
Works With Nest - Doubleguitars
https://nest.com/works-with-nest/
======
chaz
Google's Nest seems to be setting out a home automation standard, partnering
with Whirlpool, Mercedes-Benz, Jawbone, LIFX, IFTTT, Logitech, and
Chamberlain. Over the weekend, Quirky announced its $79 Wink hub, partnering
with Home Depot, Honeywell, GE, Rachio, and Philips.

The two announcements were obviously timed against each other. It's hard to
tell who is reacting to whom, but my bet is that Quirky is hurriedly reacting
to a pending Google I/O announcement this week, and getting the word out by
giving the NYT an exclusive [1]. It also looks like Nest has an actual,
planned microsite vs Quirky, who only has mention of GE on their website
([https://www.quirky.com/ge](https://www.quirky.com/ge)) and doesn't have much
of an official Wink page yet
([https://www.quirky.com/wink](https://www.quirky.com/wink) is bare).

Add to that Apple's Homekit, announced at WWDC, partnering with Osram
Sylvania, Skybell, TI, Chamberlain, August, Honeywell, Haier, Schlage,
Philips, Black and Decker, Netatmo, Withings, and others. More brands/logos,
but it's early.

Regardless, it's at least a three-horse race and we'll see it get worse before
it gets better. All have serious brands on board and consumers will be
confused for quite some time. A single, open, interoperable standard is coming
but the race will encourage a flurry of product investments to get smarter
devices in the initial stages.

[1] [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/23/technology/quirky-hopes-
wi...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/23/technology/quirky-hopes-wink-will-
speed-adoption-of-smart-home-products.html)

~~~
brianmcc
I really, really, wish we could skip the whole vhs/betamax stage for once :-(
Not only is it tiresome, it inhibits adoption across the board, we've all been
there too many times before.

~~~
nicksergeant
I'm not so sure. Doesn't this stage allow the market to dictate which features
are important to (albeit early-adopter) consumers?

~~~
Mister_Snuggles
In a way it does, but it also hurts the early adopters that picked the wrong
standard.

As a kid I was in a Betamax family. After that, I've learned to not be an
early adopter when companies start pulling this garbage.

~~~
brianmcc
It's probably unavoidably a time of turmoil - with so much at stake there's a
disincentive for all companies to universally "place nice".

A cambrian explosion of standards and partnerships from which most likely one
or two durable standards will emerge, hopefully the "best", is natural - but
painful if you're impatient to just get something done.

------
dirktheman
I'm really curious how this will pan out. In Europe (or at least here in The
Netherlands, not 100% sure about the other countries) we can't use the Nest
thermostat because our central heating boilers and thermostats use the
OpenTherm protocol. ([http://www.opentherm.eu/](http://www.opentherm.eu/))

Also, most boilers in Europe are of the modulating kind (not a simple on/off
switch, but a more graduate gas consumption. Side note: I really don't get why
they don't have this in the US. It's so much more efficient...).

So, we can't use Nest. Apple and Quirky announced they'll be working with
Philips and Honeywell, two companies that do offer modulating, OpenTherm
thermostats. No word on if they're actually going to integrate OpenTherm,
though. I'll be following this closely!

~~~
robmcm
I have a Nest in the UK, they launched a few months back.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
I think they had to change the design for the UK (compared with the US model),
but it was more to do with the electricity supply than the boiler design.

~~~
robmcm
Yeah they are simpler in the UK, no one cools their house for example ;)

------
jpalomaki
It gets pretty interesting when you connect all the pieces Google now has.

You car has build in Android device. Your home is monitored and controlled
with Nest devices. On your wrist you carry Android wearable. Google Glass
tracks what you see. For online activities you use Google products (Chrome,
Gmail, Calendar). You consume your media via Android table or Chromecast.

Google knows about your your car. It knows how you are doing, how much and
when you exercise, when and how you sleep (vital signals via wearables). It
could know who you are meeting with or what products you are browsing at
grocery store or what you are reading from news paper (Google Glass). It knows
and controls your home. It knows about your planned trips, about stuff you
have ordered online (Gmail, Calendar).

