
For back pain, the subtle moves of the Feldenkrais Method can help some people - rutenspitz
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/a-different-way-to-relieve-years-of-back-pain/2018/09/27/f3e663f4-b505-11e8-a2c5-3187f427e253_story.html
======
whiddershins
I have known many people with back pain, and many people who treat back pain.
I have studied many techniques for many years myself.

Across all my friends I have seen the results of tai chi (several types), yoga
(several types), traditional chinese bone setting, acupuncture, many types of
massage, alexander technique, qi gong routines, weigh training, osteopathy,
surgery and lots more. I think there's a lot of evidence people should try to
avoid surgery.

Two people I respect who had tried everything else rave about "Pain Free" by
Pete Egoscue.

The reason for my comment is that in my experience, back pain is treatable
much more often than people think. But no one thing seems to work for
everybody. And the level of talent and expertise of the instructor/healer is
usually more important than the label someone gives to their modality.

So if you are in pain, keep investigating! Keep trying different things! And
don't fall in to the "x didn't work." fallacy. A different practitioner might
do the job even if they say they are doing the same treatment.

And if something works, it will work fairly quickly and shouldn't need ongoing
expensive treatment by the same person indefinitely. This stuff is usually
solvable.

~~~
bcoughlan
I suffered from chronic pain in all of my major joints - hips, lower back,
knees, ankles and shoulders. I went to doctors who fobbed me off as not
suffering enough to be worthy of examination.

Egoscue's book was the only thing that described what I was going through. He
describes how issues in one part of the body can have a knock-on effect on the
rest of it. The exercises really helped relieve the pain for me.

After a couple of years the pain started to go away. I had taken a month off
work to travel. When I came back I started making a conscious effort to worry
less and stress less. I think there's a mind-body connection with these things
that is not well understood.

I would also suggest this website for solid information:
[https://www.painscience.com/](https://www.painscience.com/)

------
TaylorAlexander
I do wonder if the answer to my back pain is a lifestyle where I am simply
moving my body more. As an engineer I mostly “get stuff done” at a desk. Both
my work desk and now my home desk are motorized adjustable height desks, but
still being so sedentary seems to the root cause of my slowly declining
physical shape. My lower back hurts regularly and now my neck has been hurting
again. I used to go to a chiropractor and I’m considering starting up again.

But the root of it is that I’m not active. I used to ride my bike, run, and
lift weights and I weighed 40 pounds less than I do now. But I’ve found some
personal projects to work on that I’m so passionate about I’ve wanted to stay
inside on evenings and weekends to make progress. Really, I just struggle with
a day job that perpetuates our capitalist system, and try to make up for it by
doing good open source work when I’m at home.

But I wish it was more common to work fewer hours in tech. I’m happy to be
paid proportionally but I want a job where it’s okay to work 20 hours a week
at a high tech pay rate.

I think if I did that, I might get out more. Or maybe I need to find a lower
paying job that lets me work on my passions during the day. Then in the
evenings I could go play basketball or do night hikes or something.

Has anyone pulled either of these off? More specifically has anyone pulled
this off in the SF Bay Area?

~~~
newnewpdro
Consider the possibility that you've engaged in mental gymnastics
subconsciously pursuing physical laziness, I catch myself doing this all the
time with my computing.

The reality is, you require negligible amounts of time to maintain a
reasonable level of phsyical fitness.

How many pushups can you do in a set? Probably so few that it requires less
than one minute of time. So why aren't you doing as many pushups as you
possibly can every morning before you shower? Well, simply because you don't
want to, and are being lazy.

Incorporating a simple stretching and pushup routine to your daily life, once
before showering, will have a significant positive impact on your wellness
without costing much time.

You can add a pull-up bar to a doorway and adopt a policy of always having to
do as many pull-ups as you can whenever you walk past it. I'm assuming you
can't do more than one right now, so it takes almost zero time.

~~~
usaphp
> You can add a pull-up bar to a doorway and adopt a policy of always having
> to do as many pull-ups as you can whenever you walk past it

Yep, it’s much easier to forse yourself to do a pull up then going down on the
floor for a push up in my experience too.

~~~
graeme
What's the end point of that pullup system? I can do about 12 in a row I
think.

If I did this policy, by a frequently used door, would I end up overtrained,
or would I become so strong in my arms that I could do 30-40 or so when
rested? And if so, would my arms become enormous?

I'm asking because I'm somewhat interested in this policy, but....since I
already do strength training and can do pullups, I'm not sure where it would
lead.

