

Militarized police overreach — a second excerpt from Radley Balko's book - codyb
http://www.salon.com/2013/07/10/militarized_police_overreach_oh_god_i_thought_they_were_going_to_shoot_me_next”/

======
blhack
This is a controversial position, and I recognize that it isn't perfect.

I don't think that regular cops should have weapons. They should be primarily
involved in conflict resolution only. If somebody wants to overpower a cop
because they own a gun and the cop doesn't, then that person should be charged
with a crime, but the cop should ALWAYS be the weaker party.

And I mean _no_ weapons. No pepper spray, no tasers. Nothing. Police
departments should also take an active role in making sure that their
uniforms, as well as their vehicles, are as non-aggressive looking as
possible. Cops should be the people that stop to help you change a tire when
you have a flat, help you get home if you're drunk, or mediate between you and
the scary homeless dude that won't get off your porch.

Police work _should_ be a dangerous job, and the only people who should even
be capable of doing it are people who are experts at conflict resolution, not
escalation.

I recognize that weapons are sometimes necessary, but I think that a cop
showing up with a gun should be an _extremely_ rare thing to see.

I know there is the argument that cops are there to protect us...but from who?
Unless it is a hostage scenario, when is a time that a cop is going to
directly intervene in a bad guy doing something bad to me, and a is going to
need their gun to do so?

\--

Police are protected by something called "qualified immunity", which is to say
that, while in the pursuit of their job as a police officer, are not subject
to the same laws with regards to assault as most civilians.

I think that this should go away. If a cop assaults somebody, it should go to
court, and the cop should have to prove that it was self defense. If they
shoot somebody, they better be able to prove that they had a direct threat to
their own life.

Cops should be burdened with additional _responsibilities_ but offered no
additional rights.

~~~
lkrubner
We should all remember that regular police in Britain don't carry guns. The
guns are carried by special units that get called in when a suspect is thought
to have a weapon.

I was in London in May when 2 men attacked a British solider and beheaded him
on a public street, on the south side of London. One of the men was seen to
have a gun, so the regular police called for the armed police. The armed
police showed up 15 minutes later.

What was amazing to me (I'm a USA citizen) given the brutality of the attack,
was the absolute calm with which everyone dealt with it. The public, the
commentators in the media, the police, they all talked about the incident in a
reasonable way, noting that tragedy can not be banned from human life. There
were no calls for suspending civil liberties so as to keep the public safe. It
was one of those moments when I realized how far my own country had wandered
from its supposed commitment to freedom.

Also worth noting, the 2 attackers spoke to various bystanders, before the
police arrived. Several bystanders captured the scene on their cell phone
videos. The attackers repeated rhetoric that was Islamist in nature, and they
used rhetorical flourishes that, I later read, had similarities to some Al
Qaeda propaganda. Despite that, the media was restrained in its treatment of
the religious/terrorist angle.

There may, at some point in the future, be a similar attack in the USA, where
some men espousing a radical Islamist view kill an American soldier. I doubt
the political reaction will be as calm in the USA as it was in Britain.

~~~
swombat
_There were no calls for suspending civil liberties so as to keep the public
safe._

Actually, the incident gave rise to a lot of noise from some politicians about
how they needed to introduce the "Snooper's charter" which was previously
rejected, so that they could stop these kinds of crimes before they happened,
etc.

This only got drowned out when Snowden started releasing the stuff that shows
that they didn't wait for any Snooper's charter anyway.

------
Simucal
Is it standard operating procedure for SWAT teams to always kill the dogs of
the homes they enter? It seems like every story I read about a police raid
usually ends with the household dogs getting killed. That is the most enraging
part of this story. My dog is like family to me and if someone killed him I
would be absolutely devastated.

~~~
LoganCale
Cops are cowards and are terrified of dogs, especially in high stress
environments. Sometimes they kill them just to remove the possibility of a
threat from them. As many people consider their pets part of their family
(myself included), I'm surprise there haven't been any revenge killings of the
cops involved yet. I suspect it's only a matter of time before they do it to
the wrong person.

Edit: Cops kill dogs so often there's a website that tracks (some) of the
stories. [http://dogmurders.wordpress.com/](http://dogmurders.wordpress.com/)

~~~
ekianjo
Wow, this site clearly shows they are not killing pitbulls or stuff like that.
Labradors. The nicest dogs ever. This is disgusting.

