

Bootstrapping Abroad: why we do it and why it's awesome - Zsolt
http://spreadsong.com/bootstrapping_abroad_why_we_do_it_and_why_its_awesome

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idlewords
I've done a similar thing as this guy, living in a number of countries for
half a year or so, usually in connection with language study (doing remote
contract work to pay my way). I've also observed American expats in those
places, and in my home country (Poland).

I think it is laudable to live abroad, and in our field we're fortunate enough
to be able to choose where to live. But with that choice I think comes a
certain responsibility. You can live very well in a place like Thailand or
China without engaging with the country past the minimum needed to get your
needs met. Basically treating it as your private hotel resort. I've seen many
people who choose this route, and I find it pretty repugnant.

If you are going to bootstrap abroad, be careful to remember that the country
you choose does not just exist for your convenience. Be respectful of the
place, and try to go beyond the role of a self-satisfied expat, which is very
easy to fall into.

~~~
yummyfajitas
* Basically treating it as your private hotel resort. I've seen many people who choose this route, and I find it pretty repugnant.*

I assume that by this, you mean buying cheap food/beer and ignoring local
culture? While it isn't my preference, I'm curious why you find it repugnant.

~~~
dangoldin
I understood it to mean that you don't treat people since you start living
like a king. Instead of talking the local people and understanding the culture
you only converse with them to get certain tasks done - maid, gardener, and so
forth.

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inaka
ok, here's what i like and dislike about living in argentina and starting up a
consulting business and building a product on the side.

first, yes, it's cheaper, and yes, the wine i buy is better 100 fold than the
states, and yes, i would say i've cut costs by about 40%. my kids didn't
belong to a private club and take swimming and tennis lessons in seattle... so
we're not taking advantage of the cost savings we could.

but it's still hard: hiring is hard. getting a good cultural fit is hard.
building a business that works within the legal framework is impossible. i'm
deathly afraid of hiring local talent because it's VERY easy to be sued due to
the employment laws of the country.

but it's great: you get a lot of time back in ways i can't explain. it's like
you get to ignore a lot of the BS that working in seattle or SF can overwhelm
you. explaining the details of why that is would be a longer post, but every
tech expat i know in argentina talks about the same thing - somehow you feel
more in control of your schedule and your life.

do it when you can hire foreigners, keep your team small, keep your
relationships and contacts with people back in the states or europe, and get
paid in dollars or euros (or build a product that makes dollars or euros), and
can come back once in a while - anything else and it's not such a great deal.

~~~
colinplamondon
I just pulled up your profile, but alas, no contact info :(

Going to Costa Rica next month but I'll be down to South America in January,
we should definitely meet up when I'm in town.

~~~
mr_luc
I live in Ecuador 9 months out of the year.

If you plan on swinging through Manta, shoot me an email.

~~~
colinplamondon
No email in your profile, but I'm really interested in your experience in
Ecuador- we're planning on heading to Costa Rica at the beginning of next
month, but Ecuador might be a way better option. Do you know of any good three
bedroom rentals on the coast? Figure we could get 3G cards and be off to the
hour a day of surfing races.

copla201 at gmail is my email- hit me back!

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kareemm
Doing this now, and also living in Budapest.

One of the biggest benefits of bootstrapping abroad is that you don't have the
social obligations that you do back home. No friends calling to grab dinner,
go to a movie, go for drinks, etc (this is also a drawback, of course). You
truly are able to control your own time. I spend 10-12h a day working, and
when I get off my computer, I'm somewhere cool (like Budapest, or Buenos
Aires!)

Having social contact is important when you're not working, but meeting people
on sites like couchsurfing is pretty easy.

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aditya
This sounds like a bad idea for exactly the same reasons as starting up in a
startup hub sounds like a good idea.

1) Easy to find and hire good people from your own network

2) Easy to raise money from connections in your own network

3) Easy to find accountants, lawyers, office space from your own network

Starting a successful business is a fairly complicated and risky thing to do,
why would you want to go live somewhere that makes it even harder? (Note: This
does not apply if you're the only one building a product and just need a
change to focus and get it out.)

Perhaps, starting and selling a business in the valley and then going on your
world tour/vision quest is a better idea, no? :-)

~~~
colinplamondon
Frankly, I don't give a shit about playing that game- success for me isn't
being Mark Zuckerberg, because I don't want to live in Silicon Valley.

