

Facebook has just invited me to interview and now I’m pissed off - deniswolf
http://dw.svbtle.com/facebook-has-just-invited-me-to-interview-and-now-im-pissed-off
A lot of people are dreaming about working for one those top companies: Google, Facebook, Apple.
Here is a public response to an invitation from Facebook - it seems the Social Network has lost all of it&#x27;s senses and humanity if it looks for new slaves, not team members.
======
stackcollision
This seems like a very childish response to me. Perhaps it would have been
better to simply decline the offer and list your reasons, rather than berating
the recruiter.

As it currently appears, the argument is not even very clearly thought out.
You just kind of yell at them about slavery and feudalism, which imho doesn't
have any relation to the puzzle you were asked to solve.

I agree that I wouldn't have done it, but then again, I don't want to work for
Facebook.

~~~
deniswolf
If it would be a real time interview - for sure. But after sending CV I just
got that mail with task. Let me underline it - they never TALKED to me. They
asked if I want to send them CV - and right after I got this. I don't have any
problems with recruiter - I'm more than sure it could be a great person - but
if the company gives her such a workflow - it's, from my point of view, is
scary at the least.

~~~
cashmonkey85
Facebook is an odd company. When I applied they sent me a page of information
about how all the people saying the work environment was bad are wrong. Oddly
defensive and sensitive. I live in New Zealand not near SV was unaware of any
bad press until they send me a page of defensive articles unprompted.

------
jiggy2011
Slavery, Factory Sweatshops?

You have a chance of a job at a household name company (who can afford to be
selective) , probably with cushy salary and benefits.

8-10 hours worth of work isn't a great deal, especially if they give you a few
weeks. Even a person working a full time job should be able to squeeze that in
by temporarily reducing hours spent watching TV.

It's not like facebook even get any benefit from you performing this work for
them.

~~~
lazyjones
> _You have a chance of a job at a household name company (who can afford to
> be selective)_

There are many such companies out there and the better ones will talk to you
politely first, look at previous work you've done and then perhaps invite you
over for a couple of interviews (including some code puzzles). I was once
flown from Europe to Florida before any code puzzles, got to see the whole
company, talk to founders (the company was a subsidiary of a household name in
games) and technical directors before sitting down for some tests. It was a
great experience and I felt very bad for turning down the job offer because
they treated me so well ...

Google and Facebook I'd avoid from what I've heard (no firsthand experience
though), they seem to hire talent just to keep it away from the competition.

~~~
jiggy2011
With the number of applications that they must get there's no way they can
afford to talk to everyone, let alone fly them out.

Therefore they need some way to filter people quickly. Would it be better to
do this purely on the basis of resume? Forcing people to invest time making
sure they have the correct mixture of buzzwords or would you rather spend that
time demonstrating that you can actually code?

~~~
lazyjones
> _Therefore they need some way to filter people quickly._

This really depends on whether they chose particular people to contact
directly or whether those applicants contacted the company.

Sure, the 1000s of applications these companies get every month must be
filtered quickly, but if someone was selected for a "cold call" by the
employer (presumably based on some research), then handing him menial tasks
upfront is a terrible idea and unacceptable for the probably more skilled
people typically contacted this way.

------
walkon
_In case you missed it somehow - we live in a society that abandoned slavery,
feudalism and even factory sweatshops more than a few years ago._

Facebook isn't requiring him to do this. They are asking him to if he wants to
get further in the candidate process. Clearly a bad approach by the recruiter
(perhaps a mistake?), but to liken this to slavery is a reach. Just withdrawal
candidacy since you weren't very interested anyway.

~~~
deniswolf
If recruiters from the company well known for free hackers culture are doing
this today - I would assume that less open companies could start free working
month practices tomorrow.

It seems like it was a mistake and miscommunication. I could not expect
Facebook to make such mistakes, but rather change policies. Thankfully I was
wrong.

------
deniswolf
10 hours. It's the time I have spent last week for some open-source coding. I
was happy to give my time for free to those projects I supported. It's about
10 hours that I have spent with a friend of mine who visited me from other
city this week.