One major area that is lacking is nutrition, monitoring what and how much I
eat. Google Glass might help here (or products like Vessyl).

Interesting to see what they can make out of this.

~~~
cbeach
Given Google's fondness for shutting down APIs and services, I'd be very
disappointed if they monopolised all of these markets. They'll be the
Microsoft of home automation. Using it to trap people in their monolith (and
Android is just a vehicle for them to deliver ads, folks), and then letting it
stagnate or shutting it down if the ad delivery doesn't prove lucrative.

I've been burnt so many times by Google I've lost count. Shutting down the
Finance API, banning me from Adsense without explanation, shutting down
Reader, cutting email deliverability across gmail from my server. Tying the
wrong product reviews to my website on Google search.

I don't want one company to rule the internet. I don't want a MS-esque
services monolith. I want a few product-focussed companies like Nest to exist
and compete indepently using open standards.

~~~
crdoconnor
>and Android is just a vehicle for them to deliver ads, folks

They are dealing with that 'problem' by steadily de-opensourcing all of the
components. You don't use the email app, you use gmail. You don't use the
camera any more, you use "google camera". You don't even use the keyboard any
more, you use "google keyboard". A lot of the new android functionality is
piled into 'google play services'.

I don't think the day is that far off where the 'next' version of android will
be all closed source, and if you want all of those closed source apps that you
depend on to continue working, you'll need to install it.

At that point they can start charging fees for android's use.

~~~
personZ
While cbeach's comment that you replied to is trollish nonsense, in response
to your reply-

 _You don 't use the camera any more, you use "google camera". You don't even
use the keyboard any more, you use "google keyboard". A lot of the new android
functionality is piled into 'google play services'._

Or you use other email clients, alternative cameras, or alternative keyboards.
That's kind of the point of Android, and in splitting their own apps off
Google is simultaneously making the platform _better_ by opening the APIs
required by them. For instance the camera API has gotten dramatically better -
[http://source.android.com/devices/camera/camera3_3Amodes.htm...](http://source.android.com/devices/camera/camera3_3Amodes.html)

 _At that point they can start charging fees for android 's use._

Google _already_ charges partners for Google apps. Samsung is paying Google.
This has always been the case with Google. Further most of those apps have
been separate concerns since something like Android 1.5, and the platform is
dramatically better for it (e.g. the whole fragmentation thing is far less of
a concern, because the core platform shrinks to just core services, exactly as
it should be).

------
tmuir
Yet another hammer looking for a nail. There is no killer app in home
automation. Hackers like this stuff, because we like technology for
technology's sake. But everyone else has a higher standard for adopting new
gadgetry. It has to actually solve a problem, or otherwise provide value. Even
the best use cases are largely novelties that will get about two days use.
Turning on lights remotely? How often do you need to turn on lights when you
aren't physically in the space being lit. Starting a
washer/dryer/oven/dishwasher remotely? How will you load/unload the
clothes/food/dishes remotely? Unlocking your door with a phone instead of a
key? It looks cool the first two times, but novelty isn't enough.

Everyone seems to be worried about the competing standards and walled gardens,
which assumes that this space will take off to the point that it even matters.

~~~
notatoad
I'm optimistic about nest - they seem to understand this, their thermostat is
a great user experience. You hook it up and use it just like you would use a
normal thermostat, and it uses that info to make intelligent decisions to do
actually useful things - like override the schedule and turn the heat up when
you take a day off work, or turn the heat down when nobody is home, all with
no user interaction.

