
How I Built a Barbecue Restaurant in Brooklyn: The Toll of Owning Your Business - ezl
http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/10/owning-your-own-restaurant-business.html
======
ezl
Posted because a lot of things in this rang true about founding tech companies
for me as well:

 _There 's a reason why big accomplishments always come with effusive thanks
to family and friends. It's not just about giving thanks—it's about publicly
apologizing to the people who've sacrificed so much so you can realize a
dream._

------
bredman
The one constant that seems to come up in all these founder stories is that
you better love what you're doing. There's no guarantee that your new business
will be successful or profitable but it seems inevitable you will sink nearly
all your time, energy, and money into it. You better be feel rewarded by the
journey because that's all you can count on.

~~~
weinzierl
That's true. The only founder story I can think of that doesn't fit into the
pattern is Scott Adams'.

    
    
        Here's the counterargument: When I was a commercial 
        loan officer for a large bank, my boss taught us that 
        you should never make a loan to someone who is 
        following his passion.
    
        [...] 
    
        My boss, who had been a commercial lender for over 30 
        years, said that the best loan customer is someone who 
        has no passion whatsoever, just a desire to work hard 
        at something that looks good on a spreadsheet.
    
        [...] 
    
        On the other hand, Dilbert started out as just one of 
        many get-rich schemes I was willing to try. When it 
        started to look as if it might be a success, my passion 
        for cartooning increased because I realized it could be 
        my golden ticket. 
    

[http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023046261045791...](http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304626104579121813075903866)

~~~
ezl
I actually side entirely with Scott Adams. I feel like it's a really cliche
and popular thing to say "Do what you love and success will follow", but it
seems like objectively bad advice to pick your profession based on your
passion.

We're all passionate about a lot of things that simply aren't commercially
viable.

I sell rental application software for a living. It's necessary, a part of the
industry, and not something I'm particularly _passionate_ about in subject
matter. I _AM_ passionate about doing the absolute best job by a mile and
providing the incontestably, incontrovertibly, unambiguously best option on
the market for our customers.

Almost EVERYTHING I do (and the awesome people on my team do) has nothing
specifically to do with rental application software. Rental application
software is just a widget that we sell that has commercial value and therefore
pays the bills.

What we do is: software delivery, customer service, operations, listening to
our customers, and a bunch of other stuff that is immediately translatable to
<any other widget>. But we do the absolute best in industry at those things.

So I'm not really passionate necessarily about "what I do" in the way people
thing (rental application software), but we're really passionate about "what I
do" in the way that I think of it (running the best damn business).

Rental application software is just this tiny, tiny, tiny kernel of a thing
makes it easy to classify what we do into an industry or subject bucket -- but
for what we deliver, what we think about, what we _REALLY DO_ , that tiny
kernel occupies less than 5% of our thoughts.

I have on more than one occasion heard founders (maybe in the process of
pitching for investment dollars) say things like:

> _" This is my life's work. I'm passionate about _____"_

Where ________ is something like:

    
    
        - accounting software
        - restaurant POS systems
        - online coupons
    

etc...

If they are saying that to convince someone you're all in on it, I get it.
I've pitched/sold before. And don't get me wrong, those are important things
for someone to do. It's just not really necessary or important to me that
those are things that the founder is deeply passionate about.

Yes, I would MUCH rather invest in someone who is truly passionate about that
boring thing. But:

1\. If it's true, that person is probably awful boring (or alternatively, I
have been blessed with really awesome and interesting friends!), and

2\. Coupling your financial future to the commercial viability of "what you're
passionate about" still strikes me as terrible advice, though admittedly feel-
good advice that resonates with a generation of people accustomed to excess
disposable income and who consequently have had the ability to pursue
passions.

~~~
enraged_camel
There's no one right answer. At the end of the day it is about perspective.
Specifically, Scott Adams' father was loan officer at a bank. Banks are fairly
conservative when it comes to giving loans. They want to see business plans
and analyze hard numbers before they commit money to entrepreneurs. So when
amateurs come to them asking for funding for an idea because "it is their
passion," of course the bank turns them down, for passion alone is
insufficient AND it has the risk of blinding someone to the reality of how
commercially viable the idea really is.

On the other hand, all other things being equal, someone being passionate
about basket weaving is more likely to make a successful business out of it
than someone who is in it just for the money. Passion can be a nearly
bottomless source of motivation, which helps people stick it out when things
get rough. After all, starting and running a business is like a roller-coaster
ride: one needs to endure the lows to enjoy the highs.

I think that could be a successful formula for co-founding teams: you need one
person who is deeply passionate about the topic and another whose main
strength is figuring out how to monetize it. That's how Apple became
successful.

