
Asus to surpass Apple in notebook sales: TrendForce - yuhong
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2016/10/31/2003658243
======
pyrophane
Well, ok. Reading the data here, Apple and Asus shipped about the same number
of notebooks last year at 17m. This year, Asus is expected to hold the line at
around 17m, while Apple shipments are predicted dropping to 13m.

I would say two things about this:

1) Except for the MacBook, it has been a year without new Apple notebooks
until last week's announcement. Most of the Mac product line has been pretty
crusty all year, so I imagine a lot of people have been waiting.

2) Asus ships some sub-$300 notebooks. Apple's start at $1000.

Given all that, I wouldn't say this comparison is particularly revealing.

~~~
lmm
I think it's a sign of commodification coming to notebooks, as happened years
ago with desktops. People are no longer upgrading so frequently and no longer
feel the need to go for a top-of-the-line model when they do. If sub-$300
notebooks are outselling $1000+ notebooks I'd say that's a very revealing
development.

~~~
amiga-workbench
Its already happened, there is crud like the HP Stream on sale for a tiny
amount of money and most of the market is stagnant with cancerous 1366x768 TN
panels and truly mediocre hardware.

~~~
bgroins
Or as average/low income non-elitists call it: my affordable computer that
works just fine for what I do.

~~~
amiga-workbench
They would be better served by purchasing a 4-5 year old refurbed business
grade computer like an Elitebook or a ThinkPad for ~120 pounds off ebay rather
than buying a creaky consumer grade blob running on repurposed tablet
hardware.

The industry's constant race to the bottom is getting really tiresome.

------
hellofunk
I think part of the recent sentiment towards Apple is due to the expectations
game. If it had been a different company, like Asus, to introduce a very thin,
very lightweight computer with excellent graphics and a touch strip, I think a
lot of people would be thinking, "wow! Asus is really innovating! what a
useful little machine!". But because it is Apple, the expectations go far
beyond that of any other company, so the probability of disappointment is very
high.

~~~
Eridrus
It's not just the expectations, Apple's price tags demand innovation. If
they're not doing anything special you can get much cheaper hardware.

~~~
hellofunk
I'm curious if, beyond innovative features, the actual build quality and
battery life of a machine should command higher prices. I had a couple Windows
laptops (one by Dell) with quite poor battery life. My MacBook Pro from 2011
goes all day with serious activity without a charge, sometimes 2 days.

I don't discredit the disappointment in the recent Apple laptop announcements,
but I do think that paying a premium price for a genuinely solid machine is
reasonable, even if that machine doesn't have a rapid change in features. I've
never had any other laptop last over 5 years without any major problems.

And it is also hard for me to deny that after lugging around a heavier laptop
for awhile, having a light Macbook Pro definitely is easier when on the go.

~~~
solvedit
> My MacBook Pro from 2011 goes all day with serious activity without a charge

As an owner of a 2011 MacBook Pro with a recently replaced battery, I don't
believe you. We either don't share the same understanding of "all day",
"serious activity", "without a charge", or "goes".

~~~
hellofunk
Well by serious activity I mean writing C++ all day in emacs and compiling it
maybe a hundred times or more. And the usual web browsing, email throughout
the day.

I can easily make it through a full work day doing this without plugging in
the machine.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
Running emacs practically counts as letting the machine idle these days. I
know it used to be considered super bloated, but even fart apps use more
resources now.

------
SamUK96
To be honest, the zenbook line has been a big hit. Good value and very sexy.

Wish I had enough money for the UX390UA. It's basically faster, thinner,
lighter, sexier Dell XPS...

~~~
BoorishBears
I have its predecessor, the 303UB and on paper it's great, but it's not as
nice as I expected.

The 4K screen has a "faux 4K" pentile-like layout so smaller text and any type
of thin line look horrid on Windows and stock Ubuntu (I Hackintoshed it for
better multi monitor support and OSX anti-aliasing looks much better, making
me wonder if Retinas have the same type of "faux 4K")

The screen also has the same horrible yellow tint defect as several other 13"
4K models I looked at.

The touch screen has a layer above the screen that becomes really noticeable
in certain light (Bot that the touch screen is really of any use on a non-
transforming laptop).

The list goes on.

~~~
SamUK96
Isn't that the line with the Core M chips? They were a travesty for Windows
10. ~1000p on Passmark lol. Compare to an i7 6500U CPU, which has ~4500.

TBH, 4K laptop screens are a _total_ scam.

~~~
BoorishBears
It's a i7 6xxxU (I don't remember the exact model off hand but I'd guess it's
the 6500) with a GTX 940M...

Hi-Dpi support was so shoddy with multiple monitors on Windows and Linux that
I sacrificed access to the 940M to Hackintosh it

------
wineisfine
If you read all the comments here, nobody seams really 100% happy with their
laptop. And apple really blew it.

------
s_kilk
Are there any Asus laptops which work painlessly with Linux?

