
The Death of Couchsurfing? - peterburkimsher
https://medium.com/@jameshopest/the-death-of-couchsurfing-a87d9537edf2
======
owenversteeg
So I imagine there's a lot of people here that don't know Couchsurfing or what
the big deal is. Couchsurfing has been one of the most important things in my
life, so I'll do my best to explain why it's so special.

The basic idea is you stay at a stranger's place, or you host a stranger at
yours - completely for free, no money involved. Everyone does it differently.
Some people plan their trip meticulously months in advance and give arrival
times to the minute, while others send a message at 9pm the same night asking
if you're free. Some people ask to stay one night, some three, some far more;
some bring bags of delicious food and artwork of their culture and some bring
nothing.

I mostly host, and I've had all of the above - and then some. You have an
incredibly diverse group of people. I've met artists, musicians, dancers -
everyone from a Syrian man who lived under ISIS for years to an evangelical
Christian woman who wanted to try shrooms.

The beautiful thing is that it's anything you want it to be. People have
profiles that are often filled out with a good amount of detail (I usually
skip the skimpy profiles) so you can pick out whoever or whatever you want.
You want a pastry chef? You want a violinist? You want an architect? You want
someone tidy and on-time or a hitchhiking hippie? Simply search for one to
host or stay with.

The friendships and relationships I've made through Couchsurfing have been
some of the best and most interesting I could have asked for. And the best
part - you can do it all from home, traveling the world from the comfort of
your couch.

Anyway, that's the beauty of it. I really hope that the network of people can
be saved. Long term, I think it can, with something like BeWelcome, but of
course it's a network effect problem - no hosts=no guests.

If anyone is curious about Couchsurfing (or wants to couchsurf my boat in the
Netherlands - seriously, anyone is welcome, please come!) then feel free to
send me an email (it's in my profile.)

~~~
mnky9800n
Every woman I've met on couch surfing has been a victim of some kind of sexual
harassment or violence due to someone they meet on couchsurfing. Basically
they stay with a guy and he has expectations and is vocal if not forceful
about it. Women would be surprised that I had a bed just for them, didn't
expect them to sleep with me, didn't ask them for sex, etc. I hosted for two
years living in Berlin.

That being said I also had some amazing experiences through couchsurfing.

~~~
owenversteeg
Wow! I've hosted a good bit and that's completely different from my
experience.

> Women would be surprised that I had a bed just for them

It sounds like you were taking a lot of the desperate people on the site that
aren't mostly in it for the cultural exchange but to save $5. Because here's
the thing - everyone's profile has a section detailing what kind of room/bed
the Couchsurfer will get. A "shared bed" is a red flag the size of Russia.

That's the other thing: I like to read the CS profiles of the guys accused of
being creepy. 95% of the time, it's VERY obvious who they are. Guys will have
"sex" in their interests, only have a shared tiny bed, or pictures of them
shirtless, or 100% references from young women, etc., etc. That's the beauty
of Couchsurfing - if you see a profile that you're not 100% confident in, then
just move on; there are fifteen million people.

The real problem on Couchsurfing stems from people not reading each others'
profiles. People get greedy, see a way to save on hotels, then send out copy-
paste message spam that's not unique to your profile. I only host people who
send me a message personalized to my profile, and even then that's after a lot
of reading their profile, references, etc. I simply ignore the copy-pasted
messages - if you don't care who you end up with, then you're not Couchsurfing
for the interesting experience, you're doing it to save a few bucks.

If you don't read profiles and carefully select, then you're basically rolling
the dice. This is the #1 cause of bad Couchsurfing experiences.

TL;DR: if you choose a host without reading, Couchsurfing just becomes Omegle
IRL.

(If you're a woman reading this and want to Couchsurf 100% safely, you can do
things like only surf families, other women, places where you'll get your own
room, etc etc.)

~~~
Mediterraneo10
Couchsurfing was founded after Casey Fenton had a plane ticket to Iceland but
no money for a hotel. So, he spammed the University of Reykjavik's e-mail
directory asking to stay on someone's couch. Aiming to save money on
accommodation has ALWAYS been a thing on CS. Yes, it is great when cultural
exchange and friendship arise on top of the exchange of free accommodation,
but it doesn't happen with every guest or with every host.

Also, as a 2005 signup, I can attest that copy/paste requests have always been
a thing. In fact, initially they were the norm. Back when travelers used
internet cafes and were paying for every minute, it was understandable that
they needed to send out a wave of requests quickly without being able to
personalize them. Even now, I prefer copy/paste as a host because I can
sympathize with travelers and don’t want them to jump through silly hoops.

~~~
owenversteeg
Yeah, I know how the site started :) But Couchsurfing is a lot different from
the CS of nearly two decades ago. It's several orders of magnitude bigger, and
it's got many, many travelers who never host, only surf, with an ungrateful
attitude who see you as a free hotel. I saw downthread you said you switched
to other platforms (which is great, they need to grow!) but they are a lot
different from 2020 Couchsurfing, where I get a constant flood of messages and
regularly get messages from people essentially demanding a free hotel and
food, occasionally for the most ridiculous of reasons (like that they're here
for a conference and want to pocket the reimbursement.)

And I have no problem with people that want to save money, but if that's the -
only - thing they're using CS for, with no interest in ever talking to me,
then I'm just not going to host them.

It's admirable to take in anyone, but it's pretty rare. The vast majority of
hosts I know (and have surfed) will only take people in who have read their
profiles.

Like I mentioned, there's a safety component to this (for men as well!) but
also a practical side - many people live a good bit outside the city they're
listed in, some people go to bed early or late, some people play music all
night, some people are nudists, some people have a shorter sleeping spot
(couch/bed/etc)... If you don't read profiles you're just rolling the dice -
even if you just want a free bed!

