
Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up - Nickste
http://jacquesmattheij.com/depression-dont-do-that-startup
======
derefr
> For some reason start-ups are a magnet for people that suffer from
> depression.

I posit: it's _hard_ to hold a steady job while suffering from untreated
depression. (Or ADD. Or social anxiety. Or any number of other things.)

Between your (inevitably short) periods of employment, you tinker. Tinkering
leads to projects, projects become startups, and--if you're good at what you
do--before you know it, you're under a ton of stress.

I don't know what the solution is, but just _telling_ people who have mental
illnesses not to start start-ups isn't it. Frequently, a startup is their
_option of last resort_ \--since the working world has already failed them.

~~~
benologist
Maybe pysch-evals should be part of due diligence by investors?

~~~
singular
Why not check on the state of their marriage/chances of their kids dying from
a drug overdose too? Those would affect the investment too!

Ugh. Come on, there has been a line of privacy somewhere.

~~~
benologist
The results don't need to be shared necessarily, it could be as simple as
mandatory evaluation + unbeknownst to the investor, treatment if that's what
is recommended.

~~~
singular
You talk about treatment, but you mention that this would form part of due
diligence - presumably a treatment recommendation would cause the investors to
pull out?

Good luck diagnosing depression when the person being questioned knows it's
the difference between his company getting investment or not - here's an e.g.
form typical of the assessment you get (in the UK) -
<http://www.sabp.nhs.uk/Documents/D1.3d2.pdf>

How do you think the candidate is going to answer to a question like 'I feel
like life is not worth living?' in this situation?

And you didn't respond to my points about marriage, and drug-taking kids. I
don't see why they can't be assessed if we permit assessment of mental health
as a potential cause of harm to investee/investor.

Perhaps we could look into a candidate's sex life to see if he or his partner
are performing satisfactorily? Sexual frustration might take a toll on a
startup. Perhaps check to see if there's an ill relative who might die during
the life of the startup?

Additionally, I think there's a question of how much you can really assess
this stuff.

I knew a person who lost a grandparent + split up with his girlfriend +
subsequently failed his degree as a consequence despite a lot of assistance,
where I myself experienced considerably worse circumstances with no assistance
from the university whatsoever - how would you differentiate between us? Some
assessment as to our resilience perhaps?

Not to sound cliched, but this really _is_ a slippery slope situation, even if
we could reasonably expect to achieve an accurate assessment.

~~~
benologist
All the investors need to know is you cooperated, they don't need to know what
that means. Maybe that means you went and were fine, maybe that means you went
and got recommended for some additional therapy.

Education, stigma etc are massive parts of the problem. Being forced to
confront it and forcing an industry to confront it head on sounds good to me.
When you wait for a depressed person to realize they need help and decide to
take action and actually do it you wait too long.

I have no point of reference for marriage and drug-taking kids. I don't know
if well adjusted people can leave their problems at home but depressed people
cannot, and I do have some experience with that including seeing it take a
life.

~~~
singular
I'm very sorry to hear that you had to see it take somebody's life, that
really is a terrible thing, and my heart goes out to you.

I am a depressive myself so have some experience, and dislike any idea that
somebody might avoid employing me/feel leery about my advancing in the
workplace because of it (even posting about it here makes me feel
uncomfortable because of this stigma.)

Though I applaud the idea that people become more aware of the risks esp. in
the computing industry/startups, I think the idea of assessing it being part
of due diligence would simply encourage more stigma about it - 'who wants a
'crazy person' in charge of our money?' many will think, sadly.

Anyway, on the subject of depression I have a lot of experience so if you want
to talk about that if it'd be of any benefit, feel free to email me (see my
profile) :-)

------
Jach
> The statistics being what they are

What statistics? You occasionally read about startup employees or
(co-)founders killing themselves, that's not a statistic. What's the rate
compared to non-startup jobs? Suicide is a problem across the board.

If someone is suffering from depression but has even a weak desire to do a
startup, I'm not so sure encouraging them to take that job at BigCo is really
good advice. A lot of people found or work for startups or small companies
simply because they can't stand the corporate dynamics at BigCo, whether it's
not being responsible for enough things and feeling like you have no impact,
or doing boring things day after day, or bad management and bosses, or
something else--if you feel like you wouldn't like a corporate job and you're
already depressed, getting that job at a stable company is just going to
aggravate you further. The academic world isn't necessarily better; if the
games you need to play as a funded researcher aren't to your taste, that too
will aggravate you.

Maybe instead of saying "stay away from startups" I'd argue "stay away from
startups with an explicit goal of getting big or really rich fast", or more
simply "stay away from Extreme Startups". Perhaps encouraging a focus on
lifestyle businesses is a better approach?

~~~
jacquesm
> What statistics?

The statistics of start-up failure, which is pretty much a given, success is
the exception.

