
New 13-inch MacBook Pro - gshakir
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/05/apple-updates-13-inch-macbook-pro-with-magic-keyboard-double-the-storage-and-faster-performance/
======
MaintenanceMode
Bringing back the escape key is such a admission of their original screw up.
I'm glad they admitted it and reversed the design decision. But I'm still on a
2012 15" MacBook that's running strong. I normally would have updated but
using my work 15" has been horrific between the dongles, the keyboard randomly
dropping keys (last week "G" would not work, now it's back. The most
infuriating thing about the touch bar, out of many things, is the fact that
the Escape Key doesn't line up with the upper left, it's offset. So decades of
muscle memory has to change by s quarter inch. What a pain in the ass. Yes I'm
a vi user.

~~~
dkonofalski
I'm still surprised that so many people are stuck on the Escape key but it's
probably no surprise that the ones that are stuck are all developers using vi
or emacs. I love the Touch Bar and had no problem adjusting/remapping and find
the utility of the Touch Bar for video and audio editing to be invaluable now.
I wasn't sold on it before but, over the last year or so, I'll be really
disappointed if they remove it. Adding the escape key back seems like a good
compromise for both parties, imho.

~~~
arcticbull
I've used the touch bar for years, and frankly, it's provided me zero value
whatsoever. The only thing I use it for is occasionally adjusting volume or
brightness but of course I can no longer do that without looking down at what
I'm manipulating. Third party apps have totally ignored it. The physical
escape key is the second useful thing in the entire function row, but hey at
least it's got two useful things now (an escape key and a touch ID/power
button), so that's a 100% increase!

I went so far as to build a physical escape key -- #couragekey -- a few years
back (just as a joke, but it does work)
[https://twitter.com/martinmroz/status/995003391314083840](https://twitter.com/martinmroz/status/995003391314083840)

I just put in my order!

[edit] also the #couragekey was a really fun project to put together, I think
I'll write it up to commemorate a real escape key coming back.

~~~
williamdclt
You can program your touchbar with something like BetterTouchTool. It's
laughable that Apple ships the touchbar with such useless functionalities, but
you can turn the touchbar into whatever you want, it's an amazing tool. For
example, when I open iTerm I have buttons for my local development env (DB,
redis, api, frontend, various microservices) color-coded by status and can
start/stop them by tapping a button. You could program buttons for your git
workflow, for managing browser tabs, desk spaces... If you can't find a way to
make it more useful than fn keys, that's on you frankly.

All of that only applies if you're a dev, so I definitely agree that the
touchbar was a fuckup from Apple, but it happens that it's massively useful
for me

~~~
monadic2
> You can program your touchbar with something like BetterTouchTool.

I just have no use for a touchbar. After all, I have a screen! I never look at
my keyboard.... it’s all about tactile feedback, which the touchbar
notoriously lacks.

~~~
williamdclt
> I just have no use for a touchbar

I find this very narrow-minded. You can't imagine a single thing that a
programmable tactile interface would bring over keys (that you probably can't
reliably touch-type either, fn keys are far)?

I never looked at my keyboard either. I still don't, I look at my touchbar
from time to time to do things that would take me longer to do if I had to
move a cursor (checking the time, my next calendar event, controlling music
amongst a dozen things)

~~~
monadic2
> I still don't, I look at my touchbar from time to time to do things that
> would take me longer to do if I had to move a cursor (checking the time, my
> next calendar event, controlling music amongst a dozen things)

Moving the mouse doesn't really bother me, and there are a million ways to
wire functionality to keyboard expressions or in-UI functionality. I do miss
my hardware volume, prev track, next track, play/pause functionality exactly
because I could use them easily without shifting focus at all, even to my
keyboard.

OTOH I'm not holding my breath for Apple to meet my needs, they aren't that
kind of company.

------
alexggordon
I was curious how the 13 inch was priced so I compared it to a new Dell XPS
13. Dell has a better processor (maybe, [2]) , but I couldn't find the option
to upgrade the Dell to 4TB internal SSD, so I compared both with the 2 TB
option. Ram is the same at 32GB.

Dell came out to $2399[0] USD and Apple came out to $2999[1] USD.

Dell Pros:

* Row of function buttons (I've used BTT to customize my touch-bar to the point where it's a little bit of a tossup, but years of muscle memory still haunt me)

* Better processor (maybe [2])

* Cheaper

* MicroSD reader

Apple Pros:

* Better Trackpad

* More Ports (Upgraded Dell only has 2 USB-C, while Upgraded MBP has 4)

* Better hardware support

* Better resale value

Objectively, seems to me that list used to be a lot longer on the Apple side.
IMHO I think the Touch Bar disappointment is probably over dramatized by
developers, it's not too bad a couple years in and BTT has made it so I can
run whatever macros I want in any application, so overall tossup in my mind. I
still miss mag-safe adapters though. I still don't understand that decision.

Also, I'm happy with the new Magic Keyboard. I have the 16 inch MBP right now,
and I will say that even though I prefer the travel of the '12-'15 era
keyboards, this typing experience is far superior than the faulty butterfly
keys.

I'm hoping given how they've walked the keyboard back, and how the new Mac Pro
is actually a Pro machine that they're headed back in the right direction
(post Jony Ive). A $600 price difference for this machine is probably worth it
in my mind, just given my experience with resale value, longevity and lack of
competitors, but there's a lot of room improvement.

[0] [https://imgur.com/a/p6RA9HF](https://imgur.com/a/p6RA9HF)

[1] [https://imgur.com/a/f6ii7h9](https://imgur.com/a/f6ii7h9)

[2]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23067768](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23067768)

~~~
tw04
After several years I can unequivocally say I still hate the touch bar. I love
touch ID, but the bar needs to go.

USB-C was all about standardizing. I'm still not sure how I feel about it, I
did love magsafe, but I also love that in theory someday I'll have one cable
to rule them all. And I'll be able to charge my headphones/laptop/phone/random
device with a usb-c cable instead of needing 8 of them.

~~~
cHaOs667
I HATE the touch bar.

I simply H A T E it.

I hate it so much that I started to carry an TKL keyboard all the time with me
just to avoid using this piece of sh*t touch bar and internal keyboard (MBP
2017).

As a developer it is crucial that I can use my keyboard without any looks but
as there is no way to tell which function key you press on the touch bar the
bar itself is completely useless for me.

Beside the butterfly switches one of the worst things Apple has ever
introduced to their computers.

~~~
RedneckBob
I just purged Apple from my life largely because the touchbar continues to
live on. Love my new Lenovo, btw.

As a workaround for the touchbar that worked pretty well, I bought a silicon
keyboard protector for the Apple Magic Keyboard, cut out the area for the
function keys, and used hot glue to glue it over the touch bar.

Prevented the touchbar from activating at the slightest touch and did return
some of the feel of actually having a row of keys.

Plus, the hot glue causes no damage to the aluminum and does hold for a good
period of time.

Turn this into a product people could purchase and you'd become rich :)

~~~
DonHopkins
The original Apple ][ had a reset key in the upper right corner of the
keyboard that was WAAAAAY too easy to press.

[https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e3/1b/53/e31b53767fad646fc635...](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e3/1b/53/e31b53767fad646fc635271d1192fe13.jpg)

They eventually put a stronger spring under it so it was harder to press, but
it was still terrible. There was actually a thriving after-market for $3.25
"RESET KEY PROTECTORS": square plastic tube shields that fit over the reset
key so you had to stick your finger down inside of it to press reset.

[https://apple2history.org/history/ah13/](https://apple2history.org/history/ah13/)

RESET KEY PROTECTOR, which prevented accidental RESET on the earliest models
of the Apple II, was available for only $3.25 from Special Systems Design.
This was necessary because the RESET key, on the upper right of the keyboard,
was easy to press because it had the same spring action as the other keys on
the keyboard. Various methods (like this product) were used to stiffen that
key, and make it harder to press.

[https://imgur.com/a/jGpcT4Z](https://imgur.com/a/jGpcT4Z)

Special Systems Design ad for Apple ][ Reset Key Protector, from Apple Orchard
v1n1 1980 Mar Apr, page 107.

[https://archive.org/details/Apple-Orchard-v1n1-1980-Mar-
Apr/...](https://archive.org/details/Apple-Orchard-v1n1-1980-Mar-
Apr/page/n107/mode/2up)

~~~
js2
I swear on my Apple ][ (which had the stiffer spring under reset) you had to
press ctrl at the same time. Mine had an after-marked Videx keyboard
controller though, and maybe that was a feature of that controller?

edit: indeed, yes it was:

[https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_a...](https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_and_Operation_Manual/page/n57/mode/2up)

I forgot how amazing this controller was:

[https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_a...](https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_and_Operation_Manual/page/n13/mode/2up)

It had macros:

[https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_a...](https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_and_Operation_Manual/page/n63/mode/2up)

~~~
vkoskiv
There is a switch on the keyboard interface card inside the ][+ that allows
you to toggle between requiring CTRL be held down, or just pushing the reset
key. I would assume that this was added later, and wasn't available on the
earlier models.

