
The intolerable rise of perfectionism - pmoriarty
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jul/17/my-brain-feels-like-its-been-punched-the-intolerable-rise-of-perfectionism
======
Raidion
I think the problem I have with perfectionism, is that in a fairly connected
world of 7+ billion people, the people that get "acclaim" are truly some of
the most talented/lucky/good people in the world.

You never see mediocrity anymore, everyone has curated Instagram and Facebook
feeds of their best moments. If you do see it, it's the process of something
like America's Got Talent where it's laughed at.

Dave Grohl of the Foo Fighters said it really well [0]. Everyone that we see
doing almost anything online is really really good at it, so people get
intimidated that they can't do what 8 year old prodigies are doing. There is
such a gap between good and great that people are afraid of taking the time to
make the jump since the other side feels so far away. It's ok to be bad at
things, it's ok if your art or passion doesn't change the world. It's ok if
you enjoy the journey and the destination isn't the top of the charts or a
world championship in whatever.

[0] [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/dave-
gro...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/dave-grohl-rants-
its-destroying-the-next-generation-of-musicians/article11746664/)

~~~
some_account
Solution: Stop watching TV and stop following celebrities and social media.
They call it TV programming for a reason.

Not everyone is curating profiles, not everyone cares what other people are
doing, not everybody wants to be told what to think from someone else.

But you will never know if you don't turn that shit off and start to do what
you want to do without fear.

------
xtf
I've seen "What Happens When A Night Owl Is Forced To Live Like An Early
Bird"[0] yesterday and wonder how it correlates with this.

It basically says that 27% of the population are night owls and are in an
evolutionary sense our natural night watch and when forced into a daytime
schedule, always tired.

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kZVbE_coSA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kZVbE_coSA)

~~~
TheAceOfHearts
Rather tangential to this, but I've always had trouble getting up early and
maintaining that schedule. A little over a month ago I changed my diet to
reduce carbs as much as possible, and I've never felt so alert and awake.
Waking up early went from a grueling task to something that just happens
naturally. I know this is just one anecdote, but I wonder if some of the
mentioned people might also benefit from trying different diets.

~~~
slededit
whenever someone brings up the fact a sizeable portion of the population is
forced into an unnatural sleep rythm; inevitably someone will chime in with a
"I forced myself with method X and now I'm normal".

It completely misses the underlying point.

~~~
naasking
I'm not sure it does. Their "natural" habits aren't necessarily all that
natural either. For all you know, a diet change really did correct an
underlying issue causing the strange habit.

~~~
slededit
We're talking about 1/5th of the population suffering needlessly. The comment
I replied to merely reinforces the stereotype that there is something wrong
with them - "If only you lived better you would get to sleep at a normal
time". On its own, its great they have improved their life. But in context its
disrespectful.

~~~
majewsky
If you're insulting a plausible opposing opinion as disrespectful, you should
be backing up your claim with facts. You suggested that people are "naturally"
night owls, the other side suggests that nightowlism may be caused by
lifestyle choices and that many night owls are unaware of this causality.
There is nothing disrespectful about either side of the argument, both are
just hypotheses at this point (and a bit of anecdata).

~~~
slededit
There is evidence of a genetic cause for night owlism:
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121116124551.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121116124551.htm)

Further nobody questions the legitimacy of "early risers" and blames it on
lifestyle. In fact most consider it a positive and something to aspire to.
When you go your whole life having to dispel the initial impression of
laziness due to your natural sleep rythmn it becomes personal. I'm fortunate
that I've come to a place in my career where I can simply live with my natural
rythmn, but most people don't get the chance.

~~~
naasking
> Further nobody questions the legitimacy of "early risers" and blames it on
> lifestyle.

Because being an early riser is adaptive. We're not at all well adapted to
operating at night given our sensory apparatus, we're quite well adapted to
operate in daylight.

Furthermore, humans aren't genetically predetermined creatures, it's entirely
possible to change virtually all of our behaviours and inclinations with the
right environmental changes.

Even if being a nightowl were adaptive at one point, that doesn't mean it's
adaptive _now_ , and a maladaptive behaviour needs correcting if you want to
function in modern society.

> When you go your whole life having to dispel the initial impression of
> laziness due to your natural sleep rythmn it becomes personal.

Don't go pushing your personal prejudice on a factual discussion. No one here
called "nightowls" lazy.

~~~
slededit
Its crazy in this day and age its considered OK to call perfectly healthy
people "maladapted" because they don't conform to societies view of a normal
sleep schedule. Treating people this way causes real damage to actual humans.

Second sleeps used to be very common with people getting useful work and
liesure done during the time between. Activity at night is normal.

