
Facebook intimidates developer, bans him and his code for life - surfingdino
http://www.reddit.com/r/facebook/comments/o76m7/facebook_intimidates_developer_bans_him_and_his/
======
ig1
Facebook terms of usage <https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms>

Section 3.2:

"You will not collect users' content or information, or otherwise access
Facebook, using automated means (such as harvesting bots, robots, spiders, or
scrapers) without our permission."

Seems writing a bot that automatically takes actions on a user's behalf would
clearly violate the Facebook terms.

Banning bots is perfectly reasonable behaviour for any site, a badly written
bot, especially one that's distributed to large numbers of users could very
easily cause a denial-of-service attack because of sloppy programming.

Facebook probably should have just dropped the developer a friendly email
rather than a letter from their lawyers and banning the developer might be
going over-far, but there's nothing wrong with them wanting to ban the plugin.

~~~
shadowmint
Have you ever read the Facebook TOS fully?

I challenge you to find a single game on the site that does not violate one of
their extremely vaguely worded clauses.

This is basically just a "We can, for any reason, at any time, ban you. Suck
it up."

That's why I've lost all interest in the Facebook platform.

Too much of this nonsense going on.

~~~
ceol
_> This is basically just a "We can, for any reason, at any time, ban you.
Suck it up."_

It probably had to do with his plugin enabling users to play Facebook games
without actually playing them. I'm sure game creators want a human looking at
the ads in (and next to) their games, so it's no wonder he was banned.

------
JonnieCache
_> but it also seriously limits his chances of finding employment as a
programmer._

That doesn't sound quite right. _TOO HOT FOR FACEBOOK!!!_ could look great on
the right résumé.

The whole thing is just what we've come to expect from facebook by now tbh.

~~~
vectorpush
True, but it does suck to be banned from the ubiquitous platform in which
you've spent time becoming highly specialized.

edit: Apparently he developed a _browser_ plugin that doesn't use Facebook's
API, so it looks like this may actually be a decent endorsement.

~~~
therandomguy
Highly specialized in facebook API? If you are a half decent developer you can
easily pick up any API in few days if not in few hours.

~~~
chris_engel
Not on facebook. It feels like IE6 in development. About one billion pittfalls
and the documentation is not helpful most of the time.

------
zeratul
Here is a snippet from Friendly Gaming Simplifier Message Board:

    
    
       On the day of 6th January 2012 02:05 GMT+1, I have  
       received a legal note from Perkins Coie attorney company, 
       which is representing Facebook Inc., based in Menlo Park, 
       California.
    
       According to this note I must follow all of the below 
       demands „In order to avoid further escalation of this 
       matter”:
       - Stop offering the FGS Browser Software, or any other 
       software that interferes with Facebook’s intended 
       limitations or impairs the proper working of Facebook,
       - I must cease and not access the Facebook site(s) and/or 
       services for any reason whatsoever.
    

I cannot find explanation why he got this message.

~~~
surfingdino
It doesn't look like they provided any explanation, just gave a "fair"
warning, "In order to avoid further escalation of this matter."

------
lazerwalker
What's really funny about telling him he's not allowed to use any Facebook
services is that, short of blocking all connections between his computer and
Facebook's servers, he _can't_. Even if he never goes to facebook.com again,
he'll still encounter Like buttons and other FB social plugins on many, many
sites.

------
baby
I don't know if HN is that stupid...

Here's my story. I made a facebook website using their API in a bad way.
EXACTLY like this story, that guy knew he was using facebook's API in bad way.
I got 100.000 fans on my facebook app and then they closed it, banned me
domain and banned me from using the API again. It doesn't mean I'm banned from
using their API again... they're saying a lot of things they don't do... and
it doesn't mean also that I can't work for a company that need a facebook
developer (and that would be a shitty job).

sorry for my english I'm french.

but this article is sensationalism !

------
feralchimp
1\. FB's lawyers sent him a letter asking him to stop. No more, no less.

2\. Being 'banned from FB' is not really a legally defined classification for
human beings, and HR organizations are paid to care about actual legal
reality.

3\. If he's not using FB APIs or other licensed information, how are FB's
options for "further escalation" anything more than a louder brand of saber
rattling? All it takes is one good lawyer looking to stand up to Goliath pro-
bono, in a case that we know would be very highly publicized, and suddenly all
the downside to a court battle is on FB's end. On what legal theory could FB
hope to receive damages?

