
Pigeon.ly, a Startup Focused on Serving the U.S. Prison Population, Joins YC - doppp
http://techcrunch.com/2015/03/24/pigeon-ly
======
cubano
I think this...ANY...effort to bring modern IT services to inmates/convicts is
terribly overdue and applaud this effort with all my heart. Convicts (their
preferred label, not mine) are treated worse than animals in many cases.

I spent 22.5 months in the Florida DOC system, and did hard time with the
nastiest of them. I built out a simple single-user DB (using Access, what
else?) system for the law library at Gulf CI in the panhandle that allowed
lightning-fast referencing of case law and cites.

This was 11 years ago, and IT and web interest was big, but nowhere near where
it is now, so I was amazed at the interest so many fellow convicts had in my
work, and I tried my best to teach every single one of them what I knew and to
maintain and extend my work.

It truly felt like God's work at the time.

A lot of "lifers" (people with life sentences, with no apparent chance of
release) hung out in the law library, working on their cases for years, and
these peoples were so grateful for the work I did...the common refrain was "no
one will ever work as hard as you can when it comes to your freedom", and
almost all this law library crowd knew way more about the legal system than
the highest paid lawyers I've known and used.

They were hackers in the truest sense of the word.

Sometimes, it was hard to reconcile the charges I saw with the people I lived
and worked with, I'll be honest, but as I used to say, one or two (really) bad
hours/days do not always make a person "bad".

[edits]

~~~
nickalewis
First, much respect to you for getting out and trying to help. I admire that a
TON. Especially because i'm sure you know firsthand the difference it can
make.

I'm hoping my work with Penmate
([http://penmateapp.com](http://penmateapp.com)) can help improve the library
as well. In addition to helping keep families connected, we really want to
improve the resources inmates have in prison, in particular books, magazines
and learning resources. I'll be blogging more about it soon, definitely know
what you mean here.

~~~
jamesfisher
From your site:

> Over 2 million people are effected by mass incarceration in the United
> States.

You probably mean _affected_.

~~~
nickalewis
And now... its been _corrected_ ;) Thank you!

------
tswartz
Planet Money just did a podcast on Pigeon.ly.

[http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2015/03/13/392862778/episode-...](http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2015/03/13/392862778/episode-610-the-
prisoners-solution)

Fascinating to listen to the founder talking about the difficulty of starting
a business as a former convict. Its ironic that because he was in prison he
best understands the target market, however being in prison meant banks and
other investors viewed him and his business negatively.

(edit: Planet Money did the podcast on Pigeon.ly, not another company)

~~~
YokoZar
Planet Money's podcast was about this very company -- they just changed their
name. It's mentioned somewhere midway through the episode.

~~~
tswartz
Oh, I must have missed that. Good for Frederick. Their new business of
providing prison local phone numbers for families out of state to use was
genius. That probably saves inmates so much money in long distance calls. I'd
guess that the vast majority of inmates are incarcerated far from their home
and family.

