
How we made a $25,000 website for $3,000 - hurricane
http://thomvest.com/blog.html?fb_15675306_anch=15766449
======
rewind
I have a big problem with this because it takes advantage of people who need
the money, otherwise they wouldn't be participating in this kind of contest.
It's one thing if you have ten participants and you pay the winner the
equivalent of 10x the value of one site. But that's not happening here. If
there are ten sites worth of work being done, only one site worth of pay is
being spent.

Let's make a comparison:

Let's say a day's worth of yard work is worth $100. Ten home owners in a
neighborhood need yard work done. They get ten unemployed people to each do
the work on their homes. These people really need the money. At the end of the
day, the person who does the best job gets the $100, and the rest get nothing.
Ten houses worth of yard work has been done, but only one day's worth of pay
is given out.

Yeah, you can get away with it, but it's because you're taking advantage of
people. Just because you can ask for it and just because you'll find people to
do it doesn't make it right.

~~~
jkkramer
Most of the complaints I hear about crowdsourced design services come from
people who don't participate in them (just for the record, I don't either). It
seems kind of presumptuous to say the designers are desperate and being taken
advantage of. Maybe the long-term value is worth it for them (e.g., winning
10% of contests)? Maybe they find it a fun way to build experience?

~~~
ultrasaurus
It's easy to forget about revisions, it's not unusual for a simple project to
go through 3 iterations and several meetings -- all of which sap up time.

In a healthy crowdsourcing process, failed bids aren't all that different from
thrown out iterations and dead-end meetings (in the long term).

~~~
lwhi
They are different - because some companies are left with the task of only
creating iterations (for which there's no payment)

~~~
ultrasaurus
Hence the "healthy" part (I agree with the general tone of the comments that
this instance seems a little less than healthy).

In general (like an average 99designs user) a long term process where you win
10% of the bids can be entirely fine. Especially if the trade off is towards
spending more time designing and less time in meetings.

(Worth noting too, many designers submit slight variations of the same design
to multiple contests)

------
tbgvi
Not sure where to even start on this one. Spec work sucks, it wastes
designer's time and the end product often doesn't turn out great because they
have an incentive to spend as little time as possible.

But I have to say, this is even worse. Looking at point #4, they actively went
out and tried to get as many designers as possible to do free work for them.
From their post:

"The response rate was staggering, with around 85% responding and almost an
equal amount actually submitting designs. The most time effective way to do
this is to download an auto-text completer which allows you to save a message
and quickly populate any document with it by selecting a shortcut."

Congratulations, you just figured out how to minimize your time spent while
maximizing the hours wasted by the 'losing' designers. Or, in their own
words... "For a minimal amount you are able to tap the creative abilities and
talents of a multitude of people across the world. Why pay one designer 10
times more for a product you may not like?"

Edit: Not looking to get into a back in forth here, so I would recommend this
to anyone who thinks design contests are a good idea: <http://www.no-
spec.com/faq>

~~~
jharrison
Whose fault is it if a designer chooses to engage in a contest and they end up
spending their time in a losing effort?

We all have to compete but rather than disparage a business owner for being a
good steward of their money could you instead present a valid argument for
using a designer as opposed to a contest? Some good reasons why a designer,
that might hypothetically cost 10x more than a contest, would be better money
spent in the long run, would offer a lot of value to this conversation. I feel
like the last quote in your post is valid. Why would someone want to pay a lot
and possibly get nothing for it? Is that not a waste of the business owner's
time and money?

I'm not trolling. As a business owner on a limited budget and with clients in
the same boat, I'm genuinely interested in the answer.

~~~
justinph
A good designer would treat it as an actual design project rather than merely
a "make it pretty" project. A good designer would step back and examine the
actual business and functional problems and evaluate ways in which design
could solve them. They'd work with the client to translate those problems and
solutions into a visual and functional design.

Rather, in this project, it sounds like this Andrew.Tweed (the OP) attempted
to solve all those problems himself, and then went shopping (shadily, I would
say) for a photoshop monkey to solve his only issue, the "make pretty" part.

One of the other things you get working with a real designer is an actual
relationship. When you need some collateral designed or work on a new project
done, a designer that knows you and your business is invaluable. I wouldn't
say it's impossible to find with some guy over the internet you paid $3000 to
make your website, but I'd say it's less likely.

