
Go Away PayPal - la_pas
http://yellloh.com/posts/go-away-paypal
======
wpietri
I am impressed with PayPal's ability to be aggressively clueless in this
regard.

For at least two years, they have beens sending me "monthly statements". Which
a) don't contain any information, and b) are idiotic, because a monthly
statement is an artifact of a paper-based world, not something that Paypal
needs. There is no way to get off this mailing list, and if you try replying,
it just bounces.

And EVERY TIME I USE PAYPAL they try to get me to sign up for "Bill Me Later
TM". I have to say no each time. I've made something like 200 transactions in
the last 5 years, and after 200 refusals they're still like, "Hey, how about
this new thing called "Bill Me Later TM"!

I'm sure both of these techniques boost some short-term metric, but they
guarantee that when I have another option, I use it. And I'm not alone. The
other day while watching a user test, the subject spontaneously offered a
colorful negative opinion, and said they used PayPal only when there was no
other choice.

Building up user resentment like this means that they are very vulnerable to a
competitor. One day somebody like Square is going to cross the good-enough
threshold and the use-it-when-forced crowd will leave and never, ever return.

~~~
jrochkind1
I agree that paypal's automated communication is bunk, but I don't know if
monthly statements are artifacts of the paper world.

Anything where I have a regular bill due every month, I'm going to appreciate
a monthly statement -- probably an electronic one of some kind. Right?

You know my favorite monthly statement? Every month I get an SMS message from
AT&T "A $XX.yy bill is due. Reply with '1' to pay from credit card ending
NNNN." WOOT! THAT's a monthly statement for the modern world.

But really, any business I have an ongoing relationship with them where i
periodically need to pay them, I'm going to appreciate a monthly update on
what I owe them, sometimes over email. (I'm not going to appreciate a poorly
done marketting brochure for things I don't want disguised as a monthly
statement)

~~~
dfxm12
I think the parent's point is that you can (and should) get your "monthly"
statement anytime you want, for any time period you want, on demand, by going
to <bank>'s website.

Monthly bank statements (which I think the parent is specifically talking
about) are different from monthly bills in that statements don't require you
to take action.

------
linker3000
Like the one I received from British Telecom a few years back that went
something like...

We noticed that in the past you opted not to receive marketing emails from us,
but we're contacting you now to confirm whether this is still the case because
we'd hate to think you're missing out on the following type of offers when you
really wanted to see them...

[Insert unwanted marketing crap here]

~~~
enneff
In Australia they passed legislation to prevent banks from offering
unsolicited credit increases. Now I regularly receive mail saying "We're not
allowed to offer you credit increases unless you ask us to. Do you want to opt
in?" What a joke.

------
casca
TL;DR: OP received marketing email from Paypal and is angry

~~~
wpietri
It goes deeper than that. He's specifically angry at the high bullshit level
in the email, and has some reasonable speculation as to why PayPal is doing
something harmful to their brand.

Marketing isn't synonymous with jerkiness. Google, for example, had a great
touch with marketing for many years. AWS still does. In both cases I mainly
heard from them when they had created something new and probably valuable to
me personally.

Here, though, PayPal isn't sending these emails because they are creating
value for you. They're sending them because they're using you to generate
income. You aren't the customer; you're the veal cow, the foie gras goose.

~~~
3825
Some context I didn't know before:

> The production of foie gras (the liver of a duck or a goose that has been
> specially fattened) involves the controversial force-feeding of birds with
> more food than they would eat in the wild, and more than they would
> voluntarily eat domestically. The feed, usually corn boiled with fat (to
> facilitate ingestion), deposits large amounts of fat in the liver, thereby
> producing the buttery consistency sought by some gastronomes.

Animal welfare controversy aside, I would imagine this suggests they are
prematurely exploiting their user base in a non-sustainable manner. If only
the customers (I assume the shareholders are their customers?) would care that
this tarnishes the brand in the long run.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras_controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras_controversy)

~~~
wpietri
Sure, and I think customers care. This customer clearly cared.

But suppose some customers don't currently care about you doing something
manipulative or exploitative to them. Is that a sign you should keep going?

I say no. That not everybody has yet wised up to your exploitation isn't a
sign that you're safe. The fundamental basis of commerce is a positive-sum
creation of value for both parties. Whenever a company drifts away from that,
they're skating on thin ice, and they will eventually fall in.

