
I Do Not See Myself Represented in Essays on Dating - enkiv2
https://medium.com/@enkiv2/i-do-not-see-myself-represented-in-essays-on-dating-78488462efa6
======
vbtemp
Sounds like this dude is insufferable and exhausting and probably presents
himself as such on his dating profile.

Edit: Before you start writing a treatise on the socio-economics of
contemporary market-based internet dating in the age of diverstity.. just try
the following:

1\. Put up a crisp, clear picture of yourself dressed nicely with a smile. Put
up a second clear picture of you doing some kind of interesting activity
(hiking in the wilderness, doing art, playing with a puppy, etc).

2\. Write a self-description that gives off vibes of you being a generally
positive person, and relatively charming and perhaps a bit funny. If you can't
be charming, you can at least be polite. If you're not funny, you can at least
be lighthearted.

~~~
insickness
> just try the following

This is the typical format when responding to people who have dating issues.
"Sounds like you're too X. You're overthinking things. _Just_ do Y."

Typically, Y is the most mundane, boring straight-forward cliche advice that
everyone and their grandmother gives. It's delivered as if the person with the
problem just never thought to try out the basic advice, like do an interesting
activity or be a positive person.

~~~
vbtemp
I mean, this is a guy whose avatar on Medium is a semi-close up picture taken
with a low-quality somewhat-fisheye webcam with bart simpson faces pasted over
his eyeballs.. Yeah, he's probably lacking some of the basics.

~~~
generalpass
Because, without a doubt, Medium profiles are the way to meet your dream mate.

------
goda90
>For some people, their expansive social network provides a pool of friends
whose friendship can grow into romance; this won’t work for me, since I am too
exhausted from my day job & side hustles to maintain hundreds of close
friendships.

I see this right here as his principle problem. He needs to make time for
getting out of the house and doing things with other people. On top of that,
he needs to make sure that this social time isn't laser focused on finding a
romance, and let interactions with women play out naturally.

~~~
Shaddox
Any tips or advice for this? Preferably tuned for someone who has no friends.

~~~
peterwoerner
My sister shared a tip she uses when moving to a new town. Say yes to every
social engagement no matter what.

I have gotten a lot of leverage out of being religiously involved (not just
showing up Sunday morning, but showing up for workdays and midweek bible
studies), sports leagues when moving to new locations and hosting occasional
dinner "parties"/potlucks.

I like to throw a Christmas in July potluck where I cook a couple of turkeys
(bought at Thanksgiving and freeze until July so they are $0.99/lbs), make
five lbs of mashed potatoes and gravy and rely on guest to fill in the rest of
the details. Then I invite everyone I am friends with or might want to be
friends with, neighbors, coworkers, people I met from sports leagues and
church etc.

~~~
saalweachter
I also recommend just introducing yourself to everyone you can when you move
to a new town or neighborhood. Your physical neighbors, the clerks at the
stores nearby, the bus driver, the postal carrier, etc etc.

People might think you're a bit strange, this day and age, and the simple
introduction isn't going to blossom into any bosom friendships, but it can
transform you from a _stranger_ to a _neighbor_ , and vice versa for the
people around you, so you don't feel like an outcast in your own home.

------
TOGoS
I spent years having an overall pretty bad dating experience very similar to
the author's. But there is one thing I eventually learned that seemed to help.

> if I don’t get an extremely clear indication of interest, I try not to show
> any myself.

If you're a weirdo like myself who has no idea how to flirt, your best bet may
be to simply be as open as you can about your feelings. People generally like
openness, and they like it when people like them. I've told friends that I was
in love with them, and in cases where the feelings weren't mutual they let me
know, and I dropped it. I'm married to the one where they did turn out to be
mutual. :P

------
kop316
From reading this, I wonder if there is a business case for a "faux" dating
business. Before a date, you could get certain opinions on how you look, how
you present yourself, etc. And you could go on some sort of outing with
someone, and at the end, you get feedback on what you did well and what you
didn't do well. This would also give you an opportunity to "practice" your
date skills (for lack of a better term).

