
Ask HN: Why are developers so obsessed with starting their own business? - gillyb
An observation I have made for quite some time is that 90%, or maybe even 95% of the developers I know are always obsessed with working on their own side-projects with the hope of one day turning it into a full-blown start-up, or at least making some passive income from it.
Many of my non-developer friends, never even think about this. Some of them are thinking about new ideas to implement in their job, but never with the same obsession that developers seem to talk about it.
(I am a developer as well, also obsessed with the idea of turning one of my side projects into a comfortable passive stream of income or maybe a startup one day)
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88e282102ae2e5b
Because it requires almost no capital to do so. You can start a company with a
single laptop. You don't need a bank loan, you don't need investors (at least
for certain business models).

If you could magically will into existence a coffee shop for free, I'm certain
the number of people starting coffee shop businesses would skyrocket. You'd
just need to come up with a unique twist to differentiate your shop.

~~~
mingus68040
But what's the point of starting a business if it can't generate revenue?
Getting to that point definitely takes capital; even if you've already built
the product, the marketing and sales costs of introducing a new product in an
existing large market are significant. Otherwise you're just gambling with the
opportunity cost of your time on the hope of an effective word-of-mouth
campaign.

~~~
88e282102ae2e5b
That's all true, but the question is why is this more prevalent among
programmers than any other group. That opportunity cost is really quite cheap
for most programmers, especially if you just enjoy the work. Worst case
scenario, you can add something to your resume.

~~~
mingus68040
With salaries of over $100k available to programmers, I'd say the opportunity
cost of a startup venture is pretty high. It takes years of determination and
time for a startup to pay off, and most do not.

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BjoernKW
Perhaps this question starts with the wrong premise. Maybe, we should rather
assume wanting to start a company is the normal case and ask what keeps most
people from wanting to start their own business.

Most non-software businesses require a much higher upfront investment. With
hardware, retail, restaurants or other brick-and-mortar businesses you've got
one chance more or less. If you fail in these types of businesses a large
amount of capital will be lost (quite likely including your personal savings).

With software businesses you can most of the times just start over. Plus,
there always is the opportunity to do consulting if your original plan doesn't
work out. As a developer you have a few fallback options whereas in other
industries it's mostly all or nothing. While this is an advantage for
developers it can also be detrimental. Most developers want to start a company
but how many actually do and how many of those persevere when problems come
up? With a non-software business you can't bottle out as easily once you've
started.

~~~
PopeOfNope
> Maybe, we should rather assume wanting to start a company is the normal case
> and ask what keeps most people from wanting to start their own business.

I know this was definitely the case in the 70s. My father's and grandfather's
generations mostly started their own businesses rather than work for somebody
else. Most of those businesses folded for one reason or the other in the early
80s.

Being a child of the 90s and growing up with stories of the IRS jailing
business owners for a variety of crimes that their accountants were ultimately
responsible for, I have a near deathly fear of starting a business without the
capital to immediately hire an accountant I trust (I've yet to find one of
those) and a lawyer I trust (ditto). Just dabbling a bit into consulting the
way I have put me at odds with the IRS and California State and wound up
costing me at least twice what I made (I didn't make much).

~~~
dragonwriter
> > Maybe, we should rather assume wanting to start a company is the normal
> case and ask what keeps most people from wanting to start their own
> business.

> I know this was definitely the case in the 70s. My father's and
> grandfather's generations mostly started their own businesses rather than
> work for somebody else.

Self-employment has fallen over the years, to be sure, but it wasn't the norm
two generations ago; by BLS figures, in 1948, it was 18.5% of all workers
whose primary work was self-employment; as of 2009, it was around 10.9%.

~~~
gillyb
Today's education mostly pushes you toward becoming an employee. It's schools
like stanford that teaching you to become an entrepreneur not the norm. I'm
guessing that back in 1948 there were less jobs to begin with, and businesses
tended to be much smaller. Also, probably starting a company was much easier -
not financially, but probably beurocratically.

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FormFollowsFunc
Where I worked previously it wasn't generally common for developers to have a
side project. It probably depends on where you work. I presume everybody in
Silicon Valley plans to start a startup like every waiter in Los Angeles plans
to become an actor.

One reason I can think of, is maybe because they can - developers have the
means to create software themselves though maybe not a way to market it.
Anything physical requires a fair bit of capital to manufacture it, where's
developers just need time. I suspect also that independence is more important
to "developer types" than to others.

Another reason I can think of is management in companies can tend to treat
developers as second class citizens which can make work unfulfilling. Working
on your own products can make programming fun again.

Also in a lot of other white-collar areas like design, medicine or law it's
fairly common to setup your own studio/practice after a few years of work
experience. IT tends to create large global companies which sucks in a lot of
developers.

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rue
> 90%, or maybe even 95% of the developers I know

It sounds like you’ve surrounded yourself with people who want to do that.

Most developers probably don’t, and are happy with contributing to or running
OSS projects, or even not coding at all.

