
Wooden bikes - dzedajs
https://materiabikes.com/2018/10/24/why-wood/
======
gameswithgo
The vibration dampening is a red herring. As a point of comparison, the
differences in dampening between various frames/materials is on the order of
~1psi of tire pressure normally. In other words, if you found yourself with
the harshest of frames, you could drop air pressure by 1 or 2psi and be at the
same level as the "smoothest" frame.

~~~
cultus
The gullibility of cyclists is the industry's most valuable asset. In tests,
cyclists cannot tell the difference between frame materials when the frame is
covered.

I think it is just really seductive to think you can get magically faster by a
significant amount just by buying a new frame with that new bottom bracket
that's claimed to be 30% stiffer.

~~~
Overtonwindow
I think this is oversimplifying how changes in material and aerodynamics can
improve performance. A person such as yourself might not be impressed by a
“new bottom bracket” with 30% increased stiffness, but someone who races
might. Every ounce and second counts.

~~~
grogenaut
The problem is like 0.2% of cyclists actually race but it's about 95% of
marketing.

~~~
Joeri
And arguably, if the goal is to get a workout, an easier ride just means
you’ll have to cycle longer to reach your goal.

~~~
TomVDB
Counterpoint: for me, buying an easier (in my case: much lighter) bike, was
the difference between deciding to ride or to not ride at all.

I don't think I'm alone in that.

~~~
CydeWeys
You're definitely not wrong. I can (and have) ridden my cyclocross bike for
hours, which I have no desire of attempting on a Citibike, what I was using
before I bought my own bike.

~~~
grogenaut
Sure but to you and go: you don't need to spend 10k to get a bike that meets
those needs. Anything in the 1-2k range (eg laptop) prices is a very very nice
bike.

Both of my favorite bikes are cyclocross bikes. The first one I got used and
upgraded the componyts to ultegra and bb7 discs. Was around 900 all in.

I may be a bit hypocrite with my second bike which was a factory replace of
the first with a top of the line racing cyclo cf frame (weld failed). But the
cost and some velocity touring wheels (which caused the frame failure in the
first frame by moving stress off the wheels). So to me that bike cost $1200...
But is likely a $4k bike. I don't know if that makes me a hypocrite or just
savvy. But a lot of the bikes I test ride in the 1-2k range we're super nice.
And there were plenty in the 700-1000 range as well (trick in Seattle is to
buy bikes in August when the Google kids and M$ kids are going back to school)

~~~
CydeWeys
Yeah, and I definitely didn't spend close to that much on it. It would still
hurt me to have to replace it though, hence my preference for not locking it
up outside. My point was more that, based on how I use it, it could've been a
$10K bike.

I have several hours of work invested into my bike too, having installed
proper fenders, a rear rack, and some safety equipment like lights and bells.
That plus the ~$700 I have in it all told would not be enjoyable to replace.

------
cuban-frisbee
I use a bike as my primary transportation (I live in a very, very bike
friendly city) and I don't think I have ever seen a wooden bike.

Vibrations from the road is not something I've ever considered since it has
not been a problem in any of the bikes that I've had.

My primary considerations when considering a bike would be: * Price *
Durability * Cargo support (like basket and rear hub)

~~~
mymythisisthis
If you do a road trip more than 80km, you feel the vibration. I find aluminum
is worse than steel. With short, daily trips, I don't think people notice
vibration.

~~~
dsego
My 2 cents, steel is better, I've had wrist issues with an aluminum bike that
I just don't get with the steel one. It seems to dampen and absorb the high
frequency vibrations.

~~~
halbritt
Generally speaking this stiffness is the result of the tube shapes necessary
to achieve similar strength and stiffness of a steel frame while weighing
less.

A perfect example of this is the Cannondale CAD3. It had a massive downtube
and huge (straight) seat stays as well. It was extraordinarily stiff and
terribly unpleasant to ride, for most. Cannondale improved that to some degree
by using S-shaped seat stays on the CAAD4 making the frame a less-efficient
conductor of vibrations.

Modern aluminum bikes use hydroformed tubes with optimized shapes and
shouldn't really have these problems. Unless you're talking about something
with an aluminum fork. That's just a cheap bike. Aluminum forks are terrible.

