
Quit Your Job Now, Before It's Too Late - gsaines
http://www.georgesaines.com/?p=785
======
untog
The only caveat I'd add is "don't quit your job if it turns out you enjoy it
just fine". The post makes the same assumption that a lot of Hacker News
articles do- that a startup is the most preferable option available to anyone,
at any time.

It isn't. Depending on your interests you may be fine working in a larger
organisation- if you stick at it for a while (the same amount of time it would
take to establish a startup) you may be able to call a lot of shots yourself
and really start owning your job. Or maybe you'd enjoy the kind of research-
like position that only a larger company can provide. Maybe you'd be best
suited to a non-profit. It's all down to you.

~~~
redact207
I'm not sure how it is in the US, but in Australia getting a $400K mortgage
when you're in your 20s is not uncommon. Real estate doesn't get cheaper, and
it's much harder to buy when you're in your 30s with kids and a single income
facing a now $500K mortgage. Sacrifycing debt for freedom does make it harder
down the road.

I'm 29 now, but when I was in my early-mid 20s I had no problems working a day
job and then coding nights and only sleeping a few hours. It's more painful
than having no responsibilities, but you have that sort of energy when you're
young so make the most of it.

Nowadays I'm actively rejecting promotions, more staff and more
responsibilities as I've reached a point in my career where the pay is good
and takes only 40 hours on a normal week. That leaves a lot of room for side
projects whilst still laying a good financial base for the future.

So I agree with the OP's response except that you should consider waiting
until you have implemented your idea and have a proven, consistent revenue
stream from it before you up and leave. It may take a year to get to that
stage, a bit of pain - but nothing worth doing is easy.

~~~
dredmorbius
> Real estate doesn't get cheaper

Funny. I seem to recall similar words being uttered elsewhere in the not so
distant past.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Yes, this made me laugh, my first property lost 30% of it's value in 18
months.

~~~
DontMakeMeReg
He obviously lives in an area people care about. Where you can have job
options and such.

~~~
redblacktree
Someplace like Northern California?

------
dkrich
As somebody who quit a job to pursue a startup, I'm going to take the opposite
side.

Don't quit your job to pursue a startup unless:

1) You have a customer base lined up and some income is all but assured, or...

2) You have enough savings to get by for at least one year (including
insurance) and a skill set or network that would enable you to jump back into
a similarly desirable job right away.

Quitting with just an idea and strong cofounders is a recipe for disaster,
stress, and misery. Remember, building is fun and easy, making sales isn't.

First whittle down what you really need to start (often times it's a lot less
than you originally thought) and examine whether you really have to quit. If
you are building something that your employer could lay claim to due to your
employment agreement, it's a little more tricky, but if you are careful it is
pretty easy to get around that.

~~~
johncarpinelli
There is also the option of part-time consulting to pay the bills while
building the startup. As a Django consultant, this person could probably make
$50k annual income by consulting a few days per week. The rest of his time
could be dedicated to the startup business.

Even if you have low living costs, you should still consider opportunity costs
of not working. A consultant making $100k per year who takes two years off to
do a failed startup has effectively lost $200k in income.

~~~
nthj
One recommendation, stolen from patio11: sell weekly blocks of your time. This
is more fair to both those hiring you, and to your startup, because ramp-up
and context-switch time are an expensive part of software development.

------
ruswick
I'm sick of everyone perpetuating the notion that developers need to either
become spectacularly successful through starting companies or die trying.
There are many people, perhaps even the preponderance, who are perfectly
content with having a $100k mortgage and two kids while working a nine-to-five
job for $75,000 per year.

People prefer this because it is safe, and affords a nice lifestyle. Starting
a company offers neither, and those who pursue startups incur massive risk.
The overwhelming majority fail. Entrepreneurship is incredibly dangerous and
trying, and is neither optimal nor tennable for most. Encouraging people to
blindly quit their jobs to go take part in what is essentially a lottery in
which the odds are stacked tenfold against you is ridiculous.

