
ElementaryOs Luna released - agumonkey
http://elementaryos.org/
======
aroman
I have been a developer for elementary for 3 years, and I am part of the
elementary core team. I am also personally close friends with much of the
design and development team, including the project's founder and lead
designer, Daniel Foré.

There seems to be a lot of feedback here which basically says "this trying to
rip off OS X". I would like to offer you some insight into our internal
assessment of these claims.

Is elementary OS reminiscent of OS X? I can't disagree. Did we actively
_intend_ for it to be reminiscent of OS X? Absolutely not.

We build upon good ideas from all sources. We don't have a dock and silver
window chrome because OS X does. We made those design choices because they
work (Windows has slowly made its task bar more and more like the OS X dock)
and because they look good.

Could we have changed the window chrome to be, say, green, just to try to make
ourselves stand out from OS X? Sure, but frankly, we don't feel we have to. I
think there is a strong sense in our design team that we shouldn't change
things simply for the sake of being "different" \-- we should change things to
actually improve them.

Disclaimer: I wrote this post myself and it reflects my own personal opinions,
though I'd be happy to ask other core team members to back me up here -- I
think they'd agree.

~~~
millstone
OS X System Preferences screenshot:
[http://imgur.com/RLB8JZp](http://imgur.com/RLB8JZp)

ElementaryOS settings screenshot:
[http://i.imgur.com/vnjmHrQ.png](http://i.imgur.com/vnjmHrQ.png)

It's got the same left-aligned, bolded categories, in the same order, with
almost identical text. It even senselessly copied the choice of the Apple
Magic Mouse as the mouse icon. That tiny smudge at the bottom represents the
Apple logo!

I don't mean to suggest that an ElementaryOS designer is responsible for this
instance. A similar layout and icon is used in Xubuntu. But Linux is clearly
doing more than "building on ideas" in its relation to OS X.

~~~
aroman
As a matter of fact, I wrote that very program, Switchboard.

It's getting late and I don't want to write a whole book about it's design
(though I could), but basically here's the story:

I saw some mockups Daniel Fore (the project's founder and lead designer)
created for a hypothetical system settings app. Here's an example:
[http://danrabbit.deviantart.com/art/User-Accounts-
Plug-19860...](http://danrabbit.deviantart.com/art/User-Accounts-
Plug-198608643)

I set about coding the app. I was painfully aware of the visual similarities
between OS X and Switchboard. I spent literally MONTHS wracking my brain
trying to find a better design which was as elegant and efficient. I argued
with Dan (who had created a mockup which would become the main interface for
switchboard, which you linked), I talked to other designers, I mocked things
up by hand. And I/we came up with some really creative alternatives which
looked very little like System Preferences in OS X.

In the end however, I was faced with an ultimatum. Do I change the settings
app JUST to look different than OS X, and lose out on the well-established
excellence of Apple's design?

I truly felt awful about having to face that question. Frankly, it made me
upset and depressed for quite a bit. Ultimately however, I was convinced and
just said "screw it".

You're absolutely right that I'm not the first one to "copy" Apple's settings
program. Here's Ubuntu's. It's extremely similar to the two ones you linked:
[http://zeth.net/archive/wp-
content/uploads/2011/11/ubuntu111...](http://zeth.net/archive/wp-
content/uploads/2011/11/ubuntu1110-2-settings.png)

You could say that I failed. You could say I failed to come up with a better
interface. And in that sense, I did. But I get extremely frustrated when
people dismiss the product of my careful investigation and thought into this
matter as "oh, he just wholesale copied OS X". Because it ignores the fact
that I really tried to come up with a better solution.

In the end I couldn't, and it seems nobody else has either.

I will say though, I did really try to innovate on the technical side. And in
that sense, I think I succeeded. You can see that in some of Switchboard's
finer points, such as exposing APIs to the settings panes (which are called
Switchboard "plugs") which allow them to actually interact with Switchboard's
internal UI, providing, among other things, progress bar support in the title
bar.

I wrote an article for the elementary Journal announcing Switchboard here:
[http://elementaryos.org/journal/attack-
settings](http://elementaryos.org/journal/attack-settings)

And I put together a quick presentation highlighting Switchboard's vision and
architecture here:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF37THZoNsA](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF37THZoNsA)
|
[https://docs.google.com/present/edit?id=0Aah2wnTpXrZAZGRuaDI...](https://docs.google.com/present/edit?id=0Aah2wnTpXrZAZGRuaDI4bmdfNWYyOWpzN2Rm&hl=en_US)

