I have a great idea for a webapp, but hardly any programming knowledge.  What should i do? - thehigherlife
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kyro
If you're not planning on paying, and want to create a team, you'd better
learn how to program. I was in your same position several months ago. I tried
looking for programmers, and those that I found were turned off by the fact
that I had no programming knowledge/experience. So, I got fed up and decided
to learn how to program. I started with Python, dabbled in some SQL, and am
currently trying to refine my Django skills. Time, dedication, and
documentation is all it really required. It's not that bad.

~~~
thehigherlife
Are there books you suggest i read, or tutorials to start with?

~~~
henning
Even though getting started with PHP and MySQL is easy, please avoid the
temptation as it will brain-damage you in ways that will take a long time to
recover from.

~~~
SwellJoe
I tend to agree with this (PHP is perhaps my least favorite language outside
of C#/Java).

But there is some really good PHP code out there. The problem is finding it--
particularly for a non-programmer. DokuWiki is very nice. Flyspray aint even
half bad. Wordpress, while extraordinarily popular, is a bit painful to look
at...it's getting better, but it's not ideal to learn from (I'm not knocking
Wordpress...I use it for two blogs and recommend it to everyone who asks about
blogging software). The majority of Joomla is downright scary bad--I feel
dumber every day that I spend working with it.

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ecuzzillo
This is a bit like saying "I have a great idea for a painting. Will you paint
it for me, and then give me half the money you get from selling it?"

~~~
run4yourlives
Your analogy is apt. What you (like a lot of programmers) fail to realize is
that selling a painting is extraordinarily difficult.

They didn't coin the phrase "starving artist" for fun.

~~~
chaostheory
The problem is unless you're guy kawasaki, kevin rose, or some serial
entreprenuer/misc luminary what proof do you have that you can outsell someone
who can program?

(hypothetically if this is the case:) it's really hard to convince someone of
your value if you can't even sell it to an angel or vc, and have cash as proof

~~~
run4yourlives
Have you ever seem most programmers give a presentation?

Enough said I think. :-)

~~~
jimbokun
Have you ever seem most managers give a presentation?

Enough said I think. :-)

~~~
run4yourlives
Well,I wouldn't want a manager giving a presentation either. I'd want a sales
guy.

~~~
euccastro
Fair enough, but read the original comment. It talks about providing the idea,
not the sales expertise.

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rickcecil
Being in the same boat as you, I found the following to be worthwhile

1) Evaluate yourself and the skills you bring to the table. It's all in how
you sell yourself. Even though I can't program, I understand experience
design, business, visual design, and can get my hands dirty with some HTML and
CSS.

2) Network locally. You're probably not going to find anyone worth working
with online. Especially if you start out: "I have a great idea, but can't
code. Wanna help?"

3) Be open to new ideas; people generally want to participate in the idea
construction and product design. They don't want to pick up something that's
been thought completely through.

4) Be willing to plunk down some cash. Get a tech lead for your project who
can manage people you pay to build your system. If it's simple enough, you can
build a decent app for less than $10K.

~~~
sbraford
Excellent points. Especially on #3 -- so few people I've talked to are open to
working on ideas other than their own flushed out ones.

"Co-founding" is more than just splitting the stock pie. It's about coming up
with the vision & direction for the company, which can't be done if one person
has already done that for himself.

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augustus
The fact that you don't know programming is no big deal. Being a programmer
for over 12 years and looking forward to my next startup, what I can tell you
is that ideas do matter.

Consider this.The same amount of time that Google spend building a billion
dollar startup is what a two bit outfit spends generating a million dollars.

Or another that goes belly up.

In other words ideas and execution equally matter. Maybe execution is a little
more important. That's why Oracle dominates database software although
initially there were multiple database startups (same idea).

A recent survey of forbes billionaires confirmed this. Many of them picked
ideas over execution others picked execution.It all depends on the situation.

In any case, you can try building a prototype by using freelance sites such as
guru.com or elance and then see what response you get from your target
customers.

I think it is important to get feedback from would be paying customers. If it
is positive then go for it.

