

Ask HN: Flunking out of college, how to proceed?  - defnhelpme

I am currently a sophomore in college, going for a computer science degree and will not be able to finish it. My GPA first semester of freshmen year was bad enough to put me on academic probation. I managed to pull it up and stay in school but currently I am beyond burnt out. I am completely hopeless and very unhappy for the first time in my life. I can’t sleep, often staying up until sunrise. The only thing keeping my sane is tinkering with a ClojureScript&#x2F;canvas library i’m working on.<p>I have no willpower to do anything in any of my non-major courses. I love computer science, but it is a struggle for me. Virtually all of my time is spent in my CS and Math courses, and I am failing them too. This will be my last semester, there is no recovering my grades. Luckily my parents are footing the bill, and parental shame aside, nothing terrible is going to happen as a result of me failing college.<p>I want to just work on something for someone. I don’t have enough savings to pay rent and won’t be able to ask my parents for assistance when I fail out. Living at home is the last option I want to explore. Is there any chance of getting hired without a CS degree? I have three years of summer internships at a C# shop, but all the places around me require a degree to even apply (far northeast USA).<p>I don’t know how people handle situations like this. Is there some sort of person I can talk to about how to go about getting a job, moving to that location, not getting screwed on rent…<p>I am lost and frankly, fucking scared. Anyone have any advice, or been in a situation similar to this one?
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phaus
No matter where you end up working, some of the things you are going to be
expected to do will be things that you aren't interested in doing. So far,
your performance in college hasn't proven that you are capable of holding down
a job. Right or wrong, from the perspective of an employer, the situation you
described above would make me worry that you might have an aversion to hard
work.

I'm not saying that you should stay in school, even though it would be a good
idea, but maybe instead you should build a few personal projects from start to
finish. That will allow you to demonstrate to employers that you are capable
of working through the hard/boring parts of software development and pushing
through to the end.

Also, you need to get your sleeping disorder under control. Being tired all
the time kills your ability to concentrate and execute. See a doctor if you
have to. If you don't take care of yourself now, you'll regret it when you are
older.

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beneater
I was in exactly this situation back in 1996. I moved back in with my parents
and enrolled in a couple classes at the local community college. I guess the
assumption was that I'd get back on track and transfer back to a 4-year
program, but that never happened (academia really wasn't for me). At the same
time a friend connected me with an internship doing what amounted to desktop
PC support, though it developed into more than that over time.

It turned out I was much better suited to (and motivated by) real world work.
(I already had a reasonable amount of software development experience prior to
college.) I quickly proved my usefulness, was able to take on more
responsibility, and learned a ton about networking hardware over the next year
or so. I should point out that during this internship, I was working _a lot_.
I was really into what I was doing, really enjoyed everything I was learning,
and seeking lots of feedback from everyone around me.

Since dot-coms were all the rage at the time, there were tons of places hiring
anyone who knew anything about the internet (today, it would be mobile or web
development perhaps). After a year or so, when I started interviewing, it was
apparent I had the relevant experience and no one cared that I hadn't finished
college.

I got lucky with the internship, I got lucky with timing (dot-com boom), and I
got lucky that I really enjoyed doing something that happened to be highly
marketable. But I also was really motivated and worked hard. I hated school
because it felt so pointless. But entering the real world, I felt super-
motivated because I felt I was doing something productive that wasn't just a
contrived assignment to be graded and discarded. If this sounds like you,
maybe you'll follow a similar path. On the other hand, if your poor
performance in school is a reflection of general lack of motivation that would
carry over to work, you've got a tougher problem to solve. My guess is that
based on your previous internships, you already know the answer.

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defnhelpme
Thanks everyone who answered. There are a lot of questions but most can be
distilled down to how lazy I was.

I was lazy this semester, I thought I had a good handle on the material until
this week when I failed all my midterms. I hardly sleep anymore which also
plays a roll. I for sure could have been more active in pursuing help but to
be honest I had no idea I needed it

I go out a decent amount, usually once a week, sometimes twice. It's not the
"weeeeew college" level of partying from freshmen year, I would say it has
little to no impact anymore on my grades.

One last relevant fact, it took me 3 tries to pass calculus, in highschool I
was passed in precalc because the teacher knew I was involved in a lot of work
after a botched computer donation program to our neighboring schools. This
year I had to self-teach myself a lot which was tough, and the few times I did
see my professor or TA they would only explain the material covered in class.
To quote "I'm not here to teach you algebra/calculus". That is totally
reasonable but having to have a logarithm cheat sheet with you at review
sessions kinda sucks, not to mention I got shot down enough times early on
where I would second guess asking questions for fear of them being too
elementary.

I'm aware I fucked this up, but I really do love to code. It's the only thing
i'm (ironically) not burned out on.

