
Ask HN: Should I attend college? - ruswick
I am a current high school senior who intends to go into the software industry. I&#x27;m trying to decide between enrolling in college to pursue a BS in Computer Science or entering directly into the workforce.<p>My conundrum is this: I intend to seek a front-end engineering job, and am already very competent in front-end technologies. I have a fair number of items on my resume, mostly from personal projects and internships. I anticipate being able to acquire a moderately well-paying ($60,000 to $80,000+) development job after leaving high school. <i>However</i>, I&#x27;m also worried that not pursuing a degree will exclude me from certain well-paying jobs, especially later in my career.<p>I&#x27;m also quite worried about the debt load that a degree would require. I anticipate having to take out between $50,000 and $100,000 in loans to finance a degree.<p><i>On balance, do you think pursuing a degree will be more lucrative in the long run?</i>
======
hglaser
Yes.

Yes yes yes yes yes.

"Front-end engineering" is a craft that happens to be relevant right now. It's
an artifact of the particular client-server computing model we currently have.
It is not likely to be relevant 5-10-20 years from now.

"Computer Science" is (among other things) a discipline that will give you the
ability to learn the next craft, and the next one after that. It will keep you
relevant your whole career.

Definitely go to college if you have the opportunity to do so.

~~~
capkutay
Don't forget there'll be some steady jobs in the tech industry that OP would
automatically be disqualified from for not having a college degree. Also, if a
job offering is competitive and there are multiple candidates with the same
skillset and experience as OP, the person with the college degree might get
the benefit of the doubt.

~~~
collyw
I think it really depends if you want to go the corporate soulless
uninteresting but well paid and secure work route.

~~~
capkutay
Not necessarily. You don't have to be a big soulless corporation to prefer
candidates with a college degree.

------
peter_l_downs
> I'm trying to decide between enrolling in college to pursue a BS in Computer
> Science or entering directly into the workforce.

Do what I did and have it both ways: take a gap year before starting college.
I was accepted to MIT's class of 2016 but I won't be joining until the class
of 2018 (this coming fall) because I joined a startup in San Francisco. If
you're as good as you say you are you'll be able to get a job, and most
universities allow gap years without a problem.

> On balance, do you think pursuing a degree will be more lucrative in the
> long run?

Yes. There are also many other reasons to go to college. Let me know if you
have any particular questions or if there's some way I can help.

EDIT: Let me recommend a gap year again for a different reason: it lets you
put off your decision until you know more about working in the real world. It
would be easy to decide to continue working after your gap year and never go
to school. It also provides a nice "hedge" against the real world — if you end
up disliking your job, it could never be more than a year before you head off
to school.

~~~
drewblaisdell
> > On balance, do you think pursuing a degree will be more lucrative in the
> long run?

> Yes.

Do you have good evidence for this? I've seen data that says that each year of
post-high school education correlates with a ~8% bump in salary, but I am
doubtful that this is a causal effect.

If the OP wants to make money, spending time becoming one of the best persons
at some subset of front-end engineering is almost certainly more lucrative and
more easily doable outside of a university. Alex Maccaw
([http://alexmaccaw.com](http://alexmaccaw.com)) is a good example of this.

------
ronaldx
If you can access $60k jobs after leaving high school, then pursuing a full-
time degree will cost you at least 3x$60k + tuition.

This advice is _specific to your situation_ and not my general advice:

If your assessment is accurate, and if you have options in the job market (you
are not tied to a single generous employer, say), I would recommend you _don
't_ take a degree.

A degree is going to put you perhaps $300k (1 house) and several years in the
hole. It's not obvious that you'll then have better access to the job market
than you have now. It's even possible you would have worse access. For most
employers, practical experience of work they need trumps college classes.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from taking a degree later or taking
one part-time if you decide that it's relevant to you.

As a final point, you should consider applying for both college and jobs,
giving you a clearer choice of your available options.

~~~
danieldk
_If you can access $60k jobs after leaving high school, then pursuing a full-
time degree will cost you at least 3x$60k + tuition._

Let's not be to US-centric. If you look beyond the borders of your country,
it's perfectly possible to study at a relatively high-ranked university for a
small tuition fee. E.g., the university where I studied in The Netherlands has
a rank hovering between 78 and 98 in various ratings (e.g. Times Higher
Education World University Rankings). Yearly tuition is Euro 1835 for students
from the EU and Euro 7500 for international students.

