

For all of you small business owners, you can relate to this  - edw519
http://www.fivemilliondots.com/archive/2008/12/27/for-all-of-you-small-business-owners-you-can-relate.aspx

======
mrkurt
That guy sounds like a passive aggressive, condescending dick. He may have
some nuggets buried in there, but they're difficult to find when he drops
phrases like "while you get here at 9, and mentally check in at about noon".

I worked in an environment where the business owners subtly questioned the
worth of all of their employees once and I'll never do it again. I hope that
I'll treat people differently if I'm ever in a similar position.

~~~
brentb
If this guy actually sent that note to his employees (and I don't doubt that
he did) he is absolutely a passive aggressive, condescending dick... couldn't
have put it better myself. He's also a whiner and an idiot who obviously
doesn't trouble himself with facts or history.

First of all, Dick (which is what I'll call the author, since I don't know his
name) writes: _If you lose your job, it won't be at the hands of the economy;
it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this
country, steamrolled the constitution, and will have changed its landscape
forever._

Within the context of the article, Dick isn't referring to any actual
steamrolling of the constitution that has taken place at the hands of the Bush
administration (as long as there are terrorists out there... and there are
_always_ terrorists out there... it's apparently un-American to defend the
Constitution, civil liberties, etc.). No, in the article, Dick is referring to
changes in the tax code that the Obama administration has proposed (though
they may not act on them for a year or two).

The funny thing is that Dick appears to believe that these tax hikes will be
unprecedented. He believes they will _streamroll the constitution and change
its landscape forever_. In fact, all Obama plans to do is return the top two
tax rates to what they were in 2000 (and throughout most of the 90's). Taxes
will still be lower than they were in 2000 because he plans to leave the other
brackets (which are now at lower rates than they were in 2000) untouched. Even
the wealthiest 1% of households (with an average income of $1.6 million per
year) will pay less than they paid in '93-'00. So the idea that Obama's tax
plan will _streamroll the constitution and change its landscape forever_ is
hogwash. His proposed taxes are lower than they were just 8 years ago and in
any case, there is absolutely nothing unconstitutional about taxes. I've read
the constitution; obviously this guy hasn't.

Even stronger evidence of the ridiculousness of this claim can be found if we
look at history. Let's look at the top marginal Federal tax rates seen in
recent history:

50% (1982-86) 70% (1965-85) 77% (1964) 91-92% (1946-63) 94% (1944-45)

Under Obama's plan, the highest marginal tax rate starts at an income of
$357,700 (in 2008 dollars) and will only be 39.6%. And it's important to note
that this is the marginal rate, not the average rate. Someone making $400,000
won't be paying 39.6% of her income to Uncle Sam, she'll be paying 31.6%,
making the absurd assumption that she has no deductions. In reality, she'll
almost certainly be paying less.

Finally, I'd just like to point out that two people with perhaps the highest
tax burdens in the United States (Bill Gates and Warren Buffet) both support
Obama and his tax hikes. In fact, Buffet has said it's ridiculous how little
tax he is expected to pay. I tend to agree, especially considering our budget
deficit (not to mention our national debt). I for one would be happy to pay
higher taxes... if I'm doing well, a large part of that success is owed to the
country that provided me with my education and the infrastructure and
opportunities to make a success of myself. I'd like to see that education and
infrastructure get even better. I'd like to see poor kids get preventative
health care. It may not be a popular sentiment, but I agree with Biden: paying
taxes is patriotic.

~~~
jbjohns
What's so great about being patriotic? I'm American by birth, so I guess my
views are pretty uncommon but I just don't personally see the point in being
proud of something that happened by complete chance, and I _certainly_ don't
feel like I owe the place I was randomly born something.

About taxes; I don't mind paying taxes _if I see some benifit for it_. In e.g.
Sweden you pay 40-50%, but for this you have free healthcare and free
education (plus lodging and food!) for as far as your willing/capable of
going.

The US, on the other hand has taxes higher then I would pay in e.g.
Switzerland, Lichtenstein, etc. while having a _much_ worse health care
system, a _much_ worse public school system, etc., etc.

(NOTE: These comments don't have anything to do with Obama/McCain, just
patriotism and taxes)

~~~
fallentimes
In my humble opinion...nothing really. While it certainly has it's benefits,
it also leads to xenophobia and sometimes borderline racism (ask the average
American what they think of outsourcing).

 _Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other
countries because you were born in it._ -George Bernard Shaw

------
sachinag
Fine, I hope all the people who feel this way leave. Go. Get the fuck out.

I believe in American exceptionalism. I believe that there's something about
the immigrant experience that allows people to pull themselves up and live
their dreams with lots of hard work. Yes, it takes luck - but so does
everything else worth having, including love and health. You can become rich
and fabulous and no one will fault you for your accent or your class.

So take my taxes - I'm happy to have a profit enough to pay them. I'm safe in
my country's borders, I have 500 channels of TV available to me, I can eat
meat every day for every meal if I wanted to, and I get to watch my two
favorite teams play baseball day and night during the season.

My father chose to move here for me, before I was even born. Not that India is
some kind of hellhole - far from it - but, today, on what would have been his
60th birthday were he alive, I know what gift he gave me.