Hopefully, you can see that we did not just "senselessly copy" anything.

~~~
onli
> Do I change the settings app JUST to look different than OS X, and lose out
> on the well-established excellence of Apple's design?

I want to single that statement out and go on from there. I'm a bit hesitant
to write this comment because, well, I'm about to criticize you and Apple, and
at least the latter tends to invite downvotes and a not so nice discussion.
But I think it is important to try to get that message across.

When I see an OS X clone or designers trying to copy OS X, like Ubuntu did
with Unity (placing the windows title buttons to the left just because, global
menu and so on) I don't think it is bad because it is _copying_ something. I
feel when something like this happens like an opportunity is missed to do
something better, and that someone must have made the decision who sees
himself as designer and uses OS X and now copies OS X. Which is bad mainly
because: The "well established excellence of Apple's design" is questionable.
It is just not there, from my perspective.

Apple made good stuff. The iPhone was groundbreaking, like maybe other of
their stuff before - I won't argue with that. But that doesn't mean all of it
is great. And especially on the software side. When judging the software I
tend to think that it is not always that great - one finds clear usability
errors, weird graphical designs, whole concepts that only seem to work for
people being strongly accustomed to them. To copy them blindly leads to
disaster, not only when copying the errors Apple made, also when copying sound
concepts.

Take the global menu Ubuntu copied. It sacrifices visibility and therefore
discoverability of the menu items for visual appeal. And yes, that leads to
issues - just yesterday I looked a guy over the shoulder on a crypto party who
came from windows, had unity freshly installed and didn't find the option he
should have because it simply wasn't visible. I had to show him that the item
was hidden, that he had to hover the global menu bar. Clearly, from an
usability perspective, Unity became worse because it tried to copy OS X (guess
which system its designer at the time was using. You won't need three tries.).

What I'm trying to say is: You say you tried to come up with your own design.
I applaud that. And now you copied something which was there, which is alright
(though to copy the Mac OS Icons is a ripoff in bad style, completely
unnecessary, even if that wasn't you fault). But I want to invite you to free
yourself from the thinking that a design is excellent because it is made by
Apple. Don't fall into this trap. Don't regard good design as process which is
a restyling of old Linux programs with their own design history or windows
influenced stuff to stuff that looks and feel like OS X and therefore is good.
Stuff is good because it works and is beautiful or whatever you want to
achieve, and it is not necessary to copy Apple when trying to build something
useable and beautiful. And it is especially not necessary that when already
copying Apple, then even to copy the visual characteristics like the icons or
the colours or the font. Elementary is a name in some circles by now already -
please use that to try to find your own style (Linux would profit!).

Maybe you personally don't even do this. Maybe you are not a designer who uses
OS X and defines himself by that and therefore only copies OS X. But the
presentation of the elementary OS sure gives the feeling that this is exactly
what happened - OS X guys building what they already have, just in "free",
just running under Linux. That would be a pity, because the Linux desktop can
use people trying to design it into a better form - what it doesn't need is to
become OS X.

PS: It would've been really easy to find better categories. That the whole
thing is just x sections with one or more rows of Icons in it, that is alright
- one could easily come up with that solution when designing it from scratch,
it is sound. But why the section names? Just by glancing on it one has to
realize there are other possible and sound options.

~~~
aroman
All I can say in response to this is that design is easier said than done. We
didn't copy, we came to the same conclusions. I'm not saying those are the
_only_ conclusions, but we're not human-computer interaction theorists, we
build practical things. Sometimes practicality trumps purity, and sometimes
purity trumps idealism.

If you're criticizing us for not being perfect and not innovating enough, I
can't argue. But don't assume (I am explicitly rejecting the claim) that we
simply love OS X and want to make our own free version of it, or that we treat
Apple as some sort of standard of "proper design". All I can do is invite you
to come down to the trenches with us and see what it's all about. I think
you'll find it's harder than you might imagine.

P.S It absolutely would not have been easier to find better categories. Those
categories are the result of the manual naming tens of thousands of Debian
packages going back a decade or more. We give users the option of browsing (as
has been the tradition on the Linux desktop for the last 7+ years) by the
traditional categories, or by using a free-form fluid list.

P.P.S Frankly, I find your dismissal of our design efforts mildly insulting,
though I know you only meant to provide constructive and thoughtful criticism
(which I appreciate, at any rate). A bit of constructive criticism for you
would be to avoid assuming that because something seems like an obvious
solution that it must have been the first or easiest solution. This can come
across as arrogant and belittling, and has the tendency to undermine the
constructivity of your feedback.

~~~
onli
And that there are exactly four of them so it turned out like the well-
established excellence of Apples design is an happy accident as well? ;) Come
on - it is highly unlikely you (=the project) would've arrived at the current
result without some form of OSX influence. Anyway, that's beside the point,
and if you find that insulting I won't repeat it here - probably enough
comments in that direction for now.

Trying to be constructive: You might want to try to use visual distinction to
minimize the appearance of copying, especially if that wasn't what happened.
Things like the font and the OSX-icon are unnecessary in every case.

Thanks for the invitation, if it's a serious one. I'm using my own ambiance-
themed icewm-desktop with my own dock at the bottom, had a look at a lot of
window managers, and HCI is what I do atm. If I someday want to work on a
desktop for more user than myself I might even remember the offer and will
count on a proper introduction^^

Part of my point was that it is harder than just to copy Apple. I'm happy to
hear you say that.

In every case I give you the benefit of the doubt that it might behave so much
in its own way that the resemblance would be insignificant when actually using
it.

And have fun with your release - I bet it will be quite popular.

~~~
boyaka
Resemblance to OSX seems to be quite significantly negative to you, but I
would wager it is not for most people. I would also wager that unique visuals
are not important for the mass majority of users, and that this also can have
a negative impact on usability for many of them.

I might have older icons because I'm running Lion on this hard drive (I've got
Mountain Lion on my other drive, I don't recall any icon differences) but
their icons do not look the same as mine.