------
hidiegomariani
I've a macbook pro 13' 2017 - It's the worst laptop I've used in the past 10
years. It continuously gets smoking hot lot of fan noise and very often kernel
panics. I have lost faith in apple macbook especially when price to hardware
ratio is higher than anyone else in the industry I expect the machine to just
work seamlessly. I'm very soon disposing the laptop and buy a dell or a
thinkpad. I'm not looking at apple again for a very long time at least for
macbooks

~~~
whywhywhywhy
I have same model at work and even ignoring the keyboard the thing has been
awful to use. The two ports are a complete nightmare making you have to juggle
between power/screen and reliable storage (Tried 5 dongles, none can hold a
drive reliably under heavy use).

Kernel Panics on waking from sleep almost every day, bluetooth chip crashes
and requires restarts to get working again.

Not to mention the disgustingly low storage in the base model that my company
thinks is fine makes the thing almost unusable for any semblance of
"Professional" work other than being a journalist.

The design doesn't even feel modern and the bezels are janky compared to whats
normal now on the windows side. I understand the new model fixes some of this,
but they still thought this thing was absolutely fine to ship for several
years now speaks volumes to me.

~~~
akudha
I don't understand why Apple doesn't give more ports. They removed the
headphone jack in their phones, everyone else copied them (Samsung after
making fun of it for a while). Apple makes repairing their machines hard by
soldiering everything, others follow.

I hope other manufacturers don't start removing ports just because Apple does.
Really annoying - why not just copy the good stuff from Apple, instead of
their arrogant choices...

~~~
artursapek
They already are. My father in law's Microsoft Surface has one fucking USB
port.

------
Tepix
Funny anecdote: Apple offers a trade-in when buying a new Macbook. I decided
to have a look.

I entered the serial number of my Macbook Air 11" (Late 2010). I confirmed
that it boots up, has no defects, has no optical faults and that I will
include the power supply.

Apple offered 10€ ($12).

Yay?!

PS: This ancient notebook runs macOS High Sierra with the current 2020-2
security patch and sells for an astonishing 200€ on eBay.

~~~
jmull
It probably actually costs them money, when all is done, to take that machine
and get rid of it in a reasonably responsible way.

~~~
AdamCraven
Perhaps, but it reduces the size of the secondary market so consumers have
less choice and may opt for a new one instead. This is the real advantage to
Apple.

~~~
reaperducer
Is there a secondary market for a ten-year-old MacBook Air?

I use a nine-year-old Air almost daily, but I don't think the vast majority of
people would consider it viable, let alone pay for one.

~~~
lukifer
The silver lining of the "Apple Tax" is that machines retain value for an
absurdly long time, even those which are verging on "obsolete".

------
AnonC
It looks like the frustrations just add up when you look at different factors.

In this lineup, the first two models are the 8th generation processors whereas
the top model (starting at $1799) is the one with the latest 10th generation
processors (but that still comes with a stingy 512GB SSD).

Another thing is that SSD storage on Apple Macs is expensive, and they can no
longer be upgraded after purchase (since they have the T2 chip and are
soldered on to the logic board). This would be kinda ok to put up with just
for the combination of hardware and software, but poorly designed software
makes the experience worse. Photos and videos take up a lot of space, and
Apple's default app, Photos really sucks. You can't move the photos library to
an external (cheaper hard) drive and live peacefully. If you do, then you
might find yourself unable to eject said drive because there are background
processes that launch themselves and keep your photos library in use even if
nothing has changed and even when you've let them run for a day or a few days
before to finish). Apple seems to be doing a terrible job on the software
front (I don't even want to talk about other issues in Catalina). Is there any
other alternative for photos on Mac that works well and can also import photos
and videos from iOS devices (on to an external drive)?

~~~
mceachen
I've tested Resilio Sync on my iOS devices and SyncThing on my Android devices
to get my photos and videos to my home NAS. PhotoStructure (running in a
docker image, but there are other ways to install it) then imports the new
files and shows them in my library.

(Disclaimer: I'm the author of PhotoStructure, details in my profile)

Correction from the original post: I've tested Resilio on iOS and Android.
SyncThing doesn't have an iOS port.

~~~
teejmya
How are you running Syncthing on iOS?

~~~
mceachen
You're correct, I've only tested it on Android. I edited the post to clarify.

------
Karupan
A little disappointed it’s not the rumoured 14” model as I’ve been looking to
replace both my 15” and 13” MacBooks.

Also, regarding other comments on “just” the 4 core CPU - it’s probably all
they could squeeze in without having to redesign the chassis/thermal design.
I’m going to hold off for a tear down to see if they have improved the cooling
system like they did (Or claimed to) with the 16” version.

~~~
Eric_WVGG
I’ve always found the 13” Pros to be the “worst of both worlds” compromise.
You don’t get the svelte lightness of the Air, or the generous desktop or raw
power of the big boy. Whatever your priority is, it’s just not there. A 14”
screen would have at least differentiated the product.

I think a lot of these are bought by corporate bean counters and people who
assume that Airs must be awful if they’re the most affordable.

(Yes, I’ve used them, my current “burner” is a ‘17 escape key model)

~~~
vzidex
Having used a '15 (I think) 13" Pro for two internships, I actually found it
met my needs really well. I personally can't stand any 14"\+ laptop, so the
13" Pro hit a great spot for me of being:

* Svelte enough to watch Netflix in bed with or throw in my bag to take on a commute

* Powerful enough that I never had major performance issues when plugged in at my desk at work, driving an external monitor

I look back on that machine and those internships fondly, and I could see
myself going for a 13" MBP (or 14", if they ever release it) when I next need
to upgrade my laptop - after I finish undergrad :)

~~~
Eric_WVGG
right, but have you used the Air? It's much nicer for similar performance.

~~~
hombre_fatal
I have owned two Airs. Macbook Pros are so thin and light these days that I
don't understand what Air brings to the table anymore. I mean, a 13" Macbook
Pro is 3 lbs.

Ideally Macbook Pros would be thicker and heavier for better thermals and
performance, and then Airs would have a purpose again.

------
tolmasky
I decided to switch back to the (new) MacBook Air instead. I feel that had the
butterfly fiasco never happened, this generation of laptops may have just
dumped the Touch Bar entirely, but instead, there were so many general
keyboard complaints (escape key specifically, general Touch Bar complaints,
and of course the butterfly keyboard complaints), that it is reasonable that
they are trying to see if this new "reduced" Touch Bar will stick, but it's
just not for me. I feel that the fact that the Touch Bar has not made its way
into any other keyboard (desktop keyboards or even iPad keyboards), is
somewhat of an admission that it's not that crucial.

It's a really weird feeling, because on the Air the keyboard has once again
returned to just being something I don't think about. I'm not ecstatic or
something. Just overnight I stopped getting infuriated at my machine and
feeling like a complete idiot when I'd see an email where I sent "butt"
instead of "but" due to repeated keys. But it's like fixing a dead pixel, my
experience is not amazing now, it's just not an issue anymore.

The problem I've always had with the Touch Bar is that I'd lightly brush some
random button and all of sudden I would have triggered some action. When I
first got a Touch Bar MacBook Pro, I could swear we had some weird state-
resetting bug in our website. Turned out, I would just every so often
accidentally hit the refresh button on the Touch Bar. Do "normal people" _ever
refresh_ a website? I feel that refresh has basically become a pro-level
feature now for development. Anyways, I ended up just manually removing just
about every button from the Touch Bar.

So, back to where we were 3 years ago as far as I'm concerned (on the Air).

~~~
dreamcompiler
The Touch Bar feels to me like a stopgap measure from Apple because they don't
yet have touch-sensitive screens on their laptops. Eventually Apple will have
to put touch-sensitive screens on their laptops -- just like everybody else
does -- and on that day the Touch Bar will be history.

I know Apple doesn't think touch-sensitive screens on laptops are a good idea.
I would have agreed with them 5 years ago. But every time I have to show my
MBP screen to a colleague who's not an Apple user, they try to scroll the
window by touching the screen with their finger. _Every time_. Apple is out of
step with the world on this issue.

~~~
hittaruki
I dont think that is a good enough reason to add touch screen. Do you have a
better reason for adding one?

One of the reasons for me to keep using a Mac has been not having a touch
screen. It has become very difficult to find non-Mac laptops without a touch
screen now. I for one hope they never add it.

~~~
dreamcompiler
Personally I don't care. I already have a Dell XPS running Ubuntu and I never
use the touch screen even though it has one. I just think the non-hacker
marketplace has come to expect all screens to be touchable.

------
rconti
Very interesting. I had assumed I'd buy a 13" Pro as a personal laptop
replacement for my 2011 Air when they updated the keyboard.

However, when the 2020 Air dropped, I snapped one up because it ticked all the
boxes, and I really don't need the "power" of the Pro, especially given its
presumed expense.

I bought a loaded Air with 512gb which was I think $1650.

Speccing out the Pro, the pricepoint for a similar machine is actually $1600;
$50 _cheaper_.

Air is 1.2ghz quad core i7 10th gen / 16gb 3733mhz memory / 512gb

Pro is 1.4ghz quad core i5 8th gen / 16gb 2133mhz memory / 512gb.

In the Pro, you also get the touch bar (for better or for worse; I kind of
like it, but no big deal). But its' also a heavier, thicker machine.

Also, that Pro is limited in the same way my Air is -- only 2 ports.

So I suspect it's kind of a wash. I bet we'll start seeing benchmarks soon
comparing these 2 machines. I haven't dug into bus speed or cache amounts, but
it's interesting how much faster the RAM on the Air is; I'm guessing slower
bus speed but a higher multiple or something?

For my (home) use case, it really doesn't much matter, I just figured an
'acceptable' Pro would be $1800+, and figured the Air would be more in the
$1400 range. FWIW I only really paid for the $150 CPU upgrade on the Air to
get it a couple weeks sooner, I'm sure the 1.1ghz quad core i5 was the sweet
spot in the lineup for price/performance.

