
Burger Robot Startup Opens First Restaurant - beefman
https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/21/creator-hamburger-robot/
======
MatekCopatek
Technical feasability aside, I really cringed when the founder started talking
about how this gives their employees time to do more meaningful things, like
reading books.

Just face it - you're automating a job. If your company succeeds, more people
will become unemployed. That's not to say you shouldn't do it, but call it
what it is and take responsibility.

~~~
asfasgasg
Unemployment is really low right now, and burger flipping is just about the
least desirable type of work available. This has been said countless times,
but it's worth noting that although there are very few blacksmiths or peat
cutters today, somehow we are still pretty close to full employment.

~~~
ta1234567890
Employment stats are very misleading. There are lots of people with full time
jobs who can't even afford housing. Sure they have jobs, but they are still in
a really bad situation.

~~~
asfasgasg
I am not commenting on the well-being of people working in fast food. Just on
the availability of work. Whether such individuals can afford housing is
totally beside the point of my comment.

~~~
ende
Unemployment numbers also aren’t low because the economy is producing tons of
new jobs; notice the record numbers of homeless on the streets? It’s the labor
participation rate. People are only counted towards unemployment stats while
they are actively seeking employment; after awhile they give up and drop out
of the labor force completely.

Of course much of that drop is also demographics; the baby boomers are
starting to retire en masse.

Still, the illusion of job abundance does not hold.

~~~
adventured
> Unemployment numbers also aren’t low because the economy is producing tons
> of new jobs

In fact the unemployment rate is low because the economy has produced an
extraordinarily vast number of jobs. In May alone the US economy nearly
produced a million new full-time jobs (solidly contracting the part-time
count). The full-time job count is at an all-time record high. The US economy
has produced 14 million full-time jobs in just the last six years. [1] And the
median full-time income in the US is about $50,000, among the highest on
earth.

> notice the record numbers of homeless on the streets?

The US homeless rate per capita has plunged dramatically and is at an all-time
record low. [2] You're entirely fabricating your claims, both about jobs and
homelessness.

The total homeless count has declined by roughly 27% in just 13 years. From
~760,000 in 2005, to less than 550,000 for 2018. The US added about 10% to its
population over that time simultaneously.

How is that possible? Everyone knows the US sucks and has no safety net or
support systems. Except, that's a lie. The US welfare state is now more
generous than either the Canadian or Australian welfare states. [3]

[1]
[https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS12500000](https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS12500000)

[2] [https://endhomelessness.org/homelessness-in-
america/homeless...](https://endhomelessness.org/homelessness-in-
america/homelessness-statistics/state-of-homelessness-report/)

[3] [https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-05-16/the-u-
s-s...](https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-05-16/the-u-s-social-
safety-net-has-improved-a-lot)

~~~
woolvalley
He may live in the bay area, where homeless has definitely increased, and the
dynamic of jobs not paying enough to make rent is a real dynamic.

------
Someone1234
If I were looking to invest in one of those, the biggest questions I'd have
are around reliability, cleaning routines, and maintenance. For example I
could pay minimum wage for someone to cut veggies, or pay significantly more
for an engineer to repair the unit because it isn't dispensing tomato right.

Their demo unit is very fun, and adds to the gimmick, but like most industrial
equipment ease of access is more important than appearances. I'd hate to have
to take apart what they demoed for routine cleaning.

And while it is laudable that they're taking the savings and using them on
better ingredients, that only lasts until a competitor appears who is going to
just lower the price (e.g. "50c burgers here!").

~~~
greedo
If I were looking to invest, I wouldn't give a crap about reliability,
cleaning, and maintenance. I'd want to see his business plan, and how he
thinks he's going to make money when the highest amount of revenue this thing
can produce is $72/hour, when it runs flawlessly.

~~~
imtringued
$72/hour * 160hours/month * 12months/year = $138240/year

On top of that it can produce multiple burgers at the same. I assume the
revenue per machine is potentially 5x of that (or more) which is $691200 per
year.

Making money seems like the lowest priority item on the very long list of
potential problems with this machine.

Cleaning and restocking? Those are still unsolved and might even be
impossible. Making more money merely requires "revision 2: now 30% more
efficient!" or just building more than one machine.

~~~
greedo
If your restaurant grosses $138K/year, you're out of business pretty fast.

~~~
radix07
True, but you don't have the same expenses. Hopefully less direct human labor
hours, able to run 24x7 at times when human costs could be higher, way less
real estate and more viable locations than a restaurant, as well as just lower
utility bills.

Of course there are other expenses such as maintenance, deployment,
development and upgrades. But those are the things this company is likely
trying to optimize.

------
CamelCaseName
I'm a little disheartened that nearly everyone so far has immediately jumped
to finding flaws in this stories and ones like it.

I get it, there is a long history of such robots failing economically.

However, automating food assembly could free a huge number of people from
menial restaurant work.

Perhaps we would see an explosion of food culture and personalization that
simply doesn't exist when you have several fast food chains operating tens of
thousands of stores worldwide and the cost of opening up a unique restaurant
is greater than many people's lifetime earnings.

I hope this problem is solved one day in my lifetime, and that we all benefit
from lower food assembly costs and increased dietary options.

~~~
ranci
"Free" them? They need that work in order to survive, mostly. They were "free"
before having that menial job and that freedom didn't seem to help turn them
into software engineers or nurses before...

