

Tutor reveals the Ivy-admissions madness of rich penthouse parents - erict15
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/how_got_nyc_rich_kids_in_college_KQQVjQ2t4AFmy3UaFkvTDK

======
Amadou
It seems my take away from the article was a lot different from most of you.

What I read was a discussion of how coddling is crippling. That the parents
who were financially capable of insulating their children from pretty much any
sort of failure were actually setting their children up for failure when it
matters most.

It is reasonable to contrast that attitude with the failure-embracing aspect
of startup culture. That here there is no stigma associated with a startup
failing, it is seen as a learning experience. The idea that falling down is
part of the process of learning to run is completely at odds with the attitude
of the parents in the article.

~~~
coldtea
> _What I read was a discussion of how coddling is crippling. That the parents
> who were financially capable of insulating their children from pretty much
> any sort of failure were actually setting their children up for failure when
> it matters most._

With the money and businesses some of those parents got, they aint gonna need
success anyway.

Some might even become Presidents, like their fathers, despite being idiots.

~~~
Amadou
The effect on the country of these people moving into leadership roles may be
extremely destructive.

------
Shenglong
I'm thinking this article is a little exaggerated. I applied to, and got into
an Ivy, but had no sort of preparation at all. I was suspended over 20 times
throughout my schooling, had 0 hours of community service, didn't find out
that the SATs existed until my senior year, and my reference letters were from
no-name teachers. Yes, some of the things described (working at a neuroscience
lab) were true, but they were entirely my initiatives.

More importantly, even at school, I never saw anyone (limited scope, I'm sure)
with this kind of description. All my friends seemed passionate about what
they were interested in, and the majority were from middle-upper class
families.

While I'm sure there are distinct cases of this sort of coddling, I would
caution that this is likely more the exception than the rule.

~~~
cma
Many people at elite schools get phony doctor's notes for unlimited time on
the tests. Colleges are notified when a student had unlimited time, but since
the US News report college rankings don't take it negatively, neither do they
(if they even legally could).

[http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=1787712&page=1](http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=1787712&page=1)

"At the elite Wayland High school outside Boston, the number of students
receiving special accommodations is more than 12 percent, more than six times
the estimated national average of high school students with learning
disabilities.

Wayland guidance counselor Norma Greenberg said that it's not that difficult
for wealthy, well-connected students to get the diagnoses they want."

[http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_exa...](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2006/05/flag_on_the_field.html)

"Most of these students' diagnoses are presumably genuine. But in places like
Greenwich, Conn., and certain zip codes of New York City and Los Angeles, the
percentage of untimed test-taking is said to be close to 50 percent"

~~~
jlgreco
I never really go the appeal of unlimited time on tests, unless you actually
have a diagnosis that requires it. I saw it around me when I was in university
but I am unconvinced that it actually helped any 'normal' student.

I mean, what are you going to do with unlimited time anyway? Sure, _some_
tests are designed to be too long for the allotted time, but most aren't. If
you need more time on a test that is designed for the normal amount of time,
what is going on? Are you deriving formulas that you neglected to memorize?
Possible I suppose, but how many students are clever enough to do that
_correctly_ on a test when needed but don't just know the material in the
first place?

Extra test time as an unfair advantage makes even less sense to me in subjects
other than mathematics and physics. What are you going to do, derive an answer
to _" Who were Dizzy Gillespie's primary influences?"_?

If it wasn't mathematics or physics, I was always fucked if I didn't know the
answer within half a minute or so of reading the question. Even with
mathematics or physics, if I was spending much time at all deriving things, it
was _generally_ a sure sign that I had failed to prepare and was fucked
regardless.

