
Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'? - marcinw
http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/05/23/vacation.in.america/index.html
======
leftnode
There is a good article from another software developer around here who told
his boss he was taking a 3 month vacation. He made the point the business
needed him more than he needed it; he was a competent developer and could
easily get work, didn't have any living/large financial dependencies. At first
I thought it was absurd, but the more I thought about it, he was absolutely
correct.

Take a long vacation some time. Even if you do have a family, save up enough
money and go travel for a while. Take some decent time off work (4+ weeks).
Let them fire you if they want. That's (one of my) my goal(s) over the next 2
years: take an extended vacation (I haven't taken more than a week off since I
graduated college).

~~~
joss82
Here it is, and it's awesome:

[http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/02/two-weeks-
vaca...](http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/02/two-weeks-vacation-is-
only.html)

~~~
k3dz
you can do that only if you are a senior dev.. what do junior devs, recent
college grads do?

~~~
dmm
Live on less than half of your net(take-home) pay and save the rest. Now for
every month that you work, you are also saving a month's worth of living
expenses. After two years of this you have two years of fuck you money. Two
years is enough time to learn python or something else significant.

Your savings can last even longer if you get a $10/hr job such as waiting
tables part-time.

Work daily on developing marketable skills. Work daily on communicating how
your work impacts the business you're in. Imagine your boss asks you tomorrow,
"Why shouldn't I fire you right now?". What would you say?

Always have a resume prepared.

Once you have done this you can go up to your boss and tell her you are taking
two months off and you won't care what she says in reply.

~~~
MatthewPhillips
Recent grads are only making ~40k, some times less, some times considerably
less (people have posted Ask HNs about this topic before). As someone who used
to be in that camp, living off half your net at that salary range is not
realistic; living on 75% is barely so, if you're eating bologna sandwiches
every night.

Having a second job is a great idea, it's just too bad you can't get a good
consulting job when you're a junior dev. Once you have a couple of years of
experience you can start to get consulting work and from there you are pretty
much set financially. The first couple of years are tough though. Vacations
aren't realistic unless you have family that helps you out.

~~~
jasonkester
Most undergrads are only making ~$0/year, and seem to get by just fine. Adding
an extra $40k into the mix would only seem to help.

I made $37k at my first job, and managed to put $10k of that into the market
for the first four years. So yes, it's possible.

Everything the grandparent says is good advice (apart from the waiting tables
thing. Freelancing pays 10-30x as much.) Live cheap when you're young, bank
away as much as possible, spend your 30s living on a beach. It's very doable
if that's what you want.

~~~
dmm
I just mentioned waiting tables because it was a job almost anyone could do
and that pays decently. It's something you could find quickly to stretch
savings between jobs. I don't have any experience with freelancing but that's
probably a better idea.

~~~
btilly
The biggest advantage of waiting tables is that you can get a job, and eat
_before_ you get your first paycheck.

------
AndyJPartridge
I think this old story is vey relevant here.

I have employees that take a lower salary than others, but have up to 7 weeks
holiday a year. I'm happy with that. One employee that has 7 weeks holiday has
only had 1 day sick in the 6 years I've employed him.

\-- Sharpen the Saw --

Once upon a time a very strong woodcutter ask for a job in a timber merchant,
and he got it. The paid was really good and so were the work conditions. For
that reason, the woodcutter was determined to do his best. His boss gave him
an axe and showed him the area where he was supposed to work.

The first day, the woodcutter brought 18 trees "Congratulations," the boss
said. "Go on that way!" Very motivated for the boss’ words, the woodcutter try
harder the next day, but he only could bring 15 trees. The third day he try
even harder, but he only could bring 10 trees.

Day after day he was bringing less and less trees. "I must be losing my
strength", the woodcutter thought. He went to the boss and apologized, saying
that he could not understand what was going on. "When was the last time you
sharpened your axe?" the boss asked. "Sharpen? I had no time to sharpen my
axe. I have been very busy trying to cut trees..."

~~~
pstack
That kind of sounds like a metaphor for more training rather than vacation?

~~~
AndyJPartridge
I understand it to mean you should take time out in order to improve the
overall quality of your work.

Be that training, a vacation, or the literal "sharpening of the axe."

------
wccrawford
When I complained to an employer that it was too hard to request my vacation
time (it's in my contract, they made it very hard to pick dates by always
having an emergency deadline, etc) they replied "It's like that everywhere",
as if it was a legit answer.

Many employers also lump in sick time with vacation time, as if that's a
replacement since you didn't come into work. That would probably be okay, if
you had an option to take unpaid vacation time when the time comes. Instead,
you're often forced to take a shorter vacation, which doesn't do the job.

And forcing you to work while on vacation is unforgiveable. It shows that the
company doesn't understand why vacation time is necessary. (I haven't had
anyone do this to me, thankfully. It wouldn't have gone well.)

If taking unpaid vacations was an option, I would probably end up taking about
4 weeks worth of vacations, instead of 2.

~~~
jinushaun
What really grinds my gears is when federal holidays count towards my
"vacation time". Those alone eat up seven days!

I request four weeks of vacation in my contract, but am afraid to use them.
That's America.

~~~
PonyGumbo
I started a new job last year with 10 days of vacation. It wasn't until
December that I learned that five of those days were mandatory for the week
between Christmas and New Year's. If you had no vacation days left, it was
unpaid time off.

~~~
bretthoerner
Since this is HN, there's a pretty good chance you're an Engineer of some
kind. Where are you (or what do you do?) that companies can get away with
this?

~~~
mattmanser
This is the norm in the UK, companies close over the holidays and there are
mandatory holidays that go with that.

Being clear about this with new (and especially young) employees is a good
idea as to people straight out of college, it's not obvious.

But there's certainly nothing dodgy about it.

~~~
whyleyc
Not at any UK company I've worked at (1 corporation, 1 retailer, 1 startup).

~~~
megablast
Every uk company I worked at was like this, from a major university, an us IT
company, tons financial services company.

------
wheels
This was one of the major draws for me for moving to Europe in my early 20s
(from the US). After working one year in the US and having one week of
vacation, it was bordering on surreal to have 6.

That said, most Americans wouldn't like the European pay scales. While a
developer gets 3-6 times the vacation in Germany, they make half as much
money.

For me it was a great trade; I still had a middle class income and spent my
20s bouncing around the world visiting more than 30 countries on 5 continents,
with zero gaps in my employment.

Now that I'm an employer, I still see it as a great trade: employees are a lot
cheaper here, and seem to be happier. But again, while most American software
developers would love to have more vacation, I've heard them also repeat
ludicrous things about how they can "barely survive on $60k/year".

~~~
nolok
Question to non-french here, does your advertised salary include the
employer's tax ?

For exemple here in France, on the salary my employer pays, it's divided
pretty much like this: 40% employer's taxes, 20% employee's taxes, 40% final
amount of money you put in the bank when all is said and done.

