
USCIS Reaches 2014 H-1B Cap - tidykiwi
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=c91dea8c9eadd310VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=68439c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD
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PeterisP
A big complaint seen about H1B process is that it's used to import cheap
workers instead of great workers - i.e., not increasing USA quality, but
allowing employers to decrease average wages by replacing supposedly expensive
locals with cheaper H1Bs.

There can be a simple solution - instead of measuring requirements for "highly
qualified workers" by forced advertisements where companies try to get no
'qualified' people to apply, and having an "adequate" salary with the current
principle "average of the same job in US", which can be manipulated and
abused, why not just set simple absolute criteria?

Make sure that H1B positions need to have a salary minimum of, say, $100k (or
some fixed multiple of USA median salary to be future-proof). That immediately
ensures that (a) H1B's are used for all professions where high skills are
needed, without a need to enumerate them in laws; and (b) H1B's are used to
import skills instead of cheap labor, as for less-skilled jobs it would be
cheaper to hire locally.

~~~
pslam
> A big complaint seen about H1B process is that it's used to import cheap
> workers instead of great workers - i.e., not increasing USA quality, but
> allowing employers to decrease average wages.

It is illegal to do that. As part of the H1B process, an employer must
demonstrate that a temporary H1B worker will be paid the prevailing wage,
using the hiring record of others in the same job role. It is extremely
expensive to go through the H1B process and certainly not worth it to get
"cheap labor". If there's abuse like this, it's certainly not from the big
employers, because it would never pass audit and it simply isn't cost
effective.

~~~
joonix
The biggest H1B employers are large IT consulting companies that do a round-
robin of cheap Indian IT workers to work in the US and then go back home. The
prevailing wage requirement is not grounded in reality. If it were, why would
you bring IT consultants from India rather than hire domestically?

~~~
tosseraccount
Oh my! You are right: <http://www.businessweek.com/table/08/0305_h1b.htm>
(business week) shows that the H-1B is used mostly by Indian Outsourcing
companies. It's the "outsourcing visa".

If companies want to outsource there is little capital controls preventing
them. There doesn't need to be these "inexepensive labor" U.S. government
provided subsidies for big companies in the form of guest workers.

I'd recommend vaccinations for expatriate managers and not more "outsourcing
visas".

------
tosseraccount
If there's such a shortage, then how come wages are stagnant?

Norm Matloff ( <http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html> ) points out that "The
H-1B work visa is fundamentally about cheap, de facto indentured labor."

Cringely points out ( [http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-
know-...](http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know-
about-h-1b-visas-could-hurt-us-all/) ) that "H-1B visas are about journeyman
techies and nothing else."

The evidence that the wealthy need more guest workers is just not compelling.

We need on the job training and good wages.

~~~
beedogs
Just goes to show, multinationals don't really care about the well-being of
the citizens of countries they do business in.

~~~
alexandros
Define 'care' when a corporation is involved.

------
arenaninja
I'm not an expert on the subject, but I distinctly remember Oracle's CEO
complaining about H1B visas for our graduation speech. It was a stale speech,
particularly when their company never even sent a Rep to our school's career
fair. It took me months (7) to get a web dev position as a physics major,
often because I was perceived as a weaker candidate. My git projects were
never even looked at and I was once told to my face that the company doesn't
hire physics majors for developer positions. Now, two months on the job, I've
fixed runaway JavaScript code that ruined UX on various pages, decreased
memory overhead by at least 50% as a starting point and extended a large open
source project so it does more for us. These are just the projects out of my
own initiative. In the meantime my physics friends are largely unemployed (all
but two, me being one of those two) and no company wants any training at all.
So forgive me if I'm all out of sympathy for these companies, even if I feel
for the global workers affected, but I've seen first-hand the dehumanizing
dismissiveness that you are treated with as an entry level dev

~~~
jlarocco
Your story doesn't back up the claims you're making.

