
Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans - panarky
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/08/google-needs-come-clean-about-its-chinese-plans
======
kodablah
It is simply not possible to both cooperate with the Chinese (or, to a lesser
extent, any other) government against its citizens and remain transparent.
Part of this type of cooperation includes a requirement by the government for
opacity. This is easier for less-principled and/or more closed companies. You
can only not-cooperate transparently (and even then, only sometimes).

The real problem is you can't have a we'll-publicly-disagree-but-do-it-anyways
approach with China like you might elsewhere. There's a reason a CEO might
make a public post disagreeing with the approach of one government yet will
forever remain mum concerning another.

Just stop requiring growth at all costs, chalk up the China (and military)
market as a loss, and continue operating at your massively profitable status
quo. It may seem like it's a double standard when other companies have access
to those markets sans media backlash, but just recognize the differences are
known out here in the masses.

~~~
Cthulhu_
> Just stop requiring growth at all costs, chalk up the China (and military)
> market as a loss, and continue operating at your massively profitable status
> quo.

This is what Google did initially; instead of censoring themselves like the
Chinese government demanded, they opted to leave the Chinese market entirely.

But that's almost ten years ago now; meanwhile, the Chinese economy / GDP has
doubled, its connected population has more than doubled, and Chinese internet
companies have entrenched themselves. China will - if it isn't already - be
the biggest potential market for internet companies.

~~~
dijit
> This is what Google did initially; instead of censoring themselves like the
> Chinese government demanded, they opted to leave the Chinese market
> entirely.

This is the narrative that Google is successfully pushing; the truth is that
they pulled out due to repeated hacking attempts.

Google did have a censored china version of its search engine.

~~~
ryanlol
Yeah, they pulled out just days after
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora)
became public

Censorship story is obviously complete bs

------
est
Fact 1: Google only pulled search business out of China. adsense/adwords/maps
works fine in China

Fact 2: Search engines are more and more irrelevant these days. All
interesting new content are either from Weibo or Wechat (or other closed
garden)

Fact 3: all reports about "Google returning to China" are based solely on the
"Intercept report"[1] as source. I suggest everyone take a look at it. I think
there's a huge misunderstanding. Maybe it's in-app search for some domain
business only instead of web-wide search?

Fact 4: Firewalls in China has a hierarchical layers of blocking. Some times
the plain text http is effected, sometimes it's the DNS, sometimes it's the
tis certs, most of the time it's heuristics (e.g. SVM model to classify
traffic) and random. There are also collateral blocking, like a blocking a
CDN. You can't guess exactly which one piece of information was the culprit.
And it all varies in places and time. All "blocking" are based on empirical
assumptions, no one have ever done a large scale, down to the packet level
study of it. Administrative notices of taking down articles are blurry as
hell. Sometimes there's even corporates faking govn't orders to remove some
review as PR move. So it's very hard to suggest if an "article" should be
blocked or not. The chinese govn't utilize this method to force everyone to
"self-censorship" and some business are making a profit of it.

[1]: [https://theintercept.com/2018/08/01/google-china-search-
engi...](https://theintercept.com/2018/08/01/google-china-search-engine-
censorship/)

~~~
robjan
Maps does not work in China. Source: in China

~~~
client4
Maps work better in China than Japan. Source, living in Shanghai and Beijing
with occasional Japan trips got a year.

~~~
jmknoll
Google maps is not accessible without a VPN in China. Not sure what the
disagreeement is about. I’m looking at it being blocked on my computer right
now.

You can see your own location in the Maps app, but that’s based on the phone’s
GPS, not a google service.

Not sure what the comparison to Japan is, but maps works fine in Tokyo. I use
it extensively every time I go there.

~~~
client4
I forgot to clarify, I'm using Google Fi in Beijing right now. My point was
that, even though maps may be blocked, it really works flawlessly. It's better
than Baidu maps, though Baidu has made great strides in quality lately.

~~~
methou
But how did you get the Google Fiber in Beijing?

* edit: grammar.

~~~
vmlinuz
Presumably this is Project Fi (fi.google.com) rather than Google Fiber...

~~~
chosenbreed
> Presumably this is Project Fi (fi.google.com) rather than Google Fiber...

