

Machine VM + Cloud API - Rewriting The Cloud From Scratch - losvedir
http://highscalability.com/blog/2010/10/21/machine-vm-cloud-api-rewriting-the-cloud-from-scratch.html

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gruseom
Given that there have been a few sprouts of Forth talk on HN lately, it's
worth mentioning that an application-specific OS (written in an application-
specific language) running on bare metal is sort of the quintessential Forth
idea. Running it in the cloud, on virtual bare metal, would of course be Forth
heresy, but still worth trying.

~~~
mahmud
FWIW, every innovation in PL research coming out in the last 40 years can be
considered anti-Forth, including binary security, strong-typing, platform
independent code, modules, streams, exception handling and what have you.

I just went through Ertl's dissertation for the third time in as many years,
and my impression is that Forth stands somewhere _beside_ formal theories of
programming languages, not within. His dissertation provides 3 implementations
of forth, just as Dybvig provides 3 for scheme. The two papers are nearly
identical in scope; showing different implementation techniques for a tiny
kernel language. However, the Forth paper is entirely in C and assembly,
without the slightest hint of formal semantics or any other mathematical
reasoning. It's a hack upon glorious hack. You can't reason about Forth code
without FULL abstract execution, to wit, implementing a full Forth VM with
side-effects, or emitting 3-address-code, or some other linear tuple IR, and
using traditional techniques from register-based languages with variable
assignment.

Having said that, I can see why Forth might be fun, as a soul-cleansing
language for a programmer who has spent too long in abstraction. Haskellers
should use it to bring themselves down a notch [ _grumble, mumble mumble,
something rude, under my breath_ ]

[Edit:

Oh fuck, I forgot about Factor!

I pre-accept defeat, and retract my possibly under-informed arguments if and
when Slava shows up to this discussion :-)

If his opinion differs, I don't think I am qualified to disagree with the
sharpest dude hacking on a language implementation today, and Forth domain
expert to boot]

------
gmcquillan
This is an interesting concept. However, I think this article needs to define
its target audience better. It seems to be speaking specifically to people
doing web hosting (which you may or may not argue includes all of LAMP use-
cases).

The idea that we can forgo operating systems because there are APIs to call
doesn't make sense if your company heavily invests in infrastructure.
Sometimes you need low-level access to hardware to fine-tune performance and
scalability because your use-case is not the general use-case, even in a
"cloud" environment.

------
wmf
Previous discussion: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1762210>

------
mahmud
LtU discussion:

<http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4095>

------
jacques_chester
I posted a related thesis here a while ago:
[http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/10/shared-hosting-is-
doomed...](http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/07/10/shared-hosting-is-doomed-and-i-
have-the-graphs-to-prove-it/)

That the complexity of shared hosting would make it uneconomic vs VPSes in the
long run.

------
jhrobert
Would be cool if it were javascript (it's OCaml), with nodejs I guess...

~~~
mahmud
The fact that it's not an everyday "job language" should really entice your
inner "programming pervert"; hard to explain, but there is something erotic
about seeing fringe languages in industrial applications. I would happily
setup a SAP cluster if it had, say, a Forth repl hidden in one About box. I
wasted countless hours in Excel, which I abhor, after it was mentioned in some
numeric computing paper. And is there a better opportunity, on a boring
weekend, than an oopsing Unix box with nothing critical on it :-)

Don't hesitate to delight yourself, no one will do it for you.

