
Uber will start deactivating riders with low ratings - hbcondo714
https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/29/uber-will-start-deactivating-riders-with-low-ratings/
======
rootusrootus
First, using an arbitrary number of stars is part of the problem. Too much
opportunity for legitimate differences of rating to come into play. Just make
the question "would you do business with this driver/rider again?" and leave
it at that. At the very least the rating should be market-specific, since
there is so much cultural influence over such ratings.

Second, Uber should not be making the choice based on some arbitrarily chosen
numerical value. Present the rating to the drivers, maybe with some comments,
let them choose who they want to take. After all, if Uber isn't employing the
drivers and is just the middleman, wouldn't they want to avoid being seen as a
crucial decision maker?

~~~
hombre_fatal
I saw my girlfriend rate our driver 3/5 stars for a ride that was perfect.
When I asked her what problem she had with the driver to rate him so low, she
said "huh? it was just an average ride, nothing special."

I think of this whenever people suggest that a star rating system is ideal.

~~~
maire
I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the Netflix rating system which seems
more accurate. Netflix scales the rating against your other ratings. If you
always say 3 = OK then 5 = great. If you always say 5 = does not suck then 3 =
sucks but not horrible.

I don't even rate AirBNB hosts (for instance) because I know that a good
enough host will be punished. I only rate the top and the bottom because those
are the only two ratings that have meaning any more.

~~~
Pyxl101
Netflix switched to a thumbs up / thumbs down rating system in 2017:

[https://www.businessinsider.com/why-netflix-replaced-
its-5-s...](https://www.businessinsider.com/why-netflix-replaced-its-5-star-
rating-system-2017-4)

~~~
kerbalspacepro
People got very mad at this, but it seems preferable. Movies/TV shows that you
"like a lot" versus movies that you "just like" are both movies that you'd
watch, and watching is what you're buying.

------
CydeWeys
My Uber passenger rating is 4.57. I have no idea whether that's good or bad.
I'm typically at pick-up points before the drivers are, I sometimes chat with
drivers, I always wear my seatbelt, I sit in the back, and I don't make a mess
or cause any problems. It's hard to know what I could be doing to get a better
rating beyond just bribing drivers with cash tips at the end of the ride. I
tend to rate every driver a 5 unless they clearly did something wrong, like
insane driving (which happens rarely).

I'd be curious to know what the passenger cut-off ratings are, and what thus
what kind of behavior is actually kicking people off the app.

Also, if there's some inherent racial or other protected class bias in the
kinds of ratings that people get, then Uber could be in a world of trouble
here.

~~~
matt-attack
One thing I know riders may do inadvertently which aggravates drivers is
slamming the door when you get out. Many are unaware of it, but it's quite
annoying to the driver.

For me, I often rate drivers below 5 for the following common reasons:

    
    
      1. Check engine light is on.
      2. TPMS sensor light is on (major safety risk)
      3. Poor routing choices (deviations outside the directed route)
    

These are professional drivers so I hold them to professional standards with
respect to: maintaining their equipment, maintaining a safety standard, and
knowing navigation.

Edit: Yes TPMS is _super_ flaky. I own three cars equipped with TPMS and I've
invested a great deal of time/money in maintaining them. But I keep them all
in working condition. I can only assume that some of you poo-poo'ing TPMS are
unaware of the Firestone Ford Debacle that caused close to 300 deaths [1].
Under inflated tires are no-joke. Suggesting that it's ok to defeat a critical
safety system is laughable. Also I live in CA so it's not a snow-tire issue.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_and_Ford_tire_contro...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_and_Ford_tire_controversy)

~~~
jstarfish
TPMS modules are insanely flaky. That light will pop for reasons ranging from
synchronization issues to using a spare without a module (not the
donut!)..none of which impact safety at all.

Same with "check engine." My last car had the check engine light on from years
3 to 15, when I sold it. The reason was a faulty sensor but the actual
mechanics were sound and not worth fixing.

I'm amused that you think you're holding drivers to professional standards.
Professionals know when to ignore the dummy lights intended for the masses...

...which is not to say you should change anything, because Uber drivers ARE
the masses, so it makes little sense to treat them like professionals!

Uber simply organized hitchhiking.

~~~
FireBeyond
My Jaguar will throw a Check Engine for Fuel Cap Insufficiently Tightened.

~~~
Scoundreller
The rubber on the cap eventually cracks as well. I wonder if Vaseline or
something would make it young again.

~~~
CydeWeys
That can't be a very expensive part to replace. May as well do it.

~~~
Scoundreller
I agree. Worth a try. Worst case scenario, I’m out $15.

------
mettamage
This is what happens when you don't have psychologists or similar quantitative
people who handle human data on your team.

I've studied psychology and CS and the difference in how they treat ratings is
_stark_ , CS GoT nothing on us! (yes, I did that, I'll get myself of stage
now)

A psychologist is _paranoid_ when it comes to quantifying human data. How
paranoid you ask? I'll try to capture the sentiment, but I'm sure it's way
worse than the following paragraph.

