
‘Free-range’ parents plan to file lawsuit after police pick up children - Thimothy
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/free-range-parents-plan-to-file-lawsuit-after-police-pick-up-children/2015/04/14/ed4f7658-e2b7-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html
======
mindfulgeek
We're so obsessed as a society on making life "easy" for our kids that we
completely remove our children's ability to fend for themselves in the real
world.

These parents were doing their children a service and trying to break free
from the overprotective craziness that has everyone keeping their kids inside.
And the response they received is crazy. As if its not hard enough to go
against the grain and give your kids more independence, now there is
precedence that if you do, you may be at risk.

Our jobs as parents is not to protect kids from life, but to give them the
tools to navigate it.

Part of giving them tools is giving them the opportunity to fail and learn
from it.

The rates of depression, suicide, bullying and drug use have been climbing
higher and higher -- we're not helping our kids stay safe, we're keeping them
from gaining wisdom.

Eventually it will change, though I suspect things will get worse before they
get better... change comes when the pain of staying the same is too great --
we're all too comfortable keeping our kids inside.

~~~
monk_e_boy
It opens your eyes travelling to other countries, different rules and
different social norms.

Most places have kids running wild and seem to be enjoying themselves.
Obviously there is risk, but 99.99% of adults would go to a childs aid if
anything happened. But there is always one overprotective person in a position
of power who delights in taking away some freedom in the name of security.
It's hard to argue with someone when they are making kids safer... <cue
dramatic music - dun dun duuun> but at what cost.

------
joliss
Related visualization of how kid's range has shrunk over four generations:
[https://s-media-cache-
ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2b/4e/b3/2b4eb36f9...](https://s-media-cache-
ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2b/4e/b3/2b4eb36f91e4c82bf017188613ac9a63.jpg)

~~~
patcheudor
Yesterday I needed to run some errands and it hit me pretty hard how silly
we've become. My seven year daughter didn't want to come with me and while I'm
sure she's mature enough to stay at home by herself I went to Google to
determine if I'd be viewed as a criminal or not in the eyes of my parenting
peers or the state. It turned out that my local child protective services had
a Q&A on their site stating that it's okay to leave a child home alone at age
11. I then went to my city and state statutes and couldn't find a single law
which said it would be illegal. After a bit more research I found plenty of
parents recommending that kids not only can, but should be left home alone if
they are okay with it. This helps to build independence and self-esteem. I
ended up leaving her at home alone for about an hour and not a single bad
thing happened.

~~~
DanBC
Homes are pretty dangerous and sometimes children do stupid things. While
child protective services shouldn't be called[1] for someone leaving a child
for a short time CPS needs to have clear and easy to communicate guidelines.
They might want to say "11 and up; unless they're not stupid and the home is
safe and you're not gone too long" but, well, the target audience needs
clearer information.

[1] it'd be good if we had a "report early, report often" culture and the
funding to go with it. A single report of a mild incident means nothing
happens; several reports of mild incidents from different agencies means a
freindly chat to see if help is needed or wanted.

~~~
gglitch
"Report early, report often" sounds extremely creepy and intrusive to me. I
realize my culture is fully embracing the police state all around me, and I
try not to play the Orwell card too often, but how can it not seem eerily
Orwellian to suggest that parents should be reported early and often? What's
next, CPS monitors in the home?

~~~
DanBC
It sounds creepy _because you live in a police state_ where people abuse their
powers.

Imagine a better society. A six year old child turns up at school unwashed and
hungry. The parent, who normally collects the child every day, is not there at
pickup time. The child lives 3 miles from school. A couple of weeks later the
same child is taken to ER. The mother is evasive, but the injuries seem to
match the story. The child is again unwashed and a bit dirty and hungry. There
are very many cases where these kind of signs go unreported; and one of these
signs on it's own probably doesn't reach a threshold where anyone (even if it
is reported) will do anything about it. But when collated they start showing
that maybe there is something where the parents need more help, or ultimately
the child needs to be protected by removing it from it's family.

I live in a country where every single child attending A&E deparments for any
reason is reported to their local child protection social workers. In the vast
majority of cases nothing happens; no letters; no visits; no threats. But in
some cases abused children are detected and protected. It's not perfect, but
it's better than letting untrained people guess at what should or shouldn't
get reported. Report early report often culture avoids the need for mandatory
reporting, which is IMO worse.

When I talk about human rights my American friends say things like "obviously
we believe in human rights. The only reason we don't ratify those UN things is
a constitutional matter about our courts and our laws", but looking at what
Americans in power shows that some of them have no concept of human rights.

A bunch of this stuff is pretty clear in international law (freedom from
arbitrary interference; right to a family life for parents; right to a family
life for children; family is findamental unit and should be allowed to parent;
protect children from harm).

