
Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job - hourislate
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/04/opinion/video-games-layoffs-union.html
======
CM30
> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game
> developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than
> demand

This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven
industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is
cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions
that for every person who quits, ten more are lining up for the 'opportunity'.

You can see this in all manner of arts or entertainment based fields, since
there are far more people wanting to become artists/musicians/writers/whatever
than there is demand for their services. You can see it in journalism, where
in many cases organisations will try and get work done for free, and will pay
so little that living off said wages is virtually impossible in a major city
if you don't have a trust fund (though admittedly the huge increase in
competition from the internet puts pressure there). And I even recall people
saying it's one reason teaching wages aren't too high either.

Unionisation may help, but the only practical solution is for people to stop
taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion', and to go where
their skills are appreciated/where they're treated better/fairly compensated.

~~~
derefr
> the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs
> because of some sense of 'passion'

So the “practical” solution is to change human nature? That doesn’t sound
right. It’d be like saying that the practical solution to human trafficking is
for people to stop visiting prostitutes; or that the solution to gangs’ drug
income is for people to stop buying drugs.

In all these cases, you can quash _supply_ ; or you can _constrain_ and
_regulate_ the way that the supply supplies, so that it doesn’t hurt people in
the process; but—even in the most totalitarian state you can imagine—you can’t
quash demand. Humans gonna want what humans gonna want.

In this case, the demand is “the ability to express myself to a huge
audience.” People are willing to _pay_ to do that. Because of that, they see
any _job_ where they get to do it as a net positive, even if the job is
horrible. Because, in essence, they’re taking the original trade they had in
mind (paying to reach an audience) and then balancing out an increase in the
troublesomeness of doing that, with a payment for dealing with that
troublesomeness that moves the needle all the way from “paying for” to “being
paid for.”

~~~
slg
>In this case, the demand is “the ability to express myself to a huge
audience.” People are willing to pay to do that. Because of that, they see any
job where they get to do it as a net positive, even if the job is horrible.

This is true for any job that is just an extension of a hobby. People put on
local community theater productions in their spare time because they find it
fun and fulfilling. You don't have to pay people to do that, so the pay for
people to do it professionally would naturally be low in a free market system.

Do you know another profession like that? Software development. People spend
countless hours working on open source software for free just because they
like it. The open source community saves businesses billions in labor costs
every year. Would anyone suggest we get rid of the open source community so
developers could be better compensated? We are just lucky enough that the
global demand for general software development is much higher than the demand
for video game development or theater/TV/movies that it can offset these other
factors.

~~~
adrianhel
And the type of software people make for free is not the same software people
get paid to create.

I bet few people would be eager to develop banking software on their free time
for instance.

~~~
archgoon
People would not want to build banking software for a specific company;
however, if banks were to describe their problems in a sufficiently well
defined way, people would cheerfully build various 'bank frameworks' for free.
Some college student would happily have it on their resume.

This of course would have to have banks be more open about how they operate,
so it probably won't happen.

This is to say, it's not really the type of software that is the issue, but
rather lack of openness about the problem domain.

~~~
ghaff
Might be starting to happen more than you think.

AMQP (messaging) came out of JPMC and other financial institutions

Financial institutions are also involved in blockchain projects

Another random example: [https://developer.capitalone.com/open-
source/](https://developer.capitalone.com/open-source/)

~~~
indigochill
Also Goldman Sachs just announced they'd be releasing some additional software
on Github: [https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/goldmans-trading-floor-
is-...](https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/goldmans-trading-floor-is-going-
open-source-sort-of-20190404)

------
pslam
It is appalling that the top 3 comments (at time of writing this one) are
victim-blaming. "They should get better jobs". "There's a high demand so they
should go elsewhere". "They should have known before they went there".

Where have you been in the last few years, and how have you not learned
anything about abusive practices which entrap people? These companies are
basically abusive — they abuse their staff with long hours and low benefits,
taking full advantage of the cool-factor to entangle them. As anyone who has
the slightest empathy and has read anything in the news cycle in the last few
years would know, people caught in this situation are often unaware they're
being abused, blame themselves, and don't realize there is better elsewhere.

If you're one of the people who are, right now reading this, thinking "That's
a load of BS these people are idiots and they deserve what they get", then I
implore that you think again and realize you are essentially blaming the
victim. That's almost never the right side to be on.

What we need to do is expose these companies for what they really. Put all
these things out in the open and air them for all to see. Perhaps at some
point we can have all the major studios unionized, and perhaps once their
internal cultures become less toxic, their external one will likewise clear up
a bit. Here's hoping.

~~~
gridlockd
Apparently, _everyone_ is a victim these days simply by making life decisions
they end up regretting. Nobody is responsible for anything concerning
themselves anymore.

The idea that these people are _entrapped_ is a bunch of nonsense. We're not
talking about people that have zero alternatives besides scraping at the
bottom of a barrel. We're talking about people that are already well-paid and
would be even higher paid if only they decided to switch industries. They
_can_ switch jobs and they _do_ switch jobs.

That's simply the truth. It's not victim blaming. The allegation of victim
blaming itself is dishonest. These people aren't _victims_. These people have
jobs they don't like. Welcome to adulthood, comrades!

~~~
enraged_camel
>>Apparently, everyone is a victim these days simply by making life decisions
they end up regretting. Nobody is responsible for anything concerning
themselves anymore.

