
The Disappointing Surprise From Apple - Udo
http://www.amberweinberg.com/the-disappointing-surprise-from-apple/
======
rauljara
I do think Apple was right to remove support for their crappy reader. In any
domain where you have tons of options (like rss readers) I'd rather have no
feature than a poorly executed one. No feature means I'll go out and get a
good version of it. A poorly executed feature (especially from apple) means
I'll probably put up with it longer than I should.

However, given that they were going about destroying access to user's data
(the collection of rss feeds), I think the classy move would have been to run
a script on install that checks if the user is subscribed to any feeds. If
they are, export them into a well formatted file on the desktop, and give the
user an alert through that highly touted new alert system, and give them a
link to the app store that searches for rss readers that can receive the
exported file. They'd get to introduce a bunch of new features that they seem
to be very proud of, and they wouldn't destroy[1] a user's access to their own
data. Which does seem like a pretty big deal to me.

[1]Yes, I know she was able to access her data eventually. That seemed like an
unacceptably difficult process to go through for the sort of users Apple is
trying to appeal to.

~~~
paupino_masano
They didn't destroy the data [1] but regardless a migration path should have
been provided. It wouldn't have been to much effort to check to see if they
used the RSS feature and then basically tell them "this feature is not
supported, but we see you use it - how about we make an export so you can use
one of the other great readers out there". The upgrade from Snow Leopard to
Lion did something similar when it decided to change the trackpad direction,
so the functionality to notify the user is definitely there!

[1] Sorry: I do see that you mention that later on. Though, in general I'm not
sure why so many HN comments think it did when the article said that it was
still available?

~~~
bad_user

         They didn't destroy the data
    

No, they just left it hidden and in an unreadable format.

~~~
jopt
The version that created the data reads it just fine. The new version just
isn't backwards compatible.

~~~
ars
The correct thing to do is give a warning before the upgrade:

"This new version can not read your old data. Please export it before
continuing."

Does Apple provide release notes for the OS? Did they at least document this
in the upgrade/release notes?

------
jws
We've found the only user in the world that used RSS in Mail! I feel a bond,
as I was apparently the only user of RSS in Safari. (as confirmed by informal
polling of friends and family).

I moved my stuff into Google Reader and also went to Reeder on the Mac, but
tried Newsify on the iOS devices and have to say that a custom newspaper is a
much better experience than the hundred takes on master-detail drill down you
find in the typical RSS reader.

I resent Apple killing my feature, but I am better off going forward. I should
have switched long ago. And I don't live in Stockholm.

~~~
jseliger
And I'm the last person who uses the NetNewsWire desktop client. It's kind of
buggy, and a better user interface would be nice, but it works well enough
most of the time.

~~~
msbarnett
I still use it too.

It's the only RSS reader I can find for OS X that lets me set it up in my
preferred "River of News" display format (what NNW calls 'combined view'). All
feeds in one big stream, no 3-panel Mail-style separation of titles and
content. Just scroll and read.

If anyone knows a cleaner, less ugly, less buggy RSS reader for OS X that can
display feeds in this way, I'd love to hear about it.

~~~
jfb
Reeder. It unfortunately syncs with Google, but otherwise, it's tops.

~~~
msbarnett
Really? Nothing in any screenshots suggest it can be set up this way.

Instead it looks like there's a list of synopses on the left which you must
click to view a full story on the right?

~~~
jfb
I navigate without mousing:

<https://homonculus.net/images/reeder.png>

What Reeder shows on the left is the summary of the article; one can read the
original by right arrowing. Many of my feeds put the full article into the
summary. I navigate up and down the list (which is all of my feeds sorted by
date ascending) with the j/k keys. I don't know how NNW does it. Or did it.

~~~
msbarnett
It sounds nice and all, but it's definitely not a River of News style reader.

RoN style is one pane, all of the stories from all feeds laid out, newest to
oldest, in one pane, and you just scroll through them reading when something
looks interesting. Think the way planet aggregators work.

~~~
jfb
Got it. I'd like that, actually. I approximate it now, but I'm not concerned
with the feeds themselves, just the new items. Hmm.

~~~
msbarnett
There's an actual app called River of News for the iPad that does it quite
well, but no Mac version, sadly.

NNW can be configured to work this way, but it's a bit clunky. Everything else
I've seen seems to go with a standard Mail-type setup.

------
javajosh
In a word Amber, yes, of course you are right to feel violated. Apple removed
your data without your consent. The fact that you were able to recover it is
impressive, and far beyond the ordinary user.

