
Ask HN: Am I too dumb for life, CS and STEM? - Saderen
I&#x27;m a 19 years old uni drop out, who is from and lives in a small town in Spain, but I am Ukrainian Citizen because of my parents and nationality acquisition issues.
I&#x27;m very concerned with my intelligence and with my complete inability to form and maintain relationships with other people.<p>I&#x27;ve spent most of my life on the IT ever since &#x27;11. When I was a teenager, I told everyone in my town I was smart and made good money online, which were lies, so my self-ego is inflated, but I&#x27;ve come to accept ever since that I am simply dumb.<p>My grades were average during HS (I especially struggled with math) until the last 2 years before Uni, when they tanked. I didn&#x27;t pass Chem &amp; Bio during the last year, but the teachers chose to pass my anyway in order so that I didn&#x27;t have to repeat a grade.<p>I then got the worst SAT score in class. I got a 3.5&#x2F;10 in math that made me go to a 2nd tier Uni to study CS. I studied &quot;irregularly&quot; for the SAT. In Uni, I failed all of the mid-term finals I had, even one that was non-CS related. I didn&#x27;t study &quot;well&quot; for them either.<p>The subject with which I struggled the most in Uni was programming. During the 2nd semester I got a seemingly unfixable segfault C++ error that lead me to loose all motivation in prog, even though the professor told me the code was sound. I&#x27;ve not programmed ever since, and I find opening a prog book scary.<p>The only thing that&#x27;s stopping me from killing myself are my parents, who currently sustain me and let me live in their house while I am &quot;struggling&quot;.<p>I think I struggle to study because of how dumb I am, both in regard to math specifically and in general. Am I simply too dumb for CS, STEM or modern work?<p>I have no will to progress anymore. What is it good for, if I am destined to be a sore looser genetically and because of my choices. It seems like all careers other than CS suck salary wise and will be automated in some way or another, and I can&#x27;t stop thinking about this and sleep.
======
badrabbit
First,HN isn't a good place to seek help regarding you suicidal thoughts,which
you should definetly see someone about.

You're over estimating too many things and using too much emotion in your
analysis. Objectively speaking,you should define your life goals first and
evaluate your abilities.

In my opinion,for "modern" or any other life,your career is primarily
important to take care of yourself and your dependents. Even homeless people
lead a life worth living. Life can always get worse or better.

Yes,natural abilities are imoortant but perseverance and wit are more decisive
in succeeding(even in programming). Therein lies your weakness based on what I
gather from your question. The fact that you gave up to easily and didn't
attempt to at least "fake it till you make it" is a big problem.

I don't consider myself talented in STEM either but I am confident I can debug
myself out of a segfault most days,primarily because of the ridiculous amount
of time I spent with C and gdb debugging simple code mistakes. I don't know if
I'd make a good programmer but since they want uni education in compsci,I
focused in IT fields which is working out great for me.

In the end,I think you'll do fine in general. I don't know if STEM or compsci
is for you based on what you mentioned but my advice is to at least
persistently pursue your dreams. I would also highly recommend investing in
relationships with people(personal,academic and professional) life is too hard
on your own.

~~~
Saderen
I've recently been to a psychologist, so yeah, about the suicidal part.

I understand what you mean, but it's just so hard for me to keep up with other
people. I am just awkward and I do not know how to interact with them. I
literally have a relationship maintenance problem, in a way :D

>In the end,I think you'll do fine in general. I don't know if STEM or compsci
is for you based on what you mentioned but my advice is to at least
persistently pursue your dreams. I would also highly recommend investing in
relationships with people(personal,academic and professional) life is too hard
on your own.

Indeed. Thanks a lot for replying and for the encouraging message:)

------
manuka
Well, selfhating thoughts are TRICKY... Trust me, I'm pro on the subject. :)
The tricky part is: you can never be sure that you are objective about
yourself. 90% of the time this bad thinking is linked to hormons.

The thing with hormos is this: WHen chemistry kicks in, you start to paint
EVERYTHING in black colors, your mind just switches circuits and you can not
reason with it (some of the pathways are just off). So immediate advice to
you: well... no metter what I say, your brain will process it depending on
what type of hormon reaction is dominant in your body :) So, most of the time
logical advice will not help.

I envy your 19years old... I got to know logarithms in my 30... and started to
code at the same time... Danm I wish I started earlier... I would have be
Einstein or he would have been second Me. :))

Remember one thing: you can NEVER be sure that your ranking of yourself is
objective. It might be genetically programmed into you to struggle in that
particula age...

Remember Darwin: no metter what keep existing that's how you win in the long
run.

Practical advice: Start from the beginning. Find a math book for school and
start again. Page after page. If stuck, find another book of the same
category... and so on.. I used to read about 40 (no joke) books on linear
algebra before my first undersanding kicked in. (mind you 90% of those were
abandoned in their first 1/5 text, cause I just stopped understanding the
material (it got too complex). Of those 40 books only once I was able to
finish a book with complete understanding. (it was the last of the bunch :)

