
What happens when I choose to “Suppress Ads” on Salon? - noahsark769
https://www.salon.com/about/faq-what-happens-when-i-choose-to-suppress-ads-on-salon/
======
dkarl
This is everything I wanted from micropayments. Please, take my money rather
than forcibly taking my attention and shoving garbage through my brain. Too
bad it has to waste electricity, but at least it's not abusing my poor,
finite, distractible, distortable brain. It's not precious to anyone else, but
it's precious to me.

~~~
staunch
> _Too bad it has to waste electricity..._

It doesn't waste electricity. It _uses_ a lot of electricity to create a
secure global payment network that can solve the micropayments problem.
Sacrificing efficiency for decentralization was a key design decision in
Bitcoin.

YouTube cat videos and daytime television are genuine wastes of power.
Humanity has to solve the power generation problem and processors are already
far more power efficient than they were.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Cat videos and daytime television waste _less_ power while providing _much
more_ value.

Ultimately cryptocurrencies have some value offering, but it's of dubious
utility, because you can get 99% there with a little bit of trust, and then
you don't have to pay this _humongous_ upkeep in electricity.

 _Popularity_ of cryptocurrencies is almost entirely driven by greed, so it
obscures the actual value of blockchain tech.

~~~
splintercell
Keep it in mind that Proof of Work is necessary for this initial world of
decentralized trust to be created, but after that, it is not necessary. Nearly
all the other cryptocurrencies can bootstrap themselves using bitcoin and
following Proof of Stake or some other non-PoW algorithm.

Even if Bitcoin dies, we still don't need to bring PoW again.

------
nikanj
In the crypto money flow, I get to see the page for a $0,20 payment from me to
my electricity company, but I'm still struggling to see the value transfer
from the electricity company to Salon.com.

Someone™ is paying good greenbacks for irrefutable proof of me wasting
kilowatts. The more I try to understand that part of the crypto value chain,
the more bizarre it seems. "It's a store of value", i.e. Salon.com can later
pay someone else with the same "proof of wasted cpu cycles"? What?!

~~~
ves
It’s just proof that you didn’t forge a scarce commodity. The value isn’t
related to the wasted electricity, but the hard problem the electricity was
used to solve. Love it or hate it, it makes sense.

~~~
rspeer
It doesn't make sense because it's a negative-sum game.

The only thing people are actually using Bitcoin for right now is to sell to
other people for more than they bought it (or maybe to sell for less than they
bought it to launder money).

The total amount made by the buyers and sellers is zero (because every buyer
is buying from a seller), and there has to be a constant inflow of new buyers
just to cover the cost of the hardware and power.

~~~
lrns_
Tell that to a Venezuelan, who can provide a family with a single antminer.

It will make sense to you in 5 years.

~~~
pjc50
How exactly? Who is doing this? Withdrawal from exchanges into Venezuela? Who
is buying bitcoins for Bolivars?

How did the family get the capital asset of an antminer in the first place?
How are they paying for electricity?

How is this sustainable? Why is a random family able to compete with
businesses that have real economy of scale, rather than having their margin
driven to zero?

~~~
lrns_
[https://hackernoon.com/extortion-police-raids-and-secrecy-
in...](https://hackernoon.com/extortion-police-raids-and-secrecy-inside-the-
venezuelan-bitcoin-mining-world-6e97a25e7402)

[https://coin.dance/volume/localbitcoins/VEF](https://coin.dance/volume/localbitcoins/VEF)
(example of local trading)

Remittances, family abroad (easy via BTC to circumvent restrictions). Bitcoin
is stable compared to a hyper inflation of +2,616%.

------
pdkl95
The increased use of browser mining has made it a lot easier to convince
people to globally disable Javascript (or install noscript/etc). Security
concerns are rarely convincing, and tracking can be hard to explain, but
paying for more electricity and worse UI response time are things people
actually care about.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
> The increased use of browser mining has made it a lot easier to convince
> people to globally disable Javascript (or install noscript/etc).

Has it though? Do you have any data to back up this assumption?

I can't find ANYONE who is tech illiterate who understands any of this stuff
and those that I know are tech literate either don't notice or don't care
about JavaScript. I've only ever met very, very few people who disable
JavaScript and when they do it's always been piecemeal.

I haven't been able to find any statistics regarding who does and doesn't
disable JavaScript, their group size, etc. It would be really interesting to
know!

~~~
andromedaworld
I've disabled JS and only enable it in incognito when needed/when mandatory
for a particular site. Tedious I know, but a habit I picked up when everyone
started autoplaying videos.

~~~
dawnerd
Don't need javascript to autoplay videos.

