
Ask HN: Should I teach my kids to type with QWERTY or Dvorak? - parvenu74
While I&#x27;m not training my children to become programmers, it&#x27;s a virtual certainty that any job&#x2F;profession will require the use of a computer, and that means the ability to type.  I keep reading that those who can type using the Dvorak layout are faster but have always thought &quot;I&#x27;m too old to switch keyboard layouts at this point&quot; -- but what about my kids who haven&#x27;t even learned to type yet?<p>Are there downsides of learning something other than QWERTY and, if so, do the benefits outweigh the negatives?
======
ausbah
I don't think there is anything to gain speed wise from using Dvorak, and
you'll only more compatibility issues from having to work in a QWERTY focused
world.

[https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/17/18223384/dvorak-qwerty-
ke...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/17/18223384/dvorak-qwerty-keyboard-
layout-10-years-speed-ergonomics)

Above is a good article on the topic.

~~~
mruts
It's not really about speed, it's about comfort. I can type with both layouts
very quickly, but can maintain my speed for longer on Dvorak. Moreover, Qwerty
makes my hands hurt very very quickly, while I can keep typing with Dvorak all
day long.

~~~
ScottFree
I don't know why mruts is being downvoted. The only reason to use Dvorak,
imho, is the better ergonomics. I switched to it over a decade ago because my
hands were showing early signs of repetitive stress. The pain went away right
after switching and has not come back. The other benefit is that nobody can
use my computers because nothing but gibberish comes out when they type.

That said, if you can type comfortably in Qwerty, I suggest using it. Being
able to type on any keyboard without having to hunt around for the keyboard
layout switcher is nice.

~~~
Nadya
As someone who learned to type in QWERTY, Dvorak, and Colemak (in that order)
my belief is that most people attribute ergonomics and improved typing ability
to the new alternative layout they learned instead of the fact that they
finally learned how to type properly, seeing as very few people I know seem to
have learned how to properly type - even ones who can type much faster-than-
the-average (80-120wpm where average is well under 60wpm)

I found Dvorak to be significantly worse than QWERTY in both speed and
comfort, seeing as Dvorak is more heavily biased towards the right hand and I
am left hand dominant (although _mostly_ ambidextrous). I then gave Colemak a
try and found it to be a bit more comfortable and eventually trained to reach
my previous QWERTY speed of 165-170wpm. I use QWERTY at work but Colemak at
home.

Note: by "mostly ambidextrous" I mean that most tasks I can use either
arm/hand. I write with my right but throw and punch with my left.

~~~
ScottFree
> my belief is that most people attribute ergonomics and improved typing
> ability to the new alternative layout they learned instead of the fact that
> they finally learned how to type properly

Not in my case. I first learned to type properly on Qwerty.

> I found Dvorak to be significantly worse than QWERTY in both speed and
> comfort, seeing as Dvorak is more heavily biased towards the right hand and
> I am left hand dominant

I'm going to need to see some proof for that assertion. Just going off the top
of my head, I'd say I type far more with my left hand than my right using
Dvorak.

~~~
Nadya
_> Not in my case. I first learned to type properly on Qwerty._

I'll take you at your word, but most people I see claim this have extremely
poor typing habits. Similar to a self-taught musician who ingrained poor
habits because they never had anyone around to correct them.

 _> I'm going to need to see some proof for that assertion. Just going off the
top of my head, I'd say I type far more with my left hand than my right using
Dvorak._

Sure thing. Summing the frequencies in the English language and applying it to
the keyboard layouts gives:

Dvorak: Left 43.2%, Right 56.8%

QWERTY: Left 58.7%, Right 41.3%

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency#Relative_freq...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency#Relative_frequencies_of_letters_in_the_English_language)

------
DarkWiiPlayer
QWERTY 100%

Living in Germany and being used to QWERTY it's really hard for me to use
someone elses computer, because it will most likely be QWERTZ (German layout)
and that alone annoys me to no end. I can't imagine how difficult it would be
to be used to a completely different keyboard.

~~~
stunt
> it's really hard for me to use someone elses computer

How often do you type on someone else's computer? It is not comparable to the
amount of time you use your own keyboard.

~~~
jabwork
For the OPs context (their kids) I expect they'll have a lot of typing too do
on school computers

------
mprev
Think of it this way: would you teach your kids Esperanto instead of the
native tongue in your country?

Perhaps without realising it, the question you're asking is, "Should I teach
my kids the thing that will help them in society as it exists or should I
teach them a potentially superior but less applicable alternative?"

