
A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards - paralelogram
http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201803290068.html
======
jdietrich
It's worth bearing in mind that the source is Japanese. All input methods for
the Japanese language are a compromise. Inputting kanji on a physical keyboard
is nowhere near as fluid as inputting Latin characters - you're constantly
toggling between inputting kana and selecting the kanji options presented by
the IME.

The prediction and correction technologies of smartphone keyboards are a very
good match for kanji and hànzì input. As a second-language user of Chinese, I
find it considerably faster and easier to input hànzì on a smartphone than
with a physical keyboard. The context switching between inputting pīnyīn and
selecting hànzì is much less expensive when the hànzì are presented directly
above the on-screen keyboard. The prediction and correction algorithms seem to
be far more intelligent on mobile, which largely compensates for the slower
and more error-prone tactile experience.

It is my understanding that most young Japanese people prefer the flick input
method, which is a refinement of the old keitai input method used on
featurephones with numeric keypads; they are often startlingly quick at using
this method, but it poses a far higher switching cost when moving to a QWERTY-
derived physical keyboard. I find it entirely plausible that the flick method
could simply be inherently superior.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V-za9LT_30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V-za9LT_30)

~~~
carindistory
As a Japanese native speaker who has to enter many Japanese texts on a daily
basis both on a PC and on a smartphone, I feel obliged to point out that the
quality of an IME (a piece of software providing possible kanji/alphabet
sequences for a given phonetic relization), is far better on a PC (its built-
in MS-IME, to be precise) than on a smartphone (iOS).

I started looking for some example to show how bad iOS's IME is, and I found
it for the first try: it returns a wrong candidate for the first suggestion
for "かんじをにゅうりょくする" (to enter kanji), returning "感じを入力する" (to enter sense)
rather than the correct "漢字を入力する". Note that "漢字" (kanji) and "感じ" (sense)
have the exact same phonetic relization: Both of them are pronounced as
_kanji_. It seems as if iOS's IME does not take into account any contexts at
all. If it did, how could it have calculated entering sense (?) is more likely
than entering kanji? This kind of absurd error would rarely happen with
Microsoft's IME and it always stresses me out when entering long texts in
Japanese on a smartphone.

~~~
imunolion
There are some better input methods for Japanese, and they are not available
on smartphones.

SKK

What you are talking above is phrase-wise conversion. However, using SKK can
easily distinguish "感じ" and "漢字" by "KanJi" and "Kanji", by explicitly
specifying where the conversion starts and ends with Shift key. SKK can
massively reduce the conversion candidates, so that people can faster obtain
converted sentences.SKK is a good input method, but doesn't exist for
smartphones.

T-Code (or TUT-Code)

We also have t-code input methods on computers but not on smartphones. It
assigns 2 key strokes into one letter(kana or frequently used kanji) directly.
For example, "kd" will type "の" and "is" will be "東". This input method is
also very efficient and boost input speed, however it is designed for physical
full size keyboard with 8 fingers. Its users can't do the same with software
keyboard because they remember the key strokes with fingers.

~~~
peterburkimsher
If anybody is interested in a Kanji dataset for improved input methods, please
check out the 52,835 characters I gathered.

[https://blog.usejournal.com/making-of-a-chinese-
characters-d...](https://blog.usejournal.com/making-of-a-chinese-characters-
dataset-92d4065cc7cc#2e67-5b7da3579715)

I made my own input method for Chinese Hanzi, which decomposes the characters
and lets me find characters based on their IDS codes. It also predicts words
both forwards and backwards (in case you don't know the first character, but
do know the second).

[https://pingtype.github.io](https://pingtype.github.io)

------
nickserv
Do your children a favor and get them a "real" computer with keyboard and
mouse, instead of a tablet.

I've found it helps with several things. For one, I've seen children
accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and
virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've
not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces.

Also, learning to use a keyboard while learning the alphabet seems like a
virtuous cycle, at least in my personal experiences.

And it may sound old fashioned, but making things too easy for kids makes them
less independent and less willing to put in the effort required for learning.

Compare for example searching for animal pictures using voice search versus
going to the search engine, typing out the term, clicking on "images"... The
first is much easier and teaches instant gratification, while the second
teaches perseverance and comes with a greater sense of accomplishment.

Disclaimer: purely anecdotal, take the preceding with a salt shaker...

~~~
21
> I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line
> between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books,
> photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch
> interfaces.

Why do you think this is a bad think? This is how kids learn how the world
works, by trying the same thing in different contexts, like how small children
put everything in their mouth. We don't criticize that, it's part of learning.

> Compare for example searching for animal pictures using voice search versus
> going to the search engine, typing out the term, clicking on "images"

I don't know, when I was a kid I was searching for animal pictures by opening
an atlas picture book. Was it better, did I became smarter because I did this
this instead of using Google or a voice search?

I don't think that making information access easier is ever a bad think.

~~~
nickserv
My worry with toddlers and touch interfaces is precisely because at that age
they should be exploring the world, touching, tasting, smelling, feeling... By
exposing them to something that doesn't react to the laws of physics, I fear
they get a wrong first impression of the world, that at an early age they are
not able to distinguish the difference between a book and a representation of
one. I'm not against tablets, just that they shouldn't be given to toddlers at
all, and to older kids once they are able to use the basics of a keyboard and
mouse interface. Like walking before running so to speak.

Regarding looking things up in a book, it's a great skill to have, even from a
purely enjoyment aspect, and I would certainly encourage kids to learn it. It
doesn't mean not having access to the internet or voice search. Same way one
can teach growing food or making fire with a bow, while still buying groceries
every week and cooking on a convection range.

It's important in my view for kids to know where we've come from, to better
understand the world as it is today.

