
What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school? - tokenadult
http://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2015/04/09/what-like-poor-ivy-league-school/xPtql5uzDb6r9AUFER8R0O/story.html
======
stegosaurus
I attended an elite UK university having had a poor upbringing. This article
reads painfully to me. I don't have the words to describe why, but I can try.

The closest I can come is to say that this idea of inclusiveness is terminally
broken. It's a sort of bandage over a huge chasm of differences.

For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage.
Change the accent, the clothes, the pop culture references, the 'back home...'
stories. Avoid the discussions about parents. The list goes on.

My transition into adulthood at present is essentially a game of throwing away
my connections to that past. Not intentionally, but because living a double
life is just too difficult. Visiting my hometown I feel like more of a tourist
each time.

Money is a huge divider, the gulf between the working class and middle classes
in this regard is enormous.

I am hardwired to assume that people cannot afford anything. My basic instinct
is to design activities that are free.

Wealthier people do not always appreciate this. They might want to go and do
something more expensive - and why not? They can.

Friendship groups.

I could waffle on seemingly forever but words can't really express how odd I
find all of this.

Different species...

~~~
vcxzxcv
Thanks for this post. I'm debating applying to a state University right now.
Coming from a poor background (and still being poor) I find it hard to relate
to a lot of my peers. You speak of "dropping baggage", and for me, this is
next to impossible because of my poor dental health. As soon as I open my
mouth people assume I must be some meth head. My mom has dementia and can
barely take care of her self and my dad is struggling with COPD. I'm not going
to go further into my home life because I'm not looking for pity.

I'm one the best math students at my current school and calculus is fun for
me. I'm the only person I know that knows how to program, none of the other
students I've met are interested in computers at all.

The students that are performing at the same level as I am seem (to me) to be
"elites". I find my self becoming more and more cynical each day listening to
complaints about having an old model of iPhone or "having to go to Paris with
dad" (someone really said this), when all I have is a flip phone and I've
never ridden on a plane.

I told my self a few years ago I was going to learn to program because it
seemed to be something that anyone could do (as long as you have a computer
and internet access), seemed to be growing, and seemed to be high paying. I've
gotten pretty good, but I still have a ways to go.

Now I'm at the point where I can leave my disabled parents for school and let
my teeth continue to decay and deal with that social stigma, or I can get a
job doing tech support and hopefully help my situation a little faster.

We'll see..

~~~
dpiers
I was in your situation 8 years ago. I decided to furlough my entrepreneurial
endeavors and learn to code so I could get a high paying job with benefits and
afford to get my teeth fixed. I went to a state school, hustled my way into
the game industry and later the startup world, and have gotten +$40k in dental
work done over the last 4 years.

It's not always easy, but if you're smart and work hard, it gets better. If I
could have given myself advice back then, I would've told myself not to be
afraid of medical loans or dental schools. I've had ~22k in work done at a
really nice dental school in SF that would have cost +50k at private practice.
The sooner you get in there, the less it will cost in the long run (trust me).

Also, regardless of the current state of your teeth, every day is still a
battle for your oral health. Brush after meals and floss regularly. Email me
(link in profile) and I'll hook you up with a Sonicare toothbrush.

~~~
vcxzxcv
Thanks for the offer! I actually was able to buy a pretty nice electric
toothbrush a little while ago with a coupon I found online.

------
lordnacho
I would caution against too much class consciousness.

My parents came to the west in a boat, much like the ones that are sinking
every day in the med. They scraped together a living and tuition fees running
Chinese food joints.

When I arrived in Oxford, I did realise there were some interesting characters
around. One guy with a posh accent stuck waved his chequebook outside his room
during a tuition fee demonstration, offering to pay for everyone's tuition if
he could just be allowed some peace. There are dudes walking the street in top
hats. There are kids with sports cars.

But why should you feel alienated from them? You can be friends with the ones
who want to be. They are just as curious about you. Some of them actually feel
a bit guilty about having ridden into a top uni on their fathers' coattails.
There's also people who've had it worse than you. One friend actually fled
from shelling, and was lucky to miss a boat that got sunk by helicopters.

When you meet people, start with what you have in common. You're all young,
and academically gifted. You're in the same place, you speak the same
language.

