
Samsung Kills 'Linux on DeX' with Android 10 Rollout - dsego
https://www.tfir.io/samsung-decides-to-shut-down-linux-on-dex-with-android-10-rollout/
======
elipsey
A guy I was hanging out with a hackathon this weekend was using a chromebook
with crouton. An update broke his crouton intsallation and he had to find
another editor and another way to spin up services, containers, etc.

If you're running a linux container on a machine with a bootloader you don't
control, the manufacturer can pull your card at any time for no reason. I
refuse to live that way if I have a choice, even if it means crappy hardware.
:p

~~~
chx
Note you can get (very) old ThinkPads for a pittance which will be a much
better platform for running Linux. Many actually prefer the T420/X220 for its
keyboard and the performance is not as bad as one would think from the eight
years passed since its release. As
[https://www.hardocp.com/article/2017/01/13/kaby_lake_7700k_v...](https://www.hardocp.com/article/2017/01/13/kaby_lake_7700k_vs_sandy_bridge_2600k_ipc_review/4)
attests from Sandy Bridge (2011 ThinkPad) to Kaby Lake (2017 ThinkPad) IPC
only grew by 20%, the big changes were in efficiency allowing the move from
35W CPUs to 15W CPUs. Also, if you are just slightly handy, you could use the
T430/X230 with the old keyboard hacked onto them. If you are even more handy,
you could install a converter board and a full HD screen. If you are doing
this to a T430s with an i7 CPU without an nVidia GPU you even get Thunderbolt,
Thunderbolt 1 for sure but still, a converter allows you to attach TB3
devices. A T430s hacked so is basically the poor man's ThinkPad 25 which is
the pinnacle of laptops. (Not counting the T480-ThinkPad 25 Frankenpad which
is nuts.)

~~~
elipsey
I am typing this on $150 refurbished x230, I also have a t440s with a
retrofitted IPS screen, and t450 touchpad.

shhhhh..... stop telling the other hackers, they will buy them all! XD

~~~
imglorp
So the t450 touchpad is compatible with the t440s? Tell me it has real buttons
and doesn't tilt the pad to click!

~~~
elipsey
Most indeededly!

------
Zenst
Be nice if phones had a standard BIOS and allowed a competitive selection of
operatings systems. Worked well for PC's in the end and Linux being one of
many alternatives testaments that.

~~~
nordsieck
> Be nice if phones had a standard BIOS and allowed a competitive selection of
> operatings systems. Worked well for PC's in the end and Linux being one of
> many alternatives testaments that.

It worked out well for the PC platform. Not so much for IBM, though.

~~~
perl4ever
That made me go look for a long term stock chart. It's really kind of
interesting:

[https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/IBM/ibm/stock-
pric...](https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/IBM/ibm/stock-price-
history)

...it would seem IBM is still in a (very volatile) huge uptrend that started
in the early 90s.

Now that I think of it, you could say that if the PC platform worked out well
for Linux then Linux ended up working out well for IBM.

------
Jonnax
This actually is/was really good.

On my note 9 I can open a shell. Or with HDMI get a Ubuntu desktop.

Any ideas what Google changed in Android 10 to break compatibility?

~~~
bitwize
Could have to do with the fact that Google implemented new SELinux policies
preventing the running of binaries from an app's data directory. Any binaries
you run on Android 10 or later must be bundled in the apk and are read only on
the device.

I think Termux uses proot to get around this, so it still works (for now). If
this is indeed the reason, Samsung probably just said "fuck this shit".

Expect Google to push out a Fuchsia-based Android whose kernel won't allow the
proot hack sometime in the next few years. Like it or not, the closed
ecosystem of iOS provides more value to end users, and Google wants to bring
those benefits to Android.

