
Ending Support for macOS and Linux - tech234a
https://www.rocketleague.com/news/ending-support-for-mac-and-linux/
======
jeroenhd
This was to be expected, when Epic Games, notorious for not giving a rat's ass
about Linux support, acquired the studio behind Rocket League. Other titles
from studios bought by Epic will likely follow if they have not already.

This does pose the question on what happens to Linux players who have invested
into digital purchases. Online functionality will be disabled so all items
will basically be void and the game becomes mostly worthless.

I also wonder if this means that Rocket League will not run on Google Stadia
and its competitors, as those platforms mostly run on Linux systems.

~~~
paxys
Is there any major studio or publisher that DOES give a rat's ass about Linux
gaming?

~~~
yellowapple
Paradox has been pretty consistent about Linux support, and in turn I've been
pretty consistent about lighting my money on fire by buying their games and
the DLCs thereof.

~~~
flukus
It's been pretty consistently broken support. I've run into lot's of things
like CK2 only working on xorg, HOI4 only working on x11 (or the other way
around), Imperator not working unless you install some c++ runtime lib, EU4
not working at all at the moment for some reason, all on a pretty standard
ubuntu 18.04.

Some of those might not be the fault of paradox, but Imperator shows that they
didn't even test running it on a stock install.

I've had better luck with proton games, they don't always work but once they
do I have far less regressions.

~~~
account42
> CK2 only working on xorg, HOI4 only working on x11 (or the other way around)

Not sure what you meant, but X.Org is an implementaion of X11 so this doesn't
make any sense.

~~~
flukus
I meant xorg and wayland but I just tried everything.

Currently on wayland stellaris and EU4 won't start for me, I didn't even know
stellaris was broken until now, that was one of the better working ones.

On xorg they will all start but games are offset and sit below the top bar in
gnome, The mouse isn't offset so it's completely unplayable. One of them used
to work fine in xorg though, not sure which.

------
kgwxd
I just shut down my work computers and switched over to my personal machine so
I could jump into training mode to work on my dribbling, because I watched a
few tips videos on lunch I was eager to apply, but decided to check my news
feed first. Fuck.

Cost of the game, 12 DLC packs, and 3 season passes just gone. 388 hours over
12 months to build skills I will never use again. And just as many hours
watching others play.

Rocket League was the one and only game I decided to break my no-centralized-
or-DRM-protected-games rule for because it is an absolutely beautiful, pure-
sport game.

Psyonix made a fantastic game, Epic will destroy it. I knew how bad they were
but really hoped they were just going to take this piece of art, not fuck with
it, and just profit.

The money I've spent on the game as a Linux user is easily measurable, but
what about the, no less than 10, people I've inspired to buy the game and the
people they in-turn inspired to buy the game? What about the toys my 3 year
old wants because he sees me playing the game? What about when it would have
been time for him to get a copy? What about all the friends he was going to
inspire to get a copy? All because of a single Linux user that went against
his own ideals hoping not to get fucked just this one time.

~~~
ohithereyou
Rocket League costs $20 when it's not on sale. Say you get 50 people to buy
the game. That's $1,000 in revenue, let's say that 80% of that is profit. So
that's $800 that Psyonix/Epic make.

I would imagine the staffing costs to keep Linux and macOS versions of the
game running are more than $800/week.

------
stevewillows
I used to love Rocket League, but it seems like every time they make a change,
it goes against the community.

First they took some fun, casual games (alternate modes) and made them
competitive. The competition isn't the worst, but doing this removed the
ability to rematch. Since the games weren't as popular, you'd often find a
really great group where both teams were fairly balanced and rematch a dozen
times.

This was fun.

They took that away along with the 'Labs', which were alternate arenas. Some
went into Rumble (Rocket League with fun tools), but it just wasn't as fun.

With the recent move away from keys, they totally borked their item system.
Suddenly near worthless items would cost the user $8. They may have adjusted
this, but I've all but stepped away.

