
NHS opens clinic to help child addicts of computer games - cmsefton
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/oct/08/nhs-opens-clinic-to-help-child-addicts-of-computer-games
======
matheusmoreira
It's really no wonder. Way too many games are straight up designed to create
habits in the players.

[https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131494/behavioral_gam...](https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131494/behavioral_game_design.php)

Rewards and punishments are used to create schedules. They make player do the
things the company wants them to do when they want them to do it. A simple
example:

\- playing every day rewards the player with bonus items

\- taking a break punishes the player by making them weaker relative to other
players

And of course there are those _wonderful_ companies which reward players that
spend money and punish those that don't.

WHO already recognizes the existence of a gaming disorder:

[https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-
disorder/en/](https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/)

It's only a matter of time before this industry is regulated.

~~~
grawprog
I'm glad I got out of playing games like that when I did. Having diablo 2 when
I was young was bad enough. I wasted a good amount of my teenage years on that
game. It pioneered a lot of those Skinner box mechanics that those pay to win,
I can't even call them games, scams have refined to a tee and use heavily. I'm
glad I never grew up with games like that everywhere. At least I see them for
what they are these days, I'd hate to think how hooked I might have gotten on
those things.

~~~
unicornfinder
As ridiculous as it sounds a serious benefit to me of owning a Mac is that
it's utterly useless for gaming.

~~~
Fnoord
You'll be delighted to learn Catalina contains Apple Arcade (you can find it
in the App Store). Yes, Catalina is the latest version of macOS, 10.15. Queue
the "what would Steve think" memes.

As for the topic. "(Computer) addiction" is a symptom of a (myriad of)
problem(s). It could be depression, it could be the person is bullied, it
could be autism, it could be "just" puberty.

------
grenoire
I used to think that I was addicted to video games when in high school I would
get together with my friends and play Civilization all night long, every
single day.

Nowadays I keep hearing about younger brothers and sisters who are literally
unable to get off their computers, consoles, and devices. I do relate to them
a lot, but I don't know if it's becoming more serious over time, or if we are
more attentive to it.

I hope it's not the former; I made a lot of friends playing and making video
games, but it's not a particularly productive pastime if you're _only_ playing
them. Of course, you can disagree, but I am personally a little regretful that
I didn't end up picking up an instrument or spent more time on my drawing
skills. My programming developed quite a lot during my teens, but I definitely
could have toned it down and 'played outside.'

~~~
tomatotomato37
I wonder if a career in software engineering is the difference between a
functional computer addict and nonfuctional addict. It really gives a new
perspective to the concept of developers jamming out in a hackathon for 24+
hours while sleeping under desks and trying to stay in a flow stats as long as
possible

~~~
thefounder
The main issue with games addiction is that at the end of the day/night/week
you are poorer both socially and financially. The financial aspect is quite
important and often makes the difference between a "devoted" worker/workaholic
and a "junkie".

------
bwang008
In a parallel universe I'd like to know what these people would do with their
lives if they did not become addicted to games.

I. E. What percent would lead normal lives, what amount would become addicted
to something else like gambling, drugs, or television, and such.

What I am wondering is how much of this is due to games being at fault and how
much of it is on the person + biological inclination to become easily
addicted?

Yea, games do design tricks to get people to keep playing, but so do casinos
and there is very little sympathy in society for people who are addicted to
gambling.

Gaming addiction is still relatively new and needs more studying. The question
I pose is, if someone was going to get addicted, would it be better for a
person to be addicted to games, or would you prefer something else?

~~~
DrScientist
Perhaps amongst many, there is little sympathy for people addicted to gambling
or indeed drugs, however the government still regulates these areas.

This is because government understands while there is obviously variation
between people, the key drivers for these things are not innate, rather
social. ie opportunity, environment.

This is highlighted by other addiction patterns - painkillers, tobacco, even
caffeine - these are not limited to a small group of 'losers'.

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Faark
Targeting 13 to 25 year old's seems awfully young. Near all in my media
addiction self help group are older, quite a few of them significantly.

