
Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship - mcone
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/29/technology/china-apple-censorhip.html
======
coldcode
You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period.
Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know)
and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide
what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything
without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what
the leadership of China wants in China, but in reality the only alternative is
to abandon China to those who will do what they are ordered to. The market is
too large to leave. If you don't agree to their rules you don't play in their
sandbox.

~~~
bilbo0s
I suppose there are the questions of law and fiduciary duties.

If it's the law, it's the law. In China, it's the law to remove VPN apps. I
suppose it's really not much different than the laws in the US that compel
companies to give the government access to my information if they request such
access. It's just the law, it's not really Facebook and Google trying to screw
me.

All that said, I think what most posters are advocating is maybe for Apple to
just leave China.

And, of course, that's where the other shoe drops...

with the question of fiduciary duties.

So yeah... I see your point... because of the legal issues involved, privacy
and access can be tough problems. Not just in China or the US, but elsewhere
in the world as well.

*EDITS for grammar

~~~
fauigerzigerk
_> I suppose it's really not much different than the laws in the US that
compel companies to give the government access to my information if they
request such access._

It is very different. Censorship with the main objective of keeping an
unelected regime in power by suppressing free speech is not the same as any
problematic side-effects of fighting crime and terrorism. Granted, there are
some grey areas such as oppression of sexual minorities, but the distinction
between political oppression and crime fighting should not be lost completely.

The least Apple could do is allow sideloading of apps.

~~~
smichel17
Basically this. Apple's walled garden puts them in a position of power where
their only choices are comply or leave. By contrast, Google could ship an
Android phone in China with vpn features removed, ban vpn apps from the play
store, and I would still be able to install a 3rd party vpn app.

------
janandonly
What happens in China now could happen in 5 years in the rest of the world.

For "security" reasons or "fight agains terrorism", while it's really a fight
between those in power and those who want power :-(

The need for IPFS, webRTC and other non-centralized protocols becomes more
pressing every day, to defend everyone who is stuck in between.

~~~
QAPereo
there isn't going to be a technical solution to the problem of terrible world
governments, the only real solution is going to be to change the governments.

~~~
jmiserez
In democratic countries, at least you have that possibility. Elsewhere it
might not be possible at all. Nationwide censorship and surveillance are
probably pretty effective technical “solutions” for preventing change.

------
pipio21
Just common sense, given that the China gobertment has made usage of VPNs
illegal.

What do you expect?

People in China could continue using app store accounts created in other
countries as usual.

And most educated people continue using VPNs too. Normal people are becoming
experts in encription, security...

It worries me more that countries like the UK and the US want to follow China,
in that order.

~~~
humanrebar
I expect Apple to respect universal human rights regardless of the context.
Freedom of speech is foundational.

And this isn't a China-vs-the-West thing. The idea that people deserve and
need to be able to communicate freely predates the current governments of both
China and the U.S.

~~~
leppr
It's been known for years that Apple is actively against freedom of speech
when it comes to its marketplace. Why would you expect it to make an exception
for China ?

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Freedom of speech only applies to the government. Apple can keep whatever they
want out of their store.

~~~
briandear
Why is this downvoted? It’s a factual statement. Freedoms of speech (in the
U.S.) is that Congress shall make no law..

A radio station that refuses to play my song or let me talk isn’t violating my
freedom of speech.

Facebook censoring “hate speech” is not violating freedom of speech. Hate
speech is protected speech under the U.S. constitution. (Before anyone brings
up Schenck v. United States, that case ruled that speech that present imminent
danger (yelling fire in a crowded theater) was not protected, but hate speech
doesn’t generally reach a level of immediate danger.

