
Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years - rbanffy
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-10/apple-said-to-plan-first-pro-laptop-overhaul-in-four-years
======
falcolas
I'm a software developer who focuses on operational automation, and this
brings almost nothing to the table which I could want. Especially replacing
the function keys with a touchpad; why would I want to replace dedicated keys
with muscle memory attached to them with soft keys that can change on whim?

Better graphics may be nice, if it's enough to allow me to drive a pair of
high-resolution displays in addition to the laptop's screen itself. I'm not
hopeful, though, due to the power and heat requirements.

As for thinner, at what cost? Battery life? Active cooling? A nasty keyboard
like those in the new macbook? Losing even more ports?

Here's what I want in a MBP refresh: More power. Enough battery life to allow
me on a hangout all day long; or at least enough battery life that I can have
Chrome running and still be able to code all day long. A strong enough
graphics card to smoothly drive a pair of 4k monitors in addition to the
internal monitor. No loss of existing ports. More CPU power for compiling
code. A touch screen.

~~~
NegatioN
Why the touch screen?

That seems like an odd addition to the list.

~~~
dillera
I agree, a touch-screen on a 'pro' laptop (unless it's a 2-in-1) is useless.

Also: Please don't ever, ever touch my laptop's screen.

~~~
partisan
I had a co-worker who made threats against anyone whose hands came close to
his screen. Even pointing at the screen was enough to get a look of death.

~~~
criddell
I can't stand fingerprints on my monitor, but I don't even notice them on my
phone or tablet. Before I got my first touchscreen phone, I was pretty sure
the dirty screen would drive me bonkers, but that never happened.

~~~
_JamesA_
That's probably because phones and tablets usually have oleophobic[1]
surfaces.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipophobicity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipophobicity)

~~~
anexprogrammer
I seem to have oleophobic-proof fingerprints then. I'm constantly cleaning
phone screen (swipe on jeans these days now phone is not spanking-new).

You could easily see my swipe or pin pattern from prints and smudges, even
from one use, which never happened with actual keys.

~~~
newscracker
The oleophobic coating does vanish with use over a period of time. That's why
you wouldn't see fingerprints and such on a new device, but would on an older
and well used one.

------
privateersman
All I want from a new MBP is to easily replace the: battery, ram and SSD. My
current one is several years old and has only lasted this long because those
parts could be substituted.

I'm guessing it's a lost cause, their ideas aligned with mine for a short
window and then they decided to turn it into a gadget rather than a user
serviceable computer.

~~~
sotojuan
This is going to sound cynical and overly negative but I don't understand why
people keep posting about replaceable parts on new MacBooks. It'll never
happen, as you admit.

~~~
privateersman
I am going to replace my laptop this year. I mentioned it in a last gasp hope
that it will be an Apple one. I suspect it will be something else though.

It's a pity, but I can't justify spending that sort of money on a professional
tool that feels more like it was designed for the consumer market.

~~~
gmu3
They sell more in the consumer market than professional market.

------
roymurdock
The real question...what is going to be soldered to the frame, and what will
be replaceable.

I bought a 2012 MBP last year because I wanted the ability to swap out its
guts at will. I doubt this new version will have that capability.

~~~
camillomiller
This comment being the top one, my friends, is why our discussions here on HN
are completely irrelevant in the great scheme of the consumer hardware market.
This is an opinion shared only by a meager minority of the market that may
have a big voice, but basically no power in determining the direction of what
we'll see shipped in the future.

~~~
drdaeman
Thank you Captain Obvious! ;) Developer-oriented machines (where beefy
hardware, specialized requirements and ability to upgrade parts are still
taken as granted, and loss of those is quite mourned) and generic consumer-
grade machines are most certainly different markets. Although I'm not sure how
MBPs are classified those days.

