
Ask HN: What's the point of the TM and (R) symbols? - coldpie
I was reading that Mercedes-Benz PRE-SAFE(R) marketing prose, and it prompted me to ask this question that I&#x27;ve been wondering for a while: Why do companies mess up their text and logo images with TM and (R) symbols?<p>To be clear: I understand what trademark laws and registration are for. I am not asking for an overview of the theory of trademark law. I&#x27;m specifically asking why they insist on slathering TM and (R) symbols in text and in images. What horrible thing would happen if Mercedes-Benz had not awkwardly slapped (R) after every-other word in that article?
======
geori
To maintain a trademark and fight back infringement you have to repeatedly
claim it by putting those annoying symbols after it.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/383evo/e...](https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/383evo/eli5_why_do_brands_always_put_tm_or_r_after_their/)

~~~
ryandrake
Then why doesn't Apple, who have some of the most valuable trademarks in
existence, include a single (R) or TM in their (for example) iPhone marketing
[1]?

1: [https://www.apple.com/iphone-xr/](https://www.apple.com/iphone-xr/)

~~~
burnte
Some lawyers are more conservative about what they should and should not do.
Apple's lawyers put it all on one page:
[https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-
property/trademark/...](https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-
property/trademark/appletmlist.html)

Other lawyers want it everywhere possible. It's not required to be everywhere,
however, just sometimes.

I have one customer who is a franchisee and their franchiser company demands
the (R) everywhere because their MARKETER think it's "impressive" to people.

~~~
erichurkman
One old company of mine had an awful lawyer that even insisted on putting 'SM'
everywhere while we were going through trademark applications. There are still
dozens of permanent installations of their branding that show BLAHBLAH(sm). It
looks awful and served no purpose.

------
cestith
Those marks are notice of a claim. Known, willful infringement carries much
higher penalties than accidental infringement. There's also a protect-or-lose
standard in the US for trademarks that is unlike patents or copyrights.
"Vigorous defense" IIRC is the term.

Either the lawyers are having the copywriters maximize the notices to be very
clear, or the copywriters are told they need to include the symbol and are
being overzealous in how often they include it.

IANAL.

------
everdev
It's my understanding that the R, TM and C symbols are not required to enforce
trademarks / copyrights. So, if you register a trademark and forget to put TM
or R next to it, it's not like your content is suddenly fair game. Same goes
for C, they look at your history of public use, not the instances of a
copyright symbol.

However, those symbols signal to others that a trademark / copyright exists
and helps to discourage others from copying it.

INAL

------
chipotle_coyote
To answer your question directly: because companies are unduly paranoid. You
should use those symbols _once_ in a document, generally at the first use, but
there's no need to keep using it over and over.

~~~
astrodust
When Yahoo! ditched the stupid ® someone had to go around and physically
remove the thing from the branding on campus.

------
throwaway_law
(R) is only for registered marks, using it improperly can amount to Trademark
Fraud. Consult a lawyer not HN.

Improper use of the federal registration symbol, ®, that is deliberate and
intends to deceive or mislead the public or the USPTO is fraud. See Copelands’
Enters. Inc. v. CNV Inc., 945 F.2d 1563, 20 USPQ2d 1295 (Fed. Cir. 1991);
Wells Fargo & Co. v. Lundeen & Assocs., 20 USPQ2d 1156 (TTAB 1991) .

