
Trump suspends H1B, H4 visas till year end - 7d7n
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/trump-suspends-h1b-h4-visas/articleshow/76519657.cms
======
arugulum
I will repost my quick immigration quiz, for Americans/others who may be
unfamiliar with what the typical visa process is for an immigrant:

1\. An international student graduates at the top of their class in Stanford
in CS, and goes to work for a tech company. What visa do they use?

The correct answer is F1 (OPT) for one year, with OPT STEM extension for 2
extra years, while they apply for H-1B. If they weren't a STEM major,
regardless of their actual role, they have a single year to apply for H-1B,
with a ~30% chance of success by lottery, before being asked to leave the
country. Regardless of their qualifications.

2\. Instead of staying in tech for their career, they work for a year in a
tech firm, then go to MIT for CS grad school. They perform excellently, having
many publications under their name, doing several industry internships at
Microsoft/Google labs. They then get accepted to a tenure track Assistant
Professor position at Columbia. What visa do they apply for?

Still H-1B.

My understanding is that the latest executive order includes several
exemptions, but I still want to emphasize how widely used and important H-1B
is as an channel for introducing talent into the US.

~~~
throw345hn
If they have a number or publications as you say, they may be eligible to
apply for O-1 visa. I know a couple of people who received it and (in my
opinion) got it for less than what you may think of as good technical merit

~~~
saisundar
Well O 1 visas not dual intent though. In order to actually obtain permanent
residency, you would still need to move to a h1b.

There are several valid reasons to seek permanent residency - which I don't
want to dive into here or moralize.

Just wanted to call out again that O 1 is a dead end.

~~~
baby
Not true. To my knowledge no visa is dual intent in theory but it never end up
mattering in practice.

~~~
FiloSottile
H1-B and L-1 are dual intent and it matters to travel with a pending
Adjustment of Status.

~~~
baby
Thanks for the correction. But again it rarely matters in practice.

~~~
FiloSottile
In practice it means that if you file for a green card while on O-1 status
there will be 4-8 months during which you absolutely can't travel.

~~~
baby
Ah, maybe I'm missing some subtleties. I was referring to "you're not supposed
to have intent to immigrate on a X visa", which never seemed to matter as I
personally applied for H1-B and a greencard while on a J1

------
zaptheimpaler
This announcement means anyone who planned on beginning work under an H1B soon
after perhaps months of job seeking and waiting for H1B approvals is suddenly
shit out of luck. Anyone about to be granted a green card after years on the
wait list is shit out of luck. Another HN'ers comment about their sisters
Irish boyfriend who now can't move and leaves their family living in different
continents is already one example of all the life plans this kind of change
disrupts.

They have been making these sorts of life changing policy decisions at the
drop of the hat for years now - no notice, no coherent long term plan
whatsoever, only a year old tweet from Trump promising reforms. Even if you
have spent 5 or 10 years in the country studying, working, paying taxes,
building friends & family in the US, you have no more stability or value to
the government than a fresh immigrant.

The constant instability of your entire life as an immigrant is not worth
putting up with. Might as well go somewhere else - in most places you get
points based immigration and a STABLE visa & path to citizenship that won't
fall out from under you.

~~~
bmitc
I would like to provide a personal account as to how this has affected me. I
am a U.S. citizen, and these draconian, ineffective, and political
grandstanding policies have drastically changed my life. In short, I may need
to leave my immediate family behind, my job, and restart in another country,
almost by force because of these policies and the hidden policies, which are
actually much worse than these official declarations.

I am engaged to a Chinese citizen, who is an active H-1B visa holder working
for a U.S. technology company. We were visiting China in January to both see
her family and friends and to do the yearly renewal of her re-entry visa. This
latter point is important because it is a mind bogglingly inefficient process
that forces people to travel back to their home country to renew a visa they
already have and are using to live and work in the U.S. just so they can be
able to leave and re-enter. This is just so the U.S. can have the possibility
of keeping them out when they want for whatever reason, just as they have in
this case.

Anyway, the U.S. Consulates shutdown during the outbreak in mid-January,
halting her visa processing, needlessly in my mind because she had already
accomplished her in-person interview. Then, the U.S. Consulate held her
Chinese passport, which had valid visas to other countries, for over a month.
This prevented her from going to another country and doing the visa processing
there. (It is normally recommended to do the renewal in your home country, for
reasons of being stranded wherever you're doing the renewal.) So the U.S.
stopped processing her basically finished visa renewal, then held on to her
non-U.S. passport preventing her to travel between two countries that aren't
the U.S., and now they have kept her out of the country on the point of
helping unemployed workers when she _already has a job because she was the
qualified candidate_. This was all in January and February and some of March,
long before the "official" bans on visas.

I have not seen my fiancee in over five months. It is unlikely I am to see her
in 2020 and even 2021. I _may_ eventually be able to travel to China to see
her, but it is looking more and more that she will be unable to return to the
U.S. any time soon. This is all complicated by the fact that her H-1B is time
bound and the Green Card is a lost cause because it takes multiple years to be
issued.

