
What happens when you sit at a desk for 13 years and also exercise - deanproxy
http://deanproxy.com/blog/posts/2013/08/13-what-happens-when-you-sit-at-a-desk-for-13-years---and-actually-exercise-.html
======
awjr
I would strongly suggest anyone looking at this and saying they don't have the
time to invest in this to also consider the mental benefits that exercise
brings.

I don't feel I have time (which I know is wrong) and I particularly do not
like gyms, but I cycle to work (2 miles) and on the way home I'll take a
detour and add an extra 5-10 miles to my trip home. It clears the cobwebs.
Cycling can be very meditative as well.

I am extremely lucky to be living in a place that allows me to do this on car
free routes (Bath->Bristol cycle path and the Two Tunnels Circuit).

If you live within 12 miles (and potentially up to 20 miles) of where you work
(about an hour of easy riding), you should consider 'building' exercise into
your commute. Even if it's twice a week to begin with. Be crazy and park your
car 5 miles from work and cycle in from there and build it up.

FYI before starting this I weighed about 310lb and have got myself down to
275lb within a year without focusing too much on what I eat.

~~~
ekidd
If anybody needs to optimize exercise time, also consider high-intensity
interval training (HIIT) and bodyweight or dumbbell exercises. These can both
be done at home, and they consistently have more effect on my overall fitness
than long, medium-intensity cardio.

HIIT is an old, popular technique; it's basically intervals of intense cardio
separated by rest. For an introduction, see Couch-to-5K or the Zombies Run
training app. Bodyweight exercises can be done anywhere. One reasonable
introduction is _You are Your Own Gym_ , but there are others.

If you raise your exercise intensity high enough to force your body to adapt,
you can do a lot in 20 to 30 minutes several times a week without a health
club membership. I'm not saying this is optimal-I'm not at all an expert—but
it's certainly better than nothing, and I generally see far better gains doing
this than when I do long, lower-intensity exercise.

~~~
oh_sigh
c25k isn't HIIT(high intensity interval training). It is just IT.

HIIT would be more like (sprint for 30 seconds, jog for 30 seconds) * 8

~~~
jcmoscon
Also, take a look at Tabata exercises. It's basically 20 seconds of HIIT and
10 seconds of rest. 10 minutes of it and you are sweating a lot!

~~~
vidarh
10 minutes of Tabata is pretty extreme... Starting at 4 minutes will leave
beginners collapsing on the floor if they push themselves to the max...

~~~
deanproxy
I love Tabata! I usually use the "Tabata This" workout from Crossfit (one of
the few workouts I use from that methodology). I break it up like this:
Squats, Pushups, Pullups, Jump rope, situps. So the total routine is about 20
minutes including the 1 minute rests in between each round.

I have started people off on a single round of Tabata which is only 4 minutes
(minus the warmup/cool down periods) and it leaves them laying flat on the
floor if they push themselves to their limits.

------
peterwwillis
My humble advice: Don't be an armchair health & fitness expert. Read up on it
for intellectual stimulation, but don't expect to learn any magical secrets to
being in shape or healthy. All the magical secrets have been known for a long
time, and they're really, really boring.

You should do whatever makes you happy [within reason]. You should probably
not drink 10 sodas and 5 bags of chips a day. But if you feel like having one,
fuck it, life is short. If you feel like standing at your desk, go to town!
Don't expect it to fix your problems. Just enjoy yourself.

If you feel like lifting weights, do that too, but if you don't feel like it,
..... you get the picture. Be active, be healthy-ish, but in terms that you
can enjoy in life. Some people like dancing. Some people like running. Some
people like kicking the shit out of a heavy bag. That's the only real secret
to health & fitness: learning to enjoy it and be happy.

(Personally, the only thing that made me adopt an active lifestyle was group
exercise. Now that i'm more used to the routines I work out by myself or do
sports. But if you find yourself having trouble getting started, try signing
up for a group class with people who seem nice and a good instructor)

~~~
enraged_camel
>>But if you feel like having one, fuck it, life is short.

Yes, life is short. Therefore you should avoid things that will make it even
shorter.

I always hear stuff like "whatever man, you only live once." It seems so
irrational to use that to justify bad habits. If you only live once, should
you not try to increase the length and quality of that life by trying to be in
the best health possible?

~~~
coldtea
> _Yes, life is short. Therefore you should avoid things that will make it
> even shorter._

The second doesn't derive from the first.

If anything, "life is short, so don't obsess about its duration" is a better
guideline.

> _I always hear stuff like "whatever man, you only live once." It seems so
> irrational to use that to justify bad habits. If you only live once, should
> you not try to increase the length and quality of that life by trying to be
> in the best health possible?_

"Bad habits" are some of the most quality time people get to have.

