
The 'folly' of buying a fixer-upper yacht - smacktoward
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-26/southwinds-restoring-an-old-yacht-with-mates/11798696
======
sammyo
There are a lot of folks out on the water in "ugly" boats that are not costing
the arm&leg but safe and a lot of fun. Get a 100 foot boat, that is a boat
that looks great from 100 feet away. Sailing is totally possible for anyone,
do all the maintenance yourself, also a really good idea to deeply know every
line and turnbuckle when out in the ocean days from a mechanic.

OMG they bought a wood boat, the only way to keep a wood boat is to start a
foundation or be a billionaire.

~~~
trhway
>OMG they bought a wood boat, the only way to keep a wood boat is to start a
foundation or be a billionaire.

absolutely. On the other hand, buying an old, requiring a lot of
restoration/etc, boat is practically the only way to get such a beautiful
wooden boat as they don't build them anymore for a couple of reasons:

1\. those beautiful graceful lines were designed to "hack" the mid-20th-
century CCA racing rules - the short waterline of a free standing boat becomes
longer when the boat is heeling during actual sailing. Half a century ago the
IOR rules de-facto replaced CCA and thus all those fat boats of 197x-198x
which in turn seem to be more and more replaced during the last couple decades
by the boats designed more for the downwind planing.

2\. the introduction of mass produced fiberglass resin boats in 196x
completely killed the economics of wooden boats at both stages - building as
well as maintenance.

A mildly related sidenote just for visual pleasure for anybody who loves the
boats - i think it is just magnificient how smooth and fast this Draken is
sailing
[https://youtu.be/XORSpUUy0lQ?t=168](https://youtu.be/XORSpUUy0lQ?t=168)

~~~
jacquesm
That's an incredible boat, definitely not one for those who are easily
seasick. Also a nice testimony to how good the shipwrights and carpenters of
that age already were. It is almost skimming across the waves in some shots.

Thank you for posting this.

------
cjlars
>Financially, it was a foolish decision, which cost us at least double the
original estimates. But being in a syndicate has meant sharing the losses and
the workload.

Two good lessons. (1) Restorations are almost always far more expensive than
just buying a similar boat that has been well maintained. (2) Group boat
ownership is often a good idea, you can share the finances and no one actually
ends up using the boat as often as they think they will.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>Group boat ownership is often a good idea, you can share the finances and no
one actually ends up using the boat as often as they think they will.

That works well if you're all the type to just putt in a circle outside the
harbor. If some of the owners are the type to beat the vessel up doing what it
was intended to do and more and some of them aren't you will wind up with hard
feelings when things break.

~~~
sybarita
Would you expect the other owners to pay for something you broke?

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Because often things don't break right away. They just wear out prematurely or
repeated abuse eventually gets them. If you have multiple people with varying
use cases odds are someone is abusing the boat because they are trying to
shoehorn it into a use case it really isn't well suited for.

If you are trying to bounce off 6ft surf (emphasis on "off" rather than
"through" in a tri-hull) that will eventually come back to bite you in the
form of tearing the vessel apart at the seams. If you are constantly beaching
something with a deep V you can only go so long between events where the
prop/lower unit unexpectedly finds the ground (and eventually that will get
expensive). So you either share the cost of these repairs with the
understanding that that's just the cost of doing business (because simply
based on your varying use somebody will have to be more abuse to the vessel)
or you all get your own boats that fit your use cases.

------
geocrasher
Anyone who enjoyed this article will likely enjoy watching the rebuild of
Tally Ho, a 110 year old wooden sailing yacht. He's replacing _everything_ and
his series is amazing to watch.

[http://sampsonboat.co.uk/](http://sampsonboat.co.uk/)

~~~
PaulDavisThe1st
This is one of the best YT "series" I've encountered in, oh, maybe forever.

Relaxing, engaging, fascinating, full of subtle wit, hard-earned knowledge. My
wife thinks it is utterly boring, I could watch it for hours at a time (and
have).

~~~
theossuary
Try project binky, fantastic series

------
slowhand09
35 years of racing sailboats(mostly other people's) ranging from 14-80ft have
taught me a lot. You can do more than you thought. You can get in deeper than
you ever imagined and still get out. And this sounds deep. The coolest thing
is mentioned in the article. Sailing on and participating in this adventure
changes lives. And saves more than you might know. Over the years I've known
many people young and old who have died, by natural causes, or their own hand,
or at the hand of another. Of hundreds of sailors I've known personally, I
recall only one who took his own life.

~~~
satori99
I have been racing and sailing other peoples yachts for a similar time frame.
I grew up in the Southern suburbs of Sydney. It is a place surrounded by
waterways -- Botany Bay, Port Hacking and the Tasman sea.

