

The Problem With TL;DR - endtwist
http://notes.unwieldy.net/post/34849096021/the-problem-with-tl-dr

======
devindotcom
TS;DS Too short; didn't satisfy.

Seriously, though. I think people don't give enough space to ideas. Not that
everything needs a thousand or ten thousand words, but if we're going to talk
about a major thing like "how the nature of news consumption is changing," why
not really think it through, ask other people for their opinion, present
multiple viewpoints, make references and so on? Like this post, there are some
ideas, but they're just sort of thrown on the table like a handful of notes on
napkins.

The reflection of TL;DR (not the opposite, above) is TH;DW - too hard, didn't
write. It takes time and effort to flesh out and explain an idea or point of
view. It's hard to do sometimes when you know a lot of people are just going
to skim it, but I think a well-presented idea is its own reward. I look back
on some of the pieces I've written with pride, even though some of them
received very little traffic precisely because they were long and, in a way,
in-depth.

~~~
endtwist
It's true that this is just a short synopsis of my thoughts on the subject. A
more in-depth piece may be worthwhile and I'll definitely explore further--
thanks for the suggestion!

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juiceandjuice
I went to a reddit meetup a few years ago after moving to the bay area on the
suggestion from someone at HN. I knew what reddit was at the time, what I
didn't know was tl;dr.

While I was telling a story, someone told me "tl;dr"

I had to ask what that meant, and people started laughing.

I soon realized I wouldn't be hanging out with anyone who identifies as a
redditor on a regular basis.

~~~
mokash
So you refuse to hang out with any of the millions of Reddit users because
some of them laughed at you for not knowing what tl;dr meant?

~~~
leoedin
I think the issue is with self-identifying redditors.

I've been merrily using Reddit since 2007, but I wouldn't go to a Reddit
meetup. Why? Because the "Reddit" culture is one I don't particularly find
interesting. It centres around bad in jokes, immaturity and sexism.

There are definitely interesting parts of Reddit, but for me (and I'd imagine
others) the culture which some users (unfortunately the loudest) identify with
as being "Reddit" is quite immature and tedious.

Perhaps at one point Reddit was a shared interest which could lead to
interesting conversations, but for quite some time the size of the community
(and its spread in topics) means that the only shared interest of redditors
(judging from the front page right now) is memes and funny pictures.

TL;DR The millions of Reddit users you'd actually want to hang out with
probably wouldn't turn up to a Reddit meetup.

~~~
philh
FWIW, I agree with you about the reddit culture, but the reddit meetups I've
been to have been great. (I've been to a few in Bristol and recently two in
London; admittedly the latter of those was not at a good venue for talking to
people, and the former was supposedly an event which isn't much like many
other London reddit events.)

Presumably it varies a lot from region to region. Like subreddits, but harder
to subscribe to.

------
MichaelApproved
I disagree. People consume and care about information on different levels.
Perhaps _you_ just don't care but some people do care and only want a brief
overview.

Some people don't need the details of a story, for whatever personal reason.
It could be limited time, limited interest or they just want the gist of the
story so they can jump into the comments of a site like HN. I often read the
headline of a story here on HN and go straight to the comments to see what the
community has to say.

TL;DR is also a valuable way to find out if this story is actually
interesting. Sometimes the headline (especially link bait) is so misleading
that it's helpful to have a quick summary before taking the time to dive into
a story.

Personally, I like summarized stories because articles tend to be written for
search engines instead of humans. Repetitive content, long introductions,
useless speculating and unnecessary back-story annoy me.

Of course, I'm biased. I created a news summarizing website[1] but I did that
because I was tired of reading long-winded stories.

[1] <http://SkimThat.com>

~~~
lotharbot
I want headlines to provide me with a concise summary of what I can expect to
find within an article, so I can decide whether it's worth my time.

But headlines don't always do this very well; sometimes they promise more than
the article delivers, and sometimes they're just poorly written and miss the
point.

The tl;dr convention exists, and thrives even on HN, because we recognize the
value of our own and others' time and attention. As you say, it's a valuable
way to find out if the story is actually interesting or worthwhile.