This is a person who already has a U.S. job that she was more qualified for
than U.S. citizens. Just because people are unemployed doesn't magically make
them qualified for jobs they already lost out on. It also is unclear what
companies who already employ H-1B holders are supposed to do. There is no
policy or method to get the fiancee of a U.S. citizen who already holds a
valid H-1B back into the U.S. right now, and it's not clear when one will open
up. It also makes no sense, from the very beginning, why the U.S. prevented
her from returning at any point unless you understand that the U.S. is
literally at war with China, immigrants, and non-immigrant workers.

All of this is vastly compounded by the inefficiencies, directed by our
miserable administration, of the USCIS, because applying for a K-1 visa is not
as straightforward as you would think. Even though the H-1B is a dual intent
visa, applying for the K-1 visa could see the H-1B process incur delays or
even denial. The U.S. government holds immigrants and non-immigrant workers
hostage, and this is affecting U.S. business and citizens' personal lives.
Right now, it is literally impossible to get someone who has a job in the
U.S., has a current H-1B visa, a home, cars, and other assets in the U.S., is
engaged to a U.S. citizen, and planned on immediately marrying a U.S. citizen
after a "routine" vacation back into the U.S. any sooner than years. This is a
pathetic situation.

I am a tech worker who has worked for technology companies and national
security labs. I am now being forced to think about leaving my parents and
brother behind in the U.S. to consider moving outside of the U.S. so that I
can continue my life with my fiancee and build my own family.

People in this country wax on (whine) about freedoms, but what they are really
wanting is to do whatever they want when they want it at the expense of
literally anyone else but themselves, including their neighbor. It's nothing
but extreme narcissism, and I cannot help but feel this country is a lost
cause. The U.S. is an extremist state now, taken over by charlatans and
textbook traitors.

~~~
jpmoral
That part about having to do the visa-stamping outside the US does not make
sense to me.

~~~
bmitc
It doesn't make sense to anyone but the U.S. government. It gives them the
right to deny the renewal or re-entry for any reason and then say "too bad,
you're in your home country, so our hands are washed of the situation."

You must renew your visa in your home country. There is a possibility of doing
it in another country, such as Canada, but this is not usually recommended and
has a higher probability of failing.

Mind you, these are people that _already have visas_. They are simply being
renewed. The secondary effect of this is that it slows down processing of
visas, which lowers how many are given out and increases the cost of the
USCIS. Although I think this particular thing has existed for a while now, the
Trump administration has made it a point to needlessly increase the processing
time by making policies to delay the processing. This is a tactic that further
slows down the USCIS, making it much more costly, just so that they can point
out how costly and inefficient the USCIS is when it is their policies that
make those things worse.

For example, if you make an application for an H-1B, extension, or renewal, it
takes months to prepare the paperwork. Once submitted, the USCIS can send it
back, requesting more information. This has become much more common under the
Trump administration, because it basically adds a minimum three to six month
delay to the process. It gets sent back to the applicant, one must _extremely_
carefully understand the confusing request for more information, provide the
information, and resubmit. The USCIS then starts the whole evaluation process
back over again.

~~~
NovemberWhiskey
You mentioned a number of times that the visa has to be renewed in your home
country.

I don’t think that’s correct. Although often it’s considered advisable to do
it that way (consular processing), there is an alternative process (change of
status) where you apply while remaining in the US.

(source: renewed an L-1A visa a few years ago; advice received from my firm’a
immigration attorneys)

~~~
bmitc
My knowledge comes from immigration lawyers, sponsoring companies, and H-1B
holders themselves, all of which spend tens of thousands of dollars on these
things. They would have had to miss something, which I doubt, so it's a bit
presumptuous of you to say it is incorrect. I am talking about the re-stamping
process in which you are able to leave the U.S. and come back, so maybe I used
the wrong words. As far as I understand, if you never do this stamping
process, you can just stay in the U.S., never leaving while your H-1B remains
valid.

The process is so overly complicated, it's hard to track. I am not aware of
any process in which you can re-stamp an H-1B inside the U.S. You meed to do
an in-person interview, and these are done at U.S. Consulates and Embassies,
none of which are inside the U.S.

Of course, it's difficult to quickly find the information on the official U.S.
websites, but here are sites that explain it.

[http://www.greencardapply.com/question/question17/H1B_Visa_S...](http://www.greencardapply.com/question/question17/H1B_Visa_Stamping_111317.htm)

[https://www.h1base.com/visa/work/h1b%20visa%20stamping/ref/1...](https://www.h1base.com/visa/work/h1b%20visa%20stamping/ref/1466/)

~~~
cylinder
yes you are right. You eventually need a visa label as soon as you abroad.

Upon renewal even the most trivial thing can be used with no transparency or
accountability or review and keep you out of the country for life. Bam. Can't
get back home, stuck in India, everything left behind. That's it. I know
because I've had several clients lives ruined by thus lunacy.

------
AnAnonyCowherd
A lot of people are bemoaning this move from the viewpoint in the Valley. I
work for an old-school Fortune 250 which is a top-30 H-1B holder. They
strategically employ thousands of visa holders for jobs that hardly require a
high school education. It seems to be a calculated move to get over-qualified
workers at a discount, who have very limited mobility in the job market. From
my view here, it's a system that's working against the long-term interests of
the country, denying those jobs to local people for whom they would be a huge
leg up.

~~~
manuelabeledo
Then your company is cheating the system.