When I was young, during the 1980's it seemed like every young person spent
their free time sailing and boating. Numerous sailing clubs had weekend fleets
numbering in the hundreds of vessels over multiple classes.

This has all but vanished today -- The clubs have either disappeared or are
struggling.

I'm not sure what children do today instead, but sailing isn't it anymore.

~~~
brownbat
> I'm not sure what children do today instead, but sailing isn't it anymore.

We solved distraction as if it were a game of perfect information then we put
it in everyone's pocket.

------
duxup
I'm surrounded by boat owners who repeat the old adage:

"The two happiest days in a boat owner's life: the day you buy the boat, and
the day you sell the boat."

I imagine a yacht is just that .. but more.

~~~
mmphosis
Having sold our Contessa 26 last year for cheap, I can say it has been the
happiest day. I no longer worry about what is happening during a storm. We
just got back from vacation aboard someone else's motor (sailing?) yacht where
our bed, food, navigation, and boat maintenance was all done for us for less
than it would cost just to haul out our old sailboat. I'd rather be sailing
than doing any boat maintenance. As beautiful as that all that wood looks in
the pictures, it is not fun to maintain unless that is what you like doing.

~~~
im3w1l
Do you get a better utility / maintenance ratio if you buy a boat use it all
weekend every weekend and then sell it, rather than than having it for a long
time and using it sparingly?

~~~
toomuchtodo
Yes.

------
robomartin
A number of years ago we decided to get a boat. I've been sailing my entire
adult life (through clubs) and love it. And yet, I am also good at math and
have seen friends and acquaintances go through the realities of boat
ownership. I had exactly zero interest in that.

We bought a boat. It was in good condition. The plan was to enjoy it that
summer and sell it a the end of the season. In other words, I bought a boat
with the stipulation that we would not keep it after three months. That was
not negotiable. We would potentially lose a little money in the transaction. I
thought of this as a rental fee.

This worked out great. We had a good time boating that summer. I did not spend
a dime doing anything to the boat (I made sure of this by being careful during
the purchase selection phase). We sold the boat for $1,000 less than we paid
for it. With slip fees that was about $800 per month "rental". Perfect.

~~~
hesdeadjim
I am of a similar mindset. My family has owned a small lake house in (very)
rural Maine for close to thirty years. My parents have spent a small fortune
to maintain and upgrade the property over the years.

While I am incredibly grateful for the summers spent there as a child, the
burden of ownership from a financial and time point of view had major
consequences over the years. Because this property put such a strain on
finances, it put my father through incredible strain at work. His health paid
the price. My mother also had to weather the strain of raising three boys and
working full-time to help ends meet. And because of ownership and these
hardships, going to the lake became a requirement for every vacation we took.
Even when we moved twelve hours away.

I've carried this lesson with me for many years now. When the temptation has
struck to make a big purchase like this, I remind myself that often our
possessions end up owning us. You can rent practically anything you want
nowadays, and in doing so do not need to face all of the hidden financial and
personal costs associated with ownership.

~~~
robomartin
I put RV ownership in that same category. A bunch of my neighbors own RV's. If
I had to guess I would say they are parked about 350 days out of the year, in
some cases 365. So, at the best utilization rate we are talking about being
parked 96% of the time. In some cases they have to park them off-site and pay
monthly storage fees. I now people who have had their RV's for over twenty
years. I can't understand the math.

We've rented RV's three times in the last twenty years. The cost ranges from
about $100 per day to a few hundred per day. That math I can understand. We
even have a favorite RV camping spot we've been to where you can order an RV
to be delivered and setup for you. You just show up and start your vacation,
no need to drive an RV around at all!

~~~
AnimalMuppet
For some reason, buying an RV feels different from renting one. Buying an RV
feels like buying an asset; renting one feels like throwing money away. (Maybe
this is because I've never bought one!)

I understand the numbers. I understand exactly your argument here. I would say
that you are correct. But for me, personally, it doesn't _feel_ like it. And
so, from time to time, I still consider buying an RV. So far, I've always
managed to talk myself out of it...

~~~
alasdair_
>Buying an RV feels like buying an asset; renting one feels like throwing
money away.

To me, assets are things that make me money. Things that continually require
me to pay money are liabilities.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
I do not disagree. But my less-analytical side sees that, after purchase, I've
got something to touch, so it _must_ be an asset, right? (As opposed to a
rental, when after the rental is over, it's gone.)

------
achenatx
On my honeymoon the resort had free hobie cats and lessons on how to sail. I
immediately fell in love and bought a small trailerable sail boat when we got
home. Launching and rigging was always a huge pain and took about an hour.

While out on the lake I saw people on windsurfers sailing, it seemed so much
easier to transport, rig, and sail so I took a lesson with a local club.

