
Nicotine as a useful stimulant - gwern
http://www.gwern.net/Nicotine
======
whalesalad
I can't imagine life without stimulants. I hope to move off into the woods one
day and live a completely natural lifestyle for a while. Reset myself. No
caffeine, no nicotine, no amphetamines. Just me, a dog, and a nice ranch
property in the middle of nowhere.

Meanwhile, nicotine is a staple of my day-to-day. I quit smoking a long time
ago, now I stick to Swedish snus and vaping. For a period I was chewing gum
too. Definitely lots of ways to get it without smoking.

~~~
cnp
In an attempt to quit smoking I just discovered the vaporization method and
WOW -- I'm so impressed. Its actually enjoyable in the way that smoking is
enjoyable, and the stimulant kick is very real.

~~~
agumonkey
vaporized liquid nicotine ? Where do you get it ? in Europe e-cigarettes are
under scrutiny because the sold product is not guaranteed to be clean of toxic
substances, otherwise it would be pretty great I guess.

~~~
cnp
I bought the eGO-T (meant for vaporizing plant matter) with a secondary
nicotine adapter. In the US you can find both products at nearly every smoke
shop.

One thing that really makes a difference is that the vaporized nicotine is
actually somewhat hot, like cigarette smoke, when you breathe it in. Standard
pre-packaged e-cigarettes didn't cut it for me specifically for this reason.

~~~
agumonkey
And the nicotine refill are pure nicotine ? no weird additives ?

You mean pre-packaged e-cigs provide a bad user experience with 'cold' vapor ?

~~~
Leon
It's not pure nicotine, but a mixture of propylene glycol or vegetable glycol,
flavoring, and then nicotine.

Some of the off the shelf disposable / prepackaged e-cigs aren't powerful
enough to have a strong vaporization of the solution. When you're refilling
yourself, it becomes substantially cheaper (maybe a few dollars for a month of
heavy usage?), and with the higher end kits you can program your voltage /
amperage settings on curves for your preference as you in inhale.

~~~
cnp
Exactly. It gives you a lot of control over the smoking experience, where the
prepackaged ones don't. I was a heavy smoker and enjoyed really bad (cheap)
cigarettes; with the eGO cig you can really create a terrible smoking setup if
you so desire, which is exactly what I needed quit :)

------
lolwutf
From anecdotal experience, nicotine has quite a similar effect to amphetamine
(therapeutic dosing.. i.e. Adderall).

Nicotine, in low doses, by itself (i.e. outside of tobacco, which contains
MAOIs, which potentiate nicotine's effects), is not terribly addictive. I'll
occasionally supplement it for a few days at a time, then stop. I would
caution anyone supplementing nicotine NEVER to smoke tobacco, at the same
time.

Patches are the most healthy way to consume nicotine. Nicotine + gums = all
kinds of bad stuff. Still, there's some slight carcinogenic risk with long-
term use of the stuff, so it's not a miracle drug. :(

~~~
Throwadev
What kind of bad stuff with gum? After reading gwern i started trying out gum
and it's nice. I have no cravings and never have to or want to consume more
than a single gum per day. Most of the time it's a quarter or half a chiclet +
headphones and a clean desk to get me into a 2-4 hour coding session.

I'm worried about if it will damage my oral health or anything though. Will
it?

~~~
lolwutf
You can do a couple pieces of day, with no problem, IME. Chew it up well and
let it sit in your lip for optimal absorption.

That said, when nicotine is exposed to oral tissues, it may be promoting:

-oral cancer

Source:
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20338106](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20338106)

-gingivitis

Source:
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20337880](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20337880)

-receding gums

Source: don't have a specific study handy, but this high-level review mentions
it, and other issues:
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933534/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933534/)

Keep in mind, these are all _slight_ chances. If you do this regularly for
years, it may be of concern. Every once in a while? No biggie.

Patch will get you around all of these, specific issues at least. There's
still that whole 'carcinogenic, overall' thing.

~~~
jmcgough
The first study doesn't say that it causes oral cancer, but can cause
resistance to chemotherapy. Additionally, that study is of smokers.

------
maxander
If nicotine is supposedly "not highly addictive," what heretofore obscure,
hideous compounds are lurking in cigarettes that accounts for their legendary
addictiveness?

MAOIs? True, they give withdrawal symptoms. But despite being a widely used
pharmaceutical, to my knowledge no MAOI-only drug has seen anything resembling
the abuse patterns of tobacco.

The hand-wavy "other compounds" that the article mentions and then doesn't
describe? Anyone know what those would be?

So, sure- maybe nicotine isn't very addictive, yet it makes an otherwise non-
addictive drug dreadfully addictive. Or perhaps the scientific truth of the
matter, whatever it is, is simply complicated enough that someone who really
wants one particular thing to be true can twist a bit of evidence around to
support his case. Either way- stick to coffee.