It's a shame to see the game slowly go downhill. They had a perfect balance a
few years ago that allowed casual and competitive people to enjoy the game.
Combine this with the eSports, and everything should have cruised along
nicely.

------
csdreamer7
Epic started out saying that they would bring the Epic Store to Linux. That
was removed. Then this.

I am so glad I haven't bought anything on the Epic Store. I did buy this game
on Steam, before the studio was bought by Epic.

Tim Sweeney was right with GabeN complaining about Microsoft; saying Linux was
a 'get out of jail free' card. Now he is establishing his own monopoly that is
dependent on Microsoft's monopoly on Windows.

------
DevKoala
I feel this is a horrible anti-consumer practice, but their ROI must be
incredibly low. I don't remember the last time I played a game on a Mac. I
wonder how Apple Arcade is doing.

~~~
makecheck
Realistically the 32-bit abandonment in macOS Catalina significantly damaged
the Mac gaming market (however “justified” it may be from an engineering
standpoint, with many years of warning, etc.). There is simply no good way to
tell people that the vast majority of games they probably acquired in the last
few years are unlikely to run on any recent hardware.

Some games do move forward to 64-bit but it will certainly require several
years for the Mac game market (such as it is) to recover even to the point it
had reached.

~~~
unlinked_dll
I don't game on Mac, but I did develop for MacOS for a number of years. Who
was releasing 32 bit binaries on MacOS in the last 10 years? Snow Leopard was
the last major version to support 32 it, it's been deprecated since 2009!

~~~
jseliger
Adobe.

Lightroom 6 is the last standalone version that doesn't require subscriptions.
It won't run on Catalina and has no good substitute on MacOS (I know about
[http://darktable.org/](http://darktable.org/) but it is not performant or
Mac-like on MacOS).

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Once upon a time, I would have suggested Aperture as a Lightroom substitute,
but funny thing about that...

------
trynewideas
So Epic buys Psyonix in May 2019, Rocket League is an Unreal Engine game, and
less than a year later Epic/Psyonix drops support two supported Unreal Engine
platforms.

Is this isolated? Do I have any rational reason to sweat this as foreshadowing
of Epic dropping those as UE4 platforms?

~~~
jedieaston
Rocket League is on UE3, so hopefully not. They probably just didn’t want it
to be patched for three platforms.

~~~
trynewideas
Ah! That's the bit of context I was missing. That makes a lot more sense,
thanks.

------
imnotlost
Linux and macOS game development in a nutshell - spend $200K to make $10K, get
10x angry "support requests"

~~~
mjevans
Target cross-platform technologies from the start.

Eliminate bugs, make releasing for PC and any console you want easy.

Linux shouldn't really be a special support case, it only becomes one when
silly assumptions are made.

~~~
fragsworth
Have you actually tried to do this yourself? With anything? I feel like
everyone in this thread is trying to back-seat drive without realizing the
effort that is actually involved in supporting multiple platforms.

~~~
smallstepforman
We’re an embedded gaming system (casino) and I make sure we have a platform
abstraction layer (2 c++ files per platform), and any project we build can be
made for any platform (even Haiku). The amount of threading issues you
discover makes this exercise absolutely worth it. The platform files haven’t
been touched for almost a decade, write once (a week) and use forever.

------
ryandrake
Between these kinds of stories, companies abandoning robust and powerful
Desktop applications for their mobile (toy-like in comparison) “apps”,
companies dropping support for less-popular browsers, os vendors abandoning or
downplaying cross-platform APIs like OpenGL, and the rise of halfway-house
solutions like Electron, we seem to be headed towards another Dark Ages for
cross-platform software. Charitably, this could be just companies saving
developer time at the expense of users. Uncharitably, it’s explained by
developer laziness and/or inability to learn cross platform development.

