
College Grads Taking Low-Wage Jobs Displace Less Educated - JumpCrisscross
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-06/college-grads-taking-low-wage-jobs-displace-less-educated.html
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gregpilling
I have a manufacturing company (started in 2004), and since 2008 the number of
overqualified applicants has been huge. I have hired mechanical engineers as
personal assistants, a person with a bachelors of mathematics as a nanny, and
hired another mechanical engineer away from Pizza Hut to do CAD work (which
does not require a degree, a 2 year community program is fine).

We get unsolicited applications all the time, and the variety of education and
backgrounds is large. Who would you hire though? The person with several DUI
convictions who just got out of jail, or the engineering graduate who hasn't
been able to find work in their field for 2 years? I have had both apply for a
low-level warehouse job, at the same time.

It is a tough job market out there.

~~~
nchuhoai
If I may ask, if you have two comparatively skilled/driven/smart workers for
the same job, would you choose the one with the college degree?

I do think there are a lot of people where college is not a value-add to their
skillset, yet it seems like going to college solely for that edge is
neccessary

~~~
rayiner
> If I may ask, if you have two comparatively skilled/driven/smart workers for
> the same job, would you choose the one with the college degree?

Because you have no idea whether they are comparably skilled/driven/smart,
especially for relatively entry-level positions, and you can't afford to spend
too much time digging to figure it out. You do know that at least one had it
together enough to apply for/get into/graduate from college.

~~~
gregpilling
That is my wife's argument. She says that a college degree means that you were
smart enough to get a college degree.

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spindritf
Or, people who needlessly went to college take jobs they would be doing
anyway.

~~~
lucasnemeth
Do you sincerely think History is a complete waste of time, a useless human
endeavor?

You see... It would be great if people had better history/sociology knowledge,
I don't know about you, but I don't want to live in a technocratic dystopia.
The fact that these fields are seem as "useless" is a terrible thing.

~~~
Perdition
Why do you need to go to university to to improve your knowledge of history or
sociology?

A degree in history or sociology is seen as useless because it mostly is
outside academia. The people who are good in the field will most likely end up
on the academic track, and those who aren't will most likely end up in low
paying jobs having wasted several years and tens of thousands of dollars.

The problem isn't history or sociology degrees, it is people thinking that a
degree is a ticket to a good job.

~~~
jrs99
But the guy in the article wants to be a High School teacher. It's not like
the guy wants to be some historian at some institution. And a college degree
is probably something you really want if you want to become a High School
teacher.

Is it wrong for him to think that he needs a college degree in order to teach
high school? What are his chances of teaching high school WITHOUT a degree?

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JanezStupar
I think that having college educated historians as high school history
teachers is a terrible waste of resources.

~~~
jerf
Oh, well, good news then, if you actually examine the curriculum requirement
for being a history teacher and compare it to getting a degree in straight-up
history, you'll see that the teacher is not required to take anywhere near as
much, and the teacher will not take the really hard history courses that grade
in terms of reams of essay writing.

Some teachers take the initiative to double-major of their own free will
(respect!), but it is certainly not _required_. When I was in school I
casually assumed that my teachers knew a great deal more about the subjects
than what they were teaching; when I got to University and had the opportunity
to look at their curricula requirements I learned that was not true, at least
not in general.

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IndieDevClub
To get a low-wage job I had to lie on my resume. Retail stores won't hire you
if you put down you have a CS degree and a few years programming experience.
They want long-term desperate people. I was desperate but it looked too much
like I would bail first chance I get.

Why would I want a shitty job? Well I needed money and I never break the 1st
and 2nd rule of my club:
[http://www.indiedeveloperclub.com](http://www.indiedeveloperclub.com)

~~~
mattgreenrocks
Looks like you might get flagged for spam, but that's a cool idea!

~~~
IndieDevClub
Yeah I think I double-posted while in anti-procrastination mode.

I don't want to spam, but I want some people to join my club.

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qstyk
The key takeaway from this article should be that 1980's-style resume and
application bombing doesn't work, nearly as well as it used to. The market
moved on and became more advanced. Using 1980's skillsets and techniques will
yield the same disappointing results that using 1980's technology does.

My favorite part is where the journalist points out that those that are better
educated earn more. Ceteris paribus, one would think it would be obvious that
a better product / tool / employee would be worth more.

