
Ask HN: How do you fire a “B Player?” - throw-it-away24
I&#x27;ve been struggling with this all week.<p>Long story short, we have someone on the team who is just OK. Not terrible, there&#x27;s nothing specific I can point to that I can say, &quot;This is awful,&quot; but the work they produce is just mediocre.<p>To be clear: They&#x27;re a designer, and they&#x27;re always asking me for specific critiques, which I try to give, but that can&#x27;t be my job. It&#x27;s pretty clear that it&#x27;s just not good enough.<p>I know other designers we could hire who (I&#x27;m pretty sure) we could pay a lot less, would do a better job, and would need less hand-holding.<p>I&#x27;ve had to fire people before when it was not a good fir or they were obviously not skilled or talented enough, but this one is just... meh. It&#x27;s not like he&#x27;s a complete degenerate, but I think we need someone fantastic to get where we need to go.<p>This is someone I&#x27;ve known for a long time and I consider a friend, but I can&#x27;t let the rest of the team&#x2F;company suffer because I really like this guy personally.<p>How do you have that conversation?
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sheepmullet
> which I try to give, but that can't be my job

How many hours per week are you spending helping him? And how long have you
been helping him?

It's pretty much a given to have to provide significant training and guidance
if you want A player performance but don't want to pay for an A player.

> we could pay a lot less

Based on what evidence?

> would do a better job

Again, based on what evidence?

> but I think we need someone fantastic to get where we need to go.

And you expect to be able to just click your fingers and hire somebody
fantastic for a much lower pay?

Face it: Your company stuffed up and hired a decent performer when you wanted
a top performer. The correct thing to do is offer a decent severance package
(at least 3 months pay if he has been with you for more than a few weeks),
give him a great reference, and allow him to represent himself as still
employed while he looks for another job.

~~~
throw-it-away24
> How many hours per week are you spending helping him? And how long have you
> been helping him?

Probably 1/4 to 1/2 of my working day every day. We're a small company, ~7
ppl, I'm the CEO. I'm not a great designer, but some of the stuff he/she sends
back is just amateurish. It ends up mostly-amateurish-but-shippable if I spend
forever with him on it, but other designers I've worked with in the past have
delivered much higher quality stuff for much less, and with way less headache.
I think it may just be a sheer talent thing at this point, and I don't know
how to instill talent.

> based on what? People I've worked with in the past, including the person I'm
> going to hire to replace this person. I guess you'll just have to trust me
> on that though.

I recognize we hired a decent performer when we wanted a top performer. If you
know a way to unilaterally avoid that I'm all ears. And yes, I am willing to
pay for a top performer.

What I am not looking forward to now is actually firing this person.

~~~
cat-dev-null
For all employees, don't just hire people permanently, even if you or someone
else _thinks_ they're a great fit, "try before you buy". Definitely work with
someone on a temporary contract basis, and renew it, _before hiring, even a
first employee_ , and then don't re-up a contract if they don't work out. If
they need benefits, that's cool, you probably should be taking care of people.

Next time, check out their portfolio at the phone-screen step, because each
designer's tastes and abilities vary widely from individual to individual. Run
it by enough people on the "search commit" (which might be just be founders
and another couple folks) for input, because you need buy-in to dispel any
appearance of _' PHB CEO is arbitrarily hiring people without due-diligencing
them and foisting them on us'_.

Because each hard fire makes the the hiring manager and other interviewers
look bad, and it hurts the candidate... trial run (without abusing that
indefinitely) _and_ be nice & professional should be the HR-focused mindset.

If you absolutely have to fire someone, do it now, do it yourself... It's a
bandaid that's gotta come off, because putting it off just wastes your time
and theirs, when they can be elsewhere possibly improving and someone else
with a better fit could get going sooner. Be direct, honest and talk about
next steps. Give feedback if they can take it and possibly help them if it, as
long as doesn't put you into any HR/legal hot-water. Perhaps it's "We've
discussed it and determined we have an irreconcilable mismatch in terms of
design quality and taste. We're bummed that we're gonna have to let you go."