~~~
Jach
There's nothing US-centric about what you quoted; the 3x$60k figure (and it
could end up being 5x) comes from the opportunity cost of going to school
instead of working. That can be lessened with part time work and full-time
during summers, but it's still there.

~~~
danieldk
Sorry, I misread. But I still think the point stands. Tuition fee is not an
issue in many other countries. Besides that, in most areas, a post-university
income will likely be higher than working for four years after high school.

Then there's also the social factor. University allows you to network with
peers, some of which will be very successful and may give you good leads. It's
also a good place to meet a life partner and have a good time.

------
TrainedMonkey
If your experience is as good as you claim, you should have zero issues going
to college and working part time at decently well paying job.

I am speaking from experience, that is what I did. I never had to take any
loans and thus graduated with zero debt.

------
mtravis
On balance, it will probably be better for you in the long run. I am a high
school and college dropout, and nearly as old as dirt. I am entirely self-
taught with computers, with no academic credentials. I didn't even take CS
courses while in college. I am not a failure career-wise, but I believe that a
CS, EE, or similar degree, in hind-sight, would have helped me.

There's 3 main reasons for this:

1) there is a lot of conceptual and algorithm stuff that is drummed into
people at school that, while possible to learn on one's own, requires time and
effort. If I had time to study Knuth in depth, I would love to do so. This
subject matter is very often useful--in hindsight, this is my biggest regret
for not having studied CS, because there are gaps in my knowledge that would
have been easy to fill had I been studying these things long ago.

2) while employers generally do not _require_ a CS degree, it is very often
that their employment screening steps will filter you out if you cannot
regurgitate much of the stuff described in step 1: algorithms and coding
styles taught in college, the way that colleges teach them. No matter how much
PR a company claims for itself in looking for intelligence, creativity, and
experience, if you haven't internalized the textbook stuff, then you'll
frequently get filtered out of interview process quite early. You'll still be
able to get jobs, but just not likely the ones with the biggest marquee names
with the highest candidate:opening ratio.

3\. If you want to do a startup, you'll want to be in the vicinity of people
who also want to do a startup. That's much easier when you're in college, and
you get looked upon favorably if you come from a prestigious institution. Seed
and angel investors like throwing cash at pairs of kids from good schools who
can make something that seems useful and is in a hot space.

So, yes, go to college. Study CS, math and also some business stuff like econ.
Avoid humanities like plague.

------
mcintyre1994
Front-end engineering is a tiny proportion of computer science (ie not covered
in a general curriculum at all), so I'd say it depends if you want the depth
of more front-end experience putting you even further ahead of your peers or
the depth of a huge range of CS subjects, mostly close to useless for your
standard front-end engineering role.

Lines are getting blurred, and college/university isn't the only way to learn
more things, but I imagine you're ruling yourself out of a lot of jobs by
focusing this early. Maybe you don't want them jobs though. I guess my best
guess at an answer is take a job if you can and you know it's the career you
want, if not bite the bullet and do CS.

------
Jach
No, don't bother. Maybe later in your life if you've got nothing better to do.
If you can't find your $60k+ job, then college can be a good economic buffer
(living off loan money) until you do.

If you're already questioning it, you're probably going to be questioning it
every year of school whether you should drop out or keep going. This could
lead to misery, especially if you lose interest in what the school is
teaching. The networking benefit of school is overrated; networking with other
professionals is better than networking with other students. (You can also
more easily get around degree requirements if you're getting a job at a
company where someone you know already works there.) The 'variety of topics'
at schools is overrated too; you can get such a broader knowledge of things in
your spare time, and as another commenter mentioned front-end dev is rarely
covered at all in a CS degree and you can learn so many other things not
covered just from doing your job.

I would recommend actually learning about the material covered in a CS degree
in your spare time. Use your job money to buy a few books -- if you don't know
what to buy, many schools have a required/suggested book list organized by
course. Two I'd recommend are Pike and Kernighan's _The Practice of
Programming_ and Skiena's _The algorithm design manual_ , the latter of which
goes over enough CS that if you ever wanted a "Software Engineer" job instead
of front-end work you would be able to handle most any technical interview
question.

------
catinsocks
I'd say apply now before it is to late (if you haven't already), attempt to
get a job during the summer for what you think you can ($60,000-80,000 may be
iffy unless you have access to more progressive companies) and if you can't:
go to school.

If you are really lucky you could probably even find a job that will let you
go to school part time while you are working which would be the best of both
worlds.

You don't have to attend school right away but you'll probably lose all
momentum to go as you age.

------
bpyne
Tough question to answer without knowing more about you.

Graduating high school and going directly into industry will give you some
real world experience. Professional development is very different from hobby
development. Professional development means accepting projects and
technologies that may be of no interest to you but the company needs them. If
you're doing in-house IT development, you may spend a large part of your time
doing systems analysis, operations, and support work. Your employer isn't
truly concerned about your trying new technologies; it wants people who
support its own technologies and that's where you'll be focused.

Gauging your interest in these compromises, before committing 4 years and $75K
for example, will save you a lot of frustration later on.

Depending on your employer, you may be able to get the company to foot some of
the bill if you decide to go the college route later.

On the other hand, college has several positive sides. You get to experiment
and fail with little consequence. (Largely, the ability to fail and learn has
been driven out of the office place since I started 23 years ago.) You get to
network with others around your age who have an interest in the field. You can
study other subjects that may/may not help you in the field but they interest
you anyway. Lastly, you have the degree to build on in case you want to do
more advanced study later in life.

My caution is not to make your decision based on fear. You will do well either
way so long as you work hard and stay curious. Just be aware of the trade
offs.

Good luck.

------
capdevc
If the question is which option will be more lucrative over your entire
lifetime, nobody here or anywhere else will be able to give you an iron clad
answer. That said, I can just about promise you that four years of college
will expose you to more "stuff" than working as a developer somewhere for four
years will, so I'd recommend it for that.

I entered as a freshman who could already program. I wasn't amazing, but I was
ok. I liked programming, and had a good intuitive sense for it. What I didn't
know before I went was how much I actually didn't know... and I don't mean
about programming, although that is part of it. I mean how many interesting
subjects there are in CS, some of which turned out to be far more interesting
to me than the actual programming.

A university probably isn't the best job training program for a developer, but
maybe you'll find out you don't actually want to be a developer? That's what
happened to me while I was there and I wouldn't trade finding something I was
really passionate about for four years of income.

So my advice would be go if you can, and take advantage of it while you are
there. You may get more than a piece of paper or a higher salary out of it.

------
knappador
Work for a year, then go to school. It will measure your skill vs your
expectations. It will inform you as to the value in being where you are as
opposed to where you think you can be with four years time focused in a few
mostly parallel directions. It will ground you in the realities of making
money how you can now compared to how you might. It will prepare you for
working while in school so you can kill five (or more) birds with one stone.
You can get soft working skills at the same time as your actual work skill
increases without having to be dedicated to a career.

I can't stress this part enough: Pre-debt expenses amount to what, $2k per
month? After you have debt and likely start carrying other expensive things
around, you're under more income stress. Income when your expenses are small
is highly gratifying. Income when your expenses are large is like a treadmill
if it isn't high enough. You will enjoy pre-debt money more than any other
money you will ever have until you are out of debt. Might as start life with a
breather.

In school, you can change your career much more freely, but you have to
intersect back with reality somewhere or else you aren't changing anything.
While working, you're too busy working and doing lead generation etc to focus
on changing your skill set drastically. Being independent ultimately makes
this less of a problem, but doesn't make it go away. The classes that are a
waste of time are only a waste of time when you don't pick them well or have
no options for a particular semester, in which case you will have a similarly
distracting workload, though honestly, once you've worked any crazy time,
undergraduate is a f&*@ing joke that most people there (especially at state
schools) are simply wanting a crutch to delay the adolescence-adult life
transition.

College is a very good opportunity to change cities without getting super
committed to a new area and without having to line up work in two places,
which you have to do in career world. You have to have runway at point A and
somewhat of a a landing at point B. That's a lot of headache and fortune
compared to, "Oh cool, so I'll go move to that place and take out X loans."

Meeting people is not a bad side-effect. Out in the mix, you find rarely
random people your age of similar life status who you can peer with and never
in such large concentrations. People who are out of college in your age group
will be of different lives than career folk. Just the truth. You might be
egalitarian and non-judgmental, but that doesn't mean you're going to want to
feel like your time is better spent elsewhere.

------
snowwrestler
The career I've had for the past 15 years--building websites--did not even
exist when I started college.

The world you will live in in your 40s will be radically different than the
world you live in today. Education is the best tool you can ever hope to have
for coping with that change.

Go to college and make sure you study things you don't like or don't think are
important--like literature, or art, or a foreign language. This will force you
to get good at learning things, which is the #1 skill you need to thrive over
your lifetime. (But being good at writing and analyzing is itself a very
useful skill to have.)

If you are worried about the debt load, then do something to mitigate that,
specifically. Do the first two years at a community college and then transfer
to a university. Or take a couple years to work, and save up your money, then
go to school. Or go part time while you work.

But definitely pursue your education. Otherwise you put yourself at the mercy
of other people who did.

------
Haul4ss
I have a number of friends in various pockets of the IT industry who do not
have four-year degrees.

Of those, the ones that are > 40 wish they had the degree. I suspect they're
hitting the upper bound of the career ladder for non-grads at the majority of
the corporations in the U.S.

I can't predict the future, so I'm not sure if this limitation will still
exist when you're > 40\. It's just a factor to consider.

If you can make a comfortable living now, and you have the right self-
discipline and temperament, you might consider working and doing school part-
time. A Bachelor's will take much longer than four years, but it is doable.

Also, consider that you'll probably be working into your 60s. Why the big
hurry to start full-time work at 18?

Just some random things to think about.

Edited to add: When I was younger, my dad told me to do the things now that
leave you the most opportunities later. Getting a four-year degree would fall
into that category, I think.

------
mkoryak
_I anticipate having to take out between $50,000 and $100,000 in loans to
finance a degree._

Is that really what college costs these days? I went to state school which
cost about 8-10K per year. My loans are 0% subsidized govt loans. I pay about
150 bucks per month. I could have paid them all off by now, but why?

It doesn't need to be that expensive.

