
Canada is North America’s up-and-coming startup center - miraj
https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/20/canada-is-north-americas-up-and-coming-startup-center/
======
hughes
This article doesn't mention one of the major reasons for talent _leaving_
Canada: if you work there, you need to stomach a 50% pay cut in average
salaries vs the US. This is true pretty much across the board regardless of
tech niche on the 2017 Stack Overflow Developer Survey[1]:

Machine learning specialist: US 108k, Canada 53k (49%)

Embedded applications/devices developer: US 100k, Canada 53k (53%)

Systems administrator: US 90k, Canda 49k (55%)

Doubling your salary by moving south across the border is a _very_ tempting
option, especially considering that NAFTA makes it extremely easy to do so. No
need to wait for an H1-B, just show up at the border with job offer &
credentials in hand, assuming you've graduated college. TN visas are instant
and infinitely renewable.

[1] [https://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017#work-
salaries...](https://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017#work-salaries-by-
geography)

~~~
endorphone
While I do have a grievance with a much lower pay ceiling across Canada, those
numbers are ridiculously low even if in US dollars as I assume they are. I
don't put much stock in the StackOverflow survey.

And I'm not trying to be argumentative, but your take on TN visas is extremely
simplified. For instance software developers aren't actually allowed to have a
TN visa, and instead you have to say that you're a "system analyst". Only
they've actually started strictly demanding proof that you're an analyst and
not a programmer, etc. Add that _any single border crossing_ can lead to a
revocation of your TN visa.

No thanks.

EDIT: Before more people reply with general comments, I am specifically
talking about the salary claims for "ML Specialist" and embedded developers.
Those numbers -- and I happen to have a good amount of reason to know this --
are ludicrously low. But yes, if you're a web developer, a generalist, etc,
pay will be terrible in much of Canada, just as it's terrible in much of the
US.

~~~
mikestew
_those numbers are ridiculously low even if in US dollars as I assume they
are. I don 't put much stock in the StackOverflow survey._

Then put stock in a the words of a guy who has actually looked for employment
in Canada, and after the election of Trump is very incentivized to take a
positive view on moving to Canada: as far as I can tell from the salaries
posted, I'd take about a 50% pay cut, and I wouldn't be able to afford a house
(at least not in Vancouver). Drop me in, say, Kamloops for $65K/year and maybe
I'd do it. But there are few, if any, software jobs in Kamloops, or Kelowna,
or much anywhere else outside Vancouver.

~~~
tostitos1979
If salaries and housing prices in Canada were at all reasonable, I know many
fellow Canadians would move back from the Bay area in an instant. Toronto is
the other major tech center which is stupidly priced (hopefully the new govt
measures slow things down). If you can speak french, consider Montreal.

~~~
totony
Be mindful that there is (mostly) terrible weather everywhere in Canada except
in Ontario/South BC(Vancouver)

~~~
rpeden
Depends on your definition of terrible, I suppose. I never feel more alive
than when I go for a walk on a crisp, sunny -20 degree morning. I used to get
mornings like that quite often in Ottawa, and I've missed them the past couple
of years in Toronto.

------
guyzero
It makes me feel proud that Canada has been North America’s up-and-coming
startup center since I graduated from Waterloo over 20 years ago. That's a
solid, consistent track record of almost being there.

~~~
adventured
There has been a story equivalent to that on the front page every few weeks
for the last five years that I've been reading HN.

I attribute it to some kind of watch-goliath-fall fantasy. That has been
amplified dramatically since Trump got elected. Since then, a couple dozen
countries are now supposedly candidates to swipe a lot of tech talent away
from the US. Nothing will come of it; even more high-skilled talent will
actually make it to the US thanks to reforming the H-1B back to what it was
supposed to be. Inbound, substantial corporate tax cuts will increase the
power of the magnet luring start-ups to US shores.

~~~
acchow
Cities that are commonly touted as the "next silicon valley":

\- Berlin

\- Toronto-Waterloo

\- London

\- Vancouver

\- Shenzhen

\- Chicago

~~~
jmknoll
Not OP, but some thoughts on these cities:

Berlin - startup capital of Europe. Strong education system, low cost of
living, dev salaries are held down by immigration from, and proximity to,
Eastern Europe. Possible synergy with German automotive and manufacturing
industries.

