
An Argentinian in Stuttgart: Founding a Startup in Germany - derwildemomo
http://startup-stuttgart.de/argentinian-in-stuttgart-founding-startup-in-germany/
======
levosmetalo
I think that the bureaucracy is what is really killing entrepreneurship in
Germany. Right now I'm wrapping my head about opening an UG (small GmbH)
company, but when I think about all the regulations and associated costs, I'm
not sure it's worth it. That's probably the reason many people do contracting
as "selbständige" instead through their own companies. I wish there would be a
real equivalent of LLC or Ltd company in Germany.

~~~
WA
Go to your local citizen center (Bürgeramt), register for a "Gewerbeschein" as
"Einzelunternehmer". It costs 35€ and then you're good to go and do business.
Takes 10 minutes.

You can still go for a UG or GmbH later. It's really not necessary in the
beginning, especially if you have hardly any revenue.

~~~
snw
+1

Getting a GbR (Gesellschaft bürgerlichen Rechts ) setup is also possible at
the Bürgeramt and similarly easy.

Also: as mentioned in the interview getting a "Steuerberater" once you have
some income is a good thing to do. They can advice you in many financial and
basic legal things and do most of the paperwork for you so one can concentrate
on actual work ;-)

~~~
Xylakant
There's no need to go to the Bürgeramt to form a GbR. A GbR is formed by
multiple people joining together to pursue a common goal. A GbR is implicitly
formed when 2 people agree to participate in a lottery - a written contract is
possible and advisable, but not required. A registration is not required at
all.

I would actually recommend seeing a Steuerberater _before_ you form your
company or register anything anywhere. There's a lot of money you can save on
that front.

~~~
marianoguerra
you still need the paperwork to open the bank account and for stuff like
paymill, so it's more convenient to do it the paper way :)

~~~
Xylakant
No, you don't, at least not for the bank account. You need the tax number from
the Finanzamt and the confirmation that you're freelance but that's a
different thing.

In any case the registration at the Gewerbeamt (Gewerbeschein) is a different
beast than the contract and paperwork needed to form a company. In some cases
freelancers are required to register and in some cases companies can be
exempt. It's basically a license to do business. If you register you need to
pay Gewerbesteuer which can be costly (you can deduct that from you income
taxes but often not in full).

So if you can freelance instead of registering a Gewerbe for a single person,
do so, by all means. Talk to a tax accountant to know if you really need to
register.

~~~
marianoguerra
we are two founders, so I guess I need some kind of society.

the bank asked me for the contract, I guess I can have a GbR founding contract
without registering the GbR, but I registered just in case.

------
lazyant
Germany is doing something right:
[http://i.imgur.com/B2YoJug.png](http://i.imgur.com/B2YoJug.png) (map of
unemployment variation)

~~~
marianoguerra
yes it is, nobody said otherwise.

you have to still try to do better if you want to keep it that way ;)

~~~
lazyant
hola Mariano, I wasn't disputing anything, just illustrating that currently
Germany is the engine of Europe, a bit OT if you will.

Not sure what you mean by your second sentence, I'm not German.

~~~
marianoguerra
I'm not german either :)

what I mean with the second sentence is that if you want to keep getting good
results you have to have a critical view of the things you can improve and try
to improve them.

Getting good results in one area shouldn't be an excuse to justify not being
good in others.

I hope the interview doesn't sound like I'm only complaining about Germany,
it's more in the hope that it improves so more companies can be created and
maybe the example is followed by other european countries.

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nephorider
Having created (and failed) a company in Germany, it is true that the
bureaucracy and paperwork is especially tough and hard to understand.
Administrative German is very hard to ingest. Once started rules of work and
leading a company are pretty straightforward

