
Women and Tech - heatherpayne
http://womenandtech.com
======
sophacles
Neat project. I like the focus on the positive. IMO this will be a good
resource. I really hope this succeeds and takes off in a big way. I like to
encourage the women I know in tech to participate in stuff like this, but many
times they don't want to because a lot of times "women in tech" issues focus
too much on the negative, or the sexism issue rather than the positive or even
just the tech.

I don't know _anyone_ in Toronto, but I have several nominations around the
US, should your scope expansion work out :)

(Completely aside: is there any good advice for men who want to further the
role of women in tech -- because balance is always a good idea -- to help and
encourage without being overbearing or accidentally patronizing? I worry about
furthering the problem accidentally so I very rarely bring up this topic, even
though I feel strongly about it).

~~~
ericabiz
"Completely aside: is there any good advice for men who want to further the
role of women in tech..."

As a successful woman in tech, I would say the following:

\--Note that women tend to underplay their accomplishments and judge
themselves more harshly (I've also seen men who fit into this pattern, but
it's more common with women.) So when a woman who fits this pattern says "I'm
decent at x", it may be the same as a man saying "I'm great at x."

\--Become a champion for the women in your life who deserve more recognition.
Encourage them to take more leadership roles, jump at more speaking gigs when
presented with the opportunity, etc. Women will often tend to think "I'm not
ready for that yet" while a man with similar experience will say "Yeah, let's
go for it!"

\--Help the youngest girls in your life develop more self-confidence. My
cousin, a brilliantly smart teenager, kept telling me, "I'm terrible at math."
I encouraged her to focus on the positive (she was getting great grades in her
math classes, and understood the problem set) and to think more positively
about her abilities.

This lack of self-confidence is ingrained from an early age in many women and
affects us throughout life in many cases. Encouraging girls to think more
empowering thoughts and to have more confidence may be the best thing you can
do to give them a better chance for success.

~~~
wccrawford
I'm a guy who fits your description of judging themselves too harshly and
downplaying their skills and readiness. I have a tough time telling when other
people are doing this, even though I do it myself.

Do you have any advice for telling when someone is doing this?

I ask because I can't blindly apply it to women any more than men, because
I've seen so many women be over-confident in their skills, too.

~~~
ericabiz
"Do you have any advice for telling when someone is doing this?"

Yes.

Put simply, learn to read facial cues. (It's easier than you think--much like
a programming language, facial cues are a system. So if you are a systems
thinker--and I bet you are, based on the fact that you're here on Hacker News
--learning facial and body cues will probably be one of the best time
investments you'll ever make.)

I had no ingrained social skills when I grew up, so I had to learn facial cues
to understand how to fit in socially. I can read nervousness on a face, and I
can read the body posture and awkwardness that comes with not being sure of
your ideas.

The first thing I did was to videotape myself speaking and focus on getting
rid of those same cues in my own speech and posture. Then I started watching
others. After a while, I could start to pick up all kinds of stuff. It's like
a hidden language. I could tell when someone was lying or untrustworthy, when
they were interested in what I was saying and when they had zoned out, etc.
Incredibly useful!

So, to tell when someone is judging themselves too harshly, I look for two
patterns:

1) Negative self-talk. "I never could do this...I can't do this...I don't know
how to do this...this is impossible...I guess I'm just not cut out for
this..." are some of the verbal patterns. Another common verbal pattern is
looking for the negative in a given situation..."Yeah, I know C++, but not
Javascript, and so I'm not the right fit" vs. "I'm a great programmer; I don't
know Javascript yet, but I'm sure I can pick it up given some time and
guidance." (I made a concerted effort to get rid of my own negative self-talk
and documented the result here: [http://www.erica.biz/2008/my-7-day-no-
complaining-wrapup-or-...](http://www.erica.biz/2008/my-7-day-no-complaining-
wrapup-or-how-to-acknowledge-yourself-101/) )

2) Demeanor cues. Socially awkward, casting down glances toward the floor, not
meeting eyes, mumbling. (Don't get too upset if you have some of these but you
feel like you don't fit the description above...these can also describe other
behaviors.)

Here is the book I used to learn more about this:
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0757003141/ref=as_li_ss_tl?...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0757003141/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=ericadotbiz-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0757003141)
It was fantastic to read and finally feel relief that people's facial and body
cues are a system that I can learn and understand.

------
gilrain
I'd prefer a slightly different slogan. I like "We're not endorsing the
obvious," but I feel like "We're really not complaining" is a bit insulting to
those who really are highlighting the problems with sexism in technology
fields. That's valuable work too, and I don't think it's a positive step to
position yourself as, "We're not complainers, like those other women, gosh, am
I right?"

I love the idea, and I'll be keeping an eye on the site. I just wish the
slogan was more like, "We're not endorsing the obvious. We're celebrating the
hidden." Or something like that. You can resolve not to focus on (often well
deserved and important) "complaining", and I think that's a valuable focus for
someone to take, but please don't cast aspersions by implication on those that
do speak up about active issues.

