
The Etiquette of the Victorian Ballroom: Twenty Tips for Single Gentlemen - Avawelles
https://mimimatthews.com/2017/05/08/the-etiquette-of-the-victorian-ballroom-twenty-tips-for-single-gentlemen/
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aaronharnly
#1 (“When you receive an invitation to a ball, answer it immediately.”) is
really important. I can't tell you how many relationships (friendship,
professional, or romantic) I've screwed up simply by not being a prompt
responder. In the times, places, and relationships I've made prompt-responding
a priority, everything goes better.

~~~
squarefoot
That advice was written when immediate answer meant writing a letter by hand
and give it to someone who would ride his horse to the host. These days an
immediate answer can be 10 seconds or less, so I'm not sure being really
immediate would be a good practice. Fast yes, immediate... not sure.

~~~
joezydeco
An answer can be had in 10 seconds or less, but you still need to pull teeth
to get people to respond to an invitation. Email, evite, SMS, whatever. You
will still get a certain % of people that won't reply until you nag them for
the fourth time.

And then you'll _still_ get a % of no-replies that show up at the event
unannounced.

~~~
Jaruzel
This is really something that annoys me in the 21st century; that despite a
formal invite (FB Event, email, even olde-worldy paper invite) people feel
it's still OK to either hedge their bets right up to the last minute, or
simply not show up even if they had previously rsvp'd to the contrary.

Most people these days simply have no manners.

~~~
switch007
An alternative stance to take could be to not expect people to behave how you
want them to and just be happy if people turn up. (You're free to do what you
like of course !)

Someone may be on Facebook just to keep a contact list, not to use it. Someone
may not have turned up because their mother was in hospital. Maybe they were
about to RSVP but then their kid fell over, then it was dinner time etc. Maybe
some people just to prefer not to pre-plan everything in advance.

~~~
joezydeco
Try planning a wedding, conference, bus trip, or dinner party where an exact
head count helps, if it's not completely mandatory.

You _could_ be an ass and say "sorry, no RSVP, no entry", but most people will
_try_ to show a modicum of etiquette more than the guests and accommodate the
fools somehow.

------
huehehue
Man, I think it'd be so cool if etiquette was a core class in grade school
(perhaps stripped of some 1850s sensibilities).

Most of the upper-class people I know would sooner go to the club and dry-hump
a stranger than throw a cocktail/dinner party (much less waltz). I'm all for
having fun and using a salad fork to eat dessert, but I'd be interested to see
the world with like 25% less depravity.

~~~
throwaway18917
I see this a lot on Hacker News and I really don't understand why. Who cares
if people "go to the club and dry-hump a stranger"? What if I like cocktail
parties AND clubs? Where do I fall in your moral binary? Furthermore, what's
wrong with your so-called depravity? You do realize that you just said you
wanted manners without 1850s sensibilities and then proceeded to invoke those
same 1850s sensibilities, right?

In other words, come down off your high horse; let people like what they like.

~~~
huehehue
Woah I was not trying to make a personal attack, so I don't think hating on me
from a throwaway is really called for. I know that a lot of people like doing
those things because I hang out with them and often do them too.

You _really_ got me wrong. I was trying to open a dialogue on shifting norms,
not assume a position of moral superiority.

~~~
VLM
"I was trying to open a dialogue on shifting norms"

Why can't you just LARP for fun? People do stuff like civil war encampments
and renn faires because they're huge fun. A LARP club that gets dressed up and
dances to the waltz sounds like an unusual, interesting time.

(Edited to add, I've not been to a SCA event but would I be correct in
predicting there might be a waltz at a SCA event?)

~~~
CapitalistCartr
There's dancing, but its Rennaisance; the Waltz isn't period.

------
viewer5
I'd like to suggest that anyone who hasn't tried it, try and find beginner-
level ballroom classes nearby. It's a ton of fun.

~~~
Sharlin
Any social partner dance, really. "Ballroom dancing" may evoke mental images
of old-fashioned dances in a formal setting, but there's a huge selection of
different dances, some very modern and casual. West Coast Swing [1] is my
passion. Its roots are in Lindy Hop, the grandfather of swing dances (and
itself very fun to dance) but it's modern and smooth and sexy and mostly
danced to contemporary popular music.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Swing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Swing)

~~~
gerry_shaw
+1 on WCS. My only regret was not taking dancing lessons early. Guys, one of
the easiest things to improve self esteem and to have fun at social occasions
like weddings is to learn some basic dance steps. It's not as hard as it seems
and the basic classes do assume you can't dance at all.

------
deepGem
Don’t Presume on an Acquaintance

I really like this advice. You dance and you leave. No phone number exchange,
no text messages, no selfies, no follow ups.

