
How Bodega typifies Silicon Valley’s cultural ignorance - pmcpinto
https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/15/how-bodega-typifies-silicon-valley-s-cultural-ignorance/
======
gcatalfamo
I don't want to always sound critic of the USA, but if here in Italy you
opened an activity with real or supposed _insert your favourite heritage here_
style, no one would ever care.

You would get awful reviews if you weren't doing a good job of it, but aside
from that, why would anyone really be offended?

If you guys were coherent, places like Olive Garden should never exist. And I
am not even starting on how much of a shit job Olive Garden is doing of trying
to look Italian, because I don't care.

Europe, with such a rich mix of cultures should be a trigger-hell for you
Americans.

(I am being sarcastic) How can you really cope with all this?

Edit: to add insult to injury, how should we Italians feel about being always
portrayed as "pizza, mafia, gobbledygook mamma mia". It's so far from our
reality, we don't care.

Edit2: better phrasing

~~~
S_A_P
Rightly or wrongly, there are people here in the US that make it a hobby to
become offended and make a big deal of how offensive it is. Obviously it would
do everyone some good to use discernment with their actions, but everyone
should also not try to look for how you can spin something that was probably
tongue in cheek into something offensive. Is bodega a great idea? Probably
not, but I don't know what the entire offering was, maybe the idea got funded
because they were interested in a specific part of the whole idea. I would
like to see people in the US realize that someone is going to do something
they don't like and there is an option to ignore the behavior.

~~~
TeMPOraL
The problem is, unfortunately, becoming a world-wide phenomenon, because the
entire media industry runs on generating outrage to capture the audience.

------
sylvinus
> If you're online in any way whatsoever, you likely know I'm talking about
> Bodega.

I'm online in many ways, and no, I didn't know that.

When writing an article on cultural ignorance, try to be mindful of your own
echo chamber as well!

------
ilamont
If the startup were called "Vendoogle" or "Quikbox" I don't think there would
be so much outrage.

Local mom & pop stores have been under assault by all kinds of well-funded
rivals for decades, including CVS, Target Mini-Stores, gas station franchises,
and bottling companies working with vending machine distributors.
Nevertheless, the little corner stores still keep ticking in many areas thanks
to goods and services not offered by these bigger competitors, including
specialty food, extended hours, and money transfer services.

However, if Target were to rebrand their mini-stores as "Red Bodegas" or
something similar there would be similar outrage. It's one thing to compete,
it's another thing to play dirty by usurping the little guy's brand or
throwing your weight around too much in a very obvious or threatening way.

If I were McDonald and Rajan, I would use this opportunity to rebrand to
something more acceptable, offer a mea culpa, and maybe even figure out some
way to work with real bodegas and local stores (shared distribution for
certain items to lower costs? Machine learning for real bodegas' inventory?
"Local" goods? Spillover sales?)

------
Eridrus
This is basically a fancy vending machine, so I'm not really clear on why this
got funded, but on the other hand vending machines are a thing. They don't
actually seem to be trying to displacement bodegas from the get go, but rather
putting their machines in upscale places like lobbies and gyms, but I'm still
a bit confused by this whole thing, is the premise that these places are more
likely to accept a pretty vending machine?

~~~
pault
I don't know, I can think of several times in the last week I would have been
very happy to have a vending machine with toilet paper and coffee creamer in
the lobby of my building. The only corner store nearby went out of business a
few months ago.

~~~
Eridrus
Sure, everyone wants convenient things, but why do they need fancy tech
development (they're planning to use computer vision), and what makes them
think they will be able to make the economics work?

