

Apple loses patent claim against Samsung in Tokyo court - factorialboy
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/apple-loses-to-samsung-in-japan-patent-case/287057-11.html

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veidr
It should be noted that in Japan, such cases aren't tried by lay juries.
(Actually even for criminal cases, they are only just starting citizen jury
trials.)

A judge, or panel of judges, decides such cases, and I believe that the ones
who try patent cases are, generally speaking, reasonably competent (and thus
much less likely to make the incontrovertible errors seen in the recent US
Apple-Samsung case).

~~~
da_n
Superfluous much?

" _lay_ juries" - A jurer is by definition a layman. If a jury was full of
experts it would completely miss the point.

" _incontrovertible_ errors" - I guess you are talking about the (relatively)
tiny misappropriated damages? This was fixed at the time, and it was not
denied or disputed. Wonder why you chose to qualify this as such and not
provide any specifics?

Edit: clarity.

~~~
veidr
Whatever, bro; I have some iPads and iPhones (all 8 models, actually) to go
along with my Android (and various other) devices, but I certainly don't have
a 'team', whether it be Wal-Mart vs Target, Apple vs Sony, or broccoli vs
cauliflower.

A juror is by definition a layman in America; however, other places do in fact
exist, and there are and have been all sorts of qualifications for being on
juries around the world.

Finally, you are right: it was indeed the impossible logic of the damage
awards that makes it possible to just say it plain that the jury in that made
a fast decision that was clearly ( _incontrovertibly_ ) erroneous.

(I think that other aspects of the verdict also show incorrect
understanding/thinking, but that discussion gets more nuanced.)

~~~
w1ntermute
> Whatever, bro; I have some iPads and iPhones (all 8 models, actually) to go
> along with my Android and various other devices, but I certainly don't have
> a 'team', whether it be Wal-Mart vs Target, Apple vs Sony, or broccoli vs
> cauliflower.

You don't need to defend yourself on this. Ever since the trial decision,
Apple fanboys have been upset at people raining on their parade with facts.
And there's certainly no shortage of Apple fanboys on HN.

------
oemera
It's a shame that a 'article' with so little information makes on the
frontpage of HN. These days the headline needs just to name Apple and it is
guaranteed to show up on the frontpage.

I wonder if someone could write a plugin to just ban all Apple news from HN.

Edit: typo.

~~~
rimantas
There will be interesting news related to Apple, but all those patent cases
should disappear, no matter who is involved. There is very little possibility
for a constructive discussion.

~~~
josteink
If nothing else, it reinforces that people who think they are being hip when
they make Apple-only or iOS-only or iOS/Retina-tailored solutions are working
for the dark side(tm). Heck, even if you make mobile apps, also for Android,
but do iOS first, you are part of the problem.

I think these people need to hear it again and again and again until they
actually get it and stop supporting one of the least ethical companies in the
tech industry today. You are giving the wicked emperor more power. Stop doing
that! It wont make him any nicer.

I say keep them coming. Filtering news to ease the conciousness of people
assisting "evil" makes no sense.

We should be the ones driving Apple. Apple should not be the one driving us.
We've seen the result of that already.

Edit: specific industry-niche qualifier was needed.

~~~
Volpe
>... one of the least ethical companies around today.

Are you serious? You believe a computer company is one of the least ethical
companies?

~~~
josteink
Fair enough. Let me make an edit and prepend "in the tech-industry" to that
statement and I'll stand for it.

Apple has joined the rank of patent-trolls and turned what used to be a tech-
industry into a litiagative minefield where you need more lawyers than
engineers to do a business. They are the front-runners of software-patents and
they deserve all the flack they get for it.

I don't think there's any debating that patent-trolls are evil and that
supporting them are wrong.

~~~
Volpe
Did they turn it into this minefield? Or do they just play the 'evil' game
better than others.

I'm don't like to split things into 'Good' and 'Evil' (as they are inherently
subjective). But the patent system seems to be the problem here, and until it
is removed one has to work within it.

~~~
talmand
They are not the only ones turning it into a minefield, but they most
definitely participate in making it a deadly game to play. If they were using
their patents in a defensive way I would have a different attitude but it
seems to me they are rather aggressive in using their patents to go after
people they feel are a threat.

~~~
halostatue
Yet they're also stepping up to the plate to defend their platform developers
in the Lodsys dispute.

[http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/04/court-allows-apple-
to-i...](http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/04/court-allows-apple-to-intervene-
in-lodsys-lawsuit-against-ios-developers/)

As with most of life, this is not the black-and-white situation that people
make it out to be.

Samsung _clearly_ did everything they could to make a bunch of their products
seem like Apple products and increase customer confusion.

Apple _clearly_ got patents for things which seem to be fairly obvious or
which under better analysis would not have been granted. It's also easy for me
to say that something is obvious…five years after it became widely available
to the public, and seven years after most of us first saw similar stuff shown
in a TED video.

Gooterola (Moogle?) _clearly_ is abusing FRAND obligations on some of their
standards-essential patents. As far as I can tell, Samsung is trying to abuse
some of their FRAND standards-essential patents, too.

    
    
        Mercutio:
        I am hurt.
        A plague a' both your houses! I am sped.
        Is he gone and hath nothing?

~~~
icarus127

      Gooterola (Moogle?) clearly is abusing FRAND obligations 
      on some of their standards-essential patents. As far as I 
      can tell, Samsung is trying to abuse some of their FRAND   
      standards-essential patents, too.
    

This is probably true but looks a lot like of case of "when someone attacks
you reach for whatever is at hand". Samsung and Motorola clearly believe that
those patents are the best thing they've got to counter Apple's attacks.
Unfortunately it seems that because those patents are standards-essential
Apple's absurd patents have more legal power than patents that are actually
interesting.

~~~
halostatue
…except that when you introduce a patent that's standards-essential to a
standards body for use in that standard, you are making a legally binding
pledge _not_ to weaponize that patent and to make it available to everyone
under the same Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory rules.

Apple hasn't done that, except with some of the patents it has that are part
of H.264.

------
ekianjo
There's a serious lack of information in this post. No background, nothing. Is
it the same kind of patent claim as the one that Samsung faced in the US?

~~~
factorialboy
Sorry about that. That is a popular Indian general news website, doesn't focus
much on technology or legal news.

Here's the Reuters India link:
[http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/apple-samsung-
japan...](http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/apple-samsung-japan-
idINDEE87U02J20120831)

------
akent
Very light on details, anyone got more info?

~~~
gokhan
[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/01/technology/in-japan-a-
setb...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/01/technology/in-japan-a-setback-for-
apples-patent-fight.html)

~~~
akent
More text, yes, but not much more detail about the actual patents in question:
"an Apple patent on technology that synchronizes music and videos between
gadgets and servers."

~~~
X-Istence
This would mean it isn't the same patents as those that were before the jury
in the US ...

~~~
tharwan
I think this is exactly the case.

------
baq
apple wins in america. samsung wins in asia. coincidence?

~~~
fchollet
If anything it could be a sign that the US trial was flawed, because believe
me, the Japanese don't particularly like (or benefit from the success of)
Korean companies.

~~~
epo
Really? Is this because the same things were being tried in both courts? Or
because the Japanese are racist? Or perhaps because the Japanese don't
particularly like (or benefit from the success of) Apple?

If anything, your comment is nonsense.

~~~
option_greek
The GP comment makes sense. There is a long standing resentment between Korea
and Japan stemming from WWII excesses of Japanese army
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_under_Japanese_rule>)

~~~
mcpie
Not to mention they're competitors in most areas of trade... especially IT.

