
Ask HN: anyone ever drop everything and leave software dev behind? - brosephius
I know most everyone that hangs out here sees themselves as hackers/coders/etc, but anyone ever leave the software world to do something unrelated? I've been programming professionally for 5 years now, and am at a point where I can't really take it anymore.<p>The problem?<p>* Golden handcuffs - I'm leaving a lot of unvested money on the table if I leave, and realistically speaking if I leave this job I won't get anything that pays nearly as well for years<p>* Lack of "support group" - sure I could up and move to &#60;random country&#62;, but I don't really have much of a social circle so I'm a bit daunted by the prospect of being even more alone<p>* Still want to code - I don't hate software, but my job has made me realize that I'm really just a mediocre programmer with really good domain knowledge<p>* Aspirations - if I leave the corporate coding world, all of the other things I really want to do aren't exactly less stressful - move to LA and become a filmmaker, move to SF and join a startup, etc.<p>On the plus side, I can afford to be unemployed for at least a year, so I'm seriously considering just quitting outright to figure things out (with the caveat mentioned above that once I leave, coming back to this job/pay level is not going to happen). Anyone have similar thoughts/experiences/stories?
======
edw519
_I'm really just a mediocre programmer with really good domain knowledge_

Your problem is that you have no problem. Let me explain...

I believe that the "quality" of a programmer is not how much you know, but
what you can do with it. So it you have "really good domain knowledge", then
you probably aren't a mediocre programmer at all, you're probably a good
programmer or even better.

Like many other hn'ers, I love to come here are check out the latest cool
stuff people are doing. Then I hear the 2 voices in my head. One says, "That
is so cool - I have to learn that!" The other says, "Big deal, I could do that
in BASIC. I may need a few more lines of codes and a couple of hacks, but it
will still do the exact same thing."

It's tricky to balance all the cool stuff going on with your ability to _just
get stuff done_. You will never learn everything. You will never become the
expert at more than one or two things. It's great to _learn_ , but not at the
expense of _doing_. You need both. There were many times I had to build
something with my limited knowledge and wished I knew more. But then I built
it anyway. Something built with limited resources today is better than
something built perfectly tomorrow.

If you're unhappy with your job but like coding, then either find another job
or start something on the side. But please don't fall into the trap that you
aren't good enough because _someone else_ knows _something more_. That will
always be the case. You can't win that battle.

Just do the best with what you have and make a practice of adding to it a
little at a time. Get satisfaction from the benefits you provide others with
what you know now.

~~~
pgbovine
great advice (as usual), edw519 ... have you thought about starting a blog
with an FAQ mined from your responses from "Ask HN" questions? an easy hack
that someone else could even do would be to troll through "Ask HN" threads,
extract the ones where your answer was highest-ranked, and slap them together
on a webpage somewhere. then that could be manually filtered and curated. i
think that this would be a helpful page for young programmers just getting
started with their careers

~~~
edw519
Thanks for the kind words, pgbovine.

Yes I have thought about starting a blog for some time, but I was always
afraid it would take time away from my programming.

Oh, what the heck...

<http://edw519.posterous.com/>

I have updated my hn profile.

Now I have a weekend project.

------
junklight
First of all you mentioned two "unrelated" examples - one of which sounds like
exactly the same thing in a different environment. Being a film maker is not a
job either - I assume its like most creative industries and that 90% of the
people who do it don't actually make a living wage. That's not to say don't do
it but do think about what you are up to.

All of this suggests that its the moving on and not where you are moving too
you are focused on.

Secondly - you don't sound like you have any dependants or responsibilities.
So - best time in your life ever to make a move. (plus you can live for a year
without income! Luxury!)

Thirdly there is _never_ a best time to do _anything_. If you wait for all the
conditions to be right you will still be working at the same job when you are
60 still hating every minute.

and lastly in general you get to pick one of a) safe or b) interesting in a
job - it is very rare to get both immediately.

You are young and free - and if you can't pick (b) now you never will be able
to. If you pick (b) now you can always go for (a) later or you will find a
niche where your type (b) job acquires some safety

and ps. Corporate programming _is_ totally rubbish for the most part in my
experience and your feelings about the job are not the same as your feelings
about software development.

------
ab9
My story is quite similar to yours. I was a software developer for several
years. It was intensely disillusioning and after thinking the same thoughts as
you, I quit. I've been unemployed for the last year and a half, trying to
"figure things out."

