
Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress - BinaryIdiot
http://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Suicide-of-an-Uber-engineer-widow-blames-job-11095807.php?t=7e40d1f554&cmpid=fb-premium&cmpid=twitter-premium
======
defined
This is not unique to Uber.

I have worked in toxic environments that depleted and debilitated me to the
point that, in two cases, I was psychologically completely incapable of even
thinking about finding work for three months after being laid off from one,
and quitting the other.

It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just
makes it far worse.

It simply takes being treated like a robotic code monkey who is expected to do
everything that is ordered, without question, and micromanaged to the point of
insanity, while people in management positions make decisions - and then
reverse them - that are so obviously wrong to any competent engineer that it
makes Dilbert's PHB look like Einstein in comparison. This is not much of an
exaggeration.

This is bad enough for any regular human to endure, but take a skilled
engineer who probably suffers from impostor syndrome and the upper end of the
Dunning-Kruger effect, and it is a recipe for a breakdown and, quite possibly,
suicide.

Those who would glibly criticize such people for not going and getting another
job, or just quitting, are out of touch with how badly one's confidence is
damaged by that point; it would not be unreasonable to compare the psychology
to that of abused spouses who don't leave their abusers.

Also, I could not leave one of the jobs without losing my work visa and being
deported (it was back in 2003 before visa portability). Maybe others are in
situations that make it harder than expected to move on.

My deepest empathy goes to this engineer, and to all others who suffer in this
way, and to their families. We need to pay far more attention to the
destruction that is done by quasi-sociopathic managers.

~~~
skrebbel
I keep reading stories like these on HN, yet I don't know a single person who
has experienced anything even remotely close to this.

I don't live in the Bay Area.

Are SV startups, in general, really this badly managed? If I add up all
anecdata from reading HN comments about toxic work environments, I get the
impression that 50% of the Valley is run like this. I have a hard time
comprehending how this can happen.

~~~
TheCondor
I'm not a psychologist but I have observed this kind of syndrome a couple
times and I think it's usually more like a performance anxiety. You take the
big fish out of the little pond and all the sudden he's a small fish in a big
pond and it's a culture shock.

The time lines, the compromises and the urgency are all different at a
startup. You are used to being the smartest guy in the room at a mid sized or
big place, you go to a small startup that got money because the founders are
exceptional and they've staffed up with some exceptional people and they are
all running like hell, you might look or feel kind of ordinary and that's a
tough pill to swallow. It's especially difficult if you've never felt it
before, all the sudden you're "failing" Combine that with a family that thinks
the world of you because "you're the best" and I expect it's worse. Or at
least that is how I've tried to understand it. There are clearly other issues
when it results in suicide though. Again, I'm no doctor, but I try to give
them an interview problem they can't solve, I think it's good if they say "I
don't know how" or "I can't do that yet"

Another symptom I've observed, when someone is in that space, they often try
to do more. Rather than botching one feature, maybe they'll rush and half-ass
three or four to try and "make up" for earlier shortcomings. That usually
creates a rift with the team that then starts to think less of them, the new
guy is a bull in a China shop.

As for management, they share some of it. Uber seems like a broken place in a
lot of ways. They should know it takes time to ramp up. Also success begets
success, I take things off a new employee's plate when this happens. Make it
small enough for them to create a little success and then build on it. In SV
there is a large talent pool and a belief that the "right person" is around
there somewhere so building long term success might not be as important to
some companies.

~~~
neilk
I know exactly what you're talking about. I've seen it and even been that guy.

We should be clear, though, that the "small fish in a big pond" scenario isn't
exactly what happened to Joseph Thomas. According to the article he had
already had a successful run at LinkedIn and had an offer on the table from
Apple.

Sometimes even brilliant people just aren't a match, no matter what. But a
mismatch is a mutual responsibility, and shouldn't be a brutalizing
experience. The fault there lies with Uber.

~~~
pm90
I'm no fan of Uber but I think this is putting too much blame on them. If you
see a toxic culture, leave. I know there are other factors, psychological
things that keep you from making rational decisions etc. But lets please be
clear: the world is actually a pretty brutal place for most of humanity. Most
humans are stuck in a poverty loop they can't ever hope to escape. And we have
a story of people who can't just say: "enough! I'm outta here?".

I'm certainly not putting the blame on Joseph, he seems to have suffered a lot
despite having objectively been a good engineer. But lets not forget that
we're all (mostly) at-will employees, there is nothing stopping us from
getting up and leaving just right now. Personal responsibility is really
important. Perhaps we should be teaching some of this stuff in high school? I
don't know what the solution is IMO.

I've personally been in toxic situations as well. As soon as I realized my
happiness delta was negative, I immediately started looking at other positions
and switched.

~~~
throwaway8800
> If you see a toxic culture, leave.

This is easier said than done when your own self-worth and ability to see your
own value is diminished due to stress, when you have a mortgage and financial
obligations and a family to take care of. Not many people are financially
independent enough to just quit a job the moment they feel it's become
"toxic".

~~~
pm90
> This is easier said than done when your own self-worth and ability to see
> your own value is diminished due to stress, when you have a mortgage and
> financial obligations and a family to take care of. Not many people are
> financially independent enough to just quit a job the moment they feel it's
> become "toxic".

Well, I never said it was easy.

To elaborate more, it is _incredibly_ important to have contingency plans in
place, to prevent exactly this sort of situation from happening. One of the
first things I did when I started working professionally was to have enough
liquidity to last at least a year, which I was able to do only after 3 years
of saving aggressively. Which really came in handy after I was laid off a job
and had to spend 3 months looking for another one.

I really don't understand how one can get married, have kids and _not_ have
such plans in place? IMO it seems kinda irresponsible, especially if one is
working in tech, where saving money is much easier than in other professions.

~~~
throwaway8800
I also have a years' worth of living expenses saved, and it also took me about
3 years to build. It has zero impact on my stress level at work. I don't think
I feel any more free to leave than if I only had a months worth saved. The
idea of leaving and potentially burning through most or all of that portion of
my family's savings while I look for another job is no more appealing or
satisfying than just staying in the stressful job.

Perhaps I'd feel differently if I had several more years saved or if I were
_more_ stressed at work. The thing about work stress that builds up is that
your mental health declines and you can begin to think very irrationally.
Paranoia and depression can set in. I've seen devastating examples of this
with people I know. I think it's important not to minimize it or brush it off
and to understand that what seems obvious to you or I may not be obvious at
all to someone who is feeling burnt out, desperate and depressed from their
work situation.