Putting these inside building lobbies means they can serve far fewer people
than a regular vending machine; their costs have to be far better than a
regular vending machine for this plan to make sense.

~~~
hsod
> Putting these inside building lobbies means they can serve far fewer people
> than a regular vending machine

Huh? Lots (probably a vast majority) of vending machines are in building
lobbies or otherwise semipublic spaces.

------
kmonad
Not many people here seem to have read the article, or read so quickly to
misinterpret it. This is not a rant about 'appropriation' or naming choices -
that's only one of the facets of ignorance by the founders discussed in the
piece. More importantly, the author makes their case that some ideas, in
particular that of a vending machine, are so disconnected from the daily lives
of what the author might call 'normal people' that it's offensive to dump
significant money into them (or wasted on them, I suppose). That latter part
is, I believe, the real offending bit.

~~~
imartin2k
One could argue then that the author failed to get the point across, even if
the point might have merit.

It's any author's task to make their cases in a way so that people pay
attention. In this case, this maybe failed. As I mentioned in my other
comment: Using terms such as "offensive" when trying to make a serious point
to fact- and argument-oriented people (which one typically finds on HN) might
not work very well.

It's better to be critical of the author's approach to making the case than to
assume that the problem are the readers.

~~~
kmonad
hm, that is a fair point. yet, don't you also think that it is a little
endemic on hn, and knee-jerk reaction, to jump on certain phrases? like...a
trigger :P?

would you think this is a universal response (and therefore problem) or
perhaps only among a certain readership? would an author not have to take into
account the average response to their phrasing (or that of the audience they
address)? if this is not the hn readership, then I would think a word like
'offensive' is comprising a lot of meaning in a concentrated way (ofc you can
still disagree with the judgment, that the scenario is truly offensive).

------
wink
When reading about things like this I'm always wondering if I'm the odd one
out or others' perceptions are really off.

Background: I live in Munich, Germany which grew from ~1.3m to 1.5m people in
my lifetime. I've never lived in the city center, and never outside. Just in
"normal" neighborhoods, as I'd call them. And the same discussion about "brick
and mortar book stores" and their downfall and people lamenting their demise
and now this same thing. I've only ever had one of those "corner stores" near
where I lived and it was basically a small supermarket. You went there in
emergencies (shops here are only open from 7:00 to 20:00 at most, mind you)
because there wasn't much stuff. I guess a few people went there exclusively
but the selection was really limited.

TLDR: How can I live in a big city and still have never have experienced any
upside to this? I'm not saying corner stores are bad at all, but I really
don't get the fuss.

~~~
kstenerud
In America (especially the East coast), the mom & pop bodegas serve as
impromptu social gathering places for the locals, as the store and its owners
are very much a part of the community. Taking that away feels a lot like
ripping apart a family.

~~~
Laforet
Sounds like general stores in small towns closing down because a Walmart has
opened next door.

~~~
dagw
To be fair, a lot of people are seriously angry at Walmart about that as well.

------
humanrebar
> Two Ex-Googlers Want To Make Bodegas And Mom-And-Pop Corner Stores Obsolete

It's my understanding that bodegas (gas stations in car towns) make their
money from "unsavory" things: nicotine, alcohol, and lottery tickets.

Unless Bodega is planning on stocking vending machines with this stuff (they
can't; it's generally illegal), corner stores will be fine.

~~~
7Z7
Actually, and this might be different where you live, but it's my
understanding that shops don't really make any profit on
cigarettes/alcohol/lottery tickets, and that they are only sold to entice you
to buy other things (ie. if they didn't stock them, people would shop
elsewhere).

~~~
colorint
I'm acquainted with the general manager of a local hardware chain in my small
town that used to run a gas station. The sense I have from talking to him is,
the gas station shut down because 1. Kroger put in a gas station that nobody
can compete with, and 2. they couldn't sell liquor (because they were across
the street from the high school). The gas station also used to have a
successful auto repair shop attached to it, so apparently the gas and liquor
problems were severe enough that even the auto shop couldn't justify
continuing to operate the location---though, I gather, the Kroger gas station
was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Obviously this is just one gas station in one small town, but then that's
probably all there is to this discussion.