~~~
diggan
I guess the difference between _how_ to write something compared to _what_ to
write.

If people writing qwerty couldn't understand people who wrote dvorak, I would
understand your argument, but languages are so much more different than a
keyboard layout.

But in the end, both keyboard layouts end up being able to write exactly the
same words, the only difference is the speed (as I understand, only once tried
using dvorak so I don't really know)

~~~
mprev
I see what you're saying but I think you're taking my point too literally.

QWERTY is the default layout (in English speaking countries and as QWERTY was
mentioned, I assume OP is in an English speaking country). QWERTY is on the
computers in schools, on the computers available to buy in stores, on the
computers in offices.

Teaching kids Dvorak is putting them at a disadvantage in life, just as
teaching them Esperato, Inrterlingua, Lojban, or similar artificial languages
instead of English might seem intellectually appealing but would set them up
for a life of difficulty.

~~~
diggan
I see what you are saying too but I don't think speaking/understanding two
different languages are the same as using two different keyboard layouts.

If I never seen a qwerty keyboard before and only used dvorak, I could
probably type with it, it would only be a bit slower than usual. Same when I
see someone with a dvorak keyboard. Although the layout is very different, I
could still use it, but it slows me down a lot.

However, if someone only speaks/understands Esperanto meets someone who only
speaks English, it will be way harder for them to understand each other,
harder than trying to understand another keyboard layout.

~~~
mprev
I'm not suggesting that they're the same. Instead, I'm offering an example of
another thing you could do in your child's education that might seem good at
the time but would actually give them a disadvantage.

I get that using a Dvorak keyboard isn't a total barrier to communication but
it is non-standard in our society and so possible advantages would be
outweighed by the children having to adjust when they encounter the world at
large.

------
KlaymenDK
My kids are not quite old enough to require keyboard input (doing it, not
receiving it, ya dummy) but I have pondered this very question.

I have been using Dvorak almost exclusively for about 15 years now. It's not
faster, that's a myth -- but it is much more easy on the fingers: depending on
the nature of your prose, you'll save perhaps 30% finger movement. With
Colemak, that number is less, but you gain a more comparable (to qwerty)
shortcut-key layout.

Obviously, there are all sorts of adversities facing Dvorak typists: native
hardware keyboard layouts, limits to the users ability to configure software
keyboard layouts (for instance, you may be able to change it on your desktop
-- but not on the lock screen!), and of course having to fall back to qwerty
on other's devices.

Curiously, on a non-touch-typing device such as the touch screen of a tablet
or mobile phone, I'm useless on Dvorak (perhaps exactly because Dvorak was
designed for hand-alteration?), so there I'm by far more proficient with one
hand on qwerty.

In the end, I think I will settle for showing them both layouts in use at
their home, and let them decide which to use. However, @kqr makes a number of
very good points, not least the RSI one.

There's also quite a lot of knowledge tucked away in this post:
[https://blog.hanschen.org/2010/01/30/dvorak-two-years-
later-...](https://blog.hanschen.org/2010/01/30/dvorak-two-years-later-was-it-
worth-it/)

~~~
federico3
> It's not faster, that's a myth

This is false. There a plenty of statistics showing that Dvorak is faster
(albeit it's true that the main benefits is around finger movement)

> native hardware keyboard layouts

Never been a problem: you don't need (or want) to look at the keys anyways.

> limits to the users ability to configure software keyboard layouts

Also not a problem: you cannot touch-type on a phone and also you type with
thumbs.

~~~
bluGill
Studies often show Dvorak is faster, but when you dig you discover they are
not comparing equivalent. People who learn Dvorak are more likely to be better
typists. When you compare equals you discover that the speed of the mind is
the limit not the speed of the fingers and so it makes no difference.

As I recall there is one exception: if you are just copying something without
having to think about it dvorak is faster. This isn't a common job, but it
does exist.

------
tomaha
Teach them QWERTY. I use Programmer's Dvorak and I love it. But I also have a
very specialized setup and everything optimized for myself. Your kids will
have to work with different setups in the next decade or two. For them it's
more important to be flexible. Later when they specialized themselves and only
work in an environment they control they can switch and choose whatever fits
them.

