
Ask HN: Those who moved careers from the West to China, what's your experience? - jaxbot
There&#x27;s often talk in the news about China wanting to poach Silicon Valley talent to build up their own tech scene. There&#x27;s also talk of founders who moved to Shenzhen to be closer to hardware development for rapid prototyping.<p>However, I&#x27;ve struggled to find individual examples of experiences. Has anyone done this, or know someone who has and blogs&#x2F;tweets about it? I&#x27;m curious how this looks in reality.
======
yibg
I’ve sort of done the move. If you are not ethnically Chinese and speak the
language, there will be a few things to get used to. The degree will depend a
bit on where you end up.

For example:

\- pollution can be a big problem.

\- if Chinese company, work culture can be very different. More top down,
longer hours etc.

\- noisy. Most places you go in big cities you are surrounded by noise. Cars,
people, construction. It doesn’t end.

\- I find the general quality of things to be lower. Buildings are poor
quality generally. Side walks aren’t as maintained. A lot of things look nice
from a distance only.

\- internet obviously. Things are blocked and vpn can be flaky.

\- many every day things will be more difficult. Banking, medical care etc. On
the other hand many things are also much more convenient. Food delivery,
transportation (unless you want to drive yourself) etc

There are pros too of course. You get to learn about a different culture and
language. You’ll be relatively wealthy compared to most people there. It’s
really easy to meet new people.

In the end I’d say move there if there is a good reason: Higher salary, better
opportunity you wouldn’t normally have or if you just want a change /
adventure AND you can live with the cons, at least for a while.

~~~
educationdata
I would like to add: Even if you are ethnically Chinese and speak the
language, don't go back to China unless you really cannot find a decent job in
the west.

Especially if you are young and educated in the west, here are the things to
consider:

\- It is not very hard to find a STEM job in the west, and the pay is good.

\- Your parents are healthy now, not much to worry. It's better to get a green
card before they get old.

\- You may start a family soon. It is much much easier to raise a child in the
west.

~~~
refurb
Care to expand on your last point? I haven’t heard that before.

~~~
educationdata
A) Parenting. You will mostly have no parenting on your own in China. Tech
companies will make you work long hours. It is not uncommon that when you
finished work and back home, your kid is already asleep. When you leave home
early to catch the train, your kid is still asleep. It is not a joke but many
Chinese young couples only see their kids during weekend, even they live
together. You think leaving your kid to your parents 5 days per week is good?
Noooooooooo

B) Medicare. Every time your kid gets fever: IV. Your parents just love it.
They think it is the best. Chinese people love to have their kids get blood
test, X-ray for just cough... Children's hospitals are crowded by
(grand)parents and kids who simply have cold (see pictures and story
[http://www.sohu.com/a/212568582_407108](http://www.sohu.com/a/212568582_407108)).
Most Chinese people (including educated middle class) do not understand get
cold is not because of cold, it is because of virus.

C) Also everybody knows: the highly competitive education system is a huge
burden on kids and parents. It is common to spend lots of money to purchase
apartment at good school district (xue qu fang). And many parents do this for
kids going to elementary school, middle school, high school... Middle class
life is not easy.

~~~
muzani
A story on the this point - I worked with some colleagues from a giant China
company. One of them just had his firstborn and was deployed outside the
country for 3 months. The other also had small children and was also deployed
outside his country for months.

These guys were also the first in the office, last ones out.

I doubt a Western company would be as eager to split a parent from their
babies, but this was a common thing, especially when you're the linchpin.

------
rlglwx
To be honest, don’t don’t it. Unless you’re of Chinese descent and speak the
language, you won’t be able to advance in most companies. The work culture is
alien to most westerners and the benefits to your career are negligible.

Mostly depends on what you want out of your career but speaking as someone
that lived in China and worked in Chinese tech companies for seven years,
including being the first foreign hire for a large mobile games company, it’s
not something I’d recommend mid-career. Maybe just starting out or if you can
be hired into a c-level role.

~~~
illuminati1911
"Unless you’re of Chinese descent and speak the language, you won’t be able to
advance in most companies."

There is no such issue when working for international or western companies
and/or startups. Also a local mobile games company is not a good example to
generalize with since games industry is known for being pretty horrible here.
Internationally as well.

While there are some things many westeners might find annoying, there are lot
of good things as well. For example income tax and living costs are very low.
I moved from Europe to China to work in software engineering and my living
standards have increased significantly.