4\. Despite all of the above, sometimes knuckling under and running for cover
is the right move. A good programmer knows his limitations, and he's under no
obligation to stick his neck out.

~~~
DanBC
> _On what legal theory could FB hope to receive damages?_

Possibly: Increased costs of support to 130,000 people using unapproved
software in combination to Facebook, who get weird results from the software
when Facebook updates something and blame Facebook not the software, and who
bitch and moan to Facebook for support? (Obviously most people don't bother
with support, and they just complain to friends.)

------
varenc
Its important to note he was developing a browser extension and was not
interacting with Facebook's exposed APIs.

------
anothermachine
He wasn't "banned for life". He received a "cease and desist" letter from
Facebook's lawyer that threatened (bluffed) to escalate their challenge
against the game. It's classic scare tactic employed by lawyers for unethical
clients.

~~~
surfingdino
He quotes "I must cease and not access the Facebook site(s) and/or services
for any reason whatsoever." There is not EOL date in his statement.

~~~
chc
It's not the "for life" anothermachine is disputing, it's the "banned." What
he received sounds like a simple nastygram. I could send you a letter
demanding that you give me your house, but that wouldn't mean that you are
obliged to do so.

~~~
surfingdino
He's not a US citizen, he doesn't have funds to fight Facebook and he cannot
count on the lawyers to help him for free. They used disproportionate force
against him. I'm sure he will remember that lesson.

~~~
beedogs
If he's not a US citizen and he isn't in the US, what's he got to lose by
continuing to distribute the plugin? Any judgement against him would be pretty
much pointless.

------
k-mcgrady
Why was he banned? I can't seem to find the reason on the reddit page or the
developers blog post.

~~~
MBCook
I've never heard of the plugin before, but it looks like it did some of the
tedium of clicking on the game status updates for you. (If someone can give a
good description, I would love to see it).

My guess is that FB doesn't like the software doing this because it means the
users aren't doing it themselves, and thus aren't able to see the ads they
would have otherwise, cutting down on revenue.

The only other reason I can think of that would make any sense is that the
games servers might have had load issues (since the plugin could act faster
and on more things than a human). However, I would put my ad theory above as
far more likely.

~~~
mbell
>The only other reason I can think of that would make any sense is that the
games servers might have had load issues (since the plugin could act faster
and on more things than a human). However, I would put my ad theory above as
far more likely.

Also consider that many facebook games operate with a micro-transactional
model where you CAN buy stuff with in game currency earned by the 'tedious
clicking' but if you want to speed things up, you can buy currency with real
cash. If the 'tedious clicking' is mitigated by a plugin, then the pressure to
pay real cash is decreased, costing the app developers revenue

So, this plugin reduces facebook's ad revenue, reduces app developer's revenue
and if the application uses facebook credits as currency, facebook loses its
cut of lost developer revenue as well. Its' not at all surprising that
facebook went after it.

~~~
shadowmint
The key issue here is that is was a plugin that acted like a robot on the
site.

Effectively they only thing that Facebook can do about that sort of
application is ban people using it.

However, just like the Wow Glider saga they chose to pressure the developer
instead. However, unlike that, it was just a browser plugin. No magical API
calls, or anything like that.

I couldn't care less about micro-transactions, ad views and the spamware
Facebook applications: Facebook is doing this because they can't take the
bitter pill of banning _users_ who violate their TOS; instead they will attack
the developer of said tool.

There is no justifying their actions.

fail.

~~~
mbell
Sorry but this post reeks of of personal hatred toward facebook and contains
little value.

Regardless of the method chosen to attack this issue at the end of the day
this hurts both their bottom line and their app developer's bottom line, which
hurts the user base as a whole. Clearly your not a facebook user, so frankly,
your opinion doesn't matter to them as long as your the minority.

Of course they would go after the source of the issue instead of their profit
center (users). Are you really arguing that Facebook is evil for not attacking
their users? I mean really its terrible of them to focus on their users and
their profit centers over a singular third party developer, absolutely
terrible.

I have a feeling if this article was titled "Facebook bans 50,000 users" you
would have come here and made the same "I hate Facebook" argument.

~~~
shadowmint
Don't be silly. Of course I use Facebook. Most people do.