Don't just up and quit your job right now. Think long and hard about what you
in life. You'll probably come to the realization that you don't want to
subject yourself to the tribulations of entrepreneurship.

~~~
subsection1h
First, it's inaccurate to state that "everyone" is "perpetuating the notion
that developers need to either become spectacularly successful through
starting companies or die trying."

Second, if you're truly "sick" of so many people promoting entrepreneurship,
have you considered spending less time at a news website hosted by a startup
incubator?

------
jamesaguilar
Another alternative is to save aggressively working at a lucrative job when
you're young, then do the startup when you're thirty-five or forty and can
live, with discipline, on the gains from your investments. I know at least one
very successful person who took this approach (anecdote != data, I know). Not
always an option depending on your credentials, but there's something to be
said for a hybrid approach of building a personal runway (and gaining skill at
the craft) before quitting and throwing the dice.

Obviously you shouldn't do anything to _shorten_ your personal runway if you
_plan_ to make a startup. Big houses and mortgages and expensive cars are out,
even if you don't plan on quitting immediately.

Some of my bias may be showing here, because I'm fairly satisfied with my life
and work at BigCo right now.

~~~
rayiner
Or get married to someone who can support you while do something risky. If the
Korean immigrant with a wife and kids who starts a dry cleaning business in
your neighborhood can do it, then it can't be intractable.

~~~
readme
Your post is inaccurate on two levels:

1\. You assume because a "korean immigrant" can do something, that it must not
be intractable (hard). Immigrant entrepreneurs are usually highly motivated,
especially the kind who start small businesses. I would rescind that comment.

2\. You are comparing a dry cleaner to a startup. The failure rate of startups
is several order of magnitudes worse than a dry cleaner. Figuring out the
potential numbers for a dry cleaner is simple math that you can base on the
local population, income/employment stats, and # of dry cleaners. Most
startups would kill for that kind of estimate.

~~~
ryanmolden
I read the "Korean immigrant" comment slightly differently. Not as a "if that
schlub can do it so can you!", but rather as pointing out that immigrants to
most countries generally face all the same business challenges of any citizen
plus the burden of being an immigrant in a society that may not always be
welcoming. If someone can succeed facing all the same challenges you would
face plus a few more it can show you that your challenges aren't
insurmountable. Or maybe the person is just so head-and-shoulders above you
that you shouldn't even compare, but that is less likely in my experience
(i.e. variation amongst people in sub-groups, say entrepreneurs, are generally
not as vast as people think, mostly because most people only compare against
the outliers).

------
sreyaNotfilc
I've bought a home 5 years ago when I was 24. So, I am stuck with it. I do
want to create a startup and have began rolling out code for my website. Its
very tough to have to pay a mortgage. Which means to work 8 hours a day on
something else, so that you have a place to stay so that you can work X hours
a night on what you want to work on.

At the time I bought my home, I'd never thought that I would be in any
position to create/run a business. I was a naive kid, and in hindsight I'm on
the fence to whether or not that was a good idea or not. So, packing up my
things to move over to Cali isn't going to be that easy. But whose to say that
creating a startup is easy?

I believe I have a great idea. I really do, but the risk to just leave it all
behind is daunting. For me, I would (and am) doing as much research as I can.
That's why yCombinator is such a great program. They will help you out as far
as the world of the startup. I missed this round, but am planning on entering
the next one. By that time, my work on my site will be that much more polished
and "ready".

I would love to leave it all and wish I had, but I was in no way ready for
that at 24. Staying allowed me to move up the ladder, and really learn my
craft very well. I would've been a terrible developer 5 years ago. I'm a firm
believe that its never too late. Yes, I'm spending every waking hours thinking
about code (both at work and for my site), but I have a feeling it will pay
off.

Here's hoping...

~~~
bch
The good thing is homes can easily be bought and sold. It may be less of a
trap than you think. Children, on the other hand, are more difficult to move
on the open market...