Also, being blunt, with dating apps, it really is all about physical
attraction first. If who you are trying to court isn't physically attracted to
your pictures (or think you're trying to hide something), they simply won't
interact with you.

~~~
Miner49er
> From reading this, I wonder if there is a business case for a "faux" dating
> business.

Idk, I think this type of thinking is a major part of the problem. We're
turning everything we can into a profit seeking venture. Even dating itself
has been commodified. We no longer form relationships by talking to the people
around us. Instead, we stare at our phones and swipe left or right. Someone is
able to make a profit that way.

From the article:

"For some people, their expansive social network provides a pool of friends
whose friendship can grow into romance; this won’t work for me, since I am too
exhausted from my day job & side hustles to maintain hundreds of close
friendships."

It seems we need to set aside more time as a society for things like social
activities and forming relationships instead of being productive or generating
someone money.

~~~
kop316
That's fair. I hear this and am thinking that it sounds that the author needs
to have someone to give him an honest opinion on why he hasn't been dating.
And I wonder, what would be the best way for that?

~~~
Miner49er
I think as a business idea it's a good idea. There would actually probably be
a market for it.

And that's the problem.

Instead of having time to make friends who can give us dating advice, we
instead spend our time making money, then paying a business to give us dating
advice. Then we turn to another business to introduce us to potential romantic
partners. Almost everything that we do these days is making someone money,
which is great for the economy, but not so much for happiness. A business
can't replace actual friends and an actual community in a truly fulfilling
way.

------
shusson
> It’s soul-crushing to spend every day of your life making bets you know
> you’re going to lose, but the alternatives are giving up or becoming a
> monster.

I've never used dating apps, but I would assume it attracts a certain type of
people, which this author seems to be complaining about. Why not try a sport
or hobby to meet people?

~~~
metalliqaz
I dunno 'bout you, but I'm a dude, and sports/hobbies would just be a way for
me to meet other dudes. (even assuming I had outgoing social skills)

This kind of advice can be so frustrating to receive. Like when other women
(often old enough to be my mother) suggest meeting females at the supermarket.
Like, what? Nobody wants to be bothered while they are grocery shopping. This
could only work for the top 1% of extremely attractive guys.

The "just meet people" or "just talk to her" narrative doesn't work in modern
life. Everyone is walking around with headphones on and their noses pointing
at a screen. Nobody wants to talk to you. Especially in a romantic context. On
dating apps, there is an implicit romantic intention, so at least a guy is
free to flirt and hit on girls in that context. In other contexts, he has to
worry about attention being interpreted as harassment, on top of the risk of
rejection.

~~~
mcv
> _" The "just meet people" or "just talk to her" narrative doesn't work in
> modern life. Everyone is walking around with headphones on and their noses
> pointing at a screen. Nobody wants to talk to you."_

But that's exactly why hobbies are so great. You get to meet people you
already share a common interest with. They may want to talk to you about that
common interest. While talking, you could discover you have more in common and
just like talking to each other in general. And then you make a date to talk
with just the two of you.

> _" On dating apps, there is an implicit romantic intention, so at least a
> guy is free to flirt and hit on girls in that context. In other contexts, he
> has to worry about attention being interpreted as harassment, on top of the
> risk of rejection."_

That's true, but when that's not working, it's time to try something else.
There's no single solution for everybody.

~~~
metalliqaz
But how do hobbies help tho? Lets say I wanted to improve myself, leave my
introverted hobbies behind and do something more social with my time. You
still need to create relationships with people in order to be invited to do
those hobbies together.

