
From Graduate School Student to Amazon Warehouse Janitor - davesailer
https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/12/from-graduate-student-to-amazon-warehouse-janitor.html
======
rayiner
This is the dark underbelly of education/academia. Selling worthless dreams to
young people on credit. If we didn’t have a perverse glorification of
education in this country, we’d give the education industry the scrutiny and
malign it deserves. (We go after pawn shops and pay day lenders but at least
they provide valuable liquidity.)

And there is also an oft-missed social justice aspect to all this. Professors
and teachers are disproportionately white (and by definition, college-
educated):
[https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=61](https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=61).
We sell education as a way to overcome the legacy of systematic oppression of
certain minority groups, but we are actually creating quite a large wealth
transfer from disadvantaged minorities to college-educated white people. And
members of these minority groups aren't seeing the pay-off from paying their
tithes to the educational establishment. As the author notes in the article:

> A 2014 study from the Center for Economic and Policy Research revealed that
> an incredible 55.9 percent of black recent college graduates were
> “underemployed” and working in a position that didn’t require a four-year
> college degree.

~~~
jnbiche
The worst are expensive "professional" master's degree programs in careers
that seem like they'd be very promising in terms of job opportunities at first
glance: public health, public administration, biotechnology, legal
interpreting, etc. I'm afraid that many grad programs in data science have the
potential to join this group.

They all seem like "responsible" careers that someone worried about making a
living could turn to. And then these graduate programs make expensive and
misleading glossy brochures and web sites to entice students into a career
where jobs are plentiful and well-paid.

Well, you can turn those programs into a decent job, but you have to play your
cards _just right_. You have to choose the exact subfield that is hot right
now, and pick up skills that aren't necessarily taught at the grad program.
And you have to get into the exact right internship, or get lucky enough to
snag one of the dwindling number of government jobs in your field. But no one
at these schools bothers to tell the students these things. So in the end,
relatively few graduates end up working in the field they studied.

But they do keep the $50,000-100,000 in debt they accumulated.

~~~
dragonwriter
> And you have to get into the exact right internship, or get lucky enough to
> snag one of the dwindling number of government jobs in your field.

There aren't a dwindling number of government jobs in public administration or
public health.

> But no one at these schools bothers to tell the students these things.

Several schools' in those fields big draw is their internship/fellowship
programs and connections to key employers in the public or private sector, and
these things are heavily marketed as important.

> So in the end, relatively few graduates end up working in the field they
> studied.

A number of professional degrees are competitive advantage in related and even
distant fields as well as their exact field, so that's not a sign of not
getting a significant career advantage from the degree.

~~~
selimthegrim
Columbia? Sure. Tulane or Wash U? Uhhhhh...

------
wallflower
The book “The $12 Million Stuffed Shark: The Curious Economics of Contemporary
Art" ballparks some figures on the Power Law distribution of artist incomes in
a global city.

Making a living as an independent creative is really hard. Marketing through
channels like Instagram could help (10k true fans). Even creatives who get to
be “creative” by way of being in an agency where they “apply” their creativity
don’t have an easy life (constant deadlines and stress). Being creative on a
deadline can definitely take the joy out of creating.

So many people want to be a writer. There are tons of writer
workshops/retreats. Usually they feature writers who have achieved some level
of success. But the reality is that someone like Kristen Roupenian who got a
book deal out of her “Cat Person” story that went viral was very lucky. The
right story at the right cultural moment.

> “40k artists resident in London (about same number in NYC)

For London and NYC each:

75 superstar artists (>$1M/yr income)

300 mature, successful artists (>$100k/yr income)

5,000 part time artists (need to supplement their income)"

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dvt
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that the argument that only
"marketable" skills are valuable is a farce. The United States is a cultural
black hole and this article exemplifies why. Engineering, the STEM fields, and
tech are also cultural wastelands. This is a _major_ issue for me -- and one
of the reasons I'm trying to get out of tech.

Even if we ignore the fact that some of our greatest thinkers often had "non-
marketable" proclivities (Newton was also an Anglican theologian, Einstein
worked as a patent clerk, Bertrand Russell wrote poetry, C.S Lewis was an
author, etc.), there's something deeply human about being able to put pen to
paper. But, for whatever reason, we are losing sight of why poetry, music, and
art is valuable. This is a wide-ranging problem and no one seems interested in
fixing it.

