
Reach Out and Touch Faith - Vigier
https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/reach-out-and-touch-faith
======
trhway
i think these relics and the likes can make one see the side of the argument
that the Church has a lot of idolatry going while the Church applies a lot of
theological argument trying to explain the difference between their practices
and the idolatry. Looks like Luther wasn't much impressed by it :)

Reminded about talking to some people in Mexico who explained to me that from
some point of view there is not that much difference between the human
sacrifice as was practiced by say Aztecs there and the human sacrifice
performed upon Jesus.

~~~
jabretti
For the most part, as in this case, it seems like idolatry tends to emerge
from the bottom up rather than being decreed from the top down.

The Pope and Cardinals would really prefer it if people would pray to a nice
abstract God in a nice abstract sort of way, but superstitious common people
really want to be able to have a nice neat physical object that they can
entreat for the safe return of car keys and the like, and these two streams
reach an uneasy compromise at the local priest's level.

~~~
chewz
I am Polish. In 1984 young priest had been kidnapped, tortured and murdered by
communist political police. The Church made him beatified and a martyr in
2010. [^1]

Additionally they have exhumated his body and cut pieces for reliquaries.

Recently retired bishop of Cracov[^2] and former personal sectretary of Polish
Pope Jan Paul II keeps a vial with blood of Jan Paul II (taken from his body
on a deathbed) and used that as source of influence.

It all happens in XXI century and by people who are the top of hierarchy of
Catholic Church in Poland. So this idolatory is deeply rooted at highest level
of hierachy.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Popiełuszko](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Popiełuszko)

[2]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Dziwisz](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Dziwisz)

~~~
kakarot
Symbolism is a powerful thing, isn't it? It holds all the power in our lives,
bestowing meaning upon one thing and withholding it from another.

I certainly don't mean to justify modern organized religion, but it seems
without a strong sense of symbolism and a bit of superstition to hold it in
place, it's hard to get anyone to subscribe to your cause.

We see this kind of dramatic rhetoric everywhere we turn as people vie for our
attention and support, irrespective of the organization. How are we supposed
to protect the masses from such a profound system of control without engaging
in symbolic gestures ourselves?

~~~
trhway
symbolism is the wine symbolizing the blood of Christ or say wearing a cross
symbolizing the Crucifixion.

A piece of wood or a nail which were supposedly taken from the real
Crusifixion - this is pure idolatry. Ditto for the blood of a former Pope,
pieces of body, etc.

~~~
dfee
Catholicism does not believe that the wine is a symbol. The wine is believed
to be the actual blood. This is known as transubstantiation.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation)

~~~
kakarot
My step-grandmother spilled some wine on the alter once at the end of mass and
was enthralled by how, in her eyes, it stained the way blood would and not
wine. She took that as a sign. People see what they want to see, I guess.

~~~
michaelsbradley
Not to knock your grandmother, but that sounds a bit on the superstitious
side, though probably motivated by reverence for the Precious Blood, i.e. the
consecrated wine.

The Catholic belief is that all the observable properties of the bread and
wine remain (the "accidents", philosophical term; in modern terms, its
chemical properties and so on) while the "substance" (another philosophical
term — think essence, what it truly is objectively) has been changed into the
sacred humanity of Jesus Christ. Since his humanity is forever united to his
divinity from the time his human nature was conceived in his mother's womb,
the "whole Jesus," God himself, is present under what are only the appearances
of bread and wine following the consecration.

In a hymn[+] attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas, it is explained in this way:

"Hidden God, devoutly I adore Thee, truly present underneath these veils...
Not to sight, or taste, or touch be credit, hearing only do we trust secure; I
believe, for God the Son has said it — Word of truth that ever shall endure.
On the cross was veiled Thy Godhead's splendor, here Thy manhood lies hidden
too; unto both alike my faith I render."

The "God has said it" phrase is in reference to the bread of life discourse in
the Gospel of John, chapter 6, as well the Last Supper accounts in the Gospels
of Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

[+] [http://www.preces-
latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/AdoroTe.html](http://www.preces-
latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/AdoroTe.html)

~~~
kakarot
I guess you couldn't tell, but I'm knocking her pretty hard. It's more than a
bit superstitious. It's religious.

I'm very familiar with the Catholic belief system, I was an unwilling
participant in the Catholic church for my entire childhood and have members of
the clergy in my family.

She wouldn't accept that the wine and bread are believed to remain the same
chemically (a cop-out to evade criticism from modern science), and pushing it
any further would have invited a punishment or beating, so I let her have it.

Like I said, people see what they want to see. As Eckhart Tolle puts it, “Man
made God in his own image.”

~~~
michaelsbradley
Religion is a virtue, classically speaking:

"The moral virtue by which a person is disposed to render to God the worship
and service he deserves. It is sometimes identified with the virtue of justice
toward God, whose rights are rooted in his complete dominion over all
creation. Religion is also a composite of all the virtues that arise from a
human being's relationship to God as the author of his or her being, even as
love is a cluster of all the virtues arising from human response to God as the
destiny of his or her being. Religion thus corresponds to the practice of
piety toward God as Creator of the universe. (Etym. probably Latin religare,
to tie , fasten, bind, or relegere, to gather up, treat with care.)"

[http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/in...](http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=36024)

The virtue proper is in many respects the very opposite of superstition; like
any virtue, it must be cultivated in a personal and deliberate manner and is
ultimately a matter of interior orientation.

I'm sorry for your bad experiences and your feeling forced to participate in
the Catholic Faith. Many Catholics I know, from very young to very old, love
Christ and His Church, and I know more than several who have sacrificed much
to become Catholic. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but just keep
in mind that your personal experiences may not encompass the whole reality of
the Church.

~~~
kakarot
You think I haven't heard that one before?

I was consistently top of the class in my religious studies and by no
coincidence the only one who didn't identify as a Christian.

My understanding of the Catholic faith, Abrahamic religions in general, and
their pagan origins, stems from a historic and analytic approach to theology
and my personal experiences simply reaffirm what I understand the Catholic
Church to be. A system of control that operates via moral gatekeeping, social
defamation, and historically threats of violence.

The Church was the embodiment of anti-science dogma for centuries, the bastion
of bloody wars of conquest, and is responsible for destroying the lives of
countless individuals to remain in power and stave off any changes to the
socioeconomic status quo.

The Church you think you support and the Church as it is are two separate
things, and you cannot see the forest for the trees when you are in the thick
of it.

This isn't the kind of discussion the mods like on HN and I don't wish to be
chastised, so let's not discuss further.

~~~
michaelsbradley
I hope you did not get the impression my previous reply had an air of
chastisement; and if you did, then I'm sorry, as I did not intend it that way,
nor did I have any intention of chastising you in future replies.

You're right, HN is not the place for an extended discussion of these matters.
In a polite way, I would note that I believe some of the latent assertions in
your previous reply are not factual, based on my own studies of the Church's
history, including the bright spots as well the ugly sores. I wish you all the
best, and if you'd ever like to discuss any of the points further, feel free
to send me an email.

~~~
kakarot
I meant I don't want to be chastised by the mods, is all.

