
LED street lighting the newest challenge to old utility business models - thaddeusmt
http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2013_11_26_Street_Fight
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greenyoda
NYC is starting to replace its sodium vapor street lamps with LED lamps, and
expects that all 250,000 of them will be converted to LED lamps by 2017:

[http://www1.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/343-13/mayor-
bl...](http://www1.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/343-13/mayor-bloomberg-
transportation-commissioner-sadik-khan-all-250-000-street-lights-in/#/0)

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BIair
I wonder what percentage of street lights actually have activity below them?
What about a motion sensing light that has dual-brightness levels? A lower
level when no pedestrian or car activity is detected, and a brighter level
when it is. Not only would this save energy, and look very cool when a car
drives down a deserted street as lights brighten in advance of it, but it
could enhance security as late night prowlers would have attention attracted
to them by neighbors and police.

~~~
ytjohn
Most of the lights near my towns exit ramp work off of light sensors (dusk to
dawn style). There are a couple where the sensor is either too sensitive or
angled incorrectly (so it picks up vehicle headlights). As your car
approaches, the light turns off. It's rather disconcerting when it happens.

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abduhl
An interesting con to this LED lighting movement is that I have heard from a
few CDOT engineers that the new LED lights do not put out enough heat to melt
through snow that accumulates during storms and this has caused issues for
traffic lighting. This is all second hand, of course.

~~~
tghw
Heat coils are very simple, as are thermostats. They could be added very
easily to run when it's cold enough out that it would be helpful.

~~~
abduhl
And try to get a contractor to put them in out of the goodness of their heart
or go through a rigorous study to prove equal compliance with federal and
state regulations? Surely you jest.

~~~
tghw
They could be built as a part of the light, since we're changing all of that
out anyway. _Really_ not that hard.

Also, contractors shouldn't be studying compliance for new things. And you
would pay them as you're installing the new lights. So not out of the
"goodness of their heart" either. In fact, I have no idea what you're trying
to get at here.

~~~
abduhl
Most items installed on a transportation project must meet the standard
specifications for the state which generally incorporates federal requirements
as needed. Anything installed must be "per spec" and manufacturers or
contractors installed items that are not per spec can be grounds for a refusal
of payment or refusal of acceptance.

Specifications compliance is solely the responsibility of the contractor (who
generally passes it on to the manufacturer).

In order to install your lighting the contractor would have to prove
specification compliance, include the additional cost of the lights, and still
win the low-bid process that almost all state and federal transportation
projects are subject to. Alternatively, the contractor could win the project
without the new lights and then come back with a value-added change order and
these are not uncommon in my experience.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's a good idea, it just isn't
feasible in the field in my opinion.

~~~
waterlesscloud
So we'll never have any new lights?

~~~
SwellJoe
Nope. No new technology of any sort is allowed in government ever. No
smartphones or tablets, because they don't meet the specifications for a
computer. No electric vehicles because they don't meet the existing
specification for automobiles that run on gas or diesel. Internet will never
meet the specifications for a telephone system being installed into a
government office...obviously that'll never fly.

Give up on anything new. Right now.

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sprokolopolis
My neighborhood in Los Angeles recently switched over to LED. I am happy that
they are trying to save money/energy, but having a bright white light outside
my window has been quite obnoxious. The older lights were dimmer with a more
natural light color.

~~~
Unosolo
Contemporary LED lighting does seem much harsher with very sharp shadows and
much less pleasant to the eye than older lights. I believe that lighting need
to be assessed on it's overall merits, not just based on brightness / cost
ratio.

~~~
sprokolopolis
Agreed. I am sure that they could tint/screen/soften the light to help make
them less intrusive. I would even be happy if they dimmed the lights. It
doesn't have to so bright for people to get around the streets.

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sudomal
They have been installing LED street lights in the UK for a while now. The LED
supplier approaches a council, the council agrees to pay the supplier the
difference between their normal and new lighting bill for X years. The
supplier gives them the relatively expensive LED lamps (which talk to each
other wirelessly) and management system. The council installs them. Supplier
makes money from the price difference.