~~~
kqr
> By exposing them to something that doesn't react to the laws of physics, I
> fear they get a wrong first impression of the world, that at an early age
> they are not able to distinguish the difference between a book and a
> representation of one.

I'm not friends with how you casually throw the word "wrong" in there, as if
it was an unquestionable universal agreement.

Transport yourself (by vessel of imagination) to a future where this toddler
is 30 years old, and both you and this toddler-no-more are bidding for a
project: a customer is going to write a neat piece of software dealing with
technical spec sheets, but they need someone to do the interaction design for
it. Of course, it's going to run on the next-next-next-next-next gen touch
surfaces which is what is available at the time.

You both present your solutions to the customer, and after a few weeks they
call you up to say, "Please don't get us wrong. Your interface was really
good. We decided to go with the ex-toddler anyway. They had similar ideas to
yours, it's just that yours felt a bit tied to the Newtonian laws of physics.
The toddler seemed to think more freely about the medium and used that for
good.

"We fear that, given your age, you have gotten a wrong first impression of
digital interfaces. You seem to have problems distinguishing the difference
between what we call a book these days, and one of those old objects made from
dead trees."

I'm not saying it's good either, I'm saying it's _different_. And while the
toddler perspective may look wrong with your 20th century eyes, it could very
well be that _your_ perspective looks wrong with the toddlers 21st century
eyes.

~~~
nickserv
I work with a designer that has something like 20+ years of print experience.
We make web sites. It's true that some habits are hard to break, like wanting
pixel perfect shapes and alignments, which of course doesn't work too well
with today's needs of responsive design, or mobile first interfaces.

But, after a basic introduction to the fundamentals of modern web design, the
guy has come up with some great ideas, elegant and easy to navigate... And can
still do posters flyers etc.

He is now even getting into 3d stuff for animations.

Point is, learning is incremental, and it's always possible to extend what one
knows in new directions, if one is of curious mind and willing to change.

Now, concerning toddlers and tablets... the thing is, we are governed by the
physical world in which we live. It's very important on a mental but also
motor level to have a good understanding of that. I mean things that adults
take for granted like balance, dexterity, hand eye coordination, a
subconscious understanding of gravity, etc.

These are actually learned by trial and error, if you've ever seen a toddler
stack blocks or learn to throw you'll have seen this in action.

During this period of learning about the world, having regular interactions
with objects that do not follow the same rules is confusing to very young
children. This is not just my opinion but something which many child
psychologists agree on.

Again I'm not against tablets, but better not to introduce them earlier than 3
or 4 years old at the earliest.

I think that still gives them plenty of time to assimilate 21st century
technology and think of the next big thing in 20 years. Which I probably won't
understand ;-)

~~~
jessaustin
It really doesn't matter whether a child learns to stack blocks at ten months
or at three years. Childhood comes before the rat race. I was phenomenally
uncoordinated at least through the age of ten, and it didn't have anything to
do with electronic devices because we didn't have those. I'm now perfectly
capable of numerous complex and precise physical tasks.

------
falcor84
The first example provided in the article (indeed the first sentence) is “How
do I double click?”, and I want to focus on this.

As a kid in the 90s, I just took double clicking as a necessary evil. But
after many many opportunities of trying (mostly successfully) to teach it to
both the elderly and to kids, I've gradually grown to hate it. It's such a
horrible gesture, difficult to perform, complicated to reason about and
entirely disconnected from any real-world metaphor.

May double clicking die off and vanish, never to be found again, except for in
the annals of bad ideas.

~~~
ldjb
I often encounter people having issues double-clicking.

Actually, a lot of people have trouble just single-clicking, so double-
clicking is even more of a challenge.

A lot of people just can't get the knack for clicking twice in quick
succession. And the inconsistency between when they should single-click and
when they should double-click causes a lot of confusion.

I think it probably would make life easier to get rid of the double-click.

~~~
kashyapc
The other week my Dutch language teacher (he's ~55) wrote an email "I would
like to try Linux, can you please assist?" after learning about what is open
source and libre software. I was pleasantly surprised to receive his email. So
last week I went to install Fedora 28 on his new laptop. It all went smoothly.
No, that's a lie; I had to do a little scary command-line surgery while he
watched me do it (and heard me assure he doesn't need to do anything like
that).

I set up all the requisite things, and since it was his first time, we went
through a few common desktop workflows tailored to his needs. There I noticed:
he was single-clicking where he needed to double-click—e.g. while opening a
directory. I briefly explained the differences between the two and we tried
again. He got better, but still struggled. I biked back home wondering if
he'll continue to struggle with the double-click. :-(

~~~
ImaCake
Maybe Ubuntu would be more appropiate as a first time distro? I use Ubuntu
because I end up frustrated having to google a million issues whenever I use
any other linux distro. I grew up on windows desktop and can't really see any
but the most determined ipad user from sticking with ubuntu let alone anything
else.

~~~
kashyapc
I considered it, but Fedora is the beast I know for ~10 years, and I could
debug it more confidently if something breaks (and I know I'll inevitably be
called for tech support). Also, I've had "great success" with Fedora on my
Father's (age: 67) desktop for already 3+ years; so I "built on top of that".

My professor's use cases are quite simple: writing articles in Libre Office
(he's already familiar with it on Winblows), YouTube, and a browser—only one
tab at a time; he was blissfully unaware of the concept of tabs until we
walked through it!

------
SQL2219
This is similar to the stereotype of: young people are good with computers.
Browsing Instagram is not the same as creating value through programming and
complex problem solving.

~~~
strken
I've always felt that young people are seen as good with computers because
they're more confident and less afraid of failure, and that even if their only
experience is instagram they're more likely to google a scary error message or
click around at random in various menus.