~~~
thedevil
In my early 20s, I used to meet girls at a country swing dancing place. I was
really nerdy and this gave me a chance to practice interacting with women and
I got quite a few dates off of it.

Some of my fellow nerds tried to do the same thing but they made this big
mistake: they'd think just because the girl danced with them, they could try
for a phone number. It would make the girls really uncomfortable. Other people
would see that, and it made it harder to get another girl to dance with.

I took a different strategy: I danced with any girl, made them smile (I was
good at dancing with beginners and I recycled the same few jokes over and
over), and then move on. Sometimes the girl would show interest and that's
when I'd go for a phone number.

And if the girl wasn't interested (vast majority of the time), they'd still
tell their friends how fun I am, or other people would see the whole
interaction and I'd quickly feel like a rockstar.

~~~
geebee
That's a good observation. A lot of guys ask how to meet women (well everyone
asks how to meet everyone). The key is to engage in social activities where
you expand your social circle.

Here's the thing - most activities that expand your social circle are _not_
actually focused on finding a date, because most people are paired up and.or
otherwise aren't looking for a date. As a result, you need to engage sincerely
in the activity itself, and not try to romanticize (which is the mildest form
of what you shouldn't do) every encounter.

Ballroom dancing, tennis leagues (such as mixed doubles), and other activities
that mix men and women are good choices. But yes, in most of these cases, the
people involved not only won't be looking for a date, and it's extremely
important not to treat them as events where people are looking for a date.
They aren't, and people involved in them may in fact resent the implication
that this is the primary purpose for their participation.

Ironically, that's why they work so well for expanding your social circle. If
they were about dating, 90% of the people involved in them wouldn't be
involved, and the network effect would collapse.

Also - once people know and like you, _of course_ they don't mind that you are
single and would are interested in meeting single people in the same spot.
There is a time honored tradition of introducing people to each other under
exactly these circumstances.

------
hashkb
> At a public ball, it is exceptional for a gentleman to offer to escort a
> lady home: she is pretty sure to refuse, unless ____ but we need not supply
> that blank!

Hasn't changed.

------
throw2016
I love these pieces that give an insight into another time. There is a certain
old world charm to this. There is a lot of encouragement to to be thoughtful
and put others first. This is what gracious means. And that's timeless.

But its also about a context that may not be common anymore. Our standards of
behavior are much more laid back. I suspect its very rare for most people now
be among strangers in a formal-informal context without friends in tow and in
groups this reduces the overall level of formality. The risk of overt
graciousness out of context is it might come off as affected.

------
beefman
Reading historical advice, I find I must continually remind myself that it
isn't descriptive. All these things happened with some regularly or they
wouldn't have needed the advice!

------
riazrizvi
> “At a public ball, it is exceptional for a gentleman to offer to escort a
> lady home: she is pretty sure to refuse, unless ____ but we need not supply
> that blank!”

On the contrary, you need.

~~~
pjc50
In that climate (and frankly still present in a lot of places), it's a major
character slur to imply an unmarried woman going home with strange men.

(as mentioned at #11, this is the time when the waltz was still a bit racey
and mildly controversial)

~~~
SimbaOnSteroids
123, 123, 123.

The thing Victorian teenage day dreams were made of.

~~~
viewer5
I'll bet you're just thinking of the box-step (the super basic step where you
basically walk in a box shape).

If I'm not misremembering my lessons--to do some of the turns properly, the
woman has to be essentially straddling the man's upper leg. It was a pain to
do some of those with partners who weren't comfortable with that kind of
contact.

~~~
SimbaOnSteroids
I believe one of the defining characteristics of the Waltz is that its done in
3/4 time.

~~~
viewer5
Right, I just mean that the way you phrased it sounded like you were picturing
a super vanilla, middle-school-dance-esque box-stepping couple (in 3/4 time).

All's I meant is I can see how waltz was considered risque; as a sheltered
guy, I was caught really off-guard when our instructor positioned my partner
and I in the way I described.

------
keehun

      #8 Don’t Whisper to the Ladies.
      
      “To affect an air of secrecy or mystery when conversing
      in a ballroom is a piece of impertinence for which no
      lady of delicacy will thank you.”
    

Nowadays, don't most people find whispering in a loud setting a kind of
intimate thing from partner to partner? I personally find it has the effect of
making a big event smaller, more about "us."

~~~
chmod775
It's more about shouting directly into each others ears over loud music.

~~~
jdironman
Do that thing I like...

"DO YOU WANNA GET A DRINK!?"

~~~
throwaway18917
Fun fact: if it's ridiculously loud somewhere, just cover your ears (and have
your conversation partner cover theirs), and you'll be able to speak to each
other at a fairly normal volume. Works great for concerts and clubs
especially.

