
Epic direct payment on mobile - bdz
https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/the-fortnite-mega-drop-permanent-discounts-up-to-20-percent
======
theli0nheart
This puts Apple in a very tough spot. Last week, Tim Cook was questioned in an
antitrust hearing re: Apple's anticompetitive practices (along with Jeff
Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, and Sundar Pichai). The spotlight is already pointing
right at them, so any move they make here is going to be noticed by lawmakers.

If they remove Fortnite from the App Store, Apple will probably be seen as the
bad guy. After all, Epic is not taking anything off the top here; they make
the same amount of money whether consumers choose to purchase through the App
Store or through Epic's direct payment system.

If they keep Fortnite on the App Store, they're going to need to make a rule
change to allow alternative payment methods within apps. One of Apple's main
defenses during antitrust hearings was that App Review applies rules fairly
and consistently. If they don't change the rules, that argument falls dead in
the water.

Epic leadership knows that this is going to cause a firestorm. I'm happy that
a large company with market power decided this was the right time to do this.
I doubt Apple and Epic worked together on this; there's no way that this
doesn't completely embarrass Apple and its App Store policies.

It will be exciting to see how this plays out, but my bet is that this is
going to lead to a huge win for Apple developers.

~~~
gutnor
I'm scared of that though. Although on one end I would like to buy my kindle
books straight from the app and play xcloud games, I'm thinking of the dodgier
companies.

Right now I have little to worry about when I leave my kid playing a game, all
the payment need to go through Apple or at least the offending app will not
stay up for too long.

I want Apple to be forced to come up with a fairer solution (eg: same api, but
different payment provider) rather than being strong-armed into getting rid of
the current protection from dodgy apps abusing dark ux pattern.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
All Apple has to do to fix this is allow sideloading. They don't need to
change the App Store's rules—they can make them more stringent, actually—and
you can set up your child's phone to block non-App-Store installations. Heck,
Epic would probably cave and accept the cost to keep Fortnite in the App
Store; they tried to go around Google Play, and it seemingly didn't work out.

~~~
dogma1138
The main reason I use an iPhone is that it doesn’t allow side loading out side
of development applications and has a curated closed store.

I want an ecosystem that works and I can rely on including knowing that little
to no one can side load a malicious application onto the device.

I’m also very well aware of the fact that while Apple scalps developers it’s
also the reason why my devices get security updates for 6 years while Google
can’t provide updates after 2.

~~~
aweb
Sorry but I'm not sure you understand how sideloading works on Android. You
have to enable it explicitly for any app you want to sideload from (eg. your
browser for a downloaded app, or an alternative app store like F-Droid).
Afterwards, every app installation still needs to be manually approved and
thus cannot be done hidden in the background. Seems pretty safe to me while
still allowing more freedom to power users.

~~~
danudey
...and then a ton of apps decide "screw the app store, I'm going solo!" and
people start enabling sideloading so they can try those apps, then sideloading
becomes normalized and malware starts to spread without Apple having the
ability to prevent it. Users who have issues with apps start hitting up
Apple's support lines, and they start getting pissed off when Apple says
"Sorry we can't help you, go talk to the developer. Not that we know who they
are, and maybe you actually don't either, but either way you're on your own."

Plus, developers lose access to a lot of Apple's functionality, like the fact
that XCode can upload LLVM bytecode so that Apple can re-optimize through new
or updated LLVM backends to deliver optimized versions for new platforms, etc.

Suddenly, all the goodness that's "baked in" to the iPhone experience is gone,
and the whole system starts looking like an inconsistent mess compared to the
way it was before.

I wonder if some kind of hybrid approach would work; for example, a workflow
like this:

1\. Developers develop locally as usual 2\. Developers upload to Apple via
XCode as usual 3\. Apple does its standard automated checks (private APIs,
etc) 4\. The developer can file for that app to be held "off the store"; this
is rejected by Apple for some reasons (like private API usage, malware, etc.)
but generally approved. Apps which do this likely lose access to some system
APIs (e.g. iCloud storage, IAP) but it's a tradeoff. 5\. The developer can now
get an App Store link which they can give to users to find their app on the
store. This is the only way to find the app; it doesn't appear in lists,
search, "top paid", features, or anything of the sort. 6\. Users get an app
that isn't (overtly) malicious and won't definitely break in future OS
updates, developers get the infrastructure benefits and automatic updates,
Apple can wash their hands of any downstream issues because they know for
certain that the user arrived via the developer and can make that clear to the
user ("if you have problems, go talk to them. If they're misbehaving, come
talk to us.")