H1-B visas are for highly skilled workers, either holding higher education
diplomas or similar qualifications. They also come with a minimum salary
requirement, which for most tech companies would start at $150,000.

Any company paying their visa holders less than the required minimum salary
cap, is indeed committing a crime.

Also, this move is obviously directed against tech companies. It does not make
any distinction between large IT providers such as TATA, well known for their
dumping tactics, and Microsoft, Google, or Apple.

I would even go further to say that, given the lack of interest in banning the
entry of seasonal workers, who focus mostly on blue collar jobs, and given
that the highest contribution to the rising unemployment numbers come from
lower paid service and manual jobs, this is just another move to appeal to the
rural, hard right wing Trump base.

As it will not impact them in any significant manner, yet it would create more
uncertainty in wealthier, highly educated, urban areas.

~~~
AnAnonyCowherd
> They also come with a minimum salary requirement, which for most tech
> companies would start at $150,000.

While I understand that my company is cheating the system, this particular
requirement is news to me. I personally work with dozens who are probably
taking home something in the $70-80K range. I'm guessing this particular cheat
is that most are working through Tata and Infosys (and others, but they're
local, and would give away who I work for). The company is probably paying the
placement firm that kind of money, and the visa holders are getting shafted.
The direct H-1B's are higher-level, and, given what I know of the company's
salary schedules, may well be getting paid at the bottom of the requirement.

~~~
ameixaseca
This is what Google has to say about "H1B minimum salary":

"The H 1B also requires that the H-1B employer pay the H-1B employee the
prevailing wage or the actual wage, whichever is higher. The prevailing wage
is the salary paid to workers in similar occupations in the geographic area of
the intended employment. The actual wage is the wage that the employer pays
employees in similar occupations at the location of the intended employment..
Since the procedures and record keeping required for the H-1B are complex, an
attorney or other trained person will be necessary to complete the paperwork."

[https://internationaloffice.berkeley.edu/h-1b_faqs](https://internationaloffice.berkeley.edu/h-1b_faqs)

------
belltaco
With companies getting very comfortable with WFH and remote work because of
the pandemic, this is perfect timing for them to hire offshore in India or in
Canada to keep the timezone the same. And open offices in Canada and/or India.
Once offices are set up in Canada, preference will be to hire new teams there
since anyone in the world can work easily there and salaries and costs are
lower than in the US.

~~~
marrone12
I'm an American citizen with a Canadian wife and would love for more companies
to have offices in Canada. We would definitely move if the job market was
better compared to California.

~~~
mabbo
The wages are improving at Canadian FAANG offices. Competition from others is
increasing.

That doesn't mean I'm making SF compensation levels, but I also don't have to
pay 3/4 of it in rent.

Maybe you could come visit and consider your options.

~~~
niyazpk
I live in Vancouver and ~1/2 of my salary goes to rent. In Seattle, my rent
was ~1/3 of my salary. I don't think Canada is even beginning to compete in
terms of Salary.

~~~
raydev
Vancouver != Canada. Toronto salaries are much better at the big name US-based
companies.

~~~
digianarchist
Rent is half of your salary in Toronto too.

~~~
raydev
This is certainly true if you insist on living a 10 minute walk to your office
downtown. But there's plenty of cheaper options just a 30-45 minute train/bus
ride away (can't speak to biking or driving).

This isn't true of Vancouver and I'm not sure why.

~~~
digianarchist
Mountains. US border. Ocean. The only thing that limits building in the GTA is
the Green Belt.

------
sega_sai
As a scientist in the US (on H1B visa), I really worry about other scientists
postdocs/professors that were planning to come to the States and won't be able
to (and will be out of the job, as very often your previous postdoc ends at
the time when the new one is about to start). This capricious government is
uprooting lives of people without any advance notice or concern. Essentially
people are dealt with like cattle. Today you can go, next day you can't.
(personally this is one of the reasons I'm moving back to the UK, where at
least I don't have to deal with idiotic immigration laws).

~~~
huy-nguyen
Usually post docs can either be on H1B or J1 research scholar/professor visas.
The former is blocked but the latter is not so it’s not all hopeless.

~~~
chebureki
The US has either suspended or slowed down visa processing due to COVID-19.

[https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/News/visas-
news/s...](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/News/visas-
news/suspension-of-routine-visa-services.html)

------
nine_zeros
As I posted somewhere else, this is THE time for EU to jumpstart their tech
industry.

It's a simple process:

\- Actively court American companies to set up shop in EU

\- The global market is filled with tech workers who would otherwise be sucked
in by the US. Give them visas.

This is a great boost to GDP and bounce back from covid recession. Canada has
capitalized on this for the past 4 years and the wages in Canada have only
gone up and up.

EU can have the pie too while the US shoots itself in the foot.

~~~
filoleg
>Actively court American companies to set up shop in EU

They have already been doing that pretty actively for quite a while. Doesn't
seem to help much, if at all. Have you seen how much those American companies
are paying to their employees in the EU? It is a joke compared to how much
they pay in the US, and even with that in mind, their pay is still well above
local equivalent companies. And it isn't due to differences in cost of living,
just take a look at how much FB London pays (yes, I am aware that UK is not a
part of EU, but the point still stands; I just simply picked one of the
biggest "hub" cities in the are with very high COL).