~~~
charliefg
First thing to get a little closer to that better society -- we need to lose
the shady system of secret courts the parents are taken through.

------
rayiner
It really boggles my mind how crazy people have gotten when it comes to kids.
I grew up in the 1990's with overprotective Asian immigrant parents.[1] They
wouldn't let us do anything other kids did. But hell if we weren't walking
home from school when we were about the same age as these kids.

As an aside, I hear people complain about lawsuits against police departments,
because ultimately any judgments are paid out of tax dollars. I find that
argument unavailing. In almost every municipality, police departments are the
product of democratic processes. The police department is shitty because the
people who vote for the leadership are shitty. This happened in Silver Spring,
MD, a suburb of DC and home to a large number of uptight paranoid people. I
grew up just on the other side of the MD-VA line: the only tragedy here would
be if these taxpayers weren't on the hook for a big judgment to these parents.

[1] I honestly thought that it wouldn't get worse than when I was growing up--
assembly rooms full of teachers and parents shrieking "just say no!"

~~~
fallinghawks
I too had overprotective immigrant parents, yet at age 6 I was walking to
elementary school, just a short distance of 4 blocks. Middle school was
considerably further at 1.7 miles, and through the woods, but there was never
any problem. We were also taking the bus, unaccompanied by parents, around
town by age 12.

I think also that people are more uninvolved with the people around them these
days, especially in metropolitan areas. People don't know their neighbors and
don't have the commitment to their neighborhood as in the past. You rarely
hear of people verbally disciplining someone else's unruly children, or
watching over them, as you might have read in stories from 50 years ago.
People now are more likely to stand and watch a crime or an accident, or
simply ignore it, rather than get involved. All this implies a greater danger
to unaccompanied children.

------
j_m_b
Until the age of 10, I roamed in about a square mile of lakes, woods, creeks
and fields. At the age of 10, we moved to a different state and city and my
range increased considerably and it was common for me to roam miles away from
my home. Granted, my parents just thought we were "in the woods" or "on the
bikepath" and probably didn't know the full extent of our travels but they
didn't make hard rules as to where we could be, either. The freedom I was
given encouraged me to push my boundaries and it expanded my mind. I wouldn't
trade those years of exploring woods, swimming in creeks and quarries and
observing wildlife for anything. There weren't many other kids who traveled as
extensively as my brother and I did. Perhaps more children would be persuaded
to put down the iPhone and go outside if they had the freedom to roam as they
please. Limiting them to their backyards and next door neighboor's house isn't
nearly as enticing as "go roam".

~~~
more_original
Similar story here. Our parents made sure that all children could swim well as
early as possible. I remember them supervising us only as long as there was a
weak swimmer in the group. From then on I think they generally kept an eye on
where we were, not always and without us noticing, but I think they actually
had a good idea of our range.

When we were around 11, we were given tools (hammer, saw, nails and old left-
over boards with rusty nails in them) to build our own tree house. Our parents
started with a basic version, and we were free to build extensions (without
supervision). This was really fun and there were only minor injuries. I'm not
sure it would still be possible today.

------
sanderjd
Anybody have the opposite perspective on this?

Supposedly, "most people" nowadays think that children should not be allowed
to roam, but I only ever hear from people who think that's ridiculous. For
instance, I just scrolled the comments here and they are literally 100% "I
can't believe how paranoid we've become". The conversation I read and hear on
this is so one-sided that I really have no sense for what the argument of the
other side even is.

~~~
sneak
I think this is just media sensationalist bullshit.

You wouldn't hire a ten year old to babysit your six year old. End of story.