Also, have someone else impartial (before you get an HR manager) do an exit
interview to see if they're going to bad mouth you, if they have useful
feedback or if they're anything your shop can do to help them transition
elsewhere.

~~~
sheepmullet
> Definitely work with someone on a temporary contract basis, and renew it,
> before hiring

If you do this make sure you pay contract rates for the contract period or
good people (at least in the dev world) will avoid you like the plague.

E.g. My contract rate is $120/hr for contracts of 3 months or less whereas my
full time salary is ~$120k/year. If you try and offer me $60/hr (120k / 52 /
40) I'm not even going to look at your job.

------
cityzen
The irony here is that you come across as a "B Player" CEO wanting to fire a
"B Player" designer. Just sit him/her down, tell him/her it's not working out
and leave it at that. You seem to be romanticizing this by framing it as a
conversation when your desired outcome is to let the person go. Just let them
go. If you're worried about the friendship, don't hire your friends.

~~~
runawaybottle
Holy shit what a great comment. I was thinking about how to convey my initial
thoughts on the OP, but jesus, way to nail it on the head. Zero sarcasm here.
"B player" sounds like those job posts with "looking for JS ninja".

------
lancewiggs
2 potential options:

1: Go for a walk. A long one. Near the beginning drop the news on him or her
(I'll go with her for this) that you have decided to end her employment.
Identify three things that she does well, and three issues that you saw that
were not resolvable. Work with her to help figure out the next step, and do
what yo can to get her a good landing somewhere else. Accept responsibility
for not being able to give the feedback that she requires, and talk about how,
at this stage, you need someone who is more able to deliver concepts and
finished product that is higher quality. The company cannot afford her at this
stage.

2: Do the above but over a coffee nearby the office. Easier to stop the
conversation early.

3: Have a performance review, and have a similar conversation, but work out
how yo hand she are going to set targets for turnaround, get her the required
help (external peers etc) to assist her and agree on a go/no-go decision date.
As others have said it's better to turn things around than start again.

Overall I've very seldom seen a decision to ask someone to leave that has not
worked out well for both parties. Be brave, be honest, keep your integrity and
let the other person keep their respect.

------
jacquesm
You should first and foremost consult a lawyer specializing in labor law in
your jurisdiction, firing people depending on your location can be easy or
nigh-on impossible.

That said, I'd be very straight with this person, explain that you no longer
wish to continue with them. If their contract will lapse within the next 6
months or so I wouldn't do anything other than maybe just buying out their
contract for a lump sum. Otherwise just wait it out and hire your new guy/gal
when you can afford it.

I'm not sure I like the 'we could pay a lot less' bit since that seems to
indicate your motive is more economical than tied to this persons performance.

~~~
throw-it-away24
Legally it won't be a problem.

The cost isn't a factor (I mean maybe it is subconsciously), I just added that
to say that we can get better talent for less - we're not just getting subpar
talent because we're not paying enough. I really just want the best person.

~~~
jacquesm
Ok, clear. Thank you for the clarification.

------
anonfunction
How long has he been in the team? If he's been with you longer than six months
then I would offer a nice severance package.

Just tell him the truth, it's not that his work is terrible, but you need
amazing. Let him know he'll have a great reference if needed and you're still
his friend.

------
JSeymourATL
> How do you have that conversation?

This is NOT the time for a conversation. Deliver the news in a professional,
respectful, and buttoned-up manner. If you take more than 5-7 minutes, things
will go badly.

If he pleads why me?!-- Tell him, to call you in 9 months time and you'll talk
it through. But you can not discuss it now.

Time will take the sting, hurt, and anger out of the decision. It may also
give you the clarity and perspective that this was unquestionably the right
move for the business.

When (if) he calls for that follow-up conversation. Use that occasion to
repair & rebuild your friendship. It can be done.

------
6d0debc071
It shouldn't come as a surprise to them if you've been doing your job. You've
worked with them for months (I assume some significant length of time anyway),
you've presumably told them specific steps they need to take to improve their
skill level, (not just nickle and dimming specific things that you happen not
to like which they may or may not learn from,) which they haven't followed up
on, and warned them that they need to do those things or they're going to get
fired.