~~~
ruswick
In-state tuition at my state flagship (Illinois) is $20,000. Factor in cost of
living and various fees, and costs can easily run into the $30,000 to $40,000
per year range. Moreover, state funding for the university has fallen in
recent years, meaning that financial aid is scarce and that tuition is
perpetually rising.

If I recall correctly, the interest rate on Stafford loans is 3.4%. Government
"Parent PLUS" loans and private loans are much higher. What's especially
appalling is that the federal government actually uses student loans as a
source of revenue. ([http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/ripping-off-
young-...](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/ripping-off-young-
america-the-college-loan-scandal-20130815))

The cost is getting out of control.

~~~
okaram
You don't have to go there; especially not the whole 4 years; just googled
Illinois state is more like $6500, and community colleges are way cheaper --
and you can use CLEP too! (OTOH, CS at UIUC would look really coll on the
resume, so maybe transfer for your last 2 years, or go for an MS)

------
dsk139
Why go for four years?

I loved my college experience and I found that network I built was awesome. If
I were to do it again though I would probably go to CC for two years then
transfer to the college of my choice to offset the cost.

I would also look for freelance/part-time remote work during my time
throughout my college career.

------
decentrality
If by "later in your career" you mean 3-5 years from now or later, if you use
your time well, you will have more than the requirements for jobs which
usually require a degree "or" 3-5 years industry experience. You have a huge
opportunity to go your own way, in a massive field, with plenty of resources
to get you where you want to go, alone.

It will be tough going at first, but if you are good at what you do, you can
out-pace what you would earn with a degree. You will have some "verifiable"
acclaim, and you can back up everything you may with evidence you built
yourself, while doing client projects all you can. Look through online
databases of freelancing gigs, but it's a wild west.

A BS in Computer Science will not serve you well if you intend to do front-end
engineering, for the most part. IMO, it would be better to work in online
communities of experts such as
[http://stackoverflow.com](http://stackoverflow.com) or
[http://ux.stackexchange.com/](http://ux.stackexchange.com/), earn reputation
there, and build a portfolio of past work.

Most of all, stay relevant. If you do projects for your own experimentation,
develop them to a point that is presentable, then move on to more paid work or
experimental work that demonstrates being on the edge of the field, until you
are sure you want to "specialize" in a certain way or format or technology.

On the whole, you can do everything you might want to do, including gain
contacts and peer review, without college. Participate in online communities
with good offline meet-ups and conferences, etc. Stay connected, eager, and
active. In 3-5 years you'll have a demonstrated track record of being self-
motivated, well educated, and extremely progressive.

I can't over emphasize how saturated the field is, which will be tough for you
with or without a degree unless you set yourself apart. Focus on that,
regardless of what else you do. I personally believe an independently created
career without a degree will be more lucrative in the long run.

------
dkural
Yes.

I do think which school you can go to affects the outcome. I understand that
application season is over, but hopefully you've applied to many need-blind
schools that are in the top-50 where you wouldn't have to take out any loans.

It's also a great way to seed your life-long personal network in a different
way. A lot of your college buddies will go onto diverse fields, and together
you will spot many connections between them and pursue those. This can be very
lucrative as well.

College, besides the learning, teaches you things you didn't know you needed
to understand. It often changes you as a person - It's not only that you now
know more answers, it affects what types of questions you ask.

------
bgar
I think you should consider going to college. Since you already have a lot of
prior experience, it would be better if you try to graduate faster. You can
take CLEP exams to test out of GE requirements, as well as get CS-specific
courses waived by showing prior experience (I did both of these things). Right
now I'm turning 18 but finishing my sophomore year of college.

The way I see it, four years to get a degree is worth it, you will not ever
have to worry about whether you are qualified "on paper". Of course most tech
companies don't really care as long as you can code, but it's good to have,
just in case.

------
raverbashing
Let me tell you

It's all a fad

The more "high level", the more a fad it is. Nobody is going to remember
coffeescript in 10 years, maybe 5.

"Front end development"? Let me tell you something, I bough a book about HTML
in 2007. This book is basically worthless today. Sure, for someone who has
never studied it is it useful. But things change. How much was IE6 knowledge 3
years ago? How much it is today?

College won't teach you about the latest features of Windows 8, or Mac OS. It
will teach you how and why things happen the way they happen.

And that's "timeless". Considering most of it was invented in the 70s and
still apply.

------
blueblob
I think this is kind of a false dichotomy. If you can find a job right out of
highschool in the software industry, you may be able to find a place that has
tuition reimbursement for you to take part time classes.

------
Ologn
Why $50,000 in loans? How about a state school? You can always get an MS at a
private school later.

Getting a job may be easy now, but how about when it is like it was in 2001 or
2008? You will be competing for each job with several others who have a BSCS?
That is for jobs that do not explicity require a BSCS. You may also be married
with children then. You have the time now and lack financial obligations other
than keeping yourself fed.

I know people like John Carmack and Jamie Zawinski are out there, but it very
rare to meet someone without a college degree who knows what primitive
recursive functions are, or how to design a four number binary adder with
logic gates, or the difference between deterministic and nondeterministic
pushdown automata and so forth. People without a degree might know all the
keywords for a language, but are usually lacking on some abstract theoretical
level. Another problem is not just what they do not know, it is what they do
not even know that they do not know.

Of course you know your own personal situation better than any one else. But
if you can go to school you should. Even two years of learning will help. But
some of it is on you, tests and homeworks do not cut it, if you are learning
an important subject, sometimes you should spend hours studying beyond what
you need to get an A. Or doing independent projects to get some real world
grasp of the some theory.

------
michaeleloftis
I think you have to ask yourself, "Where will I be in four years in both of
these scenarios?" If you choose college, you'll have a degree, some book
knowledge, and some debt. If you choose to work, you'll have four years of
experience and some money in the bank.

I'd argue that four years of experience trumps the four years of book
learning, and that the debt vs. savings issue is secondary, (but of course
points towards getting a job now).

So I would suggest you try to find a job rather than go to college.

