
An Article About Startups That Wasn't Written By A Pretentious Asshole - joao
http://teddziuba.com/2008/08/an-article-about-startups-that.html
======
paul
Poor Ted. He spent all that time trashing other people's startups, and now he
has to cope with his own startup problems. It must be Paul Graham's fault.

Perhaps PG's advice isn't all perfect, and maybe it's not for everyone, but
the fact is that he has helped a lot of people, including hundreds of YC
founders, and they generally seem pretty grateful. Who has this guy helped?
What has he done to make the world a better place?

~~~
timr
That's not even remotely fair -- he makes several reasonable points, and other
than a mention of the fact that his startup life is hard, the post isn't
really a _complaint_ , so much as a criticism of the blind optimism that seems
to run rampant in the startup world.

Nearly everyone here is focusing on the attack on pg, and ignoring the
substance of the argument. Perhaps that's just because Ted is a controversial
character, but it still doesn't make the discussion here much more than a
collective _ad hominem_ attack.

~~~
paul
What are his reasonable points? That startups are hard? Everyone says that. If
you took out all the insults, hate, and swearing, there wouldn't be much
there, and it certainly wouldn't have as many votes as it does (because it
would just be yet another, "startups are hard" blog post).

It's possible that he _could_ have an interesting blog post here though. If he
spent less time attacking people and more time thinking about his motivations,
there might be some genuinely useful insights. His comment about "taking shit"
from everyone is somewhat revealing. It may be that he simple has the wrong
personality for this. I like our users (well, most of them), and it's part of
what I like about my job.

~~~
timr
Oh, come on....if you're even _slightly_ capable of understanding the subtle
linguistic nuances of his sarcasm (ahem), it's easy to see the main points:

1) Startup success has a lot to do with luck.

2) There are many people out there who have confused luck with skill, and
they're often the loudest, but they're not necessarily giving good advice.

3) Startups _are not_ a good/reliable way to make money, when you can be a
doctor, lawyer, banker (or even a corporate drone).

4) Startups _are_ a good way to maintain your independence.

5) ...but you'll still have to take a lot of shit.

6) Starting a successful company doesn't make you smart, virile or attractive.

7) Perhaps the only good reason to start a company is because it's fun.

~~~
paul
Perhaps, but it still reads like a "kicking the dog" post to me. (also, I
don't know if he'd agree with points 4 and 7)

BTW, I think the reason his writing annoys me is because startups ARE
difficult. The people attempting them have enough challenges to deal with --
they don't need this guy shitting on their heads (and making it seem "cool").

~~~
timr
I generally agree with you about his tone. The attack on pg was obviously
inane link-baiting (which seems to have worked), and the guy has made his name
from being negative and destructive. Still, he writes with such over-the-top
viciousness that I find it hard to take it seriously.

I'd probably feel more strongly about it if it were my head being shat upon,
but I tend to write off his bitterness as just another way of grabbing
attention.

------
rokhayakebe
"Anger is a cowardly way to express Sadness"

The article was funny, but he should not have insulted anyone. I think he is
angry at the world.

EDIT: Mostly mad at bloggers because his application did not get the best
reviews which is ironic because his blog uncov trashed most web application
development teams.

~~~
rantfoil
Looks like the link is back. I enjoy Dziuba's writing, but it's not cool to
personally call out PG.

My only reaction to this article: Don't feed the trolls.

~~~
sd
Even though this article is brimming with hyperbole, it brings up a number of
important points that are often glossed over by many readers of HN. These
include:

1) For most entrepreneurs, the present value of expected personal profit from
a startup is probably less than that from a salary at a big tech company -- or
even less so than from on Wall Street. 2) Luck begets success in
entrepreneurship. Sure, it requires hard work and some intelligence, but
obviously there are far more smart and hard working people than people who
started public companies. Perhaps the function should be "(success) = (hard
work) * (intelligence) * (luck),” where hard work and intelligence = 0 or 1
and luck is any real number. 3) Many tech bloggers and journalists are writing
about things in which they don't have expertise. It's commonly cited among the
academics whom I’ve met that expertise requires 10+ years in a field. Many of
these people are in their 20s. Something doesn't add up. Moreover, many
experienced people extrapolate their previous lessons to situations that are
too broad or not directly parallel.

~~~
fallentimes
If our start up works, it will primarily be due to luck and timing.

