
Google wants to run cities without being elected. Don't let it - Caveman_Coder
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/24/google-alphabet-sidewalk-labs-toronto
======
spditner
The city and Waterfront Toronto have not abdicated anything, as reported by
the CBC:

 _" They have no permission to build anything," said Coun. Paula Fletcher, who
has been heavily-involved in plans to redevelop the nearby Port Lands.

Fletcher says she's looking forward to seeing the ideas Sidewalk comes up with
following a year's work and a series of public consultations, but warns
they'll be held to a high standard. "It has to be good enough for Toronto. And
it has to meet certain standards as far as jobs and land use are concerned,"
she said. _

[http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sidewalk-labs-
toronto-...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sidewalk-labs-toronto-
development-1.4365431)

~~~
mcgarnagle
"It has to be good enough for Toronto."

As a Toronto resident: I guess this means begin construction and then don't do
any work for 5 years, all while burning through city funds.

~~~
spditner
Well, at least Sidewalk Labs is putting some money behind it. Mentioned in the
linked article, and also in The Toronto Star: _Doctoroff said his company will
spend $50 million on a yearlong discussion, starting at a Nov. 1 public
meeting, with citizens, governments, universities and others, about what the
project dubbed “Sidewalk Toronto” should be._

[https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/10/17/google-
fir...](https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/10/17/google-firm-wins-
competition-to-build-high-tech-quayside-neighbourhood-in-toronto.html)

I've attended some of the other consultations hosted by the city planning
department, and I agree their timelines are epic. It was good however to
engage with neighbours I wouldn't otherwise and hear differing opinions. I can
understand why it can take so long when engaging with the general public, land
redevelopment can be very divisive.

The town hall meeting is November 1st if you're interested in participating:

[https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/sidewalk-toronto-community-
town-...](https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/sidewalk-toronto-community-town-hall-
tickets-39231506492)

------
burnt1ce
Has the author seen Toronto's eastern waterfront? It's the ugliest part of the
city. A friend of mine said that much of the soil there is polluted and a ton
of money will be needed just to clean it for residential purposes. I have been
rowing there for a couple of years and I'm happy that they are revitalizing
the area.

Here's Google street view of the area:
[https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.644809,-79.3348222,3a,75y,340...](https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.644809,-79.3348222,3a,75y,340.34h,84.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stKZ-
Qn_l0sacgjFZiBQsCQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

~~~
chillingeffect
I feel for you, but that's a civic responsibility, not a corporate one.

Civil governments are created with _goal_ (yes I know it's imperfect) of
providing access to resources equally. Corporations are formed with the goal
of evading individual responsibility for financial benefit. They have no
incentive to treat expensive individuals such as the less educated, the
disabled, the poor, etc. They only support them in the most minimalist ways
legally required and actually spend money to change laws to support the
disadvantaged even less.

If you want that area to be better, round up your fellow residents and get an
initiative passed in the city.

~~~
icebraining
That's what happened; the city's initiative to restore the place was to launch
a competition and partner with the winner.

------
fhood
I agree, tech billionaires should not be allowed to own parts of cities. Lets
leave that to the real estate billionaires.

~~~
RasputinsBro
I get that you're being sarcastic. But what's your actual point?

~~~
fhood
There is nothing new to be scared about. Landlords already exist.

------
cromwellian
Isn't this just the equivalent of saying Disney wants to run Disney EPCOT,
don't let it? Or that Google wants to run a Campus, don't let it? It seems
like he's arguing if you live in Canada, Sidewalk will become your mayor
automatically without any choice on your part which seems a distortion.

------
rafiki6
There was no argument being made here. Just some frivolous claim that since
Google is a big scary ambitious company and unelected we should be worried.
No. Back up your absurd claim with evidence. 1) Who's to say that "elected" is
the best approach for humanity's benefit? Has a double blind study ever been
done? Some dictatorships have flourished while most have floundered. 2) An
elected government is working in partnership with with a company (Google) to
develop a part of it's jurisdiction. Is the author proposing the government
should do it all it's self? Canadian city governments aren't in the business
of developing anything. They contract or provide permits. How is this
different than the city giving any other developer a permit to build?

~~~
mfoy_
You're "rebuttal" is equally, if not more so, absurd than any claim made in
the article.

You're calling _democracy_ into question as your first argument for letting
Google do this? REALLY? Then you ask for research, as evidence, that would be
impossible to do?

I agree if the city wants to let Google do this then so be it, but your
response to the article was even more pointless than you claim the article to
be.

