
Some Churches Are Still Packing in Crowds - JumpCrisscross
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-29/some-megachurches-pack-in-crowds-amid-covid-19-warning-flares
======
Brendinooo
I've been seeing this plotline for awhile, and the notion that this is normal
is pure fiction. They are outliers; feel free to call them out for their
irresponsibility, but absolutely do not use them to make any kind of
generalization.

>Some megachurches have opted out of in-person services and turned to live
streaming entirely.

Correction: Just about every church that I've heard about has gone online.
Certainly possible that less-affected states are a week or two behind the
curve, but most understand the weight of this and are acting accordingly.

~~~
teapourer
Unfortunately, "most" is not sufficient here. In South Korea the majority of
cases were spread through a small handful of church gatherings. Consequently I
have come to think that media coverage such as this post is a net benefit to
society, although it is undisputable that they cast many innocent people in a
bad light.

~~~
abnry
It's definitely a problem from a public health perspective, and that's why
there should be legal measures to stop such large gatherings.

However, these types of articles are often used to cast aspersions on _all_
Christians. That was essential the point of the parent comment. Why single out
megachurches? You could find plenty of similar examples in the business,
social and government realm of large groups continuing to meet.

~~~
wolco
For me the word mega in front of churches made me more concerned. Just because
the crowds are so large.

The media's dislike for anything Christian makes this a two quadrant story..
possible three if the mega churches are in a red state.

~~~
gumby
> The media's dislike for anything Christian

Wait, what?

~~~
whatshisface
The phrase "the Media's stance" refers to the media as a whole, the average of
all media. By definition the average will be between the least and the
greatest, which means by definition the Media's stance on a topic will always
be too P-slanted for Q-ists and too Q-slanted for P-ists.

------
nimbius
This is quite a gamble from what I can gather. If the infected congregation of
500 hopes to seek medical attention, they will not find it. Central has no
hospitals, however Baton Rouge (the next nearest city) has a few. Tony is
hoping that if his cavalier defiance of what he perceives to be a political
agenda pays off, he will be able to avoid what his congregants have not:
unemployment. He is rolling the dice to get blood from a stone.

Tony's gamble is dangerous and calculated, as is evidenced by his strategic
use of busses to block media coverage. If a massive outbreak in Central
occurs, his congregation will not be forgotten. People will remember Tony and
his flock long after the federal governments attempts to "flatten the curve."
They will remember flooded hospitals and associate any decline in regional
medical care with him and his attendees. Whats worse, Tonys name will be on
the lips and hearts of anyone in or around Baton Rouge who cannot get care, or
who has watcehd a loved one perish to this disease.

At worst, Attendees will be shunned from employment, outed on social media,
and ostracized from their community. Tonys quick attempt to turn some cash in
a recession will ultimately send him out of the city on a rail as other faith
based communities out him as nothing more than a huckster, not a leader. Tony
might even see a few civil suits for his efforts.

Then there are the people who lose family, parents, or children. They wont
think twice about torching the busses he hid behind. he'll stay in their
memory long after the collection plate is passed this sunday.

~~~
ctdonath
A congregation of 500 is not a “megachurch”, >10,000 is.

~~~
threatofrain
550 attending in a single session is pretty big, and the week before was
double. Over 10,000 in a single sitting is a high bar to set.

~~~
ctdonath
Hence “MEGA church”. There are several in the Atlanta area. One is actually 12
campuses, seating ~2,500 each, typically with a live pastor at one being
telecast to the others on life-size projections (effect of virtual presence is
pretty convincing). Others hold thousands at one sitting with multiple
services.

550 is “normal” in comparison.

------
duxup
>“The virus, we believe, is politically motivated. We hold our religious
rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says.”

A virus with a political inclination / motivation. That's a new one.

~~~
zanderwohl
I live in a religious county in Iowa, and while all the churches have stopped
meeting, some people have expressed concerns that the forbidding of
congregation is a violation of religious freedom. Nobody is violating it
though.

~~~
techsupporter
> some people have expressed concerns that the forbidding of congregation is a
> violation of religious freedom.

There's an old saying that the Constitution is not a suicide pact. I think
that applies here.

Yes, if the government--at any level--was forbidding people from meeting for
religious reasons for an indefinite period simply "just because," that would
be a violation of our freedoms and something to be gravely concerned about.

Restrictions on religion not based on the religious belief itself have been
allowed since the founding of our republic. You can't have a religion where a
"sincerely-held belief" is that one parishioner in attendance gets murdered.
Or that smashing in people's front doors is a sign of holiness. Religious
buildings, while exempt from property tax, must still comply with building,
electrical, plumbing, and life safety codes.