~~~
pm90
> The thing about work stress that builds up is that your mental health
> declines and you can begin to think very irrationally. Paranoia and
> depression can set in. I've seen devastating examples of this with people I
> know. I think it's important not to minimize it or brush it off and to
> understand that what seems obvious to you or I may not be obvious at all to
> someone who is feeling burnt out, desperate and depressed from their work
> situation.

I'm most certainly not "brushing it off" or "minimizing it". I'm advocating
for proactive measures to avoid reaching a such a mental state that can drive
a person to consider suicide as a reasonable option. In your case, it seems
like the measure I suggested (having monetary guarantee for at least a year)
is not sufficient, so I would advise you to look for other measures, which you
can likely take now when things are good.

~~~
throwaway8800
I didn't mean to suggest that you specifically were brushing anything off; it
was more of a general statement. Sorry about that.

What are other contingency plans that can be put in place?

------
jjjensen90
This was so difficult for me to read.

I have struggled with extreme anxiety and chronic depression and brushed up
against the thought of there being no way forward or out but suicide. During
the closest calls, I was making the most I ever had, living in a nice house,
etc. It didn't really matter though. I felt a tightness in my chest and a
boiling kettle of acid in my stomach from the second I woke up until the
second I fell into fitful sleep. I had a Pavlovian response to the sound of
email arriving on my phone, to the point where it would be in my nightmares.
But it was more than just work; irrational panic and anxiety filled everything
facet of my life. I would nearly pass out from panic attacks when flying, or
worry that the police I saw were going to arrest or harass me for an unknown
crime, or think that any time my family was calling it would be tragic news.

About three months after I most seriously considered suicide, I got a new job,
saw a psychiatrist, saw a counselor, and a few years later I was pretty much
stable. I did have to detox off benzos, but that wasn't too bad.

It has to be understood that highly motivated, highly intelligent people can
be driven to irrational levels of stress from their work. Unfortunately it
isn't as easy as just reminding the person that they aren't their job or their
career, just like you can't treat depression by telling a depressed person to
turn their frown upside-down. This man may still have struggled with stress,
anxiety, and depression even if he left Uber for somewhere healthier; what's
important now is that people reading this story or these comments realise that
there are always so many ways out, and that no matter what there are resources
to keep you afloat.

~~~
throwaway8800
> I had a Pavlovian response to the sound of email arriving on my phone, to
> the point where it would be in my nightmares.

I went through a rough period last summer where a project I was involved in
was a complete disaster. I basically spent 24x7 terrified that a new
"emergency" was going to roll in on my phone via email with a stakeholder
telling me how this new issue was ruining their life and how disappointed they
were; an issue which I was expected to deal with immediately. After that
summer and to this day I keep my phone in "Do Not Disturb" mode 24x7 and treat
it as a passive communications device that I only check when I want to,
because I have literally run out of notification tones on my phone that don't
send a burst of adrenaline through my body upon hearing them.

This is even after that project is over. I feel like it permanently damaged my
brain and my ability to deal with stress.

I have used smartwatches that notify you when an email comes in by vibrating
on your wrist. I view these as modern-day human "shock collars" where the
shock collar beneficiary is actually not you, but your employer. I actually
warn others against falling into that trap of wearing a "shock collar for
work". Having your arm vibrate the moment an email comes in is not healthy.

~~~
coldpie
I just don't put work email on my personal devices. If I'm not at the office,
I'm not working. Done. Otherwise you can pay me to be on-call, and that's a
whole other discussion.

~~~
pm90
100% this. Last time I had work ask me to install slack or email on my
personal device, I politely declined, but suggested they provide me with
another mobile device specifically for that purpose. They didn't do that; but
if they had done, I would have most likely kept it off of me after work hours.

------
kirillzubovsky
It's amazing how a toxic work environment can dismantle an otherwise perfectly
fine human in a matter of months. For anyone who is reading this thinking it
can't, I've seen a number of friends get completely demotivated and numb due
to the circumstances of their work. Luckily all ended up finding better jobs,
but the PTSD was real and took everyone a long time to shake off.

I can totally believe this guy was a great engineer too, as I've seen the work
stress affect the best ones the most. The lazy and dumb can coast for months,
speaking fancy words and pretending to be working, but really smart people
actually want to deliver value and they grow tired and frustrated when they
can't.

Stress isn't talked about much in SV, as the focus is on growth and revenue,
and it's a shame. You can't build a long-lasting company without good people.

~~~
defined
Totally concur.

------
65543543
My heart goes out to the whole family.

A while ago, a long long friend of mine suddenly messaged me out of the blue
reminiscing on old times and stuff. I could sense something was amiss. I
planned an impromptu trip to see him. I didn't bring anything up...we just
chatted about the good old times, cracked a few inside jokes etc. He was
visibly much better when I started back after a few days. We promised to be in
touch but it kinda dwindled from there.

He got back in touch again and this time told me that he was seriously
contemplating the last ride and my trip made him change his mind.

~~~
abalone
Please encourage your friend to see a psychiatrist. It may save their life.

~~~
throwanem
Not that you're necessarily wrong, but you're not necessarily right, either.
I've been in not too different a place, and I can say with some confidence
that all the psychiatrists in the world don't add up to one good friend who
cares.

Look after those relationships, folks. Lose them and they're gone forever.

~~~
abalone
The parent comment noted they fell out of touch with their friend.

As for your confident advice, that's only true for you. The Uber engineer who
took his life had a loving family.

