
Classism in America - traverseda
http://siderea.livejournal.com/1260265.html?format=light
======
JPKab
Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is
something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't
matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software
engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's
biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable.

The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers have
no idea where I'm from until they ask me. They'll overhear me on the phone
talking to my family, and notice that I speak in an entirely different manner.
It's not a conscious thing on my part, but I sometimes feel very awkward about
it. At times, I'm very upset by the fact that someone who grows up in a
particular part of the country gets to speak in their native dialect at work
without judgement, all because of stereotypes about intelligence and
education, which essentially tie directly to the author's point about class.

~~~
zeveb
It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything
rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite
loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think
Southerners are &c.

It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as
one can be stupid with another.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Exactly. As a southerner, I have an accent, but I also don't answer important
questions fast. IOW, I pause a beat to collect my thoughts. People tend to
think this too is a sign of "stupid". Really, it's just I don't like to be
wrong. I'd rather be slow up front and be right, than fast up front and be
wrong. However, our development culture tends to think everything needs to
happen as fast as possible (the whole twitter in a weekend meme).

~~~
hkmurakami
>IOW, I pause a beat to collect my thoughts. People tend to think this too is
a sign of "stupid". Really, it's just I don't like to be wrong. I'd rather be
slow up front and be right, than fast up front and be wrong.

I'm really glad to hear that I'm not alone with this struggle. Still don't
have a good answer for it though. :(

~~~
alatkins
Just give it a bit longer... :-P

------
henrikschroder
Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class
in the US was about money. To me, the separation of economic class and social
class is clearer than to the average American.

But, the same rules of "invisibility" apply where I'm from. Whenever I've
talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong
to, they are _completely_ clueless. They don't know they belong to it, they
don't know others don't, and they completely subscribe to the "we're all just
regular middle class" mentality. The friends I have from other classes, or who
have also made class journeys, are _much_ more in tune, they have no problems
seeing class and classism.

One thing that was very illuminating to me in this article was the notion of
class as culture, and class as _performance_.

> It is a common misconception that the primary obstacle to being in a much
> higher class is money to afford the things by which one performs that class.
> The limiting factor is not money, it is this: it is impossible to join a
> culture the ways of which you know nothing. You may come by money, but the
> ignorance of how to use it to perform that higher class will keep you out as
> adamantly as if there were a wall built around it.

Holy crap. Yes. A thousand times yes.

~~~
arcanus
> Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of
> class in the US was about money.

The subtle differences between the USA and Europe on this subject are quite
interesting. Another one is that in the USA, being branded as 'upper class' is
pejorative and instantly implies you are rich, spoiled and not likely to be a
hard worker, if you work at all.

~~~
henrikschroder
> being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative

That's also fascinating, because in the US, _wanting_ to be rich is seen as a
very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and
improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious.

And where I'm from, wanting to be rich is seen as an ugly thing, the only
socially acceptable ways to _be_ rich is to win the lottery or be a sports
champion. Then it's perfectly fine, but should you actually _earn_ your money
then that's automatically suspect and you're labelled a Bad Person.

I have friends who are in the IT industry, making good money, and who are
genuinely _ashamed_ of how much money they make.

~~~
WalterBright
> and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make.

Are you sure that isn't an act? People pretend socially acceptable emotions
all the time.

If they donated the excess to the IRS (the IRS accepts donations!), I'd be a
bit less skeptical.

~~~
lagadu
> Are you sure that isn't an act?

It isn't. I'm from a economically below-average country in Europe, have lived
in a couple others and I've settled down in the north. Almost none of my
friends (particularly back home but here too) know how much I make because
it's genuinely embarrassing. It's something of a "why do I make so much more
when I'm no better than anyone else here?" feeling.

Also I know it's not just me, I see it around me from other people in both
countries; the only people I've ever talked about it with was with other
friends I know earn similarly to due to similar circumstances at the time.

edit: now that I think about it, while talking about earning a lot is
generally shameful, discussing buying expensive things doesn't elicit the same
feeling, despite being effectively the same.

~~~
mdpopescu
Interesting! Thanks, this clarifies something for me - my wife is mortified
because I freely discuss my income with anyone who asks, and it's way higher
than the average. She considers it "bragging" and, as you say, embarrassing. I
always thought I was showing friends / relatives / acquaintances that getting
a lot more money is possible with not much effort - I work from home and don't
have a degree.