This may have been effective from a narrow viewpoint, but a real design
process it was not.

~~~
horatioplink
The part that's so frustrating is that thomvest (and lots of other companies)
is in the business of creating relationships and yet they don't understand how
having a relationship with a designer/agency will benefit them.

~~~
lwhi
I completely agree.

If a company treats the people involved in its business relationships as
cheap, expendable commodities - the company is not going to shine.

~~~
reneherse
And it's an investor/partner/employer to avoid

------
horatioplink
I think the problem with this whole notion is that you didn't get a $25,000
website. The results look like something that could have been bought off of
themeforest.net for $50 and installed in under an hour. Nothing wrong with
that at all but let's not go conflating things.

And just to be clear, there are many amazing freelancers or small agencies out
there that deal in the sub $5k price range that would provide the same level
of service discussed in the blog post. Hell, as a small investment firm it
should be obvious that there's room for both big and small and everything in
between in any industry.

------
swombat
That's a pretty shady approach for a VC firm. Do they deal with startups in
this way too?

~~~
jkkramer
In what way, specifically, is it shady? Is using a crowdsourced design service
inherently shady?

~~~
rhizome
A nice word like "crowdsource" doesn't eliminate the exploitive aspects of
this technique.

------
matthiaswh
Spec work controversy aside, they make a statement at the end I find ironic:

    
    
      The one big drawback is that it is a time-consuming endeavor, and to manage a good contest takes a decent amount of planning and focus.
    

I've worked through redesigns with many clients, and the time they spent on
running this contest is on the low end. Plus, they did more work than they
really needed to by emailing contributors and coding it themselves. If they
want to take the easy way out (crowdsourcing) then they may as well go all the
way.

Managing a "good contest" takes anything but a decent amount of planning and
focus, and is not time consuming.

~~~
_trogdor
How could it ever be? In order to run a really top-notch contest, they would
have to spend a lot of time and effort on each part of it, including the
design. And how will they find somebody to design their contest for them?

------
DavidPP
The article is informative, but I don't find this approach really "ethical".

~~~
astrodust
I'd second that. It's not about saving $22K, it's about getting people to give
things away and devalue themselves as professionals.

~~~
jimboyoungblood
No, actually it's about saving $22K.

~~~
reneherse
Actually no it isn't because he got exactly what he paid for: A template-like
design and a mess of code worth $2K-3K tops.

Instead of saving $22K what he actually did was waste time running an ego-
stoking circus for two weeks.

~~~
rhizome
Maybe this story would be better framed as "how to convince people that your
$2K redesign is really worth $25K." I mean, if the guy is the CEO and this
took two weeks, $22K "savings" over two weeks works out to about $500K/yr,
which is probably near the value an average CxO sees in themselves.

------
farlington
Looks like a cookie cutter template.

Why not just use a premium wordpress theme, or the like? Get your '$25,000'
website for closer to $100.

~~~
farlington
To back up my somewhat inflammatory comment, I'd like to add that a quick
perusal of sites like <http://www.freepsd.com/> or
<http://www.elegantthemes.com/> will back up the contention that it looks like
a template you could get anywhere much more cheaply.

I'd bet that the crowdspring designer either based their work on a template
from a site like this, or developed templates of their own that they reuse on
project after project. It's the most efficient way to do spec work. It's what
the business model rewards. Anyone doing time consuming original or creative
work burns out quickly after investing hours in work they were never paid for.

Browsing websites like 99designs or crowdSPRING, it seems like all you see are
three column layouts with slideshow. The most standout aspect of this one is
that it's not blue. But since most of the clients on crowdsourcing websites
seem to want the same design as everyone else, this model seems to work for
all parties involved.

The only losers are the clients, who are overpaying for templates they could
procure more cheaply elsewhere.

------
JoelSutherland
Woah, hold on. Their website is not worth $25,000. They would have gotten a
bad deal if they paid $10k for it.

If they would have put the same amount of time finding a competent agency they
may have ended up with a better site for at little as $5-6k.

------
matthewlyle
Inline styles, tables, 344 validation errors, no meta descriptions and 88
objects (coming in at 800kb/page) loading. 25,000?

Also why is the blog homepage a single post?

------
GertG
Still trying to make up my mind about crowd sourcing, but I like to compare it
to the well-established practice of architecture contests. That system also
gets criticism for forcing architects to do a lot of work without a guarantee
of being paid anything, but nevertheless it is broadly accepted: big-name
bureaus participate in them too. The reason why it works, imo, is because the
potential reward is much bigger. They might spend weeks preparing an entry,
but in case of a win it's usual to have months or years worth of paid work. In
my eyes, for web design/software crowd sourcing to gain the credibility needed
to attract more than starters looking for a foot in the door, it will need the
same effort/reward ratio. For example, you design a specific part of the
future website in detail, and the winner gets to redesign the whole site. That
way, the client still has the benefit of getting more than well-written
intentions in a project proposal, and the contestants know that the potential
reward is bigger than being paid for what he has already done.

------
gexla
Eh, all is fair in war and business. They didn't break any laws, so let's
throw fair and ethical out the window.

First off, who is to say this site is a 25K site? Web developer rates are all
over the map, you can pretty much pull any number out of your ass in declaring
how much your site could have cost to build. I bet I could have found someone
who would have charged 50K. ;)

This site was done in only three weeks. That includes the time taken to figure
out all this stuff and gather submissions. They also essentially took the
design and coded the site themselves, that's going to take a chunk out of the
cost. This site wasn't very complex to take that long.

So, you did a lot of the work yourself. That's going to take a big chunk out
of the cost. A lot of people aren't willing to do this. Some people just want
to deal with one person who is a professional in this industry. People doing
work for free aren't industry professionals, they are doing this on the side
(or they are bored.)

So... why did it cost you so much then? I bet I could have done it for $1500,
but not for someone else. ;)

------
hyperbovine
Would anyone care to explain the prevalence of comments from designers
complaining about "spec work"? I had never heard this term applied in a
derogatory manner before. Is the idea that because you are an "artist" you are
somehow exempt from the economics of competitive pricing?

