
I'm tired - luigi
http://www.andymoore.ca/2013/04/im-tired/
======
famousactress
I hate that feeling.. the knowledge that engaging in the discussion is going
to be exhausting and the chance of making traction is slim, and the feeling
that inaction is the only reasonable alternative. Allow me to suggest another
alternative to actual discussion in situations like this:

Tell the person to fuck off.

I'm serious. It registers disagreement, and to any rational person the lack of
interest in attempting serious discussion. Ideal? No. Preferable to inaction?
Absolutely. Plus where do you even start with a comment like that? I'd prefer
to make it clear that I'm shocked than do someone who would say that the favor
of jumping into a thoughtful discussion about how the merits of their opinion.

~~~
richforrester
For a bit of nuance, instead of "fuck off", you could try something like "I
disagree, but I'm pretty tired of that conversation", and change the topic.

Statement made, stupid comment brushed off, nobody got hurt.

The whole "down to their level and beat you with experience" thing comes to
mind.

~~~
flogic
Actually, I would argue that "fuck off" is the better response. "I disagree"
implies that there's grounds for legitimate discussion when the initial remark
is so far out of line there really isn't.

~~~
lightup88
While I agree wholeheartedly, remember that some of the problem is the current
dichotomy. The sexist ass on one hand and the too non-confrontational to say
anything on the other. I'd posit that it's more useful to figure out a
realistic way to get that second group to speak out--even if it's not a hearty
"fuck off".

~~~
flogic
I'm a non-confrontational person myself actually. It took me over 35 years to
learn being that direct is actually less stressful in certain circumstances.
Quite arguably, I'm still learning it. We get it in our heads that we owe the
asshole an explanation. That's a trap. The explanation becomes it's own source
of stress. Odds are strong, the asshole knows they're being an asshole. No,
explanation is required.

------
danso
This was painful to read. It's hard to get into the usual is-there-sexism-in-
tech-or-not debate because this is so beyond the pale-dysfunctional. First,
that anyone could say such a thing in polite company. Second, that the rest of
the table did not demand the offending person to leave. Seriously, how is
anyone, espicially the targeted woman, expected to enjoy their dinner and have
a non-awkward conversation after that?

And really, this is not just a problem of some guy saying something kind of
sexist. It's a guy who thinks the scales are so much in his favor that he can
just say such a thing to a stranger without really offending people. He's not
beyond hope, but he's not someone you should break bread with without making
clear at he was completely out of line.

Edit: I'm not helping much with the OP's guilt trip...it's never easy thinking
about what you should've done when the shock was over. The OP shouldn't
chastise himself for not throwing a punch or making some other dramatic stand.
But leaving out of protest is always an option. If it makes the troll and
everyone who decided to stay feel awkward, well, that's their decision.

~~~
tiredofcareer
> But leaving out of protest is always an option.

Why should I ruin my evening due to this guy? What exactly are you protesting?
Do you think this kind of person gives a shit if you walk away? Do you think
the entire rest of the table will follow you? (Answer: No.) Stand up to him
and resolve it; if no progress is made and it turns ugly, that person is no
longer welcome at your table and you move on. I laid out a template here[0].

I see lots of people saying "walk away" -- you're letting the troll win.
That's _your_ dinner. This isn't like high school where you can just up and
walk away and get whispers going in the hallway about what happened at lunch
last Tuesday, OMG! Handle it like a grown person.

This is important: _TROLLS WILL CONTINUE TROLLING AS LONG AS YOUR SILLY
CLINGING TO POLITENESS MEANS YOU WON'T CONFRONT THEM_. Your being polite
_enables them_. Think about that. Just don't get it wrong and draw down on a
harmless comment that you misunderstood.

[0]: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5483332>

~~~
jdbernard
It is not _your_ dinner. It is everyone at that table's dinner, troll's
included. And you seem to be stuck on ejecting him from the table. If the
majority of the table agrees with you you can probably shame him into leaving.
How are you going to do that if you don't have that consensus or if he
refuses? Are you going to get physical?

