
Man victim of 'vomit fraud,' and his wife found the video to prove it - filmgirlcw
http://www.wday.com/news/4484702-mcfeely-west-fargo-man-victim-vomit-fraud-and-his-wife-found-video-prove-it
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cameldrv
My question is why there isn't a $1000 "false vomit report investigation fee"
that is paid from the driver to the passenger? If the driver has to clean his
car, they get $150, but if the passenger has to go pull security footage from
a gas station, they get nothing? Lyft also needs to make clear that if there
is a clear cut case like this one that the driver is permanently gone from the
Lyft platform.

~~~
rasz
Because mere existence of such a thing would confirm existence of "vomit
fraud" in the first place. There is no fraud according to Uber and Lyft, just
maybe minor misunderstandings/clerical errors.

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filmgirlcw
See previous discussion [1]. What's interesting about this case is that the
customer was able to prove what happened, and Lyft still refused to fully
engage until the press was involved, and even then, refused to answer direct
questions about how it investigates fraud cases and what penalties will be
assessed against drivers who do this.

My own suggestion of a solution (in the short-term) remains to alert
passengers that they are getting charged a fee for making a mess in the car
before the trip concludes, within the app. It's possible this could lead to
confrontation between drivers and passengers, but taxi cabs do this every
single day. Moreover, I have to think very few Uber/Lyft drivers would be
brazen enough to assess a charge when no damage had been done. At the very
least, it would allow a passenger the opportunity to take their own photo and
video before exiting the car.

[1]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17587952](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17587952)

~~~
maerF0x0
Car2GO has a similar setup. You self rate the condition of the car before you
accept it (ie, when you unlock it and get in) and after you're done.

If you think the car is damaged they know it likely was the previous renter.
It should be the same story when you get in a Lyft. "Is it clean enough?" and
"Did you leave it dirty?" are your feedback to the company about how you think
the place was left. Maybe add in photographic evidence...

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jethro_tell
I Shouldn't be the users responsibility. It should be part of the check out
process for the driver, drop off XXXX, did the ride involve damage to the car?
Please add pictures. tag them with the gps and time. If the rider doesn't
complain that he got into a car with vomit, and the driver takes the picture
at the location of the drop off before closing out the ride fully, then it's
much harder to fake.

~~~
dTal
It's trivial to fake. You can tag any picture with any time and GPS
coordinates you want.

~~~
jethro_tell
YOU can, a driver who is taking the picture through the app is going to have
difficulty modifying it, or even uploading a picture. Was there damage? ->
load the camera -> upload the file.

Don't ask for pictures to be uploaded, just ask if there was damage before the
next ride can be accepted, and if there was ask for pictures right there,
right then. Flag anything within 10 minutes of the end of the ride as
suspicious and that will cut out 99 percent of this.

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westicle
"The police view it as a civil matter, but could they look at it differently?
Is there an ordinance that could be passed locally?"

This is more an issue with lazy or unmotivated policing rather than need for
more and more specific laws. The driver is acting dishonestly to defraud the
passenger of money. There are numerous statutes regulating fraudulent criminal
conduct ranging from street scams to Bernie Madoff.

The fact there is a private contract between them regulating their commercial
transaction does not obviate the need for both parties to comply with criminal
law.

I wonder why the reporter did not seek any input from anyone legally trained.
Relying on the police, who have no incentive to overly burden themselves with
non-revenue generating police work, to inform the public on whether something
is criminal or not is half-assed journalism.

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JumpCrisscross
Lyft changed their policy to prohibit refunding crap rides. (Recently had a
driver on their phone the entire ride, blowing through red lights; no material
response from support.) Flipped me from a loyalist to (a) logging out of my
account and (b) reporting their lawbreaking drivers to New York’s TLC.

~~~
gamblor956
Had a Lyft driver that was high as a kite when she started driving. Proceeded
to go down the wrong freeway and ignore my directions on how to get back on
track. Decided to end the ride in front of a homeless camp.

I called Lyft to complain. The driver claimed that I assaulted her. Despite
the GPS records, eyewitnesses, and police report to the contrary, Lyft sided
with her.

Switched to Uber immediately, and charged back every ride I'd ever taken with
Lyft.

