
Symbols Found in Ice Age Caves Across Europe (2015) - da02
https://digventures.com/2015/12/these-32-symbols-are-found-in-ice-age-caves-across-europe-but-what-do-they-mean/
======
jbotz
For more substance and less self-promotion, see her master's thesis here:
[http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.929...](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.929.671&rep=rep1&type=pdf)

There's also a better graphical overview of the signs here:
[https://frontiers-of-
anthropology.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/ge...](https://frontiers-of-
anthropology.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/geometric-signs-from-genevieve-
von.html?m=1)

~~~
Sniffnoy
Non-mobile link for the latter: [https://frontiers-of-
anthropology.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/ge...](https://frontiers-of-
anthropology.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/geometric-signs-from-genevieve-von.html)

(Also the former link seems to be broken?)

------
randomdrake
Maybes mods could add (2015). Seems little more than a regurgitation of the
TED talk it links to multiple times entitled “Why are these 32 symbols found
in ancient caves all over Europe?” which can be found here:

[https://www.ted.com/talks/genevieve_von_petzinger_why_are_th...](https://www.ted.com/talks/genevieve_von_petzinger_why_are_these_32_symbols_found_in_ancient_caves_all_over_europe/transcript)

~~~
da02
You're right. I still thought it was ok to post the link since it does include
a nice graphic of the symbols at the start of the article.

------
ramgorur
Not only across Europe, they are more or less similar all over the world.

[https://visual.ly/community/infographic/science/prehistoric-...](https://visual.ly/community/infographic/science/prehistoric-
writing-stone-age-jottings)

~~~
jameskegel
I was ready to write this off as early humans ancestors depicting basic shapes
of objects in their surroundings, until I got to the upside down and right
side up “brush shapes”. I’m not sure what that would mean, something
descending and ascending with some type of force or vitesse?

~~~
anateus
A lot of the signs can be seen as symbols that are easy to draw with the
hands. For example, there's the 5-dots and 6-dots symbols. Those are: "every
finger of one hand" and "three fingers from each hand". The brush shapes are
"bring all fingers together". There may very well be a communicative aspect to
the symbols, but I think they were derived from decorative primitives that are
kinesiologically-determined.

~~~
mirimir
That would help account for consistency over place and time.

But meaning? I'm guessing something like "# was here".

~~~
tritium
Possibly ad-hoc way finding, and reference points when lost, to help detect if
you're going in circles, or if a change of direction is necessary.

If there are N number of confusing junctions, it would require the same number
of markings as a unique mnemonic device to register the steps to escape the
confusing area, and jog one's memory of how directions were negotiated the
last time.

~~~
sbmassey
Or perhaps locations of good sources of food, shelter and so forth

~~~
kthejoker2
Ancient hobo signs makes a lot of sense, wonder which one says "Tell pitiful
story for food."

------
teh_klev
Seems to be offline right now, here's a cached version:

[https://archive.is/oqGa5](https://archive.is/oqGa5)

------
mr_overalls
One explanation for the universality of these symbols is that they are entopic
images - artifacts of the eye and visual system that are perceived during
trance/psychedelic states. Maybe associated with a widespread shamanic
religion of this time period?

[http://entheology.com/research/entoptic-imagery-and-
altered-...](http://entheology.com/research/entoptic-imagery-and-altered-
states-of-consciousness/)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind_in_the_Cave](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind_in_the_Cave)

------
mc32
Haven't watched the linked TED video, but this:

>"The fact that the same 32 symbols are repeated across sites that span 30,000
years and an entire content is nothing less than mindblowing. "

Is both quite intriguing (if implication is true) but also raises the question
of authenticity (if we're unkind) or at least accurate dating (if we're
charitable).

Maybe the video goes into detail. (Apparently, it's claimed that upwards of
60% of the symbols/signs were expressed during the 30 thousand year span
--which seems pretty incredible. I mean, the invariability seems somewhat
preternatural.)

------
gpvos
Slashdotted. Archive link:
[http://web.archive.org/web/20171227051630/https://digventure...](http://web.archive.org/web/20171227051630/https://digventures.com/2015/12/these-32-symbols-
are-found-in-ice-age-caves-across-europe-but-what-do-they-mean/)

~~~
Jaruzel
We call it 'The hug of death' here.

~~~
chrisweekly
'slashdotted' works just as well (and is even preferred by many)

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Except that Slashdot doesn't have a userbase capable of bringing a server to
it's knees anymore.

~~~
Fnoord
Hardly a unique phenomenon. In society we have so many terms as a nod to their
(deceased) inventor(s), or as a nod to a (deceased) person of interest.