Remote control isn't the killer app for home automation, no control is. I
don't have a need to turn lights on in rooms I'm not in, but it would be nice
if my house could turn the lights off for me when I forget to. Or if I drive
off and leave the garage open, it could close it for me so I don't have to
call a neighbor and ask them to check it.

~~~
potatolicious
> _" like override the schedule and turn the heat up when you take a day off
> work, or turn the heat down when nobody is home, all with no user
> interaction."_

Useful sure, but is it _that_ useful? Which is to say, will people choose it
over walking over and twisting a knob?

The same argument can be made for motorized blinds. Sure, yeah, it'd be kind
of cool for your blinds to raise and lower themselves with the day/night
cycle. Or I can just yank that cord over there.

Ditto the garage door thing. It'd be _nice_ to have a system that just closes
the door for me, but I'd call my neighbor, what, once a year to check on my
garage? Worth a $100 system + installation + integration into some larger,
overarching home automation network?

That's the problem with home automation, it's a bunch of janky, expensive,
high-maintenance tech that solves a "problem" that nobody was really that
bothered by. It's an incredibly minor incremental improvement that solves a
pain that was never actually painful, and it has historically required a lot
of infrastructure/installation in the home.

The new stuff is lowering a lot of the installation/infrastructure pain, but
it's still relatively expensive, and for the most part their improvements are
so minor, and the original problem so inconsequential, that I don't think
they'll see mainstream market success. IMO none of this will take off until
they find the "Killer App", the one that solves a problem that _really_
bothers people.

~~~
notatoad
I don't know how everybody else gets their nests, but I pay flat rate for
power and my power company gives them out for free because it works out
cheaper for them in the long run. So no, I probably wouldn't pay extra for a
nest thermostat and the small amount of convenience it offers, but I like
having it.

~~~
joezydeco
Once the Nest API gets more mature, watch power companies give these out with
the ability to remotely turn your A/C up if the power grid starts to sag (that
whole "rush hour" concept they're pushing).

------
AVTizzle
Looking at the Nest lineup, I was reminded of that adage: "Google is getting
better at design faster than Apple is getting better at web services."

Those products look damn good.

~~~
cbeach
Of course they look good. They were designed by the Nest team, not by Google's
own designers. Nest was an acquisition, and I can't see those guys getting
involved in the huge challenge of making Google's other properties look good.

~~~
AVTizzle
You're absolutely right. I understand, and completely agree. But by virtue of
said acquisition, Nest's design chops == Google's design chops.

~~~
hueving
Well nest is still independent from what they want people to believe at least,
so it's actually unlikely that the nest designers will help any other Google
products.

It's like saying Tina Fey is part of Comcast's acting talent because of her
role in 30 rock.

------
warcode
If its "Your data. Your privacy. You’re in control.".

Why won't they let me self-host? The two things don't add up.

~~~
ghayes
My primary concern is my house becoming part of Google's walled garden. "Oh,
my garage door doesn't work anymore as it is controlled exclusively by 'Works
with Nest.'"

~~~
bybjorn
Yup, being locked out of your Google account will mean no email AND no access
to the car in your garage! :p Too many eggs in in one basket.

------
steven2012
I have a Nest. Nest doesn't allow you to access your own data that they are no
doubt collecting, and their app only shows your energy use for the last 10
days. This makes it absolutely useless for trying to figure out how to
optimize your energy usage on a month-to-month or season-by-season basis.

~~~
leviathant
[https://developer.nest.com/documentation/api-
reference](https://developer.nest.com/documentation/api-reference)

For a while, you could pull that data through a private JSON API, the same one
the iPhone app used. I'm assuming something changed a few months ago though,
because the application I wrote to chart out that information stopped
receiving those data points. This was probably part of the transition to a
public API.

Using the API, I was able to see that running just the fan in my house didn't
appear to do anything for the temperature of the house, despite the
temperature difference between the two floors. It was interesting charting
internal temperature against outdoor temperature as well, giving me a visual
reference on the efficiency of the system.

~~~
ceejayoz
One of the prohibitions when signing up for the developer program is this:

> [Prohibited] Collect, aggregate, re-syndicate, retain, log or store Customer
> Data (as defined below) received via the Nest API beyond 10 trailing days
> from the date when the data is received.

~~~
Karunamon
I wonder if the privacy "advocates" (and I really want to use the word
"whiners" here) are to blame for that particular restriction. I can't see a
business case for Nest to disallow that.

~~~
ceejayoz
It may be that they plan to introduce long-term energy use stats and
information.

------
vanadium
We're looking at the first top-tier market adoption of a home automation
system, albeit it amongst two, soon to be three, products and the opening
salvo that'll really stir the pot with other players (Honeywell, Apple, et
al.) and open wide the automation market for maturation.

