
After 15 years of practice.. - InfinityX0
http://sivers.org/15-years
======
abstractbill
When people say "X is a gift, you were lucky to be born with it", they're
probably trying to give themselves an excuse to not put in the effort needed
to get good at that thing.

~~~
sahaj
unless you are a good 7' basketball player.

~~~
electromagnetic
7' tall basketball players are only good because the game is played
inefficiently. Shorter players have a distinct advantage when throwing
underarm and can get ridiculous score percentages. Tall players throwing
'properly' are taking a side-shot at the goal rather than confronting the
problem head on by going vertical.

Basketball is such a bastardised sport that height and speed are the dominant
skills at play in the sport. No accuracy is required when the majority of your
goals are scored by (using a soccer term) walking it into the goal. It's
pathetic and boring.

The entire point of the sport is that the goal is high to challenge players to
exhibit accuracy that is rarely routinely (and especially not consistently)
required in other sports. Yet that doesn't exist any more in the NBA it's
circus freaks putting balls through a hole instead of sportsmen exhibiting
great accuracy like an archer.

~~~
lanstein
Ok, I have to ask: When was the last time you watched basketball? Nobody
showing great accuracy? Ray Allen? Kobe Bryant?

------
zefhous
I think there's truth to this, but I also disagree strongly with the idea that
if you're not good at something you haven't practiced enough.

Especially in certain fields — music, design, and programming all fit I think
— there is a huge amount that many people just seem to get or not.

I have a degree in music, so I've seen a lot while I was in school. Yes,
_some_ people can work really hard and eventually get it, but I don't think
that's everyone.

Especially when it comes to ear training, I know a lot of people who have
tried really, _really_ hard, but can't seem to develop the skills. I've seen
this in many people, even with great teachers, resources, and tons of
practice. I think some people have a fundamental difference in how their minds
understand music.

I think this can be seen in the idea that certain programmers are 10x more
productive than others, and that most "programmers" can't really program at
all, even after years of school.

~~~
shin_lao
Anybody "normal" can reach a decent mastery at anything given the proper
amount of work.

Some people need less work than others because they learn faster.

However, more often than not, people who are very good at something threw an
incredible amount of time at it. An amount far greater than anybody is willing
to spare.

You're gifted when you reach levels that only few other human beings can.

When you "suck" at something, you're just not trying hard enough.

------
Sukotto
Three points

1) This sounds a lot like the "Deliberate Practice" espoused by the (imho
excellent) Study hacks blog
<http://calnewport.com/blog/?s=deliberate+practice>

2) Also similar to Steve Yegge's recommended approach to learning to type.
(another great read)

3) Is it just me or is the silvers.org site a gold mine of great ideas?

Like this, for example:

    
    
      My vision of the road to mastery:
      
      - start with the fundamentals
      
      - get a solid foundation fueled by the understanding of
        the principles of your discipline
      
      - expand and refine your repertoire, guided by your 
        individual predispositions
      
      - while keeping in touch, however abstractly, with what 
        you feel to be the essential core of the art
      
      What results is a network of deeply internalized, 
      interconnected knowledge that expands from a central, 
      personal locus point.
      
      When everyone at a high level has a huge amount of 
      (technical) understanding, much of what separates the 
      great from the very good is deep presence, relaxation of 
      the conscious mind, which allows the unconscious to flow 
      unhindered.
    

He gets a lot of his writing posted on HN. Do you think he deliberately
practices writing or is that just natural talent? After reading this story of
15 years to overnight success it really makes me wonder.

~~~
sivers
Thanks! That bit you quoted is from the book "The Art of Learning" by Josh
Waitzkin, so I can't take credit for it. Great book. Really inspiring.
<http://sivers.org/book/ArtOfLearning>

Writing good essays/articles is something else I really aspire to, and
definitely put a lot of work into. I've been studying my favorite essays by
Paul Graham, Harry Beckwith, Seth Godin, and even Robert Fulghum. Those are
the tops I've found in this short-form blog-length (under 2-minutes read-time)
format that I like.

No other motive than the feeling of wanting to share everything I've learned
before I die.

~~~
pavs
I just got introduced to your work from this blog post, and I have to say I
simply love this song:

<http://sivers.org/mp3/DEREK_SIVERS-Ready_to_Live-1997-01.mp3>

------
caryme
Like any instrument, technique plays an extremely important role in singing.
Poor intonation is less an indicator of a good voice and more of good
technique. Of course no one would criticize a girl who picked up a cello and
just started playing for just not being a cellist, but also no one would
advise her to simply practice alone. The best advice is for that girl to find
a _good_ teacher and get some lessons.