Anyway - it's interesting to think of this mentality as part of "European
culture".

~~~
lagadu
Yes that's it: it always feels like bragging.

------
PaulHoule
Social class is astonishingly multidimensional as pointed out in the works of
C. Wright Mills (Power Elite), Paul Fussel (Class), Tom Wolfe (The Pump House
Gang), etc.

In my extended family there are no college professors, but a lot of cops, even
a lot of women that are cops. (There are some accountants, but they are
forensic accountants ;-)

When I get stopped by the cops I don't worry, they like my attitude, they will
tell me that people don't like speeding in their residential neighborhood and
to them I look more like a guy who doesn't like speeding in my residential
neighborhood and not the kind of guy who likes to play _Initial D_ in
residential neighborhoods.

Sometimes I've been a bystander when it looked like the cops showed up to
arrest the first black person they saw, or when 15 police vehicles show up to
arrest some black guy as thin as a rail and I even have a friend who grew up
in a much richer family than me who had a bad attitude towards the police and
has had his ass kicked, etc. Somehow though, even though I am not a cop and I
don't particularly see things the way cops do, I've somehow absorbed enough
protective coloration that I have a lot of "privilege" in this area, and less
in some other areas.

~~~
B1FF_PSUVM
> Paul Fussel (Class)

> family there are no college professors,

Fussel's Class was sort of OK, but then he went on a wish-fulfillment tripe
dump, whereupon he wished college professors like himself to be above it all.

Hardy har har, sure, sure ...

~~~
PaulHoule
Class is probably Fussel's hardest book to rip up. Look at _Muscle_ , the book
he ghost wrote for his son to find out what he really thinks.

To be fair when a graduate student I knew had an absentee PhD supervisor and a
nervous breakdown and tried the "experiment" of not showing up for work and
seeing how long it took for the paychecks to stop, the "experiment" strung on
for most of a year until his dad realized he had no idea how to get in touch
with his son, called up the department, and they called me up.

He had managed department failing department stores for decades and he thought
our college town was a "dump" because it didn't have a Nordstrom's.

The social position of the college professor has changed a lot since Fussel's
generation. Up until 1970 or so it was a path of upward social mobility, but a
slowdown of tenure track hiring, social changes that doubled the number of
professor's kids that could be recruited (counterbalanced enough by massive
imports of male graduate students from hyperpatriarchical cultures to not
threaten feminoid narriatives) mean it is no longer a path to social mobility,
unless you mean trading a life of baking cookies at an organic cafe 9-5 to
working 80 hours a week at 5 different colleges spread out over 200 miles
while eating off food stamps...

------
rm_-rf_slash
Geography plays a huge role in determining social classes and the perceptions
of them. It also influences spending habits.[1]

In New York, for example, it has been shown that people across the income
spectrum there will pay more than the national average for shoes and watches.
New York is very wealthy and urban, so you are always walking and being seen
in your shoes (and checking the time) and it confers a sense of class. The
more people think about the quality of their footwear, the more they will be
concerned with keeping up appearances. Even poor New Yorkers spend a higher
part of their income on shoes than most poor Americans.

Contrast this with, say, San Francisco. The shaggy-looking dude in jeans and a
Hard Rock Cafe t-shirt could be a multimillionaire, you'd never know. But it
is more likely than not that the given individual is physically fit. It's
always bikini season in California, whereas New York's long and snowy winters
allow for big meals and bigger coats. The more fit people you encounter, the
more you will be concerned with your and other's fitness, because it is more
readily on your mind. ("It's warm and sunny all year round and you don't even
jog or bike? Get off your ass."). Consequently, the Bay Area sees a
disproportionate amount of income spent on health clubs.

[1] The New York Times had an excellent Op-Ed from a few years back, called:
"What People Buy Where"
[http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/14/opinion/sunday/what-
peo...](http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/14/opinion/sunday/what-people-buy-
where.html?referer=&_r=0)

~~~
biztos
Well, in San Francisco it's actually _never_ bikini season, but otherwise this
makes sense.

~~~
rm_-rf_slash
San Francisco doesn't have bikini season, it has bikini hours: 10:30AM to 4PM.
The other time is reserved for hoodies.

~~~
HalcyonicStorm
I like the way you think

------
nibs
There has always been, and always will be, class in a society of people. Even
among "progressive" societies like coastal North American cities, classism
exists. It may be seperating people based on what level of educational
attainment you have, or even how politically correct you act around peers (the
more the better...?), but it will exist no matter what.

Status was once (and perhaps still is) a useful metric for the level of
contribution someone offered a community - doctors, lawyers and others like
them get status because status is what a community could use in lieu of
payment as a means of expressing gratitude for the useful service the person
provides. We attribute status to athletes, musicians, companies and others for
the same reason - they give us something we want.

In order to feel like one belongs you must have acceptance from your
community, be it a street gang or a country club. One of the most critical
dimensions of the character of a person is how you treat someone that you do
not have to treat well.

So we should use our progressive monocultural aspirations for good (treat
people fairly and as they want to be treated) instead of just talking about
how much you want to save the world while you reject people who have a lesser
degree than you.

