
Plan B - Skip College - timr
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/weekinreview/16steinberg.html?src=me&ref=general
======
warwick
I think what bothers me most when I read this sort of article is that it
treats all college degrees as equivalent. They talk about average earnings
potential and average unemployment rates, but they never break it down. If you
get a B.Sc. instead of a B.A., how does that effect your chances?

Almost all my friends without some sort of technical degree (Chem, CompSci,
Physics, Math, etc.) aren't working anywhere near their field of study. They
paid tens of thousands of dollars so that they can be secretaries, waitresses,
and ice cream parlour cashiers.

~~~
hristov
Exactly. Also, I think it errs by treating all colleges as equivalent. Since
the government subsidises educational loans there are many colleges out there
that do not provide much of an education but mostly exist to siphon off those
subsidised loans.

I think there are many colleges out there which are just not worth going to.
Mind you, I am not an ivy league snob, I am not saying go to a top 50 school
or not at all. There are many great schools that are ranked much lower.

But all of those for profit colleges that advertise heavily are mostly a waste
of money. If you want to learn something, go to a school that is either public
or private but set up as a non-profit and has an established reputation of
supporting scholarship and research. Just forget about the ITT techs and
universities of phoenix. Community college would be better than those.

I think the government is just too loose with the loans it subsidises.

~~~
stretchwithme
absolutely. if people paid market rates for education loans, you'd see an
increased focus on rate of return. And we'd also see an increased focus from
schools on quality instruction in well paid fields and less spending on
recreational facilities.

For-profit schools may not be as well regarded, but remember that they have to
pay taxes while the others don't. And many get a lot of other subsidies as
well. So the real costs are somewhat obscured.

~~~
hristov
I am not sure I agree with that. I like subsidized loans. They should just be
more careful that the loans go to worthwhile schools and degrees.

~~~
stretchwithme
they'd be more careful if they personally were taking on the real debt that
makes the subsidies possible. instead, others are forced to take it on because
they'll be stuck paying off a massive $13 trillion national debt.

its time people took responsibility for their own choices.

------
petercooper
All well and good if it's all about smarts and money, but the social aspects
of having to spend four years collaborating and tolerating your peers cannot
be underestimated. People who've gone through four years of college are,
typically, well-rounded in their general knowledge and social skills, more
liberal and more tolerant.

Colleges don't just take in kids and output kids with knowledge. They turn
kids into a certain type of adult.

~~~
lsc
speaking as someone who didn't go to college, I kindof agree. I mean, I don't
know if I agree with the 'more tolerant' bit, but certainly, more liberal and
better able to get along with other people who have college degrees, more
likely to understand (or at least pretend to understand) modern art, etc...

There are also other, harder to define social changes. The most negative side
of this is that I know people who earn 1/5th what I do who won't lower
themselves to replacing the brakes on their car. I mean, 'round these parts,
mechanics charge $70-$90 an hour. Not many of us make more than that after
taxes. This unwillingness to 'break the rules' and accomplish what you need to
accomplish can be a pretty big problem.

I don't know if it is what college teaches, or if this is simply what college
filters for, but it seems that people who went to school have a narrower view
of what they are able/willing to do. (Not as narrow as what one learns in
service jobs, but still pretty narrow compared to those of us who do work that
'requires' a degree without having one.)

I mean, that's not always true. I know many English majors turned programmers,
some who have become really excellent, and a ridiculous number of physicists
turned programmers. But College, in general, seems to come with a diminished
respect for industry, especially the trades and working with your hands in
general (unless it is 'art') - see discussions here about programming as an
art. to some people, it seems, you are somehow insulting programming by
comparing it to the work of an electrician, a bricklayer or other tradesman,
which to me absolutely sings of arrogance.

