
Heirloom Chemistry Set - fr0sty
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1742632993/heirloom-chemistry-set
======
erva
As a resident of Kansas City and having visited John's store many times, I can
tell you that this guys is amazing. He does hands on classes for kids (minimum
age 7) on chemistry, archaeology, botany, geology, robotics/ electronics, wood
working, etc. Just like this kit; he doesn't dumb down anything.

I turn into a kid every time I go into his store.

~~~
ethomson
Indeed; I tend not to find too many kickstarter projects that I'm interested
in, but as I continued to read this one I continued to be impressed. John
obviously has a gift for bringing sciences to the masses.

My favorite is the "spitfire kit": "Each kit will allow users to kindle a
...fire... by using two chemicals and a drop of spit."

Brilliant.

------
csmuk
I see a lot of reactionism on this thread regarding "kids and chemistry sets".
I agree but disagree. With the right supervision, it's awesome. The latter is
key.

I had multiple chemistry sets and am not dead and have all my fingers. In fact
I was always, with the aid of reference books, mixing various things together
purchased from every day shops, purchasing piles of fireworks and doing things
frowned upon.

At my secondary school in the early 1990's we were allowed to help ourselves
to stuff in the chemical larder as long as we told them what it was for and
did the lab safety test first. It was stuffed full of small chunks of Uranium,
sodium (under oil) and all sorts of nasty shit that could easily kill you
without much notice.

Inevitably we passed that as too dangerous and proceeded to stock up on fumic
nitric acid, formaldehyde and ammonia. This was done with supervision.

About two hours later, in a fume cupboard, we had 50g of RDX (C4 precursor)
which was considerably more dangerous than the above. We carried this in a
metal flask on a public bus to local GSK labs where they did NMR spectroscopy
on it. People were interested and quite helpful there. Then we took it to the
school field and blew 10g of it up with a magnesium taper. The rest was
disposed of by the lab techns (probably by doing the same because they were
slightly nuts).

We extracted Aspirin from willow, made RDX, various plastics, thermite, did
glasswork, extracted our own DNA, made fireworks and countless other things I
can't remember now that were cool.

Now we would be branded terrorists.

Chemistry was awesome and no one was hurt. My understanding for the universe
from a physics and chemistry perspective is pretty good due to this.

I would buy this chemistry set in a second.

~~~
twistedpair
I recall lighting the dinning room table on fire with one of these. Yet... I
too still have all my fingers. Luckily my grandmother was over that day to put
out the fire before the house burned. Supervision is a good idea.

~~~
csmuk
At the age of 8, my grandmother gave me a box of matches, some newspaper and
told me to play in the garden. Shortly afterwards her shed and fence were well
on their way to being no more and I knew how quickly fire spread. Couldn't
agree more.

------
lleatirt
As a synthetic chemist, it really surprised me to see carbon tetrachloride
featured prominently in one of the pictures on kickstarter. The use of this
chemical is essentially nonexistent anymore due to its toxicity, carcinogenic
properties, and danger to the environment. I'm all for letting kids learn with
all manner of chemicals, but why bother with one that both academia and
industry have essentially deprecated?

~~~
ballard
Yup. As lovable as John is and how cool the product seems at first... The
truth is that the business model is extremely vulnerable on many fronts
including: liability, copy-ability and efficient manufacturing.

The first suburbanite kid that may choose any of these fun adventures
including: building a bomb, burns down the house with thermite or just turns
their parents backyard into a superfund site will have their lawyers put John
throughly out of business with legal costs and damages that no one will ever
offer this kind of product again. [1] And that is before the CSPC decides
which wheel of punishment to spin today.

And, I don't see a fume hood; or solid and liquid waste disposal instructions.

The next point is I don't hear about any design patents, so Joe's Evil
Scientist Chemistry Set could be produced. Even if someone doesn't personally
believe in patents, they still exist and are very much enforced.

If John gets thousands of orders how, when and where take on all the growing
pains, not just cutting out panels. Unless John is an industrial process
engineering genius, Asian manufacturers could do this for 1/10 of cost and in
1/5 the time.

Conclusion: All the best. Good luck, John.