Your previous comment was a slew of accusations that they have copied OSX
(with few examples of such copying), along with ranting about how
unspectacular Apple is. They never stated there was no influence from OSX;
it's obvious there is, and there is nothing wrong with that.

~~~
onli
Two comments above my first comment micampe posted screenshots. Some of the
icons are clearly lookalikes. And even if they weren't: An Apple mouse for a
linux-icon is a noteworthy choice and could be called a Mac/apple-Icon even
without visual resemblance of the icon style itself.

I don't like it when my comments are called rants when they aren't. I tried
very carefully to walk the line here, especially I didn't want to (and didn't)
bash Apple.

It's obvious that there is influence and I argued why that may be dangerous.
Software design is in a special position, copying Apple can be a bad sign and
so on... I won't repeat it.

------
nosefrog
Mark my words: elementary OS is going to be big.

I was on a beta version of elementary OS a couple months ago, and it was like
a breath of fresh air.

elementary OS sets out to settle the number one complaint casual users have of
other Linux distributions: design. Other Linux distributions look like a mish-
mash of a bunch of different designs by many different people. elementary OS
has a beautiful, striking, and (most importantly) consistent vision driving
the look and feel of all its applications.

The only thing that previously kept me suggesting elementary OS to people who
don't normally use Linux was its instability as a beta release. If this
release is as stable as I hope it is, then elementary OS is without a doubt
the best distribution to introduce new people to Linux.

I think the following quote pulled from an update on elementary's website
defending some unconventional decisions they've made[0] illustrates best what
they're trying to do:

 _We know there are many traditional Linux users out there exclaiming that
Linux is all about choices and we should make everything configurable because
that’s freedom. But that isn’t why most of you are here in the first place.
You’re here because we’ve been making choices for you. Lots of them. We always
have and always will. We’re the open source OS with opinionated design. That’s
what makes elementary so good. We trim the fat. We optimize. We organize. We
rethink._

That's an attitude that's sorely missing in the Linux community. elementary is
tackling hard problems and succeeding.

I look forward to the the success of elementary OS.

[0] [http://elementaryos.org/journal/we-moved-
cheese](http://elementaryos.org/journal/we-moved-cheese)

~~~
frozenport
I have never heard anybody say Linux doesn't look sexy. Remember when we were
comparing Compiz to Windows XP, or Enlightenment to Windows 2000? Ubuntu is
one of the few OSs that can pull a black theme.

Linux problems include:

1\. Hardware compatibility

2\. Office compatibility (also Adobe + games)

3\. Easy to mess up your system with no hope of fixing it

I don't see how any of these address the problems with Linux.

I run Gentoo with XFCE as my main OS, SUSE at work, and Windows to make
presentations.

Fun things to do include: tight WINE integration, better genkernel, modular
configuration structure so that it is harder to mess up and easier to restore.

~~~
Justsignedup
Compiz is sexy, with it's sexy animations, and it's sexy rotations, and I
still couldn't get it as usable as I had windows be. That's the point. Sexy is
secondary to utility. They appear to be basically trying to copy the good
parts of OSX.

~~~
ineedtosleep
Which "good parts", exactly, are you talking about? There's a lot of talk of
elementary copying OSX, but much of the video is default functionality of
GNOME/Compiz -- no one is specifying _exactly_ what is being copied. The only
major difference is a grey theme, which is probably triggering the whole OSX
copy nonsense.

~~~
aroman
In fact, the video (and Luna) uses neither GNOME nor compiz. We use our own
window manager called "Gala"[1] (it is based on the same library that gnome's
is) in our own desktop environment called "Pantheon"[2].

[1] [http://elementaryos.org/journal/meet-gala-window-
manager](http://elementaryos.org/journal/meet-gala-window-manager)

[2] (I couldn't find an elementary journal article explicitly about this, but
here's one from the Gentoo wiki):
[http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Pantheon](http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Pantheon)

------
wellementary
Background: have been using the early (read: 'unstable') betas of eOS for
quite sometime now (almost 1 year in fact!)

I have gone so far as having installed it onto actual live / production
(networked) environments (who were previosly running M$ junk).

Apart from a few minor quibbles (most of which were easily fixed) it has been
_absolutely flawless_!!

The biggest testament to the design philosophy / directions that these guys
have taken is, in my opinion, the simple fact that I was able to transition
non-technical end users from using Windows to using eOS (and therefore Linux)
in a live SME environment without any downtime and very, very minimal
training! Try doing that with some other OS's or distros!! And this was with
the _beta /unfinished_ version!!

Given how well that went, I have also now managed to get it installed
successfully on at least 4 Macs (iMacs, MacBook Pros and a recent MacBook
Air). And I didn't even bother with rEFIT or any dual booting
shenanigans.....I literally downloaded the ISO....burnt it to a CD ....booted
the Mac from the CD ans clicked "Install Elementarty OS"..... and in about 10
mins flat I have brand new, screaming FAST, lightweight and _beautifully
thought-out_ Linux OS running perfectly!

Oh, and just for the record....as someone with a background in design and who
has used every flavour of Apple hardware and software since the AppleII 'Euro
Plus' (the one with Steve W's signature on the box!;) .....this is NOT a
simple 'knock off' of OSX or anything else. The people who say this I would
wager have either not used it so are basing it off a few screen grabs which
tell you nothing..or, just have no idea about UI/UX whatsoever. As someone who
has been using this day-in day-out now for quite some time.....this already is
way ahead of Apple in a lot of respects (and wherever it isn't yet, I have
total confidence that the eOS team will keep improving it!).

This is not a paid advert, I have absolutely no affiliation with this project,
I just thought I should put my 2 cents in so hopefully some others can benefit
from my experiences with this GREAT project!!!

Keep it up guys

E

------
u2328
This is cool. Finally, a Linux distro that I could set my less-than-technical
friends and family with.

(Why not Ubuntu, you might ask? Simple: Ubuntu ships off their users' desktop
search results to Amazon by default. I know it can be disabled and all that,
but that's besides the point. I can't recommend software from people who don't
respect their users' privacy.)

~~~
Sven7
I see. And how do your holiness save your "less-than-technical friends and
family" from Google, Gmail, iTunes, YouTube, Facebook....

~~~
u2328
Wow, such vitriol. Let me guess, you're a big Ubuntu fan, and my assertion
about privacy offended you and your clan. Now you're trying to peg me as some
sort of moral absolutist. Well, I'm not, I just do what I can do when it comes
to getting people to use software that respect their privacy.

Obviously, people make their own decisions. Sometimes they ask
recommendations, and I respond with my honest opinion. So when it comes to
Ubuntu, I tell them that I would not recommend it, for the reason I explained
above.

