
As I run past the RIM buildings, I see these posters - rawreth
http://fightandroid.org/
======
jrockway
I love the quotation. I guess having a website means you make nonsensical
statements and then be quoted on some smear campaign's website?

"This campaign may be the dumbest thing ever posted to the Internet" --
Jonathan Rockway, jrock.us.

Credible!

(Also, while Google ads may have funded the beginning of Android, it has
enough corporate sponsorship now that it could easily outlive Google. Samsung
or HTC could easily take over Google's role if some shiny new Web 2.0 startup
kills it. But I'm not holding my breath. All I can say is man... people on the
Internet are _dumb_...)

~~~
nathanb
Do you think that Android in its current incarnation as quasi-open-source,
free to adopt, would survive? Or do you think it would be death by a thousand
forks, where Samsung, HTC, Motorola, etc. all grabbed their own copy of the
repository and made TouchWiz, Sense, and Blur respectively a core part of the
UI? I just can't see how Android as a device-agnostic OS would survive without
a relatively neutral curator.

~~~
justincormack
An open foundation _could_ work. Imagine Apache Android. Sure there would be
fragmentation, but at the moment the need for apps is pushing them together.
If web apps win then the APIs look a bit different, with more scope for UX
differences.

Not that this will happen.

~~~
Jwsonic
I would assume the other 81 members of the Open Handset Alliance
(<http://www.openhandsetalliance.com>) wouldn't just do nothing if Google went
away...

~~~
d0nk
Exactly, many of the members have too much invested in android to just drop it
and move on.

------
reso
As a resident of Waterloo and student at UWaterloo, I can tell you this does
not represent the opinion of the student body. It is true, UW has got a lot of
benefit from RIM and we are very grateful, but half of us have also interned
there, so know from experience that the company has a lot of problems they
need to work out.

I use an iPhone. Most of my friends have a Nexus S or other androids.

~~~
oniTony
Google's Kitchener/Waterloo office is growing rapidly. Google has been hiring
many of us (UWaterloo students/grads) for intern/full-time positions. I, for
one, welcome our new Android overlords.

------
dlikhten
... every 6 seconds, a BlackBerry device is thrown into the trash(hopefully a
recycling bin) due to the evils of better devices like Android.

Devices like Android smartphones are creating a "better" model when it comes
to user experience, apps, and price, yet how can we define "better"? Is it by
a truly better experience? No. We like to define better as "stfu google, rim
r0x0rs, tr0l0l0l0l0l! I'm not listening to what you're saying! Go away. RIM
ruuuuulz". So next time people tell you that google is better, shove fingers
in your ears and kick him in the nuts, because rim is just awesome.

\---

Edit: Seriously though? TomTom needs to fight google? Thats laughable. Why
wouldent I want to buy a device that costs me extra ($150-400), is bulky, non-
free map updates, and is known for selling user data to whoever offers money
and a good enough usage case?

I don't think google is so bad.

~~~
msquared
I knew a girl that threw hers into the pool (then, foolishly, bought another).

------
brianb722
According to a whois the site is run by the owner of this site:
<http://www.paybuyer.com/>

PayBuyer appears to be an ad network. In other words, the guy could care less
about Android and is just mad that AdSense/AdWords dominates.

It's funny that supporters of RIM have taken it seriously without doing 30
seconds of research.

~~~
SpoonMeiser
Also, it says that directly on the site itself.

~~~
brianb722
Whoops. Just zoomed right past the site's About. Not sure how anyone can take
this thing as more than a publicity stunt.

~~~
Wilduck
They don't claim it's anything more. From their website:

""" 1\. "Isn't this just a gimmick to promote a startup?" Yes, of course,
FightAndroid.org is intended to help a startup (Paybuyer) – a startup that
will indeed damage Google's AdWords and Android if it succeeds. To see why,
view this PowerPoint presentation given to RIM executives in late March. """

------
zdw
I see nothing about "building a better machine" from a technical perspective
on their site, which I'd expect given the byline.

I'm no fan of google's business model (advertising in the vast majority of
cases == worthless noise), but at least they are using their position to
further technology in good ways, which is more than I can see coming out of
RIM.

~~~
chalst
They have a white paper:

<http://www.paybuyer.com/about/white_paper/>

------
paulgb
I think people are taking this more seriously than intended. It's a PR ploy
for a company unrelated to RIM (and as spaetzel pointed out, possibly
unrelated to Waterloo too).

