
We need a longer school year - relation
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/31/opinion/davis-longer-school-year/index.html
======
danneu

        students are most likely to outperform peers, 
        both in traditional district schools and at 
        other charters, if they attend schools that are 
        open at least 10 days more than the conventional year.
    

I have a hard time believing it was those 10 days that made a difference.

Anyways, I was fortunate enough growing up to be part of the middle-income
demographic, so didn't share the struggles of the article. The already-long,
unchallenging, insulting school days/semesters were a struggle as it was.
Extending that awful experience would've been gravely detrimental.

~~~
pytrin
This article makes the common mistake of confusing correlation with causation.
Some data points might correlate but that doesn't imply they cause each other.

~~~
dohko
Exactly right. Did they actually compare students from same school districts
but different income families?

I would think that what is most likely is that good income family students
(who can afford summer schools) probably go to better school, which is by
itself self-reinforcing.

~~~
tomkit
I don't think you'll get that kind of in-depth analysis and research from a "a
nonprofit that promotes expanding learning time to improve student
achievement".

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noonespecial
Time once again for Kubrick:

“I think the big mistake in schools is trying to teach children anything, and
by using fear as the basic motivation. Fear of getting failing grades, fear of
not staying with your class, etc. Interest can produce learning on a scale
compared to fear as a nuclear explosion to a firecracker.”

This is like wondering if painting the walls green will help. There's so much
else wrong that needs fixing first that this is a silly triviality. Like
treating the sniffles when the patient has terminal cancer.

~~~
notatoad
Except that interest doesn't work on a large scale. Schools exist to educate
all their students to roughly the same level. Teaching by inspiring interest
is a great idea, but one teacher does not have the means to teach the unique
interests of 30 kids. To make that plan a success, you'd have to abolish the
entire school system.

~~~
noonespecial
_Schools exist to educate all their students to roughly the same level._ How
does that seem to be working out for them? Simply doing more of what we wish
would work, but doesn't won't help.

I don't know how, but I think that interest is the _only_ thing that can work
on a large scale. If society churns out kids that are only interested in guns,
drugs, and proving they're "thugs 4 life", you might have a problem bigger
than a school system can ever hope to solve.

Abolish the school system? You might be on to something.

Edit: Yeah, I get it. It's one of those, strong, unpopular opinions I hold
loosely. I don't believe all school systems are unworkable, or even that this
one has never been so. But I sure do think it is now. We're paying hugely for
it and it's not working for us. Turn it off.

~~~
andrewflnr
Here's an idea. Make school a low burden, free, for basic math and writing
skills, etc. Basically what we have but lower-key. Then let everyone who
really cares homeschool or pay for private school. Even if you don't abolish
the requirement to go to school, lax requirements for homeschooling would have
a similar effect.

Homeschooling is not for everyone, but personally, being homeschooled in high
school was one of the best things that ever happened to me, in terms of
learning, social interaction and even career opportunities.

~~~
Leftium
How did homeschooling help you in terms of social interaction? I thought that
was one of the arguments against homeschooling.

~~~
andrewflnr
In short, while homeschooled, most of my socialization was with nice peoeple.
Most of my social issues are from the jerks in public school.

We knew a few other families who homeschooled and met weekly; "The Moms" and
occasionally Dads talked about parent stuff and the kids, around 20 of us in
our heyday, just played whatever. We eventually took martial arts and rock
climbing classes together. For the most part they were all pretty nice.
They're still the best friends I've ever had.

Besides that, a lot of homeschoolers (like us) are religious, so we have
religious gatherings we go to. I know a lot of my homeschool friends' friends
from church, too.

My homeschool friends eventually led me to my last couple years of
internships, including this summer at Google. It didn't hurt that
homeschooling had given me lots of time to concentrate on programming.

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genwin
> _We should expect our schools to furnish today's students with the education
> they will need to excel in our global society._

Problem is, schools don't do that in the first place, for the most part. So a
longer school year may make things worse. For examples, schools don't teach
negotiation, setting up a basic business, what to do if police ask to search
your car or home, credit card management, and many other things arguably more
important than today's school subjects. I need my kids to have less time in
school so that I can teach them those more important things. I don't want them
to be educated only to the level that they can toil away in a cube farm for
MegaCorp. I also want my kids to have plenty of time to _not_ be concerned
with excelling in a global society; e.g. exploring national parks.