~~~
RussianCow
> it's interesting how much faster the RAM on the Air is

Isn't that just the difference between DDR4 and DDR3?

Edit: Yes, I just confirmed that the last generation of MacBook Pros used DDR3
memory, whereas these new ones will use DDR4, so that's why there is such a
big difference in speed. The new ones run at 3733MHz.

~~~
rconti
Ah. Looks like the store's "upgrade" button hasn't been updated to reflect the
actual RAM speed. Or wasn't when i looked.

------
shawndellysse
So glad they finally got rid of the butterfly keyboard! That said, I cannot
wait until they retire the Touch Bar.

~~~
dubcanada
What's your problem with the touch bar? My biggest was the lack of esc key,
but they adjusted that.

I actually really like the touch bar. I don't use it very often, but I never
used function keys.

~~~
whywhywhywhy
Can't change the laptop volume with your eyes closed, I use my MBP to listen
to podcasts in bed sometimes so like to alter the volume just by knowing where
the keys are, not having to sit up and fumble with some touch screen widget.

~~~
mthoms
FWIW, I have BetterTouchTool configured so that a two finger swipe/scroll
anywhere on the bar adjusts volume and a three finger one adjusts brightness.

------
surfsvammel
Please Apple, let me choose one without touchbar. I have had a touchbar for
over a year now and still haven’t figured out any use for it.

Edit: spelling

~~~
pcshah1996
Something that I've found useful is [https://pock.dev/](https://pock.dev/) .
It lets the touchbar replace the on-screen dock

~~~
DenisM
I think this might deserve its own submission.

~~~
sixstringtheory
It was submitted here [0]. Let the MBP bikeshedding continue... ;)

[0]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229123](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229123)

------
bnt
What I find irritating is the fact that you have to get the 2ghz CPU in order
to be able to get 32gb RAM. It feels like artificial price inflation because
the refresh is definitely not as exciting as people had hoped (no 14" micro
LED screen, like every single "leak" suggested).

Also, the base CPU is an 8th gen chip, you need to fork out a lot of extra $$$
to get to 10th gen.

~~~
AgloeDreams
32Gb of ram requires DDR4 which in this case, requires 10th gen chips.

Reading through this, I can't help but think this feels like Apple's 2.5Ghz
PowerMac G5 all over again, back in like 2004.

Back then, they promised a 3Ghz G5 CPU in under a year and IBM just couldn't
do it. Apple even noted it as why they were switching to Intel at the time.
They couldn't keep promises and it seemingly pissed Steve off to the point of
basically trashing them on stage.

This order sheet only makes sense if you think: 'What would they do if Apple
couldn't get enough 10th gen parts and they showed up late?'

Obviously they would skew them to the high end models as they move mostly
lower spec models. That way your product line still offers the fastest Intel
hardware. But it makes for a messy nonsensical spec sheet that confuses
customers.

When should I get the 8th Gen i7 that Turbos to 4.5Ghz but then when should I
get the 10th Gen i7 that Turbos to 4.1Ghz?

You know what floored me?

This press release: [https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/05/apple-
updates-13-inch...](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/05/apple-
updates-13-inch-macbook-pro-with-magic-keyboard-double-the-storage-and-faster-
performance/)

It seems to not mention 'Intel' until nearly half way through and exclusively
uses it as a technical descriptor twice. (not `Intel's newest processors`, but
instead the `10th Generation Intel Core' and 'Intel Iris Plus') The first
reference to the CPU just calls them '10th gen processors'. It's like watching
a person refer to an ex. This is the first Macbook Pro with a 10nm
processor...why don't they say that?

This mess of product line just isn't Apple-like...And I think it has them
pissed.

~~~
mpweiher
> why they were switching to Intel at the time. They couldn't keep promises

Makes the switch to their own ARM chips even more plausible.

------
shrimpx
I’ve been dreaming of a 32G 13” for years but now that it’s here I wish it
were 64G. This for me sums up the problem with the 13” offering. Attractive
form factor (for me), always 2-4 years behind on specs.

Apple apparently thinks that smaller form factor means the audience is “junior
pro” or something. People who want smaller laptops are probably also running
proportionally smaller workloads, thinks Apple. It makes zero sense to me.

~~~
troyk
co-dreamer here, do you have a recommendation for a 64G 13"?

~~~
akudha
Same, I'd like to get a 64G 13" too. system76 has galago, but it is 14"

------
starbugs
Sitting in front of my beloved 2013 MBP 15". Reading "the new inverted
T-arrangement for arrow keys". Looking down at my keyboard. Seeing said
inverted T-arrangement on my seven year old MBP.

Deception and lies.

~~~
kristianp
I was struck by that too. How can they say it's a new inverted-T?

------
uyuioi
The problem with the touchbar is that you cannot build muscle memory with it.
You have to look down to do anything with it. That goes against the entire UX
of a keyboard. How Apple hasn’t understood that basic fact yet is beyond me.
This new MacBook is nothing special. A Ryzen 4000HS surface is more attractive
now. The cheaper CPU Ryzen has 8 cores and is faster than the current 16” 6
core i7. Time to get rid of Intel and it’s over heating 14nm CPU’s.

~~~
sedatk
Not only that, my fingers also occasionally hover over touchbar and create
accidental touches constantly creating chaos. I actually got cold feet of
using my Mac because of that and sticking to my PC most of the time.

------
ly
Interesting to see they upgraded the RAM, but still kept it LPDDR3, even
though all other Macs have DDR4 (except for the MacBook Air, which as
LPDDR4X). At this price point I would honestly expect DDR4 in a "Pro" machine.

~~~
solarkraft
Wait, what? Hasn't DDR3 been phased out nearly everywhere about 5 years ago?

~~~
ashtonkem
LP = low power. It gives Apple laptops incredible sleep times, and Apple will
take LPDDR3 over DDR4 given that choice.

~~~
jfkebwjsbx
LPDDR4 (X) is a thing...

~~~
ashtonkem
IIRC there was some problem with LPDDR4 having issues with sleeping power
consumption that slowed Apple’s adoption of it.

~~~
danieldk
That is DDR4 (no LP). MacBook Air 2020, MacBook Pro 16", and the most
expensive MacBook Pro 13" configuration use LPDDR4.

~~~
ashtonkem
I wish I could find the old HN comment I’m thinking of; there was some
combination of memory size, board compatibility, chipset and ram that slowed
Apple from moving from LPDDR3 to LPDDR4. Such restrictions might still apply
to the older chips used in their non-flagship machines.

That is, if I could remember the specific details.

~~~
fomine3
Intel CPUs don't support LPDDR4(X) until Ice Lake. So previous MacBooks stuck
at LPDDR3 (then max capacity is limited to 16GB) or go to DDR4(more max
capacity but more power consumption).

------
thathndude
Disappointed we didn't see a 14" in a 13.3" body, or anything otherwise
exciting here.

I for one prefer the butterfly keyboard. So the magic keyboard is at best a
neutral move (I think a downgrade). For those folks who loathe the butterfly,
I'm sure they'll be delighted at a 13" with the new magic keyboard. For me, it
looks like the 2018 will continue to be on my desk. Happy that I maxed it at
time of purchase.

Maybe an ARM Macbook in 2021 is in my future.

~~~
neuronic
Probably have hard-coded screen paint calculations for typical macOS and a
need for massive multi-year refactor to allow non-typical screen sizes (e.g.
1cm more when removing the bezels on 13").

Semi-sarcasm.

------
tosh
When you consider that Apple had a 12” Macbook (w/ Retina Display) in the
lineup 5 years ago the current lineup is a bit disappointing.

Also the distinction between the Air and the 13” Macbook is not clear.

That said: this is a decent update for a decent laptop and I’m looking forward
to what is to come. The rumors re 14” form factor and ARM based Macbooks do
sound intriguing.

In the meantime I think the recommendation re when to buy a new Mac is as it
always has been: when you need one. Don’t wait for a specific update or rumor,
otherwise you might have to wait for years in some cases :)

------
dzonga
I don't know why people in this thread, keep comparing macbooks to dell xps.
they're not equivalent. Thinkpad's X & T series are probably the only machines
hardware wise that compare to macbook from durability and working out of the
box with Linux. a t490 released last year, has better specs than the new 13"
macbook. And I will applaud apple for bringing back a saner keyboard n eSC
key.

------
nachteilig
Anyone have any insight into why they might not have included "Wi-Fi 6" aka
802.11ax? I was under the impression that it's current get now even if there's
not a lot of support yet.

Are we still lacking good chipsets with support?

------
brookside
Is the headphone jack still on the right? (Rhetorical question.)

Still an insane choice as headphones have their wires on the left ear so when
on my work macbook i have a wire either under or over my wrists. (Or behind
the display, which shortens cable length significantly and pulls a sharp angle
which will ruin my Sony MDR 7506 soon enough.

~~~
lukifer
I'm grateful we still have the headphone jack at all.

------
freediver
The press release lost me at 'physical escape key'. I remember I had the same
feeling seeing the ads for iPhone 3g with 'copy/paste'. Not many companies in
the world can get away with advertising a technology that existed for decades
as top product features in current lineup.

Back to Mac laptops, hardware is really not that exciting. It feels as the one
major thing Apple has over the competition is macOS. So the combination of
hardware and software is still the best one on the market (like IBM P series
laptops were in the decade before Lenovo took over).

------
jadamczyk
Good that they went for more less the same setup as in 16 inch model. The
escape key and old keyboard switches really do make the difference for me.

~~~
jadamczyk
But the size of the 16 inch is huge compared to 13 inch. Not too comfy to hold
it on my lap when travelling by train. Finally there's an option.