~~~
enraged_camel
If you equate quality with pleasure, sure. If you equate quality with lack of
subsequent pain and discomfort, no.

~~~
coldtea
If you value "lack of pain and discomfort", death would be a very good deal.

------
Amadou
I once knew a guy who thought he could eat as much junk food as he wanted as
long as he made up for it with "super-foods" (moringa MLM scam actually).

Regular workouts don't decrease death risk if you're also a couch potato --
[http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38385104/ns/health-
fitness/](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38385104/ns/health-fitness/)

People who sit for most of the day are 54 percent more likely to die of heart
attacks -- [http://health.yahoo.net/experts/menshealth/most-dangerous-
th...](http://health.yahoo.net/experts/menshealth/most-dangerous-thing-youll-
do-all-day)

Sitting shuts down the circulation of a fat-absorbing enzyme called lipase --
[http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2008/0610-stand_up_for_yo...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2008/0610-stand_up_for_your_health.htm)

~~~
deanproxy
The problem is that there is no evidence that suggest standing in front of a
computer screen helps at all in those situations as well. You're still
stationary. You aren't moving. Moving your feet around below you to adjust the
weight on your legs does nothing for your cardiovascular system.

Unfortunately, as people who are tied to their computer screens for most of
the day, we have very few options. One is to exercise. My story is one of
being in better health than I was when I was in a job moving around all day
just to give some perspective to this topic.

~~~
Amadou
_there is no evidence that suggests standing in front of a computer screen
helps_

From the last of the three links I posted:

"They found that standing up engages muscles and promotes the distribution of
lipase, which prompts the body to process fat and cholesterol, independent of
the amount of time spent exercising. They also found that standing up uses
blood glucose and may discourage the development of diabetes."

~~~
deanproxy
I apologize, I skimmed through that article too quickly.

Nevertheless, I will still hold my position that I was once "Fat", with high
cholesterol and could barely hold my own body up. With what I have stated in
my post, I am now healthy and can do things that most 20 year olds can not do.
So, I guess it works for me pretty well.

~~~
pingvingryta
You could say that standing while working could have positive effects, but
it's not the complete solution for good health.

------
crazygringo
For anyone interested... if you want good posture, if you want to really be in
shape, there are a million fads out there, but the best book by far is
"Starting Strength" [1]. (It's also one of the best-selling on Amazon.)

It essentially focuses on just the squat, deadlift, press, bench press, and
(later) power clean, devoting around _forty pages to each_ , and explains why
you really don't need much else. They're quite difficult to get right, but the
incredibly in-depth explanations will especially appeal to programmers who
like understanding how things work.

I say this just because the book completely changed the way I approach the
gym, and it mirrors what the article author says about the exercises he used.

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-3rd-Mark-
Rippetoe/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-3rd-Mark-
Rippetoe/dp/0982522738/)

~~~
rfnslyr
I can vouch for Starting Strength. If your body sucks, read this book. A lot
of it will go over your head, and you don't need to read every single page,
but once you start, really focus on nailing the three lifts.

I went from 45lb on the bar for all lifts to:

350 squat

475 deadlift

260 bench

290 powerclean

180 snatch

225 c&j

315 front squat

(the last 4 lifts are because I starting getting seriously into pure olympic
lifting).

In under a year. I didn't use any drugs, but what I did do was post a massive
wall-wide calendar on my wall, and in each day were checkboxes for: daily 5g
creatine, daily sleep , daily macros (protein/fat/carb), daily fish oil.

I used a calorie counting application to make sure that without fail, every
single day I got 300g protein, 400g carbs, around 150g fat (300x4 + 400x4 +
150x9 = 4100~ calories). I gained about 90lb, gained a ton of strength, then
did a 2000 calorie cut still while powerlifting and then sprinting twice a day
every day to cut weight fast.

Absolutely changed my life. I unlocked the greatest super power of all:
controlling how I feel day in and day out. No more irritation, no more snappy
emotions, no more all nighters and wasting 2 days recouping. I am able to put
on weight whenever I want, and cut it whenever I want.

It's really incredible the shift you notice when you nail your diet and
exercise down to a solid routine. You are much more stable throughout your
daily tasks.

In the end, paying extreme attention to the trifecta and literally never once
straying from it for a year (sleep/nutrition/exercise), it locked me into a
proper mindset that I am able to sustain and not wane off of. Meaning I
wouldn't have a new goal every single day, I wouldn't waste one day feeling
extremely down in the dumps like I used to (used to be suicidal/suffer from
extreme depression). No episodes, just focus.

Start getting strong, it will absolutely change your life and empower you.

~~~
epa
Before anyone runs to the gym to buy a membership to copy the above, what
rfnslyr did takes intense dedication and focus and he likely has very good
genetics. Compound exercises that SS teaches are the best method for gaining
overall body strength and mass. Just remember that working out is 75%
nutrition and 25% lifting. If you don't eat right you wont make gains.

~~~
rfnslyr
> If you don't eat right you wont make gains.

The golden rule (unless you're in highschool and rancid with hormones).

It really does take dedication. I had every day, every meal planned, at what
time, at what time i wake and sleep, etc.

Allocate X amount of meals you are comfortable with eating per day (I like to
eat four). Buy 7 x 4 containers. I like to eat two snacks a day too at work. 2
small containers x 7. So I got containers, 28 large, 14 small (for yogurt +
fruit).

Protein - lean meat (beef, chicken, turkey, salmon, various fishes)

Fat - honestly just straight olive oil poured into my meal, makes it all nice
and wet and makes it go down easy.

Carbs - anything carby, though I abided strictly by sweet potato for carbs. I
want more carbs? Weigh out more sweet potato mashed, so easy for carbs. That
and bananas are my two go to source.

