
New dual carbon battery charges 20x faster than lithium ion batteries - tudborg
http://powerjapanplus.com/about/news.html
======
nathanb
It seems like I see headlines every few months that a lab somewhere has
created a paper-thin battery made out of unicorn horn which charges
instantaneously when exposed to the sun and will run for a thousand years
without recharging, and then it turns out to only work at absolute zero or to
become unstable when three of them exist in the same area code or to emit
radiation that kills anything smaller than a muskrat on contact.

I'm glad we've got labs researching battery technology, since I think that's
one of the most important areas of research we can develop today. But forgive
me if I'm skeptical until I see something show up on the shelves.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
> It seems like I see headlines every few months that a lab somewhere has
> created

Mostly because it is very much needed for a whole lot of things from mobile
phones to cars to making solar energy work 24-7, so if someone gets there
first they will become immensely wealthy capitalising on a shift of our
civilisation.

But yeah, proof of concept is not path to market, press releases are not
profits and all that.

I am also sceptical of claims that a new battery is both safer and energy-
denser. These two things are not natural allies.

~~~
bryanlarsen
The press release says that it has an energy-density comparable to that of
lithium-ion batteries, which in PR speak means "a little bit less than the
worst lithium-ion batteries" which means "less energy-dense".

~~~
mark-r
Right. If it actually _were_ better than lithium ion, they wouldn't be shy
about saying so.

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ghshephard
This is one of those daytime fantasies we all have while daydreaming. Except,
even when I'm really fantasizing, I never actually dream of things as
ludicrous as this press release talks about.

What is it about battery technology that seems to attract the nutty companies?
You don't see claims like this about CPUs, Monitors, Network Cards, etc...
It's always batteries for some reason.

And one of Carbon, Graphene, or Buckyballs always makes an appearance as well
in these press releases. It would be nice to see a new material take the stage
as the "10x faster to recharge, recyclable, energy dense, environmentally
safe" battery technology that will solve all our problems.

~~~
alisnic
Imagine these batteries in Teslas, that will mean a full charge in about ~10
minutes, which could potentially make all gasoline cars lame.

~~~
Tuna-Fish
Except that you also have to _move_ the electricity into the car, which is
actually the limiting factor in Teslas today, not the batteries. So this
wouldn't really help at all.

~~~
lpmay
From Tesla's website it looks like they take ~1 Hr to charge (1C rate). That
would make me think they are limited by the maximum charge rate of the cells.

~~~
gkoz
That's with a 120 kW charger. Can they increase the power 6 times? 720 kW per
car?

~~~
mark-r
At some point the amount of copper needed to carry the current becomes heavier
than the batteries themselves. 120kW is already outlandishly strong, at 120V
it's 1000 amps!

~~~
toomuchtodo
Are Tesla Superchargers 3-phase 480V on the incoming side? It seems they would
need to be to support 120kW charging.

------
danmaz74
Bit better article: [http://phys.org/news/2014-05-power-japan-dual-carbon-
battery...](http://phys.org/news/2014-05-power-japan-dual-carbon-battery.html)

------
stcredzero
_world’s first and only organic carbon material_

Organic = made of carbon. At least it meant that originally. Now the
consumerized term meets "Carbon."

That said, I hope this works out. New battery tech rarely ever does, though.

~~~
jebus989
"Organic" as in organic chemistry is to do with compounds containing carbon.

"Organic" dictionary definition: "relating to or derived from living matter",
i.e. [0]

> They add that the carbon they use is new as well—it's an organic compound
> grown from cotton fibers

[0] [http://phys.org/news/2014-05-power-japan-dual-carbon-
battery...](http://phys.org/news/2014-05-power-japan-dual-carbon-battery.html)

~~~
JackFr
I assumed they meant the batteries were created without hormones, antibiotics
or GMO's.