Such help only works if the individual actually wants to change itself, and
the realization for this to be necessary can require quite a bit of "damage"
to occur. Especially if parents (inadvertently) enable the behavior. They
themselves got to fight in that dispute as well, just sending your child to
therapist tends to be a waste of time. Didn't work on the few anecdotes I've
seen/heard. Didn't work on me when my parents tried long ago. Took
embarrassingly long for me to finally seek help with the intent to change.

Btw, if anyone near Berlin (Ger) is willing to give a Dev with little
professional experience and lots of blank space on the CV a chance, please
shoot me a message.

~~~
mschuster91
> Btw, if anyone near Berlin (Ger) is willing to give a Dev with little
> professional experience and lots of blank space on the CV a chance, please
> shoot me a message.

Munich-based so can't help you directly, but look for the various marketing
agency networks. They all have offices with openings in Berlin and have a
constant need for new staff.

------
DrScientist
If your are solely data driven, without any higher vision ( eg creating
enriching experiences ) then this is what you get ( and Coca Cola and high
sugar and fat burgers and fake news ).

The question is - is it solely buyer/user beware or do the vendors have a duty
of care? Note these games products are often aimed at children.

The opioids and tabacco lawsuits would suggest people expect companies to have
have some duty of care.

In the gambling industry, governments tend to strongly regulate, and place
duty of care rules on companies.

As data and machine learning leads to optimization of exploitation of human
weaknesses for gain, what do we do?

There are already open source games - how would you manage that? make it
illegal - imprison people?? ( like for drug use )?

This problem is at the heart of the question of freewill/or whether the strong
should be allowed to ruthlessly exploit the weak.

~~~
swiley
>There are already open source games - how would you manage that? make it
illegal - imprison people?? ( like for drug use )?

That is interesting, I've definitely gone through periods where I felt
"addicted" to freeciv and openTTD. I wouldn't make them illegal though, they
can be helpful tools for managing your mental state.

~~~
DrScientist
Not suggesting freeciv should be made illegal - just a thought experiment.

So if it was decided they are harmful - you could consider the drug analogy.
Making with intent to supply is illegal or being involved in distribution -
not actually sure about creation for own use.

It might sound like a silly idea - but some countries have actually banned
video games. Malaysia banned arcade games about 20 years ago.
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-
pacific/957636.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/957636.stm)

~~~
swiley
My reaction to that is maybe the philosophy of making potentially harmful
things like that illegal might be wrong.

~~~
DrScientist
Actually that's how the law typically treats things.

However it often takes a different view on profiting/promoting/supplying
harmful things.

Back to the point about free will - versus whether people should be allowed to
ruthlessly exploit others.

Quite often people are allowed to do stupid things to themselves ( free will )
, but other people are not allowed to exploit it.

------
bArray
Meanwhile, suicide and depression rises for children in the UK [1]. I would
really rather the NHS prioritize the massive mental health crisis (affecting
children and adults) instead of bad parenting.

There are ratings on the games for a reason. Also, there are already laws
regarding children and gambling, they simply have to enforce them.

[1] [https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-
families...](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-
families/features/teenage-mental-health-crisis-rates-of-depression-have-
soared-in-the-past-25-years-a6894676.html)

~~~
theonlyklas
Maybe bad parenting results in a massive (mental) health crisis?

~~~
bArray
Maybe, but the solution for stopping young children getting addicted to gaming
is simple - stop giving kids gambling games, monitor any online play and teach
them to play games for healthy amounts of time.

I personally can't point to a single thing a parent can do in order to greatly
reduce the mental health crisis and I'm not sure it's yet well understood.
What is clear though is that behaviours that lead to suicide (e.g. depression)
are spot-able and treatable to some extent.

------
Nasrudith
This is probably unpopular but I can't help but feel the X addiction framing
is reminiscent of drapetomania. No freaking shit that kids would prefer games
to schoolwork and chores. I am sure many of us have fathers or grandfathers
who would rather fish than work.

Narcistic bad psychology based upon what they want and expect from others as
the standard of health instead of trying to understand motivations and
incentives. That has been a reoccurring theme with later discredited bad
psychology like treating homosexuality as a mental illness to be cured, or
infamous uses of institutionalization of "troublesome" people. It betrays an
ironically terrible theory of mind.

Now there certainly are uses as unhealthy coping mechanisms and executive
dysfunction but addiction loses meaning when abused to apply to literally
every source of pleasure.

The pathological cases would be better referred to as compulsive behavior
instead of addiction - a subtle but very important distinction.

