
The Awkward but Essential Art of Office Chitchat - SREinSF
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/17/style/the-awkward-art-of-office-small-talk.html
======
gexla
Smalltalk is improv. It's yes... and. You take turns with the hot potato. You
take your turn and then pass it. It's creating a story. Take whatever what was
passed to you, add something quirky and then pass it back. It's fun to add
something off the wall, a bit ridiculous.

Doing this takes courage. You WILL make mistakes. At times, you may cringe at
yourself. Putting yourself out there, taking small risks is the spice of life.
When you fail, embrace it and move on. Don't look back.

If you smile and keep a bright attitude, then that becomes infectious. If
showing up is 90%, then the right attitude is showing up. The quickest way to
screw this up is to be toxic.

Advanced mode is keeping that positive attitude (don't forget the smile) even
when you're feeling attacked. If you can't bear it, then keep a number of exit
strategies in your bag of tricks and pull one of them. You have to get going.
Someone is expecting you. You need to take a call, etc. If you choose to stay,
then you have to stay deft and keep the air light. Don't let someone pin you
down into a corner where you have to defend yourself. Continue keeping things
light and a bit ridiculous and the air will change. You might even gain some
respect.

~~~
flycaliguy
Probably my most upvoted repeat HN comments are my recommendations of the book
Impro by Keith Johnstone. It really is a brilliant breakdown of what Improv is
beyond theatre games. I think it’s especially useful for coders in the
workplace because it really nails the importance of understanding exchanges of
“status” in these situations. So much of humour is building and then
diminishing a person’s status in an artful way. Being aware of how you are
displaying your status around others and being able to consciously manipulate
that display for laughs goes a long way.

He has another book “for storytellers” that you can skip over for now. Get
Impro, it’s a bit of a cult classic.

I work in education and it’s such an incredible skill for teachers as well.
Controlling a class is easiest when you can establish your authority while
simultaneously letting your students question it in a playful way. You can
really break down a lot of walls and connect better.

~~~
Red29
Yes. I have been doing improvisation now every week for past 3-4 years. And
impro is definitely the best book I have read on the subject.

------
air7
Thinking about the reasons why people engage in smalltalk (in other areas of
life too such as family and friends, dating, service providers, etc) helps
(me) cope with its banality and even enjoy it; The irrationality is quite
rational.

A conversation, especially a face-to-face one, contains something beyond
content: Something like a meeting of souls. The (hopefully positive) feeling
of the presence of another human being. The breadth and importance of this
non-verbal communication is obvious.

Smalltalk then, is basically a request to engage only in this non-verbal
connection for a fleeting moment. The content is almost completely irrelevant.
It's just the excuse to be in a bubble together for a while. Seen this way
helps (me) in two ways:

0\. You don't need to be "good" at it. It really doesn't matter what you say.
Say anything and the ball keeps rolling for a few moments longer. 1\. You can
find compassion towards the person who initiates it instead of contempt: They
are actually asking to warm by your fire for a little bit. They are not
testing/dueling you.

Or in the more sentimental words of L. Armstrong: "I see friends shaking
hands, saying How Do You Do. They're really saying I Love You"

~~~
ljm
I think so. I love deep and meaningful connection and getting lost in that
conversation but if you leave out all of the small talk that naturally happens
in between, it’s easy to find yourself in a very lonely place. For a time I
used to dislike it because it seemed pointless.

Not everybody is comfortable with silence and, given a chance, you might find
that some small talk kicks off the deeper conversation you so desire. After
that I realised it wasn’t so much the deep meaning that I wanted so much, it
was being able to connect, listen and empathise. And to enjoy some of that
from someone else.

In the end, the small talk is quite valuable even if it seems utterly banal on
the surface. Sometimes I just laugh about it, use it as an icebreaker. Life
isn’t so serious all the time, after all.

------
not_a_moth
I think the essential office chitchat issue is "being yourself" vs. "seeming
like a high quality professional". I've found out the hard way that relaxing
and aiming for a real conversation carries a high % chance of saying something
unbecoming of a team leader. Better pay attention to appearances when you're
at work.

I don't understand coworkers who say silly things at the lunch table without a
second thought, or those who base their social lives around co-workers...
doing so seems to risk your upward mobility. It's a sad POV but from my
experience anyways I think it's reality.

