
Ask HN: Getting harassed at work for my sexuality, what should i do? - yahyaheee
Hey, I have found myself in a bit of a bind at my job over the last several months. A little backstory, I am a bisexual man in a relationship with a woman. I&#x27;m not sure how it happened for me this way, but it did, and I am honest about who I am with those that are close to me. So, here is my current situation:<p>I started working at a part of Oracle back in September, and over the next several months my coworkers one aisle over from me have begun talking about my sexuality in a very demeaning manner. They are I guess &#x27;whispering&#x27;, but I can clearly hear them talking about whether I am gay or not on a close to daily basis. This is also followed up with jokes about how I &#x27;think&#x27; I&#x27;m Bi, and how thats a bunch of bullshit. I work in an area where I am one of the only engineers and am surrounded by a bunch of what I would call Prep School types.<p>I have tried to ignore it, and brush it off, but it gets in my head and makes me really upset. Which is then in turn misinterpreted as me having a &#x27;bad attitude&#x27;. I have opened up to several other people at work about it and they have suggested going to HR. I have never really been the type to go to teacher, but I feel like I&#x27;m kind of out of options here. I also worry about the possible repercussions of it.<p>I guess I am wondering if anyone has been in a similar boat? And perhaps has some advice to share? Thanks
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ScottBurson
Wow, you're not getting the right advice here at all.

I haven't been in this situation, but I believe very strongly that _you should
consult an attorney before going to HR_. There are attorneys who specialize in
employment law. They will tell you what to do as far as recordkeeping, the
legality of recording these incidents in your jurisdiction, etc.

The thing to keep in mind is that _HR 's job is to protect the company, not
you_. They're not "teacher", exactly, and you can't necessarily trust them.

Personally, I think the behavior you're describing is abominable -- besides
being highly illegal -- and I hope you sue their asses for a big pile of
money. But, whether to litigate or not will be up to you.

~~~
gozur88
>I haven't been in this situation, but I believe very strongly that you should
consult an attorney before going to HR.

The first thing the attorney is going to ask is "What have you done to alert
the company this problem exists?" The company isn't going to be liable for
something like this if they don't know about it, particularly if they have a
policy against it (and I assure you they do).

Yes, it's HR's job to protect the company. And the way they protect the
company is by acting on these kinds of complaints.

~~~
mannykannot
One purpose of speaking to an attorney first is to avoid foreclosing on your
options if HR doesn't do the right thing.

~~~
gozur88
What options would those be?

~~~
mannykannot
There's another question for your attorney.

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dalke
Oracle HR should be trained in EEOC regulations and guidelines.
[https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/wysk/enforcement_protecti...](https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/wysk/enforcement_protections_lgbt_workers.cfm)
describes some of them. [https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/brochure-
gender_stere...](https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/brochure-
gender_stereotyping.cfm) gives a phone number to call where the EEOC might
"explain whether the situation you face is lawful or unlawful." 1-800-669-4000
. I have never tried that number and I don't know the quality of the response.

If you talk with HR, phrases that will catch their attention are "hostile
environment" and "discrimination based on sexual orientation."

If you go the HR/EEOC route, know your rights concerning anti-retaliation. (HR
may not tell you about them. Their job is to protect the company, and not
necessarily give you information beyond the minimum to do that.) Start at
[https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/facts-
retal.cfm](https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/facts-retal.cfm) . In short,
complaining about harassment in good faith, even if it eventually is not
judged to be harassment, is a protected activity. The company is not allowed
to conduct adverse actions against you, nor allow employees to do so.

That doesn't mean things will get better if you go that route. I have no
experience with it. I mention it only so you know some about what the law
says.

~~~
yahyaheee
Thank you, this is really solid advice

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SEJeff
Being a hetero male engineer, I find your story quite appalling. My advice to
you would be to go to HR immediately. It isn't being a tattletale when you're
being discriminated against or being made fun of in mean spirits. In fact, the
HR term for this is sexual harassment, which I suspect a serious business firm
like Oracle has a 0 tolerance rule for to CYA against lawsuits.

~~~
MaysonL
I would also advocate going to HR, preferably after recording one or two of
those conversations.

~~~
mtviewdave
I would recommend going to HR, but not recording the conversation. The laws in
your jurisdiction may make such recording illegal.

~~~
ScottBurson
I would start by consulting an employment attorney.

Even in California, which normally requires consent of all parties for
recording, these circumstances might fall under an exception. That's a
question for the attorney. IANAL, but it seems possible to me because the
statue exempts conversations that the participants might reasonably expect
could be overheard.