~~~
Crito
I _frequently_ babysat my six year old _twin_ brother _s_ when I was _eight_.

You should seriously consider the possibility that _you_ are the victim of
media sensationalism. The world is safer for children today than it ever has
been. Children do not need round-the-clock adult supervision.

------
mml
As a parent myself, I find all of this paranoia completely insane. My daughter
and a school friend (8 at the time) walked down a half a block to our
neighborhood park here (in the scary city!) to play, and her friends' mother
found out and LOST it.

It's crippling to children, and unbelievably annoying for adults (need to run
into the store for a stick of gum? Gotta unpack the kids and bring them with
for the 1 minute transaction, or someone will call CPS!).

Here in Minnesota, my theory is that Jacob Wetterling's family and the
"news"-mongers are largely to blame. That sad incident of course, was 25+
years ago now, and is still regularly dredged up to scare the pants off of
parents.

Feh!

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Wetterling](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Wetterling)

------
gerbal
A paradox of a safer society is that tragic acts like child abductions make
more news than they would if they were more commonplace, inflating the
perception of the threat.

People feel that the threat is greater in fact because it is so much rarer.

~~~
researcher88
Child abduction by strangers is extremely rare and around 100 per year in the
US although that may be an outdated number. The one stat I just checked said
515 stranger abductions between 1990 and 1995. And that was when free range
children were far more common than today.

~~~
abandonliberty
Overprotective parents will claim that's a result of their actions.

Also, as less parents allow their children to roam, the risk to the remaining
ones increase as there are a smaller pool of children readily abductible.

Meanwhile 3 million children a year have substantiated reports of abuse (50%
of reported) [https://www.childhelp.org/child-abuse-
statistics/](https://www.childhelp.org/child-abuse-statistics/)

------
sz4kerto
At the age of 10, I commuted to a school that was 15 miles from my home
(because it was better than the local elementary school). With two of my
classmates, 'alone'. With train. Everyone considered this completely normal
and acceptable.

Life is getting safer and more secure as time passes. 2015 is safer than, say,
1995. This whole thing is just sad and crippling for kids (and also for the
parents, but it's mostly their fault).

------
brohoolio
It's interesting how people's perceptions have changed over time.

My brother and I walked home from school down dirt roads and through mature
forests 3 miles. We weren't supposed to, but it wasn't a big deal.

We were 11 and 6. I wonder what would happen today.

~~~
hurin
Now your parents would be considered libertarian nuts and prosecuted by the
state.

Notice how what were once normal parents are now "free-range" parents.

~~~
mcintyre1994
I can't help but think they've given themselves this label. I have no evidence
for that but it has way too positive connotations to be slapped on them from a
distance - with sizeable negative connotations for the alternative too. It
seems too easy to come up with something far more negative if you wanted to
make them seem bad.

------
X-Istence
I grew up in The Netherlands (until I was 8) and Switzerland (until I was 12),
at age 12 I moved to the US.

In The Netherlands me and my friends had quite the range. We were allowed to
go down to the soccer field half a mile away, I remember walking to see
friends half-way across town. In Switzerland I had a very similar range, and
by the time I was 10 I was taking the tram to school (in Basel, other side of
the city). I was allowed to roam as much as I pleased so long as I was back
home by certain times. I remember spending hours with friends in Basel.

When I got to the US I had the same amount of ability to roam around.

I am now 27 years old, and I am watching all these parents hover over their
kids, and it makes me afraid for society as a whole. All that roaming and
being outside and away from the house just made me who I am, not afraid, and
gave me a huge sense of self-worth, confidence and self-esteem.

~~~
david-given
I'm British, but I live in Zürich; it's awesome to see random packs of kids
roaming around doing stuff on their own.

I think there's two main things which make this possible: firstly, the amazing
public transport system, which means that it's basically impossible to get
stuck everywhere; also the culture that adults are not scary, which means that
they feel comfortable talking to adults (and vice versa). Admittedly, they
mostly talk in thickly accented Schweizerdeutsch, which I don't understand a
word of, but they're still talking.

In the UK it's dangerous for an adult even to make _eye contact_ with a child.

Another interesting observation is that packs of children here that I've
observed are, IMO, well behaved and polite. I have yet to see anything like
the adult/child antagonism that you see in the UK. They're obviously doing
something right here, while we're obviously not.

------
kzhahou
> Police said an officer saw a “homeless subject” who was “eyeing the
> children.”

We should focus on the real problem: nasty filthy homeless mens wanted to
steal our precious children!

Also, there's no possible way the cop just made that up.