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mahringer_a
Not sure whether developers are more likely to have ideas than non-developers,
but they are more likely to pursue them because often they have the means and
ability to do so.

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Vendan
Speaking as a developer that did turn a side project into a very very minor
income stream (pays for my spotify and a few steam games a month), I did very
little to try to make it into a income stream. My primary focus was writing
software for my own use, and for the fun and challenge of doing so. The
"monetizing" was, honestly, quite annoying.

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AndrewKemendo
I think it's because at the very basic level we hate working for someone else
on their ideas.

~~~
PopeOfNope
You're angling in the right direction. We don't so much hate working for
someone else on their ideas[0] so much as we hate working to make somebody
else's dream come true and make them rich all the while being disrespected and
treated like the hired help, like code monkeys.

[0]: Unless you have many marketable ideas of your own. Not all programmers
do, though.

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marssaxman
I am substantially more interested in finding ways to destroy existing
businesses, by replacing processes which previously depended on centralized
rent-seeking organizations with collaborative, decentralized, community-driven
processes.

It's not yet clear how one would make a living doing this, so it remains a
side project.

~~~
c22
You do it by transforming the world enough that "making a living" becomes a
fundamentally different sort of operation. Hang in there, we're all in this
together.

~~~
marssaxman
Yeah, I've come to see my primary outlet for political action as the process
of building the kinds of structures and organizations I want to participate
in, from a local level outward. These tend to take the form of semi-amorphous,
self-assembling, non-hierchical temporary groups arising to accomplish
specific tasks out of a larger ongoing network of social networks. You can get
a lot done this way and it's a very pleasant kind of experience. I'm part of a
large extended "tribe" that has repeatedly proven its ability to mobilize
substantial resources and manage large complex logistical operations with no
permanent hierarchy or profit motive, and that demonstrates that there is some
valuable body of social skills and experience present which, so far as I know,
nobody has yet laid down in writing for others to pick up. I'd like to see
this kind of thing get franchised and spread around, and I'd like to be able
to borrow from the practices of other such tribes, but since we don't really
have a name for the phenomenon yet or a body of writing about it, it's hard to
have a global conversation driving it forward.

~~~
dreamdu5t
Example?

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robgibbons
Being your own boss is a really enticing idea in its own right. Plus, the idea
that you possess the skills -- for which other people willingly pay lots of
money -- is very empowering. With the right idea, and some hard work, you
stand a chance at essentially short-circuiting the traditional ladder of
upward mobility. If you like to hack things already, why not hack your own
career?

