
Ask HN: Did your life as a parent affected your life as a developer? - johngorse
I have a full time job as full stack developer, wife and 2 kids. I commute every day 1 hour in each direction. On a work day I woke up at 5:30 am, wash, dress and jump in a car at 6:00 am, so that I can be at work at 7:00 am. I usually go home at 3:00 pm and if there is no traffic jam I am at home at 4:00 pm. I eat something, change clothes, clock says 5 pm and I try to spend some quality time with my wife and kids. Kids go to bed at 8 pm and at 9 pm I am exhausted as hell, and I fell to bed. And this repeats every work week.<p>On weekends I barely have time for my side projects (one is familyokjobs.com, which I created over several weekends when wife and kids were sleeping), because there is always something to do around the house. What I&#x27;m trying to say: where do you take time for your side projects or studying new technologies?
======
linkregister
As your kids get older, and especially when they enter school, a large part of
the evening will be spent by them doing homework. Their weekends will be spent
more with friends and doing activities (organized sports, etc). You'll have
more time to yourself.

In the meantime, enjoy your family time because your kids won't always want to
spend all their free time with you (they'll have friends and hobbies to
compete with you).

Make sure to exercise. So many on HN experience health problems that originate
from inadequate exercise. 30 minutes per day should be sufficient.

8 1/2 hours of sleep per night seems to be an hour longer than what I would
expect would be necessary, but if you're getting woken up by a baby then that
is good time budgeting.

~~~
ashark
Note that 30 minutes/day is a much bigger commitment for a parent of young
kids than other people. I've run the numbers in posts on here before, but the
TL;DR is that you've got ~28 hrs of kid-free (and non-work/commute) time a
week without cutting into sleep, but _before_ taking out unavoidable
activities (prepping for the next day, cleaning, spouse time) that's likely to
eat at least half of it. So 30min/day is like 25% of your kinda-halfway-free
time if you're sleeping 8hrs, _unless_ you get creative and multi-task with it
somehow—maybe you go running with friends so you get some face-time with them
while exercising, for instance, though not everyone has that particular option
for various reasons. And of course you can always take it out of kid-time, say
by "working" 30 minutes longer but taking a workout break during the day.

There's a reason parents tend to get fatter, aside from just aging. :-/

~~~
vanderreeah
Agree. Have a job, kid, and a need to eat, relax at least for an hour in the
evening, and sleep. 30 mins exercise a day (which incl. prep and travel to
place of exercise could easily turn to an hour) seems as luxurious to me as
having a private chauffeur.

~~~
linkregister
Your schedule sounds more like mine. 28 hours of leisure per week? That's
unreal!

------
kemiller2002
Having kids taught me how to use every spare minute I have. I'm a single
parent with 2 kids, so I have no back up to take care of them if I am busy
with something else. Half of my free time is spent with my kids, so I have to
make everything else count. My process looks a little chaotic, but I carefully
plan out what I'm going to do, and when I need to do it by. My entire day is
on a mental schedule. Unless I deliberately want to, I waste very little in
"screwing around." Everything is mentally prioritized and evaluated.

Having kids emphasized what I already learned in the food industry, don't do
silly extraneous tasks ever, and do things as fast as possible without
compromising what I do. I rarely wait and do one thing at a time when I'm
trying to get stuff done. For example, I'm normally cooking one meal and
prepping the kids lunch at the same time.

Unless I absolutely need a break, I don't watch T.V. idly. It maybe in the
background, but I'm normally only half paying attention. I turn on CC so I can
read the text, and half listen. Watch videos to learn something? You can read
(I've heard 4 times) faster than watching a video, so I almost always take
that route. The one thing I don't do is listen to podcasts in the car. That is
reserved for NPR to catch up on world news.

Most of the time when people want to meet dealing with business, I demand an
agenda, then I decide if it's worth it. I've been known to be ruthless at work
with this. I focus my life around things like this.

~~~
ryandrake
Yes, it teaches you to manage your precious time to the second, but it also
teaches you how to effectively get things done when you only have sparse 15-30
minute chunks rather than long stretches of time to concentrate. It used to
take me 30 minutes just to "get in the zone." Keep that up and you'll never
get anything done as a parent. You need to be able to snap yourself into the
zone in 30 seconds, get something accomplished, and then go deal with throw-
up.

Your life becomes interrupt-driven rather than batch processes. Even if you
have the same quantity of time (you won't), you need to live differently to
handle it.

~~~
wj
I still struggle with this. Anything for me that needs creativity or critical
thinking (programming and writing mostly) really suffers with the
interruptions.

~~~
kemiller2002
Steven King wrote something that really made me focus on changing this. He
essentially said that the difference between an amateur and a professional
writer is that the professional write even when not in the mood. That made me
think a lot about how I write code etc. and how I can use my free time even
when I don't want to when I have to absolutely get something done.

------
bryarcanium
My partner and I pretend we're divorced.

We noticed before we had our first that our friends who were divorced with
kids actually got out once in a while, because they shared custody. So we have
what amounts to an oncall schedule - certain days I'm 100% in charge of kiddo,
certain days he is. There's some exceptions for commute stuff - daycare is
closer to my work- but this means you _sleep in_ on your weekend day off, and
you can schedule nights to game and hang out with friends, etc.

Most of the time we aren't out; kiddo is fun. But the difference between
hanging out with a kid and being in charge of them getting their needs met is
pretty significant.

Re: commute, I'm hauling the kiddo in with me on my bicycle, dropping her off
at daycare, and heading to my work. It's exercise and commute together and I
_love_ it. It's about 40 minutes one way, so I have to be careful about not
over training, but it's awesome otherwise.

Edit: We also do side projects on our off nights. And we pay people to
clean/do the yard work, which also does a lot for free time.

~~~
mixmastamyk
I've looked longingly at divorced folks myself, with every other week off.