Unfortunately their little PR ploy looks embarrassing to Waterloo, UWaterloo,
and especially RIM. As a UW student, it's a little insulting that they expect
to appeal to protectionist urges to help their own little company, which
appears to not even be from Canada let alone Waterloo.

I hope this is ignored as it deserves to be.

------
nodata
Is this one of those "it doesn't have to make sense, it's just for publicity"
things?

Why are the uni students holding a rally? What connection do they have
to"Paybuyer, LLC" which funds this Adwords competitor?

~~~
rcfox
> Is this one of those "it doesn't have to make sense, it's just for
> publicity" things?

Pretty much.

> Why are the uni students holding a rally? What connection do they have
> to"Paybuyer, LLC" which funds this Adwords competitor?

It's not a rally; they're holding up giant signs to face traffic. I think it
was four people to a sign. (It didn't occur to me to take a picture until I
was already far away.)

This is just a PR stunt from a new Waterloo-based advertising startup. They're
simply piggy-backing on the whole RIM vs Android thing with weirdly-phrased
anti-Android propaganda.

~~~
tytso
It's not even advertising. It's a mashup of the yahoo directory (from the
early 1990's) concept combined with a Publishers Clearinghouse Sweepstakes
model.

There are no ads that are put onto publishers' websites to get paid. In order
for this to work people have to manually go to the web-based "yellow pages"
and then register their intent to buy say, a washing machine, and then that
gives you a lottery ticket where if you win, you have to prove that you have
purchased a washing machine within N days of registering your intent.

So suppose I have already decided to buy a washing machine, and GE, Maytag,
and Kenmore have all bought into this scheme. This allows me to get 3 lottery
picks, which might have an expected value of 10 cents each ($100, with a 1 in
1000 chance of winning, say). Presumably GE, Maytag, and Kenmore will all have
to pay 15 cents, with the startup pocketing 5 cents.

The question is whether GE, Maytag, and Kenmore get 15 cents worth of value.
Remember, I was a motivated buyer who had already decided to buy a washing
machine. The only question was which one. This isn't going to reach someone
who hadn't yet decided that they were going to buy, and so didn't have the
motivation to go to the startup's web page.

To think this would disrupt a true advertising based system, whether it's
Adwords, or even the pullouts in the Sunday morning newspaper is just silly.

~~~
brianb722
Thanks. That was a very helpful explanation.

------
click170
So.. they hate Android. But their explanation of why is to point to some blog
post which by my view concludes that Android is bringing 'perfect competition'
to the marketplace. Soo.. I presume they are against that, but what's funny is
the blog post they point to even discusses how perfect competition benefits
the consumer and how preventing it would be detrimental.

Sounds like the blog post they point to doesn't exactly give reasons to hate
android like they think it does...

------
spaetzel
As a fellow Waterloo resident, supporting local companies is cool. However, I
see no evidence that Paybuyer is located in Waterloo, this page
<http://www.paybuyer.com/help/prove/> has a Arizona address, and the WHOIS
<http://whois.domaintools.com/paybuyer.org> also gives the same Arizona
address.

------
rawreth
More context: As I'm jogging to work, there were students holding up boards
with those posters right in front of the RIM buildings. I feel embarrassed as
a fellow Waterloo student.

~~~
icegreentea
Yeah, cooping in Toronto right now, just asked a bunch of my friends at school
about this... I share your embarrassment. It actually hurts that a company is
trying to manipulate us like this. Not just because it's so blindingly
obvious, but because it will work on enough people.

~~~
AlexC04
Wait, they're doing it and not getting paid by someone to do it? I mean people
(usually ridiculously hot women) stand out on the street holding up signs
telling me how awesome red-bull is.

It's pretty easy to pick up a street promotions crew. The job generally tends
to have Abercrombie-style hiring practices, pays a bit more than minimum wage,
and is pretty flexible.

I'd honestly be shocked if there were people dumb enough to do that for real.

------
bbgm
A new form of Jingoism. This is not how you are going to succeed in the long
term. Even if this is half serious, appealing to the protective, negative
instincts of people suggests that RIM's future is bleaker than I thought it
was

Edit: It's not clear to me though if RIM has anything to do with this.

