

How Software Companies Die - kajecounterhack
http://diary.carolyn.org/osc.html

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patio11
Post should be titled

"The 437th Time You've Read About Programmer's Tribal Aversion to 'Marketers',
Except This Time Written By Orson Scott Card"

P.S. Let me take a whack at the bee's nest: good software that can't be
marketed, isn't.

~~~
plinkplonk
The central thesis of the article seems to be stated in the first sentence

"The environment that nurtures creative programmers kills management and
marketing types--and vice versa"

Are you saying this is not true? I've been trying to think of a company that
is an exception to this, but i can't. [EDIT maybe Apple?]

I know that Google managers complain that engineers are taken more seriously
in Google then themselves. As for engineers aversion to marketers you are
completely on the money about that.

~~~
tom_rath
I've yet to meet a superb marketer or manager who thrives in a stifling
environment.

That repeated stereotype among techies reflects the closed-mindedness of
cliques rather than some supposed 'liberated' viewpoint of hackers.

~~~
rbanffy
If a marketer or manager thrives in such an environment, there is a good
chance they are mediocre at best.

Creative people keep banging against the limits corporate rules impose on
them. Those who don't bang are not creative.

------
christofd
This is probably due to a longer trend going on since the 70s, where the rise
of the M.B.A., accountant and lawyer started. They don't care about the
product. In general, why would you want a beancounter running a non-commodity
producing company??? I hope this changes soon and these M.B.A. factories stop
churning out people.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
This is probably due to a longer trend going on since the 70s, where the rise
of the programmer, hacker and software enginner started. They don't care about
the business.

Stereotypes are fun!

~~~
gaius
You know, when the MBA degree started, it was intended to teach business
skills to experienced engineers as they were promoted into management roles.
The idea of a "pure manager" MBA who hasn't ever actually done the "real work"
his organization does to make money is a relatively recent one. And _that_ is
the problem with MBAs. Similarly, in many companies, it is possible to be a
project manager having never done any of the projects you are managing. This
usually ends in tears because practitioners never bother to mention "obvious"
things so the PMs lose track of cross-functional dependencies.

------
HeyLaughingBoy
_The environment that nurtures creative programmers kills management and
marketing types--and vice versa_

I disagree with this. True, it kills control freaks, but most management
doesn't start out out like this. The problem is that when people who expect to
be in charge see that they don't have even a minimal level of control, they
start to crack down. And that oppressiveness results in the employees
(programmers in this case) fighting back, often with passive-aggressive
behavior.

Programmers have to accept that they are a part of the problem to start with.
The almost instinctive animosity I see towards management is a sign of this.

Look, you're being managed by someone who doesn't really understand what you
do. Failing to communicate properly (and yes, the greater onus is on the
highly specialized talent to make an effort to communicate with the
unspecialized than vice versa!) means that the person attempting to manage you
doesn't know what you're doing, when it will be done and what he can do to
alleviate problems. Most halfway decent managers just need enough information
to manage. If your response to "when will it be done?" is "dunno" or "it's
done when we're ready" or "between 5 days to three weeks" then you're not
communicating very well and that person is going to think you're deliberately
being vague, _even if you're just being honest._

Second: "creative?" C'mon gimme a break. Most programmers work on business
applications, how "creative" do they need to be in their day to day work? It's
plumbing, not much more. Yes, occasionally you do have serious problems that
need out of box thinking, but in the normal day-to-day work of business
programming if extended creativity is required, something else is wrong.
Programming games or entertainment software or something where you have wide
latitude to make changes, absolutely. Insurance and HR applications? not so
much.

~~~
j3h
Yes, but the programmers working on business applications are already wearing
suits or at least business casual. They are service programmers not product
programmers which, I think, the piece more accurately targets.

The hordes of engineers working on the latest incarnation of
BigRetailBankOnline.com do not produce a product, the banks services are its
product.

------
makaimc
"Put them on a time clock, dress them in suits, and they become sullen and
start sabotaging the product."

So "real" programmers can't dress properly and reject any form of structure?
Can we push these trivial stereotypes aside and instead realize that great
programmers have a range of personalities? Smart people of all backgrounds,
programmers included, rebel against rules that do not make sense. But
rejecting rules does not make you a great programmer.

~~~
neilk
_So "real" programmers can't dress properly and reject any form of structure?_

'Can't' is a strong word, but pretty much.

It's not just a programmer thing. People who are good at _anything_ reject
arbitrary structure. If your power is your talent, an organization which
assigns power based on anything else is an obstacle for you. Nevertheless,
such people can be happy with structure, if it elevates people they consider
to be smarter or more capable than they are.

I don't think it's unique to programmers. The only reason why this phenomenon
is so pronounced in our world is that we have greater than 10:1 productivity
ratios among programmers.

By the way, not following the herd doesn't mean you're just undisciplined. One
of the better programmers I've known wore only t-shirts and rarely even wore
shoes in the office, and was considered half-impossible to deal with. But, he
was actually more aware than the rest of us about how the whole organization
ran, politically, and when he did make concessions, his managers felt like
they had succeeded. Of course, you have to be insanely productive to get away
with this, so it's not for everyone.

~~~
biohacker42
True, programmers, scientists, musicians and other artists good enough to get
paid for their work, anyone like that has little need for suits.

But while I know shoeless programmers I don't look up to them for their
inability to cope with shoes.

A suit is one thing, looking like a hobo another.

------
ams6110
I think this is a view that some subset of developers has, but there's
definitely another camp of developers who thrive in an entrepreneurial
environment with a lot of focus on business success. I'm one. The company I
work at was like that, and has now shifted more towards the "beehive"
described here. I call it "developer day care" and it doesn't motivate me in
the slightest.

------
P3t3r
The Nerds and the Jocks have hated one another since high school. Guess which
professions each group tends to pursue.

------
c00p3r
That is the common case for a small company which was founded by managers of
financial people who do not understand programming at all.

People who are familiar with software development processes are focusing on
code readability and simplicity which means quality, instead of a skills of
coders.

------
jmtame
very slowly

------
huhtenberg
_by Orson Scott Card_

Wow.