No one makes decisions in a vacuum. People's behaviors are informed by their
upbringing and circumstances, most of which they have no control over. Studies
show that people are deeply affected by those around them, and their role
models (whether those be friends or family members) have a deep impact on the
paths they take in life. For example, arranging regular interactions between
kids in school and young, successful white collar professionals drastically
increases the likelihood that those kids end up picking similar careers. In
contrast, if they are surrounded by high crime and poverty, they tend to not
do so well.

This is why one should not rush to judgment when discussing these issues:
things are never as simple as "well, they made the wrong decisions in life."
Even if the decisions were indeed wrong in retrospect, at the time they might
have looked like (or actually have been) the right ones, or simply the best
ones available.

~~~
manfredo
The point is, these jobs still pay an average of over $90k year. They may come
with serious hours but that's not unheard of in many white collar industries
(e.g. finance, medicine, law). To turn around and call these people victims is
really not valuable, and seriously degrades what it means to be a "victim" of
labor practices. There are jobs that are a lot harder to do and pay a lot less
that nobody bats an eye about.

The video game industry has been nothing but transparent about the working
conditions, at least from what I've seen. Every game Dev I've talked to has
been clear that working on X field in the game industry is going to be more
stressful and less lucrative than applying the same skills elsewhere. The
slogan in my CS department was that the game Dev industry is twice the pay for
half the work.

While many do have fulfilling careers it was common sense to me and my peers
that going into the game development industry was not worth it unless your
passion seriously outweighs practical interests. Some people think they belong
in that group and later find out that they misjudged their priorities. They
made a life decision they regret but they are not victims. No more than my
sister is a victim of biology because she studied biology and discovered after
graduation she didn't like biology and changed to working in tech.

------
gavman
> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game
> developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than
> demand.

That's the crux of this entire article in one sentence. This might be an
upopular opinion here, but right now the supply of developers overall [across
all industries] is much lower than demand. No one is forcing a developer to
work for a game studio. It might be your dream job, but if you're not treated
well you're a highly talented skilled worker, go work for someone else. Let
the supply diminish because of the working conditions and alternatives and
suddenly studios won't have the option to treat their employees this way.

edit: typos

~~~
titanomachy
You're right. I have sympathy for game developers: no one should have to
endure those conditions. But I also don't understand them. The state of the
industry is so widely publicised, and there are so many amazing jobs outside
of gaming for people with that skill set.

Probably the reason I don't get it is that I'm not really "into" games. I like
playing Civ or overwatch a few times a month, mostly to keep in touch with old
friends, but there must be people out there who care so much about video games
that they can't imagine working on anything else. Maybe these are the people
who choose to endure the awful conditions.

~~~
ip26
_The state of the industry is so widely publicised..._

The people ensnared & abused the most, genearlly seem to be very young
developers, fresh out of college or high school. That age group is, through no
fault of their own, never particularly worldly or in touch with current
working conditions.

------
samcday
> In many of these cases, laid-off employees had no idea what was coming. One
> developer at a major studio told me in February that he and his colleagues
> had been crunching — putting in long hours, including nights and weekends —
> for a video game release, only to be suddenly told that security was waiting
> to escort them off the premises.

Man, that really sucks, if you think about it. I'm sure many people here on HN
have worked very hard on something in their life. I know I have, and in a
couple of cases I ended up being acutely unhappy with the outcomes. But, DAMN,
at least none of my moments of extreme toil were punctuated like this.

~~~
jfk13
In a civilised society, it would be illegal for an employer to behave like
that.

(Yes, I know, I'm imposing my view of what it would mean to be "civilised",
and not everyone will agree.)

~~~
hannasanarion
There are plenty of countries where all employers are required to give certain
notice, and you can't suddenly fire someone. It is outrageous that your
ability to eat and pay rent can be taken away with zero notice in America.

~~~
thecatspaw
That just means they have to pay you for some time after they fired you.

You can still be fired in an instant and be escorted out the door, especially
if you have/had access to critical systems

~~~
shawabawa3
Actually, at least in the UK, you can't be fired without cause.

Normally you'll have to be told that you're underperforming, be put on a
"performance improvement plan", and have to be given time to improve yourself,
or demonstrate that you are performing well.

You can be made redundant for no reason, but you have to be warned the moment
management are considering redundancies that your job is at risk, and you are
able to make a case for how redundancies could be avoided, or how your
position could be changed to fit into the new structure. If you are made
redundant, you have to be paid extra (although it's a tiny amount and only
after 2 years)

~~~
fbonetti
> ...you can't be fired without cause. Normally you'll have to be told that
> you're underperforming, be put on a "performance improvement plan", and have
> to be given time to improve yourself, or demonstrate that you are performing
> well.

This is de facto the case in the United States as well. Employers will put
employees on a PIP before letting them go to prevent them from claiming that
they were wrongfully terminated (due to discrimination, retaliation, etc.).

------
Tiktaalik
My video game developers need unions story:

I was a core developer on a major feature of Sleeping Dogs/'True Crime: Hong
Kong' for 2+ years. At one point, when the game was still being published by
ATVI under the title 'True Crime: Hong Kong', ATVI cancelled the game and 100+
developers were laid off including me. Fast forward a few months and
miraculously Square Enix decided to pick up the publishing rights for the
name, invested a few more months in polish to finish up the title and released
it as Sleeping Dogs. I was of course delighted that this canned game saw the
light of day and people were able to play it.

In Sleeping Dogs, despite the significant work I put on the project my name
appears in 'Special Thanks' instead of being listed as part of the development
team. This is very unfair and inappropriate.