------
codyb
This is part two of Salon.com's excerpts from the book: "Rise of the Warrior
Cop: The militarization of America's Police Forces." To read the first ("Why
did you shoot me? I was reading a book."):
[http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/“why_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_...](http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/“why_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_reading_a_book_the_new_warrior_cop_is_out_of_control/)

and the corresponding hacker news discussion of the first:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6001843](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6001843)

------
mr_luc
Welp, I had to stop reading that halfway through ...

... but then I came back to the tab and finished it.

So, do we know _why_ SWAT teams are being used for regular police work like
serving warrants?

Is it basically because cops get to feel more like Batman when they wear
costumes?

~~~
pmorici
The old saying "when you've got a hammer everything looks like a nail" comes
to mind. If you have a full time SWAT team but only need them legitimately 6%
of the time what do you do with the rest of their time? In these cases it
looks like the Police department's solution is to just use them for
inappropriate stuff when there isn't anything better to do.

~~~
D9u
In my area we have SERT police who are also regular police officers who do
normal duty unless the SERT team is called up.

------
asr2bd
Since drug war/prison system/militarized police keeps popping up on HN, I'd
highly recommend anyone very interested in learning more about how this came
to be to watch the documentary "The House I Live In."

Trailer:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0atL1HSwi8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0atL1HSwi8)
Link to site:
[http://www.thehouseilivein.org/](http://www.thehouseilivein.org/)

It's an excellent explanation of how drug laws and being "tough" on crime have
led to skyrocketing incarceration rates, trigger happy cops, and broken
communities.

------
jbellis
Relevant, an interactive map of botched paramilitary police raids:
[http://www.cato.org/raidmap](http://www.cato.org/raidmap)

~~~
jkeel
Yippee! Only 3 in my town! (1 - Raid on an Innocent Suspect, 2 - Death of an
innocent) :-/

------
jwoah12
Having gone to University of Maryland, I have to say that I am not at all
surprised that this occurred in PG County. Every time I had to deal with
county police or government for any reason, it was a miserable experience that
showed severe incompetence, if not corruption. Also, they have a tank that
they deploy (along with SWAT officers with shields and tear gas/rubber
bullets) if students party in the streets after sporting events.

~~~
pmorici
My car was stolen from the DC metro and was recovered by the PG county police.
Trying to get my car back from them gave me the impression that the average PG
county police department employee is barely literate and totally incompetent.

~~~
jwoah12
Sounds about right. When my house in College Park was robbed, I never wound up
getting any insurance money for my stolen property because I just couldn't
string together enough competent employees to complete the process.

------
sailfast
This escalation seems to be due to a number of things: 1) A perceived rise in
the weapons capabilities of criminals and terrorists (See: LA Bank Robbery w/
automatics and vests) 2) A great deal of 9/11 DHS money going to local
enforcement grants to prevent terrorism and up capabilities (providing the
weapons and armor 3) A colossal lack of judgment and an incredibly improper
escalation of force employed in civilian targets.

It is incredibly maddening and frustrating, but at the same time I can
understand it from the Police perspective. Perhaps we can combat this with a
few policy and legal related things: 1) Legislation that provides a method to
sue the government for excessive force, damages, and property damage 2)
Require any urban assault teams to videotape raids and make that content
public to the courts to verify accounts 3) Reduce the amount of money that
goes to excessive gear, armor, and weapons and free up more money for training
on target judgment and force escalation.

Not a silver bullet, and it won't bring these dogs, or the man with the book
in the previous segment, but it could be a start.