~~~
rafiki6
My "rebuttal" isn't a "rebuttal". It's taking the serious lack of objectivity
in the article to task. Yes, I am calling democracy into question. Especially
representative democracy which is the only real democracy that currently
exists. The US has Donald Trump for a president. If that isn't a refutation of
the hypothesis of democracy I'm not sure what is.

In order for social and political sciences to carry weight they should be held
to the same standard as all sciences. Therefore they should follow the
scientific
method:[http://www.bio.miami.edu/dana/dox/scientific_method.html](http://www.bio.miami.edu/dana/dox/scientific_method.html)

I've included the link so there's no confusion as to what the scientific
method actually entails. Democracy is an unproven hypothesis that we are using
to govern society and has shown time and time again that it can be poorly
executed and have dire consequences. For example, Hitler was democratically
elected.

Your response to my response was by far the most pointless activity. You
achieved nothing but showing that you lack a certain awareness and might have
a reading comprehension issue.

Thanks.

------
misterbowfinger
On one hand, I don't see how this is different than any of the other numerous
influences we have in our cities through corporate lobbies. To suggest that
the way we live is solely due to the good nature of elected representatives is
naive.

On the other hand, maybe Google is flexing a little much here. I sincerely
believe them that they have peoples' best interests at heart - because that
will eventually be beneficial to Google as well. But inserting a little more
competition here I think would lend itself a long way.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Google, like any corporation, has no best interests at heart but their own. I
don't know how the idea that a multibillion-dollar international corporation
"has people's best interests at heart" has survived to 2017.

~~~
mfoy_
The interests of the people are more or less aligned with Sidedwalk Lab's
interests. So you're not wrong, but you miss your mark a little bit.

You're generally right though, that any publicly-traded company has
_primarily_ its shareholders best interests at heart. But that doesn't mean
they'll ruin their public image by doing something untowards. Google
especially seems to be more forward thinking than the traditional "quarterly
results" style company. So I think it's worth giving them a shot at this just
to see what happens. (Spoiler alert: it'll probably be the ultimate form of
sacrificing privacy for convenience)

------
brockers
It looks like the whole crux of the authors arugement rests on this paragraph:

"But cities are not machines that can be optimized, nor are they labs for
running experiments. Cities are not platforms with users, nor are they
businesses with shareholders. Cities are real places with real people who have
a right not to live with whatever “smart solutions” an engineer or executive
decides to unleash."

The reaction seems more visceral than thoughtful. Cities in many ways ARE
machines that need to be optimized; and, regardless of our feelings, are
always in a constant state of experimentation. Cities may not be platforms,
but they are certainly businesses with shareholders called voters. Businesses
are real places with real people; and while I agree that they should have the
right to live without any "smart solution" that a business would like to
unleash... my neighborhood covenant (enforced by city ordnance) already
disagrees with my opinion.

I don't disagree with the intent of the author, but she failed to make any
reasonable argument in support of her point.

------
zitterbewegung
Allowing Google to remember it for you wholesale for modernization and
experimentation doesn't seem like a good deal for what you get.

Also, when Google pulls out because they don't know how to budget for most of
their experiments after one year will still allow them to keep your data.

~~~
mcguire
I wonder if they're going to use Google's support approach?

Three weeks after they turn your water off for no readily apparent reason, you
post here in hopes that someone that works there will see it and intercede.

~~~
icebraining
Just three weeks? That's would be an improvement compared to some water
utilities I've known.

------
chris__butters
This is both cool and really f*cking scary; I'm glad there's going to be a
"smart city" or at least "smart district" but at the same time what would
Google do with this data?

I've got a massive issue regarding my digital footprint and I know Google
spreads my data like the plague if it gets chance.

There needs to be some sort of organisation that could do this but not for
profit which Google/Alphabet will no doubt get in someway shape or form.

------
gremlinsinc
I for one say let's see what google builds? I think city
management/development is something that definitely could use some
'disruption' if it takes a google/fb to re-imagine modern cities I'm all for
it, esp if we get some 'Jetson-like' technologies out of it... Like escalator
walks in lieu of public transit.

------
projectramo
If a non-tech company -- say a property developer -- wanted to develop the
land would the author have the same problems?

------
projectramo
What is the complaint here? It sounded like a very generic accusation without
any specifics on what the author believes the ethical problems are.

I think he would have to take specific proposals by Alphabet and then point
out flaws for this to have meat.

------
mtgx
This is a modern version of giving cable companies local monopoly for internet
connectivity. And we've seen how bad that has gotten in terms of the ISPs
controlling the local politicians. How much more would a company like Google
control the local politicians when it would be in charge of many more things
than just providing citizens with internet connectivity?

------
FreakyT
Honestly, given how badly literally every town/city/municipality here in
California is run, I say let Google take over for a while. Maybe we'll at
least get decent public transit systems.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Self-driving cars are expected to do the opposite of improving public transit.
Since cars can drive themselves in addition, there are actually more cars on
the road than before, and the added convenience of summoning a private vehicle
makes using public transit less appealing and less likely. An article... last
week? pointed out that Uber and Lyft have also hurt public transit usage.