~~~
echevil
I guess language barrier is the main issue here? In western companies, it's
also hard to advance to high/exec levels if someone cannot communicate in
English well.

~~~
hahamrfunnyguy
I'd say it's more like being brown in the US and trying to advance into
C-level roles ... possible, but you may encounter resistance depending on the
company and region.

------
rahimnathwani
I'm in a WeChat group for Product Managers in China. Someone asked a similar
question a few weeks ago. The context of their question was:

\- product management (not engineering)

\- working as an employee of a Chinese tech company (not starting something
themselves)

With those caveats out of the way, below is the text of my answer to them:

"As I understand it, until maybe 2000 or 2005, there was a lack of people with
specific experience in many many areas. So the median foreigner coming to
China had better experience (and ability) than did Chinese people with a
similar educational background and age.

As China's economy has developed:

\- many more Chinese have gained that experience

\- many Chinese who worked in US/Europe for many years have come back (or can
be tempted to come back)

As a result, most foreigners are equivalent to a local Chinese person, except
that:

\- they know English very well (advantage for policy/comms/bizdev roles)

\- they don't know Chinese well (e.g. hard for a Product Manager to work in a
Chinese company when the working language is Chinese and most engineers and
other peers don't speak Chinese well)

\- they aren't in touch with local culture (e.g. don't use the new live
streaming platforms that everyone else does)

\- they need a work visa (only a minor issue for all but the smallest
companies)

There are foreigners here [in this WeChat group] who work for Chinese
companies (e.g. @[REDACTED] @[REDACTED] ) and are very good at what they do.
But it's not easy.

I've interviewed at two large Chinese companies you've heard of. Both of them
tested my level of Chinese early in the process. One took me by surprise
because the interviewer had grown up in the US and so could obviously have
interviewed me in English. In the other, I was expecting interviews in
Chinese, but one of the interviews was with a data scientist and that kept me
my toes as I didn't have the vocab to explain my answers fully/concisely."

Oh, and take note of the last sentence of rlglwx's earlier comment: "Maybe
just starting out or if you can be hired into a c-level role." If you're just
starting out, then the pace and intensity of working at an early-stage Chinese
tech company could be an amazing learning experience. If you bring distinct
experience that can get you a very senior role, then you will work very hard
but could also be very well compensated. If you're in the middle, it's tricky
due to the competitive issues I mentioned above.

~~~
captainjustice
"As I understand it, until maybe 2000 or 2005, there was a lack of people with
specific experience in many many areas. So the median foreigner coming to
China had better experience (and ability) than did Chinese people with a
similar educational background and age."

I've heard this argument often, but as a someone actually living and working
here, I have to say that this hasn't changed at all or at least not in the
tech sector.

Local senior developers here in Shanghai and Beijing are usually equivalent to
a western mid- or junior+ developers. Often you see senior devs that couldn't
even be hired for junior position in the US or Europe.

Managers are often selected through relationships and connections and only in
few rare cases have any kind of ability or competence for their role.

------
paulsutter
A warning for folks considering working in China (love to hear this debunked
if untrue):

[https://www.chinalawblog.com/2016/09/the-china-stock-
option-...](https://www.chinalawblog.com/2016/09/the-china-stock-option-
scam.html)

> no foreign person can own stock in a Chinese domestic company not already
> listed on a stock market. So any such option or stock transfer is void from
> the start. Foreigners are not permitted to be shareholders of Chinese
> domestic companies, nor does China recognize the concept of nominee
> shareholders.

~~~
sabujp
you can via ADRs, at least for large companies they usually follow the market.
However under the hood this seems unfair. Why does China get to be protective
but the the west does not? Just greedy non-chinese companies that don't care
where the investments are coming from?

~~~
ralph84
> Why does China get to be protective but the the west does not?

The short answer is the west was seduced by access to the Chinese market and
was willing to do one-sided trade deals to get that access.

------
intellix
Haven't moved my career here but am working remotely for a couple of months.

All of my work is European and I'm on the verge of leaving due to how bad the
internet gets at night.

Throughout the day you've got ExpesssVPM and Shadowsocks but at around 7pm
every night there's a huge crackdown on foreign traffic where even obscure
sites fail to load.

It's probably fine if your work is 9-5 but outside of then the internet for
foreign usage is pretty much unusable that I want to curl up into a ball and
cry most nights.

Baidu and Chinese sites will consistently ping at around 40ms consistently but
at night you're looking at something like 70% packet loss and 2sec pings
outside

~~~
rwmj
Is there some reason why this only happens from 7pm? I would have thought that
the net would either be censored all the time and nothing would ever work, or
else a VPN would work always.