(E.g. ThinkPads used to have a fame of great programmers' laptops and now they
became quite less of that... the very same could easily happen to MBPs as
well.)

~~~
mgkimsal
Bit of a shame - the MBP is already pretty expensive, and it would be nice if
that had more user replaceable parts (memory, drive mainly) precisely because
they're "pro" machine (hence the P). Macbook and Airs - fine - consumer level
- soldered, non-replaceable. But for the premium charged... making it easier
for me to upgrade/swap my drive would be nice (it's not impossible, I know,
but not as easy as it used to be).

------
jwr
The sad thing is that there is so little competition. Apple can afford to be
lax with updates to their pro line, because there is no other combination of
hardware+software that gets the job done without being a huge time sink.

Before you mention laptops from Lenovo and the like, running Linux, please
consider that I have been using Linux since 1994 (that's pre-1.0), and that I
switched to mostly Mac sometime around 2006. And I've just installed a fresh
Ubuntu on a PC right next to me. So I do know what that option is like. And it
isn't even close.

I wish there was a strong competitor to Apple.

~~~
ashark
I've got young kids. Any laptop without a magsafe power connector is going to
be starting at a _huge_ disadvantage, as far as my deciding to purchase it.
That includes the USB-C-only Macbook.

Add being the only manufacturer (and software company—actually that part's
probably more important) that gives even half a damn about battery life, and
getting something unixy without the pain of Linux (also a long-time Linux
user, so yeah, I know how it is), and my not caring about more than Intel
graphics (discrete graphics in a laptop: _always_ a mistake in my experience)
and anything _remotely_ close costs just as much anyway, so I'll just go with
Apple. Competition would be great, but there's just... none.

~~~
Razengan
You can get MagSafe clones for USB-C:
[https://griffintechnology.com/us/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-
po...](https://griffintechnology.com/us/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-power-cable)

------
chiph
I've loved the MacBook Pros that I've had in the past. But Apple & I are
heading in different directions. Their "Pro" devices are now consumer status
symbols, not machines for getting work done.

~~~
knowaveragejoe
Indeed, the phrase I've heard that I think atly describes the phenomenon well
is that Apple is moving into developing Appliances rather than devices for
power users.

------
Someone1234
They seriously need to work on the Macbook Pro's cooling. Too much
throttling/overheating/heat issues.

The thin strip vent below the LCD simply isn't large enough and the fans not
powerful enough to cool a Radeon R9 M370X and the i7.

And, sure, they can direct some of that excess heat to the aluminium body, but
that hasn't been effective up until now so I struggle to see why it would
start being effective in the future.

~~~
nikon
Agreed, when running VMWare Fusion my 2014 15" MBP runs not only hot but
hideously loud.

------
JustSomeNobody
I wish they would stop with this obsessive, compulsive need to make everything
thinner.

~~~
stuff4ben
I don't. One of my coworkers has a Lenovo X1 and that thing makes my mid-2015
Retina MacBook Pro look chunky by comparison. Thinner, lighter, faster,
stronger are all what I want in my next laptop.

~~~
pavel_lishin
I'll take "faster and stronger" over "thinner and lighter".

I already carry it in a backpack with other things; I'm not interested in
shaving ounces at the expense of power.

------
n00b101
> Apple is using one of AMD’s "Polaris" graphics chips

Huge disappointment. MacBook Pro used to have NVIDIA GPUs and was an excellent
CUDA development environment. They switched to AMD around 2012. I suspect the
change was more business related than technical.

~~~
jsheard
AMDs Polaris architecture is also much more power hungry than NVIDIAs Pascal
architecture, at least on the desktop variants we've seen so far.

The RX480 (Polaris) trades blows with the GTX1060 (Pascal) performance-wise,
but the 1060 uses about 30% less power at load:

[https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_1060/...](https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_1060/24.html)

~~~
bryanlarsen
The RX480 Polaris is about 30% faster than the GTX1060 running DOOM4/Vulkan.
Apple's Metal is very similar to Vulkan, so it's quite possible that nVidia
Pascal and AMD Polaris have similar power usage while using Metal.

