
Why I Defaulted on My Student Loans - forrest_t
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/why-i-defaulted-on-my-student-loans.html?_r=0
======
nullrouted
Why do people like this absolve themselves of all responsibility. You made the
choice to take out all those loans and attend a liberal arts college, good for
you and now it is time for you to pay up.

While you got to party in College on someone else's dime, I worked 80 hours
per week and built my career. I'm sorry your choice didn't pan out the way you
thought it would but I'm really getting tired of the idea that people should
just be able to walk away from student loan debt because they believe it is
"unfair."

~~~
d23
The truth is these kids aren't really adults, and no one along the way is
incentivized to stop them and say "hey, you may be making a really terrible
decision here." Instead, everyone encourages them. English major? Great! No
major? Even better! You have time to decide! $100k in debt? A degree is worth
it!

Thankfully I had programming skills to fall back on, but when you're 18 years
old and you're surrounded by people giving you awful advice that could ruin
your life, you may not be able to recognize it.

~~~
restalis
"when you're 18 years old and you're surrounded by people giving you awful
advice that could ruin your life, you may not be able to recognize it"

I remember being 18 and I was terrified of loans, or of any kind of
arrangements that could limit the options of my future! Advices, even ones
that come from well-intended people, weren't worth much for me if they weren't
supported by detailed plans in which I would end up OK. Receiving such
insurance plans proved to be next to impossible, because and as you may
presume, those who seriously suggest you mortgaging your life aren't the most
forward-looking people!

...so no, I don't sympathize with that naive kid not thinking straight about
his own future. I actually feel that this kind of practice represents one of
our time's laws of natural selection.

------
dpark
I think tuition trends are appalling and it's a real problem that so many
students leave college saddled with debt that will drag them down for a decade
or more. (It's also a little insane that even bankruptcy can't shed student
loan debt.) However, it's really hard to sympathize with someone who went to
Columbia to get not just one but three degrees rather than attend a state
university because he "deserved better". Ten years of loans to attend a school
that costs over $50K/year (today) and then playing the victim?

This seems a lot like buying a Ferrari because you need a car, instead of
doing the sensible thing and getting a Civic. Sure, you've got crippling debt.
But it seems entirely self-inflicted.

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tsotha
These kinds of op ed pieces are always shocking in the way they drip with
entitlement. He quit his job as a shoe salesman, where he would be a district
manager if he stayed he'll have you know, because he was just too good for
that kind of job.

Why does he think that? Why does he think himself somehow above the other
people selling shoes, and indeed the district managers of shoe-selling
operations? Does he really think other people selling shoes couldn't have
gotten a liberal arts degree from Columbia if they were willing to take on
foolish amounts of debt?

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TheMagicHorsey
These entitled assholes and their liberal arts degrees. Why does this guy
think that the State has to pay him to enjoy 4 years of reading whatever works
of literature he found amusing. If he doesn't get any skills that make him
employable ... then we the citizens of America have to subsidize his 4-year
party?

Maybe this sir should have thought about what he was learning in school. And
if he was too young to think about that at the time he went to school, maybe
we shouldn't be giving him the power to make those spending decisions at that
age--or maybe we should be withholding loans from students pursuing such
worthless degree programs.

This idea that the world must mold itself to the interests of liberal arts
students or the hysterical theories of liberal arts professors--oh reading the
classics will expand your mind!--is a bunch of bullshit.

Of course the liberal arts faculty want you to keep buying into the failed
state that is their department. That's the only way they keep chugging along.
But employers have long ago figured out that they want to hire smart kids. And
smart kids were smart before they entered these programs.

~~~
jnet
"Of course the liberal arts faculty want you to keep buying into the failed
state that is their department"

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I distinctly remember almost every
intro class I took the professor would try to sell me on the fact that it
would be the greatest degree ever. Unfortunately, while some areas of study
may be interesting, they are not always a good ROI and I think that is what
alot of college kids don't understand.

~~~
tsotha
To be fair to the professors, they wouldn't be teaching intro to whatever if
they weren't genuinely enthusiastic about the subject.

Also, while the ROI on some majors is terribly negative over a large
population, that choice has likely worked out very well for the professors
teaching the class. A tenured position at a major university is the closest
you're ever going to get in life to a sure thing.

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a-dub
It all went to hell in 2005 because of this little gem:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_and...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_and_Consumer_Protection_Act)

See, there are two primary forms of financing for higher education: The
heavily regulated federal market, where the federal government guarantees the
loans, but also maintains rules that ensure that repayment is affordable by
way of myriad flexibility in repayment (including a very reasonable $50k total
cap in principal lended), and the private market which is very much similar to
other forms of consumer financing.

The BAPCPA changed the rules and handed out protection to private lenders
outside of the federal system that made private student loans special in that
they became nondischargable in bankruptcy.

Now take a room, throw in some profit hungry lenders drunk on an elixir or
reduced risk prepared by the federal government, a bunch of kids that aren't
old enough to drink, some old school notions about the value of expensive
college degrees, more old school notions about the value of liberal arts
degrees and a pile of overzealous university administrators looking to expand
by pushing overpriced preparation for vaporcareers and guess what you get,
this mess.

~~~
runamok
Finally an actual factual and interesting comment instead of moralizing.
Apparently 16 year olds cannot drink or have consensual sex (in most states)
but are capable of taking out loans for hundred of thousands of dollars and
make accurate predictions of the viability of various careers.

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nostrebored
I don't understand how people can be so sure that they've made the right
choice: If society isn't willing to give you anything for it, how are you sure
it's your 'usefulness in life'? Usefulness to whom?

How is this person supposed to be a sympathetic character, when he paid none
of the investment towards higher education, reaped a number of the benefits,
and then lumps people who played by the rules/lived within their means as sad?

The sheer level of entitlement and narcissism displayed by acknowledging "I
could give up what had become my vocation (in my case, being a writer) and
take a job that I didn’t want in order to repay the huge debt I had
accumulated in college and graduate school" but then going on to shirk the
debt for your own personal benefit is disgusting.