Short of an audio recording, you should certainly start keeping a handwritten
log of incidents; write down all of them in as much detail as you can.

~~~
yahyaheee
Yeah I now realize that I should have done this, but I have the feeling that
they are trying to push me out now and I only have so much time to try and
collect anything. I suppose I could try and get witnesses

~~~
burfog
Trying to push you out? You might just be paranoid. Even if it is true, it
might be for unrelated reasons. In any case, next time around:

1\. Don't announce to everybody what you like to do with your dick and/or
orifices. Even if you were 100% straight, it wouldn't be appropriate in a
professional work environment.

2\. Grow a thick skin. So they talk. Oh well.

3\. Pick a better employer. You'd find more acceptance at the CIA (not joking)
or a typical big defense contractor.

------
gpsgay
I would say that if you are open and have no problem with who you are (as you
seem to be based on your comment), maybe a good idea would be to talk to them
directly and address the comments... If that doesn't work, then go to HR...
But that's just me, at this point I have no problem in telling people about my
sexuality, and I have always been a very direct person that can't keep her
mouth shout (which isn't always the best of things). I have not been in a
position like that at work, so I guess it depends on several things, starting
on how "friendly" your workplace is...

If you don't have people to talk about this, I invite you to join GPSGAY and
further discuss.

Good luck!

~~~
yahyaheee
Yeah, I know I should be like this. I think it was just years of trauma that
have made me somewhat unable to do this. And hey are all in their own little
'cool kid' clique, that is in favor with the boss

------
hlieberman
Oracle is a large enough company that I'm sure they have an employee resource
group for LGBT people that you could reach out to.

If you do go to HR, document /everything/ \-- names and dates when the
harassment started, exactly who has been involved, who you talk to and when in
HR, and what they said. HR isn't there to protect you; they're there to
protect the company from liability. Generally, in these sort of situations,
the liability is best resolved by disciplining those bothering you, but it can
swing the other way often enough that it's best to have your ducks in a row.

------
partisan
That is really horrible and I am sorry you are going through something like
that. You shouldn't have to. The fact that they feel comfortable speaking
about your sexuality in ANY way means that the culture has allowed this to
happen.

I would consult an employment lawyer. Here is the sad truth of the matter: you
are probably going to be on the losing end of this. You will likely be passed
over for promotions and will likely face increased harassment. HR tends to be
a leaky sieve so do not trust that they will do their job.

So, stand for your principles and take no prisoners or nurture your career and
grow a much thicker skin than anyone would have to. Or leave.

~~~
yahyaheee
Yeah I think you are in line with my thinking on this. I just almost feel as
though it's a losing battle, but at the same time I think it's one that I need
to fight

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Well, yes, it's probably a losing battle in terms of winning the hearts and
minds of this clique of prep boys. You probably aren't going to do that. (You
might win with one or two, but probably not the group.)

It's one you need to fight? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would suggest
at least thinking twice. You are going to take some hits in that process, at
least emotionally and perhaps professionally. You need to be honest with
yourself about whether you are able to take those hits. (On the other hand,
you're _already_ taking emotional hits, so maybe doing nothing is not an
option for you.)

Do you feel you need to fight this to keep other people from going through
what you're going through? You can do it; employment law is _firmly_ on your
side. (IANAL, though.) In fact, I'm pretty sure that Oracle has HR policy that
is _also_ on your side. But I'd caution you to be careful about how much of
your emotional energy you invest in a fight like this. You may decide you need
to fight it, but even winning could look like losing. Those people aren't
likely to become your friends after a lecture from HR. They may stop the
comments, but become more coldly hostile toward you, maybe even passively
trying to undermine you.

You can make them stop the behavior. You can't make them grow up and treat you
like humans should treat each other.

Do you need to fight this? I can't tell you, but be realistic about what
fighting is likely to get you.

------
a3n
Unless you really like it there, just leave. You have skills. And it sounds
like you're not surrounded by other people with skills; that must be a little
disheartening.

If you want to stay, maybe talk to the people involved, or not, and possibly
your manager or his manager. But definitely go to HR, and take notes or make
them later, in a notebook not owned by the company. And be prepared to be
officially harrassed or fired. The notes may help the employment suit, or the
application for unemployment.

Either way, start testing the waters, even to the point of an interview.

