
How to grip a pen? - owenshen24
https://mlu.red/muse/52609266310.html
======
zubspace
I've actually learned how to hold a pen ergonomically by Taylor Swift. [1]
Sounds crazy, but I use the grip with a drawing tablet pen and it just feels
natural.

I hold the pen between index finger and middle finger and use the thumb to
click buttons.

I started to get some RSI pain using a normal mouse, because I believe the
hand seems to rest too flat on the table. I first switched to one of those
crazy ergonomic mice [2] without much success, because I think, there the hand
position is just too steep/vertical. Then I completely switch from a mouse to
a drawing tablet and I fully recovered. I also think, that you don't need as
much force to move around your hand compared to a mouse.

[1] [http://spdrdng.com/posts/how-to-hold-your-pen-in-the-most-
er...](http://spdrdng.com/posts/how-to-hold-your-pen-in-the-most-ergonomic-
way)

[2] [https://www.amazon.co.uk/CSL-Wireless-Vertical-Ergonomic-
But...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/CSL-Wireless-Vertical-Ergonomic-
Buttons/dp/B00JODVD5K)

~~~
jermaustin1
Oddly enough, when i'm going for long writing periods, the Taylor Swift method
is how i do it. I've been writing that way since high school when we had to
write out 5-10-page essays instead of typing them. I get slightly less
control, but can chicken scratch for hours without any fatigue.

------
Jaruzel
As a left hander, writing is difficult. Western writing favours right handers;
from the direction of flow, down to the formation of letters.

That coupled with mild dyspraxia, meant that I have a death grip on a pen - I
grip it so hard the ends of my fingers turn white, all the while trying to
control my movement as if an invisible force is constantly tugging the nib in
random directions.

And don't get me started on fountain pens - they are explicitly designed to be
'dragged' across the page. As a left hander you mostly 'push' \- I broke so
many fountain pen nibs, until I eventually gave up using them.

Changing my grip on a pen now, would probably make all my issues worse, not
better!

~~~
pjc50
So people used to think there was only one standard-issue type of brain, and
that everyone's brain operated in the same way and could learn the same things
equally well, and a single optimal technique could be developed and taught
once to everyone. The Taylorist dream, among others. But left handed people
kept stubbornly existing, despite the beatings. And then education discovered
that dyslexia and dyspraxia are things. And the not-well-understood category
of "non-neurotypical" people currently classified into conditions like autism,
Aspergers, ADHD etc. Eventually we're going to learn to fit the technique to
the human rather than the other way round. People over processes, and all
that.

This may explain why people have strong-but-wildly-different opinions about
which programming languages are "intuitive". Maybe some are just ""left-
handed"", in a very non-literal sense.

(I'm a left hander from just slightly after the "beating children for being
left-handed" era, but I expect there's someone in the audience who remembers
it)

~~~
jjeaff
Even if we make lots of adjustments to teach according to the child's needs, I
think one glaring issue will remain and it's that we read and write left to
right. Which is an issue for left handers no matter what. Pushing the writing
implement and dragging your hand over what you just wrote seems inevitable.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
I have heard that there are left-handed pens. Geometrically and mechanically,
they're the same as regular pens. The difference is that they hold faster-
drying ink.

I have not actually confirmed this, or even seen them for sale. I don't even
know where you'd go to buy them (Amazon, probably). But if you're a lefty, it
might be worth looking into.

~~~
detaro
Here in Germany (where fountain pens are normal in school) you see them all
over the place. Never heard about variations with in ink though, rather it's
about the shape of the pen (many aren't symmetric) and the cut of the nib, so
it works better at typical angles.

------
hatmatrix
In Japan I believe the (true and only correct) way to hold a pen is taught and
emphasized from a young age, while the United States maintains a "do it your
way" mentality about it. It may have to do with chopsticks requiring similar
precision or that it is difficult to follow the detailed prescriptions for
writing Chinese characters otherwise - I'm just speculating here.

~~~
konart
Same in Russia, to a lesser defgree. For pens\penls\forks\knives.

My grip was always 'right' but I clearly remember my father commenting every
time he saw a person holding his tool the wrong way. To him me doing it the
right way was like a little victory or something.

~~~
simplegeek
What's the preferred grip taught in Russia?

~~~
konart
Something like this:
[https://ds04.infourok.ru/uploads/ex/07fb/00195c5a-00265f89/6...](https://ds04.infourok.ru/uploads/ex/07fb/00195c5a-00265f89/640/img1.jpg)

But general idea is that you have to do simple exercises with a kid before
school so that a kid won't be just clenching a pen like they usually do with a
spoon when they a small.

We even have a short poem for breaks during such exercises. :D

Something like this:

We were writting, we were writting,

Our fingers got all tired.

Gonna get a little rest

Then we'll pick from where we left.

------
alderz
I love how the Escher's work "Drawing hands" shows the "correct" way to hold a
pen: [https://moa.byu.edu/wp-
content/uploads/lw355.jpg](https://moa.byu.edu/wp-content/uploads/lw355.jpg)

I think I changed my grip after seeing the painting.