~~~
c0vfefe
To get philosophical, a parents' job is more to prepare a kid for the world as
it is, rather than engrain your own preferences to the point of
impracticality.

------
ordu
I'll ask one question. Is someone really needs typing speeds over 200
keys/minute? What task nowadays benefits from such speeds? Will these tasks
keep being relevant in ten years?

As a programmer I do not need 200 chars/minute. I believe that developed
skills to use movement keys and key sequences, like arrow keys, Ctrl-arrows,
Home, End, and others. For example, I struggle every time with a laptop
keyboard, because Home/End/Delete are oddly placed and I miss them half of the
times.

~~~
beatgammit
I'll ask a different question: why should someone use QWERTY? If you're
learning for the first time, you don't have anything they to compare to, so
you might as well use a scientifically better option, right?

I learned Dvorak because I wanted to be part of an elite group (I mean, how
many Dvorak typists are they?). I kept using it because my wrist pain went
away. Perhaps that's because I relearned to type and thus fixed bad habits. I
had pretty good form before learning Dvorak, so I like to think that the
reduced finger travel is helping.

But how will your child feel when they're different than their friends and
have to make special accommodations when using someone else's computer? That's
a bit more important than any technical benefit IMO, and is why I'll teach my
kids QWERTY.

~~~
ordu
Please, notice, I do not argue that someone should use QWERTY. I'm just trying
to point that the strongest reason to prefer Dvorak maybe not a reason
anymore. Maybe there are other reasons, I dont know. But it seems for me that
people keep arguing about speed while all that discussion might be obsolete.
They'd better to discuss other reasons.

 _> But how will your child feel when they're different than their friends and
have to make special accommodations when using someone else's computer?_

Accidently I wrote a wall of text answering to this. I'm sorry, it is one of
my favorite topics: developmental psychology. The tl;dr version of it is: I
wouldn't teach my child how to type at all.

Now the long version.

If children wanted to be different, than I would say them: it is all up to
you, my children, if you need my blessing, you got it.

Look, a person get a desire to be different somewhere after 15 years old
typically. Maybe some manage to develop to this point earlier, but I do not
know about such a cases. Mostly they get to it after 15. Before that his
difference from others would be either indifferent or annoying.

If you taught your child to use Dvorak while he was in a kindergarten, it
would go as you planned up to a moment when you child hits puberty (~12yo).
Before it the motivation of a child is built over her desire to be a good girl
(or boy, gender doesn't matter). She was not interested in being like others
or being different. After that the motivation is an approvement of her
friends. It means that teen becomes obsessed of being _like_ others, and her
underdeveloped skills of using QWERTY might get on the way of it. What will
follow? The same that follow everytime with every teen and her parent, teen
will decide that her parent is crazy weird graybeard, that it is a shame to
have such a parent, and the only way to deal with it is to hide parent and his
weird habits from friends. It means to pretend that she prefer QWERTY, to use
QWERTY always, and even to provoke parents by using QWERTY defiantly and by
arguing that Dvorak is bad and causes pimples. If you allow her to provoke
you, if you start argue, than you just prove her that she was right about your
inability to accept new ideas.

It is not necessarily would go by this scenario, but it is completely
plausible scenario. If you are going to teach your child to some uncommon
habits, then you need to take into a consideration that it could end badly.
May I suggest an other way to do it? Don't teach your child to use Dvorak.
Don't teach your child to use QWERTY. Let him to be a bad typist for the first
15 years of his life, it would do him no harm. Teach him instead to play a
piano -- it gives him meta-skills that could help to learn any keyboard
layout. Teach him to play a piano and wait patiently. Watch for him, you need
a moment when your child stops being a jerk who believes that his friends are
smarter and more experienced than his parents. It can happen at 15 years old,
or 17 years old, or even 20 years old. Personal differences are great here.

After that you a free to convince your kid to learn Dvorak. It might be not so
hard as it looks. After ~15 yo teens like to work on themselves to become
better and stronger. So it is completely possible to convience him to learn
Dvorak even without a manipulation.

