
Depression, Burn Out and Writing Code - muddylemon
http://muddylemon.com/2011/05/depression-burn-out-and-writing-code/
======
SoftwareMaven
_I’ve always found it hard, if not impossible, to “join” groups. It feels like
everyone already has the friends they need. I don’t know how to fix that._

This has always been a problem for me. I used to think it was a sides-effect
of the dysfunctional home that moved, on average, every three months that I
grew up in. I knew I developed coping skills that put a wall between me and
others. You can only say good-bye to friends so many times before you stop
getting close enough to care that you are saying good-bye.

Then I had kids and saw much of my own personality reflected back at me, but
in different ways and degrees. At that point, I realized I probably always
would have had difficulty making friends and would probably only had a couple
friends. My upbringing made that worse, but wasn't likely the entire cause.

Now, I find that I don't know how to get around that. Articles everywhere say,
"meet with people", but I feel more lonely in those situations because I don't
know how to break into the conversation. Depression makes it worse, because
you are constantly asking yourself, "why would they even want to know about
me?" There's only so many times you can go to the entrepreneur meet-up and not
talk to people (even after presenting) before it starts doing more harm than
good.

I agree with the article that connecting with other people is of number one
importance to fighting depression. I would really like to find the guidebook
for doing that. :/

~~~
antonp
Odds are your last sentence was a figure of speech, but I will go ahead and
post this as a reference: "Intimate connections" by David Burns is a well
regarded book on the somewhat related subject of building relationships.

[http://www.amazon.com/Intimate-Connections-David-D-
Burns/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Intimate-Connections-David-D-
Burns/dp/0451148452)

~~~
SoftwareMaven
Thanks for the pointer. I've ordered it and will give it a try.

------
nkurz
I'd love to hear more people's thoughts about his "Just Say Yes To Drugs". I'm
at the point of considering drug treatments, but intellectually, I'm very
biased against them. I avoid illegal drugs, and rarely take legal ones. I'm
not absolutist, but I'd go out of my way to avoid coffee and ibuprofen. For
his example, yes, I would feel the same way about blood pressure and
cholesterol, and would work very hard to change my lifestyle before relying on
the drugs. On the other hand, something needs to change.

I'm scared of both the dependency and the effects. I think my basic fear is
that if I find something effective, it will be suicide-light, that I'll be
killing off too many parts of my self that make me who I am. It's hard for me
to trust the testimony of the treated --- I presume that there are many
satisfied frontal lobotomy patients as well. So oddly, I guess I'm more
interested in second-hand accounts. My personal experience with treated
friends is mixed. A few seem to be more functional versions of their previous
selves, others are much closer to zombie shells.

It's a hard subject to discuss, though, and I don't understand whether the
differences are chance, personality, or drug regimen.

How do you feel about your newly drugged up friends? Specific treatment
details appreciated.

~~~
lmkg
You can use medications in a temporary way to boot-strap. The difficult thing
about depression is that you don't/can't do anything that would help your
depression. Medications are an unideal, but quick & easy, way to tamp your
depression down to levels where its realistic to do other things that help,
like therapy or lifestyle changes. Once you've made progress with those other
methods, you can start weaning off of the medications. Basically, you use them
to break the vicious cycle and start a virtuous one, and once the virtuous
cycle is self-sustaining you don't need them anymore.

~~~
steve-howard
Medication is absolutely not quick&easy. It takes 4-6 weeks to take effect,
and 80% of its effect is ascribed to the placebo effect. Incidentally, the
only time an antidepressant had any effect on my mood (I've been on 6) is when
it launched me into a manic episode. The withdrawal from some of them is also
excruciating.

~~~
lmkg
You are absolutely correct medication is not a trivial solution to your
problems. The ramp-up time is significant, and if you're unlucky you'll have
to re-adjust dosages or switch medications a few times. My point was that
popping a pill in the morning is easier to get yourself to do than dragging
your ass across town to see a therapist, or getting out of your apartment to
go running for an hour.

~~~
steve-howard
I had done both for some time. To be honest, seeing my psychiatrist made me
feel like a petri dish, whereas my therapist is one of the most understanding
and caring human beings I've ever met. Psychiatric medicine has terrible side
effects, and popping pills has made me feel more horrible than depression at
times. (especially considering they actually did nothing for me).

------
Wickk
>Drugs don’t have to be the only tool you use, but they can get you to a place
where you’re healthy enough to think clearly about alternatives.