>The global market is filled with tech workers who would otherwise be sucked
in by the US. Give them visas.

EU doesn't suffer from a lack of talented individuals who have a desire and
skills to start their own tech company. There have been countless discussions
on this topic on HN, and the hard truth is that the governments in EU are
simply not providing a conductive environment for those tech startups to
flourish into internationally known giants. And the whole EU fragmentation due
to wildly different legislations and language/culture barriers on a per-
country basis isn't helping the matter either.

~~~
mFixman
Anecdotal data, but you are wrong. If you count total comp FB London pays
waaaay more than British tech companies and pretty much anything outside of
high finance. The salaries aren't that much lower from what you'll get in
Silicon Valley.

~~~
angarg12
Data?

From my experience, my colleagues in Seattle make about twice as much as I do
in the UK. Raw numbers, not counting taxes, cost of living, etc. In general a
new hire in US can make as much as a senior in EU.

Comparing income between countries is very difficult due to a lot of factors
(different currency, cost of living, taxes, social benefits like health and
education...) but I don't think is hard to argue that tech workers are paid
much better in the US than they are in the EU, factoring everything in.

~~~
nine_zeros
Why compare with Seattle?

Also just because Seattle gets more, does that mean its not worthwhile to have
higher wages in UK? What kind of reductionist point of view is this?

It has been clearly observed that the standards of living and wages have gone
up in countries that have invested in tech over last 20 years. These countries
are USA, India, China and Canada recently. Don't you want higher than what you
are getting now? Make it easy for industry to survive and operate there.

~~~
themacguffinman
> Why compare with Seattle?

Because if Seattle has significantly higher wages, the best talent will move
to Seattle.

~~~
nine_zeros
> Because if Seattle has significantly higher wages, the best talent will move
> to Seattle.

Not if the entry to Seattle is blocked. In which case, the employers have to
move to where the best talent is.

~~~
themacguffinman
Not if that means they have to move everywhere (which only big tech can
afford), and not if the EU continues to be a bad environment for startups to
flourish. The best talent will be underpaid or scattered, which is the point.

------
phenkdo
The "no-shortage-if-you-pay-enough" dog has caught up to the car, and now the
proponents need to show the US citizens can indeed fill many of these
positions.

I think it will be a unfortunate denouement for both industry and research.

~~~
drocer88
Current U-6 Unemployment Rate is 20.7% . If they can't , we have a problem
that needs to be fixed.

~~~
esoterica
Tech unemployment definitely isn't 20.7%.

------
erikig
The freeze is pretty wide ranging and will apply to a number of other visas as
well:

\- H1-B - Specialty occupations

\- H4 - Immediate family members of the H-1B visa holders

\- L - Intracompany transferees from oversees

\- J - Work-and study-based exchange

\- H2-B - Temporary non-agricultural workers

~~~
gnulinux
The ban on J is extremely weird and devastating. When I was in UC Berkeley a
lot (all? most? idk) of non-citizen researchers and professors were on J. How
will this work?

Disclaimer: I'm currently on H1B in the US, so I'm not unbiased.

~~~
jhart99
It is going to go extremely poorly. Guess we can't hire any non-US postdocs
anymore with the exception of Canada/Mexico since they have a NAFTA visa that
isn't on the list. I also suppose that if the ones we have leave the country
and need their J-1 visa renewed, they will be stuck until 2021.

~~~
huy-nguyen
J1 has many different categories. Postdocs are usually on the research
scholar/professor category of J1, which are not affected.

------
huy-nguyen
Please replace this article with the official order:
[https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-
actions/proclamation...](https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-
actions/proclamation-suspending-entry-aliens-present-risk-u-s-labor-market-
following-coronavirus-outbreak/)

------
Traster
I'm not very informed on this topic, but doesn't this seem exactly like DACA?
Where they issued a stupid executive order, and then the supreme court over-
ruled them because they weren't competent enough at justifying their decision?
Would that be likely to happen here as well?

~~~
fsociety
No as bad as this is the EO against DACA was more nefarious and targeting a
more vulnerable group.

This does have reason rooted in the unemployment rate, the issue is that it is
done in a way to fuck over a lot of people.

They should’ve not let companies abuse H1B over the past X years, instead of
fucking over a bunch of people.

------
m0zg
And also, there's a proposal to _finally_ require that H1-B's are paid no less
than median pay for the jobs, when visa issuance is resumed. Companies are
fighting it tooth and nail, obviously, but I think they'll lose this time.

~~~
president
A lot of people are under the assumption that H1-B workers are all about
saving on salary costs when this is actually not the full picture and actually
leads to misguided arguments in the media and discussions that I have
observed. As someone who has worked with many many H1-B workers in the past
decade, I can tell you that H1-B workers are hired not because they are "low
cost" but because they are willing to put in long hours and are very agreeable
to tough working conditions. They are generally agreeable to managers and will
not typically complain about or call out ethical/legal concerns when they
arise. On top of all of this, companies understand that they can mistreat H1-B
workers as much as they want because most of them cannot switch jobs for years
due to their visa situation. Simply put, H1-B workers are highly sought after
because they have little effective working rights compared to American
workers. And after decades of H1-B reliance, companies have been able to
transform the American working culture by making this the norm. Even American
workers must now adhere to these types of working conditions as in many top
companies, H1-B workers make up the majority of the workers.