~~~
voidlogic
This is a false dichotomy. I worked summers and part-time during the school
year, my entire time in college. I had graduated with no debt, 4 years of book
learning and 4 years of XP. Most of my fellow C-S students had internships
paying $15-20/hr by their sophomore year, and almost all that wanted them by
their junior year.

This is not to mention that outside of the coasts, unless you are freelancing
or starting a startup, people hiring developers often require a degree (at
least in hires with less 10 years XP).

------
Daegalus
I say both have their pros and cons.

I currenlty work full-time at a startup making $120k+ and I don' have my
degree. But I am also finishing up my degree part time.

I got into the industry by doing an internship at Electronic Arts, and being
offered to stay full-time, and they knew full well that I didn't have a
degree. I learned from some amazing backend engineers and architects, many of
which had left EA shortly before I did. I can pretty much go anywhere now
without a degree, because the most important thing in the industry is on the
job experience.

Though, I think the promise of me taking classes towards a degree helped me a
bit. There are a few things I learned from the classes I took that I would
have never learned on my own, at least I don't believe i would have. And many
are important to my job now. But I am a backend engineer so I feel the
theoretical stuff I learned for the CS degree apply more than a frontend
engineer.

Overall there are pros and cons to both approaches, but I could completely
stop going to school right now and not be affected by it at all.

Another thing you have to take into account is career growth. Many managerial
positions aren't easy to get if you don't have a degree of some sort. So you
might eventually hit a ceiling with being just a programmer. Unless you get
lucky to make your way up somewhere, get the Resume experience and then move.

Its not easy or black & white. But I know both have their pros and cons.

I currently have 0 debt, since I am able to make my $2500 payments per semster
at SJSU for partime class load.

But I also have other circumstances, I still live at home, per my father's
financial suggestions, saving money for my own house (want to do a 20% down
payment). This lets me splurge more than most, still cover school, drive a
nice car, and so on. So everyone's circumstances are different, you need to
way all your options, all your responsibilities, and what you plan to do short
and long term. Then make your decision.

I know I will get my degree in 1-2 years of what I am doing now. SO i will
have that damned piece of paper that for the most part will be useless to me
until i get into more managerial roles, and even then it probably won't be as
useful except get me into the interview.

------
philangist
Sorry for any and all rambling.

Hey OP,

I'm a 19 year old software developer in NYC. I didn't go to college myself,
and I was in your position not too long ago, so I think I can offer some
helpful advice. First of all, you don't need to go to college to get a job as
a software developer, especially if you live in/near a tech hub (NYC, San
Fran, Seattle, Austin, etc). However you'll probably be limited to smallish
startups, at least until you build up some professional experience. If you're
genuinely confident that you can handle a fulltime position now, then I'd
suggest just applying to companies near you that you're interested in working
for. On the other hand, you could try working for one or two companies as an
intern over the next few months. This is what I did, and although it was
difficult getting paid very little (or nothing) at times, it was worth it
because I was able to leverage my experience for a fulltime position. Either
way I'd suggest creating a nice resume for yourself and putting up some code
on github. This will go a long way towards making you look 'professional'.

It's true that not going to school will mean that you might miss out on some
fundamental CS knowledge, but this doesn't have to be the case. With
wikipedia, google, stack overflow, moocs, and online lecture notes/textbooks,
you'll have access to the same knowledge as your average undergrad in a state
school. With the added benefit of being able to place all this information
within a real-life context. You're probably not going to learn as fast as
someone immersed in a cs curriculum, but you'll be getting paid an absurd
amount of money to learn this stuff, instead of spending the same amount of
money.

There are some disadvantages to entering the workforce at such a young age
though, nothing major but I thought you should be aware:

    
    
        - All the girls our age are in college. Literally all of them. It makes dating
          very difficult.
    
        - You'll always be 'the young guy' at work. Prepare for endless jokes about
          your age.
    
        - A lot of people will probably look down on you for not going to
          college. Don't let it get to you, these people don't matter.
    
        - All the girls our age are in college. Think about what this really
          means and if you're willing to deal with it. You're probably not going
          to meet girls frequently until you're 21. I've repeated this twice for a reason.
    
        - You won't always be able to go to bars after work with coworkers.
    

Nonetheless, being a fulltime developer is awesome. I've got zero debt, I get
paid an absurd amount of money, and I love my job. Good luck dude.

P.S: Learn Emacs. It's awesome.

~~~
maratd
> All the girls our age are in college. Literally all of them. It makes dating
> very difficult.

This is a limiting belief that you've ingrained deep down and it is seriously
hurting you.

You really, really need to work on this. The truth is, you're not 100% sure
you made the right call and this is seeping through.

You have a job. Income. Probably your own place, car, etc. You know what she
has? Debt.

You're not working at McDonalds. You have a job that she will kill for _years_
from now.

Also, there is nothing wrong with dating slightly older women. Especially
those who just graduated and realize they pissed away four years of their life
to work as a secretary.