~~~
Frondo
"If society isn't willing to give you anything for it, how are you sure it's
your 'usefulness in life'?"

Because usefulness isn't measured only in money.

(Think of the children! No, really. They cost a ton, no guarantee they'll live
to support you in your dotage even, but people still have them.)

~~~
nostrebored
Society gives you a ton of validation, support, and encouragement to pursue
having/raising children well. I'm not saying usefulness is only measured in
money, but money is definitely one of many barometers to gauge if you're doing
something useful. Seeing as this article specifically discussed his career, I
think that money is a pertinent measure of what society would like you to
do/you should do to fulfill your obligations.

------
vskarine
Sociopath Explains Why He’s Above Paying Off His Debts:
[http://freebeacon.com/blog/sociopath-explains-why-hes-
above-...](http://freebeacon.com/blog/sociopath-explains-why-hes-above-paying-
off-his-debts/)

------
mattbgates
I'm sorry, but if you want to go to college, it's all a business. The
experience you get, the paper you receive guarantees you nothing. You make
college what you will. Banks and loan companies offer to lend you money with
the intentions of running their own business. I graduated with $40,000 of
debt. I got a job making $12 an hour as a programmer, way underpaid, and knew
there was no way I was going to be debt-free ever, or so I thought. For a
year, I did my best, got one raise, but I couldn't take it anymore, and
decided to apply for new jobs, considering I had a college education, I had an
advantage above many others. I applied and got 2 jobs. I worked about 18 hours
a day for almost a year, and after all was said and done, it took me about 2
1/2 years to pay it back. After that, the IRS decided to come after me with a
slap in the face asking for $6,000. I eventually paid off my student loans AND
the IRS, and the next year after that, I ended up owing the IRS $3,000 more,
but that is life and reality. I paid it off, changed my w4 so they take
everything from me up front in hopes that I owe nothing anymore, and I am
comfortably working in a job I love debt-free. Welcome to life. Defaulting
does make you delinquent in the eyes of the law, or the loan companies, as
well you should be. If I lent you $10,000 and told you I was charging you 6%
interest, I'd expect to be paid back the original $10,000 I lent you and all
the interest you accrued for each year you couldn't afford to pay me back.
Welcome to the real world, my friend. Welcome to owning up to your
responsibilities. Oh wait... you didn't do that.

I do agree with you that education is overpriced and the value for your buck
is insane, but people are paying it, and those who do, especially those who
are studying the right fields of science, mathematics, medical, engineering,
and computer science are coming out on top and making great money. With the
exception of several degrees in which a further education is necessary, those
who study anything else tend to find it harder and rougher to get jobs. Truth
about the workforce is: YOU NEED SKILLS. YOU NEED TO FIND SOMETHING THAT MAKES
YOU IN DEMAND! Unfortunately, the college degree helps you get into the door,
but it's what you truly have to offer that brings you much further in life. In
my case, I am extremely good at picking up new computer languages, from
computer programming to web design. Add value to yourself by acquiring new
skills and selling them to companies.

------
cko
My first reaction was the same as many comments below. "He made a poor choice
and now doesn't want to take responsibility."

But...

I was talking to my sister the other day, who just graduated from an Ivy
League school. All her life she's been in accelerated programs with other
well-to-do kids. I realized that she has always interacted with people with
above average intelligence, above average connections, above average wealth.
I'm betting that many HNers have at least one of those privileges. The
overwhelming majority of people do not.

Over time I see a recurring theme: that people who are uneducated and poor are
so easily taken advantage of. I've seen single moms lease $30000 SUVs for 600
a month. People who, after work, sit in front of the television and spend -all
their money on the weekends.

The world makes it so easy to fuck up. I always have to remind myself, a
person with the single privilege of above average intelligence: what is
obvious to me is not obvious to others. Yes, books are ubiquitous and cheap.
Yes, people should know what they are signing up for. Yes, debts should be
paid. But perhaps these things some of us take for granted as simple realities
are not so obvious for an overwhelming majority. It is not their fault.

~~~
Lawtonfogle
>I've seen single moms lease $30000 SUVs for 600 a month.

The alternative is to tell them they aren't educated enough to take out a
lease.

Imagine how this would be applied to other scenarios. Say... telling someone
they aren't educated/financially secure enough to have children.

------
CyberDildonics
It's interesting that what we consider to be barbaric and primitive was a poor
lower class of people who were uneducated while their lives were indentured.
Now we have educated people who's lives are indentured.

~~~
MCRed
Do you think the writer of this article actually got educated? I would argue
they have not been educated, nor have they matured.

And that right there is an indictment of the college system.

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oldmanjay
Hey why not? The system is, in a word, fucked. Something huge is needed to
shake it up, and a massive wave of irresponsible defaults would certainly
focus efforts.

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PhantomGremlin
For a variety of opinions about this, don't overlook the 697 comments at the
article itself.

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zomg
tldr; too bad that the majority of student loans are issued by the US
government and filing bankruptcy doesn't clear them from your credit
history...

