
Spaces: A New Way to Connect with Friends in VR - kilimchoi
https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2017/04/facebook-spaces/
======
aresant
If there's a bull case on FB to me it starts with the release of this Facebook
Spaces beta.

Spaces - or something like it - along with an eventual great set of AR glasses
or contact lenses - is the end game.

There's no question the long goal for corporate AR is to digitize the entire
physical world, catalog it, and then sell outrageously effective ad inventory
/ flair against everything that we see.

Using a fairly controlled VR environment as the beta case for this to get us
all hooked is a huge step in the right direction and they already own the
entire social graph to execute in this direction.

I don't know whether I should be excited or terrified that it's FB leading
this effort.

They have the scale to execute, they have the technology to support the
crucial relationships but they are SO FUCKING INVASIVE into our lives as a
company.

Raph Koster's lecture at GDC got some fairly broad attention on this concept,
although his was geared more to the potential negative consequences, but it's
still 100% worth a watch for anybody interested in the space.

[https://www.raphkoster.com/2017/03/05/slides-for-still-
logge...](https://www.raphkoster.com/2017/03/05/slides-for-still-logged-in-my-
gdc-talk/)

~~~
RangerScience
_> > There's no question the long goal for corporate AR is to digitize the
entire physical world, catalog it, and then sell outrageously effective ad
inventory against everything that we see._

From working in industrial AR for awhile, this is a tiny, _tiny_ tip of the
iceberg. The (actually very reasonable) buzzword bingo is smart contracts +
blockchain + reality capture + HMI = rather a lot more than better
advertising.

~~~
str33t_punk
what do smart contracts and block chain have to do with AR?

~~~
RangerScience
AR is a human interface (transparent head mounted display) plus reality
capture.

HMD lets humans interface with the world of the computer. Reality capture lets
the computer interface with the world of humans.

Reality capture feeds smart contracts; if the AR cameras see you're low on
some stock, "the computer" can order more, and direct the people to pick them
up. Smart contracts are a reasonable mechanism for doing that.

Block chain is a shared ledger that's suitable for multiple entities tracking
anything (say, reality) together, and a communications medium that's good for
things that need to be auditable (say, tasks).

~~~
DonHopkins
Do block chains necessarily require wasting as much electricity as bitcoin
mining?

~~~
RangerScience
No. Think of blockchains as formalizing consensus reality. Each block, some
"lucky" processing node (miner) somewhere gets to determine what that
consensus actually is. The various techniques (proof-of-work, -stake, -etc)
more or less make it hard for a bad actor to be that "lucky" node.

BC does this by letting everyone submit answers, but making it really hard
(computationally intensive, aka, burn electricity) for your answer to the be
the one that's accepted.

PeerCoin (to pick one) does this by making your likelihood of being The One
correlate with your investment in the worth of the coin (literally how many of
the coins you control). If you're the One, either your answer is accepted, or
you're selected to give the answer, and then it's accepted - I'm not sure
which.

You can also limit participation in your blockchain in combination with these;
for example, a closed (invite-only) bitcoin would still burn electricity, but
not nearly as much.

------
creaghpatr
>We want Facebook Spaces to be a comfortable place for everyone. You have
control of your experience, including the ability to pause at any time.
Pausing moves you into a quiet space where you can take a break away from
other people and activities. You can also choose to mute your friends or
remove them from your space. Facebook Spaces is all about connecting with
friends and family that you know and trust, and we’re committed to making VR a
positive place for all.

The psychological implications my goodness...

~~~
unknown2374
umm the muting part reminds me of the black mirror episode "white christmas".
Hopefully it doesnt come to that

~~~
tpolischuk
Muting is absolutely necessary. Play any online video game for 5 minutes and
you'll understand it's a necessity.

~~~
AnkhMorporkian
As a general concept I agree, but this is limited to your facebook friends.
This isn't randomly joining a multiplayer server, this is intentionally adding
friends to a space. Ostensibly, you should know them. Adding muting
capabilities seems like some weird power play that'll just lead to bullying.
If you don't want someone there, just remove them. Hell, unfriend them.

~~~
joshuamorton
And you've been able to mute people in various group voice chat programs (made
for talking with friends) since forever.

------
hunta2097
I see Facebook are still pretending the HTC Vive and SteamVR is not a thing.

Oculus need to support other headsets or they are going to fall even further
behind. Win the mindshare where you can, because you are certainly not
anywhere near winning the PC-VR space.

~~~
t0mbstone
Yep.

