
Senic (YC S13) builds a laser distance meter for smartphones - jansen
http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/09/senic-wants-to-revolutionize-measurement-starting-with-a-smartphone-connected-laser-distance-meter/
======
stephengillie
Laser distance meters have been available to contractors for years. The major
difference Senic adds, over Ryobi, Bosch & Fluke, is bluetooth & cloud
syncing.

I have always wondered how these devices actually calculate distances. I have
experimented with Arduino & Parallax, and I've seen how the resolution of an
ultrasonic distance sensor is directly affected by the processor speed -- the
processor is merely counting the fractions of a second between sending the
ping pulse, and receiving its echo. But a 1 MHz processor can only just count
milliseconds. A 16 MHz processor can count only slightly faster. At the room-
temperature speed of sound, this gives you a resolution of about 1/29th of an
inch, or 1/74th of a centimeter.

In theory, the same should be possible with light -- send a light pulse then
count the fractions of a second for it to return. Thinking back to Grace
Hopper's Nanosecond [1], a 1mhz processor would have a resolution of hundreds
of feet. So these must be using a very small, simple, multi-GHz processor to
get a resolution of about 2/15 of an inch.

Unless these devices do their measurement in a completely different way...

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEpsKnWZrJ8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEpsKnWZrJ8)

~~~
Retric
You don't need a full processor for time of flight just a few transistors
which can cheaply operate at ~10GHz. Speed of light / 10ghz = 3cm, but your
talking round trip timings so ~1.5 cm is possible.

Multiple frequency phase-shift or Interferometry allows you to do even better.

~~~
stephengillie
Very good point -- you'd have these fast, expensive transistors (however they
are packaged or not packaged) cache their data, then transfer it back to a
slower, cheaper, main microprocessor, which would be doing the rest of the
device's work.

Do you know where these 10 GHz transistors can be found?

~~~
beambot
Laser rangefinders don't switch the light source at 10GHz. They "chop" the
laser on-off at (say) 10kHz. The measure the difference between the reference
(onboard) and the return using (typically) a PLL that can measure time
differences down to picoseconds (these are usually used in high-frequency RF
equipment). Using a microcontroller counter would be too slow.

Cheaper LRF's can use triangulation with a known baseline. That's how Neato
robotic managed their $10 spinning version for the vacuum:
[http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/12/20/ultra-low-cost-
laser-r...](http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/12/20/ultra-low-cost-laser-
rangefinders-actualized-neato-robotics)

To wit... I like to disassemble laser rangefinders!

[http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/01/04/velodyne-
hdl-64e-laser...](http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/01/04/velodyne-
hdl-64e-laser-rangefinder-lidar-pseudo-disassembled)

[http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/02/14/omron-sti-
optoshield-o...](http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/02/14/omron-sti-optoshield-
os3100-laser-rangefinder-lidar-disassembled)

[http://www.hizook.com/blog/2008/12/15/sick-laser-
rangefinder...](http://www.hizook.com/blog/2008/12/15/sick-laser-rangefinder-
lidar-disassembled)

~~~
stephengillie
Wow, amazing!

------
yan
I'm going to preface this by saying this meter looks great and I realize that
it's much easier to critique than encourage.

Overall, I think it's an interesting implementation, but I felt the tone of
the video did not match the nature of the product. The video feels produced
towards something with more breadth and importance than essentially a
contractor tool. Not that I'm downplaying what Senic built, but the
presentation gives off "toddler in a business suit" aesthetic.

Having said that, the implementation looks great.

~~~
chriskelley
But that's advertising in a nutshell right? They're not using disinformation,
they're simply setting a tone for how they wan't their company to be viewed.
Coca-Cola makes sugar water, Kleenex makes tissue. But you don't push many
units by downplaying your product.

I think the video does a great job of making them seem to take their product
seriously. If enough people walk away with a similar impression, it will allow
the company to expand within the market and be taken seriously in their new
endeavors as well.

~~~
gutnor
Actually that is a weird ads. It seems targeted at 'us', i.e. tech guys
mostly.

Looking at the spec, it seems that this tool has all the necessary bits inside
to compete with Leica tools. Yet the ads is very silent on all that.

IMO I think they neglected the software side when designing their gismo ( by
mistake or by strategy ). Now they hype it up with tech guys, so that one of
us will eventually create a few killer apps for their hardware so they can
compete against Leica.

