

Caring for your introvert - kwamenum86
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200303/rauch.htm

======
tdavis
My favorite quote:

 _many actors, I've read, are introverts, and many introverts, when
socializing, feel like actors_

When I talk to strangers, I often internally wonder to myself (during the
conversation), "Can this person tell I actually have no interest in what
they're saying, or am I properly feigning it?"

It seems that only after I come to know someone well (or I'm discussing a
topic dear to me) can I manage to have a real interest in what they say, so I
spend most time acting in social situations. Sometimes I'll dedicate effort to
summoning all my ability to appear to care, but other times I just won't
bother.

I've also found that at times when I have to both maintain my act and keep up
with my internal monologue (or whatever it is), I lose the ability to retain
the information being provided. For instance, until I've spoken with someone a
few times, I will be unable to remember their name. I'll likely never remember
what they just told me more than a few hours after it was said, either, unless
it was exceptionally memorable. When trying to get me to remember someone, it
usually requires a few examples of things they've said/done and a lot of
context to piece them back together.

Think of all the effort; people are far more tiring than programming!

~~~
Goronmon
_I've also found that at times when I have to both maintain my act and keep up
with my internal monologue (or whatever it is), I lose the ability to retain
the information being provided. For instance, until I've spoken with someone a
few times, I will be unable to remember their name. I'll likely never remember
what they just told me more than a few hours after it was said, either, unless
it was exceptionally memorable. When trying to get me to remember someone, it
usually requires a few examples of things they've said/done and a lot of
context to piece them back together._

Man, this describes exactly how I feel when meeting new people and why I find
it so draining.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Actually, once I realized that I'll never remember their name anyway, I
stopped fretting so much about trying to memorize their name, or what they
look like, or pretty much anything else about them.

If I never see them again anyway, who cares; and if I see them again enough
times, that information will start to stick naturally.

~~~
Evgeny
It's a second and third time that may get embarassing though.

You still have not seen this person enough times, but everyone around already
knows that you've been introduced. And then you need to call this person by
the name. Ugh! Hate these moments. :)

~~~
tdavis
I won't go into details to spare the person shame, but this happened to me
recently. I hope people aren't as adept as I am at reading expressions,
because they would have instantly noticed I had no idea who they were as I was
shaking their hand, despite seeing them only weeks earlier.

------
wallflower
We had a team bonding day in which we were split up randomly into small
groups. Random or not, the group I was put on was all introverts. We were
given a problem [a clever problem-solving exercise] and the observer (who was
an extrovert) noted that (to him) 'it was like they were all just staring at
the puzzle for 5 minutes. They were just sitting there thinking. No one in the
group said much of anything until they arrived at a silent consensus.'
Contrast that to other groups where members debated the relative merits of
their solutions. We won the game.

In another company exercise, done after a Myers-Briggs session, they split the
I's and E's into groups. And then they said (hypothetically) 'You have the day
off. What do you guys want to do with the day? You have $100 each'. The I's
were like - I'm gonna read a book, run errands etc. And the E's were like -
'Who's going to Vegas? Party at our house.' The E's were planning parties
while the I's were planning alone time.

It really doesn't matter if you're an I or an E. Or switch between I/E. As
long as you can accept yourself. The rule of thumb I use for I/E orientation
is does that person get energized around other people...

~~~
briancooley
_The rule of thumb I use for I/E orientation is does that person get energized
around other people..._

In social situations, I often find interaction tiring. The one exception for
me is highly intellectually stimulating conversation. It doesn't necessarily
have to be anything deep; it could be witty repartee or even trading quotes
from favorite movies. Though the latter seems juvenile, something about the
act of recall feels extremely rewarding and rejuvenating.

