
Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people - svmanager
https://staysaasy.com/engineering/2020/06/09/Don%27t-Joke.html
======
kemiller2002
This is sound advice. You have a significant amount of control over people's
lives as a manager, and that should be treated with a level of respect. You
have no idea how people feel, and it is quite possible that someone you manage
doesn't know where they stand with you. At times that is more than enough to
cause them stress and even convince them to look elsewhere. Work is stressful
enough, and you don't need to add to it.

I should also note. If you're a manager, your job is to do things that make
you uncomfortable. If you can't handle sitting there and telling them you're
letting them go in person, it's probably not the path for you. Have the
decency to look someone in the eye. Don't pass it off to HR, because that's
more convenient.

~~~
dudul
Do you have significant amount of control? Maybe I've been lucky to be part of
mostly healthy organizations, but even managers have to justify/explain
decisions. Either be for termination, compensation adjustment, reassigning to
a different team, etc.

I always had to document and explain why I thought an employee deserved a
raise, or should not get a bonus, etc. Even as a director with ~20 reports I
don't have unlimited firing power and I still need to regroup with HR when it
comes to that.

Yes, of course you have some control, but it's not unchecked.

~~~
munchbunny
_I always had to document and explain why I thought an employee deserved a
raise, or should not get a bonus, etc. Even as a director with ~20 reports I
don 't have unlimited firing power and I still need to regroup with HR when it
comes to that._

Having that system in place isn't enough. You need that system to have teeth,
and you need to have someone with as much power as you who will review your
decisions and play devil's advocate.

In many teams I've seen with documentation and HR hurdles, they're not real
hurdles, they're just there so that there's a paper trail at all. That's
because:

1\. Most people in the company including the manager's boss and possibly even
most teammates of the employee don't see enough of the employee's work, so
it's often the manager's word vs. employee's. A bad manager will exploit that,
intentionally or unintentionally.

2\. When in doubt, the management hierarchy tends to side with the manager on
things, because they by default trust the manager more than the employee and
their view of the facts of the situation usually comes from the manager. A bad
manager will intentionally or unintentionally editorialize the facts on their
way up the hierarchy.

3\. HR tends to avoid making waves. The only time I've seen HR (excuse the
metaphor) plant the flag on the hill they intend to die on, it's because the
person being fired or managed out was a protected class of worker. I have
never seen HR push back just because the manager had insufficient reasons or
suspect reasoning. A bad manager will just shove decisions through HR,
intentionally or unintentionally.

In all of those places, there were systems in place where managers had to
document those decisions, but there wasn't _real accountability_ , so the
systems were nominal at best.

~~~
dragonwriter
> HR tends to avoid making waves. The only time I've seen HR (excuse the
> metaphor) plant the flag on the hill they intend to die on, it's because the
> person being fired or managed out was a protected class of worker. I have
> never seen HR push back just because the manager had insufficient reasons or
> suspect reasoning.

Second guessing management hiring/firing decisions that don't expose the
company to unacceptable risk of liability for labor law violations generally
isn't HR’s function.

~~~
munchbunny
Sure, it may not be HR's function. That's my point. Even with the paperwork,
HR effectively never acts as a counterbalance to a bad manager. That's why I
list it as one of the reasons why the paperwork that the grandparent poster
has to do is often part of a system that only keeps honest people honest.

When I think back to some of the most egregious workplace culture issues in
recent memory, such as Uber (Susan Fowler) or Riot Games, HR was, by the most
charitable interpretation, unable to stop obviously bad things from happening.
By a more literal read of the news at the time, HR was complicit.

------
Non24Throw
Early in my career, a manager once had me repeat to him that I would be
terminated if I failed to do X, like I was a 5-year-old.

X was referring to a technical implementation detail that he had zero
understanding of. He read something in a blog post I guess.

My reaction was to act like it was a fun joke or something. But inside, I
absolutely loathed him every second of every day until I quit, and now I take
great satisfaction knowing that I’ve surpassed him and would never do a thing
to help his stagnating career. (In other words, I’m holding an extremely petty
and lasting grudge.)

But my point is, he probably thought I was fine with all his joking. I always
laughed.

To expand on the article’s point, I think the biggest thing young managers
don’t understand is that people are going to be insincere to you as a basic
showing of respect and a basic desire for career preservation. They’re going
to smile and appear to enjoy you and laugh at your jokes and seem ok with
everything, much moreso than they otherwise would. So don’t make the mistake
of using their reactions to define your boundaries of what’s acceptable or
what’s funny, because it’s not a typical relationship, and you will invariably
believe that you are funnier than you are and that a wider range of
unacceptable behaviors are acceptable.

~~~
mjayhn
> To expand on the article’s point, I think the biggest thing young managers
> don’t understand is that people are going to be insincere to you as a basic
> showing of respect and a basic desire for career preservation. They’re going
> to smile and appear to enjoy you and laugh at your jokes and seem ok with
> everything, much moreso than they otherwise would.

I know it's hard and it took me until my 30s with a long career behind me but
I really wish people would be more vocal about their issues to their managers,
even if it's about their management style or them burning people out, etc.
There is a huge chance that you're not the only one with those feelings and
there might be people newer to the team or career that are afraid of speaking
up for things that they really truly disagree with, or just the people who get
anxious with confrontation.

~~~
Non24Throw
Your perception of the risks associated with providing that feedback isn’t the
same as everyone else’s.

When you’re young, and especially if you come from a lower income background
(where authority is treated as an absolute, and abuse of authority is
generally more common and accepted), it can seem very risky and feel very
unacceptable to give this kind of feedback to your manager.

It’s easy for me to agree with you now, but there are very different feelings
about this across different backgrounds and cultures, and there are plenty of
managers who would react harshly to this.

~~~
ironmagma
There is also tremendous internal pressure not to rock the boat, if you are in
a place with not much job mobility.

------
lis
This is along the lines of "Ha, taking half the day off, are we?" when
somebody leaves a little bit earlier than usual. It sounds like (just) a bad
joke, but it has severe consequences for your working relationship.

I get that it's tempting to make jokes when you start managing for your old
team members. Just accept the fact that you've switched positions and that
your relationship will change. It will only make it more awkward if you don't.

~~~
gowld
One of the few memories I have of my old job was my grandmanager saying
"leaving early today?" As I passed them in the hall at 5pm.

~~~
blowfish721
At my current position it's quite usual for my manager to ask why I'm still at
the office when it's 3:30PM on a friday. One of the reasons I'm still working
where I am.

~~~
mc32
If I were manager I would not even imply that I’m time aware either way,
unless there is an ongoing issue (someone staying too late often), (or someone
who is not putting in an effort). Otherwise why even bring up your
consciousness of time? It signals you’re tracking it one way or another.

Edit: for addressing burnout, overwork, etc., for me personally I would start
with bringing up the issue in team meetings.

Do we have enough resources, does anyone feel they’ve got too many tasks;
remind everyone (no singling out) that we’re not here to be superheroes, we’re
here to work in exchange for compensation and that you need a good work-life
balance in order to perform well at work. If it continues to be an issue after
several proclamations, then I could address individuals one on one.

~~~
jasonlotito
I'm a manager. Why bring this up? To watch for people working too much and
potential burn out. If people are working excessively, that's not good for
them or the company. I want to be able to rely on people. That means knowing
how much they can do. This means if they are putting in extra hours now, I
come to expect that level of output from them. This is not fair to them, and
not fair for the company. I don't want them burning out. I don't want them
feeling as if they have to work excessive hours.

This is also why I actively encourage taking time as needed and being flexible
when it comes to taking time off to take care of things during the day. It's a
non-issue. Finally, it's why I pay attention to taking vacations. I actively
encourage it. Often people feel the pressure of deadlines which are always
looming. Through my actions, they don't feel as if they can never take time
off.

Yes, I can see how you might feel if someone is watching your work hours. But
it's not a single thing. It's a continuous effort and comes from a
relationship you develop with the people you manage.

When I ask people why they are still working at a certain time, they know why
I'm asking. The net result has been really positive for my team.

