
Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State - mindgam3
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/02/opinion/surveillance-state-schools.html
======
thatfrenchguy
Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral
development of those children ? Adults definitely behave differently when they
know they are monitored (I personally know I do), so I wonder what kind of
mental health issues would hide in those children if they are monitored at all
times... I also feel like using this to prevent bullying or suicides is the
wrong option, as educating kids themselves would probably be a more sensible
idea (but hey you need teaching personnel that’s decently paid for that !).

It’s interesting that this surveillance is banned in France because teachers
and pupils have « a right to privacy »: [https://www.cnil.fr/fr/la-
videosurveillance-videoprotection-...](https://www.cnil.fr/fr/la-
videosurveillance-videoprotection-dans-les-etablissements-scolaires)

~~~
bilbo0s
> _Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral
> development of those children ?..._

I don't have any data or anything, but I think that brain development is not
even complete until well after 12th grade in humans. In particular, I think
the ability to self regulate is compromised.

So here's the thing, the people doing all this are child development experts,
so they would know all about brain development. A lot more than myself. In a
very real way, these guys have made it a policy to monitor children who they
know very well will likely not change their behaviors due to being monitored.
So you have to wonder if this is just more about attribution and the ability
to justify punishments? Just administrators playing CYA?

"No ma'am. We _know_ it was your son who assaulted that girl. Here's the video
for your perusal."

"No son. We know you said so and so to that other student over there. Here's
the video."

"No sir. That was _definitely_ your daughter fighting over there. Here's the
video."

Etc etc etc.

So in answer to your question, "No." Children will not change their behavior.
Certainly not at the mean.

Welcome any corrections from any child dev experts on HN if I'm wrong about
brain development in children.

~~~
thatfrenchguy
« So here's the thing, the people doing all this are child development
experts, so they would know all about brain development »

But are they ? Do we have any indication that this is the case ? Those tech
companies could just be after what they see is money and not be based on any
science (as it’s often the case).

From Gaggle’s website: « You are invading my child’s privacy! Well, aren’t
you? Most educators and attorneys will tell you that when your child is using
school-provided technology, there should be no expectation of privacy. In
fact, your child’s school is legally required by federal law (Children's
Internet Protection Act) to protect children from accessing obscene or harmful
content over the Internet.".

This is the worst straw man argument I have seen in a long time. You can
prevent my kid from seeing porn without reading everything she does.

~~~
bilbo0s
> _Those tech companies could just be after what they see is money and not be
> based on any science (as it’s often the case)..._

Well, that's true.

I guess I just assumed people would be doing all this in step with some theory
or principles of child development that indicated that this would be
effective?

Maybe I'm giving way too much credit.

------
LocalH
It's interesting the parallels that can be drawn to _tobacco addiction_ , of
all things. Hook 'em while they're young, and they won't think anything about
expanding the surveillance when _they 're_ in power, because it's what they're
used to, so why not if it can protect people?

~~~
artificial
Why not examine it from another perspective? Risk and reward? Are more people
served by it or harmed? For example look at how useful dashcams and bodycams
are to situations! Oh and an anecdote! I was parking at work and the building
security cameras witnessed the collision (driver was on their phone and tboned
me) making the insurance claim open and shut. We have security camera inside
as well with displays throughout the building making finding people in a
building with multiple floors easy.

~~~
moorhosj
I think the point is that once the cat is out of the bag it’s hard to put it
back. For example, at first more people were helped by opiates than harmed. As
time passed, by the time we realized that relationship had changed, we already
had a bunch of addicted citizens.

It isn’t too much of a stretch to imagine an authoritarian government using
our own surveillance video for nefarious purposes.

~~~
Rainymood
I don't want to use the word "literally" too much but ... China is literally
doing this.

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csours
If you ask the government to do something impossible, such as provide COMPLETE
safety and security, they will try to do that. I think the news media bears
some responsibility in this regard, as they always blame or call out whatever
agency that fails to maintain safety and security, thus leading to severe
measures to try to mitigate the previous failure.

~~~
FrozenTuna
Absolutely. Even in this thread there are arguments about there being dark
areas where the cameras can't see so they won't be effective enough. Nothing
was learned from no child left behind. 100% policies don't work.

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klodolph
Before we had children misclassified as threats by errant algorithms, we
misclassified them with people. There were a bunch of zero-tolerance policies
passed in the early 2000s, and they often provided no path to understand or
appeal the decision to label a child as a threat.

------
panzagl
Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has
cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are
ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little
bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to
steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why
are you picking on them' the principal just rolls the footage and watches as
the realization that their kid is a little shit dawns on the parent.

~~~
ralusek
Nope. Not worth it.

There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their
behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the
automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion
of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob
children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in
a way that cannot always be substantiated with hard evidence? Do we really
want to condition young minds to see a constant surveillance as a kind of
benevolent security blanket?

And that's not even all that's at stake. The Overton window is shrinking as it
is, and academia has adopted a censorious and puritanical orthodoxy. Classes
benefit a great deal from the students who care enough to challenge what is
presented as de facto truth, but I'm inclined to believe that this will give a
basis to silence that behavior. Looking back on my own experiences, would I
have felt comfortable speaking out against teachers if I knew I was under
surveillance? I'm not so sure. But in most cases, even the teachers themselves
often told me that they were happy to have somebody engage them meaningfully.
But some weren't so happy, and those are the ones that have a new channel for
abuse.

