
Hook on PG&E Tower Eyed as Cause of Deadly Camp Fire - curtis
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Hook-on-PGE-Tower-Eyed-as-Cause-of-Deadly-Camp-Fire-502035081.html
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chongli
I've never understood this urge to find the spark that started a wildfire. The
cause of the fire was the large amount of dry vegetation in the area. It
doesn't matter what the spark was. If it hadn't been this hook, it would've
been something else, such as lightning. Lightning strikes start fires all the
time.

Why don't we put more of our efforts into controlled burning in order to keep
the fuel load down? Seems like a much safer approach than trying to prevent
all fires no matter the cause.

~~~
reissbaker
> If it hadn't been this hook, it would've been something else, such as
> lightning.

Yes and no. While it's true that occasionally there will be natural disasters
such as lightning strikes that occur in high-risk areas during times of high
winds, power lines are carrying huge amounts of power all the time and thus
coincide with high winds more than lightning strikes. As an example of how to
mitigate this risk, PG&E has a policy of cutting power to lines temporarily
during high-risk times like extreme winds in high risk areas — although in
another sign of negligence in this case, they failed to follow that procedure
during the windstorm that led to the outbreak of the Camp Fire.

You can't prevent all disasters, but you can mitigate risk, which at least
reduces the incidence rate of disasters. It's starting to look like PG&E was
negligent in their prevention efforts. I agree that doesn't mean they're
entirely to blame, but as a society we still need to hold companies
accountable for negligence so that we help incentivize safety.

~~~
bpicolo
Serious question - how can you hold such companies accountable when fines
would be passed directly to consumers? What sane mechanisms exists for this?

~~~
alasdair_
>Serious question - how can you hold such companies accountable when fines
would be passed directly to consumers?

You wipe out the equity holders at a minimum. And possibly break the company
up Ma Bell style.

~~~
cronix
> And possibly break the company up Ma Bell style.

So PG&E is split into, let's say, 5 different equal, smaller companies. And
Company C caused this fire. Now you have a company 1/5th the size and revenue
having to pay the full load. How would that work?

~~~
dredmorbius
Insurance.

This distributes the risk over the companies (useful financially, bad for risk
mitigation), but also creates an incentive for the insurer to audit policies,
practices, and procedures to minimise risks. Insurance is a pretty powerful
business invention, and is unique amongst virtually all businesses in that it
_seeks out_ risks (and then tries to manage them).

There are smaller power companies within California (most of them are
municipality-owned utilities), and they tend to be fairly accountable to their
individual market-owners.

~~~
chongli
Insurance against wildfires doesn't really work. You get one big event and it
wipes everything out. It doesn't make any sense for the insurance company to
take that bet, unless they're shady and they discharge all of the claims in
bankruptcy.

~~~
dredmorbius
State of California says otherwise to the tune of $12 billion.

 _California statewide wildfire insurance claims nearly $12 billion_

 _For Release: January 31, 2018_

LOS ANGELES, Calif. — Insurance Commissioner Dave Jones today announced that
insurers have received nearly 45,000 insurance claims totaling more than
$11.79 billion in losses from the devastating wildfires that burned across the
state in October and December 2017 damaging and destroying more than 32,000
homes, 4,300 businesses, more than 8,200 vehicles, watercraft, farm vehicles,
and other equipment....*

[https://www.insurance.ca.gov/0400-news/0100-press-
releases/2...](https://www.insurance.ca.gov/0400-news/0100-press-
releases/2018/release013-18.cfm)

Again, _insurance companies internalise rather than externalise risks._ They
also _manage_ risks.

This can mean changes to construction, landscaping, fire response, utilities
operation, activities restrictions (including legal sanctions, e.g.,
restrictions on mowing or tilling during high-fire season), hydrants, and
more.

There are of course limitations to what can be done. A wonderful concept comes
from the field of marine navigation and seamanship:

"The Art of ship handling involves the effective use of forces under control
to overcome the effect of forces not under control."

\-- Charles H. Cotter

That is the essence of _all_ engineering.

California has extensive experience with major catastrophic fires which have
strongly influenced its insurance landscape. The morning of 18 April in 19 and
6 comes to mind.

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fasteddie31003
My two thoughts from the Camp Fire.

1\. Building codes allowed this to happen. Why are people allowed to build
homes with asphalt roofs and wood siding in the urban-wildland interface?
Indoor fire sprinklers are now required by code, why not outdoor fire
sprinklers in interface environments like this?

2\. Could we have an infrared geostationary satellite that could automatically
alert fire crews to new infrared events? How about having helicopters on
standby ready to respond within minutes of a satellite-sensed infrared flair
up?

