
The case for electric scooters - orrhirschauge
https://www.calcalistech.com/ctech/articles/0,7340,L-3737880,00.html
======
lucidguppy
There really needs to be a 2nd grid of roads to handle scooters, bikes, and
pedestrians. Bikes and scooters should be allies not competitors.

It's the car that is the competitor - you have to maintain roads much more,
you have to build large parking garages, global warming is an issue, you push
people away from where they work, you have loss of exercise and rising
obesity.

Sure it might not work in wintertime - but biking/scooting can surely put a
dent in IC engine transportation for two or three seasons.

~~~
skrause
> _There really needs to be a 2nd grid of roads to handle scooters, bikes, and
> pedestrians. Bikes and scooters should be allies not competitors._

Pedestrians already have their 2nd grid of roads, it's called the sidewalk.
Problem is that bikes also don't fit there, so basically they need a 3rd set
of roads.

~~~
vinceguidry
Don't forget about buses, they need their own road section too!

~~~
icebraining
Won't those be empty 99% of the time? Sounds wasteful.

~~~
vinceguidry
You may have missed the recent article that made the front page about buses.
But the idea is, if you put them in dedicated center lanes, provide civilian
walk paths over the street, and give them priority over other vehicle traffic,
then people treat them more like subways. Several cities in Latin America do
this, the one I'm familiar with and used was TransMilenio in Bogota.

Of course, at this point, you might as well use streetcars. But I think buses
are still cheaper at that point.

~~~
icebraining
I did miss the article! Do you happen to have a link? Search for "buses" finds
two articles from the past month, but I don't see the reference to that idea.

EDIT: Nevermind, this is it:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17034100](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17034100)

------
davidhyde
I have an electric scooter and it has significantly changed my life in London.
True, it is a legal grey area in the UK and tarnished by those dangerous
hoverboards of yesteryear but I find that as long as I keep to quiet roads and
cycle lanes I can happily scoot past police with no problems. I've been riding
mine for little under a year and clocked up 1100 miles already. Here are some
points the article missed:

\- They don't work so well in winter because batteries don't work well in cold
weather - so less range \- They don't stop as fast as bikes but you can always
hop off to avoid a collision. \- You can squeeze through much tighter gaps
than a bike. \- Thankfully I have never hit anyone but I imagine that
colliding with someone would be the same as running into them. This is very
different to spearing them mid torso with a bicycle. A typical electric
scooter weighs a little over 10kg and, like the article says, has a low center
of gravity so it will unlikely be involved in the accident at all. A person's
weight is a much larger factor. \- I thought it was dorky to ride one but
that's not the case at all. \- You are higher up than on a bike (you sit on a
bike but stand on a scooter) so you are more visible to cars in my opinion. \-
You can transport grocery shopping with ease

~~~
walshemj
Don't the tiny wheels make this very unsteady if it was me id bite the bullet
and buy a Brompton - even better if your employer is in the tax free scheame.

Also the impact on the head of falling off will be greater as you have further
to fall from a standing position.

~~~
davidhyde
No, my scooter has full suspension. I can hit a one inch high obstruction
without a problem. Makes a bang but I don't come off.

I have fallen off twice in wet weather. Once whilst going round a corner and
another on wet autumn leaves. You instinctively stick your left or right foot
out, trip, and put your hands out to break your fall. You don't go over the
handle bars or anything. You land on your hips or knees then hands, in that
order. The scooter slides away. So now I wear gloves because I grazed my hands
the first time. You also feel like an idiot for falling off a 'toy'

I bought an after market gum wheel to replace the too-hard stock back wheel
and the grip is a lot better in wet weather now.

~~~
walshemj
Two accidents in under a year! I have only had 2 accidents in my life on a
bike.

~~~
davidhyde
I would say that you're more likely to have an accident on a scooter than a
bike but it's less likely to be more serious.

Kind of like the difference between being tripped while running and someone
pushing you off a bike. Your body has a better chance at protecting itself in
the former case.

~~~
walshemj
Depends on circumstance in my case:

1 Came of descending a hill hit black ice (in traffic) - no problems

2 Tripped on paving stone in London - gave my self concussion and had to take
the day off.

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jypepin
I wonder if it's selection bias, but I feel like I'm seeing way more
conversation today about electric scooters than I've ever heard about similar
on-demand bike platforms that started a few years ago.

