
Ask HN: Insultingly Bad Bonus, Bay Area, Cause for Concern? - oaklandsystems
I work for a fairly large computer-centric company in the east bay. I relocated across the country from NYC for this job around six months ago. Overall I would consider it a great move -- I&#x27;m working on an awesome project, my coworkers are amazing and have told me that my work is great, and my supervisor has told me I was a great hire. I&#x27;m fairly certain that the work I&#x27;ve done in the past six months will lead to a patent for the company and to a major feature in our main software package. No cause for concern, right?<p>Well, today, to much pomp and circumstance, the C level company execs announced year end bonuses at a company wide meeting. The execs emphasized that this year we saw record profits, and reiterated how they felt privileged to take care of <i>all</i> employees, from the staff at the company cafe to the long term, senior engineers. This success, as was emphasized, brought with it financial rewards that they were pleased to share with the feet on the ground.<p>Caught up in the hoopla, I queued up for my bonus cheque, only to find it in the amount of... around ~100 dollars, about enough money for a one way cab ride to SFO.<p>Is this cause for concern? I realize that bonuses are, by definition, a bonus, and that I should be happy for anything. But if, after this whole production, the bonus comes to around ~3% of one&#x27;s monthly rent in the bay area, that seems fucked up, especially given the state of the tech industry in the area.<p>Is this paltry bonus a cause for concern? Should I circulate my resume among friends and former colleagues in the bay? I&#x27;ve worked in similar job titles in the past, so I feel like I can, for the most part, fairly gauge my contributions to the company&#x27;s bottom line, but this seems like an intentionally bad bonus (hell, just tell everyone that new hires don&#x27;t get a bonus at all instead of giving them a rounding error).
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URSpider94
Talk to your manager. Ask him or her if there's a message here. If there is,
then there's no reason for your boss to beat around the bush.

A likely explanation is that they had some sort of cut-off where employees who
joined after a certain date get a pro-forma minimum amount.

~~~
lyime
I would echo this. Talk to your manager and find out how bonuses are
calculated and distributed. I would also voice your concern.

~~~
throwaway4891a
Yup. Silence gives consent. Don't be a quiet slave.

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qwrusz
Whoa. I can't believe how many people are saying just talk to your manager. I
am a manager and I really disagree with that advice. Talking to your manager
may need to happen at some point but it should certainly not be the first
step.

Unfortunately, in the real world, even a completely rational fair question
asked to a manager can have negative results for the employee. The risks
compound when a new employee might not fully realize they asked a question
that _the manager thought was stupid or inappropriate_ and now thinks
differently/worse of them.

...To answer your question. _Yes of course it 's cause for concern_

A $100 bonus like is most likely one of 3 things:

1\. It's a fuck you level intentionally bad bad bonus as you suggested.

2\. It was a mistake by HR and there should be two more zeros (at least) that
are missing.

3\. There's no mistake by HR or bad intention by your boss, the $100 check is
correct, but it fails the "people I work for need to have enough common sense
that I don't despise them and think they are clueless" test.

As for how I might play it. Is there a coworker not your manager who you are
friendly enough with and trust to just bring this up casually? You don't have
to talk numbers or express disappointment just get a better understanding of
what other bonuses looked like.

Even if you and your manager are bros and you think you can chat off the
record, I still wouldn't do it. Find someone else. If you can't find a
coworker to chat with casually then speak to HR, maybe bring it up in a nice
way: "Hi HR, just wanted to ask about how our bonuses should be reported for
tax purposes, I heard it might be a different tax rate, by the way just a
random q too, are $100 dogshit bonuses like this normal"?

Either way start networking. Never hurts to start building that network even
if this works out ok and you stay a while.

Good luck, mate.

P.S. If they really did make you stand and queue up, I would quit for that
alone.

~~~
circlefavshape
I'm also a manager, and I think asking your manager is the obvious thing to do
... BUT it is a good idea to ask a team-mate first. The C-levels' speech might
just be hot air, and everyone could have got similar

FWIW I brought up a shitty bonus directly with our CTO after 2 months with the
company I still work for 6 years later. He didn't change it, but judging by
how he's behaved towards me since I think he admired my balls

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Orangeair
Well, just for comparison's sake, employees at Google are able to give _each
other_ bonuses that are worth more than that. They're subject to manager
approval of course, but they can be given for things as simple as "this person
was my go-to help for understanding this new platform I haven't worked on
before". So take that for what it's worth.

~~~
r00fus
That's pretty awesome - like a real tip-jar. I wonder how much it gets
abused...

~~~
throwaway95436
We use something similar at our company, we use the
[http://www.achievers.com/](http://www.achievers.com/) platform for this.

We get new credit every month, which we can give to anyone in that month, but
if you do not give them away they expire.

We do not talk about big bonuses (as I am aware the credits value is different
by location, at mine it is much less then 100 USD for a month), but yeah, it
is abused.. Some colleagues just exchange it on the end of the month.

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aaronbrethorst
Once upon a time, I singlehandedly retooled my company's flagship app for an
entirely new software platform in less than three weeks, in order to ensure we
were available on the new platform when _it_ launched. I worked days, nights,
weekends, and even dreamed about the damned thing as I was porting it over.

Six months later: review time. My boss tells me that he was monumentally
impressed with the dedication, perseverance, and capability I demonstrated
throughout the year, especially on the aforementioned product. And, as a
result, he was very proud to give me...a 3% raise. I was deeply offended, and
that was the beginning of the end for me there. I quit a few months later. I
hear that layoffs have been rampant since I departed, which makes me feel a
little better.

Anyway, long story short: fuck those guys. Polish your resume and tell them
you're doing it.