------
edandersen
It's not clear in the article - is PayPal gaming the "Important Inbox" feature
of Gmail by making fake important-reading "Balance Summaries"?

~~~
josteink
What a shock!

When Gmail introduced a feature to reduce spam and spam-like email in your
Inbox, the people sending that spam will adapt and try to game it. More news
at eleven.

Did anyone seriously believe this would be a viable long term solution?

~~~
wpietri
The shock expressed isn't about Gmail; it's Paypal. Bottom-feeding behavior
from Viagra spammers is expected. But from valuable tech brands it's a sign of
dangerous rot.

------
imurray
I closed my paypal account last week due to receiving "transaction summary
alerts" when I had no transactions. It seemed the only way to unsubscribe was
to not be alerted of any real transactions.

Spammy behaviour -> lost customer. If enough people walk with their feet,
their analytics should quickly give them the message.

------
Pxtl
Between all the phishing and the spam, I filter out all email from PayPal.
Realistically they might send me something important someday and I'll miss it,
and that's unfortunate... but I was developing such a habit of ignoring
paypal-related emails anyways that automating the ignoring changes nothing.

------
frytaz
Today fucking paypal suspended our account because there was 2500 euros income
from one of our clients...

------
kintamanimatt
Two and a half options:

1\. Click the unsubscribe link

2\. Click the spam button

2.5. Sue them if they're breaking any local anti-spam laws. It's quite obvious
that the spirit of the email wasn't to deliver account information if it was
otherwise laden with promotional content. Chances are any judge or magistrate
would look right through the account update BS to see the true nature of the
content.

~~~
ataggart
Violence is not an appropriate response. The first two are sufficient.

~~~
kintamanimatt
I'm not sure what you mean. Suing someone isn't an act of violence.

~~~
ataggart
What do you imagine the state uses to compel obedience to its laws, if not
threats of violence? Sometimes that violence might be appropriate, but some
firm sending you an unwanted email falls short of the mark.

~~~
kintamanimatt
Australia doesn't use crowbars or fists to remedy wrongdoings, therefore it's
not an act of violence. If the punishment for sending bulk unsolicited
commercial mail were canings, it'd be violence, but this isn't how civilized
countries operate.

~~~
ataggart
Of course it uses violence; try declining the "non-violent" penalties. Even
criminals don't immediately resort to physical violence, but you still know
precisely why you should hand over your wallet.

~~~
kintamanimatt
Show me an instance where a modern Australian court has ordered corporal
punishment and I'll agree with you.

~~~
jes
With respect, I think attagart has a valid point.

Violence can also be confining someone to a jail cell, or confiscating (taking
without voluntary consent) some or all of their property (e.g., imposing a
fine on a person)

Your modern Australian courts must do this, to compel compliance with their
decisions.

~~~
wpietri
Not really.

If you lose a lawsuit and fail to pay, then they just come and take your money
and/or your possessions. If you attack the sheriff's deputies carting off your
stuff, or assault the bank manager for having given away "your" money, then
yeah, you are in for a world of hurt.

------
macbig273
Well, the only mails I get from paypal are the ones confirming my transactions
... Never got any ads

~~~
kalleboo
Same here. I must have unsubscribed.

------
exo_duz
I never realised this was their marketing tools. I was wondering why they were
normally sent at totally random times.

Time to unsubscribe / put to spam folder methinks.

------
vonskippy
So is this really just another rant about PayPal - which would be hardly
unique or unusual.

Or....

Is this just a ploy to get yet another stupid social media site some
visibility traction on HN?

Hmmmmmmm?

------
Lewton
I got something similar. Had to triple check that it was actually from Paypal
because it was so clearly spam

------
frogpelt
PayPal has figured out how to fool the new Gmail inbox. Others will follow
suit.

------
Ashuu
Going through HN effect.

------
blumkvist
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://yellloh.com/posts/go-
away-paypal)

~~~
NKCSS
Even the google cache doesn't load here.

~~~
petercooper
Click on the "Plain text version". Google's cache has a really bizarre flaw
where it still loads certain assets from the original site and if they block
the rendering, things still don't appear.

~~~
yellloh
hey guys, our servers are being pounded like a punching bag. dust is
everywhere, fighting through the dust to press green button on larger servers.
eyes hurt.. talk soon..

------
asimove
Didn't know anyone could try this hard to get a post on HN.

~~~
kintamanimatt
You could have said anything. Why this?