I never realised it, but the argument of bikes vs scooters (bulky, hard to
transport, etc) is a real one and makes a lot of sense on why using an
electric scooter (at least for shorter distances) would be more attractive
than a bike.

~~~
masklinn
> I never realised it, but the argument of bikes vs scooters (bulky, hard to
> transport, etc) is a real one and makes a lot of sense on why using an
> electric scooter (at least for shorter distances) would be more attractive
> than a bike.

Indeed, I got myself one and that was very much the discriminant, it's not
faster than a bike and has less range (top speed of ~20km/h and ~20km range),
it's also somewhat uncomfortable (small solid rubber wheels) _however_ it's
much simpler to fold/unfold, less cumbersome (in terms of volume &
transportability) & weight-competitive (~13kg) with folding bikes let alone
electric foldings.

I can go to work with it and come back on public transport without bothering
anyone, it takes a few seconds to fold it and go up/down stairs, …

Even a light ebike like the QiCYCLE (which isn't officially available where I
live anyway) is much more cumbersome to carry around — especially with it in
one hand and a bag in the other or the like —, heavier, and requires half a
dozen movements to fold or unfold, mostly for reasons intrinsics to bikes" you
need a proper crankset with enough clearance to pedal, a chain or other
transmission to the wheel, a high-enough seatpost to actually pedal, wheels
big enough for all that to make sense, … none of which are necessary on PMDs.

It doesn't have the "cycling" fallback if out of juice, but by and large the
distances I'm using it on make that a non-issue. I feel lazy as hell riding
it, but laziness is not the primary reason I got it instead of a bike/ebike
(though I'll admit it was probably part of the overall).

~~~
wmertens
Regarding the laziness, i kick while scooting, making it go faster which is
very dynamic and lots of fun, although it doesn't seem to impact the range.

------
Angostura
I cycle to work and drive and think electric scooters and their ilk are great
- as long as they are not ridden on the pavement endangering pedestrians, and
as long as they are well lit at night.

However I disagree with this part of the article:

> If you're in the business of making cars, PMDs should top your list of
> existential worries. ... PMDs replace cars at a fraction of the cost.

For most people (in my opinion) A PMD will supplement the car, not replace it.
I cycle a _lot_. I don;t use my bike for moderate size shopping trips, or when
I'm ferrying the kids around, or going on longer family trips.

~~~
GLjEI4YbnGD27LB
I use my bike for all my shopping by using bags on the side of the rack and a
big backpack, works quite well.

~~~
Angostura
I too do small shops using panniers. Not for a family of four though.

------
astannard
I love the idea of eScooters but in the UK they are illegal to use on the road
or pavements. Unless the law changes they won't get adopted over here.

~~~
nine_k
What is the rationale for the ban?

~~~
TomMarius
None, it's not a deliberate ban, it's simply not listed as allowed because no
one considered it when the law was created and no one has bothered to (or was
able to) change it.

~~~
phicoh
An alternative possibility is that they actually do fit an existing category
(some kind of moped) but fail to meet the safety standards of that category.

------
naskwo
I just returned from Singapore. The central business district is full of these
scooters. As a Dutchman, personally, I don't see why people don't bike. Cardio
& transport in one. (This also why I don't understand the appeal of the
Segway)

The issue is that these scooters should not be on pedestrian walkways /
sidewalks (and they are in Singapore), because there is too much difference in
speed.

Singapore recently came with strict rules about usage, so perhaps there is a
middle ground: [https://www.mobilityscooters.sg/blogs/blog/are-mobility-
scoo...](https://www.mobilityscooters.sg/blogs/blog/are-mobility-scooters-
above-20-kg-allowed-by-lta)

I'll stick to my bicycle for now, though. In Holland, I like the trend of
"Bike roads"
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_boulevard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_boulevard))
as the deeper issue, certainly in London, has nothing to do with electric
scooters, but with a reduction in automobile traffic, and giving back space to
bicycles (and electric scooters, why not).

~~~
noselasd
biking in the heat of holland is fine, unlike in places like singapore

~~~
devnonymous
Wanted to say this, ppl get sweaty with all the humidity and effort biking in
Singapore.

Also, during my time in Singapore about 3 years ago, I found the scooters were
used as the 'last mile' option by ppl using public transport, which I thought
more practical than doing the same with one's bike.

Scooters were just taking off in Singapore when I left and I remember reading
that the SG government were seriously considering dedicated lanes for scooters
then.

------
skookumchuck
> Electric scooters, or more generically Personal Mobility Devices (PMDs)

Geez, they're scooters.

~~~
germinalphrase
I'm sure PMD covers many different kind of devices (scooters + segways, for
example)

~~~
skookumchuck
Maybe I should call my toothbrush a Personal Hygiene Device.

~~~
zimpenfish
Well, there is the "Personal Massager" precedent.

