
Homeopathic remedies recalled for containing real medicine - lukashed
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-03/25/homeopathy-contains-medicine
======
chrisbennet
Whenever I hear about homeopathy I think of this wonder rant ("Storm") by Tim
Minchin :
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U)

~~~
pron
Nice and true, obviously. But I do think that hard-sciences folks, when it
comes to this very issue, sometimes refuse to understand what it is that
they're seeing; worse - they refuse to examine it. It's understandable as
unscientific views are infuriatingly ignorant, but that's no justification!

Why is it that in an age of science and technology and their palpable,
measurable advantages, do so many people intentionally choose to "hate on"
science? What is it that's missing, at least for them?

As an imperfect product of nature, rather than perfect observers of it, we are
subject to illusions and delusions, that from a phenomenological perspective
are as real to us (or as important to us) as gravity. People have the ability
to never consider walking out the window but to believe in astrology at the
same time, and that's probably not going to change. And yes, people are going
to die as a result of intentional ignorance, but people die of many things,
many of them are just as stupid.

Instead of constantly trying to fight this, I've been trying to open myself to
these views, not because of any physical reality they possess (as they possess
absolutely none), but because of their phenomenological reality, and what they
teach us of human nature.

~~~
greggman
Maybe I'm mis-understanding your point but the issue isn't just about
"phenomenological reality". It's about real harm
[http://whatstheharm.net/](http://whatstheharm.net/)

~~~
wdewind
Thought I agree with the message, this site is terrible. It essentially
collects anecdotes and treats them as data. You could do the exact same thing
with "real" medicine as well (so and so died during this operation, so we
shouldn't do it anymore? no.).

------
eponeponepon
This really ought to be hilarious; but then you realise that they're talking
about _penicillin_. If one batch of one type of snakeoil distributed by one
pack of charlatans has turned out to contain an antibiotic, how many others do
too? And how many people out there are merrily munching down a couple of
homeopathic sugar-pills when their piles flare up and making amazing new
antibiotic-resistant bacterial strains?

Homeopathy is _actively_ harmful.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
Unintentionally taking penicillin can be quite bad: some people are allergic
to it.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin_drug_reaction](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin_drug_reaction)

~~~
eponeponepon
Sure, but that can happen to an individual with any substance - I might take
any given medicine that I haven't had before and turn out to be viciously
allergic. But if I take a homeopathic 'remedy' that contains an antibiotic
previously usable to treat, say, E. coli, and have no _noticeable_ reaction to
it, then I just silently create a new strain of E. coli in my gut that happens
to now be immune to the antibiotic, just itching to be caught by someone else
when I forget to scrub my hands thoroughly... nothing bad happens to the
individual, but the species suffers for my gullibility.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
> Sure, but that can happen to an individual with any substance

It's particularly common with penicillin. This is why people who are allergic
to penicillin know about it and check their medication so that they don't get
some accidentally.

This is IMHO probably the reason for this recall: it is an immediate danger to
a significant number of people. Sadly increased antibiotic immunity in the
environment is not viewed with the same level of concern as a sudden medical
crisis that causes next of kin to sue.

------
ama729
That's something I don't understand, how can homeopathic remedies even be
sold? The manufacturer can't prove the health benefits they claim and the
product don't contain the element on the bottle.

It's just complete nonsense.

~~~
Ygg2
Actually no, homeopathic contains minute traces of cause of disease...

Basically if you are hit by a blue car, they need a homeopathic traces of blue
color to 'cure' you.

~~~
blueskin_
Not really. Most homeopathic placebos are diluted to the point that you'd need
to take anywhere from billions of doses up to get even a single molecule of
the 'ingredient'. They are literally just water. Not ot mention that in most
cases, the 'cause' is based on a speculative or outright fictional 'link'. For
example, one of the most well known placebos is Oscillococcinum, which claims
duck liver/heart 'causes' flu. It is also diluted to the point that, to quote,
"As there are only about 10^80 atoms in the entire observable universe, a
dilution of one molecule in the observable universe would be about 40C.
Oscillococcinum would thus require 10^320 more universes to simply have one
molecule in the final substance."

~~~
ekianjo
> They are literally just water.

Usually they are sold as granules, containing some form of sugar... to capture
the magical water :) So technically it's sugar+water that you ingest.

