
Google Duo rolls out realtime AV1 - jupp0r
https://www.blog.google/products/duo/4-new-google-duo-features-help-you-stay-connected/
======
Polylactic_acid
Everyone is commenting on the product but what I want to know is how on earth
they are able to encode AV1 in real time. I tried AV1 encoding a few months
ago and was getting about 0.3fps encoding 1080p video on an i7 4770k. I'm
guessing the default settings on the av1 encoder are more focused on size over
speed but still, how could they be getting 30fps video encoded in real time on
a phone..

~~~
Jugurtha
What I want to know is how on earth did they make the page 58.7 MB. This can't
be.

~~~
jml7c5
I thought that had to be a typo. Good lord, why are they shipping videos as
gifs?

~~~
jtvjan
If it's stupid but it works, it's still stupid.

~~~
ithkuil
But it works.

If it's clever and it doesn't work, it's surely clever ... but it doesn't work

~~~
emilfihlman
It has been known and well understood for many years now that you should use
video (like mp4 or webm) in place of gifs if you want to save bandwidth.

~~~
ithkuil
would encoding your AV1 encoding demo with another encode produce the desired
effects?

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bane
Being stuck at home and working 100% through Teams, I have to say, if Google
wants to have a long-term strategy here, being more like teams and less like
Apple or Facebook would be better.

Chat + Forums + Fileshare + Video chat + Voice chat + OneDrive integration +
Sharepoint integration + Kanban + goodness knows what else

Before the lock-down we all turned our nose up at it as "yet another lame chat
app", now it's dominating everything, and it works on MacOS, Windows, iPhone,
and Android -- so there's no excuse for anybody to not have it on their phone
as well.

There's nothing else that's even close for us and just on my team we have
about 60 people on it, and across the company over a thousand. It's almost
100% replaced all the other things that do the things in the list above with
the exception of Jira and a few holdouts still using Webex (so there's a dial-
in for people outside our org who don't have teams, but we've even been using
for meetings across different organizations that have teams and it works
perfectly fine).

Duo, Meet, Hangouts all seem really spare and kind of old fashioned now.

~~~
kyriakos
As someone who does all his work through teams I must say it's only strong
point is integration with OneDrive and sharepoint. Other than that the
application is a nightmare. On Windows its the slowest thing I'm running at
any point, I understand its an electron app but there are no excuses for its
performance. On android it keeps missing notifications. After a while the
concept of teams in teams is being overlooked in favor of less formal chats
which yet don't have all the features of teams. Now teams have channels which
make zero sense if everyone from the team can also see them and there is no
way to fix that.

Sharing code requires 4 clicks and there is no keyboard equivalent way to get
to it.

And the list goes on.

The sad truth is that if teams didn't come for free with office 365 it
wouldn't be able to stand on its own.

~~~
maxerickson
Chat and channels and so forth are a big mess in Teams, but multiple channels
in a Team do make sense, as topics.

~~~
bane
We usually start a channel for each program, and each project gets a channel
as needed. It works really well as an organizational scheme.

------
ipython
I'm confused- as far as I'm aware, there are three different video calling
products at Google - Hangouts, Meet, and now Duo? What are the
similarities/differences between them?

~~~
timdorr
Hangouts == WhatsApp. It's the older chat + video system. It's being split
into Meet and Chat.

Meet == Zoom. It's video conferences for businesses.