~~~
jpatokal
Which is why we should immediately un-mechanize mines and bring back hurriers
and trappers!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrying](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrying)

[https://thoroglove.wordpress.com/2015/03/12/trappers-
hurrier...](https://thoroglove.wordpress.com/2015/03/12/trappers-hurriers-and-
hewers-working-in-a-coal-mine/)

Simply put: if a job is so repetitive that it can be automated out of
existence, it's in the interest of humanity overall that it should be.

~~~
econochoice
Seems like it's in the interests of the owners to automate, not in the
interests of those who work jobs that will be automated.

~~~
edanm
No, it seems like it's in _everyone 's_ interest. Or would you really prefer
to live in the conditions people lived in 200 years ago?

~~~
econochoice
To be honest, _everyone_ would have been better off if coal extraction
remained a manual process.

------
ohazi
I want to see a high-end robot restaurant that's run as a work of art rather
than a race-to-the-bottom. Think Benihana, but run by KUKA robots. You'd sit
facing a kitchen behind a glass wall and watch the robots fling things around
dangerously -- knives, cutting boards, frying pans, etc.

You'd order a complicated dish and watch in amazement as the robots prepare it
in front of you.

~~~
bcassedy
I'm really curious how something like that would be received. Is Benihana
entertaining to watch because of the tricks themselves or because it's
impressive that a human has learned to perform the tricks consistently?

~~~
workinthehead
If I ever had the chance to go see a robot doing Benihana tricks it would
definitely be worth going at least once. Perhaps I have more appreciation for
the degree of engineering that would go into something like that though.

~~~
imglorp
Maybe the bot can get the shrimp in my mouth.

------
adamonkey
I think what this company is doing is great. Unlike all the other automated
food startups, this one focuses on COST. I would definitely buy a $6 burger
with great ingredients.

The founder cares about people's wellbeing, and seems to have a mission. He's
been grinding this out for 8 years. It doesn't sound like the other automation
food startups out there.

------
arcaster
I don't really understand the appeal of these restaurants. While living in
Boston I went to the MIT "automated" wock-esque' restaurants a few times. It
wasn't even that, "automated" per-se outside of the wock-cooking. Humans still
handled a majority of meal prep, stocking machines, and dealing with payment
problems.

IMO I'd rather have spent less money at the neighboring Chipotle for better
food.

~~~
robbyking
I recently left the Bay Area to live in a major city in another state, and now
that it's a little easier to see the tech forest through the trees, I see that
for now, very few people want a lot of these types services outside of usual
tech centric hubs.

It's like in the Kurt Vonnegut book Player Piano: there are certain services
where people enjoy the human touch; I think food service is one of those.

~~~
briandear
Machines don’t put mustard on when you tell it no mustard. Machines don’t give
you attitude either. Machines don’t spit on your food or do any number of
disgusting things that fast food workers have been known to do.

~~~
econochoice
Machines will never comply with "Can I please have more than the two ketchup
packets that management woefully let's you give me?" or "How are you doing?"

------
WaylonKenning
Everyone is obsessing about the detail when there's already a company that
pretty much does this - Subway!

You could pretty much automate the sub construction process since the
ingredient prep process is done at an industrial scale and just shipped in
bags to each Subway location.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
Yeah I'm actually really surprised Subway hasn't at least tested an automated
restaurant. Seems like they would be perfectly positioned to do it. They even
pre-portion many of their meats to make it even easier.

~~~
ovao
A typical Subway has a lower staff count than most fast food joints, I think.
At most times, when I worked at one, we needed fewer than three heads on the
line.

------
agitator
This seems like it would quickly devolve into health hazard without constant
maintenance. Idk, at this point, it seems like it would be a headache just to
have this running smoothly. It's cool and all and yeah maybe robots will make
our food in the future, but this machine is not something that I'm especially
stoked about.

As a person who cooks, 50% of the time is spent cleaning up. I can see gunk,
pieces of stuff, residue messing with the machine. A normal person notices and
cleans each bit as they go, whereas a machine like this (unless engineered to
clean itself) will be cleaned periodically (most likely after business hours).
So my point is, I feel like food made by humans is still cleaner and safer.

Also what happens when something needs to be cleaned or replaced mid-lunch?
You shut down the machine and open it up... the restaurant loses $. In a
normal kitchen, you wipe things up, wash a knife, or grab a new one and keep
going.

~~~
greedo
Just imagine how fast this could spread food borne illnesses. Unless the meat
grinder is cleaned between each burger, that's a huge potential risk. Just a
little e. coli on the outside of the beef, and each blade will be
contaminated.

And as anyone who's worked fast food knows, the higher tech the food prep
device, the more delicate it is. Cooking beef results in grease, which gets
everywhere. You can put gaskets, physical barriers etc etc, and grease
particles will coat everything. Then things will break down.

Add in robotic mandolines for the tomatos/onions, the necessary refrigeration
of all the components and you've got something that won't be robust, reliable,
or efficient.

Then there's tamper resistance. This thing will need to be hermetically sealed
to keep people from doing the usual fsckery that happens in kiosks etc.

And the economics looks "challenging." From the article, it looks like it
stocks 30 buns. 30 burgers at $6 is $180 in revenue before someone needs to
restock it. And restock the beef. And make sure the artisanal beef deliveries
are handled properly. Sounds like a prep cook... Then you'll need cashiers,
and people to clean tables, and restrooms, and all the other accoutrements of
restaurants.

Yeah, it looks cool, and people do like to see their food cooked. The novelty
will attract people at first. Then the lines will deter them. Restaurants are
all about volume. And at $6 a burger, you'll need to crank them out fast.

