
Under 'Kenyan Time,' You're Expected To Arrive, Oh, Whenever - arunc
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/12/31/574537270/under-kenyan-time-you-re-expected-to-arrive-oh-whenever
======
PeterStuer
Time is a fickle mistress. The more you watch it, the less of it you seem to
have.

I work with people from many different cultures. The more 'punctual' ones
always seem to ignore the present, and, without seeming to realize the
contradiction, experience it as something that inhibits faster progress in
some planned future realization. People live in a constant mental anguish that
they are 'wasting time' at nearly every moment. By contrast the more 'time-
relaxed' cultures seem less prone to discount the present for the future. If
no-one is 'wasting' their own time, then you can not 'waste' someone else's by
being 'late'.

Now I know there are pros and cons to both extremes, but all to often, in
business, I have observed that we try to abuse 'time-controls' in the idle
hope of solving trust issues. It almost never works, even when it seems to.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _we try to abuse 'time-controls' in the idle hope of solving trust issues_

Trust involves character and competence. Being able to show up on time
demonstrates a competence that is necessary in some industries and some
cultures. I agree that there are people who permanently stress over self-
imposed schedules.

~~~
dogma1138
Being on time shows that you are part of a culture with easy access to
accurate and consistent time tracking devices, and have access to reliable and
predictable methods of transportation, and while not being completely
dependent on it it also greatly benefits from having access to reliable real
time or near real time communication methods.

Punctuality has grately changed over the years as we progressed
technologically.

In the 9th century being on time was quite different than it is today; within
your village on time was within usually an hour or two based on the daytime
cycle if you have a church with a bell you were lucky, to you nearest city it
usually was within a day or a week if you had to visit a someone far far away
being on time might have meant arriving within the same year.

So from my point of view anytime where I was in a place that time seem to not
matter if you looked carefully you would notice why,

People didn’t had watches, those who did often wore them as jewelry / trinkets
often they didn’t work or were not set to the correct time.

With mobile phones this has changes and likely within a decade you’ll also see
cultural changes happening to the perception of time and punctuality.

~~~
solarkraft
Within a decade? You mean we just got time tracking devices? Even in Kenya I
think they had watches for a while.

------
rayiner
You see this in India and Bangladesh too, especially with social events. One
of the funny things is the connection between tardindess and cooking. Serving
a typical western meal is difficult when inviting a bunch of people for dinner
at 8 means people shuffling in from 9-10. But it’s no problem at all with a
typical curry.

------
stareatgoats
Yea I saw this in Tanzania too. Our clockwork machinery society doesn't work
there (yet). I'm not so convinced they have to adapt. Maybe it is us who, in a
post clockwork machinery society need to (re)learn from them ... One insight
that struck me when I was there: this doesn't apply to time only, it is really
related to numbers in general. While we obsess with how long, tall far or wide
things are (in numbers) these things don't seem to matter much to the average
Tanzanian, and they get uneasy having to answer such questions and will give
widely inaccurate answers if pressed. Maybe there is a latent anti-colonial
attitude at heart that inspires this? or something else. It's worthy of a
study nonetheless, as more and more people suffer stress-related problems in
the industrialized world

~~~
caio1982
I was in Tanzania (multiple cities) for a month and honestly I did not
perceive this there, would you have any example of what happened to you there?
Honest question, as I found them very respectful of my time, but perhaps it
had more to do with the relation I had with them (as a tourist, as compared to
actually living there).

~~~
stareatgoats
I could, having lived there for 5 years, but the linked article and other
comments here provide the sufficient documentation don't you think?. I'm not
saying it is a completely ubiquitous and homogeneous trait, and it is probably
more pronounced in rural areas than in cities for example. Implicit in your
question is however an assertion that I object to: that it would be a sign of
disrespect to have a more rubbery notion of time than the one we are used to
in our clockwork societies. I don't think so at all. This notion of 'respect'
may be relevant here in the west, where everyone's life is measured in time,
and everyone knows it to be so. I never felt it to be a sign of disrespect
when the wedding started the day after the day it was supposed to, or when our
guide up Kilimanjaro told us it was maybe five or ten minutes left to the top
when it was in fact two hours. It was simply not so important to them.

------
Havoc
Or as it's more commonly know African time

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_time)

It's also noticeable in say check-out lines and even just walking. They simply
do everything slower. (And that's not me being condescending - I grew up in
Africa). I wonder if it's a factor in the overall economic progress of Africa.

~~~
solarkraft
Same thought. It sure is more relaxed and nicer, but how can you have a well
functioning society this way?

~~~
Havoc
>how can you have a well functioning society this way?

Well enough I suppose.

It's only really noticeable from an outsider perspective. I never noticed that
the cashiers are slow while growing up in Africa. Only after spending a couple
years in Europe could I see the difference.

