
Make More Than GPA - jlhamilton
http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/make-more-than-gpa.html
======
codexon
GPA is also a measure of compliance and subordination.

For many businesses this is a more valuable measure than pure smartness. Many
employers say they would rather have a dumber but more cooperative worker: a
"team player" so to speak.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
_GPA is also a measure of compliance and subordination._

Bullshit. No one forces you to go to college. Presumably, if you're there,
it's because you want to be. Working hard and getting good grades might just
mean that you want to get as much out of the experience as possible.

It might also reflect an understanding that getting a good GPA expands your
options. For example, good grades may improve eligibility for more financial
aid options, it may open up better grad schools, etc.

Painting GPA as a measure of how much people are willing to subjugate
themselves to the big bad evil system might make for a good punk song, but it
hardly reflects the reality of modern society.

~~~
bugs
You would be surprised at how many people aren't going to college because they
want to.

GPA is a measure of how well you can follow the rules, though in some cases
(more difficult degrees such as those in engineering) it also is a measurement
of how hard you work.

In modern society you are expected to go to college in the majority of cases,
it is now the norm.

------
hugh_
To summarise most of the comments in this thread:

"My GPA was [low/medium/high], therefore I think that most smart, well-
adjusted people get [low/medium/high] GPAs."

edit: However, in the interests of contributing more than snark, I shall say
the following: I think the US GPA system is screwed up, due to insufficient
resolution and grade inflation.

Where I went to uni, you got a mark for each course out of one hundred. Any
mark above 85 was considered very good, and only the top few percent of
students in each class would get above 90. (A 100 was unheard of, or more
accurately, I only heard of one once).

Anyway, this meant that a lousy mark in one class could be cancelled out by a
great effort in another class -- since even the top students only averaged in
the very low 90s there was always room to recover. In the US, though, at most
places an "A" is too damn easy to get, meaning most of the top students will
be running 4.0s, and staying at the top simply requires you to not screw up
and get (gasp) a B.

------
ryansloan
I think before you can convince students of this, you need to convince
prospective employers. To a lot of them, GPA is an easy filter.

~~~
jchonphoenix
You would be highly incorrect. Most employers have a border of a 3.5 GPA or
higher as a cutoff. Beyond that, they really care little. If you have a 4.0,
you might get some extra "points" in their eyes.

And for those of you who don't believe that 3.5 is a fair cutoff, I would
challenge you by saying this: I attend one of the most difficult universities
in the United States, and I do not know of a single person at the university
who could not achieve a 3.5 if he or she only bothered to focus. Alas, our
average GPA is closer to a 2.5.

Yes, GPA is an easy filter, but for good reason. Companies want the very best.
And the very best can easily achieve a 3.5 without trying and still have time
to do everything this article suggests.

~~~
harpastum
I'm sorry, but your comment really pisses me off.

"I do not know of a single person at the university who could not achieve a
3.5 if he or she only bothered to focus."

This is total bullshit. First, there are many people that barely made it into
college (most of whom aren't in computer science/engineering), and no matter
how much they worked, could not get a 3.5. Second, by saying "if he/she only
bothered to focus," you're claiming that everyone who doesn't get a 3.5 is
careless, lazy, or both.

Everyone on this forum could achieve a karma rating of 3,000. And for those of
you who don't believe that 3,000 is a fair cutoff, I would challenge you by
saying this: I have been on HN for over a year, and I do not know of a single
person on HN who could not achieve 3,000 if he or she only bothered to focus.

The reason I don't have a 3.5GPA is the same reason I don't have 3,000 karma:
I enjoy both school and HN, but there is a _diminishing rate of return_ for
effort. If I do the minimum amount of effort in school to get a 2.75, then
work for 40 hours a week at my company, and still hang out with my friends, I
really have no regret that I never "bothered" to get a 3.5.

Grade point averages are a result of intelligence, commitment, and _personal
priorities._ Simplifying them the way that you do is both crass and incorrect.

~~~
DarkShikari
It depends on the school as well. The "3.5 cutoff" is the result of massive
grade inflation in recent years. By comparison, my school, Harvey Mudd, has it
such that 3.0 is the cutoff for the _Dean's list_. This seems absurdly low by
comparison to most schools, yet doesn't it seem ridiculous for everyone even
mildly competent to graduate with a B+ or above?

The current system encourages schools to raise grades solely to get more
people to pass the 3.5 cutoffs, allowing them to say that more graduates got
good jobs, creating a grade inflation feedback loop.