I would probably try to make him leave first, but failing that, walking away
is the appropriate choice. You are passing judgment, in a way, on the whole
party when you do this. You are saying that this behavior is not acceptable in
your company and if the present company disagrees then this is important
enough for you to remove yourself from that company because it is not
something you can tolerate.

We cannot force people to be polite or even tolerant. We can choose who we
keep company with.

~~~
wonderzombie
Simply leaving doesn't hold the aggressor accountable for what they've said; I
think it should be a last resort.

If you leave, probably there's awkward silence, someone makes a halfhearted
joke, and eventually the conversation changes to something else. Out of sight,
out of mind.

If you stay and demand an apology politely but firmly, the aggressor is in an
awkward position. An apology is something utterly reasonable to demand and
there's a lot of social pressure around that, at least if you want to be seen
as a (relatively) mature person.

It _also_ gives the aggressor a way to reconcile. They're probably more likely
to reflect than if you just flounce; the possibility for further conversation
is still there.

Of course, that said, if they apologize insincerely or not at all, there's not
much you can do but leave. But you don't want to raise the stakes that high
until you've offered some concrete way for the aggressor to end the
confrontation.

~~~
jdbernard
Oh, certainly. You should first try to hold them accountable. If the rest of
the table is more concerned with getting past the awkward confrontation than
dealing with the aggressor's behavior, then you leave. I was arguing against
this position:

> I see lots of people saying "walk away" -- you're letting the troll win.
> [..] TROLLS WILL CONTINUE TROLLING AS LONG AS YOUR SILLY CLINGING TO
> POLITENESS MEANS YOU WON'T CONFRONT THEM.

Walking away isn't just politeness and it doesn't mean you don't confront
them. But this type of confrontation is not productive if there is not a
consensus at the table. It devolves into the kind of situation that just makes
the original victim feel smaller and worse. You end up throwing a tantrum
trying to force the rest of the table to punish the aggressor.

Stand up against this kind of behavior, certainly. Hopefully this will give
the others at the table courage to denounce it also and make the offender
unwelcome. But becoming belligerent and trying to force him to leave, as
_tiredofcareer_ seemed to suggest, is not a productive way to handle the
situation.

Best scenario is when you call the person out on their remarks and they
apologize. Short of that, you hope everyone else makes it socially difficult
for them to stay without apologizing. Worst case you leave.

I also strongly disagree with this:

> This isn't like high school where you can just up and walk away and get
> whispers going in the hallway about what happened at lunch last Tuesday,
> OMG!

Yes, this is not highschool. We all expect to be more mature than that. If a
friend of mine left a dinner saying, "I'm sorry, this behavior is not
acceptable to me and I can't stay," that would make me seriously reconsider my
position. This person is my friend. I value their opinion. If they are so
upset that they feel they cannot in good conscience stay then I must have
seriously misjudged the importance of what just happened. That is the reaction
you are trying for.

~~~
tiredofcareer
> If a friend of mine left a dinner saying, "I'm sorry, this behavior is not
> acceptable to me and I can't stay," that would make me seriously reconsider
> my position.

Because you're rational. Someone who doubles down on a comment about someone's
tits being her weather helm for success after being lightly called on it is
not rational. You can't put yourself in this guy's shoes, because you aren't
that guy. I've dealt with this kind of person before, directly, with
significant results.

I, personally, would make a joke at your expense after you're gone and get the
rest of the table back on my side. Because I swim in the middle of this moral
compass. Something like: "wonder what got under his skin, sorry about the
scene, there, guys;" bam, I just got the table back on my side and now
_you're_ the idiot. I know this because I've been in this exact situation
after I offended someone into leaving my company. Next thing said was "yeah,
he's been testy lately, maybe he needs some time alone". We completely forgot
about my poor remark that shoved him away in the first place. As much as you'd
like to believe you've "sent a message" to me and the other people at the
table, we've really said "what a dork" and moved on with our lives with
minimal interruption.

Weak people are going to do two things in that scenario: (a) not follow you
from the table when you "make your stand" by fleeing, because they're not sure
about it, and (b) instantly flop back to wondering what the hell is wrong with
_you_ after an ever-so-gentle shove from the original offender in your
absence.

Emotional manipulation is comically easy, and after you've worked with typical
Silicon Valley types for 10+ years, this is a pretty consistent roadmap.

> Best scenario is when you call the person out on their remarks and they
> apologize.

I don't understand what you're saying here. I'm positing that you should call
the person out on the remarks and demand apology. You say the same thing in
this sentence, then spend the rest of your comment explaining how I'm wrong.
Making him leave is the last step of my escalation path, which I laid out in
the linked comment, which it seems like you didn't read.