~~~
bluedino
Chances are if you bought 5 years ago you are underwater and can't sell it.

~~~
bch
In that case it _could_ be reasonable to let the bank foreclose on it. I know
people that have done this to their relief. Obviously a more serious decision
than selling a house, but still less serious than selling children.

~~~
whileonebegin
Foreclosing isn't as easy as it sounds. For one, the bank can sue you for the
difference between the auction price and the loan. For two, the IRS will
expect you to pay taxes on that "forgiven" difference. For three, your credit
will be (temporarily) ruined and it will be difficult to get a new
apartment/mortgage/loan. So, owning an underwater house can be a big problem.
Though, sometimes it is worth it to sell for a loss in exchange for freedom;
within reason.

~~~
bch
Oh, I wasn't really suggesting it's simple. I don't envy anybody in that
position, and hope anybody thinking of walking away from such a situation does
so on good advice. I know two people who've done this; I don't know the low-
level details, so perhaps it was necessary for some definition of "necessary",
but the next few years will be interesting to hear of, regardless.

------
jrs235
As someone with a mortgage, wife and three kids... Listen to this person!
We're trying to sell our home so we can follow our dreams with less stress and
worry. Notice I said less.

I haven't quit my job yet but I get similar responses when people hear we are
selling our house. They do not understand and think we are crazy. Thank
goodness I married a woman as "crazy" as me.

The only thing you can't get more of is time. Cherish it and use it wisely
while you still have it.

~~~
base698
Why not rent it? When I bought I did so in part because I knew I could rent
it. If you live in an area with terrible job prospects or no other draws that
may not work.

------
3327
Great little post. I agree and add:

+save your money, don't buy tv's cars and homes. specially when you are in
your 20's (i still am, I threw a minimum 20% of every paycheck into savings).

+Debt, and any such thing that anchors you is a NOGO.

+only debt to take if ever is for a business, and only when cash is the only
barrier impeding growth. (and if this is the case most VC's will gladly give
you money)

~~~
jrs235
Going into debt to consume things (cars, homes, vacations, clothes, etc.) is
Bad (capital B).

Going into debt to purchase capital that has the potential to pay for itself
and make a profit in the long run is [not as] bad.

Saving to buy things debt free regardless of its purpose is the best way to
go. Those that [can] delay instant self gratification tend to be the ones best
off. Short term pains for long term gains.

------
ams6110
I would also say that if you think you want to try a startup, do it before you
get married or have kids. Spouses will say they will be supportive, but like
anything else involving a startup they don't really know what they're in for.
Many simply cannot handle it. Divorce and/or child custody issues will not
help your startup be successful.

~~~
gsaines
Definitely. When I got married I told my wife "I might start another company,
be prepared" but there's really no preparation for the amount of
time/money/energy/hope that goes into a new venture. If there's any advantage
I had it was that I knew what it required to get my first venture off the
ground. But like anything else related to building/maintaining relationships,
it's all about ongoing communication.

------
Paul_D_Santana
What about doing both?

Work at a great company _and_ your own projects on the side. Seems like the
best of both worlds.

Ever since starting to read HN a few weeks ago, I've become interested in
learning Ruby, Rails and general web development. I love where I'm at now
(which is not hidden but easily found via my name and profile link) and the
fact that I can spend my free time on weekends learning for the sake of
learning, without the stress of having to make an income from it.

There is a great quote from _Who's Your City_ that states you need an
additional _$133,000_ in annual income to make up for the happiness from
seeing your friends and family on a daily or weekly basis. That's a big jump
for those quitting to move halfway across the country.