~~~
devoply
Yup. Money can make anyone into a sociopath.

~~~
throwaway4891a
Nothing spells "hubris" like a little success with a swollen ego.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
xoxo

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brudgers
My random advice from the internet is collect more information from a neutral
source: Payroll. Contact _Payroll not HR_ and simply ask "How was my bonus
calculated?"

1\. Negative information: Don't react toward Payroll.

2\. No information: Ask who to ask.

3\. Mistake by Payroll, thank them for correcting it.

Then consider your options.

Good luck.

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tyingq
That's exactly the bonus amount that prompted me to quit a health tech startup
that had just been sold to a larger company. I wasn't the only one that left
either.

Funny, because they really needed us to stay on because the acquisition meant
a fair amount of tech work to integrate the product with the parent company's
tech. My manager actually started crying when I quit...I think I was the 3rd
or 4th to quit that day.

To me, $100 is worse than 0, especially when (as in your case, and mine), it's
clear that the company had a great year. In my case, we also knew that the
management had helped themselves to very substantial payouts.

I wasn't expecting to get rich, but I was at least expecting something that
was, say 5-20%+ of my yearly salary. We had worked our asses off for 2 years,
I was employee #13.

Edit: We all, of course, talked among ourselves. Everyone other than the
equity holding employees got $100. So, it wasn't an intentional "fuck you"
bonus...just an incredibly stupid miscalculation that we wouldn't interpret it
that way.

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cpplinuxdude
It has occurred to me that bonuses don't suit me well. As a software engineer
my ability to work rests upon many different layers of knowledge (my trade),
assumptions (there will be electricity at my client's office when I arrive),
beliefs (I will get paid).

I work hard to make sure each of these elements are in place, so that I can
free my mind of them, and focus on my work.

Well a bonus turns one of my most important factors for employment into a
variable, based on my performance. This is a cognitive load that I refuse to
bear while carrying out my trade.

If you read up on research regarding bonuses they also seem to lead to worse
performance when it comes to cognitive tasks, and I'm unwilling to work with a
company that doesn't use data, facts and reason as some of their driving
factors.

~~~
znebby
_If you read up on research regarding bonuses they also seem to lead to worse
performance when it comes to cognitive tasks, and I 'm unwilling to work with
a company that doesn't use data, facts and reason as some of their driving
factors._

Doesn't that exclude you from all major tech companies? Also, I'd be
interested in reading this research if you have a link to it?

~~~
cpplinuxdude
time.com/3342841/bonus-bad-news/

Yes it does, but I pretty much regard work as I do dating. In this respect
being selective usually pays.

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CyberFonic
"Record profits" by how much? I get the impression that the management were
exaggerating. It would also be useful to know how much more senior staff got
and especially the top managers. If your company is public, jump onto the SEC
database and check the numbers for yourself.

You might have to also consider whether you were paid a generous bump up in
salary and relocation expenses. Your manager, might have had to take your
hiring costs into consideration when calculating your bonus.

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atarian
Six months is kinda too short to expect a huge bonus. $100 is pretty paltry,
but I'd talk to your manager about it.

If you feel like your manager is bull-shitting you, then yes you need to
leave. I regret not leaving my job earlier when I was in a similar position.

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gargravarr
Don't do anything rash, like others are suggesting. If your boss has told you
that he's pleased he hired you, that you're making good contributions and you
like the company, then there is no reason you shouldn't be compensated
accordingly.

Pull your boss aside for a serious conversation and discuss it; even though
you haven't been on the books long, $100 is indeed pathetic.

------
hijinks
There's too many good high paying jobs in the Bay area to waste your time and
effort at a place that doesn't see that.

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stevethyc
Talk to your boss. That amount so low that there's no question of
overreacting: you basically didn't get a bonus. Having worked before in larger
tech companies, I would entertain the idea that the amount is a fluke of
accounting rules--you said you only started six months ago: maybe there is
some kind of vesting rule. It's very likely it's nothing personal. If the
company is indeed doing as well as you say, they would either give you no
bonus or something real. If it's the former, they'd probably be talking to you
about leaving. It's unlikely that this is some kind of passive-aggressive
gesture because they secretly want you gone. Unlikely, but not impossible: bad
management definitely exists, so anything is possible. If this was an
intentional act then definitely leave at your earliest convenience. But I bet
it wasn't.

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ww520
$100 bonus is insulting for self driven creativity work. It shows management
has no clue on how to motivate people and reward people. That might demoralize
not just you but the rest of the company. It might be a cause of concern.

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dman
You should start looking immediately.

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jmknoll
Not a totally apples-to-apples comparison, but I used to work for a large law
firm on the East Coast. I started in July, and for my first year's bonus,
received a crisp $100. Seemed low, but it was the same for my entire cohort.
Probably just company policy. They liked our work, the company was doing well,
and bonuses were fine the next year.

