
Living in 80 square feet (2010) - luu
http://unschooled.org/2010/03/living-in-80-square-feet/
======
BugsJustFindMe
> _My current bedroom is ..._

Yawn.

This isn't living in 80 square feet. This is bedrooming in 80 square feet.
There's a gigantic difference.

There's no mention of cooking, bathroom, or other shared space.
Congratulations, you actually live in a much larger space than you admit.

My first apartment in Paris was ~118 square feet (11m2), but that was
INCLUDING a kitchenette, an enclosed bathroom (toilet, shower, and second
sink), and an inward slanting wall (it was inside the building roof) which
eliminated maybe a good fifth of the volume, and also no closet.

And I lived there with my partner, so there were two people sharing that
space, with two peoples' worth of clothing and coats and computers and other
materials and dishes and pots and pans and luggage, and two peoples' worth of
constantly being in someone else's way.

And only that last detail, the constant interminable contact with another
person, was difficult.

But an 8x10 bedroom for one? So?

~~~
8draco8
In Europe full featured apartments under 20m2 (~215 square feet) are pretty
standard. I personally know quite a few people that are living in such
apartments with kids. 11m2 sounds like standard European bedroom in apartment.

~~~
tobltobs
> In Europe full featured apartments under 20m2 (~215 square feet) are pretty
> standard.

Seriously?

[http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
explained/index.php/...](http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
explained/index.php/File:Average_size_of_dwellings,_by_degree_of_urbanisation,_2012_\(%C2%B9\)_\(m%C2%B2\)_PF15.png)

~~~
neoeldex
This is average, there are huge houses where I live. But there's also tiny
ones.

~~~
tobltobs
I am a statistics noob, but with this average and the tiny ones are standard
the huge ones must be really huge, super mansion like huge.

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drej
Until last December, I would live in rooms well under 100 square feet, for
about four years. I won't go into details how I got there, but surprisingly,
money wasn't the issue. Anywho. I kind of got used to it and it wasn't half
bad in the end (Stockholm syndrome kicking in?). My 2c:

1\. Get systematic about tidying your room. A pile of clothes is a lot larger
than a tiny column and it takes minutes to arrange. Also, clean up right after
the fact (especially if it takes no time) and don't leave things for later - a
case in point - food. If you eat in your room, take the plates and stuff to
the kitchen ASAP, don't leave it be.

2\. Use shelves and boxes. I had most of my stuff in shelves above my table,
but it soon got out of control. I got a few shoe boxes (for cables and stuff I
didn't need to look at) and bought some transparent plastic boxes (for things
I needed to glance at). Use lids for stuff you don't access often.

3\. Don't get rid of things you care about. I know, space is precious, I got
rid of my lovely Dell computer monitor. But I never got rid of my books, even
though they took up most of shelf space (and I read on my Kindle anyway).

4\. Cherish common areas. I presume you have a bathroom, kitchen and possibly
a living room in the building you live in. Figure out when others are not
using these areas and hang out there for a bit. Make your work/leisure station
portable. I would often cook while watching YouTube lectures or listening to
audiobooks (iPad with a kickstand, bluetooth speaker). Or would go to the
living room to watch telly while catching up on email.

5\. Use your luggage. I would have a suitcase on top of my wardrobe. I would
put my winter clothes during the summer there and vice versa. You'd be
surprised how much that helps.

6\. Get an air freshener. Sounds a bit weird, but in such an enclosed space,
any odour can get irritating, because it's everywhere, because everywhere
defines quite a compact area :-) I got something from a Coop, a few quid,
plugged in a few times a week.

~~~
throwanem
> 1\. Get systematic about tidying your room.

Strong second. Clutter shrinks spaces.

------
Symbiote
7.5m², to save the search.

I think that's even smaller than my room as a student in London.

