
Turkey is sliding into dictatorship - sukruh
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21720590-recep-tayyip-erdogan-carrying-out-harshest-crackdown-decades-west-must-not-abandon
======
bpodgursky
I've read the Economist for a long time, and they should be ashamed of
themselves for not calling out how wrong they were when Erdogan was first
elected.

Their line was that the AK's "moderate Islamism" would be good for democracy
long-term, and anyone who was afraid of political Islam was regressive.

Yeah, sometimes editors and opinion pieces are wrong. But admit it when you
are -- I haven't seen the Economist staff learn anything from this sad
episode.

~~~
enraged_camel
Back when he was first elected in 2004, Erdogan was not the huge asshole that
he is today. His party actually conducted a lot of useful reforms that were
beneficial for the country.

Over time though he slid into authoritarianism, and started jailing or exiling
people who disagreed with him. Some people believe this was him showing his
true colors, while others think it's a combination of his narcissism and
severe paranoia getting the better of him.

Don't get me wrong: Turkey was never the pinnacle of freedom and the fair
treatment of minorities. But, for people who care about liberal democracy and
the separation of religion and state, things are inarguably in a much worse
shape today than they were a decade ago.

~~~
hackuser
> Back when he was first elected in 2004, Erdogan was not the huge asshole
> that he is today. His party actually conducted a lot of useful reforms that
> were beneficial for the country. / Over time though he slid into
> authoritarianism

That is the standard practice of authoritarians. Rarely do they announce
before being elected, 'if you elect me, I'm going to do away with democracy
and become a dictator'. First they get elected, then consolidate power
(including by governing in a way that builds political support), and then they
seize power.

The fact that he behaved in the way the parent describes doesn't mean he
didn't plan to seize power as an authoritarian dictator (and it doesn't mean
that he did). If the future authoritarians were easily identified ahead of
time, they wouldn't have much chance of advancing their plans.

~~~
true_religion
Because they're not easily identified no one should feel like they have to
apologise for not guessing their nature.

~~~
grappler
If the same thing (god forbid) should happen with Trump, it will be pretty
hard to claim that he wasn't showing authoritarian colors in his 2016
campaign. He definitely was.

------
TillE
The only thing about this which surprises me is how Erdogan seemed to really
want Turkey to become a member of the EU, and yet has been actively doing
everything he can to make that impossible.

Then again, he tends to say and do a lot of odd things, so I guess the simple
answer is to not assume any kind of competence or rational thinking from
political leaders.

~~~
jrez22
Erdogan used EU to get rid of the military check on Islamist trying to
dismantle democracy. Eu is stupid. Every modern Turk warned them and no one
listened. No the EU will reap what its sown.

~~~
aanm1988
> Erdogan used EU to get rid of the military check

How did the EU do that?

~~~
sampo
> How did the EU do that?

 _“Since 1999, civilian control of the military has been strengthened. The
constitutional and legal framework has been amended to clarify the position of
the armed forces versus the civilian authorities,” the European Union said in
its 2004 Progress Report on Turkey, which cited various developments with
regard to civil-military ties. “A number of changes have been introduced over
the last year to strengthen civilian control of the military with a view to
aligning it with practice in EU member states.”_

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil%E2%80%93military_relatio...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil%E2%80%93military_relations_during_the_Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan_government)

It is kind of funny that EU being so afraid of the military occasionally
taking control of the civil government, EU paved way for the much more
sinister threat of a transition to dictatorship. Very shortsighted.

Europeans like to blame America for meddling with foreign countries without
any understanding of the consequences, but here EU did exactly the same.

------
treehau5
This is even more reason to contribute to activists trying to stop the
conversion of Hagia Sophia into a Mosque. It is a piece of 6th century history
that we as a civilization just cannot afford to lose.

~~~
tptacek
Yes, definitely a good reason to re-litigate historical events from 1451.

~~~
treehau5
Considering the Greeks were not liberated from the Ottoman yoke until 1829,
with genocides and killings from "modern" Turkey not stopping until the early
1910's, I'd say it's not exactly ancient history, either.

To put it into context, "Greek Independence Day" comes _after_ American
Independence Day.

~~~
return0
Turkification as a general policy continues to this day and probably will
continue. I don't see how it 's related to Ayia Sofia though, when the temple
was built people still called themselves roman.

------
gkya
So saddening the amount of ignorance and hate I see here in HN regarding my
country. I wish nothing about Turkey gets submitted again here so that I can
continue to visit HN as a hackers' and tech entrepreneurs' forum.

You clearly don't know anything about our history. You don't even know who we
are. You insult us with your superficial readings of superficial wikipedia
articles. We don't need this at all.

We're having hard times, but I still have hope. After all, civilisation was
invented here. I wish we were able to export the better parts too.

~~~
mediaman
Complaining that others don't know as much as an expert (you) isn't going to
help change anyone's perspective. Most people's perspective about most
subjects is superficial. The same can be said for you: you know very little
about most people in most countries.

If you want perspective changed, tell people what's wrong, or the real story,
without hating on the people who could benefit from your expertise. Then your
audience will know more. I think most people here would appreciate hearing
your perspective (with much deeper knowledge of culture and history) on the
current events.