~~~
csmuk
And they're horrible. They just put them in down my road and it's like prison
searchlights compared to the old lighting.

To add insult to injury they put CCTV cameras on every alternate lamp as well.

~~~
Angostura
And they're fine. They've just installed them in my area in East London.

The only disadvantage I've spotted is that, with the old Sodium vapour lamps,
it was easier to spot when a car was coming around a bend since the headlight
colour was significantly different to the ambient streetlighting. I'll adapt.

~~~
csmuk
Good point.

Perhaps they put good ones in your area. I live in a cheap borough.

These ones are so bright and not diffused at all. It makes silhouettes of
everything through my windows.

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the_french
I never realized the scale of energy consumption by streetlights, though when
I give it some thought, it's not all that surprising. I wonder if there would
be the possibility of using these lights to only illuminate the road and say
1-2m to each side, avoiding light pollution for people living near
streetlights. As it stands currently, the nearby streetlights keep my room lit
at night.

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ars
This doesn't make any sense.

A high pressure sodium vapor lamp has an efficiency of around 150 lm/W. An LED
has an efficiency of under 100 lm/W.

Where is the energy savings? If anything an LED uses more energy, not less.

~~~
adwn
> A high pressure sodium vapor lamp has an efficiency of around 150 lm/W

Source?

Allegedly, Cree has developed a white LED with up to 254 lm/W. [1]

[1] Cree Sets New Record for White LED Efficiency
[http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20120423/214494...](http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20120423/214494/)

~~~
ars
> Source?

It's poor form to ask for a source of something that would take you 15 seconds
to google.

> Allegedly, Cree has developed a white LED with up to 254 lm/W

Interesting considering that the theoretical maximum is 251 lm/W - so I wonder
which law of physics they violated to do that. (Most likely it's not actually
white, but reddish.)

And this time I will give you a source since this is a tiny bit harder to
google [http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/papers/lumens-per-
watt.pdf](http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/papers/lumens-per-watt.pdf)

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arsemouflon
This is how you add redundant non-information to a sentence: "semiconductor-
based, solid-state LED lighting".

Someone who doesn't know what a LED is surely won't understand that
"clarification". Marketing mindset!

~~~
dagw
Someone who doesn't know much about LEDs might come away thinking that these
are extra special LEDs, much better than the normal LEDs they're used to,
without the marketing team having to say anything that can possibly be
challenged. Marketing mindset!

(Se also the Mad Men episode where they come up with the new slogan for Lucky
Strike cigarettes)

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stkni
Apparently the predicted cost benefit of doing this in Manchester (UK) will
take 17 years to recoup[1]. If that's representative it doesn't seem hugely
compelling for municipalities to switch at current energy prices. In the UK at
least.

However I can see that it might well be disruptive for utility companies if
those municipalities should decide to switch anyway(as per the article).

[1] [http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-
manchest...](http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-
news/every-street-light-manchester-could-6290787)

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tzs
> and the fact that bugs are not attracted to LED lights as they are to the
> ultraviolet light cast from conventional street lights

Why is this listed as a benefit? A bug that is at the streetlight is a bug
that is not at my house. Is there some problem with bugs congregating at
streetlight that I'm selfishly ignorant of?

~~~
schiffern
What's with the anti-nature attitude? Bugs perform tons of ecosystem services
like pollination, food, decomposition, eating pests, fertilization, etc. A
complete food web is dynamically stable, preventing infestations. This is why
monoculture agriculture necessitates pesticides/herbicides/fungicides, btw.

Insects could live without us. We couldn't live without the insects. My
interest is entirely selfish. ;)

Of course, this is getting into much bigger issues than just streetlights...