~~~
johnvanommen
It's rare to see a fork that's NOT aluminum. Even "carbon forks" are typically
aluminum forks covered in carbon.

Source : I've shortened a lot of forks.

~~~
halbritt
Eh... Most steerer tubes are aluminum for exactly the reason that you've
shortened a lot of forks. In the field, Joe Mechanic is less likely to screw
up an aluminum steerer vs. a carbon one.

As to what's rare, hell if I know. Aluminum forks are fairly common on low to
mid-tier bikes and the cheap ones tend to suck.

------
leni536
_The best materials for damping vibration have low density and low stiffness.
When coupled with the low vibration transfer speed, these properties determine
how well a material damps vibration._

Based on the table below by "stiffness" they mean Young-modulus. None of these
quantities describe damping of vibrations in a material. Also Young-modulus
and density determine the longitudinal vibration transfer speed (this is what
they list in the table). So saying "coupled with low vibration transfer speed"
is a bit misleading.

~~~
CompelTechnic
Yeah, I've still rarely seen honest discussions about what damping means in
terms of structural materials.

If you made a bell out of cast iron instead of bronze, it would still ring,
but it would ring for a shorter duration. This is because cast iron has higher
internal damping than bronze. It is a viscoelastic effect, in that energy lost
is proportional to the speed of movement (strain rate) within the material.

I imagine that most of the discussions about bike frame damping are not
focused on this viscoelastic damping effect, but are more focused on the
dynamic shock absorption effects that are a consequence of the mass and
stiffness differences embodied in different frames. When you change frame
material, you change so many other variables (tube wall thickness, etc) of the
frame that a real apples-to-apples comparison is weird.

~~~
samstave
Does this have to do with the "grainy" texture of cast iron? I would think
that it has more surface-area-like to traverse, thus the vibrational waves
attenuate super fast, as opposed to brass where they can carry?

------
mr_overalls
Engineered wood is truly an amazing material.

While touring a newly-constructed home a few weeks ago, I saw what appeared to
be floor joists constructed out of thin, cheap particle-board. It turns out
that they're made of engineered wood, and are actually stronger than an
equivalent sawed wood beam.

[https://imgur.com/a/3AkZblF](https://imgur.com/a/3AkZblF)

~~~
abakker
Engineered wood and chipboard/ Oriented strand board (OSB) are a very
different animal that particleboard or MDF. Each has their purpose. True
particleboard is a very crappy material, best used for ballast and being
cheap. MDF is smooth, stable, and machinable, and OSB provides a lot of
tortional resilience.

For any home woodworkers, I don’t recommend working with OSB or particleboard.
However, OSB is moderately waterproof, which neither of the others is.

~~~
samstave
In the 80s, in Tahoe, we built a tree-fort near my house. My dad was a general
contractor and we had a lot of MDF available to use from his company...

Yeah - MDF and ___SNOW_ __do not a happy tree house make.

The MDF sops up water like a sponge and deteriorates into its constituent
particulate... which really sucked because our fort had two levels....

We built a house on the truckee river and there was a giant glue-lam beam that
was used for the main truss of the roof. It had to be custom ordered from some
manufacturer, and when I asked my dad why we were using that, he talked about
how the glued laminate layers were stronger than a single material beam.

~~~
abakker
A critical part of composite materials is that they are dimensionally stable.
They don’t warp, elongate, or shrink, which is better than true wood. The glue
and different grain orientations counteract the normal movement.

The grain patterns in OSB look a lot like those in parts made of forged
carbon, and provide a similar purpose.