Duo == FaceTime. It's video calling, with integrations into the Phone app on
Android.

~~~
keyle
It's fun because Duo implies "Deux", or "2". And it takes up to 12 people ;D

~~~
lonelappde
Duodecimal == 12

~~~
keyle
Nice one!

------
jillesvangurp
Google seems to be still flogging the dead as a doornail horse that is Duo. I
don't see this going anywhere.

Basically compared to Skype, Facetime, Whatsapp, Facebook, Signal, Telegram,
etc. Duo is an also-ran that most users of the before mentioned competitors
have probably never even heard off. I understand they managed to get some
traction in some secondary markets that are mostly not the EU or North
America. I actually have conversations with people on all of these, except
Duo. I've never had a single person reach out to me with the request to do
anything whatsoever on Duo. Not a thing. I've never seen it in the wild. I
don't know a single person using it.

I just came out of a meets/hangouts meeting. I'm sure the rebranding is very
significant to Google internally while they deal with Conway's law and
internal teams continuing to try to "own" this space. But from the outside it
looks like more of the confused strategy around Google
Voice/Hangouts/Docs/Buzz/Wave/etc. where there's always an orphaned thingy
that is actually useful that vaguely enables people to actually talk and chat
to each other.

Meanwhile, between Slack, Microsoft Teams, Zoom, Google seems to be lacking a
good strategy for competing effectively with those. I find it very telling
that startups that are Google customers still opt to use things like Slack and
Zoom. There's something missing there; a vacuum that Google has been dancing
around for years without actually managing to compete. Literally every team
I've been on in the last five years had Google docs + gmail as well as Slack.

~~~
mavhc
You'd think they'd force every android phone to have it, and then bake it into
the dialer. It's doing the whatsapp thing of using your phone number as your
account, because people realised most people can't sign into accounts to save
their life.

Android dialer should have Start Voice Call, Start Video Call, and Start Group
Call, where only the first one uses ye olde voice network

~~~
thu2111
Pixel phones at least do have it. I use it sometimes with my girlfriend
because the video quality is higher and because it runs on my laptop, so I can
use a bigger screen when at home. But WhatsApp also offers video chat and she
defaults to using that because our conversations (when apart) start with text
chat, and WhatsApp works fine too.

Basically, Duo suffers from being only video chat. I don't know why Google
can't make a WhatsApp competitor that's good. I think the problem is it's
never had a CEO that really cared about this product category so it flails
around, dominated by professional product managers who don't have any burning
innovative idea (unlike when WhatsApp was new and the big idea was to use
phone numbers instead of user names).

~~~
ProZsolt
Here in the UK you can use Messages[0](the default SMS app) for chat. It
supports RCS. You can send pictures, emojis or even use for group chat.

[0]
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.messaging)

Current availability: Chat features in your Messages app are available in
France, Mexico, South Africa, Spain, the UK and the US, and across multiple
operators globally. We are working on bringing chat features broadly to more
regions, operators and other messaging apps (e.g. Samsung Messages).

~~~
tssva
And Duo is integrated with Messages. You can launch a Duo video call within a
Messages conversation.

------
salimmadjd
This might be a great product, but I'm so burnt by various Google's
connectivity and social media products that I won't invest 1 minute of my time
on it. Because I know it'll be matter of days before google cancels it

~~~
ip26
I spent one minute getting my grandparents to install it. One more minute
getting my parents to install it. Now we video call. The end.

Unlike chat apps, there's not that many people I want to video call.

~~~
hrktb
I already spent 5 minutes explaining my wife how it's neither Hangouts nor
Meet, even if it uses the same Google login.

At some point clear marketing becomes a user facing feature.

~~~
1024core
> I already spent 5 minutes explaining my wife how it's neither Hangouts nor
> Meet, even if it uses the same Google login.

Why would she care? It's a separate app. Just fire it up and start a videocall
with someone. With Duo I can call friends on Apple devices, and the quality of
the call is excellent. I use it to call my mom (in another city) any time I
want to talk to her. She's a technophobe, but even she can answer the call and
start chatting with me.

~~~
throwaway2048
Yeah why would anyone be confused at which Google chat app of the 7+ they've
launched you are talking about.

~~~
1024core
How many of them have been named "Duo" ?

------
therealmarv
Tried all. Only Meet and Duo are really good and even with video when you
connect to somebody in a jungle, 50% around the globe far, on a 3G and 100kbps
max and super flacky internet connection. All other failed under this
circumstances (the predecessor hangouts is also okayish).

