
Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife - diggan
http://www.listsofnote.com/2012/04/einsteins-demands.html#
======
jacquesm
Lots of judgments in this thread.

Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. And keep in mind
that we're looking at all this from almost a century later and that society
has moved on quite a bit. Things that my grandparents would have considered
perfectly a-ok would look ridiculous to you and me. Context is everything.

In plenty of places in the world this would be an 'amicable arrangement' even
today.

Mote, beam, eye etc.

Without knowing what went on before this it is _very_ hard to judge the list.
Maybe they reached a stage of armistice and decided to live like this for the
sake of their kids. Whatever it was, it spells out tragedy rather than malice.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
Since I seem to be the target of this comment I'll respond.

Einstein was human. The purpose of using the phrases "womanizer" and
"demanding jerk" was emotional -- we think of our heroes in pure terms. To
associate them with negative judgmental phrases (such that we might easily use
with anybody else in the world we meet) causes us distress.

And from what I understand, Einstein chased women all his life, even during
his second marriage. How he and his second wife got along with this is
anybody's guess.

But to focus on Einstein or his faults (or my easy judgement of him) is to
miss the point. We read this list and we feel disjointed -- cognitive
dissonance. How can such a great man speak like this to one who loves him? The
reaction shouldn't be to start naval-gazing at our on judgment of others. The
reaction should be to realize that we have only a very simple and cartoonish
view of the world. People who did a lot of good in the world had some really
big flaws. People who did a lot of evil in the world had redeeming qualities.
If we really want to understand these folks, we need to see them in their own
terms, not how mass media portrays them.

Perhaps some folks want to canonize some and demonize others. I much prefer to
live in a world full of folks just like me -- human. The more I start glossing
over faults? The more I'm missing out on all the good parts of history.

Look. Einstein was a womanizer. Galileo was a bit of a jerk. Newton was
unhealthily obsesses with numbers. Martin Luther King Jr also chased women.
Hell Nash was officially certifiable. If the only thing you get out of all my
statements is that I'm judgmental, you're missing the point. Worse yet your'e
missing all the good stuff, the parts of history people don't talk about. I'm
not saying these men are bad; I'm saying they're just like the rest of us.

~~~
jacquesm
The problem isn't a judgment per se, it is judging based on evidence ripped
completely out of time and place. Context is missing here and without that
context you really can't say at all whether this was either a jerk making
demands or someone exhibiting the patience of a saint. Even with a biography
as a guide you _still_ can't make a call like that.

The private affairs between two people are best left alone unless you get an
active invitation from both participants to state what you think, and even
then you're going to have to work really hard to figure out what an objective
viewpoint would be. Judging is easy, deciding when explicitly not to judge is
a lot harder.

And I wasn't judging you either ;)

~~~
DanielBMarkham
I think we are talking past each other. If I knew Einstein, if he were alive
today, then certainly what you say is true. Additionally, if I were trying to
impeach him or his works, such as the attacks that Thomas Jefferson gets when
we talk about slavery, then you would also have a point.

But I'm not trying to slander the man, I'm trying to understand him.

When I was a kid I used to be interested in General Patton of WWII. After a
long spell of hero worship, I came to know more and more about the man.
Finally I had an epiphany: he was really an asshole. Men who were under his
command would have shot him. Many times. The people he reported to could
barely manage him. He was an arrogant, self-centered, SOB.

But that didn't make Patton bad. That made Patton _interesting_. Yes, he was a
son of a bitch, but damnit, he was _our_ son of a bitch. :)

~~~
jacquesm
> I'm trying to understand him.

You may have to simply live with not being able to. Both because of a lack of
cultural connection and because you weren't there when it happened.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
By this same token, we can never really understand anybody, since we never can
fully understand what it's like to be them.

Getting a little deep for me early on a Tuesday morning, jacques. If your name
really is jacques (which I can't be sure of) :)

~~~
jacquesm
You can try to make it ridiculous but I actually was not aiming at anything
'deep' or philosophical, merely indicating that there is a problem with the
method used to gain the required level of understanding.

I think you can actually understand others, but you're going to have to
interact (like we do right here) with those people that you wish to
understand.