~~~
Jach
D'oh, sorry, I misread that as statistics of suicide in startups. Maybe if the
"or" later on in the sentence was replaced by "and" it would be clearer, but
that narrows your statement.

~~~
jacquesm
No problem, I've re-written that sentence it now reads: "The failure rate of
start-ups being what it is, if you are suffering from depression or if failure
is not your thing then start-ups are the very last place that you should be."

That should get rid of any ambiguity. Thank you!

------
twitchhiker
This is just about the most patronising, idiotic, misguided and damaging piece
of bullshit I've ever had the misfortune to read.

For some people, yes, a high pressure environment that risks failure will put
some in harm's way. But if somebody is prone to suicidal thoughts, it's likely
that simply living life will put them at risk. Rejection in love. Loss of
income. The death of a family member. There's so much in life that can lead to
feelings of hopelessness and regret, plenty of them arguably more meaningful
than a startup.

And here's the kicker - put somebody who's hugely creative and talented into a
9 to 5 environment or a workplace where they can't express themselves freely
to "keep them safe" as the author suggests? There's the equally real danger
that they'll feel stifled, trapped, desperately unhappy and will consider
taking their own life as a result anyway.

And why does it seem that depression is prevalent in startups, wonders the
author? One reason that startups might be a magnet for for such people, is the
same reason music or art attracts its fair share of people with depression.
It's an outlet, it allows you to define yourself and explore your creativity.

Another reason might be because startups are predominantly founded by young
males; according to WHO, suicide in males is twice as high as females in most
countries. There's also evidence to suggest young males are most at risk of
taking their own lives. And how many founders have undiagnosed depression? How
many founders suffer depression as a result of being a startup founder?

Startups aren't for everyone, whether they have mental health issues or
otherwise - that's fair comment. People with depression should seek help, and
friends should look to support them however they can - that's only to be
encouraged. But to make blanket statements about depression just reinforces
stereotypes. It's stupid, stupid behaviour.

Paul (has Bipolar Disorder, startup founder and accelerator program director)

~~~
jacquesm
Hey Paul, congratulations on coming out and showing there are survivors of
exactly that setup.

Have any of the people in your accelerator program killed themselves?

Would you reconsider your stance if they did or would you stick with it?

Are you trying to identify people who may have mental issues from the
population of founders of your seed stage companies?

And if so do you

\- help to get them professionally looked after?

\- refuse them entry into the program?

~~~
twitchhiker
"Congratulations on coming out..."

Thanks, but I haven't. I've openly talked about it for years.

"...and showing there are survivors of exactly that setup."

What? I haven't 'survived' anything. I don't do my job in either the
accelerator or the startup struggling with the relentless torture of it all.

2% of the population suffers from depression. 2% of the population don't kill
themselves. So most are 'survivors' or, to use another word, 'normal'.

"Have any of the people in your accelerator program killed themselves?"

Out of 50 founders so far? No. Out of a wider ecosystem in our city of at
least as many again? Not to my knowledge.

"Would you reconsider your stance if they did or would you stick with it?"

What's to reconsider? Would you consider closing a bank because somebody
couldn't cope with the crushing monotony of their work and killed themselves?
No.

"Are you trying to identify people who may have mental issues from the
population of founders of your seed stage companies?"

No. I'm not a qualified doctor.

"And if so do you help to get them professionally looked after?"

If somebody shows symptoms of depression of course I'll talk to them and
support them. I'll strongly suggest they talk to their doctor because
diagnosis is required to managed depression.

"Do you refuse them entry into the program?"

No. That's stupid. Their depression may have nothing whatsoever to do with
startups. Chances are it hasn't because they're still early stage. If I feel
they're capable of completing the program in a professional and competent
manner, then their mental wellbeing isn't a deal-breaker.

Just so we're clear:

\- depression and suicide are not necessarily related, and one rarely leads to
the other.

\- people get depressed about plenty of issues other than startups. I have a
friend, a successful entrepreneur who sets an outstanding example to others;
his personal life is often a mess because of his depression. His professional
life and his depression don't cross paths, and I'd guess that without doing
what he loves in his work, his life would be so much harder.

\- that there are people who think like you worries me far, far more than
people with depression.

------
DanBC
> _With some regularity I read articles about some amiable, accomplished and
> brilliant young kid that decides to end their life in the start-up scene_

This is confirmation bias. You don't hear about all the other people
completing suicide.

> If a start-up fails, then to some degree it may feel like you yourself have
> failed, even if that is absolutely not the case.

There's a risk that this is extended to everything. "If a new job fails"; "If
a new relationship fails"; etc.

Really, the article could be saying "Get treatment for your depression" (which
is important whether you're doing a start up or not) and "Develop some tools
for resilience, learn some techniques to help you cope with life".