Caveat: I have no direct experience with this problem.

~~~
yahyaheee
Yeah I'm debating this. I really like the work and it's in line with my
desired career trajectory, but the culture is just toxic. That and I'm just an
engineer 1 so I don't have a huge amount of opportunity

~~~
a3n
Life is too long for toxic culture.

------
drewmassey
Just print out this thread and hang it up somewhere conspicuous. I'd expect
that would get the appropriate amount of attention.

~~~
yahyaheee
Hahaha I needed a good laugh, I was secretly hoping someone there may read
this. But hen again they aren't that cool

------
shados
For the people saying "go to HR", if I remember well from my friends who work
there, Oracle's HR is something like 4 people for the entire company
(everything is automated).

So it's more like "send an email to HR people you've never seen or heard of",
and with how impersonal that is, it's easier said than done.

Still, in this current political context, big tech companies don't want to be
seen as unsupportive of these issues, so it's still probably the best bet.
Contact HR :)

------
hluska
I'm a hetero guy so I've never been in your situation. Consequently, take this
advice (and the question that precedes it) with several grains of salt.

Who do you have to talk to? Do you have a solid support network of people who
know you're bi and support you unconditionally??

I ask because the next steps are potentially hard, especially if you're
surrounded by the type of prep school types who tend to stick together in
groups.

 _I need to edit this in response to an excellent comment by mtviewdave, who
suggested that depending on where you live, surreptitiously recording a
conversation may be illegal. Look into the law first!!_ (Source -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11468484](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11468484))

That said, the next time that you hear them talking about you, try to record
the conversation. This prevents a you versus them situation where their own
best witnesses are the co-accused. Their defense could (and likely will) be
that you misheard them...

Once you have it recorded, I wouldn't bother trying to tell them to grow up
and knock it off. Simply walk into HR and make a formal complaint.

I understand that you've never been the type to go to the teacher, but
seriously dude, someone sitting two seats down from you may be in a deep
closet and their closet could be deepening (and get more lonely) with each of
their barbs.

I'm sorry that you're going through this and I wish I could do more. Best of
luck and good on you for coming here to talk about this.

------
coldtea
Send an email to the whole gang with this, and tell them how it's not their
fucking problem, and that you'll going to the HR next.

They'll shut up in no time.

~~~
yahyaheee
I like your style

~~~
cpncrunch
While sending an email might be a good solution, I don't think it is a good
idea to be confrontational about it. I think you need to make them see that
they've been behaving like immature idiots, but without it escalating into a
confrontation.

I think all reasonable people will be on your side if you handle it well. I
like the idea that someone else came up with of posting this thread up on the
noticeboard. That might embarrass them into shutting the fuck up and make them
realise what a bunch of ignorant, immature dicks they've been :)

~~~
jason_slack
He doesn't have to be confrontational at all.

An e-mail in a softer tone, stating the facts and that it hurts would be
enough. He should mention HR in there too.

------
dancecrazy
It's better to talk to people than about them: you know how that feels, right?
These are people you work with, and will continue to work with, if you resolve
the situation, so I think you should just call one of them on what they are
saying. Talk one-on-one with frankness and humor and a willingness to forgive.
If you approach it as adult-to-adult, they may not react like a stupid kid.

------
Mz
The sooner you act, the better. I am a woman and I worked for a Fortune 500
company and the very first time a specific man said something to me that I
felt was beyond the pale, I emailed him and copied our two bosses that he was
never to speak to me that way again. I got interviewed by HR and explained the
back story and my reasoning. My impression is he got sent to sensitivity
training.

Please do not wait any longer. Address this ASAP. Doing nothing just grows the
problem and the longer it goes on, the harder it will be to resolve. Any time
you run into something like this, you should address it sooner rather than
later. Prejudice based problems do not begin with violence. They begin with
disrespect. The longer the disrespect goes unchecked, the more likely
something really ugly will come of it. The sooner you act, the more likely it
is you can stop it.

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burfog
You hear people talking about you, and you think you are being pushed out. I
expect you will dismiss this possibility, but...

It just occurred to me that my brother had this too. He was certain that
people would talk about him being gay. It wasn't actually happening. He was
starting to get schizophrenia.

If this is happening to you, you won't want to believe it. Prove it: get
checked.

------
drewmassey
Also you could show print out this thread from HN which would surely have some
cultural capital.

------
borplk
I can't give you specific advice. However DO NOT FORGET that HR has the
company's best interest in mind, not yours.

------
nickysielicki
Have you tried talking to them directly?