~~~
cperciva
_When I arrived in Oxford, I did realise there were some interesting
characters around. One guy with a posh accent stuck waved his chequebook
outside his room during a tuition fee demonstration, offering to pay for
everyone 's tuition if he could just be allowed some peace. There are dudes
walking the street in top hats. There are kids with sports cars._

When were you in Oxford? In my day I never saw any top hats, barring the
occasional actor; and even the richest kids didn't have cars, because (a)
there was nowhere to park them, and (b) you could walk faster than you could
drive anywhere.

~~~
lordnacho
99 to 03. You had to know which kids had the cars. There's not much in the way
of parking, but now and again you'd see a flash car pull up outside a college.

Top hats are an eccentric thing. Kids did it to get mentioned on HN years
later.

~~~
cperciva
Well, our time in Oxford overlapped (I was there 2001-05)... I guess you were
just more observant than me. ;-)

I did see some fancy cars, but they were always driven by college fellows or
other "adults" \-- never anyone of student age.

~~~
lordnacho
There was one particular Rolls driven by a prof who'd written THE book on
Physical Chemistry, I remember seeing that quite often.

Did you not think people wore some strange clothes? I was back last week and
saw loads of kids in suits. These days it just screams "first day at work".

~~~
cperciva
There were always some students wearing sub fusc, but that hardly qualifies...

~~~
gaius
You can always spot an Oxford man... Because he'll tell you :-p

~~~
cperciva
I find that a college scarf is a far more effective identification symbol.

~~~
gaius
The fake MAs are a dead giveaway too

------
ChuckMcM
I don't think this is limited to schools. All through life you will find that
there are people with more, or fewer, resources than you have and interactions
may be adversely affected by that.

The example of going out to dinner and then catching a movie is a good one. In
a mid to large sized metropolitan area that is an expenditure of $40 - $100
(depending) and that can represent anywhere from .1% to 10% of a person's take
home pay. So people gravitate to socializing with folks who have the same sort
of budget for recreational expenses.

And it can get even weirder when you're wildly different in available
resources. Consider the following illustrative example

Bob is a very high net worth individual, he owns an interest in a Gulfstream
jet. While folks are hanging out they hear about a restaurant in Santa Fe
(over 1,000 miles away) that is really great. Bob thinks it would be a great
place to go for dinner. So he invites folks to dinner, when they show up
everyone gets on the plane and flys to Santa Fe and eats at this restaurant
which has been reserved (entirely) for this dinner.

Bob is trying to be friendly and help everyone share the experience of a
restaurant they were just talking about. Except that everyone on the plane
that wasn't extremely wealthy felt really weird about the whole experience.
(surreal might be better).

So its easy to be friends with Bob, he's a nice guy, but it is hard to "hang
out" with Bob as his idea of a reasonable idea of what to do next, can
sometimes collide with your idea of reality.

That goes all the way down to things like skiing (fun, but expensive to do for
the day).

To avoid that you need communities of people with similar resource levels, and
yes this means that things like the 1st generation outreach program mentioned
in the article will collect all of the 'poor people' together, but it gives
them a social structure to start from. And if they mix with the the 'not quite
so poor' people they can start to move through the variations in strata. Once
they graduate they are very likely to be at least part of the "middle" and
their kids the "upper middle".