I find it interesting that Derek downplays the role of his teachers. He
mentions he took lessons with several teachers, but neglects to tell us
anything about them. I could not begin to describe my development as a singer
without discussing my teachers.

Yes, it takes practice to become a good singer, but any number of hours of
practicing poor technique won't do much good.

~~~
cowmoo
"Yes it takes practice to become a good singer, but any number of hours of
practicing poor technique won't do much good."

Yes, this is true and oft-repeated mantra on YC News. But it begs the
question, how does one practice the "proper" technique (I mean after all,
doesn't everyone want to follow the correct form of shooting hoops/strumming a
guitar chord, but most people don't have a dedicated shooting coach/guitar
teacher to watch their every move or they do know the right technique by heart
in theory but can't carry it out in practice for various reasons).

The best protip I've received in learning an instrument (and actually doing
anything) is when you are stuck at a particular exercise, move onto the next
hardest exercise anyways. When you stumble upon the simplest guitar lick on
the first page of a guitar book,you might say "are you crazy? I can't even
play the first exercise." But if you play the next hardest lick and stumble
upon it for a couple of days, then try to play a third lick even harder than
the second lick for a couple of days, and then go back to the very first lick.
You might find that you can now play it pretty well, or suck much less than
before.

Yes, practicing is all about hard work and all that, but it is also about
momentum and keeping things fresh and new. If it's not fun, you are doing
something wrong.

~~~
jobeirne
You're not using ``begs the question'' properly.

~~~
jimmyjim
What is with your style of quotation marks? I've seen them before, but I just
don't understand why anyone uses them. Care to explain, please?

~~~
b0b0b0b
tex makes them pretty

~~~
me2i81
Tex ain't here, he went home

------
lanstein
I've actually found that pitch and rhythm issues like this often come not from
a lack of ability, but from a phenomenon where the person hears what they
intend to hear, rather than what they're actually singing/playing.

Extremely focused, repeated work with a tape recorder will bridge the gap
between perception and reality in a hurry.

~~~
caryme
Also, in a phenomenon somewhat unique to singing, what you hear just isn't
what others hear. For example, sometimes people will modify their technique
such that their voice sounds very resonant to them, but externally the sound
doesn't carry. Sometimes in these cases, listening to a recording can be very
helpful, if not a bit shocking. One of the difficulties of learning to sing is
learning what good feels like rather than what good sounds like.

------
FalconNL
Interestingly, if you multiply 15 years by 365 days and the two hours a day
mentioned at some point in the article, you get 10,950 hours, which is
remarkably close to Malcolm Gladwell's claim from the book Outliers that it
takes 10,000 hours to become a superstar at something.

~~~
limist
Yes, and unlike singing, programming can be comfortably done for more than 2
hours a day, without much risk of long-term body/voice damage. :)

~~~
george_morgan
Although incorrect posture over 10,000 hours sounds like a recipe for RSI.

------
myth_drannon
I listened to his first and last songs and too me his voice sounds almost the
same (taking in consideration the age difference). I think it's partially our
self confidence that influences our talents. After 15 year he says, "Yeah, I
practiced so much, for SURE I'm much better!" and from now on he is the best.
He radiates confidence because he now knows he is good and people around him
feel it as well and think he is great. The moment your brain is free from
self-limitation you just fly , sadly for most humans it happens after so many
years .... C'est la vie...

------
jasonkester
Nice.

There's also something to be said for picking something you're naturally good
at an running with that. I, for example, had perfect pitch as a kid and with
no practice managed to find myself in the church choir doing solos. I suspect
that had I decided to follow up on it, I would have had an easier time than
the author making it into a career.

In contrast, I can't dance. And it's not from lack of trying. I've taken
classes (like college classes even), salsa lessons, you name it and I still
just plain suck. Like the author says, I'm sure I could stick with it for 15
years and get good, but shy of that I'm always going to suck at it.

Other datapoints for me include rock climbing (naturally good), surfing
(naturally bad, but on the 15 year path), basketball (naturally bad and gave
up early), and computer programming (naturally good and making a career of
it).