Here is my hypothesis: _Much_ of the elevated diagnosis rates at upper-class
schools reflects the fact that people with more money are more likely to
acquire diagnosis for non-life threatening ailments their children have. The
rest of the elevated diagnosis rates is probably just rich people throwing
money at the wall and seeing what sticks. I doubt it gives them an advantage,
but they have the money so it can't hurt to try.

~~~
dougk16
With unlimited time, you have the opportunity to take little breaks here and
there, even if it just means doodling for a few minutes, and this is a huge
advantage if you leverage it well.

I run into this daily with my work life now as well...bang your head against a
problem for an hour straight, go to the bathroom, come back, and the solution
pops into your head like magic.

Edit: Also, the more time you have between answering a question and rechecking
it, the more objectively you see things, and notice mistakes that you would
miss if you were rushed.

~~~
jlgreco
You and lmkg both allude to stress, which is something I hadn't considered.
Still, if reduced time-based stress is creating accounting for a _significant_
difference, I am almost inclined to say that perhaps that is a legitimate
thing to diagnose and accommodate. I think that is pretty close to the
intended use of 'infinite test time'.

I never had much success with checking my answers before turning in a test,
though I suppose other people very likely do.

~~~
comex
My brother has had some accommodations, such as being allowed to type answers
on a computer, or being able to take the SAT over multiple days, that I think
should just be available to everybody. These exams are supposed to test
knowledge, not handwriting/the ability to write for long periods of time
without getting achy, or the ability to stay focused on a boring test for over
4 hours; nor do those seem all that onerous on schools. Test time falls more
into "onerous", and being able to solve math problems or write quickly can be
important, but if a student does significantly better in general without a
time limit due to stress, it seems somewhat unfortunate to me that they need
to go to a doctor to be accommodated, something which largely depends on their
parents and has something of a stigma...

------
jedmeyers
In Pushkin's "The Captain's Daughter" there is a very nice piece in the very
beginning:

"Матушка была еще мною брюхата, как уже я был записан в Семеновский полк
сержантом, по милости майора гвардии князя В., близкого нашего родственника."

"My mother was still pregnant with me, when I was enrolled as a sergeant in a
Semenovsky Regiment, by the grace of Guards Major Prince V., our close
relative."

------
auctiontheory
I have a friend whose company charges up to $1000/hour [sic] for SAT and other
tutoring. And parents in NYC and SF pay it. And succeed in getting their kids
into Stanford, Harvard, etc.

I have another friend, an accomplished author, who says "I paid for my house
writing term papers" for rich, lazy college students. Not sure which schools.

If you're just trying to make it on your own, it's tough to compete against
all this. Without SAT tutoring or parental money, I earned degrees from two
elite schools, but these days - who knows whether I'd even have got in.

~~~
mhurron
> I have a friend whose company charges up to $1000/hour [sic] for SAT

Not understanding the use of [sic] here.

~~~
kilovoltaire
I think they're using it to mean "this is not a typo".

Sort of unusual use since they're not quoting anything.

~~~
auctiontheory
That's right. Not a typo. Unbelievable but true.

~~~
soperj
sic is "Spelling in Context". (It's actually latin, but that's the mnemonic
for the definition). So unless you're quoting something, it really shouldn't
be used.

~~~
cynwoody
Actually, it's Latin for "thus so", derived from _sic erat scriptem_ , or
"thus was it written". Used by a quoter to assure the reader that errors or
irregulaties in the quote are indeed the fault of the quotee.

------
tokenadult
Shared with me by a Facebook friend who thought a lot about the college
admission process, and then went into industry before finishing his college
degree. Although I enjoyed reading this article, I didn't submit it here
because I usually like Hacker News submissions that tell us more about the
reality of the external world. This article, as smooth-reading as it is, tells
us mostly that the author is in the business of college admission counseling
(serving as advertising for the author's business), and buttresses factual
claims with inherently unverifiable anecdotes. I agree heartily that children
ought to grow up to pursue their own passions rather than gratifying their
parents' egos, but I've seen other submissions here that make that point even
better.

P.S. The article should be submitted with its original title, by the HN
guidelines.