~~~
agumonkey
I took some homeopathic 'marbles' as a kid. Probably the best placebo ever
designed. The only pill I'd never forget to take. While everything else is
sour and alien in taste, this instead, is a doctor approved crunchy candy.

Icing on the cake, the dispenser [http://goo.gl/xsT3IM](http://goo.gl/xsT3IM)
would be vetted by Steve Jobs, cute squary bottle, press the cap to fill it
with a dose, open, ingest, close. Genius ?

------
Ihmahr
I just keep being amazed that literate people buy this stuff. What also bugs
me about this (apart from their stupidity) is that people look at me strangely
when I decline 'medicine' on the basis that it is homeopathic. The reaction is
similar when someone is refusing to drink alcohol. "Really, why not?"

~~~
seren
I don't believe homeopathy works. However, I have seen studies mentioning that
a placebo effect (which has a real measurable impact) can be triggered just by
knowing you are taking a remedy, even if you know the remedy is bogus. So
somehow, you are tricking yourself that you are going to get better. So in a
way, you could get better by taking homeopathy even if it has nothing to do
with what is (or rather is not!) in the pills.

I don't see much harm in taking homeopathy for a common cold for example,
however for anything more serious, you are probably endangering yourself.

~~~
driverdan
Placebos can change your attitude but cannot cure anything. You may _feel_
better but in reality nothing has changed other than the feeling.

~~~
brazzy
Ultimately, the goal of _any_ cure is to make you feel better. And there is
lots of evidence that psychology can have very powerful effects on your body.

~~~
stan_rogers
Indeed. Even if we dispose of any debatable improvements in recovery from
various illnesses that may be caused by reducing stress, etc., that still
leaves the rather broad category of physical ailments that are largely
psychosomatic (that is, the physical distress, though very real, arises as a
result of or is greatly exacerbated by mental state). That being said, the
purely psychological effect needs to be used responsibly, scientifically (that
is, the patient needs to be monitored on the basis of more than just feeling)
and in conjunction with real medicine - the peddling of woo-woo on its own by
people who are essentially answerable to no-one and who believe in the woo-woo
(or at least disbelieve in or pathologically distrust scientific medicine) is
dangerous and deadly, and it's just about time to put a permanent stop to it.

------
MicroBerto
When building our site/engine, I struggled with what to do with product
categories such as Homeopathy.

I find that much of it is _actively_ harmful to users, especially when they
truly need real medical care. It's the _indirect_ consequences (not seeing a
real doctor for your ailments) that are far worse than the potential direct
side effects.

But at the same time, people are searching for it, so they might as well get
it from us / through us.

So my solution was to write a negative analysis of the homeopathy category,
drop it so that it can only be found if you are actively searching for it, and
kind of never speak of it again.

Won't spam, but you can see the link to my site in my profile if you care and
search for the category.