Everyone having suicidal thoughts should be screened by a psychiatrist.
Sometimes it takes medication and medication saves lives.

~~~
jankedeen
Medication is a problem unless you are sick. We all need confirmation and less
pressure...are we sick because of that?

------
NovaS1X
This article has resonated with me far more than I thought it would.

I can't help but think that this is not just an Uber culture problem but a
problem of culture in general. Hyper productivity is so in fashion and I don't
think it's good for us.

I spent a number of years in tech in Vancouver and during my time I went
though a period of unconscious breakdown which ended up with me in the
hospital with perimyocarditis (heart failure due to unknown reasons, ie:
stress).

After a number of years doing what I have aspired to do for what is really the
majority of my conscious life, I ended up quitting my career and just leaving
altogether. I met a girl, she was not from my country, and when she had to
leave, I took the opportunity as an out from the life that I was living. At
the same time, I began using photography as a way to explore my new city and
as a creative outlet, as tech no longer was that outlet and became a source of
stress.

The interesting thing is, once I left tech and began to put my free time in to
photography I got caught up in the same culture that I've been trying to
leave. Managing Instagram, Facebook, 500px, Flickr, and YouTube profiles to
garner my following. The constant idolization of " work work work" I see
YouTubers and IGers tout. Constantly judging myself against other people.
Always feeling like I'm not good enough yet or that I'm lacking in talent that
other naturally have. Believing that I'm not living my life correctly in
relation to the perceived 10xers around me. Chasing the illusion of the 1%.

This article handed me an epiphany. I'm only taking the life I want to leave
with me.

Why is it so that I feel the need to chase hyper productivity as a measurement
of success?

~~~
bonesss
> Why is it so that I feel the need to chase hyper productivity as a
> measurement of success?

The ideals of Protestant Work Ethic have historically dominated north american
culture, and provided a work-oriented definition of personal worth. Nose to
the grind stone as the most salient measure of personal contribution...

It's one of the reasons I believe that aggressive photography is so common
from American, German, and Japanese tourists: it's a vacation-job to fill the
days so that even vacation seems like needed production.

Fevered work dreams do not a life make, and cameras quickly turn into filters
to avoid experiencing things directly. And the bottom line is that we all need
to learn to sit on the floor and play like a 2 year old, without filters and
without external expectations.

------
joeblubaugh
Please know that if you are feeling hopeless, like you are a failure, and that
there is no recovering, there are people who will help you. You are not your
job or your accomplishments, you are worth it and there are people who love
you and will help you.

In the Bay Area, call (415) 781-0500 to talk with someone who can help.
[http://www.sfsuicide.org/](http://www.sfsuicide.org/)

~~~
jupiter90000
If someone is in the state of mind of wanting to take their own life, will
they desire to call to talk to a stranger on a hotline?

"In spite of their popularity and attractiveness, so far there is no
conclusive evidence on the effectiveness of suicide prevention hot lines and
crise centres" (2004)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1414695/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1414695/)

~~~
toomuchtodo
Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, we should still strive to give that person
alternatives.

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle". -- Plato

Edit: @aaron695: that is what I was trying to communicate

~~~
golergka
Why do we, in general, accept any personal decision that does not interfere
with other people, but refuse to accept the ultimate decision a person can
make in regards to his live?

I'm not suicidal at the moment and feel that my life has some purpose - but
why would I assume that a person who is suicidal knows less about his own life
than I do?

~~~
gk1
The decision to commit suicide is rarely made in a rational state of mind.
Unlike most decisions, however, this one is permanent.

~~~
shkkmo
This is true for suicide due to depression or other mental health issues.

However, deciding to commit suicide due to intractable terminal illness is
often done in a very rational state of mind.

The big difference is that the later is a decision that is/should not be made
alone, but with the assistance of your family, friends and or doctor.

~~~
coldpie
Euthanasia is not really relevant to what's being discussed here.

------
elvinyung
X-posting my comment from the other post because I think it's worth
discussing:

> Uber denied the benefits claim through its insurance carrier.

That seems like an extremely terrible move, even if Uber might be technically
correct. Deciding to do that makes them look awful, and I think that's what
matters most, given everything else contributing to their public image right
now. It could have been a great opportunity to look magnanimous.

~~~
WaxProlix
> Uber denied the benefits claim through its insurance carrier.

> Deciding to do that makes them look awful, and I think that's what matters
> most

Yeah a dude was driven to kill himself and left his family behind and some bad
optics are what matter most, please tell me I'm misreading this somehow?

~~~
Applejinx
You could say matters most 'to Uber', without it being as shocking a statement
since they are famously a big corporation with a loose connection to ethics
and human morals. If anything, they've got an inverse connection and need to
continually signal that they are fierce and mean, and won't make any
concessions to anybody or anything.

------
jjm
All, Hear me out. The first thing you need to overcome is not your wallet, or
your options, timing or any other thing. It is -- your mind.

If you experience this level of pressure, quit. And then start looking. Do not
be influenced that your boss is the boss of your life or your career for that
matter.

If you've got a family to take care of, quickly join a consulting firm. Worst
case you'll have to travel some, but it buys you some mental time to start
looking for another job. And it sure beats Hell. People WILL tell you to not
quit but they won't know how much pressure your in. They don't need to know.
Just quit and find a better place. Garden, paint, chill with your espresso,
take up that book you never read, or that new lang you never used. Do
something positive.

You hold the power to fix this. Quit, and find a new Job. Do it for yourself,
do it for your family, for your friends, do it for open source communities
that you contribute to.

There is always a way out, and don't let anyone make you think that the only
way out is a tiny little door -- to hell. Because what they don't tell you is
that the door is fake. Your already in hell.

Bust down the walls of your mind and get out.

~~~
thesmallestcat
Tell that to somebody who has a family, or is paying child support/alimony.
I'm sure their ex will sympathize that it's not about your wallet, but your
mind.

~~~
ryandrake
Thank you, just quitting and crossing your fingers hoping you'll maybe get a
new job at some point in the next 1-100 months is not an option for anyone
with actual responsibilities.

~~~
jjm
So that is what you'd say... to this guy the day before he did what he did?
uh...

What responsibility is he addressing now? What money is he bringing in now?

Exactly. Nothing.

~~~
thesmallestcat
Yea, I'm sure losing your home, wife, and family, or getting served papers by
your ex and declaring bankruptcy, would work wonders for your mental health.
Events like that never drive somebody to suicide. Nope.

------
Illniyar
I think we are missing some information here: "All suggested that he leave his
job, but he was adamant that he could not. "

The question is why? what conditions need to occur where a man who most likely
can get another job easily enough and who has switched jobs before decides
that ending his life his a better course of action then switching jobs.

They wrote that he eventually saw a psychiatrist, was he prescribed SSRI
medication (I.E. Prozac)? If so, the other articles on HN suggest that that
may be the cause, and not Uber's work environment.