~~~
rbanffy
Also, you can't really open the 16" during a flight in economy class.

Not that we are flying anytime soon. Could as well get an iMac...

------
pr0duktiv
Really glad I bought this year's MacBook Air instead of waiting for this.
Seems like a much better deal to me

~~~
m12k
Are you coding on it? I'm a bit worried about the thermals, and whether I
would get fan noise when I'm compiling or running my 3 minute test suite.

~~~
SnowflakeOnIce
I’ll tell you a little secret: when compiling or running multi-minute test
suites, or sometimes even just being in a videochat, the fans rev up, and
sound like a weak hair dryer, even on the 16” MBP (which is what I currently
use).

The thermals on Apple laptops from the last several years don’t seem to be
designed to work without frequently revving the fans way up.

~~~
m12k
Ugh, I was afraid of that. I've been clinging to my 2013 MBP, waiting for an
upgrade with a bearable keyboard, and then when the 2020 MBA came along I
thought I might have the ideal machine, but then I started hearing about the
thermals. Was hoping the new 13 inch MBP might fit the bill instead, but it
sounds like the thermals are just kinda crappy these days.

------
jdlyga
Does this use the 2020 redesigned keyboard with longer travel? That's
literally the only thing I care about that they can potentially change.

~~~
AgharaShyam
Yes

------
rukittenme
I recently bought the 2020 Macbook Air after breaking my 2017 (18?) Macbook
Pro. No touch bar, new "magic" keyboard.

Keyboard is great. I think I still prefer the chiclet keys but these are close
enough. Function row is far superior to the touch bar. The touch ID button is
great too. Makes using 1password much more convenient.

Small battery (which means fast charge times) and long battery life are huge
for me. I've got 8 1/2 hours remaining on 91% after >1 hour of usage.

I unfortunately haven't done any local development on the machine. I ssh into
a linux machine on the network. But I don't think the fans ever spin up. And
it never feels hot to the touch.

I spent two weeks doing remote dev work with a 2012 Macbook Air and another
week doing remote dev work with the 2020 Macbook Air. Since processing power
was irrelevant my experience between the two was mixed. The 2020 Air has a
better trackpad and screen. But the 2012 Air has the better keyboard. I could
have used the 2012 for the rest of my life had it had a better screen.

Anyway... just some thoughts for anyone looking for a new macbook.

------
cpearce
Dear Apple... I will pay $200 extra for the option of a keyboard with physical
function keys and no touchbar.

Sincerely, Disappointed Customer.

------
idlewords
Bragging about a "dedicated escape key", T-shaped arrow pad and better
keyboard in the marketing materials for this thing is the very definition of
chutzpah.

~~~
simonh
Now without missing an Escape key!

------
curiousgal
Another year, another laughable release with the same BS language trying to
dazzle "Pro" wanna-be's. There is nothing Pro about these machines.

~~~
sturza
if 32 GB is not “pro”, i don’t know if we have the same understanding about
what “pro” means

~~~
SparkleBunny
I have 64GB in my Thinkpad P71. I got it ~2 years ago. Why so much ram? I make
money with this beast. How's your Starbucks?

~~~
pb7
I bet I make at least twice the money with half the RAM. ;)

Weird thing to belittle someone over there man.

~~~
sturza
you basically did the same thing with your comment

~~~
pb7
I'm just speaking his language to deflate his ego a little bit by showing him
that his point that RAM = money has no basis in reality.

~~~
SparkleBunny
I was making fun of the fact that he thought 32 was pro. I slam into the 64gb
limit on my laptop daily.

~~~
pb7
I think that's egotistical gatekeeping. There's no basis for 64GB being "pro"
and 32GB not (or even 16GB or 8GB, for that matter). You can make millions of
dollars on an MacBook Air with 8GB of RAM. Your use case does not dictate what
is a reasonable amount for other professionals.

------
gnicholas
$1800 if you want more than 2 ports (one of which is for charging). Between
this and the Touch Bar, I’ll probably get an MBA instead to replace my 2017
Pro.

~~~
pier25
If you don't mind fan noise that is. The 2020 Air has shit cooling.

~~~
gnicholas
Ugh, good to know. You have one?

~~~
pier25
I wanted one because on paper it looked great for my needs.

But it turns out the CPU has passive cooling and the case fan needs to work
very hard to keep it cool. At least the i5 model which is the one I was
considering. I don't know about the i3.

~~~
gnicholas
Do you know where to find out more about this? I like that the fan practically
never spins up on my 2017 MBP, but of course the keyboard is garbage. I'm not
a dev so perhaps I could get by with a lesser processor, but I wouldn't want
to go to the trouble of swapping to get something that is actually slower than
my current machine.

~~~
pier25
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSgi2deRivc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSgi2deRivc)

> _At around 30% CPU load (installation of OS updates), the fan is clearly
> audible and we are already above 40 dB(A), which is hard to understand
> considering the low performance level._

[https://www.notebookcheck.net/The-new-2020-MacBook-Air-
Core-...](https://www.notebookcheck.net/The-new-2020-MacBook-Air-Core-i5-has-
arrived-Faster-CPU-but-still-way-too-loud.459603.0.html)

------
insulanian
I was so looking forward to the rumored 14-inch MBP, in which case I would
have upgraded my MBP Retina, 13-inch, Early 2015.

Also, having no option for a keyboard with function keys on any MBP model
anymore is just disappointing. Why are they so stubborn with that touchbar?!

~~~
mojo982
If you’re living with a 2015 13” Pro the MacBook Air is a huge upgrade if you
opt for 16 RAM and the quad core CPU. I just upgraded and it can handle
anything I throw at it (.NET Core, Angular, Docker, JetBrains IDEs)

~~~
insulanian
i5 or i7? How is the temperature? There are reports that Air has issues with
overheating.

------
FillardMillmore
What's the real value in paying more for this compared to getting a new
MacBook Air?

~~~
vehemenz
The big thing is thermal design. In the new MBA, a moderate load spins up the
fans really loud, whereas in the MBPs, it takes a pegged CPU/GPU to even turn
the fans on.

Honorable mention: better screen in terms of colors and brightness. Probably a
faster SSD. More TB3 ports.

~~~
climb_stealth
I'd love to see this tested with the new MBP. My 2015 13" MBP behaves as you
describe, you pretty much never hear the fan unless you are pegging the CPU.
But on my 2018 13" MBP the slightest load will get the fan going and it's
terrible.

------
DSingularity
My new 16 inch crashes once every 48-72 hours. Been pretty upset with it so
far.

~~~
dziulius
Mine did too occasionally also had other issues (like random wakes and not
returning to sleep), but the upgrade to 15.4 fixed everything.

------
trhaynes
The escape button escaped from the touchbar!

------
trboyden
$2k for an i5? No thanks. I can max out a HP Spectre x360 with an i7, 16GB, 4K
OLED touchscreen, and 2TB NVMe and come in under $1900. Plus its lighter, has
better battery life, better cameras, and a better keyboard. Get it with just
the 256GB NVMe, and I can pare that down to $1570.

[https://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/spectre-x360-211501--
1](https://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/spectre-x360-211501--1)

~~~
rooam-dev
But can it run MacOS? :)

~~~
milkytron
It probably can, although some tinkering is involved.

[https://www.tonymacx86.com/threads/guide-high-sierra-on-
hp-s...](https://www.tonymacx86.com/threads/guide-high-sierra-on-hp-
spectre-x360-8th-gen-coffee-lake.251330/)

[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xznw4/how-to-make-a-
hack...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xznw4/how-to-make-a-hackintosh-
laptop)

But yeah... not easily enough that many consumers would consider doing it over
directly buying a mac.

~~~
rooam-dev
There is a legal aspect too. How long Apple will allow/tolerate this?

~~~
milkytron
I don't think they allow it necessarily. They have explicit licensing terms
which say that MacOS can only be installed and used on Apple hardware.

How long they tolerate it is another question, and I don't think anyone knows
for sure. But if hackintoshing becomes easier (imagine a one click installer
on a Dell/HP/ASUS PC), I'd imagine they'd start pursuing people.

I think there was also an individual/company that would build PCs, install
MacOS, and sell them for a profit. IIRC, they were shut down.

------
fluffything
What about the quality of the webcam?

I need to do a lot of video conferencing nowadays, and the macbook air 2020
webcam is worse than the rear facing camera of a Nokia 3210.

~~~
Saaster
It's still the exact same potato-cam in every model, from the Air to the $$$
MacBook Pro "16.

~~~
fluffything
How do people WFH with their new $$$ macbooks ? Is there any external cam you
would recommend ?

~~~
dddddaviddddd
I use a Pixel 3a (rear camera) connected over USB + Droidcam as my webcam.

~~~
AdamGibbins
Droidcam doesn't exist for MacOS?

------
xchaotic
It’s not easy to iterate in hardware and even harder to go back on a failed
design. but agreed that Touch Bar needs to be revisited somehow.

------
eanzenberg
I recently got an 11" ipad pro with the new keyboard/touchpad. After using it
for some time, I don't think I'll have a need for a personal mpb anymore. I
have a tower with windows/linux and a 1080ti for heavy lifting when needed.
There's just a freeing feeling to getting a device with a small form factor
that can be just a screen if needed.

~~~
sixstringtheory
I'm in a similar boat, really enjoy using my older iPad pro. I'm more
interested in a desktop for a daily driver that I can also remote into from
the iPad. Still need Apple hardware because of my work. The 5K retina iMacs
are awfully tempting.