I worked developing interfaces for bespoke home automation systems with a
small company out of Georgia in the early 2000s (Listman, if anyone's even
familiar with them; they were a blip on the radar later bought by Leviton but
quite advanced for their day) but all of these were closed-circuit systems
with a then-innovative iPaq to control their environment from afar.

How far the industry's finally become since those days with this announcement;
actual platforms are finally here.

~~~
kanwisher
Lol I was engineer number 6 there. Matt Campbell

~~~
vanadium
Man, glad to reconnect; I remember you. Was there Mid-Late 2001 on the portal
and handheld redesign/dev projects.

------
alexandros
In other words, Google wants to turn Nest into a platform for the house, some
kind of Android equivalent. Looking forward to seeing their next steps. If I'm
right, some kind of appstore I would imagine.

So far they've focused on big brands, if this fails it would be because of
insufficient trust from developers, but Android shows people can look the
other way if there's enough of an incentive.

~~~
gravity13
|| some kind of appstore I would imagine.

Extrapolation != predicting the future. You can't just download an android app
to fluff your pillows before you get home, it's about integrating the house
with new devices.

|| if this fails

This won't fail.

~~~
nardi
Consider: the vast majority of people who have money to spend on home
automation have Apple products.

~~~
gravity13
Yeah, but mine's got a crack on the screen. I stopped caring to notice it.
It's a couple years old, hasn't had a new app installed on it in months, and
is fulfilling many utility roles in my world.

I want something to excite me again.

------
julianpye
The original Nest device is so popular among the general population because of
its UX, display and colorful feedback. "Works with Nest" is amazing for us
techies, who know the technical feat behind all this interoperability, but to
the average consumer transparent technology and complex automation is a really
hard sell. The mass market consumer still want to touch, feel and see the
things they pay for. However as a 'shop hub' for great designed devices that
play along, "Works with Nest" is great. Also I am sure "Works with Nest" is a
great vehicle for corporate deals of Google, since it allows them to do co-
promotions (such as Mercedes) as side-projects which are usually embedded in
such agreements.

~~~
Shivetya
Popular amongst whom? They have sold only a million of their thermostats since
they came out. if anything their marketing and web facing has conveyed them as
more popular than reality.

As interesting as they are they are priced out of the market for far too many
people. Considering many homes come with programmable thermostats, in some
areas new homes have to have them, this becomes close to a frivolous purchase.

If anything it should tell entrepreneurs that there is a golden opportunity
for a low cost home automation solution.

Oh, its UX, colorful feedback, etc... uh I cannot recall the last time I ever
cared about my thermostat. Its set and forget.

------
yitchelle
I am a little bit unenthusiastic about Nest integration into the Mercedes Benz
where it tells Nest to warm up the house prior to arrival. What a waste of
energy! Is it so difficult for physical human body to endure some discomfort
while the house warms up? Imagine thousands of household doing something
similar.

OK, there could be a use-case where the elderly is due to arrive home and
needs the house to be at the right temperature for health reasons. But this is
clearly not the use case being put forward by Nest. It uses s luxury Mercedes
Benz and is spinning it for luxury market.

~~~
vnorby
Wasting/saving energy is not as simple a calculation as that. When energy is
at peak use (say in the winter, around 5:30/6:00 when everybody returns from
work), it becomes more expensive for energy companies to procure the requisite
energy needed. During these peak times, they often have to buy energy from
other companies at a higher cost or find less efficient means of generating it
(e.g. coal) to meet the demand. Getting an accurate picture of estimated
energy demand can actually save a lot of money/energy for customers.

I work at Nest and it may be a little unclear at the moment (we're working on
it), but The Nest API does not guarantee that if you send an ETA of 15 minutes
(docs: [https://developer.nest.com/documentation/eta-
guide](https://developer.nest.com/documentation/eta-guide)), the home will
heat to the appropriate level in 15 minutes. It's actually filtered through
our algorithms to determine the best course of action to not waste energy but
also provide the appropriate level of comfort.

~~~
ars
I looked into the nest but I don't think it would save me any energy. And I'm
wondering if that's actually true for lots of people.