1) There are tons of people who would kill to work for a company that lets
them live in interesting places around the world. We actually have some pretty
seriously cool stuff going on in this area, but we're not quite ready to talk
about it yet- I'll get a post out in a few weeks talking about exactly this.

2) Fuck that, we're already profitable.

3) Already have a great accountant, already working with a phenomenal law
firm. Office space? Seriously? I'm not going to stick around the Valley
because it's easier to find an office on Twitter.

I'm not sure if your last sentence is sarcastic or not- life is too short to
spend seven years (average time to exit) somewhere you don't like.

~~~
sho
I want to high five you after reading that ...

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paulgb
Seems the recruiting problem is a big one -- I wonder if there is a job board
specifically for companies that are bootstraping abroad? Maybe there are too
few companies doing this to make a job board worthwhile.

~~~
colinplamondon
It's actually super easy to hire so long as this is something uncommon- our
employees will find us.

~~~
paulgb
Have you needed to expand yet? Do potential employees find you through your
blog, or elsewhere? If you're not actively hiring, do you still get a lot of
unsolicited resumes from people who are intrigued by the lifestyle?

edit: btw, your personal website gives me a redirect loop (Chromium and FF on
linux)

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sound2man
I wonder if you would end up with tax issues when doing this? As a US citizen
would I pay tax abroad, or in the US, how difficult would it be to get the
requisite visa, and most importantly, how many idea spots have fiber internet?

It does sound intriguing though.

~~~
alain94040
The US is one of very few countries in the world that taxes their citizens who
live abroad.

So yes, technically you'd be subject to pay income tax in both the US and the
country you live in, but it is likely that there is a tax treaty with the host
country that will let you deduct any local income taxes paid from your US
taxes.

In practice, this means that you will pay only one income tax (but file two
returns).

~~~
idlewords
You do not have to pay income tax if you spend less than 30 days in the US
that calendar year. You _do_ have to pay any self-employment tax, however. The
rules are extremely complex and I highly advise consulting someone who
understands them.

~~~
patio11
_You do not have to pay income tax if you spend less than 30 days in the US
that calendar year._

Careful with tax advice from the Internet, folks. idlewords is talking about
passing the Physical Presence Test for the Foreign Earned Income Exemption. If
you quality for the FEIE via either the physical presence test or the bona-
fide residence test (see the IRS docs, they are fairly easy to understand),
you get to exempt the first X of your income from the _income_ tax. X is in
the $80k range this year, check your friendly local IRS website.

Regardless of the FEIE, your income is not exempt from self-employment taxes,
as idlewords said. Additionally, it has to be EARNED income, a distinction
which has VERY IMPORTANT CONSEQUENCES for people here who are intending to
sell their startup at some point. To oversimplify, earned income is the
portion of your profit you gain in return for services rendered, but it
excludes the return on invested capital -- including IP. So if you end up
selling your business for $500,000, it is highly likely that large portions of
that are not earned income, and will be taxed from the first dollar in the US.

Taxes are a minor headache for me every year, and this year my business gets
to start filing with Japan, too. Yaaaaaay, more fun.

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ahoyhere
Even forgetting the travel, the two parts about maintaining everyday wonder
and what businesses _are_ really impressed and inspired me.

I hope you'll write more.

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pyre
I know it's completely off-topic and I'll burn some karma here... Using only
titles on the current front page:

"Steven Frank Gets [...] strangers to talk to [...] Google App Inventor [...]
Phil Schiller [...] in Chinese Language [...] and why it's awesome"

~~~
jcl
Please don't. Karma is not intended for burning.