------
twelvechairs
lithium batteries are also special because of their light weight. This says it
has an 'energy density' which is 'comparable' (density by mass or volume?).
Vague enough for me to infer it can't compete on weight.

~~~
jakozaur
Yeah the energy density is the most important factor. If it's not competitive
there will be some niche market for fast recharging, but lithium is good
enough in many use cases.

------
thescrewdriver
Over 3,000 charge/discharge cycles...

"Reliable – first ever high performance battery that meets consumer lifecycle
demand, rated for more than 3,000 charge/discharge cycles."

~~~
tinco
If you assume a normal cell phone user charges his phone at night, and it will
work the whole day, it means around 8 years of use.

If you calculate from lithium ion, based on my own experience with my phone
and my macbook, a lithium ion battery crosses over into the less acceptable
performance after 4-5 years.

If the degradation curves can be compared that would mean you could expect
12-15 years from these batteries. Pretty impressive!

------
ommunist
Looks like it is actually carbon-lithium. Kudoz to danmaz74. It does not stop
to fancy me - why do we all need this stuff? When Philips introduced thin Li-
ion batteries, moldable to any shape 10 years ago, it took about a year or two
for the industry to accept this innovation. Japanese inventors will probably
license production to a larger producer. But if organic cotton only has its
unique properties if grown on Okinawa, there will be no mass-production, I am
afraid.

------
IanDrake
Some of this inventor's existing patents:

[https://www.google.com/patents/US7052802?dq=ininventor:%22Ka...](https://www.google.com/patents/US7052802?dq=ininventor:%22Kaname+Takeya%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hZZ8U5f2M8WDqgbv9IKICg&ved=0CEUQ6AEwAg)

------
nextw33k
I'd love to see advancement in battery technology, I am surprised its never
the established manufactures coming up with such innovations.

However this is still vaporware:

"Power Japan Plus will begin benchmark production of 18650 Ryden cells later
this year at the company’s production facility in Okinawa, Japan"

Plenty of people have improved battery technologies, the issue has always been
scaling up the process in a cheap enough way. If these batteries cost too much
then its back to the drawing board.

------
SeanLuke
People have adequately discussed why charging time isn't a particularly
significant concern in batteries right now. My concern about these batteries
is different: so far as I can tell, they're up to ten times heavier than
lithium ion. That's a killer issue for cars. Literature in support of carbon
lead claims that this is offset but the cooling and electronics needed for
lithium, but I strongly doubt this.

~~~
lotsofmangos
These aren't carbon/lead. You are talking about a completely different battery
technology.

~~~
SeanLuke
aaaand I am an idiot. Saw a whole bunch of carbon anode lead stories yesterday
with similar claims.

~~~
lotsofmangos
Easy to do given the amount of battery stories at the moment, this one is
pretty intriguing though.

 _" A new company called Power Japan Plus (PJP), working with researchers from
Kyushu University, has developed a dual carbon battery (patent pending) that
may solve many of the problems associated with Li-ion batteries. PJP’s chief
technology officer is Dr. Kaname Takeya, who developed the batteries used in
the Toyota Prius and the Tesla, so he knows a thing or two about the
shortcomings of Li-ion technology."_

[http://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDesi...](http://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDesignArticles/ArticleID/7611/Dual-
Carbon-Batteries-Powerful-Safe-Reliable-and-Cheap.aspx)

------
andersthue
Only two press releases, made on the same day.

~~~
throwwit
Better article with a youtube vid...
[http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/182500-dual-carbon-
batter...](http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/182500-dual-carbon-batteries-is-
this-finally-the-breakthrough-weve-been-promised-for-so-long) . I'm
particularly happy if this leads to less mining of Lithium.

~~~
danmaz74
From the picture [1] it looks like they still use Lithium inside the battery
(Li+)

1\. [http://phys.org/news/2014-05-power-japan-dual-carbon-
battery...](http://phys.org/news/2014-05-power-japan-dual-carbon-battery.html)

~~~
chli
What about the 'A-' ? I think they invented some new element ! ;)

~~~
tim333
Apparently A- means anion and is a generic term for assorted anions. Shame
it's not a new element. That would be cool.

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savrajsingh
Note that the battery still contains Lithium.