(I guess I could modify it to only do pullups on workout days, 3x per week,
but do them everytime I passed on those days)

~~~
matwood
> If I did this policy, by a frequently used door, would I end up overtrained,
> or would I become so strong in my arms that I could do 30-40 or so when
> rested? And if so, would my arms become enormous?

First, overtraining is so hard for someone just doing normal workouts. Second,
progression just doesn't work that way. I've been working for a few months
towards doing 500 pull-ups in a single workout. I'm at 160 now, and I still
can't do 30-40 dead hang pull-ups in one set. Finally, to become enormous you
need to eat.

------
afdaf44
I don't know about this method, but for me Dr. Sarno's method worked. I was in
so much pain that I could barely put my socks on without help. Then I read
"Healing back pain" and it convinced me that my pain was psychosomatic. Once
convinced, the pain disappeared in a day and never came back.

Dr. Sarno's theory is that the mind can use pain as a way to shift attention
away from psychological problems. The subconscious does that by reducing blood
flow in the target tissue, which causes pain. Now I don't understand how
accepting this as the cause of the pain can make it stop, but that's what
happened to me and reportedly for many of Dr. Sarno's patients.

About Dr. Sarno:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Sarno](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Sarno)

~~~
howard941
What in interesting man and concept, if not a bit (I hesitate to use the term,
it's not intended as a pejorative) reminiscent of the placebo effect.

~~~
switchbak
Which is interesting in itself - if we could figure out more about this
effect, perhaps we could harness it better.

I've also read this book, and while I didn't have the immediate benefits of
the parent commenter, it did help me to take ownership of my situation, and to
work through the pain.

For me the key was activity and building up the endurance/tone of the lower
lumbar. This hurt a lot in my existing state, but once I cut the vicious cycle
of inactivity leading to reduced muscle tone causing more pain, I was able to
turn it around and reduce my pain and dysfunction almost entirely.

------
schuke
Here’s my anecdotal evidence. I had a very bad neck pain for the last few
years, sometimes it can be very acute with no obvious trigger. I almost
wouldn’t be able to move my neck at all. I tried to cut my laptop and phone
use, but to very little avail. Untill one day I accidently found it’s acutally
more like my trapezius than my neck, then I realized it was from weight
training—the activity that was supposed to improve my posture and muscles.
Then I finally zoomed in onto one exercise: the squat. Holding the bar
required squeezing my shoulder blades and, your guessed, trapezius. The
squeeze was so slight I never felt any immediate discomfort. But from a _post
hoc_ perspective the acute neck pain usually occured a few days after the
workout. The causal link is very hard to notice. But once I stopped doing
squats, the neck pain almost never occurred again. And you’d think if it’s the
trapezius then exercises that utilize the same muscle would cause the same
symptom? Yet the answet is no.

~~~
jamesb93
Sounds like you had a tightness you weren't managing or your form was
incorrect. I'd hedge your elbow position was off or your hands were too close.

~~~
tejohnso
That, or bar placement too high on the neck, or involuntary neck straining
(chin goes up, back of neck goes forward), or maybe just too much weight. It's
a compound exercise where a lot can go wrong.

------
newnewpdro
In my teens I accidentally discovered a preference for sleeping on the floor,
having carpet as a ground barrier, and blankets or a sleeping bag for warmth,
pillow for my head. At the time I just wanted more space for computers in my
small bedroom, so I got rid of my bed.

When I moved into a larger space, the default was to get a normal western
style bed. I did this but my back and neck would randomly hurt like never
before. It appeared to clearly be correlated with the switch to sleeping on a
deformable surface.

So I got rid of the mattress and resumed sleeping on the floor. Now, ~20 years
later, I still sleep on the floor and _never_ have neck/back pain. Except for
when I stay in hotels, where floors are exceptionally dirty, in those
situations I often wake up with a stiff neck and/or back after sleeping on the
bed.

It's worth noting that other cultures don't use the squishy mattresses either,
I'm not off the map breaking new ground here.

If you suffer from back problems, I think it's reasonable to try adapting to
sleeping on the floor. If it's too low-brow for you, you can spend money on
japanese-style tatami mats - you can even get stylish bed frames for them.

~~~
dangban
Got any thoughts on the use of pillows?

A pain in the small of my back went away after I started sleeping on a hard
floor with a thin mattress-pad underneath. The discomfort was brutal the first
week though.

I still love using my big squishy pillow tho, because I like sleeping on my
side.

I know that sleeping without a pillow _has_ to be good for me... 2 million
years of _homo-noid_ evolution without pillows is all the _facts_ I need.

However, the most I'm able to go without a pillow is 2 nights. I have such
terrible sleep, that I give in and use a pillow the 3rd night.

Without a pillow I find I can't sleep on my side (which I love doing), and if
I'm sleeping on my stomach then there's too much pressure on whichever face-
cheek faces down, causing mild bruising.

I'd love to learn to stop using pillows though.

~~~
newnewpdro
Not really, I use them mostly to support my head in side sleeping.
Occasionally I'll use a folded arm instead, but that's uncommon.

Congrats on getting past the acclimation period, it seems obviously better for
your back.

How has it affected your personal life? The last woman I dated was deeply
offended by my disinterest in sharing her bed and insistence on sleeping on
the floor after our first few overnights. This aspect of the practice seems
the most problematic, it's had me consider moving to Japan.