~~~
jacquesm
I _knew_ these people, and I know a lot of people. Judging by the difference
between start-up types committing suicide and people that I know outside of
the start-up scene there is a huge difference between the two groups. Of
course it is possible that my experience is an outlier, but it is a pretty
extreme one (5:0, on groups of 100's of individuals).

~~~
bayesianhorse
It's still bias. This is something medical professionals have to be reminded
of over and over again: Your perception is not a double-blind study! You have
no randomized control group and not enough cases.

~~~
jacquesm
There is a fair chance of that. But since this is my blog I will write
whatever the hell I please, it's not a double blind study over 20 years and it
does not pretend to be.

It's a plea. Which may stop the next friend or person that I'm in contact with
from taking a right turn for a dead end in some broom closet somewhere.

Enough bright lights have been extinguished in this fashion over the last
couple of years.

~~~
ZoFreX
> But since this is my blog I will write whatever the hell I please

Of course. But I hope you would care that what you wrote is upsetting to a lot
of people, and that we believe the advice is actually harmful, even though you
didn't intend it to be.

If you truly do care about these issues and genuinely want to help people, I
would love to chat to you about it. I don't think this is really the place for
it, so please email me (@gmail.com) if you want to take up that offer.

------
rdl
Most of the people I know who have killed themselves (hrm...10 or so over the
past decade?) were not involved in startups in a senior role. One had sold a
successful company a year or two before, and another was a senior engineer at
a fairly successful tech company, and of course the other was aaronsw (who was
involved in non-profit, activist stuff; it would be hard to say startups were
involved in his death).

If you excluded people with depression from startups, I don't think you'd
meaningfully change the suicide rate, but you probably would reduce the number
and quality of startups. IMO, if one's internal emotional state is relatively
independent of the outside world, it's not so much that losing a client or
having a startup fail will lead to suicide, but that
depression/withdrawal/etc. will lead to the startup failing.

The question is more can depression and startup success coexist.

------
oceanician
This article is unbelievably wrong!

If you've tech skills, but you don't find working in a noisey office is for
you, then you've really got to find a way to earn an income that works for
you. Carrying on, and forcing yourself to apply for more and more jobs, where
you have to compete with those in their early 20s who are willing to work 12
hour days, and havn't the burden of 15 years of technology changes in their
heads isn't for everyone.

Startups offer an opportunity to create a world that not only works in the
economocial sense, but also in various health capacities. If you don't like
working in big offices. Don't. If you want to work in teams, when the rest of
the tech world you know encourages solo endeavours & alpha-male heroes then
you can choose to work in teams. You get to choose with who you work with.
It's not easy in any stretch of the imagination.

There's been some high profile suicides of late. And it's a waste of life. A
horid and chronic waste of life. Whilst there's a few people who hold nasty
views on this, I believe the vast majority of people would just rather find a
way to help people out through their struggles. I've seen an unexpected side-
effect, of others who in one startup forum, have been much more open about
their health issues, and in particular addiction. Being more open about health
issues is important. Helping people is important. Saying don't do a particular
line of work is daft!

Imagine an ordinary every day office job Joe, who suffers from depression, but
yet fights on every day despite massive calls from within to do nothing, or
stay in bed. These people deal with far bigger ups n downs than most. I'd
argue that if that person finds that they're much better off without the
'ordinary every day office job' and finds a sustainable team to work as part
of in a startup that they've passion for they're going to be in a better
place. Also due to the past fights they've been through, they're going to be
much better equipped to deal with the ups n downs of startups than people who
havn't suffered from depression.

Startups give opportunity to create a sustainable business and to have a much
greater influence on creating a sustainable workplace than merely being
employee number 30+ in an established business.

If anyone reads this article and thinks startups are not for me then please do
get in touch. I'm <http://ianmoss.com/contact>

Have a great day :)

~~~
pcote
I disagree. The article makes sense to me and could be also applied to a lot
of situations. Certain career paths shouldn't be pursued with depression
unless they got help first. Would you recommend a depressed person pursue
becoming a mortician, skydiving instructor, or prison guard just because they
wanted to?

~~~
oceanician
Ermm. Non of those career options arn't open to someone because they suffer
from depression! Why would you think that? A prison guard capable of empathy
might deliver bigger results in reducing reoffending rates than one that
doesn't. A sky diver capable of conquering fears? Oh, I think that might be
quite useful. Not sure about mortician tbh. What is the ideal mortician?
Probably someone who cares that the family of the deceased.

(1 in 10 people suffer from depression. It doesn't necessarily have any link
with death, apart from in a few very unfortunate cases - it mostly results in
a reduced quality of life, and with awareness and help from those that care
there's ways around the problems the affected people have. It's more a case of
stopping trying to fit square pegs into round holes, than stopping doing
anything)

Would you recommend a person who has suffered from depression, not become a
politician or prime minister?

------
nraynaud
I find this crazy. You don't start something because you want to. You start
because you feel you have to.

I don't feel like I could last more than 3 months at bigco, that is if my lack
of degree, and my full startup career, and "no-nonsense" attitude woud not
block me at the recruitment process.

When you need control of your office life, when you _have_ to be able to make
a better expense report system if you see a problem, when you want to impact
the end product in a major way, when you want to select the people you will
work with, then you have to go for small and young companies.