------
herge
I would as much be wont to read the New York Post for any worthwhile
commentary on rich people as, say, read The Atlantic for sports coverage.

~~~
nether
I would never read the Atlantic since they started pandering to the
reddit/HN/internet populist crowd (well, they're banned from reddit). Their
hugely successful "digital-first strategy" to maximize web ad revenue is
covered well by n+1: [http://nplusonemag.com/the-intellectual-situation-
issue-15‎](http://nplusonemag.com/the-intellectual-situation-issue-15‎)

~~~
salemh
Your URL is dead, I believe this is the right one:

[http://nplusonemag.com/the-intellectual-situation-
issue-15](http://nplusonemag.com/the-intellectual-situation-issue-15)

Edit: your URL is missing [http://](http://), for whatever that is worth.

 _Every time a plane flies over New York, we think, “Oh my God — is it another
Atlantic think piece?” We mean, “an Atlantic think piece about women.”_

------
EliRivers
It does seem awfully odd that the very wealthy still, in theory, compete with
ordinary people like this. I wonder how long they will put up with it.

~~~
demallien
Oh quite some time I would expect. The current system actually suits the
wealthy quite nicely - on the surface it seems like it's a fair system
allowing for admissions to be done based on merit. But as the article
indicates, in reality the wealthy can buy a ticket for their children. So the
proles are happy because they think the system is fair, and the rich are happy
because a) they know it's not, b) they know the proles think it is, which
gives them social cover.

~~~
pigscantfly
Yet the article also indicates that even the supposed 'golden tickets' into
the highest tier schools don't guarantee success. Sure, if your family built
the library, they'll probably let you in with mediocre scores, but for the
>99% of students to whom that does not apply, the admissions system works
exactly as advertised. Who really cares that Theodore Legacy IV gets in when
those people comprise <1% of the students? Someone's family needs to subsidize
everyone else's tuition...

------
cjbarber
College admissions processes generally do a great job of selecting the type of
people I hope my children will turn out like (source: I attend Stanford).

How can we get the parents who are paying for services like these
understanding that a much surer chance of seeing their child attend the
university of their (the parents..) dreams involves something much deeper than
paying people to paint a better picture?

I believe that admissions counseling actually has the potential to have a
really positive impact on many kids, if they are given the freedom by parents
to allow these kids to become the type of applicant that colleges actually
desire to admit.

If you are an admissions consultant of the caliber described in this article,
shoot me an email - username@stanford.edu, I'd love to chat about turning this
industry into something that turns candidates into the right people (starting
early enough - age 14 or so), rather than just painting them as such.

~~~
revelation
Thats not a source, thats full disclosure on your bias.

------
rickdale
I was on the border line for the college I got into (subpar grades, mediocre
test scores) and I can say that being good at a sport is what got me in. Whats
funny about it is that the school I went to put almost zero spotlight/emphasis
on sport and the sport I was playing was tennis not football. So all the time
not studying for the SAT, and playing tennis, payed off in my opinion.

------
ybmew
Makes me happy that I wasn't a rich kid coddled my entire life. I wasn't
accepted to the college of my choice. I've come to enjoy hard work and
realizing the pay off, even as I attempt to push myself harder every year at
my own pace.

------
kenster07
The college system will be drastically altered by mooc, for the better. No
more of the circus acts.

------
chadwickthebold
Not really news. Makes one wonder how the heck it could make it to the front
page.

~~~
notacoward
Because HN readers are highly interested in how to game the same system the
same way.

~~~
wnissen
I was more interested in it as a potential failure of our "meritocractic"
educational system to promote those with true potential instead of the right
family connections. Sort of the other end of the spectrum from being born a
black male in Oakland and, pretty much regardless of one's potential, being
consigned to a lower-middle-class life at best. I want the kids who will
invent the next Internet to succeed, regardless of background.

------
tomphoolery
"Her parents were working late, as they always did, and other than the staff,
we were alone in the house."

aaaaaaaaand your daughter's a stripper.

------
gajomi
Wealthy people can be quite interesting and surprising. A very different
perspective on problem solving seen here.

