
Underwater Exploring Is Banned in Brazil (1985) - nonbel
https://www.nytimes.com/1985/06/25/science/underwater-exploring-is-banned-in-brazil.html
======
Dravidian
Governments at odds with archeology to protect the origin story of the country
is common across the world.

In India, as recent as latter part of this decade archeologists found gold
mine of evidence for >2100 year old Tamil civilization at Keezhadi including
Roman artifacts[0].

There was no evidence of Hinduism found, for the matter of fact no religious
artifacts of known organised religions was found there.

The archeologist who made the discovery was transferred and the excavations
was halted. Fortunately, Tamil civilization is still very much in existence in
the state of Tamilnadu,India; so the matter was taken to court and the court
has now ordered continuation of excavation at Keezhadi & ordered the original
archeologist back to the site[1].

But there has been numerous hurdles since, a blatant obstruction by the
central government.

India is a culmination of several such civilizations, but the ruling party
wants to project India as a 'Hindu Nation' which magically originated before
any other civilization in the world. Unfortunately, they have the popular
support for obvious reasons (You'll likely witness in the comments ).

Wiki[2].

[0]: [https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/keezhadi-
hittin...](https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/keezhadi-hitting-pay-
dirt-and-controversy/article19779268.ece)

[1]: [https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/keezhadi-
excavations-h...](https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/keezhadi-excavations-
hc-orders-transfer-asi-officer-amarnath-ramakrishna-tn-98413)

[2]:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeladi](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeladi)

~~~
narrator
This really makes me wonder why controlling the understanding of anything
older than 3000 years ago is such a big deal. Isn't there a statute of
limitations on this kind of thing?

It might be tied to the ancient notions of lineage that have somehow persisted
into the modern era and for bettet or fot worse link the ancient with the
modern.

~~~
freeflight
It's to manufacture legitimization for all kinds of claims.

One of the most notorious examples for this is probably Israel [0].

[0] [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/the-twisted-logic-of-
the...](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/the-twisted-logic-of-the-jewish-
historic-right-to-israel-1.6654428)

~~~
mirimir
For an interesting take on the ancient history of conflict among Semitic
tribes, I recommend Matthew Woodring Stover's _Jericho Moon_. The ancient
Hebrews come across a lot like marauding Bedouin tribes.

------
bkmeneguello
I'm Brazilian so take my opinion with a bit o salt and pepper. I have no
doubts our government circa 1985 was totally capable of such things. It was a
military government, with lots of censorship (but 85 was they last days). So
anything that could raise any question about our national identity was a
threat for them. About the feasibility of atlantic crossings from west to
east, mainly by odd, it's perfectly possible. The travel back otherwise is
another history. Probably they mixed with our native inhabitants and they
genes disappeared with the time (and with the arrival of portuguese in 1500).
Even today, to question Brazilians national identity is tabu here.

~~~
alganet
I can see the 85 government willing to do that (I'm brazillian as well).

I doubt the Romans would arrive here though. They were not navy focused at
all. There are detailed accounts of all sorts of trouble they went just to
cross to Britain.

At the same time, we had plenty of pre-culumbian tribes here who were masters
at pottery (like the Marajoara culture). These are probably pottery jars from
one of these cultures.

I found funny what you said about this being a tabu. I don't feel that at all
here in Brazil. On the contrary. Brazillians I know acknowledge the Pedra
Furada site, for example, but most other countries ignore it, specially the US
with their Clover first narrative.

~~~
gcb0
> I found funny what you said about this being a tabu. I don't feel that at
> all here in Brazil. On the contrary. Brazillians I know acknowledge [...]

do not mix up the current Brazil with the Brazil from a few years ago.

under the worker's party Brazil had great recognition of native cultures and
new museums. under the current, elected under a parliament coup (the preferred
left candidate just left political prison last week, after a year without
trial), all that is gone, and the biggest two museums with Indian artifacts
burned to the ground in under three months, one barely showing in the
midia.... so go figure.

> I can see the 85 government willing to do that

the current government has a general as vice president (and the president is a
failed military career turned professional politician), and everyone in the
education ministry are career military, just like the 60s. I find it odd that
you can see the problem clearly on the previous coup but not on this one.

~~~
ulzeraj
Please keep obvious political propaganda out of this side. You may not like
the current government and neither do I but the previous one was not healthy
at all for our country.

~~~
gcb0
you could practice what you preach :) I didn't vote for either, even on the
last election, and would not have voted for him even if he was running. I'm
further left.

> but the previous one was not healthy at all for our country

if enacting the very laws that allowed to go after the politic corrupt class
in power since forever (even if backfired when it started to work), started a
minimum income program in the entire country, paid off the international debt,
kept oil reserves for national companies, etc. is a bad goverment... I guess
you are right.

~~~
ulzeraj
Maybe not your intention but thats basically what I would expect from a
worker's party political propaganda.