This bears more emphasis. I was on medication for a very long while and
whenever someone asks me how I got to where I am now, I'll jokingly say a very
lengthy and close relationship with various different anti-depressants.

Of course this ruffles feather in people in all the wrong ways, but its the
truth. Anti depressants and psychotropics aren't going to magically cure you,
but they are going to help you get to that place where you can figure out
what's wrong and work towards getting better.

------
gregfjohnson
There seems to be some deep intuition that anti-depressant drugs will
adversely affect something essential about who a person is, how they will
function, or how they will experience and perceive the world. I absolutely
share those feelings and concerns. A therapist gave me great advice: let's be
empirical. Instead of basing decisions on supposition, let's try a few things,
gather some data in terms of how various options affect you, and base
decisions on that accumulation of information. The only risks I could see with
this strategy were (1) going on a drug and then stopping it would permanently
damage me in some way or (2) I would become dependent on something.

The other thing that has really influenced my thinking is how it is for people
I love to live with me. Doing something to treat depression might have a
noticeably positive impact on them. So even if my preference was to not
receive treatment, based on a sense that the joys I love about life might
become muted, or that I might not be able to think as well, or whatever, there
are other people to consider.

------
etherael
I have a strong urge to rebuke most of these "We're programmed to be like
this, low status in our tribe etc etc" type lines of reasoning as outright
ridiculous, however after considering it a little deeper it seems to me that's
simply one interpretation of what actually happens.

My desire to socialise atrophies, I do not feel like leaving my house, I want
to focus harder and harder on creating things, learning, etc and I have less
and less time for "normal life". It's possible to focus on what I'm drawing
away from and characterise it as a loss, but to my view it is simply a
sacrifice I choose to make of my own free will for something that I find more
valuable.

To my view removal from the tribe is not terrifying, it is not even
undesirable. You lose some things, but you gain others, as with any narrow
focus. There is no single right interpretation of what that actually means.
Until you add in the subjective values of the interpreter, it's just a set of
occurrences.

------
chmike
What strikes me is that you consider the need to fight against your
depression. Consider the possibility that you are really exhausted as if you
ran a marathon. Obviously, you'll be slower and slower and probably hardly
running in the end. There may also be a reaction of your body to force you to
slow down so that you don't exhaust you to death.

I also found out on myself that one may become tired for some type of
activity, but I could switch to another type of intellectual activity giving a
rest for the other. This is like switching to an activity using your arms when
your legs are tired.

Every depression or burnout is different by its cause and they way we react to
it. One should be carful with popular advices. I believe in the need to rest
and get a break from what is exhausting. Then work out the small positive
steps, etc. Or switch activity. Checkout vitamins, B especially.

------
araneae
>He mentioned that the brain interprets social isolation as a sign of low
status.

That might be the case, except most of my social interactions are failed
social interactions, which make me even more depressed.

------
billjings
Stay active. Do something cardio intensive, and a lot of it.

~~~
singular
Though I agree this is a good idea, I've had the experience of doing a _lot_
of cardio exercise and having it _not_ improve things, which was crushing
given I had assumed it would make a big difference. In the end I crashed out
of training after several months and have found it hard to re-engage ever
since.

So definitely do it, but don't have expectations going in other than you'll
get that nice runner's high [1].

Deep depression is unfortunately a horrible bastard which doesn't allow you
even the relief of things which are reliably great for the mild variety, and
simply requires other people to help you. So if you find it doesn't shift, go
out and get help. That's the hardest thing I have found from my own
experience.

[1]:<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner%27s_high#Runner.27s_high>