So if we are to criticize Apple for curating their store, we must criticize
Facebook for curating their platform. We must also crisis Google for their
curation of advertising content as well. Because unless hate speech says “kill
<some group> today at 5pm at the local market,” it’s broadly protected under
the U.S. constitution. What that means that practically every single company
in the U.S. is guilty of “violating free speech” – IF they were the
government, but they are not and thus aren’t violating anyone’s right to free
speech.

~~~
glomph
Because no one was talking about the United States or the Constitution.
Freedom of speech is a broader concept than just what is set out in US law. In
fact the conversation was quite specifically not about the US and not about
that formulation of freedom of speech.

------
bobjordan
My business has an AWS China account and below is the email I received on
Friday. It is definitely a crackdown year, on several fronts even other than
the internet. Like this year I was forced to pay a $300 fine because I didn't
report to the police station within 24-hrs of re-entry while living in my own
leased home. Now, my company is not huge but I've employed +100 people and we
pay a lot of taxes, social insurance, provide jobs for local families. They do
not give a shit about that you will follow the laws of China to do business
here or you will be thrown out.

Overall, this year has really chilled my enthusiasm for getting too
comfortable with the thought of living here the rest of my working life. In
this age with so many elite Chinese being trained and educated abroad, it is
really hard to beleive things are going in this directon. I mean, IT Is
already hard enough, we need a server in our office that is connected to
another server in France, and we need it reliable and without issue. Making
this type of stuff even harder on us as a business is really irritating. I
really do tell myself every day "if it was easy everybody would be doing it".

"Dear Customer, According to the telecom regulations and the requirement of
MIIT/MPS and Internet supervision agency, please check up two parts below. •
The illegal “over the wall” proxy sites and provide hosting campaign service
for illegal “over the wall” proxy sites. • All main domains which don’t have
ICP recorded number via MIIT and All websites which have illegal content. We
will continuously receive notification from the regulators to close such
services or shut down server deployment immediately. In case your will be
involved in any consequences of such violation, please stop immediately if you
have such illegal services and deployment. Thanks for your understanding and
cooperation.

Regards, AWS China (Beijing) Region operated by SINNET"

------
adamnemecek
Hey Timmy, what was all that talk about customer security?

[https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/](https://www.apple.com/customer-
letter/)

And here I was, almost believing you.

~~~
chroem-
This is arguably worse than if they had done nothing at all to supposedly
protect user privacy. Now it's clear that Apple was just playing the crowd to
win sales.

Why should we even believe that they aren't covertly cooperating with the FBI?

~~~
pdimitar
That's hardly an Apple-specific issue though. I'd argue we shouldn't trust any
corporation -- like Google, Amazon, Facebook as well -- and assume they are in
bed with the agencies from the get go.

------
Tepix
You don't need their closed app store. Free workaround:

• apply for a free Apple developer account,

• compile your own copy of
[https://github.com/mtigas/OnionBrowser](https://github.com/mtigas/OnionBrowser)
or [https://github.com/yuyao110120/ShadowVPN-
iOS](https://github.com/yuyao110120/ShadowVPN-iOS) and

• install it on your own iDevice

~~~
gareim
You get 10 days before your app stops working and you have to do it again.
It's a real pain in the butt.

~~~
yoda_sl
Where do you get that from? Creating app with your own dev account can run on
your device for more than 10 days...

[Update] ok I just checked the limitation of the free dev account, and yes
because of certificates it is only valid for 7 days... I was thinking about
the regular $$ account.

~~~
j605
It is idiotic that you can't compile and install something on a device you
own.

~~~
valine
I would pay a large premium for an iPhone that came jailbroken.

------
abecedarius
If you build in the ability to censor, you can't disclaim responsibility when
a state makes you do it. We'll see the same sort of thing in Russia, the UK,
and so on. Apple can still act, if they wish, by not locking down their users.
I know that'd be a big step for them.

~~~
skybrian
To be clear, "ability to censor" is basically just having an app store.
Companies can decide what they'll include in their store, which means
governments can also regulate what they're allowed to sell (or block the app
store altogether in that country).

That doesn't mean app stores are inherently evil; they still do a lot of good
by making sure people can easily find and pay for high-quality apps.

As you say, a reasonable alternative would be to allow side loading of apps,
so that people can find and load apps distributed via various peer-to-peer
ways, without Apple being responsible.

~~~
Darthy
To be clear, what you mean by "having an app store" is "reverting 40 years of
established software usage best practice and downgrade to dictatorial way
where a central company can control everything".

Words have power. "App store" sounds up-beat, friendly and inclusive. But the
rules behind what Apple has established that "App store" actually means are
anything but.

~~~
skybrian
Apple didn't invent the app store and weren't many mobile phones before the
iPhone (running J2ME or whatever) even more restrictive?

