
The Vietnam War Was Already Lost, but I Had to Go Anyway - ForHackernews
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/10/us/the-vietnam-war-was-already-lost-but-i-had-to-go-anyway.html
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Spearchucker
I was conscripted at age 18. I'm a lot older now and it blows my mind more and
more at how war and veterans and victories and leaders are celebrated and
therefore... legitimized.

The masses are made to think fighting a war (soldier) for someone else (the
president and the military industrial complex) is an honorable thing to do.

Because patriotism. Which is bullshit. We share this little blue ball in space
with all of these people who scare us, whose ideals we ridicule. And people
who love and live and dream like we do.

There is no honor in violence. Even less in oppression. Regardless of
justification.

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mc32
The problem is there are those who don’t share your idealism and would take
this position and take full advantage of it.

Vietnam might have been a boondoggle of a war. But it certainly better than
had we folded and let the dominoes fall in many places where there was some
discontent but not nearly as much as there would be with Soviet style
governance.

Certainly there were smarter ways to wage the war, but short of taking over
the corrupt local govt there wasn’t much else we could do. We suggested land
redistribution and other forms of reform, as we implemented successfully in
South Korea but the South Vietnamese wouldn't have it.

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ahelwer
Are you suggesting that the US government was right to indiscriminantly bomb a
small nation halfway around the world for self-determining into a style of
governance disliked by the US?

Or are you suggesting the North Vietnamese were a tool of the Chinese or
Russians? In which case - like Robert McNamara - you would be told by the
former foreign minister of Vietnam that you should read a history book[0],
because you have no knowledge of the region's history.

The Vietnam war was a disgrace waged for no valid reasons, accomplishing
nothing except ending the lives of millions of Vietnamese people. To defend it
in this day, with all the benefit of hindsight, is utterly beyond the pale and
should rightfully be compared to supporting other historical atrocities such
as the genocide of Native Americans.

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHdMeHxDg90&t=2m8s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHdMeHxDg90&t=2m8s)

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ioufjiosufisd
Using your argument, how exactly do you know better than the Vietnamese in the
South (minus the Viet Cong) who wanted the US's help to combat the North's
aggression? They literally fought alongside the US.

~~~
ahelwer
It was a civil war, they weren't going to turn down military assistance.

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Ididntdothis
When you read about WW2 you see the same thing in the German side and also
sometimes on the Allied side. Generals and politicians knew that the battle
was lost but instead of giving up they made the front soldiers fight to a
certain death. That while the leaders who made decisions lived in splendor.

Same with the current American wars. When they invaded Iraq in 2003 the
military was understaffed and it took years for the leaders to admit that and
adjust. So solders were dying while at the same time a lot of defense
companies made good profits and there were tax cuts for higher incomes.

I always wonder how wars would go if as soon as a country was at war,
leadership had to live in conditions like a front soldier and nobody would be
allowed to make a profit from war related business. I bet we would have much
less wars.

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DougN7
If everyone had to suffer everything that they inflicted on others, we’d soon
live in a near utopia. One can dream...

~~~
dredmorbius
Or we'd select for masochists.

~~~
SuoDuanDao
Not sure why you're getting downvoted, it seems like a perfectly plausible
outcome to me.

~~~
dredmorbius
Inspired by a "what could possibly go wrong" moment.

Selection incentives are a real beast.

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Synaesthesia
AJ Muste:

“The problem after a war is with the victor. He thinks he has just proved that
war and violence pay. Who will now teach him a lesson?”

Source: [https://chomsky.info/196709__/](https://chomsky.info/196709__/)

~~~
whatshisface
That quote doesn't really apply in Vietnam, where both sides had such heavy
losses that nobody would ever want to repeat it again.

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renox
The loss are highly unevenly distributed.. Weapon sellers, equipment providers
makes a lot of money during wars..

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blaser-waffle
Bingo. That uneven distribution is why them Yankees seem to be fine with all
these wars.

The World Wars brought violence directly to the Asians and Europeans,
devastating Europe from London to Moscow, and all over Asia. Rich and poor got
it, good and hard, in their on backyards.

Vietnam devastated... Vietnam. It was an economic blackhole for the US --
ditto for Iraq and Afghanistan -- but the average American is driving larger,
nicer cars then ever, while living in comfy McMansions. Northern Virginia and
Southern Maryland (Washington DC suburbs) are wealthier than ever -- all Top
10 richest counties in the US. They don't feel this pain, and probably never
will, save for the small handful of volunteers shipped to Iraq/Afgan/etc.

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deogeo
I think it's highly dubious to suggest that the average American is better off
due to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is as the post you replied to said
- the weapons sellers make money, while the rest of Americans pay them through
taxes.

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benjaminbrodie
War does not happen because of any cold, calculating, sinister motive, it
happens because of (fear of) boredom. Peace is boring, war is exciting, and
gives people a sense of purpose (do you know that suicide rate is _way_ down
during war time?) and a chance to be part of something eternal. This is why
history is to such a large extent the history of wars. Because that's what
capture our morbid interest. This is why war, conflict and violence dominate
movies and TVs and fiction.

The effect of boredom on a large scale in history is often underestimated. It
is the main cause of war, revolutions, electoral surprises, etc.

~~~
ufmace
I don't know that I entirely believe this, but I think there might be
something to it.