~~~
ams6110
While I feel that cardio activity helps clear my head, I've never felt a
"high" from it. What it does is makes me sleepy. After a run the thing I want
to do most is take a nap. So I'm not sure everyone can even expect a "high"
from exercise.

~~~
singular
Hm, well after reading the wikipedia article (link in my parent post) actually
I am not sure as to whether it's been demonstrated scientifically that it is
always there, so perhaps then one should go into it with no expectations
whatsoever :) - but don't get me wrong on this, I do think it's great advice,
and for the majority of people it'll do wonders. Just be careful not to place
too many expectations on it.

------
raju
Great article, and some good insight. Like many others I have found that doing
a little bit of exercise every day really helps.

I used to (and need to get back to - been slacking off for a month or so now)
do burpees. They are relatively quick, with a mix of cardio and some strength
training, and hardly take any time at all.

<https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Burpees>

I usually do the "pyramid" that is start by doing 11, then a minute break,
followed by 10 all the way down to 1. It takes me roughly 15 minutes, but I
end up feeling really good after that.

Also, taking a break from arduous mental activity is a good thing - watch
movies, read fiction, step outside with a point and shoot camera and take
pictures. Anything that let's your mind relax for a bit.

Finally, I have found that meditation really helps. It helps to slow you down,
improves focus, and the world really seems different once you get used to it.
Just concentrate on your breath, for 15 minutes a day (or twice a day) and
everything seems a tad fresher and clearer.

Of course, this article (and the comments) have got me thinking about a
vacation. I don't take enough time off and I should.

------
turoczy
Second that emotion on the exercise. And diet is equally important. While the
Red Bull, pizza, and caffeine swilling stereotype is prevalent, a well-thought
out and balanced diet can make your coding more productive. You'll be creating
fewer bugs, thinking more clearly, and feeling more positive about your
progress if your (exercised) body has the fuel it needs, too. And reducing the
number of stimulants you're ingesting will help with that whole sleeping thing
too.

~~~
mpg33
agree with diet...i think that "you are what you eat" saying is drastically
underrated

i am currently try to adhere to the "Paleo diet"...this may a bit too much for
a lot of people (and also hard to do in western society) but eating healthy
whole foods and cutting out sugar, dairy, grains, caffeine...makes a huge
difference in terms of overall health.

~~~
ams6110
I've been doing a paleo-style diet for about 7-8 months now. I basically cut
out the sugar, grains, and most dairy. I still drink coffee (with whole cream)
and my other dairy intake would be butter and occasionally cheese. I've lost a
lot of weight but otherwise I don't feel any different, i.e. thinking not
noticeably clearer, energy/motivation not noticeably higher, etc.

------
Alex3917
"I always hear people beg off trying medication for mental health because they
'don't want to rely on a drug for the rest of their life.' I never hear that
statement when someone is talking about blood pressure medication or
cholesterol pills."

Then I take it you haven't been paying any attention to the news this past
week.[1]

There are literally thousands of academic studies on depression. Is it really
too much to ask that people learn something about the major findings in the
field before giving others advice? Sorry, but it's extremely irresponsible to
start taking drugs (or recommending them to others) without reading up on the
academic research on what they do, whether we're talking about smoking crack
or taking something your doctor prescribed.

[1] [http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/jan-
june11/cholesterol...](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/jan-
june11/cholesterol_05-27.html)

~~~
georgieporgie
_Then I take it you haven't been paying any attention to the news this past
week._

Huh? That only reinforces his point. _Millions_ of people are on cholesterol
medication. People have an irrational, negative reaction to medication related
to mental health, yet cholesterol medication is socially acceptable. He wasn't
discussing efficacy, he was discussing willingness to use medication.

~~~
gfunk911
There's a growing body of evidence that statins are actually net harmful to
the body. Millions of people are on medications that are helping them, and
other millions of people are overmedicated.

~~~
georgieporgie
...which still has nothing to do with the author's original statements
regarding the social bias against medication for mental issues.

------
tritogeneia
I'm not sure which of these factors contributed most to getting out of my bad
spot, but in no particular order:

1\. Running. (Strength training is good for many other goals, but frankly
handling heavy objects isn't safe when you're severely fucked up and can't see
straight. I can run even when I'm pretty deep in the hole and it has an almost
curative effect.)

2\. Making friends.

3\. Starting a project I was actually successful at.