It was bad because we got hit like a truck as soon as commodities prices and
China's economy decelerated and government spending did not adjusted at all.
Specially bad when lots of public money went to few conglomerates that were
part of billionaire corruption schemes, bribe and money laundering. Also
sending billions to other African and Central and South American dictatorships
- infrastructure projects handled by the same companies involved in domestic
corruption scandals. The Brazilian Worker's Party and companies like Odebrecht
have a big finger in everything that's happening in Venezuela right now.

And let me say this about Bolsa Família: the minimum income program was
created by Ruth Cardoso, the First Lady before Lula's presidency. Lula's
original plan was called "Fome Zero" (Zero Hunger) and revolved about
government supplying food to poor people much like Chavez did. He ended
following mrs Cardosos' plan which is way better than his original idea but
also bad because it had no escape mechanism like tying it to educational
programs and was used over and over again to coerce the poor population into
voting to the workers party.

Please. I may not know about what a bad government is but apparently further
left means cherry picking facts to tell your own ideological charged version
of history. Even PSOL (Freedom and Socialism Party) member Luciana Genro
agrees that Lula and Dilma were criminals that looted the country and should
be in jail.

I'm really sorry but every time you tell some rose tinted story about how
things were good, names and terms like Odebrecht, Mensalão, JBS, Mariel's
Port, Pasadena's Refinery, OAS and Camargo Correa will pop up. So as a
brazilian it is a bit hard to swallow and borderline offensive okay?

~~~
Iemanja
So much bullshit

And thanks for the guy who thanks me for my nice argument in the immediate
future

~~~
dang
Can you please review the site guidelines and stick to them when commenting
here, no matter how strongly you feel about an issue or how wrong someone else
is? That's the only way this community can continue without destroying itself.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
jdmoreira
I'm Portuguese so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Did the Romans really have the tech to cross the Atlantic? I mean... it's
though job!

We know Roman history very very well and no where in their records is this
mentioned? Sounds very weird to me.

~~~
reaperducer
I'm not sure how much tech you need. More like planning and luck.

Think about the vast ocean distances the Polynesian people covered, and it's
my understanding that their level of technology was less than the Romans.
Though I'm not really knowledgeable in that area.

~~~
cmrdporcupine
Polynesians never crossed large open oceans. They island hopped.

~~~
empath75
The longest distance between islands is longer than the shortest distance
between Africa and South America. So it’s at least _possible_ with relatively
primitive technology.

~~~
wavefunction
Polynesians had and still have extremely sophisticated stellar and solar
navigation techniques (as well as deep observational knowledge of oceans and
marine life) that far exceeded recorded European techniques until the advent
of tools like astrolabes and sextants in the 1700s, as far as the extent of
travel distances. There has been growing evidence of Polynesian contact with
South America, including the presence of sweet potatoes (South American
origin) which may have just dispersed somehow westward over the Pacific as
seeds. But chicken bones (a South Asian origin) have been radio carbon dated
to the 1300s in Chile. And a Polynesian settlement in the Auckland islands in
the sub-antarctic dating to the 13th century has been found.

------
SCAQTony
It's hard to believe that a stern mounted oar-rudder would be a viable
steering mechanism to make a 5,700 nautical mile trip from Rome to Rio de
Janeiro especially since the "New World" is 1,000 miles closer. Europe had to
wait until the Renaissance to get its rudder technology more robust.

The Brazillian law was probably a forward-thinking act to protect antiquities
from leaving the country in the event there were underwater artifacts.

~~~
tim333
[https://www2.rgzm.de/Navis/Ships/Ship118/Image/118F3005.jpg](https://www2.rgzm.de/Navis/Ships/Ship118/Image/118F3005.jpg)

Photo of a reconstructed Roman rudder. Doesn't look so bad?

~~~
SCAQTony
Thank you for the photo; this is the best one I have seen. I suspect the ropes
could not secure each of those rudders in place for a transatlantic crossing
even in moderate seas.

------
kdtop
Has anyone been able to find if there is any further progress on this site in
the decades that have since passed after this article was published?

~~~
nonbel
Someone on quora said they recently began trying to look again:

>"Sir Robert Marx and I are now in the process of reinitiating the research we
began in 1983 on this location where we found 3rd century Roman amphora. A
sub-bottom profile scan by Doc Harold Edgerton identified a large non-natural
object deep in the sediment, below the place we found the amphora. We believe
that this is in fact a Roman wreck and are out to scientifically prove it.

#jameslynchexplorer"

[https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-a-Roman-galley-was-
fou...](https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-a-Roman-galley-was-found-sunk-
off-the-coast-of-Brazil/answer/James-Lynch-128)

------
based2
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-
oceanic_co...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-
oceanic_contact_theories#Claims_involving_ancient_Roman_contact)

------
Iemanja
If you take the "barca" from praca 15 to the Island of Paqueta, where I grew
up, learn to swim, and at age 6 read my first books, I remember Jonnathan
Livingstone Seagull , The crime genius, Tistu the green finger boy, Mamae nao
pode saber, E proibido chorar, The little prince...

So when you take the barca and cross the Guanabara Bay, its like when you take
the ferry train to cross from Hamburg to Copenhagen, and see the light
generating crazy windmills, but is Dolphins who swimm and jump together with
the barca going the same way to the Island of Paqueta

I remember when I was in Denmark, I stay at the home of a friend family in a
farm, so beautiful, they are very nice and very knowledgeable, and the old
father takes me to the woods to look for deers, and we were there in silence
in the woods and I hear a sound in the leaves, and say something, and the old
man says "there" and we see

Then we walk back to the wooden house, and on the way I say

You have good eyes

And the father says

You have good years

I love denmark and my family of friends

------
alganet
The Romans were not good ship builders. I'm skeptic.

