

Why I (A Woman) Stopped Telling Young Girls to Go Into Engineering - wt
http://womanintech.tumblr.com/post/19549272757/why-i-stopped-telling-young-girls-to-go-into

======
overgard
I almost always avoid commenting on issues like this just because -- as a guy
-- there's no upside to saying anything and a lot of potential downside. So
even though I think the issue is interesting and important and worth
discussing, I generally find myself mildly terrified at the prospect of making
any sort commentary (or even really, at asking a question). There's kind of a
thing where if you're from a certain group, you can't really talk about this
sort of thing without making your "allegiances" super clear. I don't really
think that's a healthy intellectual environment. And even then, any thought is
met with a lot of wide looking eyes. There are indeed things you can't say.

So, I feel weird whenever I see articles like this on hacker news, not because
the subject isn't worth discussing, but because I feel like the only
commentary that's "acceptable" is platitudes. There's no real room for
exploration or thought experiments. The stakes are too high. It's not really a
discussion, it's more of a social game. Not a social game in the farmville
sense, but in the Eric Berne "Games People Play" sense. It's often quite
ritualized.

That said, I feel like this article is conflating an obvious cultural issue
with a gender issue, and I think that's a mistake. The link to me between the
culture problem and the gender problem isn't super obvious. I have a lot of
the same complaints as her with regard to a lot of startup culture, and I'm a
guy. The suggestion seems to be that somehow this particular startup culture
is obviously masculine, and I don't see how that's the case. I actually agree
with some (not all) of the criticisms of that culture, but I don't think that
it really has anything to do with gender. I don't want to suggest that gender
never plays a role, because I think that would be naive, but if you're going
to make that claim I think it's important you back it up with something solid
because making everyone walk on egg shells based on conjecture just makes
things uncomfortable for everyone, and that accomplishes nothing.

~~~
marquis
>making everyone walk on egg shells based on conjecture just makes things
uncomfortable for everyone

Yes, I agree completely, and the unhelpful comment left by 'Bill' on her page
served to 'shut her up', rather I wish he would ask a question, seek for more
details which could lead to a genuine understanding from all sides. It is
encouraging to me that you understand the core issue here: not that there are
problems but we don't know how to talk about them.

------
sad_panda
The friction (what little there is?) sounds like the result of her personal
differences with the people around her, instead of a fundamental difference
between the sexes. Lots of men can't stand the faddish "hacker" social scene,
either.

The title is plenty link baity, though.

------
defrost
Wow.

This reads like a good reason to advise people with wide interests not to go
into the IT field as there's a good chance they'll end up in a bubble where
all they talk about is IT.

There's nothing in here that specifically applies to women, nor applies to the
wider field of Engineering.

For goodness sake woman if you're trapped in an IT ghetto then get the f*k
out.

I've got women friends that went the trade route and became certified
electricians later transferring to programming after running their own
businesses - they're loving IT after male dominated site work. Another
acquaintance has a background in pure / applied mathematics, she founded an
Engineering/Math/Comp. Sci. faculty, hard work but no complaints.

My cousin has been in Civil Engineering for two decades and she's practically
running a large transnational now, loves her job.

A scary reason that might reasonably justify telling young girls not to go
into geology is that they might end up on a remote mine site as the sole
female and getting continuously sexually harassed and eyed up as a potential
rape victim. That's a very real issue.

Hanging out with a bunch of geeks that talk about nothing but their D12's and
their Rails code is certainly not for everyone, I agree, but please don't use
that as a reason to advise women to avoid Engineering.

------
marquis
As another woman in tech I read this hesitantly and find I don't agree with
the argument she is making here. While my workplace is also dominated with men
I have learnt to manage communication differences and stand on the merit of my
work. Yes, I consistently get belittled in small ways, mostly by older
clients, but if this is what I have to deal with it's a small thing and easily
brushed off - and I know it will disappear in time as our demographic loses
those who are not used to non-stereotypical people in their environment. But I
want to state that I'm a little older than her, and certainly in my 20s I
would rail against the hegemony at any chance I got. I made noise and I'm glad
I did - in all the arguments and frustration I was able to figure out who I am
and where I want to be. She needs to consider herself a pioneer and revel in
that - to celebrate her difference and what she can accomplish, and in that
different perspective what she brings to her field. If there are those that
resist around her, she has a choice to push back harder or move to another
environment.

I'd like to comment on her point that her co-workers are myopic in their
interests: this is irrelevant to her argument as she could just as easily be a
male whose interests lie outside of the status quo. I have seen many different
kinds of people work together, and in the right environment acceptance is key.
She may find that switching jobs give her a totally new outlook. Let me
provide a short example: I am not a gamer and have really no interest. But I
am fascinated by the mechanics and functionality of how a massive game such as
WoW is created. So if a conversation turns to a gaming topic, I know that I
have an opportunity to learn something (how does Blizzard scale, what is their
stack/languages etc). There is no topic that cannot be made interesting.

This comment here depressed me however: "Yawn. Then quit, whatever. Stop
bitching about it. The only thing I ever hear about from "women in tech" is
complaining, and it's boring."

This is completely unfair and unhelpful. She has a complaint, and it is
important for her to feel she can express this without fear of personal
attack. Comments like this is the reason things don't change, because we fear
being called out as 'emotional' or 'unreasonable'. A younger, or less
confident person, will take comments like these personally and wonder if their
concerns are valid. She has every right to enter the debate on her own terms
and we should approach her concerns reasonably and fairly. Losing any
brilliant mind because of suppressed expression would be a tragedy.