~~~
kazinator
More importantly, Escher's drawing also shows us a DIY pencil handle that
turns free IKEA freebies into a full-length writing instruments.

------
gumby
I’m surprised they don’t teach this in US schools. I just Saturday had a large
stack of documents notarized and I observed the poor notary getting hand
cramps. Then I saw her grip on her pen and it was no wonder. I felt sorry for
her.

~~~
yboris
I was born in Russia, we were taught to hold a pen a certain way. We had
exercises too (one I remember: grip the pen (with 3 fingers) and dab it
forward-and-back by bending the three fingers and unbending them). I was
shocked at the way people help pens in the US when I arrived.

The grip we were taught I believe gives you more control over the pen, with no
straining -- just an elegant extension of fingertips.

------
blahedo
The most important thing I did to "ease" my pen grip was to stop using ball-
point pens. They require a _lot_ more pressure in order to put ink to paper
than, say, a gel pen. My hands thank me!

~~~
dotancohen
Ball-point pens actually were very painful for me to use after breaking my
dominant hand thumb. Fountain pens forced me to both grip and stoke much more
gently, and even fifteen years later I still use fountain pens almost
exclusively.

~~~
pjc50
"Gel" pens are a good compromise, involving a ball but requiring less
pressure. As are "technical" pens, although a bit pricey.

~~~
falcolas
Rollerball require the least pressure (of the ball-point pend family), but the
near-complete lack of resistance actually makes it harder to write neatly,
since you can't rely on the friction to keep the pen under control.

A good fountain pen nib is similar, since it tends to glide over the paper on
top of the ink.

------
bikenaga
Somewhere online (maybe here) I read the suggestion to hold the pen between
the index and middle fingers (with the thumb slightly below and to the side,
where it will naturally fall). I've done it this way ever since - it's much
more comfortable, and I find it easier to control the pen.

~~~
1MachineElf
I've held a pen like this all my life. Long term effects are a callous on the
middle finger front-most knuckle and a slightly crooked index finger. Gets the
job done, but I wonder if there is a better way.

~~~
lisper
There is.

1\. Touch the pad of your thumb to the pad of your index finger.

2\. Curl your middle finger slightly so that the side of the tip of your
middle finger just touches the side of your thumb. There should be no space
between your middle and index fingers.

3\. If you've done it properly, your hand will feel completely relaxed, and
there will be a little triangular-shaped hole created by your thumb, index,
and middle fingers. Stick the pen in this hole and hold it just tightly enough
to keep it from falling out. It should take almost no muscle tension to hold
it in place.

This is very similar to what you've described. You may still get a callus on
your middle finger, but your index finger should not be crooked.

------
arketyp
I've used the dynamic quadrupod grip my entire life, fingers very close to the
tip of the pen by the way. I used to draw a lot as a kid and I think this grip
gives good precision. It's not ideal for extended periods of writing perhaps,
but it's not too bad of a compromise.

~~~
jansan
Same here. Teachers tried to push me to the "correct" grip, but it just did
not work for me. They said I would get severe hand pain if I grow older. Never
happened, always felt comfortable with this grip.

------
jccalhoun
I use what they call the "dynamic quadrupod" grip. I've tried the "correct"
grip but I find that either the pen is at a lower angle or I have to turn my
wrist more to get it at a higher angle. Maybe it is because I'm left handed
but neither of those options work as well for me.

I try not to judge but when I see someone hold a pen between their index and
middle finger I find it hard not to. A few years ago Taylor Swift was in a
Coke commercial where she was writing lyrics. The first thing I noticed was
how she holds her pen and it drove me crazy.
[https://imgur.com/QyTQpre](https://imgur.com/QyTQpre)

------
hprotagonist
Grip matters a great deal for a calligraphic hand. Take a chisel-tip felt pen
and try to write sensibly with the broad part of the chisel, and you’ll
quickly discover a few things: why calligraphic hands look like they do, how
to form letters with a mixture of line widths, and how your hand has to hold
the pen in order to produce legible text.

Incidentally there’s this often implicit belief that people’s handwriting was
better in the past than it is now. I mostly don’t believe this—there’s just a
sample bias towards only showing the nice writing that was often made by
professional scribes. And some scribes had shitty hands, too.