~~~
rfugger
Nothing to do with RIM. It's marketing for paybuyer.com.

~~~
bbgm
So it's just a marketing campaign trying to appeal to protectionist instincts.
Thanks

------
Darkstar
The website is laughable. The claims made all end in nonsequiturs. Paybuyer is
highly speculative and vastly overestimating its ability to disrupt Google
Adwords, even with their proposed backing from Waterloo and RIM.

Furthermore I don't pity RIM in the least. They made their bed. They chose to
keep their products "business oriented" and got left behind when it came to
innovation and, in the end, productivity. Why should I chastise Google for
opening their platform and offering services for free? Google's model was
clearly a better one at drawing customers in, which in turn fuels their
advertising through use of mobile advertising in free apps.

The website claims Adwords funds Android and that's why it's evil, because it
creates a "moat" around Google that makes it nigh impossible to compete with
Google. I disagree. I believe Adwords and Android are symbiotic. They fuel
each other, and if your company can't compete with Google then DON'T TRY TO
COMPETE WITH GOOGLE. Choosing to do so is a huge risk, though it may net huge
rewards. By taking them on you accept your fate, be it failure or success.
Don't ask us to intervene on your behalf. I gain nothing by backing Paybuyer.

Also, Paybuyer is a horrible name for a company.

------
wccrawford
He hits a nerve, though. The evangelism for companies has been rising at an
insane rate. Why do people feel the need to defend their favorite company
against the encroachment of other companies?

I could understand if their paycheck was on the line. If you write iPod apps
and Android starts taking market share, that threatens you. (Assuming you
can't also write Android apps, for whatever reason.) But most people just go
crazy with no stake at all.

~~~
a-priori
Hypothesis: Brand loyalty is the new Nationalism.

~~~
jackolas
When do we get out Congress of Vienna and World Wars on brands/IP then?

------
namank
OK so after walking past the boards, I think its nothing except a marketing
ploy to get Kitchener-Waterloo residents to support the local team.

Image - <http://twitpic.com/5on93a> Image full size -
<http://twitpic.com/5on93a/full>

The posters say to email the CEOs of Apple, Microsoft, and Tom Tom to stop
Android because these companies have "lost tens of billions of dollars" (wtf
do i care if they lost money?)

RIM building is in the background.

Students/PR firm (some look like students but they also have your typical hot,
bare-waist chick helping) is having a hard time keeping the boards up, the
wind keeps knocking them down. Guy in the orange seems to be calling the
shots.

Drawings look like work of students.

I personally like RIM, really want to know whats going on here.

------
roldon332
I doubt that college students are going to be upset by an open source project
'Destroying Wealth'. Why would anyone other than RIM share holders care if RIM
is loosing market share to Android?

~~~
drcube
You care if you are a college kid who helped develop a competitor to Google's
AdWords and you want to pitch it to RIM and MS. At least I think that's what
is going on here.

------
mgrouchy
Huh a website to promote a startup, by talking smack about google and android.
This is both foolish and deceptive.

I certainly hope that this isn't the new way to do startup marketing.

------
pdenya
I don't really understand this but I'm not sure which questions to ask. What's
the point? Is this just a smear campaign? Why is this getting upvotes?

------
pnathan
I smell the scent of Astroturf.... does my nose delude me?

~~~
petervandijck
Yep. Bad Astroturf at that.

~~~
jackx
I thought it was bad satire.

------
a3camero
Surprisingly, that strip of land they're standing on is actually Waterloo city
property. It's a strange stunt for a service that looks pretty crappy but it
sure did attract a lot of attention from bemused RIM employees milling about
this morning.

------
rtperson
"I know what to do: let's combat our competitor's overwhelming tactical
advantage with faux moral outrage! It's a win-win-win for us!" -- rtperson,
just now, sarcastically.

------
api
The existence of something like this is an admission of defeat.

~~~
canistr
Not really. This appears to be a marketing tactic by a small startup trying to
rile up all the Android fanboys and anti-Googlers in Waterloo; the hometown of
RIM. So I wouldn't say that it has anything to do with RIM PR.

------
tomlin
Looks like these guys have finally figured it out. This campaign is sure to
make Waterloo and RIM look good. Oh wait, no, this is actually embarrassing.

------
docgnome
I'm... so confused. This doesn't actually seem to have anything to do with
android and everything to do with AdSense.

------
moondowner
So, an Ad company (Paybuyer - "a tiny startup with a major technology") makes
a website campaigning people not to use AdSense?

> "Help defend RIM, your city, and universities by joining a rally outside
> RIM's Annual General Meeting"

I feel sorry for those who will actually go there, thinking that by this they
will help RIM, and not that in fact they're helping Paybuyer.

EDIT: One more thing, instead of ignoring this kind of stuff, it gets
submitted on HN. By doing this it get's spread. When someone is trolling and
someone else replies to him, guess who wins. This shouldn't have been
submitted at all.