"Bob, we've talked about this, I told you months ago that there'd be
consequences if you didn't do X Y and Z. That hasn't happened so we're letting
you go. We've enjoyed working with you and good luck with your next job."

If you haven't worked with them like that, sure, that's a difficult discussion
to have without feeling like an ass. You've still got to tell it to them
straight, pussy-footing around won't help anything.

"Bob, this isn't working out. So, we're letting you go."

If it seems upsetting, there's not a way that I know of to sugar-coat not
having worked with someone - that seems to tend to make it worse.

------
shostack
Just a point on the creative nature of the role for your future hiring...

Hiring top creative talent is massively difficult. A lot of that challenge
stems from how hard it is to properly convey what you are looking for in their
work. Often times they either have what it takes or they don't, and to some
extent, it is talent that can't be taught no matter how much time you invest.

Starting with contract work is probably the best bet if you are still zeroing
in on what you need. But finding companies that do what you like and poaching
their designers is another approach.

Without knowing the kind of feedback you've provided to your current designer,
I think the other thing to look at is whether they are getting the feedback
they need from you despite the time you've spent giving it. If you are unclear
in your feedback, or are communicating it in a way that isn't super actionable
to a designer, it can end up with both parties being extremely frustrated with
no way forward.

Others here have given great advice on how to let them go, so best of luck
with resolving this in a clean way.

------
hashkb
I don't think in your case it would be a lie to say "It's not a good fit."
Design is a pretty subjective area so it's likely the case someone else will
find his work to be higher quality than you do. Maybe he's asking you for
critiques because he can tell you aren't digging what he's producing, or maybe
the vibe between you is no good and you're perceiving that as mediocre work.
In any event, best to get it over with; you'll both be better off without one
another it seems.

~~~
throw-it-away24
He's been with us for long enough we (meaning I) should have recognized that
earlier, so part of the problem was my fault - poor management.

This just really sucks. It's like if I do poorly other people lose.

Maybe I'm overly sensitive to this because I've been fired before and it
really sucked, but it was devastating. I don't want him to have the same
experience I did, because he doesn't deserve it.

~~~
partisan
If you feel like taking the responsibility, financially, then give him a fair
severance such that he can look for something new without ruining his
situation.

------
brogrammer90
The sooner the better. The added bonus is you'll get more quality work out of
your engineers for the next month or so until they fall into their "tests are
running" routine again.

------
trumbitta2
A designer must be good at UX (processes) and UI (pure design).

You make them sound like they're mediocre at UI. What's their level at UX?

I know I'm mediocre at producing (vs evaluating) UI, but I also know I am
great at producing UX.

Maybe they just ain't the right professional for your startup right now.

Or maybe they should focus on UX, and you should hire someone else for UI.

Again, maybe they can improve on UI if properly trained. As in a professional
training course, more than as in a colleague training them on the job.

------
navanit
You could consider investing in some training for the employee. You could have
another senior designer offer the critiques and feedback you feel are eating
into your time.

~~~
kevinchen
This is an option for large firms with resources to throw around, but at a
startup, everyone needs to pull their own weight. There are already enough
things eating into your resources -- don't need to pay a second designer to
train your first designer.

------
bsg75
> I know other designers we could hire who (I'm pretty sure) we could pay a
> lot less, would do a better job

You want an "A" you can pay for less than a "B"?

~~~
throw-it-away24
We're paying too much for a "B"

------
akulbe
Whatever you do, don't drag it out. If you're not happy with their
performance, let them go.

For future candidates, pay them to come in and do a short project. That way
you have a better chance of getting the right candidate, without committing
yourself to full employment prematurely.

If you're not happy with their performance, surely this isn't unknown to the
rest of the company. It's not good for morale (theirs or yours) to keep this
person on.