4 meals a day, 4000 calories. 1000 calories/meal. 1 meal consists of 3 macros.
Fat has 9cal/g, carb has 4cal/g, protein has 4cal/g. 75g pro, 100g carb, 30g
fat. That's per container. Now I have 4 of those for every day + 2 snacks of
whatever I want (this was my "cheat" meal, so fruits or some sort of yogurt,
or some celery to be dipped in nutella, etc, something to keep me sane).

That's all there is to it. Then gym 3x a day, and monitoring my sleep with
Sleepcycle every night and sleepyti.me.

Exercise hacking! I might do another full year of strict dieting and lifting
while documenting it all.

~~~
bonyen
That is some incredible dedication!

> Then gym 3x a day,

Did you mean 3x a week? Also, did you do much experimentation with your macro
levels? And how would you adjust things given feedback from your sleep
tracking?

Thanks again for this anecdote, it's really inspiring.

~~~
rfnslyr
I meant gym 3x a week. I did do experimentation. For a few months.

I started at 2000 calories for two weeks. Noticed weight loss, kept adjusting
300 per two weeks to see fluctuations. 2300 still losing, 2700 still losing,
3000 I gained a bit, 4000 I gain a lot of fat. When working out intensely,
biking, and sprinting, I only gain a bit on 4000.

During this time I ate zero sodium outright, only whatever the food contained.
No condiments, just fresh cooked without spices or anything to get true
calories and weight down.

------
stiff
What is missing in the discussion of this and the previous article is some
reflection on physiology and why could prolonged sitting possibly be bad for
you in the first place. One must know that that there are many processes in
the human body that can only be executed efficiently when we move, like for
example transfer of lymph or movement of digested food through the intestines
(involuntary smooth muscle contractions are also involved in both processes
but skeletal muscle contractions make it much more effective). Problems with
the gastrointestinal tract, like not visiting the toilet often enough, have
been linked to a great amount of diseases, so this is something to be
concerned about.

Hence doing sports after 8 hours of sitting will not necessarily
counterbalance all the negative effects involved. I am not so sure working
standing would be better, either. I think a good practical recommendation that
is great in many aspects is to take a short break every 2 hours or so and get
just 5 minutes of exercise done, just enough to get the heart beating a bit
faster and the blood circulating, it can be just basic stretching or isometric
contractions, whatever you are able to easily execute in your office
environment. It makes the work day much more productive, too.

~~~
jakebellacera
> I am not so sure working standing would be better, either.

I'm curious if standing desks make taking breaks much more accessible. Like
many others, I use a program that basically notifies me every 30 minutes to
take a 2 minute break. Even then, I find myself "skipping" them often as I'm
typically in the middle of intense focus and I honestly feel like it's too
much effort to get up and walk around at times.

------
mc_
I'll recommend Dan John's book "Intervention" because I think his approach to
fitness for individuals covers a good chunk of the HN crowd.

Personally, I have always been active and fit, but the reality of getting
older and being part of a startup have made me fine-tune my regiment. I'd
never been a gym rat, but having the time in school to spend 1.5-2 hours
preparing for my sports seems ever the luxury today. Since the New Year (and
the purchase of a road bike), I've been following a pretty consistent routine
of biking to work (ranges between 4 and 6 km depending on the route I take),
lifting at the gym for 30-45 minutes, and attending yoga classes at least
twice weekly (one weekday evening class and one weekend morning class
typically). I also play in a men's basketball league one night a week for most
of the year. This provides the core of my activity; I can usually be found
hiking, surfing, playing pickup soccer or basketball, and pretty much anything
else active at various points too (which the core work supports and enhances).

My gym sessions consist of 20 minutes of mobility exercises, moving all the
joints in all the ranges of motion they should enjoy, followed by a focused
"workout", usually 10-15 minutes long. They are almost exclusively full body
movements, sometimes done with low reps and heavy weight (such as double
kettlebell clean and jerks, 4 sets of 5), sometimes complexes (such as 4 sets
of (3-5 pull ups then 10-15 pushups)), and sometimes Crossfit-style workouts
(5 burpees, 10 kettlebell snatch (5 per arm), 15 mountain climbers, and 20
kettlebell swings (10 per arm); repeat until you can't).

For my training, I have three simple steps (stolen from Dan John): 1\. Do
Something 2\. Adjust 3\. Perfect

Anyway, that's my me-too to add to the OP.

------
oyvindeh
Recently, there was an article in New Scientist about this[1]. Basically, if
you sit for more than 6 hours a day, one hour of exercise a day doesn't undo
the damage.

The solution is to get up and move around often, i.e. every ~20 minutes or so.

Exercise is still good even if you stand/move around often. And standing all
day also has its problems, like others have mentioned.

[1] [http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21829233.200-dont-
take...](http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21829233.200-dont-take-life-
sitting-down.html)

(edit: wording)

~~~
tjogin
The problem with sitting for long periods of time, or remaining in any static
position really, is that as muscles fatigue more stress is put on joints and
bones. Having more muscle and strength helps significantly, but not all forms
of exercise develops muscle and strength adaptations equally.

It would depend on the exercise. If you by "exercise" mean superflous human
movement for the purpose of wasting excess energy, I would agree it doesn't do
much to counter sitting the rest of the day, it's basically just a break from
sitting.

If you instead mean methodical heavy barbell training for the purpose of
invoking physiological adaptations in the form of increased muscle and
strength, it would probably do a great deal to offset sitting for the rest of
the day, especially coupled with the increased awareness and understanding of
spinal positioning that comes with lifting weights.

