
Don't Mess with Texas - kyleblarson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Mess_with_Texas
======
renewiltord
My god, this is amazing. They marketed their anti-litter campaign as a state-
pride manly-man issue to great success. I love it. Very intelligent hack.

This is also a very interesting story about the importance of diversity on a
team. While TXDOT wanted to go with "Please Keep Texas Beautiful", this guy
knew the kind of guy he had to convince wouldn't listen to that stuff.
Brilliant.

There's another one (less successful though still successful) which I remember
just because it's so catchy:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Click_It_or_Ticket](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Click_It_or_Ticket)
. When I had family visiting from elsewhere you could just say "Click It or
Ticket" and they'd get it. Sure the real reason I want them to wear the
seatbelt isn't because of the ticket, but the slogan combined with the fact
that I can outsource the argument to the state is great.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
> Click It or Ticket

I've always hated this one because there is a significant contingent of people
who disagree with seatbelt laws -- even if they themselves always wear their
seatbelts -- because it's a central example of a law that shouldn't exist when
the role of criminal law is to save innocent people from bad people and not
idiots from themselves.

And then the campaign feels like a direct attack on the people who don't agree
with the law, which encourages defiance, which is the exact opposite of the
intended effect. With the further effect of making people angry while they're
driving a car, which dangerous in itself.

The cynic may also notice that such laws are commonly passed in order to
generate revenue, in which case stimulating defiance could be fully
intentional because more defiance generates more revenue.

~~~
FullyFunctional
You are implying that the consequence of not wearing a seat belt and having an
accident hurts only the idiot? That's not the case. There's a cost to society
(we have to clean up the mess) and to the family (if any). It's incredibly
selfish and irresponsible to take such completely pointless risks.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
And yet there are still a large number of people who disagree with you, take
the campaign as an affront and respond with defiance, which still makes use of
that campaign instead of a less threatening one inherently dangerous. Notice
that this is true _even if you 're right about the seatbelt law_.

> There's a cost to society (we have to clean up the mess) and to the family
> (if any).

The cost of cleaning up the accident site is de minimis. The cost to the
family is an internal family matter -- if you care about your loved ones, get
them to wear their seat belts.

~~~
Hamuko
> _And yet there are still a large number of people who disagree with you,
> take the campaign as an affront and respond with defiance, which still makes
> use of that campaign instead of a less threatening one inherently
> dangerous._

Do you have figures to back that up or is this conjecture?

~~~
AnthonyMouse
You can find polls of popular support for seatbelt laws anywhere. The numbers
depend on the poll but generally some large plurality of people (e.g. 30-40%)
disagree with the law, sometimes more.

It's obviously basically impossible to measure how many of them respond to the
campaign by not wearing their seat belts, but out of what would be something
like a hundred million people who disagree with the law, do you really expect
the number to be _zero_?

~~~
Hamuko
Well, if I need to guess how many of the 30-40% people who disagree with the
seatbelt law would use seatbelts if not mandated, and are now not using them
to spite their own face, I am guessing a very low figure (not a large amount
of people). Lower than the amount of people who were not using seatbelts and
are now using them if for no other reason than to save themselves a fine at
least.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
It doesn't have to be larger than the number of people who use a seat belt
because of the law, only the number of people who use a seat belt because this
campaign was more effective than an alternative campaign that isn't so
antagonistic, e.g. one that emphasizes the risk of death rather than the risk
of fine, which you would generally expect to be a bigger motivator anyway.

And the better campaign may in particular be more effective at getting the
people who weren't wearing their seat belts originally and still don't under
this campaign, because they're more likely to be the defiant ones to begin
with, so they're more likely to be receptive to a less antagonistic campaign.

~~~
Hamuko
How many people disagreed with the campaign then?

~~~
AnthonyMouse
You're asking for something you have to know nobody has polled on one way or
the other.

But the number of people who disagreed with the law to begin with is probably
a pretty good approximation for the number of people who disagreed with a
campaign which is effectively promoting the law.

~~~
Hamuko
> _You 're asking for something you have to know nobody has polled on one way
> or the other._

Yeah, since you're arguing that the campaign was bad because people disagreed
with it and stating it as a fact.

> _But the number of people who disagreed with the law to begin with is
> probably a pretty good approximation for the number of people who disagreed
> with a campaign which is effectively promoting the law._

In what way?

~~~
AnthonyMouse
> Yeah, since you're arguing that the campaign was bad because people
> disagreed with it and stating it as a fact.

It is a fact. I've met people who do this.

> In what way?

There are people who disagree with a law that orders them to do something they
think should be a personal choice. There are people who disagree with an ad
campaign that orders them to do something they think should be a personal
choice.