~~~
dublinben
The concept of an expensive "long distance call" has been eradicated in every
other aspect of life. It's too bad that prisoners and their families are being
taken advantage of by the service providers here.

~~~
nocman
Actually that's not entirely true. There are a lot of places in the U. S. at
least that still have very poor to no cell phone coverage, but do have
landlines. In most of these places, calling to anywhere but the area around
the nearest town is a long distance call (with a commonly 7 - 12 cent per
minute charge on top of the monthly local phone access charges) -- unless you
don't consider that expensive. Believe me it can add up quickly.

------
telecuda
Reading this just moments after shredding a prison map, putting a failed
product attempt of mine on the shelf.

The idea was to provide a texting kiosk for prisoners to SMS friends and
family.

Building the technology MVP to run an iMessage-like application on a tablet
was the easy part. Getting prisons interested in making a few pennies per SMS
- also easy.

Why did it fail? (why did we stop short?)

\- The jails required hardware that, "cannot be turned into a weapon." Phone
handsets are used as hammers and ripped from walls, so much that these came
about
[http://media.columbian.com/img/photos/2014/08/25/257871_A_Po...](http://media.columbian.com/img/photos/2014/08/25/257871_A_Pod_118_2.jpg)

\- Manufacturing and installing "safe" kiosks required for our app, like
[http://www.talton.com/images/kiosk_phone.jpg](http://www.talton.com/images/kiosk_phone.jpg)
was a costly proposition.

\- Internet access and power. Consider weak-or-no data signal, and ethernet &
power that must be drilled through thick concrete walls.

\- Existing jail phone systems with the hardware already installed are
protective of their business and were not willing to put our software on their
devices.

\- Integrating with existing canteen systems (a prisoner's bank account) was
also complicated. There aren't exactly APIs for that.

\- Lastly, and I found this to be most interesting, in our discussion of beta
testing with certain prisoners was deemed a bad idea, citing that those who
have special access become targets for other inmates.

I loved Hutson's Shutterfly-like photo service when I first read about it,
since it improved a prisoner's quality of life without introducing the
technology hurdles above. Amazing founder story and product.

After my own experience, I'm even more impressed reading that Pigeon.ly is
handling over 2 million minutes per month and would be interested to hear the
"how we did it" story on that one some day.

~~~
tmosleyIII
I've installed quite a few of the existing solutions in quite a few prisons. I
think the biggest factor that you pointed out is the existing provider.

Currently, there are only a handful of major players that really offer
services in corrections. They are all currently trying to turn into the
Apple/Google/Microsoft of corrections. So when you are trying to offer SMS
services, they already have those services bundled. Along with video
visitation, commissary, grievance reporting (kites), inmate phones and just a
whole list of other services.

If you are doing an application for a tablet device then you wouldn't need the
steel inmate proof case. Quite a few of the current tablet solutions are see
through plastic.

The best way to get your messaging solution into prisons is to piggyback on
other solutions. There are quite a few companies with solutions that are
running around trying to throw what they have on as many platforms as
possible. The key is to build a platform and have it to where it runs your
messaging app.

Another thing with some of the current messaging solutions in the corrections
market is that they will charge the price of a stamp for messages.

If installation inside of a prison is another hurdle, there are companies that
you can work with on that.

I was dealing with this for about 5 years and have a whole bunch more to say
about the opportunities but I'll just stop here.

~~~
nickalewis
I'd love to pick your brain about the existing prisons you've worked with. I'm
working on a new project soon w/ Penmate that I'm currently doing a bit of R&D
on. If you've got time to chat, can you shoot me an email at
nick[at]penmateapp.com?

------
TimMeade
First I want to put upfront that I work for Millicorp, who owns and operates
ConsCallHome.com for the last 7 years, partially a competitor of Pigeon.ly

We think it’s fantastic that Pigeon.ly is going to YC. Every company that
strives to help in this area helps reduce recidivism and even more importantly
allows families to communicate with their loved ones. The more sunshine on the
subject the better.

This has been an ongoing battle for inmates for the last 10+ years. Recently
the FCC has brought rate regulation to the prison pay phone providers, but as
part of that they require some pretty significant security requirements. A
little much to go in here, but the declaratory ruling where the FCC allows
companies like Pigeon.ly and ConsCallHome.com to operate require enhanced
security to be implemented as part of the service which allows the inmates
families to save on the calls. It was a four year battle against some very big
companies to help get the first part of inmate phone reform accomplished, the
second and final piece of reform before the FCC still has still not been ruled
upon.

There are still areas and jurisdictions who are not following the FCC rulings.
I hope everyone who sees this will reach out and learn more about this ongoing
issue and this unfair tax on those who can afford it the least.

For more information on the security aspects, the best FCC document:
[http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2013...](http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2013/db0926/DA-13-1990A1.pdf)

[http://www.ConsCallHome.com](http://www.ConsCallHome.com)

------
NaitJones
I know Frederick and am very glad to see that he's making progress. Many don't
understand how much social disconnection to the outside world contributes to
recidivism and even to social degeneration. It's a problem because its hard
for the people who love these inmates to keep them abreast of their lives
easily. This product is likely to change this issue in a major way.

