
Reasons not to buy from Amazon - denzil_correa
http://stallman.org/amazon.html
======
simonsarris
Most of these are problems with any large company, not Amazon _per se._

Yes, companies want to kill competition by any means and do all sorts of bad-
for-the-consumer and bad-for-workers things. We didn't just wake up yesterday
into the industrial era. That's all of capitalism. Amazon isn't special, just
high-profile.

> if you rent a server from Amazon, you have no rights.

Amazon isn't in the business of granting rights.

If you don't like any of the things included in Stallman's list, don't expect
change to come from Amazon or some boycott thereof. The change should come
from _us_ by way of better governance.

I feel like Stallman missed a good time to make a positive point on why we
need better governance and perhaps regulation to reign in the much uglier
parts of corporations/capitalism/behavior that we might as a society not like.
He could have been inspiring and spoken to a much wider audience than the
paranoia crowd.

Instead he wanted to make a negative piece about Amazon. It made the top of
HN, where we'll talk aboutit for 15 hours, and then nobody else will listen.

More generally I think its safe to say that people _will not_ listen to a
boycott that inconveniences them. They _might_ listen to a positive message on
the reasons we should support and enact laws upholding digital freedoms,
worker rights, and things to stop anti-competitive practices.

There are a lot of digital freedom causes worth championing, but I'm always
disappointed by Stallman. It's easy to hate. We need more _positive_ people
that can frame causes like this more effectively.

~~~
chimeracoder
> don't expect change to come from Amazon or some boycott thereof. The change
> should come from us by way of better governance.

Devil's advocate: Rights are inherent, and an external authority (government,
etc.) cannot by definition grant them; it can only restrict them (though
whether it _should_ is separate).

It's a subtle point, but I bring this up because it's more in line with the
way Stallman thinks, so to miss that point (for any other readers) is to
misunderstand Stallman.

~~~
overcyn
I don't get your point, can external authorities not _protect_ your rights?
What is the course of action that you are getting at?

~~~
chimeracoder
To be honest, I'm having a hard time way to express this concisely enough for
an HN comment, but the gist is that, while the government _can_ protect
rights, rights must exist even if no single authority is responsible for
protecting them. Otherwise, they are privileges.

This isn't quite the same thing, but look up the arguments for why Internet
access is not a human right[1]. I can't find the article I'm thinking of that
explains it well, but the idea is that, if someone lacks Internet access on a
desert island, it's not necessarily because someone is actively infringing on
their right. If someone is a slave to another, someone _is_ actively
infringing on their human rights under Article 4 of the UDHR.

[1] Contrast 'human right' with 'civil right' and you'll see why the concept
of 'rights' is so complex.

------
aeurielesn
> Amazon publishes ebooks designed to attack your freedom (PDF[1] or html[2]).

This is real. There is something wrong with the way Amazon deals with ebooks,
and it is sad to see people backing it up.

\---

[1]: <http://stallman.org/articles/ebooks.pdf>

[2]: <http://gnu.org/philosophy/the-danger-of-ebooks.html>

~~~
sseveran
Well then someone should make the open Kindle. I love my kindle and haven't
bought a dead tree book since I got it.

~~~
jrockway
The problem is not the hardware: the hardware will read Free books just fine.
The problem is that Amazon wants to sell you books that will only work on
their platform, since those books subsidize their hardware. (Oddly, not much
stops you from buying books from other stores, except that those stores all
use different DRM. It's like heard immunity or something.)

Publishers are also hesitant to offer their books in DRM-free format because
book piracy would otherwise be rampant. (The fact that there's a torrent for
every Kindle book ever just goes to show you how effective DRM is. Once again,
it's another DRM scheme that only hurts legitimate users and publishers, but
the lawyers tell everyone otherwise and so everyone is happy. It would be
funny if it weren't so sad.)

There are some publishers that just offer ebooks as PDFs that you download
from their website. My book is like that (though it has a PDF password that
your reader can just ignore), and some other books I've bought are like that.
"Programming in Scala" is just a pure PDF download after you give them your
money. It's a nice system and the rest of the industry will catch on soon. For
now, publishers seem to enjoy working with middlemen that take a 30% cut of
the author's revenue, but people are getting tired of the middlemen and with
that, DRM will slowly fade away and open ebook platforms will be the norm.
Just give it ten years.