~~~
kelukelugames
My boss's boss's boss once tried to socialize with me by asking what kind of
boat I owned.

~~~
ChuckMcM
perfect example!

------
protomyth
"Disadvantaged students are accustomed to doing everything on their own
because they rarely have parents educated enough to help them with things like
homework or college applications, so they may be less likely to go to a
writing center or ask a professor for extra help."

The author missed the much larger problem in this statement. The school system
these students are from are often poor with incompetent staff[1]. The
competent staff are mostly dealing with students with problems and leaving the
bright students to look after themselves. Resource allocation is a harsh
mistress.

1) as an example, $2,000 a year (1988 USD) down the tube because a school
official couldn't be bothered to mail a letter.

------
cperciva
This very much reminds me of my time in Oxford. I was there on a Commonwealth
scholarship (referred to by many at the time as "Rhodes light") which paid for
my tuition plus about £550/month of living expenses; this was enough to keep
me alive, but it certainly wasn't generous.

My friends were very obviously split into two groups -- poorer students from
state schools who were first-generation Oxbridge attendees, and rich students
from public (UK) or private (US) schools whose parents had been at Oxbridge or
Ivy universities. Academically, I fit in well with the wealthier crowd -- my
parents both have Oxford degrees and doctorates, and I was there on an
academic scholarship -- but financially I was far closer to the first-
generation students. On one memorable occasion I was invited to join a group
for a weekend skiing in the Alps, and declined when I realized that it would
cost me more than my rent for the month; and while all of my American friends
flew home between terms (and often for long weekends in the middle of term), I
stayed in Oxford over Christmas and Easter because the rent was cheaper than
even the lowest-price plane tickets.

But I can't fault Oxford for any of this: Indeed, the reason these
socioeconomic strata were so obvious is precisely because they're doing a good
job of bringing in students from a wide range of backgrounds. I never saw the
University of my College doing anything which stigmatized or isolated students
based on their background; the stratification was entirely due to the
differences students brought to the university in how they saw the world and
their places in it.

~~~
learnstats2
>but financially I was far closer to the first-generation students

I suggest you have understated your relative wealth.

UK students at Oxford today are entitled to £478/month living expense (in 2015
money), which they get mostly as a student loan, to be repaid.

Taking into account inflation, or looking at the equivalent scholarship today,
I believe you were almost twice as well-off as the typical student from a
poorer background.

[I don't doubt there were students twice as rich again, but I question the
suggestion that you weren't treated generously in this context]

~~~
cperciva
_You may be somewhat under-stating your relative wealth._

I was better off than most of the first-generation students, but not
dramatically so.

 _Students today are entitled to £478 /month living expense (in 2015 money),
which they get mostly as a student loan._

The Oxford University website says that students typically spend between £951
and £1,405 per month on living expenses. When I arrived in Oxford (in 2001) I
was told that students typically spent around £650/month (the scholarship
administrator was very apologetic about the value of the living allowance).

I haven't been in the UK for over a decade, so I'm not familiar with the state
of student financial aid, but from what you've said I suspect that either the
government bursaries/loans have gotten smaller or they were being supplemented
by significant University and College awards.

------
kelukelugames
I'm happy this is here. Anytime affirmative action, race issues, etc is
discussed, someone will always say "it's a class issue! What about poor white
people?" Well, here's an article about that.

------
dba7dba
I was first from my family (poor) to attend a well known PUBLIC university in
US. Like top 5 in US or world, in name recognition. I did not feel like I fit
in.

Many of the kids at this public university just did not get into one of the
ivys but definitely middle/upper-middle class.

Many kids in the school that came from poor families often went to a public
high school where it was easier to get good enough grades to get into the
university. Once they got in though, they were just not prepared for the
rigorous competition to get good grades.

~~~
barry-cotter
There are no public universities in the top 5 in the US. The top three are
Harvard, Yale and Princeton. Stanford is basically comparable. The fifth spot
goes to either MIT or University of Chicago, both also private. That was
pulled out of my ass but I just looked up the USNWR rankings and Berekeley is
20, and is the first public university on the list. The universities I
mentioned form 6 of the top 7, along with Columbia.

~~~
dba7dba
I meant top 5 public school.

------
newpattern
I attended Stanford business school on scholarship. I was brought up in a
middle class household, not poor. I couldn't fit in with the rich kids, many
of whom were sons/daughters of millionaire/billionaires, the bankers and the
consultants. All the students were obsessed with networking and as a "lowly"
engineer pursuing an MBA, my classmates never considered me worth getting to
know. I tried but couldn't really forge any meaningful friendships.I felt like
an outsider all the time. This was in sharp contrast to my experience in
engineering school in India, where the only thing that mattered was how smart
you are, irrespective of who your parents are.

