
India raises withdrawal limit as rupee anger mounts - kristianp
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37969604
======
linuxkerneldev
My understanding is that India's new rules on the high denomination notes was
intended to curtail corruption. This was a major topic of discussion in my
workplace as we have many Indian developers. Most of them were very proud that
this action was taken. So it was a surprise to me to read the significantly
negative tone in the BBC article. As a check, I googled "accuracy of BBC
articles on India" and encountered the following : [https://www.quora.com/Why-
does-BBC-publish-more-negative-new...](https://www.quora.com/Why-does-BBC-
publish-more-negative-news-about-India)

"It is true that channels like BBC and CNN have long tradition of
editorializing many issues of third world countries. So when any major
development happens in countries like India, Pakistan or China, they go on
with their usual views on the subject rather than looking at it through fresh
lenses."

~~~
manish_gill
Rather than attacking the messenger and correlating it with the anecdotal
evidence from the people you know, try to look at this objectively.

\- The white-collar middle class of course is lauding this move. Most of them
(us) use digital money, are educated, want to see the corruption eradicated
etc.

\- BUT, the majority of the population is poor, working class, not education
enough. India is still a cash-based economy. Poor people have all their
savings in either cash or gold. Women in India still hide money from their
husbands.

\- Business - Real Estate, Transport, what have you, is still done in cash.
Soon, the truckers who get paid in these denominations will stop getting paid,
and stop bringing in food to the cities. What then?

\- A kid has already died because the private hospital refused to accept the
currency.

\- There is talk going on about a possible Bank Run.

\- Most importantly, I firmly believe this was a political move to cripple his
opponents in the upcoming elections in the heartland states of India. He's
lost the last few state elections despite going to rallies himself. This is
him tightening his grip on the power.

\- Now we know why Mr. Raghuram Rajan left the RBI and has gone back to U
Chicago.

\- Edit: Oh yeah, the new note only contain one non-English script, devnagari.
The language and culture wars that took 2 decades to resolve will begin anew.

The privileged HN readers here who are like "I'll just order from Amazon" live
in such a bubble that it's hilarious. This is the most brazen and
irresponsible move that this govt has ever done. It's a draconian ruling that
in the name of progress, is going to (already has) ruin the lives of the poor
people of this country who have nothing to do with the daily corruption.

The middle class will hail Mr. Modi as a visionary, drinking his kool-aid,
click Purchase and go about its business. To call this a "temporary hiccup" is
callous and frankly, disgusting.

~~~
sanmon3186
> There is talk going on about a possible Bank Run.

Mind sharing any source? As per my layman knowledge, what's happening here is
opposite. Bank have received $30B [1] so far in deposits in last few days.

[1][http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/11/13/indias-
gr...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/11/13/indias-great-bank-
note-switch-appears-to-be-working-30-billion-in-rs-deposited-in-
banks/#37bd453078a5)

------
firasd
What's interesting is that Bollywood stars whose names were in the Panama
Papers are lauding this 'demonitisation' move... it kinda underscores that
real 'black money' isn't stuffed in mattresses, it's stored more cleverly in
different types of assets, companies, offshore accounts.

Raghuram Rajan, former Governor of the Reserve Bank of India, had this to say
a couple years ago about the idea: “Unfortunately, my sense is the clever find
ways around it. They find ways to divide up their hoard in to many smaller
pieces… I would focus more on tracking data and better tax administration to
get at where money is not being declared. I think it is very hard in this
modern economy to hide your money that easily.”
[http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/11/09/heres-what-
raghuram-...](http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/11/09/heres-what-raghuram-
rajan-thinks-of-currency-demonetisation/)

The fact that our Prime Minister’s fans are so enthusiastic and the move is
aimed at curbing ‘black money’ makes it hard to clearly take a stand against
this move, but I personally find it ill thought-​out. The fact that some
wealthy people are evading taxes by sticking cash in a cupboard somewhere
doesn’t mean that hundreds of millions of ordinary people should suddenly be
unable to buy milk or bread, damn.

~~~
0xmohit

      What's interesting is that Bollywood stars whose names were in
      the Panama Papers are lauding this 'demonitisation' move...
    

Those Bollywood stars are the ones who (1) own huge stretches of agricultural
land posing as _farmers_ , (2) own benami properties.

Perhaps _publicly_ supporting anything a ruling government says is their way
to demonstrate support towards the government and avoid any scrutiny.