All of that isn't to say to Uber's work environment is ok, but unless there
was some form of coercion to keep the job (debt, noncompetitive wages, medical
insurance issues), I don't think it's fare to blame Uber for the suicide. Mass
worker exodus or a union is the way to change a company's work environment.

~~~
TuringNYC
I know some people, especially women, in this situation right now. They are
under tremendous stress at work, sometimes marginalized or bullied. But they
are forced to stick through it due to equity agreements.

Leaving means some wont see their equity grants vest. Some may be forced into
major tax payments if they leave (due to options.) And some lose it
alltogether. The way these things work, sometimes you end up paying enormous
taxes and still end up with largely illiquid equity, which may remain illiquid
for years. It is hard enough to land a job where the equity is worth
something. People stick it out because a liquidity event can be life changing
and liberating.

I realize equity agreements are created for retention, but they have the
unfortunate impact of keeping people in jobs when it is better for both
employee and employer to part ways. Something needs to be done about that. I
don't know what.

~~~
Neliquat
Sorry, but making a deal you later regret is not the same. You can negotiate a
slightly higher salary and no options if you can't deal with the risk.

~~~
TuringNYC
In the case of one friend, yes she made a deal. She didn't think the deal
included constant harassment by colleagues. Life isn't black and white.

~~~
obstacle1
Your OP was specifically about being handcuffed to a job because of equity
considerations. How it isn't so easy to quit, you see, because equity.

In the case of this 'one friend', she was not handcuffed to a job because of
equity considerations. Therefore, no problem for her to quit.

Kind of works against your original point, not for it.

~~~
TuringNYC
I'm not really sure how you know my friend, or even which friend I'm speaking
about, so I don't know how you'd know her situation. She's handcuffed because
she's put in years of effort and hoping for a liquidity event before she
leaves, lest she leave with little or nothing. She's miserable for entirely
different reasons -- due to treatment she receives at work from what she tells
me.

Not sure why this would be surprising -- this situation is very common across
startups. I am a co-founder also, and I have equity vesting agreements,
understandably, as I want retention; I don't want employees constantly leaving
with the next wind that blows. At the same time, I'd hate to keep a miserable
employee who isn't fully productive. I'd like to think I set a good enough
workplace culture that there wouldn't be harassment/bullying, but who knows...

What is more wicked, and beyond me as a business owner, is US tax treatment on
illiquid equity. That really needs to change.

~~~
poikniok
You can prevent employees from constantly leaving by simply paying them
enough, see what any sector without equity comp does.

------
fredsted
It's really mind-boggling this happened after less than 6 months at Uber. I
wonder what it must be to work there. Sounds absolutely horrifying.

~~~
defined
It's not just Uber. There is no shortage of toxic workplaces, sadly.

~~~
rhizome
Nobody's saying it's just Uber, but this post is about Uber.

------
hackits
Just remember there no point earning the mega $$$$ when you're going to put a
bullet in a gun and shot yourself in the head because of the stress. Look
after yourself first.

------
markbnj
I've never felt like he seems to have felt, so I can't put myself in his
shoes. But my first thought on seeing the picture of his family at the top of
that post was that trying to reverse-engineer whatever misery would cause a
man to take that step, to leave his family that way, to do it in a way that
was almost certain to force his wife or even, horribly, one of his kids to
confront the results, is fruitless. Maybe someone with a deep professional
understanding of the human mind would have some insight. "Uber did it" is a
far too coarse answer imho.

------
throwawayosiu1
Throwaway as usual:

Just last weekend (Friday), I thought I had reached my breaking point. I could
not handle my job, my friends, my parents and my side idea to the point I
convinced myself that the only solution to my problems was suicide. I went on
to 4chan to ask for help on the quickest solution.

The only reason I'm alive today is because Amazon does not have a quick
shipping policy (what I ordered would have taken me over a week to receive).
Now I'm taking one day at a time in the hope that I don't reach that situation
again.

I truly feel sad for both the Engineer and his family!

~~~
SmellTheGlove
Quit your job and work the rest out later. Ask your parents and friends for
support. I'm a total stranger and I'd rather you not be dead, so imagine how
the people that know you would feel.

We have this problem in our American culture: If we're not careful, we begin
to derive our self worth from our work. You can choose not to do that. Quit,
and when you're ready to go back to work, work to live, not the other way
around. Fuck it, take something menial for a bit that doesn't follow you home.

------
kfkhalili
Does anyone think that this culture of extreme competitiveness and "working
hard" benefits employers before it reaches the employees?