~~~
gil
> I think the essential office chitchat issue is "being yourself" vs. "seeming
> like a high quality professional". I've found out the hard way that relaxing
> and aiming for a real conversation carries a high % chance of saying
> something unbecoming of a team leader.

Indeed, this is a very good way to put it. Although I _do_ understand people
who say silly things at the lunch table without a second thought - they value
fun and genuine social interactions more than "upward mobility".

If you can't be yourself for at least 8h/day and you also can't be yourself
after that, because you shouldn't base you social life around your co-workers,
then who are you? And when are you allowed to be yourself? Weekends and bank
holidays? Fuck. That.

We would all be happier if we were allowed to be ourselves all the time. Maybe
by hopping around until landing on a cluster of likewise co-workers who can
see the "high quality professional" side by side with the crazy cat lady or
the punkrocker.

But again, I think your decription is correct and that we live within a very
sad state of affairs.

~~~
donkeyd
Thanks for this. This has become a realization of mine in the past couple of
years. I already wear a neat shirt to work and do my hair neatly, because
that's expected. I'm not going to change my personality however, because I am
who I am and I don't want to pretend to be something I'm not.

I've even decided that I will no longer 'perform' interviews. I could get most
jobs, because I'm pretty good at doing interviews. However, I've come to the
conclusion that I should just be me and if they don't like it, there isn't a
fit. Recently got my first rejection because of this and I didn't mind as much
as I thought I would. Of course, exceptions will be made when I really need a
job. But as long as the market is on my side, I'll just keep being myself.

~~~
redleader9345
I've been doing the same. I even tell recruiters and interviewers "if I was
unemployed, you'd be getting a very different version of me". It adds more
fuel to the notion of why employed people are so much better to recruit,
because you get more signal and less noise.

We've all known for a while that being unemployed, and having that desperation
stink on you, is a bad situation. But I'd never really considered it from the
hiring side, that when you are interviewing someone who desperately needs a
job, you're interviewing more of an actor.

~~~
LandR
Interviews are entirely perfomative anyway.

THe person conducting the interview is asking you questions he knows the
answer to, and knows that you know what he wants to hear, and is just checking
that you know how to play the game and repeat back to him what he wants.

If you answered all the stupid interview questions completely honestly you
would never get a job. Both parties know this, yet everyone keeps ploughing on
with this moronic game.

------
pgt
Relationships develop through the escalating exchange of mutual vulnerability.
A few people commented that I seemed to make friends very easily, so I started
paying attention to my interactions with strangers. I noticed that I enjoyed
sharing vulnerable anecdotes with people before inquiring about their own,
e.g. dates gone wrong from the night before. Sure, sometimes I put my foot in
my mouth, but people seem to like that and trust me more for it. When I
started researching how friendships are forged, this was on the button.

~~~
Normal_gaussian
There is an art to presenting vulnerability; to not diminish yourself whilst
doing so. It not only improves your own outlook on yourself but helps prevent
others using it against you, all whilst still being open and truthful.

Its hard.

~~~
Loq
Could you give an example?

The most popular trust-creation mechanism for adults seems to be getting drunk
together, which reliably leads to little infractions, which every witness has
the _choice_ to exploit or not. The latter option engenders trust.

 _" I don't trust someone that I didn't get drunk with"_ is a sentiment I've
heard repeatedly, both privately and professionally. The most successful
startup that I worked for even asked _" What's your favourite beer?"_ when
they interviewed me for a programmer position, and when I asked by this was of
interest, they said they took their after work drinking sessions pretty
seriously, and "don't want to work with people they can't have fun with". As
somebody who doesn't enjoy being drunk, this was difficult for me to adapt to.

~~~
tracker1
My answer to that question: "Whiskey"

As to the drinking after work... I think it's appropriate to set boundaries. I
only drink a handful of times a year but will participate in some activities
including outside work hours, I also don't have more than a single drink if
I'm going to drive within a couple hours. Also, get two non-alcoholic drinks
or glasses of water per alcoholic beverage, could pretty much stay close to
sober all evening when I was in my 20s by doing that.

