

Oracle: the new "axis of evil" against Free software - oscarferdin
http://blogs.adobe.com/open/2010/08/oracle-closed-minds-and-open-source.html

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jacquesm
It's the weirdest experience to see someone aggressively defend free software
on the adobe.com website with Oracle as the target.

~~~
hubb
yeah really. i get the idea that mr mcallister isn't a regular user of flex/
flash builder.

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someone_here
Surprisingly, the flex SDK is open source:
<http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/flexsdk/>

And there is at least one open source IDE that uses it:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FlashDevelop>

Also, the main part of the Flash Player is open source:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamarin_%28JavaScript_engine%29>

And if I understand it correctly, the only reason it's not is due to licensing
and patent stuff that is out of the control of Adobe.

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hubb
the "sdk" is open source, but flex builder isn't (and they managed to break
stuff that worked fine in eclipse). and have fun trying to get the flex
builder plugin to work on linux, or even get the sdk working completely on
linux.

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c1sc0
I tried to do some flex development on linux two years ago from the command-
line & I finally gave up & switched to the IDE. I hate languages where serious
development is only possible from within a specific IDE. The kind of stuff I
was trying to do is now fairly easy with Canvas, so good riddance to Flex!

~~~
bad_user
You can also try OpenLazslo

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c1sc0
We actually looked into that but LZX seemed like too much of a hassle. Bad
call?

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credo
For mega-corporations, "open" is just a marketing buzzword to beat their
opponents with, so it isn't surprising that Adobe writes about "closed minds
and open source".

For Google, open source is a neat technique to assert Android moral
superiority over iOS (even though Google's core assets - search, ads - aren't
open-source, and Android apps such as Google maps aren't open-source)

For Sun, it was a good stick to hit Microsoft with. Making software free and
open-source was their way of competing with Microsoft and making money from
their hardware business.

Adobe is now clearly in the anti-Apple/iPhone camp and needs to ingratiate
itself with Android/Google. It looks like they're the latest company to
discover the magic of the "open" buzzword. Sadly for them, I don't think it
will be much effective

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Herring
> _even though Google's core assets - search, ads - aren't open-source_

Thats probably another example of cargo cult openness. I can't see how anyone
is better served by opening google's client-server stuff.

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_delirium
It'd be nice if access were a little more open a least, on terms similar to
the Bing Search API, though I can see why they don't do that.

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nanairo
Indeed. Adobe had showed the way with the Macromedia's acquisition: swallow
your only other competitor and keep everything close.

In fact one can see _all_ the open source Adobe projects:
<http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/site/Projects>

How many of these were projects that they had and were subsequently open
sourced? I count Tamarin, and possibly a few more which I hadn't heard of.

Why not open source Acrobat? Or Photoshop? Or Flash?

Edit: forgot to add that Oracle may have killed the OpenSolaris's corporate
backing, but it seems intentioned to support quite a lot of Sun's open source
projects. Plus isn't BTRFS coming from Oracle too?

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MartinCron
Open sourcing their _platforms_ like Acrobat and Flash would kind of make
sense, but I have a hard time seeing any upside to opening up Photoshop. It's
not like they can sell service and support for it, as there's an entire
industry around training and books and advice. Maybe they could sell premium
plug-ins, but there's already an industry around that, too.

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cemerick
Remarkably asinine coming from Adobe.

In any case, it would behoove those in the FOSS communities to not adopt
incendiary language like this (except, perhaps, if you happen to be the target
of litigation ;-). It instantly tarnishes any real argument/position, and
accomplishes nothing.

Not that people won't jump up and down about Oracle childishly -- after years
of people spelling 'Microsoft' with a dollar sign, one's expectations take a
hit.

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TallGuyShort
This reaction is uncalled for (especially the addition of the 'Axis of Evil'
in this submission). I believe in open source as much as the next guy, but
just a few weeks ago there was a thread on this board in which the vast
majority of people considered OpenSolaris (with the exception of say, ZFS) had
become a sub-par operating system, that they wouldn't want to use. There were
a few users, yes, but I think it's glaringly obvious that the death of that
project started long before the Oracle aquisition. I'm close friends with
several former Sun employees, all of whom had been extremely unhappy in their
positions with Sun for a few years. Sun was on the verge of complete financial
failure.

Yes, Oracle may be being 'evil', but they know how to run a business and make
a livelihood for their employees. How many of the people that are complaining
actually paid for the real worth of all the Sun products they used? If people
rely on Sun so much for their own businesses, how can they expect someone else
to maintain it for them at a financial loss? These people have no right to
complain about what Oracle is now doing to protect it's investment. Yes, you
can make a living from open source. Was Sun doing a good job of that when
Oracle got them? Absolutely not.

edit: I completely agree that all this was unexpected and is unpleasant, I
just don't think it's fair to attack and blame Oracle.

~~~
jacquesm
If there is an anti-free-software Axis of Evil I would expect Adobe to be on
either end of that axis or smack in the middle. I presume this is working up
to them open sourcing all their code, including photoshop.

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shadowfox
It is far easier to pander to the crowd than to act yourself :)

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bad_user
They haven't sued projects like Gimp yet, or have they?

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TallGuyShort
That's a good point - this is a prime example of the differences between the
GPL and more permissive FOSS licenses.

