
Running as a Thinking Person’s Sport - Dowwie
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/14/well/move/running-as-the-thinking-persons-sport.html
======
gragas
I hate how much the authors of this article imply causality.

>There also, interestingly, was less activity among the runners in a part of
the brain that tends to indicate lack of focus and mind wandering.

Could it not be that people who have the willpower to run regularly also have
the willpower to stay focused?

>In essence, the runners seemed to have brains in which certain cognitive
skills, including multitasking and concentration, were more finely honed than
among the inactive men.

"Honed" definitely implies that running hones those skills, when in fact
having those very skills could be a confounding factor.

All of that said, I have yet to see a compelling argument _against_ running
regularly.

~~~
eutectic
There are plenty of compelling arguments against excessive running:

1) It is destructive to your joints and tendons. Injury rates are very high
among runners.

2) It is stressful, resulting in chronically elevated cortisol levels.

3) It is time consuming and boring (of course this is subjective), and very
inefficient at improving fitness.

~~~
samirillian
Pretty sure there have been studies positively correlating running a certain
amount with dying younger. I can't imagine sucking in city pollution can be
that healthy either. Anecdotally, it helps my anxiety.

~~~
AJ007
There is a tendency, from what I've observed, to use running as a way to have
a really bad diet and still stay thin. There is a lot of pressure for people
in their 20s and 30s who live in urban areas to both look fit and drink
heavily. Not a good recipe for long term health.

~~~
projektir
Running is not great for losing weight, so I'm having doubts about this one...

~~~
naasking
> Running is not great for losing weight

Since when? I'd like a citation on that.

~~~
brianwawok
As a sometimes fat runner, I cite myself.

Weight is won or lost in the kitchen. Full stop.

A 1 hour run might burn 500 calories. If you go and eat till you are not
hungry, you can easily eat 800 or 900 calories. You are not going to lose much
weight at the method.

~~~
njs12345
A 1 hour run for me burns 1000+ calories:
[https://www.strava.com/activities/800853045](https://www.strava.com/activities/800853045)

Of course it's possible to eat 1000 calories' worth of food in one sitting,
especially if you're eating something with tons of carbs in. But if you keep
your diet roughly the same and go on a 1 hour run three times a week, you'll
definitely start losing weight..

~~~
revelation
You are not burning 1200 calories in a hour run at 10min/mile. At an average
25% efficiency that is the equivalent of producing 350W on an ergo for a whole
hour, which is well beyond the genetic ability of the vast majority of the
population.

(The idea that sport can't help you lose weight is still ridiculous of course,
even if you are only burning 600 calories per hour. Bad habits make you
overweight and establishing good habits (like exercise) is the key to get out
of that.)

~~~
azemetre
May I ask how you came to this calculation? I have a relative in my family
that regularly touts they are burning 3,000 calories on an elliptical for an
hours worth of use.

It'd be nice to have an outlandish comparison to put towards their claim.

~~~
revelation
You start with gross efficiency, which for humans is going to be 20-30%. So
when the tool says you expended 1200 calories and you assume an average
efficiency of 25%, that means you produced 1200/4 = 300 kcal of actual work
and 1200-300 = 900 kcal in excess heat.

The 300 kcal of work equate to ~349 Watt hours as WolframAlpha will tell you,
so if you want to produce that in a single hour you need to continuously put
out 349 Watts.

Now we have put lots of humans on scientific ergos which can accurately
measure work, and that is a very high number for a single hour for any
individual. There is a chart here that gives you the kind of work rates
achievable by category:

[http://d4nuk0dd6nrma.cloudfront.net/wp-
content/uploads/2009/...](http://d4nuk0dd6nrma.cloudfront.net/wp-
content/uploads/2009/07/powerprofiling.jpg)

It's normalized by weight but it's more accurately height, someone weighing
300lbs isn't suddenly going to produce more power than at a normal weight. The
number you're looking for is "FT" or Functional Threshold, which is generally
assumed to be around the absolute maximum average power sustainable for an
hour. At the end of that you should fall over and puke your guts out. So for
someone doing 350 Watts for a hour, that would put them at world class or
domestic pro level.