~~~
cassiemc
Fair point and we agree – it was more that we wanted to focus on the positive,
not the negative. It's an iterative project though (including the copy) and
this is our first go so we may take another look at it. Thanks for your
thoughts!

~~~
SkyMarshal
It occurs to me it might be nice to not just recognize women in tech, but
thank them for sticking with it, despite any sexism and discouragement they
may have encountered along the way.

I've seen the case made both anecdotally and empirically that women, or maybe
more generally, mixed gender teams, boards of directors, etc., have broader
perspectives, make better decisions, take less bad risks, and are more
generally enriching than all-male.

So, perhaps a simple 'thanks for sticking with it and bringing that' would be
a nice addition.

~~~
papsosouid
I'd argue the opposite. I think "thanks for sticking with it" is patronizing.
Contrary to popular belief, women are not feeble and weak and incapable of
living in the real world. And they don't all feel victimized by some
oppressive system of sexism.

~~~
ClHans
Have you asked the women involved if they think it's patronizing?

Or is it just something you think?

~~~
papsosouid
The women involved in what? I'm not sure what you are trying to convey here,
you think there is a singular mind shared by all women involved in something,
and they all disagree that it is patronizing?

------
mibbitier
> "Let's make the issue of women in tech a thing of the past"

Really? By creating a whole website around it? I think it'd be really good to
sum up what issue you consider there to be with women in tech...

    
    
      * Are there specific instances of sexism that occur?
      * Are there "not enough" women in tech?
      * Is tech uninteresting to most women?
    

You're suggesting there's an "issue" that needs solving, but I can't find any
description on the website of what you consider that issue to be.

Sharing stories from startup women is great, although I'm not a fan of the
reverse sexism.

~~~
cassiemc
We're trying to nail down some of the issues ourselves. The issues our team
has discussed so far are often amorphous or interpreted differently depending
on context and person, so you can imagine they are difficult to pin down.
Exposure and networking were a couple of the harmless problems we thought
could help address immediately.

We do have several men on our team (more men than women, in fact), and don't
at all intend "reverse sexism".

Also, just to clarify, this isn't just for startup women but for any lady
working in tech fields – including those coders who sit behind big monitors
all day and are reluctant to put themselves in the limelight or to serve as
mentors/role models.

~~~
japhyr
I think you might be fine not mentioning specific issues yourselves. If you
let women tell their stories in an open and honest way, the issues will come
out in their stories.

If you craft some well-thought-out questions people will be likely to talk
about the specific issues they have faced, how they dealt with those issues,
and what kinds of supports they would like to see in their profession.

Focusing on people's stories is a great way to bring out these issues from the
very people who have experienced them.

------
japhyr
I love it. I think projects like this can play a strong role in addressing the
issue of sexism in technology. I also think that conditions can change
radically for the better, once there is a critical mass of projects focused on
supporting women in tech, and people who really understand the issue. It
doesn't have to be a gradual change over 20 years.

The focus of the project sounds quite meaningful, and it is well said in the
first couple lines: "We're going to share stories about smart women doing
important things." That is perfect; I want to read those stories!