~~~
naasking
> Its crazy in this day and age its considered OK to call perfectly healthy
> people "maladapted" because they don't conform to societies view of a normal
> sleep schedule.

"Maladapted" in this case literally means "poorly suited to functioning in
typical jobs". Society's normal sleep schedule is exactly what makes night
owls maladapted to most jobs.

Of course, you're incorrectly reading some sort of moral judgment in this
classification, as you have with many other posts. You should try to be a
little more impartial when discussing basic facts.

~~~
slededit
9-5 is an arbitrary restriction on a typical office job. The majority of us no
longer perform shift work on the factory floor which was the original impetus
for this societal norm.

You are recounting society as it exists today which is abnormal in a
historical context. I am speaking of a society that could exist. One where
1/5th the population is not needlessly forced through life exhausted and under
performing. Not only would productivity be higher, but we'd get more use out
of our otherwise vacant buildings at night. Rush hour would be greatly
diminished if not everyone had to arrive at work exactly the same time.

Flex hours are a simple and mainstream solution that more companies should
adopt. But it has to start with an appreciation that night owls are not
"defective" or as you say, "maladapted".

~~~
naasking
> 9-5 is an arbitrary restriction on a typical office job.

It doesn't matter if it's arbitrary, what matters is whether a person's habits
can easily conform or adapt to its environment. Those that do not, or that
cause other problems are maladaptive _by definition_.

> But it has to start with an appreciation that night owls are not "defective"
> or as you say, "maladapted".

Defective and maladaptive are not synonyms.

------
electrograv
This paragraph, which seems to summarize much of this article’s position,
seems quite dangerous:

 _> Perfectionism is a personality trait rather than a mental health
condition. There is no World Health Organization diagnosis code for
perfectionism and it is not listed in the American Psychiatric Association’s
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It can fly under the
radar and masquerade as the pursuit of high standards, yet it overlaps with a
plethora of disorders from eating to obsessive-compulsive disorder, anxiety,
body dysmorphia, depression and suicide._

Note how it simultaneously says “perfectionism is not a mental health
condition”, then proceeds to immediately insuinate it is effectively a mental
disorder. This continues throughout the rest of the article.

The domain of neurodiversity as a whole is far more complex than reducing the
whole of a phenomenon to such simplistic and IMO damagingly derogatory terms
as _“interolerable rise of perfectionism”_.

Despite the author’s attempt to interleave a few studies with personal
stories, it conveniently neglects to tell the stories of “happy
perfectionism”: There are many like myself, for whom pursuing this internal
motivation for perfectionism turns out to be _immensely intrinsically
rewarding_. In fact, I believe this intrinsic pleasure some (small percentage
of the population) take from striving for perfection to have played (and
continues to play) a _pivotal_ role in humanity’s rise in technological
advancement.

 _It is not the destination, but the journey_ (to asymptotically approach a
vision of perfection), that healthy perfectionists find so rewarding.
Certainly, pathological corruptions of perfectionism exist (for example, any
such case where you experience _distress or suffering_ for not _achieving_
infinite perfection, despite it being obviously unattainable) — but this is
true for all personality traits.

~~~
s-shellfish
Everything is a mental health condition these days.

Honestly I think the mental health care industry is getting nervous over how
complex, diverse and non-trivial it is to understand minds.

It's easy for the field to operate on the premise 'but these poor people, we
are trying to help them!'. It's at the least, a bit absurd to be hypercritical
over every little detail of thinking, acting, behaving, processing, etc and
consider that 'help'.

I agree with you that perfectionism doesn't have to be a bad thing. It seems
more that one has to be cautious with who one displays those characteristics
towards because it can easily provocate insecurity in others, unintentionally.
Which can be a totally reasonable reaction, life sometimes sucks and happens
and things one wants to be devoted to may have to be deprioritized.

But if you want to be a perfectionist and are in a place in life where you can
afford to devote yourself that much, then you shouldn't let the fact that
other people made different choices get to you to the point that it halts your
own ability to progress.

~~~
tsumnia
> It seems more that one has to be cautious with who one displays those
> characteristics towards because it can easily provocate insecurity in
> others, unintentionally.

This sentence seemed to irk me; because at what point does someone have to
police themselves to ensure they don't "hurt someone else's feelings"? My
generalization is a bit crass, but that's how this sentence came off.

~~~
watwut
I was taught that I should care about that and if I dont, I am lacking self co
trol and rude and that is wrong. And practically speaking, if you hurt peoples
feelings they will retaliate one way or the other or avoid you. Especially
insecure people.

Controlling what you say is seen as bad thing online, but it is a thing that
majority of people in real world do constantly and are expected to.