~~~
bbcbasic
More expenses though.

~~~
bryarcanium
Well, divorced _roommates_ ;)

------
nosequel
Same boat. Here's me:

    
    
      1. My side project is my life.  I don't use the computer at all outside of work. I play with the kids, do stuff around the house, spend time with my wife. 
      2. I moved to being remote full time after killing myself commuting in SoCal.  My enjoyment of life has increased tremendously. 
      3. Like others have said, I don't waste any time.  I read Twitter/HN when I'm taking a 15 break in the morning and in the afternoon, but otherwise I work when at work. 
      4. I pick up new technologies while at work.  Part of why we are paid so much is we have to stay on top of what is the latest and greatest best practices.  This is like Doctors reading medical journals for their particular area of practice. 
    

Overall, you don't get to do your kids over again. If you miss something it is
gone. There is no undo/redo cycle. Everything else for me is secondary.

------
mystique
This is my story basically for many years. I've found having side project is
even tougher as a mom than a dad (SO has been better at carving time for
himself than me).

What I've found works is to be consistently working on same side project over
time, dedicate some me-time and set small goals. Instead of trying too many
new things, stick to same side project for months at a time. Also "book" a few
hours every 2-3 weeks for myself and go work at a Starbucks instead of staying
home. Finally set small achievable goals; what I would want to do in 1 day,
spread that over a month.

------
meheleventyone
Full time working with two young kids aged nine months and three years. I'm
lucky my commute is a fifteen minute walk. Most days I wake up between 6-7
depending on the youngest. Our kindergarten is right next door so I drop the
eldest there on the way to work. Usually work 0820-1620. Pick up the eldest on
the way home. Then cook or watch the kids whilst my partner cooks. Hopefully
both kids are in bed and asleep by 2030-2100. Spend an hour chilling with my
partner then bed.

I've only really managed side projects during my paternity leave whilst the
baby was sleeping or during a period of gardening leave. That's more than
prior to kids as I spent most of my free time climbing, skiing and going out.
We also rebuilt our house last winter and finished the interior off over the
past year. This spring/summer my 'side project' is a lot of manual labour
sorting out our garden.

I've always learnt new stuff at work and have been lucky enough to get work
that has been pretty new and different each time which obviously helps a lot.

------
unfocused
I'm like you - full time job, wife (who also works full time), 2 kids under
age of 6. I too am tired some nights but some things have changed (for the
better):

1\. Changed jobs to a balanced work/life job. 2\. No longer a developer, but
still in IT. 3\. 12 minute walking commute (no buses, cars, or bikes) 4\.
Moved downtown - smaller house than most people, but as noted in #3, walking
commute to pretty much everything. 5\. My side projects are my kids, as they
are very young and are not independent by any means. I've dabbled in tiny
project which was python to grab Scotch prices. But that was 6 hours. So yeah,
not much time. Also, my "heritage" home is a bottomless pit of maintenance,
but kind of fun as the kids get involved.

I would say either you work remote, or work from home 1 day a week if you
really like your current job. Is it possible to find a closer job? You can
gain at least 1.5 to 2 hours hours a day right there.

~~~
johngorse
It is possible to find a closer job, but I kinda like it here where I am. I
have an awesome team mates. I was thinking about remote job, but this is
another story, because the lack of personal contact changes you I guess. While
I love my wife and my two kids (son - 2 years old, daughter - 5 months) I
guess it is healthy to change environment from time to time.

~~~
unfocused
If you like your job, then see if you can work from home just 1 day a week.
Start small.

I'm actually the "boss" where I work and I allow one of my employees to work
wed and thurs from home.

So long as they do good work, I could care less where they are. So perhaps try
telling your boss that you have thought of all the details like meetings,
picking a quiet day when its not busy, or telling them that you will guarantee
you will be reachable at all times. Sometimes managers that are old school
need to be sold on how you will manage their worst fear - doing nothing at
home.

------
kerrsclyde
You have to accept that your lifestyle is going to change. It really kicked in
with me when my kids started school, the evenings became shorter and now with
them as teenagers there is basically no time between them going to bed and me
turning in.

I cut down my workload dramatically to spend more time with them and I don't
regret it for a minute, they grow up so fast. I look at pictures only taken a
couple of years ago and the change in them is vast.

You might look to commute less but working at home just didn't work for me,
kids get home at 3:30pm and forget trying to concentrate after that. I can
still find time in the mornings before they get up at 7:30 if I need it.

Enjoy the ride, for me (and we're all different) my family is more important
than any side project.

------
vbsteven
Try to get rid of the commute. That's two wasted hours every day.

I have a similar 1hour commute but I only need to be in the office 1 day a
week. On the other 4 days I get up at the same time (5:30-6:00am) and I work
on my side projects until 8am when I bring my daughter to school and my home-
work day starts.

~~~
pavel_lishin
> _Try to get rid of the commute. That 's two wasted hours every day._

I'm not OP, but I have a ~45 minute commute in New York city on the subway.
It's one of the places where I can actually relax, read a book, listen to a
podcast, and _nobody needs me for anything_.

