
Ask HN: Best Startup City - Outside the USA? - lzw
I know the recommendation is that your startup should locate in the Bay Area or another startup hub for the best access to resources and networking.<p>But for many people, the US is not an option.  These days you can't necessarily easily get a visa, especially if you're a young startup.<p>So, the question is, what location is the most like SF in all the ways that are beneficial for starting a startup but outside the USA?<p>We're a two person team.  Founders have been together for a decade.  One is engineer with deep experience, other is marketing and design expert. We're already slightly successful with our first product that has pointed the way to the Big Product for us.<p>We can relocate just about anywhere in the world, except the USA.  Our passports will allow us to visit most countries without a visa and we should have little trouble getting work/residency visas in countries that welcome entrepreneurs.<p>So, where's the silicon valley besides silicon valley?<p>We've thought about:
Toronto- seems to have a very strong startup scene, but this is just an impression.<p>Bratislava- Near vienna, but relatively low cost. Seems to be growing in leaps and bounds and has a well educated populace.  Environment of low regulation and capitalism, so this could be the startup hub of the next decade.  Might not be that now.<p>Big Cities in Asia-  There are a number of candidates here, from Manila to Bangkok. Seems the creation of a middle class has unleashed a wave of creativity and desire to create internet startups amongst the youth in asia.  Hong Kong is an obvious possibility.<p>But these are just impressions.  We'd like to find a place where there is the possibility of having relatively low costs, since the access to venture capital will not be the same as it would be if we were in the Bay Area.<p>But access to talent, and more importantly, a startup culture seems like it would be really valuable.<p>But where can you find this best outside the US?
======
harscoat
* Berlin is bursting with new ideas & startup culture, cheap, great people & scene (access to money less easy but changing fast). Scott Wheeler (<http://www.directededge.com/>) a HN alumnus is based there. The guys from Dopplr (@ Nokia now but it seems they are up to sthg)

* not just Bratislava but Vienna, I heard it is also great to startup there (Schnitzelconf. sept 7 there)

* Zürich (ETH university, many Google engineers there)

* and btw Chile offers you $40 000 to start there (not sure that is a very convenient location, but that's a bit of cash and the wine is good;) my2cts Good luck with your venture.

~~~
dirtyaura
A vote for Berlin. I'd definitely pick Berlin over London at the moment.

London is really expensive to live and financial sector is sucking in
programming talent with their lucrative pay checks. I lived in London for a
year and I feel that many smaller cities in Europe have as vibrant startup
scene as London.

Berlin on the other hand is the cheapest capital in Western Europe, startup
scene is becoming more and more lively and it's location is great for moving
around Europe.

Nordics are also an option: Helsinki, Stockholm and Copenhagen all have quite
lively startup scene. In Helsinki, where I live, early stage investing is
improving with very fast pace. There are no VCs here, though, but almost
anywhere in Europe, you have to take look for investors from abroad in any
case. But granted, Nordics are pricier to live than Berlin, although not that
bad as London.

------
quizbiz
I am shocked Tel Aviv is yet to be mentioned. Tel Aviv and the area are an
incredible place. Israel is home to more publicly traded companies than all of
Europe, 2nd to USA and Canada. More patents per capita than anywhere else,
etc. Lots of young people right out of the army eager to organize with friends
with the chutzpah to challenge the status quo and change the world.

See <http://www.startupnationbook.com/> A fantastic read.

Though living there if you don't have Jewish family may not really be an
option, visiting for business and pleasure is easy.

~~~
Locke1689
Out of curiosity, I looked it up -- Israel may even be harder to immigrate to
than the United States. Background: I am a US citizen, but my mom's family is
Jewish. Most of my mom's family came over from Hungary during WWII, while the
ones who stayed behind were killed in the Holocaust. While I am not a
practicing Jew (my immediate family is mostly atheist now), this should
actually allow me to immigrate to Israel as an Israeli national.

Here's the tricky part. First, Israel has an acceptance of dual citizenship,
so that is not a problem. However, an immigrated citizen is also subject to
conscription in the IDF, just like every other Israeli citizen (and that
includes women). It seems moving to Israel and then having to do 3 years of
military service would put quite a damper on your startup plans.

If you're not Jewish and of Jewish ancestry? You're screwed. There is no easy
way to gain a long term visa otherwise. So I would honestly have to put Tel
Aviv at the bottom of the list, not the top, for international startup cities.

~~~
ido

        If you're not Jewish and of Jewish ancestry? 
        You're screwed. There is no easy way to gain 
        a long term visa otherwise.
    

I personally know several non-jewish ex-pats living and working in Israel (and
a ton of jewish ones), so it must be at least possible (although might not be
easy).

~~~
Locke1689
If you know how they got their visa that could be very interesting. From what
I read, the other major way to gain work entry is to have a company sponsor
you (which your own startup doesn't usually count for that).

------
DrJokepu
London.

There are so many things happening here, every day, every night. The Anglo-
Saxon cultural origins of England (which are shared by North America) mean
people regard individualism and independence a lot more favourably than
elsewhere which creates an ideal climate for starting up your own company.

As a leading global city, people are drawn here from all around the World
every day so there's an incredibly large talent pool here. By definition,
everyone speaks English here which can make things easier. As one of the main
financial centres of the World, obtaining financing here is a lot more easier
than at many other places.

England being an EU member, you can enjoy the advantages of being located
within the EU (hiring, easy access to the European market, etc.); at the same
time, there's considerably less government regulation than in other EU
countries so you would have to deal with a lot less red tape.

~~~
b3b0p
What is the cost of living like there? I've always gotten the impression it's
very expensive to live there, especially for housing and rent.

I've also never been there, but want to visit someday.

~~~
DrJokepu
The costs if living in London are similar to those in New York City. Some
things are more expensive, some things are cheaper but it's generally the same
"ballpark".

------
soyelmango
You don't say where your passports are from, but if you're in Europe, there's
London.

There are many startup and entrepreneur events on meetup.com, such as minibar,
london bloggers.

Also, in terms of a geographical 'valley', there's Silicon Roundabout (
[http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=silicon+roundabout&...](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=silicon+roundabout&aq=f&aqi=g4g-m2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)
)

Ah, relatively low costs - that could be the kicker. London is an expensive
place to live. That said, one can still live frugally by cooking for yourself
rather than eating out, and the GBP has fallen in value so it's become a
cheaper place for those dropping foreign currency.

Finally, GOOD LUCK in your venture - keep us posted on your unnamed product,
and where you're heading, in whatever sense of the word :)

~~~
dejv
I can recommend Brighton (100km south of London), which is great for new media
kind of startups with huge pool of musicians, designers and such. It is also
much cheaper than London.

~~~
lgeek
Now that you're mentioning other cities in UK, I'm currently doing an
internship at a startup in Oxford. From what the guys are saying, the city is
a great environment for startups, with an active community and a number of
VCs, but it's not that much more cheap than London.

------
ganjianwei
Singapore. The government seems hell bent on kick starting the startup scene.

[http://www.e27.sg/2010/07/26/singapore-startup-government-
fu...](http://www.e27.sg/2010/07/26/singapore-startup-government-funding-
chart/)

[http://www.spring.gov.sg/Entrepreneurship/FS/FS/Pages/young-...](http://www.spring.gov.sg/Entrepreneurship/FS/FS/Pages/young-
entrepreneurs-scheme-start-ups.aspx) "This scheme provides funding support of
up to S$50,000 for youths to set up their innovative startup."

However, the startup culture and network is not as vibrant as it is in Silicon
Valley/Bay Area. Also, I hear top quality developers are difficult to hire.
That being said, no strings attached seed grants are bound to help to some
extent.

~~~
lzw
Lots to recommend singapore, but getting a work pass looks like it will be
fairly difficult.

~~~
andycroll
Getting a work pass is bureaucratic but not difficult. Working in the tech
industry plus degree is a shoo in for a work pass. If you can fill out a
straightforward form and photocopy a certificate...

------
mtw
Montreal, Canada, for:

* Strong, diverse and friendly startup scene. From 2 to 5 startup events every week. see calendar <http://63sq.rs/52c> (View @mtlnewtech for more). Many local developer groups (montrealonrails, montrealpython, phpquebec, js-montreal,dotnetmontreal, uxmtl, etc.)

* Strong existing angel investors + new VC funds being created. You mention Toronto but actually there is more money flowing in Quebec than anywhere else in Canada

* Montreal is half european and half north american, half-french, half-english. Lots of diversity, lots of creatives. Literature : "Nearly a fifth of the Montreal region's workforce forms a super-creative core: techies & cultural & entertainment types ... Montreal also benefits from its dense, compact geography. Most experts agree that innovation and productivity are driven by density, and Montreal ranks third among all North American cities in average population density"

* Montreal is 2nd happiest city in the world <http://bit.ly/dAWLW5>

* 4 universities, plus engineering and business schools, such as McGill University, Hec Montréal, @SUPINFOMontreal or ETS

* cost of living is cheap. Not as cheap as Bangalore of course, but cheaper than Toronto, Boston and of course cheaper than San Francisco or London, U.K.

