
Pre-sale of Cyborg implant for sensing North - secfirstmd
http://www.cyborgnest.net
======
goda90
So this only vibrates when it faces north. I wonder if that is more or less
useful/comfortable/noticeable than the belts[0] or anklets[1] that always have
a vibration in the direction of north.

[0][http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-a-Tactile-
Feedba...](http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-a-Tactile-Feedback-
Compass-Belt/)
[1][https://sensebridge.net/projects/northpaw/](https://sensebridge.net/projects/northpaw/)

~~~
maaaats
Yeah, was hoping it actually would connect to something and give of different
sensations based on direction, which in time the body/mind might recognize.
This seemed more like an art-experiment than something cool.

~~~
lmm
AIUI people who wore the anklet version found they quickly ceased being
conscious of the vibrations per se, and just had a sense of which way was
north. ISTR people learn to see via a camera connected to a pad of electrodes
on their tongue. The brain is pretty good at adapting to sensory input, it
doesn't have to be wired directly to your nerves or anything.

~~~
avian
Years back I wore the Northpaw anklet for a few weeks. I found that it was
certainly possible to determine north with it, but never got from feeling
vibrations to some "sense of which was is north". In fact, I found that it
sometimes took a bit of turning around to get a feel of the direction.

I did not find it a very helpful tool for navigation. In my experience I
orient myself by landmarks and constantly knowing exactly which way is north
was not that useful, even when walking in nature. I did not try it in a
completely unknown place though. Perhaps the most interesting part was how it
corrected the intuitive picture of how my home city is oriented - the anklet
clearly showed that streets that I always associated with straight north-south
and east-west lines were curved and not so perfectly aligned.

~~~
dpark
When I lived in the Bay Area, my mental map was rotated by about 90 degrees
clockwise. It was constantly annoying to be driving a different direction than
I thought, and made actual map use really awkward as I'd search for basic
landmarks for a full minute before my mental map would "reset" to match the
physical map. Since then, I've wondered if something like this would help keep
my mental map more aligned with reality.

I don't think it's a coincidence that I started using GPS navigation heavily
around this same time. My mental mapping in general has degraded a lot since I
started relying on turn-by-turn magic for all non-familiar navigation.

edit: Is there an off-the-shelf solution like the Northpaw that looks less
like a house arrest cuff? I can't imagine wearing something that clunky as a
usual thing. The market demand for this in a sleek package is probably close
to zero, though.

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zxexz
I see no implementation details. How do I know the accuracy of the compass? It
would suck to be passively sent directional information that was even slightly
off. What if I don't calibrate it for a few weeks? What happens if I'm not
standing straight, instead laying down? Does it go off randomly?

Also, I don't see how this qualifies as an implant? In their defense, I can't
obviously see anywhere they call it such; the title is just wrong here.

It's just a device that sits on top of a couple barbell piercings and
vibrates. To be honest, I'm far from impressed. The seemingly new-age-hocus-
pocus-spirituality bullshit branding and wording doesn't help either.

For 250 quid why not get a watch that provides wrist-facing haptic feedback,
maybe attach it via bluetooth to a digital compass?

~~~
CaptSpify
To me, it seems more like a product that's "testing the waters". I agree it's
not actually that impressive, or even an implant, but it's softly treading on
politically/ethically dangerous grounds. Most of the "upgrades" we've seen so
far are for people who have had accidents/damage. This is the first "optional"
off-the-shelf product that I know of.

> I see no implementation details

I am excited that we're moving this direction in our society, but I _strongly_
think this is where we need open-source hardware and software. I _really_
don't like the idea of giving control of my physical self to a company, even
for something as silly as telling me where north is.

~~~
zxexz
I don't really see how this is treading politically/ethically dangerous
grounds, definitely not like those magnetic finger implants people have been
getting for a few years[0] (I would also say that those are probably one of
the first 'off the shelf' upgrades).

Totally agree with you about the need for open-source hardware and software,
especially for devices that become part of our selves! That's one of the many
reasons this device bugs me.

[0] [http://www.wired.com/2006/06/a-sixth-sense-for-a-wired-
world...](http://www.wired.com/2006/06/a-sixth-sense-for-a-wired-world/)

~~~
CaptSpify
> I don't really see how this is treading politically/ethically dangerous
> grounds...

I see it similar to self-driving cars: No matter how good or useful they will
be, there will be people who "don't want no robot driving me around".
Likewise, there will be people who think that implanting ourselves with
computers is an "abomination".

From reading that link, it doesn't sound like those are "smart" devices? I
think that's where we will see people start to have strong opinions about
this.

~~~
zxexz
> From reading that link, it doesn't sound like those are "smart" devices?

You are correct; they are not. The compass device in this story isn't
implanted either, it sits atop some piercings on the chest. No smart device is
being put under the skin here, either.