~~~
gkya
I don't really hate anybody. I don't believe in nations at all, if this means
something to you. If it was misjudgements to be refuted, I'd go for it, even
though I'm kind-of short on time. But it's mostly prejudice and hate-for-the-
sake-of-it. I know that's rowing againt the flow, it's tiresome and gets you
nowhere. (Edit: my actual point is that while I do know that there are many
here that would actually appreciate my insights, as I'm a rather neutral and
realist insider, knowing what the bulk of the responses I'll receive in return
of such effort will be like, I just can't convince me to do that. Maybe I'm
not modest enough to try and explain the reality in the face of belittling
dismissals and ostinated misunderstandings.)

------
acchow

      The West must not abandon Turkey
    

Huh? So are we supposed to meddle in other countries' politics and government?
Or are we not?

~~~
kislakiruben
Aren't we already doing this? Or are you being sarcastic?

~~~
acchow
My point was we get so much flak for doing this.

But then sometimes we're "supposed" to do it? Which is it?

------
c3534l
The problem is the vote has likely already been counted and any voting is just
for an aura of legitimacy.

~~~
gkya
We take votes very serious here and there are multiple NGOs that are on top of
things all around the country. I've once worked with CHP on an election day at
a local office and can say that it's nearly impossible to do tricks in any
elections.

------
rdmsr
All you need for constitutional reform is a 50% majority on a referendum. That
seems way too easy.

~~~
untog
A timely warning to the US, too - as more and more Senate votes are being
decided by 50% majority rather than their traditional 2/3 (EDIT: sorry, 3/5).
That both parties indulge in it should be worrying to everyone.

~~~
int_19h
With Senate, the simple 50% majority is by design. That's consistent with most
other bicameral parliaments out there, which also vote on a simple majority
basis. Since the issues they can vote on are restricted by the Constitution,
it's not really a big deal. The big deal is amending the Constitution itself,
which is extremely difficult (if anything, probably more difficult than it
should be).

~~~
hackuser
> Since the issues they can vote on are restricted by the Constitution, it's
> not really a big deal.

I don't agree. The U.S. Senate is very powerful; those restrictions aren't
very broad.

> the simple 50% majority is by design

It depends what you mean. The filibuster, which requires 60% majority, has
been part of the Senate since around the 1840s; clearly many generations of
Senators thought it was important and intended that it continue.

~~~
int_19h
The filibuster was always removable by a simple majority, though, so it was a
self-applied restriction, not an external one. Which limited its efficiency
greatly - anyone relying on filibuster knew that if they pushed too hard, it
would go away.

~~~
hackuser
> The filibuster was ...

It is ... it's still there, just not for confirmations of appointments by the
executive branch.

------
gefh
Sliding? More like rushing full throttle. Ataturk would be disgusted.

~~~
upquark
What makes reddit and now HN think Ataturk was some sort of beacon of
democracy?

> In January 1920, Mustafa Kemal advanced his troops into Marash where the
> Battle of Marash ensued against the French Armenian Legion. The battle
> resulted in a Turkish victory alongside the massacres of 5,000–12,000
> Armenians spelling the end of the remaining Armenian population in the
> region.

He finished off the Cilician Armenians from Anatolia, whoever was left under
French protection and had escaped the Genocide.

~~~
jrez22
It was war not genocide

~~~
muse900
It was a pure genocide!

~~~
jrez22
also THE ARMENIAN ALLEGATİONS AND FACTS

~~~
dalys
Which funnily enough returns this as the first result
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_denial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_denial)

------
peregrix1
Yeah, Turkey is sliding into dictatorship but Egypt is doing very well.

[http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21709955-belatedly-
and...](http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21709955-belatedly-and-under-
pressure-abdel-fattah-al-sisi-has-done-some-hard-necessary-things-two)

[http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-
africa/2170997...](http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-
africa/21709971-abdel-fattah-al-sisis-reforms-will-make-him-unpopular-can-he-
stand-it-sense-and)

Erdogan was "moderate" when "Western Democracies" was able to call a coup a
coup and Syria wasn't a testing bed for weapons.

It looks they need a smokescreen for the blunder in Europe, Syria and ME in
general and with his figure Erdo-guy is the best candidate. Oh "The Sultan",
"The Barbar Turk is at the gates", "figthing with the poor Kurds", "journalist
jailer", "coup was a theater" etc.

Did you really learn anything from the article about what changes in the
constitution and what doesn't? According to the narrative Turkey was a
"dictatorship" a year ago too, is a close "Yes" (or "No") in a referendum a
typical political behavior of dictatorial politics, right?

Sorry. When the West reacts like this (and doesn't react to real dictators
unless they piss to their lawn), it more and more looks like Western
intellectual's main mission is to create a narrative to open a path for
exploitation/military politics. God may have died but "Deus Vult" still lives.

------
nomercy400
Now I wonder, what will the NATO do when Turkey becomes a dictatorship.

~~~
pmyteh
Almost certainly nothing. NATO has had plenty of dictatorships as members,
including Turkey during its various military takeovers.

------
bobosha
sliding?

------
soared
This website is disgusting. I have to close four dialog boxes and the content
takes is ~30% of my screen. I expected better from the economist.

~~~
return0
"Let's make everything fixed, it will look SO good on small displays"