~~~
Saderen
>. I would have be Einstein or he would have been second Me. :))

This made me laugh :D

>Practical advice: Start from the beginning. Find a math book for school and
start again. Page after page. If stuck, find another book of the same
category... and so on.. I used to read about 40 (no joke) books on linear
algebra before my first undersanding kicked in. (mind you 90% of those were
abandoned in their first 1/5 text, cause I just stopped understanding the
material (it got too complex). Of those 40 books only once I was able to
finish a book with complete understanding. (it was the last of the bunch :)

Oh, wow, that's a hell of a lot of books. I'll look into it for sure. After
reading or quasi-reading all of those books, did they change the way you
thought?

Thanks for replying :)

~~~
manuka
Of course they have changed me. In what ways? 1\. I know that I can learn
anything. BUTTTT I never rush. If you have a deadline, it will ruin
everything. No rush, no deadline. I learn because I LOVE it. I'm high when I
start to undestand complex subject, I wasn't able even to be able to think
about. Like entropy, "pull backs", probabilities ect.

No time limits, no deadlines for learning.

2) If you have a goal to reach some point of undestanding... that's not good
either. Goals MUST NOT define you. What must define you - activities you like
to do. If you set goals you'll never reach them (that's life) and you'll feel
miserable. But if you just like doing things, how can it ruin you? No metter
what goals you would achieve you still had a great time doing the thing
(achieving)... thus you'll die of old age having spend your life doing fun
things. No goals reached? Who cares? Fuck'em!

------
spectrely
Don’t lose hope! Just because you do poorly in school does NOT mean you are
not smart.

I joined the US Navy and went to Navy Nuclear power school, I did so poorly
that the instructors started writing “recruitment error” on my wrong math test
answers.

Now? I work for the #1 cyber security company and have an amazing life, with
no college degree.

What changed? I was diagnosed with ADD, prescribed aderral and that made all
the difference.

Find out what is keeping you down, solve it, and get the career of your
dreams!

~~~
hazmazlaz
Seconding this, have you ever been evaluated for ADD/ADHD? If you feel like
you are constantly failing to achieve your potential, can't focus on one thing
long enough to be successful, intimidated by hard work/the grind, find simple
but boring things like remembering to do chores difficult, you may be dealing
with this issue. Speak to a doctor about it (even though it's scary - do it!
You'll be glad you did if this describes you). Here is a link where people
talk about what it's like: [https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-know-if-I-really-
have-ADHD-AD...](https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-know-if-I-really-have-ADHD-
ADD)

~~~
Saderen
I visited a psychologist recently, she told me that because I didn't exhibit
many symptoms when I was younger I probably do not.

The loosing things around and lack of situational awarness is something that
doesn't resonate with me at all. I'm more of a massive procrastinator, though.

So I do not know.

Thanks for the link, it was really interesting to read other people's
experiences!

------
drenvuk
First off, don't kill yourself. If you feel you need to ask for help on that
issue please, before you head in that direction call the suicide prevention
hotline for Spain. 717 003 717

Second, it doesn't matter if you're dumb or not, there is a place for you.
Even if most of the jobs you're think of are automated there are jobs that you
haven't thought of that won't be automated.

Third, which follows closely to the second, you don't have to do CS. You can
force it and struggle which many times seems to be what programming is -
finding the bug, figuring out the solution. People have succeeded simply
because they didn't give up, or because they went for in depth help to get
over the hump. BUT if you want to go in a different direction you should keep
in mind that there will always, _always_ be a human doing something.

I seriously hope someone else comes by with better advice but you should
understand that there is a path just for you and as long as you don't
completely give up you'll get to a good place.

------
haolez
You are not dumb, you simply have depression. And you didn’t get depressed
because you failed, you failed because you got depressed.

No amount of thinking will get you out of this. You need professional help and
medication. Life will get better quickly after that and you will be able to
fulfill your potential, whatever it is.

------
pling87
I too went through a similar phase in life during college where I felt
worthless, completely socially inept, and suicidal.

The major thing you need to realize is that your self-worth is not tied to
what you do. Even some of the most successful people in the world feel like a
failure at times - this is because they are basing their worth on what they
do, not on who they are. And that is a trap. As a famous book says, you are
"fearfully and wonderfully made", and this is something you need to
internalize - that you are a unique human being with experiences that no one
else will ever have. You have two loving parents who recognize this fact. I
can hear you at this point raising an objection, "But that's just becaus-".
Stop that. Tune out of the negative self-talk and replace it with positive
self-talk.

At this stage of life, a lot of things are happening that are adding to your
stress. Don't give up. You'll find that this seemingly hopeless situation is a
case of "this too, shall pass".

Now for something practical. You say that you feel that dumb. I did too, and
sometimes still do. Why not put some of those feelings of inadequacy to work?
If you're of lesser intelligence, it means you will need to work much harder
to reach a average level of performance. With this mindset, I soon surpassed
my classmates in college, despite being a very slow learner and a person of
below-average intelligence.

I'm now working at a famous company as a robotics software engineer, and
loving every moment of it. Hard work pays off, even if you're of lower than
average intelligence. Take small steps towards your goals. As one author put
it, "Little by little, one travels far."

------
ohm
General suggestion that I heard from multiple people is to do something that
you enjoy and the money will typically come to you. Someone recommended "what
color is your parachute" book to figure out what you might want to do for
career. Also, even thought it's a US website, Occupational Outlook Handbook
site is a good reference too.

I went to school for CS and didn't like it. I'm in security now and the pay is
pretty good at least in US. I know I could make more if I was a developer but
I know I'm happier where I am so who cares. It's better to be in a happy
mental state than constantly miserable. At 19 you have a long life ahead of
you. And even if you want to get a job as a developer, study on your own at
you own pace. Know your limitations and set goals that are realistic, like
working for any company instead of the ones everyone wants to work for.