99$ for a bluetooth enabled, fully featured laser measurer but with a SDK
instead of great interface ? Well I guess it is working, count me in.

~~~
argumentum
I'm biased, as I know the team personally, but they didn't neglect the
software side. A majority of the team are software engineers, and hackability
is very much a part of their design. So definitely, buy one (or more) and make
some killer apps!

------
doctoboggan
I think Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE)[0]is really cool and has the possibility to
enable many many cool devices. The low power requirements allow devices to run
for weeks on a button cell, and the fact that it uses the same hardware as the
original bluetooth implementation mean devices only need software updates to
enable it. The latest iPhones have BLE support, and google added BLE support
in android 4.3[1].

BLE is already used in devices like the Pebble Watch. If you are interested in
hacking with a BLE device, check out the SensorTag[2] from TI. Its a tiny $25
board that contains a whopping six sensors:

* IR temperature Sensor (contactless temperature measurement)

* Humidity Sensor

* Pressure Sensor

* 3-axis Accelerometer

* Gyroscope

* Magnetometer

They also provide example iOS and android source code. You can download the
iOS app in the app store.

[0]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_low_energy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_low_energy)

[1]
[http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/connectivity/bluet...](http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/connectivity/bluetooth-
le.html)

[2] [http://www.ti.com/tool/cc2541dk-sensor](http://www.ti.com/tool/cc2541dk-
sensor)

------
toomuchtodo
Useful product, although I'm dismayed its not a device that can build a point
cloud of the whole room yet (and use said point cloud for rendering on a
mobile device, as well as high-resolution measurements).

Look what tech innovation has done to my expectations of products :(

Room scanning point cloud with Kinect:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhg3_ZgRK68](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhg3_ZgRK68)

Boiler Room Point Cloud:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1l0X46rOAU](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1l0X46rOAU)

Point cloud of living room:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6eRG3Q27Lw](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6eRG3Q27Lw)

~~~
twald
Hey, my name is Toby from Senic. We're focusing on these simple solutions for
the building industry first because they are under really high cost and time
pressure and it help them the most. With our SDK and API, it's a really
flexible product. We're already working on integrating it into different
robots etc for some of the mentioned functions. If you have any good
suggestions, please drop me a line.

~~~
solistice
Is there an email where we can do that? There isn't one in your profile or on
the senic page.

Also your website is being rendered very strangely.

[http://snag.gy/wCkIm.jpg](http://snag.gy/wCkIm.jpg)
[http://snag.gy/2PXRW.jpg](http://snag.gy/2PXRW.jpg)

~~~
twald
Please write me a direct email: support(a)senic.com. I will respond asap.

------
kyro
I love this for two reasons.

First, this is a great example of creating a solution for a small yet annoying
problem people have just come to live with. Second, I really like that they're
creating well-designed tools for a very specific niche of customers. This
isn't a general purpose device for mass consumption, but for architects,
interior designers and the like -- professionals whose industry, like most
other industries, does not get enough attention in the way of high-quality,
well-designed, 'sexy' solutions. There are a ton of opportunities to provide
similar solutions to other markets. Withings, for example, produces a really
well-designed and easy-to-use blood pressure cuff [1].

As for the Senic, I wouldn't get one myself, but my parents, who are
frequently fixing and renovating things around their home and dabble in real
estate, definitely would.

1\.
[http://withings.com/en/bloodpressuremonitor](http://withings.com/en/bloodpressuremonitor)

~~~
doubledub
Agreed. This would be enormously useful for vacation rentals and real estate
professionals. Add on and partnerships with virtual tour companies would be
expansion value.

~~~
solistice
So like [1], for entire rooms?

[1][http://www.trimensional.com/](http://www.trimensional.com/)

~~~
doubledub
Exactly

------
jackowayed
I clicked through the purchase flow and noticed the "SSL secured" text.

But the homepage is not served via SSL. I assume the actual purchase form
submits through SSL, but an active network attacker could change it to submit
anywhere they want, and no one would know.

Everyone makes this mistake, because they think of SSL as being just
encryption. It's encryption, but it's also integrity. If a page has security-
sensitive functionality at all near it, you want integrity, even if the
content is public. (Another example: You have a totally static personal site.
Why would that possibly demand SSL? Well, say you want to post your GPG public
key so people can send you encrypted email. Someone who can intercept mail
bound for you might also be able to MITM your site, so you want SSL to ensure
people actually get your real key.)

Just serve everything over SSL always, and you won't have to think about this.

------
DEinspanjer
This project is interesting, and I preordered one because the last time I had
to transcribe measurements of a room into modeling software, I was quite
frustrated at the time and complexity of the task.

One thing I'm not happy about is that I did not see any information about
software currently in compatibility testing or plans to support specific
software.

I won't be satisfied if the device is delivered and I can't actually use it
for anything other than a simple measurement that my current laser distance
meter can perform.