Moreover, after all that was said, I believe that it is a bad idea to teach
child to type. He will not need his skill for 10+ years at least. So why to
bother? It is like to teach child to read at 3 years old, to be able to brag
about how bright child is. No one is interested that for a 3 year old it is
very hard to learn to read, it would be much easier at 5-6 years old. No one
is interested that 3 years old have other skills to develop, skills that are
easier to learn at 3 years old and maybe impossible to learn at 5 years old.
No one is interested that to learn how to read child needs to read, but if he
was taught to read at 3 years old, than he wouldn't use his skill for 2-5
years when he would read his first book. He might lose the feeling of novelty,
and the book reading would seem boring for him before he tried.

People obsessed with early development but do not bother to learn basics of
developmental psychology and to develop their children for a sake of children,
not for a sake of parents.

------
simonh
Bear in mind there's no point switching to a Dvorak keyboard unless you also
teach them to touch type. A touch typist on a regular keyboard is still going
to be a lot faster than a non-touch typist on a Dvorak.

~~~
benrbray
I'm confused--according to a quick search, "touch typing" is being able to
type without looking at the keyboard?

Can you even say you know how to type if you have to look at the keys to do
it?

~~~
viraptor
Yes. Have a look at some professionals you interact with that you'd expect to
type a lot. Real estate agents, doctors, bankers, etc. You don't have to look
far to find someone who pecks with index fingers whole looking at the
keyboard. They sure know how to type (they produce the text they intend to)
and do a lot of it every day.

~~~
sundvor
Seeing people hunt for keys with one or two index fingers - not when writing
something profound, requiring of thought, but simply filling out forms - is
_incredibly frustrating_. I'm going to argue they can't type when they're
still using the keyboard as if it's the first day they saw one.

A day or two spent learning to type would pay itself back with dividends.

I put in the ground work for touch typing at school on the good old
typewriters; it was certainly the best extra curriculum subject I've ever
done.

~~~
Shish2k
> I'm going to argue they can't type

They push the buttons and letters appear on screen. That's typing - everything
else is optimisation :P

------
danieka
When I was in school the only computers I had access to were in the schools
computer halls which were shared with every other class in school. Settings
like keyboard changes could not be persisted, and even so I got a different
computer every time.

I love Dvorak and using it has been a huge boon for me, but I'm also able to
control my environment and always use the same computer.