~~~
eesmith
"She had her moment in the limelight." \- "Limelight" hasn't been used for
stage lighting (or anything like it) in over a century.

"The application is tied up in red tape." \- "Red tape" as a binding for
important documents is now little used outside of handful of places.

"The company bigwigs fired half the staff." \- Once upon a time, people in
authority wore wigs as a symbol of authority. Now it's limited to a few legal
and parliamentary systems; CEOs and the like don't wear them.

------
pygy_
The signs painted in caves have been preserved to this day but at the time I
guess that they were also used outside, on rocks and on trees, and that they
were lost to time...

With perhaps the exception of dance, the classic arts really are prehistoric
mnemonic/communication devices which were made obsolete when writing was
invented.

They were so useful though that craving them has been carved in our genes, and
we still like a good story/song to this day.

~~~
marnett
I had never thought about song, story, and dance in a genetic sense before as
you laid out here. Thanks for sharing that.

------
senatorobama
Reminds me of the also unbroken Indus script. With all this computational
power, I'm surprised that we haven't been able to crack ancient proto-writing.

~~~
mistaken
It's also similar to the Old Hungarian alphabet. Some of the symbols seem to
be the same.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Hungarian_alphabet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Hungarian_alphabet)

~~~
friendly_chap
That was my impression as well (I am likely biased - I'm Hungarian). What's
your nationality if I may ask?

------
tzs
> Among the elaborate horses, bulls, bears and hunters, there are some other
> rather less captivating designs – small geometric motifs, etched onto the
> walls. Until now, they’ve not received much attention.

I would have expected the opposite.

Someone drawing animals and hunters could easily be explained simply by them
drawing what they see everyday.

Those other things, though, are harder to explain as merely drawings of things
they see.

~~~
michaelsbradley
Not hard to explain: they were simply drawing the glow discharges they saw in
the sky. The growing body of theory–research isn't well known yet; for an
introduction, see Peratt's groundbreaking paper from 2003:

 _Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current, Z-Pinch Aurora as
Recorded in Antiquity_

[http://plasmauniverse.info/downloadsCosmo/PerattTPSv31-2003c...](http://plasmauniverse.info/downloadsCosmo/PerattTPSv31-2003clr.pdf)

------
timonoko
I bet the omnipresent "Sun"-symbol is removed from results, to conform with
German Laws and general sentiments. You can find it on Nordic Runes and
Tibetan tapestry and American Indian tepee decorations. And it always means
"Sun" or "Good Luck" or something positive.

Except after 1945 it does not.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
> And it always means "Sun" or "Good Luck" or something positive. Except after
> 1945 it does not.

The swastika was already quite firmly linked with fascism in Europe by the
late 1920s.

~~~
Ralfp
> The swastika was already quite firmly linked with fascism in Europe by the
> late 1920s.

It wasn't. If anything, it was linked to preservation of tradition and
conservatism. I know from my grandparents, who are Polish Highlanders, that it
also doubles for holy cross, and thus was used in sacral contexts or on
tombstones:

[https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/1095605...](https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/10956059_1081186278573980_3615515725378902038_n.jpg)
[https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/76313_3...](https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/76313_398757823544879_1848103189_n.jpg)
[https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/1274539...](https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/1274539_645443875496433_1826066696_o.jpg)

European fascism builds on pride and glorification of national symbols, and
reuse of those. For example here's Polish Fascists symbol that dates to '30s:

[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Green_flag_with_symb...](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Green_flag_with_symbol_of_falanga.svg)

This is arm holding sword, and symbol was created as replacement for original
symbol that was legendary sword that first polish king used to strike the
gates of Kiev as he was establishing borders of first Polish Kingdom.

Likewise symbol of Italian fascists was the Fasces (notice ), roman symbol for
power and rule of their government.

Spanish fascists used crests of their past royal family, the Falanga:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bandera_FE_JONS.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bandera_FE_JONS.svg)

Here's Croatian fascists symbol:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Usta%C5%A1e_symbol.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Usta%C5%A1e_symbol.svg)

Swastika was something that Germans adapted for their fascist movement, and it
spread from there after the war, but saying that before war the swastika was
already firmly linked with fascism is not true.