Also, Android doesn't restrict side-loading in this way so I disagree that
restricting side-loading is an essential feature of an app store as commonly
understood.

~~~
Darthy
No, phones before the iPhone running J2ME had side-loading. Some carrier
turned that off, but if you bought directly from the manufacturers you got a
phone that you could control and do anything with by yourself, without any
third party stopping you. Manufacturers felt confident that their J2ME
sandboxing stopped apps from doing anything evil.

I feel like you didn't really answer my point, though. I criticize you for
using an upbeat word to make a dictatorial system sound good. And you counter
by talking about something entirely else, word definition and word history.

------
libeclipse
What a despicable joke of a country. And shame on Apple for aiding them while
they made such a massive deal of user rights in the US.

~~~
fiblye
In America, they're still free to openly complain about American policies. Try
that in China and you'll be gone before the week is over and a state-sponsored
company will take your place

~~~
stephengillie
Complaining is the opiate of the masses.

------
saurik
They also require a paid developer subscription to get access to the Network
Extensions capability (needed to build a VPN protocol extension) in order to
make sure people who develop these apps can't just provide IPA files for
normal users in China to "sideload" using tools such as my Cydia Impactor.

~~~
izacus
So they go out of their way to prevent users to avoid censorship by themselves
on their devices?

------
mauvehaus
This from the company that removed the headphone jack from their phones while
crowing about the "courage" involved in making the decision.

I'm not going to pretend to believe that Tim Cook's letter (cited elsewhere)
was much more than a PR move in a country they were unlikely to face any
substantial consequences for (at least publicly) standing up to the
government, or that I really believe that corporations have a responsibility
to protect basic human rights (though it would be nice if they did). Still,
it'd be nice if corporations didn't try to have it both ways and maintain an
image as a courageous force for good when it was convenient while washing
their hands of responsibility for any actual action when it became difficult.

~~~
patrickaljord
Aren't they forced to follow Chinese laws when doing business there? Not
saying what they did is moral but it seems the moral question here is whether
they be doing business in China, not whether they should be following the laws
while doing business their because they don't really have a choice once they
decide to do business there. Google for example doesn't do business there so
they don't have to respect censorship laws.

~~~
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC
There is no such thing as "once they decide". Once you notice that what you
are doing is immoral, you have to revise previous decisions.

Also, it's not that cut and dry: If your product actually contributes to the
wealth of the country, they cannot just ban you without hurting themselves.
Just because they legally can, does not mean you don't have any leverage.

~~~
simonh
How many of Apple's devices are manufactured in China? The Chinese Government
could completely cripple Apple in a second. It really isn't Apple that has the
leverage.

Censorship is fundamental to Chinese government policy. It's totally non-
negotiable. You either do as they say, or you don't operate in China. No
negotiation, no compromise. Given the manufacturing situation China has Apple
by the short and curlies, and Cooke knows it.

~~~
sievebrain
Yet somehow Google manages to make phones and not cooperate with China.

~~~
simonh
Google also doesn't violate Chinese censorship or data disclosure laws, which
apparently is what it's being suggested that Apple do.

Of course Google do this by not operating in China at all any more. But what
is being suggested is that Apple at least threaten to violate Chinese law or
attempt to apply pressure to the Chinese government. Even Google didn't try
that when they did operate in China, because frankly they're not insane and
they had employees in China, and presumably didn't want any of those employees
gracing the hospitality of the Chinese police force.

------
nsxwolf
Why hasn't iMessage been blocked in China? Does apple run a special
compromised version of it there, or has China simply not made banning it a
priority yet, or is iMessage simply not as secure as we have been told?

~~~
JulienSchmidt
Most likely Apple cooperates with the respective agencies as requested by
Chinese laws. If not yet, they will have to start very soon or iMessage will
also be blocked.

Are there any signs of Censorship on iMessage so far? Are terms that are known
to be blocked on WeChat, QQ etc (e.g. 法轮功 / Falun Gong) still working on
iMessage?

------
maxxxxx
That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it
if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything
else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's
happening in China now.

~~~
microcolonel
> That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it
> if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything
> else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time,
> it's happening in China now.

Well, if you want your government to be powerful enough to enforce laws
against corporations, then corporations will not be powerful enough to defy
your government.

You can't keep your cake and eat it too.

~~~
marak830
Or perhaps corporations could have a little backbone. Perhaps in their mission
statements say that they will prefer to lose profits if it means not trading
in a country that performs (x)

Edit: (sametmax) I can't seem to reply - I think the chains too long ? Either
way:

Doesn't that mean we should actually be a little upset ? Look I'm no sjw
freaking out over everything, nor do I run around scrwing boycot, but perhaps
just a little frustration and some constructive argument may lead someone to a
better idea of how to handle/fox/or seeup with something.