~~~
JoelTheSuperior
If I had to guess, they reduce the censorship during the day to lessen the
effect on businesses. In the evening it's primarily going to be people using
the internet at home, which they'll want to control more tightly.

~~~
srouhaewaehy
Also in 9-5 China time most western people are not online. But in the Chinese
evening Europe wakes up and then slowly also the US comes online leaking into
the Chinese morning.

------
avinium
I can't speak for "founder/tech startup" scene in China, but I did spend 4
years as a manager in the property development arm of a large foreign
retailer.

1) As far as I know, the overpaid expat days are over. A lot of Chinese have
returned from long stints overseas, and they're bringing that experience back
with them. If you want a good position, now you actually need to offer
something unique.

2) It's not impossible, but you will struggle if you can't speak Chinese. It's
funny how this working generation were all forced to learn English at school,
but many of them can barely string a few words together. Depends on your
industry, of course.

3) Most of your business interactions will be unpleasant. Chinese companies
will lie, cheat, steal, and anything they can to sell you down the river. Most
of your time will be spent watching your back and trying not to get screwed.
Same goes for employees.

4) The pollution is horrible, and one of the main reasons why so many people
left at the same time I did.

5) Managing teams can be a nightmare. Chinese employees love empire building,
and their answer to any problem is "you need to give me more people".

6) Decisions are very much top-down, and noone wants to second-guess the boss.
This means companies are constantly lurching from long periods of inaction
(waiting for the CEO/ Chairman to make a decision) to mad sprints/crunch time
(once they make a decision and insist that it be carried out in a ridiculous
timeframe).

7) "Face-time" is very much a thing. Many employees are working 12 hour days,
but most of that is spent on WeChat/mobile games/etc.

In short, would I recommend someone do it? Yes - if you can speak Chinese,
have no kids and can swing a well-paid, time-limited posting (say 2 years)
with your existing company.

It's an eye-opening experience and really makes you value things that you take
for granted in the West.

~~~
vfulco2
Excellent point on #3. I have heard so many reasons for this. I have no idea
how a foreign CEO sleeps at night with all the backroom embezzlement activity
I have heard about. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars in inflated
P.O. going into the wrong aka less efficient, less competent hands because it
can.

------
zukunftsalick
i've been in Hong Kong for 6.5 years already. Worked in small consultancies,
large logistics company, and local startup.

PROS: a) Salary is high, especially if you get to work in
finance/insurance/luxury retail fields b) disposable income (aka savings) is
extremely high as income tax is low, no more than 17%, also, no capital gains
tax! c) great hub to work and explore Asia

CONS: a) IT jobs (development mainly) aren't that exciting as they are mostly
outsourced to cheaper countries so you ended up being a lonely team member in
HK or in management type of jobs. There's always exceptions to this (Credit
Suisse, Lalamove, Chengbao to name a few) b) tech is lagging behind in all
aspects, from testing to devops. For example; Continuous Integration I'm yet
to see a team in mid to large companies effectively having and respecting the
build. This can be seen as an opportunity if you are willing to try. c) You
work longer hours, more stress and generally fewer vacation days

However, if you come here to work as a founder to be closer to Shenzhen
(factories), you also reap the benefits of an established legal system in Hong
Kong. Plenty of highly motivated fresh graduates as well.

~~~
jaxbot
That's a great point about access to Shenzhen from HK. How's the language
barrier been? Have you had to learn both Canto and Mando and read both
simplified and traditional? Is there a distinct advantage to living on one
side of the border over the other?

~~~
zukunftsalick
HK has uncensored and fast internet. The language barrier can be a issue but
English is still widely spoken, even in remote areas of HK like where I live.
I know enough Canto for numbers, food and the rare times I get a taxi. I can't
ready anything though. There's a big question mark as 2047 looms closer, which
is till when China promised to keep HK the way it is now (capitalism,
different currency, open, legal system and so on).

~~~
philsnow
> There's a big question mark as 2047 looms closer, which is till when China
> promised to keep HK the way it is now (capitalism, different currency, open,
> legal system and so on).

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests)

They're not going to wait until 2047. Already many (most?) elementary schools
in HK speak Mandarin instead of Cantonese.

~~~
chaostheory
> Already many (most?) elementary schools in HK speak Mandarin instead of
> Cantonese.

Mandarin is far easier to learn and speak than Cantonese

~~~
philsnow
I don't know what you're getting at. Shouldn't they learn Spanish or something
because it's "easier"?

~~~
chaostheory
It sounded like you lament transition the from Cantonese to Mandarin and you
make it seem like a bad thing, near equivalent to the loss of rights and
freedoms. I don't feel that way.

Sarcasm aside, Spanish is not easier for Chinese people since barely anyone
speaks it in Asia other than nouns in the Philippines. Mandarin is easier
because it's already the primary language for most Chinese people and not just
the mainland. It's also generally easier to speak and understand compared to
Cantonese. Having one standard language is an advantage vs having a million
"dialects".