~~~
jsheard
Doom 4 is an outlier, the RX480 doesn't consistently gain that much from
Vulkan or DX12. You could just as easily point to Tomb Raider DX12, where the
1060 beats the 480 by about 20%.

According to Guru3D the two cards perform almost identically in Ashes of the
Singularity and Total War: Warhammer, both AMD-sponsored DX12 games.

~~~
bryanlarsen
Tomb Raider doesn't use async compute.

And whether Doom 4 is an outlier or just an example of the difference between
Vulkan and DX12 is yet to be determined.

My conjecture is that the big difference between Vulkan and DX12 is that
nVidia has put more of it's driver engineering magic into DX12 than it has
into Vulkan.

Metal won't have that nVidia driver engineering magic, so I believe that DOOM4
is the best benchmark we have of performance and power consumption for Metal.
But one benchmark can be misleading for a wide variety of reasons.

~~~
jsheard
Tomb Raider had async compute implemented for GCN and Pascal in a post-release
patch, and benchmarks on that patch still pegged the 1060 as ~20% faster than
the 480:

[http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-nvidia...](http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-nvidia-
geforce-gtx-1060-review)

And conversely, the developers of Doom said their async path is currently only
tuned for GCN and will be enabled on Pascal in a future patch.

We've seen from 3DMark Time Spy that Pascal does benefit from async compute,
so there's performance being left on the table there.

------
newscracker
Coming from the same company that proclaimed "can't innovate, my ass" in 2013,
I'll believe it when I see it. I've been very frustrated with the lack of
direction and the lack of flexibility in the Mac lineup.

I'd like to see a complete and modern revamp of the entire Mac lineup, but it
looks like Apple, with a lot of money (even considering the U.S. alone), is
not capable of focusing on Macs anymore. Or more likely, Apple decided that
the sales of Macs wasn't worth spending more on them, while all along
requiring app developers for all its platforms (macOS, iOS, watchOS, tvOS) to
necessarily build their apps on Macs.

It would be nice to get all the Macs being actively improved, but the Buyer's
Guide on Macrumors doesn't give much hope. :(

------
coldcode
Still will have horrible GPUs. I at least want to occasionally play a game and
not just code. My ancient 2009 Mac Pro won't run Sierra but at least I could
sometimes update the video card. The Mac Pro is way out of date. Only the top
iMac is vaguely decent.

~~~
jsheard
Hopefully Apple will at least support Thunderbolt 3s external GPU profile, so
you can attach something like the Razer Core.

~~~
devonkim
I wouldn't expect Apple to make it that easy given their history of extremely
overpriced video cards and custom BIOSes for them. I would be shocked if an
external GPU solution on Macs were supported and sold for less than $700 and
Apple-approved GPUs go for less than 30% mark-ups from aftermarket retail
pricing. So at that point I'd honestly expect an Apple GTX 1080 solution to
cost well over $1500. For that price almost anyone would just buy a dedicated
gaming machine and not bother with the Apple ecosystem that's hostile to PC
gaming by default.

------
mark_l_watson
I would simply like MacBook Airs, 11 and 13 inch screens, which 1080 screen
resolution, and slightly thicker to accommodate the larger battery that would
be required.

I am not the typical user since I do much of my development and long
calculations on beefed up remote servers.

I am almost to the point of being able to use a tablet when I only need one
SSH shell and a Chromebook when I need many shells open and visible reference
material on the screen. My 1080p Chromebook and my iPad Pro are so useful for
getting stuff done that I may never buy a conventional laptop again (I have 3
very functional Linux laptops, which should be sufficient for years).

------
Jyefet
Seems like the addition of the keyboard screen will make things a bit more
complicated if you ask me. I just want a Macbook Air with a retina display...
ugh #IfSteveWereHere

~~~
jschwartzi
Do people even use function keys? The only shortcuts I've seen people use are
Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V. I think this is a step backward because it'll make it
harder to touch-type and there's a possibility that the word processor can
remove your volume controls.