I can't imagine spending this time for someone I don't know, someone who never
ever bother to talk to me but demanded them.

Few years ago I have spent few _days_ of work planning project with people
with whom I had interview - just because I started to like them in 10 minutes
of the interview. I ended up working for them for the next few years and some
of them are still my close friends.

I could ignore the offer, decline it (as I did) and live on. But if nobody
will tell those guys in fat cat corporations that they are wrong - they will
continue to think and treat people as "resources", not persons.

You could be ok with that - they do have great salaries, career opportunities
etc. But accepting this treatment as a norm is unthought to me. It's not about
ego, it's about some tiny respect of a human being for a human being.

~~~
j_baker
I seriously doubt that the problem here is that Facebook is trying to make you
a cog in their wheel (at least not with respect to the coding puzzle). Rather,
I think it's just because they feel that requiring this work will lead to
better candidates. If you don't like doing this, vote with your feet and just
tell them "Thanks but no thanks". If enough people do that, they'll probably
stop offering those kinds of questions.

~~~
deniswolf
I'm afraid that Facebook will make a precedent that will turn 10 hours free
coding in a standard, moreover - _before_ even a phone interview.

------
shawnreilly
I had a completely different experience. I've been in contact with Facebook
about potentially working there (Engineering Side) and I would describe my
experience as pleasant, respectful, and interesting. I've learned a lot about
how Facebook approaches problem solving in their environment, and I'm
impressed. From an Engineering perspective, I'm equally impressed with their
architecture and the solutions they've built. Not sure if the OP is asking for
advice, but I'll give you some; If you want something in life, you have to go
for it. Sometimes this means you have to sacrifice something and/or work a
little harder. If you can't put in 10 hours for the opportunity to work there,
what kind of contribution will you make to their organization? Will you take
an initiative to find problems and solve them? Or will you complain about
having to do things, and bring a negative attitude? I don't know the answer
(and I'm not implying anything), but one can only imagine the picture you've
painted with that response. I've been working 10 years to position myself for
these types of opportunities. 10 hours is like a drop in the bucket.

~~~
deniswolf
Thanks for sharing your experience. I have heard a lot of good things about
Facebook before - and my totally opposite experience was one of the reason for
exaggerated reaction.

I agree that there are jobs where I would love to spend days, weeks and months
of free coding and other efforts - all just to get them. But I have very
different expectations of pre-interview process - when I saw it was 'do all
this and mb we ll talk to you' thing.

Again - and I think post's update should explain it - what happened to me was
an exception. I would just never expect to get such an exception from
Facebook.

~~~
shawnreilly
Understood. Hiring is a two way street, it needs to work for both sides. It's
unfortunate how this turned out. But hey, everything happens for a reason
right? Maybe it was not meant to be because something else awesome is right
around the corner. If you are actively looking, I hope you find something that
makes you happy! Take it easy.

~~~
deniswolf
Thanks :)

------
VladRussian2
sounds like a Great Filter that author's ego didn't fit through (not that i'm
in anyway critical of the author, as until we're back in 2003 labor market or
i start to feel [undesired] impact of my age on my opportunities, my ego
doesn't feel like trying to squeeze through even coarser filters), it is just
that moral/ethical/emotional appeals (slavery/etc..) don't work in market.

------
gaius
Sorry, but what a self-important buffoon. Slavery? What "value" does FB get
from his solution to the puzzle, how is it "work"?!

And by the way, there is nothing at all special about getting an email like
this from Facebook, Google, or any of a dozen other firms. They all have
industrial-grade recruiting machines and this initial stage is like a trawler
scooping up half the ocean. If you post on technical forum or mailing list, or
have a LinkedIn profile, it would be more unique _not_ to have been
approached.

------
ddoolin
I don't get it. What benefit are they deriving from the puzzle being
completed? It doesn't even compare to regular work in that way, let alone
sweatshops, assembly lines, whatever.

A lot of people would go to a lot further lengths to work at a place like
Facebook, that's for sure. The holier-than-thou attitude here is so
aggravating, for many reasons.

------
j_baker
I don't really like the author's attitude. But there is some truth to it:
Working 8-10 hours to get a job at Facebook is crap. I'm a professional with a
job and a life. I already have to do phone interviews and in-person
interviews, and now you want me to spend 8-10 hours working on a puzzle?