(I'd loathe it if I had to drive, though.)

~~~
mixmastamyk
Cool, so your time isn't wasted, it is "me" time.

The original poster is not so lucky.

------
ddorian43
1\. Be good. 2. Be good enough to remote. 3. Move to someplace cheap (or be
born there). 4. Work remote part-time while making a killing at the same
time(compared to local). 5. Profit time with your new/current procured family.

My plan basically. Only step 5 to go.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Seconded!

------
roryisok
Like a few others here, I also work remote. Zero commute makes a big big
difference. It means you can step away from work and instantly be at home. It
also means you can see the wife and kids during coffee breaks. Also, instead
of sitting in a canteen for your lunch hour you can spend it with the family.
In my case, I'm lucky enough to live close to the sea so when the weather is
good we can spend lunch on the beach.

I work on side projects in the evenings, and at the weekends. Having kids has
impacted free-time, as it always will. In order to maximise productive time, I
gave up video-games entirely.

------
up_and_up
So, I have 3 kids, 8,6, and 3.

> I commute every day 1 hour in each direction.

I know some people are stuck in this situation but I would really recommend
finding something closer or getting a fully remote job.

I have had a 100% remote job for the past 5 years and it has made all the
difference. I wake up, get the kids breakfast and then head over to the
standing desk and get to work. Since we homeschool I always eat lunch and
dinner with my kids. Working remotely is the only way this would be possible.

> where do you take time for your side projects or studying new technologies

I do this mainly on the job now, currently learning/implementing Terraform and
studying for AWS exams. Take on new challenges at work etc. I also freelance,
where I am exposed new tech and challenges.

> full stack developer

There are tons of remote jobs for that skillset, I really encourage you to
look elsewhere.

------
ashark
I have three young kids. My experience has been:

1) sleep (a normal amount, not extra)

2) being an OK parent

3) a house that is almost always fairly clean

4) side projects/learning

5) friends

6) a relationship with your partner/spouse that's doing OK

7) actual solo leisure time

Pick _four_. :-/

[EDIT] Oh, and "staying halfway in shape" comes out of your "actual solo
leisure time" hours or _possibly_ "friends" hours if you have the right kind
of friends for that.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Did you list those in order of importance, or just randomly?

Because my rank would be (2), (6), (1) and (7) - and (6) and (1) are damn
close, since we both need (1) to maintain (6).

~~~
ashark
No particular order. I've mostly settled into 2,5,6,7.

I can't seem to give up 7 for 1 without hating life, even though going low-
sleep sucks a ton. It'd be sweet if we could afford housekeeping to take care
of 3, but oh well.

These aren't perfectly identical categories anyway, of course. You can sneak
an hour or two worth of 7 in per week depending on what you do, 15 minutes
here, 10 there, even if you don't make any other time for it, but doing that
with 4 is nearly impossible, and the _quality_ or _benefit_ of any of the
activities will tend to be lower that way (you definitely do a fair amount of
cleaning no matter what, for instance, though maybe not enough to achieve 3).

Dedicated, significant chunks of time with all the pieces in place for the
various activities are what's hard to come by, and what forces _in general_
picking some of them over the others. You just gotta let some stuff go or
you'll go insane trying to keep up with it all, and failing to do so anyway.

------
souprock
I have 10 kids, soon to be 11, and I homeschool.

So... that's how open source projects go to die, and the major reason why I no
longer maintain procps. This was painful, but family comes first.

The concept of "quality time" is broken. You can't squeeze life into a few
spare moments here and there, and you mostly can't schedule it. You have to
live it, being there for the skinned knees that can happen at any moment.
There is no substitute for being available.

Side projects are limited to things that can be done with kids. That changes
as they grow.

Studying new technology is something I can do at work. I help invent it
actually, and I dig into a wide variety of things, so that's fine. Maybe it is
different for web developers; ouch if that is the case. I do low-level stuff.

A big difference is that I don't live or work in a "proper" city and haven't
since I got married. I tend to live in the sort of place that is borderline
big enough for a commercial airport, with perhaps 33,000 to 100,000 people at
a density that is well below anything in the Bay Area. This lets me afford to
live near work, and it means that there is little traffic. By car, my worst
1-way commute was 15 minutes. It's now about 3 minutes.

Compared to your hour-long commute, that 3 minutes is pretty much a rounding
error. It's like I get an extra 10 hours of life per week. You have at most 4
hours for family on weekdays. Imagine if you had 6 hours instead.

I get that big-city life has more entertainment, but you don't seem to have
time to take advantage of it.

~~~
laughfactory
Love everything about this answer. I like how you live. Well done!

------
indytechcook
The phrase "Having kids changes everything" is true.

I have 3 kids (8, 4 and 2). When I reflect on the past 8 years my most
enjoyable experiences have been first with the kids, wife and friends.

I took steps to work from home after my first child was born. This has allowed
me to work at a high demand start up and spend quality time with my family.
Now I get to take "wrestle breaks." Best 20 minutes of my day.

Kids coupled with dieing grandparents help you to think about the big picture.
I will not be one of those people on their deathbed wishing I spent more time
with my family. Know what you have before you lose it.

------
abeyer
I know that everyone's situation is different, but I really don't get people
who accept that kind of commute time unless it's something you _want_ or you
have no other options. (I know people who like to drive and get their only
"alone time" in the car on the commute, so it works for them, but they tend to
be the exception.)

If you value your time at $100/hr (probably low end of the spectrum for a
skilled dev in most of the US), that comes to an opportunity cost of
$4,000/month you're losing to driving back and forth. And that doesn't even
start to account for the actual costs of driving, nor the mental energy of
dealing with doing it. (I want to bang my head against the steering wheel
after 30 mins in traffic, and then spend at least twice as long decompressing
and not productive after that.)

I know that's very different than $4k cash for most people, but it's worth
thinking about