It doesn't feel like my sabbatical has been a huge success. But in the future,
I might look back and realize it was essential. It's been relaxing, and I've
done a lot of reading I wanted to do, but my reading list is still infinitely
long (one book references another, ad infinitum). I haven't figured out what
my life's work will be, and I feel a bit foolish for ever thinking I would.

You can take this as a kind of warning: a sabbatical may be the best option
available to you now, and it may be exactly what you need, but don't expect it
to be magical.

------
neilk
I have a friend who dropped his career to go be an emergency medical tech /
wilderness firefighter for about six years. He was/is a top operations guy,
network guru, Plan 9 contributor, etc. etc.

Recently he got a bit tired of the firefighting life. Workplace politics
mostly, believe it or not. Also, an interesting contrast: in the tech world,
you can advance as fast as you can learn things. Not so in the firefighting
world, where it takes years to convince others of your skills and to lobby for
a good position on an elite team.

So he jumped back into the startup world and he's doing great. What he doesn't
have in recent social contacts he more than makes up for in fundamental
skills.

So, just a data point - it is possible to leave technology behind for a little
while without ill effects, especially if you have deeper skills. If you're
only good at the latest web framework du jour it's probably more of a gamble.

------
superk
I remember after the first tech bubble burst back around 2001 a lot of (young
/ male) disillusioned devs abondended the internets to become bike messengers
(although they returned to blog about it naturally). It was an awesome read -
if anyone remembers that and has some links please share. Some points I still
remember:

\- A lot less money (as mentioned here by a few).

\- A lot less coffee. Being really tired at the end of the day (but the good
tired after having felt as though they really worked). No more trouble
sleeping. Keeping normal hours.

\- Harder. Faster. Stronger. It is hard work, but it makes you hard.

\- Few regrets (that I recall).

It was a little Fight Club-y. And I don't think anyone looks to retire as a
bike messenger (probably get taken out by a taxi before then). But I'd be
curious to know how long the experiment lasted.

~~~
mdd
A Coder in Courierland: <http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/3/19/133129/548>

------
JangoSteve
I went in the opposite direction. I was an engineer, with a promising career
path, but became very disillusioned in the corporate [automotive] atmosphere,
and quit to work on my own projects as a developer. It was very daunting to up
and walk out on my experience and 2 degrees, but I think it was one of the
coolest things I've ever done with my life.

Now I have my own office with a huge window, my guitar and skateboard hanging
on the wall (they both get a lot of use throughout the day), and I make more
money on average (to my own surprise) than I did as a full-time engineer.

I wouldn't trade it for the world, and if I hadn't tried, I'd probably still
be sitting at my same miserable little desk in that same miserable little
cubicle, with the same slightly wacky boss.

DISCLAIMER: I had started down the entrepreneurial path a few years before I
quit and had spent every waking moment on my own companies on the side. I
wasn't making enough to quit when I did quit, but I had lined up a few months'
worth of contracting work, and figured that would be long enough for me to get
on my feet.

------
rdouble
I left programming in 2004-2005 to work at a skateboard company. I filmed and
edited videos and went skateboarding for a year. It was great. I also only
made $8000 the entire year, most of it from fixing the company's web site, so
I returned to programming.

~~~
tocomment
Did you have trouble returning? Was it hard finding jobs, getting interviews?
Did you have to take a pay cut when you returned?

~~~
rdouble
_Did you have trouble returning?_

No.

 _Was it hard finding jobs, getting interviews?_

No.

 _Did you have to take a pay cut when you returned?_

No.

~~~
exit
what kind of programming did you do?

~~~
rdouble
a bit of everything

~~~
exit
:\ really no focus? even something general like, "web development" (as opposed
to "game development", "financial software").

i'm curious because i wonder what fields it's easy to find work in again after
a year off.

~~~
rdouble
At the time it was python, databases, C, unix and java. A mixture of sys admin
and development for online medical records. Part of the reason I left was
because I found that I could not cope with how boring my job was. I do not
compartmentalize very well. When I returned, I worked for a place that made a
music player.

~~~
exit
cool. how did you find/end up at the "music player" company?

~~~
rdouble
I worked with some of the same guys earlier in my career. However, it really
was simple serendipity - they happened to be working down the street from
where I was living and I ran into them.

------
asimjalis
_Still want to code - I don't hate software, but my job has made me realize
that I'm really just a mediocre programmer with really good domain knowledge_

This makes me wonder if it is not programming that is the problem but the
environment and processes at your work place.

------
petercooper
_I don't hate software, but my job has made me realize that I'm really just a
mediocre programmer with really good domain knowledge_

You seem like a prime candidate for promotion to management or a more
analytical role. Is this a possibility or something you can work toward?

