
Node.js Forked Again Over Complaints of Unresponsive Leadership – The New Stack - taytus
https://thenewstack.io/node-js-forked-complaints-repeated-harassment/
======
mayank
This is really misleading and shoddy reporting. It's one disgruntled developer
forking over Code of Conduct issues (not even technical). The chances that
this will win over any significant traction from the node community is nearly
zero.

> The Node.js Foundation did not immediately offer a response in time for this
> story.

They also didn't put out a press release when I clicked the "fork" button on
Github yesterday.

~~~
LamaOfRuin
4 members of the TSC have resigned and the foundation board made their
scheduled meeting private and are dedicating it entirely to this issue.

~~~
mayank
node's strength is its community -- how do any of the things you cited
indicate that the community is going to fork, especially over a non-technical
issue? The reason io.js took off with the community is because it addressed a
core _technical_ issue in node, namely the outdated version of V8 that 0.x was
using.

It's a bit like the Bitcoin fork -- the only thing that matters is adoption,
not resignations over personal issues and private meetings.

If Ayo.js suddenly offered 2x the performance of node, then we'd have a real
story. Right now, this is the type of internal bickering that happens in any
organization.

------
StevePerkins
"Again"? Node has 7,660 forks and counting:

[https://github.com/nodejs/node](https://github.com/nodejs/node)

It's only notable if any substantial portion of the _community_ forks.

The "previous" fork, Io.js, was key moment for Node. Because that was about
fundamental technical questions of choosing between stability versus
innovation.

This appears to be yet another tweet-fight about CoC's. I can't imagine the
community actually fracturing over this, but if it did then I would be fine
with that. Let there be one set of conferences for the Douglas Crockford's of
the world to discuss code, and another set of conferences for people to
discuss Douglas Crockford.

~~~
koolba
> This appears to be a tweet-fight about CoC's. If the community fractures
> over this, then I'd welcome it.

If this turns into one version that focuses on features and the other that
focuses on CoCs, I know which one I'll be using.

------
debacle
What the actual fuck. I was expecting a technical rationale. This is all about
a witch hunt against a single board member?

io.js was a hugely effective fork in moving node forward. This is trying to
split a technical project for social reasons. Who is this going to benefit?

After looking at the "evidence" below, I'm not really sure how to feel.
Nothing Rod did was particularly noble, but I don't think it's all that bad.
It'd register a few hundred millieichs at best. He seems to be a relatively
combative guy who might feel slighted by the community - I don't know enough
about what goes on politically in the node space to judge.

This makes me sad. Open source projects are supposed to be about people coming
together, about creating something that the entire world can use, leverage,
and take value from.

Completely unrelated, but somewhere in the linked twitter thread there's a
great recipe for deviled eggs for no reason I can identify.

Edit: This reddit comment is fantastic -
[https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6vhbit/here_we_go_aga...](https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6vhbit/here_we_go_again_nodejs_forked_to_ayojs_iojs/dm0lhfh/)

------
marcofatica
> Williams charged that Vagg’s presence on the board indicated that the
> organization is not serious about fostering inclusivity within the
> community, a frustration she has expressed for well over a year.

Good, software isn't about being inclusive, it's about delivering software. I
can't imagine how awful it was to work with these women.

------
benmmurphy
It looks like 4 people left the TSC after the vote failed but only 2 people
actually voted to eject Rod [6 against, 2 for and 2 abstains?]. Was there
something that prevented people who weren't comfortable with Rod being around
from voting for him to leave? Though, too be fair I think some of the people
who have left have said it wasn't because of someone in particular but rather
because of how the TSC was working (or not working).

~~~
LamaOfRuin
10 TSC members voted. It seems there were 13.

~~~
benmmurphy
This is my concern. If you were willing to resign over a failed vote then it
seems like you should make an effort to make the vote. If people were unable
to make it to the meeting for such an important vote then there seems to be a
problem in the process.

------
strictnein
> "In that Tweet, Vagg commented “If you’ve never considered the potential
> downsides of codes of conduct, here’s a good place to start.”"

Well clearly we should burn this heathen.

~~~
pluma
The wording seems to have been unfortunate. He later clarified he wasn't
"anti-CoC", he just thinks the CoC is open to discussion like any other
document and that it can be improved.