Anyway if this sort of thing interests you then check out the book below.
Various interesting musings about West vs Africa - and written before a time
when everything had to be so politically correct

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_of_the_Sun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_of_the_Sun)

------
spodek
> _The issue of poor time-keeping is not just a Kenyan problem. It is a
> problem in Ghana and throughout Africa (and of course in many other cultures
> as well)._

Reading Affluence Without Abundance -- [https://www.amazon.com/Affluence-
Without-Abundance-Disappear...](https://www.amazon.com/Affluence-Without-
Abundance-Disappearing-Bushmen/dp/1632865726) \-- about hunting and gathering
cultures in southern Africa, whose cultures endured _200,000_ years, changed
my views on our views on time, law, agriculture, growth, eating meat, and
other things.

From a western perspective, loose time-keeping seems a problem.

A thought-provoking question: can you imagine a culture where such a
perspective on time worked? And worked for orders of magnitude longer than
your culture has existed?

~~~
Oxitendwe
How well did these cultures fare against the imperialist Europeans, exactly?
How well do they fare against their more technologically advanced neighbors?

Incidentally, you may also wish to read "Industrial Society and Its Future" by
former Berkeley mathematics professor Theodore Kaczynski.

~~~
dang
We've banned this account for repeatedly using HN for ideological battle,
which breaks the site guidelines.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
option_greek
Same with happens a lot with IST (indian 'standard' time) :D

~~~
cdubzzz
WAIT (West African International Time) in West Africa. Where I was, at least,
a scheduled time mostly just indicated that the thing scheduled would happen
that day (maybe).

~~~
solarkraft
How does it feel? As a german I can't imagine it.

~~~
cdubzzz
You get used to it with enough time. I spent 3.5 years working in Burkina Faso
and after the first year or so it didn’t bother me at all.

The occasionally annoying thing was that _I_ , as a foreigner, was always
expected to be on time, even when no one else was. I recall once, late in my
time there, arriving to a major community meeting about half an hour after the
appointed time. People who were already there complained about it while we
waited, a good two more hours, for the local officials to arrive so we could
start the meeting. As soon as they rolled in we got the meeting started and no
one said a thing about their arrival time, hah.

------
jondubois
2 hours late is a bit extreme but I personally think that being late by up to
30 minutes is acceptable in most cases. I really don't mind at all if someone
is 20 minutes late and I appreciate being given the same flexibility.

When it comes to real life and you factor in transport delays and other life
factors it's not realistic to expect people to be exactly on time all the
time.

The attitude in the west seems to be that if you arrive late then it's
disrespectful. I feel that expecting me to be exactly on time to non-work
events is even more disrespectful because the stress of trying to make it on
time makes my cortisol levels go up and probably shortens my life expectancy.

~~~
Veen
Doesn't it bother you that when you're late you're wasting other people's time
and causing them stress? If you know you can't commit to being on time, why
agree to it in the first place? Just tell them you'll be there some time
between X and Y.

It might be nice to live on "Kenyan time" but it's not economically or
socially efficient. For me, waiting around for someone is wasted time that I
would otherwise have spent doing something more productive or pleasurable.

EDIT: One of the skills I associate with being a fully functional adult is the
ability to account for traffic problems, their personal life, and so on when
they make plans. Obviously, unforeseen events can't be helped, so I'm not
annoyed with someone who is late once or twice, but if they're persistently
late I'll make a negative judgement about their ability to manage themselves
properly.

~~~
watwut
Why would someone being late on party or other similar socual activity
stressed you? Makes no sense to me. In general, many people tend to stress
over things that should not elicit that much emotional response - nothing is
in danger in this case and no harm is being done.

I agree with the opinion that if you demand much punctuality for non work
events, to the point that you get angry at people being late for evening beer
or party, then you are high maintennance friend.

As for your other questions, if it is generally known that agreement to party
at four means "sometime after four" then it means exactly that. All
participants know people show up after, so they are not bothered.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
> _Why would someone being late on party or other similar socual activity
> stressed you?_

I dunno. Why would making it to something on time stress _you?_

The answer to both is, _it doesn 't matter._ You don't need a detailed
understanding of someone's psychology to understand that doing X stresses them
out and it would be kinder not to do it.

~~~
ufo
> Why would making it to something on time stress you?

If you are doing something before it is time to leave you might need to rush
it to be able to leave on time. Then, after you leave you might get stuck in
traffic or come across another unpredictable thing in which case you get
worried that you might not make it on time.

> understanding of someone's psychology

I think punctuality is more of a cultural construction thing than an
individual one. When I am in my home country I don't think twice if someone is
late by 15 minutes but if I am in one of those super punctual countries I
start worrying that something might be wrong when that happens. There are also
differenct expectations of punctuality depending on the context. If it is a
work related meeting then it is very important to get on time but if it is for
a social activity then less punctuality is expected.

