
How do I become a self-sufficient old man in a shack? - mman
Let's say i have $10000. Is it possible to build the following existence (for one person's lifetime)?<p>- Food/water (or equivalent), shelter from elements and predators, comfortable temperature, ability
to stay clean and free from disease.<p>- Upper limit for time spent on daily involuntary tasks (say 1hr/day) with definite certainty on ability to maintain existence. Assuming no outstanding terrestrial occurences, there should never be any stress from fluctuation of shelter or resource availability<p>- Visibility at night; fire/candles ok, i guess<p>- Bed, chair/desk, say 10 sheets of paper a day, writing utensil to fill 10 sheets a day<p>- Internet access, say 100 hours lifetime total, accessable at some definite rate, say at least once a month for an hour at a time max (Richard Stallman style is ok)<p>- Ability to receive shipment of goods whose requirement cannot be predetermined (such as books), with finite extra funds set aside for purchasing of said goods<p>- Ability to escape the system as i see fit
======
SageRaven
More parameters are needed, in my opinion. What you want is possible, but not
with only $10k. That, or give up some requirements (internet, unless you want
to walk to a public library) and be prepared to squat on someone else's
property.

I live close to your desired existence. I own my humble hermit's cabin
outright, have no debt at all, and a few grand in savings. I grow some of my
own food, hunt some more, but I still need supplies. I could conceivably coast
through a few years without any external income, but it would be a very
Thoreau-like existence (which isn't a _bad_ thing, just too primitive for me).
I own my car and home, but still forced to pay insurance and yearly
registration/taxes (cheap, as the car and home are old and of _very_ low
value, but they're non-negotiable and will surely rise over the years and are
unavoidable). I still pay for power and internet, which could be trimmed (but
what's the fun in that?).

If someone mailed me a check for $100k today, I'd never need to work again,
and I'm under 40. I'm that set up and frugal. As it stands, I pimp myself out
as a remote admin and local PC support dude, with minor hopes that I can
realize a small web site that will bring in a few kilobucks a year.

For $10k you can buy an acre on Hawaii ("the big island" -- subdivisions near
the lava flows), fly out there, and start gardening year-round while you live
in a tent. Water falls from the sky daily and you can raise some meat to
supplement the fruit and veggies you can grow. You'd have enough cash to pay
for a few years of taxes, too.

Property taxes will get you every time, though, unless you squat. There's some
dude who lives in a cave in southern Utah on public land. He eats bugs and
scavenges food from nearby towns. Interesting experiment, but he'd be hosed
(likely) if the majority of people weren't wasteful and he lacked stuff to
scavenge.

Anyway, it's possible, but you'd either need more money up front, to have
everything owned outright when you begin, or have enough passive
income/savings to cover taxes and minimal supplies. Like I said before, more
information on your current situation and your goals/plans are required for a
more realistic analysis.

~~~
mman
Hm, it looks like property taxes are amazing in louisiana. Does anyone know
the net cost of getting set up with a crappy katrina cottage?

~~~
JohnnyBrown
there are vaguely habitable houses available in my neighborhood (seventh ward
new orleans) for 50k or even less

------
pilom
Where you will run into problems is food. B/c you only want to spend 1 hour a
day on involuntary tasks, you'll have to buy food. Regardless of how
efficiently you buy, your 10k wont last very long that way.

If you are a little skilled and live in the right area, you can get food from
hunting/trapping but you're still looking at significantly more than 1 hour a
day. Farming is right out.

To live that life you really have to be willing to work a little harder or
spend a little more. No Minority Report ending, sorry.

~~~
fleitz
If you are willing to live on rice it's about $200 a year for 2000 kcal per
day. This is at supermarket prices, if you were willing to buy by the tonne
I'm sure it's much less, just buy a futures contract and bring your truck to
the delivery point.

~~~
lionhearted
Serious question, not joking - wouldn't you die, literally die, without any
protein, fat, or micronutrients?

~~~
SageRaven
Yes, he would suffer serious malnutrition. However, he could supplement with
one or two other cheap bulk crops (whole wheat, corn, and/or beans). Still, it
would be efficient to raise small grass-eating animals for food, such as
rabbit or even guinea pigs. Grass and weeds are abundant and free, far cheaper
than meat.

Trace elements and minerals are fairly easy to get. Many of those same weeds
you can feed to rabbits are chock-full of all kinds of good nutrition. A book
on edible plants is recommended reading. Lichens and wild mushrooms (tread
carefully!) are great sources of such nutrients.

For $10, you can buy a 50-pound bag of mineral supplement for livestock
(chelated, highly bioavailble raw minerals -- pretty much mined from old
lake/ocean beds and ground to a powder) that should last one person most of a
lifetime. Much cheaper than a case of One A Day or Centrum tablets.

