
In Pursuit of PPE - tectonic
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2010025?mc_cid=4f9434619c&mc_eid=01d3ed8b19
======
hitpointdrew
Mass. Governor Charlie Baker coordinated with BJ's Wholesale to get a shipment
of 2M N95 masks...they were all "sized" (stolen) by the Feds. The governor
then coordinated with Patriots owner Robert Kraft to use the patriots private
jet to go get 1M masks. Thank goodness to the Kraft family and their support
in this situation. There has been 0 transparency or audit trail with where
these masks are going that the Feds are seizing. If I were Charlie Baker I
would call up the National Guard and tell them to retrieve the masks that were
sized by any means necessary. This is an absolute disgrace, and blatant theft
by the Feds.

~~~
throwaway5752
They are being reallocated (with strong indications being that it's for
political gain by the current administration and to help vulnerable
congressional candidates) or given to private entities.

This is yet another example of something that would be the greatest or one of
the greatest presidential scandals in US history, but is hardly noticeable
given the background level of scandal and distraction.

edit: related example - ventilators, not ppe - with potus tweets on the matter
embedded [https://www.cpr.org/2020/04/08/colorado-coronavirus-
ventilat...](https://www.cpr.org/2020/04/08/colorado-coronavirus-ventilators-
trump-polis-gardner-fema/) edit: other reporting on the matter
[https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-04-07/hospitals-...](https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-04-07/hospitals-
washington-seize-coronavirus-supplies),
[https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/coronavirus/article241...](https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/coronavirus/article241884351.html)

Respond to me, don't downvote me. Also, explain how _Blue Flame Medical_
started and got its inventory, and how inventory from _Operation Airbridge_
were procured/where they went.

~~~
jolmg
> Respond to me, don't downvote me.

I wish the guidelines contained a statement like, "Downvotes are for posts
that don't follow these guidelines, not posts you just disagree with."
Downvoting for disagreement seems equivalent to replying "Shut up."

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
I have never found it productive to respond to a post saying "I downvoted this
because I think you're needlessly injecting toxic partisanship into your
response". (I'm not _entirely_ sure it's productive even as a meta-comment
here, but I feel obligated to explain it's not just a "shut up" button.)

~~~
jolmg
I don't know what you mean by productive, but I think it's just a matter of
courtesy. There's no need to convince anyone or do follow-up discussion.

~~~
derefr
They mean that it’s more likely to cost the world utility (in terms of
starting a flame war, often between third parties who are neither the OP nor
the downvoter) than produce any utility (by satisfying the curiosity of the
downvoted person.)

------
mfer
The title is misleading. The FBI and DHS are seizing shipments of PPE.

> Before we could send the funds by wire transfer, two Federal Bureau of
> Investigation agents arrived, showed their badges, and started questioning
> me. No, this shipment was not headed for resale or the black market. The
> agents checked my credentials, and I tried to convince them that the
> shipment of PPE was bound for hospitals. After receiving my assurances and
> hearing about our health system’s urgent needs, the agents let the boxes of
> equipment be released and loaded into the trucks.

Turns out there is a black market for PPE right now. The FBI should be
investigating odd sales, like the one described in the article. Some of them
will be black market dealing taking PPE away from hospitals that need it.

This is the part that bothers me...

> But I was soon shocked to learn that the Department of Homeland Security was
> still considering redirecting our PPE. Only some quick calls leading to
> intervention by our congressional representative prevented its seizure.

So, after they showed it was for a hospital and the FBI (who investigates
federal crimes like black market deals) was satisfied. The the DoH wants to
step in and redirect until a congressional rep steps in. That's the odd part
to me.

~~~
FireBeyond
> The the DoH wants to step in and redirect until a congressional rep steps
> in. That's the odd part to me.

Not the DoH, DHS, Homeland Security. Whose oversight of the COVID-19
management is being coordinated with Jared Kushner.

It has been heavily implied, sometimes outright stated, that some of these
"redirections" are going to states who are "being nice" to the President.

I would be entirely unsurprised to learn that others are going to
"battleground" states (in the election sense, not the disease sense). Or to
"government authorized private contractors" for resale (with its own due sense
of irony).

