
Ask HN: Does anyone use a Dvorak simplified keyboard or alternatives? - bushido
I have always been curious if any developers&#x2F;hackers&#x2F;etc. use a Dvorak simplified keyboard or other alternatives to a QWERTY keyboard?<p>Was it a challenge to use?<p>Once accustomed was there any added advantage to using it?<p>Would you ever recommend others to use it?<p>One of my laptops has a QWERTY with non-standard tab, caps, shift, enter&#x2F;return keys and its a nightmare to use, granted I rarely use it.<p>But the thought of having a similar experience has kept me away from non-qwerty layouts.
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limeblack
I use Dvorak simplified with a couple modifications for coding and typing on a
regular basis. This is the actual autohotkey script that I use on my Windows
laptop currently.
[http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=JNf6N9wf](http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=JNf6N9wf)

I have kept []-="/ in the same location as qwerty because I have found keeping
these keys in the same locations keeps my mind from getting to confused when I
do switch back to qwerty for temporary usage(also they are easier to type in
the qwerty location IMO).

If you look at the Dvorak keyboard here[1] leaving []-="/ in the same
locations moves the z key off the keyboard. I then put the z key next to the
left shift and the ; key next to tab.

> Was it a challenge to use?

If you read my Q&A here
[http://superuser.com/q/598405](http://superuser.com/q/598405) it demonstrates
that switching to other keyboard layouts aren't difficult, but can be quit
different depending on OS/system. Linux has the most variations of switching
between different keyboard layouts.

> Once accustomed was there any added advantage to using it?

Yes everything feels a lot smoothier IMO. I could type around 40-50wpm in
qwerty on a good day. Using Dvorak, I can consistently hit 90wpm with a few
mistakes. I can surpass 100wpm with some concentration.

> Would you ever recommend others to use it?

If you type on your own laptop/desktop mainly then I would recommend it.
Dvorak is pre-installed on all modern OSs, so it very easy to enable.

If you use Windows(like me) using an autohotkey script that you can use to
enable/disable Dvorak makes it easy enough for you to use other computers and
for others to use your own computer.

[1]: [http://roostersrail.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/dvorak-
simpl...](http://roostersrail.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/dvorak-simplified-
keyboard.png?w=780)

------
lowboy
I bought an ErgoDox[0] keyboard and switched over to a modified Colemak layout
with common programming symbols on and above the homerow, triggered with a
thumb layer key (think "fn" key on laptops).

I think that the symbols are the biggest win for me, as they keep my right
pinky away from the cluster at the top-right of a std QWERTY keyboard, and
generally reduces finger travel. That, and having the thumb clusters for
sp/enter/del/bs are great.

I did it cold turkey and the first few weeks were a bit of a grind, but
Colemak keeping QWAZXCVB in the same place helped with common shortcuts (quit,
close tab, copy, paste, undo, etc). Now I don't think I'd ever switch back. I
bring my keyboard around with me for any serious work. The nice thing about
having your layout as a part of the keyboard is that there's no configuration
of a different computer - just plug in your keybo and you're gold.

I'd highly recommend the ErgoDox with a custom layout (you can program your
own[1]). I don't know if I would recommend just using Colemak/Dvorak on a
standard keyboard. Programmer Dvorak[2] seems like the best option out of all
of them though.

I wrote an article on my experiences: [http://jjt.io/2013/11/25/why-any-
developer-should-check-out-...](http://jjt.io/2013/11/25/why-any-developer-
should-check-out-the-ergodox-keyboard/)

[0]: [http://ergodox.org](http://ergodox.org)

[1]: [https://github.com/jjt/ergodox-
firmware/blob/master/src/keyb...](https://github.com/jjt/ergodox-
firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/colemak-symbol-mod.c)

[2]:
[http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/](http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/)

~~~
limeblack
I hadn't heard of many people actually using Programmer Dvorak on a regular
basis. I guess it does solve my biggest frustration with regular Dvorak. The
location of [] on the regular Dvorak keyboard are absolutely terrible. I just
switched [] and -= like Qwerty because the frequency of use in programming.

I know the switching of all the symbols in Programmer Dvorak wouldn't be worth
the frustration for me. I type on a standard Qwerty keyboard, and without
stickers(something I wouldn't really want to do) I wouldn't feel comfortable
typing on a Programmer Dvorak keyboard layout. I have the regular home row
keys(well the english alphabet) in muscle memory, but the symbols I tend to
miss a little more often.

 __EDIT: __How difficult is it for you to switch between Qwerty and Dvorak?

