
Apple was overtaken by Huawei in global smartphone sales - prostoalex
https://qz.com/1345496/apple-was-just-overtaken-by-huawei-in-global-smartphone-sales/
======
adbge
I bought a Huawei Honor 7x two months ago, and was happy with it until a
software update went out that bricked mobile data on my device.

Factory resetting the device doesn't fix it (nor messing with APN settings),
so I looked into flashing a ROM onto it to see if that'd do it, only to
discover that Huawei has taken down the service which allowed customers to
unlock their devices's bootloader. Now you have to contact support and wait
for them to email you an unlock code. This is clearly a user hostile move: it
makes it harder to load your own software on a device you purchased and, in my
case, fix my own device.

I won't be buying from Huawei again.

~~~
fermienrico
Just to add to your conclusion, I think Apple leads in privacy. I would never
buy a Chinese phone just from the fact that the Chinese government has a
tremendous oversight and interference with large businesses.

Yes, US has that issue with NSA but at least Apple stands against abuse of
data privacy and has a firm ethetical stance to protect consumers data. I
don’t trust Google for that matter.

Edit: I feel like there is going to be what-about-tism responses. So, before
you respond, ask yourself if you can criticize the Chinese government, protest
against it and make a change in China. Last time that happened in Tiananmen
square, there was massacre. That does not happen in US.

~~~
robotresearcher
Kent State is within living memory, lest we forget.

Tiananmen Square massacre, 1989.

Kent State massacre, 1970.

~~~
rayiner
That's quite a raging false equivalency. It's not clear exactly why the
National Guard started shooting at Kent State, but there is no credible
allegation that anyone ordered the shooting. In the aftermath, a federal
commission was convened, and declared the shootings "unjustified" by the
threat of violence to the guardsmen. (The protesters _were_ violent--a few
days before, they had set the campus ROTC building on fire.) Eight guardsmen,
including all the ones believed to be responsible for the deaths, were
indicted and tried. They were acquitted due to insufficient evidence of
intent. The Supreme Court permitted civil suits against Ohio to go forward
(the state ultimately settled). The incident led to the National Guard
changing its crowd control policies. Today, Kent State is taught widely in
schools and is recognized as a national tragedy.

Now, how many of these things apply to Tiananmen Square?

~~~
robotresearcher
Tiananmen was much bigger and differs in many ways. The scales are not
comparable.

Yet Kent State is a simple counter example to the grandparent’s claim that
political protestors are not massacred in the US.

I’m not sure how much more clear I can be.

------
bhouston
I recently bought the "Huawei Mate SE 4G LTE" for my parents because they
needed a phone upgrade. I thought I was buying a bargain phone at less than
$205 USD, and it turns out it actually is really good. Strange how good it is
at that price.

~~~
fffernan
Strange like the government in China is subsidizing it?

~~~
xvedejas
More like strange how Apple can charge as much as they do because their brand
is targeting the "luxury" market.

~~~
agumonkey
Apple always did that. It's not entirely vain.

!) they led the pack, their brand has value (stores waiting line) 2) they push
the price as high as it can be (cold but smart) 3) their products often have
higher level of finish <= this is worth a lot, very often you have lower
priced product with almost the same specs.. but a ton of 'almosts' create a
shitty product. It's surprisingly costly to push a few percent above the pack.

~~~
iainmerrick
And their profit margin is “only” 20-25%. That’s high compared to the rest of
the industry, but not ludicrously so.

I think it’s a lower margin than luxury watches or clothes, say, where you’re
mostly paying for the label, and more comparable to something like luxury
cars, where they clearly have to invest a lot in design, materials and
manufacturing to make a decent product.

(Having said that, a quick google suggests Rolex’s margin is only about 30%,
so maybe all these businesses are more similar than I realized.)

~~~
jdietrich
iPhones represent about 15% of global smartphone shipments, but over 90% of
profits. Google intended to commoditise smartphones with Android and largely
achieved that aim; nobody is making much money from Android handsets. iOS (and
the luxury cachet of the brand) gives Apple a moat that allows them to make
meaningful profits on their devices.

Apple's operating margin hovers around 22%, but their gross margin on iPhones
is well over 50%. A lot of the difference is tax trickery - Apple funnel a
large proportion of profits to offshore companies, which doesn't appear on
their balance sheet.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_erosion_and_profit_shifti...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_erosion_and_profit_shifting)

[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/world/apple-taxes-
jersey....](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/world/apple-taxes-jersey.html)

~~~
ksec
It is also worth noting Apple rarely subsides its Hardware Product, and I cant
record one that ever existed. From Cables, Hobbies, or other smaller gadget
they all have nearly the same gross margin. As a matter of fact the pricing
structure of Apple's hardware are the easiest part to understand.

Compare to others, Google subsidise Android development with Ads from Search
Engine, Huawei cover most of the R&D expense via their Industry leading
telecom infrastructure market, Sony has lot of business to cover for their
every losing money Mobile handset, Samsung Electronics, has NAND / DRAM and
Semi Fab for their bottom line as well as being a group of larger Samsung.