I have a modulating (i.e. change flame level) condensing boiler (the highest
efficiency available). I programmed it to run as close to 24/7 as I could,
because that way it uses the lowest flame, which is the most efficient flame.

When I tried a setback thermostat when the boiler attempted to rewarm the
house it shifted to a higher and therefor less efficient flame. So I gave up
on that and let it run on low all the time. So there would be no peak usage by
me.

As people shift to more efficient ways to heating I suspect that this will
happen to everyone. Not just modulating boilers, but also multi-stage heating
with a heat pump. By trying to rapidly heat the home you can't use the heat
pump.

It's also true with an A/C - the faster you are trying to cool the larger
temperature gradient you need, and therefor you lose efficiency.

If I'm wrong here I would be happy to be corrected, but the US Government
seems to agree with me:
[https://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=archives.thermostats_...](https://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=archives.thermostats_spec)

~~~
mhandley
_It 's also true with an A/C - the faster you are trying to cool the larger
temperature gradient you need, and therefor you lose efficiency._

I'm not sure that's always correct. The Coefficient of Performance (heat
moved/work done, higher COP is better) of an A/C is:

COP = T_hot / (T_hot - T_cold).

T_cold is the inside temp, T_hot is outside of the heat exchanger. The narrow
the temperature range, the better the COP. Thus the A/C will actually be more
efficient in terms of heat moved per watt while it's cooling a warm house down
than when it's already cool.

There's one other factor that applies. The rate of heat transferring into the
house is proportional to the temperature difference. Once the house has warmed
up, you reach equilibrium. The net heat flow stops, so the total amount of
energy you need to remove later stops rising. If you run the A/C all the time,
heat is transferring in all the time. So the total amount of heat you need to
move back outside in a day increases significantly if you leave the A/C on.

~~~
ars
I was assuming a home that never warmed up to ambient, but just partly, and a
multi-stage A/C. (But forgot to say that in my message.)

Without those assumptions your analysis is correct, and a setback thermostat
seems to always be a win for A/C.

------
aisenik
"Interesting" that they're avoiding supporting HomeKit. But given that the
majority of Nest owners own iOS devices, it sure feels like a slap in the
face.

Supporting HomeKit would allow Siri integration, but I suppose Google probably
wants voice control to themselves.

~~~
Niten
It was Apple that chose to make HomeKit a nonstandard, proprietary protocol
for the purpose of locking people into iOS. You simply cannot fault Google for
failing to fall in line with Apple's play for the market.

~~~
aisenik
Putting HomeKit behind MFi is a barrier, but hardly one that should put Nest
off the platform. The majority of their installed user base uses iOS. I kind
of expected my Nests to last me 10+ years, but now I'm left wondering if I'll
be replacing them sooner. (It's not clear to me how Nest's API is any more
standard than HomeKit.)

Of course, from a business perspective this all makes sense. But as a
customer, it's disappointing.

It doesn't feel coincidental to me that Nest will support geofencing and
native voice control on Android while doing the same with an iOS device is
likely to require the Google app and a Google account. You might see that as a
win against "nonstandard" proprietary protocols but I don't see any upside for
me.

~~~
andybak
Choosing to install a Google app on an Apple device is a much lower barrier
than there not even being an Apple app for a Google device.

I'm no lover of walled gardens but one that allows you entry without buying a
$700 smartphone is the lesser of two evils.

I was discussing the cost of laser barcode scanners with someone the other day
and the few models that are iOS certified are significantly more expensive due
to MFi.

~~~
antimagic
One requires you "buy entry" with a $700 smartphone. The other requires that
you "buy entry" by giving access to your personal data to a company that has
demonstrated that it doesn't care about your privacy. Neither option is
objectively "less evil", it depends on the priorities of the user. I for one
will only willingly hand Google the keys to my data when hell freezes over or
Apple and Microsoft go bust.

~~~
andybak
I think there's a certain amount of histrionics here what with bringing up the
whole 'evil' thing and your phrase "doesn't care about your privacy'.

I would have bought a more reasoned argument - getting into bed with Google
demonstrably involves a tradeoff in terms of privacy - but I feel we're just a
small step away from the days of 'Micro$oft' comments on Slashdot now.