The copy gets off track a bit after that, like others here are already saying.
"We're simply going to hound some clever women in tech..." does not sound
good. Part of the problem is women in tech getting hounded. I know the
intention here is good, but there is language that doesn't bring to mind the
problems. This project is strong enough that you can just say, "We're going to
invite clever women in tech..." People will understand the project, and want
to be part of it.

Others are talking about the "We're really not complaining" slogan, but I have
no idea what "We're not endorsing the obvious" means. What's obvious to me is
that telling smart women's stories is a good thing. I'm not sure what you are
referring to here.

A small design note: the top banner is huge, and takes up a lot of screen real
estate, which distracts from your message.

Again, I love it. I teach high school math and science, and I can say
anecdotally that when I show this kind of project to the young women in my
classes, I can see a change in them immediately. Most young women I see in
school have no idea that people care to support them specifically. When they
learn about projects like this, they become more confident that they could be
successful in tech-related fields. Thank you for what you are doing.

------
uncomfytruths
It's discouraging when women look up in the tech world and see mostly men.
It's discouraging when blacks look up in the entreprenuer world and see mostly
whites. It's discouraging when gentiles look up in the entertainment industry
and see mostly jews (All Major Hollywood studios founded by jews or men of
jewish descent).

It's discouraging and painful because everyone wants to know that they can
succeed. They want to know that "someone like me can make it in this
industry". So it's important for people who are minorities in industries to
support each other and encourage themselves.

Get mad if you want, my problem with "Women in Tech" is that many times (not
all) women don't add to the tech conversation and instead focus on showing
themselves as victims. When men speak about tech it's about TECH, when women
speak about tech it's about "The Lack of Women in Tech".

So a site like this is a step in the right direction.

~~~
MartinCron
Both "just talking about tech" and "talking about the lack of women in tech"
are perfectly valid and necessary types of conversations.

------
spindritf
That's a neat idea. You can post stories, work samples, a podcast, but...

If you already know whom you want to interview, the site would benefit from
having a story or two already there, on launch.

If you're targeting the tech crowd, add an rss feed in addition to the e-mail
newsletter.

And lose this bar at the top, it's completely unnecessarily wasting vertical
space.

------
heatherpayne
Seeing projects like this come to the surface makes me love living in Toronto.

~~~
cassiemc
Thanks Heather! We love Toronto too! We're mutually inspired by everything
that comes out of the place.

------
Mz
Years ago, I belonged to a gifted homeschoolers list. It turns out a lot of
gifted kids who get homeschooled are "problem kids". Very often, they are
twice exceptional: both gifted and disabled in some way. It meant that this
gifted homeschoolers list was one of the most positive, pro-active
environments for getting effective help for a child with a serious disability.
Lists aimed at providing support for a particular disability are often fairly
negative environments where assumptions about how much you must suffer subtly
keep real solutions from being discussed. Folks pursuing real solutions get a
lot of flack if they dare speak up and many of them just quietly go away after
a while.

I don't know what would create the same thing for women in tech, but I think
if someone could find that, it would be a more effective and resilient means
to get support to women in tech. It would need to be a project which just so
happened to attract a high percentage of women without the name or stated goal
having anything to do with gender and which also in no way excluded men.

~~~
mamacorin
<http://giftedhomeschoolers.org> \- still going strong! :-)

~~~
Mz
That is not the list I was talking about.

------
cjbprime
Kudos for doing this! Raising the visibility of role models for women in tech
is noble work.

I hope you find an easy way to make the site grow past Toronto, perhaps with
submitted stories from people in other cities that follow your standard style.

Have you thought about sometimes making (edited?) video recordings of the
interviews? I can see how this would make many interviewees nervous, but I
think it would also increase the effectiveness of the interviews for people
who are comfortable with it. It would help make it easier to "put a face" to
women in tech.

Hm, photos could work pretty well for that, too. Have you thought about
getting a good photographer to take photos of the women whose stories are
being told, perhaps with photos of them both "at work" and at your interview?

~~~
cassiemc
All good ideas! We hope our final presentation doesn't disappoint, because we
think we have some pretty good ideas ourselves. =) Highlighting women in other
cities as guest posts is something we hadn't thought of and I'll be sure to
bring that up with the group as something we can potentially add to our long-
term plans. Thanks!

------
astridrosemarin
This'll be good for all the event/ conference organisers in Toronto as well.
It's always tough getting women to speak at those sorts of things!

