
How Cincinnati Salvaged the Nation’s Most Dangerous Neighborhood - rockdiesel
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/06/what-works-cincinnati-ohio-over-the-rhine-crime-neighborhood-turnaround-city-urban-revitalization-213969
======
llamataboot
I grew up in Cincinnati and grew up with current staff members of both 3CDC
and other active development groups in OtR. They have had good goals, overall,
with active talk about in-fill development that at least gives lip service to
gentrification concerns. However, they have also had decidedly non-diverse
staffs, have held lots of non-public meetings even when the public was
clamoring for meetings, and arguably just pushed poverty out of parts of OtR
into other areas of the city.

Here's some articles that have a different perspective:

[http://www.cincinnatimagazine.com/citywiseblog/3cdc-in-
over-...](http://www.cincinnatimagazine.com/citywiseblog/3cdc-in-over-the-
rhine-between-two-worlds/)

[http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/letters/2015/03/18/l...](http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/letters/2015/03/18/letter-
otr-wealthy-poor-gentrification/24951835/)

[http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/24138-econocide-over-
the-...](http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/24138-econocide-over-the-rhine)

The Brandery is a pretty big incubator, I bet there are some HN readers that
have been through it or work there. Looking forward to hearing their
perspectives. As far as the perspectives of the people that have lived in OtR
through the 90s and 2000s, don't think you'll get many of them. I lived/played
in OtR in 2001-2003 and grew up running around there in the 90s going to house
shows, art openings (from the very first wave of incidental gentrifiers, one
might say), boozey dive bars, the local goth club, etc.

~~~
jmathai
I grew up in Cincinnati until my late 20s and before Over the Rhine was
gentrified.

My experience in OTR was volunteering every weekend at Washington Park. I
would talk to the folks who frequented the park; many homeless. They had
stories and weren't much different from myself. Except I had a bigger safety
net, wasn't as unlucky and made different bad decisions.

I remember how attendees of City Hall would walk past the homeless on their
walk into the opera. It was sad. That's where I remember it all starting
though. The "no loitering" laws and "no sleeping in the park" laws.

OTR is better for middle class and above people. But those people who used to
be in OTR didn't disappear. They're somewhere and I hope they found another
place to hang out.

Spike Lee's response to someone on the Gentrification in NYC is a great
listen.

[https://soundcloud.com/daily-intelligencer/spike-lee-on-
gent...](https://soundcloud.com/daily-intelligencer/spike-lee-on-
gentrification)

------
Animats
_" In the process, it has earned the ire of longtime residents and homeless
advocates, who say their desires, suggestions and dreams for the
neighborhood—until recently 80 percent African-American—are seldom consulted
and rarely implemented."_

Yup. "Urban renewal means Negro removal", as James Baldwin once said.

Silicon Valley did this in Whiskey Gulch, the small piece of East Palo Alto
that's west of 101. East Palo Alto was Silicon Valley's one black city. In the
1980s, Whiskey Gulch was mostly liquor stores and bars, hence the name. When I
lived a few blocks away in Menlo Park, I'd hear automatic weapons fire from
there most weekends. (This was the era of the MAC-11 machine pistol, "the gun
that made the 80's roar".) It's the only place I've ever seen a fully armored
fried chicken outlet; you got your chicken through a turntable in the armor
glass.

That problem was solved in 1997 by leveling the entire area and building a
Four Seasons hotel and an office building full of lawyers.[1] Amazon AWS
recently moved in there. No more black people, and no more gunfire.

[1]
[http://www.paloaltoonline.com/weekly/morgue/cover/1997_Mar_5...](http://www.paloaltoonline.com/weekly/morgue/cover/1997_Mar_5.COVER05.html)

~~~
nerdponx
Just playing devils advocate here: do you think the solution would have been
different if it had been white people shooting each other?

~~~
jjawssd
Nope, Shivetya hit the nail on the head. It's more about economic and
political capital. Lacking areas are more violent.

------
skrowl
I'm from Cincinnati and have lived here my entire life.

Much of the area formerly referred to as OTR remains unsafe after dark. In
addition to the gentrification, they've also successfully rebranded "OTR" to
just be considered to be the 2 streets (Race and Vine between Central and
Liberty if you're looking at a map) that are revamped.

The remainder of what used to be called OTR is still derelict buildings, soup
kitchens, and other obvious signs of a blighted area.

~~~
mathattack
I thought that the gentrification happened in the mid-90s. What happened? Not
enough new residents? Things set back by riots?

~~~
mediaserf
It did start in the mid-90s with people buying and renovating townhomes on
Milton and Liberty Hill. I'm sure the riots slowed it down, but the article
does inaccurately assert the speed of the change as well as where it came
from. A lot of the residential turn-around wasn't corporate sponsored.

------
hackeradam17
I am from and live in Cincinnati. As some others have stated, this article
greatly overstates the changes that's occurred in OTR. Yes, parts of Vine and
Race street have been cleaned up a great deal, but go just a street over, or
even a little further on said streets and you are right back in an area that
is anything but the "good" part of town.

It's not at all uncommon to go into these areas and see sights such as drug
deals and prostitution occurring right out in the open. When I worked for
Kroger (which, granted, has been several years now), they used to have to keep
a police presence at the Vine street store because it was so common to have
problems there. Sadly, much of OTR is still what I would consider urban
plight.

