
HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice” - sexy_seedbox
http://www.jeromecohen.net/jerrys-blog/hong-kongs-extradition-law
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throwaway2048
For all the vaunted talk about how the CCP plans in terms of centuries and how
they are so much more far sighted than western politicians, the continual
abuse of Hong Kong's special status seems extremely short sighted, because it
is going to make peaceful re-unification of Taiwan completely impossible.

~~~
nicolas_t
CCP planned in term of decades and were more far sighted than western
politicians. This changed with the rise of Xi Jing Ping who is a short sighted
petty autocrat but unfortunately extremely good at political maneuvering to
concentrate power in his hands and undoing what little checks were instituted
by Deng Xiaoping.

I had high hopes for China's future back when I lived there but that is no
longer the case with the current government.

~~~
superfx
This strikes me as the quintessential problem with autocracies. Sometimes one
gets extremely efficient governments in the short term, when the autocrat is
competent and not entirely corrupt, but in the long run whatever short term
gains were had are squandered by corruption and greed. Democracy is
inefficient in the short term but efficient in the long run.

~~~
suff
Well said.

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ddffre
Chinese justice just like the justice political prisoners used to received in
the USSR.

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wiggler00m
I asked a Hong Kong lawyer this week about the proposed extradition law. In
particular, of the following, who would it apply to:

a) Chinese nationals; b) HK nationals; c) foreign nationals.

He advised it would apply to all three.

Edit: he also said it's not impossible the bill will be withdrawn.

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188201
Yes, it is true. It is confirmed by pro-China lawyer in HK local newspaper.
The prosecution of Huawei CFO make China targeting foreign nationals in Hong
Kong for revenge.

Moreover, the issue is not only about politics, but also economic. The most
concern is about how China could use this to threaten any person including
foreign nationals in Hong Kong. Have a business disputed with some Chinese
business while in Hong Kong? Then, you could be extradited to China any time
soon. It is not safe to do business in Hong Kong anymore. If this bill is
passed, then it is expected Hong Kong would be completely replaced by
Singapore within some time of period for foreign companies in Hong Kong to
leave.

~~~
hyperpallium
Does China still have enough to gain, to make it worthwhile to destroy such an
incredibly valuable asset?

~~~
188201
I can't really rationalize why China would throw stone on its own feet, but
there are two reasons I could think of.

One reason could be president Xi just can't back off because Xi is like Kim
Jong-un in China. Xi has killed some of his political enemies and throw many
of them to jail. If Xi shows any weakness to his internal enemies, he could
not live long because he is playing too tough. It's like how a mafia boss
works.

Another reason is taking back some US dollar from HK reserve. China is facing
insufficient foreign currency for importing goods for production, or even food
in trade war with US. One example is pork production, which China has large
export in the world, but it relied on corn imported from US, so facing
increased tax harm pork production in China a lot, and added up with African
swine fever, the situation is even worse.

So, how would extradition law help? Basically there are some list of merchant
in the hand of China who leaves China due to business disputed, bankrupt or
any economic related prosecution. In China, they could start the court even
with the absence of suspect. So, the court could proceed anytime and enforce
any punishment without a lawyer to protect the suspect right. Without
extradition law, it doesn't matter if the suspect left China. After the
extradition law is passed, China would extradite those wanted list. And those
wanted list could pay back some foreign currency in exchange.

Though, it is really just sacrificing long term advantage for short term
benefit. Both reasons are really dumb but they can't stop. Chinese using
nationalism to justify the party existence, since the party make China a
strong country. But if it is not, then the party would start falling apart.

~~~
gruez
>Basically there are some list of merchant in the hand of China who leaves
China due to business disputed, bankrupt or any economic related prosecution

With so much news around this bill, surely they would have fled before this
bill was passed?

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NotPaidToPost
Whatever we think of the mainland Chinese justice system, and there is indeed
a lot to be said about it, the current situation is rather strange.

Indeed, it seems quite extraordinary that someone could not be sent from one
territory of the PRC to another one to face trial.

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ksec
It is a feature, not a bug.

Someone has the great insight to foresee what could happen 30 years ago.

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mitfahrener
HK is part of China. How do you send someone from China to China.

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tialaramex
One country. Two systems.

The _system_ in Hong Kong is very different.

It isn't uncommon to have such internal differences. The United Kingdom of
Great Britain and Northern Ireland is likewise a single sovereign entity,
often abbreviated as just "the UK" but for example abortion is _a crime_ in
Northern Ireland, whereas it's offered as a normal part of the NHS on the
mainland. Likewise Scotland has separate laws even though there's no
discernible border, no more than a small street sign saying "You are now
entering Scotland".

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egao1980
How this is worse than US extraditions / kidnapping of foreign nationals
abroad? Never mind Assange there are plenty of people arrested outside of US
and moved to US prison.

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07d046
For every thing the American judicial system does wrong, China does a hundred
things worse. The conviction rate in China is well over 99% (if they want to
find you guilty, they will). You can be detained with no access to a lawyer or
family indefinitely. There is no separation of powers (the legal system isn't
independent of the political system, and the constitution isn't worth
anything). Torture and forced confessions are common. Roughly a million people
are currently being held in concentration camps without any trial.

I know it's popular to be critical of America, and it's good to shine light on
the darkest parts of America, but there is no comparison between it and what
goes on in other parts of the world.

~~~
egao1980
Which countries China has recently invaded and currently wages war against?

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greesil
Tibet.

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egao1980
Recent?

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ElFitz
One could argue it _is_ still occupied

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DocTomoe
Meanwhile, there is that Chinese Huawei Executive who is being held hostage in
Canada as a trading chip in a trade war, waiting for her extradition to the US
on the invented charges of having had traded with Iran (which is completely
legal in China).

If anything, I'd say it is a wonder that China has not started taking US
Americans and Canadians hostage for the crime of being US American and/or
Canadian.

~~~
i_am_nomad
China has done precisely that:

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/16/canadians-
deta...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/16/canadians-detained-in-
china-charged-with-espionage)

~~~
ShorsHammer
Somewhat tangential: Do you think there are no spies operating in China whom
are known to the current government? Why would China choose some random
Westerners over known intel assets while knowing full well the case will
appear so prominently on the world stage? Tourism makes up 10% of their
economy.

Nations tolerate this stuff and are well aware of who is who, it's how it is.
Kicking out a known operative means another unknown will replace them. Better
the enemy you know and such. There's a recent video from the CIA on the
lengths they go to disguise embassy-tasked folk and how they get them out into
the _world_.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JASUsVY5YJ8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JASUsVY5YJ8)

~~~
some_random
They just execute the spies.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-
spie...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-
espionage.html)

~~~
Nasrudith
I thought those were jusr their catspaws and the norm for spying was far more
sociopathically aristocratic - the official spies have if not holding
diplomatic immunity have some sort of official connection.

Executing them is technically legally perscribed but simply not done in
practice - instead being kept for prisoner exchanges.

Their networks of local contacts who do the actual work may not even get the
benefit of a third world kangaroo court trial.

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roywiggins
The handlers usually do have diplomatic cover. The sources don't, they're
local people with access to valuable information. "Catspaws" is not quite
right. The people who got rounded up in China were CIA sources.

