
The best laptop ever made - hodgesmr
https://marco.org/2017/11/14/best-laptop-ever
======
sarreph
I knew what laptop Marco would be talking about before I clicked on the link.
Perhaps that says something about Marco, but I have the feeling it's almost
certainly about how widely-lauded the old rMBP was, and still clearly is.

Apple got so many things right with it, because all the design choices _made
sense_ , for exactly the reasons Marco gives.

The design choices being made at the top of Apple no longer make sense. Take
the touch-bar, for example; it was a passable idea, but flawed in execution
and production. If you want another example, how about DongleGate™? The most
recent USB-C trend was not handled the way Apple used to handle standards
progressions. Yes, they annoyed us in the past with too many FireWire ports,
and an overly-futureproofed candy drop iMac (USB)... But even then, those
choices made sense because the rest of the ecosystem was thought about. This
is clear when you compare it to today's offering, where you _cannot_ plug a
new iPhone into a new MacBook, out of the box! Incredible...

~~~
isoskeles
I thought "DongleGate" refers to that incident at PyCon in 2013 where someone
made a bad joke about "dongles" within earshot of a woman who became offended.
She took a photo of them, posted it on social media, and got them fired, and
then she got fired for getting them fired.

~~~
xauronx
My eye started twitching just thinking about that one.

------
petercooper
I feel like the odd one out. I buy a new MBP every 12-18 months (have owned
all Intel generations), use my MBP for hours every day, and think the latest
is by _far_ the best.

Being able to charge on _either side_ is a big deal for me as I move around a
lot, plus being able to use 30W USB-C power packs and third party chargers
(e.g. Anker) without fear of fire.. a massive boon for me, especially as my
phone and Nintendo Switch work on the same cables. USB-C cables fall out with
little tension so have had no pre-MagSafe style accidents so far.

The touchpad is better than my 2016, the touchbar is almost pointless to me
but no worse in operation, and it runs _way_ cooler and quieter - the past two
generations used to burn my legs and were noisy. The only downsides are
reduced battery life (not a big issue to me) and the keyboard. I _like_ the
reduced travel, but it can "clog".. if they fix that, I prefer its design
overall.

~~~
trb8
> I feel like the odd one out.

You're not. I have the late 2016 model. It replaced my ~2013-2014 model and I
consider it an improvement.

The Touch Bar / touch-id is a (mostly irrelevant) improvement over a row of
keys that I never used.

I think my computer would be worse if it dedicated space to a SD card slot
reader. I've never used it.

I wouldn't mind a USB-A port. But I have only wanted to plug something in
twice over the last year and the adapter was fine.

I really don't see why I want an HDMI port. I have never used it once over the
last decade I have owned Mac laptops.

I get that Marco wants this stuff. He runs some complicated portable podcast
setup that pretty much requires every port on the old laptop. But I can't
really tell the difference between him and the people that did not want Apple
to remove the ethernet port. Or the floppy drive. Or the VGA port. Or DVI. Or
the DVD-ROM drive.

The only port removal issue that I suspect hits a sizable number of users is
the iPhone cord still being USB-A.

~~~
dpkonofa
On the USB-A port thing, what reason does anyone have for plugging their phone
into their computer anymore, though? Everything about iOS and macOS now
supports wireless sync and file transfer. I can't think of a single thing that
I'd even need that for...

~~~
ytjohn
I'm a fairly happy MBP 2016 user. I would love to have a single USB-A port.
And that is because of the logitech unifying receiver[1], the Elecom wireless
trackball dongle[2], or the plantronics voyager uc adapter[3]. These are all
USB-A and fit almost flush with the laptop, unless you have to attach a usb-c
adapter, in which case you have to stick out 2" with a ridid adapter, or a 6"
flexible cable adapter.

Now you're probably thing "but what about bluetooth"? And I'd agree. In fact,
I have almost no need anymore for the unifying receiver. Except my elecom
trackball isn't bluetooth, and up until this year's Logitech MX Ergo,
bluetooth trackballs just were not an option. I still prefer the Elecom over
the MX Ergo.

And the plantronics headset? I've gone through so many bluetooth headsets, and
this is really the best one I've ever found that lets me switch between phone
and PC. However - computer bluetooth leaves something to be desired for VOIP
windows and mac). That's where their UC adapter comes in - it makes voice
conferences heavenly sounding.

Anyways, these are small nitpicks. When I'm at my desk, my laptop is docked
and the various accessories live in the dock. It's really only when I travel
or want to use that headset to take a zoom call on my computer from the couch
that I find myself missing it. I'd love to just leave that tiny dongle live in
the laptop all the time instead of retrieving it (plus usb-c to usb-a adapter)
as I'm setting up for the call.

[1]: [https://www.amazon.com/Unifying-receiver-keyboard-
Logitech-c...](https://www.amazon.com/Unifying-receiver-keyboard-Logitech-
connects/dp/B0058OU8VY) [2]: [https://www.amazon.com/ELECOM-M-XT3DRBK-
Wireless-Trackball-f...](https://www.amazon.com/ELECOM-M-XT3DRBK-Wireless-
Trackball-function/dp/B016QCPNUW) [3]: [http://www.qtooth.com/plantronics-
voyager-legend-uc-bluetoot...](http://www.qtooth.com/plantronics-voyager-
legend-uc-bluetooth-headset-in-depth-review/)

~~~
drcharris
I use these [https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-
alias%3...](https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-
alias%3Daps&field-keywords=usb-c+right+angle) to alleviate the 'sticking out'
problem.

------
blhack
This makes me so sad. My laptop is a tool that I use for close to 12 (maybe
even more!) hours per day. Every single day. It is the tool I use more than
_any other tool_. It is _such_ an important part of my life. It's _so_
important that it work well.

I remember when I got my first MBP (it was a 2010 model). I had long been a
linux user, and getting the mac was something I had done begrudgingly. I
remember how the little LED on the front would fade (not blink!) on and off. I
thought it was really cool. I heard a story (maybe from here, actually?) that
the apple engineers studied the way that humans breathe when they're sleeping,
and modeled the fade after that.