After the first time windsurfing I sold my boat. Rigging the windsurfer took
just 30 minutes and the equipment was so easy to load/transport. The stoke was
pretty much the same and an additional benefit was all the core strength.

I Windsurfed for a few years. I even bought my truck based on transporting
boards. I picked my travel destinations based on the wind and availability of
equipment at the destination. My friends had sprinter vans and dedicated
trailers for all their boards/sails/masts/booms. The downside was the
equipment was heavy and all dead weight. It was extremely difficult to travel
(boards wouldnt fit in rental car) and even getting equipment to the waters
edge sucked.

And then I started to see guys show up in priuses with tiny boards and kites
in backpacks. They could rig up in about 10 minutes and it was so easy to
carry everything to the water. The boards/kites were so small they could fly
as checked baggage at no extra charge, this opened up all the destinations
with wind, but no equipment at the destination.

I was in the philippines on a windsurfing vacation, but the wind was too light
for the size sails they had. The kitesurfers were all out on huge kites, so I
took a lesson and was blown away by how comfortable it was. Instead of a giant
unwieldy sail, the kite flew itself and weighed nothing. When I got home I
sold all my windsurfing equipment and have been kitesurfing ever since.

The zen is still the same as sailing, plus you get the thrill of jumping 30+
feet in the air, or being able to surf awesome waves.

------
david927
As someone who knows _nothing_ about boats, I don't understand understand why
there hasn't been more breaking of tradition. Why we don't use modern
materials and methods to create boats that are much more resilient to external
conditions, solar power instead of sails, etc.?

Edit: Thank you so much, everyone, for answering!

~~~
nradov
Fiberglass, carbon fiber, aluminum, and stainless steel are modern materials
commonly used in building boats. They are resilient to external conditions as
long as you don't drive the boat into a rock or something.

Boats don't have enough usable surface area for solar panels to propel them at
a sustained useful speed (especially not at night or in a storm). Most
sailboats do now have small solar panels to power lights and electronics.
Hybrid propulsion systems are available, although expensive.

~~~
dzhiurgis
Double sided solar panels could be a good improvement but not groundbreaking.

------
zelienople
All yachts are fixer-uppers, even (especially, sometimes) new from the
factory.

Source: former owner of Hunter, Hylas & others.

~~~
MrFantastic
If you think there is nothing wrong with your boat, there is something
seriously wrong with your boat.

------
hprotagonist
Ship, (n): A hole in the ocean into which money is thrown.

(this shouldn't necessarily deter you from owning one: just, go in with open
eyes)

~~~
haecceity
What if you live in it?

~~~
hprotagonist
not much changes in terms of money. Unlike land and houses on that land, ships
(and trailers, vans, etc) typically don’t appreciate in value: upkeep costs
are just costs, you’re not usually “paying into” something which you can “get
your money back on” later. Arguably that’s true for property too but we like
to believe it’s not.

there are many factors beyond monetary value that ought to influence decision-
making.

~~~
yardie
Houses don't appreciate in value. The land they are on appreciates faster than
the building depreciates.

~~~
bretpiatt
Structure can and do go up in value if replacement cost increases from higher
material costs, labor costs, building code and permitting costs (that just add
cost, not directly to buyer utility), etc.

------
m463
Interesting classic story of a software engineer who bought a boat...

"An account of an around-the-world solo sail in a 31-foot boat, 1988-1991"

[https://arachnoid.com/sailbook/index.html](https://arachnoid.com/sailbook/index.html)

------
joeblubaugh
Oh my is that a beautiful boat.

I love that fiberglass has made sailing more accessible, but those timber
hulls really have something to them.

------
emmelaich
Another epic restoration in Sydney - the tall ship James Craig.

Took $30m and 40 years!

[https://www.shf.org.au/explore-the-fleet/our-operational-
ves...](https://www.shf.org.au/explore-the-fleet/our-operational-
vessels/james-craig-1874-tall-ship/)

------
mark_l_watson
I met my wife when good friends brought her along when I invited them for
sailing/whale watching. She loved boating, but I had a crappy little boat that
I liked because it was so low in monetary value that I didn’t think twice
about taking it to Mexico for fishing and general fun anchoring in Bahia de
Tondos Santos. My wife didn’t particularly care for my crappy little boat but
fortunately she liked the captain.

Anyway, 35 years ago we found a boat we liked at a boat show but it was $45K
new and would have needed another $5K of gear. We didn’t get it, but a year
later we found the same boat used that had definite wear and tear, but at half
the price. We enjoyed that boat for almost ten years, and sold it at a good
price. I have always been grateful for how well that turned out.

------
peterwwillis
I've experienced this with cars, where I wanted to buy something cheap and fix
it up, only to find the costs were way higher than I'd anticipated. I've since
learned to look for better "deals" that require minimal work, but the lesson
that trying to cheat reality doesn't work is still there.

I feel like a "life lessons Wiki" would be really useful. When the old salts
said the buyers were crazy, they were right! But they probably couldn't
articulate in great enough detail, so they weren't listened to.

