
Startup Serves Up Chicken Produced From Cells in Lab - sethbannon
https://www.wsj.com/articles/startup-to-serve-up-chicken-strips-cultivated-from-cells-in-lab-1489570202
======
sethbannon
After not eating meat for over 20 years due to the environmental and ethical
concerns over how it's conventionally been made, I was lucky enough to be at
the tasting described in the WSJ article. I wrote about it here:
[https://medium.com/@sethbannon/i-just-ate-meat-for-the-
first...](https://medium.com/@sethbannon/i-just-ate-meat-for-the-first-time-
in-20-years-214d0f875568)

~~~
nicholas73
I wish the tasting was done with simple preparations, so we can read about how
it tastes compared to regular meat. After all, even pastured chicken tastes
wildly better than conventional chicken.

~~~
sprocket
> After all, even pastured chicken tastes wildly better than conventional
> chicken.

As a farmer who used to raise pastured chicken, I was always happy to convert
people to what real chicken is supposed to taste like.

~~~
Waterluvian
Is the difference simply that the meat is meat from a well fed, exercised
chicken vs. a force fed obese monstrosity?

Kind of like eating me vs. eating an Olympian.

~~~
sprocket
I pastured Cornish Cross, which is the standard broiler barn chickens. They
are genetically predisposed to pack on as much muscle in as short a time span
as possible. By the time they're ~ 9 to 10 weeks old, they are waddling
giants, and I'd definitely not characterize them as exercised. :)

That said, the difference that being able to forage green grass and insects in
the short period they were out on pasture (usually 4-6 weeks, weather
dependent) was so remarkable in terms of the flavour and the texture of the
meat, that we're effectively ruined for eating any other non-pastured
chickens. The fat was rich and velvety, the dark meat was meaty and deep in
flavour; everything was just moist and juicy and delicious.

We didn't do many on a yearly basis (about 1000 +/-), and I was primarily
using them for fertilizing pasture that I was grazing with our dairy herd. The
fact that they were spectacular eating was just a side benefit.

If you're ever able to track one down, I'd highly recommend giving one a go.

~~~
ethbro
And as a quick point out, the feed conversion ratio [1] on poultry is pretty
stellar. Anywhere from 1.5-3.5:1 is normal for feed:body weight increase.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed_conversion_ratio](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed_conversion_ratio)

~~~
sprocket
Cornish Cross in particular are fantastic at converting feed into weight gain.
In 10 weeks, you can go from a fluffy little ping pong ball sized chick to an
almost 10lb live-weight bird. It's often unwise to raise them past that age,
because the rate of weight gain puts so much stress on their internals that
they'll frequently keel over from a heart condition. By the 8 to 9 week stage,
they're already so heavy that they can only take a handful of steps because
having to plop down and have a rest for a bit.

------
readams
Though I'm a meat eater, I have a strong suspicion that the arrival of high-
quality meat alternatives will cause a societal shift away from eating meat to
the point where it would become rare. As it is, giving up meat is a huge
decline in quality of life and its easy to rationalize meat consumption.

It needs to be actually comparable in quality and the price needs to come way
down though first. It's easy to imagine a future where the _best_ meat is
actually grown in this way and is nonetheless cheaper than more
environmentally friendly than raising animals.

And of course, then it becomes possible to build meats that correspond to no
actual animal

~~~
markba
How is it a huge decline in quality of life?

~~~
m_fayer
Meat is the easiest form of high quality protein. Not everyone's digestive
system is amenable to high quantities of non-meat protein sources or to high-
carb diets.

~~~
marricks
How is it easiest? Perhaps most accessible how society is currently setup, but
beans, tofu, etc are all good for you, plenty of vegan body builders rely on
them.

This "high quality" protein myth is garbage.

~~~
Ensorceled
This is what drives me crazy about vegans.

Sorry, it is easier to eat meat. The protein IS higher quality, easier to
digest and more balanced. Eating nutritional yeast and balancing your legumes,
tofu and other protein sources to get a proper assortment of B vitamins and
amino acids IS harder.