~~~
iagovar
I actually can't picture it. I mean, if you have a bunch of books, a bed, a
computer, clothes, a kitchen, a washing mashine and a bit of storage...

~~~
ctdonath
Books? E-books take no space. Public library has vast storage on your behalf,
free.

Bed? Futons are small. Air mattress rolls up tiny. Elevate a regular bed and
all that space is available again.

Computer? Notebooks fold up to nearly nothing.

Clothes? 3-4 outfits fold to 1 cubic foot.

Kitchen? Hot plate and nesting pots take another cubic foot max.

Washing machine? Laundromat, or sink & clothesline.

Storage? Under other things, or hang from ceiling. Don't need much.

We're talking urban, not rural, so many services are normally available
covering anything lacking for space.

Even if rural, note that some people go on 2000 mile backpacking trips, taking
6 months, carrying all their stuff totaling just 20-30 pounds.

~~~
flavio81
However, at least here, the idea is that if you are cash-strapped (and thus
you have to rent a tiny place), you need to save money in all possible ways.

This means that you need to cook your own food. I cook, and I tell you that i
couldn't make it if i had only one hot plate. I would need at least a 3-burner
kitchen with a stove. And a microwave. And you shouldn't put things on top of
the microwave. Plus a reasonably sized fridge, because you save money by
buying in bulk.

In the same way i definitely must have my own washing machine and -if drying
space isn't available- a drying machine,

    
    
        > so many services are normally available covering anything
        > lacking for space.
    

otherwise spending on a cleaning service gets very expensive here, basically
in two or three months the service costs you as much as a washing machine.

Of course, not cooking your food can make a big impact on your finances here.
And mind you, this (Peru) is a country with cheap meals. But cooking your own
is still cheaper.

As for clothes, i can't see how 3-4 outfits is enough. I work in business suit
and I need at least 3 business suits, then add the regular/casual outfits and
the sport outfits and you are counting about 9-12 outfits. Business suits
shouldn't be folded.

~~~
Jemmeh
There's a lot of foods you can eat without having to cook them, or that you
can cook with just a single electric burner. You can buy a mini dorm fridge +
small microwave if you really need one, but simply buying whatever is on sale
like meat that is about to expire or very ripe fruit is a good way to still
save money without needing a lot of space.

Washer and dryer uses a lot of electricity and water, so while it is more
expensive to go to the laundrymat it's not as much as you might think,
especially vs the savings of living in a very small space. Wearing your
clothes more than once helps a lot, and even in a small space you can usually
find somewhere to hang suits. Usually the back of a door is good.

There's a lot of people out there that make it work. :)

------
pvdebbe
The trouble with small spaces is that they cost unproportionally much to rent.
I could probably fit my home life in a 80 sqft apartment but when they rent
for much more than 1/10th of a 800 sqft apartment, it's very hard to justify
the compromise.

~~~
inetknght
...unless you don't _make_ the money for that 800sqft apartment

~~~
zxcmx
Being willing to share space almost always ends up cheaper.

A bunch of students, for example, can generally outbid a family with 2 workers
and 3 kids for a large place. And the students have way lower standards
usually. No moral commentary there, just an observation. Fortunately they are
generally not after the same spaces.

IMHO it actually sucks when property owners try to hoover up what I'd call the
"space sharing discount" by renting out rooms on individual leases in a place
where most of the space is shared. The culture (or not) is the thing which
makes that arrangement work, and I don't feel like they should get to monetise
that.

I believe there are an increasing number of startups operating on exactly this
premise though :/

~~~
icebraining
_IMHO it actually sucks when property owners try to hoover up what I 'd call
the "space sharing discount" by renting out rooms on individual leases in a
place where most of the space is shared. The culture (or not) is the thing
which makes that arrangement work, and I don't feel like they should get to
monetise that._

Culture? Nah, if there's a need people will adapt themselves. We rent
individual rooms in a couple of 3-bedroom condos, and it's worked fine even as
tenants rotated over the years.

Also, while we don't "hoover up" the discount (the total of the rents isn't
higher than what we could get renting the whole place), I don't think it'd be
wrong to do so, as the arrangement has extra benefits for the tenants: not
having to find people to share, not having to worry about an increase on their
rent if someone decides to leave or feel guilty about leaving the others with
a higher rent, not having to get utility/internet contracts in their name,
etc.