In this situation, given that it is content-neutral-- _all_ gatherings of size
are prohibited--and time-limited and in the furtherance of a major social
interest (inhibiting the spread of a brand new virus), I think it withstands
Constitutional scrutiny.

~~~
threatofrain
I think what doesn't make sense to me is the fact that assembly is required
for democracy to work, and the people have to accept their loss of assembly
with an accelerated pace of facts before there's any time to digest.

The people must simply trust that forfeiting a necessary aspect of democratic
health will be correct in hindsight.

~~~
robotron
Unfortunately, we have the rest of the world to look at as an example of it
being necessary.

------
laluser
The only thing these pastors who are keeping churches open is money. To ignore
every health professional out there right now means they don't care about
their flock at all.

~~~
save_ferris
Unfortunately, I doubt this is true. Conservative churches have largely become
a proxy for conservative politics, and a lot of conservative media still
questions the methods and motives of the coronavirus response.

Imagine people that are so deeply convinced that the media is lying to them
and this is a plot to undermine his agenda. That narrative absolutely exists
and there are many out there who believe it.

~~~
war1025
This is severe bias on your part in my opinion.

Conservatives are just as concerned as liberals about the prospect of hundreds
of thousands of people dying. The only difference is they tend to have
confidence that the government will be able to handle the response effort.

~~~
michaelmrose
What about the Lt Governor who said that his grandma would Gladly die for
America as it were. Playing down the level of current and coming deaths and
passing off the loss of those who ultimately do die as necessary for the
continuing prosperity of the remainder is the mainstream conservative
position.

~~~
war1025
Some people are morons. That doesn't change based on whether they are
conservative or liberal.

The majority of my news comes from NPR (IPR locally here in Iowa). The main
people that comment on their Facebook page are clearly liberal and clearly
also some of the biggest idiots you've ever met.

Being in a position of leadership also doesn't automatically mean you're not a
moron.

What I know is that the Republican President and also the Republican Governor
of Iowa are taking this very seriously.

Also I highly recommend people actually watch the press briefings because what
I've found is that any time I actually listen to what Trump says, he makes a
hell of a lot more sense than whatever clip the media generally chooses to
play out of context.

~~~
cycrutchfield
Ok, now you’re just trolling us. I watch Trump’s press conferences. The word
salad is still word salad. He clearly has no idea how to handle this and is
incapable of taking responsibility or decisive action.

~~~
war1025
I am 100% not trolling. I find those briefings to be very informative.

~~~
FireBeyond
“It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear”

Informative?

"There's a theory that, in April, when it gets warm, historically, that has
been able to kill the virus,"

Informative?

"when it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away."

I could go on. And on, and on. But I doubt it will make any difference,
whatsoever.

------
_bxg1
> The virus, we believe, is politically motivated.

Good God. The times we live in.

Like, what does this sentence even mean? He probably doesn't even know
himself. The vague couplings we make between our political identity and just,
random subjects, have transcended the subconscious and become an acceptable
thing to just... profess. As-is.

~~~
mistermann
This behaviour is not particularly new really. For example, there are all
sorts of people who believe the Iraq war was started based on less than
entirely truthful pretenses.

Some people have very active imaginations, but that's just one of the things
that makes life so interesting!

~~~
rsynnott
I mean, there’s a difference between “gulf war 2.0 was dodgy” (which is fairly
well documented at this point) and claiming that a pandemic is ‘politically
motivated’. What does the latter even mean? That the virus is itself
fraudulent? That the virus is an artificial creation? That the virus is
sentient and spends a lot of time on twitter? I can’t think of any reasonable
interpretation of that.

~~~
mistermann
There are both similarities and differences.

I'm not quite sure which part of my comment you object to? Is what I said
above false?

------
socalnate1
The good news is that these are outliers; this is not typical behavior for any
size church, mega or otherwise.

~~~
nvahalik
Generally speaking, biblical churches (And their people) must:

1) obey the rulers and authorities (insomuch as it does not cause issue with
any other command) and

2) love their neighbor. E.g. by not knowingly engaging in activity which might
cause someone to fall ill

3) not flaunt freedom. While we have every _right_ to meet, we are not
disobeying if we do not.