I should add that I am actually married, even though I've never once in my
life ever hit on a woman. I got snatched up entirely by accident. So I've
grappled with these issues but they aren't relevant to me anymore.

~~~
mcv
You can go to meetups or join a club. Or join an online forum and agree to
meet with people there. But even introverted hobbies can be done together.
Roleplaying is popular with introverts yet done in a group.

------
mcv
I was like that. Actually, I'm worse. I never got laid before I was 32. I've
always been very respectful of boundaries, didn't want to impose, and due to
social awkwardness, that meant I had a hard time approaching women. And to be
honest, I don't really have an easy solution; in the end I met my wife and
we've been happily married for 12 years now.

For a while I did give up. Particularly in university, I wasn't very
interested in the dating game. I did have the occasional crush, didn't know
how to act on it, and when I did, it generally amounted to nothing. After 30,
I decided to try this online dating, went on lots of dates, most of them
amounted to nothing, then I met a woman I fell madly in love with, and she
apparently with me, but we soon realised it wasn't going to work: she smoked,
I hated smoking. I wanted children, she didn't. We broke up, and I soon met my
wife on that same site. And I believe she was the one to contact me first,
which definitely helps.

That site that got me two hits in a row, wasn't a normal commercial dating
site, though. It was really cheap, low threshold, aimed specifically at
Christians, and not just at dating, but also at friendship. And it supported
blogging. Maybe that lowered the threshold somehow. I don't know. But I've
become a strong believer in non-commercial, focused on special interest,
dating-but-also-friendship sites.

For one thing, commercial dating sites are mostly scams. OKCupid used to love
exposing those scams, but I believe they've been bought by the biggest dating
scammer, so they're likely as useless as the others now.

Ultimately, all you really need, is a way to meet new people with similar
interests to yours. Not identical, but it helps to have some common interest,
whether it's a hobby, religion, activism, or whatever. It doesn't have to be a
dating site, it can be a real-life activity. It can be an online game (I know
a couple that met on World of Warcraft). Make sure you can talk about
something other than dating. See if you can talk to them about other stuff
than dating. If it turns out you can talk to each other, ask her out for a
coffee or some other small thing. Or maybe do something hobby related
together, see how that works out. I suppose you've got to become more
confident at making the first move if you don't want to be totally dependent
on the whims of the other, but the move doesn't have to be aimed straight at
dating.

Though to be honest, I don't know how much my advice is worth. People like me
never get a lot of dating experience; once we find the right person, we stick
with them.

~~~
archagon
Out of curiosity, what was the site?

~~~
mcv
A Dutch site: funkyfish.nl.

------
orthoxerox
Women call people like him "nice guys", and that's not a compliment.

~~~
Pfhreak
This meme needs to die.

------
homonculus1
The hacker ethos is "It doesn't matter whether the subject is popular,
everybody who's interested is interesting".

But the dating ethos is "Men with badly-groomed beards who write harem anime
reviews don't get dates". There's just no way around it, that's the problem
here. Having a house and job are attractive characteristics, in the same sense
that a functioning set of limbs is, but they don't set you apart. It's the
personal details that matter.

~~~
jjdredd
IMO owning a house in early thirties is pretty good. It should also be
attractive for those people who want to start a family.

~~~
homonculus1
It's really good actually but it's not a differentiating factor at the dating
stage. Dating is an emotional competition, marriage introduces practical
considerations. You need to get past the likeability filter before any woman
is even asking herself whether she'd settle down with you.

If you present yourself as marriage material without succeeding at being
dating material, you're selecting for economic opportunists ("gold-diggers").

------
awinter-py
His point about the missing middle in dating apps is valid feedback about
dating apps and all algo-based matching platforms (including news aggregators
like this one, although in the case of aggregators it may be desirable).

Designing non-WTA systems is really hard

One system that gets around it is the matching algorithm for medical
residency, which is designed to match every student with a space. But (1) this
is probably not appropriate for dating, and (2) professional licensing has its
own problems.

~~~
dri_ft
WTA?

~~~
simulate
WTA probably means winner-takes-all in this context.

