
Cafe owners are pulling the plug on WiFi - walterbell
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/small-business/sb-managing/we-dont-want-to-be-an-office-cafe-owners-are-pulling-the-plug-on-wifi/article34859828/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&
======
aclimatt
I think that's a fair choice for a number of reasons. The problem is, the need
for an external workspace still isn't going away. This is a /huge/ market
opportunity, and anybody who has gone to Workshop Cafe in San Francisco knows
it. (Just try to find a seat there during business hours; it's impossible.)

The problem with the coffee shop is that the value they provide and their
financial model are not aligned. Coffee shops make money by selling coffee.
Workers go to coffee shops for the workspace, location, and ambiance of not
working from home. Yes, people also go to coffee shops to buy coffee, but I'm
not talking about those people. There is a class of person (freelancers,
artists, even people just taking the day off from their normal office) who
want a non-lonely place to work around people.

The only business I've seen who "gets it" is Workshop Cafe -- a coffee shop
that makes its money by selling the workspace, not the coffee (but yes they do
also serve coffee). They have power outlets at every seat, incredible Wi-Fi,
and charge $2 / hour (at least last time I was there) for a seat, and even
have phone booths for calls.

There should be a Workshop Cafe in every major city on Earth. There's already
a WeWork for the more permanent class of co-working; why is there not a
"coffee shop" that focuses its business catering toward laptop hobos, and
actually provides amenities for that use -- no more scrounging for power
outlets, crappy Wi-Fi, nowhere to take a call, et cetera. Workshop Cafe in SF
will even deliver food from local restaurants to your table!

Then, finally, we will have two types of businesses for these two completely
separate use cases: coffee shop-style drop-in co-working spaces, for people
who want to get work done in a productive environment, and coffee shops. For
you know, people who just want to drink a cup of coffee.

~~~
pkaye
I think initially when a coffee shop starts out they want those who stick
around for a long time in order to show they are a busy place and attract more
customers. But once they grow to be busy enough they longer care about those
customers who stick around for a long time.

Also how would the economics of a Workshop Cafe work? How much would the
hourly cost be to get a table?

~~~
agibsonccc
They've been growing with their current model ($2/hr/seat). I was in SF
recently (used to live there, don't anymore..) but whenever I am in town I go
there even when having a nice office to go to. Granted - I don't know all of
their economics but they definitely charge a bit for food but I find the
atmosphere great enough to pay for that.

~~~
marak830
I wonder how well that would work here in Japan. You don't see as many people
working on laptops in a coffee shop here, but you do see an awful lot of
English teaching and students studying

~~~
agibsonccc
Being based in tokyo...I see that a lot at various starbucks. I don't know
where you frequent but I see a _ton_ of people working on laptops in cafes.

Granted, there are folks who do the "talk to your friend" thing but I don't
see much of a difference between SF and Tokyo in that respect.

I usually see this in the more typical local chains like Doutour, Pronto, and
even excelsior (despite them usually lacking outlets) as well.

~~~
marak830
I'm in Totsuka near Yokohama, it's not a very tech area.

~~~
agibsonccc
Yeah that makes sense then.

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arkadiyt
I've started having a coffee first and then working at my local public library
- more outlets, more seating, more quiet, and faster wifi.

~~~
smudgymcscmudge
I don't know why this never occurred to me before now. I drive by a public
library every time I go to a coffee shop or coworking space to work.

~~~
simplehuman
Biggest issue with libraries that you cannot hear people talking. This might
be a good or a bad thing depending on you. I really like working from coffee
shops especially because of the noise (and random eavesdropping).

~~~
smudgymcscmudge
That's the biggest reason I don't like working at coffee shops. I almost
always work from home, but sometimes I realize I haven't left the house in
days and need a change of scenery.

------
noblethrasher
Use your public library; the staff actually want you to be there.

Credit to 'tptacek for originally reminding me of that fact:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758722](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758722)

~~~
dingaling
> Use your public library; the staff actually want you to be there.

Unfortunately for a public library more footfall doesn't equal more revenue.
In fact it can increase running costs, which results in opening hours like my
local library:

Mon: 13:00 - 20:00

Tue: 10:00 - 17:00

Wed: 10:00 - 17:00

Thu: 10:00 - 17:00

Fri: 10:00 - 16:00

Sat: 10:00 - 16:00

Sun: Closed

And that's regardless of the lack of amenities: my library has one table and
no toilets.

~~~
jogjayr
> Unfortunately for a public library more footfall doesn't equal more revenue

That seems...backward. It would seem that with more footfall and circulation,
the library should be able to justify a larger budget from the city. And
unless the city is struggling financially, they should get it. Are there some
other issues also?

