
Scientists plan to create 'Asgardia' nation state in space - goodcanadian
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37650274
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micaksica
These ideas are cute and trend well on HN, but I fail to see what real
political effect they have outside of making some people feel good that they
can pretend to be some type of star citizen. Sealand had a better claim to the
traditional definition of sovereignty than a roving satellite you can't even
set foot on ever will have.

Geopolitics is more than sticking a flag on something, and then saying it's a
nation-state. No current country will respect the "citizenship" of Asgardia,
and the "citizens" of Asgardia will be subject to the laws of their resident
countries. The moment there is any real threat to the current geopolitical
status quo by an orbiting nation-state platform, the current powers, assuming
equivalent strength in the future, will strangle or corrupt it from existence
with financial and military power.

I don't even see how it would ever get powerful enough for other nations to
take notice; a hypothetical space station makes a terrible nation state
because it has no resources of its own. Without resources it is powerless and
reliant on other states. Let's assume it has trade from asteroid mining or the
like; with these resources and trade it is, for military/national security
purposes, an enormously fragile platform floating in a place uninhabitable to
humans if there is so much as an air leak. It is pretty much the least
defensible position, and all it takes is a strongarm threat of blowing it in
half with a nuclear weapon to make them pay attention to you. What retaliatory
force do you have if your space station inhabitants all died from
asphyxiation?

~~~
Razengan
So let's indulge this hypothetical scenario further, for fun.

Say one of the currently powerful countries establish a research station on
the dark side of the Moon, and it becomes self-sustaining at some point, from
say asteroid mining and 3D printing and growing synthesized food, powered by
using whatever's on the moon for some nuclear whatchamacallit system.

What if that colony decides to become politically independent?

Would any of the nations back on Earth be able to project force on the far
side of our moon? Won't it be very easy for the Moonians to just shoot down
any approaching ships or ballistics?

~~~
Retric
_Won 't it be very easy for the Moonians to just shoot down any approaching
ships or ballistics?_

No, because kinetic weapons work fine in space and you can't dodge a moon base
making it a really easy target.

Consider this
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/16%22/50_caliber_Mark_7_gun](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/16%22/50_caliber_Mark_7_gun)
_They fired projectiles weighing from 1,900 to 2,700 pounds (850 to 1,200 kg)
at a maximum speed of 2,690 feet per second (820 m /s) with a range of up to
24 miles (39 km). At maximum range the projectile spent almost 1½ minutes in
flight._ now you have a minute to do something how do you stop one of these.

~~~
Razengan
Is it currently possible to fire something _from Earth_ and have it curve
around to the other side of the moon without being vulnerable to a point
defense system along the way?

~~~
Retric
Yes, just launch a rocket with a sold lead ball as a payload. Point defense is
still more science fiction than reality but it requires a delicate target so
you can detonate near it and destroy it. However, without air resistance there
is no need for a nuclear or HE payload just go faster.

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gregjwild
I cannot fathom why someone would want to recreate the flawed idea of a nation
state in space.

Not that this is in the slightest bit viable. But still, whatever polities
exist in space, they should not be nation states.

~~~
duaneb
> pacifist nation-state

These seem to be directly contrary. What's the point of nationalism without
subjugating the inferior? I think it's just called 'culture' at that point.

Also, Igor Ashurbeiyli is not a scientist, he is a businessman with an
engineering PhD.

~~~
cyphar
A nation state means a group of people who only have to obey their own laws.
It has nothing to do with nationalism.

~~~
dllthomas
That doesn't seem to square with the wikipedia page:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state)

> A nation state is a type of state that conjoins the political entity of a
> state to the cultural entity of a nation

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maxander
I suppose in a sort of realpolitik sense, in order to recognized such a
"nation" would need to have appreciable geopolitical impact. Impact means
resources, and having resources, for a state without _natural_ resources,
means collecting taxes. So, the question is, would these wannabe Asguardians
_pay_?

Recognition (and space sovereignty issues) aside, a "virtual state" like this
could be useful! For instance- Suppose such a state with fairly open
"immigration," that collected income taxes and put that money into a central
bank and a welfare program. Attract a sufficient affluent population with
ethical appeal and favorable banking, and you can provide a little shadow-
socialist support structure.

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lesserknowndan
I'm surprised that no one has drawn parallels with the underwater city of
Rapture from Bioshock.

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heroprotagonist
The Asgardia website is pretty vague about its goals. They almost sound like
the stereotype of mad scientists who want to skirt ethical regulations around
research and experimentation:

[http://asgardia.space/concept](http://asgardia.space/concept)

 _Economical and political considerations often take precedence over purely
scientific ones and ethical boundaries are considered necessary to sustain
safety.

...

Asgardia will demonstrate to scientists throughout the world that independent,
private and unrestricted research is possible.

...

Asgardia [...] will offer an independent platform free from the constraint of
a land-based country’s laws._

I'm not sure how helpful their satellite will be to this end, if they can't
put scientists on it to perform their research. They'll still be bound by the
laws of whichever country they reside within.

~~~
soufron
At the same time... what kind of laws do they want to get rid of?

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FullMtlAlcoholc
Reading about this, I personally think what a waste.

The idea of colonizing Mars has a certain appeal because there would finally
be an escape from nation-states and the games they play with their citizens as
pawns. No indoctrination that starts at preschool, appeals to
patriotism/nationalism where your state is the best and everyone else is
inferior due to some combination of religion, ethnicity, or values.

It represents a new beginning, a world without artificial, fictional
boundaries where all must cooperate to survive, a place where there is a
recognition that we are all one species.

~~~
jshevek
> finally be an escape from nation-states and the games they play with their
> citizens as pawns.

With our current culture, this will not last long.

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jesuslop
I've always found this idea intriguing and fun. It hasn't to be something in
outer space, it can just be a landless state, constituted by people itself.
Some opensource lessons about cooperation could be applied to create the
foundational legal corpus. You would still be bound to your current law, but
some conceptual political experimentation could be done bloodlessly as
sometimes has happened in tangible nationalities. State sanctioned digital
currency could rise some eyebrows.

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packetslave
If you don't have an army, you don't have a "nation state". You have a
clubhouse.

~~~
nickff
There are many 'nation states' without armies of their own.[1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_arme...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces)

~~~
stcredzero
Almost everyone on that list has a deal with someone else who will come in
with their armed forces to protect them.

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scififan2
Certainly possible, but mostly only very, very, very rich people would live
there. Have a look at "Elysium". The rich people would create their own
culture. They wouldn't take care about the Earth.

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soufron
They need to understand that atlas shrugged is just a book - and badly written
that is.

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stcredzero
They claim to be a nation of people in space. They have a name based on the
mythological place of Asgard. Not only do they have to contend with the US,
Russia, and other spacefaring powers, but they might also get a call from
Marvel Comics lawyers. (Read: Disney's lawyers.)

~~~
ocdtrekkie
I highly doubt Disney can claim ownership to Asgard.

~~~
dllthomas
Disney can claim anything they damn well please.

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daltondiaz
Sounds like Sidonia! =D

