
Germany planning to ‘massively′ limit privacy rights - walterbell
http://www.dw.com/en/germany-planning-to-massively-limit-privacy-rights/a-36529692
======
schoen
The right of Germans to access data about themselves (which this proposal
would apparently weaken) is what Malte Spitz used to get his cell phone
location data from Deutsche Telekom in 2011, leading to this pretty striking
visualization:

[http://www.zeit.de/digital/datenschutz/2011-03/data-
protecti...](http://www.zeit.de/digital/datenschutz/2011-03/data-protection-
malte-spitz)

In that way, it's been useful for making concerns about what others know (and
can deduce) about us more concrete and specific.

~~~
bogomipz
This is fascinating, thanks for posting this link. A quick question = why is
Flensburg relevant in the this quote/lyric reference:

"The seminal electronic band Kraftwerk was well ahead of the curve musically,
but even the lyrics to their 1981 song "Computerwelt" can seem uncannily
prescient. "Interpol and Deutsche Bank, FBI and Scotland Yard, Flensburg and
the BKA, they’ve got all our data squirreled away."

Flensburg is just a northern city no?

~~~
halfdan
It is also where the "Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt" is located and keeps track of
driving offences. We have a system where for some driving offences (speeding,
running over a red light, using a mobile phone while driving) you, in addition
to a fine, get penalty points. Accumulating a certain amount of points within
a 2 year period may cost you your driver's license. In German this is referred
to as "Punkte in Flensburg" (lit. points in Flensburg).

~~~
bogomipz
Ah neat, thanks, it is amazing how prescient that Kraftwerk line is.

I am curious what was the general public response to the Malte Spitz's
visualization?

------
camillomiller
Good luck with that. I'm still hopeful. If there's a country where people
would be genuinely putting up barricades over privacy issues, that's Germany.
My vision might be a bit biased by the fact that I live in Berlin, where
people are much more politically active then elsewhere in Germany, but I still
think that it's a theme that strikes the average German's interest

~~~
binarray2000
> If there's a country where people would be genuinely putting up barricades
> over privacy issues, that's Germany.

Really, why would you think that?

Because of Stasi? That was quarter a century ago. Almost forgotten. Ask
representative sample of Germans what was Stasi and, I strongly assume, most
wouldn't know anything about it. Especially the younger generation. Sadly.

Or because of Nazi time? Despite Hitler (and Hitler-related) documentaries
being constantly shown in German TV, most Germans are still not aware of the
methods being used by the Nazis to keep _Germans_ under surveillance during
that time. Sadly.

And, if lots of people do go out and do demonstrate/voice their discontent?

In October 2015 250,000 people demonstrated in Berlin against TTIP (for US
friends: EU-USA TPP) [1] and what did "das Merkel" do? Nothing, it's TTIP full
steam ahead!

Then 1.6 million Germans (together with 3.3 million EU citizens in total)
signed a petition against TTIP. Government spokeperson: "Merkel will not
receive a petition". [2]

Recently, "over 300,000" people have demonstrated against TTIP and CETA (for
US friends: EU-Canada TPP) and what was the reaction of the Government? "It's
their right to demonstrate". [3]

Has anything changed in the policy of the German government after all these
democratic means? I think you can answer this question yourself.

This system we live in doesn't work. It probably never did, but we didn't
notice it.

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/10/berlin-anti-
tt...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/10/berlin-anti-ttip-trade-
deal-rally-hundreds-thousands-protesters)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQykeaSC3Dk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQykeaSC3Dk)

[3]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOEWkH8RpgM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOEWkH8RpgM)

~~~
y16b61dlqkw
Indeed German politicians have been consistently ignoring their voters'
mandate for the last two decades:

The SPD (originally the worker's party) has destroyed the welfare state, the
CDU (center right) lets in millions of refugees, and the Green party
(originally anti war) goes to war.

It will be interesting what happens in the next federal elections. In the
Berlin state elections the "ultra right" AfD had 12%.

The reason is of course that they also represent positions that originally
were part of regular conservative agenda.

After the state elections Merkel suddenly started to (pretended to?) listen to
some voter concerns.

Apparently in Germany politicians only react if protest parties approach 20%
results.

~~~
binarray2000
What do you think, why is that so?

\- Why have social-democrats dismantled the social state?

\- Why have center-right let over 1.5 million refugees in?

\- Why does the Green party go to war?

\- Why does the German political establishment pretend to listen with AfD
breathing down their necks?

\- Why don't they care about the voice of the people even thou they talk about
"the people being querulous of democracy" (Demokratieverdrossenheit) in
numerous political talk shows for the last twenty years?

