
Nuclear material worth $72M seized in a car in Turkey - yasp
https://www.israelhayom.com/2019/07/07/nuclear-weapon-material-worth-72m-seized-in-a-car-in-turkey/
======
Someone1234
This paragraph later in the article is odd:

> In March 2018, police in Ankara seized a whopping 1.4 kilograms (3.1 pounds)
> of a substance, believed to be Californium, in a car following a tipoff.
> That time, however, the substance turned out to be organic with no nuclear
> or radioactive properties.

That's a strange way of saying they seized "a whopping 1.4 kilograms" of
nothing. Kind of makes you question the merits of this story/seizure.

Least of all since them seizing the wrong thing a second time seems far more
likely than someone driving around with $72M worth of a rare substance which
can only be made in two places on earth (neither of which are Turkey).

~~~
atemerev
Nuclear smuggling is relatively commonplace. I can recommend the book "Nuclear
Forensic Analysis" by Ian D. Hutcheon, Kenton J. Moody, and Patrick M. Grant
for those who are interested in the details. Minor quantities of genuine
nuclear materials (tens of grams of plutonium) are seized at borders about
once per year. Cases dealing with major (kilogram) quantities seem to be
classified, but I have little doubt they exist.

~~~
solveit
I'm sure they exist, but there are no cases involving kilograms of Californium
since there exist maybe ten grams of the stuff in the entire world.

~~~
mehrdadn
Ten grams in the entire world? I see photos of what is claimed to be solid
californium here... is that fake:
[http://www.chemistrylearner.com/californium.html](http://www.chemistrylearner.com/californium.html)

~~~
petschge
The image labeled "Californium bullet" actually shows laboratory neutron
sources that contain 5 mg of Californium. The rest of the "bullet" is actually
a stainless steel casing. The metal shaving further down the page are most
likely microscopic, but as no length scale is given it is hard to estimate the
mass.

~~~
ars
That website also claims Californium is used to make jewelry. Personally I
have my doubts about that

------
Merrill
According to
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californium#Production](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californium#Production)
"Only two sites produce californium-252: the Oak Ridge National Laboratory in
the United States, and the Research Institute of Atomic Reactors in
Dimitrovgrad, Russia. As of 2003, the two sites produce 0.25 grams and 0.025
grams of californium-252 per year, respectively."

So it seems that the Turks have seized about 66 years of production.

~~~
mrtksn
Probably because it's fake news. This format pops up every once in a while,
"The police seized x amount of y nuclear material worth z million dollars".
It's usually Californium or phosphorus...

This is from the last year and even has photos:
[http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/ankarada-nukleer-madde-
ope...](http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/ankarada-nukleer-madde-operasyonu-
kaliforniyum-maddesi-ele-gecirildi-40777178)

Does this look like a Californium to you?

~~~
novaleaf
seems like this article should be flagged....

~~~
reallydude
since it's clearly a fabrication to serve some sort of fear-monger campaign.

------
mrtksn
It's fake news.

Here is the same "news" from the last year with pictures of the siezed
Californium: [http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/ankarada-nukleer-madde-
ope...](http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/ankarada-nukleer-madde-operasyonu-
kaliforniyum-maddesi-ele-gecirildi-40777178)

This "news" pops up every once in awhile, it can be Californium but it can be
some exotic phosphorus too. I guess it depends on the creative mood of the
journalist.

I flagged this.

------
anonu
When I read such stories, I wonder what the real story is. It's never the one
that appears in the news.

~~~
novaleaf
look at the domain name.

~~~
anonu
Good point. I noticed that right after I made the comment.

Is it a stretch to believe that Israeli and Turkish security services are in
contact with each other ... Despite headlined animosity between the 2
countries?

~~~
novaleaf
A great deal of Israel's history and culture revolve around existential risks.
I think this newspaper is just catering to it's audience.

See other HN submissions for it:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=israelhayom.com](https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=israelhayom.com)

------
atemerev
I do not understand how people involved are still alive. Californium-252 is
one of the most efficient neutron sources available; it is really hard to
protect against neutron radiation, and it will activate all materials nearby.
Keeping 18g of californium "in the car" is a certain death sentence (and will
require hazmat cleanup of epic proportions).

Here's how a container suitable for safe transportation of _one_ gram of
californium looks like:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californium#/media/File:CfShie...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californium#/media/File:CfShield.JPG)

~~~
ggm
Thats safe transportation for avoidance of accidents. If I was smuggling this
stuff, I'd use a mule, and I'd pick one who had no consciousness of how
dangerous the materials were, and I'd avoid contact with them directly.

I probably wouldn't care about the crash risk: if the cleanup crew is
decontaminating a border crossing down south, I can get through up north with
the other 1g.

Also, if the mule dies more than 72hrs later, I don't have to bother disposing
of the mule.

If you publish the airport thriller, I declare my interest (c)

~~~
seandougall
Even if you figure the mule is expendable, you'd at least want the car to make
it across reliably with the payload. I don't have a lot of experience in this
area, but doesn't it seem a bit implausible that the car's electronics would
work normally with that much radiation coming from the steering column?

~~~
DuskStar
It's not _that_ much radiation. And if it's an older car, 100nm+ processes
don't care quite so much about radiation as modern 10nm-class ones do.

------
rdtsc
Something is off here.

Here is how you transport Californium-252

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californium#/media/File:CfShie...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californium#/media/File:CfShield.JPG)

A giant flask filled with polyethylene or water (lead won't work). That's for
1 gram only!

