
An Analysis of the Catalonian Referendum - BuleBule
https://medium.com/contratastic/homage-to-catalonia-all-the-best-bullfighters-were-fascists-8832655c129
======
Oletros
> It is also worth noting that the Spanish own a paramilitary force called the
> Civil Guard who historically enforced General Franco’s will in the region,

And is a paramilitary force like Italian Carabinieri or French Gendarmerie

When the Spanish Civil War started, Guardia Civil in Barcelona defensed the
Generalitat

> who have fascist symbology in their emblem

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces)

He should have looked up where and by whom fasces are used

Is he saying that USA, France, Norway uses fascist simbology?

By the way, talking about bullfighting, CiU was so hypocrital that banned
bullfighting in Catalonia (goood) but didn't ban Correbous in the parts of
Catalonia were they are used.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_on_bullfighting_in_Catalon...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_on_bullfighting_in_Catalonia)

~~~
Oletros
And when the author is answered in Medium his only answer is "shut up"

Yap, he know a lot about Spain and Catalonia

------
petecox
A pro-independence article that could do with some balance.

1) A lot of people see bullfighting as anachronistic even if Cataluña may be
the first to introduce such rules. 2) 'their King' was a second cousin of the
queen of Castile. You have to go back 600 years to find the last of the
original lineage on the Aragonese throne. 3) Franco's regime persecuted a
great number of people and not just the Catalonians. 4) The Catalan language
is one of several languages striving for linguistic prestige - e.g. Galician
and Basque. I even saw graffiti in Covadonga, sacred site of the reconquista,
bemoaning that none of the signs were in Asturian.

~~~
BuleBule
Thank you so much for spreading FUD around my article without actually
addressing any element of it, you are just what the Catalans need right now.
Did you have anything to say about its content, or did you find it well
sourced and accurate?

~~~
petecox
FUD, what FUD?

I just don't find your arguments for separation tell the whole story. I
support self-determination but ultimately the strongest argument for
independence is that Catalonia has a population of greater than several EU
states and could go it alone without federalism.

You mention oppression under Franco. He hated and executed a bunch of people,
from anarchists, to PSOE under Largo Caballero, to hard core communists. Other
language minorities were not allowed to spread their language either. That was
40 years ago. Do you really blame the rest of the country, today, for the
'sins' of their grandparents?

Old wounds and if your hatred is for "Madrid", they were Republicans - NOT
bullfighting fascists.

Galegos and Basques would have equal claim to independence under linguistic
autonomy. But I guess I see bilingualism as a blessing rather than a curse.
And in that regard the Catalonian government's educational policies have been
undoing the historical trauma of Spanish as the "High" language of diglossia.
Yet Valencia isn't calling to become a separate country, despite Valenciano
being a near-identical language.

I'm not condoning the actions of PP, Rajoy or the Guardia Civil by any means.

~~~
BuleBule
What specifically in my well sourced article do you disagree with, most if it
is sourced from wikipedia and reputable media sources. What is wrong with my
article?

~~~
petecox
Your sources are fine, it's the sentiment.

You could have focussed on how Spanish democracy is broken and that Cataluña
no longer wants to be part of that - e.g. the 2015-6 elections where no clear
winner emerged and the rise of Podemos suggested people were fed up with both
PP and PSOE.

But you seem to base your argument on fuelling historical ethnic tensions.
I've given you a counterview.

------
dingaling
This discussion led me to the website of the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples
Organisation:

[http://unpo.org/nations-peoples](http://unpo.org/nations-peoples)

whilst beyond its geopolitical interest also generates a rather nice World map
and overlay using only CSS, no JavaScript.

~~~
BuleBule
Agreed, tis quite nice.

------
tripu
I offer this post of mine to those outside Spain who are being confused (or
misled) by Assange, Snowden, and the international press in general:

"Catalonia: debunking dishonest arguments in favour of the bogus referendum"

[https://medium.com/@tripu/referendum-e53331ddf841](https://medium.com/@tripu/referendum-e53331ddf841)

~~~
ihaveajob
Great post, Tripu.

~~~
tripu
Thanks :)

------
apanoia
Let me introduce all of you to the 60% people living in Catalonia who are
against the independentism movement and who are being forced yes or yes to
participate in an illegal referendum or face ostracism. This referendum is not
democratic at all.

~~~
ssay
>> Let me introduce all of you to the 60% people living in Catalonia who are
against the independentism

could you please reference this information from a reliable source? After the
referendum you will definitely know the real percentage.

>> and who are being forced yes or yes to participate in an illegal referendum

as far as I know, in a referendum you can either choose 'yes' or 'no'. Thus,
you're not silenced, but the opposite: invited to express your will. If it's
really 60% of the Catalans opposed to the independence, what's the matter
then?

~~~
Oletros
> After the referendum you will definitely know the real percentage.

No, you won't

------
charlysl
Shallow one-sided drivel.

Here is a more balanced article by a third party which is not is not exactly
known for its authoritarian views:

[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/23/observ...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/23/observer-
view-catalan-referendum-spain)

~~~
tankenmate
That article just seemed to be grasping for reasons to say no, largely
regardless of whether those reasons were logical. Many diverse parties support
succession? Must be bad. No one over arching party that has succession as
their raison d'être? Must be bad. Minority region doesn't have power to change
the constitution (and hence allow a legal referendum)? Must be bad.

Self determination is one of the pillars of democracy, denying this is a
slippery slope.

