
Using chatbots against voicespam: analyzing Lenny’s effectiveness - mnem
https://blog.acolyer.org/2017/08/28/using-chatbots-against-voicespam-analyzing-lennys-effectiveness/
======
sverige
Lenny is the most effective time waster for telemarketers I've ever heard.
He's truly awesome.

I have seen the reverse problem, where the spammer who called is trying to get
off the phone. Many years ago, I had a job as a manager in an outbound
telemarketing center. We had a policy that we could not hang up once the call
started -- the person we called had to hang up. Supervisors took escalated
calls where someone whose dinner we had interrupted was upset that we called.
Very rarely, those calls would then be escalated to me.

One time a lawyer in Philadelphia (not even kidding) refused to hang up, and
instead continually berated the rep on the phone with cursing. He refused to
hang up. The supervisor couldn't calm him down, and had repeated all the stock
responses we had apologizing for upsetting them and promising not to call them
back. He just kept cursing and said he was going to stay on the phone all
night since we couldn't hang up. After about ten minutes of this, the call was
escalated to me.

I went through the same items with him when he paused to take a breath. He
chuckled and said he was going to keep me on the phone all night. I told him
that was fine, since I was paid hourly and had gone into overtime five minutes
earlier. (It was five after the hour.) I said, I'm now making $22.50 an hour
listening to you. I'm happy to stay on all night. How much are you getting
paid? That made him hang up.

These days, though, most call centers have a policy where the rep on the phone
can hang up if the customer continues to curse after being asked to stop.
Requiring the rep to stay on the phone beyond that can get an employer in
trouble for creating a hostile work environment.

~~~
Nursie
heh, I might have just left the phone going, that 22.50 an hour was coming
from somehwere...

~~~
DanBC
Yes, telling me the call was costing them at least 22.50 an hour would
incentivise me to stay on the call for as long as possible.

~~~
sverige
For some reason, that made all his rage evaporate. And I really wanted to go
home. That kind of work is emotionally exhausting.

~~~
rhizome
_That kind of work is emotionally exhausting._

As well it should be.

~~~
sverige
I completely agree. Much as ex-smokers despise smoking more than those who
have never smoked, I despise marketing and advertising.

I don't want to know about your new product or what it can do for me. I've
been living quite well without it so far, thank you, and now please FO.

------
hedora
I would pay $0.01 a minute to forward calls to something like this. (Up to
$1/call or something)

I'm invisioning a marketplace of chatbots trying to pass the turing test
(ideally armed with cancelled credit card numbers, fake postal addresses and
bogus identities -- and willing to do absolutely anything to waste the callers
time).

The beauty of it is that normal spam calls have assymetric economics in favor
of the spammer.

A team of chatbots turns the economics around.

~~~
tyingq
$2/month or $6/year.

[http://www.jollyrogertelco.com/](http://www.jollyrogertelco.com/)

You can pick a specific chatbot: [http://www.jollyrogertelco.com/pick-a-
robot](http://www.jollyrogertelco.com/pick-a-robot)

~~~
anotherevan
I wish there was a service like this in Australia.

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firefoxd
I see this akin to adblockers that generates fake clicks. The sentiment here
is if we can waste their time (and money) at scale, it's all for the better.

But with fake clicks, I often read on HN that it is the wrong way to respond.
Can someone explain the difference?

~~~
goodells
I don't have an opinion on this technique with ads vs. calls, but ads are
transactional. You get some piece of content or an app in exchange for your
attention, usually initiated by the user, and with low friction to close the
tab or uninstall the app. With calls, the moment it rings you are interrupted,
the other party reached out to you, and you get absolutely nothing in return
for your wasted time.

------
homero
My favorite Reddit
[https://www.reddit.com/r/itslenny/](https://www.reddit.com/r/itslenny/)

~~~
finnn
The guy whos runs that bot is super weird about sharing his recordings/code.
I'd love to implement this on my PBX but he won't share to "prevent abuse"
(unclear what abuse he's afraid of). Idk, it sketched me out.

~~~
robocat
The author explains why very nicely:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/itslenny/comments/5lcfwq/lennys_his...](https://www.reddit.com/r/itslenny/comments/5lcfwq/lennys_history_why_he_isnt_creative_commons/)

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tyingq
If you want to implement Lenny yourself with FreePBX and copies of the Lenny
audio files: [https://www.crosstalksolutions.com/howto-pwn-
telemarketers-w...](https://www.crosstalksolutions.com/howto-pwn-
telemarketers-with-lenny/)

------
mistercow
While these conversations are undeniably hilarious to listen to, it's a little
concerning to me that by the end of the conversation the only explanation you
could really come to here is that he has dementia. If this countermeasure
becomes widespread, I'd be concerned about unintended consequences for actual
humans with age-related cognitive decline.

For example, imagine an older person who easily loses track of the
conversation picking up the phone to talk to a telemarketer. The telemarketer
mistakes this person for a bot, and yells at them in frustration.

This might be mitigated by adding some actual AI, so that the bot can
convincingly imitate a person without mental health problems.

~~~
taberiand
The telemarketer assuming they are talking to a bot is possibly a better
outcome for the older person than the telemarketer taking advantage of their
mental state.

------
tonyquart
Well, it quite helped me. At least I don't need to talk to them. However, some
of them still insist on calling me. I think legal approach is the best way for
us to make them stop, like what I read at
[http://www.whycall.me/news/consumer-wins-
massive-229500-robo...](http://www.whycall.me/news/consumer-wins-
massive-229500-robocall-lawsuit-against-time-warner-cable/) about a well-known
company which has been sued by a consumer because of telemarketing
calls/robocalls.

------
robocat
Lenny's author wrote a lovely description of how he designed Lenny (skip to
"If you're still reading, you might be interested in Lenny's background"; a
few paragraphs after explaining why he doesn't want to open source the voice
recordings):

[https://www.reddit.com/r/itslenny/comments/5lcfwq/lennys_his...](https://www.reddit.com/r/itslenny/comments/5lcfwq/lennys_history_why_he_isnt_creative_commons/)

------
johnwaynedoe
I have grown very fond of Jolly Rodger Telcom
([http://www.jollyrogertelco.com/](http://www.jollyrogertelco.com/)). I will
have to check Lenny out.

~~~
bhhaskin
Listing to the demos they aren't really boots but rather just pre-recorded
sound bytes. Lenny actually changes it's response depending on what the caller
does. Pauses, keywords, etc.

~~~
vpeters25
> Lenny actually changes it's response depending on what the caller does.
> Pauses, keywords, etc.

It's actually a sequence of recordings played in the same order every time in
a loop from the 5th. Telemarketers usually realize it a few recordings into
the second loop.

Now imagine combining machine learning with conversation analysis to create
the ultimate Lenny.

~~~
PeachPlum
You should listen to some on youtube, they are not simple loops

[https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lenny+telemarke...](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lenny+telemarketer)

one of them keeps trying for over 50 minutes

~~~
function_seven
They are loops. I just listened to the 50 minute one, and 35 minutes in he's
saying the same phrases he's already said near the beginning. "3rd eldest
daughter..."

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albeebe1
RoboKiller.com has an app that intercepts robocalls and uses bots to waste the
callers time. It feels good to get payback on those bastards.

