
Ask HN: Why do we think that “humans are the most evolved of 'all' animals”? - rohan_shah
Could it not be possible that snakes are evolved and are evolving to be the best venom producers? Elephants are evolved and evolving to become the biggest bodied organic creatures? Etc.<p>Not that I am trying to assign a life purpose to the animals or to humans, but just a question I&#x27;d in my mind.<p>I agree that humans might be most evolved to make use of the logical brain, but isn&#x27;t it the humans themselves who have given so much importance to logic.
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glial
If you don't know about the mantis shrimp, go look it up.

More seriously, "most" implies a direction that we conveniently orient in ways
that make humans seem superior. In my experience, linguists are particularly
guilty of this type of thinking -- language is something that 'only' humans
can do. What, prairie dogs can communicate semantic content using their voice?
Hold on while I move the goalposts...

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asdkhadsj
It's a loose term with little meaning.. or at least, without more effort to
restrict the data. Even in your examples.

I would think, if "most evolved" with no other information was used, some type
of bacteria or small, rapidly breeding being would vastly be "most evolved".
As evolution is merely about change over time, the number of iterations would
be all that matters, I would think?

I know nothing of the scientific terms backing any of this, so perhaps there
are measurable scientific methods for determining "most evolved". But I
suspect it is a common, mostly useless term.

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ksaj
The term is probably "most highly evolved."

The one thing that humans have evolved, over and above the other living
things, is the ability to abstract solutions to our evolutionary shortcomings.

For example, we can't breathe under water. But we can create the machinery
that mines the materials needed to create that machinery (nice pseudo chicken-
egg cycle) that creates the scuba gear and processes for filling them with
breathable air (diluted with helium or other inert gas to lower the risk of
"the bends"), and then using that gear to protect our skin (outerwear), swim
faster (flippers) and breathe without gills (tanks and breathing apparatus).

There are other tool-using animals out there. But they are at the first step
of tool usage, and lacking the layers of abstraction our tools employ.

We humans are less evolved for certain tasks than groups of other life. But we
are more highly evolved in that ability to abstract our knowledge of other
animal traits (flight, burrowing, erecting walls or damns, etc) and create
things that accomplish those evolved traits for us.

EDIT: Helium. Not ozone.

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iamgopal
You mean argon or nitrogen ? As ozone is highly reactive in nature.

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ksaj
Actually, nitrogen is what causes the bends as well as nitrogen narcosis,
making it toxic under pressure. And argon is even more narcotic under
pressure.

You are right, however, that ozone was the wrong gas of choice. I meant
helium.

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oh-moses
Who claims that "humans are the most evolved of 'all' animals"? And what do
they mean by "most" evolved?

Without this information it's hard to answer the question _why_ they're saying
that.

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Nursie
The fallacy starts with "most evolved". What does that mean?

You can say most intelligent, probably, you can measure other stuff... but
what does "most evolved" mean? Most DNA changes since the primordial soup? I
doubt we win on that.

I'm not trying to belittle the asker here, I know "most evolved" is something
of a trope. It's just one that's meaningless IMHO.

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mojomark
Ha, good point. I suppose you could say that, assuming the 'arrow of
evolution' always results in an improved adaptation to a living thing's
environment, that any creature is the "most evolved" relative to the DNA
history from which it stems. Then again, DNA mutations don't always result in
positive adaptations to an individual creature's environment; sometimes (most
often?) individuals degenerate relative to their predecessors.

So, maybe you can only fairly compare the degree of evolution between members
of the same species functioning in generally the same environment and
competing for generally the same resources.

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mcv
The only reason "we" think that humans are the most evolved of all animals, is
that "we" don't really understand evolution.

We are evolved for a specific niche, and so are all other animals. They are
just as evolved for their niche as we are for ours. And how evolved you are is
not very quantifiable, so what's "more evolved" or "less evolved" is not easy
to define.

I guess we're fortunate that our niche has turned out to translate very well
to an extremely diverse number of environments. We're good at cooperating and
transferring detailed, complex knowledge to new generations, and that has
allowed us to develop complex culture, technology, even allowing us to survive
in space.