Don't know what Google does differently but boy this thing still works with
really shitty slow internet. Glad to see AV1 usage here now. HD video chat
with an analogue modem connection ;)

------
thomasahle
AV1 and the whole open media format alliance is pretty great. It's hard to
fathom that it's only been a couple of years since all the good codecs were
locked down and patented.

~~~
acdha
Also, don't forget what happened with H.265 where things were pretty far along
with the MPEG LA patent pool and then the second HEVC Advance pool
materialized demanding additional payments. Given how cut-throat the space is
I am still afraid of that happening once it'd be hard to back away from AV1 —
there's at least one company trying that now:
[https://www.cnet.com/news/patent-group-wants-a-new-toll-
on-t...](https://www.cnet.com/news/patent-group-wants-a-new-toll-on-the-
streaming-video-road/)

~~~
hvis
There's not much we can do, collectively, except to use the best available
probably-unencumbered option, and then wait for the courts to throw the
patents away.

Google starting to use AV1 in their products in earnest should either trigger
the patent suits from the aforementioned "at least one company", or serve as
an additional argument in favor of any company that starts using it now.

------
arsenalist
I have been using Duo almost everyday for the past 2 years, the video/audio
quality of the call has always been incredible given me and my partner's
lacklustre internet connections and it does seem like Google is actively
developing it. Having used alternatives like Hangout and WhatsApp, they really
don't come close so I am surprised with the low adoption rate, at least within
my circle of friends and family. I don't think Google will kill it given how
actively they are working on it but I wouldn't be surprised too if they do,
I'll probably have a hard time finding a replacement as good.

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Noxmiles
So, this is probably a sign that the new Pixel Smartphone will have an AV1
hardware de/encoder.

In Software, with 720p video (or more), the battery of the phone would be
empty in no time.

~~~
grishka
I'm not even sure it's at all possible to encode AV1 in realtime without
hardware acceleration. Decoding, on the other hand, isn't all that
computationally intensive.

~~~
microcolonel
> _I 'm not even sure it's at all possible to encode AV1 in realtime without
> hardware acceleration_

On large PCs it's been possible for a while, through SVT-AV1. On phones I
think less so right now, if you're talking about using AV1 to get noticeably
better rates than VP9.

That said, it's possible that they have a reduced set of tools/passess that
can run in realtime on a phone, and it looks like the rate is extremely low,
which also improves encoding complexity. Even software VP9 encoding has been
rare on phones though up to this point, so I'm not sure exactly what is meant
by this change.

~~~
jupp0r
There is just one pass in video telephony because you can't wait for the call
to be over to start a second pass before you send the video.

~~~
microcolonel
I did not mean passes in the sense of two-pass rate control.

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paxys
It's crazy to me that the largest players in tech (Google, Apple, Facebook
etc) are all struggling to support more than 8-12 people in a group call while
Zoom can do 1000+ without breaking a sweat (100 just on the free plan).

~~~
dirtyid
What does a 1000 zoom conference even look like?

~~~
paxys
Probably variations of "please mute yourself" repeated for an hour.

~~~
aembleton
Moderators can mute everyone

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kick
They really should have had the Duo logo on the left side of the side-by-side
comparison gif; it gives off a really poor first impression on the right.

~~~
adrianmonk
Yeah, that seems like an unfortunate oversight. Since they are both Duo, it
shouldn't say Duo on only one side.

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mgamache
I bet that it's only for very low bandwidth usage. In that case it would
_probably_ only have to encode a 640x360 frame (or even lower) at 15fps. It
could also take shortcuts to reduce the encoding complexity (like block size
and motion estimation). Still an important step forward.

------
giarc
>Duo makes it easy to send personalized video and voice messages when you
can’t call.