So I say go with QWERTY.

~~~
c0vfefe
Even if the kid has a laptop like many do now, how easily will they learn
Dvorak when qwerty comes stock?

------
todd8
I don’t use Dvorak, but I’ve been intrigued by alternative layouts for years.
I taught my daughter QWERTY years ago. My reasoning was that the speed
difference between QWERTY and other layouts isn’t great, technology may change
input methods before she was typing enough to worry about repetitive use
injuries, and primarily because QWERTY keyboards are everywhere. At school the
ubiquitous keyboards are all QWERTY and at work likewise.

As an EMACS user I bind my keyboard’s caps lock to ctrl. That makes me realize
just how often I’m typing on someone else’s keyboard (my fingers automatically
hit caplock-B instead of back arrow for example). If I used Dvorak I think it
would be much more frustrating trying to use a random keyboard.

It didn’t take very long to teach my daughter touch typing. I would place my
fingers on top of hers at first and touch her fingers during simple typing
lessons to show her which finger to use. This seemed to allow her to connect a
letter to the correct finger very quickly.

Xah Lee has studied typing and keyboards for years. Take a look at his web
site; it’s full of information [1]. He’s a Dvorak user.

[1]
[http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_dvorak_layout.html](http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_dvorak_layout.html)

------
cordite
You can be bilingual in layouts.

I first learned QWERTY without any training, I needed to type for school and I
wasn’t gonna hunt and peck. Then I decided to try out Dvorak for comfort and
never looked back. (Though the experience was painful to switch over after
years of QWERTY)

I can still type QWERTY, in fact that’s what I use on my tablet with my
thumbs, it’s a great layout for thumb typing, rarely do I find my fingers
reaching over one another and I can type without looking at my screen.

That said, for physical tacticile button pressing, I much prefer Dvorak, even
without labels (typing on a MacBook keyboard for example, I ignore the QWERTY
printed layout) I don’t have difficulty. It’s all about the physical sensation
and which mode or language or whatever gets invoked in my head.

I cannot type QWERTY effectively on MacBook keyboards or on most mechanical
ones now, because of how they feel and what I use that feel for. But if it’s a
cheapo Logitech or dell keyboard that you find at public locations and at
work, there is barely a moment of conflict.

------
brutally-honest
I switched from QWERTY to my language's equivalent of Dvorak and a few years
later back.

I think most important than the layout itself, is to learn how to touch type.
Keeping your fingers on the home row. Using opposing control characters
instead of using one hand to reach multiple keys, etc etc.

------
viraptor
Why not both? If you're teaching kids, as long as you keep them interested,
they'll learn anything. Knowing both, they'll be able to both use shared
systems and choose the preferred layout for private situations.

------
robotmay
I looked at learning an alternative layout last year and opted against Dvorak,
as to me it just seemed illogical (personal opinion). I ended up teaching
myself the Workman layout instead
([https://workmanlayout.org/](https://workmanlayout.org/)) which is actually
really nice. I was using a split keyboard and I found it very comfortable when
typing prose, but I found punctuation frustrating due to the board I was using
it on. I'm currently back on Qwerty as I've swapped to a different board.

Ultimately I discovered that my typing style with Qwerty was actually not
stressful on the hands (I float over the keyboard a lot and definitely don't
sit on the "home" keys) and my RSI at the time was instead caused by position
and lack of exercise. I now type on a Japanese layout keyboard which has some
interesting differences to the standard UK ISO layout. At some point I might
give Workman a go on this board too, but currently I'm actually completely
happy with Qwerty again. I think a lot of these alternative layouts suffer
problems if you aren't a home-row typist, and I don't actually think it's
unergonomic or incorrect to type in a more floating, active way. But I play a
bunch of key-based instruments too so maybe that affects my preference :)

It took me about 1 month to be close to my normal typing speed when using
Workman btw.

------
federico3
Dvorak. I know 5 people, including myself, that switched to Dvorak and none of
us regretted it or switched back.

It's not about speed, at least for me, but reducing stress on fingers and
prevent inflammation and RSI.

Touch-typing comes easier with Dvorak. Even better if you use a Dvorak layout
on a querty keyboard: there's no point in looking at the keys and this is also
good for back/neck posture.

Please ignore all the people who insist on using qwerty without having had at
least a year of Dvorak use experience.

------
quickthrower2
I’ve heard Dvorak users complain the regular shortcuts are geared up for
QWERTY. I’ve also heard that Dvorak isn’t any faster. All anecdotal of course.

~~~
c0vfefe
The most common shortcuts do tend to be on the left side of a Qwerty, but in a
Windows environment at least, almost every letter key is bound to a common
shortcut. As an avid shortcut user, the only letters for which I can't
remember a hotkey is Y, and M if you don't use Win+M.

Programs like AutoHotkey can solve that issue when available.

------
comboy
Others answered the question, I'm just about this "I'm too old to switch"
bullshit.

Whatever age you are, it will be hard. It will be very uncomfortable at first.
But that's kind of great. You get to teach your brain something new. Keep
pushing that neuroplasticity.

When you are old(er) it's really hard to learn something truly new. Learning
most things is just connecting a few existing patterns. You'll get some
dopamine and you will be really proud that you've done that.

You can also rationalize that it will pay off on the long run, but let's be
real, if you are an advanced programmer you likely spend more time thinking
than typing. It can be a more pleasurable experience to type though.

Take the challenge and teach yourself Dvorak (or Colemak, doesn't matter).
Even if you are a proficient typer it's also a chance to do some refactoring
of the skill.

------
peelle
I use Dvorak, I'm faster in Dvorak, and have less RSI issues. As an adult that
works from hardware I control I almost never have to type QWERTY anymore.

In the past things like computer labs, and locked down school computers would
have pushed me to recommend QWERTY. Nowadays everyone has their own iPad, or
laptop, so this is much less of an issue.

The only time I have issues is during computerized testing, or using someone
else's computer. I have a USB dongle that I can put between the keyboard and
computer that'll swap the characters I type Dvorak, and the dongle swaps the
QWERTY input to the correct ones as I go.

For testing I can request they change the layout, but it rarely gets approved.
For random people, they usually let me add another layout without issue.

I'm recommending Dvorak, but there will still be a few pain points.

------
kqr
If you're willing to put in the effort of teaching them touch typing on a real
keyboard (by blanking out the keycaps or whatnot), go ahead and teach them on
Colemak or Dvorak or whatnot.