~~~
sundvor
Surely, the question should be whether anyone thinks whether the reverse is
the case: Do anyone actually think employees benefit from working themselves
(to death..) before employers?

~~~
kfkhalili
My point exactly.

------
trustfundbaby
Man, this really hit home. That guy's life could have been mine.

I had this almost this same experience 2 years ago (we were at the job for the
same length of time even, five months), and it led to a long period of
depression for me. I didn't kill myself, but I have to tell you, I could see
how someone could.

In my circumstance I interviewed as a Senior Engineer, and got offered a Lead
engineer position because apparently I had impressed everyone so much (this is
important because later, they would claim I wasn't even good enough to be a
senior engineer). I erroneously thought that I would get support and
encouragement, I got none of those things. Worse still I was the only black
engineer in the entire company at that location, which left me incredibly
isolated during my work days, when things got really really rough.

Essentially, 70 days into my tenure, despite 30 and 60 day reviews that seemed
fine, my manager and architect of the codebase I worked on, decided I wasn't
up to snuff, and essentially started a process of managing me out of the
company. My manager was a very smart engineer but a world class jerk, so when
I complained to HR about the unfairness, he was demoted so that both of us
were now leads, but guess what?

The Performance improvement process continued ... I got a new boss, but he
just picked up where the other guy left off. The kicker?

He worked in another city so he actually got feedback on my performance from
guess who? my new peer, who clearly now had an axe to grind.

Everything was downhill from there, everything I did was shit, everything. I
remember going into work one day and my boss sending me an email that
essentially said "you're not performing at lead engineer level, and you are
not even at senior engineer level, if we're being honest", great morale boost.

When I tried to ask for help (remember I'd never been a lead before) it was
turned around as me trying to assign blame to other people. I had nobody to
help me, and worse, I was the only black engineer at that location. I felt
like and absolute failure everyday for 30 days (they had a 90 day introductory
period, so they gave me an additional 30 days to "prove" myself, but in
addition I had to agree to that Performance improvement plan, I mentioned
earlier.

At one point, I was barely sleeping, was super stressed out and anxious, even
on weekends. I'd go into meetings with my new boss, and the old one (remember
he's my peer now) with his superior knowledge of the code base (he built it)
would throw me under the bus, claiming I wouldn't hit my dates, or that my
estimates were wrong. Openly, in front of 7 or 8 people, and the new boss
would tolerate it.

To add to all this, I was on an h1b, and had left a job that was processing my
green card to join this new company. So if I lost the job, I would be right
back to square one with everything, and I'd have to find a job within 30 days.
Throw that in the mix with being told everyday that I was crap, not having
anyone at work to talk to about what was going on, being on a performance
improvement plan and walking around totally humiliated wondering what everyone
must think of the dumb black engineer who couldn't even hack it a couple of
months.

Anyway, the final straw came when I delivered my project pretty much on time,
but my boss changed his tune from "poor performance" to "culture fit". I had
known the game was rigged and I was just being managed out, but at that moment
I knew it for a fact, and asked to be allowed to give 2 weeks notice, but
spend the 2 weeks at home not working for the company, but looking for a job.

They agreed to that, and I was gone.

But that wasn't the end of that. turns out that at the end of that 2 weeks
they had my h1b revoked (usually companies will let it sit a few weeks,
especially if they know you're looking for work). This meant that when I
landed a job 30 days later, my visa couldn't be transferred, and the company
had to take back their offer, and move on.

If not for an amazing lawyer who worked some black magic to get my green card
8 months later, (I had an approved i140 from an earlier job, but didn't
realize the significance of that, turns out, its VERY significant). I really
don't know what I would have done.

Those 8 months were truly some dark times, I left the job in October, and let
me tell you, being out of work over holidays is no joke, everyone is out
making plans and traveling to see family, and there you are contemplating the
epic shit your life has become, almost overnight. In addition to failing so
badly at a job I desperately wanted to succeed in, I couldn't work for 8
months, and even worse, didn't know if I'd be allowed to stay in the country.
I was pretty depressed, but I had a group of engineering friends that helped
me keep my spirits up, and listened to my rants (no idea how they put up with
it honestly), and I think the biggest thing was that a good friend of mine
(pretty much my sister), got me into therapy. That was MASSIVE.

If not for that ... who the fuck knows.

So yeah ... I can totally see the cascade of events that lead to this mans
death, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of horrible management, as was the
case for me. I wouldn't be shocked to find that he was placed on a performance
improvement plan, and just ... gave up.

PS: I'm a bit of a fighter, I don't shirk from an argument, and I'll call bs
when I see it. This has got me in trouble at a couple of places I've worked,
but ironically, thats probably something that helped me power through the
absolute disgrace of an experience that I went through. I could see how a more
mild mannered person, especially a high achiever would just ... not.

I mean, can you imagine having to explain to your wife and Children that
you're on a performance improvement plan (which I'm almost 100% sure that this
man was on). As a man that has to absolutely destroy you. I didn't even tell
my parents and brothers what had happened for several months, I was just too
ashamed.

~~~
justlearning123
You should name the company that treated you so badly. They would likely
continue such treatment to others who are on visa.

------
botchagalupe
In Japan they have a name for this.. karōjisatsu.. It literally means suicide
from work. I wrote about this about two years ago below. Our industry (IT)
could be worse than others due to the different kind of stress it creates.
Here's some work/research I have done on this.

[http://itrevolution.com/karojisatsu/](http://itrevolution.com/karojisatsu/)

[http://itrevolution.com/karojisatsu-in-plain-english-
burnout...](http://itrevolution.com/karojisatsu-in-plain-english-burnout-is-
killing-us-video/)

We have to band together and do something about this plague...

@botchagalupe

------
abalone
I'll put this out there.. somone who has destigmatized and open sourced
depression is Rob Delaney. Now has an award winning show featuring the late
Carrie Fischer (Catastrophe) but nearly killed him self a few times in the
past and has written extensively about it[1]. Alcoholism too. Psychiatric
medication saved his life. REALLY funny guy, check him out on twitter (best
reason to use twitter still).

[1]
[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/comedy-545-v17n10](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/comedy-545-v17n10)

------
szb
Unfortunately, I can't read this post yesterday. We are working a similar
solution, which can detect and prevent similar situations at management level,
plus gives more productivity based on healthy system (little bit coaching
system). Every manager want a healthy system, don't want to circulate lot of
people in the company day by day. So, I saw ton of different personalities and
skills and every person need to know, where is the border really (is this the
right place for me or what do I need to change? - like a coach). Manager's
views are really subjective.. and therefore many times.. with wrong advisors..
going in the wrong way. I think, very important for the c-level, to identify
similar problems and create actions. Nobody want to see similar things. The
very stressful jobs.. mainly coming from other problems (I worked cxo
position, c-level, board etc), eg. somebody stolen money, slacker in important
position and lot of things. Identify the problems is very important. That is
not so easy and very hard.. to find the right way, .. because every person
needed different viewpoint, how to talk with that person. Plus I saw, the
assertive communication solve many things (in large companies works well).

------
ghughu

      Free markets just means 
      unregulated capitalism just means 
      out-of-control companies ruining workers lives.
    
