
UN Security Council Holds Closed Hearing on Turkey: Syria Update - punnerud
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-09/turkey-hits-tal-abyad-targets-as-operation-begins-syria-update
======
beefield
What EU should immediately do is to start building charter cities. Either on
sparsely populated areas within EU or by making long term rental agreements
outside EU. Or likely both.

The rules of charter cities would be roughly as follows:

\- Anyone (literally anyone) would be welcome to move to charter city if they
just want so.

\- EU guarantees funding for basic infrastructure like education, legal
system, security, health care and tax authorities.

\- Everyone moving in is allowed and expected to work in the society.

\- All refugees coming to EU are directed to these charter cities.

\- Charter city citizenship does not mean access to EU.

I am not saying that this would be a problem-free solution. I am saying that
it is extremely important that we start to solve the problems that arise here.
Because they are the problems we need to solve to take pressure away from the
refugees to flood Europe. They are the problems we need to solve when suddenly
there is an environmental catastrophe and there are suddenly a _lot_ of people
looking for a new place to live. They are the problems we need to solve to
make the coungries still living under bad governments to improve their
governance.

And no, most people in the world would absolutely not move immediately to
these cities. Most people actually want to live in their homes.

Edit, small changes in looks.

~~~
delfinom
>\- EU guarantees funding for basic infrastructure like education, legal
system, security, health care and tax authorities.

So tell me, how does the EU magically drum up money for all of this?

~~~
point78
Make the immigrants/refugees actually work when they get here.

Something like up to 80% are on welfare and public housing etc.

You don't work or go to school, you go back.

~~~
pjc50
Asylum seekers are deliberately prevented from working in the UK, it's illegal
for them to do so. They are paid £37.75 a week to live on. This is not a lot.

~~~
simonsarris
> They are paid £37.75 a week to live on. This is not a lot.

Shifting discussion from the cost of refugees to talking about _only_ the
_food_ cost, or whatever it is that £37.75 a week amounts to, seems like a
deliberate dodge. I'd be pretty insulted if I was from the UK. Obviously
that's not a lot of money because obviously its not the whole picture.

What they are paid, or that they are paid at all, is never ever a relevant £
figure in these discussions unless its introduced to make it sound
artificially small. When discussing cost, _nothing but the total £ cost per
refugee matters._

~~~
pjc50
Admittedly that excludes housing benefit, but again, when they are forbidden
from working, where and how are they supposed to live?

The stipend is for food and all other living expenses - clothes, heating etc.

------
remarkEon
Why is Turkey in NATO? At this point Their behavior is nothing but
antagonistic at best and downright nefarious at worst.

~~~
sahinabi
Take a look at the number of Syrian refugees each country hosts, compare it to
their population and GDP if you feel like it.

Turkey have many problems dealing with its minorities, neighbours, even its
own citizens, sure - but on this issue, maybe its time to get off your high
horse, before calling any country nefarious. Are we really worse than Spain,
worse than France, worse than UK? Why do they have a say in it without helping
the problem in the slightest?

~~~
ghostpepper
What about buying billions of dollars of weapons from Russia? Does that
qualify as grounds for expulsion from NATO?

~~~
ListeningPie
How are buying weapons from Russia grounds for expulsion from Nato?

~~~
jbob2000
NATO was formed as a deterrence against Russian aggression. To then buy
weapons from them is a pretty big conflict of interest.

------
ChuckNorris89
Nothing against helping refugees but EU and NATO should cancel any further
economical and military cooperation with Turkey ASAP until they have a more
sane leader in charge.

~~~
yalph
Tell me your sane leaders in the “west”. Was it George Bush, David Cameron,
Trump, Johnson who is it?

~~~
ChuckNorris89
I'm in West-Central Europe, the ones taking in refugees. The people you
mentioned are the ones creating them, so ask them.

~~~
mclightning
So, one of the countries which has increased Nazi/Ultra-nationalist votes in
the recent years? pick any :D literally. Europe with the very small percentage
of refugees taken in, per capita, has already went full on ultra nationalist,
even in places like Sweden.

So, we should be more fair to Turkey handling literally, not metaphorically,
millions of refugees. It is easy to talk about humanitarian values, when
you're outsourcing Turkey to do it for you.

~~~
ChuckNorris89
I know right?! These damn European Nazis, giving refugees free food, free
housing, free top medical care, free education out of their own taxes. Shame
on them! /s

Oh, you mean discrimination? I'm white, Eastern European living in Western
Europe and if I'd have a biscuit for every time I have been discriminated here
I'd be fat for life. And yet, I don't call everyone who doesn't like me a
nazi.