Most of the time when people talk of "exercise", they mean the kind that don't
do much for muscle and strength development (mainly the aerobic kind or light
anaerobic work), but a lot of people actually do the kind that does.

~~~
eru
I love my barbell, but I'd still like to get my standing desk back.

Use both, if you can.

------
omn1
I'm not sure about that. This guy has gone through some extremes. First he was
standing 8 hours a day, no workout. Then he was sitting 12 hours a day, no
workout. Then he got into bodybuilding using lots of machines which made him
gain lots of muscles and finally he scales back to something I would call
"normal": a healthy workout of 30min per day but... with some no-training gaps
in between which can be several months long? I'm glad that he found his own
routine but why did it take him so many years of going through extremes and
now he's advertising his method like the only truth but still not sticking to
the basics like eating healthy?

~~~
deanproxy
I wouldn't call what I did or even what I do as "extreme". Far from it. Taking
steroids and growth hormone is extreme. Lifting weights and enjoying it to the
point where you want to better yourself at it? I don't see it as extreme.

I also do not go several months without working out often. I did it during a
shoulder surgery recovery and again earlier this year. I agree that is not a
good idea, but life does get in the way sometimes and I was just pointing out
that I'm no different than other people in that aspect.

I also wouldn't advocate that my way is the one true way. I will say that my
results are probably pretty typical of what most people may experience when
they actually decide to exercise.

~~~
jacquesm
> Lifting weights and enjoying it to the point where you want to better
> yourself at it? I don't see it as extreme.

I do. It is moving for the sake of moving rather than to achieve some
productive effect. To me exercise is riding my to a place where I need to go
rather than going by car if the distance is about right and the weather on the
way out not too brutal. Walking, playing with the kids and so on. Lifting
weights would indicate that I have calories to burn that go towards nothing
else that helps. Usually at the end of the day I'm tired enough that I long
for a bed rather than for more movement, especially not movement involving
weights bought for the specific purpose of making that movement harder.

If I really did have energy to burn after a full day I'd probably take up some
sport or spend that time and energy improving the place that I live in.

~~~
astral303
Lifting weights doesn't burn that many calories, compared to walking, running,
etc. You can also have substantial strength gains by doing it just 2-3 times a
week.

"Resistance training" gives you muscle mass so you can live longer. It gives
you strength so you can do more in your daily life--lift a heavy object and
without injuring yourself, for example. Having good leg strength can help
prevent knee injury when you're out hiking with your kids.

Are you chopping and stacking wood at home? Lifting anything heavy (as trite
as that sounds) at work? Or anything physically challenging that requires
strength throughout the week? Chances are, like many of us geeks, the answer
is no or very little. Lifting weights is a way to fix that. If you were
working a physically demanding job, you wouldn't need to lift weights.

And anyway, don't interpret lifting weights too literally! Don't buy weights,
use your body: pushups, pullups, etc. You can do pullups off the edge of a
desk. Dips off the edge of a chair. Lunges and squats and "jumpy" versions
thereof will give you plenty of leg and hip strength without any weights.

~~~
edraferi
> Lifting weights doesn't burn that many calories, compared to walking,
> running, etc.

Doesn't increasing your muscle mass increase your metabolism? That is, your
body's base calorie burn rate increases when you have more muscle to maintain.

------
taber1
One case = anecdote. There is actually some evidence that you can't counteract
the effects of sitting with exercise, unless you exercise more than you sit.
And what exactly does "I'm healthy" mean? Is that what the doctor says after
doing some test or is it just how you feel? What would be the status of your
health (as measured by tests from a doctor) if you had an active job and some
moderate exercise for the same period of 13 years?

source: [http://m.runnersworld.com/health/sitting-is-the-new-
smoking-...](http://m.runnersworld.com/health/sitting-is-the-new-smoking-even-
for-runners)

~~~
deanproxy
I had a physical by my doctor about 3 months ago, as stated in my writing. So,
yes... "I'm healthy" was declared by tests from a doctor.

~~~
taber1
Then it's seems that it's working out for you and maybe that would be a
"middle road" for us, desk-bound people. However we still cannot fully
counteract the negative effects of sitting, to quote the article which I
linked in my previous post:

"Adding to the mounting evidence, Hamilton recently discovered that a key gene
(called lipid phosphate phosphatase-1 or LPP1) that helps prevent blood
clotting and inflammation to keep your cardiovascular system healthy is
significantly suppressed when you sit for a few hours. "The shocker was that
LPP1 was not impacted by exercise if the muscles were inactive most of the
day," Hamilton says. "Pretty scary to say that LPP1 is sensitive to sitting
but resistant to exercise."

~~~
deanproxy
That's certainly possible. There is no way to tell other than to give it a
shot for yourself.

However, I will mention, I'm not blessed with great genetics by any means. I
would say I am an average/below average individual when it comes to "good
genetics". My entire family is riddled with health issues. My father died at
the early age of 56 due to heart disease, his brother at 60. His father at 52.
When I found I had cholesterol issues, this is what made me start my exercise
routine, so I didn't end up like them. So far, it has helped me tremendously.

------
benatkin
If you use a standing desk 20+ hours a week, you aren't sedentary. People who
are stuck being sedentary won't be able to move to using a standing desk
unless they stop being sedentary. There's a big gap between being sedentary
and getting proper exercise.