This would make the value proposition for most developers pretty clear, but
for huge entities like Epic or Microsoft, they can just bypass the system
because people can come to them directly.

~~~
seszett
Is what you're describing common on Android though? Among the Android users I
know, nobody seems to ever have installed an app outside of Google Play, and
in my case there are only a handful of apps that I have installed outside of
Google Play or F-Droid, and they are alpha quality FOSS apps that were only
distributed from GitHub.

It's not clear to me that what you're describing is actually a problem that
happens.

~~~
bentcorner
This isn't a problem on Android, at least from what I can see. IMO at the
small scale the benefits of the play store (payment processing,
discoverability, bandwidth, hosting) outweigh anything you could gain by
offering your apk for direct download somewhere else.

Plus, even if you try to deploy malware you still need to get through the
regular permission dialogs and other bits of Android security. I have no idea
how easy/hard this is but I would be surprised if iOS performs substantially
worse here.

------
ary
My guess is that this is a gambit to force Apple’s hand during a time when
there is the most intense antitrust pressure over the App Store since it’s
launch. If Apple cracks down then it’s just more fuel for the antitrust fire,
and potentially evidence in court. If they allow it then it’s precedent that
others can use to employ the same tactic. Either way it seems to me Epic is
taking a calculated risk to induce change.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Also, the legal standard in the US is laser-focused on whether consumer prices
have gone up as a result of a company's practices.

What better demonstration could Epic possibly create of how the App Store
leads to price increases?

~~~
jsnell
Except that Epic is using the cheaper prices on consoles, where the platform
owner is taking a 30% cut. Clearly Epic's pricing isn't actually driven by the
app store costs on mobile platforms.

~~~
gamblor956
Epic doesn't pay Sony and MS 30% for console purchases, as both companies
negotiate arrangements with big studios that lowers the rate.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Still, it does create a bit of a contradiction. We don't know what Sony and
Microsoft charge, but we can reasonably assume it isn't zero, and it's also
probably more than whatever Epic pays for their internal payment processing.

Epic could still turn around and say "well, the price would be even _lower_ if
not for Sony and Microsoft," but I'm not sure how much they want to piss off
the console manufacturers, who—all things considered—probably have more power
as far as Epic is concerned.

The other elephant in the room, IMO, is that V-Bucks don't actually cost Epic
anything. They're just bits, and Epic could set the price to whatever they
want without much consequence.

More than anything else, I see Epic's stunt as a wake-up call. It doesn't
quite stand up under scrutiny—but, once you've scrutinized the situation, you
can also find better demonstrations of the problem, such as Spotify.

~~~
meheleventyone
AFAIK Sweeney isn’t against stores taking a cut he just sees the 30% as
egregious.

V-Bucks whilst costing nothing to create are exchanged for things that did
cost money to create and as a means to fund the existence of the game itself.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
> V-Bucks whilst costing nothing to create are exchanged for things that did
> cost money to create and as a means to fund the existence of the game
> itself.

Right, but the only scarcity of the "good" is that which Epic creates. If more
people have V-Bucks, then current skins are less exclusive and become less
valuable. I don't think the cost of V-Bucks has an impact on consumer buying
power, except in the most pedantic sense.

I don't mean to imply that The Emperor Has No Clothes; the less revenue Epic
gives to Apple, the more revenue Epic has to improve Fortnite for their
customers. Rather, I think this all speaks to the paucity of the US's current
antitrust standard. As long as Facebook is "free", they can be as anti-
competitive as they like, and prices will not increase. But consumers pay in
other ways—with their data, with their eyeballs, and by missing out on
products that never had the chance to exist.

------
epaga
My money is on Apple cracking down hard on this. It looks clearly as if Epic
remotely activated this direct payment option, thereby bypassing Apple's App
Review.

Apple will not take kindly to this. Best case scenario for Epic (and Fortnite
players): they invite Sweeney in for some hard negotiations. Worst case:
Fortnite ends up getting removed from iOS for this.