BUT my negociated salary, the one I signed on, never included employer's
taxes, so for a 100€ salary I never discussed 100€ or even thought of it at
any point, my contract has always been about 60€ (and then I pay about 20€ in
taxes).

For me what that really changes is that:

\- if employer's taxes increses, I have no idea about it, and my pay check
doesn't change at all (neither if it decreases)

\- our perceived salary seems to be a lot lower than some other countries.

So what I'm asking is, when you guys speak about that kind of salary being way
too low, is it a "complete" salary or is it after employer's taxes ? I live
with less that those 60k$/42k€ and I can afford a nice middle class life in
the middle of Paris plus vacations every year ...

PS: actually if you look at french job offers, you will see "brut" and/or
"net" salaries, brut is pre employee's taxes, net is post.

~~~
whakojacko
In the US, yes. The various taxes that employers must pay are paid separately,
not taken out of their salary. If someone is talking about $60k or whatever,
their takehome is $60k-federal income tax - social security tax - medicare tax
- state income tax (some states don't have this, but most do)- local income
tax (rare). On top of that, you are also likely going to have deductions for
health/dental/etc insurance, and then pre-tax payments to your retirement plan
(401k).

Separately, the company must pay a few other taxes on that $60k (nowhere near
40%, though)

~~~
camiller
For FICA (SS/Medicare) the employer pays as much as the employee. The FICA
rate is 15.3% of your base pay(there is an upper limit), you pay half and the
employer pays half (except for 2011, stimulus package and all, the employee
part of the SS part of FICA is reduced). Typically with most large employers
the employer pays 70-80% of the medical insurance premiums, varies by company.
Same for Dental, long term disability, etc. Typically the employers overall
cost is 20-30% of your salary.

------
zdw
One result of this is that businesses chuck human redundancy out the window.
Often there's only one person who can do a business critical task, and as they
can't really be gone from work for that long, the business gets by.

From an business uptime perspective, forced "downtime" of employees through
vacation is actually a good way to force the creation of backup systems for
business process.

~~~
larrywright
There are a lot of companies that do force people to take vacations for
precisely this reason.

I also recall hearing at some point in time that a lot of financial
institutions forced certain people to take time off,as a means to detect
embezzling. I'm not sure if that's true or not.

~~~
karolist
Yes, that is true.

------
toyg
It wasn't always like this in Europe. Extended vacation time was one of the
many hard-fought rights won by the socialist/trade-unionist movements of the
past century throughout the continent. Not even Thatcher dared attacking that
right (she dropped a few national holidays here and there, instead).

Things didn't turn out quite the same on the other side of the pond, sadly,
and this is the result.

~~~
odiroot
That may be true but here, in Europe (esp. Eastern), many people go years
without taking more than few days of vacation. One, you're discouraged to take
time off -- you can lose your job if you're not "devoted". Two, you have to
work over capacity to support yourself and your family.

~~~
DrCatbox
Not strictly Eastern Europe (was never part of Warsaw pact, had hostile
relations to Soviet Union) but the former Yugoslavian countries today are in
this seat: Slovenia enjoys vacation time like during Yugoslavian times, which
means 4-5 weeks at least plus holidays. Croatia took a more capitalist route
and altough workers still enjoy socialist benefits such as 1 hour per day
payed for their lunch, and holidays off, the vacation time has been decreased
while working time increased (10-12 hours per day are common). Bosnia has
large unemployment but the holidays+vacation are intact for the public
offices, while for private employees get 1 or 2 weeks off per year. Serbia is
in a similar position.

Yugoslavia Socialism -> 4-5 weeks at least, plus all religioous holidays and
all communist free days. Capitalism -> 1-2 weeks maximum, religious on,
communist off.

~~~
rospaya
IIRC both Croatia and Slovenia provide 20 days minimum and the rest negotiated
wuth employers. If in a union that mostly means 3 or 4 weeks.

In Croatia the country shuts down during the summer.

------
ry0ohki
Usually the only time Americans can take long vacations is between jobs. I
wonder how many actually change jobs just for this reason.

I asked for 4 consecutive weeks off to travel Europe once at a previous
employer (I had worked there 5 years with no more then a week and a half off)
and they denied the request. So I found another job and made sure I had a 4
week break between the two.

~~~
geebee
I've done this, though I didn't realize what I was doing at the time.

I was working for Sun Microsystems, which gave me two weeks of vacation time.
Sun was doing a forced shutdown over the week of the 4th of July, which burned
4 days, and then there was the inevitable "shutdown" over christmas break,
which burned another three days. This left me with 3 days of "elective"
vacation time. A wedding took care of those.

I quit Sun, and deliberately took off 4 weeks before my next job started.
Funny, when the 4 weeks were over, I was ready to go back to Sun. The job I
had left was better than the one I was taking. I realized that I had just been
terminally burned out. Maybe I should have called Sun back, we were still on
good terms, but at the time, I didn't really realize this was an option... and
this was the deep tech recession of the early 2000s (which accounts for the
forced shut down in the summer), so they were trying to shed employees.

I wasn't a rock star, but I'm pretty sure I was valuable to the company. I'd
spent almost three years writing code, learning the structure of sun's data
warehouse, getting to know supply analysts, people in sales, people in
manufacturing, and understanding the issues in logistics and how to write
analytical apps to support these functions. Even if my hard skills could be
replaced (they certainly could, by any Industrial Engineering major with
intermediate programming ability), the new person would still take years to
acquire all that domain and institutional knowledge.

This is why I do agree that it's nuts for companies to be so stingy with
vacation time. An extra week or two a year would probably have kept me at Sun.
I think the reason this inefficiency persists is that employers just don't see
the connection. I didn't even see the connection, and I was the one who quit
my job.

It could be that I'm more prone to burnout than most. Maybe so, but I don't
think I'm an extreme outlier on this. I suspect lots of job-hopping and
burnout does result from such low vacation allotments.

~~~
brown9-2
Until today I have never heard of a US company forcing employee's to use
"forced shutdown" days - which I'm interpreting to mean the company telling
people they have off on a certain day - as vacation days, and this is the
second time (at least) it's been mentioned in this thread.

How common is this exactly? Because this sounds like a company that is really,
really screwing it's employees.

~~~
krschultz
There are two types. The 'shutdown', or technically in my companies case the
'plant shutdown', and the 'furlough' day.

At my company, the factory has 7,000 employees in one location. So many people
took vacation between Christmas and New Years that the factory simply can not
operate. The solution was either to only give that time off for a select group
of people (pissing off most of the factory guys), or to make everyone take
that time off (pissing off the few that used to come in that week and goof
off).