~~~
johndevor
How about we just eliminate them altogether? There was a time when they didn't
exist and life was fine (or arguably better).

~~~
sailfast
While I agree a significant down-sizing of these tactical forces is required,
I think a good argument can be made for the capability of police and
government leaders to call a specially trained team within a certain timeframe
to combat escalated force.

If a couple of guys with easily available automatic weapons decide to stroll
through a shopping mall it's nice to have that option, but you don't need one
in every town, and every police officer doesn't need to be in full tactical
kit all the time.

I'm speaking out of turn but part of it is also cultural - if you're wearing a
vest and you've got the weapons and everything strapped to you looking
unsociable with your sunglasses and scowl you're a badass. I gather normal
blues don't get the same reaction within the community.

~~~
jlgreco
> _If a couple of guys with easily available automatic weapons decide to
> stroll through a shopping mall_

I think that these sorts of incidents, and similarly the Ned Kelly / North
Hollywood Shootout incidents, are rare enough that we really should not be
wasting resources planning for them. Have a few squad cars have guns locked
away in the boot, only to be removed with explicit approval (perhaps unlocked
remotely), and then proceed to not worry about something that will almost
certainly never happen to you.

These things _rarely_ happen despite the fact that the required equipment is
readily available. That's because there just are not that many people
interested in shooting up lots of people.

Particularly the Ned Kelly / North Hollywood situations... there is really no
good reason to attempt to arrest those people while the crime is in process.
Like how how high-speed chases should be handled, just fall back and arrest
them later. Don't confront those people on their terms, use time to your
advantage and arrest them later on _your_ terms. That's not the appropriate
attitude in every situation (for example, Columbine), but I think it is the
appropriate attitude in _nearly_ every situation.

------
twentyfourseven
Omnipresent surveillance, more prisons, secret courts and the militarization
of the police - Obama's presidency looks like a reign of terror.

~~~
LoganCale
These are local police departments, not under the control of the President or
the Department of Justice.

It's a far bigger problem than one person or one administration.

~~~
msandford
Sure but the executive branch is setting a horrible example by enforcing
federal laws against drugs in states where said drugs are legal.

If the administration and a local jurisdiction disagree on what's legal they
shouldn't use the citizenry as a proxy punching bag through which they release
their frustration.

------
yaddayadda
My blood is boiling!

~~~
Pwntastic
This makes me so incredibly angry, and I don't even know what we can do about
it at this point

~~~
Artistry121
Ask your local police department for information about their SWAT team. If its
not forthcoming or postive write your local officials.

~~~
slinkyavenger
Asking my local police department about anything like that is a good way to
get harassed and ticketed.

~~~
danielweber
You definitely don't want to ask them how you file a complaint against a cop.

[http://www.popehat.com/2012/02/28/remember-cops-are-your-
fri...](http://www.popehat.com/2012/02/28/remember-cops-are-your-friends/)

The video will make you mad. I'm saying that as an excuse not to watch it.

------
jacalata
So it sounds like a) there are more SWAT teams than incidents that need them,
so they're being sent to incidents that don't need them b) nobody who can do
anything about it gives a shit that these teams can't ratchet down to the new
incidents they are being given.

Proposed solution: every 2nd or 3rd SWAT deployment goes to the house of
someone in their chain of command, or a member of another team. The team
members never know if they are on a fake deployment or a real one. The chain
of command AND the team starts caring about how the team deals with little old
ladies and dogs because they might belong to someone important. And if someone
thinks that constantly being on incidents that don't require them to be on a
hair trigger and kill things is dulling their edge, maybe they'll stop
deploying them to incidents that don't require hair trigger killing.

------
antitrust
It sounds like the problem here is not militarization of police, but the
incompetence of these particular police and the huge amount of drug-related
activity going on. If people react to the end of drug prohibition the same way
they reacted to the end of alcohol prohibition, the whole country will be
strung out in weeks if we legalize the stuff. That's the only thing that keeps
me from jumping on the legalization bandwagon. I'd support the cops in the
Calvo case standing trial for total incompetence however.

~~~
D9u

        "...the whole country will be strung out in weeks if we legalize the stuff."
    

Some would point to the _thinning of the herd_ aspect of allowing those so
inclined to kill themselves with their drug(s) of choice...

Less losers = less problems.

