
Ask HN: Where are the good jobs in Canada? - zaptheimpaler
I recently moved to Vancouver, Canada after working for 3 years in the SF Bay Area and it has been a little bit of a shock. The companies I&#x27;ve seen here are not doing terribly exciting things and don&#x27;t pay very well.<p>The biggest difference is they are much less willing to take a chance on people with only 3-4 years experience like me. On paper I don&#x27;t have a whole lot of experience, but I&#x27;ve been obsessed with technology since I was very young and HAVE learnt a lot. In the right jobs, given responsibility, I have done more than people my &quot;level&quot; would typically do in a more conservative place. But I didn&#x27;t realize just how special that is to SF - it seems like companies in Canada still treat software engineers as interchangeable cogs with &quot;X years of experience&#x2F;knows Y technology, does not know Z&quot; stamped on their forehead.<p>I&#x27;m willing to move anywhere within Canada. Can anyone recommend companies and locations with a more optimistic&#x2F;SF-ish culture willing to take a chance on passion &amp; talent? Or even how to find places like that?
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woolvalley
Why did you move to vancouver, a place with an even worse affordability
problem than the bay area, and no high paying jobs outside of a few
specialized doctors and real estate agents.

If you need to stay close to vancouver for family reasons, go work in seattle
and get a nexus / global entry card and drive to see them. Cheaper rent,
cheaper everything and much higher pay. As a person working in software, your
health plan will be better than or equal to the Canadian system for your
family and you'll still come out ahead $$ wise.

If your stuck in canada due to some visa snafu, maybe google waterloo then?

~~~
beguiledfoil
>Cheaper rent

Rent is not cheaper in Seattle. Salary will make up for it if you are a
programmer, though.

~~~
eloff
Especially since programmers in Seattle earn more than 2x programmers in
Vancouver.

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whalesalad
I'm kinda surprised you had to come here to ask: Toronto is the only other
option.

That being said a lot of tech folks in Toronto are leaving (or want to leave)
because even though it's a growing and exciting space right now they still pay
below market and that gets double worse by the exchange rate.

"anyone recommend companies and locations with a more optimistic/SF-ish
culture"

I'm going to interpret this to mean you'd like to join a company where you can
be more of a jack of all trades, take multiple hats, pick up stuff and learn
on the fly. This is dead as far as I know. For tiny startups that are very
very early you can fake it till you make it but beyond that you're gonna be
expected to really know what you are doing. You still need to do all that
stuff but you also need to be a pro in the primary domains of your role.

~~~
jagger27
Ottawa is also an option, and not just Shopify.

~~~
branchless
What else did you have in mind in Ottawa?

~~~
thepredestrian
There is TripAdvisor and SurveyMonkey

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gesman
"don't pay very well." is a key point in Canada.

Solution is to either work for US-based consultancy OR for US-based company
remotely or move to USA.

Alternatively - build your own business.

As a Canadian salaried employee you'll be facing high taxes, shitty pay and
shitty weather (albeit Vancouver weather maybe a bit better).

~~~
EvenThisAcronym
>"don't pay very well." is a key point in Canada.

You say that, and it's probably true on average, but I'm making 33% above the
average salary for my province. Granted, I don't live in one of the "big"
provinces and competition for tech jobs is not as high as it would be in
hotspots like Vancouver/Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal.

Granted, I'm making less than an equivalent job in one of the big tech hubs in
Canada, but the cost of living is a fraction of what it is in the bigger
cities as well.

~~~
gesman
I lived in Ottawa for a long time and worked in Montreal before finally moving
to SV.

The pay in Ottawa/Montreal is a disgrace compare to USA/SV.

~~~
EvenThisAcronym
I'm not disputing that, just providing a data point that you can still live in
Canada and work as a dev for good pay and a low cost of living. I could move
to the US and make twice my current salary, but that comes with its own
drawbacks.

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xal
Shopify across Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal, and Waterloo.

[https://www.shopify.com/careers](https://www.shopify.com/careers)

Bonus, you get to work on something that's actually important for the economic
future instead of making people click on ads that they don't want to see or
growth hack their last drops of free time away.

------
mattnewport
Pay here in Vancouver is definitely below the bay area or Seattle. As for
doing exciting things, I guess that depends what you find exciting. Several
big tech companies have decent sized offices here, Microsoft and Amazon being
the most visible examples. There's a lot of games companies, EA being by far
the biggest but there are numerous smaller studios. There's quite a few tiny
AR / VR startups but they're mostly operating on shoestring budgets. There's
quite a few people like me working remote with US companies which can be a
good option if you can get it.

