
Idaho sets record low solar price as it starts on shift to 100pct renewables - chdaniel
https://reneweconomy.com.au/idaho-sets-record-low-solar-price-as-it-starts-on-shift-to-100pct-renewables-38566/
======
niftich
Idaho Power is one of the three big power companies that covers a portion of
Idaho -- they serve the southwest, Avista is in the northwest, and PacifiCorp
is in spots in the southeast [1].

Idaho Power has been, for several years, planning to pull out as a partner
from the 3 coal power plants it has an ownership share in: North Valmy in NV,
Jim Bridger in WY, and Boardman in OR [2]. Jim Bridger will have soon been due
for an expensive upgrade because of environmental regulations, Boardman has
seen consistent pressure from Oregon activists and regulators to bring the
shutdown date closer, and North Valmy has seen less and less use because the
other owner has succeeded meeting most of the Northern Nevada demand with a
robust mix of natgas and solar, but also has fresh interconnects with Southern
Nevada and Idaho.

In 2018, Idaho Power also joined [3] the Western Energy Imbalance Market,
which streamlines realtime energy trading in the WECC interconnect. As time
goes on and coal plants are retired, coal's share will decline in the energy
mix, and there will be an increasing amount of quasi-'baseload' solar
available to buy in the energy market. And for the times in the day when the
solar generation drops off and natgas plants would often be the next sellers,
Idaho Power has plenty of its own hydro it can deploy to compensate. But note
that despite their well-situated position with renewables, their target for
100% renewables is still 2045 -- relatively far off.

[1] (PDF) [https://oemr.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/3.6.18-Energy-
Land...](https://oemr.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/3.6.18-Energy-
Landscape-2018.pdf) [2] [http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/sep/16/power-
company-m...](http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/sep/16/power-company-maps-
energy-plan-for-idaho-and-orego/) [3] [https://www.idahopower.com/news/idaho-
power-customers-will-b...](https://www.idahopower.com/news/idaho-power-
customers-will-benefit-regional-energy-market/)

~~~
sremani
>> and for the times in the day when the solar generation drops of

The problem with areas north of 42N is not that times of day.. its the times
of year!

Jun 22 - 15:30 hrs of sunlight Dec 22 - 9:00 hrs of sunlight

there are 206 sunny days per year in Boise (could not find twin falls).

~~~
philipkglass
The seasonality of solar is reasonably well matched to Idaho's consumption
patterns. The 3 months with the highest demand for fossil generated
electricity in Idaho are July, August, and September. This is in contrast to
e.g. Germany where wintertime demand is highest.

Source:
[https://www.eia.gov/electricity/data/state/](https://www.eia.gov/electricity/data/state/)

Awkwardly, this excellent data is all in Excel files. I got the numbers from
Monthly data from Electric Power Monthly - Fossil Fuel Consumption for
Electricity Generation by Year, Industry Type and State, using sheet
2018_Preliminary inside the spreadsheet.

------
tim333
Batteries are getting more reasonable too and dropping about 15% per annum.
Roll on green energy. [https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/09/100-kwh-tesla-
battery-c...](https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/09/100-kwh-tesla-battery-
cells-this-year-100-kwh-tesla-battery-packs-in-2020/)

~~~
mrjaeger
Not being cynical but genuinely curious: Is that rate of price decrease (15%)
expected to keep up in the near/medium term? Is there any sort of Moore's law
for battery cost?

~~~
tim333
Moore's law was always partly an economic phenomena - that companies figured
things would improve by x per year and so invested accordingly to keep up with
their competitors. I imagine something similar will happen with batteries. It
relies on there being a lot of demand to fund the investment but I think that
will be the case here - indeed battery spend per year will probably pick up as
they become more practical for cars and grid use. These things can end or
morph as you hit limits from the laws of physics as is happening with Moore's
law but there seems a way to go with batteries.

~~~
philwelch
There was also a "Moore's law" of aviation. We got from the Wright Flyer to
the first jet fighter, the Me 262, in just under 40 years--1903 to 1942.

~~~
usrusr
Then another 25 years from the 262 do the 737, then twice as many years from
the 737 to the 737 MAX. I always think of aviation when someone tries to
extrapolate technology.