Edit: Otherwise those marks are used to put the public on notice of the claim
of the mark. A brand like Mercedes isn't worried about their marks/logos
looking ugly with the addition of (r) or (TM), they are worried about their
legal rights, and using those symbols (properly) will only assist in their
legal claims and enforcement of the same.

~~~
thaumasiotes
Sure, but how does the vendor benefit from including the (R) in their
advertising?

------
vanderZwan
I am not a lawyer, but I do know a famous example of how not including a ©
could result in the loss of protection in the past:

> _The copyright on this image has been repeatedly violated, and it has been
> widely reproduced on T-shirts, posters, belt buckles, mudflaps, and other
> items. In the early 1970s, Crumb 's lawyer started threatening lawsuits
> against anyone using the image without permission. Crumb and A.A. Sales, a
> producer of unlicensed Keep On Truckin' merchandise, reached a settlement of
> $750 for the past usage. But A.A. continued to sell unlicensed products
> after the settlement without paying additional license fees. In 1973, Crumb
> went to the U.S. Federal Court, and wound up in the courtroom of Judge
> Albert Charles Wollenberg, who had previously ruled against the Air Pirates.
> A.A. Sales claimed the work was in the public domain, because Crumb had not
> included the copyright symbol on the work, although he had in Zap #1 as a
> whole. The work was covered under the 1909 Copyright Act, and any omission
> of notice caused the work to be public domain. The drawing had appeared on
> the business card of Crumb's publisher without the copyright symbol. Based
> on that, Wollenberg granted A.A. Sales' request for summary judgment and
> Keep On Truckin' became public domain. In 1977, the Ninth Circuit Court
> reversed that decision, and it returned to copyrighted status._

Perhaps it is the similar for trademarks. Note that one no longer needs to
include the copyright symbol to maintain your copyright: (in the US)

> _In the United States, the Berne Convention Implementation Act of 1988,
> effective March 1, 1989, removed the requirement for the copyright symbol
> from U.S. copyright law, but its presence or absence is legally significant
> on works published prior to that date, and it continues to have effect on
> remedies available to a copyright holder whose work is infringed._

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_on_Truckin%27_(comics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_on_Truckin%27_\(comics\))

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_symbol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_symbol)

~~~
growtofill
But that's about copyright, not trademarks.

~~~
vanderZwan
> _Perhaps it is the similar for trademarks._

------
sixhobbits
Similarly, I see web developers manually or automatically updating the (c)
2019 in the footer of Web pages. My understanding is that you want to claim an
_older_ copyright date rather than a newer one in most cases so this is
counter productive except for the small "hey I'm modern and up-to-date"
content you're reading" signal it sends.

INAL

~~~
Isamu
By the way, it is widespread a myth that (c) is an acceptable replacement for
the copyright symbol or the word "copyright". That is, it makes for an invalid
copyright notice, BUT IT DOES NOT INVALIDATE YOUR COPYRIGHT, which is
automatic anyway (in the US.)

It is optional (in the US) to provide a valid notice, but if you really want
the extra benefits of a copyright notice, the notice must conform to the
copyright law. Note that outside of the US, a proper notice may be required,
not optional.

~~~
billpg
Random aside... The 80s BBC Micro required that ROM-based software included a
copyright message using "(C)" in the header. The OS would look for those three
ASCII bytes in the right place and ignore the ROM if it wasn't there.

~~~
luzjh
I don't remember the exact details but a console of the 90s did something
similar, but it was challenged in court and they lost

~~~
bitwize
The Sega Genesis required the string "SEGA" to be somewhere in ROM. They tried
to use this to gatekeep development for the system by threatening to sue any
unlicensed third-party developers for trademark infringement. They were, after
all, forced to use the "SEGA" mark if they wanted their game to run.

A federal appeals court ruled, in _Sega v. Accolade_ , that you can't use a
trademark that way. They also ruled that you can copy and reverse-engineer a
piece of software to determine functional aspects of the console's operation
for interoperability purposes.

It's perfectly legal to require a string somewhere in the header before
booting a ROM or running a program. (Otherwise, "magic number" checks to
determine if a program is in executable format would be illegal!) The Sega
case was specifically about using trademarks and copyright to restrict access
to functional aspects of your hardware.

~~~
coldpie
The Gameboy did similar. For some odd reason they only verified the top half
of the logo, though, so some devs got creative
[http://fuji.drillspirits.net/?post=87](http://fuji.drillspirits.net/?post=87)
Technical details here: [https://catskull.net/gameboy-boot-screen-
logo.html](https://catskull.net/gameboy-boot-screen-logo.html)

------
ergothus
1) Hey HN peeps - I'm disappointed in the number of people that are either not
addressing the actual question, or are simply offering speculation. I'm not
angry, just disappointed.

2) On the USTPO.gov site I found the following:

> What is the difference between TM and the R within the circle ®?

> Use of the TM and SM symbols may be governed by local, state, or foreign
> laws and the laws of a pertinent jurisdiction to identify the marks that a
> party claims rights to. The federal registration symbol, the R enclosed
> within a circle, may be used once the mark is actually registered in the
> USPTO. Even though an application is pending, the registration symbol may
> not be used before the mark has actually become registered.

> The federal registration symbol should only be used on goods or services
> that are the subject of the federal trademark registration.

> PLEASE NOTE: Several foreign countries use the letter R enclosed within a
> circle to indicate that a mark is registered in that country. Use of the
> symbol by the holder of a foreign registration may be proper.