------
dataker
I live in South America and classes here are, similar to Europe, not really
tied to your money.

It's really funny: I grew up in a slum, but software now gives me as much
money as politicians and senior executives of public companies.

In my first paying contract overseas, I went to the most expensive restaurant
in my town.

Although I wore the same clothes and belonged to the same race, everybody was
staring at me. The waitress would always reiterate the price of meals.

I actually felt pretty good.

~~~
leoc
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcrZIK3gqbU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcrZIK3gqbU)
;)

------
WalterBright
I once went out to lunch at a modest restaurant with a couple friends, one
from a wealthy eastern family and one from poverty. The former was dressed
like a slob, the latter in a nice suit.

I was fascinated how the former exuded class in how he comfortably dealt with
the waiter and the wine list, etc., while the latter clearly was desperately
trying to do that and failing.

The difference was apparent even in how they walked and sat.

~~~
CPLX
The Wire, which of course is an absolutely excellent longform meditation on
class, has a couple really great scenes illustrating this exact thing:

[http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xhhJVYK4nvQ](http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xhhJVYK4nvQ)
[http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WmGemNT7urY](http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WmGemNT7urY)

~~~
WalterBright
For other good (albeit fictional) accounts of social class, there's "Gone With
The Wind's" treatment of Rhett Butler by southern society, and "The Blue
Max's" treatment of Bruno Stachel who rises from being an innkeeper's son to a
role formerly reserved only for the nobility. (Neither is about money, but
manners and behavior.)

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
UK class is all about manners. _And_ money.

The upper classes are effortlessly sociable, polished, and polite, even if
they think you're an idiot - unless you're the help, in which case they
aren't.

There are some subtle markers you can only learn either by being born into
them or being told about them.

E.g. when middle class are introduced they say "Pleased to meet you."

When upper class people meet they say "How d'you do?" \- and if someone says
"Pleased to meet you, they immediately know they're not dealing with one of
their own."

I spent some time on the edges of the upper class scene, and the polish often
hides drama and resentment - possibly because public school in the UK can
sometimes seem to be a bizarre form of institutionalised child abuse.

It's hard to imagine someone who's set to inherit a gigantic country mansion
feeling that life has given them a raw deal, but I've seen it happen.

There's also an almost complete absence of passionate creativity. I've seen
working class kids (almost literally) kill to become musicians or artists. The
upper classes sometimes drift into it, but the work is often derivative and
shallow, and doesn't have the kick it has when someone has had to struggle.

------
jqm
I have a friend I grew up with in Florida that for some reason developed an
extremely thick southern accent (I didn't).

He never finished college but started a machining company making parts for the
food industry and has done very well making many times the money I have. He is
a reasonably smart guy but most people wouldn't guess it talking to him. He
sounds like he stepped directly out of the "Deliverance" movie. I didn't
realize how bad it was until I saw him a year or two ago and even though he
hasn't lived in the south in years, I swear his accent has gotten worse.

Obviously this would be a huge negative in certain professions in certain
locations. But it certainly hasn't prevented him from succeeding. In fact, my
theory is that it has helped and this is why the accent has gotten stronger.

His employees are mostly machinist/welder types. No way to say sissy to those
guys more than speaking properly without accent. So maybe it give his some
credibility with that crowd. He also does high dollar contracts for major
companies. I bet more than a few times he has been sized up as "dumb hick we
are going to take advantage of" and been severely underestimated in negations.
Point being, in some times and places appearing a dumb hick might get one
further than talking smart. Not in the software industry in California
necessarily. There appearing smart might be more important than actually being
smart:)

------
llull
The truth of the essay is illustrated by studies that show lower social
mobility over longer generational windows, i.e. ones grandfather's income
quintile is a better predictor of ones owns than ones fathers's. The
intangible cultural inheritance of social class is more lasting than
fluctuations in material wealth.

~~~
morgante
Do you have links to those studies?

I've always found the reflexivity of class to be somewhat interesting.
Economically, my family is in the bottom quartile of the country—but it never
felt like that. They definitely raised me with "upper class" values and
attitudes. (For example, there was never even a shadow of a doubt about
whether I'd attend college.) My grandparents, on the other hand, were quite
well off.

As such, I've always felt more comfortable and fit in with people whose
families have incomes vastly exceeding my family's.

------
kbenson
I haven't finished the article yet, but one thing that strikes me is the
flamboyant use of vocabulary. Given the topic, I'm not sure whether it's just
a peculiarity of the author, an attempt to tailor the reception of the piece
with regard to specific audiences, a slight trolling or the reader, or a
combination thereof.

For example, early on we get "impecunious" and "shibboleths", followed up
shortly afterwards with "booboo" (!). I find it distracting, to the point that
I've lost the main thread of the article and I'm now wondering what the author
was trying to accomplish with this style, if anything.