~~~
s-shellfish
I would be careful about the word 'retaliate'. People internalize information
differently. If you hurt someone's feelings, they may internalize that, try to
reason out exactly what the problem is, and then accidentally project those
feelings onto someone random because emotional and empathetic exhaustion is a
thing that can happen to anyone. The reason such individuals exist and do such
phenomena is because they don't want to hurt anyone.

That's not being insecure in the individual self. Victim mentality ascribes
intent. There isn't always intent. Just being human, and not perfect.

~~~
watwut
Point taken. There are many different reactions to being hurt and possible
backslash about me is just one of them.

I may also end up doing harm to hurt person, either because my hurt will
influence them to their detriment (they will internalize my angry outburst
etc) or because of how third parties will perceive them due to what I say.

I did not meant retaliation as purely bad act on the side of hurt person. It
may he just answering in kind. People who don't stand up to insults end up
being bullied. If I don't have to care about hurting their feelings, they
don't have to care about mine.

~~~
s-shellfish
There's a limit to what you can believe you have control over.

> If I don't have to care about hurting their feelings, they don't have to
> care about mine.

That's something you have to assume initially. The problem is it's only true
over time. It's something that may be true at the moment of interaction, or it
may be something that is true because of the interaction.

------
tw1010
I tend to become much better at things a lot quicker if I just ingest a lot of
the stuff (books, code, etc) and then spit out a mountain of it, instead of
obsessing over making each and every thing I produce perfect.

Perfect isn't even an unchanging state. The better you are, the higher your
standards become.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
I recall reading a study previously (I can't find it at the moment) on
creativity. The two groups were given two tasks in an art class. First group
was told they would be graded on the sheer volume of output, while the other
was told they would be graded on the most creative thing they could produce
(I'm leaving out a ton of detail, and I can't remember what kind of art class
it was).

The conclusion of the study was that the first group, who was just focused on
volume of output, actually produced _more_ creative works than the group
specifically focused on "creativity".

~~~
jamestanderson
You got it right but here's a link[1] with that original story and also some
commentary on how this all relates to software development.

[1] [https://blog.codinghorror.com/quantity-always-trumps-
quality...](https://blog.codinghorror.com/quantity-always-trumps-quality/)

------
pygy_
A perfectionist is someone with more exigence than talent.

By deeming yourself a perfectionist, you openly state that you do not meet you
own standards.

Resolution lies on either end, depending on how possible/practical it is to
improve a given skill.

~~~
JadeNB
> A perfectionist is someone with more exigence than talent.

My dictionary defines 'exigence' (which I had not encountered before) as "an
urgent need or demand", and I find that hard to parse. Is either of the parses
"… who is more demanding than talented" or (like "grasp exceeds reach") "…
whose demands exceed his or her talent" correct? If not, would you mind
clarifying?

~~~
pygy_
My bad, _" exigence"_ is a French word whose meaning isn't exactly identical
in English. To be _exigent_ means to have a high standard. The verb _"
exiger"_ means "to require". English adds an urgency dimension that doesn't
exist in French.

Many French words built on that template (direct latin root + -ent/-ence
suffix) can be used as is in English, but it is not always the case.

~~~
stochastic_monk
To make this point relevant, are you more familiar with French and thereby
translating an idea of yours in French to English with a not-quite-perfect
cognate?

Without such a connection, the reasoning for stating this is unclear to me.
Could you clarify?

~~~
pygy_
I'm a native French speaker, fluently thinking in English.

There's a vast pool of vocabulary that is common to both languages, from which
I draw words indiscriminately (Latin roots and the same formula to derive
verbs/nouns/adjectives, with minor variations for each langage (e.g. add
"-ate" for verbs in Englsih and "-er" in French)). Some of these are so-called
"false friends", with different meanings in both languages.

I have a spidey sense that works most of the time in the English => French
direction (e.g. "consistent"), less so in the other.

~~~
stochastic_monk
Thank you, I wasn’t quite sure.

As a native English speaker who has learned French, I’ve often run into “faux
amis”. Perhaps the most embarrassing was “préservatifs”, which I expected to
mean preservatives but actually meant condoms.

~~~
pygy_
Ooh, yes, that one must have been embarrassing indeed :-)

 _" Préservatif"_ is such a weird euphemism.

