
How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Electric Scooters - montrose
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/06/technology/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-electric-scooters.html
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grantlmiller
I live in SM/Venice and the rise of e-scooters has been amazing. The only
problem is that they can't keep up with the demand and as a result, sometimes
deliver a poor experience (hunting for a working/charged one after 5pm can be
tough).

The problem that people have with e-scooters is that they're new & different.
So many people (and local governments) hate change and do what they can to
control it. Officials and luddites alike complain about the problems that cars
cause (like congestion, pollution, drunk drivers, etc). However, when the
free-market offers a solution to the problem that consumers (locals and
tourists alike) love, the folks who want to run our lives and tell us what we
can and can't do, try to regulate them as much as possible (potentially
killing the business or hurting the adoption).

Like most things you can get to the bottom of it if you follow the money (aka
taxes). Cities (like SF) will offer e-scooter licenses (aka medallions) so
they and their cronies can make these companies kiss the ring, limit the
supply and take a big cut of the profits (which will ultimately hurt
consumers... aka us).

~~~
gyardley
The problem that I have with scooters is that I can't push my baby's stroller
down the street five blocks without running into one left flopped in the
middle of the sidewalk. I can't imagine what people in wheelchairs are going
through.

New and different is fine, inconsiderate and inconvenient is not.

~~~
s0rce
Easy fix. Allocate a few percent of street parking spots to dockless scooters
and bikes.

~~~
Moto7451
Those already exist in Santa Monica. The “dockless” part is what drives the
issue. The docked bikes usually end up where they should. The dockless
scooters and bikes are put anywhere and everywhere, even if appropriate
parking is available. The solution Bird came up with was to pay people who
capture their scooters more for challenging returns.

~~~
s0rce
Sorry, I guess I meant have way more spaces for dockless options than we have
for docked bikes. Just like dockless cars can park in many different parking
spaces.

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unicornporn
> There is no doubt that scooters could be safer if helmet laws were better
> enforced and basic safety training was provided before riding.

Helmet laws arguably does not work very well for bicycles.[1][2] Don't make
the mistake of thinking it will work better for scooters (if you can't back it
up).

Still not sure why I'd chose this over a bicycle. A bicycle gives me daily
exercise and doesn't need a battery to operate. Also, it runs well on ice and
in 20 cm of snow when winter commuting. I guess that's more than you can say
about scooters.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWhMEkMtLy0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWhMEkMtLy0)

[2] [https://www.vox.com/2014/5/16/5720762/stop-forcing-people-
to...](https://www.vox.com/2014/5/16/5720762/stop-forcing-people-to-wear-bike-
helmets)

~~~
teniutza
My problem with biking during the (work)day is the sweating. I'm all for
getting the exercise but 1) I don't have a shower at the office and 2) my co-
workers wouldn't really like me smelling like a football team. I think it
really depends on weather conditions, location and distance.

~~~
ryanmercer
So much this. All of the people on reddit that are like "I commute 25 miles to
work on my bicycle" and all I can think is "so you're the asshole stinking up
the office eh?"

~~~
unicornporn
You must be doing something wrong. IF you have problems: Ride at a steady
pace, not high intensity. Wash before riding and wear merino (not synthetic
garments). If there are still problems, change your shirt on the bathroom when
you arrive. If you're _still_ stinking up the office, I'm afraid I can't help.
:)

And oh, 41% of Copenhagers ride their bikes to work, yet I don't find that the
city stinks.

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Reedx
The biggest complaint about these scooters seems to be that they are left in
the middle of sidewalks/etc.

This is my biggest complaint about shopping carts too. That they are left all
over the parking lot in parking spaces, propped on curbs and so on. You don't
even have to walk back to the store! Cart racks are never far away. It's a
huge pet peeve.

But I've never blamed shopping carts or thought we shouldn't have them because
of it. I blame lazy/inconsiderate people. How do we solve this problem?

