
Why punk keeps connecting people across space and time - kikitee
https://www.huckmag.com/art-and-culture/punk-then-and-now-cbgb-godlis-east-la-teens/
======
darkandbrooding
Almost thirty years ago now, driving around on a hot summer day with a couple
of friends. One guy puts a punk mix tape in the player, and the guy with a
college music scholarship was aesthetically offended. "Anyone could make this
music," he complained.

The other guy nodded in agreement and replied, "that's the point."

~~~
tnecniv
The other thing about punk is that it's really more an attitude. Some punks
are really skilled musicians and lyricists that bring a lot of outside
influence into their music.

~~~
caio1982
NOFX's El Hefe and Bad Religion's Greg Graffin come to mind, respectively in
your sentence.

~~~
tnecniv
Good choices. I was thinking of Bad Brains, who started out as a fusion band,
and Craig Finn's early stuff, but that probably gets into more post-punk.

~~~
aerotwelve
If we're going out in the world of genre-spanning punk, Husker Dü, Hot
Snakes/Drive Like Jehu, Wire, and (possibly if you count them) Shellac deserve
a strong recommendation. The creativity and diversity in the world of post-
punk is remarkable.

~~~
tnecniv
You can't just mention Husker Du and not bring up The Replacements!

------
sverige
Ok, I'm old and got into punk in the late 70s. Never lived in a place with a
really big active scene until Seattle in the late 80s / early 90s, but
honestly that wasn't punk _per se,_ it was something different. More rock than
punk, I would say. Feel free to disagree. The Bellingham Bash in 1990 or 91
had a good vibe, though, and I saw Nirvana at Squid Row for a dollar before
they got famous.

I think the point is that punk is accessible and relateable for a lot of
people. The punk people I've known were the most open-minded of any crowd,
whether that was built around music or something else. I think it's true that
it still unites people who otherwise would probably not mix. They are also the
most open to different styles of music.

And as for connecting people across space and time, I can't help but think of
The Fall's "Telephone Thing" every time I remember the douchebags at Google
have all my data as I type HN comments. How dare you assume I want to parlez-
vous with you.

~~~
singingfish
I saw Nirvana kind of before they were famous too (first British tour). Am I
right in thinking they were kind of unmemorable, or was it just that I had
other things on my mind at that gig?

~~~
dvdcxn
Bleach wasn't a very strong album, imo.

~~~
drcode
IDK, I kind of felt that way too when I heard it after it came out and I
started off as a Nirvana skeptic.. but nowadays when I listen to it again
there was really some interesting and unique stuff on it.

------
ilamont
One of the interesting thing about these underground music movements from hip
hop to punk is the DIY ethos for the creation of music, publications,
performance spaces, and more. Adults and respectable companies aren't helping
(for the most part) so the kids have to direct and make things on their own.

I think it's not a coincidence that many people who get involved in
underground music movements later start successful careers in creative
endeavors - fashion, cuisine, publishing, design, programming, etc. There was
a documentary a few years ago tracing the lives of people who had been active
in the 1980s music scenes and so many of them ended up in these professions.

And you don't have to look far to find more famous examples - Kira Roessler
(Black Flag bassist) won an Oscar for sound editing for _Mad Max: Fury Road_ ,
Damond John's fashion label coming out of the late 80s/early 90s NYC hip hop
scene, and Anthony Bourdain's coming of age as a young chef and NYC punk fan
in the late 70s.

~~~
neilharbinger
There's a difference between consumption and creation that is easily seen and
displayed in aesthetic and cultural choices. It also seems to affect attitude
towards employment and economics.

McKenna summed up the evolution from passive, introspective subcultures when
he observed that "we're not dropping out here, we're infiltrating and taking
over".

------
pssflops
I don't think I've yet to experience anything as incredible as the DIY punk
scene in my teenage years. People from multiple communities around Chicago
would show up at an abandoned transmission gallery and renovate enough of it
to make it inhabitable for a show that night. The dedication was purely out of
love for the scene itself and it's a shame I haven't found a parallel in
modern adulthood.

~~~
soundwave106
Not modern adulthood, but electronic dance culture in the 1990s probably (from
my point of view) was possibly close. Of course, I really don't know the early
punk scene firsthand, which I heard was way more DIY in say the early 1980s,
kind of like what you are talking about, vs when I played in a punk band in
the 2000s (this is the impression I get when I talked to some guys who were in
relatively known local bands in the 1980s).

I also don't know mmuch about the 1960s hippie culture firsthand, of course.

