
An Offer - palish
Hello friends,<p>Recently, a startup made me an offer to move to San Francisco from Missouri to work with them.  It would be great to get your thoughts and opinions, and to learn from your experience.<p>I'm nineteen, and I've been programming for seven years.  I left high school when I was seventeen to work in the video game industry.  Over the last few years, my job has improved my programming skill from "decent" to "pretty competent".  I can hold my own, fix bugs that aren't mine, and implement new features and big systems.  Some screenshots of my three-year-old demos can be found here:  <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/16941908@N08/" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/16941908@N08/</a>   and you can actually play those demos by downloading them from here:  <a href="http://www.mediafire.com/?b9mvmstg04v" rel="nofollow">http://www.mediafire.com/?b9mvmstg04v</a>  <p>The startup is a group of seriously awesome fellas, and they're extremely smart.  It would be fantastic to jump into the startup scene feet-first by joining them.  <p>To keep confidentiality, let's say that I would be anywhere from the 7th to the 10th hire.  I was offered a salary of $60,000.  As to the stock, I'm extremely new to the terminology, so please bear with me.  To avoid saying the exact share numbers, let's pretend that I was offered four shares, vested over four years.  The total number of "authorized shares" is then 2391.56, and the total number of "issued shares" is 1916.1.  (Again, those numbers are not the actual numbers, but they are accurate in proportion with each other.)  There is a double trigger acceleration of 50%, so if they were bought before the shares were fully vested, I'd receive 50% of the rest.<p>Is that offer reasonable?  I'm certainly not counting on them getting bought.  I'd simply like to find an interesting project and then really throw myself at it.  <p>Some other questions, if you don't mind:  What's it like to live in, or near, San Francisco?  What would you do in this situation?  <p>Thanks a lot.  I really appreciate your feedback on this.<p>Shawn
======
menloparkbum
San Francisco is awesome compared to Missouri. Unless you're a real down-home
homebody type - then it may be your worst nightmare. ;-)

$60K is great for 19. As usual there are a bunch of people talking about how
it "isn't much for the bay area." But - ignore them. Most people outside of
the tech industry in SF don't make $60K, and they get by. Most 19 year olds
are making $7/hr, part time.

How to live large on $60K in SF:

\- Don't rent your own place at first. It is better to live with roommates.
You can rent a room for $600-$1000, depending on how nice of a place you want
and what neighborhood you're in.

\- If you are working in the city, don't bring a car.

\- If your job is in the city, don't live outside the city. Commuting costs
aren't too bad, but if you live somewhere far out, like Berkeley or down on
the Peninsula, and have to work late, you will get stuck covering a huge Taxi
bill from time to time.

\- Learn to love cheap food. Burritos, Pho, Bahn mi, pizza slices, etc.

\- Being 19, you're too young to go to bars, so you will automatically save a
lot of money on the weekends...

\- Craig's list, Chinatown and IKEA for all your house stuff

\- Costo, Trader Joe's for groceries and sundry items

It should be pretty fun.

I moved to Manhattan when I was 19. Manhattan was and is still way more
expensive than SF. I only made $55K, and I managed to save about $10K my first
year there, and I went out and did random stuff all the time.

~~~
herdrick
Agreed, definitely find a roommate situation on Craigslist. The process of
going around from place to place meeting possible roommates is also a great
way to make friends, including friends of a romantic nature, and to get a
better feel for the city and how to get around in it.

As for leaving the car at home... I mostly disagree. It's good to get out of
the city and go hiking or whatever. You need a car for that.

Most of all, yes, come to SF. Where else can you find things like this:
<http://superhappydevhouse.org/> ? You won't regret it. Post here again if you
are looking for more advice.

~~~
menloparkbum
I agree that a car is nice for getting out of the city, and I miss my car for
exactly that reason. However, parking + parking tickets is going to run you
about $300/m. Add in gas + insurance and even the worst car that is fully paid
for (like my old car) will cost $500/m.

I switched to City Car Share (www.citycarshare.org) and spend maybe $60 every
three months on a car. They have a new plan where you can rent a car for an
entire day for $40, which is a good deal. Especially since a 19 year old
cannot rent a car from one of the standard car rental places (usually have to
be 25+).

------
rms
In your position, I would take the offer. You get to move from Missouri to one
of the world's best cities. SF is one of two cities in America with 24/7
public transportation. Weed is legal, which reflects the extremely socially
liberal feel of the city. SF has an actual music scene.

