
Firefox and Thunderbird: A Fork in the Road - robin_reala
https://marksurman.commons.ca/2016/04/25/firefox-and-thunderbird-a-fork-in-the-road/
======
newscracker
It's sad to see that Mozilla considers desktop email clients as outdated. It's
true that most people use phone apps and webmail, but in enterprises the story
is completely different. MS Outlook rules in many places, but I'd bet there
are at least a few million people using Thunderbird as their desktop mail
client, more so in a (slightly "hostile") MS Exchange environment.

If Thunderbird were to really evolve and provide what people have been asking
for for a very, very, very long time, it is good calendaring that "just works"
with MS Exchange (I know about the extensions and external applications
available, but none of them provide a seamless experience or all features that
are required for calendaring).

Post Edward Snowden's revelations, more people need a good way to do encrypted
mails well too (that's complex and is also more of a user experience issue,
but an organization like the erstwhile Mozilla Messaging could have spent a
good amount of effort on it). Along with this, we would have encrypted chats
(since chat is already part of Thunderbird), encrypted voice calls, etc. That
would be phenomenal!

IMO, Mozilla really lost focus on Thunderbird long before it decided to shelve
it as a "community driven project".

~~~
digi_owl
Mozilla of today is run by designers, webheads and "social" personas.

As for encrypted email, it could be made very simple. When you set up an
account in Thunderbird, have it ask a simple question "do you have an
encryption key?". If the user hits no, generate the key pair, and insert the
public key by default.

Then starts harvesting public keys from incoming emails, and encrypt by
default if sending to an address that has a known public key.

~~~
stinkytaco
Doesn't this sort of abandon the trust model of PGP? If you make default
encryption a part of the system and an elevator pitch bullet point, I don't
think it's really fair to call it simple because a UI change would be needed
to ensure that though email may be encrypted, users can't necessarily trust
the identity of the sender.

~~~
pekk
In the status quo nothing is verified or encrypted anyway. When we make the
perfect the enemy of the good, we reinforce that status quo. As long as the
trust model of PGP depends on everyone to get the same religion, we are stuck
waiting for a messiah which will never come. If we have any hope of improving
the status quo, we need some kind of bootstrap, and that bootstrap won't look
exactly like the final result we want.

Ubiquitous email encryption would improve on the status quo, and prepare the
ground for further improvements. People who don't care would still be
generating more verifiable information than the status quo. People who want to
use encryption wouldn't be forced to drop it in order to talk to family and
friends. People who want to carefully manage their identities and use signing
to build a web of trust could build that on top of ubiquitous encryption. This
would get us closer to the PGP trust model than anyone has been able to do
purely by evangelizing the PGP trust model.

~~~
anexprogrammer
After so many years of email that's entirely in the free and clear, I'd
consider _any_ steps nearer encryption as beneficial. Even if fundamentally
weak improvements with annoucements littered with caveats for those in the
know.

I'd like for encrypted email to become a standard thing in my lifetime. We are
no nearer than when I trialled PGP in the 90s.

Then we can think about email that doesn't leak all your meta-data.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
A problem I foresee is Firefox's attempts to move away from XUL.[0] Firefox
might just about manage that move, but who will do that work for Thunderbird?
And once Firefox moves away from XUL, who will maintain XUL for Thunderbird's
sake?

[0] Firefox is still XUL-based for now, but I think the writing's on the wall
given the security issues with XUL and XPCOM, and Firefox's move away from
XUL/XPCOM-based extensions.

~~~
vancan1ty
Come over to Pale Moon
[[https://www.palemoon.org/](https://www.palemoon.org/)] (firefox fork
continuing XUL) and FossaMail
[[https://www.fossamail.org/](https://www.fossamail.org/)] (thunderbird fork
based on Pale Moon Goanna engine).

These products aren't perfect, but they allow the traditional strengths of
firefox (powerful extensions based on XUL/XPCOM) as opposed to the new
chromification of the firefox extension api. Also, you don't have the mozilla
politics and constant moral hectoring (if you read the firefox start page or
go to mozilla's website, I think you might know what I mean).

~~~
digi_owl
Frankly I am pondering going back to Seamonkey (what used to be the
Netscape/Mozilla application suite).

~~~
JohnTHaller
SeaMonkey likely has even fewer resources to maintain the mail engine within
than Thunderbird does.

------
r3bl
I honestly hope that LibreOffice will take over the development of
Thunderbird. They seem to be doing an excellent job at running a successful
open source project and Mozilla looks like it lost its course a couple of
years ago (before someone asks me why I think that:
[https://blog.r3bl.me/en/mozilla-
dissatisfaction/](https://blog.r3bl.me/en/mozilla-dissatisfaction/))

~~~
wsha
There are some parallels between LibreOffice and Thunderbird that make The
Documentation Foundation's adoption of Thunderbird attractive.