~~~
megaman22
I'm not sure that that is the case, any longer. I have a lot of trouble with
our college-aged interns, because they will barely make an effort to try doing
something before getting stonewalled and bailing out to go ask someone to do
it for them. Sometimes I just want to yell at them to run the code and see
what happens, and then try to figure out _why_ what happened happened. And
these are computer science majors.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _doing something before getting stonewalled and bailing out to go ask
> someone to do it for them_

Funny this is the problem. One of my major life lessons was learning _not_ to
always persevere, and to ask for help as soon as possible. Solves more
problems faster, teaches you more ways of looking at a problem and smoothly
scales to delegation.

~~~
plaidfuji
This cannot be emphasized enough. In a social+technical work environment, the
more you "persevere" on your own, the more you'll become pigeonholed as a tech
guru who solves immediate problems but loses influence in the higher-level
decisions of your organization. There's still a balance, though, as asking for
too much help will lead to resentment and people just straight up thinking
you're stupid.

~~~
makapuf
I'm not sure it really is a good thing that being too good at something is
leading to pigeonholing. It's a shame that what was before (or for other
discipline) named mastery is now just seen as relegating from higher levels.
Can you pigeonhole in medicine? Nuclear physics ? Professional football
/sports ? Cooking ? I could go on. I'd frankly rather have people with less
high level view and more knowing what it really means to do something before
deciding to do it.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _being too good at something is leading to pigeonholing_

People who are good at something tend to ask for help when they need it.
Asking for help is a way to get better. Blindly persevering wastes time and
tends to force one into dead ends.

~~~
strken
I don't think giving up instantly is the same thing as asking for help _when
you need it_ , and I don't think e.g. spending 30 seconds minutes googling the
definition of "ENOENT" before calling someone else over is blindly
persevering. I think there's a path through the middle of the two extremes,
where you try a bit of basic problem solving on your own, but ask for help
when you're stuck, and learn from the experience.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _spending 30 seconds minutes googling the definition of "ENOENT" before
> calling someone else over is blindly persevering_

It's not blindly persevering. It is, however, giving up an opportunity to
learn from and interact with a colleague. Whatever you were working on related
to the query might have additional context filled in or expanded upon through
conversation. Some of my most productive and unexpected insights came up as a
result of such banter.

When you ask "what does this mean," you're asking for a definition. You're
also communicating the problem and hinting at your angle of attack. Possible
valuable and unexpected responses include "you're approaching it wrong" or
"why are you working on that problem when X looks more lucrative"

------
kibwen
I'm confused here. The article implies that kids aren't learning how to type
because they don't have access to a PC at home. But for the majority of the
history of computing, it was the case that most people wouldn't have had
access to a PC at home as children. My parents learned to type on typewriters
at college. I had a mandatory class entirely dedicated to typing in middle
school. Have schools stopped offering computer classes, assuming that kids
already know how to use them from their experience at home? If so, then that
sounds like a problem all on its own given that poorer households might not
have had a computer even during the PC golden age.

~~~
jedberg
> Have schools stopped offering computer classes,

Many have stopped or at least severely cut back

> assuming that kids already know how to use them from their experience at
> home?

Partly this and partly budget cuts. Computer skills aren't on the standardized
tests, so they are a "waste of time" like art and music and history and
everything else that isn't on the test. So they are deemphasized.

Some schools with money for computers and a computer teacher will at least try
to integrate it into their language instruction by doing exercises on the
computer.

------
dooglius
>Given that they can write and submit their school reports with smartphones

Would students really do this? I couldn't imagine trying to write an entire
essay or a lab report on a smartphone. Maybe Japanese schools don't have to
turn in longer things like that?

~~~
crazygringo
As someone who recently worked in education... yes. Anecdotally, I tended to
see it at the community-college level with students who owned a large-screen
phone and didn't own a computer.

I don't think anyone is writing whole research papers or serious lab reports
on phones. A two-page reading response is totally doable. Something with
footnotes or equations, not so much.

~~~
ssivark
Yes, one can technically vomit out a few hundred words using a small touch
screen. But the tools make it damn difficult to edit and re-organize text.
Does this mean that all such reports are basically stream-of-consciousness
writing instead of a more carefully polished piece of work?

~~~
innocenat
It's not hard to edit & reorganised with larger screen smartphone at all.

~~~
messe
It seems like it would be more awkward than with a mouse+keyboard controlled
text editor, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I'd love to get better with
working with touchscreens, but I haven't seen any way of getting the
composability I've become accustomed to on the *nix command line and
associated editors (be it vim, emacs or even the monoliths of atom and
vscode).

~~~
crazygringo
Of course it's more awkward. But it's also not hard. And if a phone is all
you've got, and you don't have the money to spend on a computer on top of
it... then you make do. It's not the end of the world. It's fine.

~~~
messe
That's a fair point. I know it's the not the end of the world, but I guess I
was just hoping to be shown a particularly efficient method of touchscreen
input.

~~~
RugnirViking
Also: to further the point, it is possible but even more invonvenient to fix
mistakes and reflow text on a physical page - but that doesn't mean that all
text written on paper is stream-of-conciousness

------
btschaegg
An interesting part in the article:

> Lena-Sophie Mueller, of the German nonprofit Initiative D21, pointed out:
> “Timetables (for railways) are no longer available in paper form. More and
> more services are based on the Internet [...]”

This has been going on for quite a while. I distinctly remember being stranded
in Düsseldorf a few years back. I was at the train station, looking for a
train (I knew the destination but not which train I had to take). It was very
late and since the roaming costs were horrendous (around 15 € per MB, I
think), I had deactivated all mobile data on my phone.

I searched more or less the whole train station, failing to find some printed
plan that told me which train to pick. You could see where the plans used to
be, but they had all been removed. Luckily, a lonely waffle vendor still was
around and helped me out with his iPhone.

I found a line/station map later on -- _inside_ the train in question. How
anyone can come to the conclusion that this is the place to look, is beyond
me.