Unfortunately they extended it from the guys in the factory up to the
engineers. Which really makes no sense. I'm working on a project that won't
hit the factory floor for another year. Why can't I work between Christmas and
New Years? I would be amazingly produtive without all the meetings and
distractions. Not only do we have to take the time off and use vacation (or
not get paid and don't come in), but we are not allowed to come in even if we
wanted to. I assume this is all negotiated with the unions, they never want
the salaried guys to have perks that they don't have. So for I end up burning
3-5 out of 10 vacation days a year on a week I absolutely do NOT want to take
off. But I still get paid for those days at least. And there are ways to get
around it (floating holidays, i.e. work 40 hours in 4 days in a week with a
holiday gives you the holiday back) which in effect allow you to have your
full 2 weeks. If that was not the case I think the salaried engineers would
have fought back against the practice more. Although I guess most people with
kids like that week off anyway, I just view it as a waste, I like taking my
vacation during the times those with kids can't take vacation. Everything is
cheaper and less crowded.

A 'furlow' is an unpaid day that the company forces you to take. A lot of
government employees have these now, you must take 1-5 days off a year and not
get paid for those days. In effect it is a pay cut but in exchance you get
more vacation days. The most interesting thing about the furlough is that very
often you see people given a choice between everyone taking a few days
furlough or a bunch of people getting fired. More often than not, everyone
votes to have a few people fired.

~~~
geebee
I was very bummed that Sun forced me to take off the week of 4th of july for
the same reason. I wanted to take a week in San Diego at the beach. That's
crowded any time in the summer, but after labor day, when school resumes, the
weather is actually nicer in early fall (they call it "june gloom" in san
diego, coastal fog is still common in early-mid summer), rentals are way
easier to get, and hotel prices drop dramatically. Instead, Sun was forcing me
to take my beach week at the most expensive and slightly less desirable time
of year. And when you only get two weeks at all, that's pretty crappy.

~~~
krschultz
The amazing thing to me is that that simple little policy - which probably
makes a lot of sense to executives with kids at these large companies that
take the week off anyway - is enough to drive me away to another company. It
is definitely more cost effective to just give people more vacation than to be
replacing an engineer.

------
Silhouette
The thing I find most interesting about this discussion is that we have not
yet seen anyone from the US proudly claiming that by working harder they are
more productive than the rest of us. I have seen similar conversations several
times on various on-line forums in the past, and there was always a
defensive/proud mindset from a significant group, even as those of us outside
the US wondered if they realised how much their employers were abusing them.

Since the financial mess of the past couple of years showed that US
productivity figures that seemed too good to be true really were just an
illusion, I'm hoping that the mindset of the average US worker has become a
bit more realistic and a bit less willing to accept (by international
standards) abusively long hours and short vacations. It will be good for the
workers, and I expect for their employers as well in the long run, since
working with better rested and happier employees is one of the surest ways to
improve productivity known to man.

~~~
ericdschmidt
The United States has one of the very highest GDP (PPP) per hour worked in the
world. Been that way for a long time.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_hour_worked)
. It makes sense, given our massive capital stock. So working longer hours
here would mean a lot more productivity.

I myself value leisure highly, though. I have a job as a software engineer at
a large bank in New York. Right out of college, the bank allows me (and all
other first-year developers) four weeks of vacation per year, and I'm taking
full advantage of it. I like to travel.

Demand for software engineering talent is so strong right now in the United
States that I'm surprised so many Americans on Hacker News feel they can't
take a decent vacation. I'm sure if they spoke to their bosses they could work
something out. You shouldn't be afraid to ask for a reasonable vacation.

~~~
Caballera
I'm right there with you. I work for a small VoIP company as a support
engineer and even we get decent vacation. Plus we work remotely 60% of the
time. I've got it setup right now that ever 12 days of work I have 7 days off.
Plus I have sick days and personal days. Which I don't need to use as I can
just work from home (unless I'm so sick i can't work).

------
wladimir
This is crazy from our (Western European) perspective.

It was one of my reasons for not taking a job in the USA that was offered me a
few years ago. Yes, it paid somewhat more than here in Europe but I'd rather
have the benefits such as more free time and better health care than more
income.

~~~
gst
I can only agree.

I plan to move to SF in the following months, but this is one of the issues
why I think that I won't stay there permanently, but will move back to Europe
after a few years.

~~~
jtbigwoo
In my experience, big companies in the U.S. are often willing to negotiate on
the number of vacation days issued. I negotiated 4 weeks of vacation/sick time
+ 6 holiday days at my last job. I took a a couple thousand dollars less than
my target salary, but I was definitely happier.

Also, banks, educational institutions, and government offices are more
generous when it comes to vacation days. Tech companies and ad agencies are
generally the stingiest.

------
sosuke
My employeer recently went unlimited vacation! Which in practice really means
no vacation unless you bully your way into it which is very stressful.

~~~
patio11
That is definitely the perk that isn't. Imagine a startup offering employees
unlimited pay -- "Whoa whoa whoa, you drew $3,000 this month? $3,000!? You're
a single guy, what do you need $3,000 for? Don't we give you enough soda?"

------
nixy
I'm a Swedish developer. This year I have 7 weeks of vacation, and I plan to
use it all. I normally get the 5 weeks required by law. Last year, I only used
4 of those 5 weeks, so one spilled over to this year. I also got a bonus week
of vacation for working a lot of overtime last summer. So that makes 7 weeks.

~~~
latj
Hur kan man hitta ett jobb i Sverige? ;) Måste man talar svenska?

~~~
geon
Most jobs are advertised at the government-run (but great) Platsbanken

google-translated:
[http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&u=...](http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arbetsformedlingen.se%2Fplatsbanken%3Furl%3D-123388378%252FStandard%252FSokViaYrke%252FSokresultatViaYrke.aspx%253Fq%253Ds\(ga\(ld\(199\)\)yo\(3\)yg\(2131\)\)c\(135591B3\)%26sv.url%3D12.237ec53d11d47b612d78000171)

I cant imagine Swedish would be much of an issue if you work with software
development. Even outside technology, most swedes speak english well enough
for basic communication.

Still, if you get a work permit (easy), you get to attend free Swedish
lessons.

------
macrael
I've found this is something that really surprises Europeans. But, once, when
I was comparing notes with some travelers in a hostel in New Zealand, we asked
a South Korean among us for his perspective. He said that he and everyone he
knows gets maybe _2_ days paid vacation a year. They work most weekends and
get maybe 1 holiday. He said if you want to travel, you have to quit your job
to do it, with no guarantee you will get another when you get back.

This changed my perspective. The difference between that and the States' 10ish
days off is much greater than the difference between us and Europe. It is hard
for me to imagine. Can anyone else with knowledge of East Asia chime in? Was
this guy's experience representative? If so, it is a bit silly to call America
the "no vacation nation." We do get vacation.

~~~
yardie
I'm not sure how common this is but "vacation" for the few Japanese and
Chinese tourists I've met is usually done as a work retreat. For example, your
division has met or exceeded its objectives for the year? Congratulations!
you're all going to Hawaii for a week. I assume this is how compensation is
done there.