I've never understood why Facetime doesn't allow this.

~~~
gevz
I think you can send voice messages and/or make a video straight from FaceTime
UI and send it immediatelly.

------
skunkworker
AFAIK there aren't any current mobile devices that have native AV1 playback so
this is all in-software for now?

Though if the goal is to allow for extremely low bitrate use it might not chew
up too much of the processor and battery.

~~~
skavi
I think MediaTek has put an encoder into their newer chips. Qualcomm still
hasn’t though.

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jupp0r
I wonder if what the hardware limitations are. Given the current state of AV1
encoders, I imagine there has to be hardware encoding to make this feasible.

~~~
dstaley
If I had to guess, the AV1 encoding is being done server-side. AFAIK no phone
has a hardware AV1 encoder (or decoder for that matter). The bitrate is low
enough that a software decoder is likely fast enough.

~~~
ajconway
They specifically state that Duo is end-to-end encrypted.

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jpeg_hero
It’s hilarious watching Google trying to be a consumer-focus company. What
features do they lead with:

1) end to end encrypted, and

2) we’re constantly making optimizations

3) uses AI to reduce audio interruptions,

4) and Excitingly! Coming Soon! we’re rolling out a new video codec

5) that works with very low bandwidth connections

I dunno I use FaceTime, it “just works”

~~~
ajconway
FaceTime is a great product, one of the best in terms of audio/video quality,
but it does not work on the majority of devices.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Am I the only one who has latency issues with Facetime? It makes conversations
flow less naturally.

Google's latency isn't stellar either, mind you. For all their issues, I think
the best mainstream solution for latency right now is Zoom...

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Nightshaxx
I would love to use this....If I had any guarantee Google is going to support
this in the long run....

Google doesn't seem to realize it's not easy getting your friends who aren't
techheads to move from one platform to another, so in order to switch I have
to know this isn't going to die soon. Untill then I'll stick with
hangouts/skype. Why couldn't they just keep the hangouts branding? I have no
idea, its kind stupid.

(Also yes, I know hangouts is going to die. But it hasn't yet and that's what
all my friends already know about.)

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xiphias2
The blog writes that ,,Duo already uses AI to reduce audio interruptions'',
but WavenetEQ was a Pixel 4 only feature as far as I know. Is it rolled out to
everybody as well?

~~~
ProZsolt
[https://ai.googleblog.com/2020/04/improving-audio-quality-
in...](https://ai.googleblog.com/2020/04/improving-audio-quality-in-duo-
with.html)

"WaveNetEQ is already available in all Duo calls on Pixel 4 phones and is now
being rolled out to additional models."

------
Adrakhones
And group calling is still only available for iOS and Android, not through the
web app. Odd choice.

------
d1egoaz
I thought this was product was dead.

~~~
jvolkman
Maybe you're thinking of Allo which was released at the same time. Pretty sure
Duo is fairly widely used.

~~~
Roritharr
Is it?

I can reach more non-technical people on Signal than on Duo.

~~~
recursive
Reverse for me. Small sample size though.

~~~
interestica
Google will kill the name and incorporate it into Meet once they add multiuser
support....

~~~
recursive
They've been in the process of shutting down Hangouts for about half a decade
now. I'll keep using it until it doesn't work.

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Jaruzel
Most of the comments are focusing on Duo, but the real takeaway for me is that
the demo claims to achieve the better image with AV1 _in only 30Kbps !_ That's
less bandwidth than the final dial up modems had.

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BooneJS
We use Duo to let our kids talk to my father, who is out in the woods with an
iPhone but no broadband. It works pretty well compared to FaceTime. One day
the kids may get to visit him again!

------
cco
Seems neat, would love to try it out but unfortunately I can't think of any
friend that uses Duo. Maybe if Duo had a web interface it would be useful? My
friends and I have tried Jitsi over the past few weeks but it has been buggy
as hell and we gave up. Zoom seems scummy, so we're back on Google Hangouts
for awhile but that is not great for other reasons.

~~~
decko
Google Duo does have a web interface

~~~
antoinealb
duo.google.com :)

~~~
cco
Oh my...when did this happen? I had no idea!