By the way, I think I'll try to be more active on BW/Trustroots (hosting
mostly.) Any advice for how to get my profile seen? On CS I get absolutely
flooded with messages (and often get great, well written messages) - on BW and
Trustroots I've gotten nothing.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
Again, as a member for many years, I constantly heard year after year "CS is
different than it used to be. There are so many freeloaders now!" But when I
signed up in 2005, two of the demographics sending me requests were academics
coming to town for a conference, or e.g. guys whose girlfriend kicked them out
and they needed a place to crash. I didn't see this change significantly in
the years before I bailed in 2016, and I always found it easy to ignore them
and host backpackers.

Really, for me the negative change in CS over the years was the explosion in
hosts who were sedentary. If you don't do shoestring travel as a lifestyle
yourself, you won't be able to sympathize with your potential guest's needs.
For a site that, in Europe, spread initially through the hitchhiking
community, I was appalled to see so many CS hosts by 2008 who looked down on
free travel, and threw around words like "freeloader".

I also can't agree with people complaining about guests who need their hosts
to feed them. If they are ordinary backpackers who just budgeted poorly, that
is one thing, but if they are intentionally trying to live on no money, that
is another thing entirely. Among the freespirited alternative traveler
community who founded CS, there have always been people traveling by
providence, and they have been among my best and most memorable guests. Their
stories and positive attitudes far outpaid the pasta and salad I made for
them.

Finally, you can't assume that guests who write a non-copy/paste request
actually read your profile. Sure, they may have quickly scanned your profile
for things they can mention in a request, but that doesn't mean they care
about the details. For years I could only offer a mattress on the floor and
clearly said so in my profile, and yet so many of the guests who wrote
ostensibly personalized requests either didn't catch that, or when they
accepted my invitation and arrived at my home they complained about it. Again,
writers of copy/paste are just as likely to be appreciative or not.

As for getting requests on BW or Trustroots, either live in a place where many
travelers want to go to, or become a superhost whose house is open to all
travelers and word of the good vibe there attracts people to your region even
if initially they don't know what to do there. Those are your only options,
really. However, this looks to be the biggest wave of CS refugees ever, so you
may start getting more requests regardless.

------
MattGaiser
>If community powered websites like Reddit can survive

Reddit is backed by venture capital and shifted heavily to be more advertiser
friendly.

~~~
peterburkimsher
I don't know how Hacker News manages to stay so pure, given that it's run by
venture capitalists, yet still remains free of ads and open to newcomers.
Monetising CS is like demanding a signup fee to join HN: it will drastically
change the community.

~~~
MattGaiser
Hacker News is smaller than most major subreddits in terms of usage. 400
upvotes is considered a lot here. The site is extremely simple and something
that could be replicated in a couple of days at most by most engineers. It
doesn't process money or really require a lot of content moderation either.

~~~
freddie_mercury
That is all true but the real answer is that it is run as a charity project by
billionaires. So it doesn't need to be monetized.

~~~
bcassedy
Ehh there's a really pro ycombinator slant and ever notice how any yc
announcement, hiring notice, or article quickly hits the top? They're getting
a lot of value out of that stuff that helps with the VC side of things.

~~~
MattGaiser
Who would hate on YCombinator?

~~~
ashtonkem
There are some legitimate arguments about how VC backed startups have behaved
as of late, and YC is part of that overall system.

I’m not sure where I personally sit, but I think it’s a bit silly to pretend
that YC is universally beloved or beyond reproach.

~~~
solveit
Sure, but the criticisms mostly don't apply to companies in the seed stage. YC
is somewhat removed from the mainstream critiques of startups mostly by
sitting at the part of the process where startups are most startup-like,
ironically enough.

~~~
ashtonkem
You’re not wrong, but we’re talking about different things. _Culturally_ YC is
more associated with startup culture, even if their direct involvement ends
after the seed stage.

------
PopeDotNinja
Couchsurfing, I love you, but y'all have a horrible business model.

Between 2017 & 2019, I hosted about Couchsurfers. I initially paid to verify
my identity, and I paid a few dollars per quarter (I forget how much) to
maintain my membership. Then I needed to change my credit card. There was
literally no option to change my credit card. In order to change my credit
card, I had to let me credit card expire. Wat.

In there recent email about running out of money, they were looking for people
to spend $2.49 USD/month or $14.99 USD/year. I was like "hey, I can finally
support them!" So I clicked on the link, and because I already have a verified
membership, there was still no option to pay. I contacted support asking how I
could pay, and instead of giving me a way to send them cash, they gave me
ANOTHER FREE YEAR of verified membership. Wat.

Maybe start a Patreon? It'd be hard to screw that one up.

~~~
PopeDotNinja
Was supposed to say "hosted about 50 couch surfers".

------
cmehdy
Couchsurfing was fantastic in its early days, then came the era of using
websites for just-a-little-bit-too-much-dating, then they went .com and tried
to be "cool" with redesigns, eventually drowning the simplicity of their
concept a little bit too much. That $25 yearly fee slapped onto everything,
with no chance to even connect with previous contacts, is disappointing to say
the least. No doubt that the meaning of "couchsurfing" will far outlast the
website, especially now.

~~~
starpilot
There are creepy amounts of guys who only host young, attractive women. It
used to be more like hosting anyone - young, old, any gender, and sharing
travel tales.

~~~
yakshaving_jgt
This has been my vicarious experience. The friends of mine who were young,
attractive women who tried Couchsurfing all ended up with creepy stories along
the lines of "Oh yeah I stayed with this guy, and then — funny story — it
turns out he only has one bed! Ho ho ho…"

------
kpennell
CS generated billions in social capital but that can be hard to monetize. I
wish they had solicited donations sooner and not raised that 10M round.

They could have started a Patreon or buy me coffee-esque donation model
several years ago and people would have been down to help sustain them.

It seems that mid 2000s internet knew how to use CS without being creepy but
more and more of the 2010s internet just didn't. There were so many
allegations of harassment and women not feeling comfortable. One woman
traveler I met said if she even logged in in India, she would get 6-7 invites
from men to stay with her. Seems like this 'travelers near you' feature maybe
had some downsides.

It's also just hard to stay relevant with the rise of facebook, airbnb, and
reddit. It's a bummer they didn't stay more focused. Gosh, I would have loved
to work for them back when I lived near the mission, but it sounds like it
would have been incredibly frustrating.

------
tdeck
This really reminds me of how podcasts have gone. It used to be that nine out
of ten podcasts I listened to had no ads - they were about spreading a message
or having fun, or getting some personal recognition. They didn't have major
overhead because it's cheap to come on once every week or two and chat with
your buddies. Now, not only are there many high-quality professional podcasts,
but the old fashioned ones I enjoy have all one by one gotten in on the game.
Eventually podcasting became something you either made money at or you were
doing it wrong (see also: blogs). When even BackStory and The Skeptics Guide
to the Universe are shilling for Blue Apron that transition is complete.