While vacationing in Hawaii I read an article about the massive logistics it
took to host about 10 million Amway sales reps from China. The visa and hotel
backlog was insane so it took about 2 years from when they were promised to
when they were actually delivered that company paid vacation.

------
Vivtek
America doesn't do vacation because of a mistaken understanding of the meaning
of the word "productivity".

As long as you have management consultants who specialize in the single metric
of productivity (i.e. number of dollars of profit vs. number of dollars spent
on people making the profit), you will have miserable people.

~~~
bartonfink
American corporate culture seems to live by the motto "Don't think - measure!"

~~~
drblast
I've witnessed this. Counterintuitively, I think it's a side-effect of not
understanding math.

To those without a good understanding of statistics, numbers and graphs are a
mystical, magical way to easily improve just about anything.

~~~
marshray
It's also a way to avoid personal responsibility and human judgment.

------
tptacek
Relative to cost-of-living, are wages the same, lower, or higher in countries
with mandatory paid vacations? One wonders whether there's a delusive "free
lunch" notion underpinning Euro vacation policy, whether governments really
can force companies to pay _everyone_ more for the same level of output, or
whether Euro economies have discovered an effective way to engineer a more
efficient labor force by attempting to outlaw burnout.

Because, at the end of the day, the company is buying completed-and-sold
widgets for their salary dollar. All things being equal (including widget
output), if the company pays you $50k a year and gives you 4 more "paid"
vacation weeks, they gave you a raise. You can mandate 2, 4, or 8 weeks of
vacation, but --- at least in middle class jobs --- you can't really mandate a
salary floor.

------
sudonim
No vacation really sucks. I took 2 months between jobs once, but I've always
been able to take a week or two weeks at a time. Now, we have the same policy
as netflix. Basically you take time off when you want it, and you take as much
as you want. It's all paid. Our only designer is gone for 3 weeks to get
married. We'll struggle a little bit for those 3 weeks, but I'm grateful that
when it's my time to take a week or two off, I don't feel guilty or have to
beg for it.

~~~
jemfinch
The funny thing is, the Netflix policy is tied to a corporate culture that's
reputed to be very high stress, performance-focused, and quick to terminate.
In such an insecure environment, I would be very surprised if Netflix
employees took more vacation than the average industry employee.

I would never want to work for a Netflix-model company. When I take vacation,
I want to feel _entitled_ to it (because I am!), and when I forgo vacation, I
want to be paid out for that sacrifice when I leave the company.

I think the Netflix model exists more to improve the company ledger by
reducing liabilities than to help the employee or promote a healthy work
environment. Maybe it's different where you work, but that's my perspective,
from my comfortable 12 company holidays, 15 days PTO perspective.

------
antidaily
I find it hard to believe that the employer really gains much by offering less
than 3 weeks. No one is fully productive 52 weeks a year (or even 50).

------
chrismealy
Nobody has mentioned the obvious: weak unions.

~~~
kgermino
I'm not sure how much that has to do with it.

I live in Chicago, no one around here would accuse the unions of being weak,
but vacation time here is no different than in the south.

Unless you mean on a national level (unions pushing for federal reform and
what-not) than yes the unions here are weaker, but the U.S. Also tends to be
more opposed to national regulations than Europe as well.

~~~
r00fus
Considering most vacation law is set at the national level, yes, weak union
power at the national level results in the situation we have here.

------
smackay
This topic is covered on a somewhat regular basis in The Economist - usnder
different guises. One memorable comparison between Europe and the USA was that
Americans work more so they can spend the occasional weekend on their
expensive boat while Europeans are happier taking longer vacations on canoe
trips.

------
farrel
How many Americans can only afford health coverage via their workplace plan?

How many Americans live in right-to-work states and can be dismissed without a
reason?

Add that together and you have a lot of fear.

~~~
Bobby_Tables
Nitpick: you're referring to at-will employment, not right-to-work. Right-to-
work laws mean that you can't be forced to pay union dues as a condition of
employment. At-will employment means that you can (theoretically) be fired or
quit at any time for no reason.

~~~
hollerith
Though the two are related in that almost all of the employees that cannot be
terminated at the employer's will are unionized. Even in the right-to-work
states, almost all of the employees of governments and universities cannot be
fired at will.

------
joezydeco
I'm wondering how much of it is because people neglect to negotiate their
vacation time when changing jobs.

Most American workplaces start you out with 2 weeks and then usually add a
week or so after so many years of seniority. When you change jobs, how many of
you ask for that same amount of vacation time at the new company? Or do you
just accept that you're new and don't want to push things by asking for more
at the onset? Or is it just forgotten until it's too late to ask?

~~~
theBobMcCormick
I've got a co-worker who negotiated extra time of when he started here (3
weeks instead of the normal 2). Normally, we get an extra week of vacation
after 5 years of employment. Unfortunately, they screwed him out of it because
he already _had_ 3 weeks, which is the normal amount for someone with 5 years
of tenure. :-(

~~~
rmc
So if he worked there for 10 years he would have gotten 10 x 3 = 30 weeks
holiday, however had he not negotiated he would have gotten 5 x 2 + 5 x 3 = 25
weeks.

I cannot see how you consider that he got a bad deal.

~~~
theBobMcCormick
It's a bad deal because he negotiated less starting salary in return for more
starting vacation.

------
marcinw
How many of you treat conferences as mini-vacations? I find that in my field,
going to a couple conferences throughout the year makes up for a couple days
of vacation, as long as I don't have any work on my plate.

Also, I find that being single and having friends that (on the majority), make
less than I do, makes it difficult to plan trips to places you'd have to
fly/rent a hotel for. Trips consist of ten friends carpooling, getting a group
rate at a ski resort, and renting out a condo for next to nothing for a
weekend.

~~~
m0nastic
I definitely do that.

I have a lot of vacation days through work (6 weeks this year), but have
pretty much no desire to go on vacations. I end up using my vacation days to
go to Security conferences.

I've found, at least with my favorite conferences (CanSecWest, Shmoocon), that
they refill my "info-sec excitement meter" for a good four months before I
start considering quitting and going to work in a comic book store.

~~~
jquery
I think about quitting and working a lower paying job all the time. That just
inspires me to sock away more of my excess income for that day when it
eventually comes.

------
troels
So, in the field of software engineering where competition for employees is
tough, is it really still common to give only 2 or 3 weeks vacation? Would it
be considered outrageous to ask for 5 or 6 weeks of vacation when interviewing
for a position, in Silicon Valley?

~~~
marshray
I don't know about SV in particular, but I've worked a several tech companies
over the years.

Yes, usually HR can make exceptions. But you need a good reason, like "at my
current job I have 3 weeks of leave accrued, I want to not lose that if I come
work for you".