God's know I don't have an answer, but it does worry me.

~~~
sametmax
I wish.

But...

Most people don't have the guts. Why would you expect corporation to have it ?
This is the reality of the world, most people don't care about making the
moral choice and will choose short term benefits. Getting sick over this is
like crying because the sky's color displeases you.

Spend your energy trying to improve things at your level. This is all you can
do.

~~~
humanrebar
Well, our level includes working towards agreement in the HN community that
aiding in censorship is bad.

~~~
sametmax
Fair enough. But I don't think complaining about it is going to help. Pointing
it out yes, but the tone need to be more neutral if you want the crowd from
this site to take it seriously.

~~~
humanrebar
I'm not saying this is the topic to be aggressive in, but neutrality and
dispassion aren't always virtues. For example:

"I understand why you think apartheid is best. I just personally wish you
would reconsider."

~~~
ArialAnemone
Pre-apartheid: SA has working first world infrastructure

Post-apartheid: SA is mired in governmental incompetence and degradation of
infrastructure. Not to mention highly elevated levels of murder and rape.

:^)

------
imron
Alternative title:

Apple complies with law in countries where it operates.

~~~
sandstrom
Saying that that it complies with the local laws is a weak argument. This is
about moral and ethics.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-
Jewish_legislation_in_pre...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-
Jewish_legislation_in_prewar_Nazi_Germany)

~~~
differentView
The alternative is to stop doing business in China, is that what you want
Apple to do?

~~~
sandstrom
I'm saying that this is a weak argument:

    
    
        Apple complies with law in countries where it operates.
    

Instead one should value the act itself:

    
    
        Is it right or wrong to aid in restricting ~1b people's access to knowledge and information 
        about their government's past deeds[1], current affairs[2], corruption[3], etc.
    

I think it's wrong, other may think it's right.

But saying they're following local laws is similar to saying that someone is
just respecting German WW2-laws on Jews or apartheid in South Africa.

\---

[1] Tiananmen Square

[2] Food safety
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal))

[3] High-official corruption
([http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/26/world/asia/china-blocks-
we...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/26/world/asia/china-blocks-web-access-
to-new-york-times.html))

------
mnm1
The entire Apple platform is designed to restrict the user and prevent
anything that Apple doesn't want to happen from happening. This is Apple's
decision only and it's in line with all their other decisions that restrict a
user's freedom on their closed, non free platform. If people wanted a platform
that would run whatever software they wanted without restrictions, they
shouldn't have bought Apple period. That's just dumb to expect a closed, non
free platform that censors by default to suddenly do a 180 turn and become
free. But hey, it's not like people haven't been saying this for decades now
is it? Oh right, people like RMS have but most consumers are too stupid to
listen. This is the outcome.

------
saimiam
I see a lot of very cogent arguments defending Apple as only following the law
when it comes to VPN laws of China.

I'm not old enough to know this first hand but I believe the anti-apartheid
movement against South Africa was started by students and spread to the
corporate world before world governments stepped up to ban doing business with
South Africa.

This seems to be a specific example of corporate advocacy leading governmental
policy.

If the Chinese government's rule over the Chinese people is so egregious to
the world, I think Apple would be on solid ground if they refused to do
business in China and also refused to do business with Chinese companies
outside China.

~~~
dionian
Their shareholders would flip out, no? Even the Chinese people who don’t
support the govt would lament the loss of using the phone.

~~~
skc
I doubt this very, very much.

It's a phone, not a body part.

------
skybrian
They probably had to do it to keep the official store available in China, but
this is why supporting side-loading of apps like Android does would be a good
idea.

------
humanrebar
At what point does Apple itself bear some responsibility for censoring people?

EDIT: Would downvoters please explain their objection to the question? "Apple
isn't to blame" and some thoughtful elaboration would be better than just
downvoting.

~~~
melling
You either follow local laws or you leave. How did it work out for Google?
Google took a stand and now they’re going back.

~~~
jahnu
Parent didn't suggest otherwise. Maybe it's better, i.e. the right thing to
do, to leave a market in an oppressive land?

Personally I think more of Google for doing that.

~~~
threeseed
Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

The USA is hardly a shining example of a country the rest of the world should
be following right now. It is doing plenty of oppressive things that many of
us in the rest of world don't agree with e.g. Paris accord, incarceration
rates, threats against the press.

I don't agree with what China is doing but the "right thing to do" is never so
simple.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The use of what aboutism and moral highground logical fallacies look extremely
crass, especially on HN.