And also:

> Do federal regulations govern the use of the designations "TM" or "SM" or
> the ® symbol?

> If you claim rights to use a mark, you may use the "TM" (trademark) or "SM"
> (service mark) designation to alert the public to your claim of a "common-
> law" mark. No registration is necessary to use a "TM" or "SM" symbol and you
> may continue to use these symbols even if the USPTO refuses to register your
> mark. Those symbols put people on notice that you claim rights in the mark,
> although common law doesn't give you all the rights and benefits of federal
> registration.

> You may only use the federal registration symbol "®" after the USPTO
> actually registers a mark, not while an application is pending. And it may
> only be used on or in connection with the goods/services listed in the
> federal trademark registration and while the registration is still alive
> (you may not continue to use it if you don't maintain the registration or it
> expires). Although there are no specific requirements on where the symbol
> should be placed relative to the mark, most businesses use the symbol in the
> upper right corner of the mark. Note: Because several foreign countries use
> "®" to indicate that a mark is registered in that country, use of the symbol
> by the holder of a foreign registration may be proper.

So, in the U.S., it appears there is no federal NEED to use these marks, aside
from being able to say that any infringer can't claim ignorance of your claim,
BUT that still leaves any state, county, local, or other nation usages
unanswered.

~~~
ebg13
> _I 'm disappointed in the number of people that are either not addressing
> the actual question_

What a weird complaint. 99% of your answer does not address the actual
question. The only relevant part of your answer is "those symbols put people
on notice that you claim rights" and you then neglect to say why that's
important.

~~~
ergothus
...and the rest is evidence that it's not speculation. The poster SAID they
understood trademark law, and specifically asked only about the symbols, so
posting "why that's [notice] important" was redundant and off-topic.

------
jbob2000
We just had a project in our app to _remove_ these. We had lists of credit
card names and they'd be ridiculous things like "Company(TM) Product(R)
VISA(TM) for Business(c)" and the client had no idea which credit card was
theirs because they signed up for "Product for Business".

Our legal team agreed that in functional contexts (like picking a credit card
name from a select box) we could omit the trademarks. But if we had a page
that listed all the features and restrictions about the card (non-functional
usage) then they must be there.

------
kls
R is a registered trademark, which means you have registered it with the
proper authorities TM is a self claimed trademark, which means that you
include it on your first use and you continue to claim it via using the TM. If
you have to defend it in court you have to prove that you had it in use before
the trademark infringement happened and that you continued to defend it via
using the TM mark. If you cannot prove that, then you run the risk of loosing
said trademark.

There is also SM which is a service mark, TM is generally used for goods or
products where a service mark is generally for services offered.

So to answer your question, they would loose their trademark and it would be
publicly available for anyone to use.

This has happened and almost happened to many companies when their product
becomes hugely successful and people start using their name as the generic
name for said item.

[https://www.businessinsider.com/google-taser-xerox-brand-
nam...](https://www.businessinsider.com/google-taser-xerox-brand-names-
generic-words-2018-5)

[https://www.gerbenlaw.com/university/trademark-
symbols/](https://www.gerbenlaw.com/university/trademark-symbols/)

~~~
smallbigfish
> TM is a self claimed trademark, which means that you include it on your
> first use and you continue to claim it

This feels like kids playing something silly like "mom and dad".

------
hluska
In theory, those symbols make it easier to demonstrate you show and claim a
mark. Yet, I have never heard of a trademark case failing because of a missed
symbol. In practice, they’re mostly about marketing - trust is so important in
digital marketing that signs like that get splashed around.

------
MentallyRetired
Anybody can claim a trademark (TM symbol), but only those who have registered
it with USPTO can claim the (R) for registered trademark.

Once you claim something as a trademark, you own it. You don't officially need
to file anything. HOWEVER, if you end up in court against someone with a
registered trademark, you'll likely lose unless you can establish "prior art".
Prior art means you've used the trademark _in commerce_ prior to the date they
did.

~~~
Silhouette
_Anybody can claim a trademark (TM symbol), but only those who have registered
it with USPTO can claim the (R) for registered trademark._

This is not true. It might be the legal position in the United States, but
other jurisdictions have their own rules and registration processes for
trademarks.

------
blue_devil
What I don't understand is how companies can do this with common language
words and hashtags; example, #betterplanet

------
Simulacra
Intimidation.

------
rajacombinator
These days their main purpose is to broadcast to the world that you’re a
dinosaur corporate zombie company.