When I told this story to one of my friends (a long time mac user) she just
laughed and said "Welcome to mac, Ryan.".

I can't imagine a "welcome to mac" story like that one anymore. The only
version of "welcome to mac" I can think of is Apple seemingly crippling their
own hardware. Can't use your headphones on their $1000 (!) phone? Welcome to
mac! Can't plug anything USB into your laptop without an adapter? Welcome to
mac! Can't even plug your $1000 phone into your $1500 laptop made by the same
company without an adapter? Welcome to mac!

The new MBPs are just such a downgrade. I totally get why they dropped the
optical drive when they did. Online/flash storage was getting cheap enough and
ubiquitous enough that it was a real replacement for CDs.

This is _not_ the case with USB-C, evidenced by the fact that apple doesn't
even use it on their own consumer electronics yet (!!!).

The new macs are really pretty. I do not understand and probably will never
understand their hardware design decisions.

~~~
gutnor
> This is not the case with USB-C, evidenced by the fact that apple doesn't
> even use it on their own consumer electronics yet (!!!).

The biggest problem IMO is that Apple decided to outsource the whole
connectivity problem to third party. Apple provides no [1] cable, no monitor,
no external anything that uses the ports. At the very least Apple could have
done some sort of certification program so that their user are not left with
an infinite combination of unmarked cables of varying capability, or something
to show commitment and strategy.

That's like removing the headphone jack and failing to provide their Airpods
for months. But at least they announced the Airpods ...

2015 was a terrible year for Apple, the year they did nothing right - not
because their product were bad just meh, but their delivery, the PR was
terrible. 2016 is ok so far, but following 2015 it does not feel like enough.

[1] OK they provide cable and dongle, the point is that there is no USB-C
product line or anything special around them, nothing that really help or make
USB-C cool, just Apple-basic package as exiting as the ashtray option in a
Tesla.

~~~
kn0where
> 2016 is ok so far,

I think you have your years off.

------
yoodenvranx
For me it's the Lenovo T61 with a 14.4" 4:3 display (or any of the older 4:3
IBMs).

Yes, compared to modern laptops it is heavy, slow, bulky and has a shitty
display but: i) I can replace every single piece of it with a simple
screwdriver and ii) 4:3 is still the best aspect ratio for reading and
developing. If I am doing the latter I prefer a screen with a lot of height. A
4:3 aspect ratio gives me a tall screen while keeping the overall size of the
laptop down.

When DVDs became popular there was suddenly the idea that a laptop _had_ to
have a 16:9 aspect ratio (e.g. "HD") and unfortunately this killed the whole
idea of a laptop with a tall but narrow screen. Microsoft seems to go back to
an older style with their 3:2 but I'd still love to see a modern T61 with a
true 4:3 screen.

~~~
platinumrad
Seconding 4:3 being the absolutely best aspect ratio for working with text. My
X220 is amazing in a lot of ways but 16:9 is borderline unusable on any
display under ~17 inches in my experience. Even 16:10 feels so much better.

You may be interested in making a "T70", which is a 15.4" T61 shell with a
contemporary motherboard made by a group of Chinese ThinkPad enthusiasts. I've
been considering an "X62" (same concept applied to the X61) but haven't pulled
the trigger yet due to concerns about reliability and maintenance.

~~~
camgunz
Hey! I just got a couple X62s last weekend.

Quality control is an issue, but only kind of. There's a warranty and the 51nb
people are super cool and helpful. Some people go all out with the backlight
mod etc, but the only reason I'd do that is improved battery life; the regular
backlight suits me fine.

Other than that, it's an amazing machine. I used an X60 for years and it's
just like that, but better in basically every way. And relative to other
comparable machines they're pretty cheap too.

~~~
platinumrad
If you don't mind answering how was your experience with the ordering process?
Did you get them via LCDfans or did you use a proxy in China? Did you order
them assembled or did you put the motherboards in X61s that you acquired
separately? Thanks!

~~~
camgunz
Of course!

I tried a few different ways; ordering was kind of difficult. I tried a couple
PMs on Reddit which got lost, I tried the order form a couple times from
facebook.com/lcdfans but that didn't work out either. Then I sent a Facebook
message, Jacky responded and we started emailing. That worked. I think their
email addresses are listed on the FB page. Basically the strategy is to be
relentless haha.

Ordering itself took more than a month; I think I wired money 10/5 and finally
got them 11/10.

I did order them assembled and they were perfectly new, no blemishes,
scratches or anything. They're so new it's eerie (because all the parts are
new old stock), except it's such a beautiful experience you don't care. I
_think_ the shell I got was an X61s; I still have that X60 and there are some
small differences (no infrared, for example), but they mod them - ex: for the
video outputs - so it's possible they do other tiny mods also.

I ordered 2; one was completely fine, the 2nd freezes with 2 DIMMs installed
(works fine w/ 1) and I haven't decided whether or not to warranty it.

All of which is to say that you're right, it's significantly more effort than
just loading up Amazon and clicking a few times, but I love ThinkPads so it
was completely worth it to me. Even with 1 DIMM I'm super satisfied - so I
guess either I'm completely in the tank or they're really great haha.

LMK if you have any more questions :)

~~~
platinumrad
Awesome, thanks a lot!

------
random3
This is the most elegant critique to the current line of Macs I've read so
far. I hope it reaches the right eyes and ears.

While Steve Jobs was unique, I believe Apple has the right people to continue
delivering the same great products. They just need to let them do their jobs.

This said, I'm looking forward to test a Pixel 2 Chromebook.

~~~
jseliger
_This is the most elegant critique to the current line of Macs I 've read so
far. I hope it reaches the right eyes and ears._

I tried a 12" MacBook. It was a gorgeous machine and wildly fast given its
size.

But its trackpad is a grotesque monstrosity, and while I writing I too often
activated it by accident, flinging the cursor to some distant spot by
accident. Then I'd have to stop, recover, and reset.

