

Why do the rich keep working?  - TriinT
http://www.forbes.com/2006/05/20/working-rich-pyschology_cx_bn_06work_0523rich.html

======
ctkrohn
Not to be pithy about it, but I think there's some truth to this idea: if you
think you'll just work really hard for a bit and then quit to live a life of
leisure, you probably won't get rich in the first place. Work itself has to
interest you; it can't just be a means to an end.

~~~
TriinT
If you become an investment banker at age 23 and work non-stop for 12 years,
you may be rich by the time you get to 35. You will probably be overweight and
alcoholic by the time you're 35, too. And no amount of money will ever bring
your youth back. Let alone your health...

OK, assuming that you do get rich, you probably will never be able to quit.
You'll be addicted to the money and status. You probably will have a trophy
wife who you rarely see but who spends piles of money on clothes and shoes.
Your peers will be buying bigger houses and more expensive cars. You are rich,
but in your _milieu_ there are many people infinitely richer than you are. You
are jealous. Your money and status become less of a prize and more of an
entitlement. You want more because you "deserve" more. You want to keep up
with the Joneses. You want to show the lads you're a player.

I know investment bankers who look like junkies due to lack of sleep. Some
snort cocaine. They put in 90-100 hours per week. They don't have time for
girlfriends, so they spend money on high-level escorts. They say they'll quit
by the time they're 35 or so, and move to Costa Rica, or to the South of
France. Some say they want to become wine-makers. Others want to open their
own gourmet restaurant. Some desperately want to move to private equity or a
hedge fund. They will never quit. A fat paycheck is a golden cage.

~~~
ctkrohn
Ha, I just turned 24 and I work on Wall Street. I know more than enough about
that lifestyle. You're right, it's definitely a golden cage.

I didn't say I approved of the sentiments in my comment above. It's not a
statement of moral correctness. It just seems to be how things work out on
practice.

~~~
mistermann
This is the first chance I've had to be able to talk to someone that works in
the wall street environment....I've been following the "alternative" economics
blogosphere for many years now (globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com, market-
ticker.denninger.net, etc)

I'm not sure in what capacity you work, but do you see totally corrupt
(opinions may vary on what is corrupt I suppose) things happening on a daily
basis?

To be honest, from what I read, it seems like a den of thieves....any chance
you could spread some light on this issue?

------
anigbrowl
_"I had a guy come to me and say, 'I've got $40 million. Do you think it's
enough?' " White recalls. "He meant, Was it enough to be happy and safe? The
correct answer is no. You won't find [those things] with $4 billion. You're
looking for 'enough' in the wrong place."_

Surely the correct answer is 'yes, of course - put it somewhere safe, pat
yourself on the back for doing well in the financial Olympics, and apply
yourself to other interesting challenges.'

I do not advocate state interference in these things, but I really think once
you've made that much money it's time to ask how much you have contributed to
the general welfare in the process, and if the answer is 'not that much' then
there are many nonprofits and similar that could use your insight and
experience.

~~~
DannoHung
Yep, basically. It's why I don't feel so bad about Uncle Sam getting a fat
chunk of my pay.

I'd be happier if they were _really_ good at not wasting it. But then I think
of all the garbage that I buy and I realize that I sure as hell wouldn't have
spent it any more wisely. And, on top of that, I personally make enough that
I'm basically happy anyhow.

More money would either be more garbage bought or more assets collected.
Assets are nice for the rainy days, but I'm collecting them anyhow.

~~~
nazgulnarsil
you're saying that you're more incompetent than the government when it comes
to using money for the common good. I find this claim hard to believe no
matter how inept you are.

~~~
DannoHung
Yes, here's my reasoning: The Government has the ability to hire subject
matter experts on a wide range of issues. They come up with plans to spend it
and compete with each other about whose plan is the best and try to make
compelling arguments to elected or appointed officials to get funding. The
inefficiencies come from the inevitable systematic abuses of bureaucracy:
nepotism, greed, personal interest, etcetera etcetera. But, they still end up
doing something and it's at least been thought through.