Interesting. Hadn't come across it before.

~~~
client4
Yes, phone autocorrected Fi fiber...edited it but soon enough it seems. Google
Fi is available in the US with certain phones. I got the Pixel 2 specifically
for it... otherwise I'd probably have the Huawei P20

------
rqs
> Eight years after Google initially took a stand against Internet censorship
> by exiting the Chinese search market

Wried, don't just mention the censorship reason. The bigger picture is [0][1]:

1\. China government demanding content deletion by "Red-Header Files"
(Government document) rather than law (As it will make the censorship too
apparent), and it's violated Google's policy. NOT because of Google is an
anti-censorship enthusiast as many people think they are.

2\. During that time, Google (including Gmail) also under attack (with
possible internal help) by a group of hackers who Google claims are sponsored
by the government.

Now, 8 years later, things changed a lot. Especially after the implementation
of the _China Internet Security Law (中华人民共和国网络安全法)_ [2] which makes censorship
a public responsibility ...

[0] [https://techcrunch.com/2010/01/12/google-china-
attacks/](https://techcrunch.com/2010/01/12/google-china-attacks/)

[1] [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/google-
pr...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/google-probes-
possible-inside-help-on-china-attack/article1207344/)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Internet_Security_Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Internet_Security_Law)

------
throw2016
This disproportionate focus on China is being used as a distraction from the
all encompassing surveillance currently run by the NSA, GCHQ and Google,
Facebook and others which is a far bigger and ongoing threat to democracy and
citizens here. China's actions are limited to China.

There is hardly any activism against the invasive surveillance of SV companies
or protests against the NSA. This forum itself has its fair share of
apologists for surveillance capitalism. Where are the protests in front of
Google and Facebooks campuses and in Washington?

So if people don't care about these issues at home how can they care about
them in China? This is simply not credible or serious.

China's actions don't impact you, your governments and companies here do. In
the absence of any mainstream activism, just singling out China for outrage
and anger is duplicitous and comes across as motivated more by politics than
any genuine concern for the issues.

~~~
394549
> There is hardly any activism against the invasive surveillance of SV
> companies

Wut? It's obvious that's not true _at all_ , and really easy to prove. Just
read this NY Times article from yesterday, about how privacy activists got a
law passed in California to reign in those same SV companies:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/magazine/facebook-
google-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/magazine/facebook-google-
privacy-data.html).

~~~
throw2016
This only proves the point, the whole perspective of the nytimes piece is a
lone 'accidental' activist fighting against the system facing pushback at
every stage.

Where are the software engineers of SV who work for these companies and
implement these programs in the activism, where are the dissenters, where are
all the folks who are outraged about China on every article?

Without mainstream activism against surveillance capitalism, NSA surveillance,
secret courts, secret processes and secret orders surveillance will become a
dragnet few will be able to escape from.

How can we hold China accountable for the same things we are doing? The least
that can be done by the tech community is try to get Snowden back with full
honors, but like Assange he lies discarded with zero activism, and even
demonized in some sections of the press as a 'traitor' and here we pretend to
care about these things.

------
bobjordan
I'm an American, own and operate two Chinese companies (an
operations/engineering consulting company and a factory). I was here when
Google left.

From the end user's viewpoint, internet censorship has only become more
strict. While VPN access has never been totally unavailable, it can be painful
to use. I've changed my browsing habits to settle for using Bing more than I
otherwise would have. At the same time, I'm thankful at least Bing is here. At
least, Bing provides reasonable access to search results for technical queries
in English. Like, returning helpful answers to Stack Overflow programming
questions. Baidu is useless for this.

From a business point of view, to give you some sense of my perspective. I'm
not operating with corporate deep pocket money, own 100% of my company,
bootstrapped, sales between $1-$3M USD/year for past five years. At this
point, I guess I fit into a class of entrepreneur best labeled "multi-national
small business owner". It is a tough segment to try to operate in. It requres
a complex business structure with entities in several countries (now in China,
Hong Kong, and USA). Lots of filings and tax issues to deal with. Being an
American makes it even harder with rules and regulations.

So I read this article from the viewpoint of my own biases and experiences (as
we all do).

What struck me was, the EFF takes a pain to focus on "the public, Google’s
users, and Google’s employees". Further, they ask - "What sacrifices will
Google make to its own operating practices in order to enter the Chinese
market? Will it have to comply with China’s internal strict regulations, and
how will these compromises affect its offerings outside of China?"

From my view, first let me just be frank, China does not give a fuck about
Google. If Google comes to China, it will not change China's policy in any
way. If Google does not come to China, it will have zero impact on China's
policy, in any area.

So to address the first question EFF raises. Yes, with every company that
comes to China, the company must adapt to China, not the other way around.
There will be many sacrifices and changes to operating practices. As there are
for every company that enters China.

For the second question. Yes, to compete here in China, Google will have to
adapt to China's strict regulations regarding the things they do not want to
be discussed. But, China is well aware of how to operate with separate sets of
rules. Hell, they invented "One country, two systems" by integrating Hong
Kong. It will not affect Google's offerings outside of China. But while inside
their walls, you got to follow their rules.

Last, Google has direct competitors that are in China. This EFF article makes
no mention of "shareholders" or "business". But, Google has the responsibility
to their shareholders to enter new markets to compete where there is a void.
It is not Google's responsibility to fight China. As far as human rights,
censorship, etc, that is not Googles fight either, but one thing is certain,
choosing to avoid China cannot help things in the future. If you are not here,
physically inside China operating, there is zero chance you can have an
impact, should the time ever arise.

Net/net. I think it is better for all parties to have Google back in China.