I can't figure out what usability case would mandate a trackpad that large.

I returned the computer and suspect that the last generation of 13" MBPs may
become "legendary," because they don't make the ginormous trackpad error.

~~~
mgkimsal
> I can't figure out what usability case would mandate a trackpad that large.

I couldn't figure it out either. Did they have a bunch of focus group feedback
saying "this trackpad is too damn small... moving my wrist 1/4" to touch the
trackpad from a resting spot is way too much work, I'd rather have my wrists
touching the trackpad"? That's the only feedback I can see them getting to
justify it. That or... it's a general trend towards the ios-ification of mac,
and pushing towards "touch interface" for everything (except, of course, on
the actual screen).

------
mrtksn
I don't know, I kind of think that the best ever is Macbook Air 2015.

I would also argue that Macbook Air was the first laptop ever since it was the
first truly portable - not just transportable personal computer ever. For the
first time a notebook was light, performant and run long enough on battery to
be actually usable out of your office or home.

Yep, the screen is not retina but it's also significantly lighter, thinner and
has longer battery life.

The design, so perfect that hasn't changed since 2010.

~~~
pan69
I agree. I have the 2012 model, bought new in 2013 for cheap. 8 gigs of ram
with an i7. I recently had the battery replaced. I has some blemishes on the
screen. Every ones in a while I'm looking at upgrading to a Mac Pro, but then
again, this little laptop is still going strong, so why should I?

~~~
Certhas
Exactly my experience, except I just spilled coffee on it and now the keyboard
needs replacing. That's expensive and a bit hard to justify on a 5 year old
machine, so I'm going to break out the screwdrivers soon and give it a go.

With every previous laptop I would have just taken it as a good moment to buy
a new device, but I honestly don't see the point right now.

------
hactually
I'm using the 2017/latest Macbook Pro for work and have the late 2015 at home
and I totally agree with this post.

The trackpad isn't improved, the touchbar is crappy and it runs for less time
and runs hotter.

If any HW startup wants to do a Macbook Pro 2015 redux (maybe using an ARM
core) i'd throw money at them.

~~~
pqh
Bonus if it's all hardware with good Linux drivers.

------
chakalakasp
As someone who just inherited one of these at work and who had never played
with a MacBook before, my first thought when seeing the headline was “If it’s
not a MacBook Pro 2015, I don’t know what it is”.

This thing is pure functional art. The first time my screen just magically
unlocked itself because I happened to be wearing a particular watch was the
moment nerd-like turned into nerd-love.

~~~
majewsky
The only thing I can think of regarding this story is how it's now an infosec
hazard for you to take off your watch while showering.

~~~
Jyaif
Removing the watch locks the watch, and makes it unable to unlock other
devices.

------
afinno
It's odd that this was posted as I was thinking along these lines the other
day.

I have a 2012 Retina 15". The first generation. I spec'd it out at the time
hoping for it to last me at least a few years.

From 2015 I've been eyeing off every new release of Macbook Pro thinking "yeah
this time I'll upgrade" but then I realise there is actually nothing wrong
with my current one. Like, nothing at all.

I realise the battery is going die eventually and software updates will no
longer be supported at some point, but for now it really is the best computer
I've ever owned.

Note: I've been on all sides of the fence (Amiga/win95->winVista/OSX) so I'm
not just a fanboi.

~~~
raincom
After 1000 cycles or after 4 years, just have the battery replaced by Apple
for $199 + taxes, then you will have a good macbook pro, as apple will replace
the keyboard and trackpad, along with the battery for $199.

~~~
ksec
>as apple will replace the keyboard and trackpad, along with the battery for
$199. Is this standard for all MacBook?

~~~
raincom
It is the standard for any laptop in which batteries are glued to the top
case.

[https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/retina-battery-
replacem...](https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/retina-battery-replacement-
new-top-case.1729478/)

------
thijsvandien
I got myself the 2012 model shortly after it was introduced. Despite the
obvious risk, I made an exception to the rule of never buying a 1st gen. It
was simply everything I (until then) didn't know I wanted. A machine truly
worthy of the Pro label, pushing the state of the art at a fair price. I was
happy to spend my money.

Meanwhile we lost both the quality and the fair price. It really makes me feel
sour, to the point that I just bought a new 2015 model only to have the
warranty that I'll have a proper MBP for three years to come. It was no more
than a contingency plan; a rational decision made out of a lack of options,
involving no enthusiasm at all. During that period I'll either have to find a
good alternative to switch away to, or – hopefully – Apple will introduce
something new that will make me want to be their customer again. Honestly, I
can't say I'm optimistic about either.

~~~
SkyMarshal
Not quite following you here, are you saying the 2015 variant is not as good
as its 2012 same-model predecessor? What's the difference?

~~~
thijsvandien
What I meant is that practically the only reason I upgraded* is that I don't
want to risk my old one breaking when no pre-2016 model is available new from
Apple anymore, which could be anytime soon. Now warranty assures me that for
at least three years I'll be able to keep using the 2015 model. I can't switch
to another platform all at once, or bet that my stuff won't stop working
before Apple get their act together again. That's why the lack of options.

*This new one isn't really worse, nor is it much better. The biggest improvement is the SSD. No more dGPU is a loss in terms of performance but a win for durability and battery life. The screen has this weird thing that something inside slides when you shake or turn it on the side ([https://youtu.be/HmL7KXCMfxU](https://youtu.be/HmL7KXCMfxU)). Don't bother having it replaced because all have it to some extent. I suppose it doesn't affect anything but my quality perception. Everything else feels pretty much the same.

------
holografix
I loved my MBPr when it came out, had it for years abd then decided to buy a
refreshed model basically for faster wifi and because I could.

Suddenly I learned that the SAME version of my mac but newer cost the same and
REMOVED the dGPU.

I was flabbergasted... why the HELL would I pay the same money to lose the
dGPU.

That day I had to abandon the mac and I got a Surface Book. The new line of
Macbooks with their poorer battery life, silly keyboards and overdosed
trackpads made me feel less like I was missing something.

First mac was the Macbook “white” one of the forst intel ones.

Magical is the only word I have. The breathing sleep led, the orange/green
charging indicator. The button on the underside which would light up a simple
gauge indicating battery level. The media remote control. The terminal with
Python and C installed out of the box.

I mean it was way way way beyond anything you could buy and although more
expensive it was worth every penny.

Just doesnt feel like that anymore.

The new macbooks just cost too much and the features dont feel like an
improvement.