~~~
Saderen
I'm happy you found a good career in security. I understand what you mean,
having said so, it's really hard to find a different life path different from
the one I use to want to have because I feel really lost (and I become
completely insecure) whenever I think about it.

This is something I must research and "decide" by myself, but needless to say,
it's hard.

Thanks for replying and for sharing your personally story :)

------
dmicah
You're placing an awful lot of pressure on being in CS - there are many other
careers that have good salaries and will not be automated in the near future.
I also think you're placing too much emphasis on math proficiency in terms of
general CS success. Obviously some CS subfields are math heavy, but many are
not.

------
mamcx
"Is better to give than to get".

Aside your job, consider an activity that requiere help others. Most people
like when you help them, even in small ways.

Also, other activities that help to be "solo", but in the good way. Like
walking in a forest. Play music or paint. Exercise. Anything that allow to be
in your own thinking, but in the path to a positive objetive and not
remembering how much you sucks. (also, this can become groupal easily, and
still let you to stay alone sometimes!)

You absolutely not need to be good at any of that. People sign in the shower,
and suck at it!

So learn and do anything that you enjoy. Not work after a while? At 19 you
still have the luxury to change tracks fast.

However, also PAY attention to why, how you do things, what work or not, and
what effects and possible source of that are.

\---

In relation to programming, in the case your wanna continue:

You hit a problem, google it, fix the problem?

Congratulations, you are above average!

------
zzzzzzzza
"It seems like all careers other than CS suck salary wise and will be
automated in some way or another, and I can't stop thinking about this and
sleep."