~~~
urig
The Nazi party adopted the hakenkreuz (swastika) in 1920. So yes, swastikas
were associated with fascism long before WW2.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Nazism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Nazism)

~~~
Mediterraneo10
Thank you for understanding my point, which wasn't that the swastika was a
longtime fascist symbol, but rather that the Nazi Party had accomplished its
transformation into one by the late 1920s.

------
Raphmedia
This really reminds me of "hobo signs" :
[http://www.angelfire.com/folk/famoustramp/signs.html](http://www.angelfire.com/folk/famoustramp/signs.html)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo#Hobo_signs_(symbols)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo#Hobo_signs_\(symbols\))

------
mmjaa
Every time I see something like this, I'm reminded of one of my favourite
crackpot/artists of all time, Stanislaw Szukalski and his mad theories about
"Protong", the proto-language of a civilisation that was destroyed by a
cataclysm some 65,000 years ago, which - according to him - was the language
of the first human civilisation across the globe, and which survived - barely
- as a 'forgotten remembered language' in ancient pre-historic glyphs.

In a nutshell, "Protong" was the global human language that was spoken across
the globe - until the planet suffered an enormous 'flood-like' cataclysm that
split this civilisation into shards and pieces around the world. The survivors
of this cataclysm clawed their way back to land, and in an effort to warn
future humans of the danger, encoded many of the glyphs of Protong into their
cave art. Per Szukalski this can be demonstrated by the fact of many common
glyphs among a wide distribution of different cave paintings - the fact that
the 'neck ring' is a key element in many paintings vastly separated by
geographic distances, and the significance of such glyphs as a 'cup or water
vessel', and so on.

Szukalski believed he was able to decipher these glyphs in a way that hadn't
occurred to researchers before him, and he made an entire philosophy out of
his personal discoveries.

While I still remain highly sceptical of his ideas - and I am especially
dissuaded by the racist form of this philosophy that later evolved from
Szukalskis explorations into ancient/pre-history art (Zermatism, the idea that
the human species is in competition with another race, "Yeti-like", which
brings about perpetual downfall among all "noble societies"), I nevertheless
remain fascinated by the idea of using "Protong" as a means of appreciating
the meaning of pre-history. From the Programmers Mind, its kind of like
discovering the mnemonics for machine code, after having spoken nothing but
Lua.

So, I do wonder if he wasn't onto something with the idea of Protong being an
underpinning to all ancient/pre-historic art forms. If this sort of thing is
of interest - and I mean it in the most casual sense, because I have
absolutely no interest in promoting the racist Zermatism - then I encourage HN
readers to have a look at Protong. The book on the subject "Behold - The
Protong!!" is a wonderful coffee-table item, if you care for these things. I
don't know of any other on-line resources which cover Protong - its a kooky
subject indeed, so this is very surprising to me - but I do encourage the
casually-interested to have a glance. It may - or may not, indeed - provide a
bit of context to understanding pre-historic cave art. As a fan of this, I
think its neat.

[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2118037.Behold_the_Proto...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2118037.Behold_the_Protong)

More on Szukalski here:

[https://www.kookscience.com/arch/Zermatic.html](https://www.kookscience.com/arch/Zermatic.html)

Warning: definitely kook science, but a fascinating though experiment
nevertheless.

~~~
observation
I had no idea Yetis were into Communism! :-)

Thanks for this, it makes entertaining reading on a cold winter's day in front
of a roaring fire.

~~~
mmjaa
It is, indeed, a rabbit-hole. But I like the Protong bit personally!

------
cptkoons
To under exaggerate this time, one rectangle is drawn inside a cave and
another rectangle is drawn inside another cave 1000 years later. 25,000 years
later modern man finds these rectangles drawn on the walls and is astonished?
Is it not just kinda a given that before speech communication there was drawn
image communication (like point at images and grunt)? I mention the 1000 year
gap only to point out that they probably moved around and other groups took
over caves that were inhabited by other groups before...thus why there are
mimicked across europe. ((25000 also being just an arbitrary number for
discussion purpose because im not an anthropologist or geologist))

~~~
coldtea
> _Is it not just kinda a given that before speech communication there was
> drawn image communication (like point at images and grunt)?_

No, not really a given at all.

And those are not images -- they form a symbolic language. If we're merely
talking about "point to images and grunt" it would concern drawings of animals
and stuff, not abstract symbols. Those are already a kind of language.

And even if it was, having the same stock library of symbols used more or less
across continents and ages is important enough in itself.