In the end, it's about striking a balance of being sociable without being
irresponsible at the same time.

~~~
Loq
I agree with you, in that pretending to drink (e.g Tonic instead of Gin &
Tonic) is probably what a lot of us do, and the obvious way out. But the point
of drinking is not really being sociable, but making yourself vulnerable.
Vulnerability and exploitability is the foundation of trust. By staying sober
one undermines one of the core trust formation mechanism: by remaining sober
and responsible, you _avoid_ creating exploitable vulnerabilities that others
can but don't exploit -- I trust X because X can exploit my being vulnerable
w.r.t. Y me, but doesn't.

Note also that pretending to drink feels a bit like cheating to me: I'm
actively deceiving others. I wish I could live my life without deceit.

~~~
tracker1
I'm not pretending to drink... I actually have a few, but have a few not
alcohol too, I make no attempts to hide it when ordering. I'm generally pretty
blunt without much filtering in general, I don't need alcohol for that.

------
feintruled
It can be quite a minefield. I worked with a guy whose chit-chat policy was
disconcerting - stating the bleedin' obvious. "You are in early today!" "You
are in late today!" "You are on time today!" "Wearing the red shirt again, I
see!" "Got your hair cut!"

While this 'say what you see' served as a functional ice-breaker, as an
introvert I found it strangely confrontational, almost like an interrogation.
I felt like I was having to justify myself, as there was no obvious opening
for a meaningful reply otherwise (simply saying 'yes' hardly cuts it). Of
course, that was all on me, he had no idea I was reacting in such a way.

~~~
coldtea
> _While this 'say what you see' served as a functional ice-breaker, as an
> introvert I found it strangely confrontational, almost like an
> interrogation_

On the other hand, why see "introvert" or "extrovert" as something that you
essentially are, and not an accidental attribute, one can, and perhaps should,
work on?

In that case, his 'say what you see' routine would be a good testing ground to
stop caring as much for the supposed "confrontation"...

~~~
fibbery
Are extroverts supposed to work on it too?

~~~
coldtea
Sure. Excess in most directions is not very good for others and for one's
self...

------
Jaruzel
I am rubbish at small talk. For one I'm not really that interested in other
people, and secondly I find it really boring. As such, all jobs I've had as a
permanent employee, I've found myself completely stymied when it came to
career progression, despite always having very good performance reviews. It
very clear to me, that the people who float to the top of organisations, don't
do it via their work performance, but by slapping each other on the back
whilst sharing a pint or two down the pub.

~~~
nvarsj
I used to think much like you do. But as I’ve moved into leadership positions
I’ve changed my view entirely. That sharing a pint or two is important. To be
able to coordinate a group of people to reach a goal, soft skills are
absolutely vital. Humans aren’t machines - hacking humans is a different
skill, and being good at it is rarer than good engineers imo. That’s why it
pays well, and why you’ll never progress far beyond IC without it.

~~~
partisan
IC?

~~~
disposedtrolley
Individual Contributor I believe, ie someone who doesn’t have direct reports

------
distant_hat
The vast majority of office chitchat is like a carrier wave in radio. It
doesn't transmit much information other than I am a normal human who you can
turn to when it is needed. There is a fair amount of politics etc that is
conveyed more through body language and dominance dynamics rather than the
actual words exchanged.

~~~
twoquestions
Except _they don 't_ care about you. Someone could burst through the door and
skin you alive, but your coworkers won't be in the least bit perturbed unless:

1) Your mutilation was against company policy 2) Some bits of you got on their
shirt.

Personally, I'd much rather deal with people knives drawn rather than work
hard pretending to care if each other lives or dies.

~~~
war1025
Sounds like a wild place to work at.

Also sounds like a great way to end up isolated and alone. Even at work, you
sometimes need people in your corner.

~~~
twoquestions
Except the incentives are aligned to be a Hobbesian war of all against all.
There is no incentive to collaborate or team up at all.

Ever wonder why shows like Survivor and Battle Royale games are so popular?
That's how office life is these days. _Nobody_ is ever "in your corner" as you
put it. Everyone is always and forever trying to gut everyone else in a
neverending zero sum game.

Unless you work in a new/high growth field or something, then collaboration
can have benefits, but in most static corporate environments, the only gain
you have is from someone else's detriment.

