
The Manhattan Eruv - napolux
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/the-manhattan-eruv-new-york-new-york
======
lordnacho
There's one of these in North London as well. I know a fair number of Jewish
people there, some more practicing than others. And this is indeed why they
have the Eruv, it's to allow them to do some stuff that would otherwise be
forbidden.

Another one of these sidesteps was that you can't turn on the TV on the
sabbath, but there's nothing stopping you from visiting your friend who
happens to have the Spurs game on.

I'll be a little bemused if I die and it turns out there's an afterlife, and
in fact it was all a game of rules that you could play with like that.

~~~
davemel37
The only thing an eruv makes permissible is carrying an item from one domain
to another. (I.e. a personal house to the public street to a public
synagogue.) It's not so much a hack as a way of making the boundry of the two
separate domains part of the same domain. The same way, a row of houses can
also be a block or a group of streets can also be a neighborhood...there were
laws around moving things from one boundry to another, but all boundries are
fictions, so its not really doing anything thats tricking anybody...its not
really different than buying your neighbors house and putting a big fence
around both properties... I think this is actually why an eruv needs
permission from the city or mayor. Its actually a legal boundry in this
context...

The point about watching the game...thats not really permissible according to
many Rabbis, its just an excuse your friend made because its much worse to
take an action that completes an electrical circuit (similar to biblical
prohibition of lighting a fire) than to just look at something happening...but
there is clear guidance about what you are allowed to even read or look at on
Shabbos. This is just human nature...we all do the best we can with who we are
at any given moment...the Eruv though is a very different mechanism.

~~~
jaclaz
>... its much worse to take an action that completes an electrical circuit
(similar to biblical prohibition of lighting a fire) than to just look at
something happening...but there is clear guidance about what you are allowed
to even read or look at on Shabbos.

Knowing very little of the "rules" and on the way they are followed, I have
always been intrigued by this thingy here (Halachic switch):

[http://www.kosherswitch.com/live/](http://www.kosherswitch.com/live/)

~~~
antsar
Excerpt for the lazy:

> When you slide the on/off button, you’re moving an isolated piece of
> plastic. It is purely mechanical, and is not attached to anything electrical
> (electro-mechanically isolated). This is done at a time when you see a green
> Status Light, which provides 100% assurance that the relevant components
> within the switch are inactive. Subsequently, after a random interval, the
> device will activate and determine the position of the plastic by flashing
> an internal light pulse. The attached light fixture will be triggered only
> after the switch overcomes two failure probability processes – one prior to
> this light pulse and one after it. Halachically, your action is simply the
> movement of an isolated piece of plastic with no implications of causation.

------
ufo
There is a line of string near my house that I always wondered if it was an
eruv. So I did some research today and it turns out it is, and that it is
fairly recent too!

[http://www.kolelrio.com.br/index.php/eruv-
ipanema/](http://www.kolelrio.com.br/index.php/eruv-ipanema/)

[http://www.kolelrio.com.br/index.php/eruv-
copacabana](http://www.kolelrio.com.br/index.php/eruv-copacabana) /

Interestingly, it appears that mountains and buildings can also count as part
of the border, in addition to the string.

~~~
cik
Depends. Whilst the Talmud allows for the use of natural boundaries (lakes) in
an Eruv, buildings cannot be unless they're a courtyard (for example) that is
fenced in. This was simplified.

------
nimbius
Its worth mentioning that Manhattan, while massively larger than Los Angeles
population wise, is dwarfed by the LA Eruvin which extends to cover 100 square
miles. AFAIK it is the largest eruv in America.

[https://jewishjournal.com/news/los_angeles/community/6241/](https://jewishjournal.com/news/los_angeles/community/6241/)

Both the NYC and LA Eruv have realtime updates for status that are taken as
seriously as datacenter uptime. You can call virtually any Schul/temple in the
Eruv to know its immediate status from a rabbi.

