
What I say to people who are looking for a job - gkamradt
https://www.gregkamradt.com/gregkamradt/2018/3/18/0xov5ak1hjunr4twj83k940z9q6fza
======
stcredzero
One piece of advice I like to give nowadays, is that if you don't know how to
get to a goal, then do this:

    
    
        1) Divide up that goal into pieces.
        2) Take those initial pieces and divide that up.
        3) Take one of the bits from 2, and create a lame, incomplete version of it
        4) Keep polishing that bit until it's great
    

The key steps are 3 and 4! It's hard to build even a small production ready
component of something, even a very small subpart. However, pretty much anyone
can build a lame, insecure, wonky version of that subpart.

An example is the movement syncing system in my MMO. First I went through an
"Asteroids in HTML5" tutorial. Then I got hold of a "Chat in Websockets"
tutorial. Then I hooked them up in the lamest way imaginable, then kept on
iterating.

The very hardest part is 4, of course. In order to do that part, you have to
know what it is you don't know. A good Comp Sci education gets you a good ways
there. (Warning: If your profs and TAs keep telling you "you don't need to
know [X]" because libraries/etc take care of that for you, you need to figure
out if they're only saying that because they don't know themselves. If on the
other hand, they give you some background information about when you _do_ need
to know [X] then that's valuable information.)

~~~
bglazer
Reformatted list for mobile:

1) Divide up that goal into pieces.

2) Take those initial pieces and divide that up.

3) Take one of the bits from 2, and create a lame, incomplete version of it

4) Keep polishing that bit until it's great

------
PopeDotNinja
Based on the title, I was expecting the article to suck, but I think it's
actually pretty solid.

My takeaway is 2 things:

\- if you wanna do something for living, sound like you know it well, and
hopefully actually well

\- if you are not financially independent, keeping shaking the money tree
until you have another money tree to shake

And calling myself out, here's a couple notes to self:

\- don't judge a book by it's cover (or an HN link by it's title)

\- don't assume things are gonna suck just because you're in a suboptimal mood
in that moment

~~~
rc-1140
> Based on the title, I was expecting the article to suck, but I think it's
> actually pretty solid.

I disagree, honestly. After reading it, I saw another stellar example of empty
yet well-meaning advice. It's just enough to stand on its own, has good
intentions, but doesn't actually focus on a tangible problem or set of
problems that people have. Rather, it addresses a few high-level topics in
extreme brevity and is just an outlet for the author to demonstrate some kind
of power they feel that they hold[0]. The article looks more like a wrapper
for a previous HN comment, which is in a thread about an article detailing a
very specific and actually useful piece of advice, and a Data Science book.

[0]
[https://ink.library.smu.edu.sg/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6...](https://ink.library.smu.edu.sg/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6779&context=lkcsb_research)

~~~
dnautics
a lot of the advice struck me as something that not everyone looking for a job
can _afford_. 10 weeks of trying a new thing for a week? I found the best
advice in the article to be the one about taking time off to travel - that it
will be hard getting back (know someone who is in that state now)

Honestly: If you're looking for a job - find a friend who is hiring. Be sure
that friend is not just a friend, but a friend who is going to _go to bat_ for
you.

~~~
jehlakj
It’s a tricky situation. I was in a position to look for hires, but I was
surprised to realize how many of my friends weren’t necessarily qualified for
that position. It wasn’t a high position or anything either.

If you can vouch for a friend to that degree, they probably don’t need your
help.

~~~
dnautics
> If you can vouch for a friend to that degree, they probably don’t need your
> help.

A friend of mine finished a coding camp. He'd been looking for a job for 9
months. I interviewed him and totally understood why - he just had no chill at
all. Super anxious, very nervous, seemed way too eager to please, borderline
desperation? Sat him down, we did a very tough coding problem, and he did just
fine for a junior position, so I made an offer happen.

A lot of times people have a 'singular flaw' that nobody will tell them what
it is, and it takes someone willing to come up with an excuse to get them
hired.

------
bluGill
What I say: the worst thing that can happen is you take a job and realize a
few weeks latter you hate the job.

You can do anything (within limits). Some miserable jobs must be done by
somebody, they often pay well. Doing a "miserable" job for 40 hours a week and
going home might be better than a job you love for 100 hours a week, since
those off hours can be filled with other things you love. It depends on you
though. One person's mild dislike is another person's hate. One person works
with fun people and doesn't care about the nature of the work, another hates
his co-workers and wants out of an otherwise great job.