~~~
wycs
Do you not think they may have addressed the obvious issues a layman thinks
up.

~~~
greedo
Worked in food service for 16 years, started my own restaurant. So not a
layman... (yes I know this is a logical fallacy; appeal to authority. So what)

But to answer your question, no. I don't think they've addressed these obvious
issues.

~~~
briandear
Why the hell wouldn’t they have addressed those issues? It’s so fundamental
that they’d be stupid to not have thought of what you’ve described. These
people probably know a thing or two about what they are doing — this isn’t
some kid’s science project. Other people have worked in restaurants too — I am
pretty sure your concerns aren’t novel.

~~~
greedo
I knew a lot of people whose parents worked in the industry. Their kids would
"help" out a bit (the parents hoped to pass on the restaurant) by working the
front of the house, or doing some bookkeeping etc. This gave them a sense of
the business without learning the hard side of it. The really long hours, the
fear of going broke, the hassles of employing people. The endless cleaning,
stocking, menu planning, working with vendors. The million details that all
have to be done for the business to run smoothly.

Then the parents decide to step away from the business. Their children take
over the business, and want to put their stamp on it. Modernize it. They
update the menu; redo the decor. Aim for a better clientele. Try to remove the
difficult parts of the business with technology. And the business fails.
Because they didn't understand the myriad small decisions that lead to its
initial success.

Restaurants are incredibly hard to start and run successfully. That's why
franchises are so popular, they take some of the guesswork out, at the expense
of giving up control and individuality.

At the end of the day, people want tasty food, at a reasonable price, served
quickly, and in a decent atmosphere. If this robot can provide that, it'll
succeed. I don't see that it can satisfy the second and third criteria. If
they get that down, and the cost of the robot isn't higher than a staffed and
equipped kitchen they'll succeed.

------
JumpCrisscross
> _It might not be the best burger I’ve had in my life, but it’s certainly the
> best at that price. A lot of that comes from the savings on labor and
> kitchen space afforded by a robot cook. “We spend more on our ingredients
> than any other burger restaurant.”_

That's a great elevator pitch. Fluff-free and obvious _ex post facto_.

~~~
greedo
Lots of fluff in that. A well run small kitchen can run rings around something
this size. It'll still need walk-ins to store the produce and beef, plus room
for buns (which take up a crap ton of space).

Other than the beef, all the other components are standard for a decent
restaurant. Fresh baked buns aren't anything special, nor is custom grind
meat. And bragging about spending more on your food cost is dumb. It shows
that he has no real idea about the day to day of keeping a restaurant
financially afloat. He'll find out when the VC money runs out.

~~~
workinthehead
Your comment shows that you've never worked in fast food.

~~~
greedo
Almost two decades in the business.

~~~
workinthehead
Well then. Good to see you're doing the work you're qualified for.

------
rightbyte
Well this was done in the 60s allready.

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FmXLqImT1wE&t=545s](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FmXLqImT1wE&t=545s)

It was most likely cracy expensive just as these news machines are compared to
a ordinary restaurant grade kitchen and you still need people going around
unstucking things that get stuck.

Bringing industrial processes into street food seems ... unpractical.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
Interestingly, to me at least, that machine from the 1960s seems better
constructed than the machine in this article.

~~~
userbinator
...and likely easier to maintain/modify/extend too, since everything will be
electromechanical and not controlled by a black-box computer.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Actually, exactly the opposite is more likely. All else being equal, the
electromechanical assemblies are more likely to fail and are harder to change
than the computer.

------
jpao79
I think what's kind of interesting is if this actually makes it easier to
start a restaurant. Assuming at some point, some food robot maker steps up and
starts selling the robot itself to independent restauranteurs, instead of
selling hamburgers to end consumers, do these robots put the power back into
the hands of the small business/restaurant owner?

I have to imagine a big complication in starting an independent restaurant is
the overhead of hiring/managing/supporting employees (i.e. wait staff, cooks,
dishwashers, etc.). A large employee base probably requires a large franchise
with economies of scale to distribute the cost of centralized HR over many
restaurants.

Without that overhead, entrepreneurial restauranteurs can focus on
differentiating the food, the location(s) of the restaurant and the ambiance.

~~~
notahacker
I think getting the location right has always been the biggest obstacle to
being a successful restaurant. And there's only so much you can change the
menu and "ambience" when you're supplying self-service burgers.

Plus the article does hint the robo-restaurant still has employees to manage
customers, clean, load the machine and presumably sort out issues with it on a
not-infrequent basis...

~~~
greedo
Restaurants fail because of 1) poor location, 2) undercapitalization 3) poor
QSC (quality/service/cleanliness).