------
0x27081990
There’s a lot of hate and resentment in that article. Sure, maybe Bodega isn’t
the brightest startup. But who cares? If it’s a bad idea, nature/market will
make it go away.

If bodegas/corner stores whatever are worth it, people will continue to buy
from there and Bodega nor any other “shiny” startup will stand a chance
against them.

My guess is she doesn’t believe in freemarket and thinks that someone can
simply kill corner stores by throwing money at a startup.

------
forgottenpass
I think the more interesting point goes unspoken: nothing short of
_appropriation_ is big enough to be a touchpoint for rejecting a run-of-the-
mill Valley product.

 _even just the startup 's name "Bodega" told us locals and natives -- the
involuntary first-wave recipients of Silicon Valley's fucked up experiments
with our lives -- all we needed to know._

 _FIRST_ wave? You think this is first? The fact the battle is over branding
at all is the biggest sign the war is already over regarding "Silicon Valley's
fucked up experiments with our lives."

\---

There is nothing new about saying the Valley's products are out of touch, or
positioned to change the physical landscape of society in a destructive way,
or replacing personal interaction with web forms and call trees, or do damage
to user's psyche just to maximize engagement and ARPU. Likewise there is
nothing new about "internet threatens mom & pop business model." And in the
grand scheme of things, bodeags are of the category "mom and pop".

Has everyone become this accustomed and propagandized to the inevitability of
business models crushing unnecessary positive aspects of the end user's
experience/culture in the name of profit? Where the "we'll do it cheaper, so
just forget everything you loose in the process" idea is so ingrained that the
only thing that can light up anyone's brain anymore is crossing into the hot
political topic of appropriation?

------
feintruled
That was an unnecessarily angry article. A much more measured one (though
still very cutting) one is here:
[https://www.eater.com/2017/9/13/16302386/bodega-startup-
corn...](https://www.eater.com/2017/9/13/16302386/bodega-startup-corner-store-
silicon-valley)

Also has some very valid sounding criticism of their entire business model.

------
imartin2k
I don't take anyone seriously who casually calls something like Bodega an
"offensive idea", as if this is the most natural thing to do. A name choice ca
be bad without the whole idea "being offensive". Lazy labels are bad for
discourse.

~~~
kmonad
The article is not centered around the choice of name, it's an example. The
offensiveness, to the author, comes from more than that.

~~~
imartin2k
It's the idea that "offensiveness" even is a reasonable critical descriptor of
a startup idea that i see as a problem. This is such a fluid term which lacks
any clear, objective boundaries. Everybody has their own view on what's
offensive (apart from some areas in which somewhat of a consensus exists about
offensiveness, mostly regarding pejorative expressions). Some people have a
thick skin and find nothing offensive, others consider any opposing argument
presented in a determined tone offensive. And then there is a huge space in
between.

Therefore expanding the scope of "offensiveness" more and more is, in my eyes,
a problematic trend.

~~~
kmonad
The waste of money on a stupid idea is offending the author in light of the
increasing issue of wealth discrepancy and homelessness in SF. This may not be
offensive to all, but is not inappropriate usage.

~~~
imartin2k
It might not be inappropriate to you, but I'd argue it's counterproductive to
use it. If the idea is to find allies outside of certain digital echo chambers
of very like-minded people who all would instanly agree on the offensiveness,
then it's not working, as outside of such groups, the concepts of what's
offensive and what's not are very different.

It's like someone highly involved in church talks to non-religious people on
the street in the same way as to members of the church, assuming that they by
definition have the same context & associations. This assumption then could be
considered a sign of ignorance from the church representative, who seemingly
isn't even aware of what he/she is doing.

