
Ask HN: Motivation and employement - throwaway_aiG
Hi, HN,<p>I am working at big tech corporation in Russia as a experienced software developer. We got a lot of perks, I enjoy cushy salary (approximatly 7-9k$ after tax monthly - this is approx 8-10x Moscow median income), and I saved reasonable amount of money (I think I can live up to 5-6 years not working without frugality with the same standard of living).<p>I do not enjoy consumption - I own old car, live in standard Soviet old flat (with mortgage paid off), but have a family of three (including myself) to support.<p>The thing is I completely loose motivation to be an employee - there is just no economical sense in it, I just feel that my free time costs potentially more, than the wage I make.<p>I am thinking about starting couple of my own things, but this is requires my time (to communicate with customers, to make sales, to build and evolve product), and it is risky (I can fail =) ).<p>So the question is: I think that many of fellow HN&#x27;s been in a such situation. What mady you (or not) to actully jump the ship?
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milesvp
My comment to people in similar situations, is to always remember that if you
have that much savings, you are closer to retirement than you realize. If you
can live off of a 4% drawdown, then you have very little risk long term of
ever touching your principle in a very conservative index fund investment
(stock markets historically in the US average 4% above inflation, and I
suspect that's true globally). I'm not sure what the russian equivalent to
Vanguard is, but I'd he surprised if you didn't have access to similar low
cost investment.

Sometimes all it takes is another couple years of slogging away at a job you
hate to get you to a critical mass where investment income matches your yearly
expenses. At that point all risk of quiting is basically gone, and you can
pursue whatever you want.

Also keep in mind that seven years is a pretty common number in business for a
good product to become successful. You can have 100% growth year over year for
5 years and still only have 32 customers. So it may make sense to hold off
until you have slightly more runway than 5-6 years savings.

But doing the math, and putting dates on calendars can do wonders for how you
feel about going into work.

Also, you sound like you're in a really good spot no matter what you decide.
Good luck!

~~~
rubicon33
This post confuses me.

It reads as if one could work a SWE job for 10 years, and retire on an index
fund. Yet, that cannot possibly be true?

Cost of living is relative, but I can't imagine mine is very high. No kids.
Own my car. $700/mo rent.

Yet, 10 years is not even close to enough time to bank enough money to retire.
What am I doing wrong?

~~~
godot
There are probably many factors you have to adjust along the way to achieve it
-- possible, but not without effort.

If you live in a place with $700/mo rent, I imagine you probably also live in
an area that doesn't pay the kind of salaries San Francisco tech pays.

So you might want to work in SF. But let's say you work in SF and get bay area
SWE salaries; if you were to want to "retire" in SF and continue to live with
$3-4k rent, that might be a hard point to reach after 10 years.

If you work in SF/Bay and get bay area SWE salaries (or better yet, FAANG
salaries) for 10 years, live modestly for most of it and not overspend, you
can then probably afford to retire with $700/mo rent (or even buy a house with
cash in an area that costs $200k~ a house) after 10 years by moving away from
the bay to other states.

The difference in salary and cost of living between different areas is often
larger than you can imagine; and it's up to you to figure out how to adjust
the knobs to make it work best to your advantage.

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annywhey
Here is a question. Do you have a good sense of how you would use your time
after you quit? Obviously you would have more time for your family and
hobbies, but beyond that, a lot of the challenge of working for yourself is in
making sure you are still pursuing a plausible career path and not taking a
wrong turn that will stress you out and has no reward.

I recently approached this question by writing down what I know about myself
and my general interests and strengths and weaknesses. I limited myself to
finding the nine most important of these(an arbitrary number but small enough
that I could keep all of them in my head) and reworked it over a few days
until they described me well and were no longer contradicting each other.

I figured out that I wanted to position myself towards something more like
teaching than, e.g. "deep" R&D, sales, customer support. So now I am working
on making video essays for a Youtube channel - something I hadn't considered
until I really worked through what I did and did not want - and am having a
great time with it. And if the channel and associated products don't work
out(like a lot of YT channels, the actual channel and video content can be
leveraged into a marketing funnel), it's still a pretty solid career move in
terms of getting my name out there.

~~~
codesternews
Can you post your youtube channel.

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staunch
Living very frugally, and driving an old car, wouldn't bother me but living in
a Soviet-style flat would seriously depress me. Maybe it's having an effect on
your own psychology? Human beings are by nature outdoor animals and living in
a huge block apartment is about as far from the natural outdoors as you can
get.

You could try renting a proper home on Airbnb for a month and see how you feel
after a few weeks of having a nicer environment.

This is the main reason most Americans want to own a home with a backyard. It
allows you to relax and BBQ in the "outdoors" any time you want. Sitting
around a fire pit is soothing in a primal way. I think most people find that
it improves their psychology immensely.

~~~
badpun
> relax and BBQ in the "outdoors" any time you want

In Poland (which has similar climate to Moscow), it's not "any time you want",
but more like May-September. For me, it's one of main reasons for not owning a
house - it's a major hassle throught the year, but you reap the benefits for
only around 5 months in this climate.