Enforcing a clear set of crediting rules would be one of the things that a
game developers union could do.

~~~
jarsin
Did you use skookumscript? Just curious because they say it was heavily used
in Sleeping Dogs.

I like skookumscript and miss it now that I switched from unreal to unity.

~~~
Tiktaalik
Yes. The primary author of skookumscript worked at UFG.

I helped designers debug many failing skookumscripts and built a lot of hooks
for them for specialized missions.

------
noego
I'm all for protecting the vulnerable and underprivileged. I'm all for
universal healthcare, increased minimum wages/EITC, and increased taxes on the
rich.

But I'm very skeptical of the idea that white collar professionals earning
well above the median, are somehow in need of "protecting". They have every
opportunity to quit the video game industry and take up very lucrative and
easygoing jobs in other industries. They are expressly choosing not to do so.
That is their choice, and their burden to bear.

Anything that reduces competition in the marketplace is bad for society as a
whole. This is why I'm all in favor of anti-trust regulations and breaking up
the tech giants. This is also why I'm not a fan of unions. Maybe a case can be
made for specially disadvantaged demographics. I just don't see it for
programmers.

~~~
erik998
Those were my initial feelings as well. I guess the issue comes down to
focusing on software development as a skill and having that skill rewarded in
manner you can count on.

Our industry is really similar to actors. They have SAG and their guild
negotiates with the MPAA. So every studio needs to belong to MPAA. Every year
they negotiate the daily/weekly minimum rates for actors with SAG. They are
pretty flexible with different rates for indy films vs big budget films.

It's not so hard to imagine a software developers guild where they negotiate
for a daily/weekly minimum for developers, dba's, qa's, devops, and such...

[https://www.sagaftra.org/production-
center/contract/810/rate...](https://www.sagaftra.org/production-
center/contract/810/rate-sheet/document)

If you are celebrity equivalent of a developer, then you can get paid more.
There are no real restrictions. You don't see famous actors getting paid below
the daily minimum. When they work for a big budget film they typically get x
multiple times the daily rate. Also, if they want to work on an indy film they
can agree to those minimum daily rates as well.

I think its flexible enough so if you want to work for a nonprofit you can
just accept the daily/weekly minimum vs asking full price if you work for
FAANG.

I don't think it's a crazy amount of protections but it sets aside a basic set
of standards you can expect from job to job.

If your are over 120k they suggest actors create a loan out corporation at
that point...

[https://firemark.com/2015/01/12/should-you-have-a-loan-
out-c...](https://firemark.com/2015/01/12/should-you-have-a-loan-out-company-
for-your-work-in-entertainment/)

Can you imagine all the FAANG companies having to setup a Software Industry
Association to negotiate with a Software Developers Guild every year? It seems
plausible. It's probably in their best interest as well. These companies could
just dump any social issues on to the union and just focus on making profits.
The ability to lock out competitors might force other big software dev
employers to join the association as well.

------
wmil
Jason Schreier has been pushing for game developers to unionize for a while
now.

In the case of programmers, it really doesn't make much sense. There's a lot
of BS that can come with unions. They have transferable skills. It's just
easier to change jobs.

For more specialized workers a union probably does make sense, eg: 3d artists,
game testers.

But I think union organizers are really only interested in the programmers,
because they'll probably generate the most dues.

~~~
papermill
Jason Schreier has never worked as developer or in the gaming industry. It's
insane how so many people give these people so much credence and attention.
The guy literally doesn't know what he is a talking about. Also 3d artists and
game testers/QA/etc are transferable skills just like programmers.

~~~
Slippery_John
What does it matter that he isn't a game developer? I don't need to be an
industrial revolution era child factory worker to understand that the
conditions they labored under were inhumane.

------
rubicon33
It's incredible reading through the comments on this post and nobody seems to
see the game industry for what it is: the canary in the coal mine.

Programming within the game industry is sliding rapidly toward blue collar,
and you'd be a fool to assume the problem is contained. The problem for
programmers is simple - Supply and Demand.

Thanks to a massive publicity push from big tech, the public is being sold -
hook line and sinker - a story about how we're in a "shortage of developers"
and how everyone needs to "learn to code". Combine that with the plethora of
boot camps, and online materials, and it's never been easier to pickup
JavaScript on a weekend and be coding a website.

I've never seen people shoot themselves in the foot more. For god sakes,
you're sawing your foot off at this point. There is now a massive wave of
young developers, just getting their footing who will be entering a work force
near you in the next 10-20 years. And don't forget about remote workers, they
gun for your job too. It's becoming more and more technically feasible for a
software shop in the US to hire a dev team based in, I dunno, China. I've seen
it happen to a group of incredible devs. At the end of the day, the numbers
didn't pencil in their favor.

Ask yourselves if you really think the good times will always roll. Really ask
yourself if Obama standing up in front of the nation beckoning for everyone to
"Learn to Code" was really good for you, or good for the big tech companies
that got him up there? Wake up, and smell the ashes. There are industry and
economic forces actively working AGAINST you. Don't help them. Stop parroting
the narrative that there is a "shortage of developers", for starters. And
hedge your bets while you're at it - get really good at something. Specialize.
Maybe it's firmware, maybe it's iOS AR, maybe its machine learning, find
something niche, and get world class level good at it. In 15 years, hopefully
you'll be one of the few still making "6 figure salaries".

