
Anti-bullying program focused on bystanders helps students who need it most - anonymfus
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160202110714.htm
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alexashka
From my limited experience - bullying is prevented by having friends. Groups
of people don't get bullied, loners get bullied.

Once you develop a little circle of friends, you'll largely be left alone.

So the key is to give people enough time to develop friendships - in Russia, I
had the same classmates, give or take, for years. The students were separated
into gradations of capacity where those who got straight As (in Russia it's a
2-5 gradation, for F-A) were put into the same class after a couple of years.

This way, smart kids end up with smart kids and those who don't do so well,
end up with those who don't do so well, but then their curriculum is made a
bit easier so everyone is happy.

What I experienced in Canada is that you are thrown from one set of kids to
another every year and as a result, you know everyone but you don't know
anyone. The 'cool' kids here were determined by looks and clothes largely
because most classes were a complete waste of time.

If you made school challenging enough that those who did well were respected
and those struggling, made to feel like they need to keep up and give kids
enough time to get to know the same people (5+ years) - a lot of these
problems would go away.

Russia is far more aggressive than Canada and violence much more common - and
yet everyone I knew was ok. You come to Canada, everyone is babysat their
entire lives to a point where people remain infantile in their actions and
worldview - to a point where you need to implement rules of conduct in a
workplace. Do you really not know how to act by the time you're 25? Should've
gotten beat up a few times as a kid...

~~~
ticviking
This is largely untrue. It is prevented by having "ingroup" friends. I had a
circle of 5-8 fellow "weirdos" who I had a grand time playing with.

Collectively we were the target of bullying. Our academic excellence (and thus
copious free time) was the direct cause of being targeted. When you pound out
the 50 problem worksheet in 20 minutes, and have the remaining 30 min to draw,
imagine stories, and live in a shared fantasy world with that small group it's
REALLY easy to be targeted.

~~~
alexashka
I hear you. Where I grew up (Russia), those who excelled were put into classes
where you were challenged.

To give a simple example: when I came to Canada, I was in grade 7. I didn't
learn a single new math concept until grade 9, where we spent the entire
semester learning 'slope' which I got the hang of within a week.

That's the Canadian school program being 3 years behind in 5 years. A
disaster, and I'm not that smart.

Furthermore, I was sent to math competitions twice a year where I couldn't
solve a single problem - those who could solve those problems, were sent to
special schools where the brightest were again, challenged.

That's a systemic solution Russia had that I'm in favor of. In terms of making
it work within the system you grew up in - it sounds like you found a group of
friends.

You make it sound like the reason you were targeted is because you had free
time. If you had been part of the soccer team for instance, would that have
also been the case?

When smart kids complain about getting bullied solely for being so smart, I
have to wonder. I am the smartest of the dummies or the dumbest of the
smartest but I was also quite alright at sports, so I had that going for me.

I'd say the problem with smart kids who do find a group to be a part of and
still feel like they were in a tough spot - your parents should've put you
into a sports team or some form of athletics and that would've likely
alleviated a lot of the problems.

~~~
ticviking
So I think you're onto something with moving kids to where they will be
challenged in school. Systemically it keeps everyone engaged in the task of
learning and I wish we would adopt it in the states.

I don't think that would stop bullying, only reduce particular kinds of it.
Bullying serves the purpose of enforcing social norms. Putting people in a
situation where ability is less of a way to break norms will reduce the
bullying, but it won't eliminate it.

Quick clarification I'm not claiming I was bullied for being smart. I was
bullied for being weird. Being challenged, or joining sports would have
reduced that weirdness, and spare individual children some pain, but doesn't
really change the problem of students electing to enforce social norms by
humiliation and violence.

RE: Sports teams. We couldn't afford any of the organized sports available in
my area(all of them had a few hundred dollars of gear and annual fees to
participate in). By the time I was in middle school and had "free" access to
sports I was so behind in developing the basic play skills that it simply
marked me out as a newb

~~~
alexashka
Yeah, I feel your pain.

There is no way anyone can eliminate bullying completely as you yourself
mention - nor do I think it to be a worthwhile pursuit.

Some amount of friction is good.

Being weird is definitely going to be a problem - I have a buddy who to this
day (almost 30) has trouble relating to people and he ranks it as the number
one challenge in his life. His parents could afford to put him in sports but
didn't think it was a good idea...

You mention how you guys couldn't afford to put you in a sports club. To that
I'd say two things: one is that sports should absolutely be free the same way
school is free and two - it's a bummer that your parents had kids and couldn't
afford these things.

To bring it full circle - it boils down to the parents so often, doesn't it?
If your parents could afford to have you participate in extra-curricular
activities that you excel in, so much of this childhood angst would be
alleviated.

It breaks my heart to hear the shit my friends have gone through and how
incompetent so many parents are. The only silver lining is that hopefully -
you'll recognize how to make sure your own kids don't have the same
difficulties and as a result - the world's a better place :)

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bediger4000
"Many K-12 school efforts to reduce bullying have proven not very effective,
leading educators to wonder what bullying prevention approach works best."

Could that be because the efforts have focused on having students, mostly
those not subject to bullying, stop the bullying? My view is that only
teachers and administrators can stop it, and further that teachers and
administrators have informal policies that actually foster and increase
bullying. Teachers and administrators know who the bullies are, they just
don't do anything at all to stop them, probably because the bullies and the
teachers and admins are all part of the same power structure.

~~~
wlesieutre
The official policy from schools lately has been "zero tolerance" for
violence, meaning if someone hits you and you defend yourself, you get
suspended for just as long as they do. It's set up to let the school wash
their hands of any responsibility, but without having to have an uncomfortable
"Your kid is an asshole who keeps starting fights" / "My kid is a perfect
angel and I'm suing you for suspending him" conversation.

It's not designed to solve the victim's problem, it's designed to make it not
the school's problem.