~~~
dingo_bat
I use F3 to search everywhere. Also my byobu actions are all tied to the F
keys. I hate those laptops that default to Fn instead of F and provide no
toggle between them.

~~~
manarth
> _I hate those laptops that default to Fn instead of F and provide no toggle
> between them._

Agreed…Apple don't provide a simple toggle, thankfully there's a free third-
party widget for this (called "FunctionFlip").

~~~
Ankhers
Yes they do. There is a checkbox under System Preferences > Keyboard. Though,
function flip seems to work on a per key basis. While the apple toggle will
toggle all of the F keys.

~~~
manarth
Oh, I wasn't aware of that, thank you.

------
sprite
I hope they let us configure it with 32gb ram and a 2tb ssd. Also hoping that
they release a new external display at the same time.

------
forgetcolor
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the loss of the ESC key. I use Vim and
touch that key all day long. Replacing that with a touch button sounds like a
terrible idea for usability. Clearly nobody in charge at Apple is also a vi
user.

Beyond not removing the ESC key, I want 32-64 GB RAM, a 2TB drive option (or
more), and no more weight.

~~~
macavity23
Typing with my splinted-for-carpal-tunnel hands: for the love of God, if
you're using vim all day, then map Esc to CapsLock or something else near your
home row, or one day you will be wearing these things too.

------
melling
USB-C finally becomes a standard. Hopefully, the PC market joins in so we can
make this a quick transition.

~~~
Vexs
It will take a while (keyboards and the lot are gonna be usb2/3 for some time)
but the newer asus mobos (and I'm amusing others) have a USB-C jack on the
back.

Luckily, usb-c has usb2 pins right in the middle of it, so I don't see it
taking longer than a decade.

~~~
melling
10 years? It won't take that long. Samsung is already starting the switch with
the Galaxy Note, and there will be a billion phones within a few years. Every
new Mac will be USB-C. PC's will push it over the edge when they include C and
legacy ports. Two small additional ports shouldn't be that hard to include.

------
Philipp__
From the outside I think it is fine as it is right now, no need to be thinner,
fix cooling, bump up the hardware and expand battery because of stronger
hardware. Those touch fn keys and everything are again gimmicks and something
that should attract wide masses, for which MB PRO is not!!! It is a machine
for professional work, and Apple should listen to people from industry not
average consumers. For average users there is MB.

------
dudul
I'm kind of surprised by the surprise generated by MacBook Pro resilience on
the market. What were they expecting? That everybody would buy an iPad? Mom
and Dad sure, but professionals? More and more I have the feeling that the
MacBook Pro is the go-to laptop not only in startups but also in more
established companies. That's what I've been given at my past 3 companies, and
almost all devs were using that.

------
eksemplar
I wonder how a thinner model and more powerful graphics will affect heat in
this generation.

I realize this entirely personal, but as long as Apple keeps ignoring heat in
hand areas, I'll keep doing my programming on something else.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Like an external keyboard / screen so you won't get back problems due to
unhealthy posture?

------
valarauca1
Hopefully they'll release a line of either MacBooks, or MacBook Airs using the
iPad Pro's processor (or similar ARM offering). It's more then up to the task
of most users needs, plus far more power efficient then Intel's offerings.

I've been waiting for Apple to make this change for years. It's seems only
logically as it is their processor, in their ecosystem.

------
ommunist
Looks like these changes in design will make older MacBook Pros more expensive
and desirable commodity. "Oh dude - that familiar keyboard for Vi, they are
not making those anymore, and look how many ports". Buy the old one while you
can, these new changes are unwelcome from many perspectives.