~~~
akvar
I run Ubuntu 16.04.1 (no Windows partition) on an Asus X555 (8GB RAM, 120GB
SSD). Works extremely smooth. I've also used the same setup on a Transformer
series notebook and have had no issues at all. It's honestly been my best
notebook experience - having used Acer & Lenovo before (not that those
notebooks were bad)

~~~
s_kilk
Thanks! :)

How easy was the installation? Any crazy stunts to get it all working?

~~~
akvar
Nope. Simply installed from a USB drive. Of course, there's a little effort if
you want a Windows partition, but that has been documented / blogged about ad
nauseam, so shouldn't be too difficult.

------
aq3cn
Quality wise who is better and reliable as a Windows or Linux machine
manufacturer. Help me create a sequence:

1\. Razer 2\. Asus 3\. Microsoft 4\. Dell 5\. Lenovo 6\. HP 7\. Acer 8\. Sony
(?) 9\. Samsung Apple (?) Clevo (?) Toshiba (?) system76 (?) alienware (?)

~~~
anexprogrammer
Lenovo ideapad (cheap ones, superfish, avoid) and Lenovo Thinkpad (no
superfish, mostly good) should be thought separate manufacturers. They're not
comparable.

For quality and reliability. This is astonishingly subjective and quite
probably wrong :p

1\. Thinkpad. Not as good as they were, but _appear_ to be trying to improve
again. Usually a fairly safe bet for BSD & Linux drivers. Support (UK) have
been excellent.

2\. Dell 2\. HP (Like with Lenovo separate the cheap consumer crap, and the
well made professional ranges)

3\. The rest

4\. Apple. Well made, hopeless for upgrade, now very overpriced. New keyboard
seems to be disliked on reviews so far.

99\. Acer - Pet hate brand that always seems to have far more than fair share
of issues, and support (UK) terrible.

No experience of clevo or system76. Not sure MS have been around long enough
with Surface to judge well yet. Personally I would be wary of Razer, though
I've not owned a laptop of theirs, which might be superb. None of their mice
and keyboards seem to last 5 minutes. Santa will bring the kids no more Razer
Nagas.

~~~
cryptrash
How can thinkpads reasonably be trusted after superfish though? Some security
agencies don't even allow Lenovo hardware onsite, sort of implies something...

~~~
bildung
"Lenovo ideapad (cheap ones, superfish, avoid) and Lenovo Thinkpad (no
superfish, mostly good) should be thought separate manufacturers. They're not
comparable."

~~~
mcphage
Except they're _not_ separate manufacturers...

~~~
scholia
Actually, they may well be separate manufacturers. See may comment above
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12845499](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12845499)

------
nihonde
When are these publications going to figure out that volume shipped vs Apple
is a pointless milestone? I'm interested in margins and revenues, but not
units shipped.

~~~
dingaling
> I'm interested in margins and revenues, but not units shipped.

In that case Panasonic's Toughbooks would be the clear winner in the general-
market space. Their low-end 'business rugged' laptops start at £1800 for an i5
spec... though with a three-year warranty.

Once you move into specialist fields such as mediical and defence there are
vendors whose laptops have margins that would make Apple cry, but who 'earn'
those through jumping through many many regulatory hoops. Dell played-around
in that space in the late 2000s, their mil-cert laptops started around $5000
with standard Latitude innards.

~~~
protomyth
> but who 'earn' those through jumping through many many regulatory hoops

They also earn it by knowing that those niches are willing to pay and normal
computers can be problematic to an outright danger[1].

If you happen to have an employee that is a bit "rough" with their notebook
and is a Windows user, a Panasonic Toughbook is a great buy. They are built
like tanks and Panasonic knows their users.

Also, if you have a dust or grain dust[2] environment, you most definitely
should buy medical computers. We have a carpentry area that needs computers
and the sealed medical computers are perfect. I use
[http://www.cybernetman.com](http://www.cybernetman.com) because I like the
reps.

1) having a sealed computer that you can wipe down with Lysol is an amazing
benefit for a hospital setting.

2) do not f around with normal computers in a grain dust environment unless
you like fires and explosions. You want to take precautions to get proper
clean airflow or use sealed computers.

------
agentgt
Last year I finally switched to mac for work (I had family mac air).

Before that I always used thinkpads. I still think the 15" T60 was one of the
best computers I have owned. I would have stayed with it if I could upgrade
16gb (ahh Java development). The new thinkpads are bad.

I'm sort of annoyed that I finally got used to mac and it is now down a path
of crap (love the form factor... hate the Mac UI and no upgrade).