~~~
jackvalentine
> charged back every ride I'd ever taken with Lyft.

Uhh. That's not okay.

~~~
gamblor956
I could have sued them for quite a bit more than the value of the rides I
charged back.

Lawyer estimated roughly $100k for false imprisonment, IIED and slander, not
including punitive damages due to those being intentional torts. However, the
case would have taken 5 years in the California court system and being a party
to litigation can affect your credit quite dramatically, so I passed.

~~~
jackvalentine
> I could have sued them for quite a bit more than the value of the rides I
> charged back.

Then you should have done that, rather than fraudulently requesting
chargebacks.

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rectang
The amount of money that drivers make on "vomit fraud" is going to be
miniscule before the rideshare service, which is heavily incentivized to
prevent it, flags and decommissions them.

Meanwhile, as a driver, you have to deal with someone vomiting in your car
every few hundred rides. If it happens, you're done for the shift, and there's
no making up for those lost hours.

Good grief, can it suck any worse to be a driver? Public outrage is focused on
the exceptional case and ignores the common case.

~~~
jackson1way
As a passanger, I‘m expecting a ride to my destination. There are chances the
driver will run into an accident, speed, drive recklessly etc. The car could
be dirty or smelly, broken or old. As a passanger, I do not expect to be a
victim of fraud or any other criminal act committed by the driver towards me.

As a driver, my expectation from the passanger is that he will get in the car,
do some small talk and get out of the car as soon as we arrive. There are
chances that the passanger is sick, dirty, smelly, unpolite, unfriendly,
noisy, drunk. With that comes the risk that he might mess up your car,
especially if he is sick or drunk.

So I think, both, the driver and the passanger know exactly what they are
getting into. No need for a „oh the poor taxi drivers!!“

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kevin_b_er
Looks like frequently recording one's life is becoming more and more
important. Note here how there's video evidence of pure fraud.

The "terms of service" are there to absolve a corporation of fraud and what
would otherwise be criminal acts by virtue of contracts. This is yet another
example of how one-sided contracts of adhesion are in this country.

~~~
tluyben2
Why is it not mandatory for the driver to have a dash cam on all the time and
if they want to charge for something like this they _must_ have a video of it?

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ghostbrainalpha
I wonder how often the driver had been able to get away with this.

I assume there is an accepted normal rate of passengers vomiting. Maybe
something like ~5% for midnight to 6:00am rides.

If a driver goes significantly over that rate, Lyft should be able to spot
that something is up way before it gets to tracking down security footage.

~~~
jessaustin
They have a lot of drivers. Over the whole group, _someone_ is going to get
vomit five nights in a row.

~~~
sbinthree
Not hard to flag it for a human analyst to follow them all up in the name of
good service.

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noncoml
While the cases of fraud are despicable, I think being reimbursed only $150
for somebody vomiting in your car is far too little. Your car will be pretty
much similar to "The Smelly Car" episode of Seinfeld once it has been puked
into.

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protomyth
_Lyft is a California company doing business in North Dakota, in Fargo and
West Fargo. Who is going to step in and tell them to knock this off?_

Well, I would imagine if it gets picked up nationally then some local
politician or more probably the local DA. Someone will want to enhance their
political career. A lot of these folks talk to others in their same positions
in other communities, so it might end up being one of those waves. Lack of
proper customer relations could come back and bite when dealing with the
locals.

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gruez
IANAL, but isn't this technically wire fraud? I'm sure a few indictments from
the feds will scare them into not committing a felony.

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scarface74
If I had the means and inclination, I might have gone through the trouble of
proving my innocence. But more than likely, I would have emailed Lyft and once
I didn’t get a satisfactory response disputed the charge with my credit card
company. The few times I have disputed a charge, it was painless.

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thefourthchime
Guess I'll be taking a picture when I get home late from now on.

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hamitron
Honestly, just dispute the transaction with your bank. Why bother dealing with
the company directly?

~~~
thinkythought
Like amazon et al, any chargeback ever results in a permanent lifetime ban
with no appeal from these services

~~~
hamitron
I work in chargebacks. That isn't true.