~~~
andromedaworld
On most sites you do. I do this everyday. I should know what I'm talking
about.

------
Arn_Thor
The last two paragraphs is where it gets sleazy. They're saying you'll "help
support the evolution and growth of blockchain technology and
cryptocurrencies" (a.k.a. paying Salon from your electricity bill), but then
allude to the fact that this technology COULD, theoretically, maybe, be used
for all sorts of good stuff. Never mind that what it's actually going to be
used for is, again, paying Salon.

I approve of their transparency, and I don't have a rational complaint against
the method of revenue generation at the moment, but the last part there is an
attempt to put lipstick on the pig

------
cribbles
For those unfamiliar, Salon.com is a new media company that publishes articles
on current events from a left-leaning perspective - for example, "Bitcoin
could cost us our clean-energy future" [1]

[1] [https://www.salon.com/2017/12/06/bitcoin-could-cost-us-
our-c...](https://www.salon.com/2017/12/06/bitcoin-could-cost-us-our-clean-
energy-future_partner/)

~~~
Mediterraneo10
> Salon.com is a new media company

 _Salon_ was founded in 1995 (and its close analogue _Slate_ a year later). I
guess that "new media" can encompass anything that was primarily digital from
the start, but it still feels weird to see that tag applied to something that
has been around for over two decades now.

------
bradleybuda
A decent first effort at transparency, but there's one very obvious question
missing from the FAQ:

"Will my electricity bill go up or my laptop battery drain faster when I am
participating?"

Can't help but think they omitted this on purpose.

------
PatchMonkey
Adblock Plus has a cryptominer list. Yes, it does work in ublock origin.

Problem solved? I think so.

~~~
seveibar
It's pretty easy to proxy the request to a cryptocurrency miner pool through
the web server of the main site. e.g. [https://github.com/cazala/coin-hive-
proxy](https://github.com/cazala/coin-hive-proxy)

Site owners have incentive to run this proxy so they're not marked as a mining
site OR to circumvent the X% fee that coinhive/other cryptocurrency pools
collect.

So the adblock/ublock origin fixes will only work until site owners decide to
start proxying. IMO search providers should penalize sites with poor
performance (as they already do) and site owners are penalized if they suck
the consumers CPU.

edit: Fixed last sentence

~~~
stordoff
Is that not currently the case with ads, and addressed by blocking certain
scripts/elements even if they originate from the same site?

I'd also suspect that it'll just lead to different ways of detecting miners
(e.g. fingerprinting the behaviour of mining algorithms, or just blocking
scripts that use more than a set CPU budget by default).

~~~
seveibar
Detecting a similar script should prevent the proxying from working, but if
the script is bundled into the main JS of the site (as many sites do now) it
would be basically impossible to stop w/o blocking JS altogether.

Not sure if browsers can fingerprint script execution patterns, that's way
further down than I go.

Script blocking will probably work most of the time, just as blocking certain
urls gets rid of most ads.

------
johnpowell
I actually wouldn't mind if someone made a application that would run on my
computer and mine for sites I choose 24/7\. Something easy like Minergate or
Nicehash but where you say mine for Metafilter, Reddit, and Ars.

I would totally do that since it is 26ºF right now and I am actually mining a
shitcoin to heat my apartment. But you would need to have a easy to set a
limit like 10% and back off (nice -19) so if I was doing heavy stuff it would
throttle.

edit :: and I know minergate steals hashes. But the software is really nice.

------
rumcajz
I recall we have once discussed this kind of payment for articles, but back-
of-the-envelope calculation showed it would take ~170 hrs to mine one cent.

~~~
cstoner
Is that really much worse than what advertisers are paying?

I'm only kind of kidding.

~~~
dawnerd
I mean, if they're making close to zero because of adblocker, its better than
nothing right?

------
pmontra
Does mining work also in reader mode? Probably not. There is also NoCoin.

Anyway, I rather lend them some CPU than get ads on my screen.

~~~
KozmoNau7
I would rather do neither.

My CPU, my bandwidth, I decide what runs.

If they want money, they can put up a paywall.

~~~
Kiro
> I decide what runs

Exactly. No-one is forcing you. You are confusing this with sites starting the
miner without consent.

~~~
KozmoNau7
When sites are specifically proxying their miners, to act as if they're
running in a first-party context, that is deceptive, and done specifically to
get around adblockers and mining blockers.

Make it 100% opt-in and tell people in no uncertain terms up front what
they're signing up for, then _maybe_.

