
Ask HN: Any good collaboratively built documentation on good parenting? - davidpelayo
Lastly, I wonder whether there is a good collaborative resource providing consensus-based good parenting practises and guidelines, from a general point of view: Which, of course, would include, techniques, methodologies or guidelines depending on the age, type, culture or context where children grow up.<p>Am I requesting for a kind of an impossible-to-find asset?<p>I&#x27;d appreciate your thoughts on this.
======
enoch_r
I'm not against parenting advice in general--sometimes it's invaluable, like
when you have a specific problem that's impacting you/your child's life, and
you need to find a solution.

In terms of long-term parenting philosophies, though, I'd strongly suggest
reading Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids by Bryan Caplan:
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004OA64Q6/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004OA64Q6/)

It's a book length treatment of the fact that twin studies have demonstrated
_extremely_ convincingly that as long as you meet a pretty low bar for decent
parenting (you aren't such an obviously bad parent that you would get rejected
by adoption agencies) the impact of your parenting on your kids' lives is
minimal at best. You won't make them smarter, you won't change their
personality to be more adventurous or cautious, you won't succeed in molding
them with all the life lessons you've learned, and you won't put them on a
path to happiness (or unhappiness) when they grow up.

This may sound somewhat bleak if you're hoping to tiger-mom your children to
Harvard. But it's also freeing--you can stop worrying, enjoy the ride more,
and maybe most importantly, give your kids a fun childhood they'll look back
on with pleasure.

~~~
mrfusion
Wouldn’t tiger moms be a counterpoint to that thesis though? They obviously
have a huge impact on their children’s lives.

~~~
taneq
The twin studies suggest that you can "break" your kids (and damage their
outcomes to some degree) if you go too far in most directions, but that as
long as you don't do this and you stay fairly moderate, their outcomes depend
far more on nature than nurture.

In the case of tiger moms, the confounding factor is that along with their
overbearing parenting they probably passed along some highly effective genes,
though the kids probably would have been just as effective (maybe even more-
so) with a more relaxed upbringing.

------
blowski
Best parenting practise - ignore most advice from people you don’t know. It
tends to be totally subjective, contradictory, and faddish.

Give your kids loads of love, in whatever way feels right to you and your
family.

~~~
breakyerself
There is lots of room for variation, but there are also things that are well
established scientifically to have a known effect.

Talking to babies more helps them learn language faster.

Reading to children helps them become stronger readers.

spanking children makes them more likely to have problems with aggression.
Later in life it's a risk factor for criminality and problems with mental
health.

~~~
duderific
> spanking children makes them more likely to have problems with aggression.

I don't spank, but up until 30 or 40 years ago, spanking was a perfectly
acceptable form of punishment, and probably most kids were spanked at one time
or another. And it wasn't like society was significantly more aggressive than
it is now. So I don't know how you can make that sweeping generalization -- at
least post links to some studies.

Here is one study that found that the link between spanking and aggression is
greatly determined by the context in which the spanking occurs:
[https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED415019.pdf](https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED415019.pdf)

~~~
nostrademons
To be fair, society _was_ significantly more aggressive than it is now:

[http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/30/5-facts-
abou...](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/30/5-facts-about-crime-
in-the-u-s/)

Violent crime rates both in America and within the developed world at large
are way down. This is usually overlooked because we've now become
hypersensitized to remaining acts of violence - a "mass shooter" that kills
nobody but themselves is now all over the Internet in real time, while when I
was a kid in the 80s, everyday violence within large swathes of American
society would just be a "just another homicide in a blighted urban area, don't
go there". But by the statistics, America today is _a lot_ safer than 30 years
ago.

Now, I have no idea whether this is because of spanking or not, and drawing a
causal connection is much harder in the face of all the conflating changes
within society since then. But it's factually incorrect to say that "society
wasn't significantly more aggressive than it is now", because it _was_.

~~~
rayiner
> Violent crime rates both in America and within the developed world at large
> are way down.

Except they're still higher than they were in 1960 (and kids raised in the
1930s and 1940s certainly got spanked).

~~~
karmajunkie
Citation needed.