Now, we come to my spending. I'll go through several hypothetical situations.

First, no income tax has been taken from me at all: I spend the money on
stupid garbage (video games, comic books, movies, camera equipment, etcetera)
or squirrel it away in an investment (as I noted, nice to have more, but I'm
making investments anyway). The common good is not served, I have more stuff I
probably don't need anyway, the world falls into chaos.

Second, I don't get to spend my taxed money on myself, but have to spend it
towards the common good as I so choose: I put it towards a pet project that I
think is worthwhile. In my case, it would be to sponsor free programming
education for kids. I always thought the computer classes in school were lame
and I'd like to see kids get a better introduction at a young age. Scale this
up by 300 million people: Nice sounding projects to feed the homeless and
provide specialized education to kids and plant gardens etcetera are supremely
well funded, but there's no public police department, no public fire
department, no public roads, public transportation, center for disease
control, EPA, FDA, and all the other acronyms that ensure that you don't get
fucking raped by some business that has enough money to buyout the private
landowners to do whatever the fuck it wants to do.

Finally, I'm tasked with spending the money in such a way as to form the most
ideal society as possible: Shit, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, can't
someone else take care of this? Thus, the government.

So, no, I would definitely be more incompetent than the government when it
comes to using money for the common good. I would be terrible.

Also, don't go telling me that the private sector would be better at it,
because brother, I've worked in a private organization that's as large as a
small government, and they are filled to the fucking BRIM with bullshit.

Personally, I've always been of the mind that we should be working on
automated systems to handle this sort of thing. Cold, unfeeling automata
dedicated towards the most efficient dispersal of public funds. Unmotivated by
emotional pleas and the suffering of the individual. Steely, ruthless,
determined.

But no one else seems to like that idea and I don't know how to build it.

~~~
solutionyogi
Wow. You left me speechless. In your earlier post, you mentioned that
Government excels at wasting the taxpayer's money and you still want to give
them money for the 'common good'. [Personally, I am scared of everyone who
talks about common good.]

Have you ever thought about why government wastes money? As Milton Friedman
put is succinctly,

There are 3 ways to spend money. 1\. Your money on yourself. [e.g. buying a
car for yourself] 2\. Your money on someone else. [e.g. buying a birthday gift
for your friend.] 3\. Someone else's money on someone else. [Your beloved
government.]

Ask yourself, out of these 3 scenarios, which one will get you the most bang
for the buck? Yes, scenario 1, where you make sure that you get most out of
your hard earned money. And you can bet that there will be tremendous waste of
money in scenario 3, no exceptions.

So my friend, tell me, why should I give my hard earned money to Government
when I know that it will be wasted?

Keeping the waste argument aside, let me talk about your comment that you
think you are terrible at using your own money. Have you thought that not
everyone thinks that they are not good with their money? [e.g. I think I am
good at managing my money]. Just because you are not, is it fair for you to
suggest higher tax rate for everyone? What about my freedom to decide what
should I do with my own money?

Mind you, I am not suggesting that there should not be any taxes. Only thing I
am suggesting is that government taxes & their role in our day to day life
should be minimum.

~~~
DannoHung
You're completely misunderstanding my point: A little bit beyond subsistence,
my money goes towards frivolous expenditures that have a significantly
diminishing ROI in terms of happiness.

I'm not running a business here. I'm just a dude. I don't have profits, I
don't have shareholders, I can't issue dividends; maximizing my assets or cash
on hand isn't going to make me feel a whole lot better. SO, if I am given more
money, it isn't going to actually DO a whole lot for me, personally.

