
A Closer Look at the $13B Premium Eyewear Market - walterbell
https://www.businessoffashion.com/articles/intelligence/a-closer-look-at-the-13-billion-premium-eyewear-market
======
petilon
The reason glasses cost so much is because one company owns: (1) nearly all
brand name frames including Ray-Ban, Oakley, Prada eyewear, Armani eyewear and
so on, (2) nearly all retail stores such as LensCrafters, Pearle Vision, Sears
Optical and Target Optical and (3) EyeMed, one of the largest vision insurance
companies.

Luxottica retail brands: [http://www.luxottica.com/en/retail-
brands](http://www.luxottica.com/en/retail-brands)

Luxottica eyewear brands: [http://www.luxottica.com/en/eyewear-
brands](http://www.luxottica.com/en/eyewear-brands)

Luxottica vision insurance:
[http://www.luxottica.com/en/node/6336](http://www.luxottica.com/en/node/6336)

See 60 Minutes story on Luxottica:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDdq2rIqAlM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDdq2rIqAlM)

~~~
walterbell
In Jan 2017, Luxottica announced a merger with the largest lens maker,
Essilor. EU antitrust is reviewing, [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-
luxottica-essilor-merger/...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-luxottica-
essilor-merger/eus-vestager-says-essilor-luxottica-merger-requires-thorough-
vetting-idUSKCN1BD0OY)

In turn, Essilor has ownership in Shamir, Eyebuydirect, FramesDirect, Coastal,
Coolwinks, Costa Del Mar, Elens, Eotica and Foster Grant,
[https://www.essilor.com/en/the-group/activities-and-
distribu...](https://www.essilor.com/en/the-group/activities-and-
distribution/distribution/)

If EU regulators allow the merger to go through, one $50B company will own the
most online channels for eyeglasses and contacts, in addition to lens
manufacturing & retail storefronts & vision insurance.

~~~
dnh44
They also own lots of optical machine building companies as well as factories
all over the world. It’s pretty much impossible to be in the optical business
and not buy from Essilor.

------
tech5000
As I write this, I am attending SILMO 2017 optical trade show in Paris. I've
been attending for a few years and what you see when talking to industry
participants is that there is real aversion to business models that can
disrupt the industry to lower costs. Frame suppliers that sell to brick-and-
mortar shops will very often refuse to sell to e-commerce players, for fear of
alienating their brick and mortar accounts for example. Opticians will often
refuse to disclose pupillary distance, as a way to prevent their customer from
purchasing elsewhere. Many states/provinces/countries have pre-Internet laws
on the books that effectively disallow selling online, and efforts to amend
those laws to keep pace with technology are aggressively derailed by special
interest groups.

As noted elsewhere in this discussion, it was expensive before. Independent
opticians feel attacked on one side by e-commerce, and on the other side by
Essilor/Luxottica, chains in general, and big-box stores The real issue may be
that they can't see the value in changing how they have always worked or that
even if individual opticians are open to change, they are stuck in a supply
chain that may hold exactly the opposite view.

~~~
csomar
The opticians are safe and sound for now but if I were in the business I'd be
weary.

1\. augmented reality could get real and good very fast. Lots of people will
be comfortable testing glasses at home instead of checking the optician.
Visiting the optician is the most awkward shop I go to.

2\. How long before we have advanced cameras and the eye test could be done
online? Well, I think a bit longer than I'd think but that's in the realm of
possibilities.

~~~
stereosky
I feel that we need to see an uptick in automation/computer vision in the
machines at the opticians before we're likely to see any sort of capability of
the same at home. I would feel safer if the machines made diagnoses and there
was an onsite optometrist/ophthalmologist for verification.

Also some conditions such as glaucoma can be difficult to test
([http://www.glaucoma.org/glaucoma/diagnostic-
tests.php](http://www.glaucoma.org/glaucoma/diagnostic-tests.php)). I remember
one of the tests is to use a tonometer to check pressure by firing a puff of
air at the eye, so for any of the tests today that give output values, these
could feasibly be administered at home but wouldn't form a complete picture of
our eye's health.

