
Apple Is Said to Be Rethinking Strategy on Self-Driving Cars - glhaynes
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/10/technology/apple-is-said-to-be-rethinking-strategy-on-self-driving-cars.html
======
Jerry2
This was obviously a controlled leak by Apple... it was released in after-
hours on a Friday and was leaked to an Apple friendly journalist.

I think the scale of this downsizing is being underestimated. I think Apple
car is dead.

~~~
revelation
It's dead? But it hadn't even begun yet!

This is the Apple of 2016, leaking that it's killing moonshot projects it
didn't ever announce. Meanwhile you can't buy a MacBook with a '16 processor..

~~~
openingceremony
The '16 processor is more Intel's fault than anything with late delivery on
Kabylake, if new Mac's are announced at the rumoured October event I would
assume they are Skylake.

------
IBM
This report refers to the earlier Bloomberg report but basically contradicts
it [1]. In that report they said the strategy was shifting towards making the
underlying tech for self-driving rather than a car, but that never made any
sense to me.

The value in the business to Apple will be in the design, interior, and
performance of the vehicle. Self-driving technology is going to be a
commodity; buyers are certainly not going to be evaluating the self-driving
capabilities when deciding which car to buy. The most important part is making
a nice car, the self-driving tech is an implementation detail (and it will be
like deciding whether to use Bluetooth and/or Wi-Fi for a wireless protocol
like AirPlay). Many companies are working on self-driving tech, including Uber
which Apple is indirectly an investor in now (and won't be competing with each
other, like Google). There will be plenty of time to work on it internally,
license/buy it or collaborate with someone like Uber. Their development
efforts should be focused on everything else (like manufacturing processes to
enable scale and avoid Tesla's problems), that's what their business will
really be about.

[1] [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-28/apple-
taps...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-28/apple-taps-
blackberry-talent-as-car-project-takes-software-turn)

~~~
Donwangugi
This. Apple is already a luxury brand and has the money to make what Tesla
cannot: a truly no-compromise electric car. Teslas, while perhaps faster than
traditional ICE vehicles, have comparably less luxurious interiors.
Additionally, Apple has such brand power that they could release a car
tomorrow and have a guaranteed level of sales. Few companies would have the
cash, expertise and brand value to develop such a product.

~~~
vvanders
I have to say that's the first time I've heard a Tesla called a compromised
electric car.

~~~
dsacco
Seriously. No amount of design savvy and fandom is going to allow Apple to
displace Tesla's core competency that easily.

The Model S is the best performing electric car on the market. It is a luxury
vehicle with nearly every modern accommodation for comfort, the ability to
accelerate to 60 mph in as little as 2.5 seconds and well over 200 miles to a
single charge.

I can't even conceive of how someone could say _Apple_ is the company to make
a _no compromises_ car to beat Tesla with a straight face. I can't even see a
compromise.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Several of the Model S features (enhanced unibody strength due to friction
stir welding, the fuse that enables Ludicrous mode) are enabled by tech
sharing from SpaceX. This is not something Apple (or any non-integrated
manufacturer really) can easily replicate.

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traskjd
The new strategy should be: Tesla is "Apple Cool" already, and at the head of
the pack. Apple has ungodly amounts of cash kicking around and could easily
(at least cash wise), buy Tesla.

This feels like an obvious "buy don't build" scenario.

~~~
ejcx
I feel like this would work well but both parties would never agree.

Elon gets ungodly amounts of money and mass production experience to execute
his vision. Apple gets to make a ton of money if it works out.

But would Elon join one of the big cos when he thinks he could be a big co? I
don't think so?

~~~
traskjd
That's why I said "(at least cash wise)" :-)

Having Elon focus on SpaceX would be a win IMO. I'm not sure when you're
talking $20bn+ acquisitions that the founder/CEO would stick around beyond
being an adviser.

~~~
Strom
There are also other new things that Elon has mentioned he would likely do
after Tesla, with building an example hyperloop being one.