~~~
squeaky-clean
As a non-manager I'd like to add it also normalizes healthy work hours to all
the employees. I've worked places where one or two devs outpaced everyone else
by a fair margin because of the hours they put in. They're usually very
skilled developers, but they're also putting in double the hours of anyone
else. Management of course always praises their output and calls them
"rockstars" or something, while ignoring the fact that they were in the office
until 9pm every day this week and have dozens of commits in the past month
that occured on Saturdays from Noon to 3AM.

Ignoring my personal feelings of how unhealthy I think this is for them in the
long run, I just simply don't want to feel like I'm competing with them. And
yeah not all workplaces feel like a competition, but in my experience the
places where you constantly hear "I was up until 10 fixing that bug, but I
finally solved it." "Nice work, rockstar!" do feel very competitive
internally.

Also as someone with lots of anxiety (which I feel is somewhat common among
developers) it really helps to hear that taking reasonable hours or a vacation
is not only allowed, but encouraged. I worked at a place that switched to
"unlimited vacation", but the process for getting it approved was so stressful
that the majority of the developers didn't take a vacation that year.

~~~
pc86
At the same time if they're willing to do 60 hours a week of work ( _not_ if
it takes them 60 hours to do 40 hours worth of work) they should probably be
pointed out positively in the team meeting for putting the effort in, and
privately told that it's probably not maintainable in the long term, and if
they need to work that much to meet their objectives they have too much work.

But I don't see anything wrong with praising more output under the right
circumstances. Everything ebbs and flows. As an IC there are times I go 3-4
days without a single commit. And there are times I have commits for 12 days
straight because I'm on a roll.

I've been fighting for an "unlimited with minimum" vacation policy for the
developers at my current job for a while now. It was fight to get the base
increased from 2 weeks to 3, and the system doesn't allow negative PTO
balances, which seems kind of draconian to me. But I'd love to see my
coworkers taking 4-5 weeks a year.

~~~
Thlom
So glad I live in a country with sane labor laws. We have mandated 4 weeks
vacation, most places have 5 weeks. The law actually says that the employee is
mandated to take 4 weeks vacation and the employer is mandated to make sure
the employee takes their vacation. It's possible to "transfer" vacation days
from one year to the next, but most people take their vacation every year.
Looking forward to July off.

------
sudhirj
The basic rule of comedy, or making jokes, which is amateur comedy, is that
you always punch up. It’s funny when you say “ha! you’re fired!” to your boss,
but never when you say it to someone you can actually fire.

Same reason why parents (should) never joke about punishment or disciplinary
action with their kids - when you have power and authority you also have a
responsibility not to belittle it. People will take your power over them only
as seriously as you take your responsibility towards them.

~~~
gowld
A US President once gave a speech joking about assassinating the Jonas
Brothers with a predator drone to protect his daughter from dating them.

[https://abcnews.go.com/WN/president-obama-tells-joke-
jonas-b...](https://abcnews.go.com/WN/president-obama-tells-joke-jonas-
brothers-draws-criticism/story?id=10548687)

(Not singling out that President, but the incident was shocking.)

~~~
brmgb
It's shocking but not because it's punching down on the Jonas brothers. The
part making people ill at ease is not Obama as a father talking about
murdering famous boys trying to date his daughters.

The actually shocking part is that the president views drone stricks, which is
to say extrajudicial murders in foreign countries, so casually he thinks it's
appropriate to make jokes about them.

~~~
mywittyname
I'm pretty sure Obama's administration pioneered the double-tap, where a drone
strike is followed up several minutes later by another one, which is intended
to kill those who are providing aid to the fallen. This is considered to be a
war crime. He caught flak contemporaneously for this issue, and not just by
Fox News, et al.

I'm generally a strong Obama supporter, but this is one area that I feel like
his actions were totally indefensible. I'm not surprised by his callous
attitude on the subject.

~~~
MagnumOpus
> I'm pretty sure Obama's administration pioneered the double-tap

I am pretty sure it is not a new technique - it was famously featured in the
2010 children's book Mockingjay, and I am sure Suzanne Collins didn't make it
up either.

Double-tap bombing are a staple of the asymmetric warfare arsenals of spec-ops
forces/guerilla/terrorists since at least the second world war, probably much
longer.

(Also, it is rather unlikely that Obama ordered the airforce to start double-
tapping, or even that he knew ahead of the fact, given the amount of
extrajudicial killing/assassination the US forces do every month...)

------
binarytox1n
I agree with the sentiment wholeheartedly - It’s easy for technical people
promoted to a people management role not to realize that their words now have
a significantly greater affect on morale.

The author did a good job expanding on situations that are now not funny, but
here’s another one that I see all the time:

Butts in seats. As a manager, anything you say about the clock, the vacancy
ratio of an employees chair, anything about time management really is not a
joke. It is making the employee feel as though the work they do is not valued
and that you expect them to be meat decorations prettying up an office chair.

I used to think that when I was promoted I could still be “one of the guys” -
and I try hard to get quality time with the team, joke around, etc - but over
time it’s become clear that I can never escape the new context in which my
words and actions are perceived.

I can no longer shit on bad code like I used to - I now need to discover how
we ended up with the deficiency, plan to correct it, and assure the rest of
the engineers that we _do_ have high quality standards we need to live up to.

~~~
groby_b
Yep. And it only gets worse as your scope grows.

There comes a point where you'll say something like "Huh, that looks
interesting, I wonder what would happen if X", just because you still have
some engineering thinking left in you, and three weeks later you'll get word
that somebody spun up a working group to investigate X.

If you ever wondered why manager emails to a large team always look super-
formal? We've touched that particular live wire, and would rather not do that
again.

~~~
JoshTriplett
> There comes a point where you'll say something like "Huh, that looks
> interesting, I wonder what would happen if X", just because you still have
> some engineering thinking left in you, and three weeks later you'll get word
> that somebody spun up a working group to investigate X.

This is somewhat avoidable. You can communicate this to your team. You can
make it clear you invite feedback and corrections, and demonstrating that in
practice by responding well when people take you up on that. You can ask
questions in a way that invites answers. You can make your relative level of
expertise clear in an area when you ask questions.

And on the occasions when this still happens, sometimes it'll be because your
musings sparked an idea in someone, and _they_ thought it was a good idea to
investigate X.

~~~
ryandrake
I worked in a place once where, when you met with any of the senior execs, you
had to have 2-3 notetakers present, so that every word the guy said could be
jotted down and turned into actions. Everything that came out of an exec's
mouth had to be turned into a project, because nobody was willing to stick
their neck out and try to distinguish between "random musings" and a "command
to do this thing". It was a very toxic environment. It was kind of like those
guys always following Kim Jong Il around with notepads recording everything
Dear Leader says.