It is not that Apple made lots of money covering the industry 90% of profits,
it is that everyone else aren't making money at all. And in the long run,
those who cant get enough cash flow will die out. In 2017 the top 5 brand
manage 60% of market shares, nearly 10% higher then last year. We are looking
at 65% this year, and very likely in a few years time, Apple, Samsung, Huawei,
Vivo / OPPO, Xiaomi will cover 80%+ of market.

~~~
iainmerrick
Maybe this isn’t what you’re talking about, but aren’t their storage prices
excessively high?

You pay a _lot_ for a 500G or 1TB SSD from Apple, vastly more than
competitors. I always assumed their margin was higher on the higher tiers.

------
ianai
Isn’t this the same company that’s barred from providing parts to US
government systems - because their hardware has been found with advanced
roots?

~~~
Leary
Maybe the NSA found something when they hacked into Huawei's servers.

[https://www.pcworld.com/article/2110960/nsa-hacked-into-
serv...](https://www.pcworld.com/article/2110960/nsa-hacked-into-servers-at-
huawei-headquarters-reports-say.html)

Does anyone have evidence that Huawei's "hardware has been found with advanced
roots" ?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Does anyone have evidence that Huawei 's "hardware has been found with
> advanced roots" ?_

Yes, Huawei's products are known to be compromised [1]. Which shouldn't be
surprising, given the founder's PLA roots.

[1]
[https://krebsonsecurity.com/tag/huawei/](https://krebsonsecurity.com/tag/huawei/)

------
riku_iki
It is by number of units sold, not revenue, and with Samsung at first place.

~~~
mkirklions
About to post dirty words that seemingly get me downvotes dispite HN being a
place for discussion...

I find samsung quality medium at best. They charge top of the line prices and
have really bright phones and TVs... However their hardware has broken
multiple times and their smart TVs are annoying slow for something you pay
1,000 USD for. (my grandpa bought said TV)

Then Apple, oh boy, either Apple has a marketing team that patrols HN or they
have rabid fanboys. It is never good for consumers or developers to have
proprietary hardware and development kits. I dont understand the relationship
between Customer and Apple. Customer constantly gets screwed and they love it.
I dont understand it, maybe its a comfort/reliable thing, but in 2018 use-
ability seems pretty standard in every phone/app.

Maybe this is true because profit feeds itself, a company gets big and uses
that to get bigger. The bigger the margin between revenue and profit, the more
successful=more TV ads=more profit.

I find this a very frustrating situation for everyone who has Apple or Samsung
products. But it looks like there is no end in sight, and Samsung has a very
active Reddit marketing team that will downvote/destroy anything negative.

~~~
heimidal
If someone in the US isn't buying Apple or Samsung, what do you suggest they
buy?

Your opinion that "it is never good for consumers or developers to have
proprietary hardware and development kits" isn't much of an argument, it's
just an opinion.

~~~
michaelmrose
Proprietary system make it vastly easier to screw/control consumers.

I recall once owning a Verizon phone where you had to both buy it outright and
pay $10 per month to use the gps. Only partners were allowed to make apps so
it was impossible for someone to just turn around and make a mapping app for
less money.

You can just not provide updates to drivers ensuring that people are stuck
buying new devices to use a newer OS.

You can make it increasingly hard to get official parts/services by using non
standard parts and controlling access to such.

I don't think its some much an opinion as pretty obvious.

~~~
scarface74
_You can just not provide updates to drivers ensuring that people are stuck
buying new devices to use a newer OS._

That has nothing to do with being “proprietary”

Apple is releasing OS 12 later this year for the iPhone 5S released in 2012.
How many Android phones from 2015 let alone 2012 are still supported by the
manufacturer?

To go even further back with proprietary operating systems, my 2009 era Dell
laptop is currently running Windows 10.

------
some_account
They are also making great laptops with the Matebook X Pro. I think we will
see a lot of really good tech from them going forward.

All while Apple is putting out laptops that people don't want.

~~~
scarface74
According to thier latest quarterly results - at least a few million want
them.

~~~
doctorwho
Apple looks strong because their price per unit i.e. the "stupid" tax they
make you pay on all their products is astronomically high. The actual demand
and shipping volumes for their laptops has never set any records and the
iPhone is sucking air now too. Their current lineup of products is mediocre at
best when compared with what other companies are coming up with. Their biggest
"innovations" lately are the touch bar (loser), removing useful ports/features
that people like/love and dark mode. Really? Apple is the DeLorean of tech.

~~~
scarface74
So if millions of people are choosing to spend thier money on Apple products,
is it possible that thier opinions and priorities may be different than yours?

BTW, all you have to do is look st their quarterly results and see what their
volume of iPhone and iPad sales were year over year to see that neither is
“sucking wind”.