~~~
HillaryBriss
> a few weeks later you hate the job

yes. and, to make matters a bit more confusing, _any_ job can be made vile by
extreme hours, rude/uncaring/mean co-workers, multiple bosses, unnecessary
chaos and stress caused by an overprivileged unqualified manager, etc. so one
needs to somehow see past all of that in order to figure out if one hates the
job or _this job_

------
ergothus
> Google, “[this activity I like] for dummies” and learn for a week.

I used to think this, but after guiding some folks into coding I find this
flippant and discouraging.

First, tech is lucky in that you can learn essentially for free, with the not-
to-be-forgotten requirements of a computer and an internet connection. Other
professions - say, carpentry - have costlier barriers to entry, even for that
week.

Second, what are the baseline requirements to get there? Tech is in the
opposite position here: depending on what you turn up in that hypothetical
Google search, you might find things for different OSes, for different kinds
of work. Ops is not Database is not Data Science is not backend service code
is not front end web coding is not desktop application development (and mobile
is in a place of it's own). It's VERY VERY easy for someone to get a very
wrong impression. Someone "not good at math" but with a logical thought
process can kick ass in coding in the right area, but they can get the wrong
tutorials for what they want with no clue that's happening. Most tutorials
(for good reason) don't try to overload you so they make a lot of
assumptions...but those assumptions are wrong for a lot of people.

Third, the assumption of "a week" is very hard for most people. They have
family considerations, whatever job(s) they currently hold (and the energy it
sucks out of them, which for people wanting a career change is often higher
than otherwise). Do you expect an hour a day for that week? 3? 8? Make this
clear before telling people that if they can't handle the week they shouldn't
try this.

I applaud what the author is TRYING to do, but this approach is most likely to
end up discouraging rather than inspiring most people in my experience.

In the past when I told people they could just learn the basics of programming
online, I was basing it off of me trying to do so with all of my knowledge and
experience that I already have (which, not coincidentally, also includes a lot
of info on how to find good ways to learn online). Expecting others to do so
without accidentally steering themselves into frustration is optimistic at
best.

This doesn't mean they CAN'T - it just means a little guidance helps a LOT.
While I only really know coding and tabletopRPGs, I assume the same points
apply to other professions: A guide - not asking them to teach you, but to
help you define what you're asking and avoid pitfalls ("Don't pay $200 for a
udemy course, wait for their very regular $10 sales") can help you make the
most of any go-get-um attitude and dedication.

~~~
semitext
I also take issue with the idea that you should try something for a week, and
if you don't like it, it's not for you. There are certain ctivities where your
first week will be a poor representation of how much you enjoy an activity. I
found the first couple of weeks of learning how to play a guitar miserable.
That does not mean it was wrong for me to persevere, it meant that certain
activities only become enjoyable once you reach a particular skill threshold.
I can think of a lot of activities that work like that.

~~~
astura
Consider the case of someone who is terribly out of shape and tries something
that is a bit physically demanding for a week. They will feel miserable. That
doesn't mean the task is "not for them," it might mean they can enjoy it if
they get into better shape.

------
esotericn
The problem with this sort of advice is that how useful it is completely
depends on where you are in life. Basically, it's targeted advice, but there's
no disclaimer stating that.

Arbitrary examples:

\- Someone fresh out of a Chemistry undergrad

\- A 40 year old laid off from their Walmart job with no savings

\- A 30 year old who's just had a successful startup exit

\- A young (say ~20) adult in a dead-end town

... etc

The advice given to all of them will be completely different. For most people,
this stuff is completely useless, but for a specific group, it might be very
useful.

It's also very much dependent on goals. Do you want to work 9-5 for a
lifetime? Hard at first, easy later? Do you want to take high-risk shots to
attain financial independence? etc.

~~~
leesec
I don't think this is the problem. I think you assuming a short blog post like
this is supposed to be a universal, generalized solution to job searching is
the problem.

You can pretty much tell if this article is meant for you in about 1 minute.

~~~
pmiller2
No, the problem is it's mis-titled. It should probably say something like
"What I say to people who are looking for a job in tech" or something.

~~~
leesec
Yes why don't we all account for every edge case in every single thing we say.
Perhaps it should have been, "What I sometimes say to some people who are
looking for a job in specific industries in certain age groups in given
regions of the world, provided they have the resources, intelligence,
financial security, and time to do so."

It's a casual blog post not a piece of code.

~~~
pmiller2
You're not even giving my post a good-faith reading. I suggested adding two
words to the title to make the post far better and more specific, not adding a
32-word mini post in the title. Do you really believe that's what I was
suggesting, or are you just trolling and looking for an excuse to downvote?

------
dracodoc
In my opinion, the single most point in job seeking is to get feedback as much
as possible, as early as possible.