~~~
famfam
The irony of Peter Cooper advocating the Peter Principle is not lost on me.

~~~
gruseom
Funny, but not as funny as if it were true. PP is when you're competent and
get promoted to something you suck at; Peter's suggestion is the other way
around. Sorry to nitpick.

~~~
btilly
But isn't it true?

If someone is succeeding as a programmer, that says _nothing_ about how
they'll do as a manager. Therefore pushing for that promotion is a good way to
wind up getting promoted to something you such at. Which is the Peter
Principle at work.

~~~
gruseom
Are we failing on ambiguity here? If by "it" you mean "the peter principle",
then yes I think it's very true.

But here, by assumption, the programmer is _not_ competent (I doubt this is
so, but that was the context) and petercooper's suggestion -- a good one --
was to consider getting promoted into a perhaps _more_ suitable position.
That's the inverse of PP.

------
pingswept
I did the reverse-- I went from majoring in English and teaching high school
to embedded systems engineering.

It took a few things-- some aptitude for the field, a lot of determination,
some money for a master's degree (over the course of 3 years), and a friend
taking a chance on me with a summer internship. After about a year, it was
pretty clear that it was going to work. I think I could make a similar switch
again if I had the motivation.

It seems the major difference in your case is that you're not sure what you'd
rather do, while I had a strong desire for engineering. I would try to figure
out where you're headed before you start on the journey.

~~~
tkahn6
That's a pretty major change. Did you have any knowledge of embedded systems
beforehand? Why did you switch? Why not go engineering the first time around?

~~~
pingswept
I had approximately no knowledge of embedded systems beforehand. I did well in
math in high school and I played around with an Apple II and BASIC as a kid.
(Initially, I was just aiming at "engineering" as a broad field; it wasn't
until I got further into it that I focused on embedded stuff. My degree was in
mechanical engineering, but I took mostly EE classes.)

I switched because I discovered that I love designing and building things. I
still love teaching, and I wouldn't be surprised if I did it again.

Why didn't I study engineering the first time? That's a damn good question.
The English degree did give me the ability to write reasonably well, but other
than that, it was crap.

Mostly, it was just bad luck that I didn't end up in a technical field
initially. I went to a liberal arts college and took soul-crushing, thinking-
free chemistry and biology classes as a freshman-- that pretty much killed
science for me. It should have been obvious, but even as late as my junior
year in college, I didn't know that the field of electrical engineering
existed. It's kind of a sad story, looking back on it, but at least it ended
well.

------
csomar
You are having the same problem as mine, except for me I can't stand out to
live for a year alone ;)

Your problem is: You are bored from your current job. You have been working
for 5 years and it had become a monotonous job. You like coding but you hate
your work as a coder.

The solution that I found is: Build something -> Your own -> Not only coding
is involved -> unleash the sens of adventure

Take for example a SaaS service. You have to do the design, coding, deal with
databases, setup the servers and then test and launch the product. Next is
marketing, customer support, may be you'll try Google Adsense in the way,
start a blog to enlarge your audience, do some open source work to attract
related audiences, travel to x to promote your y to z....

You see? a SaaS (or uISV or any other crap really) will make your salary and
also your journey. Start in the side and launch in your vacation, support it
in the side until it supports you like your job does and leave. Don't spend
your savings as they can be helpful in though times.

You'll get motivation every time you sit at your day to day job desk and feel
really bored about it. This boredom (for me) will up lift your working power
gauge in the night.

Don't burn yourself, work for 1-2 hours per week-day and 10 hours week-end.
You can raise the number of hours, just make sure you enjoy your work. Make
light schedules and plans in a way your web/desktop development becomes like
an adventure journey. If you are bored read other unrelated-coding/related-
project stuff (think marketing, SEO, scaling, culture...)

I'm not sure if this is the correct answer, if so, let just your journey
begin!

Hope someday we meet in Dream Land, once each of us achieved his dreams.

~~~
mathgladiator
Problem with typical employee agreements.

 _Build something - > Your own_

is

Build something -> Company owns

------
DirtyAndy
Any leap into the unknown is very hard, but whatever you do, don't
procrastinate on it, the older you get the harder it gets - don't look back in
10 years and wish you'd made the move. Whilst I firmly believe if you really
want to do something you can do it at any time, it definitely gets harder as
you get older.