~~~
bdamm
Addiction has earned a medical definition in recent decades, and it focuses on
the psychological feeling of craving and the persistent compulsive behavior.
Thus, under the modern definition of addiction, yes you can experience craving
for all kinds of non-substance things, beyond tolerance. (And, obviously,
Substance Tolerance as a separate thing has also received a rigorous medical
definition, but that came earlier than addiction.)

Of course I'd prefer to play games rather than do chores. And as a father I'm
concerned that my son is spending too much time on the iPad playing minecraft.
Is he an addict? Should there be intervention? He does seem to experience
craving. Could it be a persistent compulsive behavior? For now he's able to
put down the iPad and do the homework we all know needs to be done, so no, I
don't view that as addiction and I don't think it fits the definition. But if
it becomes an overriding compulsion to the exclusion of most other behaviors,
then absolutely we should call that addiction and treat it like addiction.

"Big Tech" knows this quite well I think and we all should know that our A/B
testing that's focused on user engagement is, in fact, curating addictive
behavior.

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goatinaboat
This is why the NHS is permanently underfunded... because it is always called
on to do additional things but it can never ditch any existing obligations.
Any serious discussion of funding must start with stopping taking on more
until the existing functions are budgeted for, then we can talk about extras.

Tobacco was taxed to cover the cost of healthcare associated with it, so games
and social media should be taxed the same way.

~~~
vertex-four
In this case, these kids were likely seeing psychs anyway - maybe even the
same psychs. Setting up a clinic basically amounts to setting aside an amount
of time in the month for a doctor to take existing caseload on from the
existing system and hiring a receptionist.

The problem is that highly specialised clinics breed power imbalances - you
don’t usually have another option for where to go because other doctors refuse
to touch the subject matter now that there’s a specialised clinic for it, so
getting treatment involves conforming to whatever the clinic doctor demands of
you, no matter how undignified or inhumane.

------
sylens
I used to think this was really far fetched but there's a whole subreddit
dedicated to folks affected by this. People constantly post on there about how
they become so obsessed with climbing a multiplayer ladder or getting
achievements/trophies that they miss class, bail on social functions, skip
work, etc.

------
aszantu
Addiction is a need for connection that isn't fulfilled. Need peace of mind?
Play some ego shooter. Can't get hugged? Use drugs. Looking for appreciation?
Go for Facebook Instagram Twitter etc. I'm addicted to gaming. Having a
keyboard under my fingers gives me a high. Why? Well people don't know
loyalty. Authorities have been abusive. We're told our world is dieing and
still politics is unwilling to change anything (feels like it at least).
Nothing meaningful to do for a kid. Except maybe go protest for a better
future. And even greta seems to be a tool. Which is pretty cynical.

------
izzydata
I'm grateful I was finally able to kick my gaming addiction. Better late than
never, but I feel like I wasted too much of my 20s and now I'm already 30. I
used to convince myself that it was fine as long as I was having fun. In
hindsight I can finally see how much of a colossal waste of time it was. There
is definitely some healthy level of gaming that can be done. However, when
your priorities put gaming at the top and everything you do is in order to get
back to gaming you should understand that it is a problem.

~~~
cs02rm0
Games or not, when you're relatively young you'll waste time by the standards
of your elders. At least it's not drugs or criminal gangs.

Youth is wasted on the young.

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C1sc0cat
MM this new "gaming disorder" that's been invented and pushed by certain
countries.

You could make the same argument about hardcore soccer fans.

Its also common for domestic abuse to happen after the abusers team loses.

~~~
izzydata
I don't disagree that people can be unhealthily addicted to sports. Those
people probably should seek help too.

------
lanevorockz
Would much rather have a clinic for Social Media mental diseases.

~~~
Angostura
You're in luck - this is for gaming and social media.

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LoveDeathRobots
Do the parents bare any responsibility?

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stuaxo
Great, hopefully one will open for people addicted to the web too.