~~~
dkuntz2
I'm the exact opposite of a big Ubuntu fan (I was, but after the switch to
Unity everything started being slow, and Canonical started getting weird, and
I realized I didn't really like the community behind it, but those are all
tangential points), and I agree with him/her/whatever. Making the claim that
you're saving them from "the evils of Amazon and Canonical", while not doing
the same for other things that are worse offenders than Ubuntu is rather
hypocritical.

Your first comment implied that you're moral absolutist on this front.

Okay, you might be suggesting that they not use those other things, but your
attempt to debase the previous comment on the grounds that they _might_ like
Ubuntu is silly and worthless.

~~~
u2328
You're extracting some sort of context that I did not make, and that you're
attributing a quote to me that I never said makes me thing that you didn't
bother to even digest my statements.

If anything here is silly and worthless, it is engaging any further in this
thread with you.

------
nsmartt
I really like a lot of the stuff Elementary is doing, but I _loathe_ the way
they're mimicking OS X. It's a complete deal breaker for me. It feels like a
knock-off.

~~~
silverlight
As someone who just watched the video but hasn't used it yet, that was my
thought as well. Are they doing things design-wise and interface-wise that are
different than OSX? Or are they simply aiming to re-implement OSX's GUI in
Linux? (This is meant as an honest, non-sarcastic question, my curiosity is
piqued but I'm genuinely wondering what their goal is)

~~~
wickedchap
If you know anything of design, Elementary is not a clone nor is mimicking
OSX. Or, put differently; everybody is copying everybody. If you have good
enough eye sight, then you can see that the difference between OSX and
Elementary is huge. Dock was used before OSX, so you can't say that's copying
from OSX. The light-gray colors and clinically clean interface was also used
before OSX.

~~~
minor_nitwit
They use the genie animation to minimize apps, and the full screen button is
identical to the one in OSX. If they're not mimicking OSX then why are things
like that in there?

~~~
aroman
We absolutely do _not_ use the genie to minimize apps (nor is such
functionality even available in the program we use for our dock, Plank), and
in fact we came up with our full screen button months before Apple made that
design change public. For proof (or at least evidence coupled with my personal
assurance) of the latter claim, see this mockup[1] which was submitted July
10, 2010. That's 1 year and 10 days before OS X Lion (the first release to
feature similar maximize buttons) was released -- even before the betas.

Also, it should be noted: that window control control does not behave the way
OS X's similar one does. Fills the screen but does not take the application
full screen.

[1]:
[http://danrabbit.deviantart.com/art/Postler-170793979](http://danrabbit.deviantart.com/art/Postler-170793979)

~~~
minor_nitwit
What is this animation?
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LjC...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LjCN_sbc1t4&t=10)

~~~
aroman
That is not our dock, and that is not Luna. We didn't make that video.
Apparently it was made by a fan who had built his own version of Luna using
some of our software. I can assure you that genie animation is nowhere in any
code elementary ships with.

------
jordanmoore_
A couple of things:

* The side-swipe at Apple in the video for doing "one thing well" is a misleading statement. Apple build computers that do _a lot_ of things, not just to enjoy music.

* The sly dig at Apple product videos at the beginning gets more and more ironic as the video slowly transforms into the Apple product video style towards the end.

* And the side-swipe is just poor form considering the OS does look OSX-inspired. I know this is an old argument about eOS but it's worth mentioning when the sly digs in the video bring it up.

I only intend this criticism as constructive because I know you guys are on to
a great thing here, I just don't think you need the hints towards other OS's
to put yourselves ahead of the game, you are better than that!

Further points:

* I commend you guys for the hard work you have put into this OS. Elementary was my distro of choice when I was a Linux user, it's fast, beautiful and task orientated, so keep up the good work

* It's fantastic to see the base install apps conforming to a visual style whereas on other distros the theming can look quite disjointed.

------
jgoodwin
I haven't used a Mac since a bit after the introduction of quadro or whatever
it was, so I don't have a dog in most of the discussion above. I also don't
own a mobile device. Those facts probably date me as a Linux user.

Here's a suggestion for designers: the age of the Linux user base is aging at
a rate of one year per year. That doesn't mean there are no young ones, only
that we are going where no Linux user has gone before (I joined various Linux
projects back in 1992.)

Every human on earth, after there mid 40s, experiences changes in the
geometric optics of their vision system. As my eye doctor says, the denial
rate is 100% and the participation rate is 100% -- if you are lucky enough to
reach that age.

Please design an accessible operating system we can still use in our 80s. This
is a very big opportunity. How old will you be in 2038 is maybe a good design
target. ;)

Accessible on a mobile device, a desktop, and able to function smoothly with
presbyteropia is the basic design spec.

Get your team an old geek geezer or two to tell what works and what doesn't.
When I forget my reading glasses at work, I have to use the Magnify app on
Win7. Go ahead and try this, and see what the experience is like and if it's
so perfect it can't be improved on you are done. Otherwise, work on that
aspect of your design.

Even if you are young and not 'there' yet, try out the Magnify app, and try
whatever Linux has to offer on your distro of choice for the same thing. It
completely changes how you size windows and operated effectively. It will give
you insight into important principles of design such as navigating windows,
scrolling, keyboard usage, etc.

There is no need to make the very best of what exists today -- make the very
best that will be needed tomorrow.

You will appreciate this advice one day.

------
adrianlmm
Congratulations to the ElementaryOs team, I recognize the effort you have put
developing your own tools in a great language like Vala.

I don't believe that you try to mimic OSX because I have used it and they are
not as similar, I think the people say it because they see the elegance you
have put on it.