------
pault
The author literally dehumanizes the founders _and all tech workers_ , calling
them "machines" and "things in suits". What a terrible, clickbaity article.

~~~
falsedan
"things in human suits", actually. This is an apt description of some tech
workers I've worked with, and some of the commantari here.

------
hsod
Pretty lazy piece, mostly full of easy jabs and containing very little
argumentation.

"Bodega isn't just an offensive idea, it's an idea so bad and obviously
worthless it's maddening."

I can (academically) understand how Bodega's rollout was offensive but I don't
see how it's a worthless idea. Unlike the author, not everybody has 24-hour
convenience stores just down the street.

If they had one of these in my building I'd use it every week.

------
LyndsySimon
It occurs to me that without the apparent anger of the author, I would likely
have never heard of "Bodega". They would have died quietly and never made an
impact on my life. Now I know who they are, who founded the company, and what
they're trying to accomplish.

You literally cannot buy marketing this effective.

------
kstenerud
People don't actively set out to be this callous; it just happens as you
become more and more insulated from the real world, and the divide between
those driving the country and those living in it widens. The French Revolution
is an extreme example.

------
gadders
A lot of new innovations put someone else out of work. How is this any
different from Buggy Whip Makers or (in the near future) Lorry Drivers being
unemployed?

To be clear, unemployment like that isn't great but I'm not sure why this is a
special case.

------
richmarr
> _Can you imagine handing your bank details to these clowns?_

On the whole this is an informative and well written explanation of the
reaction to Bodega, but I don't think commentary like this is helpful.

~~~
falsedan
Could you imagine the point-of-view of someone who did find this helpful? And
then, the opinion of this hypothetical reader would hold of the Bodega clowns?

To me, the commentary helps call out how insincere and non-genuine the quoted
text is.

~~~
richmarr
> _Could you imagine the point-of-view of someone who did find this helpful?_

Who would this "bank details" comment help, and how, and why does someone's
point of view affect whether it's helpful?

> _To me, the commentary helps call out how insincere and non-genuine the
> quoted text is._

There's plenty to discuss on the branding, commercial model, and social
implications without attempting to smear them with vague implications of
either technical incompetence/negligence or some kind of fraud/ethical risk.

Perhaps I've misunderstood it and there's an interpretation of this "bank
details" line that's grounded in some evidence rather than being an
unnecessary smear.

~~~
falsedan
Taking this as a 'no' then.

~~~
richmarr
> _Taking this as a 'no' then._

Take it as a 'I don't consider your question as stated to be meaningful'.

~~~
falsedan
It's a empathy exercise, not a question? You implicitly asked, "who would this
statement about bank accounts be helpful for?", and I suggest that you try to
think of someone.

~~~
richmarr
> _It 's a empathy exercise, not a question? You implicitly asked, "who would
> this statement about bank accounts be helpful for?", and I suggest that you
> try to think of someone._

The question I asked you was a literal question, not an empathy exercise. By
all means suggest a way that anyone might be helped by this apparently-
unevidenced smear.

It may comfort people to read things that support their worldview, but I don't
agree that it helps them.

[Edit: changed questions to question as I only asked one]

~~~
falsedan
I was talking about the question I asked you:

> _Could you imagine the point-of-view of someone who did find this helpful?_

I felt that your response didn't try to answer it, and thus I thought you
cannot imagine such a person & see things from their point-of-view.

~~~
richmarr
> _I was talking about the question I asked you_

Yep, and I've explained at length now that your question needs clarifying
before any kind of answer can be meaningful.

You asked me to empathise with the views of people helped by the author's
apparent smear. I'm sincerely asking you; who are these people you're asking
me to empathise with, and how have they been helped?

Without that this is all drearily hypothetical and meaningless.

------
Top19
Good article, reminded me of Gawker/ValleyWag in a lot of ways.

------
TeMPOraL
Seriously, out of all the problems this start-up represents, the author chose
to focus on _cultural appropriation_? Now the article did touch on other
things as well, but the central point leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The
author seems disconnected from reality, too. Want to talk about the real
problem? Start with how such companies will affect the unskilled labour
market.

Also: people publishing these articles are - like always - fast to write about
how the tech culture is perceived, but also stubbornly refuse to take the
responsibility for the fact that _they 're who create that perception in the
first place_. Juicero and Bodega are one but thousands of startups in SV. Yet
they define the tech culture through them... because writing about those gives
them most outrage-driven clicks, in a self-reinforcing loop of caricature.

I defer to SSC for the much saner critique of SV:
[http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/11/silicon-valley-a-
realit...](http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/11/silicon-valley-a-reality-
check/)

------
hownottowrite
How is this "situation" with Bodega any different than the destruction of
small town shops (and small towns in general) over the last 50 years?

This article could easily be retitled: "How This Article Typifies Urban
Cultural Ignorance of the World Beyond the City Walls."