~~~
themgt
_I'd like to comment on her point that her co-workers are myopic in their
interests: this is irrelevant to her argument as she could just as easily be a
male whose interests lie outside of the status quo_

I find this sentence key in a number of ways. Tech firms or departments are
often filled with individuals with autistic-spectrum traits - among which are
poor social skills, an obsession with details, myopic interest and hyper-
rationalistic thought. ASD is 4-1 more prevalent in men than women

Her point is not that some of her interests lie outside the status quo, it's
that the entirety of her coworkers interests do - they are only interested in
or able to connect with each other or her regarding facts and ideas relating
to their work, and are seemingly unable to connect that work to any greater
meaning or purpose in life

~~~
prodigal_erik
Greater is a matter of opinion. Many of the fundamental discoveries (perhaps
excluding medicine) came from people obsessed with their field as an end in
itself rather than a means. Needing "this has a greater purpose in helping
other people" outside validation to maintain interest is a bad sign that you
have not found your calling, and it's a tendency I think our society
indoctrinates women with to their detriment. The need to trade with others
does influence _what_ I build, but they aren't the _reason_ I build.

------
Aloisius
It sounds more like she's in a lame job where the technical staff has no
interests outside of tech. I sympathize with that. When hiring, I search out
well rounded individuals. It is a little easier at my company because we're a
restaurant-focused startup, but still... the number of engineers I've met with
no hobbies or even interests outside of tech seems to outnumber the ones who
do.

It sounds more like the poster should find another job. Maybe go work in tech
at a company that actually works in one of her other interests.

------
fein
Perhaps it sounds a bit sexist, but I don't know many women that are actually
intrigued by CS/CE. The females in my graduating class are very good at what
they do, and very zealous about their work, but this is really the exception
to the rule and not the rule itself. The motivating reason for this has
nothing to to with the antisocial "nerd barrier", but with the nature of the
work. Can we start to gripe about why there aren't more men in the fashion
industry?

The point of view taken here is effectively that the author doesn't encourage
women to enter these fields because of the possibility of encountering an
awkward social situation and being exposed to equal opportunity employment,
however this issue is going to arise in ANY male dominated career.

The point about needing to connect in fields outside of ones work is also an
incredible load of shit. I have more social interactions with friends that are
completely outside of the tech world than those within. I'm a gearhead as well
as a developer, and my girlfriend has begun to introduce me to the world of
hair fashion (I color her roots on occasion). Because of these experiences, I
end up with plenty of social interactions with loads of individuals that give
me strange looks when I go on about the newest framework I'm playing with, or
the excitement over a new linux kernel.

People have different interests, its as simple as that. Sometimes, people only
want to live their work and nothing else. You should be encouraged to do what
you love, not discouraged because of some superficial office drama.