The fact that you are in the minority because you used a tool and technology
(RSS) that is passe if not unpopular, should be no excuse to ignore this kind
of treatment. That feed collection was your data, and Apple had no right to
remove it or make it inaccessible.

The correct behavior would have been to replace the RSS reader component with
a button that a) explains what happened, and b) offers a path to save your
data (perhaps a data export or even a link to a MacAppStore app). It would
have been particularly slick for Apple to partner with a 3rd party RSS reader
to support automatic "cross-grading".

This is not a hard problem, and the fact that Apple didn't even think to solve
it is, in fact, disheartening. Hopefully you (and everyone affected by this)
will get an apology from them and some sort of redress.

~~~
stcredzero
_> The fact that you are in the minority because you used a tool and
technology (RSS) that is passe if not unpopular, should be no excuse to ignore
this kind of treatment._

It seems like just yesterday my NASA rocket scientist friend was asking me
what this new-fangled RSS thing was. I explained, and his response was, "So
they just reimplemented USENET?"

~~~
georgemcbay
Other than the fact that RSS and NNTP are both built on TCP, they have
virtually nothing in common neither technically, architecturally nor in terms
of use case they are trying to solve.

IOW, wat

~~~
stcredzero
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4306232>

In particular, my friend asked what people use RSS for. At the time, lots of
people used it to stay current on news.

------
jaysonelliot
"A computer shall not harm your data or, through inaction, allow your data to
come to harm." -Jef Raskin's first law of interface design

Shame to see the Macintosh violating the first law of the Father of the
Macintosh.

~~~
jshowa
If you read the article, the data wasn't harmed, it was just moved. Therefore,
the law wasn't violated.

~~~
ObjectiveCat
It wasn't even moved, it remained in ~/Library/Mail/RSS/ - it's original
directory and a very logical one at that. It's surprising that a developer
wouldn't have been able to figure this out, considering ~/Library/ is the
directory where all application data and preference files are stored..

------
blumentopf
From the LinkedIn profile of the guy who implemented Safari RSS:

Social-Software Introvert

Apple, Inc.

February 2004 – January 2008 (4 years)

Part of a very small team that implemented the news-reading (RSS/Atom)
features of the Safari browser in Mac OS X 10.4, and the public news-reading
framework for 10.5, used by Mail and 3rd party applications as well as Safari.
I also prototyped some wild and crazy social-software applications I can't
talk about here, and researched technologies like social networking, P2P,
identity systems, and delta encoding.

<http://www.linkedin.com/in/jensalfke>

Obviously there's noone at Apple picking up the slack that Jens Alfke left
behind. He's stated repeatedly on his blog that Apple is decidedly not a
social software company. Which is ultimately the reason why they removed these
features. The reason is not that "RSS is the past" bullshit.

~~~
cpleppert
Wait.. so the reason Apple removed RSS was they don't have the talent to
implement RSS? Apple simply couldn't figure out to implement RSS in a way that
they liked. I am sure they had lots of data about the usage of RSS in Safari
and mail. Yeah they should have offered an export option, but I for one think
RSS isn't going anywhere as a user facing technology.

As for not being a social software company, well; they want to build social
features around existing applications and platforms. Things like iCloud
sharing and even deeper integration of iMessage into existing applications are
coming.

~~~
blumentopf
Check out Jens Alfke's blog post when he left Apple, I really can't say this
better than he did:

[http://web.archive.org/web/20110714114434/http://jens.moosey...](http://web.archive.org/web/20110714114434/http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/01/gone-
indie/)

------
tobiasu
Congratulations. You are now what's called a "power user". That means your
argument is invalid, because normal users don't know what RSS is. Normal users
don't need RSS. RSS is dead. (Obviously nobody has any detailed studies on
this, us software devs just assume that the general user is a blithering idiot
who needs regular reminders to remember breathing)

/s

------
jakejake
I guess I don't understand why people are cheering about RSS being replaced
with tighter twitter/Facebook integration. Seems to be trading an open format
that allows us all to publish for a proprietary one that is tied to specific
sites with which Apple has a business arrangement.

I can understand why Apple wants to do this, but I'm surprised by the RSS hate
from the tech community.

------
larrys
"All this to say, that I still run out and buy the new OS as soon as possible.
The affordability and ease of doing so make it ridiculous not to. But this
time I’m disappointed for one very specific reason."

"run out and buy the new os"

If you are a user to the extent that your usage depends on having access to
all or certain features [1] is probably isn't the wisest thing to upgrade
immediately or even upgrade on the existing disk without doing some testing.

I typically wait some time until the immediate bugs get squashed, and even
then I will try to install on a different cpu, migrate things over and test
before switching over what I would consider my "main" desktop machine (or
laptop).

If you only have one cpu you can take the existing disk and partition it so
you can boot from either the old OS or the new OS. You can setup the new OS
and then use migration assistant to move over your old data. Or you can clone
your existing OS on the partition (using "Super Duper") and then install the
new OS on that extra partition. Which isn't a bad idea anyway in case
something goes wrong.

All this of course takes having enough space to create the two partitions. But
as an alternate you can also attach a USB drive and do the same. That way you
can boot from either and do your testing in a controlled manner. (Note
migration assistant doesn't work when filevault is on so you have to turn it
off.)

The amount of effort you put into this all depends on how critical certain
features are to you.

[1] I have a dns server running under 10.5 Mac OSX and the admin utility (hate
it but have to use it) that runs under 10.6 or above won't allow you to access
the 10.5 server. So I have to keep 10.5 running on a CPU (or as mentioned
above) in order to control that server. Or I have to upgrade the 10.5 server
which I'm not really looking forward to taking the time to do.