But having an engineer who accrues vacation at a different rate than other
employees hired under the same circumstances would be quite exceptional. It
would stand out in their records and they might not have a good way to justify
their decision if they were questioned about it "why is troles taking so many
vacations?".

During the hiring process, it's probably not a good idea to act exceptional in
the amount of vacation you plan on taking! It would be easier to negotiate on
salary.

~~~
gaius
On the contrary, there is no better time to negotiate than post offer, pre
acceptance.

~~~
marshray
I didn't mean to imply he shouldn't negotiate or that it wasn't a good time
for it, only that some things are easier to negotiate than others.

------
stefanobernardi
That's really crazy, but it gives employers the chance to hire and retain the
best talents not only with salary wars.

I still think that the major problem is that the US is one of the three only
nations in the world that does not have paid maternity leave. Absurd.

~~~
thomasgerbe
Actually there are numerous companies in the U.S. that do have maternity
leave. I used to work for an agency in NY that generally had less pay but more
benefits.

------
sdizdar
For software companies (and probably to all other industries which hire
'knowledge workers'), it should be very important to give enough of vacation
time to their employees (developers).

For me that is no brainier, but unfortunately, very few hi-tech companies
actually understand that. So you have high-rate of "burn outs" which cause all
kind problems (bugs, bad design decisions, etc.). The management mantra is
still: The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Also, I was surprised how it is very hard to find a hi-tech company offering
something like unpaid sabbatical leave or fulltime sabbatical replacement
position (i.e., programmer working in sales for one or two months). Some banks
and hedge funds do that.

------
jister
Sad but true.

Years back when I was working for an American employer, filing a leave seemed
like taboo. I didn't understand it back then but when my wife got
hospitalized, I filed for an emergency leave of course, my boss sent flowers
with a note that goes something like this: "Hope your wife gets better yada
yada...can you work while you're at the hospital?"

~~~
jquery
I had a boss like that. He texted me Christmas Eve, asking about progress on
my latest project.

I quit a month later and found another company that gave me 6 weeks vacation
(starting). And much better pay to boot.

------
hessenwolf
No heathcare, no vacation, can get fired with no notice, crap public
transport, astronomical crime rate, dubious legal freedoms.

Why is it you guys pay your government again?

~~~
waqf
High salaries; cheap consumer goods; teenagers on the street are polite, and
shop assistants can count and spell.

But that's all I can think of. And you missed "slow broadband".

~~~
hessenwolf
Okay - 1 and 2 make sense; teenagers: are they really polite? my sarcasm
detector is off - if comparing it to the scumbag quotient of the British Isles
then I totally see where you are coming from; can shop assistants count and
spell better?

~~~
waqf
I am indeed thinking of the British Isles (glad you spotted that: I suspected
I needed to qualify that claim somehow). I'm convinced that Americans spell
their own language better than the British (or the French), who can misspell
any handmade sign however simple. I probably don't have enough anecdotal
evidence to make the counting claim compelling, but I've never managed to
confuse an American cashier by overpaying in some complicated way in order to
get fewer coins in change.

~~~
hessenwolf
Hmmm, yes, damn do we specialise in that untended-to social minority of
scumbags.

I must try that next time I am over. Perhaps they are better at mental
arithmetic because they are always adding the tax back on?

------
vetler
Move to Norway - the best place to live according to the UN:
<http://goo.gl/012ea>

Just be aware that while it might be a good place to live, Norwegians find
lots to complain about anyway. Also, it's definitely not the most exciting
place to live. You'll earn enough to buy a place to live, have kids and spend
your five weeks of paid vacation somewhere warmer.

FWIW, I've met Americans who have moved here because of our socialist values
(yes, socialist... it's not a curse word where I come from ;)), and are pretty
happy about it.

------
wonderyak
Very simply, this country was founded by people with the Protestant Work Ethic
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic> and it has become a part
of our national identity.

~~~
lispm
I live in the more protestant part of Germany, Hamburg. People here get the
same vacation (the company I work for has 28 days paid vacation for its
employees). The only difference is that we have a few days less public
holidays than in the catholic regions.

~~~
wonderyak
It really isn't so much the religious aspect of Protestantism but the work
ethic associated with early American settlers and the lack of fun they
believed in. There is a really wonderful book by Harriet Beecher Stowe which
outlines the lives of these people:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Town_Folks>

~~~
lispm
The 'protestantischer Arbeitsethos' (protestant work ethic) is originally a
concept developed in Germany (propagated to neighbor countries and then to the
USA) and still very influential here.

------
mcantelon
"Century of the Self" is a great documentary on how the American population
has been socially engineered by corporations.

~~~
wlll
You can (legitimately) download "Century of the Self" here:

Part 1: <http://www.archive.org/details/AdaCurtisCenturyoftheSelf_0> Part 2:
[http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPar...](http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPart2of4)
Part 3:
[http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPar...](http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPart3of4)
Part 4:
[http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPar...](http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPart4of4_0)

~~~
siphr
I can second this. It is one of those documentaries that you need to see at
least once before you die. Very informative.

------
fedd
in Russia we have approx. 4 weeks of paid vacations which don't expire if you
dont use them, people work from 9 to 6 with 45 mins for lunch, and from 9 to
4:45 on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays (40 hrs work week). If national
holidays fall onto workdays, there's an extra day off. Mostly this is observed
now, administration tend to force people go on vacation to make accounting
simpler. For several years we had Christmas vacations from 1 to 10th of
January.

now a joke story as it is told in Russia.

at one company people worked their asses off very hard, came earlier, left
later, sometimes worked until 9 or 10 to meet goals in the plan. and suddenly
one man started to appear at 9, leave an 6 and didn't appear on Saturday and
Sunday when the deadline was near. colleagues started to look at him with
blame, and finally told him, who the fuck you think you are? why you so
relaxed when we are tearing our asses? - oh, sorry guys, its a real shame, -
he replied, - but i am on a vacation

------
jamii
I know a fair few people who work one month on, one month off (pro rata, of
course). Even in London or Hong Kong (not Tokyo) a competent developer can
earn enough in 6 months to live on for 12.

------
speleding
Allow me to air a dissenting opinion, since everyone here seems to make fun of
those poor US workaholics.

I think the low number of vacation days is just a side effect of Americans not
having such a strict compartmentalization between "work" and "life". I worked
on both sides of the Atlantic and although I settled in Europe now I actually
like the US work ethic, the low number of vacation days notwithstanding.

For many Europeans work is something they do to have bread on the table and
the "real" life is that part you're not working. For many Americans their work
is their life and the free time they have gets intermingled with work (they
take the kids to the company barbecue! never heard of that happening in
Europe).

But if most of your waking moments are spent doing something which is not your
primary objective than you could say the Europeans are the sad ones.

(Side note: I am now in the happy position that I enjoy running my own
company, I might feel different if I had a lousy job)

~~~
pstack
Thank you. I _am_ my work and I _live_ to work and I'm tired of people
treating me like some sort of pariah, because of it. The only thing I will
spend more time doing in my life besides working is sleeping and that thing I
do and how well I do it greatly defines me. I am not just the man who exists
between the few hours after work and before bed and if others are, then I'm
sorry for them. (I understand that isn't everyone - many people do love what
they do and care about the work they make with their lives, but still enjoy
the lengthy break now and then).

