
Police raid at Zwiebelfreunde: Donor data compromised - hartz
https://tails.boum.org/news/zwiebelfreunde_raided/index.en.html
======
leke
> They are not accused of a crime but considered to be witnesses in a case...

Wow, so the witnesses are treated like criminals now.

~~~
mattashii
I disagree with your comparison to criminals. Gathering evidence for a case
can be done at any place relevant to a case. It is sad to see that they
confiscated materials owned by a witness, but within the bounds of "reason":
they are a related party in said case.

Please note: I do still, from what I read here, find this excessive use of
power. A normal warrant with a request for data could very well have been
enough, but that's guessing what kind of evidence the police expected to find.

~~~
mirimir
They obviously wanted data from Riseup, about some email address. Which I
gather has no presence in Germany. So they went after Zwiebelfreunde.

That seems ridiculous. I mean, there's no way that Zwiebelfreunde would have
_any_ data about Riseup's email accounts. Even Riseup claims to retain
nothing.

I suppose that Zwiebelfreunde might have handled contributions to Riseup from
someone using the targeted email address. So there might be a money trail. But
that's pretty iffy.

------
SOLAR_FIELDS
Is there a link somewhere to a summary of what happened here? A lot of context
is missing that is only coming from the comments in bits and pieces. For
instance the only thing I was able to gather from the comments is that there
was some potential police overreach where someone who collects donations was
raided because the recipient is involved in some illegal/terroristic bomb
related activity. Seems like a lot of nuance is missing here.

~~~
xashor
Zwiebelfreunde is an organization associated with the CCC that do Tor related
stuff. They collect donations for RiseUp, an US based mail/web/… hoster. One
site RiseUp hosts calls for action against a far right political party. Next
to various info, it has instructions on how to build color bombs and other
solely property damage stuff.

This was enough justification for the bavarian police to raid Zwiebelfreunde
and various other hacker spaces and persons linked to them[1]. To illustrate
how overreaching the police was: When the Zwiebelfreunde's hacker space was
raided they found this 3d printed model of a bomb[0], which of course is just
a plastic toy. However, they accused the people in hacker space of planning a
bombing, so they could seize more stuff.

[0]
[https://www.thueringen24.de/img/incoming/crop214771927/17338...](https://www.thueringen24.de/img/incoming/crop214771927/1733832635-w960-cv16_9-q85/Modell-
einer-Atombombe.jpg)

[1] [https://blog.torservers.net/20180704/coordinated-raids-of-
zw...](https://blog.torservers.net/20180704/coordinated-raids-of-
zwiebelfreunde-at-various-locations-in-germany.html)

~~~
tedunangst
> To illustrate how overreaching the police was: When the Zwiebelfreunde's
> hacker space was raided they found this 3d printed model of a bomb[0], which
> of course is just a plastic toy. However, they accused the people in hacker
> space of planning a bombing, so they could seize more stuff.

Not saying they did have plans for a bombing, but if I were planning one, I
would have a few toy bombs around to practice with. Definitely not going to
try fitting a live bomb into a backpack to see if it fits...

~~~
detaro
And you'd have that "toy bomb" look like a downscaled version of a air-dropped
bomb from ww2, seriously? If it is only roughly the size, just use a soda can
or something like that?

------
Chickenosaurus
I hope the judge who approved these actions or the people who carried them out
without approval will face appropriate consequences.

Treating witnesses in such a manner is reprehensible and abusive.

~~~
gant
_laughing intensifies_

I tried that when I got raided and had all my stuff taken. The only thing that
happened was the officer that suggested the warrant as his _first_ measure got
barred from promotions for a year, maybe, they weren't so clear about
specifics.

------
xashor
Consider donating. Zwiebelfreunde needs to pay their lawyers. Note that if you
donate via IBAN, your account data will likely be in the hands of the police.
At least when the next raid happens.