~~~
antimagic
I don't think "Google doesn't care about your privacy" is histrionics. Let me
remind you of a few examples:

1) [http://gizmodo.com/what-the-google-street-view-wi-fi-
decisio...](http://gizmodo.com/what-the-google-street-view-wi-fi-decision-
actually-mea-1332161134) "Google did this to enhance the accuracy and
precision of its location based services. But it also captured "payload data,"
or the actual data transmitted through the Wi-Fi networks, including emails,
usernames, passwords and more."

2) [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/google-wifi-
passwor...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/google-wifi-passwords-
android_n_3936809.html)

Google might have access to WiFi passwords used by every single Android user,
a new report suggests. That is a whole lot of WiFi passwords -- maybe most of
them in the world.

“If an Android device (phone or tablet) has ever logged on to a particular Wi-
Fi network, then Google probably knows the Wi-Fi password,” Computer World's
Michael Horowitz wrote last week. “Considering how many Android devices there
are, it is likely that Google can access most Wi-Fi passwords worldwide.”

3) [https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/google-ceo-eric-
schmid...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/google-ceo-eric-schmidt-
dismisses-privacy) Yesterday, the web was buzzing with commentary about Google
CEO Eric Schmidt's dangerous, dismissive response to concerns about search
engine users' privacy. When asked during an interview for CNBC's recent
"Inside the Mind of Google" special about whether users should be sharing
information with Google as if it were a "trusted friend," Schmidt responded,
"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't
be doing it in the first place."

4) [http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/mar/06/google-
gla...](http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/mar/06/google-glass-threat-
to-our-privacy) Google doesn't want to discuss these issues. "We are not
making any comment," says a company spokesperson. But other sources suggest
that Google's chiefs know that this is a live issue, and they're watching it
develop. That's part of the plan behind the "Glass Explorer" scheme, which
aims to get the devices into the hands – or rather, on to the faces – of
ordinary people (and which enabled one member of the trial to putatively
auction their Glass).

5)[http://techcrunch.com/2010/02/12/google-buzz-
privacy/](http://techcrunch.com/2010/02/12/google-buzz-privacy/) "Merging
something designed for public broadcasting (Buzz) with something inherently
private (Gmail) was just looking for trouble."

This is a long term pattern - I've got to the point where I just expect Google
to not worry about my privacy as a default position, until such times as they
get significant pushback, which may be too late for some users. Call that
histrionic if you like, I call that learning from experience...

~~~
andybak
I wasn't arguing that Google has a whiter than white reputation on the privacy
front and I'm aware of all the issues you listed.

I would argue however that they vary in severity and also in terms of
intentionality. The most severe transgression is probably the wifi sniffing
but there's no strong evidence that this was a deliberate policy decision at a
high level.

The wifi password issue has got a fairly plausible technical/UX explanation -
which you may or may not disagree with - and no evidence other than
speculation that there is anything nefarious going on.

I could go on. I think reasonable people agree there have been some genuine
abuses from Google but munging these together with speculation, insinuation
and things Eric Schmidt should have thought a bit harder before saying is
where I get a whiff of M$-style conspiracy thinking.

~~~
antimagic
Huh? My claim was that Google doesn't care about privacy. I backed up that
claim with a bunch of examples where Google rode roughshod over the privacy of
individuals. There was no speculation or insinuation, there were just clearly
presented examples.

What you seem to be missing is that all of those examples I gave point to a
culture at Google where privacy is a secondary concern. Yes, things Schmidt
said as CEO matter when you're talking about culture. The other examples are
things that just would never happen at a company where privacy is taken
seriously - you don't see Apple swiping passwords, or recording wi-fi data,
when they could easily have done so.

~~~
andybak
Like I said - I agree with you that Google has crossed the line on more than
one occasion but I still think some of your examples don't carry enough weight
to warrant saying that Google is a lost cause with regard to privacy:

1\. This one is pretty bad but my gut feeling is that it wasn't a high-level
nefarious decision but a mid-level manager or engineer who went too far. 2\.
Devices needs to store the wifi keys in the clear, device settings are backed-
up in the cloud. Storing them encrypted would require an extra password.
There's probably a solution to this but are you suggesting Google has a plan
to illegally login to private Wifi networks? That would be a criminal offence
and definitely in tinfoil hat territory. 3\. Yeah - I think that was a dickish
comment and I wonder if he regretted it the minute it was out. 4\. What did
you expect them to say? 5\. Dumb move but more a part of their desperate need
to defend against Facebook. It's hard to see this as anything other an
incompetent attempt to grow Buzz quickly.

Interestingly you missed out one of the stronger cases you could have made -
the nymwars - which I think were an attempt to push the public/private
boundary in their favour.