Shenzhen: global manufacturing hub, access to Chinese-speaking World. Major
support from Chinese government. Possible synergy with supply chain,
manufacturing, and logistics.

London: English speaking, global financial capital. Drawbacks include
immigration questions and small population.

Toronto seems to be based largely on proximity to the US with a better
healthcare and immigration system, plus the university of Waterloo.

Not sure what the obvious rationale would be for Vancouver or Chicago.

~~~
anentropic
small population?

~~~
JBReefer
It has a smaller metro population than Shenzen, LA, etc. It's a big city, but
a small gigacity.

------
nickler
The startup scene here in Vancouver is scrappy but really shouldn't be
compared to SV in any way, it's just not a fair comparison.

We are, however, woefully under-represented with experienced seed stage
investors, as the author states. The few that are here have abandoned seed and
pre seed and are exclusively VC, mid to late round investors. Can't blame
them, either, as the wins are still few and far between.

Vancity seems to excel at bridging H1B visas for large firms hoping to cycle
them into the US once they've cleared. Candidates get here easier and quicker.

We're also a cost effective labour farm, and our devs are happy for the work
to help pay for their ridiculous mortgages.

Great city to live in, worst city to fundraise, good place to launch and
validate, and really nice for avoiding the noise.

We'll see a unicorn or two in the coming years. They'll just go a much
different path than the typical SV startup.

~~~
nacho2sweet
The word is out in the last few years though with any young developer googling
Vancouver. Low pay, high cost of living not worth it. Even the founder of
Hootsuite wrote an op-ed and the situation is only worse since the 2 years ago
he wrote that. Something that pays 125,000USD in SF pays like 78,000CAD here.
Condo's are $1000/sqft still.

~~~
mistermann
> Condo's are $1000/sqft still.

In the suburbs maybe.

~~~
drspacemonkey
Presales downtown are at $2k/sqft.

~~~
mistermann
Sometimes I fantasize about winning the lottery and go browse condos to see
what I could buy.....$5M downtown gets you something completely unimpressive,
it's really hard to fathom.

------
rdtsc
Rule of "Silicone Valleys" and "Startup Centers": if it is announced in a
press release that a place is becoming one of those things, chances are they
won't.

A lot of these press releases come from top down incentives, tax cuts, special
programs and such that. The problem is they fail to capture all the reasons
and causes a startup center is a startup center.

One thing might help is to start war for example and have the Canadian defense
ministry invest heavily in war technologies and hand out cash to develop
radars :-) or other such non-obvious things.

~~~
arcticbull
So we use our armies to keep peace and to defend ourselves, not to attack. The
NRC -- National Research Council -- works with the private sector to
productize promising new technologies without invading ^_^

------
ilugaslifg
Vancouver: where senior developers would be genuinely lucky to top out at
$90k, a single bedroom on a transit line is $800k, a teardown in a distant
suburb is $1.5M, and bottom shelf cheese costs $40/lb.

I don't think a startup scene in a city is ever going to really blow up when
sticking around in that city is giving up the possibility of building any kind
of future for yourself.

Everybody I know who's worth half a damn moved to Seattle.

\----

Toronto: maybe.

Montreal: sure.

The prairies: "Is Fargo the next up-and-coming startup center?"

~~~
rrdharan
I grew up in Toronto and have visited Montreal numerous times but only as a
tourist.

At any rate I'm very skeptical of the Montreal claims. It is a wonderful place
to visit, but all of my Canadian non-native French speaking friends eventually
found that their career opportunities were limited and the culture was simply
too hostile to non-Quebecois and so they relocated away.

------
huangc10
I just want to give my POV on all of this as I have lived in both Vancouver,
Toronto, and now in Mountain View.