~~~
dangban
I could never go back to sleeping on a thick mattress. I used to do 10" of
foam, on a 10" box spring. Never again.

The mattress-pad I use is 4mm of sponge. I use it to help with air-flow under
my body. I think I'm eventually going to wean myself off it and sleep on a
sheet on a wooden floor (or perhaps a tatami mat type thing).

It helps a lot that I don't have a "steady" love-life. I keep a bed in a
guest-bedroom for the dalliances though. Nobody else I've met in real life so
far agrees with the concept of sleeping without a mattress. Pity (for them).

------
tacon
For a terrific overview of the back pain industry and the scams that many
places try to pull, I recommend the new book "Crooked: Outwitting the Back
Pain Industry and Getting on the Road to Recovery"[0]. The author gave a great
interview on this podcast episode[1]. She goes into the Sarno principles,
among other topics. Strength training for the back is often a great help, but
rarely prescribed by doctors. Most people have never heard of the multifidus
muscles, much less seen the specialized machines for strengthening these
muscles so critical to spinal stability[2].

[0] [https://www.amazon.com/Crooked-Outwitting-Industry-
Getting-R...](https://www.amazon.com/Crooked-Outwitting-Industry-Getting-
Recovery/dp/0062641794/)

[1] [https://informfitness.com/podcast/50-outwitting-back-pain-
ca...](https://informfitness.com/podcast/50-outwitting-back-pain-cathryn-
jakobson-ramin/)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z-FyeG7pqY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z-FyeG7pqY)

------
crazygringo
As someone who long suffered from back pain, I studied all the relevant
techniques -- Alexander, Feldenkrais, Structural Integration, and more. And
they work in pieces, but they're different and confusing and each seem to
claim to be able to solve more than any of them can individually.

But for anyone reading this comment, there are two things I want to share,
from hard-won experience:

1) Back pain and posture are incredibly complex and counter-intuitive, and
come from a complex interplay of biomechanics, perception, and emotion. Anyone
who says "just sit up straighter" or "just strengthen your core" or "use a
standing desk" or "stretch more" or "it's a muscle imbalance, go to the gym"
or "do yoga" doesn't know anything. Even if you think one of these helped you,
it depends on the individual and they can do even more harm than good
depending on the person. I think there's even more popular quackery in posture
and back pain than there is in nutrition, and that's saying a lot. Even most
doctors don't have the slightest clue -- which should be self-evident, given
how many people have back pain and how it's not getting fixed.

2) The best place to start is "The New Rules of Posture: How to Sit, Stand,
and Move in the Modern World" by Mary Bond. [1] It's the _only_ book I've come
across that takes the right holistic approach, but still maintains respect for
"hard" science, explains the theory (medically, not according to any "school")
but also gives you guided exercises. Start there, and _then_ once you've
gained a decent understanding of your body, you'll be in a place where you can
figure out what more specific techniques you need, if you do (e.g. whether
Alexander technique or psychotherapy).

[1]
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594771243](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594771243)

~~~
paulcole
If everything depends on the individual, what’s the point of respecting hard
science?

~~~
adrianN
What cancer treatment works also depends largely on the individual, but you
shouldn't listen to quacks for your treatment either.

------
usaphp
I am working on a standing desk and am playing soccer 3 times a week, but
still had back pain. Then I started doing light weight deadlifts , 3 times a
week with back extension on a back extension bench and miraculously my back
pain started to fade away within the next 2-3 weeks. I beleive it’s just our
weekend lower back muscles that get weekend with age and lesser activity, and
they can’t hold the spine anymore correctly.

~~~
vibrato
More so weak glutes and tight hip flexors usually. Those exercises hit the
glutes super hard if you do them while maintaining a neutral spine. However it
wasn’t enough for me, my glute medius was weak and so I needed to add in yoga
moves and side planks. Ddpy is the best for back pain!

~~~
usaphp
How is yoga going to strengthen the muscles? I thought it’s for relaxation,
no? Unless you are talking about some non traditional yoga.

