
The worst is yet to come for American shopping malls - MilnerRoute
http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/12/news/companies/mall-closing/index.html
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tyu100
Content-free catastrophe clickbait like this is likely a good indicator that
the mall-closing phenomenon in the states has peaked.

Lots of the retail stores in trouble were victims of high debt loads from
private equity buyouts rather than major competition from online shopping.

Almost all of the major retail chains are now very competitive in online and
mixed online/in-person shopping models and mall operators are re-tooling malls
with a mix of retail and experiential stores and even governmental and
professional services.

Even Sears looks like it might survive in some form and smart observers like
Scott Galloway think its more likely than not that Amazon will buy a major
department store soon to keep up with the Walmarts and Best Buy's that have
effective physical footprints.

~~~
matt_s
The other element is restaurants, I've noticed malls that have name brand
chain restaurants always seem busy.

People will go out to eat, and since they are there do some shopping. There
are still things that are better buying in person rather than getting
something shipped, not liking it, shipping it back, etc.

~~~
tyu100
Yes, 'Fast Casual' in the Chipotle and Panera style has seen a huge growth
boom as well as experiential retail like the Apple Store, Sephora Makeup,
Alamo Drafthouse and etc..

Personally I try to buy everything online that I can't walk to and I bought a
lot at Best Buy this year. They gave me free wall mount installation from
their local location on my television that I bought from their web site and
it's nice to have a physical location nearby for bigger purchases in case you
need to return something.

In addition, the Walmarts and Targets see an obvious future where you buy
things from their web stores online but just have it shipped to their physical
locations where you can pick it up during your weekly grocery run. This is
already a reality.

There are clear secular trends towards online shopping and against malls but a
lot of the shakeout has taken place already and a lot of the weak hands have
already left the game. Those that remain along with new entrants are adapting
quickly which is why I think the 'retail apocalypse' has already hit the peak
of the hype cycle.

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Fifer82
Dan Bell's Dead Mall Series is oddly depressing and he often gives some back
story into their declines.

[https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNz4Un92pGNxQ9vNgmnCx...](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNz4Un92pGNxQ9vNgmnCx7dwchPJGJ3IQ)

A common theme appears to be either struggling footfall or the fact that what
I guess are major US anchor stores (Maceys, Sears, KMart) going through tough
times. Once the anchors move out, it becomes difficult to run the mall.

Interestingly, in one video, the Mall was half turned into offices, and it had
a thriving food hall which I thought was a great idea to keep it relevant. No
other dead malls in the series appear to adapt so they become ghost towns then
abandoned and later demolished.

A shame really.

~~~
randomerr
I love the series. I notice also in the series an anchors space would often be
subdivided into 10' x 20' vendor areas. that way small community businesses
could sell their goods for very little overhead.

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zinckiwi
In New Zealand and Australia (and I'm sure many other places, but those are
the ones I know first-hand) malls also feature supermarkets, post offices, and
banks. They're designed to be a destination for not just "recreational"
shopping but day-to-day errands. Always missed that when in US malls, and
apparently they're still not cottoning on.

~~~
randomerr
In the US, malls have been fighting that trend. Until recently they saw those
stores as a cancer. Grocery stores and work-out locations would 'push out' the
high dollar customers. Of course the internet is taking away those high dollar
customers so the malls need those stores now.

I stay away from the big local mall because of the lack of security. Also
2/3's of the mall are women's clothing stores. There nothing really there for
me anyone more.

The next closest mall is a rotting heap that is kept alive by the marker space
and a theater. They need to repave the parking lot and fix the roof to attract
new good stores.

~~~
distances
What do you mean by lack of security? Do you feel you're in danger of being
robbed _in a mall_?

~~~
nkrisc
Probably in the parking lot.

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kalleboo
I clicked this headline thinking "hmm it's not going to be Howard Davidowitz
banging this old drum?" and sure enough it's Howard Davidowitz with his same
talking points one decade later...

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black_puppydog
Maybe someone from the US can clarify this for me: are people upset about this
as an indicator for the economic changes happening at the moment, or are they
genuinely concerned about the malls themselves?

Never having left Europe myself, I could relate to the former, but not to the
latter. What makes those malls so... relevant?

~~~
tomalpha
That's an interesting question. How is a mall closing a problem provided that
people are still buying things, albeit from a different company to the one
they bought from before?

If money continues to move around the system, surely this is something that
_looks like_ an economic indicator, but is really more of a cultural shift.
(Separately there could well be economic problems with the decline of
manufacturing etc.).

Are shopping malls somehow deeply rooted in the American psyche? Watching US
movies from the 80's and 90's might suggest that they are...

~~~
black_puppydog
that last bit is what prompted my question.

crydas' and mseebach's answers make a good point that for some reasons, malls
in the US started taking on other roles than just the places of exchange for
everyday goods. so from that perspective, if malls fail, those roles need to
be filled by some other entity.

~~~
gbacon
It’s a sentimental attachment for Gen Xers.

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djsumdog
Someone told me about a mall in Cincinnati that was now a ghost town. I
visited it a few months ago and it's surreal. Over half the storefronts have
blacked out windows. Almost all the remaining stores have all conglomerated on
one side of the building. I was pretty shocked when I saw my favourite body
jewelry store was still there. I bought some earrings.

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amsilprotag
A more quantitative, in-depth article on the topic was published by Bloomberg
in early November.

[https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-retail-
debt/](https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-retail-debt/)

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ashwinaj
Just a thought, malls in America all look the same (with some exceptions). I
do realize this was a concious effort based on data that consistency in mall
design reduces "friction" and provides "familiarity" to consumers.

This isn't the case in a lot of other countries/cities; Dubai for example has
multiple malls which look entirely different with it's own unique theme (or
themes). They have an overlap of brand name stores, yet the business is brisk.
Can American mall owners learn something from this?

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jlebrech
they need more arcades, plenty of opportunity for full 4k gaming and vr
experiences that would be too expensive for many in the home.

~~~
flyinghamster
A lot of malls started kicking out the arcades in the early 1990s, assuming
they had them in the first place.

Then they started kicking out the kids completely, and act surprised when they
don't return after reaching adulthood.

~~~
taneq
Maybe it's also just that a mall is a place where you shop for fun, and post-
gen-X there's been less general fetishizing of consumption all around.

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KozmoNau7
Good, I wish malls would just die out and disappear. They're horrible sterile
temples to overconsumption and consumer culture.

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spodek
Since bulldozing trees began many of those malls, how about returning them
back to the natural state we clearcut?

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tabeth
We should repurpose these dead malls. On that note -- how feasible would it be
to buy a mall and turn it into an indoor city? Line the top with solar panels,
and it could be neat.

~~~
grkvlt
See my earlier comment [0] about Rackspace HQ. Apparently they bought the mall
for USD 27 million in 2007 [1] so it's certainly feasible, if not cheap.

0\.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15922440](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15922440)

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_Park_Mall#2007-present...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_Park_Mall#2007-present:_The_Castle)

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tomalpha
To summarise the summary:

\- Amazon is taking all their business and will continue to do so even more

Longer summary:

\- shopping malls have been in decline for years

\- the decline seems likely to continue due to amazon's growth

\- once large department stores leave, smaller shops lose customers who would
have passed them on the way to the larger store

\- smaller stores often have break clauses in their leases in case this very
thing happens

\- this has been said before

