
Ask HN: Verbally abusive employer, what do I do? - throwaway46785
I&#x27;m currently been employed by my employer for shy of 3 years. My employer was great for the first 6 months, but after that my boss turned into a huge pain and became verbally abusive. He often belittles me, calls me stupid, no common sense, etc. in front of the entire staff team, to the point it makes me physically sick to my stomach going to work for him. His boss (CEO) is his father, so trying to resolve this is impossible. I have attempted to raise concerns privately and only been treated worse by my boss.<p>I have been seeking new employment for over a year with no avail, at the point of desperation that I offered to work for half market rate. I&#x27;ve received no offers. The market where I live is bad this year.<p>What are my options? I have a family, I&#x27;m the sole earner, I&#x27;m forced to work 10-12 hours a day, with verbal abuse all day. I cannot merely quit, I won&#x27;t have the money to provide for my family if I do.<p>Location: Canada
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muzani
This is very common where I live. One way out is through freelancing remotely.
In Canada, you should be able to find some good remote jobs from the US.

Don't look on Upwork or freelancing marketplaces. Something like Toptal offers
a good entry barrier and they take care of you as well.

Also I understand it's hard to do good work under those conditions, but you
should try. My entry into freelancing was when I was working with an external
contractor. He saw that I did an extremely good job and offered me some
contract work.

~~~
ldasj
I'm curious, did you notice this toxic behavior in other areas too, or just
IT? To me it seems like IT has a higher percentage of assholes.

~~~
muzani
It's actually far less in IT. A close relative worked in construction. You
think tech has bad harassment issues? Construction had open prostitution at
work, rape jokes targeted towards the female engineers, and some people would
urinate openly.

Anything with undereducated people are also quite toxic. Both the managers and
colleagues often have very low willpower and get emotional over small issues,
starting fights for small things, like not getting them a drink, or touching
their car.

In tech, people are not so replaceable, so most companies have plenty of
financial incentive to treat each other respectfully.

Startups can be a little worse than usual, because the people are younger and
there's more of a "college" climate.

------
Nextgrid
This is a shit situation to be in, but honestly until you have something lined
up I wouldn't recommend doing anything just yet as you don't want to
compromise your only source of income. Document everything but keep quiet and
focus on the other issue which is that you need another job.

> The market where I live is bad this year.

In that case you might need to consider relocation - staying in a market
_that_ bad (no offer in a year of job hunting is crazy) would be a huge
risk/liability anyway - imagine if you lost your next job. As shitty as this
situation is, at least you are given the opportunity to look for a job on your
own terms and not just suddenly shown the door.

Once you're out (and only then) you can look into getting back at them - talk
to a lawyer and give them the documentation.

~~~
remilouf
This. I was in an extreme situation like you were (boss abusive with
_everyone_ in the company, constant threats and sometimes physical abuse).

\- First, see if you can find other employees in the same situation. Being a
group helped us. \- Document _everything_. Commit on git first thing in the
morning, and before leaving. Write down every conversation you had right after
you had them—we tend to forget very quickly. Dump your calendar and emails
regularly. You can find scripts to dump Slack too. If your boss has written
anything abusive them, it is also a good idea to take screenshots. \- I guess
moving is not an option for your family? Otherwise start looking in other
markets. \- Freelancing is a good option otherwise. I know it sucks to do this
on top of your job, but you only to save enough to get yourself out of this.

Once you’re out, and only when you’re out, find a good lawyer. Do not hesitate
to sue. It’s not greed, it’s reparation for the abuse. You deserve it.

Good luck to you.

------
hackermailman
I once had to sue an employer for wrongful dismissal over anonymous social
media posts I didn't even write when I was in my early 20s in Canada and won a
small settlement. Process took about 3 months but it was worth it. My lawyer
told me most companies, even gigantic ones (i sued a large global airline) are
extremely cheap, they have house counsel they use for everything and rarely
seek out specialist lawyers which means that their lawyer(s) will be
absolutely trounced by your employment specialist lawyer during every
settlement meeting. It was amusing watching the highly arrogant Toronto lawyer
that was parachuted in, with no experience in employment law, bungle and
flounder around failing at every turn during settlement conferences with a
judge.

You can refuse overtime in Canada unless you signed some work contract that
says you agree to work overtime, ergo you need a real employment lawyer to go
over your case. A real employment lawyer is somebody attached to an actual
firm specializing in employment law and not the first search results in
google, which if you check their name will also be the 'experts' in injury
law, a bunch of other spam ads. All you need is a half hour call with them and
possibly emailing them your work contract documentation if any exists. Of
course they will tell you to start documenting everything like the rest of the
comments here suggest.

As for planning an escape if your market is bad then recruiters have an even
worse time, so find one and get them to help you. Establish yourself in remote
freelance outfits like TopTal, CleverTech, or even Salesforce who hire all
over Canada. Then ask your employment lawyer what to do, don't just quit maybe
you need to file harassment paperwork first or bait them into firing you by
refusing overtime.