~~~
jdbernard
> Because you're rational. Someone who doubles down on a comment about
> someone's tits being her weather helm for success after being lightly called
> on it is not rational.

This kind of person is not the kind of friend I keep. And anyways, this is
more directed at the rest of the table who lacked the conviction to act.

> get the rest of the table back on my side.

Sounds like the whole table is full of people who are not actually my friends
and not who I am interested in spending my time with. I am glad to have left.

I read your linked comment. I do agree with you about the first course of
action. What do you do when you get step 8 and the person says, "Pff. No, I'm
staying." Are you going to forcibly eject them? What if the rest of the table
doesn't care enough? Get into a fight?

I disagree with your strong stance against leaving the situation. You
characterize it as weak and ineffectual. I call it choosing who you keep
company with. I myself am coming up on 15 years as a software developer. Maybe
it is a cultural disconnect as I am in Austin, not Silicon Valley, but outside
of college I have _never_ been party to an incident as offensive as that
described by the OP. I don't work for companies full of people like this, I
don't hire people like this, and I don't socialize with people like this. If
someone insists on remaining too immature to be respectful and tolerant of
other people I do not want to waste my time and energy on them.

> Emotional manipulation is comically easy

This confuses me. I do not know too many people who would be easily
manipulated in this way. Certainly not my coworkers. Maybe young kids in their
early twenties who have still not figured out who they are.

You shape your society by who you choose to keep company with and by the
expectations you place on that company. People in my life know that I will
treat them with respect and courtesy and will deal with them honestly. They
know I expect the same in return. If the rest of the table sides with the
aggressor, or is unwilling to side with me and demand the aggressor apologize
then at some point I determine that this is not the company I want to keep and
I leave. There are a lot of things I will tolerate, because nobody is perfect
--surely I'm not perfect--and people have differences. But a persistent lack
of basic respect and civility is something I won't tolerate.

Finally:

> "wonder what got under his skin, sorry about the scene, there, guys;" bam, I
> just got the table back on my side and now you're the idiot.

This is understandable because we are strangers, but saying this after I left
would not likely make me look like an idiot. I am not going to cause a big
scene when I leave. I am still going to be polite and leave calmly. It would
be hard to label me as testy. In an actual situation I would probably be a
little more verbose: "I'm sorry guys, that's not cool/that' not OK/this isn't
acceptable _(depends on setting)_. I'm going to head out. I'll see you later.
_(to the injured party)_ You want to finish dinner/have dessert/grab coffee at
<destination>? _(if they say no)_ OK, have a good night." Then leave calmly.

Ironically, you are causing a big scene when you force conversation to stop
until the guy apologizes. If the rest of the table agrees with you, great. I
am not saying a big scene is always a bad thing, but if the table doesn't side
with you then you look like the idiot. Maybe in their minds they are thinking,
"Here tiredofcareer goes again. He's always getting worked up about something.
Just give him what he wants so he'll calm down."