~~~
wpietri
It's disappointing to see someone in a technical context be so handwavey.
"Girls aren't interested in math, simple as that," is a way of being ok with
ignorance, not an actual argument.

One should be suspicious of that style of argument at all times, but doubly so
when it's convenient to the speaker.

~~~
fein
You call it handwavey, I call it first hand experience. I'm not here to
analyze why society seems to operate in this way, I'm here to state the
unfortunately obvious state of the field. Blame it on television, stereotypes,
biology, the stigma of the tech fields... I don't care. The fact of the matter
is that CS/CE doesn't seem to be something that a significantly large portion
of women actually enjoy.

~~~
wpietri
Exactly. You're ok with your ignorance. Which you somehow think exempts you
from having to do anything about the problem.

~~~
marshray
I think if you're going to call someone ignorant, you should back it up with
facts or at least put some effort into explaining your own opinion.

~~~
wpietri
Sure!

The hacker way is to continuously tinker with systems to improve them. As part
of that process, we seek knowledge through analysis, especially the sort of
knowledge that provides knobs to tweak.

Fein explicitly says "I'm not here to analyze" the system he's participating
in. He even goes on to list some potential causes of the negative outcome
we're discussing, and then says he doesn't care about the root causes. It's
those root causes that he's ignorant of. Not just accidentally ignorant, but
admittedly and willfully ignorant of.

I don't think that's coincidence. It's a natural human tendency be willfully
ignorant of uncomfortable truths. If Fein actually took time to understand the
problems keeping women out of CS, he might discover that he was part of the
problem, or that the power to improve the situation is in his hands. That's
certainly what I discovered when I dug into this stuff.

I say his sort of willful ignorance, however understandable is, is exactly the
opposite of what hackers are all about.

------
GB_001
Her point about why she wouldn't recommend other women to be engineers is
completely overshadowed with her workplace woes.

I get it, she dislikes her office culture, but that doesn't explain why she'd
pick such a gender specific title. I think it's a complete over-generalization
to use her experiences in her field to warn other females. To be honest, it
feels like a sympathy piece.

------
dubfan
How do you know that these things would not happen if you weren't a woman? How
do you know that you are only invited to speak at events to fill a quota?
These are things you simply can't know and will never know. Yes, OK, you are a
polymath and super smart, I get it. Honestly, to me this reads like someone
who hasn't quite gotten over herself.

------
afitz0
I don't understand why this post has anything to do with encouraging young
girls to enter science and engineering fields. Rather, I read this as the
musings of someone who doesn't like their current job and doesn't feel very
comfortable around the stereotypical engineer type. To that end, nothing in
this blog post is specific about why you [the author] feel it's necessary to
discourage leveling the gender ratios in our field. I understand that [male]
engineers more often than not make disparaging remarks, talk non-stop about
the latest (or sometimes the oldest) technology, and are overwhelmingly
socially inept, but this is not a reason to stop trying to get more women into
STEM. In fact, I strongly believe in the contrary: having more women in the
tech industry will greatly improve working environments, reduce the social
awkwardness about being a woman in this field, and make the field that much
more interesting.

In the end, my take away from this post is exactly opposite from the purported
thesis. The author's experience leads me to believe that we should absolutely
be encouraging young girls to enter tech. Yes, it might be painful and lonely
now, but if you start scaring girls instead of encouraging them, nothing will
ever get better.

