
Ask HN: Am I being exploited? - throwawayaya
Hi there! (using a throwaway)<p>I currently work as a student engineer at state school in California being paid 15$&#x2F;hr. After much thinking, I currently feel that I am being underpaid and exploited for my skills. Currently, I&#x27;m building a service that should entail a production ready app in iOS, Android, website, and server setup as well as website&#x2F;app design and logo creation and branding all by myself. The due dates the present want me done within 4 months, with an hour cap of 18 hours a week. Originally I wanted to join because I needed the money, but I feel like my workload seems ridiculous.<p>I was instructed not to negotiate since I was a student of this school and they will not pay me higher. I&#x27;m confused on where to go from now on, other students who will have to take on my work will be exploited too.<p>Am I actually being exploited, then what do I do?
======
_ah
No.

You are only being exploited if you: 1\. Are "worth more" in the industry (you
could get paid more for the same work) 2\. Are unable to take another higher
paid position for whatever reason.

Both of these items must be true.

If you have heard of others paying more, that doesn't count... the only way
you can reasonably claim to be "worth more" is if you have actually been
offered a position at a higher pay rate. Then you can either take that
position, or work for yourself, or turn it down because you like your current
team. A situation such as yours is only exploitive if the employer is
underpaying you AND blocking your ability to transfer.

If it's too much to get everything done in 18 hrs / wk, then it doesn't get
done. They can increase your hour cap or your deadline. These discussions are
sometimes hard, but they're not complicated.

What you fail to realize is that you are, right now, gaining the most valuable
thing you can: experience. Though most tech shops claim to be a meritocracy,
you'll discover very quickly that experience is very highly valued by hiring
managers... maybe even more than it should be. So you're making $15/hr, and
could be making $20 / $50 / whatever. Treat this as a learning experience to
sharpen your skills and seriously buff your resume.

You need to optimize for learning. NEED TO. This is the wrong time in your
career to optimize for paycheck.

~~~
throwawayaya
I think replying to this either way will make me look arrogant or dumb. I
think I am more worth in the industry, I've secured an internship that pays
triple. I thank you for the input for the other thing though - I've taken your
idea and talked to management about at least hiring more people seeing how
they won't budge on a raise. (but are willing to hire more people?)

~~~
joezydeco
_I 've secured an internship that pays triple_

Unless you're under some kind of contract, you have your answer. What is
holding you to this current job?

~~~
citruspi
> What is holding you to this current job?

I'm not sure if this is the case, but OP may not be aware that some employers
offer part-time remote internships, or the employer who OP interned for at
triple his current pay may not have offered them.

OP, if you read this and this is the case, I went through a similar
experience. My first internship was for a Silicon Valley company over the
summer, and then I went on to work as a System Administrator for a college
when I got back to school at ~33% of what I made over the summer. However, for
my next internship, I worked for a different company and when I went back to
school we agreed that I would work part-time remotely. I still made the same
per hour as when I was working 40 hour weeks, I just worked fewer hours. I had
a bunch of friends who did the same thing - interned for a company for a
semester and then returned to school and worked for them part-time for a lot
more than they would have made if they'd worked for the school.

------
atmosx
IMHO one of the following things is at play here:

1) They have low-quality standards, so they expect something that _barely_
works

2) They don't expect you to _actually_ deliver, only to drive the project from
point A to point B, but they didn't tell you just in case you could drive the
project to point C (that could be a little exploitative, but that doesn't
really matter).

3) They don't care about the result because it's part of a program that runs
for <reasons>.

I would bet for (3). Either way, If I were you, I'd just do my best within the
constraints they gave me, trying to fulfill the minimum requirements and then
move on without taking this too seriously. Take this as a learning experience,
at this point you shouldn't care about the money, under regular circumstances.
Take it as a learning experience.

~~~
jackgolding
Very good comment and this is something that employees pick up more as they
become more commercially savvy.

------
alain94040
If you are paid hourly, then you shouldn't worry about the workload. What does
the cap of 18 hours/week mean? Are you supposed to work beyond 18 hours, just
not being paid? Otherwise, just work 18 hours/week, and if the project doesn't
get done in 4 months, it's not your problem.