Not saying it's not healthier, not saying is not more ethical, not saying
anything except it IS easier. Stop lying.

~~~
throwaway243546
> This is what drives me crazy about vegans.

Do you think all vegans are the same? There is no need to make a huge
generalization about a group that is so diverse.

> The protein IS higher quality, easier to digest and more balanced

I've never seen anyone claim that meat is easier to digest than plants. Do you
have a source?

In terms of quality, you first need to define quality and that depends on your
goals. Whole plant protein comes packed with fiber, while animal protein comes
packed with cholesterol, IGF-1 and saturated fat. If your goal is to prevent
heart disease and cancer through dietary means, plant protein is higher
quality.

> Eating nutritional yeast and balancing your legumes, tofu and other protein
> sources to get a proper assortment of B vitamins and amino acids IS harder.

This statement makes it clear that you don't know much about vegan diets. This
is usually a concern I hear from pre-vegans or people who have been vegan for
2 weeks.

> not saying anything except it IS easier. Stop lying. If I was ever worried
> about getting all 9 essential amino acids in a single meal (believe me, most
> vegans don't think about it), I would eat beans and rice, or lentils and
> potatoes, or edamame, or tempeh, or quinoa, or hummus and crackers, or a
> peanut butter sandwich, or tofu. For me, this is a lot easier (and cheaper)
> than preparing meat.

If you've been eating meat for 20 years, it will be easier for you to keep
eating meat, no one is disputing that.

Now, eating out is definitely harder as a vegan, but like the parent said,
it's because the way society is currently setup, not because meat is easier to
produce.

~~~
Ensorceled
> Do you think all vegans are the same? There is no need to make a huge
> generalization about a group that is so diverse.

True, I should have qualified this. It's only a subset of vegans who frustrate
me this way.

> I've never seen anyone claim that meat is easier to digest than plants. Do
> you have a source?

Really? Google "is meat easier to digest than vegetable protein". It literally
has millions of results.

> In terms of quality, you first need to define quality and that depends on
> your goals. Whole plant protein comes packed with fiber, while animal
> protein comes packed with cholesterol, IGF-1 and saturated fat. If your goal
> is to prevent heart disease and cancer through dietary means, plant protein
> is higher quality.

Yeah, I get this argument. It's why I'm eating vegetarian or vegan at least a
few times a week these days.

> This statement makes it clear that you don't know much about vegan diets.
> This is usually a concern I hear from pre-vegans or people who have been
> vegan for 2 weeks.

I'm going by discussions such the ones in my vegan cookbooks, similar to this
one:

[http://veganhealth.org/articles/protein](http://veganhealth.org/articles/protein)

> If you've been eating meat for 20 years, it will be easier for you to keep
> eating meat, no one is disputing that.

That was the crux of my argument: it is NOT easy to be vegan, stop saying it
is. It is arguably better. Healthier _and_ more ethically sound. But my vegan
days have much more time-consuming shopping, cooking and prep days.

------
digikata
So why are all the engineered meat startups targeting pretty common meats that
are fairly low cost? Why not a something like tuna which is endangered and can
sell at a really high cost per pound. Take the Tesla strategy and build for a
high-end exotic market that can sustain a high-margin first then get into
position for the wider, lower margin market.

~~~
greglindahl
One meat startup went into high-end leather:
[http://www.modernmeadow.com/](http://www.modernmeadow.com/)

Another algae-to-make-food company went into high-end oils for cosmetics:
[http://www.solazyme.com/](http://www.solazyme.com/) (and some other
industrial things, from what I see now)

~~~
digikata
The leather is interesting, you sidestep the food regulatory domain and
customer food safety assurance work.

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downandout
For those that can't get past the paywall...

[https://m.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Fa...](https://m.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fstartup-
to-serve-up-chicken-strips-cultivated-from-cells-in-lab-1489570202)

~~~
Jaruzel
Nice trick. Does this via-fb work on all WSJ articles?

~~~
ada1981
Here's a javascript bookmarklet I just made that will break the WSJ paywall
using this trick.

javascript:(function()%7Bwindow.location %3D
("https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2Fl.php%3Fu%3D" %2B
encodeURI(window.location.href))%7D)()

------
Animats
There's also Beyond Meat, which is textured vegetable protein run through a
complicated extruder with hot and cold sections. This gives it most of the
appearance and physical properties of real meat, at least at the burger level.
That's much simpler to make than growing meat from cells.

Beyond Meat ought to be a low-price product, but it isn't.

~~~
shostack
NPR's "How I Built This" podcast had an interesting interview with the founder
on how they got started and the challenges they've faced/face. [1]

[1]
[https://play.google.com/music/m/Dj4goozcgwvlcixxhx2pekacws4?...](https://play.google.com/music/m/Dj4goozcgwvlcixxhx2pekacws4?t=Live_Episode_Beyond_Meat_Ethan_Brown_-
_How_I_Built_This)

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whyenot
At $9,000 per pound of meat, this is not going to be replacing real meat from
animals anytime soon. Chickens are already highly efficient when it comes to
converting feed into edible meat. I'm skeptical that cell culture will ever be
able to come close to the same level of efficiency.

Cell cultures need to be sterile, the sugars, growth factors, and other
nutrients used need to be highly refined. These are not requirements that are
likely to change in the foreseeable future.