------
ahallock
I'm not very impressed with this. It automates some steps, but they need to
take this to the next level, where everything is prepared in a compact, self-
cleaning machine. I know people love the art of cooking and there's the
question of jobs, but honestly, I hate that my food is created in these
chaotic, dirty kitchens. People get tired, apathetic, etc, and the consistency
really suffers. How many times have you had an amazing meal only to be
completely disappointed the next time.

------
periram
Food, laundry and house cleaning: Things that have not kept pace with
technological advancements.

I really hope they are successful. The second order effects of this
automation, especially for a busy family like ours are hours of saved time,
that can be spent with the children.

~~~
uptown
Cleaning the laundry is essentially solved. Folding what's been cleaned is
where the gap remains.

~~~
mlboss
Or wrinkle free clothes

~~~
godelski
This is solved by folding. Or hanging up your clothes.

------
overcast
Robotic fast food is basically inevitable. It's the same exact process, rarely
do menus really change. Burger actually looks pretty dang good, and for $6?
Heck yes.

~~~
optimuspaul
$6 is a lot for a fast food burger. I can get a really good burger at dozens
of places for less and isn't made by a machine.

~~~
acchow
> I can get a really good burger at dozens of places for less

This place is in San Francisco. Where are these "dozens of places" for a
really good burger <$6?

~~~
tschwimmer
Super duper has a 4 oz burger that’s 5.75, and is widely acclaimed.

~~~
acchow
I really like Super Duper.

But where are the "dozens" of places?

------
SomewhatLikely
I think it would make a lot of sense to do this for food that wouldn't be cost
effective today due to preparation costs. Open a restaurant that serves food
no one else does because it would be too labor intensive.

------
EnderMB
From a tech perspective, I think it's a good thing to step towards automation
for low-quality burgers, especially in chain restaurants where a recipe has
been modified to ensure that the flavour is consistent across the
country/world.

What I'd like to see more from this kind of startup is a desire to ensure that
anyone that loses a job due to their product has the opportunity for
retraining. Sure, it won't be great for profits, but if we're heading towards
a time where low-paying jobs are to be automated then I'd love to see a trend
start where people who will lose their jobs to automation can opt to move into
management or train towards an entry-level job in the engineering required to
run these tools.

What I really don't want is some smug SV type spouting a load of bullshit
about how automation makes peoples jobs easier. It only makes them easier by
relieving them of their duties.

~~~
thunfischbrot
I agree with your point that it would be great if proverbial disruption would
come with more ideas of how the people in jobs potentially eliminated could
get jobs elsewhere. Moving into management or engineering though may be out of
the question for many of the current employees in those jobs, as they (by and
large) may not have chosen/ended up in those jobs if they were qualified and
suitable for management/engineering. The maintenance and potentially
manufacturing may be more likely transitioning paths, what do you think?

~~~
EnderMB
Definitely, as long as they have the first opportunity to move into these
jobs. I suppose the benefit of management is that it can apply outside of
their line of work, but general manufacturing can too.

The key would be to ensure that anyone that is to lose their job in the future
through it being automated by innovative tech be given the opportunity to
retrain for a better job. This kind of enforcement means that the job market
isn't swamped by mass redundancy, and a consistent time period of retraining
for people to re-enter that job market.

------
black6
Speaking from the point of view of a professional brewer, cleaning and
sanitizing that mechanized butcher/line cook would be a _nightmare_.

------
spunker540
I think these kinds of machines could potentially be mainstream someday, at
least in fast food, and I see a lot of potential in both cost-savings and food
safety improvements.

One thing that struck me as humorous though is the founder's comparison to
self-driving cars (from Bloomberg's article): “What you’re watching is a
technological feat. Self-driving cars need a lot of mileage before they become
reliable. You’re seeing something similar here”

Not to dismiss the challenges with automating burgers, but its pretty
straightforward compared to self-driving tech - there's basically no unknowns!

~~~
rainbowmverse
>> _Not to dismiss the challenges with automating burgers, but its pretty
straightforward compared to self-driving tech - there 's basically no
unknowns!_

I always assume things are more complicated than they appear on the surface,
so this is a surprise. You sound like you've explored this topic thoroughly.
What is involved in having a robot produce a hamburger (not just the patty, of
course)?

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Process automation (a field I've been involved in for around 20 years) is
vastly easier because the environment doesn't change by much. You can pretty
much say "move this thing over here, verify that you moved it over there, add
this chemical, and mix, verify that the chemical was added and then mixed" and
be pretty confident that it will work in all likely scenarios.

Self-driving cars, OTOH, have to work with nice smooth roads, or potholed
monstrosities, or ice & snow, deer jumping out right in front of the car, or
idiots tailgating you at 70 mph while you're trying to maintain distance from
the car in front of you. Their environment is always changing, and not
generally in a predictable fashion.

------
AndrewKemendo
I had the idea for the Sub sandwich version of this on my way home from Iraq
in 2010. I wanted a sub sandwich, and was still on middle east time, however
Baltimore airport didn't have anything open at 2AM when I landed. So the
thinking was, why not have a completely automated sandwich shop, that cut
everything fresh as it was ordered? The thinking goes, that if you automate
the ends of the farm to table process, cooking/service and Growing/picking,
then automating the logistics (transport) will make more sense.