The quit-to-startup culture is certainly enticing but there's really no reason
many of us can't have the best of both worlds without quitting a great job at
a great company.

~~~
gsaines
Agreed. This is definitely one of the hardest decisions I've made in the last
2 years. I did the "work in my free time" thing, albeit on another project,
and had difficulty with the work life balance. In the end, the other project
successful enough that I'm able to afford to quit (for a short while) and go
full time on this idea. I actually finished the second edit of a new blog post
earlier today suggesting that folks bootstrap their first startup for some of
the same reasons you bring up.

------
snoonan
I was in a similar situation, but with 2k/mo in mortgage, passive income and
about 12 month's expenses saved up. His situation is much better! My business
turned out ok. I just asked myself, what's the worst that can happen? Get
another job in 10 months. Ok, no brainer. go.

------
benwoody
You should listen to Shane Becker's (@veganstraightedge) talk at LA Ruby Conf
2012, 'Quit You Job, srsly' <http://youtu.be/0CMjiIqhvdQ>

~~~
Jayschwa
This is awesome. Thanks for sharing.

------
dbecker
This site sees so many posts saying "I just quit my job, and you should too,"
and so few that say "I quit my job x years ago, and you should too."

Is their dream losing it's luster when it becomes a reality?

------
yesimahuman
Or you can start the company on the side and jump when you are ready (or not
start one at all, that's okay, too). I bootstrapped my current company with my
friend just working nights and weekends. We are now profitable and growing and
the schedule helped us focus on what was important.

In hindsight the risk was actually staying at my job, where I would have
stagnated and not had the amazing experiences I've had over the last year and
a half.

------
PAULHANNA84
This is one of those decisions that really depends on the individual making
them. You really have to go with what you feel makes you the happiest. For me,
entrepreneurship is the only option. For the last 10 years since I was 18 I've
been a business owner. It has been quite the roller coaster as well. In that
time I have experienced living in a fancy loft in Hollywood to being homeless
and living in my car for a month. From working 6+ months 12-15 hour days and
making no revenue to having 12 employees on pay-roll bringing in $100k monthly
gross sales with a nice chunk being profit. Regardless of the ups and downs
there was always this consistent happiness which seemed to be backed by hope
and passion. Even while living in my car and having to take showers at the gym
to then go to Starbucks to access internet in order to work on the business I
was building, I was still happy, and seemed happier than most.

Most people, even with an entrepreneurial spirit will choose comfort over risk
and reward. That's all fine, it's just for me I find comfort to be the cousin
of death. Comfort in the sense of not worrying about how to live is good. I'm
talking about comfort in regards to losing purpose in life. Living a lifestyle
where you're kind of just "wingin' it". Those are traits I don't foresee
myself having regardless of whatever dollar amount I'm worth.

Some don't understand passion and don't know how to put an appraisal value on
it. Your previous co-workers might have found you to be wreckless or not
taking life seriously, when in fact you're taking life far more serious than
they are.

I think you're doing the right thing. Forget the safety net, it's going to
slow you down. It's going to keep you from pushing yourself to the limit.

I wish you luck in your endeavors and..."Stay Thirsty My Friend" :)

------
sidman
I quit my job just over 1 year ago to work for myself, to do some consulting
work and improve on a website that I had knocked up with a mate over 2
weekends and see where it would take us and we are doing OK.

I felt I got the same treatment as the original poster did (quiet pity & the
why's) but I didn't care it was/is low risk and if worse come to worse I will
get a job again if I feel things really aren't going the way I want. One of my
friends even asked, "do you like money and want to get rich so much that you
are willing to leave your job that is stable and go out on your own". I think
the assumption for everyone who doesn't know about the love of working with
tech is that its done just for the money only not because its so fun and
challenging to some of us.

I responded by saying that I actually like money less then he did because I
was willing to go for 2 years (if needed) without stable income or money to do
the things I like (within and outside of tech), the way I figure, this shows
less of a desire for money then someone who wakes up everyday hating what they
are doing just for the money when they don't have the kids and a wife ?!