~~~
philangist
You're probably right that it's a limiting belief/excuse on my part, but the
reality is dating outside of college is more difficult than doing so as a
college student. This is compounded with the fact that like a lot of other
techy people I was awkward with the opposite sex in high school. I still
haven't fully gotten over that attitude now that I'm in the real world, and
you were obviously able to pick up on that. But I'm working on it. I have
interesting hobbies, go out every now and then (mostly to concerts), I'm
trying to dress better, and I work out a few times a week (which has done
wonders for my self confidence). But hey, if you've got any dating advice I'm
definitely willing to listen.

~~~
maratd
> This is compounded with the fact that like a lot of other techy people I was
> awkward with the opposite sex in high school.

Same here.

> I have interesting hobbies, go out every now and then (mostly to concerts),
> I'm trying to dress better, and I work out a few times a week (which has
> done wonders for my self confidence).

Bingo. You need to be in a place where you are satisfied. Not happy. Nobody
can be happy alone. But satisfied that you are leading the life that you want.

Very few people get that chance in life. To truly lead the life they want and
desire for themselves.

> But hey, if you've got any dating advice I'm definitely willing to listen.

Get into a habit of doing one new thing a day. Even things you're
uncomfortable with. Just by virtue of doing that, you'll end up meeting new
people and will begin to see things in a new light. It'll also make your life
more interesting and fun.

Dating advice? Keep it simple. Figure out what you want. Go after it. Don't
give up, keep pushing forward.

If you really want a girl your age, go after that. I know you convinced
yourself they're all in college. They're not. There are plenty of women who
didn't go to college and went into a profession directly, just like you.
Models come to mind. Want to date a model?

Think about this again and again, until you realize you are _not_ at a
disadvantage, but are actually so far ahead of the pack, you can't even see
the losers behind you. Seriously.

~~~
philangist
Dating models would be nice. If I figure out how to do that I'll be sure to
let you know. ;)

In any case I'll think over what you've said here and try to be more social
and stop sabotaging my dating life. Thanks dude.

------
YZF
You can also get a job first and then get a degree later. You can even study
while working (which is difficult, but possible). I did a combination of both
to get my CS degree. (Not in the US though).

Having been on both sides of this (getting my first software job at 15, before
I had a degree, though with some exposure to theoretical computer science) I
would say the knowledge you gain from a _good_ CS program is important. While
it is possible to acquire that knowledge without going through a formal
program (and more so today) most people don't have the discipline required to
do so.

In terms of employability, if you are very good and you have experience I
wouldn't anticipate an issue even at tough economic times. There are still
advantages to having a degree (e.g. if you're a Canadian who wants to work in
the US without a degree good luck getting TN status). If you are not very good
the degree can make the difference (and very likely it'll also make you
better).

Lastly, "front-end" engineering is just the latest incarnation of the same
engineering we've been doing for decades. Just because your code runs in the
browser doesn't make it any different. As other people have noted these things
will keep changing but the principles don't.

------
benwerd
You absolutely should attend college. (But there's nothing wrong with taking a
gap year first.)

The difference is between thinking about the _now_ and the _rest of your
life_. It's true that you'll probably draw a good salary from a front-end
development job; you'll also keep up to date with technologies for quite some
time. However, a degree, for better or for worse, is a gatekeeper for a great
many things, which are very likely to be helpful later on.

If you're truly interested in these technologies, it's not like you'll lose
your skills: you're very likely to keep working on front-end web development
throughout your college career. But you'll also be earning a signal that
you're a long-term thinker with a rounded education who can think
strategically. $60-80k may seem like a great salary now, but eventually you'll
be thinking about how to grow from that. Having a degree opens up many more
positions to you, but also increases your surface area for new experiences,
opportunities and ideas. In turn, that will open up your opportunities for
_freedom_ , self-determination, and simply making a larger impact in your
field.

Hopefully, you can get scholarships to help with those college fees, but
either way, because you can command a high salary as a developer, you'll be
able to pay them off. They're worth it.

Gap years are good, though - I wish I'd taken one - and may help clarify your
decision.

Finally, regarding those fees (and increasing your opportunity for new
experiences), don't forget that you can go to college outside of the US.

------
hackNightly
I'm what you would call a 'front-end' engineer. Senior front-end developer is
my current title, though I'm quite capable of full-stack development. I make
$103,000 annually and do not have a college degree. There has never been a job
that denied me due to lack of education because I've been able to prove myself
and my abilities. Going to college is a great resume boost, but has had no
bearing on my career thus far.