~~~
skinnymuch
Your last line - seems more like insecurity to me than anything else.

~~~
lsc
Maybe. In some ways, I'm very proud to have as done as well as I have without
school... in other ways I feel like a dumb hick around my co-workers. Hell,
even half the people who work for me now went to school. So yeah, there is
maybe some, ah, feelings of social inadequacy there, but I don't think that
entirely invalidates my point.

Oh man, speaking of coming off like a hick, yesterday I took my new intern out
to the co-lo (the last few days have been a flurry of hardware work) As usual,
I stopped off at the local, excellent BBQ place (Sams BBQ; pretty close to my
co-lo in San Jose) It was bluegrass night (I hadn't remembered this)

He commented "Wow, this is.... authentic" - I don't know if he thought I was
going to tell him he had a 'purdy mouth' or what, but he was obviously pretty
uncomfortable. He ended up getting his chicken sandwich 'to go'

The whole day probably wasn't going well for him. he wants to do software
stuff, but circumstances dictated that hardware was the order of the day, so
he got to follow me around in noisy environments while I tracked down obscure
parts.

~~~
skinnymuch
Nice comment. Just to make sure we're on the same page here, my comment about
the insecurity was aimed at people who are insulted when programming is
compared to tradesman like work.

Based on your civility and overall personality if I was to meet you with no
prior knowledge of your educational history I would assume you had a bachelors
if not a graduate degree.

~~~
lsc
I am, ah, somewhat different in person. I met my current girlfriend on a
mailing list. When we first met, she said "Wow, you a lot less articulate in
person"

~~~
skinnymuch
Hah. I might be the same way. A lot of times I realize I don't know how to
pronounce words or that I've never said words verbally even though I use them
all the time online.

Case in point: 'articulate'. I bet I've used it quite a bit online but nary a
time in real life.

------
iamdave
I saw a comment in here about people who earn degrees but end up in jobs that
aren't even remotely related to them:

I just started a job at the data center of a major mobile provider,
electronics developer and appliance manufacturing organization. My particular
department is the IT department that supports the call center operations,
there are six guys total in my department.

I have a degree in political science. Jim (names have been changed) has a
degree in biology. Joe has a degree in English Ken has a degree in
environmental science.

Just barely 80% of the people in my department don't have computer science
degrees, but we're working in the IT department of a mobile provider. How did
we get the jobs? We're all hackers who grew up around technology and got
practical, real-life experience.

Personally, I think that's the way to go. But at the same time, I'm reminded
everyday of how important humanities studies are, when I'm in a conversation
with someone younger than me about politics, and I bring up the Holocaust and
they genuinely don't know what the Holocaust is.

Then I see people who vehemently defend the notion that if you don't make
practical application of the knowledge provided in these humanities class,
they're moot and you don't need to know them.

Talk about being on the fence, I'm living it everyday.

------
fleitz
I've always wondered what the employment / income benefits for a degree are
once you account for intelligence. It seems to be that there is a lot of
schooling that goes unused.

~~~
jacoblyles
I think you've pointed out the elephant in the room. In America it is
politically incorrect to believe that some people might not have the cognitive
capacity to excel in college and in jobs requiring college degrees. Every
American is above average. If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because
they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system
failed them. The successful must be condemned for prospering at their expense
and another reform must be tried.

We would rather the vast cognitive middle class take out thousands of dollars
in debt and drop out than "admit defeat" by encouraging them to pursue skilled
careers in nursing, maintenance and repair, and etc. I am skeptical that the
billions of dollars of tax money and individual money spent on the pipe dream
of sending every person to college has been worth the expenditure.

Plans that ignore reality are doomed to failure, no matter how well-
intentioned. And the reality is that not everyone is cut out for Harvard.

~~~
whakojacko
Exactly. The whole "anyone can do anything" culture in America has its
benefits, but also its costs.

I personally think a good middle ground is to be sending far more students to
community colleges. This doesnt immediately comdemn lower-level jobs to the
truly determined (as they can transfer out), but it is far more affordable
than a 4-year degree without much in the way of a loss of benefits for the
students.