------
ryanwaggoner
_GPA fanatics usually have few interesting thoughts of their own._

Seems like an overly broad generalization.

~~~
daniel-cussen
Hence "usually."

~~~
scott_s
The qualifier "usually" does not prevent a statement from being overly-broad.

~~~
Yrlec
You mean that it usually does not prevent a statement from being overly-broad.
:)

------
aohtsab
Six weeks passed this prior semester before I realized I was going to fail all
of my classes. Was I focused? Absolutely not.

This past semester I switched into Engineering from a Liberal Arts degree, and
I'd never felt so worthless, incompetent and overwhelmed. Everyone had it
together, everyone knew absolutely everything—and me, half a year of teaching
myself programming in my spare time was showing no results. Except for
developing carpal tunnel syndrome.

My roommate was another source of tension. Every day (and I really mean every
day), he would talk about how Harvard Law demanded a 4.0, who wore real suits
and who wore knock-offs, how School A was so much better than School B, the
difference in salary between top-tier and bottom-tier grads, and, to top it
off, how much he valued "good ol' American values, like from the 50s".

He flew through his tests and quizzes with straight-As, and I struggled to
scrape up a passing grade.

To make matters worse, I started learning shell scripting, further distracting
me from homework and classes. Also, I was getting treated for depression.

Anyway, I couldn't find a way to be motivated for anything other than my side
projects. I tried turning my homework into a programming puzzle, but it was
too late—my grades were too low to salvage.

Taking time off was something that had always been on my mind, but hearing it
recommended was the final push I needed.

So I withdrew.

And, surprisingly, the world didn't end—it opened up. I didn't know what to do
with all this free time, so I increased my volunteering time at a local school
and started job-applying like crazy.

I was interviewed for an IT position and another to cashier, and I got
neither. Still don't have a job, still wondering how I'm going to feed my cat,
yet not worried.

Don't get me wrong—I'm stressed like hell, but I'm enjoying it. I can
literally spend hours coding without feeling guilty.

Finishing college is important to me, however, and I'm set to return in the
fall.

Hopefully my work ethic will keep maturing—I'm excited to start again.

GPA definitely isn't on my mind.

------
sili
Grunting for GPA is a well-defined path. You take your classes seriously,
study, do you assignments, and pass your tests; that's all there is to it.
Whereas independent projects means venturing into the unknown, having to
define your goals, and judging your success yourself. The later is a more
daunting task.

------
djcapelis
I'm thrilled my graduate program doesn't require that I take any courses for a
letter grade. Grades don't matter, research does, it's nice to finally have
that reflected on my transcript.

------
alain94040
If you replace "independent study" by "relevant experience", my advice in
[http://blog.fairsoftware.net/2009/05/13/being-a-new-cs-
grad-...](http://blog.fairsoftware.net/2009/05/13/being-a-new-cs-grad-in-this-
economy-sucks/) is completely identical.

To paraphrase: optimize for GPA first so you are in the acceptable range
(>3.5), but then, focus on optimizing the second most important criteria:
project experience.

I was a hiring manager once.

------
jswinghammer
The first part of this article just seems like a good argument to home school
your kids. I'd imagine a home schooled kid with a nice SAT score would
probably do quite well dealing with college and then just fine after college.
I've never been asked for my GPA and probably wouldn't continue talking to a
company that asked for it.

That being said part of the point of starting your company is to not worry
about stuff like that.

------
Ixiaus
A good argument for _self directed_ learning. I was home schooled a number of
times and you're just replacing a class room with your living room and a
teacher with your parents; the material is all just as rote and redundant as
the school material.

The difference can be likened to working in an office and telecommuting from
home. Both are work, just different environments. There are obvious benefits
of telecommuting over cubicle working and those benefits can generally be
applied to the homeschooling situation. More time with kids, kids get to learn
from the one on one focus of a nurturing parent, they get to play in their own
backyard, etc.

I like his arguments, they are sound. Project based learning generally
provides more hands on knowledge with a focus on being inspired to do what you
are doing rather than being motivated (big difference between those two
terms).

I'm a self directed learner, an autodidact (technical term). I've been
pursuing college level Rhetoric, Formal Logic, Mathematics, and computer
science. Industry experience has served me well too; but I do fall behind from
my University bound peers in theoretical foundations - unless I spend an
enormous amount of time delving into all the topics that are given at Uni.
Discipline is also another toughie with this chosen path, it's taken me about
three years to get down a solid routine that I know I can follow. Waking up
early is a key to it.

I generally spend three days a week on personal projects that range from my
ideas for web applications, my personal site, writing projects, electronics
hobbies, &c.; with two days a week dedicated to book study. Every day for
about an hour I do a Mnemosyne session (spaced repetition program) providing
timed cards for vocabulary, math, postulates, etc.

Sadly, I'm going to need a part time job or part time contract work soon so I
can have some expendable income. I'm living off of passive income ATM but I
pinch pennies left and right! No money to go out snowboarding, sailing,
partying, etc.

------
btilly
Reading this reminded me of _The Homework Myth_ (see
<http://www.alfiekohn.org/books/hm.htm> for more on that).

I'm not looking forward to arguing with my kids about doing homework.
Particularly when I know how useless it is.