~~~
shados
And now you know why rent in big cities around tech hubs is so crazy high:
because its worth it (and building more housing will just attract more people)

~~~
abeyer
Yeah, personally I gladly suck it up and pay to live walking distance to most
of where I need to go.

Unfortunately the impact of the people willing to do that on other people who
can't earn $100/hr is pretty awful. I suspect in the long term that is going
to end up gutting cities that don't find some way of dealing with it.

------
watty
Having kids greatly reduced my free-time to work on side projects (or actual
work). Getting married reduced my ability to move anywhere anytime or take
risks freely. Buying a house with endless projects has also reduced my free
time. If I was single and without children I'd probably be making more money
at a different company. But I wouldn't be as happy.

Every choice that reduces your time spent developing affects your life as a
developer. It doesn't mean you can't be a rockstar as a single dad with 5 kids
but it may be harder. Ultimately you have to balance things that make you
happy and work.

------
jarpschop
Sorry for asking the pessimistic question, by no means do i intend to be a
troll, but don't you think that it is irresponsible bringing children in to a
world where you can't even take the free evenings after working 8+ hours and
giving your best? (because you need to "stay competitive or something"). The
developer culture of living to work (instead of the other way around) and
being totally cool about it is something that still surprises me. I understand
that you like coding (me too), but not having time to do anything else (not
even raise a kid, watching a movie, reading a book or just resting) appears to
you as something completely normal. I simply don't get that ideology (i mean,
is like a type of slavery where the slave's hobby is precisely and just what
he/she does for work). I say it as someone studying computer engineering.

~~~
trevyn
In my experience, if you're a good engineer, it is fairly straightforward to
work to live. It is not particularly challenging.

The problem is that you are, over time, shown powerful tools and processes
capable of perceptibly increasing the rate of human technological progress.
For many people, pursuing this goal is irresistible, and this is when you
transition to living to work -- when you know that you are personally capable
of moving humanity forward.

~~~
mangodrunk
I can see the allure in that, but perhaps this is a false vision used to
exploit people, similar to the "American Dream". Are you sure you're moving
humanity forward? I can see those working in medicine, food, etc. helping
people, but many of this technology is aimed at purposes that are detrimental
to humans or at best conveniences that still contribute to climate change.

~~~
trevyn
I'm a big Star Trek fan. The alien races in Star Trek are metaphors for
different factions of Homo sapiens.

Given that context, I view Star Trek as a reasonably plausible view of future
humanity. The Star Trek universe certainly has problems, and is regularly
threatened with existential crises. There are many new terrible things in it,
but there are also many new beautiful things. It's sort of a greatly expanded
version of life as it is today; the inhabited universe is larger, more
diverse, and as a direct result, there are, on the whole, more options and
more possibilities.

So here's the question: Given the option, would you choose to live in today's
universe, or the Star Trek universe?

You don't get to choose which individual you are in either scenario, it's a
dice roll. You could end up a North Korean peasant or an Albert Einstein (or
pick your own role model). You could end up an admired Federation leader or a
Borg drone.

But, if you could choose the present day or the Star Trek universe, which
would it be?

~~~
mangodrunk
I'm also a huge Star Trek fan, and I think that would be a very interesting
world to live in. How about we get there without destroying the planet and
working so much?

------
snadal
Father of two (aged 4 and 5) and running an small company of 14 developers.

Before they were born, I always reserved some tasks for weekends, and spend
several hours coding at night during workdays.

It took me almost three years to realise that this was absolutely not
compatible with family. I used to "steal" sleep time instead of family time,
so I ended sleeping between 2 and 4 hours a day. Even productivity was good, I
was always tired and in bad mood.

While it was really difficult to change long term habits, I work now from 9.00
to 17.30 with 15 minutes commute time, I dedicate most of my non working time
to my kids and wife, and I am now a extremely happy person, and also the
people closer to me :)

And productivity has grown because I can focus on the really important things,
both at home and at work.

------
gallamine
My family is my side-project, and I have to work daily to be content with
that.

Which is to say, I give up side-projects in favor of them.

------
n1vz3r
I have two kids, one 6 years old, and another 4 months old. Since I cannot
spend more time in the office, I'm required to be more productive. I
discovered "less is more" principle this way - by putting in less time, I
actually achieve more. Also, at home, ususally I have at most one hour to
spend coding my semi-hobby project. And this way, I discovered that it can be
a very productive hour. Another upside of having constantly inquiring "explain
me like I'm five"-type son is that content of my brain's RAM is instantly
swapped out several minutes after I pick him at kindergarten. Bottom line: I
rest better; spend less time; I'm more productive. (and earn more money)

------
achou
I'm a founder looking for ways to make my next startup family-friendly. I'm a
parent of two sons in SF so I know what it's like. A grab bag of ideas so far:

\- Allow parents to bring babies to work (0-6mo)

\- Locate in suburbs where parents live instead of in the city

\- Hire remote employees who work from home

\- Establish a culture of taking an office break around 4-5pm then resume at
8pm for a couple hours

\- Do social events during the day instead of after hours

\- Suspend email delivery certain hours, such as 4-8pm, and on weekends until
Sunday afternoon

\- Same as above for real-time chat for most employees (some exceptions for
things like sales)

\- As an exception to above, have on-call schedules planned way in advance

\- Flexibility on holidays to help synchronize with school schedules

Other thoughts?

