
Lulu: An App No One Should Accept - triplec1988
http://www.compylr.com/post/lulu-an-app-no-one-should-accept
======
chime
Wow, it's like everything that I used to fear about the dating world put into
one shiny app. Had this been out years ago when I was single, it would've
definitely given me a lot of anxiety. Having been happily married for 5 years,
all I can say to single folks is that if someone actively rates people on
apps/sites like this, they are most likely not the kind of people you want to
be with in the long run.

As for the startup/app itself, it's the natural evolution of taking HotOrNot
ratings + OKCupid profiles + Fuckedcompany gossip and building it into a neat
package. There is certainly a demand for apps like this in the market but if
you're a user, try to be nice even if you don't like someone. People can
become really mean when anonymous.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
Not to mention, female privilege lets them call men "creepers" or "perverts"
without question. I've pressed female friends about this and they just answer
with "I didnt like the look he gave me" or "we just didnt click."

So instead of understanding that most people are not compatible, we're now
building a db to slander them based on purely emotional reasoning?

If women are using this then it says a lot about the woman. I imagine the
women drawn to this are difficult anyway. This problem kind of solves itself.
I doubt this app can help them and its a symptom of a very negative attitude
toward dating and, frankly, socially acceptable misandry.

~~~
overgryphon
"Creepy" means "he made me feel threatened and unsafe". It's valuable
information for women to share within their social group so that they can
avoid uncomfortable situations.

Though it is not at all appropriate to share such information on a public
online forum.

~~~
FireBeyond
In theory, yes. I've seen more than one woman "confess" that creepiness was
more a factor of attraction - that the same behavior from two men was
considered creepy, unless the woman was attracted to one, in which case it was
considered acceptable, even positively (and though I'm wary of ascribing
fiction as another anecdote - witness female-oriented fiction, such as
Interview With A Vampire, Twilight, Fifty Shades of Grey as being heavily
tinged with behavior that, if there wasn't attraction, even if unexplored /
unannounced as yet, would be unacceptable).

------
antr
In recent times I've gotten the impression that their is a double standard
going on regarding certain (not all) services and events that are only
targeted to women.

If this had been an app for men rating and alerting them about certain women
all hell would of broke loose.

~~~
speeder
There are a couple of schools around the world targeted at men, or women...

One very interesting thing, is that schools targeted at women are seem as
"traditional" and "bastions" or "empowering", specially if they are ancient
and do have good education...

Men schools, once regarded in the same way, are now being attacked, one of the
best schools in the US for example is being sued for not taking female
students, and a common tag attached to them is "Backwards" or "medieval" or
"inquisitors"

If this was a US-only phenomenon, at least I would feel less troubled, except
even in Brazil we had a crazy problem...

During the government ranking of high schools (that is made with a test that
all high schools students in the country must take if they wish to join
university), the first place was a boys-only school.

This is a problem, because it drew attention to them, now there are all sorts
of discrimination lawsuits from parents of girls, and the media is bellowing
how "less worse" they are, because they accept female teachers, and that when
they did not accepted them they were evil, and now that they do they are less
evil, but that this would be only a truly good school when they start
accepting girls and change some of their authoritarian ways and become more
tolerating and egalitarian.

Or some issue with bars... Female only bars in Brazil are allowed and seen as
a female fun thing. Male only bars get the cops quickly called on them for
refusing entry of costumer based on gender. (Female-only are illegal too, but
cops ignore it).

Or one even crazier, it is common to employers to want to hire one gender or
other (for example they might want a woman to be the maintenance person of the
women's bathroom), yet although signs of "hiring female x" don't attract
problems, if you put a sign like "hiring male bathroom cleaner" you get
quickly sued for hiring discrimination (that is illegal).

I even had a business owner once complain that a woman sued him (and almost
won... a judge chance that allowed he win the case) for not hiring her as
attendant in a store for male intimate clothing... The first judge saw it
purely in the light of law: you cannot discriminate, period. the second judge
had more common sense on his head and imaginated that it would bring even more
legal problems to have a woman hanging around men that might want to become
naked (or almost naked depending on store policy regarding trying intimate
clothes) to choose his new clothes...

~~~
mkr-hn
> _Men schools, once regarded in the same way, are now being attacked, one of
> the best schools in the US for example is being sued for not taking female
> students, and a common tag attached to them is "Backwards" or "medieval" or
> "inquisitors"_

Which school?

~~~
duaneb
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_colleges_in_the_United_Sta...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_colleges_in_the_United_States#Traditional_institutions)

EDIT: I can't comment as to the criticism; I haven't heard any.

~~~
jiggy2011
He appears to be from brazil, maybe there are some there.

------
peterkelly
I used to be unhappy about this app until I found an SQL injection
vulnerability that allowed me to log in and access the accounts of my previous
dates by only needing to know their email addresses. This meant I was able to
manipulate the ratings and comments people had made about me. Now I like the
app :)

Thanks Lulu!

~~~
StavrosK
As the former CTO of that company, I really doubt this. When I was there, the
app was built on Django, and I left some pretty competent people behind, so
I'm quite sure they wouldn't have made a mistake so rudimentary.

However, I don't know what happened after I left, so there might have been
some dubious decisions.

~~~
shanelja
Facebook and Google have to do a lot of penetration tests to keep their
security in tip-top shape, sure, they have a much larger attack vector in
terms of code but my point is there:

 _Where there is public facing code, there is vulnerability._

Regardless of if you are built on Django, CodeIgniter, Rails or super-secret-
obfuscated-language-mark-two, no application is bullet proof and it would be
trivial for any highly skilled security tester to interface this way with your
database.

~~~
infinitone
Unless you built it on you know... a language that barely anyone uses and has
been reviewed and patched over the past 70 years. Like Fortran.