I often find myself switching to a different form of conversing when debating
here, but I would like to think that's because I'm trying to be precise, and
so I switch to a more precise method of expression. Sometimes that makes it
into my speech, for example when I'm trying to explain or diagnose a problem.
It can be detrimental to communication if leaned on too heavily though.

~~~
nkurz
You ask in another comment whether you are oblivious. Playfully, I respond
"Yes, you are oblivious".

Using "shibboleth" as a shibboleth is itself a shibboleth. She's declaring her
_bona fides_ (gratuitous Latin is also a shibboleth, especially if highlighted
with italics) as a scholar by demonstrating her ability to use an obscure term
correctly, and is being gracious to her audience by assuming their
comprehension. Switching to "booboo" is intentional, showing consciousness of
register.

My background is somewhat similar to hers, although without the parental
guidance. Perhaps as a result, my acculturation was less successful. I think
this is a brilliant article, and (having read and enjoyed many of your other
comments on this site) I encourage you start from the assumption that the
author is fully conscious of the tone of this piece.

~~~
skrjabin
The author is obviously self-aware and this is precisely what makes it
frustrating. Nearly every point is obfuscated through ornamentation, or broken
up into parenthetical statements like a jigsaw puzzle. The entire article
could be summarized in a concise paragraph with minimal loss of meaning. It's
just pretension.

~~~
kough
This writing style is itself a performance of Rationalist culture. Read
anything by The Last Psychiatrist or Scott Alexander or Eliezer Yudkowsky for
comparison.

~~~
jholman
You think The Last Psychiatrist is performing Rationalist culture? I hadn't
noticed such a relationship, and at a moment's consideration I still don't
notice it, and if you really do think that, I'd appreciate any evidence you
can point me to.

~~~
kough
I do think so; hard to prove if reading the content isn't argument enough. One
fact is that TLP is the third link on the left-hand blog roll on SSC's
website, so there's at least a one-way relationship. Anecdotally I remember
reading something by Scott Alexander that mentioned that TLP was part of the
LW community at one point, but I can't back this up with links.

------
apalmer
Article raises an interesting point... I think the divide is valid between
social class and economic class, however i will say it is much more fluid in
US than in most other countries both developed countries like UK and
developing countries like say India. I think the reason is because to the US
point of view the ultimate social goal is financial success.

Next interesting point, I think a lot of the outrage with Donald Trump from
within the republican party is he is projecting 'lower' class based signifiers
and in effect turning power from the 'upper' class republicans to the 'lower'
class republicans.

~~~
learc83
George W. Bush played up the good ole boy from Texas image. Even though he was
from a wealthy East Coast family and went to Yale.

He was definitely trying to project an image of being from a lower social
class, and he played to issues that lower social classes were more likely to
support.

~~~
brational
But the difference is that he still did whatever the wealthy republicans
wanted too.

------
zeveb
Very interesting thought, that colleges' purpose is to acculturate one into a
certain culture. That would explain why collegiate athletics are so important:
because people of a particular college's culture place importance on chasing
after balls on grassy fields, it's important for colleges to acculturate their
students to watching people chase after balls on grassy fields. I'm not saying
that sarcastically — as much as I personally have never understood the point
collegiate athletics, it makes a lot of sense in this context.

I take issue with her desire to leave race out of the discussion. That's
precisely the problem with race in America: race is a decent first-order
approximation of class, with all the bad that entails. If we could address
that head-on, if people didn't automatically assume that others of the same
race are 'like them' and others of a different race are 'unlike them,' _and
not have those things be true_ , then racism would be a thing of the past —
or, at least, no worse than the silliness one sees about redheads/gingers. The
colour of one's skin has no more effect on one's worth as a human being than
the colour of one's hair: the day that it's seen as no more important is the
day racism is dead. But as long as race and class are conflated, that day
won't come.

> The ban on smoking in restaurants – which, let me be clear, I am wildly in
> favor of, being someone who can't patronize a business with cigarette
> smoking in it

Can't? Given that tobacco smoke contains no allergens, methinks the mot juste
would be 'won't.'

> I empathize when social classes not mine find themselves on the short end of
> the stick, such as in the above account of smoking regulations, but that
> doesn't mean I'd do anything to change that outcome. Like, "Wow, it must
> suck to have your class' norms so disrespected by a change in the law like
> that. Welp, I'm off to buy a burger in this now refreshingly smoke-free
> burger joint, and discuss with my class-peers how else we can change public
> policy to make it more support my class' norms – even, if necessary, at your
> class' norms' expense."

What was wrong with the previous policy, which meant that some places catered
to the author's class and some places catered to other classes?

