
France offers each cyclist €50 for bike repairs once lockdown ends - leonagano
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/france-offers-each-cyclist-e50-for-bike-repairs-once-lockdown-ends-455140
======
jamil7
People in this thread are getting really hung up on the idea that someone with
a bike == cycling enthusiast. In Europe a huge amount of people just own a
bike. Often some beaten up thing they probably paid €30-200 for at a flea
market or bike shop and use to commute or meet friends. Maybe it's fallen into
a state where it's unrideable. The €50 is just a simple nudge for all those
people to get it roadworthy so they can start using it again or sell it to
somebody who will use it.

~~~
NicoJuicy
> Often some beaten up thing they probably paid €30-200 for at a flea market
> or bike shop

In Belgium, Belgian people buy mostly new ones in the range of 500-1000.
People who don't earn much or students, buy the cheap/used bikes you
mentioned.

Electrical bikes are > 2000 € and pretty popular.

In general, a whole family can bike together and it's very popular during the
summer. We can bike were-ever we want during Covid as long as it's in the 25
km. range.

I actually have 2 bikes ( 1 normal and 1 race bike) and a bike lending
subscription when friends come over ( 1 € / bike / 24 hours for 12€ / year)

~~~
com2kid
One thing confused me about this. In major American cities bike theft is
incredibly common, to the point that the police won't help at all.

I've had bikes repeatedly stolen out of locked garages at home!

I'd never buy a bike that was worth any reasonable amount of money, my commute
pre-covid was a good candidate for an electric bike, but no way would I spend
more than a 2 or 3 hundred dollars on something that will get stolen within 3
years.

Is bike theft just less of a problem in Belgium?

~~~
BurningFrog
When I lived in Sweden, on average one bike would get stolen per year. My
experience in California is similar.

Once you accept that, it's not that much money. The bad part is that you can
never buy that Really Nice bike you'd really want.

~~~
erkken
I'm from Sweden and biked NY to SF a few years ago. During the two months it
took I never locked my bike (didn't brought a lock at all). Just a related a
anecdote ;)

~~~
ahoy
Did you pass through many major cities? In suburban and rural america, you can
absolutely leave a bicycle unlocked and expect it to be there when you return.

------
CalRobert
People are focused on the relatively small amount here, and that's valid, but
I suspect that some of the incentive here is to keep momentum in cycling going
(from people avoiding transit, enjoying temporary bike infra, etc.) and trying
not to lose that progress. There might be a lot of people for whom that €50
means a tuneup that gets them to take the bike out when before it would've
just rusted.

I mean, data would be nice, but that's the hope (I'm guessing)

~~~
ogre_codes
Bikes tend to degrade slowly over time if you don't do regular maintenance.
Most people don't notice the slow decline until it's quite bad when suddenly
it feels like an unreliable POS.

Giving people who are just a little frustrated with their bike might go a long
way to helping keep people from getting to that point at least once.

~~~
cultus
This doesn't get enough attention in cycling promotion. One of the absolute
biggest reasons that people aren't on their bikes is maintenance. Wheels go
out of true, shifting gets wonky, and it starts to look like an unreliable
form of transport.

Sturdier commuter bikes help a lot with this, but every commuter seems to
think they need a bike with super-light wheels and a thin, weak 12-speed
chain.

~~~
karatestomp
This is the _only_ reason I don't ride anymore. I don't get why my complex car
full of caustic liquids and burning them to drive a bunch of parts super fast
can go tens of thousands of miles with nothing but oil changes and nothing
breaks or doesn't work almost-like-new unless I run over a nail, but bikes?
Ugh. Every time I go to get on it, _something 's_ broken. Flat tires
constantly. Changing them sucks and takes forever (rear one, mostly). All the
gear combos that ought to work never quite actually seem to. Something'll come
loose during the ride, creating a safety hazard. And so on.

