
'Snoopers' charter' changes put forward - colinscape
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42195352
======
ben_w
Finally, some _good_ news. Nowhere near enough, and they were told about these
problems before making it law, and once they leave the EU they won’t even have
this level of oversight, but it’s better than nothing.

I know from trying and failing to convince two MPs that they absolutely do not
understand the danger they introduce by forcing the ISPs to have the ability
to snoop on users instead of banning ISPs from doing so.

~~~
Xophmeister
Did the MPs you contact at least get back to you, even with a form letter
toeing the party line? I wrote to my MP and tried to contact him through
Twitter and, at the time, made my letter public. I never got a response.

~~~
robin_reala
My MP would get back to me, but as she was a party whip the toeing of the
party line wasn’t just expected but mandatory. A mostly pointless exercise.

~~~
thisacctforreal
I don't think it's pointless.

When your job is "representing" a group of people, you'll take notice when a
pile of those people disagree with what you are doing.

We can't break the camel's back if we don't add straw.

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StudentStuff
This appears to not affect programs like Tempora operated by the GCHQ (the
British NSA), which intercepts all internet traffic in Britain. Instead, local
& federal police are the ones who will have their own mass spying programs
slightly impinged, with a new agency called the Office for Communications Data
Authorizations taking requests and vetting them.

Now, this could go one of two ways. Hopefully, OCDA will thoroughly vet each
request, rejecting most of what is currently rubber stamped and do limited
interception of specific citizens connections for short durations.

Alternatively, this could become another rubber stamp FISA kangaroo court,
where the OCDA doesn't have the manpower, tooling nor the inclination to do
much more than sign nearly every interception request form.

I'm hoping for the former, but betting on the latter. Despite that, Brits are
still having their data stolen by the GCHQ.

~~~
stupidcar
The historical problem in the UK has been that surveillance powers that were
rushed through parliament to tackle "terrorism" have ended up being made
available to every single branch of government. And 99.9% of the time they're
used for petty, local government issues, like collecting council taxes or
speeding fines, often by people without any law enforcement training at all.

Even if the OCDA ends up rubber stamping requests from the police, it'd be a
huge improvement on the complete free-for-all there has been in the past. If
they at least reject requests from a guy in the council refuse collection
department who wants to spy on his ex-wife, then that'll be an improvement.

~~~
Chriky
The vast majority of RIPA applications are made by Police, not local councils.

~~~
CraigJPerry
Where is that information available? AFAICT local authority requests are via
JPs in local courts and no centralised numbers exist?

~~~
Chriky
They are in the OSC's annual report, for example. [1]

Councils also sometimes respond to FOI requests, although they don't have to.
e.g. over a three year period this council [2] made 11 requests for Call Data
Records (who somebody phone) and 29 applications for in-person surveillance
(checking people who claim to be unemployed are actually unemployed).

In 2015-2016 (the most recent OSC I can find) there were, for example, 9147
applications for Directed Surveillance of which a MAXIMUM 8.5% were possibly
by local councils.

Do you have any evidence that suggests, it is, in fact, 99.9% from local
councils?

[1] [https://osc.independent.gov.uk/wp-
content/uploads/2014/09/An...](https://osc.independent.gov.uk/wp-
content/uploads/2014/09/Annual-Report-of-the-Chief-Surveillance-Commissioner-
for-2013-2014-laid-4-September-2014.pdf)

[2]
[https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/use_of_the_regulation...](https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/use_of_the_regulation_of_investi_9)

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jamiethompson
One of the many reasons we should remain within the EU. Time and time again EU
law has stopped our government in its tracks or forced it to change direction
on overreaching or just plain stupid policy like this.

~~~
PeachPlum
Really? ..... Really?

I ... you want an external actor, over which you have no control, to have
judicial power over your government, because _right now_ the decisions go the
way _you_ want them to?

~~~
DanBC
> to have judicial power over your government, because right now the decisions
> go the way you want them to?

Very few[1] cases that go to ECHR from the UK are sucessful, because ECHR sees
the UK as strongly protective of the human rights of its citizens. If the UK
stops being protective of my human rights I absolutely want an external actor
to have some control. Why wouldn't I?

[1] [https://fullfact.org/law/uks-record-human-rights-
cases/](https://fullfact.org/law/uks-record-human-rights-cases/)

~~~
bjelkeman-again
It is good to note that Brexit isn’t automatically an exit from European Court
of Human Rights, if I read this correctly. These are separate institutions.

[http://www.e-ir.info/2017/07/27/implications-of-brexit-
for-t...](http://www.e-ir.info/2017/07/27/implications-of-brexit-for-the-
european-convention-on-human-rights/)

~~~
frobozz
That's true, but the current PM has long been opposed to the ECHR. Even when
apparently in favour of the EU.

With the overpowered repeal bill, she can use Brexit to get us out of anything
with 'E' in the name, without bothering to put it to parliament.

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pjc50
Meanwhile there is a miserable little controversy running over Damien Green
having porn on his Westminster PC, supported by Nadine Dorries saying "you
can't prove it was him we all share passwords with our interns."

Nobody in government understands information security.

~~~
StavrosK
What's wrong with porn?

~~~
pbhjpbhj
The issue IIRC is [extended] use of work computer, during work time, for porn.
That would get you sacked from most corporate jobs; it seems being an MP
shouldn't be an automatic pass from such scrutiny.

~~~
acqq
How about playing games while being paid to legislate?

[http://zeus-origin.snopes.com/photos/politics/solitaire.asp](http://zeus-
origin.snopes.com/photos/politics/solitaire.asp)

------
ianopolous
In related news, GCHQ are still trying to wriggle out of oversight:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15842969](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15842969)

~~~
bjelkeman-again
I am constantly surprised how I appear to live in the same society as the
people suggesting these clearly undemocratic efforts to sidestep the
democratic oversight. But, they think it is ok and I think it really isn’t, at
all. I am surprised our world views differ that much.

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Sephr
None of this matters as long as Technical Capability Notices are still part of
snoopers' charter. TCNs are basically National Security Letters with _even
less accountability and limitations_. It's extremely ripe for abuse.

If you create a secure communication platform startup in the UK, you will
receive a TCN and you will be forced to subvert your platform for government
data collection. You can't tell anyone about the TCN and you have no recourse
other than going to prison for failure to comply. At least in the US when you
receive an NSL you can talk to a lawyer to potentially contest an unreasonable
or unlawful order.

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stctgion
I just totally dispair when it comes to this. I feel powerless to stop my
country becoming the distopia imagined in V for Vendetta. Both main parties
are supporting legislation beyond the wildest dreams of 20th century despots..

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b6
I have no way of directly knowing anything about situations like these. But I
suspect that no matter what they say, they're collecting the data. I don't
want to hear about court rulings, I want to hear that their hardware has been
removed from the telco rooms, and that facilities like Bluffdale have been
dismantled. I feel that there is quite a bit of theater going on where the
various surveillance monsters acknowledge getting caught and act as if they
got spanked and reigned in, when in fact they're just getting bigger and more
capable every day.

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fraa-orolo
To recap: the problems are that data is accessed without independent
permission, and data is collected for reasons other than serious crime.

So the solution is to create a government body to rubberstamp access requests,
and reclassify more crimes as serious?