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MisterBastahrd
You're asking for advice, but you aren't asking the right questions.

Why are you flunking out? You've told us about all these things happening to
you, but that doesn't tell us why.

Are you genuinely bad at CS and math? Is that stressing you out so much that
you don't feel you have the time to focus on your other courses? Would you be
better off with a part time schedule until you get your legs under you?

How much of your time is allocated towards study / school work, and how much
of it towards extracurriculars (social time, games, pet projects, browsing the
web, getting hammered) on a weekly basis?

Do you really like developing software? No, I don't mean whether you'd really
like a job developing software and the perks it brings with it, I mean do you
really LIKE developing software? Because if you don't, and you don't have a
degree, you're probably going to have a bad time.

Why do you think you make a good hire? While some classes can be boring, so
are projects in the real world. The job market isn't interested in charity
cases, nor is it interested in people who can't stay interested on mundane
details (because there are ALWAYS mundane details).

You can't know the path to success if you don't know why you're failing and
how to fix it.

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Glitch101
First off if programming is what you want to do as career, you got 3 options:

1) Same school try harder, but at a reduced work load that still keeps you
full-time.

2) Different school with better teachers (This include curriculum) and take a
reduced work load.

\- If you find you having spare time while getting good grades in those
courses, build a portfolio of projects.

3) If your done with school as a option, than start building a portfolio as it
will need to show future employers what you are capable of doing. Now finding
a job without a degree will be very difficult, you'll probably have to do a
lot of volunteer work that could turn to full time work if you show
initiative.

Now with this being said I've been kicked out of a top 100 university world
wide and after that way up call I got my degree at another university
specializing in teaching. What I found from that experience was I enjoyed
programming but not how it was being delivered to me at that university.

Oh the sooner you inform of your parents with a plan and a update of your
current situation, the better chances you will feel relieved. Though this is
dependent on your relation with you parents.

ps - Make a list list of things to do and sort them on scale of difficulty.
Eliminate them to help you get back on a career path and bring some order to
your situation.

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andymoe
Well.. I just stopped showing up. That was a _bad_ idea. Don't do that. It's
probably too late but see if you can drop as many classes as you can before
failing them or try to take them for no credit. Then take a break.

Honestly I feel like it took me ten years to recover from "dropping out." in
the manner I did. Go look at the "Things I used to do." section of my profile.
That's what it took me to get back to really programming and ultimately
starting a business but It took a long time and a lot of work. That's about
ten years worth of jobs there. Maybe I'm better for it but maybe not. College
is not for everyone but looking back I wish I had 1) sought more help while I
was there 2) Focused just a bit harder. 3) realized it's a game to play -
there are many of them in life. Good luck!

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karmajunkie
First, I went through that story myself. You're going to be fine, in all
likelihood. I've actually done this twice now—the first time because of
grades; the second time, my grades were fine (close to perfect, actually) and
I was just taking a break for a semester that stretched out years, and I
realized at some point that I'd have been kind of nuts to go back.

You should be aware of the challenges you're going to face though. Not because
of your grades or schooling, most likely (though that will close a few doors)
but because you're still fairly inexperienced, and it can be hard to land
those first few gigs. Develop at least one or two deep skills. That will get
your foot in the door a little easier. Blog a lot. And the last, best piece of
advice I have, that I wish I'd learned ten years earlier—build your community
network and find a mentor. Those relationships are the most critical assets
you can have early on, IMHO.

There's a hundred ways to success, and those are just the things I've learned
so far—about me. There's sure to be a lot of other good thoughts about your
situation that are worth paying attention to, and you'll still likely find
your own. Best of luck to you.

------
c0w
> I have no willpower to do anything in any of my non-major courses.

If you're not motivated enough to buy textbooks and work through them on your
own I'd suggest looking around for a trade school that will allow you to
specialize in programming. Your coursework will be pure programming.

> I want to just work on something for someone.

As a sophomore it is unlikely that you have the necessary skills to do much of
anything for anyone, software-wise. Why not start a few projects of your own
and learn as you go?

> Living at home is the last option I want to explore.

It's probably your best option, in my opinion. With your lack of coding skills
its very unlikely that you'll be able to find a programming job, leaving low-
paid, low-skilled jobs as your only other option. Working a 9-to-5 is tiring
and it will be very hard to find the motivation to come home from work, study,
and code. Why not live with the parents for a few years while you teach
yourself how to program? Free room and board is a pretty sweet deal.

> Is there some sort of person I can talk to about how to go about getting a
> job

There are always mid-clients/recruiters and monster.com, dice.com, etc. With
the little amount of programming skills that you have, no real resume, and no
portfolio it will be difficult.

