
Solid Electrolyte Paves the Way for Batteries with Almost Indefinite Lifetimes - sprucely
http://scitechdaily.com/solid-electrolyte-paves-the-way-for-rechargeable-batteries-with-almost-indefinite-lifetimes/
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mnw21cam
Article seems to be a little confused about what "power density" means, as
opposed to "energy density". From the article: "Such batteries provide a 20 to
30 percent improvement in power density — with a corresponding increase in how
long a battery of a given size could power a phone, a computer, or a car." No
- a 20 to 30 percent greater power density means that you can drain the
battery 20 to 30 percent faster by drawing more power. It doesn't mean that
there is 20 to 30 percent more energy to draw out.

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JoeAltmaier
Further, it takes a doubling in capacity/current to be worth commercializing.
Nobody wants to re-tool for 20%.

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asb
A significant increase in the lifetime (number of discharge cycles is
compelling though). Plus I'm sure if the technology is commercialised, those
with vested interests will be keen to lobby that solid-state batteries are
required in electric vehicles due to the claimed safety benefits.

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JoeAltmaier
Certainly legislation and regulation will be big market shapers. I personally
think we should jump on every improvement, because it benefits society. But
the cost is currently born by the factory owners, and they selfishly want to
depreciate everything out before retooling.

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duaneb
I don't think it's as grim as you are making it out to be. Especially for
companies like Tesla and apple, the use of the product is directly tied to the
battery. I just think it is a difficult problem.

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JoeAltmaier
My niece is in this space (battery research/startups). They keep failing, even
with 20% improvements in whatever, because nobody will retool. So yes, that's
about how grim it is.

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paulajohnson
Reading the paper, they don't even have an actual material. This is a
theoretical result about the kind of material that ought to work. Which is a
step forwards, but not a breakthrough.

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rm_-rf_slash
Reminds me of when my dad and his colleagues researched a radical new
technique to create solar sells at minuscule costs. In the end the physics
proved the hypothesis would never work, which was like putting a sign at the
start of a road labeled "DEAD END." No sense getting our hopes up until the
science backs up the theory.

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ams6110
Yet another fantastic battery technology claim that you'll probably never hear
about again.

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rebootthesystem
Well, what we need to spark a revolution on many fronts is simple:

    
    
        Half the volume
        Twice the energy
    

We had something like that happen when going from NiCd to LiPo chemistry. On
one of my high performance gliders I went from a massive, heavy 27 cell NiCd
pack to a 6 cell LiPo pack that's easily half the volume and probably half the
weight, if not less. And the LiPo pack can easily deliver 200
"anytime/anywhere" Amps. Yes, the thing goes up vertically like a rocket.
Motor only runs for 10 seconds, if that.

I'm not a chemist but I think the only way to achieve this half/double
evolutionary step is with chemistry, not structure (as in, making layers
smaller). Lithium is nasty stuff. Part of me hopes we can bring something like
carbon nanotube-based supercapacitors to this level of performance and
radically change electrical energy storage without going to nasty chemistry.
It would almost feel "zen" to use carbon for efficient energy storage.

Yes, there's a bit of sarcasm there in calling it "simple", because it isn't
at all.

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frankus
I suspect the only chemistries that will support that kind of improvement are
air-breathing cells (vanadium boride-air has a specific energy that narrowly
beats gasoline).

Unfortunately they can't be recharged in-situ, so they probably will be
limited to applications where that kind of energy density is really necessary
(e.g. airliners).

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JosephRedfern
Purely semantic... but how can a duration be "almost indefinite"?

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nkrisc
I would take that to mean: a duration so long that for all practical
applications and uses it might as well be indefinite.

But yes, it's either definite or it's indefinite, there's truly no "almost."

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njharman
Indefinite doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

Here's some synonyms to help you out; vague, ill-defined, unclear, imprecise,
inexact, loose, general, nebulous, fuzzy, hazy, obscure, ambiguous, equivocal,
indeterminate, unspecified, unlimited, unrestricted, undecided, undetermined,
undefined, unfixed, unsettled, unknown, uncertain.

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Retra
And here's an actual definition of the word (not a list of other useful,
related words for use in a broader context:)

 _in·def·i·nite_

adjective

lasting for an unknown or unstated length of time.

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chiph
The focus seems to be on handheld devices (phones, tablets, etc). But what if
they went big to start, looking at traditional deep-cycle applications. Wet-
cell batteries (like on golf carts) need regular topping-up with distilled
water. AGM batteries remove that requirement and can be discharged deeper
without damage, but still have liquid electrolyte in them. RV owners are now
experimenting with LiFePo chemistry batteries, but the price is objectionable.
I think there's a potential sweet-spot in there.

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AstroJetson
Yes, boat and RV owners would love deep discharge battery packs that have
longer lives. Wet-cell is about a 48 month life, the AGM's a little better. A
full set replacement for a large RV is about $2K, so getting another year or
two is a big deal.

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bmir-alum-007
This and supercapacitors blur the "lines" of technologies of batteries and
capacitors. I hope they can boost the power greater than li-po.

Btw: Here's a _capacitor_ lifetime calculator with equations.

[http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/tech-center/life-
calculator...](http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/tech-center/life-
calculators.aspx)

Note: Electrolytic capacitors dry out, frequently rendering power supplies and
other electronics unusable in a decade or three but they're easily replaced w/
soldiering.

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outworlder
> Note: Electrolytic capacitors dry out, frequently rendering power supplies
> and other electronics unusable in a decade or three but they're easily
> replaced w/ soldiering.

When they don't take half of the circuitry with them when they go, of course.
The capacitors in my last PSU failed so spectacularly that security personnel
came to investigate, thinking there were gunshots.

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bmir-alum-007
Caps blow by thermal runaway when they get too old (far out of spec) or are
run out of spec.

Was repair attempted it or was it just thrown away? Things can look cooked,
but they're often easily repairable. Far too often, most consumers are
completely clueless, choosing instead to fix it by going to the store and
filling the landfill needlessly because they don't care about wasting
resources.

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mtgx
Multiple companies seem to be researching solid-state batteries right now,
including Google and Apple. Some startups have even promised commercialization
within a couple of years (but we know how those promises usually go). My guess
is we'll start seeing them within 5-10 years, just around the time EVs will go
mainstream.

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Osmium
> Some startups have even promised commercialization within a couple of years
> (but we know how those promises usually go).

These are exceptionally difficult problems for a start-up to tackle (unless
they've had a _genuine_ 'eureka!' moment). It just requires too much up-front
capital costs and intensive R&D. Even if you have the science right, scaling
it up to production is a huge engineering challenge. Hope you're right about
the 5-10 year estimate though.

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Gibbon1
That's true, there is low possibility that any particular line of research
will pan out. Usually what happens is various groups each figure out bits of
the puzzle and then everyone cross licenses the resulting solution.

I remember 10-15 years ago same rough groups were working very hard on
cathodes for lithium batteries based on iron vs cobalt. Because cobalt is
spensive and cobalt based cathodes suffer from thermal runaway. They tried all
sorts of ways to make iron based cathodes that were conductive enough. Today
lithium iron phosphate batteries are standard off the shelf consumer items.

Batteries are hard because material science is hard.

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ridgeguy
For anyone interested in this topic, a company that seems fairly far along in
developing a commercial solid electrolyte lithium battery is Sakti3. Of the
higher-performance battery developers that I follow, they seem closest to
commercial sales.

[http://sakti3.com](http://sakti3.com)

