think of.

[1]
[https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php](https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php)

~~~
stevewillows
PizzaMaking and the sub are basically the two best places. We share a lot of
common members. PizzaMaking has more higher level industry folks along with
some unbelievable hobbyists.

Over the past few years the ability to make a wide variety of really amazing
pizza at home has become extremely accessible. The last wave of ovens are
fantastic.

------
peterwwillis
There's lots of kinds of pizza out there. It seems like the commenters here
haven't read the paper, because it goes over a sampling of the different
styles in Italy, and you can not cook them all the same way, period. But a
Neapolitan brick oven (or an equivalent) works for most of them.

However, you can approximate the specific variables of a Neapolitan brick oven
by using two factors to your advantage: slow even conductive heat, and high
radiant heat. You need these two because you're cooking two different kinds of
food at once: bread, and cheese/vegetables.

For the conductive surface, you want something that retains a lot of heat, but
not _too much_ heat that it would burn the surface or overcook it before it's
fully cooked through. I like a Dutch oven or very large cast iron skillet, as
both retain a lot of heat and can transfer it effectively. In addition, you
can add a lid to control the radiant heat on the top, as well as control water
loss.

The surface radiant heat can be obtained with the broiler mode on a standard
oven. By pre-heating a conductive surface, and controlling when the radiant
heat is applied using a lid, you can time the bread cook time and surface cook
time to obtain an even cook.

However, all this is very complicated and still not likely to work for all
pizzas. So it's actually a bit easier to pre-cook the crust, add the toppings,
and then cook the top as desired. This should work for virtually all pizza
types as the bread is really the hardest part to get right (if you have good
ingredients and a stable radiant heat source).

~~~
KozmoNau7
Pre-heating at the highest temperature setting for 45-60 minutes on the normal
oven setting and then cooking on the broiler setting (again, properly pre-
heated) works great for me. I also use a thick baking steel, hence the
extensive pre-heating.

Works great, cooks amazing pizza in a couple of minutes.

------
scoot
No physics, but this guy makes fun cooking videos, and visited a bunch of
pizzerias in Napoli to learn how to make great pizza:
[https://youtu.be/BFFfyrfYllQ?t=528](https://youtu.be/BFFfyrfYllQ?t=528)

~~~
kzrdude
And he seems to prefer a baking steel.

------
dopeboy
Long time pizza enthusiast here. I've just gotten into the pursuit of making
Neapolitan pizza after buying a pizza oven. I'm still coming up short and
would love some tips.

I've documented more on my blog but I'm still getting wrinkles, uneven leopard
patterning, and stiff edges on the crust.

[0] - [http://dopeboy.github.io/roccbox-
pizza/](http://dopeboy.github.io/roccbox-pizza/)

~~~
CannisterFlux
Now I'm no expert, and make my pizzas in a conventional oven, but I'd look at
the dough recipe first. The one you link to is:

    
    
        20 ounces (about 4 cups) bread flour, preferably Italian-style "OO"
        .4 ounces kosher salt (about 4 teaspoons)
        .3 ounces (about 2 teaspoons) instant yeast, such as SAF Instant Yeast
        13 ounces water
    

That's maybe too much salt IMO and maybe a touch dry. 20 oz is 566 g and
that's 65% water. I usually make a pizza with 200g flour, 140ml water (70%),
and less than a quarter of a teaspoon of salt. Also if you add the salt at the
start it will kill the yeast a little. I mix flour, yeast and water first, let
it stand for a minute then add the salt at the end. I make New York style
pizzas so I also add a spoon of olive oil at this point too or the result is
too crunchy.

I was somewhat "inspired" to add more water by the Bonci recipe
[http://www.elizabethminchilli.com/2011/01/making-pizza-
dough...](http://www.elizabethminchilli.com/2011/01/making-pizza-dough-with-
gabriele-bonci/) and to reduce the salt by an Italian guy at work.

It depends on the yeast you use too I guess. You have to test out what works
best for your ingredients. Don't be afraid to play around with time, leave it
in the fridge for a day or more, take it out 1, 2, 3 hours before cooking. Add
more or less water... experiment with the ingredients you use. For the longest
time I was over-proofing the dough, it would often become a gassy soggy mess
that was impossible to work with. I'd usually have to re-work it and it'd lose
all the bubbles. I found that making the dough after breakfast, leaving it in
the fridge all day and taking it out an hour before I was ready to bake it
made it perfect.

I'm dead jealous of your oven BTW. I'd love to have a good pizza oven, but in
a small flat where every inch counts it seems like an impractical luxury :-)

------
dharma1
I got one of these wood/pellet/gas fired Uuni ovens and can highly recommend
it for pizza aficionados. Reasonably priced too

[https://uuni.net/](https://uuni.net/)

I use wood kindling or pellets for the fire - it gets hot enough in 10 mins.
For the dough I use 00 (fine) flour, and depending on time I might prove the
dough for 3-4 nights in the fridge.

