
Can you buy your own train? - pseudolus
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/03/private-rail-car-fan-owners-amtrak-cuts-trains-are-cool/584971/
======
rmason
One thing my late father wanted to do was start his own rail line, one without
the track. When Oldsmobile closed there were suddenly a lot of executives in
Lansing having to make the commute every day to downtown Detroit. My Dad
located some combination train engine passenger integrated car units that had
been in storage since the late sixties. He simply wanted to rent the track.

Even at a pokey 50-55 mph he could get to downtown Detroit 30-45 minutes
faster than driving because of traffic congestion. He demonstrated that the
demand was there. But sadly the railroads wouldn't even take a meeting.

~~~
RickJWagner
I've always wished for a network of rail flatbed cars that make high-speed
runs from state to state.

You could drive onto one of the flatbeds (from a ramp) in your car, then ride
the train from center-of-a-state to center-of-the-next-state. After a brief
layover (for cars to get off and new ones to get on) the train would depart
for the next state.

It just seems like a decent way to enable medium-speed, long-distance travel.
And wherver you went, you'd have your car when you arrived.

~~~
nycdatasci
Are you familiar with the auto train?
[https://m.amtrak.com/h5/r/www.amtrak.com/auto-
train](https://m.amtrak.com/h5/r/www.amtrak.com/auto-train)

~~~
RickJWagner
I hadn't seen that. Thanks!

------
thanatos_dem
The problem isn’t having the train, it’s having permission to use the rails.

Having worked at a railroad, I will say it’s comically easy to steal a train,
for instance. They all have the same key, which is basically just a plastic
rod.

The argument of the railroads is... okay, you have our train. Now what? You
either go forward or you go backward, and we know where both those directions
go.

~~~
avar
You can also go really fast and intentionally derail the train, which is both
a monetary and (depending on where you can get to) a security concern, or
crash into another train on the same tracks (possibly a passenger train).

~~~
jpatokal
Except that you don't control the signaling or the switching, meaning you
can't choose where to go and you will very quickly be noticed and depending on
the level of signaling automation either stopped completely or at least
shunted to the place you can do least damage.

~~~
raquo
Are the switches protected any better than trains? Can't you just walk up to
them at the right time and switch them manually with some standard tool?

~~~
kaybe
[https://media.ccc.de/v/28c3-4799-de-
can_trains_be_hacked](https://media.ccc.de/v/28c3-4799-de-
can_trains_be_hacked)

edit: There's more!

[https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7490-the_great_train_cyber_robbe...](https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7490-the_great_train_cyber_robbery)
(and this one has English)

------
pseudolus
Somebody should Airbnb this. Who wouldn't want the opportunity to cross the
United States in their own personal rail car? No airports to deal with, no
impersonal hotels. Sounds like a retirement dream.

~~~
ghaff
How much are you willing to pay? There are (a very few) luxury train trips in
Europe. Maybe $5-10K NY-SF or NY-SEA would cover it in the US? It's totally
doable if there were a market; basically upscale the long-haul Amtrak routes
with higher-end accommodations and food. The evidence suggests there's not the
demand.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
I think it's partially a chicken-or-the-egg problem. Honestly, I didn't even
know these private rail cars existed until this article. I feel like if the
Kardashians took a cross-country tour in one of these things and Instagrammed
it that it would be all the rage.

~~~
ghaff
You need a critical mass of volume though. You can get pretty nice suites on
Amtrak today on the long-haul routes. It's admittedly not luxury in the sense
of really first-class food and everyone dressing up but probably a nice slow
travel experience so long as you don't care too much about arriving as
scheduled. I'm not convinced there's that big a market for don't care about
cost + don't care about time.

------
ak217
These "extreme railfans" occasionally make the already atrocious Amtrak
service unbearable for the rest of us. Case in point: we once tried to take
the Coast Starlight from Oakland to Los Angeles. The train was delayed out of
Oakland by more than 3 hours, and into LA by about 5 hours (the difference
between a 7 PM arrival and a midnight arrival). The crew had to change in an
unexpected location, and conductors left the train unstaffed toward the end of
the route.

The train had had two extra private cars tucked on to the end of it in
Portland. When we looked at this particular train's schedule, we found that it
started to fall behind schedule when it stopped to hook up those private cars
(conductors confirmed this to us). That schedule gap started at 2 hours and
grew to 5.

I know I'll never ride that Amtrak route again, and this experience soured me
on all of Amtrak in general (except maybe for the NW Corridor - I know it's
run differently).

We took the trip before the March 2018 memo that the article quotes: "These
operations caused significant operational distraction, failed to capture fully
allocated profitable margins, and sometimes delayed our paying customers on
our scheduled trains ... one-time trips and charters are immediately
discontinued." To us, that's too little too late, Amtrak's brand is ruined.