~~~
beagle90
Ceteris paribus == "all other things being equal"

~~~
turnip1979
That econ course is paying off for all of us I see :)

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cschmidt
As a random data point, at the salon where my wife has her hair cut, about
half the stylists have college degrees. Plus their training to cut hair. I'd
never heard of that before, but I guess it has become a fallback job that pays
reasonably well.

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aviraldg
Does this apply to CS majors? (I'm about to start college this fall)

Edit:

\- I'll be studying in the US.

\- I'm already a (somewhat) experienced developer.

\- I'm interested in CS theory (but not that great at math, atm.)

~~~
rmc
No, if you can programme, there are oodles of highly paid jobs in tech

~~~
turnip1979
Correct for the most part. With some exceptions.

I've seen a bright kid from Italy act very despondent. He was convinced there
was no way to have a decent career in his country. I gave him a pep talk but
it did make me wonder:

\- are we in a temporary bubble of high salaries?

\- how long-lived is the technical career? I see people get progressively
despondent in their 40s and 50s. Unlike other fields, I don't think we treat
our elders with respect.

\- tech is notoriously inward looking (a toll on the mind). we also have
ridiculously sedentary jobs (a toll on the body)

I am so addicted/madly in love with computers that I can't see myself doing
anything else. But I am practical about stuff like housing costs and
retirement. I see a very real possibility that the economics of tech will turn
around and salaries will take a hit. Already, I've hit a salary wall (around
130K), which doesn't take you that far in expensive parts of the world. My MBA
friends seem to be doing a bit better now - what is worrying me is that they
get better/get paid better with age. Lets see how long I last ...

Btw, under 35 here.

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mattgreenrocks
> are we in a temporary bubble of high salaries?

There's no guarantee. I worry about the same thing.

> I don't think we treat our elders with respect

This is why software is an extremely immature discipline.

* We don't want to use discipline because it hurts our 'flow' (JS semicolon debacle)

* We don't learn from the past ("coupling's not real!")

* We don't respect our elders...unless, of course, you're famous (e.g. Carmack)

I love building things, but the sentiment (at least on HN) is disgustingly
populist at times. It's like the whole industry tries to make itself mediocre.

~~~
andyzweb
nothing succeeds like mediocrity

~~~
mattgreenrocks
Good insight. Mediocrity asks so little of people that they never become
defensive.

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Bahamut
The job market is pretty horrible for those with no experience - I spent 2
years looking for a job before getting fed up and started teaching myself
programming in an effort to make myself an attractive entry-level hire, and I
possess a masters.

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scrabble
It all depends on what you're doing. I have no degree and started out manning
the phones in a level 1 position on a help desk.

Almost anyone was able to get a job doing it. I was competent so I excelled
and moved up fast. After getting 3 promotions in 18 months it was reasonably
easy to get a better job elsewhere.

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K0nserv
The example in the article are not very good. Obvisouly a deegre with low
demand and a poor job market is not going to result in a good job. Jobs in
health care and STEM are in huge demand in the US, history majors not so much

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mathattack
An open question: What's the impact of a minimum wage in a situation like
this? Does it discourage the college educated from leaving the McDonalds job
"because it pays the same as that ad agency job anyways"?

~~~
gregpilling
I think that a person with a passion for advertising/marketing would much
rather work in their chosen field than serving food.

~~~
mathattack
It's a pay cut (sometimes unpaid internships are required) and the pay cut is
getting worse. But really this is really decision making on the margin. If
someone is already willing to work at minimum wage for a job they're
overqualified for, what's it mean when you mandate a raise for them? (And to
the people who are adequately qualified, but not overqualified)

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bennesvig
The key for people taking low-wage low-skill jobs after college (I've been one
- valet/data entry) is to always do something related to what you really want
to do, even if you have to do it for free.

