

Amazon Unpacked - pearkes
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/ed6a985c-70bd-11e2-85d0-00144feab49a.html#slide0

======
gedrap
I see their point but... But OK, what else realistically can they expect? Yes,
it sucks a lot especially when all the media around you is telling all those
success stories and make you feel like you are the lowest class, destined to
work that kind of job for the rest of your days. Although your position is not
that bad. There are millions of people who would do literally anything to have
it. Or they do same/harder jobs and are still starving.

Raise the wage? I don't think Amazon would like to cut their profits to make
your life better. Raise the wage and increase the price? Well then you might
not have your job at all.

It sucks but your alternatives are way worse - having no job and worrying
about making the ends meet everyday.

And that's exactly why there are so many Eastern Europeans in the UK. Because
an average Eastern European would not complain much about walking 15 miles a
day and would be really happy that he has ANY job.

(I'm from a poor family where all relatives are working in sweat shops)

------
incision
I'm surprised at the amount of negativity here.

It's work.

As demonstrated in the article some of these people were surely just
subsisting on unemployment prior.

My first job wasn't near-minimum wage, it was the absolute minimum. I didn't
have work-issued safety boots to complain about, I had to buy my own. I didn't
walk around a clean warehouse, I walked around outside cleaning up after every
kind of urban nastiness you can imagine regardless of the weather. I wouldn't
have even considered missing work in the first week for anything that didn't
have me fearing for my life, let alone blisters. There was effectively no
chance of being made permanent.

I was happy as hell to have that job. It changed my life and I used the small
comfort it provided to study up and find my way into better things. I'd have
been overjoyed to do the kind of work described in this article.

There are certainly a lot of idealistic ways these jobs "should" be, but in
reality I think the idea of treating this work as anything but a temporary
(for the workers and in general in light of automation) stepping stone is
fantasy.

~~~
elteto
Just because you had less than standard working conditions on your first job
doesn't mean that others have to go through the same. I am glad it worked out
for you in the end but the fact remains that your first employer was not the
best one.

I think the negativity doesn't arise from the nature of the work, if I am told
that the position requires heavy lifting and walking 15 miles a day then maybe
I should consider whether that is something _I_ can do. My negative reaction
comes from the shady employment techniques that they seem to be using, such as
using the promise of full time employment as a 'dangling carrot', as the
article puts it. For a positive reference point, you could research about
Costco employees (I can't seem to find the source now), who perform a very
similar job (if not more demanding, since there are customers involved) and
yet have very high workplace satisfaction rates.

~~~
incision
_> "Just because you had less than standard working conditions on your first
job doesn't mean that others have to go through the same. I am glad it worked
out for you in the end but the fact remains that your first employer was not
the best one."_

I knew I'd get this comment the moment I wrote that. You've completely missed
the point to construe it that way.

 _> "My negative reaction comes from the shady employment techniques that they
seem to be using, such as using the promise of full time employment as a
'dangling carrot', as the article puts it."_

That's an analogy from a former employee. There's nothing to suggest anything
was actually promised.

I'm familiar with what Costco is doing and think it's great, but they're
obviously quite a bit different from the model of Amazon with big, membership
drive B&M stores. There's surely something to be learned from how they've
succeeded, but to assume it can be applied universally is naive.

------
saintx
At the end of each day, in a University town, you might sit down to enjoy a
meal or a cup of coffee at a local café, and strike up a conversation with a
complete stranger. The two of you might find quite a lot to talk about,
trading ideas and perspectives on different subjects, and ideas would flow
between you, like heat from a hot cup of coffee into cold hands. But in a one-
shop town (like the one I grew up in, or the one in this story), at the end of
the day, what do these hard working people have to talk about? Moving
packages. The insult of everyone having the same job is compounded by the
injury of every moment of the job being the same as the next. Nobody needs to
talk, because there's nothing new to say. There's no "heat" exchange, because
everyone is in the same pressure cooker with everyone else. There's no
differentiation, just accumulation. Organizations and organisms, to be
healthy, need specialized organs. Accumulation without differentiation is what
we call "cancer".

~~~
zrail
(please don't compare things to cancer, it does both a disservice)