~~~
jhawk28
Hebrews 10:24-25 would indicate that the people should meet together.
Depending on how literally their church interprets this, it could mean they
don't consider things like virtual meetings enough.

~~~
perl4ever
If it doesn't specifically prohibit "virtual meetings", because they couldn't
imagine the technology, then it seems to me it doesn't _literally_ forbid
them.

I [virtually] never understand how other people use "literal"...

------
jkingsbery
This headline is technically right, which is the best kind.

More seriously, the article could find 3 megachurches that are still open.
Pretty much all churches are shut down, except ones that are live streaming
services. For something so unenforceable to be so widely adopted "Not many
megachurches packing in crowds" seems like a more appropriate headline.

------
intopieces
The headline says "megachurches," but the article says "More than 550
parishioners attended, about half as many as the week before, pastor Tony
Spell told a local news reporter."

1100 parishioners is megachurch now? Last I heard you needed at least 2k /
week to qualify [0]

[0]
[http://hirr.hartsem.edu/megachurch/definition.html](http://hirr.hartsem.edu/megachurch/definition.html)

~~~
rsynnott
If there were 1100 last week, when everyone sensible was already self-
isolating where feasible, then presumably normal attendance is much higher
than that.

~~~
Ardren
It was 1800 people 7 days ago

[https://www.brproud.com/health/coronavirus/central-church-
ho...](https://www.brproud.com/health/coronavirus/central-church-
hosts-1800-people-amid-covid-19-outbreak/)

Quote just for fun:

> Spell told BRPROUD that he believes covid-19 can be cured through “the
> healing hand of Jesus.” When asked what would happen should one of his
> parishioners test positive for the coronavirus, Spell referred to a passage
> from the Bible. “If that is our command, they shall lay hands on the sick
> and they shall recover.”

------
Tade0
Incredible.

We had a very similar situation in Poland - our local branch of the catholic
church was reluctant to enforce social distancing in their temples.

Eventually they caved, but who knows how many additional infections/deaths
this will cause in the long run.

------
SN76477
Sad behavior by modern snake oil peddlers.

------
predictmktegirl
Your right to swing your fist ends at my face. We need to start handing out
fines to those who willfully put other lives in danger. I recall reading that
in the Spanish Flu pandemic, police in San Francisco fined those in public not
wearing masks. Enjoy your freedoms, just not at my peril.

------
pengaru
“It’s not a concern,” he said. “The virus, we believe, is politically
motivated. We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no
matter what someone says.”

~~~
Barrin92
_“I shall ask God mercifully to protect us. Then I shall fumigate, help purify
the air, administer medicine and take it. I shall avoid places and persons
where my presence is not needed in order not to become contaminated and thus
perchance inflict and pollute others and so cause their death as a result of
my negligence. If God should wish to take me, he will surely find me and I
have done what he has expected of me and so I am not responsible for either my
own death or the death of others. If my neighbor needs me however I shall not
avoid place or person but will go freely as stated above. See this is such a
God-fearing faith because it is neither brash nor foolhardy and does not tempt
God.”_

Martin Luther, 1527 after a plague wrecked his hometown of Wittenberg

~~~
perl4ever
I don't consider myself a Christian, but this is exactly what I consider
appropriate in a situation like this.

The language of "tempting God" is weird though. I mean, I know it's a phrase
used all the time, but it's still just weird because it makes me stop and say
just what sort of personality does God have anyway?

~~~
PakG1
The word tempt in various Biblical passages when talking about tempting God
use definitions #4 and 5 as listed at
[https://www.dictionary.com/browse/tempt?s=t](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/tempt?s=t)

A summary of how theologians interpret the word is found here (just did a
quick Google search), and the explanation matches with what I wrote above.
[https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-
almanacs...](https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-
transcripts-and-maps/tempting-god)

So I don't think the words "tempting God" mean what you think they mean
(presuming you thought it used definitions #1, 2, or 3).

~~~
perl4ever
I heard a rumor that when the Bible uses the word, it wasn't actually English,
modern or archaic, in the original.

Looks like it might be πειράζω.

Edit: and Luther apparently used the word Versuchung, which I'm not sure how
to interpret because everybody seems to translate it as temptation in the
sense of seduction, even though the biblical word should be testing or
proving...

~~~
PakG1
Yeah Biblical etymology and comparison with original languages is its own
rabbit hole. See definition of word day in Genesis chapter 1 and how many
conservative American churches don't do a very deep dive.

------
sysbin
Wow, this is like a drug dealer lacing their services with fentanyl. In all
seriousness I'm making the comparison because in both cases the sanctity of
life is being violated in favour of arrogant self-interests.