(PS: imagine the bold branding experiment if they had called it "50 years
anniversary edition" instead of "MAX")

~~~
rootusrootus
Reminds me of the B-52, which first flew less than 50 years after the Wright
Flyer, but will have been flying for about a hundred years by the time it is
retired. Feels like we haven't really fundamentally changed aviation
technology since the early days, just incremental improvements in materials.

~~~
philwelch
Even supersonic flight was common by the 1950's. The obvious breakthroughs
from here, like hypersonic flight, have been achievable but expensive and not
worth it since the 1970's or so.

------
mrpopo
Idaho energy profile overview :

[https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=ID](https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=ID)

Hydroelectric power supplied 60% of net electricity generation in Idaho in
2017. If a large share of it were pumped storage hydro, that would be very
helpful for a 100% renewable target (free electricity storage to replace
batteries).

Idaho generates 0.4% of the USA's electricity.

~~~
Arnt
You don't need pump storage when you have 60% hydro, all you need is to change
the rate of production. When the sun shines so the shops run out of sunscreen
and facebook explodes with complaints you go down to 20% hydro, when the
situation is the opposite and facebook explodes with complaints, you go up to
100% hydro (both numbers totally fudged of course).

~~~
C1sc0cat
Pumped storage is for managing peak demand - you can go from zero to huge
amounts of power very very quickly and avoid using the expensive and polluting
standby by capacity.

~~~
Arnt
I'm curious. If you have 60% hydro, you have a lot of water coming into the
reservoirs from snow melt. Why would you bother with pumping up more water
from below?

~~~
Aromasin
There's rarely ever enough water coming from upstream to counter the huge
amount of water that gets dumped during peak energy consumption hours. If
you've got extra grid power left over that's not being used during trough
hours and it's not used to refill the reservoir, or stored in some other way
(lithium-ion batteries, hydrogen gas production etc.) it's just going to go to
waste.

~~~
Arnt
I see.

That doesn't apply to the present subject though; Idaho uses mostly snow, and
for a reservoir that buffers most of a winter's snow, a day's peak/trough
energy consumption is a rounding error.

------
droithomme
There are 62 companies that have an address matching 515 N 27th St Boise, ID
83702.

The companies are Helm Pv Solar One LLC, Tumbleweed Energy LLC, Grand View
Solar Pv One, Life After The Fire Inc, Acc LLC, Thompson River Co Gen LLC,
Richardson Investments LLC, Farm 2 Market LLC, Grand View Pv Solar One LLC,
Mcomm LLC, Meadow View Investment Properties LLC, Alternative Power
Development Northwest LLC, Bubba Gump Algae LLC, Pleasanton Property LLC,
Global Trade Consulting Services LLC, Ameci Coffee Wine Bar, Earth Paw LLC,
Solutionssite Inc, One Eighty Networks Inc, Best Buddies LLC, Occasionz Party
Store LLC, Idaho Farm Energy Association Inc, Just Horse Inn Around LLC,
Postural Integrity LLC, Clpr Investments LLC, Helm Pv Solar One LLC, Grand
View Pv Solar Four LLC, Grand View Pv Solar Three LLC, Lhn LLC, Lifelong
Learning Academy LLC, Orem Family Wind LLC, Mariah Wind LLC, Gonzalez Gonzalez
LLC, Ch Property Services LLC, River Time Yoga LLC, B4dc Freight LLC,
Hammerhead Enterprises LLC, Jerrod LLC, Ies Language Foundation LLC, Grand
View Pv Solar Five A LLC, Magic Dirt LLC, Black Sands Solar, Black Sands Solar
A, Jackpot Solar North LLC, Overton Solar LLC, Jackpot Solar South LLC,
Jackpot Solar East LLC, Jackpot Solar West LLC, Carter Solar One LLC, Jackpot
Solar 2 I LLC, Jackpot Solar 2 Ii LLC, Jackpot Solar 2 Iii LLC, Jackpot Solar
2 Iv LLC, Jackpot Solar 2 V LLC, Franklin Energy Storage Four LLC, Franklin
Energy Storage One LLC, Franklin Energy Storage Three LLC, Franklin Energy
Storage Two LLC, Jackpot Solar Annex LLC, Franklin Solar LLC, Jackpot LLC, and
Jackpot Holdings LLC.

The sign outside the address, which is a small single family home, announces a
law office.

This particular law office has been filing lawsuits against the Idaho power
company for over a decade.

The Jackpot etc LLCs seem to connect to an alias out of Nevada.

There's various information on these entities in a variety of places but no
one's put together a really complete picture. Here's some interesting
background from three years ago:

[https://www.puc.idaho.gov/press/161007_IPCJackpotSolar.pdf](https://www.puc.idaho.gov/press/161007_IPCJackpotSolar.pdf)

~~~
dmeeker
That's not surprising -- those companies are all using their attorneys for
registered agent services, and the law firm states that they specialize in
energy companies -- both transactions and litigation.