~~~
mml
Even worse, he might have been having impure thoughts! Clearly, he should be
arrested for blatant pre-premeditated pre-crime./s

Why was this boob hanging around watching a hobo allegedly ogle unaccompanied
children? Clearly said indigent's activity didn't rise to the level of even
mild beating, so I'm not sure why officer Friendly even bothered mentioning
it, other than to scare the impressionable.

------
tw04
They were found in a parking garage where a homeless man was "eyeing the
children"?

So the police officer got the homeless man's information, right? Oh, no, no
evidence to back up his story? THAT'S SHOCKING! Police NEVER lie in order to
paint the story they want, EVER!

------
_delirium
Question on a slightly different setting: in more urban areas with public
transport, is it common for kids (past some age) to be allowed to travel
places on their own on metros/buses? It's definitely common here (Copenhagen),
and from what I gather also fairly common in other European cities, and in
Japan. But I have no idea if it is in NYC, SF, or Chicago. I think it's partly
normalized here from a certain age because we don't have school buses, and
instead kids are expected to take the regular transit. So then it's not a huge
stretch for them to take the same buses to piano lessons, friends' houses,
etc.

~~~
mml
In a rare fit of sensibility, Minneapolis public schools stopped bussing
highschool kids around. They now get free city bus passes, and our roads
aren't (as) clogged as they were with giant yellow kindertransports full of
young adults.

As a bonus,it exposes random middle-class kids to city busses they might
otherwise never consider using.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
I'm 19. Pretty sure I walked to school at 11 here in the UK. Probably earlier
actually, I can't remember when I started, I just know I definitely went by
foot to secondary school (which I started at 11).

I'm not sure I'd be okay with a six-year-old on their own, but they are
accompanied by a ten-year-old. Why can't they walk together back home?

In Japan, it's common and encouraged for young children to walk to school on
their own from an early age, or so I have heard.

------
graycat
Let's see:

(1) Fifth grade, I got a trumpet so rode the city bus downtown, 7 miles, to
music lessons.

(2) Once also downtown there was a movie I wanted to see so got a little extra
cash and went to the movie after the music lesson.

(3) About then on radio I heard Beethoven's 7th Symphony. So, when the NY Phil
came to town, I got a ticket and rode the bus, right, to downtown, 7 miles
away.

(4) After school, I did what I wanted, went exploring.

(5) Soon I got a bicycle so rode it to and from school and otherwise was GONE
on my bicycle, commonly rode five miles away, once about 10 miles to the next
state.

(6) When about 11, visited a friend my age in the country. He had a
motorcycle, and we went "two up" for miles and miles.

 _Onion_ solution for the threat of abduction and harassment of children in
MD, not entirely in jest: Put the MD police and CPS in diapers in bed
overnight, and in the morning have them write 500 times "I will not be a
fool". Have all their travels out of house or office supervised _with_ a leash
and a GPS ankle bracelet. Four days a week have them wear an orange jump suit
with lettering "I am a fool" and work on their knees with a toothbrush washing
the sidewalks. For the next year, have them do 15 minute _check ins_ with
actually competent _adult supervision_.

Much simpler solution: Drastically cut the budgets of the police and CPS.

Likely actual solution: Have the MD police and CPS lose a big law suit, and
have that legal case provide _cover_ for the bloodless bureaucrats that put up
with such nonsense to tell the hysterical busy-bodies to _cool it_.

------
protomyth
So, all crime stats are down since the 70's when I grew up, we have more
children that are out of shape, and children are no longer allowed to play
outside or go to the park unattended. Yeah, we are seriously stupid and
screwed.

I guess the "hey, check out that hill, wonder how far it is to bike there?"
mentality in children is long, long gone.

------
anon4
This is actually a prime business opportunity -- outdoors child-sitting. You'd
watch over children and escort them home and to pre-approved locations. More
liberal and hands-off parents could allow their children to explore as much as
they like, as long as they don't trespass other property.

This should also help to create a lot more job openings.