~~~
vetinari
Yes, we prefer _do as I say, not as I do_ here. /s

~~~
seanmcdirmid
No. Whataboutism fallacies were pioneered by the Soviet Union during the Cold
War, but when used by someone in the west, they just come off as looking
extremely insecure and desperate for a workable argument.

So it is a cultural difference. While whataboutisms and moral high ground
fallacies are acceptable in the east, in the west they just signal insecurity
and desperation.

~~~
vetinari
No. The term whataboutism was used as a way to disregard an argument, without
addressing it's point.

It is usable only from the position of arrogance. It has no place in a honest
discussion.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
This was a clear what aboutism that had no argument attached to it. It was the
very definition of a what aboutism, not ambiguous in the slightest. The writer
even starts out with the proverbial glass house! And then states something
about the USA pulling out of the climate accord, which is relevant to
censorship? Even as whataboutisms go, this one is not even on topic.

They could have replaced that whole paragraph by "what aboutism america!" And
no information would have been lost.

Seriously, what aboutisms have no place in serious discussions.

------
vkou
Isn't it wonderful that the iPhone is a walled garden, and with the flick of a
switch, an entire category of software cannot be ran on it?

The fact that this switch exists is the real tragedy here - not the fact that
Apple chose to use it.

------
drefgert
Tech companies must play a long political game and spend their vast fortunes
to lobby, to own media and influence policy and control the message.

Once they do this the will no longer be in conflict with governments and their
policy.

Take note in coming years as the tech barons buy up media to control the
message.

They will of course do this and then the real problem will not be uppity
governments but mega tech corporations who semi covertly run the world.

------
hungra
I love this summary from n-gate.com about this thread

"Apple complies with the law. Hackernews experiences cognitive dissonance at
the thought that there might be an organization capable of telling Apple what
to do. Many thought experiments are performed to try to imagine a world where
a corporation might give a shit about human rights. China's secret police show
up incognito to explain that anyone who disapproves of Chinese law is probably
a Nazi. The rest of the thread is fanfiction about Tim Cook personally
exorcising the evil from Beijing."

------
saurik
They also require a paid developer subscription to get access to the Network
Extensions capability (needed to build a VPN protocol extension) in order to
make sure people who develop these apps can't just provide IPA files for
normal users in China to "sideload" using tools such as my Cydia Impactor.

------
retox
Profits before people, the Apple motto.

------
baozilaile
To all in HN:

It is a huge market which helping the people in China break the GFW (Great
Fire Wall). You can start a startup for that :)

------
Crontab
This is awful, but in England and America, I foresee similar policies will
come - in the name of law, safety, and security.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Neither America nor the U.K. have national firewalls in place.

~~~
fredley
Yet. Theresa May would build one right away if she could (and the first steps
are being taken)

~~~
seanmcdirmid
If she could. But they would need to build those first before considering the
next step of blocking VPNs. See austrailia at risk also. I doubt it would ever
happen in America, however.

------
belltaco
But with Windows/Linux its still possible to install apps on you own, unlike
the locked down app store.

------
oneplane
It's not very surprising considering that it's the local law and everyone will
have to follow it or get out...

It isn't going to actually prevent anyone from tunneling past the great
firewall of course, so it's more like a gesture than an actual effective
decision from the government.

------
w8rbt
So much for 'Think Different', huh?

[https://thisisnotadvertising.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/nel...](https://thisisnotadvertising.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/nelsonmandela.jpg)

------
perfectstorm
Doesn't iPhone supports native VPN in Settings ? How are they going to prevent
users from using that ? I mean it's not as easy as downloading a dedicated app
and logging in but using the Settings app is not much of a work.

------
jonbarker
Couldn't you just do this in China? [https://www.imore.com/how-configure-vpn-
access-your-iphone-o...](https://www.imore.com/how-configure-vpn-access-your-
iphone-or-ipad)

~~~
JulienSchmidt
The problem is that none of the default protocols work in China. Either they
are blocked via DPI in combination with techniques like TCP RST injection /
null-routing of the destination IPs, or they are known to be insecure, like
PPTP (which is why it is removed in iOS 10)

~~~
jonbarker
I was able to use gmail, skype, etc with some pretty basic vpn knowledge in
China.