I don't care much for the arguments of the ubiquity of Qwerty for multiple
reasons:

1\. They will be exposed to Qwerty on devices where touch-typing is
meaningless, such as smartphones and tablets.

2\. They will learn Qwerty eventually anyway, and they'll be proficient in
both. Why set them off on the worse of the two options from the start?

3\. I'm sure schools and other parts of society are moving away from shared
workstations onto personal laptops, where they get to control keyboard
settings.

4\. If I had to choose between being doomed to RSI or encountering keyboard
incompatibilities every now and then, I would not pick RSI lightly.

Learning Colemak was painful for a while, but worth it many, many times over
in retrospect.

~~~
shawxe
> 1\. They will be exposed to Qwerty on devices where touch-typing is
> meaningless, such as smartphones and tablets.

I'm not sure having a keyboard layout completely interalized is ever really
meaningless. For example, I typed this entire reply on my phone without
looking at the keyboard once, based solely on knowledge of the positions of
the different keys in relation to one another. Furthermore, even if I had been
looking at the keyboard, having memorized the locations of everything in some
part of my mind would definitely make it faster to type than if I had no idea
where anything was. Besides, if someone were most familiar with a non-Qwerty
layout, why wouldn't they just set their phone to that?

------
scottmsul
I taught myself Dvorak my first year in undergrad. It definitely felt easier
to type, but as soon as I went to physics lab I realized I couldn't use the
lab computer! I have stuck to Qwerty since then.

When your children go to school, do you think using Dvorak will make it easier
or harder to use school computers?

------
melling
Perhaps people should also consider ergonomics. QWERTY tends to require a lot
more finger movement.

[http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-
analyzer/#/main](http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main)

Over a lifetime this might lead to RSI.

------
mruts
I don't think there are really any downsides. I can type in both Dvorak and
QWERTY at over 120wpm and don't have any trouble switching between the two. I
also use QWERTY on my phone, so maybe that helps a bit.

Dvorak is definitely superior to QWERTY comfort-wise (I used to get bad RSI
with QWERTY, but that doesn't happen for Dvorak), and maybe speed-wise, though
my speed in both is about the same. I can keep up a high rate of speed on
Dvorak longer than QWERTY, though.

An an aside, I don't think you're ever too old to try something new. I learned
Dvorak as an adult and it only took me a couple weeks before I was up to my
QWERTY speed. Interestingly enough, after I learned Dvorak my speed with
QWERTY actually increased, for whatever reason.

------
stunt
Choose a comfortable layout but also consider hardware and software support
for it. Dvorak is a good choice. Comfortable enough and well supported. QWERTY
is probably one of the worst layouts for your fingers.

I'm using Dvorak and I can still type on QWERTY keyboards with 70% of my
normal speed.

I'm pretty sure the total amount of time that I'm typing on someone else's
computer (QWERTY) is less than one hour per year and I don't need speed or
accuracy when it happens. Not to mention, my external keyboard supports Dvorak
in hardware level. So I could just connect my keyboard and type Dvorak on any
computer without changing any configuration. But it happens so rarely that I
don't bother to do it.

------
cameldrv
I think this is almost the same as asking "should I encourage my ambidextrous
child to write with his left or right hand?" You can get by just fine as a
lefty, but there are daily annoyances, because the world is built for
righties.

Keyboards are on computers, phones, on-screen in video games and TVs, on
vending machines, and in car entertainment systems. Some of these can be
converted into Dvorak if you find the right menu setting, others must be used
as-is.

If someone hands you their phone or you sit down to pair program, now you have
to figure out some menu setting, and then you have to remember to reverse it
when you're done or the owner of the device is going to be annoyed with you.
Not worth it.

------
ryandvm
Teach them to use QWERTY first. It's the layout that almost everyone uses and
it's one of the skills that will make them relevant in the modern workforce.
The last thing an employer wants to deal with is some sap that shows up
pissing and moaning that they need a new keyboard.

Teaching them DVORAK first is like raising your kids to speak Esperanto as a
primary language. Sure, maybe it's an objectively better language, but at what
cost?

If they actually get to the point that they're typing enough that they're
interested in pursuing more efficient/ergonomic layouts, that's a choice that
is best left up to them.

------
jmull
Looks like there's already plenty here you can use to make an informed
decision, but one more thing to think about:

Typing speed, beyond a basic level of competence, has pretty much nothing to
do with programming skill. In fact, if your bottleneck is typing speed, you're
likely better off stopping and spending some time thinking about how you might
be doing things differently. (Not that we haven't all been there, but it
should be a vanishingly small proportion of your overall time, hopefully.)

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docdeek
I learnt QWERTY as a kid/teenager in Australia.

Arriving in France 13 years ago I was a bit lost tempoararily with the switch
to AZERTY, almost to the point of seeking out a keyboard online to get back to
a ‘normal’ keyboard. I stuck it out, though, and soon anything but AZERTY
seemed strange and slow - visiting my parents in London and henpicking around
their keyboard when I am meant to be ‘the tech-y one’ is always a little
amusing.

Go with QWERTY, and if they want to change later they can and will.

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dougmwne
You are not too old to learn Dvorak. If you're interested in it, go for it. It
took me about a week and it was a fun project. Then, after a few months I
dropped it and went back to Qwerty. The world uses Qwerty and I was being too
contrarian.

There's no need to subject your kids to this mess of a debate. You don't even
use Dvorak at home. There's basically no chance they'd continue to use it
later in life. Prepare them for the world that's actually out there.

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alasarmas
If you live in the United States, one thing to consider is that the GRE
(Graduate Record Examination, standardized entrance examination for graduate
school) requires the test-taker to type an essay on a QWERTY keyboard, with no
possibility of using a different keyboard layout short of a documented
disability. Further, spelling counts on this essay, so typos made due to
unfamiliarity with the keyboard layout will bring down the grade.

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AdmiralAsshat
I type somewhere between 90-103 WPM on a QWERTY layout, and I'm not even using
proper home row position. My uncle let me play with a computer starting from
the age of 5, and so by the time they taught us "keyboarding" in high school,
my self-taught method was pretty set in stone. I only use maybe 6 of my 10
fingers when typing.

Which is to say, your children will be fine. Just let them practice, and
they'll get more than fast enough.

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Endy
The QWERTY standard has lasted since the Remington 2, and most devices are
based on it. That's what you should teach your children first. If you intend
to teach them languages early, QWERTZ or AZERTY might be valuable. If you're
thinking of teaching them Mandarin, teach them to use a Chinese keyboard as
well as QWERTY.

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jyriand
Maybe not the best analogy, but teaching Dvorak is like forcing left-handed
child to write with right hand. But maybe it’s other way around. I wouldn’t
actively try to teach them anything, but let them learn on their own. At some
point they would understand that my laptop keyboard is different from mommy’s
and adapt accordingly.