Also I do play soccer 3 times a week for my whole life and am a pretty fast
runner so I don’t think my gluteus or hip flexors are weak.

~~~
Tomte
I've started doing Iyengar Yoga a few weeks ago (but the specific school
doesn't seem to matter in that regard), and believe me, it's the hardest
workout I've ever done (to my shame).

I'm certain I'm building muscles there. The focus seems to be stretching of
hardly-ever-stretched muscles, but there are all kinds of postures that are
basically body-weight exercises.

------
carapace
I used to go to a Feldenkrais practitioner (since retired, alas) who was
extraordinary. At one point during the session, when one side of my body had
been "worked over" but not the other side, the relaxed leg would be actually
be _an inch longer_ than the as-yet-untreated leg.

If you're interested, find and read Feldenkrais' books.

One of the fascinating discoveries he made was that our internal
proprioceptive perceptions are often muted and/or distorted, and that this is
a pathological condition, in the sense that improving the _fidelity_ of our
proprioceptive perception improves physical, mental and emotional health.

The man himself led an interesting life. He was an engineer and physicist and
one of the first westerners to earn a black belt in Judo.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosh%C3%A9_Feldenkrais](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosh%C3%A9_Feldenkrais)

~~~
pbhjpbhj
>the relaxed leg would be actually be an inch longer than the as-yet-untreated
leg //

You probably know the "move one arm around in a circle and it looks an inch
shorter". This has been used by scammers to demonstrate their ability as
physicians, "see I can manipulate your body so effectively your limbs are
different lengths" ...

~~~
carapace
I often hesitate to share anecdotes like the above because there's typically
someone who will use it to impugn my faculties of observation and thought.

I'm not a rube, thanks.

Now, you may have heard of "evidence-based" medicine?

Or the joke, "If alternative medicine works it's just called medicine."?

The length difference I experienced was one aspect of a whole-body pervasive
change that also affected _and improved_ my mental and emotional functioning
as well as relieving specific physical symptoms.

If the effect is real and lasting, which it was and is, then in what possible
sense can the practitioner be called a "scammer"?

After all, I got the goods.

As I mentioned, this system grew from the mind of a guy who was a physicist
and Judo black belt. Those are two categories of people _who have nothing to
prove_ , eh? Physicists and Judo black belts do not need "hocus pocus" to
impress people, eh?

The method has a solid foundation and definite repeatable results. You'd be
wise not to sniff at it.

~~~
mattmanser
You 'gained' an inch which they obviously highlighted or you wouldn't have
mentioned it.

And now it also sounds like they highlighted their expertise in unrelated
fields, another common conman trick.

~~~
carapace
You're being rude.

------
mythrwy
IDK about back pain, but eye exercises are a must for me much as I stare at
screens.

I saw a series of videos years ago (which I can't find online and don't recall
the name of) where author claimed focusing on fixed distance close objects so
much is messing up our vision.

The exercises included a few things, "palming" and some other stuff (which I
tried once or twice and never stuck with) but one in exercise in particular I
do it frequently, at least several times a week, especially after a hard
session in front of the screen.

The gist of the exercise is (and again, can't find video) is to go somewhere
where you can see very far with an open horizon (the ocean, on building roof,
something like this, the best thing you can find but less than ideal works as
well). You then relax your eyes and sort of gaze off into the distance with
hands lifted up next to ears, maybe 6 or 8 inches off each ear. Then you kind
of flick your fingers around where you can barely catch a glimpse of the
movement out of the corner of each eye while continuing a relaxed gaze out in
the distance. Do that for a couple of minutes, rest and repeat several times.
It really works for me and immediately when done the ability to perceive depth
seems much enhanced and I can "see" better, or that's how it feels. I didn't
do any quantitative trials, nor do I know of any, there might be some. But
FWIW.

~~~
dangban
Recommended: Chrome extension called "eyeCare" that one can set up to
periodically remind one to do eye exercises.

------
beloch
Back pain can be caused by so many things that what works for one person will
likely not work for another. However, here is something that helped end my
back problems which were of a type that may be fairly common in North America:

When bending over, whether it's to pick something up from the ground or to
wash your hands in the sink, bend from the hips while keeping your back
arched. Do not roll your spine forwards. If you lack the flexibility to reach
your aim, make up the difference by bending your knees. Your flexibility
should improve with time.

It was through hacker news that I found an article similar to the following:

[https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2018/02/26/5877352...](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2018/02/26/587735283/lost-art-of-bending-over-how-other-cultures-spare-
their-spines)

Scrupulously correct form when rowing and weight lifting plus special
stretching exercises devised by a chiropractor did not help me. Changing how I
bend when shaving or picking things up from the ground did. If you have back
problems, pay attention to how you bend.

------
bitexploder
Dr. Sarno has an interesting theory on chronic back pain.

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/scienc...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/science-
and-health/2017/10/2/16338094/dr-john-sarno-healing-back-pain)

Some people call it quackery. I dismissed it when I heard about it. Some
people swear by it and the connection to psychology and mental health should
not be dismissed. Correlation, causation, mentally healthier people are
probably more active... etc etc. still. A novel addition to your list of “add
this to the mix” when troubleshooting.

~~~
Tharkun
I read his book, and it's definitely quackery to me. If I remember correctly,
he basically says back pain (and other kinds of chronic pain?) can be cured by
_forgiveness_. Forgive your parents for abusing you as a kid. Forgive your
robber for invading your home. And hey presto, no more pain.