~~~
nostrademons
He's correct on a factual level:

[https://www.brennancenter.org/blog/americas-faulty-
perceptio...](https://www.brennancenter.org/blog/americas-faulty-perception-
crime-rates)

There's a wider context, though, where violent crime during 1940-1960 was
abnormally _low_ compared to the earlier part of the century (which had
violent crime rates similar to today), and then it shot up in the 1970s. And
the 1900s in general has been quite low to historical homicide rates in
colonial times.

[http://sites.nationalacademies.org/cs/groups/dbassesite/docu...](http://sites.nationalacademies.org/cs/groups/dbassesite/documents/webpage/dbasse_083892.pdf)

All of this fits my point that you can't really draw conclusions one way or
another from the crime rate.

------
arikr
I think different parents have different goals, so probably the best is to
read a bunch of books and pick out the ones you like.

Some suggestions:

The Gardener and the Carpenter

Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids

[https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/05/the-
war...](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/05/the-war-against-
boys/304659/)

The Well-Behaved Child: Discipline That Really Works!

How to Talk So Kids Will Listen

Raising An Emotionally Intelligent Child

And Baby Makes Three

The Rational Male - Positive Masculinity

Parenting With Love And Logic

~~~
upbeatlinux
All great suggestions.

I'd also like to add Janet Lansbury [1] as a great resource

[1] [http://www.janetlansbury.com/](http://www.janetlansbury.com/)

~~~
thisisananth
I also want to add the resources from
[https://www.handinhandparenting.org/](https://www.handinhandparenting.org/).
The techniques mentioned like Special Time and staylistening have helped a lot
with my child.

------
auntienomen
Creating collaborative parenting documentation sounds like an invitation to
endless flamewars. People are intensely emotionally involved in their
decisions, and the outcomes are very noisy, hence difficult to measure the
effect of parental decisions.

You're probably better off asking for collaborative documentation on the
relative benefits of Democratic and Republican polices.

~~~
sudouser
agreed, you should only allow editing by people you know. not random internet
strangers

~~~
jedberg
But then you'd be stuck in a bubble of people who already think like you.

While there would be flame wars, you might get some good ideas from people
outside your network.

~~~
sudouser
but then you’d have to do some curation and deleting unwanted comments by
trolls and people that just want to comment, turning it into a full time job

------
scardine
I like ask and answer at
[https://parenting.stackexchange.com/](https://parenting.stackexchange.com/)
\- there are some good advice there.

~~~
snthpy
I was going to mention this as well. I don't know about "good" but it's
definitely collaboratively built.

------
adityapurwa
My personal thoughts.

1\. Treat them with love. 2\. No hitting that damages them. 3\. Appreciate
them like you appreciate an adult. 4\. Dont lie, ever, even if it was a joke
or making them fooled. (Like saying ill buy you candies if you stop crying,
yet you didnt actually buy the candies). 5\. Be there, and listen. 6\. Never
argue with your spouse in front of them, or in front of anybody. 7\. Dont
lecture them in public. 8\. They are smart, dont let them do the mistakes that
you once did. 9\. What they eat shapes them. 10\. Help them fix their
mistakes, no need to blame them. (Broke the glass? Help them fix it. 11\. If
you have multiple children, if you buy a present, buy for all of them.

~~~
csomar
> 2\. No hitting that damages them.

hoo. what? No. Hitting is a hardline. I understand that it is popular in some
cultures but I have yet to see any studies that confirm its usefulness. If
anything, it was morally damaging for me.

So no, please. Don't your child, or any other kid. Or anyone for that matter
(excluding self defense)

~~~
adityapurwa
If you imagine hitting here as me forming fist and hit them, then maybe i
chose the wrong word. Its more like tapping them, hands open. I usually do it
when im in crowd and my kid fools around that might disturb people. I’ll tap
them twice to get their attention, usually on their shoulder, but never on
their head. Then tell them what is wrong with their behaviour. If they do it
again ill tap them again and they will know what it means. I never hit my kids
with a fist.

I mostly avoid shouting or speaking loudly, so the best way for me to get
their attention is usually by “hitting” them.