.16% of the company is low. You can try and get more, of course, but the offer
as it stands is a great way for you to relocate to SF. If you don't fall in
love with this company, you can always find a better job with a different
company.

$60,000 is low for an uber-hacker in SF but it's plenty to live, especially
when you're relatively young. Get a roommate if you want to live in a decent
place in a safe part of town, otherwise, the less safe or more boring parts of
town are cheaper. I'm trying to find a place on Craigslist now for an upcoming
move to SF... right now I'm looking in the Castro, Mission, and Noe Valley
areas. However, few places are available in advance on Craigslist. I think the
way it actually works is the place is listed on Craigslist, you go to the open
house the next day and beg the landlord to take your deposit, and maybe you
can get the place. Things are not nearly as tight outside of SF proper, but
there is a reason SF housing is in such high demand.

This is a good overview of SF neighborhoods.
<http://www.dreamworld.org/sfguide/Neighborhoods/index.html>

~~~
mhb
> weed is legal

What makes you think so?

~~~
rms
Email me and I would be happy to elaborate.

~~~
staunch
Even if it was true that it is outright legal in SF (which it's not) you're
ignoring the fact that the feds can bust someone without regard to local laws.
This is off topic, but if someone moving to SF took your words at face value
they could get into trouble.

~~~
rms
>if someone moving to SF took your words at face value

I give the users of this site a lot more credit than that.

~~~
davidw
+1

Especially a user like Palish who has been around long enough to read rms'
comments;-)

------
brk
Here is something that I tell a lot of my friends that are looking to get into
the "startup" world: You're going to get hosed on your first job.

The pay won't be what it should, you're likely to get a tiny percentage of
stock that has a low probability of being worth much in the end. BUT, you'll
be in the game, you'll learn a lot, and you'll meet smart people.

From this first experience you will enter into your second startup employment
round better educated and in a better position to negotiate.

As long as you can live off the salary for a year or two, and they're covering
your relocation, I'd say go for it and enjoy the ride. You can almost always
move back to MO and be richer for the experience, if nothing else.

------
iamelgringo
Personally, what you're getting offered seems rather low, but I'm not sure. I
know that living on 60k is going to be difficult in San Francisco, but you're
young, and may not object to ramen noodles. Look on Craigslist.com to find out
what rents are for a room in San Fran before you move out. I know that 60k
might seem like a lot when you're 20, but it's really not that much out here
in the Bay area.

If you really like the group of programmers, and you really want to move to
the Bay, that's worth something, take that into consideration. And, there's
always the "chase your dream" scenario that's worth something as well.

As to the stock options: If those are the ratio's, you're not going to be
getting much if the company gets acquired. Think about it this way. If there
are 3000 shares outstanding, and you get 4 shares, you own %0.13 of the
company ( 4/3000). Now, whatever the company gets acquired for, you receive %
0.13 of that amount. So, if the company gets acquired for $10 million, you get
$13,000. $100 million, and you get $130,000.

As an aside, there are precious few companies getting acquired for $100
million. There aren't that many acquiring companies that can afford it.

Another issue: There is a lot of competition in the Bay area as opposed to
other parts of the country. There are a lot of incredibly smart people out
here with several degrees and tons of experience. San Fran has some of the
highest per capita Phd's in the nation. It can be a bit intimidating when your
first arrive. You go from being one of the elite geeks in your small pond, to
being just another techie in a huge ocean of nerds.

I've known a couple of people who came out here, and felt blown away by their
own lack of education. It's easy to feel pretty inadequate. Paul Graham can
write about the problems with the educational system, but Paul also has his
PhD in Computer Science from Harvard. So, take that into consideration, too.
He also recommends people finish their college degrees before starting their
startups.

I've always been one to chase my dreams, however despite what anyone else
said. If you really want it, you'll find a way to make it work.

~~~
rms
>I know that living on 60k is going to be difficult in San Francisco, but
you're young, and may not object to ramen noodles.

