
How MSG Got a Bad Rap - caublestone
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-msg-got-a-bad-rap-flawed-science-and-xenophobia/
======
shkkmo
I have no doubt that there are lots of people who falsely believe they have
reactions to MSG. There are lots of people who falsely believe they have
reactions to gluten, but that doesn't mean that Celiac's disease doesn't
exist.

The problem is that it is incredibly difficult to avoid MSG because it is not
required to be labeled as such, but can be hidden behind a large number of
other monikers such as 'Natural Flavors'.

~~~
tptacek
But it's also incredibly difficult to avoid glutamates because they occur
naturally in very high concentrations in some of the foodstuffs people find
most palatable, so they make their way into all sorts of recipes.

This is similar to the "uncured bacon" phenomenon. Truly uncured bacon
wouldn't taste like bacon at all, so producers cure using plant extracts that
are naturally high in nitrates rather than in curing salt. The end result is
the same, but provides a bogus label that some people take seriously.

~~~
shkkmo
> also incredibly difficult to avoid glutamates because they occur naturally
> in very high concentrations in some of the foodstuffs people find most
> palatable

I assume you have some evidence for the 'very high concentration' that
indicates the relative levels of concentrations in 'natural foods' compared to
the levels that can be found in foods with added MSG?

You don't seem to be disputing that people are sensitive to glutamates, so why
can't we have clear labeling of when it is added?

~~~
tptacek
I don't understand this question. Are you really asking whether it's possible
to find out how much glutamic acid is in a gram of a given foodstuff? The
answer is "yes", of course, just like you can easily find out how much sodium
or iron is food.

~~~
shkkmo
How? I don't see a 'grams of free glutamate' label on food. I can't even find
sources that tell me the average amount of free glutamates in foods where MSG
is typically added.

~~~
yincrash
[http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000093000000000000000.ht...](http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000093000000000000000.html)

"Foods highest in Glutamic acid (based on levels per 200-Calorie serving)"

------
afarrell
I wonder if it would be possible to rebrand MSG as "umami salt"

~~~
DougN7
From what I understand, it already has hundreds of names. You have to wonder
why that would be.

~~~
tptacek
Obviously, because it's stigmatized. Surely you can't be suggesting that we
can draw conclusions about its biological properties simply from that.

------
tcfunk
I would be interested to know more about this, as I've always considered MSG
something to avoid entirely. Unfortunately, the article doesn't really offer
specifics as to _why_ MSG is safe, apart from "so-and-so said it is".

Edit: Wow, thank you all for the information!

~~~
tptacek
It's safe because it's simply the salt of sodium and glutamic acid. Glutamate
is an amino acid that is a fundamental building block of your metabolism. It's
also been omnipresent in human diets for millennia.

If we had discovered how to synthesize salt in 1909 and had called it "NACL"
since then, it would be precisely as controversial as MSG is.

~~~
patio11
The counterfactual world should really be obsessed with the fact that Asians
put NACL on everything, too. NACL is in soy sauce. NACL is in tempura. NACL is
in fried rice. An independent lab tested 48 items at an Asian fusion
restaurant and detected NACL in 46 of them! Will no one save health-conscious
Americans from the perils of NAsianCL?

(Sarcasm off: salt is widely used across many cultures cuisines because salt
is delicious. This property is shared with MSG, but MSG is only called MSG
when Asians use it. When Italians use it it is called "food.")

~~~
mchahn
> salt is widely used across many cultures cuisines because salt is delicious.

And also because salt is needed to stay alive.

------
X-Istence
MSG in the US may be on labels in a variety of different ways, including
"yeast extract". Why does something that is considered to not have any adverse
effects labeled differently other than to confuse the consumer?

I myself am a gout sufferer, and MSG is one of my triggers. I didn't realise
what was causing me to always have a bout of gout after eating Chinese food,
so I would change what I ordered, what I ate to try and figure it out.
Ultimately I started cooking my favourite dishes at home, using pre-made
sauces bought at the store (they didn't mention MSG after all, and I had no
idea that yeast extract was the same thing).

The restaurant near me claimed they did not cook with MSG, however the
manufacturer for their soy sauce used for stir frying apparently added yeast
extract (MSG by another name) and they were not aware of it.

These days I end up cooking at home more, which is probably healthier and
better for my wallet in the long term.

~~~
tptacek
Again: there is no debate that MSG is stigmatized in the US. You can't draw
conclusions from that! All sorts of things are stigmatized that shouldn't be,
and there are other things that aren't stigmatized that probably should be.

I'll ask you the same thing I've asked the other two people on this thread
who've reported personal experience with MSG sensitivity. Have you tried the
things I listed here?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10866718](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10866718)

I ask because, again, it would be pretty fascinating to find a sensitivity to
MSG that _wasn 't_ correlated with a sodium or glutamate sensitivity. MSG
instantaneously breaks into sodium and glutamate in liquid (such as in your
stomach).

