
Apple finally announces an overhauled Mac mini - evo_9
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/10/apple-finally-announces-an-overhauled-mac-mini/
======
m_mueller
Looking at these config prices... wow: [https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-
mac/mac-mini/3.6ghz-quad-core...](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-
mini/3.6ghz-quad-core-processor-128gb#)

128GB SSD base, +800 USD to go to 1TB? +600 USD to go from 8GB to 32GB?
+300USD to go to the six core CPU? brutal. I was considering this for a moment
instead of building a PC rig at home because I really like macOS, but that's
just too much.

~~~
jimbokun
If Apple just made the parts user replaceable, it wouldn't be a problem.

I used to always just get the lowest configuration Powerbook or Macbook Pro,
and place an order for a RAM upgrade simultaneously from another vendor. And
eventually max out the RAM, upgrade to SSD, etc. Made the upfront purchase
price less of an issue as a longer term investment.

Apple is nickle and diming customers by locking down and soldering everything
on Macs, when they should look at the Mac as a gesture of goodwill to the
professionals and developers who contribute to the Apple ecosystem and help
drive sales of Apple's iOS cash cow.

~~~
dep_b
The RAM is user serviceable on the new Mini. The drive might be soldered this
time but even the 2014 still allowed you to replace it so I am cautiously
optimistic that the iFixit teardown will reveal it to also be replaceable.
Which makes the i7 Mac Mini with base specs quite attractive.

If not you can use an external SSD since it's a desktop computer and doesn't
move. An external 1TB Samsung for everything besides applications and OS isn't
bad at all.

~~~
intopieces
>An external 1TB Samsung for everything besides applications and OS isn't bad
at all.

Yep. 4x TB3 means I don't care at all about the internal storage. I'll take
the 128GB internal drive for the OS and be on my way.

~~~
m_mueller
So, after further consideration I think the one to buy is the base i5 model
with 256GB for 1099. Buy the RAM separately. It looks like it has 2 slots.
With my local vendor 2x16GB DDR 2666Mhz comes out at 300 USD or so. I already
have an external 1TB SSD, but otherwise a Samsung T5 is available for around
220 USD. That's a 1600ish USD system, which is somewhat reasonable for a mac
with those specs IMO. Would be nice if Apple just gave you that for around
1800, but the 2300 they want is just unreasonable IMO.

~~~
intopieces
You sold me on this config. I want to be able to use this computer for a long
time, and you hit the nail on the head.

------
spudlyo
I'm typing this comment on my 2012 quad core i7 Mac Mini with 16G of RAM and
two 2.5" 2TB SSD drives. This machine still works great for all of my Logic
music production needs. One of the things I love about this machine is how
I've been able to perform my own memory and disk upgrades over the years to
keep the machine relevant.

Looking forward to reading the iFixit teardown to see to what degree folks
will be able to upgrade the machine's memory and disk in the 2018 model. I'm
most excited about getting four Thunderbolt 3 ports, not necessarily for the
increased bandwidth (you don't need a ton of bandwidth for audio) but for the
ability power external peripherals.

~~~
saagarjha
You can upgrade the memory, they’re standard DIMMs. It’s still unknown whether
the storage can be upgraded.

~~~
ssijak
You can plugin SSD disks over USB-C. Not the maximum speed possible, but good
enough.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Thunderbolt would be even better, right?

~~~
spudlyo
For sure. There are external Thunderbolt 3 NVMe SSD enclosures out there that
can read and write in excess of 2000 MB/sec, which is reasonably close to what
an Apple internal soldered-on SSD can do.

Given the prices of internal storage from Apple (a $1400 upgrade for 2TB
ouch!) I think this is the route I would go.

------
brian-armstrong
Too little, too late. The Intel NUC is far and away the better computer in
this form factor - it's smaller, faster and cheaper. Also there's a better
chance that it will receive an upgrade sooner than 6 years from now.

~~~
millstone
The Mac Mini is using full desktop components, not NUC laptop components.
That's why it supports 4 times as much RAM, Thunderbolt 3, and a 65 watt CPU
compared to the 25 watt NUCs.

