

H1B workers are not indentured servants - udit99
https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/9daa6ee0eb81

======
Amadou
_Employers can’t hire H1 workers for peanuts. There are regulations in place
to ensure that employers pay their H1 workers a minimum prevailing wage._

That statement is true, but meaningless. Never in the history of the H1B visa
program has there been any budget allocated to enforcing those regulations. I
am not omniscient, but I am only aware of two cases of prevailing-wage
enforcement actions over the last 15+ years and they both involved someone
making a huge stink because they found out that the job they were denied went
to an H1B for a much lower salary.

 _The common misconception of being under an obligation to work for X number
of years for an employer comes from the fact that H1 workers from a handful of
countries (India, China, Mexico etc.)_

It may be a handful of countries, but what matters is how many visa holders
come from those countries. About half of all H1B holders come from India
alone.

[http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-01-16/news...](http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-01-16/news-
by-industry/28428170_1_h-1b-visa-h-1b-programme-h-1b-hiring)

~~~
udit99
As part of the H1 filing process, employers are required to post an LCA (Labor
Condition Application) at the workplace. This is an official-looking document
typically stuck on a pinboard around the workarea. Amongst other things, this
explicitly lists the prevailing wage/salary at which the H1 is hired. So, in
effect there is nothing hidden from other employees or the employee being
hired. I have second hand knowledge that LCA placement is in fact audited. In
any case, LCA placement has been enforced by the legal department in my last
couple of workplaces.

>About half of all H1B holders come from India alone.

Yes, that is true and I'm not denying that. My point is to clarify
misconceptions about the H1 Visa program itself being legal slave labor and
focusing on highlighting the subtleties that give it this perception.

~~~
Amadou
_So, in effect there is nothing hidden from other employees or the employee
being hired._

That's not particularly helpful - the only people who see it have an economic
incentive to not rock the boat.

The thing to remember about H1B visas is that there are tons of exceptions to
the "slave labor" situation. No one sensible believes that every single H1B
visa holder is a pawn to keep US wages below fair-market pricing. The problem
is that a large number, probably a majority, of them are. Anecdotal
contradictions don't disprove the thesis.

~~~
udit99
> the only people who see it have an economic incentive to not rock the boat

You're assuming that the employee themselves don't have a reason to rock the
boat if their filing paperwork lists a salary higher than their effective
salary? As an H1 whose paperwork lists a salary higher than my effective
salary, there's nothing that stops me from realizing that I'm underpaid and
switching employers when convenient.

~~~
Amadou
_As an H1 whose paperwork lists a salary higher than my effective salary,
there 's nothing that stops me from realizing that I'm underpaid and switching
employers when convenient._

Do I really need to point out that in the context of enforcement actions, that
means nothing?

~~~
udit99
I guess we're addressing two different issues. You're focusing on enforcement
to address the abuse of the H1 program, whereas I'm taking the H1 worker
perspective and trying to dispel the notion of indentured servitude.

------
fecak
Recruiter here, and I can't even count how many candidates I've had contact me
looking for a new job (I recruit engineers) at the very moment they received
their green card. There are many consulting companies that do mostly 'body
shop' work that are more than willing to hire H-1 holders and draw out the
green card process in order to keep the employee and the very large margins
they can charge.

Some of these companies actually have the H-1 employee look for their own
assignments in addition to doing the work. So they are essentially independent
consultants, taking maybe 50% of their bill rate home over several years. The
good news is that when they do jump to a new employer with a green card in
hand, they often get massive raises. The bad news is they never make up for
those lower wages paid to them over several years.

Most of those I refer to are from India and China as the author states, which
in tech does account for a significant amount of people.

I would certainly classify the companies that clearly prey on these H-1 hires
as being mostly responsible for the prevailing 'indentured servant' tag. It's
shameful.

------
wavefunction
Why is it that you guys are underpaid then, in comparison to domestic labor.
Certainly you might argue that domestic labor is "overpaid," but then one must
consider our (domestic and foreign origin) contributions to the bottom line
and our resulting reward.

In my opinion if you can do as well or better than I, why are you not better
recompensed? We are your brothers and sisters all over the world, and we all
deserve an equitable share relative to our contributions to the bottom line.

~~~
abc_lisper
I am an Indian. I'll let you in on a (open?) secret because I have nothing to
lose and I am no part of it. All the stuff I am going to tell you is from my
personal experience with my friends, and their stories.

Here's how these body shops work:

1\. Find a guy/gal who is a reasonable match for the job and place him/her in
it. No problem with that.