-Augustus

~~~
ardit33
That's complete bullsh!t.

It is execution that matters. Ideas are a dime a dozen. What google did was
excellent execution of an non-original idea (there were lots of search engines
at that time).

Look at the UConnect vs. Facebook. vs. that other dude that that the same
idea. Facebook was able to execute much faster and better and got traction,
while Uconnect is just crap, and they have to resort to lawsuits.

Sure, if your idea is dumb to begin with, then no matter how good the
execution is, you wont get anything out of it.

But you still can change ideas and business plans around, and from a loser
make a winner offering. (many startups end up changing their ideas business
models at some point, including the company I am working for). If your
execution team still sucks, your products will show it, and the next guy that
likes idea, will copy it, and make a much better version of what you are
offering. (just like Friendster got hosed by poor execution).

But it is a common trait from "Business" people that think ideas matter more.
It is more of a whishful thinking. Honestly being good at business is nothing
more that having a good common sense and street smarts, and knowing how to
B.S. a little. Things that no school teaches you.

So my advice, learn how to build websites (as a programmer I'd like to
concetrate on the harder stuff), do everything you can help the whole team,
(from marketing, getting graphics, building mock-ups or prototypes) etc..
While you don't have to program, you better have some good technical skills,
and really understand what's going on and how hard or easy is to do some
stuff.

One thing that is very annoying, is how non-technical people think it is
sooooo easy to just have an ajax drop down, or that little thing here, that
little thing there, without having the slightly idea how much work it really
takes.

~~~
jamiequint
Maybe thats true if the idea is "lets make a better search engine" but thats
not much of an idea. If the idea is "lets make a better search engine that
uses a unique ranking system based on links to estimate the popularity of any
given page" then I'd say the idea is worth something.

The probable difference between ConnectU and Facebook? Facebook spammed all of
Harvard to get its initial traction, ConnectU didn't.

~~~
jimbokun
"If the idea is "lets make a better search engine that uses a unique ranking
system based on links to estimate the popularity of any given page" then I'd
say the idea is worth something."

Not without a working implementation, no.

"The probable difference between ConnectU and Facebook? Facebook spammed all
of Harvard to get its initial traction, ConnectU didn't."

Right. Execution.

------
fauigerzigerk
Ideas DO matter if you define "idea" as knowledge about what a particular
group of people needs. It's not just about one isolated idea of course. That
kind of idea is indeed worthless. It's about your ability to make good
judgements within a particular application context.

If you have that kind of knowledge and you are able to communicate with users
then please please don't waste your time learning to program. If you have no
special knowledge about a particular user community or industry then you
should learn to program.

------
Goladus
Plan out exactly what you want for the web app on paper, and be as precise and
consistent as possible.

Then pick a language and set up a development environment. (A difficult step
to get past, but you might be able to get someone to help you do this for
free)

Then start reading tutorials and doing practice examples.

Once you have a feel for how to get a basic app up and running, go back to the
specs you wrote earlier and identify some subset that you want to implement.

Begin implementing your idea until you get stuck. When you get stuck, research
the language tools you need to get unstuck. If you find yourself hopelessly
lost, either pick a different subset of your app to work on, or go back to
reading textbooks, tutorials, and forums until you better understand the
concepts.

<http://www.paulgraham.com/pfaq.html>

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johnrob
I don't know how you can find a good hacker, because there is no way for you
to judge one. That aside, your best bet is to offer a lot of equity in the
startup. More than half of the company. Your biggest selling point is that you
will take care of all the stuff that annoys hackers - designing UI screens,
marketing, face time with real users. If your idea is good, you offer more
than 50% equity, and take care of the non technical work, you are providing a
pretty good deal. What you have to remember is that, as a non-hacker, you
should feel lucky to be in the game at all. There are only two things startups
REALLY need - money and hackers. If you don't bring one of those items, it's
hard to make a case for being the major stakeholder.

~~~
augy
do people design UI screens with Adobe?

~~~
johnrob
In my opinion, you can design UI with anything visual - even pen and paper.

------
henning
It might turn out it's not such a great idea at the current time after all
because as a non-programmer you think too vaguely and declaratively. This
isn't anything personal about you, it's just human nature.

Writing code forces you to think precisely and consider practicalities that
are otherwise hidden from you as a user.