------
mcdowall
I get 23 days holiday entitlement plus UK bank holidays which this year thanks
to Prince William adds on another 9 days.

Like some others however, I have dreamt about travelling long term so have
handed my notice in, managed to secure some small freelance gigs and leave
next wednesday for Bangkok, my holiday entitlement just wasn't enough ;)

------
dhughes
It's no better in Canada the usual vacation time is two weeks with that
increasing to three after maybe five years then after ten years it may go to
four weeks but that's it it's extremely rare to see more than five weeks.

The years of service are calculated for full-time positions so if you worked
at a company part-time for five years and then became full-time only then does
the clock start to tick towards more vacation time.

In my job the summer is a busy time and vacations are blacked out from July to
August the best times to go in a snowy country. The rest of the year the quiet
time is used for projects which also mean no vacation.

Over six years each year I managed to get a week or two in, barely, but I've
got 210 hours of vacation and 200+ hours of sick time (maxed out) that I can't
use because I can never get time off. And I'm not allowed to take two weeks in
a row either. Time to move on!

~~~
afterburner
Actually several sources show Canada is better than the US, although how much
better depends on the source. This one below paints the rosiest picture I've
seen for Canada, I've seen others show as few as 19 (for average) while show
14 for the US (same as below):

<http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922052.html>

~~~
dhughes
That seems bizarre, any job I've ever had or anyone I know get two weeks
vacation.

Anyone you ask wouldn't get any more than two weeks and self-employed seasonal
workers such as farmers and fishermen may not get any vacation.

~~~
afterburner
In my experience in the infrastructure/defense/aerospace fields, you get 2
weeks to start, but 3 weeks after 2 years, plus 1 week company shutdown in
December. Plus stat holidays of course (about one week's worth).

------
MatthewB
My employer gives the usual 2 weeks vacation for the first year of employment.
Then, every year after that, you get an extra week up to 4 weeks paid vacation
per year. Also, my employer is very vacation friendly in terms of requesting
time off.

However, the biggest problem I have is actually taking the time off! I feel
like I will miss too much work if I take a long vacation so I just take off a
day or two here and there to "relax." And just like the article says I am
always available via email on my cell phone and although I don't want to admit
it, I am usually available on my computer as well.

~~~
henrikschroder
What do you mean "miss too much work" ?

Seriously, what's the worst that could happen if you're not there for a week
or two?

~~~
pstack
His comment seems fairly self explanatory, to me. If you have five things to
do every day and you do five things every day, you keep up. If you have five
things to do every day and you don't do them for ten days, you have 55 things
to do on the eleventh day.

~~~
henrikschroder
But most americans seem to have two weeks of vacation each year, if your
reasoning is correct, then every american would get two weeks behind each
year.

Except, it doesn't work like that, right? In our profession, you don't have a
steady workload, sometime you need to do more, sometimes you need to do less.
You have colleagues that can cover for you when you are not at work.

There's this weird-ass mentality in the US that you shouldn't be paid when
you're not at work, but that's just the wrong way of thinking about it. If I
have five weeks of paid vacation and a week of holidays, then the company pays
me my yearly salary for 46 weeks of labour.

If the company expects me to do more than 46 weeks of labour in a year, it's
doing something wrong. That is not the deal, and if there's more work that
needs to be done, then they either have to convince me to work overtime, or
hire more employees.

------
patja
Taking control of my own schedule is in the top 5 list of reasons I quit being
an employee 4 years ago (constant reorganization was number 1). Now I take all
of August off, spend time volunteering in my daughters' classrooms during the
day, get all of my errands done while the streets and shops are empty, and
generally love life a lot more.

Anyone with dev skills can go independent or strike out with a group of like-
minded souls to take control of their schedule. Sure there are downsides to
working on your own, and it isn't all skittles and beer, but overall I find it
well worth it.

------
EiZei
They might as well call this article Why is America the 'no-union nation'?

------
mikeleeorg
Out of curiosity, anyone know if sabbaticals common in Europe?

A software developer I know worked tirelessly for 4 years at a large
corporation before burning out. He may have taken a week off here & there, but
was always answering his emails.

He finally requested a sabbatical. Those are rare and very tough to get, but
his manager fought for him and off he went. He returned refreshed, though he
left the job shortly thereafter (which is a major reason why that company made
it tough to request a sabbatical).

I'm just curious if the same kind of phenomenon occurs in Europe.

~~~
wazoox
AFAIK sabbatical are quasi exclusive to US and Canada. I never knew anyone in
Europe going for a sabbatical.

~~~
Ras_
In Finland we have a practice called vuorotteluvapaa (work sharing). It is
commonplace for people nearing middle age. For example my mother used
vuorotteluvapaa to do deaconess studies to complement her nursing degree. Work
sharing requires that your employer hires someone who is registered as
unemployed to fill in "your shoes".

To get work share you need to have worked at least 10 years of which at least
13 months to your current employer. You can work share for a minimum of 90
days and maximum of 359 days. Compensation is 70-80% of what your unemployment
benefit (25.74€ base per day + 45% of your normal day's earnings) would be.

------
Confusion
I work at a (bootstrapped) European startup. In june, one of the founders
takes a month of vacation. In july, the other does the same. As an employee,
I'm entitled to 5 weeks off. Sick leave does not subtract from that. Every
American reader probably thinks we will never make it. European readers would
consider insane if we did without that time off. That's how ingrained this
vacation business is. And if you ask me, we are happier and more productive
than we would be without those vacations.

------
pnathan
I would not mind a split between paid and unpaid vacation. I see no reason
(unless contractually specified) why a company should pay me for not working.

I don't live to work. I work to live.

~~~
hollerith
>I see no reason (unless contractually specified) why a company should pay me
for not working.

Because you probably do not get a charge out of getting something for nothing
-- but many do.

~~~
pnathan
Well, if someone _wants_ to give me something for nothing, I'll take it. :D
Please don't get me wrong. Donations are definitely accepted!

But I want to create win-win situations with my business relationships. If I
am working for a company, they are getting my product, I am getting money
(possibly benefits). If I am not working, e.g., I am dorking around in Mexico
for a month on vacation, the company is not netting value out of me, and if
they are _paying_ me, that's a drain on their resources. I want my employer to
be awesome, because as a member of that company, the awesomeness trickles
down. :-)

------
stephen_g
Wow, that really is incredible... I really can't imagine not being able to
take a week of vacation for fear of losing my job...