[1]
[http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/issues/2007/december/thech...](http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/issues/2007/december/thechemistrysetgeneration.asp)

~~~
lambda
Why does he need to have a "business model"? This isn't a startup. This
appears to be essentially a hobby business; something that can be sustainable
for a single person and maybe a few employees but not something that can scale
considerably. By using CNC routing to cut out the boxes, it can scale beyond
what he could cut by hand, and thus he can offer a Kickstarter, but this
doesn't really appear to be something that he's intending to scale up beyond
the Kickstarter, just a way for him to be able to sell some of his sets to
people who wouldn't be able to go there in person and buy them directly from
him.

The liability concern is greater. He can personally talk to those who walk
into his store about safety; less so those who order this over the internet.
No one is going to be building a bomb however; all of these samples are in
quantities of 30 ml or less. That's less than the 3 liquid ounces you're
allowed to bring on a plane, and that limit was set because you can't actually
build anything all that destructive with only a few ounces of material.

I'm not sure how you are determining that there are no solid or liquid
disposal instructions; did he post the contents of everything that will be
included?

Who cares about patents here? He's shipping a chemistry set that is identical
to one from 1936, plus a couple more that he thinks are useful. How are you
going to patent that? It's just a collection of chemicals, and an instruction
manual. The patents on producing all of these materials have long since
expired. There's nothing patentable here.

And sure, other manufacturers could do this for a fraction of what he's doing.
As you point out, there is some liability concern; liability concerns are
greater for a larger manufacturer than for him, doing this as part of his
hobby business, merely because they are a bigger target. Asian manufacturers
would probably have a hell of a time getting this past customs. And again, who
cares? If someone else produces an awesome chemistry set, great! The whole
point is to teach about chemistry, and get kids engaged by allowing them to
experiment and explore rather than swaddling them and protecting them. The
point is not to get rich. Despite what you may think reading about lots of
startups on Hacker News, some people just desire to do a good job, not to
build a scalable business that makes them filthy rich.

So, the two main concerns I see are liability, and his ability to scale if the
Kickstarter is wildly more popular than he anticipated. Even if CNC machining
the case cuts down on a lot of the labor, assembly and finishing will take
time. However, I don't see this as being particularly more risky than the
average Kickstarter; in this case, he's already been making these for a while
for sale in person, so it's far past the prototype stage that many products do
a Kickstarter at.

~~~
SamuelMulder
I don't understand the liability issue. He isn't selling it as a toy, it is a
science kit. Anyone can walk into any store and buy stuff that is dangerous if
ingested or misused... cleaning supplies, cooking knives, etc.

Parents should be responsible for teaching their children how to work with
dangerous things that we encounter every day in a safe way. The chemistry set
should be used to teach science. I don't see the issue, but I guess I'm not
surprised in our litigation happy society.

------
bradleyjg
I'd always heard that children's chemistry sets got increasingly dumbed down
because of a combination of direct regulation of common chemicals, under the
rubric of both the War on Drugs and the War on Terror, and fear of tort
liability.

Is that not the case?

~~~
Pxtl
The image shows sulfuric acid right up front. I can't imagine why they no
longer sell those to kids.

However, if you think about it then as long as you provide the proper MSDS
data-sheets and get the right waivers signed, providing a one-stop-shop
chemistry set for educators/parents makes perfect sense.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
And Carbon Tetra-chloride! I'm not sure why I would want it, but I know I am
going to have it. Do want.

~~~
Tloewald
That's a very dangerous chemical. I'm not sure i'd want a kid having access to
it. I don't think I'd want it in my house. I have no problem with 1 molar
sulfuric acid.

~~~
CamperBob2
What's so dangerous about an ounce of it? They used to make fire extinguishers
out of glass bulbs of the stuff.

------
gcv
> it needs to be noted that some states do frown on its citizens owning
> chemical glassware.

Excuse me? _Glassware_?

~~~
lambda
Yes. Texas requires you to have a permit to buy laboratory glassware, under
the assumption that if you don't have a permit, you are going to use it to
manufacture meth:

[http://www.dps.texas.gov/RegulatoryServices/narcotics/narcpr...](http://www.dps.texas.gov/RegulatoryServices/narcotics/narcprecursor.htm)

That's Texas style freedom for you!

~~~
sambeau
As a Brit I'm totally baffled that Texas is happy for its citizens to own guns
but baulks at them owing beakers…

…baffled _and_ saddened.