If you pick something you're naturally OK at and choose that as your focus, I
think you'll get a lot faster results than the author.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Interesting: Chinese music schools have > 90% perfect pitch students. American
music schools: 4% (same as population average)

------
adammichaelc
He's really good. <http://sivers.org/mp3/DEREK_SIVERS-
Ready_to_Live-1997-01.mp3>

~~~
hyperbovine
He definitely has the technical fundamentals down, no argument there.
Nevertheless, his vocal timbre and overall style don't appeal to me; he sounds
exactly like what he says he is: somebody with an average voice who learned to
sing well. I can think of a half dozen really jaw-dropping vocalists--the
people who make me rue my mediocre singing genes--who I am certain did not
work nearly as hard or as long to get where they are, yet are in every way
superior singers. Anyways, my only point is, yes, the deliberate practice meme
is really hot right now, but natural talent still counts for a lot. This is
especially true when it comes to singing, or anything that is governed by some
physical property you were born with.

~~~
josh33
And frankly, were it not for differences in talents and interests, the world
really would be a boring place. I've said it elsewhere, but it is the unique
combination of our talents that gives us the opportunity to contribute
something truly unique (and potentially valuable) to the world. I would argue
that Derek contributes more value to the world through fantastic writing and
the ability to capture truth from the world around him and illustrate it
through word than his music ever did. But that's just my perception, so maybe
my reality is different than his.

------
johngalt
Note how people went straight from assuming he "just didn't have singing
ability" to "you're lucky to be born with singing ability"

It's suprising how often years of hard work is trivialized as "luck" or
"inherent ability".

~~~
megablast
You see this a lot on tv, where people survive a plane crash and thank the
lord, rather than the pilot and engineers. Or are cured of cancer and thank
god, rather than the team of surgeons and years of hard working medical
scientists.

~~~
tomjen3
Or lies praying in a hospital.

Interestingly these people rarely, if ever, start taking cancer drugs in a
church.

------
iamwil
Everyone starts at different aptitudes, but it's hard work that makes up the
difference.

~~~
JeanPierre
No matter where you start, you have to work really hard to become the best.
Though it's a bit overused, the quote _"Winners never quit, and quitters never
win"_ does actually have a point: Never give up.

------
BRadmin
Every time I read Derek's blog I feel like I'm reading parables. So many cool
lessons about being pro-active and simply going after what you want.

------
ghshephard
What everyone fails to note is that in order to profit from these years of
practice, you do have to have a baseline ability in the endeavor that you are
trying to develop expertise.

I've never met a great programmer who couldn't grok something like pointers to
pointers with just a few exposures. Your mind is either wired that way or it
isn't. No amount of practicing is going to rewire it, no matter how hard (or
long) you try.

But, once you do pass the baseline - absolutely, practice does make perfect.

------
giardini
While I wouldn't care to listen to him sing very long, if he's satisfied with
15 years of practice then that's OK. Whatever floats your boat.

But there's no substitute for talent. Best of all is talent + training. Humans
are not _tabulae_ _rasae_ onto which anything may be written: they have
significant genetic differences which are expressed as different
talents/abilities. As a young boy, I could listen to music and extract and
replicate melodies and chords easily (learn "by ear"), something my sister
desired but could not do without a decade of intense music instruction and
practice.

------
rchi
It's all relative. Our perception of whether a performance is good is
dependent on other performances we've heard. 10000 hours only works because
most people don't do it.

------
CapitalistCartr
One of my treasured childhood memories was getting my first library card. I
remember my mother teaching me to read when I was four because I asked her to.
I remember devouring every book at home, and in the children's section of the
library. I could only read the adult section while Iw as there, so I spent
long days doing just that, until I turned 14 and could check them out. I
remember vividly Ben seeing em reading the dictionary in elementary school,
laughing, and telling the whole class.

In high school, I remember how many students asked me for help with specific
challenges, and I was happy to help for free. I remember discussing with my
fellow nerds doing experiments at home that easily exceeded what the school
taught.

None of these memories will surprise the audience here. Or that so many people
over my life have told me how lucky I am to just be born smart. But the lesson
it took me the longest to learn was to value my thinking skills and ignore
those who make less of them. And to charge for their use, of course. Just
because it come easily to me now, doesn't make it worthless.

------
themlgd1
You know, I'm all for practice, I'm all for hard work trumps talent etc.

But this is a really bad example. I promise i'm not trolling. I actually went
to his archives and listened to his music. I hate to say this, but the guy
can't sing. On top of that, the improvement from as he says his "early days"
to the latest stuff (1999), is marginal.

I think his point still stands. He just uses a bad example.

------
Tycho
I think use of a microphone and recording equipment makes a world of
difference compared to 'live' singing where you really project your voice.

I mean once I decided to start singing Dean Martin songs during a game of Halo
3 online... and the people on my team kept saying it was brilliant and
insisted I continue. (in real life i'm an awful singer, although pitch is not
a problem)

------
elviejo
This is simply an expression of "Deliberate Practice"
[http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/how-
talente...](http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/how-talented-is-
this-kid/#more-1777)

"""A while ago, we wrote a New York Times Magazine column about talent — what
it is, how it’s acquired, etc. The gist of the column was that “raw talent,”
as it’s often called, is vastly overrated, and that people who become very
good at something, whether it’s sports, music, or medicine, generally do so
through a great deal of “deliberate practice,” a phrase used by the Florida
State psychologist Anders Ericsson and his merry band of fellow scholars who
study expert performers in many fields.

As we wrote, there are at least three key elements to deliberate practice:

1\. Setting specific goals. 2\. Obtaining immediate feedback. 3\.
Concentrating as much on technique as on outcome.""""

------
srgseg
I've long been fascinated with _why_ people decide to do their 10,000 hours of
practice.

Many people I know have talked the talk but then never really had the
motivation to walk the walk and put in the effort.

Any ideas on what gives people the internal motivation and strength to follow
through with practice in the first place?