If AR / VR is something that interests you, come to one of the events at the
Cube and you'll be able to meet some of the companies in that space.

~~~
moonshinefe
Are there any sites or resources in particular you used to find remote US tech
jobs? I'm looking for something new but as this thread points to, the pay here
in BC is pretty bad relative to the cost of living--remote would be great.

~~~
mattnewport
Well in my case I co-founded the company I work for so I didn't use a
traditional remote jobs site. I did originally connect with my co-founder
online though, through the Oculus forums (we do VR development). I know of
other people who work remote in Vancouver but I don't know how they found the
jobs in most cases I'm afraid.

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eloff
This basically mirrors my experience with Canada. So don't play a rigged game,
work remotely for foreign (US, Swiss) companies that pay more. Bonus points,
become non-resident in Canada, stay for the lovely summers in Vancouver and
then bugger off to some tropical beach paradise for the other 6 months a year.
You can legally pay nothing in income taxes when you do that (you won't get
health care either, but at programmer salaries, self-insure with the
difference, or take out private insurance.)

~~~
arcticbull
yeah, not really re: the tax thing. I'd suggest taking that up with an
accountant, or better yet an attorney specializing in international taxation -
I am none of these. This is based on my experiences moving from the US to
Canada, and further research I've done while traveling.

Work is considered performed where you were physically when the work was done.
This work requires a work visa (or citizenship), whether for Canada or for
said tropical paradise, otherwise you're subject to deportation. Lying about
the purpose of your trip to gain unlawful entry is a whole other matter.
Compensation you were provided for the work you did is then taxed by the
relevant authorities where you were physically when performing the work. This
is why US companies are very careful to tell employees never to work when on
vacation because if you did they'd have a lot of paperwork to fill in.

If you're suggesting you can be a total non-resident of both countries by
alternating between the two or splitting your time, luckily the tax
authorities have thought of this too, I suggest you look up the definition of
a Deemed Resident. Effectively, you are deemed a resident of the country to
which you have the strongest connection. Or, you can be dual-status resident
where you're a part year resident of one country and a part-year resident of
another. Worst case they'll both deem you a resident and full on double-tax
you if there's no treaty - but make no mistake you will pay taxes. Check out
"What are residential ties?" [1] in the CRA handbook.

Now, I'd love to be wrong of course.

What I do know is that even if you're on _vacation_ in the US, let's say on a
B-2, it's a grey area to even contribute to open source projects. The US
doesn't require that what you're doing be paid to be considered 'work'.

[1] [https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/forms-
publi...](https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/forms-
publications/publications/t4058/non-residents-income-tax-2016.html#P83_5491)

~~~
tricolon
This is pretty confusing. Regarding work permits in Canada, remote work is
explicitly not considered "work": [https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-
refugees-citizenship/co...](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-
citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-
manuals/temporary-residents/foreign-workers/what-is-work.html)

> Examples of activities for which a person would not normally be remunerated
> or which would not compete directly with Canadian citizens or permanent
> residents in the Canadian labour market and which would normally be part-
> time or incidental to the reason that the person is in Canada include, but
> are not limited to:

> long distance (by telephone or Internet) work done by a temporary resident
> whose employer is outside Canada and who is remunerated from outside Canada

~~~
arcticbull
Based on my reading of R186, a work permit is required, so that's separate
(and not something you mentioned anyways).

From your excerpt it would be okay to work remotely so long it doesn't compete
in the labor market AND it's incidental to the reason you're in Canada -
invalidating my point about US employers telling people not to work in Canada
while on vacation (though other countries it definitely varies). However, I'd
posit that spending 6 months in Canada working remotely is anything but
incidental to the reason that person is in Canada.