~~~
stevoski
Having created a business in Australia, Germany, and Spain, I think Germany
was quite painless, once I found a local who was well-versed in german
bureaucratic ways to assist me. Australia was a piece of cake. Spain, however,
is...well...let's put it this way: I've been trying to pay income tax or
corporate tax to the Spanish government for two years. In two years, despite
my best efforts, they haven't made it happen.

~~~
mjn
Yeah, southern Europe in general is not easy to properly start a business in
even for locals. I have some relatives who run a small business in Greece, and
they have lots of stories about that. One of several problems in the country.

Denmark might be the easiest for foreigners: you can register a sole
proprietorship free online, and get a tax code, within an hour. It's only in
Danish, but simple enough Danish that Google Chrome's translation can handle
ok:
[http://www.virk.dk/myndigheder/stat/ERST/Registrering_af_enk...](http://www.virk.dk/myndigheder/stat/ERST/Registrering_af_enkeltmandsvirksomhed)

The government also recently translated their entrepreneurs' handbook to
English, with background information on laws, incorporation types, employment
norms, etc.:
[http://startvaekst.dk/entrepreneurshipindenmark.dk/tools_and...](http://startvaekst.dk/entrepreneurshipindenmark.dk/tools_and_information/0/4).
And Copenhagen, at least, has an office specifically for assisting non-Danes
in starting businesses and navigating any regulations:
[https://subsite.kk.dk/sitecore/content/Subsites/CityOfCopenh...](https://subsite.kk.dk/sitecore/content/Subsites/CityOfCopenhagen/SubsiteFrontpage/Business/OpenYourBusinessInCopenhagen.aspx).
In general the civil service is surprisingly English-friendly.

------
ellenberg
Hello world! There is more than Berlin in Germany :)

~~~
ckozlowski
I'm living in Stuttgart as an expat, so reading this brought me the same
reaction. "ja, nacht Berlin!" "Yay, Stuttgart!" and all that.

But I'm disappointed there isn't more of a tech scene here. Stuttgart does
have a lot of great schools, but this is an engineering town, not an IT city.
Industry here revolves around Damiler and Porsche. The students are all in
mechanical engineering, it seems. I'm thrilled to read something about this
area, but I have to say, I'm awfully puzzled at the same time.

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
So very true, I live here as well and noticed the same things. Even the local
hackerspace (which is Germany's 2nd biggest) is very hardware oriented, it
seems. Mechanical engineering is just very strong here.

I'd be very interested in more interesting things to work on, but as it is,
its mostly big business IT with lots of Java and XML.

~~~
ckozlowski
I'd be interested in any further info you have on it.

The last time I'd looked up Stuttgart's hackerspaces on hackerspaces.org, the
pages looked dead.

~~~
marianoguerra
I went one day to the stuttgart hackspace
([http://shackspace.de/](http://shackspace.de/)) and they gave me a nice
introduction and tour, it's really big, they do really cool stuff.

if you are around you should go and take a look.

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
Its definitely big and active, not dead at all. The people are very open and
most quite friendly, I can recommend it. Its just more on the hardware side of
things, or at least thats the impression I got.

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marianoguerra
hi! I'm the interviewed, feel free to ask any question :)

~~~
blumentopf
One recommendation regarding taxes: Do it yourself.

You're not obliged to enlist the help of a Steuerberater. If you've just got
an Einzelunternehmen or GbR, you only have to file a list of earnings and
expenses (Einnahmenüberschussrechnung) plus some forms.

Also, become a member of the Bund der Steuerzahler (www.steuerzahler.de /
www.steuerzahler-baden-wuerttemberg.de). They offer a vast set of brochures
and summaries on their website's members area which can help you find your way
around the German tax system. It's also possible to call them and ask for help
if you have trouble with specific rules (though they're not allowed to provide
proper consulting like a Steuerberater). Membership costs just 56 Euro per
year.

I've been doing my tax declaration myself for years now and the few times I've
interacted with Steuerberaters I realized they don't know more about the tax
system than myself (sometimes they know less).

~~~
rb2k_
I can confirm this. I did them as a "Freiberufler" and it's really not all
that hard.

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kephra
As posted in comment on site:

"the interview is lacking the most important question: What are the legal
requirements and steps for a foreigner coming from outside Europe to fund a
company in Germany and to become resident."

perhaps someone here knows?

~~~
marianoguerra
hi, interviewed here.

I can't answer the questions since I have a dual citizenchip:
Argentinian/Italian thanks to my grandparent :)

from what I've heard there is a new law to attract engineers and similar
professionals to work on big companies only with the condition that they have
a contract and are paid more than X annually (I don't remember the amount).

I don't know of something similar for founders.

~~~
tinkerdol
The new law you mention is the new "Bluecard" law: [http://bluecard-
germany.com/](http://bluecard-germany.com/)

Here is a more useful site explaining how foreigners can come and work in
Germany: [http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/](http://www.make-it-in-
germany.com/en/)

But yeah, I don't see anything about founding a company...

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hreinhardt
Hi, I am Holger from Startup Stuttgart ([http://startup-
stuttgart.de](http://startup-stuttgart.de)). Kathleen from our team did the
interview. If you are interested to get involved with the tech or startup
scene in STG contact us via startup stuttgart or join our LinkedIn group
"Neckar Valley Network".