To be honest, I'm surprised you got any developer position at all with a
physics major. If you wanted to do web development, why did you get a physics
degree? It's like saying "I want to be a doctor" and then getting a law
degree. College _is_ training, and you trained to be an entry level physicist.
There are plenty of recent CS grads looking for jobs, and their major is at
least somewhat related to the job they're applying for.

Yeah, it sucks you had a hard time, but it's not surprising, and it's hard to
feel bad for you given the choices you made.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Our company is staffing up a full IT department right now. We don't even look
at the education section.

Oh? You went to school for 4 years for CS? Good for you. Show me what you've
built/what you've done. Anyone can get a degree; doers build.

~~~
jlarocco
I'm not saying there aren't companies who do that. But you must realize your
company is an exception, right? The majority of companies use a CS degree to
filter candidates.

The OP made things more difficult for himself, so it makes little sense to
complain about how difficult of a time he had. He could have made it 10x
easier by switching majors to CS.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Why switch majors? Drop the education part, build something, show it to
companies looking, profit.

Degrees are overrated.

~~~
jlarocco
I think you missed my point.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Probably. It happens. Apologies for not connecting on the thought.

------
cletus
Wow, I had no idea the H1B system reverted to a lottery at some point. I
thought it was just a first-come first-served system. That just... sucks.

Just a note for those of you who are looking for foreign workers or if you're
an Australian citizen: you can get an E3 visa (2 years, multiple entry,
renewable ad infinitum). There is a cap for these too but AFAIK it's never
been hit (in the 5+ year history). The E3 has two advantages over the H1B:

\- there is no need to "prove" you can't find a domestic worker for your
position; the only step required is the same LCA step H1B applications must
do; and

\- unlike on an H1B, spouses of those on an E3 visa are permitted to work
(they get an E3D visa).

Also, you don't need to return to your country of origin (being Australia).
You can do apply from Canada, the UK or wherever is most convenient (but you
do need to leave the country to apply; you can't adjust status while in the
US).

~~~
joonix
> (but you do need to leave the country to apply; you can't adjust status
> while in the US).

That's actually not true[1]. You can change status to an E-3 from within the
US by filing Form I-129.

[1] <http://1.usa.gov/boasGi>

~~~
axk
Only if you don't intend to leave the country at all. Once you cross the
border, even if it's a short weekend trip, you would have to apply for a new
E-3 visa again.

~~~
pacaro
This.

This can be a big deal. I changed from L1B to L1A to H1B (without leaving the
country) then when I wanted to leave the country the legal advice that I
received (IANAL - TIJAA[1]) was that to be safe I should return to my home
country to get the new visa stamp, the Vancouver embassy might legitimately
decide not to apply it - at which point I'd be stuck in Canada needing a plane
ticket to the UK in a hurry and have the possibility of a multi-week wait for
an appointment at the London embassy...

I waited on my green-card application to get to the point at which I could get
an Advanced Parole[2] document and traveled on that instead, but this did
mean: a) several years in which I couldn't travel outside the US; b) repeated
lectures from border officials that the AP document was for "serious travel"
only and that snowboarding trips to Whistler didn't count.

YMMV

[1] This Is Just An Anecdote [2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_parole>

------
jdross
It's insane.

I have a coworker who is an unbelievably talented and respected developer both
at my company and in the open source community. He has been working on a
student visa after he graduated from an Ivy League school in computer science
last year.

That the U.S. is even _considering_ deporting him is batshit crazy to me.

~~~
acgourley
It is insane. Despite getting in by April 1st we're now waiting on the lottery
results to see if our first engineering hire can stay in the country. It's
going to be extremely disruptive both to him and to us if he can't stay.
Stupid.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Is the distance between him and your team really going to be that disruptive
if he/she needed to work from another country?

Seriously people; this is Hacker News. We build things on The Internet. Since
when is distance an acceptable excuse of a limitation for team members?

~~~
khuey
You'd be surprised by the number of technology companies big and small that
can't wrap their heads around remote workers.

------
WildUtah
It's long past time to put these up for bid instead of lottery. Companies that
really need talent and will pay fairly for it are being held up by cheap CRUD
labor sweatshop employers that file mountains of applications. If we met the
serious needs first, measured reasonably well by willingness to pay, there
would be more than enough visas.

That's in addition to other reforms this program needs like the right to
switch jobs.