~~~
dombili
I haven't yet tried the OS so I can not speak from an experience, but after
watching the introduction video, I think it was pretty clear that they took
some design ideas from OS X (I'm putting it lightly). Even the wallpaper was
the same.

I'm downloading the OS right now and I hope I'll like it. It always makes me
happy to see people trying to get casual users to use Linux. I hope they
succeed. Having said that, the introduction video left a bad taste in my
mouth.

Update: I'm using it right now and I love it! Great job. I have to give it
more time, but I may even use this as my main OS on my notebook if everything
goes smoothly. Looks very promising.

------
adamnemecek
It's interesting that it seems like parts of the os are written in Vala. I've
never seen that used out in the wild.

~~~
harveycabaguio
Everything that the elementary team coded is written in Vala. The apps, the
DE, the libraries, all of them are in vala.

------
codebeard
Can anyone provide some specific examples of how this is a "copy" of OSX? I am
someone who sparsely used Os X and is admittedly anti-Apple.

I'm trying hard not to assume the people in the thread saying it's a copy are
more than just Apple zealots but it's difficult when no one provides any
evidence.

~~~
rob05c
Watching the video, I identified:

1 login screen has a picture of a galaxy.

2 windows are white-themed, with rounded corners, and minimalistic
buttons/scrollbars.

3 music player is reminiscent of iTunes with time bar and track info top-and-
center, and large album art pane.

4 system settings window has radio-buttons-like-normal-buttons reminiscent of
OSX system settings. Also has a search bar in the upper-right of the window,
with minimalistic magnifying glass.

5 windows have no visual border on sides and bottom.

6 Dock.

7 Expose-style viewing of all windows.

8 top-of-screen menu, with system icons in upper-right.

As I said in a previous comment, Apple didn't invent many of these, if any.
Many, perhaps all, of these points are simply good design. However, they all
combine to make the GUI "feel" like OSX to me.

Furthermore, it isn't a "copy." You can certainly identify as many differences
as similarities. It simply shares a certain design aesthetic.

The galaxy login pic at the beginning didn't help :P

~~~
codebeard
Thanks for the response. I guess I'll have to really poke around with it and
get a feel for myself.

------
afita
I showed ElementaryOS to my art-student sister and she loved it! She wants me
to install it alongside her Windows OS so she can dual-boot.

She loves the simplicity and says that what she does on the net and her PC is
completely covered by Elementary. Document writing, web browsing, text chat,
email, video viewing, audio listening - all can be done easily and user-
friendly.

Elementary is not enough for my advanced needs (I don't like docks, I prefer
taskbars), but looks like Elementary might have some traction in the regular-
user market.

Keep up the good work guys!

------
reidrac
I miss some easy access info in the website about the "building blocks" of
this Linux distro.

Wikipedia to the rescue:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_(operating_system)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_\(operating_system\))

Also, worth reading: [http://elementaryos.org/docs/user-guide/technical-
specificat...](http://elementaryos.org/docs/user-guide/technical-
specifications)

It's based in Ubuntu 12.04 LTS (Linux kernel 3.2.0).

------
shirro
Here I am stuck on "pretty" OS X because of the support for sexy hardware and
all I really want is awesome window manager, chrome and some terminals. If
only there was a haswell ultrabook with a huge trackpad, nice backlit
keyboard, hd screen and out of box linux support with drivers that gave
windows graphics performance and os x battery life. Anyone who wants a dumbed
down UI has got an iPad already.

------
miles
From the homepage:

 _Luna is built on the rock-solid foundation of Linux (the same software that
powers the US Department of Defense, the Bank of China, and more). It has no
known viruses, which means no pesky anti-virus software to slow down your
system._

Linux has "no known viruses"?!

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_malware](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_malware)

[https://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/284124-myth-busting-
is...](https://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/284124-myth-busting-is-linux-
immune-to-viruses)

[https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Linuxvirus](https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Linuxvirus)

[http://www.zdnet.com/linux-desktop-trojan-hand-of-thief-
stea...](http://www.zdnet.com/linux-desktop-trojan-hand-of-thief-steals-
in-7000019175/)

------
eddieroger
Was there a reason to start with Ubuntu and not go upstream a bit and use
Debian? I associate Unity and the UI of Ubuntu as the biggest differentiator
between Debian and Ubuntu, and if they pulled that out, why not go upstream a
bit and knock out more of the cruft?

------
e12e
It looks like this might be an interesting competitor/test ground wrt Gnome 3
(and beyond). They're using Vala heavily, and they don't have any strong
committed user base yet -- and therefore no need for backwards comparability.

Also nice to see a project that goes beyond simply building on top of Linux --
rethinking how apps are open/closed/minimized is a great example of this.

I doubt I'll ever use it for anything other than fun, though. I need my legacy
apps, I can't _work_ with a mouse (due to RSI and efficiency -- I've become
addicted to xmonad like tiling wms, and vim/vimperator keybindings).

But if they can provide a solid alternative desktop experience, that's great!

~~~
e12e
Note-to-self: _not just building on top of a GNU /Linux distro_ \-- I'm sure
most would agree that Android is a pretty big break from most other
distributions as well...

edit: As are the Amazon and Sony e-readers...

