
Minnesota is now using contact tracing to track protestors? - amrrs
https://bgr.com/2020/05/30/minnesota-protest-contact-tracing-used-to-track-demonstrators/
======
dang
This article from Saturday compiles a hodgepodge of things about the protests.
None of it is original reporting, and most seems to be internet
copycat/follow-up stuff
([https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20copycat&sort=byDate&type=comment)),
presumably trying to siphon some of that sweet sweet click action away from
other sites. Readers looking for real information, of course, are indifferent
to that agenda, except that it makes finding real information harder.

Its source for the inflammatory phrase "contact tracing" is a Twitter search
link that mostly points back to this very same article. That's a pretty lame
trick. What's the actual source here? What exactly does the phrase mean?

The clear implication is that covid-related contact tracing techniques or apps
or data have been repurposed to track protestors. If that's true, we should
certainly discuss it, with a real source as the basis. If it's false, this is
the worst case of flamebait/clickbait that I've seen in a long time.

All: please don't believe what internet titles say, even when they feed into
what you were already expecting might happen. It's possible that your
expectations are being fulfilled. It's more likely that our attention (not to
mention our adrenalin) is being exploited. On HN, at least, let's try to let
that first rush of a reflexive response subside, and wait a few seconds for
the slower, reflective circuits to engage
([https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20reflective%20reflex&sort=byDate&type=comment)).
If you watch your own reactions, you'll notice what a huge difference that
makes.

Edit: ok, here is the source:
[https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1266758240018276352](https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1266758240018276352).
It looks like he made an unfortunate analogy between tracing violent
protesters and tracing covid-19 cases—unfortunate because it could be blown up
into yet another internet story with no there there. Unless he gets to it
later in the video (I only watched half), there's no suggestion of any data or
technology being shared across these two categories.

I don't want to overreact out of being pissed off that this site wasted all
our time, but can anyone give a good reason not to ban bgr.com on HN? It used
to be banned. I'm not seeing a lot of valuable threads at
[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=bgr.com%20comments%3E3%20points%3E3&sort=byDate&type=story),
nor stories that wouldn't have gotten discussed through some other submission.

~~~
amrrs
I'm sorry for posting it then. I read through the article they had some
official quoting. So I thought it's worth for a discussion. Otherwise I
wouldn't have. Apologies again!

~~~
dang
Oh thanks—I certainly didn't mean to pick on you personally! or even, in a
way, this specific site, since they are subject to systemic pressures to do
this kind of thing. However, this case is noticeably more deceptive than
usual.

~~~
amrrs
I've hidden the submission. Hopefully it helps. Thanks again for making this a
better place!

~~~
dang
'Hide' only hides it for you. It's a safety valve for users who _really_ don't
want to see something on HN.

------
raphlinus
I _hate_ the word choice here. It completely conflates the important public
health activity, which is for the benefit of the people (though requiring
careful attention to privacy concerns) with plain old police detective work.
As this framing takes hold, it will do great damage to public health
initiatives, which are already struggling with lack of resources and support.

------
falcolas
Some time back, when contact tracing was first being discussed, I mentioned
that State level actors would love the data being generated by these programs.

Several people disagreed, either commenting that they already have this
capability, or that they have no reason to use it.

And here we are today. The right to assemble falling victim to a tragedy of
the commons, justifying greater erosion of our rights.

~~~
DennisAleynikov
nobody ever listens unless its politically convenient. contact tracing was
never going to be left 'only for medical purposes'

~~~
thephyber
> contact tracing was never going to be left 'only for medical purposes

That's all fine and well to speculate, but where is the evidence that it's
true?

------
thephyber
> According to Minnesota Public Safety Commissioner John Harringon, officials
> there have been using what they describe, without going into much detail, as
> contact-tracing in order to build out a picture of protestor affiliations —
> a process that officials in the state say has led them to conclude that much
> of the protest activity there is being fueled by people from outside coming
> in.

This article has zero information on what they are doing. This could just be
routine investigative work, it could involve private contractors scouring
social media, it could be the FBI + NSA + Fusion Centers collating phone data.
Who knows. This author definitely doesn't.

AG Barr claimed the "outside agitators" are "far leftist" groups like "AntiFa"
(and lots of conservative social media is conspiracy theory talking of Soros-
funded groups hiring and bussing in crisis actors. Lots of public social media
posts speculating that White Nationalist groups are executing an anti-
government agenda to spark a race war (a la The Turner Diaries). Simply not
enough signal yet in the "fog of war" and this article doesn't reveal anything
useful.

------
nikkwong
This is an interesting idea. On the one hand I'm outraged by what the
protesters are doing and want to see them brought to justice. The idea of
using mobile location data to retroactively find who the looters are and
persecute them for their crimes is satisfying to some degree. On the other
hand, it's a very terrifying pandora's box which could allow the surveillance
state to reach new levels of intrusion.

It's even scarier to think that reconnaissance satellites are now actually
really good and can probably trace you even in the dead-of-night. So, even if
you left your phone at home to avoid location-tracking, just the act of
venturing outside your house creates a tracking-trail as exposed by satellite
imagery. Theoretically, law enforcement could use this data as of today to
persecute the looters. Again, satisfying in a way, but also scary to think
about.

How libertarian do we really want to be? I think the goal should be to opt for
whatever leads to the greatest good for the greatest number of people. There's
a spectrum, on one hand you have free libertarianism, and on the other, you
have authoritarinism and strict social control. It's interesting to watch how
states on different sides of the spectrum operate; namely, the contrast
between liberties for citizens in the US and China. Which one is better?

In the US we operate under the premise that we should ensure our liberties are
upheld at all costs; yet, this comes at a severe cost. China's authoritarian
approach allows them to withstand epidemics in ways that we couldn't even
dream to; and, overall, their centralized approach will allow them to surpass
the US in terms of economic output. They also enjoy much lower levels of crime
as measured by many different data points. In many ways I think the non-
libertarian approach to life there will eventually lead most people to living
better lives overall. Not saying that their approach is correct; but it's just
interesting to think about.

------
chosenbreed37
It didn't take long...

~~~
barnaclejive
didn't take long for a false article you mean? correct