But my "impression" of the 1990s rave scene was that indeed it was in between
the punk ethos (DIY, warehouse takeovers, some aggressive music styles like
gabber/hardcore) and the hippie ethos (bohemian, some psychedelic influence,
etc.) At any rate you did get that sense of "for the scene" with the rave
community, something that is indeed special when you can find it.

For all I know there are some scenes similar to that still, but it's hard to
keep up with this sort of thing -- it's hard to reconcile a late-hours youth
culture with responsible 9-5 job culture. :( It would be interesting to know
for sure what has taken its place.

~~~
bfuller
>t's hard to reconcile a late-hours youth culture with responsible 9-5 job
culture

I'm a founder at a startup trying to address this problem.

~~~
skrebbel
I'm a father of two and a startup founder. I like Detroit techno, and all
relevant events _begin_ at 1 AM. The solution isn't a startup, the solution is
techno parties that start at 9 PM.

~~~
leetcrew
maybe my lameness is showing, but why do people do this? even as a teenager I
was usually running out of steam and thinking about bed at that time. is it
for people who work late shifts or are there superhumans out there pregaming
all night for a 1 AM show? or do they not even start partying until 10/11 PM?

~~~
soundwave106
From an attendee perspective I do remember those all night events to be quite
fun, so I suppose that's why people do this. :) Honestly when I was younger, I
was able to handle odd hours easier (that, or my tolerance for being sleep-
deprived and off-kilter has gone way down). It helped that I was naturally a
bit of a night owl, and it also helped that much of when I did this was when I
was in college (much more flexible scheduling during those times). Back then
the fun was worth any sleep-dep.

For others, some of it might indeed be helped by later work schedules as well
-- a lot of service industry jobs for instance are not 9-5 and are more later
shifts. On the other hand I do remember some talking about how little sleep
they'd be getting before going into work, so...

On the organization side, I guess some of the reasons for many raves starting
so late is that historically they often were after hours style events,
sometimes semi-improvised and unlicensed. There was no liquor license getting
in the way of closing earlier, and there's enough people that do want to party
all night that it makes sense to do so. (It's not just restricted to
electronic dance, where it is allowed, there are standard bars that are open
24/7).

I just chalk it up to a side effect of getting older. Even doing the standard
dance club scene hours (which here often _is_ a 10PM-2AMish scene, last call
is 3AM here) would throw me off these days. (And I'm not even a parent, which
I imagine cements your schedule even more!)

------
neurobashing
Similarly, check out "Barred for Life" [https://www.amazon.com/Barred-Life-
Iconic-Became-Handshake/d...](https://www.amazon.com/Barred-Life-Iconic-
Became-Handshake/dp/1604863943)

about the widely disparate groups of people who sport "The Bars" of Black
Flag. (I've got mine next to The Zen Of Python on my arm)

~~~
minikomi
The whole Zen of python? I'd like to see that!

~~~
neurobashing
Just the repl import:
[https://www.instagram.com/p/BCoV6RyPnAd/?utm_source=ig_web_c...](https://www.instagram.com/p/BCoV6RyPnAd/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link)

~~~
minikomi
Ah, that makes more sense. Thanks for sharing!

------
khazhou
"Punk's not dead, it just deserves to die when it becomes another stale
cartoon."

Dead Kennedys was on constant repeat on my walkman or home stereo as a
14-year-old in the late 80's. Every Friday was spent at the tiny all-ages punk
club in our east-coast college town. Government Issue, Fugazi, Das Damen,
Black Flag, Jello Biafra, even They Might Be Giants came through.

Even now, 30 years later, I load up Frankenchrist or any other DK album on
YouTube at work and that's my intense-focus music. The music is still strong
as hell, Jello's words and delivery are ruthless and scathing and hilarious,
and the whole thing just works.

I wish there was a DK today. Rage had it. Some Run The Jewels tracks have it,
but not quite.

~~~
skyyler
How do you feel about Death Grips?

------
peterburkimsher
Any recommendations of cross-cultural punk/metal bands?

Taiwanese: 滅火器
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOgNLY8nDxQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOgNLY8nDxQ)

[http://www.chthonic.tw](http://www.chthonic.tw)

Mongolian: 九大圣器 Nine Treasures
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7PfYfmoEo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7PfYfmoEo)

杭盖乐队 Hanggai
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nf1HKQNuQQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nf1HKQNuQQ)

Norwegian: [http://www.folk-metal.nl](http://www.folk-metal.nl)

Celtic:
[https://celticfolkpunk.blogspot.tw](https://celticfolkpunk.blogspot.tw)

~~~
dovik
Brasilian : Ratos de Porao
[http://www.ratosdeporao.org](http://www.ratosdeporao.org)

Spanish : Soziedad Alkoholika
[http://www.soziedadalkoholika.com](http://www.soziedadalkoholika.com)

French : La Dent Noire [https://ladentnoire.org/](https://ladentnoire.org/)
(<\- my band !)