~~~
Defenestresque
Clearly you had a bad experience, but considering that Amtrak obviously kept
an eye on the issue, determined a fix and resolved it to make sure it doesn't
happen again -- wouldn't that make you _more_ likely to take Amtrak in the
future? Not all companies are as pro-active about fixing problems.

Just not sure why their brand would be ruined considering the one issue you
had with the service was proactively resolved.

------
Waterluvian
The one thing I've concluded about being in tech is that if I get rich, I need
to put a model train line on my retirement property. But unlike everyone that
gets 1/8 or 1/6 scale, I want to commission a 2 scale train.

~~~
np_tedious
Meaning twice as big as an ordinary train?

~~~
Waterluvian
Exactly. I think it's a hilarious concept that deserves to exist somewhere.

~~~
jrochkind1
Forces me to start thinking about what "model" means in "model train"... Would
a 1-scale train be a "model"?

~~~
Wohlf
It's a purely semantic argument, but I think if it can perform the function of
the original, it's no longer a model.

------
pontifier
I looked into this a few years ago and found that it would cost about $350k to
get started. It did look promising, and I read through all of the regulations
and inspection certifications required, the requirements from Amtrak, and
decided I just couldn't do it. It was a fun fantasy for a few months though.

Autonomous luxury RVs will fill a bit of this niche, and at a much lower cost.

~~~
JackFr
Zeppelins.

~~~
coldacid
Just have to make sure to fill up on helium, not hydrogen.

~~~
aitchnyu
After a century of better engineering, can't we make hydrogen bags that can
contain leaks and flames better?

~~~
adav
Is there even the appetite to try, from a PR perspective?

------
josephcooney
In the gilded age owning your own rail car was like owning your own private
jet. A lot of moguls owned one or more. Rockefeller was too cheap to buy one,
but one of the railroads gave him one to curry favour with him. THAT is power.

------
darkstar999
> “I’m not in this business to make money off of it,” says Lowe, a 33-year
> veteran of the airline industry. Some trips he has taken, he says, have cost
> him more money than the dollars spent on tickets by passengers in the Amtrak
> trains his cars are hitched to at the end.

It costs him more than the entire train of passengers? $3.67/mile is insane.

~~~
unreal37
$3.67 per mile is just the "cost of gas". I bet he has to pay to get the train
from storage to the spot where they'd pick it up, do the same on the other end
to come back home, and do it again to get back to his parking spot.

------
michalskop
There was even a hackathon on Prague (Czechia) - Kosice (Slovakia) train a few
years back. It's quite easy (but not very common, for sure) and not so
expensive to rent a car or a whole train in CZ (from the train companies).
There are also some historical trains for rent (run by enthusiasts, usually).

~~~
stabbles
There's also the yearly Tweakers Express from Amsterdam (NL) to Cologne / Köln
(DE)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkOFnvxkZLc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkOFnvxkZLc)

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>Tweakers Express

That has a very, very, different connotation in American English.

It sounds like the name the scrap yard gives to the regular who always shows
up towing doubles with a minivan.

------
ocdtrekkie
This really seems like an intriguing hobby. I'm honestly somewhat shocked this
is a service that Amtrak offers at all.

~~~
8bitsrule
Another interesting service Amtrak offers is its relatively low-cast shipping.
If you're willing to bring your boxed stuff to the station, and pick it up on
the other end.

[https://www.amtrak.com/express-shipping](https://www.amtrak.com/express-
shipping)

There's a 500-lb limit on each shipment, between more than 100 cities. An
option for those not in a hurry, or who want to avoid driving the stuff.