~~~
weinzierl
Reading your comment (and rereading the article about Scott Adams) I came to
think that maybe the most successful people are those that can create a
passion matching the needs that exist at a certain time. This view fits well
with my personal experience.

Regarding Apple I always thought it was all about the tech in the beginning,
for both Steves. Only one of them developed a passion for business.

------
davidw
How do BBQ restaurants work? The two methods I can think of are: 1) you run
out when you run out and that's it for the day 2) you keep stuff warm. I'd
expect that to dry it out. I've heard some of the famous ones in the south use
method #1.

Real BBQ is smoking stuff at low temperatures (not too far from 100C) for a
long time - briskets can take 12+ hours or longer. So you can't just throw an
extra one on when the customer orders, it's basically got to be ready.

I think if I ever had a serious amount of disposable money, I'd open a BBQ
joint here in Italy.

~~~
TheBiv
I'm from the south and method #1 is done by almost every non-chain BBQ
restaurant. Method #2 is done by almost every chain BBQ restaurant.

Method #1 BY FAR produces the most fanfare.

Notable #1 is LA-Barbeque, and Franklin BBQ in Austin and the wait is
typically 2-5 hours and all of the BBQ is sold out before lunch.

~~~
davidw
I was really blown away to discover just how regional barbecue is - from a
book by an economist of all things:

[http://www.amazon.com/Economist-Gets-Lunch-Everyday-
Foodies-...](http://www.amazon.com/Economist-Gets-Lunch-Everyday-Foodies-
ebook/dp/B005GSYYQ2?tag=dedasys-20)

Where I'm from in Oregon, there are a few places, but they're few and far
between, and I doubt the quality measures up to areas where there is more
knowledge and competition between establishments. Indeed, I have to admit to
having had absolutely no clue about real barbecue growing up.

I think it's pretty cool that it's such a local thing, in an age when so much
of life is so homogeneous in the US.

~~~
jeffreyrogers
Just wanted to comment to say that the book you mentioned is great, as are
most of the other things that economist, Tyler Cowen, has written. He and a
colleague have a blog,
[http://marginalrevolution.com/](http://marginalrevolution.com/), that many HN
readers will probably enjoy.

------
NaOH
I’ve worked in the food industry for quite a while, 16 years I think, often in
kitchens but sometimes in other areas. About 20 months ago I launched my own
food business. I’m the only employee. The few products I sell should be served
fresh, so I go to the kitchen 364 days a year to prepare and deliver fresh
goods. In some ways I can relate to Tyson Ho, in others I can’t, the
difference being only how our work is similar or divergent.

He’s had much more attention than I’ve had. I’m not certain what he did to
garner it, but I’ve worked hard to fly under the radar. From following the
tech industry (and others) for many years, I’ve made it a point to not grow
too fast, to avoid taking on more than is possible, physically or
economically. I’d rather under-promise and then over-deliver. Or, as is often
discussed in places like HN, I want to manage customers’ expectations.

One result is that I’ve done no marketing beyond some occasional use of
Twitter. I don’t even have a website yet. In fact, I haven’t solicited one
customer. Speaking to one person in food retail led to that person carrying my
products when I launched, and every customer since has come by word of mouth.
Since I only wholesale, my customers are not the people ultimately buying my
products for consumption. So I do everything to keep my customers happy, word
gradually spreads about my products, and other retailers find their way to me.

Still, I can understand the tight economics Mr. Ho describes. I was profitable
within weeks of launching, but I’m not rolling in money by any stretch. I’d
hate to know what I make on an hourly basis. But I don’t know because it’s not
one of the measures I use for gauging whether this is succeeding. I measure
myself by my performance in the kitchen —things like punctuality, product
quality, sanitation. I measure customer service by my customers' satisfaction
with how I handle their needs. And I measure the bottom line simply by whether
or not the bank balance is going up.

He discussed balancing work with other aspects of life. I’m content with how
I’ve done there. Mind you, I’m single and childless, so it’s not fair to
compare me to him. But I’ve maintained some social life (that was never too
big for me), and I’ve continued the long-distance friendships I’ve long been
part of.

All told, I’ve never understood why people get into this industry. It’s
physically brutal, mentally endless, hard to make decent money, and customer
expectations are brutal. On that last one, I’ll note that every industry has
its odd customer expectations, but food is one of the oddest I’ve ever
noticed. Example: You have a date with your significant other. The restaurant
darn well better seat the two of you within minutes of your reservation time.
In contrast, the doctor’s office has a waiting room you’re likely to sit in no
matter how punctual you are. Another example: Unless something sells out from
popularity, food customers usually don’t tolerate things being unavailable.
“I’m sorry, there’s no bread for the table because the oven broke” isn’t
something you hear, and that’s because customers, and in turn restaurant
owners, won’t tolerate it.

The best description I’ve ever heard about restaurant life is that it’s like
working in an emergency room but without the life and death. But you can bet
anyone worth their salt in a kitchen treats it like like and death. Still, I
enjoy what I do and find both the work and customer service rewarding. I don’t
blame anyone for trying this industry and fleeing it as fast as possible. And
since it sounds like Mr. Ho is doing good work, I certainly hope he’s able to
make his business work.