~~~
peterburkimsher
Brazilian Portuguese: Under Control

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWyMfmdADAM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWyMfmdADAM)

Japanese: Monoeyes/The Hiatus/Ellegarden (3 bands with the same lead singer,
Takeshi Hosomi)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pppstt1_YZw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pppstt1_YZw)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbUXDcU32tA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbUXDcU32tA)

------
jasonkester
I feel like live music in general is at a low point right now that I've never
seen it at since I started paying attention in the '80s.

I'm in England at the moment, and for the last several years all the band
listings I see at bars are for one of the ten thousand "Tribute to the Mildly
Popular Band from the 70s/80s". So if I want the Thin Lizzy experience or the
Foreigner/Journey experience or the genuine-in-case-you-missed-it-the-first-
time Ratt experience, you can get it six nights out of the week because that's
all that's playing at every bar in town.

But there are no bands with stupid names playing their own crappy stuff. Even
on a Tuesday night. And that's what I miss.

~~~
jdietrich
Older people are still going to gigs, they have plenty of disposable income
and they want to see the stuff they grew up with. Younger people have many
more options for making and sharing music.

If you were born in 2000, starting a rock band seems a bit retro - you might
do it if you're into that sort of thing, but you might prefer to play solo
gigs with a looper or do weird ambient stuff with modular synths on YouTube.
There's no shortage of talented young musicians, they're just doing things
differently.

------
olivermarks
Good piece... I feel the underground dance music world has a greater arc of
history and continuity to it as it evolves, where punk was more a moment in
time that lots of people cherish, and a very specific genre and subculture.

Great book from 99 somewhat in the style of this punk article
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18756.Last_Night_a_DJ_Sa...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18756.Last_Night_a_DJ_Saved_My_Life)

------
andyidsinga
related -- this is an interesting read on sub-cultures and how (in the
author's opinion) they are co-opted over time: [https://meaningness.com/geeks-
mops-sociopaths](https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths)

excerpt:

Subcultures were the main creative cultural force from roughly 1975 to 2000,
when they stopped working. Why?

One reason—among several—is that as soon as subcultures start getting really
interesting, they get invaded by muggles, who ruin them. Subcultures have a
predictable lifecycle, in which popularity causes death.

~~~
a-dub
It's an interesting piece, but it seems like sorts of things people would say
when we actually had subcultures.

I often wrack my brain trying to think, what changed...

Was it the Internet sucking a lot of the money out of the music industry?

Was it the aging out of GenX?

Was it the long term structural effects of the GFC, with the shrinking of the
middle class and the subsequent capital booms that QE created?

Was it a change in perspective in a generation coming up with a lot of
economic and global turmoil happening? (no time for culture, time to get to
work, economic security is fragile)

Was it the growth of online dating platforms and social media? (Was all of
this just an incredibly complex system of mating calls?)

Was it the death of place? Did these cultures lose their luster when anyone
could just read all about them online, consume them, and move on? Or perhaps a
sort of centralization and homogenization of culture as a result of trends
happening in the digital world (where everybody is reading the same things,
thinking the same things, doing the same things, in any city)?

Was it the growth of burning man? A sort of Wal-Mart of subculture.

Was it rising real estate prices and the gentrification of cities globally?
(Was this new global interest in urban living driven by the Internet in some
way?)

Was it the fetishizing of Internet business? (Why do pop stars have Internet
startups now, anyhow?)

...but yes, it is super interesting. American cities these days seem to be
full steam ahead away from the weird and into the terrifyingly boring, and
they have long been fertile grounds for the germination and growth of
subcultures.

Does it really just all come down to $?

~~~
jdietrich
_> I often wrack my brain trying to think, what changed..._

A subculture can only exist if there's a barrier to entry. Commodification,
globalisation and social liberalism eroded those barriers.

In their day, hippies and punks paid a real social price for their subcultural
identity - they outraged society and were marginalised for it. If you wanted
to be a mod in the 60s, you needed money and cultural capital to get the right
clothes, the right records, the right scooter.

The Wigan Casino and the Twisted Wheel formed a nucleus for the Northern Soul
subculture, because they were the only place you could hear rare soul records.
Carnaby Street and the King's Road formed the nucleus for the mod scene,
because they were the only place you could buy tonic suits and winkle picker
shoes.

Streaming has democratised access to new and obscure music. Retailers like H&M
have democratised access to the latest fashions. Social media has democratised
access to cultural capital. A new trend can spread globally within a matter of
weeks, diluting any possibility of it spawning a subculture. There's very
little that a teenager could wear or listen to that is genuinely shocking.
Without a barrier to entry, there is no subculture, just culture.

There are two thriving youth subcultures, they just don't fit our idea of what
a youth subculture is supposed to look like - the social justice movement and
the alt-right. There's a social cost to holding extreme political views, which
prevents these subcultures from being absorbed into the cultural mainstream.
Your parents probably won't disown you if you dye your hair purple, get a neck
tattoo or listen to Merzbow. They might well disown you if you start saying
that all white men are complicit in rape culture or that Hitler had a point.

