
Ask HN: What Criteria Should a Young Hacker Apply to College Choice? - tokenadult
Every once in a while a long thread develops here on HN about how colleges choose applicants. To turn that around, how should an applicant who receives more than one offer of admission choose a college? Is list price the most important criterion? Or does prestige (however that is gauged) trump list price? If you were advising a high school student who is choosing colleges this year, what advice would you give about which college to choose?
======
rantfoil
It's not the populist thing to say, but I'll say it anyway.

The top colleges are a great place to be because of the friends you'll make
and the level of competition at those places. You can meet amazing people
anywhere, but generally speaking they are in higher concentration at more
competitive universities.

If you're going to be a hacker, go to a top CS school if you have the
opportunity. The competition will be more hardcore, the faculty will be great
(and will have written some of the textbooks!), you'll be heavily recruited by
top software companies, and maybe you'll meet your cofounders there. If it
costs a little more, then do it anyway -- does it matter if you're a good
hacker? Even at the top schools, if you had to pay for most of them with
loans, you'd be making more than enough to pay off the debt in short order
after graduation.

Debt IS bad though -- you want to avoid it if you can because it ties your
hands when it comes to starting a company right out of college. But then
again, working for a few years and earning a solid salary for a bit can be a
great thing too. Make your mistakes on other people's time. =) Worked for us.

~~~
endtime
I can second this. I go to one of the top CS schools in the country and people
here are, in general, very cool. I didn't have the same experience as an
undergrad, despite the fact that I still went to a pretty good school. If you
can get into MIT, Stanford, CMU, Berkeley etc, go for it.

------
stcredzero
Don't choose a college. Choosing a college means you are choosing a particular
brand of credentials.

<http://www.paulgraham.com/credentials.html>

Instead, the best thing to base your choice on is people. The next best thing
is environment. Are there particular professors who you look up to who would
want to mentor you? Is there a high potential for meeting the kind of people
who will inspire you? Do you have good evidence that being in that environment
will inculcate something valuable? (And starry-eyed reminisces of an alum are
not good evidence. Lots of things can happen at an institution in a decade or
so. Get _current_ information.)

(Another way to put it -- the reputation of a school is _marketing_. Doesn't
it seem wise to corroborate that with more direct measures of value?)

~~~
yummyfajitas
This is all good advice, but don't underestimate the value of credentials. I
agree that credentials are overvalued by society, but there isn't a lot that
tokenadult can do to change this or even avoid it.

~~~
tokenadult
_don't underestimate the value of credentials_

I'm agnostic on this issue, so I'll ask a follow-up question. What would be
the value of credentials (in the form of a college degree) for a young person
who desires to launch a start-up right after college?

~~~
aneesh
If you succeed, then probably not much. But don't assume success -- desires
can change. If you get frustrated with the startup and quit, then all of a
sudden you're just a person who hasn't gone to college.

Also, the types of places that give you strong credentials are also full of
smart people you might want to work with if you launch a startup.

~~~
stcredzero
Just having the degree period is much more significant than whether or not
it's a top-flight school. (We discount schools that are clearly a joke.)
Likewise, just being at a top-flight school is more significant than which
particular one it is.

Being at a place with smart professors doesn't benefit you much if you don't
like them or if none of them happen to like you. Being around smart fellow
students isn't so good if you don't get along with them.

Far better to find a dynamite mentoring relationship at a good school than to
just float through at the best school.

------
walterk
Here's a list, but don't take the order too seriously:

\- Courses: Do they have courses that you're interested in taking, and is the
department strong in those areas? What's the balance between theoretical and
more immediately practical classes, and which do you care more about?

\- Professors: How are the professors regarded as _instructors_ by their own
students? During undergrad, your professor's quality of instruction matters
more than their quality of research.

\- Rigor. Top colleges are pretty comparable, afaik.

\- Class size.

\- Affordability.

\- Quality of environment.

No one criteria ever really "trumps" other criteria. You have to determine
your personal weightings for each and decide which place offers the best
balance. Also, you may find that your priorities change once you've been at
college for a year or two, so unless you have a super good idea of what you
want to do, you might prefer well roundedness to strength in only a few key
areas.