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justuk
Developers spend their day building the foundations for other people's
businesses. As a developer, you would have to be severely lacking in
motivation to not want to do it yourself.

~~~
lukaslalinsky
That's not necessarily true. Running a business means a lot of non-technical
work that most developers can do without. For example, I don't think I'm
lacking motivation or ambition, but I'm far happier building the technical
foundation of somebody else's business and getting well paid for that, rather
dealing with all the chores that running a business on my own would involve.

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recursive
I don't think it's really generally true. Developers that frequent this site
probably are, just like developers around SF probably are. Most software
developers I know don't have any interest in starting a business. I know I
don't.

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jacknews
Because Capitalism.

It's much better to own a business, and therefore keep the excess value that
the employees create, than to just receive a salary, always held down by
"market rates", if not outright collusion or bullying.

And in tech you don't need much actual capital to do it. It's obviously a
risk, and a great achievement to build a company from scratch, deserving of
outsized rewards, but capitalism means you own the whole thing.

The question therefore maybe should be why doesn't everyone start a business,
with the rewards so skewed, and such a low barrier to entry.

I guess that's exactly what the OP is describing.

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Edmond
Probably has to do with the current booming environment for starting a
technology business. It is fairly easy to start a technology related business,
of course it is probably harder to actually succeed.

Software development is also a very creative process, which means people who
engage in it on average are probably going to have many ideas of their own
that don't necessarily fit the interest of their employer.

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k__
I know many (older) devs who don't want this.

They go to office, code what they get told, cash their (senior) pay-check and
go back home.

Some have the abilities and ambition to do their own thing. Some don't have
the nerve to meddle with the business stuff.

I understand both, the "I want it all!" and the "I just want to build things
and be left alone!"

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corobo
Because the day to day doesn't do it for me after so many years. The day job
doesn't provide the opportunity to play around with new technologies, learn
new skills (business, marketing, hell.. accounting. I've never touched
those!). I'm not even complaining about that, I get that the business runs
much more smoothly without changing languages, frameworks, methodologies every
few months. That's fine.

I want to start my own business because I want to be challenged. It's not
about the money (although I wouldn't mind success). It's not about getting
away from the day job, I'd be happy to continue there unless this thing hit
the roof (although the chances are slim). I just want to push my abilities to
their limits and then push a bit more.

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mswen
Part of it is the creative urge. Bring into being something that started in
your own mind, not the mind of a product manager. With programming I give
substance to the ephemeral. I codify and automate processes and liberate
myself and others from drudgery. When starting my own company I have the
potential to reap both the autonomy and economic rewards for bringing thought
and process to "life."

Expand your luck surface. Part of it is the understanding that while some
software start-ups succeed because of really good business basics and lots of
investment in marketing - there are others where the combination of a product
and luck create an explosion of growth. But if you don't build it you reduce
your luck surface.

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panjaro
1\. Startup Hype

2\. Feeling of lagging behind with tech trend

3\. NO innovation / challenge at current work

4\. HN

5\. Some birds aren't meant to be caged, their feathers are just too bright
(from Shawshank Redemption)

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rayalez
Why wouldn't they be?

Of course working on your own profitable project is much more fun and makes
much more financial sense than being an employee, building a project for
somebody else, and capturing only a fraction of value you create.

Obviously everybody wants to do something more fun and profitable and not
something less fun and less profitable. People in other professions would too,
but they usually just can't.

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carsongross
I originally began trying to start my own business because I had seen how
businesses work (smallish through to large public companies) and I've noticed
that people like me (not particularly politically savvy, not an ounce of
sociopathy) ended up not advancing and losing influence over both the
technical and cultural aspects of the work environment.

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cblock811
It's empowering to be able to build these things, so why not take it as far as
we can? I know plenty of nontechnical people who want to start a business but
the barrier is usually...technology. They can't build it themselves.

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sawantuday
1\. Because its much easy to start a software business 2\. Developers always
think that the other guy is doing something wrong and they can do better than
him. Most of developers start business very similar to one they are working
for.

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edoceo
Building software for your own builds your obsession for the thing you
created. Its your baby. The side project quickly morphs into obsession because
of the dopamine release that comes from seeing your creation work.

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sudeepj
This is not unique to developers. I can say for my country (India) that every
doctor "dreams" to start his own hospital. Every CA or lawyer wants to
establish his/her own firm.

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bbcbasic
I have found the opposite actually. I find developers not talking about
starting their own business, while non-techie people want to do it. Another
data point for you. Outside of US though.

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joshuapants
I think a measure of independence is very appealing, especially if your career
so far has involved sitting in a cubicle doing uninteresting work for other
people.

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bwh2
Leverage is very appealing - the idea that a single developer working
independently can support thousands or millions of users.

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rajeshmr
Ideas are plenty, its execution ( + speed ) which is a bottleneck. Developers
are in a better position to prototype ideas and refine them. Most if not all
developers want to be their own bosses, cos well they have bad bosses.

Having worked in the so called corporate world, for what seems like eternity,
i could say with some confidence that the monotony beats the creative
potential out of a developer. I have contemplated quitting technology quite a
lot of times, its the passion for technology that keeps me going. I keep
telling myself, i ll find my way out of this rabbit hole.

This urge to be the artist that you truly are, the creative process of
building software, the art of visualizing the outcome before writing a line of
code, the vision of doing amazing stuff, not just building software and being
stuck in an endless loop of maintenance and bug fixes - is part of the reason
some developers wish to try running their own businesses.

Rotting in a cubicle, with no say as to what could or could not be done,
Technology decisions driven by sales and management team rather than the other
way around, "works" is better than optimizations / solving for future with
good design. - I am sure you would have come across all of these and thats
precisely the reason some want to get out of this insane loop of madness is
part of the reason why at least i want to start my own venture.

Another thing is that, as companies grow bigger they tend to lose sight on
their initial vision / mission statements and also the culture kind of
dilutes. Culture is everything. And building the kind of culture you would
love to work in, is also a reason for aspiring to start your own venture. You
as a developer clearly see whats not working, and you want to change that.

Another management crap that bothers at least myself a big time : recruiting
people for numbers in the name of growth. how is number of people employed to
do a job related to growth ? This is bullish in every sense. Hire top talents
and get them to work. The arse kissing culture is very evident in these kinda
growth scenes, where the management wants to please their higher-ups!

Processes : The things we do for the sake of doing! Another reason.

As steve jobs would say, this world was created by people no smarter than you
- and you can change things! You will find yourself in situations, where you
see that things could have been done better.

I don't want this reply to sound like a rant ( although it somewhat is! ) but
i could think of these almost immediately when i read your question. All these
and many more contribute to the desire developers feel to starting their own
business.

I gave this answer from the vantage point of a guy working in a "job".

~~~
rajeshmr
[ I am replying to myself, since i couldn't edit my comment anymore ;) ]

I said "Having worked in the so called corporate world, for what seems like
eternity.."

The truth is, i have only around 6+ years of experience. The irony ? I am
already feeling the heaviness of working for a "job". This heaviness is
driving me to take back control of my life and design my own future rather
than "settling" for mediocrity!

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ctulek
A follow up question: How many developers want to work in a startup that
another developer started?

~~~
gillyb
I think many developers would do so, the more important question is if the
startup they're working for is also something they believe in, or at least
believe can be successful, and how much 'say' they will have in the process of
development in the other's startup.

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jacques_chester
Developers have means and motive.

