
Naming Names, Turks Turn Up Heat on Saudis in Consulate Case - jbegley
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/world/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-saudi-turkey.html
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psergeant
Feels like they may be taking a leaf out of the Russo-Skripal handbook here,
and making barely any effort to cover their tracks as a show of brazeness to
other potential defectors/dissidents. Guessing some fallen-from-favour minor
Saud is going to take the fall to keep things smooth between the two
countries.

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arkitaip
It was incredibly stupid of them to commit the murder at the embassy. It
totally removes plausible deniability and draws unnecessary attention to their
embassy. They knew his schedule and could have performed the assassination
shortly before or after the embassy visit and still be able to intimidate
their enemies.

Another thing Khashoggi's murder highlights: it's becoming increasingly
difficult for intelligence services to hide the identifies and activities of
their operatives. Competent researchers can much more easily map them out by
accessing social media, CCTV data, public government databases and the
occasional leak.

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lostlogin
There are obvious examples of this and you may be entirely correct, but does
this apply to countries that aren’t dictatorships or similar? Israel, China,
USA, Britain, France, Germany, Italy et al seem to be doing ok at keeping
their dirty work quiet, or am I just missing the news? It seems unlikely that
they all have clean hands.

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psergeant
I think killing a political dissident in another country that’s not actively
at war is considered a bit beyond the pale by most democracies, doubly so if
you’re putatively on good terms with them.

Mossad, alternatively:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahmoud_Al-...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahmoud_Al-
Mabhouh) — although the victim was far from either a dissident or turncoat.

~~~
lostlogin
Extraordinary renditions come to mind. While murder wasn’t the primary aim, it
happened. That involved numerous democracies.

~~~
psergeant
While I’m sure there are occasional counter examples, weren’t these largely
from either war zones or with the cooperation of the host country?

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lostlogin
Yes - I’m not sure if that makes it better or worse.

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steve19
> "Western intelligence agencies have generally regarded their Turkish
> counterparts as reliable on domestic matters."

I struggle to believe the author wrote this with a straight face. Are these
the same reliable intelligence services that just help purged half the Army
officer corps, Judiciary and Turkey's teachers because they are conspiring
with a religious leader in the USA? [0] I am quite sure they would point
fingers at whoever Erdogan wanted a finger pointed at.

I don't know the politics going on behind the scenes here, but I do not
believe anything either side are saying.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%93present_purges_in...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%93present_purges_in_Turkey#Police_and_judiciary)

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markoman
Keep in mind that the U.S. has communication intercepts [0] that show the
Saudis were discussing luring him from Virginia and that the Crown Prince
directly ordered it.

[0] [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-
security/crown...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-
security/crown-prince-sought-to-lure-khashoggi-back-to-saudi-arabia-and-
detain-him-us-intercepts-
show/2018/10/10/57bd7948-cc9a-11e8-920f-dd52e1ae4570_story.html)

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kchoudhu
It's been wild living in the Middle East and watching this turn into a first
rate shitstorm across the region, with the Saudis lining up allies to
farcically yell "Fake news!" in the face of the evidence being dribbled out by
the Turks.

I wish the USA could convincingly say something to the Saudis, but with our
recent surrender of the moral high ground (and indeed increasingly convincing
speculation that we armed the Saudis with intelligence that informed this
purge), that is probably not going to happen.

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lostlogin
Why would this would prompt the US to try and change things if events of 2001
didnt?