Interesting to think what an "opticians" could be in 20 years from now.

~~~
walterbell
State of the art in eye imaging sensors is the equipment used in Lasik
surgery. Already being used to supplement smaller opticians with remote
optometrists,
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15374489](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15374489)

------
hkmurakami
If you're ever in Japan or Taiwan, have some glasses made there. JINS in Japan
is ~$120 including lenses, lenses ready in 3 hours. Pick up same day. I heard
there's a company in Taiwan with a similar business model as well.

They're set up to handle tourists, and will handle duty free as well.

~~~
walterbell
They have free shipping. Hi-index single vision lenses are included in frame
prices, [https://www.jins.com](https://www.jins.com).

JINS PC (blue-light blocking) glasses were an industry marketing breakthrough,
selling almost 1 million units in the first year,
[https://corp.jins.com/jp/en/company/history](https://corp.jins.com/jp/en/company/history).
Their success prompted eyeglass lens makers to launch blue-blocking coatings,
now widely available.

~~~
semi-extrinsic
Can anyone shed some light on whether blue-blocking coatings are actually
useful/good for you?

~~~
teslabox
> Can anyone shed some light on whether blue-blocking coatings are actually
> useful/good for you?

A HN comment set me looking for some blue-blockers for night driving:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14170975](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14170975)

My locally-owned sunglass shop stocks yellow blue blocker safety goggles that
fit over my glasses. They turn obnoxious blue headlights green. I give them a
'blue headlight obnoxiousness reduction factor' of 85%.

The orange safety goggles ("uvex") I ordered from Amazon first were better
(95%), but they block out too much green to be safe for night driving.

[http://cocoonseyewear.com/find_a_dealer/](http://cocoonseyewear.com/find_a_dealer/)
\- overx.com (imprinted on my yellow glasses) redirects to this site, but what
I have isn't shown on their site...

------
Fezzik
if you’re in to avoiding paying hyper-inflated costs to support entrenched and
anticompetitive markets, like what eyeglsses have been for years, I higly
recommend Zenni Optical. They have highly customizable options and are great
glasses, especially for the price.

[http://www.zennioptical.com](http://www.zennioptical.com)

Edit: spelling

~~~
arkades
My best experience to date for avoiding price-gouging has actually been at
Costco's in-house optical.

My experience with Zenni was of the "you get what you pay for" variety.

~~~
slackingoff2017
Same here. Zenni frames are cheap, and the lenses are pretty good. But the
frames are built from cheap plastic, and so are the linkages, they just plate
them with metallic coating. I've had the linkages break on 10+ pairs from
fairly innocent things like falling asleep with them on.

They work fine, but it's like buying anything else designed to be disposable.
Make sure you have a few pairs on hand for backup

~~~
pravda
I've had lots of Zenni frames and I've had exactly the opposite experience.

I sleep on them, drop them, subject them to all kinds of mistreatment, and
they don't break!

Ok, they eventually break, but it takes a few years of mistreatment. I get my
$12.95 out of them!

------
swampthinker
I'm surprised Warby Parker isn't mentioned at all in this article. Isn't their
whole business model built on tackling this market?

~~~
whathaschanged
No, their business model is based on pretending like they are saving you money
when they are just ripping off the customer for marginally less with fancy
branding like dollar shave club. Look at Zenni Optical and tell me I'm wrong.

~~~
09bjb
Not sure why this is getting tons of downvotes. Warby Parker's profitability
per retail square foot is one of the highest in all of retail mostly because
there's such a distance between what their frames cost to make and what they
sell them for. Limited choice (Trader Joe's style) and a good sense for the
products their target market wants seem to be their secret sauces to pulling
off crazy margins on said products.

~~~
swyx
>profitability per retail square foot is one of the highest

are these numbers public? source?

~~~
walterbell
[https://www.fastcompany.com/3041334/warby-parker-sees-the-
fu...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3041334/warby-parker-sees-the-future-of-
retail)

 _"...the company is still averaging about $3,000 per square foot of retail
space, a figure that’s in the same breath as Tiffany’s estimated $3,043 ...
stores are not profit centers as much as marketing collateral, giant
advertisements for Warby Parker’s website. “They’re synergistic,” he says,
noting that 85% of Warby retail buyers have already browsed online."_

~~~
swyx
amazing.