      This isn't unique to Uber.

~~~
cryptarch
That's not code and quite annoying because only the first ~24 chars are shown
on mobile devices.

------
schneid3306
I stated something similar in a reply below, but I think it is worth repeating
on its own...

It is hard to describe to someone who never experienced a job that is
overwhelmingly and exclusively awful how much of an impact it makes on you.
And I am not talking about a job that you don't like or don't enjoy. I mean a
job that has zero redeeming qualities and a culture that is incredibly toxic.

You feel like a failure at work, but there is nothing you can do to improve or
impress the higher ups. Nothing is good enough. Period. Managers are
instructed not to give out performance reviews any higher than a 3/5 for their
best performers because the company does not want to pay out bonuses. You can
be outputting 44% of the work of a 13 person team and you are called out by
your immediate supervisor because you had a word document open and "it was
closed the next time I walked by. So you clearly are not working your full 8
hours a day." You have to handle the work of three, then four, then five
people because everyone else seems to be getting hired elsewhere and quitting.
And the company certainly isn't replacing them. (Cost savings, yay!) You
aren't able to find a new job despite putting out dozens of feelers and going
to a couple interviews a month, and getting to the final interview rounds for
3 or 4 jobs. Congratulations, you worthless POS. You cannot even get hired out
of that company. Maybe you really are that awful of an employee. You are
miserable. And you see an out (quitting) but if you quit (without a job) there
are a whole bunch of questions. Will someone like you ever be able to find
work again? If you can't find work over five months while you are employed,
what makes you think you would stand out anymore if you were unemployed? And
in some ways the unknowns caused by quitting are even worse than the misery.

So, you go back in the next day and go "no way the prospect of losing my home
can be worse than this." Then you go home and it is "no way my job can be
worse than losing my home and failing my wife and kids." And in both cases you
realize that, yes, somehow, both of those statements are true. The job is more
miserable than losing the home which is more miserable than the job which is
more miserable than letting down my wife and kids which is more miserable than
my job which is more miserable than losing my home which is more miserable
than my job which is more miserable than letting my family starve which is
more miserable than my job...

...and suddenly you find yourself with a gun in the front seat of your car
because there is nothing in life that is not miserable. Nothing.

I was able to quit my toxic job. But if I was in a situation similar to that
of Mr. Thomas, I can easily see why he thought he only had one option. And it
is heartbreaking for his family.

------
siliconc0w
I wonder how much the equity handcuffs are to blame here.

------
clint
Ed Finkler is doing great work with his non-profit Open Sourcing Mental
Illness. They are currently looking for 2017 corporate sponsors, so please
talk with your employers about it!

It would also be a nice move of HN to help them out since this is a huge
problem in the startup world!

~~~
thrillgore
Can we get a link for those who want to donate individually?

------
vivekys
Its sad to see why smart people set themself for failure. Under bad situations
at work all it takes is to go out the front door and not come back. Living a
life where you're just trying to out-compete everybody or oneself is a trap.
Best not to do that.

------
tribby
tragic loss.

I wonder what would happen if companies with high-stress environments employed
on-site counselors. even if employees have outside help already, as mr. thomas
did, it's very difficult -- for so many reasons -- to approach HR or consider
a medical leave due to stress or mental illness. maybe creating a less
daunting first step could help. in general, getting employers more proactively
involved in asking how their employees are doing -- and if they need time off
to heal -- could go a long way. at a certain point, an individual's motivation
or willpower will not turn a situation like this one around, but outside
intervention still might. how do we effectively intervene sooner?

~~~
DanBC
In the UK occupational health schemes have limited success, especially in
companies that have stigmatising views of mental health.

~~~
tribby
that's unfortunate but I guess I'm not too surprised to hear it. I kind of
wonder if it would be more effective in silicon valley where mental health
problems are a bit less stigmatized through a kind of necessity; the most
notable thing about the high school I attended in palo alto is its ongoing
cluster suicide problem.

------
brbrodude
Countries outside America have labor laws to prevent that kind of shit. You
gave away yours.

Edit: I`ve been through two burnouts while working remotely. Gave it up for
good, happily working in my city and have freedom, dignity and respect now. It
is a human need.

Edit2: F*ck Uber.

------
throw2016
I think best to avoid some discussions. If only to avoid being confronted with
the realization you know but try hard to avoid of a world where empathy is in
short supply.

Bad things happen but its how we respond that shines a ray of light through
the darkness. It may gives others stuck in a similar situation a context.

Sometimes we just have to stop and consider where we are as a collective. The
sense of bleakness of an uncaring unfeeling world is devastating I think to
even the most cynical amongst us. When money is put above everything what is
left is this dehumanizing bleakness. And wealth for those who embrace it.

------
throwaway75657
So what should you do if you find yourself in one of these situations and get
let go? It gets really irritating having to explain what happened at the
previous job in every interview.

~~~
searchfaster
Atleast AFAIK in Bayarea, nobody cares as long as you have the skills. I have
had the pleasure of working with some amazing engineers & team players who
were let go in earlier jobs.

~~~
Applejinx
Twice there you have re-sealed the trap. Oops.

As an indie developer doing one sort of 'dream job' (distributing exceptional
software for free and moving towards open source, supported entirely by
voluntary small contributions like some DSP Bernie) it's pretty easy for me to
see the catch.

You can do anything you want IF you 'have the skills' and are 'amazing'. If
you're not sufficiently amazing, then you're fooling yourself and might as
well suicide (that's the feeling) because you're doomed anyhow. There is no
one specific level of 'the skills' or 'amazing', it's a sort of sliding scale
in which you can begin to lose simply because everyone around you took a level
in 'amazing'. And everyone around you is incredibly driven and desperate…

You can call this motivational and not be so far wrong, but there's a really
dark side when society is set up to have harsh punishments for losing. Ain't
no welfare T-Bone steaks for homeless people pooping in the streets of San
Francisco. I can't help but feel that in the Bay Area, there's no clear floor
you can drop to. You can be amazing… or you can be NOT amazing, and there
might be a level of 'untouchable caste' to the NOT amazing.

My own psychological method of fighting this (in my field there's definitely
an element of 'abandon the losers before they saddle you with being associated
with their fail') is to be defiant, claiming that I'm very poor but on an
upward trajectory because I've seen the light of Open Source etc, that I am
audaciously redefining what it means to be a dev/creator, and might decide to
be always poor as dirt just to be defiant about it. It does keep me from
suicide: finally committing to that POV made a noticeable difference. I think
this attitude is echoed among other open-sourcers.

~~~
keeptrying
You have to have your own standards/narrative that you really believe in.

Or rather you have to shake off the years of schooling where you've been
judged and accepted it.

Living below your means is a good ethic that allows you to battle idiot
bosses.

Defiance of the lunacy in the workplace is key for mental health.

------
ajhurliman
I truly feel awful for the family, but to play devil's advocate: What could
you do if you were in Uber's position to prevent something like this?

And no cop-out answers like "Don't make an environment that pressures people"
(everyone has deadlines, pressure is ubiquitous). What, specifically, would
you do tomorrow to prevent this in the future if you were the CEO of Uber?

~~~
drewbug01
> would you do tomorrow to prevent this in the future if you were the CEO of
> Uber?