~~~
AndrewDucker
Metaphor is a common part of every language. Please don't ask people not to
use it without clear information on why they shouldn't.

~~~
zrail
Sorry, it's a personal irk. Cancer is a horrible, concrete, real thing that I
have experienced far too much of in the past year, and to see it compared to
something relatively trivial and abstract makes me immediately dismiss the
author's argument.

Edit: Upon further reflection, I guess my point is that "x is cancer" is _far_
too powerful of a metaphor to just throw around. In my opinion it should be
reserved for things that have all of the personal heart wrenching connotations
that the word implies for people who have experienced it.

------
mikegreen
We've gotten to a point where those who read this article will say sweatshop
labor is OK because we want our 2-day free shipping. Then, we say it isn't OK
because they make minimum-wage, have to walk 15 miles a day, and work under
management that runs the shop by strict metrics. Well, someone has to do it
(at least now.. coming soon: robots) - not everyone is destined to goto
college or even a voc-tech school to learn how to operate a bulldozer.

It sucks, I agree. But, 40 years ago it was a mining town. Mining by all
accounts to me (tech desk jockey) sucks worse than an Amazon warehouse, but
yet there was some dignity and pride in being a miner. You were producing coal
for power! Power saved the country in war! Power keeps the lights on! Yay! Go
miners! But, making millions of people happy by providing them widgets and
sheets and 0.99cent cart-filler-chinese-made-LEDs doesn't make you happy?

~~~
timthorn
Mining paid a lot better than pick&pack.

~~~
mikegreen
Probably. But mining had huge risks. The cave collapses. The air you breathe
was horribly toxic. You traded life expectancy for more money. I imagine you
did a fair amount of harder labor and walked more than an Amazon warehouse.
And there is a damn canary chirping all the time.

~~~
zrail
I don't know why you're using past tense here. People are still working in
mines all over the world and all of those risks you list are their every day
reality.

~~~
mikegreen
Because the mine in the story we're discussing closed in 1990. I am aware
there are still active mines, complete with miners, all over the world.

~~~
zrail
D'oh, hadn't read the article yet. Sorry about that.

------
mchusma
My tl;dr: -Mine went under in mining town -High unemployment -Amazon came in
and offered jobs -Jobs paid minimum wage and 8 hour day -This in practice puts
workers in top 8% globally
([http://www.givingwhatwecan.org](http://www.givingwhatwecan.org)) -Jobs
required moderate labor (~3-6x office work) -UK's version of OSHA required
safety boots which suck -Amazon uses objective performance measures

Realistically, most of these low skill jobs will not exist in 20 years. So the
message of the piece was unjustifiably: "Amazon is evil." In reality, the
message should have been: "What will the world look like when even these good
jobs are gone?"

~~~
don_draper
>>Realistically, most of these low skill jobs will not exist in 20 years.

True. Amazon is already rolling out robots at select fulfillment centers.

But it still stinks that in 2013 so many people don't feel like they are in
control of their livelihoods. Not everyone can pass the algorithm tests at
Amazon to get one of the good jobs.

------
mmelin
This seems less like a story about Amazon and more about the unrealistic
expectations set by local politicians in a once-great industry town.

------
wgx
Reminds me of the "I was a warehouse wage slave" first-person account article
- submitted to HN about a year back:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3641184](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3641184)

------
axgop
I work in a distribution center (not one of Amazon's and not on the floor).
What they're describing in the article is pretty much industry standard for
non-robotic picking. It's a very difficult and demanding job and we're very up
front about that. People take the job figuring they can sling a few boxes and
a large percent leave within their probationary period because they
underestimate the work no matter how much you try to set their expectations.

I'm not saying Amazon is a benevolent employer (we pay well over minimum wage
because of the nature of the work), just that nothing in the article was
shocking.

