
Mind-wandering: the rise of a new anti-mindfulness movement - ohjeez
http://thelongandshort.org/society/is-mind-wandering-an-anti-mindfulness-movement
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kordless
> This observation fits together with studies that show the best way of
> maintaining mental harmony during mind-wandering is to be able to be aware
> of the fact that you are doing it

Given that being aware of something is the primary intent of mindfulness, I'd
say this article's author is misrepresenting what "mindfulness" actually means
by using it to define something which is only orthogonally related.
Technically speaking, anti-mindfulness would be defined as the _intentional_
practice of _not observing_ one's thought or being aware of them. The quote
above seems to indicate one is aware of the process.

I live in the Bay and I have not personally observed a group or movement with
the primary _intent_ of going around trying to not be aware of what they are
thinking or doing. That happens naturally enough in people with their noses in
phones on the sidewalk!

~~~
dahart
I didn't fully grasp the irony until you quoted it. There is a name for the
state of mental harmony, when you're aware of your mind's wandering:
"Mindfulness".

Mindfulness is thus a prerequisite to wandering, and being anti mindful or
revolting against mindfulness... (Who would actually do or say that?) is
therefore anti wandering as well. QED.

~~~
kordless
Buddha would have fun with this, I think. :)

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jskulski
I'm a big fan of day dreaming, and set apart time in my day for it. I guess
mind-wandering is the new term.

But I think the article is protecting the very stressful cycle of thinking
about the same things over and over and over without being able to let go. The
old

"I should go to grocery store to get food" leading to "I should cook more at
home" to "That one time I tried to make tikka masala it came out bad" back to
"I should go to the store"

cycle.

I'm all for the embracing of day-dreaming, but that comes from mindfulness. A
calm, clear place where thoughts are free to bubble up as freely as they are
able to go.

Mindfulness meditation practice is, for me, the gym. It helps me put my mind
to that place, to focus and put 100% into whatever I'm doing, whether that's
chopping carrots, programming, or day-dreaming.

~~~
codyb
Yes, when I used to meditate (and I'd like to get back into it), I'd split my
sessions into two modes. One where I just let my thoughts go where they
wanted, and one where I attempted to focus on my breathing.

Thankfully I have no trouble with wandering attention when dealing with a
difficult task at work (although, upon success I am generally thoroughly
drained. Attempting to jump into my next task can be quite a tough hurdle
after spending a few hours in the zone intently focused on one particular
nuance of a system.) and I produce plenty of wonderful thoughts when I'm doing
menial things like dishes or riding the train without a book.

In the end, like most things, there's a bit of balance to it all.

~~~
jmagoon
Are you familiar with any specific meditation traditions? Most historical
traditions split practice into those two categories--concentration meditation,
which is one pointed and object focused, and 'bare awareness', which allows
the mind to wander as it pleases, without judgment, while observing what that
is like.

Just pretty neat if you came up with those both on your own.

~~~
codyb
Oh no, while my meditations aren't based on anything specific that I can
currently remember, those were more than certainly both read about at some
point and as a firm believer in the value of balance I never chose either or.

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danieldk
_At the root of this turnaround: the idea that mind-wandering is not a waste
of attention but simply a different kind of focus.

Could this be the beginning of the revolt against mindfulness?_

I think the article (and probably a lot of modern mindfulness courses/books)
conflates mindfulness and concentration meditation. One of the basic
principles of mindfulness meditation is equanimity. In terms of 'mental
objects' this means being non-judgmental towards thoughts, emotions, etc.
Wandering is just one of the many things that occur and when one notices
wandering, one can just observe that. If the wandering continues, it
continues. If the wandering stops, it stops.

Focus can be a side-effect of mindfulness meditation, but is not the goal.

~~~
gypsy_boots
I was having trouble articulating my thoughts on this article but I think you
nailed it.