------
dmritard96
I always wonder about Hong Kong now that it is under the one country two
systems - basically, I wonder if internet censorship will be lessened before
HK internet openness disappears.

------
sipCom19
Apple is free to do what it wants, I'm free not to buy their stuff.

~~~
drefgert
If you're going to take an "I'll not support Apple cause it complies with
Chinese law" position, the ill respect your stance if you stop consuming all
Chinese made products. Unless of course you're position is a deeply selective
one.

------
samcat116
I assume they are still allowing manual VPN configurations right? They are
only removing apps that configure it automatically for you. Not downplaying
the impact of this, just clarifying.

~~~
yegle
No, there are other apps that implemented other types of VPN using
[https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension](https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension)

There are many VPN apps that based on ShadowSocks.

------
secfirstmd
Terrible news.

So lets start tackling the problem and figuring out ways to help the averave
Chinese person evade censorhip without developer accounts and the knowledge to
compile...

------
csomar
Apple tailors to countries. They made an iOS without facetime for Dubai
specifically.

It's a good thing, however, that they are fighting for privacy where they can.

------
bussiere
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I)

------
shpx
Stallman was right.

------
pmarreck
Perhaps some free-speech provision should be part of the Universal Declaration
of Human Rights

~~~
k-mcgrady
Article 19 protects free expression.

~~~
pmarreck
so they just blithely ignore that, got it

------
ComodoHacker
Russia is next. They just have passed a law to ban VPNs and anonymous proxies.

------
gigatexal
I wonder what Orwell would have thought of modern China.

------
joseph4521
Seems that Apple is just following, with much delay, the law of People's
Republic of China. I don't understand why some people think companies should
be above the law.

~~~
humanrebar
> I don't understand why some people think companies should be above the law.

I think certain aspects of justice are above legal frameworks. For instance,
slavery is wrong no matter what the law says. Companies like Apple, by
lobbying the government for various non-business things (gay rights, climate
change, etc.), recognize this.

I think wholesale restriction and manipulation of political speech is just
wrong even if it is legally mandatory. And, while understandable, I'm not sure
(still chewing it over) it's a valid excuse to say that we were just complying
with the law.

~~~
paradite
> For instance, slavery is wrong no matter what the law says.

I hope you realize that you are only saying this because you happen to be born
at this particular point in human civilization.

For a very long time, people thought slavery is right, including the people
who wrote your constitution (assuming your are from US). It is easy to say
that slavery is wrong now, but not in 18th century in the US. Think of China
as the US, a few centuries ago, when human rights are still a concept being
explored.

~~~
humanrebar
> I hope you realize that you are only saying this because you happen to be
> born at this particular point in human civilization.

And you're only saying _that_ because you were born when and where you were.
It's not universally accepted that ethics are relative like that.

Otherwise I'm not sure what you're saying. That slavery was relatively OK in
the 18th century so Apple enforcing government censorship is now, too?

It's also worth pointing out that colonial contemporaries were appalled by
slavery, though they didn't have the power to universally outlaw it.

------
adamnemecek
Hey Timmy, what was all that talk about customer security?

[https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/](https://www.apple.com/customer-
letter/)

And here I was, almost believing you.

You're a coward.

~~~
hoorayimhelping
> _You 're a coward._

While you're calling another man a coward for not living your values, I'm
wondering what you've done to stand up against China that's so fucking brave.

~~~
the8472
> for not living your values

He is pointing out that they are supposedly cook's own values.

------
allenleein
What would Steve Jobs do?

~~~
drefgert
The same. Disobey the government in china, stop making money.

------
bigtoine123
This is horrible, but in England and America, I'm 100% certain that similar
policies will be applied - in the name of law, and public security.

~~~
paradite
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14880796](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14880796)

Deja vu?

------
the_common_man
I find all this outrage about Apple not taking a stand highly amusing.

Practically every single product used in the western world is made in China.
Please report back if you can get rid of all those products at a _personal_
level. For a start, looks like I have throw this laptop away. Not going to
happen.

~~~
em3rgent0rdr
The mere use of Chinese products is not the problem being discussed.

------
microcolonel
Next China will outlaw Linux for having an IPSec implementation in it, lol.
What a sad country that believes liberty comes after wealth, and in relative
terms may never have either.

~~~
dis-sys
GFW managed to screw IPSec ages ago. It is also worth pointing out that the
GFW itself is built on top of Linux systems.