Sitting allows people to spend a lot of time moving very little, in addition
to time spent sleeping. Standing involves a fair amount of effort.

Just because using a standing desk often is a sure way for a person to not be
sedentary doesn't mean it's the best idea. In fact the most sedentary people
are probably going to have a hard time adapting to using a standing desk full-
time.

------
tootie
When I worked in a "war room" one of the guys got us on a pushup routine. 2-3
times a day everyone stops what they're doing and does pushups. Start with as
many as you can do (even if it's 5) and just do it a few times a day and
you'll build up strength really quick. The guy who started it was about 40 and
pretty heavy. We had two mid-30s moms in our room who got in on it and worked
up to 20 pushups (from their feet, not knees) in a few weeks. Sadly, the band
broke up after a while and moved to different areas, but it was pretty awesome
while it lasted.

------
aaron695
OK people it's pretty simple.

The scientific evidence is you can not undo the damage from sitting extended
periods by exercise or anything else known.

Current scientific evidence is you can only not sit.

Like all things there is some science that says hey maybe it's not true but
the trend is going towards not sitting.

------
nwh
Site seems flakey, here's a mirror —
[http://archive.is/IbSt2](http://archive.is/IbSt2)

~~~
deanproxy
Thanks for this. I'm not sure what has happened to my server all of the
sudden, it has handled loads bigger than what I was getting from posting this
article. However, it has literally taken a jump off of a cliff.

~~~
timje1
Controversial use of 'literally' :)

------
phaus
The author seems to miss the facts that spurred the trend for standing desks
in the first place. Whether you exercise or not, sitting down all day
dramatically increases your chances of dying from heart disease.

[http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sitting/AN02082](http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sitting/AN02082)

------
jarjoura
100% agree.

Also a perk of living in a city (such as San Francisco) is I can walk
EVERYWHERE, including work and I do. Like the OP, walking to and from work and
hitting the gym most days has vastly improved my quality of life and it
doesn't even take away from much of my evening.

If you need something to get you motivated, grab a Fitbit tracker and/or scale
and track yourself. It'll only work in the beginning, but if you use that to
your advantage to get out of your lazy slump, it should carry you forward.

~~~
stass
> Also a perk of living in a city (such as San Francisco)

How is it related to living in a city? At least in the Bay Area you can
walk/cycle pretty much everywhere if your work is close enough to your job.
And cycling in suburbs is usually safer/healthier than e.g. in San Francisco.

You're out of luck if your job is far from your home though. But one will have
the same problem in city as well in that case.

~~~
bmj
_How is it related to living in a city? At least in the Bay Area you can walk
/cycle pretty much everywhere if your work is close enough to your job. And
cycling in suburbs is usually safer/healthier than e.g. in San Francisco._

This depends on location. In my area, the suburbs (designed as they were in
the 1950s-1970s) tend to be very pedestrian and cyclist unfriendly places,
particularly in those areas with business parks. If you want to get around
without a car, then you really need to be in the city.

Your second point, however, is right on. I've always made it a point to find
jobs within 10 miles of my home, so the bike commute is reasonable (having
briefly done a 40 mile round trip commute, I can say that it took up too much
of my time).

------
abcd_f
It's better to be rich and healthy than sick and poor.

Obviously if you exercise it doesn't really matter if you sit or stand at
work. The question is how to handle the case when you can't/won't exercise and
still need to work.

~~~
heepler
[https://www.google.com/search?q=sitting+harmful+even+if+you+...](https://www.google.com/search?q=sitting+harmful+even+if+you+exercise)

Sitting for long periods tightens the hamstrings and cuts off circulation to
your legs. Even if you exercise. Standing for long periods may give you
varicose veins. Not sure there's a real solution here, other than to
periodically disrupt any form of immobility.

~~~
icelancer
The best posture is a varied one.

~~~
droopyEyelids
This may be my own pessimistic take, but something about the simplicity and
obvious-correctness of that advice makes me think it'll never be as blogworthy
as a less realistic goal that you'd have to buy something new to try.

Or, it's like the idea doesn't have the magic of an idea that you can't do
right now but won't require any effort when the time is right- like "I could
get up every few minutes and stretch and walk around already! That can't be
it... I need to buy a standing desk and that'll make me stand all day so I'm
healthy."

~~~
julius
You could easily combine the boring idea with something new and shiny (that
makes the idea work in real life^^).

Like a device giving you electric shocks every 10 minutes to make you remember
to change your posture.

------
danboarder
My work focus and overall health have really improved since I started running.

I started running casually a few years ago but began to notice a real
difference when I began training for a half-marathon with a local team. The
training only required a couple half-hour runs during the week and a longer
run with the group on Saturday mornings. Having a goal to run a real race and
support of team runs motivated me to follow through and I lost about 40lbs
over the course of training. Since then I have run the full LA Marathon and in
a couple of months I will be running the Chicago Marathon, and I can honestly
say I'm in the best shape of my life. I never was a runner before but I can
say I am one now.

It's not the running itself though, I think it's having a training goal and a
team that supports you that can make it work. (btw my training group is Team
World Vision, which has groups around the USA that run for causes). I would
suggest the same result can come from biking, Crossfit, or other workout
program where you have a clear goal and a group that supports your effort.