~~~
coldcode
Pull it is exactly what I would do. Apple gets a cut of the paid apps, but $0
from free apps who show ads. Take away getting a cut from the paid apps then
free apps suddenly cost the developers money—no more free apps.

Imagine going to Walmart and telling them what you want them to give you all
the revenue. Walmart will tell you exactly what they want to pay you, or you
can leave.

Maybe 30% is too much, but 0% is a terrible idea.

In the old days before the web I had to pay up to 70% for distribution for my
apps. If I was lucky I might get my cut 3-6 months later, plus I had to pay
for the packaging and shipping to the warehouse and take it back if they
didn't sell enough. 30% seems like a bargain.

~~~
krisgee
My god, Apple requiring a price for apps would be best thing that's happened
to the mobile environment in AGES.

I'm a mobile game dev and I would sacrifice a child to go back to the days
when people would pay 0.99 for a game.

~~~
askl56
Surely all free games currently would just be $0.01?

~~~
GeneralTspoon
On Apple, the minimum price for anything is $0.99.

You can't set arbitrary prices - only price bands.

------
sawaruna
>Does a new payment method on mobile mean purchases there are less safe?

>No. Thousands of apps on the App Store approved by Apple accept direct
payments, including commonly used apps like Amazon, Grubhub, Nike SNKRS, Best
Buy, DoorDash, Fandango, McDonalds, Uber, Lyft, and StubHub. We think all
developers should be free to support direct payments in all apps. [0]

All of these services provide something physical. You can't buy Kindle Books,
for example, on Amazon's app on iOS. This a bit disingenuous.

>We think all developers should be free to support direct payments in all
apps.

Does this mean Epic will start allowing users of the Epic Games Store on PC to
directly pay game developers and bypass the EGS cut?

[0] [https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/fortnite-mega-drop-
faq](https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/fortnite-mega-drop-faq)

~~~
013a
> Does this mean Epic will start allowing users of the Epic Games Store on PC
> to directly pay game developers and bypass the EGS cut?

If you follow Tim Sweeney and Epic's history surrounding "app store cuts",
you'd know that they've always stood on the side of developers. The EGS stands
among the lowest app store cuts of any marketplace, at 12%, and Tim has become
visibly angry during public appearances concerning Apple, Google, etc and
their 30% cut.

Additionally, we're talking about a platform that disallows any alternative
installation and distribution mechanisms. The PC ecosystem is vibrant, unlike
the forced one-app-store on iOS and the defacto-one-app-store on Android. If a
developer wants to control their cut on Windows, they can sell via their own
site, or itch.io (which allows developers to select what percentage itch.io
receives), or Steam and their 30% cut, or wherever they'd like.

~~~
gilrain
"Is what's good for the (Apple) goose good for the (Epic Games Store) gander?"

"No, but we'll screw you for less than Steam."

12% may be less than 30%, but it's still the same business practice that
they're decrying when it's applied to them. That's hypocrisy.

~~~
013a
What business practice is that? Providing hosting, distribution, payment
processing, and marketing to an audience of millions of customers, then asking
for some amount of revenue in return?

The core issues at play with Apple have always been: (1) there's no
competition, and (2) 30% is too high. The EGS makes strides in fixing both of
these issues: Game developers are not forced to release on EGS, as there are a
dozen competitors on Windows, and the revenue share is now 12%. Epic does sign
exclusivity deals with third-parties, which often have multi-million dollar
values to them (they paid ~$10M to Remedy for one-year exclusive rights to
Control); again, while we can argue about the negative impact this has on
consumers, its very positive for developers.

------
rsweeney21
Epic is declaring war on app store fees and other monopolistic app store
practices. Tim Sweeney (no relation) has been a very vocal opponent of the app
store practices of Apple and Google. He views them as monopolistic and anti-
competitive.

