
Coding bootcamp grads boost their salaries by 40% on average - zwieback
http://qz.com/533427/coding-bootcamp-grads-boost-their-salaries-by-40-on-average-2/
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oldprog11
Is this bootcamp craze and the overall increased media coverage of 'coding' as
an easily learned unskilled trade making anyone else consider a career change?
I am pushing 40 and the diminishing earning potential, lack of respect, and
relentless ageism are really making me wish I'd done something else.

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morgante
I wouldn't worry about the effect of bootcamps and the surge of unqualified
programmers. All they do is create even more demand for senior developers to
manage them and clean up after their messes.

I know it's ridiculous for someone half your age to give advice, but if you're
worried about diminishing earning potential, ageism, and lack of respect,
consider consulting. Your experience is directly valued and the earning
ceiling is much much higher (if it exists at all). I know several 40+ year-old
developers who have had tremendous success working as consultants and getting
lots of respect from companies which otherwise exclusively employ
20-somethings.

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mgkimsal
You sort of nailed it, but most 40+ somethings need to get out of 'full time
employment' status in to consulting or some other more independent status to
keep the money and status going up. Not everyone, of course, but that tends to
be the trend. The 40+ folks I know who just want to go get a 9-5 coding job
seem to have a harder time landing one than the 20 somethings I know.

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bdcravens
I'd like to see such reports disclose whether or not the job numbers include
bootcamps that hire graduates to teach, which to me inaccurately skews the
numbers. Moreover, I'd like to see numbers on bootcamp graduates who are still
in the industry after 5 years.

~~~
coursereport
While we didn't report directly on this, 10 (out of >700) respondents did say
that they worked as a teaching assistant after graduation (Table 14).

We'll continue to conduct this outcomes survey (as well as report on market
sizing and growth) yearly; since the industry itself is 2-3 years old, we
don't have 5 year out data yet, but will soon-ish! -Liz (Co-founder, Course
Report)

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efnresident
I'm wondering how programmers who've made coding their life view newbies whose
only experience is from a bootcamp.

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joslin01
As a CTO, I strictly will not hire them. They have an incredibly basic outlook
unless they really do their homework and apply themselves. I'll take the
college grad with good fundamentals and decent coding skills over the bootcamp
grad with hardly any fundamentals and an overinflated confidence in knowing
how to code (thanks to the bootcamps' marketing BS).

I'm sure many of you think I'm coming across as harsh, but actually my first
company took on three apprentices with similar backgrounds and we paid the
cost. Never again is all I can say. Let other start ups and businesses throw
the dice, but I'll take a foreign (cheap) freelancer in the interim of looking
for a real onsite dev. There's a very good chance the foreign coder is more
skilled than any of these boot campers.