~~~
falsedan
> _How is this "situation" with Bodega any different than the destruction of
> small town shops?_

The $2.5MM funding for a bad vending machine which will only work in cities,
in the face of extreme income inequality.

~~~
hownottowrite
Don't get me wrong, I think Bodega is an exceptionally stupid idea. What
bothers me is the outrage about the potential loss of these small shops in
urban areas when absolutely zero concern was paid to the eventual shredding of
the social fabric of rural communities. The author of the article does not
address this, even in passing.

~~~
falsedan
I guess the cause of that isn't 2 techlife 'product' guys with a ton of other
people's money (which they got on the off-chance they completely disrupt the
market).

Gutting of small towns is done with multi-year business strategies decided in
the boardrooms & committees of giant corporations for shareholder benefit:
also bad, but less offensive.

------
omegote
This article is gold. I honestly hope the startup bubble bursts soon enough so
this kind of crap finishes one and for all. Too much money has been wasted in
these "companies" that could've been used for better purposes.

------
Divver
When I first saw that initial article of them mentioning their startup which
was titled: “ Two Ex-Googlers Want To Make Bodegas And Mom-And-Pop Corner
Stores Obsolete “ I already knew it was doomed. I mean an upper middle class
Caucasian guy and an upper middle class South Asian guy who previously worked
at Google make this startup with the idea of “making mom and pop corner stores
obsolete” And they name the startup “Bodega” whose name has Latino roots....

How can these two be so tone deaf and insensitive to how people will react to
this?

This sounds cruel and bad just from the phrasing of the headline. It’s like
they didn’t use any common sense and have no heart for local businesses.

I just don’t understand why a decent amount of these Silicon Valley techies
are so time deaf? Did they grow up with silver spoons in their mouths?

How can you be so smart technically yet so culturally tone deaf at the same
time? I would have thought sharp critical thinking and common sense would
apply to more than just technical problems...

You can complain about how people are overreacting and perhaps you have a
point but that doesn’t change the fact that people will overreact.

Why are so many upper middle class and rich people so disconnected from the
poor and middle class?

I’m fairly well off now but I still remember what it was like when my family
was poor when my parents first immigrated from Malaysia (we were racial and
religious minorities and Malaysia’s government discriminates against
racial/religious minorities so my parents left) back in the mid 90s...

and we had to go to food banks in Michigan to get some food when my dad’s two
menial jobs didn’t make enough.

And I also remember when my family was middle class (about 60K) back in Idaho.
The middle class life was much better than when we were poor (no food security
issues and we had a nice house) and we got a smartphone back when I was in
high school. (Only one smartphone for the family, more than one was too
expensive, they let me have it because I was the oldest).

So even though I’m upper middle class now here in Silicon Valley, I still
remember those harder times.

And I want Silicon Valley to make startups to help those poor and middle class
people, instead of trying to displace or hurt those people.

All the machine learning they use in Bodega they could have instead sold that
as a service to local Bodegas to empower their businesses by giving the local
Bodegas a way to know what to stock up on.

And I believe that would have still been profitable but also community
conscious.