A close friend of mine calls it "mental sex," a phrase she apparently borrowed
from the popular television show _House_.

~~~
arohner
_I often find interaction tiring. The one exception for me is highly
intellectually stimulating conversation._

I've noticed that my I/E orientation differs based on who I am around. Around
good friends and generally intelligent people, I am more E. Around people I'm
less familiar with, or people I assume I will not be interested in, I am much
more I. If I've done a lot of socializing in the last few days, I am more
likely to be I.

------
philh
I had difficulty getting past the "my tribe is better than your tribe" stuff.

"If we introverts ran the world, it would no doubt be a calmer, saner, more
peaceful sort of place."

"I suppose this common misconception has to do with our being more
intelligent, more reflective, more independent, more level-headed, more
refined, and more sensitive than extroverts."

Really. I suppose this might be true on average, but this makes it hard to
take the article seriously.

~~~
timr
_"I had difficulty getting past the 'my tribe is better than your tribe'
stuff."_

Agreed. What really bugs me about this sort of piece (and about a huge number
of comments in this thread), is that they tend to fetishize introversion, and
make it a crutch. Introversion is clearly a real trait (and I'm one of those
people who needs quiet time to "recharge"), but it's too easy to turn
introversion into an excuse to avoid challenging situations and personal
growth. I don't believe that's a habit to be celebrated.

I used to be much more "introverted" than I am today. Looking back, I can see
that a lot of my formerly quiet behavior was a consequence of plain old
shyness and fear, and I wish I had gotten over it a lot earlier than I did.
For me, those years are lost.

~~~
Goronmon
The article itself seems to specifically differentiate between shyness and
introversion and is more speaking to behaviors while with other people rather
than trying to make excuses for avoiding others. In other words, it's not that
an introvert avoids social interaction, just that an introvert's behavior
during social interaction is different than an extravert's.

At least, that's the way I interpreted it.

------
FiveFiftyOne
Odd. I've been an introvert for my whole life, and this is the first time I've
ever come across such a brilliant description of what's going through my mind
when I'm propelled into a crowd of people and asked to endure the hot air and
noise they call socializing. I'm not shy either, yet I've always lacked the
compunction to talk for the sake of filling a silence. Thanks for the link.
It's been mailed to all the people who've called me an anti-social bastard
down the years :)

~~~
lukifer
"90% of all human communication is 'I'm still here. Are you still there?'" -
Timothy Leary

For many people, words are incidental, and the actual communication occurs
based on facial expressions and body language. For those of us who like
language specifically for communicating complex and interesting ideas, this
phenomenon is exasperating.

~~~
donaq
So you're saying we prefer less ping/ack packets and more data packets. Put
that way, it appears that the primary problem when introverts communicate with
extroverts is that we use incompatible protocols. I wonder if we could write a
codec for this.

------
swombat
I don't like the whole introvert vs extrovert divide. I am extremely
introverted in some situations and extremely extroverted in others. I think I
tend more towards the introverted side, sure, but I do plenty of things which
smack more of the attention-seeking extrovert. Also, while I'm often shy to
approach new people to start up a conversation (particularly if it revolves
around the dreaded and dreadful "small talk"), when approached by others I
never retreat into my shell - in fact, I come out and have a great
conversation with pretty much anybody.

Perhaps, as the article argues, having introverted tendencies is not a choice,
but giving in to them at the wrong time probably is. We all, extro- or
introverts, have the potential to do both.

~~~
tcskeptic
You may not like the divide, but in my moderately introverted experience, it
is absolutely real. I can be very social and gregarious, but my energy and
ability to recharge comes from solitude. Until I figured this out, and my wife
and I came to an understanding about it, our difference i vs. e was a source
of friction.

I also think it is telling that you speak of introverted tendencies in
language that clearly dissaproves of "giving in" these "introverted
tendencies". In some ways that linguistic construction echoes a moral judgment
being passed on someone for their involuntary orientation. Maybe _you_ can
choose to do both (engage in both introverted and extroverted behaviours) but
there are clearly people further along the continuum than you towards the
introverted side for whom that proposition is much tougher, and in some cases
impossible.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Exactly. When I visit my friends, or go to parties or bars, I can be social,
but I can't do it seven days in a row. If I don't get a few nights to myself
per week, I get crazy and hate my life (and other people's, too.)

------
jackmoore
"The worst of it is that extroverts have no idea of the torment they put us
through. Sometimes, as we gasp for air amid the fog of their 98-percent-
content-free talk, we wonder if extroverts even bother to listen to
themselves."