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Pxtl
Solving the wrong problems. Duo's problems aren't encryption, they're poor
ergonomics like bad Assistant support, bad support for people without phone
numbers, and the fact that they lost all the headway they'd made with Hangouts
by throwing out their userbase with a new product.

------
cs02rm0
Would Meet get this rolled out next?

I've noticed video quality on it seems to be really poor recently and even
just freezes for people who aren't the current speaker.

I don't have the same issue with Slack, Teams isn't great but isn't as bad as
Meet.

------
daniel_iversen
How does the Duo call quality (image quality, reliability, lag etc) compare to
Zoom? (I know they aim at personal vs business respectively but for a small
team I’ll choose the tool with best quality).

~~~
ProZsolt
I think they are on pair, both are excellent.

But Duo for more than 2 people is currently Phone only. Also, you can't
schedule a call, which could be annoying for meetings. For personal calls I
prefer Duo.

------
ChrisArchitect
great to see the technology updates, and in this new world of way more video
calls definitely more ppl will be using it just as an option on their phone
(don't need to get into the marketing problems) -- what holds me back from
using it is the requirement to use my phone number as the login. To me the
phone number has hardly anything to do with the device and I'd rather just
keep using my google account like all other apps.....

------
jaimex2
Anyone use Duo?

I don't have any contacts with it, I guess no one has faith it'll stick around
like all other Google chat apps.

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ksec
Dang, any reason why this title is allowed when the post's title is different
and its content barely mentions anything about AV1.

Edit: I think it is a perfectly valid Question. I dont see why the Downvote.
Not to mention it is against the guidelines.

------
kreetx
Is this in any way related to WebRTC, or just Duo-specific?

------
DethNinja
Does anyone really buy that E2E encrypted stuff coming from big software
companies? I don’t see any reason why someone would believe that without
seeing the source-code and letting people host their own servers.

~~~
joshuamorton
What reason does Google, apple, or Facebook have to lie?

What is the threat model that starts with "we claim to e2e encrypt traffic but
don't so that..."?

Storing all the video isn't feasible, not is analyzing it in real time, so the
only sensible threat model is targeted attacks, but the companies have no
reason to do that. Governments do, but this makes the companies resistant to
governments.

~~~
aaaxyz
> Storing all the video isn't feasible, not is analyzing it in real time, so
> the only sensible threat model is targeted attacks, but the companies have
> no reason to do that. Governments do, but this makes the companies resistant
> to governments.

Analyzing the audio stream of a video call is possible in real time, in fact
Google meet already does it to offer closed captioning in real time (the only
good feature meet has compared to other alternatives)

------
qkhhly
Two years from now: Google is shutting down Duo...

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bassman9000
If it's E2E encrypted, what's the business model?

Is it the call metadata (who/where/when) that valuable?

Or is it just at loss to prevent future competition?

~~~
mav3rick
Platform lock in.

------
wffurr
Let me know when I can start video calls from the browser. Until then I am
sticking with hangouts.

~~~
advisedwang
Now: [https://duo.google.com/](https://duo.google.com/)

~~~
awill
except web only supports two callers. Not group chat

------
bingobob
can they fix it so kids Family link account work without a dam phone number
ffs Google Family link is a joke sometimes

------
dcdevito
Android needs a video calling app built into the OS. I’m tired of calling
family and friends on Zoom.

~~~
Godel_unicode
If they built it in, it wouldn't update as fast. They can't mandate it because
of the EU antitrust ruling.

~~~
danielscrubs
Microsoft got around that by asking European consumers which browsers they
wanted:
[https://edition.cnn.com/2010/TECH/03/01/europe.microsoft.web...](https://edition.cnn.com/2010/TECH/03/01/europe.microsoft.web.browser/index.html)

------
KaoruAoiShiho
Just buy Zoom dude.

~~~
nichos
The only company worse on privacy than Google.

