

The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month - rickyconnolly
http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2013/10/16/yasmine-seale/q-v-k/

======
beloch
To put things in perspective, you really need to take a look at the past to
appreciate modern Turkey. The Ottoman empire was ruled by Sultan's who wielded
absolute power, much like the leaders of other Arab nations today. Prior to
the Sultan's were the emperor's of the Holy Roman empire, who wielded power so
absolute that even medieval Europeans would have found it unsettling. Much of
the symbolism used by European royalty was copied wholesale from
Constantinople in attempts to achieve a similar measure of control.

Ottoman society, like many Arab societies today, was heavily inclined towards
absolute rule by "strong men". Where most of Europe gradually weaned itself
off of absolute rulers by gradually limiting or subverting the power of
monarchs over several generations, Turkey literally went from absolute rule to
democracy in a single generation. Kemal was an officer during the first world
war, which Turkey was on the wrong side of and wound up being partitioned by
the allied forces. He played a huge role in reunifying Turkey through armed
conflict that expelled the occupying forces. The last Ottoman Sultan was
opposed to Kemal and called for his death, but the unification forces instead
abolished the sultanate and declared a democracy. Kemal was held in such
esteem that he was easily elected to lead this new democracy.

Here's where things get interesting... Kemal's revolution and declaration of
democracy are hardly novel. Many nations have undergone similar
transformations, and many of the newly elected leaders soon turn into despots.
Cultures that favor "strong men" tend to encourage this. Kemal introduced
reforms intended to westernize Turkey. Western dress, even hats, were heavily
encouraged while his "Hat Law" banned turban's and fezzes (No, the doctor
would not have been a fan of Ataturk!).

The new alphabet, seen in light of this wave of westernization, is
particularly interesting. Ankara, Istanbul, and many other Turkish cities are
full of monuments covered in arabic scrip proclaiming the awesomeness of
various Sultan's. It's not unlike how Washington D.C.'s Lincoln memorial,
etc., glorify the U.S. system of government, only the Ottoman empire had been
accumulating such monuments for a _lot_ longer. The Sultan's of the Ottoman
empire lived in the shadow of Constantinople's emperors, so they tended to
play themselves up rather a lot.

If you tour Turkey today, your university educated tour guides (practically
every guide in Turkey has a degree or two) are extremely unlikely to be able
to read a word of arabic script. The new alphabet effectively severed Turkish
citizens from centuries of extremely high quality propaganda that the Ottoman
empire had accumulated to support the sultanate's rule.

Kemal's legacy is not without it's dark spots, but the "strong man" culture of
the Ottoman empire has largely abated. Obviously, it takes time, as people
change slowly. Turkish citizens today are more likely to revere Kemal himself
as they would a Sultan rather than their prime minister or president. The
military has historically seen itself as the guardian of Ataturk's legacy,
which has led to some truly unusual coups that, bizarrely enough, have
probably kept Turkey on the course of democracy, although recently the power
of the military has been gutted.

The Turkish alphabet might be interpreted by some as a form of oppression, but
it's adoption was more about breaking with the past and embracing democracy
and the west. Compared to it's Arab neighbors, Turkey is astoundingly western
and unusually democratic.

~~~
nkoren
Apologies for making a pedantic meta-comment, but may I recommend that you
read this:
[http://www.apostrophe.org.uk/page2.html](http://www.apostrophe.org.uk/page2.html)

Your comment was otherwise well-written, but you misused apostrophes nine
times (thrice in the first three sentences), which made it _quite_ painful to
read. I'm sure that your writing will be taken much more seriously if you fix
this one glitch.

~~~
panarky
What a helpful, constructive, and non-judgmental comment. Upvoted both nkoren
and beloch as examples of why I keep coming back to HN.