(source: Front-end dev for 5+ years)

~~~
cozuya
I've been on a lot of interviews in the past couple years and maybe 1 out of 5
even think to question why I don't have an "education" section on my resume or
what my schooling is (none). No one cares. Being able to do the job/get
through a technical interview/show decent code samples is ridiculously more
important than a degree.

------
nnash
>I anticipate being able to acquire a moderately well-paying ($60,000 to
$80,000+) development job after leaving high school.

I think you need to be more realistic about your expectations. If you have no
prior work experience you'll have a hard time finding someone to take a chance
on you much less pay you 6k a month. Statistically speaking highschool
graduates earn less on average than those with bachelors or associates. If you
don't have a bachelors you will need at least fours years of full time
experience as a front-end dev to compensate.

My first job after I earned my bachelors was as a front end developer and I
was only making 4k a month (in Minnesota circa 2012) however it took me 8
months of searching (i think i cold called/submitted resumes to 50+ companies)
and enlisting the help of two separate creative recruiting agencies as well as
other individual recruiters who contacted me through sites like monster etc.
It took that many people to help me find a job even when I had a 4 year degree
from a school with a name that carried weight in the local community.

I tested the waters in SF as well by sending resumes to a few startups and I
got a call one day from a recruiter. He went on to tell me that he really
liked my design work and that I had a good eye for it but unfortunately my
resume was simply too lacking in experience and no one was going to even
consider me without 2-3 years of full time experience. He was really cool
about it, taking the time out of his day to help me level me expectations as
well as giving me some advice.

My suggestion would be to pursue a degree, even if it's just an associates. It
would really be a shame to be denied a promotion so late in your career
because you don't have a degree.

------
finder83
The two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Though it's extremely
difficult to get a degree while working (and cash-flowing the whole thing, not
going into debt), it's the route that I chose via an online school. In
reality, it meant going to school closer to 6 years rather than 4 for a
degree, but I will be graduating in May and already have a job that makes
nearly $100k a year, with no student loan debt. If you have the ability,
skill, and discipline to do both at the same time, I wouldn't entirely suggest
against it. (More companies are open to developers that are seeking a degree
than those that simply don't have it as well)

I won't lie...it is tough, particularly with a family. But I think in a way it
gives you both the practical viewpoint and the theoretical viewpoints of
programming both together.

Also, school doesn't have to cost 50-100k...unless you get into a top 10
school and are favored, it may not be worth it to go to such an expensive
school.

If you're already good at development though, I think that getting the
experience is more lucrative, but the degree more rewarding.

------
patrickg_zill
There may be a way, depending on your exact situation, to both reduce the need
for loans, and still do college... it depends on motivation and your level of
discipline.

1\. Use exams such as CLEP to be able to bypass certain intro courses. In such
cases, you could enter university with 10% or so of the required credits to
graduate, "in the bag" on your first day of classes.

2\. You may be able to find an employer that will take you on, and, pay for
some or all of your schooling. A bit more of a long shot; and, you would be
taking longer to complete a degree, as well as having to give up some evenings
due to classes being taught at night.

3\. I would suggest up-front, that you expect or anticipate being disappointed
with some parts of your university experience.

Bluntly, most students will not have the drive or the intellectual curiosity
you exhibit. Some of them will treat school as 4 years of partying, chasing
women, and drinking or doing recreational drugs, and have an attitude of "I
need to go to college to get my ticket punched".

4\. Your internships might be a good source of contacts - most people are
willing to help out with advice, especially if they have worked with you
before and respect your work ethic. That can pay off in recommendation
letters, suggestions for scholarships, etc.

5\. You should try to clarify your goals, if you do decide to attend - what
are some of the skills and capabilities that you should retain after you
leave? Perhaps there are "soft skills" you can learn, like speaking in front
of people with confidence, giving presentations to a group; and "hard skills"
like mathematics or even some basics in electrical engineering, chemistry,
etc.

I would suggest that you try as much as possible to avoid debt, especially
since student debt is not able to be discharged, even in bankruptcy (most of
the time).

------
ctdonath
Yes. The point of a degree is to ensure you learn enough about the right
content/concepts without proceeding with gaping/gratuitous hold in your
education. Self-taught certainly can work, but better that you have dozens of
well-informed experts review every aspect of what you need to know. A degree
also assures employers of the breadth & depth of your knowledge without having
to deeply examine you themselves. Yes, the process isn't perfect, but it's
better than the gross ignorance I've seen in some surprisingly well-placed
people.

Now, if you're confident enough in your current talents, strike out into the
workforce and earn what you can until you (A) can pay cash (yes, cash) for
that degree, and (B) you can figure out where that cash will be best spent.
You can also persuade some employers to pay for the degree, saving you a
bundle.

Whatever you do, _don 't go into debt for it_. Cash only. For everything, not
just a degree.

------
brighton36
If you have the discipline to teach yourself front-end engineering in high
school, you have the discipline to teach yourself anything in realm of applied
computer science. Github has replaced the college degree in this field, and
differentiating yourself from the rest of the competition is pretty easy to do
if you stick to a meaningful path of self-improvement.

Paying $50k for a college degree in computer science is ludicrous. Most of the
people here who are telling you to do so are probably more interested in
retaining the value of their own investment, by influencing the next
generation to make the same decision. If there's value in having a college
degree - your employer will reimburse you for tuition expenses. If they refuse
to do so, it's a tacit admission that the value it adds to your output is
worthless to them.

------
mclenithan
Don't go to an expensive school. Second, work while you go to school. Lastly,
you don't have to finish and get the degree, just get the foundations of what
you need and a few great connections.

If you don't go to college, you won't get college experiences. Trust me,
college experiences are some of the best in life.

If you go to a super expensive school and don't work, really depends on how
much money mommy and daddy got, plus you don't want to be they guy who shows
up for a Web Dev position with all your fun algorithmic theories but you hand
code new functionality like a chump.

Either way, you'll be fine if you're typing if-then statements but get some
life experience, too, or else you'll just be a nerd with no stories, aka
lonely.

------
pdabbadabba
You're getting a lot of good advice in this thread, but here is something else
to consider: you may feel committed to front-end engineering now, but have the
wisdom to understand that you are young and have a lot of new experiences
ahead of you. When I graduated high school, I made the decision to go straight
into the workforce as you are considering doing. I had no trouble finding
work. (Though I second what others are telling you: some avenues WILL be
closed to you if you have no college degree -- not all, and not necessarily
the ones you want, but some.) What I began to realize, though, is that, as
much as I loved coding, I didn't want to structure my life in a way in a way
that locked me into one thing so early. Among its many other benefits, college
is a great opportunity to take a step back, learn widely, and, at the least,
become a more well rounded human being, but quite possibly you will also