~~~
FreakyT
In the short term, sure. But larger self-driving vehicles, especially combined
with dedicated lanes, could have the potentially to fully realize personal-
rapid-transit[1] concepts.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_rapid_transit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_rapid_transit)

------
aaron-lebo
_Eric Schmidt said on Tuesday the genesis of the thinking for Sidewalk Labs
came from Google 's founders getting excited thinking of "all the things you
could do if someone would just give us a city and put us in charge," although
he joked he knew there were good reasons that doesn't happen. He then related
his reaction when the company discovered it had won the bid for the
development of its city-as-a-platform model: "Oh my God! We've been selected.
Now, it's our turn."_

Google being given a city sounds like hell, but they'll probably stop
supporting it after a few years, anyway.

The grandiosity and ego of tech CEOs never ceases to amaze. You'd think
someone with so much power wouldn't so casually drop that they want a city,
too. Why don't you guys focus on your existing empire?

~~~
loceng
Grandiosity is in part how big ideas exist. The important part is balanced
with being humble and not greedy - being aware of ego and its potential
influence. If Google or its founders are able to pave way for some significant
improvement and value for a city/society without extracting too much value or
adding unreasonable cost to a society, then it could be good. We of course
can't blindly assume this will be the case.

------
rublev
When will all this annoying tech bullshit be over? I'm so tired of screens and
data and information and whatever-the-fuck. Can we please just stop at the
smart phone? There is no chance Google will improve my life. It's going to be
a disgustingly modern sterile piece of crap which is where everything is
headed these days. I want to smoke some cigarettes and have a malt 40 without
anyone complaining to me while looking out at the water. Not sip $7 lattes on
some 'smart campus' designed for business assholes.

They are a corporation. They are here to do nothing but make more money. They
are not here to make your life better. Fuck off Google, this article ruined my
day.

~~~
jayess
Thank you for summing up my feelings. I've been actively moving everything
away from Google and Facebook lately. They're just distractions to living a
fulfilling life.

------
funkjunky
What's up with The Guardian and all these hit pieces against Google? Did they
get screwed on a bill or something?

Am I the only one who feels like there's a shady, coordinated media attack on
silicon valley right now? Somebody wants these companies dead.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Or, you know, there's a lot of really valid concerns about the way Silicon
Valley companies are behaving right now and a lot of people are increasingly
upset about it.

Insinuating articles that criticize your employer have ulterior motives while
conveniently forgetting to mention you're being paid by the company being
criticized is significantly more concerning behavior than The Guardian's.

~~~
cromwellian
Well, the Guardians behavior is concerning when they are making hyperbolic,
distorted, or wrong claims.

For example: [https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/20/security-researchers-
call-...](https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/20/security-researchers-call-for-
guardian-to-retract-false-whatsapp-backdoor-story/)

This article on Sidewalk labs leaves out a lot of details and for "journalism"
didn't even bother to ask the local authorities if Sidewalk had the authority
to build or execute any plans without approval by the government.

The reality is that this appears more like every other property developer
master-planned community. Localities find a bit of land they want to develop
or re-develop, they solicit architects and builders to submit proposals.
Typically those proposals are master-planned, including commercial,
residential, and public spaces. The city signs off on the plan, and then it is
built. And like most such areas, there is a property management organization
responsible for up keap, landscaping, repairs, maintenence, etc.

This is not the same as the company becoming the "government", they don't run
the police, fire departments, schools, etc. The only difference it seems
between what Sidewalk is doing, and what Centex, or Shea Homes, or other
master-plan community builders, is that the latter are real estate companies,
and Sidewalk is a tech company.

Oooh, scary. It's Omni Computer Products, better watch out for those ED-209's
on the corners.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Your sarcasm would have a lot more punch if the similarities between Alphabet
and Omni wasn't so blatant. Good call on torching the military robotics
division though.

