
EU countries agree on copyright reforms, deal in sight next week - thg
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-tech-ip/eu-countries-agree-on-copyright-reforms-deal-in-sight-next-week-idUSKCN1PX2FT
======
alkonaut
Search engines could just wipe any publisher that insists on being paid from
the results. When publishers realize people no longer find their physical
newspaper subscription site, I think they would soon reconsider supporting
this legislation.

And if I was a search engine I’d remove the summary from the result but link
the the title to a cached snapshot such as internet archive whenever possible.

I doubt the reform will be a reality in its current form however.

~~~
asdfasgasdgasdg
That is exactly what happened the last few times this was tried.

[https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/link-tax-experiences-
germany-...](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/link-tax-experiences-germany-
spain-article-11-ec-proposal-tani/)

Germany's experience: Google did not display news snippets from publishers
unless they waived their right to be paid. They all eventually capitulated.
Spain's experience: the Spanish version of this law did not have an opt out
provision. Thus, Google News simply closed shop in Spain.

For some reason, the regulators do not believe Google when Google says they do
not make money on Google News. But it is true. Google News is a "halo"
property. Like Google Keep, it isn't itself a money-making endeavor. Google
pays for it on the theory that providing that service will make the overall
suite of services more compelling to users. But it's not worth much to Google,
and you can see this by the paucity of Google's investment in the property
compared to almost anything else.

Maybe the theory is that Google will stay in business and pay because they're
worried about competitors filling the gap? But if this service is not
economically viable for Google to run, how could it possibly be more viable
for a competitor to step into this space? The outcome of a link tax will
simply be that Google News ceases to operate in the EU, is my bet. That's a
fine result for some people, although I doubt it's the intended one. But I
guess that the EU politicians and bureaucrats will delude themselves into
believing some other outcome is possible until the very moment it happens.

Thing that really makes this puzzling is Google News barely shows snippets any
more. At least when I load the page, it only shows article titles.

The publishers and regulators are such fools on this topic. They think people
need the news. The opposite is the truth. The news needs viewers. If it's
harder to find interesting news, people spend their time on something else.

~~~
Mirioron
EU politicians never care about collateral damage. Think about the cookie law
or when they changed how VAT works for digital purchases. It took them years
to hear the complaint from small and micro businesses about how the change is
killing their business.

~~~
Brakenshire
Is that sales tax thing still a major problem? All you need to do is determine
location (through IP, credit card etc) then do a lookup in a library, then add
the relevant amount to the price.

In principle it’s an important idea, otherwise all online retailers will set
themselves up in a zero tax domicile and get an unjustified 5-20% advantage
over local retailers.

~~~
jakub_g
> determine location through credit card

Displaying the final price _after_ the user has put the CC number is not the
most trustworthy experience :)

I don't know how this is done in the wild, but some large companies often have
TLDs per country and only accept CCs from a given country on a given site
version, for example (and they redirect you by IP).

~~~
AnssiH
Another way to deal with that (which e.g. Amazon uses in Europe for
international Prime Video and Music Unlimited) is to use a fixed inc.VAT price
and then just have the exc.VAT price vary by country.

------
raverbashing
No, they didn't "agree" it. A majority passed this stage, but the divisiveness
is showing

There is still a trilogue next week plus the vote if I understand correctly

Not to mention other institutions have come against it, like the International
Federation of Journalists [https://www.ifj.org/media-
centre/news/detail/category/author...](https://www.ifj.org/media-
centre/news/detail/category/authors-rights/article/copyright-directive-ifjefj-
reject-the-romanian-compromise.html) who discovered they are going to get the
short end of the deal and Bertelsmann (though probably for bad reasons)

One good comment I read somewhere: at some point, politicians are thinking
that a proposal being hated by all sides means it's "fair"

~~~
cabalamat
What is a "trilogue"?

~~~
AnssiH
An informal meeting between negotiators from the European Commission
(executive/cabinet), the Council of the European Union (representatives of
member governments), and the European Parliament. The target as I understand
it is to reach a preliminary agreement that is acceptable enough to be able to
pass the following formal procedures.

[http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ordinary-legislative-
procedure...](http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ordinary-legislative-
procedure/en/interinstitutional-negotiations.html)

------
dmitriid
Once again, a much better take on what's going on here:
[https://juliareda.eu/2019/02/council-worst-
article-13/](https://juliareda.eu/2019/02/council-worst-article-13/)

(And previously,
[https://juliareda.eu/2019/02/article-13-worse/](https://juliareda.eu/2019/02/article-13-worse/))

------
Mirioron
This one "reform" made me go from being pro-EU to anti-EU. And if this passes
then I don't think there's anything the EU could ever do that would change my
mind on the EU project.