Try telling your wife and kids you are going to leave programming and the
money you make and start again on something else, it's possible yes, but
generally not so easy. Your "support group" of friends is much harder to leave
the longer you have had them around. And "aspirations" are generally slightly
harder to fulfil as you get older (trainee hairdresser at 25 OK, at 50 it
seems a bit weird).

Also don't assume that if you leave you wont be able to step back into it.
There is always a demand for good people and unless you are in an extremely
limited market you quite possibly will be able to step straight back into
where you are.

My wife and I (late 30's) are about to pack up our family and move countries
and I'm contemplating what I want to do when I get there so I'm kind of going
through the same thing.

------
mrj
I did:

<http://www.publicstatic.net/2009/01/sure-change-jobs/>

The biggest adjustment for me was money. I'd gotten so used to buying whatever
I wanted (not large things) that I had some money trouble early on.

But I'm back to programming now. I love it.

~~~
vinutheraj
It's a great story, inspiring even, why don't you do an HN post ?

~~~
mrj
Thanks! But it's an old post. :-)

I should probably clean it up, too. Some of the formatting got butchered in a
server move.

------
T_S_
Same story. Different direction.

Worked on Wall Street for almost 20 years. Did everything from quant finance
to selling bonds to managing technology project. Left in 2004 (yes, deferred
comp was left on the table), moved to Australia to study machine learning and
collected a doctorate. Started a biofuel company (long story).

Now, six years later, I'm founding a quant marketing startup. Net result: less
salary, more upside, more psychic benefits. Make sure your spouse is up for it
and they are willing to grow. If so, you'll be closer otherwise the inevitable
stresses may take their toll. Mine ended up getting an MFA and a new career of
her own.

Turns out my neighbor in Australia was a senior product developer at Microsoft
before he decided to move to an atoll in the Pacific and then get a biology
degree. He used to jokingly accuse me of copying him. (Typical Microsoftie.)

I think the bottom line is that mastery is not enough for some people. The
21st century midlife crisis cannot be cured with a new Porsche. You need
another mountain to climb.

------
earle
“Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support group for
that. It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar.”" -George Carlin

~~~
staunch
This is just a joke, I wouldn't take it seriously. Do you really think Carlin
hated _his_ job?

~~~
jimbokun
Yes, I bet there were times that he did. Especially before he was "George
Carlin, world famous comedian" and was just some guy trying to land enough
gigs to feed himself.

~~~
staunch
Maybe. It's just as possible he always loved being a comedian, even when it
was hard to find work. The point is that he found a job he loved. No one
should live under the assumption that everyone hates their job because of a
joke.

~~~
atiw
Really? From what I know about Carlin, he was onto comedy for at least >3
years before he started getting some attention. Before that it was just a job
that barely kept his expenses going. And I am pretty sure that was not the
kind of world we live in. Becoming famous enough took time back in his time.

I am pretty damn sure there must have been days he would have hated his "job"
as a comedian, because it didn't look like it was going anywhere. And
remember, this was the era when fighter pilots and airforce people were
considered the coolest ones, and he was kicked out before even completing his
Air Force enlistment.

So, I guess it would be safe to say, he had doubts about himself, and he was
trying to explore what he was meant to do. And I think we can agree, there
must have been days when he hated his "job" as a comedian, but just HAD to
keep going.

Just because you love your job, doesn't mean you are not going to hate/ don't
care about it anytime in future. I don't think Love/Hate are mutually
exclusive. At some point, there must be days when they occur intermittently.

~~~
prodigal_erik
Bill Hicks' later stage shows make it pretty clear that he hated the job, and
Carlin was about as cynical, so I could believe it.

------
lhorie
I'm going to make an analogy to love. In the beginning, you're attracted to
someone mostly because of looks. Then you get to know all the good things
(s)he has shared with you. Eventually, the passion flame wanes and you're now
able to see her/his ticks and vices. The flaws.

Getting into software development is similar. At first you get excited by your
first "hello world", then you find all sorts of cool things that can be done
with code. Eventually the passion flame wanes, you discover maintenance,
management. The boring stuff.

First, realize that pretty much everything you get into will follow this
pattern because everything has good and bad sides. Then ask yourself: are the
_bad_ things in filmmaking/SF start-ups more tolerable than the bad things in
your current situation? Are the good things in filmmaking/SF startu-ups more
enjoyable/rewarding than the good things you currently enjoy?

As far as happiness goes, maximize the amount of time you spend thinking about
the good parts of what you have. Write code for a hobby project, use your
money to indulge every once in a while. Dream about things you want to do.

Or just take the leap and do them. Then, you'll just have different good
things to focus on.

~~~
noname123
Your comment made me think in a different direction.