~~~
camjohnson26
Reminds me of the sticky bear sketch from Silicon Valley
[https://youtu.be/uAxAVusStCg](https://youtu.be/uAxAVusStCg)

------
dfxm12
Another thing: don't compare people in your team to recently let-go people.

As a survivor after a series of lay-offs, I took over a project from someone
who was recently laid off (let's call him Joe), got asked a really vague
question about it and responded, IMO reasonably, that clarification was
needed. All I got back was "That's a _Joe_ -type of answer" (emphasis theirs).

I don't think it was funny, and it certainly didn't help my understanding of
the problem. I brought this up in a meeting and was accused of being "too
snippy lately" shortly after. It's the type of thing where if didn't already
have 5 years of enjoying my role, I'd probably be looking for a new one.

~~~
hu3
You're not alone. I'd be quite unconformable to hear that. Sorry that you have
to experience such awkward conversation and be called "too snippy" after
complaining about it on top of that.

------
steelframe
I've always had a really dry sense of humor. When I moved into a management
role, my director took me aside and said something to the effect of, "I have a
dry sense of humor too. When I started managing people I had to build a filter
between the jokes that pop into my head and the words that escape my mouth."

This was from my first year of managing when I had one screw-up that led
people who overheard the interaction to report it. The joke was something
like, "Oh hey, the start time for our meeting has already passed, and here we
are still working. Why do you hate meeting with me?" In hindsight, it's now
obvious to me that when there's a power differential, the other person can
easily be left wondering, "Does my boss really think I don't like him? Oh my
god, I can't ever be late to another meeting with him again!"

I'm now years down the road from that, and I cringe at some of the things I
said when I was new to the role. I'm glad I've had time to learn some lessons
in communication as a manager before COVID-19, because now that interactions
have been scoped down to text chats, emails, and occasional video calls,
people have to make inferences from a much smaller set of signals. I'm having
to work twice as hard to be very direct and clear about what I want people to
understand, and I have to go out of my way to deliberately ensure that
interactions, both one-on-one and as a group, happen as frequently as is
necessary to maintain the health of the individuals and of the team.

~~~
dogman144
Good example of how one can grow into a leadership role. About 99% of the
basic skills required to lead can be taught or learned.

------
imsofuture
An _experienced_ CEO joined a mid-sized company that I worked at a few years.
His opening line, in his first all hands was a joke about firing the people
who were a few minutes late to the call. It was obviously a joke, but you
really can't make a worse impression and he was gone within a year.

~~~
jbay808
I thought these people are paid multiple millions because they're supposed to
be "top talent"?

~~~
papito
They are paid millions because once you win the birth lottery, and if you are
tall and loud enough, failing upwards becomes the default that is very hard to
beat, even if you try.

And it's really, really hard to learn from your mistakes unless someone calls
you out on your shit, which almost never happens to these people.

------
ashtonkem
I find that there are two aspects of good management that aren’t talked about
enough.

First, power. Managers have explicit and implicit power, and you should
understand both. Joking about firing someone is an abuse of your explicit
power, but you should also be careful about excessive use of your ability to
issue direct orders. Similarly, be aware how the implicit power of a manager
affects conversations, and do little things like vote last to give others a
chance to speak _before_ they know where you’ve landed.

Secondly, good management is a lot of emotional labor. A portion of the
emotional well being of your team is your problem, especially around things
related to work itself. If managing is emotional labor, then do try to not
make your job harder by freaking your directs out.

------
subhro
I am really surprised one has to write a blog post about this.

I am not a manager, but here is a question for managers, have you or anyone
you know, joked about firing someone?

In my opinion, that would be incredibly cruel and stupid.

~~~
turdnagel
Did you read the article? People make mistakes. They might try to break the
tension by cracking a joke without realizing the effect it will have.

~~~
subhro
Yes I did. The point I was trying to make was, this really shouldn’t come to
anyone naturally. It is like writing a blog post about not bullying anyone.
People still do it, but I think those people are psychologically unstable,
should be isolated and needs help.

~~~
city41
In the context of one team member gets promoted to manage the rest of the
team, I can see how this type of "joke" could happen. If the team was really
close and everyone was friends, it's easy to keep the friend mindset and make
what you think is just a dumb joke without really thinking it through.

------
DevX101
While we're on this topic, managers don't invite your direct reports for one-
on-one meeting out of the blue with no agenda. I've heard multiple people tell
me they assume they're about to be fired.

~~~
greenshackle2
This goes for HR too. HR at an old job invited me and a colleague to a meeting
with a nondescript title. I thought my colleague must have some issue with me.
But no, they wanted us to _draw our vision for the company_ with colorful
markers.

~~~
olau
Haha, reading this made my day.

~~~
greenshackle2
You have to imagine the scene. I walk to the meeting. Sweaty palms. I re-play
every interaction I've had with that colleague in my head, trying to think of
what I could have done that offended her. I can't think of anything, which is
somehow worse, because I have _no idea_ what I'm walking into.

Then HR rep shows up with a box of markers, paper, and are like, "we're doing
drawings!" and I'm just like, "we're what now".

After talking to her, my colleague also thought she was in trouble somehow.

------
esotericn
The reverse situation is interesting.

"I mean, you could just sack me if it goes wrong" is a personal go-to.

Built an emergency fund at age 20 and stopped giving a fuck, it's just
business.

Obligatory "I'm not American, we don't die on the street if we break our leg
whilst unemployed here" I guess.

I find dark humour amusing in general because it's just like, yeah, you
actually could wake up tomorrow with a brick in the back of your head. Live as
if it matters today. Important now more than ever.

------
jerf
Similarly, marriage protip: Don't joke about divorces. Even if you think your
partner can handle it. Mine can and we still don't do it, as policy. It's a
known policy, too; we mentioned it to each other before (briefly, a long time
ago, not as some big event).

This is certainly far from "the one key to a happy marriage!", but it's a
brick in the house.

It generally fits into the larger social IQ element of thinking about the
worst way someone may take something you communicate. This is a particularly
easy place to see how you may have felt it was a light-hearted joke, but
someone else could easily take it entirely seriously, or as a passive-
aggressive "ha ha only serious".

~~~
tinyhouse
You mean not to joke about it in front of other people? I agree of course. But
between you two? seriously... A married couple should be able to talk freely,
including about things they don't like. No need to create policies in advance
like it's a work relationship between employee/manager. I would worry if my
married life looked like a work relationship.

~~~
notdonspaulding
As a man who's been married for 15+ years, I would absolutely advise young
couples to consider the disciplines and policies they expect their
relationship to abide by in much the same way managers and employees discuss
their policies and procedures. "Talk freely", yes, but also, as this article
so correctly points out, understand the effect your language has on your
relationships (direct reports, friends, spouses, family members) and make sure
to not treat heavyweight issues with an air of flippancy or triviality.

My wife and I decided, before we got married, that divorce was off the table
for us. Understanding that it is not even an option for me (and
trusting/believing my spouse that it's not an option for her) gives us so much
stability to launch into uncomfortable topics and conversations with each
other. If we got into a habit of treating that topic lightly, I could easily
see many instances over the past decade where life has gotten hard, we would
be in the middle of a stressful situation, and we would have doubted each
other's commitment.

There's a broad range of experience out there in marriages, so it's likely
possible to have that same stability while regularly joking about divorce, it
just seems like a foolish thing to risk so huge a downside (actual divorce)
for so little an upside (getting to joke about divorce).