~~~
ilikehurdles
A republican fundraiser started Blueflame Medical at the end of March and
boasts of being able to fill 100 million orders of masks and PPE. I don't know
how he secured these supply lines out of thin air, but I wouldn't be surprised
if the federal government is indirectly propping up their stockpile with these
seized shipments.

~~~
NortySpock
Do you have a source for this claim?

~~~
FireBeyond
[https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/27/republican-
fundrais...](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/27/republican-fundraiser-
company-coronavirus-152184)

Some choice quotes:

> Asked how he’d managed to procure such equipment when there are shortages in
> hospitals across the country, Gula said, “I have relationships with a lot of
> people.”

> Thomas declined to specify how he and Gula had managed to obtain masks that
> have become so rare that some hospitals have resorted to reusing them or
> having health care workers tie bandannas or scarfs around their faces. “It’s
> just relationship-based,” he said. “I can’t say anything else.”

> “I don’t want to overstate, but we probably represent the largest global
> supply chain for Covid-19 supplies right now,” he said. “We are getting
> ready to fill 100 million-unit mask orders.”

This last one is the kicker. This guy, who works with/for the Republican
party, is able to set up shop in TWO WEEKS, "the largest global supply chain",
"based off of relationships", and alarm bells aren't ringing?

I would love for someone to buy masks from Blue Flame, and check lot numbers /
serial numbers on those supplies, and see who the original intended recipients
were.

------
thecolorblue
It's not the seizing that bothers me. It's that I have not seen any (credible)
stories of where the seized PPE goes.

~~~
toomim
Furthermore, the heads of hospitals are outright saying that they are not
seeing any PPE from these "stockpiles".

So it's not going to them!

~~~
makomk
Not necessarily. The US government has supposedly been seizing masks off
stockpilers who've been trying to price gouge, paying them the normal, non-
inflated price, and then feeding them to hospitals through the normal supply
chain (because they're not interested in setting up their own parallel
distribution infrastructure).

------
mistersquid
This headline is somewhat misleading as the shipment in the OP was not seized.

> The agents checked my credentials, and I tried to convince them that the
> shipment of PPE was bound for hospitals. After receiving my assurances and
> hearing about our health system’s urgent needs, the agents let the boxes of
> equipment be released and loaded into the trucks. But I was soon shocked to
> learn that the Department of Homeland Security was still considering
> redirecting our PPE. Only some quick calls leading to intervention by our
> congressional representative prevented its seizure. I remained nervous and
> worried on the long drive back, feelings that did not abate until midnight,
> when I received the call that the PPE shipment was secured at our warehouse.

------
goda90
Someone close to me has contacts and friends in Hong Kong. One offered to send
him a box of masks for free(I think just surgical masks, not N95). The plan
was to give a few to friends/family, and his wife's coworkers, who are in-home
caretakers for the elderly. The rest would be donated to a hospital or
similar. But the box never arrived. It hit customs and was seized.

------
f0ok
Nurse here. As the epidemic started to get international, I went online and
bought a couple boxes of N95 masks, gloves, glasses, and Tyveks. I went to the
store and got a few litres of grain alcohol. I told my friends and family this
would become a pandemic. They did not believe me.

These items were still easy to find two months ago. What I cannot comprehend
is why was I preparing for this when most institutions were not taking this
opportunity to do the same.

~~~
rubidium
I question the same. Either hospital supply chains were incompetent or
underfunded (or both). Perhaps sacrificed on the recent trend of “lean” in the
healthcare system.

~~~
woofie11
We've seen incompetence within all of our power structures.

It turned out the $10 million/year CEOs aren't quite competent. The same for
most of the other rich/powerful.

------
Yoric
The title is somewhat clickbait-ish. The FBI and DHS have raided a shipment,
which they thought was _not_ meant for a hospital. Once they understood it was
meant for a hospital, they let it flow.

~~~
kevingadd
The DHS still attempted to seize it even though it was for a hospital, until a
lawmaker intervened. You're correct that the FBI let it through.