Everything pointed out in the comments about low pay, and high cost of living
in Vancouver is true. However, let's look of it from another angle. If you
were a young college grad with options, wouldn't you want to go to sunny
California? Not only is it an adventure, there's better night life, better
sports teams, the glory of the valley, and on top of that, higher pay. It's
really a no brainer for some.

Toronto is definitely a better environment and I can see it blossoming more
and more. I know a couple of Founders there and they love it. I would go there
myself in the future, except for family ties in the west coast.

Just my 2 cents.

~~~
deanCommie
I've also been to Mountain View. As a young college grad I would like to live
in a CITY, not a sprawling suburban nightmare where half of my day would be
stuck in traffic.

The higher pay is the ONLY reason to move to Silicon Valley. It has nothing on
Vancouver or Toronto in terms of night life, food, or fun for a college-
educated professional.

~~~
ng12
So why not NYC? More of a city and better wages for devs than either Vancouver
or Toronto.

~~~
deanCommie
Agreed. NYC is the best choice.

------
startupdiscuss
What bothers me about these articles is that they lay out all these reasons
for why a place will be great, or is a great place to start a company, but
then why -- in spite of these assets -- does that place not produce like
Silicon Valley?

I am not saying Toronto is not a great city to live and work and start a
business.

But if it has all these things going for it, why isn't it producing startup
value per capita like SV? Doesn't this show that these things are not enough
for a startup scene? Or, to put it another way, having startups is not
essential for a great city.

~~~
52-6F-62
I think there are a number of factors here, and I don't think social factors
should be ruled out.

There are a number of startups here, but there are also many community/social
innovation hubs[1] and organizations that draw in a lot of people who come
here to start something up.

The number of jobs I have seen posted for the "Next Flipp!" the "Next Uber!!!"
is outstanding. How many flyer-aggregate apps do people really need? There's
an odd lack of creative capital in business for a city that prides itself on
the arts.

I think some of that is due to social pressures. Many in the arts here, at
least the people who would need the money, seem to think earning any real
money is evil unless you earned your $10.50 an hour working on the line in a
diner kitchen. As if a financially successful business is inherently a corrupt
business.

Other organizations like Enterprise Toronto[2] seem like great ideas to
bolster people in theory, but (speaking only from my experience) it seems to
attract people who want to only run their quaint one-man dev-designer gig with
enough money to do what they want, and all the free time to do it. Sounds kind
of nice, but the city is flooded with people who have the same dream. (Maybe
there's more space for it these days, and maybe I should get in on it).

Your last paragraph raises very good questions, and the answers are probably
too many: the best talent goes to California/New York/Boston(/Waterloo?), or
otherwise the best talent here doesn't get into business but stays in
academics. Some of the highest capital here seems to be made through selling
to American companies.[3] Then of course the social factors I mentioned: it
might just be that the dream is a little different for a lot of people who
come here. They didn't necessarily come to strike it big with a company, but
more for the culture of the place. Like you put it: having startups is not
essential for a great city.

[1] [https://socialinnovation.org/](https://socialinnovation.org/) [2]
[http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=0323...](http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=032354ae91cda510VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD)
[3] [https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-is-
canadian-m...](https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-is-canadian-
media-ignoring-the-100m-sale-of-a-toronto-startup-bitstrips-snapchat-bitmoji)

edit: I should add the obligatory MaRS is an awesome resource comment.
[https://www.marsdd.com/](https://www.marsdd.com/)

~~~
tensor
Actually, MaRS has been not at all useful in my experience. Additionally,
Toronto is home to a lot of great startups, though many are a bit smaller than
the giants, but some are giants. Shopify and 500px are good examples. Smaller
examples are AgileBits who make 1password and PagerDuty. There are more too,
in enterprise, legal, you won't have heard of these as the aren't consumer
facing.

