
How to Close a Gender Gap: Let Employees Control Their Schedules - nishs
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/07/upshot/how-to-close-a-gender-gap-let-employees-control-their-schedules.html?ribbon-ad-idx=3&rref=upshot&module=Ribbon&version=context&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=The%20Upshot&pgtype=article
======
david-gpu
The article puts a strong emphasis in how (truly) flexible schedules benefit
women but I think it applies just as well to men, particularly once you have
children.

~~~
cperciva
Indeed. The article cites the stigma of being the woman who can't come in to
work because her child threw up -- but there's far more stigma attached to
being the _man_ who can't come in to work because his child threw up.

~~~
pavel_lishin
> _there 's far more stigma attached to being the man who can't come in to
> work because his child threw up._

I'm pretty spoiled ("privileged" might be a more accurate term), but I've
called out fairly often due to having a much better time off policy than my
wife - so when the kid is sick and can't go to daycare, I tend to pick up 75%+
of the stay-home time with her. I've never had a problem at work, and other
dads at work have done the same thing.

I literally can't imagine someone giving me shit about it, or a coworker
suggesting that it's the woman's/mom's job to stay home with a sick child. I
guess it's different in non-software fields?

~~~
cperciva
You're lucky to have such an enlightened workplace. There are many companies
where fathers are officially allowed to take parental leave or work flexible
hours, but in practice everybody knows that those are really just for women;
the fact that men are allowed to make use of those options and people don't
_say_ anything doesn't necessarily mean that they don't quietly write off
child-caring men as being unreliable or uncommitted.

I don't have any data on flexible work hours, but in 2011 a study found that
only 4% of new fathers took over 2 weeks of parental leave. This is why it was
so important when Zuckerberg took two months of parental leave -- it set an
example and communicated to the company "men taking parental leave is normal".

~~~
pavel_lishin
My workplace only gives us 2 weeks off for paternity; but I was able to take
an additional week off as vacation. tbh, it still wasn't enough.

------
latenightcoding
This is just an ad for the site "werk" disguised as an article . Also, Erin
Fahs should really consider a better chair.

~~~
lbotos
I thought that NYT had to add a disclaimer when it's sponsored content?

If that's true, then this might just be lazy reporting?

I'm all for putting an end to native ads, but we have to admit any press about
something is effectively an ad.

~~~
harryh
Obligatory link to PG's essay on corporate PR:

[http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html](http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html)

------
dibstern
In some jobs, this just isn't practical. I know of a law firm that has the
best employment record & situation for women, but is suffering because so many
are working part time and/or working from home. It's made the firm less
competitive and undesirable for a merger.

~~~
pdabbadabba
But what about its effect on recruiting and retention? For most law firms
those are both huge issues -- and in many cases much more important than the
two factors you mentioned.

------
godelski
While this is a great solution is many sectors it won't solve anything in
others. As a man I love having flexibility in my job. One of the best perks.
But you can't do that for a lot of jobs, a lot of high skill jobs too. So
while I think we should do this, will it really solve much?

~~~
js8
Which jobs you can't do it for? Isn't this just a matter of "buffering", i.e.
having enough people in the place to deal with the unexpected?

~~~
jimmywanger
Well, any sort of job that isn´t strictly associated with pure officework.

Something like doctor, nurse, any sort of trade, outside sales, any sort of
in-person service, police, fireman, trucking/delivery. Most of these
professions employ more people than IT, I believe.

Even a lot of other professions have certains times of the year/situation
where you have to be there. For instance, if you're an accountant, during end
of year inventories, you have to be around to take a physical inventory. If
you're a lawyer or judge, you have to show up to court.

~~~
godelski
Not only do you need to show up, but you need to show up at certain times. It
would be a mess if doctors or judges just came in when they felt like it.
Though a counter point I can see lawyers having flexible schedules, except for
court appearances. I think most jobs will require some time being in the
location, it is just about if you can change what those hours are. But just
from the list you mentioned and the ones I was thinking of, are the jobs that
cannot be flexible more male dominated?

~~~
jimmywanger
Well, the previous comment I was replying to had a caveat that was this
applies to jobs that "weren't customer facing".

If you take that away, most of the jobs that need you to be at a certain place
and certain time require a certain amount of physical labor.

At the risk of igniting a gender war (which I have accused of on this board),
men on average are stronger than women are. If you're talking about jobs with
a large physical component, men generally gravitate to/are more effective at
those jobs.

------
will_pseudonym
Also, get more women into the military, oil refineries, etc.

~~~
CptJamesCook
Don't forget about sanitation work.

------
ue_
I wonder if we could close it even further if we let the employees _control
the means of production_.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Probably not. There are a few places which already approach this socialist
ideal - hedge funds, some management consulting firms and some law firms.

In this firms, employees control the means of production because employees
_are_ the means of production. Such firms tend to be mostly owned by employees
themselves.

These firms are not known for being family friendly or having a work life
balance. The reason is that these firms are populated by high productivity,
high effort individuals. Such people rarely want to work with people less
dedicated than themselves, people they rightly think of as underperformers.
(I've worked with such people in the past and it's dreadful.)

In your proposed world, high productivity employees would likely self
segregate into high productivity firms which would not be particularly family
friendly. Lower productivity employees who want to take years off from the
workforce and put family first would shift into lower productivity firms.

This means the same inequality would exist. Women would work at the family
friendly firms, their husbands would work at the high productivity firms, and
the inequality would continue.

