
Firefox: Not A Good Citizen on OS X Lion - alexknight
http://zerodistraction.com/blog/2012/4/28/firefox-not-a-good-citizen-on-os-x-lion.html
======
kijin
Firefox is not a good citizen on any OS other than Windows.

In Linux, the Firefox button becomes an awkward-looking upside-down tab in the
tab bar, because you're apparently not supposed to intrude into the sacrosanct
title bar. (What about Chrome?) It also takes quite a bit of tweaking on the
distributor's part to make Firefox look and behave like the rest of the OS
(e.g. icon theme and font anti-aliasing), though this has gotten better in
recent releases.

But most Apple apps like Safari and iTunes aren't good citizens on Windows,
either.

Anyway, I think we should have a bit of leniency on web browsers. Part of the
reason for the perceived incompatibility is that a web browser is not an
ordinary app. A web browser is an environment in which most people spend most
of their time. It's almost like an OS in itself, with its own UI paradigms
such as tabs and add-on bars. Therefore browser designers put in a lot of
effort trying to polish their UI exactly the way they want, and it's not easy
to reconcile that with the native UI of several different OSes. It'll take
time, especially since all the OSes are in the process of revolutionizing
their own UIs.

~~~
evmar
The Linux problem is a limitation of Linux. (I worked on some similar code in
Chrome, which only works 90% and is full of workarounds and hacks.)

------
callahad
For what it's worth,

1\. Lion/iOS-style scrollbars are currently enabled on the nightly builds of
the "UX" branch, and will hopefully be merged into the mainstream release
soon.

2\. Lion-native fullscreen landed in Firefox 14, which is the current "Aurora"
build. It will enter Beta in 6 weeks, or Stable in 12 weeks.

~~~
msujaws
Yes, all of the above is true as well as smooth scrolling will be enabled by
default in Firefox 13.

------
oinksoft
I'd just like to say that I'm very thankful Firefox has neither invisible
scrollbars nor inertial scrolling. F11 is full-screen in Firefox.

~~~
forgotusername
Adding to that, I've no problem whatsoever with Mozilla's choice to not
implement these (braindamaged without exception, IMHO) features, as these
choices are partially what drives me to use Firefox, and the only feedback
Apple might ever listen to with regard to _drunk scrolling_ and suchlike is
user uptake.

Here Firefox enables me to vote with my feet.

~~~
MrJagil
Friend, using terms like "braindamaged" is really not that constructive. I've
seen an uptake in these kinds of posts lately on HN, and I wish you would all
tone it down.

Just be polite, rational, constructive and helpful. Only lazy people turn to
these spiteful remarks.

~~~
nknight
Telling the hacker community not to use the term "braindamaged" is one of the
most braindamaged things I can think of.

~~~
srbravo1
It is sad that a large percentage of people who seek common interests can be
so dark to each other. Why does disrespect and self pride seem, at least in
the nerd culture today, to be tolerated by so many? I have been in
environments where it was cool to be a bully but where the stereotypical
computer scientist are known to have been bullied at some point in his/her own
life, I am surprised to find such negativity here. I know I shoot myself in
the foot when I decide to read the comments from the feeds but maybe I am just
looking for a bit of chat and thoughts from fellow people who share my
eagerness. I look for guidance and influence from people like the regular
viewers on HN.

You do not know it all. You started from somewhere. Your opinion is an
opinion. If you are more fortunate in your experience or knowledge then the
contributor above you, do good with it. These logical statements above should
be a mantra before submitting a comment anywhere online. The web can not be
dictated or controlled but a common culture and mass influence can make it a
happier place within its communities.

~~~
nknight
You are making many faulty assumptions, attacking a culture you clearly do not
understand in the least. To call something braindamaged in hacker culture is
well understood as a personal value judgement with certain connotations. It
has absolutely nothing to do with bullying, "darkness", or negativity.

If anything, it is you who is being a bully, barging in and telling us how we
should behave without even grasping who we are and how we are behaving now.

~~~
srbravo1
Hmm, I humbly admit I was ignorant with the terminology. Obviously I am not
deep in the culture you speak of. I am sorry that I pushed my opinion under
your comment. These thoughts have been building from other situations. I
should have seen this coming.