18 grams is just a ridiculous amount. I suspect it is not Californium-252 but
another isotope (251?) or maybe not Californium at all.

But yeah it is the most expensive commercially produced substance currently.
And smuggling it would make sense from that point of view. However being
bombarded by deadly neutrons while handling it, probably ensures you won't be
doing it for long.

------
th0ma5
I remember a TedX talk where a gentleman said a dirty bomb is probably about
the best even a small rogue nation state could hope to pull off as nuclear
weapons are such a pain to deal with you really have to have the resources of
a very large country to even start:
[https://youtube.com/watch?v=AeodWP0B-pw](https://youtube.com/watch?v=AeodWP0B-pw)

~~~
mikeash
Was this before or after North Korea, with an economy around the size of
Botswana or Afghanistan, assembled a nuclear arsenal?

~~~
mises
In fairness to him, North Korea's nukes are not that much better than dirty
bombs and aren't super high-yield. N. Korea also has total control of the
economy because it is communist, so can starve her citizens to fund bomb
construction. That said, your point is good.

Does any one have a real idea to denuclearize rogue nations (N. Korea, Iran,
Pakistan, etc.)? All I've seen is both the Trump and Obama administrations
saying very nicely "please, please denuclearize" and imposing sanctions.
Problem being, bad nations don't care about their citizens. Could some one
please propose a method to _force_ denuclearization by an unwilling nation? Or
at least prevent them getting more?

~~~
Symmetry
In 2006 North Korea had a nuke little better than a dirty bomb. These days, in
2019, they've got a 250 kt thermonuclear bomb.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mas...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction)

~~~
th0ma5
Arguably _had_ a 250kt device, judging by seismic data, although they may have
killed a lot of people involved by detonating it? I'm just going by what is in
the linked articles from Wikipedia, although the Wikipedia articles themselves
don't mention it as it hasn't been independently announced as such by any non
media organization.

------
trhway
how to handle 18g of highly active neutron source

[https://twitter.com/i/status/1147464052869718018](https://twitter.com/i/status/1147464052869718018)

------
beloch
It's interesting that this happened in Bolu, which is nowhere near an
international border. I'd be curious to know what tipped the police off that
they should start tearing up carpet in this car. Were the smugglers stopped
for some other offence and things seemed fishy enough to warrant a search of
their vehicle?

~~~
alfiedotwtf
With stories like these, there's usually SIGINT involved, and a traffic
violation is the pretext for the "random pullover".

------
pcurve
That is some super expensive stuff by gram. Anyone know how they detect this?
Some movie material stuff.

~~~
atemerev
Neutron detectors. They are installed in many public places, customs, truck
scanning areas, airports etc. -- specifically to prevent nuclear materials
smuggling.

This one was easy -- californium is the among the most intensive neutron
sources, and 18g is a _huge_ amount of it. Any neutron detector worthy of its
name should have raised the alarm.

~~~
pretendscholar
Can you use something to evade detection? Like some sort of scattering device?

~~~
vermilingua
Suspend it in water, I would guess. How much water, is the important question.

~~~
foxyv
Right, so smuggle my Californium inside a rare shark swimming in a tank of
water. That would make for an interesting news story!

~~~
zrobotics
That would probably kill the shark entirely too quickly to be of any use...

~~~
elorant
Unless it's an art piece.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Physical_Impossibility_of_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Physical_Impossibility_of_Death_in_the_Mind_of_Someone_Living)

------
rtkwe
I keep hearing it said it's used in reactors and weapons but no one really has
any details about the weapon and the best I can find is you need about 5 kg
theoretically as the critical mass using it.

~~~
atemerev
It is a startup neutron source for nuclear reactors. It won't work as a
neutron initiator in nuclear weapons (since you can't regulate its neutron
flux), but it has the immense research value for criticality experiments if
you are running your own nuclear program.

P.S. you can't build a nuclear weapon out of californium, at all. To achieve
the nuclear explosion, you need to assemble the supercritical configuration
(minimum necessary k_eff about 1.53 for plutonium) without any stray neutrons
leading to premature initiation, then, at the precise moment, inject neutrons
in the system (even a single neutron is enough) to start the runaway chain
reaction. Californium excels at spontaneous fission; there are so many
neutrons in the system at any time, that premature initiation is guaranteed.

~~~
amluto
Premature ignition is not a problem for some boosted design, though, AIUI.

I imagine a big problem with trying to build a bomb is that the neutron
emission will make assembling and transporting the bomb extremely difficult.

~~~
atemerev
Not that I am aware of. The very difficulty of building a nuclear explosive
device is about premature initiation. Even if there were designs which could
make use of constant high-intensity compact neutron source (perhaps in the
fusion stage?), just putting it inside the weapon would be quite dangerous.
Still, compact neutron sources have their uses.

------
OedipusRex
How is something like Californium priced if it's bought on a national scale?

~~~
mises
I can only assume the same way most rare items are priced - whatever the buyer
and seller negotiate. The other option might be auction, but this doesn't
exactly work for nuclear materials.

~~~
cryptonector
If the seller produced it, then they would presumably charge a hefty premium
over the cost of production. If it "fell off the back of a truck", the seller
would probably sell it for a huge discount to the real value because, after
all, there won't be that very many buyers, and what buyers the seller can find
might not be able to muster the real value (or at least they'll try hard to
pay much less).

------
stevespang
If I did the math correctly, 18.1 grams of Californium emits 41,630,000
neutrons per second, so it's amazing the suspects are not dead.