Trying to understand people that have been dead for quite a while from (very
terse) writings made in a stressful situation almost a century old is a very
difficult undertaking. The lack of access to the subject, the distortion of
social mores over time and more things like that make this from a practical
point of view very hard.

At best this will give you fractional insights into aspects of their character
it will never allow you to say 'x is a jerk' or anything to that effect. There
would have to be significant qualification of that statement.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
Simply trying to lighten it up, my friend.

No, we can never really know any historical figure or event. The most we can
do is try to learn what we can and hope that it has an emotional impact on us.
If you really want a historical person to have the most influence possible in
your life, you should strive to learn both the good and bad things about them
-- not in terms of dates and facts, but in terms of how they _thought_ about
things.

Reading about historical figures should be an emotional experience. You should
try to empathize and feel the things they felt. This is, of necessity going to
cause you some discomfort as well.

Not only is it possible to say "X is a jerk", but it is _necessary_. Otherwise
people from the past are just little cardboard cutouts in a sea of data. Fan
of Plato? Then you should not only know his works, you should have a personal
feeling of how you view the way he thinks about things. Yes, this is
imaginary, but it's also necessary. History is not just a list of famous guys
doing things on certain dates. It's something you, personally, should use your
imagination to dive into and enjoy.

History is fun. People are complex. We use our imagination and comprehension
and passion to drive us towards better understanding of historical figures and
their actions. This is the good part.

I'll bow out. Seems like you are making some other kind of point about really
knowing what's in the heart of others and judging those we may never
culturally understand. That really has nothing to do with anything. I say grab
onto somebody in history you admire and dive deep into their personal and
emotional life. Make your own judgments, ask yourself how you would have acted
in similar circumstances. Learn and respect both the good and the bad. Have
passion.

Thanks for the chat!

------
mladenkovacevic
As the resident Serb here I should point out a Wikipedia page on Mileva Maric
who was a brilliant scientific mind in her own right:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mileva_Maric> There are even some theories that
she helped him early on in his career although there is no strong evidence to
support that theory. As part of the divorce agreement Einstein made with
Mileva, his Nobel Prize money was transferred to her and in trust for their
two sons.

~~~
klepra
Why are Serbs always pointing out their nationality?

~~~
gardarh
Perhaps a majority of people posting on HN are Serbs but only a small
proportion of them declare their nationality.

~~~
klepra
Maybe.

------
sarah2079
This makes him sound like a jerk, but man was life tough for couples who
stopped getting along back when men did all the income earning and women did
all the child care and housework. This actually seems like an OK arrangement
when you think about it in that context, they were both holding up their ends
of the bargain. It just makes me glad that both men and women are more
independent these days.

------
zoba
Differently from most other comments, I didn't see this as Einstein being a
jerk. I more feel compassion for him since, to me, this list is like an
admission of his solitude.

It must be quite lonely being so unique as Einstein. Most people have a hard
enough time finding someone who they can relate to. When you're as publicly
distinguished as he was I imagine finding someone to relate to must've felt
entirely hopeless. Particularly since she was a bright woman, and 'on paper'
should've been a good match and now it wasn't working out.

Einstein's second marriage was with his cousin which could be seen as more
evidence of his desire to be able to relate to someone. Having family history
probably helped them feel close, and he probably gave up on someone being able
to relate to his intellectual pursuits by that time.

Unfortunately I don't have any hard evidence to point to support my ideas. I
have been thinking of this since Steve Jobs died and have been wondering how
such unique people like him, Einstein, and others dealt with not being able to
feel true connection with another human being.

~~~
unreal37
Now way off topic, but I don't think Steve Jobs is comparable to Einstein in
the same way. Einstein needed long months of solitude to come up with his
formulas, which must have been brutal on his family and friend relationships.
Steve Jobs had other people execute his vision.

~~~
freework
I think there are two types of 'geniuses'. One type is 'people geniuses'.
These are people like Steve Jobs, Ronald Reagan, Sarah Palin, Billy Mays, etc.
These people are geniuses in the way they were able to understand people and
get the to do things (vote for them, buy their products). The other type of
genius are the 'systems genius'. These are people like Tesla, Einstein,
Newton, etc. The first group are not renown for their intelligence, the second
group are not renown for their people skills.

------
DanielBMarkham
I had heard a while ago that Einstein was a womanizer. Looks like he was a
demanding jerk as well.

Just goes to show that there is usually a huge difference between what we
think of historical figures and how they actually were.

It's interesting how much we want our heroes to be pure and spotless -- unlike
any other humans we encounter.

