
Hundreds of academics at top UK universities accused of bullying - pseudolus
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/sep/28/academics-uk-universities-accused-bullying-students-colleagues
======
colllectorof
At this point it's pretty much impossible to read such articles and figure out
whether there is an actual institutional problem.

You know that The Guardian will present anything they can as an issue that
requires institutional change. That's just what they do these say. If you're
willing to engage in willful confirmation bias, you can take any large
institution and find enough disgruntled people to to build a "case".

I see nothing in this article about the authors trying to disprove their own
hypothesis.

 _" The Guardian sent freedom of information requests to 135 universities.
Responses revealed a total of 294 complaints against academics at 55
institutions. A further 30 universities reported 337 complaints against all
staff – academic and non-academic. Across 105 universities, at least 184 staff
have been disciplined and 32 dismissed for bullying since 2013."_

Compared to the corporate world, that sounds incredibly low, actually.

Of course, these days any official statistic with inconveniently "good"
numbers can be dismissed on the grounds that there are systematic attempts to
cover things up and institutional pressure not to report incidents. But that
in itself is often a form of confirmation bias.

~~~
throwaway0255
> At this point it's pretty much impossible to read such articles and figure
> out whether there is an actual institutional problem.

I have a similar feeling about all articles from all sources (that I’m aware
of) in journalism.

Every time an article interests me enough to dig deeper into the subject, I
find the original article was inaccurate and biased, and frequently
misrepresents small but significant details to fit a narrative in a way that
can’t have been a mistake.

The way I consume news these days isn’t the greatest, but it’s the best I can
do: I only read headlines. If a claim in the headline would cause the source
major legal issues if untrue, I mostly trust that the event occurred, but not
necessarily how they say it did.

I ignore all other claims in headlines, and I don’t read the body of the
article, because it’s usually just a thinly-veiled opinion piece by a non-
expert, or worse, the dramatic prose of a journalist who seems to think their
writing is the story.

If there’s an event in a headline that seems to have actually happened, and
it’s relevant to my interests, I research it independently.

~~~
eksemplar
Have you considered paying for news? If they are free, then you’re the product
being sold.

Aside from that, your approach makes little sense. You read headlines and
comments, but headlines are notoriously bad, especially on free news, and
comments are a jungle. I mean, anyone could tell you anything and not ever be
held accountable, unlike actual media, but you’d rather spend time on anarchy,
uninformed opinions and outright lies?

Furthermore looking at this particular article, even if we say the numbers are
lower than they are in the private sector, does that mean there isn’t a
problem? We’re talking about people in power who are bullying their juniors
who are trying to do research that may alter human history. Even if the
numbers are lower than somewhere else, that’s still not good.

~~~
kiriakasis
Consider a city where the murder rate is half of the country wide one, it
would be a little unusual to claim it has a institutionalized murder problem
based on those numbers.

Maybe it has one (e.g. particularly bad neighborhoods) but it would be a weird
conclusion from just the number

(I didn't read the article, did not feel that was relevant to this specific
response)

------
JohnnyGan
I was once told a story by a professor at my undergrad about a new sessional
instructor that just arrived at the school. Apparently a couple of years
before, this sessional instructor was one of the top PHD students the country.
He was going to grad school at one of the most prestigious universities, and
his supervisors were the leading authors in their field. He published
regularly since undergrad, and was teaching a couple of classes. One day, he
found out that his supervisors were faking their results. These results were
crucial to a couple massive papers for his supervisors. So he blew the whistle
on his supervisors, and the papers got redacted. There were a couple of
disciplinary measures for his supervisors, but within a few months they were
back at work. This sessional instructor, however, was now blacklisted in his
field. His advisors were editors for the top journals, and they had many
connections to other researchers. I don't think he ever managed to finish his
PHD, but they hired him as a sessional instructor for a couple classes at my
school anyway. I think he now sells cars on the side to pay his bills.