Give me a bike that doesn't break all the time or at least makes it super-easy
and super-fast to fix any parts that do, and doesn't cost like $1,000 (why the
actual hell should a decent one cost 1/20th as much as a lower-end car?! Think
about what goes into both! How does that make any sense? 1/100 seems more
reasonable, and for one that _does not_ suck just like the $20,000 car
probably does not suck remotely the same way a low-end bike does or it'd get
lemon law'd away) and I'll go back to bike riding.

~~~
michaelt
_> Give me a bike that doesn't break all the time_

What you need is a 'commuter bike' with an aluminium frame, Shimano Nexus
8-speed hub gear and Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres. Should cost less than $500.

You'll need to pump up the tyres every 3 months, and have a bike shop service
it every 2000 miles or so. But I've been riding this configuration twice a day
for 5 years and had maybe 3 punctures in that time and no problems more severe
than that.

~~~
Too
Make sure to get disc brakes also! Preferably hydraulic but not necessary if
you are on a budget.

Those old caliper brakes need constant replacement, constant adjustment,
replacing them requires even more calibration, and tiniest little wobble in
your wheel or dent in your rim will make the brake very erratic and wear
quickly. I get bad shivers down my spine every time i see such brakes, knowing
how much time and frustration I've wasted on maintaining them in the past.

Quality of bike components have gone up past decades so don't be hung up on
old experiences. Build quality matters a lot so make sure to get a reputable
brand also, not something from the corner of the hardware store, doesn't have
to be their top of the line model though, something like 400-800€ should give
you a good one.

------
a3_nm
> The French government is slowly bringing its lockdown to a close from May
> 11, with cyclists allowed back onto the roads for the first time since
> March.

To clarify, this is somewhat inaccurate: biking is permitted, and has always
been permitted, during the French lockdown, as a judgment (in French) recently
confirmed: [https://www.conseil-etat.fr/actualites/actualites/le-
gouvern...](https://www.conseil-etat.fr/actualites/actualites/le-gouvernement-
doit-indiquer-publiquement-que-le-velo-est-autorise-durant-le-confinement).

Cyclists were just subject to the same restrictions as anyone else -- these
restrictions were the same no matter the transportation means.

And yes, these measures should change by May 11, but the details are not
confirmed yet.

~~~
maelito
The french "interior ministry" lied about cycling on twitter, saying you
weren't allow to go out for your daily 1h by bike. The law never said that.
All the newspapers relayed this lie without checking this fact.

~~~
chippy
then one can expect that the population also believed it and social pressure
enacted it?

~~~
nraynaud
it's more like the police actually gave fines for it, and fighting a fine is a
hassle. (in particular now, I don't think really can, probably have to wait fo
re-opening).

------
zymhan
Let's be honest, 50 Euros per person is a drop in the bucket compared to the
subsidies governments give to other modes of transportation.

~~~
hk__2
> Let's be honest, 50 Euros per person is a drop in the bucket compared to the
> subsidies governments give to other modes of transportation.

And that’s largely sufficient. Having a bike doesn’t cost a lot per year:
according to the FNAUT (Fédération des associations des usagers de transport),
on average, bikers spend ~€0.21/km. An air chamber costs €5; an air pump (one-
time purchase) is €10.

~~~
simlevesque
Don't buy cheap air pumps. Those things need to be strong to last. They handle
a lot of pressure. A 10€ air pump will break at the first fall and most have
small bases so they tip easily. And when they break you must buy a new one.

If you really use it, a 25€ pump will cost you way less over as little as 3
years.

~~~
markus92
If you need to put 8 bars in your quick speedy bike? Absolutely.

