
The Violent Afterlife of a Recycled Plastic Bottle - pmcpinto
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/12/what-actually-happens-to-a-recycled-plastic-bottle/418326/?single_page=true
======
radicalbyte
The article mentions the Bottle Bill system: this is a system where you pay a
small deposit on every bottle you buy which is then refunded when you return
the bottle to the supermarket.

This results in the bottles being recycled.

We have this system here in The Netherlands and I must say it's fantastic: we
get proper thick Coke bottles and my bin doesn't get filled up so quickly.

Sadly this system isn't used for all bottles - 500ml bottles aren't covered -
and it's only drinks (soft drinks + beer). It's also far from Europe-wide -
the UK for example doesn't have this system.

Recently the soft-drink manufacturers - presumably Coke/Pepsi - have been
lobbying hard to kill this system.. Nice to see how they care about the
environment..

~~~
douche
A number of the states in the US have a bottle deposit, which sounds like the
same idea. Problem is, it is only 5 cents, where it has been for like forty
years, so it is only worth collecting and trading in the bottles if your time
is effectively value-less. And it's not universal, so we still get the crap
thin plastic bottles, they just cost a nickel more in some places than others.

There was a Seinfeld episode involving Kramer collecting a busload of bottles
in NY (with $.05 deposit) and driving them to Michigan, where there is a $.10
redemption value.

~~~
toomuchtodo
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1blsZxXDCU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1blsZxXDCU)

------
cb18
Regardless of one's feelings about 'climate change,' it really behooves us to
stop doing a variety of things in a way that are hugely destructive to the
planet and ourselves. That would be good policy no matter what, but the fact
that so often our hugely destructive actions are in the service of deriving
relatively minimal value makes it patently absurd.

So it was quite striking that in the few images I saw from the recent Climate
Summit in Paris, there were people standing around tables scattered with
plastic water bottles. Really? Given the subject matter under discussion and
you're going to sit around drinking water from a material derived from oil,
that after it's brief service to you will have negative and hugely long-
lasting effects on the biosphere, really?

~~~
gruez
>So it was quite striking that in the few images I saw from the recent Climate
Summit in Paris, there were people standing around tables scattered with
plastic water bottles. Really?

I'm pretty sure the people there are politicians. So my cynical view is that
most of which only care about the environment only because their constituency
does.

------
mratzloff
The article says plastics are washed repeatedly, so I'm trying to figure out
if putting dirty plastic in the bin is acceptable or not. My city's recycling
instructions say to wash plastics before putting them in the bin, and if I
can't adequately clean something I've been more inclined to put it in the
garbage instead. What's the right answer?

~~~
jfoster
It also says:

> “Unfortunately the bags themselves can’t be recycled—they are too dirty, so
> they will end up in a landfill.” This holds true for all plastic items that
> haven’t been cleaned properly—hence, the leaflets calling for us to “rinse
> our recyclables.” The cleaner a plastic bottle is, the more likely it will
> be marked for reincarnation as something new.

That bit happens before the washing, so I think the advice to wash plastics is
correct. Sounds like there may not be harm in placing all plastics into the
recycling bin regardless of their cleanliness, though; sounds like they'll
just end up as waste if not clean enough.

~~~
userbinator
_Unfortunately the bags themselves can’t be recycled—they are too dirty, so
they will end up in a landfill_

I think at some time in the future they should also be excavated and
reprocessed, because plastic is a petroleum product and the natural sources
are known to be very finite. There is plenty of plastic in landfills that we
just don't know how to effectively reprocess, or we would. That's also why I
think the biodegradable stuff is not a good idea in the long term; sure it
"disappears back into the environment", but overall a lot more energy needs to
be spent in producing it --- really, extracting it from the environment ---
than just reusing or recycling plastic that has already been extracted and
gone through most of the production stages.

~~~
vpribish
TL:DR - we will never run out of raw materials for plastics

The resources used for plastic are so vastly plentiful that considering them
unlimited is a good approximation -- they may get more expensive but the
market will sort that out. A lot of smart, well-meaning people get derailed by
belief in imminent scarcity - and waste their time that could be spent on real
opportunities.