~~~
aangjie
> You don't start something because you want to. You start because you feel
> you have to.

Seconded. Though i haven't done any new startups, except work at a small one.

OTOH, as someone known to have been depressed, i would say he makes a good
point. i could identify with that eiffel tower climbing as an attempt to cure
the fear of failure analogy very well.

~~~
nraynaud
I'm extremely worried, I'm locked out of bigco (for the best), I don't want to
be locked ou of startup land.

The herd mentality is so strong in this part of work world that it might
really be quick.

~~~
jacquesm
It's not 'either do bigco or do a start-up'. You could probably do great as a
consultant or a contractor. That way you still get to write your own ticket
and you avoid the (majority of) the stress.

~~~
nraynaud
I'm just bad at service, I tried being a contractor and then an independent
consultant and it was a disaster.

I work for products, I need a team with the skills I don't have, I need to
make mistakes and correct them on the way to a product that sells. I need
smart people doing stuff I didn't know where possible that quick, I like to
cut the red-tape and corp. foolishness for them, I like to bring candidates in
the middle of the team and check if they fit or not, I like to say "sorry" to
a customer after someone makes a mistake that wrongs them. I like going on
skype a 3AM after a pagerduty alert and seeing we're 2 or 3 on the incident.
And I like the fight against clutter and complexity inside growing companies.

------
DanielBMarkham
I note that this title could be written in a different way.

"Suffering from depression? Would you like to be? Try a startup!"

I joke -- a bit.

I've been at this startup thing for a few years, and who knows how much longer
I'll be at this until I'm happy with it. Probably never.

The more I do this, the more I begin to think 1) that being somewhat insane
can help you in a startup, and 2) the people I really want to listen to and
learn from are the guys who tried for 20 years. Somebody like Zuck who hit the
lottery really has very little of import to share with me. I'm average Joe
Startup Guy. It's a different world for us.

In all honesty, I'm not so sure I would discourage depressed people from
startups. Freud thought that depressed people were just smarter than the rest
of us -- they realized how truly the world sucks. So in some sense, they may
be better equipped for startup life than other folks. Fighting depression is
fighting depression. External stimulus has little to do with it. In fact,
that's the definition of depression -- an internal state of being where you
find most everything hopeless (or pointless). There are a lot of really rich,
successful people who are depressed.

Suicidal people? Different thing entirely.

------
fmavituna
Ferruh's guide to risk free startup (for depression prone people and the rest)

= Prerequisites =

* You have proven technical skills

* You have minimum amount of social and business skills (if you don't have this, don't do startups anyway)

= What not to do =

* Do not attempt to start the next Facebook, Twitter etc. Start small. If you like your next company can be the next big thing, for now don't do it.

* Do not start something that needs huge investment. Stick with SaaS that doesn't require big operation.

= Step by Step =

1\. Find the idea

2\. Design the PoC

3\. You'll need max 1 year to deliver the product yourself

4\. Pitch it to people you know (if you can't find & convince at least 3-4 to
invest one in total of one year salary ~$80K then do not do startups). Do give
away up to 49% of the company. Do not care. So the valuation of your company
will be about 2 x your annual burn rate. i.e. $80K x 2=$160K

5\. Only accept investment from rich people who is _OK_ to lose that
investment. Try to avoid relatives. This is really really really important.

6\. Nice, now you have 1 year care-free time, do your thing.

7\. At the end of 1 year if it doesn't work, close your company go back to
your office job. If you are afraid that you can't find a job, DO NOT start
your own company, that means you don't met the prerequisites in this guide
(not technically good enough).

Congratulations, you have just started and failed a risk free startup. You
lost some time of your life but possibly you learned a lot.

If you like you can repeat this many times until actually make it a reality or
to figure out that you don't have what it takes to do this.

~~~
jacquesm
> risk free startup

That's a new one!

Nice list, it definitely mitigates some of the risks.

~~~
fmavituna
:) I think zero emotional risk is not possible because startups are personal
and depending on the person effect can be huge.

However removing the money from the equation will make things much easier for
sure. Many people perform bad when they are economically pressured and they
don't have a good plan B.

------
lhnz
I'm not sure I agree.

You seem to think that extreme stress from your mentality makes it difficult
to deal with extreme stress in your job. For many it is the opposite. If
you're riding a rollercoaster then another rollercoaster is not so scary. It
will hurt but it is expected.

The point when you decide to leave a 'comfortable' existence in BigCorp™ is
the point in which you no longer feel comfort there, and at that point you are
no longer looking to find comfort in another large company, you're looking to
take the high level of stress you have and actually get something out of it.
Oh, sure, it's 'risky' but it's nowhere close to as risky as somebody who has
never dealt with depression founding a start-up...

Don't assume that life at a company in which you don't have control over what
you work on, have no impact, and are beholden to corporate politics is somehow
more comforting and safe for depressives.

