
Why Is the NYPD So Powerful? - panic
https://rossbarkan.substack.com/p/why-is-the-nypd-so-powerful
======
MattGaiser
NYPD polls well.

Granted, these are a bit old and things could have changed, but people are
generally happy with them in New York.

[https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/03/13/poll-shows-broad-
sup...](https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/03/13/poll-shows-broad-support-for-
nypd-surveillance-of-muslims/)

[https://www.themarshallproject.org/2018/07/16/yelp-for-
cops](https://www.themarshallproject.org/2018/07/16/yelp-for-cops)

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/)

In general in America, police are very trusted and even in years with
significant issues, that trust did not sharply decline:

[https://news.gallup.com/poll/213869/confidence-police-
back-h...](https://news.gallup.com/poll/213869/confidence-police-back-
historical-average.aspx)

[https://news.gallup.com/poll/236243/military-small-
business-...](https://news.gallup.com/poll/236243/military-small-business-
police-stir-confidence.aspx)

Even a recent poll (two days old) had trust in police to be quite high:

[https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/axios-ipsos-
coronavir...](https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/axios-ipsos-coronavirus-
index)

As an institution, they are one of the most trusted in America:

[https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/confidence-
institutions.as...](https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/confidence-
institutions.aspx)

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _NYPD polls well_

This is one of the first things criminal reform advocates in New York are
taught. The police is well-funded and powerful and strong because it's
popularly supported, and the political class knows that.

And no amount of protesting is likely to change that. Not in the near term.
This is why "f __* the police " styled slogans are discouraged. They alienate
the only responsive audience: reasonable New Yorkers, who [EDIT: by virtue of
most New Yorkers supporting the NYPD] likely support the NYPD in general, and
have simply not prioritized your reform policy as a talking point with their
friends and elected.

~~~
cylinder
So easy to be "reasonable" when life is good.

~~~
marcinzm
Fact is, the majority of people are generally happy with their life, attacking
those people and their life just makes them hate you and support whomever is
trying to stop you. I don't see why that is unreasonable or unexpected.

~~~
bakuninsbart
If you are happy in a country built on the sweat and blood of enslaved people,
and then simply not willing to listen to their suffering, you are an aweful
human being.

~~~
marcinzm
I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth or throw insults at me.

I'm merely pointing out that violent rioters will elicit negative responses
from people who don't want society to burn down and those who stop said
rioters will elicit positive responses.

------
PKop
Think of all the money, real estate wealth, media presence and power that
exists in NYC. This is why.

NYPD can operate with impunity, because they know they will not be exposed by
local media and will be backed up by the financial power they are protecting.

Contrast this with any other city, whose police force may have unfortunate
levels of systemic cover and approval, but nothing even close to NYPD.

Additionally to all of that, the militarization of police forces that many
seem to be aware of nationally, seems to have occurred with NYPD as much as
any other force [0][1] (9/11 being the obvious reason). So they are extremely
well funded, well supported, and "well" (over) trained as far as tactics and
methods.

There's also documented, but controversial [2] examples of some of this wealth
and power mixing with ethnic conflict, that have resulted in shameful racist
abuses of... well it isn't even police, but a sort of "private" force that a
lot of people don't know about which has surprising amounts of funding and
power. Fact that something like this even exists with limited coverage in
media given the abuses is pretty surprising.

[0] [https://fpif.org/why-we-should-be-alarmed-that-israeli-
force...](https://fpif.org/why-we-should-be-alarmed-that-israeli-forces-and-u-
s-police-are-training-together/)

[1] [https://documentedny.com/2018/09/12/report-criticizes-
nypd-c...](https://documentedny.com/2018/09/12/report-criticizes-nypd-
collaboration-with-israel/)

[2] [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/18/nyregion/brooklyns-
privat...](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/18/nyregion/brooklyns-private-
jewish-patrols-wield-power-some-call-them-bullies.html)

~~~
bsanr2
It should be noted that none of the men involved in the shomrim beating of the
black man (he also happened to be gay and an artist, and lost one of his eyes
in the attack), mentioned in the article, ultimately served out any sort of
prison sentence for their roles. All of them got off on technicalities in
appeals, and no one seems interested in justice for the man whose life and
livelihood were threatened.