------
rekshaw
Looking at the test results: 4-6mm permanent deformation when dropping it from
18-20cm? That doesn't seem very good, especially for a city ride with frequent
curbs, small steps, road gaps, and a heavy rider like myself (92kg).

~~~
chrisseaton
Does that mean if you drop something on the frame you'll get a little dent?
Since it's wood? It's not a structural problem is it? Just like a cricket bat
gets dents each time you hit a ball but it still works fine.

~~~
hwillis
Here's a video of this test being performed on another frame:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCU7VT9fOpo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCU7VT9fOpo)

With a 20 cm drop the velocity is 4.95 m/s, or a pretty average bicycle pace
(11 mph, 18 kph), ridden directly into a wall. All things considered, a 4-5 mm
deformation isn't that bad. As long as it isn't splintering or splitting,
which would be dangerous, the bike isn't going to see much forces in that
specific direction. Rider weight doesn't matter because the rider will
immediately be thrown over the handlebars.

In more realistic scenarios like hitting a curb or dropping the bike, the
force will be much more vertical, which will give a several-times-higher
mechanical advantage due to the fork rake. The tires will also absorb a lot of
the shock loads.

In general wood doesn't lose strength from being beat up, no. Wood
construction standards (which admittedly, I know only the basics about)
usually assure you that dents and surface defects are not a big deal. The
strength in most woods (particularly soft woods) comes from the fact that
they're very fibrous and anisotropic, so when they're dented it usually moves
the fibers around without actually breaking them.

------
jefftk
I would expect them to have problems over time with the wood-metal joints,
since they respond to heat/humidity changes differently. This is often a
problem with musical instruments.

------
danburbridge
Ride comfort (on a rigid bike) is primarily a function of the tyres
(size/inflation/construction).

A bike with cheap 23c tyres at 150psi will rattle the fillings out of your
teeth.

The same bike with decent 25c or 28c tyres at e.g. 50-70psi (depending on
rider weight) can float along with a magic carpet like ride.

~~~
Yetanfou
Why call those 23c tyres "cheap"? Why mention price at all? Ride comfort is a
function of tyre size, not tyre price. You can buy very "exclusive" expensive
23c tyres, pump them up to 7 atm. and have just as hard a ride as the person
who just overtook you on his "cheap" 23c tyres.

That "magic carpet" ride does come at a price but it is not monetary: the
softer the tyre, the more resistance and with that the slower the ride.

~~~
_Wintermute
> That "magic carpet" ride does come at a price but it is not monetary: the
> softer the tyre, the more resistance and with that the slower the ride.

Unless you're riding on a velodrome, pumping your tyres up to 120+psi doesn't
decrease rolling resistance, infact the the opposite is true. If the tyre can
deform around small bumps it rolls much more easily. This is why very
expensive and fast tyres have casings with a high thread count (sometimes even
made of silk) so they are more supple.

~~~
Lio
Fast Fitness produced a little spreadsheet to calculate optimal pressure based
on tyre width, bike+rider weight and a very granular assessment of surface.[1]

Something else to take into account is the aerodynamic trade off as tyre width
grows. I think I read somewhere that 25mm is roughly the sweet spot. What you
gain in lower rolling resistance by going up to 28mm you loose in drag. That's
a bit anecdotal (sorry) but I have heard it mentioned in a couple of places.
The best source I could come up with was from Zipp's web site.[2]

Of course that might well be worth it to be more comfortable if it means you
can keep your body in a more aero position as that will dwarf any loss from
the tyres (again a guess).

Hopefully there's some numbers somewhere to back that up. Maybe Bicycle
Quarterly or Tour Magazine might be a good bet for anyone interested.

Also
[https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/](https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/)
is always very interesting ...assuming you obsess over bike tyres as I'm sure
everyone does. :P

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clk_LLBYFzA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clk_LLBYFzA)
[2]
[https://zipp.com/support/faq/faq.php](https://zipp.com/support/faq/faq.php)

------
seotut2
Funny how the website only highlights the advantages of wood as a material,
and plays down its disadvantages. Namely, a stiffer, more rigid frame is more
efficient. I personally loved how my aluminium road bike rode, more so than
steel, particularly because I can feel the road, and my pedal strokes have a
more direct feedback.

If a frame absorbs some of that vibration, it is naturally going to absorb
some of your energy. So "harshest" ride quality isn't exactly the term I'd
assign to aluminum.