~~~
bokonist
Funny, in my opinion, the first four things you mention do not matter at all.
Throughout my schooling, 98% of my learning came from books, self study, and
friends. If you can't learn from reading a book faster than you can learn from
a professor, you're probably in the wrong field. But if you are choosing a
college based on the professors, look for professors doing interesting work,
not necessarily good teachers. Basic instruction you can get from a book. But
if you can be near someone who's at the top of their field, you can learn
stuff that is not written down anywhere, and gain valuable contacts.

~~~
walterk
> Throughout my schooling, 98% of my learning came from books, self study, and
> friends.

This is probably reflective of your learning style more than anything else.
While I've certainly learned more from the books (there's only so much you can
cover in lecture and section), I've also benefited a great deal from
instructors who could convey their passion and communicate clearly, and I'd
wager this is true for more people than not.

> But if you are choosing a college based on the professors, look for
> professors doing interesting work, not necessarily good teachers. Basic
> instruction you can get from a book. But if you can be near someone who's at
> the top of their field, you can learn stuff that is not written down
> anywhere, and gain valuable contacts.

Only a few undergrads will actually generate a working relationship with a
professor who's at the top of their field, and this depends heavily on what
their priorities are. It's certainly not the default advice I would give to a
college applicant.

------
cmos
None of it really matters. Visit each college until it's just obvious. "I
could spend 4 years here and be happy" Stay overnight with a freshman. Get a
feel for how things are run. Talk to as many freshman and seniors as possible,
candidly, in private. Go to some sample classes.

Don't just take a tour or investigate it online. I chose my college because
the people going there were all pretty hard core geeks. And undergrads could
get paid to work for Masters and PHD students on their thesis. (I wanted hands
on experience) This, naturally, made having a killer social life a little more
challenging, unless your definition of a "killer social life" is playing net
trek at 3:00am on a friday night in your dorm's computer room.

~~~
tokenadult
_None of it really matters. Visit each college until it's just obvious._

My son forms some of his impressions of colleges from summer program
classmates older than he who have already gone off to college. His current
favorite college is the one where most of the summer classmates he likes best
have gone. I certainly agree that campus visits are a great idea, and some
colleges formalize those for admitted students. They can be expensive for
families (like mine) that live in the middle of the country if the colleges
being considered are mostly off on one coast or the other.

~~~
easp
On the one hand, I think too much emphasis is placed on going to the one best
college -- for most students, there is likely more than one good fit.

On the other hand, the cost of doing campus visits is going to be a tiny part
of the cost of their education, which is, itself, a foundation for their adult
life. I think the advice to tackle one coast at a time and make it a road trip
is a good one. A week spent doing that is probably at least as valuable as a
week spent in high school senior year.

When I was applying to transfer away from the state school I spent my freshman
year , was wait-listed by my first choice and we paid the deposit it my second
choice. I ended up being accepted by my first choice, but I wasn't going to
go, because, among other things, we'd already paid the deposit at the other
school. My father put it in perspective for me. The deposit was small change
compared to the total cost of my college education.

------
maximilian
I would say you should go to the hardest college you get in to (that you
generally like). The more smart people there, the better because the classes
will be more challenging and likely more stimulating. I went to a hard school,
and going from being the smartest to suddenly being average was a stimulating
transition. It makes you learn to work hard to get good grades, which are that
much more rewarding.

I would also say you should go to a bigger school. For technical fields, the
more students, the more choice you will have for courses. Diversity in a
technical field is a great thing because you get to see what you are really
passionate about. I ended up really loving applied math after going through an
engineering track.