\- What's next after limiting privacy rights?

\- Does all this happen just by chance?

~~~
tdkl
When money talks, bullshit walks.

------
themattbook
I have the political and business acumen of a wooden plank, so forgive the
elementary question, but what would the German government or businesses have
to benefit from the massive limitations? The way I read it, it seems Germany
wants to restrict one's right to privacy... and that's it. Why?

~~~
gkafkg8y8
From what I've heard, Germany has some very strong privacy laws. It keeps them
from being able to use products that many others around the world can use. And
I'm not talking about social media- it affects basic things like timekeeping
software. And German workers expect that level of privacy; they don't think
it's excessive.

While I'm all for privacy, when much of the rest of the world isn't like that,
it makes it significantly harder to do business with other countries.

But, I actually think it wouldn't be a terrible thing if strict laws on
privacy were enacted worldwide, as long as they had more benefit to people
than annoyance and didn't significantly restrict personal freedom. There is
too much data right now.

On the other hand, I'm tired of signing HIPAA forms, and the bureaucracy
around it. I just wish that the legal system was more common sense. Maybe an
amendment to the U.S. Constitution something to the effect of "Information
about a citizen shall not be collected and stored against the will of the
citizen." Then get rid of HIPAA, etc. and just let the citizen take businesses
to court if they find that the business was responsible for out-of-control
personal data collection. But, I'm sure there are valid reasons to get
specific.

~~~
matt4077
> I just wish that the legal system was more common sense.

I doubt that it's possible. Law is a bit complicated for a reason: it tries to
be as specific, and as general, as possible. It abhors ambiguity, or
unintended consequences.

Example:

> "Information about a citizen shall not be collected and stored against the
> will of the citizen."

Sounds great – and it's pretty much the law in Germany. But – as a business –
how do you prove the citizen has agreed to you storing their information?
Yeah: a form, or a EU cookie banner -> and we're back at square one.

~~~
datenwolf
> … how do you prove the citizen has agreed to you storing their information?

By having participated in an actual business transaction, which usually leaves
an (electronic) paper trail.

Take note that simply visiting a website can not be interpreted as a business
transaction. If anything this is accounted for as browsing the displays of a
street vendor.

------
Propen
What the hell is going on around the world? I can't believe this sh*t. Why are
we putting up with this?!

The state of surveillance we are headed towards is getting more and more
ridiculous each day.

~~~
noir_lord
> What the hell is going on around the world?

The end stages of capitalism in which automation is about to make many of the
proles redundant _and_ make them realise it.

Lots of people are going to wake up one day and realise that all the wealth
ended up in the hands of a few and they got the shit end of the stick despite
the only difference been who had the capital at the start of it.

They are getting a head start on that eventuality even if they haven't
expressly realised it themselves.

Governments are always frightened of the people because they know what the
people might do if they found out everything the governments do.

------
UhUhUhUh
Which will result in people digging deeper underground and in more tools being
developed to allow that. I think this will also results in safe-heavens
developing here and there around the world, just as the Dutch republic was for
printing/publishing in the XVII/XVIIIth century. And immensely profited, on
all levels, from it.

------
edem
First UK now Germany? What is happening? Why do people let this slide?

~~~
edblarney
Right wing concerns over recent acts of Islamic terror.

Leftwing concerns over gains of right wing populists, and citizens publishing
things on social media which could potentially be described as 'hate speech'.

Both tough issues.

------
droopyEyelids
Does anyone know how the legal mechanics would work?

Can they pass the draft law that overturns the earlier laws?

I assume that the state legislature will have a say. Is there any indication
they're amenable to it?

How does the American style thing where they reintroduce unpopular bills with
subtle modifications continually until the public loses focus work in
Deustchland?

~~~
glasz
it works exactly like that. law by brute force. that's basically how we've got
data retention laws and how the BND "reform" happened.

the government proposes laws, the bundestag approves of it and the
bundespresident signs it. the bundestag is, at times, critical of things but i
would have to look up an example. the bundespräsident has forever been a
sheep. can't remember anybody doing anything out of order. they get "thrown
out" as soon as they even only say sth critical of the political mainstream -
see mr. wulf.

anything can happen anytime if they get their ppl in line. opposition is
hilarious and bold and simple at most. some say it doesn't even exist. i mean,
we have a government constructed of a coalition of opposing forces, the CDU
and the SPD, and they're marching the same march. depressing.

anybody telling you some other text book alternative theory is just
delusional. there's nothing really better at least with regards to privacy or
data protection. it's a laughabke myth spread by the german industry trying to
draw profits from snowden. again, depressing.

edit: i forgot one entity viewed by many as one last bastion against unjust
laws: our highest court, the bundesverfassungsgericht, the constitutional
court. it's regarded very highly so let me demonstrate how those judges work.
case in point, data retention law (vorratsdatenspeicherung)

    
    
      court: "you'd like to save data for 12 months? that's too much."
      gov: "ok, 6 months."
      court: "that's better. agreed."
      bundespräsident: signs law