------
tjbiddle
Why is this even a topic anymore? I don't understand how this can even enter
into someone's mind as an acceptable remark to make. This is the 21st century
- if you don't treat women with respect and as equals then please, don't show
your face in public anymore until you learn normal human etiquette.

~~~
SkittlesNTwix
It wasn't enough for me to simply upvote the above comment. Please consider
this a double-upvote of emphatic agreement.

------
gexla
When I was in basic training for the Army, my drill instructor told us that
they can turn us into soldiers but there is nothing they can do to fix 18
years of bad parenting.

For me, there are certain traits and ways of thinking that I just can't
tolerate. In some cases, I can tolerate those beliefs if the person is able to
keep them locked up when I'm around. Usually this person is smart enough to
know a certain belief if controversial or similar and knows when to keep
quiet.

Some people know when to keep quiet, some people don't. Some people can swear
like a sailor when drinking with friends at a private location but have the
good sense not to do the same when out at a family location on a normal day.

People probably can't / won't change. Discussion and arguments won't do it.
Even if you could change a person, it's not worth the effort for you to try.
It's best to just cut the cord right there and move on with your life.

~~~
whalesalad
Not sure why this comment is being downvoted. It's entirely true. The reason
we've got people in the world who make comments like this is because they were
raised in an environment where it was normal, and they think it's normal.
We've got bad eggs in all walks of life. Society moves on and ultimately those
people will suffer for going against the grain. It's a shame that ladies are
so overwhelmed by this in our industry but you can't let the dweebs in society
get you down.

Most of the people in her group shared the same reaction: they were surprised
and defended her. I realize that ladies have it tough in our industry, but
it's not a 50:50 men vs women war.

When you're in a jam like that, there isn't much you can do. You don't engage
them. When someone says shit like that, you just ignore them. Or change the
subject. Or leave. As the author said herself ... she isn't a confrontational
person. Most women aren't. So, you just drop it and walk away. I do it all the
time. I have no patience for stupid people, regardless of their gender.

~~~
erikpukinskis
> When you're in a jam like that, there isn't much you can do.

Sure there is. You can switch majors. Or quietly put your resume out in a
different industry. Go somewhere your superiors and peers actually give a shit
about whether people are treating you horribly.

What do you think happened to all the women who _aren't_ programmers?

------
specialist
I once witnessed overt racism at an event. I didn't know either party. To this
day, I regret not intervening.

Perhaps I'm now over compensating, but I became "that guy" who always speaks
up. That time, I was so shocked, I didn't know how to respond. Replaying it in
my head over and over, now I don't need to hesitate when it happens again.

Note: you're not persuading the antagonist. Screw him. By speaking up, you're
putting him and everyone on else on notice that pathological behavior will not
be tolerated.

A year or two back, we had a guest female speaker at a local user group. I
felt that she wasn't being given the same level of respect afforded every
other speaker. People talked over her, interrupted her, etc.

So I said something. I pissed some people off. Others laughed at me.

But next time we had a female speaker, EVERYONE was super courteous. They even
joked that if anyone was rude, Specialist (me) would bring on the hurt.

My advice to Andy Moore, and everyone, is to learn from his experience, and
prepare for the next time, until such time that the trogs realize they can
keep their sexism, racist, hatred, etc to themselves.

------
noobface
You know what I'm tired of: condescension.

The guy who was making sexist statements is ignorant, not a "fucking loser."

How do you make these situations positive for everyone?

Empathy. Empathy for all sides.

Everyone exposed to this kind of social ignorance is a victim if you dig deep
enough.

In the tech world we are quick to call users idiots, each other inept, ideas
retarded...

I ask for empathy.

Empathy for this offensive guy who most likely grew up intimidated by social
situations. He was picked on and bullied, and never grew past it. If I
ventured a guess, I'd say he's still in pain, and still not sure how to act
due to years of relative social isolation. He is simply ignorant of the effect
of his actions. He literally knows no other ways to relate.

Calling him names makes us no different from him, or the people who encouraged
his social isolation. Do you think shaming him will convince him we're right?
He'll just view us as "another bully" and continue his anti-social behavior.

Encouraging growth through understanding, not through social imposition or
public shaming is how we resolve these situations positively.