~~~
a-dub
subcultures or supercultures as everything is subsumed into some kind of
subphysical hellscape of abject banality where group think and mob mentality
rule the day centering on the most immaterial of arguments and supercharged by
misapplied statistics for engineering consumptive behavior.

cool.

------
FraKtus
When you have that spirit, you enjoy connecting with other punks. I was a
guitar player in a punk band in my twenties and we self-published our music.
When I had the idea to create a company at the end of the nineties, I had that
punk attitude to move forward and create a company even if the business around
it was new and full of question marks. All my friends recommended not to
create that startup, and in a true punk spirit I didn't care and moved
forward, I can now say 25 years later that it was a great decision. Even today
I keep that punk spirit when I make my decisions, if you feel you're doing
something right you should just trust yourself even if you are alone on the
market, avoid beeing a follower.

------
vondur
Pink/hardcore has an appeal to a certain type of person. I went to my first
hardcore show when I was 15. I still go to shows once in a while (I’m 47 now).
Kinda funny, when I was in a band, we played shows in Boyle heights, at a
House called the dust bowl, where dust got kicked up when people were slam
dancing.

------
jonathankoren
Wherever there's disaffected youth and guitars, there's punk.

(Honestly, you don't even need the guitars.)

------
brootstrap
Cool story and interesting read, makes me want to go fucking rock out instead
of being a code bro shelled up inside all day. been about 3 months since last
big rock show, much too long.

~~~
overcast
I'm getting close. After 38 years on this earth, money isn't everything, and
more of it isn't making me any happier.

~~~
brootstrap
Ah , you have many a year on me good sir. Wise words though. i'm just starting
on my journey, coming up to 5 years of professional dev work at 1 company. My
wife and I definitely connected over our love of punk/alternative musics.
There is definitely an 'energy' at these shows that is hard to describe. It is
raw and hard to capture on CDs and tapes. backyard/house/underground shows are
amazing. The passion, sweat, energy, insanely loud music are all very organic.
At most concerts here in the US the crowd is too busy taking a video of the
show instead of getting into the music and moving

~~~
electricslpnsld
> At most concerts here in the US the crowd is too busy taking a video of the
> show instead of getting into the music and moving

Where are you going to shows? This seems pretty regional, and also tied to the
size of the venue. The more DIY the space, the crazier the shows in my
experience. NYC used to have some utterly insane shows at places like DBA
(which unfortunately is no longer with us), and Oakland had some pretty rad
DIY venues pre-Ghost-Ship fire (which also unfortunately are slowly getting
shut down :().

~~~
jjulius
Spent my college years and early 20's in Seattle helping throw parties at a
variety of underground/DIY-ish venues (including ETG, two other loft spaces
down Pike/Pine from ETG, and The Monkey Loft back when it was literally
Brian's loft with his bedroom in it before he remodeled it and turned it into
a licensed space). There's definitely a stark difference in vibe compared to
larger and/or legal venues, and even a noticeable contrast between The Monkey
Loft's early years vs. it's legal years.

Something about those spaces feel more organic, more raw, more unfiltered.
Everyone is more connected, the artists seem to have a much better time, the
crowds are often more diverse and you'll hardly ever see someone staring into
their phones taking videos. That doesn't mean that good shows don't exist in
larger or legitimate venues, just that I'm often very discerning with which
large venues I'm willing to go to.

/shrug

~~~
existencebox
I'm going to somewhat tangent this to pick your brain:

Transplant to seattle from Baltimore, back east I knew all the good venues,
DIY and otherwise, and had enough connections to friends working radio
stations/djing gigs to stay in the loop. Out here I'm utterly clueless, even
to something as simple as the basement EDM scene. Any tips, if that doesn't
violate some unspoken dogma? :P (hip hop, electro, doom/grunge, punk,
whatever.)

~~~
jjulius
Sorry for the late response, but I'm happy to!

