
Tattoo Ink Nanoparticles Persist in Lymph Nodes (2017) - DoreenMichele
https://www.the-scientist.com/the-nutshell/tattoo-ink-nanoparticles-persist-in-lymph-nodes-30933
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killjoywashere
As a pathologist who sees tattoo ink in lymph nodes routinely (along with
other pigments), it's slightly shocking to me that this got reported as a
finding.

There is, however, an interesting suggestion of correlation between certain
red pigments, particularly from tattoos made in Asia it seems, that stimulate
the immune system to mount a severe epidermolytic reaction. And it can be a
delayed reaction. We had one where the dermatologists brought in pictures. It
looked like the entire tattoo was being cut out with a cookie cutter, just
totally separated from the surrounding skin. Horrible.

~~~
albertgoeswoof
“We already knew that pigments from tattoos would travel to the lymph nodes
because of visual evidence: the lymph nodes become tinted with the colour of
the tattoo. It is the response of the body to clean the site,” study coauthor
Bernhard Hesse, a visiting scientist at the European Synchrotron Radiation
Facility (ESRF) in Grenoble, France, says in a press release. “What we didn’t
know is that they do it in a nano form, which implies that they may not have
the same behaviour as the particles at a micro level. And that is the problem:
we don’t know how nanoparticles react.”

~~~
killjoywashere
From the actual report: “The average particle size of TiO2 in both skin and
lymph nodes was 180 nm with a standard deviation of 23 nm and a standard error
of 7 nm.”

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vedtopkar
This is pretty much expected. The very mechanism of tattoos is that ink
particles deposited in the skin are taken up by phagocytes. One of the jobs of
phagocytes is to present ingested material to lymphocytes in lymph nodes.
Makes sense that we may see ink particles in lymph nodes.

~~~
beerlord
This is also the method used for tattoo removal. Normally the ink particles
(or most of them) are too large to be removed by the body. Tattoo removal
lasers simply break down the ink pigments into smaller particles, which the
body can remove.

~~~
vedtopkar
Didn't know that, thanks!

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userbinator
Finding traces of tattoo ink in lymph nodes, means nothing other than the fact
that there are traces of tattoo ink in lymph nodes.

If there were actual lymph-related problems associated with tattoos, like
certain illnesses that are disproportionately represented amongst tatooed
individuals, you'd think that studies would discover it...

~~~
GW150914
That’s a bit glib, and ignores the possibility that now it’s known those
nanoparticles travel in lymph, they could be found elsewhere. In the case of
something like TiO2, I’d be pretty concerned if nanoparticles where found in
my lymph nodes or elsewhere. There is also evidence of chronic enlargement of
the nodes as a result, and persistent hypertrophy or inflammation are known
risk factors for cancer. Simply dismissing any risk until large longitudinal
studies show a correlation in key populations is probably unwise.

It’s been known for a while that tattoos are a possible vector for some
infectious diseases, typically when unsanitary methods are employed. The focus
of disease and tattoos has generally been around Hep C, and you might be
overestimating the degree of scholarly interest in looking beyond that.
Nanoparticles infiltration is a relatively new concept, and none that I’ve
ever seen leads me to the conclusion that the results are likely to be
positive, but it’s early days yet. TiO2 has been tentatively linked to tumors
in rats, but it’s only been tested through the inhalation route. Science takes
time, and a rational person might wait and see rather than say “fuck it, until
you prove it I’m tatting up!”

So sure, get a tattoo, but realize that you’re having an unregulated ink shot
into your dermis, and elements of that ink can infiltrate systemically. That
would worry me, but then, I wouldn’t get a tattoo.

~~~
Mtinie
Without being glib, as well, there are tens of things I do everyday that have
a high probability of depositing foreign nanoparticles in my lymph nodes:
driving a car, standing next to a smoker, eating food from a production farm,
being exposed to paint fumes, etc.

Tattoos may end up being a problem, and more power to those who have no
interest or who decide to abstain because of possible issues, but let’s keep
this in perspective.

~~~
donbright
so 10,000 years from now they can look at all these nano particles in our
bodies as artefacts of our civilization, like we look back at Otzi the
Iceman's stomach contents.... ??

~~~
toolz
10k years from now they'll probably pull up social media archives to know
everything they want to know :p

~~~
spoondan
And we will seem happier, fitter, more attractive, better traveled, more
socially connected, and more politically engaged than we ever were.

~~~
acct1771
"Seem"

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Theodores
Glad they only looked for Titanium Dioxide, as present in everything and
anything except for a lot of the more common tattoo inks. Titanium Dioxide is
effectively 'white paint' and mixed in with ink as well as to do highlights in
white.

A lot of tattoo ink is 'burnt animal bones' and mostly harmless. However, a
surprisingly large amount of people in the trade are vegan and therefore only
use the 'vegan friendly' ink. So that means nickel shoved into the skin
instead of dead animal ash.

Colours, particularly bright colours, do need heavy metals such as cadmium for
yellow, cobalt for blue and, depending on who is doing the fearmongering,
lead, arsenic, everything up to depleted uranium.

One might imagine that in this age where we have brightly coloured plastics
made from petroleum products and friendly to everything from kids to
dishwashers that it would be possible to get vegan friendly ink that was not
made from toxic heavy metals. But it is not like that at all, to get good
colours you do need lots of heavy metals.

Tattoos are far from permanent, yellows will fade to be barely visible within
five years even if looked after with sun cream and covered 99% of the time. I
would be very interested to see how these inks make it from the skin and on
towards the liver over time. I know some people say they are allergic to
Titanium Dioxide but that has to be one of the more inert of the inks, what
happens to the lead is more interesting.