~~~
m0zg
Yes and no. You get to hire PhDs and senior developers into entry level
positions, with entry level pay, and then keep them there until they get a
green card and show you the middle finger. Glorified indentured servitude. And
I say this as a former H1-B myself (sponsored by Microsoft). Once I got a
green card (which, BTW, took 7 years), my career took off like a rocket.
Elsewhere.

~~~
sg47
Exactly this. It really is glorified indentured servitude.

~~~
mav3rick
It is not in many cases. FAANGs pay similar or more to H1Bs. Maybe the local
workers should work harder rather hide behind competition.

~~~
m0zg
They pay similar _at the levels where they are hired_. That's what the letter
of law requires. They just hire them at lower levels to pay less. And where
they _really_ want to save costs, they hire the typical Indian sweatshops
which are full of H1Bs who are overworked and paid peanuts. That's why the
overall number of people working at e.g. Microsoft or Google can be nearly
double their FTE count.

~~~
sg47
Sorry, that's just not correct. Microsoft or Google does not intentionally try
to hire people at lower levels based on their immigration status. They do
outsource some IT work to companies like Infosys or TCS which are Indian
sweatshops but not their FTEs.

------
iask
It’s a psychological play that is politically motivated. Nothing else.

~~~
dragonwriter
It's an election year move to split pro-labor-progressive Democrats and
Democratic-leaners from neoliberal capitalist Democrats (and to force Biden to
commit one way or the other, or to waffle indeterminately in the middle
alienating both) while energizing right-wing xenophobes.

~~~
WhiskeyTang
I think this is Trump's primary motivation too.

Regardless of one's opinion on immigration however, suddenly creating an
immediately invoked executive order with no warning, no grace period, and no
plan for what comes next is reckless and will needlessly cause harm to many
people who were just trying to do what's best for themselves while acting
fully within the law and system as it exists (er, existed). It is a morally
bereft and politically motivated action, which is to say, exactly what we
should all expect from the narcissistic orange clown in the Oval Office.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Regardless of one's opinion on immigration however, suddenly creating an
> immediately invoked executive order with no warning, no grace period, and no
> plan for what comes next

There's been warning that something like this was coming for a while, and it's
been broadly expected since the April 22 immigration halt order, given the way
Trump had previously railed against the existing H-1B system as worker-hostile
and the entire justification for the April 22 immigration halt was the threat
to US workers from immigrants in the present crisis.

------
totalZero
As with many thing this administration has done, this move may have some
nefarious and xenophobic motivations. I don't want to speculate about those
things.

However, I have heard the notion that, with unemployment numbers soaring, the
American job market ought to prioritize the re-employment of Americans before
serving the employment interests of foreign nationals.

I don't know what the numbers are, but anecdotally I know a few people in my
social circle who are highly skilled/educated and have been jobless due to the
pandemic.

Will this work visa suspension be a positive development for those people?

~~~
Daishiman
It's just going to continue pushing forward the hiring of qualified remote
talent and satellite offices elsewhere.

In my circle nobody's been seriously thinking about emigrating to the US if
they have the option to go to Germany, Switzerland, Spain or the UK instead.

~~~
digianarchist
The US will always be the outlier when it comes to both opportunities and
salaries.

I personally still plan on moving to the US but my employer changing their
transfer policy the day after Trump's inauguration certainly didn't help.

------
filoleg
>The official said Trump has also directed aides to work on longer-term
reforms to the immigration system. The president is pushing for a more merit-
based system that would distribute H-1B visas based on which applicants
received the highest wage offers, the official said.

I found this part to be the most interesting. If this current proclamation is
a prelude to the overhaul of H1B system in a way that would make it work like
described above, then it is somewhat exciting for a couple of reasons.

1\. It would get it closer to Canadian system for work visas, which works as a
point system that (I think a lot of people here would agree) is more
preferable to how H1B works now.

2\. It solves the whole issue with consultancy companies flooding the H1B pool
with extremely underpaid bodies, thus making it more difficult for other
people to get their H1B visas.

EDIT: after reading some replies, I feel the need to clarify what I meant. I
am not saying "this H1B suspension is a good thing, because it means they will
implement those other changes very soon" (because I don't believe this will
happen). I simply meant that this H1B suspension aside, it would be great if
that proposal for a giant H1B reform actually materialized, and I am glad it
got mentioned. And no, I am not holding my breath that it will happen soon,
but I am just glad that it seems to be getting some traction.

~~~
octbash
>I found this part to be the most interesting. If this current proclamation is
a prelude to the overhaul of H1B system in a way that would make it work like
described above, then it is somewhat exciting for a couple of reasons.

I think most people who've dealt with the immigration system would think that
that is naive. This administration has proven time and time again with regards
to immigration that they will pay lip service to making improvements while
almost always simply making life harder for immigrants and people on visas.

See: how they suspended H-1B premium processing for a while some time back,
also claiming that it was in service of "overhauling" the H-1B system.