It appears that the developers of solar projects follow the same pattern of
real-estate developers: each project gets its own LLC, which allows them to
contain any potential liability for the project, as well as sell ownership
interests in the LLC to raise the funds for the project.

Per your linked article (and easily confirmable through public records), the
Jackpot* series are all projects of Robert Paul of Alternative Power
Development who has been quoted in the Idaho press about solar for the last
decade.

~~~
dmix
> each project gets its own LLC, which allows them to contain any potential
> liability for the project

Interesting. That's a great idea for any fixed time + capital intensive
projects. Keeps the structure, ownership, and responsibilities clean for a
small amount of legal/paperwork.

~~~
tracker1
A lot of rental properties do the same. Each property is its' own LLC to
minimize potential liability/risk.

~~~
ABCLAW
>Each property is its' own LLC to minimize potential liability/risk.

The individual SVP structure for rental properties is primarily used to avoid
land sale taxes. Sell the shares, not the building/land etc. to benefit from a
different tax regime.

------
mbell
This is a rather misleading title, the article is about a single company
(Idaho Power), not the state of Idaho.

The state still gets ~33% of its electricity from out of state, mostly from
coal plants. In terms of overall energy, the state uses more than 3 times as
much energy from fossil fuels as it generates from hydro, by the looks of it
more natural gas based energy is used for heating than hydro is used for
power. Unless my math is off the solar plant is question represents 0.077% of
the states energy usage.

Source: [https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=ID](https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=ID)

------
zaroth
The greatest strength of technology is the exponential gains in capability at
constant cost over time, or alternatively the exponential decrease in cost
over time for the same capability.

Sometimes that exponential gain gets partially squandered to provide for
greater productivity or lower cost development or marketing gimmicks or tiny
little improvements in the fringe UX which can offer subtle delights.

Other times the product is something constant and perfectly standardized like
MWs or kWh (generation or storage of energy) and we can sit back as a society
and watch the prices fall, fall, fall.

The endgame is abundant electricity at a fraction of the ecological cost used
pervasively to power every aspect of the economy.

Electric cars aren’t sci-fi anymore. Now we dream of _flying_ through
electrical power alone, which is about as ostentatious as it gets.

It’s perhaps not the popular opinion on HN, and obviously a lot is at stake,
but this is the making of the carbon-neutral economy, and it’s being done in a
technologically and market driven approach that doesn’t involve trillions of
dollars of taxes or regulatory burden.

I do not believe it will prove to be too little or too late. I absolutely
believe that technologies will continue to evolve and be discovered that allow
us to move our global ecological impact from the red (deficit) to the green
(surplus) and in the very long term from a political sense, but in the blink
of an eye for our planet, this 21st century panic will seem really quite
overblown.

It’s crucially import for people to care. For people to dream up new ways to
stop damaging the planet and even heal the planet. I just think time and again
we underestimate human ingenuity and overestimate calamity.

Global climate [change] indeed impacts millions of people every year and
carries a massive economic cost. I have absolute faith in the scientists and
the inventors to constantly push us toward a healthy, clean, efficient, and
_abundant_ future.

~~~
matthewdgreen
I am hopeful the same way you are. But nobody should ignore the fact that
current developments in solar panel prices were _heavily_ driven by government
policy. Unguided market forces may get there eventually, but we don't have
enough time for "eventually". (And we certainly don't have any time for
misguided plans that actually try to subsidize carbon emissions, which is a
big chunk of our current policy.)

~~~
briandear
> but we don't have enough time for "eventually".

I disagree with this. We’ve been told throughout the past 50 years that we
“only have 10 more years to fix x.” And every single time the end of the world
failed to arrive as scheduled. The sense of extreme urgency is nothing more
than politics: an attempt to scare people into demanding a shift in the
ownership of the means of production to fit political goals rather than
environmental ones. A thought experiment: if capitalism could solve the
climate tomorrow and BP and Exxon were at the forefront of it, would AOC and
friends support it? Of course not. The only “solution” that crowd cares about
is one that involves pure socialism which calls into question their actual
commitment to the environment. It appears that improving the environment is
being used as a means rather than an end: our fear of environmental calamity
seemingly obfuscates our memory of the lack of freedom under Soviet styles of
government.

If protecting the environment would stop serving as a dog whistle for anti-
capitalism, then we’d could make a lot more progress on actually improving the
environment.