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nnq
...is everybody really that obsessed about working more, learning more, doing
more and wants to drive this onto our children too?! wtf?! why can't we use
technology in ways that allow us to work LESS, to do LESS, to have more of
"free time" for both us and our children?

paraphrasing a late wise man: the little buggers should have MORE time to just
play with a stick in the mud! (<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6wOt2iXdc4>)

what about "FREE TIME"? children especially should have MORE of it, not less.
and maybe this way, we, the adults would finally understand the cruelty of
having less then 2 months vacation a year! I know, it's America, where
everything is overdone, but for fuck's sake, don't do this to your children
too (...'cause afterwards everyone else will take your example)!

~~~
genwin
> ... maybe this way, we, the adults would finally understand the cruelty of
> having less then 2 months vacation a year!

But then how are we going to compete with the Chinese?! How will the children
survive when they're competing with 15 billion other people in the world (and
more people is always better)? Or let's skip to the real point: how will they
make rich people as richer?

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001sky
_Editor's note: Jennifer Davis is the co-founder and president of the National
Center on Time and Learning, a nonprofit that <_promotes expanding learning
time _> to improve student achievement._

\-- There so many articles written by people that are the CEO of XYZ company
w/ vested financial interest.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Since she's the co-founder, I assume this is at least a little different than
someone pushing an ideology for profit. Presumably she really believes that a
longer school year would benefit children, and both writing the article and
co-founding the non-profit are meant to further that goal.

Instead, say, someone being hired to be the CEO of the non-profit, and then
suddenly discovering a passion for doing whatever it is that helps pay the
bills.

~~~
001sky
[http://aqpq.org/2011/06/13/the-met-and-moma-nonprofit-
luxuri...](http://aqpq.org/2011/06/13/the-met-and-moma-nonprofit-luxuries/)

TL;DR MOMA paid its CEO $1.95Million 2008; non-profit != no financial
interest.

Edited: for clarity.

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cninja
The problem not time in school, the discussion should be about motivating
students. As long as the student is motivated to learn on their own, then more
time in school might result in less learning, in the same way that continual
80 hour work weeks result in a drop in productivity.

My wife taught school in a lower income area. For students that could care
less about learning, the parents treat school like free day care, and the
students forgot a lot of their newly acquired knowledge over the 2 week winter
break.

~~~
grhino
If they are losing the knowledge over a 2 week break, are they really keeping
that knowledge with them over the course of a school year?

~~~
JacksonGariety
No.

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tokenadult
I'm looking for a reference for the point, and my keyword searches on Google
have yet to take me to the right place, but I recall that research has shown
that gifted students actually have learning GAINS when they are out of school
during summer, but then the school year begins with review of the material
that other students didn't learn even during school the year before. So one
strategy to make the time that children spend in school more worthwhile would
be to let learners advance at their own pace, and not put all learners into
lock-step grades in school by age.

<http://learninfreedom.org/age_grading_bad.html>

We don't group students by height, or by weight, or by social maturity, or by
sports skill, so there isn't any good basis for grouping them by age when we
could group them by achieved subject-matter level, and have each class in each
subject proceed through the lessons just as rapidly as learners can with the
best matching instruction.

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mindcrime
Meh, I don't think a longer school year is the solution to the "summer slide."
It would be better to find a way to ensure that kids are motivated to learn on
their own, even over the summer, and to encourage them to engage in beneficial
activities... and, of course, we need to find ways to promote the creation of
more summer activities for kids that are both fun and educational, and to make
sure kids have access to books, Internet, etc. over the summer.

Now that I think about it, I just realized that - for those cities with
hackerspaces - this is a role hackerspaces could help with substantially.
Timing some fun, educational opportunities to correspond with "summer break"
could give kids a chance to do something like a "learn to solder" session,
"electronics kit building", maybe some "intro to computer programming" thing,
etc., etc.

Note to self: talk to the other SplatSpace'ers and see if we can cook
something up for next summer...

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Dirlewanger
I've gotten to the point of beyond jaded when it comes to articles damning how
fucked up the US public education system is. Not because people are constantly
beating a dead horse but because these articles will often be about one
glaring facet which is obviously a problem but is, from a mile-high view one
of the MANY problems that afflict public education.