Just don't agree to both a deadline and an hours cap. That would definitely be
exploitation.

~~~
throwawayaya
You aren't allowed to work more than 18 hours, the university won't let me.
They just expect it to be done, else I'm fired and get a bad reputation at the
school and future hiring.

~~~
DrScump
By "fired", do you mean _expelled_?

~~~
throwawayaya
Fired as in just fired, though I'm not sure, since they are well connected to
the school's main operation.

------
noshbrinken
If you decide to continue with this job, take it as an opportunity to learn
two essential professional programming skills: estimating effort and managing
expectations.

"production ready app in iOS, Android, website, and server setup as well as
website/app design and logo creation and branding" in 4 months at 18 hours a
week is an unreasonable scope of work, at least for me. I would not be
employed under these terms unless my hourly rate was in the thousands or tens
of thousands, and even then I would be concerned about the impact of four
high-stress months on my health.

You are going to encounter these kinds of unreasonable requests throughout
your career. The ability to explain in layman's terms and plain English why
this isn't possible and to present an alternative is invaluable and it's part
of what you're being paid to do. It is always better to risk disappointing the
client in the beginning, by having this conversation, then it is to disappoint
them in the end, by failing to deliver.

~~~
throwawayaya
I think that's a good skill to know - thanks :)

------
a-saleh
On one hand, 15$/hr, amount of work required, 18hr/week cap, sounds like the
job I had while in college.

On the other hand, 18/hr week cap and arbitrary hard deadline sounds
borderline exploitative. But to me, it sounds much more like a mismanagement.

If I were in your shoes, I would first go to the person responsible for
continuation of my employment and talk about the possibility of you not
handling the work-load. It might be that this person doesn't even know what is
asked of you, but would be able to tell you things about the process of
evaluation of your work, possibility of hand-over, extending of your
employment, when would they terminate it e.t.c

Then I would get the person who represents the people whose problem you are
solving with your software, with the one who created the product specification
(i.e. you got that it has to be iOS, Android,e.t.c from some piece of paper,
hopefully with more specifics and a known author :-) and as well as person
that is responsible for the progress of your work into the same room. Might be
a single person. Might not :-)

Now I would try to negotiate reduction of scope (i.e. I would probably want to
drop the iOS and Android apps and focus on the web/backend, focus only on the
biggest pain points that you want to solve).

This is why it would be good to have some user representative in the room,
maybe you learn that EVERYBODY has iPhones, and nobody would use a web-browser
on their phone, or some other arbitrary thing, that would help you reduce
scope/prioritize features. I would try to leave in just the Minimum Viable ;)

Then I would setup probably weekly meetups with the person that the work will
be completed so that we would see if the deadline needs to be extended.

Your situation kind-a reminds me of a weird fan-fiction about the second Death
Star and its project manager [1]

[1] [https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11685932/1/Instruments-of-
Destr...](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11685932/1/Instruments-of-Destruction)

------
joshontheweb
Shoot. I only made $8.75/hr doing development work at my university. It was
excellent experience and once I hit the market I was much better prepared than
those who hadn't done any real world work yet. Look at it as a good learning
experience, enjoy your time, and look forward to the massive increase in pay
once you move on.

------
soneca
No. From my point of view, not at all. From my point of view you are actually
at a very priviliged position. A few other comments that you curiously did not
reply better explain why there is no exploitation here.

That said,I am not one of those people that think that privileged people
should not complain. At all. Every has the right to try to improve their life.
In your case, I believe you should practice negotiation. Try negotiate your
salary. If dont get a raise and dont get a better offer elsewhere, maybe you
are earning a fair salary. Try negotiate the deadline. Explain why is asking
too much to do all that in 4 months. Maybe you will learn that their
expectations of quality are much lower than yours. A logo and a website can be
made on one morning if there no expectations at all.

Or maybe you will end up your negotiation with a raise and more time.

~~~
throwawayaya
I think you are right, but I did not reply because HN blocks constant replies
to posts for new account. I do acknowledge very privileged to be in this
position, and I am actually fine with the pay for now. The reason why I asked
this question was because someone told me I was being exploited for my labour,
I soon realized that it seems like I was. I wanted to see if I could do
anything about it seeing how there will be a point where a student who
actually needs a job like this would become overworked by the weird
requirements of the build.

~~~
Veen
> someone told me I was being exploited for my labour

Some people believe the employer-employee relationship is intrinsically
exploitative, so that's not saying much.