~~~
mclightning
Well, I am white and Eastern Europe too. I don't mind countries refusing to
take in refugees. I just don't like the hypocrisy and virtue signaling. Turkey
is just being very direct and open, instead of virtue-signaling and keeping
face acting "humanitarian". Yet this same country holds most amount of
refugees in comparison. Maybe, they know a thing or two about the whole
ordeal.

------
yalph
Its hilarious when citizens of “western” countries are happy with invading
countries blowing up children to pieces and then expect other countries to
bare the burden. Lay it off!!!

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Why do you bring this up?

Because you think those things are wrong? _Then they 're wrong when Erdogan
does them, too._

Because you think that _we_ think that those things are wrong? _Then we think
that they 're wrong when Erdogan does them, too._

I don't think that there's an argument you can make on these grounds that
helps you very much...

------
pleasecalllater
I may be wrong...

Isn't it that according to the law, the refugees are allowed to get the
shelter in the first country they manage to get to? In this case it's Turkey,
right?

~~~
ChuckNorris89
That's only in the EU/Schengen laws and refugees can pay smugglers to get them
to their desired country of choice through EU's porous borders(I drive a lot
through Europe and border checks are only along the main highways, side roads
are completely unguarded).

Nothing against helping refugees but EU and NATO should reconsider any further
cooperation with Turkey.

~~~
pleasecalllater
Thanks. I thought it was some kind of international law at the UN level, not
just the EU one.

------
zwieback
How do Europeans feel about the Kurds these days? When I was growing up in
Germany in the 70s and 80s they weren't super popular but I'm guessing with
Turkey turning to fundamentalism the attitudes have changed?

~~~
supahfly_remix
Why would Germans have had an opinion at all on Kurds? Were there a number
that immigrated there in the 70s or earlier?

~~~
zwieback
Mainly because there are so many Turkish workers in Germany and they were in-
fighting with the Kurds way back when, some of it spilled over and there was
some violence in Germany.

~~~
supahfly_remix
I see, thanks for explaining.

------
norin
I believe it's an agreement between EU countries, but I could also be wrong.

The EU is going to throw billions at Erdogan, because they the EU cannot agree
on how to deal with refugees. another wave could tear the EU apart.

------
dadarepublic
Wouldn't this work to the benefit of Putin-Erdogan interests?

The refugee situation is one of the polarizing issues in EU/Brexit politics.
The Turkey-Syrian conflict pushes a new wave to exacerbate internal
polarization within the UK & EU - a side effect of the conflict but still
furthers a broader agenda. Pretty crafty.

------
ericras
That's not a very good threat. Diversity is Europe's strength and they will be
welcome with open arms!

~~~
s9w
a reply to this was just removed. not [removed] removed, but actually deleted.
Is that normal? I've never seen that.

~~~
ahbyb
I was the author of that message and I removed it myself (it was a troll reply
that got flagged).

Removed posts appear as [removed] only if they have children (and, I believe,
only mods can remove posts that have children). A post with no children that
is removed by its author or a mod simply vanishes.

~~~
dang
I appreciate the effort you've been making to inch a bit closer toward the
intended use of the site. I hope it isn't too annoying if I say so.

The tag HN uses is not [removed] but [deleted] and yes, if the post has no
children, we don't bother displaying that. It's just there as a placeholder in
comment trees. More importantly, though: mods never delete posts unless the
author asks us to. The most we would do is kill a post, which shows as [dead]
and is visible to anyone with showdead turned on in their profile.

There have been a handful of exceptions to that in 10 years, a couple
accidental deletions and a couple that the legal department told us we had to
do, but it is as solid a rule as we have on HN.

~~~
ahbyb
>I appreciate the effort you've been making to inch a bit closer toward the
intended use of the site. I hope it isn't too annoying if I say so.

Absolutely not, and I appreciate what you do. It's very uncommon to see
someone with the necessary set of skills to effectively maintain a community
and put up with people like me. That also includes calmly explaining over and
over again the decisions that have to be taken to moderate this site without
falling for the "I'm doing this because this is the way it is/because I want
to" argument.

~~~
dang
Thanks for that. If there are things we could do differently that you think
would be more effective, I'd like to know what they are.