There are many bad things about the HK handover. Standardizing on Mandarin is
not one of them.

~~~
philsnow
Language attrition is a real thing, and it's terrible.

Erasing the language erases part of the culture that makes Hong Kong unique
and interesting. It's a poverty to do so.

------
captainjustice
I moved from Europe to China to work as a mobile/backend dev.

Pros:

\- Salaries these days in China's big cities are pretty much same or better
than in Europe

\- Income tax and living costs are significantly lower

\- Former two combined: your living standards will increase a lot here.

\- If you live in big cities, life is good and you can live really western
life style

\- Extremely safe and very peaceful. Street crimes and violence are pretty
much nonexistent.

Cons:

\- You really have to take much more responsibility. You might find your dream
company with excellent salary here or you might end up in sweatshop with
shitty salary. General rule: Avoid really local Chinese companies and work for
international ones like Apple, Microsoft, Google, western startups etc.

\- Internet is blocked (can be easily bypassed with VPN though)

\- Chinese culture might be hard to deal with for many foreigners.

\- Competence of Chinese developers and especially managers is really low when
compared to the West

In general: It's a wild and scary ride, but I'd recommend it at least
temporarily.

~~~
abc-xyz
More cons: you're directly supporting a surveillance state that has no regard
for human rights, that is engaged with concentration camps and medical
genocide, and that won't hesitate a second to kick you out of the country and
ban you from entry without telling you why or for how long, likely resulting
in you losing any type of investment (relationship/financial/etc). It doesn't
matter if you've been a good citizen for many years, and you have no way of
appealing the decision. If you end up in a relationship with a Chinese citizen
then you also risk (s)he won't be allowed to go abroad to a Western country
(quite common for those who don't belong to the higher class). You'll also be
denied entry at most hotels that aren't 4-5 star because they don't allow
foreigners, and the same goes for apartments. If you try to stay at a friends
apartment then you risk the landlord calling your friend to say foreigners
arent allowed to stay there. I tend to stay at relatively cheap hotels (often
the cheapest I can find), in China I'd get denied by 9/10, in any other
country I've not once been denied. Trying to rent an apartment in China
without going through an agency that have a "Green Book" will result in
similar odds.

Do yourself a favour and go to any other Asian country where you won't be
supporting modern day Nazis, and where you won't be treated as dirt by the
government. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam, etc. are all great
options that will most likely give you a better experience.

~~~
pmarreck
I'm actually surprised that this is the first comment of this nature I've
encountered on this page.

China is that country that checked out the show Black Mirror and _was actually
inspired_ by the dystopias:

[https://www.inkstonenews.com/china/chinas-13-million-
discred...](https://www.inkstonenews.com/china/chinas-13-million-discredited-
individuals-face-discrimination-thanks-social-credit-system/article/3003319)

------
devy
Ex-Googler Scotty Allen has done exactly the things you mentioned about for a
few years now migrating from California/Seattle to Shenzhen China! He hosts a
great YouTube channel called "Strange Parts"[1], you should check it out!

[1] [https://strangeparts.com/](https://strangeparts.com/)

------
wakkaflokka
I've been considering a move to Japan. My pay would likely be several tens of
thousands of dollars less (still very good, relative to the market but less
than what I could command in a Western market), but it's also an opportunity
to have a very different life experience.

Money vs. experience, it's really tough for me to figure out what's more
important.

~~~
komali2
If we're tossing other countries in the hat, throw in Taiwan. It's like China,
minus the smog, tyranny, and bad internet!

~~~
magduf
The only problem is that they constantly have China talking about how they
want to invade and retake it.

~~~
qlk1123
Meanwhile, a comparable group of people keep spreading the image that unifying
with China cause no harm. What do you say then? Taiwan is a divided society as
always.

The truth is, it just seems that nobody cares about politics here anymore.
Taiwanese media have been so sick that gossip is more than serious news. And
guess what, most of the cable TV channels are Chinese-funded nowadays.

So when you say "The only problem is that they constantly have China talking
about how they want to invade and retake it," you are either lying, or you
have other intentions.

------
max_im
my impression is that unless you're in a super high-demand and high-level role
(ie. Andrew Ng), it's still not that appealing compared to the US. For
engineering roles, you're going to be worked harder and for lower pay than in
the US. As an engineer with a degree in Chinese, I originally planned on
working in China but found much better options stateside. Some of my
colleagues have been successful in getting decent business-side tech jobs in
China, or doing supply side stuff for businesses based outside of China.

~~~
koala_man
>for lower pay

How is it when adjusted for cost of living though?

~~~
zhte415
What adjustment for cost of living?

Assuming living in a Tier-1 where the tech-hubs are (Beijing, Shanghai,
Shenzhen), rents for a 2/3 bedroom apartment somewhat centralish (these are
vastly larger, more populous, and higher density than most American or
European cities) will be at least USD 2000, possibly 4000 depending on taste
(apartment, not house). Pension may need to be privately paid, and tax-band
will be above 40% for anything that can support the above. Purchasing
equivalent consumables like food and eating out western-style will be the same
or double than the cost in most of the USA. If with kids then international
schools are pretty expensive in China, over USD 20k per kid per year.
International driving license not hard but car questionable as the above
Tier-1 cities have restrictions / waiting lists / lotteries on license plates.