~~~
rleigh
I know an ex-postdoc who's promising career was cut short by also identifying
and exposing fraud. I suspect it's more common than we think, and it's
thoroughly wrong that being honest and professional can ruin your career in a
moment. If you find all your research was based on fabricated data, what
choice do you have? Expose it, or knowingly continue the fraud and be equally
culpable. You're ruined either way.

The deeper problem is the environment which drives people to commit fraud in
the first place. These whistleblowers are victims of that.

As someone who left after my PhD due to not having a good publication record,
I've seen the nature of the pressure to suceed at all costs to advance in your
career. It's brutal. I doubt most start out with bad intentions, but fraud is
the ticket to success for a significant minority.

------
kartan
> “Some students were driven to attempt suicide as a result, others broke down
> and simply vanished from science.”

It is hard to evaluate how much talent and how much suffering bullying causes.
In every company I have been there had been some level of bullying. The result
usually is that options were not discussed, people left or get depressed, long
non-paid hours produced no real results as work was done in the wrong
projects, etc... Bullying in school or politics has even worst consequences.

There is a lot of untapped potential in human society. Bullying has a high
toll on society.

------
noobermin
Reading that article conjured up some bad memories. I once as a grad student
tried out for a big name scientist working at the LHC. The professor was harsh
and abrasive, and while he called out bullshit, which was good and great, he
also was extremely harsh and toxic in his criticism. I once attending a group
meeting where everyone was walking on eggshells to avoid pissing him off. I
remember as one of the more senior group members talking faster and faster as
the professor tried to ask her whether she had finished some analysis. At that
point I decided to leave and do something else, which ended up being the right
decision both personally and scientifically (although the prof got promoted,
their specific SUSY search ended up being unfruitful, and of course, the LHC
didn't find evidence of SUSY).

Especially given the LHC's current negative results for physics beyond SM, is
it not surprising few particle physicists are willing to confront the issues
regarding SUSY's negative results? How many other leading scientists at CERN
are like that and intimidate anyone who would dare to question them?

I guess this post did turn into a sort of a dig at CERN, but I think a more
broader point is not only do these toxic people make everyone miserable, but
they hamper science too when the bosses are abrasive AND end up being wrong.
So, the whole argument of "abrasive => calls out BS => makes them effective
managers" like that which was in the discussion about Linus is undermined.

------
timdellinger
Being a PhD student is basically working 50-60 hours a week for low pay, for a
boss who pretty much has absolute power over you.

I've seen it all - scientific misconduct of every kind imaginable, professors
impregnating postdocs, professors who regularly make their grad students cry,
professors who neglect their teaching, etc. There are no checks and balances.
The system often creates monsters.

------
DanielleMolloy
There were three recent scandals at MPIs a few weeks to months back, the most
recent one being: [http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/08/she-s-world-s-top-
emp...](http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/08/she-s-world-s-top-empathy-
researcher-colleagues-say-she-bullied-and-intimidated-them)

I'm glad that this new Guardian article highlights that it is a structural
problem. When reading up on the MPI cases it seemed as if it was a problem of
few labs only. Due to the power imbalance, as a to-be-PhD student you are
strongly advised to experience several labs before making a decision where to
go. Don't only look at metrics such as reputation. It is incredibly hard to
find a good PhD advisor, and intuition trained by good and bad experiences
does help.

Similarly bad are people in those labs who don't recognize the behaviour as
such because they either have never experienced a non-dysfunctional lab or see
benefit in licking upwards (they may hope they can be in the intimidating
position one time). Every party enabling this seems to confuse abusiveness
with strength and assertiveness. Is it Stockholm syndrome?

The supervisor's perspective is that grant pressure can be very stressful. But
as soon as multiple people agree to the point that they file formal complaints
the problem can't be the PhD student anymore.