Psychologist: Should I go for a simple yes/no? Well that could useful, but it
could also be that I leave too much data on the table. Let me look at tons of
research on this topic (hello Google Scholar! Long time no see). Well, if I do
3 stars, then the middle option also becomes a neutral option, which means I'm
skewing the data, so I might have to go to 4 possible choices then. Then
again, people are more used to the 5 star rating, so that has a plus for
usability, but then you'd have the same issue as a 3 choice rating. Maybe I
should just use a 7-likert scale type of thing? And obviously, it's also the
case that this is an ordinal scale. The property of 1 < 2 < 3 and so on still
holds, but the property of 1 + 1 = 2 doesn't. Do people really mean with "2"
twice as big compared to a "1"? Are they able to quantify such relationships
on any scale? Perhaps quantitatively minded people on a 3 choice scale, but
we'd need to do studies about that, but the average user probably not -- still
need to do studies about that (and hello Google Scholar, here we meet again in
the same paragraph).

CS or UX person with no research background: ah yea, let's do a 5 star rating,
that seems cool :)

It's on you Uber.

It's really on you.

Hire psychologists / socially minded statisticians.

~~~
crooked-v
I'm a fan of HappyOrNot for dead-simple intuitive feedback:
[https://www.happy-or-not.com/en/smiley-terminal/](https://www.happy-or-
not.com/en/smiley-terminal/)

~~~
hnzix
Until schoolkids repeatedly mash the frowny face button for lulz.

~~~
walterbell
We need version numbers for game-theoretic universes, e.g. the effects of
companies which launch into a market whose assumptions and practices will soon
be overturned by said company.

The second-order feedback loops are adversarial (kids, competitors, city-
states, policy) and subject to data analysis, but the public is more likely to
receive marketing narratives than peer-reviewed scholarship.

------
crazygringo
"Due process" is a legal standard that is present in US Constitutional
amendments for a reason.

Now obviously Uber is a private company and is currently legally allowed to
discriminate against customers with low ratings provided they are not
discriminating along protected categories like race or gender.

BUT, ride-sharing apps tend to turn into natural monopolies or duopolies
simply because of natural network effects, and effectively become part of a
city's transportation system. I would argue that, with this, they should carry
additional responsibilities to customers that a normal private company
doesn't.

And one of them is that banning customers should involve "due process", e.g.
standards for investigation, burden of proof, opportunity to contest, and
resulting actions, e.g. a temporary suspension. A permanent ban should be
reserved for only the most serious cases, e.g. where a customer has been
convicted in a court of law for threatening violence and gone to prison. (And
a temporary ban can be put in place while a court case in pending.)

A crowdsourced star rating is _not_ due process. And with Uber and Lyft
essentially part of public transport, this is a scary and deeply undemocratic
path to go down.

In NYC it's illegal for a taxi not to pick someone up, because this can be the
source of tremendous racial discrimination (and continues to be, despite its
illegality). We don't want to let Uber do the same type of thing to another
class of people.

~~~
the_watcher
Given that Uber already uses a pretty similar version of this system for
drivers (it's based on star ratings as well), and riders are just as
potentially biased as drivers, unless you have a problem with using ratings
for eligibility on both the supply and demand side, this isn't a strong
argument.

The comparison with the taxi law is apples and oranges: a single taxi driver
can make the unilateral decision to discriminate, while in Uber's system, it
would require systemic discrimination across all of the drivers in a given
city. While I'll grant that it's possible, if it reaches that point, there
should be grounds for a lawsuit alleging disparate impact (which I believe is
an established concept when applied to private businesses that was
incorporated in the Warren Court years, although there's more gray area here,
so I may be off the mark).

~~~
crazygringo
If Uber were considered an actual employer, and the US had stronger
protections for employment (instead of at-will) then that would make sense --
there's a good argument it should be illegal to fire you merely because
customers rate you badly because they don't like your hairstyle or where you
come from.

But I'm particularly basing my original argument on the fact that dispatch car
services easily become a natural monopoly or duopoly, so customers don't have
choice and they need to get around the city.

Whereas driving is a relatively low-skill and low-paying job, of which there
are many many others in our service economy -- tons and tons of service jobs.
My point is that if you lose your job driving for Uber, you can find another
decent-enough substitute job because there are literally thousands of
companies hiring. If you get banned from riding Uber, there may be no good
substitute because there are only a handful of public transportation options
at most, and at a given time/place Uber might be the only one.

------
choward
> For drivers, they face a risk of deactivation if they fall below 4.6

This is absurd. Even though I feel like some drivers deserve 3 or 4 stars I
always give 5 because I had no idea what Uber does with these ratings. This
confirms that I was doing the right thing. Just because I give 3 or 4 stars
doesn't mean that I wouldn't want to ride with them again. They just aren't
the best of the best.

~~~
matt-attack
I feel it's not my business to understand Uber's intent with the ratings. They
ask me for my honest rating, on a scale that goes from 1-5. Why should we
assume that 1-4 are essentially saying "fire this person", and only _one_
value means keep them. I find it particularly absurd. I routinely rate 2, 3,
4, etc. based on my own gauge. What Uber wants to do with that data is their
prerogative.

~~~
crazypyro
Right, but most people would still look at the effect of their actions on
other people, even if indirectly.

Same reason I always rate customer service reps a 5 (unless something really
appalling happened). Most companies would prefer you not provide feedback at
all than provide a lower 5 rating on a 1-5 scale.

Sure, you don't have any responsibility to understand what is going to happen
with the ratings, but once you do, it seems overly punitive to give low
ratings.

------
arprocter
A star rating is a bad way to measure - as a driver you wouldn't make the 4.6
grade mentioned if you got equal amounts of 4 and 5 ratings

Better to to ask 'would you ride/drive with this person again?' with a simple
yes/no answer, and if no then ask for a reason - if people aren't given a
reason why they got a lower rating then how are they expected to change their
behavior?

The only time I wanted to give a bad review I couldn't - the driver left me
waiting in the cold for 30 mins and then 'cancelled' without ever picking me
up