~~~
michaelkeenan
> this is not going to be replacing real meat from animals anytime soon

Put your prediction on PredictionBook? It's a great way to keep track of your
predictions, and learn to be calibrated (e.g. to have about 80% of your
predictions-of-80%-likelihood be correct, which doesn't come naturally to
people).

[http://predictionbook.com/](http://predictionbook.com/)

~~~
owenversteeg
Huh, that actually looks pretty cool. Are there any stats on e.x. how often
someone's "80% correct" predictions are actually true?

~~~
lkbm
I don't know if you can view your stats in comparison with the average user,
but once you have some predictions that have ended up right/wrong, you get a
nice little graph showing your calibration. For example:
[http://predictionbook.com/users/gwern](http://predictionbook.com/users/gwern)

Assuming I'm reading it right, the perfectly calibrated guesser would trend
towards a straight line going from 50 on the left to 100 on the right.

They also have a way-too-addictive game where you can practice calibrating
your confidence on a bunch of trivia questions:
[http://predictionbook.com/credence_games/try](http://predictionbook.com/credence_games/try)

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phs318u
Mass production of economical, safe, "vat-grown" meats can't come soon enough.

~~~
pm90
Wonder what would happen to the tons of soybeans/corn currently raised as
animal feed in that case though...

~~~
timthelion
Is that a problem or a good thing. We currently suffer from deforistation due
to agriculture. If those feilds could be reforested that would be a good
thing. Of course pure capitalism doesn't allow for that, but with a little
government intervention (aka, buy up the unneeded feilds) or economic decay
(feilds become abandoned due to their lack of value ;) ) then reforestation
could occure.

Or there could be solar panels put there, or the corn could end up producing
the input to the vat. Or hemp could be grown there which could be used as a
construction material, or ...

------
eddy_chan
One of the points missed here in the discussion thread is that over and above
ethical/moral animal wellbeing concerns we need this as quickly as possible
because antibiotic use in livestock is one of main contributors to antibiotic
resistance.

------
lend000
I've fantasized about the Musk-esque projects I would take on if/when I have
some money, and this is near the top of the list. Cultured animal products,
without the cruelty or inefficiency of raising conscious, normal animals, has
the potential to push humanity forward economically, morally, and healthfully
(couldn't hurt to provide more nutritious options).

I wish that there was more of a focus on milk, because milk production is
arguably the most cruel of them all, and it also seems to be more feasible,
considering it's a homogeneous liquid solution. Granted, synthetic milk is
getting some attention, too: [http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/genetic-engineering-
synthetic-milk-...](http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/genetic-engineering-synthetic-
milk-may-be-next-after-synthetic-meat-1471878)

------
spdionis
Given all the discussion about vegans here, I dread the day when a high
percentage or, god forbid, majority of the population start looking down on
those dirty, pesky, meat-eaters that ruin the environment and "won't anyone
please think of the poor animals?".

Honestly artificial meat sounds like a repulsive idea an i'd never consider
eating it regularly, maybe just taste as a curiosity.

I like my steaks rare, I like the taste of the juice that's left by the blood
in the steak. I like to see the red in the meat.

Some vegans reading this will think I'm a horrible person. Others will think
themselves better people than me because they are not enslaved by meat.
Honestly, I find this much more repulsive than the way animals are treated in
farms.

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xaldir
To me it sound an over-engineered solution to a simple problem.

We need less meat from better raised animals. We need to understand that
animals are an essential part of a balanced agricultural system. We do not
need more food-industry.

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jlebrech
we've reached peak meat, it's impossible to feed the whole population meat
past 10bn due to there not enough land, and if only grass fed meat/etc is
consumed there is only enough land for 1bn.

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jlebrech
why is there no brand of tofu marinated with actual chicken. there's no
inbetween eating meat and not eating, there should be a "% meat" brand.

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jbb123
You know what's a cheaper, better way to make chicken meat? A chicken....

This is a solution in need of problem

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ganfortran
So the selling point is that consumers can be lab rats right now?

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pgnas
More frankenfood. When will we learn ?

~~~
eat_veggies
Learn what, exactly?