No hitting that damages them includes moral damage, but then again its hard to
measure.

~~~
DanBC
No, people know what you mean. They're telling you that all forms of hitting
children are wrong.

------
nartz
I'm reading a lot of these comments that say "good parenting is too
subjective" \- I must say i STRONGLY disagree - and am a little surprised to
see so many comments like those from the HN crowd. I wonder how many of those
are actual parents?

I think there are MANY pieces of parenting wisdom that are VERY accepted. For
instance:

\- giving kids 'structure' i.e. repetition, nighttime routines, bedtime to
ensure they sleep well, etc

\- consequences for negative actions <\--- big one

\- creating spaces and norms for activities, i.e. reading, eating, etc

\- playing in certain ways including imaginative games, etc, that are age-
appropriate

\- ensuring lots of exercise and play that encourages dexterity, use of all
body muscles, etc

anyway, i could go on and on.

~~~
abannin
\- consequences for negative actions <\--- big one

And probably more important, rewards for positive actions. Positive
reinforcement is pretty powerful in general.

~~~
glaberficken
Parent of 2 (8 and 3 yo).

Rewards for positive actions have a few side-effects that I have observed
though:

1) Individuals start expecting positive reinforcement for everything they do.
Doing it for the external reward instead of finding the intrinsic reward for
doing the right thing on their own. This is probably extensively researched
already, although i don't have sources handy right now.

2) Along time, positive reinforcements behave in accordance with the "law of
diminishing returns". i.e. If you always reward positive actions with some
standard reward, it will lose effect over time. With the danger of the
positive action not feeling worthwhile anymore.

I thus became a great believer in the importance of negative consequences for
bad behavior. I mostly apply (within reason) Shame and Restriction of freedoms
to punish my kids for bad behavior (reserving the occasional physical slap for
very serious offenses). Shame is a motivator that interests me a lot as a
parent. I think it is an essential motivator in society in general, but the
most delicate one. Too much Shame can also make you socially inept.

In the end I think its always about the right balance...

~~~
bcantrill
Your children are young, and the tools that are working for you now will not
be as effective as they get older. In particular, if you are leaning on shame
and restriction of freedom to punish, you are sowing the seeds of teenage
rebellion. You can only restrict so much freedom from a teenager, and shame
only matters in as much as your opinion of them matters to them; abuse either
of these, and you will find yourself with a teenager who dedicates themselves
to distancing themselves as much as they can from you.

In my experience, you should rather focus on building character by developing
the intrinsic rewards for good behavior: we do the right thing because it is
the right thing, even if it is a more difficult path. No amount of shame and
punishment can get a child to do that; it has to come from something deeper
and more positive.

------
pgt
Not a parent (yet), but there's a great book for dealing with kids (aged 2-99)
by Faber & Mazlish titled, “How To Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids
Will Talk” that I would strongly recommend.

~~~
xrd
Totally agree, a fantastic book.

------
xupybd
I'm not a parent so take this with a grain of salt.

There are so many fads in parenting and they change all the time. Fads are,
IMHO, dangerous and kids are not something you want to experiment on (too
much). Finding someone who has raised happy children into the sort of people
you'd like your kids to be would be the best way to go. Might be tricky to do
in the modern world but if you can find a community of like minded people
you'd be surprised how many people love to pass on their wisdom to a younger
generation.

~~~
hluska
You know, before I had a child, I would upvoted this and likely written a
comment about how much your opinion matches mine. But, now I have a two year
old and, let me tell you, these little people develop strong personalities at
a young age.

My Mom and Dad were great parents, but I have to raise Lauren differently. It
isn't that my Mom and Dad raised my sister and I wrong, it's just that my
sister and I were our own little people with our own personalities.

If you ever want a wonderful guide to this (in real time), you should come
experience bath time at the Hluska household. It's something else...

------
geetfun
It’s hard to arrive at a consensus of what constitutes good parenting. For
example, my sister wants her kids to be doctors, and so all activities and
goals are oriented toward that. I prefer my kids choose a career path that
brings personal happiness and freedom of time. As such, my methods and KPIs
are different. Parenting is sort of one of those things that can easily
degrade into a constant stream of fomo.

~~~
dominotw
> my sister wants her kids to be doctors

Thats such an Indian stereotype :D. Source: me.

------
throwaway84742
People commenting on this post, please state if you have kids or not. The
reason is, people who don’t have kids tend to be extremely naive about
parenting.

My take: there’s no such thing as universal “good parenting” advice. Kids are
different, and what works well for one can wreck another for the rest of her
life.

Full disclosure: I’m a father of a “difficult” 15 year old.