For a simple urban commuter bike? No difference, you aren’t going to put in
more than 3,5 bars in those fat tires anyways.

~~~
Too
Commuting with 8 bars is way more convenient than 3.5. Having the right
pressure is much underrated. On my way to work i roll by lots of other
struggling commuters without even pedaling, looking at their poor almost flat
tires.

Bike pump is one of those items where you will be happy you invested a few
extra bucks, a good one lasts a lifetime and you will enjoy it every time you
use it, instead of being frustrated to have something that is just barely good
enough. I used to have a bad one and it was so frustrating i only pulled it
out once the tires were desperately flat, got a good one and now i regularly
pump up my tires because it's so effortless.

------
cawlin
People seem motivated to keep their bikes maintained if they don't have to pay
for it themselves from my experience.

In Canada I've volunteered at free bike tune up stations for many years, they
are usually set up at popular summer events or at community centres.

We get a lot of people who aren't confident enough to do basic things like
adjust brakes, gears or even change a flat tire. Most of the time they've
simply rode their bike and dealt with poor performance or issues until it
becomes a problem or they feel it is unsafe to ride.

For these folks getting someone to do extremely basic yearly maintenance would
keep them happily riding for a long time.

------
arrrg
I don’t think TCO is an issue with bikes.

I would estimate the TCO of a bike to be somewhere between €15 and €50 a
month†. That compares favourably to cars which would be somewhere up at €350
to €700 per month, so that’s an order of magnitude off.

If that payment can be an effective incentive to use the bike more that’s
nice, I guess, but I’m not sure it can. Infrastructure would be the most
important (and also most expensive) driver of bike usage if I had to guess.
That’s not easily or quickly changed.

I mean, for us the cost factor definitely is relevant. We can save so much
money by not having a car and there are so few situations where we would need
one (if we really need one we can rent one once a year). So sure: Sometimes a
car would be practical or nice to have but for that little tiny benefit it is
too expensive. So, yeah, TCO does play a role – but I don’t think €50 per year
change that calculus significantly if you have already decided that a car is
worth it for you.

—

† Between €500 and €1,500 for the bike (used for five years), between €100 and
€300 per year for repairs.

~~~
morsch
That's for a fancy bike, not that there's anything wrong with it. You can get
by with a tenth of that if you get a "beater", which may or may not be
sufficient for your urban transportation needs.

~~~
swimfar
Also, the annual repair costs are probably assuming you have someone else do
them. I think that's a reasonable expectation for most people, but it can be
quite a bit less if you can do some of them yourself. I'm pretty sure I
average less than $50/year for all maintenance costs for about 2000 miles of
commuting.

------
SirLuxuryYacht
Since this isn't just a €50 windfall direct deposited into their bank
accounts, as in the IRS stimulus, it seems like the best approach towards
getting people on bikes.

If you are skeptical about whether or not this is a waste of government money,
consider why you have not yet begun commuting by bike. The French just bought
€300M worth of new bike highway and they want it to be used. What costs could
outweigh better air quality and healthier people?

~~~
mytailorisrich
It does not get anyone on bikes since it targets people who already have
bikes.

It is bizarre to think that people who have bikes were waiting for a €50
windfall before actually riding them.

~~~
abdullahkhalids
When you own a 200$ second hand bike, their is a weird psychological pressure
to not spend 30-50$ on repair because it is 15-25% of the actual cost of bike.

I have definitely experienced it myself.

~~~
mytailorisrich
Well it only means that these 'repairs' are not required for you to ride the
bike. Or you don't plan to ride at all.

Either way, the point is that this is windfall spending but does not change
anything to the actual daily use of bikes.

------
GhostVII
Do most people really need $50 for bike maintenance? I think I've spent about
$15 on my beater bike over the last couple years, just to buy a new tube and
maybe some wd40. For the vast majority of people I would imagine that they
don't maintain their bike at all, modern bikes hold together pretty well.

~~~
xenocyon
Your calculation assumes one never needs to replace brake pads, chain, tires;
it also makes no allowance for lights, tools, incidentals, or the occasions
one might need professional repair. Incidentally, WD40 is not a good
substitute for lube.

~~~
GhostVII
Personally, I've very rarely needed to replace those consumables, and I ride
my bikes very hard. Only time I have needed a new chain and cassette is when I
let my bike rust because I rode it all winter without washing it. And I've got
like one set of brake pads in the last 5 years for my 2-3 bikes, since disk
brake pads last pretty well forever as long as you don't foul them with
something. I do go through a lot of tubes though, but no tires yet. As for
tools all my bikes need for maintenance is a couple of allen keys and a
phillips screwdriver.