~~~
alexashka
If you're looking for people who are still having silly fun, have a look at
Twitch and the folks over at 'just chatting' or I think there's a section
specifically for programming? Those channels very much have that informal
vibe.

Regarding making money or doing it wrong - says who? The barrier to entry for
podcasting has never been lower. It's all in people's heads :)

------
roadbeats
Couchsurfing was the website that allowed dozens of young people from
developing countries to do world trips. Imagine being in your early twenties
surrounded by limitations; no money, no job but a bright & open mind who wants
to see the world, despite all the travel restrictions. Couchsurfing was the
magic of internet that helped young & bright but not rich young people. Some
investors bought it and killed it.

------
m4lvin
In related news, [https://www.warmshowers.org/](https://www.warmshowers.org/)
(a couchsurfing, but only for cyclists) also changed "business model" this
month. However, they will not charge existing active users and only ask new
sign-ups for 30 USD once for lifetime access.

[https://www.warmshowers.org/sites/default/files/files/inline...](https://www.warmshowers.org/sites/default/files/files/inline/Announcement_English.pdf)

~~~
justnotworthit
Did they do a "host only" free signup?

I left couchsurfing (which i used mostly for hosting) to warmshowers where
I've hosted a dozen or two guests over the last few years. I've never traveled
on a bike and don't have any plans to. The guests are great, since bike
touring is a filter for a certain kind of person.

I don't know I would have signed up if it were $30 (though it has obviously
been worth it).

One of my "things to do when im rich" daydreams was to visit my favorite
guests/host from CS in a world tour. Most I didn't exchange numbers or emails
with, but having their good reviews on my profile was a monument of what the
kind of person I wanted to be. If it's true I can't message them now, I
should've got rich sooner.

------
projektfu
There seems to be a lot of anger in my local community. Probably 10:1 angry
vs. supportive. It's sad because this is the end of the sharing economy that
got overrun by the gig economy. I'm not sure the network will move to another
site, and there's a lot of friction to redraw all the lines of connection and
reviews.

------
peterwwillis
Couchsurfing is like a master class in how to destroy community engagement in
your business/project.

So, back before the ubiquity of 2 or 3 social media sites, CouchSurfing was a
quirky place to meet travelers and let them crash on your couch. One of the
things that made it work was profile reviews and couch requests. The second
thing was the community forums.

The profile reviews and couch requests acted as a quality filter. Bad reviews
lead to much lower community engagement. An interesting profile and good
reviews, combined with community instruction on how to compose a good request,
leads to acceptance of couch requests. The system works as long as the
community polices itself, teaches its values to new members, and encourages
good behavior.

The community forums were a huge part of facilitating all that. Profiles would
often include instructions on how to behave, but the forums filled the gaps by
adding social pressure to enforce standard conventions. They also ensured
there was constant user engagement and content, which we know from modern
social media sites is imperative for a vibrant community.

All of that got flushed down the drain when Couchsurfing reorganized and
annihilated their old site. All the community engagement fled to private
Facebook groups. That caused profile quality to crash, and the result is anti-
community behavior, like how the majority of single men on the platform now
host only single women, which besides being sketch as hell, just makes it
harder to find a reliable host.

After I literally flew across the country just to have lunch with the
Couchsurfing team and discuss the community problems I'd collected, I got the
impression that they were not going to change. My concerns were mostly
considered bug reports, and the problems that drove the community away were
never addressed. Years later, it looks like no work has been done at all.

I was grandfathered in as an older user so I never even realized they started
charged you to send more than a certain number of couch requests. But why
would any new user seriously commit to a community _now_? It can probably
still be a place to meet amazing people, but you can also just meet amazing
people anywhere you go in the world, without Couchsurfing.

The saddest part of all of this is that now there won't be an amazing platform
to show people how insanely generous humans are all over the world. Hopefully
BeWelcome or another site can pick up the mantle and restore the old ways, so
we can go back to showing more people the inherent goodness of strangers -
when those strangers are tied together via community and purpose.

------
teruakohatu
Couch surfing is not dead. In the adventure motorcycling community, there are
this concept "tent spaces". It is like crowd surfing but instead of a couch,
you get access to a toilet and space to pitch a tent.

[https://advrider.com/f/threads/tent-space-
map-v2.1215147/](https://advrider.com/f/threads/tent-space-map-v2.1215147/)

~~~
Ayesh
Warm Showers is also pretty good. It's mostly Europe focused cycling
community, where you meet amazing cyclists with a decent garage and a night
full of stories.

------
JSavageOne
More reason to move towards a free and open source decentralized web.
Otherwise a beautiful community over a decade in the making can be obliterated
by the flick of a switch of a couple money-hungry idiots wearing suits.

~~~
Polylactic_acid
I feel like the biggest money drain for any community website is not server or
development fees, its moderation and community management. You cant just stick
up a php app on a vps and let it run forever for $3/month. You have to hire
people to remove spam and to read user reports to remove rapists and creeps
from the platform.

~~~
blaser-waffle
Hell just plain ole support. I got locked out of my Couchsurfing account twice
and getting in was a pain.

I also dispute the "get a VPS and ship it" for 3/month -- there are a lot of
images on Couchsurfing, and a userbase that's non-trivial in terms of size.