~~~
notyourday
Prioritization. Just because it is a hospital that wants to get them does not
mean that it was that specific hospital had a higher priority on PPE at that
specific time.

Today an unfilled request for PPE from Mount Sinai has a higher priority than
an unfilled request for PPE in Boston. Mount Sinai therefore would win against
Boston. Boston would win against a small hospital in Erie, PA.

~~~
jeremyjh
"The Federal Government is not a shipping clerk". The biggest complaint in all
of this is that the Federal government is _not_ handling the allocation of
these scarce resources, instead forcing states to engage in bidding wars that
only enrich suppliers and brokers.

~~~
notyourday
The system is setup to allow for individual players to continue to engage in
the commercial transactions however they want as long as the prioritized
requests have been satisfied.

Requests are prioritized based on the "hotness" of the requests and a
probability of the issuer of the request not being able to find a way to
resolve it.

If Mount Sinai (NYC, red zone) needs 20k masks because they are projected to
run out in two days ( burn rate 10k/day) and Abington Health (PA, outside
Philadelphia, yellow zone) has 20k masks that are heading to it ( its burn
rate is 200/day ), the feds will absolutely take it and redirect to Mount
Sinai.

On the other hand if Mount Sinai is projected to run out in a week, feds won't
touch it.

------
pdonis
The title of this thread should be changed.

The actual article title is: "In Pursuit of PPE".

The actual article does not talk about any PPE being seized by FBI or DHS. It
talks about FBI agents questioning the author when he was inspecting samples
of a shipment of PPE before authorizing purchase, and about his learning that
DHS was considering redirecting the PPE. But it does not say any PPE was
actually seized.

~~~
dang
Thanks, we've reverted it.

Submitted title was "The FBI and DHS are seizing shipments of PPE intended for
hospitals". Please see
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22926309](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22926309)
about not doing that.

~~~
tectonic
Noted, thank you.

~~~
dang
Appreciated! Don't forget that the very same information can be super helpful
if you add it as a first comment to the thread. Then you also have more space
to explain things such as why it matters, or where in the article it's found,
or what else might be important in the article, or related links.

------
csense
LA Times originally reported government seizures of PPE weeks ago.

In separate news from a different source (PBS Newshour), some hospitals are
reporting protective gear from state and federal stockpiles that is completely
unusable: masks 10 years past its expiration date, masks for children, masks
that are rotting [1].

My guess: These two stories are related. The government had enough masks / PPE
on paper, but never actually checked it was usable. No one intended this to
happen, it just sort of fell through the cracks, and all the paperwork said
everything was OK.

Now that huge amounts of physical masks are actually needed, they can't get by
anymore on paperwork that doesn't reflect reality.

The stockpile probably has a (not officially acknowledged) main purpose of
protecting the essential parts of government if there's an outbreak: soldiers,
intelligence, Congress, etc.

Since people actually started physically checking the masks in government
stockpiles, behind the scenes bureaucrats have been panicking because they
suddenly found out there won't be enough PPE to protect the government, and
the market's so tight and the supply chain is so stretched that they just
can't simply buy it, there's way too much demand.

So they've decided they need to rebuild the stockpile. The government's
reasoning is probably that what really matters is that the "people who matter"
in government have what they need. If civilian doctors get sick, and some of
them die, that's (seen by government bureaucrats as) an acceptable price to
pay to be sure the government itself is protected.

This sounds pretty horrible, but I'm not sure they're completely wrong. For
example, what if Russia invades Europe or China lands troops in California
next week, the US Army starts to deploy in response, but gets paralyzed by a
huge coronavirus outbreak and all available PPE's already been used?

Seems to me like this kind of ethical question should go through the public
political process. I'm not sure why they aren't simply honest about why
they're doing it. Trying to hide it suggests some bad motive. Maybe it's to
hide the original screwup of not checking the stockpile properly. Maybe they
have OPSEC concerns about not tipping our adversaries off that this would be a
great week to start a war, since the US Military's effectiveness is
temporarily crippled by lack of masks.

Anyone know how to file an FOIA request to try to force the government to tell
us what's happening to seized masks?

[1] [https://youtu.be/A4YZxctxh8w?t=159](https://youtu.be/A4YZxctxh8w?t=159)

~~~
paulmd
> My guess: The government had enough masks / PPE on paper, but never actually
> checked it was usable. No one intended this to happen, it just sort of fell
> through the cracks, and all the paperwork said everything was OK.