I did move away eight years ago, and while I keep strong ties to the people in
that scene and still have a good sense of what's going on, I either don't know
of the truly DIY spots right now, or there just haven't been many for the past
few years. There _are_ some quality legal underground spots, but my knowledge
of that is limited to dance music.

Kremwerk is probably most like what you're looking for, in that it's a small,
late-night basement that throws great parties with fantastic music. The Monkey
Loft would be your next bet, though per my original post, some if its luster
has faded since it remodeled itself and became legit (but they still bring
great acts). Rebar also gets an honorable mention, and while I wouldn't say
it's too "underground" of a venue anymore, it's got a lot of history as such
(read into it!) and hosts the longest-running house music night on the west
coast, Flammable (seriously, check it out, especially if my man Eugene
Fauntleroy is playing). Last recommendation for a venue would be to check out
the next Train Car House Party[0].

Your best bet would be to follow area promoters. Sweatbox and Shameless are
long-standing groups from Seattle with a history of throwing great parties.
Sweatbox doesn't throw as many parties as they used to, but just last month
they threw one in some kind of garage space in SoDo with Derek Plaslaiko
playing. I worked with both crews when I lived there and they're wonderful
people.

Other honorable promoter mentions are Innerflight, Hunt & Gather, Grounded,
Drop, Viva and Depth. While you're at it, look into anybody involved with the
Cascadia Festival[1] coming up, as many of the acts/groups involved throw
small underground parties in the city. Decibel Festival obviously gets a nod,
but they've been kind of quiet in Seattle since Sean moved to LA a couple of
years ago. All of these promoters have Facebook pages that should be easy to
find.

Hope that helps!

[0][http://www.roadarch.com/15/7/orient.jpg](http://www.roadarch.com/15/7/orient.jpg)

[1][https://www.cascadianw.com/](https://www.cascadianw.com/)

~~~
existencebox
Wanted to write a very specific thanks, you went so out of your way with this
and it's got me excited again, I've been far too down on the scene out here
for the last few years! This absolutely helps.

~~~
jjulius
Happy to help! :)

------
ikeboy
Reading this with no clue what punk is. The article doesn't do a good job of
explaining it or answering the question the title poses to someone not already
part of it.

~~~
bcgraham
Old joke.

First kid asks, "What's punk?" Second kid kicks over a trash can, points at
it, and says, "That's punk." First kid kicks over another trash can and asks,
"Is that punk?" Second kid says, "No, that's trendy."

~~~
rjbwork
Another old joke: "What's punk? Punk's dead, man."

~~~
scarecrowbob
I grew up with a bunch of crusty punks in the late 90s in the texas panhandle.
Punk's not dead, it just smells that way.

~~~
danieldk
I think you are looking for

"Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny." \- Frank Zappa, Bebop Tango

;)

------
matt_the_bass
I’ve been listening a lot to Tim Armstrong’s solo work over the last few
years. It’s great! A lot of it is acoustic guitar and many folk/country
covers. They way he plays them though is still punk to me. I’m impressed.

For those that don’t know, Tim was part of Operation Ivy and later Rancid.

------
rb808
Vans Warped tour is in its final year after 23 years. Crowds aren't what they
used to be.

~~~
dpc59
Vans warped tour hasn't had much to do with punk culture for like 15 years,
unless you consider using it as a marketing tool as what punk really is. I saw
anti-flag and face to face at a free show in Montreal this summer and punk
rock certainly felt alive. The US has punk in drublic fest going on which is
probably quite authentic considering it's thrown by fat wreck chords.

~~~
mieseratte
> punk in drublic fest

> which is probably quite authentic considering it's thrown by fat wreck
> chords

I believe it's actually throw some random investor types, who kicked NOFX and
Me First and the Gimme Gimmes off of all Punk In Drublic events after Fat
Mike, the owner and founder of Fat Wreck Chords, made a crass joke at Punk
Rock Bowling in Las Vegas this year. I will concede the Punk in Drublic fest
has a lot of big-name punk acts, but I would suggest The Fest in Gainsville or
Punk Rock Bowling which, alongside the big name / main stage acts, have a lot
of small, intimate club shows with big and small acts alike.

[0] -
[https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/rock/8459092/nofx...](https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/rock/8459092/nofx-
apologizes-las-vegas-comments)

------
nestorD
Punk connecting people across space and time is pretty much the theme of the
movie "How to Talk to Girls at Parties" (adapted from a novel by Neil Gaiman,
I would recommend it).

------
duxup
To an outsider like me Punk's attractiveness is that it can be serious, but
also not. Beyond that it is kinda anything you want it to be and that's ok.

