
Skype, Spotify, Angry Birds creators to advise EU in "Startup Europe" campaign - jennyjenjen
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-262_en.htm
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qnk
This group should push for legislation changes also. It's not only about
networking or spreading the word. I, particularly want to expose the Spanish
case: youth unemployment is around 50% and Spain is really far away in the
list of most friendly places to start a business.

It's really hard to start your own company in a garage and automatically start
owing the government a €340 monthly fee, especially when that's the amount of
money some families have at hand to feed themselves.

Many talented people, courageous enough to start their business go to The UK
and do it for a one time fee, that's around 70€. In Spain we're talking about
~€5000 on your first year of operation, just because you own "My Startup Inc."
on paper.

Please Europe, make it easier for European entrepreneurs to start our
businesses. The entry barrier in countries like Spain are discouraging people
from doing it.

Edit: grammar.

~~~
derda
I am not familiar with the Spanish tax system, but can't you simply register a
Ltd in the UK? EU law says that you are free to incorporate your company where
ever you want (in the EU). Or what is this 340€ /month about?

Germany saw the problem of many people incorporating in the UK a few years ago
and introduced a limited liability company with starting at (theoretically) 1€
capital, called UG. Previously the GmbH required 25.000€.

Wiki tells me the needed capital for a Spanisch S.L. is 3006€, not that much.
But I can't find the 340€? What is it about.

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1880
If you want to be a "trabajador autónomo" (autonomous worker), you have to pay
a mandatory monthly fee of about 250€ (it varies a bit on your activity, if
you want extra coverage, etc). There are some discounts, if you are under 30
(35 if you're a woman) and it's your first time being an "autónomo", you pay
only 20% of the tax on the first 6 months and 50% on the next 18.

The 20% thing was approved about a month ago, and it's been a bureaucratic
mess. I applied to it on the first day of being on the law, and as of today
I'm still waiting for approval. Apparently their systems are not prepared for
this discount and they have to be applied manually. Of course you don't have
to wait, you can pay full rate and then claim the difference, but that could
take months.

If you create a SL, you must designate a legal administrator, and the cheapest
way is being an "autónomo".

Edit: about creating a Ltd in the UK, if your revenues are more than 50% from
Spain, you will be fined by the Spanish IRS for capital flight. It's not easy.

~~~
derda
So that money goes into health insurance and social security?

If you work as an "autónomo" and your business fails, do you qualify for
social-security /unemployment benefits? In this case it would not be the worst
deal, espacially counting in the discounts. The scandal here is, that the
system needs ages to approve the paperwork.

Also as I understand EU laws, incorporating somewhere else would not solve the
problem, since you are subject to the local taxes at the place where you
actually do the work.

~~~
1880
Yes, with that money you pay social security and health care, which is fully
covered with the minimum, mandatory "autónomo" fee. That's nice I guess.

Unemployment is optional (about +20€/month IIRC), to get it you have to prove
a specific lost of revenue in a specific length of time, first year doesn't
count, and you get 2 months of pay per 12 months worked ("normal" jobs get
4/12). I recently read that only about 25% of the unemployment petitions are
approved. I chose not to pay it.

Since the moment you stop being an "autónomo" you get 90 days of "free" health
insurance. After that, if you are <=26, you can use the health insurance of a
parent or sibling. If you are 27, you have to pay for health care, or prove
that you don't have any income to get free healthcare.

~~~
derda
So basically the only benefit you get for the fee is health care? Then its
pretty expensive. Does it increase with income or is it a flat fee?

Can you work around the whole thing, if you make e.g. your wife (or father, or
whoever) the owner of the company and hire yourself as CEO? So you would pay
health care + other stuff as a percentage of your wage (which would be very
low monthly + share of yearly profit).