No, Republicans in congress very specifically cut the budgets that were
supposed to be used to rotate out expired materials. It wasn't accidental,
it's a case of refusing to pay the insurance bill and then acting shocked when
you're in a car crash.

It also took a big hit from the sequestration, like everything else in the
government, but the budget was already underfunded to begin with because DHHS
was associated with Obamacare and Republicans wouldn't approve any spending
there.

They did the best they could with the money they had and focused on drugs
instead of things like masks, which have a harder "cut off" for efficacy and
were seen as easier to acquire in the heat of a crisis. But masks eventually
have an expiration date too, and if you never rotate them they will eventually
go bad too.

[https://www.propublica.org/article/us-emergency-medical-
stoc...](https://www.propublica.org/article/us-emergency-medical-stockpile-
funding-unprepared-coronavirus)

> After using up the swine flu emergency funds, the Obama administration tried
> to replenish the stockpile in 2011 by asking Congress to provide $655
> million, up from the previous year’s budget of less than $600 million.
> Responding to swine flu, which the CDC estimated killed more than 12,000
> people in the United States over the course of a year, had required the
> largest deployment in the stockpile’s history, including nearly 20 million
> pieces of personal protective equipment and more than 85 million N95 masks,
> according to a 2016 report published by the National Academies of Sciences,
> Engineering and Medicine.

> “We recognized the need for replenishment of the stockpile and budgeted
> about a 10% increase,” said Dr. Nicole Lurie, who served as the assistant
> secretary for preparedness and response at the Department of Health and
> Human Services during the Obama administration. “That was rejected by the
> Republican House.”

> Republicans took over the House of Representatives in the 2010 midterms on
> the Tea Party wave of opposition to the landmark 2010 health care reform
> law, the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare. The new House
> majority was intent on curbing government spending, especially at HHS, which
> administered Obamacare.

...

> “It just was never funded at the level that was needed to purchase new
> products, to replace expiring products and to invest in what we now know are
> the really necessary ancillary products,” said Dara Lieberman, director of
> government relations at the Trust for America’s Health, a nonpartisan public
> health advocacy and research group.

------
blhack
It sounds like federal agencies are stepping in to investigate and prevent
price gouging. Good. That is their job. If this wasn't happening, there would
be even _less_ PPE available for hospitals. Of course when you are talking
about something at the scale of what is happening in the country right now,
there are going to be imperfections in the system, and those imperfections
will get reported on. That should not be taken as indicative of the state of
things _overall_ , but merely as exception reporting.

The news aspect of event has been incredibly depressing. There are commonly
outright lies being presented as if they are valid representations of things
that are happening in the world. Sometimes that is simply a part of life, and
the consequences are relatively (to this) minimal, but in this situation, this
type of reporting is getting people killed.

~~~
pm_me_ur_fullzz
There is no federal law on price gouging.

Despite the increase of government enforcement activity, not every price
increase constitutes price gouging (no matter how abnormal the price seems).

State laws are toothless and many resign their regulation in the face of an
event that lasts for 30+ days, as it accurately suggests the problem isn't
going away if it hasn't by then and is probably bigger than the state.

The market has expanded and there is a war for resources.

The price is the market price and is a necessary market signal. Any 2-bit
lawyer can defend this now, enjoy. Two the state's attorney general, don't
waste public resources on this.

The governments fully capable of creating a price ceiling and subsidizing on
top of that.

The market signals are abundantly clear and are a necessary motivating factor
to solve the supply constraints.

------
KorematsuFred
Why did the doctor even speak to FBI,DHS agents in first place ? Did they have
a warrant ?

Day by day it is getting harder to understand who are the good guys these
days.