~~~
bcoates
While I'm not going to argue against empathy in general, registering some
blunt disapproval is less of a bullying behavior than saying nothing and
passive-aggressively excluding someone, which seems to be the runner-up
suggestion in the thread.

Drawing moral equivalence between participating in hostility against women and
hostility against the rude and ignorant is a bit of a stretch, too.

~~~
noobface
Registering blunt disapproval may stop the behavior temporarily, but what
caused it in the first place? It can't be entirely due to a general passive
acceptance of such statements.

Our approach to ending racism was similar, and it was effectual, but over a
great period of time incorporating generations of ignorance.

However, there were individuals who managed to help end the passive acceptance
of racism by taking a vested interest in changing the thinking of one
individual, all without guilting them into compliance.

Exhibit A. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B24qxWPPVbM>

The NAACP president of Oklahoma, Wade Watts convinced the imperial wizard of a
national KKK organization to reconsider his perspective on race. Rev. Watts
did not accomplish this through expressing disgust or disapproval, but through
patience and empathy. Johnny Lee Carly was swayed from imperial wizard to
anti-racism activist. Wade saved Johnny's progeny from harboring the same
ignorance, accomplishing in a single generation what had previously taken acts
of congress, violence, protest and over a hundred years of blunt disapproval.

I'm not saying Wade's approach is the only way to accomplish a means to
societal change, but it can change the perspective of an individual.

------
noonespecial
This is why I never use the word "fuck" in common discorse. For these
situations exactly. So that when I hold up my hand and say "$name, fuck you"
it goes off like a bomb and I don't have to say anything else.

------
norswap
Not this again. The kind of people who make this kind of comment don't give a
shit about this kind of blogpost.

~~~
pmcg
No, but we who could stand up and confront those people do. And we can be
encouraged to do so by this kind of post.

------
EliRivers
And the usual stack of classic comments building on there already as well.
"Man the fuck up bitch".

Some guy talking about how he's totally on side but somehow is unable to keep
himself from commenting on her breasts; presumably he subscribes to the idea
that if you can pretend to be ironic, you can still say it. Classic stuff.

------
gdubs
Despite the feeling that "some people can't / won't change" I believe in
teachable moments[1]. I can't recall where I heard this, but someone once said
that racism and bigotry were diminished in this country when people shamed
friends and family members for making insensitive remarks.

1\. <http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachable_moment#section_3>

------
namuol
> Defenses and arguments tried to be brought up, but conversation quickly
> moved on with the men talking over the woman until she just sat there
> quietly and resigned.

Hmm. Why haven't I seen a single woman post an article about this issue? I'm
tired of all the me-tooism from men about this subject. Yes, sexism is
abhorrent fallacy, but inverse-sexism is still sorta sexism -- enough with the
White Knights, already.

Not to defend the guy who made some joke about tits, but I look forward to the
day when we _can_ be more than humorless automatons regarding this issue.
Relevant: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgqUQ17sYm0>

------
influx
I suggest next time this happens saying, "you're being rude", and change the
topic. I've gotten really good results with that statement, ymmv, but hth.

------
ronaldx
I would have calmly said just this: "That's not an acceptable thing to say".

No yelling or arguing or rational reasoning: People like that guy just need to
understand simply and clearly that it is not acceptable.

------
banachtarski
Can we tell the GDC committee? There were witnesses, and getting him expelled
from future GDC events seems like an appropriate reaction.

~~~
tiredofcareer
Speaking based on experience with what happened to Jesse Noller and the PSF
_just two weeks ago_ , you do _not_ want to escalate this to any level where
someone might lose a job or be asked to leave the conference. The same people
that cannot handle social situations with women without discussing their tits
resort to death threats and nonstop harassment when one of "their own" is
chastised publicly for such a thing. If I were Jesse, I'd be having second
thoughts about my volunteer work after that shitshow. It's just not worth it
to be kind to these people. Ever.

Someone else I know wrote a blog post about the Adria Richards thing. He then
moderated one comment which was extremely offensive. In retaliation, the
person that wrote the comment launched a denial of service against his blog.
This industry is full of emotional children that cannot handle being adults,
and most of them can never admit that they might be wrong. Had OP confronted
this jackass, it probably would have gone nowhere, and running to the
cops/conference people is just shoving your problems on someone else. There is
just no easy solution here without stepping up and being confrontational.

I'm assuming the game development people (different industry) and GDC might
have missed that brouhaha, even though it was all over the news, so I'm
sparing the benefit of the doubt that game development should have learned a
valuable lesson from the PSF's (and Python community's) misfortune.