~~~
burfog
OK: got more kids than fingers, and no amputations yet!

You may be dealing with toxic friends, failed perfectionism (can't meet a
possibly self-imposed standard so just give up entirely), social rejection due
to cluelessness, depression, an inability to picture a future self and work
toward satisfying the needs of that future self...

The kid has also had 15 years to learn how to manipulate you.

Give it your best shot, but be prepared to let go. Besides the possibilities
of "not your fault" and "you were awful", there is the "ordinary
imperfection". At some point, sooner or later, you have to kick them out the
door and hope they manage.

------
mcgin
[https://www.parentingscience.com/](https://www.parentingscience.com/)

"Founded by an evolutionary anthropologist, this parenting resource is for
critical thinkers -- people who want to understand child development from the
perspectives of psychology, anthropology, evolution, and cognitive
neuroscience.

I’ve got opinions. But who cares? You might be a scientist, physician, or
teacher. Maybe you're an educated, skeptical layperson who loves science.
Whatever the case, you don't need a sermon. You need evidence. You can draw
your own conclusions.

So here it is: No folk theories. No preachy advice. No authoritarian
pronouncements or pseudoscientific political dogma. Instead, you’ll find my
analysis of the research, fully-referenced so you know where to go if you want
to dig deeper yourself."

------
jedberg
I love this idea. While every family and child is different, having all the
opinions in one place might be helpful. Even if some of the opinions are
conflicting, at least they would all be there so that you could read through
them all and choose for yourself what you think is best for you and your
family.

I don't know of any such resource. I know there are a lot of "mommy groups" on
Facebook where they pass around articles and stuff, but those groups tend to
have a bias towards one type of parenting or another.

But at the end of the day, there is no "right way" or "best way", there is
only "your way". It's kind of like product management -- you do a bunch of
research, choose a path, then gather data as to the outcomes, and change tack
if necessary.

~~~
davidpelayo
Thanks! I understand the potential conflicts on different approaches at so
many different discussions.

However, as you've mentioned, it would be awesome to have a resource putting
different opinions together.

As per in one of the comments below suggested, I've created this repo:
[https://github.com/davidpelayo/awesome-
parenting](https://github.com/davidpelayo/awesome-parenting) so I'll be
tracking all the info posted here and others findings.

Thanks for reading.

------
snikeris
[http://fallibleideas.com/taking-children-
seriously](http://fallibleideas.com/taking-children-seriously)

~~~
mcqueenjordan
+1, this article spells out what I think is a major miss in parenting. I wrote
some small thoughts on it here: [https://whoami.sh/thought/taking-children-
seriously](https://whoami.sh/thought/taking-children-seriously)

~~~
snikeris
I like the style of your blog.

------
phugoid
Probably an impossible-to-find asset. Such a collaborative effort is likely to
attract the most vocal and opinionated people, many of whom do not have
children of their own. I am simply extrapolating from the median author of the
parenting books I've read (and thrown away afterwards).

You may find that successful parents who balance two or more kids with full-
time jobs and some measure of sanity will not have the interest or energy to
put into such a project. The more enlightened among them may also hold their
tongues, having realized that what works for their kids is not universal.

------
callmeed
[https://winnie.com/](https://winnie.com/)

Favorite books:

How to Talk so Kids Will Listen. And Listen So Kids Will Talk.

Smart But Scattered

~~~
metabagel
"How to Talk so Kids Will Listen. And Listen So Kids Will Talk" is a fantastic
book. It's clearly (and compassionately) written and has cartoons which depict
exchanges between parent and child.

~~~
deadelvis
You should really try the original that book is based on: Between Parent and
Child - H. G. Ginott

------
tboyd47
No, but that's actually not a bad idea. I agree with what most commenters here
have said: don't listen to advice from strangers on parenting. But at the same
time, I would expect that advice to regress to some sort of mean if enough
contributors were involved.

Why not make an "awesome-parenting" GitHub repo? :)

~~~
davidpelayo
I created it a few days ago, with another name. But I really liked your
proposal. Find it here: [https://github.com/davidpelayo/awesome-
parenting](https://github.com/davidpelayo/awesome-parenting)

Feel free to add stuff. Really, I'm just asking this to get different opinions
from people worldwide.