I could see people spending that money bringing it to a mechanic for a tune up
though. Personally I think that is a waste of money since it's super easy to
tune up bikes yourself, but I do know lots of people who spent years with
their bike shifting like garbage when it would take just a couple minute tune
up to fix.

~~~
abyssin
I doubt your story. Disc brake pads do wear out, especially if you ride very
hard. The same is true for chain and cassette.

~~~
wutwutwutwut
Everything wears out of course, but I've had mine for 7 years going back and
forth to work every day and never replaced my breaks or chain or cassette.
Maybe you experience a quality issue if it's a frequent issue?

~~~
abyssin
If the motor is in the hub, then I can believe wear on the chain and cassette
is minimal. And if you use brakes very sparingly, they could also last for a
long time. I'm interested in the brand of your pads, I need those! I have to
change mine every 1000 kilometres.

~~~
wutwutwutwut
> If the motor is in the hub,

Is this referring to motor as in an electrical bike? I am not using that.

~~~
abyssin
Sorry, I mixed up with a different comment indeed. On electric bikes with the
motor in the wheel hub, the transmission sustains little effort.

------
Pete-Codes
Wow, really cool scheme! Would love to see it in Scotland.

A friend nicely lent me his bike and I've been going for rides every day
during lockdown. Really got the cycling bug now and a scheme like this would
be great.

~~~
AdrianB1
It is so easy to do: just ask your government to increase the taxes by 100
pounds and then give you back 50 pounds. Your loss, but you will be happy for
the 50 pounds you get from the government, not thinking where the money come
from.

~~~
akgerber
Wait until you hear about 'free' parking.

------
frankohn
Adoption of cycling would require more serious actions like improving the road
system for the bicycles so that cyclist are safe from the cars. The cycling
should be also a pleasant activity so that people can do it naturally, without
being forced.

I am in France and I am enjoying now the reduction of car traffic and the
improvement of air quality but this is going to end as soon as the confinement
is over.

~~~
rytis
Same here in London. We still can enjoy relatively car free roads, but this is
definitely going back to "normal" where cycling becomes quite close to a
Russian roulette type of activity... I'd like to commute on a bike, but I'm
not that suicidal (I've clocked in 20k km on London roads commuting, but now
it's too far, too dangerous).

------
DonHopkins
"we want the bicycle to be the queen of deconfinement"

I'll bet that sounds really beautiful in the original French.

~~~
bovine3dom
« Nous voulons que cette période fasse franchir une étape dans la culture
vélo, et que la bicyclette soit la petite reine du déconfinement en quelque
sorte » [1]

I think the English version is nicer. More succinct.

Edit: ah, ok, my rudimentary knowledge of French meant that I missed out on a
pun as another reply to your comment points out. I take it back: a pun trumps
all brevity.

[1]: [https://fr.news.yahoo.com/d%C3%A9confinement-
plan-20-million...](https://fr.news.yahoo.com/d%C3%A9confinement-
plan-20-millions-deuros-222230740.html)

------
londons_explore
Other similar government initiatives always lead to the providers hiking the
price of all repairs and maintenance work by €50...

I'm not sure quite why, since presumably market forces should still work to
make people go to the cheapest bike shop to get as much value as possible for
their €50, but that never seems to happen...

Example: grants to give discounts of ~£300 to install EV charging points in
people's houses simply led to the price of installation rising by £300
overnight.

------
touisteur
The region around Paris decided to give a 500eur subvention for ebikes and
600eur for ecargos. One per adult person if you live in Île de France. Great
(waiting for the check right now) but I'm not sure it didn't jack the prices
up a bit :-\

------
castratikron
The US used to have a similar program, created during the Emergency Economic
Stabilization Act of 2008 and subsequently removed by the Tax Cuts and Jobs
Act of 2018.

Maybe it will come back as part of a new stimulus in 2020?

------
prennert
I am a bit late to the game, so maybe someone already said it in this thread.
I am asuming this is intended to have people cycle to work instead of taking
public transport once the lockdown is lifted. There is just one problem:

As a cyclist in locked down London, the few times I needed to get to the
office on almost empty(!) streets, I noticed how much more difficult social
distancing on a bike is. Not while moving, but while waiting on a red light.
It is usual to wait in front of the queue in the cycle waiting area just in
front of the traffice light. A few times when I waited there more cyclists or
scooters with open helmets would join me there, not respecting social
distancing at all (pedestrians are much better at this).

I think if the direction is going into pushing people into using bicycles much
more than before, an education campaign needs to start that tells cyclists and
scooters how they should behave on red lights. Not sure what the best solution
will be, as I am sure there wont be much space. I guess most people really
would prefer to take their car that naturally enforces separation to others.
So I really expect the roads to become very full in the next weeks.