~~~
fullshark
> But, for whatever reason, we are losing sight of why poetry, music, and art
> is valuable.

Everyone thinks those things are valuable, but due to nearly costless
distribution of media the very best in their field can distribute their art to
the entire world and we can enjoy it. It's a market that lends itself to
superstar economics now, like spectator sports stars.

As a consumer of art, it has never been easier to enjoy and appreciate it.

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matt4077
I remember (mis)using the local bookstore as my personal library during my
childhood (late 80s, early 90s). The proprietor was somewhat in the mold of
this author, and I learned a lot both from her as well as other patrons who
stopped by, chatting, drinking copious amounts of free coffee, and buying
books. In other words: it was one of those places that served far more
purposes than just the economic one of distributing letters on dead trees.

Then Amazon came along, and it was obviously far better, in many respects:
suddenly, I had easy access to foreign language books, for one thing.

But, less obviously, other benefits were lost. Mostly those that escape
measurement by econometrics. Not just in terms of squeezing all there is out
of people that are suddenly the subject of the economic force of an employer
the size of Amazon. Small stores, within walking distance, i. e. the
traditional "downtown" is gone, and with it all chances of surreptitiously
meeting anyone from the mayor to your neighbour. It's all online now, or
sometimes a big-box store outside of town within a barren cultural desert of
parking lots and lots.

But the argument is hard to make: why (and how) should anyone forgo cheap
prices, or the comfort of intensely personal transport, for my vague yearning
of community? And so it will continue, the better future, as imagined by Kafka
and brought to the big screen in Wall-E.

(presented here mostly as an alternative to the inevitable gloating of STEM
majors over the failure of others to find a place in the world catering to
_their_ strengths and interests.)

~~~
neetdeth
Regarding that last point: It carries the assumption that people in STEMMFT
(science technology engineering math medicine finance and the trades) do not
have strengths and talents in other areas that they set aside to pursue their
careers.

Our society seems to have no problem taking a rational approach to something
like, for example, basketball. Unless you are one of a few truly phenomenal
people with the talent and drive to succeed professionally, playing basketball
is a hobby. Full stop. You can count on coaches to (mostly) objectively advise
you as to whether or not you are one of those people.

Not so, the liberal arts. What was intended as a program of enculturation for
the children of the wealthy elite has turned into a monster that devours the
children of the working class, who are mostly not exceptional, and for whom an
arts degree is an expensive diversion at best.

------
exabrial
> bachelor’s degree in English, getting a master’s degree in creative

I think people need to do a lot more research into career earnings and job
prospects. These degrees have never paid well, which is unfortunate for the
subject of the article.

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Topgamer7
So many English grads, so few jobs.

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smartstakestime
1) theres a reason we have the phrase "starving artist" ... its a feast of
famine career. Talk about a degree meaning little. Liberal arts is the last
place a degree matters.

2)beyond job choice or debt. Did this person not take internships during
college??? Cry me a river. You take jobs during bachelor years, you get
reccmondations talk to your employment office (most colleges have them) and
you have something lined up (espcially for a grad). I smell that this person
does not work well with others and bruned all of her bridges with her
colleagues.

Are we getting the full story, is this person good at what they studied and
worked hard to make connections? Possibly not. This is an anecdote that should
not be used as conclusive evidence of anything.

~~~
jnbiche
> worked hard to make connections

Yeah, but there are lots of people who are hard, smart workers, good at what
they do, but they either

a) don't realize how important it is to make connections in order to even
_survive_ in today's professional world, or

b) were told that all they had to do to succeed in life is go to college, pick
a realistic major, work hard, be honest, be trustworthy. Well, that's often
not enough.

You almost always have to have a large professional network in order to thrive
in today's world.

And many people struggle with that.

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dannylandau
She is a good writer. Probably could get a job as content creator at most
start-ups and large companies. I wonder if she ever considered this path,
unless I'm missing something.

~~~
matt4077
Rightly or wrongly, she may have been put off by the lack of respect for the
humanities so prevalent within the startup scene.

Point of evidence: the gradual replacement of the term "author" with "content
creator".