Ugh the level of liberal snobby-ness and elitism that you see on Silicon
Valley

Makes me super bummed sometimes when I think about Silicon Valley

When I see the immense income inequality which I didn’t see as much back in
Idaho.

Now I’m partially a hypocrite since I love my upper middle class tech job here
at a top company which I would not have found in Idaho.

I won’t kid. This is the best standard of living and quality of life I’ve ever
experienced so far. I’m very grateful for that.

But the income inequality here reminds me somewhat of what I saw in India when
I visited there for the first time last year.

Like it looked like 1/3 of the population has a gesta upper middle class or
rich life with great stuff.

But 2/3 in like abject poverty.

Now California isn’t as bad as that but out of all the States I’ve lived in or
visited,

It’s the closest to that and perhaps that’s partly due to the fact that our
education system doesn’t prepare Americans for these well paying tech jobs....

But if that’s the case then we need to fix that or we’ll turn into India if we
don’t change or fix our current problems here in the US.

I didn’t vote for Trump but I understood why many of my friends back in Idaho
did because hey feel hopeless in this new changing economy and their education
system didn’t prepare them for it.

Anyway I refuse to believe that it’s impossible to come up with profitable
startup ideas that also empower local communities and businesses.

Sorry I don’t mean to put anyone here down btw this was just a general rant on
Silicon Valley.

I’m really sorry if I came off as rude.

I normally don’t comment on hacker news this is my second comment ever.

Pardon my typos I typed all this on my smartphone.

~~~
Divver
Btw I see a lot of folks here always taking shots at the USA and it looks like
there is a fairly large international audience in this “Hacker News” group.

But as someone who has somewhat extensively studied American history and
government back in the day.

(I’ve read the Constitution, Federalist Papers, works by Thomas Paine, John
Locke, Thomas Jefferson, and Ben Franklin, many of the majority opinions in
many landmark Supreme Court cases, etc etc)

And there is actually a significant amount of misinformation and paranoia
about America and the American government.

Now some of it regarding foreign policy is rightly justified given the actions
by the CIA or military.

But on domestic policy, there is some misinformation every once in a while by
someone’s comments.

Now while I usually prefer to talk about math and engineering stuff,

I feel most folks here already know that stuff and usually someone usually
replies with the correction on Math or engineering issues/topics.

So I’ll limit most of my comments to perhaps pointing out what in my opinion
are half-truths or falsehoods on American domestic policy or legal issues
based on the limited knowledge I have on whatever is being discussed.

Ok no more rants from me for a long while. Apologies!

------
KaiserPro
I _think_ the thing the article was trying to explain was tulip fever.

But then got distracted along the way.

------
dataisfun
Turning this company into a focal point about SV culture is such a ridiculous
exercise in voluntary dyspepsia.

------
harryh
Let's check in with what the actual founders of this company said:

    
    
      Are we trying to put corner stores out of business?
    
      Definitely not. Challenging the urban corner store is not
      and has never been our goal.
    
      Corner stores have been fixtures of their neighborhoods for
      generations. They stock thousands of items, far more than we
      could ever fit on a few shelves. Their owners know what
      products to carry and in many cases who buys what. And
      they’re run by people who in addition to selling everything
      from toilet paper to milk also offer an integral human
      connection to their patrons that our automated storefronts
      never will.
    

This endgadget post is lying clickbait. It's "two minutes hate" for 21st
century America.

~~~
bloat
This quote is in the article, where it makes it clear that the founders only
said it after the backlash had begun.

~~~
harryh
It doesn't matter when they said it. It should be self evident to anyone that
it's true. You can't replace a store with ~1000 products with a vending
machine that stocks ~30.

~~~
bloat
The timing matters because it contradicts something they said before they
starting facing criticism.

"Eventually, centralized shopping locations won't be necessary, because there
will be 100,000 Bodegas spread out, with one always 100 feet away from you."

Whether it's possible or not, it was their aim, according to this statement
anyway.