~~~
spc476
While that may be true, I can't but think of the scribes. Mass literacy has
_destroyed_ the scribe occupation (think of their children!) but overall it
has been a benefit to mankind. I'm thinking the same with computers and
programming. Computers and programming have so transformed the world (much
like literacy and numeracy) that I have to think the same should be true of
computeracy (computer literacy).

And just like there are people who have an affinity for literacy (we call them
"writers") and numeracy ("mathematicians" or "accountants" depending upon the
math work), I think we're still working through what it means to be
computerate.

~~~
rubicon33
Seems to me like you've kinda cherry picked scribes. Among other reasons why
that doesn't really apply here, could be pointed out that scribes as a
profession evaporated HUNDREDS (thousands?) of years ago, so I hardly see the
direct analogy to modern life. There are plenty of examples that are more
relevant.

Take metal working. Or, coal mining. Post-industrial revolution during the
"boom" of the early 1900s, metal working was seen as the end-all of careers.
Everyone needed to "learn to work metal!". In fact, it was pushed so much as
the best career, that it became integrated into the educational system (shop).
It was believed that everyone needed to learn to work with metal.

What has that done for the industry? Honestly, can you look at the metal
working industry, or the coal industry, and tell me that they (or us?) are
better off because of it being integrated into our educational system. We
could probably argue all day about whether or not that was a smart move for
mankind, but one thing is for sure - all those people ended up with depressed
wages as two effects took hold - over supply of workers locally, and cheap
labor abroad.

Similarly, I think we can debate all day about whether or not everyone knowing
how to code is going to be a good thing. I don't think I have the same
perspective as you on that, but neither of us can really make a definitive
statement of fact. We can probably both agree however, that software faces the
same destiny as other professions which went through the very same life cycle.

------
tluyben2
Not anymore no. It used to be when I did it in the 80s and 90s. It grew up and
it is hell now (if I may believe my friends in the industry).

Edit; come to think about it: I made games a few years ago; educational games
for government, utilities, zoos and education for money, so a job and that was
still fun and really quite a dream job imho. But not big open world fps
ofcourse :) Nice 2d games which is like the most anyway.

Edit 2; what I liked about game dev in the 80s and 90s was the limitations of
the machines: you could lock yourself up in the basement for weeks, eat and
drink and dream optimizations while writing the most rancid (but in my eyes
genious) code and in the end ship it and never think about it again. I would
say it was far more of an intellectual challenge than (for most devs) now as
all was always from scratch; engines did not fit in memory or were just too
slow if they they did. Also; there was a clear end to deathmarches: after a
while nothing fits anymore and you cannot optimize it further so you ship or
just scrap it. Now you can continue forever marching, which must be hell.

~~~
Pfhreak
Heh, I wouldn't say grown up. The work environment I had in games was an hr
nightmare.

------
erik998
I think in general software developers can use something like SAG to enforce a
basic daily minimum rate.

[https://www.sagaftra.org/production-
center/contract/810/rate...](https://www.sagaftra.org/production-
center/contract/810/rate-sheet/document)

Daily rates for developers, dbas, qa's and such...

The same guild could make special rate sheets for different stages of a firm.
For example SAG has a daily rate sheet for indy films, a software dev guild
could have one for startups as well. This could at least prevent abusive
startups.

[https://www.sagindie.org/signatory/](https://www.sagindie.org/signatory/)

If you are a star developer equivalent to a celebrity actor, these would just
be the minimum rates. There is nothing preventing a studio from paying more.

If anything this would resolve the use of contract labor 1099
misclassifications. If you are good enough to get paid above 120k you could
have a loan out corporation and deduct more of your costs while still paying
union fees.

[https://abspayroll.com/loan-out-companies/](https://abspayroll.com/loan-out-
companies/)

[https://firemark.com/2015/01/12/should-you-have-a-loan-
out-c...](https://firemark.com/2015/01/12/should-you-have-a-loan-out-company-
for-your-work-in-entertainment/)

This wouldn't be a an factory type union. It would be something like a
professional union like SAG.

Read the rate sheets to get a better understanding.

------
ed312
Throughout my childhood I enjoyed playing and making games. I eventually
studied a mixture of CS and digital art in college in order to join the game
industry. It was a dream job to me in so many ways - I imagined an open,
friendly culture of people working together to create an immersive experience.
The reality: minimum wage entry level, planned for "crunch" time >3 months
long, constant fear of running out of "runway" (money), etc. All of this
culminated with the company simply stopping paying people for a month before
eventually shutting down. I tried one more game company (really just a fb/ios
thinly-veiled gambling app) before I quit the industry for good. That was
roughly 5 years ago - at this point I'm _just_ starting to re-kindle my love
for games and creativity.

------
GuB-42
For tech workers, I think that making video games is "not a dream job" is an
understatement. Except maybe for a select few.

That's what I wanted to do. A short look at what the reality looks like was
enough to make me run away really fast.

I suppose the industry manages to lure in new talent who don't know any
better, that's how they still manage to get people to work for them despite
the terrible conditions. They project an image of an industry that is young
(no shit, "old guys" jumped ship long ago) and fun to people who grew up
playing video games and want to see the other side.

That's not just the big studios. On the indie side, the good thing is that you
are not exploited, the bad thing is that it is even harder, with low chances
of success. The only team that I've seen personally and was somewhat
successful are the guys who made Crosscode (I highly recommend the game BTW),
and the process looked like hard and stressful work. The others ended up doing
gigs completely unrelated to game dev in order to eat.