~~~
rw
If you were born elsewhere, and could never get to America, would you be fine
with American exceptionalism?

~~~
anamax
> If you were born elsewhere, and could never get to America, would you be
> fine with American exceptionalism?

Sure. Why would I care what Americans think about themselves? Why would I care
what Americans think about me?

And, on a more objective note, the argument for American exceptionalism isn't
that America does so well, but that other countries do so badly.

After all, let's compare the stereotypical American with the stereotypical
European and then look at the aggregate results. Some might argue that the
stereotypes are wrong. Others give credit to the flying spaghetti monster.
Maybe the Illuminati are to blame. And so on.

~~~
rw
Could you precisely define what you mean by "American exceptionalism"? I'm not
getting what you're saying.

~~~
anamax
> Could you precisely define what you mean by "American exceptionalism"?

I'm okay with "American exceptionalis refers to the belief that the United
States differs qualitatively from other developed nations, because of its
national credo, historical evolution, distinctive political and religious
institutions, ethnic origins and composition, or national ideals." from
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism>

You seem to think that non-Americans should be bothered by American
exceptionalism. Why?

~~~
rw
> the belief that the United States differs qualitatively from other developed
> nations,

Is that belief that the United States is _better_ , or just different?

~~~
anamax
> Is that belief that the United States is better, or just different?

Let's go with the one that bothers you. Why do you care?

~~~
rw
The one that bothers me is "better". The reason it bothers me is because that
type of American exceptionalism is _very_ close to nationalism, which, in
turn, works to build mental walls of ethnocentrism and classism.

~~~
anamax
While we often hear how fascism is descending on the US, I'll note that it
lands in Europe.

Or, if you intend "ethnocentrism and classism" in a less malign form, to the
extent that it's bad, it will work to the US' disadvantage. Are you opposed
because you want the US to succeed?

------
patio11
Chain letter politics emails aside, if your business looks like this, you're
probably doing it wrong. I don't understand why people think being married to
a business is healthy or necessary. (It might be in some businesses. If you're
the sole employee keeping a hospital's generators running, yep, you just
bought yourself a very stressful lifestyle. Don't be the sole employee keeping
a hospital's generators running.)

I love my customers. They are very important to me. If there is a bonnie lass
who has booked my evening, then their emails can wait a few hours. I'm an
engineer -- I'm perfectly capable of creating automated systems which
generally function whether I am physically present Right This Minute or not.

If they tend to not do that, you can either code better (not sarcastic --
every time I lose money or time on date night as a result of a bug, my
appreciation for proper testing increases) or pay somebody to worry about it
for you.

------
humanzee
This is pretty clearly a chain-email written months ago by a McCain supporter,
breathlessly warning of the dangers of electing an Obama administration.

The "...this is the type of change you can keep" is a dead giveaway.

~~~
fallentimes
With the hyprocrisy being that both parties are indisputably big government.

------
noonespecial
That's a little over the top. Almost Rand-ian at the end there. I think small
business owners should, however, start to cultivate a difference in perception
between small business and "big" business.

There is a substantial difference between the startup founder who employs 15
and is the hardest working guy in the bunch and the executives of something
like GM or AIG who are still not quite sure why its wrong to ask for a bailout
while flying around in multiple corporate jets and taking fancy executive
retreats.

Its going to be very important in the next couple of years to be sure that the
needed reforms that will reign in the recklessness of the latter does not
adversely affect the former.

------
jbrun
That is a ridiculous letter and should not be on HN. Fist, it disrespects
others, which is bad for business. But more importantly, he fails to
aknowledge the roads he takes to work, the water he drinks, the electricity,
the schools he went to.... you get the idea.

I don't think government is the most efficient thing in the world, but I do
think they have an important role in business development, if not the most
important.

After living in developing countries (China, Turkey, Ethiopia), you come to
appreciate the little things that our taxes pay for - firemen, policemen,
roads, schools, hospitals. I am a small business owner and do not enjoy
parting with money to an arguably inefficient government either, but taking it
out on employees like that is childish at best.

~~~
fallentimes
Maybe, but it's sparked some pretty good conversations. I've always found the
discussions on HN to be better than the articles/news anyway :).

------
xal
I find these anti-tax sentiments nuts. My recent history is essentially the
same he describes. I currently employ 12 people.

My attitude is the polar opposite however. I worked so hard over the last
couple years so that I could create the best environment on earth for me and
my friends/employees. We have fun at work and because of that our products are
excellent. There is no debt or guild about them having a good time while I
wasn't, in fact I do have a good time now because they do.

Outside of the business, the reasons we live well, are directly related to the
taxes we pay. Can you imagine stepping out of your office and hitting a dirt
track? Taxes payed the paved street. Can you imagine that sprawling towns,
such as the ones we live in, would function for a moment without Police and
oversight? Do you think software businesses could be made outside of sprawling
towns?

There is a certain basic infrastructure that needs to be in place to get the
best out of people and that's what good government provides. I lived in
Germany and Canada, both countries with welfare systems and health systems
that the states now finally aspires to, and I have enjoyed (relatively) good
government for my entire life.

If we cut out taxes of all kind we will end up without those basic
infrastructure and the foundation on what the OP build his business will no
longer exist.