~~~
hansrodtang
A dog walking service for children?

~~~
ics
Well, [https://adlibventures.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/daycare-
sc...](https://adlibventures.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/daycare-
schoolbus-2.jpg)

I've only seen that in Japan so far but both there and in New York I've seen
the long leash where each child is clipped on with a harness. But these are
for daycares and school field trips... _clearly ripe for disruption._ What
parents need is an app like Uber for when they just need to go somewhere
_now_...

~~~
mml
Uber for kids is a fantastic idea (I mean really fantastic, as in, I fantasize
about it regularly, usually while driving my kids back and forth).

I suspect the liability & trust problems would be insurmountable though. I'd
pay up into the high hundreds per month to not have the time-suck of pick up &
drop off constantly...

Perhaps parents could pool enough money together to actually keep a full-time
chauffeur around somehow. Scheduling would be rather dicey though.

~~~
ics
If 15 parents would pay $3000 per year, they could give one person a $45k/year
salary for their services. Somewhere in there is a way to get a TaskRabbit to
Uber your kids to their next Meetup. Private daycares exist. Chauffeurs for
kids exist for people with enough money, as do parents using Uber for their
kids (there was an article here a while back about it). Start with children
and then branch out to the elderly and disabled. Call it _Chaperone_.
Piggyback on existing startups so that individuals don't have to be qualified
as drivers, caretakers, etc.; their job as chaperones is to ensure that
everyone else does their job while mostly just _being there_.

Found this but for at-home babysitters:
[https://angel.co/chaperone](https://angel.co/chaperone) Don't know if telling
people to "think Tinder" for the UI is the best association though.

I am not a parent, but I think we're losing some brightness in our future if
we can't resolve trust issues that lie in the way of better services for
parents and children. Lots to think about...

------
powertower
I read that, on average, it would take 700,000 years for a child sitting on a
bench in the park (unaccompanied) to get kidnapped.

------
jeffmould
I grew up less than 10 miles from the area where this is happening. Now
granted when I was these kid's age it was the mid-70s to early 80s, but still
from the time I was in kindergarten I walked to/from school about a mile each
way every day regardless of whether it was sunny, rainy, snowing, whatever.
After school I walked through our community to go to friend's houses at the
ripe old age of 5 or 6. And on the weekends, kids of all ages were found
running around the community from sunrise to sunset. Our parents trusted us
and the other members of the community.

Yet while our parents were letting us do this just around the corner one of
the most notorious abductions in the area took place
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyon_sisters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyon_sisters)).
So you can't tell me that there were not predators around at that time.

IMO, the difference was that instead of calling the police on kids that seemed
lost, most parents in the community would ask the kids if they needed help. I
don't know where or how the shift occurred, but today it seems we live in a
society where everyone wants to pass blame and cares only about themselves.

I have two theories why this is occurring. First, the media of today is much
different than the past. Today, it seems to me at least, the media has a bad
habit of over-sensationalizing every story to pit two sides against one
another. This story in particular has created such a havoc in this
neighborhood that these kids, and their parents, will never live a "normal"
life in that community again. The media has stirred the pot so much that there
are now lone individuals that don't agree with these parents that are going to
target this family every time they see something they don't like.

My second theory is that we live in a society now where people are afraid of
their own shadows at times. When I was about 7 or 8 I was skateboarding down a
street a couple blocks from my house. I fell and cut my chin wide open
requiring stitches. I started crying and walking home. In that time I must
have had 4 or 5 different people come up to me to ask if I was alright with
one finally giving me a ride home. I believe if this same situation happened
today those 4-5 people would have probably just called 911 instead of trying
to get involved and help me. They would have done this out of fear of being
sued for not helping better. Or sadly there are those individuals in the
community now who will label that person as a predator just for helping.

Where I live now is a small town where everyone that lives here knows
everyone. Kids of all ages run up and down the street at all hours of the day
in the summer. We have a strong local police force that is always actively
community policing and knows everyone that lives in the community. On the
other hand it is a tourist town and during the summer the population swells
drastically (we go from about 300 residents to well over 10,000), yet nothing
changes. People look out for each other. More importantly, we also don't have
any local major media outlets that report regularly on news in our area. And
because it is a resort area where there is fear if bad things are reported it
will drive tourism away, the media doesn't tend to report on all that occurs.
Yet nothing bad happens that is out of the ordinary. I mean we have our
increased bar fights, DUIs, thefts, and on occasion there has been a murder,
but still I can wake up on a nice day and hear kids running around the street
playing. No one calls the police on other people's kids. Even high school
house parties go unreported as long as the kids don't violate parking laws or
destroy someone else's property. And even if they do the party is usually just
broken up, people sent on their way, and damages worked out between the
parents.

------
api
Good. Children today are insanely over supervised. You can't individuate in
the presence of an authority figure.

------
JohnTHaller
"free-range parenting". Or, in the vernacular of all previous generations,
"parenting".

------
upofadown
How can kids get to school in such an environment? They are not old enough to
drive after all...

------
underwater
They chose to let their kids go out unattended. So obviously they accepted
that bad things might happen.

And something bad did happen. It seems like the kids learned a valuable lesson
- the police may stop and detain you and there is not a whole lot you can do.

But now the parents are saying they get to pick and chose which consequences
are OK. You can't have it both ways.