Also, let me rephrase what I was saying about being bad about spending money:
I'm not bad about managing it. I save much of my disposable income. I don't
buy more than I earn. I don't have any credit problems. But when I do spend
money beyond the basic necessities, it is nearly inevitably on things that
aren't bettering me or the people around me. I don't make the world a better
place when I dispose of my income. And if I had more money to just SPEND, _I_
wouldn't actually be any happier for it.

~~~
solutionyogi
Fine, if you want to give your money to Government, please do so. But for the
love of God, don't suggest that everyone else should also give their hard
earned money to the government and that government should raise taxes.

~~~
DannoHung
I didn't say that I wanted to raise taxes. I said I don't mind giving a fat
chunk of it to the government.

If someone decides to not pay their taxes though... well, I dunno, I don't
think they should be surprised when they get charged with tax evasion.

------
gizmo
Rich people keep working because they know they make a difference. They
believe (almost without exception) that the company won't be able to function
without them; that the company depends on them (only very rarely the case).

When people ask "why do the rich keep working", the implied question is "why
do the rich keep working when they don't HAVE to?". But that implies that work
is punishment, a thing you have to do to enjoy the other things in life. This
tends not to be the case for high level executives who travel the world, meet
lots of people, command thousands of people, and so on. Knowing that you make
a difference trumps almost everything -- because it gives your life meaning.

A side issue is that many people, if I had to guess at least 10% of the
world's population, is obsessive by nature. They don't want a balanced life,
they want to focus the bulk of their time on one thing, and one thing only.
Most people who are this way realize this before they're adults. I'm pretty
sure that most rich people are obsessive about their work, and I think they
know that if they were to quit they would end up doing something else with
equal vigor, but they would contribute less to society. To continue work,
given these specific assumptions, is the rational thing to do.

~~~
pbhj
So you don't think it has anything to do with greed? Not even for some? Having
more than those around you, "achieving higher status" if you prefer, appears
to motivate a shedload of richer people.

"But that implies that work is punishment, a thing you have to do to enjoy the
other things in life."

And you assume that if you work it has to be for remuneration. It's possible
to work for free in very many beneficial ways. A lot of charities would
welcome a highly skilled financier, say, or a world beating programmer who
wanted to donate their time. One could also as CEO choose to take the same
wage as the cleaner (minimum wage probably).

"Rich people keep working because they know they make a difference."

What, all of them? How about the banking leaders that just destroyed half the
worlds major economies between them. They seem still to be "working" and
receiving 8 figure bonuses in some cases.

"Knowing that you make a difference trumps almost everything -- because it
gives your life meaning."

You sound like a motivational speaker. What difference precisely? Making
people happier, more content, healthier, more fulfilled? Any westerner on
greater than average pay in their country could choose to make even more of a
difference and live comfortably whilst donating all their above-average income
to others in need.

If it's all about making a difference then why don't the rich choose to be
less rich and make more difference. Your analysis doesn't add up IMO.

Edit:typo.

~~~
anigbrowl
You raise reasonable questions. It's a sad fact that some people get very rich
by exploiting the commons and depend on zero- or negative-sum strategies to
increase their wealth.

------
emontero1
A distant uncle replied to me like this when I, being 9 years old and yet
extremely curious, asked: "Why do you keep working everyday, uncle, when you
have a gas station, a pharmacy and 4 other businesses?". His terse answer
confounded the living hell out me: "Because working is lots of fun, kiddo.
I'll keep starting businesses until there's no more fun in doing so."

Memories of our conversation are still vivid. That was 17 years ago. I finally
understood what he meant when I got my first job and started making my own
money. If you're passionate about your job, money will be nothing but a nice
perk instead of being the reason you wake up early every morning.

~~~
pbhj
"If you're passionate about your job, money will be nothing but a nice perk
instead of being the reason you wake up early every morning."

I'm passionate about my job. Money is the only way my family can live, we need
to eat, drink, have shelter at least.

Your statement should be "If you're passionate about your _well_paid_ job, you
won't need to think about money, it won't seem like a reason to do anything
...".

A dose of poverty would see you right.