I have no time of day for the developers of the spamware that fill it, but
that's not the issue here.

A plugin that does not in any way use the Facebook api is just a stand alone
application.

This is exactly what Cory Doctorow is talking about with the war on general
purpose computing. A company flailing wilding and applying bad (legal)
pressure to bare against the issue of people using their computers to do
something the company doesn't like (in this case automating game actions) is
the wrong solution.

~~~
mbell
I don't understand your position at all. In essence it appears to be "if they
don't use our API we have no recourse at all, its all fair use". Along the
same lines any bot that automates any computer game is "ok", even if it
destroys an entire industry of professional gaming, any application that
scraps web data is "ok", etc. HN even blocks that kind of use.

------
shortformblog
This sounds very similar to the Missing e situation that Tumblr users are
facing:

[http://shortformblog.tumblr.com/post/15046201810/missing-
e-t...](http://shortformblog.tumblr.com/post/15046201810/missing-e-tumblr-
message)

Essentially a plugin got really popular to the point where it was starting to
cause problems. Tumblr hasn't gone so far as to get lawyers involved, however,
but they have put a message up for regular users of the plugin, suggesting
they turn it off.

------
joe_the_user
Hmm,

There is a little more on this here:

[http://blog.games.com/2012/01/06/facebook-friendly-gaming-
si...](http://blog.games.com/2012/01/06/facebook-friendly-gaming-simplifier-
cease-desist/)

" _...the plug-in had racked up an impressive following of players "in-the-
know," who kept the project a secret for fear of such an outcome..._ "

Maybe such a plugin shouldn't be disallowed by Facebook but it seems like it
wasn't surprising to many people that it was...

------
Kriegar
Apparently, FGS was banned because one lone game developer made it a point to
complain. This particular browser extension was both the least intrusive, and
smoothest working, of its' kind. The developer also worked WITH the game
developers. so that this extension worked in a way that the game developers
agreed to.

The myriad explanations as to "why" this happened can be found in these two
articles, at the least, and in the comments to them.

<http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-727662>

<http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-728485>

For those who seem to believe that this was anything other than an
UNREASONABLE action on the part of Facebook, I suggest that the only way to
make REASONABLE would be to enjoin other, BIGGER programs that do what this
one did and more. Programs that allow you to do things that one CANNOT do in-
game, which is not something this browser extension did.

------
ginacogeasca
Is not cheating definitively, this program is doing nothing else that collect
from our walls, the items from the walls is free, so we don't have the
possibility to collect stuff for which we suppose to pay... just collect the
postings, if nobody took it before you...and with FGS, in 2 clicks you can
collect hundreds...that's why all the ill people on Facebook was so in need of
this program. For the people like me it was good, because when I come home
after a whole day of work, I can collect item posted 12 hours before. And
another wonderful thing which this FGS is doing, is that is receiving and
sending back hundreds of gifts with 1 click. Having this wonderful FGS, we
start to play 6-7 games, now without it, many of us are forced to quit playing
and because many are on Facebook just for play, we'll close the Facebook
accounts also. :(

------
bennytjia
I would hire him

~~~
bennytjia
The fact that

1\. a developer could create a working product that is live and used by a lot
of users. 2\. a developer could create something that draws a significant
attention from a huge company like facebook since it turns out that the
product has significant impact that it's actually all over the news when
facebook tries to limit it.

These to me would not be a strong reason for hurting a chance of employment.
On the other hand, this is the kind of developer you want to work with.

~~~
surfingdino
These things can bite you when you least expect them. Say you hired him to
write a web app and later on the users (or investors, or clients) want to have
FB login. Now you need to fire the guy or separate him from the FB login
implementation, testing, and use. The guy's got a huge target mark on his ass.

~~~
fleitz
No it's just a cease and desist letter, even if he did comply its not a
binding agreement. And even if he did agree facebooks systems are so automated
that he would likely recieve an invite to use their systems which would
nullify the ban. People banned from casinos often receive invitations to visit
the casino which nullify the ban via the casinos marketing efforts.

~~~
Natsu
> even if he did comply its not a binding agreement.

They're claiming he violated the ToS, which probably is binding. Moreover,
they can take direct action to boot him from Facebook.

I think Facebook is being silly here, but I don't see why people appear to
think that they wouldn't follow through on their threats.

------
sdizdar
I have a question which is more legal related. It is "public" secret that US
government (and other governments) have and use persona management softwares
which clearly violate Facebook terms of usage. The question is: does Facebook
has any legal standing against that? Can Facebook or other social networks sue
government for offering private intelligence companies contracts to create
software to manage "fake people"?