~~~
andybak
(Sigh. Replying to myself with a better formatted version because I can't edit
the post and I never remember the arcane markup rules round here)

Like I said - I agree with you that Google has crossed the line on more than
one occasion but I still think some of your examples don't carry enough weight
to warrant saying that Google is a lost cause with regard to privacy:

1\. This one is pretty bad but my gut feeling is that it wasn't a high-level
nefarious decision but a mid-level manager or engineer who went too far.

2\. Devices needs to store the wifi keys in the clear, device settings are
backed-up in the cloud. Storing them encrypted would require an extra
password. There's probably a solution to this but are you suggesting Google
has a plan to illegally login to private Wifi networks? That would be a
criminal offence and definitely in tinfoil hat territory.

3\. Yeah - I think that was a dickish comment and I wonder if he regretted it
the minute it was out.

4\. What did you expect them to say? 5. Dumb move but more a part of their
desperate need to defend against Facebook. It's hard to see this as anything
other an incompetent attempt to grow Buzz quickly.

Interestingly you missed out one of the stronger cases you could have made -
the nymwars - which I think were an attempt to push the public/private
boundary in their favour.

~~~
andybak
And here's the clincher.

Google cares deeply about your privacy. They desperately hope that the
concerns of people like yourself never become mainstream - or that they never
push their luck too far and the population at large becomes as cautious as
some of the more tech-savvy already are.

Because almost their entire business strategy depends on people trusting them
_just enough_.

You are a canary in the coal mine and I have no doubt that Google is very
interested in your feelings about privacy for just that reason.

------
alttab
I can see the benefit if everything was connected and it was thoughtless
integration the whole way through. I can't help but think about what it will
take to get your own personal Internet of Things hooked up. Interoperability
and a set of standards is pretty much the only way this vision will meet mass
consumer adoption. If that is the case its too early to tell if Nest will be
the winner, but it is clear they have a head start.

------
sumukh1
The demo video may have revealed a little bit about Nest's strategy here. The
video showed Whirlpool relying on the Nest thermostat to be the smart hub and
help control the energy usage.

Nest seems to be selling the user experience right now (Thermostat, API etc) -
but they are also positioning themselves to be at the center of the "smart
home"

------
runj__
Really cool seeing a kickstarted project (LIFX) working better with others
than Philips (Hue). It'll be really interesting seeing how LG and Samsung
does.

I built this a while back:
[http://comparesmartbulbs.com](http://comparesmartbulbs.com)

------
pirateking
I am getting a familiar sensation.

An unsettling feeling that Home Automation™ is _not_ actually about making the
home and its consumer electronics more integrated, easier to use, and
providing more free time and control to the individual. Rather, it is about
making things harder to use for the average consumer without machine or
professional assistance, requiring more hardware bundles and software services
to get the "total experience", and control and data slowly taken away from the
individual. Of course, this play for command and control is for the innocent
sake of predictable behavior that can be optimized (and the steady revenue and
growth that implies).

Self optimizing systems' predilection to predictability is quite predictable
(whether machine or human).

While I believe Nest and HomeKit will likely be successful due to these
optimizations they can potentially bring, I consciously will take the less
optimal route this time, and have fun DIY'ing my automation instead.

------
hoboon
I'm at least a little excited to see this. I've been reading about home
automation for decades in the likes of _Popular Science_ , and now, to
_perhaps_ see it really happen, finally. It makes me feel old, feel young.

------
plg
"your thermostat will start to heat up or cool down your home before you even
step out of bed."

umm in my house, in the winter, that would mean lying in bed awake for 30 min
waiting for my house to heat up

~~~
jaredmcateer
The nest learns how long it takes to heat your house so if you wake up at
roughly the same time every day it will start heating the house 30 minutes
before you wake up.

e.g., you always wake up at 6am on mon-fri and it takes 30 mins to heat the
house then it starts heating at 5:30am, but on saturday you sleep in until
9:30, and the sun has already raised your homes temp a few degrees and it only
takes 25 then it starts it at 9:05am.