~~~
nickalewis
Not to mention the exorbitant costs placed on inmate's families as well.
That's the one part of the TC headline that nerves me a bit. This isn't just
meant to serve the prison population -- It's the entire family unit thats
grossly effected, which certainly contributes to recidivism. Change is needed.

------
nickalewis
I love seeing this problem tackled in YC! It's a personal issue thats effected
my family & community as well, so much so that I've been focusing on helping
try and solve it with Penmate (penmateapp.com). Seeing YC take interest in
this speaks volumes, it's extremely motivating.

To the Pigeon.ly team -- If there's anyway I can help, lets get in touch. This
definitely is a problem that needs to be solved. Best of luck!

~~~
arfliw
Site looks really good. Have you gotten much traction?

~~~
nickalewis
Thanks! I spent a lot of time thinking about UX, so that means a lot (note:
there's a full mobile version available at
[http://m.penmateapp.com](http://m.penmateapp.com)) We've started allowing
families to send a free letter and photos last week so that's helped quite a
bit.

------
Erikun
NPR's Planet Money podcast had a show about Hutson and Pigeon.ly, well worth
listening too. [http://n.pr/1FZPCvw](http://n.pr/1FZPCvw)

~~~
antr
I really liked this Planet Money episode, Pigeonly's story is quite
inspirational, both the founder's story, and the market it serves.

------
hydrogen18
How depressing is it that the US prison population has become so large there
are industries around not just the running of prisons, but the needs of the
inmates themselves?

The US seems to be completely OK with locking people up for anything and
everything.

~~~
fapjacks
If by "the US" here you mean "the US government", then yes. Otherwise, no,
most people in the United States in fact do see a problem with our enormous
prison population. If the prison population per capita is so much higher than
it is in other countries (and it is), most Americans can recognize that this
is indicative of a problem with the justice system much more than a problem
with the American people.

~~~
SwellJoe
And, yet, "tough on crime" politicians do remarkably well, particularly in
polls on issues related to crime.

~~~
trhway
add to that that the most powerful union in pretty much any state is the
prison guards union... The union's interest is obvious. Just several days ago
heard on the radio about NY prison guard union opposing reform which would
decrease the number of situations where juniors are charged as adults.

------
untilHellbanned
Pigeon.ly is a great idea.

One question though, is this the same startup that didn't pay the dev shop
that built their website? Can't find those link anymore, but remember this was
a big deal some time ago.

My apologies if I'm remembering incorrectly.

~~~
rday
I'm interested to see what others say here. I commented on this type of
activity over the weekend, saying you shouldn't make it public.

Now we get to watch. Does anyone care? Will all of us freelancers have to
start requesting full payment, by check, upfront?

Or was this all sorted out already, and the details simply weren't posted to
HN?

~~~
smt88
My contracts are prepared by a real lawyer who specialized in software
contracts. They have long and detailed descriptions of how the quality of the
work is assessed, what happens if it's not up to the client's standards, what
happens if it's behind schedule, etc. etc.

"_____ will write software for ______ that does ______" is a valid contract,
if you both sign it. The problem (and the reason that you hire a lawyer) is
that it doesn't explain what happens if there's a disagreement or dispute
somewhere in the process.

Pigeon.ly and the contractor both erred if they didn't sign a comprehensive
contract. They both also erred by hanging their dirty laundry in a public
place.

If Pigeon.ly still had a legal issue with this, I'm sure YC would have either
A) not invested or B) forced them to resolve it.

------
nerdy
I tried to open the doc for their job posting[1] before they opened it, it was
locked... so I decided to look at their site.

Load the page and you're met with: "Technology products for those who need it
most. Discover what Pigeonly solves for you."

Who needs it most? Hmm... the blind? Deaf? Poor? Homeless?

The only other hint (without scrolling) is in the title, another veiled
reference: "Pigeonly builds technology products for the overlooked and
underserved"

Is this the best way to introduce prospective customers or future employees to
the product? It sounds very dispassionate for such a benevolent cause.