After about a year or two of engineering sketches and business planning I gave
up on it because it would take a few years for the technology to be capable
and people to be ready for a wholly automated restaurant - with one person
there for QC/fixes. Plus it would probably be 1-2M just for a prototype. Sure
enough in 2011 Momentum machines came out with their prototype, and now 7
years later they have a new brand and a working shop.

Kudos to them. If they do it right, these guys could automate field to table
and drive food costs to zero with minimal waste.

------
maerF0x0
> When I ask how a startup launching one eatery at a time could become a $10
> billion company, Creator co-founder and CEO Alex Vardakostas looks me dead
> in the eye and says, “the market is much bigger than that.”

A $10B valuation company better understand the profit between $1 sale of SaaS
and $1 sale of food ...

~~~
gkoberger
I mean, McDonalds seems to be doing just fine.

~~~
greedo
McDonalds is a real estate company that sells hamburgers...

~~~
gkoberger
Sure, and why can't this company do that eventually? Maybe expand into other
foods, rent out machines, do maintenance, etc.

(I don't necessarily think they'll ever be worth $10Bn, but... eventually,
some company doing something similar will be)

------
TheCoelacanth
> The idea is that when you bite into the burger, your teeth align with the
> vertical strands so instead of requiring harsh chewing it almost melts in
> your mouth.

Is this for real? I don't think I've ever had a burger that required "harsh
chewing".

~~~
workinthehead
If you've never experienced the difference between a burger that melts in your
mouth vs a burger that uses tough, grade C or D frozen patties... you've never
experienced a burger.

------
creade
The bowling equipment manufacturer AMF was here in 1964
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmXLqImT1wE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmXLqImT1wE)

------
mmagin
It looks hard to clean and does not look like it uses a lot of common off-the-
shelf industrial parts. I'd want a very impressive service contract to go
along with it.

------
SeanMacConMara
[http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm](http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm)
pops to mind. again.

~~~
yifanl
This seems more like the exact opposite scenario.

~~~
SeanMacConMara
Both stories literally feature mechanically automated fast-food outlets.

care to elaborate your pov please ?

~~~
yifanl
Manna is a robot deciding how the human workers should behave.

This is a bunch of human workers deciding how the mechanical work should be
done (i.e. with a robot).

------
dalbasal
I would be curious to see what the actual economic case is for burger
automation like this. What's the labour cost savings here, all in?

Restaurants aren't food factories, not even mcdonaldses. We food factories
too, but this doesn't appear to be for them. This was to be more about whether
or not people would like to have their burger made by a robot. Price-wise, I'd
wager its much of a muchness.

~~~
briandear
Labor costs are by far the most expensive costs for a restaurant. Employee
turnover is also a significant problem. You typically aren’t able to hire A
players to make burgers.

------
digi_owl
Reminds me of a video from Sexycyborg i ran into a a while back where she
visited what may well be described as a walk in vending machine.

She could pick out what she wanted to buy on a touch screen in the wall, it
would come out pre-heated in a slot nearby, and there was a "bar" of sorts
were one could sit and eat, that would basically dump anything left on it into
the trash upon leaving.

~~~
contingencies
Sounds like [https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/f5-future-
store](https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/f5-future-store) ... there's a
human behind the wall.

------
contingencies
So they finally came out with the rumored restaurant, with 8 years + USD$25M
down. Spyce[0] (slammed by HN[1]) beat them to it, on a smaller budget, with
the same 'restaurant with partial automation' model. By all accounts
(including the friendly founder of Bistrobot, who was unfairly slammed in the
article), US regulations are not friendly toward innovation in this space
making a restaurant-based launch an effective requirement.

Previous statements from the company included _Our alpha machine replaces all
of the hamburger line cooks in a restaurant. It does everything employees can
do except better_ and that US restaurants can save USD$150,000/year on staff
salaries. Current reality: many staff, USD$16/hr each, manual finishing,
manual preparation of sides and drinks, manual cleaning.

In 2016 I founded Infinite Food here in China. We're developing a fully
automated model more akin to a wholly owned and operated network of futuristic
vending machines and logistics fleet than a restaurant. Consumers order and
pay through an app. Starting from fresh ingredients stored in a fridge within
each unit, we cook noodle, pasta and soup dishes to taste, with an average 3
minute hot meal preparation, packaging and retail time and mere seconds for
cold dishes. Think ramen/soba/udon/nyangmyeon/pho/pad thai/laksa/various
pasta/various Chinese noodles with total customization. In addition, we
provide real time nutritional feedback on personalization, allow for ordering
in any human language and 24x7x365 availability. Our core idea is to get
physically closer to the high density Asian urban consumer than any other food
retail option, and offer a broader choice of fresher food.

Early on we looked at the whole problem took the strategy of simultaneous
innovation at the appropriate layer: central facility, logistics network or
service location based upon available technology and allowable tradeoffs.
There's no public evidence any of the US players have much investment in this
area, whereas we have a provisional business method patent filed for our
solution with more on the way. Currently we are relocating across the Pearl
River Delta from Shenzhen to launch operations in Zhuhai and take advantage of
the new HK-Macau bridge while hedging regulatory risk across three launch
markets (HK/Macau/Guangdong - China's most populous province) and are raising
Series A to deploy 300 locations next year.

Total relative spend vs. MM/Creator: ~5% + 1/3 time. Some of the things we've
achieved they haven't: full personalization, zero in-field maintenance, true
self-cleaning, automated packaging and cutlery provisioning, logistics
innovations. Estimate net profit/sale in initial markets: ~USD$2+. Max hot
sales/hr: 80. Max cold sales/hr:200+. Meals/restock: 200+. Parallel meal
prep.: Up to 4x. Footprint: 2x1 square meters. Prospective investors are
welcome to check us out at [http://infinite-food.com/](http://infinite-
food.com/) or email in profile.

[0] [https://www.spyce.com/](https://www.spyce.com/)

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16792371](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16792371)

------
broose_goose
Founder says he was inspired by flipping burgers, when in all reality he got
the idea while watching jimmy neutron[1] as a kid...

[1][http://jimmyneutron.wikia.com/wiki/Men_at_Work](http://jimmyneutron.wikia.com/wiki/Men_at_Work)

------
whitepoplar
I always thought robot-made burgers would be depressing, but this actually
looks...not depressing.

------
chasontherobot
I don't trust anyone to make my burger when they talk about french fries like
that.

------
bsenftner
He's automating the wrong part. Making the burger is cheaper made by humans.
He needs to read this:
[http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm](http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm)