~~~
Salesdude
Geniune question: Assume you sued and won. You get paid an amount of money.
This is most likely leaked to the press or somewhere online. Wouldn't you be
basically avoided by recruiters like a plague because they worry you'd do the
same for your future employer?

~~~
hackermailman
Since I didn't actually do the thing they accused me of it would've been worse
to do nothing, I'd be blacklisted for being known as the guy fired for supreme
idiocy instead of the guy who received a signed apology letter and
compensation clearing me of any involvement. You also get a reference letter
to give to future employers and the company is legally bound to not tell
anybody calling anything besides confirmation of employment. I would assume
you could sue for potential earnings loss if some company is vindictively
leaking your settlement details.

------
DoreenMichele
Maybe try to develop an income via remote work?

Below is a Google doc with over 100 potential options. I have no idea how many
of them are US only.

[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JfNAbUX_lN9K3MCNHO15...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JfNAbUX_lN9K3MCNHO15GJtJ5qpk7H9Cl3xTBwv2FR8/htmlview)

------
borplk
Sorry to hear that.

My suggestion would be to put your energy into finding a new job.

\- Do the minimum at work that you can get away with

\- Spend the rest of time looking for and applying for new jobs

\- Try to fix any problems that prevent you from finding a job

For example if it's a location thing, look for more remote-friendly jobs.

If you are not getting interviews try to debug your resume.

~~~
throwaway46785
Its mainly a location issue, I've been seeking remote jobs, but a lot reject
citing no previous long term remote experience.

~~~
itamarst
You can still get remote jobs if you pitch it right. Basically you need to
emphasize ability to work independently and communication skills.

1\. "here is project I designed and built on my own"

2\. "our team is distributed across two offices, I collaborate with people in
other office"

3\. "I wrote some code for open source project"

4\. "I help customers debug their issues over email/phone/chat"

etc.

------
wesammikhail
The first question I usually ask in situations such as this is: How much do
you have saved up that you can live off of? the game theory will look
different if you have a few $$ to lean on vs 0 dollars saved and kids to feed.

~~~
throwaway46785
I have about $1000 saved, which won't pay the rent ($450 shy of the 1mo rent
payment).

~~~
bendixso
I get the feeling that many elements of your story don't add up. How can you
work 10-12 hours a day and only have $1000 saved up, especially if you're in a
tech-related field? I know kids can be expensive, but they're not that
expensive.

In life, unless you can learn to put away a huge pile of cash, people are just
going to walk all over you. When you are vulnerable, it sends a signal and
they pounce on it. Your boss will stop abusing you the moment he realizes he
can't use it to control you anymore.

Save your money. Pick up new skills. Become less dependent on others. Bike
instead of driving. Cook all of your own meals. Learn about investing. Get out
of debt. Maintain your own vehicles. Plant a garden.

Take literally any step to make yourself more independent and your boss will
lose power.

~~~
CloudNetworking
> I get the feeling that many elements of your story don't add up. How can you
> work 10-12 hours a day and only have $1000 saved up, especially if you're in
> a tech-related field? I know kids can be expensive, but they're not that
> expensive.

Welcome to the real world my friend. Most people working in IT earn way less
than you think. Way, way less. It's scary outside the bubble.

------
EnderMB
Where there's smoke, there's usually fire. Does this happen to anyone else on
the team? If I were you, I'd (informally) ask others if this is a problem for
them, and if it is maybe consider formally putting your foot down to the CEO.