~~~
sand500
I agree. Libraries are adapting to the modern times and needs.

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boulos
Four Barrel in San Francisco did this explicitly at their founding (no outlets
either). Unfortunately, the rise of tethering and incredible battery life
means it's completely defeated and you often see every table occupied with a
person on a laptop.

~~~
easilyBored
I wonder if people would get the message if a "xx minute maximum time" not was
posted. If one person does that, the store can absorb it, but not if 50% do.
That $2 they made on the coffee doesn't go far enough.

Or have a section with mini-cubicles, like they have internet access by the
minute in third world countries.

~~~
boulos
Disturbingly, the cafeteria in my _office_ has this problem. Despite signs
saying "please don't camp here during service hours", you often find a person
happily taking up a booth for four or table for six with their laptop.

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nikanj
Coffee is practically free. Staff is somewhat expensive. Rent is extremely
expensive. The rental rate for fully furnished ~25 square feet (table, chair,
some personal space) is higher that two lattes per day.

~~~
jMyles
> Coffee is practically free

I ran a cafe for three years (the slashRoot tech collective in New Paltz -
maybe some NYC folk here came there?), and the cost of coffee (and milk) for
us was non-negligible.

We were paying $8/pound for one locally roasted variety; $9 for another.

We also served entirely local or organic milk.

Our rent was $1950 plus utilities.

High-end coffee joints pay a fair bit for ingredients.

~~~
blackguardx
I never saw your place when I hung out in New Paltz (almost every weekend in
2009-2010), but it would have been cool to see a tech scene get established. I
miss that city.

~~~
jMyles
Yeah, New Paltz is a really special place.

We were open from 2010-2012.

------
kuon
Social side aside, what is the point, isn't 4g everywhere these days?

~~~
swsieber
It is (or seems like it)... but it'd be pretty expensive to be tethered all
day, every day.

~~~
tmnvix
$2/day ($0 if I don't use it on a particular day) for me in Australia
(unlimited data but limited to 3g). Unfortunately, I don't think this plan is
available anymore.

About to head to NZ and not looking forward to giving up this ideal (for me)
prepaid plan.

~~~
Mandatum
As someone who moved from NZ to AU.. Oooh you're going to feel the hurt. You
can still get 90GB/mo 3G plans in AU for $80/mo which I'm super happy with.
Comparatively in NZ I paid $30/mo for 3GB.

The only thing I do I miss is NZ's speeds (in AKL/WEL at least). 4G there is
usually 10x faster than what I get in Melbourne CBD.

~~~
voltagex_
Wow. I get 110+ megabits in Melbourne and 10+ in Canberra.

------
WatchDog
Well I guess it depends on how valuable your seating is. If you are in a dense
area or your cafe is particularly busy, than having people sit around all day
and only order a couple of drinks is costing you money. If the seating never
fills up, then it is probably worth while, I feel that people are more likely
to enter a store that already has customers in it than one without any.

~~~
kobeya
If the seating never fills up then you're paying too much in rent.

~~~
m_mueller
Not necessarily, depends on the rent. However, there may be better things to
do with the space. Take a look at Japan and their highly successful 7-11s.
Don't confuse them with 7-11s in the US, they are quite a different league.
Basically it's a question of "how many goods and services that cover people's
everyday needs can I put per square meter". Banking, post office, travel
agency, adapters, amenities, underwear, ready made food, food to be cooked,
drinks, alcohol, movies, holiday gifts, nowadays even seating - it's all
there, even in the smallest ones measuring 20m2.

Now, they have a similar problem to WiFi: People coming in and reading Manga
or the occasional Soft porn magazine without buying anything. Why even sell
that stuff - hardly anyone buys is anymore nowadays is my guess. However, they
studied the effects and found that it's still worth it to have them there in
the grad scheme of things: It reduces theft significantly, because robbers
typically won't go in when the place isn't deserted. They then even started
offering free parking spaces for taxi drivers so they can rest there, which
again curbed theft.

In a cafe, there's even more reason why you want tables to be occupied even if
people don't spend money: An almost full coffee shop with a handful of tables
free is more attractive to potential customers than an empty one.

So yea, it really depends on the property - in very frequented city centers on
the first floor WiFi doesn't make sense. But even there, have a look what
Japan does on third or fourth floors and up - Net/Manga/Theme cafes where you
pay per hour, offering infinite entertainment, computers, fast internet,
sleeping compartments and even showers.

I often wonder what makes Japanese so much more innovative in those areas
compared to Westerners, but I think it has to do with Japan having a
comparatively very deregulated zoning and licensing system for these sorts of
venues.

------
SwiftySwan
"By not offering WiFi, they're hoping to create more of a community atmosphere
where people talk to each other instead of silently typing on their
computers."

I see as many singles as pairs or groups at coffee shops. It's not always a
social exercise for people.

If the habit is going to a coffee shop solo, they may swap books for
computers, or just tether. Can't ban everything.

------
zachkatz
Here's an idea: For the big enough coffee shops, how about a WiFi section and
a WiFi-free section? Like smoking sections back in the day.