~~~
shanelja
Ahhh, but then you have to content with the 90 year old specialist Fortran
penetration checker. :)

------
neya
Where are all the feminists now?

This is the perfect example of double-standards implied by women. Imagine an
alternative scenario where men could rate their female counterparts on the
basis of their 'assets' as defined by some vague methodology. Imagine how much
fire under men would be, with ALL men being broadly labelled as sexists
because this app was targeted at men.

I am seriously asking - Where are all the feminists now? And their blind-
folded feminism?? Especially the ones who know this app..

~~~
jtbigwoo
They're here:

[http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/02/07/lulu_app_for...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/02/07/lulu_app_for_rating_men_it_s_just_as_creepy_as_rating_women.html)

and here:

[http://jezebel.com/5982867/the-creepy-new-yelp-for-boys-
and-...](http://jezebel.com/5982867/the-creepy-new-yelp-for-boys-and-other-
apps-for-your-genitals)

Do you not know how to use google?

~~~
marknutter
I think the OP is asking where the "shitstorm" is.

~~~
subsystem
Why would there be a shitstorm? That only happens when the self-proclaimed
defenders of the male gender feels threatened by someone challenging their
world view.

------
shanelja
Lets not act as though this is in anyway revolutionary, people have bitched
behind other peoples backs for as long as there have been people.

Bitterness, anger and jealousy are unfortunately some of the strongest traits
we humans have, especially when it comes to our interactions with one another,
this application, while on the surface immoral, is simply providing a means
for this to happen online.

I don't in anyway agree with this application or the practices it supports and
the tags come across as misandric but people will be people, if they don't
bitch here it will be on more public venues, such as Facebook or Twitter, at
least _here_ I don't have to see the self absorbed whinging simply by virtue
of never visiting the app.

That aside, I hope the creators provide some means of men removing themselves
from the website or there could very soon be some kind of law suit coming
there way, regardless of their contrived TOS.

~~~
ry0ohki
I think there is a difference between people bitching in private, and it being
something publicly searchable by people who just met you. One bad date and
suddenly you have a reputation that follows you forever? (Assuming people used
this app of course)

~~~
shanelja
Oh, definitely, that's why I added the last paragraph.

That being said, I would find it a good indicator, if the person you were
dating took notice of this drivel, they are probably the kind of person you
don't want to be dating anyway.

I think the biggest issue is the complete anonymity which is inherently given
online, even if it asked for identities, these can easily be faked.

What is to stop a jealous co-worker or an annoyed sister, or even a drunk
friend from tarnishing your public image online by saying you treat them
badly, or even worse, raped them, over an application like this?

~~~
visarga
Or another man. Men could use this to slander their competition.

------
Steuard
I have two reactions to this, and I think most people who care about sexism in
our society would agree with both:

1\. From the sound of it, this is a horribly sexist product that dehumanizes
men and reinforces traditional gender roles. I hope to one day see a world
where an app like this couldn't exist because there would be no demand (and
because everyone would be disgusted by the basic concept).

2\. Actively opposing this product is a lower priority than many other issues
in our society. While this app does harm the men it targets, that harm occurs
against a social backdrop that does not in general emphasize treating men this
way. (That is, such attitudes exist, but they are rarely the _primary_ lens
through which men are viewed.) In contrast, a similar app targeting women
would reinforce negative social norms that are often the primary way in which
women are viewed. (Consider how often articles about women in politics comment
on their appearance and clothing choices, as compared to how often articles
about men do so.)

In short, every feminist that I know would be unhappy about this system, but
there's no hypocrisy in those same people being _less_ upset about it than
about similar treatment of women. Yes, both men and women suffer unfair
treatment because of how our society deals with gender. But women have _much_
farther to go.

~~~
obviouslygreen
... _but there's no hypocrisy in those same people being less upset about it
than about similar treatment of women_.

You clearly believe this, but that's what it is, your belief. I disagree;
women may have " _much_ farther to go," but that doesn't mean this is somehow
intrinsically less important to people who really do support equality.

There is nothing wrong with establishing your own priorities. Calling this a
lower one with the justification that you are more concerned about women's
issues, instead of issues of sexual equality as a whole, would have been more
honest. Less benevolent, but then nobody's perfect: Better to be clearly
flawed, like the rest of us, than to fabricate some sort of intrinsic
dominance where a true egalitarian would find none.

~~~
Steuard
I may be misunderstanding you here, so I'd appreciate a bit of clarification.
The way I'm reading your argument, it sounds to me like your claim is
something like, "Context doesn't matter: similar forms of harm necessarily
carry similar moral weight." Thus, this app is intrinsically just as serious
of an issue as a similar app rating women would be.

But that reasoning doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see how you couldn't
apply the same argument to say "Regardless of context, it's always equally bad
to violently shove someone," ignoring the difference between shoving someone
standing on flat ground and shoving someone standing at the edge of a cliff.
Of _course_ I would be more upset about shoving in some contexts than in
others.

So my claim is that the same reasoning applies here. This app absolutely does
harm men, but the position of men in society is such that the resulting harm
is fairly contained: this service is notable precisely because it's unusual.
On the other hand, a similar app for rating women would be yet another
contribution to a vast complex of social attitudes and institutions that
combine to have a powerful oppressive effect. My sense is that network effects
would reinforce and magnify the harm that such an app would do to women.