Consider being more direct about the goal of helping families connect with
incarcerated loved ones. The current approach is something between meek and
embarrassed. You need to tell people in no uncertain terms what you do, don't
expect them to scroll and read to find out.

Why not just come out and say something like "Helping families keep in touch
with their loved ones during incarceration"

[1]
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SCrkYMutodHHuVPOZt32fDBh...](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SCrkYMutodHHuVPOZt32fDBhkweXTht8KjMvC-
xfoJ0/edit?usp=sharing)

~~~
nowarninglabel
You are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Pigeonly has a stated goal
of serving more than just the prison population and the statements on their
site reflect that. If you want to know more about their products then you
should go go the product websites themselves[1] (that is where their customers
will be looking.

[https://www.fotopigeon.com/](https://www.fotopigeon.com/)
[https://www.telepigeon.com/](https://www.telepigeon.com/)

------
anigbrowl
Good on Michael Siebel and YC (and everyone else mentioned in the article) for
supporting Hutson. Companies like JPay and Securus are awful, awful businesses
that prey on the families of incarcerated people.

There's a lot of evidence to that visitation and a reliable social network are
key factors in improving outcomes for paroled and released prisoners, and
lowering the rates of recidivism. Anything that makes it easier to maintain
relationships between people in prison and those outside the prison who love
them pays of a huge social dividend. We really need to reverse the trend of
recent years towards making visitation and other forms of prisoner contact
much more expensive and difficult in the name of 'security.'

------
ikeboy
What do they provide in phone service that Google Voice doesn't already do for
free? Google will give you a local number and forward it to specific phones
for free, and I don't see why someone would use a paid service over that.

~~~
arfliw
Think of the demographic here. They are not techies.

~~~
ikeboy
Can _I_ make money reselling GV's services? I could easily put together a
system that made it very easy to set up a GV forwarding number and charge for
that.

~~~
mejari
If you can find an underserved market that would benefit from such a service
then yes, you quite clearly could make money doing that. I'm not sure what
you're getting at.

~~~
ikeboy
Well, I could ask why Pigeon needed to develop their own system instead of
piggybacking on GV. I could also ask why nobody else tried offering GV setup
as a service, if the alleged difficulty of setting it up was great enough to
create a market for Pigeon.

~~~
mejari
Why nobody else tried offering an existing solution to a new market? Is that a
serious question? That exact thing happens all the time and has made many
companies very successful. Hell, the site you're on right now isn't exactly
revolutionary (user-content link aggregator with commenting system), but it
found a target market in technically minded people and it has brought value to
those people. Would you ask why people use Hacker News instead of Reddit or
Digg?

And I don't know if they did develop their own system or are wrapping an
existing VOIP solution, I didn't see it mentioned specifically.

~~~
ikeboy
It sounded like they were using their own system.

If a new site opened up that offered exactly what Reddit does, but wrote their
own code from scratch, (and charged), I would also ask what they're bringing
to the table over Reddit, what features they have that reddit doesn't, and
would criticise them for not reusing old code that did what they wanted if
they couldn't show me any better features.

~~~
mejari
I guess I'd ask again, do you critique Hacker News for this?

It is definitely not a new idea to reuse existing ideas, even if you don't
reuse existing code, to provide previously unserved/underserved markets with
already existing services/products, nor is it a new idea to charge for it. I
honestly don't know what you're getting at. Do you think they should provide
this service for free because others do? Should customers just be smarter and
know that Google Voice exists? What exactly do you find is wrong about this
situation?

------
danso
About a couple years ago, the NYT published this fascinating article about
Sendapackage.com, which it billed as "The Cellblocks' Amazon"

[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/nyregion/sendapackage-
bill...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/nyregion/sendapackage-bills-itself-
as-new-yorks-inmate-superstore.html)

Sendapackage was created by a former inmate, and its story struck me as a
great example of a promising niche that is in plain sight, yet only a member
of that niche would go through the work to make it a business:

> Though it might surprise many who have no experience with prison, sending
> packages to loved ones doing time can be, as thousands of local families
> know, a Kafkaesque process. Beyond the hassle of going to several stores to
> assemble a package, and then having to take it to the post office or UPS, is
> navigating a welter of rules governing what is allowable.