With all these voices screaming from every corner and Arne Duncan clueless in
Washington, it's like watching a sinking ship with the crew not rallying to
save each other, but instead scurrying up to the crow's nest to save
themselves, beating back others from trying to reach it first.

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bsphil
I'd say it's not necessarily the length of the school year but the size of
summer break being several months. Teachers spend a lot of time getting kids
back up to speed in the fall. Lengthening breaks during the school year and
compensating by trimming summer break down would be wise.

~~~
jdechko
I agree. My son just started kindergarten this year and they get 3 breaks of 1
week or more in addition to all of the national holidays & teacher work days.
But they only seem to get about 9 weeks off during the summer.

Regardless of what changes are made, though, some people won't like the new
schedule. It's just a fact.

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moistgorilla
As someone suggested I think that rather than having one really long break
there should be more small breaks in between. When I was in middle school I
remember one year we were taught how to write in cursive. Summer came and I
forgot it completely. We can't expect children to practice and maintain skills
they don't even understand the value of over breaks (not that cursive is
particularly valuable).

~~~
pbhjpbhj
> _We can't expect children to practice and maintain skills they don't even
> understand the value of over breaks._ //

Why not?

My eldest is 7 and I've done regular reading, spelling, writing and arithmetic
with him over summer. A little science, lots of nature study, etc.. Sure the
motivation hasn't really come from him, though he does like to read. One
spends most of the time at parks or in the woods or whatever (for us it has to
be anything free) but education doesn't end - or at least isn't somehow
disallowed - when the school bell rings.

Schools are a service that you use to aid education (though some would say
otherwise!) and not a place you go and have an education handed to you. I'll
take one education please, make it snappy.

I wonder whether the break serves a function as far as spaced repetition goes?

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mixmastamyk
Quantity != quality.

If poor kids need something to do over the summer, why not invest in some
positive activities for them, instead of punishing everyone?

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I don't even think it's about poverty necessarily; we're far worse off
financially it seems than people we know on state benefits but I'd class what
we've managed to do for free/low cost over the summer as being pretty
enriching.

We do have a car which is essential for work but if we didn't have to run it
then we'd still be able to make the trips we do - with extra arrangements and
some extra time - and be no worse off financially.

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protomyth
No, we really don't. In fact, I would love to see the amount of time students
need to put into school maxed at 8 hours a day. None of this go to school and
then spend 3 hours on homework during the night. No adult would put up with
that crud except under hard economic conditions or ownership stake.

All they will do with the extra days is add more grunt work. We need to
rebuild the system and giving them extra days is just a poor excuse. Summer is
the time for something else. Many kids still farm or go to summer camps. I
learnt chemistry during the summer far better than what was taught later in
school.

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edgesrazor
It's already common knowledge that not every child learns the same way - it's
a product of both genetics and environment. My wife teaches in a district that
has a good mix of middle-class and disadvantaged students. When summer is
over, the teachers see huge discrepancies between the kids whose parents
worked with them over the summer and the ones who didn't - and the economic
class isn't what's dictating that discrepancy. It's unfortunate that some
parents can't accept the responsibility of continuing their child's education
outside of school, but if that's the case, maybe the best bet is to let the
districts - not the state or federal governments dictate the curriculum and
schedule.

This would put more responsibility on school boards, superintendents and
administration. Underperforming administrators no longer can just sit back and
play with politics and cronyism - they will have to accept the responsibility
of creating and maintaining an environment that most reflects the community
demographics, or they're gone. Blaming the teachers has to stop - it's the
same thing that's happening with law enforcement - "We're going to pass more
laws that make your job tougher and more involved, but you're going to have to
do it with less money and support. Good luck."

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squarecat
"American educational system" is a misnomer, as it is currently only equipped
to produce standardized test passers (in aggregate), not educated individuals.

However it has spawned a lucrative vertical market for NCLB grant specialists.

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dsr_
Teachers should be paid like engineers. The job is at least as important and
at least as difficult.

~~~
genwin
If you look closely they're among the highest paid people already. By the time
they retire at age 50, after just 25 years of service, they've got a lifetime
pension that would cost you or me over $2 million (after paying taxes) to buy
an annuity to cover. That's _not_ to say they don't deserve it.

