
Russia presses Apple to install Kremlin-approved apps - n1000
https://www.economist.com/europe/2019/12/18/russia-presses-apple-to-install-kremlin-approved-apps
======
EGreg
Once Apple complies, the next law is:

Now let our apps have special privileges on your phones or you can't sell it
here.

(Emboldened.)

------
Lio
Does anyone know how much Russian iPhone says are worth to Apple?

Also interesting to know would be much the iPhone platform is worth to Russian
app developers if they can no longer buy Apple hardware to test/develop
against?

If both of these figures are small then it could well in Apple's interests to
just abandon sales in Russia.

Since, from the article, this proposed law would only cover sale of new
devices those really motivated would still be able to buy abroad.

~~~
codedokode
iPhones are very expensive (new one costs more that average monthly salary),
but very popular in Russia.

------
scarface74
_If_ Apple trusts the security of its own operating system, it should be able
to sandbox the apps just like any other app.

While the US doesn’t force companies to install apps, it does force companies
to support E911 and the system used for Amber alerts and other mandated
alerts.

~~~
coldtea
> _While the US doesn’t force companies to install apps_

The US doesn't need to. Most companies dominating the field are US based. If
they weren't, the US would turn protectionist and require specific favors from
them to let them operate in the USA pronto...

A lot of the grandstanding "we would never do that" stems from this
dominance...

~~~
nexuist
> If they weren't, the US would turn protectionist and require specific favors
> from them to let them operate in the USA pronto...

This is already the case. They're not called favors, they're called federal
laws.

However, there are no federal laws requiring the installation of software on
almost anything (maybe military applications?) There is no need. The
government can just go through ISPs & carriers & companies for surveillance
purposes. Russia's government can do the same thing.

This move is an attempt to energize the Russian software market and not much
else.

~~~
codedokode
Unlike US court, Russian government or courts cannot order Apple or Google to
disclose or remove information (ok, they can, but Google simply ignores their
lawful requests). So the situation is non-symmetric.

Although I am against this law because probably it is there to allow spying
for Russian citizens and prevent them from using secure messengers like
Telegram or Tox.

------
bricss
IMHO, the proper answer to such government behavior should be - to tell them,
to suck off apple pure out of tetra pak.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
_Do you want to allow “Приложение бэкдор ФСБ” to access your location?_

~~~
UI_at_80x24
Google translate to the rescue!

I think that sums it up too.

~~~
mtmail
Google translate says "FSB backdoor app"

------
azangru
While I personally strongly dislike the law discussed in the article, I find
the title misleading.

Taken at face value, the law, as approved by the Russian parliament [1], is,
ostensibly, designed to improve the experience of the local customers (who,
annoyingly, are depicted as too clueless to know how to install the
applications they want). It is introduced under the rubric of "protecting
customers rights", demands that smartphones, PCs and smart TVs come with pre-
installed local software, and surely, surely, could be spun under a different
narrative: an adorably humanist one, concerned with tailoring to the local
language and culture (which might have been chosen by the left-leaning
commentariat if it were about a small country obsessed with preserving its
national identity), or a cynically economical one, focused on protecting local
jobs.

Again, I am not defending the law — I find it offensive towards the customers
who have to delete all that pre-installed crap. I am just amused by the tone
that the Economist has chosen to present this news.

1 -
[https://sozd.duma.gov.ru/bill/757423-7](https://sozd.duma.gov.ru/bill/757423-7),
in Russian

------
imrelaxed
This very worrying, particularly because Apple recently caved in and marked
Crimea as Russian...

~~~
alehul
Crimea only appears as Russian if you're viewing it from within Russia, which
recognizes Crimea as part of Russia, not Ukraine.

If you're viewing Crimea from Ukraine, it will appear as Ukrainian, because
Ukraine recognizes Crimea to be part of Ukraine.

That seems fair, doesn't it?

~~~
codedokode
That means that American companies like Apple have admitted that Crimea is a
part of Russia, not just an occupied territory of a foreign country? Despite
the fact that there are no international treaties that would confirm
transferring this territory to Russia?

~~~
soneil
There’s an interesting mix here though. As a nerd with a passing interest in
politics, I don’t want to call Crimea lost. But at the same time, there needs
to be a healthy dose of reality - if I’m on the ground, and crossing this
imaginary line is going to mean russian soldiers with guns pointed at me - I
think I’d prefer my map to render that line, imaginary or not.

~~~
Zenbit_UX
Agreed, I'd definitely have to 1-star an app if it led me into a DMZ or
military blockade.

~~~
ulshv
Haha - this is exactly what happened to me when Maps.me app (formerly
OpenStreetsMap) led me to UK military base in Cyprus (it made a route which
skipped border checkpoints to occupied Turkish part of the island)

------
concerned_user
Unpopular opinion.

Putting all the conspiracy theorists aside the intent of the law is actually
to gain what western countries have a new phone that has localized apps that
non-English speakers can use.

For some apps, like twitter, translation of the ui is enough for some others
local apps are just better.

Knowing how laws are being implemented in Russia it is hard to tell what this
will turn out into, most operators already wrote an open letter to the
president to not sign the law, but it was still signed.

So I see it more as an attempt to created isolated marked similar to china one
rather than total surveillance scenario.

~~~
saagarjha
> a new phone that has localized apps that non-English speakers can use

Apple localizes their operating system.

~~~
concerned_user
Most of those apps are still made with USA/Western Europe customers in mind
and their habits so just translating text in the ui will not add a ton of
relevant content in case of a social app.

Google assistant just doesn't work very well outside of USA for example.

------
RustyBucket
The point of law is not to force backdoors but to counter monopolies.

Google devices come with Google maps, search and so on. When people get new
devices, often they will stick to whatever is pre-installed.

Russia is probably on of the few countries that has perfectly capable
alternatives, like Yabdex. So now people will have an option to choose what to
use - Google, Apple or yandex apps.

Obviously owners of the platforms (apple and Google monopolies) are not to
happy to lose control.

That of course does not mean that Russian government won't try to force some
fishy stuff on devices. Ukraine is completely separate and orthogonal issue.

See Matt Stoller's take on the broader issue -
[https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/how-russian-antitrust-
enf...](https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/how-russian-antitrust-enforcers-
defeated)

------
dsypa
>Local digital-rights activists like Artem Kozlyuk are worried, saying that
these apps could “secretly collect information: location, tools and services
being used and so on”.

Technically impossible.

>The apps can be deleted, but only if users know to do that

Like any other app.

>and there are suspicions that they might leave behind backdoors into users’
phones after they are gone.

Technically impossible.

I can't read the rest of the article. What are the apps about?

~~~
kenshi
It's only technically impossible if the system software and/or hardware can't
be compromised/exploited.

If you are just going by the intent and marketing of any platform vendor,
plenty of things are technically impossible. But exploits and flaws in
software and hardware exist, and the resources a nation state can bring to
bear to find and use them are significant.

There is a reason vendors run bug bounty programmes, why the jailbreak scene
is still a thing, and cybercrime in general is booming.

No one vendor has solved computer security.

~~~
dsypa
I know someone would come up with this argument. But Apple and the community
will be looking at those apps closely. Even if they managed to slip an exploit
into them, it wouldn't last long.