~~~
imaginenore
You need to scale your business up.

Whatever thing you're selling, it's obviously good, and people like and want
it.

I don't know if you care for my advice, but that's what I would start with:

* Website, a very simple one where one can order your stuff, wholesale and small amounts (priced differently). This kind of thing doesn't require any coding these days.

* Automate as much as you can.

* Make sure you learn how much you make per hour, because this will pay for the salary of the person doing what you're doing.

* It sounds like you're close to being maxed out, and your only options are A) Raise prices B) Expand. I would try both.

* When you know how much you can pay, start expanding. Hire people, one at a time.

~~~
dmd
Not everyone measures the success of their business by its size.

~~~
imaginenore
It's not about the size. It's about making more money and working less (or
almost not at all)

~~~
alilja
Not everyone measures success by money and leisure time. Especially in more
creatively-derived industries, like culinary arts, I find that money has
little to do with what people judge as success. Many simply want to make the
best food they can.

~~~
Ecio78
It's true what you are saying (not everyone..) but I am not sure that there's
so much creativity in 99% of the food industry. Take NaOH, he makes pretzels,
using a very good recipe that he probably doesn't want to change, how much
innovation can he put in that? Please note that I'm not critizing or bashing
his work,not at all, I've upvoted his posts because I found them very
interesting, it's just that I think that when you move to "professional" food
production, at some point what you are asked is delivering with consistency,
and you have less space for being creative. I like cooking, I am not bad at
it, and when I moved to this country (Luxembourg, coming from Italy) I was
unemployed and so I was joking with friends saying things like "if I don't
find a job I could open a restaurant" but of course it was just a joke, first
of all because you should really have worked in that sector before starting to
do something on your own, and second because one thing is cooking a good
Risotto for your family once a week, another thing is doing it for 10 tables
every single day...I think it can become quite repetitive and not enjoyable

~~~
NaOH
On the food side, I agree with you about there not being much room for
creativity in my setup. I'm comfortable with that. I like it, even, since
coming up with new items or menus was never a part of the work I particularly
enjoyed. Plus, that work complicates ordering and increases the risk of food
waste. Sure, I do some of that, but not much and not on a regular basis.

Yet there is plenty of room for creativity. I focus on trying to bring that to
customer service. I've worked diligently to make it so that all my customers
know I will do whatever I possibly can to help them, pretzel-related or
otherwise. Some things are across the board, like not requiring specific lead
times for orders (in this field it can be up to 48 hours). Others are
customer-specific, like getting an order at 9:15AM and delivering it by 11AM
(fresh-baked goods, remember), or doing dishes for three hours because I've
got time and my customer's dishwasher decided to no-show, or bringing a
customer a giant 5-pound pretzel to help that group of people celebrate its
first anniversary of being open.

All of that contributes to my business doing okay despite the lack of
marketing on my part. People rave about the products I make, and the
businesses to whom I sell are comfortable recommending me to other businesses.
I mean, we all know word of mouth is the best marketing—not just for its low
cost but mostly for the weight it carries—and since I’m a wholesaler my best
opportunity for generating word of mouth is through customer service for the
businesses buying from me. That’s an area where there’s always room for
creativity since circumstances and the people involved provide diverse
opportunities for me to respond well.

------
stevewillows
A quote from a David Sedaris article [1] sums it up nicely through a
conversation he had with an entrepreneur who was intending to retire at 55.

> "One burner represents your family, one is your friends, the third is your
> health, and the fourth is your work." The gist, she said, was that in order
> to be successful you have to cut off one of your burners. And in order to be
> really successful you have to cut off two.

[1] [http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/08/24/laugh-
kookaburr...](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/08/24/laugh-kookaburra)