------
feynman112
A friend of mine used to work in operations for Luxottica. IIRC after digging
for some numbers - at least half of their eyewear sales come from Rayban and
cost price sits at arond $9.

------
frostburg
I didn't do it to avoid the Luxottica monopoly, but I moved to Mykita frames
(fitted with zeiss or hoya lenses, since I like my sunglasses to be corrected
too - can't wear contacts) and I wholeheartedly recommend them.

The steel ones are exceptionally light and easy to clean. Design is
subjective, but the 'studio' line is generally rather inoffensive (I do have a
pair of the Damir Doma ones, too -
[https://my.mixtape.moe/ffhahq.jpg](https://my.mixtape.moe/ffhahq.jpg)). Their
screw-less hinges are pretty great. The prices are high, but they're low
volume objects and there is probably a lot less gouging going on. There are
other non-luxottica boutique makers, too.

~~~
walterbell
There's a 200 page, 8-years running, active thread on eyewear/frame selection,
[https://www.styleforum.net/threads/ask-me-about-
eyewear.1205...](https://www.styleforum.net/threads/ask-me-about-
eyewear.120500/)

Boutique frames are not usually available online, only from authorized B&M
retailers. Because of the cost, opticians only carry a few models. Sometimes
older models show up on Amazon and eBay. A few models are available at
[http://www.pretavoir.co.uk/us/](http://www.pretavoir.co.uk/us/) and
[http://framesdirect.com](http://framesdirect.com) (owned by Essilor, soon to
be Luxxotica).

~~~
frostburg
I'm a bit confused about people buying glasses online. How do they check for
comfort? What about the prescription lenses?

~~~
walterbell
For frames and single vision lenses, ideally you would be able to find out:

    
    
      - frame width (temple to temple)
      - bridge size (nose width)
      - A size (width of lens)
      - B size (height of lens)
      - temple length (arm that goes over ear)
      - base curve / frame wrap angle
      - panto (vertical incline of lens)
    

Frame manufacturer's web site has some info, at least [lens width - bridge -
temple] are provided. To determine frame fit, you need sizes from current
frame or model numbers from frames tested at a B&M store.

An optician will measure where your eyes are located horizontally (pupillary
distance) and vertically in the frame (fitting height). This determines where
the optical center (clearest vision) of the lens will be located in the frame.
Most online sites for single vision lenses do not have an input field for
fitting height, using averages instead. But they often have a "special
instructions" field where you can enter custom instructions, including fitting
height. HN thread on PD measurement:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15154066](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15154066)

Progressive (varifocal) lenses are complex to buy even at B&M, never mind
online, because fitting and use-case analysis matter more than with single
vision lenses.

Since FramesDirect is owned by Essilor, they use Essilor lenses, which are
well known. Other online sites don't say much about their lens manufacturer.
[http://eyeglasslensdirect.com](http://eyeglasslensdirect.com) (US) and
[http://specsdirect.ca](http://specsdirect.ca) (Canada) sell branded premium
lenses at discount prices, online reviews are mixed. There are 1700 old msgs
about cheap online glasses at
[https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?hl=en#!forum/glassyeyes](https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?hl=en#!forum/glassyeyes)

If the Luxxotica-Essilor merger goes through, retail stores like LensCrafters
may start providing fitting/adjustment for online stores. A better outcome
would be for independent opticians to unbundle their fitting/adjustment
pricing, so you can buy your frames at one store (or reuse a high quality
frame), a premium branded lens at another store/online, and obtain your frame
fitting at a B&M optician.

------
noahmbarr
FRAMES \- $0.50-1.50: Injection modeled (plastic) frames. Everything is pretty
much made in China. \- $2.00-3.50: Metal frames. There were something like 3
factories still left in Italy 15 years ago, but I imagine everything has moved
to China by this point.

LENS Local labs (and increasingly regional labs) mass customize these lens
blanks based on frame and prescription details. \- $7-11: For a pair of single
vision lenses \- $35-40: For a pair of transition lenses with progressive
prescription \- A couple dollars for labor AT MOST \- A couple dollars for
additional high end treatments that isn't already backed into the blanks
(large CapEx now involved in these treatment machines hence the
regionalization of these labs).

VISION INSURANCE \- More of a discount program than insurance \- Labs are
often what "vision insurance" own with a discount program that is extended to
you via these services at your local optometrist. \- Medical insurance (not
your vision insurance) covers anything serious...generally when you need to go
see an Opthamologist or a Eye surgeon

LUXOTTICA They are aggressive, smart, license a good chunk of the luxury
brands, AND vertically integrated to the nth degree. And yes, they own one of
the largest "vision insurance" companies too, EyeMed.

------
dreamcompiler
I bought my most recent frames at a shop in Tokyo to avoid the Luxottica
monopoly. They were 1/3 the price, the frame is the best (in terms of both
style and ruggedness) I've ever owned, and the optics match my prescription
better than any I've ever owned. If you're visiting Japan, bring a recent
eyeglass prescription with you!

