

Observations From a Tipless Restaurant, Part 5: Sex, Power and Tips - merrick
http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-tipless-restaurant-part-5-sex-power-tips/

======
Jun8
This is a very interesting but dangerous post: It's interesting because
obviously the author has put a lot of thought into the topic and has done
_some_ research. However, for me, it clearly shows the danger of ideology, in
fact it's a great example of it. "To be ideological is to preconceive
reality." and we have a good example of that here: The author has strong
opinions about sexuality and our approaches to it, there's nothing wrong with
this, it's a prior. But then he starts using bits of "proofs", examples from
music and literature, and the tipping experiment to bolster these claims.

Take the claim "The meme of sleeping with our waitress is important to
Americans." This may or may not be true (why Americans are singled out is an
interesting questions). He then cites a song, a _sex and the City_ episode and
a bartender's essay to back this up.

The later part of the post is devoted to an analysis of how our monogamous
human sexuality evolved, based on text lifted off from a single book. And
towards the end he switches to the notion of the waitress as a "sexual
worker".

Now for the interesting part. Although his non-tipping restaurant experiment
did NOT provide any proof for his theory he still views it as if it did on
hypothetical grounds.

For a much better treatment of some of these ideas, consider:
[http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_evolu...](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_evolution/2012/10/are_humans_monogamous_or_polygamous_the_evolution_of_human_mating_strategies_.html)

~~~
hiram333
I don't fully get this. It's the nth article about non technical topics I come
across where the first comments start with ripping the content and the author
apart. Always in such a subtle but mental and aggressive way. The other
article which comes to mind was the post about the 10 simple things which make
you happier from yesterday.

It seems to reflect how narrow minded this community outside of technical
problems and business models actually is.

~~~
Isamu
Hold on. It's reasonable to critique an article on the basis of the evidence
given (or the lack thereof.) That is what the parent commenter is doing.

It is a big theme in HN, but why not give all ideas the same treatment? What
is your thesis, your pitch, and have you made your case? What are the holes,
where do you need work?

How do you evaluate ideas, if not by critique?

------
Fuzzwah
I enjoyed the discussion here on HN regarding the 2nd article in this series:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6126926](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6126926)

This time around the early comments all seem to be negative.

I've now read the 5 published articles and have been really impressed with the
this guy's insights. They have greatly aligned with what I've noticed, as
someone who was born and raised in a non-tipping culture (I'm Australian) and
who has come to live in the US two years ago (at the age of 34).

Back in Australia I had tipped in restaurants on occasion, to reward amazing
service, excellent dining experiences and to be honest as a form of
flirtation.

Coming to the US where you "have" to tip I noticed a real difference in the
experience. Overly attentive servers, forced friendliness, expectations from
both sides.... just different.

Trying to explain these things to my American friends was difficult. But I
think these articles have really summed it up well.

------
merrick
I found the series of articles as a whole to be an enlightening account from
the perspective of a restaurateur who tried new things in San Diego.

This was Part of 5 of a series that begins here:

[http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-
tipless-...](http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-tipless-
restaurant-part-1-overview/)

Prior to this aside from being a patron of restaurants my only knowledge of
the restaurant biz was based on Setting the Table which Fred Wilson blogged
about here:

[http://avc.blogs.com/a_vc/2007/01/setting_the_tab.html](http://avc.blogs.com/a_vc/2007/01/setting_the_tab.html)

------
jongraehl
This reminds me of an Amtrak ride along the CA coast, where the 50yo man next
to me enjoyed sparring w/ the young female stewardess/whatever over the course
of several hours, until the climax: he offered to take her into a bathroom and
put her on a diaper changing table. I don't believe she was thrilled to hear
the proposal.

There are men like that. So what? Long-winded article w/ poor quality of
evidence and thinking.

------
jpollock
In New Zealand, there is typically no tipping (it reflects excellent service,
instead of expected), it's already built into the price - not even listed as a
fixed service charge percentage.