~~~
antidoh
I by DRM-free books from O'Reilly. I wonder if they're profitable, or if
O'Reilly does it for the good of mankind, or to make some other point. Or
maybe they're just profitable.

Whatever, I have no reluctance at all to buy an O'Reilly ebook. DRM books make
me nervous. What happens to them when I die? The "Rights" in DRM refer to the
sellers or publishers rights, not mine.

~~~
jrockway
I'm sure they're profitable. People were pirating O'Reilly books long before
"ebook" was even a word. Didn't stop the authors from being reasonably
compensated.

------
raverbashing
Says the man who charges to have his photograph taken by fans

Independent bookstores are nice, but they fail to account for the long tail,
that's where Amazon shines.

And for the "common books" the big chains do an ok job. E.g. Harry Potter

(Still, physical B&N stores seem to be going away, Borders is history already)

~~~
fletchowns
_Says the man who charges to have his photograph taken by fans_

What does that have to do with any of the things he mentioned in the post?

~~~
raverbashing
<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrisy>

Basically, it's ok for him to charge for his right of image, it's ok for the
GPL to place limits on IP, but it's not ok for others to charge for other
rights like IP or limit the ways their IP can be used (Right of image is not
IP, it's a Personality right, still - and I agree with the GPL)

~~~
rhizome
So you'd criticize him for speaking against _any_ limits?

------
jspthrowaway
The split personality in the HN community is interesting.

On one hand, you have things like "never let the perfect be the enemy of the
good; better to have a product that works than to get everything right".

On the other, you have things like "Amazon puts DRM on their ebooks and
terminated Wikileaks. Boycott _everything_ they do."

Amazon is innovative enough and has benefited my life enough that I'm willing
to sacrifice some freedoms for that convenience. Richard Stallman, however,
cannot be happy if you make that decision on your own. Eventually, you have to
ask yourself if you want to spend your life obeying what an influential person
tells you to do (and sacrifice conveniences to hold the world to a higher
standard which will never be realized), or realize that ships sail and you'd
rather be on the ship than yelling at it with clenched fist from the harbor.

~~~
Codhisattva
I'm sure there's a helluva lot more opinions than those two among the readers
of Hacker News. The best communities are diverse.

------
thewordis
Reasons to buy from Amazon:

* Cheap

* Consistent

* Fast shipping

* Good product availability

* Good return policies

* Vendor and item ratings

~~~
mcantelon
Yes, when it's a matter of convenience vs ethical soundness convenience will
win every time.

~~~
msg
Convenience is an ethical soundness, it just isn't usually taken that way.

Shifting commerce to digital and personal, just-in-time shipping, and
customer-centric are good. Ugly business practices, creepy data mining, and
DRM are bad. If you want to wave your hand at "conveniences", why wouldn't I
wave my hand at "philosophical quibbles"?

Amazon is a mixed bag. For me, it's more good than bad. Putting your blinders
on to the good for the sake of argument is not convincing.

~~~
mcantelon
I think I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. Maybe it's that small
wins for large number of individuals outweighs large losses for small numbers
of individual?

~~~
msg
The OP pointed out a number of good things about Amazon. I took you to imply
that these reasons are sellouts, and ethical issues are on a different plane
than commercial considerations.

My take on this is that it's early in the conversation to downplay these wins
as small (after all, why do people die of starvation today? Not shortages or
money: _distribution_ , which is a keystone problem for Amazon).

I also hope we will think of improving commerce as a moral issue. Assuming
that it boils down to worthless materialism or Mammon is not a fair picture.