~~~
dsr_
Average teacher salary in Massachusetts, one of the richest states, is
$70,340. The lowest-paying town has an average of under $45K. Highest, $92.5K.

Massachusetts probably doesn't have an issue with teacher salaries.

Mississippi has a statewide average salary of under $42K.

Is it well-scaled to cost-of-living? No.

Average teacher salary in Hawaii, one of the most expensive states to live in,
is $55K.

Meanwhile, a 50 yo who retires with 25 years of service gets 25% of the
average of their top three year's salaries as an annual pension. To get the
maximum 80% pension, you need to have at least 35 years of service at 57.
Figures from Massachusetts.

~~~
genwin
> Meanwhile, a 50 yo who retires with 25 years of service gets 25% of the
> average of their top three year's salaries as an annual pension.

Good info. I believe that would still put the 50 yo at > $100K annually on
average during their working years, considering the cost of the equivalent
annuity. (The price of an annuity increases exponentially as age at purchase
decreases. In retirement they also get health insurance worth over $12K
annually.) For the ones with 35 years of service it would top $150K.

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Daniel_Newby
I would argue that the "summer slide" is, in fact, valuable. School teaches
many skills beyond academics: social conditioning, conformity to inescapable
bullies, observation of strict schedules for intellectual work, strict
compartmentalization of activities, coping with a homogenous social
environment of people of the same level of immaturity, and so forth.

Most of these are profoundly maladaptive in the adult world. We _want_ them to
forget most of that garbage. Students grow up to be civilized adults _in
spite_ of these teachings, and a large summer break is a great opportunity to
reconnect with humanity and the adult world.

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goggles99
_during the summer, they lose those gains while their more advantaged peers --
whose parents can afford to arrange for summer enriching activities --
maintain theirs._

A longer school year is not the answer. We need more parents stay home to
raise their kids and educate/enrich them. The media and government lies to
people telling them that they need to keep up with the Jones' to be happy.
Give up that new SUVs, their cable tv with HBO ETC, new clothes, restaurants,
new furniture, (bigger) house, expensive vacation(s), gambling/mad money,
nickel and dime expenses that add up to thousands per year, yard service,
nanny, convenience items ETC. Which requires two income families.

Here is the bottom line. Either both parents work these days and/or are
divorced/split/one is out of the picture. This is especially true among
minorities. If men an women made good decisions and planned well. This "gap"
would never happen. Look at the quality of life for minorities now compared to
what it was 50 years ago. Some call this an advancement - but I call
mistreating their children and forsaking their parental responsibilities in
exchange for more lavish living. This is selfishness.

People used to do the right thing and stay home to further educate and raise
their kids. Sure they had less possessions, they had less greed too, and were
happier and more self fulfilled (they took the responsibility of parenting
seriously). Now people are not even raising their own kids. Child care has
them for 10 hours a day and they have them for 4. After they are 8-9 years
old, they just run amok through the neighborhood. Either this or momma stays
home to tend to her drug/alcohol habit, soaps and latest boyfriend/pregnancy
(instead of raising her kids the right way) all while collecting welfare.

How about instead of always trying to fix schools to help those lagging behind
because their parents are incompetent - why don't we sink a bunch of money
into educating minorities to make better choices to begin with. It is all
about prevention. It is sad how progressives and liberals have tried to
replace traditional morals (stemming from out country's traditional Judeo
Christian beliefs) with Condoms, birth control pills, abortion clinics,
divorces without even a decent attempt at restoration, live in boyfriends,
degradation of marital value and commitment ETC. Look at all the trouble it
has caused. The sexual restraint and careful courtship which was traditionally
practiced was quite effective for producing lasting and committed whole
families. Removing the constraints of religious values actually has created
far more traps for people to fall into. Now Liberals want the Government to
fix things somehow. Is it possible? Can government replace God and do as good
a job?

Myself - growing up in a lower middle class family, in the summer my (stay at
home) mom taught us extra things to prepare us the next school year and took
us to museums and landmarks occasionally for enrichment and so we would have a
leg-up (or at least keep stride) on the others. We did not have or need TV or
video games. My wife does the same with my kids. I had friends whose parents
both worked or were in a single parent situation. Lots of them ended up
failing out of school and falling by the wayside.

