

Ask HN: Ethics and the "hacking system" Q from YC application - coryl

Hey guys, had a general question for you. For those who have applied or seen YC's app, theres a question that asks: <i>Please tell us about the time you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage.</i><p>PG writes: <i>If this wasn't already clear, we're not looking for the sort of obedient, middle-of-the-road people that big companies tend to hire. We're looking for people who like to beat the system.</i><p>Naturally, beating the system requires some form of deception (some degrees of lieing, cheating, dishonesty). The "system" was setup in a way to obviously prevent that, which is why it exists in the first place. I know it doesn't necessarily make you an unethical or a bad person if you beat a system. But someone reviewing my previous application made a good point that PG puts a lot of value in the "Don't be evil" mantra, and said that our hack the system examples were shady. So I thought about trying to balance the amount of shadiness with the amount of beating the system-ness. (To be clear, one answer was getting around a library system to fake returning a lost library book in the 6th grade. Another was bait and switch trade technique to get items in Diablo 2. Not super evil stuff, we were kids and had to be creative.)<p>Now I don't want this to be a discussion about what I wrote, I just wanted to provide context for my question. On one hand, PG wants people who beat the system. On the other hand, someone told me PG is high on ethics. These seem to contradict one another. Which side is more powerful and more important in making an impression? Thanks
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patio11
Beating the system doesn't require dishonesty -- it just requires approaching
the problem in a way the system did not anticipate.

For example, we all know what "the system" looks like for getting hired,
right? Send in your resume, which looks like every other resume. We'll have an
HR drone read it. You may be called back for an interview. Don't call us,
we'll call you.

One way to hack this system is to create a website designed to interact with,
specifically, the decisionmaker in charge of hiring you. Maybe you pull in
Google Analytics, an A/B test, sixteen different web services/Twitter
integrations/whatever, and then after a few minutes hit him with a AJAX popup
asking for what time is best for you to call him about hiring you. On the
call, you demonstrate uncanny attention to what he needs by the simple
expedient of talking about the topics he evidenced the most interest in by
interacting with on your resume. (He read seven blog posts and didn't touch
your educational achievements once? That tells you something.)

That isn't dishonest in the slightest: you're using your professional skills
to effectively demonstrate that you and the company would be a mutually
beneficial pairing. You're just presenting yourself in a more engaging,
effective, forceful way than the overdone resume format would present you in.

~~~
coryl
I gotcha, good example. Did you try this at some point, or did you make it up?

~~~
patio11
The last time I was applying for a job I had insufficient web development
skills to pull this off and I rather doubt I will ever have need to apply for
a job again, so no, I have never actually delivered a resume in this format.
(Though if I were hypothetically doing an application to YC or otherwise
trying to influence a decisionmaker to give me money, I'd have a website
purpose-built for it.)

Let's see, previous job application hacks I have actually done: when I was 16
I applied for a summer job at a large American company which sells office
supplies, as a seasonal order entry operator. They sort of value obsessive-
compulsive attention to detail in that position (difference between 10 reams
of paper and 10 cartons of paper: rather substantial!). I am not normally a
very detail-oriented person but I have a fairly decent memory, so I called
them up, asked them to mail me a catalog, and then memorized a few bits of
trivia about prominent product lines and all their policies about shipping.

During the interview, the person speaking to me mentioned "drop shipment", and
then proceeded to explain what drop shipment actually is. I cut her off and
said that "Drop shipment is when you order from $COMPANY but the order
actually ships directly from the vendor." She asked if I had previous
experience in the industry. I said "No, but it is written in your catalog. You
see, customers should know whether they are ordering drop shipped products or
not, because while drop shipped products are covered by the same 'free
shipping for orders above $THRESHHOLD' policy as products shipping from the
warehouse, they are not actually carried by the same shipping lines, and
appropriately the customer needs to make arrangements to move the item from
the door. However, for an extra charge of $35, the truck driver will take it
to anywhere accessible via an elevator."

She looked at me dumbfounded for a moment.

"I made it my business to know your business."