1\. Both LibreOffice and Thunderbird are desktop implementations of
applications for which most of the recent momentum has been behind web-based
implementations (Google docs, GMail, Office 365, etc.). So TDF is used to the
desktop vs. web dynamic.

2\. Both LibreOffice and Thunderbird has large installations in
business/government environments.

3\. Both LibreOffice and Thunderbird started out being governed by different
organizations and would be adopted by TDF (slightly different situation for
LibreOffice which was a fork, though Thunderbird will be forking off its
shared base with Firefox). So TDF is used to adopting legacy code and
continuing to evolve it.

That said, I hope the TDF scrutinizes Thunderbird and only takes it on if it
is confident that Thunderbird fits into its overall mission and
infrastructure. In recent times I have liked what I have seen from TDF and
been somewhat disappointed by Mozilla, so I wouldn't Thunderbird to hamper
LibreOffice's momentum.

------
hackuser
I get the sense that Thunderbird doesn't have cohesive vision or leadershihp:
All the big organizational moves seem to be Mozilla's initiative; I don't hear
about much happening at Thunderbird, technically or organizationally; and
Simon Phipps' report[1] says the following when considering an independent
Thunderbird Foundation, and the implication I take is that these issues can't
be resolved now:

    
    
        *   Creating a new entity involves resolving all of the
            issues currently facing Thunderbird and its community
            and then making them concrete in legally­binding bylaws
            and articles of association.  As such, it is a step best
            taken after these things have been resolved, rather than
            before.
    
        *   With all these things taken into account, I would not
            recommend this option as a first step.  However, it may
            become appropriate in the future for Thunderbird to
            separate from its new host and become a full independent
            entity, and the ability to do this should be considered
            in selecting a new home.
    
    

But my concern is based on only an intution plus a few observataions; does
anyone know? I don't mean it critically; it's hard to organize and find
leadership resources for a volunteer project. Mostly, I'm just concerned about
Thunderbird.

[1]
[https://blog.mozilla.org/thunderbird/files/2016/04/Finding-a...](https://blog.mozilla.org/thunderbird/files/2016/04/Finding-
a-Home-for-Thunderbird.pdf)

------
phantom_oracle
Mozilla is a weird organization.

Thunderbird makes client-side PGP encryption a little easier at a time in the
world where not only governments are harvesting every cat-gif email we send,
but also those Valley companies who harvest and analyze practically everything
we do, just to send us "better ads".

I do commend those volunteers who didn't sit on the internet and makes
comments like the rest of us, but took charge and kept Thunderbird alive.

~~~
darkclarity
Mozilla lives on money from the ad industry, so in a way they are all part of
the same system.

~~~
stinkytaco
It seems like the whole modern connected infrastructure we rely on relies on
money from the ad industry. Google, webmail services, free websites, all of
them rely on a small subset of companies that buy eyeballs. From an outsider,
it certainly seems like Mozilla is the only company in the space that's trying
to make the Internet better, rather than making the browser a path into their
own ecosystem of services (and consequently ads).

~~~
yeukhon
Firefox was created to be a browser in which the developers and the community
can have a voice, rather than having all decisions made by the enterprise. I
know there are many heroic stories and tales, but after all those are the two
goals.

Why are there laundromat, 99 cent store, Deli place and a bus stop next to a
street full of homes? Next to a college campus you'd find Deli and street food
vendors? Of course one can give out free food and you can always choose to
work from home so you never have to deal with pedestrian jam or the smoke
coming from the grill. For example I can skip WSJ paywall by not registering
any account and not reading any WSJ online articles. That's fine and the
anology of this is finding a suburban home. The public Internet is like New
York City, so many people, so many business, so much to navigate (but of
course as a NY resident I can get tired of the city myself). If you want no
ads, you have to lobby a group of politicians (actually companies) and
convenience them your plan is better and is more profitable. The thing is that
once there is a collation of business opportunity, uniting that knot is very
difficult because everyone has a piece in it. Few people want to bet on new
plan.

~~~
hackuser
> Firefox was created to be a browser in which the developers and the
> community can have a voice, rather than having all decisions made by the
> enterprise. I know there are many heroic stories and tales, but after all
> those are the two goals.

While I like these ideas, this isn't quite accurate. That may describe Mozilla
Application Suite (now Seamonkey) to some extent, but not Firefox. Mozilla's
mission is to promote the open Internet, as opposed to the proprietary one
(originally represented by IE's market dominance):

[https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/mission/](https://www.mozilla.org/en-
US/mission/)

------
ausjke
Firefox disrupted browser market and now Chrome/IE are making a trio not too
far from each other, it is now a uphill battle for Mozilla.

Thunderbird is the only choice across platform for Desktop usage. I use it
daily and don't mind paying for it.

On the other hand, since Microsoft is porting everything to Linux nowadays it
may one day port Outlook to Linux, who knows though I have never trusted them
and I have not used it for centuries.