~~~
brian-armstrong
The NUC CPU is 45 watt, IIRC

~~~
graedus
Depends on which model. I got one earlier this year with a 7th gen core i5
processor: NUC7i5BNH with a i5-7260U, 2 cores, 4 threads, 15W TDP. Now you can
get them with 8th gen core processors like these (among others):

    
    
      i5-8259U, 4 cores, 8 threads, 28W TDP
      i7-8559U, 4 cores, 8 threads, 28W TDP
      i7-8705G, 4 cores, 8 threads, 65W package TDP
      i7-8809G, 4 cores, 8 threads, 100W package TDP
    

The last two have fancy integrated graphics and only come in a larger form
factor with a skull on the side.

edit: conciseness, formatting

------
orbitingpluto
That is some serious price gouging on SSD upgrades, +$720 for 1 TB.

Best Buy price matched several 1 TB SSDs (WD Blue, SATA, 2.5") for $150
(Canadian) apiece recently. And the price difference between different
consumer SSD types is minimal.

~~~
TwoNineA
I think you are comparing SATA to NVME SSDs, which is unfair. Not saying Apple
isn't pricing them way too high.

------
yla92
I feel like $800 for an i3/8gb machine is on the expensive side. Given that it
is probably the best option to run OSX smoothly, maybe, it's worth it.

~~~
asdgionioasdg1
[https://www.amazon.com/Kingdel-Powerful-Desktop-Computer-
Blu...](https://www.amazon.com/Kingdel-Powerful-Desktop-Computer-
Bluetooth/dp/B07D8Y2F7D/ref=sr_1_7?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1540915005&sr=1-7&keywords=kingdel&refinements=p_n_feature_fourteen_browse-
bin%3A2057441011)

Yeah, it's ridiculous. Two minutes of searching and I found a box with a
better CPU, 16 GiB of RAM, 512 GiB of flash, and 1 TiB of HDD for a slightly
lower price. The Apple Tax is real, at least for their desktops.

(I have never seen the point of these tiny PCs. You can throw a desktop in a
corner where you'll never have to see it. If I'm allowed to buy a normal case,
I'm sure I could trounce that Mac for about $400.)

~~~
millstone
The computer you linked is very different than the Mac Mini. The Kingdel is a
knockoff NUC, basically laptop components. Notice how it maxes out at 16 GB of
RAM, no Thunderbolt, and its fastest chip is still a 25TDP U-series which is
probably slower in practice than what the Mac Mini starts with (looks like a
65 watt i3 8100).

The Mac Mini is indeed expensive for its specs, but it's also _extremely_
small for those specs: desktop components in a sub-mini-ITX form factor. If
you wanted to compare it to similar PCs, you're looking at the custom
offerings from Zotac, etc. which also command a high premium.

~~~
bitL
Zotac is able to put a quadcore i5 with GTX1070 into a silent case of previous
Mac Mini size, making it a very capable gaming machine even today.

~~~
millstone
Yes, they make some great machines, which are also priced at a premium. You're
paying for the (small) size.

------
ssijak
Oh my, this specs are really nice. 64gb of ram and 6 cores with the SSD that
it comes with is really not "mini"-like specs that we are used to.

~~~
xienze
I’m guessing this is the new Mac Pro. Just add an eGPU and max out the other
specs — I have a feeling the price will be right up there with regular Mac Pro
pricing.

Edit: yep, maxes out around $3900. Without an eGPU.

Edit again: I know asking about downvotes is a downvotable offense, but what’s
the deal? What did I say that was wrong or even inflammatory? This thing tops
out in Mac Pro price territory, I would not be at all surprised if this
becomes the new Mac Pro with the addition of an eGPU.

~~~
bitL
You can get a quad-core 28W NUC for $500 with TB3, so there is already a cheap
precedent that is as powerfull (though limited to 32GB RAM with current SO-
DIMMs).

~~~
yborg
How's macOS run on that?

~~~
bitL
Not sure about 8i5/8i7 as I haven't ordered one yet, but previous generations
worked like out of the box with very small changes - perfect Hackintoshes
actually. You just needed to understand how to install Clover and a few
drivers properly, then after each OS update needed to re-run a script changing
4K display timings while Intel GPU was disabled during the boot (if you wanted
retina-style display).

~~~
oarfish
Do you have a link with this kind of knowledge for persistence?

------
aczerepinski
Matching the specs of my 5 year old iMac puts this at $1,900, and I'm not even
sure if the new graphics card is comparable to the GTX 775M that Apple
included 5 years ago.