~~~
eloff
First off nobody would be dumb enough to try to get a work permit for a remote
job, even if it were required by some law. Secondly citizens of canada
wouldn't need a permit.

~~~
arcticbull
If they didn’t get a work permit they’d be violating immigration law, first of
all, and second, that has nothing to do with taxation. And what after your
third 6-month long vacation you don’t think they’ll ask how you plan to
support yourself? Where your money comes from? Who you work for? I get that
every time I wander through and I'm a full-on citizen.

------
aprdm
Vancouver has Microsoft, Amazon and EA as the biggest companies. If you're
into film (say visual effects) there are lot's of companies as well. Most of
companies in Vancouver value work/life balance (we have beautiful mountains)
over crazy hours. Lot's of people move from east side (say Toronto) to
Vancouver because of that.

A senior software engineer would be making anywhere from 100-150k, I don't see
that as that bad for having a good quality of life in Vancouver.

You can't buy a house in a good place, but even in SF with big salaries you
can't as well. And you get to live in Canada :)

If you're optimizing for money then yeah, work for an American company from
Canada. Exchange rate will make your life even better and you get a better
social environment.

I wouldn't change my job in Vancouver for a job paying more in SF (or anywhere
in the USA). I moved from London to here and the disposable income / quality
of life is a lot better in Vancouver IMO.

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DDR0
Make your own startup or join an interesting small company. How do you do
this? It is _very_ easy.

Step 1: Go to [https://vanstartupweek.ca/](https://vanstartupweek.ca/). It's
next week. Maybe you can still volunteer and get in for free if you want. Step
2: Talk to people! It's a very business-focused crowd there, so your skills
are both hard to find and in very high demand. Step 3: Pick a company. They
tend to range between "nonexistent as of yet" to "small". (Note the venues,
they're often looking for programmers as well.) Be friendly, personable, and
make some contacts. Enjoy the food, it's good. :)

------
swframe2
Search for "Who's Hiring" posts like this one:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17902901](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17902901)

Then search for Canada within the page.

~~~
godelmachine
That pits me directly against the best of the best. For people hiring for
those jobs which are HN readers, which happen to be very intelligent as well

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slajax
Drop me an email? [kc at hc dot ai]

We've got a team of ~40 super passionate engineers creating the worlds best
developer experience; CTO.ai.

We're on market with Vancouver comp and are very comfortable with hiring
people with 3-4 years experience. We hire based on potential rather then
simply raw experience.

Check us out. If we're not a fit for you, I would personally be happy to
introduce you to a number of other companies that I know.

My advice; I've worked / lived across Canada and if you can stick it out in BC
and get rolling - the W/L balance and mild winters definitely win out over the
rest of Canada.

------
Waterluvian
Waterloo region has a lot of great tech companies. But I didn't find any that
came close to paying Boston dollars.

~~~
acchow
Square has an office in Waterloo.

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arandr0x
Toronto has more startups (in the sense of VC funded young companies) but the
culture is not like SF. There are a lot more jack of all trades and
learning/growing opportunities in smaller orgs even if the culture is
conservative, though.

In Montreal the pay is not that much lower but cost of living is easily halved
compared to Vancouver, so your Canadian salary will look a lot more appealing.

If the weather is an issue, find a company in SF that'll let you work
remotely. Be smart on the salary -- if they have to pay you as a contractor
you'll have more expenses than as an employee.

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wahnfrieden
We are hiring roles pretty much across the board at Top Hat (in Toronto), and
value skills and aptitude over years of experience. Feel free to email me if
you want to chat more (address in profile).

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eqdw
They're in the US.

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robotresearcher
Borealis is an AI research lab backed by RBC. The Vancouver lab is run by Greg
Mori. They are hiring. Hit them up.

[https://www.borealisai.com/en/research/](https://www.borealisai.com/en/research/)

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monocasa
I hear that Montreal and Toronto have the majority of the tech scene in
Canada.

~~~
cbHXBY1D
Besides game companies and research offices for big tech companies, what else
is in Montreal?

~~~
abledon
pornhub

~~~
godelmachine
Really?

~~~
vaughnegut
Yup! The adult industry is relatively big in Montreal. A few people I know
work office jobs at Porn Hub. They operate under the name "Mind Geek" so you
don't have to put Porn Hub on your resume. You can Google it, if you're
curious. I hear it's a decent place to work.

~~~
godelmachine
That's some fresh info. What technologies do they hire for?

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nchelluri
Remote work for a U.S. company :) That's what I do.

Found the position on the company website which I visited after looking at a
whoishiring thread.

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aashishnagpal
Are you still looking for and interested to move anywhere within Canada?

~~~
aashishnagpal
@zaptheimpaler

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godelmachine
I would like to ask the OP what technologies has he worked on while at SFBA.

If possible please post your LinkedIn profile.

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miguelrochefort
Launch your own startup. Good luck getting funded.

~~~
___cs____
Hijacking the discussion. What are some of accelerators/programs that you
recommend ?. Is it a welcoming community to immigrant entrepreneurs ?

~~~
woolvalley
Bootstrap and leverage canadian government programs? There isn't much of any
sort of venture capital in vancouver