* only a couple of percent of petroleum and natural gas production is used for plastics [http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=34&t=6](http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=34&t=6)

* crude oil reserves (a very conservative measure) are immense and growing - [http://www.opec.org/library/Annual%20Statistical%20Bulletin/...](http://www.opec.org/library/Annual%20Statistical%20Bulletin/interactive/current/FileZ/XL/T31.HTM)

* natural gas reserves (a very conservative measure) are immense and growing - [http://www.opec.org/library/Annual%20Statistical%20Bulletin/...](http://www.opec.org/library/Annual%20Statistical%20Bulletin/interactive/current/FileZ/XL/T32.HTM)

* consumption is growing globally (production is outpacing the growth - hence the crash in crude prices), and in the US (the larges consumer) it's actually fallen over the last 10 years [http://www.indexmundi.com/energy.aspx?country=us](http://www.indexmundi.com/energy.aspx?country=us)

in a couple of centuries, maybe, we will have some difficulty meeting the
petroleum needs for petrochemicals - but only if we keep using the crude and
natural gas for vehicle fuel, heating, and electricity (currently 95% goes to
these). Since we are already on the cusp of using renewables (and could switch
to nuclear if we needed) for most of these while we are swimming in cheap oil
- you should not worry about the future of plastics. So, don't waste your time
opposing biodegradables from a 'finite resources' perspective - instead
consider air pollution and greenhouse gasses on their own merits.

~~~
knughit
You are forgetting exponential population growth and _developing_ nations. "It
just costs more" meand it won't run out, but not won't be usable everywhere
desired either.

The reason not to care about using it up is that tragedy of commons means we
can't stop from being used up.

~~~
vpribish
not at all - and exponential growth is a more nuanced term than you may
realize. UN population growth projection for the next 100 years shows (95%
conf) at most a doubling of population. development of nations has roared
ahead since the industrial revolution, and petroleum reserve development has
easily kept pace. I really am saying that time spent worrying about running
out of oil -- ESPECIALLY running out for the purposes of plastics production
is a complete waste of your time and a distraction from actually important
things. Come to think of it, worrying about over-population is also a curious
preoccupation of rich, privileged, people like ourselves.

Malthus was wrong.

That there is a commons does not mean there is a tragedy.

------
edw519
I'm old enough to remember when the milkman delivered glass bottles of milk
into a box at our back door and picked up the previous week's empties. I
remember reading once that the average milk bottle had a life span of 38 round
trips. The same was pretty much true for soda bottles.

Some progress, huh?

~~~
TillE
Glass bottles still work that way. Cleaned and reused. And at least in
Germany, sturdy PET bottles get reused too; Wikipedia says 50x for glass, 25x
for PET.

[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrwegpfand](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrwegpfand)

------
ck2
So dumb question but when they recycle plastics into water/soda containers -
how do they know it is food-safe plastic making it back into the chain and not
contain molecules that will "bleed" into the beverage/food?

~~~
classicsnoot
Read the article. It addresses that.

~~~
ck2
I did read it, it doesn't address that, at least not in any detail what-so-
ever.

 _The plastic flakes must be sterilized and tested to meet food-grade
standards_

Is that tested like how a certain number of roaches are allowed into food
mixes in factories and that there is 1 FDA inspector for every thousand
factories so there is no actual regulation going on thanks to congressional
defunding?

Because that means the plastic is most definitely contaminated.

------
JshWright
> Metals, such as, tin and aluminum are then extracted by magnets.

How would non-ferromagnetic metals be sorted using magnets?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Curiously, by moving a magnetic field through a non-ferrous metal an eddy
current is induced. Then the magnetic field interacts with that current, to
produce a force!

~~~
JshWright
Of course... I've done the "magnet in a copper tube" trick myself. Thanks for
helping me connect a couple dots!

------
jabberlope
Wasn't there an article circulated recently where they were advocating
reverting plastics back to their base ingredients as a much saner alternative
to recycling?

------
justifier
i'm fanning an interest in getting involved in moving legislature making
plastic bottling illegal

anyone have any early objections i could work on developing responses to?

~~~
classicsnoot
Not so much an objection, but more of a line of inquiry on tactics. Why try to
make something illegal? Why not make something legal? Like instead of 'No
Plastic', bonus for Plastic01 and 02. Plastic, like guns and cars and markets,
are inherently useful. It is the production, use, and misuse that is the
problem.

On a legislative level, I feel it is a mistake to always use the limitation of
action as an agent for change. Any time there is a problem, people demand a
law be made, and Law makers make some action punishable or unavailable. In
some cases, this makes sense (drinking and driving), at least initially. But
on balance, drinking and driving opens up so many areas for innovation and
profit _when you factor in self driving vehicles and on demand car services_.
The problem is going to be how long it will take to alter the Open Container
laws. It is hard to undo legislation in my country (USA). I wish people would
think to create motivators for desired behavior instead of consequences for
undesired behavior.