Zwiebelfreunde:
[https://www.torservers.net/donate.html](https://www.torservers.net/donate.html)

~~~
paws
Could you help me understand why it's a problem that your account data would
be in the hands of the police?

I would have thought the reason for the raid was to collect physical evidence
and that whatever the German equivalent to FinCEN[1] is could just pull
anyone's financial records up anytime.

Is it simply fear of being targeted? It's not a crime to donate is it?

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Crimes_Enforcement_N...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Crimes_Enforcement_Network)

~~~
xashor
>whatever the German equivalent to FinCEN[1] is could just pull anyone's
financial records up anytime.

In Germany it is not so easy. Even though the requirement for the state to get
info about somebody's bank account is lowered, they still need some
justification.

>I would have thought the reason for the raid was to collect physical evidence

For that reason alone the police wouldn't have to seize this 3d printed model
of a nuclear bomb. Police stated, that „they might be planning a bomb attack“.
This raid was also a display of power, to intimidate.

>why it's a problem that your account data would be in the hands of the
police?

All people who donated are now on a list in some police department, maybe
called „Connected to left extremism“. As donating is not a crime (both
Zwiebelfreunde and RiseUp are registered organizations in their countries),
this will not lead to prosecution alone.

But just because it wasn't illegal does not mean the police won't investigate
if they feel like it.

And whenever they want to target you (even if the reason is unrelated), they
can look up their lists and tell the judge: „Well, person X donated to this
suspicous looking site, makes him suspicious, right?“ This might play a role
in court or for new justifications (f.e. the police wants to raid your home,
too).

[0]
[https://www.thueringen24.de/img/incoming/crop214771927/17338...](https://www.thueringen24.de/img/incoming/crop214771927/1733832635-w960-cv16_9-q85/Modell-
einer-Atombombe.jpg)

~~~
paws
I'm not familiar with the history of police misconduct in post-unification
Germany, but of course whenever a judge is sympathetic to the police first
it's not good for the accused.

In the US prosecutorial immunity[0][1] is one of the most mind boggling
aspects of the legal system there. I'm curious does Germany have a similar
rule?

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecutorial_immunity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecutorial_immunity)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity)

~~~
xashor
As far as I know, only parliamentarians enjoy immunity in Germany, though the
parliament can detract this right from its members. But just because
police/judges/… _can_ be prosecuted, does not mean they will; in reality, only
a handful of police officers and judges get convicted (mostly only when they
do illegal stuff outside their job). And if they get convicted, there is
hardly any penalty. People keep their jobs, maybe pay some fine. That's no
surprise, the police investigates itself, and of course nobody likes to speak
against their comrades. Also, law enforcement, law maker and the court system
tend to be friendly to each other.

I heard the Netherlands and Britain have a better system, where an independent
party investigates accusations against police officers.

------
deltateam
Payments with Monero use would have solved and prevented the donor data from
being leaked.

I'm still a little distressed at how few web-anything providers accept Monero.

Privacy focused email services and cloud service providers should be using it

but what we really have is protonmail only accepting credit cards and nobody
seems to see the irony in that.

occassionally in the past I have found email and cloud service providers
accepting Bitcoin, and I shapeshifted Monero over TOR to pay for the invoice.
Nobody knows who I am and they received the bitcoin they were looking for.

But that was YEARS ago, 2015? 2016? Seems the possibilities have gotten worse
for now

~~~
gant
As always with great (/s) solutions proposed on HN, it's neither simple, nor
are there any great incentives for providers or is there consumer demand. The
average protonmail user doesn't care and/or know why using a credit card could
be a problem.

~~~
mirimir
That I find hard to believe. Maybe the average Internet user is clueless about
that. But the average ProtonMail user?

I was _shocked_ when I saw that. It's a total disconnect. Why not Bitcoin? All
decent VPN services accept Bitcoin. ScryptMail accepts Bitcoin. Even VFEmail
does.

Even worse, if you create a ProtonMail account via Tor, you can't use even the
free tier unless you provide card and number numbers. That's worse than even
Facebook!