Maybe I "do not understand in the least". I personally still feel what I said
has some merit and was not hard to see that I meant to inspire positivity more
so then to come across as judgmental. I think you and me both know I was not
bullying you to be something you all are not. I say "all" because you spoke of
"we". If you are justified in saying "we" and can't relate/respect what I am
saying, then I don't think I want to be part of your circle.

------
jlawer
Firefox was never the best Cocoa (i.e. OSX) implementation of Gecko, Firefox
aims to be the best CROSS PLATFORM implementation of Gecko. Camino has always
been the OSX optimised browser, but unfortunately they don't have the same
level of support and they can't do as much as they would like.

While I have more then enough gripes about the mozilla project, this just
comes off whiney. Have you checked Bugzilla? Have you discussed on the Mailing
list? Is there a Request for enhancement? Is their code in the repo that is
about to drop in an upcoming release?

From memory the firefox UI is coded in XUL, so the actual changes are to the
XUL controls, which have to be made as close to identical between all
supported platforms. Not in the case of look, but in the scroll gradiant and
event chain.

While its easier to take pot shots from your blog and HN you could actually
help the situation by advocating it as a priority to the developers by talking
to them, by testing code and even contributing. People have already pointed
out that most of your complaints are already coming in later versions.

------
unwiredben
Wow, it seems like he read the release notes for Firefox 13 (now in beta) and
wrote a rant about how those features aren't in 12. See
<http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/13.0beta/releasenotes/>.

------
jentulman
That the UI additions are missing is a deal breaker for the author is fair
enough, we each like to use our machines our own way, but Lion is less than a
year old, and Firefox is not a small product, so it seems a bit harsh to call
out missing UI candy that is completely unrelated to the softwares core
purpose, displaying web pages well, after pointing out the amount of effort
that has just been put in to improving that core functionality.

Personally I went back to Snow Leopard as I think these very Lion features was
a step backward in usability for my tastes. I don't like the disappearing
scroll bars, and mission control is a poor replacement for spaces/expose.

------
tlrobinson
An aside: Lion's fullscreen support is awful. I have my TV hooked up to my
computer and can't fullscreen anything that uses Lion's fullscreen API.

[http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/17941/how-do-i-
run-...](http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/17941/how-do-i-run-an-app-
in-full-screen-mode-on-os-x-lion-on-my-second-monitor)

~~~
jasonlotito
Lion's fullscreen support is a security hazard as well. Leave something full
screen, close your laptop, and come back to it hours later, and you can open
up your laptop without it asking for a password.

Pretty sure that's not intended.

~~~
st3fan
I've never seen that. I use lion fullscreen mode all the time and i am very
certain that my macbook still asks for a password after waking up.

~~~
jasonlotito
I've had it happen to me several times. It's always been jarring. Last time it
happened, it was Preview that had been full screen.

------
avolcano
I have to say, while Chrome has a few issues on OSX, I was really impressed
with how quickly they added full screening, Lion-style scrollbars, elastic
scrolling, and surprisingly polished two-finger swipe gestures. Hopefully
Firefox will get up to speed soon.

~~~
pazimzadeh
I mostly agree, but I find Chrome's two-finger swipe gestures to be terrible.
It's really hard to "cancel" a swipe if you've already (accidentally) started
swiping.

~~~
wdewind
That doesn't really make any sense. The two finger swipe in chrome is the only
implementation of the two finger swipe I know of that gives you ANY
opportunity to cancel the swipe once it has started. You can also completely
control the swipe by not removing your fingers from the trackpad, unlike the 3
finger swipe, which is instantaneous.

~~~
pazimzadeh
I see that they've updated it since I last used Chrome. It's better but not
perfect, although that might just be a matter of getting used to it. I expect
to have to swipe longer before it goes back and I expect the same momentum
effect that is all over Lion.

I don't understand why they don't simply use Safari's default behavior, it's
not like Apple has a patent on physics and smooth animations.