------
tmaly
I am working putting a form together to target learning activities. I guess
this would be more focused on learning and not parenting in general. My
sister-in-law is an OT and she always gives us great learning techniques and I
figured it would be helpful to put this all together in one place.

------
watwut
No. There is no consensus on anything. People argue a lot. If you have
problem, read multiple things and try them to see which works.

Rule of thumb, if it looks like extreme it likely is. If it makes you insecure
or is a lot of tiring work to _your_ family then it is bad advice.

~~~
davidpelayo
I don't know if it works for your or not. But, to me, it makes lot of sense to
gather as much info as possible so that when I have doubts on doing something,
I can query first what info says and maybe the decision-making process is
better.

------
thisisananth
I also want to add the resources from
[https://www.handinhandparenting.org/](https://www.handinhandparenting.org/).
The techniques mentioned like Special Time and staylistening have helped a lot
with my child.

------
Clanan
I recommend finding books based on actual parenting research, rather than
collaborative or consensus-based sources. Consensus does not mean truth. There
are countless parenting myths bandied about that are based on nothing more
than idle blog posts or simple social inertia. Parenting advice is especially
susceptible to "feel good" myths which sound like common sense, but aren't
actually true. (I've found that most "consensus" advice is just
rationalization validating the giver's choices, e.g. saving for college,
bedtime routines, etc.)

In my experience, pediatricians often have good advice on relevant books and
topics.

~~~
ryanobjc
This is the comment I came to write.

I’m a father of a newborn. And I agree with people who say that universal
advice doesn’t work. You find what works for you, and as long as it’s safe you
roll with it.

I also agree that generalized non studied consensus is not useful if you want
at the truth. It’s a fallacy: just because many people believe it, doesn’t
make it true.

Besides, advice from non parents/people without skin in the game is “taken
under advisement”. Unless you’re there all night dealing with baby, your sleep
advice can suck it.

------
DoreenMichele
I have no idea if the asset you want exists.

I think the best thing you can do is keep in mind that you are raising future
adults. That detail seems to frequently be overlooked. I found it a very
valuable metric by which to measure my parenting decisions.

Best.

------
openfuture
I don't think you could have this without it devolving into what is
essentially a religious debate but I'd be very interested in a collaboratively
built wiki of age appropriate challenges or documenting developmental
milestones vs skills they unlock (similar to tropes vs stories on tvtropes)

For example I've heard kids can go to school when they can reach the ear on
the opposite side by reaching their arm over the head. Also at some age they
start to understand non-literal meaning i.e. sarcasm but until then they are
oblivious. This would be very useful knowledge to concentrate into a wiki.

------
davidpelayo
Thanks everybody. I didn't expect this massive amount of reactions. I've tried
to update the github repo gathering the info you all provided me (mainly
references, websites and books).

If anyone wants to raise a PR fixing english errors (non-native speaker here)
I'd be much appreciated ([https://github.com/davidpelayo/awesome-
parenting](https://github.com/davidpelayo/awesome-parenting)).

I'll also add a spanish version soon.

------
tashmahalic
There is definitely useful parenting knowledge that's not intuitive to many
parents.

I'm building a site to collaboratively document topics like this. I just
created a "Good Parenting" topic in case you and others in this thread would
like to pool their knowledge into something concise and useful.

[https://grok.how/24/Good-Parenting?source=hn](https://grok.how/24/Good-
Parenting?source=hn)

------
jpfed
I find the advice not to listen to strangers bizarre. Maybe it's because the
following is assumed, but since it hasn't been stated yet:

Try to practice evidence-based parenting.