~~~
yoshizar
This is a really interesting idea. I wonder if there's anyone who's been
extremely successful in their work who would object to it.

My instinct is that if you're smart about your time investments, you can get
pretty far on most those burners without out a lot of time invested.

For example, for me, health is a non-negotiable. But I can maintain it with
only 4-5 hours a week of investment vs. 0 hours if I abandon it. I just have 3
rules: get enough sleep, eat only healthy things, exercise at least once a
week.

If you are running your own company and you can't sleep enough, I think you
are either not prioritizing it or you're doing something wrong. You're
unsustainably stressed or not managing your company's execution well enough.
Not enough sleep affects your performance and ability to think as much as your
health, so I really don't see any benefit to being chronically sleep deprived.

Eating healthy doesn't take much more time than eating unhealthy. It means
buying groceries, and knowing what's open around you that's cheap and healthy
(Most Chinese take-out vegetable stir fry is a good option). The groceries
come from Amazon Fresh, and mean 2-3 hours more per week cooking than you
would if you got fast food.

And exercise takes no more than 2 hours a week. The goal here is not to be
athletic, it's just to be healthy.

I think that whatever your main burner is, you can usually maintain the other
burners adequately with 4-5 hours per week, and no more unless something
unusual is going on.

The key word here is adequate - it's not the main dimension of your success,
and you may just be ok at it. But I don't think you need to fail at it in
order to succeed at the thing you're focusing on.

And if you can hit adequacy, you still have more than enough time for your
main burner. If other burners combined take 15 hours per week, you very likely
still have at least 80 hours a week left for your main focus.

The specific numbers I hypothesize here applies only if you don't have kids,
which I imagine skews your family number significantly.

------
venomsnake
A little side question - I love Serious Eats but after their last redesign
there is no paging. So you just cannot browse to a certain point in time and
then continue from there.

Am I missing something obvious?

~~~
nkurz
I don't think you are missing anything, but it's interesting how different
people have different ways of using the web.

I don't think I've ever wanted a web page to be split into pages, and I've
always presumed it's done only to have more spaces for ad placement. I always
go out of my way to submit links to a single page version, and although I've
sometimes worried this might be depriving the destination site of revenue,
I've never really considered that readers might prefer a paginated version.

If I wanted to continue reading something after a pause, I'd leave the page
open in a tab (or more commonly, separate window), keeping it scrolled to the
position I stopped reading. If I had to reopen it again, I'd scroll quickly
through with the trackpad or space bar until I saw something unfamiliar, much
in the way that I would visually scan to find my place in a magazine article.

How do you use the pagination to help you continue? By remembering the page
number and clicking on it, by bookmarking the link to a specific page, or
something else?

Edit to clarify: I agree with 'zipperg' below, and I'm not suggesting that
infinite scroll is anything other than a usability nightmare. Instead, I'm
expressing my strong preference for true-single page articles such as this one
over both pagination and automated loading. Unless I'm the one missing
something and this page is autoloading the main content so well that I'm not
bothered by it? (I'm less dogmatic about user comments --- hiding them can
often be a good thing)

~~~
zippergz
I hate it when individual articles are broken into pages for no good reason,
but I like pagination for main/index pages.