~~~
shocks
> and now you want me to spend 8-10 hours working on a puzzle?

Perhaps the kind of applicants Facebook are looking for are those that do want
to spend 8-10 hours on a puzzle.

------
ForHackernews
So, uh... don't do the puzzle? I don't really see the problem here.

I really doubt this puzzle constitutes "work" (in the sense of being
beneficial for Facebook's bottom line). This seems analogous to an audition to
me.

------
markolschesky
HR at a large company is not like HR at a small company. Broad strokes have to
be taken to make the process manageable at scale while being somewhat fair.
Generally speaking, the phone screen comes after any pre-requisite criteria
are checked (such as programming competence). Phone screens aren't very useful
from an interviewing standpoint anyways; most simply exist to weed out
candidates that are non-adjusted or have interests that lie entirely elsewhere
(e.g., I only want to work here before I go back for my M.S. in CS in 6
months). They are more for the benefit of the interviewee if the company isn't
a household brand; I think you probably already know most things you need to
know about Facebook.

------
dolphenstein
This post comes off kind of douchey. Sympathies evaporated once you started
mentioning slavery. Factory workers in South East Asia might have a slightly
different opinion on what constitutes slavery.

You could've had some fun with the challenge. E.g. Write a piece of code that
draws a massive middle finger on the screen. That would've been a cooler
response!

Here's how I responded to a small company that was trying to make me jump
through (unnecessary) hoops: [http://www.andrewdyster.com/how-to-fill-out-
selection-criter...](http://www.andrewdyster.com/how-to-fill-out-selection-
criteria-form.html)

(These guys were a small 3-4 man operation, not a mega corp. My way of telling
them to stop acting like dicks.)

~~~
botondus
That response is awesome!

------
onebaddude
I agree with your stance on the subject. It's out of line for them to pass
over the puzzle like that. Kudos for standing up.

On the other hand, your actual response, with all the slave talk, was pretty
juvenile.

~~~
deniswolf
Thanks. Yeah, I understand how it seems to be childish, but I couldn't expect
this behavior and approach from Facebook, known for it's great open culture.
It rather reminded me too strongly about my employer (tiny tech sales company
from 10 years ago) who ended up loosing all his tech department - 5 guys just
left the office one day and never got back.

------
MaysonL
The way to handle this is probably just to send them an invoice for their
requested 8 hours of work, advising them that your standard terms for
assignments of this size are 50% in advance against a final payment of $200 US
per hour.

------
nakovet
I don't mind doing a puzzle to get a job in a good company as I already did.
If you think you shouldn't do the puzzle but you still were interested on
working for Facebook, you could have said: I don't have the time to solve the
puzzle however I have more than 10 hours of contribution on my github, I still
wanna work for Facebook, what's the next step?

------
tjic
I'm semi seriously contemplating doing 2-4 weeks of work to get up to speed
with a weird technology because if I did that I might find it easy to pitch
myself to someone who isn't actively hiring. Probably not a smart move, but
perhaps a very interesting move.

Opportunities have costs. They also have benefits. One evaluates and decides.

Shrug.

~~~
deniswolf
Voluntarily - it's awesome. I'm trying to code out of office as much as
possible - doing toy projects or checking on interesting open-source code. The
problem, from my point of view, is that they think it's acceptable to demand
those hours without even talking to a real person, but rather as a trivial
part of pre-evaluation. It's ugly.

------
alecco
Recruiters from those companies are quite spammy and out of control.

------
shocks
If you're not interested then politely decline. If you're interested then you
have an amazing opportunity many dream of. No one is asking you to work for
free...

------
deniswolf
An update was published after Facebook's representative contacted me. Let's
hope I was the only guy who was treated in such an ugly way.

------
iterative
When I was applying to college they told me that not only did I have to fill
out an application, write an essay and pay a fee, but I had to spend several
hours taking an aptitude test, which I had to study for for several weeks
beforehand. Slavery!