~~~
hgnb
As a sole breadwinner,married to a woman who belittles me in front of our
children, who, despite having full-time domestic help, grudgingly provides me
with meals, who swings between extreme emotional neediness and rejection for
weeks at a time and who occasionally physically attacks me in rages (she was
diagnosed with a psychological disorder, but treatment is blocked by her
family), I wish I could produce a list like that.

I don't know if Einstein's marriage was similar to mine. Maybe he was a
demanding jerk, but the possibility does exist that he was reacting to the
circumstances he found himself in.

~~~
georgeorwell
Assuming you truly have the desire to change things and that you actually want
help, here is some unsolicited advice: go into individual therapy for yourself
and if possible try to start couple's therapy too. Look for long-term once-a-
week therapy and don't be afraid to shop around for therapists because it's
important that you like the person.

If that seems too daunting, order The Emotionally Abusive Relationship by
Beverly Engel or get it out of the library. It's a good starting point and in
general books written by therapists are a great complement to therapy.

[http://www.amazon.com/Emotionally-Abusive-Relationship-
Abuse...](http://www.amazon.com/Emotionally-Abusive-Relationship-Abused-
Abusing/dp/0471454036)

If not for yourself, do this for your children, who suffer as much as you - if
only because you and your wife are so important to them - but are helpless to
change the situation.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
If mental illness is involved, you'll need more than just therapy. Treatment,
patience, and...luck? Anyways, this isn't the place for relationship advice,
and we are hardly qualified to give it.

~~~
georgeorwell
When someone makes what I perceive as a thinly-veiled cry for help, I tend to
ignore whatever rules there may be and do what I can to point them in the
right direction towards getting some. The guy registered the account to write
that.

You don't need to be qualified as a mental health professional to recommend
psychotherapy. If a man here complained of symptoms that made it sound like he
was having a heart attack, we'd all tell him to go see a doctor, and to me
this is no different.

And although the wife may need a psychiatrist and medication (I assume this is
what "treatment" means), I was writing to the husband here who in my non-
professional opinion needs help of his own, simply by virtue of being in the
relationship with her. And for this talk therapy may be enough. (Obviously
patience and luck are nice.)

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Yet your advice is very typical. Its like telling a guy whose talking about
the heart attack he had last week to go see a doctor. The guy has probably
already done that!

As someone who has some experience here (on the past kid side), results from
professional help come slowly if at all, and especially if there are kids
involved, drastic hard choices need to be made that we shouldn't talk about
here.

The best advice I would give here is preventative: carefully evaluate the
mental health of your potential partner, including their family history, you
really don't want any surprises later even if you are OK with it. This is in
addition to checking for lifestyle compatibility; e.g. if you are a scientist
obsessed with your work, make sure your potential partner is really really OK
with that. And do you require extreme order in your life to function
effectively (e.g. some autism)? Ya, that is something you also need to take up
with your partner.

------
saheel1511
I see lots of people commenting how Einstein was a jerk, etc. But somehow, I
think that list (if it's real) just shows that he wanted order (and control?)
in everything he did, which doesn't resonate as bad to me. We have no idea
what kind of relationship he had with his wife, so I think it is unfair to
judge him like that solely based on that list, more so, because his wife
accepted it!

~~~
illuminate
"more so, because his wife accepted it"

That people cope with emotional abuse in different ways does not justify
emotional abuse. As plenty of people mentioned in the thread, this was a
different time when women had less possibilities and support systems for
themselves.