------
StavrosK
What is this? The landing page looks interesting but light on explanations.
Has anyone used it? How is it?

~~~
sixbrx
It looks like it's a Darwin/GTK3 open source OS and desktop environment.
Previous release "Jupiter" of 2011 was based on Linux. Has its own development
library, "Granite". I'm surprised I haven't heard of it before, it does look
interesting.

About the move from Linux to Darwin: [http://elementaryos.org/journal/changes-
coming-elementary-os](http://elementaryos.org/journal/changes-coming-
elementary-os)

~~~
vishvananda
so that post is clearly an April fools joke. it even says it is at the bottom.
They kept the name Luna and I suspect is not based on Darwin either.

~~~
workbench
should have been deleted on april 2nd then…

------
jared314
From their blog post about window controls [0], it sounds like they are taking
the iOS approach to application close / minimize, but I can't find any
technical description of how they plan to accomplish that without forcing
applications to implement additional event handlers, or something fancy with
preserving memory and file handles.

[0] [http://elementaryos.org/journal/whats-still-window-
controls](http://elementaryos.org/journal/whats-still-window-controls)

~~~
harveycabaguio
For now the apps elementary have made try to save their state. Window
size/position, auto-save in Scratch, Noise continues to play music even if you
closed it.

------
anandpdoshi
I've been using Elementary OS since beta 1 and I have found it to be the most
usable Linux distribution. Don't get hanged up about them copying mac os. Even
a novice user would find it easy to use. Let's not forget the soothing feel of
the UI. It feels light.

Even android has some parts copied from ios, and yet you don't want to
complain about it because it lets you get similar experience within your
budget. It gives you a likeable option, copy or not.

Just give it a try. Don't judge from the video alone.

------
djhworld
This is cool but I'm not really sure if I like the "opinionated" design aspect
of it all. The terminal application is drawn with a slight level of
transparency that you can't seem to (easily) turn off. I like my terminals
like my coffee in the morning.

Also my first port of call was to remove Midori and install firefox.

I must admit though, the interface is a lot lighterweight than unity and much
better in my opinon. Whenever I install Ubuntu on anything I immediately
remove unity and install gnome-classic.

~~~
munchor
Hello, Terminal developer here.

sudo apt-get install dconf-editor dconf-editor

Go on org>pantheon>terminal>settings and you'll find plenty to configure. Feel
free to report any bug on bugs.launchpad.net/pantheon-terminal.

We just don't have a GUI for the settings, but they're there.

------
miloshadzic
This thread is incredible. How can people be such assholes to a bunch of guys
who created a nice UI?

------
awsm
Mac OS X is my primary OS. I also have to run quite a lot of VM's. I have been
running eOS since beta 1. It's by far & away my favourite Linux distro.

Whilst some of the designs are similar and may offer some familiarity to OS X
users initally. The user experience is very different and has clearly been
well thought out and crafted. My only gripe is the time between
updates/releases otherwise I'm a happy user of OS X and eOS.

------
minor_nitwit
I wonder how good their legal team is. Apple is very big on infringing trade
dress.

------
jorgecastillo
I think design is not the number one issue of desktop Linux. Windows is very
ugly and it still dominates desktop computing, by the way KDE looks and feels
amazing. The first problem desktop Linux has to overcome is the lack of
support from computer manufacturers. Most people are not gonna go out of their
way to find a computer with Linux. Another very important issue is that
Windows compatibility is unavoidable. Even OS X which has an even bigger share
of the desktop market than Linux can't fully replace Windows. Most people are
gonna need Windows software sooner or later. Linux has to sell itself as a
better alternative to Windows, not as an affordable alternative to Windows,
people might end up having to spend more money by using Linux.

P.S. I still think self contained applications like in OS X & Windows are way
better than the Linux model. Other than that and hardware support, UNIX-like
systems are superior to Windows in all aspects. I can't live without a decent
shell & decent support for dynamic languages.

~~~
jared314
> I still think self contained applications like in OS X & Windows are way
> better

The single-folder application is a focus of Canonical's new package format
project[0]. I would actually prefer a more LXC-style container format (similar
to Docker.io) than another deb/rpm zip file, but that is personal preference.

[0] [https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-
devel/2013-May/0370...](https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-
devel/2013-May/037074.html)

~~~
jorgecastillo
If Canonical is successful in this new project I will certainly reconsider
using Ubuntu. I can't comment on containers, I sort of know what they are and
that's about it.

------
wickedchap
I've been using Elementary Luna (beta 2) for quite some time now an I've been
waiting for it ever since Jupiter, so you can say I'm pretty damn excited
right now.

P.S. To the Apple lovers out there; dock was used before Mac and please go
learn design and/or get contact lenses or something before you come saying
it's a knock off.

~~~
schappim
Sure, the NextStep Dock... :)

------
Gormo
I'm really, really impressed with the responsiveness of the UI. The only OS I
recall using that was that responsive was BeOS.

Unfortunately, Elementary OS seems to have fallen victim to the aesthetics-
over-functionality trend that's currently plaguing the software world. The
user interface is just too simplistic for this to be a productive OS for day-
to-day work. None of the applications specific to this distro seem to have
menus or configuration options. I can't put files or directories on the
desktop. I tried to use what it came with, but it ended up being to
frustrating; I had to install Firefox, Thunar, and Thunderbird instead of
using the out-of-box browser, file manager, and email client.

I really like some of the basic work that's gone into this OS, but it just
doesn't seem like it can be a viable substitute for more full-featured
distros.

------
autotravis
Just installed this on an acer aspire one. Really nice out of the box. Seems
very refined.

~~~
Ecio78
How is the performance? My wife owns an old Acer Aspire One A150 and it has
become really slow (even if it's running Windows XP) so I'm thinking about
installing Linux Mint or.. something else like this?