~~~
somedangedname
"This (demonetisation) is not an end. I have more projects in mind to make
India corruption-free. …. We will take action against ‘benami’ property." \-
PM Modi [0]

Whether he takes further action and if those actions will be effective remain
to be seen.

[http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-
india/pm-n...](http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/pm-
narendra-modi-demonetisation-corruption-black-money-benaami-property-4373110/)

------
0xmohit
I am amazed the amount of selfishness we exhibit.

If _I_ am unable to pick up groceries for the lack of cash, I can surely
choose to order it online (using a credit/debt card). A vast majority of
Indians cannot.

A majority of Indians don't have access to banks either. They will be forced
to exchange their now illegal currency with the help of agents who would
charge them 50 to 60%.

Most of the ATMs are out of cash. There are huge queues at banks; most of them
are giving away Rs. 2000/= bills. Amusingly, if you were to give the new bill
to a shopkeeper chances are that he'd refuse to tender the change back as the
closest denomination to that is a Rs. 100/= bill.

Statistics reveal that only 6% of the black money is in the form of cash. As
such, the argument of declaring higher currency notes as illegal tender in
order to curb black money in unconvincing.

~~~
Manishearth
> A majority of Indians don't have access to banks either.

Forget banks, many don't have _ID_. Ration cards exist, but those are tied to
your household so you may not easily be able to get access to your ration card
(say if you're in a city with family -- and ration card -- back home). In case
of estranged women it's even hader.

Without ID they can't exchange larger amounts. It's also hard to create a new
bank account on short notice without this.

My mother once helped a young woman set up a bank account. She had come to
Mumbai to find work, and used to live at her aunt's place, and her aunt would
hold her money for her (but skim off it). Most such people keep their savings
in cash someplace "safe", though some use post office accounts. Anyway, the
process was arduous. Her name was garbled on her family's ration card, and
they needed the original, which was back at the village. This took forever to
sort out.

This is going to be hard to work through for a few. Especially those with
lower income who keep most of their life savings in cash.

~~~
kamaal
Actually dealing with banks is a luxury which Urban Indians assume is
available for everyone. Its not.

Most banks are huge red tape in India and corruption is quite common. Even to
dispense cash/loans a lot of times local rural banks ask for bribe. Which is
why most people go a distance to avoid dealing with banks.

This problem was addressed by co-operative societies to an extent, but it
doesn't scale though.

Debit/Credit/Electronic transfers are for the privileged in India.

~~~
mindentropy
I completely agree. We can see the full picture of it now. The banks are such
a pain and since most of the banks are nationalized the employees are a real
pain. The post offices do not even have proper facilities to store large sums
of money and there are cases where rats have eaten currency in lockers!

------
goombastic
Ahh, it's the BBC.

I think we have reached a point in journalism where it has now become
important to identify who is reporting it as well. At this rate we will need a
simple content bias/color code plugin for different sites.

As an Indian, I have found that the BBC has been overly pessimistic about
India especially on the web. Their story selections, headlines, and the voices
listed as sound bites in the stories support the "downplay theme" for India.

~~~
gozur88
>I think we have reached a point in journalism where it has now become
important to identify who is reporting it as well.

We were always at that point even if not many people realized it. The
difference is with electronic media you're not depending solely on
organizations like the BBC for information.

------
wav-part
My initial gut reaction is/was, a costly political stunt to fullfill an
election promise. But I will wait when we have figures about cost to economy
vs additional tax revenue. It also should be taken into account that Rupee now
is even more unlikely to become a global currency.

Instead of money going directly to corrupt bureaucrats now it will directly
going to politicians to be spent on unsustainable welfare
(subsidies/reservations/PSUs) which would get them even more votes clamouring
for more welfare. Ah dont you f __king cry when they up the sales tax 200% on
your favourite gadgets in the name of the poors. All thanks to this cashless
/surveillance there will be no escape.

~~~
0xmohit
I suppose that if election promises were to be fulfilled then the government
might have chosen to act upon those stashing billions of dollars in tax havens
abroad.

~~~
wav-part
I find even the concept of income tax injustice at massive scale. But I have a
feeling that this was a least costly way to shut up a socialist population.
Assuming Modi is not just another socialist and this is the last of it we are
seeing.

------
webbrahmin
A middle class Indian here. Average Indian is facing some problem. Here is a
list.

1\. If someone has cash in hand for emergencies then he/she has to stand in a
bank queue for 2-3 hours to deposit it into a bank account. 2\. One has to
stand in a bank queue for 2-3 hours to exchange old currency for new or to
withdraw Rs 10,000 from one's account. Rs 10,000 is sufficient money to take
care of basic needs for about 15 days.