~~~
lparry
Please don't use the word CPU when you mean computer. The audience on
hackernews knows what a CPU actually is, and will do a double take trying to
work out what multiple CPUs has to do with running multiple different OS. I
know I did

------
smsm42
"THERE were my RSS feeds! They weren’t deleted at all, just left in an
unusable, unreadable format no app could use." - this is the most important
part I think. Many software vendors - and Apple is definitely one of the most
prominent in this regard - think that if they need to store user data, it's
completely OK to store it in undocumented non-standard way without any
possibility of export. Of course, that enhances vendor lock-in, so why not?
But the users should be aware that inevitably will lead to stories like this -
my software vendor screwed me over and I have no way to recover my data now!
Fortunately, in this case there were third-party tool that were able to export
the data - but in many cases the same vendor would fight tooth and nail with
such tool vendors to shut them down for "copyright", "patent protection" and
whatever else reasons.

------
jopt
Lets not get of topic: A new version of the software refuses to read the old
version's data.

It's unworthy of a modern day app, especially a non-third-party app.

It's especially unfortunate that this upgrade is bundled with a larger OS
upgrade. Likewise that a proprietary format was used for the data.

This falls short of the integrated experience and "just works" attitude that
Apple prizes itself on.

Backward compatibility has never been a strength of Apple's. Floppy, Classic,
PowerPC, and recently optical discs have fallen to the wayside.

The data is not deleted. That's significant especially in principle.

This has little to do with other policies of Apple, such as their "control the
user experience" attitude. Nothing about their policy prohibits handling this
better.

------
sonnenkiste
They also kicked the web-Sharing configuration. :( I got to work and wondered
why my localhost did not respond. I installed mountain lion the night before.
so I thought I have to re-enable websharing but couldn't found the confit
anymore. After some googling I got the answer: it has moved to a so called
"Server" App for round about $20. It provides many things I didn't use ... and
the "old" websharing. :/ Remember Steve's promo quote? "it just works" ... the
new one should be: "it just worked before"

~~~
fsckin
$ cd /web/folder $ python -m SimpleHTTPServer

Free, already on your machine.

------
bstar77
Apple removed rss from Mail because it was pretty crappy. Anyone interested in
RSS should hit the appstore and snag one of many RSS readers that blows
Apple's offering off the planet. When I discovered Reeder I knew my browsing
habits would change forever, it's that much better.

~~~
javajosh
Yes, but this misses the point: An OS upgrade hosed her data. Only the fact
that she is (apparently) a small minority prevents this from being a big deal,
a fact which itself sort of concerns me.

~~~
0x0
Not that it is obvious in any way, but apparently you can still get the list
of subscribed RSS feeds with the command-line tool "pubsub list".

------
lubujackson
Apple products are meant to be used how Apple wants you to use them, nothing
else. It's an all-in decision, either you take the good with the bad or get a
computer that allows customization. "Apple power user" is a sad, unfulfillable
concept.

~~~
smsm42
Not true for MacOS, though Apple is not exactly going out of the way to make
it easier. Closer to the truth for iOS, where all "advanced user" stuff is not
only not made available - but applications making it possible are explicitly
banned. I know there are reasons for that - like if you can do power user
stuff, you probably can circumvent Apple restrictions that bring them that
juicy 30% payment cut - but the fact is the fact.

However, this is the iOS picture, on Mac picture is much better - I could do
on Mac almost every power user thing I did on Linux, albeit I'd have to do
more research to find the proper docs and the proper tools, and some of the
tools may be not free (in either sense).