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mlboss
I would suggest that you switch jobs or move to more interesting project at
your current job. Starting a business sounds very attractive but it is totally
different from a programming job. I personally enjoy programming and would
hate to deal with customers/marketing/sales/VCs/employees. Starting a business
is just too many variables and never ending cycle of worry.

There are lot of new exciting technologies(AI/VR/Crypto) which are high in
demand and fun to work in.

~~~
throwaway_aiG
Thanks for your reply! This is a good advice, but I already tried it. For me
it does not solved the problem, only gave me a little more motivation to dig
into new tech. I'm not afraid of dealing with 'business' side of business,
cause during my career I was engineering manager for couple of years and
solution architect (tech sales guy) earlier.

I also enjoy programming, but for me it is just a tool.

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maxk42
I'm going to say something others would generally shy away from:

If you have that much in savings, then instead of building a project, hire
someone to build it for you. It will give you valuable management and project
management skills, and you can do it easily while working a day-to-day job.

------
segmondy
Build it part time, if it grows then you can leave. Most people that leave
without a plan exhaust their savings and end up in a worst position.

~~~
bsvalley
I second that. Married with kids? Don't jump off the train right away. Start
your own project for fun on the side. It as to be fairly contained and not to
hard to put in place because you want to minimize the time spent at your
current 9-5 job. Make it grow, look at the potential, get early feedback or
eventually generate a tiny income out of it (optional). Look at your savings,
make a plan with a 1 year run, or 2 years if you can. Quit in good terms, tell
people you're going to pursue your dream and would love to come back in the
future.

Quitting a job to pursue your dream is great, but that dream needs a clear
definition.

~~~
TrinaryWorksToo
How do you make a project that makes money without your employer finding out
and firing you?

~~~
throwaway_aiG
In Russia it is totally legal, however employer wouldn't be happy, but who
cares.

~~~
TrinaryWorksToo
I was thinking for your employer. If you piss them off then it's the same
situation as if you have quit.

------
ceolin
It's always hard to give advice to someone - and even harder giving advice to
someone you don't even know. That said, I think if you came here is because,
deep down, you already know the answer and you're just looking for
"validation" to do it. ;)

If you're feeling you'd be happier doing something else (and have the
financial means to support yourself), just do it. Of course, it's harder when
you also have a family to support but just have an honest talk to them and
tell them how you're feeling. They'll probably support your decision.

It's a cliché but it's so true: life's too short to waste time doing something
when our mind tells us we should be doing something else. That doesn't have to
be something definitive either. Just try out something for a year or two and,
if things don't work out, you can always find a new job (or maybe even go back
to yours). ;)

I think many people here would like as fortunate as you are to have enough
savings to quit their jobs and do something they're truly passionate about.
You've worked hard to reach this point. Enjoy it! :)

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malux85
It takes about 1-2 years to get decent profit flowing in a startup, so if you
can live 5-6 years, then quit and try for 2.

You will grow so much during this time that if you had to go back into
employment, you could command a much higher salary.

But this only applies if you are a self-starter. Once I stopped working a
full-time job (i.e. employment) and started my startup, I actually do a lot
more hours. I dont notice it, but I do. It's not for everybody.

~~~
throwaway_aiG
Do you quit after you found product-market fit? Or earlier?

~~~
malux85
Before - I had 1 year of runway, and I was sure I could get revenue positive
in a year. I was wrong. After a year I had to go back into consulting for 6
months, that 6 months consulting gave me another year runway, and then that
was enough to get everything off the ground.

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amorphous
Have been in the same position, my advice is to not quit (I did and I thought
I could have had it easier)! You are in a great position now to make the next
step.

Is taking a sabbatical an option?

Do you have energy left after work to try something on the side?

Find other companies. In the another thread I recommended the book "Why
Employees Are Always A Bad Idea". There are different companies out there
(building one myself).

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mabynogy
Can you make your current employer a customer? Can you make a product with
what you do for them? Do you know someone you could work with? It's better to
work with someone.

Taking that risk seems to be not a big deal in your case because you own your
home. I think it's very important to have good support (at least moral) from
the family (wife or parents).

------
blitz_skull
Read "When to Jump" it's been a quite fascinating read that has encouraged me
to be courageous when faced with the task of jumping.
([https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072V1BWFK/ref=dp-kindle-
redirect](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072V1BWFK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect))

------
xstartup
Starting a business is not easy in Russia. Problem with starting a big
business is corrupt government getting interested in your business and
oligarch sweeping off your biz. Move to SF and start your business there.

~~~
throwaway_aiG
LOL, it is really easy, we have 6% tax here if you relatively small (below
$1.5M USD yearly revenue).

So, it's not an issue.

~~~
xstartup
Tax rate means nothing if it's difficult to expand your business.

"This year, Russia is ranked 40th in the World Bank Group Global Doing
Business report, which assesses the ease of doing business across 190 measured
economies."

Hiring developers in St Petersburg is no longer easy as developers have come
to expect salary like you are getting.

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casielane
You don't have to jump the ship right away. You can find time and transition.