~~~
britburger
Nail on the head! Absolutely! This was actually a driving force behind the
project's genesis. To address the unbalance in conference speaker lineups by
raising the public profile of incredible women working in the community.

------
iuguy
I like this. I'm not too sure about the slogan as others have mentioned, but
something that focuses on the positive achievements of women in industry to me
is far better than focusing on the negative like the terrible link from last
week.

The only disappointing thing was the link to Toronto, I have two women in the
UK that I'd nominate straight from the get go and a possible third (although
I'd need to clear it with her first).

~~~
cassiemc
Yes there are clearly awesome women all over the world doing amazing things in
Tech. But since we are a small team we needed a reasonable focus area. We
definitely encourage you to do something similar wherever you are, though!

------
timc3
Peopleandtech.com? If they are celebrating awesomeness?

~~~
aristus
Because of my name I get occasional contacts from journalists who write for
magazines with names like "Latino Business" and "Technology California
Latino". At first I felt the same as you, but one of the journalists explained
it to me quite well:

The point is not to mindlessly cheerlead because a person has some attribute,
whether it's two X chromosomes, or a last name ending in a vowel, etc. The
point is to aggregate the accomplishments of people with that attribute, so
they don't always feel so damned alone.

My wife was working at a large tech company on an automated translation
system. She needed some more native Spanish speakers to help vet the output.
The call went out to the regular employees, thousands of people, and she got
nothing. Hindi, Chinese, OK. But no Spanish. She ended up going down to the
cafeteria (!) and asking the workers there to help out.

Maybe, someday, a woman programmer will be as unremarkable as a woman lawyer.
Until then, well, keep remarking on it.

~~~
juliehache
"The point is not to mindlessly cheerlead because a person has some attribute,
whether it's two X chromosomes, or a last name ending in a vowel, etc."

Well said! Every time I show up at a tech event and someone shouts "Yay!
There's a girl here!", it just makes me want to leave.

~~~
shrub
I am rather apprehensive about something of the opposite effect. I'm a chick
and I'll be attending Google I/O this year . It'll be my first tech
conference. I looked at the pictures from last year and it appears men are the
majority by a long shot. Trouble is, I'm a sufficiently plain looking chick
that I imagine it'll be "There's a girl... aw." Maybe this sort of
apprehension is part of the issue for women in tech. Maybe it comes from those
awful "Hottest Geek Girl" articles the "booth babes" or such. Not only am I
not as geeky and successful as them, but by comparison I look like a stick
recently fetched out of a swamp, even on good days. _sigh_

~~~
Mz
I am not sure what your complaint is. But, fwiw, being beautiful is not all up
side. I was raped at age twelve and given the message it was my fault for
being too beautiful to resist. I am 47 and have a serious health issue. I am
not as pretty as I once was. It has been a relief to go more unnoticed.

------
mtalantikite
"We highlight them not for their gender, but because they are awesome by any
kind of measure."

Just curious if you really mean gender, or if you actually mean sex.

~~~
nemo1618
Okay, this whole Trans thing has gotten a little out of hand. Nobody is being
oppressed because someone used the word "gender" instead of "sex." If you feel
offended by that word choice, you're probably a little over-sensitive.

~~~
juridatenshi
It doesn't sound like the commenter is offended. I think they're asking for
clarification. If the OP means gender, then they would hopefully be welcoming
of trans women. If they mean sex, they may only be looking for cis-women.

~~~
jquery
Every time I read the word "cis-woman" I involuntarily reel from the blast of
political correctness coming out of my monitor.

~~~
saraid216
Every time I read the word "blue" I involuntarily reel from the blast of
political correctness coming out of my monitor.

Don't people know it's the same thing as green? What's the point of slicing
such fine distinctions?