------
mironathetin
I agree that software development as a job works only, if you exercise
regularly. During the last 15 years, I swim regularly, twice a week, usually
2km freestyle. And I run once a week, 12 km. I do this with my wife and we do
it before work. We always insisted to get the time in the morning. In summer,
when the outdoor pools are open, we swim outside, although the pools open only
at 9 am. We aren't at our desk before 10:30 in that case (once or twice a
week). I won't accept a work that doesn't give me this freedom.

In the evening, the kids are at home and we cannot leave. And all the lazy
office guys drift in the pool and this is annoying, if you want to swim.

I am 48 now and have zero health issues. No back problems, no blood pressure
problems, not an ounce overweight. Same with my wife.

I can only whole-heartedly encourage everyone to do the same. It sets a
standard for software developers and life is so much more enjoyable.

------
noelwelsh
Gotta agree with this article. A standing desk has such a minor effect
compared to actually doing vigorous exercise.

------
tofof
What happens when you sit at a desk and your server melts in 57 minutes?

------
roin
I'm glad that the author is having a good experience with his sit all day and
frequently exercise plan. But his conclusion that standing desks provide very
little benefit to your overall health is based on his sample size of one,
never actually using a standing desk, and then extrapolating that "result" to
the rest of the human race.

The only useful conclusion in this post has nothing to do with standing desks.
It is simply that exercise will help you feel good and improve your health.

------
austinz
"Sitting at desk considered harmful considered harmful"? To be fair, I haven't
seen any standing desk articles claiming that standing is some sort of magical
panacea that can fully substitute for conventional exercise and a healthy
diet, although I'm sure there's at least one out there.

~~~
auctiontheory
"Sitting is bad for you" is one of the hottest topics in popular health right
now.

Standing isn't so much a panacea as an alternative to the aforementioned
sitting.

Our forefathers didn't formally "exercise" in a gym - they moved around. As a
practical matter, standing allows desk workers more movement than sitting
does.

------
leothekim
Moving to a standing desk is not "futile". For myself, a standing desk
prevents me from reinjuring my lower back and potentially missing out on a
couple days of work due to back spasms. Others use it to help them with
repetitive stress injury.

And how did I injure my back? Exercising with too much weights at the gym!

~~~
neverminder
Usually it's not too much weight, but the wrong posture/trajectory of the
exercise that causes injuries.

------
moo
I think a previous HN article of a 10 minute routine of body weight exercises
is a better program for many than a weight lifting routine for cardio and
maintaining body weight. I think body weight exercises are often overlooked.
Pullups, situps, pushups, pistol squats. Also add a jump rope for little
weight, portability, and requires little space. I don't see too many fat
runners, gymnasts, or cyclists. Power lifters, Olympic weight lifters often
have a lot of fat with muscle. I like a pyramid type routine of starting with
1 pullup, 2 pushups, 3 situps, and repeat doing multiples ( ie then 2 pullups,
4 pushups, 6 situps, ...). For jumping rope remember to alternate the weight
bearing foot like a boxer, jumping with both feet together takes more energy
and I find lactic acid builds up faster.

------
scotty79
What happens if I already have a scoliosis and I spend 15 years or so siting
at desk for 12 or more hours a day and I don't exercise?

Absolutely nothing. Provided that I eat appropriately to my activity and my
chairs are always somewhat uncomfortable.

But if I spend a year working from chair as deeply reclined and comfortable
(and position fixing) as this one:
[http://www.healthyback.com/products/Humantouch/Pc095-perfect...](http://www.healthyback.com/products/Humantouch/Pc095-perfect-
chair-electric-recliner/174) I get back pains because small muscles around my
spine get weak and can be overstretched and damaged when I lift a fridge or
something or just twist rapidly in some unusual direction.

------
dtf
My winter workout: pomodoro technique + no heating + pull-up bar. Work 25
minutes. Now you're so cold your fingers are about to drop off. Do push-ups
until warm again. Work another 25 minutes. Now do pull-ups. Repeat..

~~~
stinos
Not sure if you're serious, but having spent the last winter without central
heating due to rather unfortunate renovation works timing, I'm really not sure
this is a good thing. There were several consecutive weeks where the
temperature inside would never rise above 10degrees celcius as we only head a
small petrol burner. At night the condensation froze on the walls (outside
temperatures of -10 degrees celcius). Sure enough movement keeps you warm, but
basically you're always cold unless you're moving. I don't think I ever felt
worse physically. Did gain quite some respect for homeless people in cold
places though.