~~~
Jamwinner
Unless you have an edge over others, the car has already been priced to 'be
fixed up.' Nevermind that at least a third of used cars are for sale because
they are 'upside down' in repairs. I.e. they are worth less than a mechanic
would charge to fix it. If you can outdiagnose, source cheaper parts, and not
value your time, you can make a reliable profit.

Number one tip: know your niche and stick to it. Pick a single
model/generation/platform and dive deep. Forums exist for every car, boat,
tractor, and hot air baloon made. The common issues, fixes, and prices will
already be in your mind when you evaluate one to buy. Money pits are always
just things you don't know well enough to make sound financial decisions
about.

------
swiley
IMO it's surprisingly easy to build small boats on your own.

Easy enough in fact that I wouldn't bother buying one until you at least get
into the $1k+ range.

~~~
rebuilder
Any resources on that? I assume we're essentially talking rowboats here, given
the price range. I was going to say I'm very skeptical it's as easy as you
make it sound, but after a quick mental rundown of material cost, I'm suddenly
curious and maybe would like to build a boat!

~~~
swiley
The cheapest is skin on frame style boats (like the original Inuit kayaks.)
You build a frame with wood and then wrap it with canvas and paint it to keep
the water out. People have even made small dinghies this way.

The easiest (maybe, SoF is pretty easy) are probably plywood boats. A lot of
people like "stitch and glue" but the "glue" is usually epoxy resin which is a
human carcinogen so I've never tried it.

------
lmilcin
Fixer-upper is not a folly.

1\. It is the only way for many people

2\. It allows to trade your time for a huge discount which may be advantageous
if you have relatively low wage.

3\. It creates healthier market making boats cheaper for everyone because now
low end yacht makers compete with used boats and because as an owner you can
sell used boat making it effectively cheaper to own.

Now... it is a folly if you have no idea what you are buying. Some kinds of
damage is going to be too costly to repair properly. It is best if you have
already spent some time sailing before you buy one.

------
rb808
Reminder - NY boat show in a few weeks.
[https://www.nyboatshow.com/](https://www.nyboatshow.com/)

------
lightedman
BOAT = Bust Out Another Thousand, as anyone that has owned any boat can tell
you.

Glad I got mine sold off a while back. Maintenance is costly.

------
aliswe
I immediately thought about the guy who filled his boat with foam, in his
quest to make it "unsinkable".

Also, he made it fully autonomous.

[https://towndock.net/shippingnews/sean-d-epagnier-and-
alexan...](https://towndock.net/shippingnews/sean-d-epagnier-and-alexandra)

------
wrnr
Can someone tell me what the phrase "fixer-upper" comes from? Is it a type of
woodwork, or maybe refers to fixing and upgrading?

~~~
redis_mlc
It means you buy something unfinished with the plan to improve it after
purchase.

A lot of people buy houses that way in the USA, but it is usually stressful on
the marriage, and banks require the house to be habitable before a mortgage is
issued.

Generally large boats are not in the same category, so it's a red flag here.

~~~
mturmon
> ... it is usually stressful on the marriage...

So true. My wife and I noticed that several of our friends who had renovated
their house on the way to a big showcase (e.g., to become one of the homes on
a home design tour) ended up getting divorced right after the big showcase.
They lost their focus on what really mattered.

------
aj7
Suspect this applies to machine tools, as well.

~~~
analog31
Indeed, and wait until you have to buy and maintain tooling, including
cutters, fixturing, etc. That stuff adds up quick.

------
toomanybeersies
They say the second best day of your life is the day you buy a boat, and the
best day of your life is the day you sell it.

------
bobbyd3
“Go small, go simple, go now” - Larry Pardey

~~~
GrumpyNl
Just rent a boat for those few days.

------
dpeck
reminds me of the documentary that Moxie Marlinspike, of Signal fame among
others, did a few years back about fixing up a boat in south Florida and
sailing it in the Caribbean.

[https://vimeo.com/15351476](https://vimeo.com/15351476)

------
wheaties
Wow, read this and thought, "this is like airplane ownership."

~~~
newnewpdro
Maybe, if the hangar is on a salty, wind-blown beach.

------
purplezooey
The article is about a sailboat. A real yacht is powered by two engines. :)

~~~
soneil
We use the term differently in British English. It’s a yacht if it has a
cabin, a dingy if it doesn’t. We really don’t use “sailboat” at all (it sounds
like “wingplane” to our ears).