~~~
tom_mellior
> Making the burger is cheaper made by humans.

Non-fiction citation needed. One of the points in the article is that those
humans take up _space_ that you need to rent.

------
DonHopkins
Now all they need is a robot waiter!

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXsUetUzXlg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXsUetUzXlg)

------
jayjay71
That's a pretty sweet machine. Can't wait to see it first hand.

------
kyleperik
Get ready for the legislation that attempts to enforce taxing this

[https://qz.com/911968/bill-gates-the-robot-that-takes-
your-j...](https://qz.com/911968/bill-gates-the-robot-that-takes-your-job-
should-pay-taxes/)

------
RickJWagner
Sounds delicious. (Maybe I shouldn't read when I'm hungry.)

------
samnwa
This company would be cool if it were helping existing burger employees to
have ownership in the coming wave of automation. Let me know when you find
that company and I will invest the little that I have!

------
simplecomplex
Why is it so expensive?

~~~
wolco
Because they don't have burger king scale and need profits to expand quickly
before their idea is copied.

~~~
greedo
They won't be making any profits at $72/hour in revenue.

~~~
megy
How do you get that number?

------
Kagerjay
I design restaurants. I'm well versed on all the latest trends in food
technology. I helped a few companies grow including some that have hit
national news. I work with some international chains spanning 200+ restaurants
and have worked with a couple fortunre 500 companies. I've met some famous
chefs as well. Visited a few factories that span 2 square miles that produce
only equipment.

I can tell you people want to buy the cheapest stuff possible to get stuff
done. Unless they've tried the cheapest stuff possible, and realize that
paying more for extra features might be worth it(but not always sometimes the
cheaper things are better). The only end users that would use this are high-
end establishments willing to invest in both footprint space, maintenance, and
high upfront cost. The 2nd market would be for the marketing appeal in an open
kitchen and the cool robotics. The 3rd market would be for someone who wants
to cook patties but need a self contained hood system, and those run for about
$10k, so adding an initial investment might be worth it.

Some of the problems that this robot solves are solved by independent
machinery already.

\- There's already machines that cut, slice, and toast buns on a timed
conveyor belt. Examples:
[http://www.bellecocooking.com/services.html](http://www.bellecocooking.com/services.html)
. These are used in panera bread

\- Someone dedicated to burger flipping is generally cooking multiple patties
all in one go. There are also few pieces of machinery that broil on both sides
at specific cooking curve temperatures, so you cook a patty like you would a
panini. This eliminates the need for "flipping burgers" producing a more
consistent dining experience, with an operator needing to attend to the
beeping noise when the burger is finished. [http://www.taylor-
company.com/en/products/commercial-grills/...](http://www.taylor-
company.com/en/products/commercial-grills/commercial-grills)

\- Cutting onions, tomatoes, and lettuce is a completely unnecessary step.
Most places would buy from sysco or another food distributor that precuts it
at a factory.

When we look at labor intensity of making a burger, tasks are generally
divided into the following approach

\- 1. One person flips burgers and handles raw meat only (Cross contamination)

\- 2. Another person assembles the burger + the precut veggies + adds sauce +
assembles + wrapping it.

\- 3. Another person handles the register (Cross contamination)

\- 4. Same person usually calls number and delivers person the order

\------------------------------------------------------------------

While one person can fulfill multiple roles, you have to swap out gloves
constantly (cost of swapping tasks), so its more feasible to have a dedicated
person to each task. The most important step in making a burger is the patty
itself, its the MVP and the longest step in the process. Assemblying the
burger is already fairly precise as well, there are specialized squeeze
bottles for dispensing specific amount of sauce, everything is precut, etc.

The actual burger bot production line style is not new. There are a few pieces
of specific foodtypes that capitalize on assembly line production inside of a
restaurant, these are the following:

\- Donut production (Krispy Kreme). Step 1 would be dipping the donut in a
fryer, step 2 is coating it with sugar and frosting, etc. When you think of
assembly line production inside a physical kitchen, this is the first thing
that comes to mind. They machinery operates automates step 1 in the process.
Example:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l013vVp3OU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l013vVp3OU)

\- Japanese restaurants in Japan. Or go to a fancy McDonalds, Wawa, airport
restaurants, etc in the states. Many times you'll see step 3 automated,
because let's face it I'd rather deal with a kiosk that never makes an
ordering mistake over some fresh hire from some high school. Step 4 is
sometimes automated in Japan as well with conveyor belts, especially in sushi
restaurants. You'll see steps 1 and 2 automated with specialized sushi packing
rice machines and rollers. Example:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R47tfK1dna8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R47tfK1dna8)

\- Sandwich prepackagers for grocery stores. Tesco is a good example. This is
a good example:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS_hnmHWEcg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS_hnmHWEcg).