Cost-of-living adjustment is only relevant if: no kids, no pension, able to
adapt to eat locally (quite hard for a lot of people especially when hitting
the ground with a full time job), don't mind a 30-60+ minute subway commute
(cheaper rents).

~~~
osdiab
It sounds like you never really tried to integrate, so here’s my experience
living in Shanghai, the most expensive mainland city - eating mostly Chinese
food I would eat stuff like jianbing with chicken and pork for breakfast for
about $0.80, lived in a studio apt in a shikumen building 5 mins walk from
IAPM/陕西南路站 (I would consider, quite central) for about $400/mo that I actually
found on Airbnb, not even using local apt finding services (bc I was there
relatively short term, 4 months, and didn’t want to sign a lease) where I
could have found one even cheaper probably, and was eating out for dinner at
an average cost of maybe $5 to $7 per meal, or around $20-$30 if I wanted to
splurge.

Then again, I took time to learn Mandarin against the advising of expats who
reassured me that I’d never get any good and therefore should just not try, so
maybe that’s where my perspective differs.

Sounds like your problem is trying to replicate western lifestyle in China, if
you do that everyone sniffs the blood and will find ways to rip you off on
everything. Though yeah, schooling probably would be a pretty big expense - no
way I’d send my kid to Chinese schools either.

~~~
nexus2045
+1 to this. If you try to live the same way as you did in the States, without
trying any of the more hole-in-the-wall restaurants, and only go to like,
Pizza Hut (which is considered a decent mid-end fine-dining restaurant), for
sure you will spend 100 RMB+ per meal. But getting buns, dumplings, beef
noodles for 10-30 RMB is in no way a remote possibility, but they definitely
don't look Western.

------
Fanding
As a native Chinese, this is our experience
[https://996.icu/#/en_US](https://996.icu/#/en_US)

------
rodneyzeng
Agree with comments below. Don't do it, unless you are native Chinese and
earned a high degree and would join a key high-tech company working on
research topics, and have high lever relationships with the company.

------
logicchains
I worked in Shanghai for a couple years for an international company. If you
go somewhere with western managers (or Chinese who worked in the west) the
management may not be much more hierarchical than in the west. If you can,
start work at a non-Chinese branch of a company with offices in China and then
transfer, as expat packages are often better than what you'd get if you were
hired as a local. China has something called 996: 9am-9pm, 6 days per week. If
you don't want to work such hours, you'll have fewer options in the tech
industry.

Personally, I think how much you enjoy it will depend on how much you enjoy
Chinese culture. From my experience, expats who stays "expats" forever, only
hang out with other foreigners and don't learn the language, are less
satisfied than people who integrate more, have local friends, learn the
language, and enjoy things like KTV and hotpot. The locals are generally quite
pragmatic and in some sense libertarian, in that many will do what they can to
skirt laws and regulations that get in their way (which at least in past was
perhaps necessary for survival in the corrupt, oppressive conditions there).
So if you like "hustle", you'll like it, but if you think Uber are monsters,
laws are made to be obeyed, or principles trump pragmatism, then you probably
won't have a good time. Also if you're insecure about your appearance you may
not enjoy it there; people can be very frank (like, a colleague might observe
"wow, you've gotten fatter, what did you eat?"), and many job listings require
a photo attached to the resume. Similarly people are more comfortable
mentioning racial stereotypes than Americans are, so if (often well-meaning)
racism bothers you then again, maybe better not to go.

Reasons to work there? The food is amazing and there's so much variety, the
sheer number of people and opportunities is greater than almost anywhere else
due to the population size (more people --> greater absolute number of people
at the tails of any distribution --> there are some really awesome people
there), and it's extremely safe. Things like delivery and transport are
excellent due to economies of scale. There's also a lot of personal freedom
there; the government aside, normal citizens will generally leave you alone
and mind their own business, and won't e.g. call the cops or child protection
when you let your child play alone outside. If you have kids there they're
also much less likely to develop a drug or alcohol problem, should that be a
concern; drug use is much less common there, and although the legal drinking
age is something like 13 there generally isn't a binge drinking problem (maybe
because the kids have too much homework).

------
tanilama
I would say unless you look like Chinese, speak like Chinese, have the
resilience to endure long hours and enjoy adventure, then maybe China isn't
really for you.

Like bamboo ceiling is a thing in US, similar ceiling will be put upon
foreigners in China, unless it is your own company.