* lots of initiatives, one startup incubator (@bolidea), another one coming in September, blogs and publications dedicated to the community ( <http://montrealtechwatch.com> or also upcoming @nextmontreal), student/entrepreneur groups (@Startupifier), startup weekends (one coming in early October), conferences drawing hundreds of attendees (wordcamp, rocococamps, startupcamp, podcamp etc), big startup space soon (@notmanhouse)

* plus of course many technology projects launched every month, in average 1 or 2 new products launching every week. OstrichApp launched 10 days ago featured on apple.com, BeyondTheRack funding, statusnet, vanilla forums, Tungle etc.

~~~
daveungerer
Can someone explain the Montreal craigslist apartment listings to me? What
does the "4 1/2" in "2br - 4 1/2" mean?

~~~
jperras
When there's a listing that states "X 1/2", it means that there are X rooms in
the apartment. A 4 1/2 is usually 2 bedrooms, a living room and a kitchen area
- the ad will usually indicate if this is not the case.

------
speleding
Amsterdam has:

\- The largest internet exchange in the world, which means very cheap and high
quality colo

\- Several large universities with CS departments in the vicinity should you
need team members

\- Excellent quality of life

\- People speak several languages, including English

\- A great startup scene

\- Tax breaks on innovative (software) products

Downsides: not cheap and hard to get a working permit if you're from outside
the EU. Don't go there if you get offended by a very liberal value system.

~~~
tomh-
Can you elaborate on that great startup scene? I'm only aware of companies
with relations to "thenextweb" and their founders, but don't hear a lot about
other Amsterdam based startups that much. I'm not aware of any regular meetups
or stuff like that.

~~~
speleding
With great startup scene, I mean there are bunch of cool startups within
biking distance of each other (To name just a few <http://www2.layar.com/>,
<http://www.phusion.nl/>, <http://www.ebuddy.com/>,
<http://www.supersaas.com/>, <http://www.guerrilla-games.com/>). So you're
bound to run into fellow entrepreneurs.

It also has a large number of headquarters of multinationals (Cisco, Philips,
etc) so expat services are well developed.

I'm not really into generally accessible meetups myself, but I'm sure I've
seen a few announcements come by of various functions.

------
DanBlake
Hard to believe nobody has mentioned Tel Aviv. Definitely the #1 spot outside
the USA. Soooo many startups coming out of israel lately.

~~~
nostromo
Tel Aviv has many pluses:

* Good programming talent.

* Access to capital. (Yossi Vardi alone funds a lot of startups.)

* Great English skills.

And some downsides:

* Young tech people can be whisked away by the military in a heartbeat. (And the draft can go up to 40 years old I hear.)

* Not as cheap as it used to be. Talented people make only a bit less than they would in the US.

* The culture tends to be more argumentative than the US. You can find yourself spending too much time arguing about minor details and not building product.

* Design talent can be atrocious. They aren't as focused on aesthetics as Western Europe or the US.

* Ethnicity based immigration policies.

* Flying there is a nightmare for non-Jews (sorry to put it bluntly, but it's true, I know from first-hand experience). And if you hire a young male Arab in the US, they will probably refuse to go back after visiting the airport once.

~~~
orp
Most Israelis get drafted at age 18. They get out of the army at ages 20/21 or
so. People out of top quality computer related military units have a lot of
experience both as hackers and managers. There's really no being 'whisked away
by the military' once you've served your term (Other than reserve duty, but
that's relatively minor).

------
icegreentea
Try Waterloo Canada! It's a couple hours out of Toronto, and has a pretty
strong technology and startup sector. RIM is based here, and many large tech
and software companies have their Canadian offices (the non marketing offices)
in the area.

It has the University of Waterloo sitting there, which disgorges tons of CS
and engineering students every 4 months looking for coop jobs. I'm currently
attending UW, so I might be a bit biased, but I really believe that taking on
waterloo coops is generally a good experience for any company. There are
plenty of students there who enjoy working at startups (many graduates go on
to form their own startups actually), and the university goes out of its way
to encourage students to attempt startups.

Definitely worth looking into. (and more companies offering coop jobs is
always welcomed)

~~~
loumf
Also, OpenText is there.

------
adamgries
Hands down, Tel Aviv.

London, Beijing, Boston, Tokyo (all places where I have been and interacted
with the entrepreneurial community, at least in consumer internet) have
nothing on it.

There are naturally downsides to Tel Aviv, which are mentioned below and chief
among which is the stupid immigration policy which probably makes it hell for
non-Jews to get in to work on a start up.

However, if you can figure out a way to work there, here's what I think Tel
Aviv has going for it:

1\. High appetite for risk and hunger for success/opportunity among young
people. Lots of the best people are technical, and many come from middle class
backgrounds.

2\. Highly entrepreneurial society/culture.

3\. Strong presence of many US Firms, VC and technological (intel, google
etc..). Very tight communication lines between the Valley and Israel (many
entrepreneurs and investors spend time in both places during the year).

4\. Lots of highly skilled engineers and somewhat lower costs (by US
standards).

5\. A city that never sleeps and has wifi everywhere.

I mean this quite literally. You can go out at 4am to one of Tel Aviv's many
cafe/restaurant/bars, order a shot of Jager, a wiener schnitzel with fries and
a side salad, and an espresso to top it off, all while enjoying great wi-fi
and being only minutes (walking on flat ground!) from the beach (where as
opposed to SF, the water is actually warm most of the year). Nobody will even
give you a second look.

Try that anywhere but New York City (with its six months of crappy weather)
and I guarantee you will want to shoot yourself.

6\. Hot weather throughout the year. No need to deal with stupid externalities
like snow storms or days where you get SAD because of the weather (see
London...).

7\. Great research universities.

8\. Only hours flight from all major european cities. If you need to fly to
London for a day or two, no problem. It would cost you a few hundred dollars -
and it's shorter than flying from NYC to SF.

9\. Tons of amassed experience in building tech startups.

10\. Access to capital.

~~~
lzw
Sounds great in many regards. However, it looks like Israel is happy to have
us visit for 90 days, but not interested in having us relocate there for an
extended period, unless there is a local business who wishes to sponsor us.

~~~
ido
That seems to be the case pretty much everywhere you'd go where you're not
already a citizen.

~~~
uptownben
I believe the OP said he has a European passport which would probably permit
him to work in most parts of Europe. The US apparently is not an option
because of it's immigration restrictions, so we probably could not consider
Israel an option because of it immigration restrictions also.

------
ig1
London, UK. It's expensive, but it has a startup culture that's probably only
second to the Valley now. You can pretty much go to a startup event every day
of the week now. The scene's still developing but the growth's been huge over
the last couple of years.

Another alternative maybe Cambridge, UK which is cheaper, has it's own startup
community, has a good talent pool because of the uni, and is only 45 minutes
away from London using the commuter train.

Elsewhere in Europe, Berlin and Stockholm both have startup communities. I'd
look at Talinn in Estonia if cost is a major issue, the government offers
grants for companies hiring developers which can be of significant help in
reducing labour costs.

~~~
swombat
_You can pretty much go to a startup event every day of the week now._

Even worse... there are overlaps between events now. You can go to _several_
startup events every day of the week some days...

Which is, actually, awesome. Yay.

~~~
ig1
Heh I never realized you were actually in London ! - did I ever bump into you
at one of those events without connecting you with your HN/irc nick ?

~~~
swombat
Possible... I go to DrinkTank on occasion, and some other events every once in
a while. Usually you can recognise me by the name tag that says "Daniel
Tenner" (or just check my photo on my blog...)

------
barnaby
Warsaw Poland!

I live in San Francisco, but I have to say: Warsaw is a super cosmopolitan
city (though half of that is Turks), still relatively affordable, very high
level of education, and it's the fastest growing economy in Europe.

Not to mention, the amount of foreign investment pouring into Warsaw is just
ridiculous.

~~~
lzw
Thanks, that's the kind of unexpected answer I was hoping for to some extent.

How's the cost of living? How much would a 2Br 2Ba apartment in good proximity
to mass transit go? Would it be super expensive to get broadband to said
apartment? Or would it be something like the US where you just ring up a
provider and they turn it on?

How much is english spoken there? I'll look into the residency and visa issues
and put it on my list though.