Bringing this back to the article, that's the same idea at play. For the
manager to restrain themselves from a few key topics which are inappropriate
for them to joke about, they avoid a huge minefield of stressful issues for
them and their direct reports.

~~~
tinyhouse
> My wife and I decided, before we got married, that divorce was off the table
> for us.

Well, you can decide whatever you want before you get married. People change,
things happen, it's called life...

~~~
User23
Catholics believe that marriage ends only with death. While obviously a civil
divorce is possible, the actual sacramental marriage is indissoluble. One of
the consequences of this belief is that Catholic couples are considerably less
likely to get a civil divorce than other Christians or atheists[1].

[1] [https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholics-
continue-t...](https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholics-continue-to-
have-lowest-divorce-rates-report-finds)

~~~
vkou
Except that Catholics also practice annulment, which is, for all intents and
purposes, a divorce (That you carry out through the church, as opposed to
secular courts.)

Instead of breaking up a marriage, they claim, post-facto, that it was not a
'true[1] marriage', and is, therefore, invalid in the eyes of God and men.

This is a loophole big enough to drive a bus through, and is practiced quite
frequently.

[1] The technical term is sacramented.

~~~
User23
Any number of factors can cause an attempted marriage to fail. Impaired
consent is one major one. Unwillingness to have children is another. Even
entering marriage with the expectation that divorce is possible means no
sacramental marriage was formed. I suppose one can choose to view those
factors as loopholes and I imagine some poorly formed Catholics do just that.
That said, a validly celebrated marriage cannot be annulled.

Whether or not tribunals are erroneously issuing declarations of nullity is a
question I don’t know the answer to. In any event a Catholic who tries to game
the system this way would be well advised to consider that God won’t be
fooled.

------
rsweeney21
I know the tech community likes to hate on company policies and bureaucracy,
but this is exactly why you need SOME rules - to protect employees from bad
managers.

If you have a process in place that managers must follow in order to terminate
an employee, employees don't have to be afraid of tasteless jokes about
firing. If there is a process that involves the employee (like a PIP), you
also don't have to be afraid that you'll be blindsided with a termination.

Same thing applies to "unlimited" vacation. I know this is an unpopular
opinion, but when you get rid of your vacation policy, you are transferring
all handling of time-off to your front line managers. My experience with
unlimited vacation at Netflix was poor because I had a manager that made
little comments here and there that made me feel guilty about taking time off.
If I had days off that I accrued then I would know exactly what I'm entitled
to take.

I wrote a blog post about why we got rid of our unlimited vacation policy at
our company.

[https://www.facetdev.com/blog/posts/why-we-ditched-our-
unlim...](https://www.facetdev.com/blog/posts/why-we-ditched-our-unlimited-
vacation-plan/)

~~~
MAGZine
Pardon me saying so, though the base vacation policy seems middling in
generosity. It strikes me that maybe the unlimited policy didn't work for
facet because of that.

essentially: including company holidays in PTO calculation is lame. It's
essentially forced PTO, not vacation. I'd consider your vacation policy to be
about three weeks, not five, which is "just ok." It's enough for a two-week
vacation and some time off for christmas. If your unlimited vacation policy
expectation was actually three weeks of vacation, then I could see why it
didn't really work for you.

Overall, I think metered is better than unmetered if enough volume is given. I
don't know how hard Facet negotiates on extra PTO, but from the baseline
offering, I think I could take more in unlimited systems.

~~~
rsweeney21
I agree that 3 weeks of vacation isn't leading the industry by any means.

Like I mention in the blog post, we are a small bootstrapped company. It's the
best we think we can offer right now because we aren't subsidized by VC money.

------
lmilcin
Yeah. Also, don't joke about leaving the company.

I have been passed over for promotion because of a complete joke remark like
that made in presence of a person with whom I did not have very close working
relationship.

\---

Making a joke about firing your subordinate would require perfect
understanding of the state of mind of the person you are talking to. As a
manager your job is to understand it is not possible to understand exactly how
your words are going to be interpreted. Thus, telling a joke about firing your
subordinate is a sign of bad judgment at best.

Another responsibility of the manager is to ensure his/her team is productive.
This can't happen when people feel unsafe about their financial situation.
Strike two.

There is absolutely nothing good that can come from telling a joke about
firing someone. Even if the person you are joking about completely understands
you are joking, somebody else might overhear the conversation leading to bad
results. Another reason to treat it as a sign of bad judgement.

In general, as a manager, never say things that you don't mean. When people
know they can depend on every word you say it makes every word this more
powerful and better tool to accomplish your goals.

~~~
woutr_be
> Yeah. Also, don't joke about leaving the company.

One of my personal rules is to not even discuss leaving a company with any
colleague. It’s far to easy for this information to leak back to your manager.
Even if your colleagues had good intentions bring it up, the fact that you
didn’t says enough.

------
akamia
I would add that anyone who is planning on moving into management should also
avoid joking like this.

I once worked with an engineer who had a lead that would joke all the time
about firing him. As a lead he had no authority to fire anyone but it was well
known that he wanted to transition into a management position. Within two
weeks of the lead actually becoming a manager, the engineer left the company
for another job.

I remember speaking with the engineer about it after he left and he told me
that he knew it was a joke but it still made him slightly uneasy. He wondered
whether there was some grain of truth in the jokes. He wanted to make sure
that he was leaving on his terms.

The take away that I took from that was if you're going to go down the
management path, consider everyone a potential direct report and communicate
accordingly. The joke that you're making as peers can take on a different
meaning the day you become their manager.

------
pmichaud
I am going to be contrarian here, because this advice is misleadingly
"obvious," and almost everyone is going to reflexively agree with it, because
who wants to be the asshole making uncomfortable "jokes" about people's
livelihood?

But.

Counter signaling is a powerful tool in the social toolbox, and it works
exactly when uncertainty and discomfort may be present. The problem isn't the
counter-signaling, it's the poor social models and actual lack of trust and
common knowledge between the people.

I think this advice is practical because any given manager is going to create
a mediocre-at-best environment, but in my perfect world there would be enough
trust and common knowledge about exactly where everyone stands that a joke
like this would be a nonissue.

That means in my perfect world managers would be better at creating that.

The reason I am saying this is that if you go away from this thread with the
idea "joking about serious things is bad," then your job is done when you
simply don't do the bad thing. But if the lesson is actually "you don't have
the skill necessary to create the safety and clarity on your team to make a
joke like this and have it be fine" then you have affordance to maybe be
better at creating safety and clarity--at least you have a trailhead to start
looking.

------
austincheney
Perhaps the greatest reason why joking about job security is so bad is that it
forces an irreversible wedge between the employee and the employer or team.

If a person believes their job is in peril they lose focus of their work and
shift focus into matters of personal security. People tend to over emphasize
the nature of their employment as a matter of personal identity,
accomplishment, and life progress. When those things are in peril they become
more important problem to fix than their assigned responsibilities, work/life
balance, or even familial relationships which can snowball into further
problems. While this is frequently more a matter of personal vanity than
finances the problem is still there and it’s socially contagious, which is
toxic.

Counter intuitively I have found many people are less emotionally troubled
about losing their jobs when the harm is purely financial. That isn’t to say
it is free of stress, but rather there are fewer panic moments.

~~~
gwbas1c
> Counter intuitively I have found many people are less emotionally troubled
> about losing their jobs when the harm is purely financial. That isn’t to say
> it is free of stress, but rather there are fewer panic moments.

Exactly. I was at a job for nine years, ready for a change, and honestly
hoping for a severance package. (Finding a good job is time consuming, so I
didn't want to do it on the side and surprise the people I worked with for
years with two weeks notice.)