I remember how frustrating it was in the late 90s being a desktop non-Windows
user or non-Netscape user. We seem to be rapidly heading back to those bad
days. Yet there’s no evil empire like Microsoft dominating the computing world
and crushing cross-platform anymore like they did back then. It’s just kind of
happening and it’s sad.

~~~
hombre_fatal
It wasn't long ago that there were ~zero games for Linux/Mac on Steam. Now I
see Linux/Mac icons on at least a third of the AAA titles. And the most
popular games in the world (Dota, LoL, CS:GO, Fortnite, etc) are playable on
Mac and sometimes even Linux.

Seems pretty obvious that cross-plat is winning. Especially once you consider
the most ubiquitous cross-plat vehicle of all: the browser. It's also the only
platform with a built-in ad-blocker and development console, thus the most
open and end-user-friendly.

~~~
Snetry
It's true developers and so started supporting Linux and macOS more and more
But considering Epic used to be a Linux supporter it's sad to see it get
outright removed from RL

------
tomc1985
Yet another grand failure of the consumer-hostile Games-as-a-Service model

------
azhenley
> As we continue to upgrade Rocket League with new technologies, it is no
> longer viable for us to maintain support for the macOS and Linux

Any idea which specific technologies they are referring to?

~~~
kevingadd
Most likely stuff like DirectX 12, or third-party middleware without viable
MacOS or Linux support.

The deprecation of OpenGL on MacOS is another barrier for that platform - you
either have to buy GL-on-Metal middleware from someone or write a new Metal
renderer. If the % of customers on Mac is small enough I can understand just
opting to drop that platform.

Hard to say re:Linux, though. Maybe they get more customer service burden out
of maintaining Linux support than they do revenue. It's common to hear that
from indie game developers, though some developers say the opposite.

EDIT: Also just occurred to me that Valve's ongoing Proton efforts have
resulted in Windows Rocket League working okay on Linux:
[https://www.protondb.com/app/252950](https://www.protondb.com/app/252950) As
a result the devs may have decided it's better to just leave Linux to third
parties. Some of the reviews claim Windows-via-Proton is faster than the
official Linux port!

~~~
jeroenhd
It'll work, but anti-cheat software can easily mistake the emulated Linux
environment to be a tampered Windows environment and flag your account.

It'll work for a while, probably, but there's no way to know how long and
if/when you risk an account wide ban.

------
teruakohatu
The only real changes they have been making is monetizing by adding cosmetics.
As far as Linux goes this is a pure ROI play, nothing more.

The mac support may have been removed due to Apple not supporting 32bit apps
(and the expected return verse cost of going 64bit)

------
Jeaye
I have Proton running RL consistently at 250 FPS using the following start
command: PROTON_USE_D9VK=1 %command% -nomovie -high -AllowBackgroundAudio

Without D9VK, specifically, the average FPS is around 145. Be sure to use the
above, if you're playing with Proton!

~~~
kgwxd
But for how long? Given how aggressive this move was (one damn month), I give
it less than a year before it's not available in Steam anymore.

~~~
RealStickman
They shouldn't be able to pull Rocket League from customers who already have
it in their library. They couldn't do it with other games like Metro Exodus
either.

------
kgwxd
What excited me about RL is the pure sport of it and the insane amount fine
grained mechanics one had to learn to get good. Are there any other games with
those attributes that that can't be arbitrarily taken away from me?

~~~
rgun
Dota 2

* Plethora of mechanics and combinations possible, make it impossible for two games to ever be the same.

* Steep learning curve but very rewarding

I am fairly sure it will stay around at least for 3-4 more years (given the
current popularity and player base).

~~~
kgwxd
Looks fun but I guess physics based mechanics is what I'm more interested in.
And I'm pretty sure this could still potentially be taken away from me on a
whim. No DRM and stand-alone servers are a prerequisite, I'm not falling for
this shit ever again. This move by Epic was truly the last straw.

------
caleb-allen
Oof. I was excited to get my linux machine set up again as my entertainment
center, with Rocket League as my main motivator.

Guess not

~~~
Zhyl
Gaming in Linux has basically undergone a revolution in the last 18 months.
It's now possible to pretty much play any game under the sun using Proton
(Valve's homebrew Wine + DXVK) or Lutris (Wine manager and installation script
repository).

The only trouble is games with anti-cheat, which rules out a lot of online
games including Fortnite, PUBG and others.