We're engineers; our jobs revolve around building efficient systems by finding
the weak points and fixing them. A major weak point in the engineering system
itself is a lack of women. This needs to be fixed.

[Edit for typos]

------
BlackJack
I think you guys are focusing too much on the "how is this about women" aspect
and not the message. I agree that the bulk of her argument does not depend on
her being a women. Let's move on.

Isn't it true that there's a lack of intellectual diversity? Most good
programmers read about technology, code, and do technical things, but do they
have worldly wisdom? To quote Charlie Munger:

“You must know the big ideas in the big disciplines, and use them routinely —
all of them, not just a few. Most people are trained in one model — economics,
for example — and try to solve all problems in one way. You know the old
saying: to the man with a hammer, the world looks like a nail. This is a dumb
way of handling problems.”

I think by only focusing on one thing, a lot of programmers miss out on being
better. This theme recurs everywhere. Feynman used to talk about using a
"different box of tools" which enabled him to solve many problems. He would
also keep many problems in his head and whenever he learned a new trick, he
would apply that trick to all his problems. Every now and then he'd solve a
big problem and people would say he's a genius!

Gian-Carlo Rota, the MIT mathematician, once wrote that Erdos and Hilbert
(prolific mathematicians) had many interesting results, but it seemed they
used the same tricks over and over everywhere - they just had different
strategies.

It's impossible to develop new mental models or add to your toolbox when
you're learning what everyone else is learning. But if you explore beyond your
boundaries, then you'll pick up new things which will not only make your life
richer but also help you in your endeavors.

------
manojlds
Just the fact that tech is a male dominated field means that we should be
encouraging more young girls to go into it.

And correct me if I am wrong, but can't you move in a different social circle
than your colleagues? You don't have to restrict yourself to your colleagues
and if you are a social being, then you will not find it difficult to find
yourself the circle that you would like.

------
wt
Fascinating discussion here. Appreciate all the thoughtful comments but would
like to address a few:

"Sounds like it's a job problem, find another job" - I've had over 6 jobs in
my field. The longest for about 3. These patterns are all the same everywhere
I go. I am good at what I do and so I join companies with other people like
that - that's the only thing in common.

"I can't comment because I'm a man so everything I say will be sexist" - Not
true. Acknowledge that there are people who feel this way about the industry.
Until we can have a conversation about it, it won't change.

"It's not a gender problem, it's a culture problem" - Never claimed this was a
gender problem myself. The type of work encourages these types of people to
congregate. That, in itself, is a problem. We're trying to increase diversity
in an environment that is not diversity-friendly (from an
interest/perspective.)

"Learn to manage your communication" - At this point, I am a master of working
with men, but I have to work so outside my nature. Keep it cold enough so it's
not perceived as interest, keep it warm enough so I am not perceived as a
bitch. It's a thin line that, to be honest, is exhausting to walk the whole
time.

"Women don't love CS" - Wrong. In my department 80% of women quit after the
first few years and most cited social reasons for it. You can take a liberal
arts class where you can have intellectually stimulating conversation or you
can take a CS class where there is rarely conversation about things outside of
tech. I imagine that's hard. I loved CS, but I always needed to get out.

"Get outside the work circle and find other friends" - Sure, of course I have
them, but as startup culture goes you work 9 to 9 sometimes. What are you
supposed to do? You spend more of your time with your coworkers than anyone
else. Why shouldn't you reflect on how that environment makes you feel?

"Is this a post about gender issues or startup culture?" - It's both! They are
not separable. The culture, because dominated by men, creates an environment
that is not necessarily pleasant to women. When the only answer is to get more
women in, you're in a catch 22.

All other mean comments about this being a sympathy post or a disgruntled
employee, read more carefully. Random negative comments only reinforce what
I'm saying.

------
andrewflnr
It seems like only half of the problems she mentions are actually because
she's a woman in a male-dominated field, and the other half are just because
she has broader interests than most of them.