Food for thought: I met a guy who made an earring that vibrated when he got an
incoming SMS. That was a 'smart' device that sat atop a piercing too...

~~~
CaptSpify
I thought this had some kind of electronics in it though? Maybe I'm mis-
understanding the product.

> I met a guy who made an earring that vibrated when he got an incoming SMS.
> That was a 'smart' device that sat atop a piercing too...

What makes this product interesting to me is that it's "off-the-shelf". The
earing, while cool, is a home-made solution (I'm guessing). And to be clear: I
don't think this product is revolutionary, I just find it interesting that
things have become so small and cheap that we can do this en-mass.

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roel_v
Looks like I'm the only one, but I think this is pretty nifty. Then again I
had someone cut open my hand to shove in an rfid chip 10 years ago, which
wasn't everybody's cup of tea either.

What I'm most worried about is battery life. If I have to recharge every week
(or more), I would give up after a few weeks. Also, what risk is there
snagging this thing on your shirt when you get dressed, or crushing it under a
barbell when working out? Doing any sort of fighting sport would be impossible
too I guess, even if you could take the actual sensor/vibrating thing out.

~~~
na85
Are you Lopht Anonym or however it's spelled?

~~~
seanp2k2
BBC documentary on Lepht Anonym
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/8ca601f1-2d4f-412a-8c94-a...](http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/8ca601f1-2d4f-412a-8c94-ad0b3497ac4e)

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aavotins
As bizarre as it may look, it's still a small step towards something.
Internet-of-Things(buzzword), smart appliances - it's already entering our
lives in some fashion. And so will cybernetics. There has to be trendsetters
that start with simple things. First car wasn't exactly a modern day Tesla,
first airplane did not have peanuts served by beautiful young ladies, first
implants and steps towards cybernetics may seem foolish and toy like, but who
knows where it will lead us in 10 years

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tomp
Amazing (from the _Who we are_ section):

> NEIL HARBISSON

> Cyborg artist with an internet enabled antenna implanted in his skull that
> allows him to perceive colours beyond the visual spectrum and connect to
> satellites to sense colours from space.

~~~
puzzlingcaptcha
It is quite bizzare
[http://static1.squarespace.com/static/55227abee4b04cf2fe2b34...](http://static1.squarespace.com/static/55227abee4b04cf2fe2b34b8/t/56294068e4b0e3e837e3b525/1445544041948/neil-
harbisson-featured.jpg)

~~~
tlrobinson
Interesting, but ridiculously goofy looking. You'd think glasses would be a
better form factor to hold the sensor.

~~~
rdiddly
Unless your goal is ostentation.

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CJefferson
I find the compasses in most phones seem almost useless, as they are confused
by themselves, and other electronic devices which are nearby.

Will this be any more accurate? I would choose a phone specially for a better
compass, as I often find google maps less useful in cities until I figure out
which direction is north.

~~~
tgb
I've used expensive ($1-2 thousand USD) compasses that work really quite well,
particularly if you don't suddenly spin around. So the tech exists, at least
if you ignore power and size restrictions and up the price range a little. I
imagine cellphones don't bother to get a good compass.

External metals are always a problem, though. You can incorporate
accelerometer data which kinda helps to protect against quick transients.

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sgnelson
It should be mentioned that there are multiple "norths." And while it's
generally not a big deal for most uses, if you feel that you need a compass so
bad that you have to implant it into yourself, you probably want the most
accurate system that you can have. I don't see anything about this on their
website. Such as how do you set Magnetic declination? (My guess, you don't).

The earth's magnetic filed is an incredibly complex system. I know this is
more about the "implantability" rather than the compass, but still, something
to keep in mind.

For more information:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_declination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_declination)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_magnetic_field](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_magnetic_field)

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mathgeek
I'm really struggling to see why you'd want to install this in your body
rather than just having it on your person. Is vibration really enhanced by
implanting it?

Also, this won't be you "closer to nature" because humans are not naturally
attuned to physically know when we are facing north.

Perhaps more importantly, how annoying would this be if every time you rolled
over at night, you faced true north and got a nice vibration to wake you up.

~~~
pklausler
I disagree. I almost always know where north is. Just pay a little attention
to shadows.

~~~
mathgeek
That's essentially my point. It's learned rather than instinctual. You were
taught to do that.

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jessaustin
A modicum of awareness suffices to keep anyone informed of the cardinal
directions, in most situations not involving subway travel. This is more about
"Cyborg" than "North".

~~~
rincebrain
While this is trivial for some people, it is extremely difficult to infeasible
for others.

Taking advantage of people's passive integration of sensory input into their
perception of the world around them seems like a reasonable aid for people who
have difficulty with things of this nature.

~~~
mark_chosenberg
You people, some SV quacks could come up with a device that sends you a tweet
when you need to take a shit and you'd still be telling me how it's making the
world a better place.

~~~
maxerickson
Some people do end up with nerve damage that impairs their ability to know
when they need to empty their bowels. What you describe may indeed be useful
for them.