Which of course is totally irresponsible hate speech and should rightfully be
treated as grounds for kicking him out of an organisation he massively
contributed to for the better part of its lifetime.

------
randiantech
I do understand the 2015 fork and the technical reasons behind it. But this is
non sense.

~~~
kbody
I remember there was similar noise with Ben a while back about a similar
"outcry", but this time (along with the general IRL environment) it seems
stronger.

There has to be a general attitude of focusing on what matters and not
implicate irrelevant things to technical matters. Same thing happened with
Brendan Eich (Mozilla) and in part on Palmer Lucky (Oculus).

This is getting ridiculous.

------
ausjke
[https://github.com/nodejs/board/issues/67](https://github.com/nodejs/board/issues/67)
here is the statement from the nodejs side.

what exactly is this? what is the "behavior problem" actually? anything to do
with 'political correctness"?

------
okreallywtf
While I'm not the first to start screaming about free speech when these kinds
of issues arise, it seems like a stupid reason to fork the codebase _again_
and split the community. Its a technical solution to a social problem,
splitting the community because the guy is an asshole seems immature to say
the least.

~~~
jowiar
Not splitting the community because the guy is an asshole is still splitting
the community between "people who will put up with the asshole" and "people
who leave the community because of the asshole". This gives the people who
left a place to go. And possibly ends up creating a bigger community where
being an asshole isn't tolerated.

Or maybe not. But it's hard to know without trying.

~~~
jessaustin
Linking in a non-triggering way to a mostly-thoughtful article by a professor
of psychology about the challenges faced by those with autism and other neural
diversities is not "being an asshole". If that's "asshole" to you, I'd like to
trade entire families and sets of acquaintances and business associates with
you...

~~~
mdekkers
_Linking in a non-triggering way_

Is this a thing? How can I avoid linking in a triggering way? What does it
mean?

~~~
jessaustin
I'm not sure I completely understand it myself. I just know there are more and
less courteous ways to discuss particular topics. When the topic of discussion
is "harassment", one wouldn't refer to it in such a way that a reader or
listener would be reminded of particular situations of harassment that they
have experienced themselves. The link in question was about the experience of
the neurodiverse with the speech police rather than about harassment _per se_
, but it's possible that some readers might have leaped to that topic, had the
tweet been something like, "Let's end speech codes so harassing harassers can
harass harassment victims without getting hassled by the man!"

Whoops I probably just triggered someone...

------
flanbiscuit
There was a previous discussion of this a day ago on HN (got the link via
reddit) but it's showing up as flagged. I'm not sure why it was flagged as I
haven't read the full comments myself yet.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15078995](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15078995)

and here's the reddit discussion I pulled it from

[https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6vhbit/here_we_go_aga...](https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6vhbit/here_we_go_again_nodejs_forked_to_ayojs_iojs/)

------
jessaustin
This whole episode may be pretty silly, but flagging TFA is even worse. We
have to know these people are around trying to ruin all our nice stuff... why
not read about their shenanigans?

------
jessaustin
Please edit the title!

    
    
      s/ – The New Stack//
    

The "fork" is not called that; that's just some random online media brand.

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linkmotif
rvagg endorsed this article: [http://quillette.com/2017/07/18/neurodiversity-
case-free-spe...](http://quillette.com/2017/07/18/neurodiversity-case-free-
speech/)?

What an inane article—WOW!

If Isaac Newton showed up in 2017 and bestowed upon humanity the heretofore
undiscovered Newtonian Mechanics, humanity would definitely publish those
results! He would get by without the 20k Twitter followers. And hey, if he was
anti PC and inflammatory he might even get elected POTUS!

~~~
debacle
Douglas Crockford has said some of the most stupid shit I've ever read. He's
still contributed massively to JavaScript.

~~~
pluma
And there has been a witch hunt against him too. People tried to get him
kicked off a conference he was being invited to because of "safety" concerns.

Allegedly he vented backstage after someone's talk once in a way that made
another person feel "unsafe". Plus he's a well-off old straight white man.

~~~
debacle
I guess my point was that people having bad ideas doesn't mean they can't
contribute.