Possibly the best cooking tool I've bought.

~~~
Dowwie
You've really got to be committed to making pizza after you get one of those!
Do you make pies as gifts?

~~~
dharma1
No, just for us and guests. It's pretty easy though, faster than using an
electric oven and tastes 100x better. Also cooks an amazing steak in a sizzler
pan!

------
Tomte
I relented and bought a pizza steel. Best thing ever.

And not as over the top as a dedicated wood-fired oven (single use: pizza) for
garden or balcony.

It's my 80% solution.

~~~
chrissnell
My plan is to get a pizza steel and do the cooking in my Big Green Egg. I can
get the egg up to at least 700 F and I should be able to cook the pizza in a
few minutes at that temp. The kamado ceramic body of the BGE will retain heat
well and cook from both top and bottom. The oak wood should add nice flavor,
too.

~~~
johnnyletrois
I baked three pies in my BGE last night. Delicious. Pizza stone on grate on
plate setter and bake 2.5 minutes at 650-700, rotate 180 degrees, and another
2-3 minutes. Delicious. Easy shortcut is to use Trader Joe's crust.

------
Kagerjay
Pizza is interesting. Last year I spoke with the head of r&d of a major water
filtering company based in italy, the birthplace of pizza.

A luttle unknown fact is Water quality makes a difference on the taste of
pizza. There is a saying in the states that you cant replicate true new york
pizza unless you use new york water, etc.

Good pizza water tastes awful if you drank it as is. I dont recall which
elements were added inside of it, but its there. Another interesting tidbit is
pizza quality is sometimes compared to coffee quality for water enthusiasts.

Sometimes called "waves". A first wave coffee shop is like getting a awful
espresso shot at a hotel. 2nd and 3rd wave is like starbucks. 4th wave is when
a coffee shop sources their own products and knows the history behind its
goods. 5th wave is everything - these are generallly operated by famous
baristas who have basic chemistry knowledge and expertise operating a espresso
machine.

Pizza is the similar in ratings to coffee in this regards.

------
justifier
Reminds me of this great site: cookingforengineers; specifically the article
on browning:

[http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/209/Heat-
Transfer...](http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/209/Heat-Transfer-and-
Browning-Foods)

------
mtarnovan
I highly recommend a good pizza stone for baking pizza at home. I use this:
[https://pizzasteel.com](https://pizzasteel.com), with amazing results.

~~~
amelius
You can use it in a (closed) barbeque as well.

------
GCA10
Upvoted simply because of this very entertaining explanation of variations in
heat transfer rates. The authors set up a theoretical "mom" touching a child's
forehead to gauge temperature . . . and then go to town!

"Let us assume that your mother’s head is made of steel, and her temperature
is the same: 36°С. Intuitively, it is clear the temperature at the interface
will decrease, let us say, to 36.3°С."

------
rapfaria
Or learn from the master:

[http://www.varasanos.com/pizzarecipe.htm](http://www.varasanos.com/pizzarecipe.htm)

------
jonathanstrange
There is something in the dough of frozen pizzas that leaves a really bad
aftertaste - I've never encountered a counter-example. I still enjoy pre-
fabricated pizza from time to time (~once a year) but my girlfriend wouldn't
touch one with a pole.

Whatever they put in the dough, it's definitely not the same as what they use
in good pizzarias.

------
codewiz
Someone's clearly trying to win an IgNobel Prize in Physics!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ig_Nobel_Prize_winners](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ig_Nobel_Prize_winners)

------
ms512
I recently read Ken Forkish's Flour Water Salt Yeast: The Fundamentals of
Artisan Bread and Pizza and found his discussion about how to use temperature
and time to produce good bread and pizza enlightening.

------
fnordsensei
Does anyone have any tips on how to use buffalo mozzarella on a pizza (baked
in a normal oven)?

The lower fat content means it doesn't spread very effectively.

~~~
dboreham
It isn’t supposed to spread. Just tear it into chunks spaced apart and roll
with it. There will be pizza real estate with no cheese, don’t panic. YouTube
has videos showing how it’s done.

------
smileysteve
Convection ovens change the game as much as a stone.

------
NVRM
Kindly note that if you expect to put canned pineapple and honey on it, you
don't need to go that far^

~~~
vinay427
I strongly disagree, even as someone who doesn't enjoy pineapple on pizza and
doesn't consume honey. Differences in the crust can be perceived independent
of the quality of the toppings, and there are certainly people who
understandably prefer canned pineapples, for convenience and/or taste.

