
Ask HN: Is it too much to work AND play with tech? - dannyism
After years of coding on and off as a hobby, I&#x27;m starting to gain enough skill that it&#x27;s tempting to apply for a job in tech. However, one major fear is that burnout from work will kill my motivation to follow my true passions. I have some very specific projects in mind (related to music production &#x2F; sound synthesis, if anyone cares to know), and they mean a lot more to me than money ever will. I already suffer from some RSI symptoms due to the amount of time I spend working with my desktop workstation at home, which makes me doubly cautious.<p>Has anyone else faced similar challenges? Is it feasible or advisable to simultaneously balance work and hobbies in software engineering?
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truth_be_told
The answer is simple; if you do NOT need the money from working as a SE in the
Tech Industry, don't go in. You will burnout. It will affect your brain and
health in ways whose consequences we do not yet fully understand because the
effect is cumulative over time. Even if you don't dramatically break down one
day, you will be worn down in ways which you may find hard to reconcile with
your past self.

Now Tech itself is interesting and enticing. The problem is that the "Tech
Development Industry" has made the environment around it poisonous. Everything
is judged according to its monetary value, insane competitive pace and work
schedule, no planned time for rest, recuperation and recharge, constantly
shifting landscapes, herculean demands on your brain as regards coping with
complexity and finally, quite complex human interaction dynamics. For some
reason the industry completely ignores the psychological aspects involved
though it has been studied from the beginning (see the works of Gerald
Weinberg) and we now know more about the human brain and how it works. I have
come to the conclusion that working in the tech industry is "death by a
thousand cuts" where the cuts are in your psyche/brain draining the "joy of
life" out slowly.

Very few people are able to come to some sort of understanding between their
work and passion such that the downward decline is arrested and settle down to
a comfortable plateau.

~~~
badpun
> ou will burnout. It will affect your brain and health in ways whose
> consequences we do not yet fully understand because the effect is cumulative
> over time. Even if you don't dramatically break down one day, you will be
> worn down in ways which you may find hard to reconcile with your past self.

This can be said about a lot of other jobs as well. Work in its current 40
hours per week form is generally not good for us in my opinion.

~~~
truth_be_told
True to a certain extent. However it is not just a matter of labour. The
nature of Software Development is so very different from other jobs that we
need to study it from first principles. The main issue is the tremendous
cognitive effort demanded of Software Engineers (Dijkstra's paper "The Humble
Programmer" is relevant here) which exceeds the plasticity/adaptive capacity
of the Human Organism. Couple it with the complete lack of physical activity
due to our modern sedentary lifestyle and you have a recipe for maladaptation.
"Ego Depletion", "Decision Fatigue" are all real disorders.

I have a feeling that as we advance our study of the Science of "Epigenetics"
we will understand better the consequences of our current "Tech Industry
Lifestyle".

~~~
ScottFree
Anecdotal evidence incoming: I once needed to tow a motorcycle and the guy who
showed up used to manage data centers for Amazon. He didn't miss it. The
"brain drain" he felt at the end of the day was especially painful for him.
Altogether, he was much happier towing motorcycles for a living and tinkering
with tech during his off hours. He also made more money towing motorcycles, so
it was a win-win for him. Although, he quit before the salaries for engineers
skyrocketed.

~~~
badpun
Well, I imagine Amazon is pretty bad with regards of risk of burning out.
Meanwhile, you can cozy up at any of the megacorps (large banks etc.) and,
with some luck, consistently don't do too much work.

------
mnm1
Don't fuck around with your RSI. Get a proper adjustable desk / chair / ergo
everything (I like the Rollermouse Red / Kinesis Advantage 2 but you need to
find what works for you). See the doc. Go to
massage/chiropractor/PT/acupuncture/whatever works for you. Do not work
through pain. That should be your number one priority. If you fuck around it's
a good possibility you won't be working or having as a hobby anything to do
with computers. That's no exaggeration. For a long time I had to stop all non-
work computing and cut down severely on work computing. I have optimized the
hell out of my workflow. If you're a native English speaker, you may be able
to use voice to code, but I wouldn't count on it (I have an accent, so voice
recognition is useless). As far as whether you can do both work and hobby
coding without losing passion for your coding hobby, that really depends on
you. I can't really. Nothing to do with RSI. That's just the nature of work.
For me. Others happily do it. That's a question only you can answer and likely
only after trying. Good luck. And don't fuck around w/ your RSI if you care
about future computing.

------
AnIdiotOnTheNet
I'll say this much: the longer I work in technology the more I loathe it.
Every time anything breaks, which it seems is absurdly often these days, I get
really angry. It isn't enough I have to deal with esoteric issues brought on
by overly complex bullshit at work, no, pretty much everything people use
today that runs on electricity has the same damn problem! People are even
putting this shit in their light bulbs! Their fucking lights! Famously simple
enough to be operated by a switch for, what, over 100 years and now some
jackasses who want to sell shit think its a good idea to put more computing
power than man took to the fucking moon into it!?