------
gmargari
So sad to see this aggressive shift. I have made many good friends from
Couchsurfing, and I was paying the annually fee both to support the site and
to be "Verified by CouchSurfing". Even though on March they received my
annually payment, today after reading this article I tried to login to CS
after some months, only to find out I had to pay _again_ to even access my
profile. I could not see my photos, references, messages, nothing.

I'm really disappointed and sad, and I guess I'm also switching to BeWelcome.

~~~
abyssin
Have a look at Trustroots, the management of the project is quite different
and doesn't put the same emphasis on formal democratic processes as BeWelcome
does, but it makes for a community that's closer to what seems to me the
authentic couchsurfing spirit. All of these hospex networks brought me a lot
anyway.

~~~
nicksellen
I'm one of the Trustroots contributors, you're right about the governance
topic, we have a do-ocracy approach right now (described a bit at the bottom
of
[https://www.trustroots.org/faq/foundation](https://www.trustroots.org/faq/foundation)).
I'm actually keen to evolve this, with a more specific approach to community-
governance, but this thinking and these talks take time.

~~~
abyssin
I'm perfectly happy with the current style of governance. It seems like it
works, while BeWelcome is still struggling with endless babbling.

------
JayPeaEm
I've had nothing but amazing experiences with CouchSurfing.

New Years Party in Budapest;

A haunted house trip in Philadelphia turned into being a pretend boyfriend for
a girl in Ürümqi and a week later flying to Maldives with her best friend;

Playing ice hockey with the President of Finland;

Having a fling with a famous Japanese MMA Fighter;

I even started my website www.uncivil.engineer because of it; sad to see.

------
dannyw
Why does couchsurfing.com need to be a $22.5m venture backed business?

Not everything needs to be the next WeWork.

------
willio58
An alternative will rise eventually. Couch surfing is all about experiences,
friendships, and not thinking about money. Any person creating the alternative
will have to understand and accept that.

~~~
peterburkimsher
BeWelcome is open-source, has been around for a decade already, and has
excellent financial transparency. Their fundraising target for this year is
1300€.

I've already contacted their developer to ask if I can help create a data
import tool so people can easily transfer their C$ profiles.

It's heartbreaking to see such a wonderful community be divided like this.
There are no "rich" and "poor" countries, only ones with more inequality.
Ideally I wish that the HQ would change their mind, but my support is now
behind BeWelcome as the alternative.

We must work together and stay united as a community. Travel will continue,
despite government lockdowns. Contact tracing is much easier with hospex sites
like BeWelcome than with 11 strangers in a hostel room. Economic troubles will
lead people to cheaper alternatives. Even if C$ has been ruined by venture
capitalists, giving freely and paying it forward will live on elsewhere.

In case this message reaches the C$ investors in Silicon Valley, I don't hate
you personally, and I wish that internal reform is possible so that we don't
all have to flee to a new platform. But the new change, brought without
consultation, is contrary to the principles that CS was founded on. CS is not
Airbnb, nor is it a dating site, nor is it exclusive. Selling personal data
and private messages didn't bother me too much - Facebook does the same. But
trying to charge a monthly subscription from people who don't even have stable
countries, never mind bank accounts, is totally ignorant. Change your mind,
quickly, because the community is already one foot out of the door.

~~~
h0l0cube
I'm not sure if it's still the case, but I think CS was forced into a 'for-
profit' designation for practical reasons:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9633122](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9633122)

... and it doesn't really represent the operation. At the end of the day,
moderation and support for membership is needed, particularly for keeping
predators out of the system, mechanisms for people who might have fallen prey
to them. It is something that requires time and effort. Such operations need
guaranteed vigilance on these issues, and aren't easily sustained by the whims
of volunteer involvement.

It might be that many established members are okay with taking risks. I
remember one host I stayed with that talked about hitch-hiking on trucks
around Europe to save money, but also how she got drugged once and her money
stolen and dumped in the middle of an autobahn, and then another time how she
'talked herself out of' being raped. This sort of risk might be okay for the
seasoned couchsurfer, but this might not sit well for newcomers who don't know
who they are staying with.

Not sure if the situation has changed with CS, and they've become profit-
oriented, but it does take some money, from somewhere, to keep things to
modern standards. Personally, I would prefer that CS was sustained by those
who can afford to by donations, rather than subscription. And I may actually
look to bewelcome, or hospitality club if that's still around. (I also used
another called 'Trustroots', not sure if that still has a community.)

Edit: To that individual with the privilege to down-vote, could you please
correct me where I'm wrong with an actual comment?

~~~
peterburkimsher
Trustroots is being discussed as an alternative, but it doesn't have a
reference system. I trust the reference system to keep the platform clear from
the safety issues you describe. That's why I think BeWelcome is the best
alternative to recommend right now.

Servers cost money, and BeWelcome are transparent about that. Having
developers to code the site and moderate the forum would be expensive if paid
by the hour, but there are willing volunteers. Asking for donations is
acceptable, a paywall demanding a subscription is not.

Please come over to the BeWelcome forums; I'd like to discuss the
possibilities of starting new meetups, and selling merch (t-shirts, hoodies,
stickers) to improve the BeWelcome brand so it can bring together the
community, lest we scatter. Any financial donation like that should be
discussed democratically though, so that's why your input is needed.

(I didn't downvote, I think your comment is fair)

~~~
h0l0cube
> Trustroots is being discussed as an alternative, but it doesn't have a
> reference system

I logged in just earlier to have a look, and I see that people do have
feedback. I'm not sure if there's anything like 'vouching' that CS used to
have.

> Having developers to code the site and moderate the forum would be expensive
> if paid by the hour, but there are willing volunteers.

I have been to a festival in Australia (the predecessor to burning man) that
is completely volunteer run. It's interesting to be a part of operations and
see it work, and fail to some extent, and in meat-space the 'look after each
other philosophy' can work when everybody is can watch each other.

I'm not sure how that could translate to a platform that has private
messaging. I believe CS had a mechanism where communications could be
inspected if a complaint was raised.

> Asking for donations is acceptable, a paywall demanding a subscription is
> not.

I think you're right about this. The people who I enjoyed the most with CS
would probably find this offensive, so I'd be more likely to participate in a
platform that was donation-based.

My only hesitation is that I lose all my references.

> so that's why your input is needed.

I'll make an effort.