~~~
banachtarski
The notice to the individual need not be overtly public-facing. It could just
be a dialog between the conference committee (who should care about the
quality of its attendees) and the person in question. I personally would also
prefer less public vitriol everywhere.

~~~
tiredofcareer
Okay, sure, but at that point why not just do it yourself? You're basically
saying "I can't handle this myself, can you talk to the guy for me?"

~~~
banachtarski
Who's the "you" in your sentence?

The original poster? I really don't understand the point of your comment. Bars
have bouncers for a reason.

------
GhotiFish
There is a website <http://notalwaysright.com/>

It's an aggregation of stories from people working in the service industry who
have horror stories to tell from the customers they serviced. If you read
through a few stories you might pick up on a anomaly that seems to pervade.
Particularly any story from the "Awesome Customers" category.

For some stories we see normal, self-righteous, mildly ignorant, comical
behavior, typical of human beings in general I would say. Other stories have
this strange, caricature, like quality about them. People come off like comic
book villains, cackling maniacally as they monologue about how demographic X
is inferior in way Y. They say statements which are way beyond the pale of
current society, and in these stories one brave individual stands against
their unwavering ignorance in a triumphant display, shaming the villain.

I think you'll pick up on it as well. These stories are fantasies. Spirited
teenagers imagining themselves slaying the ignorance and wrong-doings of their
bigoted elders, and reporting it as if it actually happened for the mass
approval of people on Facebook.

This story has such a quality about it.

93 points and counting.

~~~
bcoates
Except for the part where the OP says he didn't confront the guy but wishes he
did.

~~~
GhotiFish
That's the thing, if things had happened as the OP said, the reaction from any
of the human beings I know would of being proportionately extreme. Something
is just a bit surreal here.

~~~
bigiain
Really? You don't see around you the "bro-grammer" culture, and the promo
girls at tech trade shows? While, like you, I like to think I surround myself
with like-minded rational people - and I honestly think I manage to do that in
my social/friendship circles - it's _abundantly_ clear that there's many many
people in programming/tech profession that'd laugh along with the comment
related in the story.

I think your skepticism is misplaced.

------
tptacek
Where are these people working, that saying something like "award winning
tits" wouldn't be a firing offense?

~~~
whalesalad
In an at-will employment environment, sure, maybe. Anywhere else it's
definitely not enough to be let go for sexual harassment. One remark is
nothing.

But these are the kinds of people you don't want to hire.

------
tempestn
Server's overloaded. Cached version here:
[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pSYnpq...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pSYnpqjBPckJ:www.andymoore.ca/2013/04/im-
tired/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a)

------
rocky1138
Did the dude who made the comment say it in front of her? That's so awkward!
Who does that?

She didn't speak up, either?

~~~
bazzargh
She did speak up. See the comments (you can't at the moment because the
traffic's taken the site down). And the comments have a guy who is behaving
exactly like that.

To paraphrase - she tried to make the witty comeback but was talked over, and
part of the point is this isn't isolated, she gets rape threats every game
release; can you imagine how wearing that is?

She suggests that others also need to speak up - a quick "Not cool, dude" to
anyone who behaves like this.