~~~
kelukelugames
Want to hob nob with GSB students? Should have gone to Stanfurd for
engineering.

"Hey you are a programmer? Want to make an app for me?"

~~~
newpattern
Haha, yes. Met a lot of those."I can't code but I have lots of ideas."

------
JoeAltmaier
This resonated with me - a poor farm kid from Iowa going to Stanford. I had my
student loan plus zilch. Other students were off to Hawaii for vacation. Me, I
had to bum a place to stay over breaks when the dorms were closed. I never
asked questions; never used any tutors or talked to a professor; never studied
in groups. It was a lonely life.

~~~
impendia
> I never asked questions; never used any tutors or talked to a professor;

I am a professor (albeit at a non-elite university). How do I persuade
students such as yourself to ask questions, to use tutors, to show up to
office hours, and to talk to me?

~~~
logfromblammo
If a student is struggling and does not use the available resources for
catching up with the rest of the class, it may be for any of several reasons:

\- Asking for help is a display of weakness, and that student has been
conditioned to conceal his or her weaknesses.

\- The student has feelings of inferiority that lead him or her to assume that
they do not deserve additional assistance.

\- The student has given his or her last pennies to the bursar and the
bookseller, is literally living in a van and gleaning the trash to meet
survival needs, and is avoiding peers and professors to conceal this
lifestyle.

\- The student has a job, and the work schedule interferes with your office
hours. You don't pay them to show up, so you lose the conflict.

\- The student is simply unaware that such resources are available in general,
or available to him or her, specifically.

\- The student has adopted compensation strategies to deal with an environment
unsupportive of their goals. Being invisible and anonymous may be one of them.
Wearing a "mask personality" in public may be another.

\- The student is conditioned to believe that no one offers help without
expecting something in return. In some cases, accepting help is actually
dangerous. (Remember how I helped you out with your rent? Good. Hide this gun
for me. You owe me.)

Just use your position of perceived authority, and order them to show up.

If you teach an intro-level class, draw lots, and assign every one of your
students to visit you during your office hours in a specific, scheduled,
10-minute window prior to midterms. This is where you actually teach the
student how to interact with professors outside the classroom. With each
student, talk a little about your class, and a little about anything else.
Make it a pass-fail item on the syllabus. Show up? Get some free course
credit. Don't show? 0 points. (If you really kick ass at this, you can play
"friend matchmaker" and try to coerce your students into befriending and
helping each other.)

Remember, there are no classes in most public high schools on how to "do
college". Those kids are learning it as they go.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Another reason: the student grew up in a rural community, and has rarely dealt
with anyone they don't know and aren't related to, so are congenitally
incapable of approaching a professor unintroduced.

------
letitgo12345
Hmm I went to an Ivy League school.

Maybe it was the company I hung out with but there was never really any talk
of how rich anyone's background was (in fact it was kind of taboo) -- the same
way no one ever talked about what their SAT scores were. It seemed petty.

There were several well off kids in my social circle (though not mega rich or
anything) but there wasn't really any flaunting of wealth. In fact, many of
the well off people I knew tried to save more money than some less well off
people! There were also some poor kids around who people knew about but they
were never really looked down upon.

~~~
taurath
Its more about what you do on spring break, on weekends, when not in class,
that sort of thing. Those who can afford expensive outings naturally drift
away from those who can't.

------
Crito
I am curious whether anybody else has experienced this in professional
settings.