~~~
pslam
A bidding system would inevitably favor businesses with more resources to
spend on employment. I'm not sure whether that would end up being a good
thing. It's already _extremely expensive_ to hire someone on an H1B visa,
despite what myths may have been spread, due to legal and logistical expenses.

There is an abuse I have however heard of (sorry no citation): obtaining H1B
visas for employees you never intend to bring to the US. This is due to how
difficult it is to get work visas to the US, so you end up with an H1B "just
in case" you need them to travel.

The right to switch jobs is another tricky one. The remit of an H1B is to
place a foreign worker in a _job role_ which has been demonstrated to be
difficult to fill with a citizen. It does not replace an individual _job_. You
can switch jobs with an H1B so long as the other job is the same job role
(very much the same job responsibilities). This seems ok to begin with, but
after several years it turns into a shackle because it's difficult for H1B
workers, who by their nature are specialists, to switch to another job with
the same specialist role. Combine that with the huge amount of time it can
take to convert to a green card (5-10 years for some countries), and they're
stuck in a job for most of a decade in an era where job hopping is common.

~~~
geebee
the problem with the "extremely expensive" claim is that you do get a worker
who is somewhat captive in a tight labor market. It is inaccurate to claim, as
some people do, that H1B holders can't switch jobs, but they do face much
greater barriers (they can't just quit, enter a new field, start up their own
business or consultancy... even changing to a nearly identical job in the same
field requires new sponsorship).

If the visa were awarded directly to the immigrant in such a way that an H1B
holder had essentially the same job mobility as a green card holder, I'd be
more inclined to agree that the process is expensive. After all, you'd be
paying big $$ to hire someone who has the right to quit the first day on the
job.

------
c0mpute
Sigh, this lottery reminds of those grim years of 2007/08 when the lottery was
in effect. The demand then was largely due to the "bodyshopping" companies
filing H1s even when they did not have a valid client. USCIS cracked down on
them in the following years. Now it appears the general demand for IT has gone
up.

Here is the distribution of H1-bs amongst companies last year (the cap was
filled on June-11th I think).

<http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx>

Look at the number of offshoring companies in that list! And look at the
average salaries they pay (still higher than the stipulated 60k I think). I am
also aware of some of these offshoring companies who file for h1 and then
don't bring the person to US in the year (they reserve it for future).

There should be some way to weed out these Indian offshorers who file for h1
and never use it.

Good luck to all who are hoping to get a H1! (that includes me)

------
vowelless
I'm so lucky that I got my visa last year. Then I did a transfer to work at a
start up and didn't count in the cap either.

Having to worry about potential deportation in addition to the risks of a
startup seem like an overkill. I'm probably going to move to Canada if my
current startup fails (unlikely that it will). It is much easier to become a
resident there. Additionally, I don't want my dating life to influenced by
such decisions.

------
shaohua
God. This is depressing. Only 52% of chance getting a Visa. Who wants to buy a
2011 Mini Cooper? I am selling my car and ready to go back to China.

~~~
robot
I think it is more like %68.5

>>> 85.000 / 124.000 0.6854838709677419

~~~
c0mpute
Actually more like: 65,000/104,000 = 62.5%, assuming someone is not in Masters
quota.

Out of the 124k, 20k will be for masters. The remaining masters join the pool
of lottery for 65k. So there are 65k spots available for 124k - 20k(=104k)

~~~
fab101
Just to add, out of 65,000, few visas are reserved for nationals of
Chile(1400) and Singapore(5700) due to free trade agreements. These visas are
called H1B1 and if unused, apparently they are added to visa cap for next
year. Never heard about any increase in the cap (due to unused Chile/S'pore
H1B1s) though.

------
makmanalp
I think a lot of people are confusing the three kinds of applicants of H-1B
visas. I don't want people to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

* Category 1 is your average small company who found a great foreign engineer and wants to keep them for one reason or the other. These are in the minority.