~~~
Eridrus
Is there anywhere I can read about Bing in China? My attempts to Google this
before seeing your coent led to contradictory claims, like Bing being blocked.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Even USA bing shouldn’t be blocked. You could always try to Bing bing rather
than Google bing.

------
gonyea
Why? It’s not like they’re using slave labor. Google will reveal their plans
if and when it suits them.

~~~
nasoieu
Some people believe we have to apply the same Western, liberal standard to all
nations of the Earth.

~~~
phobosdeimos
That would imply that there actually IS such a thing. The West is not a
monoculture. The political and cultural differences between the Netherlands
and the US are as vast as the cultural and political differences between the
US and China.

------
phobosdeimos
I'm seeing a lot of anti Chinese propaganda these days. I come from a small
country whose first priority is always the economy so it seems awfully
shortsighted. China isn't going to disappear you know. Best learn to get
along.

------
AndrewKemendo
I said this on another thread, but it bears repeating:

If you do interesting or novel technical work with a Chinese company,
especially on things like AI, it will be used by the People's Liberation Army
and the Ministry for State Security. You can almost guarantee it.

So if you don't want to work on technology used by a military, then don't work
on technology with any Chinese based company.

------
scarface74
Why does Google anymore _need_ to come clean than any other American business
that does business with China?

~~~
gurkendoktor
Because a future Google that is susceptible to blackmail by the CCP is
dangerous in a way that most other companies just can't be.

Gap, at worst, can be ordered to change their t-shirt designs[1]. But nobody
considers crappy t-shirts a source of truth, unlike Google Maps or Google
Search. What if (when) China asks Google to apply censorship outside of China
in order to stay in the Chinese market?

[1] [https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/15/news/companies/gap-
tshirt-m...](https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/15/news/companies/gap-tshirt-map-
of-china/index.html)

------
SZJX
Absolute BS. Don't Google censor tons of results already according to the US
law? Dare they show any pro-ISIS website to the American audience? Dare they
stop performing all those DMCA takedowns? What's the fundamental difference
between these two? Each country has its own laws regulating the online space
and neither China nor the US is an exception to this. I really don't think any
of them can offer any sort of convincing response to such questions. Just
another display of typical arrogance and double standards that they have long
shown, nothing new at all.

It's exactly like how people would clamor to censor all sorts of alt-right
websites with glee, but defend all Trump-bashing websites to death. It's not
that I approve of any alt-right ideology at all, but if they are serious about
real "free speech", they need to drop this sort of double standards asap.
Otherwise it's just another laughable exercise in hypocrisy and only labeling
what helps their own interests as "just", exactly what the US government has
been doing overseas in all these decades. Nobody would buy into such nonsense.

------
client4
Is it just me, or on all of the recent China articles is there been a
noticeable increase in newly-created accounts with "quality of local newspaper
comment sections" comments? I'm not super pro China, but there is a lot of FUD
and poor commenting going on.

~~~
Leary
r u suggesting that we are the target of a Russian influence campaign?

~~~
client4
Nice reference of CNN populist talking points. Anyone with a laptop, agenda,
and free time can work to sway public opinion.

For instance, your account is 28 days old. Not to exclude you from the
conversation, but poor comments from new accounts does look dubious.

Ardy42 is new as of 47 days

~~~
paradite
Not to exclude you from the conversation, but your account is newer than mine
and your recent comments look dubious.

~~~
client4
3 years is a far cry from 30 days.

------
dingo_bat
Since Google has compiled with EU censorship why is this a big deal anymore?
Or are we admitting to having double standards when it comes to China?

~~~
icebraining
I don't remember Google's plans in the EU being shrouded in secrecy like these
ones.

~~~
dingo_bat
Oh, can you point me to a list of all the links google has censored in the EU?

~~~
icebraining
No, because those aren't plans.

------
aviv
Why are we going as far as China? Facebook, Google, Apple, Twitter, among
others need to come clean about their censorship of conservative voices right
here in their back yard. All the folks who rallied for net neutrality are now
cheering for the coordinated Big Tech assault on free speech. This needs to be
talked about. Agree or disagree with the voices they are silencing (ie. Alex
Jones), what is happening these days is a dangerous precedent.

~~~
scarface74
It's no "assault on free speech". The right of free speech doesn't mean that
private corporations have to be a platform for it.

The right embraced private corporations having "religious and moral rights"
with the cake shop and Hobby Lobby cases. This is the other side of the coin.