------
rongenre
I left an engineering job at a finance startup in the mid 90's to take a
"dream job" at a video game startup. It was.. awful: all the fun and
creativity was being done by on the production/game design part, and the
engineering was... both demanding and boring at the same time.

It was weird realizing I was happier and feeling more creatively engaged when
I was figuring out how to price derivatives.

------
basseq
If you're into this topic, I highly suggest _How BioWare 's Anthem Went Wrong_
by Jason Schreier, published on _Kotaku_ this week. A deep insight into game
development culture, and one particular AAA game. It's a long read (11,000
words), but worth it.

[https://kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthem-went-
wrong-1833731964](https://kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthem-went-
wrong-1833731964)

------
leftyted
Making video games _is_ a dream job because lots of people want to make video
games. Amazing that some people choose jobs for reasons other than high
salary, job security, and low stress. Shocking that some people are actually
motivated by oh, I don't know, actual interest in an industry!

We can force employers to treat game devs differently via unionization or
laws. If people want to discuss these kinds of measures, that's fine. But
these people ought to recognize that these regulations will involve trade-
offs. If you think the trade-offs are worth it, cool, but please acknowledge
them.

My feeling is that highly skilled programmers who are incredibly in demand _in
every industry_ do not need unions or special legal protection. They have
_options_. Only by denying the existence of their free will can we pretend
that this is a serious problem.

------
commandertso
The comments here have a fair number of people baffled at why folks would stay
at jobs like this for any period of time. Here’s my thought based on working
in games for around a decade; I left after that, in part for quality of life
reasons.

For folks that want to work in games, there can be a strong feeling that it is
a quixotic quest; there aren’t a lot of jobs relative to the applicants,
you’re chasing a dream, and the big places of employment often made the games
that made you passionate about everything in the first place.

Once you get that first job, you’re taught that you are not only one of the
best, but that you’re lucky to be there. It’s easy to quickly bond with your
comrades around the shared, stressful experiences. And to internalize that
this is all ok because what quest doesn’t involve some pain?

My first game job was in 2002, and my long, slow falling out of love with the
industry started after shipping the first game I’d worked on. Once it had gone
gold, we all took a couple weeks at 40 hours a week. After that, I was told by
my boss that we all had to go back to 60 hour weeks. I asked why. The answer
was, “that’s how we work.”

That was when I started looking for a new job.

------
mrbill29
I got to say, reading the comments as someone who currently works in games, I
don't understand why people think there's such a divide. Game development at
this point is really not that different from other development. Do some
studios suck at management? Yes, do some do management well? Yes. Just like
other tech games has it's share of good and bad. Personally I don't work
overtime and haven't since my first game job. Some people do, sometimes it's
because they're covering for others work, sometimes it's because they want to
put something special in they can call their own.

Is games as an industry harder? Probably, games push current tech in every way
possible. Does it mean you'll have to work harder to accomplish your goals?
Also probably. But with games at least you're trying to do something no one
else is most of the time. And when it hits it's something you can be proud of.
Not everyone cares about that, but people in games often do.

------
makecheck
I resisted spending any time on game development for a long time because I
knew deep down how games are consumed extremely quickly. You can spend tons of
effort to build a utility app that might prove its value every day for years
and years, and may _never_ lose _all_ value. You can spend tons of time and
effort developing a game that may become boring to players in a matter of
weeks or months and _never be used again_.

Ultimately I decided that game development is useful for building certain
programming skills as a hobby, regardless of the “value curve” of the product.
And if you expect nothing (i.e. you’re competing in a huge field of millions
of games, nothing is special anymore), you can focus on what you’ve gained,
which may be primarily the experience.

I emphasize the hobby part; it’s useful to try it but it’s extremely backwards
economically. I would always advise “other” programming jobs, with game dev.
on the side.

~~~
hutzlibu
"because I knew deep down how games are consumed extremely quickly"

Those are called "casual games".

Most gamers will have games with (much) over 1000 h played .. I would not call
that "consumed quickly"

------
makerescape
Game development draws a more artistic developer, I think, and artists are
somewhat accustomed to having to give up money and security for doing what
they love. Have you ever seen a successful union for musicians? And unions
sometimes suck all the creativity and great making out of an industry—-think
Detroit in the 70s. I personally would like to see more of the industry spread
out across startups, with more employees participating in the stock packages
that can potentially create truly life-altering one-time payments in the 6 and
7 figures. But the working conditions are very hard. I’ve accepted that,
however, as the price I must pay to focus on what I love to do and get paid
well for it.

------
midnightclubbed
Jason has done great work exposing the dysfunctional and exploitative parts of
the game industry.

However I am not so sure the issues are unique to games; bad management,
product re-designs/pivots, underpaid support staff, investors with deadlines
and expectations of ROI.

------
ctdonath
For a while I taught introductory programming to bright-eyed prospective game
creators. The analogy I would use up front: _driving_ a car is very different
from _building_ one; just because you liked playing games doesn't mean you'll
like creating games - whatever part of "development" you're involved in.

Of the hundreds I taught, I'm only aware of one who went on to "making video
games" \- and yes it was his dream job, he's willing to put in the insane
effort & hours to make it happen, and he was duly rewarded. Killing Floor 2
FTW :-)

------
mips_avatar
I feel like the video gaming industry is kind of like working for SpaceX. You
dream as a kid of working on rockets, so you will take an incredibly difficult
job for less money and perks than google. But it’s worth it if you love
rockets.

------
0815test
Good thing that the NYTimes is finally raising awareness about this issue.
There are so many alternative sectors that these highly-skilled workers could
pivot to, not just the developers/coders but other roles as well, e.g.
graphicians, 3D artists, UX designers etc. The pay and conditions in the rest
of the industry are so much better, there's really no comparison.

------
brucemoose
This seems all too often the case with development work in general. I see the
same type of unreasonable expectations in devops.

Maybe it's compounded by the software industry liking to hire young people
with less experience but more free time. They may not yet have the soft skills
to navigate unreasonable demands and give hard answers, and logistically a
single person can more easily pull extra hours.

I've found that as I get older it has become easier to push back on unpaid
overtime type work (or simply not do it). Because it would be damaging to my
family and relationships if I didn't, and that's a powerful motivator for me.

But at the same time it's hard to compete with the output of people who
somehow can grind all day every day, and through the weekend. I don't know if
there's a way to level the playing field as long as employers are allowing and
even encouraging this kind of unpaid self sacrifice.