~~~
bigiain
> I have been to a festival in Australia (the predecessor to burning man) that
> is completely volunteer run. It's interesting to be a part of operations and
> see it work, and fail to some extent, and in meat-space the 'look after each
> other philosophy' can work when everybody is can watch each other.

I'm curious about that (being an Australian and a Burner).

Which festival? (if you're OK sharing. My email in my profile works if you're
OK sharing but not as widely as publishing it here...)

~~~
h0l0cube
Surely you've heard of ConFest? Still going strong since the 70s. Started by
Jim Cairns (the then ex-deputy to the ex-prime minister Gough Whitlam). The
name is a portmanteau of 'conference festival'.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ConFest](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ConFest)

~~~
h0l0cube
> I just hadn't ever heard it referred to as "the predecessor to burning man".

But that it is :) It was a direct inspiration for burning man, and also
another long running festival in Europe (the name escapes me).

> (And I've never been, Easter is BluesFest time for me...)

Are you talking about the one in Denniliquin that often coincides with
ConFest? It's a very short drive away, and I recall bumping into a few curious
folks making a detour after BluesFest.

~~~
bigiain
Nah, Bluesfest in Byron Bay...

------
Lapland
Man that's a bad way to do it, and it makes me really sad. Couchsurfing has
been awesome but this is probably good for the community long-term since the
motives of a large part of the users and CS where wildly misaligned after
becoming a for-profit corp. With the nail in the coffin hopefully this will
lead to a migration to some platform run by the community itself. Trustroots
seems like the best existing option right now for future development.

~~~
peterburkimsher
Trustroots has a nice map-based interface, but lacks references and meetups.
BeWelcome is my preferred option, and is open-source and has excellent
financial transparency.

~~~
nicksellen
I'm one of the developers working on Trustroots.

We're working on references :) I merged this PR yesterday
[https://github.com/Trustroots/trustroots/pull/1413](https://github.com/Trustroots/trustroots/pull/1413),
there is a bit more to work out for displaying them...

There is also a meetup feature already (see
[https://ideas.trustroots.org/2017/08/21/meeting-people-
now-o...](https://ideas.trustroots.org/2017/08/21/meeting-people-now-on-
trustroots/)), it's a bit primitive right now, but it was a first iteration,
and we've been discussing some next steps recently.

We are also open source!
[https://github.com/trustroots/](https://github.com/trustroots/) (with a node
+ react stack)

~~~
peterburkimsher
It's possible to export my data from CS. Would the Trustroots community be
willing to have a CS data import option, for bringing in old CS references and
friends?

~~~
nicksellen
You're welcome to join our team chat and we can discuss further (send me an
email, address in profile, then I can invite you).

(most relevant, but dated, PR is
[https://github.com/Trustroots/trustroots/pull/1086](https://github.com/Trustroots/trustroots/pull/1086))

(I also saw your comments on
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23219900](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23219900))

------
spiritplumber
I ended up with two meth heads who sort of moved in and would not leave, they
even tried to get me arrested for trespassing in my own home, supposedly on
grounds of they were US citizens and I was not. Fortunately the cop that
showed up spoke Italian and we sorted it out. It was weird. On the other hand,
I have made three lifelong friends thanks to hospitality, so the balance is
positive.

------
Ayesh
It's about €2 a month, and I subscribed yesterday. It didn't occur to me until
they prompted that CS must be doing pretty bad during the pandemic. I still
open for Hangouts (I'm "stranded" in Vietnam where things are open back now),
and the CS as a platform was fantastic to meet new people.

I think the €2 price is only for those who live in relatively richer
countries. Here in Vietnam, my friends were not asked to pay, it's just me
because my address was set to the Netherlands.

They even support PayPal payments, which I believe take ~€0.30 for the
payment.

~~~
dvcrn
This is interesting, so it's based on address? I am also a Hangouts user and
never did actual 'couchsurfing' so seeing it disappear esp. in countries like
Vietnam or Thailand is a sad thought. Still, having this paywall slapped on
for the majority of users means that a lot of 'casual users' like me who open
the app occassionally will fall away, which then means far less people
available on Hangouts.

Maybe someone else will step in and build a Hangout clone? Their app is a
massive battery hog full of bugs, and I dread opening it every time I get a
new message.

~~~
Ayesh
I think Couch Surfing (the activity) + hangouts work well because you can see
how "cool" a person is based on their travel history.

------
aclimatt
Like the article says and as applies to almost all failed startups / products,
it can all be traced back to bad management.

I've been a heavy CS user for over a decade, I've been to events at their (now
defunct I suppose) office in SF, I met their CEO at the time (one of many) and
even did a walk around the block chatting strategy with their VP of Product at
the time.

After building lifelong relationships through the platform, and comparing my
experience as a user with management's side of the story, it was clear to me
that they had very little understanding of their userbase.

Couchsurfers are broke. By definition. Meeting people is a huge value add, and
the longer you stay on the platform, the more you gravitate toward the
"community spirit" and less "saving money" side of things. But you are kidding
yourself if you think that first time CS users are on the platform for any
other reason than squeezing a few more days out of a thin backpacking budget.

Not only are they broke, but even the community often has an anti-money ethos.
Just look at the outrage (as the article points out) when they switched to a B
corporation. And it makes sense -- taking an inherently capitalist product
(lodging) and building a community to make it free creates a very specific
narrative.

Therefore, the expectation that CS users, especially first-time, will pay even
a dollar on the service is DOA. They need to make money (exactly how much is
up for debate), but this isn't the way to do it.

But that doesn't mean there aren't any other choices! CS Event sponsorships,
cross-product integration (language learning, travel deals FFS), other
corporate sponsorships, a more Airbnb-like private experience (maybe the
community would hate that too, who knows), partnerships with local tourism
authorities, discounted tour / event packages... None of these were even close
to tried.

I'm not at all advocating that Couchsurfing should have become Tripadvisor,
but to barely even consider a few alternatives to nickel and diming a bunch of
broke backpackers just shows that CS was on its way out long before
COVID-19...