~~~
ippisl
using animal mineral supplement is interesting , But what about minimal and
maximal concentrations needed for humans , vs animals ? do you of an animal
mineral product, with mineral levels that are proportionate to human minerals
? do you know someone who uses this idea ?

~~~
SageRaven
[http://www.redmondnatural.com/redmond-natural-
conditioner.ht...](http://www.redmondnatural.com/redmond-natural-
conditioner.html)

We use this stuff for our animals. On occasion, I will fill a couple of gel
caps with the stuff and take some myself.

I take the glowing testimonials with a grain of salt (ha!), but the stuff
seems to have a good reputation. Most ranchers tend to neglect their herds
(likely more out of ignorance than malice), so I'm not surprised to hear that
adding this supplement would yield huge improvement. Anecdotal accounts on
various forums have been positive.

For all I know, this stuff could kill me in the long run, so don't come
blaming me if it kills you should you try it. Consult your physician,
dietitian, lawyer and all that standard disclaimer stuff.

------
lionhearted
A thought - you might want to try this out for a month in a dry run before
spending time building it. I spent about two months learning how to track,
trap, and otherwise survive in the Southern Utah desert, which was an amazing
experience that taught me a lot, but not as romantic as you might imagine.
Before investing time, dreams, and resources learning about and trying to
build this, why not go rent a remote cabin for a month and see how it suits
you?

~~~
mman
Again, I'm sorry as the title is a little misleading. I don't really care
about being isolated or roughing it in the wilderness. I'd rather not spend
time learning any survival skills whatsoever, or even how to farm. I want to
minimize involuntary tasks. It could be in the middle of NYC for all i care.
But no roaches or bedbugs are allowed.

~~~
lionhearted
Okay, I understand better now.

Why not do a kind of work you find really enjoyable, and sell/trade that work
with people whose company you enjoy? This is generally my philosophy to
entrepreneurship anyways - there's a bit of involuntary time involved (taxes,
accounting, errands), but I think you could get it down to less than one hour
per day. If you didn't care about having extremely nice material
comforts/status symbols, I bet you could make a decent life doing a
skill/craft you like and enjoy being immersed in with minimum
admin/involuntary time. Some kind of focused writing, craft, skill, or
technology work maybe?

~~~
mman
Yes, this all stems from realizing the only reason i want to "get rich" is
basically so i can live the life described. I want to do only the things that
i want to do all the time. And the things that i want to do are extremely
simple. But i am willing to give up some time to do other things. Yes, I would
consider trading and selling involuntary activities.

The only voluntary activities are reading, writing, thinking, and
communicating. I guess eating, sex, and shitting can all go in the voluntary
slot, too.

~~~
DougWebb
If you've figured out a way to make eating and shitting voluntary, you should
just write about that. The sales will be enough to ensure you never have to
work again.

~~~
flannell
I had to +1 your comment, made me 'ROFL'

------
10ren
Great question. I think more passive income is required for food etc. eg. my
rule of thumb $1,000 invested will bring in about $1-2 per week; or, some
businesses you own can (theoretically) provide passive income, but in practice
it's not totally passive (1 hour per day is quite reasonable though.) But both
sources will require more work to setup in the first place, to create the
"asset". Another option is part-time consulting work; if you charge $100 per
hour, that's $500 per week. Of course, you probably can't get that literally
one hour per day; it would be bursty: (say) full-time for a few weeks, then
don't work for a year. That's a popular hacker route. But again, you'd have
some setup cost, in having the technical skills (and keeping them up to date)
+ (more importantly) having the business skills to keep _getting_ the work,
year after year (and the social temperament.) It's sounding more reliable to
work for a whole year, and invest _that_.