Thanks!

~~~
zalew
English is common among educated people of our generation, rarely spoken at
all by elders. In malls, business locations, or downtown pubs/clubs you won't
find any particular problems. In terms of public service there's a pressure in
this field due to hosting Euro2012, municipal police takes courses for that,
etc. There's lot for improvement but it's constantly getting better.

Depending of the available provider in the area 6-10Mbps is about
15-20Euro/month, if building is covered by a nice cable network for the same
20 you can as well have 20Mbps+. You sign 1-2yrs contracts. Public wireless
coverage is poor.

Real estate - rent? _take my prices only inicatively, I'm not into real
estate, they're from a quick search_ ~~80m2 in the city centre goes from
700Euro/mth in an average building to 1000-1500E for a more fancy location.
Places uptown with good transit (20-25min subway to centre) are a bit cheaper
and there's more to choose in quality, f.ex. a modern building or an old one
in a cosy quiet place. I'm talking about west riverside, eastside is much
cheaper, but offers less in terms of neighborhood quality or transit.

Public transport is 20Euro/mnth, gas is currently 1.1-1.2E/liter.

If you consider moving here and got any questions, u got my email in my
profile, feel free to drop a line.

------
dotcoma
IMHO the only place in Europe where there's been real innovation - and not
just copycats of American startups - is Scandinavia. Think Linux (Finland),
Opera (Norway), Skype, MySql, Spotify etc (Sweden).

~~~
agaton
Yes, come to Scandinavia! It's happening a lot here, there's some great
iniatives to become a real innovation hub for tech companies. And most
importantly - we have competence and willingness to make great inventions.
Stockholm is the natural hub, but both Helsinki, Copenhagen, Oslo & Malmö is
great. The South of Sweden have become a great place with many iniatives,
companies and events.

I know, we have higher taxes, but it's a lot cheaper than UK (for example).

~~~
dotcoma
Hi, are there any links you can share about the South of Sweden? Many thanks!
:)

------
patrickg
Move to a place you are familiar with. It would take too much time learning
the language, learning the culture, getting used to the local way of doing
things, building your network, having support from friends/family. I don't
think that the place where you found your startup is really that important.

It surely depends on the kind of startup you are building, but knowing the
local industry / companies (names, people, market shares) has helped me a lot
more then the actual (lack of) regulations/startup "feeling", cost of rent,
size of town.

~~~
lzw
I see your points, and they are valid in many cases. But if you're from
morocco or south africa or vanuatu or fiji, etc it may well be the case that
finding others to work for your company is near impossible or there are
external factors like lack of security or rule of law, that make relocating
reasonable.

Our business is a consumer internet play and so local industry isn't a big
help, but the language barrier might be an issue. We'll certainly be taking
these things into account.

------
pg
I would guess Vancouver or London.

~~~
muhfuhkuh
I second Vancouver (not only because my wife and I who are both in the US are
_desperately_ trying to get there ASAP).

* The tax breaks for software/web/tech-type startups is huge, not only the federal SR&ED tax for tech & biotech research startups, but KPMG also rated Vancouver #1 for "tax competitiveness" because of all the breaks the city (and province) provides to businesses, particularly startups.

* The mix of Hollywood, Video Games, and little tech businesses gives the tech atmosphere a really eclectic mix to draw strengths and pluck skilled people. The energy is "west coast" paced (meaning fairly swift but casual).

* Along with the "young" startuppy atmosphere and skillset is the commensurate payscale. It's cheaper than other cities and provinces to hire people, especially programmers. From everything I've read so far about the city, I think starting out is around 45k, then sr. positions is 60, and tops right out at around 70k for level IV guru coders. So, it's definitely not the Valley in terms of developer salaries.

* The climate is 7 months of never seeing the sun ever + 5 months of the most gorgeous weather you'll ever see. That gives you a space of 7 months to hunker down and _seriously_ work on your startup and hacking and 5 months to play as if you're a kid outside in the forest, mountains, AND ocean. It's a one-of-a-kind place for outdoor recreation, unmatchable really.

* The cultural mix is one I've never experienced before. The racial breakdown is ~50% Caucasian, 30% Chinese, then a 20% mix of mostly South Asian (Indian, Indonesian, Pakistani, etc.), Filipino, SE Asian (Vietnamese mostly), African, and Caribbean.

* You will _never_ blank on exotic cuisine restaurants, and most of them are inexpensive (well, aside from 12% "harmonized" sales tax that was recently implemented). In fact, Vancouver was named by Conde Nast Traveler magazine as having the greatest Chinese food in the world (yes, better than China and Hong Kong). And, it seems every immigrant to the city has opened up a restaurant to hawk their native cuisine.

~~~
neilk
> The climate is 7 months of never seeing the sun ever + 5 months of the most
> gorgeous weather you'll ever see.

Hey, I vividly remember going outside on the day after Christmas in a short-
sleeve shirt and sunglasses. Like many West Coast locations, the weather can
be very random. Although it's dominated by drizzle and mist most of the year.

> The energy is "west coast" paced (meaning fairly swift but casual).

Have to disagree with you there. If you're from the east coast or the Bay Area
you are going to feel like you're wading in molasses. People from Vancouver
usually don't have that sense of urgency, perhaps because the lifestyle is so
good. The startups I know that had real ass-kickers on staff tended to import
them. ;) I'm not saying you couldn't build a team that moved quickly, but
you'll have to spend time inculcating that as a value.

~~~
cwp
Upvoted for using "inculcate."

------
terpua
If you love the beach, super cheap to live, eat (fresh food) and really good
devs but hard to find, consider Manila.

I am from Silicon Valley but have been here for almost 7 years. Downsides:
traffic, small startup scene and hard to raise money. But there's a new local
fund focused on local tech going after the world. They just funded my startup.
I can make intros.

Subscribe to <http://thestartupdigest.com> Philippines to get a feel for the
local startup events.

------
sthomps
Vancouver - great startup scene and one of the nicest places to live in the
world. Plus it's a quick flight to SF, a 2 hour drive from Seattle (an amazing
startup area) and you are in Canada.

No-one in this thread has even talked about macroeconomic conditions. A lot of
the places mentioned (especially US) are going downhill in a hurry for most
professions. Yes, high-tech exists in a bubble that is excellent for startups,
but debt is debt. Just consider the future before you move to that place.

~~~
lzw
This is a good point. One of the things that is going to really be hurting
California, and probably Portland and Seattle over the next decade is the poor
way the state governments have managed their budgets. This means high taxes,
on top of the increasingly highly regulated and business hostile environments
there.

I can't speak to how Vancouver is in terms of taxes, as it is another west
coast city. But is the BC government in a fiscal emergency?

This is something to be concerned about for England, Germany and Spain as
well.

While I think I would love to live in Berlin and will consider it as a
location if the visa investigation looks promising, I probably wouldn't
domicile the business there due to the very real expectation that Germany will
be having a crisis like Greece in a few years.

~~~
startuprules
Vancouver had a big housing bubble, and now their sales have plummeted, so I
would imagine the state government might struggle a little bit.
[http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2010/07/vancouver...](http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2010/07/vancouver-
home-sales-drop-30-percent.html)

However, overall Canada is in good shape financially compared to the other
G20. Not alot of public/external debts. Here are the stats, as well as the
other countries mentioned in the thread

Canada - 833 Billions external, 75.% GDP public

US - 13 Trillions external, 52.9% GDP public (~70T owed in social
security/medicare uncounted)

England - 9 Trillions external, 60% GDP public

France - 5 Trillions external, 77% GDP public

Germany - 5 Trillions external, 72% GDP public

Israel - 84 Billions external, 78% GDP public

Netherlands - 3 Trillions external, 62% GDP public

Chile - 60 Billions external, 6.0%!! GDP public

Poland - 201 Billions external, 46.5% GDP public

Singapore - 19 Billions external, 113% GDP public

China - 340 Billions external, 16.5% GDP public

India - 223 Billions external, 58% GDP public

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_d...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt)

[https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/...](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html)

------
kajecounterhack
Dalian, China. Oil spill there recently but China has designated the entire
place a tech zone and is working to make it the "Bangalore of China." Super-
low living costs is a plus for entrepreneurs. Only main problem I guess would
be language barrier -- while many do know English, it isn't like India where
most people actually can speak it (with an accent but hey that's the least of
your worries when you're trying to find the bathroom).

~~~
lzw
Does this also mean that they have visa/residency programs for entrepreneurs?
Or is it just focused on chinese nationals?

One concern for china is the level of bureaucracy necessary. But in every
other regard China would certainly be a hoot- it is an amazing country.

------
bitboxer
Berlin, Germany. Tons of startups, low costs for renting.

~~~
jraines
Just curious -- why is Berlin rent cheap? Seems like capital cities (or large
cities in general), in wealthy Western countries, are generally really steep.

~~~
harscoat
Berlin population was 4,338,756 in May 1939 and now it's 3.4M. Another reason
is it's a subsidized new capital, lots of incentive for real estate
investments in hope that the business/employments take off.

~~~
patrickg
You have to take into account that in the earlier days more people lived in an
appartment then nowadays.