~~~
52-6F-62
MaRS seems to be much bigger in science and medical startups, and unless you
look for what they've been supporting it's like you mentioned most won't have
heard of them because they aren't consumer facing. I think I mentioned
elsewhere -- Shopify and 500px (I've applied there and failed lol) are some of
the unicorns here. Good companies with good products and good talent. I'll
have to check out AgileBits.

I work for a company that sometimes deals with other smaller startups but they
can be fleeting in lifespan.

I would love to find something viable to join in on vs. the enterprise
environment I find myself in now. Though I honestly haven't had my ear to the
ground as much lately.

------
canistr
As far as Toronto is concerned, nobody grows to the size of a multi-national
juggernaut. Everyone takes the buyout/merger/acquisition way before that ever
happens. It's often been said, what major multi-national corporation has their
headquarters here? Reuters is the only one and they are technically
headquartered in New York now.

The companies that get that far will typically come out of other places where
they aren't stifled by the conservative VCs/angels eager for an exit like they
are in Toronto.

~~~
thesmallestcat
Does TD count?

~~~
canistr
No, I don't think any of the big Canadian banks would or should count.

------
Nanite
Mind you this is by the same author who wrote : "The Netherlands: A Look At
The World’s High-Tech Startup Capital" and half a dozen similar pieces. Often
cringeworthy PR fluff written in tourist brochure style.

------
jtraffic
I saw a poster in my business school building (in the midwest) about "Silicon
Plains." Honestly, it'd be so cool if there really were more tech hubs, but
the degree of wishful thinking can be almost painful.

I'm _not_ suggesting by this that Vancouver isn't an up-and-coming startup
center. Just commenting on the extreme desire I see all around to be like SV.

------
aanm1988
This article reads like someone who doesn't give 2 shits about Canada decided
to crack open wikipedia.

> but many countries of similar stature — G7 nations, for example — dismiss
> the Great White North as nothing more than America’s top hat

Canada is one of the G7 nations. Or did you mean the other 6 don't care about
Canada?

Can you please just not bother writing about my country anymore.

------
flavoie
" Similarly, sub-zero temperatures scare people to warmer areas, leading to a
brain drain and serious demand for startup-orientated marketers."

Living in one of the cities, sub-zero might have an impact but I don't think
it's the brain drain main reason. For aspiring founder, I think it's more
related to insufficient founding. For engineers, I think the very low salaries
is more to blame. Even if cost of living is a bit lower, the difference makes
no sense at all.

~~~
kspaans
It's hard to do a proper comparison of costs unless you're young and single.
Consider medical costs (usually, but not always covered by your US employer),
and family-related costs (school for kids is the biggest I can think of:
private schools and private universities being more expensive in the US).

~~~
canistr
What's sad is that Canada has a very good public school system all the way
from Kindergarten to University. Combined with the lower costs (i.e. free K-12
for these good schools unlike Americans sending kids to private schools) and
reduced stress on children due to lack of a standardized university entrance
exam, Canada SHOULD be a place where people want to have families.

That being said, I'm a product of the public schooling system in
Scarborough/Markham. Which could possibly have the best free public schools in
North America.

~~~
xbeta
Same here ! I think we might be from the same school. I grew up my highschool
in Scarborough.

~~~
tostitos1979
Markham yes .. but Scarborough having the best schools?? Which one? George S
Henry in North York was pretty awesome.

~~~
xbeta
Agincourt, oldest :-)

I know few Campbell guys

~~~
Tnon
Agincourt grad here.

------
gricardo99
I'm surprised to see how little funding/support there is specifically from
Alberta[1], given the oil/gas wealth and the general awareness (going back
decades) that they need to diversify their economy.

1 - [https://www.mentorworks.ca/what-we-offer/government-
funding/](https://www.mentorworks.ca/what-we-offer/government-funding/)

~~~
microcolonel
Alberta used to be the best province regarding the behaviour of government,
and this was one of the great things. The provincial taxes are fairly low, and
until the most recent regime change none of the cities had municipal debt.

I would take lower taxes over a grant most days.

~~~
josho
How do taxes play a role for a startup that defers profit for growth? Taxes
won't be a factor until you've succeeded.