One of the advantaged that I didn't realise about quitting was other then
being able to do the work that you want to make $$$ (work that replaces your
9-5) you end up with much more time because you are able arrange your time
appropriately and the time wasted on ridiculous meetings, coffee breaks,
friday drinks the 2hr total train ride everyday and the complete drain at the
end of the day that just leaves you wanting to veg-out after work and not do
anything was no longer there. At the moment after I get a piece of work done
and I am happy with it I move onto the next thing whether it is a "work
related" task or "something fun" (like going to the beach for instance).

When I had that additional time the one big issue I had was trying not to feel
guilty about not working on the tasks that I was doing to replace my previous
day job and force every bit of work in any free time BUT once I was able to
get over this I managed to pick up a new sport a new language and learn many
things that I feel has enriched my life so much more.

What i kinda learnt is sometimes you quit work because of the usual HN
reasons, to do a startup, work for your self but for me specifically because I
didn't have to waste so much time I ended up discovering lots of other things
that makes life awesome. Unless i really need it and things go south in a big
way, living life with much less salary as before but with this additional
freedom is so much better. I guess its good to enjoy this whilst you can for
those that can because when kids come along being a responsible adult things
will obviously have to be different.

~~~
gsaines
I think you're right on with the monetary bit, statistically every
startup/consultancy/independently produced product is a money/time pit waiting
to happen. The number of successes in either category is tiny and you really
have to do it for reasons other than cash. I spent 4.5 years on my first
startup. If I wanted to maximize my income, I would have pursued a career in
finance, not started my own company.

As you say, I too find the freedom liberating, but more than that, I find it
exciting to work on problems that are personally interesting. To have skin in
the game is the best way I've found so far to keep my work interesting and
engaging. The fact that I can define my own work-life balance helps too. :)

------
orangethirty
The idea that entrepreneurship is some kind of nirvana that you have to aim
for is downright ridiculous. Being an entrepreneur is hard, more so in
emerging markets like tech. The world is currently evolving around technology,
and it is quick to adopt, but quicker to abandon. Getting customers these days
is a lot harder. People expect more, so you have to provide more with less.
Five thousand dollars could get you on the way, but now days, you need twenty
thousand. But no one ever tells you that. All you hear is _"I'm quitting my
job to start some ridiculous business based on an unproven idea."_ Because,
some months ago, a guy or some seventeen year old kid sold out their half-
finished project for thirty million dollars.

The real truth about being an entrepreneur, and a tech founder is that this
shit is really fucking hard. I mean, harder than opening up a pizzeria and
simply operating it with a 6% margin on gross (which makes for a good living).
Startups are very, very hard due to how you have to invent everything. Even if
you are copying some other team, you have to create your own systems. That is
the main reason most people don't even manage to launch. They had never
realized that sales and marketing need to be systemized before they can work.
That you can't simply run ads on adwords and get good traffic. They don't know
how creating content marketing is tough, because it takes time, and a good
understanding of what the market wants to read about (something even marketers
get wrong).

It used to be that some person could simply throw some PHP at it, and get
going. Not so much. With money, comes competition. And bubbles create an over-
abundance of money, hence an over-abundance of competition. I've learned to
think small. Rather than trying to build the next big thing (an attitude I
would carry), I now want to build the next small thing. So small, that it goes
unnoticed that most people here. Though small != small profits.

And did I mention work? In a regular job you clock in, do your thing, and
clock out. If anything comes up, it will have to wait for tomorrow (or
Monday). In a business, if you don't act in a timely fashion, you can end up
getting DDoS'ed (like it happened during the whole Pycon fiasco), and simply
get taken down by a bunch of dumb shits. Being a business owner means that the
business is always in your mind, no matter what. If you are vacationing, it
means that you log in every couple of hours and see whats going on. Employees?
Try getting an employee to answer their phone while on vacation.

So, don't quit your job unless you have a steady stream of clients, and your
business is profitable. Don't quit for an idea. Don't quit if you got accepted
into some incubator. Because good jobs are a rare thing. If you have one, keep
it. Its worth it.

But who am I to even say all of this? To turn you away? I talk and interact
with _founder-types_ every week. They are mostly lost, because they don't know
what the fuck to do next. No money, and no future prospects. Lost and trying
to make sense of things. They ask for help, and I sometimes do give then a
push. But I know, deep in my heart, that they will never make it. Not due to
their idea, or talents, but due to how unprepared they are for the reality of
business. I've done more than a dozen, and I still feel like a noob. I make
the same dumb mistakes, and still think a bit too positive. Though experience
has taught me to be way more careful, and not trade-in a good, steady paycheck
for the chance to become the next big thing.

Life is not about being on top, but about being on top of your game. Your own
game.