Resign, and recommend someone in my stead who is capable of managing a more
compassionate organization into existence. Those exist - and conversely, the
apparent shit-show that is Uber is driven from the top-down.

------
uladzislau
There're two critical ways out of the situation like this which looks like
severe major depression to me - 1. remove yourself from the stressful
situation 2. seek medical help.

The worst in this situation is that the person is unable to clearly understand
the severity of the situation and take an action so the role of friends and
family becomes the critical one.

------
thrillgore
Every time I hear a story about Uber I seriously wonder if the employees and
drivers should unionize.

Presuming that even if there was some positive story to come out of Uber and
that news editors know negative stories about Uber brings in clicks, when has
anything positive regarding them come to light?

------
siculars
My condolences to this persons family. May his memory be a blessing.

Ever hear the saying "where there's smoke, there's fire"? At this point I'd
really have to evaluate whether or not Uber is the right kind of fit for
anyone to be working there. There are other options.

------
zappo2938
Mental health is often an issue that comes up on Hacker News. Perhaps, Y
Combinator can contribute to the community yet further by providing research
and services for mental health issues which plague the tech industry.

~~~
clint
It would be really great and important if HN would partner with Open Sourcing
Mental Illness (OSMI): [https://osmihelp.org/](https://osmihelp.org/)

------
divanvisagie
Anyone notice how quickly this got removed from the front page?

~~~
throwanem
It's still there as of this writing.

------
tempw
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14194112](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14194112)

------
diebir
Whatever's the cost, Uber should make it right for the guy's family.

------
noway421
At this point one might ask, why have we not heard this stories before?

------
codinghorror
This is so depressing. Shame on you, Uber.

------
ensiferum
"For Zecole Thomas, mourning the loss of the husband she met in 11th grade, it
was “baffling and confusing” to be denied workers’ compensation. “He had a
great work ethic; he devoted his life to work,” she said. “I was sure they
would reciprocate.”"

How stupid are you if you're willing to sacrifice your life (literally) for
work. Yeah... I'm sure your employer will recipocrate... (not)

------
Zelmor
What I have found out over the years is that having roughly 4-6 months worth
of living expenses in the bank (unblocked and accessible within 24 hours)
alleviates stress. Figure out how many months worth of savings makes you feel
comfortable, and have an 'oh shit' budget figured out for times of
willing/unwilling unemployment. For example, I can cut my spendings by 40% in
case of unemployment simply by cutting luxury items. That 2.5 kilograms of
light roasted coffee each month, dining, massage and clothing expenses isn't
all that necessary, and can be cut temporarily.

So yeah, being able to quit and leave whenever I want and take 2-3 months of
break does take off a lot of weight from one's shoulders. 40 hours a week with
no overtime or on-call for me! I will not be the employee with the mad bonuses
when the time comes for that, but I will also be the one not on
medication/suicide watch/psychiatric aid. The company will have a stable
workforce that is able to care an adequate amount for the company's well-
being, and I will not spend my bonus on keeping my health intact. If you don't
want to employ such a person, I don't want to work for you either. Easy as
that. :^)

So yeah, the essence of my comment, I would say, is that make sure you have
financial get-away. You don't have to subscribe to the crazy USA way of
overtime>money>health issues>expenses>overtime to compensate for expenses.
Having a small vegetable garden also helps, or just caring for plants on your
windowsill.

Also, cats.

~~~
loftyal
Doesn't help when you have notice period of 2 months

~~~
paulcole
For the most part, in the United States, this kind of notice is a courtesy not
100% required.

~~~
JBReefer
Are there any states where it's illegal to just walk out? I know you can in
New York and all of the Midwest.

~~~
paulcole
I have no legal knowledge, but since that has never stopped anyone on the
internet from speculating in the past:

1\. Seems like it might be criminal to walk off the job if you're a surgeon in
the middle of a operation, firefighter at a fire, etc.

2\. Otherwise, it seems possible that you could be sued by your employer for
walking off the job but criminal, probably not.

3\. If my employer tried to physically prevent me from leaving work, I'd call
the police immediately.

------
paradite
Meta but relevant: 57 points in 35 minutes with no heated debates in comments,
but not top story, suggesting high number of flags by users if I remember
correctly about HN ranking algorithm.

Edit: Apparently this was a repost of the story, initially posted 15 hours ago
(and 8 hours ago again):

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14194112](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14194112)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14198372](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14198372)

Edit again: Now this submission has also been marked as dupe after 1 hour of
front-page. Looks like mods don't really want this story to get too much
attention.

~~~
glogla
There seems to be a trend where anything negative against a major company
(most often microsoft, apple and google) is flagged rather quickly. My guess
is that they realise how important HN is for public perception by tech people
and run PR teams here.

~~~
3131s
Very possible.

If an Uber executive or PR person were particularly unscrupulous (would that
surprise anyone at all?), another method would be to say something really
insensitive in a thread like this and start a flame war to trigger HN's
ranking algorithm. Imagine how easy that would be... a somewhat carefully
disguised comment with the sentiment of "depression is just weakness, suck it
up!" would rightfully send this thread into a frenzy of angry commentary and
downvoting.

~~~
fstuff
I noticed that story about flying cars has been posted like 20 times. Maybe
the PR from firm is trying to get this story buried in the noise

------
defined
Moderators:

This thread has essentially disappeared, along with a great deal of very
useful comments, because there are apparently duplicates of it. Never mind
that this has more comments than the others.

Instead of being near the top of HN, where I believe it deserves to be, it is
gone. This is unwarranted, and merits serious consideration of merging the so-
called dupe threads.

Failure to do this will surely look rather suspicious, don't you think? Some
people are already mentioning that it didn't rise in the ranks even after
getting around 50 points in several minutes.