~~~
crucialfelix
That's not really what he said.

His theory is that in order to avoid dealing with various mental and emotional
issues, we unconsciously stress parts or our body until it causes pain. We
unconsciously exacerbate this physical pain to literally distract ourselves
from emotional pain.

Once this is pointed out to you then you may notice the process, making it
conscious, which then allows you to consciously stop whatever you are doing
that results in pain.

------
toasterlovin
Here’s a hypothesis everyone with chronic back pain should consider: because
you sit at a desk all day and never lift heavy stuff, the natural process of
atrophy has made your back too weak to support normal, day to day activity,
causing your back to be sore all the time. If you want to test this
hypothesis, all it takes is about 3 weeks of deadlifting 3x per week (takes
about 20 minutes per workout, so an hour total per week).

Could be the best 3 hours you ever invest in anything your whole life.

~~~
buserror
If you want to get the advantage of weights without the potential injuries, do
very, very VERY slow reps with very small weights.

That's what I do, i'm quite muscular, but I do work on my shoulders with 4kg
weights, no more. But my rep lasts a good 20 seconds (or more, the slower, the
better). PER rep. I can tell you you'll feel it very quickly, you certainly
don't need a ton to get a serious workout!

And and I'd like to concur, 15 years ago I had massive back/neck pain, and
doing the weights on a regular basis completely cured that. Same 3 exercises.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Very small weights .. if you're already overweight then you're lifting quite a
lot as is. Probably any new "lifting" regime should start with only body
weight?

I had crippling back pain [literally, it put me to the floor, unable even to
crawl] in the lower back that seems to have been guarded against with weekly
Shotokan karate sessions - my hypothesis is that my sacroiliac joint was
"tight" and that the emphasis on low stances and hip-rotation has
loosened/strengthened it sufficiently to avoid damage. I did manage to damage
my hamstring setting off to run though, now I warm up before I warm up!

------
myth_drannon
This really works. I had lower back pains from working on laptop with head
looking down. Took two days workshop and on the second day all the pain was
gone. Now every time I feel minor back pain, ten minutes of certain pelvis
exercises and all is gone. Feldenkrais method birthed many more modern,
specialized methods for example Anat Baniel for kids with mobility issues. I
was really thinking its crackpot stuff until I tried it.

------
neonate
[http://archive.is/W42o2](http://archive.is/W42o2)

~~~
kensai
Thank you good sir.

------
tomcam
I cured 30+ years of back pain caused by walking recently by... standing up
straight when I walk. Not trying to be funny here. Sitting has never caused
problems because since the early 80s I developed perfect desk posture to avoid
back pain. However, I never noticed until recently that I stooped over a
little when I walked, which I do for at least an hour a day. Straightened up
and boom, no more pain after walking.

------
andrewl
I read an article about the Feldenkrais Method in _Smithsonian_ magazine
decades ago. I can't find it on the magazine's site, but the Feldenkrais
Institute has a PDF reprint:

[http://feldenkraisinstitute.com/images/uploads/Smithsonian_F...](http://feldenkraisinstitute.com/images/uploads/Smithsonian_FINY.pdf)

------
ambrop7
PSA: If you have back pain and also (what could be) bone pain in other places
like legs, pelvis and chest, you might have a disease called
hyperparathyroidism. Especially if you also have symptoms of hypercalcemia
like fatigue, headaches, GERD and palpitations. I was recently diagnosed after
more than a year of suffering and am getting surgery in 3 days, and complete
resolution of all issues is expected. Much info is available on
[https://www.parathyroid.com/](https://www.parathyroid.com/)

------
jadoint
To start with, this won't work for everyone mostly because not everyone works
from home like I do.

I used to have this constant, nagging lower back pain when I used to sit at a
desk working an office job. It wasn't the sort of back pain where you've
pulled a muscle after a botched deadlift or you just twisted the wrong way
picking up a sock off the floor, but it was the sort of pain where it just
felt like there was a warm knot in your lower back that was not-quite-painful
but incredibly uncomfortable. Hard to explain. It was hard to sit still and I
had to change sitting positions after every 5-10 minutes which made it
difficult to actually focus on work. I strengthened my core and tried various
stretches but it never went away.

This went on for years until I started working from home. I figured, instead
of trying to find the perfect way to sit, why sit at all? Maybe humans weren't
built to sit for long periods of time but I sure don't have problems lying
down! I got myself a laptop stand, started working while lying down, and I've
never had lower back issues since.

I wouldn't mind having JP's set up in Grandma's Boy either actually
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHLR3faI7lU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHLR3faI7lU)).
Monitors at eye level to eliminate neck strain, seat all the way reclined to
relieve lower back pressure, and keyboard at just the right height. Perfect.