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artacus
IMO as long as you make an effort to seek help from your professors in all of
the classes you're having problems in, that is to say you actually go when
they have their scheduled office hours so that they can figure out how to get
you to understand what they are teaching; after all it is their job to be able
to explain the material. Then at the very minimum you should pass the classes
and eventually have what all deep thinkers all over the world have, a diploma.

If it's at all possible for you to get through college without going into debt
with student loans then stick it out. And make the professors do their job by
transmitting their knowledge in such a way that you understand it, and again
the best way is to see them during their office hours. This way if you come up
a little short on the exams they'll remember you and give a passing score
(that's where pass/no pass can help out a lot if it's offered) Seriously I
used that strategy myself in a couple of classes that I needed to pass and it
worked.

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dallasgutauckis
When you say "require a degree to even apply", what do you mean? How do you
know? Is this one of those cases where it just says, "BA in CS or equivalent
experience" as one of the line-items? If so, ignore that. Submit a résumé.

I dropped out of college my first year. I'm not going to say it works for
everyone (or even most people) -- I had a LOT of experience before college --
but it's possible it may work for you. Though, what I will say is the same
thing someone will recommend down the road when you're looking for a new job:
don't quit before you've secured your next position.

Consider looking toward startups where degrees tend to be less important --
corporate cultures tend to lean on degrees too much as a means for filtering
candidates, and it's probably not the type of place you want to be anyhow.

------
misframer
> I have no willpower to do anything in any of my non-major courses.

How did you manage in high school? Is there a lack of motivation? Are you
distracted?

> I love computer science, but it is a struggle for me. Virtually all of my
> time is spent in my CS and Math courses, and I am failing them too.

Have you asked professors or TAs for help? Have you tried getting a tutor? I'm
pretty sure your college has more than enough resources to help.

> nothing terrible is going to happen as a result of me failing college.

You can't know for sure, so I suggest not convincing yourself that this is the
truth. It probably isn't.

Quitting school is not uncommon, but it's not the same as flunking out. Who
would hire someone who couldn't manage to get through a few CS classes in
college?

------
JSeymourATL
Take a serious look at the US Military. Lots of smart guys have leveraged that
experience to build highly successful careers. In exchange for serving your
country, you'll get first-rate training, solid experience, & a chance to see
some of the world.

------
jfasi
A few questions in the way of exploration rather than accusations, feel free
to answer or not answer however you're comfortable.

Could you elaborate on what led to these circumstances? Did you find the
courseload too difficult? What percentage of your attention did you devote to
your coursework? What was your background with the subjects before you went to
college?

More general questions: What is your social situation like i.e. do you have
friends you can talk to? Are you living by yourself or with roommates? Are
there any academic advisers you can reach out to? Are there any mental health
services at your college you would feel comfortable reaching out to for help?

------
jsun
I mean... no hate but this doesn't sound like a case of college is useless. If
you tried your hardest and failed out, then maybe engineering isn't for you. I
understand the engineering curriculum is much harder, but the fact of the
matter is, to be a decent engineer you should be able to pass. It'd be a
different story if you were failing because you were disinterested and had
much better things to do with your time, but if you were failing because you
can't get data structures or discrete mathematics then maybe it's time to
change fields.

------
htilford
I know going home sucks. but I've been there, and my advice is to withdraw
from your college, go home and maybe take some classes at your local junior
college. your health is more important than a degree. and in time you'll
either get a degree or get enough experience that it doesn't matter anymore.

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brandonhsiao
If you can code, you're not enjoying school, and you're always coding instead
of studying anyway, just drop out for a few years and go join a startup (they
don't care about degrees). You can always go back to school if it's absolutely
necessary.

Disclaimer: it's what I did, so I'm biased.

------
crb002
Get yourself to a shrink, seriously. Call it ADHD or whatever but it sounds
like you have the drive, just a problem with focus.

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jesusmichael
join the army... write code in your down time... get a girlfriend... smoke
some pot... go back to school when you have a clue.

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SimpleXYZ
Some companies see a degree as a must, some will offer you less money if you
don't have one, and a growing number don't care. (Since a degree hardly makes
you stand out anymore.) You will probably be surprised at how many companies
follow this formula: "we need this > you can build this > you're hired". (And
that is the only thing they go on.)

If it was me, I would just lie and say I have a degree. Keep applying until
you find a company that doesn't check. If you are smart and talented, no one
will think twice. Even if they do, there's a chance you'll be entrenched in
the position and they won't want the cost of replacing you any way. Don't be
scared, just always think about your options and choices, especially the
unconventional/controversial ones...

~~~
curiousphil
I don't think lying is good advice for anything. No one wants to live a lie
and word can travel fast and ruin this guys credibility depending on the
industry he wants to get into.

~~~
SimpleXYZ
There are plenty of very honest people living under bridges and eating rats.

You either think it's wrong for a starving man to steal bread, or you don't.