~~~
klohto
This is objectively wrong. DevOps continues to be the best paying field to
work in. This is also accommodated by the fact that employers do not hire
inexperienced people to DevOps because you probably don’t want them screwing
up the whole release pipeline. Look up latest SO survey results and you’ll see
that DevOps is very nicely paid even across Europe.

~~~
brucemoose
Oh... But I wasn't talking about salary, and Junior DevOps is most definitely
a thing.

------
bigtex
In high school, (mid 90's) I desired to be a video game developer, because I
thought hey I like to play video games so maybe that should be my career! That
all changed when I read the Next Generation (greatest gaming mag of all time)
issue on working in the gaming industry. After reading about conjugal visits
on the office floor because husbands would be stuck at the office for weeks
trying to the game finished, that was enough for me. As someone who wanted to
get married and have a family this turned me off of going into the gaming
industry and led we towards more a much more family friendly career.

As for unionization, I don't think it will help. I have a good career, great
salary, working from home 4 days a week and only commute 1 day but can come in
after rush hour. I don't see companies being able to provide benefits like
that if unions are involved.

~~~
mrits
Unions seem to try to solve a problem to make sure everyone is treated fairly
but they really just make sure everyone gets the same thing. If everyone gets
the same thing I lose my motivation. It might be a character flaw but I know
I'm not alone. I suppose it might not make a big difference in some industries
but in the ones I've been involved in the few difference makers on a team kept
us in business.

------
madrox
I’ve never worked on games professionally, but I work in games media and have
been able to watch this industry change up close. Video game development is
really a different beast than the rest of development. They branched in the
80s the way apes and chimps did genetically. They don’t follow the same tech
trends that the rest of the industry follows. I doubt a majority of game devs
even know about HN. They socialize with different people. All it takes to
appreciate this is to remember how caught off guard the whole industry was by
mobile gaming being a thing.

I’m not convinced supply/demand is really the reason why the games industry is
the way it is. I compare it to the non-games tech industry and see the
conversations, communities, and struggles they’ve had and the games industry
is only starting to, and wonder if there is a connection.

------
Glyptodon
I don't really understand why unions are the answer to what should be basic
and universal ethical labor standards.

Because, what, if you aren't in a union or unionized job you don't deserve to
get treated decently? Because industries where unions and workers have less
leverage should be able to treat workers worse? Or is the union thing just a
reaction to lack of faith in other institutions?

I don't hate unions, but I don't get them either. And I often suspect that
structurally they're much more incentivized to containerize reforms rather
than universalize them.

------
Fire-Dragon-DoL
I figured it out just in time. I wanted to be a game developer just to realize
that compared to normal software dev, you are underpaid and with worse work
conditions (and very little to say on game design). And coding practices tend
to be worse. My spinoff was to be jusy a software developer and it turned out
so much better (at that point I also figured out that my passion was software
development, not game development)

------
DaveSapien
Uncertainty is the killer. There are many studios that are a dream to work
for, make no mistake about it. The worst studios and the best studios, always
require you (mostly on the software side) to at some point, work for free.
Work unpaid hours to meet a deadline. Which would be ok, if there was some
kind of profit share, there however is NOT that kind of compensation. What
there is, is an uncertainty that you will have a job tomorrow. You could wake
up with no job and zero return in your investment of your many hours of free
time. It is though for employers, no doubt, but running a games studio as a
standard business leaves a trail of disenfranchised people in its wake. A
better approach, if possible, is to run a project as an individual business,
each worker with some kind of performance compensation and responsibility for
the product...imo

------
winterismute
For the interested Italian speakers out there, we have a recurrent podcast
happening at www.gameloop.it and we had an episode right after the Blizzard
layoffs to which both a Technical Director at Activision (Canada) and a
researcher in the field of Industrial Relations (who worked on an EU report of
unionization in the creative industry) participated, the discussion that
sparked was very interesting in my opinion, here is the episoda page:
[https://gameloop.it/2019/02/26/gameloop-podcast-
gl22a-activi...](https://gameloop.it/2019/02/26/gameloop-podcast-
gl22a-activision-licenziamenti-e-lavoro/) (Italian only :( )

------
SonnyWortzik
Based on the recent article by Jason Schreier (Kotaku) about the complete
disaster of Anthem game development, it puts into light the mismanagement and
the exploitation of these developers to churn out games as if it were a
factory floor with little time and pressured to deliver.

These developers are talented but you can only do so much with that talent
when you have no time to demonstrate that talent and are being asked very
unreasonable demands to deliver. Only to deliver a half baked product and
asking their customers to dish-out $60+ to be a "beta" tester for a company
racking up billions.