4\. Learning not to tie my self-worth quite so tightly to my performance. The
notion of "human dignity" -- the idea that all people have worth, even the
ones who have personal flaws or make mistakes -- is really important.

~~~
crag
Get a dog. Change my life. Really. I picked up a 95 pound black lab/dane mix
(more lab.. and she's a BIG lab) on the advice of my therapist. Not seeing the
therapist anymore.

The dog got me out of the house. Where I met people and other dogs.

------
lelele
This recipe worked for me:

\- first thing, check for physical causes (thyroid, etc)

\- listen to motivational/inspirational speeches by people who made it

\- get out of your house! Be among trees as much as you can, and get as much
(indirect) sunlight as you can.

\- work out: both cardio and strenght training. Regarding strenght training,
bodyweight exercises are fine. Regarding cardio: do not run! Unless you have
proper technique, you can injure yourself. Fast-paced walking is OK. Other
favourites: stair-climbing, biking.

\- watch what you eat: avoid high glycemic-index foods

\- avoid consuming too much alcohol

\- don't be alone all the time

------
atlantic
Something that has helped me a lot recently is to hit the gym every day. This
has knocked a couple of hours per day off my working hours, but surprisingly I
am more productive than before, because my mind is clearer and my mood is more
positive. What I actually do in the gym is not that important - at the moment
my focus is on cardio and abs. A second important point is to stay away from
IT work on weekends - that way I start the week fresh and eager to do the job.

------
georgieporgie
Has anyone found a working environment where they're able to balance social
interaction with the isolation and focus needed to code?

I've only been happy at two jobs. At one, I shared an office with an awesome
guy, and our personalities and senses of humor meshed well. We had a
significant overlap in musical tastes, and enjoyed sharing music and witty
banter throughout our days of work.

The other was a startup where five of us worked in an open room, regularly
taking breaks for coffee and lunch together. We had a bat-shit insane CEO,
which really gave us something to bond over. :-)

Looking at job postings is overwhelming. 50% claim a "work-life balance!" and
a "work hard, play hard!" attitude, where I'm betting the work is harder than
the play. The rest talk about "entrepreneurial spirit" and other codes long
hours and isolation. It saddens me that listing hobbies and interests (more
like passions) on a resume is considered unprofessional.

~~~
edge17
Yes, every now and then in my life (and i've been fortunate for this), I've
worked on teams that were just incredible. No other way to describe it, but
you'll know it when it happens. It was just work hard, play hard and there was
a lot of satisfaction to be had at the end of the day from what was
accomplished. Everyone moves on with their lives though, and the older we get,
the tougher it is to create those situations. For me it was college and then
my first startup (which I did with my buddies from college. it was a success,
all things considered; but man there is something to be said about riding a
train on one rail with people that have your back).

------
michaelochurch
He did a better job of addressing this issue than Noah Kagan, who was talking
about mild fatigue rather than real depression (yes, there's a huge
difference). Let me add:

6\. Exercise, with a mix of activities: swimming, running (outdoor is better)
and strength training. He mentioned that the brain interprets social isolation
as a sign of low status. It also interprets physical activity (or the lack
thereof) much in the same way. Using your body (running, swimming, hiking)
tells the brain that you're an alpha and that it needs to step it up a notch.
Mild depression is when the body and brain go into gamma mode (more severe
depression is a biological dysfunction of that system) which would be a form
of hibernation, as observed in medieval mountain communities during winter,
but society isn't tolerant of that, so it leads to misery. (Some mild
depressives would be fine, aside from the loss of time, if they could sleep
11-14 hours per day.)

7\. Avoid cigarettes at all costs. Use alcohol sparingly: one drink is fine,
but it takes a week to recover from a night of serious drinking... and if
you're coding, you actually notice the loss. Avoid drugs like cocaine and
heroin like the plague. Jury's still out on occasional use of LSD or shrooms
(but people with _any_ history of mental illness need to be very cautious) but
they certainly shouldn't be a habit.

8\. Relax. Sometimes it's necessary to spend time in the woods and just (sorry
for sounding hippy-dippy) be mindful. 24/7 Internet connectivity is not always
helpful.

9\. Read novels and watch movies. There's something healing about narrative
that isn't provided by (as much as they are enjoyable to read) books about
formal semantics of programming languages.

10\. Music. It helps. I have a lot of friends who say they never would have
gotten through their teenage years, or a bad turn of business, without music.

11\. Go somewhere new, do something different. It doesn't have to be an
"exotic" or expensive vacation; if your goal is to heal, it's better that it
not be. Just a trip to visit friends 50 km away can help.

12\. 2 weeks of real vacation, as an absolute minimum, per year. Take unpaid
leave if you need to. Four weeks is best. Total productivity is maximal at 3
weeks of vacation and per-day productivity is maximized at 7-9. Europeans have
it figured out: you need _two_ types of vacation: exploration vacations to new
places (Alaska, Cambodia, Andes) where difficulty and stress are OK and
relaxation vacations where stress levels are low and variation of activity is
not required. Unfortunately, Americans get stuck having to choose one or the
other, and generally do only the first kind of vacation when they're young and
only the second kind when they're old.

For the record, if you only get 1-2 weeks but can take unpaid leave without it
hurting your career, you probably should. A 2% pay drop for an extra week of
vacation is worth it IMO.