~~~
CamperBob2
Why baffled? Any arguments that you use to prohibit one can just as easily be
used to prohibit the other.

When your laws target objects rather than actions, you can't avoid this kind
of stupidity.

------
MrZongle2
Finally, something "for the children" that I can get behind.

------
fr0sty
Here is a link to the text of the manual that came with the original sets
(warning: Comic Sans):

[http://science-notebook.com/gilb-chem01.html](http://science-
notebook.com/gilb-chem01.html)

EDIT: Found a PDF as well:

[http://keeline.com/chem/1936-Gilbert_Chemistry_Outfit_Manual...](http://keeline.com/chem/1936-Gilbert_Chemistry_Outfit_Manual_M1706.pdf)

~~~
maxmcd
The full list of chemicals can be found in the final section of that PDF,
excluding the 8 additional mentioned in the Kickstarter.

~~~
e12e
Ah, good. Sulphur, Charcoal and Potassium Nitrate -- the essentials!

------
zokier
Maybe I'm part of the problem, but I wouldn't let a kid to play with fully
equipped chemistry set without supervision any more than I would let him/her
play with loaded gun without supervision. Of course I also think that both
activities are fine under supervision.

Anyways, I really really hope that anyone buying this for a kid is also
prepared to spend time with the kid.

~~~
smokeyj
Sometimes you have to let kids shoot themselves in the foot. It teaches
character.

~~~
marcosdumay
As long as you are talking metaphorically, yes, I agree.

But there is a certain amount of danger that they'd better avoid. And, the
best way to avoid danger is by learning the safety procedures. That kit could
be used to make the world much safer (and more interesting) for them, but one
can't just give the kit to kids, and letting them loose.

------
reasonnotreason
I am pretty sure the set pictured would be illegal in the state of Texas
without registering with the state. Maybe these laws have changed in the last
decade, but they don't allow all manner of glassware.

Yep, here is the list.

(A) a condenser (B) a distilling apparatus (C) a vacuum drier (D) a three-neck
or distilling flask (E) a tableting machine (F) an encapsulating machine (G) a
filter, Buchner, or separatory funnel

(H) an Erlenmeyer, two-neck, or single-neck flask (I) a round-bottom,
Florence, thermometer, or filtering flask (J) a Soxhlet extractor (K) a
transformer (L) a flask heater (M) a heating mantel or (N) an adaptor tube

It sucks telling your kid she can't have a chemistry set because of this
nonsense.

~~~
solarmist
Why not just register it then? (Also, he mentions on his website that he's
shipped this set to all 50 states in the past)

------
rzt
Wow, I passed through Kansas City a few months ago on a cross-country move and
wish I knew about this store (and stopped in). I don't often fund
kickstarters, but this one I could get behind –– something about it resonates
with me.

------
jmcqk6
I purchased one of these years ago from this shop. It didn't come in a nice
case or anything, but it contained great glassware and chemicals. It's stayed
with me for years now. This is a great shop, and if you're ever in Parkville,
MO (in the KC Metro Area), you should definitely check it out. The owners are
very nice, and they're shop is full of wonder things.

------
codingdave
I'm confused - he already has a store, already has demand for this product.
There are even comments here from people saying they have already bought this
set from this guy. Why does he need Kickstarter? He is not asking us to fund
development of a new project, he is asking us to fund his supply chain.

~~~
Guvante
He is already making the chemicals but isn't in the business of selling
finished kits from his description.

So the difference between making a bunch of bottles of stuff and selling a
whole box with various things as shown in the pictures.

------
trumbitta2
I had the "plastic version" as a kid (11 years old)... so much fun! I ran all
the experiments more than once, and felt like I was really learning something
for the first time.

I had to wait till I got into computer science (at 18, pentium 75 era), to re-
experience such a wonderful feeling.

------
wuschel
There is a difference between using a chemistry set to learn something about
the world through analytics and creation/change of matter, and to play around
with it.

I agree with csmuk wholeheartedly that it is the supervision that counts. A
chemistry kit can be a great learning tool, but it is not something that
should be taken as a toy to play around.

We all play, make mistakes, and learn due to those mistakes. But with
chemistry those mistakes could show in the form of a hospital visit, chemical
pollution, or long term poisoning. I had the fortune to survive an explosion
in a lab unscathed, and I will not forget the day I saw my collegue burn 2
meters from me.