~~~
emontero1
You're missing the point entirely. I'm not questioning money's importance. We
all have families and responsibilities. Money is the only way in which we can
provide for our loved ones. However, if the first thing on your mind every
morning is money, well, I don't envy you.

Also, I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination. I've been working
nonstop since I was 17 years old. I've never stressed about money though.
Maybe I'm just lucky I guess.

------
geezer
According to a well-known psychological research (google for it and I'm sure
you'll find some links), a subject is given the following two options. (1) The
subject earns 500k per year while all his friends and neighbors earn 1M. (2)
Subject earns 100k per year while all his friends and neighbors earn 50k.
Majority of subjects choose the second options.

This explains in part why people can't quit. Because if they do, all their
friends will be making more money.

~~~
anigbrowl
OK, but such a question carries economic implications like inflation. I know
the research of which you speak, but I think it's flawed as it doesn't include
an economic control such as 'the average wage in both cases remains at $30k,
so you and your contemporaries all enjoy a high degree of financial security'.

~~~
maneesh
if i recall, the mental experiment mentions that prices for goods and services
will stay the same...

------
pg
This guy doesn't seem to get that work could be rewarding.

~~~
apowell
Perhaps the article would be more accurately titled "Why do the rich and
unhappy keep working?"

I don't think anything in this article contradicts the idea that one would
choose to continue working because they find it rewarding.

If we divide the population of people wealthy enough to choose not to work
into "those who find work rewarding" and "those who do not find work
rewarding", I think this article is exclusively about the latter group.

------
vaksel
Probably because life is boring as hell, without work to take up time, you'll
get bored in 2-3 years of not working.

~~~
gizmo
If life is boring as hell you're doing it wrong.

~~~
vaksel
what I meant, is that there is only so many things you can do

~~~
zimbabwe
Only a few hundred thousand things.

~~~
vaksel
name them, if money was no object...what exactly would you do with it? Chances
are, you will run out of things to name after 30-40 items.

~~~
zimbabwe
This is going to be a tedious list. I'll limit the list to things I can do
without much money, because honestly given any more than a few hundred dollars
the possibilities are endless. (They're endless anyway, really.)

Explore the suburbs with friends, look for parks and lakes, play frisbee at
said parks, play tennis with friends, get really dizzy on the spinny things at
said parks, eat at Applebee's, start conversations with Applebee's staff,
organize a group pelvic thrusting session throughout Applebee's parking lot,
organize late-night group exploration of Lowe's, walk through back alleys
looking for interesting things, make Mario hats out of paper, buy people
flowers, go to foreign restaurants and delis, stay up late at night sitting in
hammocks, see bands performing, take road trips, attend music festivals and
marathons and barbecues, paint, play arcade games, mess around with old
consoles/computers, play tabletop games, romp through woodlands, play with
pets, work out, explore houses, look for critters in woodlands/houses, wander
streets at midnight, go to karaoke bars, rent movies from tiny stores, make
music, go to the boardwalk, visit aquariums, watch sunsets, set off fireworks,
go to cities and look for interesting people, spend excessive amounts of money
on dollar menus at fast food places, walk on beaches, collect and polish
rocks, build models, read up on ancient cultures, play pool, learn martial
arts, play board games, sit and hold hands with people...

That's approx. 45 things that I culled from the photos I've taken in the last
month alone. Obviously it's not the whole of what the last month of my life
has been, nor are they the only things you can do without anything at all. The
reason I had to resort to my own photo collection is that given the whole of
possibility regarding just my small, few-thousand-people suburb and the
several surrounding locations my mind goes nearly blank.

