
India’s Downward Spiral - iprashantsharma
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/02/india%E2%80%99s-downward-spiral
======
leephillips
This is an unsurprising extension into the electronic realm of India's
notoriously weak support of free expression. They were the first country to
ban the _Satanic Verses_ ; its import, I believe, is _still_ illegal there.
Citizens are routinely persecuted under laws that literally prohibit hurting
people's religious feelings (recently invoked against a researcher who exposed
another fake Catholic miracle[0]). India is the most prominent example of a
country with plenty of voting but no democracy.

[0] [http://blog.newhumanist.org.uk/2012/07/sanal-edamarukus-
situ...](http://blog.newhumanist.org.uk/2012/07/sanal-edamarukus-situation-
worsens.html)

~~~
monsterix
> India is the most prominent example of a country with plenty of voting but
> no democracy.

Second you on that one! I lived in various parts of rural India for a little
over 12 years, and the deeper I went, the more I saw people there actively
voting in droves. And the harder their life and generally poor state of
affairs!

~~~
sharoonthomas
+1

sadly democracy in India only has the voting part implemented fairly well.
It's a monarch until the next election. Even the voting is neck deep in
corruption [1]

[1] [http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/cash-for-
vo...](http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/cash-for-votes-cases-
against-50-dmk-men/article5390763.ece)

~~~
bipin-nag
What do you mean its a monarch until next election. Head of state is often
elected for the term period. Also it maybe one of the cases reported, it
doesn't imply voting is entirely corrupt.

~~~
bipin-nag
Will the downvoter exercise his freedom of expression to tell me what is wrong
with my comment above.

~~~
eitally
My guess is that he meant "dictatorship" rather than "monarchy". You took
umbrage with his mistake rather than forgiving that and recognizing his
intent, which is that the PM role in India has way too much power.

------
RealGeek
In India, people are being arrested for voicing disagreement with politicians
and influential people on social media. You could even be arrested for liking
a Facebook post criticizing a politician.

[http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/11/19/indian-woman-arrested-
ov...](http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/11/19/indian-woman-arrested-over-
facebook-like/)

~~~
virtuabhi
Yes, this is true. We are definitely not near the US standard on the defense
of free speech.

But the case you mentioned is one of the small number of such cases (I
remember one from the state of West Bengal). And in this case, the over
eagerness of local authorities was criticized by both the government and
public.

As of now, I would place India somewhere between UK (with its defamation laws)
and US (gold standard of free speech) on the free speech issue. I do hope that
the government takes steps to make sure that local authorities do not have
power to override the right of free speech.

(Disclaimer: Indian citizen)

~~~
skrebbel
I think it's absolutely nuts that you're being downvoted into oblivion. The
fact that these crackdowns were criticized widely is a good contribution to
the debate.

It appears that there's people in this thread who downvote anyone who's from
India and doesn't think things are as bad as suggested.

~~~
RealGeek
He is being downvoted because he is in a denial mode, not because he is from
India. I am from India as well, I didn't get downvoted.

Many Indians think this way: "Freedom of speech, it's not that bad in India.
Modi will change everything."

Shocking thing is that a lot of Indians also believe that these people deserve
to be jailed for speaking against politicians. Even worse.. they are beaten by
a mob and their house is ransacked.

------
manish_gill
Worse yet, Indian government is apparently trying hard to emulate NSA's
Surveillance Programs:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A91idibgT0&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A91idibgT0&feature=youtu.be)

Here's the video's info:

"""India is currently implementing some of the scariest surveillance schemes
in the world. This lecture will shed light on India's surveillance industry,
its UID scheme which aims at the collection of all biometric data and on
various controversial surveillance schemes, such as the Central Monitoring
System (CMS).