that's bullcrap dude. Nurse, firefighter, cop, trades, yes even accountants...
by the time any of those are automated a lot of programming jobs will be too.

~~~
sharemywin
If I had it to do over I go into a trade. Get skilled(while everyone else if
in college). then after a couple years work for myself. And yes even in
today's automated environment.

------
err4nt
First, you CAN do a lot of things and you ARE intelligent. You're also brave
for asking here and I hope you're getting some helpful answers!

I think one thing you'll have to come to terms with is your lies about the
past. It may be the kind of thing you don't mention again and just move on
from, or if it comes up in the future it might benefit from you being a little
more honest with people. Impostor Syndrome is a very real thing for people in
our industry just because the world is changing so fast, so you'll likely deal
with Impostor Syndrome yourself at a number of times in your life/career. This
post might be an example of that kind of thing - you feel like a fake when you
think other people know what they're doing, and you're an imposter, and if
people find out, you'll be out of there. That's not true, and a lot of people
struggle with these feelings over many years. The good news is that the
solution to impostor syndrome is being honest with people. Don't be afraid to
reveal what you _dont_ know or _cant_ do to people. That will help.

Now for the question of "are you smart enough to CS or STEM work" I'm going to
say: YES. The fact that you're here, asking in what might be a second language
to you, and the intellect you're showing just in what you said all show me
that you have a good brain. The field of CS, and STEM is very vast, there are
TONS of options, and tons of roles.

You mentioned you ran up against a wall with C++. Me too right when I started,
you got farther than me :D You should try something a little more forgiving
like JavaScript. It's got tons of practical applications, you could build
websites, apps for your phones, desktop apps, server-side apps. I'd suggest
taking a more casual approach to programming and try to play with it, and be
creative with it, rather than just studying it seriously.

And in the meantime while you're 'struggling', thank your parents for
sheltering you and having patience, and trusting you. They've been invested in
you for two decades already, and I'm sure they want to see you spread your
wings and soar as an adult. You'll get there! They can help :D

------
alan_wade
At 19, you have no way of knowing whether you're too dumb for anything. All
people are dumb at something, vast majority of 19 year olds are dumb at all
things. It's possible to have aptitude for something you haven't tried yet,
it's possible that getting good takes just a lot more time and effort than you
put in so far.

The only way to find out how good you can get is to try a lot of stuff for a
few years, and spend 10-20 more years doing the thing you like the most(or
have the most aptitude at). Maybe you'll push through and find a way to get
success with CS, maybe you'll find out you're good at writing or art or public
speaking or something else.

One of my favorite quotes (from Atomic Habits):

> Focus on fulfilling your own potential not comparing yourself to someone
> else. People get so caught up in fact that they have limits that they rarely
> exert the effort required to get close to them.

Keep trying and learning and reading, this definitely beats killing yourself.

Also, as other people have said, your post reads like you're depressed. If you
have suicidal thoughts - share them with your friends, parents, a doctor, or
someone else you trust. The odds are it's just your brain chemistry making you
feel these things, which is fixable for many people with lifestyle changes and
medication.

Speaking of which, make sure to eat healthy, have enough high quality sleep,
and regular exercise. You'll be really surprised how much difference this
stuff makes, especially over time, both in intelligence and mood.

I felt suicidal when I was 19, and I'm VERY happy I didn't do this, I ended up
discovering things I love doing and feel very passionate about, and I want to
live SO MUCH, more and more every year. If you don't feel like living for your
career, live to watch the next season of Rick and Morty, to see Elon Musk land
a spaceship on Mars, to have your intelligence improved with whatever crazy
tech we'll have in 20 years, to avoid upsetting your parents - find any excuse
to keep going, it doesn't matter, what matters is that it's VERY likely that a
few years from now your life will change in all sorts of surprising unexpected
ways and you'll feel about this stuff very differently.

------
xiphias2
Don't kill yourself, life has too much fun even for you.

You're probably not that smart, but not dumb either. For smart people math
usually comes easy, as it doesn't require much memorisation.

Dumb people are not able to do deep self reflection.

C++ is probably not your language, so if you want to stay with computers, I
suggest you take a look at web programming, as it has the least math. You can
always switch inside programming if you change your mind.

Go for HTML, JavaScript, Vue as a start for example. Try to have fun with it.
Build things. Then come back and ask more questions.

------
sharemywin
If you interested in moving forward with programming:

You might try making a game for fun. To give yourself a goal that's more
intrinsic. with less stress.

Also, stay away from c++ until your a lot more comfortable with programming.
or ever.

You might check out python or vb.net to learn with. little bit easier to
follow what's going on.

I would look for tutorials with a cool library or api like an opencv +
language tutorial.

The best part of programming is when you can use some else's hard work to slap
together something cool.

~~~
Saderen
Oh... I was thinking about trying out some web development stuff, but because
of other issue I haven't tried doing so yet.

Also, gotta investigate what vb.net is. Never heard of it before!

Thanks for your response ;)

~~~
sharemywin
there are a lot of libraries out there that help you make cool things with a
little programming. But, in the beginning that's how you get into programming
and get passed the procrastination hump. VB.net is part of visual studio. it's
the .net version of basic. which to me is much easier to read and program.
Also, if your just learning to code windows forms is a good place to start
because you can drag and drop widgets on a screen and build pretty good local
programs.

------
gigatexal
Don’t kill yourself! You’re 19 things will be fine! Check out Lambda School
([https://lambdaschool.com](https://lambdaschool.com)). It’s an immersive all
remote coding school that won’t let you fall behind. They will support you the
whole way and you only pay them back if you get a job that pays 50k or more a
year. They’re opening in Europe too!

------
returnInfinity
Oh you are still 19, you have a long way to go. Take it slow. Try new things
and find what you like to do.

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booleandilemma
I’m going to invoke Betteridge here and say no :)

You can do anything you want. There will be struggle (such as what you
experienced with the segfault) but that’s the stuff that keeps other people
out, it doesn’t have to keep you out.

Good luck!

~~~
Saderen
Thank you :)