~~~
choward
Ratings are way too arbitrary. I only give perfect scores in very rare
situations. 5 stars to me means I can literally not think of anything that
could be improved. I can always come up with a way something isn't perfect.

~~~
jbarberu
I totally agree. 4.6 as a cutoff is insane.

I regularly rate things 3 if it's good, 4 if great (on Google Maps).

What Uber should have is:

Rate your ride:

5 - great

4 - bad

3 - really bad

2 - awful

1 - shouldn't be allowed to drive ever again

~~~
mywittyname
All 5 star scales operate as follows:

5 - Good

4 - Terrible

3 - Terrible

2 - Terrible

1 - Terrible

~~~
jbarberu
That seems to have become the norm. To me that's just people misunderstanding
how to use a gradual scale.

I recently got a phone call from my apartment management after I left a bunch
of 3s and 4s on their annual review, they seemed distraught they got such bad
scores. From my point of view they were doing just fine. The fact that they're
not excellent in every regard shouldn't be surprising when I'm not paying
through my nose to live there, I'm perfectly happy with 3.5/5 since that's
what I'm paying for.

~~~
kerng
It's an ordinal scale with arbitrary meaning. 4 doesn't mean its twice as good
as a 2 star rating (there is no interval or ratio). It basically means 5 = all
okay! 4 and below there were issues of varying subjective degrees.

------
ghshephard
I am totally paranoid about my Uber Passenger rating - I've been stuck at 4.88
for the last year - so I don't know if they are updating it. I'll go out of my
way to wait outside in the rain so my Uber Driver doesn't have to wait, always
try and at least meet up with their level of chattiness, if not necessarily
encourage it. Obv be super polite, cheerful, and never, ever make the mistake
of asking an UberExpress driver to drop you off anywhere than the designated
point.

Still - stuck at 4.88, wondering what I can do better...

~~~
nkrisc
I can't tell if this is satire or just very sad.

~~~
spaceflunky
What I've always found interesting about Uber is that if you have one bad
night in San Francisco, it could adversely affect your ability to get a ride
in Bahrain several years later.

Sure big companies create efficiencies, but they also create Orwellian
situations like one above.

~~~
lotsofpulp
I doubt one bad night will affect your ability to get a ride, assuming you
have a decent amount of other trips “proving” you won’t be a problem, driver
or passenger wise.

~~~
spaceflunky
If you're already at say a 4.2, a 0 could really bring you down if you don't
ride a lot.

Also, IIRC drivers can and do reject rides for people at their predetermined
threshold. E.g. they will pass on a 4.0 waiting for a 4.5 or above (or
whatever the thresholds may be).

~~~
linuxftw
aka, always tip.

~~~
Scoundreller
But how much? Do I need to tip more if I go unmatched on a pool? Should I have
known I wouldn’t be matched at 4AM? If I get continuous matches/delays, can I
tip less? Was the driver just pretending to be interested in my life story, so
I should tip more because of that? Ahhhh, I liked it the way it was before...

~~~
linuxftw
20-25% is customary for service providers, especially if you're the only
client being served at one time. Never tip less than $3.

~~~
lotsofpulp
Ludicrous. 15% is customary for restaurant waiters, other than that there is
no need to tip. Can give barber a few dollars, doorman a certain amount at
Christmas. I prefer a society without tips, and would like to know what
something costs up front and know the vendor is providing their service to the
best of their ability.

------
esotericn
I personally find the idea that a driver has a 'star rating' kind of absurd.
It feels like the most pernickety thing.

If my taxi goes to where I want to go, doesn't take a silly detour for money,
and doesn't physically assault me, I'm good.

Outside of that, who cares, really? Where and who are these princesses that
really care if their cab driver is a 4.2 or 4.6?

I tend to rate basically everyone in service interactions 5 stars because the
fact they even turn up to their minimum wage job is a colossal privilege for
me to enjoy.

Like, would you rate your bus driver if you could? Your checkout operator?
Why? What possible benefit do you derive from that to outweigh the
embarassment (to _both_ parties)?

~~~
seem_2211
I agree with your point "I tend to rate basically everyone in service
interactions 5 stars because the fact they even turn up to their minimum wage
job is a colossal privilege for me to enjoy."

But one thing I like about rating things is that it gives you a way to flag
things that go badly. That's what sucked so much about taxis - you'd be ripped
off, forced to pay cash, order a car only to wait (and then it not arrive), or
wait out for 30 minutes to flag one down. Drivers would be rude, they'd talk
on their phones, they'd drive dangerously. And you'd have to grin and bear it
(I've experienced all of the above).

~~~
esotericn
Sure.

The correct way to deal with this is to have a 'report issue' button.