discover that there is something out there you love more. It's not impossible
to change your mind, and go back to college later if you want to. But it's
much easier, and you'll have a better experience, if you do it now.

My personal tale, in a nutshell, is that I went to college after a few years
working (nothing wrong with taking a few years to try it out, as others have
mentioned) and studied philosophy, of all things. Now I'm a
telecommunications/media/first amendment lawyer. Life is funny -- and, more to
the point, full of surprising possibilities. Don't shut them out.

On another point, you should not have to take out $50-100,000 in loans for
college. There are programs out there that are worth that much, but not many.
I graduated from a top-tier university with a grand total of $4,500 in debt,
without a cent of financial aid. Go to a public school, and work your way
through. If you're capable of going straight into the workforce out of high
school, you are capable of working your way through a public university as
well. If you live in one of the few states with no state university worth
going to, move yourself to California, Virginia, Texas, or Michigan. Work for
a few years to earn your resident status, then enjoy the wonders of an elite,
public-school education.

------
tzs
> I'm also quite worried about the debt load that a degree would require. I
> anticipate having to take out between $50,000 and $100,000 in loans to
> finance a degree.

That makes it sound like you are looking at a first tier state school. Have
you considered looking into a top private school, like MIT, Stanford, Caltech,
Princeton, Harvard, or similar? If you are from a middle class or below
family, these schools will offer aid packages that cover most of your costs by
grants rather than loans. Even if your family makes quite a bit more than
middle class, you should be able to get out of those schools with well under
$50k in debt.

------
blainsmith
If you are going for CS then just stick with a state school education. I
regret going to RPI and Harvard and ending up with enormous school loans, but
at the time I thought I need to be at a well known school in order to succeed.

------
sentenza
If you want to get around the debt, go to a university in Europe. It will
require a lot of planning and you should make sure you are up for the culture
shock, but you will get a degree without ruining yourself.

Cost of living remains, of course, but University attendance in many non-
English speaking countries is (practically) free of charge, even for non-
Schengeners.

Here is a list of countries that, to my impression, seems fairly accurate:

[http://www.scholars4dev.com/4031/list-of-european-
countries-...](http://www.scholars4dev.com/4031/list-of-european-countries-
with-tuition-freelow-tuition-universities-colleges/)

------
bluedino
Enjoy four years of friends, learning, and not having to work every day. You
never know where it will take you, if you decide in two years you hate it you
can still get a development job.

Why are you so eager to jump into the 9-5?

------
scep12
The CS degree isn't worth what you'd have to pay for it, but you'll need the
knowledge later in your career. Your intuition that "I'm also worried that not
pursuing a degree will exclude me from certain well-paying jobs, especially
later in my career" is spot-on.

My advice is this: If you have the discipline to take night classes, see if
you can pursue the degree part-time while working part-time. Taking one or two
classes at a time - especially in CS where you have a bit of experience -
should be a breeze.

------
killercup
Lucrative? I don't know, and I don't even care.

Will you be better at your job? Yes. Because you'll learn abstract concepts
that you can apply to learn 'new things' more quickly and understand them more
deeply.

If it's about the money you need to pay for college: Would you be willing to
study abroad? I'm studying Computer Science in Germany and pay about 250€
($350) per semester (incl. access to public transportation but of course
without rent, food, etc).

------
okaram
Porque no los dos ? (said in annoying taco-commercial voice)

If you can truly get a 60-80K job, then do it and go to school part-time; if
you prefer, go to college full-time, and work part-time; if you make 30K, then
you can attend college and come out debt-free. You won't be the first or the
last person to work while in college.

A degree is very important; both for the education and for the piece of paper;
however, it does not have to be full-time, or done in 4 years.

------
gettingreal
The 4 years of college (3 here in the uk) will open doors for you that may not
open otherwise.

You will be able to explore opportunities (should you want to) that you wont
be able to explore without a degree. Thats just the truth right now.

So if you are sure you are okay with the limitations, then eschew college.

But realise that 3 years is a relatively short amount of time. It will pass
before you know it and would do your future no harm.

Plus you can work in college. I do/did it.

------
cantbelieveit
If you can really get a 60-80k job out of high school, honestly, you're smart
enough to get by without the degree. Seriously. Congrats on being awesome. (or
believing you are)

But my advice as someone that didn't do the whole college thing... Go to
college.

Go to college for the experience, both academic and personal.

You won't look back 10 years from now thinking "Dammit, I sure am mad at
myself for going to college."

------
srs0001
Why not seek out a frontend job directly out of high school?

Improve your skills on the job. If you feel like you need a CS degree after a
year or two of work, then you can always get one—perhaps then you won't have
to take out as much of a loan.

------
Nickoladze
If not for the education, college helps you learn a lot about meshing with
people from different backgrounds. It's also a lot easier to get 'a foot in
the door' with various companies if your college holds job fairs.

------
sharemywin
college is about more than money. state colleges will be a better value.
community colleges will save you money for the first 2 years. The classes
might not even teach you relevant languages and such. A friend needed to take
an extra class in .net at a local community college after graduating from OSU.
you could also look at doing both, pay for college with moderately well paying
job.

------
StevePerkins
I kind of fall in between the two streams of responses here.

On one hand, I feel that most of what I've REALLY learned about CS came after
graduation. To be sure, I memorized a lot in school, at least long enough to
regurgitate it on tests or briefly apply it in contrived class projects.
However, I didn't permanently ABSORB that knowledge until entering the
workplace. Working on non-trivial projects, enduring code reviews with very
smart senior people, etc.

Perhaps having gone through a CS curriculum left marks on my subconscious, and
made it easier to learn in the real world. I don't know. However, I certainly
felt like a babe in the woods at my first job after graduation. A CS program
did not equip me for the brass tacks I needed as a junior level programmer. By
the time I reached the point in my career when I was making design decisions
and needed strong CS knowledge, I was years out of school and was learning (or
re-learning) those concepts through other means.

On the other hand, I would say that it's foolishly short-sighted to forgo the
credential on your resume. It is less important when you're young, and working
for startups or small shops. However, with age you will eventually find
yourself working for larger and more conservative companies (yes, there are
exceptions to the rule, but how many 60-year old coders to you meet at the
typical startup?). You simply MUST have a degree in order to get past the H.R.
drones in those environments. Hell, this is still OFTEN the case even in small
shops.

You can get around this glass ceiling by going into business for yourself.
Running your own startup, or consulting practice... building a network,
drumming up clients, and bypassing H.R. However, not everyone is made for that
life. It's really more of a business career than it is a technical one. Also,
what sounds exciting in your 20's might be a completely different story when
you're in your 40's with a family... but at that point you're still 20+ years
from retirement!

To sum it up, I don't know that you need a degree to be a strong software
developer... but it IS a really important credential for the long-haul, which
is easier to get under your belt when you're young. I should add that there's
NO need to spend $100K or more on this. Although you need a degree to get past