------
lazugod
One of the comments notes that this was a well publicized change, citing page
9 of Siracusa's in-depth review. I'm sure every affected user will have read
through his entire review before upgrading.

~~~
akmiller
You would still hope that an OS upgrade wouldn't leave your data in an
unusable state! As someone above pointed out, it would've been pretty easy for
the OS install to determine if you had feeds and export them into an open
format and let the user know where they had been exported too so that they may
then do something with it.

I don't think the lack of the feature is the main complaint in the article
it's that her data seemed to be suddenly gone (I know she eventually found it
but it took a third part tool to try to export the proprietary format into
something usable).

------
emehrkay
My problem with Mountain Lion, and Lion, and I cant rember if it were true
with snow leopard, was that I needed to re-install all of my unix dev tools

~~~
waterside81
It's become a ritual for me that I have to rebuild imagemagick with each new
upgraded version of OS X.

------
mikescar
I used Ubuntu for laptops for about 6 years. I moved to Mac because Linux
laptops were no longer allowed for the new company.

I don't really understand the shock from early adopters that core things have
changed. In Ubuntu, I wouldn't compete to update right away. Just wait a week
or two. Why would you do it for Mountain Lion?

Apple isn't really any better than Ubuntu with saying what will 'break' and
what won't. It's either a positive change or a UI breakage, depending on the
person.

------
SG-
While it sucks for the few users that did use RSS reader in Mail.app, the
truth is most people didn't actually use that feature in Mail.app and I
actually like that Apple has removed feature bloat from Mail.app on a feature
that has nothing to do with mail.

I think the only thing they should have done is the first time you start the
new Mail.app is a warning comes up saying your RSS is gone and an option to
export to some "easier to read" file on your desktop.

------
DaNmarner
I wrote a script that solves the problem:
<https://github.com/DaNmarner/ExtractMailRSS>

For direct download:
<https://github.com/DaNmarner/ExtractMailRSS/zipball/master>

------
abruzzi
I have no love for RSS, and even if I did, there are many third party apps
that fill the niche, but I will say (as a regular Final Cut Pro user) welcome
to the club. When Apple does their famous "cutting out the cruft" there are
always users like us that are jilted because they depend on that cruft.

~~~
frankc
So many people are missing the key point...it is never ok to to remove data
without warning.

~~~
smsm42
I think the even bigger point is it's never ok to organize data in a way that
removal of the UI leaves you with no access to the data at all, even though
you could use another tool to do UI if only the vendor gave you proper access
to the data. E.g. if Apple stored their RSS feeds, say, in OPML - migration
would be easy. If they exported the feed to OPML on upgrade - migration would
be not very hard too. Since Apple did everything the wrong way there, the user
had to use 3 tools and spend hours of manual work to get her data back.

This is especially bad coming from the company that is known for their neglect
to BC and overhauling UIs in most radical way. Their developers must have
known the possibility of UI change exists - and still stored the data in a
format that turns this possibility into a major problem for the user.

Compare, for example, to Firefox that stores bookmarks in HTML(-like) file. If
ever something happens to Firefox project or their bookmark functionality, I
can always take the HTML and get the info out with the simplest of tools, and
probably I won't have to, since these tools would already exist - since the
format is easy to use.

~~~
skymt
I don't think Firefox has stored bookmarks in HTML since the bookmark and
history systems were unified in Firefox 3. Now they're stored in a single
SQLite database. The schema is sensible, so it's easy enough for a programmer
to work with, but it doesn't have the automatic portability/transparency of a
text-based format like HTML.

------
JacksonGariety
Feed readers are dead. Not at all feeds themselves, but the process of using a
reader like mail to pull in feeds to a desktop app is going out the window.
When consumers buy products, they should be able to look into the future. If
you choose technology that is a bit behind the times, understand that you
should be careful before upgrading, as old features are often cut from Apple
products.

This happened in every industry, not just the computer industry. The problem
here is that the computer industry abandons old features at a MUCH faster rate
than other industries, but for good reason.

~~~
Udo
> Feed readers are dead.