I am asking extensively because I plan to spent a year in Spain in the near
future. And while all this information is irrelevant to the stay (I am a
student and will hopefully have set aside enough to spend the year without
having to work on the side). But I really like to understand as much as
possible on how the country works. :)

~~~
1880
Yes, it's a flat fee, it only increases if you want extra coverages (full pay
on day 1 of sick leave, unenmployment, etc).

The mandatory minimum doesn't increase which income†, but since you are also
paying towards your retirement, you can choose to pay more, if for example you
are in your final working years, so that you get a better retirement. But I'm
not thinking about that right now :)

I am not the right person to ask about these things, and I may be wrong, but I
think the workaround you are suggesting would cost, in the best case, the same
as being autónomo on your own. You'd be paying about 250 € in taxes for a
worker with the minimum wage (758 € in 12 wages).

†: of course you will have to pay income tax later (annually if >=70% of your
income is B2B, quarterly if not, so many random rules!).

~~~
derda
Sounds like there are a ton of pitfalls running a company in Spain. Good luck
in the tight economy!

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arkitaip
Oh this could be hilarious. The world's largest bureaucracy is trying to
encourage EU web entrepreneurship in the most bureaucratic way possible for
the typical political reasons ("Stay in Europe and create more jobs!"). Even
the project web site reeks of EU bureaucracy [1].

[1] [https://ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/en/startup-europe-
initia...](https://ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/en/startup-europe-initiative-
european-commission-strengthen-environment-web-entrepreneurs-europe/)

~~~
onemorepassword
It's cheap and easy to ridicule everything the EU does and completely ignore
how successful it has been so far in uniting a group of extremely diverse
countries to be competitive against powerhouses like the US, without
completely selling out all cultural diversity and social protections.

Initiatives like this can clear the way for equalizing regulations that now
hinder start-ups to operate across the EU, and remove barriers in certain
countries, with direct input from existing start-ups.

How can this be a bad thing?

~~~
LunaSea
If you think that the EU has been "successful", you are majorly mistaken.

~~~
onemorepassword
I live in the EU in an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity (yes,
despite the current dip) and the freedom to live and work anywhere from
Lithuania in the former Soviet-Union to the south of Spain.

And that in the same country were my grandparents had to hide in the basement
for German bombs, and nearly starved to death in the winter.

Also, I'm married to a woman who grew up in a totalitarian communist state
that is now also part of the same borderless EU.

If you don't consider that a success, you have zero perspective.

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amirmc
It's beginning to bother me that 'Starup' is becoming more conflated with 'Web
business' (as the OP does). Software may be eating the world but the scope for
disruptive innovation is far larger and should also be highlighted.

~~~
Vlaix
Well it's EU-related, so anything other than conceited BS would be paranormal.

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nicrogo
The initiative is good because they have, at least, the objective of doing
something about it. There is in fact a lot of startup accelerators and
incubators being created in Europe based on Y COMBINATOR & TECHSTARS models.
There are just not mature enough yet, but this will come. The problem is that,
besides London, there is nowhere to go in Europe. The population is generally
"old school" and is quite pessimistic, they are simply uninterested. In
Europe, people want to work less and earn more while in USA, poeple will do
just anything to succeed. It's no miracle that America is the best place for
startups, Europe has a different cultures due to different lifestyles.
Mentality changes with initiatives so I welcome this one and will wait to see
the results before bearing a judgement. After all, when there's no evolution,
there is a revolution! It's the moto of the french revolution and France is in
Europe so let's be optimistic for this one ;)

~~~
d4nt
As one of the 500 million people wants to "work less and earn more", I'd just
like to point out that all Americans are gun slinging Christian
fundamentalists. Oh wait, did I just make an assumption about a rich and
varied culture all conforming to an exaggerated stereotype?... you know I
think I did ;)

~~~
nicrogo
I know you did because you are probably emotional about it :) You may not be
part of the majority but I've lived and traveled in Europe all my life and I
can assure you that it is not a stereotype, probably not even 70% but more
than 50%. it is a fact that politics, languages, history, cultures and lack of
cohesion are barriers for expansion. Most poeple, besides uk, germany and
scandinavia, in Europe work less and complain much more than in america (also
because they have more weight,rights & insurances). How can you solve a
problem if you fail to acknowledge it first? If Europe is still not a startup
hub, that's the reason why. So I welcome the initiative which is a proof of a
will of change and good analytics.