------
seaghost
After many years I've realized that the cause of my back pain was the stress.
Get rid of the stress and the back pain will disappear.

~~~
Mahn
I've noticed this as well. It seems that when you are under stress several
muscles in your body tense involuntarily, particularly in your back and your
neck. It's very subtle, you don't really realize that your muscles are tense,
your body simply gets used to it. Over time all that tightness and pressure
causes pain, but because you don't consciously feel your muscles tense it
feels like it's coming out of nowhere. It's like having a broken arm, but on
the outside the arm is perfectly functional, all you know is that your arm has
inexplicable pain from time to time.

Long term stress causes all sorts of fun on your body (and your mind for that
matter). I don't recommend it.

------
arkitaip
For those who occasionally get a stiff neck, I can recommend these exercises
by the McKenzie Institute:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh0cXoQJADc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh0cXoQJADc)

------
jwmoz
I've had chronic back pain for the past 3 or so years brought on by years of
poor posture at the computer and training thai boxing intensely.

Tried various doctors, physios, osteos, acupuncture, tonnes of massage,
cupping.

Finally saw some progress this year - one osteo noticed my lower back and
sacrum was misaligned and adjusted it and magically the chronic pain at the
lower region improved and started to shift. I also began Pilates which I
believe helps to reduce the pain and improve your posture and strength -
massively recommend it.

Still get pains and joint issues with the upper area now, and actually semi-
sprained my lower last week but have rested and used ice baths which has
helped.

Advice: try as many pros as possible, they all give you differing advice. A
doctor said I had myo-fascia syndrome, after a rushed 5 min consultation - a
physio later laughed at this. Do Pilates - it is designed for the spine and
back posture, I found it to help and quite enjoyed it and found it relaxing.
And movement and exercise is an absolute must - swimming helps.

Don't train hard martial arts. I'm struggling to fix my back and progress in
BJJ.

~~~
oyebenny
Oss!

------
MrStonedOne
I had recurring lower back pain with a cause that didn't show up on xrays,
with the physiatrists suggesting back and hip exercises in physical therapy.
They didn't do too much to help.

Shortly after physical therapy ended, I had some infected teeth removed, and a
round of antibiotics.

The back pain, a minor neck stiffness that they had just attributed to stress,
and repeating strain/tension headaches my neurologist was treating with low
dosage muscle relaxers all went away in the days following the extraction,
never to return. I was on some pain meds for the first few days after the
extraction, so i can't know how quickly the symptoms went away, just that they
did.

I told all of them in follow up appointments, They didn't _know_ why, only
offered suggestions about what it could have been, most relating to the neck
and nerves and tension that could maybe possibly influence the rest of my
spine/hip.

~~~
goda90
Perhaps the infected teeth affected your sleep, making you toss and turn and
hurt your back.

------
twblalock
The worst part of having back pain is all of the suggestions from other people
about how to solve back pain.

------
eludwig
My particular cure (2 herniated discs with associated deep pain/sciatica) was
to resume running again after a 40 year stoppage (HS cross country). Worked
great. I do about 15-20 miles a week at an average 8:30 mile pace and the back
pain is now very manageable.

I've been careful not to push too hard, as I do not want to trade one
debilitating injury for another (knees, shins, etc). Highly recommended but
surely not for everyone, just those so inclined (I have a lot of excess energy
to burn!). A nice side effect is that the exertion is also a mood improver!

Don't underestimate vigorous activity (with sensible limits).

------
aasasd
I don't know about “eye movements playing a vital role in coordinating the
body’s musculature,” but otherwise:

\- The first class is reminiscent of guided meditation where one technique
(afaik) is that your brain focuses on the extraneous input while the body
relaxes, thus breaking the feedback loop of unconscious stress to muscle
tenseness. This sort of meditation works wonders for muscle relaxation, you
can't achieve that degree just by deciding to relax or with stretches.

\- I'd guess that the movements of each joint and muscle, among other things,
improve blood flow and relieve tenseness, which makes them perform better
afterwards.

The focus on knowing the workings of your muscles is a big part of meditation
for me—I've learned that normally I have a lot of tenseness that I can't shed
by volition, and learned to look for this tenseness when my posture is bad.
This sounds rather similar to what is said about the subject method in other
comments.

However, I'm not sure if this translates to muscle memory: I doubt that a
bunch of sessions and occasional conscious alterations to the posture are
enough to train the muscles to work a certain way. The article doesn't go into
long-term effects, and notably in the last example the author didn't apply the
lessons on her own for some reason, without getting back in the class (though
it might've just been too early to develop the self-control).

------
httpsterio
I'm open to recommendations if anyone could offer their expertise.

Three doctors have examined me and concluded that my feet are different
lengths which cause my back pain, but I can't afford any customized insoles at
the moment.

In my lower back, right on the right of my spine I get occasional stabby pain
which prevents a lot of movement. It usually stays away for over half a year
and then it acts up for a few weeks but now it's been worse. When I get the
initial stab it means that for the next few days it can come at the smallest
motion that my back doesn't agree with and then after a few days everything
seems fine.

Except for the last two months my left back of my thigh is also "stuck". The
muscles seem to be fine, it feels more like a pinched nerve. Going to a
professional masseuse doesn't help because they can't hit the spots that hurt,
it feels more like its in my nerves. My left thigh hurts even when I'm
coughing.

The doctors I've seen say that I don't have a slipped disc by visual
examination but I haven't been scanned. What could and should I do?