This unionization is a must. This exploitation has to stop.

------
praptak
The market discounts the coolness factor of being in the game industry, so you
effectively pay for being a game developer by crappy work conditions.

Regarding the unionizing unions, I don't think I can express this better than
RMS: _" All in all, I think it is a mistake to defend people’s rights with one
hand tied behind our backs, using nothing except the individual option to say
no to a deal. We should use democracy to organize and together impose limits
on what the rich can do to the rest of us. That’s what democracy was invented
for!"_

He was talking about human rights but this argument applies as well to work
conditions.

------
hellllllllooo
I'd love to understand how many people who frequent hacker news have actual
experience with a union directly beyond what the have read? The anti union
rethoric is strong in the US and it seems like a lot of comments start with
the position that unions are bad and go from there without really
understanding what they do or thinking through what things good unions can do
well.

Companies have spent a lot of time and money spreading this message so it's
not suprising but it seems like a default position of many tech workers I've
met in the Bay Area while they also grumble about many aspects of their job.

------
disease
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that making video games for a corporation
is not a dream job? I've entered 8 game jams and generally enjoyed the
experience. It sucks when you can't complete your game but when I did it felt
like I landed on Mars! I'd love to make games professionally put as is made
clear in the article and comments, 'passion jobs' tend to suck.

------
LostInTheWoods2
This turned out to be an article about tech workers unionizing ... which I
just don't see that as a solution in the tech industry in general, especially
when companies have the choice to offshore their staffs. At the end of the
day, we developers are well compensated, and have great mobility. If you find
yourself getting a raw deal, just pickup your keyboard and go somewhere else.

------
PorterDuff
To what extent is the video game industry crunch culture driven by non-
negotiable deadlines? (trade shows, Christmas, movie releases)

------
azhenley
It is a dream job if I’m my own boss.

~~~
beatgammit
Exactly.

My dream scenario is to be in a situation like Tarn Adams, who works on a game
he loves and lives off donations. Ideally, by that point I'd have enough to
sustain myself without donations so that source of stress is gone.

I don't want to work in the AAA game industry, I want to work for myself in
the indie game industry on a project that both I and my supporters love.

~~~
slamberth
Unfortunately, that situation caught up with Tarn recently. They've had to
change their whole model due to rising health care costs and are now hoping
for actual sales to keep them afloat.

I think that just shows how all of the factors in the article (work
conditions, health care, "crunch") are intertwined. People are torn between
doing what they love and doing what pays well so they can stay afloat.

~~~
fragsworth
The silver lining is he's probably going to be rich as hell after it launches
on Steam.

------
z3phyr
These problems could go away if games are considered an extension of software
industry instead of the grey area of art/media.

Also, the barrier to entry into games is very low. This leads to mass
influction of less than capable people, who still wrongly dream of making
games.

------
ngngngng
I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for someone that follows a career path
in which supply is higher than demand, and then they whine when they have to
deal with the economic impact of supply being higher than demand.

~~~
madsushi
Supply and demand aren’t perfectly measurable values.

Supply and demand change all the time, and can even shift while you’re in
school, or over the 40+ expected years of most careers.

Telling someone to pick a career where demand > supply forever is impossible
because if you believe in the market, supply will rise to meet demand.

------
LoSboccacc
* being hired ruins everything

as with every other craft, doing it on your terms is quite different and
between kickstarters and the others there's plenty opportunities for the
enterprising developers.

------
4RealFreedom
I don't know if this would work or could work but what about capping salaries?
Something along the lines of you can only make 2X of the average from the
bottom 50% employees.

------
alexnewman
"Making X Is Not a Dream Job" -> It's almost as if you are building something
cool and exciting then some people find that as an additional reward as well.

------
el_cujo
The video game industry has the same problem a lot of creative jobs have: the
work force is large. Companies can afford to treat employees like shit because
there are so many fresh grads who want to be game devs lined up to take the
place of anyone who complains. Compare that to writers/graphic designers who
are often undercut by their peers who are willing to work "for exposure".
Hopefully unionizing helps these guys out, but I think as long as there is
such a big pool of people willing to suffer to have a shot in the industry,
it's going to be an uphill battle.

------
otikik
Becoming a gamedev was my childhood dream.

After I finished my CS degree I saw how horrible their lives were. And I noped
and moved on to web dev.

A good life. No regrets.

------
darepublic
Even when doing something you love if you have to do it at the command of
someone else it can be misery inducing.

------
fearai
Literally playing video games is now a dream job and people are still
complaining smh

------
lovetocode
Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime.
They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired
of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that
they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically
about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go
piss up a rope with the weekly job offers we get.

Edit: grammar

~~~
maxehmookau
>They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions.

YES! You're absolutely right!

> They don’t need to unionize.

Err... Why on earth not? That would literally be the definition of growing a
spine and saying no to ridiculous work conditions but also having it be
effective.

~~~
lovetocode
I probably jumped the gun on the unionization part. I don’t know a lot about
it but my impression of unions is not so bright. Maybe my ignorance is showing
with that regard

~~~
maxehmookau
My knowledge of unions is based entirely on the UK. They allow groups of
employees who are subject to poor conditions to group together and participate
in collective bargaining. Most programmers in the UK are not a member of a
union as pay is fairly high and conditions relatively good, but the majority
of public-sector and a lot of private-sector workers are. Unionising would be
an excellent first step for employees fighting back.

I see a lot of anti-union talk on HN, I don't think a lot of the criticism of
unions I see here is fair.