~~~
kingkawn
Don't you perpetuate it too by responding? Wait, didn't I just perpetuate it
further?

------
blinkingled
So Paybuyer sponsors the website and the website asks people to petition RIM
to buy Paybuyer in order to "fight Android". Hmm.

------
vash_stampy
If your biggest incentive you offer is to disrupt the business another
product, you must not have a very good product.

------
canistr
I have long had a distrust for Google so I can understand the anti-Google
sentiment. If we want a competitive battleground in the market, every player
needs to be balanced. I was one of the earliest Android adopters but now I see
that I must move on to one of the other underdogs (i.e. Nokia or HP).

~~~
rtperson
> every player needs to be balanced

Correction: at least two players need to be balanced. iPhone, to my mind,
provides just such a balance. Trying to boost every single also-ran product
into a position of strategic equity is a waste of time. Right now, RIM is the
poster child for the _Innovator's Dilemma,_ and there's little anyone
including RIM can do about it.

~~~
canistr
You mention 'at least two players' but from your explanation, you seem
satisfied with ONLY two players. I disagree. I'd rather have multiple
competitive players than merely two.

~~~
lusis
I can't recall the name off hand and my googlefu is failing me but there's a
theory that says a system that supports multiple political parties eventually
evolves (or devolves) into two parties.

I think there's a business correlary as well.

Markets aren't designed to support more than one or two players. There's not
enough market share in a given space for it. Eventually you'll have first,
second and everyone else. The people in first and second may change but
there's always a disproportionate market share between number 2 and the rest
of the pack.

You might want multiple COMPETITIVE players but you will rarely see it.
Eventually the minor market folks will quit because it makes no sense
financially to continue in the space.

~~~
kenjackson
_Markets aren't designed to support more than one or two players. There's not
enough market share in a given space for it. Eventually you'll have first,
second and everyone else._

What are you talking about? I've never heard that anywhere before?

How many car makers are there? Honda, Toyota, Ford. Right there is three, and
they're all pretty darn big. And this ignores some pretty large folk like
Chevy, GM, Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes, and other household names.

How many PC computer makers? Dell, HP, Acer, Lenovo. Four, and all pretty big.

How many casual shoe makers? Nike, Reebok, New Balance, Adidas, Sketchers.

Retail stores? Macys, Sears, JCPennys, Walmart, Costco, Target.

There are tons of industries where there are more than two large players. IMO,
it seems pretty clear that there will be at least three major players for
mobile:

1) iOS. Only Apple. 2) Android 3) Some other phone that is licensed to the
same OEMs that make Android devices. They want diversity so that a single
company, like Motorola, can't just become the de facto leader. It's likely
Windows Phone. Longshot is WebOS.

------
_fff_
Woah, two whole signatures on the petition. This is going to change the world.
<http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call_to_arms/signatures>

------
nextparadigms
The part about making ad directories to kill Google is probably the stupidest
things I've ever heard. Also, RIM should embrace Android. They can't fight it.
Certainly not with their own OS, and theirs alone. At best, they might have a
fighting chance adopting HP's WebOS, together with Samsung and a few others.

Together they could easily make a much more successful OS than WP7, and a
worthy competitor to Android. Alone, they don't stand a chance. Nobody does,
except Apple, because Apple has a lot of other advantages besides just an OS.
The problem is they think the only way to be as successful as Apple is to have
your own OS. And that's not nearly enough at this point.

------
kaushalc
This site lists all the ways to fight android except saying build better RIM
products and fight in the market...

------
namank
Um...how is Android destroying businesses again?

And what should I do if I want to help? PS: I have an Android phone

------
nagelwithlox
I'll start fighting Android as soon as RIM makes a phone that doesn't suck.

------
dasil003
Wait, this is serious? It smells like satire, or at best a troll. If you have
a legit startup why in god's name would you act like RIM is the source of
value and innovation in mobile? Why would you wed yourself to a company that's
doing so poorly?

------
mcantelon
Cute marketing campaign. Pretty straight up CHE-UP.

------
djd
please mind my ignorance, can some point out whats the main "reasons" Android
is bad?

------
kstrauser
I'm sure Apple will be first to join the fight against Open Source, what with
all the money they invested creating their Unix systems from scratch.

~~~
kstrauser
I meant that sarcastically. Apple used FreeBSD for much of the Unix
underpinnings of OS X. They used KHTML as the basis of WebKit, which drives
Safari. I just don't think the "fight Android" crowd will win much favor in
Cupertino as Apple seems pretty happy working with Open Source.