~~~
owenversteeg
Huh. Looks interesting, but there are some odd limits. The 3 feet by 3 feet by
3 feet seems unusually restrictive, but I suppose if you can palletize the
shipment then you get 60" x 48" x 60" (1.5m x 1.2m x 1.5m).

The main restrictive thing, to me, is the list of prohibited items. Everything
from stamps to watches to poles, perishables, office equipment (calculators,
computers, printers, telephones...), medicine, liquids, furniture, mattresses,
appliances, electronic equipment of any kind (explicitly mentioning TVs,
radios, stereos...) engines, motorized vehicles, fragile articles... the list
goes on.

I literally can't think of anything that would fit those requirements that
would be large or heavy enough to need to be moved by Amtrak.

------
dau
The problem with buying your own train is that you don't own the rails that
you are dependent on. At least in Europe you have to submit a letter to an
agency and request timeslot reservations some time in advance if you want to
go for a ride.

~~~
Symbiote
From the article, it looks like the American way is to own a carriage or two,
and attach them to a passing Amtrak passenger train. This is disruptive to
Amtrak's passengers (!).

The European way is much less disruptive (the private train will fit in around
whatever is already scheduled), though having to rent or own a locomotive and
driver in addition to the carriage must be significantly more expensive.

I don't know about elsewhere, but in Britain there are fairly regular trips by
private steam trains, or other old trains. A relative used to take these trips
every few months.

People who aren't interested in the train itself can just rent an ordinary,
modern train. Again in Britain, this happens for cases like a large group of
football supporters (probably in the official fan club) who need to travel a
long way for a match. Presumably, this isn't much different to hiring a bus
with a driver.

~~~
TylerE
The problem is in America we don't have open access to the tracks.

They are all owned by different railroads vs the UK were they're all owned by
one (formerly government) organization.

Here in the US, even if you could rent a locomotive and crew, you'd have to
get permission from each individual railroad whose tracks you wanted to cross.

------
ChuckMcM
One of those things on my bucket list, to ride across the country in my own
rail car.

Reading the article and how dependent the whole thing is on Amtrak though
makes me wonder if we're talking to the wrong railroad. The freight folks have
a better system for building custom consists and sending them around the
country.

~~~
1stcity3rdcoast
The problem with hooking up to freight trains are numerous. First, the ride is
bumpy. Freight trains add/remove cars throughout the journey, which generates
large bumps.

More troublesome, though, are freight rail yards. They don’t have potable
water hookups, wastewater disposal, or other passenger amenities. And they are
notoriously dangerous at night. Drifters, break ins, no lighting... it’s no
place for your family to sleep. Plus they are located on the outskirts of
town, making disembarking difficult. Passenger rail yards accommodate for all
of these issues.

------
flurdy
Travel like the Queen:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Royal_Train](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Royal_Train)

------
adav
In the UK, there's a privately-owned steam train that runs on the National
Rail network. It was built from scratch starting in the 90s and completed
around 2008. You can read about the history of the project here
[https://www.a1steam.com](https://www.a1steam.com)

The aspect of it that I found most interesting is how they solved engineering
and manufacturing problems. These issues were commonplace in the heyday of
steam, but few-to-no companies have the capacity or skills to complete them in
the modern day.

It fun imagining what the equivalent will be for our generation. An iPhone
which no-one knows how, or has the capacity, to recreate in less than 100
years!?

Edit: spelling

------
stabbles
This reminds me of a story about the philosopher Wittgenstein missing the
train and deciding to buy a train for himself instead.

Googling the story does not turn up many results. Does anyone know if this is
in fact true?