I had originally gotten in programming, as you said because of the excitement
of hacking, "hello world"; it was an intrinsic joy that I had that I derived
although extrinsic rewards (striking it rich) was in the back of my head. But
it wasn't the extrinsic demands that was driving me day-to-day, otherwise I
would have gone into accounting instead of programming.

But it was all of these extrinsic demands that pushed me to climb the
corporate ladder, deal with maintenance & management etc. In so doing, I was
telling myself that I had to plough through these minutiae to get to my big
external validation of climbing the ladder, becoming rich, etc - when in fact,
it was my intrinsic motivation that got me to where I was from the get-go. And
if getting to the and staying at the top means sacrificing the internal joy
for external validations, then it's not worth it.

I used to think that dropping your obligations to the ladder is
counterproductive to your career. But not anymore when I spend more
rationalizing and calming myself down from all of the angst of writing TPS
reports and posturing/covering my ass during meetings. I don't even have
anymore energy/time to actually write code. And that's pretty damn counter-
productive.

I always have taken a broad definition of hacking and I see this pattern
everywhere. You could see playing guitar as having fun creating music &
expressing yourself, or memorizing sets & rehearse & network to get your band
signed to a huge label. You could see making friends and picking up women as
having fun meeting people & expressing yourself, or memorizing sets & rehearse
& network to up your social worth, etc.

------
cake
Here on reddit :
[http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/c1rcu/iama_person_with...](http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/c1rcu/iama_person_with_a_cs_degree_that_decided_to_work/)

An ex Googler says he moved from CS to the lumbering industry ! Hope this
helps.

~~~
mathgladiator
On some days, when the nonsense of corporate drama (just like WoW, i swear)
crops up. I think: Ok, ok, lets just become a janitor/garbage man so the shit
that I have to deal with is up front; then spend my evenings working on OSS.

------
stcredzero
I was thinking of doing exactly this years ago. I sold my Infiniti, bought a
used station wagon that cost half as much, and was going to put my self
through massage school in Ohio with the proceeds.

A consulting job came up in Houston, and I've been "distracted" from this goal
ever since.

I am again unemployed, and I too have about a year's worth of float time. The
corporate world is pretty egregious at times. Human social dominance
mechanisms are necessary for regulating large organizations, but they
shouldn't be the primary focus of one's corporate existence. Unfortunately,
they are just that for most organizations.

------
Vivtek
Yeah, I did that. In the 2001 recession, after having mad money thrown at me
in the 90's, reality hit and I realized I'm really bad at time and scope
management. I spent a couple of years realizing this; in 2003 I decided to
focus on one of my clients, do all the programming I could on a particular
project to make it interesting to myself, and ended up qualifying for EIC.

In 2004 I got into technical translation, and by 2008 I'd built up the
clientele to make considerably more money at it than I ever did with contract
programming - plus no scope questions, no need to codify specifications and
requirements, no temptation to "drill down and do it right", no debugging, no
nothing - just give me a document, I count the words, I translate it, I bill
you, you pay me. Done.

I still code - there aren't many translators who can code their way out of a
paper bag, of course, so scripting skills come in handy. And I'm slowly
developing my own language/programming platform the way I want to. But when I
think of getting back into programming for pay, and realize that I suck at
programming management and thus would fail again? I stick with translation.

I wouldn't mind working with a technical startup as the coder. But at this
stage in my life I'm too risk-averse (kids, orthodontia, college coming up) to
risk much on a roll of the startup dice, so I wouldn't be able to devote the
focus to it that it would require. But there's no way I'd go back to just
slinging code for hourly wages.

------
Random_Person
I wrote code for the military for 3 years after high school. Writing code for
a living took what was my most enjoyable hobby at the time and turned it into
a chore. I lost all of my love for it.

So, I abandoned code and became an automotive mechanic. That's a fucking leap,
let me tell you. Seven years later, my body was wrecked from arthritis I
picked up in the Marines, so I got out of the automotive industry (a job I
loved) floated for about 6 months then jumped into IT.

I manned a small computer repair store for a year, worked on some art and such
then landed a network admin/tech job for the State. Now, here I am, back at
computing every day and wishing I still remembered how to code.

I've now put my mind to learning Python and Java and leaving the VB of old
behind--

\--but, just the other day I discovered an old application I started in VB5
that got quite close to what I wanted it to do, but not quite. This code is
now 10 years old, so I figured SOMEONE wrote it by now. I scoured the web and
did not find anything like it. So, now I have an itching to go back through my
old code and attempt it all over again. _sigh_