~~~
subsaharancoder
Is there any reasonable explanation why the previous administration, which
controlled both the house and senate albeit for a short period + won 2 terms,
didn't make any meaningful progress to overhaul the process and make it merit
based?

~~~
huy-nguyen
The Democrats spent all of the period when they had supermajority in the
senate and majority in the house barely being able to pass the affordable care
act (and subsequently sustaining great political damage for that). After Scott
Brown replaced the late Ted Kennedy, almost everything was subject to
filibuster and it became really hard to do anything substantial. Comprehensive
Immigration reform came close in 2013 (in the wake of the 2012 republican
presidential election loss) and was passed bipartisanly in the senate but died
in the republican-controlled house.

~~~
muzaffarpur
This. Democratic party never intended to pass DACA. All the wanted was to
create shock waves and funny how that turned out. If President Obama wanted to
legislate DACA, he would've done in his first term. He made sure to to get
elected twice and in last term, he chose to introduce DACA. It is clear form
last election voting, that majority of America doesn't want DACA. Doesn't
matter how much news outlets push for it. All democrats wanted was to polarize
their base. They're no different from DJT.

------
oatmeal_croc
Let me share my H1B experience.

I did Masters in CS at a top 30 University in the US, graduated in Feb 2017,
got into a major US tech company on OPT, at a higher-than-median income as a
software engineer, unsuccessfully tried 3 times to crack the H1b lottery from
2017 to 2019. In 2020, I received a Canadian PR, and moved to Canada (we have
an office here in Vancouver, although I took up a remote position in Toronto).
I'm working on the same job here in Canada, although I had to take a bit of a
pay cut. I'm happy to be here, and its great. It was a bit of a circus to get
my Social number in Canada in the beginning due to COVID, but it's been smooth
sailing since then.

I miss my girlfriend who's in the US and is on OPT. So I got my company to
apply for my H1B again in 2020, and finally got through lottery on the fourth
attempt (consular processing), and was going to be back by October 1st. Due to
the H1B travel ban, I now cannot travel to the US before Jan 1st 2021 as I
don't have a visa stamp yet. I'm now considering not going back, as I don't
see the point. My girlfriend is quite capable of moving her job to Canada as
well, and her company is more than willing to do so via a work permit.

I know for a fact that I'm not the only person who moved an American job
overseas due to visa policy. The fact that my company's HR and immigration
consultant company (Fragomen) worked on this like clockwork suggests that this
is something they're used to doing, as they reached out to me before my OPT
work permit was expiring. When a company has an employee for three years, it's
a lot easier to hire them overseas than hire someone else, American or not,
even if the former option costs the company a lot more. I unfortunately know
several people who had visas they couldn't renew follow the route I took, and
it worked out for them in the end. I want to start my own start-up eventually,
and that's probably not possible on an H1B anyway (or so exceedingly difficult
that I wouldn't try).

I'm going to miss US National Parks though.

------
progers7
If [https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-
Category.as...](https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-
Category.aspx?T=WC) is accurate, the bay area was the top recipient of H1B
recipients in 2019.

------
ericwood
This has been extremely disappointing news for our family. My sister's
boyfriend is an Irish citizen and recently got a job at a large national lab
in the same city as us, visa sponsorship and everything. They were supposed to
be here in April, but covid delayed things. Now the won't be coming at all.
I'm not sure what we're going to do. This was a huge opportunity for him, and
it was going to reunite our family. I'm unbelievably sad right now.

It's especially bullshit, given part of the H1B criteria is proving there's no
US citizens that can do the job. I have a hard time seeing any good coming
from this, and it feels like Trump is just pushing his xenophobic agenda
further.

~~~
armitron
It's not at all bullshit. The H1B criteria mean nothing and are trivial to
game. They've been abused continuously to bring in entry-level talent, avoid
hiring Americans and lower wages across the board.

This is a great decision and one of the few good things about this presidency.
H1Bs as they now exist should be banned outright and only specific VISAs
handed out based purely on merit.

~~~
gnulinux
I don't think you understand. Without H1B and J there is _no way_ for US to
hire any talent into US. No world-class engineer can work in any US company,
no world-class researcher can be hired to any US university. This is will long
lasting effects on US economy for years to come.

~~~
pnako
What about the American world-class engineers, though?

There are great universities in the US. Use them to train young American
people. This could even benefit African Americans and other minorities.

~~~
bagacrap
What about them? Are world class American engineers harmed by proximity to
their foreign colleagues? Are world class American engineers so numerous that
we can't find anything else for additional world class engineers to work on?

~~~
pnako
I don't know if I'm a world-class engineer, but I'm definitely a foreign
engineer. Why should we all end up in Silicon Valley?

I'd rather have good engineers around the world than all competing in
California just because it's a good way for the FANG companies to keep wages
lower than they should be. The same companies that tell us that we're living
in an interconnected world and so on. Fine, just open offices everywhere in
the world, or promote remote work, instead of trying to get everyone in the
same physical talent pool.

Ultimately it only benefits the shareholders of those companies, not engineers
(American or foreign), nor the population of the areas where tech cash is
driving all prices up.

~~~
fsociety
They are opening up offices around the world and starting to promote remote
work. You can do this and not fuck people over with the H1B ban.

------
ayakura
Apologies. I had to clip part of the EO's official title to fit the title
requirement.