(In fact, even in the modern world, inequality of this sort has been the
primary driver of inequality growth.
[https://www.nber.org/papers/w21199](https://www.nber.org/papers/w21199) )

~~~
ue_
Thank you for the insight. I was being semi facetious with my comment; owning
the MoP isn't the only required change for a Socialist society; I had similar
thoughts to yours with regard to segregation of the more and less productive.

Though I am not sure how this problem can be addressed. I suspect that the
fact that humans wouldn't have to work so much would alleviate part of the
problem.

------
rrherr
Also relevant? "Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks"
[https://hbr.org/2015/04/why-some-men-pretend-to-
work-80-hour...](https://hbr.org/2015/04/why-some-men-pretend-to-work-80-hour-
weeks)

~~~
tbihl
Cool. The end of the article reminds me of a somewhat recent cheating scandal
that the US Navy had at one of its huge schools. The Navy adjusts its tests to
be harder if pass rates get too high, which was the case at a base where
instructors were passing answer keys to one another (ongoing certification
tests, it seems.) The cheating led to higher pass rates and harder tests until
eventually it was impossible to pass the test by just studying.

Similarly, the only way to have a life at these jobs is by cheating on the
appearance of hours worked. I would say nearly the majority of my colleagues
now are big savers who plan to get their money and then leave to have families
for about this same reason.

------
wtf_is_up
This thinly veiled advert for Werk doesn't explain how someone working
remotely while caring for children will still be outperformed by someone
without children working remotely. How is this meant to close "the gender
gap"?

~~~
angry_napkin
The answer to this "problem" isn't fair to a generation that was never taught
life isn't fair. So we'll continue to get articles like this I guess.

------
whitemale
[http://www.chicksontheright.com/audi-accidentally-
disproves-...](http://www.chicksontheright.com/audi-accidentally-disproves-
its-entire-gender-wage-gap-commercial/)

> @Audi You pay your female employees less than males? You know that's against
> the law, right?

> @TueborFrog When we account for all the various factors that go into pay,
> women at Audi are on par with their male counterparts.

I think that says it all.

Instead of worrying about wages, how about letting people do what they want
and maybe fix the broken work culture that favours people who pretend to work
hard?

------
dibstern
ITT: Programmers / Sysadmins who are in an industry ideally suited for remote
work.

Other industries are not so suited to this.

~~~
amyjess
On the contrary, industries that can be converted to a shift work model are
also suited to this. Vox did a similar analysis to the NYT last year [0], and
one thing they pointed out was that the wage gap among pharmacists nearly went
away when pharmacies changed from being independent one-man shops to being
part of large chains such as Walmart and CVS that hire pharmacists to work
staggered shifts.

The Walmartization of professions results in higher wages for women.

[0] [http://www.vox.com/2016/8/1/12108126/gender-wage-gap-
explain...](http://www.vox.com/2016/8/1/12108126/gender-wage-gap-explained-
real)

------
thescribe
The solution to the gender gap is to fundamentally change how work is done.
I'm glad it was that simple.

~~~
jmcdiesel
I think your mindset is part of the problem...

WHEN someone works isn't a fundamental issue. IF we're talking retail, thats
an obvious exception. If we're talking a job where the employee isnt directly
contacting customers, then the time they work is largely less important. The
most efficient team I've worked on in my career was made up from people around
the world, there were 9 of us, everyone single one was in a different
timezone, some 12 hours off from each other... and we got more done as a team
than any Team I've been on before or sense... and it was largely due to the
nature of our hours... we had to make sure we buttoned our shit up, we
documented it well, we communicated VERY efficiently and effectively... etc.

I know it doesn't work for every position at every company, no single thing
does, but to consider 9-5 (or any set schedule in particular) "fundamental" to
business is short-sided at best...

~~~
jimmywanger
No, many jobs aren't customer facing yet require you to be in a certain place
at a certain time, such as most trades (carpentry and welding), long haul
trucking, repairman, and deliveryman.

The only job I can think of that won't get mostly automated away are either
jobs that require either/both lots of creative talent (such as a highly
skilled engineer, artist, etc) or require an actual onsite presence
(contractor, building inspector, pest control.)

~~~
jmcdiesel
"No, many jobs aren't customer facing yet require you to be in a certain place
at a certain time, such as most trades (carpentry and welding), long haul
trucking, repairman, and deliveryman."

What about those, if you're not interacting with the customer, requires a
certain time? A repairman can work any time if hes not dealing with the
customer - as long as the job is done on time. The same for all of these.

Most of the things you listed are customer facing... which is why they have
timeframes, so you can interact with the customer (or have access, etc).

~~~
sheepmullet
A lot of jobs require coordination with other people.

A truck driver can arrive whenever they want provided there are staff ready to
unload when they arrive.

An uncoordinated house build can take 2-3x as long due to trades waiting on
each other. Etc.

------
CptJamesCook
As an average-looking man from an average family, if I want to attract a woman
I need to be successful. The more successful I become, the higher quality of
woman I can get.

For a woman, extra career success will not boost her attractiveness in the
same way it will for me.

This is a _huge_ incentive. If women don't have the same incentives to work
hard as men, how can they achieve the same level of success?

~~~
dang
This amounts to trolling whether you meant it that way or not. Please don't
start flamewars on HN:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

Also, it looks you've been using HN primarily for political and ideological
arguments (at least recently). That's not what we want here, and worse, it's
actively destructive of what we do want—thoughtful discussions and
intellectual curiosity. So please don't use HN like this.

~~~
DrDimension
>> Also, it looks you've been using HN primarily for political and ideological
arguments (at least recently).

We're all pretty sick of your badgering everyone with differing opinions,
dang.

If you want a safe space insulated from intellectual diversity, try NeoGaf.

------
amyjess
Vox did a similar article last year:
[http://www.vox.com/2016/8/1/12108126/gender-wage-gap-
explain...](http://www.vox.com/2016/8/1/12108126/gender-wage-gap-explained-
real)

I'm glad to see that more sources are coming to the same consensus on the
subject.