~~~
vonmoltke
I would like to add that, speaking from personal experience, your mental state
really slides downhill when you pass from just being uncomfortable to feeling
trapped. You start thinking less of yourself, your interview performance goes
down, and every failure to change your situation notches you down and actually
makes your situation worse. Sometimes the only way to break that cycle is to
say "Fuck it", quit, and do something on your own. At that point, any level of
risk looks better than certainty because the certainty sucks so bad. That is
the path I would have taken years ago, were I not stuck in Dallas. Would have
been preferable to the 2+ years of hell I went through at my "safe" job until
I finally found something else.

------
princeverma
I disagree with OP. Maintaining a job when you have depression is very
difficult, but you can work on your startup. Infact, having something to work
upon, something that you love, gives a purpose to your life.

And these are not some arbitrary statements, I was suffering from depression &
other related issues and focusing on startup really helped me. Before that, I
was at bottom point of my life. Working on a idea, idea that i loved, was only
one reason because of which i was waking up in the morning.

But, then again, I can see that startup is not a medicine for depression. It
may have worked for me but there is no guarantee it will work for other. Even
then, we can't say that if you are suffering from depression then startups are
not for you.

------
pknight
I don't have the data in terms of startups to back it up but there are a
couple reasons why someone who is suffering from depression can actually
thrive. Some people suffering from depression may be especially good at
working on hard problems and seeing them through, spotting issues (not being
blinded by them) and bringing creativity.

On the flipside, people who are perfectly happy in regular jobs might crumble
in startup situations because it does invite a great deal more struggle.

I'm not saying that people suffering from depression should go into startups
for that reason and I agree that startup success is typically low. I don't
find the message that compelling though, as if a depressed person will be
appreciatively better off with a 'steady job' (to the extent such jobs still
exist). Soulless jobs are a big reason people get depressed in the first
place.

If you do suffer from depression, regardless of your occupation it should be a
priority to figure out how to manage it, to have a strong support system in
place and put your health first.

Winston Churchill suffered from terrible bouts of depression but he that
didn't stop him from doing what he felt he needed to do. I certainly wouldn't
base a career choice on a sweeping generalization.

------
spellboots
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

I'm sorry for what you have been through but ultimately, this article, whilst
coming from a thoughtful and heartfelt place, is ultimately just displaying
misunderstanding and bias against mental illness.

Some people should not do startups. Some people suffer from some degree of
mental illness. There will be some overlap in these groups but it is
insensitive and prejudiced to suggest that the groups are the same.

~~~
jacquesm
Of course those groups are not the same. But from where I'm sitting it looks
like one of the groups has significant overlap with the other group.

~~~
spellboots
Yes, I can tell that you are prejudiced against people suffering from mental
illness from what your wrote, and I'm sure this is due to what you
experienced.

Often prejudices are due to personal experience. Many people think that women
are less capable in tech roles due to personal experience. Many people are
prejudiced against other races due to personal experience. And many people are
prejudiced against people suffering from mental illness due to personal
experience.

Just because of your personal experience, does not mean it is not prejudice.
Even though I'm sure your intentions are admirable, ultimately your message is
incredibly negative towards a subset of the population based on anecdotal
evidence, and this is why I am calling it out.

Anyone should think carefully before embarking on a startup and be aware of
the huge trials they will face. However you should not be dissuaded from
trying _solely_ because you are a certain gender, a certain race, or have a
certain illness. This is why I disagree with what you have written.