[http://eruv.nyc/](http://eruv.nyc/)
[https://www.laeruv.com/](https://www.laeruv.com/)

devout jews dont so much as pick up a house key without knowing the Eruv
status, while some not-so-devout will intentionally avoid knowing its status
as this isnt technically considered breaking the mitzvos.

~~~
jrochkind1
> You can call virtually any Schul/temple in the Eruv to know its immediate
> status from a rabbi.

> ...devout jews dont so much as pick up a house key without knowing the Eruv
> status

Well, except, the only time you need to know the status of the eruv is on
shabbat (the sabbath), and if you are someone who needs to know the status of
the eruv on shabbat, you are also not going to use a phone or computer on
shabbat, so.

Perhaps you might check the status just before shabbat. But surely you are
exagerating at least somewhat. (I personally was aware of eruvim but was not
aware there was a way to check it's status based on monitors, and personally
have no idea how popular it is to do so. I just know nobody's making a phone
call to check eruv status before picking up their keys on a Saturday
morning!).

The NYC eruv status web page ([http://eruv.nyc/](http://eruv.nyc/)) currently
says "Last Checked: 1/2/2020", so I believe you were exagerating somewhat to
say "immediate" status as well. It does say "It features an announcement each
Friday about the status of the eruv" \-- so it sounds like, yup, check it
Friday afternoon before the sabbath starts, and that's the only time it's
updated too cause nobody has any reason to check it any other time, okeydoke.

~~~
meddlepal
I'm curious how they check the entire system?

~~~
jrochkind1
> Every Thursday before dawn, a rabbi drives the perimeter, checking to see if
> wind or a fallen branch has broken the line. There are usually a few breaks,
> so a construction company is called and the rabbi gets in a cherry picker
> with fishing line in hand to repair the eruv. That's the part that costs so
> much.

[https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-
enci...](https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-encircles-
manhattan-protecting-sanctity-of-sabbath)

------
cainxinth
I'm not religious, but I hate the idea of an Eruv. Who do you think you're
fooling? God, apparently. If he or she does exist, do you think they are going
to fall for your little string ploy?

~~~
seemslegit
It's been long accepted that a sufficient rabbinical consensus can out-lawyer
God itself, it's like the SCOTUS mandate to decide what the wording of the
constitution really means or the Catholic papal infallibility doctrine - can't
really have a law system without that sort of thing, religious or secular.

~~~
haivri
Both of the above comments unfortunately reflect a deep misunderstanding of
Jewish way of life. What is generally thought of as God is not what Jews refer
to as God, and with time and study, the difference between the two can be
properly understood. Also, there's no fooling going on. If you want to study
the laws of Eruvim, here is a good resource:
[https://www.amazon.com/comprehensive-review-Eruvin-
practical...](https://www.amazon.com/comprehensive-review-Eruvin-practical-
applications/dp/1600912486)

~~~
phonon
Ta Shma

"In frustration, Rabbi Eliezer finally cries out, "If the halakha is in
accordance with my opinion, Heaven will prove it." From Heaven a voice is
heard, saying, "Why are you differing with Rabbi Eliezer, as the halakha is in
accordance with his opinion in every place that he expresses an opinion?"
Rabbi Joshua responds, "It [the Torah] is not in heaven" (Deuteronomy 30:12).
He responds in this way because the Torah, which was given by God to mankind
at Sinai, specifically instructs those who follow it that they are to look to
the received Torah as their source and guide. The Torah says, "It is not in
heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for
us so that we may hear it and observe it?' Neither is it beyond the sea, that
you should say, 'Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get
it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?' No, the word is very near to
you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe" (Deuteronomy
30:12-14).

Rabbi Joshua's response then expresses the view that the work of law is a work
of human activity, and that the Torah itself supports this legal theory. The
Torah is not a document of mystery which must have its innate meaning revealed
by a minority, but it is instead a document from which law must be created
through the human activity of debate and consensus. Rabbinic literature was
capable of recognizing differing opinions as having a degree of legitimacy
(Yer. Ber. 3b), yet the community remains united and the ruling which is
ultimately followed comes through proper jurisprudence. As such, Rabbi
Eliezer's miraculous appeals represent a differing legal theory and were
outside of proper jurisprudence which meant that they would not be followed.
Instead the Jewish community followed the ruling of the majority in this issue
and in others. The Talmud asks how God responded to this incident. We are told
that upon hearing Rabbi Joshua's response, God smiled and stated, "My children
have triumphed over Me; My children have triumphed over Me.""