Perhaps the complaints have more to do with seeing something listed on the
bill that you didn't order. If it was removed entirely instead of being
presented as a tax, that might change the response.

~~~
discodave
But then the prices of the food would be more expensive to compensate, which
is arguably the reason that the tipping culture has been created in the first
place.

------
crazygringo
> _I’m proposing that tipping allows us to assign women a role where any
> sexuality they display can be attributed not to their desires but instead to
> their greed for money. In doing so, we both dehumanize and desexualize
> women, in large numbers._

Sorry, but as merely a "guy's opinion", this is pretty worthless. Maybe if he
brought in some quotes from actual women working as waitresses, it would be
more convincing and he could make a case.

But it's just far, far too simplistic. Maybe some guys look at waitresses that
way... but that doesn't mean all of them do, or even a majority do. Lots of
people disrespect lots of service workers, period. And why stop with women?
What about hunky bartenders hired for their biceps or handsome faces, to
attract a nice female clientele? Are they dehumanized as well?

This blog posts starts out with some interesting observations, but quickly
veers into drawing unwarranted universal conclusions, making waaaay too many
assumptions.

------
thoughtsimple
I tip more than 20% because the server minimum wage in Massachusetts is
$2.63/hour. It is that simple. You would be surprised the number of people who
think that a server is getting $8/hour with tips added on top.

I'm a heterosexual male in the age range that this guy is remarking on but I
tip male servers and older women the same as I tip younger women. He is
stereotyping. No doubt there are some who see tipping as a sexual power trip
but probably in no higher percentage than any other endeavor.

~~~
jere
Just because you're being altruistic doesn't mean everyone else is.

>No doubt there are some who see tipping as a sexual power trip but probably
in no higher percentage than any other endeavor.

I don't follow you. In what other aspect of everyday life is someone forced to
converse with you, meet your every whim, and then afterwards you get to decide
how much money they take home?

------
guard-of-terra
You never know where those fixed-service-percentage money go to.

I've visited quite a few 10% "service" restaurants and I often leave a small
tip on top of that because I'm entirely not sure whether waiters see any money
from that "service".

The whole scheme is ridiculous: If you pay 18% for service, what are you
paying the rest of 100% for? It doesn't make much sense. Just name your final
price.

~~~
seanalltogether
> and I often leave a small tip on top of that because I'm entirely not sure
> whether waiters see any money from that "service".

Isn't this a crazy sentiment though? It's like we've all been trained to pity
waiters and unless we're handing them money directly we're worried they might
go home empty handed. How did we get to this point?

~~~
guard-of-terra
Yeah it is a crazy sentiment.

If we weren't crazy on this part we would refuse paying anything not on the
bill. Like we do in grocery store.

------
vinceguidry
If you like this sort of analysis, try The Last Psychiatrist.

[http://thelastpsychiatrist.com](http://thelastpsychiatrist.com)

------
gambiting
I still find the entire idea of tipping to be super silly. Those people are
being paid to do their jobs,and you leave them tips if they do them well? Why?
I understand that in the US waiters are paid less because they also get
tips,but that entire system is wrong(in my personal opinion) - you are going
to a restaurant, you should be paying exactly what it says in the menu, not
more,not less.

~~~
Wingman4l7
The system of tipping in the US is used to skirt around minimum wage laws and
to push the cost of labor onto the customer, which makes eating out at
restaurants seem deceptively cheaper than in other countries.

~~~
nkurz
And the servers are often happy with this arrangement, because unlike a higher
wage, the cash tips are rarely correctly reported as income and thus perceived
as tax-free. Other than the damage to rule-of-law and personal integrity,
everyone wins!

------
JackFr
These articles are repetitive, overly wordy, patronizing, pretend-smart and
filled with straw men and other logical fallacies, and finally simply not that
interesting.

------
ratscabies
My wife gets angry if I don't tip 20%, so a place with a built in tip that is
less is a bonus for me.