But the thing with this though, when you scale to an industrial level - your
demands for production are consistent and predictable. This is not true for
restaurants. Some hours are incredibly crazy while some are incredible dead
(3pm to 5pm). Certain reasons might be booming others might be slow, depending
on a number of factors. Not all restaurants cater to the same crowd - some
cater to locals, others tourists and convention goers, etc.

\- In addition, Step 4 is currently being automated by many companies. Servers
and hostsess are generally not the MVP in a fast casual dining restaurant,
people come for food not service. Think of delivery based robots, there's a
couple of them I can't remember their names offhand.

\- Burgerfi merges step 3 and 4 so the service staff knows where you are
sitting for that order.

\------------------------------------------------------------------

This machine is looking to do both assembly and cooking. Unless this robot
provides more value than its costs (upfront cost, maintenance, footprint
oppurtunity cost) vs 2 waged employees, most business owners won't go for it.
There are machines such as the misorobot that capitalizes only on the raw meat
step, [https://misorobotics.com/](https://misorobotics.com/).

You can't really compare this same process to something like subway.
Everything at subway is already either precooked so cross contamination with
raw meat is not an issue.

Next, lots of moving parts or generally relying on one "assembly line"
production has a few fatal flaws. Namely, these are the following:

\- 1. Lots of moving parts means potential for many things to break.

\- 2. If your entire burger making process relies solely on the machine, you
are screwed if it breaks on rush hour. Anyone who throws their eggs in one
basket doesn't know risk management.

\- 3. The veggies are not refrigerated. This is a health hazard if you aren't
moving enough burgers at a time. Looking at the prototype this could be
implemented though, since veggies are all roughly next to each other. This
unit comes to mind when I saw the burger bot
[https://www.silverking.com/project/lettuce-crisper-
dispenser...](https://www.silverking.com/project/lettuce-crisper-dispenser/)

\- 4. You might be limited in variations of what burgers you can make. Manual
labor cooking allows for infinite customization, machines do not. Many burger
chains are going for "green" based low-fat burgers as well, where you use
lettuce leafs over burger buns. In addition, a few burger chains also stamp
their logo on the bunn by burning part of the top. Some customers might
request things like no pickles, double onions, etc. Machines wouldn't account
for it probably.

~~~
Kagerjay
Because of #2, you will still need a backup method of cooking your burgers
manually. This might be done on the machine or a standalone grill. You will
still need a commercial griddle more than likely (usually a 24" or 36") as a
backup. Whereas something like misorobotics only performs the flipping, so
this is unnecessary.

Onto the actual comments of the video itself. The author mentions 5 minute
breaks to read books, etc. Those sound really great but in reality people come
to their job to pay the bills. Employees already abuse smoke breaks so its
going to be abused as well. This wouldn't fly for part time employees
especially too. If you've run a restaurant you would know this to be true.

Another issue with this machine is how big of a footprint it is, and that it
needs to be displayed somewhere openly. If you intend to go with a machine
like this, you have to 100% know it will be in place before the store even
opens. Because of this only a franchise would invest in this machine.
Restaurants generally have a few different patterns for kitchen design
layouts, and they vary based on the actual building size. For instance, some
restaurants might have a square-ish foot print space, some would have a
rectangular-ish layout spacing. Some might have prebuilt interior walls,
others might not, so these are contributing factors.

Basically, if you buy this machine, you better bet everything you have on it
and make your whole concept revolve around it as well. This means training
staff, having trained technicians on hand, parts for JIT supply through nearby
vendors or in house stock, etc.

\------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, there is still lots of innovation going on in the restaurant industry
still. You don't hear about it on the news, but one item that is really
penetrating the market right now is dropin induction based cookers here
[http://vollrath.com/Vollrath](http://vollrath.com/Vollrath), drastically
reducing maintenance costs and improving safety. Its currently being discussed
with Chipotle as a replacement for their warmer line (e.g. the place where you
order all your food and look through the sneezeguard, etc). Most newer
concepts revolve around the Chipotle-style serving process, so it has large
market implications.

One item that is actually "high tech" that actually works (for 5+ years) in
the market is smart combi convention ovens. Its been around for some time,
here's a youtube demo of it
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb5I3JcA5bA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb5I3JcA5bA).
The reason why it works is because it simplifies many operators task and
produces a variety of menu items that pass for a 5 star gourmet restaurant. It
also has a small footprint so the cost is usually justifiable (Usually 20k to
30k range), and many times its used in banquet, senior homes, and a la carte
style cooking. The reason it works is because it enables the chef to also
perform ANY type of cooking method (parbroil, partial frying, steaming,
baking, roasting, saute, etc).