~~~
laythea
"bring babies to work" \- are you serious? do you have children?

~~~
achou
Yes, I do have children. I got the idea from this article:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/20/opinion/sunday/take-
your-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/20/opinion/sunday/take-your-baby-to-
work.html)

Bringing babies to work definitely has issues, but also benefits.

------
batter
When you have no time for your family they become someone's else side/main
project. Sometimes it's good. But mostly - not. That's why i don't have side
projects besides my family.

------
feistypharit
I moved from full-time to stay at home dad with some consulting and side
projects on the side. Family is #1, everything else is secondary. However,
wife works, is well paid, and is a national expert in her field. We're In the
Midwest.

Kids are essentially another full time job, with varied and unpredictable
overtime.

------
itsoggy
I have children with communication and social issues (ASD).

My side projects have changed from web apps things to:

Learning makaton.

Making and laminating pictures (PECS) so my youngest can use them to
communicate.

Attending various classes relating to ASD.

Fixing IT and Telecoms for the various local charity organisations that
support us.

You just have to play the hand your delt the best you can.

------
laughfactory
Even without your insane commute, your description of your life sounds like
mine. I'm a data scientist by trade, married, and father of three young ones
(5, 2, and 4 months). My side project is writing (I've always wanted to be a
published author), and it drives me looney always being so tapped out and
exhausted. I try to enjoy family life while they're young because I know
they'll become more independent as they get older, but man, when I'm too tired
to do anything when my "alone time" rolls around after I get the older kids to
bed, and when it seems my wife and I rarely get 1:1 time, it really makes me
cranky and resentful. So the writing doesn't get done, and neither does any
continuing education.

What I'm trying out is getting to bed earlier (hey, if I'm too tired to do the
things I value then maybe I should just sleep!), and I'm starting to exercise.
I've been told that exercise helps 1) sleep better, 2) feel better, and 3)
gives you more energy. We'll see how it goes!

But yeah, try to figure out a way out of that commute. Some people are able to
turn their commute into productive time, but I never had the knack. My
understanding is that this phase is just that, a phase, and as the kids get
older it will get easier in some ways.

------
zer00eyz
Ok, I'm going to make a suggestion that others may find silly and may not work
for you...

You have two hours a day where you can't do anything but drive and think.

Audio notes are your friend, take them while your in the car.

What I find when I do this is that I don't really need to reference the notes
after I take them! After reading this article (
[http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/pointing-and-calling-
ja...](http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/pointing-and-calling-japan-trains)
) I think I understand why now.

When I get the time to work on my own stuff I find that I'm much more
efficient with it than I would be if I was just sitting down to stare at a
screen, and I can accomplish a lot in 15-20 minutes a day on side projects, or
research, or ....

------
__d
I get up at 5:30am, shower, eat, and start at 6am. Work until 5pm, and then
pick up my kid from daycare. Bath, cook dinner, kid's bedtime at 8pm. Do
another 2-3 hours work.

Work from home, so no commute. Work 6-8am Thursday, and then rest of the day
off to look after the kid. Usually do a couple of hours on a weekend night,
depending on what my partner's doing.

I try to do side-projects, learn new stuff, etc, at nights. It doesn't work
too well because I'm exhausted.

I switched to remote hourly contracting so I'd be able to take the Thursday
off, but trying to fit in a full week's work on the other days is exhausting.
Losing the commute was great; the social isolation and loss of work/home
separation sucks.

I think it's just tough.

~~~
thatwebdude
Although you're remote; someone's abusing those hours it sounds like.

You're working too much, of course you're exhausted!

------
DharmaSoldat
I'm a newish dad and full stack dev. I've found that what's been most
effective for me, aside from spending (admittedly, far too much) time coding
in the evenings before sleep, is making a concerted effort to share whole-day
responsibility of the kids on weekends. I'll take the kids on one day, my wife
will take the kids on another day. We trade off during the week too so we can
both have large stretches of uninterrupted time.

Exercise (and for me, meditation) are important balancers too - don't neglect
them for the sake of coding, you'll find that you just get burnt out.

~~~
thatwebdude
Although I don't usually get full-days this has become really helpful for me.
4 or 6 hours of time to do something is incredibly productive for me now.

------
mrbonner
I had the same thoughts as you do now regarding not having enough time for my
development career. My advise: spend as much time as you can with your kid!
You will not be able to replay those moment when he/she grows up.

------
noir_lord
My GF and her little boy moved in with me recently, that was a shock to the
system, I knew on a conceptual level how much time kids took but damn was I
underestimating the effort required.

I try to keep him entertained as much as possible so that she gets some time
for herself even its just a soak in the bath while we play xbox or something.

It's been fun and hardworking but I dont regret it either.

Fortunately they share custody so it's usually half week here, half week at
his dads.

That recharge time is important and something a lot of parents never get.

------
thatwebdude
Before I had kids my time management was absolute crap; so getting this
together was key, and nearly made my days 25 or 26 hours long.

Your schedule seems about right. There's definitely worse ones out there.
Assuming you have young kids, they will become more independent with time to
allow you to have time back for yourself.

My schedule is nearly identical; although I do have to admit I'm about an hour
later than you for everything.

To become a semi-successful parent (is that even a thing? We'll see in 18
years) who still gets shit done I've learned to simply utilize every idle
moment. It allows me about an hour of extra time for something during the
weekdays, and makes my weekends more efficient. I tend to sacrifice my own
sleep when I really need more time for something and it usually works out
okay, as long as I don't make it a habit for the week (or I'll feel sick,
tired, or just unwilling to over-perform).

Right now, I'm going through a home renovation, so the process is slow but
it's considered my "side-project". The nice thing about it is that I can
involve my kids in it to keep them occupied and still get a little bit of
something done.

For keeping up with tech, my pace at work is slow enough that I can
continuously evolve the software I write with new technologies and best
practices. Before I started where I'm at, I was at a much more fast-pace place
which was fun and exciting; but absolutely damning to my home life because of
all the other stuff I've got going on. (And nothing angers Mrs. and Kids more
than coming home at 8 or 9pm frequently).

------
lucidlive
My life is close to yours. I have 2 young kids but I work from home. But
here's how I swing it: I wake up at 4:00am and work till about 6am when my
kids wake up. Then I'm back at it at 7am when my wife takes over with kids. I
then work till anytime between 3pm and 5pm.

That's about 10 to 12 hours a day. It's a lot but I'm usually working on
contract or my own business so I love my work.

I don't really believe in side projects. I believe in taking a plunge.

------
fusiongyro
Your biggest problem is your 2 hour commute. Move closer to work or find a job
closer to your house and you'll have a huge increase in free time and energy.