~~~
SudoNhim
> That's precisely the problem with race in America: race is a decent first-
> order approximation of class, with all the bad that entails.

Not really. I mean in my state (WA), 48% of people below the poverty line are
white, 18% are hispanic, 14% are asian, 14% are black. Sure some
approximations of some classes are heavily involved with race, but if you're
discussing class dynamics in general race isn't a necessary distinction.

> If we could address that head-on, if people didn't automatically assume that
> others of the same race are 'like them' and others of a different race are
> 'unlike them,' and not have those things be true, then racism would be a
> thing of the past...

Except that humans can't ignore race. The feel-good stories we tell each other
about how we are naturally colorblind and taught to be racist, about how
racism is an unnatural malignant artifact in our culture, are just that;
stories. In reality children will show a strong preference for members of
their own race by age 3, and it's not something we can just disappear.

~~~
IkmoIkmo
> I mean in my state (WA), 48% of people below the poverty line are white, 18%
> are hispanic, 14% are asian, 14% are black.

You may just be getting numbers back based on the ethnicity that predominantly
lives in your state.

Look at relative poverty numbers. i.e., of the number of people who are of
ethnicity X, how many are poor? I think you'll surely find a correlation that
OP describes as a decent first-order approximation.

For example: white 9%, hispanic 18%, black 37%. That's 2x and 4x more likely
to be poor vs white depending on if you're hispanic or black.

[0] [http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-
raceeth...](http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-
raceethnicity/)

~~~
SudoNhim
Right, there will be a correlation, but that's not the point. The point is
that class as a concept exists very much outside of race.

You can easily read the essay pretending that everybody in the US who isn't
white simply doesn't exist, and it still makes completes sense.

------
Animats
From the article: _" Most people are very ignorant of the norms and values of
the social classes more than one degree above or below their own."_ Somewhere,
there must be a "how to" guide for social class. There's a questionnaire, but
other than some meaningless content on Quora, not much guidance.[1]

Where there is guidance, it's about language usage.[2] The classic on this
being, of course, "My Fair Lady"[1]. This is less of an issue since TV and
movies imposed a standard linguistic dialect.

The author likes Paul Fussell's "Class", which is an excellent read. It's
quite funny.

Social class is less social than it used to be, and more marketed. As a horse
owner, I've seen this change since the 1980s. In the 1980s, it would have been
considered tacky to have advertising at a horse show. Now, Rolex ads are all
over the place. Polo is the classic upper class sport (Silicon Valley has
three polo fields), but polo players are usually people who were football
jocks in high school, but not college.

Well into the 1980s, regular customers could sign their register receipts at
Roberts of Woodside (a supermarket with an excellent deli) and be billed
monthly.

[1]
[http://www.asanet.org/introtosociology/Documents/Hidden%20Ru...](http://www.asanet.org/introtosociology/Documents/Hidden%20Rules%20of%20Social%20Class.htm)
[2]
[http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010...](http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=pwpl)
[3]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhninL_G3Fg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhninL_G3Fg)

~~~
kazinator
If you're ignorant of the norms and values of the social classes more one
degree below you, that's simply due to not watching television.

~~~
clock_tower
And not watching television is a very upper-class thing to do...

------
lemoncucumber
LiveJournal is so low class, the author should've picked a nice middle-class
platform like Medium to publish this </s>

~~~
notlisted
Funny, to me it was an indicator of her age (ie when she started using the
Internet). I have the same reaction to articles on blogger. I associate Medium
with minimalist know-it-all bearded fixie hipster programmers (under 35). :p
Still better then the SV(u)btle peeps (but less exclusive, by invitation only
peeps, let's keep it classy!).

~~~
jholman
I agree with you (strongly about medium, though I disagree about blogger). Or,
to put it in terms more related to the article...

Medium is nouveau riche, LJ is authentic aristocracy. If you think Medium is
"nice middle-class", it means you're lower-middle-class.

PS: I can't tell if I'm kidding or not.

PPS: what does it say about my class that I thought these post-scripts are a
good idea?

~~~
notlisted
Correct insertion of the extra P tells me so much about you. This whole social
class stuff is quite funny when you start thinking about it. I'm terribly
judgmental it seems...

------
norea-armozel
I think the question of social class applies to my situation quite well
considering that despite the fact that I'm a programmer and have a degree in
computer science I honestly don't fit in well with people who would be
described as middle class. Working class still seems to apply to me despite my
salary and job.

~~~
brational
This is widely true in a lot of other engineering disciplines, especially
those that are more hands-on. Anecdotally, in certain parts of the country
this is why engineers (think mechanical, civil, etc) are viewed a large step
below "true white collar management" types.