A drive is either acceptable or it's not. The whole gradient thing of rating a
driver that didn't smile much 4 out of 5 is just absurd.

~~~
Bartweiss
It's hard for me to imagine what a "four star Uber ride" looks like. I can
think of non-catastrophic issues; maybe the driver has their car details in
wrong and is hard to find, or urges you to get out somewhere not _that_ close
to the destination because it's a more convenient way to pick up another ride.
But a 4-star rating does nothing to solve that, it just adds a bit to the risk
of being fired somewhere down the line.

Given that, it just feels like a crummy affectation around a "report issue"
button. If a driver was actually doing something dangerous, when would I ever
want to handle that with one star instead of some actual context like "crossed
three lanes with no signal then ran a red light"?

------
kstenerud
Oh lovely.

I have a passenger rating of 3.9. I thought that was not too bad until I saw
what everyone else here has. I'm autistic, and am not very good at small talk,
so I just get in the car, keep quiet, and get out at the end (same as I've
always done with taxis).

Does this mean that I'm going to be banned soon for not being popular enough?

~~~
baby
Come on. Not being talkative does not give you a bad rating. I've never heard
of such a low rating tbh.

~~~
zippergz
Some drivers ABSOLUTELY do downrate passengers for "not being friendly" (aka
not wanting to blab the whole ride).

~~~
bena
Which is kind of bullshit.

The driver is the one providing the service. And in a service industry, you
_serve_ the customer what they want. Not the other way around. If the customer
doesn't want to talk, that's their prerogative.

~~~
Nextgrid
I agree with the idea that there should be a set of rules/guidelines as to
what’s expected of a passenger, however I disagree with the “customer is
always right” thing as it allows customers to be dicks (and trust me, a lot of
people abuse it) without the service provider being able to do anything about
it. At least with the rating system the playing field is levelled and both
sides have the opportunity to fight.

------
Accacin
Yikes, reading this comment section is pretty eerie. People discussing a
number that people who were paid for a service have given them.

I'm glad I've never really needed Uber, traditional taxis have their problems
but there's no scoring involved.

Edit - Missed a few words.

~~~
baby
This is great. If you are a shitty human being, and you are toxic to the
workforce, then you get banned.

Unfortunately people are shitty and this is a very much needed feature to
avoid abuse of drivers.

~~~
mindslight
Doing something about "those people" is a common refrain when justifying poor
ideas.

If the system were such that drivers would only leave negative feedback on
exceptionally bad encounters, with a specifically described complaint, it
could plausibly work as you state.

But as it stands, your "shitty human being" is likely to _not_ be correlated
with a poor average rating - imagine a run of the mill douchebag that talks
themselves up to everyone they meet, yet is an abusive asshole when it
benefits them. Such a person is likely to have a higher passenger rating than
a genuinely nice person who is socially awkward.

All systems calcify, become overprescriptive, and get gamed by people with
nothing better to do. This setup is ripe for that, and Uber's / Surveillance
Valley's general stance towards accountability doubles the worry.

~~~
baby
You're hypocrite because you want this feature for drivers but not riders.

------
whiddershins
This is a repeating pattern we need to address on a meta-level to avoid an
outcome that I think none of us think is optimal.

\- private company innovates a service that people use all the time \- private
company is so successful it displaces other, existing, methods of doing the
same \- private company becomes defacto monopoly in many cases \- private
company withdraws service from problem users \- those users are left with no
options

In the case of Uber, it is kind of obvious, as there are areas where they have
displaced (put out if business) numerous private cab and car service
companies.

Each step is a reasonable progression through our system. I don’t think anyone
should be blamed for each step.

But the final result is beyond Orwellian.

~~~
bpicolo
This has been a particular problem for the handicapped community as I
understand it, as the service speed for handicapped vehicles has been much
worse.

~~~
jakear
Not just that, but when I was on crutches my rating dramatically dropped. I
almost always had a friend with me to help out with storing the crutches and
getting in and out of the car, but regardless my rating fell at least a tenth.
Drivers probably didn’t like how I needed to grab onto their car to enter and
exit, or maybe that the crutches were in their car, or that the whole process
took a bit longer.

~~~
mywittyname
I do think drivers should be required to justify a <5 star rating for riders.

------
nilkn
Uber has went from something magical to a pretty stressful experience filled
with paranoia about how two people are silently judging each other for
perceived transgressions that don't fit with unstated and unwritten
expectations.

For instance, maybe a year ago or so, one day driving back from work my car
was acting up. I decided to avoid driving it for a day or two until I could
get it into a shop to be inspected. So the next morning I used Uber to get to
work. Now, I don't live that far from work -- it's maybe a 3-4 minute drive.
Evidently, some Uber drivers get pretty upset about short rides like that. I
got what I assume must have been a 1 star rating from the driver based on the
large impact it had on my rider score.

This and similar "incidents" have dropped my rating to 4.69. It was actually
lower not too long ago, at maybe 4.66 I believe, but I've been trying to get
it back up by giving oversized cash tips (I've always tipped in the past, just
usually digitally and in an amount that was more proportional, say 10-20%).
Given that 4.6 is the apparent cutoff, I suspect I'll be avoiding Uber as much
as I can going forward. I've always been nothing but kind and respectful --
though also quiet and reticent -- and I don't feel like worrying about this
anymore.

------
bravura
I'm a polite person, but I sometimes wear drag or makeup or gender non-
conforming outfits. I also use Uber frequently in areas that are less tolerant
than the Bay Area.

The last time me and my friends played a game of "share your Uber rating" on
Facebook, my Uber rating was lower than nearly all my friends. Coincidence?

------
garyclarke27
I instinctively find this utterly repulsive, evil, no different to China’s
social credit scoring. How can an average of 4.6 be meaningful for determining
fitness to ride - that’s a rediculous number. A mechanism for preventing truly
abusive or violent riders should be based on specific reporting and video
evidence, not a dumb aggregate score. I am generally against regulation if
possible, but this insane policy requires urgent remedy by regulators, Uber is
becoming an important part of our travel infrastructure, so requires
regulation just like rail, air etc.

------
jakear
I foresee a class action suit in the near future. Handicapped people take
longer to get in and out of the car. Uber’s rate them lower for it (this has
been my personal experience, Boston). With this, handicapped people are denied
services because of their handicap. Cut and dry violation of ADA (or whatever
it is that determines protected classes).