~~~
iainmerrick
I think it’s fair to say the iPad is still relatively weak (relative to the
phenomenal success of the iPhone, anyway). Unit sales have been flat for a
while and revenue is down 5%.

~~~
djrogers
> I think it’s fair to say the iPad is still relatively weak (relative to the
> phenomenal success of the iPhone, anyway).

By that standard so is _literally_ every consumer product ever created. Take
the comparison out of the picture though, and The iPad alone is a solid
Fortune 500 company that didn’t even exist 9 years ago.

------
baybal2
I have Huawei Maimang 5.

Huawei makes somewhat pricey, but boring mid-range products.

They sell so well around the world because they caught on consumer trends that
are near invisible to most American marketing people, let alone SV based ones.

They target the rapidly growing global middle class.

~~~
taobility
Huawei is so popular in Europe countries, like France, UK etc

------
durpleDrank
Not the biggest Apple fan but I've never had a good experience with $200
phones from Aliexpress/Gearbest. I always end up returning them. A lot of the
times they come with weird "Android" portal OS's. Meaning you can't really
access the play store normally and annoying things like that.

There is mandatory bloatware that you can't remove for services that not many
westerners know about. Even the microphone and cameras are usually crappy on
these. I switched from using a xiaomi redmi 5 to an old Galaxy S4, and the S4
is so much better. Even though the specs are A LOT lower, the S4 had better
Microphone processing, better Camera (although not as many mega pixels), and
believe it or not less restrictive bloatware.

I realize all these products are made in China, I just want to tell a
cautionary tale. The PRICE is right but I think the manufactures don't really
understand QUALITY and CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE the way Apple does.

~~~
chrisper
Huawei isn't $200 phones from Ali express. The P20 Pro is a great phone.

~~~
Synaesthesia
Even the P20 lite is very impressive

~~~
sgroppino
Or the Honor 9 lite which BTW also belongs to Huawei. Amazing value for money.

------
erdosnew
i bought my mom a Huawei Mate SE a couple months ago and she loves it.

I also read that Huawei's new Mate Pro notebook is getting rave reviews, it
comes with a 3:2 ratio screen, hate the wide screen format most manufactures
use nowadays

------
henryw
I read in another article that Apple usually is number one in the holiday
quarter.

~~~
jandrese
Apple is typically #1 in profit, but Samsung beats them on volume.

This makes a lot of sense when you think about it. Apple puts almost no effort
towards building low end phones with thin profit margins. It's a huge market
that has to be filled by other vendors.

~~~
parallel_item
Some crazy stat exists related to this. Something like Apple making less than
15% of global units while reaping some 80% of the global profits related to
said units. In this case, I weigh profits as the best manifestation of the
company's position and not units produced.

~~~
snowwrestler
In 2016:

> BMO Capital Markets analyst Tim Long estimates that Apple accounted for
> 103.6% of smartphone industry operating profits in the third quarter. Its
> share is over 100% because other vendors lost money in the business,
> resulting in Apple having more smartphone profit than the industry netted
> overall. In the year-earlier period, Apple grabbed 90% of smartphone
> profits, Long said in a research report Thursday.

[https://www.investors.com/news/technology/click/apple-
iphone...](https://www.investors.com/news/technology/click/apple-iphone-
grabs-104-of-smartphone-industry-profit-in-q3/)

------
jrnichols
It's amazing how much Huawei has grown. Here's an article about them from
2017:

[http://knowledge.ckgsb.edu.cn/2017/03/27/china-business-
stra...](http://knowledge.ckgsb.edu.cn/2017/03/27/china-business-
strategy/huawei-strategy-push-forward/)

they wanted to top the smartphone market, and just over a year later, here
they are.

------
sorenjan
What's the software like on the Chinese phones, like Huawei and Xiaomi? Most
hardware is similar enough that it doesn't really matter, the software defines
the phone experience.

~~~
chrisper
I have a P20 Pro. I quite like it and I even came from the pixel. It's mostly
stock but with a bunch of useful features added.

I put Nova launcher on it though.

Some people don't like the aggressive power saving though.

------
1996
I love Huawei stuff - mostly their cellular modems, as you can use their voice
features on FreeSWITCH thanks to the encoding they support

Lots of great items from Huawei, even if Xiaomi gets most of the press, and
Huawei could be more "open"

~~~
e12e
Hey, wasn't aware of that. You mean like? :

[https://freeswitch.org/confluence/display/FREESWITCH/mod_gsm...](https://freeswitch.org/confluence/display/FREESWITCH/mod_gsmopen)

Looks like it's about 20 usd/dongle - if that's with voice that's pretty cheap
for setting up a national pop for incoming calls/sms (which are usually free)
- for routing to voip.

~~~
1996
Exactly. Voice and SMS work both.

I love Huawei products, because as you said it is very cheap. The alternatives
are several hundreds to get a working gsm pop.

------
Leary
Does anyone know how this will affect the development of 5g?