------
vickytnz
Perhaps a better way of phrasing this is: suffering from depression? Don't do
that startup _unless you have a safety net_ (of course, that could apply to
people without depression too). Hell, I'd say that applies to doing a PhD (I'm
in one right now) or anything that does mean you have to deal with a lot of
ambiguity on your own. In those situations it's all too easy for even the most
mentally secure person to start neglecting themselves in the service of the
work (mentally, emotionally, psychologically, physically), potentially to
disastrous effects.

~~~
vickytnz
Oh, and to add to my own comment, I'd also say you could swap out "depression"
to "ongoing medical condition".

Similar thing, it's fine if you manage it, if you don't things could get a
whole lot worse (and other people will end up hating you for either carrying
your load or being let down)

------
burpee
I don't think depression necessarily means you shouldn't do a start-up.

People who know what depression is and know how it works can actually quite
often cope with it better than people who don't know what depression is. If
all you've ever had in your life was happiness and success, then a depression
can suddenly have a far greater impact on you than someone who knows how it
feels.

In that sense, I think that people who are suffering from _suicidal
tendencies_ should stay away from startups at all costs.

When running a startup, the ups and the downs in life are far greater than
when working for someone else. The thrill when things are going up is why it's
so attractive, but everyone who has ever done a startup knows the horrors of
crashing and burning - and you _will_ crash and burn at one point or another.

Almost nobody I know will come out of a crash without some mental bruising,
some hurt ego, some depression. They may not show it, but even the most
ruthless businessmen have to deal with failure and the associated feelings of
depression.

If you are unable to handle the lows that come with startups, and if you are
at risk of hurting yourself, startups are not for you and I would recommend
working for someone else. Otherwise, if you do occasionally get depressed when
something in life doesn't go so well, but you always get back on the saddle
after a short period of depression, then startups are perfect for you.

------
nathell
If I could upvote this a hundred times, I would.

I left a startup I co-founded after almost two years of engagement that was
becoming increasingly half-hearted -- with symptoms of a mental health problem
already showing and just in time to prevent the effects from being
devastating. I did learn a lot, but in retrospect the decision to leave was
good both for me and for the startup.

------
mokash
I see it the other way around. Creating a start-up is supposed to be fun and
exciting as well as challenging. Someone suffering from depression starting a
start-up could be a great way to get over their depression by working on
something their passionate about.

I suppose there are many sides to this debate but that's just how I see it.

~~~
jacquesm
Start-ups are only 'fun and exciting' the first 90 days (if you last that
long) before your first major crisis will hit. If it isn't like that you are
not trying hard enough.

Side projects can be fun and exciting as long as you stay the hell away from
success. There are not 'many sides' to this debate, people prone to heart
failure should not be trying to set world records, people that suffer from
depression should not do start-ups. It's simply asking for trouble.

------
eksith
Overall good advice, but I don't know if completely dissuading someone with a
history of depression from founding a startup works. There's no reason you
can't succeed, it's just that the risk of failure (or runaway success) can be
dangerous without support.

The main point people miss when someone goes about with a startup idea is that
most of the time, it's _just you_.

There's rarely a saftey net, often no co-founders, and sometimes not even
anyone else to confide in. Well, not if you want to show weakness and still
have any investors left. That's an awfully lonely and frightening place to be
for someone who doesn't have a history of depression, so the condition will
only compound the problem.

And a startup need not fail either for all of this turmoil to kick in. Often
times, success has very similar consequences.

------
chrisvineup
I agree in principle, but for some of us working startups is just too much
engrained in our fibres. I love it, but its hard work. We would do much better
as a collective community work on removing the stigma of depression rather so
people can work around it (if possible).

------
brador
I believe there are different types of depression, with different causes and
different solutions. Poverty leads to one type, boredom another, stress,
uncertainty, loneliness. This list has not been checked for completeness.

A startup, especially if it's your first, contains nearly every trigger listed
above. but many who are already depressed see it as a way out of depression.
Since if successful, it also covers nearly all solutions.

For some then, a startup is not a choice, it's the only visible way out.

------
tezza
Good article. It adds something valuable to the (anti/)cheerleading body of
evidence that a lot of aspiring startup folk base their should-or-shouldn't-I
decisions on.

I would add that I know several people who committed suicide, and these
incidents lead us who are left behind to build a mental model of suicide
reasons.

My personal suicide anecdote model says:

\- If you are depressive please avoid:

\- * show-business ( esp. if you have early success )

\- * entering a heterosexual marriage and having children if you are actually
homosexual

~~~
taejo
I think we can remove the "if you are depressive" from the last one.

~~~
tezza
I agree very much ! But I would say that then the statement becomes 'general-
good-advice' rather than 'suicide agent'

------
dmoney
Suffering from depression? Don't get into that relationship. When you've
invested years of your life, and a part of yourself, into someone, and you
lose that person, it's harsh. Also, don't have children, because that could be
stressful too. BS!

Some aspects of startups are probably unhealthy for people prone to
depression: 80 hour weeks, risking everything on a business model without
revenue, the culture that says you have to "change the world". If you start a
company, though, you set the parameters. Work 40 hours a week. Choose a less
risky business model, one that has revenue built in from the get-go. Have
cofounders to share the burden; have a support system, preferably one that
includes people outside your startup's reality distortion field. Realize that
you have limits, that the startup can push those limits, and have a plan for
dealing with that (both for steering clear of the limit, and for coping when
you've crossed it). Know thyself.