At the end of the day, I do love the supplement/nutrition industry, but this
kind of stuff makes my blood boil.

~~~
aestra
>I do love the supplement/nutrition industry

Why? It is almost entirely unregulated and unsupervised. They have been known
to contain unlisted ingredients, none of the ingredients they say, and dosages
that differ wildly from what they are labeled as. I saw a movie where they
just put some random shit into a pill (flour and stuff) and started marketing
it as a supplement. This was apparently legal.

[http://www.livescience.com/40357-herbal-products-unlisted-
in...](http://www.livescience.com/40357-herbal-products-unlisted-
ingredient.html)

> In the study, nearly 60 percent of herbal products tested contained plant
> substances not listed on the label. In nearly a third of products, the main
> ingredient was substituted with a different product. More than 20 percent of
> products contained fillers such as rice, wheat and soybeans, in addition to
> the main ingredient.

>Overall, out of the 12 companies that produce herbal supplements included in
the study, just two had products with no substitutions, fillers or
contaminants, the researchers said

> Such unlisted ingredients may pose health hazards for consumers, the
> researchers said. For example, one produced was labeled as St. John's wort,
> but actually contained the laxative plant Senna alexandrina. The laxative is
> not recommended for long turn use, and can cause serious side effects, such
> as chronic diarrhea and liver damage.

> 2011 study of 131 herbal tea products found that 33 percent were
> contaminated.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/health/policy/26herbal.htm...](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/health/policy/26herbal.html)

>Nearly all of the herbal dietary supplements tested in a Congressional
investigation contained trace amounts of lead and other contaminants

>The levels of heavy metals — including mercury, cadmium and arsenic — did not
exceed thresholds considered dangerous, the investigators found. However, 16
of the 40 supplements tested contained pesticide residues that appeared to
exceed legal limits, the investigators found. In some cases, the government
has not set allowable levels of these pesticides because of a paucity of
scientific research.

> Among the witnesses at the hearing will be Dr. Tod Cooperman, president of
> ConsumerLab.com, a company that has tested over 2,000 dietary supplements
> made by more than 300 manufacturers and has found that one in four have
> quality problems. According to Dr. Cooperman’s written testimony, the most
> common problems are supplements that lack adequate quantities of the
> indicated ingredients and those contaminated with heavy metals.

> Travis T. Tygart, chief executive of the United States Anti-Doping Agency,
> wrote a letter to the committee saying that some athletes have been rendered
> ineligible for international competitions because they took supplements that
> contained steroids not listed on the products’ labels. There are thousands
> of supplements available for sale that contain steroids or other harmful
> ingredients, he wrote.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852683/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852683/)

>Case Presentation

> A 54-year-old woman was referred to the University of California, Davis,
> Occupational Medicine Clinic with a 2-year history of worsening alopecia and
> memory loss. She also reported having a rash, increasing fatigue, nausea,
> and vomiting, disabling her to the point where she could no longer work
> full-time. A thorough exposure history revealed that she took daily kelp
> supplements. A urine sample showed an arsenic level of 83.6 μg/g creatinine
> (normal < 50 μg/g creatinine). A sample from her kelp supplements contained
> 8.5 mg/kg (ppm) arsenic. Within weeks of discontinuing the supplements, her
> symptoms resolved and arsenic blood and urine levels were undetectable.

[http://www.researchgate.net/publication/5292535_Nutritional_...](http://www.researchgate.net/publication/5292535_Nutritional_supplements_cross-
contaminated_and_faked_with_doping_substances/file/3deec52274312178fb.pdf)

>These investigations showed that nutritional supplements contained prohibited
stimulants as ephedrines, caffeine, methylenedioxymetamphetamie and
sibutramine, which were not declared on the labels. An international study
performed in 2001 and 2002 on 634 nutritional supplements that were purchased
in 13 different countries showed that about 15% of the nonhormonal nutritional
supplements were contaminated with anabolic-androgenic steroids (mainly
prohormones).

>In 2005 vitamin C, multivitamin and magnesium tablets were confiscated, which
contained crosscontaminations of stanozolol and metandienone. Since 2002 new
‘designer’ steroids such as prostanozol, methasterone, androstatrienedione
etc. have been offered on the nutritional supplement market. In the near
future also cross-contaminations with these steroids are expected. Recently a
nutritional supplement for weight loss was found to contain the b2-agonist
clenbuterol. The application of such nutritional supplements is connected with
a high risk of inadvertent doping cases and a health risk.

This actually worries me a lot, since I am required to take an iron supplement
because of chronic iron deficiency. If I get the tablets from the pharmacist
(I have a prescription) they just repackage the over the counter stuff and
charge me triple the price. There's no way to tell if I'm getting medical
grade iron.

------
BuildTheRobots
To everyone commenting on the insanity of homeopathy and how it has no
scientific basis (which I don't believe it does), I'd point out that surely
it's just a form of placebo -and placebos have been scientifically proven to
work, even when you know about them [1].

[1]
[http://www.ted.com/talks/eric_mead_the_magic_of_the_placebo](http://www.ted.com/talks/eric_mead_the_magic_of_the_placebo)