Though my personal experience is that I really missed being productive for
other people, and have decided to expend effort doing useful things for others
(create the value that _I_ want to create, on my own timetable and terms -
largely an intersection of benefiting both others and myself.) It took me 2-3
years of not working to come to that decision, and it seems typical of people
who retire. But even knowing that, I still had to see for myself. I expect you
too. Of course, it's quite possible to just do that in the first place (I
didn't.)

~~~
mman
My contribution would be my research, if it ends up being any good. But i
don't want to be a slave to researching just so i can receive funding and
continue my studies, I want to be self-sufficient and research exactly what i
feel like, independent of others.

------
kbob
Commit a felony and go to jail. That will meet most of your requirements. You
will probably be paroled early, so commit additional felonies as required.

~~~
mman
Oh, by "escape the system" i meant escape the system we create here, as in
keep my freedom, not be incarcerated, not be prevented from having sex or
children for the rest of my life, etc.

~~~
siculars
This lifestyle will almost assuredly prevent you from having sex. Your budget
will not buy you much of it either.

~~~
mman
I just mean that i can't be a celibate monk unless i can also stop being a
celibate monk when i feel like it.

------
jperkins
People laugh when I tell them that my dream job is to tend a lighthouse (which
are all largely automated now), but it's for reasons very similar to what
you've outlined here: lots of free time for me to read and study what I'm
interested in. So another possible solution is to identify a job that's based
predominantly on the criteria of having a human present. A fire lookout comes
to mind. The one hour of work/day would probably need relaxed to two to three
hours per day, but you'd also be supplied room & board. The Internet access
might be possible via cell technology.

Please let us know how this works out for you.

~~~
c1sc0
Jack Kerouac did this in the fifties

------
Tomco
Pilom is right. Your life would become revolved around food.

You should check out the following three things:

Emergency by Neil Strauss in which Neil detail his experiences in trying to
become more self sufficient and gaining the abilities to escape from the
system

Island to Oneself by Tom Neale for a first hand account of trying to survive
on a deserted island for 16 years.

And Survivalistboards.com, which is full of conspiracy nuts but has lots of
information about becoming more self sufficient.

------
lutsp
I did this, years ago:

[http://www.atariarchives.org/deli/cottage_computer_programmi...](http://www.atariarchives.org/deli/cottage_computer_programming.php)

I started this phase out wanting to be left alone and live on $40/month, but
reality interfered and it turned out to be a way to completely change my life.

I think it can still be done. There is a steep learning curve.

~~~
10ren
Welcome, cool to have you! Did you know you've been featured here?
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=905377>

If you don't mind, I wanted to ask you: did you own the land for your shack,
or rent it? The latter is cheaper, but not independent. I recall Thoreau
didn't own his shack.

~~~
lutsp
I owned the land outright. During my previous time with a NASA subcontractor
in Silicon Valley, I realized that rent was a key problem and if I didn't own
the land, the entire idea would collapse.

Then I bought materials in cash and built a little cabin, which meant it was
also paid for. I was entirely debt-free, which I regarded as essential (and
still do).

I started a little garden and had lots of free time to think. The rest, as
they say, is history. :)

~~~
10ren
Thanks! It makes such a difference speaking to someone who's actually done it.
Not theoretical.

I guess you must have been relatively near civilization - at least a town. Can
I ask how much money it took... and how much you think it would take today?

I think it depends a lot on the land, which seems relatively expensive here in
Australia; if you want water, electricity and sewage utilities. I get the
impression there's very cheap land in some places in the States.

~~~
lutusp
I want to start by saying this was 35 years ago. I chose a part of the country
where land was relatively cheap (Oregon), and bought 5 acres for about $3000.

I built a small cabin at first -- 12x24 feet -- and this is where I wrote
Apple Writer (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Writer>), while relying on a
very long extension cord for power.

Later on I bought more land and built a larger house, but still with the idea
of living cheaply firmly guiding my actions. Then my income went over a
million dollars a year and I decided to do something completely different --
so I bought a sailboat and sailed solo around the world
(<http://arachnoid.com/sailbook>).

> if you want water, electricity and sewage utilities ...

I chose Oregon because it rains a bit, and I had previously built a cabin in
Colorado where it is very dry -- I decided that was a mistake. In Oregon, for
water I walked up the hill behind my cabin and dropped a hose in a creek. If
you choose the right altitude difference, you can duplicate normal household
water pressure. For sewage, I built an outhouse.

It really was quite primitive. But it freed me from having to pay rent or
needing much money, which meant I could think about anything I wanted. Then I
acquired an Apple II, which ironically enough I probably wouldn't have done
while working for NASA a few years before. I had this fantasy that I would
write some cool programs and people would buy them, and I could just live in
the country and people would mail me money.

The weird thing is that this is exactly what happened.