~~~
gfodor
This, of course, is a strawman. The taxes being railed against are not the
libertarian-esque ones like infrastructure and defense, but more controversial
ones like corporate bailouts.

~~~
fallentimes
And the allocation and efficiency of the taxes already in place. If you work
for the government, largely due to lack of competition & indifference, there's
very little meritocracy and it's hard to fire people.

------
Maascamp
Interestingly the higher taxes will in part be used to raise the standard of
education which will result in a more dynamic and entrepreneurial work force,
which will in turn result in more business owners looking for employees. He
simply sounds mad because he'll be making a few dollars less.

He's using a straw man argument to cover for his personal greed and ideology.
Randian indeed.

~~~
anamax
> Interestingly the higher taxes will in part be used to raise the standard of
> education which will result in a more dynamic and entrepreneurial work
> force, which will in turn result in more business owners looking for
> employees.

Yeah right.

While Obama didn't go with the worst from Chicago's education gang, their best
isn't all that good.

A convincing counter-argument will cite actual results from Chicago, a noted
bastion of educational excellence....

------
fallentimes
This exemplifies why tax avoidance (NOT evasion) has become one of my favorite
pastimes.

~~~
modoc
Any tips? We have what I think are a good group of accountants doing our books
and taxes, and yet beyond basic business expenses (computers, attending a
conference to sell our stuff, cell phone bill, etc...) we're pretty much
paying a TON of taxes.

Maybe that's all there is, but if you have any advice, I would be very
interested in hearing it. (devon@digitalsanctuary.com)

~~~
fallentimes
_Fair warning: I am not an accountant, the below information is just from my
own experiences and does not constitute professional advice. Talk to an
accountant._

The biggest one is expensing things you'd have to pay for anyway (e.g. health
club memberships [if applicable], insurance, cell phones, health savings
account, home internet & computers [if you work at home enough], parking
passes, subway cards, business mileage on your cars and lumping personal trips
& business trips together [careful with this one]. These take advantage of
pretax dollars. I encourage you to do same for your employees since you're
offering real perks with pretax dollars. Just make sure you talk to your
accountant first

If you operate on a cash-basis (as opposed to an accrual basis) make any
capital improvements/major purchases at the end of the quarter or fiscal year
instead of the beginning of the next quarter or fiscal year. You can get
around some of the 401k limitations if you own your own business. Finally,
sometimes it's cheaper, in a tax sense to issue dividends to yourself and
fellow equity holders. All of this varies significantly by legal formation and
state.

Finally - and I can't emphasize this enough - _invest in a good accountant_.
There's so many write-offs & tricks that the average person would never even
think of and the laws, in typical US fashion, are filled with red tape & loop
holes. Having someone to help you navigate them is crucial.

------
natch
I can't believe this is on HN. He writes as though he didn't get the memo on
the fact that the McCain plan was much worse than the Obama plan. Why are we
discussing this?

~~~
Prrometheus
The McCain plan was an attempt to equalize the tax incentives facing
individuals and large businesses looking to buy a health insurance plan, thus
severing the tight link between employment and health care which hinders
potential startup founders. Obama's plan, as far as I can tell, is "more
subsidies".

------
quoderat
Are people still shilling for McCain at this late date?

The election is over, you know.

------
koraybalci
I get 403 on that link..

~~~
fallentimes
Works for me. I recreated it here for you as well:

<http://tinypaste.com/pre.php?id=3b399>

------
ajkirwin
He mentions the 50% figure a lot of times and it's one I find particularly
interesting, because in a lot of countries which tend to have good socialized
healthcare, social security, et al and don't have to run deficits or anything
like that, tend to have personal tax rates of AROUND 50%.

~~~
pedalpete
Yup! As a Canadian we can pay more than 50% income tax plus Provincial taxes,
sales taxes and all the other taxes.

It doesn't stop Canadians from operating businesses. RIM is Canadian, EA has a
huge operation in Canada. When you hear of companies moving from Canada to the
US, I believe it is more often brain drain than due to the taxes.

~~~
cvg
The Western provinces have lower tax burdens than many states in the US. I
compared a few income and family situations with my California income, and
there's a 5-10% savings in taxes. Add in the free healthcare and the option to
get a 15% rate on small business and British Columbia is looking really good.
If only the weather was good.

Canada Tax Estimate Calculator:
[http://www.ey.com/GLOBAL/content.nsf/Canada/Tax_-
_Calculator...](http://www.ey.com/GLOBAL/content.nsf/Canada/Tax_-
_Calculators_-_2008_Personal_Tax)