~~~
bitboxer
And you can't compare WW2 Numbers with today. A lot has happend since than.

~~~
ugh
Sure you can. Berlin had no chance to really grow all through the Cold War,
even worse, part of it was walled off and frontline at the same time. That’s
why Berlin’s population plummeted even when Germany’s population grew.

It’s not easy to rebound from that (after 45 years), even when you become
capital, pretty much all of Germany’s successful post-war industry established
itself in western West Germany. And not just industry, Post and Telekom are
both still in Bonn and will probably be forever.

Berlin is also in the middle of a huge sparsely populated area. If there are
no companies in Berlin that have jobs to offer not many people are going to
move there.

(By the way, looking at lists with the biggest German cities is a bit
misleading. Sure, Berlin handily comes out top, but look at this map: [+].
That’s not a zillion different cities like those silly natives with their
tradition would want to make you believe, that’s just one city with five
million people in it.)

[+] [http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Ruhr_area-
ma...](http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Ruhr_area-
map.png&filetimestamp=20100608150716)

~~~
barrkel
Similarly, London is a mass of connected towns with suburbs in between, and
perhaps two "cities" of Westminster and the City itself.

------
maxklein
Come to Shenzhen. It's beside Hong Kong but without the terrible rent prices.
See my latest blog entry, link in profile.

~~~
pw
Overall, what's the cost of living like in Shenzhen?

~~~
maxklein
Rent - 3000rmb, each meal 15-20rmb, coke 8rmb for the big bottle, taxi fare -
30rmb average distance, nice dinner at restaurant for 5 people - 300rmb.

------
xyz2010
Is getting a Canadian visa to start a startup actually that easy?

When I looked into it, it seemed that I had to have arranged employment, or a
net worth of CAD 800,000.

I'm a citizen of an EU country.

~~~
neilk
I've never heard of anyone getting a visa to start a startup.

Getting a visa to work for an existing Canadian company is generally not a
problem, and Canada has a points system for accelerated naturalization if you
decide you want to stay permanently.

------
Cmccann7
This is all based on hard data we have collected from my company
StartupDigest. direct link: www.thestartupdigest.com

The strongest 5 cities outside of the US for us (60% of our issues are outside
of the US) based on subscribe size, growth, and click through rate are in this
order:

1\. London 2\. Paris 3\. Tel Aviv 4\. Beijing 5\. Toronto

Granted I haven't lived in any of these cities long enough to know whats it
really like but these are the top cities from our data alone.

My advice would be to get in touch with with founders, hackers, and VC's in
these areas to get the real feel for what these cities are like. Then visit
your top choices, and cowork there for 2-4 weeks.

Hope this helps!

~~~
lzw
Thanks, that's good advice. We'll probably do tourist visas for 60-90 days
initially.

I appreciate seeing the results from your subscriber base. I also see the list
of cities for which you provide info as an interesting shortlist ot consider.
For instance, one city in France and Japan but three in Germany!

------
3pt14159
If any Canadians disagree with this post, just keep in mind these are my own
impressions based on incomplete data. If you have an opposite opinion I would
love to hear it to expand my knowledge.

Toronto, Waterloo, Vancouver, Ottawa, Montreal. All have their pros and cons.

Toronto: My town. People who say there isn't money here are full of shit. I
know someone who is raising a million without revenue or a finished product
(in a solid space, and the team is awesome, but still).

Benefits of Toronto: Lots of money, especially when you consider MaRS funding
and all the angel networks around. Solid Rails and JS scene. Solid mobile app
scene.

Problems with Toronto: Too much social media focus. Half the startups here are
twitter clones (sprouter) or twitter add-ons (crowdreel), groupon/other coupon
tools (can't remember the groupon clone, but there is: clip mobile for
location based coupons and pinpoint social (by orange rhino media) for coupons
to help track your facebook/social media campaigns), multiple "we make it easy
to find a place to rent" apps (zoocasa), there is a eventbrite clone
(guestlistapp (FD: my roommate is one of the founders)). I can only think of a
few startups that really _invented_ anything in Toronto (like FreshBooks, my
former employer, or Bumptop, I guess). There is also a lack of really hardcore
hackers. Maybe I'm just going to the wrong events, but when I was studying at
Waterloo, there were so many people soldering together circuit boards AND
writing their own operating systems for them. In Toronto I've only really
scene someone program together a computer driven laser cutter. Oh and the
banks eat up a good portion of really smart hackers with their 20 year old
data warehouses.

 _tl;dr:_ too much social media & finance, too little hard core hackers
outside of the mobile and webapp space.

Waterloo: I studied engineering at U of Waterloo. Some insanely smart people.
Smarter than you can imagine. If you hang out in the right places you'll find
guys that were patching the kernel at 14. Amazingly smart and connected profs
too, only too willing to help you hire alumni and coop students.

Waterloo pros: Extremely talented hackers. With two premier universities, as
well as a world class research center (perimeter institute) and a focus on
education the whole city feels smart. CHEAP rent. Extremely cheap. I knew a
guy that rented a room for $200 a month, utils included.

Waterloo cons: The public transit isn't the greatest. Doesn't really matter
because the town is small, but a pain to get groceries. Definitely a car town.
I've never really seen anyone get funding for anything, besides university
expansions. $50k here or there until they are good enough to make the trek to
Toronto (about 1.5 hour drive away). No where near the community of Toronto.
In Toronto I could find somewhere to go every single week. Rails night every
third monday, JQuery night once a month, Democamp, Podcamp, hacklabs, Open Web
standards night, Toronto Hacker News Night (by yours truly). There is nothing
like that in Waterloo.

Ottawa: My mom's side of the family is from there. I've spent many summers
hanging out near or in Ottawa.

Ottawa pros: It is fun. Clean. Well laid out. Enough hackers, no where near as
good as Toronto or Waterloo (or Vancouver for that matter), but damn are they
cheap. Most of the coders I know there make between $30k - $60k. Contrasted to
Toronto where a really, really good rails hacker can make about $130k and
where most fall in the $60k to $100k range.

Ottawa cons: Tons of political contracts and work. No real innovation. A
couple really good startups though, like Shopify.

Montreal: Some family lives in Montreal, but I don't know that much about it.
Been there many times, almost got engaged to a girl that is fairly influential
there, but she wasn't in the tech space.

Montreal pros: Money. Game dev community, so you get some really talented
coders.

Montreal cons: Everything feels run down. People can call it European, but
that is ONLY in the historical and art district. Everywhere else feels halfway
between Toronto and Detroit. Their highways are so bad (gigantic potholes) the
speedlimit has been lowered to 60km an hour, for what clearly should be a
100km/h road. Make sure you speak French (or at least TRY, they want to see
you try) if you want to go to certain areas, otherwise you just get bad
service from the hardcore separatists. Also, compared to Ontario drivers,
Montreal drivers are really mean.

Vancouver: Lived here for about a year and a half. Was too young to work at
the time so I can't comment on much besides the non-startup factors.

Vancouver pros: Extremely lax. Feels like Seattle, but prettier and with more
weed. (I list weed as a pro, despite the fact that I do not partake strickly
because to most people it would be). Very beautiful. Just amazing mountains
and valleys and rivers and fish and bears. Everything is nice about nature in
Canada is there.

Vancouver cons: Expensive. Try buying a livable place there. Almost NY prices,
without the NY salaries to compensate. Highly regulated government, Ontario is
much more business friendly.

Overall I recommend Toronto if you are a web startup or Waterloo if you are in
a different startup space. You say you want low costs? Go to Waterloo and if
you need to get capital you can always drive to Toronto.

~~~
lzw
Thank you for the very extensive writeup! I've added Ottawa and Waterloo to
the shortlist. I had never even heard of Waterloo before. I'm well familiar
with Vancouver and agree with everything you say about it.

Thinking about Vancouver makes me question whether conserving burn rate and
finding a cheaper city is a tradeoff I shouldn't make, as it would exclude
cities like Vancouver which has probably everything one could ask for in a
startup hub.

~~~
tpz
Don't write Vancouver off quite yet. There's Vancouver and then there's
Vancouver. Vancouver proper can be expensive or not so expensive, and then
there are the numerous very closely-located suburbs which are less expensive
and situated well enough that you can take advantage of everything the
Vancouver area has to offer. Heck, in many cases the things Vancouver is known
to offer are not in Vancouver itself but rather in those very suburbs.

This area certainly isn't the least expensive in which to live, but it isn't
the most either. I can only speak for myself but I find that the view that it
is too expensive has been largely blown out of proportion, especially given
the benefits the area provides.

For someone bootstrapping it does depend largely on your budget and support
system, so if you have any ballpark budget numbers it would be relatively easy
to give you an idea of what the Vancouver area would be like on that budget.

------
antileet
I'm going to go ahead and recommend Bangalore (Disclaimer - I live here right
now). While popular belief and stereotypes might have you believe that the
city only has Call Centers and Outsourcing companies - it has a pretty bright
startup community, which I'm only beginning to discover.