There could be a flip side though. Some people don't get enough zinc. So what
if you could have a 'slow release mechanism' tattoo that gave you the zinc the
doctor said you needed?

~~~
dizzystar
We aren't made of polymers.

Chemicals that don't separate from the plastic doesn't mean the chemicals used
to make and color plastic are safe to stick directly into your body.

~~~
blattimwind
Re. plastics specifically, the synthesis of these almost universally uses
compounds of at least some toxicity. It's not easy to set up, control and
maintain a reactor such that you get a very clean product containing very
little of the original compounds. For durability, that doesn't really matter.
But when you don't want plastics to contaminate things, then you really need
high quality plastics.

That's why e.g. kids toys and most of the plastic things you touch or put your
food in/on are made from the cheapest plastics someone was able to make
(because we're cheap fucks), while industrial piping, fittings etc. (which are
quite common in many industries, because many substances are incompatible with
steel piping, and stainless steel piping is even more expensive, and still
incompatible with many substances) are still largely made in first-world
countries and cost approx 2-10 times more per kg than cheap plastics. The
former has all sorts of chemical dirt in it, while the latter only requires a
few purging passes at most to not contaminate your product.

------
guhcampos
“No one checks the chemical composition of the colours, but our study shows
that maybe they should.”

Not exactly true. Part of the process of choosing the right tattoo artist is
making sure they use a quality ink, since this may significantly affect the
final work. I agree most people don't really do it, and fewer care about the
actual contents of the ink, but good tattoo artists will properly talk to
customers about it, as to set the right expectations for colors that fade out
quickly such as white or yellow, or change tone over time like old black ink.

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joezydeco
Looks like TiO2 is going to get a lot more focus in the decades ahead:

"Possible link found between diabetes and common white pigment"

[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180620125907.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180620125907.htm)

~~~
hammock
Yes, titanium dioxide is in everything, and where you see it on a label it is
almost always nanoparticles. And nanoparticles inside your body are no bueno

~~~
blattimwind
Well, TiO2 is fully oxidized. It's a very stable substance that's inert in
most circumstances. Recent changes in work-safety regarding TiO2 pigment has
to do with dust (I think it shouldn't surprise anyone that any kind of dust is
no good for you), not that they think TiO2 is actually toxic.

Similarly I think negative effects caused by very small particulates probably
have less to do with the composition of the particle itself and more to do
with it being around.

~~~
hammock
If it wasn't clear, I wasn't claiming that titanium dioxide would chemically
combine with something in your body as chlorine gas or something would.

There are many ways things can be toxic, and many of them involve pretty
mundane processes like heavy metal bioaccumulation, or nanoparticles like
asbestos, or other dust, or yes, titanium dioxide, getting stuck in hard-to-
clean (from the body's point of view) nooks and crannies of your body.

And it doesn't take much to be toxic: a single exposure to asbestos. Or the
talcum powder fiasco.

Not all dust is created equal, and it's the size and shape of the dust that
matters. Titanium dioxide nanoparticles have been a known danger (to the
industry, occupational hazard etc) for a long time.

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pwaai
whew thank god i decided not to get a tattoo....was about to too.

------
danschumann
You should almost never make a decision that affects the rest of your life. If
you say "marriage", well, NOT getting married to that person might affect the
rest of your life more than marrying them ( regret is bigger than marriage ).
Therefore marriage would affect the rest of your life less than not marrying
them.

Are there any decisions that affect the rest of your life ( by consequence )
that are advisable? Even going into the military only affects 4 years, but
tattoos are longer ( assuming you don't remove ).

Kids too, they should only be had if regret would outweigh the kid, in terms
of life change.

How many people regret NOT getting a tattoo, vs the many that regret tattoos?
If you regret not having a tattoo, you can always get the tat later, but not
the other way around.

~~~
elliotec
Every single decision anyone ever makes affects the rest of their lives no
matter what.

You can make the same argument you’re making about marriage about any other
decision. NOT getting that tattoo affects your life exactly the same amount as
getting it and vice versa, same with everything.

~~~
danschumann
No, not the same amount, from a reasonable baseline, from expectations. If you
expect a pretty good life, then getting a face tattoo will deviate from those
expectations, and you will perceive much affect. NOT getting a face tattoo
will not affect, IE, not CHANGE, not DEVIATE from the trajectory of your life.

(It should probably be noted that affect is the root of affection, and an
emotional term, especially when considering life change [ love is eternal ~
affect ~ affection ])

In the same sense, marrying someone should be done to preserve trajectory, to
solidify path, not to affect a life. Don't get married to change your life;
don't get married to "fix" things ( unless you mean fix in place, affix ). IE,
if you expect someone in your life, and losing them would be a bigger change
than marrying them, then marry them. It is the lesser noticed change.

If you don't follow my logic(and some folly), then you are fallible, not
affable.

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beerlord
Tattoos provide a useful function

That if present, they indicate that the wearer is a member of the working
class.

~~~
tsally
It's been at least three years since I've logged in, but I just did so to
downvote your incredibly ignorant comment. Congrats.

~~~
greenhatman
How does downvoting work? I assume only some or really old accounts can do it?

~~~
tsally
It's been a while but last time I checked it was just a certain karma
threshold. The idea was to prevent newly registered accounts from spamming
downvotes.

But again, haven't actively participated in HN for a while. Things could be
different now.

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lerie82
This title is severely misleading, the article discusses pigments in tattoo
ink, not tattoo ink in general. I am covered in tattoos, none of my tattoos
have color.

"but researchers suggest dirty needles aren’t the only risk of the age-old
practice"

I have also never seen an artist use a dirty needle, and would never let a
dirty needle hit my skin with ink.