~~~
DasIch
It's rare but presidents to occasionally not sign laws or defer it to the
constitutional court. Horst Köhler famously did this with the law that was
supposed to allow the Luftwaffe to shoot down civilian airplanes in case of a
9/11 scenario. The court of course ruled against the law.

------
edblarney
This is really odd because Germans are really skittish about this - more so
than any other Western nation.

The Stasi is in living memory for millions of them.

------
sandworm101
>>> ...to checking that the technical prerequisites are in place to ensure
that doctors' and lawyers' files are secure...

Forget the privacy issues. That a government is inspecting the safeguards of
lawyers is something to applaud. I;m on a bunch of ABA committees that
constantly discuss the ridiculous state of security at most law firms. Most US
states require that lawyers,in short, "try". So long as some modicum of effort
is put into securing client secrets the average law firm won't hear anything
from their bar associations.

(Yes, I said most! Most firms are actually very small, without the budget even
for a full-time IT person.)

------
soufron
I don't really see how they could achieve such a bad result given that German
Law is subject to the Privacy Protection Directive and to the newly adopted
Privacy Protection Regulation. And both are strongly in favor of the users,
including their right to access, modify or suppress any information about
them.

------
rahrahrah
Does anyone have any insight into what the motivation is for politicians to
push this? Why are they so passionate about limiting people's privacy?

Surely you don't believe that this is about "fighting terrorism", right?

------
Create
From the adoption of printing by Europeans in the 15th century we began to be
concerned primarily with access to printed material.

The right to read, and the right to publish were the central subject of our
struggle for freedom of thought for most of the last half millennium.

The basic concern was for the right to read in private and to think and speak
and act on the basis of a free and uncensored will.

The primary antagonist for freedom of thought in the beginning of our struggle
was the Universal Catholic Church.

An institution directed at the control of thought in the European world, based
around weekly surveillance of the conduct and thoughts of every human being.
Based around the censorship of all reading material and in the end based upon
the ability to predict and to punish unorthodox thought.

The tools available for thought control in early modern Europe were poor. Even
by 20th’s century standards but they worked. And for hundreds of years, the
struggle primarily centered around that increasingly important first mass
manufactured article in Western culture: "the book" Whether you could print
them, posses them, trafficking them read them, teach from them without the
permission or control of an entity empowered to punish thought.

By the end of the 17th century censorship of written material in Europe had
begun to break down first in the Netherlands then in the UK then afterwards in
waves throughout the European world.

And the book became an article of subversive commerce and began eating away at
the control of thought.

By the end of the 19th century, that struggle for the freedom of reading had
begun to attack the substance of Christianity itself and European world
trembled on the brink of the first great revolution of the mind it spoke of
"liberté égalité fraternité" but actually it meant freedom to think
differently.

The "Ancien Régime" begun to struggle against thinking and we moved into the
next phase of the struggle for freedom of thought which presumed the
possibility of unorthodox thinking and revolutionary acting.

And for 200 years we struggled with the consequences of those changes.

That was then and this is now. [...]

Everything we want everything we hope everything we’d like everything we wish
we new about is in the search box and they own it.

We are reported everywhere all the time

In the 20th century you had to build Lubianca you had to torture people you
had to threaten people you had to press people to inform on their friends I
don’t need to talk about that in Berlin

[https://benjamin.sonntag.fr/Moglen-at-Re-Publica-Freedom-
of-...](https://benjamin.sonntag.fr/Moglen-at-Re-Publica-Freedom-of-thought-
requires-free-media)

~~~
Create
Dear Downvoter,

I'm not sure whether it requires more concentration, but it may very well be
that like you know, some people read well and it's nothing for them to read a
book a day. And other people this is a big deal. I mean it's a struggle, and
what's likely is going on is that most people never learn to read very well.
And so, the amount of concentration they have to put into the mechanics is
what's defeats them with the amount of material that has to be read.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13041287](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13041287)

------
ne01
Very interesting! I'm wondering if it's possible to use these effects to
modify images on the client side before uploading it to the server?