~~~
jacquesm
Actually it isn't. The Gimp is not exactly a fork of photoshop.

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arethuza
"does anyone high scale actually use oracle"

Oracle is so much more that its database products. Oracle Hyperion being a
good example - it's the market leading financial consolidation/reporting
system. It is _very_ popular in large public companies.

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yardie
I have a friend that is an Oracle DB Architect. One day he tells me he's left
the bank and is working for some Swedish multinational. Tells me the name and
I go "hmm, never heard of them". Website is a simple one page affair with
contact information (in 50 countries) and nothing else.

I tell another friend about this company, he's a family investment planner
(the guy that rich people give money to when they are too rich to work). He
tells me in the hierarchy of multinationals, this one is at or near the top.
You never hear about them because 99% of everything you buy is financed
through them.

And that is Oracle's main clients. Really large companies with incredibly deep
pockets and, most likely, a simple webpage that doesn't describe what they
really do.

Think of it, most people never heard of AIG, until the government had to loan
them $182 billion.

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gizmomagico
So what is this mysterious all-encompassing company then?

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arethuza
I would guess someone like this: <http://www.sek.se/>

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carson
This makes me think Adobe is starting to sweat a little about their reliance
on Java. It underlies a good portion of their tools.

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vijaydev
Which tools?

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anigbrowl
Lots of high-level functionality in their Creative Suite stuff is done in
JavaScript. Photoshop and Illustrator in particular, also quite a lot of After
Effects addons. Then there's a tool called ExtendScript which is a lightly
customized JS implementation/toolchain for messaging and passing projects
between their applications. That's the only coding I ever do nowadays,
actually.

My guess is they're worried about getting hit with a legal brick too, since it
would really mess up their roadmap. Maybe they'll develop a sudden enthusiasm
for Python :-)

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etherael
Java is not JavaScript. the two are entirely unrelated aside from the name.

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anigbrowl
Yes, my error. But the reason I mentioned JavaScript is that Oracle happens to
own the trademark on it: <http://www.trademarkia.com/javascript-75026640.html>

As far as I know, Extendscript does not use any Sun IP (it was originally
written by a Michael Daumling), but there are numerous Sun patents
specifically related to JavaScript interpreters, accessing APIs via
JavaScript, and so forth, mostly from 2000-2003. JavaScript as a language came
from Netscape, but it's hard to say exactly where their IP ends and Sun/Oracle
IP begins.

So there is a little more to my remark than just the verbal similarity.

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sgt
In a way I'm glad they dropped OpenSolaris. If they didn't, then OpenSolaris
would still be a project with Oracle's deep claw in it. That claw carries
infectious diseases. I look forward to the new effort; Illumos.org

I won't lie, I am in fact very much excited about it!

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alecco
[Tinfoil hat on]

    
    
      * Oracle is suing enemies of best buddy Apple (Google/Android/Java)
      * Adobe is another sworn enemy of Apple
      * Adobe has products in Java EE (ColdFusion)
    

[/]

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sigzero
I did not realize, nor have I ever heard, that Oracle is best buddy with
Apple? Why would that be so? I am not being sarcastic, just trying to broaden
my knowledge on the subject.

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protomyth
Larry Ellison is friends with Steve Jobs and even threatened to buy Apple for
Steve Jobs. Check news from the 1996-1997 era about Apple's buying of NeXT. I
really don't think that is in play here.

Although, I really believe Adobe can shut it until they point to an open
source Flash client that can be used with Hulu.

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j_baker
If I recall correctly, the iMac started out as ellison's idea.

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protomyth
Not the actual released iMac, but the rumor was that its form was from a
project at Apple started as a network computer (Ellison's thing at the time).

[http://www.macobserver.com/columns/1temporalloop/2007/05/15....](http://www.macobserver.com/columns/1temporalloop/2007/05/15.1.shtml)

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j_baker
Notice I said "started out". :-)

Plus, what do you think the i stood for? And do you know of any other
companies that put a superfluous i for internet in product names (or at least
did at the time)?

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protomyth
Sorry, I was just adding the link /info and didn't word it particularly well.
(I did upvote you original from the 0 - don't know why someone would downvote
it).

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jcsalterego
> No company is perfect. But these recent moves seem to indicate that the axis
> of evil has shifted south about 850 miles or so.

I looked on a map and 850 miles north of Redwood Shores leads me to believe he
is a) admitting Adobe (Seattle) was the previous axis of evil or b) bestowing
the title upon Canada.

Well, that's ten minutes of my life I'll never get back.

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brownleej
It's also possible they were referring to Microsoft, which also is about 850
miles north of Redwood Shores.

Edit: After looking at the quote in context, this is supported by a comment
three paragraphs earlier, where the author says, "Oracle has managed to move
into the role formerly played by Microsoft."

~~~
jcsalterego
Good call :)

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MC27
Ever since the purchase of Sun, this was always assumed to happen - they are
too cutthroat to leave those projects alone.

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patrickgzill
Someone at Adobe is attacking Oracle? Pretty hilarious ...

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known
I think ratifying all _software_ as service will fix patent terrorism.

