
Ask HN: Why aren't trains fully automated? - legostormtroopr
Prompted by this news article: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.brisbanetimes.com.au&#x2F;politics&#x2F;queensland&#x2F;just-17-5-per-cent-of-required-new-qr-train-drivers-ready-to-roll-20170901-p4yvog.html<p>Why are train drivers necessary in an increasingly automated world?<p>Trains run on fixed tracks, at fixed speeds, have fixed stops and have right of way (mostly because they are very difficult to stop quickly).<p>If there is an obstruction on the tracks, even if a human driver is in charge, a train is nearly impossible to stop.<p>So what are the challenges that prevent the cockpit of a train being replaced by a n automated driver?
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flukus
Are drivers a significant cost to running a train? Just like when optimizing
code, you have to profile first and go for the low hanging fruit. I'd be
willing to bet that the rolling stock and infrastructure are where the low
hanging fruit is.

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gregoriol
In Paris, "ligne 14" of the subway has been built fully automated, it opened
in 1998 (~20yrs ago now!). "ligne 1" has also been transformed from manual to
automated in 2012. "ligne 4" is in progress of being transformed.

This is possible. Easier for subway because the tracks are fully protected
from any external impact: trees, animals, cars, humans, ... There has been a
problem once with some stuff that fell onto the track from works on a roof.
Quite rare in the subway though compared to trains.

Also, in a subway, the distance would be shorter for employees of the company
to come and assist passengers: it might take a few minutes between stations,
where it could take dozens of minutes, even hours, on train tracks.

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auxym
The first line of Vancouver's fully automated Skytrain was deployed in 1986!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTrain_(Vancouver)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTrain_\(Vancouver\))

Similar systems exist around the world: JFK Airtrain, Kuala Lumpur LRT, a few
places in china (Beijing IIRC?)

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byoung2
I'm guessing there's a union involved somewhere, and automation would threaten
jobs.

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Rjevski
This and also the fact that implementing automation would cost too much in the
short-term than employing human drivers, so nobody wants to do it.

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Roshie5u
Removing driver is not the goal, at least for now. Look at ETCS operation
modes:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Train_Control_System#...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Train_Control_System#Operation_modes_in_ETCS)

By design it support exceptional situations where full automation is not
possible. Also infrastructure will need decades for upgrade. Currently even
routes used by high speed trains aren't 100% covered and there is low or none
financial incentive to upgrade old, regional lines.

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db48x
I was on Amtrak a few years back and we made an unscheduled stop out in the
middle of nowhere. A few minutes later, one of the conductors got on the
intercom to let us know that the train had run over a shopping cart, and that
they were going to have to dig the mangled remains out from underneath the
engine.

I went back to my game and we were under way soon enough, but can you imagine
if an engineer had to drive out to meet the train and put it back into
operation? We would have waited hours just for them to drive hundreds of miles
out to where the train was. I imagine it's less of a problem on a little
subway system.

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limeblack
There was a brief discussion about this the other day after talking about
autonomous cars here
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15116967](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15116967)

The biggest key take away I read was the problem with "unions" and the
following.

> If we had autonomous planes it wouldn't significantly reduce cost or
> increase usage...

Cars have 2 or 3 passengers per drivers while trains often have dozens. Cost
per person ratio is different.

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botten
There are fully automated trains. However full automation requires not just a
capable "train cockpit" but also a capable signal system (with supporting
auxiliary systems). Introducing the latter is, as far as I can tell, the
hard/expensive part.

As a note, not all trains have fixed speeds or fixed stops. As an example some
signal systems may allow a train to enter a section where another train is
already present if the driver drives slow enough to be able to stop before
colliding.

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Rjevski
It depends on the area - not sure which region you're talking about (I guess
Australia) but for example in the UK rail operators are private companies and
there are multiple of them - they build maintain their rolling stock
independent of each other, so the challenge would also be to convince/force
them all to agree on a standard network/communication protocol for their
trains.

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PeachPlum
NetworkRail runs the tracks and most of the stations, so they could mandate a
system.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Rail](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Rail)

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notahacker
Some trains are fully automated, and machines have been able to handle general
operation of a train better than a human for a while. But train drivers have
some advantages when it comes to making decisions on shutting doors, handling
emergencies, and making out announcements and their cost is spread over a lot
of passengers so eliminating them has never really been a priority.

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Rifu
There's already a lot of these types of trains all over the world[0]

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_subway_systems#Grade_of_Automation_4_Systems)

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ionised
Not sure how accurate this is but a colleague told me that some trains on the
London underground are fully automated, but they still have staff standing in
the driver compartment to put passengers at ease.

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davidhbolton
That's the DLR (Dcoklands Light Railway).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docklands_Light_Railway](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docklands_Light_Railway)
Just 20 years old. I used to work at Canary Wharf, so it was a 15 minute ride
from Stratford.

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Sevii
You still want someone on the train for emergency repairs, so why not let that
person drive it?