So yes, when evaluating my desire for sexual equality as a whole, I find
myself more pressingly concerned about women's issues. But from my
perspective, that's not an arbitrary preference but a rational choice.

~~~
obviouslygreen
The problem I have with your reasoning is that we are not talking about an act
that would have dramatically worse results were it directed toward women. In
fact, _because_ there is a much more vehement reaction to anything oppressive
to women, a similar "shove" would actually result in _more_ pro-feminine
reaction than this one will pro-masculine, so in my opinion, you're ignoring
the realities of activism, which will turn that shove on its head.

Like I said... I don't find your view "wrong" in any absolute sense. I find it
mildly objectionable that it's arbitrary (which is fine) while hiding behind
claimed rationality (not as fine).

------
jshakes
As a guy, I couldn't care less that these kinds of things exist. This app will
be used exclusively by a superficial audience who I would have absolutely no
interest in meeting. If anything, I'd quite like to end up on this with
extremely negative reviews just so the horrible people using this will stay
the fuck away from me.

~~~
Camillo
But then those people will talk to their friends, and so on. And, contrary to
what you might think, there's plenty of highly educated women who are
sufficiently steeped in feminism (due to the process of acquiring that higher
education) to see this as perfectly fair payback for patriarchy's many evils,
and to use it without regret. So you end up targeting a thin sliver of
possible women: not too superficial, but not too educated, and with no friends
in either of those categories. Good luck with your dating.

~~~
lcfg
>there's plenty of highly educated women who are sufficiently steeped in
feminism (due to the process of acquiring that higher education) to see this
as perfectly fair payback for patriarchy's many evils, and to use it without
regret.

Your implicit attack on morals derived from feminism reveals a failure to
understand feminism and its ideals and effects. Furthermore, demonizing
"plenty of highly educated women" as eye-for-an-eye combatants seeking revenge
for patriarchy isn't just silly, it's offensive.

~~~
Camillo
Obviously it's not black and white, but my point was to disabuse jshakes of
his (frankly elitist) notion that only superficial and uninterestng people
would be exposed to this app's ratings.

Well-educated people - both women and men, actually - are in fact more likely
to be feminists (due to the cultural milieu at most universities, if nothing
else), and feminists are in fact not unlikely to approve of things like Lulu
as well-deserved reversals of privilege. I'm not saying all of them would (in
fact, I am a feminist myself, and I do not), but it's not rare, either, and
I've seen that kind of reaction from people I would not consider superficial
or uninteresting.

That's not an attack on anything, it's just me sharing my personal experience.
And who are you to say that my experience is invalid, or _silly_? I think
that's far more offensive than anything I've said.

------
gngeal
Write a polar opposite. Push it through the same channels. If someone has it
taken down, cry "sexism!" and demand the same for "Lulu" (an idiotic name,
anyway).

UPDATE: Or perhaps not. After looking at the web site, it seems that this
service, and a bad review of my person, is _precisely_ the thing to repel
exactly the kind of women I've never wanted to have anything common with.

~~~
GotAnyMegadeth
Perhaps it's named after the equally high quality Metallica album

~~~
gngeal
If nothing else, there is already a publishing service with the same name. If
I were running it, I'd seriously consider some legal steps. This smells of
potential defamation by association.

 _"I've published my book on Lulu.com."_

 _"Oh, is that the horrible sexist girl gossip website?"_

 _"I didn't know they were running it. I'll tell my friends to stop buying
their books from there."_

------
jgrahamc
I can't help feeling that the people who use such an app to date and rate
deserve each other.

~~~
jeffreybaird
The issue is men don't use the app. I downloaded it on my SO's phone and was
able to find most of the college age guys I know on it. None of them knew they
were on there.

~~~
dfxm12
_The issue is men don't use the app._

I think the issue is men _can't_ use the app.

~~~
tomjen3
Really. How the hell do they check that the user is a man? Facial recognition?

~~~
dfxm12
No idea. You have to install the app on your phone, so it can read your
phone's accounts. I think a Google account is required on an Android phone.
Google accounts have gender in their profile (remember the G+ fiasco?). You
also have to link it to Facebook, so it has access to your Facebook data as
well. Maybe they don't like new Facebook accounts with zero activity, but
certainly there is a usecase for women who want to use this app, but don't
want to use Facebook (I would think there is a usecase for women who don't
have smartphones as well). Not sure about the iPhone flow.

This thought exercise is really making me scared about how much the owners of
the apps on my phone know about me!

------
Irregardless
Who cares? Would you want to date a girl who uses a gossip app anyway? No.
Hell no.

If this helps steer the superficial airheads in another direction, I'd only
have one thing to say to Chong: "Thanks!" Saves us the trouble of finding out
the hard way, at least.

~~~
loceng
What about a girl who is acquaintances with a gossip girl who uses the app and
searches for guy's they're dating, and lets them know about whatever is
mentioned on there?