~~~
iAMAGuest
> Make it 100% opt-in

It seems to be 100% opt-in in the terms of either you select ads or mining, I
am certain you probably mean you want to opt out of ads and mining.

~~~
KozmoNau7
That is not opt-in, that is a forced choice between two evils.

I do not wish to be forced into an opt-out situation. It is opt-in or nothing.

I will continue to block ads, miners and other malicious scripting. They can
offer whichever ad or miner they want, and I will simply refuse and block all
of them from appearing on my device in my browser to consume my battery power
and my bandwidth.

They are more than welcome to put up a paywall, either single payments or a
subscription service, and I will pay for their content if it is appealing to
me. They are also welcome to (attempt to) block me for using JS/ad blocking.
It will either be completely ineffectual and easily circumvented, or it will
make me go to other sites, that don't treat their customers as cash cows.

I have absolutely no obligation to unknowingly fund other people's internet
profiteering moonshots. If they want money, they can ask for it honestly and
directly. I support several content creators on Patreon, and I regularly
donate to various open source projects and the like.

I don't mind paying for stuff, but I _do_ mind when it doesn't happen openly
and transparently.

------
bencollier49
This again falls under the heading of "environmental disaster".

~~~
rspeer
It blows my mind that the first site to openly make their users participate in
this disaster is the supposedly "progressive" Salon.

Is it clear what they're trying to mine? They have these silly feel-good
examples like folding@home but it sounds more like they're going to be moving
drug money for anarcho-capitalists like everyone else in this space. Probably
Monero, right?

~~~
bencollier49
That one makes the most sense, given that it'll be CPU mining.

------
megadethz
CPU mines Monero not Bitcoin.

~~~
mrtksn
Why do I keep seeing this everywhere on the internet? There's no technical
reason not to mine bitcoin on CPU.

~~~
Viper007Bond
Because even when you're not paying for electricity, there's much more
profitable coins to mine.

~~~
mrtksn
That doesn't mean that CPU can't mine bitcoins.

~~~
saagarjha
Just because you _can_ doesn't mean you _should_. If you're not going to make
money mining Bitcoin, then why do it?

~~~
mrtksn
Are we mining Bitcoins here?

------
stevewillows
For me, this calls back to a need for micro-transactions much like Flattr, but
for all sites. Set your own category budget (e.g. $10/m for 'news'), and then
the extension keeps tabs on the sites you visit and the categories they fall
under. At the end of the month, the budget is divided up equally.

It doesn't sound like a lot, but even a dime or two per person adds up to more
than these companies are seeing from the adblockers.

~~~
imron
Check out the brave browser and its payment settings.

~~~
stevewillows
yes! that's along the lines I was thinking. On the surface its such a simple
idea, but it doesn't seem to be widespread. I also like that it takes into
account time spent on the site, but not as the sole metric.

In my view, this will be part of the future of a somewhat ad-free internet.

------
whywhywhywhy
Think it's interesting how angry website miners make people vs just a banner
ad also consuming your entire CPU.

Definitely feel it has an element of Bitcoin FOMO to it. The idea someone used
their CPU could get rich off it angers people more than just a badly coded ad
using the same amount of CPU.

(Not saying the anger isn't justified, purely an observation when really the
power wastage is the same)

------
Kiro
I don't understand the comments in this thread. You explicitly have to allow
Salon to use your CPU so how is NoCoin, NoScript and other blockers relevant
here at all?

The only real argument against this is the environmental one, and it's a big
one.

------
carlesfe
This may be the first step towards a new W3C standard: CPU-as-a-payment.

If browsers and sites could agree on a shared spec, it would provide great UX,
with fine grained permissions, promoting well behaving websites while rate
limiting others.

------
Traubenfuchs
I am not interested. I just installed the noCoin filter in uBlock. For all I
care your service either

1) provides free content

2) provides content that's so irreplaceable that I will pay for it

3) dies

------
kazinator
Soon, there will be CPU blockers to counter this; site sees you have an ad
blocker so it uses your CPU; browser's counter-measure notices CPU being used
for crypto-currency mining or whatever else, and throttles those threads down
to a trickle.

"We have noticed that processing in your browser is suspiciously slow; are you
using a CPU blocker? ..."