When it comes to surveillance, the most mainstream argument is that the
majority of India's population lives below the poverty line and that
surveillance is an elitist issue - and not a "real" issue which affects the
masses. Given that the majority of India's population has mobile phones and
that the Indian government is currently implementing the Central Monitoring
System (CMS) which aims at intercepting all telecommunications (and Internet
communications), surveillance does not appear to be an elitist issue. Given
that the UID scheme aims at collecting the biometric data of all citizens
residing in India and that most BPL cash programmes require UID registration,
surveillance appears to be an issue which (unfortunately) affects the 1.2
billion people currently living in India. And this is to say the least. As
part of the Privacy Project, the Centre for Internet and Society (CIS) in
Bangalore, India, is investigating surveillance within the country. The
project is funded by Privacy International and aims to map out various forms
of surveillance in India, ranging from drones, CCTV cameras and GPS tracking
equipment to phone and Internet monitoring gear. This lecture aims to present
the research that Maria Xynou has undertaken at the CIS so far, which includes
data on the various surveillance technology companies operating in India and
the type of spy gear they sell to Indian law enforcement agencies. This
research also includes the presentation of India's various controversial
surveillance schemes, with an emphasis on the Central Monitoring System (CMS)
which unlawfully enables the interception of all telecommunications and
Internet communications. India is currently implementing the world's largest
biometric data collection and interception of communications schemes. The aim
of this lecture is to present India's scary mass surveillance and to discuss
its implications on the right to privacy and other human rights."""

~~~
virtuabhi
This is the first time I have seen UID scheme being mentioned as a
surveillance tool. The aim of the scheme is to replace the outdated mechanisms
- signature, name and address papers which can easily be forged. Why poor
people are encouraged to register under the UID scheme? So that the benefits
provided by India's socialist governments (central and state) can reach them
without any corruption or delay. The fear of it being misused is currently
unjustified and without any proof.

Secondly, I think most people over-estimate the Indian government's technical
ability. We are nowhere near US or China in mass surveillance. No Indian
agency has the expertise anywhere near NSA or PLA Unit 61398. And unlike in
China where there are many popular local tech companies, Indians use products
of American companies (Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc.). So the government
can neither ask the companies for data (like US) nor get the companies to
actively participate in any form of censorship (like China). As long as the US
companies follow basic security practices (HTTPS, SSL, 2-step verification,
etc..) and don't sell out, we should be fine on the internet.

(Disclaimer: Indian citizen)

~~~
3838
other governments have proposed similar things - in europe there is a
widespread distrust of these systems because they were used very effectively
by the Nazi's - record keeping in the Netherlands was very good - 75% of jews
were killed, in france the people collecting data conspired to protect jews by
not punching the jew slot on the punched card and only 25% were killed

a belgian company sold an ID system to the rwandan government, it was used by
one tribe to find people from another tribe so they could kill them

these systems are deadly in the wrong hands - if the info is not there, it
can't be abused.

~~~
mogrim
> in europe there is a widespread distrust of these systems

What makes you think that? In the UK maybe, but certainly in Spain no one
thinks twice about their ID cards. It's just something you have and use to
identify yourself - both in public administration and in private transactions,
for example paying money into a bank over the counter.

~~~
3838
there are other countries apart from the uk and spain in europe

------
pycassa
Also India ranks, 140 on world press freedom index 2014, if you move 7 places
ahead you will be in Putin land. It became worse in the last 10 years, 120 to
140.

[http://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php](http://rsf.org/index2014/en-
index2014.php)

~~~
known
Decline of the West.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_West#Democrac...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_West#Democracy.2C_media.2C_and_money)

------
tn13
One of the biggest difference between US and India is the constitution. Indian
constitution does not give freedom of speech to its people. So government can
pass all sort of laws.

The 1st amendment to US constitution gives people freedom of speech and
ensures that government can not pass any laws against it. On the other hand
all the "rights" that Indian constitution gives are subject to other
government approvals which means you can have Right X to the extent that other
existing laws allow.

Despite that several of laws except the IT laws are pretty good and time
tested. IT law however is horrible and puts a prohibitive cost on various IT
businesses.

Indian classified company Quikr (like CraigList) has hired 200 people just to
screen each and every post to make sure it is not "offensive".

~~~
pycassa
Is Quickr any good? From my experience, craiglist india is full of spam..
Every board is filled with men trying to hook you up with prostitutes.. No
matter what board it is..

~~~
tn13
CL India is very popular if you are into illegal things.

I managed to sell my bike on Quikr so clearly it works. Indian business face
trust issues by default.

------
skbohra123
Article is from 2012, can someone please edit the title to mention that?

~~~
bipin-nag
Also downward spiral is not very clear in context the article discusses.