~~~
aviv
Exactly. And look at the uproar that the bakery caused with the constant
mainstream news coverage back then. But now? Silence, and if not silence,
total justification and questioning why Big Tech didn't do it sooner.

~~~
threatofrain
Exactly? Scarface is saying that the refusal to promote a message is also part
of free speech, and an easier case than the refusal to serve gay customers. At
best your response is to ask those who have sympathy towards gay people, "Why
don't you get angry at laws which suggest that businesses have to serve gay
people, even if their religious beliefs tell them that homosexuality is a
sin?"

I also wouldn't be surprised if the thinking behind so many Fortune 500
companies is at least due to a calculation of brand posture going into the
future. A lot of the companies being discussed at the moment are social media
companies, and youth are the ones who can drive a MySpace event.

I also must ask for elaboration as to the Alex Jones brand of conservatism --
does it involve a narrative of white extinction and undeserving blacks? False
flag stories about the Sandy Hook shooting? Does he represent American
conservatism?

~~~
TangoTrotFox
That's a typical but significant misrepresentation of the bakery case. The
baker was/is completely willing to serve gay individuals in any capacity aside
from creating customized cakes for gay weddings. He would have been fine with
the gay couple buying absolutely anything in the store, including pre-made
cakes that could be used for a wedding, and he also offered to create
customized goodies for any other service including wedding showers -- but the
one thing he would not make is the centerpiece cake for the wedding itself as
he felt it would require him to personally 'endorse' their marriage with what
he viewed as customized art, something the price tags these cakes carry tends
to validate.

Most people do not intuitively see wedding cakes as art, but you can see the
issue much more clearly if you view him as a literal artist. An artist
refusing to sell a print of one of his pieces to a gay individual because they
were gay is illegal and absurd. An artist refusing a contract because he felt
the piece requested would endorse homosexuality, which went against his
personal views - is not unreasonable.

\---

As for companies positioning themselves for the future, I think you might be
surprised if you decided to do some searching for information on the aggregate
views of generation z. Political trends in the US are on a pendulum. One side
goes batshit insane in one direction which results in the growth of a major
counter culture which eventually reaches a happy medium but then they
themselves start to go batshit insane in the other direction, breeding what
would now be seen as a counter-counter-culture to people who have lived long
enough. This repeats seemingly to no end. The 60s created the 80s which
created the 2000s which is now creating the 2020s. Probably not coincidentally
that 20 years is just about the length of time it takes for a new generation
to come into its own. Oh well, we can all at least look forward to the 2030s -
Mars and political sanity!

~~~
scarface74
And in the case of Apple - the first company that took action against Jones -
they didn't block access to his website or podcast. They just decided not to
index it.

Edit:

To clarify that Apple doesn’t host the RSS feed. It just indexes it like
Google indexes web pages. The RSS feed is self hosted on another server.

------
yeukhon
EFF complains about this ONLY because EFF partnered with Google
[https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/work-eff-summer-
apply-...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/work-eff-summer-apply-be-
google-public-policy-fellow).

You don't hear Mozilla or Apple complaining about Google returning to China
though. I am not really sure why Google matters in China and how this matters
to anyone. You enter someone's country and you ought to obey the local laws
there. Just as Chinese companies entering U.S. need to respect U.S. laws.
There is no conflict of interest. It's simply a business decision. If people
really care about privacy and what not, Google wouldn't have 50,000 engineers
today. It would be like 1/3 gone at least. But why so many Googlers are
staying anyway? I don't have to spell the answer but I will: $$.

So let's not pretend we are not guilty of being an enabler. To come clean, one
must be totally out of the whole Google business. This means Googlers should
all quit - but trust me, most people won't, even though they cheer others to
stand up. I am not being cynical at all, just being realistic about hypocrisy
and reality.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
> You enter someone's country and you ought to obey the local laws there.

China doesn’t have rule of law, they never had a law about censorship, at
least not back when google left. It was basically the party telling Google
that they had to police themselves and not to talk about what they told them
in public, because transparency is a horrible thing in China.

It’s like a top secret law that no one is allowed to know about but everyone
must follow.

Google leaving China the first place was about bad governance and corruption,
not censorship.

~~~
yeukhon
Google left China because the government favored Baidu and Google could not
stand at the goverance, sure.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Google left China because the PLA was hacking gmail accounts in HK. It really
is simple.