I don't think mindfulness and mind-wandering are inconsistent with one
another. In fact as you pointed out, a key tenet of mindfulness is
occasionally allowing our thoughts to wander, but knowing what is happening,
and naming said thoughts.

In fact, mind-wandering paired with mindfulness can be very powerful. We can
allow our subconscious to come out of the shadows, all the while noticing
where it is going. The two don't have to be separated, they can go hand-in-
hand.

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aaimnr
The dichotomy in the title is false. As the article states: "This observation
fits together with studies that show the best way of maintaining mental
harmony during mind-wandering is to be able to be aware of the fact that you
are doing it." Which means, precisely, that it's a state of mindful watching a
stream of thoughts, without exerting any pressure or expectations of the
result. With mindfulness you can do everything better, including thinking -
the fact that you are aware of it doesn't mean that you overly control or
restrain it. You can let the thoughts flow freely when it's useful, you can
stop them (with some practice) when it starts to be counter-productive.

~~~
throwaway999888
Really the culture they are tilting against is the go-getter "productivity"
culture that puts everything into two buckets: productive, and not-productive.
Everything that can be directly measured is productive, while other things are
recreational at best. That's according to this 'productivity' culture anyway.

~~~
aaimnr
Thanks, makes sense. It reminds me a story about some companies blindly
following Google in introducing mindfulness courses to its employees, in hope
of increased productivity. The interesting offshoot was that some of them,
having started meditating, realized that the job is crap and they quit the
company.

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rloc
Great article. I can confirm I often come up with the new ideas in the shower.

In general I taught myself to alternate periods of deep concentration work
with periods of "pause" where I stop writing code and let my mind "wander" in
relaxing activities. I recommend taking a step back when faced with a
difficult problem to solve.

Usually when I come back to work I take the initial problem with a more
creative approach.

~~~
pqs
Are we rediscovering the wheel all over again? Millions of people can confirm
this. I also have ideas in the shower, when mindwandering. And also I have
greate ideas when cycling home from work. At work I focus a lot, this allows
me to push work and do a lot of things. But creativity comes in bursts, often
outside the office, while cycling, walking, showering, eating ... but this is
old. All this "new trends", are the same old things with new names. I'm sure
the greeks had discovered most of this millennia ago.

~~~
dasboth
I think this stems from the fact that other people's experiences are usually
not enough to internalise something. You can tell me about it for hours, but
unless I have a creative thought in the shower myself, I wont really _know_ it
to be true. Once I experience it for myself it'll feel like a genuine
discovery even if other people have been doing it for millenia.

~~~
pqs
You're right. Each generation, each individual, in fact, must rediscover the
wheel.

The problem is that our world (science, media, etc.) is heavily biased towards
novelty. Somehow, it is compulsory to explain everything as if it was a new
discovery, a breakthrough, when it is older than walking (as we use to say in
the Catalan language).

I'm tired of reading article, after article, about new old things. People
using a brain scanner to "discover" thinks we all know well.

Maybe I should read just read old books and forget the media.

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bsenftner
I am suspicious of an unintended end result with all the Mindfullness rhetoric
being published. I have three friends very, very into it, and one of them
ain't that bright. Their experience, as they relate them to me, is more like a
fear of ones own thought processes and they appear to be developing thought
phobias. I tell this person that they are misunderstanding something, because
it should not be triggering stress, but there it is, stressing them out that
they "think wrong". Anything that makes a person fear their own thought
process is really, really fucked up.

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cableshaft
I do worry I 'think wrong' sometimes when I don't concentrate as much as I'd
like or I don't meditate as often as I like, but honestly one thing that keeps
me from doing it that often is that I actually really enjoy my mind bouncing
around from thought to thought as I drift off into sleep.

I'm a creative person, and I've gotten some really great ideas for projects or
solved some things at work by just letting my mind bounce around from idea to
idea, so I'm hesitant to replace that with a still mind. Although every once
in awhile I need to relax or calm down and meditation helps with that.