------
jkingsbery
As this described by the NYT (maybe the original paper describes it better?),
there's all sorts of problems with this conclusion:

\- A very small sample size

\- Confounding factors: one group consists of collegiate runners (i.e.,
college students), and another consists of "young men" i.e., presumably men
who didn't necessarily go to college. Even if both groups consisted entirely
of college students, there might be other confounding factors that could
explain the differences rather than running itself (eg: runners spend more
time outside; runners' days are more structured; college runners probably
drink fewer nights a week than average)

\- The control group "said that they had not exercised in the past year" \-
could it just be that exercise in some form improves brain functioning?

I was a mediocre Division 3 cross country and track runner, so I feel like I'm
qualified to say that while there are many benefits of running, improved brain
function is not one of them.

~~~
cortesoft
Right? There are no conclusions they can draw about running in particular,
since they are basically comparing fit people to unfit people.

------
Benjamin_Dobell
Intellectuals often take up cycling or running, notice the benefits and then
claim cycling and running are great for the mind. Kind of makes me wonder if
they'd ever exercised before.

As long as I don't completely exhaust myself, I tend to feel much better after
I exercise, which includes playing ball sports... I just don't do it nearly as
often as I should!

~~~
fian
Team sports require you to process a large stream of input information as a
stream for a 1-2 hour window. In my experience (social league basketball,
volleyball, soccer, mixed netball) I switch off subconscious (deep) thought
processing and focus on handling the high volume of (shallow) inputs from
reading other players movements, communicating audibly and feeling through
touch/proprioception.

Cycling and running (or hiking), especially solo and on quiet roads or trails
does the opposite. You can process a much smaller amount of input information
required for navigation and hazard avoidance in "autopilot" mode. This frees
your mind to process your subconscious thoughts in a daydream like
(meditative?) way.

So to me, both activities are useful ways to modify my thought processes. Team
sports let me switch off or de-prioritise my subconscious for a while. Cycling
or running lets me work through a subconscious queue.

------
jurasource
I'm a ultra distance runner and fairly regularly run for over 12 hours. One of
the first things people normally ask is "don't you get bored", but honestly
the concentration needed to maintain good form, eat, drink, not get lost,
doesn't leave much room for much else. I've been running for over ten years,
and I'd say it's only in the last year that I've realised how important that
concentration is, to do it well that is, it's easy to trundle along allowing
ones mind to wander...

------
huac
It'd be better if they started with control groups of people who don't
exercise, and then measured the impact of participating in a running regimen.
Pretty cool findings anyways.

~~~
0xcde4c3db
Right. It's common for correlations with specific diet and exercise factors in
observational studies to disappear when the same things are studied as
interventions in randomized controlled trials.

------
justinator
Related,

How Neuroscientists Explain the Mind-Clearing Magic of Running

[http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/04/how-neuroscientists-
exp...](http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/04/how-neuroscientists-explain-the-
mind-clearing-magic-of-running.html)

------
elchief
Some things I've realized / hypothesized over the years:

I like and am good at biking, swimming, running, and weight lifting because
I'm poorly co-ordinated, so bad at other sports (that involve changing
direction right/left quickly)

I like and am good at biking, swimming, running, and weight lifting because
I'm kind of socially awkward and you don't need to talk to other people to do
those

Regarding exercise and cognition: I was studying for the GMAT and training for
a triathlon. If I did practice questions shortly after a workout, I did poorly
compared to a no-workout-day, as I was tired. I think exercise helps long-term
cognition, but impairs short-term cognition

------
blt
The first part of the article contrasts running against sports that stress
hand-eye coordination and decision making. The author claims that the
connection between those sports and overall cognitive performance is more
obvious. But the scientific study only compare runners against sedentary
people. We don't know how running compares to basketball, etc. on these
metrics. The running/cognition correlation is presented as surprising, but it
would be a lot less surprising if a stronger version of the same link existed
for decision-based sports. The speculation about running->cognition causality
should be kept to a minimum until there is data on other sports for
comparison.

------
devilsavocado
I'm curious if the effects on the brain from running are the same as from
meditation [0]. Any long distance runner will tell you that you can definitely
get into a meditative-like state. Personally, I've noticed similarities in my
mental state from meditation and running for 30+ minutes.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-
life/wp/2015/05...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-
life/wp/2015/05/26/harvard-neuroscientist-meditation-not-only-reduces-stress-
it-literally-changes-your-brain/)

------
mannykannot
Orienteering is a way to combine running (or walking) with thinking.