~~~
MichaelApproved
Indeed. In the course of running Skim That, I've heard people refer to TL;DR
as a tool for the lazy or that it encourages people not to read and be ill-
informed. I think it's just the opposite. People care, that's why they're
there reading things in the first place. The TL;DR helps people get more done.

------
EliRivers
The problem with TL;DR is people saying it and expecting to be applauded for
their keen ability to lose focus after five lines, whereas they actually
appear like some kind of idiot child presenting a truly godawful crayon
scribbling.

------
TheCapn
TL;DR as used by a producer of content should be used as a summary. Tag your
article with the details you feel are most important; if they pique the
interest of a reader they'll read the whole thing.

TL;DR as a consumer should be used to indicate the content you are reading
isn't written well. "I got _this_ far in and it hasn't kept my attention.
Abandoning the effort". A user calling tl;dr can be rude, but it does mean
whatever you've posted is not engaging the reader's interest.

~~~
klibertp
> it does mean whatever you've posted is not engaging the reader's interest

Or not. It can well mean that the reader saw how much text you wrote and went
away after reading the title (or not even this) because he just doesn't like
to read or has attention span of 30 seconds at most.

In my experience "tl;dr" is much more often a sign of laziness and/or being
impaired in the field of literacy than it is legitimate complaint about how
well the text was written. It's so stupid I really can't stand it; not too
long ago, when my colleague used the phrase in this sense, I had to ask him:
"Why are you proud to be illiterate?". This is what "tl;dr" really means: that
someone can't read efficiently, has no intention of changing this and is
perfectly happy that all the knowledge he'll ever get will be shallow and
fragmentary.

From what I see this attitude often spreads into other areas, like reasoning,
arguing and even just chatting - in effect such a person is dull,
uninteresting and frequently incapable of any deeper insight. I don't think
there is hard scientific data on this, but I do think it's time to gather
some. And to invent a cure, because - for me at least - it seems like a
disease.

There are legitimate uses for that damned phrase, but they are few and far
between. In your example - is it _really_ that hard to write, as you wrote: "I
got this far in and it hasn't kept my attention. Abandoning the effort"? Why
would you like to replace these two sentences with a "tl;dr"? I can think of
but one reason I would consider legitimate and it is the case of major
disability which makes writing that much harder for the one commenting. There
could be other good reasons, but laziness and illiteracy are not among them.

~~~
sillysaurus
Absolutely. It _is_ a disease -- one I suffered from and cured myself of.

It took being abandoned by a close friend to realize that there was a problem.

------
davidjgraph
What exactly is wrong with writing "Summary" at the top of an article, rather
than "TL;DR"?

We live in a multi-lingual world, using real words, correct grammar and
avoiding slang should be standard in most posts/article. Throwing buzzwords
and acronyms around is self-indulgence at the expensive of non-native English
speakers.

~~~
politician
I see it as the sorrowful realization of authors who know they'll be brutally
summarized by a hostile third party unless they do so themselves -- against
their will.

------
zdw
I find it hilarious that this post basically ends with a TL;DR:

 _Information isn’t consumed by quantity but by interest. We really don’t need
to read more, faster._

~~~
etfb
The bit that made me giggle was the line after that:

    
    
        You should follow me on Twitter here.

------
dizzystar
I flatly refuse to use TL;DR. I am not aiming to talk to anyone who asks for
TL;DR. Those people are not my audience. Oddly, I feel that those that ask for
TL;DR are the very ones who should be reading the entire article, but that is
likely my own hurt talking.

I _do_ understand where the request comes from. Over the past few years, the
web has been proliferated by writers who need 3 paragraphs to open up their
essay (usually with no admirable content), 5 paragraphs beating around the
bush, another paragraph of cliff-hanger, and maybe, after reaching the bottom
of the page, the final point is made. This is not good writing, and I won't
bother reading anything in a similar format. If there is no content in the
first 2 paragraphs, I doubt that there will be much worth reading later on,
thus I seek the respite of the back button. Each writer has his or her
audience, and that audience who asks for TL;DR is not the audience of the
writer.