------
moretai
What about people who don't want to have friends? I have had "friends", people
I considered my brother. A person I loved. But in due time, it all feels like
they were using me. That I was just a toy for them to pass the time. Someone
they could exert their demons out without judgement. Be the space that no one
else would give them. I had boat loads of fun, but I never really felt cared
for ever. The only people who ever cared for me where my parents.

~~~
mewpmewp2
You either change your mindset or stay alone forever. There is no other
option. Unless you are a suave lone wolf in which case you could also be fine,
but it seems like you are focused on the negative things that happened to you
while you should really be improving yourself.

------
klyrs
Opinionated advice, ymmv.

Get off dating apps; they're toxic. Use Meetup, take a pottery class, a yoga
class, join a hiking group, a book club. And crucially, don't expect any of
that to yield a romantic partnership. Make friends. Go to their weddings,
parties, etc. There, you might meet women who are looking for a guy like you.
Or maybe one of your friendships will blossom into more.

When I was single and presenting as male, I found myself in a similar
conundrum. I found success in "playing hard to get," eg., rather than
immediately biting at every flirt, I'd respond with low-key flirts and not
escalate for some time. After I got enough consistent-seeming signs, I'd ask
somebody out long before I got attached to the idea. "Hey, you wanna get lunch
some time?" "Uh, do you mean a date? I've got a partner." "Oh, haha, yeah I
meant a date, no worries." When you can do that without feeling devastated,
you're on the right track.

------
Mathnerd314
It's old but there's a list of bars etc. here, if Tinder etc. are that bad:
[https://www.connecticutmag.com/the-connecticut-story/the-
sav...](https://www.connecticutmag.com/the-connecticut-story/the-savvy-
singles-guide-to-
connecticut/article_be536921-6669-5ec4-a6ad-1d830e4664e4.html)

------
Semaphor
I found OkCupid (where I met my now-wife) extremely easy to get to know
people. Tons of filters and search options, the most amazing matching
algorithm of any site (you answer questions from "Don’t agree at all" to
"Agree 100%", then you can say what you want your match to answer and finally
how important their answer matching is; this enables way more than more naive
sites). You can mark-up any word on your profile as a keyword.

And people reply. Back then I was pretty overweight but almost every woman I
messaged replied, including those with the scary "rarely replies" badge. The
few times I asked they said it’s because most men who write them either just
said "Hi", "Great tits", or showed they didn’t actually read their profile
first.

But this was all several years ago, so maybe things got worse. I know nowadays
the push to pay them is a lot more heavy-handed and OkStats is gone.

~~~
eloisius
Okc has gone to speed swiping format like everyone else. You can only message
someone you match with now, which is unfortunate because you used to be able
to demonstrate some kind of attractiveness other than initial appearances. I
get that women have a problem filtering the deluge of low-quality messages
otherwise, but I wonder if there isn’t a better way to meter the problem than
mutual swiping.