------
Retric
Culture in many ways is an adaptation to local conditions magnified though
feedback loops. Deserts promote different types of stories vs. grasslands vs.
seashore. Now days location is less important, but wealth and poverty are also
worlds apart.

What IMO get's lost in these discussions is poor people can make rational
choices that conflict with wealthy culture. "Sorry, broke" is a shield for
many things making savings often money that you simply don't get to spend.
What happens when your 50 and owe more money than you will make in the rest of
your life?

------
primodemus
Relevant: [http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/30/staying-
classy/](http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/30/staying-classy/)

~~~
RodericDay
> the Left engages in Orwellian doublethink, insisting the problem doesn't
> exist and shouldn't be spoken of.

> Politically, the left pretends class doesn’t exist

...what?

~~~
throwanem
One of OP's early theses is that the left is all about economic class, but
can't admit social classes exist, so conflates them with economic class in
order to talk about them.

~~~
RodericDay
Who exactly can't admit social classes exist? Karl Marx was very aware of the
existence of status classes running counter to economic classes (the status of
wealthy jewish people of low-status in Europe was fascinating to proto-
sociologists, many of them jewish), he just theorized that economic class was
"the big one" from which the others stemmed. Jews as a social class weren't
sprung from the ether, though.

Max Weber, another leftist considered one of the fathers of sociology, named
the "Status Class", related to prestige, one of the three main ones along
economic and political allegiance ones.

Modern intersectionalists routinely bring up how arbitrary many of our social
predilections seem to be, such as "tan white > white > black", or "pink is for
girls", and look at these chicken-and-egg situations trying to figure out
where they started. Where does the impetus for this bloggers' parents
_verbally check[ing] us in a heartbeat if the vowel in our "to" started
getting too schwa-like_ come from?

The big mistake made by the author of that piece is the idea that they can
isolate class and talk about it as its own thing. It's a very scientist-like
analytic-approach (kinda like Marx isolating economic factors in spite of the
others), but seeing as the author is openly _against_ abolishing classes, it
seems to be in service of discrediting the efforts of the economically-
conscious-left ("even if you abolish economic classes social classes will
prevail, so don't bother") rather than as an honest intellectual inquiry.

With this line:

> Please note: for purposes of this discussion, the topics of race, ethnicity,
> gender, immigration status, and native language are all derails of the
> topic, which is class.

The author seems more concerned with prevailing than with being correct.

~~~
throwanem
If your benchmark for analyzing the modern left is a collection of theorists
from a hundred years ago, you're going to misunderstand a lot more than just
this.

~~~
tamana
If you think "left" is precise enough category to talk about meaningfully,
you're going to misunderstand lot more than just this.

------
sevensor
This is well worth the read. It's far too easy not to perceive the class
issues she brings up, because we're so uncomfortable discussing them. And if
you're affluent, it's much easier not to think of yourself as part of a self-
perpetuating privileged class.

------
Tycho
The telltale sign of classicism in modern America is how the upper middle
classes continue to put up with inflated college tuition fees. They're
basically paying to keep the lower classes out.

------
known
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility)
!=
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility)

~~~
kelukelugames
I feel programmers have made it econimically. I know a large number of devs in
their 30s who make over 200k a year. But we haven't climbed the social ladder
as well. Maybe that follows the money.

~~~
norea-armozel
Yep, that's definitely my situation in life. Still working class despite the
salary. It's like the areas that are suppose to be open to me seem hostile to
my mere presence. I'm not sure if it's the way I walk, talk, act, or whatever.
Just the look on certain people's faces really tell me that I'm not welcomed
or "one of them" without a single word said on the matter. It's so weird being
aware of it now after all these years.

~~~
henrikschroder
Again, from the article:

> It is a common misconception that the primary obstacle to being in a much
> higher class is money to afford the things by which one performs that class.
> The limiting factor is not money, it is this: it is impossible to join a
> culture the ways of which you know nothing. You may come by money, but the
> ignorance of how to use it to perform that higher class will keep you out as
> adamantly as if there were a wall built around it.

So learn from this. Learn how to perform as upper middle class. Learn to
radiate more confidence, try to look like you belong. If you look like a
trespasser, if for a moment you look like you cannot believe you would end up
in a place like _this_ , you're exposed as not "one of us".

------
pchristensen
If you're interested in this, the Cracked podcast discussed this article and
related articles.

[http://www.cracked.com/podcast/americas-secret-caste-
system/](http://www.cracked.com/podcast/americas-secret-caste-system/)

------
cblock811
Yeah I got rid of my accent years ago when I realized that stigma existed. I
also try to sound...less gay (idk how else to explain it) when I'm dealing
with new people. Deeper voice, neutral accent, etc. It's pretty annoying to
have to dodge random prejudices but that's life I guess.