Other things that are currently being adopted by the market because they are
solving issues related to cooking itself(not assembly line processes) - sou
vide based cooking, vacuum based smoke injection, air frying, etc

\------------------------------------------------------------------

TLDR

I think AI based commercial food equipment is interesting. I can 100% tell you
experienced restaurant owners prefer stupid-simple equipment that handles one
task extremely well. I don't believe this type of assembly robot will hit it
as big as kiosks designed for hostess / cashier replacements, delivery food
robots / servers, or dedicated robots like misorobotics for handling singular
tasks. Many of these items I have just listed don't have a huge investment
cost in terms of footprint, or maintenance, and have a lower risk portfolio.
Many of these are already being tested in california and parts of Japan (or
have for some time).

You need to understand what the problems restaurants actually face. While
every restaurant faces issues of food consistency, these can be solved with
many types of equipment in the market already. The other issue that many
restaurants face is customer-service quality - e.g. staff are trained poorly,
staff don't add the order to the system, servers in rush hour are doing too
many things at a given time, etc. It actually makes a lot more sense to
automate this as much as possible, with services like opentable, smartRobots,
etc. Lastly, restaurants always have to deal with potential health code
violations, infestations, and poor reviews on yelp / google.

Building a burger is not a problem almost any restaurant faces IMO. Assembling
a proper burger requires little to no skill at all, can be fucked up and still
works fine (e.g. look at McDonalds). However cooking a burger patty does
require some skill but again there is equipment that handles that.
Misorobotics does solve this issue because the operator does have to be
present to physically flip the burger, else it burns over. I really wouldn't
be surprised if there was a way to cook a burger like you would on a pizza
conveyor toaster, but I have not seen it yet. Example:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBgNEbQDX3k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBgNEbQDX3k).

Those are the reasons why I don't believe assembly-line based burger
production is going to be a big thing. Not only that, if you dig back a little
into another prominent industry, most car companies aren't even using pure
assembly-line production either (e.g. The Toyota Way).

Or if you want a programming based example, assembly line production is like a
sequential based process. Its can be slow because you have to wait for one
step to finish before doing another. However, concurrency based approaches
(Async JS / NodeJS, GO-lang concurrency, hyperthreading) lets you process
tasks much faster. That's how restaurants operate and the ones who do it best
are the ones you actually know about today.

------
megaman22
This sounds like quite the Rube Goldberg machine; if it becomes a reality and
is economical, that's great news.

I have to think there is lower hanging fruit in the fast food industry,
though. I just really want McDonald's or Dunkin Donuts to turn their POS
machine around so I can key in my own order, or maybe they could cut a deal
with Amazon or Apple to start using Siri or Alexa. The failure rate on the
biological natural language processors currently in use are shockingly high.

~~~
donarb
McDonald's already has ordering kiosks in some of its restaurants. They also
have a mobile app that allows you to order and pay before you walk in the
door, just show up and walk out with your food.

~~~
subpixel
This handles the transactions really well, but now you get 40 people standing
around the cash registers waiting for their order grumbling about how this
process sucks. It feels like a bread line.

~~~
snarf21
The UI is also awful. You have to touch in opposite corners for each
successive selection or choice. It takes sooo much longer than saying a "#5
medium to go" > insert card > they finish > remove card. It is a reasonable
choice if there is already a line of 4 people in front of you and you are
waiting anyway.

The thing I'd really like is a combination of voice (the above is trivial to
parse) and a history of my last 6 orders to one touch order.

------
ada1981
People still eat meat?

------
mythrwy
I can't wait.

One reason I don't like eating out much is who is touching my food?

That burger looks pretty good and $6 sounds pretty good.

~~~
agitator
Lol someone is always touching your food. It's not going to kill you.

~~~
mythrwy
There are other things that can happen besides death though. And you know all
those things you do with your hands? Well, those people do that also.

Seriously, removing the dirty hairless ape element as much as possible from
food prep is great all around!

I'm really really surprised everyone doesn't feel this way but apparently not.
I do though. Can't wait for these machines to get rolled out.

~~~
workinthehead
Machines if not properly cleaned have the potential to become way more septic
than a healthy animal. Shows how much you know.

~~~
mythrwy
That's ridiculous.

Plus it's easier to keep a machine clean (which they no doubt will) than a
fleet of fast food workers.

Besides, it's not real potential, it's how I feel about it. Bring the machine
on I say!

~~~
workinthehead
No, it's really not. Fast food workers clean themselves. They tend to notice
when they develop gangrene. Machines, not so much. That stray piece of lettuce
that got caught in a machine joint for 6 weeks? Hope you enjoy E. Coli.

------
tyfon
I'd go for it as long as they use fresh undamaged and proper ingredients
completely devoid of preservatives, corn starch etc. The cleaning of the
machine has to be top notch too and done several times a day I think.

If done properly it could be great, nothing turns me off food more than seeing
a sweaty cook drip sweat onto the food while making it (yes it has happened,
the food went into the garbage).