When the higher up delivered the news to me, I had to reassure him!
Fortunately, everything was done with dignity, I had plenty of time to finish
my project and transfer knowledge.

------
dogman144
Oh yeah totally agree.

Leadership roles mean some tasks become 'only you' tasks.

Part of that is a radically changed power dynamic. Asking someone to pick up a
coffee for you suddenly isn't just a question they can feel safe saying no to
- favors aren't favors anymore. Don't put your direct reports in that
position, ever.

That Band of Brothers scene w/ Winters and Compton about playing poker with
the troops actually covers this idea really well.

------
kryogen1c
This misses the larger lesson: separate your personal and professional
interactions, especially with people at different levels of responsibility.

Its a hallmark of a junior manager, someone who doesn't know where the line
for their authority is. its trying to coax your subordinates into giving you
power over them - but you already have it. its a form of cowardice, of
uncomfortability. the opposite of this is the manager who gives all their
power to THEIR manager, ie "idk man, this doesnt make any sense to me either
but thats the way corporate wants it done." well if all you are is a
mouthpiece for corporate, then what good are you?

------
cosmodisk
This is a good advice. I did this a few times(everyone involved understand the
situations as jokes and had a good laugh+ it's England,so insta-fired almost
doesn't exist), however what's funny for one,is outright scarry to another. I
had enough situations where people screw up and think they'll be fired, while
nobody is even remotely considering it, so it's better to avoid those kind of
jokes altogether. A good rule is that religion, politics, immigration,and the
work itself should be left out from any professional setting.

------
SwiftyBug
Yeah. One manager I worked with used to "joke" like this towards a specific
coworker in a weekly basis. It was never funny and she always seemed upset by
the "joke". It didn't take long before I found out how red that flag was.
Worst manager I've ever had the misfortune to work with. He's been fired
recently and I couldn't feel more relieved. Not having him around makes
working at our company so much less stressful.

------
khazhoux
As an aside, I think it's best that whenever someone is promoted to manager,
they then manage a _different_ team, so that their previous peers are not
suddenly their direct reports. It's better for everyone that way. The new
manager doesn't have to struggle through authority issues with their previous
teammates/friends, and the team isn't disadvantaged by having a new manager in
whom they confided info they maybe wouldn't have otherwise shared.

Also, on the main topic of the article: personally I seriously limit _all_ my
jokes around my team... and also around anyone I could reasonably suspect of
moving to my team in the next two years (you gotta always think ahead). IRL
most people would describe me as very funny and always joking, and my humor
often tends dark. At work, I think a lot of people would describe me as
humorless, or amusing at best. This is on purpose. I don't subscribe to the
"bring you whole self" theory of modern workplace. I think it's important for
the people who entrust their careers in me to see me as serious, thoughtful,
and decisive -- not as a goofball whose proudest moments include 40K-upvote
memes on reddit!

~~~
totaldex
While this may fix the issue you pointed out, it gets rid of a crucial benefit
of managing a team you're familiar with: context and trust.

By the time a manager gets promoted, they often have enough context to
functional well at that level. They may have built a network within their
organization, have seen the product or technology go through several
iterations, and developed a good understanding of how their team members work.
In turn, this makes them a better manager.

New managers have to work hard to gain these skills, and incur great cost in
doing so.

------
OliverJones
This is REALLY good advice. When you become a manager, you suddenly become
all-seeing, all-knowing, and all-powerful about peoples' jobs, pay, bonuses,
benefits, time off, assignments, promotions, all that stuff.

You're actually not all-seeing, all-knowing, and all-powerful. You're only
part of a management team. But you will NEVER convince your direct reports
you're not. Even if you just started being a manager today.

Therefore:

* DO NOT JOKE, ever, even once, about anyone's job, pay, bonus, time off, or other terms of employment. Or your own.

* DO NOT MAKE PROMISES about people's pay, etc, unless you ALREADY KNOW you can keep them. Do not EVER say "I will give you a promotion / raise / bonus / award." Only say, "Hey, you got a raise! Good work."

* do not even say "I'll try to get you a raise" because then if you can't deliver, the person will always wonder why you didn't do it. Even if what you said wasn't a promise, it sounds like one.

People pay a lot of attention to things their managers say, and they NEVER
FORGET things that threaten them or promise them something. Peoples' terms of
employment are an irony-free and snark-free zone.

~~~
Hamuko
> _do not even say "I'll try to get you a raise" because then if you can't
> deliver, the person will always wonder why you didn't do it. Even if what
> you said wasn't a promise, it sounds like one._

But I don't really need to wonder why I didn't get a raise even if my direct
manager tried to get me one and it's quite simple: upper management doesn't
appreciate my work as much as my direct manager does.

------
agensaequivocum
Seems pretty self-evident. Reminds me of that office episode where Michael
pretends to fire Pam and she reacts as any normal person would expect.

------
heyflyguy
Great advice, also along those lines are never joking about pay or quality of
work.

There will come a time when you have to talk about these things and you need
the other person to take you very seriously.

------
mtippett
Absolutely, it's a power play and innappropriate.

I worked for a manager that would use "I exited his ass" as a badge of pride.
That shows no respect for the person, and it also shows no due diligence and
hiring, mentoring or coaching that individual.

We all have our own particular biases in how we measure our own personal
success, and as leaders we also apply our biases to how we interpret other's
success. As a leader who has control of someone's livelihood, you should
ensure a tempered layering of (1) expectations, (2) feedback, (3)
understanding, and (4) mutual understanding of fit.

No one should be surprised that they are getting fired or getting on a
performance plan. The silent behavior is a tell, but it is ultimately unfair
to the employee.

Bad hires do happen, but it's usually pretty clear and pretty mutual when that
happens.

------
vulcan01
[https://www.npr.org/transcripts/807758704](https://www.npr.org/transcripts/807758704)

> demonstrated how people are often oblivious to the power that they have over
> others

Not just managers...

------
mwfunk
In a broader sense, humor that punches down never really works, even if the
person using it has the best intentions. The examples in the article are
useful because they're clearly intended to defuse tension, not to punch down
or make anyone feel bad, but it just doesn't work. It's an example of how hard
it is to intuitively see things from other people's perspectives. We interpret
and judge ourselves from the inside looking out, but we (and some people in
particular) look way different from the outside looking in and understanding
the difference is a lifelong effort.

------
downerending
Somewhat related: I had a job once where my manager unintentionally disclosed
to me that several of my colleagues didn't like me (unclear whether for valid
reasons or not). I quit almost immediately, which came as quite a surprise to
him, and I believe he regretted.

At another job, I had a manager put a list of (fairly spurious) complaints on
paper that went to HR. He seemed rather shocked when I gave notice.

If you want to be a good manager, you really have to put yourself in the other
guy's shoes and think about how they're going to feel about what you're doing.

------
VikingCoder
Band of Brothers:

"Never put yourself in a position where you can take from these men."

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyLHIobW0HQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyLHIobW0HQ)

------
Robin_Message
Manager Tools has a great bit of advice from this vein, where they tell new
managers to imagine that, when interacting with former peers, they have a
post-it note on their foreheads with the words "I can fire you". Gimmicky, but
makes the point that the power dynamic has shifted, and it's there even if you
try not to recognise it.