~~~
trafficlight
It's not a conscience decision. People put the time in because they genuinely
enjoy what they are doing.

My thing is bowling. I've been doing it since I was 6 (I'm 26 now). I went to
the bowling alley as often as possible, I'd ride my bike down after school
whenever I had money. In high school, I bought monthly memberships and would
bowl 10-15 games a day, every day. I just couldn't get enough of it.

The past few years I've been averaging in the 220s, which is great, but not
professional great yet. In the next few years, when I'm more financially
stable, I'm going to try out the PBA Tour, if for nothing else but the
experience.

I bowl so much that I developed bone spurs in my elbow that I had surgically
removed a couple of weeks ago. I haven't bowled now for over 4 months, which
is the longest break I've ever taken.

Moral of the story is, you don't decide to practice something, you do it
because you can't imagine not doing it.

~~~
srgseg
I wonder if there are any particular initial conditions that led you to
genuinely enjoy it.

For example, a lucky streak or parental encouragement might have led you to
make "I'm awesome at bowling" part of your identity, creating a virtuous
circle of getting better and being proud and wanting to get even better.

If you had a friend or older brothre that had been doing it for 6 months that
was with you when you first tried bowling, you might have decided that you
simply weren't any good at it, and therefore why waste your time practising
something you're clearly no good at?

I wonder how much of what we all decide to dedicate our lives to is simply
down to random initial conditions.

------
emehrkay
I've always felt that there is no "God-given talent" or even talent, but
simply understanding. I came to this conclusion when people would ask me to
draw something for them in art class and I'd explain how to do it and they'd
be able to draw it themselves.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
There are savants, undeniably. Some who cannot even have understanding
(metally challenged) yet still perform.

------
mhd
So, singer-hackers, does the 80/20 rule apply to this, too? I'm not too
interested in becoming a great singer, but I'd certainly practice more guitar
playing (and would dare to grab it while sitting at a campfire) if I wouldn't
be scared of my own voice...

(No, karaoke is straight out. Compared to me, Fran Drescher is the Queen of
the Night. I think I actually sounded better _while_ my voice was breaking.)

------
10ren
I listened to the first song. The arrangement really lets it down (guess it's
a demo), and I think the verse backing is identical to part of the James Bond
theme. But the singing is amazing (which was the point), and I couldn't help
but dance to the chorus.

I included my negatives so I could conclude: it's easy to criticize, but hard
to make people dance.

------
brazzy
Am I the only one who gets an XML parsing error (using Firefox 3.6.3)?

Page specifies content-type "application/xhtml+xml", might even be valid
XHTML, but contains some spurious characters (1e773) at the beginning.

~~~
sivers
Ooops. Sorry. Fixed now!

------
cianestro
Different learning models (D. is most relevant to this post):
<http://www.mudrashram.com/enhancelearning1.html>

------
jessor
Reminds me of Malcom Gladwell's 10,000 hours rule (he wrote about it in
Outliers).

------
stretchwithme
it amazes me that it seems virtually every skill can be practiced and improved
if one is dedicated.

is there nothing human beings can't do? yes, but that's why we make machines