~~~
tokenadult
_I would say you should go to the hardest college you get in to (that you
generally like). The more smart people there, the better because the classes
will be more challenging and likely more stimulating._

That's my general tendency in giving advice, but I've had people disagree with
based on the idea that being a big fish in a small pond can build a student's
self-confidence and win the student recommendations from professors and the
like. Does that make sense to you?

~~~
easp
If a student needs their self confidence built, then _maybe_ this makes sense.
Otherwise, though, the people who disagree with you are wrong, and probably
second rate in their own right (I'm only half joking).

For me, having great profs who were committed to teaching was really
important, but even more important that my classmates were smart and committed
to learning. Pretty much everything I learned, I learned by working and
talking through things with other students. The professors set the stage, and
helped us through the sticking points, but for most of my courses, the 3-4
hours a week I spent with a prof were generally met with an equal or greater
amount of time spent in academic interaction with classmates.

I know that there are some people who can't cope when they go from being
exceptional in high school, to be being average in a school filled with people
who were exceptional in high school. To the extent that this can be predicted
ahead of time, I think the right thing is not to steer them to a less rigorous
school, but rather to help prepare them to find motivations other than being
"the best," and, perhaps, to direct them to an institution that where the tone
is more collaborative than competitive.

------
alex_c
I think there are two main benefits that you get from a college education.

The first is your personal growth: what you learn from your courses, what you
learn about yourself, what you learn from your classmates. The personal
relationships you make with faculty and with other students that last past
your graduation. Like stdcredzero said, this is all about the people and the
environment.

The second benefit is the few seconds of recognition you get when a new
acquaintance or a potential employer finds out that you studied X at college
Y, and they think "ah yes, that's a good college" (or alternatively, "I've
never heard of it").

If you play your cards right, the first benefit should vastly trump the second
one. Unfortunately, the second benefit is much easier to quantify when you're
choosing colleges.

Ideally, I guess, you would get both, but that's not always possible.

Within reason, list price should be the least important criterion. At most, it
should be a tie breaker.

~~~
tokenadult
_The first is your personal growth: what you learn from your courses, what you
learn about yourself, what you learn from your classmates._

I imagine that some of that personal growth and learning from classmates can
come just from being farther away from rather than closer to home during
college studies. I commuted to the very nearby state university (but didn't
usually live at home) for my undergraduate degree. I thought I learned a lot
just from the surrounding environment when I lived overseas after I obtained
my arguably nonprestigious college degree.

------
numair
Since you're young, and you're already a hacker, you might want to look at
going to a place where there's an entirely different sort of student body.
This would help "balance" things out a bit for you, and would give you a more
interesting life. If you take the time to understand and collaborate with your
newfound peers, you will also end up with a bunch of great friends whose
perspectives are entirely different from your own; this is good for your brain
and will keep you from becoming one of those ignorant, boring people.

For example, arts school in another country would be interesting. Oh, and
believe it or not, the girls would find it kinda alluring that you're not like
the rest of the guys at their school. Probably has to do with our natural
desire for genetic diversity...

------
utnick
its probably really hard for any of us to give good advice because there are
so many personal factors and each of us has only attended one or maybe 2
colleges so we are all biased.

you should just make a list of pros/cons and trust your instincts

~~~
tokenadult
_you should just make a list of pros/cons and trust your instincts_

Agreed that ultimately the applicant has to decide, if he is in the position
of having more than one offer of admission. No applicant should feel bad about
disagreeing with someone else's sincere advice, including the sincere advice
of a parent. Nonetheless, sometimes an applicant knows himself better after
feeling his own reaction to someone else's advice.

I ask here because I was a language major as an undergraduate, and not
particularly entrepreneurial, and now I am a math coach and am getting into
college advising with my more sci-tech-interested clients, some of whom would
like to grow up and run for-profit businesses. Within my own family, I don't
have lore to pass on that is fitting for my oldest son (who will go through
the application process at the end of this calendar year), so I appreciate
hearing everyone's advice here.

------
jmtulloss
I went with the college that had the "best" program. I loved every minute of
it and got a ton out of it. The quality of the professors and students in a
top notch program is invaluable. They provide you with stimulating material
while you're in school and great connections when you're out.

People say that just doing something is more important than where you went to
college. That's true, but it's not a coincidence that a large number of
successful startups and engineers in general come from Stanford, MIT, and the
University of Illinois (and a few others, of course). The network can't be
emphasized enough.

------
lallysingh
One thing to look for is lots of other disciplines around, where you can
interact. I got some of my best experience programming while writing control
code for a bunch of mechanical engineers.

------
bokonist
1) Go to the best school where you can get a full ride. Convince your parents
to use the money they saved to fund your startup some day. It's a far better
use of money than college tuition.

2) Either major in a hard, useful, technical subject, like mechanical
engineering or computer science, or find a super easy major where attendance
in classes is mostly optional. If you do the second, you can work full time on
your startup during college, and get it to the point where you can live off of
it by the time you graduate.