~~~
pdx
The walking part of it was one of the things that jumped out at me. 15 miles
is a hike. To do that every day on concrete would tear you up.

Since you work at such a place, what is the feasibility of motorized "scooter
carts", that you could ride on, perhaps standing up, as you go from location
to location?

~~~
pilom
15 miles is a hike, but it wont tear you up after you do it for a weeek or 2.
It only feels like a lot because many office drones expecation of amount of
walking a day is anchored at "sit at desk all day." Appalachian Trail hikers
start at 8-10 miles a day and work up to around 15 miles a day on a dirt trail
over mountains while carrying 1/3 of their body weight! And they do that every
single day.

15 miles a day is no big deal, to say nothing of 7 miles a day.

------
eliben
I wonder how long it takes for such jobs to be fully robot-staffed. I had the
impression it's already the case for some types of warehouse tasks. With very
high likeness, within our lifetime there will be no need for human pac-mans.

~~~
gedrap
And what are the chances that the packers who are complaining now, will be
complaining then that their jobs were taken away and they want it back? Pretty
damn high, I'd say.

~~~
phaemon
If all you're given to drink is dirty water, and you complain about it, that
doesn't mean you want _nothing_ to drink. It means you want something _better_
to drink.

------
kristopolous
I like how the unit of size was football pitch. I guess around the world it's
assumed that the reader has intimate familiarity with lining up sporting
fields but can't handle things like a metric system.

~~~
mkr-hn
I would have preferred metric. I spent a minute trying to figure out how the
distance a pitched (US) football could be a useful unit of measure when it's
so variable. Then I realized pitch means _field_. And probably not a US
football field.

~~~
fduran
US football and football/soccer fields/pitches are about the same length
(~100m)

------
droopyEyelids
It's funny how a job like this fits with the cultural idea of 'the dignity of
work.'

The politicians and Amazon describe the human-robot job in positive terms,
like they're helping the community. But the real way jobs help people is by
providing them with enough resources to improve their situation, and gain
control of their lives.

Working in an Amazon factory doesn't do that. First, after hustling for 15
miles a shift making minimum wage, you aren't going to be able to return to
your shelter and work on a skill or education. You'd have to eat and sleep and
recover. Second, the path of distinction and promotion that would exist in
another career doesn't exist. The best way to do your job has been determined
by a computer, and the only distinction you can achieve is 'accuracy as a pac-
man.'

I think accurate language about a job like this would only describe it as
allowing people to live, period. Life maintaining, not life-improving. It's a
sweatshop for the first world, and only a blessing if you weren't going to be
able to eat or find shelter otherwise.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_First, after hustling for 15 miles a shift making minimum wage, you aren 't
going to be able to return to your shelter and work on a skill or education.
You'd have to eat and sleep and recover._

Walking for 7-15 miles, spread over an 8 hour day, is not actually all that
strenuous. It's worse than an office job, but it's pretty light exercise. In
terms of calories burned, it's about double a typical boxing workout (roughly
1000 cals for boxing, 2000 for walking 16 miles@2mph), which is something I do
every morning before going to an office job. In terms of intensity it's about
4x less (2x the work / 8x the time).

So figure 8 hours/day at work, another hour commuting, 8 hours sleeping,
that's 7 hours/day to do whatever you want. (Hint: skip the TV, learn a
skill.)

~~~
BashiBazouk
Well, keep in mind the recovery is less the total calories burned and more the
act of putting your entire body weight on the soles of your feet for eight
hours on cement floors in crappy shoes.