It's enough that I'm seriously considering some sort of technological
ludditism. I'll start a new lifestyle, one where we only use technology simple
enough for the average 10 year old to hold an accurate model of in their head.
We'll trade messages on snail-mailed disks between our Commodore 64s or
something.

------
raindropm
For me, the key to not burnout (fast) is to have separate mindset for hobby
and work.

Say, my hobby will not relate in anyway to my work (that's quite obvious) but
also not about personal development, nor about maximizing my "potential", nor
about peer pressure, nor a way to make passive income or how it'll help me in
my life in the future, because that'll be the best recipe for burnout. Those
business/self development jargon words can stay within 'work' realm. Your
hobby can have those features of course, if it comes naturally, but I will not
put it as priority as to WHY I choose something as my hobby.

Hobby for me is purely hobby. Things I can lose myself into and not worry
about ANYTHING ELSE except things in front of me.

P.S. My day job is high-precision graphic designer, my hobby is clay
sculpting. There's something calming and relaxing about its low-pace nature —
unlike digital hobby though.

~~~
undulation
Could not agree more.

I'm not sure if it's a recent phenomenon or if it's something that makes
itself apparent in young adulthood, but I can't help but notice how many
people frame their hobbies and extra-work activities in terms of their ability
to maximize personal potential and provide some measurable personal profit.
I'm certainly not exempt from this thought-pattern, and I think it takes a
serious toll on one's mental well-being. When every bit of your free time must
be driven towards some worthwhile pursuit that will provide some measurable
benefit, you rob yourself of actually cultivating a genuine hobby: an activity
that you pursue for its own sake and enjoyment, and not for some additional
gain as a result of practicing said activity

------
jlangenauer
It can be. Certainly for me, the joy I got from experimenting with tech pretty
much declined in the decade or so since I started working full time with
computers. Now, after the working day, I try to avoid computers, preferring
instead things like cooking, walking outside, or playing piano.

So I can’t give you any advice, other than to say your fears are well-founded.

~~~
weq
I used to be a gamer, then started to code (age 13) Age 21, got first job
coding, stopped gaming. Age 25, stopped using tech or computers after work.
Age 35, working remotely (coding), want to go off-grid, live a more
subsistence lifestyle.

I _still love to code, have a deep passion for it_, i love to create; but
anti-tech in general. I call out my phone-abusing friends, and have become
very cynical to the whole tech-pr0n-bro-startup hype machine.

They used to call me a nerd at school, because i would skip sport to
game/create websites/do infrastructure for pocket money (1998). Now everyone
is the hopelessly addicted tech addict they looked down on, and im the only
one that apparently can see it.

I will not be letting my child interact with tech until they are sufficently
capable of understanding the marketing behind it. Seeing babies who cant get a
nappy change without an ipad in their face makes me wonder if the future of
tech is anything more then bodyless entities interacting in vRooms with 1000s
of companies tapped into your thought streams tailing your dreams to suite
their next product launch.

~~~
blablabla123
> have become very cynical to the whole tech-pr0n-bro-startup hype machine

Like most people probably I change my job every 1.5-2 years and have become
increasingly better at spotting companies where this culture is in place. At
the same time I notice there is increase in non-toxic cultures, I think there
is hope... ;)

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rdbell
Consider trying an ortholinear split keyboard like the Ergodox EZ for your
RSI.

I was starting to experience wrist pain after several 12-hour days of vim.
Ergodox solved the problem for me.

The learning process is annoying and you'll probably be tempted to give up
during the first couple weeks, but the benefits are worth the learning curve.

~~~
AlchemistCamp
> _Ergodox EZ_

Wow. This is basically a mashup of my two favorites—the Kinesis Advantage 2
and the Kinesis Freestyle Edge!

I'll definitely consider trying one of these out, too.

------
datafatmunger
I made a very conscious decision to refocus my creative energy from hobby
projects (I was busy with making music/bands/production) into my "tech" career
10+ years ago. This was one of the most dramatic multiplier decisions of my
life. Everything is still revolving around tech in some way, but in fantastic
manifestations … community building, non-profit founding, teaching at a
college level, co-working, art/design residencies/exhibitions/publications,
and a handful of companies … it’s been very enriching, and easily one of the
top 5 good decisions I've made.

------
AlchemistCamp
Get a truly ergonomic keyboard. I like the Kinesis Advantage 2 for home, and
the Kinesis Freestyle Edge when traveling.

Both are more expensive than the somewhat ergonomic keyboards made by MS or
Logitech, but both are well worth it!

~~~
Kaiyou
Unfortunately, I never found those truly ergonomic keyboards available with a
QWERTZ-layout, which isn't just a software problem, since German has four
letters more (äÄ, öÖ, üÜ, ß) and those ergonomic QWERTY keyboards never
account for this, so the value is diminished.