~~~
Numberwang
I've been running Orienteering for decades and love the sport.

I have reflected on the demographic of the participants many times.

------
ultra-jeremyx
A few years ago I got into MUT (mountain/ultra/trail) running and have been
amazed by the mental health benefits it has had on my life. I have come to
realize that it's because human beings are natural endurance athletes but the
evolution of our minds has far outpaced our biology. Most people just don't
use their bodies for what they were evolved for. For me, engaging in regular
endurance activities led to great fitness, and more importantly, happiness.

As a developer, I find that taking a mid-day break from coding to run for an
hour or two in the mountains refreshes my mind and clarifies my thinking in
the afternoon. I often end up solving coding problems when I stop thinking and
focus on the moment in running, and then--BAM--out of nowhere a solution will
pop into my head.

------
trentmb
I miss running.

~~~
cardamomo
I feel your pain.

Two running moments that stand out to me: (1) when I first got into a regular
running rhythm and noticed how much clearer my thinking felt after runs, and
(2) when I injured my foot and was out of commission for a few weeks and
noticed how irritable and fidgety I felt.

Running is addictive!

~~~
trentmb
Yeah. Went to a clinic because I couldn't put any weight on my left foot
without collapsing. Referred to a podiatrist. "Peroneal tendonitis".

Flat feet. My legs are like ><. Got custom molded inserts. My legs look like
)( with them. Didn't realize the amount of everyday pain I was in 'til I used
them.

Doesn't really matter though. I've already developed arthritis in my knees and
ankles at the age of 27, any sort of impact exercise is verboten.

Thanks for letting me vent.

~~~
Benjamin_Dobell
I'm also 27. When I was about 11 my left knee collapsed and I was diagnosed
with Osgood Schlatter syndrome - the "syndrome" part of the name makes it
sound a genetic, I don't believe it strictly is - it's just when the tendon
tears off your patella. Anyway, recovered from that with physio.

Later, teenage years, I was also diagnosed with flat feet, needed orthotics. I
don't wear them now, I probably should though as my ankles do get sore. This
also lead to back problems that I went to the physio for when I was 19.

When I was 17 I tore the ligament in my left ankle playing Rugby. That one
hurt for ages whenever I ran or walked until last year where I tripped over in
a car park and ended up on crutches because I'd torn it again. Think I might
have torn it clear off, because it no longer burns when I run or walk. So
that's a win!

I recently started playing basketball again and broke my Scaphoid (left wrist)
only 4 games in. It's nearly finished healing... I hope.

I don't know how serious your arthritis is, but if it's manageable then you're
almost certainly better off exercising than not - your body will only
deteriorate more if you don't.

That's not to say _I_ exercise anywhere near as much as I should (just walking
the dogs at the moment), however, at least personally I don't use injuries as
an excuse not to exercise, if I don't it's purely because I'm being lazy.

On the plus side, since I started to put on a bit of a gut my back pain has
decreased because I've improved my posture by almost always tensing my core to
suck in my belly ;)

New year's resolution, more exercise!

~~~
trentmb
Thanks for the shaming brah

~~~
xyzzy_plugh
It's so unfortunate that so many people don't understand when young people
are, effectively, disabled.

A friend's parents stopped talking to him and shamed him because he applied
for a handicap parking permit (doctor recommended). He can't walk much more
than 100 feet without agonizing pain. He's 28. The father's words were
something like "how will you feel when you are taking away that parking spot
from an elderly person who really needs it?"

I hope it gets better.

~~~
trentmb
I feel like an ass now- I'm nowhere near as bad as your friend yet- it
certainly hasn't hit my hips or back yet, my autonomy isn't affected, I don't
need painkillers.