Or is it that your experience with grants are that negative that you value
them so poorly?

~~~
microcolonel
Grants are dangerous for society, because they encourage private businesses to
cooperate with current-term politics, and they take money out of the market.
Last year, our federal government gave nearly $400mm to one company expecting
the creation of just 1300 jobs. There are federal tax incentives for any
company that does essentially anything novel (SRED) and that somewhat works,
since acceptance is only conditional on meeting the criteria. Grants are
preferential.

------
Deinumite
This article looks like a fluff piece that is pretty thin on actual research.

They talk about how great MaRS is and how much revenue it has generated... but
in reality MaRS has been an issue and has had hundreds of millions in bailout
money.

------
moojah
This sounds like the typical Silicon-everywhere story. Any big developed
country now has a "start up scene", and rightly so. Otherwise they wouldn't be
developed. Relatively speaking, all of them are up and coming, as they're all
catching up with the original silicon valley.

The only notable and interesting stories are when the articles compare
absolute investment amounts, tech GDP growth, IPOs, open tech jobs or other
real measurable comparisons. This seems to be lacking any of these deeper
comparison to actually non-trivially show how this area is really the "up-and-
coming startup center" of North America.

------
ronilan
Favorite quote:

 _Vancouver is found in British Columbia (BC), amongst the Rocky Mountains on
Canada’s west coast._

Yah. Excellent.

~~~
ghaff
To be fair, there are mountains and they're pretty rocky :-)

~~~
ronilan
Totally fair.

And speaking of rocks, the hike up the Yosemite Half Dome, just an hour by car
from downtown Vancouver is really nice.

[https://www.google.ca/search?tbm=isch&q=stawamus+chief](https://www.google.ca/search?tbm=isch&q=stawamus+chief)

------
bobosha
I speak as a founder of an AI company in Vancouver Canada and ran it there for
~1 year - we relocated to US for fundraising and that's another story - but
here is my sense for salaries:

* AI/ML Scientists (UBC, SFU) , Typically MS/PhD: C$85K-125K

* Web developers: ranges from 60K (mediocre) to 110K (very good), the exceptional are nearly impossible to find.

* Database/Backend : C$80K-100K for the good to very good talent.

I would expect Toronto to have similar salary ranges, Waterloo and Montreal
might be a bit lower.

~~~
hashbig
Montreal is way lower. But then again rent here is significantly less than
Vancouver/Toronto.

------
sheepmullet
SV used to be a cheap place to live and this helped the startup scene grow
into what it is today. Now it's (more or less) self sustaining.

It enabled a lot of risk taking.

I don't think you could call any major Canadian city cheap.

So how does it build up an ecosystem? Maybe if all the VCs etc get chased out
of the US?

------
microcolonel
Seems like Conrad is doing the equivalent of one of those _$YOUR_CITY voted
best place to live 2017_ articles, but instead for entire countries, and
specifically for startups.

Not saying he's necessarily wrong about any of this though, I wouldn't know.