While I was born and brought up in Bangalore, I moved away for five years to
College. I decided to start up after and moved back here, only to discover a
very vibrant culture around technical startups. Due to the very strong
proliferation of the internet, a lot of people have been picking up some
pretty good technology and development stacks, and are not afraid to network
and interact.

 _Language:_

Most of the population you run into have a basic working knowledge of English,
and as far as communicating with potential employees goes, it's not going to
be a problem. You're going to have to put up with the funny accent though :)

 _Government/External support:_

While there aren't fast-track routes to quickly get started, and there'll be a
bit of paperwork involved, for which you'll need to get a local's help (heck,
even _I_ am finding it a little hard). But as for bootstrapping and for
staying in stealth mode, there's no place like it.

 _Cost:_

It's incredibly cheap here. Maybe not China-cheap, but cheap. I am staying
with some friends in a very large luxury apartment in the center of this very
large city, and the overall cost is near 480 USD a month(for 5 people).
Programmers are cheap and widely available. The Experienced ones aren't as
economic, but pack more bang for their buck. If you're willing to be a little
flexible, it's surprisingly comfortable to bootstrap on <$400 a month.

 _Networking:_

There are meetups and networking sessions almost every weekend [ for example -
<http://www.meetup.com/Mashable/16063/?a=bn5_l1> which is tomorrow). Within a
month, I'm starting to meet familiar faces, and a lot of people are looking
for co-founders or someone with a good idea.

I recently attended the Yahoo Open Hack Day, which attracted over 500 hackers
- and was amazed at the number of people who worked nearly 40 hours nonstop to
come up with some very impressive hacks.

Another great example is "Startup Saturday" - a monthly networking session
held by Headstart - a company to help people startup. I went to the June 12th
Meet:

<http://startupsaturday.headstart.in/event.php?eid=43>

And found nearly 180 people cramped into a little auditorium. Plenty of people
from abroad, and lots of people moonlighting - trying to make connections.

 _Examples of startups:_

Just off the top of my head. There are tons more but these are from people I
know personally.

<http://www.capillary.co.in/capillary/>

<http://c42.in/>

<http://www.notionink.in/>

~~~
plinkplonk
As someone who has lived in Bangalore for the last decade (and also in the USA
for a while) and knows the local tech scene pretty well, I find the idea of
putting Bangalore up as a candidate for "Best startup city outside the USA"
amusing. There are a _lot_ of people _talking_ about startups, reading and
quoting PG's essays, attending meetups and "networking events" and so on - but
not too many companies with world beating tech or validated and _scalable_
business models - which is what one would expect from a "best startup city
outside the US". (Notion Ink is something of an exception in that they are at
least trying to build something world class, but the jury is still out on
their eventual success, but I thought they were based in Hyderabad not
Bangalore. I could be wrong).

Sure, the programmers are cheaper than in the USA (I could say the same thing
about say Rio De Janeiro or Beijing). There are hundreds of thousands of
programmers in Bangalore but the majority are numbingly incompetent and work
for body shoppers of various kinds. The good ones are rare and expensive and
already have very well paying jobs. Good luck persuading them to work on your
unfunded startup ;-) Nutshell: The entrepreneurial _and_ technically competent
hacker is very much a rarity in Indian society.

If you don't _already_ know the devs you are going to work with in your
startup _before_ you come here I for one would _not_ recomend that you try to
build a company here and hope to hire good people after you land.

Also, there are no government incentives or tax breaks for startups (vs yet
another bodyshop/outsourcing centre/ call centre).

Minor factual error: C42 (quoted in the post above) for example is a Rails
consultancy (Yes I know the people who work there too. Ex ThoughtWorkers
mostly). They might be a software startup (as the term is understood on HN)
some day, but they are not one today.

There aren't any universities doing pioneering/cutting edge research (no not
even the IISc, their _research_ quality is at best mediocre) which might form
the basis of a successful startup.

"There are tons more" (startups)

No there aren't. At least not as startups are understood on HN. There are a
_few_ startups and a lot of frothy talk. The number of people attending
"startups meets" are not a good metric for "best city for startups outside the
USA". _Successful_ startups that have changed the world/been acquired for
large sums of money, extensive angel funding and VC funding networks, top
class universities doing cutting edge research etc, are. Bangalore lacks most
of these or have only rudimentary stubs of all the above.

That said, the parent post makes some good points. Bangalore _is_ cheaper than
the USA (hardly surprising) and it has the _potential_ for some good startups
to emerge. That potential is, as of today, deeply buried. Vancouver or London
or Tel Aviv or even Vienna blows Bangalore out of the water as a "city for
startups". Things _are_ changing in Bangalore but (a) _very slowly_ and(b)
under the radar of such things as "startup meetups"

My 2 cents. I write this to add a bit of counterpoint to the rosy picture
presented above.

YMMV. As always Caveat Emptor.

EDIT: A blog entry written by one of the founders of Riya.com when he wound up
his Bangalore operations -
[http://munjal.typepad.com/recognizing_deven/2007/04/episode_...](http://munjal.typepad.com/recognizing_deven/2007/04/episode_26_indi.html)
.

I am not saying his observations are valid. I think Munjal did everything
wrong about trying to operate in Bangalore, ("We tend to _only_ hire folks
from IIT or other top schools." is almost guaranteed to ensure that you end up
with a mediocre dev team for e.g.) but that is a post for another day.

~~~
antileet
OP was inquiring about opportunities in Asian cities, so I just pitched the
positive sides. Sure there are tons of negative sides (some of which I have to
deal with as well) and isn't exceptionally friendly to non-locals. But if
you're looking for requirements as "cheap place where you can find some degree
of labor", I think Bangalore can match up to some degree, atleast.

Still, if you can infer from my post, I'm still fresh out of college (read:
naive and somewhat ignorant), and you should really do your homework. While
there's much more talk than work (that's a fundamental Indian trait, almost),
there is some minor degree of work happening. Unfortunately the people who are
doing some serious, innovative work (like our small team) are exceptionally
quiet.

I got the chance to watch Bala Manian [
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bala_S._Manian> ] speak, and he's currently on
his latest venture here as well. It's not _impossible_ to make things work
here, but it's certainly not easy. The frank opinion is the ends nowhere near
justify the means unless you have a co founder who is Indian, or you're on a
near zero budget (I met an American founder who travels with a Mac Mini and a
keyboard in a suitcase).

tl;dr - Don't book your tickets yet, but it never hurts to keep your options
open.

------
epynonymous
shame, no mention of china, at least from what i scrolled through. china has a
relatively low cost of living (food, housing, etc) and excellent
infrastructure in 2nd tier+ cities. the talent pool can be somewhat mixed, i
don't think you'll find very many rails or django developers, but each year
there are over half a million university graduates in engineering/computer
science.

in terms of living here, english doesn't go very far so if you've got any
chinese speaking ability, this would be a great place for you to start
something.

i'd recommend setting up LLC and so forth back at your home country and just
running the show remotely.

but like the poster says, the environment is probably the single most
important aspect, for that i would say that nobody beats the valley.

if language is an issue, hong kong/singapore are options, though they're too
costly, but the infrastructure is first rate.

i hear in china that you can get special funding from the government to open
offices here where the benefit for china is that it produces more jobs for the
high tech industry. sometimes free rent + utilities. anyway, some things to
think about, i know when i worked with dextrys, they mentioned that to me, i'm
not sure how they arranged this though.

------
laowai
Beijing by a country mile. The seat of gov't is here, top universities are all
here, dozens of NASDAQ-listed companies which were once startups themselves
are here, terrific world-class infrastructure with relatively low-cots are to
be found here in the Northern Capital and - most importantly - on top of that
foundation is found the same kind of virtuous cycle found in Silicon Valley
and Boston's Rt. 128. That virtuous, self-perpetuating cycle is built around
industry insiders peeling off of existing companies and starting out on their
own with the support of a burgeoning angel funding ecosystem along with scores
of world-class int'l and local VC firms.

On top of that multi-layer cake add a nice coat of all-natural entrepreneurial
frosting and Beijing is simply unstoppable as a startup hub.

Up to now the vast majority of the startup effort has been spent on addressing
the domestic market spawning literally dozens of publicly listed companies in
the internet and wireless space (are there more than 4 or 5 countries in the
world that have dozens of listed companies in the consumer internet/wireless
space?). In fact, the 3rd largest internet company in the world, after Google
and Amazon is China's Tencent/QQ. Up to now, China's market has grown from
basically zero in 1995 to by far the largest wireless subscriber base in the
world and the largest internet subscriber base in the world.

What's next? Chinese companies will start to aggressively expand via
acquisition and geographical expansion and it's already happening. All those
market opportunities and forces are combining to make China, and Beijing
specifically, a powerhouse in creating new startups and innovative business
models. The west likes to think that China is neither creative or innovative,
but within a decade it will be clear that that's just not true.

------
noss
For those of you that have been through startups that involved investors. How
important was the cost of living, office rent space? How does that importance
compare to how easy it is to hire the right people? I can see how "lifestyle
startups" prefer cheap places.

