

Ask HN: Would you like a service to teach you etiquette? - matt312

I'm working on such a service right now, and I have to ask: would you pay for it? I think a lot of people in this world today don't know how to carry themselves properly. The way you present yourself is extremely important and it can make or break opportunities for you. So, what do you think?
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debacle
I might pay $5 for an app that would be sort of my wikipedia on etiquette, but
I don't know how you could monetize this as a service - much of the
information is available for free online, so it would have to have a strong
value-add.

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DanBC
Is it properly internationalised?

In the workplace some places expect you to take your jacket off and roll up
your sleeves. You're not working hard enough if you don't. Other countries
expect you to have sleeves unrolled and tie nice and straight, otherwise
you're a sloppy worker.

I can definitely see someone (but not me) paying a small amount for that kind
of information - the cultural notes you need when visiting some other nation.

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dalke
Not at all. The very phrasing "carry themselves properly" makes me bristle.
From what I've seen of etiquette teaching services, the rules taught have
about as much relevance good behavior as as "Elements of Style" has to how
English is actually used. Modifying from Pullum's criticism of the latter,
it's "uninformed bossiness ... and the result is a nation of educated people
who know they feel vaguely anxious and insecure."

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debacle
As is the case with both The Elements of Style and etiquette or any 'art,' you
need to know the rules before you can break them.

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dalke
My point is that many of them are bad rules ... easy to memorize, but bad
rules. As a simple example, "However. In the meaning nevertheless, not to come
first in its sentence or clause." That's not how English was used 100 years
ago, nor how it's used now, so it's pointless rule to learn. And famously,
three of Strunk and White's four examples of how to rewrite the passive into
better form don't actually involve a passive. Only in retrospect do I
understand why I was so confused about "avoiding the passive" during school -
my teachers didn't know what a passive was!

Etiquette rules are often the same. Why stand for the "Hallelujah" chorus?
Because that's the done thing. Why do people in the US eat with the fork
inverted from the way used in the UK? Why is port always passed to the left in
the UK, and how is the Bishop of Norwich involved?

The real answer is two-fold. Knowing these practices indicate the you are a
member of a certain group. By not knowing them you can feel like an outsider.
If there really are a set of easily-learned rules to follow, then you can make
the transition to that group. (Jumping back to Element of Style; follow these
rules to become a better writer.)

But only rarely is there a simple set of rules to follow - like if you were to
meet the Queen of England. It takes years to learn the little rules that a
given subgroup acquired over decades, not the few weeks these classes usually
do. Plus, etiquette classes usually promote etiquette rules specific to a
certain style of upper-class culture, and direct their marketing to people of
lower social/economic class. The end result is that they encourage a feeling
of vague anxiety and nervousness in their target audience, and perhaps also a
sense of superiority in those in the upper-class who learned these rules
growing up.

The other fold is that there are some bad things which are easily avoided with
preparation. Don't wear orange at a big, rowdy St. Patrick's Day party in
Boston unless you're itching for a fight. Those especially occur when mixing
very different cultures; eg, in part of the world "Chopsticks should not be
left standing vertically in a bowl of rice or other food" because they have a
funeral connotation. Cultural awareness training for this case, especially for
people moving overseas to a radically different culture, can be very fruitful.

However, as the original poster said "carry themselves properly", I presume
the courses are of the first fold - promotion of certain economically upper-
class practices - and not the second - avoiding culture clashes.

In any case, it isn't a matter of learning rules before you can break them.
It's a matter of learning specific rules in order to appeal to those who
believe that those rules are meaningful, whether it be an editor who rejects
".. or less" as valid English, or a person who thinks only buffoons wear white
after Labor Day. With that in mind, "carry themselves properly" is not longer
absolute but only meaningful if you want to get something from that subgroup
of people.

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Mz
I have difficulty imagining how this would work. Etiquette is very context
specific and rooted in having substantial background knowledge to employ it
properly. Since you seem to think there is some nice, neat little set of rules
to follow, I have difficulty believing you are even qualified to teach such a
thing. Feel free to try to enlighten me. This is simply not computing for me.

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AznHisoka
That's what AskMen is for.

