
India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives - Foe
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-48050020
======
gordaco
This is horrible, but it's clear to me that this is just more than "a software
error". Is being a student so hard in India that failing an exam causes people
to commit suicide? In that case the problem is way bigger than "a software
error".

Don't get me wrong, I understand that these deaths could have been prevented
if the software errors hadn't happened; but the serious problem that should be
addressed, in this case, is not the presence of these errors.

~~~
DarkCrusader2
> Is being a student so hard in India that failing an exam causes people to
> commit suicide?

The problem here is definitely bigger than a software error. For students from
small towns or poor family, education is their only shot at a better life for
them and their family. You grow up in an environment where failure is simply
not an option. I was once one of them. The cost of failing is incredibly high.
Kids at this age should not be under such pressure.

~~~
inapis
This. It is a massive cultural problem which the Indian society has
perpetuated over the past couple of decades. This competition was so intense
that kids scoring 94/95% were also not good enough. 98/100 or bust. Colleges
in this country had cut-off lists at 99% for the first 4-5 lists. A vast
majority of Indians who grew up and were schooled, till atleast as late as
early 2010s, have faced this. I've seen kids as early as 5 taking extra
classes after school to get ahead of others. I've heard of parents enquiring
about "what" to do for their kid who will write a competitive exam 20 years
later. Yes, they are panicking/preparing for something which is going to
happen 20 years later.

Fortunately, winds are changing directions. Young Indians have come around to
the prospect that engineering, medicine, law or civil services are not the
only career options. Success of companies like Flipkart, Paytm have played a
massive role in turning students towards entrepreneurship. People in major
cities are open to pursuing unconventional careers on Youtube, Instagram,
Blogs etc.

But there's still a massive way to go. I'd estimate it will take another
generation or two to bring about this cultural change that marks are not
everything.

If you need to grasp the intensity of the problem, be aware that multiple
prime ministers have made multiple remarks over the years, telling the kids
that the exams are not the end of their life[1]. Movies have been made to
emphasize that skills/passion is way more important and valuable[2]. To see
the after effects of such an education system, read The Made-In-India
Manager[3]. Some positive effects are that you get really ambitious and
competitive people out of such a system. On the negative side, you'd see that
many Indian workers do not really have a hobby or life beyond work.

[1] [https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/board-exam-is-
not-...](https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/board-exam-is-not-the-exam-
for-life-modi-tells-students/story-mey38ekYP46ou8mID71qrI.html)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Idiots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Idiots)

[3] [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42611062-the-made-in-
ind...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42611062-the-made-in-india-
manager)

~~~
jfk13
> People in major cities are open to pursuing unconventional careers on
> Youtube, Instagram, Blogs etc.

Given the inane (at best) nature of most of what appears on youtube,
instagram, blogs, etc., I'm not sure that's especially positive.

------
njsubedi
Even in Nepal, many students committed suicide every year when they failed the
SLC (School Leaving Certificate) exam. Since a few years ago the education
board changed the grading system from percentage based to grade based.
Previously the results would be published on a national daily, and only the
symbol number of students who passed the exam would appear. AKA public
humiliation of children of the age 14-17 mostly.

Now the system has changed; no student fails, they only obtain certain grade.
If (s)he would like to increase their grades in certain subject they can re-
appear the exam and increase their grades. This has been a successful change,
saving probably hundreds of innocent lives.

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sriku
The standard deviation combined with a large population means any automated
system targeting the populace is ethically bound to increase the number of
nines it must put in to ensure quality. This means having the necessary
checks, balances, redundancies. 23 out of 320000 is still too many.

Abstraction - in this case the govt wanting to offload the logistics of exams
- requires the govt to retain sufficient visibility and checks into the
process. I believe the education board isn't that naive to not do that.

The issue is that in India, graduation can mean the difference between poverty
and at least a modest livelihood. Sometime ago I read an article where the
journalist argued that that motivation for going to college in the US isn't
high 'cos you can have a middle class living without a degree. In India, and
perhaps in China too, that doesn't happen.

The eye to see potential in people and invest in them instead of using metrics
like exam marks would go a long way. As another poster noted, the new India
isn't that naive to think that marks are the end all, but for many it
continues to play a significant role in their aspirations. The more examples
of independence that get publicised, the more our young will be inspired.

Edit: fixed total number.

~~~
lotsofpulp
I would say the US is becoming more like India/China given what Americans are
willing to do to get into their choice schools and graduating even if it means
borrowing unreasonable amounts of money.