~~~
unreal37
We have no way of knowing WHO was the emotional abuser, or even if any
emotional abuse was going on. That's quite a leap from what we know.

~~~
illuminate
Well, aside from the infidelity, sure.

I was saying that because someone agreed to a set of conditions, it doesn't
make the conditions necessarily okay or reasonable.

------
macey
Most of these demands relate in some way to staving off a meaningful emotional
connection, keeping things "all-business" etc. There's significant evidence
that Einstein had a form of high-functioning autism (likely Asperger's). A
signature symptom of Asperger's syndrome is discomfort with emotional intimacy
and a lesser capacity for empathy.

I can't say if that's true or not, but if you combine these symptoms with the
state of women's' rights at the time, this really isn't surprising at all -
and in any case, there are far more explicit examples of sexism from this
period.

------
001sky
This reads exactly like an employer/employee relationship. [1]

\-- Whether ironically or obviously ... is harder to tell.

________

[1] eg, no sexual expectations of a colleague (ie, harassment), no disturbing
a colleague's work/space, no insulting in public manner (of a colleague in
front of clients, etc).

------
pav3l
[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1211594,00....](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1211594,00.html)

------
nthitz
"They eventually divorced in 1919, having lived apart for five years."

Surprise surprise...

~~~
aidenn0
Presumably they got divorced so that Albert would be able to marry his second
wife that he had been in a relationship with for a while at that point.

~~~
tadfisher
His second wife also happened to be his first cousin. Interestingly, they
shared the "Einstein" surname (their fathers were also first cousins) and
would have shared it at the time they married, but Elsa had already married
and divorced by that point.

~~~
sopooneo
If their fathers were first cousins, wouldn't that make them second cousins?

~~~
tadfisher
Not necessarily; their mothers were sisters, and their fathers were cousins on
their father's side (so both Albert and Elsa had the surname "Einstein").

~~~
ams6110
Funny that when we think of inbreeding we think of low IQ as one of the common
characteristics.

~~~
tadfisher
The actual consequences of inbreeding are overblown by most. First cousins
have a 12.5 percent chance of passing on a set of recessive gene expressions,
which is about the same chance as an ordinary mother in her 40s.

------
kasra
He reminds me of Sheldon Cooper.

~~~
dm8
I had same reaction. It looks unerringly similar to Sheldon Cooper's
relationship agreement. May be writers of Big Bang Theory might have referred
to this letter to draft that.

------
davesmylie
It's hard to reconcile the popular folk hero that is Einstein with a letter
like this.

I suspect a lot of this may come from us not being in a position to judge
people from almost 100 years by the standards of today.

~~~
callmeed
What's to reconcile? You will find character flaws and chronic bad judgement
in the most successful/accomplished people–it will just be in some other area
than what they're known for.

John Calvin had a man burned at the stake. Henry Ford was an anti-semite. 8 of
the first 10 US presidents owned slaves. And, no, I don't think it's a matter
of shifting standards. Look at Bill Clinton, Martha Stewart, etc.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Considering Einstein didn't kill anyone...he did OK. No one is a saint (except
for maybe a saint, but then I've heard crazy things about Mother Teresa also).

~~~
mylittlepony
Yeah, he only helped to build the most destructive weapon ever.

~~~
toufka
No he didn't. He understood the science - and wrote a highly-public letter to
the president arguing it would be better for the US to build one than to have
it dropped on them by the Germans - already at work. But he had no hand in
building it. Keep in mind, Einstein would have been in his mid-60s during the
war, and a German at that.

~~~
bitwize
We'd call him a German. The Germans of the day, indubitably, would have called
him a Jew.

There's a _reason_ why he moved to America...

~~~
mylittlepony
He even became a citizen.

------
smadaan
Without making this about judging a specific person in a certain context, what
are the implications today?

(Some) folks seem to suggest that since Einstein was working on something as
significance as GR, the solitude prioritized over family made sense. If
Einstein's work had not succeeded, would the justifications still hold?

Actually... the question on my mind is: every person trying to do something on
their own believes in their heart that it is the most important thing,
something that will change the world. How far should one take that
conviction/belief as justification to forego responsibilities of being a
spouse or parent?

~~~
Tichy
Doesn't a person have the right to demand solitude either way? He presented
his conditions for getting on with the marriage. The alternative is to simply
get a divorce. If what he needs is solitude, what is he supposed to do? I mean
I don't see where the guilt comes from?