No affiliation and it is a bit dogmatic, but it's a great podcast:
[https://www.manager-tools.com/](https://www.manager-tools.com/)

------
iguanayou
Right out of the Michael Scott playbook
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAxtVMuDYD8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAxtVMuDYD8)

------
AdrianB1
Never joke about firing people, but don't hesitate to do it. That is the
complete advice.

Joking about firing people never brought anything good; firing people when
needed, that is essential for organizations. There is a lengthy explanation in
this: "Why our generals were more successful in World War II than in Korea,
Vietnam or Iraq/Afghanistan"
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxZWxxZ2JGE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxZWxxZ2JGE))

------
wayoutthere
How about we extend this to sarcasm in general. It’s super easy to not
understand when to take sarcasm seriously, especially if you have team members
on the autism spectrum. Furthermore, sarcasm is often rooted in negative
feelings about yourself or others. It’s just generally a poor communication
tool, which is tolerable if you’re a worker making gallows humor with other
workers, but way too easily misunderstood if you’re not on the bottom of the
hierarchy.

------
daniel-thompson
In general, internally-directed sarcasm is not a trait that people greatly
respect in leaders.

------
Hamuko
I imagine this is less of a thing in countries where you need just cause to
fire people.

~~~
TomMarius
No, they coerce you into leaving yourself in these countries.

------
vvanders
Oh haha, memories.

We had a co-founder who pulled an "April 2nd" joke about 1/3 of the team being
let go because of a non-poaching agreement between their old publisher and the
studio. Kept it going for about 15 minutes until he finally let on that it was
a joke.

They got him back pretty good, stuck an annoy-a-tron in his office for ~6
months. We'd all deny hearing it when it chirped in meetings or during
standup.

~~~
throwaway9482
Ok that sounds like a really funny company to work at

~~~
dang
Could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We
ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users
need some identity for other users to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have
no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum.
[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20community%20identity...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20community%20identity&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0)

------
apocalyptic0n3
Even if you're not a manager, do not underestimate your position. I'm on a
small team (<10 devs, <50 employees total) and I'm one of the longest tenured
employees and wear just about every hat possible at the company. I am not a
manager and I report to the same person every other developer does. I also do
not have the authority to fire someone and have never once suggested we do it.
But I have a heavy influence on the direction of our team and company, am
involved in the hiring process, handle most of our development rule and
workflow decisions, etc. Just because I can't fire anyone, doesn't mean other
people know that.

A few years ago, back before I had even half my current responsibilities, I
was sitting with one of the other devs trying to figure out a bug that made it
into production and they asked "How bad is it?" and I
offhandedly/sarcastically said "You're going to need a new job" without even
looking at them. At that point, those kinds of things were pretty commonly
said by devs to one another. But a few hours later, I got a frantic message on
Slack asking if they had been fired. They had apparently spent the last 3
hours in a state of high tension thinking they'd be fired by EOD. At that
point, I realized my role was ambiguous enough that I couldn't joke about it
anymore.

And if you're in a position like me where you have a lot of responsibilities
and influence, you need to be aware of how you interact with other teams too.
I've had instances where I've gone over to talk to someone in marketing about
something and they jokingly ask "What I'd do this time?" and I'll respond with
"You're in trouble" and immediately go into what I wanted to talk about, which
in most cases is a greeting you'd ignore as obviously ridiculous, especially
when followed up with me asking questions about how to best optimize something
to help you do your job. But I've had it happen more times than I care to
admit where they'll interrupt me a few seconds later and ask if they're going
to be fired.

Moral of the story: If you are at any elevated position, never joke about
someone losing their job. It might seem okay when you're moreorless equals in
the hierarchy, but it causes undue amounts of stress for others when you
aren't (even when you have no authority over their job). It's just not worth
the stress for them and doesn't help your relationship with them either.

------
KineticLensman
The joking dynamic depends a lot on whether we are talking about technical
leadership versus line management, a distinction that occurs in some matrix-
structured organisations. I.e., where people are grouped into resource teams
for admin reasons and are separately deployed to projects. So an individual
will generally have at least two people who can ‘tell them what to do’, namely
his line manager (who might hassle them to complete training, performance
reviews, etc) and the tech lead of the project(s) to which they are assigned.

Before retiring I was a tech lead for multiple projects over three decades, so
was used to having a ‘leader’ relationship with many of my colleagues, some of
whom were good friends. But for a two year period I took up line management
responsibilities for the resource team of grey beards I belonged to. This was
much, much more stressful than the tech leading. Not because of having to fire
them but because I was now the corporate voice who had to explain why they
weren’t getting a good pay rise, again. Most of them knew it was my role and
not me so didn’t take it personally but in one case it completely destroyed a
friendship with one of my team who was particularly bitter about certain
issues.

In terms of ‘joking about firing people’ – my close friends in the group and I
evolved a protocol whereby conversation that took place on our regular
lunchtime walks was deemed to be ‘normal me’ speaking as opposed to
‘management-me’, and where I could share jokes. The only exception to this
stays-in-Vegas rule was with one guy who was a known joker: I made a
‘management sign’ that had ‘No!’ printed on one side and ‘Stop!’ on the other.
This was used fairly often and was viewed positively, especially when the
individual concerned was being particularly distracting in the open plan
office. It also humanised the management role, especially with my friends who
knew that I was not a corporate clone.

------
rsynnott
... Huh. I would have thought this was too obvious to need saying, really. I'm
kind of amazed that anyone would do this.

------
fortyrod
A similar mistake is to include your reports in speculation about potential
termination of yourself. Especially if they are "The Talent", and you are not
so much. I had a non-technical manager (sales background, and probably not bad
at it, actually) who somehow ended up in charge of a crack engineering team as
part of a re-org. When things were going badly with upper-management, she'd go
with "Our heads are all on the chopping block together! You'd better perform
or else!" This happened several times. Meanwhile, we were all thinking "Nope.
It's just your head on the chopping block, friend." She was gone in a year.

Edit: I should say that the "we" above was the senior engineers. There were
some more junior team members who were quite terrified by this speech, until
we explained to them how talent (usually) works.

------
KingOfCoders
If you had to fire individuals in the past or 80% of your department due to
economic reasons (what to tell people if they ask 'why me?') then you wouldn't
joke about it. It's not fun. Obviously not for the person 'fired' but also not
for a manager - at least not for me.

------
DecoPerson
I grew up believing having thick skin was really important. I took this to
heart, and now nothing phases me (and I’ve been in a variety of nasty
situations that confirmed this).

I realize this is not the norm, but I wish it was. Avoiding trigger words and
peoples’ sensitivities is frustrating and further complicates complex
discussions. I’m not saying we should be robots. I still have feelings. If
someone I love shows me that I’ve let them down, I feel absolutely terrible.

Thick skin + freedom of speech (but not freedom of information or freedom to
shout) + people being generally genuinely respectful (as in tough-love) = a
pretty good civilization in my eyes

Buuut I accept we live in a world with sensitive people and as such must
continue to be considerate of their feelings. At least it’s not illegal to
trigger people!

~~~
gowld
Thick skin is a fantastic skill to develop in yourself and others.

Amusing yourself by testing how thick other people's skin is not.

Legal doesn't equal good.

------
tobyhinloopen
Also, don’t talk shit about my colleagues behind their back.

------
yasinaydin
I just have this joke done to me, at my new company, on my 2nd week, just a
while ago. I hid my feelings well, but that second and since then, my bond
with my company reduced to half.

I don't have much opportunities around because it's a small city and because
of COVID, so I kept shut.

------
artsyca
No matches for the words 'shirt' or 'tie' or 'dress' in any of the comments.