~~~
jhull
I don't get why everyone is so paranoid about this. What are people trying to
hide?

~~~
john_b
Among many other good reasons, it's an app whose nature is determined by the
same kind of dynamics that govern many restaurant and product reviews.

Most of the time, satisfied customers don't bother to review the product or
service because a certain psychological barrier first needs to be overcome
(i.e. "writing this review is worth my time because it's _SO_ good/bad").
Middle-of-the-road reviews rarely make it through, and when they do, they are
typically short and uninsightful. Reviews that draw the most attention are
those at the extremes.

Human beings are generally more prone to extreme dissatisfaction than extreme
satisfaction. It's in our nature. When is the last time you thought, "Man,
that person drives _SO_ well!" or "My bill is _SO_ low this month!"?

In the case of Lulu, the comments will heavily skew to the negative since
"satisfied customers" will likely still be dating the guy (and thus not
posting reviews) and dissatisfied ones will have every incentive to write
vindictive comments in a last attempt to "get even". And those who are
initially angry with the guy but later change their minds are likely to write
a review during the angry phase and forget about it later, when their opinion
of him has moderated. The end result is that most of the guys on the site will
be portrayed in a much more negative light than is actually merited.

In terms of its user base, it's really just catering to the female equivalent
of guys who engage in "slut shaming". But it's more socially acceptable
because the app targets men instead of women, and men are expected to be more
psychologically durable.

------
CopyrightX
"Lulu’s Term of Service disingenuously shifts the responsibility of notifying
men of their unwitting participation to Lulu's users, which I’m inclined to
believe has never happened."

WHAT?! You mean the Lulu app users might not be _strictly_ adhering to the
site's Terms of Service?! Well, notify the FBI about that! There's a law
created in 1984 <https://www.eff.org/issues/cfaa> for JUST such criminals as
these, and it makes the users guilty of committing a felony offense (a
perfectly reasonable use of the law in this case)! Never mind the EFF's Week-
Of-Action for reforming the CFAA this week
[https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/help-us-remember-
aaron...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/help-us-remember-aaron-swartz-
participating-our-week-action-demanding-congress) . Lulu's users are clearly a
threat to society and deserve felony convictions for their awful behavior
here.

------
trin_
Besides the sexist nature of the app (imagine the outcry if it would be an app
to rate girls... "sexist startup guys treating women like netflix movies")
what the hell is their business model? they collected 2.5 million for a free
app, without a business model and a VERY questionable legal standing (if not
in the us almost anywhere else in the world)

~~~
brazzy
Business model? Is that the thing where you have "revenues" and "profits" that
only scare away potential acquirers by being measurable?

I don't see why anyone would want such a "business model".

------
paduc
This app would be illegal in France. It's illegal to have a database of people
without letting these people see, modify and destroy their profiles.

Doesn't any such law exist in the US?

------
untog
Wait, Hacker News is OK talking about gender now? Because I thought that stuff
got flagged because it wasn't "relevant"- evidently the community has had
quite the change of heart recently.

Either that, or it's OK because it's about men and not women. One of the two.

~~~
peterwwillis
Are you new here? Every time there's a story in any way relating to sexism,
the community jumps on it like it's somehow a worthwhile conversation, when
really everyone just wants to put their two cents in. Like me for example.

~~~
untog
They really don't, though. A number of people jump on, then the thread gets
flagged to death. Only when it's about women, though:

[http://tumbling.alastair.is/post/42050321362/why-are-
posts-a...](http://tumbling.alastair.is/post/42050321362/why-are-posts-about-
the-geeklist-controversy-being)

~~~
peterwwillis
Women are more often the victims, hence more stories about them, hence more
discussion. I haven't seen a story yet about a guy who was a victim of sexism
in this industry, but I also can't say the stories don't exist just because I
haven't seen them.

What I have seen is public acknowledgement from pg that they delete stories
that get voted up just because they feel like it. So the community doesn't
necessarily get a say.

------
crux_
The comments here are absolutely disgusting. Sure, this service is shallow,
and absolutely disrespectful of privacy, etc...

But the amount of faux outrage you're all whipping yourselves into a froth
over is really over the top. So much hate and resentment. :(

Oh, and those of you claiming there would be some sort of anti-man frenzy if
there was a site targeting similar gossip by men?

It's been done. No outrage. The most prominent example? Facebook.

~~~
mnicole
With all the commentary here you'd think all feminists are the kind that want
to "overthrow" men and it's women's fault a company primarily consisting of
men were funded, and have developed and marketed this app.

There are far creepier and more intrusive apps and services out there. Instead
of blindly blaming feminists (without actually understanding what most
feminists actually stand for) for them being on the marketplace, blame the
developers and encourage the ecosystems they're a part of to stop allowing
apps whose primary intentions are to shame or label unknowing persons. Your
rage is Streisand-effecting this thing and propelling it further than it would
have gone otherwise.

What were the totals in those gender polls yesterday? The current numbers are
sitting at Male - 1201 / Female - 72 / Other - 30. And it shows (particularly
because a lot of women specifically signed up yesterday just to participate in
it and will probably go back to lurking for good reason).

I think many forget this place is actually less diverse than Reddit in
demographics, frequented mostly by the 18-24 male, we just pretend that
there's higher expectations in how one speaks and treats the upvote/downvote
system even though that seemingly goes out the window when discussing topics
like these, where opposing viewpoints are downvoted as quickly as they're
posted and the women-blaming posts are upvoted.

When we have threads about revenge-porn sites, where are these same angry
posters? Instead we get slut-shaming in the form of, "Well maybe you shouldn't
be sending those types of photos if you don't want them to end up in the wrong
hands." They act as though photos of naked males are passed around as quickly
and have the same effect on the victim as they do females.