~~~
jeromegv
It’s also possible that if the premise of your product is being free for broke
people, there’s just no path to profitability or even subsistance. You always
anger your base, whatever you do. And then your platform becomes irrelevant as
it fails to adapt due to... lack of money.

~~~
peterburkimsher
I joined CS when I was broke, and such a site must stay free for newcomers.

Music can be obtained for free (whether recorded onto a cassette tape off MTV
or downloaded). Despite that, I go out of my way to support my favourite
bands. Sometimes quite literally flying to other countries to go to concerts.
Now I have the money, I want to support those who showed kindness in the past
by paying it forward.

BeWelcome's financial transparency is excellent, and I would happily buy a
t-shirt from them, and I'm discussing with organisers of CS weekly meetups
whether they'd be willing to rebrand to BW. If CS wants to save their
platform, they can and should, but must act quickly.

------
vvpan
An aside: Why does Medium add a login wall to some articles? Creating an
account on a website to read somebody's blog post to me sounds... excessive.

~~~
DanielleMolloy
We’ve been considering moving our labs‘ blog there (because less maintenance,
higher visibility in tech academic communities) and have been wondering about
this too. Can someone comment? Are they aiming towards raising a login wall
for the whole platform?

~~~
gnicholas
You can make all your articles free/unpaywalled if you want. But then if a
publication wants to add your article, they can’t. Only paywalled articles can
be added to publications.

------
CSvibeMax
I love CS! I have made tons of best friends, both male and female from around
the world. I hosted a lot (max of upto 20 ppl one night in Mysore India!) and
surfed a bit on my travels and best is when you get hosted by your ex
surfers!! Monetizing couch surfing and providing the option of Joining via
Facebook screwed up couch surfing according to me- the philosophy was lost.
Earlier it was about travel, culture/ lifestyle experiencing platform, and had
a word-of-mouth/kind of exclusive feel to it - you'd meet genuine people who
took the effort to research online and find this forum. It was more genuine
and with no expectations. I was very private about couch surfing, never posted
stuff about it on my normal social media sites and never wanted to be famous
for it. Soon after the Facebook link and those paid for profiles (green tick
mark!! Ughh) all sorts of people ended up joining CS. In many countries, ppl
are not aware of sensibilities and especially in a country like India, where
women are stared at (even by my own friends! ) I had to keep a low profile. It
was so so so hard to patiently educate friends, neighbours and family about
basic concepts of travel, backpacking, alternative lifestyles.... Once
Facebook got included, people found out and it became like a platform for
users to brag about the girl they hosted and show off!! Yuck... BTW, I am an
Indian guy telling you about hosting all the chillest open minded ppl in a
small indian town! So trust me, it got BAD once non genuine ppl found out
about CS! It's become commercial, about getting laid, and mostly all the cool
vibe ppl are harder to filter through among the zillions of morons. It's
become harder to connect now. I hope couch surfing survives, maybe make some
whole sale changes.

Stay safe everyone. Have a good time! ~*~

------
CSvibeMax
I love CS! I have made tons of best friends, both male and female from around
the world. I hosted a lot (max of upto 20 ppl one night in Mysore India!) and
surfed a bit on my travels and best is when you get hosted by your ex
surfers!! Monetizing couch surfing and providing the option of Joining via
Facebook screwed up couch surfing according to me- the philosophy was lost.
Earlier it was about travel, culture/ lifestyle experiencing platform, and had
a word-of-mouth/kind of exclusive feel to it - you'd meet genuine people who
took the effort to research online and find this forum. It was more genuine
and with no expectations. I was very private about couch surfing, never posted
stuff about it on my normal social media sites and never wanted to be famous
for it. Soon after the Facebook link and those paid for profiles (green tick
mark!! Ughh) all sorts of people ended up joining CS. In many countries, ppl
are not aware of sensibilities and especially in a country like India, where
women are stared at (even by my own friends! ) I had to keep a low profile. It
was so so so hard to patiently educate friends, neighbours and family about
basic concepts of travel, backpacking, alternative lifestyles.... Once
Facebook got included, people found out and it became like a platform for
users to brag about the girl they hosted and show off!! Yuck... BTW, I am an
Indian guy telling you about hosting all the chillest open minded ppl in a
small indian town! So trust me, it got BAD once non genuine ppl found out
about CS! It's become commercial, about getting laid, and mostly all the cool
vibe ppl are harder to filter through among the zillions of morons. It's
become harder to connect now. I hope couch surfing survives, maybe make some
whole sale changes.

------
kragen
[https://archive.fo/6xEPW](https://archive.fo/6xEPW)

The article makes this sound super shitty. What happens if you were traveling
on May 14th in a country where you don't have cellphone service, trusting that
you're going to use CouchSurfing to message your hosts to arrange to meet up
when you arrive, and now you can't contact them any more? Either it's cough up
the US$15 (assuming you even have a means of payment CouchSurfing accepts — I
don't think they do M-PESA) or you're sleeping on the side of the road where
your hitchhiking ride dropped you off. And US$15 is a fucking lot of money in
some places.

I've hosted a bunch of people via Couchsurfing and also been hosted. Another
alternative I've used is hospitalityclub.org, which seems to still be up. The
article and other comments here mention BeWelcome, but I haven't tried it.

While I agree with comments that it shouldn't require hundreds of millions of
dollars a year to run the site, and that we need to move community services
like this onto decentralized systems, I think things like the Beaker Browser
are not yet widespread enough. Communities like CouchSurfing where lots of
people meet up in person and try new things might be the most fertile soil for
something like that.

------
VWWHFSfQ
Bro.. you gotta pay $15 a year. That's $1.25/month.

I would like to see you make a website like Couchsurfing that can operate for
free forever.

Just pay the $buck 25 and keep using the site and go on with your life. This
is not a Capitalist Conspiracy to rob you of your hard-earned $dollars

~~~
inimino
/s?