~~~
walterbell
Can you recommend that store? Looking for an English-speaking store that can
sell Seiko lenses that are only available in the Japanese market.

~~~
dreamcompiler
Jun Ginza near Hotel Monterey Ginza. They don't speak much english but it's a
small shop and they're VERY helpful.
[https://www.google.com/search?q=jun+ginza&oq=jun+ginza&aqs=c...](https://www.google.com/search?q=jun+ginza&oq=jun+ginza&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l2.6643j0j4)

------
shusson
Every time I walk into an eyewear place, I walk out feeling frustrated and
angry. That being said, I recently found
[https://dresden.com.au/](https://dresden.com.au/), who are making decent
prescription glasses for as low as $50 AU.

~~~
SyneRyder
Thanks for the recommendation, I love the German/Australian crossover
marketing on that site. I wish they weren't so hipster looking, but I'm still
tempted to visit the store anyway. Something about their attitude and approach
to business really grabs me.

------
anonintons
Does anyone know if the various brands of lens matters, e.g. Nikon v Hoya v
Carl Zeiss...

I have pretty bad vision, -9.0 and astigmatism so the optometrist recommend I
get 1.74 high index lenses from Nikon [1], because according to him, it would
be "harder/more impact resistant" and the quality would be better.

I also got additional coatings, like anti-reflective, blue light, UV, etc...

So I'm just wondering, if the brand actually matters or are they also all made
by a single large factory? Are Nikon lenses that much better than the generic
ones from Warby Parker?

1\. [http://nikonlenswear.com/products/see-series/seecoat-
plus](http://nikonlenswear.com/products/see-series/seecoat-plus)

~~~
walterbell
Nikon has a joint venture with Essilor (soon to be Luxottica), so their lenses
are very similar: [https://www.essilor.com/en/medias/news/nikon-
essilor-15-year...](https://www.essilor.com/en/medias/news/nikon-
essilor-15-years-of-partnership/) &
[https://www.optiboard.com/forums/showthread.php/56186-Nikon-...](https://www.optiboard.com/forums/showthread.php/56186-Nikon-
vs-Essilor-Lenses)

Here is a chart on lens materials:
[http://64.50.176.246/tools/materials.php](http://64.50.176.246/tools/materials.php)

------
mirko22
There are still good glasses out there that are not Luxottica. One example is
Serengeti from Bushnell Corporation which has state of the art sun glasses.

I don't think Luxottica has anything going for them apart from monopoly. All
their glasses are made with same technology, RayBan did not change last 50
years.

[http://www.serengeti-eyewear.com/](http://www.serengeti-eyewear.com/)

------
jgalt212
Europeans seem to wear glasses at a much higher rate than Americans. Is there
is structural reason for the preference of glasses over contacts?

~~~
vidoc
In France, this industry is nothing short of fascinating, it's just an
enormous bubble, almost entirely financed by the public sector, it's a market
that is so broken it's almost hilarious. You basically have the glass covered
by the government, as well as very basic frames, that you will typically not
consider, since your company insurance policy probably comes with a plan
covering frames.