~~~
wazoox
If only this was the worst problem with EU. The worst problem is the very
existence of the Euro in the absence of a financial policy -- and Germany
explicitly forbade this from happening. Therefore the Euro will explode sooner
or later. For reminders, the situation is so bad that France recalled its
ambassador in Italy friday. Something that AFAIK didn't happen since WWII. EU
isn't peace; obviously, it's tearing countries apart. In a few years, Brexit
will be seen as the most prescient, great political act of the decade.

~~~
Phil_Latio
Unfortunately the macroeconomic aspect is a total taboo in Germany. Even
"solidary" leftists claim we profit so much from the Euro... The ones on the
very left get it, but they barely talk about it. Germany will never give up on
the cheated export surplus until the whole thing goes bust.

Hell, barely anyone gets it anyway. Germany is certainly not alone to blame.
How can the competitiveness of Germany increase for more than a decade without
any other EU country caring? In the past they devalued their currencies, so
why didn't they act now? Also Germany violates the 6% export surplus limit, no
one cares!

~~~
repolfx
Germany (and France!) violating the same budget rules it insists everyone else
follows is indeed a damning indictment of what the EU truly is. But Germany
isn't a winner from the Eurozone. I don't understand why everyone keeps
thinking that. Germans are suffering under it and allow themselves to suffer
because they see unifying Europe as a form of penance for World War 2.

Think about it - German "competitiveness" is just another way to say that they
work harder than everyone else. They save money that the ECB then gives to
foreign governments through QE. They make things and send them to other parts
of Europe. In return they get what are effectively IOUs from the other
countries - TARGET2 balances that are supposed to imply a transfer of "real"
euros (i.e. paper money) one day, but which are so huge those transfers will
never actually happen. There are no realistic scenarios in which an equally
sized flow of goods or services ever comes back to the poor Germans in return
for their efforts: the only plausible outcome is that either the internal
imbalances are written off for good by the EU authorities, or that other
countries exit the Eurozone and the imbalances are written off amidst acrimony
and bitterness. I cannot see any realistic path to Italy, Spain, Portugal,
Greece, eastern Europe etc ever becoming as productive as the Germans are, let
alone _more_ productive as would be required to restore balance to the system,
if only because the Germans never seem to give themselves pay rises.

In the end Germany will be the biggest loser of the EU project, simply because
they put the most into it to start with.

~~~
Phil_Latio
> But Germany isn't a winner from the Eurozone

Well our politicians see it different. Germany was able to have government
surpluses and decrease the countries debt. We have low unemployment. Relative
to other EU countries, especially France, we look pretty healthy. Despite the
domestic market being a mess and the average worker being stripped of normal
wage increases, it's hard to argument against these "successes" without
explaining in detail the macroeconomic aspects and the consequences in the
long run.

> German "competitiveness" is just another way to say that they work harder
> than everyone else.

Actually France has about the same productivity as Germany, always had since
introduction of the Euro. I think what you mean is productivity in relation to
wages, namely unit labor cost. Meaning germans get way too low wages for their
productivity.

And yes Germany will be the biggest loser: The government and export industry
gained the most, they will lose the most. Millions of additional unemployed
people, hatred from the other (former) Euro countries, far right/left parties
may have a shot of getting to power, etc..

~~~
repolfx
Yes, but the UK is outside the eurozone. It also has very low unemployment and
although the deficit exploded under a left wing government and due to the
financial crisis, it's been falling since 2010 and is now at its lowest level
in a very long time. There's still more work to do to reach surpluses (last
achieved in 2000) but the UK wasn't a part of the eurozone then either.

And of course Switzerland also doesn't use the euro and has a balanced budget,
and a strong economy.

So to me the domestic German narrative that these sorts of economic success
are to do with the eurozone seem wrong. Countries in Europe and which are not
using the Euro have been able to obtain these results too. Probably if the
euro had never happened Germany would be doing just as well today, and their
purchasing power would have effectively gone up even if the wages hadn't
because imports would have become so much cheaper.

Good point about productivity vs unit labor cost. That's indeed what I meant.

~~~
Phil_Latio
What you have to know or realize: ALL finacial sectors in Germany are net
savers. Private households, companies and now also the government. When there
are savings, someone else has to have debt. It's a zero sum game, meaning all
savings have a debt counterpart. Now where is the debt counterpart for
Germany? Look at this picture: [http://www.flassbeck-economics.com/wp-
content/uploads/2016/0...](http://www.flassbeck-economics.com/wp-
content/uploads/2016/04/Deflation-3.png) On top, private households. Below,
companies. Below that, the government. And finally, THE REST OF THE WORLD. As
you can see, from the start of the Euro, the debter position in Germany
shifted from being the government or the companies, to foreign countries.
Every year Germany needs 280€ billion or so new debt IN OTHER COUNTRIES to
have these savings. Other eurozone countries continuously lose market share
against Germany:
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Balance_...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Balance_of_trade_in_goods_and_services_%28Eurozone_countries%29.gif)

But it affects non-eurozone countries as well of course. For example the US
basically critized Germany (long before Trump) as a currency manipulator,
Trump just speaks it out loud. Because again, without the Euro, Germanys own
currency would value up and the massive exports would be impossible.

So I think you can't deny that some dramatic change happend when the Euro was
introduced and that it's still happening today.

Now if you assume Germany did not do wage dumping and the Euro wasn't
introduced, could Germany be in the same position as it is now? No. Look at
the graphic again and pin the red line (foreign countries) to the zero
position. That in turn means, you now have to pull another line down! Because
remember, all lines have to sum up to zero. Which line would you pull down?
Ask private households to stop saving and spend much more money? Or increase
company tax (while every other country is decreasing it)? The only solution
left would be for the government to make deficits.

Currently, other countries make deficits for Germany. This is not sustainable.

------
srkmno
The EU has no internet "champions" so they have few reservations about burning
the whole thing to the ground, and that is the lens through which all their
internet regulations should be seen.