------
thehnguy
So, in an effort to fight off/investigate a “far right” political organization
(it doesn’t matter whether they are or aren’t), the police are using some
scary tactics that one might expect from an extreme political party in power.
Great work there. Way to be the change you want to see in the world.

~~~
xashor
You mixed it up, the bavarian police isn't fighting off/investigating AfD.
Zwiebelfreunde (Friends of Onion) forwarded donations (!) from Germany into
the US based RiseUp. Latter hosts a website calling for protests against the
far right AfD.

~~~
1337biz
So they were most likely funneling money through international channels to
support ANTIFA activists?

If they were doing the same for the other side - i.e. funneling right wing
money to support NAZI activist it would be the same kind of stupid.

If you don't want to get your servers to be raided just don't side-hustle as
an extremist shaddow financier.

~~~
eucitizen1
Just so you know: In Germany, Antifa is an umbrella term for a lot of left
wing projects which try to build social structures for (mostly) peaceful
reform. People like me - being antifascist - have been active in the political
landscape for more than forty years. Mobilizing against neonazis works and has
been pretty damn necessary in Eastern Germany since the collapse of the GDR.

Unfortunately in the US, activists have been labeled as terrorists even though
their organizing works as intended [1] - without fatalities.

[1] [https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/12/alt-right-
lea...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/12/alt-right-leader-
richard-spencer-says-his-rallies-arent-fun-anymore/416579002/)

~~~
1337biz
We all remember what peaceful Antifa reform looks like from the Hamburg G20
pictures.

------
HenryBemis
Germans won't learn from their past. Watching "the lives of others" doesn't
mean anything to them. "Security" forces always want to shadow/spy on anyong
and anything "just in case". This is how Democracies fail. This is how
humanity reverts to the age of "securitat".

German has one of the most elaborate spying-on-its-own-citizens dragnet around
the world. This sting operations are just to bully/frighten anyone who dares
not to bow their heads.

~~~
skrause
> _German has one of the most elaborate spying-on-its-own-citizens dragnet
> around the world._

Citation needed. The amount of surveillance in Germany is _much_ lower than
e.g. the USA or UK.

~~~
solotronics
they are definitely part of the Five Eyes and as culpable as any of the others

~~~
mkl
Five Eyes "is an intelligence alliance comprising Australia, Canada, New
Zealand, the United Kingdom and the United States." \--
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes)

------
rasengan
Why is this post sinking? Is someone at HN trying to censor this too like the
Tesla stuff?

It has more upvotes in less time than any other post on the front page. The
top post has 35 upvotes in 2 hours.

This post is falling off the front page with 81 upvotes in less than an hour.

This is completely sketch.

~~~
dang
There have been huge threads about this story in the last few days.

[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Zwiebelfreunde%20points%3E30&s...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Zwiebelfreunde%20points%3E30&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0)

When a story is ongoing, moderators downweight follow-ups unless and until
they contain significant new information. Otherwise the discussions tend to be
repetitive, reacting only to the original event which has already been
discussed, and more likely to attract unsubstantive and flamewar-style
comments, as well as complaints from other users about the same story
reappearing too many times.

This approach is something we figured out five years ago after the Snowden
avalanche, and it has turned out to be a good balance that serves HN well.

------
DiabloD3
Tails is a Debian Live CD that automatically proxies everything through Tor.

AfD is a group that is essentially the Nazi Party 2.0.

The German police raided the host of Torservers.net in an effort to hunt down
people protesting against AfD, and it seems to have been conducted as some
sort of scare tactic (which would be unfortunate if Germany is actually
helping a modern Nazi party).

More information here: [https://blog.torservers.net/20180704/coordinated-
raids-of-zw...](https://blog.torservers.net/20180704/coordinated-raids-of-
zwiebelfreunde-at-various-locations-in-germany.html)

~~~
Daemon6
Imo stating "AfD is Nazi party 2.0" is very oversimplified. I agree there are
some Nazi supporters there but most are people with anti illegal immigration
views which doesn't mean they are Nazis.