~~~
rmc
Ah, but homoepathic proponants claim it works better than a placebo.

~~~
BuildTheRobots
Interesting, different placebos have different effects. Injections are seen as
'better' than pills and have more of an effect.

If you believe homoeopathy is better than medicine, then yes, I can see it
holding more authority than a prescription.

------
userbinator
I see this happen once in a while, and I've always believed that this is how
they can keep the whole scam running - put some _real_ medicine in them, so
that it does have a beneficial effect, and the users will continue to preach
about its efficacy. Add just enough to have a real effect, but e.g. not to all
batches, so you don't (easily) get caught.

------
aestra
Not the first time this has happened. Zicam was marketed as homeopathy, but
recalled because it had real active ingredients in it. (slightly diluted zinc
acetate and zinc gluconate) They caused some people to lose their sense of
smell.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zicam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zicam)

~~~
DanBC
Did you read the article before commenting?

~~~
aestra
Yes, I actually did read it, but I seemed to have a brain fart and didn't
actually notice it mentioned Zicam. Or I most likely just didn't retain the
information.

I must be getting old.

------
MattBearman
I was really expecting this to the on The Onion...

~~~
Ygg2
At first I thought it was early April fools.

------
faster
Did you hear about the homeopathic terrorists? They put nothing in the water
supply.

------
cfontes
I had an old math professor that used to say:

"Lottery is a special tax aimed at people who are really bad in math"

I guess Homeopathy is a tax (health and money one) for people who are really
bad in Chemistry and Biology.

~~~
Sniperfish
Unfortunately - given the OP article - through misuse of antibiotics the
consumer of homeopathic treatments is playing lottery with more than just
their health. A lottery where the losers also cause society to lose.

"Antimicrobial resistance (AMR) is resistance of a microorganism to an
antimicrobial medicine to which it was originally sensitive....The misuse of
antimicrobial medicines accelerates this natural phenomenon."[1]

[1]
[http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs194/en/](http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs194/en/)

------
singularityyy
Does anyone know why homoeopathic remedies are so common in India? Even my
very educated Indian friends seem to use them with a surprising frequency,
sometimes over actual medicines.

~~~
yen223
"This medicine is effective because it contains salicylic acid, which
suppresses the activity of cyclooxygenase (COX), an enzyme that is responsible
for the production of pro-inflammatory mediators."

versus

"This plant is effective because it's 100% natural!"

7 out of 10 times, people will go for the explanation that's easier to
understand.

~~~
aestra
Salicylic acid is natural! It comes from the bark of the willow tree. It has
been known since ancient times, presumably they used to consume willow bark.
We then figured out the active ingredient in willow bark. However, asprin is
acetylsalicylic acid, which is produced form salicylic acid to remove the side
effects of salicylic acid.

~~~
yen223
I didn't choose that example by accident ;).

If I didn't know better, "salicylic acid" sounds like one of those chemicals
that scientists keep putting in our food as part of their ongoing efforts to
KILL ALL OF US, while "willow bark" sounds oh-so-natural and wholesome and
makes me think of green meadows and chirping birds. So despite the fact that
we know aspirin is a lot more effective than willow bark, I'd still feel a lot
more comfortable eating willow bark. If I didn't know better.

Basically, evidence-based medicine faces a big marketing problem, thanks to
the "evidence" part.

