
NSA infected 50,000 computer networks with malicious software - cyberviewer
http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/11/23/nsa-infected-50000-computer-networks-with-malicious-software/
======
malandrew
It's stories like this that make me wish we had the term "national security"
as narrowly defined as the term "treason".

I wouldn't be surprised if many of America's largest corporations most often
present their corporate interests as national security interests when they are
lobbying our politicians.

Looking at that map, we need to be asking questions about where so many of
those "implants" are located. I'm not surprised by all the little yellow dots
covering China and Russia, But what are they doing littered all over Latin
America (except Venezuela and Cuba). I would like to here the justification
for considering Brazil a national security threat. Same for the red dots in
places like Spain, Portugal and France.

The only national security threat in Brazil AFAIK is the Comando Vermelho[0],
which operates out of Rio de Janeiro. And even then, only a few of the
criminal organization leaders in Brazil tenuously relevant to US national
security interests, such as Fernandinho Beira Mar[1].

The only way to justify the extent of such offensive implants is if we are
using a definition of "national security" that is overly broad.

The only conclusion I can come to is that we've effectively waging a war
against the rest of the World without an act of Congress declaring such a war.

[0]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comando_Vermelho](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comando_Vermelho)

[1] IIRC, FBM is responsible for supplying a lot of the advanced Russian-made
arms to the FARC. Even then the FARC is only a national security interest of
the US because of our completely failed war on drugs.

~~~
tracker1
Not to excuse the actions, which I find deplorable. Isn't Brazil one of our
major agricultural trading partners? Making the internal security interests of
Brazil our security interests? If our food supply was cut by 1/3 during half
the year, that could be a big issue.

~~~
dmix
> If our food supply was cut by 1/3 during half the year, that could be a big
> issue.

That would also be a massive issue for _Brazil_ to lose their largest
agricultural trading partner. It's a competitive marketplace. Their industry,
law enforcement agencies, and courts are sufficiently incentivized to protect
it, or risk losing it to other countries.

I'm amazed that people view the need for some World Police to control and
monitor our economic interests abroad, when there has been no clear failure of
markets or democratic processes at protecting them historically.

These rationalizations sound border-line schizophrenic and paranoid. With
scenarios comparable to conspiracies theories.

Are there really economic threats that necessitate secret intelligence
agencies intercepting private communications of citizens within friendly
sovereign nations? And a threat to whom? The representative population? Or
primarily the special interests of the government - from where these secret
orders/intelligence are held, classified, and acted upon in secret?

~~~
malandrew
Furthermore, once you toss out the schizophrenic/paranoia explanation of why
the NSA is doing this, the only other explanation is economic espionage, which
they've claimed they haven't been doing. However know one knows the truth, and
given what has been demonstrated so far, most countries should assume the
worst with respect to the use of the NSA for economic espionage, and treat the
US as a suspect trading partner.

------
javert
As an American, I feel like my country is actually putting me in long-term
danger. The government is making America and Americans enemies of the _entire_
world.

If and when I ultimately have to feel the country, will I even be accepted
into anywhere else?

What if they are suspicious that I work for the NSA? Or what if they just
decide to treat Americans the way the US treats would-be immigrants to the US
now--no, you can't come in?

~~~
smtddr
>> _As an American, I feel like my country is actually putting me in long-term
danger. The government is making America and Americans enemies of the entire
world._

That has been happening since forever; it's just that the NSA stuff has made
that fact visible to people who didn't see America's hypocrisy before.

I mean, there are people who actually believe this --->
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6HOcLWP-
Ls](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6HOcLWP-Ls)

~~~
javert
I don't want to take the time to watch that video, but I actually do think
that 99% of hatred of America historically has been due to the moral
inferiority of the haters.

For example, fundamentalist Islamists, and all those who wish to sympathize
with them, are " _right_ " to hate America. Socialists are _right_ to hate
America--the American constitution fundamentally stands for the opposite moral
code, and American prosperity is evidence that the American morality is the
right one.

That said, the GOP is opposed to that very morality, and the Democrat party
even more-so, so the country is being rapidly destroyed from the inside (and
has been on that path for almost 100 years, just accelerating or decelerating
occasionally).

~~~
marcosdumay
Nope. The reason some people hate the US is because the country interferes (up
to the point of overthrowing governments) with the entire world.

Yeah, it can be argued that there is some kind of problem with people more
prone to hating than to actually dealing with the problem. But there is no
excuse to think the reason that they target the US any other than them
destroying their country.

------
tptacek
We don't need the Snowden disclosures to know this; it has for 15 years been
the worst kept secret in computer security. People from the various groups in
NSA that do this work talk about having done it on Twitter. Some of the
smartest people in vulnerability research came from stints in NSA.

Be outraged that we're spying on your country if that makes you feel better, I
guess. I'd rather nobody spied on each other either. But it is intellectually
dishonest to pretend that people are just now discovering that NSA was
breaking into computers around the world. That is literally the _charter_ of
the NSA. It's why they exist at all. There isn't even a pretense of a
different purpose for the organization.

~~~
pvnick
>But it is intellectually dishonest to pretend that people are just now
discovering that NSA was breaking into computers around the world. That is
literally the charter of the NSA. It's why they exist at all.

You're presenting a red herring here, tptacek. Any third grader who played
played Splinter Cell would say, "No duh!" But the news isn't that the NSA is
breaking into computers. The news is the _scope_ of the intrusions (installing
malware on 50k computers), and of the _motivations_ for the behavior. We've
been told it's to protect us from the extremist muslims attempting to
establish a caliphate here in America [1]. That was a lie. 50k computers with
US-planted malware on them is not a defensive maneuver. It's an offensive one.
It's not about protecting America. It's about global information dominance.

Now, whether we want that or not is a different question; there are advantages
and disadvantages to the issue depending to a large degree on whether or not
you believe in American exceptionalism. But this is about an executive power
grab, not about "spies spy, let's all go home now," and you're deluding
yourself if you believe otherwise.

[1]
[http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/speeches_testimonies/T...](http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/speeches_testimonies/Transcript_of_GEN_Alexanders_Black_Hat_Speech_31_July_2013.pdf)

~~~
tptacek
The NSA was breaking into huge numbers of computers long before we were
worried about a "caliphate", and the fact that they were doing it was showing
up on people's resumes before 9/11 as well.