Instead of having arguments about parenting, try to understand what the
science says, and if the science doesn't say anything conclusive, critically
evaluate the anecdotes you receive from other parents.

~~~
foreigner
The problem is there is very little good science available about parenting,
because it is considered unethical to experiment on children.

------
analog31
No new parents' bookshelf is complete without _der Struwwelpeter_ :

[http://store.doverpublications.com/0486284697.html](http://store.doverpublications.com/0486284697.html)

Spoiler: It's a terrible parenting book by modern standards, but good for
cheering up the parents after the kids are in bed.

------
codingdave
There is no consensus on parenting. Every family and every child is different.

The one piece of (still opinionated) advice I give is to keep in mind your
goal - it is not to raise "good children". It is to raise 'good' adults,
capable of living their own lives, with success, and adapting to all life may
throw at them.

------
jakubp
If you judge by reactions of a large number of parents across the world,
"Parent Effectiveness Training" book (and training!) seems like a great
resource. Interestingly, his approach to parenting has applications in daily
life with adults in general :)

------
zamber
There's
[https://parenting.stackexchange.com/search?q=resources](https://parenting.stackexchange.com/search?q=resources)

Other than that - it's a fundamentally political question.

------
stevendgarcia
Consensus based parenting seems like a good idea when you've got one kid and
think you have the game figured out. Then you have a second child and see that
much of what you learned gets tossed out the window. That's when you realize,
every child is different, and there is no one-size-fits-all approach. It's
also a divisive topic, with two camps (nurture/caring vs tough
love/discipline) which makes a consensus all but impossible.

All I can tell you is what has worked for me:

* Lose the goo-goo talk and chat with them like people from day one. They will learn to hold a conversation a lot earlier and talk circles around their classmates. If possible, expose them to a second language early - they will pick up other languages later in life with ease. It also helps them to think in different ways.

* Hitting and aggressive behavior scares and confuses a child so much that the lesson you are trying to teach them is often lost. There are other forms of discipline which are more effective in the long term (isolation, taking away something they like). But most important what you want to do is foster a sense of understanding about right vs wrong. This is why kids favorite question is "why?" We often take what we know for granted and expect this new mind to pick things up the way we did, even though that's not how it works. Be firm and don't roll over every time, but also be flexible and pick your battles. Not every hill is worth dying on.

* Empathy is your greatest tool and most important lesson. Use it often. Even when you are angry, resist the urge to scream till you are red in the face. Take a deep breath and get down to their level, eye-to-eye. Find out what's upsetting them and vocalize how it affects you as well. Show by example what it means to feel what others are feeling.

* Use positive reinforcment. Reward them when they do well. Shower them with affirmation and praise, especially in the early years as it shapes emotional health. Inspiring them to do well is far more effective than scaring them into it.

* Socialize them early. Regular trips to the parks, play dates.. whatever it takes. The sooner they learn to be around other kids the faster they will gain the social skills that will aid their success later in life.

* Make time for them. Feeding, clothing, sheltering them are just the beginning. They need to play, talk, explore and there is no greater gift you can give a child (or anyone) than your time. All too often bad behavior is their way of turning your head, because any attention is better than no attention.

There's probably more but those are the basics which work for both of my kids,
who have very different temperaments. Good luck!

------
ddtaylor
Does anyone have a good list of websites that provide educational content
(Math, Writing, etc.) and let you track your kids progress? For example, Khan
Academy is pretty good, does anyone know of some other resources?

Thank you!

------
rb808
Yeah its talk to your parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends, teachers,
neighbours. Which is why there are many different cultures that do things
different ways and most people turn out great.

------
jriley
A course called Scientific Secrets for Raising Kids Who Thrive, available
through Great Courses Plus.

A less scientific approach is a reference book called The Pocket Parent.

~~~
davidpelayo
Thanks for the info!

------
deadelvis
Not a collab resource but the best resource I know of: Between Parent and
Child - H. G. Ginott

~~~
davidpelayo
Thanks for your recommendation!

------
megaman22
Don't overthink things. Just do your best, and you'll be setting them up
better than 90% of children.

------
ythn
"good parenting" seems incredibly subjective. Say your 3 year old takes an
interest in opposite gender clothing/toys. Do "good parents": a) encourage
this behavior and buy more opposite gender toys/clothes, b) discourage this
buy not buying more c) do nothing, wait and see if child grows out of it

------
kschiffer
I don't know. Can't we just use common sense instead?

~~~
davidpelayo
Of course we can. But maybe it's not bad to have extra resources, books,
opinions, techniques and methodologies you might want to look at to reflect on
whether your common sense makes actual sense or not? I think it's healthy to
be open to listen other opinions and evaluate your owns.