------
dragonwriter
Also, extends the complete immigration freeze that started April 22 till the
end of the year. Those nomimmigrant visas (H-1B, H-4, J, L) are added to the
existing and now extended halt to all immigration, not a standalone thing.

------
plg
Reading the declaration it seems it does not apply to people who have existing
visas and are (re)entering the US. Is this correct?

(How border agents choose to enforce, however, is anyone’s guess)

------
dk8996
Just to add something to the conversation. I'm sure you guys see these
recruiting emails as well but here an example of why H1B is broken. This
salary is below market rate, clearly targeting H1B visas. Also below 150k
mark. I like the idea and the spirit of the H1B and other visas but I think
it's being abused.

"W2 Role: Scala Developer, Loc : NYC, NY, Salary : $114k per annum, H1
TRANSFERS, H4 EAD, L2 EAD, USC, GC."

------
bustin
The various reasons this is wild to do aside, it looks like 2020 is
kneecapping the bay area rental market even more.

According to [1], the Bay Area has around 12,435 people living and working
here on H1B visas, no doubt mostly in Tech.

[1] [https://insights.dice.com/2020/01/14/h-1b-salaries-
filings-h...](https://insights.dice.com/2020/01/14/h-1b-salaries-filings-
highest-12-cities/)

------
throw345hn
Does this apply to H1B ‘transfers’? I know that it’s not officially called a
transfer so was wondering if that be counted as a new application and so will
be rejected.

~~~
pronoyc
It doesn't apply to transfers since the visa has already been issued.

~~~
throw345hn
Thanks. With the way it’s phrased as ‘case by case‘ basis - I think even if
it’s technically allowed, they may end up rejecting on broad terms.

Anyways I am already packing my bags and will be out of the country in a few
days when I am able to find a flight.

------
0xy
Am I correct that this only applies to _new_ visas through those programs, and
existing visa holders will be able to renew?

~~~
jedberg
You are correct:

The order does not apply to those already in the United States, and it gives
the Trump administration some leeway in making other exceptions. For example,
immigrants applying for visas to provide labor "essential to the United States
food supply chain" are exempt. Individuals "whose entry would be in the
national interests" as determined by the federal government are exempt as
well.

~~~
detaro
And current visa holders that aren't in the US right now have a problem. Saw
some reports on Twitter from some seeing early reports and trying to make it,
but being denied boarding on flights to the US.

~~~
sg47
It's not clear if people outside the country with valid visas can re-enter. My
spouse is on a H4 and is currently out of the country. We are worried that
they might not be able to re-enter. Going through this after 18 years being in
this country is extremely frustrating.

~~~
dragonwriter
It is very clear that the order allows it (but that doesn't mean that's what
is being enforced; as with the Muslim ban, it's quite possible that on top of
whatever disputes there are about the policy in the text, the enforcement,
especially initially, may not align with the text). In relevant part, and note
the conditions are “and” conditions:

Sec. 3. Scope of Suspension and Limitation on Entry. (a) The suspension and
limitation on entry pursuant to section 2 of this proclamation shall apply
only to any alien who:

(i) is outside the United States on the effective date of this proclamation;

(ii) does not have a nonimmigrant visa that is valid on the effective date of
this proclamation; and

(iii) does not have an official travel document other than a visa (such as a
transportation letter, an appropriate boarding foil, or an advance parole
document) that is valid on the effective date of this proclamation or issued
on any date thereafter that permits him or her to travel to the United States
and seek entry or admission.

~~~
sg47
For a H4 visa, what's that travel document? My spouse has a visa but not sure
what's this official travel document is.

~~~
dragonwriter
If you have a visa, you don't need a separate travel document; the order
exempts both people with current visas and people with current nonvisa travel
documents.

------
7d7n
WSJ: [https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-order-would-
temporarily-s...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-order-would-temporarily-
suspend-new-h-1b-other-visas-11592853371)

~~~
coolspot
No paywall: [https://archive.is/AO6w9](https://archive.is/AO6w9)

------
alvatech
Is a H-1B holder already in USA allowed to travel out side the country and
comeback?

~~~
bmitc
I would highly, highly recommend not traveling. My fiancee already has an
H-1B, and we were traveling together when all this broke out. She has not been
allowed back in the country, and it unlikely she is able to be let back in
anytime soon. I have not seen her in over five months, and there is no rainbow
in sight as to when she can return.

~~~
Nginx487
Your story if truly heartbreaking. Me and my fiancee met the same problems
(not in the US), however we decided that being together is more important than
having better career opportunities - so we choose a country where both of us
were able to receive a business visa without significant problems. Were you
considering something like that?

~~~
bmitc
Yes, I am actively considering to move out of the country. However, this is
troublesome too. My parents and brother are still here, and my parents are
aging. If I do have kids, I would love for my parents to be around them, and I
miss my parents dearly already since I unfortunately live far away, even in
the U.S.

~~~
Nginx487
I totally understand your situation. I meet my parents twice a year (well, was
meeting before COVID-19), my working options severely limited, however I'm not
even for a second was feeling regrets of my decision.

Hope these restrictions are temporary, also AFAIK after being actually
married, your spouse would be eligible for K-1 US visa. Wish you luck in any
case.