$60,000 a year. Let's say it's $42,000 after tax. That gives our pal $3,500 a
month. $1600 gets him a very nice studio apartment without roommates and
covers utilities (no fiber internet available, unfortunately). He has $1900 a
month to buy food, clothing, and entertainment... this would be enough to eat
three solid meals a day in mid priced restaurants. Food isn't particularly
expensive in San Francisco either, it's not like New York. Doesn't sound like
a bad standard of living to me in the slightest, unless I'm missing something.

~~~
iamelgringo
hmmm... $1900 a month.

Utilities: Cell phone: $40-50 a month easy Internet access: $60 a month Other
utilities? Electricity? Water? Garbage? $50-75 Food: $15 a day x 30 days a
month= $450 (This is the low end. Have you been to Safeway lately?) going out
to eat twice a week for one month? $20 bucks a plate = 160 Cable? $30-60 a
month. or $110 a month Comcast cable/high speed bundle.

So, the total for those utilities you're looking at 700-900 a month, unless
you can get some of those bundled with your place.

Transportation: Car? $100 a month in insurance on the low end. Car payment?:
300 a month (low end more for a new car) Gas? $100-150 Parking??? To have a
car, you're talking a total of 500-700 a month in expenses. It'll be cheaper
if you take the Muni, of course, but then you have to factor in occasional cab
rides and car rentals if you want to go out of the city.

So, just in expenses, you're talking $1100 - 1800 a month. That doesn't
include clothes, any bills that you have to pay like credit cards, or school
loans. You will probably have to fly home once or twice a year to visit mom
and go to the required family reunion. If you're like me, when you're living
on your own in a large city by yourself, you go out a lot more often, and eat
out a lot more than twice a week. That also doesn't include emergency expenses
like parking tickets, car repairs, a new laptop once a year, World of Warcraft
subscription, new IPod, etc...

You could probably manage on 60k a year, but it's going to be really tight.
And, if you don't watch out, those credit card bills will start creeping up in
a hurry. That's all I'm saying.

~~~
jsnx
Rent usually includes wireless internet around here.

~~~
rms
I had never seen so many access points as when I was in San Francisco. You
might even get lucky and find a default password WRT-54G that will let you
wirelessly flash the firmware.

------
paul
The offer sounds fair. If you're excited about the people and the company,
then you should take the job.

------
streblo
As someone who is around the same age as you, who is also considering going
into a computer graphics related field, and has around the same amount of
experience, I would love to get an offer like that once I graduate. Sure, 60k
might be a little low for the SF area, but who really cares that much? It
takes care of the basics, and thats all you'll really need (I assume you're
not looking to start a family any time soon). You'll be living in an awesome
city (where a lot of people in the field dream of living), getting a load of
new experience, and working with people who will probably teach you more than
you could learn on your own in the same amount of time.

------
mronge
From my own experience I've found the percentage your looking at, 0.166, to be
about the industry average for a software engineer joining around the 10th
person.

~~~
rms
In the sense that many people on this forum are the uber-productive hackers
described by PG in essay form, the industry average is low.

~~~
tptacek
Not if it's what the market bears.

~~~
rms
Sure -- I am saying that the industry average is low for an uber-hacker,
because he or she is worth more... this gets us to the Grahamian theory of
business, where the only way to get paid what you are worth is to start a
company.

~~~
cperciva
_I am saying that the industry average is low for an uber-hacker..._

I don't have any direct knowledge of palish's qualifications, and I certainly
mean him no disrespect -- but his self-description (19 years old, programming
for 7 years, high school drop-out) doesn't exactly scream "uber-hacker" to me.

