
Spanking Is Ineffective and Harmful to Children, Pediatricians’ Group Says - gotocake
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/05/health/spanking-harmful-study-pediatricians.html
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esarbe
Abuse can take many forms. It can be physical, psychological or emotional.
Everything that damages a child permanently must be considered abuse.

That said; as long as it leaves no lasting damage, even physical punishment
serves it's purpose.

A little twist of the ear can work wonders when it comes to getting the
attention of a child that needs to do some listening.

Just be sure not do do it in anger.

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newtothebay
There's one argument with hitting the kids that I don't know to argue with. It
goes like this.

There are things in life with consequences that are dire yet can only be felt
in the long run (e.g. a smart kid can coast with bad work ethics until college
/ grad school / start up). As a parent, you can explain these consequences,
and the kid may intellectually agree, but can not fully internalize.

Hitting the kid is simply a way to translate these long-term consequences into
short-term ones that can be more easily felt. It's simply the equivalent to
celebrating milestones in a long project, translating long-term benefits into
short-term ones that can be easily felt. Why is the former vilified, while the
later touted as good practice?

~~~
jemfinch
> Hitting the kid is simply a way to translate these long-term consequences
> into short-term ones that can be more easily felt.

That's a good argument _for consequence-based discipline in general_ , but it
doesn't make any case for striking children instead of imposing more effective
consequences.

I've made two and three year olds stand with their noses in the corner, taken
four year olds' favorite blankets, made six and seven year olds write essays
and copy selected sections of books, and made nine year olds rewrite homework
and clean public areas in penance for their childish mistakes. There are any
number of ways to bring long term consequences to bear in the short term; I
haven't yet felt the need to strike these kids to accomplish the behavioral
change I wish to enact.

I also won't hesitate to yell and demonstrate anger if it's appropriate to the
situation. I call it "silverback parenting". We are primates, and have evolved
over millions of years to signal dissatisfaction vocally and respect social
order even from a young age. When I do it, I'm just acting, but the kids don't
know that. Watch cartoons for kids and look how exaggerated the characters'
emotions are; kid's often miss nuance, but they're well versed in recognizing
and responding to basic emotions.

Spanking is just plain _uncreative_. We have so many options as parents I just
can't conceptualize any situation where spanking was the best option. And I
say this having been raised myself in a spanking household.

~~~
blub
Those are some brilliant examples of disciplining :)

But... what do you do if they simply don't want to sit in the corner or
rewrite homework?

Where I live physical disciplining is forbidden by law, so I assume parents
have to be quite adept at psychological manipulation. In the end the parent is
bigger and theoretically smarter. I assume they can pick an uncooperative
child up and deposit them in their room for some very boring time alone
without toys, to reconsider what they did?

My impression is that if a parent didn't do their job to instill respect and
trust in their kids in ages 1-4, it might be very hard for them later. The
child could simply be an ass and refuse anything, including the punishment.

~~~
konschubert
You can pick up a child and carry it to its desk without spanking it...

~~~
james_s_tayler
And you do it again and again and again and again as many times as necessary
until the child gets the message.

Two classic ways to fail at parenting are not setting boundaries and/or
setting boundaries and not enforcing them.

Some people smack because they're lazy and uncreative. It's fast and effective
because it gets the desired result for the parent. But that's not without
significant unwanted consequences for the child. There is zero need to smack
unless it's something extreme like immediate physical danger is present and
you just need to get their attention. Even then they respond pretty well to
the right voice signals.

Watch enough episodes of super nanny and it will sink in. She uses the same
damn technique every. single. time. It's just consistently enforcing the
boundaries. Sometimes for hours at a time if need be. This usually is on
required for a few days and things change.

I'd say that so far has mapped pretty well to raising my toddler. It's not
always easy but we do what we have to.

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08-15
Statistics establish a correlation between a child having been spanked and the
child growing up into a stupid and/or violent adult. Correlation is not
causation.

The alternative to corporal punishment most commonly offered is to "reason
with your child". (That's bunk from the outset. We don't let children vote or
drive cars exactly because they are _unreasonable_.) But what do you do if
your child is too violent or too stupid to reason with? You hit it anyway. The
causation may be there, but it goes in the opposite direction.

Meanwhile, the alternatives offered in linked articles (e.g.
[https://www.healthychildren.org/English/family-
life/family-d...](https://www.healthychildren.org/English/family-life/family-
dynamics/communication-discipline/Pages/Disciplining-Older-Children.aspx))
sound counterproductive. No conflict has ever been resolved by "actively
ignoring" someone or something (it's an oxymoron anyway). The future studies
investigating the long term effect of that kind of passive-aggressive behavior
will be interesting.

(Just in case someone jumps to conclusions: I don't have children.)