~~~
FpUser
" _Like it or not, the closed ecosystem of iOS provides more value to end
users_ "

Is there any "official" proof for this statement? To me closed ecosystem of
iOs (and semi closed Android for that matter) look truly pathetic
comparatively to what I have on Windows/Linux desktop

~~~
m4rtink
There SELinux change & its impact on Termux is discussed in quite a detail
here: [https://github.com/termux/termux-
app/issues/1072](https://github.com/termux/termux-app/issues/1072)

~~~
rstuart4133
That is an interesting discussion.

Summary: the conundrum Google finds themselves in is they want all code run by
the user in plain sight: signed by the developer and inspectable by their anti
malware tools. It's not difficult to see why they want this.

The stand out counter example is Browsers downloading and running javascript,
which is unseen by them, unsigned and worst of all for them utterly impossible
to prevent entirely. So in Termux's case it's always going to be near
impossible to block interpreted languages like python from running.

The interesting special case is what they called mmap(PROT_EXEC), possibly
better called mmap(PROT_EXEC|PROT_WRITE). In other words, the ability to write
and execute create code on the fly. JIT's can't work well without it, so
without it Javascript is always going to run like a dog. But with it is is
always possible to load an ELF binary yourself in user space, bypassing the
kernel entirely. Termux could always replace the libc exec() with something
that did it that way.

So it looks to me like this is all just re-arranging the deck chairs.
Ultimately Google can't use technical measures to prevent any malicious app
from running any code they damned well please. Their attempts to accomplish
the impossible won't help the malware problem, but does make like difficult
for innocent apps like termux.

As others have said this have said, this has nothing to do with Samsung
killing Linux on Dex. Unlike Termux, they have to power to turn it all off.

------
hyperpallium
Might be because of _No more exec from data folder on targetAPI >= Android Q_
[https://github.com/termux/termux-
app/issues/1072](https://github.com/termux/termux-app/issues/1072)

~~~
pjmlp
Not really, Samsung is well known for having their own customisations to AOSP.

Your link is just the latest example how Android is not really Linux.

Project Treble drivers, NDK constraints, white listed syscalls are all
examples how userspace just gets to see a selective POSIX like OS.

------
mariusandra
This is very unfortunate, even through the writing was on the wall already for
a while [1]

I used LoD often. It was just perfect for on-the-go javascript hacking. In
fact at least 200+ commits to the Kea project [2] were written with Linux on
Dex.

The only issue I had was that with larger projects [3] when running in the
Mate desktop environment, I quickly ran out of inodes... and there was no way
to increment them. I had to turn off many things in vscode (file watcher) and
my projects (recompile on change) to have an usable system.

Time to look for alternatives. In the worst case I can just connect to a VNC
server somewhere (LoD also used VNC), but that requires constant internet
access and has issues of its own. LoD was just perfect for quick code writing
in airplanes, etc.

[1] [https://www.sammobile.com/interviews/dex-product-manager-
new...](https://www.sammobile.com/interviews/dex-product-manager-new-features-
greater-device-support/)

[2] [https://kea.js.org/](https://kea.js.org/)

[3]
[https://github.com/mariusandra/insights](https://github.com/mariusandra/insights)

------
MartijnBraam
Luckily there's still postmarketOS what accomplishes the same thing by
replacing android on android phones with an Alpine Linux install.

~~~
kick
It doesn't achieve the same thing. Linux on DeX had full driver support
because it was running on top of Android. postmarketOS has to play catch up.

~~~
MuffinFlavored
driver support for what hardware on the device specifically? Is it not open-
source? aka can it not be backported?

~~~
bri3d
Android's driver APIs and userland implementation are nonstandard. They have
their own libc (bionic) and their own linker. Vendors supply binary blobs for
many drivers (RIL, graphics, etc.).

These drivers need a series of compatibility shims to work with "normal
Linux," on both sides of the driver API.

The Kernel <-> Driver interface needs to be backported to Android's non-
mainline HAL, usually using Halium. The driver <-> userspace API needs to be
implemented, for example by xf86-video-hwcomposer or libhybris-libwayland-egl.
Finally, the blob needs a libc shim to work with normal libc (libhybris
itself).