------
novalis78
Reminds me of my MisterHouse
([http://misterhouse.sourceforge.net/](http://misterhouse.sourceforge.net/))
days...

------
jondiggsit
Anyone driving a G63 Benz surely has more than ONE zone of heating and cooling
in their house. Call me when Nest can control a real HVAC system.

------
kevinwang
What a name!

------
mantraxC
It'll be interesting to see how they plan to market this to people, because I
have to tell you... "your thermostat integrates with your car, washer and
jawbone bracelet" is damn confusing to me as a value proposition.

Yeah I see the potential, but even though I'm a programmer, I see a lot of
random shit put together, and no clear reason why I should go through the
effort of building a mental model around it in order to understand their
vision.

HomeKit is just a set of APIs right now, so we have yet to see if it has legs,
but it centers around a versatile device I always have with me - my
smartphone. It makes far more sense to make smartphones the hub, so focus it
around Android, not the thermostat...

The Google-Nest relationship is a bit toxic right now and people are all
scared that their data is going to leak the Google way. But we all know it's
going to happen, why delay the inevitable with this forced, confusing vision
of the home?

I've seen such integrations fail before. Apple had those weird wireless iTunes
/ iPod / Hi-Fi integrations in the early 2000s and it never caught on, because
it was damn confusing (and plugging the speaker audio cable in your iPod was
way simpler).

This stuff needs to seem simple and inevitable, so people say "but of course I
want that". And this is not it. It looks complex and arbitrary and their _own
ads videos say_ "people might say, why are we doing this". If you anticipate
people might say that, you've failed.

~~~
maxerickson
I expect they will market the dishwasher as saving a bit of money when you
have the thermostat. Similar with vehicles, it's a feature to check off when
you are at the dealer.

~~~
mantraxC
Those home automation products are marketed to the people who have the money
to buy such fancy home automation widgets.

Those people also typically want to "save the environment", but I doubt they
want to save it so much, that shaving a fiver off their power bill means they
get a _thermostat_ tell them when to wash their dishes and do their laundry.

Putting the dishes and clothes in and out is still a manual activity, so this
makes absolutely no sense to be scheduled by a thermostat, unless you have
waaaay too much free time on your hands.

~~~
maxerickson
Right. I'm saying that I expect the marketing to be at the point of sale of
the dishwasher and to be rather mild, so that it mostly targets people that
already own a compatible thermostat. Or in press releases and the like.

I think home automation is mostly composed of things that sound neat and
provide modest utility; Nest might pay itself off faster, but most buildings
would see more benefit from increased insulation. Something like programmable
lighting is fantastic, but it probably isn't going to save much money or
energy, and switches just aren't that burdensome. I'm glad there are people
trying to figure it all out, at some point the cost might get low enough where
"neat" is enough justification.

------
clockwerx
Meh. Already possible with systems like TheThingSystem or Ninjablocks - there
are rough edges, but there's a convergence of protocols and platforms taking
place in the open source space.

I predict that these sort of things may be slicker initially, but open
platforms focusing on one problem (ie: nodered or Huginn for rules, Owntracks
for presence, TheThingSystem or Ninjablocks for pushing a bunch of readings to
an MQTT hub from multiple protocols) will win out.

Right now I can drive both airconditioners through either a simple on/off
433mhz plug, or for the samsung, via wireless/direct commands. I can trigger
rules to disable when I leave the house. I can control my lights when motion
is sensed.

It's going to take a long time; but the open rules solutions already are
approaching competitiveness with IFFFT or Zapier; and the NodeJS based lower
level stuff is all focused on MQTT; so interoperability is highly likely.

~~~
weego
Things that 'just work' and things like ninjablocks don't exist in the same
product space.