~~~
pnw_hazor
One person's legal technicality is another person's constitutional right.

~~~
fzeroracer
This seems like a rather odd excuse for a violent racist attack on a black
man. I'm sure plenty of KKK members got off on 'legal technicalities', but
that doesn't make it right.

~~~
pnw_hazor
Constitutionality does not imply "rightness or goodness".

Criminal procedure (legal rules associated with prosecuting crime) is rooted
in constitutional law.

------
ripley12
> It’s the marriage of Wall Street, real estate capital, and urban planning,
> with politicians—self-described progressives and moderates alike—religiously
> supporting tax giveaways and favorable zoning policies for the for-profit
> developers of real estate.

I don't find this analysis - which ignores the low[1] rate of housing
construction in NYC and the political role of homeowners wrt zoning and
property values - remotely convincing.

[1] [https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/03/26/new-york-is-
sh...](https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/03/26/new-york-is-shrinking/)

~~~
snicker7
Low supply for housing increases prices, which is what landlords and real
estate investors want.

------
noad
It seems like pushing through massive budget cuts and busting up police unions
is the next logical step. I understand this is easier said than done, but the
sooner we get started on actually fighting this fight the easier it will be to
get through.

~~~
MattGaiser
Trying that on teacher unions failed and police are more trusted and more
respected than teachers/schools.

[https://news.gallup.com/poll/274673/nurses-continue-rate-
hig...](https://news.gallup.com/poll/274673/nurses-continue-rate-highest-
honesty-ethics.aspx)

[https://news.gallup.com/poll/236243/military-small-
business-...](https://news.gallup.com/poll/236243/military-small-business-
police-stir-confidence.aspx)

~~~
freshhawk
That isn't a good comparison, police unions have mostly different support
systems and allies than other unions. Police unions are not generally helped
by other unions to put it mildly.

Also, enough public support exists for both sides to try and act so which one
has more "public trust" doesn't matter at all, it's about exerting power now.

------
burger_moon
> Arrests and summonses plummeted in early 2015. This, in labor and political
> parlance, is called a slowdown.

Why doesn't this lead to shrinking budgets and layoffs of police? Aren't they
providing a data backed solution to reducing the cities budget?

~~~
esyir
Isn't this analogous to cutting IT budget when there's no problems?

------
jojobas
The main motif of the article is that the cops had nothing to do with lowering
crime under Giuliani and that their apparent withdrawal after many years of
tough policing didn't cause any resurgence.

I'd say standard of proof is rather low either way.

~~~
atombender
Guiliani's crackdown on crime coincideded with a nationwide drop in crime in
the 1990s, in cities that _didn 't_ implement the same tough "broken window"
policies as NYC.

Between 1991 and 2000, homicide rates fell from 9.8 to about 5.5 per 100k
people, which is a drop of 44%. There were probably multiple overlapping
causes [1], but the most compelling explanation so far is the removal of lead
from gasoline in the 1970/80s [2].

[1] [https://www.vox.com/2015/2/13/8032231/crime-
drop](https://www.vox.com/2015/2/13/8032231/crime-drop)

[2] [https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-
le...](https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-lead-crime-
roundup-for-2018/)

------
mucholove
Why is the head of the police not a sheriff? Someone who is elected?

Better question: Was it ever a sheriff?

Seems like elected sheriff's work well in a local community assuming high
voter participation.

Very high profile position. I'm from the tropics so I understand that
elections can be rigged (see DR 1994). Would love to hear if this worked or
failed in the states.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Why is the head of the police not a sheriff? Someone who is elected?_

Do we have evidence elected sheriffs are more humane than appointed ones?
(Honest question.)