2\. The employee may not have prior experience in the field he claims he has
in his resume. The body shops know this. They sometimes fix your resume for
you.

3\. If the body shops are not confident in you, they might arrange for a proxy
to interview in your place for a "charge". Most of the times in consulting, a
phone interview usually suffices.

4\. Some (good)body shops split the wage 80(for the employee)/20(for the
employer). In case they did proxy someone in for you, they might divide it
more evenly in their favor.

5\. The body shops may have someone in the said company where he is placing
their candidate and they may receive kickbacks(few dollars/head/hour).

6\. Usually the body shops are _scum_ of the earth; if you think car dealers
are the worst, think again. They will lie,beg,steal to make more money off of
you in anyways they can.

7\. And finally to come to your point, why H-1s are underpaid; In my
experience they are not underpaid at all. They usually make twice of what I
make(and I am a programmer in SV). It is just that they lie that it seems low.
Many a time the body shop pays the employee about 50% in income as per-diem.
All in all, it is not uncommon that they make 200k a year. However, remember
that body shops are the worst of the worst people and they may steal your
money and not pay for months on end sometimes. Depends on how desperate you
are.

~~~
diogenescynic
Cognizant, Infosys, GlobalLogic, Symphony, TCS...

------
null_ptr
Only PhD's and equivalents can get green cards in 1-2 years, it takes much
longer for everyone else regardless of country of origin. As far as H1's
having job options to pick from, the difference between Large Corp 1 and Large
Corp 2 is small enough not to matter. Are small tech firms interested in
foreign workers as much as their bigger brothers are?

~~~
udit99
>Only PhD's and equivalents can get green cards in 1-2 years

Not true. The EB-2 category (Masters Degree/5+ years of experience) has no
waiting period as long as you're not from a handful of countries. The category
is "current", which is to say that the time taken to get a GC in this category
is going to be pretty much the time taken to file/process paperwork + a 180
day mandated period. This is what totals up to 1-1.5 years.

> Are small tech firms interested in foreign workers as much as their bigger
> brothers are

I can't speak for all companies, but in the Bay area, I've had offers from
more than one 20-100 person startups with the assurance of H1/GC filings.

~~~
dragonwriter
> The EB-2 category (Masters Degree/5+ years of experience) has no waiting
> period as long as you're not from a handful of countries

Which handful, because of the way the system works, are (pretty much by
definition) the ones where most qualified and sponsored applicants come from,
since the waiting lists are simply the result of the degree to which fully
qualified (including sponsored) applicants in the category from the country
exceed the by-country limits for the category.

~~~
udit99
China, India, Mexico, Philippines.[1]

The system doesn't explicitly discriminate against "talented" countries, it
just stacks the odds against highly populated countries since there is a per-
country cap on the number of GCs issued.

[1][http://travel.state.gov/visa/bulletin/bulletin_6062.html](http://travel.state.gov/visa/bulletin/bulletin_6062.html)

~~~
dragonwriter
> The system doesn't explicitly discriminate against "talented" countries, it
> just stacks the odds against highly populated countries since there is a
> per-country cap on the number of GCs issued.

It stacks the odds against countries with a large number of qualified
applicants in any category (since the caps are per category.) Population plays
a role, but only because it influences representation in the category (which
is a big factor for India and China), but so does interest level (which is a
big factor for Mexico and the Phillipines, which are particularly impacted for
family-based immigration as well as employment-based immigration categories.)

~~~
udit99
Agreed

------
Matt_Mickiewicz
"They have a smaller job pool to choose from, but in the tech industry
(context of most HN discussions about H1s), there really isn’t a shortage of
employers willing to file."

To quantify, on DeveloperAuction we've found that Engineers on H1B's get an
average of 32% fewer job opportunities than citizens/green card holders.

------
potatolicious
> _" H1 workers who’re not citizens of these handful of sucks-to-be-born-here
> countries can get Green Cards within 1-2 years and enjoy unfettered job
> mobility."_

Yes, and this still results in 1-2 years of indentured servitude. As the
author defines at the very beginning of the blog post:

> _" inden′tured serv′ant: A person who is bound to work for another for a
> specified period of time."_

There is a substantial period of time - longer for some, shorter for others,
where your employer has your entire life in a stranglehold and can throw you
under the bus at a moment's notice. I'm not sure how that doesn't qualify as
indentured servitude?

~~~
udit99
Because as I clarify in the post, no H-1 is BOUND to work for their employer.
They are free to quit and go back home, or change employers. Yes, the employer
has an advantage of being in a position where he can kill your American Dream,
but H-1 workers change jobs ALL the time.