~~~
frankydp
Agree. Change what you can control, at least start there.

------
agentultra
Partner, 2 kids, full time job. I get home, play with the kids, wash them and
put them to bed. I usually work on side projects most evenings and spend an
evening or two a week with my SO.

I usually budget 3 - 4 nights a week to side projects.

I saved most of my time by choosing to work remote/close-to-home. I don't make
as much as some of my friends who live in the big city or out on the West
coast. However I get to wake up at a reasonable hour, walk my kids to school,
and stop by the café on my way to work to catch up on the local gossip.

From about 8 - 11, 3... sometimes 4 nights a week I work on my side projects.
I used to do more open source stuff but right now I'm working on a book [0]
and testing the waters with a GraphQL service [1]. I've also committed myself
to recording one, short, album a month.

It sounds like a lot but I guess being a parent I've learned to juggle and be
effective with what little time I have. I tend to pre-plan my activities and
force them into habits, rituals that sort of thing.

Some days I'm too exhausted. But that's ok. Take a little time off and go to
bed early.

------
pfarnsworth
Yep, same here. Having kids completely destroyed my productivity. I now
understand why people like to spend money on apps like Farmville, because it's
mindless and you don't feel stress. I feel the same way with reading reddit
and HN at night, because I'm too tired to think about reading. If I pick up a
book, I'll fall asleep within about 15 mins. So it's hard.

------
ryanwaggoner
Being self employed has made things a lot easier for me, but two years into
having kids, I'm still trying to break the bad habit of thinking "I'll get it
done tonight / this weekend."

My wife and I do split things up in ways that make it easier. So we each have
a morning off, a weeknight off, and we split the weekends so we each get 1-2
blocks of 4 hours. This is obviously a luxury that is easier with two parents,
one kid, etc.

As my daughter turns two, I'm amazed at how quickly her personality is
emerging and developing. I've spent a lot of time thinking abou a blog post I
read years ago by some founder or investor who pointed out that you really
only get about a decade with your kids. From toddler to early teen years where
their lives start to diverge and they have their own need for independence.
That really drove home the point that this is an incredibly fleeting time, and
I have to pay attention and be present, because once it's gone, it's gone
forever.

------
hosh
I work remote at an early-stage startup. My wife recently regained custody of
her 12-year-old daughter. Our daughter is on the Autism spectrum, and when
combined with emotional issues and an entitlement attitude, this has not only
consumed my time, but my wife's as well. It's a full-time job for two parents.

My "side projects" encompasses more than than software programming -- martial
arts, meditation, biking, etc. I used to be able to do a lot of things, but I
can't anymore. My step-daughter comes home around 15:30 and it tends to go on
until around 21:30. More if there was a meltdown or some sort of family drama
(which, in the past few months have happened frequently, but thankfully, is
trending less now). I've had to take over getting her up in the morning --
both my wife and my wife's mother have had significant trouble getting her out
of bed, showered, dressed and ready for school. Likewise for getting ready for
bed.

I've had to accept that my life and lifestyle has changed. (I thought I was
prepared for it; I wasn't). I've had to work through a lot of things myself,
including periodic, arising feelings of resentment that is toxic to a child
growing up. The meditation helps, but ultimately, I had to accept change and
the fact that I am not as in control of my life as I used to be.

I had also been working with her a lot on homework -- to stop doing her math
and reading like she is mashing buttons while playing a video game. I quickly
found that there are even more basic wisdom and skills that my daughter never
learned: what it means to be a part of a community; what responsibility means;
what respect and speaking respectfully means. We've also been trying to wean
her off of the meds and learn how to process her emotions.

Over time, I've been coaching her through different things. Our current theme
is "organization" \-- how to organize her time, how to organize her things,
how to check things off a list by herself instead of "mashing buttons" (she
has a tendency to try something to quickly satisfy what she perceives as what
my wife or I wants instead of thinking things through, or methodically
checking through things). The idea is to transfer more and more responsibility
for herself to her rather than helicopter parenting and enabling this attitude
of "parents are service providers". It takes time, it's bearing fruit, and
this process goes at its own pace.

And yeah, at the end of the night, I'm exhausted too.

Some five years back, I got into an internet flame-war with someone about
this. He was working 60-hour weeks with kids, trapped in his job, and I was
talking about side-projects. I was single with a lot of mobility. Joke's on
me.

------
ak39
This was my life till 2011 when I renegotiated my contract to work mornings
only (5 hours). That gave me afternoons off with benefit of stress-free
commute home.

It wasn't easy to get the arrangement but I started off with two days of the
week at first and then upped it to all five days.

If you can tolerate reduction in income, that's a respectable arrangement to
start off with.

------
dyarosla
Just a comment on your side project: replacing the font would help
tremendously.

Super hard to read through listings in a font not suited for legibility.

~~~
johngorse
Tnx for suggestion. I did a change. More like it or do you have any concrete
suggestion about font?

~~~
dyarosla
Definitely better. Next suggestion would be to decrease spacing between each
header and its details below, as well as minimize the number of font sizes you
have (your by line and your tags lines are 1.5em and 1.6em, your header is
another size and it also differs from the number size on the left of it).
These things are more stylistic design choices, whereas the font type was
definitely a usability concern.