------
stanfordkid
Seems like he lacks basic social skills and expects women to date him because
he owns his own house. He feels guilty and "like a monster" hitting on or
asking women out because of this thought process. He himself said he had been
successful in the past -- why not continue that and make yourself happy?

~~~
generalpass
> Seems like he lacks basic social skills and expects women to date him
> because he owns his own house. He feels guilty and "like a monster" hitting
> on women because of this un-empathetic, objectifying, and entitled thought
> process.

What if his brief statement about financial stability is to deal with claims
that he needs to first take care of himself because women aren't interested in
highly unstable men who can't take care of themselves?

What if, no matter what he states, people immediately jump to conclusions
which require assumptions with no evidence and include quotes that he didn't
make?

------
mcnamaratw
There's a traditional low-tech solution to this problem, used by generations
of nerds. Step 1, hang out in real life with a bunch of guys. Have fun with
them. (If you're really sucked into your work, this step could take a while.)
Step 2 is that women will appear and you will date them.

------
projectramo
Not that I am an expert, but like (I assume) most people I put in my time in
the dating mines.

And this is my observation about people who have this complaint: the vast
majority of couples are aesthetically matched. You might be hoping for a
certain aesthetic. You have to match that. The easiest way to do this is to
start eating healthy and working out. By working out, I don't mean an
occasional job, but the heavy stuff: lifting, crossfit etc. It goes without
saying you should not injure yourself.

This small "trick" \-- working out -- will have a dramatic effect on your
dating life.

------
whateverthisis
Online dating has many problems, but not all failures to obtain a positive
outcome from online dating are the fault of the system. It is easy to blame
the system and more difficult to accept that the system is not at fault in
some situations. You can't simultaneously reject the current societal dating
standards but also expect that a system based on those same standards will
work for you. Given this, might it make more sense to find a method of dating
that is more in line with the societal standards that you seek to live by?

------
xwowsersx
I think the problems may be that 1) he blames the patriarchy 2) he doesn't see
himself as a catch

I know men are in a difficult position because they want to err on the side of
caution and not make a move when it could be seen as a violation/unwanted, but
these attitudes (blaming the patriarchy, etc) are projected to the would-be
partner and it's probably a turn-off. Find someone you can build trust with
where every interaction between the two of you isn't interpreted through some
larger cultural lens.

------
throwlaplace
I read most of the post (unlike others in here) and his issue is distinct from
that of many others on dating apps (or at least it is according to his self-
reported behavior).

it is probably not relatable to most here (because he's bending over backwards
to be egalitarian and most on here lean the other way) so I'll just respond in
case he ends up reading this.

I share many of your concerns and sensitivities around feminism and autonomy.
despite being arguably just as sensitive as you are (according to feedback
from former partners) I do well on apps and in dating. how? I'm assertive and
aggressive but I get explicit consent at every escalation. And if you think
I'm exaggerating I am not. Evey escalation. now obviously I'm not tactless - I
do not have multi form contracts that I ask for signatures on. I simply check
in and we have a short, always interesting, conversation about boundaries and
trajectory and all that. most of the time everything goes as expected but I
have been rejected (which is also how I'm sure the way I'm doing it is working
- because when feel free to say no).

it works very well. I have deep meaningful dates (that turn into relationships
often).

aside from that I'll say, from the photos of you online, you're not doing
yourself any favors. I think I could help you but I don't know you personally.
I have toyed with the idea of starting a consulting service that taught men
how to present themselves such that they're attractive.

------
harimau777
Not directly related, but the biggest obstacle that I find I face is that
people who share my religious background tend to be more conservative while,
in terms of lifestyle and worldview, I tend to be more progressive. I find
that the women who I am interested in rarely share my faith while the women
who share my faith rarely share any of my interests.

------
MayeulC
What would be the optimal way of finding partners, or simply people you would
like to spend time with, among 7+ billion people?

Here's my answer* : train an A.I to "flirt"/"have conversations" with others
A.I. Use reinforcement learning to tailor the A.I. to specific users.

Nice, everyone now has their own personal I.A. that can go on dates with other
personal A.I. Thousands of them per second, if needs be. If the system works
well enough that A.I.s "get along" as well as their human models would (/would
not), you have found a very nice way to perform a "double blind" matching
platform. Feed back the results after you go on a real date! "A.I." here could
be anywhere on the spectrum of a simple regexp, to neural networks, to AGI.

Of course, in my experience, shared experience is a big part of what makes
relationships (non romantic, and prob. otherwise), while previous experiences
or interests are a way to discover things to do together (or recall shared
experiences), so this can't replace getting out and sharing activities.

* TBH, that's just shower thoughts, but could turn into a fun research/week-end/startup/fediverse project (or just a writing prompt for a novel).

Edit: split this post in two different ones.

~~~
MayeulC
_Yes, I could use some dating advice as well_. But I find this post a bit
self-pitying. Even if I find some of myself in the words expressed by the
author, it is unreasonable to always ask the other party to do the first move.
For now, I sort of stopped caring, and see flirting as a social sports of
sorts (hone my social skills). Lots of missed opportunities (I generally don't
know how to behave if things start going too well), lots of fun and new
friends as well :)

Edit: I sort of realize that I am catching up with the social interaction I
didn't have at (high) school (too young, different countries, different
interests such as tech stuff). Other people generally do the opposite and
catch up on the skill side later. Either way, I'm still learning, as always.

------
lgeorget
Maybe he should try speed dating. In that kind of context, it's easy to start
a conversation and not awkward to show interest in someone. And it's more
personal than getting to know someone through an app. But maybe it doesn't
attract to kind of people he'd be interested in.

------
_bxg1
> I’m no catch, but there are probably a half dozen people I know who I would
> date & who would date me if communication opened up. (I know this
> empirically: there was a short period in college where I hit on everyone,
> and while I stopped because I realized I was probably making a lot of people
> uncomfortable, I ended up having a casual thing going with about ten young
> women simultaneously — and this was back when I was broke, out of shape, and
> the special kind of dumb that only college students can afford to be.)

It sounds, friend, like you have a misguided (outsized) sense of nobility. You
aren't wrong about what women put up with in our society, but you also can't
write off _any initiative by you at all_ as dangerous. Your own anecdote shows
that when you put yourself out there, plenty of people have interest in you
and don't feel the need to run for the hills. It's admirable how hard you're
trying not to be a part of the problem, but don't make yourself a martyr.
After a certain point, it isn't helping anybody.