~~~
brazzledazzle
My guess is that those with less than 12 months are normally given nothing and
everyone who normally receives nothing like new people, interns and cafe
workers only got $100. It probably seemed like a good idea at the time but
giving someone who would have received a fat bonus and has put in 6 months
$100 is kind of insulting. If true they should use the same calculation they
use for other developers, divide the total by 12 and then multiply it by the
number of months the employee has been there.

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salarycommenter
If you messed up this bad your employer would fire you. Fire your employer.
Don't make a stink. Get an offer and give notice. Discussions with management
aren't going to do anything but leave a bad taste in their mouth. Never ever
bad mouth previous employers and teams no matter how bad they are. It won't
help you and it could hurt you.

Now... I wouldn't actually quit immediately. Do your job well and get to the
two year mark. You want everyone sad to see you go. Employment is a means to
end and keeping your resume well groomed is critical. Your current job is the
last step to your next job.

I doubled my compensation (110k to 240k, remote work from NE Coast city) in 4
years and every manager I left wished I hadn't, but they simply couldn't
swallow the trajectory I could get by leaving. Each job has been better than
the last and each job has been a step towards my next one. I believe I have
30% more to go and then I will be done. All this to goad companies into paying
the amount they are actually willing to pay, but simply refuse to due policies
that prioritize cost management of visible costs over retention. Go figure.

I know people at past jobs who are getting absolutely demolished on comp for
doing the same work I do. One guy making < 100k. You don't necessarily need to
leave if you are willing to take on more leadership roles and title changes
and can wrangle that, but I don't want that. I want to simply get paid the max
for what I do at any given time. My time is valuable to me and it is not a
renewable resource.

Employee retention is their job not yours. You are a fungible cog to them and
you should behave likewise. Employers are only as good to their employees as
they have to be and you should act in kind. You are literally punished for
staying with your current employer and rewarded for changing employers. You
didn't create this incentive structure you just have to work with it. You
shouldn't feel guilty. They are adults running a business and could be
competitive if they chose to.

Employers behave this way because as a group employees tolerate ridiculous
behavior ranging from constant nickel and diming on compensation to outright
nonsense like this. They set progress for existing hires based on churn and
churn is usually not high enough to drive change. They also base progress on
trailing indicators (churn) at which point the best have already left. You
can't fix it.

I have come up with a very loose calculation for how long I stay at a company.
It starts at 4 years. HR is bad? -3 months. Weak comp improvement (<5%) at the
end of year 1 or year 2? -6 months per year. Lied about something in the offer
letter? -6 months. Amazing team members and work? +1 year. External offers >
30% more for same or better quality work? -1 year. Bad manager? -1 year. If it
gets down below two years I will stay for two years unless I can't possibly
stand it which has never happened.

Obviously I won't change jobs if I don't stand to gain something substantial
to justify the transaction costs and risks.

I am not sure the company that justifies staying longer than two years when
you have room to move up exists. My current employer is in what people might
think of as a different class so I don't know how it's going to turn out. I
didn't create the incentive structure I just work with it and I refuse to
apologize. This is business and they are not entitled to more than two years.

Employers don't cry because you confuse brinksmanship for negotiation. Learn
what a BATNA is and get with the program. You don't choose how much your
employees are paid. You only choose whether you get to be the one paying them.

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gedy
Not sure how big your company is, but my guess is you've only been there for
part ofThe year, so you are considered very junior. Many companies don't give
bonuses so I personally wouldn't sweat it.

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pravula
Some companies will not give out full bonuses for new hires if there was a
signing bonus. It should be specified in your employment contract.

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Lordarminius
Plenty of advice here. I would like to know how this turns out though.

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raverbashing
Wow, that's ridiculous

Companies in developing countries give better bonuses

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shoo
when negotiating your contract, a discretionary bonus not written into your
contract has expected value 0.

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jondubois
It shows that your boss basically thinks you're an idiot. Management types
often think that engineers have some sort of autism and so are easy to fool;
the reality is that most of us know exactly when we're being fooled - We just
go along with it usually because we are too nice (and care too much about
other people).

I would quit on the spot if I were you. This guy is making tons of money on
top of your superior brain and then he has the audacity to treat you like some
idiot.

You have to be aggressive. Find other key engineers who also feel mistreated
and threaten to quit together if you don't get what you deserve.

~~~
circlefavshape
OP - if you followed this joker's advice and took instant offense at something
that could have been a mistake or company policy, then as your manager I'd be
delighted if you quit. I don't people like this on my team

~~~
arielweisberg
I agree making waves that could follow you around is a bad idea. Let other
employees mind their own compensation issues.

I'm not against collective bargaining as a concept it just needs to be handled
correctly.

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myf01d
Welcome to corporation ladder. Game of thrones in real life.