~~~
unethical_ban
I absolutely think you're being harsh. I am not saying you're wrong, but it
seems judgmental to deny bootcampers the opportunity to prove themselves.

~~~
joslin01
That's ok if you think that, but look at it from the perspective of time
management. I don't have all the time in the world to give everyone a chance.
I would love to, but I can't and so a simple rule like "No bootcampers" is an
effective filtering mechanism. With a little patience, I find better talent
rather than forcing myself to hunt for potential in anyone who applies.

To be honest, I find it presumptuous that I should be giving them a chance. I
went to school to get to where I needed to be. I had to pay off student loans.
I had to learn data structures, compilers, and all sorts of advanced things
that I don't use on an everyday basis (but no doubt help me). Who are you to
say I'm being harsh in denying the get-rich-schemers of the bootcamping world
for the diligent one-step-at-a-time college folk? And of course that's a
generalization.. so please, let's not say "but there's always exceptions."

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thatswrong0
That just sounds like entitlement to me.

"I had to go through a longer, more expensive program, and learned harder
things, therefore, why do they deserve to be given the chances I was?"

It _doesn 't matter_ what you had to go through - what matters is whether you
are capable to do the job.

I went through a 4-year program. I'm a programmer at a startup. I use very
little of any knowledge I acquired at school on a daily basis. Graphics?
Compilers? Advanced algorithms? Nope. I just need to solve relatively simple
problems and write code that's maintainable. The second part you don't learn
in school - in fact, you probably learn the opposite. The first part requires
a bit of a shift in thinking if you've never programmed before.. Hence
bootcamps. I'm not deluded into thinking I'm really that much more capable _at
doing my job_ than someone who spent less time learning not-so-practical
things. Obviously this depends on what you're doing - bootcampers can't just
go be machine learning experts. But web devs? Of course.

I've interviewed people from 4 year programs, and I've interviewed
bootcampers. My guesses on their respective resumes pretty much matched up
with how I graded them on their interviews. In both groups, you have the
people who get it, and the people who don't. Obviously, the percentage was
higher in the CS education group than the bootcamp group. But there are some
really good bootcampers. There's also lazy fucks (get-rich-schemers) in both
crowds. And I can tell the difference pretty easily in resumes.

It's fine that you have that heuristic - if you're running a tight ship and
can't afford the time, then that makes sense. But to justify it like that is a
bit silly.

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joslin01
Both of you guys are implying that my cause is entitlement when really it's
just part of the overall equation. I don't understand how judging character by
simple generalizations such as "Ok, you went to college, which means you got
into college, which means you must have studied, which means you must have
XYZ..." makes me a callous person out of nowhere and acting out of mere
entitlement. Your argument is fallacious because it sits on a false premise.

I do not think I got scammed by university (as the guy below me said), but
rather was gifted by it. Nor do I think that everyone has to go through the
same path as me. Did I ever say I would deny a programmer who has been working
in the industry for a few years with noticeable results despite a college
education? I'm pretty sure my top foreign dev right now has no college
education, but is self-taught.

I read my sentence again and you know I'm just being honest with you guys.
It's not about a "me vs them", it's about an overall character evaluation. I
look at myself as someone who I think generally went about things in the right
way. I'm sorry if this offends you, but it's how I make up my judgment calls
for who's worth looking into and who's not. What works for me might not work
for others. I think college did a lot for me. I like talking with people who
did go to college because I can typically talk at a lower level. I don't like
having to constantly mentor or teach topics I am skilled in, which is what I
would have to do with the guys who learned to code, but don't know much else.
Is it important? That's up to the person doing the hiring who is going to have
to deal with them on a day-to-day basis.

So, I need to worry a lot more about culture and productivity than I do some
perfect ideal of hiring. In fact, I think by placing culture first and hiring
who I think I would like the most, I do a big win for the company. In the
future, when we're huge, maybe not so. Then it will be up to the hiring
managers who actually have to work with them who they like.

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mywittyname
The salaries look really, really low. I'm wondering if these people with
bachelors degrees in CS are screwing themselves by paying additional for these
bootcamps. It looks like prospective companies are taking advantage of fact
that they know their candidate attended a bootcamp and is offering
artificially low salaries.

I wonder if they would have better results by applying for jobs directly,
instead of through the bootcamp recruiters.

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rco8786
65k is not crazy low for junior devs not in SF/NYC.

Also, I was under the impression that most of these bootcamps were for people
w/o a CS degree(or degree at all).

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qntty
_Java, the language used to build Android apps, commanded the lowest
compensation, at an average of $37,500._

Is this typical for Android development? I'm surprised there are very many
software jobs out there with such low pay.

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bluedino
It wouldn't surprise me. Android apps sell less, are pirated more, and attract
more 'free' users. Piracy is a problem with iOS apps as well, but there's far
less money coming in overall for Android developers.

It also doesn't help that Java is one of the most widely 'known' languages
since pretty much every CS major has been exposed to it for the last 15 years.

~~~
Karunamon
I'm immediately skeptical of any reports that put "piracy" anywhere in the top
n list of problems for a platform. The great majority of people use the play
store and buy their apps just like everyone else.

..Now whether it's a bogus perception, and the perception is causing people to
eye the platform with suspicion, is a legitimate question. Correcting
misinformation is hard.

~~~
mbrd
Are you sure about that?

[http://venturebeat.com/2015/01/05/monument-valley-
developer-...](http://venturebeat.com/2015/01/05/monument-valley-developer-
only-5-of-android-installs-were-paid-for/)

~~~
organian
There's been a lot of criticism for that comment and it really shouldn't be
taken without a large pinch of salt. For example, it didn't account for people
buying it once and installing on more than one device. That's a pretty big
oversight.

Much as I love ustwo, it was a stupid comment for that developer to make.

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matthiasb
I am surprised by the disparity of the salaries for different languages. $80k
for Python vs $37k for Java. How do you explain that?

~~~
Elizer0x0309
Supply and Demand.... of code snippets on stackoverflow (zing!) xP