~~~
dangrossman
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity_in_the_Unite...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity_in_the_United_States)

------
neworbit
OK, so where's the source ;)

~~~
atesti
Here: <http://code.google.com/p/fgs/source/checkout>

------
BIGGIRLSDONTCRY
I NEED HELP FINDING OUT ABOUT SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN PLAYING A PRETTY NASTY GAME
WITH ME, IS ANYONE WILLING TO HELP?

------
josefrichter
limits his chances of finding employment as a programmer??

Why exactly? Facebook API is s __t and no good programmer wants to develop on
top of it.

~~~
kaonashi
No good programmer wants to, but does so anyways because of Facebook's
marketing potential.

------
flexterra
What about all the Like buttons everywhere?

~~~
eridius
It's the Facebook subreddit, that's a custom style set on that subreddit. The
like buttons are actually reedit upvote buttons.

~~~
chuffindiesel
All the info regards the FB v FGS fiasco can be found here;

[https://www.facebook.com/help/community/question/?id=1911115...](https://www.facebook.com/help/community/question/?id=1911115&ref=notif&notif_t=answers_answered)

<https://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/savefgs>

<http://www.zdnet.com/tb/1-112687#1_112687_2285681>

<http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-728485>

[http://thedailyattack.com/2012/01/07/facebook-intimidates-
de...](http://thedailyattack.com/2012/01/07/facebook-intimidates-developer-
bans-him-and-his-code-for-life/)

[https://www.facebook.com/pages/Support-Arkadiusz-flies-
Rzadk...](https://www.facebook.com/pages/Support-Arkadiusz-flies-
RzadkowolskiCreator-of-FGS/273823565972663?sk=wall)

[http://www.zdnet.com/blog/facebook/facebook-bans-browser-
plu...](http://www.zdnet.com/blog/facebook/facebook-bans-browser-plugin-fgs-
and-its-developer/6955)

[http://journalxtra.com/games/facebook-bully-fgs-cease-
desist...](http://journalxtra.com/games/facebook-bully-fgs-cease-desist-
notice-fb-lawyers-4580)

[http://facebookkit.com/facebook-bans-browser-plugin-fgs-
and-...](http://facebookkit.com/facebook-bans-browser-plugin-fgs-and-its-
developer/)

<http://rddweb.com/fgs-facebook-zynga/>

[http://blog.games.com/2012/01/06/facebook-friendly-gaming-
si...](http://blog.games.com/2012/01/06/facebook-friendly-gaming-simplifier-
cease-desist/)

<http://www.sims-social.com/2012/01/help-save-fgs.html>

[http://www.ixwebhosting.mobi/facebook-disable-plug-ins-
more-...](http://www.ixwebhosting.mobi/facebook-disable-plug-ins-more-
than-27000-users-fgs-petition-to-retain/)

<http://www.cityvillechat.com/news/facebook-attacks-citizen/>

~~~
ginacogeasca
hi, I'm new in here and made an account just because I saw you talking about
Arkadiusz Flies and his FGS. FGS is not a bot as others, as I am just a simple
user of the computer, I'm not able to explain you what it is, but before judge
Flies, please inform yourself, and after, when you'll understand that he is
completely innocent, you'll give me and 30.000 others some help. FGS is the
best ever, is completely different of other bonus collectors, has his own
browser which has nothing to do with cheating and collecting unpaid stuff. Wwe
can collect with one click hundreds of bonuses from our friends walls, nothing
stgealing...just the stuff we loose because we have to go to work sometimes :)
We've started to believe that facebook want to legally steal the program from
Flies... Please help...this kind of bullshit can happen to anyone if we don't
stand up. Facebook is taking advantage because Flies is a student, he can't
pay for a legally action against this Facebook. Yes, we thought about Google
+, but I don't know if Google is a good platform for FGS and...what's the
sense to go in Google, when our games 20-30 there are not yet on Google... If
Google will accept all these games, millions of people will leave for good
this shit Facebook. We're waiting just a little sign from Google, in the
meantime we made all accounts and took Flies in our circle. Till then, we need
all the help we can find.