I spent years of my childhood exploring just one of the 3-5 parks within
walking distance of my house, and I can say with authority that within that
park lies a series of tall-grass areas called "mazes" that hunters go on, a
pavilion complete with barbecue equipment and charcoal, series of forested
areas that merge with rivers and which are ripe for building things in, two
lakes - one hidden from view - a waterfall leading to a lengthy river hike
with quite a few natural pools, an old abandoned chapel, a dance hall, a
baseball diamond, a mountain overlook, and the entrance to a statewide hike
that I've never entirely walked along. And this isn't a huge park, either: I'd
say it's a few acres at most. Within several miles of that park are multiple
parks that are _much_ bigger that I've never had much of a chance to explore.

On the secluded cul-de-sac where I live there're a good 20 people, including
children ranging from infancy to college age; there's a former FBI agent whose
hobby is landscaping the house in which he lives; there's a devoutly religious
father who travels to foreign countries to help improve lives; there are two
families about whom I know nothing whatsoever, who I would get to know better
if it weren't for the fact that there are a million other things I want to do
first.

Every time I go to New York City, I'm staggered by the knowledge that I could
spend months on a single block of the city and not run out of doors to enter,
people to meet.

That's not even _mentioning_ the Internet, which I'm rather a fan of and which
has millions of communities I'd love to discover. Here we occasionally see
articles on how to clamp down on noise, people complaining about reading
200-300 RSS feeds at a time. I read 13 RSS feeds because I've learned that
it's impossible to read everything that appears online. Even with those 13,
I'm used to spending hours and hours every day exploring new things, talking
to people, getting involved in discussions. Trolling fights with lawyers from
Taiwan. Arguments like this, where I feel the need to write stuff to people
I've never met but still know the names/handles of. People like you.

Tomorrow the plan's to do yoga with some friends, perhaps design a web site or
two, possibly go hiking, listen to an album by the Kinks that I haven't heard
yet, possibly head over to the library and pick out books at random, see if
any of them are worth anything. Chances are much more than that will happen,
but I'm not going out of my way to plan things at 4AM. Things will happen.
That's all I need to know.

If money was no object, I'd go tour the building of every company I'm
infatuated with, then I'd visit all the big cities, drive across country, go
to airports and bus stations and taxicabs, meeting people everywhere. I can't
even _begin_ to think of what I'd do beyond the United States. I want to see
everything. I want to visit small folk villages in Mexico and hitchhike across
Europe and maybe learn some languages... But that's beyond my immediate scope,
because I know that within a dozen miles of where I'm sitting now, there's a
place where I can learn to swing dance and ballroom dance and jazz dance and
ballet, and there are jazz clubs and garage spots for screamo bands, music
stores where people could tell me how to play any instrument I can get my
hands on (music stores that have HARPS in them. Isn't that awesome?), pool
halls and barbershops and supermarkets and florists and lots of things I've
probably never even thought to think of. I could spend my life in this
miniature suburb and never run out of things to do. A barber who's an old
friend of my mother's and an old middle school music teacher who plays the
flute both spent their lives in this town. I don't think I want to do that,
but I know that's always an available option. And jeez, I haven't _begun_ to
talk about the various options available given a gorgeous girl and a full gas
tank and a picnic blanket, and that's probably another few lifetimes worth of
things to try out.

Haven't you ever felt these moments, where you think about everything in
existence and feel, like, holy SHIT, there are six billion people in the world
and if I wanted to I could meet any one of them? I'm having that feeling right
now. Like, I'm writing this to you, and I don't even know you, and you don't
know me, but each of us is living a completely different life and we think
completely different things, and if I were to meet you we wouldn't know
anybody in common or any of the same places and we'd each be talking to a
person with a lifetime's worth of fascinating things to explore. That is so
cool I can't quite imagine it.

I'm sorry if this was an excessive response to your inquiry, but I think it's
silly to say there are only 30-40 things to do. I can think of 30-40 fun
things to do without getting up from this couch alone, though I'd rather you
not ask me to list all those things.

~~~
nazgulnarsil
this is discrimination. stop making me feel bad with your richness of
experience hate speech!