All they have to do is release Facebook Spaces for the HTC Vive. Why not? Why
tie themselves to only one VR platform? That would be like Facebook only
supporting iPhones.

My guess is that the higher-ups are suffering from the sunken cost fallacy,
and think that they have to stay exclusive to the Rift to justify their Oculus
purchase. After all, if they support the Vive, why did they need to purchase
Oculus in the first place?

~~~
cr0sh
Why not an open API for that matter? What if I want to use my Virtuality HMD,
hacked PowerGlove and surplus Ascension Flock-of-Birds rig to drop into a VR
world? Why shouldn't I be able to do that if I have the equipment and skills
to get it to work?

BTW - I actually do own all of that equipment (collecting older VR gear is a
side hobby of mine).

An open API will allow for any VR gear manufacturer to participate.

Think about it this way - what if in the beginning, Facebook only supported
Dell branded PCs - or more realistically, only Mozilla on Linux - back when
they started? Do you think they'd have been as successful? No way to know, of
course, but only supporting one (or a few) manufacturer's devices doesn't seem
like the best way forward for quick market saturation.

Whereas an open api would allow for far more people to get into the game; and
if things started to take off, you would also see new independents spring up
to sell lower cost HMDs, VR rigs, tracking systems, etc as demand heated up.

------
return0
> Be Yourself in VR

If second life shows anything, people want to be someone else in VR.

~~~
news_to_me
If anonymous Youtube comments show anything, some people want to be complete
assholes in VR.

~~~
mysterydip
So are they being themselves, or someone else? :)

~~~
username223
It _was_ named "iD Software," after all...

------
bronz
the seriousness that vr and vr social apps are addressed with is dumbfounding
to me. watch the video at the bottom of the page -- this is a huge joke.
nobody will ever put on a headset and grab their controllers when they could
just use skype. skype, which is much less hassle and gives you a real face to
face experience with the other persons actual face. vr/ar contact lenses are
never coming within a window of time that any of us care about. vr in general
will remain a useless gimmick for longer than any of us are willing to wait,
probably well past all of our deaths. im sick and tired of vr hype.

~~~
germinalphrase
I've always found Skype/Facetime/etc. to be off-putting - if only because by
looking at the person I'm talking to forces me to appear to look under them
(looking at the screen vs looking the camera). During interviews, I make the
conscious effort to look at the camera so as to present a more normal eye
contact for my viewer, but this undercuts my ability to read their physical
responses. If I had true-to-size representation of a person, either in VR or
with a 2D screen, that allowed me to use natural eye contact and body language
I would use it far more often.

~~~
Stanleyc23
anecdote: a week ago I tried to get on Skype with a coworker, he couldn't hear
me. we hop on google handouts, now I can't hear him. we ended up just falling
back to a phone call.

I don't find the life sized hologram thing to be that valuable. I would much
rather all that money go into a zero-latency, high quality video/audio
experience. life sized holograms don't solve this fundamental quality of
communication issue.

am I just being a curmudgeon?

~~~
sAbakumoff
Reminded the good old-fashioned scene from HBO's Silicon Valley
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2prsYbV1TkM](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2prsYbV1TkM)

------
JBReefer
This is super, super weird but could be huge.

It's very Black Mirror, it sort of makes me uncomfortable but I can't explain
why. I think it could be a much better version of what Facebook is trying to
be, but .... something's off.

------
throwaway29292
Very interesting. At this point, there may be many smaller startups that are
more innovative or have higher quality VR apps, but if they are competing
against FB's massive hold on all aspects of everyday life, there isn't much
doubt who the winner will be.

More experienced peers, who lived in times when IBM or Microsoft seemed to be
all-pervasive (like FB/Google are today): Do you think these companies will
fade away in the next few decades? Or they will go on to be 100-year old
companies, like today's car/oil companies.