If you feel there is any kind of legal route you can go down, I'd consider
talking to a lawyer, in case there is anything that can be done. I'd also ask
about the implications of being a whistleblower. One possible route could be
to a local newspaper, ensuring that the entire town/city is aware that the
company bullies its employees.

Failing all of this, if it's just someone being a bully, fight back. Challenge
him on anything offensive he says, and respond back. Also, start cutting your
hours back to the hours you're supposed to be working. Tell the boss that any
failings in your work is down to him being a shitty manager, and that if he
wants anything extra from you his boss either needs to put him on training, or
to sack him and get someone that knows what they're doing.

------
richardknop
If you only have $1000 and your rent alone is $1450, then obviously you are in
a very bad spot.

Try to save more money, because it's very difficult to change jobs if you
can't even cover 3-6 months of expenses from your savings. Consider moving to
cheaper apartment. If your wife is able to work, even part time, you should
ask her to.

Keep doing the minimum required work to get you through your day job and spend
all the time looking for new job. Go to tech conferences to try to network
with other tech people in your area.

Try rewriting your CV. Do not offer to work for half your rate! That is very
desperate and from the point of game theory will make you even less likely to
find a job. Ask for at least your current salary or little bit more during
interviews.

------
0942v8653
If you are working 10-12 hours a day, expand your job search to locations
which involve a 1-2 hour commute each way. (Assumption: you can find something
that only involves 8 hours of work per day.) It will suck, but it will still
be better than your current situation. You may be able to WFH some or move
house sometime later.

------
jason_slack
This happened to me with a boss I had back in 1999. The company was family
owned (at the top layers). I tried talking to them, they said they would
handle it. It didn't stop.

We didn't have cell phones back then that could record audio easily so I
bought a micro-cassette recorder, started wearing hoodies and turned it on
before entering his office (he never did it in front of others). This way I
could toss it in the front pocket. I carried a notebook in front of me so he
didn't see it. I got him on tape a few times being unprofessional. With this
the owners had no choice but to deal with the situation and as an apology the
"boss" was removed but forced to say why and apologize at a company wide
meeting and my tapes were also played at that meeting.

I imagine now-a-days, this may not work but phones can record easily now.

Edit: re-arrange for better clarity.

~~~
Spoom
Make sure if you do this that your state / province has one party recording
laws. Some states only allow recording if all parties to the conversation have
consented.

~~~
jason_slack
This is good advice. Thank you for mentioning it. I didn't care :-)

------
itamarst
Asking half market rate is signaling desperation, so it's likely to make you
_less_ likely to get a job.

~~~
imhoguy
Exactly this. Keep some respect for yourself and seek professional employment
advice. Your current work situation may expose some desperation in your market
pitch.

------
usgroup
Sorry to hear about that. Here are some tips:

1\. Bullies will keep punching you in the face until you fight back. You don’t
have to win: just fight back.

2\. You’re more likely to lose your job if you’re not respected and you’re
less respected if you don’t fight back.

3\. Cutting your rates won’t help you find a job: it just makes you entirely
undesirable to the market segment you belong in.

If you can, consider this an opportunity to grow as a person and challenge
your assumptions about interpersonal relationships. I don’t know you or your
situation, so I offer this as just honest advise from what I’m reading.

------
samfisher83
Maybe you can do unemployment:

[https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/ei/ei-regular-
ben...](https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/ei/ei-regular-
benefit/eligibility.html)

It says the following:

You may not be entitled for benefits:

if you voluntarily left your job without just cause

Just document when your boss berates you and then use that as cause with the
Unemployment office. That will give you more time to look for a job. Maybe you
can contact them and explain your case.

------
ldasj
Are you actually making mistakes or does he single you out for no reason? If
he is unhappy with your performance, you can ask for reassignment to something
you think you would be good at.

If he is doing it with no real reason, he probably just wants you gone.

------
mwerty
This might help: [https://blg.com/en/News-And-
Publications/Publication_4539](https://blg.com/en/News-And-
Publications/Publication_4539)

------
JSeymourATL
Have you explored Remote Freelance work? >
[https://www.toptal.com/](https://www.toptal.com/)

------
ksaj
Hey fellow Canuck. Look up the term "constructive dismissal" and you might
find it applies to your situation in a most favourable way.

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captainredbeard
Have you considered moving?