~~~
RugnirViking
I'm fascinated to see if you just work in bizzare confrontational companies or
are just paranoid. Pretty much everywhere I've been I've gotten on well with
my coworkers, chatted about videogames, beer, gone to various resturants for
lunch, and generally enjoyed myself. To do anything else would seem almost
unbearable - and this comes from a 100% introvert.

There are subtle signals that people have to both recognise and/or know how to
use in order to use smalltalk succesfully - things like never interrupt
someone wearing headphones on both ears, or recognising body language of
someone absorbed by thought.

Even if you genuinely don't ever like talking to people, they are bound to get
the message soon enough and stop trying. And if for some reason they have the
spectacularly bad social skills to not pick that up, usually telling them once
or twice (kindly!) that you don't like to chat at work should get them to
stop.

~~~
twoquestions
I may be paranoid, but I can't grok as much social information as my coworkers
can. I've had to memorize what different emotional states look like, and I
come from a working-class background where emotional dishonesty is _not_ a
valued thing, going to an office environment where it is.

Apologies for the Star Trek reference, but it feels like being a particularly
dense Betazoid working in an office of Vulcans.

------
scyclow
I got hit by a car while on my bike earlier in the summer. If nothing else,
that solved 100% of my co-worker small talk for the next three months.

~~~
thomk
Hahahahahah! Sorry bro but holy shit that is a great way to look at it. I hope
you are ok, but that was funny.

------
mwcampbell
I hope that all-remote work environments will rise in popularity and level the
playing field. Not only for introverts, but also for people with disabilities
that make it difficult to participate in casual conversation. I dream of an
environment where a deaf person, a person with a severe speech impediment, an
autistic person, people with other disabilities that don't prevent one from
making small talk (e.g. blindness), and yes, some people with no severe
disability can all work together, without necessarily even being aware of each
other's conditions, because they're all working remotely and using text to
communicate and get their work done.

Disclaimer: I work in accessibility, and am legally blind myself, so maybe I
fixate too much on disability-related issues sometimes. I _can_ make small
talk at the office though.

------
RickJWagner
My wife is amazing. She can walk into a Wal-Mart, and within minutes some
stranger will be telling her their life story.

I, on the other hand, suffer from Programmer's Disease. I can walk into a
crowded room, approach someone and try to strike up a conversation and have
the discussion killed in 3 minutes.

I try to improve. I really do. I think it's a gift we're born with.

~~~
borumpilot
For me and my wife that works basically the same, but I have found method to
the madness.

1\. She loves it when I come to save her when the tone of the spontaneous
discussion is not to her liking and nothing kills said discussions faster then
me participating.

2\. When I strike it, my conversations tends to be very subject focused and
will leave me and the other person smarter and more informed.

So what I do now is either I stand beside her and try to enjoy the (for me)
meaningless chatter (I really like the high pitched voices of socially engaged
people), or I will try to find that one other weirdo in the room who holds a
ton of knowledge in an area that I'm completely blank about and suck as much
as possible information out of them.

That is where my 35 years of continence improvement have led me. YMMV.

~~~
Porthos9K
I know you probably meant "continuous" instead of "continence", but I can't
help but chuckle at the usage.

~~~
borumpilot
:) You are right, thanks for pointing that out.

After looking up continence it fits like a glove :)

------
exabrial
> Every day around the world, an estimated three billion people go to work and
> 2.9 billion of them avoid making small talk with their co-workers once they
> get there.

Wait, how are 2.9b people avoiding chitchat? I almost more interested in this.