~~~
jdminhbg
I just don't think the cliff Uber will use for cutting off riders is going to
be "got 3* a few times for taking too long to get in and out of a car."
Drivers aren't quitting Uber because of those riders. They're going to be
cutting off people routinely rated 1* for being dangerously intoxicated,
ranting about minorities, making passes at drivers, etc.

~~~
jakear
The problem is that usually when a place decides to refuse service to a
person, there is a single person making that decision who can be held
accountable for it in the event an issue comes up with protected classes. What
people “think the cliff will be” is irrelevant, the problem is lack of
accountability. There is no way to show that they aren’t violating protected
statuses, and there is no accountability if they are.

------
jyap
The Black Mirror episode “Nosedive” comes to mind.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_\(Black_Mirror\))

“The episode is set in a world where people can rate each other from one to
five stars for every interaction they have, which can impact their
socioeconomic status”

Anecdotally it looks like I have a 4.75 rider rating which I was hit by a low
rating one time because the driver cancelled the ride probably because it
wasn’t very far or some other reason. Extending this to real world penalties
changes behavior. Ever do a customer interaction where the seller (say a car
dealer or a mortgage broker) tells you a survey will be coming and to please
rate then 5 stars?

------
z0r
I was banned from Uber for getting a refund on a ride that never came to pick
me up. 13 lifetime rides from 2015 until 2017. Their recruiters still reach
out to me on a regular basis.

------
CharlesDodgson
I wonder when a secondary market will open for highly rated Uber accounts. I
can see a future where you have to buy a 4.8 account so that you can get a
taxi at peak times.

~~~
hychoi99
That will be easily detectable by Uber

~~~
Verdex
Maybe or maybe not. If it is then it will just kick off an arms race.

Although, if Uber really knows what they're doing, then they'll allow the
buying and selling of accounts and then take a percentage of the sale.

------
harryf
The logical conclusion of this is eventually you end up with something like
China's social credit system ( [https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-
credit-system-p...](https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit-
system-punishments-and-rewards-explained-2018-4?r=US&IR=T) ).

If it has to happen, not sure which I like least - a system controlled by
private companies or a system controlled by government.

------
DanBC
And in three years we'll get leaked data showing there's a racial disparity in
ratings, and there'll be some lawsuit about the racist algorithm.

~~~
Verdex
The thing is though that the ratings are given by humans. No algorithms here.
Which means there are almost definitely going to be racial disparity. Even if
we assume the ultimate ideal of nobody who uses uber is a racist, cognitive
biases are a real thing and you're not going to be able to stamp them out in
the large.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Algorithms do not create racism out of thin air, all the racial preferences
are in the data. This didn't stop a bunch of projects from becoming crucified
in the media recently.

~~~
noelsusman
Algorithms don't run themselves. Humans chose to make them and chose to ignore
bias in their data.

------
mc32
This should be problematic. Uber should not be in the position of choosing who
is served by its business.

The whole “ratings” aspect is preposterous. There’s no independent way to
appeal a rating and get redress. It’s just as bad as 360 reviews—at least 360
reviews are a blunt tool to unload underperformers.

I think these app ratings systems are worse and should not be enough to ban a
passenger.

~~~
brk
I disagree, the ratings are averages, so outliers should be naturally smoothed
out. You should not need to appeal any 1 (or 2) bad ratings, if the rest of
your ratings keep your average up. However, if you are consistently being
rated such that your average is in the 3's, maybe you need to think about how
you conduct yourself along the way.

~~~
mc32
First, out of principle I have an issue with a middling rating of “3” being
“bad”. One should be “bad”, two needs improvement, etc.

That said, imagine if Walmart or Wholefoods banned customers because they had
middling ratings. If they shoplift, vandalize, (is in Uber’s case vomitus,
vandalizing, assault, etc.) They should follow with criminal complaints, etc.

My problem is with unilateral banning —not the banning in principle as there
are some good cases for it, but they are rare.

~~~
l4yao
The threshold for banning needs to be scrutinized for essential services.
There's potential to really hurt people's quality of life, particularly people
that are already disadvantaged. An arbitrary star rating scale with no clear
definitions is definitely not appropriate.

Public transit doesn't ban you if you're loud or smelly. Private rideshare
may. As rideshare takes over ridership from transit, mobility is removed from
loud and smelly people.

~~~
mywittyname
The threshold should be: a criminal complaint was filed.

------
harshalizee
If any Product Manager at Uber is remotely decent at their job, they'd pull
out the rating system for both drivers and riders ASAP. The system makes no
sense when everyone on both sides are forced to give a 5 star rating whether
you were treated like royalty or just been dropped off at your stop like a
countless other identical rides because the floor is at 4.6. Have an issue
with a driver/rider? Create a system where both can file a complaint with
proper reasoning to be provided, or else we can go about our day like
literally every other commercial transaction you have.