Do you guys in the US get time in lieu? My job is 40 hours a week, and if you
work longer than that, you can take the time off later. So working fifteen
minutes longer every day lets you have another week off (paid) every year, in
addition to the four weeks paid holiday you get.

And since holiday time accumulates, you are encouraged to take most of it
every year.

~~~
retroafroman
Generally no. Most engineering jobs fall in the "salaried professional"
category, which means that no over time is paid and that you're expected to
work for 40 hours a week. I've seen a lot of nice managers allow employees to
take some downtime after a stressful or overworked period, but there's not a
standard policy at most jobs. Jobs where "punching the clock," usually hourly
paid positions, can get a little closer to that, but usually only within a pay
period. Example: if my friend puts in a little bit extra each day, he might
leave early on Friday, but can't accrue that outside of the two week paycheck
to paycheck period.

------
pstack
After seven years with my company, I was finally earning the highest amount of
vacation hours per pay check, up to 15 days per year. In my fifteen year
career, as an adult, I've never taken a vacation and I don't really have any
interest in doing so. I currently have about 300 hours of vacation banked. I'm
at the limit, so unless I use some of that time, I won't earn any more. That's
okay, because . . . I don't have any use for a vacation. I don't use sick
days, either (I know a lot of people use their three or five allotted sick
days from their company as personal time).

I guess if I was digging ditches for a living, I'd want all the paid vacations
I could possibly have. However, I work with computers and technology for a
living and I love computers and technology. So . . you know . . . why would I
want to take time off from doing something I enjoy?

Not to mention, after I die, nobody is going to remember me fondly for the
vacations I took, so I could sit in the sun and cook my skin next to a
chlorinated pool in another country. They're going to remember me for any work
ethic, personality, and accomplishments I had.

~~~
vacri
_Not to mention, after I die, nobody is going to remember me fondly for the
vacations I took, so I could sit in the sun and cook my skin next to a
chlorinated pool in another country. They're going to remember me for any work
ethic, personality, and accomplishments I had._

If that's all you think vacations are, no wonder you don't take them.

My housemate is in Africa for 10 days with her mother at the moment. Another
friend is going to Vietnam for two weeks shortly. Both of these ventures open
the travelers up to new experiences and broaden not only their horizons, but
mine by proxy. I can guarantee you that I will remember their trips to foreign
lands more than I remember them spending another week in their jobs.

I actually find it a little sad that you seem to think that broadening your
perspective is worthless (ie: "here I am, why ever look elsewhere?")

~~~
pstack
I've actually traveled a great deal (in my youth, including two years in
Zambia and Kenya) and while it's not something I enjoy overall (for all the
usual travel hassles, plus I'd rather spend my time earning money rather than
spending it), I understand that your friend does. I don't know that there is
anything particularly "perspective broadening" about it in a world that has
grown so close together through technology and communication, but I'm sure
she'll have plenty of memories and experiences from it. Memories and
experiences don't necessarily have inherent value. They have personal value.

I enjoy working. I enjoy that every week, I get to do technically creative and
very detailed and complex things with people who are all over the planet.
China, Japan, India, Australia, all over the UK, France, the Vatican, Israel,
Brazil, Canada, Germany, Singapore and many others. Granted, taking time away
from work makes you look bad, so not doing that is a point in my favor -- but
I truly enjoy my work. I also enjoy that it allows me to own a home, have
plans to buy my childhood home so it can stay in the family some day, put my
siblings through college, help with financial support and technical guidance
of my friends' businesses and projects, contribute to worthy causes, and
someday potentially retire.

Then again, if I have to die "young", I want to be one of those Karōshi deaths
where they go out slumped over a pile of spreadsheets and whitepapers on their
desk. So . . . take my preferences with a grain of salt, if you like.

------
madeinindia
All you folks must seriously consider moving to India. Its a vibrant country
with a lot of energy. Software Engineers get above than average market
salaries. With a decent salary one can afford a great life style here. It also
servers as an excellent laboratory where you can test/prototype and implement
your ideas.

------
flexd
We do not live to work, we work to live.

At least that is how I see it. I will work to keep me busy doing (hopefully)
interesting things and to keep food on the table but in the end I work because
I have to. We all do.

Wouldn't you rather work 6 months of the year and travel or do whatever you
want the rest? I know I would.

------
skittles
I work for a company that doesn't have expiring vacation days. They are payed
out at 100% at your current salary the day you quit, get fired, or retire. We
have a large amount of employees that use this as an additional retirement
account. I can't imagine banking all my vacation time!

~~~
barrkel
That's a dangerous strategy to rely on. The company may not ultimately be able
to afford such payouts.

------
rmc
In many European countries if you don't take all your holidays, the company
must pay you for them. So companies do not financially benefit if you work
more, all they get are employees that are tired and overworked. This is why
they would be keen for you to take all your holidays.

------
michaelpinto
The flip side of this is that we have Summer vacation for schools (unlike the
rest of the world) and have institutionalized Spring Break for college
students. Sadly we see the idea of vacation as being for the very young or the
very old who retire.

~~~
ugh
That can’t be true. Bavarian schools, for example, have a five-week summer
vacation this year and additionally eight weeks of vacation spread over the
whole year (one week in spring and autumn, two weeks for Easter, Pentecost and
Christmas). There are also quite a few state and federal holidays but, as you
can see, vacations are already clustered around those holidays. I think there
are maybe two or three additional holidays outside of vacation times (May 1,
German Unity Day, probably some weird religious holiday I’m forgetting).

That’s a shorter (but still quite long) summer vacation. Overall, however,
vacation times are similar.

As for spring break, here is the situation at my German university: classes
end at July 15 this year, exams end at August 20, the next semester starts at
October 1. That’s one month and nearly two weeks when you can be absolutely
sure that there is nothing to do for you (at least when you finish your papers
in time and don’t have a thesis to write) and probably more depending on when
your exams are.

We also get two weeks off for Christmas and there is obviously also a shorter
break (about one week and up to one month depending on when your exams are)
between winter semester and summer semester (but no other vacations, only
federal and state holidays).

I don’t know much about US universities (Is there downtime for students
between semesters?) but I do know that spring break certainly doesn’t compare.
(One or two weeks? Seriously?)

~~~
barry-cotter
I'm pretty sure German universities suck in comparision to all Anglophone
universities when it comes to free time, and I know it's true for Irish and
British ones.

You get three months off for the summer (normally June, July and August), a
month off over Christmas (though in some universities it may only be three
weeks, and you may have to prepare for exams), and various other time off.