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gvx
It's a complete misunderstanding of evolution as something where species
"level up" to become "more evolved", usually seen as more complex, stronger,
faster, smarter, etc. But in reality, evolution is adaptation to environment
by the process of natural selection. As long as you're surviving (or more
accurately your genes), you are "evolved". This is no more or less true for
humans, snakes, or Salmonella bacteria.

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eli_gottlieb
That claim is bullshit and we should stop making it. Evolution doesn't have a
direction or a teleology.

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wait-a-minute
But evolution does have a direction. Survival of the fittest! Those animals
most fit to reproduce survive and reproduce. Humans have done that and taken
over every other species with tools and general intelligence that no other
animal can hope to possess. We are what you would call the apex predator on
earth.

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zarkov99
I would not say more evolved, if by evolved one means complex. Plants actually
have more complex genomes than humans because they had to develop defense
mechanisms that work _even if they cannot move away from the threat_. I would
say humans are the most powerful of all animals.

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aoeuhtns
Practically no evolutionary biologist thinks that. All organisms living today
have evolved for equally long.

You've described a criteria - "logical brain" \- and then evaluated currently
living organisms based on that, and determined humans to be the highest on
that. That's not the same thing as being "most evolved".

Evolution has no "direction", no goal beyond the ability to survive. It's
dysteleological.

Recommend The Big Picture by Sean Carrol for an overall overview of related
questions.

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ma2rten
All life is evolving to survive and reproduce. This is the reason that snakes
have evolved to produce venom and that human have evolved logical thinking. We
have essentially placed ourselves above the food chain. At least in that sense
we are the most evolved.

However, that doesn't mean that we should consider ourselves superior to other
animals. It doesn't give us the right to destroy the plant and put other
living being into factory farms.

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zaat
> I agree that humans might be most evolved to make use of the logical brain,
> but isn't it the humans themselves who have given so much importance to
> logic.

No, humans are not evolved to make use of the logical brain. Humans have the
most evolved brain known to us, as well as the largest brain mass to size
ratio. As the brain is the most complex organ known, it is not unreasonable to
think of humans as the most highly evolved.

And anyways, what does it matter?

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ozzmotik
one word: anthropocentrism. it's easy to have a bias towards your species when
it's the one that frames the experience of your entire existence.

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BearOso
Exactly. We think in terms of what's important to humans. Maybe a tree thinks
what's important is to sit still and grow forever.

Also, if we can't perceive or measure any sort of higher order being, we're
going to think we're at the top of the food chain. We can speculate, but never
get any solid facts.

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neurokinetikz
Plants and animals are all different instances of the impulse of life. Plants
tend toward instinct, animals intelligence. Humans are the first species to
encode symbolic representations in matter. This capability is what has allowed
us to 'evolve' beyond all other life forms. The ability to believe that that
matrix is real ;)

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PavlovsCat
> Humans are the first species to encode symbolic representations in matter.

We are probably also the species most capable of alienation and getting
totally lost in the symbols we invent, taking them more seriously than what
they're supposed to represent. Since that might very well be a major lubricant
in our continuation of the course towards the destruction of our species and
the ecosystem it depends on, in my books the jury is still out on just how
advanced that is.

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sn9
If you're talking about biological evolution, this question is considered
nonsensical to those with a background biology.

Evolution is merely the change in allele frequencies in a population over
time. There is no herarchy or order one can impose to make a comparison of
"more" or "less" evolved.

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ykevinator
Because we are the ones making the observation. It's the same basis as
religion.

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jcranberry
I don't think there's a meaningful total ordering on 'how evolved' you are.

We probably have the best memory, and obviously the most complex society. But
I'm not sure whether that makes us 'more evolved'.

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DoreenMichele
Not everyone thinks that.

Asking this question is a bit like asking "Why do _we_ believe in God?"

And the answer is that belief in God is not universal. Also, if you really
talk to people in earnest, individuals who generally agree that God exists
don't agree on a lot of other things pertaining to God and will have come to
their belief by different pathways.

There are things for which there is enough consensus that it is socially
acceptable to talk about it publicly. That doesn't mean everyone agrees. That
just means most dissenters have the good sense to keep their thoughts to
themselves and those that don't get mocked, pilloried, etc.

See also Overton Window.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window)

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drdeca
Humans are higher/better, not “more evolved”.