This probably means nothing to anyone here but it used to be auspicious for
people promoted into management to actually dress the part not out of prideful
superiority but modesty and respect and and acknowledgement of this duty and
responsibility.

Think of it as a flag in software.

A lot of the conversations we have are already on the wrong level when it's a
manager in jeans looking like it's his day off but what would anyone know
about this when comfort reigns supreme and we're all at best only half
invested in anything we do professionally.

If you plan to down vote this rather than doing it in the silent way, put a
reasoning for your action or move on.

------
pininja
The damaging feelings a joke about firing someone can cause complex team
dynamics issues.

If anyone is unfortunate enough to be in this situation it’s important to
recognize its normal to feel <insert any feeling> because feels are always
legitimate. If comfortable, you should ask to listen to your peers thoughts
and feelings to get a deeper understanding of the jokes effects.

Together, you could provide direct feedback to the manager of “when you said
<insert joke> that made me feel <inser feeling>. I wish in the future you
<insert desired action>”. Hopefully they accept the feedback and you can
monitor their actions going forward, if they don’t accept... we don’t have the
ability to control people, but you can be on the same page.

------
micheljansen
This also holds true for the more general case: be very very careful with
jokes, especially sarcastic ones, whenever there is any kind of power
differential. The response really is very different than from an equal peer.
Just think how these come across from a colleague or from your boss:

"Who created this piece of crap? Haha!" "Well, I guess you will have to wake
up earlier to finish it haha" "Calling it a day already today?" "Oh yeah this
is pretty much the quality I expect from you haha"

Humour can be a very powerful tool in a leader's toolbox but it takes a really
really good relationship and a culture of emotional safety to work. When in
doubt I'd always play it safe.

------
uberdru
Another one is never fire anyone who is not on a CAP plan of some sort. Unless
of course, they do the bad stuff. That way everyone who is not on a CAP plan
knows that they are doing fine, and don't suffer the anxiety that arises from
inevitable ambiguity.

------
bergstromm466
Advice to New Policemen: Don't Joke About Shooting People

Reminds me of Manwhohasitall

[https://twitter.com/manwhohasitall/status/125901549630264524...](https://twitter.com/manwhohasitall/status/1259015496302645249)

------
tinyhouse
Another advice - don't criticize your employee in front of others. Whatever
you have to say leave to 1:1. I once had a manager who criticized employees in
stand-ups in front of the team if they didn't finish something they were
supposed to.

------
idoby
So much drama. If a manager in your org can fire good-standing employees on a
whim without scrutiny from the rest of the org, quit now. In any other org, go
ahead and joke with your buddies, people need the icebreakers. Just maybe not
more than once.

------
elchin
Leadership Strategy and Tactics by Jocko Willink has a great chapter about how
to act when you became a manager of your former peers. Joking around is
definitely not the way to go to establish yourself as a leader.

------
clairity
> "They try to break the tension with self deprecation and poking fun at the
> newfound responsibility. That 'haha I’m the bureaucrat now what a joke this
> is' attitude"

this bit is more insightful than the title. there was even a _friends_ (and
many others) episode about this.

the power imbalance is a real concern, and makes the concerns and empathies
complicated, but as with all relational issues, it goes both ways. be
understanding both ways. be resilient both ways. it doesn't mean cut off and
throw away a piece of your soul to fit the ideal of corporate sterility.

------
bob1029
I would stay away from the kinds of places where this conversation even needs
to be had in the first place. This type of antagonizing behavior is
unprofessional and unsuitable in any industry. This is the sort of thing you
should have figured out by the time you got out of college if you were paying
attention.

On HN, I would much rather see headlines regarding "How I improved the daily
grind of my direct reports" rather than what is effectively "please dont set
the office on fire, that is naughty".

------
ok_coo
Don't joke about firing people. Don't joke about using a certain tech or
infrastructure because it lets you hire cheaper people. Don't joke about
people's housing or what car they own. Don't joke about how people don't have
options to go work somewhere else. Don't say to your employee, "let's meet
first thing on Monday morning" on a Friday afternoon without being explicit
that it's nothing dire.

Don't. You have enormous power over people's lives. Act like it.

------
wallflower
You are not truly a manager until you lay-off or fire someone “face to face“.
I knew a manager who would not do the difficult task of laying off someone. I
kind of lost respect for them.

------
tonymet
I would generalize this as don't gossip or speak negatively about other team
members.

When you talk to your staff, assume that whatever they hear about another dev,
they are thinking about themselves. If you say "so and so is slow", they will
possibly worry you think that about them.

There is room for getting feedback among members. Like "I noticed so and so
had challenges shipping X on time, what do you think was the cause?" – this is
subject-focused, impersonal and helps with growth

------
fennecfoxen
I've had a manager who made it work. It was deliberately a running joke, it
was one of a family of running jokes with similar delivery techniques, it was
never aimed at any new hires, and most of this manager's direct reports
"fired" him as well, on a regular basis.

It is reasonable to regard even this particular situation with caution, but I
mention it anyway, to highlight the patterns that did make it work, that you
can regard the absence of these patterns in your own situation.

------
Insanity
People must have had some bad managers if this needed saying. You'd never joke
about someones work or work status, this seems obvious to me. Sad that it's
not. :/

------
chooseaname
> When people get promoted to manager their former peers become direct
> reports. It’s awkward.

This is why in, for example, retail, you will see people promoted, but to
another location.

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robotron
My new manager did this to me recently in a group meeting. Luckily, I have a
thick skin and I'm sure he was just awkwardly trying to fit in.

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alexandercrohde
I think a good parallel would be how would you feel as a manager if your
employee jokes about quitting to go get more money somewhere else?

~~~
amznthrowaway5
That's not a good parallel at all, the manager still has the real power and
can fire/PIP the employee for making that joke.

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Carpetsmoker
I find the responses to this interesting; several mangers have made some jokes
like this over the years (it was even something of a running joke with my last
one) and I never felt threatened. Perhaps because in my country you have
employment protection laws so you can't just terminate someone's employment,
which is rather different from many US states.

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hashkb
My first job had drunken happy hours complete with fake firings by the
Director of Engineering. I thought it was hilarious at the time; now it's just
one more thing I wish I hadn't had to unlearn. I definitely regret all of the
times I defended this kind of behavior.

And then stepping back... it's super common to joke about violence, too.

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sdoowpilihp
This is great advice. It is cast in the first sentence as narrow advice, and
in some ways it is. In the last paragraph though, it is illustrated that the
advice generalizes incredibly well, and that's the part that sticks with me.
Recognize the power your words carry, be empathetic to how those affect
people.

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john4532452
Another thing every Manager should know about perceived power vs actual power.
Considerable managers i have encountered think they are the loyal employees
where as programmers are sellout's who switch when the get better offer. This
is true to some degree but that does not give more power to the managers.

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mathattack
Yes. Same thing about joking about people’s future raises. There’s an enormous
power imbalance in managing people.

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jmchuster
I'll also add "don't joke about pay".

Also, don't even speculate about pay. There are only the hard finalized
numbers, and that's it. Anything you suggest will be interpreted as finalized,
and they will be very angry when you break this "promise" that you made to
them.

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renewiltord
This feels like the sort of idiot behaviour that makes sense where you don't
need to bother correcting it because it's just an indicator that you're also
going to get a cluster of other associated behaviours.

It's better they just do this and you take the red flag and go somewhere else.

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spcebar
The April fool's joke at my last job was, "we got bought, so, move to Colorado
or lose your job!"

Hilarious.