~~~
zalew
> she gets rape threats every game release

seriously, the internet is a big rape threat. are there any smart people that
treat random anon trolling seriously? (except opportunists and journalists
that by occasion use such crap as a 'proof' of whatever)

~~~
bazzargh
Whether you treat it seriously (as in, call the police) depends on the level
of implied threat. But are you really just saying ignore it? Think about the
spam you get. It's a little annoying. Now think if all of that was threats
directed at you.

It's not just about whether you take them all seriously, it's whether this
constant drumbeat of abuse gets to you. Would you still love your dream job
after a year of that? Would you just want the relief of bowing out of any kind
of public life?

Women deserve better. Telling them to toughen up doesn't help, it's blaming
the victim. Try speaking out instead.

~~~
zalew
a few years ago, a member of our national female volleyball team resigned from
sport because somebody on the internet, anonymously, wrote she has fat legs
(at least that was her official statement). the question is not if a woman has
the right to get her feelings hurt, but whether empowering the trolls by
admitting publically you very much care what they write is an effective thing
to do in fighting this behavior.

btw rape threats that show a slight chance of being 'real' (say, not a
frustrated teenager or drunk idiot from the other side of the globe) should be
reported, even just for the sake of it. that said, knowing certain aspects of
the gaming community, I imagine there is a bigger chance of the latter.

> Women deserve better.

I agree.

> it's blaming the victim.

hold your horses, I never did that.

------
kunai
I couldn't read this.

When you are intellectually advanced to the point where sexist jokes simply
make you want to rip out the throat of the party saying them, you begin to
realize that disrespect for women is not only illogical but very perverse.
Telling someone they have "good tits" is not funny or even sexy to the party
that it is said to.

 _It's a fucking disgrace to humanity._ Not only is it objectifying, but it's
insulting, rude, and so incredibly improper.

I thought we had reached the point where our minds found others attractive
based upon intelligence, and not on physical appearance. I thought we had
reached the point where sexism had all but disappeared.

Of course, as I always am, I was wrong.

This is quite frankly getting ridiculous. I don't tell women anything about
their physical appearance, unless I've known them for a long time; which is
when an "You're a very beautiful person" _may_ be appropriate.

I know many others that go by the same maxim. It's a shame some men haven't
matured enough to behave.

------
verbalist
Wait, nobody's even bringing up the fact that maybe the game developer didn't
get the pass on merit alone? Yeah, the comment was rude (people are rude
everywhere, always), but maybe he had a point.

~~~
lowboy
That is utterly irrelevant to this conversation.

------
jedwhite
The cached version is a little hard on the eyes so here is text:

Last night was the end of an amazing GDC trip. A handful of remaining friends
and I made a journey out to JapanTown and we had an amazing meal. It was a
great way to end the trip.

One of my friends, and a fellow game developer, was there for dinner. Her trip
to GDC was planned last-minute, thanks to someone obtaining her a (very
expensive!) all-access pass.

When recounting this chain of events, a male game developer at the table said
that she only got the GDC pass “because of her tits.”

The table largely responded with aghast looks and silence. It was brought up
that perhaps her ticket was thanks to being an award-winning game developer.

The same male responded with the ever-classy “sure, award winning tits.”

Defenses and arguments tried to be brought up, but conversation quickly moved
on with the men talking over the woman until she just sat there quietly and
resigned.

I’m posting about this because this shit has to stop.

I’m posting about this because I was silent when I should have spoken up. I
shouldn’t have let the conversation sweep this transgression under the rug.

I’m posting this because I am tired of being made complicit (due to inaction)
when these things happen. I’m tired of having to yell at people for this shit
every night at GDC. I’m tired because I want this to end, and I’m tired of
having this conversation over and over again.

I’m tired of feeling like shit because I don’t have enough energy to defend my
friends every fucking DAY.

I’m terrified of losing friends over this.

I’m not a very confrontational person. Usually I deal with shit like this by
making a mental note to avoid the person in the future. And now that my
friends’ feelings are hurt and people are accusing me of inaction and being a
bad person because of it, I feel like my last few years of championing anti-
harassment policies (and ENFORCING them) doesn’t even matter.

It sucks that my entire personality can be judged on my last exchange.

So, hey: if you are a sexist ass around me, and think it’s just ironic meta-
humour, know that it’s hurting me. It hurts me for days, weeks, months
afterwards. It hurts my friends. It hurts my business. It makes me less
creative, it makes me want to just hide in my basement all day. It makes me
not want to go to GDC again.

If I don’t tell this to your face it’s probably because I’m tired of having
this exchange this week. It makes me feel angry, upset, and sad. I hope
someone links you to this.

And if you’re going to write me to apologize, you’d sure as shit better
apologize to the actual people you pissed on first.

I’m so tired.