[https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/128961139770219724...](https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1289611397702197248)

[https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/128922755043103129...](https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1289227550431031296)

[https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/128852123070273945...](https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1288521230702739457)

My inside sources tell me that this move is intended to start a legal battle
with Apple and Google.

I really love Epic.

------
cloudking
Maybe the Apple cut is too high, but I don't think it's unreasonable for them
to take some cut. They are providing the distribution platform to get your app
to millions of users, it's not free for them to provide that service. They
have their own server, bandwidth and employee costs too.

~~~
lacker
They forbid you from using any other distribution mechanism on their device,
though. The only reason Apple has to pay for App Store overhead for every
single app is because Apple mandated it that way.

~~~
jaegerpicker
It's THEIR platform, they built it, they own it, and there are more popular
alternatives. Don't like Apples App Store buy an Android. Don't like Apple's
App Store build an app for Android, Web, Console, or PC. No one is forced to
make games for Apple. If I build a store and sell goods out of it, I set the
terms, no one has the right to walk into that store and tell me I can't take a
cut of the profits. Just because the platform is successful doesn't mean you
HAVE to have access to it at all or especially on the terms you want. I don't
like that I can't just submit a game to the switch store or that they get a
cut, no one is claiming it's a monopoly. There is literally no difference
other then Apple has been very successful at it.

~~~
ardit33
You seem young and naive....

For many, their iOS device (iPad or iPhone) is their primary computing
device.... it is not like a PS4, which is mainly for games.

Back in the 90's If Microsoft didn't get 'checked' with a threat to be broken
up, we would have ended up with Pay MSFT 30% tax on every software you
installed and purchased.

It it time to 'check' both Apple and Google on their practices... In this
case, Google at least allows some sideloading, while apple doesn't at all...

So, I expect Apple is going to be the losing end of the history... but as long
as they can keep doing it, and make profits out of it, they will be doing.

~~~
jaegerpicker
You seem condescending and annoying....

I was alive and working during the 90's and a massive linux/freebsd user then.
What Microsoft was doing, forcing the hardware manufacturers to install
windows or lose their business - forcing the bundling of internet explorer, is
absolutely and completely different than what Apple is doing. It's their
platform, the are not forcing any one to do anything.

~~~
UhDev
The way you describe it here actually makes them sound pretty similar. Isn't
Windows Microsoft's platform?

------
stdgy
Ballsy, I love it. Hopefully it can be used as evidence in any antitrust
actions against Apple, in the US or abroad. It's clear that Apple's behavior
negatively impacts consumer pricing.

------
virtue3
I love how they are "passing the savings down to us" from a non existing
digital item that they set the price of.

Ugh.

Anyway, this should be absolutely fascinating to watch how the antitrust cases
against the app stores go!

~~~
tadzik_
> a non existing digital item

That's a weird thing to read in a place populated by software people.

~~~
nsilvestri
I'm sure you don't have to look too far to find someone who believes all
software should be free (and open source).

~~~
saagarjha
Sure, but that doesn't mean this is how all software should be…

------
stephc_int13
Tim Cook vs Tim Sweeney, this is a serious round, with possible big
implications for many developers and companies.

In the end, both Epic and Apple are big corporations that should not be
blindly trusted, but my money is on Sweeney, I have greater faith in the uber-
nerd vs the perfect production manager.

~~~
giarc
>I have greater faith in the uber-nerd vs the perfect production manager.

I have greater faith in the company with over $200 billion cash on hand, that
can throw a ton of money at a long drawn out court battle.

------
devit
Finally someone stands up to the monopolists!

~~~
superkuh
Right, another monopolist trying to fill their garden. Epic is literally
buying the companies behind long established games, removing game support for
alternative OSes, and eventually only allowing access from "the epic store".

No matter who wins between Epic and Apple human people lose. They're both
walled garden monopolists.

~~~
qppo
To be fair to Epic, they are/were offering developers a better deal than
Steam. And they've done far more for gaming over the past decade than Valve,
which hasn't been able to successfully innovate in the last two.

~~~
nottorp
However, they're not offering ME a better deal.