~~~
mgkimsal
How are you liking the surface book? I was on the fence, and... to get the
model I'd want, it's still > $2k - not something I'm going to just randomly
grab to try out for a bit. But... the build quality seems very 2015 MBP, and
as the specs improve, I'm tempted. Perhaps that'll be a 2018 upgrade?

Any downsides you've hit in switching? I do a lot of work with
intellij/phpstorm, vagrant/vms - I'm assuming there wouldn't be any
substantive changes in those. Also, some of the WSL/ubuntu stuff in win10
looks promising too.

------
stillkicking
The current MacBook Pro should've been a separate product line, like the
MacBook Air was. Those who are happy with the sacrifices it makes could switch
over, but they wouldn't have to leave everyone else out in the cold.

~~~
blhack
Those should be the new "macbook"s. The pro line should carry pro features.

~~~
59nadir
Pro features like being incompatible with Apple's own products, having shorter
battery time, often running hotter than the previous iterations, not having
magsafe, etc..

Bringing a new meaning to "tortured artist", opening up for tortured software
devs to join in a more literal sense.

Why don't we look for other cool ways to make excuses for things getting worse
or being bad, like saying "It's a bad craftsman that blames his tools" and
other platitudes to excuse away technology that is legitimately worse than its
alternatives? It's so meaningful to everyone around us when we refuse to
engage in any kind of discussion about how good things are and why some things
could be considered worse than others.

------
bllguo
I use one at work and never thought much about it. But reading this I have to
agree. It simply works. I never had to think about my hardware because it
silently and adequately does its job. If I owned any other Apple devices, I
imagine the experience would be even better.

I have an expensive Windows laptop for personal use. The much more impressive
specs aside, the experience is admittedly inferior. Why is it taking so long
to build a similarly seamless laptop on Windows?

------
mmgutz
Sadly my 2013 MBP logic board died after some spilled beer. I purchased and
quickly returned a 2017 15" MBP. This is not the MBP which made me switch from
Windows.

Apple laptops are becoming too thin at the expense of features I care about:
larger battery, more diverse (HDMI and USB3) port, the mag safe connector and
a longer travel keyboard. I could care less about Apple having the thinnest
laptop. That's what the Air line was for.

------
herbst
A fixed but fast declining battery is what I mostly remember from the hardware
side, and how fucking hot it got under normal load. The dated gui and always
broking developer workflows from the software side.

It wasn't a bad Laptop but I would place pretty much any Thinkpad Tsomething
above it in usefullness every day.

Edit:// forgot the horribly glossy screen. I really like sun, not like hiding
from it to see my work.

------
graeme
I bought this in 2016 for an urgent project, just before the update. I had
planned to buy the new MBP when it came out, figuring it would result in the
same great form factor, but faster.

When the new Macbook pro came out, I just kept my old one. Apple lost a
guaranteed $4000 sale.

Why didn't I upgrade? I needed the ports for audio/video work, I didn't need
the touch bar. I needed an SD card and HDMI. I would have had to buy an awful
amount of dongles just to use the laptop.

I'm going to hang on the the 2015 version until it is obsolete, or until
something better comes out.

------
passivepinetree
Every year I ponder getting a new laptop to replace my mid-2012 MacBook Pro.

Every year I don't. Instead I wipe the hard drive, reinstall the OS, and I
have a brand new machine. Even the battery is still going strong 5.5 years
into ownership.

This article hit the nail on the head. The laptop fulfills every need I have
better than anything else I've tried.

~~~
wyclif
Curious why you wipe the hard drive instead of upgrading. Of course, I'm
fairly certain it's because you've tried that and had issues just like many
users do. I'm just wondering what they are and how people justify "wipe and
reinstall" (instead of updating the OS) whenever a new version of macOS is
released.

~~~
passivepinetree
That's absolutely why. Every time I try to just use the "Install macOS
$VERSION" app, my new installation seems slow and buggy, and I swear some of
my files disappear.

But if I backup everything and then wipe the drive, things work perfect. I
also get the additional benefit of only adding back the
programs/files/settings I actually use, so I use it as a "spring cleaning" to
clear out all the cruft that accumulates during the previous year.

~~~
wyclif
I get it, but how much work is it for you to add back apps and other software
and how do you manage that so it takes less time? Do you clone all your
settings and dotfiles in a repository?

~~~
passivepinetree
It's actually not that bad; I'd say maybe a couple of hours at most.

I actually enjoy the opportunity to slim down the apps/files/etc. that I need.
It's like a spring cleaning for my files.

My settings/dotfiles are something I've been backing up on my external
harddrive, but it would be a good project to put them into a repository
somewhere and make a setup script to get everything installed just how I like
it.

------
chrisparton1991
Reparability is the main downside to the retina MPBs for me. With my old MBP I
could swap out the battery in 30 seconds, and I could upgrade the RAM. Neither
of these are possible any more.

That said, I'm still using my 2012 retina MBP and it's going great. These
things are built to last!

~~~
bluedino
Upgrade-ability forced me to selle mine last year. I had on of the low-end
models with 8GB/256GB and needed more space and memory.

~~~
chrisparton1991
That's a bummer. It makes me sad that we have to stop using hardware that's
90% fit for purpose because we can't upgrade the 10% we need to.

------
etchalon
While I agree with Marco (and would add that generations Air was the best
consumer laptop every produced), I always feel like it's unfair to judge the
final iteration of one architecture with any other iteration of a new
architecture. A lot of things had to fall in place for the RMBP to be
"perfect", specifically the move away from optical, the prevalence of speed of
802.11ac, etc.