~~~
esoterica
Why does that make no sense? Why is the idea of giving 5 stars for an average
ride so offensive to you?

~~~
bena
Because it's at the extreme end of the rating system.

That turns the system into "average or better" and various states of bad.

That's a stupid system. It means 4 ratings are completely useless to everyone.
They don't really mean anything.

The entire system needs to be junked. It only turns the rating into currency.
Where drivers and riders use it to punish each other rather than be honest.

There needs to be only one rating "Bad ride". And it needs to be complicated
enough to reach that it can't be done as a reaction. From there, you can
devise a rating based on the number of bad ride flags you've gotten compared
to the rest of the population.

You do it compared to the population so it can't be done punitively. If
_everyone_ is spamming "bad ride", it doesn't matter. The system picks up on
it.

------
ProAm
I dont use Uber, when they say fall below a 4.6, is that on a scale of 1 - 10?
If Uber were smart they'd just charge these problem customers more money. it'd
help them financially and kill two birds with one stone.

I wish Uber would get rid of their executives/employees that also dont meet
this "Safety and Respect" policy they are imposing on users. The company has
such a reputation of being a deplorable company this is a really two-faced
policy. Do as I say, not as we do.

~~~
arthurcolle
It's a 1-5 scale

------
gumby
> riders ... are now at risk of deactivation if their rating falls
> significantly below a city’s average.

Of course that raises the average which therefore exposes a new cohort at the
bottom to being below the average.

I understand the idea of removing people who won't get picked up anyway, but
this seems like a bug.

Also: what factors go into a rating? I have relatives (thankfully not uber
drivers) who would downrate a customer solely on racial grounds.

------
hn_throwaway_99
So many comments in this thread I can't tell if they're satirical or not - I
feel like that episode of Black Mirror has less obviously outrageous
statements than this thread.

I think this goes to show the unintended negative consequences that can apply
when you take a generally good idea and start applying a "false precision"
rating system to it - Goodhart's law and all that.

------
DoofusOfDeath
I generally give 5 stars because giving a low rating (a) could cost me, by
leading the driver to retaliate with a low rating for _me_ , and (b) has
negligible benefit to me.

Note that I only use Uber when traveling on business to large cities. So my
policy described above always impacts me, but has never impacted any
particular Uber driver more than once.

~~~
anchpop
> I generally give 5 stars because giving a low rating (a) could cost me, by
> leading the driver to retaliate with a low rating for me, and (b) has
> negligible benefit to me.

Someone said elsewhere in this thread that the driver only sees your rating
after they've rated you. Although I'm not sure if it's possible for them to go
back and change their rating of you if they see you've rated them poorly.

~~~
ddenisen
I thought I've read somewhere that drivers don't actually see individual
riders' ratings of them, only the average over all riders.

~~~
bena
The problem is that the rating is a bargaining chip and there is no way around
that issue.

The rating _is_ currency and is being treated as such.

In all honesty, there should be a "Flag bad ride" and nothing else. No
positive ratings. If it was a good ride, you just do nothing. Your rating
should be a rolling average of the number of flags you've gotten compared to
the population with the more recent flags being weighted more.

That way if you're not flagged as often as most people, it won't matter. Your
rating will take a temporary dip. If you're flagged more often than average,
it means something.

And flagging a bad ride should be a fairly involved process to prevent people
from just using it on a whim. In order to flag a ride, you should have to
expend some effort for it.

------
silveira
I have a bad rating. I live close to the airport and from work. Short trips,
cheap rides. The drivers give me bad rating so they know to not pick me up,
cancel me, or call me asking my destination.

I complained to Uber several times, they always throw me a $5 or $10 credit,
but no solution. They also don't change my rating.

------
m463
> Common Carrier

...

> A common carrier is legally bound to carry all passengers or freight as long
> as there is enough space, the fee is paid, and no reasonable grounds to
> refuse to do so exist. A common carrier that unjustifiably refuses to carry
> a particular person or cargo may be sued for damages.

food for thought.

------
tenpies
What if we find that certain protected classes tend to have a lower rating
than others? Would Uber banning them constitute racism/religious
discrimination/*phobia? Would there be grounds for a class action if not an
outright discrimination suit?

------
jedberg
Uber needs to add an "I'm traveling with children" option. I had a 5 star
rider rating until I started traveling with the kids. The kids are quiet and
don't make a mess, but it takes longer to get in and out of the car, because
the law (and safety) dictate using car seats. There's not much I can do there.

I'd be perfectly willing to pay an extra fee when traveling with my kids that
goes straight to the driver to make up for the extra time and to incentivize
them to select me as a rider, because they would know they're getting the
"kids bonus". And then maybe I wouldn't get dinged on my rider rating just for
having kids with me.

~~~
aeternus
Yes, an "I'm travelling with dogs" option would also be quite useful. Some
drivers love them and some hate them and are paranoid their car is going to be
ruined the entire ride. It'd be better for both rider & driver if this
matching were done automatically.

Most riders would probably be fine with a small additional fee.