------
flavio81
TL;DW:

EDIT: this refers to the video linked by another poster:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYVJbupG3Xg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYVJbupG3Xg)

House is 8m2, but it is a two level house so the bedroom is not taking up the
ground space. She, apparently, lives alone.

She lives in tokyo. 2016 _minimum_ wage in Tokyo has been set to 932 JPY. For
a 148 hour month, that's 137,936 JPY that currently means $1252 USD.

Her house costs her about USD $600/mo. So that's about 48% of minimum monthly
wage. Assuming she is getting minimum wage, doesn't sound bad at all.

Now here's the deal: in my city the minimum wage is 850 PEN. 48% of that, is
USD $123. With $123 here you couldn't afford to live alone renting any kind of
house or apartment. You would have to rent a room. That is, no kitchen/washing
machine/ clothesline, etc. And a very tiny one at that OR a well-sized one but
located in a rather ugly part of the city. (Ugly as in, trash outside
everyday, being robbed at gunpoint at night, etc.)

So I guess all is fine in Tokyo.

------
Hates_
Reminds me of this set of overhead photos of cramped rooms in Hong Kong:
[https://petapixel.com/2013/02/19/cramped-apartments-in-
hong-...](https://petapixel.com/2013/02/19/cramped-apartments-in-hong-kong-
shot-from-directly-above/)

~~~
Hasknewbie
Sadly, Hong Kong can be way worse than these already super-cramped one-room
apartments.

The apartments in your link are either tiny 1960s social housing, or
subdivided apartments. With the ever-increasing rent, some of these have since
then been subdivided further into single beds (a.k.a 'cages' or 'coffins',
depending on how they're sealed):

[https://www.theguardian.com/cities/gallery/2017/jun/07/boxed...](https://www.theguardian.com/cities/gallery/2017/jun/07/boxed-
life-inside-hong-kong-coffin-cubicles-cage-homes-in-pictures)

------
firmgently
I gave up my flat and moved into a caravan. It's about 75 sq ft and less than
6ft high. Within that is a kitchen (I cook all my own meals, bake bread etc.
despite only having gas burners and grill) and a tiny wetroom/bathroom which I
built myself. I live and work from here (I make and sell art and store my A3+
printer which I'll be using again soon). 27" monitor, spare bed, work area..

I do my laundry by hand in a bucket. My water tap is operated by a foot pump
lol. I do a tiny bit of web work (used to be an Actionscript dev but that
career died with Flash, the remaining jobs in that tech don't appeal to me and
my CV has such a huge chasm in it now that my professional programming life
seems to be over). I'm incredibly poor financially but life is challenging and
interesting, the miniature home suits me fine and it's really good fun
optimising the space.. just requires an adaptable mindset!

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valuearb
The US is now so crowded that there is only 3.5 million square feet per
person.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
For most of that, though, the roof leaks...

(That is: You're talking about the whole country, not about the space inside
buildings. Most of your 3.5 million square feet is outdoors.)

~~~
valuearb
And some is covered with water. Assume a third is unusable, at an average
family size of 3 people that would still be nearly 7 million square feet each.

------
yodsanklai
I don't think small space is an issue by itself. It's very manageable if the
building has good facilities (shared bathrooms, washing machines) and if you
can easily eat outside. More problematic would be noisy environment or lack of
window.

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apricot13
I've been decluttering a lot over the past year and "Stop putting things
away." is one of the things that took me the longest to get my head around but
when I got used to it it made my life so much easier. Reducing the amount of
effort it takes to get/store an item means you use it more (cleaning products)
but also buy fewer yet nicer things.

Definitely recommend Marie Kondo, both her books take only a few hours to
read. The joy thing, though initially weird makes complete sense once you've
read both books and she insists that everything has a home in the house - if
you don't follow that rule you'll quickly become overwhelmed.