~~~
detaro
The Defense Production Act gives the federal government pretty far reaching
powers to control and seize goods needed to fight covid-19. If they claim
you're hoarding, they can seize it, AFAIK without a warrant.

~~~
vorpalhex
This is why I was surprised there was so much push by Dems to invoke the DPA
under the current admin: misuse was probable.

------
onyva
Not sure if that’s the source but Rachel Maddow was reporting on this for a
week now, if I’m not mistaken.

------
damon_c
The real question is, will the US voters living in the states which are
recipients of the seized PPE be _more_ or _less_ likely to vote for the
perpetrators of such malfeasance.

------
grayed-down
Strange story. Good outcome. A lot of missing information.

------
magwa101
Of course, the shakedown requires restriction of supplies right?

------
mensetmanusman
In this environment, PPE is zero sum.

This PPE was going to this hospital, or another.

------
fc_barnes
The Republican Party is a criminal conspiracy.

------
1996
Something to remember for whoever thinks the government needs more power in
time of crisis.

~~~
CharlesW
What new power(s) are enabling the current administration to do this that
previous administrations didn't have?

~~~
SteveNuts
I think OP was saying don't let another Patriot Act happen in the wake of all
of this (my interpretation).

~~~
CharlesW
Ah, I thought OP had something specific in mind for this case. Thanks for
connecting that for me instead of just downvoting.

------
tuna-piano
1\. Weeks ago (and still?), tons of people were complaining that the federal
government should take over procurement and distribution of medical supplies.

2\. Now, the federal government is taking over some procurement and
distribution of medical supplies. More complaints on this method.

There are certainly legitimate complaints to be had with state procurement,
federal procurement, communication gaps, problems with distribution priority,
etc... but I'm left confused as to the shock that the federal government is
seizing supplies?

Isn't that what people wanted when they asked for federal government managed
procurement+distribution?

~~~
kec
If this is a serious question: People wanted the Federal government to act as
a single purchaser to source and transparently distribute material to the
states, leveraging efficiencies of scale and a view of the whole situation.

No one was asking for the federal government to seize already purchased
material and do _things_ with it with zero transparency or accountability.

~~~
Natsu
Well, they didn't actually seize anything here, they figured out that some
shipment from China was going to hospitals instead of being intended for
resale, then let those hospitals have it once things were straightened out.

The only question is how this transaction got wrongly flagged to begin with.

~~~
coleca
From the article it sounds like it was a pretty clandestine operation to begin
with. He admits to paying 5x the normal prices for the masks, was picking them
up in trucks marked as food service, taking different routes, etc. This is
exactly the kind of shady transaction the government should be investigating.
It could have just as easily been some price speculator buying those masks for
all the Feds knew. Once they were assured it wasn't they let it go. The
speculation about DHS was a little vague.

The doctor explains at the end of this short interview that he was actually
appreciative of the FBI for intervening and why they did:

[https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/04/20/dr-andrew-
arten...](https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/04/20/dr-andrew-artenstein-
fbi-questions-masks-purchase-intv-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus/)

------
m0zg
HN: the situation where procurement is local is dumb, feds should be
distributing PPE

Feds: (attempt to) seize PPE to distribute it elsewhere

HN: The situation where feds seize PPE is dumb, you should be able to procure
locally

Which is it folks? What's the set up that will satisfy your wishes?

Meanwhile a quote from gov Cuomo today: "I think the president is right when
he says the states should lead", regarding testing.

~~~
jasonlotito
This is what you are saying:

HN: You should have been wearing a seat belt when the car crashed. Feds: Puts
on the seat belt after the car crashed. HN: That is dumb.

Which is it folks? What seat belt state will satisfy your wishes?

The fed has dropped the ball already. It needs to show more leadership going
forward. The time for the fed handling PPE procurement and distribution has
already passed though, at least in the way they are doing it. The only thing
they are doing is taking PPE that is needed now and keeping it away from those
that expect to get it.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
The thing is, the car is continuing to crash. Sure, the seat belt should have
been on already. But put the seat belt on _now_.

~~~
jasonlotito
And you've ignored the metaphor completely.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
I've said that the metaphor is somewhat misleading.