~~~
positivecomment
> it is now down a path of crap

People always said Apple evokes feelings. Now it seems obvious that it goes
both ways. I acknowledge that it is impossible to be objective on this issue
(different use cases, different people, different habits and so on) but saying
that they are on a "path of crap" is too strong for most of the time, I bet. I
haven't ever used any Apple product, so it's just a _somewhat_ external
observation.

~~~
agentgt
Yes the comment was probably too harsh (I'm on the phone so it is harder to be
tactful). Crap is also not very descriptive.

------
nkoren
My girlfriend got a Zenbook a couple of weeks ago. It's a really nice machine
-- not quite what I need for development purposes, but very very good. Put me
in mind to see what kind of Zenbook might suit my needs. So I headed down to
[http://www.asus.com/zenbook/](http://www.asus.com/zenbook/) to see what kind
of machines they had and how much they cost.

That's how I discovered one of Apple's secret weapons, which it seems nobody
is talking about: _purchasability_.

My expectation was that Asus's site would allow me to:

    
    
      1. Browse their catalogue of computers.
      2. Compare their pricing and features.
      3. Buy one.
    

These are expectations which Apple's online store has given me, and I don't
think they're extravagant. But with ASUS I could do exactly _none_ of those.
Nowhere on the site could I find a simple list of Zenbook models. Instead,
there's _so much flowery copywriting_ about how smart and sexy and popular a
Zenbook will make me. Jesus Christ, it goes on forever. Are they using an
infinite scroll? Anyhow, eventually I reach the bottom of the page: no list of
available computers with specifications. WTF.

Okay, let's try "Find Your Zen" \-- maybe, um, that'll help me pick a machine
per the features I want?

No, it's some kind of personality profile, asking me what my aspirations are
in life. My aspirations are to buy a fucking 13"-14" notebook with a decent
CPU, an hdpi screen, an SSD, 8gb of RAM and a real HDMI port. Fine, let's pick
some random options and see what it gives us.

Oooh, it says I should by some kind of flip-book! Actually I didn't know that
existed and it looks pretty cool. The UX360UA. Yep, I'd go for that I guess,
but it would be nice to see it side-by-side with other options. Anyhow, how
much does it cost?

No idea. Doesn't say anywhere on the site. WTF?

Okay, let's go to [http://currys.co.uk/](http://currys.co.uk/) to find out.
Search for Zenbooks. 78 options. Damnit, no, let's narrow down the screen
size. WTF, it says they doesn't have any 13" models? Oh, no, I see -- their
search filters are just completely busted. Fine, let's search through the
whole list until we find what we want.

Hm. They don't have the UX360UA, but they have something that looks identical
called the UX360CA. Er.... what's the difference? Is that like a different
model number for the UK market? No way to tell.

...Spend 5 minutes Googling, since there's no way to search for anything or
compare features on the ASUS site... finally find a comparison which makes it
clear that the UX360CA is has a down-rated CPU, definitely unsuitable for my
work. Looks like Curry's just doesn't carry the machine I want.

Okay, let's try Amazon.

Searching for UX360UA pulls up scores of options, most of them having nothing
to do with the UX360UA. Finally, however, I can see a price -- a mere half an
hour after first looking for it on the Asus site -- but it's out of stock!
Alas. Oh, it's also available from other vendors for a bit more, but still a
good deal... let's do that!

And, hey, this is thing is _loaded_! It's got a 256gb SSD _and_ a 512gb HD. I
admit: I could make use of that.

I get as far as putting it onto my wishlist before I notice that it's actually
a UX310UA rather than a UX360UA. Just one character difference: can't blame
Amazon for thinking that the Levenshtein distance was close enough to make it
a match. But WTF, I now have no idea what kind of computer this is or whether
it would be suitable for me. Still have no idea how much a UX360UA that I can
actually _buy_ would cost, nor have I been able to do a side-by-side
comparison of it with any other options.

So how the hell am I supposed to purchase this thing??? Had to give up for the
day; I'll come back to it when I have more free time.

In contrast, Apple's retail experience (both online and physical) is... well,
there's a lot of it that's extraordinarily polished, probably to the point of
superfluousness, but they've got the very most basic mechanism figured out:

    
    
      1. Here's what we've got.
      2. Choose what you want.
      3. Buy it.
    

This allowed me to buy my current Macbook Pro at the Apple store on Regent
street in under 12 minutes. I deeply appreciated the straightforwardness of
that purchasing experience (in contrast to my girlfriend, who, when picking up
her Zenbook from Currys, had to spend 15 minutes in a back room turning down
upselling offers etc). Is this really so hard for others to accomplish?

And no, Dell isn't any better at this. Nor is HP. I haven't checked with
Silverfish^H^H^H^H Lenovo yet but am not particularly interested in their
machines. In any case, this is one area where industry needs to get better at
aping Apple.

~~~
user5994461
Purchasability AND limited choice. They're both part of the success.