~~~
Double_a_92
All the stations I've been to have digital displays with all the trains in the
next hours.

~~~
btschaegg
Remember that this is anecdata at best :)

I've been to Stuttgart recently and had no such problems at the train station
there. I just wanted to point out that this phenomenon is not all that new.

------
acutesoftware
If you aren't actually creating content [art, software, serious writing, etc]
then using a mobile is fine for just consuming and it isn't surprising that
these groups don't know how to use a computer.

It is sad though, that young people appear to be less computer literate in
terms of creating content (as an overall percentage of previous generations).

~~~
acct1771
Less literate in terms of creating _anything_.

~~~
bachbach
I agree and I'm in this group.

I blame the duration of modern education. It has made newer generations less
flexible. Institutionalization. It's a paradox because the Internet has made
the pollination of ideas more likely - but we are less likely to do new
things, we stay in our boxes.

This shows up in the productivity and entrepreneurship statistics.

It may be true that wages are poor and rents are high - but also we're really
not helping ourselves. Rates of self built homes should be increasing among
young people but I don't see that. Usually over the years a generation gets
richer but I suspect many young people with 'careers' are waiting for a golden
goose.

If you are aged > 30 and rent in a major city and earn less than 40k-60k per
year - you need to wake up and get out before you become a poor middle aged
person. Most people my age from university are living like students a decade
after leaving the university. Having to live with your parents or live in a
house share cannot be half your adult life if you have a successful career,
nor can forking most of your income over to a landlord.

HN's residents are an anomaly in the broader economy and their experience is
alien to most of their generation.

~~~
mikebelanger
Part of the reason for the decline in self-built in homes is advancements in
modular home building. They're much better, and more economical than ever
before. Even my Dad, who self-built two large homes himself, admitted it
doesn't make sense to self-build. One is better off just working more in
whatever specialty they do, and getting a modular home.

~~~
bachbach
We're not buying those either. I've seen only one prefab in my area.

We're not even building Tiny Houses. That movement has faded away as the land
permission issue dominated over their advantages.

Meanwhile: [https://youtu.be/M73r32vK7C4](https://youtu.be/M73r32vK7C4)

That's not a joke - there is a steep decline in being 'handy' \- I'm doing
everything I can to learn how to be but it still feels a bit unnatural. That
lack of adaptability is like an extra tax.

I don't think my parents are more handy either, but that's a generation that
bought their houses at 5x-15x lower prices so millennials like me could really
do with being more hands on.

To put this in perspective, my father bought his house for 40k 20 years ago
and now it is valued at least 250k. I earn about the same as he did 20 years
ago and I suspect I earn more per hour than my university peers. Bluntly -
they're poor - the most sensitive subject you could talk about is how much you
earn. That's private.

It's not the cost of equipment that's the problem. The cost of good power
tools is lower than before and they're more effective. Materials prices are
higher but not that much. The big constraint is psychological, possibly
followed up by permissions for building.

There's a weird psychology with this subject - weird to hear it described but
it's there.

Somehow _not having a house_ is believed to be less impoverished than going
and building one. Count me out! I don't think forking over half your earnings
to a landlord is sophisticated. I remember talking to people about the Tiny
House concept and I got the strong impression that living in a modest self
built dwelling was an admission of poverty.

~~~
rdiddly
I'm old and I just learned the "case length" trick!

~~~
bertjk
Haha and I just learned the "draw a perfect circle around a nail" trick! No
idea where that might be useful in my own life though.

------
wallflower
Having volunteered to teach kids coming from single-parent household with no
computer at home, I've seen how the inability to type on a QWERTY keyboard
with any modicum of speed (hunt-and-peck) actually limits them when we
encourage them to 'iterate', 'try fast and fail', 'just code a line of
something', or 'what will that do?'. If expressing your thoughts and
intentions to the editor is painful and slow, it is a concrete barrier to
learning how to fail faster.

Forgot teaching kids how to code right away , teach them how to type first so
they can "commune" with the machine (ideally with ergonomics and whole arm
movement in mind so RSI is not an issue).

~~~
colanderman
Specifically I would suggest to let them learn to type _themselves_ , rather
than following some program. (I.e., don't teach home-row typing.) I taught
myself to type when I was 5 or 6, and type with wrists straight (so, at an
angle to each other), hands in no fixed location, and both hands sharing duty
for several keys. I credit this with my freedom from keyboard-related RSI even
after 28 years of typing.

(I have had mouse-related RSI. Mice cause grip issues.)