On the other hand, It seems like far too many jobs in the US require bachelors
degrees these days. If a job doesnt require a specific major/set of majors in
the posting, the work probably doesnt require a bacheolars at all.

~~~
jacoblyles
A recent Econ Talk podcast reviewing a sociologist's study of low-wage workers
showed that technical degrees and certificates can make a huge difference in a
person's earning potential:

[http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2010/03/newman_on_low-w.htm...](http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2010/03/newman_on_low-w.html)

Though "community college" has a certain stigma among the intellectual classes
that debate and shape public policy, these programs make a strong positive
impact in people's lives.

------
samatman
Especially amusing: of the 10 fastest growing job categories, two require
college degrees. One is accounting; the other is postsecondary education.

In other words, the manufacture of college degrees.

This is powerful support that the age of the ubiquitous bachelor's degree may
soon be over.

~~~
timr
_"This is powerful support that the age of the ubiquitous bachelor's degree
may soon be over."_

It's incorrect to interpret this article as evidence for an anti-intellectual
world-view. Nothing in the article suggests that bachelor's degrees will be
unimportant in the future, particularly for the best jobs. The article also
points out (correctly) that people without college degrees make less on
average, and have less reliable employment.

If anything, this is a disturbing piece of evidence that jobs requiring
skilled labor are becoming less prevalent. However interesting the trend may
be, I don't think it's a trend to celebrate. I'd rather live in a world where
college education is in demand, than one where we're sending kids to
vocational school because there's no point in trying to do better.

~~~
starkfist
You're lucky if you encountered many intellectuals as an undergrad.

But actually I think you're right - skilled white collar jobs will die out
before skilled or unskilled "blue collar" jobs do. People always will need a
broken car fixed, or a wall in their house repaired. The world doesn't
necessarily _need_ brand managers and analysts. Most think-work jobs in
offices (which college is preparing you for) are non-essential in the grand
scheme of things.

~~~
timr
I encountered a lot of intellectuals as an undergrad, actually -- and I didn't
go to a particularly great school. An undergraduate education is worth what
you make of it. If you hang out with idiots, you'll find idiots. Everywhere.
But if you're the type of person who would succeed without a degree, you'll
have _far more_ opportunity if you can finish college. It's a fact.

Also, you've entirely missed the point of what I wrote: if we do end up living
in a world where skilled jobs die out before unskilled jobs, we're in trouble.
Hundreds of years of human societal progress have depended upon education and
technological development. When that trend goes the other way, our society is
well on its way to decline.

When I look over the comments in this thread, I can't help but noticed that
90% of them can be summarized as _"I knew some stupid kids in college who did
things I think are useless; I knew some kids who didn't go to college and
succeeded; therefore, college is useless."_ It's a logical fallacy, writ
large. And when you start associating symbols of education with effete
snobbery, you're engaging in anti-intellectualism, no matter what you've
accomplished in life, or how many books you read in your spare time.

I honestly don't know why my (parent) comment deserves to be voted down into
the weeds, but it makes me a little sad that we've reached the point where a
group of "smart" people can so utterly dismiss a factual comment in favor of
group-think. If you don't think college is worthwhile, that's fine. But it's
still a fact that a college education is associated with higher lifetime
income and greater job stability. And I stand by my assertion that _if this
trend ever reverses itself_ , our society is in trouble. Glorification of
blue-collar labor is a fad reserved to those nations who have the luxury of a
lot wealth to lose.

~~~
starkfist
I didn't miss your point, I just didn't re-iterate it. I am in agreement with
you, but I am pessimistic. I think we are in trouble.

Regarding intellectuals at university, I also met a handful, and I bet the
school I went to was much worse than yours. That said, it seems hard to argue
that advanced education in the USA is promoted as a place for intellectual
advancement. At best, university is marketed as a way to get a better job. At
worst, it's the place where Girls Go Wild.