Do you remember the threads about /r/creepshots and how many here were
defending the right to post these photos even if they contained personally-
identifying information (location, scars, tattoos, etc.) because "freedom of
speech" and "let Reddit be Reddit" and the always rational "well she was in
public so she doesn't have any say in who can take a picture of her,
regardless of how depraved it is". But oh no, some woman on some app nobody is
going to use is going to call me a creep and it's going to ruin my life - _the
privilege!_

The idea that "I don't experience privilege and I know this because I am not
to blame for anything that happened before my existence," is trying to argue a
point that only extremist feminists are making; no one's blaming the current
crop of men for past problems that exist today (not most of them, anyway).
That doesn't negate the fact that these values and expectations have already
permeated through our society and are affecting everyone in ways many do not
notice in their day-to-day.

It's a shame that this was the first post I am commenting on today, after
seeing the existing dialogue here and the sibling comment to my post (albeit
[dead]), I'm sure there will be some fun responses. But I needed to get things
done today anyway.

TL;DR We have things to work on on both sides, but blaming women for a product
not even created by women is really unnecessary and unproductive, particularly
when similar apps for men are already on the market and have been linked in
this thread.

~~~
papsosouid
>Instead of blindly blaming feminists (without actually understanding what
most feminists actually stand for) for them being on the marketplace

Why do discussions like this always get such ridiculous strawman arguments
tossed around? Nobody is blaming feminists. People are pointing out that the
vocal, hateful group of internet "feminists" constantly claim they are against
sexism in all forms, and thus men's rights advocacy should not exist and those
people should just be feminists. But in reality, when obvious sexism like this
happens, those same "feminists" do not speak out against it.

~~~
mnicole
"Feminist" found count - 41. "Feminism" found count - 13. "WHERE ARE THE
FEMINISTS NOW?!" was one of the top comments when this post was on the front
page a few hours ago and helped set the stage for the continuing commentary.

The uproar in this thread is over placing inappropriate blame on people that
neither asked for nor made this app. As Stavros said above, the company is
primarily male and this aspect of the app was a last-minute pivot he hadn't
heard of before he left the company.

Now look at how HN handled the same type of app for men --
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5087859>. Seems to be a lot less gender-
blaming/misplaced fear going around there.

A better way to handle something like this is to shut down the very notion of
it and do what was necessary to tell developers and distributors that this is
not acceptable, like the thread linked above did. Instead, it turned into a
hateful, woman-bashing array of bruised egos and hurt butts over what women
you'd probably be smart enough not to date in the first place had to say about
you.

~~~
papsosouid
>"Feminist" found count - 41. "Feminism" found count - 13. "WHERE ARE THE
FEMINISTS NOW?!" was one of the top comments

I'm not sure how you could misunderstand my post as it was quite clear. I know
people mentioned feminists. Yes, they say things like "WHERE ARE THE FEMINISTS
NOW?!" just like I said. That is not blaming feminists for the creation of the
app, which is what you claimed, and what I very clearly and explicitly
responded to.

>The uproar in this thread is over placing inappropriate blame on people that
neither asked for nor made this app

No it is not. Asking why feminists aren't speaking out against something is
not blaming them for the creation of that thing.

~~~
mnicole
Are you a feminist? Are you voicing your opinion? Then yes, feminists are
speaking out. I don't know what this place expects; a story comes out and
within hours members of this community decide that not a group isn't "doing
their job" because they're personally not seeing enough outrage to satisfy
them and prove the group is worthy of their support. As linked in other
comments, plenty are.

Yet many of people come into these threads with the intent to argue with those
whom they inherently believe will approve of an app like this because their
misguided thought-process has them thinking the majority of feminists would
praise it. They're quick to get mad at _women_ , not at the developers or the
mindset that this is okay. They're quick to complain _at_ a movement for not
doing enough in 24 hours, when we're all a part of it.

Not only that, but the current top comments here are complaining about how
women abuse their "privilege" by calling men they deem unworthy of their time
"creepy" and have decided to pile on needlessly to the idea that everyday
interactions are going to land them with such a title. Again, there are very
few women on HN alone, no less those willing to engage with people who
honestly think that this is standardized practice for +/- 50% of the
population, thus leaving dissenting opinions in the dust and piling on one-off
anecdotes as some sort of social proof that they're right. How is that
benefitting anyone?

This is not the first women's-issue thread in which I've seen you (and others
here) personally go out of your way to talk without actually having anything
to say. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to prove here, but it isn't
conveying anything other than you are arguing to argue.

~~~
papsosouid
>I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to prove here

That is clear from the content of your post. The question is, why are you so
unsure. It is very simple, and I made it very clear. Twice in fact. You said
that people here are blaming feminists for the creation of the app. I said
that is false. That's it. That is the whole thing. I do not see how you can
have such a hard time understanding such a very simple statement.

------
manuscreationis
Millennia of imbalance towards men having the upper hand in just about all
societies is a plain fact.

However, progress and equality is not the reversal of an imbalance - it's the
leveling of a playing field and accepting that to achieve real meaningful
change, the notion of retribution must be taken off the table.

Either it's ok for both genders to have a service like this, or it is not ok
for either gender to have a service like this. End of story.

Personally I'd find any site like this reprehensible for either gender (or any
other biologically or socially discernable metric, for that matter).

------
darxius
I'm amazed at the kinds of apps which exist and get exposure. This is stuff
which might have been fun in high school, but there are actual adults using
this.

Not to mention the insane double standard. I'd love to see a man make a
similar app for rating women this way. I'm sure there would be news reports
and tons of angry feminists flooding the airwaves.

~~~
ohkine
Try being a woman on the Internet — anywhere on the Internet, not this one
idiot site — and then talk about insane double-standards.

