
Vertical Takeoff and Vertical Landing, Now Available for Model Rockets - rbanffy
https://blog.hackster.io/vertical-takeoff-and-vertical-landing-now-available-for-model-rockets-deb766845e4f
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skellera
_The system should also eventually allow a model rocket to land vertically
under thrust, like the Falcon 9, using a second smaller rocket motor._

The title is a little clickbaity. Landing is not yet possible and it even says
so in the article.

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wongarsu
The title literally claims it's available now. That's beyond clickbait.

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wcoenen
Currently the smallest rocket to reach orbit appears to be the SS-520-5,
weighing in at 2.6 metric tons. [1]

I realize that physics is not scale free, and it favors bigger rockets over
smaller because a small rocket has a high dry weight (relative to fueled
weight), experiences more drag (relative to total mass), and probably other
reasons. But I wonder how small a rocket could get and still reach orbit?

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Series_(rocket_family)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Series_\(rocket_family\))

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owenversteeg
What benefits in design do small rockets have? Are there aspects of
construction/aerodynamics/materials/other effects that get easier when the
rocket gets smaller?

(I say this because I'd personally love to see more small rockets reaching
orbit, and I'm wondering how that might be made possible)

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gnode
The primary benefit seems to be the lower cost / mass producibility. An
alternative to making launch vehicles reusable, is to make their production
automated and inexpensive. This is a lot more practical when they're on the
scale of a family car, rather than a container ship.

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aphextron
The legality of these flight computers seems pretty borderline. What's the
legislation around civilian built guided missiles?

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jandrewrogers
A civilian is allowed to _buy_ a guided missile in the US, even importing it
from overseas, as long as they have the correct paperwork and their State
permits it (many do); building one can definitely be permissible. Most of the
restrictions involved in weaponry of this type are related to storage and
handling of hazardous materials, in the same way that you generally aren't
allowed to store large quantities of high explosives in a suburban garage even
though you (until recently) could buy it by the truckload with a driver's
license and cash. There is a hobbyist maker culture of DIY weapon designers in
the US that has been around for many decades, typically in parts of the US
where it is practical to meet safety and legal requirements.

Many people are surprised to discover that as an American you can buy or build
almost any weapon system (if you can afford this expensive hobby) as long as
you meet basic safety, local legal, and export restriction requirements. For
some types of dangerous weapons you may need to file paperwork, but it is more
disclosure than permission.

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coolspot
> Many people are surprised to discover that as an American you can buy or
> build almost any weapon system

Citation needed.

At very least in CA, NY, NJ civilian absolutely can not buy/build/posses
suppressors for guns, short barrel rifles (SBR), select-fire guns, grenade
launchers or any live high explosive devices.

In some states you can build a pipe bomb [2] or buy a grenade having per unit
permission from NFA [1]

[1] - [https://reddit.com/r/nfa](https://reddit.com/r/nfa)

[2] -
[https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/comments/5ffugm/nfa_registered_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/comments/5ffugm/nfa_registered_pipebomb/)

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jandrewrogers
No citation needed, there is no prohibition in Federal law, only State law,
and you cherrypicked the most restrictive States in the nation as your
exemplars. For example, something like 40+ States permit suppressors. High-
explosives was (is? probably with more paperwork now) a retail business in
many states; I stopped by one once just to check it out for myself, the only
requirement was that I had a vehicle that met road safety requirements for
transport e.g. carried on a surface that is not prone to sparking.

I had a couple friends many years ago who, mostly for fun I suspect because
they never did anything with it, filled out the relatively simple Federal
paperwork that gave them carte blanche to import/manufacture/buy just about
any conventional weapon you can think of and they lived in a State with no
restrictions. But almost no one does in practice because once you go beyond
what is possible to fabricate in a sophisticated machine shop, it would become
an extremely expensive hobby for no obvious purpose. Few people can afford to
drop millions of dollars on guided missiles.

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Ftuuky
"The system costs $299, and is only available for sale to residents and
citizens of the United States due to ITAR restrictions."

Can someone explain why a toy has such restrictions? Could you actually build
a missile using these gizmos? If yes then we live in fascinating/frightening
times, where a kid with youtube and some moocs can develop sophisticated
weapons.

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foxyv
I don't see why this would be a problem. Especially considering you can
purchase drones with MUCH larger payloads and ranges. Drones are scary when
you stop long enough to think about the possible nefarious uses.

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Animats
Here's a guided rocket built by a 13-year old girl.[1] Launches at an angle,
and then goes vertical. From 2013.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTND_wot9zI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTND_wot9zI)

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dizzydot
Stabilized, not guided, but pretty cool!

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ballooney
Hobby model rocket people have been doing this for some time, e.g. this effort
which is about two decades old:

[http://michael.sdf-eu.org/Gyroc/](http://michael.sdf-eu.org/Gyroc/)

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anfractuosity
Just wondering if someone might be able to answer some naive questions:

With thrust vectoring landing, does it fire another motor when landing?

Do you also need to control the amount of thrust somehow when landing too,
with a black powder motor is that possible ?

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zaarn
Well, you could do it with a black powder motor if you calculate the burn time
such that during the landing phase the TWR of the entire rocket dips below 1
until a descent velocity is achieved and then stays at 1 until landing where
you need a bit over 1.

TL;DR extremely (impossibly) hard but not completely impossible if you solve
the above problem.

You need atleast a hybrid motor IMO, something where you can control the
thrust atleast partially (below and above 1 TWR).

Whether or not you use the same motor for landing or takeoff is another
question, you can use the same motor for both if it has enough fuel and TWR.

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anfractuosity
Thanks a lot for your reply, that makes a lot of sense!

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JulianMorrison
Q: What do you call a model rocket with thrust vectoring?

A: About half of a civilian owned guided missile.

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trhway
not every civilian. If i remember correctly - after reading about amateur
launches of like 10ft+ rockets - you have to have some kind of explosive
related license to enjoy such rockets.

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gjkood
Yes, different licences for different impulse classes of rocket motors.

More details can be found on the National Association of Rocketry website
([http://www.nar.org](http://www.nar.org)).

Level 1[1], Level 2[2] and Level 3[3] certifications.

[1] [http://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-1-hpr-
cert...](http://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-1-hpr-
certification/)

[2] [http://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-2-hpr-
cert...](http://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-2-hpr-
certification/)

[3] [http://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-
info/level-3-certific...](http://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-
info/level-3-certification/)