~~~
lowboy
I'm using Colemak, and it's not too difficult to switch to a QWERTY keyboard
for textual entry. Usually it takes 5-10 minutes to get it back.

I'm definitely less productive for coding away from my ErgoDox.

And as to the stickers/legends, I use a blank keyboard and taped a cheatsheet
to the bottom of my monitor for the first 3 months. Works great.

[http://jjt.io/assets/media/ergo-layout.jpg](http://jjt.io/assets/media/ergo-
layout.jpg)

------
glimcat
I've tried, but:

* Typing speed turned out to rarely be a meaningful limit on my productivity with coding, writing, or general tasks.

* Using a nonstandard layout for my home desktop meant reconfiguring several laptops as well, then still having trouble any time I use any other computer.

Typing speed IS beneficial up to a point, but touch typing on QWERTY is
already going to be near or past the point of diminishing returns for many
users. It was fun to play with, but not worthwhile to do long-term. (YMMV)

~~~
bushido
_> Using a nonstandard layout for my home desktop meant reconfiguring several
laptops as well, then still having trouble any time I use any other computer._

This is one of the primary reasons I haven't bothered trying an alternate
keyboard layout.

------
masukomi
I switched to Dvorak years ago. I went cold turkey. Stuck a keyboard layout
below my monitor and didn't bother relabeling the keys. Also taught myself how
to type correctly while i was at it. It was two weeks of brutally slow typing,
but it was worth every moment. I'll never go back.

Downside to Dvorak is that it was based on english language, but programmers
type a lot of characters that are really rare in english: {}[]/;<> etc. So,
those end up being a little less optimally placed than you'd want them. That
being said i would strongly recommend against anything more exotic than
Dvorak, because it's very close to optimal, and when you go to any computer
you know that you won't have to download and custom-install some layout to be
able to type anything. All modern OSs come with Dvorak on them. You just need
to go to the settings and turn it on.

One of the upsides to Dvorak (besides a great excuse to learn to type
correctly) is that it's actually much more ergonomic. When typing English
you're typically alternating hands with each keystroke. That combined with
less weird finger movements left me with far less wrist strain.

As for speed, I'm back at 83 WPM.

Would I recommend it? I love dvorak, but I suspect that more important than it
is knowing how to type correctly. If you're serious about the health of your
wrists and willing to invest in keyboards that are actually ergonomic (like
the Kinesis advantage) rather than keyboards which do some actively bad things
and slap the "Ergonomic" label on them (Microsoft Ergo) then yeah, I believe
that investing the time in switching to Dvorak is a worthwhile addition to
help ward off carpal tunnel.

------
arxanas
I switched to Dvorak a while ago. I didn't notice any particular typing speed-
up; in fact, I may be slower in Dvorak than Qwerty right now! I don't think
typing speed is an important factor to consider when choosing Dvorak: it
hasn't made a difference for me, and I don't find it that important when
programming. The real gains for me is in ease-of-use, where Dvorak excels.

Dvorak is significantly easier on the hands than Qwerty. When not using a
program which relies on Vi-keys, Dvorak is by far preferable, even with the
arguably worse-placed brackets. As advertised, I much more rarely have to move
my hands from the home row. If you are at all concerned about the stress you
put on your hands, or if you find it tiring to type quickly in Qwerty, you
ought to try Dvorak.

It seems infeasible to use Vim with Dvorak. Right now, I use Qwerty in a
terminal and Dvorak elsewhere. I've gotten very good at switching between
layouts, so it's not a problem for me to switch between computers (as was
mentioned as a problem in another comment) or switch layouts on the computer.
To use Vim with Dvorak, the recommended solution seems to be to set Vim's
keymap so that it acts like Qwerty in normal mode and Dvorak in insert mode.
Despite being able to switch between layouts regularly, switching every few
seconds was too jarring for me to continue with it. If you use Vim, I would
not bother with Dvorak.

Dvorak has a significant learning curve. It probably took me a week or so to
be able to touch-type with it, and then maybe three more to touch-type
effectively (but this was a long time ago! so it is likely that I am
misremembering). If you are unable to commit to the lost productivity, I
wouldn't worry about it. However, if you are able to spend the time, it will
be a valuable investment which should make up for itself in a couple of
months.

~~~
limeblack
I don't find the VIM's shortcuts to be that unintuitive in Dvorak(many
actually feel more natural). But I do agree that the home row isn't anywhere
near as convenient.