~~~
potatolicious
And most indentured servitude arrangements around the world aren't _bound_ to
their employers either - but there are other highly coercive forces at play
that prevent people from leaving.

Imagine holding someone's family hostage in exchange for them doing something
- while they are _technically_ free to do whatever the hell they want, the
reality of it is that they are, for all practical intents and purposes, bound
to your will.

This is, at the end of the day, somewhat of a gray area. How much influence do
you need over someone's life before you become a coercive force? IMO the
ability to completely unravel your life - to force you to suddenly move
(within days!), to eject you from your resident country, etc, clearly falls
under this umbrella.

H-1Bs change jobs all the time. I've done it myself. But once the green card
is in the works, the indentured servitude begins. So perhaps more accurately,
H-1Bs aren't indentured servants, but a _very large_ subset of them (i.e.,
anyone after a GC) are.

------
nell
The author is pretty accurate. The disadvantageous position for H1 holders is
that they depend on the employer to stay in the US.

I also know of low wage consultants being hired by companies and they never
fill in the top spots or even the mid level ones. The best jobs are always
competitive regardless of how many cheap consultants are in the market. And
every low-wage consultant wants to make more money given the chance and
ability. If anyone is complaining that a low end job is being taken by a low
wage consultant, I'd say aim higher.

------
jbarham
As a Canadian citizen who worked in California on a H1B I can state that the
article's claim that people like me (i.e., not Indian or Chinese) get their
green cards is categorically false.

For starters, the preliminary paperwork, even if your employer starts the
process immediately--and many don't--can take well over a year. In my case I
was waiting 15 months before I gave up and relocated to Australia.

~~~
udit99
Speaking from personal experience, an immediate GC filing is something that I
have negotiated as a sine qua non for changing jobs. I understand that H1s in
other professions may not have the leverage to negotiate this, but the current
demand for software developers makes this a no-brainer at the negotiating
table.

As for the time taken, my personal experience has been that PERM takes about 6
months. After that I-140 + I-485 can be concurrently filed if your Priority
date is current. They can take another 6 months to get approved. After that
there is a mandatory 180 day period before you can switch jobs. Total average
case time should be around 1.5 years. This assumes that your application is
not audited and your immigration lawyers are not backlogged. YMMV.

~~~
greencardholder
"After that there is a mandatory 180 day period before you can switch jobs."

This is false. There's a lot of misinformation on the internet about this.
Speak to an immigration attorney and you will discover there's no mandatory
period whatsoever.

See also: Rights and Responsibilities of a Green Card Holder (Permanent
Resident)

[http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b...](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=f3f43a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=f3f43a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD)

~~~
udit99
According to AC21[1] 106(c)

", the approval of a Form I-140 employment-based (EB) immigrant petition shall
remain valid when an alien changes jobs or employers, if: • A Form I-485,
Application to Adjust Status, on the basis of the EB immigrant petition has
been filed and remained un-adjudicated for 180 days or more; and • The new job
is in the same or similar occupational classification as the job for which the
petition was filed. "

[1]Policy and Procedural Memoranda on the American Competitiveness in the
Twenty-First Century Act of 2000 (AC21)

[http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/Laws/Memoranda/Static_Files_Memor...](http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/Laws/Memoranda/Static_Files_Memoranda/Archives%201998-2008/2008/ac21_30may08.pdf)

------
malandrew

        "4. H1 workers who’re not citizens of these handful of 
        sucks-to-be-born-here countries can get Green Cards within 
        1-2 years and enjoy unfettered job mobility."
    

Citation please.

~~~
arkem
[http://travel.state.gov/visa/bulletin/bulletin_6062.html](http://travel.state.gov/visa/bulletin/bulletin_6062.html)

If you fit in the second employment related priority categorie (EB-2) and
aren't from China or India your visa process has no backlog. EB-2 status is
granted to people with Masters degrees or Bachelors + 5 years experience.

------
ericgoldberg
It seems like this article is saying "H1B workers are not LITERALLY indentured
servants, but here's a ton of reasons they are at a huge disadvantage." So
basically the article is railing against the semantics of an exaggerated
expression people use to highlight a problem everyone acknowledges exists.

~~~
udit99
> railing against the semantics of an exaggerated expression

I'm arguing that those exaggerated expressions seem to be in use so much
lately that its misleading people into believing false information about the
H1 program and its evils. I would really hope that none of what I clarified
needed to be clarified and was common knowledge already. But despite HN being
a fairly knowledgable crowd, the extent of the discussion here suggests
otherwise.