~~~
prpon
If you can, rewrite the application using Python/Java that u are learning
(Ruby, if you want to catch up). May be you can refine the idea and do a
better job now. I admire your path. Goodluck and keep us posted on your
progress.

~~~
Random_Person
I have thought about trying to re-write it. I obviously do not know much about
programming anymore, but this would be a very Windows specific application--
it needs to track files and execute when they are accessed. I'm not sure if
that is an option in Java or Python. I've got quite a long time to go before I
am up to speed with where I was 9 years ago.

I have pondered writing a blog about it all-- my return to programming, some
life hacking stuff and an online comic idea I'd like to launch soon-- but I
have always assumed that as a relative nobody, I'd be wasting my time since it
would be unlikely that anyone would read it. Maybe I'm being too realist,
maybe I just need to do it and fight for subscribers. Maybe I'm just being
lazy or afraid of disappointment.

~~~
prpon
File access and monitoring is possible in Java. Using Java will make your app
OS independent though. I am not a Python person but I am sure it is possible.
It all depends on how much stuff you want to take on, getting back into
Programming.

Regarding 'no body cares for my stuff', we all have our traps. Mine is, moving
onto the next interesting project. May be there is merit to just doing it.
Finishing something, putting something out there and let it do its thing.

------
MetalEvangelist
I sympathize with you. I'm in a similar situation. I've been maintaining CRUD
PowerBuilder apps for almost a decade now and I can't stand it anymore. (I'm
using "CRUD" as both an acronym and a word.) My current job is soul-killing
and makes me want to gouge my eyes out. I'd like to stay in programming, but
do something cutting-edge--the complete opposite of the unchallenging legacy
programming I'm doing now. I'm in a more difficult situation in that I have a
family and lots of expenses, and I imagine switching from being a senior
legacy programmer to being a junior programmer in something more cutting-edge
would involve a decrease in pay.

If you can afford to be unemployed for a year, that's fantastic! Maybe use
that time to learn something cool or work on a fun programming project, to
rejuvenate your passion for software development.

------
cageface
I've been in the same job for nine years now. Great people, great company, an
excellent salary, but it's just gotten old. The work has become repetitive and
the big problems have been solved.

So I'm leaving to take a bit of time off and hack on projects of my own. I
don't intend to leave programming but I might try and find a new problem
domain to work in.