> The New York State Department of Corrections and Community Supervision
> publishes a list, currently more than 20 pages long, of who can send what,
> and how, and what is permitted and what is not. Food cannot contain poppy
> seeds; emery boards must be “nonmetallic”; boxer shorts and briefs must be
> of a solid color only.

> “I thought there had to be a better way,” said Chris Barrett, Sendapackage’s
> founder, who seems to have discovered that way on the Internet. The items
> that Mr. Barrett’s service sells online (as well as through its catalog)
> have all been chosen in advance to adhere to the extensive directives put in
> place for gifts by the corrections department. His selection is
> comprehensive and diverse enough that the company bills itself as “New
> York’s inmate superstore.”

Not taking away from Pigeon.ly's announcement, just happy to see another
business in this underserved, neglected niche (not sure how sendapackage.com
is doing as I've never yet had the need to use it)...any service that makes it
easy to navigate the data of the prison system is an overall net benefit to
the public, as it impresses the need upon the system to provide this data.

Edit: to reference another NYT article: "Out of Trouble, but Criminal Records
Keep Men Out of Work" [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/business/out-of-
trouble-bu...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/business/out-of-trouble-but-
criminal-records-keep-men-out-of-work.html)

Given the lede paragraphs of the OP, I thought Pigeon.ly would also deal with
the problem of getting released inmates onto their feet and connected to jobs
and resources...that seems orthogonal to their current products but seems like
it could naturally grow from their network of inmate/relative contacts.

------
sstradling
I like this. I would love to see it expanded to work for migrant families
(maybe also a less extortionate method for sending remittances back home) too.

~~~
Kalium
Depends on where they want to send the remittance _to_. You're not going to
get that for places like Somalia.

~~~
icebraining
Why not? Somalia already receives $1.3B/year in remittances, so clearly it can
be done. Maybe it's already as cheap as it can be, but maybe not.

~~~
Kalium
Al-Shabaab.

------
tiffanyricks
I am TORN because I love that YC is funding African American founders. I love
the traction that the company has and that the team is solving a real problem.
BUT I hate how it feeds into a stereotype that all black men are criminals. It
is exhausting how hard we have to work to get others to see blacks in a
different light.

~~~
nickalewis
How do you feel it feeds the stereotype

~~~
tiffanyricks
The article has the black CEO, Frederick, dressed in all black with gold
chains and talks about him selling drugs. The article leads with the
stereotype and not what makes the company unique. I believe we need more
positive images of black men. Again, let me say I love the work that CEO and
Pigeon is doing but I do not like they way this article portrayed him because
it is perpetuating the stereotype that all black men are drug dealers and
thugs.

~~~
nickalewis
I didn't see the image, thats helps me understand what you meant more, I see.
I'm particularly sensitive to this because as a "young black male in tech"
myself i've had to navigate around some the bias, though when I read the
article I didn't get the feeling it added to the stereotype. I am excited to
see YC involved with more minority founders though, so TC article aside,
_hopefully_ this leads to more.

------
diminoten
The article touches on it a bit, but I wonder what kind of value a company as
mature as Pigeon.ly is going to get from YC.

Not saying it'll be lower than others, just probably different.

------
juddlyon
This is a good reminder that tech is about improving people's lives, not the
latest NoSQL-Node-React-NextShit-OMGYouDontUseThisYet. Sometimes I need to
remind myself.

------
wiseleo
Remember meeting these visionary founders a few years ago. Great product.
Looking forward to seeing what will happen after YC. :)

------
pigeonly
It has been a little bit crazy over the past couple of days but I just wanted
to say thanks for all the support. \- Frederick.

------
roycehaynes
Glad to see this news, Fredrick. Keep pushing!

------
m3mnoch
now, someone just needs to submit a pull request to stripe for accepting
cigarettes as payment.

------
brandonlipman
I love this concept!