~~~
ummonk
Wouldn't the new iMac be a better comparison? The Mac mini has always been
hamstrung by its small form factor.

~~~
aczerepinski
I don’t want a better comparison, I want to replace my iMac with a headless
desktop for under $3,000. I have a second big monitor at my desk for my work
laptop and I’d love to reclaim the real estate that the iMac is taking up.

It was Apple’s choice to hamstring themselves with that form factor, not mine.
Do I need to wait for Jonny Ive to retire to buy a normal $1500-$2000 Mac that
I can use for programming, photo editing, casual gaming, etc?

------
cik
I still have the 2011 Mac Mini powering my house... and services. We were
seriously hoping this might be useful - but it fails to meet our needs.

My company buys Kingdels on Amazon, and adds HD and RAM. Same box literally
ends up costing 50% of the price (CAD) compared to the equivalent Mac Mini I
just tricked out on the Apple site. Given that we have no Mac specific needs
(but need a Unix), I'm just sad.

------
chvid
I know it has been too long and the price is upped.

But I am going to buy this.

For an always on server at home nothing beats the Mac mini. Excellent os,
excellent build quality, modest power usage, silent.

~~~
phlowbieuq
I'm interested to know what you run on this server...plex? torrent client?
file server? on-prem file backups (if so, which software you use)?

I have a small Intel NUC running windows that runs always-on and does some of
these things just fine, but I'm always looking for some excuses to upgrade a
gadget.

~~~
AnonC
I would like to use this as a file server and a torrent client. Does anyone
here have some idea about the SSD endurance or can explain with some numbers,
how long it'd last for the specific SSDs Apple is using (or even generic SSDs
as a comparison)? Let's assume I write 2TB of data every month on to a 512GB
SSD or 256GB SSD.

I tend to use such machines for a decade or longer (for as long as it doesn't
break down completely), and considering that right now using Linux on these
(with access to these SSDs) is difficult, I fear I might be out of up-to-date
options in the future.

~~~
voltagex_
That is seriously seriously over-specced for a fileserver.

2TB of data a month on to SSDs is quite a bit though:
[https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-ssd-600p-nvme-
end...](https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-ssd-600p-nvme-endurance-
testing,4826.html)

------
cupofjoakim
It's not for me but I'm happy that this little machine gets to continue with
new iterations. I guess the only question is "who is it for" and "why is it
for them"?

~~~
max76
I don't expect this product line to be the most popular mac product line, but
it does have it's users.

* A mac is required for iOS development, so it can be used as a build server for teams working in Xamarin. Possibly used in other cross platform mobile development workflows. (Who: mobile developers, Why: to run builds)

* People that need more I/O than a macbook pro can support. In addition to the I/O a MBP has this has 10GB Ethernet, 2 USB A, HDMI, and a dedicated power slot. It's also significantly cheaper than the iMac Pro, while also having 10GB Ethernet. (Who: People working in video, photography, and anyone that heavily uses a 10GB network. Why: Better connectivity)

* Groups with existing macos server applications that want a headless server with cheaper/newer hardware than the Mac Pro or old Mac Mini. (Who: companies with macos server programs running. Why: It's newer better hardware)

* People that want a very small computer. (Who: Everyday consumers. Why: Small footprint. It's the cheapest Mac for people that like MacOS but don't the need portability of a macbook or the monitor of an iMac.)

~~~
mkirklions
Put me down under number 1.

I'm dreading buying anything from Apple, but I need to compile my React Native
app.

I keep waiting for old generation macs to enter the used market to drive down
prices. Hopefully I can snag a used one, compile once, and forget about the
experience.

~~~
ralmidani
Have you considered hosted options?

[https://macminicolo.net/pricing.html](https://macminicolo.net/pricing.html)

~~~
sscotth
That's $70/month for 2014 hardware (dual core no ssd), or $120 if you need a
quad core or ssd. Prices for the new hardware haven't yet been announced.

Either way, if they keep their same pricing, there's a 12 month break even of
buying your own hardware if you don't need to be on a data center backbone.

~~~
ralmidani
Good points. Do you know anyone who offers a Digital Ocean type of service
where you can quickly spin up a machine and pay by the hour? May be useful for
people who only need a machine occasionally to compile an app for iOS.

~~~
detaro
There's
[https://portal.macincloud.com/select/#/plans](https://portal.macincloud.com/select/#/plans)

------
protomyth
If the SSD is user expandable, then its damn near perfect, but I get the
feeling they pointed out the DIMM and not the SSD as replaceable.

~~~
wmf
Because of the way the T2 works, storage will never be replaceable/expandable
in those Macs.