------
stcredzero
_Thus social class and economic class are not identical, they are
intersectional. They relate and they mediate one another, but they are not the
same thing._

And both of these are not identical to race in the US, but their perception is
indeed still partially mediated by race.

~~~
pluma
I find it frustrating that while everyone seems to be fine discussing
privilege afforded by ethnicity, lack of disabilities or gender, the elephant
in the room tends to get ignored: people like Zuckerberg or Gates weren't just
privileged because they were born in the right skin (including the dangly
bits) but also because they were born into the right families.

If you are studying in an Ivy League tier university in the US and your
parents know influential people in major companies, you are incredibly
privileged. And as the article lays out, this actually reflects two forms of
privilege: social class and economic class (of parents, close family,
potential love interests and eventually yourself as an aggregate).

The number of trans, non-male, non-white or non-heterosexual founders and
leaders in major tech companies gets talked about every now and then. But I
doubt any of those (proportional to the absolute distribution across the
population) is significantly more concerning than the number of people from
lower social and economical classes in the same roles.

Of course these attributes can compound (e.g. "race" is often used as a handle
for social class) but diversity needs to take all factors into account in
order to fulfil its promise. Nepotism isn't just about skin colour and dangly
bits, and class discrimination is far easier to hide behind "culture fit" than
other forms of discrimination.

~~~
stcredzero
According to the op, class discrimination _is_ "culture fit."

------
turar
A couple of related posts that I found very interesting and are probably worth
sharing here:

A reddit discussion on bullshitting and class:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1h3j08/generatio...](http://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1h3j08/generation_y_why_young_voters_are_backing_the/caqq8th?context=2)
with a link to this piece:
[http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2013/06/my-
public-s...](http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2013/06/my-public-
school-days-the-building-of-upper-class-solidarity/)

~~~
turar
Just realized the second link is broken and can't edit the original comment.
Fixed link: [http://bright-green.org/2013/06/25/my-public-school-days-
the...](http://bright-green.org/2013/06/25/my-public-school-days-the-building-
of-upper-class-solidarity/)

------
MadManE
I had an almost jarring occurrence of this happen when I graduated with my
BSME. My first name is traditionally associated with old rednecks. I sent out
a hundred or so resumes before I got any response at all - an offhand comment
about duct tape engineering.

For whatever reason, that clicked with me. So, I added my middle name to my
resume and had a job within a week. I've been going by my middle name
professionally ever since.

------
TaylorGood
Have a friend with tattoos everywhere; his recent remarks about a local yacht
club had a layer of loath attached. It's as if he despises my 1) access and 2)
ability to stroll around (no visible tattoos). He grew up inland, I didn't.
His mom thinks money is bad, my family doesn't. The difference in the details
make all the difference !

------
gscott
The authors family sought to raise their blue collar class to a higher one. I
have for years thought of a non-profit that might do this by sponsoring
children into music instrument lessons, horseback riding, and language
lessons. Things that most (say 75% of people) cannot afford. This could be
done in group lessons to save on cost.

~~~
mdpopescu
I don't think it's simply a "can't afford" issue. If the parents don't make a
conscious, long-term effort (like in the author's case), you risk a huge
blowback from them when the kids start acting "strangely". Nerds get bullied
in school for being different than jocks; imagine having that happen with
everyone you encounter, including your parents.

------
aandrieiev
I'm wondering if using "IIII" instead of "IV" for the 4th chapter was
intentional or it has to do with the social class of the author =)

------
Spooky23
I moved from NYC to the rural reaches of upstate New York when I was 11. My
family and folks I hung out had a mixed of "Lunged Idland", Brooklyn and Irish
accents. Nobody had any idea what I was saying for several months after
moving, with good reason.

The accent still pops out once in awhile, usually when I'm tired or agitated.
Some folks find it grating or aggressive. I just tell them to screw off.

------
jiiam
Interesting, but annoyingly condescending.

------
hyperliner
This is a very good article.

In America, there is also an example where we "build up" the social class of
some segment to compensate for our self-centered guilt.

Take the example of the military service. The vast majority of people would
rather be at the mall and let someone else fight and die for the country. But
the "I support our troops" bumper sticker is everywhere, or maybe they sent
ten bucks to Fisher House or Operation Homefront, but not once have those
people wanted to volunteer at a veterans hospital.