~~~
thesmallestcat
If you don't want HN's poorly designed algorithms or dang/sbct's whims to
control your discussions/what you see on HN, I strongly encourage you to use
[http://hckrnews.com/](http://hckrnews.com/), where posts don't get
disappeared.

~~~
defined
Thanks, didn't know about that one.

------
merricksb
Previous discussions:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14194112](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14194112)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14198372](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14198372)

~~~
abpavel
This thread had more points and comments than the previous two combined.

~~~
trustfundbaby
yeah very upsetting to see such a good discussion shut down just because its a
dupe.

------
princetontiger
Get the hell out of SV. It's become a pressure cooker because of many, many
reasons.

------
jankedeen
Oh, yes. Strikes a chord. Work till you drop and not make any friends =
disaster.

------
defined
I'd like to address the many comments that try to be helpful and offer advice,
while expressing bemusement that the obvious step of just leaving and getting
another job was apparently rejected in favor of suicide.

Edward de Bono of Lateral Thinking fame wrote a book named "Po: Beyond Yes and
No" [1].

While not the most catchy title, in the book he describes the process of
forming patterns in the mind as analogous to pouring warm ink over jello.
After a while, channels begin to form and the ink naturally starts to flow
down the channels, deepening them. It's pretty obvious that (a) knowing you
are stuck in a groove takes some insight and (b) breaking out of the thought
patterns can be pretty challenging.

De Bono also invented the L game. The interesting thing about this game is
that it demonstrates very visually a flaw in human thinking: once you have
started down a path in a decision tree and pruned off other possibilities, all
your answers from that point onwards will be wrong if that path doesn't
contain the right answer.

Pretty obvious, but where the flaw comes in is that, unlike computers, humans
don't tend to backtrack past a point of a belief that "this is axiomatic", and
never reexamine it.

I think that - and this is just IMHO - people who go on to commit suicide when
there are other, obviously better solutions, are stuck deep down the wrong
branch of a decision tree and incapable of reevaluating prior decisions.

Offering rational advice to people in this position is futile; what's needed
is to help them pour warm ink to form new channels.

[1]: [https://www.amazon.com/Po-Beyond-Yes-Edward-
Bono/dp/01401378...](https://www.amazon.com/Po-Beyond-Yes-Edward-
Bono/dp/0140137823)

~~~
Neliquat
Can you express any way to 'pour ink' in a literal sense? Or is this all just
a fun game likening something breathtakingly complex, to 'ruts form'. It
sounds distinctly like well meaning bullshit itself.

~~~
DanBC
> Can you express any way to 'pour ink' in a literal sense?

Yes. You get a pot of liquid ink, and pour it. I'm not sure why this is
confusing, or why you dislike the metaphor so much.

------
dominotw
> turned down job at apple

> was scared he'd lose his job at uber

Seems like some sort of the cover up by the family to blame shift on work
stress.

What a sad waste of life. Rest in peace friend.

------
adolfaiken
an old story for uber :(

------
olgeorge
I'm pretty sure Uber is responsible for global warming too. I mean yes, that's
very sad, but let's be reasonable about it, uber is probably not the only
intensive work place, and the guy was not the only one under pressure.

------
handsomechad
This is kind of ridiculous. My condolences to the bereaved and all that, but
come on. High-paying jobs can often times be extremely stressful, and whenever
I have worked in a pressure cooker environment I have often found myself
questioning whether or not it is worth it to continue working there.
Sometimes, the answer has been no, at which point I figured out my exit
strategy. What I have _not_ found myself questioning is whether or not I
should take my own life.

Obviously, quitting is a much better solution than immediately jumping to
suicide. Of course depression doesn't work logically like that, but unless he
was being systematically bullied or hazed it seems completely unfair to blame
the employer in a situation like this rather than his own psychological
makeup.

I'm not saying that an incident like this shouldn't be alarming and merit
internal investigation and rethinking of cultural norms. Sure, and I'm sure
they did that. But I don't think it's a good precedent for an employer to be
held responsible every time an employee self-harms. They aren't your parents;
it is after all "At Will" employment.

~~~
pscsbs
First of all, this is not ridiculous (i.e. deserving or inviting derision or
mockery). Many of us are under immense pressure to provide for our families in
HCOL environments, and love our families more than ourselves. From personal
experience, I can say this pressure can make you feel like you have no out --
you must take care of the ones you love or else face them living an extremely
hard life. This can easily drive you to feel like there is no other option but
keep on working hard to support your loved ones.

Switching jobs is no guarantee you'll escape this spiral, and switching to a
lower-paying career would put you in a corner. And therein lies the dilemma --
you can't quit, but you'll die (or be extremely depressed) if you stay.

Additionally, at least in the US, the government does not provide the types of
social benefits to augment the pressure of the corporate workplace.

Therefore, corporations (who are often generating millions if not billions in
revenue) have a social responsibility to their workers to make sure they are
operating in an environment where they feel they can succeed and provide for
their families, without compromise for mental health.

~~~
handsomechad
I mean that the outrage at Uber for this is what is ridiculous. Maybe not the
story, or even the lawsuit (I understand the family seeking compensation for
something like this), but the vitriol directed in Uber's direction for this
seems more to do with their place as the current evil tech boogeyman more than
anything else.

It was his decision to live in a HCOL area, from what I read his family was
encouraging him to quit the job and decompress but he refused to listen. My
point is that this sounds like a psychologically compromised and severely
depressed man who ended up committing suicide. I'm sure a big part of that was
because of his job. But I'm not sure that this ipso facto means Uber should be
the subject of our ire.

And to be clear, I'm bearish on Uber, and frankly I usually enjoy the Uber
schadenfreude that gets posted here recently. I just don't think this
particular instance has much merit, it's just more ammo for the Uber = The
Devil bandwagon jumpers.

>>> "Before his death, Thomas expressed both to his father and wife that he
felt immense pressure and stress to the point where he was scared he would
lose his job. In meetings with a psychiatrist, Thomas told the doctor he was
experiencing panic attacks, trouble concentrating, and debilitating anxiety.
Everyone instructed him to leave his job, but he was adamant that he could
not.

“He was always the smartest guy in the room,” said his father, Joe Thomas. But
while working at Uber, “he went down the tubes. He became someone with very
little confidence in himself. The guy just fell apart.”

His wife added, “It’s hard to explain, but he wasn’t himself at all. He’d say
things like, ‘My boss doesn’t like me.’ His personality changed totally; he
was horribly concerned about his work, to the point it was almost
unbelievable. He was saying he couldn’t do anything right.” "

~~~
defined
I think Uber is currently a lightning rod for everything that's wrong with
technical employers, especially in the USA. I think there is a great deal of
simmering rage against the widespread mistreatment of engineers, and Uber has,
in a sense, become the monster that has the villagers getting out their
torches and pitchforks.