~~~
mcv
I guess it depends on the kind of bike experience you want. I see people
riding extraordinarily impractical bikes every single day.

Of course that would make wooden bikes a matter of taste, and not superior by
any stretch of the imagination.

~~~
michaelmior
> not superior by any stretch of the imagination.

I think it's safe to assume each rider has a different utility function, in
some cases drastically different. "Extraordinarily impractical" bikes may very
well have other upsides for a particular rider that outweigh the disadvantages
for them.

~~~
fifnir
It's also safe to point out that the vast majority of people for the vast
majority of topics don't know and don't care. Don't tell me the people who go
around cycling on tiny bikes with their heels on the pedal and their knees
reaching their throat have found some kind of alternative definition of
practicality...

~~~
michaelmior
I didn't say anything about an alternative definition of practicality. I said
that practicality might not be as important for some people.

------
Emma_Goldman
Interesting idea. Unconscionable price.

I don't think you could justify spending that amount of money on a bike unless
it is one of your life's deepest passions. Which seems rare.

Does the quality of bikes really change that much when you go up the price
range, for amateur users?

~~~
tokai
€3000 is nowhere near the ceiling for expensive bikes, even for amateurs. I
know plenty of people that have multiple bikes in that range and beyond.

If you want specific solutions things often get expensive. And yes there is a
world of differens from a €1000 bike to one that costs €4000.

~~~
rhinoceraptor
It's also easy to spend quite a bit extra on a bike once you have it. You
almost always need to replace the saddle and pedals, so that's about $200. You
get a bike fit and decide you want to change your handlebars and stem, so
there's another $200. A year or two later, you want to upgrade to a set of
lighter wheels, and that's $500 or more, easily.

------
lower
They don't mention that wood is quite a bit heavier than other materials.
Their road bike frames weight 2.5kg, where modern (and much cheaper) carbon
fiber frames come in below 1kg.

~~~
markmark
Yes, every time I've seen an article on wooden bikes I've looked and they are
crazily expensive while being ridiculously heavy. I also tend to think they're
ugly.

------
goodoldneon
Hopefully they never have a fire sale.

------
justjash
I think they look cool and everything, but it still doesn't seem very
practical for real use. Maybe if you are just occasionally cruising around on
a nice day. Most people don't do very well with bike maintenance and I assume
this would be a major issue with a bike like this.

------
Overtonwindow
It’s helpful to understand that, like carbon fiber, it’s all in the epoxy
resins. That’s where the strength and durability ultimately come from.

------
tcgv
I wonder if wooden bikes bring any safety concerns in the event of a crash,
since when wood breaks it can become reasonably sharp, like a spear.

~~~
blakblakarak
I doubt the risk is any worse than with carbon fiber.
[http://www.bustedcarbon.com/](http://www.bustedcarbon.com/)

~~~
samstave
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTfu0hjVtzE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTfu0hjVtzE)

Carbon bike disintegrates at 107 MPH

------
Carpetsmoker
Website seems down at the moment. This still works:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20181121111648/https://materiabi...](https://web.archive.org/web/20181121111648/https://materiabikes.com/2018/10/24/why-
wood/)

------
sergiosgc
I don't understand the market for bicycles in the thousands of euro price
range. Bikes get stolen often enough for me to never be relaxed leaving such a
bike outside a shop or caffe or such. If you can't leave the bike anywhere,
it's almost useless, except perhaps as a virtue signalling device.

~~~
systemtest
I live in the Netherlands and have not had my bike stolen in 25 years. Just
use a good lock and only park in secured parking locations with gated access
and cameras.

And don't buy a bike without knowing the full history and paperwork, otherwise
you are shooting yourself in the foot by supporting criminals and raising your
chance of having your bike stolen in the future.