It seems the best solution for the first problem is still to get more women in
the field. I can't say for sure, but I bet it would help the second problem,
too. I wish she wouldn't give up.

------
EricDeb
Is this a gender-issue post or one about how the startup/tech world is
uninteresting?

It seemed like she switched themes halfway through the post

------
abalashov
I'm male and have many of the same sociological grievances with my tech sector
colleagues. I find it impossible to relate to people whose primary and sole
interest is technology, and who have stifling personal traits that seem to
correspond to that.

------
nubela
This is a tad out of point but as a male developer in Singapore, I face the
exact opposite situation. I have a hard time finding similar minded developers
who love the bleeding edge, tech startups, *nix vs Apple debates, etc. I'd
love to go to a conference, and just immerse myself in tech talks that go DEEP
into detail, and then have drinks, and thrash talk about Ubuntu, and still end
up using it.

Consider yourself lucky, ms dev.

------
kaitnieks
Is it impossible that one of the girls you discouraged from going into IT
would love to be in the tech-centered culture you mention? Is it biologically
impossible for women to enjoy exploring their field? Couldn't one of these
girls turn out to be a genius and create the big picture and the vision for a
change and show it to the IT guys, if only she wasn't discouraged?

------
dfxm12
_"...almost on a daily basis I have to deal with some situation that just
wouldn’t happen if I wasn’t a woman."_

I don't think the issues she lists will be solved by having fewer women in the
field. I also don't think these issues are unique to working environments
where men (greatly) outnumber women.

------
error
On one hand she's talking about the lack of diversity and on the other hand
she will not encourage young girls to join engineering...

I think the problems she referes to are completely unrelated to female in
tech!

------
carsongross
_I often find that I cannot bend my coworkers to step outside of tech_

Understand this, and all becomes clear.

------
etherael
I am glad that this did not resolve to "because all men are pigs" for once,
bravo poster.

~~~
radikalus
It instead was "nerds are too nerdy"

~~~
etherael
It's funny you know, under ordinary circumstances I'd find that an offensive
commentary, but I'm so accustomed to ranting tirades about how being a woman
in tech is an open invitation to constant unremitting sexual harassment I
perceived just the absence of this as a positive.

In retrospect though, yes, it still wasn't actually worth a commendation.

------
tbsdy
Are the issues caused by her gender, or because her co-workers can't see
outside the box? I'm not sure this is a gender thing, to be honest.

~~~
Shank
But are her co-workers not seeing out of the box because she's female? Just my
2c.

~~~
tbsdy
Good point - could be. But again, I think we need to be careful not to say
that this is occuring because of their gender. I know of a lot of friends who
are actually very good at IT, but who have a broader view of society, art and
literature. Many of these friends are male :-)

One thing it may be is that the hiring policies dictated that the people she
works with a very focused on IT only and don't have a broader view of the
outside world. I would argue that's a problem in the company she works in -
after all there are moments in IT where a great idea froms from outside
computing. The best example I can think of is Design Patterns, which came from
architecture.

------
incosta
Don't get me wrong on this, but a single 29 y.o. woman, loving her job, as she
admits, feels lonely and bored at her job because of all-male and tech people
around? It's not surprising. But it has nothing to do with tech or
engineering. My advise is get married (perhaps to someone outside of tech
field, but in the end it does not matter: to someone you like). It will solve
all problems.

~~~
jonahj
I too detected some sexual frustration in her writing. She feels "lonely" at
work and "bored" by the men around her? All these smart young men and not a
single one has brought excitement into her life?

~~~
tbsdy
I think you are probably reading things in the post that aren't there. She
sounds frustrated because they are so focused on IT. Sex really doesn't come
into it!

~~~
jonahj
My bad! Yeah, women in IT who are surrounded by men all day never think about
sex.

~~~
tbsdy
Nice turn of logic there. A woman who is surrounded by men all day think of
sex with them. Ergo, the writer of this blog post is sexually frustrated.