~~~
blanche_
Have you tried going to physical therapist? Mine has a theory that in most
cases longer legs is just wrong adjustment of pelvis.

------
mrhappyunhappy
I had back pain and started working out - mostly doing insanity from beach
body and back pain went away. I would attribute it to core strengthening. I
would not recommend insanity to people now though- the exercise program is far
too high impact and totally overkill. These days I do push ups, planks,
stretches, weighted sit ups and don’t seem to have any pain.

------
carvink
A truism I've seen - the best predictor of back pain is having had back pain.
After an initial injury about 20 years ago, Alexander technique made it worse,
but only because an incompetent instructor shoved my back when I was not
expecting it. Feldenkrais helped with recovery a lot after that. A few years
later, floor pilates helped as well. Now, it's been Stuart McGill's 'Back
Mechanic' book, which helps one do some self diagnosis, and select a set of
corrective exercises for your individual set of symptoms. McGill may not be
the final word on the topic, but he is a good one, with a deep background
studying spine biomechanics.. As whiddershins wrote: "..no one thing seems to
work for everybody. And the level of talent and expertise of the
instructor/healer is usually more important than the label someone gives to
their modality."

------
FrozenVoid
I used rolling my head left-right on a pillow slowly to reduce neck pain. It
makes the muscles in the neck work out and relieves pain after awhile. Just
staying in same place doesn't fix anything, and sudden motions engage the
fast-twitch fibers - while also causing pain. Slower motion doesn't trigger
pain.

------
sgdesign
I don't really suffer from back pain myself but in case this helps other, I
think the Foundation Training exercises are pretty good:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI)

------
bno1
I'm 23 and I had numerous episodes of back pains lasting from a few days to
weeks. I've never went to the doctor or seek professional help yet. Whenever I
have a back pain episode my pelvis is tilted, as if my left leg is shorter
than my right one. This becomes more acute after weight training at the gym or
long sessions of sitting down. I don't know if this is caused by a muscular
imbalance or that my body learned to sit in that position because it's less
painful. I found out that standing up, walking more and, most importantly,
sleeping on my back help quicken the healing. I also avoid weight lifting
during the episodes, it only makes the situation worse.

~~~
jjjensen90
You might consider seeing a physical therapist. A lot of people don't know PTs
will help with pain and movement issues even if you aren't recovering from an
injury etc. They are cheap to see and they can usually help a lot with issues
like this. I would be careful with weight training even outside of the
episodes because you could be exacerbating the issue (though I am not a DPT).

------
Fnoord
English Wikipedia contains some warnings (with references) about the
Feldenkrais Method [1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feldenkrais_Method](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feldenkrais_Method)

------
wwarner
I've done a bit of feldenkrais. It makes you think about being a bit nicer to
yourself, a bit more patient. I would think it would be an excellent approach
to training for a marathon, or learning math for that matter.

------
gymshoes
I used to have a back pain and what fixed it for me was regular exercise.

I think a common cause of back pain is sitting long hours in chairs because of
work. Any type of exercise should benefit here.

------
motohagiography
Owned a cane for dibilitating flareups of sciatica at age of 30. Then lost
30lbs, rode horses on weekends, and learned to lift weights. Can still feel
the weakness on that side from years of atrophy, and still use a knee pillow
to offset night spasms, but walking straight for 6+ years now. Some people
need surgery, but of the things to try before that, that's what has worked for
me.

------
barronli
Lots of good advices on correct exercises, but I want to mention that, correct
relaxation is equally important.

------
mbfg
At least it seems this is unlikely to hurt people more.

------
colordrops
Is this just thinly veiled mindfulness meditation?

~~~
myth_drannon
Not at all. This is more like judo combined with yoga. Meditation is about
youe mind, feldenkrais is more about movement and muscles.

~~~
colordrops
Yoga and judo are also about your mind and mindfulness meditation is also
about your body.

~~~
rutenspitz
That's very true, and there are similarities in the awareness that they
develop, but it isn't very meaningful to call e.g. judo 'thinly veiled
mindfulness meditation' because the practices are so different. It's the same
with Feldenkrais, where you're doing a specific repertoire of exercises that
aren't much like these other things.