Let's see:

\- games aren't cheaper on the Epic store, in spite of the allegedly smaller
cut the store is supposed to take

\- they're Windows only (and here comes the China reference, they only know
about Windows in there)

\- their store still doesn't have a shopping cart (i may not be current on
this)... reeks of incompetence? Can you trust them with your credit card info?

\- they have bribed developers to give them exclusivity, preventing me to get
the games on the store of my choice.

\- btw the above means Steam but also GoG. You people calling out Steam for
being a monopoly, how many titles have you bought on GoG?

\- Epic's only meaningful contribution to gaming since Unreal II is... a free
to play arena shooter? Is that even a game? I can't afford free to play games,
sorry.

Do you really think that if the Epic Store somehow manages to "win", it will
be better for us _customers_ in any way?

It's sad that the only entity fighting Apple's monopoly is... another would be
monopolist.

~~~
MattRix
Games aren't cheaper because Valve doesn't allow them to be cheaper on other
storefronts, it's part of the agreement you sign with them to be on Steam.

Windows only is fine. From a purely pragmatic point of view, other platforms
are such a small fraction of the gaming market, it really doesn't make sense
to support them. Companies have tried supporting OSX and Linux for years
(decades?) now, but there just aren't enough players to justify it (much less
than 5%).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Epic paying developers for exclusivity.
There is fundamentally nothing different about that than Valve selling their
own first-party game exclusively on their own store (Half-life, Portal, DOTA,
etc).

If you don't know about Epic's contributions to gaming, then you're just out
of touch. Fortnite is a huge deal, but there's also stuff like Gears of War,
and of course Unreal Engine 4 itself.

I absolutely do think if Epic wins, it will be better both for consumers and
game developers like myself. I don't think you understand the mindset of Tim
Sweeney if you think he is super monopolist.

~~~
nottorp
> Games aren't cheaper because Valve doesn't allow them to be cheaper on other
> storefronts, it's part of the agreement you sign with them to be on Steam.

Hmm why isn't Epic the games developer suing Valve for that?

------
SuperTachyon
Epic is conveying that the 30% cut on App Store was raising the prices. But
Xbox and PlayStation has the same cut, yet Epic has lower pricing on these
platforms.

~~~
uncoder0
Are you sure Epic hasn't negotiated some sort of deal with Xbox and
playstation to lower the cut to a more reasonable rate given their volume of
transactions.

~~~
SuperTachyon
That I’m not sure. Do you have any sources?

~~~
uncoder0
To clarify, I work in the gaming industry and I've heard rumors of large
publishers negotiating better terms when they get to a certain magical number
of transactions/gross rev. I'm not sure I've read any reporting on it. The
sources I heard this from would have been in a position to know but, I can't
really point to any hard data. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were true.
I've heard it can be as low as 10-15% but again I don't have any evidence on
that.

------
huac
How are they justifying this? A linked blog post goes into more detail:
[https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/announcing-
epi...](https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/announcing-epic-direct-
payment-on-mobile;) but it seems like they are extending the payment
processing tools which they built for web to mobile. There are loopholes but
not clear which one they're claiming to use (if any).

~~~
edm0nd
Fixed URL: [https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/announcing-
epi...](https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/announcing-epic-direct-
payment-on-mobile)

The ; at the end of yours breaks it

------
andjd
It looks like Apple has already pulled fortnite from the app store

~~~
rhencke
Source?

~~~
teej
[https://mobile.twitter.com/markgurman/status/129398406972263...](https://mobile.twitter.com/markgurman/status/1293984069722636288)

Their app store link doesn't work
[https://apps.apple.com/us/app/fortnite/id1261357853](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/fortnite/id1261357853)

------
dingdongding
Yeah I wonder they did a backroom deal with Apple and Google. These backroom
deals that Apple/Google are doing is so anti competitive for small app
developers and they keep on stressing that they are helping millions of
developers. If this is not unfair I don't know what is.

~~~
krisgee
Even if they did this is now an argument that the app store review process is
not "fairly applied" which will be noticed in the current environment.

------
bdz
Curious how this will play out because they explicitly bypass both Google and
Apple

~~~
riq_
From the announcement, V-Bucks are 20% cheaper (... when purchased from
epicstore I guess...).