I have still proportionally seen more functional than dysfunctional labs in
science though, great labs do exist. I would expect that the problem is much
worse in industry than in academia.

~~~
xioxox
It should be noted that MPIs are extremely hierarchical organisations, where
basically everything is run by directors who have a lot of freedom. When a
director retires, the whole institute has to be reshaped.

~~~
vymague
How is it different from other German universities and institutes?

~~~
rotskoff
The MPIs are set up as director-driven research organizations. There is one
person, typically a very prominent scientist, that oversees a group of junior
faculty (who I believe have only fixed term positions---i.e., no possibility
of tenure). Unlike most university settings, where each faculty member
controls their research program independently, the Max Planck Institutes add
another level to the hierarchy.

------
trukterious
The twist is the 'crybully' \-- someone who bullies others and claims
victimhood when confronted. In this way an accusation or counter-accusation of
bullying can itself be a form of bullying.

~~~
colllectorof
The term "bully" is not helpful in the first place. It's too vague. It used to
refer to kids who beat up other kids in school. That's a specific behavior.
Modern usage had deteriorated into meaninglessness. It's kinds of ridiculous
that the terms is used to refer to adults.

But what you said is essentially valid, except I would state it in even
broader terms. Accusations of bullying became an effective way to launch a
social attack, either proactively or in retaliation.

This is why you can't solve this by simply instituting punitive rules and
committees that "fight bullying". Beyond certain very basic level (you get
fired if you punch someone at work, clear cut case) they will get mercilessly
abused.

What you really need is to increase autonomy of all participants of the system
so people can act in response. No one should be completely in thrall to their
boss or adviser. At the very lease people should be able to leave without
being harasses and sabotaged at their destination.

~~~
scott_s
> The term "bully" is not helpful in the first place. It's too vague. It used
> to refer to kids who beat up other kids in school. That's a specific
> behavior. Modern usage had deteriorated into meaninglessness. It's kinds of
> ridiculous that the terms is used to refer to adults.

A cursory look at the Wikipedia etymology contradicts the notion that it was
ever limited to children, or that the current usage is significantly broader
than it has been in the past.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying#Etymology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying#Etymology)

------
rotskoff
One peculiarity of the academic system (true to some extent in start-ups) is
that people transition from researchers to managers without any real training
or evaluation of their proclivity for management. While you may be a
spectacular researcher, that does not mean that you have the disposition,
skill, or compassion to be an effective leader. Of course, some are naturals
and many others get ample experience in labs where there's a hierarchical
structure. Still, the utter lack of evaluation and reflection on group
dynamics, productivity, etc., strikes me as a real weakness for the way that
we currently organize academic research.

~~~
Fomite
It often frustrates me that this is true at universities that _have business
schools_.

I can take an 8-week summer course on polishing my NSF CAREER proposal - I'd
_kill_ to be able to do the same for basic management skills (including
hiring).

------
DrNuke
My time in the UK as a postgrad EU foreigner ten years ago was ok and I never
witnessed anything shady. The system was built to avoid any sort of public
confrontation, this being the norm in the UK: just mind your own business,
refer to your direct supervisor, be transparent and you will be fine.

------
l00sed
I feel this way at Harvard too... Professors seem only to care about their
professional goals and esteem and I will often feel dismissed when I'm not
directly serving those goals. I think it's only natural, but I would hope that
more awareness about the issue might serve to change the culture.

------
sjg007
I think it is endemic across academia.

------
ninja10
Career sabotage, IP theft?! That's terrible. If it was a regular job it may be
easy to leave or find another one, but doing a degree, especially a PhD, is a
serious commitment and a lifestyle change. Outside of this, the bullying
behavior is common enough across everywhere ... put a person with serious ego
and control issues in a power position and they will end up a tyrant.

~~~
posterboy
The article doesn't talk about IP theft at all. It doesn't even imply taking
advantage by superiors. It doesn't explore motives for the abuse at all.