~~~
bones6
My guess is that they would sue the Post Office if a postal worker ran them
down too.

------
ddingus
I hope they do.

Somehow, a lot of us --maybe a few too many of us, have decided to go both
authoritarian and over protective with children.

Given how I grew up, this emerging set of norms is disturbing and depressing.

One thing I noticed among my peers is those who really got sheltered had a
number of common and significant problems later in life, and they all centered
on both the rebellion stage, and their exit from "the bubble" they grew up in.

Rebelling is common, and for most people, just an ordinary part of coming of
age. We get through it, and that's that. For the sheltered kids, particularly
those who experienced a very authoritarian up bringing, not only did they
rebel, but they often over did it!

I'm convinced they overdo it, because the second aspect of this; namely, the
sheltering or "bubble" type upbringing really didn't socialize them well
enough to cope with basic human realities and diversity, nor did it expose
them to the world, it's real limits and risks, not just the safe ones, or
invisible ones they didn't see while in their protective bubbles.

Many ended up OK, somewhat protective still, but many didn't either. And they
continue a bad cycle, perhaps trying harder with their own kids.

Some of this comes down to wanting to protect the kids and insure they have
all the opportunity possible. Noble, but short sighted, given that same lack
of general exposure to the world and social dynamics may well inhibit their
ability to exploit those hard won opportunities!

Another contributor is the desire to mold the kids, in a sense, insuring they
carry some values and norms the parents find important for their reasons. But
nobody really asked the kids, did they?

In fact, a big part of the sheltering is to keep them from asking too!

And that's a crime really.

If some value, religion, norm, whatever really does have merit, should it not
stand a basic and rational skepticism? Of course it should.

More importantly, does it make sense to structure how people grow up in ways
that deny them the critical mind needed to actually make those choices for
their reasons?

There is a lot wrong with this growing norm.

Heck, when I grew up, the rules were really basic. Don't get lost, don't get
hurt, don't steal, don't fuck with the animals, etc...

From there, my peers and I would gather in a meeting place, decide on the
adventure for the day and have at it! We quickly learned the world is real,
and that real things happen to people in it, and we took care of one another,
getting through just fine, despite the fact that on many a weekend some of us
could very easily have gotten killed, seriously hurt.

We can't do everything for our kids. And I submit we really shouldn't. They
need to explore, learn, do, think, play, build, and if they don't, or it's too
well managed, that managed experience will clash hard with the real world as
they enter it.

And the vast majority of them will enter it too. Better to do so eyes wide
open, experiences true, minds potent.

I also think we are going to pay really hard for this folly too. Who cares for
us in our old age? Who will be calling the shots some time from now?

They can and should file. More parents should.

------
shit_parade2
“We must ask ourselves how we reached the point where a parent’s biggest fear
is that government officials will literally seize our children off the streets
as they walk in our neighborhoods,” he said.

I think the quote speaks for itself.