------
Argorak
I am waiting for the moment where those people realize that a lot of food
contains salicylates, acetylsalicylic acid (Aspirin) among them. Just by habit
of nature.

I lived with a person that had an intolerance (sometimes called "asprine
intolerance") and it is basically impossible to keep your diet free from
that.[1]

[1]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylate_intolerance#Treatmen...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylate_intolerance#Treatment)

~~~
rmc
Penicillin allergy is different. It's not just "oh I feel a bit unwell for a
few days", it's fatal. And penicillin is not a common substance.

~~~
Argorak
Not questioning that, but it questions the idea of not taking any medications
at all. Where do you make the cut?

~~~
rmc
I don't understand the question. I am allergic to penicillin. I just tell the
doctor when they are perscribing antibiotics. I can still take medication.

Some substances, due to their large adverse reactions in some, can and are
restricted.

------
k-mcgrady
I just skimmed the article but I didn't see any mention that the company was
being punished for this. As someone allergic to penicillin that's quite
concerning. I'd never take homeopathic remedies but not only was this a stupid
abuse of antibiotics it could hurt people.

~~~
aestra
The article doesn't say directly, but it could have been accidental, just like
the discovery of penicillin.

>produced during fermentation

That's what it says, that seems to imply to me that it was accidental.

------
noja
Why do so many homeopathic remedies contain ingredients? I mean they have
multiple things listed on the label that are actual things. Doesn't that make
them not homeopathic?

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
> Why do so many homeopathic remedies contain ingredients?

To bulk out the pill until it is visible to the naked eye.

~~~
noja
But these ingredients aren't bulkers. I'll collect some examples next time I
see some.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
But "listed on the label" is not the same as "contained in the pill" when it
comes to homoeopathy. Could you also check how much of the active ingredient
is actually present in the pill? ;)

~~~
noja
Well the ingredient listed is black, and the pill (actually it was a liquid)
was pitch black.

------
jacquesm
I have this vague sense of unease about this...

~~~
dhimes
Here, have some water.

------
speeder
The article ends as a crazy agressive criticism of homeopathy in general,
mixing the issues of manufacturing that also happen to normal medicine with
real concerns and conflating the two, but what really ticks me off is leaving
in the closing paragraph a phrase that use age of a practice as an insult.

Saying that something should have been left in some old era implies that
people of that era are inferior to us, the fact that all past eras are
targeted, make me think there is some sort of superiority thinking tied to
being in the current age, like if current humans are inherently better.

As someone that has some practices and beliefs that were actually more common
in the past, I personally hear that sort of argument a lot, and I think lots
people don't realize that when they diss the past, they also diss lots of
things important to them ( like, printing press... Created to print the bible
no less... )

EDIT: alright, I get it, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, criticising the
writing style of someone criticising something you dislike, even if I dislike
it too, is reason to get blasted with downvotes.

~~~
JohnTHaller
Unlike some natural remedies which are later proven to be right based
thousands of years of use in ancient times, Homeopathy is completely and
totally bogus. It's based on absolutely nothing. Not science, not observation,
not tradition. It's based entirely on one guy, who, in ~1800, thought that
'like cures like'. So, if you have a fever, why not take something else that
causes you to get hot? It's also based on the idea that water has a memory of
things it comes in contact with. So, they dilute it thousands and thousands of
times until the water or sugar pill has no molecules at all of the thing that
is supposed to be treating you. In the end, it's a sugar pill that has a
placebo effect on some people. There's no logic, science, or medicine to it at
all.

Pro tip: If water really did have a memory and diluting things made them
stronger, then all water everywhere would cure everything. Including terrorism
since Bin Laden was buried at sea.

~~~
speeder
I don't disagree with that, I disagree with how the article was written, I am
not defending homeopathy, I am among other things criticizing for example the
conflating of the issues you mentioned with manufacturing issues that also
happen with normal medicine.