~~~
jquery
Look... I support trans rights. I live in San Francisco. I have trans friends.
But call me old fashioned, we already have a word for "cis-woman," the word is
"woman". A lot of people really like that word and don't want it changed, and
that doesn't make them a bigot.

EDIT: And from a practical perspective, I think the use of "cis-woman" is
harmful to the trans community. It makes them seem kind of like they have an
extreme agenda, when they really don't. If trans people really hate being
labeled as "different," just co-opt the word woman. Stop labeling yourself AND
"cis-women" differently.

~~~
saraid216
> I have trans friends.

Assuming the best of you, let me give you a small piece of advice. _Never_ say
this. Even if it's true, and even if it's your trans friends who Made You See
The Light, etc. Not only is it an irrelevant fact, but it's a very frequent
cover for bigotry ("I have a gay friend!" "I have a black friend!" "I know
lots of women!") and will never help your case.

There are a couple reasons for this. 1, it obviously didn't keep you from
making whatever mistaken statement you made. 2, just because someone is part
of a group does not automatically make them sainted evangelists of that group.
In stricter terms, it's an argument from a false authority: your friendship
with a small group of individuals does not make you (or them) an authority on
the larger group under discussion.

> But call me old fashioned, we already have a word for "cis-woman," the word
> is "woman".

Who is "we" and why do you assume you're included? Language drifts, and it
drifts most particularly in subcultures. People discover needs to describe
things that they do not immediately have words for and begin using new words.
You can be as old-fashioned as you like; just don't prescribe how other people
talk. You ain't no po-po for da lingo.

> If trans people really hate being labeled as "different," just co-opt the
> word woman.

They did. That's when you didn't hear about them.

Think of it this way. A lot of people currently believe that gay people do not
exist. I'm serious. They do not exist, and that is part of what justifies
legislation against them. They're not trying to oppress people; they're trying
to convince supposedly gay people to relinquish their traumatic past and
return to the straight and normal. Laws that oppress a non-existent class
don't really seem like oppression. Forcefully reminding us that they _are_ a
class and that they _are_ treated differently _right now_ has value.

I mean, really. How exactly do you expect them to talk about the issue of
bathrooms without bringing up the transgenderedness? And how do you expect
them to talk about their transgenderedness without sounding like it's
something deviant?

~~~
jquery
If this is how you talk to sympathetic people, how are you ever going to
convert the hostile? Work on your message. And at least for the next 5-10
years until everyone has one, cut some slack for the line "I have trans
friends." Maybe someday that will be irrelevant but I don't think it's
irrelevant today.

You know why the word cis-women grinds my gears. The prefix sounds like "cyst"
every time I read it. It's not too late to pick something else, I doubt more
than 5% of the population has ever heard it. Marketing matters.

------
wccrawford
Where's the RSS feed? I don't know you well enough to give you my email, but
I'd put you in my feed reader and enjoy articles as they come out.

~~~
cassiemc
Don't have one yet but you could follow us on Twitter and we'll let you know
when we do. @womenandtech

------
jonathanjaeger
Great concept, LOVE the website design and typography.

~~~
cassiemc
Thank you! The web design is by Mark Staplehurst (who shared the build with
Brett Bergmann). The logotype is Blanche by Atipus via LostType.com and
headlines are in Arvo by Anton Koovit via Google web fonts.

------
JackpotDen
You missed the crucial step 4 :

Get these published in teen girl and cosmo magazines, because the women who
read it on the internet are probably already in tech.

------
groby_b
I'd love to see this expand outside Toronto. If I can offer any help/contacts
in SoCal, feel free to ping me.

~~~
cassiemc
Appreciate the offer, thanks. Be sure to keep in touch with us and we'll put a
call out if this becomes a part of our plans.

------
vishaldpatel
So, who is the intended audience?

------
nvk
We are looking for fullstack Rails devs, would love to even out the gender
ratio :)

------
debacle
I think "We're really not complaining" is taking it a bit far. Sometimes the
best way to handle an issue is to ignore the issue - why can't this site just
be about the accomplishments of women in STEM? The allusions are a detractor.

~~~
cassiemc
If you go back now you'll see we've changed the copy.