So what do we do to cover got guilt? "Ah, let's do a parade for them!!!"

~~~
secstate
When I was a teenager I thought charity absent asceticism was pathetic. Why
give the homeless guy your pocket change when you can afford to give him $20
for dinner? Why donate to the fire department, when you could make time in
your life to volunteer for the fire department? (I live in a small New England
town where volunteer depts are the norm.)

Compensating for self-centered guilt is not evil or virtuous. Life is not
boolean. When you start to dig into any one person's psychology it's amazing
any of us have the gumption to wake up in the morning and accomplish anything
given how much of our habits and behaviors are coping mechanisms for something
else.

This was a very good article. But the conclusion that we should all feel
guilty for covering up our guilt with social class worship is not terribly
productive.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
> But the conclusion that we should all feel guilty for covering up our guilt
> with social class worship is not terribly productive.

I didn't think that was the conclusion at all.

------
gragas
>disproportionately impact the impecunious – the almost-certain forthcoming
hike in T fares looms large in my anxieties right now – but I am a
professional with an advanced degree and possession of the shibboleths of the
professional class

This actually hurt to read. It sounds like an excerpt from a Nabokov novel.

(Don't get me wrong, Nabokov is a fantastic writer. But there is a time and
place for writing like that, and this is not one of them.)

------
RodericDay
It's a bit disturbing to me how enthusiastically the SlaterStarCodex crowd
latches onto this "fuck you, got mine" essay, gushing with praise and
admiration about telling it like it is. The entire thing is a rationalization
for the thinking illustrated in these quotes:

> _I feel the need for a disclaimer of sorts. I am writing about class and
> some of the injustices of classism, but I do not particularly pretend to
> position myself as an enemy of classism: I 'm pretty classist. And by
> "pretty classist", I don't mean in the sense of "Everybody's a Little Bit
> Racist" or "gee, internalized misogyny is hard to totally eradicate". No, I
> mean closer to Segregation and PUAs._

> _My parents were born of blue collar families in blue collar communities and
> were of concerted agreement that their life goals were to flee that class
> and never have anything to do with it again. Elevating their – and their
> progeny 's – social class was the family project. They enlisted my sister
> and I in this project, and were explicit, formal, and unapologetic about
> it._

> _I empathize when social classes not mine find themselves on the short end
> of the stick, such as in the above account of smoking regulations, but that
> doesn 't mean I'd do anything to change that outcome. Like, "Wow, it must
> suck to have your class' norms so disrespected by a change in the law like
> that. Welp, I'm off to buy a burger in this now refreshingly smoke-free
> burger joint, and discuss with my class-peers how else we can change public
> policy to make it more support my class' norms – even, if necessary, at your
> class' norms' expense."_

The idea that "the Left" engages in "Orwellian double-think" with regards to
class, is also pretty puzzling.

> _A thing that has been very frustrating to me is that most books and other
> discussions I have been able to find that really address that social classes
> are cultures have come out of the Right. Again this pattern: the Right, at
> least, admits the phenomenon exists, mostly so they can hate on people (also
> see "culture of poverty"); the Left engages in Orwellian doublethink,
> insisting the problem doesn't exist and shouldn't be spoken of._

The Left promotes class-consciousness with the goal of abolishing unjust and
arbitrary delineations, in its many dimensions (including the extremely well
acknowledged ones such as vernacular). The idea that "the Left" has no notion
that a poor Led Zeppelin fan can be higher class than the wife of a wealthy
drug-dealer is insane.

edit: reply to gjm (because I got flagged too much)

The author

\- belittles their opposition (ie: "It is a common confusion – _or
intellectual dodge_ – to conflate social class with economic class."),

\- expresses veiled dismay that they can't "describe an ethnic, regional, or
national culture with contempt, as broken or defective",

\- is against legal prejudices today, but against any measures that attempt to
correct the damage caused by those legal prejudices in the past ("I'm on-board
with the idea that all people have equal rights before the law, and entitled
to a baseline level of respect as fellow humans, but I'm not sure how much
further than that I go." \- ie: the arrangement looks like this today, deal
with it as if it was fair regardless of how we got here)

\- and concludes with "let's leave race out of it for the moment", echoing
much of the talk by LessWrong-types "tired" of talk of sexism and racism.

This piece is not just a humble description of how they see the world, it's
very prescriptive. The overall impression I get is a righteous defense of the
"fuck you, got mine" mentality, very inspired by Ayn Rand.

~~~
maldusiecle
It's a common attitude in a lot of LessWrong-adjacent blogs: analyze some
complex phenomenon that the social sciences have studied in depth, but act as
if no one has ever thought of it before. So when class comes up, it's better
to think of in the terms of some rando blogger, not (for instance) Bourdieu or
Weber.

And then when you get absurd results, it proves your originality and
willingness to look past conventional wisdom.

~~~
haberman
Bourdieu and Weber are "rando bloggers" compared to Marx, perhaps we should
write them off too?

~~~
maldusiecle
Presumably anyone studying Weber and Bourdieu has also studied Marx. Anyway,
Weber's influence on sociology is huge, comparable to Marx's, and Bourdieu was
obviously influenced by Marx, so your comparison doesn't work on any level,
really.