When every other online interaction involves at least a few men commenting on
your fuckability or how much of a 'bitch' you are, or going digging through
all of your previous posts or even tracking down your Facebook account so that
they can publicly share your body with all of the other men reading, and you
have no recourse lest you be labelled an 'angry feminist', you will find that
one single Web site where women treat men in a similar fashion does not
inspire the same level of passion that it is doing here.

It is a terrible Web site, obviously, but i am envious of the social position
that leads to such a complete lack of irony and self-reflection as seen in
these comments.

~~~
darxius
The fact that other double standards exist in other parts of the internet
isn't what I was debating. I won't argue with you that there is an inherit
double standard among both sexes, but seeing as this thread is about the
website in question -- that's the one I was addressing.

Also, in no way should double standards and sexism lead to more double
standards and sexism.

~~~
ohkine
If you had simply decried the site's 'sexism' i would not have taken issue
with your post. What you'd said was that it was an 'insane double standard'.

The definition of a double-standard is 'the application of different sets of
principles for similar situations, or two different people in the same
situation'.

Your use of the term 'insane double standard' (not to mention the other
comments here using similar language) therefore suggests that the existence of
one single Web site dedicated to women objectifying men is a 'similar
situation' to living every single day in a culture where only the OPPOSITE is
actually a real problem.

And as much as i can identify with the distaste over this Web site, i find
that that implication is laughable and the emotional outrage over it is
therefore severely misplaced.

~~~
DanBC
You've managed to say what I was thinking.

I understand why people dislike websites like this, or the Diet Coke ads (men
stripping their shirts off while women ogle) and I'd join in the criticism.
But the ranting sometimes feels so overblown.

------
saosebastiao
Interesting to see a startup with a business model that is entirely based in
toeing the line of libel. I wouldn't bet on its sustainability...but certainly
interesting to watch nonetheless.

------
jiggy2011
How does this even work? I assume it's a database that you search by name and
location but then there's going to be all kinds of collisions. Or does it pull
data from social networks?

I imagine the signal to noise ratio will just be horrible, bitter ex
girlfriends will just spam guys with negative tags even if they aren't true
and it's information will just lose all value.

~~~
bit_ninja
It seems you must login with Facebook, which I assume allows for picking of
very specific people.

I would expect it to be a lot of negatives, because people usually don't (seem
to) gossip as much about positives.

~~~
jiggy2011
So does that mean you can only rate people who are also on facebook? Another
excellent reason to avoid using FB then I guess..

------
wpietri
It'd be interesting to see a review of Lulu that didn't seem to be mainly made
of "dude with baseball cap, suddenly concerned that he might be called to
account".

To me, the emotional heart of this piece of writing is his concern with "men
kowtowing". I looked at his other articles and his personal site, and I didn't
see anything where his writing was half this passionate. And certainly nothing
where he'd expressed concern for sexism.

I suspect if I looked into Lulu I'd also not like it. But this article is so
full of the author that I really can't see the subject.

~~~
jrajav
Um.... So because the author doesn't normally soapbox about this hot-button
issue but felt unusually compelled to call this instance out, you're _less_
inclined to take him seriously?

Never mind that either side of that is the worst kind of ad hominem.

~~~
wpietri
Exactly. Because that, along with the article itself, suggests that the
unusual compulsion is not a strong opposition to sexism.

Ad hominem concerns apply to rational arguments. This piece is not cool,
rational discourse. It's a highly emotional piece, written to incite emotion.
Inquiring about the source and nature of the emotion that drives it is fair.

~~~
theorique
He probably didn't notice sexism until it became personal. Why is that wrong?
Most people become activists when something personally gets in their face,
rather than through some abstract idea of "justice".

~~~
wpietri
It's not wrong as such. It's just shallow. Hopefully it's the beginning for
him of understanding sexism more deeply.

I do think it's wrong for _a writer_ , though. If you're going to set yourself
up as writing an article about a topic, I think you should actually know
something about the topic.

This would have been a better piece if he'd made it more explicitly about his
own feelings all the way through, rather than trying to make it about bigger
things.

------
fab13n
How do they prevent men from creating fake female accounts and see what's told
about them?

Do they take steps to anonymize the evaluators? Even if they do, timing the
changes in the evaluations will allow to guess who said what, except for the
most frantic womanizers.

I can foresee a Lulu user being busted, bad things happening to her, and Lulu
being sued.

Finally, for those who talk about DDoSing the site: it's smarter and funnier
to build a Lulu whistleblowing bot, which makes stuff more public than
intended.

------
insickness
As a notorious womanizer, this app enrages me. I will have no choice now but
to become a caring, sensitive, one-woman man. Damn you Lulu!!!

------
iand
It sounds like something that's going to divide people on the moral compass
but in the end you don't need to ask someone's permission before you can have
an opinion of them and share it with other people.

~~~
praptak
Technology changes the scale, though. Gossiping with your friend about your ex
is different from sharing your opinion of said ex with thousands of people.

------
pathy
How on earth could this app get funding? If it were a male->female app there
would have been an outrage about it.