------
jagger27
To me it doesn't seem likely that Apple can do to the car what they did to the
smartphone. It is such a strange "me too" move that it's almost as if a big
shareholder or some exec saw one of those Apple stickers in a car's rear
window and decided it would look better as a real badge. Apple's value add
isn't immediately clear, that's for sure.

~~~
avn2109
Apple's value add is the same as it has been since the very first iPod: User
Experience. Apple is a UX company; they've been successful because everything
they did was laser focussed on the UX.

Right now buying and operating a car kinda sucks in a lot of ways [0] because
GM doesn't have anyone whose job it is to subordinate _all_ business functions
to UX. Steve Jobs did that at Apple and maybe today somebody is still carrying
the torch. The fact that Apple has a culture of design and implementation
oriented around UX is the value add.

Imagine the process of purchasing and repairing your car feeling like an Apple
store. Imagine Jony Ive designing the fit and finish of the car hardware,
inside and out. Imagine a center-console human interface that was designed by
someone with taste [1]. All of this is going to be packaged seamlessly with
that beautiful attention to detail in subsystems integration that makes my
grandma want an iPad, just because it feels amazing, even though it does
literally nothing useful.

Obligatory disclaimer: For political reasons I strongly disagree with Apple's
walled garden philosophy, and it makes me _so angry_ that the best laptops
available run closed source OS's natively. But I have to admit that
Cupertino's hardware, shopping process, and unboxing experience is beautifully
designed, and that their focus on UX does lead to a nice experience if you
stay within their ecosystem.

[0] e.g. [http://blog.dilbert.com/post/147352433956/how-not-to-buy-
a-c...](http://blog.dilbert.com/post/147352433956/how-not-to-buy-a-chevy-
truck) but really just talk to anyone who has been near a dealership or repair
shop

[1] We have been stuck in the center console design dark ages for decades,
even in luxury automotive.

~~~
codethief
> and unboxing experience

I'm trying to imagine what the unboxing experience of an Apple car would be
like. :-)

~~~
avn2109
One thing is certain: it will not look anything like going to a Toyota
dealership.

~~~
Chronic9q
Or Tesla dealership, for that matter.

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grogenaut
I can't wait till Porsche makes their self driving vehicle: \- Porsche Self
Driving: there's no substitute to getting there faster \- Optimum signaling
(lying) to other cars about size \- Pre-emptive lane changes to get other cars
to yield to it ... etc

Soeone is going to game the system and make cars that if not advertised to,
known to be bad actors in that they'll take advantage of others to move faster
through traffic. Especially if one of the favorite fantasy's, swarm driving
comes true.

Someone is also going to realize if they pulse their sensors in a certain way
they can get other cars to move, slow down, speed, up, etc that will be to
their advantage.

Self driving cars aren't going to be some communist utopia where everyone gets
there equally, it's going to be Darwinian capitalist just like everythign
else. I mean if the car drives you what does any nice car have to
differentiate itself from any other than the nicest tv, leather, etc. You
might as well ride in an RV at that point. Who cares if your car is fast and
sweet like a tesla? if everything is self driving in a utopia you can't
acutally make use of that. It's about as useful as the top end speed of a
ferrari in manhattan.

~~~
pveierland
I think this will go differently. When people are removed from the task of
driving their focus will instead be on reading, sleeping, conversing etc,
instead of insisting that they should pass every other vehicle. Traffic runs
smoother when cars cooperate well, so there is a shared incentive for good
behavior.

Traffic laws and regulations will become more precise in general, and
especially with regards to cooperation between vehicles. Just as pollution is
tested for today's cars, self-driving cars will be tested both in software and
physical environments by regulatory agencies to verify that they behave within
limits and cooperate correctly with other vehicles in the environment.

> Someone is also going to realize if they pulse their sensors in a certain
> way they can get other cars to move, slow down, speed, up, etc that will be
> to their advantage.

When requirements for self-driving behavior and cooperation are more precisely
described, the data logged from real situations will make it far easier than
today to identify bad actors after the fact. As long as there are manual cars
and autonomous cars, some human drivers may find it amusing to exploit the
carefulness of the autonomous vehicles. However if such exploits becomes
problematic, the data available from the autonomous vehicles will make it easy
to fine the offending drivers.

~~~
agumonkey
Synchronized car and traffic signs is such a bliss. When you hit long avenues
with just the adequate amount of cars at the right timing, you smoothly roll
through it in no time, at 30mph; I take great pleasure in this. I wish cities
tried to find more ways to ensure that. Maybe in these days of Uber like data
sharing it might be worth thinking.

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eddieh
I'm a lifelong Apple fan. I own almost everything they sell, but I don't want
an Apple car. Not even a little bit. I'm not even curious to see what they do.
I just am not interested. With phones it was obvious that Apple could improve
them. TV and smartwatches were obvious too. I fail to see how Apple's
expertise can translate from personal electronics to something like a car. I'm
not even interested in what the other smartcar people are up to. Cars are
boring and should be completely utilitarian. I'd rather not even own a car.

~~~
kylec

        Cars are boring and should be completely utilitarian. I'd rather not even own a car.
    

You should have started your comment with this. I'd imagine that if you
thought that phones are boring and completely utilitarian that you wouldn't be
interested in the iPhone either.

~~~
eddieh
Phones are boring and utilitarian too. The difference is I used my pre-iPhones
and could nitpick about the UI and other aspects to no end. I get in my car
and the only thing I nitpick is the shit integration with my iPhone, but I
don't have a CarPlay stereo yet. Literally every other aspect of my car can't
be improved. I see a lot of things that could regress in the name of advancing
technology, but if I wanted that, I'd probably want a Tesla.