~~~
mcphage
How so?

~~~
mcrute
Normally an SSD has an on-board flash controller that communicates something
like NVME or SATA to the host and a protocol like CFI to the actual NAND
chips, it will also map from disk blocks (OS unit of storage) to NAND columns
and cells using an internally stored table. These chips do a lot of other
mundane things like wear leveling for NAND, clearing written cells, etc. If
the T2 is taking the place of this controller and communicating directly with
the NAND chips it would be at best duplicative of an external SSD controller
and at worst completely incompatible.

~~~
mcphage
Thanks :-)

------
thevagrant
I used to be a big Apple fan but with the prices the way they are, I can't do
it anymore.

------
brad0
Big changes:

\- 8th gen 4 core CPU in the base model, upgradable to 6 core

\- 16 - 64 GB SO-DIMM RAM

\- Upgradable to 10 gig ethernet

\- 4 thunderbolt 3 ports

~~~
ThrowawayR2
The 64GB of RAM is the interesting part. Competing mini-desktops from HP
(EliteDesk 800 mini) and Dell (Optiplex 70x0) already have a 6 core CPU option
but are limited to 32GB of RAM.

~~~
mbell
Most likely they all support 64GB of RAM. What has allowed Apple to offer 64GB
is that Samsung released 32GB SO-DIMM modules this summer based on their new
10nm process. It's still almost impossible to find them aftermarket though.

~~~
yuhong
They are based on the new 16Gbit DDR4 chips.

------
post_break
Who remembers when the Mac Mini was $499?

~~~
robin_reala
That was in 2005. Inflation already takes that up to equivalent $650 in 2018.

~~~
vxNsr
As I was watching the presentation I went to the mac mini page, it said
"starting at $499"

~~~
tinus_hn
The 3 year old Mac Mini, now for significantly less than a new model!

~~~
vxNsr
No that was the price before the update, now it says "from $799"

Three years ago (until about 5 hours ago) you could get a new mac mini for
$499.

------
AnonC
I'm kinda disappointed that there's only a single SSD option and no way to add
another cheaper drive in it. That could've allowed someone to go with the
lowest internal SSD drive. I understand Apple wanted to make and keep this one
small, but the ability to an internal hard drive could've helped a lot on the
cost front and also helped on the speed front (compared to an external drive).

In the past, I've replaced the DVD drive with another internal hard drive
(though that was at a slightly lower speed).

------
stephenr
I've been waiting for a 2018 Mac desktop of some kind. I have a stock (as in,
bought off the shelf, no cpu/memory upgrades) 2018 MBP15 that works for now
(as my 2011 had another fan failure, its repaired but not reliable enough for
work) but I'm getting tired of small screens/fewer cores etc.

I thought it was going to be an iMac, but maybe this is the ticket.

If I can just find a decent monitor to pair with it here (Thailand) it might
be a good option.

------
kkylin
Did anyone see if they said whether these machines are user-upgradable? I have
two late-2012 models that I've been very happpy with (one at home, one at
work). Compared to the 2014 "update" the best part is being able to put in
memory & drives yourself.

(Couldn't watch the keynote and haven't seen this said explicitly anywhere...)

~~~
_ph_
It seem that the RAM is user-upgradeable, the SSD not. But as it has 4
thunderbolt ports, EGPU and external storage are possible.

------
voltagex_
Can anyone make a guess at whether you lose one of the Thunderbolt ports to
have the 10gbE port? Alternatively, would you hit a bottleneck if you somehow
managed to max out all three Thunderbolt ports?

------
3dfan
Is it possible / does it make sense to use this as a Debian machine?

~~~
mmjaa
Wouldn't the T2 security chip mean an end to putting non-MacOS operating
systems on Apples hardware? Honest question .. I don't know the answer .. but
it seems like this is going to be a hurdle for Linux on Apple hardware going
forward.

EDIT: from another thread discussing Apples release today:

>You can install Linux, if you can accept that a lot of functionality does not
work. Even on most MacBook Pro 2016 models audio, suspend/hibernate, and WiFi
don't work.

[https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux](https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux)

~~~
saagarjha
You can install Linux. Hardware not working is not a result of the T2 chip,
since the 2016 MacBook Pro doesn’t have one.

~~~
Dunedan
A result of the T2 chip is, that you can't access the SSD under Linux yet,
which makes running Linux on it pretty pointless.