Also that summer time is _free_ , no papers to write. It is goddamned awesome.
[http://www2.ul.ie/web/WWW/Services/Academic_Calendar/2012_-_...](http://www2.ul.ie/web/WWW/Services/Academic_Calendar/2012_-_13_Academic_Calendar)

~~~
ugh
Summer is free for me, too. No papers to write. It is, however, relatively
easy to convince your Prof to extend the deadline into the summer break.

------
matwood
I get 3 paid weeks of vacation per year. More would be nice, but unless I'm
going to do something (spend a month in Europe for example) I get tired of
being on vacation after a week or so. Also, when it comes to single days here
and there my boss just tells me to take them. His way of hoping I pick up the
phone on a Saturday when something breaks I guess :)

I recently travelled to to the UK and France for 16 days and was happy to
return home. I had a great time on the trip, so maybe I'm weird for not
wanting to be gone longer? If I actually lived in Europe more vacation might
be nice because it's so easy/cheap to visit other countries.

~~~
osks
Vacation in Sweden (I think it's like this in other European countries as
well, but I don't know for sure) doesn't always mean that you go away
somewhere, or at least not for the entire vacation. Say if you have four
continuous weeks of vacation during the summer (June to August here in
Sweden), which is very common, you might be gone for a week or two, but spend
the rest of the time at home.

Since almost everyone have the large part of their vacation during the summer,
there is a good chance that some of your friends and family will have vacation
at the same time, so you just relax and enjoy life for the rest of the time.

(Or you can just spend the entire vacation repainting your house and be
stressed about all the stuff you have to do now that you have the time...)

~~~
matwood
Like I said above, maybe I'm weird :)

I can only relax for a few days before I get stir crazy. I need problems to
solve and things to think about. It probably helps that I don't hate my job
and have a lot of free time already. A long time ago I realized that I didn't
want to be that person who lives for the couple times a year they get a
vacation (even if you have 4 weeks I don't want to hate the other 48). Instead
try to live in places where I'm on vacation all the time. Right now I'm in the
mountains and at the end of the summer I'm moving back to the beach.

------
daniel-cussen
I hear that people take substantially less vacation in East Asia.

------
jneal
I guess I'm in the "lucky" category when it comes to paid time off. I work for
a small company though, and I receive 5 holidays, 5 floating holidays, 5 sick
days, and 5 weeks vacation. I could find a job that pays 10k more per year but
offers not nearly as much vacation time - but I prefer the time off over the
additional money.

------
rgrieselhuber
When I was working for an employer, all I wanted was more vacation time so I
could travel. Now that I am self-employed, I just get antsy when I'm on
vacation.

What I've found works better for me is to take extended vacations every couple
of years (a year here, 3 months there). This recharges my batteries for years
at a time.

------
xbryanx
This is one of the reasons I love my technology work at a non-profit. Sure I
make lots less, but they are extremely generous with paid time off. Our
institutional culture encourages people taking vacations, and while we have
serious tight deadlines, people still support a healthy life-work balance.

------
Aloisius
If the US had the culture of taking off August, it would be far easier to take
off 3 weeks since everyone in your company would be doing it. Logistically
however I don't really understand how taking August off works in Europe. Where
does everyone go? Doesn't it get super crowded?

~~~
yardie
Most of the French head south to the riviera, or north to brittany, basically
any place with a beach nearby.

The roads are packed so you'll usually see a traffic report with them
interviewing people taking a picnic on the side of the road, complete with
wine and cheese of course. Also, its part of the draw. When there is a known
crowd coming most of the hotels and restaurants pull out all the stops: foods,
drinks, live entertainment. A lot of these seaside towns can be quite sleepy
during the winter so its sort of a big deal.

And, quite a few of my colleagues have family that moved south for the warmer
weather, some just head out to visit family.

~~~
Goladus
That sounds like a large-scale version of what happens every summer weekend in
New England as Boston and its suburbs head to the cape.

~~~
yardie
Yes, but instead of a summer weekend its the entire month of august and parts
of July. From my experience, Paris gets completely evacuated except for the
tourists and tourism related jobs.

------
utefan001
My employer is hiring and offers 5 weeks of vacation after the first year.
Must be a US citizen. No remote work. <http://woti.com/benefits.cfm>
<http://woti.com/jobs.cfm>

------
fady
american - working for a company i love, but i find it hard to even write long
articles on HN because of the fear of "slacking"..i would love to elaborate
more and explain why im slowing starting my own web design co for my traveling
laptop days i so dream about....

------
code_duck
The corporate overlords don't have time for us to enjoy ourselves. Is there
any other explanation?

------
andrewcross
This is very similar to an article that made it to the first page yesterday:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2573664>

Still, the more awareness that this topic gets, the better!

------
alexjgough
Exactly. I'm bright and awesome, but this one thing puts me off moving to the
USA.

------
samlevine
Does anyone else here prefer to have shorter vacations and higher pay? I've
taken a few vacations in my life and they've tended to be less fun than
working (at least after the first 3 days. Before that it's awesome).

~~~
camiller
well..... as long as we are being truthful, after 10 days vacation with a wife
and two kids getting back to work is a relief. I'm often more stressed by
vacation than work, but one of my children has "special needs" and despite the
fact that I love him with all my heart, the constant monitoring what he eats,
what he is doing, if he has craped himself, etc. takes a lot out of a
vacation. That said, next year in February I'm taking a 2 week trip to South
America with just my daughter and meeting up with some cousins and other
extended family from both the states and Ecuador and Panama. My south American
cousins I haven't seen in thirty years. I'm very much looking forward to it. (
and on that note, I think I'll have to post a "ask HN" on language learning
options to brush up on my 25 years forgotten high school Spanish (if one
doesn't exist already).

------
gst
Do US employers (especially startups) typically agree to agree to offer unpaid
vacations? Or are those 0 to 10 or 15 days really a hard limit?

------
Kratos
Why is this on HN? Please, bring back the no politics rule. If you want to
talk politics on the internets, there are plenty of other sites out there.

------
siphr
Who linked this piece of crap and why is at the top? Utter nonsense! Whoever
shared this, please consider opra winfrey websites or others of those sort.

~~~
beedogs
good to see the new users raising the level of discourse here.

------
code_scrapping
Well, that's just sad. You do know that the rest of the world is having
problems at finding a job at all, or at least getting paid on regular basis?
Cry me a river.

~~~
GFischer
That isn't a constructive comment at all, not to mention untrue: here in
Uruguay we have a record low unemployment, for example (and zero unemployment
in IT).

Whether you'd be willing to work for my wage is another problem, but I do have
20 days' worth of paid vacations.

~~~
code_scrapping
You're right, I wasn't being constructive, but neither is this article if you
consider that this isn't US-only. I'm also certain that millionaires also have
a lot of personal problems, and yet also find little empathy from other
people. I admit, I have not checked the current situation of Uruguay, or many
other countries for that matter, yet I'm pretty certain that "I'm afraid to go
on a vacation, my boss is treating me bad" is a personal and not a IT issue at
all.

Want constructive comments - give constructive topics.