3\. There is a shortage of lower denomination notes. RBI received 5 million Rs
500 denomination notes yesterday. It will heal ease the problem.

I live in the National Capital Region. I have faced no problem at all. I am
doing my grocery purchase online. Urban India pays it's utility bills online.
There are a number of e-wallet solutions which have made online transactions
easy.

I am not aware about the inconveniences faced by Indians living in rural
areas. Economy in rural India is cash based. But since I have my roots in
rural India I have seen many transactions happening through informal credit
channel. It is not uncommon for a worker to get paid once every 3-4 months.
Migrant workers often get payed by contractors at the end of their contract.
The actual impact is not earth shattering.

There is a high decibel political noise around the whole thing. But as someone
who has paid his taxes honestly his entire life, I welcome and support this
move.

~~~
0xmohit

      Average Indian is facing some problem.
    

Some? I've heard of some cases wherein a _funeral_ was deferred for lack of
cash.

It affects the dead too: [http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-
states/demonetis...](http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-
states/demonetisation-affects-dead-and-alive-alike/article9335280.ece)

Baby dies as parents had no cash to buy medicines in Vizag:
[http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/visakhapatnam/Baby-d...](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/visakhapatnam/Baby-
dies-as-parents-had-no-cash-to-buy-medicines-in-
Vizag/articleshow/55408981.cms)

Currency ban: Kids couldn't attend dad's funeral:
[http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/Currency-b...](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/Currency-
ban-Kids-couldnt-attend-dads-funeral/articleshow/55365905.cms)

Marriages to moksha, all adjourned:
[http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/Marriages-...](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/Marriages-
to-moksha-all-adjourned/articleshow/55406394.cms)

------
essdas
I think the BBC has completely missed the sentiment on the ground. There is
widespread support for this. Every single person I've spoken to in the long
queues near ATMs have expressed that they don't mind the inconvenience because
it will help the country.

~~~
sundarurfriend
Yes, I personally have been very surprised by how positive the reaction has
been. My home has a lot of small shops around ("chaiwalla" tea booths, tiny
grocery "kirana" shops, little idly shops, lots of roadside vendors, etc.),
and the reaction has been almost universally positive. There's of course a bit
of grumbling about cash being hard to find in the first two days, but even
those come in a manner similar to how one might complain about rain - taken as
an inevitable small nuisance in the larger scheme of things.

One part of the explanation is that these are the same folks that often deal
with the small politicians and exploitative moneylenders - so now, seeing
these corrupt people suffer greatly from this move, they're full of heartfelt
praise for the central govt. At least half the praise I hear has been in the
form of "you should have seen that politician's face" or "that moneylender is
roaming all over town trying to change his black money".

~~~
mindentropy
The problem is that that sentiment will turn sour pretty soon as the supplies
will get affected badly. Most of the truck drivers which supply essential
goods are paid in cash by their owners. Think what will happen if the payment
is deferred.

It might be very sad to say but a lot of these shops exists because of the
black money. Some are mere shopkeepers whose owners would have opened these
shops to invest their money. Now think what would happen when their cash gets
sucked away. There would definitely be a huge loss of jobs.

If real estate is hit badly then a lot of laborers would be jobless overnight.
A lot of projects would have to be stalled.

Presently there is an uneasy calm and some sort of schadenfreude but when the
dust settles the consequences will not be good.

------
msravi
I think the BBC is missing some of these images:

[https://twitter.com/NileshShah68/status/797097848470929412](https://twitter.com/NileshShah68/status/797097848470929412)

[https://twitter.com/gbhimani/status/797021076182077440](https://twitter.com/gbhimani/status/797021076182077440)

[https://twitter.com/_anujsinghal/status/796348883362283524](https://twitter.com/_anujsinghal/status/796348883362283524)

[https://twitter.com/lady_gabbar/status/796269539067457536](https://twitter.com/lady_gabbar/status/796269539067457536)

[https://twitter.com/jhunjhunwala/status/793799136592011264](https://twitter.com/jhunjhunwala/status/793799136592011264)

~~~
parthdesai
It's BBC. Can't expect anything from positive from them when it comes to
India.