~~~
timr
_"I didn't miss your point, I just didn't re-iterate it. I am in agreement
with you, but I am pessimistic. I think we are in trouble."_

Fair enough. Sorry for misunderstanding. I was/am mainly replying to the
general anti-intellectual attitude on this thread, but I did misinterpret the
tone of your remark (I was under the impression that you thought it was okay
that white-collar jobs might be diminishing).

 _"it seems hard to argue that advanced education in the USA is promoted as a
place for intellectual advancement. At best, university is marketed as a way
to get a better job. At worst, it's the place where Girls Go Wild."_

I think that the marketing strongly depends on the school, but yes, some
schools do focus on promoting the career training aspect of college.
Nevertheless, my feeling is that (with the exception of schools like ITT and
the University of Phoenix) the marketing is distinct from the experience. Once
you're in college, you've got huge opportunities for learning that you
wouldn't otherwise.

The people in this forum who dismiss college as an unnecessary affectation of
the elite scare me. It's one thing to be philosophical about the value of a
philosophy degree, but it's totally another to assume that college is useless
because you can always get work as a plumber (or a coder). I don't think they
realize how much the well-being of plumbers (and coders) depends on the people
who create new knowledge and technology at universities.

------
cianestro
Every week I see an article like this one. Maybe it's supposed to be some sort
of innuendo that someone needs to solve the "education problem." But it's not
an education problem and neither are most of the other problems that plague
our society. It's a money problem, has been and will always be so. We all
silently say to ourselves, "If I can just get that ______ I will be set." But
how often does this prove true?

There are too many sort-sighted patches out distracting us from the truth that
our depression is our money. How about we see through the symptoms into the
disease for once with a few intelligent alternatives to money/points/etc (all
patches that provoke distrust in one another and needless hoarding or
competition). People love to say moneyless economies would create incentive
for irresponsibility but our reality has proven that to be the exact opposite.

Please don't "skip" college, I don't want to see anyone have to serve me my
"ice cream" even 4 years from now--there's nothing wrong with automated
solutions. More of the same never changes anything but then again, it seems,
neither does saying so.

------
rnugent
This article is so wrong, on so many levels it's hard to imagine that this was
in a respected newspaper. The idea that some folks should not go to college
is, at best, quaint. This reason that people attend college varies a great
deal. Not everyone looks at it as a means to a financial end (otherwise there
would only be several majors - Finance, Medicine, Law, Engineering). Do you
think an English Lit major expects a job at Goldman Sachs upon graduation?
Educators are suggesting this because they are dealing with a wave of
unprepared Freshman and it costs them more money to teach remedial classes and
then risk these folks dropping out. This is a "business" problem for the
higher education industry. Wait, think about that phrase, "Higher Education
Industry". College has become a big business. No longer do Universities exist
to educate our population, they are now a for profit business. In California,
it's easier to be admitted to a public university if you're from out of state
than if you're a resident because the schools can charge more for out of
staters.

The problem is that funding for K-12 schools has dwindled leaving our US grown
kids unprepared for the riggers of university. At the same time the Higher
Education Industry is looking for the highest profit students to attend and
they are coming from out of state and out of this country. That leaves us with
a workforce that is not home grown and a culture that underachieves.

------
j053003
from:
[http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7636561&page=1](http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7636561&page=1)

"According to a survey from National Association of Colleges and Employers,
the class of 2009 is leaving campus with fewer jobs in hand than their 2008
counterparts. The group's 2009 Student Survey found that just 19.7 percent of
2009 graduates who applied for a job actually have one."

------
brianobush
take 100 individuals, 50 go to college, and the other 50 don't. 10 years out,
measure the financial stability (cash flow, net worth, etc) of both groups. I
guarantee those that went to college fair better. Not saying that money is
everything, but it is a powerful enabler.

------
cryofan
the income stats are a lie anyway

~~~
philwelch
Explain? Without more information this comment is useless.