The Touch Bar Pro is an equally great model, when used in a similar "perfect"
world (USB-C peripherals, connected to an LG 5K). But it's a terrible model
"in the field", as very few things are ready for USB-C (including USB-C in
some respects).

------
ksec
We are two years in since the new MBP, and likely three years before we see a
new model. ( Might not be a new design )

Very rarely have we doubt and not see the gain from an Apple transition two
years in.

USB-C: I dont have problem with bringing in every connection to one standard
or Apple dont ship iPhone with USB-C yet. These are all timing problem that
will be solved one day. I have problem with USB-C itself. The quality,
standard, and execution of USB-C in the public market with lots of different
standard of cables that doesn't support PD or whatever feature. It is
basically shit. At the moment I just wish they make a new version called USB-D
and clean things up, for both the Transfer spec and the plug.

Keyboard: While most do like the bigger keys, it is still no where near as
good as the old MBP. And there is a 5% chances ( The amount of new MBP repair
due to Keyboard failure ) that the most important input devices on your
Notebook does not work. And the repair cost $799. The 2nd revision of the
Keyboard tries to solves the key travel problem by making a bigger noise,
trying to trick your brain that you have typed and "felt" it. Cant we just
have a extra 1mm thick MBP that has much better keyboard and cheaper to
repair, or even no need to repair?

TouchPad: As mentioned, no one has yet find a use case as to why we need such
a large touchpad on MBP 15. Apple manage to keep the keyboard same size in
both MBP, but not the touchpad. It frustrate you by various misfire from time
to time, which was NEVER an issue with previous MBP.

Touchbar: It is useless, and does not work 100% of the time. Which align with
Apple's new Keyboard design very well. But it doesn't annoys me since I rarely
use it for anything other then those default keys. Trying to work with it for
2 years, it never clicked.

But I dont think any of these blog from Marco or rant in Reddit or HN matters.
Tim Cook is much more of an Data / Number person. And the recent quarter shows
there are more people buying the Mac then ever.

I miss Steve, i think he better then anyone else understand what the users
need, and when to make the call or jump. The Apple now is trying to continue
that way, but it is different. And it will never be the same.

------
sideproject
Using it right now - it's... so reliable. Had zero problems. Love these zero-
problem products in life (and they are not that easy to find to be honest)

~~~
eropple
I've had problems with my 2014, but at the same time it's _repairable_. The
screen went a bit screwy, so I opened it and replaced the LVDS cable. Right
back to ticking along.

Typing this on a 2012 rMBP that's _still_ a champ.

------
vermaden
Nope.

The best laptop is the one with 7 row keyboard, like ThinkPad T420.

While Macbooks have nice aluminium body and are very light and thin they are
far from being 'the best'.

~~~
RachelF
and Thinkpads also didn't have a glossy, reflective screen.

~~~
mbakke
I'm typing this from a ThinkPad T420, but was expecting the x200 or (actually)
the Titanium Macbook Pro 12" ("TiBook").

Give me a modern-day laptop with 4:3 aspect ratio or even 1:1 and a matte
screen and I'll be yours for life. I probably should have gone for the
Chromebook Pixel while it was available.

------
ian0
My first retina worked worked well for a few months. Until the screen started
looking like it was being burnt by the keyboard (a now known factory defect _)

My second one, around a year later, had the same screen problem! Not only
that, it had a logic board failure that took me months to resolve and left it
practically unusable (random crashes etc). Three times to the mac store to
sort this one and a multi week wait at the end for a new logic board.

On both laptops: Wifi doesn't connect to half the hotspots I ask it to. Boot
times become long even with a bare minimum installed after a few months of
use. Charging cables have a lifespan of less than a year and cost a fortune to
replace.

Im a heavy user and admittedly I don't take care of my stuff as much as I
could. But Id always bought macs because they were reliable and durable (My
ancient powerbook is still in use) and not had any problems.

Indeed - after swearing off macbook pros I had the chance to try and later buy
a 2012 macbook air. Damn - it reminds me of macs of old. 5 years old and it
just.. works. I couldn't be happier and am seriously considering buying
another to do me when this dies.

Im not sure if the tide will come back in but I think the high water mark was
perhaps before the retina.

_[https://www.macrumors.com/2015/10/17/apple-mbp-ar-coating-
qu...](https://www.macrumors.com/2015/10/17/apple-mbp-ar-coating-quality-
program-staingate/)

------
HugThem
The glossy screen is a showstopper for me.

~~~
pizza234
There are companies that professionally laminate screens with a (removable)
matte screen protector.

Once you'll laminate a glossy screen, you'll never want to go back again.

I don't know in USA, but in Europe, a German company does it:
[http://www.tdcomponents.com/shop/displayschutz_laminierung.p...](http://www.tdcomponents.com/shop/displayschutz_laminierung.php)

~~~
thijsvandien
The foil seems to cost around 40 EUR. What would be the total price to have
them apply it for you?

~~~
pizza234
That includes application; you'll need to add the shipping costs to your
country.

Of course, you'll pay the shipment to the company.

------
revelation
The best laptop ever made came with not one, but two ports for an utterly
failed connector standard (Thunderbolt), long since ditched?

And those replaced the ubiquitous RJ45 Ethernet jack?