The Feldenkrais exercises have almost an algebraic quality (or perhaps I
should say combinatorial) in the elaborate way they use symmetry. For example:
do something on side A, then do it on side B, then vary it by X on side A,
then vary it by Y on side B, then Y on A, then X on B, then do those at the
same time, then switch and do X on A and Y on B at the same time. As you go
through these permutations you can feel your brain noticing symmetries and
contrasts that it wasn't aware of before. Sometimes you become aware that a
simple movement is possible which your body had no idea it could do. For
example, that you can move your arm behind your shoulder in a way that you
would have sworn was impossible, or at least painful, and yet it's totally
easy. The method seems to work by rewiring your mental model of your own body,
mostly by expanding your awareness of what it can easily do. This is related
to pain relief.

One of the strangest effects is that it works better the _less_ you do. A
common line the trainers use is "however much you're doing, do half as much".
This is probably because the method works by getting the brain to notice finer
and finer contrasts. But it's surprisingly difficult to do less, because in
most aspects of life we're so habituated to thinking more is better.

~~~
ken
I took a Feldenkrais class once. The combinatorial quality was nifty but I'm
not sure I saw how it was fundamentally any different from a dance or martial
arts class. Teaching all permutations of movement is certainly not unique to
the Feldenkrais curriculum.

------
sunstone
Ok I've read through all the posts as of (about) the time of this post.

I've had a lot of non-professional experience with personal back pain and with
fixing the back pain of others. This is what I've found but your mileage will
almost certainly vary because back problems are usually very particular. That
said this might help suffers with a similar cause.

In my experience there are two kinds of back problems. These are a) chronic,
very bad problems and b) run of the mill everyone's everyday back and neck
problems. I've had both and I've treated a lot of the latter. __* Do not
follow any of the techniques discussed in this post without first consulting a
qualified professional. __*

These are two very different situations. Let's start with the every day stuff
because that's by far what most people experience.

This involves a lot of neck and arm pain (and lower arm repetitive strain
injury) caused (mostly) by computer mousing. It also includes the cliched
lower back pain that lasts for a few days and then generally "goes away".

These kinds of pains can almost always be fixed within 5 to 10 minutes (yes I
know this sounds insane if you've had it for a few years or more) with the
right kind of massage (not too hard but not too light) in the right places.

For neck pain the massage points are almost always vertically on the shoulders
about half way between the neck and the shoulder and horizontally between the
spine the shoulder blade about 2/3rds of the way down shoulder blade. DO NOT
MASSAGE THE NECK AT ALL. Even though that's where the pain seems to be. It's a
referred pain.

For shoulder/arm pain the massage points almost always start in shoulder blade
(a few different usual suspects) and then follow that down to just below the
elbow and then, if it's really bad -- just above the wrist or in the hand
itself).

Garden variety lower back pain can very often be alleviated with massage
points on the pelvic girdle. These are tricky to find but very effective. Five
minutes of the right pressure in the right place can make almost all the pain
"go away".

So can you go to a massage therapist and get these effective treatments? My
sense of it is, very rarely. Usually their touch is too light to elicit the
full therapeutic response. Yes you'll feel a bit better but it won't feel
fully recovered in a handful of sessions. You'll have to shop around the get
the real deal. My guess is that most therapists are unwilling to cause the
required amount of pain in their massage technique, though that is just
speculation on my part.

So, moving on to the second category, real bad chronic damage. In my personal
experience it's likely that discs or cartilage was damaged. Massage will not
fix injuries like this. Furthermore that kind of tissue has a poor blood
supply so it takes a long time to heal properly. In my case it was three
years. And definitely not 5-10 minutes as described above.

In this kind of situation, one of the most important things to know is that
the further damage you do today will not be felt until tomorrow. So suppose
you fall off your bike and cause this kind of serious damage and after 3
months you feel great so you jump on your bike and ride to work. It's all good
until the next day when you start to feel spasms return to your back. Why
didn't they tell you about this? I don't know but in my case they never did.

The only strategy here is to resign yourself to a long recovery, try to keep
limber in the unaffected joints and re-engage the damaged area very carefully
and slowly. Too slow is not good, too fast is not good. Knowing the difference
is almost impossible. If anyone knows a fool proof way to manage this
situation, this side of a team of specialists, I'm all ears.

------
ndodneocnrnd
Nonsense peddled as science; HN (and the Washington Post) should do better.

~~~
dang
Please follow the site guidelines when commenting here. They ask you not to
post shallow dismissals.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
MithrilTuxedo
They're right though. Australia covers this method (offering rebates for
people using it) but in their reviews of it they didn't see it actually having
any effect.

[http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/conten...](http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/content/0E9129B3574FCA53CA257BF0001ACD11/$File/Natural%20Therapies%20Overview%20Report%20Final%20with%20copyright%2011%20March.pdf)

~~~
antidesitter
> They're right though.

And yet _you wouldn 't know it from their comment_.