Consider these bad examples:

sending many resumes and didn't get any response. This is huge blow to morale
and there no hint on what should be improved, which went wrong.

\- to fix it: get someone in field to review the resume and give suggestions.
This is simple but many people didn't do it. And it's totally possible to find
somebody you never know before to review your resume.

decide to jump on a wagon (data science, machine learning) and plan years for
it, like online degree, many courses, a master or even a Ph.D!

\- problem: it took too much time to get some feedback, and the commitment is
too big, often not executable in reality. It's possible somebody spent a lot
of effort to get in a program, only to find out he/she doesn't like/fit it
later.

\- and the wagon may be outdated when you finished the program.

\- to fix: tiptoe as early as possible, like a side project, some short
courses. This of course require some existing experience and skills.

In general,

\- meetup is a great way to meet with people, learn about the field.

\- doing side project is very useful.

------
EADGBE
> Google, “[this activity I like] for dummies” and learn for a week.

Call me shallow, but everything I like to do is something I've researched
exhaustively. This is also related to the reason why it'd be _very_ difficult
for me to come up with "30 specific activities [I'm] interested in".

Somewhat OT: _We are in a dawn of the second career (or third, fourth,
fifth)_. As we live longer and longer and are required to support ourselves
with our own pensions, we'll see more and more people giving up what they know
in order to pursue enlightenment in some other unrelated field. Lack of
employer sponsored pensions, continuing education, and vesting schedules is a
key identifier [and has been for a while] to this.

------
ForHackernews
This guy seems hilariously full of himself:
[http://www.ischiaproject.com/purpose/](http://www.ischiaproject.com/purpose/)
(linked from the OP)

> The purpose of the Ischia Project to to provide a visual, personal, and
> informational perspective of the Island of Ischia in its present state. This
> project does not serve to be a travel guide for the island, however, it does
> promote itself as a chance to visit the island through the lens and words of
> a fellow traveler. Through photos and interviews the reader can start to
> understand what it means to physically observe Ischia today. It is important
> to note that the stance in which this project is present is that of an
> outsider looking in rather than a native to the island.

Shorter: "I was a tourist in Ischia and this is my travel instagram/blog."

~~~
SuperhackerXXL
Serious question- did you look into the project any further than reading the
purpose? I've never seen a "travel instagram/blog" that included 9 unique
interviews that focus on the interviewee/local culture. There is actually
minimal ego involved in the entire thing- the primary focus seems to be on
shedding light on a lesser known locale with very few (3, to be exact)
personal articles.

------
DrNuke
If you need a job asap, your best chance everywhere is to ask relatives,
friends and friends of friends for a stop gap position, then build from that.

------
ken
> “Building things” isn’t an activity. “Building furniture” or “Building a web
> app” is an activity.

This is a strange way of thinking, to me. What I’m building (or even if I’m
“building” at all) is _way_ down my list of priorities. You’d do better to ask
me what color I want the walls painted at my job.

Building software can be fun and I’ve spent many years of my life doing that,
but in that field I’ve also had some of the worst managers I could have
imagined. I much prefer loading boxes in a warehouse for a great boss, than
writing software for a lousy one.

Why would I start a job search with the low-order bit? That practically
guarantees an inefficient search, which may not even converge on a local
maximum.

------
munchbunny
I have one major problem with this advice. This advice is only actionable for
people who either already have financial security and can afford to take time
off, or who don't have day to day responsibilities that demand your spare
time, like childcare.

If you have all of that spare time, then by all means try to follow that
advice. But if you're short on time for life or financial reasons, it's much
trickier, and you have to find ways to make many small adjustments to get to a
career change.

------
astura
Wow, this is the most ridiculous "advice" ever. I mean, just absolutely
absurd. So terrible and outlandish I'm convinced it must be satire. Either its
satire or its written by someone incredibly far removed from reality.

There's a ton more to deciding on a career than "I pick the thing that I find
most interesting." I mean, c'mon...

Other factors (not inclusive):

What's the pay? How important is pay vs enjoyment of the work? Are you willing
to sacrifice pay to do something you love? Are you willing to do a "meh" job
that pays well for a few years to save up so you are in good financial shape
to follow your passion?

Are other people relying on your income? How does your job choices affect
them?

Hours? Will you be on call? Shift work? Mandatory unpaid overtime? Will this
effect your marriage? Social life?

Is travel required and can you travel?

What's the realistic job outlook? I might find baseball the most interesting
thing in the world, but making that into a career isn't feasible for everyone
but the best of the best of the best. If I did pursue baseball, then I'd have
to be willing to endure a poverty wage in the minor leagues for years with a
99% probability of never being called up to the majors. Even if I wanted to
work a non-player role, what's the competition? Do I stand a chance?

Is it a job that requires luck and/or knowing the right people to get hired?

What's your fallback if this doesn't work out?

Do you have to relocate? Are you ok with that?

Do you have to go [back] to school? Crunch the numbers, does it make financial
sense to go [back] to school?

Is your spouse ok with all these choices? When you're married you are a team
and negotiation must happen.

Are you ok with turning something you love into something you hate? That's the
biggest issue with making a "passion" into a job, it can become a chore and
you can grow to hate it. Just because you love doing it in your free time
doesn't mean you will love doing it when you have to.

Just because you really enjoy something doesn't mean you're good enough for
someone to pay you to do it. Be realistic here, most people aren't going to
get paid to do a hobby.

Just because you really enjoy doing something for yourself doesn't mean you'd
really enjoy doing something for someone else. If you love building websites
for yourself using your own technology stack at your own pace doesn't mean
you'd love building websites for someone else, to their exact specifications,
with a technology stack you didn't choose, and half of it is maintaining
someone else's legacy code.

Do you have an entrepreneurial spirit or are you happier with being a cog in
the machine?

Consider health concerns.

Work life balance?

If you're interested in learning something, what's the barrier to entry? Do
you have to buy a lot of expensive equipment to get started? If you do, do you
have both the money and the physical space for this equipment? Is teaching
yourself this activity dangerous?

If you pick a job based on "things I'm interested in," you miss out on the
jobs you don't even know exist yet.

Most jobs you can't have as a "side project" first. You can't be an lawyer on
the side to see if you'd like to make it a career. Nor can you be an
optometrist, medical biller, security guard, nuclear engineer, HVAC
technician, veterinarian, offshore oil rigger, flight attendant, police
officer, solider, mortician, plus an a million other things.

Finally, in the real world most jobs aren't particularity interesting nor do
they usually give you "energy"! Learn to deal with it, this is real life, not
some fantasy land. If you get to turn something you enjoy into something you
are paid handsomely for, you're incredibly lucky. 99% of jobs out there are
simply a means to an end.

------
EADGBE
Career and career transitioning advice from someone who started their (first)
career in 2012.

Classic.

------
paulpauper
It seems like most of the comments are negative yet the article has over 130
votes. Weird how that works sometimes.