PS. I visited Vienna this summer and really liked it. A one-hour train trip to
the east and you're in Bratislava (i.e. daily commute possible) which also was
a nice city. Prague, Venice, Budapest, all reachable in over-night train trips
or less with ÖBB (austrian railroads). The whole area is interesting.

Myself I'm from Stockholm and I doubt we have anything else to appeal startups
with than well educated people and a beautiful place to live.

------
j053003
Surprised to see no mentions of Barcelona. I was under the impression that it
was one of Europe's startup/tech centers.

------
dedalus
Seoul, Korea. I know I am in a minority when suggesting this

Some Amazon competitors like NexR <http://nexr.co.kr/> are coming out of here

~~~
tomh-
Can you tell a bit more about the startup scene in Seoul? In my experience
Korean web companies are very focused on the local market or they make
computer games (but don't hire international people).

~~~
dedalus
You are right. Its highly local but the scene is changing slowly as the local
market is fairly saturated.

------
SwissHacker
It seems there are many other who are looking for a good new location. Maybe
we should go together, anyone interested in cooperation?

~~~
woid
I'm interested in relocation & cooperation. I'm a contractor working for SF-
based startup while bootstrapping my own company. My problem: time-zone shift
(10hrs). I like to get somewhere non-us and time-aligned with SF. Panama,
Chille and Canada sounds good in this respect. Vibrant startup community and
low cost of living is a plus. I don't necessary need to hire locals, because I
work mostly over the Skype anyway.

~~~
lzw
I think Panama City and Panama in general is the city of the future in this
hemisphere. It is strategic to the chinese who are modernizing the canal, and
the canal provides funding for the government. They are getting the best and
the brightest as they seek to escape Venezuela and Chavez. They had a housing
boom and bust, but Panama City is likely to replace Miami as the center of
Latino commerce.

Costa Rica is right next door. They are very laid back. Both countries have 90
day tourist visas. So you can live in one full time by taking a weekend
vacation to the other every 89 days and getting your passport stamped.

------
wlievens
If you've got anything to do with hardware, probably Cambridge (UK).

------
fgf
I'm interested in Chinese, Malaysian and the Philippine cities, anyone
familiar with a startup scene in these countries?

~~~
terpua
I'm in Manila and running my startup here. Email me.

~~~
wyclif
I'm interested in the Philippines. Is there a startup culture in Manila or
Cebu, and what does that look like?

~~~
voidnothings
The startup scene in the Philippines is concentrated on Manila. Friendster,
Insync, ProudCloud seems to lead the pack. I suggest you mail @terpua since he
can introduce to the details.

------
amonter5
IRELAND, loads of tech companies have set up in Dublin, and also with the
recession Ireland has become cheaper.

I live in Galway is an amazing city loads of creatives around and a HUGE
hackerspace and many festivals all year round.

Irish are cool and laid back, anglo-celtic culture and everybody loves the
irish around the world.

------
iuguy
We're based in Reading, Berkshire, UK. On the one hand London is great, really
great for certain things. It is up there with NYC. On the other hand it's easy
to end up paying a massive premium. Reading and the surrounding area (known as
Thames Silicon Valley) is a tech incubator. You've got Oxford Uni to the
north, Reading Uni in town and Holloway to the East, all good for tech grads.
There's cheap office space going all the way up the M4 and you're 20 minutes
from Paddington.

Is it the best outside the US? Possibly not, Cambridge might be better, but
you get all the advantages of London and Oxford without the failings.

------
paolomaffei
Not Milan and definitely not Italy.

------
amsellem
Israel, The Start-up Nation <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQliG9Wsdo>
<http://www.startupnationbook.com/> [http://www.amazon.com/Start-up-Nation-
Israels-Economic-Mirac...](http://www.amazon.com/Start-up-Nation-Israels-
Economic-Miracle/dp/044654146X)

------
sabj
Just wanted to say this is a very interesting and helpful post (+comments) - I
don't have any experience working in cities outside the US, though some travel
/ extended study - but it's very interesting to see so many perspectives.
Clearly the fact that there is so much disagreement points to the fact that
you can find good success in many different places!

------
mvalente
Lisboa, Portugal, Europe

<http://seedcapital.pt/2009/11/18/lisbon-by-the-sea/>

\-- MV

~~~
mvalente
Some important projects have decided to be located in Portugal <http://living-
planit.com/aboutus.htm>

\-- MV

~~~
lzw
Interesting, had not considered lisbon. Amazing broadband connectivity.

Any thoughts on what a 2BR 2BA apartment would go for?

~~~
mvalente
Between 500€ and 1000€

\-- MV

------
point2
@lzw This is very interesting, please keep us informed. Can you post your
shortlist / decision when you have made it? Thanks.

------
clb22
Chilean Startup Scene

On Chile, since 2007, the startup scene has been initiated at Santiago with
two most highlighted products developed by Chileans, those are Needish.com &
Bligoo.com.

Needish is like Redbeacon.com while Bligoo is like Blogspot.com for chileans.
I have to say that Needish launched the service before Redbeacon, so Cheers
for the chileans.

On 2008, I went at differents events, like www.FirstTuesday.cl and
www.Webprendedor.com, doing networking with local people (investors &
developers) and it was great to feel that finally the chileans are currently
working developing startups. On these conferences, there were people like:

\- Pedro Pablo Fuentes Schuster who is a developer, and who's the Director of
the website <http://www.chileayuda.com> specially developed to help people
find information after the last Feb 27th Earthquake. He also organized the
last RHoK [1] event at UChile. He haves two web development companies:
<http://diDigital.cl> and <http://OXUS.cl> with a good portfolio on both
companies.

\- Daniel Undurraga <http://twitter.com/eldani> Is the founder of Needish,
what's Needish? Please read this article:
<http://blog.needish.com/content/view/4/About.html> Also this year, Daniel
with the team behind Needish, launched <http://clandescuento.com> on March and
on June, Groupon acquired Clandescuento [2]

\- Cristián Sepulveda <http://twitter.com/crsepulv> is the founder of
<http://Ubiqq.com> (real time conferences)

\- Paolo Colonello <http://twitter.com/colonnello> is the founder of
<http://Bligoo.com>

\- Tomás Pollak <http://www.bootlog.org> <http://twitter.com/tomaspollak> One
of his projects is Prey Project, a lightweight application that will help you
track and find your laptop if it ever gets stolen <http://preyproject.com/>
[3]

\- Leo Prieto <http://leoprieto.com/> <http://twitter.com/leoprieto> He's the
founder of Fayerwayer ( <http://www.fayerwayer.com> ), the most visited blog
about technology on Latin America.

\- Juan Francisco Diez <http://twitter.com/jf10> He's the founder of Chile
Hardware <http://www.chw.net> , the same thing that Fayerwayer, but on
Hardware things..

* Leo Prieto and Juan Francisco Diez founded BetaZeta.com, a network of Blogs.

\- Nicolás Orellana is the guy behind Webprendedor or the Chilean Startups
Conference. This year is going to be held on November 19th & 20th See
<http://www.webprendedor.com/conferencia-2010/>

These guys didn't went to Webprendedor, but they are also involved on the
startup environment:

\- Javier Salcedo <http://twitter.com/JavierSplitcast> He's on the team of
Splitcast.net, their product is a new P2P Multicast Streaming technology,
which reduces the bandwith consumption on 70% and can increase the people
already connected up to 70 times. <http://www.twitter.com/SplitCast>

\- Agustin Feuerhake <http://twitter.com/AgustinF> He's the founder of
Voxound.com, this web application is like a music recommendation system. I
didn't tested yet.

\- Esteban Sosnik. He's the founder of Atakama Labs
<http://www.atakamalabs.com/> (gaming industry). Check his profile on Linkedin
[http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=369165](http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=369165)

On 2009, Chris Anderson (from Wired Magazine) and Sarah Lacy (from Techcrunch)
came to Chile to an event organized by Wenceslao Casares [4] and Tiburcio de
la Carcova [5], called Traweln [6].

* Traweln is an informal gathering of entrepreneurs, executives and investors that work with technology, design and entertainment companies in Latin America. This year Traweln will be hosted in Silicon Valley at 455 Old la Honda Rd, Woodside, CA. More information at <http://traweln.org/>

On 2010, If you are interested to launch your business on Chile, you should
read:

\- Chilean Government to attract entrepreneurs
<http://www.corfo.cl/startupchile/> <http://startupchile.org/>

\- Top Reasons to Invest in Chile in 2010 <http://www.investchile.com/>

\- VISA Stuff <http://www.extranjeria.gov.cl/ingles/>

\- Startupweekend: For first time, Startupweekend.org is hosting an event on
Santiago, Chile on December 10, 11 & 12, 2010. Check
<http://santiago.startupweekend.org/>

Reviews of Chile on the Startup Scene: \-
[http://www.inc.com/articles/2010/05/chile-next-silicon-
valle...](http://www.inc.com/articles/2010/05/chile-next-silicon-valley.html)
\- [http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/10/chile-wants-your-
poor-y...](http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/10/chile-wants-your-poor-your-
huddled-masses-your-tech-entrepreneurs/) \-
[http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/oct2009/tc200...](http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/oct2009/tc20091020_195682.htm)

Hope this helps to get an idea of what is the startup scene on Santiago,
Chile.