~~~
dtf
Semi-serious :-) I've worked in a number of cold, sometimes freezing locations
in the depths of winter, although not quite as bad as your situation by the
sounds of it. Push-ups and exercise does keep you warm and sharp though,
should you need it. Sadly there's no quick fix for the opposite situation,
when your mind turns to glue in the summer heat.

~~~
stinos
totally agree on the summer heat - you can always get warm with enough effort,
getting cold without external help is simply impossible (I think?)

------
ulisesrmzroche
I like to train in mixed martial arts. Judo/Boxing/BJJ/etc. It's a good way to
get in shape that also offers a steep intellectual and physical challenge. At
least, they're both similar in that people usually compliment each other on
how much technique they have.

I've noticed a correlation with programmers that train. The crazier the
languages they like the better grapplers they are, yet DevOps types lean
toward striking. Don't think it makes any sense though.

------
zwieback
Enjoyed reading this - I didn't expect that anyone could be serious about the
art and craft of window tinting!

However, deanproxy seems like the kind of guy who can tackle anything and
throw in a few ounces of obsession to make it work. For the regular Joe
standing desks might just be the one tiny thing they can do. They've become
super popular at cubicleland here at HP and our facilities people will come
and set them up for free.

------
marti
Between the two 'extremes' of standing and sitting, there's also the saddle
chair [1]. I've used one at home for over a year now, but only up to a few
hours a day, so can't really tell how much it has affected my posture in
addition to regular exercise.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddle_chair](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddle_chair)

~~~
agumonkey
I wanted to try something like this but didn't have one so I used a stool (4
legged IKEA with thin cushion). Not good, exhaustion feeling comes quickly,
bad blood flow I suppose. I never bother searching for a real saddle chair but
your post makes me wanna buy one.

------
uberstuber
If you sit all day the couch stretch [1] helps a lot to undo the shortening in
your hip flexors. 2 min a day each side. Really painful if you sit a lot.

Kelly Starrett has a lot of great information about mobility.

[1]
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-ZX...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-ZX1QMTdAC4#t=126)

------
Fizzadar
Couldn't agree more with the standing desks - no doubt they bring some
improvement, but they do seem more like the 'in-thing' and 'hip' rather than
genuinely life changing. As it always has been, regular (even if short)
exercise sessions are a key part in healthy living.

~~~
jfb
The thing I like about standing desks is that they encourage better behavior
than a sitting desk -- they're not by themselves anything like a panacea, but
it's a lot harder to be completely sessile when you're standing up. The style
of working at a standing desk, I find, is conducive to taking short breaks,
walking around, even moving to a chair to sit and read or think.

------
codersteve
For those of you that are interested, you might want to look up "Convict
Conditioning".

[http://www.amazon.com/Convict-Conditioning-Weakness-Using-
Su...](http://www.amazon.com/Convict-Conditioning-Weakness-Using-Survival-
Strength/dp/0938045768)

------
plg
Swimming is awesome. The overhead can be significant (finding a pool with lap
swim hours amenable to your schedule) but the equipment cost is minimal ($20
speedo) and it's amazing exercise. I also find the time in the water to be a
soothing break from the outside world.

------
biggfoot
The only reason people don't exercise is because they don't. I don't know of a
genuine reason to not be able to spare 20 minutes a day. If you can do nothing
else, run for 10 minutes and do 50 push ups, that's all it takes.

------
parasight
Too much of anything is usually bad for health. You can even exercise too
much. So I don't think standing all day is the best solution. With adjustable
desks it is pretty easy to alternate your working position during the day.

------
TureMasing
COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS DISCUSSION BELOW. Spare yourself 76 more or less
useless comments and STOP HERE.

You sit. That's it. There is almost nothing you can do about it. It's called
work. Anyway, it's NOT dangerous.

Get a coffee, go to the men's room, get lunch, stand for a while, go to the
silent reading room... That's automatic and stops you from being seated more
than an hour at a stretch.

Add 30 minutes of walking every day (7 minutes to the office, 7 minutes home,
7 minutes to get lunch, 7 minutes to get back and then maybe to and from a
meeting) and you should be OK as long as you don't stuff yourself with
cheeseburgers and fries everyday.

If you on top of that add 4 hours of weight lifting (actually 1 hour lifting
and 3 hours resting) you can get extremely fit; Gladiator contender or Fear
factor kind of fit. Like I am.

Also, don't forget intermittent fasting everyday 16:8-style.

~~~
taber1
With that kind of logic, most discussions would be meaningless. Basically we
are all dying from a disease called "life". The point is how you want to die:
either miserably from chronic illnesses brought by long years of bad habits or
gracefully from old age. However, there are no guarantees, but if you don't
buy a ticket, you have zero chances of winning. Anyway, eating "healthy" does
not beat exercise.

------
holri
3 x 1h exercises a week during 50 years is approx. a year lifetime. It is
likely that if you do this you add more than one healthy year to your
lifetime. Therefore exercises are saving life time.

------
therealunreal
... Your site goes down?

------
scotty79
Standing, sitting. It's all so tiring. Why we don't have chairs in which you
could float submerged in pen of small balls that have similar density as your
body?

------
aimatt
What happens if you stand at a standing desk _and_ exercise? It's going well
for me. $10 in lumber to convert my normal sitting desk.

------
matho
I would guess the author already knows this, but kayaking is strongly
associated with shoulder injuries/dislocations. Be careful, dude!

------
ds_
Why not do both?

~~~
deanproxy
If using a standing desk sounds like a good idea to you and you have the means
to afford one or build one, it couldn't hurt to do both. My argument was that
I did not feel like it was necessary considering my progress with sitting and
doing regular exercise.

------
gonzo
This is why I installed a gym at work.

~~~
rusabd
our HR is concerned that squat rack can hurt someone

------
mehulkar
increase the dynos!

------
ShinyObject
I agree with the points he makes and have had a similar experience. I have
worked desk jobs with minimal movement for the last 10 years and getting into
resistance training plus cardio has made a huge difference in the amount of
energy I have, mood, posture, etc.