I don't think you're being exploited although you are probably being
mismanaged. I'd just take the job for what it is. You gain experience, you
work your 18 hours a week until the deadline, and if you aren't done in that
time, it's not your problem.

------
cauterized
I wouldn't necessarily use the term "exploited" (I would save that for a
different sort of situation), but you've certainly been put in an untenable
position.

It sounds to me as if the problem here is not the pay grade but the
expectations. Did you know what those expectations would be when you agreed to
the project?

What you're expected to get done in the designated number of hours sounds to
me as if it would be unreasonable at virtually any pay rate. Assuming the app
you're building has a certain level of complexity, I wouldn't expect those
results in that time frame from anyone less than the most experienced
professionals. And it's obviously unreasonable to expect you, as a student, to
work at an equivalent velocity.

My guess would be that the people in charge of this project don't actually
understand the work involved in it. Either way, I would run, not walk away
from it.

------
chris11
> state school

That's what I noticed. I really don't expect state schools to undergrad
student workers much. So I wouldn't really worry about it too much. If you can
find another job that pays more elsewhere, take it. But I'm really not
surprised at all with your pay.

------
itg
$15/hr for "I'm building a service that should entail a production ready app
in iOS, Android, website, and server setup as well as website/app design and
logo creation and branding all by myself"

YES, this company is using you for cheap labor

~~~
throwawayaya
Can I ask how could I get about changing this situation? I go to the school
that is employing me, I feel like any complaint will just impede my graduation
or education. thank you :)

~~~
brianwawok
If you think you are worth more, find another job to pay more. Either use as
leverage or take the other job.

For what's it's worth, I think I made like $12 in college updating crappy php
college websites. It was fine, gave me some resume material. Gotta start
somewhere.

------
jason_slack
I was in this situation in college as well. I was writing code for minimum
wage as part of work-study program to help pay my tuition.

I looked at the larger picture. I was gaining experience. It wasn't costing me
gas as I was already at the college each day. I worked with great people that
I still communicate with to this day. I was offered a full-time job at the
college after I graduated.

------
ramtatatam
Change is good, if you are unhappy - simply go somewhere better.

------
Zooper
Yes. Don't comply with any exploitation ever. They're exercising unstated
leverage over you because you're a student at their university.

------
dmarlow
Much akin to medical students undertaking a residency, no?

~~~
throwawayaya
It isn't directly related to my graduation (I never needed to work to
gradaute) more like I took a job at the school, like a librarian, but instead
a developer.

~~~
hijinks
underpaid yes.. but you are getting experience which is more valuable then
another $10 an hour.

------
elastic_church
Given that you could make $6k a month interning at facebook doing way less
then yes you are being taken advantage of

Enjoy the project though that's alot of experience especially for your own
ideas

------
mattbgates
It happens. Gain experience. Move on. I worked for a tyrant for $12/hr fixing
bugs and adding new things to the program. Over a year and a half I did this.
It was Visual Basic 6.0 and this job I had about 6 years ago. I was severely
underpaid, especially for putting up with his crap, but with no money and
student loans @ $40k, I had to do what I had to do. No sense in just quitting
a job without having another lined up.

So what did I do? I always kept looking for a job during my time there, but in
my time there, I did what I had to do, acquired all the knowledge I needed,
added everything in detail on my resume -- for example, I made the program
more user-friendly and boosted our sales by over 200%. It definitely looks
good on my resume and I'm able to talk about it in interviews. I was pretty
much hired to make the program more user-friendly and that is what I did, and
it drew so many new customers. That was about the only benefit to me, I did
not actually see any raise for my efforts.

In fact, it was not until I found another job, making just $16/hr when he
offered me double my salary. I think I tried it for about a week before I
realized I was going to suffer immensely: "I'm paying you to do this job...
why.. how..." and all that kind of stuff. He also installed spy software on my
computer to make sure I was doing the job. That's the kind of boss he was, a
micromanager, complete with paranoia. Read more about that here:
[http://www.confessionsoftheprofessions.com/the-
opportunity/](http://www.confessionsoftheprofessions.com/the-opportunity/)

I think most of us... are never making the salary we actually want and most of
us probably won't unless we are working in Silicon Valley OR we run our own
business and charge our own prices. Companies are certainly after profit, but
rather than always try and ask for the salary you want: see what else the
company will offer you.