------
diorray
Actually it was never illegal in Turkey. Q, W, X just not allowed to be used
in people/company names because they're not in Turkish alphabet. I think this
news mislead by AKP as usual.

~~~
vidarh
Every reference I've found claims that the relevant law made the use of the
Turkish alphabet compulsory in _all public communication_.

E.g. "Minorities and Nationalism in Turkish Law", by Derya Bayir repeats the
claim that the Law on the Turkish Alphabet of 1928 "obliged the use of the
Turkish alphabet", as part of a section describing legal decisions used to
outlaw use of Kurdish and other languages in official communication, and that
has also been used to oust elected officials that have allowed use of other
languages than Turkish.

In _private_ there has been more flexibility, though until recently,
everything I've found (including the book above) indicates there were strict
restrictions on use by e.g. private businesses when communicating privately
with customers too.

If you have references that contradicts the above mentioned book on these
points, I'd love to see them.

EDIT: While the Google Translate translation of the text of the law itself
here is atrocious at best, it does seem to also support the linked article:
[http://www.idealhukuk.com/hukuk/hukuk.asp?mct=mevzuatdetay&x...](http://www.idealhukuk.com/hukuk/hukuk.asp?mct=mevzuatdetay&x=kanun&y=Kanunlar&id=910)

~~~
diorray
Let me give you another example of manipulation:
[https://twitter.com/AKGenclikGM/status/384629580226506753](https://twitter.com/AKGenclikGM/status/384629580226506753)
\- In this picture, they're wrote "Now, Q - W - X are free" in Turkish

Let's check English version of that:
[https://twitter.com/AKGenclikGM_en/status/384649333884588032](https://twitter.com/AKGenclikGM_en/status/384649333884588032)
"Kurdish letters are now free"

..there is no ban for usage of Kurdish letters in public. As i said, because
of Q, W, X letters are not in Turkish alphabet, they're just don't allowed to
use these letters in names. They just added q - w - x to Turkish alphabet (btw
think about it; USA changing their alphabet, adding another letters, i think
general reaction would like "what") That's why they just write "q - w - x are
free" in Turkish version. But in English version, sadly, they're saying kurds
can't use their alphabets and they're dramatizing the status of kurds.

~~~
ozgung
Such manipulations are typical for the pro-Islamic AK Party. This was not a
democratic reform, it's just propaganda. There are no x, w, q letters in
Turkish language hence no place for them in Turkish alphabet. A true
democratic reform would be to legalize the Kurdish alphabet and the Kurdish
language as a separate language. (And I'm saying that as a so-called
'Kemalist')

~~~
diorray
+1. And they're step by step trying to create jihadist Turkey just like Iran:
[http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5756/77201414.jpg](http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5756/77201414.jpg)
(before - after)

~~~
afsina
If I had a penny for every time I heard that claim... 30 years ago they used
to use the same scare sentence over and over. Please get over with it.

~~~
diorray
So you're implying that you're 50~ years old. Sure, sure :))

~~~
afsina
40\. close enough.

------
duman
The letter Q was never illegal in Turkey. It was just not allowed to be used
in names of people/companies etc. due to the fact that it is not in Turkish
alphabet.

It is like letters ç,ğ,ü being illegal in US.

~~~
unwind
Have some Häagen-Dazs if you really think using "the wrong letters" is illegal
in the US.

~~~
egeozcan
Häagen-Dazs has always been allowed to operate in Turkey as well as Quiznos
Sub and others.

If you wanted a local company, yes, you were only allowed to use Turkish
letters in the official name. They didn't actually care what you actually
wrote on your signs though.

Official names being Turkish is important because otherwise officials would
have needed to be capable of working with all characters in the universe.

~~~
ozgung
There is even a W Hotel at the hearth of Istanbul:
[http://www.wistanbul.com.tr/en/gallery/exterior](http://www.wistanbul.com.tr/en/gallery/exterior)

------
thret
The first comment has a link to this article:
[http://gizmodo.com/382026/a-cellphones-missing-dot-kills-
two...](http://gizmodo.com/382026/a-cellphones-missing-dot-kills-two-people-
puts-three-more-in-jail)

Wow.

~~~
jpatokal
Yup, accents can be pretty critical. In Finnish, _näin_ means "I saw", but
_nain_ means "I had sex with". This put a bit of a twist on a friend trying to
tell me "I saw the rapist in the park!" when the umlaut dropped off...

~~~
pavlov
To make things even more complicated, _nain_ means either "I had sex with N"
or "I married N" depending on the case of the object noun.