Better still is to give them a real keyboard, i.e. one with key travel, not a
crappy laptop keyboard. I learned on an Apple II, plenty of key travel. Typing
on a MacBook over the course of three recent years nearly destroyed my typing
ability due to what I can only describe as something like the yips. Switching
back to a real keyboard has helped.

~~~
egypturnash
I think there's something to this. I can type with a pretty decent speed if I
look down at the keys now and then; my hands float around the keyboard and
mostly hit keys with the first two fingers on either hand, with the occasional
left pinky for a modifier and right thumb for space.

I have tried to Learn To Touch Type multiple times in my life and every single
time I could feel my wrists starting to ache from holding them close together
and angled. Dealing with that's just not worth the increased speed and ability
to never look at the keyboard that touch-typing would give me.

------
zorkw4rg
I always thought the idea of the digital divide never went far enough. If you
look at the work performed by regular people on a daily basis using computers
and the work performed by skilled software engineers there is such an absurd
level of difference in efficiency. Its no wonder that AI will replace most
jobs people do.

AI will not be able to make those people more efficient, it will replace them.
AI can't help them to be more efficient since they don't know how to think on
any fundamental level.

> “Everybody in this country should learn to program a computer, because it
> teaches you how to think” - Steve Jobs

------
lesss365
About two years ago, while carrying out user testing at Hunter College on a
prototype for their site redesign/build (yet to be implemented due to
bureaucracy...), we observed several test users default to tapping on the
laptop screen to navigate. For that round the test users were students, and
the ones who defaulted to tapping were of a younger age. Even after making the
initial realization that the screen didn't have touch capabilities, every few
moments they would still touch the screen in an attempt to tap navigation
elements or to scroll a page.

Personally, it was kind of a shock to witness, especially seeing that it was
safe to assume that there was less than a 10 year difference in our ages. It
got me thinking about a near future possibility of keyboardless computers, and
the dread of writing code without one. Though it's unlikely, it struck the
fear of god in me haha

------
ezoe
This situation is not caused by complicated Japanese input methods. This is
caused by young generation who don't use traditional computer with the
keyboard.

It's another digital divide. Yes.

The generation who didn't have a personal computer in their young age is
starting to retire.

Current 30s-40s years old workers are varies on computer literacy but many had
a personal computer when they were a student. I belong to this generation.

I was hoping that the next generation will be completely digital native and
all of them has computer literacy. Just laugh us and obliterate us from work
force for we can't stand a chance against such a gifted digital native
generation at birth. Just like we get rid of those annoying old people who
don't have a computer literacy.

The invention of smartphone make that dream not happens. The smartphone makes
people stupid. There is nothing smart about that computer.

The smartphone is inefficient and restricted computer. You don't have a
freedom to choose the OS. You don't even have a root access to that very
computer you own. It doesn't have a keyboard which is the most efficient input
device for text. The smartphone is designed for reading the text, not for
writing. So the young generation starting to lose the ability to write the
text.

What makes me surprise is, that current students use the smartphone to read
the papers, to write the necessary essay and reports necessary for graduation.

The fresh young generations who has just graduated enter the working class
without learning how to use the keyboard. But the real work which involve a
lot of text writing requires efficient input device such as the keyboard.

So the current trending of smartphone reduce the effective good workers from
already reducing younger population in Japan.

I refuse to own a phone. Smartphone is the worst invention of our time. It
disrupt attention, reduce computer literacy, or even plain literacy for it
makes harder to write the text for most of them.

~~~
bsder
> The smartphone is inefficient and restricted computer.

It's worse than this. The smartphone is such a complete abstraction with
"apps" that modern teenagers don't even have a correct concept of "computer".

The fact that an "app" is actually a recipe and that something (aka a
computer) needs to _execute_ that recipe is a revelation.

~~~
ezoe
Yes, the "app" ecosystem is ridiculous.

I think I don't need to remind you this. But most apps are nothing but browser
wrapper for their specific URL. Most of them doesn't require a special purpose
user-agent at all. Just standard web browser should suffice.

These days, when people hear there exits a new fashionable web service, they
immediately search the "app" for that from locked-in app distribution platform
offered by Apple or Google. Install the top result(hopefully the official app)
without the doubt, and use that web service via the app even though that app
is straightforward browser wrapper and nothing requires to be an app.

So in order to reach the mass, web services of today has no choice but to
release the corresponding app even though their web service is 100% usable
from ordinary web browser.

The smartphone makes people stupid.

------
13years
I didn't introduce anything electronic to my son until he was about 7. I then
told him, he wouldn't be allowed to use a computer until he learns to type
first.

One year later, he was typing over 100 wpm. Now a teenager, he types about
130wpm.

He started with a basic online course to learn the proper technique. Then
afterward, he started playing an online game called nitrotype. Which made
learning to type fast enjoyable.

------
euske
I've seen this claim over and over, and failed to see how this is a big deal.
Most people in Japan in 80s couldn't type either. (An English typewriter
wasn't something that most people would use or own.) Even if kids can't type,
I bet they would learn typing faster than the kids 30 years ago. Sounds like a
fuss about nothing.

------
analog31
When I look at computer interfaces, I'm drawn back to the (probably mythical)
story of the QWERTY keyboard, that it was designed to slow us down because our
brains are faster than the mechanism of the typewriter. The modern GUI could
be interpreted in that way too: Forcing us to direct the computer through a
series of painfully discrete steps, to camouflage the fact that it can't
interpret natural language.

I've seen kids type on their phones, faster than I can type on a QWERTY
keyboard. So, give them a phone that mimics a wireless keyboard and let them
use it to interact with a bigger computer.

As for learning things like Excel, the sad part is not that they haven't been
taught the mechanical skills, but that those tools could enrich their K-12
education, e.g., in math and science class.