[https://techcrunch.com/contributor/conrad-
egusa/](https://techcrunch.com/contributor/conrad-egusa/)

~~~
evgen
An obscure bylaw in the TechCrunch corporate charter mandates them to publish
a 'why <some place that will never be the next Silicon Valley> is the next
Silicon Valley' article every two months. Rumor has it that in the bottom desk
of the editor's drawer is a jar of used blood from the last time vampire Thiel
had a hemocyte change and a dart has its tip wetted with this foul ichor
before being thrown across the room at a large map. Whoever does not turn away
from viewing the ritual fast enough is assigned the story.

------
jostmey
So basically because the cost of living in San Francisco is scary, everyone is
looking for the next start-up center and assuming it will be somewhere outside
the United States. But there are many other cheap places to live in the US,
much cheaper than Canada. I guess the current political climate in the US
could be a driving factor.

------
johncop
There is no huge difference in tech jobs salaries between US and Canada. You
can easliy spot it on the salary map:
[https://jobsquery.it/map;bounds=%7B%22south%22%3A46.23432130...](https://jobsquery.it/map;bounds=%7B%22south%22%3A46.234321302666864%2C%22west%22%3A-129.74610045552254%2C%22north%22%3A56.09145008422483%2C%22east%22%3A-107.77344420552254%7D)

But there is a significant difference in the number of job offers:

USA: ~5000
[https://jobsquery.it/jobs;page=1;tags=;sortBy=PUBLISHED_AT_D...](https://jobsquery.it/jobs;page=1;tags=;sortBy=PUBLISHED_AT_DESC;query=;location=USA)

VS

CANADA: ~100
[https://jobsquery.it/jobs;page=1;tags=;sortBy=PUBLISHED_AT_D...](https://jobsquery.it/jobs;page=1;tags=;sortBy=PUBLISHED_AT_DESC;query=;location=Canada)

------
jensv
Canada is a better place to live but due to the low population, culture (less
consumerism/socialist mentality) you are not going to generate outsized
returns from pure capitalism.

------
ed_balls
> Many household names, such as Slack, Hootsuite and Shopify — which may be
> mistakenly considered as U.S. products — hail from north of the border.

They are Delaware corporations, aren't they?

~~~
forkLding
Not essentially, everyone registers as Delaware for tax benefits. So did we
but we're situated in Toronto.

Also you could be sarcastic, hard to tell.

------
cylinder
This headline is funny. North America is only three countries. One is already
its startup center which leaves only Mexico or Canada or both as its up and
coming center.

------
jjtheblunt
Canada is North America's shameful violence against seals for furs center. Oh,
and Waterloo is a good school.

------
AzzieElbab
feast your eyes
[https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/325100669/](https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/325100669/)

------
Illniyar
The title is really foolish - so out of the two countries in north america,
the first one actually being the startup center canada is aspiring to
(according to the title) canada is up and coming.

Also, shocking news - I use my left hand the second most often of all my
hands.

A better, and overused, title would be "Canada is poised to be the next
startup center" or something.

------
chefandy
Meh. The weather is already too cold for me in the Northern US.

~~~
huangc10
Actually, the weather in Vancouver and Seattle are not bad as they have the
Pineapple Express.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineapple_Express](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineapple_Express)

~~~
kazinator
"Pinapple Express" is an ironic term for what is, in fact, days of shitty
weather. There are waves of heavy rain. The air might not be that cold, but
you will be if you're soaked.

~~~
huangc10
"Shitty" is subjective. The fact is, the Pineapple Express brings warmer,
tropical-esque temperatures. I grew up in Vancouver and didn't move away till
I was 18. I've always thought the rainy weather was nice and didn't think too
much about it. That's just me...haha :D

~~~
kazinator
Pineapple express weather is good for people who walk to their cars with an
umbrella. 11 degrees C in January indisputably beats being in some snow
blizzard in northern Ontario. Look how much better off we are than those
suckers, ha ha!

11 degree _water_ , on the other hand, is like out of the cold water tap. Not
so great for outdoor activity. Add to that the windchill factor if you're
running or cycling.

Clear, sunny weather and -3 degrees is better than pouring rain and 11
degrees.

Staying warm isn't much of an issue for outdoor activity. It's not hard to
achieve: an extra layer, some head gear and gloves; being _dry_ is more
important.

------
personjerry
Is Waterloo or Toronto better for starting a tech startup?

~~~
filereaper
I'd say Waterloo, getting office rentals are cheaper and overall living costs
are cheaper in Waterloo. You also get access to UW and Velocity (shout-out to
Jay Shah!).

Toronto has MARS and DMZ and 111 Richmond are a few places to start off. I'd
rather take Waterloo over that any day. The real-estate in Toronto is just
insane.

Neither Toronto nor Waterloo has the VC's of Sand Hill Road, so if you're on
the fund raising track, Waterloo being an hour away makes no difference.

So yea, I'd still opt for Waterloo, just my opinion, others will likely
disagree.