------
visarga
I just bought one this week for my daily commute. Getting on it is a highlight
of the day. It's still working on its first charge.

------
sxates
I rode a Bird scooter for the first time last week in SF from the Ferry
Building to my office on Montgomery. Setup in the app was easy, and I got the
hang of the scooter in just a couple blocks. It made me want to go buy one for
myself - I think the model Bird uses costs about $500.

My biggest gripe with using the Bird scooters is that there aren't enough of
them. I had to walk a couple blocks to get the one I rode, and at 5pm going
back the other way there were none available near me - or the ones near me
would be taken by the time I got to them. Just owning one solves that gripe,
and $500 seems like a bargain when compared to the time spent walking, or the
cost of parking, or the cost of taking Ubers around.

So I for one welcome the electric scooter trend.

~~~
soperj
Man, walking a couple blocks is the worst...

~~~
sxates
When walking a few blocks to find a scooter doubles the travel time of just
having it at the start, it reduces the utility of the scooter.

------
avelis
I ride an Urb-E to and from work 1.1 miles each way. It is an awesome last
mile solution. It has supplanted my car, a boosted board, and a bike I used to
have. Absolutely amazing vehicle. It will quicken the multi-modal nature of
roads sooner than we think.

~~~
throwaway413
I have an Inboard (do not recommend for several reasons) and have been
considering the Urb-E for a while, but also looking at the Lithim Cycle Super
73 bike. What do you like most and least about your Urb-E? I have gone to
their store in Pasadena and test driven one - super fun. I’m still considering
the bike for sheer practicality purposes, and also I feel like the Urb-E has a
bit of this old-person walker look to it that I can’t shake off.

~~~
masklinn
I've had a sport gt for a few months.

Pros: it's fairly light, easy to carry around, with a small footprint (when
folded & standing) and very quick to fold, makes it convenient for multi-modal
involving public transport, or to use it one way and public transports the
other for some reason

Cons: on wet surface sends mud everywhere it should not — apparently they've
just released fenders which I would strongly recommend if you're in a place
where it ever rains; it's a bit bumpy especially on less-than-perfect surfaces
(solid wheels and only steatpost suspension)

My biggest issue is more of a disappointment: I was really interested in using
it for grocery shopping (either going for groceries or getting them on my way
back) but:

* the cargo basket doesn't have handles (it does have handle mounts but not the handles going in there) making it a pain to carry detached from but alongside the urbe

* which is not helped by the urb-e being way less convenient to carry by the handle when the basked is affixed (as it juts out from the middle and makes for way less walking legroom)

* the basket's mount/release is absolute crap especially when loaded, the lock must be drawn back _into_ the basket (and into the groceries usually those heavier & less flexible as it's towards the post) then lifted up and back from the bolt-holes and the support itself is annoying to remove, this makes urbe+basket way less convenient to fold/unfold/carry than the urbe alone, even more so as the support is affixed over the back handle if mounted in the back which…

* is a requirement for "shopping cart" mode on the sport, if loaded with more than a few hundred grams the "standing" urb-e is not stable when using a front-mounted basket

* the basket is very rigid, coupled with the sport gt's solid wheels groceries keep bumping and jumping around, damaging the heavier or more fragile items

* it's an open wire basket, making it very much _non_ water resistant (though see first cons my urbe isn't great at that anyway, at least unless and until I get the new fenders)

* really inadapted to carrying french bread, there's no good way to carry a baguette or flute without it being damaged

Some sort of closable bag (canvas on or suspended under a rigid frame) would
have been much better, or a bike-ish post compatible with standard panniers.
That would have limited the bumping and jumping, provided some protection
against elements and avoided the possibility of items jumping out the bag
entirely (either due to bumps or light stuff picked by wind gusts).

I like my machine overall, but that cargo basket is just bad.

------
Zigurd
Autonomous vehicles will vastly reduce fear for cyclists, scooter riders, and
pedestrians. Scooters can benefit from this technology, too, to keep
pedestrians and scooter riders safer.

Some cities are already gas scooter-mobile, like Taipei. This even though
Taipei is very rainy part of the year. Every office has pegs to hang the wet
ponchos of scooter riders. Electrifying scooters will markedly improve the air
because gas scooters have no smog controls.

Scooters are also right-sized for electrification. Small and light enough that
they get decent range at under $2000. Some much cheaper. Scooters can also
cover a range of sizes and capacities.

But cars need to become safer to riders and pedestrians for widespread
adoption.

------
ovrdrv3
I had a great time in San Diego riding these and I am thinking about grabbing
the $500 electric scooter on Amazon instead of the $1200 boosted board.