~~~
palish
I'm not. But I do my best and learn more every day.

~~~
cperciva
Right, and (speaking as a 26 year old with a doctorate in CS) what you've done
is quite impressive for a 19 year old. But you have to compare this job offer
to the other jobs available to you -- not compare it to the jobs available to
other YCers (which is, in effect, what you're doing by asking what other YCers
would do in this situation).

------
neilc
I'd say take the offer. $60k isn't a huge amount in the Bay Area (the cost of
living is crazy here), but it's definitely enough to live on if you're 19.
~0.1% equity is also a bit on the low side.

BUT, I think the most important factor is the experience. If the guys you're
going to be working with are top-class and if you think you'll learn a lot
(sounds like it), then take the job and don't worry about the compensation too
much. Working with intelligent colleagues is the best way to become a better
hacker, not to mention making great networking contacts and positioning
yourself for a higher-paying job down the line. When you're just starting your
career, 60k vs. 75k doesn't make nearly as much of a difference as working
with "B" coworkers vs. working with "A+" superstars.

As far as living in SF, there's a big difference between living in San
Francisco itself and living in the SF Bay Area. SF will be somewhat more
expensive, but it's a blast when you're young, and I'm guessing a big upgrade
from Missouri. The Bay Area is a lot more suburban; there's less culture, and
you typically need to go to San Francisco or San Jose if you want to go out.

------
mrtron
You are still extremely young. Now is the time to take risks and make moves,
while it is still a high priority for you.

60k is enough to live on. A small percentage of the company is enough to make
it extra lucrative.

What I would personally use the experience for was seeing how the industry
works, meeting people with similar interests as you and people you would want
to work again in the future.

Good luck!

------
jsnx
I just found a room in a house in SF -- $900 covers utilities, internet,
furnishings and rent. It's in the Mission, a well liked neighborhood.

An overlooked part of SF life is people who are sick of living in a city. They
want to go to bed at a reasonable hour, know their neighbours and feel like a
handshake can close a deal. I've never had to submit a credit report to a
landlord.

However, most of my computer/finance friends (late twenties) have not had the
same experience -- because of the company they keep. Do not hang out with
other posh kids the time! They aren't much involved with the City and know
little but the bars.

As far as a car goes, definitely don't bring one with you. On the few
occasions when you need to drive, you can rent a car for a few hours (one
service is called ZipCar, there are others) and then be done with it.

Food in SF is good -- as good as any city in the States, and some items
(wines, of course, but also bread and cheeses and chipotles) have
international renown.

------
gby
Shawn,

Two thing to consider about stock options: dilution and additional options
grant.

You can be diluted at any time. That is the company can award additional
shares and options that will make your 4 shares a smaller part of the pie.

In theory, this should only happen if the person getting the extra shares puts
more money into the company, so you will have a smaller share of a bigger pie.

In practice, it doesn't have to be. You can just get a smaller share of the
same pie...

On the other hand, should you prove you worth to the company, it is customary
that you will get additional options granted later on, as the company will
want to keep you interested and motivated.

For an early stage startup, both have an even chance of happening.

I've had both happen to me (with the same startup). By the time the startup
was bought I had a bigger option grant then I started with - but it was worth
much less due to dilution.

Bottom line: the amount or portion of stocks you are granted when you start
working is meaningless or close to meaningless.

But I'd take the job anyway. San Fran is cool.

Good luck! gby

~~~
brk
It's also worth noting that there are usually "common" and "preferred" shares.
Between employees and investors, you can guess who gets which type, and which
type gets paid first in an equity event.

------
cellis
hey dude,

I'm a 20 year old guy in almost the same shoes as you, except I dropped out
freshman year of college. $60k sounds cool, definitely a good net ~15000$ more
than the $40k I am getting, but I have no idea what SF living costs are ( i
live in a suburb of a small metro with 4 roomies for $300/mo ).

Do you plan on getting rich with them when you say "I'd simply like to find an
interesting project and then really throw myself at it", or do you plan on
starting your own thing? I've worked at 2 jobs (both enterprise; one was crazy
hours and high pay when I was 19 (yup, red bulls all day), and the one I have
now is very smooth at 9-5), and I can honestly say that I haven't found any
truly interesting projects at either of them. If the answer is yes, and you
think they have a good shot at getting rich within 4 years, the $60k should be
a small factor in your decision.

------
mikesabat
What's the alternative in MO? At 19 I would say the biggest question is if you
are ready to go out and live on your own.

It seems like a good opportunity to jump into the scene.

------
jadams
60K seems like good money for an entry-level game programming job. I wouldn't
count on any profit sharing or equity to be worth anything. If it is, great,
but don't count on it.

The game industry is organized kind of like the music industry. Small studios
are the bands to the publisher's record companies. Small studios (typically
under-funded and over-ambitious) beg the big guys for money to work on
projects. They often get screwed. Fight to get your name in the credits of any
game you release. OTOH, many many games never get released.

Hm. Re-reading your post, it occurs to me that the startup may not be a game
company.

------
acgourley
If you like the idea and the people, you should definitely come out and give
it a shot. The stock offer seems slim, but I don't know how old the company
is. What it really comes down to is deciding if you'll like the company and
people you're working with, since almost everyone likes the bay area as a
place to live. So come visit, meet the guys, see the area, and decide after
that.

------
ALee
Ask the questions listed in this post (it was linked to YC some time ago):
[http://www.genuinevc.com/archives/2005/10/seven_questions.ht...](http://www.genuinevc.com/archives/2005/10/seven_questions.htm).

I agree with rms though. Just remember that you should choose the next step
based on whether you're going to learn something new. If you are, take it.

------
mynameishere
At 19, absolutely. At my age, no, because I've turned down better offers.

------
acgourley
As far as the salary goes, it's a bit lower than what a college graduate would
expect from a startup in the area, but it might be fair for your age
(depending on benefits). You might be able to push for either more stock or
more pay... the job market is very tight for good developers around here.

------
cperciva
According to salary.com, $60k in San Francisco gives you the same standard of
living as $28k in St.Louis, MO. How does that compare to what you're earning
right now? I'm guessing that it's considerably less.