For example, I had gotten a job with another company that paid a pretty good
wage, far more than the $12/hr, and they also gave me a company phone which I
don't pay for, 3-4 weeks vacation + sick days, and I had only lived about 10
minutes from the job.

That first job, I may have disliked, but I knew it wasn't going to last
forever because I am a college graduate with skills that are in demand. I'm a
web developer and a programmer. Always learning new things. What company would
turn away a person with college experience AND programming skills? I've
expanded well beyond Visual Basic 6.0.

While working at your current company, build up your portfolio and your
resume. Update your LinkedIn profile and get RECOMMENDATIONS (
[http://www.confessionsoftheprofessions.com/useful-feature-
li...](http://www.confessionsoftheprofessions.com/useful-feature-linkedin-
recommendations/) ) Get some clients from freelance and have them write
reviews about you. Any kind of experience you can get: write it down and turn
it into something beautiful on your resume and if you have a portfolio, add it
there too so you can have proof. Don't hesitate to take screenshots of your
work.

That first job gave me all the tools and experience I needed. I even built a
website for the boss which I took a screenshot of as well as screenshots of
the areas of the program that I worked on and built the user interface. I left
my name in the meta data as a creator of the website and it is still there
over 6 years later! Definitely ensures no company questions that I actually
built the website. It also gave me real world experience for understanding how
to deal with an arrogant micromanaging tyrant boss.

My advice is this: Always aim for a price range of the salary you want to be
making, within a $5000 range or so, ask for it, and negotiate a bit. Companies
are after their own best interests, and if they can get you cheap, they will.
They will take advantage of your services. If you want to ask for a raise
after a year, which you probably should because that is normal, than at least
have something to go on: build a case for reasons why they should give you a
raise.

But do take into account what the company offers you besides money. You could
also do what I do.. how I make the extra money I want to be making, although
I'm still always working on it and not fully there yet: side projects,
freelancing, etc. There are certainly ways to make money without asking your
company for it. Maybe they have a set budget that they want to pay everyone.
Just remember: Those making the highest salaries are usually looked at first
when it comes to layoffs.

~~~
bjourne
> It happens. Gain experience. Move on. I worked for a tyrant for $12/hr
> fixing bugs and adding new things to the program. Over a year and a half I
> did this. It was Visual Basic 6.0 and this job I had about 6 years ago.

That's not an argument. There is no reason for the op to accept being treated
badly because you were. I was severely underpaid at my first job too, but I
don't think it is right that others should be underpaid just because I was.

~~~
brianwawok
What makes you think someone with no real experience and half a degree is
underpaid at $15? He may be overpaid.

~~~
bjourne
Assume the value of Mr Throwaway's work to the institution is $X. We also know
that Throwaway's total take home is $15/hour * 18 hours/week * 4*4.5 (nr of
weeks) = $4860.

I claim that underpayment occurs when the ratio of pay to value of work
produces is about one to five. I would estimate, given the description of
Throwaway's assignment, that the value of the work is about $50k. Therefore,
Throwaway's ratio of pay to value of work being one to ten means he is severly
underpaid. We can argue about exact ratios and stuff, but fact is, $4.8k is
shitty pay for the job he is asked to do.

~~~
brianwawok
1) Colleges do not hire students to do work at "market rate". That is never
how it has worked. You get slightly above minimum wage to do some work. If you
want market rate, go find a job off campus! No law against that (well perhaps
for some VISA holders)

2) The better comparison, would be how much would this work cost to do form a
body shop in India? I bet a lot closer to 5k then 50k. And honestly if he is
anything like most college students I know, the India work may actually be
better.

~~~
bjourne
1) I didn't speak of any market rates. I spoke of the fraction of his take
home pay in comparision to the value of his work. That fraction is
exploitative.

2) Indian workers are likely _also_ underpaid. I find that comparison
irrelevant.

------
sauronlord
No.

You deserve exactly what you have right now. Nothing more, nothing less.

Read Napolean Hill's "The Laws of Success". A basic rule to use to succeed at
life is:

\- always render more service, and at a higher quality than that which you are
paid for

Go out and do amazing things, constantly increasing your value and trading up

