
Berlin’s Popular Shopping Streets Will Go Car-Free - jseliger
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/08/walking-in-berlin-friedrichstrasse-tauentzienstrasse/595597
======
Yuval_Halevi
As someone who lived next to the main square in Amsterdam

I never understood why people choose to drive with a car on the roads that
cross the city (if they don't live there/uber/taxi drivers)

Main streets in cities should be car-free

I'm glad to hear about Berlin decision. For many more to come

~~~
flexie
I really don't see why taxis or Uber should be allowed, at least if they are
not fully electric. They are often larger than private cars, and they drive
only the chauffeur and typically one grown up customer around, who could
easily have walked, taken the metro or a bus. Half the time they are just
waiting around for customers while the engine is on so the chauffeur can cool
down or warm up inside.

A better exception would be EVs. Then lower their speed limit to 20 or 30 km/h
in the city center, narrow car space to one lane in each direction, and free
up the rest of the space on the streets for pedestrians, bikes, electric
scooters, etc.

~~~
Plasmoid2000ad
Not everyone is capable of walking long distances, using bikes or electric
scooters. Taxis are a form of public transport.

I'm not saying everyone who uses them needs to use them, but if you ban them
outright you ban certain people outright, which is discrimination in the
absence of alternatives.

~~~
oska
> in the absence of alternatives

Can't make this argument any longer. Plenty of electric vehicles which can
serve as taxis, and in the UK they manufacture one especially for the purpose.
[1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEVC_TX](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEVC_TX)

------
chrisseaton
I don't even understand why anyone is driving down a road like that in the
first place. Where are they coming from and where are they going? Where are
they planning to park when they get there? They surely aren't parking outside
individual shops?

I can understand taxis, delivery vans, busses, chauffeur cars, disabled
people, but when I see a private individual in a small cheap car driving
through the very centre of somewhere like London I can't think of any
explanation for that whatsoever. I wouldn't attempt to drive through a major
city unless my life depended on it. Even if you were radically pro-car there
doesn't seem to be any logical explanation as for what these people are doing.

~~~
luckylion
Berlin's public transport is notoriously bad (imho), a lot of it is owed to
being divided for decades and the rest is just Berlin not taking care of it.
Personal transportation is a much better alternative for many routes time
wise, and hard to ever beat comfort wise.

There's a lot of commercial parking available, and it's not that expensive
either.

~~~
BjoernKW
Notoriously bad? Compared to what cities? It's certainly one of the better
ones in Germany, if not even the best. You can absolutely get around in Berlin
without a car.

The other larger cities and conglomerations in Germany don't compare
favourably, with Rhine-Ruhr (which stretches roughly from Cologne to Dortmund)
being particularly bad.

In Europe Berlin's public transport system probably is only rivalled by those
in London, Paris and Amsterdam.

~~~
luckylion
You _can_ get around in Berlin without a car, you're absolutely right -I've
done it myself- it's just not convenient compared to using a car (or bike, if
you're traveling light and reasonable distances), which is why, I believe,
many people are using their cars despite the fact that public transportation
exists. I very much prefer Hamburg's public transportation for speed,
reliability and upkeep (though they often sucked at planning for rush hour and
large events when I was living there), and the (albeit limited) experiences I
have in Frankfurt, Dusseldorf and Bonn were better, too.

It wasn't my intention to insult anyone's home town, Berlin's history explains
a lot of the situation, which I mentioned in my comment, so please don't take
it personally.

~~~
pantalaimon
Maybe you have a much higher level of stress tolerance than me, but driving
though Berlin is anything but convenient.

And unless you are driving at night or the early morning it's also not faster
than the S or U-Bahn with the added hassle of having to find a parking spot.

~~~
luckylion
Possibly regarding the stress tolerance, the fondness (or lack thereof) of
Berlin's specific culture likely plays a role as well.

And I'm not saying that the car is superior for any and all connections, but
that it's superior for many that aren't easy to do by PT. It's similar with
trains: Berlin to Hamburg is easy by train, but if your destination requires a
switch or two, the car is often the quicker option on medium distances.

~~~
kayoone
My partner drives to work by car from Fhain to Reinickendorf because the PT
connection is not great and it takes more time. So that totally makes sense.
For me commuting to work into Mitte is 20 minutes with PT with one change at
Alexanderplatz, which is super easy. So it depends i guess.

------
lqet
Good.

Where I live (town of around 250k inhabitants), cars were banned from the main
shopping street in the city center in the 1970s. It was an extremely
controversial decision. Today it is one of top 15 most expensive shopping
streets in Germany and the 9th most visited shopping street [0]. If anyone
would propose to again allow cars there, there would be an outcry from the
public and the businesses.

Before:
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Kreuzung...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Kreuzung_am_Bertoldsbrunnen_an_einem_SSV_Samstag.jpg)

After:
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/2017-05-...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/2017-05-02_Altstadt_%28Freiburg_im_Breisgau%29_18.jpg)

They slowly extended car-free zones during the 80s and 90es. Five years ago,
they closed down another major 4-lane street and made it a pedestrian or
reduced traffic zone, which was also (again) hugely unpopular, but is now seen
as a big success (despite minor controversies which have nothing to do with
banning cars) [1].

Before:
[https://deacademic.com/pictures/dewiki/85/UB_Freiburg.jpg](https://deacademic.com/pictures/dewiki/85/UB_Freiburg.jpg)

After:
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Werthman...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Werthmannstra%C3%9Fe_%28Freiburg_im_Breisgau%29_jm57877.jpg)
(the black building replaced the abhorrent building in the previous picture)

[0] [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser-Joseph-
Stra%C3%9Fe_(Fre...](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser-Joseph-
Stra%C3%9Fe_\(Freiburg_im_Breisgau\))

[1]
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platz_der_Alten_Synagoge_(Frei...](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platz_der_Alten_Synagoge_\(Freiburg_im_Breisgau\))

------
hannob
To put this in perspective: The plan is to do this _for a single weekend_.

And maybe even more putting it in perspective: Berlin's senator of traffic and
environment has announced a lot of things regarding "traffic change", new
bicycle paths etc. But there's a really huge gap between announcements and
what's really happening.