Also, four to five hours of walking is not "pretty light exercise". It's a
decent workout. Average speed for walking is around 3mph not 2, and if pressed
by electronic monitoring and management, a bit faster than that. Probably one
of the best forms of exercise out there, but rarely done for most people don't
have the time. Low intensity workouts over long periods of time have a
different recovery than high intensity workouts over a short time. The direct
calorie comparisons don't really do it justice...

~~~
coolnow
As someone who works at a relatively large warehouse for a billion pound UK
retailer, i can attest to the "walking is not pretty light exercise". Sure, if
you walked for leisure, it'd be nothing, but when you have such high targets
you need to reach and management always peering around corners and always
ending their conversations with "Okay now, hurry up you're falling behind", it
makes the experience way more difficult. Also, the breaks are set out in a way
that makes life absolute hell (for me, anyway). On Saturday, we have 10-15
minutes after 2 hours. Then 2 hours after that, we have a 45 minute unpaid
lunch. Then 2 hours after that, we have a 20 minute break. That day goes by so
fast and without any problems. On Sundays, we have a 15 minute break less than
an hour after our shift starts. After 2 hours, we have 45 minute unpaid lunch.
2 hours after that, we have our last break. Then we have a solid block of 3.5
hours without any rest. It typically takes me a full day of resting my feet to
feel better because i'm not the lightest person, and being on my feet for so
long especially without rest really makes a big big difference when comparing
Sat and Sun.

Yes, i have made it known to senior management that this break arrangement is
bizarre for Sundays (it's because we work 12pm - 8pm on Sat but on Sunday,
it's 2pm - 10pm so everything shifted forward 2 hours apart from the breaks,
which have to accommodate to permanent staff who still work 12pm - 8pm on
Sunday). They just tell em they're working on it. Not a lot of people listen
to agency workers there, seeing as though we hardly last 2 or 3 months, but
i've been working for almost a year now and still i've not got half the
attention that's given to permanents. Has it got to do with unions or
something?

------
crazysaem
Similar stories like this were in the news in germany as well, a few month
back, after a documentation of the ARD about working conditions in the Amazon
warehouses.

[http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=...](http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faz.net%2Faktuell%2Fwirtschaft%2Farbeitsbedingungen-
amazon-im-ausnahmezustand-12080623.html)

------
uniclaude
The way this article starts reminded me of the first chapter of "Manna" by
Marshall Brain[1]. Ironically, when I read this, I really thought that the
first company I would see using such a system would be Amazon.

[1]:
[http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm](http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm)

------
sailfast
While many have seemed to point out the issues with the work here, the more
subtle implication in the article is that temporary staffing agencies and the
way they facilitate transactional labor are a more serious part of the
problem. The Amazon employees have shares, equity, and incentives but the
temporary labor does not, and cannot miss a shift. The 4AM Army article in
Time also addresses this, and there may be a better middle ground for
temporary labor than what is provided:
[http://nation.time.com/2013/06/27/the-4-am-
army/](http://nation.time.com/2013/06/27/the-4-am-army/)

------
gadders
It doesn't really sound like a job I'd like to do, but I would imagine it
compares favourably with the other jobs available for unskilled workers -
supermarket checkouts, building site labourer, care assistant etc etc.

------
minikites
Mother Jones had a great article about the poor working conditions in these
warehouses: [http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-
mcclelland-f...](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-
free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor)

------
mattbasta
1\. They don't want you to talk to other people 2\. Good exercise 3\. Mastery
of efficiency is praised 4\. Stable job

Seriously, where does the line start?

------
stevoski
Too many anecdotes, not enough data.

------
bxc89
Interesting article, sounds like a horrendous place to work by all accounts.

The technique of using temp agencies for the bulk of a workforce is very
common in the States from what I understand, ensuring employees have few
rights. Hopefully it doesn't become prevalent here in the UK.

~~~
cormullion
Sadly it's already common in the UK, and not just for big firms with seasonal
variations - local councils (for example) are looking for an out-sourced
employee 'bank' that can be easily adjusted with fewer headaches. Recent
changes in employment law for temporary workers may help, but may also lead to
more cynical manipulation (e.g. replace all temporary staff before they become
eligible for higher status...).