~~~
smudgymcscmudge
The problem with smoking sections was the smoke would waft over to the non-
smoking area. You'll have the same problem with wifi.

~~~
detaro
Call it "laptop-section" and "no-laptop-section" and enforce that? (since it
seems to be the goal in the end anyways) I've been to places like that and it
works.

~~~
var_eps
When I was in Berlin last winter, I noticed a few coffee shops that had strict
no-laptop policies at the front but often allowed laptops in back rooms or
further away from the entrance. Seemed like a win-win.

------
markwaldron
Charging for wifi by the hour would be a good alternative. Give 30 minutes
free with every coffee purchase, possibly dependent on price of beverage. The
outlying issues are other open wifi spots that are close to the shop and
people tethering their phones and just using the cafe for a spot to do work.
Both of those will happen even if they "pull the plug".

~~~
jackvalentine
Their purpose isn't to stop people mooching their wifi though. Their purpose
is to have a totally different atmosphere by discouraging people from using
their cafe as an office.

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bichiliad
This is actually something I'm super conscious about. I travel to visit my
parents somewhat often, and I work a few days remotely when I do. I've had a
bit of luck rotating through a few spots. If I feel like I've exhausted those,
I'll post up in a larger chain like a Starbucks — I feel somewhat less guilty
when I know I'm not taking up a seat in a locally owned business. Most places
will pull decaf espresso shots or have pastries of some sort, so I'm not just
drinking coffee all day.

Aside: If anyone wants to swap coffee shop recommendations in Pittsburgh, feel
free to send me a message.

~~~
Markoff
why not just find place which is not busy? no need to feel bad about being
there occupying some spot if half of the cafe is empty anyway all day

~~~
bichiliad
It's partly because those can be hard to find (less so now that a lot of the
campuses nearby are wrapping up their semesters), but it's mostly me being
overly self-conscious. I don't really want to be known as that guy who posts
up on his laptop all day, but I should probably get over that.

------
glangdale
I've always daydreamed about a cafe big enough to have two viable areas: one
quiet and businesslike, where working on laptops is OK, and one buzzy and
social, where working on laptops is forbidden. The idea that somehow it's
completely wrong to do business in a cafe would come as a surprise to the
coffeehouses that ultimately turned into Lloyd's of London and the London
Stock Exchange, to name a couple.

In my daydream, there is somehow a way to make people pay for the space they
are taking up, too. Perhaps what I'm thinking of is a co-working space with a
cafe next door?

~~~
arthurfm
> I'm thinking of is a co-working space with a cafe next door?

The Dock and Dock St Café & Bar in London is exactly this.

[1] [http://www.thedocklondon.com/](http://www.thedocklondon.com/)

[2] [http://www.thedocklondon.com/the-dock-club-affiliate-
members...](http://www.thedocklondon.com/the-dock-club-affiliate-membership/)

[3] [https://officesnapshots.com/2015/12/03/dock-london-
coworking...](https://officesnapshots.com/2015/12/03/dock-london-coworking-
offices/)

[4] [https://hubblehq.com/office-space/1313/the-
dock](https://hubblehq.com/office-space/1313/the-dock)

------
danso
I don't know if this is a trend. The major coffee shop in my small college
hometown has mandated for as long as I can remember that the seating upfront
be used for only conversation or newspaper-reading. In New York, it seems
about as common to find coffee shops without WiFi and with it. Think Coffee
only has it in some of their locations. In fact, I believe the Think Coffee in
which the first scene of "Mr. Robot's" first episode was shot (12st, East
Village) does not have wi-fi, in contrast to its fictional portrayal.

~~~
thesmallestcat
Think still has a problem with people (especially students) camping out with
laptops. It seems impossible to get a seat even if you're patient.

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sargun
I'd happily pay $20/hr for a seat. That's what, 3 lattes in SF? I just
literally can't drink that much coffee.

If you gave me an alternative way to pay for it, I'd be more than happy to
oblige.