~~~
hansbo
I read the first part of the sentence as an estimation, and the second part as
a joke.

~~~
exabrial
:) the entire article's subtle humor is refreshing. I had a literal laugh-out-
loud about the sharing streaming services login joke; ironic b/c such services
are usually consumed en solo, which runs contrary to the thesis of the whole
article in general

------
josh_fyi
I quiz people on how their part of the company is going. "So, are we making
our quarter"? "What does the world think about our company?" "Did we really
get the CD system working like it's supposed to?"

People love talking about their areas, and I get some intel on the company I
work for.

------
n7_goat
I used to mostly keep to myself but think I balanced being social enough to be
a well adjusted office worker. This completely changed as I rose into
management positions, and now I feel compelled to chit chat with everyone,
which is really exhausting for me.

I think the article overstates how important chit chat is, but the overall
point is probably correct: don’t be a psycho and never talk to anyone.

------
hrktb
> Jamie Terran, a licensed career coach in New York City, said that small talk
> between colleagues and supervisors builds rapport, which in turn builds
> trust.

IMOA trust is built by delivering, being consistent and helping out.

You can chitchat all day, it won’t help if there’s nothing behind. Some people
may be terse on the interaction side but do their job, come to help when they
see you need it, and generally be aware of what other people are working on
without chitchatting.

In this day and age if chichat is the main communication bus of your
group/company, either it consciously chose to do so, and you have been hired
in this perspective -> no issue whatsoever. Either it’s doing something
fundamentally wrong and you should go somewhere else.

Also what is a “licensed career coach” ? Why don’t they ask 5 or 10 people
with actual successful careers and give clearer context advice. It feels so
bullshitty to have someone with that title for everyday job interactions.

~~~
ketzo
I get what you’re saying, and I don’t think you’re entirely wrong — you build
trust by doing your job well, repeatedly. But it’s also a demonstrated fact
(and almost a tautology) that people trust people that they like, and chit-
chat is a great way to move from “stranger” to “friendly acquaintance.” If you
eat lunch with someone once a week, they’ll think you’re better at your job.
That’s not an anecdote, that’s a repeatedly confirmed facet of human social
psychology.

~~~
hrktb
You are completely right, for all our history of working in the same
buildings, in person.

This changes though when you move to different floors. At some point you might
be working more with someone that is on the other side of the street that the
person next to you. Will you trust them less because you don't see them
everyday ? Will you be worse at your job because of the lack of chit-chatting
?

Perhaps, but it's something that you'll need to work on, otherwise your job is
just doomed. So people adapt, catch up once in a while but everyday chit chat
just becomes less essential.

Then you work with people on other buildings. You have a remote contractor.
You have an office in another country.

20 years ago those were extreme scenarii. Now I think people are expected to
be productive and efficient in these conditions.

~~~
close04
The cherry on top doesn't make a difference between 2 otherwise identical
pieces of crap (or shouldn't, at least...). But it will make a difference
between 2 otherwise identical cakes.

Chit chat is also a form of self promotion or publicity. People are more
likely to notice _you_ delivered instead of "it was delivered" if they know
_you_. Don't rely exclusively on your immediate manager to promote you to
everyone else. They may not have the time for that and it's unlikely they'll
say "John/Jane delivered" if nobody around knows who those people are.

~~~
hrktb
> it will make a difference between 2 otherwise identical cakes.

If we go into "all else equal" territory, you could get a promotion and not
neighbour because you created your dog an instagram account that your boss
likes.

Or you could have built a Minecraft world that was pretty cool when your
coworkers checked it from one of your sns profiles.

Or you could be the only one not annoying your boss all day long, and they
show their appreciation on bonus day.

Or your release announcement mails have funny gifs.

Or your have a name that's easily remembered.

Or really anything. I think the goal to build trust and reputation is for
things to not be equal and not have to play weird games of popularity.

Don't get me wrong, communication is key, but chit chat is a single very
specific form of communication, among so many others.

I think in any decent organisation you get better ROI from having good written
communication than top of the game chitchat, if you had to focus your
attention somewhere. If chitchat is an important part of your professional
life, I hope it's by choice and you're not just stuck in a company you hate.

~~~
close04
None of the reasons you wrote are nearly as reasonable as your boss(es) seeing
you as a reasonable person, a team player, etc. as evidenced by your open
discussions. Some things they can't glean just from the fact that you solved a
ticket quickly.