* Category 2 is your Google, Microsoft, etc hiring high quality engineers.

* Category 3 is your IT outsourcing / consultancy companies, like WiPro, InfoSys etc.

=======

Of H-1B applicants, #3 is overwhelmingly the largest. These companies fill up
most of the quota and crowd out the smaller employers. They also pay closest
to prevailing wage (i.e. "low" wages). The crappy part is that sometimes they
don't even end up using those H-1Bs down the road while people like me lose
their chance in the lottery.

#1 and especially #2 seem to pay wages that are not really correlated with
prevailing wage, they pay what they think an employee is worth. In #2's case
this can be multiples above prevailing.

A per company limit could help with this, and seems fair to me. This would
also distribute the foreign labor better. Not everyone would apply to WiPro et
al because they know they're getting a guaranteed visa. Instead smaller
companies would get some attention too, and the "h-1b sweat shop" dynamic
would be reduced. There are already penalties for being H-1B dependent, but
apparently not large enough to be a deterrent.

Or maybe smaller companies could be cap exempt, or part of their own cap. It's
not like they are threatening to overthrow the US labor market, accounting for
maybe 10k jobs a year. Leave them alone. Let the larger multinationals and
such deal with expensive legal procedures, since they really have the power to
displace American workers.

======

Of the PERM (green card) applicants, the overwhelming majority is #2, followed
by #1 and then #3. This tells you how much cat#3 cares about retaining their
H-1B workers. For them, I imagine H-1Bs are an incentive for their workers to
come work in the US for the lower end of the prevailing wage, and maybe a
vague promise for immigration that doesn't get fulfilled very often.
Otherwise, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just get an L-1 for your employee
(which is even more abusive since it has absolutely no prevailing wage
requirements).

======

Another tangential point is that people say that this isn't an enforcement
problem but in some respects it is. Prevailing wage is determined not only by
your profession / job but also your level in that job. I imagine many
companies misrepresent that level and also the job title (programmer instead
of software architect, etc) to be able to pay lower. Of course the way the
government checks against this is mainly through attestation: you tell them
what the job description is and they compare with the description of that
level. After that there is 0 enforcement. But I'm not sure if more enforcement
is the key, since even the mention of an audit is enough to stop any but the
largest companies (with expensive counsel) from hiring H-1Bs.

========

Anyway, hope this gives you guys some perspective. It's not all bad, and not
everyone is in the business of undercutting Americans. But reform is
definitely needed. People like me are struggling.

~~~
keerthiko
I would also like to point out that Category 1 (maybe not necessarily your
"average" small company) may include extremely early stage startups that are
still in pre-series-A funding.

Some (smart or stupid, but capable) risk-takers are willing to join the first
10 members of such teams for equity and/or becoming founding members for far
less than "commensurate pay" for their role. That "role" itself may be
something blurring the lines between many things, they may have to take up
lead positions in departments they know little to nothing about. The rigid
policies around authorizing people to work in this country is an unnecessarily
and ridiculously high barrier.

Now this would all be understandable even for legal immigration if the United
States was suffering a massive population problem (like most of the countries
these immigrants may be coming from), but that is far from the case here. The
worry is that the immigrants will do more harm than good.

Given that I believe I'm a person willing to pay my taxes, contribute to the
economy positively (possibly hugely), support myself (and be responsible about
any dependents I may take up) and not be a criminal, I feel the machinery in
place just prevents innovation and entrepreneurship and holds the economy
back.

Or maybe I'm just really stupid and don't understand how country's and
economies work.

Source: I'm yet another H1B applicant, currently the 4th member of a tech
startup and looking into starting another venture with my technical
background, while being threatened to be deported every 6 months.

~~~
makmanalp
Great point! I've also written about this:

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5265181>

Although my views have slightly changed since then, I think many of the points
still stand.