~~~
tnolet
Correct. Living in Berlin for 5 years now and do almost everything by bike.
Change is extremely slow or non existent. Some stuff is going on in Kreuzberg
and Mitte, but it’ Taking ages.

~~~
Faark
I can think of quite a few streets where one oftthe lanes were converted to
bike lanes over the last few years. Still have a hard time believing they had
the guts to do this to car owners. Yes, progress is slow. Especially compared
to capitalistic endeavours like the recent scooter rollout. Who's it were
faster, but also hate the "they are just talking" narrative.

------
munk-a
Hooray! In my locale (Vancouver BC) we've slowly watched the city deploy more
of those fake on-road-patios onto the main commercial street here and I'm
hoping we'll just shut down car traffic soon since, honestly, if you're
driving in downtown you're doing it wrong.

~~~
notatoad
i've been told by people in the planning office (in my town, not vancouver)
that that's the main purpose of those on-street "temporary" patios - to get
people used to the idea that streets are public spaces, not thoroughfares for
cars.

------
Narretz
Calling the Friedrichstraße a popular shopping street is not really correct.
It's pretty crowded by foot and car traffic because it's close to Checkpoint
Charlie and not far from the Brandenburger Tor. But it's not very popular. For
normal customers, new soulless shopping malls have been built in other areas.
For luxury shopping, people go to Kurfürstendamm. There's a small shopping
mall that's 80% empty (Quartier 205 or 206). The idea to close the street for
traffic is also to see if it makes it more popular again. But then it should
be done during the week,too.

------
spodek
I don't know the middle steps, but the end step is everyone wishing they had
made the area car-free earlier.

------
heyalexej
Looking forward to this. I've just spent two weeks in Kiev, where they block a
large section of Khreschatyk St. (8 car lanes plus very wide side walks)
around Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square) plus some of the side roads
each weekend. It makes for an amazing atmosphere and lots of people come out
to socialize, chill, shop etc. and I'm almost certain business is better on
pedestrianized days vs. 8 lanes full of cars for no good reason.

~~~
toomuchtodo
How do citizens who have limited mobility get around in the area this is
enforced in? Huge proponent of these efforts (having experienced car free
zones in Spain), but I’m always interested in how accommodations are made for
people who have a hard time walking (whether it’s due to age or an ailment).

~~~
IfOnlyYouKnew
They walk...

Check Google Maps for some representative distances (i. e. picl some apparment
building, then map the route to the next supermarket, doctor's office, etc).

You will have a store within 500m for the vast majority of residential
buildings, and often within 200m. The closest bus stop should also rarely be
farther away than about 150m.

Wheelchairs and electric scooters are used almost exclusively by paraplegics,
not by, say, elderly people with arthritis. Having far lower obesity rates
compared to the US helps.

My impression is that car ownership is exceedingly rare among the elderly,
below the already low 30% of households owning cars.

But these pedestrian areas don't make too much of a difference: they tend to
be just single streets, so you can always park on the parallel streets and
walk just one block.

~~~
toomuchtodo
> They walk...

My grandmother is 90, and is unable to walk more than a few feet at a time
without being in debilitating pain from advanced arthritis and her being too
old for knee replacement surgery. These are the edge cases I'm interested in,
especially as the first world rapidly ages and the number of people in the
population with mobility issues increases. If the solution is exceptional
accessibility for wheelchairs and electric scooters, perfect!

------
xref
As a former delivery driver I’m curious how shops get shipments of multiple
pallets of...everything? Early in the morning are trucks allowed? are the
pallets broken down and handtrucked to each shop?

~~~
reaperducer
I've seen this in some cities (Vienna, for example), and the bollards are
lowered (either manually or hydraulically) in the early hours of the morning
so that deliveries can be made. They go back up around 7am.

~~~
WalterBright
I was in Denmark where they had that. Unfortunately, they'd constantly let
through "special" vehicles, just enough to pretty much ruin it.

~~~
jopsen
In many smaller Danish towns you _can_ drive on top the shopping streets, but
there'll be big signs telling you that it's only allowed for "service/special
vehicles".