~~~
drewmate
I'm maybe not _that_ experienced, but I do think that FB/Google are
fundamentally different. Microsoft and IBM's 'products' depreciated very
quickly. 5-year old software just isn't worth as much as brand new software
(especially during that era.) Data, on the other hand, is like a wine that
just gets better with age. FB's info about you only gets more valuable the
longer they keep getting it. As long as FB/Google have active users, the moats
around their businesses will likely seem impenetrable.

~~~
username223
People age and die, though. I doubt FB will implode like MySpace, but oldsters
like me, who got tangled up in its webs back when it was only open to ".edu"
addresses, will die off. Then FB will have lots of data on corpses, which can
no longer click on ads. It can frantically copy rivals for awhile, but once
the first generation of kids stops bothering to sign up, it's on its way to
the nursing home.

------
pmontra
I watched the presentation. The most striking feature is that the avatar is
created automatically from profile photos. It's probably possible to game the
system, but the default is an avatar that looks like the real person. Compare
this with Second Life avatars, if you've been there 10 years ago: they
defaulted to some different 20-25 yo person. Not that the avatar of the
speaker didn't look younger than she was, but it was still her.

I think this has to do with making Spaces a "comfortable place for everyone",
where you recognize your friends and don't mingle with strangers. It means
it's an extension of the real world and actually many of the Spaces in the
video were overlays over the real world. It goes more in the direction of
augmented reality than virtual reality.

They also presented some interesting stuff in the areas of object recognition,
2D pics to 3D scene transformations, interacting with objects in those scenes,
simultaneous localization and mapping (setting virtual objects precisely at a
position). Technologically they were the most interesting announcements, in my
opinion.

The news about Messenger were somewhat underwhelming: smart replies, M
suggestions, game challenges, chat extensions. Interesting but not ground
breaking. I'm still waiting for end to end encryption to chatbots (encryption
is granted on the network but FB's servers see the messages in clear) and for
WhatsApp bots.

~~~
shostack
That also removes a layer of anonymity which, in theory isn't needed because
you would be conversing with family and friends. But the second you get other
people in the mix, you'll really wish you had the ability to NOT look like
yourself.

------
excalibur
This looks exactly like every other social VR app, and is probably ripping off
elements from several. (Of course, one could argue that social VR has been
borrowing from Facebook all along.)

------
elvinyung
I can't wait until cyberspace _literally_ becomes a consensual hallucination.

------
Existenceblinks
Do they have psychologists or psychology department in VR team/department?

After facebook era, I don't really buy what facebook is building. That doesn't
seems to be a right social network (driving people crazy, lonely, unhealthy
addicted, etc.)

If we are going to go full healthy virtual world, please think carefully.

I used to live in a city (Bangkok) that has most active facebook users in the
world. The society is sick. When everyone is psychopathic, no one knows who
is. That's bad to me, then I moved out to a peaceful city in the northeastern,
closed facebook account. Life is going normal now.

~~~
cr0sh
> The society is sick. When everyone is psychopathic

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? In what way is the society of Bangkok
"sick and psychopathic"?

------
accountyaccount
These avatars creep me out.

~~~
magic_beans
I'm surprised they are so creepy looking. You'd think Facebook could afford a
decent illustrator to mock up the avatars? But knowing Facebook they're
probably algorithmically generated avatar images...

~~~
spyspy
"Uncanny valley"

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley)

~~~
RugnirViking
Uncanny valley is not the explanation for all creepy looking models. It is
specifically a problem with very realistic looking models and textures not
being quite right, for a variety of reasons. These models are not attempting
to be realistic, nor are they particularly close.

------
wonderwonder
Facebook is an advertising platform, their main goal is to get new accounts
and usage. They are going to get a lot of mileage with this via the API.

Developers will create useful and unexpected applications with this and in
order to use the new apps you will need a facebook login.

It generates new users for them and helps to prevent someone else from
stealing their user base.

------
gallerdude
I mean (besides it being Facebook), this is all well and good, but I don't see
this being mainstream until VR headsets see some sort of mainstream. I guess
this is some kind of chicken and egg problem, and Facebook wants to be at the
forefront either way, but I can only see this being a very niche blend of
Skype.