One statement I take issue with is this line "I put on 40 pounds of muscle one
year alone...". This is essentially impossible barring a malfunctioning
thyroid. I don't doubt that he put on 40 pounds of weight in a year but I can
guarantee it wasn't all muscle. If you are 17-20 and finishing up puberty,
using anabolic steroids, working out incredibly hard 5-6 days per week, and
eating 4000+ calories per day every day _maybe_ you could put on 30 pounds of
muscle in a year. If you are in your late 20s early 30s as he was, not using
steroids (I assume), and working out hard your max muscle gain in a year might
be around 20lbs. For a normal 30 year old working out 3x a week it's closer to
12-15lbs/year after newbie-gains have ended. I say this not to discourage but
rather to give people realistic expectations, I believe the most common reason
people fail at exercise is they are overly ambitious and burn out quickly when
they don't look like Hulk overnight.

If someone was looking for a good starting point for fitness I recommend
scooby1961 on youtube, he has been around a long time and has a ton of videos
on fitness and nutrition aimed at newbies, and takes the perspective of an
engineer looking at the body as a machine.

As someone who has been into this for a while my advice would be:

1\. Start small and ramp up, if you do nothing currently start with walking 20
minutes per day.

2\. Do not spend a bunch of money on fancy equipment, like all hobbies until
you get deeper into the game you won't even know what you should get.

3\. Avoid injury, esp your lower back and shoulders. The best way to do this
is perfect form. Always have perfect form, cheating with bad form to get one
extra rep is only cheating yourself, the goal is to work the muscle to
failure, not hit some number.

4\. If you want to do a home gym you can work 95% of your muscle groups with
dumbbells, a barbell, and a pullup bar. The only thing you cannot work out
well with these is your quads. For that you need a leg press machine or a
squat cage (ie: a gym).

5\. Most suppliments are unproven snake oil that waste your money at best, and
at worst destroy your kidneys/liver or give you heavy metal poisoning. The
only supplements I consider proven effective with minimal side-effects are
caffeine (pre-workout) and creatine. I will not recommend any brands but look
for ones that are quality tested by independent labs (like USP).

6\. Cardio with resistance (weights) is best, but if you only have time for
one make it cardio. This is more important for your long term health.

7\. Sticking to a routine is not about will-power, it's about habits. The
first time you work out with weights it's intimidating as hell and you feel
like a bumbling idiot, you do that 2 or 3 times a week for a few weeks and it
feels like a chore, you do it for a year and it happens on auto pilot, you
don't even think about it.

------
zacharycohn
n of 1 != proof.

~~~
deanproxy
It's proof that it worked for me. Somebody of average genetics and physique
that had a lot of the same problems that others complain about and in turn try
standing desks. Sometimes it's best to just give it a shot and see how it
works for you instead of trying to find reasons not to try it. :)

------
Dewie
> To me, this has always seemed a bit futile as well as overkill. You're still
> sedentary. You're providing very little benefit to your overall well being
> and it's simply yet another way that people are trying to get something for
> nothing when it comes to health . I've read a lot of the examples of it's
> positive effects. I've read a lot of the raving reviews of people that do
> this, but I ultimately come to the same conclusion every time I read this
> stuff... exercise a little bit every day. It's healthier than standing all
> day, it's free, doesn't require expensive furniture, doesn't require you to
> beg your boss for something expensive and it's something you should be doing
> anyway.

I'm tired of this type of condescension. I guess because the author writes to
a community of programmers, or nerds, or whatever, he feels that he can
address them as if they are all sloths. I have not had the impression in the
overall debate about this standing/sitting business that people are saying
that they are going over to a standing desk in order to _not_ exercise. One
can perfectly well imagine that the people that are going over to a standing
desk because they think that it brings benefits that are a good complement to
an overall healthy lifestyle, like eating and exercising properly (I notice
that you say that you don't eat healthily, deanproxy... does this mean that
you willingly do this because you think that an exercise routine can fully
compensate for a bad diet...?). If someone vows to try to have better posture
in their everyday life, does that mean that they think that it is a
replacement for something like a good exercise routing for the back muscles?
No. So this is standing/sitting contra exercising is a false dichotomy.

In fact, this whole standing/sitting discussion was partly propelled by
studies that showed that sitting a lot was bad for ones health, _also for
active people_ [0] :

> __Even when adults meet physical activity guidelines, sitting for prolonged
> periods can compromise metabolic health. __

To turn deanproxy 's baseless condescenscion towards "standers" and their
supposed lazyness on its head: deanproxy is simply trying to rationalize his
sedentary habits by asserting that having discrete blocks of activity time
during the day counteracts his sedentary existence for the rest of the day.

To get the whole picture and in order to be in a position to assert that
standing is inconsequential, deanproxy should also have experience with a
lifestyle in which he exercises and stands/walks/is somewhat active in his day
job. But it does not seem that he does. Perhaps not too surprising when his
whole argument rests on standing CONTRA exercising in your free time. And what
all of this shows is that the zealots (imaginary or not) who vow to NOT
exercise BECAUSE they stand during their day jobs are leading an inferior
lifestyle because deanproxy exercises and is able to do WITHOUT standing (and
eating healthily... ). So deanproxy can claim victory here, the victory of
being an exercise-zealot over the standing-zealots.

[0]
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404815/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404815/)