Now, how much do you think the company will end up being worth? $10M? $50M?
$100M? Divide that number by 2000 and that's what your annual stock grant
could be worth -- in the above cases, $5k/year, $25k/year, or $50k/year -- but
remember that you won't get that money until the company has a "liquidity
event".

Is what you've calculated your potential stock windfall to be worth enough to
balance out the fact that your salary will provide for a lower standard of
living over the next few years than you're used to? There's your answer.

~~~
paul
Those "standard of living" comparisons are silly and misleading. It's better
to just calculate your actual expenses (as others here have done). I'd much
rather live off of $60k in SF than $28k in St Louis.

------
theremora
Go for it. The object is to get in the game. I am assuming you have checked
out your company and seriously awesome fellas means they have quantifiable
accomplishments. Have you negotiated with them at all? 100% of the shots you
dont take, dont go in. Tell then you will accept the offer if they can up the
salary to $70K. Wait and see what they say. read this
<http://tinyurl.com/2bb8ve>

------
kingnothing
If it were me, I would want more than .1% of the total shares. I don't live in
California, but how competitve is that salary for what you'll be doing?

------
mooneater
Press for more stock.

------
dzohrob
don't worry about making $60k. i'm 26, i've lived in SF for a few years, and i
started bootstrapping my own startup earlier this year on a (post-tax) budget
of ~$2400/mo, including a studio apartment and health insurance. i'm sure you
can do better than me. :)

------
herdrick
As for compensation, I think everybody who comes to the Bay Area gets somewhat
screwed in their first job here. Once you get a foothold here and start making
contacts, you can easily find something that pays more.

------
PStamatiou
finish high school and then college (and a startup on the side if you like).
if this offer doesn't work out, a degree is a nice thing to fall back on and
is required for larger careers down the line. and with a degree you can expect
and ask for a higher salary. just my thoughts.

~~~
mechanical_fish
Far be it from me to argue against higher ed -- I spent thirteen of the best
years of my life in college, if you count the postdoctoral fellowship -- but
if I were you I would take the job now and go to college later. There's plenty
of time, and it's not like they stop letting you in to college because you're
too old.

The thing about getting some work experience before you go to school is that
it may make you a better student. You'll have a better idea of what you want
to learn and why. You'll be better equipped to recruit future colleagues from
among your fellow students, and you'll have better war stories to tell them
when you're sitting at the bar.

The idea that "a degree is a nice thing to fall back on" is true, but the
reverse is even more true: If your career falters, you can always go to
college. (If you have the money, of course... but if you won't have the money
then, you probably don't have the money now either!)

~~~
pius
I would think long and hard about this one. College just ain't the same if you
go when you're 30. You've got your whole life to mind your career.

~~~
mechanical_fish
Well, yes, I'm sure that college is much different as a 30-year-old with a
nice car, the right to buy beer legally, a worldly-wise attitude and a pile of
money saved up from your ten-year hacking career. For one thing, girls may
actually _want_ to talk to you!

But, seriously: I agree that the college experience may be most enjoyable when
you're in your twenties, if only because that's how old most of the other
students are. You may not want to be so old that you feel a generation gap
with your own classmates. But the guy is _nineteen_. He's got _eleven years to
go_ before he's thirty. He can afford to work at three or four startups and
_still_ graduate from college before he's thirty.

------
smopburrito
it's better to regret something you did than something you didn't do. go for
it.

~~~
run4yourlives
In fact, my experience is that most people regret what they "didn't do" rather
than what they did.

~~~
pius
This is true. The problem with the logic is that everything has an opportunity
cost (i.e. if you're doing one thing, there's something else that you're not
doing). So on the face of things, using this argument to advise someone trying
to choose between a few mutually exclusive options is tantamount to saying
nothing at all.

For example, suppose that in the near term the OP will either move to San
Francisco for this startup or attend college.

If he takes this full-time job, he'll miss out on the unique educational and
social opportunity that is going to college full-time.

If he takes this opportunity to go to college, he'll miss out on the unique
educational and social opportunity that is working on a startup full-time.

Obviously these two seem symmetrical. I'd argue, though, that after going to
college for four years, it would actually be easier to replicate the startup
experience he'd miss now than it would be to replicate the college experience
four years from now when he'll be "the old guy" in his freshman dorm. Unless
he's Van Wilder, that may not be the best social situation in the world.

Of course, this is all a red herring if he's not interested in going to
college right now.