~~~
falcolas
> implicit belief that people’s handwriting was better in the past than it is
> now

I, on the other hand, believe this. When typing doesn't exist, and your
livelihood depends on your records being legible, you put a lot more effort
into legibility (and having heard a few stories about the corporal punishment
associated with poor handwriting in schools a century ago, you'd get better
out of pure self-preservation).

To back that up with an anecdote, I found a box of private bank ledgers
maintained by my maternal grandfather, and I was absolutely astounded at how
neatly he wrote. These were for only his own consumption, but the handwriting
was clearly legible to me a five decades later.

Even my mother's handwriting is quite legible, even though computers became
popular in her 40's (and typewriters in her teens).

~~~
jandrese
Occasionally you'll find old notes from some club that Newton was a member of
or similar historic handwritten notes posted to this site and usually the
handwriting is horrible, but also highly variable. Some people having nearly
impenetrable script while other script looks beautiful.

One person with amazingly clear handwriting: Donald Knuth. I showed one of his
handwritten notes to a colleague and they asked why he had typed it up in a
Comic Sans derivative.

------
webconnoisseur
I was just discussing this with my wife as my 6-year old daughter developed an
interesting grip (not shown in any of those pictures). With humans being
creatures of habit, I'm curious if there is generally a certain age where the
grip should be corrected, especially if it looks like a straining one. I
remember having a co-worker who held her pen in her fist, like she was writing
with a boxing glove on (puts all the strain in the arm, elbow & shoulder).

~~~
willtim
My 6 year old does the grip first described in the post. Her school teacher
has shown much apathy in correcting it and even suggested it was "too late"
(UK state school). I'm going to try and help her myself. Tips include shorter
pencils and "pinch and flip": [http://mamaot.com/3-tricks-to-help-kids-learn-
to-hold-their-...](http://mamaot.com/3-tricks-to-help-kids-learn-to-hold-
their-pencil-correctly/)

~~~
Double_a_92
When I went to school we had little rubber things that you could slide onto a
pencil. It had dimples for where your fingers were supposed to go. Also it was
soft so you didn't hurt your fingers until you got the pressure right.

(Apparently they are sold as "pencil grips".)

------
jeherr
I have crazy hitchhiker's thumb, so much so that I can bend my thumb almost
straight backwards. When I hold a pen I cradle it with my index, middle, and
ring finger all opposite my thumb, which is angled backwards and applies the
pressure onto the pen. I don't think I've ever seen anyone else who holds a
pen like I do. I get comments on it all the time.

------
mrob
I was never taught how to hold a pen correctly as a child, and self-taught the
first bad method from the chart (index finger overlapping thumb). I assumed
writing was supposed to hurt, and never questioned this until I was an adult
because it was consistent with my perception that the main purpose of school
was to inflict suffering on children.

I think this might have contributed to my interest in computers. I starting
typing all assignments as early as possible, because it was so much faster and
less painful. I later taught myself conventional pen grip, and then switched
to a Lamy Safari fountain pen. The Lamy Safari has an approximately triangular
section grip part, which forces conventional grip. I think all pens and
pencils used in schools should have this design.

~~~
ivix
Wow. You may want to take the opportunity to look at every aspect of your life
and look for where you should be questioning how things are done. NM

------
colechristensen
I have never able to hold a pen like I'm "supposed" to, or really how I've
seen described. I hold my pen between the pad of my thumb and the side of my
index finger in the neighborhood of the first knuckle.

~~~
jansan
I really wonder who came up with the idea that one and the same grip must be
the "correct" one for everybody.

~~~
mnl
I come from a family of schoolteachers and as far as I can tell since the 19th
century the grip they taught was something like the "dynamic tripod", which of
course is the one I use (and advocate strongly). Modern teachers who don't
teach "proper" postural techniques just don't know better or have been told it
doesn't matter. I think it does. There's a proper way to hold a pool cue, a
golf club, a violin or a chef's knife. They come from people who were good at
it and did it for a living, so what you're looking at are ways of doing it
fast, accurately and for extended periods of time without injuring yourself.
Handwriting isn't any different, it's just apparently not essential anymore.

I concede left-handed proper grips don't have that much tradition. As
everything concerning left-handed people, they should get more consideration
(maybe looking again at the practical assumptions about symmetry made by
right-handed people).

------
harimau777
Hmm, I seem to do a hybrid of the dynamic tripod and the lateral tripod. I
hold "grip" the pen using the side of my thumb like in the lateral tripod, but
I guide the tip with my index finger like in the dynamic tripod.

I also don't rest any of my fingers on the paper. Instead I rest the side of
my hand on the paper.

I remember as a child I didn't like the feeling of pulling on the pad of my
index finger when I gripped with my fingers (e.g. the dynamic grips) which is
why I used the lateral style grip.