------
badrabbit
Keyword: _some_

I think they should still open for people that have the virus and need prayer
or counseling or to support anyone that lost their job,etc... (With distancing
and other precautions). But even if you believe you can't get the virus,
unbelievers are supposed to be very welcome in Churches so it is reckless to
endanger them. I guarantee you most Churches that are lead by people that
actually believe in their proclaimed faith agree with what I said (or they are
stricter). Even Joel Osteen isn't holding in person services last I heard.

------
ohazi
Reckless / public endangerment? Arrest the church leaders.

------
wolco
A church in the town of Central Lo, had 550 people at mass. Lebanon Ohio has a
church with 3500 members (no numbers on how many showed up).

These aren't really mega churches. Based on the information provided they are
not saying thousands of people are showing up. The headline is false. What it
should say is three small to medium sized churches don't believe they should
stop live mass.

------
chadlavi
If they want to go be with their god, who am I to deny them? They're gonna see
him sooner than they thought if they keep at it. I'll just do my best to stay
far away from them.

~~~
magduf
The problem is that these people are going to be taking up precious space in
your hospital's ER and ICU units.

Remember, younger people aren't as affected by this as older people. So these
dumb churchgoers (who I believe tend to be younger, if these are megachurches)
will be catching it, then spreading it to their older relatives, who will then
be flooding the hospitals.

~~~
jamesrcole
And they will infect people who have nothing to do with those churches.

------
liquidify
Clearly, the leaders of these types of churches have incontrovertible records
for caring about people. /s of course.

~~~
arcticbull
Certainly this one: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-
faith/wp/2018/05...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-
faith/wp/2018/05/29/a-televangelist-wants-his-followers-to-pay-
for-a-54-million-private-jet-its-his-fourth-plane/)

------
Shorel
Can this be the beginning of the always-virtual megachurch?

~~~
ecpottinger
Don't we already have that considering how many people watch the services on
TV thru the religious channels.

~~~
Shorel
I think computers add an unexplored dimension for interaction.

------
Oletros
As an Spanish without too much knowledge of the religious reality in the US,
what is a mega church?

------
bryanlarsen
This reminds me of the parable of the drowning man and the helicopter.

[https://truthbook.com/stories/funny-god/the-drowning-
man](https://truthbook.com/stories/funny-god/the-drowning-man)

The congregation may say "God will protect us". And he did, by having Donald
Trump and everybody in power telling them not to congregate.

------
gjsman-1000
A big part of this, I can speak for my church, is that we believe in a God,
and thus God has control over plagues and disease. Therefore, it is logical to
believe that we should offer more sacrifice and honor to God in these
difficult times instead of less, in the hope that the long-term effects of the
disease be reduced should it be God's will.

We still take natural precautions, such as maintaining social distancing, as
we believe that it is not ours to tempt God. As it says in the Bible story,
Satan tempted the Lord to throw himself off of a building because scripture
said the angels would catch him. Christ responded that it was also written in
scripture that you should not tempt God. This week, to take natural
precautions without denying the sacredness of the Mass, we actually filled the
parking lot and celebrated Holy Mass with everyone watching from their
vehicles. This way, viewers could participate in the Latin Mass with minimal
risk of exposure.

We obviously do not enjoy this method of worship. But, when it comes to
ensuring the safety of the people while still trying to give honor and
sacrifice, it's a compromise that's better than nothing.

It's kind of like Lord of The Rings, a little bit. Frodo was called to do
everything possible until the very end of the journey, whereupon Eru
Illuvitar, the creator of Middle-Earth, intervened to cause Gollum to slip at
the last moment. God expects us to give our all, and intervenes only when
we've done everything we could have done. This is to allow those who fought
against evil to attain glory, and those who fought for evil to attain
humiliation.

Which is more humiliating for evil? Being instantly defeated by an
omnipresent, all-powerful God, or having been resisted and fought against by
comparatively weak human beings who gave their all in resistance?

~~~
unethical_ban
I just thought of a joke, "Only Catholic churches should be considered
'essential services' during the quarantine, since Protestants don't need it to
know God."

I thank you for your comment, that you seem to be sincere in expressing your
beliefs. I cannot help but express my absolute astonishment that this level of
"proving your love by risking your life" exists in educated society.

I also have never heard of Church described in terms of "honor and sacrifice"
in a positive manner. I have never known that church was seen as so mandatory
by a Christian faith that you should risk your life to go, excepting human
oppression.

~~~
maverick2007
For what it's worth, some (most?) Catholic diocese in the U.S. are not having
services and the usual requirement to attend is not in effect.

------
yters
Is the crisis being used as a bully stick against religion?

------
markdown
We need a couple of Indian cops in the US:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jOQEGBM72s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jOQEGBM72s)