~~~
romwell
Last time I checked, I couldn't _downvote_ articles here.

So instead of downvoting drivel like this into oblivion, people come and
explain why they think this is nonsense.

~~~
slededit
You can flag posts.

------
czardoz
This is really a lot more subjective than the write up makes it out to be.
There's no generic algorithm for determining whether or not someone needs a
new job.

------
shujito
what if I don't have money?

~~~
fimdomeio
Then check your options in how you can do things that you that give you enough
money and time to proceed in the direction you really want. Not having money
is both a really though problem to solve and a very easy excuse.

------
JSeymourATL
More from Greg here; helpful ideas on his job search approach and pitch >
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6nFJzW-
SDg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6nFJzW-SDg)

------
ldarby
Offtopic, but you now do "analytics on user behavior" at Salesforce. Do your
analytics let you know that logging out my brower tabs overnight to show me
some marketing bullshit is really f*king annoying?

------
frgtpsswrdlame
Does any of this actually matter if you've got decent connections? Does any of
it matter if you don't have any connections?

I mean just looking at your linkedin, you've changed jobs every 8 months to
one year, relocated multiple times, done a bootcamp, etc. That's what you
should say to people who are looking for a job. None of this seems that useful
to those really struggling. Look at this thread from earlier:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18401578](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18401578)

What can he take from this post? Doesn't seem to me that he can take anything
at all. This fluffy blogspam constantly pollutes the page, but maybe I'm just
a cynical asshole, what is it that people actually take away from this kind of
thing?

------
megaman8
Rule #1 for career advice: Never, ever leave a good job unless your
financially ready to retire.

~~~
umichguy
What constitutes a "good job" here? The pay or the work you like to do? I did
a kinda stupid thing when I left my last half decent paying, but a miserable
one for nothing. I just couldn't take it anymore. So I stepped off the ledge,
figuratively speaking. I was lucky enough that I had money for 6 to 8 odd
months, so I just packed my bags and took off backpacking. Only now just
slowly trying to get back into full time work again.

~~~
megaman8
So, it sounds like that wasn't a "good job".

The tricky part is defining what a "good job" is. which will be different for
different people. i define it as: good work life balance, decent salary, good
location, good stability.

