
In Silicon Valley, Working 9 to 5 Is for Losers - shawndrost
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/31/opinion/sunday/silicon-valley-work-life-balance-.html
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trjordan
No doubt we talk about it that way.

Not every company is like that. LinkedIn was famously 40-hour weeks in the
early days. I just started at a company that's pretty aggressively work-life
balanced. We're no doubt a startup (VC funding, high growth, the whole 9
yards), but we just don't believe that 80 hour weeks translates to the best
work. You are first and foremost your own caretaker, and it's probably bad if
you're in the office 8-6 and working at home.

Culture matters, and it's different at every company. Don't let what's said on
Twitter fool you into thinking it's the same everywhere.

[x-posted from the other thread]

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drewg123
That's nonsense, at least for Google.

In my organization, it was rare to work more than 8 hours. I worked ~8 hours
at the office, and did little more than check email occasionally on evenings /
weekends, and still managed to be promoted to staff SWE after 2 years. I knew
several people that would arrive at 9:30 and leave by 4pm. It was like a
vacation after the small IHV that I worked for previously.

~~~
theDoug
Speaking as another Googler, but over in Product Marketing Management, my
experience of working hours and reward, and that of others, is similar to your
observation.

I remember being told on day two of Noogler training (paraphrasing) “if you
find yourself working evenings and weekends something is messed up.” We
actively want to find where efficiencies can be made or where more support is
needed. Someone working 'harder' (AKA additional ass-in-chair-hours) does not
deliver that.

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s73ver_
There are so many stories out there of people who busted their ass, ignored
family, sacrificed all their free time for a startup only to be completely
shafted. Workers are starting to wise up to the idea, and start asking what
they get for putting their life on hold in order to make someone else rich.
And they're not really getting a compelling answer.

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ucaetano
Funny how this is a Silicon Valley article that doesn't mention Google at all.
Most of the people I know who work there do 9 to 5, sometimes 9 to 6, rarely 9
to 7.

Guess they're all "losers" then.

~~~
scarmig
I know a couple who do a 10 to 5.

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monksy
This is one of their favorite reasons for recruiting people without
experience: They're unlikely to say no and more unlikely to be married or have
familial commitments.

~~~
tezzer
My first job in Silicon Valley I had no idea I should be saying 'no' to
unreasonable demands. I burned out pretty hard.

Encouragingly, when I started saying 'no' I started getting taken seriously as
an engineer. The conversation after 'no' includes real engineering topics on
resources, schedules, techniques and backup plans. 'Ok, how do we get this
done?', not 'You're fired'.

~~~
monksy
I found that to be applicable to dating.

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SmirkingRevenge
In my anecdotal experience perusing glassdoor and talking to various tech
company recruiters (as I job hunt), a lot of companies these days (in the
valley and elsewhere) seem to be touting "good work life balance" and "9-5
hours" as a selling point.

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sjg007
Remember they are selling..

~~~
SmirkingRevenge
Oh yea, absolutely, I'm not going to accept those pitches at face value. Been
around the block enough times to be skeptical, but its at least something that
it seems to be a thing that companies are advertising as a feature.. maybe.

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mnm1
No, the losers are the idiots putting in long hours for the same pay as the 9
to 5 guys.

~~~
vhost-
Sometimes it's not possible to say no. The rip and replace strategy of SV will
surely force some people to work more than a 9 to 5.

~~~
mnm1
True. I should have said those who do so voluntarily.

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zaqokm321
There is one true way to measure this, you may be offering skills but you are
selling your time.

100,000 / (52 _40) = $48 p /h (8 hours a day) 100,000 / (52_60) = $32 p/h (12
hours a day)

You are actually costing yourself $320 ($16600 pa) a week by working and extra
20 hours.

60,000 / (52 _40) = $28 p /h (8 hours a day) 60,000 / (52_60) = $19 p/h (12
hours a day)

You are actually costing yourself $180 ($9360 pa) a week by working and extra
20 hours.

I understand this is a fairly black and white way of looking at it, and you
could easily say hey I am earning 100K and happy putting in the time.

Now if you take Gary's V point of view on an 18 hour day

100,000 / (52*126) = $15 p/h (18 hours a day).

You want to make sure you get a return on your investment, and as an employee
you probably never will. However a business person, I agree these hours may be
beneficial.

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taurath
There's plenty of work life balance available for people who want it, and not
on shitty teams. The people who believe and have the passion to work for 18
hours a day either are just plain passionate or are being played. At every job
I've had I could come in (or not) for 5 hours a day as long as I attend
catchup meetings and get my work done.

There's another class of people that truly believe they are the next Jobs or
Bezos or Serge or Larry. There will always be those people in the valley, but
the good part is at least for now nobody has to work either for or with them
if they don't want to. They can say everyone who isn't as "passionate" as them
are losers but nobody has to listen to them.

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dogruck
If you work 9 to 5, you're paid accordingly. Of course, some people foolishly
work even more hours for little additional pay.

If you want to earn more, you either need to work more, or you need to prove
that your work generates revenue. If you are a revenue engine, a company will
always pay you. Otherwise, you're just a bee in the hive.

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uiri
I was expecting an article about the crazy traffic in the Bay Area and people
working weird hours (6am to 2pm or 1pm to 9pm or crazier) to compensate. I was
kind of disappointed by the article decrying workaholism which is by no means
required to get ahead anywhere in Silicon Valley.

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skookum
I'm happy to be a 9-to-5 loser making market rate at BigCo and gladly leave
the winners to their startup lottery tickets and their 60+ hour weeks of
busyness theatre.