I make as much money as most of my peers at work, but fairly regularly I am
made aware of the fact that my upbringing was less affluent than many of
theirs. They have stories about exotic vacations they went on with their
families, while my stories are about manual labor on farms. On some occasions
somebody has made a crack at the expense of blue-collar workers, but I don't
feel particularly far removed from that life.

~~~
_delirium
I've definitely noticed that, though I think it varies by region and industry
quite a bit. Engineering feels to me a little more "blue-collar" than the tech
industry in its attitudes, even though engineers often don't make any less
money. Some may have to do with where people come from, e.g. in large parts of
engineering, the big "feeder schools" are good but not "elite" public schools:
places like Purdue, Texas A&M, and Ohio State. People who at least sometimes
work on-site in plants might also have more direct contact with blue-collar
workers and feel more part of the same enterprise, though that is a minority
of engineers.

In terms of region, SF, LA, and NYC are just about the worst for being full of
"moneyed family" type attitudes. I lived some years in Indiana and it was far
more tolerable on that front, despite what you might expect from the
respective regions' politics.

~~~
codva
Purdue graduate here, and I think that's a fair assessment. The rich kids
seemed to be Management majors. They just needed a degree so that they could
take over Daddy's company when he retired in a few years.

------
lxe
I came to the U.S. from Eastern Europe when I was 13. My father was an
engineer, and the rather humble entry-level salary was just enough to support
our family of 4. My parents chose to settle in a "middle-class" suburban area
with a great school district, which immediately placed us at the relatively
lowest "class" in the area.

Besides the obvious language barrier being a massive separator for some time,
there were also plenty of instances where "class" came into play. We couldn't
afford to purchase airfare, or to eat out for a while. I felt jealous, or
angry at people who did not immediately understand that I won't receive cash
from grandparents for christmas, or that I won't be able to get the latest
toys and electronics.

Even though it was very hard at first, but I didn't crave community support or
entitlement based on my class or language. I didn't want special treatment,
because I knew that that would just alienate me even more. I wanted
acceptance, just like everyone else who is "different", but instead of
attempting to change people around me to tailor to my needs or feelings, I
guided my own attitude and expectations to accept certain things as they are.
I managed my own social anxiety and didn't expect anyone to tailor to it. I
cultivated my own belonging naturally, without reliance on programs or groups
that attempt to do it artificially. I even refused to take ESL class for a
very long time, fearing that that would socially single me out.

I soon started to socialize and became friends with people of all "classes,"
and I never attempted to place myself in a group based on financial privilege
-- I looked for more important qualities in my friends. Even when I got
jealous or angry at someone's privilege, I understood that it is OK for them
to be more fortunate, and that I shouldn't expect others to walk in my shoes.
I assumed most people, even those that can never fully understand my
situation, are good -- and expected nothing from them. After all, my goal was
to achieve what they have, and I expected myself to someday enjoy the same
privileges.

------
iaw
The most logistically frustrating part of the ordeal: "Dining halls at some
schools, for example, close for spring break, though some students can’t
afford to leave campus."

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Even during the semester, they didn't serve on Sunday. Presumably because you
were all out with friends, eating at a pub or whatever. I just didn't eat on
Sunday night.

~~~
cperciva
Huh, I had completely forgotten about that. I had the same experience in
Oxford -- my college served breakfast/lunch/dinner 6 days a week, but on
Sunday there was just a brunch, and most weeks I ended up not eating dinner on
Sunday.