Listening to someone talk out of their ass is absolute torture. Honestly, it
is something that I have a very difficult time sitting through.

~~~
derekj
Absolutely. I like listening to people talk when I'm interested in what
they're saying and want to communicate with them, but when someone (like a co-
worker) babbles on about their kids' baseball games or something, it is hell.
I don't care! Stop talking!

This article spoke to about 90% of me. I've been introverted all my life
(though less so in the past few years) but have always done pretty good with
speaking in front of a group or acting in a school play or whatever. It's when
there's a large group with many different conversations going on where I end
up not talking to anyone and begin to feel like an outsider. One-on-one
though, I can have a conversation with just about anyone. It usually takes the
form of - They talk, I ask questions, they keep talking.

~~~
cvboss
I think when they are telling you a story, even a boring and a stupid one it's
okay, but the problem with Es is that very often you have to listen to their
"mental" process, how ideas are emerging in their brains... now that's really
boring :) "I don't care! Stop talking!" Just give me the answer or final
thought

------
jmtame
Wow. For the introverts reading this, you're going to be nodding your head
through the entire thing. Particularly if you live with an extrovert.

~~~
dgallagher
It's a good article, isn't it? I loved this quote because it fits me like
glue:

"many actors, I've read, are introverts, and many introverts, when
socializing, feel like actors"

I wish the article went into more detail regarding how introverted brains
process information differently than extroverted ones. Anyone have any
information about this?

~~~
ambulatorybird
No information, but here's some personal anecdotal data: I'm definitely an
introvert, but I'm also a bit of a performer. Specifically, I enjoy giving
presentations and lectures, and I always try to make them entertaining. I
think the issue for me is interactivity -- I'm comfortable with noninteractive
performance, but I find sustained interaction to be draining.

~~~
wallflower
> I'm comfortable with noninteractive performance

Thank you. As someone who can and _likes_ to get on stage and do public
speaking/tell personal stories to an audience, I think you've succinctly
described why I like to do that and not mingle. Social hacking, mind hacking,
and mingling techniques aside (which help), even in my most social, I
gravitate towards deep one-on-one over being the entertainer in a loud, group
conversation. And, yes my deep one-on-one smacks of being so lost in listening
that the other person falls in love with talking to you ( _non-interactive_
_again_ )

Makes me wonder if there are more mental hacks to be applied - e.g. if you
think of the group conversation as more non-interactive than interactive will
that help?

As an aside on group conversations (another HN discussion) - I find that I can
handle group conversations better if I don't try to participate (e.g. _non-
interactive_ _yet_ _again_ ). I could listen to conversations all day (I find
the interplay fascinating). I can lose myself in other people's stories (to
the point of my friends saying - are you having a good time? you're _not_
saying _anything_ \- and I usually am.)

~~~
ssanders82
I'm curious, for the "deep one-on-one": is this more often with people you
know well, or casual acquaintances who pique your interest on a particular
subject?

~~~
wallflower
For as long as I can remember, I have had a keen interest in understanding
more about what I don't understand. Observing is my number one passion. Since
I don't understand quite a lot, I can be easily entertained and captivated. I
understand that a lot of people on News.YC want to talk about intellectual
topics - I fancy myself a snob because I feel like I can listen/talk about
anything (as long as the other person is _interested_ in what they are talking
about)

By "deep one-on-one", I mean conversations where I am basically allowing
someone to play the role of 'expert'. Not necessarily deep philosophical
topics. But something the individual is keenly interested and/or passionate
about. It doesn't have to be a person I know well - I've had these fulfilling
mini-conversations with people on a train (and it tends to be
strangers/acquaintances because I keep a moat around myself).

For example, yesterday at our office galley I got into a 5-minute conversation
about soccer (with someone who plays for fun on weekends). I learned that one
of the best ways to become a better soccer dribbler (foot skills) is to
practice kicking a ball in the surf on the beach (because you have the water
resistance to deal with). He also said that the reason why Americans aren't
good at soccer (football) among other reasons is - Americans have perfect
playing fields, while Brazilians, they grow up kicking stuff in the dirt, sand
so the groomed soccer field is easy compared to the rough + tumble environment
they learned on. I love learning about the 'hacks' (to become better faster).

------
matt1
Like others have said, I nodded my head through the entire article--pretty
much describes me 100%.

A few years ago in a psychology class the teacher gave us some drawing tools
and asked us all to draw what we'd be doing on an ideal day. I drew my
girlfriend and I lounging on a beach with a pile of books. The person next to
me drew themselves at a party and other drew themselves parasailing behind a
boat filled with people.

Afterwards we took the Big 5 personality test and compared out
introversion/extroversion results to our pictures and without fail, our
introversion was predicted by the lack of people in our drawings.

------
radu_floricica
Introvert/Extrovert is not a capability as it is a _preference_. It took some
time and pain in my high-school to realize I simply do not enjoy parties and
clubs. I was very surprised by it too, since most of my middle school was full
of stories about how awesome parties will be.

This is a piece of information which should be made available to young people
as early as possible. It's another in the thousands of things schools do not
even try to teach, but they should.