~~~
mindslight
That is at least more straightforward than the US which has a similar lack of
Internet champions, but plenty of Web champions. Silicon Valley essentially
only cares about _the Internet_ insofar as it's the communications conduit
over which it delivers proprietary services.

We're essentially arguing sides in a _commercial dispute_ , because we've been
led to think that using Google is akin to running software under our control.

~~~
greglindahl
Check out the net neutrality battle in the US. Not only did many corporations
have opinions about this _Internet_ argument, but a lot of passionate
individual people had opinions. Including a ton of my friends in the Silicon
Valley.

~~~
Pharmakon
_Check out the net neutrality battle in the US. Not only did many corporations
have opinions about this Internet argument, but a lot of passionate individual
people had opinions. Including a ton of my friends in the Silicon Valley._

How did that end up working out? What does passion and experience matter if
the only real voice is a pile of money and favors in the hands of a lobbyist?
The FCC is so corrupt/captures that it didn’t make a bit of difference, unless
you count catharsis from speaking against it as a positive result.

------
Isinlor
I think they will just make Google into a true monopoly. By true monopoly I
mean a monopoly where barrier to entry is so high that there is not only no
competition, but it is impossible to enter the market.

For example, I don't think anyone will care to sign contracts with DuckDuckGo
or any other small competitor. This means that they will not be able to
compete with Google in EU market.

Currently we have also Bing. But Bing AFAIK is bleeding money from Microsoft
already, so they may end up just cutting it off from the EU.

So, Google will end with a total, true monopoly.

Funny thing is that even now everyone want to be on Google. Literally all the
money that Google is making is because people want to be visible on Google.
Media companies will sign anything to get there. If Google offers them "we
will pay you nothing", they will have to agree. If EU forces media to ask for
payment (like Spain did) they will ask for 0.01 euro for a year of being
indexed by Google. If EU forces media to ask for some "reasonable" price, then
Google will refuse with knowledge that no one else will be able to afford that
anyway.

Similar process will happen with media. Google will not bother to sign deals
with small media companies. The biggest media companies will benefit.
Actually, this is may be the actual reason behind this whole shit show.
Cutting of small media competition. But if I had to bet, I would bet on media
ad politicians being just stupid.

------
deogeo
'Reform' always means expanding copyright restrictions even further...

------
skookumchuck
> will protect Europe’s cultural heritage

What does that mean? A free and open internet means history will be erased or
something?

------
IdontRememberIt
We are outside Europe. Actually, I see this as an opportunity to buy assets of
countless condamned European small and medium companies/start ups. Sad day for
the entrepreneurs in EU.

------
IdontRememberIt
It would be interesting to see a list of pro-lobbyist. Who is pushing for this
to pass? (not speaking about a list industries, but actual company names,
association names, etc.)

------
de9xvnh7
>Italy, Poland, the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Luxembourg, Malta and
Slovakia did not agree to the draft, however.

Can they veto it, or do they have to take it whether they like it or not?

~~~
iknowstuff
The European Council needs the approval of 16 out of 28 member states,
representing at least 65% of the total EU population, to pass the legislation
to the directly elected European Parliament, which will vote on it by a simple
majority.

------
thecleaner
Well Donald Trump wants more immigrants from EU and most tech companies are
always hiring. So I guess on to the US because no more internet companies will
be created here for sure.

~~~
skookumchuck
There's a good reason all the major internet companies were founded and grew
in the US.

~~~
thecleaner
Yeah. The reason is that its a large country with a homogeneous population
(language-wise). But as long as they have a EU leaning immigration policy I
don't care what story of entrepreneurship people want to sell.

Edit: In response to one of the comments, which points out that US is not
homogeneous in the full sense of the word.

~~~
skookumchuck
> homogeneous population

Note that more than half of American's top tech companies were founded by
immigrants or the children of immigrants.

[https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/30/us-tech-companies-founded-
by...](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/30/us-tech-companies-founded-by-
immigrants-or-the-children-of-immigrants.html)