Please keep Thunderbird evolving ahead.

~~~
digi_owl
Not likely. All MS have done towards Linux have been aimed at Linux on the
server/cloud.

Their latest move is about retaining web devs that use Ubuntu LXD for their
cloud servers by giving them a desktop development environment within Window
that match their cloud environment.

Full blown Linux on desktop, and mobile (hello android), is still under
attack.

------
AndyMcConachie
I depend on Thunderbird and have for many years. It's a great mail client. I
hope it continues to be a great mail client.

~~~
jonah
I do too and I don't know what I would replace it with if it becomes no longer
viable.

What other "serious" email clients are out there for Mac?

~~~
sethhochberg
Postbox is a pretty great Thunderbird derivative. [https://www.postbox-
inc.com/](https://www.postbox-inc.com/)

I love Airmail, but require something cross-platform. Postbox isn't as pretty,
but is cross platform, priced right, and has great default config out of the
box.

~~~
JohnTHaller
I'd recommend against PostBox. It's a Thunderbird derivative, so it has the
same security vulnerabilities as Thunderbird does. But it's not updated
regularly. The current build of PostBox was last updated in November 2015. It
appears to bundle Gecko (Mozilla rendering engine) 7.0.1 which was a part of
Firefox/Thunderbird 7 back in 2011. And the only version of Lightning
(calendar and tasks) for PostBox is "experimental and unsupported" and was
last updated in 2012.

You're better served using Thunderbird and any extensions you'd like to tweak
things a bit.

------
EdSharkey
Keep hard charging on Firefox, Mozilla. If all you have resources and focus
for is the browser, then so be it.

Firefox is your iOS -- if you need to gut the Lion team for a year or three in
order to ship a stable world-beater, then DO THAT!

Maybe circle back to email in a few years after Firefox stabilizes, that would
be cool too.

------
tomc1985
"Success for Firefox means continued relevance in the mass consumer market as
a way for people to access, shape and feel safe across many devices."

Gah! No! It should mean that Firefox continues to be an awesome, customizable
web browser! Why does all this wishy-washy "feelings" crap have to creep into
their mission statement?

~~~
untog
"feel safe" is not "wishy-washy "feelings" crap". It has all sorts of
implications - privacy, security...

~~~
jqm
Ya, well I'd rather be safe than feel safe.

------
norea-armozel
I'm not surprised Thunderbird is breaking off considering how much the Web-
only approach to just about every service is in full effect. How do you serve
up ads in an email client without pissing everyone off? Obviously you can't do
it so Thunderbird has to go!

Also, for most people the email address they have isn't for legitimate
correspondence considering how many people use Snap Chat, FB Messenger,
WeChat, and the like to keep in contact with people. Why bother making an
email client even it's available in the app store (phone) when folks will
sooner install an IM app? It's not to say email, conceptually as a form of
communication, has no uses. It's just that email as it stands today sorely
needs refactoring to include everything from IMs (multimedia based or just
pure text) to long form correspondence with varying degrees of confidentiality
(encryption) and possibly including some form of file-sharing linking (not so
much directly tied into the client/server protocols). I'm not sure the current
email server and client protocols can handle such a refactoring without
breaking backwards compatibility (therefore pissing off everyone who is still
using email). Some email clients do some of the things I'm already suggesting.
Some of them do it very well, but honestly am I off the mark on this line of
thought? I have to think possibly I am, but I'll leave it to you all to
consider.

------
j1vms
Can someone here comment on why creating & maintaining a solid local desktop
email client is such a costly, moving target, such that it has required an
organization the size of Mozilla to pursue it and get it "nearly" right? Is
the bulk of Thunderbird maintenance work happening in its "HTML render/js
component(s)"? If so, could we stabilize on a Thunderbird without HTML
render/js support, providing it only as optional add-on?

~~~
r3bl
Because email is a decades old technology that, thanks to its decentralization
and such a wide spread usage, is impossible to improve.

I highly recommend this blog post about a guy trying to make its own email
client and failing to do so miserably because emails are such a mess :
[http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2015/02/...](http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2015/02/email_overload_building_my_own_email_app_to_reach_inbox_zero.html)

Edit: removed the Pocket redirect from the URL.

------
hackuser
Related:

KDE is not the right place for Thunderbid

[http://www.elpauer.org/2016/04/kde-is-not-the-right-place-
fo...](http://www.elpauer.org/2016/04/kde-is-not-the-right-place-for-
thunderbid/)

~~~
breakingcups
Seems to have been deleted?

------
acqq
I guess the main question is who will actually own the Thunderbird license
after the split? If the ownership of most of the code remains at Mozilla but
Mozilla doesn't care, what would be the motivation of any funded entity to
continue the development of Thunderbird?

~~~
thomasrossi
to create a business model like airmail, but for the android counterpart. It
would be cool!

------
ramgorur
thunderbird used to be a great mail client, but became extremely sluggish and
I think it's also bloated. So I moved to claws-mail and mutt, they are
lighting fast.