Moral issues aside, I can see a lot of libel lawsuits (at least in the UK)
springing up because of this app. There are enough rumours in the world as it
is, we do not need apps that profit from people rating the opposite sex and
spreading rumours about them.

~~~
skrebbel
> _How on earth could this app get funding?_

You sound like you expect investors to somehow be more guided by ethics than
other people. Ever consider that it might be the other way around?

------
btipling
The connected nature of the internet and mobile devices reduces the cost of
disseminating information. It doesn't discriminate about what information is
made easier to share. Expecting app stores to play gate keepers sets a
dangerous precedent. Imagine if the internet was an AOL app store and Steve
Case had the final opinion on everything that would be made available to their
users.

You just have to roll with the punches and adjust. It's fine to be appalled at
stuff like this, it goes over the top whenever you want someone to have
authority to bring a stop to it for you. Adjusting your expectations and
dealing with your objections are a better option than giving someone you can't
really trust such long lasting power just to temporarily please your ego.

In two days you're going to forget about this app, but then you'll probably
have found something else on HN to be outraged about. Maybe it will be the app
store gate keeper shutting down an app you liked.

------
keammo1
How much outrage is there over The Playbook app, which lets men share and rate
pictures of their "romantic encounters"? Seemingly less than there is over
LuLu, unless I missed it.

<http://theplaybookapp.com/>

~~~
Nursie
IIRC that hit HN a few months to a year ago. Everyone said it was slimy and
disgusting and that the creators should feel bad for being assholes.

So there's that.

\--edit-- Here is is - <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5087859>

It wasn't as as popular as this topic, and there are one or two "how will you
monetise this" posts, but in general it got slammed.

~~~
danielweber
The free market is good at giving people what they want.

But sometimes, people getting what they want is a horrible thing.

------
cyanbane
I think some women are going to love this.... until someone builds the site
that sits on the other side of the coin.

~~~
Nursie
You could just build a database of Lulu users which would serve the same
purpose!

------
rayj
This app is disturbing. It also wants storage, location, network, contacts,
phone call permissions hence I highly doubt it is as private as its creators
portray it as.

------
ndeyx
Take a look here : <http://m.luludude.com/>

~~~
edwardunknown
What is that? It wants a Facebook.

~~~
ndeyx
I don't have Facebook account myself, but it's related to Lulu app and onlulu
(according to the faq). Apparently, guys can see what girls say about them.

~~~
kybernetyk
So you sign in with your FB account, they pull in your data and put it into
their app db so ladies can find you easier?

Very ... smart.

/edit: Oh, their privacy disclaimer states that they will also pull your
friends' data into their DB.

~~~
ndeyx
I don't think the main goal is to help people. Lulu get personal datas from
girls (mobile app, onlulu) and from guys (luludude) with this system and
probably make money with it. Helping ladies and guys is a "secondary"
activity.

------
cupofjoakim
Oddly, I don't mind this. I'd like a version for guys as well though, mostly
to see the rage that would come up from the extreme feminists.

~~~
lcfg
What kind of "extreme feminists" are you talking about, and why would you be
glad to "see the rage"? It sounds like you'd like to verify your opinion on
feminism by considering the arguments of a fringe minority.

------
hnriot
Does anyone really care? Maybe the young insecure men who have grown up with
hash tags and their online persona having some kind of meaning. But anyone
with an ounce of confidence wouldn't care less. Women have always gossiped and
always will. It's not about the men, it's a way for women to bond over common
experiences and shared empathy.

------
squozzer
The real tragedy is that it will drive mate selection further towards those
qualities that are most fleeting -- looks and wealth. I will now indulge
myself with a chuckle as I think of all those women who will wake up one day
years into the future and realize that #Big.Feet = #Cheater and #FatBankroll =
#AlwaysAwayOnBusiness.

~~~
theorique
Looks decline for women, but men start to look "distinguished".

It depends a LOT on what the opposite sexes look for in a partner - men want
something young and pretty to impress their friends and not say something too
stupid, women want a dominant man who pays for stuff and makes decisions.

------
guelo
Weird that /r/MensRights made it to the front page this morning.

------
lifeisstillgood
Meh, whatever. It seems like a lot of social media - an online, permanent
record of an evening in the bar.

I get the impression that this is a "terrible thing" because it will actively
hinder the dating chances of some people without redress or knowledge. (Which
is exactly like an evening in the bar)

Like privacy, our reputations are taking a digital battering. But just as
people watch reality tv and boo at the evil ones, they also learn that they
are booing five minutes edited conversation from 24 hours of life - lulu will
carry on and so will gossip and bitchiness, but we will learn to adjust to the
new levels of transparency - it may be a rough time, but it will happen.

Nb I you can use SQL injection to get a hot date, and don't live up to the
injected criteria, trust me, that story will not need lulu to spread

------
tomasien
Some good points made, but in this instance I think voice and perspective
matter, and I'd greatly prefer to see a piece like this written by a woman. A
man's voice just does nothing for me in this instance.

We could have the "words vs. words+voice" debate, but let's just skip it
because voice matters.

------
onemorepassword
Good thing this will never spread far beyond the US. Utterly illegal in most
Western countries. It's not even a grey area, laws were written to prevent
almost exactly this kind of thing.

Surprised they even tried to launch in the UK and had it running without
getting sued or prosecuted.

------
thebiglebrewski
Tried signing up for it with a fake Facebook account with gender set to
female, and it did not work. I still think this is really effed up - but
honestly was genuinely curious to see what is on this thing! Kind of to see
what girls I know that would even use this.

------
danpalmer
They have the ability to remove a Facebook account from their system
permanently. Email them asking to be removed and they will add you to the
blocked list so that no one can rate/review you and you do not appear on the
network in any way.

------
jlebrech
isn't lulu a self-publishing service?

~~~
Swizec
Yes, lulu.com is a print-on-demand service. This seems to be a different Lulu
... I was confused too.