~~~
ljcn
I don't think your premise is correct. There have indeed been a lot of
environmental scares (ozone layer, acid rain, ..., which were fortunately
fixed with international effort), but mainstream climate science has if
anything been far too conservative. For example, we're at the upper end of
climate model ensembles from just ten years ago.[0]

[0] [http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-
models.htm](http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-models.htm)

------
forsaken
Curious of the politics that has folks in Idaho talking so warmly about
renewable energy. If you believe the national news, all red states want to
keep burning coal. Curious about the background here.

~~~
kevin42
Idahoan here.

Just a guess here, but most people don't realize how pristine and beautiful it
really is here. The reason I mention that is, outdoor activities like hunting
fishing, camping, boating, etc. are a huge part of people's lives here. We
have massive areas of protected wilderness.

My point is, as conservative as it is here, I think even our conservatives
care more for the environment than average, because they spend a lot of time
enjoying it.

It's a similar thing with wildlife. The avid hunters are often the biggest
protectors of habitats. Same with fisherman and rivers and streams.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>how pristine and beautiful it really is here. The

Keep talking like that on the internet and it will rapidly take a turn for the
worse.

Colorado used to be a lot like Idaho then it achieved a "brand image" as a
vacation spot, after about a generation of people retiring to their vacation
spot and people moving there because they can and the state is in a tailspin
(being an early adopter on weed probably didn't help but that's beside the
point). Now the cost of living is skyrocketing and Denver/Boulder seem to be
hell bent on recreating all the bad (bad for people who aren't wealthy, that
is) decisions of a certain west coast state.

Economy, people, natural environment, no place can be highly favorable to all
three. You can make big bucks and enjoy nature all you want in CA but the rest
of your life will be a rat race. You can live a nice life and make good money
in some places on the east coast but god help you if you want to get outdoors
once in awhile. There are still many highly rural states where you can enjoy
nature and have a nice life but you won't be making big bucks there.

~~~
linuxftw
> Now the cost of living is skyrocketing and Denver/Boulder seem to be hell
> bent on recreating all the bad (bad for people who aren't wealthy, that is)
> decisions of a certain west coast state.

This is the net result of asset inflation. The North East and California got
rich via big-bank (Federal Reserve and Wall St) driven asset inflation. People
are logically cashing out and moving to lower cost of living areas.

------
DubiousPusher
> at a cost of US2.175¢/kWh

Are those units correct? Isn't a kWh of power much cheaper than that already?

edit: My mistake. I was reading that as $/kWh. You just don't see stuff priced
in cents very often anymore.

------
Jedd
There'll be the usual pro-fission claims from the anti-renewables taskforce
I'm sure, but these kinds of stories continue to boost claims that we can move
away from fossil+nostorage without any significant disruption.

~~~
maxerickson
They have 60% hydro there. It's not an especially useful data point in places
where hydro is fully developed and accounts for a much smaller fraction of
generation.

~~~
Jedd
Hydro's great, but without a low-end storage for the water, it's a one-way
journey, which is an unfortunate exposure.

There's also some unsettling calculations around methane generation from
flooded flora.

Still, long-term undeniably better than fossil or nuclear fission.

~~~
DennisP
I would dispute your fission claim but I guess I'll refrain from kicking off
yet another nuclear discussion in a renewables thread.

------
YeahSureWhyNot
is this an australian magazine writing about american Idaho or they have an
idaho in Australia too?

~~~
Splendor
This is about American Idaho.

------
elsonrodriguez
It worries me that we worry more about the monetary cost of producing energy
more than the energy cost of producing energy.

------
waynenilsen
* After subsidies

~~~
tim333
I don't see a mention of subsidies. Any details?