~~~
antitrust
I am enjoying the subtlety of your Darwinian argument.

One friend of mine suggests that we need to make adult play centers that have
pitfalls, like dead drops, to keep people fit and alert. The kicker is that
they would be placed in such a way that it would be necessary to traverse them
to get to essentials like the DMV, liquor store, etc.

But I guess the big question is whether you think these people on drugs will
create a massive amount of collateral damage or not on their way to thin
themselves out? I imagine cars crashing through walls, people passing out with
their stoves on and burning down their apartments, strung-out people
electrocuting themselves, that kind of thing.

------
speeder
I would like to point, that several US SWAT teams are trained by a brazillian
company, that is world famous for training the best SWAT teams.

The thing is: that company is THAT famous, because it has literal urban
warfare veterans, here in Brazil our SWAT teams (with other names) are used to
fight heavily armed (ie: bazookas, grenade launchers, armour piercing auto-
cannons) drug lords.

Our teams here routinely kills lots of people, out of necessity, and they
consider their job war, also our most elite and violent teams, sent into the
worst places, are part of the military police (that here is a "normal" police
but is actually part of the army, they follow normal army rules and hierarchy,
and in case of foreign war, can be sent to the other country and keep their
current hierarchy level there).

Here in Brazil most of it is necessity, but it is not surprise that training
US SWAT here would result into something weird...

Here in Brazil SWAT need to use APCs (like this:
[http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cPqcotWunXw/UBRoaofiekI/AAAAAAAABK...](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cPqcotWunXw/UBRoaofiekI/AAAAAAAABKQ/DRxTM_cy2zI/s1600/caveiraobopepmerjln9.jpg))
to invade enemy territory, fight some seriously bloody fights with enemies
armed with military weapons (like this one that a cop is displaying after
capture in Rio de Janeiro:
[http://i1.r7.com/data/files/2C92/94A4/2C9A/D947/012C/A28F/03...](http://i1.r7.com/data/files/2C92/94A4/2C9A/D947/012C/A28F/0303/1A1A/Severino%20Silva%20-%20Bazuca%20-%20grande.jpg)
)

Sending people trained to face this, to do regulamentation checks, or raid a
party, or a amateur gambling ring, is beyond absurd and silly.

Oh, the website of the company that train some US SWAT teams:
[http://www.cati.com.br/site/pt/?target=curso_interno&cid=27](http://www.cati.com.br/site/pt/?target=curso_interno&cid=27)
the US version is broken for some weird reason, also yes, the site is very
cheesy... but I know it is true because a friend of mine that works for GOE
(Special Operations Group, of the São Paulo civil police) gave me the link and
explained some stuff (and back then, invited me to be a volunteer fake hostage
for their training)

~~~
gt565k
BOPE?
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batalh%C3%A3o_de_Opera%C3%A7%C3...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batalh%C3%A3o_de_Opera%C3%A7%C3%B5es_Policiais_Especiais)

Elite Squad and Elite Squad 2, the movies, do a good job of portraying what
speeder is talking about. The Brazilian favellas are run by drug lords. From
my understanding, there has been a big push by Brazil to eradicate these
criminals before the World Cup begins. It's quite interesting that BOPE is
training US SWAT teams.

Here's an interesting video of Brazil's Special Forces (BOPE)
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5Y5flAuEFQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5Y5flAuEFQ)

~~~
tripzilch
Wow that video is a sight to behold.. BTW anyone clicking it can safely skip
the 1st min which is intro.

------
amerika
As society becomes more chaotic, the cops are going to get more violent and
pro-active. Look at police in Brazil and other war zones. They have to be this
way, and they're not universally competent, so you get the dog-shooters and
zombies volunteering for these missions as well as the regular cops.

Maybe instead of blaming the tool -- the cops -- we should fix our fractured
and dysfunctional society.