~~~
stochastic_monk
“Prophylactic” is no less bizarre.

~~~
JadeNB
> “Prophylactic” is no less bizarre.

Isn't it (less bizarre)? My dictionary gives the medical meaning of
prophylactic as "intended to prevent disease"; using it to refer to
contraception just requires a more generous conception of 'disease'.

By contrast, if 'préservatif' in French were translated to 'preservative' in
English, it would mean, again according to my dictionary, "a substance used to
preserve … against decay." I find it a bit more of a stretch to generalise
this to pregnancy.

On the other hand, maybe it is just my English-speaker-ness showing through
that I can think of pregnancy much more easily as a disease (it literally
causes dis-ease …) than as decay.

~~~
stochastic_monk
You’re right. I’d not realized that it was regarding preventing disease, not
simply a generic precautionary measure.

And while pregnancy may well be viewed as a disease or a cancer, after a
fashion, at least condoms protect from a wider range of affliction.

------
Koshkin
In my experience, perfectionism is a reaction to a lack of actual progress or
success. Kind of similar to forms of idealism or religious feelings that arise
as a result of being powerless in the face of circumstances.

~~~
cryoshon
you've made an eminently prescient comment here.

it explains why many scientists are self-denying and perfectionistic: failure
is the rule during experimentation, and progress is not guaranteed or even
knowable sometimes.

i think that eventually it gets inseparable from the person. the reaction
becomes a habit, and then it sticks.

------
maxxxxx
Seems perfectionism is a good way to get burned out eventually. I don't think
that level of intensity can be kept up long term.

~~~
billysielu
I cna tpye 300 wrods pre minute

------
j_b_s
Ira Glass:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2wLP0izeJE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2wLP0izeJE)

This guy is perfect.

~~~
selimthegrim
As long as you're not his dog or a potential victim of his dog.

~~~
milesokeefe
Context:

[https://www.petful.com/pet-health/ira-glass-dog-
piney/](https://www.petful.com/pet-health/ira-glass-dog-piney/)

------
carlmr
I've made a similar realization early on in my studies. If I learn a lot more
things than necessary, but only imperfectly I do much better in the same time
than someone who learned exactly what is necessary but perfectly. Because you
often make extra connections and discoveries when you go beyond what is
required.

This is one reason why I think we need a school reform where exams aren't
rated as much on perfectionism, but more on broad knowledge.

I.e. if you can only solve a part of the questions but more of the questions
then you can still receive a good grade. Basically make the tests longer and
more broad than what you expect and give 150% of the points. That way you can
either solve 2/3 like normal, or you solve more of the problems imperfectly
and get the same result. It allows for more learning styles.

This way you could probably cover much more knowledge in a shorter time frame.
Because a lot of the imperfect knowledge will get better over time eventually
when you learn knowledge that builds upon it.

------
yandrypozo
Rise of perfectionism? I'm actually noticing a decline on aiming for
perfection. I can't stop recommending this talk:
[https://www.ted.com/talks/jon_bowers_we_should_aim_for_perfe...](https://www.ted.com/talks/jon_bowers_we_should_aim_for_perfection_and_stop_fearing_failure)

------
laurex
This article reflects a view that "perfectionism" is the cause of anxiety,
depression, and social insecurity. It seems more likely that self-destructive
perfectionism (since positive perfectionism is framed here as well) is a
result of anxiety and social insecurity, not the other way around.

------
jhoechtl
While the title touched me, less did the article itself.

I thought it would be more about working conditions which at least for me and
with control and checks everywhere in place leaves less and less space for
humans to err, favouring perfectionists.

------
sequoia
Is anyone else struggling to feel sorry for these high achieving graduate
students because they, what, feel bad sometimes?

> ‘Even exercise doesn’t sound like a total escape for Tom Nicol: he is
> training to beat his dad’s personal best mile time.’

Oh wow, training to beat another runner's time. What pathos, what suffering!
Give me a break.

------
ruok0101
Maybe I've been working with too many millennials lately, but personally, I
wish more people I worked with were perfectionists! My subjective observation
is overall commitment to quality has generally decrease over the last decade
of my career.

I know I have OCD tendencies, and I've found that if I can harness it properly
(mostly by just being aware of when I am in a obsessive state) I can really
internalize the topic at hand and add the new knowledge/skill to my everyday
repertoire.

~~~
chapium
Are you sure its not Millennials but instead your expectations? Perhaps they
are at their desks wondering why you are so commited to low value details.

~~~
ruok0101
Yep, pretty sure its them :)

------
mgamache
"perfectionism" as it's used here seems like just optimizing your life around
a narrow set of criteria.