~~~
twald
Thanks for pre-ordering one of the devices. We come from the measurement
Industry and were struggling with the same problems. We designed Senic to be
the most flexible device it could be. We will give out a few apps for iOS and
Android that relieve the biggest pain for people (mostly in the building
industry) but will keep developing more applications (new apps, integration
into existing software, Linux support etc.) If you have any suggestions or
questions, please write us. We want to learn as much as possible and make it
the best product on the market.

~~~
stephengillie
AutoCAD support would be awesome. I have a couple friends who run their own
stainless steel fabrication & kitchen install business, and getting salesmen
and business owners to give them accurate measurements is a _huge_ pain point
for them.

If a wall shifts 1 inch across 20 feet, they can build for that, if they have
those measurements. But when they are told to make a sink-with-backsplash
square, and there's an ugly gap between it and the wall -- well, reworking
that tiny gap is almost as expensive as building the table itself.

~~~
twald
Awesome. Thanks for the feedback. AutoCAD is in our top 10. A lot of people
want to see this integration for various uses.

~~~
bwilliams18
Also vectorworks for the theatrical crowd!

We're always taking big measurements and bouncing them around to other people,
and measuring weird objects and spaces.

------
hodoublesy
Just preordered three of these for various projects I have in mind/that could
take advantage of this, awesome work! Do you have any idea when more details
on the SDK/API will be available?

~~~
twald
We will publish a SDK/API preview within the next two weeks. If you send me a
quick message to support(a)senic.com, I will make sure you'll be informed.

------
sfall
sounds good but nothing really "new" here leica has similar products
[http://www.leica-geosystems.com/en/Laser-
Distancemeter_5061....](http://www.leica-geosystems.com/en/Laser-
Distancemeter_5061.htm), additionally leica has intergrated with autocad,
excel etc so you can already do more. I don't know any contractors that work
based off sq. footage measurements alone for pricing no matter the type of
work. it also looks like it can't be used without another device

------
sethberg
I know YC typically gives small investments which works well enough for web
startups, but do they give more to hardware companies like Senic that need
things like materials, machines and parts?

~~~
jansen
Nope, all companies receive the same funding (as in base amount + x per
founder up to 3)

~~~
sethberg
I'd love to hear about a hardware team's experience in the YC program. Senic,
how's it going?

~~~
twald
Three months is a really short time for a hardware company which forced us to
postpone sleeping until after Demo Day :) Money wise, it was kind of tough
considering the cost for prototyping, 3d printing, flights from Germany etc.
But I would say it gets you where you need to be if you're resourceful enough.

------
tocomment
It would be cool if it could give you the GPS coordinates of the point your
measuring. That should be easy since the phone already has a GPS and a compass
right?

~~~
twald
yes, that's one of the things that our old customers were missing. Combining
there measurements with geo-location, time, other sensors etc.

------
kevingibbon
Love the idea for the professional.

Is there any way to measure less precisely using the iPhone's camera?
Something about using the gyroscope to get a depth measurement?

~~~
cbhl
More likely you'd use algorithms based on structure from motion, like in the
Kinect. But that's definitely not the target market for these guys.

~~~
kevingibbon
ya of course. Do you have more details? I'm interested myself.

~~~
cbhl
No, but you should be able to find academic papers in standard databases like
EBSCOhost (most major public libraries I've seen have a subscription that you
can access by just getting a library card with proof of residency).

------
davidradcliffe
Looks like the website wasn't totally ready? The partner logos are all the
same, and what does Square have to do with it?

------
Kiro
I thought distance meters were already built in in all smartphones using the
camera's laser.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Camera's don't have lasers (at least in smartphones).

You could use infrared with two cameras to do depth measurement like the
Kinect and the Leap Motion, but I'm unaware of any smartphones currently doing
this.

~~~
Kiro
How does the autofocus work?

~~~
michaelt
1\. Algorithm to evaluate how blurred an image is. 2\. Adjust the focus a
little bit, is it getting less blurred? Keep going. More blurred? Other
direction. 3\. Keep adjusting until you find the point where adjusting either
way means more blur.

~~~
Groxx
1 is pretty often "how much contrast", which is pretty easy to do.

------
hosh
It's the tri-corder!

... or at least, the seed technologies for one.

~~~
hosh
Oh wow, downvoted. I guess you guys lack imagination.

You use one device to connect with a sensor, much like the special secondary
sensors used in the tricorders. Things get uploaded into a larger machine for
processing.