~~~
run4yourlives
>because as a non-programmer you think too vaguely and declaratively.

Youch. That's a painful trap of circular logic to fall into. Keep in mind that
most businesses have been started by non-programmers.

~~~
SwellJoe
"Keep in mind that most businesses have been started by non-programmers."

We're talking about web technology businesses here, I presume. Otherwise OP
wouldn't be trying to round up a programmer. The vast, vast, vast majority of
web application startups are started by technical founders. Even the
exceptions tend to bring some technical know-how to the endeavor (Digg,
MySpace are examples of the non-programming founder, and they're the only two
successful startups that meet that criterion I can think of off-hand).

Non-technical founders can create value. But that's hard to prove in the
initial "Hi, do you wanna start a company?" phase. That's why he's not getting
much traction from developers he talks to.

------
dorait
There are several ways you can go about this:

1\. Create a simple prototype that demonstrates the core ideas of the concept
and show it to a few people (you trust). You may be able to attract some good
developers if it appeals to them.

2\. Start a blog and talk about how your idea may benefit some potential
customers. See whether any one shows interest.

3\. Go to one of the startup meet ups (www.meetup.com) in your area and
informally discuss it or present it to the group.

4\. You may not need to build the entire software. Most of the good developers
know how to reuse existing software (libraries) to quickly build a version 1
of the product.

5\. Try a few interns from your local computer school and let them build the
first version of the product. Let a few friends try it out. If there is enough
interest, you may be able to find some supporters in funding it or developers
interested in developing it further.

6\. You can start a project in one of the open source communities like
sourceforge put some high level specs and see whether any one will be
interested in joining you.

7\. If you strongly believe in the idea and do not want to go open source,
prepare a simple plan and approach some angels. Many angel investors may also
have a good rolodex of development resources.

I think having a good idea for a great app is cool. But you need to go to the
next step of prototyping or let others visualize it so that you can get some
reactions. This will help improve the idea and also hear if such an idea is
already implemented somewhere else.

~~~
SwellJoe
"6. You can start a project in one of the open source communities like
sourceforge put some high level specs and see whether any one will be
interested in joining you."

This is a rather persistent myth about Open Source. It's entirely fiction. If
you post a working version to sf.net, you'll probably get a few bug reports
and a few questions. If you work on it for a year, and do something really
valuable to a lot of people, you'll see a few patches. If you work on it for
another year, and continue to add value for a large technical audience, you
may have a few parties who are interested in joining the project in a serious
way.

Open Source software does not spring into existence. Nearly every project has
one (or more) extremely dedicated developers pushing it forward every day. A
non-programmer wishing something into existence is not going to make anything
happen. I promise.

------
Kaizyn
Solution 1: Higher cost, shorter turn around time. Spend the money to hire
several programmers to implement your ideas for you. However, keep in mind
that you should become technically proficient enough to communicate with and
monitor the programmers. Otherwise, they're apt to take advantage of you.

Solution 2: Low cost. Long turnaround time. Start learning now how to program
and build the web startup yourself. The biggest drawback with this option is
that there's more to learn to correctly build a web application than to build
a more traditional desktop program. It could take you six months before you've
got a comfortable enough grasp of web programming to make progress on building
your program. Although if it can be built as a Facebook widget or on top of
existing services like those offered by Amazon, that may cut down on overall
development time.

Solution 3: Higher cost than #2 but much lower than #1. Turnaround time would
also be somewhere in the middle between #1 and #2. Partner with a friend of
yours who also knows how to program. This way, if you decide to learn how to
program you have someone right there to help you. You also have the option of
dividing the work where you handle the business side and let your partner(s)
handle the technical end.

------
german
If it is a webapp, the first thing that you should read is about HTML and CSS,
then Javascript.

Then start with Python.

------
aston
Well, you should find someone to execute on it. A good first step would be
posting it somewhere where hackers are known to roam so that you can get
feedback and find potential partners. Like here, for example.

~~~
thehigherlife
It's hard, because you don't want to just let you plan out there in the open
and have someone take it right out from under you.