~~~
anonymfus
Googling "Wittgenstein missing train" returned me page 44 of "Ludwig
Wittgenstein" by Edward Kanterian from "Critical Lives" series, which
attributes this story to David Pinsent's diaries, but talks about "hiring
entire train" instead of buying it:

[https://books.google.ru/books?id=yfeJH-1KcD8C&pg=PA44&lpg=PA...](https://books.google.ru/books?id=yfeJH-1KcD8C&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=Wittgenstein+missing+a+train&source=bl&ots=XLPJ7lT8xc&sig=ACfU3U0qkKZVxNSFomfE1gE10mYfvvupQA&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiFsv_LsKPhAhURs4sKHb2aBc4Q6AEwDHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Wittgenstein%20missing%20a%20train&f=false)

Bing returned this HN thread and a link to the relevant part of Wikipedia
article where this is also stated and "Portraits of Wittgenstein, Extracts
from the Diary of David Pinsent 1912–1914" are referenced:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein#Sexual_ori...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein#Sexual_orientation_and_relationship_with_David_Pinsent)

------
noer
There's a private car club that does daily runs on one of the commuter rails
lines in Chicago. I used to see it from time to time when my commute took my
over the line it's on.

------
scythe
>$3.67 per mile

Well _there 's_ your problem. Raise the price! You'd think a senior fellow at
the _Cato Institute_ of all places would have thought of that.

~~~
henvic
You can't expect that raising prices is going to cut it as Amtrak is very
inefficient like many, if not most, state-owned companies [that even receive
subsidies], though.

------
nwhatt
"Trains not boats" \- my new startup mantra

------
crisopolis
So can't a private railroad company build new tracks? For instance we know
that traffic is bound by a interstate highway to get from City A to City B. It
clogs with traffic due to a aging bridge and losing lanes.

Can my railroad company, acquire all the land necessary to build a station on
both sides and track between them and then start to fan out from there?

Besides the property owners who can stop me?

~~~
toast0
Getting mostly straight line access between A and B is going to be amazingly
difficult, and more so as you get closer and the property owners get more and
more stubborn, because you're invested. 99% of a rail route isn't very useful,
and doing a jog around a stubborn parcel owner isn't very possible.

Realistically, you need eminent domain, a frontier environment, or a super
motivated population.

------
jrochkind1
> For this, they pay Amtrak $3.67 per mile

That seems too cheap. For many routes and cars, if you even half-fill the car,
you're paying less per person than you would for an ordinary ticket on that
route.

------
benj111
So as I understand it Amtrak doesn't own the track. Could these owners not
negotiate access with the track owners? They could use vintage engines also,
if that's their thing.

~~~
morpheuskafka
I'm sure there are some sort of rules on mixed consists of freight and
passenger, the freight railroads also wouldn't have access arrangements to use
station facilities. If you're talking about buying a locomotive and running a
completely private consist, that would work, but you would have to start your
own private railroad company, get FRA certified crew, and satisfy the Class I
host railroads that your company was able to follow their rulebooks and not be
more trouble than you're worth to their traffic.

It's probably doable though, there are some very short Class 3s with only a
few employees that use small portions of Class I tracks and yards.

~~~
ars
> I'm sure there are some sort of rules on mixed consists of freight and
> passenger

It could work if you are willing to travel slowly. Freight trains don't travel
very fast (25/mpg ish), while Amtrak tries to go in 50/mph ish range.

This causes them a lot of scheduling trouble.

But if you are willing to travel at the same speed as freight it would be a
lot easier to accommodate.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Passenger trains tend to travel faster than freight, true. But 25 MPH? No. Not
on major lines, anyway.

You can probably find statistics that give you a number that low (or even
lower), but I think they include dwell time in yards, not just road time.

~~~
ars
I sat in one that got stuck behind freight traffic (according to the
announcement).

25 MPH is what I remember, with short bursts of faster speed.

It was much faster before we got stuck behind the freight.

PS. The statistics I found actually said current average is 20!!

------
dsfyu404ed
Well that sure makes my pneumatic tired hobby seem financially sound.

------
seba_dos1
"Lokomotywa z ogłoszenia" :)

------
gullywhumper
The WSJ had a recent article about how sleeper trains are making a comeback
(might be paywalled):

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/dream-vacations-the-new-age-
of-...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/dream-vacations-the-new-age-of-sleeper-
trains-11553255489)?

------
Causality1
I have a difficult time caring about the demise of a hobby for the obscenely
rich.