------
anushprem
Did anybody noticed that this article is from 2 years ago, and a lot has
changed in 2 years including a completely new government??

~~~
shaan7
you mean how ICMS continues to operate? How section 66A of the "IT Act" is
still valid and you can be sent to jail for writing anything "offensive" on
any electronic media?

Nope, nothing has changed, and while everyone had high hopes for the new govt,
it will be foolhardy for any government to simply let go of such easy
censorship on the public.

In India its okay to burn a bus in `protest', but not post a facebook comment
to criticize some politician.

------
anuraj
India is a nanny state trying to save its gullible illiterate masses from
cyber influences deemed bad in culture. It is not the cyber surveillance
capabilities that is the problem (which is coarse anyway), but the
condescending attitude of bureaucracy who can send people to jail without bail
for a Facebook like or a retweet.

------
slaxman
A couple of points.

1\. This is old (2012). There was a major government change in May 2014. The
earlier government censored a lot of stuff. Mainly because their performance
was below average and they did not want people talking about it.

2\. The new government (led by Prime Minister Modi) is very oriented.
(Checkout the central attendance system implemented by them in a couple of
months: [http://attendance.gov.in/](http://attendance.gov.in/)). They have
been pushing for broadband internet connectivity in villages.

IMHO This is not as applicable today as it was 2 years ago.

My $0.02

~~~
known
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill
you." \--Oscar

[http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Black-money-case-Cant-
disclo...](http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Black-money-case-Cant-disclose-
names-of-foreign-account-holders-Modi-govt-tells-SC/articleshow/44846119.cms)

[http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Black-money-case-Govt-not-
re...](http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Black-money-case-Govt-not-reluctant-to-
reveal-names-Arun-Jaitley-says/articleshow/44855638.cms)

------
dharmach
\- Government's support to freedom of expression depends considerably on
availability of resources. If enough resources are unavailable, government has
to give priority to law and order instead of freedom of speech.

\- Surveillance is bad but depending on country's internal and external
security situation, it may be a necessary evil.

\- Removing content offensive to politicians is unacceptable.

~~~
Nano2rad
US constitution was created before it became rich. Same lack of resources
argument is used for not providing healthcare also.

------
known
Poor people should NOT vote in elections. They're vulnerable to
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud#Intimidation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud#Intimidation)

------
esya
This is from 2012 as others pointed, but also if you go to Google's
transparency report now, there is nothing after 2012 for India. Not sure why
this is trending.

------
known
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_minority](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_minority)
rules India

------
known
Patriotism in India is a favorite device of persons with something to sell. A
true patriot honors all nations.

------
eskimo87
these issues do not get noticed in India because for majority of Indians the
attention to and addressing fundamental problems (food, shelter, health) are
of utmost importance for time being.

------
transfire
One day there will be a global Internet that will not be censorable.

------
priteshjain
Why is so old article trending?

------
SteventM8
no wonder why google don't even shows me that It needs to store cookies when
you visit its Indian version of the search engine .

~~~
rangadas
Do you even know that stupid cookie law is only specific to EU?

------
imaginenore
Banning "offensive" materials was a huge mistake that will haunt them for
decades. Why? Because anything can be offensive.

Bacon article? A Muslim gets offended.

Computer article? A Luddite is offended.

Photos of art? A blind man is offended.

That rabbit hole is infinitely deep. Oops I just offended rabbit lovers.

------
enupten
If Modi does an Indira (instead of a Shastri), India is doomed.

------
jangid
This is an old article dated early 2012. The current govt is very responsive
to citizens.

~~~
shaan7
_LOL_

------
bveedu
This is a FEBRUARY 8, 2012 article .Why is it in spotlight now?

~~~
rangadas
Anti-Indian propaganda.

------
bveedu
This is a FEBRUARY 8, 2012 articles. I couldn't understand why is it in
spotlight now?

~~~
abhishekdesai
Same here.

~~~
shaan7
because the problem still exists? ooh no wait, we Indians should just forget
about it and continue being blind idiots.

------
cconcepts
As someone living in India, I have considered how to set up a discussion board
(like HN) that would be easy to use for users but also easy to be moderated of
junk (like HN is) but still be effectively anonymous.

It would allow discussion on such topics without fear of reprisal.

With my lack of coding skills would this even be possible?

~~~
allenbrunson
[http://hackerstreet.in](http://hackerstreet.in)

~~~
mqsiuser
wow... was already on HN:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4838206](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4838206)

