
Foxconn Bears The Brunt Of Ivory Tower Assault On Capitalism - iProject
http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/09/foxconn-kogan/
======
ahelwer
I think The New Yorker said it best.

[http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/03/iphon...](http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/03/iphone-
factories-chinese-dreams.html)

Choice paragraph:

"The simple narrative equating American demand and Chinese suffering is
appealing, especially at a time when many Americans feel guilty about their
impact on the world. It’s also inaccurate and disrespectful. We must be
peculiarly self-obsessed to imagine we have the power to drive tens of
millions of people on the other side of the world to migrate and suffer in
terrible ways. China produces goods for markets all over the world, including
for its own consumers, thanks to low costs, a large and educated workforce,
and a flexible manufacturing system that responds rapidly to market demands.
To imagine that we have willed this universe into being is simply solipsistic.
It is also demeaning to the workers. We are not at the center of this story—we
are minor players in theirs. By focussing on ourselves and our gadgets, we
have reduced the human beings at the other end to invisibility, as tiny and
interchangeable as the parts of a mobile phone."

~~~
Joeboy
> To imagine that we have willed this universe into being is simply
> solipsistic

That's a straw man though. Even the most woolly-minded liberal hippy consumer
doesn't imagine that their purchasing choices are the sole driver of events in
China. The word "solipsistic" doesn't make the possibility of effective
consumer activism disappear.

~~~
ahelwer
This isn't something that I can provide statistics for, but it seems to me
that most news stories take the heavily American-centric angle on the topic.
The New Yorker article provides valuable perspective. Of course I support slow
and steady pressure on the American corporations involved, but paternalism
should be avoided.

~~~
Joeboy
Well, I'm European and completely up for critiques of American imperialism.
I've never felt any of the criticisms of Apple / Foxconn were specifically
aimed at Americans though. I mean they might talk about dollars and relate
things to American incomes etc, but I've never felt they gave me license to
buy a guilt-free iPhone.

------
scarmig
"The Chinese care more about learning and being productive than they do about
how many sick days and annual leave days they will get each year."

Thank god there's some white dude here to share the truth about what those
Orientals want. Weekends and health insurance? pffft. The only thing Chinese
people value is hard work!

(And I'm someone who's not terribly shocked or upset at Foxconn. Terrible
article, nonetheless.)

~~~
lunaru
Not to be overly sensitive, but I believe the term "Orientals" is derogatory.
Even if used in jest, you wouldn't use something like the "N" word casually
(<http://www.lifeintheusa.com/people/asians.htm>). Just pointing this out for
the sake of clean conversation.

~~~
drats
It's obvious that scarmig is parodying the comments Ruslan makes in the
article and thus using the term "Orientals" to criticise and not in his/her
own voice. Well perhaps it's not obvious to hyper-ventilating PC police so
intent on keeping things "clean" you write a post attacking someone who likely
agrees with you..

Edit: You were on the right track when you said "not to be overly sensitive"
because even with your misinterpretation of scarmig you were still aware that
you were being an annoying whiner.

------
eli_gottlieb
_Her response reminded me of how I felt about work when I started Kogan.
Working long hours is not a sign that workers are being exploited. I know
plenty of entrepreneurs who are very excited that they spend almost every
waking moment creating something that will make the world a better place. The
Chinese strike me as very enterprising people, who want to improve their lives
and are prepared to work hard to achieve their goals._

So basically:

* This writer, for all his railing against an "ivory-tower assault on capitalism", does not understand the definition of exploitation as given by Marx: the difference between value produced by the worker and value captured by the worker. Entrepreneurs _own_ the businesses at which they work, and can thus capture 100% of their work-value. Employees don't, and usually can't (not even through stock options).

* This writer does not differentiate between a rapidly developing economy (China) and a stagnant, rent-seeking late-capitalist economy (United States).

 _Assembly lines can be moved to new countries, or even replaced with robots._

Winning a race to the bottom on labor arbitrage is no honor. The Chinese don't
consider it an honor either: strikes and demonstrations for higher wages and
shorter hours are actually quite common in modern China.

 _People who were happy with their employer, their job, their wage, their
learning opportunity and their livelihood would lose their job, despite the
fact that they never once complained._

This is a classic piece of capitalist propaganda brought to bear on _every
single proposal_ for improving the conditions of workers. Somehow, improving
working conditions and wages for everyone will result in workaholics going
emotionally unfulfilled by their sudden birth of free time.

Bullshit. Workaholics will start a side-business in their free time.

 _We also need to recognize that all countries go through a phase of
industrial manufacturing during their development. This happened in England
through the industrial revolution, and in the USA in the 19th century. We
should not be trying to deprive the Chinese of increasing their prosperity
through this significant and mandatory stage of development._

We should every bit be encouraging the Chinese to proceed naturally through
this phase of development by creating and enhancing labor protections and
trade unions.

 _I believe there is a lot of value in an open and transparent discussion over
important issues._

No you don't. You wrote this entire article to dismiss the current-day labor
movement, in its Western branch and implicitly in its _Chinese_ branch, out of
hand.

~~~
meric
One of the easiest things the Chinese government can do to raise the living
standards of its citizens is to let the yuan float freely - By placing a price
ceiling on the yuan against the US dollar it means imports are more expensive
and its citizens can buy less.

Consider, if the yuan rose in price by 100% it would mean the price of the
iPhone will be halved and more of the workers who toiled the long hours will
be able to afford one - or they can cut down on overtime instead.

Right now with the inflation rate is much higher than the interest rate in
China, meaning the government is actually penalising people for saving too
much.

They are saving that much because they know one day, their money will be worth
more.

I agree with the OP the "ivory's assault on foxconn" is essentially pointless
and potentially harmful. You are raising the living standards of one small
group out of hundreds of thousands at a time. Good luck with that.

Oh and all workers belong to a government operated union.

~~~
el_presidente
_Consider, if the yuan rose in price by 100% it would mean the price of the
iPhone will be halved and more of the workers who toiled the long hours will
be able to afford one - or they can cut down on overtime instead._

Wouldn't the price of the iPhone also go up by 100% since they are the ones
who make it?

~~~
meric
No, because the value added by labourers to an iPhone is less than 100%. Much
of the rest of the value added are from other countries.

But you do provoke a point - Would Chinese workers be making the iPhone if the
yuan rose by 100%? There's a good chance they might not be. Yet, if the rise
of the yuan was not a result of intervention by governments, it would mean
that the yuan rose because there is high demand for China's exports - As long
as China's exports remain in high demand there will be further growth in its
exports industry, making sure there will be enough work for China's workers.

------
rhdoenges
This reads like a justification of poor labor conditions, which it is. Eerie
echoes of the gilded age.

------
hjhjhj
"I regularly visit all of our Chinese manufacturing facilities to keep an eye
on what is going on and I am always talking to the factory owners, managers
and assembly line staff."

This is so hilarious to anyone who is in the working class.

~~~
hjhjhj
I should elaborate. Why do western folk always think everyone elsewhere is
some stupid developing world idiot who would never be able to game the system
the same way we game the system over here?

~~~
pyre
1) There is really no way to prevent the gaming of the system, so it's easier
to just suspend disbelief and assume that, "I visited the factory, therefore
it's impossible that something could be going on behind my back.

2) If you go over there and the people are nice to you and you get a good vibe
from them, it's an assault on your 'people skills' that they could be lying to
you without being detected.

~~~
lzh-ng
The author obviously believes his visits rule out the possibility of
exploitation. However, there's something to said for actually being on the
ground, as opposed to forming opinions based on western paternalism and media
histrionics.