Yours looks more like a list of ridiculous, implausible but of course still
technically possible reasons. As a boss I'd like to know if the person I'm
promoting is willing to come up with such arguments in an attempt to prove a
point. ;)

------
oh-4-fucks-sake
I think there's some salient points here, but I don't think fully takes into
account the classic schism of maker vs. manager schedule. The makers might be
fine all plugging along with minimal office interaction--especially if they're
working remote.

~~~
grumpydba
In some big corps, in order to be a maker you have to know people in different
departments to speed up things and take some shortcuts. You can also slowly
have your technical solutions adopted.

It takes coffee breaks and some jokes to reach that. And I think it really
boosts your productivity.

------
acheron
Counterpoint:

Don't Talk to Anyone, Ever

[https://freebeacon.com/blog/dont-talk-anyone-
ever/](https://freebeacon.com/blog/dont-talk-anyone-ever/)

 _Don 't talk to strangers at work. I don't care if you're coworkers: Unless
you have to do a task with this person, they aren't interested in being
anywhere near you, nor should you be in them.

Don't talk to anyone. Ever. Talking is awful. People are worse. It's hard to
imagine a more horrifying combination than talking to people._

~~~
Porthos9K
I was hoping for an honest exploration of full-on misanthropy, and all I got
was a crappy satire blog. I'm disappointed.

------
fortran77
Careful! The Smalltalk people are going to jump in here and start talking
about how message passing between lightweight processes is the best way to
write efficient programs.

------
cryptozeus
Am I the only one who thinks this article is total nonsense. Really? You
“need” to do small talk in order to get promotion and be liked around the
office. How about we leave this to the individual’s personality. If you are in
the right culture fit then you don”need” to do anything. You will love to
chichat with your colleagues and if not that is okay to. Some people just love
to work on their craft and small talk is just a distraction.

~~~
Pmop
No, you aren't. I also see it as distraction, which is even worse to
programmers who have to keep laser focused on their work.

------
roland35
I should show this to the head of engineering at my last company! I got a
verbal warning for talking too much to coworkers when I first started. People
were just introducing themselves! That is the disadvantage of having a desk
right next to the big boss's office. After that warning I tried hard to avoid
any conversations.

------
bigbluedots
Is there a way to see this site while remaining in private mode? There are 13
trackers blocked ffs

~~~
SaturateDK
I use [https://www.eff.org/privacybadger](https://www.eff.org/privacybadger)
for all websites, seems to do the trick for me.

------
graphicsRat
Sadly this is true in my current and previous jobs.

I worked and have worked with people who know very little or do very little
yet but have mastered the art of hobnobbing and have fared a lot better than
yours truly who'd rather put his head down and get the work done.

------
matwood
My goto topics for office chitchat are TV shows, video games, and sports in
that order. Most people have at least some show they watch and will talk
about, and others typically have a video game of some sort they play. Sports
used to be first, but I've run into many people who have zero interest or
knowledge in any sport personal or otherwise.

Topics I love to talk about but avoid, diet and exercise. Topics I avoid
completely, politics.

~~~
nikk1
Restaurants, bars, and events around town are a good topic as well. Travel is
a good one too since many coworkers are either planning a vacation or were on
one recently.

------
twoquestions
Small talk is an extremely high-risk low reward activity depending on your
status with the company, especially if your manager has told you your status
is utterly fixed.

How in the hell are you supposed to build a rapport with people who would as
soon skin you alive as look at you, and only tolerate you for what you can do
that no one else can?

~~~
asdfman123
That's a sign of a toxic workplace. Far better to just move on and find a
place that respects human beings.

------
commandlinefan
> “I’m good. I just started a book/podcast/TV show

Hm - my wife (who’s an expert on this sort of thing) says that’s actually rude
and you should always answer back, “good and you” so that _the other person_
can start taking about their TV show/podcast whatever.

------
5trokerac3
As someone who worked a lot of low-end and blue collar jobs before getting
into software, small talk with coworkers is a whole lot easier in the former
environment.

There is so much petty politics and ego in the modern office that all it takes
is saying one thing that someone doesn't like to cause potentially years of
unnecessary drama.

One gossipy sociopath who's trusted by your manager, that doesn't like
something you said during small talk, or who didn't like the look in your eyes
when they mentioned a strong political view, can limit your ability to get
promoted.

People just talk anything and everything in blue collar jobs and nobody cares.
I think that's because nobody has their ego wrapped up in how well they mop a
floor or flip a burger.

------
projectileboy
Highly recommend reading The Gervais Principle by Venkatesh Rao for a more in-
depth discussion of office talk, and much more.

------
pts_
For whoever it doesn't work, it wastes a whole of their time, and their life.
Not to mention it completely wastes the chance to use their talents to take
the society forward.