~~~
uncle_j
You do realise that Proton and similar technologies decrease the incentive for
developers to port their game to Linux?

Why bother porting it when you can count on someone fixing it for you.

As for playing any game under the sun. No it doesn't. A lot of things fail and
don't work quite right. Also a lot of mods don't work which is half the reason
to play games on PC.

~~~
yyyk
It's the other way around.

There would be little incentive to port games to Linux without an existing
gamer pool which can buy them, and there would be no gamer pool without an
initial range of games...

The only practical way to break that vicious circle was the emulation option.
Linux gamers play on emulation, but appreciate native ports and form the
(initial) buyer pool for Linux games.

So Proton and co are the only reason there's any viable Linux gaming at all.
Without Proton, every Linux gamer would have had a Windows install and play
with that alone.

~~~
uncle_j
> There would be little incentive to port games to Linux without an existing
> gamer pool which can buy them, and there would be no gamer pool without an
> initial range of games...

There isn't much of a gamer pool anyway. This may surprise you the number of
people who like to play PC games and really care about Open Source I would
wager isn't very many.

> So Proton and co are the only reason there's any viable Linux gaming at all.
> Without Proton, every Linux gamer would have had a Windows install and play
> with that alone.

Anyone I know who plays games and uses Linux Dual boots. Some people have
spoken about some GPU pass-through nonsense with a VMWare which just seems
like a faff.

It just easier to buy a drive, slap Windows on it and Steam and be done with
it. Until it is easier and more reliable with my whole catalogue I will be
sticking with Windows.

~~~
yyyk
>There isn't much of a [Linux] gamer pool anyway. This may surprise you the
number...

It doesn't surprise me at all. That number would have been zero without
emulation like wine/Proton though.

> Anyone I know who plays games and uses Linux Dual boots.

As for myself, I don't play a lot, but a Linux version (native or emulated)
plays a big role in deciding which games to buy when I do. It's not due to
'Open Source' reasons though.

Dual boot is too much of a mess for me, I have a separate Windows laptop which
I barely use otherwise (it does have a few Windows-only games), it's a bit of
an hassle too. I don't feel like booting it and discovering it needs to
install 10000 updates. I have already had to reinstall Windows 10 once so I
can run a game (the game didn't support the old Windows 10 build, and the in-
place upgrade crashed). It's much easier when I can just take a break and run
a game on the same Linux system I use regularly.

~~~
uncle_j
> Dual boot is too much of a mess for me, I have a separate Windows laptop
> which I barely use otherwise (it does have a few Windows-only games), it's a
> bit of an hassle too. I don't feel like booting it and discovering it needs
> to install 10000 updates. I have already had to reinstall Windows 10 once so
> I can run a game (the game didn't support the old Windows 10 build, and the
> in-place upgrade crashed). It's much easier when I can just take a break and
> run a game on the same Linux system I use regularly.

It is odd. I run Windows at work and the machine rarely gets rebooted. No
problems what-so-ever. I run a Windows at home and in my Office (I do a lot of
SQL SERVER and .NET dev), I rarely have crashes (once or twice a year). I work
in a very large office with many other developers and the machines run fine
for years on end.

Yet when someone is complaining about Windows on the internet and they like
Linux it always has thousands of updates and they need to reinstall the whole
OS to play one game. Odd how that comes about. I don't know quite how people
manage it. Yet I use the same windows installation for half a decade with
almost no problems. It almost sounds like it is operator error.

~~~
yyyk
I run Windows at $WORK too, and it runs fine (there were minor issues which
would probably have been worse on Linux). Also much of my work is with the MS
stack, which is pretty fine too.

It's just I have little use for it at home, so I run and upgrade it rarely. It
turns out upgrading from the nearly oldest Windows 10 build to the latest (at
the time) crashed the upgrade process on my setup. This is hardly a regular
process - I am sure 99% of people upgrade more regularly, and do not skip as
many builds.

It's a cycle too, I guess. The less I use Windows the more upgrades the system
accurres which makes me dread turning it on more....

------
remmargorp64
Different platforms are better for different things. That's just a fact. This
is why I use a desktop PC with windows 10 for PC gaming, Linux machines for my
servers, and a Macbook Pro for programming work during the day.