~~~
tokenadult
* Convince your parents to use the money they saved to fund your startup some day.*

Would that advice generalize to a student whose parents are not providing any
funding for his education? (That's not my son's situation, but it's a
situation I've seen more than once, and one of my son's friends is in that
situation.)

~~~
bokonist
I suppose it depends why the parents are not funding his education. If the
parent cannot afford to pay for college, they probably cannot afford to help
fund a startup either, no?

Also, it's not startup funding is a better use money than college. A down
payment on mortgage, money for travel, or even just an outright grant of cash
is a better way of giving your kid a head start in life than sending them to
an expensive college.

From the student's prospective, paying as little tuition as possible is even
more important if you have to pay for college yourself. Entering life with
more than $20K of debt is a very bad idea.

~~~
easp
<i>Also, it's not startup funding is a better use money than college. A down
payment on mortgage, money for travel, or even just an outright grant of cash
is a better way of giving your kid a head start in life than sending them to
an expensive college.</i>

I strongly disagree. For kids who are self-motivated, but not motivated to go
to college, it could be better to give them money for mortgage, travel, etc.
For plenty of others, the cash will just postpone the inevitable need to get
their shit together and take responsibility for their life. It would be better
to send them out on their own and save the money until their is evidence
they'd make good use of it. For others, a little encouragement/push to go to
college might be just the right combination of structure and self-
responsibility that they need.

------
easp
For most private schools (and the more prestigious public schools), the only
people who pay list price are those most able to pay it. Working class and
even squarely middle-class kids will generally qualify for significant amounts
of need-based financial aid in the forms of grants. So, to the degree that
cost is a factor, you should be considering the tuition in conjunction with
the financial aid package offered.

I think neither cost (as long as the cost is affordable) nor prestige should
be the top criteria.

I think its more important to find a good match between the student and the
environment of the college. The most important aspects of the environment are
the professors, the other students and the available academic programs.

I'd discount big research universities, since the foremost criteria used by
the institution for evaluating undergrad instructors is 1) are they cheap (ie
grad students), 2) does their research attract prestige, funding, and cheap
labor (ie grad students). The foremost criteria used by undegrads in
evaluating their profs is "coolness" and the ease of getting a good grade.
Also, access by undergrads to profs is limited. They are usually teach in big
lecture environments, and their office hours are limited.

Focus more on institutions, like small liberal arts colleges, that place a
high value on undergrad instruction, while still expecting profs to maintain a
level of engagement in scholarship and research. The classroom environment is
usually more intimate and profs are more available outside of the classroom.

The students are important too. Every hour spent with a prof will also be
spent with other students. Better they contribute to the experience. Also, for
every hour spent in a classroom setting, there should be at least as many
spent studying and socializing with other students.

Even if you have your criteria firm in your mind, its hard to get enough
information to base an evaluation on, so it pays to look for points of
leverage among friends, family, family doctor, high school teachers, etc. None
of them are going to have good knowledge of more than one or two institutions,
but teachers will have a sense of the experiences of former students. Older
friends and relatives will know about their own institutions. Parents of
friends and relatives will know something about the experience of their own
children, and also of the children of their own friends and family. What's
most important though is that these people will have an inside perspective not
just the institutions, but on the prospective student. So, tell these people
what the student is looking for, ask them for suggestions based on what they
know, and then ask them why they made the suggestion they did and see if it
makes sense.