At least they had the good sense to include HDMI and not go _full TB_.

~~~
bhj
The connections are standard mini-DisplayPort, which is still very much a
thing. As is the Thunderbolt 1/2 protocol over those connections (in the audio
world, for example)

------
pascalxus
And best of all, it might even last a long time without breaking down. Since
it has an SSD, those can last 10 years+.

------
jonbeebe
I have a 2016 MBP with TouchBar and I'm mostly happy with it. I love the
quality of the screen, its the brightness, and the overall performance of the
computer, and I honestly prefer macOS over any other desktop operating system.

My main gripe is the keyboard. I know some don't prefer the feel, but I could
honestly get used to that (I mostly use an external mechanical keyboard at my
desk, but often have to use the laptop portably). However, the keys get sticky
_real_ easy and I hate having to constantly clean it/blow the keys out just so
it works like normal. I think that's ridiculous for such an expensive
computer.

I don't experience any _downsides_ to the TouchBar honestly (besides the
annoying non-tactile ESC key), but I don't use the TouchBar for anything more
than I used the function keys before (brightness, volume controls mainly) so
it's really not worth the extra $$$ that they added onto for this thing. In
hindsight, I probably should have went with the 2015 model.

With all that said, it's the _unreliability_ of the keyboard that bugs me the
most, because this laptop should _work_ PERFECTLY for this price (even if I
don't agree with some of the decisions that were made regarding the design).
If I didn't rely on macOS for work I probably would have got a Lenovo laptop
instead. That makes me sad, because my first Mac was the unibody WHITE model
and that was probably the best "new computer" experience I've ever had.

------
bahmboo
Only downsides: I have had 2 screens replaced due to delamination and this 3rd
one has developed a purple line down the middle. Also picking it up with one
hand on the corner can register a false touchpad click. Magsafe2 was a totally
unnecessary change. Bizarre really.

But all that aside it's a champ and the only reason I would replace is because
of the stuck purple line.

~~~
thijsvandien
Yes, the coating coming off was a pity. After having my screen replaced, I
thought I'd have one that didn't have the same production error anymore and
yet it came back. Found out too late about the extended warranty program to
have it replaced a second time. All I can hope for is that my new 2015 model
does have a screen that will last, but I can't find any confirmation anywhere
that the issue was ever resolved...

------
Mizza
I totally agree, but I'm not happy to see this post for the selfish reason
that I'm worried it will be harder to buy a refurbished one once the one I'm
currently using dies. With the exception of the non-ergonomic keyboard layout,
I could keep using this machine forever and be pretty happy.

------
stcredzero
I have a 2012 13" Macbook Pro at the office. It's still going strong, and I'm
still just a bit more productive on it than on my fancy schmancy Asus laptop
with a GTX 1070. Since I'm running Xubuntu in VirtualBox in seamless mode,
installing software for cloud/game server development is sometimes more
convenient on the Asus, but I still have to deal with running a VM. The
trackpad is better on the Macbook Pro. What's more, Windows 10 startup got
corrupted by an update last night, and I'm still dealing with that. I've had
to deal with the equivalent level of problem on the Macbook (SSD failure) but
the tools that come with MacOS make that at least 5X easier. (It has been a
real saga with the Windows 10 laptop, which I will leave out the details of.)

------
pier25
A year ago I needed to upgrade my MBP and went for the 2015 model without a
doubt.

I wrote about it here: [https://medium.com/@Pier/why-i-bought-a-2015-macbook-
pro-fad...](https://medium.com/@Pier/why-i-bought-a-2015-macbook-pro-
fadf27ab4b)

------
jwr
I'm staying with my 2014 MacBook Pro 15", trying to weather the storm. Perhaps
I'll be able to wait out the current "Jony Ive running rampant and unchecked"
period. Perhaps next year somebody at Apple will finally speak up and say
"no". Perhaps next year we will have a split between "Pro" laptops (with
useful ports, useful keyboards, keys on keyboards, and without trying to
achieve extreme thinness) and consumer laptops, which have an entirely
different set of compromises.

Today Apple is making all its products according to one specific set of
tradeoffs: external out-of-the-box form over function, thinness over
everything, usability comes last. This set of tradeoffs is fine for some
products, but not for every product.

------
mehrdada
I like the new design better and I won’t switch to the previous version. The
display alone is significantly superior.

While I like the previous design and think the 2015 model is pretty great, it
is important to chronicle the history as it actually occurred so let me paint
some light on some not so rosy features in 2012:

\- MacBook Pros in 2012 almost universally had an image burn in issue (on the
LG made displays) and it took Apple at least 6 month to reliably sort things
out.

\- MacBook Pro 2012 almost universally had a dGPU problem that made the
machine crash on dGPU (presumably because of solder issues).

Those issues were very serious. Apple eventually did sort them out and the
2015 model is great but it is worth remembering that things take time to
perfect. Issues will get fixed over time.

~~~
mgkimsal
They weren't design issues as much as manufacturing/parts issues, though.
There's nothing to 'fix' with a missing SD card port, or missing USB-A ports.
That doesn't mean they may never add them in a future release, but probably
won't, as it would admit being 'wrong' (and may be less needed in a few
years). I was honestly surprised at the USB-C-only approach (even though I
know it's Apple's "way" to just remove stuff altogether). Having a mix of
USB-A and USB-C would have made it a much more palatable transition - upgrade,
use your old devices as needed, get new ones and use the new USB-C over time.

~~~
mehrdada
The poor implementation of keyboard and TouchBar are not design issues either.
Add haptic feedback and TouchBar can get GREAT.

