
Show HN: An open-source ultrasound imaging dev kit side project - kelu124
http://murgen.echopen.org
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bencollier49
Yikes! This is brilliant innovation, but it should come with a pretty serious
warning somewhere about the potential dangers of medical ultrasound. While the
jury is still out about a lot of things, there are major reasons why the NHS
in Britain discourages expectant mothers from having private "4D" scans and
additional procedures.

[http://www.nhs.uk/news/2010/02February/Pages/Warning-over-
so...](http://www.nhs.uk/news/2010/02February/Pages/Warning-over-souvenir-
baby-scans.aspx)

Brilliant to see you doing it though, and I'd be fascinated to see it paired
with AI to make swifter diagnoses in order to cut down the length of exposure
required for various measurements.

~~~
maho
> Yikes! This is brilliant innovation, but it should come with a pretty
> serious warning somewhere about the potential dangers of medical ultrasound.
> While the jury is still out about a lot of things, there are major reasons
> why the NHS in Britain discourages expectant mothers from having private
> "4D" scans and additional procedures.

This is an overstatement of the available evidence. The link you post says so
itself:

> These studies have found no evidence that ultrasound affects mortality
> around the time of pregnancy or birth, or has any effect on childhood
> cancers. In randomised-controlled trials there has been ‘weak evidence’ that
> it may affect whether a child is right or left handed (known as handedness),
> which the reviewers say may be the result of confounding, rather than actual
> causation.

I cringe when I read well-meaning but irrelevant warnings like the one you
gave. To me, these warnings are somewhere between naysaying and spreading FUD.
The NHS wants to make sure that millions of people don't take unnecessary
ultrasounds, since a tiny risk, multiplied by millions, equals a few
unnecessary deaths/left-handed children. The individual risk of unnecessary
ultrasounds, however, is extremely low compared to the usual risks of
pregrancy and childbirth.

Many medical devices are unnecessarily expensive (and suprisingly badly
designed, from a user-interface standpoint). There are already enough
regulatory hurdles in place that prevent disruption of the medical device
markets, let us not add to these hurdles by being overly cautious!

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jabits
Many years ago my grandfather owned a retail shoe store in Appleton, WI (back
before malls). They used an x-ray machine to aid in sizing shoes. As a kid,
years after it was put out of service, I came across it in the store basement.
The device was about the size of a washing machine, made of a fine cabinet
wood, and had a crt on top that allowed customers an x-ray view of their feet
with the new shoes on. Fortunately it was no longer working when I found it.

The point is, lack of evidence is no reason to assume a non-invasive procedure
is safe. There should be many "hurdles" in place to prevent unsafe medical
devices. This is an area where very few consumers can analyze the risk.

~~~
mrfusion
Combining the two topics... why can't we use ultrasound to size shoes? Anyone
want to work on that with me?

~~~
semi-extrinsic
Because there are many small air gaps between the shoes and the feet. The
impedance mismatch would be huge, and likely throw your signal deep into noise
territory. Have you seen the amount of jelly they spread on your skin for
medical ultrasounds? I don't think having to submerge your feet in liquid when
trying out shoes would win many customers.

~~~
mrfusion
But in this case you just need a very rough 2d outline. I believe some stud
finders use ultrasound. This might be more similar to that than a medical
ultrasound.

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deutronium
This looks very cool!

I've just been looking at your github repository, you mention you use the
HV7360 chip to generate the ultrasound pulse.

I'm slightly confused by the datasheet for this chip, am I right in thinking
you supply +/\- 100V to this chip? If so, what are you using to generate that
voltage out of curiosity?

(I have a ~2MHz ultrasound transducer which I keep meaning to play with, to
attempt to measure liquid density, so your project is very interesting to me!)

~~~
kelu124
Hey there. Indeed, we supply HV to the pulser. Integrated is a recom dc/dc
converter. Alternatively, for a DIY approach, you can as well work with
something as in
[http://echopen.org/index.php?title=Analog_Parts_%28Farad%29#...](http://echopen.org/index.php?title=Analog_Parts_%28Farad%29#High_Pulse_Voltage)
\- for HV and pulser.

~~~
deutronium
Thanks a lot for your response, I hadn't seen those recom modules before.

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kelu124
Would be glad to get your comments !

~~~
tuyguntn
Raspberry PI and Arduiono's changed a lot in embedded space, because of price
and flexibility, how this board can change its space? How much does it cost to
build complete solution using this project?

 _However, unlike the technology used in most hospitals across the UK costing
anywhere from £20,000-£100,000, the scanner created by Jeff Neasham and
Research Associate Dave Graham at Newcastle University can be manufactured for
as little as £30-40._ [0]

If thats true, it can be game changer in some developing countries.

[0] -
[http://echopen.org/index.php?title=Article:_Low_cost_design_...](http://echopen.org/index.php?title=Article:_Low_cost_design_makes_ultrasound_imaging_affordable_to_the_world)

~~~
kelu124
Depends on the volume of course, and of the quality of image that is expected.
This board, plus transducer (necessary to get the image) in small volumes,
should be around 200$. Maybe less in higher quantities, and with streamlined
components. Far lower than the usual portable ultrasound scanners (costing
~5k$). But that's a work in progress so let's see!

We were following the Newcastle project, but I guess the tech was finally
bought by NDT -> image quality and framerate were not as good as expected. At
least, haven't seen progress on medical imaging use from this end.

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sangnoir
Apologies for my somewhat off-topic question, which is only tenuously related
to the topic: is there an open-source application that is capable of reading
or converting .vml ultrasound scan files that are produced by proprietary
devices?

~~~
kelu124
No idea! Though, if VML is the Vector Markup Language, then "VML is specified
in Part 4 of the Office Open XML standards". Maybe MVL ?

For medical images, ezDICOM may work ?

~~~
sangnoir
Sorry - I meant .MVL!

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et2o
Everyone is really excited about the future expansion of inky rasping in
medicine (even though it's already been in use for decades). Excited to check
this out.

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kelu124
inky rasping ?

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I'd guess it's an autocorrectism for "ultra sound".

~~~
et2o
Yeah, you're right. Whoops.

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vasili111
That's great! It can help many developing countries.

~~~
sitkack
Esp in sexing female fetuses!

[http://www.bc.edu/clubs/mendel/ethos/archives/2008/younger.s...](http://www.bc.edu/clubs/mendel/ethos/archives/2008/younger.shtml)

> These counterfeit medical professionals lure in clients with advertisements
> outside their clinics stating, “pay 500 Rupees now and save 50,000 in the
> future”. Parents can spare a lot of time and future hardship by terminating
> the pregnancy early and trying again for a son in lieu of having to kill a
> newborn child. The clinics have proven so profitable, that ultrasound
> machines are even finding their way into rural villages that do not have
> potable water (Kumar 1998).

~~~
kelu124
Answer to that one is easy: with the level of details that this board can
provide, one can't find the sex of the fetus - whereas placental location is
still possible - and allows the medical staff to inform the mother and prepare
the birth =)

Still, an issue.

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ausjke
The key question is, how good are the quality for images comparing to others?
Did not find info related to that on the site yet.