------
amelius
What are the corresponding Unicode code points?

~~~
shervinafshar
Here's a try:

Aviform: ︷ U+FE37 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL LEFT CURLY

Circle: ◯ U+25EF LARGE CIRCLE

Claviform: 1 U+0031 DIGIT ONE (Or anything confusable with it [1])

Cordiform: U+2661 WHITE HEART SUIT

Crosshatch: # U+0023 NUMBER SIGN

Cruciform: × U+00D7 MULTIPLICATION SIGN (or anything confusable with it [2])

Cupule: U+26AC MEDIUM SMALL WHITE CIRCLE

Dot: · U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT (or anything confusable with it [3])

Half Circle: ◡ U+25E1 LOWER HALF CIRCLE

Line: ⎯ U+23AF HORIZONTAL LINE EXTENSION

Negative Hand: U+1F91A RAISED BACK OF HAND

Open Angle: ⦣ U+29A3 REVERSED ANGLE

Oval: ⭖ U+2B56 HEAVY OVAL WITH OVAL INSIDE

Positive Hand: U+270B RAISED HAND

Quadrangle: ▭ U+25AD WHITE RECTANGLE

Serpentiform: U+1F40D SNAKE

Spiral: 1F300 CYCLONE

Tectiform: ⤉ U+2909 UPWARDS ARROW WITH HORIZONTAL STROKE

Triangle: ▽ U+25BD WHITE DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE

Zigzag: ⦚ U+299A VERTICAL ZIGZAG LINE

Edit: formatting.

[1]:
[https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=1&r=IDNA2...](https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=1&r=IDNA2008)

[2]:
[https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=%C3%97&r=...](https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=%C3%97&r=IDNA2008)

[3]:
[https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=%C2%B7&r=...](https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=%C2%B7&r=None)

------
meri_dian
All the symbols are simple, I wouldn't be surprised if many children around
the world scribble similar signs while doodling. It seems likely to me that
the signs arose in disparate locations through sheer coincidence instead of
through an active Paleolithic common culture or a miraculously preserved
memory of some ancient heritage - the ultimate source of the symbols - shared
by far flung groups.

------
istec
Hashtag was popular back then :)
[https://imgur.com/OUDrRjy](https://imgur.com/OUDrRjy)

~~~
tzahola
The had to invent it, otherwise they wouldn't be able to write shell scripts.

------
brango
The mainstream view of our history has some massive unexplained mysteries. For
example the ability of ancient people to work with massive slabs of stone in a
way we'd struggle to do now even with modern machinery. Not just the Pyramids
and Stonehenge, but the stone foundations at Cuzco and also Baalbeck temple
which apparently has foundational stones estimated to weigh 1000 tons.

~~~
justin_vanw
This is just 'ancient astronaut' nonsense. If you gave modern people some
incentive to move big stones around without heavy machinery they would figure
out how to do it in a couple of months. It's just not hard to do, and people
have been moving much larger pieces of stone during recorded history, so we
know the techniques used perfectly well.

Lots of the obelisks in Rome are far larger than any prehistoric stones moved
or worked, and we know how they did it and it's impressive. Impressive isn't
the same as an unexplained mystery.

~~~
brango
Who mentioned ancient astronauts?

Archeologists don't seem to be as blasé as you about this:

> Nothing puzzles archaeologists so much as impracticality, and although the
> karst topography of Baalbek demands strong foundation stones, and although
> one big stone is easier to move than many smaller stones, the pillars
> holding up the temple’s podium, van Ess says, are bigger than they need to
> be. In fact, Baalbek is one of a series of ancient projects that are under
> rigorous study by the Germans for being unnecessarily large.

[https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/baalbek-myth-
megalit...](https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/baalbek-myth-megalith)

~~~
Someone
Many gothic cathedrals still standing also are stronger than they have to be.
Reason? Building was still guesswork at the time and the ones built too weak
have long collapsed.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauvais_Cathedral](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauvais_Cathedral)
is an edge case.

So, it may be lack of structural engineering knowledge. They also may have
intended to build something bigger, but realised they ran out of time or
money, or the “something bigger” collapsed, and this is a rebuild, reusing
parts.

------
cptkoons
Because humans existed and traveled for hundreds of thousands of years (beyond
what most average modern folks can conceptualize). We don't fully give ancient
peoples enough credit cause they didn't completely fuck the environment up and
didn't leave much evidence. Not at all shocking...only our true ignorance
being shocking.

------
jccalhoun
could anyone find actual pics of the symbols on cave walls? I spent a few
minutes looking and couldn't find any.

------
brudgers
They immediately reminded me of "Hoboglyphs",
[https://weburbanist.com/2010/06/03/hoboglyphs-secret-
transie...](https://weburbanist.com/2010/06/03/hoboglyphs-secret-transient-
symbols-modern-nomad-codes/)

------
tomcooks
Why link a blogpost when you can link the research itself, or its presentation
on ted

------
dalbasal
History keeps getting older..