~~~
PeterisP
"Author" is a more specific term - there are many jobs that require ability to
write well, but it doesn't involve any creation of original work or much
choice of expression(as an author would), and it's entirely accurate to say
that you're creating content according to your employers needs but you're not
really an author or copywriter. E.g. writing summaries of other authors, semi-
structured product descriptions, part of highly normative technical writing,
and even fake reviews (it's a whole industry...) or astroturfing.

------
gumby
> "The space, which stretches out across several football fields and up four
> flights of stairs, does give the illusion of forced servitude. "

Perhaps more than an illusion in practice: Nobody takes those jobs if they can
find any alternative...and then the structure of those jobs (time commitment,
low pay, inability to take time off) makes it hard to even look for another.

------
oculusthrift
why did she have to make it about being a black woman? instead of the other
factors. i know the same exact story but with white men.

~~~
tnzn
Because stats show otherwise

------
fullshark
This person seems to think they are entitled to a living in art/poetry just
because they got a graduate degree in it. Degrees don't ensure employment,
marketable skills do, and we should not mislead students to this fact.

~~~
vonseel
I wouldn't go that far. I read the article in full, and it's an interesting
description of the world behind the things many of us take for granted
(Amazon, etc.) as well as some commentary on the author's own life journey. It
sounds like she expected it to be easier to find a REAL job with a degree -
teaching, creative writing, etc. - only to be surprised at the lack of
opportunities for "non-professional graduates".

My parents strongly urged all of their children to pursue professional,
specific degrees: engineering, law, medicine, or accounting/finance. They
reinforced time and time again that "liberal arts degrees" provided fewer
career options, and to put it plainly, that I would probably end up broke if I
chosen that path. I don't think they would have provided financial support to
study something like, for example, music. Or even psychology, for that matter,
unless the goal was to be a PhD/academic.

I agree with your points, however, that degrees do not guarantee employment
and we should not mislead students. Too many students think "degree = job".
Having observed the Norwegian education system from afar (Norwegian mother &
family), I advocate the way they do it and the way many Europeans have
vocational programs and opportunities for technical training as an alternative
to university. Even the janitors in Switzerland may train for as much as 3
years ( see [https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/swiss-
skills_training-t...](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/swiss-
skills_training-to-be-the-best--champion-apprentices/41043876) ). Although, I
do not know how that would work in the American culture, where tradesmen
typically are not respected and do not make as much money as engineers and the
like. Income inequality is a much bigger problem here than in some of the
Scandinavian and European countries.

TLDR: degree != job, if paying for degree, get a technical one (engineering),
accounting/finance, or legal/medical. Make good grades. Grades are more
important in some professions than others. Don't expect to get a job with a
liberal arts degree.

~~~
walshemj
Not always true a many of the high status high paying jobs out side of tech
prefer traditional non STEM degrees.

A degree in some of the traditional liberal degrees History, Litrature from
good Uni (Ivys' Oxbridge ) is still viable.

I used to work (at one of the big publishers) with a younger colleague who had
a first from Oxford in English - she has now moved into the City and probably
earns as much if not more than some of the developers

~~~
flossball
That is like saying all kids should play basketball because they could get
into the NBA. There are always lucky rich people. A ton of Microsoft and
Amazon VPs have local MBA degrees. Does that mean that my Seattle City MBA
will make me $1 million a year?

~~~
walshemj
That's not the really same thing I was talking about high paid and high status
jobs that almost universally recruit liberal arts grads "like them" from
certain universities.

The cult of the MBA is a separate thing.

~~~
flossball
Sorry, that was my point by approaching the 'truth' from both directions.

They were already in the class or network of people. They knew they were going
to be 'doing that work' because they were already recruited into that world
long before university. It has nothing to do with their degree other than a
passing qualification that they were expected to receive and in many cases the
school just hands them no matter what their grades really were.

The degree is a technicality to their position and I am saying that the
example you gave while interesting is not normal for anyone planning to work
for a living.

I worked peripherally to publishing and am quite familiar with the situation.
We had $1 million plus commission sales people 'of the right sort'. Did they
know what the tech they sold did or have any real sales skills? Did it matter?