~~~
JoelSanchez
Here in Spain shopping carts require a coin (normally 1 or 2 euro) to be
taken. As a result, almost everyone leaves them at the cart racks (because
they don't want to lose the coin). Having "scooter racks" that worked in a
similar way could probably help, but then you'd need to walk to a nearby rack
to get a scooter, increasing the probabilities of having to walk longer
distances to get one.

~~~
scrumbledober
When I parked my lime scooter the other day (before they were all removed from
SF) it asked me to take a picture of the scooter to help others find it. I
think a similar coin return situation (ie a small credit for their next ride
or discount off of current ride) could be implemented with this picture
taking. Show them where you parked and then if they can see that you parked it
inappropriately they can start tracking bad actors and do something to
intervene. This would most likely take the form of banning certain people by
phone number or drivers license.

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jiveturkey
Jeez, what is it with the fiat proclamation of dorkiness?! First the atlantic
and now nytimes. Like I commented on that article, this must be a coastal
thing.

This article goes even further to declare the aesthetics dopey. really? they
look just fine thank you very much.

It must be a literary habit to latch on to some minority negative opinion, so
as to establish trust, then to argue the positives.

Someone is doing some really good submarining. Bird, most likely.

~~~
J-dawg
That's a fascinating idea. Since reading PG's essay I've thought I was quite
good at spotting submarining, but that wouldn't have occurred to me.

Promoting a negative opinion seems risky though. After all, isn't the dork
factor widely regarded as being what killed the Segway?

Do you have any examples of when the "negative submarine" has been done
successfully?

~~~
letsgetphysITal
The segway died because it was trivial to tip it over without a lot of
practice and training, which is not ideal for adults, and it cost thousands of
dollars to purchase.

The total outlay for a 1.5M Bird trip is a buck 90, and you can use one if
you've ever ridden a push scooter or bicycle as a child.

------
darklajid
Here in Singapore they have a very bad reputation after some nasty accidents
with pedestrians.

They're banned from the streets and sidewalks are a joke locally. I think they
would be an awesome way to commute if you have bike lanes to share?

~~~
rorykoehler
I don't understand the thought process around scooters and ebikes here in
Singapore. They say they want a car-lite society and then make decisions that
guarantees to make this difficult.

~~~
darklajid
I agree. The city feels _designed_ for cars. There are lots of streets that
are more or less not crossable in CBD without walking forever into one
direction and try and find a pedestrian crossing.

Drivers are aggressive to the point that I nearly got ran over on zebra
crossings multiple times.

Sidewalks are okay for pedestrians, but the (nice) "tables outside" culture
paired with the (arguably nice as well) "everything is sheltered from sun and
rain" attitude leading to lots of pillars/narrow ways it's nearly impossible
to ride a bike/scooter.

~~~
rorykoehler
Seeing as most roads are 2 lanes each direction i think they should just
reappropriate one of the lanes for bikes, ebikes and escooters. They would
only need to do that on core routes which are already catered for cars by
expressways. They should also introduce a test and license that let's
competent riders ride at more practical speeds than the 25kmh. I already ride
my bike at speeds of up to 40kmh on the flat under my own power.

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carapace
Dupe:
[https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/05/elect...](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/05/electric-
scooters-are-the-cargo-shorts-of-transportation/561440/?single_page=true)

Not really, but yeah: it's "native advertising".

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heckanoobs
The article really undersells criticism #2 (they block sidewalks). In their
short time in SF I saw scooters laying down in the middle of sidewalks,
blocking bus stop curbs, left in tight construction corridors, left in front
of building entrances and leaned in front of muni turnstiles.

People also take a wide berth around the scooters so they congest sidewalks
even if leaned to one side.

If they come back I hope they do it by replacing the stupid bike docking
stations with scooter docking stations. Scooters are a better fit for that
model. Pay homeless ppl to return them to the docks and solve two SF problems
at once

~~~
djf1
I suppose it depends on your neighborhood, but I don't recall even once being
hindered by a parked scooter in SF.

The sidewalk hazards I _do_ encounter (in the Mission), are tent encampments,
open drug use, and (occasionally violent) crazy people.

I'd much prefer we prioritize those issues.

~~~
lostlogin
Yeah but those are hard... Snark aside, the demographic of this problem will
be important I’m sure.