------
boltzmannbrain
A couple examples of AI engineers moving to Tokyo (I know it's different) and
sharing some thoughts on Twitter:

\- David Ha w/ Google Brain:
[https://twitter.com/hardmaru](https://twitter.com/hardmaru)

\- Adam Gibson started Skymind in Silicon Valley and moved to Tokyo a few
years back: [https://twitter.com/agibsonccc](https://twitter.com/agibsonccc)

~~~
Scoundreller
At least Japan lets non-permanent residents avoid taxes on income from abroad
(that stays abroad) for the first 5 years. Depends on your home country
whether this lets you avoid their taxes.

In some cases, this can save a lot of tax.

~~~
usmannk
Do you have any information about this? I've been looking into the tax
implications of moving to Japan recently and it's not been easy to sort
through.

~~~
Scoundreller
Just googling. It looks like it was a better situation pre2017 though:

www.mondaq.com/x/561782/tax+authorities/Change+In+Taxation+Of+NonPermanent+Residents

See an accountant/lawyer yada yada.

The bitcoiners that gave up their US citizenship, or otherwise left their home
country and moved to Japan probably came out well tax-wise.

------
rb808
I don't know much, but did see there was a Bloomberg series about Shenzen that
had some Western entrepreneurs in some episodes. It looks awesome tbh.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLmaIbb13GM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLmaIbb13GM)

I think in that episode they were talking about the Hax incubator.
[https://hax.co/](https://hax.co/)

------
NicoJuicy
[https://github.com/996icu/996.ICU/blob/master/en_US.md](https://github.com/996icu/996.ICU/blob/master/en_US.md)

A "996" job refers to an unofficial working pattern (9 am - 9 pm, 6 days a
week) that has been gaining more popularity. Serving a company that encourages
the "996" working pattern usually means working for at least 60 hours a week.

TLDR; A protest going on right now of developers in China. ICU means Intensive
Care Unit.

------
witcherchaos
I am curious, why not japan or South Korea? Or even Taiwan, which google is
now opening offices there?

~~~
jaxbot
Google has offices in Shenzhen, too. And one could debate whether Taiwan is a
country or part of China.

But that aside, the pull seems to be China's incentives and access to local
hardware manufacturing. Not just the idea of living in Asia instead of the
West.

~~~
koala_man
>one could debate whether Taiwan is a country or part of China

At least we can while we're in the west

------
mooreds
I believe Ian Bernstein at Sphero moved to China. Here's the podcast that I
remember him mentioning it in:

[https://www.blubrry.com/execpodcast/20878353/036-from-
zero-t...](https://www.blubrry.com/execpodcast/20878353/036-from-zero-to-
sphero-w-ian-bernstein-cto-sphero/)

------
sparkie
I don't have personal experience living in China. I've followed SerpentZA and
laowhy86 on youtube for many years, who share and film their own experiences
living in southern China. They have a shared channel, ADVChina, where they
ride around on motorcycles and discuss often controversial topics related to
China and the upsides and downsides of being a foreigner there. They have some
great content and a few good documentaries too: Conquering Southern China and
Conquering Northern China.

[1]:[https://www.youtube.com/user/churchillcustoms](https://www.youtube.com/user/churchillcustoms)

------
cepp
NOTE: I wanted to say I spoke pretty good Mandarin before going to China the
first time. I knew what I was getting into and really wanted to be there. If
you appreciate Chinese culture and have studied a bit ignore everyone's
warnings - you'll be fine.

I'm late and most of what I have to say has already been said, but I'm a bit
of a different story, given as I'm Western but _started_ my career in China.
I've worked at a top 50 startup in Shanghai (Video++) and most recently at
Alibaba. Given that I'm 22, and have spent the majority of my
internship/working career in China I'll give my take:

\- Living in China has been better than anywhere I've lived in the US (CT,
NYC, ATL, SF). There's abundant food that's both very good, and very cheap
(both relative and absolute).

\- Not only is the food cheap, but healthy. Very little food is processed
(most is prepared fresh) and everywhere I've worked we've had wonderful meal
services that prepped healthy portions. I lost a ton of weight working there
without even working out or changing my diet!

\- Cell service is really, really good and affordable. However, internet
service is quite bad and no amount of money can remedy this. At Alibaba, we
had fibre laid in Hangzhou so this is the only time I've ever experience
moderately fast connection speeds.

\- GFW etc isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Any reasonable company
already has a proxy or VPN for you to use at work, and there are a number of
good VPNs for personal use. I never felt I missed out on the Western web, only
that it was a bit slower to connect (see above).

\- Technology is abundant and fast-paced. You can rent umbrellas, bikes, phone
batteries, etc. If you can think of it someone probably is working on the
problem and you'll experience things you've never seen before in the US.

\- Pollution and noise are a problem but not terrible. You certainly adjust
and you do have to make some concessions i.e. I never cycled while living in
Shanghai, and sometimes wore a face mask on particularly bad days.

\- Transit is much better. In Shanghai and Shenzhen, the subways are
practically brand new. Not only is there cellular/WIFi connectivity but
they're always on time and people queue very neatly for them. High-speed rail
is ubiquitous and cheap. Didi is objectively worse than Uber though.

\- The work environment is quite different:

1\. Management (where I've worked) has been practically non-existent as
compared to the US. This might be because I do research, but I've never had a
micromanager, or standups, etc.

2\. Daily naps are a thing. Expect to find people taking an hour nap after
eating lunch.

3\. 996 is real. Most people at tech companies will work 9am-9pm 6 days/week.

4\. It is expected you basically live in the office. You'll eat all 3 meals
there, and spend a lot of time with your colleagues. Family time, and going
home for dinner isn't a thing like it is in the West.

I'm sure I've left a lot out, but the above has been my experience in China.
I'm planning on taking a full-time offer that'll put me back in China, and
clearly, am biased as I think the quality of life is better there compared to
the West.

Feel free to ask me any questions.