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai)

------
napolux
An eruv is a symbolic boundary that allows observant Jews to carry out a range
of ordinary activities otherwise forbidden on the Shabbat. There are eruvin in
more than 30 states in the U.S., but Manhattan’s is one of the longest in the
world. A nearly invisible wire runs from 126th Street in Harlem, down to
Battery Park and back up to 111th along the East River. The line has been in
place, in some form or another, for just over a century.

It has also an official website where people can check if the eruv is up or
down: [http://eruv.nyc/](http://eruv.nyc/)

~~~
EGreg
I am not an orthodox Jew but I do like to investigate the truth of things in
religions.

I was always wondering how the Manhattan eruv was a “valid” one by orthodox
Judaism since a street like Broadway — or really any street — is a dirshus
haRabbim which can hold over 600,000 people at once (and perhaps does once a
year, also counting the subway).

An eruv originally was supposed to unite “private” domains into one super-
domain. The tradition holds that it was instituted by King Solomon himself, to
unite Jews who otherwise would not be able to carry things to their neighbors.

So I checked — and it turns out that the rabbinate which oversees it is
actually not orthodox, but reconstructionist or something. It is based on
Monsey, which is home to many orthodox Jews, so hearing that the eruv is
overseen by Monsey sounds like it’s orthodox.

I don’t know any orthodox Jews who use it. And eruvin are basically used by
orthodox Jews.

(Fun fact: it doesn’t go through Moshe Feinstein’s old neighborhood, Chelsea,
where I used to live, because he opposed it. Another rabbi who opposed any
eruvin — even kosher ones — was Menachem Shneerson of Chabad. So in crown
heights there is an “eruv dispute” between the orthodox, who use it when they
eg walk strollers with their children on Shabbat, and the ultra-orthodox, who
refuse to use it and post signs that it’s not to be used:
[https://forward.com/news/345405/brooklyn-eruv-feud-
spreads-t...](https://forward.com/news/345405/brooklyn-eruv-feud-spreads-to-
park-slope-second-ritual-boundary-vandalized/) ).

I think this is an interesting topic for Hacker News because the people here
often investigate rules and reasons for them, and this whole topic — even the
Talmud eruv rules themselves — is about rules and hacking in a way.

~~~
phonon
1\. Yes, there are various opinions on this topic. See

[http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/eruvp3a.htm](http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/eruvp3a.htm)

[https://www.jewishpress.com/judaism/halacha-
hashkafa/carryin...](https://www.jewishpress.com/judaism/halacha-
hashkafa/carrying-eruvin-and-manhattan/2013/05/22/) and

[https://www.koltorah.org/halachah/the-laws-of-creating-an-
er...](https://www.koltorah.org/halachah/the-laws-of-creating-an-eruv-part-
iii-by-rabbi-howard-jachter) for example.

(It's reshus or reshut btw, not dirshus )

2\. This is a good background for its institution.

[http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%203%20Buchman.pdf](http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%203%20Buchman.pdf)

3\. It's overseen by an Orthodox group. (It's used by Orthodox Jews, so not
sure why you would expect otherwise).

[https://www.jewishcenter.org/manhattan-
eruv.html](https://www.jewishcenter.org/manhattan-eruv.html)

[http://eruv.nyc/#organizations](http://eruv.nyc/#organizations)

[https://mechonlhoyroa.com/](https://mechonlhoyroa.com/)

[http://www.rabbimintz.com/](http://www.rabbimintz.com/)

------
JasonFruit
Jewish law is an amazing rabbi(t) hole that you can go as deeply down as you
wish. Look at the Shabbat laws about pickling, and what is and is not
forbidden under them. It's such a fascinating study that you could dig deeper
and deeper into it for a lifetime and ignore the question of what, if
anything, you believe about the God at its root. Between this feature and the
obstacles it places before any closeness with non-observant people, it
displays the rabbis' brilliance and foresight.

