

Poker People (Matt Maroon) - drm237
http://www.thepokerchronicles.com/archives/000952.html

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dfranke
I think your second hypothesis is the correct one: honest people tend to be
better poker players. The reason for that is that they can handle losing.
People who have a shaky code of ethics tend to equate unfairness with anything
that doesn't benefit them. Every time they lose a hand, they feel like they're
getting cheated. And that would make them get sick of playing pretty quickly.

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doubleplus
I really miss poker too. I never played at the level you did, but I had a
pretty healthy obsession going for a couple years. And the people I "met" were
more on places like 2+2 and the play sites than live, but I see your point
about a latent honesty and honor.

re: "...but not one where they ended up getting stiffed when the stakee went
on to win..." one exception came to mind.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Gold#Winnings_controversy> Yeah, he's an
exceptional douchebag, and he wasn't exactly staked from his rep, but still.
(I just wanted to call him a douchebag again.)

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yters
Matt, by upper percentile in math, where did that place you, i.e. SAT scores,
etc? I'm curious whether I have the math chops. Also, is it entirely math and
logic, or do you also need a good cold reading ability?

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mattmaroon
I had really high math scores (aced it on ACT, close on SAT) but to answer
your question, they're both two sides of the same coin. I'll probably address
it in a post on the poker blog as that's the most common question I get asked
by hackers (less common but still there amongst others).

The short version is that the two are highly interrelated. Math helps you make
the right play given the information you have, reading gives you more
information with which to use math and come up with the right play.

And I mean reading more in terms of reverse engineering someone's range of
holdings from their actions rather than tells. Tells certainly exist, and have
the same effect when you spot one, but they're highly romanticized in movies,
etc. Once you get past the lower limits they become fairly rare.

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yters
Follow ons for your blog post:

How much did you earn in poker in wage terms, i.e. $/h?

How would you rank your mathematical ability compared to most you played with?

Is it possible to quantify the level you can play at based on your
standardized math scores?

Did your group try to maximize the potential payoff:mathematical ability ratio
in your poker game crowds?

Is this something that can be done to a useful extent?

Finally, if success is so mathematically based, why did you say in an earlier
comment that it is so hard to create good poker AI?

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mattmaroon
1) I was relatively lazy because I didn't enjoy the game, but with really hard
work I think I could have done 7 figures a year, or at least close. 2) Most
top players are probably around where I am in math. A few are far beyond
though. 3) I don't think so. A large part of poker is reining in your
emotions. 4) No 5) I doubt it. 6) Like I said, math and reading ability are
two sides of the same coin. Computers can't read people for shit, especially
when there's more than 1 opponent. Even the worst human can do a better job of
it than the best computer.So even though a computer is clearly superior at
math, it will always have to put me on such a wide range of holdings that it
won't help much. They can do a good job at heads up limit hold'em, but the
more players you add to the table, the worse the AI becomes.

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yters
Thanks, my curiosity about the poker world is now satiated.

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vlad
The number one rule of poker is to play with people worse than you are.

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edw519
Your description of "the honor among poker players" reminds me of the diamond
merchants in NYC. Millions of dollars moved around in people's pockets based
on honor only (sometimes not even a handshake i.e. a man and a woman). No one
breaks the honor or they're shunned for life.

Sometimes the same thing with friends and family. I've had bankers try to make
me do yoga on a thimble for a lousy $10K while friends (or even friends of
friends) say, "How much do you want. I'll write you a check. I know you'll do
the right thing."

Funny how far you're reputation will take you. Sometimes, that's all you got.

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mrtron
I think the diamond merchants in NYC is a different situation since it is a
tight-knit community of people that rarely lets insiders in. Most people have
known each other and each others families for years, so its easier to hold
them accountable. Poker is a much more diverse group.

~~~
hollerith
Maybe the number of player's at Matt Maroon's level were smaller than the
number of VC and startup founders, which would tend to explain his
observation.