~~~
AlchemistCamp
Both keyboards are programmable, and it's extremely easy to do so with the
Freestyle Edge.

~~~
Kaiyou
You cannot program missing buttons.

On the right side to the '0' and 'P' I need two more buttons, right from the
'L' and the 'M' three. (Also, on the left side of the 'Y' which on QWERTY is a
'Z', I also need another button. Without those buttons in those places all
ergonomic advantages will be lost, since I have to remap those buttons
somewhere not especially ergonomic.

The buttons in question are btw: ß´ü+öä#,.-< and it would be fantastic if
there were even more buttons for stuff like []{}, which I can only reach via
ALT GR. Maybe Capslock could make way to two buttons '[' and ']' which then
could become '{' and '}' with one modifier key.

I'm on Linux, so I doubt the hardware will be easy to program.

------
voipspear
I write software as both a career and also a hobby. I’ve been doing this for
many years and I still love it.

My advice to you is to go for it.

About your RSI — I have suffered with this for many years. I found that
switching my keyboard to a new one would bring instant relief. The only
problem is that the new keyboards were lasting me shorter and shorter times. I
remember I was getting down to switching my keyboard every 11-13 days!

And then I found a permanent solution. I now go for a massage every 3-4 weeks
with the focus being on my arms, neck, hands. Since I started this, I haven’t
replaced my keyboard in 2 years!

~~~
its_the_future
I find that if the angle of my forearms is downward, I get a creeping RSI
brewing on top of my hands. Adjusting my seating and/or sitting position so my
forearms are horizontal and my wrists are resting and my hands can relax gets
rid of the constant tension and creeping pain. YMMV

------
ddingus
I know people who do both, and I know people who do one or the other.

A lot of whether this can work depends on your work environment. If it's one
that fits you well, and one where what they require of you isn't totally
draining, it's likely you will find yourself willing to follow your passions.

Should it be draining, or a tough environment, the cost may be those passions.

Why do you want a job in tech?

That's as important as the potential risks to your current passions.

Are you able to follow those passions without a tech job?

Could you potentially find one with more synergy? It's always good to find
work that resonates in this way. Many of us have.

There is also the fact that any burnout could put your passions at risk. Are
you at risk in your current job?

Factoring all that down, you are most concerned about burnout, and you are not
entirely sure where your burnout level is.

Physically, you've got some warning signs. Regardless of how you proceed, it's
advisable to address those right now.

Do you have access to health care? (I have to ask in the US, because large
numbers of us find that expensive, inaccessible) Bring this up. Make a plan.

You seem young. Deal with the very basics no matter what.

That's all I got.

------
Ballas
It depends on the person. I have found that as long as the work you do at home
is different enough, it could boost your productivity at work. Ideally, it
should relax you and lower the odds of burnout - if it doesn't, perhaps it is
not a good idea.

RSI is a more serious problem, I suggest sorting it out as soon as possible.
The split keyboard suggestion is an excellent one.

------
muzani
Yes. This was the key for curing me from burnout. Vacations didn't help. My
"non tech hobby" was spending time with the kids.

This was fine but I went out of touch with what I loved about tech. Teaching
helped a little, but lost the edge when my students didn't continue down the
SE path.

So I built things. I built them ruthlessly. No plan. No career goals. Just
free fall hacking.

Join random online games, then hack together solutions that help you beat
them. Don't just limit yourself to MySQL, NoSQL, etc, try making databases in
Google Sheets or plaintext. Maybe try optimizing things for no reason. If you
feel curious about something do it without planning, unless you're in a
planning mood.

Basically you should actually enjoy the hobby.

~~~
raindropm
"No plan. No career goal. Just free fall hacking"

Hell yeah. Your word sums up the 'play' spirit we all used to have when we
were young (that somehow got lost when we entering adulthood)

------
winrid
You only have so much energy in a day. You will just have to be cognisant
about how you feel during the day so you don't go home tired all the time.

I have been in tech for eight years now and I still go home and code on my
side projects every night.

I say go for it. I was starting school for mechanical engineering because I
thought I was done with software. That was after doing consulting for a couple
years (first job).

I think that was about seven years ago. I only did one semester before things
happened, I moved and ended up at my first office job. No regrets.

------
GaelFG
It's more easily said than done but not every software programming job need to
lead to burnout, especially of you are not looking for maximizing earnings.

It may vary individualy but switching context/environnement/project is enought
for me to avoid feeling being at work while doing hobby project, so I would
advice you to go for it if you like coding, more practice will lead to
improvements on your side project productivity.

------
nestorherre
For some it is too much, for others not. A lot of people work from 9-5 as
developers, and when they get home they put in a couple more hours on their
side projects. Others can't stand even looking at a computer afterwards. In
your case, you will have to find out, but if you're already asking and have
that doubt, I believe that it MIGHT be too much.

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1111638594
I was wary myself before commiting to a techy job, decided to get into sys
admin shit. Haven't felt passion doing anything tech-related in a long time,
so probably wouldn't recommend. Software development might be different,
though.

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peanutgal2600
All work and no play makes Johnny a dull boy.

Call it discrimination, but when I interview people for my team I filter out
those who don't have lives or a multitude of interests / passions. I just
don't want to be around robots 40-50 hours per week. I apply that same
discrimination in my personal and romantic life as well. After 25 years, a
computer is just a burden.