And what about the teachers? Some of the best teachers I had would've been
fired for what they taught, or allowed students to do. Allowing controversial
class discussions, sometimes among students bordering too young to handle the
subject matter. Doing a dangerous chemistry or physics demonstration that
bends the rules slightly. A classroom led by a cheeky teacher was often ruined
by the superintendent or principal standing in the doorway. Now they're in the
doorway 24/7.

~~~
panzagl
No one actually watches the video, unless something happens.

And this is an elementary classroom- resolution of petty squabbles means 28
kids don't get to learn while 2 others yell 'he did it first'. They can be
beasts to each other at recess.

~~~
everdrive
If it helps, this is a very realistic portrayal of how privacy is degraded
over time. Invading privacy has all sorts of practical applications. You can
fight crime more effectively, and measure trends, and generally be more
effective at all sorts of capitalism and statecraft. But, problems, and risks
just pile up over time. Just think of what we could do for just one small
sacrifice!

~~~
panzagl
But what privacy is there in a classroom? Theoretically the teacher could
capture the same information by being more observant.

~~~
everdrive
A wise teacher can offer a bit more dignity by choosing what they notice and
draw attention to, or not.

~~~
skybrian
Perhaps the same is true when choosing how to use video recordings?

~~~
everdrive
Maybe. They're more ubiquitous, and almost certainly available to more
parties. Can I really exercise my own judgement when my boss can watch the
tape too?

~~~
EpicEng
My wife is a teacher and I promise you that principals don't want to have to
manage their teacher's classes. They only step in when required or asked to.

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tastygreenapple
The surveillance is less than worthless when schools are so constrained in
their ability to meter out discipline. I went to one of the first surveillance
schools in my state and I was bullied relentlessly, despite the video evidence
the school was reluctant to suspend my attacker. This may be because my bully
was black and from the hood and my school was sued by the NAACP to accept more
black kids and keep the suspension rate 'racially equitable' \- which amounted
to different punishments depending on the race of the rule breaker.

~~~
Nasrudith
The truth is it isn't there ability to hand it out as you would find out if
you did wrong. The issue is they don't care if it doesn't go against their
fucked up social order.

------
opwieurposiu
Currently trying to decide how to school my kids ages 3yr and 1yr. Public,
private or homeschool. Parents who have been there, How did you choose?

~~~
steverb
All three. We have 4 kids (3 of them now adults).

We re-assessed every year and decided with the kids what their education
environment would look like each year.

One of them, our extremely musical daughter flipped between homeschool,
private and public school several times until we found a university model
school that worked well with her needs (lots of schedule flexibility to do
extra-curricular music things).

You don't have to choose one way and stick with it. Your children's needs will
change in ways unique to each of your kids.

[Edit] Also, schools change year to year depending on staff and pupil
turnover. There's no honor in torturing your kid with a school situation that
is just not working for them, especially if you have other options.

~~~
germinalphrase
From a logistics point of view, how did you handle having multiple children
going to/moving between multiple different schools? Is the age difference such
that traveling to different schools for drop off/pick up was already assumed?
I admire your thoughtfulness, but the time associated with shuttling to
multiple locations each day seems challenging.

~~~
steverb
That's a really good question, and reminds me that school choice was never
JUST about what the kid(s) wanted. Logistics was usually part of the planning.

Usually at least two of them were in the same school. The oldest three were
each 18 months part, and the youngest was three years younger than the next
oldest sibling.

I took some, wife took others, ride share, public transportation (the kids in
public school rode the city bus). The kids also learned to be okay with the
idea that they might not get picked up as soon as school let out, or they
might have to get dropped off half an hour (or more) before school started.
They learned to deal with it the same way my wife and I did when we were their
age.

All of which became phenomenally easier as they got old enough to drive
themselves (and their younger siblings).

It was a lot of juggling, but it was still less work than homeschooling all
four of them (which we did for a couple of years), and they generally didn't
start going completely separate directions until they hit high school age.

------
masswerk
Archived article: [http://archive.is/nD0O9](http://archive.is/nD0O9)

------
zeulhex
What kind of society will we live in when the generation raised in this
environment is in charge?

~~~
Nasrudith
I can see two possibile outcomes named after the stereotypical age of the
reaction. The "child" outcome where it is accepted as the norm or the
"teenaged" one where they tear it down and call previous generations
terrible/stupid people for being responsible for it.

Essentially that seems to be the pattern of resolution of changes - sometimes
applied recursively in a cyclic way. One example is baroque vs austere in
church design and iconoclasm.

I am hoping for teenaged ones to gain dominance since the people who look at
the surveillance and say "What the fuck is wrong with you - you are literally
acting like antagonists in a young adult science fiction dystopia!" seem to be
a minority in influence currently.

------
cj
The paywalls on all major news sites are driving me crazy.

Not because they cost money (I am willing to pay), but because it's not
practical to buy an online subscription to 10+ major news sites individually.

Is there a service that lets you pay 1 monthly fee for a subscription to the
top 10 major (paywalled) news sites?

~~~
dang
I know it's annoying, but please don't take HN threads on this off-topic
tangent. The situation sucks, but we all know how it sucks, all these
discussions are the same, and the rule here has been settled for years: if
there's a workaround, it's ok. Users usually post workarounds in the thread.

This is in the FAQ at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html)
and there's more explanation here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989)

[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20paywall&sort=byDate&...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20paywall&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0)

~~~
cj
> Users usually post workarounds in the thread.

Yea.. the purpose of this comment was to ask if there's a way to _pay_ for
these paywalls to _permanently_ bypass them.

And there were some useful replies: I haven't looked into Apple News Plus
before. Thanks for the reply, jbigelow76 and runwerks

And sorry Daniel. I guess I should have posted an Ask HN instead.