~~~
Zenbit_UX
> I am asuming this is intended to have people cycle to work instead of taking
> public transport once the lockdown is lifted.

No. It literally says in the subtitle, and then again in the first paragraph
that this is about keeping pollution levels down.

------
profikid
In holland you can buy a bike for 50 euros.

~~~
Raed667
And in France as well (leboncoin.fr), I guess the idea here is to encourage
people who needed a push to fix their tires or breaks to make the move and use
all those bikes left collecting dust.

~~~
_Wintermute
The price of second hand bikes increased massively during the transport
strike, I'm not sure if they've come down yet.

------
jerome-jh
French and cyclist and only discovering this :)

Cyclists in France are mostly middle-upper class. Lower classes have been
excluded from town centers at distances where it is difficult to commute by
bike. And their work is typically in another suburb, where bike infrastructure
is poor or non existing.

I'm not impressed.

------
AdrianB1
So France is taxing people to give them money back; with the costs of the
overhead (processing taxes and these rebates) one can safely assume it is
overall a bad deal, the tax amount is higher than the rebate so the taxpayer
is on the losing end, but happy for the "free stuff".

There is no free meal.

~~~
ZoomerCretin
> So France is taxing people to give them money back;

Yes, that's generally how governments work.

You're right. Obviously the better solution is for everyone to remember the
dozens of tax credits for which they're eligible so they can receive their
reimbursement months afterward.

------
d33lio
Could I put this toward a new innertube for my electric unicycle?

JK. I live in New York City - curious if anyone else in cities have been
increasing use of their personal electric vehicle (PEV) or electric unicycle
during the whole Covid 19 shutdown?

------
11235813213455
I bought my neighbor a bike for 50€ in 2015, and rode more than 5000km a year
(50km to 100km week) on it ever since (commuting to work, shopping, week-end
long rides now that I work remotely)

------
Havoc
That’s a very innovative angle for handing out benefits. I like it

------
diebeforei485
I'd like to see other cities doing something like this. Although a typical
annual tune-up costs closer to $100.

------
gnopgnip
This seems like a really cheap way to get the desired outcome, more people
exercising

------
turowicz
But first you’d have to get to France...

------
whalesalad
This is a very bizarre headline.

------
duxup
Is there some reason to think this has any kind of predictable outcome?

I'm all for good incentives but not if there is no apparent benefit.

------
tomaszs
Is it only me or a gov that during a pandemic that will cause a lots of lost
jobs giving back 50 euro to bicycle owners is a new level of rudiculesness?

------
Nasrudith
Really why not just spend the money on community bicycles and docking
stations, increased racks or similar efforts instead of maintenance? I don't
object to promoting bicycling at all but the means puzzle me a bit.

~~~
MiroF
> community bicycles and docking stations,

I have yet to see a place where those have worked very successfully - they
seem to very quickly fall apart and into disuse. In China, it is even worse.

~~~
lapnitnelav
We have those in Dublin. Seems to be working mostly ok and pretty cheap to
use. A 20€ yearly membership and your rides are free if they last less than 30
minutes. Which means free for most folks.

------
cyrillevincey
This €50 subsides is a fantasy from Cycling Weekly. No announcement was made
by any local or national public authority, and no sign in the French news
about this. Love from Paris anyway.

~~~
Majestic121
If you want a reputable French source :
[https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/04/30/un-plan-
go...](https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/04/30/un-plan-
gouvernemental-de-20-millions-d-euros-pour-encourager-la-pratique-du-velo-au-
deconfinement_6038198_3244.html)

~~~
cyrillevincey
ok my bad

------
nie100sowny
Instead of €50. The government could make €70 tax relief. Then there would be
no need to transfer (€50 x millions of bike owners) through the government's
hands and to waste peoples effort on serving the whole operation.

The only reason why it is not like that is because politicians like to have
our money which gives them power and makes the state bigger and bigger.