[https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Hybris](https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Hybris)

~~~
MartijnBraam
I like to point out that most devices don't use hybris on postmarketOS

~~~
MuffinFlavored
and instead have native support?

------
fractalf
Purism to the rescue! Https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ ..at least it's a
start. Hopefully linux (FOSS) on mobile will eventually break through, it's
sucks bigtime being dependent on a device from apple/google

~~~
m4rtink
A decent regular Linux distro running tablet with a Wacom digitizer (precise
pen with pressure and tilt support) would be really nice with all the nice
graphics tools we already have (Krita, Mypaint, Blender, Inkscape, etc.).

At the moment the only alternative (not counting thd horrendously expensive
Windows running mobile studios sold by Wacom) is a couple high end Andrpid
tablets and the Ipad Pro & their bunch of proprietary drawing apps.

~~~
opan
Pine64 is working on the PineTab in addition to the PinePhone.
[https://www.pine64.org/pinetab/](https://www.pine64.org/pinetab/)

~~~
m4rtink
Interesting! But according to the specs I don't see any mention of pen
support, which is quite a shame due to all the possibilities precise pointing
enables on a tablet.

Oh well might still get it in case the price is right for other use cases. :)

------
nunodonato
I was going to get a Samsung tab s4 because of DeX. Oh well, glad I waited...

~~~
panpanna
Note that Linux on dex was an experiment that never made it out of beta.

dex itself will continue to live on.

~~~
nunodonato
dex has no particular interest, considering Android will have its own desktop
mode. It was linux that interested me

------
xs83
I've always imagined for a while that eventually our phones will become our
day to day "Grunt" for dumb workstations. I was hoping Linux on DeX would be
the start of this. Samsung DeX by itself is still pretty cool, If I am just
doing admin work / SSH it actually works pretty nicely with MS Office and
<favouriteSSHProgram> on a full HD monitor with Bluetooth keyboard and mouse.

I will probably just use this in future for when I am travelling and have to
do the occasional document / email etc

------
mark_l_watson
Too bad, it was a good idea to allow “one device for everything.”

I sometimes plug my iPad Pro into a USB-C interfaced large monitor and it is
nice having lots of working space but this is not laptop or desktop
replacement.

------
xd1936
Another article:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21295874](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21295874)

------
AdmiralAsshat
Linux containers on Android devices have a long history of failure. I wonder
if there's a technical reason why they keep going under, or if it's strictly a
lack of interest from end-users who want a Linux desktop environment on their
phones.

~~~
bhouston
No GPU acceleration was a big issue when I tried it.

------
smitty1e
Does this mean the Dex gadget itself is completely gone, or just 'Linux on
Dex'?

~~~
vetinari
Only linux on dex, dex itself will continue.

------
z3t4
It would be cool with a (hardware) switch that you can use to go back and
forth via Android and Linux? Or boot Linux and run Android ontop?

~~~
xnzakg
I actually had something similar setup on my previous phone - triplebooted
SailfishOS and two LineageOS installs.

Only issue is I never got things like the camera working in my port of
SailfishOS, and some Android apps I used wouldn't work when the phone was
rooted, which is why I had one rooted Android install and one unrooted. Also,
in order to switch you had to reboot into recovery and flash a zip changing
which partition to boot from.

Worked relatively well though.

~~~
voltagex_
There was a fork of one of the bootloaders (littlekernel?) allowing multiboot
way back when. There's also at least one EFI bootloader which would in theory
allow an easy/nice boot menu - reflashing to switch sounds extremely painful.

------
zmmmmm
Honestly, it makes me wonder if that whole program was really just part of
their negotiation for the (recently announced) partnership with Microsoft to
integrate Android and Windows. I can imagine them playing hard ball and
telling MS that if they don't team up then their alternative will be to build
out an entirely new OS based on this. Which honestly would have been quite an
interesting play.