~~~
c0vfefe
The reason it's not the best analogy is because keyboard layout is not
biologically programmed like handedness. If anything, Dvorak being more
ergonomic makes it more biologically friendly.

> I wouldn’t actively try to teach them anything, but let them learn on their
> own.

Not to dole out parenting advice, but not influencing your kid concerning a
fundamental skill like typing is 1) a mistake, & 2) unavoidable once they
start asking questions.

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mcfunk
They might find greater ease with learning both at this point in life. But
unless you homeschool, the probability that your children will have to work on
QWERTY computers they don't have the ability to change into Dvorak input mode
at school approaches 1. They'll need it.

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kgwxd
No one has ever presented hard evidence that another layout is faster or
healthier. Any job that requires typing faster than you can think would have
to be mindless and, no matter what keyboard, would likely result in RSI. I
wouldn't recommend anyone take that job.

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foreigner
I also have kids and am interested in the same question, but I would raise it
up a level and ask: "Should I teach my kids to type?"

Right now they mostly use voice recognition and seem to be getting along
pretty well...

~~~
bjelkeman-again
Learning to touch type was probably life changing for me. I write quite a lot
of reports, business plans, proposals, grant applications etc. and I can type
nearly as fast as I can verbalise what I am thinking, and it has made me super
productive compared to when I couldn’t type.

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jenhsun
Don't worried. Let them choose what to play with. They will learn faster than
you, I promise.

Off-topic: I'm kinda worried our kids might not know or use pens correctly if
we keep pushing keyboard use.

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hackerpacker
been there, use qwerty.

1\. every keyboard in the wild they encounter will be qwerty

2\. probably a matter of time before keyboard is fully optional/non existent.

This will give them zero "advantage" in the real world.

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kojeovo
You gonna teach them to carry a Dvorak keyboard with them everywhere they go
too?