------
tfmatt
Interesting. I really enjoyed the white guy speaking Swahili and his ability
to switch mid-sentence. As a monoglot I am envy those with this ability.
Reminds me of my favorite movie scene of all time, in Inglorious Basterds they
are speaking German in a bar and an accent gives away an undercover spy. Right
before things go south the aggressor and protagonist switch to a very refined
English.

> Lt. Archie Hicox: [In English] Well, if this is it, old boy, I hope you
> don't mind if I go out speaking the King's.

> Major Dieter Hellstrom: [In English] By all means, Captain.

Riveting scene, wish I could find more like it.

~~~
stevoski
Swahili is a language that native English speakers can typically pronounce
well, as it only uses sounds that are present in most English dialects.

It is also easier for native English speakers to learn than most European
languages.

------
BrandoElFollito
We French are not the kings of punctuality. When you have a conference call,
people are often minutes (5-10) late.

I hate it and start my calls sharp, even if there is nobody yet. People who
join late are on their own to catch up and I make exactly zero efforts to
bring them in.

After a few calls almost everyone is there when the call starts.

Some people complained that they cannot switch from one meeting to another
instantly, to what I usually reply that they accepted my meeting and that they
can arrange with the other one (which probably started late) to finish a few
minutes early. I also accommodated them with 5 past the hour starts, which is
probably the easiest solution.

This is to say that there is hope for time keeping.

------
jschwartzi
This is also a thing when doing business in Mexico. I've had to wait up to 2
hours for a teleconference to start. Often in Mexico City the traffic is so
bad that it takes hours to get anywhere. Couple that with a business culture
where meetings take as much time as is needed, and you are frequently left
waiting.

------
ggm
My mother used to tell a joke about a guy who hung around in cairo every 1st
Jan because he'd said he would meet his brother then but forgot to say which
year.

She was born just outside Lesotho (Basutoland as was) and I think the concept
of BMT was pretty widespread in Africa.

------
Waterluvian
The language of the article seems to try and excuse this behaviour a few times
and make it the problem of "clock-obsessed cultures." It almost reads like a
sheepish, "yeah it's messed up but it's not really care big deal!"

~~~
mlevental
what do you mean by excuse? you realize that Kenya is a country on another
continent, not an American state? the culture is completely different. for all
we know being early is the thing that's a cultural taboo and needs to
apologized for.

~~~
usrusr
As long as “the West“ keeps getting blamed for all the hardships in other
parts of the world "the West" has all the reason it needs to point out other
confounding factors.

(And I'm genuinely curious, what role does not being an American state have in
your argument? Is punctuality a federal matter?)

------
henrygrew
This is a problem in multiple cultures and nations not only kenya, and not all
kenyans have this attitude towards time. A majority appreciate the value of
punctuality

------
fapjacks
In Hawaii we call it Hawaiian Time.

------
commenter1
I don't mind waiting, just be prepared to pay for the hours I wait.

------
jstanley
> And why is some white dude in Oregon complaining about Kenyans? (Unclear.)

It's not unclear, it's because he isn't happy about them not keeping time
properly, which is what the entire article is about!

> Punctuality is a sign of respect and goes a long way toward building trust
> and confidence. But must it be forced on the many Kenyans and other Africans
> who still believe in "African time"?

It doesn't need to be forced on anyone, but if they don't want to be
respectful of others' time, or build trust and confidence, it's basically only
themselves they're harming in the long run.

We have some of this in the UK as well. If people say a party starts at 7,
they might actually mean "don't show up until 7.30". Personally I refuse to
play such opaque games, and usually show up exactly at the time specified.

~~~
tinco
It's not just a game. Hosting a party takes some preparation, and preparation
means things can take longer than expected. I sometimes arrive at parties at
the moment they're scheduled to start and never has the host been anything but
welcoming and gracious. But don't mistake, I'll be helping the host finish up
the party decorations, set up the bowls of chips and arrange the beverages for
the first 10-20 minutes.

Arriving to a party early is nonetheless a very good idea. It almost always
means you get to intimately socialize with the host, a chance you might not
get when the party has already started, especially if you're on the shy side
of the spectrum.

Arriving early to parties is one of the tips in Leil Lowndes' "How to talk to
anyone"[1] that I read and can recommend.

1] [https://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Anyone-Success-
Relationships...](https://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Anyone-Success-
Relationships/dp/1511305169)

~~~
sandworm101
Party arrival times are an exercise in social standing. Those higher on the
ladder come later, forcing those lower to wait for them. The ulimate example
is "queen time". She is never on time and countless thousands regularly wait.
The order that the royals arrive to an event signals thier rank. Our version
of this is waiting for the cool people to show up.

------
leyth
I am from this region and have lived in Kenya for a while during childhood.
Most people don’t really care about being punctual as life is pretty easy
there. There is plenty of resource to go around, even with the rampant
corruption. They have this interesting saying that goes:

“haraka haraka haina baraka”

"hurry hurry has no blessing."

All in all, they’re pretty good people, welcoming to all, including racist
Europeans who until today continue to plunder the natural resources of the
whole region.