~~~
goda90
QWERTY was invented to move letters that were often close to each other in
words to be further apart on the keyboard so as to prevent jams when two keys
were pressed at once on a typewriter.

~~~
rustcharm
[https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/fact-of-
fiction-...](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/fact-of-fiction-the-
legend-of-the-qwerty-keyboard-49863249/)

------
gameswithgo
I've seen this phenomenon while teaching a teenager programming (in america).
He had no problem typing letters, but when it came to symbols like $ % [ (
etc, it took him forever to find them. It makes sense as modern computers
don't require that you edit autoexec.bat files to get a game running and he is
probably mostly on a phone or tablet anyway. But I was surprised!

------
catchmeifyoucan
I can confirm this. My brother is in high school and their school uses ipads
religiously to submit work, handle slide decks and do quizzes. At his age, I
had a typing speed of ~40-50WPM, he can barely do 30, with a lower accuracy
(spellcheck subtly saving him). No proper typing form either because
touchscreen devices are really just one finger-based. This definitely exists.

------
dghughes
My mother told me she saw a baby using a smartphone. He was swiping, typing,
zooming etc.. The mother of the baby said he was 16 months old.

So I can believe in a few years kids will grow up used to smooth phone/tablet
type keyboards and not the physical type.

------
paulryanrogers
During the fourth grade we were taught to type on keyboards, but only as one
part of a computer class. I forgot how soon after. Once I got interested in PC
gaming I learned to hunt and peck quicky, program batch files, and use macros.

Then I got a computer science degree and worked for almost two years as a
programmer; typing by staring at keys using two fingers. When the time came it
didn't take long to relearn 'proper' typing.

For some kids a little exposure to fundamentals at the right time is enough.
And there is more to computing than input technique. So long as the kids are
interested and motivated nature will find a way.

------
donretag
In the meantime, services like Venmo are becoming mobile only since the
majority of users only use the mobile app (so they say). Many new startup
ideas are mobile-first since that is where their user base is.

~~~
curun1r
> Many new startup ideas are mobile-first since that is where their user base
> is

The main reason it's smart to go mobile first is the transition from mobile to
desktop is significantly easier than going from desktop to mobile. It's very
easy to design a desktop product that's almost impossible to make mobile and
almost impossible to do the opposite.

------
imron
> Young people who can’t use keyboards

How is this different from previous generations?

The examples listed (not knowing how to use a keyboard, not knowing how to
double click and not knowing what a 'cell' in a spreadsheet is) were all
extremely common among my classmates back in highschool (and this is talking
about the 90's here, so computers were in fairly widespread use at this
point).

The new digital divide is just like the old one.

~~~
hocuspocus
In the 2000's I had to write physics and chemistry lab reports, typically 4-5
pages long, with enough formulas that I ended up ditching Word and MathType
for some basic LaTeX.

In maths I had to write Excel macros and Mathematica scripts.

I know that education in Japan is probably a bit more disconnected from
reality compared to the pragmatism we see here, but still, the goal of high-
school is to prepare students for college no?

~~~
dorchadas
> but still, the goal of high-school is to prepare students for college no

It depends on who you ask. In the school I work at, in the Rural South in
America, many parents and students say the goal of high school should be to
teach the students how to do a competent job and take care of themselves after
school. So they complain about having to learn Algebra II and other "useless"
stuff, while they don't even know how loans and interest and debt and such
works. Or how to book a hotel, things like that.

School has, basically, become expected to teach students both job training and
basic life skills that, a few generations ago, parents and companies would
have explained. It's become basically free training, and, honestly, it defeats
the purpose of education; universities are the same way.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
It depends on who you ask because school serves different purposes for
different people. School is a service that someone can use as part of their
education.

------
matz1
The world are always evolving. Nothing sad about this. This is like saying
young people can't use abacus anymore. These new generation of young people
will grow up and with new kind of input method or paradigim.

Who knows maybe the traditional way of programming with keyboard will evolve
to something completely different for the next generation of people.

~~~
TangoTrotFox
I think your statement would be completely appropriate if we were talking
about something like a futuristic device like a 'neural lace' that enabled you
to input using your brain at an extremely high rate and with minimal to no
effort. Calculators and abacuses do the exact same thing, but calculators
enable it to be done vastly more quickly and easily.

In this case touch screens are simply vastly inferior for the vast majority of
all tasks. At best, they're something different. At worst, they're a textbook
example of artificial demand [1] for a mediocre technology driven by highly
effective marketing.

[1] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_demand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_demand)

------
zencash
I think it will take time, keyboard, when first encounters can be hard to use,
saying that, younger people these days have access to a keyboard almost 24/7
whether it be iPads or mobiles that they use.

I'd like to see how kids of this generation can manage using a franking
machine [1] or even a photocopier.

Our currently generation 25-40 used floppy disks at some point, now it's just
an icon on your software suite [2]. Will this be the case for keyboard in 10
years time? Will the physical version be needed?

[1] [https://frankingmachinecompare.co.uk/what-is-franking-
machin...](https://frankingmachinecompare.co.uk/what-is-franking-machine-used-
for/) [2]
[https://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheFloppyDiskMeansSaveAnd14Ot...](https://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheFloppyDiskMeansSaveAnd14OtherOldPeopleIconsThatDontMakeSenseAnymore.aspx)

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _now it 's just an icon on your software suite_

I’m trying to remember the last time I saw this icon. Either what I’m working
on has “save” as text, is constantly auto-saved or requires Ctrl-S.

~~~
zencash
I guess this is true too, we're moving so fast with software.

A few programes here and there do still utilize a floppy disk as a mark to
save something though.

------
phantom_oracle
I'm going to go against the grain that is advocating for "keyboards are
better" and say that maybe the touchscreen can be a gateway to a more
efficient method of rendering text to a screen vs. a keyboard.