~~~
eanzenberg
That would be a similar workstation that I have, just as a iMac instead of a
tower. For portability, ease, and ability to switch between a "dock" mode and
a tablet mode I'm all-in with the ipad now.

------
sibane
If they were serious about speed, they'd have something to show regarding how
well they can manage core temperatures.

------
mrzool
So, no model with physical F-keys available anymore… touchbar only.

~~~
tachion
MacBook Air still has the physical F keys.

~~~
pier25
But shit cooling

------
missosoup
Is it just me or is Apple starting to fall woefully behind non-mac hardware
competitors in both price and perf?

I used to look forward to these announcements, now it's just 'we upgraded to a
+1 generation config (still 1-2 generations behind what others are doing),
that'll be 2000 bucks thanks'. Advertising 4 cores and 2018 Iris graphics as
if it's some kind of achievement, when competitors have full dGpu solutions
and 6 cores in same sized chassis at the same price bracket. They're taking a
bit of a piss at this point.

~~~
tsar9x
Well, competitors are still behind Apple. They offer worse touchpad, worse
screens (it's either 16:9 or weird resolution), no macOS, worse speakers,
worse microphone, worse battery.

~~~
nickcox
No sure that no macOS makes competitors objectively worse.

~~~
tachion
Laugh as much as you want but to me (and many others) it actually is. I would
look at other manufacturers for their hardware, but sadly it's all non-MacOs
and I value this operating system above anything else for my needs (work and
personal).

~~~
Lammy
Nobody has to be laughing at anyone else, just saying that other platforms and
ecosystems are also viable.

~~~
tachion
Except they aren't. I need a top class desktop operating system with top class
unix environment support and tools. Windows10 might be getting close to a top
class desktop os, but sadly WSL is years behind and simply feels like forced
afterthought. Linux fills the unix env/tools box, but doesn't even gets close
to desktop operating system quality bar of MacOS.

~~~
jfkebwjsbx
macOS is definitely not a top class UNIX environment, not even by a long shot.
It is an alien hybrid of outdated BSD tools and toolchains. Even Xcode, which
was amazing a decade ago, is now a joke compared to other environments and
specialized tools nowadays.

Since Jobs died, the company has slowly allowed their development-focused
machines and toolset to rot. The company now only caters to artists and it
shows with their "Pro" offerings, including the Mac Pro.

As for the desktop features, all 3 major operating systems are the same.
Claiming otherwise is not knowing how to use each of them.

~~~
jki275
I'm not sure if you're claiming that Linux is a "major _desktop_ operating
system" (desktop added for clarity based on the context of your statement),
but if you are your statement is badly misinformed.

I use Linux in (many) VMs where I have to in order to run esoteric toolchains
for embedded stuff. There is no distribution of Linux that provides
bulletproof basic desktop usability anywhere near the level of OS X or Windows
10. Nothing even in the same ballpark. And I've used Linux since the days when
Slackware came on a set of 3.5" floppies, so I'm not some Linux hater or
incompetent here -- I've got a significant amount of experience with the OS in
many of its flavors. When you can get any distribution of Linux to accurately
handle plugging in external monitors every time, maybe we can talk.

Xcode is an excellent IDE - it's second really only to Visual Studio.

My only complaint about Macs today is the Touch Bar, because they replaced my
f-keys with it and it's useless to me as a developer. That's at least
partially mitigated by my das keyboard.

Nearly every other dev I know uses a MacBook Pro. The Mac Pro is a production
machine for movies, it's not really part of the discussion here.

~~~
jfkebwjsbx
Of course I am claiming Linux is a major operating system. It is the most
widely deployed operating system in the world, after all.

For _desktop_ in bare metal, Linux is extremely bad, yes, but most people use
it as a desktop in a VM within another host OS.

Xcode is an excellent IDE... if you don't know better or are into iOS/Swift
development (due to legal reasons).

I know nobody that uses a MacBook Pro in my field. I know it is common in
webdev and specially mobile dev fields, though, so I give you that.

~~~
jki275
It's not a major operating system outside of server use.

Your claim was this:

"As for the desktop features, all 3 major operating systems are the same.
Claiming otherwise is not knowing how to use each of them." \-- that's a
demonstrably false statement, which you're apparently trying to walk back now
by claiming server installations are the same as desktop use. Linux has
essentially zero desktop market share, because it's a very poor desktop OS,
and is in no way comparable to either of the leading desktop operating
systems, which was your claim. And no one I know uses Linux as a _desktop_
inside another OS. Plenty of people use an ssh session into a Linux machine to
compile things, but that's not using it as a desktop. Very few people would
want to use an OS in a VM as their main desktop, especially since that doesn't
even resolve the issues that make it a terrible desktop OS!

I'm using Xcode on a MacBook Pro to do C++ development for an embedded system
right now. I've used it to write C applications in the past. I don't do webdev
ever and generally don't do mobile. Nearly everyone in my field uses a MacBook
Pro, for everything from firmware development up. The webdev kids seem to be
the the Linux zealots from what I've seen.

~~~
jfkebwjsbx
> It's not a major operating system outside of server use.

You are forgetting Android, embedded, web servers, networking equipment of all
kinds, HPC and supercomputing, HFT, automotive, aerospace and many other
fields.

Linux is, _by far_ , the operating system with the most deployed systems out
there.

> that's a demonstrably false statement, which you're apparently trying to
> walk back now by claiming server installations are the same as desktop use

I am not backing from anything, and I have not claimed anything about servers
so far until _this_ post.

Linux is the third desktop operating system, whether you like it or not. At
home, in fact, it is not that far from macOS (4%), Linux (1%).

Given you talk about "demonstrable" things, I refer you to surveys like
Steam's.

At work, Windows is even more prevalent, and those surveys do not include VM
(work/non-gaming) usage where most people I know use it.

> Nearly everyone in my field uses a MacBook Pro, for everything from firmware
> development up

Perhaps you are in the US, where Apple has a disproportionate market share (up
to 30% IIRC) compared to anywhere else in the world. I also work on embedded
and no one uses a Mac here, nor Xcode. A ThinkPad or a Dell with a Linux VM is
the proper choice. Xcode for firmware development sounds very odd, too.

~~~
jki275
The entire context of the discussion was desktop operating systems, not
embedded devices. Aerospace doesn't run Linux on anything I've ever even heard
of, that would be foolhardy to the extreme. They're running things like QNX
and different variants of real time operating systems. Automotive does run it
on non-critical things, but even that is pretty silly. Most critical systems
on vehicles do not run Linux either. Most networking gear doesn't run Linux --
some consumer things do, but many run some form of BSD or some proprietary
OS(ios).

Android is barely Linux (and if you want to add mobile phones into the
discussion you'd have to realize that iOS is actually the same thing as OS
X..), and the rest aren't desktop operating systems at all -- and many of them
don't run Linux either.

But again, the context, and your comment, was about the desktop. Linux isn't
there.

You call Linux the "third" desktop operating system by default because its
desktop share isn't exactly zero. It's quite close to zero, but not exactly.
That's all.

Windows & OS X are the only major _desktop_ operating systems.

And yes, I'm in the US. I'm not sure that really matters that much. Obviously
different shops will do things differently. You don't use a Mac, so your
worldview is that they aren't a thing. That's simply not correct. There's a
wide world outside your bubble. A Thinkpad / Dell with a Linux VM is _your_
choice, not "the proper" choice.

I'm not an OS zealot -- I use both of the major desktop operating systems, and
I use others where they're appropriate -- have used Linux for decades. Until
Linux has MS Office running natively on it, it will never have a desktop
market. No, it's still not the year of the Linux Desktop. Probably never will
be.

And Xcode is a perfectly usable C & C++ IDE. Why wouldn't you use it for
firmware?

~~~
jfkebwjsbx
> Aerospace doesn't run Linux on anything I've ever even heard of, that would
> be foolhardy to the extreme.

It will shock you to learn that most stuff out there now works on Linux and
soft RT Linux. For hard RT where Linux does not fit the bill, specialized
operating systems are used.

> Android is barely Linux

It is actually 100% Linux.

> the rest aren't desktop operating systems at all

Luckily not everyone working on about half a dozen of them thinks like you!

> You call Linux the "third" desktop operating system by default because its
> desktop share isn't exactly zero.

1% is "near zero"? So millions and millions of desktops are "zero"?

We should be telling Canonical, Valve, Microsoft and hundreds of other
companies that depend on "desktop" Linux to work!

> And yes, I'm in the US. I'm not sure that really matters that much.

As I explained, the market share in the US is wildly different than in the
rest of the world.

> You don't use a Mac, so your worldview is that they aren't a thing.

Hah. I have used Apple systems and Xcode for many years. I own (have owned, my
last was right before the Touch Bar debacle) several Macs in my life. That is
why I know a decade ago they were on top of their game and now the ecosystem
sucks for devs.

In another thread I said I think the culture of the Mac died with Jobs and the
company switched to the profitable part too much (the iPhones and such).

> Until Linux has MS Office running natively on it, it will never have a
> desktop market.

Desktop market != Office market. Of course Linux has almost no market on
typical companies with employees doing Word and Excel 8-5.

> And Xcode is a perfectly usable C & C++ IDE. Why wouldn't you use it for
> firmware?

Because everything else is just plainly better, or open source, or free, or
cross-platform, or...