~~~
ToasterOven
A street over would be Walnut or Main streets, which now have a packed
barcade, and a pretty solid empanada place, etc. The change even in the last
two years is extremely positive, and I would have to disagree that the article
greatly overstates it.

That said, past Liberty or Main certainly has some unsavory characters, but
for the most part they're only dangerous to each other. I lived in that area
recently and go back frequently. I never felt unsafe in the area that's
experienced significant development, even late at night.

I think a lot of people who formed their opinion of OTR back in the race riots
would do well to revisit and go in with an open mind. It's quite a wonderful
place now

------
cinquemb
Grew up in the west end and went to elementary school there before the school
moved to some countryside and still lived there until highschool before
parents split… it was bad, but when I was younger it never seemed that bad as
people make it out to be.

I rather gunshots, prostitution, having to stay in after hours sometimes or
not being able to go home a couple of nights because some guy is barricaded in
some abandon house across the street and the swat team is there than metadata
drone strikes… some people don't get a choice where they live, or die… and in
twenty years or so when this area becomes a slum, at least the buildings will
be newer, up to code or w/e trendy bullshit people are selling these days :P

------
mauvehaus
If you are in the area, there's a tour you can take that gets you into some of
the unrestored buildings and the underground spaces beneath them. In
particular, the breweries in the area used to lager their beer in manmade
caverns that they cooled with water from the river when it was cold enough.

In the context of the article I make the recommendation with some
reservations. You can spin it as poverty voyeurism or gentrification if that's
your thing, but it also offers a glimpse into how things were when the area
was a vibrant community. It also offers a peek into historical infrastructure
(well, insofar as you can consider the aging and moving of beer
infrastructure) when it was still more economic to chill beer with cold river
water than electricity.

Not affiliated, but I did take the tour a couple years ago.

[http://www.americanlegacytours.com/queen-city-
underground/](http://www.americanlegacytours.com/queen-city-underground/)

------
ececconi
Never knew Over the Rhine used to be the nation's most dangerous neighborhood.
I'm on a consulting assignment here in Cinci and I go there all the time for
trendy food and bars. Yes it does have pockets where I'm a bit scared to walk
at night, but not enough so that I don't.

~~~
mywittyname
If you were here even as recently as 2010, you'd have been scared to _drive_
in OTR in broad daylight. This isn't an exaggeration at all. Attempted car
jackings were pretty common.

~~~
dionidium
That's an exaggeration. These "most dangerous" designations are pretty
meaningless, anyway. Neighborhoods can be dangerous for many reasons, in many
different ways, and for different people, at different times of day, dependent
on context.

All but the most careful comparisons are suspect.

~~~
ececconi
You can say the same thing about almost any other kind of comparison that's
not strictly numeric. Fact of the matter is, people make comparisons and
they're valid for many reasons.

~~~
dionidium
_You can say the same thing about almost any other kind of comparison that 's
not strictly numeric._

That's an argument against making similar comparisons in other domains, too;
you're supporting my claim, not contradicting it. People absolutely _do_ make
these comparisons, but I wouldn't point to what people happen to do as
evidence that any random one of those things makes any sense.

I get it; we like these comparisons. They're fun. They're also -- at best --
misleading.

------
refurb
This part confuses me:

 _" From 2010 to 2014 it went from about 60 percent black to two-thirds white,
while the still-undeveloped section north of Liberty Street has remained over
80 percent African-American."_

Is the neighborhood becoming more white because white people are moving there?
Or because black people are leaving? It sounds like the population dropped
dramatically with the crime.

If it's because there were 4000 blacks and 1000 whites and now there are 4000
blacks and 4000 whites, that doesn't sound like a problem to me.

~~~
crisdux
The census and 5 years estimates shows the picture very differently. 9,572 was
the total population in 1990. The 2014 estimates are 4,568. The black
population living in the neighborhood declined 65%, white population declined
33%.

3CDC and Cincinnati are creating a vibrant neighborhood for affluent whites.
Just recently has the population started to increase for the white population.
As the whole the neighborhood is declining in population and becoming much
more affluent and much less dense.

Graph with population numbers.
[http://infogr.am/o65l3dVQjEXPYKWO](http://infogr.am/o65l3dVQjEXPYKWO)

------
mountaineer22
Related:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Subway](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Subway)

------
fhood
Short answer, by pricing out the poor people.

~~~
logn
The 2001 riots destroyed the neighborhood and most people left. Then 3CDC
bought the majority of the buildings.

~~~
api
I grew up in Cincinnati and was in OTR during the riots, albeit in a third
floor secure apartment. It wasn't nearly as bad as the press coverage made it
out to be... mostly a bunch of stupid kids trying to smash and grab. But the
bad press definitely ruined OTR's economic prospects for a decade.

------
subzidion
Here's a TL;DR

> "the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp.—better known as 3CDC—has
> invested or leveraged more than half a billion dollars into Over-the-Rhine,
> buying and rescuing 131 historic buildings and building 48 new ones, while
> maintaining subsidized housing, rehabilitating parks and driving out
> criminals with cameras, better lighting, liquor store closings and the
> development of vacant lots"

~~~
antisthenes
Here's a TL;DR for your TL;DR.

Real estate development corp invests $500 million into gentrifying an area.

~~~
aminok
You know how far gone social justice is as an ideology when "gentrification"
has become a bad word.

Gentrification means more safe high quality neighbourhoods for people to live
in. The local effect might be to price some low income people out of their
community but the systemic effect is to increase the supply and therefore
reduce the cost of better quality housing.