------
mring33621
Uh-Oh. My rider rating is 4.21. I use Uber maybe 15x a year, mostly on
vacation with my family. I would guess that my rating has taken a hit due to
my kids crying, kicking seats, Etc.

~~~
mring33621
I would like to note that I always tip well and give a 5 star rating to every
driver I use.

I have had a couple drivers cancel on me. One came within 50 yards of us at
the Disneyworld parking lot, then turned around and left, while we were waving
them down.

------
enitihas
The problem with Uber ratings is that most people use them as binary. A small
number of 1 starts will quickly bring your rating below average. I used to
take short rides to and from work daily for some time and it seems my rating
took a large hit. I frequently saw a lot of drivers giving me 1 stars. I know
a lot of people (riders), who frequently give 1 stars. I think it would be
better if Uber replaces the 5 start system with 3 or 2 stars.

------
benj111
Hmm, so say you get rid of the worst 10% of riders, because they're
"significantly below average". But that then pushes up the average, so you get
rid of another 10%. Repeat until everyone is top marks?

And its based on city, so if you get banned in your own city, could you get a
ride in your own city? What about the opposite?

What happens when you go on holiday to X, but aren't aware of cultural norm Y.
Are you then barred when you get home?

------
nneonneo
On Uber, drivers don’t have much choice not to take a toxic passenger
regardless of their rating, or they get dinged for excessive cancellation.
Passengers don’t have much choice not to take a badly rated driver or they get
dinged for cancelling. So, realistically, star ratings are only useful for the
platform to know which drivers or passengers are unwanted. Otherwise, star
ratings really aren’t much use. This is very unlike other platforms, like eBay
or Amazon, where users can choose who to buy goods/services from based on star
ratings.

Of course, this isn’t in support of this deactivation of riders at all - taxi
companies are regulated in most places so they can’t refuse a fare without
cause, and Uber really should be subject to similar regulation. Otherwise,
losing access to Uber could seriously disenfranchise certain populations. I’d
be happier if they would just ditch star ratings for passengers entirely, and
just rely on driver complaints - but this is probably wishful thinking.

------
Causality1
>For drivers, they face a risk of deactivation if they fall below 4.6

That's nuts. Why would I as a passenger have any reason to think giving a
driver 4 stars means I'm putting him at risk of being fired? Not only is this
losing good drivers their jobs but it's propagating a false narrative that all
Uber drivers provide flawless experiences.

------
lolsal
Why deactivate at all? Why not let drivers and riders set a threshold for each
side of the transaction?

~~~
gwbas1c
That would be more in line with drivers being independent contractors instead
of employees.

But, based on the article, it sounds like getting banned from Uber will be a
very rare occurrence.

~~~
seieste
They said it would affect people with scores <4.6, which is high enough to
catch a lot of people.

~~~
gwbas1c
That's for drivers, not for riders

------
lancewiggs
It’s not the average that matters - it’s the number of 1-stars or rides where
the passenger felt the driver was highly unacceptable. A driver might be
perfectly safe and polite to a majority of customers, but a danger to
vulnerable people or different groups of people. It would be good, for
example, the app to overweight low ratings from young women - with almost no
tolerance for 1-star ratings from that group.

It would also be good if the ride share companies share details of the most
scary drivers who have been ousted, so that they don’t get two or three shots.

~~~
linuxftw
> young women - with almost no tolerance for 1-star ratings from that group

Why should that be?

------
seeken
I assumed they were already doing that. I've seen several TV shows or movies
(recently Booksmart) where "I can't use uber because of my low passenger
rating" was used as a plot device.

------
actuator
Ugh! What happens when you are travelling to a different City? I have seen
different rating patterns in different cities where my rating goes up if I am
in a certain city for an extended period. So, I would assume that city has on
average a higher rider rating. Will they calculate my average from that city's
rides?

Also, if they are taking into account that city's ratings if I travel to a new
country what's the threshold number of rides to calculate my new rating? Will
I be randomly locked out of Uber in the middle of night in a foreign city.

------
perfunctory
A privately run social credit system?

~~~
satokema_work
it can't be bad, because it's not the government doing it!

------
Wowfunhappy
Wouldn't it make more sense to have some sort of "Flag rider for community
guidelines violation" button, as opposed to using star ratings for this?

Stars are subjective. Many people seem to think that "five stars" means a
normal ride with nothing to complain about. Personally, I think a normal ride
should be three stars—five stars should mean you went above and beyond in some
way. And I'm not even sure what that would be in the context of a customer.

------
willart4food
I LOVE IT! And this is just the beginning. Long time ago I predicted the yelp
for consumer, where company could refuse doing business with low-rated people,
or implement differential pricing, or different T&C (no returns, etc..)

There are many customers from hell, and the good customers are paying the
price. 80/20 rule rocks, any business could get rid of the 20% of customers
that create 80% of problems and make greater profts with less revenue.

------
Kephael
I get mediocre ratings from drivers when I take a shared ride and don't tip.
Rating passengers poorly for not tipping is broken functionality, we really
need self-driving cars and no drivers.

Historically I've always given drivers 5 stars, but now whenever I see my
rating dip I one star all my recent rides since Uber won't tell me which
driver did it. The less meaningful the broken rating system is the better.

------
ProxCoques
This reminds me of Evan Miller's post on one of (but by no means the only)
problem with star ratings: the numbers of ratings you have can skew the
meaning hugely if Score = (Positive ratings) − (Negative ratings):

[http://www.evanmiller.org/how-not-to-sort-by-average-
rating....](http://www.evanmiller.org/how-not-to-sort-by-average-rating.html)

------
village-idiot
In principle I agree; if I were to hypothetically verbally abuse my drivers,
ought I not eventually be banned? If I walk into a local bar and am an asshole
to the staff, eventually my photo will be put up next to the bouncer’s table
on the “do not admit” list.