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joshlemer
It seems to me kinda played out to make a title "how I learned to stop
worrying and love X".

~~~
esolyt
I think the phrase is used a lot in the tech world, that might be the joke
here.

[http://hn.algolia.com/?q="how+i+learned+to+stop+worrying"](http://hn.algolia.com/?q="how+i+learned+to+stop+worrying")

~~~
carb
It's a reference to Dr. Strangelove (1954)

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magoon
I own one because I had hurt my foot and decided it would help for some of the
longer walks during my daily commute.

I love it.

They will be outlawed if people ride them on the sidewalks. If not, I’m
confident they’ll catch on everywhere.

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friedman23
I ended up ordering my own when I realized that the $1.75 I was spending on
each trip adds up fast. I ordered it 11 days ago and it's still not in stock.

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alasdair_
>I downloaded the Bird app, entered my driver’s license and credit card
information, agreed to some basic terms (no riding on sidewalks, no riding two
to a scooter, no speeding downhill) and scanned a code on the scooter’s
handlebar.

Right after the bit about how he agreed to the terms, we see a photo of the
author riding the scooter on the sidewalk.

~~~
sbr464
I think depending on the city, sidewalk laws are different. I think in Denver
I saw that you had to stay on the sidewalk, the road was off limits. Not sure
though.

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krechmidas
I rode a few in cities in China, Shanghai is great as it has bike lanes
everywhere we can use. Other cities make us use the sidewalk and won’t let us
use the road which IMO is more dangerous than just allowing road use. The
scooters here are supposed to be limited to 30km/h but I’ve seen some that go
100+

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jtwaleson
Here in the Netherlands these things are currently forbidden. We have about
the safest road infrastructure for bikes and potentially these scooters in the
world! You see some people driving them nevertheless, but the fines are up to
$400. Once the legislation changes I'll buy one in a heartbeat.

~~~
Doxin
They are not forbidden. They count as a "speciale bromfiets". You need a
license, insurance, a license plate, and working lighting.

~~~
jtwaleson
True, but you're not able to set up a license plate on these things (e.g.
Xiaomi M365) without making modifications. They basically go the same speed as
bikes (< 30kmph), so I think the difference in legislation is a bit weird.

~~~
Doxin
Oh yeah it's entirely over the top to demand license plates and a license IMO,
and understandably the scooters aren't made to carry license plates. Just
stating that the post I was replying to is mistaken.

EDIT: Not to mention that your scooter has to be RDW-approved which basically
means none exist.

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alex_hitchins
Surely this will burst when the cost of the scooters lowers to the point you
can easily afford one? If people hunt around for them, surely owning one would
be preferable? I'd more than likely just fall off and hurt myself.

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candiodari
What's with all the nytimes links ? And this one is more-or-less reasonable,
but their "science" ones are wtf-bad. I'm seriously thinking about just adding
_nytimes_ to my bullshit detector.

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CarVac
I ride a kick scooter to work (cheap Razor A5). I do wish I had an electric
scooter, but my commute is so incredibly short as is (half a mile) that it's
an unnecessary luxury for an already brief journey.

~~~
kerbalspacepro
Why do you need a scooter for a half mile? Just the extra speed?

~~~
aaachilless
Not OP, but it could be a sweat issue. For me a half mile is plenty far,
especially in direct sunlight and/or if I’m wearing a backpack, to work up a
sweat walking at just a leisurely pace. If I had to hurry, I’d be visibly
sweaty by the time I got to my office.