------
jaykru
I find Firefox has much smoother scrolling for me on OS X, compared to Chrome.
The rubber band effect for me normally is quite a slowdown.

~~~
myko
The rubber band is terrible, I wish it would stay out of the desktop OS.

------
lis
That's generally the problem when multi-platform software wants to "feel" the
same on every platform. It just doesn't work. Mac users are used to a
different UI, so even if you think that you approach is better, just don't do
it. When it comes to usability, try to do it how everyone else developing for
the platform is doing it.

------
duhh1234
It's an opensource project run by a nonprofit.... nothing is stopping you from
contributing ... did you even file a bug report or look one up regarding this
issue?

not even apple has updated all of it's software to support these new
features.. hell they can't even get xcode to stop crashing constantly yet...

~~~
orbitingpluto
Oh to be young and think (or project that you think) you know everything!

(..says the old curmudgeon who realizes that despite all efforts to the
contrary, he's getting increasingly less knowledgeable percentage-wise of
what's out there. However you can't fault the kid for trying!)

------
nicalsilva
For what it's worth, the rubber band thing having a patent on it, I am not
sure shipping it in Firefox is only about implementing it. I do know sometimes
patches wait in bugzilla for legal approval, and I do know implementing
native-like features often involve much more work than most people think. It
makes me a bit sad to see that people judge the entire browsing experience in
term of how native it feels rather than how well standards are implemented and
what actual features are provided (not the look of a scrollbar, which is a
matter of taste and generates debates that don't interest me much). There is
some work in progress for more UI smoothness in firefox. Using xul instead of
native UI has its pros and cons, but reducing the dependencies between UI code
and the OS-specific APIS enables Firefox to be available to many platforms
which is valuable in my opinion. It looks to me like people in general prefer
to complain on blogs and comments rather than doing the same on bug trackers
were it is actually useful and where one can get feedback from the guys that
actually know about the stuff.

------
lawnchair_larry
Since fullscreen and disappearing scroll bars both suck, and inertial
scrolling appears to work fine for me, this article is moot.

~~~
droithomme
Amen brother. Preach it.

A parallel article could be written on how Firefox is the best browser because
careful attention has been paid not not ruining the user experience by
implementing widely acknowledged design errors in Lion.

------
dstarh
Unless I'm mistaking inertial scrolling has nothing to do with it bouncing
back specifically, it's inertial meaning having inertia, the tendency for
something in motion in this case tr window to stay in motion unless acted upon
by an external force. Bouncing when you reach the end would be a simulation of
elasticity not enertial

------
thought_alarm
I've followed Mozilla.org since the project was first announced in 1998, and
I've been a Mac OS X user since 2004.

Unfortunately, they've routinely shipped OS X versions of Firefox with show
stoppingly-bad performance and UI bugs, and they've been far too conservative
in addressing such issues. For years I rolled my own builds of Firefox just to
include patches for important bugs that had been left languishing in bugzilla.
(I see they finally fixed horizontal scrolling, only 7 years after two-finger
scrolling was first introduced. Nice.)

As soon as Safari was able to match Firefox's performance, which was about 5
years ago, I left Firefox behind for good. Firefox was always, and probably
still is, a fine browser on Windows, but the OS X version of Firefox is second
class and really only suitable for Firefox superfans.

------
kibwen
I'm curious if there are any statistics on what percentage of Firefox users
are on OSX.

Perhaps we can approximate. Here's Firefox's user feedback dashboard:

[http://input.mozilla.org/en-
US/?q=&product=firefox&v...](http://input.mozilla.org/en-
US/?q=&product=firefox&version=--&date_start=&date_end=)

According to this, it looks like 5% of Firefox users are on OSX (or at least
5% of the users who care enough to submit feedback). I've heard (anecdotally)
that Mozilla _is_ planning on supporting the features mentioned in the OP, but
perhaps it's just not a high priority due to the percentage of their total
users that it would benefit (of course, this is a circular argument).

------
jakeonthemove
As much as I hate to say it, Firefox is not that good on Windows either - I'm
kind of tired of it using 1.5 GB of RAM and lagging most of the time. If not
for the awesome Adblock and NoScript plugin and the AwesomeBar, I'd use Chrome
all the time...

------
netdog
wow, this page sets 20 cookies, loads 16 external javascripts, and has a 280kB
image file in the banner. Just to deliver 7 paragraphs of text.

------
bbrian
What bothers me most is that if I'm using multiple desktops in OS X, Firefox
is in all of them. There's no defence of this as a UX decision.

------
napolux
The only good browser for mac is chrome.