Yes, Xcode is perfectly usable for C++. SublimeText + plugins is perfectly
usable, too. I can also do my job pretty well with gedit or vim or emacs. And
if needed I can do it with bloody Notepad too. That does not mean I choose
them nor that they are the best.

~~~
jki275
Not in aerospace or anywhere else where life & safety are at stake. I'm quite
familiar with those worlds, and Linux doesn't exist there.

Android is not 100% Linux. It's a phone OS that runs a Linux kernel and
essentially nothing else that even looks like a desktop Linux (remember,
that's the discussion).

Yes, 1% is near zero. For desktop use, the only people who use Linux are devs
who are completely buried in the Linux world, and OS zealots. The market
outside of that vanishingly small sector of desktop users is zero -- not close
to zero, not 1%, zero. No one runs Linux on the desktop because they want to
run Linux on the desktop -- you don't even do it. They run it because they
have no other alternative, or because their religion demands it.

Nothing has changed in the Mac "ecosystem" to make their machines worse for
devs in the last ten years. I'm really at a loss to even begin to understand
what you are talking about here. It simply isn't so.

Again, your opinion is that you don't like Xcode. Nothing else you've posted
suggests a real fact.

I've written plenty of code in vi -- even in ed, in Netbeans, whatever. I like
Xcode because it works really well, and if you're in the Mac ecosystem it's
designed to work well there. I don't care if an IDE is open source, I don't
care if it's "free" (Xcode is), and I don't care if it's cross platform. Those
items mean nothing to me, they do nothing for me. If I need to write on a
linux system I'll pull up netbeans or eclipse. Or I'll write it in an ssh
session using vi. So what?

You're continuing to state your opinions as though they are some objective
fact. You don't like Macs for some reason since Jobs died. That's your
opinion. It doesn't match that of many others.

------
nakodari
I have Macbook Pro 13 inch model from 2013 and was really looking forward to
upgrading to this year's rumored Macbook Pro 14 inch laptop. Sigh! Now I will
wait another year. I don't see anything in this refreshed Macbook Pro 13 inch
model that is worth upgrading from my current Macbook.

------
philipkiely
Now all Apple laptops feature magic keyboards. Butterfly switches are no more!

I’m not convinced by the value of the thirteen inch pro versus the air. Same
screen size, keyboard, and ports. Similar upgrade path.

I know that not all i5/i7 etc are created equal, and the 13 inch pro uses
chips that draw more power, but could someone explain the more concrete
difference in performance that a user would see day to day?

~~~
freeone3000
The 13 inch pro will get hotter faster.

The idea is that the additional room in the boost clock should allow you to
open new chrome tabs and load GMail slightly faster, but if you're doing any
sort of sustained performance task, you're going to hit thermal limits within
a minute or two.

~~~
raihansaputra
That's only considering the boost clock though. The thermal package on the
MacBook Air is __horrid__. The MBP can sustain longer periods of boost, albeit
with fans spinning up. The new MBA will literally throttle in minutes on
medium/high loads due to the dysfunctional semi-passive cooling design.

------
athenot
I'm no fan of the TouchBar but once I rearranged it to my liking with
BetterTouchTool[0], at least it's out of my way and has a modicum of
usefulness.

The Escape key is the one key that even BTT didn't fix… because accidentally
hitting the key does actions. I like to rest the fingers of my left hand
around the upper-left corner of the keyboard, relying on touch. And triggering
the escape key without pressing has been very annoying.

So seeing Apple bring back the hardware escape key fixes most of my gripes.
The other improvement I'd like to see is force-touch on the touchbar. That
would require some pressing in order to prevent triggering actions by simply
brushing the fingers.

[0] [https://folivora.ai](https://folivora.ai)

------
corey_moncure
It's astonishing how far the MBP has fallen in ten years. My 2010 MBP was and
still is the perfect laptop design. Look what Apple has taken away from us:
MagSafe, SD card slot, optical audio I/O, RJ45, USB-A, even the top row of our
keyboards. What have we gained? The same internal advances that are in every
other computer, a gimmicky touch bar, fragile keyboard mechanism, and USB-C.

What's really sad is that none of this decline was necessary. All they had to
do was leave the perfect laptop alone, and go on upgrading the internals. Were
they selling the 2010-2012 MBPs at a loss or something?

~~~
nonane
MagSafe was flawed - I’m glad it’s gone. It had massive reliability issues due
to dust getting in between the connectors - which ending up causing charging
problems, excessive heat at the charging port and countless charging adapter
replacements.

~~~
xhruso00
On MBP2015 and i love magsafe.

~~~
sefrost
It's saved me a fortune.

~~~
acolumb
I was in my photography class and my magsafe cable was tripped about four
times in one day. Crazy.

------
DonHopkins
>Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key

Physical escape is what we all need right now, but like people with pre-Magic
Keyboard touch bars, we're all going to have to settle for mental Escape for a
while.

------
lightbulbjim
Hmm. If this had a ~14" display in roughly the current chassis size then it
would be an instant buy for me. Now I'm not sure - is the 14" still happening?
Or should I go for this one?

------
nbrempel
I’ve been a Big Mac user for the last 7 years or so. I initially moved over
from Linux after experiencing the ease of the OSX operating system when
working in software development without the overhead of maintaining something
like Arch Linux.

I’m now looking at system76 and Pop!_OS for my next machine. They seem to be
doing a really good job of creating compelling hardware and software that
works well together. From the sounds of it, Pop!_OS does a really good job
creating that Apple “just works” experience without all the cruft.

~~~
truculent
Pop!_OS looks interesting. Thanks for the recommendation. I’ve been using
Linux since switching from MacOS and have been finding the additional setup
and configuration an extra hassle I don’t want. Although not enough of a
hassle to drop $1,500+ on a new machine. I might have to give this a spin.

------
bluedino
Just a spec bump and addition of the Magic Keyboard. Sure, 10th gen CPU and up
to 4TB/32GB, but no 6-core CPU, no 14" screen. A lot of people are going to be
disappointed.

~~~
mmcconnell1618
Spec bump (not even wifi6) is an indicator of a major design upgrade coming in
the fall. I expect a significant exterior change or the switch to Arm
processors come October.

~~~
PedroBatista
Not this year, maybe next October and it's still a stretch..

Arrogance is an Apple trademark, but they now have become complacent regarding
their products ( not their financial performance though.. )

------
kstenerud
I bought an Honor Magicbook for half the price. It's lightweight, has a
beautiful case, proper touchpad (so I don't use my external apple touchpad
anymore), nice keyboard, long battery life, and I can run whatever OS I want
on it (I'm using Ubuntu atm, but I might try Fedora). It has usb-c, usb-a,
hdmi, and headphone jacks. Everything just works.

I gave up on Mac when they broke their keyboards and started locking me out of
everything. Once my macbook died, I never looked back.

------
sylens
I wonder how many people buying Macbook Pro's this year are trying to load up
before Apple starts the ARM migration, thereby avoiding what may be a rough
first year or two

~~~
mekster
In that sense, the resell value may be quite high on this one as one of the
last working x86 machines where some apps may not migrate or migrate very
slowly to ARM architecture in the coming years.

------
kevindong
Everyone whined about the touchbar and keyboard of the more recent models a
lot. But personally, I was fine with them. I don't really have a preference
between the non-touchbar vs. touchbar models. Same goes for butterfly vs.
scissor keyboards. They were all fine for me.

My person MBP is from 2015 and I've had a 2018 and 2017 15" MBP (with
touchbar/butterfly switches) for work and they've all been thoroughly
acceptable.

------
djhworld
A bit disappointing the 32GB ram option is only available on the £1,799 model
(which, when added, bumps the price to £2,199)

Interestingly on that model the RAM is running at a higher speed (3733MHz
LPDDR4X vs. 2133MHz LPDDR3 memory)

I'm still running my MBP from 2015 which is mostly fine, but Firefox and co.
eat the RAM so would be good for an update. Although for work I use the 16"
2019 model with 32GB and Firefox uses 27GB of that quite easily...

> _djhworld_

~~~
shoo_pl
The ram difference is most likely because the lower-end models use 8th gen
CPU, whereas the top tier uses 10th gen.

------
jupp0r
I don't get the craze. Just remap caps lock. If you use ESC enough to
complain, caps lock is the more ergonomic location anyway.

------
ateevchopra
The great things:

The new keyboard is always welcome. The butterfly keyboard was a huge pain. An
escape key is definitely something that most of us have been waiting for !

The bad: I don't get it why Apple is still sticking with a sub-standard 720p
facetime camera when they can easily upgrade that. For this video-call covid
situation, a nice camera would have been nice

------
throwawaysea
What I am really hoping for is a 14" laptop that includes a discrete GPU.
Hopefully an Nvidia one to allow CUDA work.

------
pbnjay
Only two USB-C ports?!? That's really disappointing, I always have a yubikey
in one so that only leaves one free.

Seeing this, I'm actually more inclined to get the Air since it has faster
ram, a newer processor, and no touch bar. (I'd love 32gb but at Apple prices I
could VPN to a custom built rig and still be under budget)

~~~
bambataa
Last time I complained about this on HN I just got told that I should have
bought a higher specced version. Guess my £1800 wasn’t enough for more than
two ports on a “Pro” device, thanks fanboys!

------
rad_gruchalski
Is it right about time to switch to Catalina? I was excited until I read
“comes with Catalina”. Suggestions?

------
always_left
>Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key

Maybe next year we'll get a new feature, physical F1 key.

------
harha
Is there a good way to figure out how much performance is best suited?

I’m considering an upgrade to my 2013 MBP retina and it would be great to know
how different configurations play out in terms of speed and battery life.

Typical benchmarks are quite difficult to translate to real life usage.

------
threatofrain
To me this pricing sits too closely with the iPad Pro plus magic keyboard,
which Apple has been trying to sell as good enough to be your next Computer.
What’s also puzzling is that the new iPad Pro and magic keyboard combo is so
heavy it’s basically a laptop.