If you had to propose a hypothesis about whether a correlation exists between
these two groups, what would it be?

~~~
Hamuko
If the only reason why people react badly to the campaign is the fact that
they disagree with the seatbelt law in general, then the whole argument about
whether or not the campaign was too aggressive is moot. They hate the campaign
because of the law, not because of what the sign says.

------
hirundo
Today is the 184th anniversary of the Battle of San Jacinto, "the decisive
battle of the Texas Revolution". Outnumbered Texians defeated the Mexican army
in a lopsided slaughter and captured their general.

So a good day for a story with this headline even if it is about littering.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_San_Jacinto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_San_Jacinto)

~~~
Aloha
Sam Houston was an interesting man, Governor of two states, president of a
young republic, a general (and talented one at that), a slaveholder yes, but
he considered the civil war an effort in futility.

~~~
gpanders
Indeed he was! He was also quite outspoken against the treatment of Native
Americans (at least, relative to his time) having spent a significant amount
of time living among the Cherokee. This won him quite a few enemies, as the
"Indian problem" was a pretty significant issue in the nascent Republic of
Texas.

He was strongly opposed to Texas secession and gave one of his most famous
speeches in opposition to it.

For anyone interested, T. R. Fehrenbach's "Lone Star" is a great history of
Texas and of Sam Houston (among many other colorful characters).

~~~
gluelogic
This is an old thread, but I have to thank you for recommending this book. I
ordered it and have been hooked! Incredible writing and storytelling. Thanks
from this Texan.

------
astrea
I have heard that phrase and seen the signs my entire life and never knew it
originated with the litter campaign. I feel like it's lost a certain, "je ne
sais quoi", learning that.

~~~
hanniabu
Same, when I heard that before I always assumed it had something to do with
their gun advocacy.

~~~
matsemann
In a similar vein: In Norwegian since the fifties, we have used the word Texas
to mean something crazy. Normally it's used as "helt texas" (completely
texas), and describes a situation out of control.

Edit: a source/explanation
[https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34622478](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34622478)

~~~
vanniv
When I was in Oslo, I was so confused by the takeaway restaurants that were
selling various "Texas" combos that had nothing at all to do with Texas.

The only specific one I remember was a Texas Gyro combo with Texas fries and a
coke.

The picture was of a gyro pita with like four kinds of sauce, and a giant
bucket of fries.

~~~
yellowapple
I mean, that does sound like something that'd sell like gangbusters in Texas.
Or anywhere, for that matter. A gyro and fries sounds pretty damn amazing
right about now.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
I know a lunch counter (closed down last year, sadly) that offered a "gyro
fries" meal, which was a big plate of fries topped with gyro meat, sauteed
onions, feta and tons of tzatziki.

It was good!

------
yyy888sss
In NSW,Australia we have "Don't be a tosser".

~~~
prawn
In case this doesn’t translate outside of AU, a tosser (beyond someone
throwing rubbish) is a “wanker”, a tool, an idiot.

There have been road safety signs along the same lines using w(anchor symbol)
and a rooster (cock). Trying to market to punch through male bravado I guess.

------
seph-reed
These adverts are hilarious.

This one ends with a personal threat:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2qIF3PL7lQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2qIF3PL7lQ)

And this one ends with another personal threat:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb-
LPbUeiWA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb-LPbUeiWA)

Basically, "if you litter, we'll fuck your shit up." I love it!

~~~
intrepidhero
Came here to post the one of the B-17 (Sentimental Journey) chasing a truck.
Hehe.

------
dang
[https://priceonomics.com/the-surprising-origins-of-dont-
mess...](https://priceonomics.com/the-surprising-origins-of-dont-mess-with-
texas/) is related from 2014

(via
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7879107](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7879107),
but no comments)

------
mdturnerphys
In Washington State the signs say "Litter and it will hurt" and show the fine
for littering. The phrase has always seemed a bit awkward to me.

~~~
gammarator
In Australia there are signs along the highway that say things like "Drowsy
Drivers Die" and "Rest/Revive/Survive."

Got my attention.

~~~
floren
When I first moved to New Mexico, I was puzzled by the billboards which
featured a stern cop and the word "ENDWI". What the hell's an endwi?
Eventually I realized it was just the (weird) slogan from the state anti-drunk
driving (Driving While Intoxicated) campaign.

~~~
dreamcompiler
The NM signs I love are the ones that say "Gusty Winds May Exist."

Indeed.

------
chasd00
I always loved this Don't mess with Texas commercial. A low pass by a B17 must
have been so amazing to film.

[https://youtu.be/XlFD0Zyl_f0](https://youtu.be/XlFD0Zyl_f0)

~~~
officemonkey
It would have been a lot better if they used an A-10. It's basically a flying
gun.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunde...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II)

~~~
a5seo
*It woulda been cooler...