The biggest problem I've had with this kind of scrolling is when something
happens that makes the next "page" fail to load for whatever reason. Usually
the only thing that can be done in that case is to reload the whole thing, and
then tediously scroll back to where you were. It's gotten better in recent
implementations, but it still happens from time to time.

It's also annoying when I need to catch up after a long time away (or if it's
a site I haven't read before). Depending on the site and what else I have
going on at the time, I might read a given site over the course of days or
weeks. I do usually leave the tab or window open, but sometimes it gets closed
or reloaded for one reason or another. And again, as you say, you can scroll
to the first unfamiliar thing, but when it's the equivalent of 10 or 20 pages
back, that's a pain. And it's even worse when the "it won't load anymore"
problem happens.

It's a usability tradeoff, but I have had many more frustrating experiences
with infinite scrolling over the past few years than I ever had with paginated
indices in the 20+ years I've been using the web.

------
gozmike
I met Tyson a few weeks ago at Arrogant Swine after the Brooklyn iOS Meetup.

I have to say, from what I saw that night at his restaurant I'm fairly certain
he's stumbled upon a formula that is going to work quite well. The place was
jam packed, food was delicious and I'm still telling people about the meal and
ambiance.

If you're in NYC, definitely go check it out.

------
abbott
Drove back from Brooklyn last night after celebrating my friend's 40th at
Arrogant Swine, and then I wake up to see this on hacker news. Crazy.

This restuarant appears out of nowhere in Bushwick/warehouse district. Being a
North Carolina native I was a huge skeptic walking in. Mr. Ho has an NC (and
SC) flag on the wall, usually not a symbol of pride outside the state (even
for me), but in the case of BBQ it's respectable and makes a statement to
anyone who know's anything about pulled-pork BBQ.

If you're ever in Brooklyn, definitely check it out. There's something to be
said about eating, drinking, and enjoying the vision of an entrepreneur.
Impossible to do with your stereotypcial start-up.

~~~
chiph
I do miss the NC BBQ. I used to eat at Cooper's in downtown Raleigh -- which
is in the process of moving to a new location I hear. A developer bought the
block and is putting up a tall building -- no room for a business started in
the 1930s there.

The best hushpuppies I ever had though, were at Bubba's in Charlotte. Ralph
would make his dough in batches, and if you caught it at the end of the batch,
the onions had had time to steep in the batter, and they were so good.

------
zachwill
Great post, OP. I really love stories like this on HN — feel like I wouldn't
come across them through other channels. Thanks for sharing.

------
SixSigma
On the subject of 11lb babies, more and more babies are being born _already
obese_

[http://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/big-baby-boom-
supe...](http://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/big-baby-boom-supersize-
deliveries-have-doctors-worried-f6C10921987)

------
joshu
It kills me that restaurants add all the value to the area but lose almost all
of it to rent.

I wish I could design a town or something. Big tax break to landlords who
house good restaurante long-term or or otherwise allow the restaurant to be
profitable. Or maybe the town owns the town center or something.

~~~
waterlesscloud
Or the restaurant owns the building.

Yeah, maybe not practical in SF, but elsewhere it works well.

~~~
RockyMcNuts
Or long-term lease.

Typically NY situation is, up-and-coming restaurateur opens in a crappy
underutilized space, takes a long-term e.g. 7-year lease. Lease is up, every
established restaurateur and dilettante thinks they can make a fortune there,
rent rises to where nobody can make much of a buck, often new restaurant
closes shortly after.

I don't know why there are so many freaking banks, New Yorkers refuse to walk
and are worth money to banks. But a restaurant is a huge pain in the ass to a
landlord compared to a bank.

~~~
waterlesscloud
I wonder what the effects would be of cities requiring a long term lease to
get a restaurant permit? Would landlords just not go along and we'd see fewer
restaurants? Maybe, but it could be an interesting experiment to find out.

------
eriktrautman
I really enjoy reading about the trials of entrepreneurs outside The Bubble on
HN and this was a great piece of writing. The vignette about the dirt-loving
sniper sucked me in.

------
kmttechnical
An amazing story! Thanks for sharing so much of yourself! Best to you.

Angie

------
kevinqi
It's a bit windy, and there wasn't too much in the way of "how", but the story
was well written - so a good read regardless.