~~~
10ren
Oh man, it's such an awesome story. Thanks so much for replying. Good to hear
the shack wasn't the first iteration (nor the last). Did it take some
experience to be able to build a stable, long-lasting shack (perhaps just
woodwork in general?)

How far were you from a town, for food, construction materials, etc and a PO
(I guess biking distance)? I guess you had a friendly nearby neighbour for the
extension lead? [I've been thinking solar, which I actually used for a
hp200lx, using 4 rechargeable AAs, but today's netbooks need a gruntier, more
elaborate setup: large solar panel, lead-acid battery, transformer etc. Seems
error-prone. Maybe a kindle-like ARM+OLED/e-ink/LCD will change this.]

I'd like internet - either wired or mobile (we have rural mobile coverage, and
the govt just reelected campaigned for more) - instead of a PO, but I'd still
need a local town for food etc. It scares me a bit to be too far away - but
that's where the peace/silence is that I want/need.

Just to collect figures and conversions for reference:
<http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%243000+1975>

    
    
        $3,000 for 5 acres = $12,000 today 
        $40 per month      = $   160 today
          @ 10%            = $20,000 invested
        1200' ext lead = 365m
        Oregon 44N; Tasmania 42S
    

If these figures are applicable today, here in Australia, I could do this...
now.

~~~
10ren
I checked online real estate; the cheapest land I saw was $45,000 for 2 acres
- with services available, but not connected, and with road access. I expect
an unserviced, with no road, on the "edge of wilderness" bush block would be
cheaper, esp if a private sale and if not online. I've tried looking in the
past, with no luck; don't know how to find out about it.

Another conversion:

    
    
        5 acres = 20,234 m^s

------
Mz
I also have aspirations of independence and have concluded that "getting rich"
is not The Answer. Some things that are working for me:

For health reasons, I have given up all furniture. I sleep on the floor with
zero bedding. I had to get healthier in order to be able to do that. Being
cold was really about being sick. It was a gradual process of using less
bedding, getting healthier, and generally changing our lifestyle to need fewer
things to meet our basic needs.

I have a netbook and a small folding shelf it sits on to keep it off the
floor. The little shelf has folding legs, so I can change its position. I also
have a prepaid cell phone as the cheapest phone access and have cancelled my
landline. No furniture means less housework. It also means fewer bugs in the
house. When we first moved to this apartment, there were a lot of bugs. I
thought it was just that without furniture they were visible. Over time, with
getting healthier and getting the apartment cleaner and reducing our
possessions further, we have fewer bugs.

At the moment, we own one deep frying pan. We cook a lot from scratch, but
they are simple one dish meals. The medical condition I and my oldest son have
is high maintenance. So rearranging our lives so we have less to do in terms
of cooking, cleaning, etc is essential in order for us to be healthy and still
have time and energy to get a life (which we are basically working on now,
after having spent about a decade working on getting well).

We live without a car. That substantially cut our expenses and has turned out
to not be as challenging as I expected. Since we don't own furniture, we don't
need to haul that much crap home. We regularly buy food and clothes (because
clothes gets thrown out routinely around here....long story) and we bought a
netbook earlier this summer. But I just don't need the kind of hauling
capacity I needed when I lived more conventionally.

I have internet access via my netbook and could also have it via cellphone if
I wanted it. I guess the internet access my cell phone would offer would be
more limited. I'm reasonably content with the situation at the moment, though
there are three people sharing one netbook and the plan is to buy one or two
more netbooks when there is money for that and eventually add some (probably
handheld) gaming systems.

Anyway, that's all that comes to mind at the moment. Just start reducing your
needs now. Have a yard sale. Start living with less stuff. Step by step, you
can move towards this and as you make changes it will make other changes
possible that you wouldn't have imagined.

Good luck.

------
russell
It's an interesting question. but if you are an old hacker in the US or
probably anywhere else in the developed world you qualify for a retirement
income. At age 70 it would be something on the order of $2500/month. If you
had an unmarried old lady, you would have something on the order of $60K per
year plus reasonable health benefits in a few years.

The real problem is shelter. It is probably very difficult to build your shack
anywhere near civilization, because of building code restrictions. The
minimum, cost is probably some kind of used RV. You could theoretically avoid
the code restrictions, because you could drive to a waste pumping station,
etc. However if you blend in to a rural community sufficiently to be
considered an asset rather than a nuisance, say by continually improving you
property, you might get along quite nicely.