I almost wonder if you've ever met anyone in need. This brand of smug
entitlement preceeds revolutions ...bro.

~~~
trianglem
Nope, stop right now. Anyone in America can come up with $25 of disposable
income a year.

~~~
vincnetas
There is a world outside USA also ;)

And you don't need money to travel.

~~~
welly
You don't need money to travel beyond your front door/neighbourhood but come
on, you need "some" money to travel. You can't travel without a penny in your
pocket.

~~~
madskdc
You can do pretty well with next to nothing. I spent three months hitchhiking
and couchsurfing my way through the US and Canada, covering roughly 20,000
miles and staying with dozens of hosts. I started with $700 in my account, and
still had a few hundred left by the end of the trip. Had I wanted to be more
frugal, and not get 'local food' when someone suggested something especially
good, I probably could have gotten by with less.

So it's true that you need something....but you can do it with little enough
that $25 can be a significant part of your budget.

------
machiaweliczny
My friends traveled half of the world thanks to CS. In developing counties
it's usually richest people that host, so it's sometimes better than hotel,
but often just tent in backyard (I think when no "hosts" in area)

------
enriquto
...and do not forget about Pasporta Servo, which is a clear predecessor. The
"pitch" for Couchsurfing may as well be "like Pasporta Servo, but without
Esperanto".

~~~
elrostelperien
Exactly! To explain Pasporta Servo to a friend (when I was "preaching" about
Esperanto), I said the opposite: "It's Couchsurfing, but within the Esperanto
community" – and also mentioned it being older than CS.

------
Chris2048
For hosts that provide their guests with a bed: Are bed-bugs a concern?

I can imagine bad hosting varied travellers who themselves may be sleeping in
many different beds would be terrible for it.

~~~
at_a_remove
This was literally the answer I expected when I saw the title.

------
ZeWaren
I'm very saddened by the news.

To me couchsurfing was not only about hosting people to my place (which I hope
I can continue doing after the pandemic) but also about their events.

The weeks I couldn't or didn't feel like hosting strangers to my place, I
could still meet random foreigners in bars or outside.

My city had 3 weekly events in addition to random theme events, from board
game nights and sport activities to cooking classes.

------
netjiro
I've had great experiences from couchsurfing. Hosting, surfing, and events.
I've met several close friends through couchsurfing.

I've heard about the negative experiences people have had, but never from
direct source, always someone heard about someone. I have no clue about the
actual numbers.

The community died off with the mismanagement, but also shrunk from the rise
of airbnb and meetup.

------
oytis
Wonder how they survived for such a long time. I used to use it when I was a
young adult with no family and little money, and stopped using it once I was
not young any more, and had something to pay. My impression of my guests and
hosts was that they were about the same kind of people as I was, so I'm not
sure where they could ever get money from.

------
technick
I used to host couch surfers in Denver. Everyone I met was amazing. Had a
couple from Jamaica stay a few days and taught me how to cook jerk chicken.
Then I hosted a group of 5 from Australia which put me up when I visited them.
I hope something replaces this site.

~~~
abyssin
There's already alternatives, and they've been there for a while. The first
treason to the community came from Casy Fenton who sold Couchsurfing some 10
years ago, even though he'd benefited from the volunteer work of many skilled
members. That triggered the creation of BeWelcome. Some years later, BeWelcome
was perceived as suffering from different issues that were preventing it from
growing to its potential, and Trustroots was founded as well. Trustroots is a
promising project.

------
matthewfelgate
Couchsurfing died a long time ago. It used to be a good website until I guess
it got sold.

------
LoSboccacc
I understand the need for monetization since it's a large community and
running it will have some costs but it's weird they couldn't partner with some
travel equipment goods firms and be done with it.

------
soufron
How could it be dead? Contrary to airbnb couchsurfing is not a company, it's a
concept. And it has no running costs. People will just pause and get back to
it later on.

~~~
distances
Did you read the article?

------
ipnon
Would it be impossible to federate a homestay social network like
Couchsurfing?

~~~
h0l0cube
TIL, on another thread, that Trustroots is actually open source. I used it
once 5 years ago, and I think it has a lot of potential.

------
purple_ferret
Didn't it basically turn into a hookup app at some point?

~~~
Markoff
it can be whatever you want it to be

i agree this become more common over the years, bit it's anyway easily
avoidable through references or just by checking up sexuality, after all
statistics are on your side, if you host person of same gender you are
unlikely going into hook up

~~~
Polylactic_acid
And even if one person is after the same gender, they wont just assume the
other is without asking.

------
billme
Couchsurfing die at some point long ago. I forget exactly what happened, but
globally all their volunteers per city left.

------
gumby
Would Covid-19 have put an end to the travels of Paul Erdős? That would have
been a tragedy.

------
husky_voice
Can't read story about Couchsurfing paywall as the article is behind paywall
;)

~~~
Markoff
Well folks, in these changed times it seems that the last artefacts of the old
world have been firmly cemented in history, as Couchsurfing International Inc.
decides to unilaterally charge its members, eroding away the last remnants of
community spirit and hammering the final nail in the capitalist coffin it
built for itself.

The fact Couchsurfing didn’t warn or consult the community it hosts that the
company was switching to a paid service, effective immediately as of 14th May
2020, only underlines the already poor track record of the management. Just in
case you weren’t sure how mainstream the service went, they’ve gone and
removed all doubt.

In order to simply message old friends through the site, people who you warmly
welcomed into your home, who kindly hosted you in a strange foreign land — or
who perhaps changed your life — you must now pay a subscription fee. Users
have essentially had their accounts frozen unless they pay the fee
immediately.