For any question, don't hesitate to contact me. I'm @cleiva
<http://twitter.com/cleiva>

[1] <http://www.rhok.org/> [2] [http://techcrunch.com/2010/06/24/groupon-
clandescuento-clube...](http://techcrunch.com/2010/06/24/groupon-
clandescuento-clubeurbano/) [3] [http://lifehacker.com/5273620/prey-phones-
home-to-help-you-r...](http://lifehacker.com/5273620/prey-phones-home-to-help-
you-recover-your-stolen-laptop) [4] Founder and co-CEO of Bling Nation
<http://twitter.com/wences> [5] He founded <http://www.atakamalabs.com/> with
Esteban Sosnik <http://twitter.com/tiburcio> [6] Flickr Gallery:
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/42080094@N03/>

~~~
MSWizard
Thank you for the very extensive response! Chile sounds really interesting. I
have some additional questions:

What about immigration: How hard is it for a foreigner to move there / get
long term visa ?

Are there many good developers and what's the average salary of a developer ?

Are there other foreigner software startups / companys or immigrants ?

What about the government / bureaucracy: How hard is it to hire developers for
a foreign company ?

What about the English skills ? Of course, if we come to Chile we have to
learn Spanish, but our software is written for English-speaking (and German-
speaking) customers

Last question: What is the cost of living like there and where's the best
place to live?

~~~
clb22
About life in Chile, visa processes, doing business in Chile, and the general
cost of living.. well, you can find information here:
<http://startupchile.wordpress.com/destination-chile/>

In terms of salaries for a developer with at least 2 years of experience:

Program Analyst: $1210/mo Informations: $1450/mo Civil Engineer, Information:
$1700/mo Programming: $1100/mo Design and Industrial Production: $700/mo

Are there other foreigner software startups / companys or immigrants ?

There are companies such as Wanako Games (NYC), Bio Architecture Lab
(Berkeley), Bling Nation (Palo Alto), Atakama Labs (SF), Entegris (Nasdaq:
ENTG), InquiroGroup (Palo Alto) and Zappedy (SF). More information on
[http://supercoolschool.typepad.com/startupschool/2010/08/sta...](http://supercoolschool.typepad.com/startupschool/2010/08/startup-
chile-helping-founders-to-touch-ground-in-south-america.html)

What about the English skills ? I think you will be fine here, there is no
deal if your software is written in a different language. (I'm not sure if I
understand your point with the english skills.. you're worried because you
have to learn spanish?)

Hope it helps, any doubt, don't hesitate to ask.

~~~
MSWizard
Thanks a lot for this detailed answer and the additional links. Very
interesting arguments for Chile! We will review this information (we plan to
relocate our startup next year) and also follow you on twitter.

Again: Thanks for your help!

------
scorpion032
Bangalore.

Cheap, when you look from the dollar perspective. Lot of startups, lot of
socializing, lot of expertise.

------
PTheR
@lzw where do you live an what kind of software do you develop? We are also a
small startup (developing enterprise/e-commerce software in switzerland) who
is looking for a good location where we can find an active startup scene and
hire developers.

------
niico
Ever thought of Brazil? Cheap as hell, beautiful and happy people, gorgeous
beaches, huge huge market, very cheap internet access. I recommend somewhere
like Bahia or Florianopolis.

------
dillydally
In the US the answer is NYC.

Outside the US the answer is London. Lots of startups in Soho. You also have
Seedcamp and active a-list investors like Index (esp. Danny Rimer) and the
Skype guys.

------
tjmc
Perth, Australia if your startup involves digging stuff out of the ground and
selling it to China. Otherwise not. We do have nice beaches though.

------
PTheR
What about South America -> Chile, Argentina, Brazil? Does someone has
experience / anyone familiar with a startup scene in these countries?

~~~
lzw
I bet Santiago Chile, Buenos Ares Argentina, and Panama City, Panama are
probably the better cities. Maybe there's a good city in Brazil. Not sure how
they compare to europe, canada, etc, but I would be surprised if there weren't
tech startups in all these cities. But I'm guessing they are a different
culture and that not as many of the people on hacker news are located in
central or south america.

I would love to hear from someone who is who can give their experiences.

I really don't care if there's no VC or angels there, but if there's good
broadband, low cost of living, and a couple thousand people who know python in
the city then that might be good enough.

~~~
zppx
I'm Brazilian, and I was born and live in São Paulo, I have visited Brazil
(where I live), Argentina and Chile, so I think I can give an opinion.

Well, São Paulo (the Brazilian state) is a good place to start a company, it
does have a large talent pool if you're willing to pay for the best (there are
a lot of mediocre people working here), the majority of the best universities
in the country are in the state, and it does have a decent infrastructure,
though the government regulations are a mess for new business and not much
people understands English as they should, São Paulo (the city) is expensive
to live compared to other tech centres in the State (São Carlos and Campinas).

There are also other Brazilian states with a vibrant tech sector, the three
Southern states, Rio de Janeiro and Pernambuco, but São Paulo alone probably
have much more tech companies than they all combined.

Buenos Aires is a better city than São Paulo for me, the infrastructure is
relatively better, but I think that the Argentinian State is even worse to
business than the Brazilian, some of the same problems that you find in Brazil
you'll also face in Argentina.

Santiago is like Buenos Aires and São Paulo, although a bit smaller, the
Chilean State is much more business friendly than other South American
governments and the living is cheaper than São Paulo or Buenos Aires, but I do
not know much about the working conditions for tech companies there. But I do
know that it's easier to get foreigners to work in Chile than in other South
American countries, and their taxes are much smaller compared to Brazil or
Argentina.

EDIT: In addition, there's a growing start up scene in São Paulo and Buenos
Aires, once again I'm not sure about Santiago, it does not have a tech sector
so developed like São Paulo or Buenos Aires, but I think the government there
is probably trying to change that.

~~~
SwissHacker
very interesting, indeed. Is there a startup scene in Buenos Aires? Can they
speak english?

~~~
zppx
As far as I know the scene is becoming stronger, although the target for the
majority of new business is the Argentinian market and the majority do not
have plans of international expansion initialy, this is slowly changing. I'm
not sure about the language but I suspect that it falls in the same situation
of São Paulo.

EDIT: This article introduces something more useful about Argentina than I'm
able to provide:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/26/business/worldbusiness/26p...](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/26/business/worldbusiness/26peso.html)

~~~
PTheR
cool, thanks

------
proVC
Last suggestion (and I'm not kidding): What about Cuba (<http://bit.ly/a9qVqN>
) OR Suriname ?

~~~
PTheR
Cuba maybe in 10 years, Suriname is beautiful country, but there are no
programers

------
applesoft
Auckland, NZ ( <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland,_NZ> )

~~~
lzw
I've spent time in New Zealand and quite like the country. Just looked at the
immigration policies again and they seem pretty reasonable.

How have the politics of New Zealand at the national level changed over the
last decade? More or less business friendly?

At the time of my visit it seemed taxes were high but government was less
corrupt than in most countries.

~~~
chrismsnz
We have a "conservative" government since 2008. Before that we were lead by a
left-wing, worker friendly (with a little neoliberalisim thrown in) Labour
government for 9 years.

Despite that, we fairly consistently came out tops as a great place for small
businesses
([http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fsb/fsb_archive/2007/06/01/10...](http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fsb/fsb_archive/2007/06/01/100049637/index.htm)).

And also, our tax rates may seem high but overall taxation is quite low,
especially compared to other countries
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Income_Taxes_By_Country.sv...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg)).
Note that our corperate tax rate has dropped quite a bit since 2005.

------
known
I wouldn't recommend India to foreigners. You'll be exploited. Hire some good
local managers, if you really prefer India.

------
theRealP
@lzw where are you from? Can you give us more information about you company?
This is the most interesting thread ever!

~~~
lzw
Deliberately didn't mention where we were from because didn't want to debate
the merits of that location, so much as hear people's thoughts about other
locations.

Dont' really want to talk about the company either because we're still in what
I consider the early stages, and things might change.

Sorry to be mysterious. I really should make a blog and start writing
posts.... will definitely have to do that as we travel.

I'm sure we'll be visiting a number of the places mentioned in this thread
over the next year.

~~~
theRealP
ok, I understand, but please please please keep us informed. It would be great
to read you blog. Looking forward to hearing from you. thanks for this thread.

------
thenduks
Toronto does have a pretty active start-up community. You'd probably want to
keep close to downtown.

------
CaanaCast
Toronto - silicon valley north / Markham (high tech capital!)

------
alifaziz
Consider,

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Cyberjaya, Malaysia.

Top developers are many there.