So, you use your browser, login to epicstore with your account, purchase
v-bucks at 20% discount and you use those v-bucks in all Epic Games regardless
the platform.

~~~
Hamuko
It's not an issue that [insert digital good here] is cheaper on the seller's
website than in the Apple App Store. What Apple prohibits you from is telling
your client that the [insert digital good here] is available for purchase
somewhere else or that there's a special kind of a markup on the App Store
option.

~~~
hugey010
I don't think that's entirely true. Apps can use SMS or open the OS browser to
accept payments and not be in direct violation of the guidelines.

~~~
Hamuko
> _Apps can use SMS or open the OS browser to accept payments and not be in
> direct violation of the guidelines._

Which apps are allowed to open the browser for payments? I don't think even
Netflix isn't allowed to do it. They just say "You can't make an account in
the app" (paraphrasing) on the sign in page.

~~~
hugey010
I'm under the impression anything done outside the app doesn't really fall
under App Review territory. Embedding a UIWebView is considered in-app, and an
embedded SFSafariViewController has slightly different rules.

------
trollied
Fortnite has been removed from the App Store as a result.

Things are about to get interesting.

------
blauditore
Meanwhile, other apps get banned for having donation buttons.

------
dangoor
If you squint, this is kind of like the deal that Apple made with Amazon so
that you can use your card-on-file with Amazon to rent videos via Prime Video:
[https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/01/apple-agreement-with-
amazon-...](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/01/apple-agreement-with-amazon-lets-
you-rent-movies-through-prime-video.html)

------
elwell
> PERMANENT DISCOUNTS

That's a bold promise if Apple shuts the practice down. Will need to go back
on the promised permanency or take the loss.

~~~
mehlmao
It's their own virtual currency they're selling, which can only be used in a
store they control. I wouldn't be surprised if they raise the prices of items
sometime in the future.

Also, if a significant amount of purchase volume comes from iOS users, this
could save them money.

------
LegitShady
Tencent will pay to fight this in court forever. Sad to be hoping for
epic/tencent to succeed but apples policies are worse.

------
skizm
Epic: Apple employs anti-competitive, anti-consumer practices, and we're
fighting against that!

Also Epic: We'll be locking as many games as we can afford behind Epic Store
exclusive contracts since our store isn't good enough to compete with Steam on
functionality or price.

~~~
colinmhayes
Epic isn't forcing developers to put their game on the Epic store.

------
chriswwweb
EDIT: interesting, I just found this tweet
([https://twitter.com/ballmatthew/status/1293903865557979136](https://twitter.com/ballmatthew/status/1293903865557979136))
that mentions other companies like McDonalds and Starbucks are also exempt

Indeed this is huge, well it will be huge if the app is still in the store by
tomorrow ... I wonder what apple will do? I wonder if apple greenlighted this?
If they didn’t get this greenlighted, I wonder how they bypassed the Apples
app review process (in app updates instead of a store update?)?

I can’t wait to see how all of this unfolds, years ago I was part of a team
that built a music app that got refused in the app store because we had
included payments via a credit card processor, bypassing the 30% apple tax and
today I’m in the process of building another app which is impacted by this … I
also imagine companies like spotify are following this very closely

~~~
input_sh
There's a difference between offering physical goods (like McDonalds and
Starbucks) vs. digital goods. Both Google and Apple don't allow circumventing
their payment mechanism for anything digital (e-books, music, etc.), while
showing some lenience for physical ones.

------
hugey010
Per the App Store Review guidelines: [https://developer.apple.com/app-
store/review/guidelines/#una...](https://developer.apple.com/app-
store/review/guidelines/#unacceptable) If payment is taken IN the app, not
using Apple Pay, and not to an approved non-profit, it's in direct violation
and should be removed.

I've had to update multiple apps that took donations, in order to pay for
development work, and Apple absolutely won't let that fly anymore. On Apple's
behalf, this unacceptable, illegal, and infuriating. I might consider joining
a class-action lawsuit like this one:
[https://www.hbsslaw.com/uploads/case_downloads/apple-
dev/201...](https://www.hbsslaw.com/uploads/case_downloads/apple-
dev/2019-06-04-complaint-apple-developers.pdf)