~~~
queensnake
Indeed. Google for 'Non-disclosure Agreements'. But, probably you're better
off learning to code, even if you do get a partner. And I agree that Python is
a good language to start with.

~~~
thehigherlife
so then i guess the next question is, anyone interested in signing a non-
disclosure agreement and working on a pretty cool idea for a web app?

~~~
pbnaidu
I would be interested in signing, please email me if you're interested.

~~~
thehigherlife
e-mail addy?

~~~
alaskamiller
alaska.miller@gmail.com

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joshwa
An article posted to news.yc (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=58522> )
mentioned working with an outsourcing/offshoring partner, and giving them
equity in exchange for building the app.

Have yet to find a good example of that really working for someone...

------
neo
Get an NDA with anyone you work with. "Ideas are easy, execution is hard" is a
cop-out excuse by people who don't have any patentable worthwhile ideas of
their own!

~~~
jamiequint
ideas aren't patentable

~~~
Shooter
"ideas aren't patentable"

That's true, but business methods and certain software implementations of
novel ideas are patentable...at least in the US. I've found that truly good
ideas are easily translated into one or both of these. The problem is, most
people have "me too" ideas.

All philosophical arguments aside, the patent system can be an entrepreneur's
best friend. Yes, the system is heavily abused. I personally don't believe in
software patents. But I damn sure use them. Color me hypocritical.

------
jgrahamc
Is that you, Kevin Rose?

John.

~~~
henning
to the OP: make sure your CAPTCHAs don't suck as bad as digg's, which can be
preprocessed and ready for segmentation/recognition in three lines of code.

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yaacovtp
I did too! Found a partner who can program and we're well on our way.

------
rkabir
might be the obvious question here - but do you have any friends? (that have
programming knowledge). My non-hacker buddies come to me with ideas all the
time.

~~~
thehigherlife
yeah, i do the problem is i am more of a techie computer guy as in my skills
in the computer industry are more troubleshooting based ie, if it is broken in
some way be it cabling issue or DHCP server, i can fix it, not programming
based, a lot of my friends who would be interested in this are so busy with
school and things of that nature that they don't really have time to be
completely involved in a project.

------
axod
ideas are easy. Executing them is harder.

~~~
imsteve
for sufficiently vague definitions of "idea".

~~~
Shooter
[for sufficiently vague definitions of "idea"]

Upmodded. That is brilliant.

As an entrepreneur, I have very specific thoughts on what constitutes a "good
idea for a business." To me, it suggests that you have four things:

1\. a keen insight into what a group of people (with money) want

2\. you have a means of delivering a solution to those needy people

3\. you have a way of targeting those needy people to let them know about your
solution

4\. you can deliver your solution at a profit.

When I started investing in startups, I learned that my definition of a good
idea for a business differs GREATLY from what many are willing to pitch to me
as a good idea. Many people are willing to pitch a very nebulous 'idea.'

There are also certain ideas prevalent in the startup community now that are
MOSTLY or SOMETIMES true, but that I think people take too literally or
misunderstand.

"Ideas are worthless, execution is paramount." Look, if you have a truly great
idea...execution becomes much less important. With a great idea (which implies
an actual business model), you can make quite a few execution mistakes and
still end up with a great business. If you stumble, investors are more
forgiving and will usually find the help you need in the execution area.

"Your final business is almost always different than what you initially
intended to do" is another startup cliche that I think some entrepreneurs
sometimes take too literally. This pearl of wisdom is basically telling you
that you need to be flexible. Being flexible is very different that attacking
an industry because it is hot and hoping something shakes out.

"Get the users and figure out a profit model later. It is easy to monetize
millions of eyeballs." Again, this may be mostly true for a certain class of
business...but it can also be a ticket to FAIL.

With apologies to Mrs. Robinson, I'm actually getting pitches like this:

Entrepreneur: "I have a GREAT idea!"

Me: "Yes?"

Entrepreneur: "Plastics!!!"

Me: "What do you mean 'plastics'?"

Entrepreneur: "They're gonna be huge. Plastics are the future."

Me: "What is your actual idea? How are you going to make money?"

Entrepreneur: "Advertising?"

~~~
pius
Upmodded for gratuitous, yet relevant reference to The Graduate.

------
white
Find a partner. Like me.