~~~
lzw
What would a nice 2BR 2BA apartment go for in downtown Kuala Lumpur? Or if
expensive there, how about outskirts near public transportation?

It is hard to get a read on Cyberjaya... but it seems to be a small
development focused on multinationals and not really set up for startups.
Maybe I'm wrong?

~~~
mattm
I would be interested in this question as well. I got contacted last week by a
company in Cyberjaya and while I didn't get to proceed with their interview,
it does sound like a cool area. I have studied some Mandarin and am
considering moving to a place where I could speak Mandarin daily.

I have lived in China and probably would not go back. Taiwan is another option
I am considering but I imagine KL to be cheaper and more fun.

------
PTheR
What about Russia?

~~~
alavrik
Here's a good article and the HN discussion about Russia.
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1409194>

Basically, you would probably want to stay away from it. You can find decent
engineers there but everything else is terrible for business: corruption,
taxes, banks, cost of living, visas, etc.

~~~
PTheR
Thanks for your tip, I will read it. I've asked because I recently found a
popular .Net webstore software called nopCommerce (I think it's even the most
popular open source solution for .Net) from a startup located near Moscow.

------
dmillar
Vancouver, Ottawa, Shanghai

~~~
techietim
Any notable startups from those cities that you can name?

~~~
lem72
I live in Shanghai right now and the successful startups that are BASED here
are all chinese clones of popular US companies, like Youku.com(you tube),
baidu.com (google), taobao.com(Ebay/amazon), QQ (social networking) etc. Some
cool startups who work here but have offices in other countries are
Indochino.com (Custom Made high quality mens wear), Chinese learning
companies, etc.

There is also a pretty decent tech scene here with some good meetups (we just
had a barcamp, ruby conf and Geeks on a Plane)

Living is inexpensive, you could live for about 250-500 USD fairly easily if
you enjoy the local food and drink the $.5 Tsingtao beer.

The issue with Shanghai is it seems pretty tough to bring money in and out if
you are focusing on Chinese Customers though and can be expensive to get work
visas, offices (the gov makes foreigners get expensive offices), good workers.
The labour can be cheap, but like everywhere you get what you pay for.

I am moving back to Vancouver, BC next month where there is also an epic
startup culture growing, even with some past hiccups. But if it wasn't for the
company I am with right now, I would be staying here and may still come back
to start something in the next few months. I do recommend Shanghai for a good
startup city for sure.

~~~
olalonde
QQ (Tencent) headquarters are actually in Shenzhen.

------
oqpied
Try Tel Aviv - Israel!

------
iampims
London, UK.

Hong Kong, China

Sydney, Australia

~~~
mahmud
I have lived in all three.

London, yes; not exactly a cheap place to live but there is a huge local
market you can tap into, immediately.

Hong Kong; hard if you're not a native. The place is geared towards old
business. The expats are mostly either in finance, import export, or doing
teaching. Really hectic and you can't put your guards down (i.e. you can't
just leave the house in shorts and sandals to sit at an outdoor cafe.)

Sydney. Great place. But, fuck, it's expensive. My weekly "man money", just
for drinks, lunch meetings and coffee, was $500. Rent is cheaper in the
Western Suburbs, and still cheaper in far dodgy places like Paramatta, but
IME, if you go anywhere west of Central you're entering a technological
wasteland (except maybe for Newtown.)

~~~
AN447
London only if you have alot of capital behind you. Everything here is
expensive so you better have a nice VC behind you. Finding a cheap place to
stay in the city - Good luck mate.

~~~
ndimopoulos
You could find a 'cheap' place but it will have to be in Zone 6 of the
Underground which is quite a few miles away from the center of London.
Additionally if you want to have decent offices you will pay for it - dearly

------
lzw
FOLLOWUP:

Thanks for all the responses. A couple clarifying points:

\--- Probably the biggest thing we're looking for is a pro-business, pro-
immigrant, pro-technology set of government policies. We want to live in this
location for several years and be able to work without the government thinking
that we're some sort of threat by doing so (the position the US takes, for
instance.)

\--- We're also looking for good infrastructure. This doesn't mean we'd rule
out a hut on a beach somewhere. A latrine toilet would be ok if we had good
broadband.

\--- I did just ask for "Startup culture" but by that I meant that there were
people who were entrepreneurial in the area, and _maybe_ there are enough
people who are programmers to have a monthly developers meeting in an area of
interest to us. The whole startup culture thing is a bonus, and my asking the
question was to get a read on other parts of the world-- but startup culture
isn't the number one criteria for our choice, but it will help us narrow down
if we have multiple good candidates.

\--- We're not likely to need Venture Capital. We've got the equivalent of an
angel round in the bank already. So access to capital is not that important.
This is a business that will self fund and if we need capital to accelerate
growth, that's not so hard to raise anywhere when you're already profitable.

\-- In looking at these answers and looking at all of the visa requirements,
I'm struck by the number of countries that would be happy to have us stay
there for 90 days but then would put us thru the ringer if we wanted to stay
there 6 months or longer.

I wonder if there is any country that values bringing in great minds who want
to build something.

~~~
startuprules
Using countries submitted in this discussion:

Top penetration of broadband: 1\. Netherlands 2\. Norway 3\. Germany 4\. Hong
Kong 5\. Canada 6\. Israel 7\. UK
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_broadband_Internet_users)

Best countries for small business based on regulatory climate 1\. Singapore
2\. Hong Kong 3\. UK 4\. Canada 5\. Norway
[http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/10/smallbusiness/best_countries...](http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/10/smallbusiness/best_countries_for_small_biz.smb/)

Lowest corporate tax rates 1\. Hong Kong 2\. Russia 3\. Chile 4\. Singapore
5\. Poland <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world>

Countries with the least debt (asked by the OP below) 1\. Singapore 2\. Chile
3\. Poland 4\. India 5\. China

Top quality programmers (oDesk) 1\. Hong Kong 2\. Israel 3\. Finland 4\.
Poland 5\. France 6\. Chile
[http://www.odesk.com/community/oconomy/outsourcing_countries...](http://www.odesk.com/community/oconomy/outsourcing_countries_by_quality)

~~~
lzw
Thanks for that. Seems Hong Kong is doing well on those lists, with Singapore
close behind and Chile making a (possibly) surprise appearance.

I appreciate the research. I'm still working my way thru the response to the
original question.

~~~
startuprules
No problem. I am looking to establish a foreign beachhead myself. If you ever
pick one, and go through with your decision, I hope you would post your
experience here.

EDIT: I found a better link here for ease of business:
<http://www.doingbusiness.org/economyrankings/>

as well as tax rates:
[http://www.doingbusiness.org/ExploreTopics/PayingTaxes/Detai...](http://www.doingbusiness.org/ExploreTopics/PayingTaxes/Details.aspx?economyid=43)

------
c00p3r
Why not just use mobile internet and banking? It is possible to contribute to
any projects from almost every place in the world.

For example, this comment was written from Leh, Ladakh (3,500m, the two roads
open only for 5 month per year. Both roads have parts that located above
5000m.) ^_^

There are good old saying - If you really want something you will find a
solution, if you don't you will find an excuse. ^_^

~~~
lzw
Been doing that already for 2.5 years now. Figured there would be some places
we hadn't thought of as tech centers and might be one of them is worth the
immigration hassles to stick around for a couple years. Turns out there are
several good suggestions in this thread that we'd hadn't heard about.

------
alnayyir
Singapore far and away. Low taxes, big time entrepreneurial community, cheap
labor...

but high rent.

------
andreasklinger
network london media newyork vcs israel costs living / talrnt pool
vienna/bratislavia

~~~
pmjordan
Not sure I agree with cost of living being good (low) in Vienna. Rent &
transport is cheaper than London, but more than Berlin or so. Taxation on
income is sky high - social security is ~24% on gross income for the self-
employed and only decreases once you hit ~€60k (though the first 2 years are
~16.5% plus a fixed amount instead); lowest tax band of 36.5% starts at €11k
yearly income - which I guess is OK as long as you're burning existing capital
but really hits you once you've got revenue. The available R&D tax breaks,
grants and such are clearly designed for larger corporations, not early-stage
startups.

Bratislava should indeed be much, much cheaper, though.

Re: talent pool in Vienna, I can't say from personal experience, but I doubt
it's better than London (though admittedly cheaper)

~~~
andreasklinger
you are right about the tax point

i wanted to keep a positive mood about the own home town berlin and london has
surely more talent. but also more competiton in getting the talent. eg setting
up a shoestring team in vienna should be easier than in london. the state
funds help a lot in the first years. i spoke with people in berlin. recruiting
there is currently very tough.

------
Andi
Trier, Germany - because I live there.