~~~
mcantelon
You're right in that it's not fair to write off the improvements to commerce.
These will have a large, unforeseeable impact. That being said, from a North
American perspective it seems that commerce is steadily improving while
economic equality and working conditions are worsening. We're at the point in
society where technology may have permanently made large swathes of people
essentially redundant.

------
cvanderlinden
I literally just bought a book of Amazon three minutes ago. I couldn't find it
anywhere else. A local author and the book was only available in hardcover. I
guess I'm just a sucker for convenience.

------
maxharris
What about reasons not to listen to Stallman? There are other ethical views
than just his.

In addition to being practical, it's morally good for individual programmers
to work on commercial products solely for their own long-term gain, and that
doing so doesn't come at the expense of others. Others are free to buy those
products if they wish. The fact that so many people choose to do so is
evidence of the tremendous value that paid developers and companies provide.

------
mark_l_watson
A complex subject. Stallman makes valid points, we do need fair laws that keep
corporations from bad behavior while otherwise staying out of their way to do
business.

I vote with my wallet at two extremes. Locally, I enjoy spending money at the
small businesses in my neighborhood that I really hope stay in business and
make a fair profit. At the other end of the business-size spectrum, I love the
convenience of Amazon for ordering physical goods and having them delivered to
my home in the mountains.

I understand the negative aspects of DRM but I really like the Kindle
platform. It is true that I may not always have access in the distant future
to what I have bought, but in most cases I won't want a lot of what I buy to
read in 10 years (and it will probably be available for as long as I live
anyway). I pay a lot less (usually) for Kindle format books and they are
available on all of my devices, with automatic syncing to furthest location
read. Also, my study/home office is already filled to capacity with
bookshelves - now I just buy really special books (on Go, Chess, Art books,
some classic computer science, etc.) as physical books and enjoy otherwise
saving the space on my bookshelves.

------
jrockway
Seems unfair for Stallman to criticize the fact that they stopped funding ALEC
after many people asked them too. It's kind of like taking hostages, having
all your demands met, and then killing all the hostages anyway. Why will
Amazon change if we criticize them for doing something we asked them to do?

------
bobsy
Interesting article. When you make an alternative to Amazon which has a
similar selection and shipping time I will consider it.

I do not have a local book shop. My supermarket which is strangling farmers,
killing off grocers, butchers, video game shops etc only have the best sellers
list.

I have yet to find an alternative which is consistently cheap and delivers
next day or the day after with free shipping..

To your points.

> Amazon publishes ebooks designed to attack your freedom

This is no different from music. I could choose to buy a physical book but
sometimes I feel that my kindle could get it faster and I could save space in
my house which already is littered with large books.

> Amazon's on-line music "sales" have some of the same problems as the ebooks

This is the same as a number of other music retailers. If I want to avoid this
I will get a DVD. Just because Amazon offers you a convenient option doesn't
mean you have to take it. I would rather save space in my house and save the
environment by purchasing digital music than buy a CD which will be scanned
onto my computer once then left on a shelf.

> Amazon's shipping in the US is done in a sweatshop

Oh well.. this is something state officials should look into. I have seen the
UK distribution center a number of times on the news and it looks alright.

> Amazon cut off service to Wikileaks

Oh well.. it is Amazon's service. Wikileaks can use another. I use a service
and I cut people off fairly often due to the content they post. They broke my
terms -> They go. The end. They can build their own software. Or in Wikileaks
case.. find another host / make their own.

> Amazon squeezes small publishers.

Amazon looks to give the best deal possible to the customer. Sometimes people
get trodden on. If Amazon won't do you an agreeable deal go elsewhere. Make an
organization with similar companies and reject any deals which you cannot
agree to. Throw your weight behind a different ebook reader.

> Amazon doesn't just compete with independent book stores, it arrogantly
> seeks to destroy them.

Please.. there are app's like this which compare prices all over the place.
Again. Amazon looks to give the best deal possible to the customer. When I buy
from a bookshop I know I am paying more. That is fine because I can see the
book, touch the book and take it home then and there. Most people know this.