Interestingly, I got kinda pulled over when I was riding one late at night in
San Diego. The police officer said I needed a helmet and to get off of it. I
think he may have just been having a bad afternoon because in the daytime
there were hundreds of people riding around without a helmet on. I am not
saying that I think it's a dumb idea to wear a helmet, I always do when biking
around my city's streets. Next time I'm in San Diego I'm bringing a helmet
with me, and then, I'll be unstoppable.

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djrogers
Ahh, the electric scooter. These do look like a lot of fun, but as someone
who's ridden several of the non-electric variety I'd have to say I prefer the
stability of a skateboard over one of these 2 wheelers.

Why can't I buy a nice electric skateboard with a brake and a handheld
controller for a price similar to what these scooters are going for? Seems
like electric skateboards are more of a niche/enthusiast market, and they're
being priced accordingly.

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torgoguys
Everything thing old is new again. Does anyone else remember the kids show
Newton's Apple? One of the segments was called Newton's Lemons featuring
products that were duds. I remember seeing an electric scooter being shown in
that segment, using old black and white film of the product in action.

I thought it was great at the time and still think electric scooters are a
great idea.

------
Qwertie
Personally I'd prefer ebikes over electric scooters, You can easily get around
on an ebike sweat free. But they seem like a great means of transport if a
bike isn't practical for you.

~~~
peatmoss
As someone with a transportation planning background, I’m delighted for
anything that isn’t a single occupant vehicle. Not that those don’t have a
place, it’s just that they shouldn’t be the meat and potatoes of
transportation.

Electric bikes are great. Scooters are great. Electric unicycles are great.
Electric longboards are great. Traditional versions of the above are great.

Buy what works for you and see the world :-)

------
stronglikedan
I find it odd that an article attempting to make a case for scooters wouldn't
mention safety equipment such as helmets. It does mention safety issues, but
just glosses right over them.

------
dharma1
what's a good scooter with really good suspension or fat wheels? I want to
like them, just can't handle the constant shaking on uneven roads

------
agumonkey
Who uses gyrowheels / self balancing unicycles ?

~~~
Eric_WVGG
I see two or three every day in NYC.

I feel like they could be great hybrid devices; bicycles and scooters, even
ridden slowly, cause too much disruption on sidewalks. A gyro wheel at walking
speeds ought to be just fine. (I was just trying to figure out a way to
traverse five miles from a light rail stop to my sister out in the suburbs;
the streets are often unsafe for cycles, basically no room for anything except
for a sidewalk.)

~~~
imgabe
If you're limited to going at walking speed, why not just walk?

~~~
masklinn
Bad feet (flat or heel spurs) making anything more than short walks
problematic, especially in "city" attire/shoes?

------
wink
Not sure I've ever seen on of those in my city, this is weird. They seem to be
rarer than electric skateboards.

------
baybal2
Switching their population to electric scooters, and creating a gigantic
electric scooter industry along the way, was one of China's biggest innovation
successes.

Now, one in three Chinese cities outright ban any form of two wheeled
transportation... because commie lardasses want to "Live Like in America ®"

According to them, everybody are to be riding chauffeured Mercedes S600 limos
to demonstrate the wealth and affluence of Chinese nation so, god forbids, no
passing by foreigner will ever come to an idea that locals don't have money to
buy a car.

Sounds completely bizarre, but it is indeed what laws of many Chinese
municipalities actually say.

* Note: what I mean under scooters are light electric mopeds capable keeping up with cars.

~~~
chvid
Which cities are those? Last time I was in China, electric scooters were
everywhere we went.

That they are electric and not running on gasoline has a really positive
impact. Just compare to places like Thailand and Vietnam where the cities have
big problems with safety, congestion and polution due to all the 125cc
scooters there.

~~~
baybal2
Shenzhen, Guangzhou urban core.

Shanghai is big on electric scooters at the moment, but declares jihad on
anything without bicycle pedals and what can ride faster than 32km/h.
Motorcycle licenses are technically/hypothetically available, they cost the
same as car plates on the paper, but in reality they cost much more as they go
to rich kids who drive H2Rs on the streets.

~~~
Zircom
The scooters you're referring too are more similar to mopeds than what this
article is about. The ones in the article are basically electric razor
scooters and top out at like 15mph.

------
baybal2
China makes some of the best electric scooters out there, but they are
forbidden from being driven in most of China...

One nice brand => [https://www.niu.com](https://www.niu.com)

Edit: I meant proper scooters, not these folding and portable types

~~~
freddie_mercury
The thing you linked to isn't what the article is talking about. Why did you
post it? I'm confused.