~~~
sd8dgf8ds8g8dsg
Technically, history begins with the writing system, around 6000 years ago
[1]. Before that is what we call "pre-history".

1: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform_script#Proto-
literat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform_script#Proto-
literate_period)

------
yipopov
Top 32 cave symbols that will blow your mind!

What these researchers found in caves will amaze you!

32 sure signs you're in a European ice age cave!

Discover these cave-dwelling secrets that your real estate developer doesn't
want you to know!

~~~
avip
What your archaeologist doesn't know about cave symbols can KILL YOU

~~~
observation
You may be interested in the podcast audio drama "The White Vault".

It's very well produced.

------
pvaldes
Michelin Guide for the modern caveman?

------
fsiefken
32 = with 5 finger chording or gestures you can get every symbol, should be
enough for everybody

------
ivanb
I find it suspicious that the set of the most common symbols doesn't contain a
dick. Why wouldn't the most common modern wall ornament (in my experience) be
popular at that time?

~~~
spurgu
People were probably not talking (or telling stories) about their dicks that
much, as opposed to something like "man and woman".

~~~
eesmith
FWIW, the Romans draw lots of phalluses.
[http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1113411682/ancient-
roma...](http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1113411682/ancient-romans-drew-
penises-on-everything-and-heres-why-122715/) contains many examples.

~~~
hyperdunc
The Ancient Egyptians did too. I recall examples on a temple wall that
illustrate decreasing virility (semen volume) as age increases.

[http://www.seiglefamily.com/2008egypt/IMG_4997%20hieroglyphi...](http://www.seiglefamily.com/2008egypt/IMG_4997%20hieroglyphics%20detail.JPG)

~~~
dghf
In the tomb of Ti at Saqqara, in a mural depicting a battle, there is a
hieroglyph comprising a stylised phallus entering an even more stylised vulva.
It is an insult that one warrior is hurling at his enemy. Apparently it is
usually translated, somewhat primly, as "Come here, you copulator"; in his
_Scorn: With Added Vitriol_ (a collection of invective across the ages),
Matthew Parris prefers the earthier "Come 'ere, you fucker."

------
hellohal
Is this the start of Prometheus??!

------
quadcore
_they don’t quite seem to form a written language_

Must be a programming language of some sort :)

------
jackaroe78
Short on Crypto (roughly translated)

------
walkingolof
Its "interesting" how one of these symbols ended up in one of the unresolved
cases of project "Blue book".

[https://imgur.com/NB45sQ6](https://imgur.com/NB45sQ6)

It would be a great start of a movie script :)

~~~
sd8dgf8ds8g8dsg
No, that is not even remotely resembling what you claim.

~~~
walkingolof
Look again, I know the picture isnt the best, but its spot on.

~~~
IAmGraydon
Ahhhhh no, but you might want to check your confirmation bias.

~~~
dang
Please don't post snarky dismissals to HN, regardless of how wrong someone
else is. It only makes the thread even worse.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
tqdm
Dang, could you please unban my account? Thanks.

~~~
dang
You weren't banned, but your comments were caught by a software filter.
Sorry—new accounts are subjected to extra filters because of past abuses by
trolls. We've marked your account legit so this won't happen again.

All: it's much better to email issues like this to hn@ycombinator.com, as the
site guidelines ask:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).
It's pretty random what we do and don't see on the site, but we see all the
emails.

------
HenryBemis
Being respectful to the researcher(s) and her/their work, I was thinking that
if this a GoT promo, I would be soooooooo angry (and impressed) :)

------
gfody
Thunderbolts project offers an interesting theory on these symbols
[https://www.thunderbolts.info](https://www.thunderbolts.info)

~~~
scribu
For anyone else wondering what that site is about, it’s pseudoscience:

[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Electric_Universe](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Electric_Universe)

~~~
gfody
if you're able to entertain an idea without accepting it, Thunderbolts project
has hours of interesting content and some compelling if controversial
theories. if the notion that some of your core beliefs are wrong bothers you
that much then you'll appreciate the rationalwiki for saving you some time, I
guess.