It's also worth paying close attention to the way the schools markets
themselves. If a college manages to communicate a strong and consistent
identity for itself in its marketing materials then i'd give that identity
some weight unless their is strong evidence to the contrary (particularly if
the same message is delivered once they've issued their acceptance). There are
some perverse incentives for small schools to misrepresent themselves, but
these mostly come into play before applications are received. Also I think
these perverse incentives are checked by the fact that they don't have a lot
of flexibility with respect to class size. Too many students and their quality
of teaching suffers. Too few and their finances suffer. In addition, if its a
bad match and the student drops out, it can damage their reputation, and hurt
some of the metrics on which they are judged when it comes time for re-
accreditation.

Take advantage of the net to get more of an inside view on schools too. We
used to have prospective students checking out our live journal group. I think
that's died off a bit, but there are still groups on facebook and whatnot, and
the school should be able to put you in touch with current students and recent
grads.

In the end though, its great to do a campus visit, particularly if you are
choosing among just a handful of schools. Arrange it with admissions. They may
get you a room for a night in a dorm, and they'll get you into classes, and
give you a campus tour. Outside the formal activities, take advantage of
unscheduled time to talk to other students.

Regarding the academic program, a lot of students end up graduating in
something they might not even have known about when they entered, and they may
end up making a living doing a job that didn't even exist when they graduated.
For these reasons, I think its important to get a good solid liberal
education, with exposure to a variety of subjects and viewpoints no matter
what major they choose, and a grounding in the humanities, so they have a
perspective on the forces that have shaped society in the past, and can apply
that perspective to understanding present day changes.

Last thing, I think the prospect of launching a startup after graduating was
raised in another thread. I generally encourage people to keep their options
open after graduation by not taking on too much debt. For a student who is
planning on a pursuit (like writing a book, or starting a company) where they
can expect little or no income for a long stretch after graduation, I think
the goal should be graduating with no debt at all. In those cases, cost could
become a more important factor; 10K in loans might not be decisive if one
expects to have some sort of paying job after graduation, but it could be the
difference between having grocery money, or going to bed hungry if you are
planning on scraping by while trying to get a startup off the ground.

------
ibgeek
I'm currently a junior in college. I decided on a good (but not great),
liberal arts school with about 1800 students over going to Univ of Florida,
where I was also accepted. Here's my analysis of that.

Advantages up to this point: * Flexibility -- There is a lot of flexibility in
my choices of courses and in life here in general. A lot of students here are
able to double-major, travel abroad, etc. because of that flexibility.

* Cost -- with financial aid, it's cost me a little bit more than a public univ but not by much. ($4k/year difference max)

* Personal attention -- I can show up at a prof's office and chat about anything. They know my name, my interests, and my abilities. This has helped with solving bureaucratic problems, enabled me to get great letters of recommendation, find professors to do research with, and helped me to gain access to various academic programs. If you're at a research school, most profs. don't care about you, the lowly undergrad, unless you can do something for them. And some of those prestigious schools have profs. like that.

* Size and Selectivity -- Eckerd is not the most selective school I could have gone too but I have found some peers (although not most) who can challenge me. The advantage of this is that you can quickly find the other cream of the crop and challenge each other, but at the same time, I have found it easy to gain access to research programs, awards, TA positions, etc. on campus because I could easily get myself noticed and show myself as the cream of the crop.

* Time -- My courses aren't always very challenging or time consuming so it's easy to take overload or to use my free time to do other things, particularly things related to research or future academic endeavors.

Disadvantages: * Challenge -- I feel like few of my courses have really
challenged me. But, I have friends who transferred here from schools like
Rochester Inst. Tech and Univ of Rochester who say that those schools don't
offer more of a challenge necessarily, either. However, they have also said
that maybe you have high quality peers there in your field, but they tend to
lack social skills. (This may change as I get farther into the courses for my
double-major in math.)

In my case, Eckerd offers a lot of advantages in terms of accolades, letters
of recommendations, good grades, etc. which will help me get into grad school
(which is my goal). But at the same time, it's been frustrating over the last
few years since I've rarely run into people who know more than I do or who
have are more skilled than I am.

(I should also mention that I have done research not only at Eckerd but at the
University of Connecticut for the last few years... I've tried to take
advantage of resources outside of Eckerd to supplement its small size.)