Keyboards suck and cause your hands to be in an unnatural position for a long
time.

~~~
Double_a_92
The keyboard gives me the ability to directly "link" my mind to the text
field. I don't have to actively type, just think about what I want to say. I
couldn't achieve that with a touch screen yet.

------
codedokode
Smartphones are easier to use. One only has to remember how to scroll and how
to use an app store. Compared to them, PCs are much more difficult to use:
they have windows, taskbars, file browsers, right and double clicks, and often
don't have a sane browser preinstalled. Installing software on a PC is
complicated and it is easy to download a virus instead of Flash Player. Often
external devices don't work without drivers. As desktop OS don't have proper
process isolation, one usually has to use an antivirus.

Also, smartphones have physical volume keys and sleep/wakeup much faster than
PC.

And PCs still don't have dedicated keys to switch input languages.

But typing on a smartphone is a hell. I always make mistakes and hit the wrong
button.

------
nimbius
as a blue collar engine tech, I dont think you can segment the part of the
population that cant use a keyboard into old/young. I know plenty of people
within my age that freeze up trying to type in something as simple as a first
name. I work with veterans that cant search for a part number, or a make/model
of a vehicle without pausing 5 seconds between keys. My typing speed is great,
but its because I got into Linux and programming. The largest determination of
your typing ability is whether you spend most of the day with your hands on a
wrench or your fingers on a keyboard.

------
danso
Back in 2011, Dan Russell (search researcher at Google) found that as much as
90% of typical computer users did not know how to use Ctrl-F to find something
on a webpage. Since then, I imagine the overall percentage has gotten worse,
what with Find in Page being more or less buried:

[https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/08/crazy...](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/08/crazy-90-percent-
of-people-dont-know-how-to-use-ctrl-f/243840/)

------
jccalhoun
This is one reason why Apple will either have to eventually cave in and make
laptops with touchscreens or just give up and just make ipads (I supposed they
could say they will just make both so consumers can choose). They are teaching
a generation of people to touch their screen. I see my college students using
the touchscreen on their windows laptops all the time (I hardly ever use the
touchscreen on my laptop). It is only a matter of time before noting having a
touchscreen on a laptop will be seen as a serious deficiency in the eyes of
consumers.

~~~
dbg31415
Just a side note... man, the number of people who touch monitors is way too
high. Keep your grubby fingers off my monitor.

~~~
kart23
Ugh, even other peoples screens. Like seeing a macbook screen covered in
fingerprints and oil is just the most disgusting thing ever.

------
mnl
I've met (teaching) too many teens that can't really use a computer. The
procedural and hierarchical structure abstractions, even the desktop metaphor
is lost on them. Idk if there's much of a future for widespread general
purpose computing. The situation is understandable, as it's way more difficult
to get the gist of how your system works nowadays than 20-30 years ago, and
they're really using mobile paradigms that don't expect you to think about it,
but I don't think it's a good prospect.

------
yfp
I’m a Japanese young engineer and same generation. I've encountered a similar
situation. There were many colleagues of the company who don't know copy and
paste and so on. It seemed Kanji problem in comments, but young people can
type Kanji exactly, on rather, they don't know how to use computer like double
click, where is power button etc. Also, Japanese IT companies hire new
employees don't have CS degrees. They hire people in all of major. It may be a
problem with hiring method.

------
apozem
I have never not had access to a desktop PC, but what about people who can't
afford one? Say a poor family has $100 to spend on a kid. They're going to get
a phone every time. I could definitely see a poor kid only grow up on mobile
devices.

Related story: My college roommate studied accounting and one of the first
classes they made him take was remedial computing. Here's how Excel works, use
alt-tab to switch windows, that kind of thing. I thought the class sounded
dumb but maybe it's necessary.

------
EamonnMR
As I see mobile eat desktop, I worry that we loose computers as a tool for
creativity and end up with computers as purely communication and consumption
aids.

------
alenmilk
Hello computer

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9kTVZiJ3Uc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9kTVZiJ3Uc)

------
agumonkey
I mostly hate tactile-less devices, fingers and eyes are nicely decoupled, and
now I'm forced to focus on my smartphone.

But recently I tried typing on android keyboard with all fingers. It's hard
(no tactile delimitation or confirmation) but doable. I wonder if kids these
days consider this as normal pro use of smartphones. Basically cultural
relativity.

------
BrandoElFollito
Maybe this is the case in Japan. It is certainly not true in Europe.

People use keyboards all the time and submitting anything beyond basic on a
smartphone does not happen here.

I was at our local library recently, during the time students were preparing
for exams. Everyone had z phone to check messages. Almost everyone had a
laptop. I did not see a single tablet.

------
Mistri
I'm in high school. I know how to double click, I know how to work with excel
spreadsheets. I plan to pursue a CS degree and eventually get an engineering
job in the future. Heck, I even read Hacker News.

Yes, us teens are on our smartphones a lot, but the majority of us know how to
use computers... this article is pretty misleading.

~~~
kart23
We're not talking about the minority of kids here. Yes, there are tons of
other teens like you who code and use computers. But look at the majority of
younger kids at your school. What devices are they on?

------
jkabrg
I still prefer pencil and paper.

I find it's the least limiting because you can draw anything, the easiest to
use because you don't have to learn a GUI or a language, and the fastest --
yet software people will still wonder how they can GREP it. Another contra is
legibility and possibly aesthetics.

------
Double_a_92
It's too real. My niece once told me that she doesn't like using Word on her
Laptop because it's better on the iPad... Because they keyboard is more like
on her smartphone there.

I was like "WTF" internally... And she's writing her first CV and application
letters like that.

------
rb808
I don't think this is a US problem. Elementary school in US commonly uses
computers a lot. My children had typing lessons in 1-3 grade, and standardized
tests (both math and language arts) are done on a pc/chromebook where you're
expected to type.