~~~
latterd
FYI onlulu.com

------
networked
If you're a single straight guy who has any kind of web following and you fear
Lulu will be detrimental to your dating you can probably apply the following
counter-strategy: ask your followers to register fake Lulu accounts and give
you bizarre, negative reviews. Once the number and the severity and absurdity
of the reviews cross a certain threshold it will be clear that those are not
all to be taken seriously. This will drown out any real negative reviews of
you with noise and, should many people start doing it, bring the overall
credibility of the site down.

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating that you do so.

------
S_A_P
This is good. I wouldn't care to date or even consider someone who would
resort to such shallow methods to figure out if I was "worth it". That is,
assuming something negative about me would be said. I can't really see how
this would be anything _but_ negative towards the men. He would be an ex for a
reason. Jgrahamc said it well- if you are using this app, you deserve who you
get.

------
joshuaheard
I don't know if the link was about the app or the ridiculous "left" and
"right" buttons that completely interfered with my reading the article.

------
marvin
I am so happy that I'm steering well clear of mainstream dating these days.
This is the worst of mainstream dating culture, distilled and ready to use. If
nothing else, you could make awareness/usage of this app a dealbreaker and use
it as a filter for girls you would definitely not want as a partner.

------
joyeuse6701
There were a lot of websites like this (anonymous gossip) when I was in
college that would come up, get really popular and then someone would get a
lot of flack, be emotionally traumatized, and the universities would petition
for a take down. All it will take is one suicide to tear this app down.

~~~
Aco-
oh, is that all it will take? human lives are so cheap today. I suppose we
should just count the minutes then.

------
charlieok
Hmm, now I kinda want to use the app to see if/when anything gets posted about
me. But I don't want to help this become more of a thing. And I sure as hell
don't want to give it access to my Facebook account.

Edit: saw the “no boys allowed” clause. Great. So I guess using it would
require a fake Facebook account?

------
dash2
I think it's hilarious and a brilliant idea. Everyone knows that dating is a
lemons market, what's wrong with trying to fix it? And presumably you can rate
things how you want... so if people want to put #Big.Feet or #AlwaysPays,
that's their choice.

~~~
shanelja
That you felt the need to make a new account simply to post this comment shows
that you don't fully agree with your own point of view.

~~~
Flimm
No, it doesn't. Social shame does not imply lack of conviction or
misinformation.

------
maxcan
Honestly, I don't think that this is particularly sexist at all. My only issue
is the massive double standard in the media and culture that takes a pass on
this but would raise hell if someone released the same exact app with the
genders reversed.

------
VexXtreme
I bet it's just a matter of time before they piss off the wrong person, get
hacked or DDoSed out of existence. And I sincerely hope that the bitch who
owns the company never succeeds at another product again.

~~~
quesera
Too much vitriol.

Playing to the base instincts of the hoi polloi is rarely a bad business
strategy.

But it is self-debasing.

She should grow up. So should you.

Interesting: "hoi polloi" autocorrects to "hot pollo". And now I'm hungry.

------
kybernetyk
At first I was: Well, that is sexist.

But then I was: I just need a few fake reviews ...

~~~
Ygg2
And you get idiot airheads as your partner? My only thought allow for a others
to check if someone uses Lulu or not.

That's a great filter, right there.

------
mgkimsal
Wow - Blair Warner was doing this 25 years ago!

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toeIzZZxEkw>

The more things change....

------
S4M
I don't see how it would prevent a man to create the fake account of a woman
and post advantageous stuff about him (like the mentioned "big feet").

------
nemik
This is fantastic. Any girl who uses something like this is someone to stay
away from anyway and now it just gets easier. Keep up the good work.

------
junto
So is there an app for men on women or a gay or bi?

------
duncan_bayne
This a fantastic idea. We should encourage Lulu to give away free t-shirts, so
that men know who to avoid dating :)

------
myth
If there ever were a service deserving of an indefinite DDOS, this would be
it.

~~~
rada
There was. It was called Facemash and is now Facebook.

------
JPKab
They should call it Shrew-lu.

------
andyhmltn
I thought they were talking about the self publishing company at first...

------
DanBC
The MRAs are out in force.

------
irishcoffee
Am I the only one tempted to make an app called Ulul..?

------
jeffcutsinger
I can't wait to see this buried beneath older stories with fewer points and
comments, the way every story on sexism gets buried here.

Oh wait this is about how awful women are to men. Never mind.

~~~
drharris
What are you talking about? I see at least a few stories per week on sexism in
the top 10. Given that this place is more technology/startup-related than
"let's talk about society", that's a pretty good frequency for just one of
many valid social causes.

~~~
jeffcutsinger
Next time you see a story about sexism against women (redundant but needs the
clarification here anyway), watch its movement. Yeah, it may get up in the top
for a bit, but you can watch stories that are older with fewer points and
comments move up above it. Happens every time.

~~~
drharris
I've seen this effect in other "heated" discussions, and I wonder if it's the
effect of moderation. Primarily, what happens to a thread as the percentage of
moderated messages increases? Is that metric involved in the positioning? I
could see a topic like sexism (or emacs v. vi) getting an inordinate amount of
moderation, and thus might be flagged more often, moving it down the list.
Maybe that has nothing to do with it, but I've seen this effect before.

------
klrr
This is bad.

------
pointyhatuk
I can't imagine they would get away with this in the EU. One data protection
request and subsequent slander case would destroy them in an instant.

I find the whole idea objectionable at every level and about as innovative as
"rate my poo".

------
workbench
Need someone to hack and leak the user data to build a database of pathetic
self absorbed women not worth giving the time of day to let alone building any
sort of friendship or god forbid a relationship with.