~~~
yorwba
How did you land your first job? I'd assume that Chinese companies won't
easily take the risk to sponsor a visa for a foreign graduate without relevant
experience, especially if they don't speak the language (edit: I see you added
a note, so feel free to ignore that last part).

~~~
cepp
I have a lot of experience with the visa process...fortunately I had pretty
good Chinese before I began my job search.

I was lucky enough to have help from a pretty notable entrepreneur in Shanghai
(a friend of a friend) who sent my resume around. The interview process is
very slow in China (also recruiting happens at different times than the West)
and so about 4 months and a bunch of interviews later I decided on Video++ in
Shanghai.

Unlike the US the visa process is very straightforward. It works as a points-
based system in a number of categories, where if you hit the point minimum
(overall of 60 I believe) then you get your visa. So once you get an offer
it's not particularly hard for the company, but smaller ones will certainly be
more averse given the time and expertise it takes to produce the documentation
to provide to the consulate.

N.B.: I'd add that a lot of Chinese companies are intrigued (not necessarily
the right word) by foreign candidates. You'll stand out in the pool. So if you
apply through normal means, or even reach out they'll pick you out and talk to
you. It depends a lot on the company and the timing but in my experience, it's
been far easier than doing interviews in the US.

------
kimown
[https://996.icu/#/en_US](https://996.icu/#/en_US)

------
chchyayay
I'm an American that has been working at an American company in China for the
last year. I'm ethnically Chinese and can speak okay (HSK5 - HSK6) Chinese.

Overall, it's been a negative experience but I don't regret at least giving it
a shot.

-Even in multinational companies people are in the office for much longer hours than in the west. However, a lot of that time is on wechat, super long lunches and who knows what. -My compensation is a bit more than half as much I was making in the US but my taxes and living costs are much much lower. I can save almost as much as I used to. If you get a job in China, make sure to really understand your pay structure and tax implication. Your taxes could either be super high or super low depending on the structure. -Pollution is awful. It's really oppressive some days and you just don't want to go outside. -Chinese ability is a must. Basically all my technical discussions are in Chinese. -The 差不多 (good enough) mentality is exhausting sometimes. Even in tier 1 cities, everything is falling apart and looks like crap up close. -I have a mix of foreigner and Chinese friends. When I first came here, I was super insistent on only hanging out with Chinese people to get the "real experience" but realistically as a westerner there is too much of a culture gap. Most Chinese people that I've met are very very focused on work and their income. -Chinese people are pretty nice individually when you get to know them, but it's a different story in public. Cutting in line, shoving their way, watching shows full volume on their phone in the subway, riding their bikes into you, etc... -Phone usage is crazy here. It seems like nearly everyone is glued to their phones at all times. -Dating is really easy (if you're a man). I haven't heard this mentioned in this thread yet, but it is a big reason why a lot of expats move to China. However, I would tread very carefully. I wouldn't recommend starting a serious relationship here unless you're in love with China and are in it for the long haul. Also, casual dating isn't very common here so girls get attached very quickly. If you're planning on just dating around, you'll feel awful eventually unless you're a sociopath. -Red tape everywhere. It seems difficult to do nearly everything, especially if you're a foreigner.

I definitely wouldn't live in China for the long term, but it's been a pretty
interesting experience. Do it for a year or two for the experience and then
GTFO.

------
contingencies
The reason you find it hard to find experiences is that there aren't a lot of
us who stick around.

Across most of China the dominant foreigner is the young visitor, maybe as a
student, maybe teaching English. There are also some old English teaching
hold-outs, married people running F&B businesses, and a few traders (the
imported wine merchant is a classic). Other professionals are rare outside of
major cities and industrial areas, save occasional NGO/intergovernmental
projects, conferences and trade shows. Travelers are pretty rare. To over-
generalize, the type of media these people leave online is usually somewhere
between "OMG squat toilet!" and "found a McDonalds!", to "selfie at
[landmark]" or "[me picking up locals]".

I've done my time: 18 years here, and only hospitalized for salmonella three
times! About half-way through I went back to the west for 2 years, then came
back to China. I've also taken an extra year out. The short answer is the
situation has been changing frequently. It's a lot more expensive now (cost of
living), visa rules have changed greatly, the government is getting more
aggressive at taxing foreigners, there are still few decent jobs for
foreigners (outside of multinationals who generally fill them via internal
transfer from elsewhere), and the domestic economy is in slowdown. It's a
great place for hardware businesses, mostly due to supply chain. The
manufacturing isn't the cheapest anymore. Legals and government are a pain in
the ass.

My advice? If you want the language, you have to stay, and if you're going to
stay, make sure to study a few hundred characters, and study basic Chinese
history. You'll get _far_ more out of your stay with no additional overhead
after covering those basics. If you want a job from someone else, go elsewhere
unless you bring experience and are in to career track stuff like management
consulting, marketing strategy or some other kind of middle management where
international perspective can add some value. If you want to start something
in hardware, it's better to do it off-books and base yourself somewhere cheap
near the border, eg. border-hopping Hong Kong/Shenzhen, or nearby in Vietnam,
Philippines, Thailand, etc.

Running a company here is a real grind. _Everything_ is a hassle: government,
banking, visas, lawyers, logistics, medical, education, internet, business
culture/negotiations, etc. It's not cheap anymore either.

Personally I couldn't live in most of the country due to lack of nature,
pollution, cold winters. I've lived in Shanghai, Qingdao, various parts of
Yunnan, Shenzhen and Zhuhai. Don't get me wrong though, China is fascinating,
represents and allows you to better understand a massive chunk of humanity,
and has some of the best history, nature and food on the planet. Happy to
answer any specific questions.

------
sureaboutthis
My sister-in-law's ex-husband traveled to China for weeks at a time and often.
After their divorce, he moved there permanently. Two things happened.

Right away, he lost a lot of weight because he didn't like the food. Too many
things he would never consider eating but he had to eat something. I don't
know if it's the area he was in but he is still too thin today.

They divorced because he met a Chinese girl and married her. I don't recall
the details--it might be a cultural thing--but it sounds like he was
bamboozled into providing a lot of financial support to her Chinese family.
The impression I get is that he's now stuck and it's a heavy burden.