At least as far as standalone desktop apps are concerned, I think you're
right. I can't even remember a time when I was _not_ using Google Reader. I do
hope RSS-fed reading in general is not going extinct though.

~~~
AndrewDucker
As I got to this page via FeedDemon I think "dead" is an exaggeration.

Sprained seems reasonable though :->

------
pjzedalis
Apple removed it because more and more of their client apps are just desktop
versions of iCloud. iCloud isn't getting RSS syncing anytime soon.

------
jshowa
Honestly, I could see this coming a mile away. I've always distrusted Apple
for a variety of reasons. Probably more than Microsoft.

------
Fando
Complaining about Apples f-ups with RSS feeds is like complaining that Hitler
used to litter. Big Woop!

------
greedo
I don't have a lot of sympathy for her. 1. She could have read up on what was
changing with ML. 2. She could/should have a backup of her data, especially
before an OS upgrade. 3. Her data wasn't rendered "unusable" or "lost" it was
left where the old RSS client kept it. 4. Her real beef seems to be that she
lost the RSS functionality and wasn't told about it.

For all of the commentators saying that Apple should have exported her data to
the desktop in a neat file/folder with an alert, get real. This is such an
edge case that it doesn't warrant the effort from Apple nor from HN.

~~~
jarek
I don't know why this was downvoted. This is a very accurate representation of
Apple philosophy in a nutshell.

~~~
hythloday
No, I'm pretty sure "move fast and break things" is Facebook.

~~~
jarek
And Apple is a shining example of backwards compatibility and concern for the
20%.

Prioritizing tasks, focusing their efforts, and consciously deciding not to
support some users or pursue some customers is _why_ many people on HN hold
Apple in high esteem, and now someone's downvoted for explaining this?

------
brudgers
There are plenty of RSS reader apps.

The fact that they may collect your personal data for future mining shouldn't
concern you.

------
tbergeron
Apple always removed what they found weak and this is a part of why OS X is a
strong and well integrated operating system.

I can't see what all the fuss is about. I remember Apple removing many
features in ten years of usage and it always been for the best.

If you can't stand this anymore, to to the app store where's there's way
better options such as Reeder and NetNewsWire.

------
aprendo
_Removing RSS functionality:_ A defensible decision, I think. Many excellent
third-party RSS readers are available and this fits Apple’s overall theme of
simplifying the OS: there are more system apps but each does less and only a
very specific thing (Mail was split in Mail and Notes, iCal was split in
Calendar and Reminders), iTunes being the big exception. RSS was never a good
fit for Mail, why should Apple have to schlepp around that ballast for all
eternity?

 _Removing user data:_ That is indefensible. There should be a painless way
for users to export their RSS feeds on first launch (an OPML file would be
minimum, better would be some even tighter solution that is not as painful and
annoying as dealing with an OPML file.

(Yes, I know that technically Apple didn’t remove the data – but no one should
be expected to conduct such a preposterous rescue mission for their data. This
is also not meant as a criticism of her, it’s pretty clear that she is more or
less ok with Apple removing the functionality, just not the data.)

~~~
5teev
I would expect a decent third-party solution to scan for folders like this,
just as every third-party browser grabs (or at least offers to grab) Safari's
data.

~~~
icebraining
So, how would e.g. Google Reader do that, exactly?

------
shpoonj
If you don't like a product, don't use it.

If you don't properly research a product, don't complain about its features.

Do some research next time.

Take responsibility for your actions instead of blaming others.

These are elementary principles.

~~~
justinhj
I expect an OS to mostly stay out of my way and let me do stuff. If an upgrade
is going to damage my stuff in some way it's the most minimal of courtesy to
warn me and give me options.

~~~
cpleppert
Mountain Lion changed the internal functioning of mail so rss would have had
to be architected. Yes, I think an export option would have been nice.

------
nayden
yawn!

------
signalsignal
I don't understand what the article is about. Is she trolling for page views?
I don't understand why she considers herself "violated" by Apple. Don't people
make backups anymore?

~~~
irahul
> I don't understand what the article is about.

The article is pretty clear. She was using Mail app for rss feeds and the
upgrade seemed to totally delete her rss feeds and her subscriptions. Mail app
upgrade should have checked if the user has subscribed to RSS, and could have
exported the feeds and subscriptions. The least the upgrade could have done to
notify the user to manually export the feeds and subscriptions before going
through the upgrade.

> Is she trolling for page views?

Trolling isn't defined as _whatever you disagree with_.

> Don't people make backups anymore?

Take backup of what? Taking a disk backup would have given her the proprietary
on-disk blob which only Mail app could read, and now the Mail app refuses to
do so.

~~~
signalsignal
Never mentioned I disagreed with her. Where did you get that assumption?

~~~
irahul
> Never mentioned I disagreed with her. Where did you get that assumption?

>> I don't understand what the article is about. Is she trolling for page
views? I don't understand why she considers herself "violated" by Apple. Don't
people make backups anymore?

Let's try this again. She complained an upgrade shouldn't have made her
existing rss feeds and subscriptions inaccessible.

You said you don't understand what the article is about, she is trolling and
implied what's the fuss about since everybody should make backups.