~~~
smosher
I've never heard someone talk about MAOIs in isolation before. You do realize
the point of these is to affect other drugs right?

~~~
shabble
I believe they _can_ be used in isolation, because by suppressing/slowing the
oxidative metabolism of synaptic neurotransmitters, they can be used to
compensate for low baseline levels by extending their active lifespan.

The main reason they're not used is that better & more selective releasing
agent/reuptake inhibitors exist, and MAOIs have potentially fatal interactions
with a huge variety of different substances (including some _cheeses_ , if
memory serves)

We're definitely in agreement that MAOIs have a strong effect on the
(heightened) levels of synaptic neurotransmitters (released by some nicotinic
upstream signalling), giving a synergistic effect.

~~~
smosher
Right. I suppose I took it for granted that brains are big ol' drug factories
and assumed everyone was on the same page. The point is the MAOI isn't a used
as neurotransmitter, but to affect the metabolism of monoamine
transmitters—now matter how they got there.

------
ludoo
20+ years smoker, about 30 cigarettes a day mostly hand-rolled. I quit 6
months ago and despite vaping turned into a kind of zombie until I discovered
snus.

Then I understood what I had missed all this time: I love nicotine, and the
surprising thing is that without all the toxic stuff in cigarettes it's not as
addictive as it's made out to be.

I often go hours without a portion of snus and completely forget about it,
while I could not stay away from cigarettes for more than a couple of hours
without getting restless.

------
noir_lord
Interesting, but there is no way in hell I'd risk nicotine addiction again, I
quit smoking 4 years ago (it's hard but not as hard as many would have you
believe).

Caffeine though you can prise from my cold dead mug.

------
lolwutf
I'm very sad this article doesn't mention the most interesting quality of
nicotine: depending on how it is administered, it will act either as a
sedative, or a stimulant!

There's not (m)any other molecules out there that do this, so it's quite a
novel research target!

~~~
kvcrawford
Which ROA causes it to act as a sedative? That's very curious, indeed!

~~~
lolwutf
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Psychoactive_effects](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Psychoactive_effects)

3rd paragaph

------
plasmacaster
I've read about supposed benefits of nicotine a while ago and got myself an
electronic cigarette. I have never smoked before.

Not sure if there are any mental benefits. I feel a bit more relaxed right
after vaping. No ill effects whatsoever. I made a few week to month long
breaks to see if there would be any addiction - there was none. I was able to
stop at any time.

It's sort of like snacking for me, but without the calories. Definitely
contributed to my weight loss.

~~~
solox3
So did I. As a non-smoker, I got an "e-cig" simply because it contains
nicotine and no tar.

Two years of off-and-on "smoking" has revealed that this cigarette replacement
causes no addiction whatsoever.

------
jcromartie
I don't know, but I think cigar and pipe smoking are a perfectly valid way to
get nicotine on your own terms while avoiding addiction. I have never seen
someone cowering in the rain cradling a big cigar to get their fix.

~~~
jonnathanson
Cigar smoker here, and back when I had more time on my hands, I went through a
pretty heavy cigar phase. Cigars are impractical as addictive agents, because
they're very expensive and take a long time to consume. But they exhibit at
least _some_ mildly to moderately addictive properties. Back in grad school I
found myself moving up the ladder from the occasional cigar a week, to the
cigar every day, to the two to three cigars a day. I wouldn't say I _needed_
them, or that the urge to smoke clawed at me every waking second. But I'd
build my entire morning routine around the first cigar, my afternoon and
evenings around the second and third, and so on. A day without a cigar left me
pretty restless and unfocused. If that's not addiction, per se, it was
something resembling dependence.

Cigarettes are more insidious tobacco delivery vehicles, but cigars aren't
exactly health supplements.

Nicotine supplementation, absent the tobacco, is an interesting subject worth
further study and consideration. On its own, given Gwern's and other research,
it seems no more dangerous or addictive than caffeine (for example).

------
nazgulnarsil
I vaped for a while on the strength of this analysis, but eventually concluded
that stimulants weren't worth the blood pressure increase. I still vape zero
nicotine ejuice though. That stuff is delicious.

~~~
webosb
i'm vaping and lowering my doses of nicotine while i go. hopefully, i can get
to zero nicotine.

~~~
ludoo
I did the same, then switched to snus and stopped vaping. I thought the
important thing was having something my hand, and some smoke to blow, then I
understood that I only care about nicotine. :)

------
jdnier
A great quote from the appendix: "In philosophy, one is taught to not try to
prove too much (inviting people to modus tollens your modus ponens), to not do
more philosophy than one has to; in programming, you learn to not become an
architecture astronaut solving some hugely abstract version of your actual
problem - such overreach invites disaster."