------
xkcdefgh
Looking at the context, it seemss like it's the keyboard that needs to evolve
for these languages. I can't fathom anyone writing a school report on a
smartphone in english

------
izzydata
I wish my ability to type at 150 WPM was a more marketable skill. It seems
mostly irrelevant as anyone who can type above 50 WPM is good enough for 99%
of situations.

------
konart
>“How do I double click?” “What is a cell in a spreadsheet?”

>it is not uncommon for even would-be system engineers to ask such questions.

How the hell is it even possible?

------
crispytx
I've noticed this at theCoderSchool where I teach kids to code. The majority
of the kids can't type.

------
rocky1138
They don't teach touch-typing in school anymore? It's really surprising and
disheartening, if so.

------
Havoc
People write reports on smartphones?

Everyone around me can def use a keyboard. Not ten finger touch type but near
enough

~~~
zcdziura
This article talks primarily about people from Japan, whose script I imagine
is much easier and faster to enter via a smartphone.

------
ac130kz
IMHO 10 finger typing technique should be taught at schools just like hand-
writting

------
qwerty456127
I'm just curious how is the smartphone generation going to write code...

------
snegrus
I understand the issue described in the article, but I don't understand why
people from this thread are so obfuscated about smartphones, teens not using
physical keyboards or babies using smartphones better than they keep their own
balance on 2 feet.

We were drawing with blood in caves, we were scratching stones with other
stones, we were sculpting symbols on walls in Egypt, we started writing on
papyrus, then paper, then started using typewriters, then physical keyboards
and now virtual keyboards. Don't act like the generation that critiques the
next generation because they see the world different.

Kids from today probably will be the ones communicating through brainwaves
with the IoT or similar; a more efficient and higher throughput interface.
Yes, it's important to learn how to use pencil and paper and how to type
faster on a keyboard but move on.

I actually find it cumbersome to write on a keyboard on the phone, but also I
feel that everything else is slow, interfaces are cumbersome, unintuitive and
mostly just stupid.

If I search for a path on google maps, from point A to point B in a different
country than I am now, and I forget to switch to car instead of public
transport, then I don't get any result. And I am like how the fuck there is no
path since there is an obvious big street over there, in the middle of the
screen. Oh there is a small icon somewhere to switch the type of transport
from public transport to car. What if they would check there are no results
and suggest to change the transport type? Thanks for rounding the corners of
the search bar, it makes a great difference.

Let me rant about search and reaching for an app on any OS. I have 120 apps on
my iPhone 8, I use 5-6 everyday let's say. But once in a while I want to open
an app that I don't know where it is because I don't use it often. I know how
is called because is a well-known app and has the same name with their service
or business or whole company. I use the search functionality on iOS, swipe
down type 3 letters, wait, wait, fucking wait 2 seconds to get the results. It
should be lightning fast, there are 120 strings to search through why the hell
it takes so long. Oh, I typed last letter wrong, delete it, results are
refreshing, write the correct one, wait again for results.

If I notice the lack of motion or changes then is too slow.

You will say that I can organize things in folders, after 3 months, oh is that
app that connects to the camera in photos folder, utils, connectivity or "not
often". Who cares? I know how the app is called, I can search for it, why is
it slow?

Huge props for the fact that the text box gets focused when swiping down and I
don't have to ("click?") touch on it to focus.

There are just 2 examples, but I use apps on my phone everyday, I search for
public transport on my phone every weekend, multiple times a day. Why focus on
making the 3 dots for settings as 3 dots instead of 3 lines from the burger
icon? It's still unintuitive and the rest of the app is unintuitive. I could
rant for weeks about other features or functionalities, on any platform you
want.

God bless autocomplete!

Stop whining about small things, see the bigger context, meet people where
they are going, understand their intentions, maker super usual tasks extremely
easy and stop being stubborn. You will move on or other will move past you,
sooner or later, worst case you will pass with your idea.

Context: I am working as a programmer full-time, participated for a long time
in high school and university in algorithmic contests. I had multiple
computers and used different OS-es. I am confortable with the CLI and I have a
decent understanding how things work on the internet, what happens on multiple
layers from when you type in your browser URL bar to when you see the website.

------
gaius
_they can write and submit their school reports with smartphones_

I can only imagine these reports must be completely trivial if they can be
written without the use of a keyboard. Standards aren’t slipping they say...

------
sexydefinesher
Cant say i feel sorry for the people who chose to be enslaved to interfaces.
Information technology will continue to expand into human life more and more,
whether you are prepared or not.

~~~
FactolSarin
In my experience with kids, it's not a choice. It's mostly poor kids who have
this problem. Their family doesn't have a PC, and an old/cheap smartphone is
the way they access the Internet.

~~~
mikebelanger
Yeah definitely. A phone is considered much more necessary for basic
functioning in a modern society - whereas the computer is a little 'extra'.
Naturally poorer people only invest in the more basic, cheaper thing.

I believe projects like Raspberry Pi were attempts to mitigate this issue too.
Hopefully they gain more traction in society at large.

~~~
walshemj
Well that's some of what it's doing now but originally it was for A Level
students to get real experience in the two years of school before they went to
university.

And A level students in STEM subjects are not typically from poor backgrounds.

------
redleggedfrog
"However, much of this does not align with the knowledge necessary to work in
their future jobs."

This is _not_ a problem. If they're not smart enough to realize they are
deficient in necessary skills for future personal prosperity then I probably
don't want to hire them for my company anyway. And if for some reason I do,
then they better damned well learn how to type in a hurry. It's not the most
difficult skill.

Do you know where the real problem is with the damned smart phones and not
knowing how to type and do your job? Managers. We've got a world full of
people supposed to be managing and instead they're spending their time texting
unintelligible and incomplete crap to their employees while they gallivant
around.

WTF happened to actually _working_?!