------
kctess5
I understand Apples standard secrecy policies, but in developing a self
driving car it feels highly counter-productive. It's hard to test software and
gather data in the real world while simultaneously keeping everything under
wraps.

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Animats
Anybody who was laid off want to talk about what Apple was doing?

They had a thousand people on this. Doing what?

~~~
draw_down
Not sure what the upside would be there. I'd dummy up too.

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Roritharr
In my last comment towards the Apple Car i talked about it being the best out
of a bunch of bad choices when it comes to capital intensive businesses (
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12161248](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12161248)
) .

This seems to me like the recognition of the fact that its not fun competing
in the space where the large margins are to be found in the services and
components, less in the assembly and sales aspect.

------
perseusprime11
What was Apple planning to bring to self-driving cars that Tesla cannot or
other car companies cannot bring? I struggle to understand the unique
capabilities that Apple would have brought to bear. Was this a moonshot
project? or Was it just something to get back at Tesla?

------
cclements
I really think companies like Apple and Google can execute like nobodies
business in the car market, but then I see how uniformly terrible software
made by car companies is, and wonder if they didn't think the same...

Here's to hoping they knock it out.

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awqrre
Who would want an Apple-controlled car? probably lots of people but not me...

~~~
ams6110
Who would want a software controlled car? Probably lots of people but not me.
I'm keeping my completely mechanical, manual shift cars as long as I can.

~~~
beachstartup
you still run a carburetor?

~~~
asimuvPR
I dont run one now but will soon. Old tech can still be fast.

~~~
lostlogin
It really isn't usually - a top 60s sports car is generally bested by pretty
much any modern car in terms of speed, reliability, comfort etc. But noise,
smell and style matter and older cars have that. Then the bill arrives and
depression sets in.

------
denzell
It's hard to see what compelling offering they could bring having started so
late in the game, considering what the pioneers like Google have been doing.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
Rewind to December 2006 and I could just as easily imagine someone saying the
same about smartphones.

It's early days in self-driving cars, and Apple has a lot of talent, a ton of
cash, and (generally) a huge amount of desire to nail the user experience in
ways other companies cannot or will not. Clearly their project is experiencing
issues, but I wouldn't count them out.

~~~
XorNot
Apple had the iPod line. The evolution to smartphone was pretty obvious. Apple
have 0 things which are cars at the moment.

It's also not clear they understand the market or sales environment at all.

~~~
cstejerean
It wasn't obvious at all. The leap from the iPod of the time to the first
iPhone was massive. If it was so obvious it wouldn't have caught the entire
industry off guard. Apple changed the entire industry with the announcement of
the iPhone. If it was obvious to you I hope you bought massive amounts of
Apple stock back in '06.

~~~
icebraining
When even CNN makes a big feature article about it more than two years before,
it's kinda obvious:
[http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2...](http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2005/04/01/8256060/)

(They even guessed the name)

------
bsbechtel
Maybe Apple realized they couldn't one day remove the steering wheel and
expect people to still buy Apple cars.

~~~
gnarbarian
I figured they're backing out because they couldn't convince the government to
switch to the proprietary Apple iroads standard which are 3x the price, and
incompatible with every other car.

------
nickhalfasleep
Now I have to wait a bit longer to say: "Siri, take the wheel!".

------
ansy
Why does Apple need its cars to be autonomous to do well in this space? There
are plenty of people who would drive an Apple electric car even if it doesn't
drive itself.

And since when was Apple any good at building the platform for someone else's
hardware? Motorola ROKR E1? Apple CarPlay?

~~~
adamnemecek
> There are plenty of people who would drive an Apple electric car even if it
> doesn't drive itself.

I don't think that that's true.

~~~
ansy
Because so few non-autonomous cars are sold per year?

~~~
adamnemecek
We are talking about theoretically?

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karma_vaccum123
Do you know what it takes to admit that you are late to the game?

Courage.

~~~
lostlogin
This might be the most sarcastic thing I've ever read. Well done.

------
sunstone
Well this is Apple's first big new product foray in the post Jobs era and it's
flopped.

It's flopped for a reason Jobs would never tolerate, a lack of a unique vision
that focuses on a consumers simple human need for a product that requires an
immense but reachable extension of current technologies.

This is not a good sign for Apple. It's been several years and there's been
nothing innovative big or small out of the behemoth. Elon Musk has run off
with Jobs' mantle and Apple is left dithering on a mountain of cash. Now
Amazon's Echo/Alexa is a product that would have had Jobs smiling.

At least that's how it looks to me though I would be happy to be proved wrong.

~~~
Longhanks
There is not even one single proof of what Apple even tried to do. Stop
assuming they failed. You're not an insider. These are all just rumors.

~~~
agumonkey
And Apple has been doing product research for years even in early years, with
phones and other desk devices that never saw the light of day. Apple has cash,
they tried something, old news.