many H.R. drones, no one cares where your degree came from (or oftentimes
whether you majored in CS even!).

If I were 18-years old now, in today's climate of crazy tuition costs, I would
go route of spending two years in community college knocking out my core, and
then transfer to a university for my major. Only the university shows up on
your resume anyway, and no one cares. At the very least, I would attend a
state school rather than a private institution. You might even consider
pursuing your degree through night classes, while working by day. That's a
PAINFUL lifestyle, but much more doable when you're young and don't have a
family yet.

------
jerf
"I'm also quite worried about the debt load that a degree would require. I
anticipate having to take out between $50,000 and $100,000 in loans to finance
a degree."

You may want to consider if you can do better than that. My Bachelor's and
Master's are from Michigan State University. There is little (though not
_quite_ zero) evidence to suggest that there are radically better programs out
there, because so much of what you get out of a college depends on _you_. (I
wish I'd done better, I certainly could have done worse. But I can definitely
attest that top-tier != awesome skills; I've given interviews that are
definite counterexamples.) Double check, because some state university
programs do seem to be wastes of time, but by no means all of them.

College is an easy, but expensive, way to acquire certain skills that, yes,
will indeed future-proof your career. It is easy in that you will be guided
through a useful course of study; it is expensive in that it requires not only
some money, but also a lot of time.

One way to resolve the matter is to try your best to work with a counselor to
up the quality of what courses you take. While this is poorly advertised, a
degree is ultimately a certification from the certifying body that you have
completed their minimal course of study. The set of requirements they lay out
front is their default answer, but they can give others. While they will
probably be inflexible on the number of requisite credit hours, they're often
quite flexible in terms of what those credit hours can really be, and in
particular they can be quite flexible in terms of substituting harder courses
for easier ones. Consider trying to skip over the intro courses, as that will
particularly open up the more advanced tier earlier. Much of the real value of
a college degree is in the higher level courses; if you can get there faster,
go for it.

I'd honestly think about a dozen times about taking on $50,000-$100,000 in
debt right now if that's really the only choice you can find, though. That's
frankly catastrophic levels of debt at the beginning of a career. One nice
thing about the computer career path is that you will be able to handle it,
but even so it's a burden, and if you have any sort of life hiccup this level
of debt can become a big problem. I'd seriously consider grabbing a job, doing
my best to pocket as much cash as possible, and wait for the post-bubble-pop
to get your formal education (taking the previous paragraph even more fully to
heart at that point). You may also discover that you do indeed have the
discipline to pick up the harder stuff on your own. (The touchstone for that,
IMHO, is whether you can teach yourself how to build a compiler; if you can do
that, you can probably self-educate just fine.) It's hard to be sure when and
if the bubble will pop, so it's a risk, but at this point, so is taking on
that amount of debt. Alas, there are no non-risk choices.

So, no quick & easy answers. I'd be suspicious of anyone in this thread who
offers one. But the question becomes much easier if you can work out a way to
take on substantially less debt, though.

------
etanazir
Do it on-line.

------
michaelochurch
_I anticipate having to take out between $50,000 and $100,000 in loans to
finance a degree._

I hate to say it, but you've been fucked up the ass. It's not your fault, just
when and where you are born. The Boomers stole the future and that's why
housing and education are so expensive. The higher education industry has been
using its gateway to the middle-class job market as a extortion racket for
decades, erecting gigantic buildings while depriving the middle class of
savings-- sapping parents of the upper-middle-class and putting the lower-
middle aka "working" class (sorry, but that's you, if you're worried about
$50-100k of debt) into indentured servitude. It's bullshit, it's horrible,
it's wasteful, and it's wrong. It's not at all your fault. But we can't change
any of that, now can we?

First of all, _yes_ you should go. I actually think you should aim for
Stanford or Harvard if you can pass admissions. I'd advise a state school with
a full ride over Harvard with debt, but if you're already going to be in debt,
you might as well swing for the fences. The quality of education isn't that
much better (variations within schools-- of professor, class, and student
quality-- are much greater than those between them) but the connections and
brand matter, especially if you want to do Silicon Valley or Wall Street.

Degree snobbery is _huge_ , even in software. People don't admit to it,
because it's socially unacceptable-- let's be honest, here; even the
supposedly meritocratic game of college admissions is 75% socioeconomic
status-- but that's the truth. You might be able to establish yourself in
front-end engineering, develop independent credibility, and move forward from
there. Might. If the market goes south, you'll be one of the first ones
sloughed off. Also, when you're 35-- I'm 30 and age comes quicker than you'd
think-- you might get tired of typical software bullshit and want to move into
R&D, or go for finance, or to become a founder. All of those are going to want
to see degrees, and good ones. (UIUC is good, especially for graduate school.
Stanford will open the Valley; Harvard's best if you want Wall Street.) Most
R&D labs have PhD Bigotry issues, and Wall Street isn't bigoted _per se_ but
is just really competitive and the degree can cut you in.

Here's one thing about degrees. I went to a great but not-that-well-known
undergraduate college (Carleton, in MN). I do not have a graduate degree (did
one year in a math PhD program, left for Wall Street). Now, to be blunt, I'm
smart as fuck and top-5% material (probably top-1%) even in the Harvard,
Stanford, MIT pool that is chasing venture funding away. If I need to prove my
intelligence, I always can, and it's not hard for me. _But_ it is always
better to be presumed smart than to have to prove it. Why? Because impressions
are made quickly (120 seconds) and it's really hard (nearly impossible) to
prove top-flight intelligence _quickly_ without also being socially
unacceptable (or, in clearer terms, sounding smart but full of yourself).
Better to have your degree talk you up for you; it can be your career wingman.
Degrees fucking matter; don't listen to the people who say otherwise. They're
divided between people who don't have elite degrees and are deluding
themselves or unaware of the opportunities they're missing, and those who do
have the degrees but want to downplay their effect (for obvious reasons).

You may want to work for 2 years and build up some savings and work experience
(in light of the $60-80k job, if that's available to you). That can also make
you "nontraditional" and it can help you in admissions. You may also want to
apply for scholarships in that time. I wouldn't take more than 2 years out of
education, though, and only for full-time employment is it socially acceptable
(in the US) to take a gap year. Non-work, non-military gap years for Americans
scream "upper-middle-class shiftless fuck"\-- you know, the idiots who
"travel" on their parents' dime to "find themselves" and really just drink and
slut it up-- even if you're the opposite of that. But you can justify a work
gap year or two by just saying, matter-of-factly, that you needed the money.
No one will question you further. People who can pay their way though college,
this day in age, are impressive as fuck because that ain't easy.

There are also subjective reasons to go to college. Computer science is a
really beautiful field and even I find myself wishing I knew more about it. I
won't cover them as much. Some people learn a ton without schooling, others go
to impressive schools and learn nothing. That one's more up to you. I think
the objective case for getting your degree is much stronger.

Good luck. And read hglaser's post. He says a lot of things I would have
included in mine but he already covered them.