~~~
gsaines
Couldn't agree more. I personally relish the always-on aspect of starting
something new and really missed it while working for my employer.

Your comment about good jobs being rare is definitely not lost on me either.
It would have been so much easier to quit if I didn't like my coworkers or the
company, but they both rocked.

I actually just finished writing another blog post today (hasn't been
published yet) about bootstrapping your first startup and shooting for small
but profitable.

------
ownagefool
I have a house and a mortgage (Europe, Scotland) and I pay at least half of
what I would by renting. I can't speak for the US but here once you own 40% of
the property outright, mortgages aren't a terrible idea.

Of course this is based on living alone, living with my parents or something
like that would likely work out cheaper.

------
enraged_camel
Unfortunately, those of us who are on an H1B visa do not have much flexibility
when it comes to employment. For example, I can't just quit my job and found a
startup. I can't join one either, because most startups do not want to deal
with the costs and administrative details of sponsoring foreigners.

~~~
wahnfrieden
You would be surprised, especially if you're in-demand talent, i.e. iOS.

------
kaliblack
If you buy into life having rules about how it is supposed to look at certain
points then this is applicable. If you don't accept it then life simply comes
down to knowing what your goals are, working out a way to achieve them and
going for it.

------
james-skemp
"HN seems to have picked this up [...]" because you submitted it :D

Unless you meant that it made it to the home page. ;)

Either way, best of luck. Definitely a good suggestion to try something a
little scary while you don't have much in the way of obligations, yet.

~~~
gsaines
Yeah, sorry if that seems like a misdirect, I do self-submit my articles, but
most of them don't make it anywhere near the homepage. :)

Thanks for the kind words, I was telling my wife that I'm looking forward to
making all new mistakes from my first business!

------
juanbyrge
LOL, I would not leave a job to start a code tutor site. There's no $$$ in
that space, too much free competition. Make sure you have a job lined up
before running out of money!

------
ninetenel
I feel like I'm one of the odd ones out where I enjoy my job at a large
company that offers me pretty much everything I could want at the moment

I go home, relax, read, hangout with the family and work on really interesting
open source & side projects .. I can't imagine how I could be much happier ..

IMO if your goal is to start a business start planning things out and take the
risks you need to only you have to not just when you can .. which is very
situational .. i wouldn't just go and quit your job if it's not immediately
necessary on a whim due to advice from a random blog.

~~~
gsaines
Definitely agree ninetenel. I tried to emphasize in my blog that I have
chanced into a really great, low-risk situation to quit, and it's still really
hard to drop everything to give it shot. I am envious of your contentment with
a job at a larger employer, having experienced both, a startup is definitely
not the most fun option. It's hard, likely to fail, demanding, always-on, and
otherwise irrational. I think I just caught the startup bug the first time
around. :)

------
benched
Counterpoint: Don't quit your job. Unless you're ok with the prospect of
failing, and winding up broke, homeless, and seriously depressed. Oh yes, two
weeks in the sky was the limit and I was living the dream! Two years in was a
different story. Even if you're single, moving in with your grandfather at age
35 because you have nowhere else to go is not a picnic. I'm beyond grateful to
have a 9-6 coding job again, and I'll be here for a while rebuilding my
savings all over again.