~~~
Ardit20
It is dangerous to label not least because the "my tribe is better than yours"
becomes a spontaneous reaction. People should be left to themselves to figure
out themselves.

------
Silentio
I believe a quote by Soren Kierkegaard is apt in this discussion: "I have just
now come from a party where I was its life and soul; witticisms streamed from
my lips, everyone laughed and admired me, but I went away — yes, the dash
should be as long as the radius of the earth's orbit ——————————— and wanted to
shoot myself."

Funniest thing he ever wrote.

~~~
mkyc
This quote is not about introversion, but about despair (depression?),
isolation, and a poor definition of self.

[http://www.google.ca/search?q="have+just+now+come+from+a+par...](http://www.google.ca/search?q=)

The dash should also come before the word "but".

But then, a quote's whatever you interpret it to be, no?

~~~
Silentio
I did screw up the quote, and I know it is about despair (different than
depression, I think) but it popped into my head. I should have been more
rigorous about getting the quote right. Sorry 'bout that.

------
nonrecursive
I recommend reading "The Introvert Advantage" for a more detailed look at
introversion and advice on dealing with extroverts and situations which favor
extroverts.

------
biohacker42
Old but very good article. For once I'm glad to see something I've seen
before.

------
tigerthink
I'm one of the evil extroverts, and I love it. I'll be happy to answer any of
your questions.

~~~
Ardit20
What did you think of the article? We see the introverts saying it describes
them 100%. The article itself says an extrovert would never understand what
the author speaks of. What did you think of it?

~~~
tigerthink
Well, I think I can relate to the part about having other people make me feel
tired. But that might be just because I was introverted years ago.

In any case, I think I can get along fine with introverts as long as they're
polite. But when my introverted brother interrupts me in mid-sentence and says
"Sorry, I'm not really interested in talking about this", that's a bit much. I
humor people when they want to talk about things I'm not interested in--is it
really that hard?

------
telegraph
Is this really not satire? "Are introverts arrogant? Hardly. I suppose this
common misconception has to do with our being more intelligent, more
reflective, more independent, more level-headed, more refined, and more
sensitive than extroverts."

~~~
sketerpot
I think that part was a joke. But the article as a whole is definitely not
satire; it's an excellent description of how I and many other people feel in
social situations, and a rebuttal of some common misconceptions about us that
have been annoying me for years.

~~~
Ardit20
How is that a joke. It fits neatly how I would have described it. Introverts
are more reflective, the author states that they are a majority amongst the
gifted and perhaps their reflection perhaps leads to sensitivity.

------
systemtrigger
If you get a chance, read the interview with the author. It's a good companion
piece to the article, and maybe even to Why Nerds Are Unpopular:

"They've turned this word 'geek' into a term that's almost romantic in some
ways, and through the Silicon economy, they've been massively innovative and
economically important. A lot of them are running circles around the
extroverts who are selling shoes. So I think part of what's happened lately is
that the digital economy is giving introverts a new place in the sun."

------
behe
Like a breath of fresh air.