I have an implicit contract: I offer to my reader a promise of concise and
provocative writing. I suspect that by the time he or she is done reading what
I write, he or she will have something to ponder, something to argue against,
and/or gained new knowledge. My implied contract also states that, at the time
of the writing, I created a piece that uses the least amount of words that I
could have used. If that happens to be a 1500 word essay or a 3-word tidbit,
my point was made, and my reader should not feel resentment towards me after
reading it. If they do feel resentment and wish for a TL;DR, I have failed my
end of the bargain. I took the time to write a piece I am proud of. I let the
piece sit in my computer for days and edited past the point of pain. After all
this work, I want my reader to spend 5 to 10 minutes with my article.

This reader/writer relationship is a two-way street. Good writing requires
cutting out all the prolix bullshit. At this point, I can ask my reader to
respect my words and my effort.

------
skreech
Brevity facilitates content selection.

~~~
milfot
Exactly! It's a parser, not a substitute.

------
ssebro
You're clearly wrong: if using TLDR didn't deliver some sort of value, nobody
would do it. Your argument is similar to how my parents argue about texting -
you just don't get it, and because of a cultural mismatch, you probably never
will. But as an entrepreneur, you need to be able to notice when you don't
understand something, and you need to be above disregarding trends because you
don't understand them - you should be trying to understand rather than just
giving up and saying "this is stupid".

Separately, there are several reasons why people read tons of news articles
they don't really care about. In general, they fall within rewards of the self
(desire for mastery, completion, etc). For more info, check out
<http://www.nirandfar.com/> and pay attention to his explanations of the
different types of random rewards that drive behavior.

------
mokash
The problem is, I care about what I chose to read. I care what the author had
to say in this blog post. Since it was nice and short, I read it all but if he
wrote a 1000 word essay, I would have liked a nice brief tl;dr. If there
wasn't one, I'd just save the article and read it when I have time or can be
bothered.

------
waxjar
Though I agree with the premise that information isn’t consumed by quantity
but by interest, I don't think there's anything wrong with providing a
"tl;dr".

In fact, it can be useful in most cases. I think it helps me establishing
wether an article is worth my time or not, wether it interests me or not.

------
joshrice
Is better to not care and at least have some abbreviated idea about a topic,
or better to not care and no idea?

------
BenoitEssiambre
"It is important to know what is going on in the world around you. But to know
every detail, every update, every little thing that happens? No."

tl;dr Says there is a problem with tl;dr, arguments reveal why we need tl;dr
more than ever.

~~~
BenoitEssiambre
Seriously though, this post is full of confusion.

"However, the focus on speed and efficiency is not a good interim approach
until we solve that problem better. News is an endless consumable; there’s
always more to be read, endlessly produced. Making it more efficent solves a
problem on the wrong side of the equation: how can the journalists get readers
more information, more quickly?"

"tl;dr" is the opposite of speed and efficiency. It's about getting less
information so that we don't always have to be speedy and efficient readers.
It doesn't get you "more information more quickly" it simply gets you _less
information_ when you don't need to have it all.

"the question really boils down to: where can I read content that interests
me, the reader, and avoid the cruft?"

Well that's where 'tl;dr' type summaries help you. you can just read the
tl;dr, summary or headline and avoid the cruft by not reading the rest if it
doesn't appeal to you.

I believe the tl;dr should actually precede the detailed version as a headline
or abstract that helps guide readers and let them choose whether to read
further. However I realise this can sometimes result in spoilage.

------
laserDinosaur
Since when were summaries bad?

~~~
tjr
I like summaries. I find the attitude conveyed by the recent onslaught of
"tl;dr" to be more dismissive in nature than simply summarizing, implying that
the content is not worth your time even if you have the time to spend on it.

------
meritt
Content should be revised until there's no way to summarize it with a TL;DR.

~~~
lotharbot
Summaries are nice. But when the content is deep or technical, sometimes it's
useful to include the long-form data or explanation as well.

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cypherpunks01
TL;DR: Don't bother :)

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isamee
This is why your first few statements should convey the overall message of
what follows. It's just effective style. Then you don't need a TL;DR.

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danieldrehmer
The problem with techie ppl posts about the problem with x