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ape4
Should be called "compAss" and you implant it in your buttocks.

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blisterpeanuts
It seems as though wearables like watches can already incorporate directional
sensors and pretty much anything else that one might imagine.

This product isn't really an implant. A "pierceable", perhaps.

My guess is, this gadget is probably going to appeal mainly to the techno body
modification crowd. In other words, a rather limited market, for now.

Medical applications are where implants will eventually shine: glucose level
monitors for diabetics, for example.

~~~
LiviuBabitz
Hi there, Liviu from Cyborg Nest. Thnx for this! Yes, this is not a full
implant, because at this stage we saw the mind change as the important thing
and less the body change.

This is somehow still a limited market in general, we do hope to do the best
and try to bring technology integration into the mainstream, the world is
ready.

Here for anything else, Cheers!

~~~
patternmaster
Hi Liviu,How does the implant communicate with the user's mind?For example,
does it vibrate like a smartphone?Thanks,Oren

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thinkt4nk
Does anyone else think the device looks extremely large for the application?

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epalmer
Yes. I will let others play with such technology. I feel too connected
already. I don't really want to wire myself up more.

Maybe I'm old fashion. I will be interested in what others say about their
experiences with such devices.

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nathanvanfleet
But it... is just a few piercings and is held on top of your skin?

~~~
mcphage
Yes.

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joshvm
A related story a while ago about magnetic implants - people have had magnets
put in their fingers for a while now:

[http://gizmodo.com/5895555/i-have-a-magnet-implant-in-my-
fin...](http://gizmodo.com/5895555/i-have-a-magnet-implant-in-my-finger)

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LiviuBabitz
Hi, there, I'm Liviu, part of Cyborg Nest, thnx for the time guys, happy to
answer any question!

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realworldview
Please, save us from the cyborgs. I can think of 999999 things deserving more
attention than this.

But wait! I want divining rods implanted in my forearms! I can see the
benefits already.

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DblPlusUngood
I would be much more excited about contraptions that were more obviously
useful and less about providing a special "experience".

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MrBra
> With North Sense, you’re given back an ancient sense of direction

Please go watch "The Embrace of the Serpent" right now.

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lucb1e
I read about someone who wore a belt with a bunch of vibration motors, where
the one that pointed north would vibrate. Lots more space for battery life and
accuracy. From what I heard he developed an extremely good sense of direction
in a very short time.

Doesn't need to be an implant!

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secfirstmd
I know that Liviu Babitz the founder of CyborgNest is on HN now. He should be
answering your questions soon!

[https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=LiviuBabitz](https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=LiviuBabitz)

~~~
kordless
Let me just be the first to say that I'm not stuffing anything in my body that
was created by someone who's identity isn't firmly nailed down. I'm not
against anonymity by any means, but infrastructure needs to be 99.999%
trustworthy and transparent.

> Liviu was the COO of Videre est Credere, featured in the WIRED as 'Carlos',
> due to security restrictions at the time the article was published.

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witty_username
Why not just use your smartphone? Or even just look at which direction the sun
is.

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fimdomeio
Don't people know most of the time to what direction is north? you just look
at the sun imagine it's trajectory and you have enough information for 90% of
the use cases. Or stars...

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pklausler
Might be handy if it's cloudy, but otherwise it's easier to look at shadows in
daytime and the moon and stars at night.

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nogridbag
I can only imagine what it would be like trying to explain this implant to the
nice folks at the airport security checkpoints!

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roosterjm2k2
Their about section looks... well, they just look like some real interesting
people, I tell you hwhat...

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LiviuBabitz
Thnx, pleasure meeting you, I'm Liviu from Cyborg Nest. We are a bunch of very
dedicated people to this!

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nxzero
Telepathy is already possible.

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Aelinsaar
This seems... incredibly silly. Not crazy or wrong, just silly. This feels
like a child walking out of a movie theater like a cowboy, because they just
saw a western.

I don't want an implant to achieve something I can manage with a needle and a
bowl of water.

~~~
seren
Maybe if you are blind, this could be helpful to not get lost and get a sense
of the direction you are facing. But I guess there are already less invasive
solutions (and other sensory inputs like the sun on your skin).

~~~
Aelinsaar
Or just a wearable device, but I guess that has drawbacks too.

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draugadrotten
This "implant" is pretty much a wearable device since it is in contact with
skin but is fully outside the body.

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blisterpeanuts
Usually wearables refer to things you can easily take off, like a watch. This
thing looks pretty permanent -- though maybe it flips open like an earring to
be removed and serviced?

~~~
bjterry
The barbell piercing that it anchors to is permanent, but I think the device
itself has to be removed to charge.

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glibgil
When I saw the video and the team photos all I could think of is, "Turtley
werth it" [http://www.cc.com/video-clips/4ei34y/kroll-show-rich-
dicks--...](http://www.cc.com/video-clips/4ei34y/kroll-show-rich-dicks---the-
nameless)