~~~
charlysl
First of all, I want to say upfront that I am a Spaniard who, although is
against this referendum, is unhappy with how Spain has historically dealt with
this issue, its historical hostility to embracing Catalonia's culture, which
is one reason why we have arrived at this juncture.

I would just like to point out what i believe are some of the most misleading
statements in the article:

Calling the Guardia Civil a paramilitary force is like calling the carabinieri
and gendarmes the same. It is indeed a police force with a military structure.
However, it is not at all like the armed force of a violent political party,
like, say, the SA.

The constant quoting of the great Orwell is out of context and can be barely
justified as an attempt to keep with the missapropriation of the famous book's
title. Fortunately, Spain, and Europe, are totally different to what they were
like in the 1930s. Spain then was a total mess, with centuries old problems of
all sorts coming to a head all at once, in addition to a massive international
economic and political crisis, which I accept and understand contributed to
Catalonia's drive for independence. It would be like trying to explain
Merkel's Germany by quoting from 1930s foreign books about Hitler.

Ok I could go on and on in the same vein ...

Thankfully, as I said, Spain is a very different country now, and although
emotions are running high, so far both sides have shown a restraint that would
have been unthinkable when Orwell was alive. Something has been learned from
history after all.

At the end of the day, this, as is always the case in the real world, is all
about power, hearts and minds, propaganda, diplomacy, economy, interests, and,
yes, hard power too, although I hope and believe it will not come to that. And
the fact is that the spanish state has the upper hand here and just wont let
it happen, too much to lose. The independence movement's only hope is to
gather a so far lacking foreign support, which is what has allowed other
weaker regions to achieve independence. But in those cases, on top of more or
less plausible reasons for independence, (ex-Yugoslavia, South Sudan, East
Timor, etc) there were attrocities and general mistreatment under
comtemporary, not historical, dictatorships that, lets be honest, thankfully,
is nowhere to be seen in the matter at hand.

Just one historical note: in the 15th century the kingdom of Aragon, which
included Catalonia, was desperate to avoid a French invasion and so came to an
agreement with Castile, which is the origin of modern Spain. Do you really
believe that the alternative for Catalonia would have been independence? It
actually lost a chunk to France anyway, north of the natural border, the
Pyrenees, the Cerdagne and Rousillon. Ok but now is now, I know, and, of
course, there is much more than this. Nobody cares about real history anyway
unless it suits their agenda. This holds for both sides of course.

The referendum is just not the way. For better or worse, the spanish public
opinion, unlike the english one (UK would have lost one of its poorest
regions, Spain its richest, much more at stake), just isn't ready for this.
And even if there was one, and the independentists lost, come on, they would
just call a new one every 2 years until they could claim 50.1%. Who would
elaborate the census? Who would organize it? What would happen afterwards?
This is a very important unresolved issue that the Guardian rightly mentions
when it says that the current coalition in Catalonia is a ragtag mix that can
only agree on one thing.

It is also important to realize that time is also on the spanish side. The
statu quo, although far from ideal, is much more palatable to them. There is
none of the emergency of the separatists, who smell a historical opportunity
in the wake of the mismanaged financial crisis. Nothing new here btw if we
remember that this movement was energized in the aftermath of the huge spanish
crisis of 1898, when the bulk of lingering overseas colonies was lost (and
where the discontent catalonian burgoise had many business interests).

I hope that both leaderships realize that their traditional approach will only
keep leading to a deadlock and that they will finally try to find a compromise
acceptable for all. I am not holding my breath though. Compromise is not a
Spanish word (and compromis has a different meaning).

~~~
tankenmate
If the Catalans follow the lead of Gandhi they won't need foreign support. If
I was a Catalan independence supporter I would advocate for people to pay the
pro rata portion of their taxes that would be allocated to the Catalan region
directly to the Catalan government (if they are in exile or not). If 40% of
Catalans did this, income tax, VAT, etc, then this matter would come to a head
within one year. The EU would have to concede or then sanction violence. They
can't afford to lock up 40% of the population and they can't afford to lose
the revenue. Obviously the money would need to be sent to a repository that
was outside of Madrid's or Brussels's reach. CatCoin anyone? Cryptocurrencies
might be the modern equivalent of Gandhi's Salt March; remove the state's
monopoly control of commerce.

~~~
charlysl
The thing is, and I believe this is key, the relationship is not a colonial
one at all, of submission to an alien foreign power. And there is no way the
democratic spanish government would react like the colonial british one. Nor
would the spanish people tolerate such a heavy handed approach, I dont think
there is hatred, just bewilderement. That was also part of a wider process,
that of decolonitation. What is going on here isn't anything like that, I
think Gandhi's strategy worked partially because of the historical context.

~~~
tankenmate
My view obviously is different, I view it as a matter of self determination.
To me whether it is a matter of colonialisation is largely immaterial. The
reason Gandhi's method works is because it leaves only two options, kill the
complainants or acquiesce. Authority comes from submission, if someone does
not submit to you then you have no authority over them; your only choice then
is to either kill them or let them be. So if a sizeable percentage of Catalans
come to the point of willing to risk everything to no longer submit to Madrid
then Madrid will have only two options. Whether Brussels would allow the first
of those two options is rather obvious. As with the vast majority of things in
this life, the most committed wins.