~~~
autotravis
Oh, mine is an AO756, with a Celeron CPU so it can handle XP like a breeze.
Your Atom CPU isn't very comparable, so I'm not sure what you should expect.
ElementaryOS is on par with Ubuntu performance wise, although seemingly
snappier compared to Unity (I always use openbox wm with Ubuntu). If you're
looking to improve performance, you could try Elementary, but Lubuntu or
Ubuntu with openbox would be a safe bet.

------
ChuckMcM
I look forward to an ARM version of this, one for Pandaboard and one for
Raspberry Pi.

~~~
aroman
We've got them coming! Some of the guys who work on the build process and the
ISOs have cranked out some ARM builds of Luna. I don't think they're perfect
quite yet, but I fully expect them to be available for download from the
website as soon as they are :)

~~~
aray
Where could those of us with a bit deeper magick in ARM hacking follow along
the process? I'd love to get this running on my samsung ARM chromebook :)

------
dvirsky
I would love to use it on my already existing Ubuntu installation. I see that
it's based on Precise, and I have Raring. Is there an apt repo I can put on
top of my Ubuntu box to enable this?

------
josteink
As a mixed Windows/Ubuntu user (sticking to I3 tiled windows manager for
reference) just trying this out, I have to say this is quite impressive.

I might actually change my Ubuntu setup for this, but I still haven't decided.

Edit: To make it clear, I've considered elementaryos before. I've even booted
a live-installation once or twice. But now I'm considering putting this on one
of my main systems. This is snappy. This is an improvement.

------
da_n
> Good artists copy, great artists steal. Pablo Picasso

To the devs, congratulations on a truly stunning OS, I think I will be
swapping out my Linux Mint install very soon.

------
kefs
The related blog post:

[http://elementaryos.org/journal/the-road-to-
luna](http://elementaryos.org/journal/the-road-to-luna)

------
Ziomislaw
I've never heard about elementaryOS, and frankly the webpage sucks at
providing info. There is no info about what is this, what does it do, no
screenshots (picture to small to comfortably show a window bar and 2 icons is
not a screenshot).

Will my apps work on it? What architecture is this thing supposed to work
with? Is it for smartphones or PC's? etc.

Pictures are pretty, btw (so I don't sound all negative ;p )

------
neona
Honestly, this just looks like yet another linux distro with yet another DE.
The site doesn't really talk about what all it does, and it's pretty vague.

Am I missing something here? Sure, the design looks nice, but I don't see what
compelling reason I have to use this, nor do I know how compatible it'll be
with anything.

Downloading it to try in a VM, if only out of bewilderment and lack of detail.

------
hmart
One strong point for Linux in the desktop is hardware compatibility. Issues
like wifi and graphic cards support, battery duration, hotness, hibernation
and suspension support are vital for users and power users (designers,
developers). This is most important today than application availability.
Unfortunately I don't see any hardware compatibility list for ElementaryOS
yet.

~~~
djhworld
I believe elementaryOS is based on Ubuntu 12.04, it just uses a different
window manager and has a few custom applications.

So as far as I can tell, any hardware that's supported by Ubuntu, should be
supported in eOS too

------
cuttooth
I just quickly installed this in a VM and it's literally just a poorly done OS
X skin laying on top of Ubuntu, all the way down to dock icons bouncing when
clicked. The installer is the standard Ubuntu-derivative fare without much
modification whatsoever.

It's not really much of an upgrade from just running Xubuntu or one of the
more minimalist window managers out there.

------
leke
So is Elementary based on a particular Linux? That is, are the apps coming
from debian or ubuntu repositories?

~~~
aroman
elementary OS is based on Ubuntu. The apps mostly are written in-house
specifically for elementary OS, and are developed on Launchpad and published
as Debian/Ubuntu packages available through the official Ubuntu repositories
and elementary's PPAs.

------
daGrevis
If someone is as lost as me and can't found on which distro this one is based,
it's Ubuntu with Linux 3.2.

After having a quick look using virtual box, it's really handcrafted nicely
and could be a good alternative to Xubuntu. Great job! :)

~~~
munchor
Actually Ubuntu 12.04 LTS.

------
eddflrs
I'm very impressed with the responsiveness of Elementary's Pantheon when
compared to Unity on Ubuntu 12.04. I've been using Ubuntu for over 5 years and
I have to say, I haven't felt such a polished user experience.

------
norswap
Nice! Now if someone could take a similar approach to the linux ugly
underbelly.

------
jalcine
I'm downloading this now and going to throw it up in a live VM. To be honest,
aside from the work-space management and what not in the video; that desktop
looks close to my KDE 4.11 desktop here.

------
tuananh
Those saying they like Elementary OS should just switch to OS X.

I like Ubuntu better. Why? Because Ubuntu offers some real innovations not
just copycat/mimicking OS X like Elementary OS.

~~~
nosefrog
How many Linux distributions focus so much of their efforts on elegant,
usable, and consistent design? I would mark that as elementary's primary
innovation.

~~~
jknightco
But they focus none of there efforts on elegant, usable, and consistent
design. Because none of the effort done was for design. Its literally a carbon
copy of OS X. The layout, the colors, the gradients, the multitasking, the
dock, the app bounce on the dock, the music app, the exposé style window
layout, the mission control tile multiple desktop layout.

Any Linux distro with its own UI spent more time on elegant, usable, and
consistent design than Elementary did.

~~~
oscilloscope
The exposé looks like it's laid out slightly differently than OS X and
includes buttons to close the window.

The multiple desktops is on the bottom and not part of exposé. It includes a
new desktop button. It has a dark background rather than blending in with the
desktop. It appears you can drag app icons from one desktop to another-- I've
never seen that feature before.