Personally I would pick a font that is less vertically stretched, but again,
stylistic choice at this point.

~~~
econnors
Agree with these. You can hire a freelance designer for fairly cheap and it
makes a huge difference.

I think adding a visual separator between sections would help too, along with
maker search/header/post-cta a little bigger:

[http://imgur.com/a/qaj0x](http://imgur.com/a/qaj0x)

------
godot
Having gotten married recently, things have already changed quite a bit,
before even having kids. I have a similar job and commute as you do.

I also recently had the opportunity to change jobs and made it a point to join
a place that doesn't believe in working long hours and staying late. (I used
to work in an infamous place for long hours, then I left that to cofound my
own startup which was again long hours even if more flexible.) My team here is
totally fine with my 9:30-6:00 schedule with working from home 1 day of the
week. This is currently how I balance it. I predict having kids will throw a
wrench at this scheduling again and I'll have to re-adjust. As for side
projects, it's pretty much fitting it in spare minutes on the train commute,
when the wife showers, etc.

~~~
maccard
Sorry if this is over personal, but how does getting married change things?
Were there more changes than marriage at the same time? I'm not married, but
have been living with my partner for 3 years, together for 8 and am about to
buy a house with them, so I'm wondering what I've got ahead of me!

~~~
godot
I think it's a personal commitment thing. For example, after being married,
I'd like to commit to having dinner with her all (or almost all) days of the
week, whereas before, I was pretty ok with staying later at work and grab a
bite with coworkers; that sort of thing. I absolutely make it a point to avoid
staying late at work unless absolutely necessary.

------
torte
Of course it affects my life. Now obviously the rest of the day and most of
the weekend is either spend at work or home with my son (he is 3, so still
needs more attention than older kids).

On the other side, I was never really into side projects in the evenings,
simply because I needed that time to cool off and relax a bit. Without that
time I would quickly burn out. The best is (and if you can) is to make your
"side project" your day job.

The question is still if it actually affected me as a developer in the sense
that I can not do the work anymore? No, it did not. I leave work earlier but
that's pretty much it. I don't feel less productive than before. Actually I
even think I am more productive since the time is more limited. It is all
about what you make of it I believe.

------
buf
I was the CTO of a series-A backed startup. My entire life changed when I had
my kid, and I decided to quit my job and live cheaply in eastern Europe for
about 6 months. You can read about it here:
[https://medium.com/@buf/experimenting-with-retirement-
ef6ab0...](https://medium.com/@buf/experimenting-with-retirement-ef6ab0e89991)
tl;dr - I retired, and it was amazing.

Since, I've come back to the States and I think I've figured out a good
balance. I work remotely now, so I can spend time with the family and watch
the kid grow daily. Sure, I won't be a CTO anymore the next few years, but it
gives me time to take on a reasonable amount of work.

I think I'll do this for a few more years.

------
rapsacnz
Your commute is costing you around 10K per year, just for direct costs such as
car and fuel. Then you have indirect costs such as: -lost time which you can
probably put a dollar figure on (esp if you are using some of that time for a
side project that may one day have value) Then finally there are the
intangible costs: -lower fitness, meaning more sickness, more medical bills.
-a less fullfilling relationship with your wife and kids -stress of the
commute, also contributing to poor health.

Basically you should go to your boss, if possible and ask to work from home -
you could even take a 10K pay cut and it would make no difference financially.

I've worked from home for 10+ years and it's great. You should do it if at all
possible.

------
mixmastamyk
Not much time, eh? ;-)

Well, I see one obvious thing to cut without sacrificing your work or
children, and that is the commute. Get yourself a gig that you can walk/bike
in a short amount of time. Choose it well and you'll get exercise too.

Now, I know what you're thinking right now, _I can 't!_ Because of X, Y, and
Z. Sure, understood in the short term. But, ask yourself where you want to be
in a year or two?

If you start looking now, you can find a closer or remote job, or move home to
be near a great job---over the medium term. Want to know how I know? Because,
I've been doing it for twenty years. So when people say, "oh, I couldn't
possibly" BS is called quickly. Good luck.

------
jaboutboul
Forget about developing and side projects. How do people keep up with learning
new things and staying on top of things. Its very hard to learn new tools,
frameworks or even stay current in 30min/night, and when youre not exhausted.

------
xLFC
IMO the silver bullet is to find a job that eliminates your need for side
projects and studying new technologies. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's
definitely not impossible.

------
billdueber
A lot of parents really, really like having kids. The ROI on having children
is, for them, so self-evident that they don't really think about it. But
that's not true for everyone, esp. if you were old enough to be pretty fully-
formed by the time you became a father. Kids come at a huge cost. You're
exhausted from dealing with them, and in the meantime you're probably not
exercising, and you're eating like crap, and, inevitably, just plain getting
older.

Step 1 is to reconcile your ideal of who you'll be in the future -- what job,
how smart, how influential, etc. -- with the resources actually available to
you now. I had to downshift considerably.

Your kids aren't going away, and you're not going to be able to sustain what
you're doing now until they get old enough. You need to make a change, and
soon, because if you don't you're going to end up wondering how and why you
mortgaged your life to your goddamn kids.

I have three boys: 5, 8, and 10. For my first six years of having kids, every
time someone told me to "enjoy them while you can" I wanted to punch that
person in the throat. I knew they were right, but there are days when that's
just not even in the realm of possibility.

There are a lot of parents who are tired, and sick of walking on dropped
cereal, and miss being able to pick an actual restaurant that serves actual
grown-up food. But there's also a huge societal more to not talk about it, or
to aways end with something like, "But it's so worth it," or "It's the hardest
job I've ever loved," especially for women. But while it's almost certainly
"worth it" for the majority of parents the majority of the time, there are
going to be days when it's just NOT.

The cliché is that "The years are short, but the days are long." It's true. In
hindsight, the fact that I have a ten-year-old seems insane -- how could it
have been ten years? What the hell have I been doing for the last decade? Do I
even remember life before kids -- what it was like to just have a wife, to set
my own schedule?

At the same time, every night at 6:30pm I find myself asking, "How can it only
be 6:30?"

I spent a good number of years just basically resenting the crap out of my
boys, which is about as healthy as you might guess. I hated dealing with my
kids, hating myself for hating dealing with my kids, and knew I'd hate myself
later for not enjoying the young-kid experience while I could. I, my kids, and
my wife all suffered.

Now I've got therapy and some drugs and a CPAP, and things are better. Not
every day, but most days. Well, many days.

Kids completely take over your life, at least for a while, and it's almost
impossible to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Your job -- your JOB --
is to figure out how to enjoy them now so that the sacrifices are worth it to
you.