 _Further reading:_ [http://lighting.com/light-pollution-
wildlife/](http://lighting.com/light-pollution-wildlife/)

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danudey
The Lion's Gate Bridge, which I believe is the busiest bridge in Vancouver,
BC, relatively recently upgraded their lighting to LED. It reduced power
consumption by 90%, and saves the city $30,000/yr in energy and maintenance.

In addition to the power savings, the old bulbs lasted an average of 72 hours
between replacements, while the new ones have an estimated lifetime of 12
years, and replacing them is the 'hidden' cost that a lot of people wouldn't
normally consider (and replacing bulbs mounted on a bridge is even worse than
replacing street lights).

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lions_Gate_Bridge#History](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lions_Gate_Bridge#History)

~~~
nkurz
You've accurately quoted the cited article, but that "72 hours" in the article
is itself uncited and has to be in error. Normal mercury bulbs are good for
10,000+ hours, and 100W is well within normal. Maybe it was supposed to be 72
months? If you are strong enough to wade into Wikipedia politics, the edit
came in here:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lions_Gate_Bridge&...](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lions_Gate_Bridge&diff=prev&oldid=305961034)

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abecedarius
Won't the blue in the spectrum from these disrupt people's sleep even further?
[http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletters/Harvard_Health_Let...](http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletters/Harvard_Health_Letter/2012/May/blue-
light-has-a-dark-side/)

~~~
dsr_
If you're sleeping under the streetlights, you have bigger problems.

~~~
abecedarius
It doesn't seem to take much exposure to damage your sleep. A friend reported
that the fluorescents in the subways made a real difference.

Our society is still really stupid about sleep.

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smackfu
Our town just voted to buy our street lights back from the utility. It's
projected to save us millions even before we upgrade them to LEDs. It's
notable that the utility is forced to offer to sell them back by a state law,
otherwise they would have no interest in it.

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NZ_Matt
The statement that Christchurch, New Zealand is leveraging 12 percent of the
$30 billion reconstruction fund for this type of project is wildly inaccurate.
The article referenced only discusses a potential $5m project.

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jmtthis
loosely related: charging electronic cars from street lights

[http://www.htwk-leipzig.de/typo3temp/pics/5e8c7a9140.jpg](http://www.htwk-
leipzig.de/typo3temp/pics/5e8c7a9140.jpg)

[http://www.elektromobilitaet-
verbindet.de/projekte/laternenp...](http://www.elektromobilitaet-
verbindet.de/projekte/laternenparken-ladeinfrastruktur.html)

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Eye_of_Mordor
Here's my plan: use street lighting for a wireless mesh and stick camera's in
each one so the NSA can keep us all safe.

~~~
maayank
csmuk's comment says they do just that in the UK (consider this comment as a
GOTO statement)

~~~
sudomal
More info here for those with an interest:
[http://www.leafnut.com](http://www.leafnut.com)

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Aloha
I call BS on this:

"But in most cities around the country, the local electric distribution
company provides overhead street lighting as a basic service at a flat monthly
rate per light, which includes the light itself, maintenance, and electricity.
Therein lies the rub—regulated utilities often have little incentive to invest
in more efficient streetlights, which offer a reliable, consistent, and often
lucrative revenue stream that comes at a time of day (or night) when demand is
low."

If their getting a fixed rate, LED's would be quite profitable for them due to
lower servicing costs, and lower power consumption - meaning for that fixed
rate, they take in more income.

Beyond that, in many cities - running and maintaining the streetlights is
included in the franchise rights to sell power in a given city - meaning to
sell power, the power company had to install and pays for the lights.

~~~
dingaling
It's also a statement only applicable to the USA.

In the UK the Roads Service ( NI ) or Highways Agency are responsible for the
emplacement and maintenance of lighting. So they'd be quite grateful for any
power saving, as the electricity distributors charge them for actual usage.

Another solution would be to eliminate most street lighting, but that's a
rather touchy subject.

~~~
Angostura
I think that's only on trunk roads isn;t it? The local authority has the
responsibility in towns.