------
davemel37
The Daily Show did a hilarious bit on Eruv in the Hamptons.
[http://www.cc.com/video-clips/1jsrl7/the-daily-show-with-
jon...](http://www.cc.com/video-clips/1jsrl7/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-
the-thin-jew-line)

------
Animats
The whole concept is kind of strange. If there's a god, and they care about
their rules, an eruv is cheating your god. You were supposed to stay home on
the holy day, but someone found a cheat code. If there isn't a god, or they
don't care about this stuff, it's pointless.

This is religious checkboxing. You check off all the boxes, and you're good.
Islam is very much like that. Ultra-orthodox Judaism is close. Catholicism is
more about intent, leading to a system based on being made to feel guilty.

Enough theology for today.

~~~
monkeynotes
Sharia law prohibits interest on loans. As such there are a bunch of loopholes
to allow Muslims to have an economic stake in the game:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking_and_finance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking_and_finance)

I believe until recent history Christianity also prohibited loans and debt, or
at least usury debt.

------
kevstev
My big takeaway from this is that religions can be quite bizarre. You have
this omnipotent god with all these crazy rules that are required but will be
totally ok if you find a loophole... maybe it's just people that are strange?

~~~
seemslegit
basically Rabbis as early as 1700 years ago are on record as implying: "off-
the-record, God is an entirely fictional entity, we get it, we really do, but
it's a useful fictional entity to ground the foundations of morals, law and
society (and our own status as its meritocratic authority) in, and in order
for it to work we must treat it as real - no breaking kayfabe on this even to
ourselves and even if this means adhering to the weirder laws attributed to
this God from ancient times, at least until we figure a credible way to
interpret them away"

~~~
sam_goody
"...are on record as implying" [citation needed].

You obviously have no idea how much the Rabbis (or even the layman Orthodox)
believe this stuff.

It makes no sense that the people who gave up their lives rather than give in
on minutiae didn't believe in G-d.

Without sources, your claim should be dismissed as projection or wishful
thinking.

~~~
seemslegit
> "...are on record as implying" [citation needed].

Citation brought bellow in this thread, whether or not it implies what I
believe it implies is probably not an argument to be had here.

> You obviously have no idea how much the Rabbis (or even the layman Orthodox)
> believe this stuff.

You obviously have no idea how different the notion of G-d as taught by some
Rabbis is from the one that is presented to the layman Orthodox. For that
matter the way that the Pope thinks of G-d today is not the same that the
layman Christian does. And I don't believe that all of them believe in G-d
allegorically but I think the foundational ones mentioned in the Talmud did,
the Rambam (Maimonides) too probably.

> It makes no sense that the people who gave up their lives rather than give
> in on minutiae didn't believe in G-d.

It makes the same amount of sense for a literal belief as it does for an
allegorical one, the 'minutiae' is a symbol for the underlying principle of
self-determination.

> Without sources, your claim should be dismissed as projection or wishful
> thinking.

Precisely.

------
the_mitsuhiko
Vienna has one as well. You can monitor if it's functional online:
[http://eruv.at/](http://eruv.at/) — it's being checked every week.

~~~
supahfly_remix
How do they check its integrity? By physically walking around? Or
electronically by passing a current through it?

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
People walk around it. A lot of the eruv are natural walls.

------
kens
Some appliances have a "Sabbath" feature to get around restrictions of what
Jewish law allows on the Sabbath. For instance, instead of turning on an oven,
you put it into Sabbath mode. Then, when you press BAKE and enter the
temperature, it doesn't display the temperature or give any response. After a
random delay of up to a minute, the oven turns on. Since you didn't turn the
oven on directly, it's okay to use it.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
This and the eruv all comes across to me as blatant cheating for convenience.

Pressing Bake turns the oven on after a random delay, if you didn't press Bake
the oven wouldn't turn on at all. Ergo you turned the oven on, no matter how
much you lawyer speak your way around it.

Just reinforces how ludicrous the meaningless rules are, that surround all
religions.