~~~
bmitc
Thank you for the kind words and encouragement. Hopefully you are doing well
in your situation now.

I hope these are temporary, but I imagine they will be temporary until at
least January of next year. If the unthinkable happens in November, the
prognosis is not good. Even the K-1 visa has large delays, and they aren't
even processing any visas at U.S. Consulates in China right now.

------
jhowell
There will be lawsuits. This is not settled.

------
empath75
Does anyone know if au pairs are exempt?

~~~
hkmurakami
Au-pairs are called out as affected in the WSJ article.

"In addition to the H-1B visa, the temporary ban will apply to new H-2B visas
for short-term seasonal workers in landscaping and other nonfarm jobs, J-1
visas for short-term workers including camp counselors and au pairs and L-1
visas for internal company transfers."

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-order-would-
temporarily-s...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-order-would-temporarily-
suspend-new-h-1b-other-visas-11592853371?mod=hp_lead_pos1)

------
ylyn
Does this apply to the H-1B1-Singapore?

~~~
jchallis
This does not apply to H1B1 on advice of our company's immigration lawyer. I
know some folks with an interview scheduled for next week at US embassy in
Singapore ... fingers crossed it isn't canceled.

------
davidw
Virtually all economists agree that this is a terrible idea.

There is not a 'fixed lump of labor' to go around.

A good follow on twitter for immigration issues is David Bier, of the CATO
institute:
[https://twitter.com/David_J_Bier](https://twitter.com/David_J_Bier) . I'm not
a libertarian, but he puts out a lot of research and well-informed articles.

~~~
jmpman
David Bier needs to talk to American workers who have been displaced by
Infosys or TCS. His ivory tower view sounds great in academia papers, but my
experience says that the system isn’t considering US citizens like it’s
supposed to.

~~~
davidw
The US has done just fine by itself by welcoming immigrants. How many Fortune
500 companies were founded by them or their children?

You can't know ahead of time which ones will go on to be successful, or maybe
have a kid who is.

The solution to people in the US going through tough times is to help them
directly, not encourage companies to open offices in Canada and the EU.

~~~
randompwd
> not encourage companies to open offices in Canada and the EU.

Opening offices in Canada and EU directly correlates to the sales of their
products and services in those markets.

Not quite sure what your point is.

Forcing companies to hire out of the _massive_ pool of US workers(~330
million) is good for the country, its people, just not so good for the profit
margins of the companies hiring foreign labour to save money & labour rights
strength.

No skills in use that can't be learnt/trained.

~~~
conanbatt
If a software engineer is hired by a US firm, or his products purchased by
Americans, do you want that engineer to be in the US or outside the US?

------
mymythisisthis
I'm wondering if the EU will retaliate?

~~~
elcomet
This is extremely good for Europe (as people will go there instead of to the
US).

So they certainly won't

------
baby
If you want to have a fun read:
[https://www.facebook.com/groups/1406862602901657/permalink/2...](https://www.facebook.com/groups/1406862602901657/permalink/2571584449762794/?__cft__\[0\]=AZU4poB_g3FXZ2e8qr_8EOn1z1IytVnzg-237c17DOLRhvm0X0_roO_sngy5B0D-V-
sLNAR1VJSny1w63L_3DD1frFI4WhPt-tU2nI6488iyoonW8eXFI1Y7nKs-
KiGM9_eE7TpqA0UOaIPI6tZLoiBRxSiIaLrcDKyhc4dZSo27mw&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R)

a "French in the US" facebook community with 200 comments of people panicking.

~~~
0xFFC
I would not call people panicking “fun”.

~~~
baby
missing from my comment was the implied sarcasm (I was one of them a few years
back and had my fair share of visa issues and had to leave the US)

------
dangus
There are a lot of valid criticisms of skilled labor visas in the United
States.

But you also can’t ignore the population growth problems that would exist in
this country without immigration. We would be Japan.

And the entire suburban growth Ponzi scheme that every post-1890s American
city suffers from will be exacerbated by shutting off not just immigration but
immigration of skilled labor.

How many countries would _dream_ of educated people flocking to live in their
country?

Unfortunately the whole discussion seems like one big digression. No matter
which angle you approach this at, it’s just bad policies all around. You’d
think that a policy built on training the vast US citizen population with
better, more equitable education would be better than importing foreigners.
You’d think that lowering the cost of education would help, that companies
would prefer a large supply of educated citizens.

The problem is, all that thinking naively assumes our policymakers and the
donor class don’t hold active disdain for their own constituents: because an
H1B worker is a worker with no leverage and worse ability to quit.

If you read this whole comment and are confused at what position I’m trying to
take, you’re not alone. I don’t even know anymore.

~~~
dragonwriter
> But you also can’t ignore the population growth problems that would exist in
> this country without immigration. We would be Japan.

No, we wouldn’t; Japan has negative natural population growth, the US has
positive natural population growth (and it's the greatest contributor to
overall populayion growth, more than net immigration.)

~~~
diehunde
Isn't immigration contributing to that natural population growth across
generations?

~~~
0xFFC
Yeap. He/she did miss the point current population _does_ include immigrants.

With those fertility rate I would expect be around 1.2,1.3 for us which far
far below replacement rate (let alone population growth).