~~~
zimbabwe
If you're ever worried, do what I did: Make it a goal to take a picture every
day of something you did. Could be as small as yardwork. Just try to make the
picture interesting, even if you're not doing anything interesting. If you
can't get an interesting picture doing what you're doing, try and carve out 30
minutes to do something fancy.

Lots of it is also a matter of difference of opinion. I used to read some
developers' personal blogs and every time they posted a photo, I'd feel some
weird envy, even when it was stupid photos. "Oh, man, he and a friend went to
_buy some milk_! I hate that I'm inside living a boring life!" The difference
between "Damn it, got to buy some groceries..." and "Voyage to the grocery
store!" is more one of perspective than it's one of doing exotic things.

~~~
Ardit20
How exactly do you explore the online communities though?

~~~
zimbabwe
In some cases, I just like being part of the talk. Right now that's Hacker
News and Something Awful, because Reddit people frustrate me and the idea of
losing days to Metafilter scares me. I'm also a little obsessive re:design. I
like clicking every link on every web site to see where it takes me.

In a lot of cases, I like going through a site's history, reading up on its
culture. I've spent a day or two going through the YTMND wiki, for instance,
and right now I'm looking through the Let's Play Archive, which has quite a
lot of fascinating stuff. My favorite moment there so far is
[http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/OregonTrail/Update%2021/index....](http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/OregonTrail/Update%2021/index.html),
an Oregon Trail run where, to decide a single action at a river, people wrote
a hundred or so poems stating their opinions.

------
xenophanes
Why do the rich keep working?

Let me rephrase the question:

Why do people who like working end up rich?

------
edw519
"The thought of having to sit still [and deal with] their inner demons is
terrifying,"

Reminds me of the time when I went on a Tony Robbins retreat in Hawaii with
800 other people, including several Fortune 500 CEOs. Our team had 39 people
including 1 of the CEOs. We did quite a few "physical games" to build team
skills, trust, and overcome personal barriers, including firewalking. One of
the games was climbing a 50 foot ladder and jumping off (tethered, of course)
to catch a trapeze. 38 people did it. The CEO could not. He climbed halfway up
the ladder, started crying, and climbed down.

It was stunning and a little embarrassing. We had been deferring to this guy
for 4 days and there he was in front of us, totally exposed, probably for the
first time in years.

There were many guesses about what had happened; I never really found out. But
one thing was sure in my mind; he would have never let something like that
happen at work.

------
Arun2009
Maybe we're just programmed by evolutionary forces to work? Perhaps doing
something creative releases endorphins (or something) that causes us to be
addicted.

------
pmichaud
Most people believe in the game -- they really buy it on a visceral level.
That's true for the rich and poor alike -- it's the rare soul who "gets" that
it's a fun house, and still chooses to participate. It's just a ride as Bill
Hicks used to say... but most people don't get that, even if they drive a
Rolls.

------
nazgulnarsil
I have extremely specific monetary goals. Once these goals are met additional
money is worth less to me than my time. it's the marginal value theory of
money. each additional dollar is worth slightly less than the one before it,
until you reach a point where additional dollars have no value.

------
xsmasher
If you're that dedicated to your work, it's possible that you should not have
children. Why start a family if you're not going to spend any time with them?
The social pressure to spawn is strong, but not insurmountable.

------
rokhayakebe
Because that is what they love.

Most of these people's wealth is a byproduct of their work. They were probably
not working to get rich in the first place. They were doing it because that is
what they knew best and were dedicated to it. It does not have much to do with
money.

Some poor artists work just as hard and that affects other people around them
too.

Hence the question should be "Why people (rich or broke) who found their
passion can't stop working at it?"

------
quizbiz
Because "the money was a nice side effect of their passion". \- eli_s

------
erlanger
If you stop doing what makes you feel alive, you will die. Making a huge deal
or saving/earning a ton of money are some of the most exciting things you can
do, as long as you don't lose perspective. What can I say, I'm a shameless
capitalist.

------
100k
Comment on taxes in 3...2...1...