~~~
davemel37
You would be violating Sabbath law if you press any buttons on the oven
especially Bake, even with a timer...unless you set the timer before sabbath
starts. Sabbath mode just turns off automated features when you open or close
the oven or fridge door.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
In fairness, that does put a rather different complexion on it, as OP didn't
mention it needing to be done the preceding day. _" After a random delay of up
to a minute, the oven turns on."_ As described it merely gets you a few random
seconds pause after pushing the button and setting temp, thus screams of
"cheat mode", which seems at odds with your description. Setting a timer to
come on tomorrow at roughly 3pm doesn't feel like it's quite so blatantly
breaking the spirit of a rule for the day, as press then maybe you wait 1s,
maybe 59s. Whether a next day timer is also bending the rule is a much finer
judgement...

So now I'm not sure how to interpret.

~~~
davemel37
The OP is mistaken (in my view) about Sabbath mode and its function. The
common scenarios are a fridge or oven light that turns on when you open the
door. In those cases, opening the door would be no different than flipping the
switch to complete a circuit that turns on a light. So, sabbath mode disables
that feature and allows you to open the door without turning on a light.
Unscrewing the lightbulb or using tape to hold down the switch on the
doorframe is the other way to do this. Setting a timer during sabbath, for
another time on sabbath would be the same thing as just turning it on
directly.

As difficult as it may seem to many people, the "hacks" are grounded in sound
but nuanced reasoning...the cases that make no sense logically are typically
mistaken application...the talmud is literally rabbis disproving these ideas
based on logic all the time.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
Which was pretty much my starting point from OP's description. It makes sense
relating to the sabbath rule as you describe here.

~~~
freedrock87
The OP is actually correct on function and its name "Sabbath Mode".

The name is a misnomer because the baking function can only be used on Jewish
holidays (Passover, Sukkot) when baking/cooking is permitted (okhel nefesh)
whereas on Sabbath cooking is forbidden.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_mode](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_mode)

~~~
davemel37
This says exactly what I wrote just discusses other features...in essence it
turns off automatic features.

------
siculars
For those interested you may consult the section Eruvin in The Sefer Zemanim,
The Book of Times. Enjoy ;)

[https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/935286/jewish...](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/935286/jewish/Eruvin.htm)

------
syncsynchalt
If you're living in Denver, next time you're in the DTC on Temple Drive (Union
Ave) look up and you'll see the fishing line running over the road between two
light poles. This line forms one of four eruvin in Denver.
[http://denvereruv.com/denver-eruv-map](http://denvereruv.com/denver-eruv-map)

------
KoftaBob
How is it legal for them to put something like this on public property all
over the city? Do they have permits for this?

~~~
CydeWeys
Wait till you see the millions of private cars strewn everywhere on public
property, almost entirely for free! It utterly dwarfs the eruv.

~~~
throwaway777555
False equivalence. Cars are not religious.

~~~
CydeWeys
Plenty of cars do have religious symbols on or in them, e.g. crosses dangling
from rearview mirrors, and that's more noticeable to a pedestrian than the
eruv.

It's freedom _of_ religion, not freedom _from_ religion.

------
throwaway777555
You can also see a list of Eruvin on Wikipedia. Check out the References
sections to see the actual maps
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_with_eruvin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_with_eruvin)

------
psim1
Related:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator)

~~~
sb057
The same concept applied to any electrical outlet:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdbkvJznmwU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdbkvJznmwU)

------
i_am_nomad
How is this not a display of religious symbols on public property? I assume
because the city government doesn't maintain it and it doesn't impede city
works?

~~~
CydeWeys
There are lots of religious symbols on public property. Hundreds of thousands
of them in Arlington Cemetery alone.

Plus, this is literally just a filament. If you didn't specifically go looking
for it you'd never notice it.

------
bbulkow
apparently there is an eruv in palo alto.

[https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2007/06/19/palo-alto-
eru...](https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2007/06/19/palo-alto-eruv-approved
----after-eight-years)

------
davemel37
[https://www.thevillager.com/2006/11/orthodox-jews-debate-
l-e...](https://www.thevillager.com/2006/11/orthodox-jews-debate-l-e-s-
sabbath-zone/)

There is debate in the religious community about this eruv and others in
Manhattan.