That line was pure luck, incidentally -- I had to come up with it on the spot
because I did not have a half-dozen prepared, tested, memorable quotes ready
to slot in at any opportune time in the interview. I have learned the value of
those in the last decade, though.

~~~
coryl
Great story, one thing though. You were impressive in your
interview/performance, but I'm kind of failing to see how you "hacked" the
system.

You were smart by being prepared and researched the company's product
offering. This is kind of standard practice, to know what the company you're
applying to sells/builds. So in this particular example, can you show you
hacked the system? Is being more prepared than the average applicant good
enough to show this?

------
pg
_On one hand, PG wants people who beat the system. On the other hand, someone
told me PG is high on ethics. These seem to contradict one another._

They don't when the system is evil.

~~~
mschaecher
One of my examples: I was working on a political campaign for federal office.
The party had promised our candidate significant financial backing, it didn't
come through they just wanted a candidate in the race. We realized that we
were never going to be able to compete financially against an incumbent
candidate with a war chest of special interest money.

The hack I came up with was that we would announce that we weren't going to
accept and money from lobbyists, PACs, or anyone outside the state. Not that
we were going to get much anyways ;)

We still got stomped. But it was great ammunition in our message toolbox and
we used it all of the time.

Thats what I call message hacking.

------
Rust
One way to "hack the system" is to do what you said - employ some type of
deception or misdirection in order to gain something you shouldn't.

Another way is to re-purpose something to do what it wasn't designed to do.
For example, any contraption that would be called a "Rube Goldberg Machine"
would qualify as (non-computer) hacking. MAKE Magazine is full of hacks of
this nature as well. The Burning Man Festival is a great place to see things
hacked together.

Another way might be to fix a perceived flaw through unorthodox means. For
example, I put new pickups in my guitar, and they were too hot (too loud, bad
distortion). Instead of replacing them (they sounded awesome at lower
volumes), I routed the pickup holes to be slightly deeper, then wired in a
bypass switch, letting me choose to have a normal tone or naturally overdriven
(good distortion) tone. Drummers who put tape over part of a drum skin are
hacking their system. Guitarists with old Stratocasters often file their nuts
and lower the bridge for better tone.

So I respectfully disagree - one can definitely be a (non-computer) hacker and
be ethical at the same time.

~~~
coryl
Great points, I understand your idea about hacking a system.

But PG alludes to "obedience" in his comment and "middle of the road" people,
leading me to believe he wants to see some sort of gain over the system. A
rube goldberg machine doesn't really fit that profile. Fixing your guitar up
doesn't really beat the system. Sure you hacked it up and saved money, but did
it really show how clever you are? (Not that I'm saying you aren't)

~~~
Rust
I consider what I did to my guitar beating the system ;) But then, I'm a
guitarist so that's in my domain. It would have been cheaper to just get
middle-of-the-road pickups instead - less money, less gain (in a signal-
strength sense).

Having said that, I understand your point. My examples were not necessarily
about beating a system, but changing how that system relates to myself (or
whomever). And I did get to type the phrase "file their nuts" with a straight
face.

Inconveniently, I am having trouble coming up with relevant examples of
ethical, non-computer hacking resulting in some sort of net gain unrelated to
a select niche of people (like guitarists). I'll have to get back to you on
that one...

------
cperciva
_On one hand, PG wants people who beat the system. On the other hand, someone
told me PG is high on ethics._

I think this question serves two purposes: First, to see how creative people
have been in hacking systems; and second, to see how people interpret the
question.

------
JacobAldridge
_"Naturally, beating the system requires some form of deception (some degrees
of lieing, cheating, dishonesty)"_

I think that's a flawed premise. Remove the assumption (as others have done)
that "beating the system" means any of those things, and the argument fails.

------
jacquesm
I think your examples are pretty 'light', and not in any way detrimental, but
I could be wrong.

To me it is as simple as 'whitehat/blackhat' hacking.

And what you did when you were a kid should be taken with a grain of salt,
there is a reason we keep childrens criminal records sealed.