~~~
thatwebdude
I bet the decision to have kids was your wife's.

I'm glad you're coming to terms with it.

Sorry, that was just a very passive-agressive read.

~~~
billdueber
No, it was a joint decision. I just figured I'd be more-or-less like _my_ dad,
who loves being a dad. It never struck me that it might be something I really
struggle with.

Overall, it was the right decision for us. But there are definitely valleys
along with the peaks.

------
petercooper
I get a lot done. Having more responsibilities means I focus more and dilly-
dally less. I focus on what's important. What I lose in hours, I gain in
ambition and focus.

------
wheaties
From 5:30am-9pm my hours are for work, commute, family and chores. My wife
usually falls asleep at 9:30-10. If I feel rested, I'll hack for 30min-1hr
most nights.

On the weekend, we both make sure the other has "my time." It's important. I
used to get 2hrs+ a night to hack. My productivity at work wasn't nearly as
good as it is now. I don't miss it. I like family life way more. My life as a
developer has never been better.

------
rvanmil
I struggled with this for a while too, but I quickly realized spending time
with the family is a lot more fun than side projects.

Also, I'm surprised no one has suggested daylighting [1] yet, it can be a
reasonable option if your employer pays you to deliver instead of keeping a
chair warm for 8 hours.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14217849](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14217849)

------
misterbwong
tl;dr;

1\. Prioritize, prioritize, prioritize,

2\. You'll never have enough time.

3\. Timeshift and batch up tasks

4\. Trade money for time.

Father of 2 kids (3 and 6mo) here. RUTHLESS prioritization has been critical
in helping me reach my goals. Having the two kiddos has taught me to be
absolutely ruthless and efficient with my time. Prioritization is the key and
saying no is something you need to get used to. I'm a people-pleaser at heart
so this has been a difficult transition but, after accepting that I can't say
yes to everyone and everything, I've been able to make more progress towards
my goals.

There aren't enough hours in the day to do all that you want. Period. You need
to take a hard look at every single activity you do and decide whether it's
worth spending time on. If something isn't in the Top 3 of your priorities for
the day, drop it and don't even consider it. Trying to do everything ends up
wasting time because you end up having to half-ass everything. Time is
precious.

Timeshift and batch tasks. Pre-plan what you can so that you can be present
for whatever it is you are doing. Meal plan your week in advance so you don't
waste time deciding what to cook. Decide on what you're going to wear for the
week in advance to speed up your morning routine. Have your kids do the same
(mine actually likes it).

Learn to delegate to trade money for time, at least temporarily, if you have
the resources. Hire a gardener, hire a house cleaner, hire a VA, outsource any
tasks that can be outsourced. Deliver food if necessary. If I said you could
buy an extra hour a day for $20, would you? I certainly would (and do).

Side note: HUGE props to the single parents out there. Don't think I could
handle two w/o my (awesome!) SO.

------
sunpazed
I have three kids under 5 years, and I've been more productive than ever.
Mostly due to the fact that my wife and I aren't spending time socialising
after hours or on the weekend.

Once the kids are in bed, there's not much to do on a Friday or Saturday
night. As a result, in the last 5 years I've built and launched several small
side-projects.

------
fivestar
You can do that indefinitely, or until you suffer a psychotic break. Either
way, you'll be fine.

------
bsvalley
Yep. That's why when you reach this milestone, you ain't care about the name
of a company, if the product is hot or not. All you care about are

\- ability to work from home

\- not too competitive environment (otherwise you'd get put aside by young
people)

\- good health coverage

------
j_s
Related discussion 2 months ago:

 _Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?_ |
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13816627](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13816627)

------
naviehuynh
I am not in such situation (yet), but if I were you, I would probably learn
new technologies just for fun. Side projects require some level of commitment
to yield results, which is admittedly hard when you have kids already.

------
tmaly
I have the option to take the train to work, so that gives me a solid 2 hours
a day to hack on my side project.

I would have to say my time hacking on a project is more focused with kids.
You have to be if you want to get things done.

------
bsvalley
Lifecycle of a software engineer:

10-20 years old = if Zuckerberg then stop here, else:

20-30 years old = Best perk, best company, best project

30-40 years old = Work from home, short commute, less work

40-60 years old = QA or maintain legacy code

------
thatwebdude
Maybe this side project obsession we all have stems from most things being
easy to us? Too many people trying to be Tony Stark?

------
Steeeve
I keep reading about software developers who sleep every night and work 8 hour
days. Both are completely foreign concepts to me.

~~~
thatwebdude
8 hours days are possible when you get out of startups.

I never had trouble with sleep after I had kids.

------
TYPE_FASTER
Some nights I work on something else from 8/9pm to 11pm/12am. Other nights I
recover. Weekends are tough to get time.

------
peterarmstrong
Pro-tip: Figure out a way to work from home some days. You'd save 2-3 hours.
Give one to your company and one to yourself.

~~~
peterarmstrong
Or, better, join / create a distributed team. Last August, the day before a
3-week family vacation to Japan, we closed Leanpub's office and became a
distributed team. It was a great decision; we are happier this way, even
though most of us live in the same city. Zero commute = more time with your
kids and more time working with fewer interruptions. (No, we're not hiring
right now :)

------
brockers
If it didn't then you are probably doing one or the other wrong.