~~~
fluffything
The iPad Pro is heavier than the 2020 Macbook air, so.. yeah...

------
lighthammer
I'm still using the 2015 Macbook Pro (i7, 16GB RAM, 512 SSD) with an iPhone 6S
to supplement.

So far, there has not been a reason to upgrade to any newer version of each.
Maybe I'm just one of those in a small group that is content with the current
experience.

~~~
ruffrey
I had the same setup, but the 2015 MBP died. Repair shop said it was the
touchpad, then touchpad ribbon. neither fixed it.

2020 MBP 16 "feels" the same just a little faster.

------
amiga_500
I always find it so weird with laptops and TVs that they have loads of glossy
pictures of just the screen, with some colourful picture, that I'm looking at
on my monitor.

Are people looking at this and thinking "that is so much better than my
monitor"?

------
greendave
Still limited to 2 USB/TB ports on the base model (and precious little else).
Want more than that and you're paying a minimum of $1800.

Between limited ports and soldered in storage/memory, it feels like Apple has
gone all-in on disposable computers.

------
jakobov
Disappointing. Not 14", bezels look like they are from the 90's and the
machine is rather heavy.

I am switching to XPS 13 developer edition. Goodbye Apple.

Hello Linux and a menu key on my keyboard. The greatest key that no one knows
about.

------
DonHopkins
What are the most essential or coolest add-ons to get for a new MacBook Pro?

Is there a good all-or-many-in-one dongle with several USB or other ports?

Are the any options for extra power supplies?

Is there a good dock for using it with a big display on a desktop?

~~~
whywhywhywhy
>Is there a good all-or-many-in-one dongle with several USB or other ports?

After struggling for a few years trying to use dongles I'm actually becoming
convinced such a thing might not be possible. My screens flicker, my drives
drop out all sorts of issues no matter what the dongle or the devices.

The other thing that points to this is the fact Apple doesn't just sell one,
they could easily sell a USB-A/Display port/Power dock for around $400 and
people would lap it up but curiously they don't because I think deep down they
have realized the only reliable way to use a USB-C port is a one to one
conversion.

------
aczerepinski
I bought this in the high end configuration To be my primary personal
computer. I haven’t figured out what dock I’m going to buy yet, but will
definitely be looking for a one-plug-for-everything setup.

~~~
whalesalad
I have an HP Z27 display that I really like for this reason. It’s got one
(usb-c) umbilical cord to my 15” MBP which provides power to the Mac, delivers
video to the display, and then the display itself is a hub.

You can saturate one link though so I ended up having a second usb-c cord to a
hub mounted with Velcro to the bottom of my desk for the situations where I
need something like gigabit Ethernet or another peripheral.

------
Rebelgecko
"the best typing experience ever on a Mac notebook"

I guess this is a bit subjective, but a greatly prefer the keyboard on my 2010
MBP to the latest "magic" keyboard in the 16' MBPs

------
anorphirith
so the new -macbook air has very poor cooling and throttles the cpu well below
max capacity. -macbook 13" now costs 1800 solely for an up to date processor,
a whopping 400$ to add 16gb of ram, no speaker upgrade, no 14" screen, no
mini-led -macbook 16" seems like a good option but I returned it because it's
just too heavy more unbearably so than the previous 15" I spent 3 years with.
It is also already deprecated since the 10th gen upgrade and mini-led are
around the corner

------
calin2k
So now all the MacBook Pro 13's have no physical function keys?

~~~
fastball
Yep. You can get a MBA though. Not nearly as "airy" as they used to be, given
that the screen is 13" too and you can get a decent amount of RAM in there.
CPU still isn't great, but probably you're not doing super CPU intensive stuff
with a 13" MBP.

------
ranza
I literally just bought a new 13" macbook pro. It arrived just a few days ago!
Do anyone know if they have any type of exchange service or am i stuck with
the one a bought?

~~~
berdario
You can return anything you bought online within 14 days, no need to provide a
justification.

[https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua...](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-
returns/index_en.htm)

------
dxxvi
I have to work with a Windows/Linux laptop and a MacBook Pro. It's very
inconvenient when the MBP keyboard doesn't have Home, End, PageUp, PageDown
and Delete.

~~~
kristianp
I agree, however most of the hn crowd learnt to type on that keyboard layout
so you won't have much sympathy here. Thank goodness for Lenovo keyboards.

------
miguelbemartin
I am surprised to don't see so much difference between the 13" and 16" prices.
Other than that, good movement from Apple, listening to what the people
wanted.

------
flomk
I just don't understand what market Apple thinks they are targeting with the
past few years of MacBook Pro releases, and I say this while on an early 2015
13" Pro.

If the Pro line is truly meant for professionals what does apple think they
are accomplishing by getting rid of features that set them apart from the
competition?

As a former Thinkpad x220 user the 2015's keys are not as good but they are
good enough. When I contrast that to the absolutely horrendous keyboard on the
2017 model, I long for 2015 style keys with their somewhat existent key
travel. The fact that a dedicated escape key was missing on the first keyboard
revision baffles me, and makes me wonder what is going on in product design at
Apple. I have not experienced their newest revision of the keyboard on the 16"
so I cannot speak to that, but it seems to be received more positively than
the 2017 model.

If the touch-bar were there to compliment the function keys instead of replace
them I don't think it would be nearly as hated. As alexggordon mentioned, with
BTT[0] much of the functionality of missing function keys is restored but why
is third party software needed to give back full functionality on what is
supposed to be a laptop for professionals?

On the IO port front, the loss of MagSafe charging is still felt, and while
there are MagSafe like adapters for USB-C, I ask myself why does each new
generation feel full of unneeded and unwanted compromise? Why can't Apple just
stop at replacing the USB-3.0 & Thunderbolt ports with USB-C? A dongle for
ethernet makes sense, a dongle for what seems to be everything is madness.

And what is Apples obsession with making their laptops ever-thinner? The Pro's
are not netbooks from the early 2010s that you can fit in your pocket. Their
obsession with making each generation thinner seems to cause thermal
throttling, with the culprit always being... _insufficient cooling_. Shocker.
Yet this is supposed to be laptop for professionals?

This isn't to say there haven't been improvements. Thinner bezels are always
welcome and Apple clearly puts a great amount of thought into their displays
and it does not go unnoticed. In addition MacBooks only seem to get better at
increasing battery life at levels above the competition.

For the time being the _it just works_ factor of Mac OS and being able to use
almost any linux package/program thanks to homebrew will probably keep me as a
user, but I can't help but notice their _Pro_ lineup seems to less and less
useful for professionals and makes me wonder who Apple thinks wants any of
these changes.

[0] [https://folivora.ai/](https://folivora.ai/)

------
gigatexal
So the question becomes now: who is buying this instead of a thinkpad/Linux
equivalent laptop? Who is coming back to OSX now that the keyboards are
better?

------
PedroBatista
The Apple Tax is becoming so ridiculous even the hardcore fans are getting
pissed..

The price/specs don't make any sense even when compared to Apple a couple
years ago.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
_The price /specs don't make any sense even when compared to Apple a couple
years ago._

Two years ago the prices were $1299, $1499, $1799 and $1999 for the off the
shelf models. Currently the prices are $1299, $1499, $1799 and $1999.

[https://web.archive.org/web/20180503185423/https://www.apple...](https://web.archive.org/web/20180503185423/https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-
mac/macbook-pro/13-inch)

------
ilyas121
For the ppl complaining about the ESC key, real vi users use a separate racing
wheel with haptic feedback to get back to normal mode.

------
StreamBright
I was hoping for a 14" version. Let's wait for the next version either with
ARM or AMD CPUs and better graphics.

------
hhjinks
Happy to see they're back to having a physical escape key. That's my biggest
gripe with my current 13".

------
willis936
If only it had an AMD processor and Nvidia GPU, then we might see some actual
improvement to user experience.

------
tlapinsk
Someone else has probably mentioned this, but looks like they're trying to
sell off old inventory (8th gen, two ports, etc.) with the lower spec
versions. Hopefully they'll refine the product line once those are all gone.

Coming from a 2010 MacBook Pro, I'll be stoked to snag one of the higher end
13" Pros sometime this year. The 16" just isn't portable enough for my taste
unfortunately.

------
neycoda
Why is anyone excited about a new MacBook? I'd be excited to know they make
them last over 5 years.

------
sahoo
₹200,000 indian rupee for 16inch model which is 2399$, ₹175,000 for 1799$
13inch. Bad pricing will pass.

------
jbverschoor
:/... no 14”. Still not a a proper FaceTime camera. Maybe they’ll announce
something during wwdc

~~~
whywhywhywhy
Insane how poor the MacBook line cameras are for the machine price, even the
$400 Surface Go puts them to shame.

------
downvoteme1
The base 1299 model offers a three year old punt 1.4GhZ 8th gen processors and
DDR3 ram .

------
hesk
"the new inverted-“T” arrangement".

ROFL.

------
abinaya_rl
> Better Trackpad

I've been using Dell for the last 6 months. This is the deal-breaker for me.

------
swyx
really gotta love how "Physical Escape Key" is a feature they promote now.

------
sasasassy
No one will acknowledge the use of "faster performance"? Alright.

------
SpookyBits
Someone reading this thread would wonder how Apple is still in business.

------
morsch
Honestly, the take away from these discussions is to get a desktop PC.