~~~
X-Istence
I don't have any issues with salt at all. I have absolutely nothing against
MSG, and have in the past loved eating food with MSG in it. It took me months
of trial and error to figure out that MSG was the common ingredient that was
causing me my pain.

> Another question to ask yourself: do you get headaches when you eat blue
> cheese, parmesan, mushrooms, or tomatoes? Those are naturally intense
> sources of glutamic acid.

Other than mushrooms (which I also avoid religiously), none of the others
listed cause gout for me.

Things that cause my gout relentlessly and quickly: asparagus, beans, legumes
(peanuts included), mushrooms, MSG, bacon (specifically nitrites in it), pork
(yes, I know bacon is pork), whey proteins, and almonds.

~~~
tptacek
It's not that I don't believe you that there are foods with MSG in them that
trigger symptoms. But if you can eat a couple of tomatoes without triggering
symptoms, it doesn't sound like it's the glutamate that's doing it. And MSG is
just sodium and glutamate; it dissolves instantly in water.

~~~
X-Istence
I eat at most a half tomato at once in a salad or on a burger. I am not a big
fan of tomato based sauces (for pasta/pizza) because they are too acidic for
my tastes.

------
mmanfrin
MSG is absolutely delicious on steaks. The family recipe calls for garlic
salt, black pepper, and msg. Grill on whatever grill you use (we used
countertop grills like the george foreman). Perfection.

------
microtherion
If you think MSG got a bad rap, try selling chocolates garnished with lark's
vomit.

------
JohnTHaller
I thought this was going to be an article about Madison Square Garden. If
you're thinking of clicking for that reason, it's not. It's about monosodium
glutamate.

~~~
askafriend
Now I kinda want an article and discussion of Madison Square Garden. Come on
HN, make it happen!

------
DougN7
My wife gets a migraine within minutes of eating something with MSG. In fact,
we figure something has MSG after the fact by the migraine. Homemade asian
foods don't seem to bring it on as we're careful to keep that one ingredient
out.

~~~
tptacek
Did you try the things I suggested here?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=10866718](https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=10866718)

It would be really interesting to discover someone who was genuinely sensitive
to monosodium glutamate but _not_ to sodium or free glutamates in other foods.
I'm not sure how that would be explainable.

There have been many blinded experiments looking for glutamate reactions
(using MSG as the vector), and they're not inconclusive; they appear to refute
"Chinese Restaurant Syndrome".

------
jimrandomh
The article had a pretty clear position it was arguing for, so rather than
read to the end, I jumped out of the author's narrative and searched PubMed
([http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=monosodium+glutamat...](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=monosodium+glutamate+randomized+controlled+trial+headache)).
Of the first page of results, two were randomized placebo-controlled trials of
MSG administration
([http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23565943](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23565943)
and
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9215242](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9215242))
and both had positive results.

~~~
tptacek
Followup studies were unable to reproduce the results of the Yang study:

[http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/4/1058S.full](http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/4/1058S.full)

~~~
jimrandomh
From the study you linked to:

> In Protocol A, 50 (38.5%) of 130 subjects reported two or more symptoms
> (“positive response”) during the MSG challenge and had no symptoms or one
> symptom after placebo. Nineteen subjects (14.6%) reported two or more
> symptoms to both MSG and placebo, whereas 17 subjects (13.1%) reported two
> or more symptoms to placebo and no symptoms or one symptom after MSG. Forty-
> four subjects (33.8%) reported no symptoms or one symptom to both MSG and
> placebo. Administration of 5 g MSG was associated with a significantly
> higher frequency of response, i.e., of occurrence of two or more symptoms
> and with significantly higher frequency of occurrence of four of the 10
> symptoms.

~~~
vonmoltke
Also from the study (emphasis mine):

> The results suggest that large doses of MSG given _without food_ may elicit
> more symptoms than a placebo in individuals who believe that they react
> adversely to MSG. However, the frequency of the responses was low and _the
> responses reported were inconsistent and were not reproducible_. The
> responses were _not observed when MSG was given with food_.

So, the study demonstrated that relatively high doses of MSG given straight to
people causes a scattering of inconsistent reactions, but that MSG in food
does nothing.

~~~
shkkmo
> So, the study demonstrated that relatively high doses of MSG given straight
> to people causes a scattering of inconsistent reactions, but that MSG in
> food does nothing.

There were 2 subjects in protocol D where food was used. In the steps between
A and B 50% of relevant participants were eliminated. IN the steps between B
and C 1/3 of the relevant participants were elminated.

The study did not demonstrate that MSG in food does nothing, they just failed
to observe an effect on two participants.

The study did demonstrate that MSG can have an effect but that the effect is
not consistent. To me that gives even more reason to view a failure to observe
an effect in two participants as inconclusive.

------
donretag
I do not care about "the lack of evidence tying MSG to negative health
effects", I am affected. It is not racism, stereotyping or "the nocebo
effect", but something that is real.