I had an epiphany about this last month: you can't compartmentalize your life.
It doesn't work to build your life around a job that bores you - work is too
fundamental.

~~~
lemming
I'm in a similar situation - great salary, great people, not so enthused about
the company or the work any more. I'm starting to seriously consider taking a
sabbatical of some kind too, good luck with yours!

I know a lot of people who can be very happy without caring too much about
their job, but that's not the case for me (or you, by the sounds of it).

------
tom_b
Not seriously. I like coding. But when I don't get to do it . . . I go a
little nuts and have had thoughts about just getting out. This is usually
related to poor working environment fit for my personality and personal goals.
I think it is common, particular for corporate devs, to struggle with these
types of feelings.

I have, by accident and plan (lack of knowing the effects), wound up in a
similar place to what you describe. More directly, I have developed a
marketable, but big corporate-focused skill set (RDBMS, Oracle, MS SQL Server,
DB2 . . . ).

This is OK for now, it works for my geographic region, my family, and so far
has been low-risk from the "I have a well paying job" perspective, but is
completely unsatisfying career-wise from a challenging growth perspective.
I've recently turned down one much higher-paying job than I have now and am
struggling with a similar decision at this point for another job. My main fear
is that the new offer represents "more of the same" and this website, PG's
essays, and a number of other sources have poisoned me forever against living
in my safe corporate cube in happiness.

Not that this will help how you feel much, but having really good domain
knowledge probably has the effect of making you much more valuable than just a
"mediocre programmer." Think about those guys that got YC funding, they were
_teaching themselves to program_ to implement their idea (can't remember the
group, Jessica mentioned them in a Mixergy interview). It's not like they were
super-hackers at that point or anything.

If I had your flexibility to quit and move, I'd try to hook up with one of the
startups that float around this forum. I read a number of comments that make
me think many of them are small with smart people who want hackers looking to
push themselves hard and build stuff in a fun way. Could be fun, sounds like
you don't need to make much in the way of money, maybe you can just sleep on
the floor at the apt office.

------
aaco
_"... but anyone ever leave the software world to do something unrelated?"_

Yes, however I don't know how large the number of people who leave programming
related jobs is. It would be interesting to know some numbers about this
topic.

Anyway, I don't think these numbers really matter for your decision. What
matters is how you feel about that. I think the best thing you can do is
talking to people who were in a similar situation before deciding what you're
going to do next.

Some time ago I posted a quite interesting story here on HN of a game
programmer at Electronic Arts who left his job to be a coffee farmer:

<http://www.konaearth.com/Life/2006/060430/>

Worth taking a look.

------
tmsh
All I know is: 'be wary of releasing changes on Fridays' probably applies to
life too.

------
kls
I did, I got so burnt out (see other posts in my profile) that I left. I
started a Hardwood flooring business. It was the only way to keep my earnings
close to where I was at, at the time. While I loved doing the work, it was a
disaster. I had people that would not show up for work, customers that did not
like the look of certain boards. Anyway, I came to see that I just traded
problem sets and quickly went back to development. Some people get out and are
real happy with doing so, for me I took drastic measures for a problem that
was simple to resolve. Unfortunatly, it took reflecting back for me to see it.

------
Marticus
I understand how you feel - I'm going through this right now in fact.

Firstly, I agree with edw519 - Don't think you're bad at what you do because
someone may know more, or you just feel that you don't know enough. You can
always learn more, but (as is my problem) motivating yourself to learn
programming if you don't like programming at the moment is an exercise in
futility, and could cause burn-out.

My advice would be to look into industries that sound interesting. Chances are
you know a little (or a lot) about quite a few different things /
technologies, and that can actually get you quite far in an interview process,
especially if you are passionate about it and are willing to learn whatever it
takes to be good at it. It's surprising how few people actually "care" in an
interview, and from both conducting interviews and being the one interviewed,
I've seen a LOT of lackluster applicants. But the passionate ones definitely
stand out. And if that is already a topic that you are fascinated by, it
becomes very obvious.

Look around, be patient, and try learning about anything and everything that
may be interesting on the side.

------
yamas
I develope software for 18 years now and left my job 6 years ago when I
realized that working the whole day on shitty projects sucks too much.
According to Nietzsche, 2/3 of my day wasn't disposable and that made me a
slave - regardless of my profession. Today i live with few money, a friend
supports me, but the day is mine. Software Development is fun again.

------
binarymax
I was in your shoes 3 years ago. I thought I would leave software dev entirely
if I ever left the company I was working for. Turns out I only hated the
company I worked for and loved software dev - went out on my own contracting
for several years then recently signed with a fantastic company.

------
acangiano
My suggestion: keep your job and work hard to become a better programmer in
your spare time. Pick a side project that interests you. When the golden
handcuffs come off, get the money, and move to SF to join or start a startup.
You'll have more funds and be a better developer because of it.

------
deco
I've left the software (well, web) world multiple times under different
circumstances. I don't regret any of my hiatuses. Taking detours off your
career path gives you a unique experience, a new perspective, and broadens
your skill set beyond what you're usually able to pick up in a single
industry. The cross-discipline experience (in my case, music vs technology)
I've gained is priceless to me on both a personal and professional level and
I'm very happy with the decisions I made. Go ahead and veer off the beaten
path while you're young, it's only going to get harder the longer you wait.
The financial ramifications of my decisions have not set me back very much, if
at all, and what I may have lost in money I've more than made up for in lived
experiences.

------
evo_9
The thing I always keep in mind on stuff like this if often times when you
take something you love to do and turn it into a career (versus a fun hobby),
it seems to takes something away from it.

I think you'd find that to be the case in film-making. I actually studied
film-making in college and decided not to pursue it because I had a bad
feeling I wasn't going to be the next david lynch, and therefore the reality
was I'd be shooting wedding videos for the rest of my life.

I decided it's better to have a career doing something interesting that pays
well and pursue my hobbies like making music, or film-making for fun; if they
grow beyond fun, great, then I could maybe take steps to make a career of it
(aka, perhaps I AM the next david lynch after all...).

------
anonymousDan
Go back and do a PhD?

+'s -

    
    
       When you finish, you should be pretty marketable
       Pick up a whole new set of research skills
       Support group shouldn't be a problem in a university environment
       Potential for coding if you want to.
       Someone with industry experience will tend to have
       a good idea of what will work in reality
    

-'s
    
    
       You will take a hit money wise until you qualify
    

You could perhaps look at doing a masters as an intermediate step?