~~~
mman
Sorry, there is a catch: I'm not actually an old man, i just want to live the
life of an old man in a shack. What i really want is to maximize the hours per
day dedicated to sleep and whatever else i want to do, which currently is only
reading and writing. I had a relatively bad undergrad GPA and basically want
to live the life of a professor without having to worry about grad school,
then phd, tenure, teaching if i don't want to, meeting with people i don't
like, etc.

~~~
aristus
If I remember correctly, Joseph Campbell waited out the Depression this way. I
don't know how he supported himself (probably borrowed the cabin from family),
but he basically read books for 5 years.

~~~
pvdm
And what he discovered during those 5 years was really grand. Do you have a
reference for his auto/biography ? I know he ran track at Columbia, manage to
visit Europe and learned sanskrit.

------
mmphosis
Yes, but the $10000 or whatever amount of money becomes redundant. And, I do
not recommend this path, as it is not for everyone because dropping out is
instant "boot camp" rewarding in ways only you know, but boot camp. It's
difficult work. Let go of one thing that you intuit you no longer need in your
life, and watch what happens. Be gentle with yourself.

------
stretchwithme
I learned long ago that effort should be expended on expanding one's ability
to produce and create, rather than on trying to reduce one's burn rate down to
nothing.

But its a great idea to have a very simple place you can spend some time at
when you desire. I want one too.

Consider <http://tinyhouseblog.com>. It has some great information.

------
pvdm
Doug Fine has partially done this. He moved to New Mexico. Installed solar
panels for electricity. Shepherd 2 goats for milk. Grow his own vegetables.
Converted his car to run on cooking oil.

<http://www.dougfine.com/farewell-my-subaru/>

~~~
ganley
His prior book, Not Really An Alaskan Mountain Man, which coincidentally I
just finished last night, is about working toward a subsistence lifestyle in
Alaska. He never even gets close, but it's an entertaining read.

------
alexforget
That is possum living there is a book for you <http://www.possumliving.net/>
There are video about it on youTube
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvn79E40VSc>

------
sliverstorm
> Internet access, say 100 hours lifetime total, accessable at some definite
> rate, say at least once a month for an hour at a time max (Richard Stallman
> style is ok)

So, what- you've got less than 10 years left? If you want to restrict yourself
to 100 hours of internet, that's more like 2 hours per year for the rest of
your life, or 10 minutes a month.

> Upper limit for time spent on daily involuntary tasks (say 1hr/day) with
> definite certainty on ability to maintain existence. Assuming no outstanding
> terrestrial occurences, there should never be any stress from fluctuation of
> shelter or resource availability

You fundamentally misunderstand what being a self-sufficient old man in a
shack means, don't you.

------
krishna2
Read about Tom Neale: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Neale>

"spent much of his life in the Cook Islands and 16 years in three sessions
living alone on the island of Anchorage in the Suwarrow atoll, which was the
basis of his popular autobiography."

Very long but totally worth it to read the whole thing:
<http://www.janesoceania.com/suvarov_tom_neale/>

Makes me want to go to Cook Islands at the least.

------
karinqe
Go to India/China/anywhere. A change in culture can be refreshing and living
there is really cheap. English is the second official language in India, so
there shouldn't be a barrier. I also heard that the people are really really
friendly (USA/Europe seem a bit resentful to foreigners).

------
malandrew
What about living in a different country?

One of my friends lived on $100 a month in China. Out there your 10k should
get you 8 years and 4 months of living in Beijing. You certainly could last
much longer in the countryside.

You can supplement your money by teaching English.

~~~
malandrew
also, if you teach English in China, you typically get 16 hours a week of
classes. This will typically net you an apartment and between 3500-6000 Yuan
per month (about $450 to $800). You may be able to negotiate to work fewer
hours in exchange for less pay and achieve your 1 hour a day or so dedicated
to "other activities", i.e teaching.