------
tobyhinloopen
Why this toy and not an e-bike? I dont get it

~~~
CalRobert
Much easier to fold and store, for one

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ggg9990
I don't need them for commuting but I just ride them around parks all the time
for fun. They are really a blast.

------
apocrypher
what's the state of the art of augmented vision and first- or third-party​
safety measures?[0],

I mean, the mods quit Brighton beach (UK ( so I've not seen a excess of rear
view mirrors lately. (the used market may still be saturated..) [1]

phones are beacons, [2]

potentially we could be broadcasting centimetre accurate position and velocity

I like the idea of roadside computing cabinets downloading local trip data and
doing the hard lifting but basic stuff like flow scheduling

how about this beacon tells you its stopping distance, driver reaction time,
gear and acceleration limits and expectations of driver style?

I am convinced that there's so much more to learn about elementary ergonomics,
about human vision not computer vision and about what open the market will pay
to attach devices to vehicles that already challenge budgetary constraints for
most new purchasers.

I absolutely would pay say $500 device capable of displaying correctly where I
am regarding the other road users and their intentions or probable because
they're on the work run same as always. for a glance

[3] I don't drive any more, but I would have claimed in my twenties that I
drove to work at a incredibly predictable pace. I doubt it could be so smooth
with the traffic today, but in suburban and rural areas, well a big pothole at
a dirt crossing sure will affect the movement of hazards. Where LIDAR may not
travel, "local pilot's license knowledge" I reckon could save a great number
of lives. The sudden steering wheel input and deceleration and acceleration
around a big pothole would well warn fast coming vehicles to not take that
lane as free, if not then used for turning right across a middle lane, so stay
on the hard shoulder instead)

I want to glance at the road between my handlebars at a projected map of data,

(only when i am glancing down. The other day I saw the Canon Eos 1-v 35mm film
camera linked being discontinued. This and the wonderful Eos 3, had eye focus
point tracking. I remember reading the brochures and thinking BS, but nope, I
remain convinced that you are going to get better results if you have dark eye
colour, not pale blue like mine

[0] my brother is a professor of transport research, whose tutor literally
created the formal discipline (kinda Djikstra for transport, but sadly despite
his traffic following equations being important, my brother and I should have
either subscribed to better peace pipes, or lived when computing wasn't infant
and so our interests not so separated. he is a Cambridge alum, I'm just either
the commercial enemy or PPE impenetrability, oh i i did my best to not get the
green corduroy jacket and lecture physics on Open University... I go on
because I know nobody deserving a real professional commercial successful
(meaning completed, delivered, used. I honestly think the nearest he came to a
product launch was resolving traffic light sequencing in Tokyo in the early
eighties, if you wanted to hire genius safe in the certainty should suddenly
genius demand credit, the last thing you ate was poisoned, to my bro you go. I
think it is because the litany of failure is so incredible. once he started
reciting funded closed European programmes and projects. long minutes in, i
realised he was reciting alphabetically by the conurbation and chronologically
since, well he knows or once did, each and every one.

I couldn't plug my brother enough,

byt my excuse for doing so here, is the fact that I can write books how to get
value from him of the order Google was paying for some feted guys tangled up
in that uber unpleasantness. The fact may be that cases like that keep my
always almost retired brother out of big business. AFAIK his refusal rate is
in immeasurable range off p=1. I would drop my life to move that needle and
get the world itself a result. (at least I can't imagine deaths in my
brother's vision of transportation future) Not would, I guarantee you
devotion, as far as the best alignment of a exceptional pitch with what makes
a exceptional mind tick that has resisted professional commercial scrutiny for
half a century. I would do anything to have him on my board if I was in the
field. Not being funny, were the closest in a combined century, but I receive
nothing. Silence. Zero... the air itself approaches 0K if i broach commercial
transport research. Sure he could be just under NDA. Just NDAs I know
displease his academic mind how rattle snakes regard dingoes. But you can take
my limitless effort to broach any possibility as my word. Any time. Whilst age
permits,be ideal..

[1] as in mods and rockers, see Quadrophenia, especially if you haven't,
especially for

[2] this immediately worries me about"throwies" and how much this matters for
potential unintended regulation consequences

[3]

CANON EYE TRACKING I WISH TO CONTROL ON STREET HUD OF ROAD USERS A series of
tiny infrared LEDs (light emitting diodes) shine harmless infrared energy onto
your eyeball as you peer through the viewfinder. Light sensors record the
infrared reflecting off your eye and calculate the focus point. A computer in
the camera then examines this data and decides which of the focus points is
closest to that point and selects it. If the camera is in AI Servo mode then
it will also adjust focus automatically based on that selected point.