~~~
officemonkey
No. The A-10 is a better platform to destroy individual pickup trucks. The
bomber is overkill.

------
hyperhopper
> Since the phrase is a federally registered trademark, the department has
> tried at times to enforce its trademark rights with cease and desist letters

This was the most shocking bit in the article for me. Trademark law was meant
to prevent unfair competition, why would the government of Texas be worrying
about the use of this to sell pro-Texas price merchandise? Seems like its the
government itself going against the spirit of the law.

~~~
dylan604
Exactly this. If people are selling merch with that slogan, then the DoT
should get a cut. I know "Don't Mess With Texas" merch exists, but I don't
know if any of it was official from the DoT. If it did, the other merch would
interfere with it's ability to monetize its trademark.

I'm sure a simple online search would show you examples of merch that, while
funny, clearly isn't something a state level agency would release.

------
wkyle
It's kind of interesting that state departments of transportations are so
involved in anti-litter campaigns. Seems like they were the most relevant
government stakeholders prior to the creation of the EPA. The Keep America
Beautiful campaign was also involved with state DOTs [1], and many current
anti-litter campaigns involve/are run by the local DOT (Tennessee [2],
Mississippi [3] are two examples). I guess it makes sense when you consider
the abundance of litter on highways, but trash certainly has environmental
effects beyond the highway.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_America_Beautiful](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_America_Beautiful)

[2] [https://litter.mdot.ms.gov/](https://litter.mdot.ms.gov/)

[3] [https://nobodytrashestennessee.com/](https://nobodytrashestennessee.com/)

~~~
egypturnash
People throwing trash out of their car windows was a major problem for a long
time. It’d accumulate on the sides of the highways and look nasty and be a
hazard to wildlife.

It’s gotten better over my lifetime but it’s not like cars come with a built
in trash receptacle that you can get a standard bag size for to make dealing
with it easy. That would be pretty nice.

~~~
ghaff
I'm sure it's nothing like it used to be but I still end up picking up way
more discarded McDonald's cups and beer cans in front of my property than one
would think would be the case in this day and age. (A fairly busy 2-lane road
though I'm set pretty far back.)

------
ghaff
Great (and very funny) video from Jeremy Gutsche that talks about the
campaign. The whole thing is great but the part specifically about the Texas
campaign starts just after about 12:00.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhomTOMRS7c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhomTOMRS7c)

------
philsnow
One of my favorite t-shirts says (in the shape of TX) "Don't Mess and God
Bless".

[https://www.amazon.com/Mason-Jar-Label-Llc-
Shirt/dp/B07PK5FW...](https://www.amazon.com/Mason-Jar-Label-Llc-
Shirt/dp/B07PK5FW3J)

~~~
_jal
I've always been partial to this one:

[https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Don-t-Mess-With-Texas-
Oh...](https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Don-t-Mess-With-Texas-Ohio-by-
amorphia/13179379.IJ6L0.classic-tee-w)

(There is a Texas, Ohio, if that helps.)

------
joan_kode
" _McClure said that he created the slogan when he saw garbage while walking
near his house._ "

Did a double take on that sentence, it's easy to miss the "while".

------
gorgoiler
Well I never! I shall look forward to being surprised by whichever public
awareness campaign begat _We don’t dial 9-1-1_ over a photo of a revolver.

------
pengaru
Ages ago in my teens I was part of a group road-tripping cross-country and we
passed through Texas.

I vaguely recall us encountering trash bins at a rest area with this slogan
emblazoned on them, and one of the kids in the group accepting the challenge,
kicking over _all_ of the trash cans.

Makes me wonder if such a slogan is a net win over just advertising stiff
fines for littering. There will always be people who see such things like NO
TRESPASSING signs as an impotent challenge.

~~~
dylan604
Honestly, your friend was just an idiot teenager. No slogan will ever reduce
the number of idiots. I'd be willing to say that the number of people knocking
over trash cans just to defy a slogan is pretty low. There's a difference
between being in opposition to overzealous authority. However, knocking over
trash cans is pretty much just dumb.

------
SamReidHughes
Texas also has great scare-quoted ‘“left” lane for passing only’ signs.
(Because it’s called the passing lane.)

------
ncmncm
Everone knows nothing in life is certain but death in Texas.

------
foreigner
Even more Texan: "Come and take it!"

~~~
profunctor
Isn't that Greek?

~~~
xellisx
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_take_it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_take_it)

------
asdfman123
Tell that to OPEC.

~~~
dang
Please don't post unsubstantive comments here. The topic is the slogan and its
history.

Off-topic tangents are fine when they're unpredictable, but not when they
change the subject to a more generic topic, and especially not a generic
political one.