~~~
s0rce
Rooftop sprinklers don't even seem that difficult to install. The house I rent
part of has them and they are basically just teed off the same lines that
supply the hose bibs on the outside of the house. No risk of freezing pipes
over here (SF Bay Area) so its pretty simple.

~~~
stickfigure
I live on rural property just outside the Bay Area. I can tell you that when
there is fire nearby, people do run sprinklers.

Sprinklers aren't magic. They have a very limited range and you must run them
for many hours to saturate the area. They might protect you against falling
embers but they're not going to slow down a fire jumping tree to tree. And you
aren't going to wet down multiple acres of land.

If you're on well (and in the country, everyone is) then you need electricity
to run the pumps; did the fire cut you off? Did PG&E, for safety? Very very
few solar systems can operate disconnected from the grid. But maybe you have a
generator? When was the last time you started it, and do you know how to
disconnect the grid and hook it up to the pumps?

Maybe you have a pool and a gas powered pump. When was the last time you ran
it? Will it start on the first pull or do you need to rebuild the carb before
the fire arrives?

We had a big scare just this last year. We (and everyone else in the
neighborhood) ran every sprinkler we had for days. Would it have helped?
Maybe, in marginal cases. Mostly it was a good exercise to make us realize how
underprepared we really are.

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ruytlm
Worth noting that in the 2009 Black Saturday bushfires in Australia, there was
an AU$494 million class action[0] settlement against a power company (and
others), as that fire was determined to have started from power lines.

That said, I'd wait until a proper forensic decision is reached; I can't say I
expect a news channel to be too rigorous in its determination of whether a
damaged tower caused the fire, or whether the fire damaged the tower.

I also agree with the other comment regarding the need for more
controlled/prescribed burning; in Australia again, it is a reasonably
established prevention strategy[1], with a long history among indigenous
Australians[2].

[0]: [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-23/judge-approves-
black-...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-23/judge-approves-black-
saturday-class-action-settlement/5984374)

[1]: [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-13/is-the-prescribed-
bur...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-13/is-the-prescribed-burn-window-
closing-in-australia/10236048)

[2]: [https://landcareaustralia.org.au/project/traditional-
aborigi...](https://landcareaustralia.org.au/project/traditional-aboriginal-
burning-modern-day-land-management/)

~~~
traek
Possibly more relevant than the 2009 Australian fires are the 2017 California
wildfires from last year in the same area, for which this same utility (PG&E)
has liability expected to exceed $2.5 billion[0].

[0] [https://www.sacbee.com/latest-
news/article213580349.html](https://www.sacbee.com/latest-
news/article213580349.html)

~~~
ruytlm
Wasn't aware of this, thanks.

Also interesting that three weeks before the Camp Fire began, PG&E were
cutting power during high winds.[0]

[0]: [https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/nation-
now/2018/10/15/p...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/nation-
now/2018/10/15/pge-voluntarily-shut-off-power-north-california-
wildfires/1646686002/)

------
blendo
The tower carried 115 kV and was built in 1919 according to
[https://www.chicoer.com/2018/12/07/it-was-originally-
built-i...](https://www.chicoer.com/2018/12/07/it-was-originally-built-
in-1919-what-failed-on-pge-tower-at-heart-of-camp-fire-probe/)

San Francisco Gas and Electric Company and the California Gas and Electric
Corporation merged to form PG&E in 1905.

This technology dates from the almost the earliest days: both Nikola Tesla (d
1943) and Thomas Edison (d 1931) were still alive when this tower was built,
and George Westinghouse died only in 1914.

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8bitsrule
The attitude which leads to failure to maintain fits right in with the
thousands of D-rated bridges in the U.S. Hey, it's still working and the
profits are nice, who needs taxes. Seems laughing at Grandma Millie is still
in style.

~~~
matis140
I would think it is a bit different. PG&E is not government and doesn't
collect taxes. Those lines originally may have been public property, but I do
not know if they still are? I know PG&E talked about burieing them a few years
ago after a large fire caused by overloaded transmition lines in North
Cali....too expensive. Pretty sure that math Will come out the same way again.

Anyway Gov collects plenty of money for infrastructure projects they would
just rather funnel the money into their own pockets via war spending.

------
ocschwar
Much as Californians love to hate on PG&E, and much as PG&E has worked might
hard to earn the hate, it's not appropriate to speak of a singular cause of
the Camp Fire.

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ctdonath
Might "Atlas shrug"? Company could respond to liability lawsuits by literally
taking down its infrastructure, every line & pole.

~~~
jessaustin
That would be a boon for solar installers!

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bhhaskin
Warning! Auto playing video ad!

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dirkdk
yeah as a state we need to limit if not down right outlaw power lines above
the ground. Which will be a huge investment and definitely something that PG&E
is not going to suggest themselves. But home owners and insurance companies
have an interest here. Apart from the 80 people that died, what is the damage
in those buildings and loss of economic activity? Much more than putting power
lines underground.

------
randyrand
When the Chicago fire happened, people scapegoated a cow. This feels much the
same.

------
cma
Why don't we have a system of aerial drones to monitor this stuff with thermal
cameras and be able to respond to incipient fires extremely fast by
dispatching aerial firefighting, etc.?

~~~
stdplaceholder
Why would an executive at PG&E give two shits about that? They get paid via
the shell company that owns the utility and their profits are guaranteed by
the public regulator while their liabilities are limited by their corporate
structure.

~~~
tedsanders
I worked at SDG&E shortly after they paid $700M for starting fires in 2007.
From my vantage point in the org, I saw that (a) the executives felt
pressured, (b) much of the cost was borne by shareholders not ratepayers, and
(c) this incentivized the company to invest more proactively in fire
prevention strategies.

Sources:

-CPUC rejects SDG&E's attempt to pass on costs: [https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/energy-green/s...](https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/energy-green/sd-fi-sempra-earnings-20171030-story.html)

-Sempra (the parent company) settles for $700M in damages: [https://uk.reuters.com/article/sempra/update-1-san-diego-uti...](https://uk.reuters.com/article/sempra/update-1-san-diego-utility-to-pay-700-mln-in-fire-claims-idUKN2635565720090627)

-Sempra's earnings and shares down as a result: [https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-sempras-1st-quarte...](https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-sempras-1st-quarter-marred-settlement-weak-earning-2010may04-story.html)