~~~
mrsuprawsm
I also live in the Netherlands, and if I restricted myself to only parking in
secured parking locations with gated access and cameras, I would only be able
to cycle from my office... to my office.

This (obviously) precludes you from cycling anywhere you might want to go
(home, the shops, your friends houses, a restaurant, a bar, a cafe).

If you restrict yourself to parking in locations with cameras (e.g. stations),
your bike will still probably get stolen, especially if it is expensive (I
know people who have had their bikes stolen from station bike parks with
cameras). I myself had the front wheel stolen from my bike that was parked
between 3 CCTV cameras, next to a busy metro station, next to a shop with a
security guard, and across the street from the main police station in the
city.

~~~
systemtest
If I go to a bar or shop I will park my bike in a nearby secured location and
walk the last couple of minutes. At home I put the bike in a locked brick
shed.

------
amelius
I wish someone invented and actually sold tires which can't go flat. I don't
mind if it makes the bike somewhat harder to ride. For short-distance trips
(intra-city) this should be no problem, and could perhaps even save me a visit
to the gym.

~~~
collyw
Tubeless tyres have been a thing for a few years now.

~~~
gameswithgo
tubeless tires can go flat as easily as tires with tubes to close
approximation. (there is some reduced chance of pinch flats but some increased
chance of burping)

tubeless tires are commonly used along with sealant, which helps, but you can
put sealant in a tire with tubes as well.

------
ArrayList
I just don't buy this. At all. Why don't we see the Tour de France peloton
rolling through on wooden bikes? They can afford the best of the best.

~~~
consp
1\. Weight, while it is lighter per unit than CFRP, you need more of it to
sustain the same rigidity making it heavier. You actually need very little
CFRP for a bike and mostly solid or near-solid wooden panels. Quite some of
the minimum weight of professional bikes is additional equipment and the
gearing mechanism. (min weight is a bit less than 7kg)

2\. Stiffness. While not good for every day usage, it is good if you want to
go fast. All energy absorbed is wasted as heat or vibrations (e.g. sound).

------
CarVac
They're not talking about vibration damping, they're talking about attenuating
impulses.

To dampen vibrations as soon as possible, you want very high stiffness.

------
braindongle
Riders can certainly be over-concerned about weight, but uh, it is pretty
important. How much to these expensive beasts weigh?

------
tlynchpin
"The best bike is the one you ride."

------
pplonski86
How durable are wooden bikes?

~~~
dzedajs
Pretty durable. Better than carbon and can compete with aluminium – since the
build is filled.

~~~
ArrayList
> Better than carbon

[citation needed]

~~~
Cthulhu_
Carbon bikes are made from hollow tubes, hollow tubes can buckle / collapse,
plus carbon bikes are designed for lightness, not sturdiness. Wood can take a
beating, but is a lot heavier.

~~~
NikolaeVarius
Hollowness is nonsensical argument. Hollow tubes maximize strength per weight

------
gHosts
Did yer hear about the Wooden Engine?

It wouldn't go.

------
superqwert
Server error

------
beerlord
I think bikes will become a niche sports product, replaced by E-Scooters for
basic transportation around town, and autonomous cars/minibuses for anything
longer.

~~~
collyw
You don't get any exercise with an e-scooter, and personally I go a fair bit
faster than most of them on my bike. Cycling to the work saves me time on my
commute and the need not to go to a gym. My commuting bike (a very basic
mountain bike, cost < 300 euros) has paid for itself multiple times over in
saved money on public transport. Its an efficient lifesytle choice for me.

I can't understand why so few people cycle.

~~~
peterwwillis
> I can't understand why so few people cycle.

Rain, snow, hills, sweat, cargo, parking, theft, [getting hit by] cars,
maintenance.

I have two bicycles, and I'm considering a bikeshare subscription, because
hauling them up and down three floors and maneuvering them around a tiny
apartment is annoying.

Unrelated, but I was hit by a car on bike to work day.