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thewhitetulip
I find this funny. Most Indian kids are mentally harassed while American
parents don't even hit their kids. I remember being hit until I stopped
crying. And that's considered normal

~~~
craftyguy
> while American parents don't even hit their kids. I remember being hit until
> I stopped crying. And that's considered normal reply

I was an American kid hit (many times) by parents. What you find "funny" is,
well, bullshit. Consider that abuse is abuse regardless of demographic.

~~~
blub
Why were you getting hit by your parents? I could see it being abuse if it
happens for no reason or minor things.

In general I have the feeling that americans kiss their kids' ass too much.

~~~
thewhitetulip
Well, mother was "strict" so she would "discipline" me. But there is a big
difference between mental and physical abuse and discipline but typically,
Indian parents don't recognize it

But its ok. I'm over it. Whatever I am is because of my past, or rather
despite it.

~~~
blub
My parents loved me and I knew that, they sacrificed a lot for me. Physical
punishment happened rarely and "for a reason".

Looking back, I don't think I was hurt by that kind of disciplining.

Anyway, _something_ has to be used by parents to discipline their children;
give them free courses, brochures, whatever with the proven methods to get
kids under control.

I've seen some complete parenting failures which resulted in very spoiled and
rude kids.

~~~
thewhitetulip
Thing is, Indian parents think hitting is the only way to discipline kids.

But you can raise them without hitting. American kids are more independent
than Indian kids for a good reason. I've seen in movies that "curfew for a
month" (or whatever they call it)

That never happens in India. Also the new gen parents are utter failures, at
lesst majority.

Both parents work, both travel a lot to and from office, so much so that they
are weekend parents and their kids are raised by Youtube.

Or course there are good number of exceptions too. But majority kids these
days are raised by youtube

My nephew doesn't do anything unless you hand him youtube. He won't eat, brush
or anything else.

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ta1108
There’s only one time I ever spanked either of my children (one boy one girl).

Both of them around 5 years old went through a phase where they started
dealing with anger/upset by hitting. In particular mom would enforce some
limit or positive discipline or be telling them to do something and an
argument would escalate to the child starting to pummel my wife.

At first this was dealt with separating them, carrying the child to their room
and putting them on their bed and telling them to stay there until they have
calmed down. Many discussions around better ways to respond, how to use their
voice, how to manage that fire that builds up in their belly, what to do with
their hands when they feel that urge to just hit, etc.

At some point you hit a wall with these strategies. It’s like telling a child
“don’t run down the stairs” a hundred times but until they come crashing down
and get a nasty bruise they won’t stop doing it.

So for both kids eventually there came a day when they were causing real
physical harm to my wife (a small child can actually still hurt you) and it
crossed a line.

“What you are doing is hurting your mom. Not just her heart but her body. It’s
OK to be angry. Sometimes if you have to yell it’s OK to yell. It’s never OK
to hit, kick, bite or scratch in anger. In the world if you hit someone do you
know what happens? Besides getting in big trouble? You get hit back. The next
time you hit your mom you’re getting a spanking.”

And then I proceeded to explain how in some houses children who misbehave get
spanked, and that’s not how we choose to do it. But this has gotten to the
point where we’re going to try that if it happens again.

Sure enough several days later another tantrum lead to my child starting to
punch and kick.

I think in the end actually spanking my child was more memorable for me than
it was for them. But I could see it clicked immediately for them.

For both of them it was a last resort, and for both of them it was necessary
to finally crystallize that meltdowns can happen, but a violent meltdown is
truly unacceptable.

In both cases I wished I hadn’t waited as long to finally resort to corporeal
punishment because frankly the emotional distress to my wife in the meantime
was a big cost to pay to avoid using it.

It’s so easy to gloss over the true grit involved in day-to-day parenting.
Shit can get real, and spanking or not spanking both can carry consequences.

It’s easy to demonize the parent who resorts to spanking their child as an
outlet for their own frustration. I think the modern attitude of shocked
outrage to any spanking is itself damaging (even if many instances of spanking
are indeed shocking and outrageous)

But it is also possible that not all children can learn all lessons aurally,
and some lessons/boundaries are absolutely crucial to be established for the
health and safety of the child, or the rest of the family.

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justtopost
Unfortunately, until there is hard data for effacacy and long term effect,
this seems to be a strictly cultural statement, no matter how universal,
rather than medical or ethical in nature.

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konschubert
Is spanking kids not illegal in the US?

~~~
King-Aaron
Curious, where are you from that it _is illegal_?

I'm no parent, but I _don 't think_ it's illegal here in Aus...

~~~
themihai
>> Curious, where are you from that it is illegal?

In Norway I know for sure that you are very likely to loose your child for
this. The "illegality" issue is more an enforcement issue. Spanking is illegal
in many countries(in the EU at least) but it not enforced.