~~~
saagarjha
The fundamental issue, that of Apple allowing you to boot alternative
operating systems, is solved. The other problem of figuring out how to talk to
the SSD is more of a technical (if important) issue.

------
berbec
This is using a 8th generation chip. Since the 9th gen chips are drop-in
compatible, does this mean you can hack your way to a Mac Mini with an
i9-9900k 8-core/12-thread monster?

~~~
TwoNineA
They are probably laptop CPUs, 45 watt version, different socket.

~~~
stephenr
I believe he said expressly that they're higher-power desktop CPUS (reference
that the older model used mobile ones).

------
thebasa
8th gen = Kaby Lake = H.265 hardware acceleration correct?

~~~
oever
yes

------
wufufufu
My guess is that it's going to overheat before you can effectively use the six
core i7 option.

Also, I'm assuming their pricing is based on market research. So by pricing
the 2TB version at +$1400 (which you could put into a non-macOS desktop build
for like $300), they're implying you're either quite rich, ignorant, or you're
spending corporate or academic money.

As a desktop option, why does this seem more expensive than the Macbook Pro?

~~~
timcederman
The SSDs they use are almost an order of magnitude faster than regular
consumer grade ones you can get for just over $300, and I was surprised last
time I priced up something with decent performance that it cost about the same
whether buying from Apple or not.

~~~
wufufufu
They have almost 6GB/s write speeds? Also, you can get a 2TB PCIE SSD that
writes at 2000MB/s for $600.

[https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/501128/Samsung-
SSD-9...](https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/501128/Samsung-
SSD-970-EVO-2TB)

~~~
timcederman
Most drives I've looked at get around 400mb a second (I also use
[https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/](https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/)), and the
SSDs Apple use are 2500mb/s, so 6.25x faster.

I priced up the high performance 2TB SSD setup about a year ago, so I'll
concede that data point is out of date.

~~~
wufufufu
I agree $1400 seems more reasonable when compared to PCIE SSD prices.

------
ryandrake
Too bad that with Mojave’s release they already dropped official support for
some other Mac Minis, like my 2010 unibody one. I realize you can still get it
to work by rolling the dice with a 3rd party binary patch, but jeez, the thing
is only 8 years old.

~~~
ascagnel_
Honest question: how many other pieces of electronics do you have that are
still getting support after 8 years of use? I could understand appliances and
cars, where the maintenance is mechanical wear & tear and not software, but
anything with software generally has a 3-5 year EOL at this point.

~~~
ryandrake
I could go out and buy Windows or download Linux, and run them on this and
even older computers, which is unfortunately probably what I’ll end up doing
at some point. I like Apple, and am pretty bought in to their ecosystem. Their
blacklisting of older hardware is one of my few complaints with them, really.

------
nikolay
What a wasted potential! The pricing is a huge show stopper!

------
wildpeaks
If not for the fact you need Apple hardware to develop iOS apps and that my
older mac mini is excruciatingly slow with the newer macOS, I wouldn't even
consider this.

------
teilo
It looks like the RAM is user-upgradable.

------
prolepunk
I started reading article hoping for something interesting from Apple, but
then I compare Mac Mini specs to the mini-itx system I've built back in
February.

\- AMD Ryzen 2400g (4cores 8 threads)

\- 16 GB DDR4 Ram

\- 256GB M.2 Nvme

\- 1TB 2.5" HDD

\- I can add more memory, internal storage, and still have a spare 16xPCI
slot.

This runs linux and cost less than $800 Canadian dollars all in. Not
impressed. Everything is upgradable and in a case that 3 times as big as mac
one.

~~~
yborg
>case 3x as big

I don't think you are getting the whole "Mini' concept here.

~~~
rrmm
3 times as big is still a comfortable size for a small pc and a small price to
pay for using commodity/replaceable parts.

Most of the people who might buy a mini would probably buy a mini that was 3x
as big. At least for me, what I really don't want to pay for is a screen and
keyboard (as I would have to pay for with an imac/macbook/etc).

------
ryankrage77
I still use a 2006 mac mini for headless server stuff, and a 2011 model to
make use of macOS.

I would love to buy this for its form factor, but at those prices I'd be
better off buying myself a tricked-out desktop. I could probably go
threadripper + DDR4 and a 2080 Ti for those prices.