------
dougmwne
This is a pretty clever way to avoid the uncanny valley for VR
videoconferencing. I assume we're a long way from photorealistic avatars based
on the holoportation demo from MS.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d59O6cfaM0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d59O6cfaM0)

~~~
jameslk
The Holoportation video feels a lot less cringe worthy and cheesy to me. At
least there's a lot more body language that's being captured, which feels more
natural. Their example of being able to record real life in 3D, play it back,
and walk around in the experience also seems more innovative. But of course
it's much further away from being ready to use unlike Spaces.

------
pavel_lishin
> _It’s easy to create an identity that represents the real you in Facebook
> Spaces. This helps people recognize you and makes VR feel more like hanging
> out in person._

Can someone remind me if they still require you to go by your full legal name,
or do they let you identify yourself the way you prefer to?

------
rl3
While this probably is the future some day, I suspect that it will flop in the
interim—creating a sort of _Google Glass_ effect that turns people off to VR.

I'm sure they don't have many choices from a technical perspective, but the
cartoon avatars are kind of creepy if not cringe-inducing.

------
peterchon
This would be a great way for people with mobility issues to be included in
activities.

------
Svexark
It's like those services that popped up in the 90s that tried to translate
things into the internet age. Like the service that would use your printer to
print an entire newspaper for you ever morning.

------
snickerbockers
Wow, those avatars actually look more obnoxious than the Nintendo Miis.

------
stagbeetle
It's a cool gimmick -- and bordering on being a SecondLife spin-off -- but it
won't ever replace face-to-face interaction, with digital models.

------
__mp
I can definitely see some usecases of these experiences. Not wanting to sound
too negative, I would prefer to meet the people in person and drink a beer,
eat a meal than to lounge around in some virtual room. I see the allure of it
if you are staying in a place that is hard to reach. But travel itself is also
an experience that can be enjoyed - even more so if it is far away and exotic.

~~~
_pius
_Not wanting to sound too negative, I would prefer to meet the people in
person and drink a beer, eat a meal than to lounge around in some virtual
room._

Sure. But once you've had the experience of your circle of friends dispersing
to different cities, the appeal becomes immediately obvious.

~~~
__mp
Actually I am in this position. I rather visit the people and enjoy a weekend
with them than put on a VR headset. Also it's a great excuse to go away for a
weekend. And if it has to be something interactive I found video conferences
quite practical. Also if a meeting is important I prefer to be present than
remote because it is easier to gauge reactions of people.

~~~
Applejinx
I've got a circle of friends I see more often than anyone else, but only on
TeamSpeak whilst gaming. I would absolutely love to visit them, but we are all
without exception too poor to do any such thing, so it's impossible.

I suspect this will play into the success or failure of Facebook Spaces. How
many people are on Facebook with enough tech to do this (in its crude low-poly
way) but who are also far too poor to flit about physically visiting those
they love?

------
rosalinekarr
This looks like it will have the same problem as early bluetooth headsets: you
look crazy using them. As well as they can get it to work and as popular as it
becomes among early adopters, it will never really catch on with the general
public because most people are too afraid of looking like an idiot to use it
in public.

~~~
news_to_me
I dunno, this seems to be more useful when you're chilling at home chatting
with your friends on Facebook Messenger. It doesn't matter how it looks if
it's just you in the living room.

I'd say the real problem is that chat is good enough - it's why Google
Hangouts never really took off as a place to "hang out"

------
jumpkickhit
So avatars are limited.

Makes sense, but it could also open up a way to sell premium avatars. Or
really, rent their use.

If I could design my own avatar, then pay $10 a month for it to be approved
and then available to just myself in various online spaces, that would be very
cool.

~~~
philsnow
straight out of neuromancer

------
DavidBachmann
I hope I'm wrong but I think we'll look at this in 5 years and laugh.

~~~
pavel_lishin
I don't think it'll take that long.

------
squiggy22
oh great. now my kids have even less of a reason to go outside. thanks fb!

------
acchow
Second Life v2?

~~~
mintplant
The company behind Second Life is already working on a VR-centric "Second Life
v2", with what seems to me a more interesting vision of the metaverse than
Facebook Spaces.

[http://www.wsj.com/video/creating-virtual-reality-
worlds/E18...](http://www.wsj.com/video/creating-virtual-reality-
worlds/E180E596-4DBA-4F53-B2D2-7A3A3D702D0D.html)

There's also High Fidelity, an open source, distributed VR metaverse started
by the founder of the same company.

[https://highfidelity.io/](https://highfidelity.io/)

~~~
a_t48
It's not called "Second Life v2" it's called Sansar.

~~~
mintplant
I didn't mean that literally, although it _was_ originally announced as
"Second Life 2".

~~~
DonHopkins
Not "Third Life"?

------
swalsh
If you want to try it out, but have a Vive... apparently ReVive works.

------
meheleventyone
I'd really like them to offer their avatar system for other applications.
Identity is so much part of social VR and it would be great to share it
between apps.

------
aphextron
Available now on the Oculus Store™ with Oculus Rift®!

------
synaesthesisx
Increasingly relevant:

[https://theintercept.com/2016/12/23/virtual-reality-
allows-t...](https://theintercept.com/2016/12/23/virtual-reality-allows-the-
most-detailed-intimate-digital-surveillance-yet/)

Emotion detection as a service? I'll pass.