For what it's worth, pass on my support to him- if only for selfish reasons; I
see myself becoming like him in the near future.

~~~
Jtsummers
NB: This may not apply to you, but here's my experience.

I was about 225 lbs and had experienced (mild) arthritis in my knees, starting
in my late-20s. Around age 32 I resolved to finally get in shape, the
arthritis was, at this point, mild-to-moderate, still in the knees (now in the
hands). Losing the weight and regular exercise (in my case running, which I'd
been doing as part of soccer on the field, but not for distance until this
point) greatly improved my arthritis symptoms. The evenings after a run, my
knees felt fantastic. Weeks where I skipped, the symptoms returned (no worse
than before, just back to "normal").

Once the weight was lost, however, the symptoms almost completely went away.
This is very much a YMMV situation, but it's something to consider.

Exercising the full range-of-motion of the joint + weight loss can help a lot,
even if it is just delaying the inevitable. I'll happily accept 5-20 years of
improved mobility even if I end up immobilized by this like a good chunk of my
ancestors.

The exercise needn't be running. Cycling, elliptical, and rowing machines are
low-impact cardio and let you exercise your knees range-of-motion pretty
effectively. Bodyweight exercises like squats and lunges and similar, done
regularly, will also improve the muscles around the knee, which can help.

Again, for some forms of arthritis this won't help or won't help as much, but
for others (like me) it can be a life changer. The path I was on, I'd be
unable to run or play soccer at this point (80% confidence in that statement,
would've sought medical treatment by this point if I'd stayed on that path).

------
croon
Admittedly I skimmed through it with a preconceived notion, but the research
seems to by convenience target endurance runners, but I don't see where it has
to be specifically running, or endurance. Why not interval runners, bikers,
swimmers, rowers, Tabata interval trainers, any aerobic training?

Specifically since research I've read suggests that VO2 improvments is more
efficient with interval training than with endurance training [*].

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26243014](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26243014)

------
douche
I just can't do running, for the sake of running. I will grudgingly run up and
down a basketball court, but at least there there is the promise of analyzing
and exploiting the geometry of the court on the offensive or defensive end to
do something interesting once you've chugged down the court.

The exercise that I miss most, ironically, given how much I cussed about it as
a kid, is sawing, splitting and stacking firewood. It can be almost
meditative, and its fantastic for building real, functional strength.

------
erd0s
Is 11 people a really small sample size for a study like this?

~~~
erd0s
Also, i don't understand it because I'm not a neuroscientist but are the brain
networks they're talking about in the abstract of the research related to
conscious thinking? I find these kind of articles so frustrating, the articles
themselves imply these big dubious claims, then you try to read the research
and you don't know what the f __k they 're talking about.

------
notacoward
It might be significant that the study was on _distance_ runners (though it's
not clear what they mean by that). Road running definitely requires a lot more
situational awareness and decision making than track running. Uneven roads or
sidewalks require instant reaction, especiall with snow/ice in winter. Cars,
bikes, walkers, dogs, etc. can come from all directions and must be accounted
for. Following a route and pacing for uphills/downhills also requires at least
a little bit of thought. Trail running is even more challenging in some of
these areas, though less in others. Running around a track is comparatively
simple. It would be interesting to see how much - if any - of these effects
exist for that kind of running.

------
cylinder
Man, NYT seems to run a piece about exercise and health, especially mental
health, and especially running, almost daily. We get it.

Personally, I hate running. I like thinking.

~~~
rconti
I find I think more while I'm running.

Probably because running is so damn boring!

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
Me too. I get to the finish line of a half marathon and wonder what I've been
doing the past 2 hours because I've been so lost in thought!

~~~
rconti
appropriate username

------
russellbeattie
"There also, interestingly, was less activity among the runners in a part of
the brain that tends to indicate lack of focus and mind wandering."

That's also called "thinking". An unfocused, wandering mind is a creative
mind.

This article completely reinforces my general opinion of runners tending to be
mindless automatons, obsessively rehashing their to-do list and daily schedule
while out on their morning jog, before having their extra-foam soy half-caff
latte with cinnamon and organic raw agave sweetener and heading out early to
'beat the traffic'.

Einstein wasn't a jogger.

~~~
theobold
And yet, Turing was.

~~~
logicallee
True, and a good argument for running, however using Turing and the effects on
him of running as an example (it clearly led to his breakthrough scientific
work as well as every other part of his life), it must be said that many
people enjoy the company of women and would not be willing to become gay (from
running) for a slight mental improvement.

(this is a joke comment pointing out how silly this thread is being.)