------
mahyarm
This is why bay area tech companies have to start accepting remote work more.
It's easier to work with remote workers than to deal with the H-1B cap and
waiting until next October. If you must restrict, just keep them within North
& South America so you avoid major time zone issues.

~~~
jacques_chester
Lots of companies accept remote workers, but not _foreign_ remote workers.

One of my particular pet peeves with StackOverflow's jobs board is the endless
parade of remote work with "NO NON-US CITIZENS" at the bottom of the job
description.

------
hurrycane
It's insane. So if I'm a truly passionate and talented but I'm not a US
citizen I don't get to play with the best because only the first 65k get to do
it? I bet most of them are applying to big companies and the percent of
startups is really small.

------
tptacek
We were warned months ago that for all intents and purposes, we'd have one day
to get H1B paperwork in; the cap was hit almost immediately last year, too.

~~~
eliben
Not true. Last year the cap was reached in mid-June
([http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f...](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=ee9f3f93131e7310VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=68439c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD))

~~~
tptacek
Are our immigration attorneys crazy, or am I mixing up last year and a year
before?

~~~
c0mpute
eliben is right. Last year the visas were available until June. The year
before that it was sometime in November, and the year before that it was
sometime in December. But, based on last year's pattern all attorneys
predicted it would be reached on April 1st this year.

IIRC, it was in 2007/2008 when the cap was reached on day1.

~~~
zaatar
That is correct, 2007 was the first year this whole mess started, and resulted
in the creation of a lottery system. It was the year I got my H1B, and I
didn't know until late June - early July if I made it or not ...

------
helipad
The fact that the cap was reached in a week shows you how silly it is.

------
ultimoo
I really hope the USCIS increases these caps in the coming years.

It is incredible how much power the computerized lottery system wields to
change the lives of candidates who file for H1-B visas.

Source: I'm one.

~~~
prostoalex
It's up to the Congress to increase the cap. USCIS just executes on whatever
decision they're handed down from the Congress+President.

------
moiiom
I'm so stressed… I can't believe I play my future in a lottery.

~~~
patothon
This lottery always amazed me from outside. Now that I applied, I find it
awful =)

~~~
saffer
Yeah ... I guess I'm lucky I'm still in school, so if this fails I can still
work on OPT for a year and apply again.

Otherwise I'd be asking my employer how difficult it is to transfer to their
Canadian office...

------
manishsharan
fyi - Exemption for U.S. Master's Degree:

Under the law the first 20,000 H1B petitions that are filed on behalf of
foreign nationals that have earned an advanced degree from a U.S. institution
of higher education are exempt from the USCIS H1B quota. This essentially
creates a separate pool of 20,000 additional H1B visa numbers each fiscal year
that are available only to those foreign nationals who have earned a Master's
or higher graduate degree from a US institution of higher education.

src :[http://www.visapro.com/Immigration-
Articles/?a=1090&z=48](http://www.visapro.com/Immigration-
Articles/?a=1090&z=48)

~~~
krakensden
Which is why there are master's degree mills for the people running bodyshops.

~~~
manishsharan
Check out almost any Comp Sci faculty at any major american university -- you
will find a lot of foreigners --- especially Chinese and Indian kids. These
universities and those kids have nothing to do with bodyshops. To lump all of
them with bodyshoppers is just ignorant.

~~~
krakensden
My understanding is that those smart kids at the major universities doing
computer science aren't getting those H1B visas, and they certainly aren't
working at the bodyshops. They're on student visas.

The big companies get some, but most of the slots, even for the masters-
degree-only section, go to "insourcing" outfits that have the paperwork down
to a science, and have a list of colleges with super slightweight (but still
accredited) masters degree programs.

------
patothon
So basically everyone is holding his/her breath right now? Damn heart
pounding. =)

------
stefap2
I guess I got lucky. I applied for H1B in 2009 and the annual quota remained
open for 280 days that year. I know great number of engineers who were able to
stay because of H1Bs. Company has to offer what is a comparable wage in that
region for a particular profession.

------
gdonelli
looks like 50% chance

------
ttrreeww
If there's no H-1B visa, salary for software developers would be reaching Wall
Street levels right now...