~~~
lordnacho
Which college were you at? We had one day a week without food at Corpus, and I
just found a couple of friends to cook with.

~~~
cperciva
Wadham.

------
paltman
I attended an Ivy (Penn). Most of my friends were far from wealthy. Many from
what most in the US would consider poor backgrounds. It's hard for me to speak
on their behalf here, but it's quite obvious seeing them now how radically
their lives have changed.

Here is a recent story that was fairly typical in my experience :
[http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2423782-left-
parentless-a...](http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2423782-left-parentless-
and-homeless-harvard-stars-amazing-journey-may-lead-to-the-nfl)

It seems that there are those who pursue greatness and success and use their
challenges and circumstances as motivation to do better and those that see
themselves as handicapped and disadvantaged.

Are there pompous kids? Sure. But I believe that exists anywhere and quite
frankly, I felt that those kids were the ones who were missing out. Missing
out on relationships with people who were not caught up on the superficial,
either because they couldn't afford to be, or didn't care.

Anyway, just my perspective, FWIW.

------
jhundal
Couple of thoughts:

\- Even if you provide resources to students for finding jobs/internships,
they don't come with the same connections or experience as their wealthier
peers so I'm wondering how much these help. For example, technology companies
are typically going to hire those computer science students with the most
programming experience, outside of a few small programs run by the larger
companies (Google, Microsoft, Facebook) specifically for disadvantaged
students.

\- Often you see stats on what percentage of students attending a university
are low income (by some proxy like Pell grants), and what percentage of them
graduate, but I have yet to see stats on career fields and income for these
students. As someone from a blue collar middle class background getting an
engineering degree I could count on one hand the number of students I met with
backgrounds similar to mine (and this is at a fairly large school). I would
expect these sorts of stats aren't very flattering to schools, but would love
to see the numbers if they exist.

------
eastofeast
Great article. That story struck a chord with me. Some changes to the
settings. Replace an American Ivy league with an elite IIT in India.

It was rare to find a first generation engineering student who came from a
humble background. My peers were fairly affluent, upper-middle class or middle
class at the least. Enjoyment was proportional to thickness of their wallet.
They didn't do anything abnormal or flashy. But it was hard in so many ways.
After all how do you justify skipping their fun events, trips and parties?

I wanted to write some more. But don't feel like reliving that past. So making
an abrupt end.

------
alexashka
I think the article misses the point: the problem with poor people is they
don't have money.

I'd know, I grew up poor. That's the problem, and ONLY problem.

'We can do more to be supportive' \- JUST GIVE THEM MONEY. Oh they don't have
to pay tuition, that's great. Do they have to pay rent and eat? Do they need
to buy textbooks and clothes?

Give them money, end of story.

All this talk of self-esteem issues - please. Every 12-30 year old has self-
esteem issues or ego-maniacal issues, time fixes all that. Just let them study
and learn to fit in instead of washing dishes.

~~~
smeyer
At the top ivy league schools, they do in fact also pay for rent, food, and
even clothes (Harvard has a fund to pay for winter coats for students on
certain levels of financial aid.) Harvard also has a fund to pay for some
school-sponsored social events (like formal dances) as well as certain types
of travel. There is still a notable class difference and there are still
issues of money around different types of activities and behaviors, but it's
not like they just pay tuition and call it a day.

(I mentioned Harvard specifically a few times because I went there and am
familiar, but I believe the situation is the same at a couple of other top ivy
league schools.)

~~~
alexashka
If this is truly the case - I don't understand the notion of working part-time
and studying at a top school. What is that all about?

If it is as you say it is - then this is just folks boo-hooing about the
challenges of... well... being in challenging situations.

You are going to be put in those when it comes to your health, relationships
and likely money, sooner or later. Everyone goes through that at some point in
time - most come out alive :)

~~~
smeyer
I think it's a bit unreasonable to describe it all as just "boo-hooing".
Obviously everyone has challenges, but that doesn't mean that it isn't worth
considering how these could be mitigated. There is a real problem of social
stratification and isolation that affects many students at these top schools
in a way that substantially impacts their experiences, and while it may be
difficult to resolve, it's probably worth thinking about.

------
nutate
I can answer this, just wrote an answer then deleted it.

Bottom line: If you are poor and can figure out this loophole, just do it. On
the balance I'm very, very glad I did.

------
p_eter_p
John Scalzi's essay "Being Poor" is a really good read along these same lines.

[http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-
poor/](http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/)

------
gaius
_now a junior sociology major_

This surprised me - I expected someone in this situation to pursue a
vocational subject like engineering or medicine.

------
enupten
It has nothing to do with Ivies or the US; it's humanity.

------
_greim_
First first world problems.