Unfortunately pretty much any system Uber is going to create here will be
prone to some abuse, and subject to a lot of criticism.

------
ggm
So do we have an API to get our five-star rating in HN and can we start doing
"core wars" attacks on each other with up down voting?

------
billabong
Uber is in for a surprise. You don't rate and block people who pay you. This
idea is some AH PM having a brain fart inside Uber.

If I have the money I can pay anyone I like. Just a city wide car sharing
startup with money to burn, I will hop on to it.

One lawsuit away to bare all, the algorithm about ratings.

------
manigandham
5 star rating systems are utterly useless. There's no shared meaning in what
the stars actually mean and, as anyone who has ever been on Ebay has known for
decades, everyone ends up somewhere around 4.5 stars anyway.

Ratings should be computed based on a yes/no questions: Was the ride
successful or not, with optional follow-ups for issues like safety, damage,
cleanup, etc.

------
sct202
I hope that they don't start sharing user scores to other unrelated apps like
a credit score or ChexSystem risk score but for apps.

------
izzydata
Why is there a rider rating at all? If I'm paying someone to drive me
somewhere I don't care if they don't like me.

~~~
uwuhn
It's important for co-riders, in the case that you ever use pool. Co-riders
won't be matched directly based on their ratings, but they'll be indirectly
matched based on the algorithms that match riders to drivers based on rating.

------
xfitm3
I've sent a few friends home in Uber/Lyft and I'm always worried their
behavior will represent me. I'm not friends with jerks, but sometimes my
friends have had a little too much and need help getting home. I hope that we,
as a society, care about others above ratings. There are always two sides to
everything.

------
Animats
"Your social credit score is too low to use Uber. The nearest bus stop is 450m
northwest. Have a nice day."

~~~
jmtame
\- _deletes Uber_

\- _installs Lyft_

Wait, I did that a long time ago.

------
bondolo
I hope they start deactivating drivers who refuse service dogs or otherwise
repeatedly fail to abide by the agreed terms of service. Uber continues to
regularly ignore driver violations and fail to comply with the results of
rider class action agreements.

------
hychoi99
If there is a warning system in place, maybe let you know why you might be
getting low ratings, I don't see a problem with this.

If you're abusing a service and not following their general guidelines, they
have every right to remove you.

~~~
corbet
How confident are we that, for example, you don't get rated lower in a given
city of you're a member of the wrong ethnic group? Has anybody ever looked at
these ratings (for drivers too, I guess) with an eye toward determining which
biases exist?

~~~
hychoi99
Regardless, Uber should be able to detect those biases and hopefully correct
for them. It wouldn't look too good if a discriminated group start getting
kicked off

------
ProAm
If Uber is providing a platform for independent contractors how can they ban
people from using the platform at all? Shouldnt a user be able to accept a
driver based on their score?

------
toephu2
What is the path for redemption?

If you have a low rating, you become banned for life? Obviously if you have a
low rating you will work to improve it, but if you are banned, how can you
improve it?

------
whycombinater
I skimmed but is every comment in here trying to optimize how to implement a
social credit system, rather than expressing terror at a social credit system?

Quit posting and get back to coding surveillance AIs, the sooner Uber will
self-drive-arrest us to the Ministry of Love, while running over statistically
fewer people (in terms of count * credit...).

Once Uber Eats takes over, and the whole world's food supply is now based on
Social Credit Drones, if you say something like "I don't like women", you will
die of starvation. This is the utopia you're all building.

Please stop with tech.

~~~
frittig
The alternative is that Uber eats will have a competitor like Lyft food and
Lyft food will accept the customers that Uber eats won't. Uber eats will then
notice that a large portion of their potential customers are using a
competitor and will stop discrimination in order to increase profit

------
whenchamenia
How long until someone correleates this with protected_class and finds this
whole social rating system inherently problematic?

------
Paul-ish
Will this cause riders kicked off to shift to Uber's competitors, say Lyft,
thus poisoning those services for drivers?

------
limaoscarjuliet
If they start deactivating users with rating below average they will soon have
very few users left.

------
aaroninsf
The charter school debate just came to the privatization of "public"
transportation.

------
ogn3rd
Jokes on them, they were deactivated off my phone years ago.

------
pspeter3
Is there a way to view your passenger rating over time?

------
bjornlouser
In Russia, driver rates you!

------
acl777
puh-lez. I was "deactivated as a rider" LONG before this system was in place.

My (probable) offense: asking support why I couldn't use a discount code from
slickdeals.

------
vonseel
This reminds me of a Black Mirror episode....

------
freewilly1040
The overheated reactions in this thread are so bizarre. The only surprising
thing is the implication that _only now_ is it possible to get yourself banned
from Uber for bad behavior as a passenger.

~~~
Bartweiss
This headline confused me, because I thought this was already how Uber worked!
I knew drivers had a firing threshold and passengers had ratings; given that
drivers can't freely reject pickups, I don't understand what the point of
rating passengers was prior to this.

Of course, it was definitely possible to get yourself banned for bad behavior
before this, I've known people who were banned. It looks like the change here
is allowing algorithmic bans based only on score. I can see why people object
to that, although again I had always assumed it was the point of the scores.