~~~
jdironman
Noise Reduction, closer range. Makes sense I guess.

------
teh_klev
For a slightly more modern and irreverent take on social customs I can
thoroughly recommend obtaining a copy of J.P. Donleavy's _" The Unexpurgated
Code: A Complete Manual of Survival & Manners"_:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unexpurgated_Code](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unexpurgated_Code)

------
11thEarlOfMar
Reminds me of this tidbit on etiquette from the 1940s, "Junior Prom". "Let's
follow these students as they go on a date and see if their manners have
anything to do with their fun."

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7sHCAG69Wg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7sHCAG69Wg)

------
jordigh
Speed dating in the 19th century. :-)

One of the most interesting artifacts of the time is this:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance_card](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance_card)

Women had to keep a careful list of the men that they would dance with during
that night, each lasting about five minutes.

------
ggggtez
It's important to remember that these sources are still only advice/self-help
books. The authors may have had limited practical experience, for all we know.

------
dmckeon
Consider how many of these tips might apply to the dance of entrepreneurs
looking for funding, and VCs looking for their next investment.

------
noobermin
How true half of this is today. And thank god how I had to follow near to zero
of it to end up happy with my SO.

------
pjmlp
I would say some of the tips are still relevant in modern dance halls (Tango,
Walz, Salsa, ....).

------
exabrial
Ironically... these all apply to the modern dance floor at most places you can
two-step or swing these days (yes we two-step out in the midwest)

------
ElijahLynn
This soo reminds me of Don in The Rosie Project. It is what Don what have read
and followed to perfection.

------
JustSomeNobody
In summation:

Be respectful.

Don't make assumptions.

An interesting read, nevertheless.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
Also: it is your responsibility not to make other people look bad.

I found that interesting. Much of what was recommended was telling the young
man to be very careful not to accidentally make anybody feel embarrassed or
shamed.

~~~
hammock
That's the core of etiquette... Making others in your presence feel
comfortable even at your own expense.

Respect is a separate matter (as anyone who has experienced someone who
doesn't like them in the south can attest)

~~~
DanielBMarkham
Agreed. It is also easily forgotten (or perhaps never taught) in the modern
world.

Somebody with good manners always make you feel special and takes care of your
needs ahead of theirs. Somehow or another, a ton of people grew up thinking
manners and etiquette were about where the forks go at a formal dinner.

~~~
hammock
Yes. Even in the dinner setting case, the forks have a place so that you can
feel confident in what you're doing no matter whose house you sit down in. But
good hosts also know, if they see their guest start drinking the contents of
the finger bowl, the host does the same :)

~~~
JackFr
I had heard the expression 'drinking out of the finger bowl' many times as the
epitome of uncouth, uncultured behavior. Finally around the age of 30, I found
myself for the first time at a dinner where there were _actual_ finger bowls,
I could not stop myself and had to pretend to drink out of it.

(But interestingly, I also discovered they're quite useful. The meal featured
a bit of a messy seafood course which required eating with your hands, and
they allowed a bit of a wash up at the table.)

~~~
hammock
On the flip side of this, growing up eating whole lobster in Maine most of my
childhood, the first time I ordered it at a 5-star, haute cuisine restaurant I
was extraordinarily disappointed to find out they had already shelled it
(albeit beautifully, perfectly) in the kitchen before serving it to me.

~~~
Symbiote
That is disappointing.

I was very pleased, the first time I ate at a similar restaurant, to be given
all kinds of tools with which to attack the large pile of seafood.

(This was in Copenhagen, but two anecdotes isn't enough to generalize.)

------
draw_down
Make sure to dance quietly! Sounds like a blast.

~~~
bacongobbler
Still happens today on modern social dance floors (read: not the nightclub).
You don't want to be stomping your feet on every step unless it's intentional
(such as an inflection on a certain part of a song). Otherwise, you're quiet
with the feet.

It's actually a lot of fun to be graceful! Quiet with the feet, loud with the
dance.

------
SimbaOnSteroids
>Just do it

Yes you can!

~~~
dang
Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to HN?

We detached this comment from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14291182](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14291182)
and marked it off-topic.

------
Odenwaelder
M'lady! _tips fedora_

------
mmjaa
A lot of sexist nonsense in this list - I hope it won't be overlooked. We have
most definitely moved on from these primitive days as a species ..

~~~
aklemm
Surely we all understand what you're pointing out, but the idea of looking
back at this is to see what we've forgotten and to learn something of value
from the past, which surely does have a lot to offer. If we ignore the wisdom
of the past because there are so many mistakes included, we throw the baby out
with the bath water.