I've always thought it awfully pragmatic that the Finnish word for "getting
married" is literally "to go and fuck together".

~~~
jpatokal
You can differentiate the cases by the conjugation of the object though. "nain
Anna _n_ " (genetive, "all of") is marrying Anna, while "nain Anna _a_ "
(partitive, "part of") is fucking Anna. But yes, learners of Finnish should
definitely be careful with that verb ;)

------
tty
The Polish minority in Lithuania doesn't have the right to use the Polish
orthography and/or letters of the Polish alphabet when writing their names.

[http://www.nouvelle-europe.eu/en/polish-national-minority-
li...](http://www.nouvelle-europe.eu/en/polish-national-minority-lithuania-
three-reports-later)

~~~
levosmetalo
... because allowing every minority or every individual to use their own
alphabet would soon require the full unicode support everywhere, which is not
a big deal, as well as that everyone else knows how to read/write it, which is
a big deal.

Btw, I am also not allowed to use Cyrillic alphabet or latin "ć" here in
Germany when filling out official forms, but I don't consider that my rights
are somehow jeopardized because of that.

~~~
tty
The Polish minority in Lithuania is autochtone, as far as I know (unlike
Cyrillic in Germany). Furthermore, it's not merely a matter of not using the
Polish letters - as the link that I provided says, their names get
Lithuanized. ( _Mickiewicz_ > _Mickevičius_ )

Since I assume you're Serbian (your handle + the mention of _ć_ and Cyrillic),
here's an example.

Imagine that the Hungarians in North of Serbia weren't allowed to write their
name as _Szabo Lajos_ (or _Lajos Szabo_ ) and instead they were forced to use
_Lajoš Sabić_.

~~~
levosmetalo
> Imagine that the Hungarians in North of Serbia weren't allowed to write
> their name as Szabo Lajos (or Lajos Szabo) and instead they were forced to
> use Lajoš Sabić.

You are absolutely right here. I was speaking only about an alphabet part of
the problems, and why it is not practical. Forcing someone else to "translate"
the name is completely other problem, which is much more severe. There is
certainly a difference between writing István as Ištvan simply because it's
how it's pronounced and the lack of á in alphabet and forcing him to call
himself Ivan (or Stefan).

There are many offenders to this, like Greece, or Bulgaria, or China, which
IIRC at one moment required its own citizens to have "westernized" names in
their travel documents.

------
pt3530
This is common in many cultures. Until recently the letters K,W and Y were
"ilegal" in Portugal. Meaning that could not be used in names or official
documents.

------
makmanalp
This is a bit like one of those archaic laws like how in Staten Island, can
only water your lawn if you hold the hose in your hand. No one actually gives
a shit, and no one even knows that this was illegal in the first place.

Both Turkish Q and F keyboard layouts have Q, W and X on them. Everyone uses
them all the time, always. You can't use them in your official company name,
but that's usually not your publicly visible brand name anyway. E.g.
"Biletix", a ticketing company (it was acquired by ticketmaster, but it was
called that before the acquisition)
[http://www.biletix.com/anasayfa/TURKIYE/tr](http://www.biletix.com/anasayfa/TURKIYE/tr)

I don't think the article itself is shooting for this, but the current AKP
government is trying to spin this inane and pointless change as
"democratization". If they want to democratize things and appeal to oppressed
minorities, they can start by taking thought criminals out of prison.

~~~
asdfs
>This is a bit like one of those archaic laws like how in Staten Island, can
only water your lawn if you hold the hose in your hand. No one actually gives
a shit, and no one even knows that this was illegal in the first place.

Probably water conservation, as it prevents sprinkler use. My city had a
similar bylaw as recently as 10 years ago, until a new reservoir was built.

------
jdmitch
I think this is part of a general de-arabization trend which followed the
crumbling of the Ottoman empire, as many words would naturally have been
transliterated with a q (which would be ق in the Arabic script, which was used
in Ottoman Turkish). I have heard that for many years it was illegal to name a
son Muhammad in Turkey - you could only use the "Turkified" version Mehmed or
Mehmet.

~~~
vidarh
That's probably part of it, but note that the articles point about e.g.
Kurdish meshes well with decades of extensive cultural oppression of the Kurds
and other minority groups in terms of outlawing teaching of their language,
and even for a while outlawing the very name Kurd as well.

I used to know a Turkish journalist who was granted political asylum in Norway
(one of many Turks who had to flee over issues like this) after repeated
death-threats from the then-Turkish regime (early 90's) because he wrote
articles about the situation of the Kurds.

------
Aardwolf
I wonder how Star Trek episodes involving Q were broadcast there :)