We shouldn't pretend depression doesn't exist. But, like other chronic
conditions there are ways to manage it, and, I submit, ways to do that while
starting a startup.

~~~
bayesianhorse
"Risking" everything seems to be part of the "lean startup" mentality.
Incubators and early stage funding is intended to trade equity for exactly
that risk.

------
craigmc
Depression is not a barrier to doing a startup. Indeed, given that a large
number of people (statistics vary widely as to the exact %) suffer from
depression at some point in their lives, it is likely that there are far more
happy outcomes of depressed people (or people prone to depression) doing
startups than there are tragic cases where it has led to suicide.

There is some evidence that depressive spells can lead to more clarity - this
is wrapped up in the debate as to why depression exists in the first place.
Additionally, the severity of the depression is a major factor - I have seen
people entirely incapacitated by it, whereas others are able to effectively
manage it using therapy and/or meds.

Also relevant is the nature/cause of the depression - it is possible to suffer
from symptoms of depression (i.e. scoring highly on, say, the Beck depression
inventory) that are largely situational - i.e. they are brought on by a job
you hate, a bad relationship, etc. In these cases, doing a startup might
actually be something that enables you to focus your energy and actually
reduce or eliminate the symptoms entirely.

~~~
Millennium
Depression is largely an episodic thing (dysthymia, though it's sometimes
called "chronic depression", is actually a distinct issue). Many people do
indeed go through one or more episodes in their lives, and this is not
necessarily a problem. But like all mental faculties, it can get out of
control, and then the problem becomes serious.

I'd say that going through a depressive episode actually is a barrier to doing
a startup. The reason is simple: getting a startup off the ground requires
almost all-consuming motivation, but one of the most common symptoms of
depression is impaired motivation. In other words, depression hits right at
the heart of what makes startups workable, and while this is not necessarily
insurmountable, calling it suboptimal is an understatement. The wise thing to
do would be to get it back under control, and then start the business when
you're in a better state to see it through.

------
Sakes
I suffer from depression, but there is a silver lining to it. You learn how to
cope with and overcome hopelessness. You basically become emotionally
impermeable to anything the world (startup or regular) can throw at you
because you've already lived through the worst of it in a broken mind.

Now this is the perspective of someone that has known depression for a long
time. If you are new to depression should you do a startup??? As long as you
are getting professional help, you can do whatever you want. If that is a
startup, then do the startup. Just recognize that you have to actively address
your depression in the beginning as you learn how to reduce it, weather its
storms & live with the residual aftermath.

Depression is nothing to fear, its just something that sucks for a while, and
sucks less and less over time. But if you do have it, I hope you find
happiness in knowing that you will become stronger and a more resilient as a
result of it, which seem like pretty good characteristics for a co-founder to
have.

------
ZoFreX
Note to people that know me IRL: This comment is quite personal. Feel free to
read it but please bear that in mind.

I've really been trying to bite my tongue in the last 2 months but the number
of articles about depression on HN is overwhelming and it's starting to bug
me. A lot. And by "bug" I mean "upset, anger, and insult".

Here's some ground rules for not being insulting. It is possible to break
these rules and not be insulting, but it's hard, so for a crude guide I think
they are of some use:

1\. If you don't and have never suffered from depression, don't tell people
who do what they should and should not do.

2\. Do not ascribe people's actions to their disease, nor predict them based
on them having the disease.

3\. Do not assume there is a correlation between depression and suicide. The
connection is actually very weak, far weaker than most people assume.

4\. Don't use (or even make mention of) other people's deaths for your own
cause.

If you don't understand any of these, or see a need for them, please ask and I
will expand.

\---

Specifically regarding this article, but by no means is this the worst
offender in recent memory (I just feel that, out of everyone, Jacques will
actually read this):

If you want to write an article saying that running a start up is very
stressful in certain ways, that you need to have certain other areas of your
life in order, go for it.

Don't cover it with the blanket "don't do it if you have depression".

Why?

Stress isn't linear and some people can cope with some forms of stress better
than others. What would break one person another could power through. Some
people stress most at the thought of being homeless and jobless, other people
find the idea of being stable secure and in a rut far more stressful.

Some people who don't have depression would fold under the stress of running a
startup.

Some people who do have depression would rise to the challenge. It may even
help them to have more control over their situation.

So in terms of a classifier for who can run a start up, depression isn't a
particularly useful variable.

On: "taking their own life because"

Just don't go there. Please. You have no idea why they did it or what was
going on. How many of your friends ran startups just fine while managing
depression, and you had no idea they were depressed? How many people commit
suicide seemingly randomly because no one else has any idea what is really
going on inside their heads?

People with depression aren't fragile timebombs that if you aren't super nice
to, they will kill themselves.

\---

So, I've tried to keep things cool and rational so the things I am saying are
hopefully sensible and self-evident. But I do want to impress upon you,
Jacques, and you the reader, and especially you the HN contributor who might
write an article like this in the future:

This advice is toxic. It is horrible. It is exclusionary. I suffer from
depression that varies from the extreme mild end of the scale the majority of
the time, all the way to the severe end of the spectrum at its worst. The one
constant is that it is always present, even if in a very mild form. You are
effectively telling me: "You will never make it. You don't have what it takes
- some quality that I have, and you do not. Because of a disease you have due
to no fault of your own, you won't make it in the startup world. Your dreams
are futile and you should stick to the 9-5".