~~~
lwhi
It's not about competitive pricing - it's about working for free.

Spec work involves doing a unit of bespoke work for a company, for the
_chance_ of payment. It's not fair - and there aren't many industries which
operate this way. I totally abhor the concept.

~~~
hyperbovine
I'm guessing many of the designers on those sites are from developing
countries, where even the chance of landing a $3000 contract would mean a
great deal to themselves and their families. So yes, it is competition:
somebody is willing to do the same work for less.

I can see how this rankles the establishment, to which I say, Welcome to the
21st century. You don't get a free pass any more simply because you live in
the first world.

~~~
lwhi
This isn't creating some brave new world - levelling the playing field for all
.. if you believe that you're quite simply bonkers :)

The injustice isn't that some people are being paid less - _it's that some
people aren't being paid at all_.

On top of this there's one person, or company, who is wholly benefiting from
the situation, while another takes a cut of the proceeds.

Logically, the system works because some people are willing to work for free.
It's rotten.

~~~
hyperbovine
This is what I was getting at in my original post: why do so many people feel
the need to render a moral judgement on the behalf of others? If it's rotten,
don't participate. Everyone using those sites does so of their own free will.

~~~
rhizome
For the same reason you've been replying in this thread: it concerns you.
Similarly, if you don't like peoples' comments here, why refer to them or
reply to them at all? Just ignore them. See how anti-social your line of logic
is?

~~~
hyperbovine
Last post on this and I'm finished. Read the comments I was originally
referring to. They are not of the "This threatens my way of life and my stream
of income, and I'm concerned about it" variety. I would have no problem with
that.

Rather, they uniformly denounce the whole practice as immoral and wrong. They
disguise their own self-interest as a moral argument. Why? Because admitting
that's its their own asses they are looking out for immediately begs the
question, isn't that what all these spec designers are doing as well?

At which point the argument is shot, unless you happen to believe that by some
preordained right certain people should be allowed to pursue happiness and
wealth, while others should not. Now /that/ is anti-social.

~~~
lwhi
I don't think crowdsourcing is allowing many people to pursue happiness and
wealth.

Well .. unless you include the company operating the service :)

------
checker
I was aware of crowdsourcing design, but I like how the article outlined each
step of their process. Looking forward to the next one about figuring out the
message to convey with a site's design.

------
reneherse
Two words: "View Source"

~~~
domgblackwell
I second that. Good front-end coding, just like good graphic design is a real
skill not a cheap commodity. I don't see who has gained from this exercise
except as an example of how not to get your website made.

------
Charuru
Can any designers here give us a clue on how much it would've taken them to
make a design of about that quality? Naturally if you work no spec it's going
to be better... but approximately?

~~~
rhizome
We can't judge because we don't know the inputs. We don't know what the site
looked like before and we don't know what the requirements were, what the
company asked for. You can't extrapolate from a finished product.

