
PSA: Lenovo ships machines with parts that can't be freely updated or replaced - jimktrains2
I have an E545 and my wireless networking card is extremely flaky (30sec of connectivity, 2 minutes of connecting at the worst; 30min connected, hours of the prior at the best).  I&#x27;ve tried updating drivers, reseating it, &amp;c and nothing works.  I got a replacement card from an old Dell Latitude, put it in and got: &quot;1802 - Unauthorized network card&quot;<p>http:&#x2F;&#x2F;support.lenovo.com&#x2F;us&#x2F;en&#x2F;documents&#x2F;ht001309<p>Their FCC excuse is utterly laughable because other manufactures don&#x27;t require their computers to have white listed parts.<p>I wish I knew how low the Thinkpad brand has sunk under Lenovo before buying this machine. So, just a PSA to others out there. Lenovo is no friend of yours.
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brudgers
The whitelist exists because Thinkpads have various certifications for
companies and organizations that require them...e.g. a military use where the
entire system needs to be certified for obvious (in the sense that security
may dictate that a machine cannot have arbitrary hardware installed) reasons.
It's the tradeoff one makes for a laptop that is of sufficient quality that it
can be certified.

See:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad#Use_in_space](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad#Use_in_space)

Over time, alternative bios's with different whitelists often become available
for Thinkpads. Not sure if this will live through UEFI.

Good luck.

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jimktrains2
And the stock hardware is certified, why must it prevent me from working on my
own machine.

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brudgers
Because some certifications require limiting the range of possible changes. An
obvious example would be a user swappable encryption chip. Allowing that would
defeat the purpose if certifying the system for encryption in environments
requiring certification for encryption. So the encryption gets baked in to the
hardware. The hardware whitelist is just an extension of that feature set.
Sure, not everyone needs that feature set. For most of them, though, the
feature set is neutral at worst. People for whom the feature set creates a
problem are a corner case. Those for whom it is a serious problem have
purchased the wrong product or may need to tether an external device.

~~~
jimktrains2
It should be the device owner, not the device manufacture who decides what can
and cannot be put into the system. If the owner, my employee in your example,
decides to lock down the device, that is their right. For the manufacture to
tell me as the owner that I cannot use an otherwise compatible part is plainly
and simply wrong.

~~~
brudgers
If a person who doesn't like liver and onions orders liver and onions off the
menu, their complaints to the waiter that "I don't like the taste of this
liver and onions" is not justified and sending it back to the kitchen for a
different plate of liver and onions isn't going to please the diner's pallet.
"Should" has nothing to do with it. Don't buy a ThinkPad if it doesn't meet
your needs. Instead, buy something that does.

~~~
jimktrains2
> Don't buy a ThinkPad if it doesn't meet your needs. Instead, buy something
> that does.

I won't! However, this is not an advertised issue. Why would I assume I can't
upgrade my own hardware?

~~~
brudgers
It's not an issue with ThinkPads. It is a feature.

~~~
techdragon
An unadvertised feature. Extending the metaphor, they ordered a burger that
made no mention of liver and onions and got a burger that had liver and
onions. We as consumers have every right to complain, such certified hardware
should be optional and we can buy models without. Its software, this shouldn't
be an issue we have to face.

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sp4rki
Well you're in for a world of pain my brother. Here's a list of other brands
that do this: HP, Toshiba, Dell, et al. The excuse they give, albeit stupid
and useless IMO, is a valid one. This used to be easy to maneuver around by
just flashing your BIOS, but with UEFI and encrypted BIOS' this has become an
uphill battle.

That being said, Lenovo still makes great machines (their keyboards destroy
everything from the Dell XPS to Macbook Pro and everything in between) on
which you can service their internals by yourself - just not the WiFi cards
which require whitelist authentication.

It's not like you can't change the card though... just google what cards you
CAN swap to and buy one on eBay.

~~~
jimktrains2
I shouldn't have to buy special hardware when I have perfectly fine hardware
at my house. Vendor lock in is dangerous and nonsensical.

How is their excuse valid? A certified stock machine ceases to be certified
when unverified hardware is used. However all WiFi cards must pass FCC
certification separately, that is not Lenovo's responsibility.

~~~
SamReidHughes
What is the danger and how is it irresponsible?

~~~
jimktrains2
The danger is this exact situation, I am now no longer free to work on my
machine. I must bend to their will and buy replacement hardware that they
sanction, which may or may not or may in the future be hard to source and/or
high in price. The danger is a working piece of hardware could be rendered non
functional for want of a simple and otherwise easily sourced replacement if a
company goes put of business.

I said nonsensical not irresponsible. I say nonsensical because the situation
I described in my last paragraph shouldn't be my worry as the owner of
hardware that otherwise would be compatible.

~~~
SamReidHughes
Oh I guess I misread. It's still not dangerous at all. You aren't going to die
or suffer injury from the wifi card or lack thereof, even if Lenovo goes out
of business. You're choosing words that falsely amplify your point.

~~~
jimktrains2
Something does not have to cause mortal harm to be dangerous. Denying free
speech is a dangerous thing to do, but it poses no mortal harm.

Not owning what I buy is a disturbing trend that I believe is dangerous to our
society.

~~~
SamReidHughes
You have not lost your ability to replace your wifi card. The difference here
is only monetary and the entire cost to you would be negated if the initial
price was $100 cheaper. A year or two after your purchase, the price of
laptops will have fallen enough that the cost of a laptop + an extra official
wifi card is less than the cost of a laptop today. So I find your theory of
harm quite dubious.

~~~
jimktrains2
Yes, I have lost the ability to freely change the card.

~~~
SamReidHughes
You didn't lose it, you never had it. Lenovo exercised _their_ freedom to make
a laptop where you can't change the card.

~~~
jimktrains2
So even if I'm born a slave, I haven't lost my freedom. Stop being ridiculous.

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joshuapants
> I wish I knew how low the Thinkpad brand has sunk under Lenovo before buying
> this machine.

The BIOS whitelist goes back at least to the T61, if not further.

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Vendan
Heh, I had a dell from years ago with the same thing, and I had a CD with the
hack on it. Every once in a while, if I let the battery get too dead(Like the
os shut itself off then I left it like that for 2 days), I'd have to dig that
cd out and "fix" the bios. Really frustrating, but this has been going on
since laptops first had those wifi card thingys.

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philipov
Funny that you mention Lenovo, because they also come with built-in adware:
[http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/researcher-
discover...](http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/researcher-discovers-
superfish-spyware-installed-on-lenovo-pcs/)

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NeutronBoy
Many manufactures, including Dell, have been doing this for a while.

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tadfisher
IBM also did this. My X31 can attest to that.