~~~
jdietrich
You don't need to be a good ship builder to cross the Atlantic. Thanks to the
North Equatorial Current, you can launch almost any buoyant object off the
West African coast and it'll wash up somewhere on the east coast of the
American continent. You don't need sails, you don't need oars, you don't even
need a tiller; you just need buoyancy, enough fresh water to survive the trip
and the knowledge that the current exists. The Atlantic has been crossed on an
array of utterly unsuitable craft including rafts, survival capsules and
inflatable dinghies; an elderly French man is currently attempting to cross in
a large wine barrel.

[https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/frenchman-jean-jacques-
sa...](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/frenchman-jean-jacques-savin-adrift-
in-barrel-hopes-for-land-on-horizon-after-100-days-mjxqwsdf0)

~~~
HarryHirsch
To end up in the Americas you'd first have to catch the Canary current. It's
not certain that the Romans went that far south, although the _Periplus
Hannonis_ attests that a Carthaginian expedition sailed as far as Mount
Cameroon.

From the _Periplus Maris Erythraei_ we know that the India trade was well
established in Roman times, but crossing the Arabian Sea and crossing the
Atlantic are two different things. One you can do in a dhow, the other not so
much.

------
yongjik
> The Brazilian Navy has (...) in turn charged Mr. Marx with ''contraband'' of
> objects recovered from other wrecks in this country. (...) the Brazilian
> officials showed a catalogue of an auction held in Amsterdam in 1983 in
> which, they said, gold coins, instruments and artifacts removed from
> shipwrecks in Brazil were offered for sale on behalf of Mr. Marx and his
> associates.

> Several attempts to give Mr. Marx the opportunity to respond to these
> charges were unsuccessful. One phone call ended abruptly when Mr Marx said,
> ''Don't bother me,'' and then hung up.

I have to side with the Brazilian government here, not because I think they're
right (I don't know) but because their action will lead to the least harm.

If Marx is right, and Brazil has its say, then the worst that can happen is
that an archeological site will be buried in a known location for several
decades until someone else will give another try.

If Brazil is right, and Marx has his say, then the worst that can happen is
that an irreplaceable archeological site will be plundered in haste with 20th
century technology (which is, let's admit, not that great in digging up
underwater ruins without destroying them), forever losing an opportunity to
learn more about ancient Romans who made it to Brazil.

Not all wonders have to be excavated in our own generation.

------
Entalpi
Does anyone have an more sources that mention Romans in other parts of the
world?

~~~
nextos
The Romans visited the Canary Islands. This is well known and acknowledged by
mainstream History.

The Canary Islands are a great stop en route to America. In fact, that's the
one Columbus used.

~~~
gruez
>The Canary Islands are a great stop en route to America. In fact, that's the
one Columbus used.

If you're implying that should be used as evidence supporting romans having
explored north america, that's really a stretch. Looking at a map, the canary
islands are close to the roman empire's territory and the romans could have
been there for plenty of reasons besides going to north america.

see:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Islas_Canarias_(real_loca...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Islas_Canarias_\(real_location\)_in_Spain.svg)
and
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Roman_Em...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Roman_Empire_Trajan_117AD.png)

~~~
nextos
I have not implied it can be used as evidence.

------
empath75
I’d think most countries would be happy to claim a connection to Rome.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Why?

------
mothsonasloth
If the theories about Norsemen crossing to North America are true, then I
don't see it being too farfetched that the Romans could have done it too.

~~~
wavefunction
Romans didn't possess longboats which were capable of sea travel as well as
riverine navigation. Romans stuck to coastal waters.

------
leandrod
This is beyond ridiculous. I was already 14 in 1985, and coming from a quite
politicised family I already read newspapers, both for our momentous point in
History at the time, and for the Cold War (glad we won that).

Even if the military government did try to boost our national pride with
History that, given what we still know, does necessarily begin with Cabral —
previous landings were inconsequential — there is no way they would not be
happy to claim a Roman connection.

If there is anything to Marx’s claims, it would be because he was (seen as) a
plunderer.

Anyway, the military government finished in March, and then we had a populist,
centre-right government who could not care less for History.

------
fabioyy
whats is more likely? one diver selling gold coins, or a huge conspiracy of
>500 years

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _a huge conspiracy of >500 years_

From the diver’s account, the wreck wasn’t noticed until the modern era. No
need for multi-century conspiracies. That said, yes, it seems more likely he
made this up, given his looting of the antiquities.