------
gesman
Would be interesting to pull their destination bitcoin address and see stats
of how many nano-bitcoins they've mined so far.

~~~
omgbananas
They're not mining Bitcoin, they're mining Monero, and a key property of
Monero that makes it a currency is that you can't tell how much someone has.

------
itronitron
Anyone know the cost of the mining rig in comparison to the cost of power for
running the mining rig? Seems like it would be easier for Salon to just buy
their own mining rig but if the energy demands are extreme I can see why they
would want to offload this to their readers. Seems convoluted but hey this is
the internet.

~~~
egypturnash
This is not a way for Salon to mine crypto. This is a way for Salon to get a
small amount of money from each of their readers, replacing the small amount
of money they used to be able to get by serving some ads along with their
articles.

The equivalent action is not “Salon buys their own mining rig”. The equivalent
action is “you and a bunch of other readers kick in a buck, and then Salon
buys a mining rig”.

------
TheAdamist
Salon needs to fix their malvertising redirect problem, seems more rampant
there than anywhere else.

------
kristianp
This is a cool twist on the hashcash idea, where Salon gets paid when you do a
proof-of-work.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash)

------
johmac00
Are they mining monero? Seems like it w/ CPU usage and apparently being
profitable

------
foadsf
maybe this is a good idea for open source projects. they can ask their users
to open a page and runs in the background with lower priority than users
tasks. when the computer is idle they can mine crypto.

------
ShirsenduK
I wrote about this model few days back. [https://medium.com/@troysk/saving-
journalism-with-cryptocurr...](https://medium.com/@troysk/saving-journalism-
with-cryptocurrencies-4db4bd15acc9)

~~~
zapt02
It's clear you've never worked at a newspaper. If one of the major
publications tried this sort of hijinx the other papers would latch on and
give them badwill to no end. This is not the way to "save journalism", and
it's a truly terrible idea that will kill whatever serious publication dares
try it. The CBS Showtime site you refer to as "HBO Showtime" in your article
was likely hacked, so doesn't back up your point at all.

------
Nursie
Great, more sites that will make my laptop sound like an aircraft taking off.

Just nope. If you want to block me from accessing your content with an
adblocker active, go for it. But you aren't using my machine like this.

Without explicit agreement I wonder if it's even legal.

~~~
dawnerd
I would love it if browsers detected spikes in cpu usage and ask if you want
to end the script, similar to when a page stops responding/locks up.

~~~
cimmanom
Firefox does do that.

~~~
Nursie
AFAICT firefox does that when it starts causing problems for the page, and
causing unresponsiveness, but not just for processor spikes.

------
romanovcode
uBlock Origin is blocking browser-miners as well tho.

------
hartator
> complex math problems that form the integrity of blockchains

There is no complex math problems being solved, it’s litteraly additions. I
gringe my teeth everytime I hear that.

------
SubiculumCode
It seems that a browser should be built that offers X mining power while
visiting site in exchange for no ads or trackers. Instead of malware, mining
could be a way to free the web of all its privacy ills.

~~~
KozmoNau7
Paying for website access by needlessly wasting CPU power.

Doesn't sound like a particularly good idea, especially for laptop users.

~~~
SubiculumCode
I understand this point. But on the other hand, it is not necessarily wasting
cpu power. It is converting CPU power to payment for content, as a type of
seamless micropayment, not requiring punching in credit card numbers, 3rd
parties, setting up accounts etc. Some browser-based standardization of a unit
of cycles per view might be established. I don't know, just exploring. The
current state of the internet kind of sucks in terms of privacy.

~~~
KozmoNau7
It's wasting CPU/GPU cycles and battery power, vastly more than would be used
for a simple micropayment with actual currency.

I refuse to participate in the degradation of my devices' performance as
"payment".

~~~
SubiculumCode
More than the current system of loading thousands of ad networks?

~~~
KozmoNau7
Same same.

I block ads with great prejudice and I'll block miners with equal prejudice.

Both are a waste of my bandwidth, my battery power and my attention.

------
Overtonwindow
Wow! Oddly I think this is totally acceptable but will eventually go way off
the rails with abuse and ruin everything.

------
jnordwick
I want my cut!

I've been pushing this idea for over a year now (as my HN and other social
media comment histories can attest), most recently:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16242816](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16242816)

I should have patented this when I first had it.

Waiting for streaming music and video to embed mining in their players...

Or websites pooling together to stabilizing income streams and provide bulk
access.

The idea to rent computer time to a publisher in exchange for content can be
taken further.

~~~
stevenh
Coinhive has been around for awhile.

~~~
bdcravens
Coinhive made it more viable, but this doable as early as 2011:

[https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=9042.0](https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=9042.0)