As a customer, you don't really care, its mostly free for you of course, or
worst case scenario you will have to do the deductible. When you go to a store
with your prescription, they don't even bother talking about the cost side of
things, all they want to know is what insurance you have. In a way it has a
few similarities with the US health care system, prices are ridiculously high,
often very opaque, sort of like in a legal mafia. In addition to this, the few
people who have cornered this business have made sure it's hard to buy
contacts or vision glasses in the next country. To give you an idea, just the
glasses typically cost something like 200, except per glass, and as you know
you will need two. They also have no problem charging you all kinds of useless
options you don't need, the classic for example, consists in automatically
adding the anti glare coding option by default if the client is an older
person.

~~~
bambax
All true. Also, since the glasses are better covered than the frames, vendors
routinely offer to move the cost for the frames onto the glasses, so for
example if you want a frame that costs €300 (!) but your insurance covers up
to €200 for frames then they will charge €200 for the frame and an extra €50
for each glass.

This is completely illegal but every shop does it (suggests it without
prompting from customers).

It's all insane but there seems no way to stop it.

Many online shops have started to appear but they too charge a lot (all
reimbursed by public/private insurance). There doesn't seem to be really cheap
options.

~~~
kashyapc
Oh dear. That sounds sickening. (I'm due for a new pair of glasses and I'm in
Western Europe).

Recently, I happened to visit a store to look for a new pair of frames (&
glasses). The frames were so insanely expensive I _had_ to ask the guy: "Why
are they so expensive?". The guy's short reply was: "It's the brand". When I
pressed further to explain, he couldn't say anything meaningful.

Moreover, the quality of these "branded" glasses from my tactile inspection
felt subpar (as in, I was wondering: "will they even last a couple of
years?").

/me is still on the look out for a reliable way to find something reasonable
without shelling out an arm and a leg. (Don't mind paying for good quality.)

~~~
walterbell
Try this:
[https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?&_nkw=modo+frame+auth+new](https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?&_nkw=modo+frame+auth+new)

If you find a model number that you like, do a web search for "modo model_no"
to find out the exact size and normal price. Make sure the size is close
enough to a frame that you have tried and found to be a good fit.

If you have a strong prescription, you'll want a frame with a narrower lens
width, otherwise the edges of the lens will be thick, even with hi-index
materials.

~~~
kashyapc
Ah, thank you for the suggestion, I'll certainly give it try. (And no, not a
strong prescription.)

------
richard___
I'm interested in making frames for a niche market. And then we can grow to
become mainstream. If you're a skilled frames designer, send me a PM, I can
finance the project and "handle the business side" (serious).

~~~
ec109685
How do you pm someone here?

~~~
bagels
You can't... Typically people put their email address in their profile (if
they want to be contacted), though obviously not everyone does it.

~~~
DanBC
And the email address needs to go in the about field if you want people to see
it. The email field is only seen by HN Mods. (I think - I'm not a mod).

------
davidgay
It does appear to be possible to avoid this, my frames at least come from
[http://morel-france.com/](http://morel-france.com/) (the French Jura made
glasses - [http://morel-france.com/history-1880/](http://morel-
france.com/history-1880/), the Swiss Jura made watches?) and
[http://www.undostrial.com/](http://www.undostrial.com/) ...

------
jnsaff2
If anyone is looking for high visual clarity and quality sunglasses then I
can't recommend anything higher than Serengeti [0]. I have two pair (bought
second only because I wanted polarized lenses too) and the world looks even
better than without. Putting on Ban Rays or some other "luxury" brand after
Serengetis is now awful.

[0] [http://www.serengeti-eyewear.com/](http://www.serengeti-eyewear.com/)

------
pingec
I don't wear glasses myself but my father seems quite happy with most of the
frames I have ordered for him so far on aliexpress
[https://www.aliexpress.com/store/201163](https://www.aliexpress.com/store/201163)

------
kakaorka
It's very clear to me that the eyewear market needs more competition at the
moment.

------
jccalhoun
I've bought my last two pair of glasses online. I used eyebuydirect.com but
39dollarglasses.com is another one. It takes a few weeks to get the glasses
but it was around $100 for bifocals.

------
nkristoffersen
I do [https://www.warbyparker.com/](https://www.warbyparker.com/). Actually a
fan of the build quality.