~~~
justifier
i've been thinking a lot about your inquiry and my response, so i thank you
for taking the time to make it

you've caused me to really consider what my goals are

i am uninterested in making plastics illegal but rather i'm interested in
reducing the amount of plastic waste in the world

my initial reaction is the best way to halt this is to remove the ability to
create more plastics

but as you pointed out it's more interesting to promote stead limit

so perhaps instead of making plastic use for superficial, yet to be clearly
defined, uses illegal perhaps there is a buy in for use allowance

meaning plastic bottling is illegal unless you pay for the rights for so much
plastic use

but the caveat is two fold

first: in order to pay for the rights you need to agree to reduce overall
plastic waste in the world

meaning, you can use plastic bottles for your product, but you need to be
diminishing old plastic accumulation

if you fail to reduce at the rate agreed in the permission then your rights
are again revoked

second: the only ones who can buy the rights to create plastics are research
teams attempting to decompose existing plastics

in this way the research is funded by the sponsorship of plastic users

meaning, a big corp that bottles in plastic uses profits to fund research in
plastic decomposition for the ability to continue to bottle in plastics

.

any thoughts?

------
kaudrius
What about mbapolymers.com ? They seem to be able to recycle efficiently any
sort of plastic. Why there are other recycling processes still in use ?

------
cdnsteve
The cycle of modern consumerism and corporations is disgusting. I laugh to
myself when I think North America looks down on third world countries. In many
cases, it's the exact opposite. I'm a spoke in the wheel like most, however
this article makes me want to change.

Recycling isn't the answer, it's part of the problem. We're all wearing,
eating from and washing in, plastic. Plastic or PET comes from _crude oil_. No
health concerns here.

\- Plastic in our clothing? Polyester is PET: [http://qz.com/414223/if-your-
clothes-arent-already-made-out-...](http://qz.com/414223/if-your-clothes-
arent-already-made-out-of-plastic-they-will-be/)

\- " PET, a plastic derived from crude oil that’s used to make soda and
ketchup bottles."

\- "In the last few decades, production of the material has surged. Between
1980 and 2007, the year polyester definitively overtook cotton as the world’s
dominant fiber, the amount of polyester produced annually increased from 5.3
million tonnes (5.8 million tons) to 30.9 million tonnes (34 million tons),
according to Tecnon Orbichem. By 2025, that number is projected to nearly
triple, to 90.5 million tonnes (99.8 million tons)."

\- "Over 50 percent of what is placed into New York City’s recycling ends up
in a landfill"

\- “Unfortunately the bags (used to transport platics) themselves can’t be
recycled—they are too dirty, so they will end up in a landfill.”

\- “There is plastic in everything—in your car, in your home, in every part of
your life,” says CarbonLite’s CEO, Leon Farahnik. “Globally, 100 billion
pounds of PET are used in a year: 70 billion pounds goes to carpet and
clothing; 30 billion pounds goes into packaging.” That’s a lot of plastic

\- "We don't know if and how many people die from plastic exposure," says Dr.
Halden, "but we do know that in the developed world we suffer from a lot of
diseases—breast cancer, obesity and early onset puberty—that are less
prevalent in developing countries. These are a result of our lifestyle." He
adds: "From a public health perspective, we should consider heated plastic an
unnecessary source of exposure to harmful elements and eliminate it."
[http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241278873244937045784332...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324493704578433290465517564)

\- "(BPA is used) in everything from the lining of metal soup cans to receipt
paper. The FDA banned the use of BPA in baby bottles in July 2012, because of
growing consumer concerns over its link to developmental delays.

While the recycling numbers at the bottom of plastic items "are not meant to
provide health information or risks," Dr. Halden says, they can sometimes
provide clues to the chemicals in them. For example, No. 7, says Dr. Halden,
means "there is a high likelihood" that Bisphenol A is in it. That reusable
water bottle sitting on your desk? "Think of it as one big BPA vessel," he
says.

~~~
gruez
>Plastic or PET comes from crude oil. No health concerns here.

So you're saying that plastic/PET comes from crude oil, therefore it's bad for
your health? flawless logic.