------
msravi
The partisan nature of this piece is amazing. Contrary to what is presented
here, the whole exercise was one that was brilliantly executed, and one that
has caused minimal disruption. See this:
[http://swirlingtea.blogspot.in/2016/11/demonetization-
why-20...](http://swirlingtea.blogspot.in/2016/11/demonetization-
why-2000_13.html)

------
snowwindwaves
Canada got rid of $1000 bills in the year 2001 to combat crime and money
laundering.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawn_Canadian_banknotes#....](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawn_Canadian_banknotes#.241.2C000)

------
known
I appreciate Modi regime for their efforts to curb black money, though they
failed to keep up their poll promises.

Before elections, we'll give OROP. After elections, we cannot do it;

Before elections, we'll clean GANGA. After elections, we cannot do it;

Before elections, we'll catch DAWOOD. After elections, we cannot do it;

Before elections, we'll solve KASHMIR. After elections, we cannot do it;

Before elections, we'll bring KOHINOOR. After elections, we cannot do it;

Before elections, we'll prosecute VADRA. After elections, we cannot do it;

Before elections, we'll prosecute DIKSHIT. After elections, we cannot do it;

Before elections, we'll build RAM-MANDIR. After elections, we cannot do it;

Before elections, we'll scrap ARTICLE370. After elections, we cannot do it;

Before elections, we'll end DYNASTY politics. After elections, we cannot do
it;

Before elections, we'll create VIDARBHA state. After elections, we cannot do
it;

Before elections, we'll give special STATUS to AP. After elections, we cannot
do it;

Before elections, we'll disclose NETAJI documents. After elections, we cannot
do it;

Before elections, we'll bring COMMON-CIVIL-CODE. After elections, we cannot do
it;

Before elections, we'll DEPOSIT 15 lakhs in your a/c. After elections, we
cannot do it;

Before elections, we'll prosecute SIKH-RIOT culprits. After elections, we
cannot do it;

Before elections, we'll bring BLACK-MONEY in 100 days. After elections, we
cannot do it;

Before elections, we're the HONEST. After elections, 50% Ministers have
CRIMINAL cases;

------
known
If you do not support demonetization [https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/great-
indian-demonetization-w...](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/great-indian-
demonetization-why-should-we-struggle-jyothish-jayan)

otherwise
[http://www.thecitizen.in/index.php/NewsDetail/index/8/9164/M...](http://www.thecitizen.in/index.php/NewsDetail/index/8/9164/MasterCard-
Modi)

------
known
13 ways how Indians can convert black money
[http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/11/13/13-ways-in-which-
ind...](http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/11/13/13-ways-in-which-indians-will-
convert-their-black-money-into-whi/)

------
andrewvijay
This is a huge pain in the ass for absolutely no gains whatsoever. Around 20
fucking people have died because of this very scheme. The worst thing is that
there are so called educated fools down voting criticizing comments here even
after witnessing all this mess and chaos. Absolute shambles!

~~~
andrewvijay
UPDATE: 25 fucking people dead by now. Within 6 days. Refer this
[http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/11/15/demonetisation-
death...](http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/11/15/demonetisation-death-toll-
rises-to-25-and-its-only-been-6-days/)

------
known
"Media does not spread free opinion; It generates opinion" \--Oswald, 1918
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_West](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_West)
VERIFY and TRUST;

------
andrewvijay
It was said that it was to remove black money from the market but the
percentage of cash in black money is only 6%. The remaining are assets mostly
outside of India. And such a major move affecting a billion people must have
been well thought out to avoid the chaos. There have been couple of deaths
because of this. Two children were dead because docs refused to accept old
currency for admission in hospitals. But questioning this is being termed as
anti national. Hope this fake nationalism stunts end soon.

------
swatkat
Ah! Yet another _" anti-India"_ article by BBC ;) This is not the first time
BBC is doing it (can we call it as _" propaganda"_?) ;) I've seen a few
firsthand instances of people who hoarded illegal cash impacted by this
demonetization move. Yesterday, somebody even dumped wads of cash into a lake
in Bangalore (near KR Puram area).

I suggest people here to read this thread:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/5c195e/do_you_guys_k...](https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/5c195e/do_you_guys_know_any_people_hoarding_lots_of/)

~~~
mindentropy
It is all funny anecdotes. Good for a laugh and some happy revenge.

Now remember that not all have just hoarded the cash. Many have actively
invested and this investment actually goes to the poorer sections of the
society as daily wages. What would happen if that cash is sucked out? The rich
class can live without the investment but the poor have no way to go as they
suddenly find themselves jobless.

Next the government will throw cash around with policies such as NREGA to help
the poor and then again you have all this money sloshing around in the economy
albeit with higher denomination and newer currency.