Proper training in chemistry is important for reasons of safety and for
scientific understanding and reasoning. But let us face it, most people do not
like chemistry at all in school. But blowing stuff up and making drugs a la
Breaking Bad is cool. When I read the words RDX, CCl4, conc. H2SO4,
Methylamine - a bit of TiCl4 perhaps - etc in this thread I imagine the kid
with sparks in his eyes who wants to blow stuff up on new years eve.

So, how can one include proper attitude towards the materials inside this
Chemistry Set without proper supervision?

------
ssshanky
I saw this vintage chemistry set at an antique store in Bisbee, AZ. It
includes a booklet called "Senior Chemcraft Experiment Book -- Instructive and
Fascinating Chemical Experiments -- The Porter Chemical Company, Hagerstown,
Maryland" and something labelled "Bryan Chemical Illustrators -- An Exclusive
Chemcraft Feature".

[http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5477/10826914195_23dc191246_h....](http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5477/10826914195_23dc191246_h.jpg)
[http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5471/10826917855_dfe388f77c_h....](http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5471/10826917855_dfe388f77c_h.jpg)
[http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5478/10826957096_a0eec5199e_h....](http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5478/10826957096_a0eec5199e_h.jpg)

I recall thinking how fun it would be to have that set, as well as how risky
it could be. I probably should've bought it.

------
aroch
Oh man, this is rather tempting.

~~~
solarmist
I took the plunge. This is a once in a lifetime chance for me. I've never seen
a chemistry set I've actually been interested in before now (that's in
production).

------
benjamta
Wow - I love this, love both the aims of this project and the look of the
finished product. Fantastic stuff!

Can't wait to see one of these recreated next:

[http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/atomictoys/GilbertU238Lab...](http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/atomictoys/GilbertU238Lab.htm)

~~~
CamperBob2
The United Nuclear guys could put something like that together. Maybe they'll
follow this fellow's example, since it looks like his Kickstarter effort is
being well received.

------
solarmist
This is the chemistry set I've always wished I could find. Growing up I had a
huge interest in chemistry, but never got a chance to play with it at all.

------
jimmcslim
Feelings of nostalgia are frequently observed in subjects discussing chemistry
sets, however this observation may be subject to survivorship bias...

~~~
SamuelMulder
True, the millions of children killed by chemistry sets don't live to tell...

------
mrossol
I just can't help but comment on carbon tetrachloride mentioned below. It has
NOT been used in fire extinguishers or any other consumer use for decades. It
is one of the chemicals specifically banned for consumer use by the Federal
Hazardous Substances Act. There are a number if issues with this kit that are
likely to be a big deal someday for this company.

------
whatusername
Can anyone fill me in on what he is likely using for this: "a "Spit Fire, Save
Matches" kit. Each kit will allow users to kindle a minimum of 10 campfires,
fireplace fires, or charcoal pits by using two chemicals and a drop of spit."
(at the $45 reward level)

------
lechevalierd3on
inches... the box dimensions are given in inches...

------
rfrey
Only ships to the United States, sadly for me and my son.

~~~
driverdan
I'm sure shipping these chemicals internationally is a nightmare.

------
Fundlab
This is so nicely packaged. I am definitely going to snag one up for the sake
of curiosity

------
jyagmin
This is so amazing, but probably dangerous.

------
vincefutr23
is mercury included?

~~~
solarmist
He sells mercury on his site.

------
auctiontheory
_Our project 's greatest challenge has been producing the actual sets' boxes
exactly to my specifications._

This sentence really rubs me the wrong way. It says to me that they really do
not think about the possible consequences of distributing these to
unsupervised kids. It's the "I just gave him the gun/alcohol, what he did
after that is not my problem" point of view.

I'm not saying that all kids shouldn't have access to fully-loaded chemistry
sets, but chemicals should be distributed with forethought, and this guy is
clearly not thinking about what harm the chemicals can do. (He's thinking
about how to design a nice case.)

~~~
eru
I think you misinterpreted that section. It's a section all kickstarter
campaigns have. Eg video game campaigns don't talk about the dangers of
playing video games, they talk about the risks of the not shipping..