~~~
zacwest
Unless you're Amazon, in which case you're absolutely allowed to sell digital
goods (e.g. movies, TV shows) without using In-App Purchases. The rules are
unfairly applied.

~~~
rashkov
Are you sure about that? I just checked and I was not able to buy digital
goods using the amazon app.

------
gregoriol
This looks great for the future, balsy for sure, but like Hey did. Change is
on the way!

------
alkonaut
If fortnite had an alternative payment method that wasn't exposed in the iOS
app (e.g. only on the web, but you would buy credits that you could use in the
app) then I don't see how Apple would have a leg to stand on.

------
vini
Epic already had a lawsuit ready for this:

[https://twitter.com/FortniteGame/status/1293994211621167105](https://twitter.com/FortniteGame/status/1293994211621167105)

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minimaxir
The Apple/antitrust angle has been covered, but this Direct payment bypass
also affects Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, and Google. Won't they take issue with
it as well?

~~~
asdfasgasdgasdg
Apparently the cuts that Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo take are already
acceptable to Epic. The announcement says that those users are getting the
discount automatically without taking any action.

 _Starting today, any V-Bucks or real-money offers you purchase on PlayStation
4, Xbox One, Nintendo Switch, PC, and Mac are now discounted by up to 20%. You
don’t need to do anything!_

~~~
013a
Additionally, there's two lines in the article:

> If Apple or Google lower their fees on payments in the future, Epic will
> pass along the savings to you.

and

> Do you play Fortnite on Android, but don’t purchase through Google Play? No
> problem! You’ll find that V-Bucks and real-money offers are now discounted
> by up to 20% through the Epic Games app at epicgames.com and the Samsung
> Galaxy Store.

Both of which strongly hint to the idea that its specifically the rates the
Play/App Store charge at issue here, and they likely received discounted rates
on competing storefronts by default.

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gok
Curious what Epic would do if game developers started offering an option in
their games to just not pay the 5% Unreal Engine tax and passed the savings
onto consumers.

~~~
deagle50
1\. Big gulf between 5% and 30% 2\. Epic doesn't own your customers 3\. You
don't have to use Unreal Engine.

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arberx
And Fortnite just got removed from the App Store.

~~~
EE84M3i
[https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21366438/apple-
fortnite-i...](https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21366438/apple-fortnite-ios-
app-store-violations-epic-payments)

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binthere
If I'm a small developer, how can I process payments directly without having
to pay the fee to another provider?

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irjustin
Isn't the cut 70% for inapp purchases? I'm all for this, but there seems to be
a 10% gap?

~~~
mjamesaustin
Right, the implication to me is that Epic believes a 10% fee is reasonable
since they say on their website they'll lower prices if Apple lowers its fees.

So if Apple reduced fees to 10%, the price to pay with Apple would be the same
as it is through Epic direct pay. In other words, Epic doesn't expect a 0%
fee.

~~~
kevingadd
This lines up well with their model for the Epic Games Store on PC - Epic
keeps 12% and for games based on Unreal Engine they waive royalties when the
copy is sold through their store.

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orliesaurus
I wonder if the only reason for having "both" payment systems in place, is
some kind of unwritten rule (or secret handshake between Epic Games and their
Apple account manager of some sorts) that will allow them to keep Fortnite on
the app-store!

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bassman9000
Reminder: Tencent owns 40% of Epic.

[https://www.pcgamer.com/every-game-company-that-tencent-
has-...](https://www.pcgamer.com/every-game-company-that-tencent-has-invested-
in/)

Their dumping power can be almost limitless.

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CreepGin
Is it against Apple terms to be offering multiple payment methods?

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KingOfCoders
Couldnt the title be "Epic Direct Payment" on Mobile?

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deagle50
Shots fired. Optimal time to strike right after the hearings.

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Simulacra
Apple ain’t gonna like this!