~~~
scott_s
I haven't read the book, so I don't know what the claims are, but it sounds
silly on the face of it. I'll grant that some homework is busy work. But some
homework is necessary.

You don't learn math by listening to a teacher explain it. You learn math by
working through problems. That requires homework. You don't learn how to write
by listening to a teacher talk about good writing. You learn how to write by
writing essays out of class. You don't improve reading skills by listening to
a teacher talk about a book. You learn by reading.

Maybe the claim is only concerned with younger children?

~~~
btilly
_You don't learn math by listening to a teacher explain it. You learn math by
working through problems. That requires homework._

You were fine until the last sentence. Teachers can and do assign practice to
be done within the classroom. And practice time in the classroom has many
advantages over homework. The primary one being that students are much more
likely to practice problems correctly, and get help if they are going in the
wrong direction. If the same student is assigned homework, the odds of correct
practice strongly depend on the quality of adult assistance at home.

The important questions then become whether there is enough time spent in the
classform for effective practice, and what the incremental benefit is or isn't
from homework.

What does the research say? It says that once you control for parent's
education and socioeconomic status, there is little correlation between time
spent doing homework and academic performance. (Whether measured by future
grades or standardized tests.) _However_ within the population assigned large
amounts of homework, the correlation between academic success and parent's
education and socioeconomic status increases.

This is evidence that 35 hours per week spent in a classroom is enough time
for teaching and practice. It is also evidence that homework on the whole
doesn't help or hurt much, but does move responsibility for educational
performance from the teacher to the parent. As a well-educated parent this is
modestly beneficial, because moving more responsibility for my children's
education to me gives my kids an edge. But at what cost?

The same research, unsurprisingly, finds very strong correlations between
homework assigned and how much kids dislike school. High homework levels also
result in significant increases in family conflict. The causes of both trends
are so blindingly obvious as to not need discussion.

There is less research on homework versus academic performance in highschool.
But the absence of evidence of effectiveness of the treatment does not imply
that the treatment level should be increased.

I don't know of any research on this in a university setting. But there I
support the use of homework for two reasons. The first is that there is much
less classroom time. In school you spend over 35 hours/week in the classroom.
At university a full load might be 15 hours a week. So practice needs to
happen out of the classroom. The second reason is that university is supposed
to teach skills around independent study. And the only way to practice _that_
is to study stuff on your own.

~~~
scott_s
I never did work in class. The environment was not conducive to being able to
focus. It wasn't until I was away from school, at home, where I could actually
think and work through problems.

------
Paton
I know a lot of people in my high school who are in the top 5% of our class,
but have no ability to think creatively.

GPA is just a measure of how much time you spend studying, factored in with
your natural intelligence.

The people with the most intellectual potential are those who maintain a
decent GPA but spend little time studying, but instead do things that are
productive (as the article explained).

A valedictorian who does nothing but studies doesn't have a greatly increased
chance of succeeding in life.

~~~
jchonphoenix
I would completely agree with you on the high school level, but the purpose of
high school is just to give you very broad, brute knowledge.

College is a lot more applied, and brute studying and memorization will get
you nowhere.

~~~
RK
_College is a lot more applied, and brute studying and memorization will get
you nowhere._

You need to hang out with more pre-meds.

I agree with your sentiment, but disagree with your conclusion, unfortunately.
Pre-meds and especially med students are just studying machines, who seem to
have an average intellectual curiosity that lies at least one standard
deviation below average grad students. It's likely that these are the result
of self-selection and/or adaptation to the way the system is setup.

------
tkahn6
I think most people tend to forget that the primary purpose of school is to
learn - not to get good grades.

Objectively, learning C or reading Knuth is a better use of my time than doing
some teacher's bullshit busy-work-so-their-class-seems-more-important homework
assignment. If I truly and absolutely was looking out for my own education, I
would take the zero and study on my own.

Unfortunately colleges seem to put stock in a student's GPA and I have to
waste my time on useless bullshit.