------
spion
"Effects of nicotine on perceptual speed" [1] is behind a paywall, and I can't
tell from the abstract whether the results also apply to non-smokers.

However, the abstract of another of the articles, "Effects of Cigarette
Smoking on Performance in a Simulated Driving Task" [2] states that the effect
was only measured on minimally abstinent smokers.

Are any of the other studies measuring the beneficial effects of nicotine on
non-users (and non-users only)?

My anecdotal experience when I quit (the first 2 times, couple of months each)
as well as the first time I smoked was that the first couple of cigarettes had
absolutely no effects, whatsoever.

So the last time I quit (about 2 years ago), I just kept at it. After about 3
months any previously observable decline in performance and ability to focus
was gone. Most of it was gone in the first 3 weeks actually, with only slight
remains of increased irritability persisting for 2 more months.

That makes me suspect that nicotine only has a beneficial effects on nicotine
users (instead, lack of nicotine is what causes the opposite of the measured
effect for users).

But even if such benefits exist, I feel that the they aren't worth it. The
inability to function without nicotine, the constant drive to get more - it
feels like slavery, and I'll never go back to that.

And I cringe when I read things like:

    
    
        There is addiction but it’s drastically overestimated by     
        almost everyone and may been conflated with the habit-formation 
        capability
    

Because in my experience its completely, totally wrong. I could clearly
separate 2 phases that I went through when I quit:

1\. the nicotine desire phase - First 48 hours. Incredibly, painfully hard.
Strong desire to place a sticker on me or just light a cigarette and make it
all go away. _This_ is what kept me a user for 7 years and helped me come up
with various excuses just to continue.

2\. The learning-to-live phase: A hard but somewhat joyful period where I
would recognize the habitual desire to light up a cigarette associated with
various activities.

The second phase had 3 different stages for every smoking habit I have
developed. For example, at first I couldn't imagine drinking coffee without a
cigarette.

Then after the first time it felt like I'm getting no joy from the coffee. The
second time it felt okay, but slightly incomplete. Finally, the third time it
was all good.

The awesome part was realizing that I just learned how to drink coffee without
cigarettes. And it was super-easy: just do it 3 times. Joy! Repeat with all
other problematic activities.

This happened with all activities that I associated with smoking. Removing the
habits felt easy. Getting off the nicotine felt almost impossible. Luckily,
the necessary time for the second one was much shorter (I still had tiny
activity-induced cravings couple of months after I quit)

[1]:
[http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/19/9/1990.abstract](http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/19/9/1990.abstract)

[2]:
[http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/119229](http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/119229)

~~~
gwern
> "Effects of nicotine on perceptual speed" [1] is behind a paywall, and I
> can't tell from the abstract whether the results also apply to non-smokers.

I need to apologize a little bit here; I've been checking my article and it
seems I inserted the wrong link for that citation. The one I actually wanted
is
[http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02245346](http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02245346)
'Smoking and Raven IQ', Stough et al 1994. Also paywalled, but I'm working on
getting them. (My university access doesn't cover SpringerLink so I need to
ask other people to get them for me.)

> Because in my experience its completely, totally wrong. I could clearly
> separate 2 phases that I went through when I quit:

Let me point out that your subsequent lines indicate you are talking about
your addiction to _tobacco_ , not to nicotine.

~~~
eikenberry
What in tobacco is addictive other than nicotine?

~~~
scotty79
Good question. Artile suggests that there is something. MAOI perhaps? Whatever
that is...

~~~
unmei
Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor(s). Many antidepressants fall into this category.
MAOI's inhibit the enzyme that cleans up several endogenous molecules, like
serotonin, and some drugs, like the amphetamines.

------
abecedarius
Anyone have any notion of the size of the IQ boost suggested by the link to a
paywalled paper?

~~~
tokenadult
So far the IQ boost from any known drug intervention is very modest. All of
the possible environmental interventions on IQ combined appear, from
longitudinal studies of IQ in national populations, to have a fairly strong
effect, but many of those environmental influences are still very poorly
understood. A recent review article,

Nisbett, R. E., Aronson, J., Blair, C., Dickens, W., Flynn, J., Halpern, D.
F., & Turkheimer, E. (2012). Intelligence: new findings and theoretical
developments. American Psychologist, 67(2), 130.

[http://people.virginia.edu/~ent3c/papers2/Articles%20for%20O...](http://people.virginia.edu/~ent3c/papers2/Articles%20for%20Online%20CV/Nisbett\(2012\)%20.pdf)

by a group of all-star IQ researchers who on the whole are optimistic about
environmental interventions, lays out some of the current research and shows
what is still unknown.

~~~
gwern
> So far the IQ boost from any known drug intervention is very modest.

Absolutely; if you look at some of my other pages, you can see for yourself
how little I think of most claims to improve intelligence...