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coldtea
> Living in 80 square feet

So like billions do in the developing world?

~~~
calvinv
or millions living in big cities, in London 100 square feet is pretty common

------
uiri
This is much less impressive with 10 or 11 foot ceilings than with 7 or 8 foot
ceilings.

That said, even with more space, I think that effective use of space is a much
better strategy than upgrading to a larger space. Stuff tends to have a
quality to it that is similar to Parkinson's law - it takes up the space
allotted to it. The authors techniques could still be useful in an 8000 sq ft
mansion.

------
throwanem
The desk I built myself last month is a quarter the area of the room
described, which actually just about matches what I could expect to get for
the same rent that gets me a ~600sf apartment here in Baltimore. So I guess
I'm never moving to New York!

The techniques described here are still useful, though. I've found the method
of disposing of old clothes to generalize: if you have stuff you never use,
put it in a box, write on the lid what's in it, and stuff it in an odd corner
of a closet or somewhere else out of the way. If it's still untouched in a
year, or when you find you need the space, take it to Goodwill.

Wall-mounted shelves are indeed a marvel. They're easy to build from lumber
with hand tools, if you've got the space to do it; it takes time, but you can
size them precisely to fit the space where you mean to put them, and for
shelves of any size it's it's cheaper in the end than buying the prebuilt
sort.

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peter303
I just stayed in a 8 x 5 sqft NYC hotel room (The Jane). The bed fills over
half of it. It has a 3 foot storage place below the bed and shelf above. The
wall away from the bed has 6 x 5 ft mirror making the room seem twice as
large. It also has a flat screen TV at foot of bed and 2x 5 window. The walls
were thick enough you really couldnt hearbthe neighbors except when closing
the door.

What is amazing is that some of the same size rooms have a second bunked bed
instead of the shelf. I guess you have to take turns using the stand up space.

~~~
robotresearcher
> 8 x 5 sqft

That's 40 ft^4. The extra dimension must be handy for storing luggage :)

------
JusticeJuice
I just finished a book on this topic. Its a collection of case studies on
small, well designed, incredibly liveable homes, I highly suggest it.

[https://www.amazon.com/Small-Homes-Grand-Living-
Interior/dp/...](https://www.amazon.com/Small-Homes-Grand-Living-
Interior/dp/3899556984)

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ctdonath
There's the popular "tiny house" movement in the USA - building complete homes
on just 100 square feet.

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miguelrochefort
Why can't we find 80 square feet apartments for ~$300 in the USA/Canada?

~~~
stan_rogers
In Canada, look for "rooming house". In parts of the States, it would be an
"SRO". They're often paid for weekly rather than monthly.

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justforFranz
I love how this story fits well into our currently economic ideology of vast
wealth inequality, evaporating pensions, vanishing healthcare, crumbling
infrastructure, labor with no pricing power, etc.

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timwaagh
my 'bedroom' is about four sq m. meaning it just about fits my bed. i share
the rest of my appartment with others, but its still my appartment, so i can
store my stuff wherever i want.

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throwawaeroi894
How _actually_ living in 80 ft^2 looks (Tokyo).

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYVJbupG3Xg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYVJbupG3Xg)

~~~
adjkant
This video is about 20x more interesting than the article, which I think is
just getting votes because HN always upvotes anything about living in tiny
spaces, even though there no insight or interest in this one.

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majewsky
For those of us with useful units: 80 feet^2 = 7.43 m^2

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antisthenes
As someone who has trouble throwing things out, taking a picture of it to
retain the sentimental value has been a huge help.

------
j7ake
how do you have friends or visitors come over? or do you meet up at public
places?

~~~
wingerlang
I lived for a few months in probably 30-40 square feet (2-3m^2), basically a
hotel room with nothing but a bed and a window. Meeting up with friends was
almost always out in public, except for some movie session every now and then
in the room.

I didn't really mind it, but I probably won't ever go below my current 400sqft
anytime soon.

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blacktulip
[2010] should be added to title.

------
dopik11
det spiller bare