~~~
NathanWilliams
I hope one day you grow as a person, and realise different people have
different requirements, preferences and trade-offs.

I value macOS, I work away from a desk more often than on one, and my past Mac
computers have lasted for longer than any other commodity desktop or laptop.

I'm currently replacing a perfectly functional 2011 MBP, and only because I
have some bonus money, otherwise it would have gone another couple years
without issue.

~~~
morsch
I realize that, of course. No need to insult me.

------
eschneider
Wait...is that a hard escape key on there?! Emacs users rejoice! :)

~~~
als0
Vim users too.

------
Traster
Man, it's a really good thing none of us are using video conferencing much
these days, otherwise it would be really embarrassing for Apple to release a
laptop with a 720p webcam.

------
lai
I like how dota2 gameplay was featured on there!

------
rajacombinator
No 14” ... why even bother? Major fail by Apple.

------
leowoo91
Is there any good use of touch bar for coders?

~~~
hombre_fatal
I went in trying to be as charitable as possible, looked for workflows that
might have opened up.

Unfortunately the answer is no.

The problem with trying to find a use for the touchbar can be illustrated with
what the touchbar does when you're using Google Chrome: it shows you the
current URL, and tapping it focuses Chrome's navigation bar. So it's basically
a completely pointless round-trip from screen->touchbar->screen.

Any compelling touchbar feature has to somehow overcome that massive drawback.

------
romanovcode
Still the shitty touch bar - no thank you.

------
mleonhard
What's the CPU model number and TDP?

------
emilfihlman
Can we comment on the web design on the page?

That mouseover highlight and share option is obnoxious. It's strange that
Apple went that route.

------
btbuildem
Wake me up when the new Macbook has more ports and better cooling.. the other
improvements seem a little superficial.

------
jbverschoor
I actually think it’s just a way to get the ordered components out of
inventory.

No big announcement, 14” will come at wwdc

------
j45
I’d love to hear anyone’s experience who has recently switched away from, or
to a Mac.

Nice to see pro class features:

\- 32 GB Ram is overdue, nice speed.

\- 4 years to get a working keyboard that is reliable.

Missing pro class features:

\- Selling a 10th gen CPU 9 months after it’s released at full price is
disappointing.

\- No 6 core option like Dell or Lenovo.

\- The MacBook Pro is the first laptop that has claimed its pro, but has never
offered its own docking solution. Surprising for a company that likes
proprietary connectors. Professionals quite often dock to a desktop setup.

\- Not sure if the battery life can be trusted on the i7. I have yet to own an
i7 13” MBP that delivers battery life as advertised.

\- Not going to a 14” (or waiting for the last possible moment to switch to
14”) is a potential big miss. Lenovo and others have this figured out.

\- Unlike the MacBook Air, the MacBook Pro did not evolve its 13” design to
offer something. The a Dell XPS 13 seems to have and offers a compelling
package.

Having carried a MacBook for the better part of 15 years.. I switched when
Windows Vista arrived and destroyed my computing environment with forced
upgrades, In terms of performance and reliability, the 2014 13” i7 MacBook Pro
could be the peak of Apple laptop quality and performance.

After 2015, the MBP continued its eating disorder obsession with thinness,
which invited thermal issues as well as a keyboard that was never really ready
for the real or professional world.

Current setup:

I purchased a i9 15” MBP a little over a year ago with 32 GB RAM. The ram has
been nice, otherwise its generally been underwhelming and disappointing.

When picking this up, the Apple employee asked if I was excited because he
personally hadn’t see many of this spec sold. I mentioned to him after ones
10th or 15th laptop, you are more buying the death of a new device down the
road.. than buying a new laptop... and I wasn’t looking forward to migrating.

So far, it has needed a replaced screen, battery, keyboard. It suffers like
many from the phantom kernel_task cpu issue if you plug the power and an
accessory on the left side of the laptop that instantly goes away if you plug
in one on each side. I might tolerate this from an inferiorly priced machine.
I carry a large PD battery to top up the 3-4 hour battery life and keep the
laptop charged when carrying it between meetings.

I wonder if it’s normal for so many of my MacBooks to have gone in for repair,
so many times, even though they remain in flawless condition physically years
later.

I don’t buy a laptop, I buy a warranty and a guarantee of a working laptop so
my laptop is can become invisible, just work, etc.

All this.. to say I tried out Ubuntu 20 last week on a Lenovo Tiny PC. Which
turned into 2 monitors. And multiple days of higher productivity than I may
have had in a very long time. No fighting with docker, only using. It feels
like the clarity older OS X environments provided.

I expected to try out windows again because I like the Surface Pro so much.

Now I’m only using the MacBook for business/research/communication tasks, no
more external screens or keyboard, and no longer development and it’s much
more enjoyable to use.

I’m seeing many who were early converts to the Mac moving back to X1 Carbons
and XPS 13’s and the comments here are encouraging for me to consider other
options.

------
creativecupcak3
Until you remove the touchbar and let me run Linux on it, I will NOT give you
a penny.

------
creativecupcak3
Until you remove the touchbar and let me run linux on it, I will NOT give you
a penny.

------
iphone_elegance
What's with the 8th gen processors on the first two models? also the Dota2
screenshot is cool hah

~~~
drdaeman
It's unbelievable, and feels like potentially misleading advertising.

My 2019's MBP 16" can't really run Dota2 at the native resolution. The
framerate is fluctuating widely, and it frequently drops to less than 30fps
for me - without any real action going on and cosmetics equipped. And that's
on supposedly much more performant Radeon Pro 5500M, not Intel Iris Plus.

Also, not really cool as the "player" isn't even pretending to play.

Sort of dual signalling going on "if you know what's going on in the picture -
you get that it's all BS, otherwise look - you can play* games* on this
laptop! shiny!"

------
q92z8oeif
summary: minimally updated cpu and storage. AND WE PUT BACK THE ESCAPE KEY LOT
AT THE NICE PICURE (but don't us to explicitly say it). also we swear the
keyboard might be fixed this time and we will leave you hanging if there's
still a headphone port.

------
pandatigox
Interesting to see that coding is recognised on the landing page, something
that a lot of people here thought that Apple tried to distance from.

~~~
marcinzm
>there is still no physical escape key

Yes there is, it's clearly there in every picture of the keyboard.

~~~
pandatigox
My apologies, my eyes glossed over the tilde key and thought that was the end.
My enthusiasm has returned!

------
jimnotgym
I see $1,299 translates to £1,299 as usual in the Apple world.

I'm glad hipsters have a new toy to sit in coffee shops with while browsing
the web. I truly don't understand why people put up with them.

~~~
cjohnson318
You don't understand why people put up with Apple consumers? Or Apple the
company? Or specifically MacBook Pros?

------
nivertech
4 cores? Pro? 2020? lol

EDIT:

maybe 4 cores are enough for development using non-compiled languages, and if
you don't use Chrome and Electron apps, and not running several VMs and docker
containers.

Some programming languages like Julia and Erlang/Elixir will happily use all
the cores available on your laptop to speed up calculations, run builds, tests
and other development tasks.

~~~
lmilcin
4 cores is actually more than enough to do almost all development. I work on a
four core PC right now (i7-4770k) running Linux and couple VMs and containers,
one VM dedicated to running Windows 10 which is in turn running Citrix client.
I have two 4K monitors and bunch of hardware. I work on webapps, backend
software, have couple IDEs running at the same time and probably Zoom session,
not to mention huge amount of Chrome tabs.

It all works without hitch and if there is a hitch it is typically Chrome or
Gnome misbehaving, not lack of cores.

~~~
threatofrain
I find compilation painful even on my desktop, and cost of operation is still
on my mind when I’m trying to do a quick demo to people. I feel like people
here who are professionals make enough to justify buying away these latencies
and distractions.

~~~
lmilcin
I agree with your last sentence. As with any tools, it depends on your usage.

But saying that 4 cores is ridiculous misses the truth. A lot of people,
myself included, use 4 core machines completely successfully.

If you need more, there is absolutely nothing wrong with paying more for more
powerful machine. It's just not every PC on the market has to have absolutely
most powerful configuration available at the moment.

------
lmilcin
I just looked to check. Still no physical Fn keys, still shallow butterfly
keyboard. That's a pass.

Hopefully Apple comes to its senses some day and creates a computer that is
designed for actual work, where a single beard follicle is not going to make
it unusable midday.

~~~
tomstuart
The Magic Keyboard uses scissor switches, not butterfly.

~~~
lmilcin
And how do these scissors work with beard follicle? It's all the same to me,
really, if it can't survive piece of hair. For the past 20 years I have been
using Thinkpads.

My last one is T440s which I bought immediately it was available and still
wait for it to die. I would like a MBP but seeing what the Thinkpad went
through I just don't think so. I spilled stuff on it not once but twice, once
hot latte and once a liter of mineral water in a bag. I had to open it and
stand it on its side while open so that water drains out of it... Then I had
to disassemble it and dry individual leaves of which the screen is composed
of.

I had to take the rest of the day off in both cases to save my laptop but
other than that I was ready for work the next day, files intact, tools in
place.

~~~
ubercow13
T440s also uses scissors like almost every laptop

~~~
lmilcin
Thinkpad keyboard is completely unlike Apple keyboards, however the technology
is called. Just the key travel on Thinkpad is probably more than entire
thickness of Apple keyboard.

~~~
pmart123
Having both a macbook and a Thinkpad, the Thinkpad trackpad is absolutely
horrendous to use.