~~~
jrajav
Here's an even more readable gist.io: <http://gist.io/5297363>

------
asher
How does a wise and tactful man react to a tactless remark in a large group?

He doesn't. He might try to direct the conversation to more agreeable matters.
He certainly doesn't draw attention to the offense and impress it indelibly in
the minds of the others.

Generally, you are better off improving your own behavior than that of others.
As Dale Carnegie pointed out, it's not only more profitable; it's less
dangerous.

------
no_wave
So I'm supposed to feel sorry for you because women are discriminated against?
Why are you making yourself the focus of this story?

There's a real story of discrimination here - against the woman who was
insulted.

"I’m terrified of losing friends over this." - so you're against
discrimination only to the extent that it doesn't negatively impact your life.
This is meaningless.

------
dannowatts
who the fuck thinks that this is an appropriate thing to say?! to someone you
don't know. in a group setting.

0_o

------
rdouble
I'm skeptical of the article's claim that an "amazing meal" was had in
Japantown.

------
tegansnyder
me too

------
recoiledsnake
My reaction to something nasty like this would've have been to stand up and
ask the person to leave and if they don't, just walk away. This is nowhere
close to being acceptable. Where does this person work where it's acceptable
for employees to say such things?

------
iguana
That's quite a bold statement to make to someone, basically equivalent to
saying, "you're nothing without your genitals". The proper response isn't "I
disagree" or even "fuck you", it's a punch to the face. Seriously, if someone
tells you, or your friend that they're worthless, you don't have to argue with
them, you can knock them the fuck out.

~~~
erikpukinskis
Legally, you can't.

~~~
iguana
Yay! My first downvotes! The law doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything.
It simply prescribes a liability. You can educate someone by saying, "your
comment is sexist", to which they will save face and complain about your lack
of sense of humor, etc. You can also educate them about the consequences of
insulting someone with mild violence, which is far more likely to stick with
them. Of course, you can't go around beating people up, and I didn't suggest
anything of the sort. Mild violence is a common response to insults. A bruised
ego goes a long way in social calibration, which this idiot was clearly
missing.

~~~
jlgreco
A punch to the face, in a public setting, to someone that you don't _really_
know is (in America at least) a great way to get arrested and sued. Nothing
about that escalated situation would be mild.

It is not the wild west anymore.

------
jason_slack
Wow.

That male at the table needs to have his balls removed for such a statement.

He may be male, but he isn't a man. A real man wouldn't behave like that.

Edit: OK, maybe having his balls removed is excessive. He is mocking a womens
anatomy and the reverse would make him feel good. i.e saying he got into GDC
because of his testicles isn't the same type of insult as the female getting
in for her "tits". So this isn't an argument that levels the playing field.

Perhaps he is just a socially awkward human being that doesn't respect women.
Someday he will cross the wrong path and insult the wrong women and then I
guess Karma kicks in?

Edit 2: Thanks everyone for pointing about that I was indeed going overboard
with the removal of anatomy phrase. Overboard from being outraged people still
act like this and in front of a table full of people.

~~~
citricsquid
Please stop, you're over compensating. Yes the person in this story is a dick
but being a dick does not mean someone should have their body mutilated, nor
does it somehow make them a faux-person. Saying someone isn't a "real man" is
just as ridiculous as what the person in the story said.

You're not scoring any magical man points with a comment like this.

~~~
jason_slack
it isn't my goal to score points though.

Maybe him being a dick in front of people at the table is enough to help
change him.

Thanks for your point.