If you get caught there you'll probably get a nice fine. And you can be sure
all the pedestrians will make you drive slow.

Finally, the road usually has tiles so you don't get in there by accident, nor
would you want to.

~~~
WalterBright
There were plenty of them driving, slowly, and loudly beeping. Enough so it
was simply impossible to walk without constantly having to move over for them.

It didn't really work as a pedestrian mall. I've been in other European cities
where it did work, i.e. no vehicles.

~~~
LeonidasXIV
> There were plenty of them driving, slowly, and loudly beeping. Enough so it
> was simply impossible to walk without constantly having to move over for
> them.

Where in Denmark was that? I don't see any loudly beeping delivery cars in
Copenhagen.

~~~
WalterBright
It was about 10 years ago. I don't remember just where it was.

------
rmason
In the sixties it became popular among urban planners, at least in the
American Midwest, to have shopping districts ban cars. It did not prove
popular, in fact you could say it led to the rise of shopping malls. Most if
not all of these car free plazas were torn out. Is history repeating itself in
Europe?

What happens if everyone moves to electric cars and the pollution problem from
car exhaust disappears or is greatly abated in the inner city? Does closing
the street off still make sense?

~~~
okusername
You should visit Europe once, you'll see that life here is different.

Specifically regarding Friedrichstraße: It's in the city center, brimming with
tourists. 3 major subway lines have stops there. Few cars drive in there as it
is, because you have bigger streets nearby that are better connections. If you
still want to go with your car, you just park in a parallell side street,
there are even parking garages if you don't want to look for a spot.

Having it car free will be lovely for the tourists, cafés and restaurants will
put out tables.

The same was done in other city centers like Budapest or Vienna decades ago,
and it worked out extremely well for everyone involved.

------
neals
Fun fact: I live in a car-free "downtown" area in Europe. I have to walk 15
minutes to reach my car... but just 5 minutes to the train station.

Not complaining though; it's a beautiful walk.

------
gumby
What happened in Barcelona? I read that they are unwinding the superblocks
(large, largely car-free zones). Is that correct? I t thought it had gone
well.

~~~
the_gipsy
I heard they did some prototype that ended up being successful once they added
some green elements and child playground.

[http://ajuntament.barcelona.cat/superilles/es/](http://ajuntament.barcelona.cat/superilles/es/)

~~~
gumby
Thanks!

------
kleiba
The (European) city I live close to has done this very step about 30 years ago
when their main shopping strip was converted to a pedestrian / bike-only
street.

However, everytime I go there, the street is still full with cars: delivery
trucks that bring the retail goods to the stores (which are not easily
accessible otherwise), construction trucks for the apparently constant repairs
they're doing on the road, ambulances, etc. Even when most of them are not
_driving_ you're still constantly surrounded by (mostly big) vehicles.

~~~
tom_mellior
In Vienna the central pedestrian tourist/shopping streets are open for
deliveries until 10:00 or 11:00 in the morning, so if you go there at those
times, it's quite chaotic. But then all the vehicles are gone for the rest of
the day.

~~~
ckris
These days most shopping streets also tends to be closed from traffic for
security reasons. So it is probably mostly an organizational issue.

------
trophycase
Please please do this in the US too.

~~~
99chrisbard
That's gonna take a while.. [https://granolashotgun.com/2019/05/13/obstacle-
course/](https://granolashotgun.com/2019/05/13/obstacle-course/)

------
mcv
The interesting part of the story is not so much that Berlin is finally making
its main shopping street car-free, but why it hasn't done so before.

Dutch cities and towns have had car-free or car-poor shopping streets since as
long as I can remember, certainly the early 1980s. It's not unusual even in
smaller towns. And Munich shows that car-free city centers also exist in
Germany, just not in Berlin.

~~~
jdnenej
We have a car free shopping street in Adelaide, Australia. It's fairly nice. I
used to work in an office on that street and the one thing I miss that I
didn't expect was how fast it was to get around. Now I'm working somewhere
else and the places I get lunch from are the same distance away but navigating
through the roads means it takes twice as long to walk to where I want to go.
It's also just generally ugly and louder at the new place.

------
arianvanp
Friedrichstraße is not a shopping street by any means. It's probably one of
the most desolate places I can think of in the city 'centre' (Berlin has many
city centres)

~~~
jhrmnn
The official Berlin website disagrees with you,
[https://www.berlin.de/en/shopping/shopping-
streets/](https://www.berlin.de/en/shopping/shopping-streets/). I live in
Berlin and disagree too.

------
Ericson2314
> At Tauentzienstrasse, the street is wide enough for a more radical makeover.
> If it’s fully closed for good, it could accommodate cafés and what Germans
> call “lying meadows”—lawns intended for lounging and sunbathing—in its
> median.

Wow, I was just thinking an hour ago that they should do that to queens
boulevard, while crossing it (always very scary).

------
Ericson2314
So when does this begin? I'm about to go to Berlin for ICFP and would love to
stand in a car-free street and imagine all cities were like this.

------
jasonvorhe
It's starting. Finally.