~~~
Snetry
Yeah but Windows isn't inherently better at gaming because it gives something
the other platforms don't (DirectX12 can easily be replaced with Vulkan) It's
a matter of the market choosing it's main Target and sticking to that

~~~
uncle_j
That isn't true. Windows does provide something that other platforms don't.
The APIs and program compatibility are supported forever in Windows.

I can run the original Quake and DOOM on Windows 10 without any problems. A
friend of mine like playing GTA 3, it didn't work properly with Windows 8.1.
In an update this incompatibility (I forget the exact reason why) was fixed.

That just doesn't really happen with Linux.

------
dbg31415
If you want to game on a Mac just fire up Bootcamp. Always blew me away how
much better games ran on Windows vs. MacOS on the same hardware. Just night
and day difference.

~~~
redisman
I did that for a while but ended up buying a gaming PC for about $1000 and
talk about a night and day difference to my $2000 Macbook. 100x the catalogue
of games and 5x the performance.

~~~
pornel
It's baffling that Apple puts $180 GPUs in $3000-$6000 computers.

------
sandGorgon
given the popularity of WSL on Windows 10..i think we will see Windows
becoming the best Linux platform there is.

A lot of gamers i know have switched to using WSL for development (unless they
have political objections).

I think it will be more likely in the future that Linux gamers be asked to
become WSL Gamers

In fact, WSL works so well (including Docker and Kubernetes stuff), that i
have a strong suspicion that Microsoft sales staff have been leashed pretty
deliberately for optics reasons.

~~~
Jnr
WSL has no real hardware access and still runs on NTFS which is terribly slow.
Windows developers will probably try to fix it somehow but it is not there yet

Another option is to run Windows on top of Linux. But it currently also has
some drawbacks.

~~~
sandGorgon
WSL2 (which im talking about ) is blazing fast. It runs a full linux kernel
and not the WSL 1 NTFS emulation layer.

[https://medium.com/swlh/wsl-2-docker-edge-tech-preview-
nativ...](https://medium.com/swlh/wsl-2-docker-edge-tech-preview-native-linux-
containers-w-o-emulation-b41667e6dbef)

It has full Docker Edge support now and CUDA support is upcoming.

I'm genuinely impressed by WSL2

~~~
pram
WSL2 is just a hyper-v container, which Docker for windows already used?

~~~
sandGorgon
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwhMThePdIo&t=2818s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwhMThePdIo&t=2818s)

WinNT Kernel and Linux Kernel are running on top of Hypervisor platform side-
by-side .... not one-in-the-other.

------
29athrowaway
Will those users be refunded?

~~~
therealidiot
I've just submitted a refund request, I'm not sure if it will be granted but
I'd hope that others who do not run Windows will also consider making a refund
request (unless offline play is your preference anyway)

------
ryanmcdonough
But they’ll support Windows 7 a product approaching EOL in a couple of weeks.

------
amelius
Why can't they use a multiplatform GUI toolkit like Qt, and compile for all
platforms?

~~~
colejohnson66
Qt doesn’t cut it; it’s designed for something completely different: windowed
GUIs, not (3D) games. It’s the same reason why you wouldn’t make a game using
WinForms. Basically, games use a different architecture than GUIs.

~~~
newnewpdro
SDL w/OpenGL more or less covers the big three though

~~~
tuckerpo
SDL probably isn't performant enough for AAA titles.

~~~
newnewpdro
Uninformed nonsense, SDL gives you the graphics context and you directly use
native calls. It even supports Vulkan these days.

~~~
tuckerpo
Hence the probably part of my comment. I wasn't speaking as an SDL authority.