I take this unreplicated study as being more evidence for the stimulating
effect of nicotine rather than any genuine peak intelligence boost, in the
same way that monetary payment can increase peoples' scores on IQ tests - you
wouldn't say 'the promise of money makes people smarter', but rather, 'the
promise of money "enables" people to work harder'.

FWIW, I think the Nisbett review is drastically optimistic in some areas (I've
criticized it on HN in the past, although I can't quite seem to find a link to
my old comment in Google), so the true picture for IQ interventions is worse.

------
lnanek2
I was never into real cigarettes, but it is handy to have an e-cig around to
hackathons and other events where you need to stay up and concentrate :)

~~~
pizzeys
Oh balls, don't let the anti-ecig crowd hear you say that one, please! :D

------
overgryphon
Never smoked, but for people who have smoked and quit- Would short term
stimulant usage (eg Adderall) for a few weeks have helped quit smoking?

It seems possible that stimulant medication could prevent common symptoms like
weight gain, problems concentrating, and help ignore physical cravings for the
first two or three weeks of quitting smoking.

Edit: sorry, somewhat off-topic.

~~~
nikcub
Complete opposite effect, you smoke a lot more on stimulants.

------
peteretep
This triggered some research, which linked me back to:

[http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#nicotine](http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#nicotine)

Where you seem to suggest that actually you experienced no measurable benefit
from nicotine, but the placebo affect was strong. Have I read that correctly?

------
namlem
I'm a non-smoker who bought an e-cigarette to try to use it as a stimulant.
It's pretty meh. The buzz doesn't later very long, significantly shorter than
caffeine, which itself is pretty lame. If you want to really boost performance
amphetamines are your best bet by a lot.

------
mistercow
Nicotine is an excellent salve for ugh fields, if you aren't addicted. Once
you're addicted, it's an OK salve.

------
spion
To the OP: curious to know, are you a user? Have you been off nicotine longer
than 2 months in the past year?

~~~
gwern
> To the OP: curious to know, are you a user?

Yes. Reading the literature, I found no reason to not try out nicotine. I
discuss my personal experiences in
[http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#nicotine](http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#nicotine)

> Have you been off nicotine longer than 2 months in the past year?

Why would I do that if I find it useful, as I do? But I have been keeping a
log of nicotine use since June (to use it as a covariate in other self-
experiments), which indicates I easily skip it for long periods: 03, 07 June
2013: 4mg gum; 22 June 2013: 2mg gum; 24 June 2013: 2mg gum; 1 July: 2mg gum;
9 July, 2mg gum; 20 July, 2mg gum; 20 August, 3mg gum; 5, 6 September, 1mg
gum; 20 Sept, 1mg gum.

More generally, I received my current batch of nicotine gum (96x4mg) back on
28 December 2011, or 640 days ago; I still have 2 pieces left over, so that
means I've been using the nicotine at an average rate of (94 * 4) / 640 =
0.6mg/day. (This includes the August-November 2012 period where I was taking
gum every other day for a dual n-back experiment.)

~~~
spion
Ah, so basically, about 20 times less than an average smoker (compared to your
calculated average), and about 4-5 times less for the peak days, if I'm
calculating correctly?

That is, assuming a 1-pack-a-day smoker of a 0.6mg / cigarette brand ...

Okay, I guess - I wish you the best of luck, and your usage seems well
controlled. Though, the withdrawal I went through when I quit - I wouldn't
wish it to my worst enemy. So I hope you don't mind if I say "be careful"
(even though I can already see that you are :)

~~~
gwern
> That is, assuming a 1-pack-a-day smoker of a 0.6mg / cigarette brand ...

IIRC, the effective dose of a smoker is going to be both quantitatively larger
due to more efficient absorption through the lungs and also qualitatively
different due to the much faster absorption.

Also, I should mention that in the experiment, half the days were placebos, so
that's at least 5 pieces of gum which were allowed to dry out, reducing the
average a little bit.

------
winningaddict
Ah stimulants, a modern application of game theory with our health put on the
line.

------
Nux
You don't need nicotine under any form, believe me. Just stay away from it.

It's not healthy, it's filthy.

~~~
hso9791
A) Why should I believe you?, and B) Is this some metaphorical or religious
uncleanliness you mean when you say filthy?

These issues fixed, you might have presented coherent argument.

------
ivanbrussik
I LOVE NICOTINE!!!!

------
tunap
Once demonization has eradicated tobacco from the public's grasp, these
benefits may be sold back in pill form for an even greater margin of profit.
Yay Capitalism!

~~~
jerf
You should read the article. He prices out nicotene for you. It's... not going
to make anyone wildly rich the way cigarettes did.

~~~
bitcrusher
Unless 'someone' gets smart to the system and starts adding tax to the quit
smoking products, of course.

I think we're seeing some of this now, with the greater attention being paid
to e-cig products.