------
tartoran
There's a very interesting adjustable pen, the Yoropen [0]. I haven't tried
and I am not left handed but it might be interesting to try.

[0]
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IYUO3EM?tag=aboutcom02thebalanc...](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IYUO3EM?tag=aboutcom02thebalancesmb-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1&ascsubtag=4156552%7Cn5cdbfda5abcc45c7b005903b8f74e79d15)

------
bakul
I have always used the dynamic tripod grip (the same grip shown in Escher’s
“Drawing Hands” drawing). I am right-handed but I write “away” from me, at a
60° angle or more. I wonder how common this is. While writing with the Apple
“pencil” on the iPad, I typically have to use the orientation lock! Some apps
such as Goodnotes allow you to control the angle but not Apple’s own Notes.

------
bepvte
As someone with serious writing issues, I can recommend the "penagain" for
being really excellent to use

~~~
anonsivalley652
My handwriting looks like I had a cerebral hemorrhage and then Parkinson's. I
don't know how I made it through primary school when penmanship was still
graded, although the grading was in its waning years.

------
leg100
Then there is this funky avant garde grip:

[http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/236206-alterna...](http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/236206-alternative-
grip/)

~~~
btbuildem
Um.. I've always used this grip with either hand, didn't realize that it was
so "out there"

------
Causality1
What I've noticed among my friends and family is that the people with the
ugliest pen grip also have the prettiest writing. My grip is beautiful but I
write like a meth-addicted gorilla.

------
btbuildem
OK, so you hold a pen like a child. Props for noticing and improving your
technique -- ingrained habits are difficult to change, takes a lot of
mindfulness at first.

------
joecool1029
Weird that this post came up and I missed it before. My last few comments were
on my trials and tribulations with handwriting.

In kindergarten my teacher had the students use these, they helped guide
proper form (in the US like 25+ years ago): [https://www.amazon.com/Pencil-
Grip-Universal-Ergonomic-TPG-1...](https://www.amazon.com/Pencil-Grip-
Universal-Ergonomic-TPG-11106/dp/B001SN8HOY)

------
usui
I write with both hands, so maybe I can explain some of the issues that I run
into with left-handed writing, and how it differs from my experience with my
right hand. This is a topic I have thought about greatly.

Left-handed writing, as a core difference from which all other differences
stem, has you pushing on the page, which would make a right-handed writer feel
uncomfortable since it is never a muscle that needs to be used for the latter.
This results in shaky or crooked writing.

Another experience I have from pushing during left-handed writing is that my
hand tires faster, as I try to switch between "bent-inward" index finger and
relaxed index finger, which I use interchangeably depending on how much fine
control I need. Using the bipod or "index and thumb" grip helps for fatigue,
but it loses precision.

Finally there is the angle of the palm which varies greatly among left-handed
writers, which is how do I rotate the paper so that I don't smudge my writing,
or so that I can see my writing as I go? The more the paper is rotated, the
more uncomfortable it gets, but it has utility. Here are some nice diagrams on
the variations:
[http://www.musanim.com/mam/lefthand.htm](http://www.musanim.com/mam/lefthand.htm)

For right-handed writing, most of these are never a concern for me. My right
hand "pulls" on the page in the rightward direction and I never have to rotate
the page in order to align with the writing line. Writing comes by pointing
the pencil where I want it to go and then "moving" it right, rather than for
left-handed writing I have to push "right and forward".

The rise of writing on tablet computers has improved the writing experience
for left-handed writers by a significant amount because it can pan, zoom, and
rotate as necessary. Still there remains the issue of having to push.

So if I can choose to use my right hand to write at all, why would I use my
left hand? This may be a placebo effect, but I find that using my left hand to
write allowed me to soak in concepts and let them ruminate as I write the
notes. It becomes a more "personal" attachment to the notes I'm taking,
whereas right-handed helped produce as much writing as needed.

One advantage with left-handed writing comes when using a tablet. Many
notetaking apps such as "Goodnotes 5" do not present a color wheel to appear
at where your pencil is pointing. The color palette stays fixed at the top
right corner. Having to change color rapidly but keep the pencil in the same
place is possible by using my right finger to change the color. And if I have
to use the tools stuck at the top left corner, I switch to writing with my
right hand and use my left hand for tool selection.

Finally, one nichr benefit from using both hands to write is simultaneous two-
handed writing. Once can produce writing faster by using both hands to write
at the same time if you can visualize ahead fast enough. It also helps when
using two different pen colors (red + blue) simultaneously. It would be great
if I could think in parallel and write notes in two different topics or
languages at once.

I wonder if there are any other ambidextrous writers on here who can also
weigh in with their experience.