~~~
bckygldstn
The US used to have a small tax relief for bike commuters. I agree there'd be
less overhead, but the proposed system will get people to fix their bikes and
ride them.

Tiny tax rebates just get lost in the wash and result in an over-complicated
tax filing process. The govt isn't trying to make cyclists relatively a bit
richer, it's trying to reduce air pollution.

------
alias_neo
It's a nice gesture but hardly solves a problem. If the payment is for a
mechanic to perform some "service" on your bicycle to make it roadworthy
again, and from it you gain neither the tools nor the knowledge to perform two
simple, necessary tasks for a cyclist; replace a tyre/inner tube, or replace a
chain; what's the long term benefit?

How about put 50 euros per cyclist into a tool kit, a dozen inner tubes and
some education (YouTube videos even?) so they can continue to cycle long after
the 50 euro one time service has passed?

~~~
testing312
> to perform two simple, necessary tasks for a cyclist; replace a tyre/inner
> tube, or replace a chain

Never had to do either of those things, driving a bike almost daily throughout
the city to school, hobbies, friends,... The few times my tire went flat, a
short visit to a mechanic cost alsmost nothing

~~~
Jenda_
What total mileage do you have? In my experience, it will start skipping on
some gears after 7000 or maybe 10000 km and then you need to change the entire
drivetrain, because it got destroyer by the heavily worn-out chain.

Learning to fix the flat myself was good because I can do it immediately in 10
minutes without having to walk the bike to the shop (which are closed during
evenings/weekends) and wait.

------
mytailorisrich
This is one of those of those proposals that allows the pats in the back to go
round, but which are in fact completely useless because in effect it is just a
windfall for people who did not ask for anything and who did not need any
help.

~~~
soperj
because most people who bike are rich?

~~~
mytailorisrich
That's beside the point.

If you have a bike and puncture a tyre, you do not wait for the state to give
you money before you repair it. France is one of the world's richest countries
so I'm thinking that the French were not saving up to change their bikes'
tyres...

They've been given free money to spend on bikes, so they will spend it on
bikes (repairs or not, let's be honest, because it's ridiculous to think that
the French are in desperate need of bike repairs). This is just a subsidy for
bike shops and bike accessories companies and it allows to spin how green the
government is.

~~~
chrisseaton
> France is one of the world's richest countries

Not even in the top 20.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_\(PPP\)_per_capita)

~~~
Etheryte
While I don't agree with the original discussion points, I don't think this
counterpoint has much merit. While France may not be "one of the richest"
verbatim, there's no denying France is a rich first-world country. In the list
you linked to, it ranks 25 out of 187 by the IMF estimate and similarly in
other listings.

~~~
mytailorisrich
This was not a counterpoint point at all. More like bike-shedding meets
strawman.

There has not been any counterpoint to my comments yet, actually. My guess is
because people have an emotional and ideological take on this: Cycling is good
so giving money to fund repairs of bike has to be a positive measure as well.
Except that it is not based on any economic or rational reasoning. I'm pretty
certain that the only result will be to fund superfluous purchases or upgrades
because that the standard effect of windfall subsidies.

~~~
soperj
How? they aren't even giving people the money. It's literally just for
repairs. If anyone here is having an emotional/ideological take it would be
you.

~~~
mytailorisrich
That's not an argument...

"Just for repairs" is exactly my point.

This is what makes it quite obvious that it won't do anything regarding uptake
of cycling. It's a windfall, people will obviously be happy and may take the
opportunity to upgrade to more expensive parts, but that's about it. If they
needed repairs they would have had them done anyway.

This is a political measure that has no practical value.

There was a public transport strike in France recently and that caused an
uptake in cycling.

I expect the same after the end of the lockdown because people may still be
wary of public transport.

This subsidy brings nothing.

~~~
soperj
What expensive parts are you getting for 50 euro?