13\. Fruits and vegetables. The casual arrow is unclear and probably goes both
ways, but depressed people tend to eat a lot of white carbs. Americans tend to
get dieting wrong, as if it's some set of religious prohibitions that have to
be followed to the letter, when in reality there are few foods one should
_never_ eat. Instead of dieting negatively ("I won't eat X") it's better to
diet positively and replace unhealthy foods with better alternatives (e.g. 70+
percent of your desserts should be fruit).

14\. "Don't fuck crazy". High-power programming/technology, as a career, is
only 10-20% more time-intensive than the average job-- you haven't seen bad
hours till you've worked on Wall Street-- but it's 200% more energy-intensive.
You need a supportive and decent partner who will be your rock of stability,
not someone who will drain you.

~~~
X-Istence
Regarding number 7, I disagree with the alcohol statement. At least for me I
tend to over-think and never commit to anything, but after a beer or two I can
sit down and just start coding and I will be more focused and have less
distractions, I will get more accomplished after those two beers than when I
am completely sober and awake.

With those beers I finally just let go and put what I have been thinking down
on paper, I can finally concentrate. Now I haven't been diagnosed with ADD or
ADHD but I have a hard time concentrating mainly because my thought processes
are already 100 steps ahead of where I currently am and are thinking about
things that are completely irrelevant for now.

If anyone else has experienced this, or knows what I can look for in
myself/and start improving please let me know. I really would love to be like
my co-workers who can just instantly dive into a task and have their mind
focused. I always feel like I am not able to produce the amount of work they
produce because I am so easily distracted.

That is not to say that what I ultimately produce is not good, no it is
fantastic, it is well thought out, takes care of the little details like
memory management, but it takes me a long time to get it done.

~~~
alt
I was diagnosed with ADHD predominately inattentive in Jan 2010. After some
education and reflection, I decided to try the medication route. My
psychiatrist had first suggested EEG biofeedback therapy, but my location was
1000km from the nearest facility, and the costs involved were prohibitive at
the time. Mindful meditation was also suggested, but I couldn't get into it. I
started Adderall in July, but the PNS stimulation was too great, so I switched
to Dexedrine 4 months ago. Since starting the stimulants, my productivity has
gone up 300%. The only side effects I have noticed is having an increased
drive where I sometimes take on more work than I should, and that even a small
amount of alcohol will make me feel ill/off for 4-5 days.

This questionnaire [http://easydiagnosis.com/cgi-
bin/expert/start.cgi?mod=Attent...](http://easydiagnosis.com/cgi-
bin/expert/start.cgi?mod=Attention%20Deficit%20Disorders%20\(ADD,%20ADHD\)) is
reportedly quite accurate for the adhd diagnoses.

~~~
Evgeny
_This questionnaire[http://easydiagnosis.com/cgi-
bin/expert/start.cgi?mod=Attent...](http://easydiagnosis.com/cgi-
bin/expert/start.cgi?mod=Attent..). is reportedly quite accurate for the adhd
diagnoses._

Wow, 86% probability for me. Sounds high enough to seek medical advice I
suppose? And I thought I'm just an average persone like everyone around me.
ADD though, not ADHD. Edit: apparently they are the same thing according to
Wikipedia.

------
gcb
have a hard time accepting the Yes to drugs.

have friends that take antidepressants and are ok. while others became totally
disconnected with other peoples feelings, like they are small kids again. zero
emotional intelligence, even tough they themselves seem happier.

~~~
gcb
think that occasional recreational drug does much better to fight depression
than daily legal drugs.

btw, recreational drugs are better understood by medicine.

------
xedarius
Christ, it's a job, you're writing computer code. If it's that bad do
something else. Nobody will die (or even care) if you leave the project, I
know it feels like the world is on your shoulders, but it really isn't.

~~~
steve-howard
Please, please, please learn more about depression and try to understand what
people go through on a daily basis. Depressed people are often confronted with
attitudes like this that fundamentally misunderstand the issue. People with
major depressive disorder, bipolar affective disorder, or their cousins can be
miserable and hate their lives even when they have everything they've ever
asked for. It's not their fault.

~~~
SoftwareMaven
One of the 5% of articles that I think would benefit from seeing points. This
GP's attitude makes it so difficult to get help. I've got a great job,
wonderful wife, amazing kids, beautiful house, cute dogs and cats, and yet I
can't pull myself out of bed in the morning.

The problem is me, not my environment. I have to change.