~~~
quinoa
Elected Sheriffs anecdotally seem to be at higher odds of being charged with
corruption and are often focused on politicking rather than policing.

1\. [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/14/us/ana-franklin-
alabama-s...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/14/us/ana-franklin-alabama-
sheriff.html) 2\.
[https://www.postandcourier.com/opinion/commentary/commentary...](https://www.postandcourier.com/opinion/commentary/commentary-
reforms-can-help-stop-sheriff-corruption-in-south-
carolina/article_391cb9e8-630e-11ea-b32f-a3fd8283a39b.html) 3\.
[https://apnews.com/afa9172c457725c92dcb39aca9c85a49](https://apnews.com/afa9172c457725c92dcb39aca9c85a49)

The issue may also be exacerbated if the electorate is actively okay or
willing to ignore the corruption.

I believe the increasing political nature of the position is, in fact, part of
the issue. The influence of politics through Mayors and the Police Unions
makes running a department efficiently and effectively an impossible task if
you want to hold onto your job. A chief of police either spend all of their
time appeasing politicians by implementing their ideas for how to police
effectively or are replaced by someone who will. At the same time they are
receiving constant push-back from the Police Union. Never mind the years of
experience, training, and graduate degree work almost all police chiefs have
endured; they either do what politicians think they should do or are replaced.
If they lose the confidence of the Union the Union will sabotage them and they
will be replaced.

The second major issue, as I see it, is how we select and hire police
officers, which still, almost universally, relies on the polygraph test. The
polygraph is proven pseudoscience, but the actually effectiveness, I suspect,
is irrelevant because the goal is to see if prospective hires can take the
pressure of the test; not to detect dishonesty. You either get perfect
applicants, or those who are okay and comfortable with lying.

There are many more issues, of course: the increasing militarization, some
departments actively rejecting high IQ candidates, low pay and long working
hours for patrol, etc.

~~~
free_rms
To add on a third issue, also anecdotally, there's the nature of duties that
the typical county sheriff finds themselves with.

They're not local police, they're not state police or FBI, their primary job
often winds up being running corrections. Secondary job is detail work on
county property. Actual job is often being a patronage network for their boss,
the sheriff, help him get re-elected and keep your job.

It's actually the worst possible scenario, because we bring in all the
downsides of an elected sheriff with none of the upsides -- they don't work on
any of the things where being elected would add accountability. Hiring
standards are low, they're based on political usefulness, and there's no
downside to the sheriff because who gives a shit about a prisoner being
abused.

It's possible that elected local police chiefs might improve things in a way
that doesn't extrapolate from the way elected sheriffs work.

------
nitwit005
The police union is powerful, but so are several other public sector unions in
the city. I don't see any reason to create a special theory for the police
only. I guarantee you the mayor will defend the teachers union from criticism
as well.

------
runawaybottle
Success has given them a lot of leeway. One cannot deny NYC is a good safe
city. Every borough is safe mostly, other than parts of the Bronx.

------
downerending
Having lived in NYC, I'm amazed at the level of restraint they've been showing
over the last two weeks. They're taking a vicious beating and really pretty
much holding fire. Not sure I agree with that strategy, but you have to
respect their discipline.

Wild horses couldn't get me to do that job.

~~~
InspiredIdiot
[https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-
be...](https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-
benefits.page) [https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-
hi...](https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-hiring.page)

~~~
InspiredIdiot
To clarify, this is in response to "Wild horses couldn't get me to do that
job." It is no mystery. Joining a police force is a powerful tool of upward
mobility in a country (ours) where pretty much all the others have been lost.
I would hope that the people enjoying those advantages (possibly deserved but
evidently rare) would want to preserve them. Sometimes that might result in
the restraint you note. Other times the results might be quite different.