I certainly agree with points 1, 2, and 3, but I think you're forgetting a
very important point: many of us are doing startups because we love the
environment and type of work.

We wake up every day excited to work on TicketStumbler. Sure you have bad days
or even rough weeks, but overall I'm much happier than I've ever been at a
more formalized job. I think the last formalized job Tom had was "grocery
bagger" so I can't really speak for him.

This certainly doesn't apply to everyone at a startup, but it applies to a lot
of us.

------
noonespecial
FTA _Money can be made elsewhere, without nearly as much bullshit: Wall
Street, the court room and the operating room, to name a few._

He just named the places where bullshit _lives_. I'm speechless. And I liked
Starcraft dammit!

~~~
mattmaroon
I know for a fact one can play Starcraft and get with girls. One of my college
roommates did both at the same time. I wish I were joking there.

~~~
fallentimes
Quiet or I'll 4 pool ling rush you.

Did he picture her as Kerrigan or the Zerg Queen?

~~~
alaskamiller
there should be some sort of hacker news starcraft night

~~~
tdavis
When Starcraft 2 comes out, Dan and I may have to shut down the business for a
while...

~~~
alaskamiller
Think you'll survive until 2015?

~~~
fallentimes
We do, actually.

------
pmorici
"As an entrepreneur, probably 2 days out of 3 are better than they would be if
I had a real job. That's probably the best reason I can come up with." [ for
why he became one ]

That about sums up the content of the article.

------
scott_s
The title lies.

------
SwellJoe
Imagine Zed Shaw, only angrier and a less effective writer (I know, it's hard
to imagine either...), and you won't have to actually read any Ted Dziuba
posts. You can just imagine what he would say based on the title alone.

------
fallentimes
"Being an entrepreneur doesn't mean you're smart. A smart guy will figure out
how to make a bunch of money while taking on much less risk. Corollary to
this, there are a lot of dumb entrepreneurs out there."

I'd argue that doing a startup with someone else's money (thanks PG and Co),
at a young age, and in a struggling economy is much less risky than my former
spot.

I used to work in finance and many of my friends are out of jobs with nothing
to fall back on. I could have easily been one of them. At least if this fails,
I'll come out with a ton of experience in numerous areas and good friends.

------
whalesalad
I have nothing whatsoever against Paul Graham, I really don't know too much
about him and aren't one of the many on here who paste all of his articles
onto the cube walls surrounding their toilet, and have read them dozens of
times, etc.... blah blah.

However... I do think that a lot of you are shutting Ted down simply because
he said shit about PG.

Ted is funny as hell, and pretty much everything he said in his "rant" is spot
on.

Personal note: I submitted this at +152 points here on news.yc, let's see how
far it drops! Like Google after their earnings report? We'll see :)

~~~
menloparkbum
"Cocksteak" is indeed hilarious and could have only been created by true
genius. It starts out with a word that generates guffaws on its own and
strengthens it with imagery of slabby meatiness. The composition of the two
pierces the rational mind and draws out autonomic "laffs" from deep within the
humor cavities of our reptilian brains.

I just hope his startup, a web page that lists links to other web pages, does
not get in the way of his truer literary calling.

edit: </sarcasm>

~~~
gruseom
I kind of agree. He can be a very good (though uneven) writer. You couldn't
possibly take the vulgarity out of his best stuff without rendering it, uh,
flaccid.

Great satirists can be witty, vulgar, and highly personal all at the same time
and yet come across as hilarious rather than offensive. But you'd better be
saying something good or true. If you miss the mark, you're just an asshole.
The trouble with this piece is not that it's vulgar but that it's mostly
unfunny and drab. And the trouble with the swipe at Paul Graham is not that
it's vulgar (or even that it's personal) but that it's gratuitous.

Edit: incidentally, your last sentence strikes me as a shrewd observation.

------
edw519
_Will my startup make it? Who knows, but at least it was more fun than a
colonoscopy._

Too bad we can't say the same about your writing.

------
DaniFong
It's pretty amazing. A few years ago, entrepreneurs wouldn't have even tipped
into this guy's radar.

We've hit the big time. People are dripping with hate, envy, and
disparagement. It seems as if entrepreneur hackers -- people who try to make
something new, are now officially a subculture. Hurrah?

------
hooande
I don't know...I think that people who are wildly successful have a right to
have a bit of an ego. If you do something ridiculously difficult and succeed,
you should feel proud and let people know that you're proud.