~~~
mtw
Doesn't really make sense to me. Guy travels to China for weeks and often.
After all this, he discovers that he didn't like the food??

It would like someone traveling to the US for weeks and often, decides to
relocate and then doesn't like the place because he discovers most people
speak English

~~~
sureaboutthis
He discovered he didn't like the food on day one. What's your point? The
question is about experiences moving to China.

------
driverdan
Why would anyone willingly move to an authoritarian dictatorship?

~~~
koala_man
For me it was the money and opportunities. I turned a blind eye to the power
abuse, human rights violations and corruption, and moved to the US anyways.

~~~
jimrhods23
"I turned a blind eye to the power abuse, human rights violations and
corruption"

I'm not sure how you can compare the US, which does have it's problems, but is
one of the least racist (and offers many more opportunities to people that
start with nothing) countries in the world to China, one of the most corrupt
and authoritarian.

In China, for example, you need to include your head shot on your resume and
I've known people that were told the were too fat to work at a company.

If people actually cared, they would look at the gross human rights abuses by
the Chinese government.

You just don't see things like this:

[https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2018/country-
chapters/china...](https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2018/country-
chapters/china-and-tibet)

In the US.

~~~
49531
You don't see reports like that about the US because of US hegemony, and most
things that do come up is usually by the UN and isn't taken seriously. I'm not
saying china is perfect by any means, but things ain't great in the US either.
They just seem normal to us because we're used to it.

~~~
jimrhods23
"You don't see reports like that about the US because of US hegemony"

I've see so many negative news reports about the US, that if it were even 1%
as bad as you say it is, it would be shoved down our throats.

"They just seem normal to us because we're used to it."

When you live outside the US, you will quickly see the amount of poverty and
corruption that just doesn't exist here. It's why I moved back and have no
plan leaving again. Corruption in many countries is normal and accepted. It
happens in the US, but it's certainly not accepted.

Have you seen what the EU is doing lately in terms of the freedom of speech on
the Internet? China has already cracked down considerably and many other
countries are using the same technology to suppress free speech and the EU is
in the process of passing laws that do the same.

"I'm not saying china is perfect by any means,"

'not perfect' is an understatement. In terms of freedom, China is a horrible
place to live. If you have money, it's great. You can buy yourself out of
anything...including prison time.