Sometimes a local book store cannot sell a book even remotely competitively.
An app which told me this would be nice. I don't mind paying a few pounds more
in a store. When it is £5-10 there is a problem with the shop.

> Amazon appears to treat self-published authors well, but it can unilaterally
> cut the price of their books. And when it does, the authors are the ones who
> lose.

It is an authors choice whether they use the publishing platform or not. I
wouldn't after hearing how Amazon auto-discounted an authors book and the
author got screwed.

> Amazon censored an ebook that exposed how ebook bestseller lists can be
> manipulated (and therefore are meaningless).

Is this so unexpected? Guy tries to publish book on Amazon about how to game
the Amazon review and ranking system...

> Amazon was a member of ALEC.

Oh well.

Amazon isn't a saint. They are responsible for putting a number of small
businesses out of business. They damage the high street. However.. look at any
major superstore. Its just the evolution of business. I will not be boycotting
Amazon any time soon.

~~~
encoderer
We live in a world of either severe inconvenience or reluctant acceptance of
the mega-corp.

But I don't understand apologists and defenders like yourself.

------
rickdale
The only legitimate reason I can think of to not order off of Amazon is
because sometimes you end up paying for express shipping when they would have
got the item out to you in the same amount of time anyway.

------
AlexeiSadeski
I don't find a single one of these "reasons" even remotely compelling as cause
not to do business with Amazon. Were I to run Amazon tomorrow, I would change
not one of these policies.

------
robertp
UPS and robots do shipping now. That article he cited is old.

~~~
adrr
That could be a negative since you removed a bunch of jobs. Also working in
100 degree warehouse isn't that bad, i spent many summers working on a farm in
a lot worse conditions(heat, sun and ankle deep in pig manure). Using the same
logic we should stop eating.

~~~
Firehed
I don't see how jobs for the sake of jobs is of real benefit to society. Just
as programmers tend to automate away humans with small shells scripts (costs
go down, reliability increases), a robot automating away inventory picking is
a good thing (lower cost, vastly decreased chance of injuries, possibility of
"dark" warehouses, 24-hour operation, etc)

Maybe I'm being very 1% here (despite not being even remotely near that income
bracket), but I'd be perfectly happy to see machines replace humans in nearly
all unskilled labor situations. If Amazon is ahead of the curve here, good for
them - it's one of the reasons I own [a tiny amount of] AMZN stock. Getting
people doing something that requires thinking because we've eliminated
mindless work is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. That won't require
everyone in the world have a four-year formal education; there are plenty of
opportunities that don't require years of specialized training where you're
not likely to be replaced by a couple of servos or a few lines of bash.

------
SeppoErviala
The number 1 reason is the practice of letting you click all the way to "ship
to address" screen before telling you that they cannot ship the selected item
to your location.

This is extremely frustrating! Why are they advertising products they are not
willing to sell? (This problem is rampant in Finland, probably not applicable
to USA)

------
kmfrk
A lot of people are bringing up the consumer issues related to using Amazon.
But also consider the implications for _publishers_.

------
staunch
...and they charge sales tax now :-(

~~~
teraflop
Technically, your state government charges sales tax. Amazon just helps them
enforce it, instead of trusting that you'll be honest and pay it yourself.

------
listic
What is Amazon's current stance on ebook DRM? Did they abandon it yet?

------
bartv331
But it's cheaper!!! ;-)

This is a free market, Amazon wins, the other loses. End of story. Just
ordered another book ON AMAZON. Free shipping, no sales tax!!

~~~
jlgreco
Gentle reminder: unless your state doesn't have sales tax, you probably still
have to pay use tax.

------
iterative
A lot of Stallman's points are nonsense, but the one about ALEC is
particularly stupid and misinformed. ALEC, which is basically a think tank,
has been the subject of a campaign of demonization by the totalitarian left,
which has unfortunately been very effective in getting some of their
contributors to cut off funding. If you don't like ALEC's solutions to
problems, then by all means you should start your own damn foundation and
promote out your own set of "model bills" and position papers, instead of
trying silence ALEC's.