EDITED: clarity

------
DrNuke
If your business can afford this, talk and give him/her 1-3 months to reach
the level you need, sort of a probation. It doesn't need to be public and
shame, just make your case clearly and frankly, face to face. If talk derails,
offer severance for resignation. Worst case, cut it short, lose a friend and
fire, but from your op I don't think it will end this way.

------
Rannath
How much time do you actually spend with this guy? Measure it. Don't guess, or
you'll be wrong. Verify that you can get cheaper or better work elsewhere
BEFORE you let this guy go.

Ultimately you need to know if moving onto better talent is a good ROI.
Training is always an option, no-one is born great, and there are costs
associated with changing staff.

------
dragonwriter
If you are doing performance counseling with employees generally, this should
be a natural outgrowth of that, and specifically of the counseling done with
this employee aimed at understanding and resolving the performance deficit vs.
expectations so that it _didn 't_ reach the level of requiring termination.

~~~
mod
How do you counsel a designer into better design?

I realize it's not all art/talent, but do you seriously think he can just
buckle down and become a better designer?

Also, OP says he's spending a minimum of 2 hours per day with this guy.

------
lacker
Just be honest and get it done. Tell them that you expect better performance
from a designer that works for you. Then let them go. Consult with HR/lawyers
as needed. Whether someone is close but not quite at the bar, or far from the
bar, your conversation is pretty similar.

------
dshuang
Ask Netflix managers how they went through the process of letting a "B Player"
go?

------
itnAAnti
I've been in this situation a few times in the last several years, where I
have had a good, but not good-enough player, and I have tried a new approach
to the dismissal each time. What follows is what I should have done in every
instance.

First, go with your gut and end it ASAP, do not try to mentor, do not try to
grow them, just end it and move on. I have spent too much time, effort, and
money trying to bring the performance of B-players up to A-player status. If
someone has hustle, then you can point out shortcomings and they will stay up
all night making it perfect. That's an A-player in the rough; don't cut those
players. If you point out shortcomings and they continue to deliver mediocrity
over and over, cut them and move on.

Recognize who is ambitious and who is not, and place people in appropriate
roles. There's nothing wrong with people who lack ambition, but they can't
hold critical roles in high-performing teams, they drag the ambitious, hard-
working, self-motivated A-players down.

I agree with many other commenters that the right thing to do is to be honest
that it's not going to work out, and offer a severance package. I disagree
with some severance numbers that have been suggested... the standard number is
a week of severance for each year of service - that's what I go with.

However, if the person made significant concessions to work with you, for
example, if they moved their family cross-country to take the job with you,
then more severance is appropriate. "Make them whole".

As for delivering the message, my advice is the Band-Aid approach, make it
succinct, do it in a place where their co-workers can't overhear, and plan
their exit in a way that they don't run into other co-workers. You don't want
the person to have to answer "how's it going" as they pack up their desk. I
disagree with the long heart-to-heart conversation approach. After just
getting canned is not the right time for mentoring. They’ll find support
elsewhere, you trying to ease their pain makes it worse. If you like the
person and would like to help them, tell them that, but tell them to catch up
with you later on and say you’re happy to talk when they’re in a position to.
If they want to talk right away, by all means do, but don’t force it on them.

I have never fired someone too soon. In retrospect, I always should have acted
faster. The fact that you’re on here asking for advice means that it’s time to
act.

Finally, I realize that some of the above may sound ruthless, so let me make
three comments on philosophy and _why_ being direct and decisive is the best
course of action:

1) It is demoralizing to the rest of the team to see someone reaping the same
benefits they get for doing better work. One bad player will poison an entire
team. Even nice, pleasant, hard-working people who require too much care and
feeding will sap energy from the team.

2) It is not fair to the individual to leave them in a position where they are
not succeeding. Leaving someone in a position where they are not cutting it is
cruel – s/he will find a better fit elsewhere.

3) In a start-up environment, you simply cannot afford a B-player in any key
role. Everyone has to put up at least their own weight, and a single person
not doing that reduces your odds of success. A lot has been written on this,
so I won’t go on – but one wrong hire can destroy a small company.