~~~
colllectorof
It does:

 _' Another PhD student spoke of “abuse of power” by their adviser, which
included “career sabotage, IP [intellectual property] theft and more general
bullying such as belittling comments, often in front of or in response to
senior academics”.'_

------
quickben
Similar abuses are happening here in Canada too.

They really have to forbid profs names to appear on student papers. It would
remove a lot of the incentive.

~~~
majos
What? The goal of a PhD is to train somebody to be a researcher and
collaborator. The best way to do this is to collaborate with them on research.
Collaborators deserve authorship.

I understand that many labs are hierarchical with ideas solely handed down
from top to bottom, but _removing_ advisor authorship is a big step.

~~~
quickben
And thus, we are in the present conundrum:

Some profs are decent human beings, and the system runs. Some profs are
sociopaths, and the system gets abused.

Other fields got their rules in place because of above. It is not fair to the
profs that are decent human beings, but, ignoring the second point, makes it
unfair to a lot more students that go through it.

------
ourmandave
Apropos to nothing, the headline reminded me of _Monty Python 's Meaning of
Life_ rugby match between the students and the masters.

------
coldtea
Aside from the legitimate cases, there's a lot of trash complaints that you
get when you lower the bar for accusations...

Every person with a pet grievance, no matter how BS it is, will come out of
the woodwork...

Especially when everyone has been raised all emotionally, told they were
little geniuses and would achieve everything "they wanted to", and was
promised to be the King/Queen of the World just for showing up...

~~~
_red
This situation is exasperated by the "everyone deserves to go to university"
concept.

Taking the sub-105 IQ set and putting them situations where they are not
capable of competing winds up creating unhappiness all around. No doubt some
of that dynamic fosters a bullying mindset in professors.

~~~
antt
I find it's the over 105 IQ set that's the problem. Especially when they find
out IQ has nothing to do with success.

------
gaius
_HR managers appearing more concerned about avoiding negative publicity than
protecting staff_

But this is literally the job of the HR department. That is why Workers need
guilds or unions as a counterweight.

------
malvosenior
This article doesn’t do a good job defining bullying, but the examples they
give sound normal to mild compared to the private sector. “Extreme pressure to
produce results” sounds more like typical (bad) management than bullying.

~~~
rossdavidh
"At another internationally renowned laboratory, the pressure was reportedly
so extreme people were driven to falsify data rather than incur the wrath of
the director."

One difference between private sector (typically) and academia is that if you
fake your results in the private sector, it will come out when the product
ships and is no good. As we have seen with the reproducibility crisis in many
fields of science, the feedback loop is much slower in academia. "Extreme
pressure to produce results" is a very imprecise statement, but one issue I
worry about is the primary investigator wanting to get someone else to fake
his data for him, so he has plausible deniability if it should come to light.

I agree the article is rather imprecise, but I think there is a real problem.

~~~
watwut
> One difference between private sector (typically) and academia is that if
> you fake your results in the private sector, it will come out when the
> product ships and is no good.

I dont really think so. Pretty often, at that point no one remembers or care
who was responsible for what and someone else will be pressured to spend
nights fixing your mistakes.

------
k__
Professors often told me my choice of programming language (JS) or database
(MySQL) wasn't real technology but only toys.

Somehow I expected them to be more reflected...

~~~
KirinDave
I'm fairly certain offhand comments like this are not quite at the magnitude
the article is complaining about.

JS distaste is widespread in the industry, as well.

------
posterboy
The miscarriage story is really ambivalent. It supposes two extremely
contrasting opinions without offering a solution.

So far, it's a case of miscommunication. To blame only the students and
subordinate workers for lack of understanding would be one-sided. But the
article doesn't offer a nice explanation nor a solution to the exemplary
problem. I wouldn't expect either that pregnancy at the work place was a good
idea. I am actually rather opposed to it in general, and for more free time
for mothers.

By the way: One has to wonder whether the situation was any different at the
newspaper producing this article.