------
Ixiaus
A mentor of mine did this, with $300,000.00 for four years. He bought a plot
of land in Wyoming, built and underground cabin, and bought a Backhoe to help
himself build it. He lived there for four years before moving on with his
life...

~~~
SageRaven
I read about this kind of failure all the time in homesteading and survivalist
circles. It takes a certain mindset to succeed, which involves adopting a bit
of minimalism and humility.

One thing people have trouble wrapping their mind around is this: the more
"toys" (tractors, machinery, etc.) that require consumables and maintenance,
the _less_ self-sufficient you will be. To be honest, even today's Amish are a
far cry from true self-sufficiency.

~~~
sliverstorm
Is your comment about "toys" exclusive to those that require consumables?

What about, for example, good knives and other various man-made tools?

I've thought about doing this sort of thing, but I'd really miss quality tools
if I had to give them up. That, and buzzing around on a motorcycle! But I
imagine even if I had a good supply of money for fuel and tires, the high risk
of injury when you're alone in the wilderness is unacceptable.

~~~
SageRaven
The value of quality, useful tools cannot be overstated. Just be wise in your
choices and understand the expenses involved other the life of the tool.

Don't buy cookware with teflon, as it will eventually wear off (nevermind the
toxicity), but buy quality heavy duty stuff. I have a set of decent stainless
steel cookware and a fair bit of cast iron, where the "non-stick" coating can
be renewed (if not maitained) for the life of the item.

Good knives (cookware or otherwise) are a very valuable asset. Invest in a
quality set of water stones to maintain them (I prefer Shapton "glass"
stones), and you'll have a useful tool for life. I'm still packing a Swiss
Army knife and fillet knife I've had since I was a kid.

Tractors and horses can be valuable, if put to good use. However, both require
maintenance and fuel. Hand tools and other human-powered devices can
accomplish quite a bit and are much cheaper to maintain in the long run.

~~~
Ixiaus
On a commune I lived on in Kentucky we had a Backhoe and tractor with an
assortment of tools and power tools; we had a solar array to meet our
electricity needs.

It was well worth having the Backhoe and tractor - for three people, some jobs
are much easier when you have a machine to help (such as digging a wide long
trench).

------
ambiate
All those who venture in caves: return to the world, or go mad from
loneliness. Some may seem interesting, but there is a thin line between insane
and interesting.

~~~
mman
Although i said old man in a shack, being isolated is not a requirement. But
for the sake of argument, let's not prohibit it.

------
blackguardx
You can run some easy calculations that show that candles are vastly more
inefficient than electric light. Not surprisingly, they are more expensive
too.

------
skowmunk
Bad news for you buddy:

There is no escaping the system. :)

A relative escape may be possible, but definitely not an absolute and complete
escape from 'all' systems.

You go live in a jungle, you have to adapt yourself to the 'system' there.

You may be able to escape the laws of a more civilized country by living with
some tribes in Papua New Gunea or the Amazon, but you would have to start
living by their laws (formal or informal).

------
knowledgesale
I suggest that you think over opting in for a dentistry/vision/emergency plan.
Old man in a shack is definitely going to need it. Probably this should
constitute the largest part of your suggested spending whatever your
motivation is.

------
andre3k1
Look at it from a start-up perspective, either you bootstrap with $0 invested
or you raise money (more than $10k).

The same project can be had with no money or a lot of money. Once you burn
through $10k you will only want more money.

------
rfugger
Just go live in a shack and don't deal with other people unless you really
need to. No need for $10k.

------
johnnyg
No. <http://www.survivalblog.com>

------
swah
Respect if you do it because you're harmful to society, childish if its
because society is harmful to you.

~~~
mman
I think it is neither of these. Well, i am somewhat of an asshole, i guess,
but I want to study math and physics.

~~~
swah
For that, what are the advantages of a cave, comparing to a silent library?

Also, toilets instead of holes and toilet paper instead of leaves.

~~~
mman
I have to sleep somewhere that is legal and that doesn't annoy people, and
also to not be dependent on others. This means no panhandling, etc.

~~~
swah
You just recalled me of a documentary that showed chinese (IIRC) folks
sleeping in LAN houses because it was the cheapest thing for them. A nice idea
I must say.

~~~
staunch
Probably Japanese: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_cafe_refugee>