I'm sure striking the right balance is much more difficult for someone who has
trouble picking up on social cues, but it's just a matter of trying it out and
learning the curve. Maybe you could practice with or ask advice from women you
know platonically? You said you're friends with most of your exes- maybe they
can give you insight into how you came off in those relationships?

It's a big and complicated world out there. It's good to try and be sensitive
to others, but you can't let yourself get totally buried by worry about how
you'll affect them. You just have to do your best, and then apologize if you
mess up. And that's okay.

You have it in you to grow past this and find a companion. Everyone deserves
to be loved. Best of luck.

~~~
mewpmewp2
It is as simple as you ask a woman out who you are interested in. If she
ignores you or says no, you move on. If she keeps saying yes to your date
invitations it means she likes you. Avoiding or being scared of making the
first move is very unattractive and shows extreme lack of confidence and
confidence is the most attractive trait.

~~~
throwlaplace
>It is as simple as you ask a woman out who you are interested in

No it's not that simple. Some women are propositioned so often that it becomes
a trial just to be out. Time and place are important too.

~~~
hombre_fatal
I rarely admit this to people, but when I was 19, I paid $700 to go to a
weekend "PUA convention" like what Tom Cruise caricaturizes in the movie
Magnolia.

The eye-opening part for me was when we broke out in small groups, went
downtown in Austin, and the group leader (employees of the event) cold-
approached women with a level of success I only thought was possible in Hugh
Grant movies and reserved for nobody other than Hugh Grant in real life. And
my group leader was a 39yo bald guy.

Most of the "wisdom" around approaching women are simply superstition and
self-sabotage. "No, there's no way that could work so I won't even try."

~~~
_bxg1
See, this kind of thing seems like it would _actually_ start to enter the
territory that the OP is terrified of. Confidence is essential, yes, but you
can be confident and also be considerate. Setting aside the plethora of things
wrong with a "PUA convention", your group leader probably made lots of women
very uncomfortable. There's a difference between taking initiative in a
context where women are actively looking for those kinds of interactions, and
taking initiative randomly on the street.

~~~
hombre_fatal
I think your post demonstrates my point of sabotage. You took a general
explanation of a scenario ("guy talks to women with great success") and
assumed the worst, that this guy must have made women uncomfortable by
approaching them, as if discomfort is an intrinsic part of human interaction.

If you trot out this self-sabotage enough, you won't even leave your house
because you might inconvenience someone by taking up the sidewalk tile they
might've wanted to occupy. Yet this is the kind of thought process you see in
men all the time when it comes to women and dating. As if women are anti-
social automatons that don't actually like meeting new people much less single
men who find them attractive and interesting. Or maybe they're just putting on
their makeup and high-heels to meet everyone but you with your +discomfort
debuff aura.

I recommend trying to not just talk to women in the wild, but anyone. Just
strike up some quick convo instead of assuming you're making them
uncomfortable.

I think you've come into this comments section with quite a lot of baggage
about how you think these things need to play out.

~~~
_bxg1
You misunderstand; I don't have any trouble with human interaction, including
strangers.

But I've heard many women describe being exhausted by getting hit on
constantly, in situations where they really just don't care and just want to
get their coffee, or get to work, or be out in the world for literally any
other reason. If you're at a bar or on a dating app: go for it. In that
context, people are actively soliciting that kind of interaction. There's an
implied social contract: "we are here to flirt". You may still be rejected,
but you're invited to put yourself out there. In most other contexts, jumping
straight into romantic interactions out of the blue is probably going to be
unwanted. Being friendly to all people is great, sure. But read the room.

And, from others' anecdotes, those annoying interactions are the _best_ case
scenario. Some (a minority, but not so small it doesn't matter) men don't
handle rejection well. They get persistent, or pushy, or sometimes even irate
or violent. Even if it only happens one out of one hundred times, it's enough
to put someone on edge when a stranger approaches them and compliments their
hair. Just another reason to keep unprompted amorous interactions within the
appropriate contexts.

------
mewpmewp2
It seems like a victim complex to me. If his mindset is like that no wonder he
is not getting any.

------
deogeo
> in western society (and in some eastern ones too), women who directly reject
> men are subject to male rage & women who seem too enthusiastic are subject
> to slut-shaming (which can also result in violence).

Perhaps he would have more luck dating in a less patriarchal society, with
higher gender equality?