~~~
Hamuko
Because of the COVID-19 situation, HR asked people if they were willing to
take a voluntary pay cut this year. Unfortunately it was very badly timed as
they decided to ask it on April first.

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RobPfeifer
Definitely don’t joke about it - but people should be aware that poor
performance or behavior won’t be tolerated. The best employees generally
appreciate that meritocracy is taken seriously.

Along those lines, advice to new managers: you should let people go if there
isn’t a good mutual fit.

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afterburner
Don't be an asshole. Don't abuse your power.

Seems like it would be obvious, but for many shitty people, the above two
things are seen as _perks_ of being a manager. Even more of a problem is
people hiring managers sometimes look for those traits on purpose.

There are so many shitty managers.

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whywhywhywhy
If you're an executive don't joke "That's why they pay me the big bucks".

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Cthulhu_
Oof; while not a manager, I have made the joke to various people who were
peers in terms of job description, but I had been at the company for years
while they had only been there for months. They took it as intended though,
I've always been the clown type.

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jldugger
My last job featured a chatbot with a !fire <blah> command that will summarily
inform the channel that blah has been fired, for the nth time, and manager
that commonly used it on people as much as software or servers.

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nraynaud
My rule when I was managing people was a bit wider: no joke about hierarchy at
all. We don't ignore that I'm the boss, we can talk about it, but I would
never joke about it. And it was sometimes hard.

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jasonv
Also worth nothing: managers often can't actually fire their direct reports.
Managers may have to go up reporting chains and possibly HR for that.

It's a terrible joke, nonetheless.

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massaman
Never joke about firing people.

It's much better to joke about running out of funding. Knowing that everyone
will lose their jobs together builds a sense of community and shared mission.

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estebarb
Sadly some companies joke with firing people. For example, announcing layoffs
soon but delay actual execution by weeks. So people actually resigned by pure
stress.

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snovv_crash
Something along similar lines I've heard is "nobody's quit because our tooling
is bad, so I don't think we should improve our tooling".

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supratims
Almost every org I have worked for in the last 20 years - (across the globe) -
I have heard this from atleast one senior management. In some way or form.

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mark-r
How about "You're lucky I'm a nice guy, someone else might consider that a
firing offense." Does that cross the line?

~~~
bloodorange
That statement still implies something like "a not-so-improbable
interpretation of that event might mean you will be fired".

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ignoramceisblis
The broader issue is about having respect for others.

If we all followed the golden rule, all the time, we could find this planet is
a paradise.

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phibz
Listen to your team and be their advocate.

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dempedempe
My old manager used to joke about firing someone seemingly every other day.
Was really frustrating.

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atum47
that really needs to be advised though? I remember trying to introduce "the
office" to my parents and dying of embarrassment cause one of the first jokes
is Michael jokingly firing Pam. I was a lot simpler when I watched that show.

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a0zU
Does... Does this really need to be said, it seems like a pretty obvious rule
to me.

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drekembe
Conversely, do make jokes that lift people up and make them look and feel
good.

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mesozoic
If Michael Scott was known for it you probably shouldn't do it.

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zeruch
This is sound advice...almost to the point of staggeringly obvious.

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pbreit
Two things for everyone to never joke about: firing & divorce.

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tomrod
JFC... Yeah, don't joke about structural things as a manager.

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nojito
Flip side is also true.

Joking about quitting is a terrible thing to do.

~~~
Kronen
Not when you can get a better job in another place

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sys_64738
"With power comes great responsibility"

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LordFast
Uhh, isn't this dead obvious?

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dudul
It is good advice, but it is not very common for newly promoted managers to
have full hiring/firing power.

~~~
Insanity
This could be extended to "not make jokes about someones work / work status
when you're their manager" .

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RIMR
This is why I left my last employer, and they acted absolutely shocked when I
referenced it in my exit interview.

My manager was absolutely obsessed with KPIs and would every month review our
team's numbers. My numbers were always exceptional, and in terms of overall
team rankings I was almost always number 1. Regardless, she would find the one
metric in which I fell below average (usually only one KPI was below average
while the remaining 15 or so KPIs were above average) and tell me that I had
to get my act together "if I wanted to keep my job".

I once decided respond to and challenge this threat, and she just lectured me
about working in an at-will state, and even had the nerve to wink at me before
asking me to leave her office. The quote I took away from her reply that day
was "you have nothing to worry about as long as you do your job well".

It was after this meeting that I began aggressively putting out my resume and
applying for jobs. I found a better job with higher pay and better benefits in
less than a month.

A week after putting in my 2-week notice I had an exit interview in which they
asked me why I started looking for new jobs, and why I had never talked to
them about my lack of satisfaction working there. They told me it was "very
odd" for someone to leave without warning, and said that they regretted that
there was never a conversation in which they could have "retained my talent".

I told them that being threatened by my manager with termination every month
and never once being praised for my high performance had motivated me to find
a job that offered better job satisfaction and security. You would have
thought I kicked a puppy from the reaction I got from the leaders. My manager
immediately started with a "I NEVER threatened to fire you!". The CEO just
shook his head. He didn't say much, but I do remember being told "this is a
risk you take in the working world" like I was upset about the possibility of
being fired rather than the regular verbal threats of it.

I countered by explaining that "if you want to keep your job" includes an
implicit threat of termination, and that hearing this threat when your numbers
are above average is demoralizing and makes it feel impossible to do a
satisfactory job in the eyes of management. My manager responded with "I say
those things hoping that it will motivate you and the rest of your team into
doing a better job! I've always been on your side!".

My response was simple: "You did motivate me... To GET a better job. I was
already doing a great job, this place just didn't recognize it". That was the
end of the exit interview.

Two days later, they were begging me to stay for another MONTH because "nobody
knows how to do your job". I suppose they should have thought about that
before they made my employment a bargaining chip...

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papito
Just new managers?

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Kronen
This is another example of the trend in the 21st Century, people being so
easily offended.

~~~
dvtrn
That's really what you took from this? Is it possible in your mind there may
be _some_ usefulness from the admonition to new managers in the blog post in
treating people with bare minimum decency in not joking about firing them,
even if one were to frame it differently, or is this what you've decided is
the only possible takeaway here? That people are easily offended?

I'm not offended by the comment, just kind of amused someone went this far out
of their way to miss the point.

~~~
Kronen
What you need to understand is that cultures are different, if I have a
manager that doesn't get close to employees being friendly and joking even
with black humour my co-workers are going to talk behind saying he is dull and
unfriendly.

But probably you are american and you don't even get irony nor sarcasm, you
see, a joke ;)

And my point still stands, in 21st century people is getting so easily
offended like if we are all now mentally weaker.

~~~
dvtrn
I understand quite well the nuances that exist from one culture to the next,
but I still feel the need to stand by my point and agree with the author: if
you're a manager, maybe don't joke around about terminating people from their
jobs-even in jest we don't know what mental faculties that kind of "joke" will
activate in the recipients mind and it's best to just eschew these comments
altogether because it's just prudent and decent behavior for someone looked to
as a _leader_ , and leaders don't actively or deliberately make commentary
that stigmatize those under their ward.

So on the one hand, sure, cultures are different between workplaces and
industries, on the other hand, I really don't need anyone making smarmy
assessment about my nationality or making insinuations about people of my
nationality and our ability to comprehend irony and sarcasm to empathetically
intuit the point made in the article.