One time that I had an MSG attack (racing heart) was when I cooked Zatarain's
at home. Or perhaps, according the author, I want to secretly vilify the
creole? Clickbait drivel.

"When it comes to MSG, the false connections are fairly innocuous for most
people but may still cause unnecessary discomfort for some, either because
they are experiencing the nocebo effect or depriving themselves of
deliciousness."

I have been to 6 Asian countries for a time period of over 4 months total. I
guess I must have been stereotyping them all along.

~~~
tptacek
It's statistically more likely that you're sodium sensitive than that you're
sensitive to glutamic acid. If you got a racing heart but no headache, that's
an even stronger indicator: people who are salt sensitive experience
palpitations when they ingest too much of it, but people who are sensitive to
glutamates usually present with intense headaches.

Another question to ask yourself: do you get headaches when you eat blue
cheese, parmesan, mushrooms, or tomatoes? Those are naturally intense sources
of glutamic acid.

I don't think many people are arguing that it's impossible to be sensitive to
glutamic acid (the case is stronger that nobody is specifically allergic to
_MSG_ , though). But there are people sensitive to all sorts of things,
including very basic food inputs like salt. We don't dismiss people with
shellfish allergies and say "but shellfish is perfectly safe!". But we also
don't treat shellfish like hazmat because some people can't eat it.

Finally: the reason people call out the nocebo effect is that the
placebo/nocebo effect is extremely and counterintuitively powerful. You'd
expect people suffering from a nocebo effect to have a dismissive reaction to
that explanation, because the effect plays tricks on our thinking.

(I upvoted you, by the way.)

~~~
rm999
>do you get headaches when you eat blue cheese, parmesan, mushrooms, or
tomatoes? Those are naturally intense sources of glutamic acid

How much, though? Some quick and dirty math (please correct me if I'm wrong in
any of this):

100 grams of parmesan cheese (about a cup) is 1.2 grams of free glutamates:
[http://www.msgfacts.com/nutrition/what_foods_are_glutamate-r...](http://www.msgfacts.com/nutrition/what_foods_are_glutamate-
rich.aspx)

Powdered MSG contains 78% free glutamate and 12.2% sodium, or about a 6.4:1
glutamate:sodium ratio:
[http://www.edenfoods.com/articles/view.php?articles_id=207](http://www.edenfoods.com/articles/view.php?articles_id=207)

A teaspoon of powdered MSG contains 500 mg of sodium ([http://ecx.images-
amazon.com/images/I/91dpQqbFZrL._SL1500_.j...](http://ecx.images-
amazon.com/images/I/91dpQqbFZrL._SL1500_.jpg)). This is about 3.2 grams of
glutamate.

So, if my math is correct, a teaspoon of powdered MSG contains as much sodium
as 2.7 cups (0.5 * 6.4 / 1.2) of parmesan cheese. As someone who regularly
cooks with MSG powder and has seen other people cook with it too (my chinese
friend uses a 1:1 ratio of salt and MSG powder), it's easy to load food with
way more than 1 teaspoon of MSG per serving.

My point is, I think people who cook with MSG use way more glutamate than
people who cook with natural foods like parmesan or mushrooms.

~~~
tptacek
Studies of food with MSG added suggest that typical dishes with MSG have less
than 0.5 grams of MSG (and thus even less glutamate). 3 grams of glutamate is
a _lot_.

The important question in this part of the thread, just to be clear, isn't
whether you can more rapidly ingest glutamic acid by eating pure MSG than by
eating parmesan. Of course you can! The question is whether you get a roughly
equivalent dose of glutamate from common umami-forward dishes than you do from
dishes where umami is added through MSG.

If people who claim to be MSG-sensitive are eating typical dishes (the kind
where MSG is buried in the label as "yeast extract") and reporting symptoms,
but aren't responding to a blue cheese burger with mushrooms, something's
wrong wth the reporting.

~~~
rm999
>If people who claim to be MSG-sensitive are eating typical dishes (the kind
where MSG is buried in the label as "yeast extract") and reporting symptoms,
but aren't responding to a blue cheese burger with mushrooms, something's
wrong wth the reporting.

This was the point of my comment: there is far more free glutamate in (some)
foods containing powdered MSG, like Zatarain's, than there is in naturally
high glutamate foods like mushrooms and parmesan. I'm talking potentially an
order of magnitude. This is partially because of the way people use the
powders, and partially because the processing of MSG involves freeing bound
glutamates. As someone who cooks with powdered MSG, I'm speaking from personal
experience here - I don't have a sensitivity to glutamate, so I cook with a
lot of it. So do many other people I know.

>The question is whether you get a roughly equivalent dose of glutamate from
common umami-forward dishes than you do from dishes where umami is added
through MSG.

The answer is "not at all" for many types of food (like a typical corner
Chinese restaurant, who uses powdered MSG a lot like I do).

~~~
tptacek
"The processing of MSG involves freeing bound glutamates"? This sounds
suspiciously Mercola-ish. Can you be more specific?