The bosses of Couchsurfing know how much these old connections mean to some
members, so in one final hustle have blocked messaging and even referencing,
forcing those who have no other communication links to sign up for at least a
month to speak to their friends, and hoping for a little bonus before the
gentrified party is over for good.

It also means those that use the site only for hosting, in other words, offer
their homes to others for free, have to pay the fee too.

This should kick out the remaining ethically-minded members. Leaving only
noobs and those that want to save money when travelling to run the whole show.
To be fair, $15 a year is not a lot to ask. But the way they asked shows
everybody exactly where Couchsurfing stands.

~~~
Markoff
Couchsurfing admits on its own blog that 4% of its users have contributed to
the platform before the recent announcement. Considering that at time of
writing it has well over 15 million users, at 4% that’s at least $15 million
dollars alone if everyone paid the verification fee only once (based on the
only feasible way to contribute — the $25 verification fee per year). The
management has probably worked out, while they sip lattes over Zoom, that even
if there is a mass exodus and those without any principles at all remain, they
will still miraculously break even.

In contrast, BeWelcome, a similar but much less popular platform, covered
their finances with less than $10,000. BeWelcome is also completely
transparent about their finances. Everyone who has used Couchsurfing knows
that policy has slowly — although not imperceptibly — changed over the years.
The sole aim since it changed from .org to .com has been to increase its
membership and with that the hope that its members will pay to be verified
under the controversial pretext that this makes the community safer. As a
host, I can say this “safer” mantra is nonsense. It’s the references I care
about. It’s what the community, not the bank, say about you that I care about.

Of course, Couchsurfing will never die for good. Its apparition will live on
in the memories of original users, their profiles as tombstones representing
an age — however brief — where three great things: the internet, travel and
the human spirit combined to create an enviable community accessible to anyone
with an internet connection. Considering the incredible stories, the global
relationships and shared interests of locals, there is little doubt that
Couchsurfing changed the world. Just how many people turned a new era in their
lives through a friendship which can be traced back to Couchsurfing? For a
while it flew in the face of the monetisation of simple travel, even as a for-
profit company it triumphed as the lefty nemesis of Airbnb and the boutique
hostel craze which swept the world; now rearranging its company structure to
join them, having long replaced the wording of its most fundamental function
from “community” to “profit”. Over the last years, the true community still
struggled on, creating events and meet-ups and ignoring the new requests from
creepy men with empty profiles, while in the background $22.6 million was
quietly being squandered to turn Couchsurfing into the next trendy startup
venture.

Many community organisations (wikipedia.org for example) which respect their
user-base — indeed realise they are their user-base — have resorted to
reaching out to their members in search of aid when times got tough, financial
or otherwise. Even some newspapers, dammit, score morally higher by asking for
donations rather than ransoms.

Despite the recent drama, it’s already clear from Couchsurfing’s Privacy
Policy that other money making outlets besides the ones they mention do exist:

“We may engage a third party data provider who may collect web log data from
you or place or recognize a unique cookie on your browser” “We may also share
aggregated or de-identified information, which cannot reasonably be used to
identify you.”

They may not admit directly selling your data. But Couchsurfing allows other
companies to collect it in exchange for advertising space, which is paid for.
The key words here are “engage”, and “reasonably”, which means if you are a
large company and have the means to to re-identify data, then ta-da! — those
trackers which monitor clicks and people you interact with, many who are now
linked to profiles on Facebook, combine to make a neat little profile for you,
and the travel-themed adverts stack up higher than the empty iPhone boxes at
the Couchsurfing headquarters, which is now closed from Covid19, by the way.

But that probably didn’t work out for them, which is why they are now
allegedly scrapping the advertising plan. Returning instead in true business-
means-business style to the community, which after being neglected for years,
they have suddenly realised they depend on. And may also realise no longer
exists.

But how can it be so bad? As of May 2020, it is one of the top 10,000 websites
by Alexa rank, putting it in the top 0.001% of websites in the world —
absolutely no mean feat. And certainly not in a position to be losing money.
If Couchsurfing couldn’t make it work with that amount of traffic, and with
multiple multi-million dollar investments, while simultaneously ignoring its
community and deleting its oldest and most valued members, it deserves to die.
Nobody asked for all the fancy graphics and apps they made for us. People that
are willing to sleep on a stranger’s mattress can live with a few, em, bugs.
If community powered websites like Reddit can survive, Couchsurfing could have
survived too.

Everyone that has used the site, even until very recently, will be grateful
that it existed; its simple empowerment of people allowed everyone to get more
of the best thing about it: the people we meet. If anything, it remains as a
bleak lesson on the poisonous nature of replacing strength of community with
financial capital. Now it’s time to shift away from what is essentially a
company run by faceless people whose sole community is those in Silicon
Valley; the only question remaining is, where do we go?

------
lx0741
no wonder why their app sucks.. free is never great. imagine if amazon or
google never changed their business models, they would've never become the
useful things they are today, would they? if you pay, you get a better
service, period.

~~~
Dumblydorr
Do you though? Maybe there are users who only want the free product, to them
couchsurfing for a fee is a worse model.

------
29athrowaway
Coachsurfing explained:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOUobuGaY7U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOUobuGaY7U)

------
montychain
Never heard of Couchsurfing and I'm quite shocked this idea was able to
captivate a considerable amount of people. It all seems terrible to me. Invite
a bunch of strangers to hang out in your house? What a terrible idea! Sure,
not all people are morons or psychos but there are such people out there. And
only one is all it takes to end or completely ruin your life. Risk a life to
be able to hear a bunch of bullshit what some idiot has to say is totally not
worth it imo. If you want to talk to an idiot - you can find plenty of them on
Facebook or Twitter. At least it's safe. And for the real life communications
just hang out with your family, classmates, coworkers or even neighbors. There
are a thousand people that you know and have some sort of relation to. If you
wanna date - use tinder or something. Be careful out there, if not for
yourself but for those, who love you and care for you!