~~~
dRother
Are there attractive, single members of the opposite sex involved with this?
If so, just let me know which colleges I should apply to.

~~~
hugh3
Depends what you do your PhD in.

Biology probably has the best balance between "attractive" and "sane" you're
going to find.

------
JoeAltmaier
Two friends, both developers. One started a video store with his family.
Upside, lots of time with the family instead of in a cube. Downside: unstable
market, lots of ups and downs.

Other guy started a falafel joint. Never seen a guy look so happy, healthy,
totally mellow. Was a developer/manager then VP Software Engineering; now is
Dad, cool boss for college students (has record for employee retention in a
college town) and Husband he couldn't be before.

------
brandoneggar
I've been a programmer for over 10 years now. Back in 2002 I switched careers
and became a deputy sheriff. I did it for 3 years before realizing that I had
it pretty good in the software industry. I've been back programming now for
the last 5 years and have never looked back. With that said, I just finished
reading the 4 hour workweek book and am seriously considering taking my family
on a 6 month travel adventure.

------
johnohara
I once knew a guy that sold big iron mainframes for a living before walking
away to be a tile contractor/installer.

After telling him about some new system I was working on he responded by
saying, "Yeah, that's great. But that's all they'll ever do is get smaller and
faster. Where's the satisfaction in that?"

I'm told he did pretty well during the housing boom.

------
16s
Stay in the industry, just stop coding 100% of the time. Project mgt, IT mgt,
focus on security, scalability (or other hot topics that really interest _you_
) and code some on the side. Too much coding will kill your love for it. You
need balance.

------
kevinskii
Could you please clarify what exactly is making you unhappy in your current
career? True, software engineering ain't for everyone, but you say that you
like coding and you're getting paid well. I'm not sure why you "really can't
take it anymore."

------
powrtoch
What about it can you "not take anymore"?

If the money's good and you're miserable anyway,the money isn't doing what it
promised. Move to SF and join a startup sounds like a good way to inject some
excitement. But that goes back to my original question.

~~~
brosephius
[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/129508/when-did-you-
know-...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/129508/when-did-you-know-it-was-
time-to-leave-your-job)

see the top-rated answer. on top of that, I'm basically not fulfilling my
dreams, and I'm sort of preemptively feeling intense regret about my life. but
I'm also preemptively regretting making that drastic change and having it
ultimately fail me also. I guess I desperately want change, but perversely
also deeply fear change.

------
edo
1\. What do you want to do most, what are you passionate about?

2\. Do that thing, no matter what.

~~~
thejash
To second this, my martial arts instructor used to be a developer, and quit to
start doing physical therapy. He loves it and is 100% glad that he changed.

So, just do what you're passionate about, and it will work out. Nothing beats
doing what you love 8 hours per day.

------
minus1
_I'm really just a mediocre programmer with really good domain knowledge_

I know the feeling. I've struggled with this. Here's the conclusion I've come
to: you don't need to be a great programmer to make great products.

~~~
minus1
And I'm assuming that your definition of mediocre is actually "not as good as
my idols". This seems common on HN. I've always been a top performer among my
coworkers, but it's easy to ignore this and compare yourself only to those
most successful.

------
jacquesm
I've quit once for three full years doing nothing but physical work. Moving
bits around on a disk is a great way to make money but to build something
physical has a lot of satisfaction as well.

~~~
mathgladiator
And it is great exercise for sure, I've been tempted to work at Denny's part
time to get paid-exercise. I've also considered construction.

------
sblom
I knew a guy at Microsoft who got sick of his dev job and moved to Las Vegas
to be a police officer. From what I hear, he's having a ton of fun, but I'm
not sure it's less stressful. :)

------
froo
Hey, email me (email is in my profile) ... I've experienced the same kind of
thing and have a few of the same ambitions and came up with a solution,
perhaps it could work for you too.

------
dRother
NO, I did the opposite. I had a successful, promising career dong something
totally unrelated, and decided I'd had enough and it was time to do something
new. Now I'm a software dev.

------
pizzaman
isn't that the case with most jobs. At first it was fun or even just a hobby,
but when you have to do it for a living it's not the same anymore.

Hobby > Study > Work > ugh...

------
dutchrapley
Listen to the interview with Tobi from Shopify on Mixergy.com

------
ergo98
This seems like the wrong place to be asking that. It's like asking who has
left the medical business in the doctor's lounge.

~~~
brosephius
I know, but I figured the odds were good someone around here used to be a
professional programmer, and is now doing something completely different, but
still a hobbyist and HN enthusiast. I could be wrong.

~~~
Vivtek
Existence proof: me.

------
moonpolysoft
Last I heard one of the original HBase guys quit programming altogether and
went into plumbing.