~~~
hnarn
> I see a lot of anti-union talk on HN

That's because most people on HN are from the U.S. where a century of
propaganda has convinced most people not only that poor people are lazy, but
by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated
by organized crime. While this propaganda has a _minority_ basis in reality in
some cases, as all propaganda will have because propaganda can't be 100%
fantasy and make-believe, it's an ignorant basis to take when discussing broad
and general questions like unions as a concept.

If you ask someone from Spain or Germany about unions and attempt to explain
why they're "evil" from the US perspective, I can guarantee you will be met
with complete disbelief. Most people in Europe may not actively be a part of a
union, but they normally recognize them as beneficial entities in the labor
market, and as something that will help balance the scales against employers
of normally vastly larger influence, both politically and economically.

~~~
magduf
>but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations
infiltrated by organized crime.

That's because, in the US, it's all true, historically. Auto unions were a big
reason why Detroit's automakers were so uncompetitive against the Japanese
automakers in the 80s; autoworkers got ridiculous pay for menial work, which
is why Detroit moved a lot of their production to Mexico and Canada, and other
automakers moved to Southern states where unions didn't exist.

The simple fact is that unions in the US in the latter half of the 20th
century and beyond were nothing like unions in Germany, where by almost all
accounts they seem to work out extremely well.

>Most people in Europe may not actively be a part of a union, but they
normally recognize them as beneficial entities in the labor market

Yes, in Europe that's true. In America, it just hasn't been the case. It's
just like public transit: in Germany, trains and subways are fantastic:
they're inexpensive, clean, and efficient; whereas in America, they're an
utter disaster: dirty, expensive, constant maintenance problems, and just a
miserable experience. Try riding the subway in Munich, and then riding the
subway in NYC or DC; there's just no comparison. The problem isn't that
subways are bad, it's that subways in America are bad. Same goes for unions.

~~~
justin66
We've had singularly successful industries like Hollywood rely on unions as
well - SAG, WGA, IATSE, etc. Their work bears a lot more similarity to
software development than the auto industry does, so hopefully that is food
for thought.

It's fair enough to say that American auto unions (and very importantly, auto
company management and ownership) would do well to model themselves after
Germany's system. It's not a universal truth that all our unions are
ineffective.

~~~
magduf
>It's fair enough to say that American auto unions (and very importantly, auto
company management and ownership) would do well to model themselves after
Germany's system.

You could say that about _many_ different things: if we just did it like the
Germans, everything would be better, right? But how exactly do you actually do
that? We're not Germany. You could go to Zimbabwe or El Salvador and tell them
the same thing ("just be like the Germans or Japanese and you won't have all
these social problems!"), but that isn't realistic; if it was that easy, every
country would be copying the Germans and Japanese.

As for a universal truth, I haven't seen any evidence yet that unions in
America actually work well. In Germany, yes, but this isn't Germany.

------
jngreenlee
Grandma's Boy made it look pretty cool :P

------
hexagonsun
i've worked as a developer for 2 different gaming companies. it is most
definitely not a dream job.

------
bubblewrap
They are not being exploited. They are free to take on another job. Especially
coders could certainly find jobs in other industries.

And "Fortnite" is not the games industry. There are a variety of ways to make
a living making games.

~~~
NaNtales
Of course you can stop being exploited as a game developer by leaving the
games industry---but why should people be forced to change their career in
order to avoid exploitation?

~~~
Tiktaalik
It is also worth noting that many of the skills in the games industry are
_highly_ specialized to the games industry.

Games is kind of like a 'galapagos island' to its own. Most games developers
won't know any language other than C++, won't know anything about the web,
won't know anything about databases, etc....

~~~
crazy1van
C++ is consistently one of the most popular programming languages [0].

Large-project, high-performance C++ programming that a game developer likely
possesses is probably one of the most broadly portable programming skills a
person could have.

[0] [https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-
index/cplusplus/](https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/cplusplus/)

------
nukeop
Making videogames is a great hobby though. One of the traditional appeals of
writing roguelikes is that you can spend minimal effort on graphics and
related cruft and boilerplate, and jump straight into implementing any fun
mechanic you can think off. If you like the idea of creating games, do
something less stressful as a day job, and make games as a hobby. A single
person can release a game made as a hobby. This way you have full control, no
stress, and don't need to take financial risks.

------
Creationer
These conditions don't seem to be very different from many other American
businesses. Unpaid overtime, minimal notification during layoffs.

Video games get a lot of attention because they are the ultimate consumer
product. Workers being treated similarly at a glass factory or an accounting
form wouldn't make the news.

Unionisation isn't going to solve fundamentally poor corporate performance or
mismanagement. Ultimately people need to be willing to walk away from bad
jobs.

The best thing that has actually happened recently for game developers is the
creation of the Epic store on PC - giving 88% of revenue to developers,
instead of the 70% of many others stores. Its odd so many people seem to
oppose that store on one hand, and support unionisation on the other.

------
papermill
I thought everyone knew this already. And its been true for decades. When I
was a CS major, everyone told me not to go into game development because you
worked the most for the least amount of pay.

Not sure why why this is so high up here. I'd think that the HN community
would already know this by now. If not, there are plenty of game developer
testimony all over social media and the internet.

------
Kiro
This is not at all reflected among the actual workers in the different game
development groups I'm in. People post polls about unionization all the time
and "yes" never ever wins, not even close.