The header is black/dark grey, not silver. The colors, gradients and layout of
their music player and iTunes look significantly different when compared side
by side.

The file manager is greyscale: it doesn't appear to use blue tones like
Finder, except for folder icons.

Windows in OS X have 4 buttons, all different colors. Windows in Elementary
have 2 buttons, styled the same.

This may seem like a pedantic critique of your comment, but my point is that
it's clearly not a "carbon copy" of OS X. The statement "none of the effort
was done for design" is not a fair criticism of the Elementary development
team.

~~~
quadrangle
fwiw, KDE has features like dragging icons from one desktop to another.

------
clockwork_189
I like the fact that you can download for free...or you can choose your price
to download. It really helps us support you without you guys being too
intrusive on donations.

------
Radle
The video seriously says gaming? I don't believe there is a real game you can
play there, beside Minecraft. (For pretty obvious reasons)

Any one here who thinks or knows different?

~~~
venomsnake
My Steam acc has 42 linux games, also there are 20-30 more from humble bundles
... any platform on which you can play Psychonauts and Brutal Legend is good
enough for me.

------
sharjeel
All the support related links indexed by Google seem to be broken. e.g.
searching for "debian" in the search box and clicking any link leads to a 404
page.

------
oakaz
Payment screen is HORRIBLE. I spent 20 minutes on it. I use my debit card
anywhere else except this website saying me "you typed wrong address".

------
mtgx
If you're used to the Windows interface more, I'd recommend Zorin OS:

[http://zorin-os.com/](http://zorin-os.com/)

~~~
__xtrimsky
To be honest it doesn't look good.

I'm a windows user and like it. But I'm more likely to try elementary os then
zorin. zorin's theme looks like another bad linux theme. The start menu looks
ok, but that's pretty much it.

------
busterarm
I think this looks pretty cool. I'm going to give it a shot in a VM. Depending
on how this goes this may get installed on my non-Mac laptop.

------
buster
Unfortunately, as nice as it looks, the screens make me feel like "not going
to install that, looks like Mac".. :(

~~~
userulluipeste
...or, "why buy something when you can get it for free, freedom included?"

~~~
buster
Already using Debian here

------
bndr
Does your window manager support Dual-monitor setup? Like one workspace on one
monitor and another on the second monitor?

------
flamemyst
Elementary bring xubuntu alternative that beautiful but stay fast. Kudos for
elementary dev team!

------
knodi
Very cool, can't wait to use it. What good is its MacBook Air/Pro hardware
support?

------
Keyframe
Judging by video on their front page, this looks like an attempt to copy OSX
look and feel.

------
pdknsk
I have a question to the developers. If they like Mac OS X so much, why not
just use it, rather than clone? I don't understand it.

To make it slightly less obvious, they could've at least picked a different
desktop picture.

PS. I'm happy they chose Super Hexagon to show gaming.

~~~
computer
One reason might be that OS X is not Open Source nor Free.

------
n0on3
yes, right, the world definitely need another linux distro that fails at
pretending being even close to the reasons why people actually buy and use
Macs and PCs. Bah.

~~~
wellementary
Have you actually used it?

------
oakaz
Does it play mp3 and movies without requiring anything to do?

~~~
aymeric
Very valid question.

Every 6 years or so, I install a Linux just out of curiosity, to see the
progress it has made over the years.

Each time, I am disappointed some essential piece of hardware need a crazy
amount of compiling and googling before being able to use them (sound card,
microphone, etc...).

I will give this one a try.

~~~
hubtree
I had to go ahead and add ubuntu restricted extras from the software center,
but after that everything worked. I didn't have to add any drivers for this
distro to get sound, vid, mic, etc working properly. That's not surprising
because the last few Ubuntu releases have gotten a lot better at out of the
box hardware support. That's probably from Debian, but I don't actually know.

------
oakaz
And, why isn't it on Github?

~~~
aroman
GitHub doesn't come close to providing what we currently get from Launchpad:
[http://launchpad.net/elementary](http://launchpad.net/elementary).

To name a few things, translation support, integration with the ubuntu bug
tracker, PPA management, blueprinting system, and much more powerful bug
triaging.

~~~
munchor
Yo aroman, moving to GitHub has been discussed several times in the last
months, we even have a couple of projects there (www.github.com/elementary),
but besides all the reasons you named it's also proprietary software. Still, I
believe the biggest reason is translations and PPAs.

~~~
AsymetricCom
>it's also proprietary software.

ok thanks guys. Good luck with that.

~~~
aroman
...which means we can't set up our own instance of it or modify it work as we
need (as I outlined above, in its current form it only does a fraction of what
we would need it to).

Please don't superimpose your own views about software purity on our practical
realities.

------
elktea
Gnome 3 is much nicer.

------
abimaelmartell
ElementaryOSX Luna

------
mumbi
I would like to just say that I like OS X's design, why wouldn't you want to
copy it?

Edit: I noticed a lot of people saying Linux is, in fact, sexy, due to compiz
and what not. Linux looks like shit and always has, there is no elegance. I,
for one, have never been happy with the appearance of any Linux distro, even
if for some small thing that just bugs me. Compiz might let you do some
wigglying and having a box, but what Linux needs is polishing and that's what
it looks like Elementary is doing, so props to that.

------
mkramlich
The OS is Linux. That's not new. Appears they're offering yet another consumer
desktop GUI experience to choose from, however. But OS is not new.

------
workbench
1998-2003 Linux invests a ton of time imitating Windows Explorer and Outlook

2013-???? Linux invests a ton of time replicating OS X and iTunes

Why can they never just innovate themselves?

------
blogtechjav
OMG finally!!! waiting for years!!