------
frendiversity
People are naturally manipulative, especially in relationships, and people
naturally play mind-games without necessarily knowing they are.

A quarrel ending in a door-slam can have damaging effects on the psyche, as a
common example that most of you have experienced. It can make it difficult to
concentrate.

This just seems to me to be a typical negotiation tool during a relationship
gone wrong, trying to prevent further emotional distress. Nothing to see here.

------
sethbannon
The entire site is, unfortunately for productivity, a treasure trove of
interesting historical lists. For instance:
[http://www.listsofnote.com/2012/04/simple-rules-for-life-
in-...](http://www.listsofnote.com/2012/04/simple-rules-for-life-in-
london.html)

~~~
noonespecial
My favorite:

F × S = k. The product of Freedom and Security is a constant. To gain more
freedom of thought and/or action, you must give up some security, and vice
versa. These remarks apply to individuals, nations, and civilizations. Notice
that the constant k is different for every civilization and different for
every individual.

    
    
      --Larry Niven

~~~
crntaylor
The k = 0 case is an interesting one.

~~~
001sky
As is the case of 'multiple equilibria' ...

------
dyeje
You know after reading the comments on here I was expecting something really
horrific. It was pretty short and not all that ludicrous when the time period
is taken into account.

------
mcgwiz
His goal was to create a sustainable relationship with her, and therefore he
proposed a new set of expectations of her in consideration of his household
cash flow. She consented to them; she wasn't forced to. This resembles a
typical "live-in servant" relationship. The only strange part is that this
falls out of a prior arrangement/agreement that was considered a "marriage"
relationship. It's obviously no longer marriage in spirit, so why all the
judgment of it that way?

------
maked00
Poor guy, sounds like he married his mom. She must have been a real harpy. All
perfectly reasonable requests.

------
mattacular
This comes as a huge shock... developers on HN defending obviously
misogynistic behavior with an ample dose of cognitive dissonance and
mansplaining.

Also since when does staying together in a terrible relationship benefit the
children? That is a specious argument at best.

------
CletusTSJY
Like a boss.

Just kidding, this list is ridiculous and he should have never married if this
is what he was expecting.

------
sayYaeah
Or 'What To Send Your Wife If You Want a Divorce'.

------
nu2ycombinator
conditions reminded me of Sheldon from Big bang theory tv series

------
stuaxo
No wonder she looks a bit pissed off in that picture !

------
sliverstorm
At least Point D seems reasonable, he's only 75% cold?

------
Ilmarinen
Why is this piece of celebrity gossip on hacker news?

~~~
sh_vipin
Probably because it was after his divorce we got the famous quote ( which
applies so well to entrepreneurship ) - "A person who has never made a mistake
has never tried anything new."

------
wilfra
This is one of those rare HN posts that would be better to discuss on Reddit.
I doubt the community here would do anything but downvote the most
appropriate/interesting comments.

~~~
cup
Considering the post has already drawn such comments as

> " He was right about so much, you have to wonder if he might have been right
> to list-slap that gal."

you might be correct.

------
wildranter
To the individuals who are defending Einstein's behaviour towards his wife,
I'm sorry to inform, you'll be ripped off of everything you have in a messy
divorce. If you really think that's the right way to treat a person, please do
a favor to humanity, marry your hand.

Now that aside, looks like Einstein was human after all. And one full of
behavioural defects for that matter. He could've handled that in a much more
civilized, and I dare to say, adult way by just having a honest conversation
with his wife.

It's very easy to explain your goals, and why you need cooperation from your
family to achieve them. If you can't, you have deeper problems than not being
able to work properly.

~~~
wildranter
To the downvoters, I meant it as a personal advice. However, your disaproval
yield two things:

Firstly, I'm right. Down voting what I said doesn't alter the truth embedded
within. Unless you change your mind and grow your heart, you're gonna get
screwed by a divorce lawyer.

Secondly, it's just a freking integer on my screen, I like better floats! No
mater how much that counter gets decremented you're still looking at it from
the wrong perspective.

------
revgeeky
Like a boss!

------
masterponomo
He was right about so much, you have to wonder if he might have been right to
list-slap that gal.