~~~
koolba
> The official policy from schools lately has been "zero tolerance" for
> violence, meaning if someone hits you and you defend yourself, you get
> suspended for just as long as they do.

While I think most would agree that endorsing violence is generally bad, I'd
advocate children defending themselves in that type of situation. It's not the
only thing to do (someone needs to call an adult/teacher/etc) but if kids are
penalized for coming to the aid of a fellow in need, what less are we teaching
them? [1]

> It's set up to let the school wash their hands of any responsibility, but
> without having to have an uncomfortable "Your kid is an asshole who keeps
> starting fights" / "My kid is a perfect angel and I'm suing you for
> suspending him" conversation.

> It's not designed to solve the victim's problem, it's designed to make it
> not the school's problem.

Bingo. That's the issue with a lot of these so called solutions to social
problems. They only solve the legal problems of the org where they're taking
place.

[1]: _Spoiler: The lesson is don 't get involved in other people's problems._

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nicolas_t
I was bullied in middle school (though not as bad as others) and stood by as
other kids were bullied.

When I saw other kids bullied, I just stood by because I was scared that I
would be bullied more than I was already. I think in a lot of cases, most kids
are bystander who are just afraid to do anything because of the fear of
reprisal, the loss of status of associating themselves or defending someone
who is less cool than them. They're also scared to stand out by being the only
one to protest against the bullying

This kind of program helps I think for a couple different reasons:

1\. By imagining what they would do in situations when someone else is bullied
and how they would intervene to reduce bullying, kids are more likely to
defend the bullied when it happens. (see commitment and consistency by
Cialdini)

2\. Kids see other kids who say that will stop bullying in the future, they
then feel more confident that if they speak up they will not be alone.

~~~
CaptSpify
Not only that, but they are _encouraged_ to stay out of it by
teachers/administrators. Think about it like this:

"I can step in, and try to stop the bullying, and possibly get beat up. At the
very least I'll get detention. Or I can just sit-back and watch."

And, IME, the kids that were bullied, were the "weird ones" (that was me!). So
it generally doesn't improve your social status to help that kid. So
bystanders have all the incentives to stay out of the bullying.

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anonymfus
Reddit discussion:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/45sqf9/antibullyin...](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/45sqf9/antibullying_program_kiva_that_focuses_on/)

PDF from Sci-Hub (donate for free access to scientific research here:
[http://sci-hub.io/donate](http://sci-hub.io/donate)):

[http://psycnet.apa.org.sci-
hub.io/psycarticles/2016-03231-00...](http://psycnet.apa.org.sci-
hub.io/psycarticles/2016-03231-001.pdf)

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eplanit
Maybe such a program would be helpful. What I see in depictions of physical
bullying is that most people nearby not only don't intervene, they record the
incident for subsequent online posting (i.e. self attention-seeking) -- not
only a lack of empathy but a self-centered response. Society would certainly
benefit from some evolution on that plane.

~~~
saint_fiasco
If the bystanders weren't the kind of people that record the incident instead
of helping, you wouldn't have seen the depictions.

So the good news is that the amount of physical bullying that happens is
probably overestimated. The bad news is that non-physical bullying is
underestimated.

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alanwatts
The way this problem is framed is as if bullying were limited to school
children and should only be addressed within the narrow scope of the
classroom. The reality is bullies grow up and becomes adults and help run
society. You cannot separate children from the influences of society at large.

Bully: a person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are
weaker.

synonyms:persecutor, oppressor, tyrant, tormentor, intimidator

It seems to come down to the question: "does might make right?"; The same
question (among others) which led to Socrates execution.

~~~
hnmcs
Honest, critical feedback. I can't put it any other way. Based on reading
multiple posts by you over the past few days.

You're not nearly as quality of a communicator as Alan Watts, not nearly as
good of a thinker, not nearly as insightful as he.

Since you're still green, I recommend just making a new name, and then
continuing to do the internet forum philosophizing you do under some other
name. That's my best honest recommendation, not trying to say you're bad at
communicating, thinking, or being insightful, when compared to everyone else
in general.

Just it bugs me to see someone posting regularly, philosophizing, under that
name. So let your content exist, but under a new name. While you're still
green.

~~~
alanwatts
The menu is not the dinner. The username is not the user. Who do you think you
really are, hnmcs?

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NoMoreNicksLeft
There's too much cultural baggage (in the United States at least) about
bullying for anyone to be able to discuss it rationally. There must be a
thousand movies and a million television episodes (most from the 80s) where
all sorts of absurd lessons are taught. The bully is misunderstood and bullied
himself (not always true), if you stand up for yourself it will stop (never
true, often never possible), etc.

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nanoverge
I went to school in Vermont for three years, from age 10 - 13. I came from
Sweden.

I was busy surviving socially and didn't have any resources to "step up".
Every day I went to school was Terror on Elm Street.

Sure, friends would have helped. But friends are not made by an external
party.

Today I know that it is guidence about who you are that makes a difference.

This can come in many forms. But just knowing that someone is thinking about
you in school, for example, like a guidance counseler or a teacher, will make
a world of difference. I see an indifferent or inexperienced class of teacher
as a big part of the problem.

Being a teacher also means actually seeing your students, seeing as in making
sure they are noticed, seen, talked to. That will give each student some form
of strength to handle what's coming once he/she steps out into the school
corridor.

It's your inner strength that will stop any bullying. Confident ppl are
usually not targeted.

------
known
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_system)
can prevent bullying in schools