How would you react if someone had told you that some years ago, before you
starting doing your thing? There are times when my reaction would be to curl
up, give up, cry. Even now I am shaking not just with anger but also because I
want to cry. These days though I am stronger - it is possible to have
depression and yet be strong - and so my response is simple: "Fuck you. I'll
do what I want."

I really hope that others reading this article have the same reaction, not
because it is a good one (I would much rather the reaction be "What a useful
and insightful article, I know what my next steps should be") but because it
is far, far better than the alternative - to give up.

~~~
overcyn
> Do not assume there is a correlation between depression and suicide. The
> connection is actually very weak, far weaker than most people assume.

Do you have a source for this? I've been searching for a bit, but can't find
anything that indicates depression is very weakly related to suicide.

~~~
bayesianhorse
I believe the correlation is there, but it can be very misleading. The
presupposition in the article is that a prospective start-up founder knows he
has a mental health problem. In that case, his suicide risk is already lower.

------
emillerm
This makes me think of Abraham Lincoln, who was known to suffer from deep
bouts of depression. What would have happened if somebody told him not to run
for president?

I don't think suffering from depression alone is enough to rule anybody out of
any particular field. There are ways of managing depression with the right
support structures, therapy, medication, etc.

------
precisioncoder
It's worth Googling "CEO Disorder" and looking through the results. Apparently
Bipolar and manic depressive people have a correlation with being CEO's and
successful entrepreneurs. Whether this is simply an interesting correlation or
if there is a causation from one side or the other is an interesting topic to
think about.

------
kybernetyk
> For some reason start-ups are a magnet for people that suffer from
> depression.

Hmm, I don't know if this is true. Maybe we just see it that way because of
the vocal minority effect? Bluntly put: We don't see many 'hey, Joe didn't
kill himself/isn't depressive' posts being written.

------
eduardordm
Also consider that depression sometimes is 'latent' and the startup roller
coaster can be the triggering factor. My first co-founder (and lifetime
friend) committed suicide a year after leaving the company to become a federal
agent. We could never have guessed he was suffering from severe depression.

People seems to think that depression is a personality issue/characteristic,
not an actual decease. Depression is a curable decease that sometimes can even
be detected with blood and saliva tests. It requires medical attention and
almost every case ends up in drug treatments.

If your doctor understands what a startup is and allows you to do it, I don't
see why you shouldn't. You can't scape from depression by not doing a startup.

------
ritchiea
This article assumes that depression and difficulty coping with failure are
one and the same. When in fact depression and difficulty coping with failure
can be two pretty distinct personality traits. I'm sure there's some
correlation but many of the depressed friends I've had seemed depressed no
matter what. Their depressive state having no causal relationship to whether
they were doing well or poorly professionally.

------
supercoder
How about if you have depression then maybe get the depression looked at and
managed ?

It's terrible advice to just go and 'get a stable job' as you're clearly just
treating the symptom not the cause.

There's probably lots of things you shouldn't do if you have depression,
that's why it's not a good thing to have depression and you should seek help,
not run away.

------
bayesianhorse
This is basically medical advice, given by someone without any medical
training.

Would these people he is talking about have committed suicide if not in a
start-up?

There is a link between stress and depression, and between depression and
suicide. But for a lot individuals, both links just don't exist. Life is
complicated. Sweeping advice is as bad as no advice.

------
michaelochurch
People are ripping on the OP, but I think his advice is good.

VC-istan is corporate life. Corporate life, for most people in most
organizations, _is depressing_. All of it, whether it's a startup or some
dead-end subordinate position at a Fortune 500, is pretty awful. The natural
human tendency toward work has been perverted through subordination,
inadequate rewards, wasted efforts, and capricious evaluation.

The difference is that the former is often all-consuming, while the latter
tends to be, although miserable, limited in scope. If you tend toward
depression, you're more likely to have it flare up in a 90-hour VC-istan gig
than a 40-hour corporate job.

The problem isn't that business formation itself is detrimental, but that VC-
istan is an ecosystem where (a) economic life dominates a person's existence,
crowding out everything else, and (b) there's extreme volatility with no
safety net. If you're a grunt, your startup might acqui-fail and dump you into
a subordinate position that makes no sense, or you might get fired on day 364
with no severance and no equity because of the "cliff". If you're a founder,
your investors hold all the cards and you're just there to do the legwork
until you burn out and fall to pieces (and will then be replaced either with
one of their friends, or another young, clueless, idiot).

It's not startups that are the problem, though. It's unhealthy work
environments.

------
LatvjuAvs
What life is worth?