And this isn't about "American Exceptionalism". China didn't hack Google
because they were upset about NSA hacking; they did it because Google had
information they wanted, so they took it.

~~~
pvnick
Then let's stop deluding ourselves and make it clear that the NSA's charter is
about promoting what a small number of powerful unelected beaurocrats believe
to be American interests, both politically and economically [1], without
significant oversight. Then we can have an honest discussion on whether or not
that's a good thing.

[1] [http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-
braz...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-
petrobras)

~~~
malandrew
And while we're at it, let's stop letting them wave the "but the terrorists"
flag every time they justify a program for which the goal is a lot more than
terrorism (assuming many programs are about terrorism at all. Personally, I
suspect most programs have nothing to do with terrorism, but that there is no
better way to push through support than to argue "but the terrorists").

~~~
belzeboss
Many attacks against USA are motivated because of actions like the ones from
NSA. Other countries are starting to consider the USA an enemy to be defeated
because bulshit likes this is getting shown. If citizens of other countries
start to make an outcry their leaders will make retaliations even if just for
show.

------
dragonbonheur
Don't people usually get to spend decades in prison for that? Shouldn't
justice be the same for the NSA as it was for Kevin Mitnick?

~~~
smtddr
As much as I _really_ don't like what the NSA is doing, this argument isn't
valid. Law enforcement privileges cannot be directly compared to those of
regular citizens. If you want to argue they've abused their privileges... then
I'm with you 1,337%

~~~
salient
Is NSA "law enforcement" though? They are spies. It is (or should be) also
quite _illegal_ for them to be doing that to its own citizens, so if they do
that, they _should_ be in prison.

Too bad we live in a time where the president of US and Congress, prefer to
_protect_ these guys no matter what (whether it's spying or torture), instead
of punishing them according to the law.

~~~
malandrew
I really don't consider the NSA to be law enforcement. What, if any, US laws
are they responsible for enforcing?

The FBI, Secret Service, Highway Patrol, city, state and country police
departments, sheriffs, etc. are all in charge of enforcing laws. The NSA and
the CIA as far as I can tell are not. Additionally neither are really tasked
with domestic operations of any kind. National domestic law enforcement issues
fall under the jurisdiction of the FBI.

------
belorn
What would happen if NSA mistakenly targets a nuclear reactor, and a bug in
the malicious software caused a meltdown.

Is that a declaration of war, similar to a US launching a nuke? Would US be
liable, and under what jurisdiction? Could the US President be put under
Interpool arrest warrant, charged as an terrorist?

Sabotage, especially when the target can not be fully verified, is a dangerous
game. IP addresses are easily mistakenly taken as identity, even if proxying
is the number one method to evade detection.

~~~
tptacek
Yes, that seems pretty simple: if NSA hacking caused a nuclear disaster, that
would be an act of war. And?

~~~
looser
No, that would not simply be an act of war. If that was the case, it would
actually be a war crime, according to the international humanitarian law.

~~~
tptacek
"International law" is a lie we tell ourselves to make us feel safer. And, I'm
on the "all wars are crimes" side of this issue as well.

------
bediger4000
So, the 250 lb gorilla in the room: Linux, or Windows or ...?

Seriously, I'd like to know. I mean it's probably Windows for all the usual
reasons (incomparable installed base, lots of attack surface, active exploit
community, MSFT gives exploits to NSA before publishing), but what if it
isn't? What if all this is done by Cisco IOS?

~~~
tracker1
Given the amount of closed source routing hardware built by U.S. companies, it
would surprise me more if they weren't complicit in similar activities to
Microsoft on this topic. I've never been big on conspiracy theories, but this
isn't really so much a conspiracy as what would be an obvious point of being
able to distribute information from global sources.

When Iran buys computer hardware via third parties, odds are the software may
well be a generation or two older... Having knowledge of internal exploit
vectors would be invaluable to a state actor (like the NSA).

In my career I've been contacted (usually by recruiter) to consider projects
by the RIAA, MPAA and the NSA... None of these were cracking projects or
otherwise covert that I am aware of. Just the same, I don't think I could work
for an organization that works directly against ideologies that I believe in..
those being liberty, privacy and the greater public good. On the last point
some may well believe that these organizations work towards that, I disagree.

------
imd23
Is it me or with NSA entities power we do not live in democracy anymore? They
can manipulate everything, from google results, voice, emails to the actuals
votes.

------
balabaster
what pisses me off most about this is that if you, Joe Public does it, it's
illegal and if you get caught, you're arrested and charged for computer fraud,
espionage or whatever else they can pin on you. But it's fine for them to do
the same thing. The hypocrisy is disgraceful.

~~~
cypherpunks01
Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you King.

~~~
balabaster
Ain't that the truth

------
d0ugie
On one hand I can see how this looks bad (along with all the other
revelations), but you've got to admit, for the taxes we've been paying, it's
impressive how, albeit arguably misguided, talented and prolific our
intelligence agencies are.

------
imahboob
By treating allies like enemies US is creating new enemies.