~~~
bsenftner
I have been exposed to different forms of meditation, and I personally prefer
the Transcendental Meditation form. Under TM, one repeats a nonsense phrase
while in a quiet place with one's eyes closed. After a bit, a self hypnosis
occurs, and one's mind takes a little acid trip. Afterwards, about 15 to 20
minutes, I feel like a just woke from a refreshing nap and I have great
clarity of mind. Comparing this to Mindfulness, which I am not completely
understanding, seems like a completely different type of meditation that takes
one's presence (what you're supposed to be doing) into the mediation, whereas
TM is like a 20 minute vacation from what you're supposed to be doing.

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applecore
Mindfulness is backed by thousands of years of evidence-based practice and
millions of deliberate practitioners; this mind-wandering "movement" has, as
far I can tell, a couple of web articles written about it and very few people
intentionally practicing it.

~~~
lutusp
> ... this mind-wandering "movement" has, as far I can tell, a couple of web
> articles written about it and very few people intentionally practicing it.

Every scientific theory, every invention throughout history, resulted from
people "mind-wandering", imagining a reality other than the one in front of
them. Mindfulness is not the only legitimate mental activity, in fact it's a
fad with a name and some slogans surrounding one of many equally legitimate
mental states. There's nothing wrong with it, unless people start thinking of
it as the only legitimate mental activity, a human failing with a long sad
history.

~~~
tjl
One can be "mind-wandering", but still mindful. One meditation technique is to
let yourself think random thoughts, notice the thought, and let it go.

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dahart
I like this article, mind wandering as a concept resonates with me in the
sense that I believe it is important and good to spend time exploring thoughts
and ideas without any external pressures, especially time.

But my gut reaction is it's sad that mindfulness is being demoted in order to
promote wandering. It makes a good story, I guess, to have an antagonist, but
in my mind there is no conflict whatsoever between mindfulness and "mind
wandering". The insistence in this article that there is a conflict gives me
the impression that the author doesn't truly understand the practice of
mindfulness.

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dbpokorny
> You know how it goes: one moment you're reading or driving, the next you're
> off in a daze, thinking about what you should have for lunch, or running
> through to-do lists in your head.

There must be a word for this moment, when the primary focus of attention
shifts from the near physical environment to thoughts that are "mentally
near". I certainly know the subjective experience of what is being described,
but I lack the words to express it. It superficially resembles a context
switch.

~~~
ThrustVectoring
I made a gigantic leap in interpersonal skill and ability to make eye contact
when I started noticing that kind of mental motion, and started using it as a
cue to look at the person I'm talking to.

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seivan
I need the opposite. A way to tell my mind to shut up. Always overthinking.
It's a consonant buzz which makes it hard to go to sleep. Coffee helps to make
things more focused but it doesn't make it quieter.

~~~
aaimnr
Meditation, including mindfulness meditation, is such a thing. After a couple
of days on a silent mindfulness retreat of constantly watching your mind
(watching doesn't mean 'thinking') there's a moment when the thinking stops.
It's scary at first, because it's such unusual for us, but with time, when you
learn how to trigger it at will, you start to appreciate this amazing relief
that comes with it. And by the way, your cognitive functions do not weaken -
on the contrary, the mind becomes more efficient. I couldn't put it better,
you very rightly associate the constant mind chatter with stress - that's one
of the main causes.

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lutusp
> Mind-wandering: the rise of a new anti-mindfulness movement

This is absurd. Contrary to the efforts of ideologues, Mindfulness isn't a
movement, it's an idea, and there are other equally valid ideas, like creative
daydreaming. There's no actual conflict between choosing to pay attention to
one's surroundings, and paying attention to one's inner creative voices --
they're complementary, non-conflicting states.

Only in the field of human psychology can an obviously legitimate mental state
be described as an "anti-mindfulness movement", except for people whose minds
have a maximum capacity of one trivial idea.