------
dexterdog
I don't know if I would say it caused them. There are many complex and massive
problems that are far more to blame for these suicides. This is like saying
WWI and II were caused by Gavrilo Princip.

~~~
jacquesm
It would be unfortunate if it turned out that we software people have a
responsibility towards those that are affected by our product. /s

Yes, there are many complex and massive problems, but whether or not they are
'far more to blame' is an open question, once you are operating in that
particular environment you decide to take on the responsibility that goes with
it. These structural problems also need taking care of _but until then the
people who write such software need to be more careful to limit the impact of
errors they make_.

Quote from TFA:

"At the heart of the controversy is a private software firm, Globarena
Technology, which in 2017 won the government contract to conduct the exam
across the state for more than 970,000 students. It is also responsible for
processing the final scores to announce results.

The state education board, which outsourced the job to Globarena, has said the
suicides were not "connected to mistakes due to technical and result
processing errors".

Globarena conceded there had been errors.

"We follow the process prescribed by the board. The incidents that have
happened are unfortunate. Initially there were technical errors. We have made
the corrections," VSN Raju, the company's CEO, told the BBC in April. "

Endquote.

In such circumstances it should be a requirement to get stuff like this right,
apparently peoples lives depend on it . This is as mission critical as it
gets. See also: software is eating the world. That comes with a
responsibility.

~~~
praptak
> These structural problems also need taking care of but until then the people
> who write such software need to be more careful to limit the impact of
> errors they make.

"People who write such software" are probably some developers who either
deliver before deadline or get fired. Who knows, maybe they are even the
future versions of the students - struggling to support their families.

I don't think it's realistic to expect they can shoulder the responsibility
for ethics in developing software. Something needs to exert pressure at
businesses not to deliver crappy software. Unions? The law? I don't know, but
not individual developers.

~~~
jacquesm
Their managers and everybody higher up are just as culpable if not more so.

------
jeroenhd
I find it hard to blame the software error for this. Of course it's tragic
that these kids killed themselves over a wrong result, but what about the kids
who do the same after actually failing their exams?

Blaming the software for the extreme pressure and stress feels like a cop-out
to me, especially after reading that (at least) this one student had the
option to redo the exams.

Software can have bugs, people can make mistakes, mistaken bad grades happen
regardless of whether software is involved or not. The real cause for the
deaths of these people is the pressure put on them/they put on themselves, and
the value people assign to these grades.

~~~
em-bee
the problem was not bad students failing, but good students getting a failing
grade in error.

the bad student knows what's coming and can emotionally prepare for failing
the exam. the good student can not do that if they get a result that wildly
differs from what they should have gotten. not in a system where they believe
they have no chance for appeal.

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anon1i4
I went through this Telangana's educational system mentioned in the article,
but before the "software upgrades", they used to whoop kids asses even in 11
and 12th grades, somehow I got through the system without much psychological
damage.

Apart from than test pressures, there is also tuition pressure, our family was
too poor to pay the fees on time, so they would ask whoever is not up-to-date
with fees to stand up in the middle of class and ask us when we will be
paying. Me and my other friends dealt with it by using humor to deal with
poorness.

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TazeTSchnitzel
People working on automation systems have a special responsibility, because
any small mistakes can be multiplied by the scale the system is used at.

Programming should have a code of ethics.

~~~
praptak
Without unions the management can pressure you into breaking the code of
ethics.

~~~
sokoloff
Enron had union workers. Volkswagen has union workers. Boeing has union
workers. I'm not sure that unionization is the silver bullet to ward off
unethical behavior.

------
abhinai
We need to build a world without exams. A world where curiosity is encouraged
and rewarded. A world where all school lessons start with a goal of building
something tangible and relevant at the end of it. Something a student can care
about and be proud of.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _We need to build a world without exams_

Tests are fine. If you can’t pass a written test, you’ll likely make a lousy
lawyer. But a written test would filter poorly for a world-class designer or
dancer or developer.

The solution isn’t in banning exams, but in ensuring they aren’t a single
point of failure for a student’s prospects. Beyond being humane, it also
improves the quality of the education system.

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formatkaka
In India, the identity of a student is defined by his grade. It's too bad
students score grades that are not sufficient to satisfy the ego of their
parents/relatives/society. It takes a lot of time for people to discover that
they are not limited by their grades. People who never discover that, define
their children using the same yardstick.

It's really sickening. I really wish the parents understand that the real
world is more about collaboration than competition.

Anyone interested in truly understanding what education is - please read this
book "totto-chan , the little girl at the window".

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sloka
India has an often criticized reservation system where 50-60% of seats in
colleges/universities are allotted to people from lower castes. This puts
enormous pressure on economically backward kids from upper castes who have to
score upwards of 98% to get admitted whereas a person from a lower caste can
get admitted by scoring just about 50%.

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radmuzom
The comments here would have been completely different had the software been
developed by the government.

~~~
formatkaka
The problem isn't remotely related to automation system.