Can you imagine the New England Patriots without a Super Bowl swagger? A rock
star who is genuinely humble? The president of the US acting like he's just an
ordinary person?

I think if you sell your company to google (or better, start the next google)
you almost have a responsibility to act accordingly. Walk around with your
chest out and your head held high! Talk like you know something! Or else
what's the freaking point? If you don't act like you're at least supremely
confident, you're almost doing a disservice to everyone else who is trying to
get to be where you are.

------
deathbyzen
Stopped reading at "cocksteaks."

~~~
swivelmaster
But that was the best part! (Anyway, that's how Ted writes.)

~~~
scott_s
So, badly.

~~~
swivelmaster
Well I'm saying if you click on a Ted article you should know what to expect.
Just because he uses harsh language doesn't mean his ideas aren't worth
considering.

~~~
scott_s
He uses harsh language as a writing crutch. It's easier to elicit a response
from readers by shocking them with curse words than with ideas.

It's not actually his cursing that I object to. His writing is not coherent or
original. He spends more time attacking others than presenting original ideas.

------
toki
Just another rant. Once i liked rants very much, because they are often funny
and somehow cool, but after reading too much of them in blogs i have become a
little bit bored and suspicious:

If i read a rant what makes me say "yes!" to the article?: Is it the content?
Or is it more the writing style which makes even the most stupid points and
argumentations sound logical and cool?

Take this rant as an example: it is somehow succesful on hacker news despite
having absolutely no content other than that its author feels fine two days
out of three. If he would have written that in a normal style not even his mum
would have read his blog entry. But by insulting other people and writing
somehow aggressive he creates attention that isnt supported by the content.

------
huhtenberg
In short, and quoting from the article itself, - _some dick writes about
startups or entrepreneurship on his "Random Musings of an X Programmer" blog_

:)

~~~
aasarava
Aren't direct notes from a developer who was in the trenches at a startup
exactly what you _want_? (As opposed to say, a Harvard Business Review article
trying to give advice on how best to run a Silicon Valley tech-based startup?)

------
defen
Remove the pg name-calling and this is exactly the "Random Musings of an X
Programmer" post that he mocks, that no one would have read.

------
sysop073
I have no idea where the lottery analogy is going. Winning the lottery is
entirely luck, so it seems to imply that building a successful startup is luck
too, but since he doesn't actually argue that point anywhere I'm inclined to
think he's just spouting analogies at random hoping nobody will notice they're
baseless

~~~
eugenejen
No, some lottery winners will say they spent a lot of time and effort to
figure out the hidden pattern among winning numbers in a lottery. So they
worked a lot just like all startup founders.

~~~
mattmaroon
It's certainly not entirely luck. There's a literal 0% chance I'll ever win.

------
maxharris
This article is empty and the title is misleading.

------
maxklein
He's right. The odds of actually making millions of this startup game are
pretty low.

~~~
emmett
For Y-Combinator founders it appears to be pretty decent so far, but perhaps
that's an anomaly.

------
nickb
Add <http://teddziuba.com/atom.xml> to google reader and you'll find it there
if you're curious.

------
iamelgringo
Should this article be flagged? It's pretty trollish.

------
auston
That guys startup, pressflip has a sweet logo: <http://pressflip.com/> !

~~~
pxlpshr
Except that it looks heavily influenced by the INHD logo.

<http://media.jackmyers.com/images/march-inhd-logo.gif>

<http://pressflip.com/static/pf_web_logo_front2.png>

~~~
jonknee
Well INHD hasn't existed for a while, so I don't think there will be much
confusion.

------
swombat
_Not Found

The requested URL /2008/08/an-article-about-startups-that.html was not found
on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an
ErrorDocument to handle the request._

If you're gonna vote-bomb something to the top of YCNews, you might want to
check the URL works first!.....

~~~
swombat
Also, without having read the article, since it's not found, any article with
that title can only have been written by a pretentious asshole. :-)

------
m0nty
"I'm just full of piss and vinegar, and I call 'em as I see 'em."

Definition of "asshole."

------
skmurphy
"Entrepreneurs start businesses because...they have no choice. Passion and
energy drive them on good days and sustain them on bad days." Barry Moltz in
"You Have to Be a Little Crazy"

------
baruman
"An Article About Startups That Wasn't Written By A Pretentious Asshole"

...Wanna Bet?

------
joshwa
404

~~~
bluishgreen
you didn't miss much.

------
alex_c
Meh.