I do miss SD card a little bit, but it is no big deal, and I don't get all the
fuss with USB-A at all. If you have an Android, MacBook is really made for
you. If you have an iPhone you just got to grab a USB-C to Lightning cable
(not dongles) and get on with your file. At your desk you really need a
compatible monitor/dock anyway. So they are rather obvious choices medium to
long term and hardly a design flaw. You could argue about the smaller battery
and lower key pitches as a potential long term prioritization issue, but I
think they just get better implementations that alleviate concerns under the
current form-factor.

~~~
mgkimsal
> and I don't get all the fuss with USB-A at all.

I don't get why people don't understand what the fuss is about.

external drives, external mice, external keyboards and USB drives. All of
these are things that I or colleagues have/use on a regular basis. To spend
north of $3k on a "pro" computer, but still get nickel and dimed to be able to
use things that you could use 3 minutes before making 'the switch' is
annoying/insulting/stupid. I'll go so far as to say had they even included a
token C-A dongle in the box as a gesture... it would have been appreciated.

If only to do a backup/migration from an existing macbook, you very likely are
going to be backing up to a non-usb-c device, and will need a connector just
to do a migration.

------
GolDDranks
I just bought a lightly used 2012 model to use as my home laptop. I have been
using the 2016 model at work for a little over half a year now.

I prefer the older one. I might prefer a 2015 model even more, but the 2012 is
almost as good; close enough to perfect.

------
satyajeet23
I totally agree! Though I bought my 13" non-retina MacBook Pro (mid-2012) on
the day it was launched in 2012 (5 years ago!) and upgraded it with faster RAM
and replaced the 750 HDD with 500GB SSD, and this machine is a beast in
performance!

I have used and compared it to the other latest Macs, and though I can notice
the performance increase, I find it a little minimal compared to the 5-year
old machine I have! The Non-Macs are not even close, not even on the list, and
no, I am not saying this just because of the MacOS, I find the overall
experience to be shitty. I cannot imagine using HP/Dell laptops, with that OS!

------
cgore
That's what I'm using at work, and what I've got for my personal laptop too.
Are the new ones that much worse? They don't seem like there at all worse to
me, I've been thinking about getting one.

~~~
tolger
I think the lack of standard ports, mag-safe, hdmi and sd card slots are big
regressions in functionality.

Not to mention that the touchbar is not very useful, and as an emacs user, a
big pain to not have a physical <esc> key.

~~~
cgore
I live in Emacs too. I thought you could get one with real buttons? Did they
drop that?

~~~
rhinoceraptor
They make a 13" MBP without the touchbar. Except it's using the lower power 15
watt CPUs, the same category the Macbook Airs used to use. So it's basically a
Macbook Air with a retina screen and a hefty price hike.

------
puppetmaster30
I have one. Here is my next one:
[https://system76.com/cart/configure/lemu8](https://system76.com/cart/configure/lemu8)

~~~
maerF0x0
I wish they went better than 1080p screen. Everything else seems to be on
point, including price.

------
merb
the magesafe2 was bad ;( I've been trough ~5 adapters since I bought the late
2013" in early 2014

------
chis
It is interesting just how ahead of their time these laptops were. I wonder if
it's even possible to make such an innovative laptop in 2017; it seems like
all the easy wins have been claimed.

Also notable: they hold their value exceptionally well, even for an apple
product. The 2014 model price is actually trending upwards on eBay lately.[1]

[https://us.bidvoy.net/macbook_pro_2014_i5/111422](https://us.bidvoy.net/macbook_pro_2014_i5/111422)

------
synicalx
Do we maybe need some kind of Mac-Reformation? Maybe Johnny could print this
out and nail it to the front door of the new Apple HQ? (assuming it even has a
front door, of course)

~~~
simonmales
I mention to colleagues that I hope produce a MacBook Pro 'classic' line. I
totally agree with the author: it is a professional machine.

~~~
abledon
hopefully, a few people at APPLE read hacker news, and relay this information
to more and more people in the company.... hope they realize this in 2018.

\- macbookpro 13" 2011 user

------
rocky1138
It's pretty good, yeah. I really would have loved it if they simply doubled
the USB ports and re-included an Ethernet jack for the newest one instead of
doing what they did.

~~~
slantyyz
That almost sounds like a unibody Macbook Pro.

I'm probably in the minority here, but to me, the best laptop ever made was
the 15" unibody Macbook Pro, the predecessor to the Retina (so long as we
forget the gpu dumpster fire that was the early 2011 models).

It had plenty of ports and had the perfect balance of portability _and_
components that were easily upgraded by end users.

~~~
s73ver_
Except the new ones have USB-C, which can literally become any other port. Any
one of them can become the Ethernet jack. Any one of them can become the video
out. Any one of them can become the charging port.

------
sunpazed
I personally own the 2014 15" MBP — and would agree with the post.

My work–issued 2017 13" MBP requires 2x dongles to run a dual screen setup —
at a total cost of $240 — which is just ridiculous. And I _have_ to carry one
everywhere, just in-case I want to jack into HDMI (ie; visiting customer,
presenting research). HDMI will be the prevailing standard for some time, and
is ubiquitous.

------
blt
I have a 2013 high end model with Nvidia graphics. I love it. If all goes
well, I plan to use it at least through 2020.

------
apple4ever
Completely agree. I use a 2015 model for work, and its glorious. Another
engineer got a 2017 MBP, and its TERRIBLE.

------
on_and_off
Isn't it also the revision that removed the possibility to easily upgrade the
RAM & storage ?

Personally, this is when I started seeing the MBP derails from my needs.

Culminating (so far) with the touchbar. Even after a couple of month with it,
its disadvantages run deeper than its advantages.

------
sdfh238
I have two issues with the 2017 MacBook Pro work gave me, versus my 2015 at
home.

USB-C

Touchbar

Otherwise, I dig the keyboard and larger touchscreen, and the rest is the
same.

My guess is the Touchbar is a UX experiment

I'd prefer they just ditch the UI they're moving and enable keyboard shortcuts
to respond to notifactions

------
Rainymood
I have a mid-2014 model and I absolutely love it. However, weird spots have
been appearing on my screen now on the black edge and I'm kind of
nervous/scared. Anyone else with these spots?

~~~
dewey
Yep, that's the screen coating coming off. It's known as "Staingate":
[http://www.staingate.org/](http://www.staingate.org/)

I got mine replaced for free from Apple (they even upgraded me to the most
expensive model of the next generation as they didn't have my medium level one
any more)

~~~
bpicolo
Does it have to be under the first year or two for warranty for that? I
definitely have this, but I'm 2.5 years out at this point.

Edit: [https://9to5mac.com/2017/02/24/retina-macbook-display-
staing...](https://9to5mac.com/2017/02/24/retina-macbook-display-staingate/)
Oh my! I think I could go get a shiny fix/replacement. I am definitely going
to have to do that

Thanks for this post! hah

------
racl101
Agreed. I've not looked forward to new Macbooks since around that era.

The new ones are just horrible and more expensive. The touchbar does zero for
me. So much junk for higher price and little utility.

------
jordache
>Apple still sells this model, brand new..

How? Where?

I have the 2017 MBA 15" . Hate how the thing crashes all the time from using
USBC peripherals... arghh..