~~~
marklyon
In SF? Check out [http://www.workshopcafe.com/](http://www.workshopcafe.com/).
Cheaper than you proposed, and designed to allow you to pay for the space.

~~~
jacquesc
Workshop is amazing. I hope they're making money (they seem packed most days).
Wish more locations would open.

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mmahemoff
Bad trend for international travellers subject to data roaming fees that still
cost dollars per megabyte (megabyte not gigabyte because it's 1995 once you
cross a border).

~~~
ericd
PSA: Google Fi works transparently in almost every country (Tahiti/French
Polynesia is the only exception I've experienced so far), and charges the same
$10/gig everywhere I've been. If you travel a lot, it's a godsend. Also
apparently gets around the great firewall in China, so I usually tethered even
when wifi was available. Wonderful service overall, I highly recommend it.

~~~
mmahemoff
Fi is a nice option for for US residents. Beyond the roaming benefit, I don't
think it achieves much in most of Europe and Asia anyway. That, combined with
the history of Google Voice, means I don't see Fi going global anytime soon.)

I have Three in UK and it does have decent free internet roaming in a lot of
countries. The roaming is slow with not a hope of streaming media, but seems
to have certain types of content like maps and mail whitelisted for fast
access. It's useful but still requires getting a local sim for anything
serious.

------
nickthemagicman
This is a legit issue. In L.A. here you see it all over. Like 1 in 4
coffeeshops has removed plugs and wifi. It's especially pertinent here because
homeless people will buy a coffee for a couple bucks and stay all day on their
phone or cheap tablet just watching movies and surfing the web.

It's like what's the contract between the purchaser and the business owner. If
I bought a coffee for 2 bucks am I entitled to take up a table all day?

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chiefalchemist
There's a need in the market, but we don't want to meet it." This is a perfect
example of why small businesses stay small, if they last that long.

p.s. In the 90s, before ecomm and digital (music) hit, I had a music+clothing
B&M store. If I had that store today it would have tables/desks, host events,
etc. That's where thing are headed...

------
downrightmike
Joke's on them, I bring a book.

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zw123456
I think the wireless carriers may have just won, with 4G unlimited plans, who
needs in-secure wide open wifi. Over the years in tech, I look for certain
inflection points, and I think this could be one. Only time will tell, but it
has that look to it for me.

------
Overtonwindow
I agree with this. I've worked countless hours in cafes abusing the free wifi,
and I completely understand their position. If cafes shut off their wifi then
this will hopefully spur working spaces to open up.

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ajeet_dhaliwal
If there's a market good luck to them. I won't be a customer though.

------
tmaly
I have cultivated a good relationship with the owner of my local coffee spot.
I work on a laptop there after work when its not busy. I have been a daily
customer there since they opened in 2012.

------
codemates
Oh. This problem is not strang for me. Thats is why I am working on
Codemates.io. The first location we plan to open in Sacramento, CA. And move
further.

------
Overtonwindow
Also: Rather than get rid of the wifi why not remove power outlets? That will
make most people leave after a couple of hours.

------
ralmidani
Why not a rule that says you must order something every 20 minutes or so? This
expectation is not uncommon in Arab cafes.

~~~
aerovistae
If you read the article this has nothing to do with their reasons for not
offering wifi.

------
vorotato
Clearly advertise it and I'll have no problem.

------
vacri
> _While he says most people understand, "we still piss people off."_

No great loss. Those kinds of people are self-entitled bad customers. Let
someone else cater to them.

------
jessriedel
One day, in a distant utopian future, a journalist writing an article like
this will actually have to get, you know, _data_ showing that anything is
changing, and "I interviewed a few people" won't cut it.

~~~
nickthemagicman
This is a legit issue. In L.A. here you see it all over. Like 1 in 4
coffeeshops has removed plugs and wifi. It's especially pertinent here because
homeless people will buy a coffee for a couple bucks and stay all day on their
phone or cheap tablet just watching movies and surfing the web.

~~~
jessriedel
> Like 1 in 4 coffeeshops has removed plugs and wifi.

I'd say this was true for in Toronto and NYC for most of the past decade. How
do we know anything is changing?

------
LouisSayers
Maybe they just need to change their business model...

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
It sounds like they did change their business model to attract more of the
clientele they want and less of what they don't.

I'm not sure what you're actually trying to imply.

~~~
LouisSayers
I'm implying that if a business situated in a certain location is attracting
people because of WiFi, then maybe there's something in it.

You can see it as a problem, or you could also see it as a potential
opportunity.