~~~
quwert95
Here you are, friend: [https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-
pro?product=MJLQ2...](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-
pro?product=MJLQ2LL/A&step=config#)

If that doesn't work, go to Mac > Macbook Pro > Buy > 15" > Scroll down to the
3rd option.

They come in and out of stock though.

~~~
jordache
OH! that one model at the very bottom of the 15" page!?

~~~
quwert95
Exactly. They sort of hide it.

I'm in IT and order these all the time for engineers and sales folks; it's
much preferred over the new models. ;)

------
Uhhrrr
Disagree; it doesn't have a pointing stick.

------
ashildr
I don’t see a donglegate - I’m carrying

\- current MacBook-Escape

\- 29W USB-C Power brick

\- USB-C Cable

\- USB-C to Lightning Cable (iPhones and iPad)

\- USB-C to HDMI/USB Adaptor I bought for EUR10

------
jason_slack
This is the MBP I am using! I love it. I tried a new model and returned it
after just 2 days.

------
amai
The downside: the cost for replacing a broken Retina display of the MacBook
Pro are obscene.

------
pjmorris
I've got one at the office, and love it. Anyone want to sell me their spare?

~~~
Skunkleton
Sure. I will sell you my spare if you are in the bay area.

~~~
pjmorris
Alas, I am not. Thanks for the offer.

------
temporallobe
I have a 2015 MBP I use for work. It is indeed everything that folks say it
is, except that I absolutely hate the magsafe. Any little provocation pops
that damn thing right out. I'm actually not a fan of the new MBP but thank God
they removed that nonsense.

------
bfrog
I love my X220. Still do!

------
chaoticmass
Keyboard layout makes it nigh unusable for my work, programming.

~~~
mcphage
That's a shame, since there are thousands of programmers who are using it for
their work right now.

~~~
recursive
Why would that make it a shame? There are a lot of people using tools of all
kinds that are insufficient for others.

~~~
mcphage
It’s a shame that they can’t use for their job something that many other
people enjoy using for that job.

------
megaman22
If I could get one of the late 2000s 17" MacBook Pros, but with updated
internals, that would definitely be my next laptop. I know several people that
bought them for college and are still chugging away with them a decade later.

~~~
lj3
They made them as recently as 2011. Unibody aluminum. Matte or glossy screen.
1920x1200. IPS. 2.5ghz quad core i7. Ram's a little slow at PC3-1333. Those
don't have replaceable batteries, but you can replace them yourself fairly
easily. You can pick them up for about $1k.

It's sobering, really. The only substantial improvement made to laptops in the
past 6 years is battery life.

~~~
ScottBurson
Yes, I'm still using my 2011 17-incher. Will be very sad when it dies.

------
bearbearbear
I've had a 15" Macbook Pro since late 2013.

It was perfect in every way.

It never crashed, it was never slow and it had GNU tools built right in, but
out of the way so I could enjoy the simple and practical UI.

Then one day my X key started missing a keystroke now and then.

Later it started missing strokes.

Then after a while it started to input 'x' when I wasn't pushing the key once
in a while.

Eventually the entire computer became unusable because as soon as it powered
on it would start to repeatedly ghost type the letter X, resulting in the OS
disabling the X key at boot.

So I took it to the Apple store.

"They'll just pop the key off and replace it, maybe clean out under it" I
thought. "Worse case scenario I'll have to pay $20 for a new keyboard."

Haha no.

Apple wanted $400 to fix the X key because they refused to simply fix one key.
And they refused to simply replace the keyboard. No, the only way they would
fix it would be to replace the entire lower deck and that would cost $400.

I had no choice. I needed my computer for business because all of my work
depended on it. So I gave the $400.

My computer came back and it worked great for a while, about 8 months.

Then one day the G key started to miss a keystroke once in a while.

I think you know where this is going.

I continued to use the computer until the G key completely failed and began to
ghost type G all the time.

This time I didn't have $400, so the broken key rendered my computer
completely useless because my disk unlock password had the letter G in it,
rendering the OS unbootable.

Even using an external keyboard didn't work because when the OS disabled the
letter G at boot it disabled it on both the internal and the external
keyboard.

So now I have a computer rendered useless by poverty.

If it was a Lenovo laptop, I would have called Lenovo and they would've
overnighted me a free replacement keyboard, which I would have replaced myself
in five minutes by removing a few screws, swapping it out and replacing the
screws (I've done it on several Lenovo laptops).

I have a perfectly usable Macbook Pro sitting there in the corner rendered
unuseable by a single broken key.

------
burntrelish1273
"Best?" really?

\- Glued in batteries

\- Difficult to repair, especially the poorly-manufactured logic board

\- No Kensington security slot

\- Soldered in RAM

This is why I still use an 13" A1278 non-Retina from 2012: 2x SSD's, 16 GiB of
RAM, SD slot and KS slot. It's a little thick but sturdy, not the fastest CPU
but it's solid.

The latest MBP's have unreliable logic boards and Apple's repair policies
result in massive charges for binning whole boards instead of repairing cheap
components. For such reasons, the "best" macOS laptop these days is arguably a
hackintosh Lenovo such as T440 or P50s.

\- Spill-resistant, awesome keyboard

\- Nearly unbreakable

\- Upgradable with commodity parts

\- Repairable

\- Crazy-long battery life

\- Necessary ports included

It doesn't make sense to go with over-priced, soldered-in components that lack
sufficient repairability.

~~~
grzm
> _" Best?" really?"_

> _" It doesn't make sense…"_

People are definitely entitled to their opinions, and any definition of "best"
is going to be based on what one's priorities are. It's clear your priorities
and Marco's aren't the same, which is fine. The incredulity you express here
is really unwarranted.

------
ringaroundthetx
that being said I could see myself upgrading in two years or so