------
thomasruns
Sadly it seems Apple keeps putting design/looks above actual functionality
(i.e. letting Jony Ive make decisions). I can (and do) use that top row just
fine right now without looking at it. Changing that to a screen that I have to
look at does not save me time or make things simpler.

------
Unkechaug
Glad to hear it won't have a tapered design. Not sure if it really needs to be
thinner or lighter than the current rMBP but I'm fine as long as it keeps a
keyboard that actually has some depth. Typing on the MBA and new MB is not a
good experience.

------
Rezo
I just hope they don't use the absolutely terrible keyboard design from the
new Macbooks in this. There's virtually no key travel in order to shave off a
few mm. It sort of makes sense in the Macbook segment, but definitely not in a
Pro machine.

------
bluehazed
What's with this fetish of hardware manufacturers making keyboards as terrible
as possible these days? It seems I'm going to be using X220s until the end of
time.

(Not to mention Apple's departure from any sort of replaceable hardware
components)

------
Dirlewanger
Hopefully the omission of mentioning HDMI/Mini DisplayPorts means they are
staying...

~~~
Ralfp
Leaked pics of body parts had only five pors:

\- 4x USB-C \- Minijack

So I would assume apple goes hard for 4 multi-purpose USB-C instead.

~~~
dragontamer
USB-C can be electrically compatible with Displayport. So a cheap 5-dollar
adapter should do the trick.

~~~
Someone1234
Seems like every time an Apple product is release I wind up with a dozen more
adapters...

~~~
Alphasite_
Adaptors really are a stop gap. But yeah, in the short term its a pest.

------
zmanian
TouchId coming to the MacbookPro will bring the secure element from the Iphone
with it.

I'm hoping they also use the secure element to implement SecureBoot of only
signed software. Ideally this could be disabled like in a Chromebook

------
vladimir-y
I wonder will functional touchpad keys work on non Mac OS (Linux, Windows)
since I guess some custom drivers are involved. I'd consider macbook pro
buying, but for Linux. Thunderbolt 3 support is a must.

------
joshontheweb
The touchpad function keys seem a bit gimmick-y to me. I guess I'll have to
see it in action. I quite like the tactile feel when I'm trying adjust volume,
for instance.

------
mmosta
There is also the unaddressed issue of how terrible OLED displays are for
anything persistent (they burn in), consume power when idle and offer no
tactile feedback.

I hope this is a hoax.

------
philliphaydon
Geez people here are talking about power and I'm using a 12" Macbook running
Windows 10 to do .NET development without issue at all.

------
samch
I can probably live without some of the bells and whistles, but please give us
an option for 32GB of RAM (even if it is soldered to the mobo).

~~~
bryanlarsen
Most Intel laptop CPU's are limited to 16GB. A few Skylake CPUs support 32GB
if DDR4 is used.

------
teekert
And please, allow me to open it up and put new/more RAM and an m.2 ssd in
there. (One may hope)

~~~
yoodenvranx
But then the laptop will be half a millimeter thicker and you will see some
screws on the bottom. The horror.

/s

~~~
shinratdr
If you don't give a shit about design, get one of the other million laptops
that are available. The MacBook doesn't try to be everyone's everything.
That's part of what makes it such a good device.

I don't understand why people fail to understand that thinner, lighter and
better looking are things that millions of people want. If that's not you, you
seriously couldn't have more options available.

~~~
rileymat2
You make a good point, and for those people the Macbook should be a great
machine. The disappointment is for the "Pro" market, as in Macbook "Pro".

~~~
kefka
The "Pro" stands for "Problematic".

But yeah, my next machine purchase will not be an Apple. If I need OSX
support, I'll look at the current Hackintosh install lists and go VM.

------
perseusprime11
Not sure if I am that excited with this overhaul. I guess Touch ID is a nice
addition.

~~~
kirkdouglas
It's great on smartphone, but useless on laptop. PC laptops have had
fingerprint scanners since forever.

~~~
shinratdr
That's ridiculous, it's not useless anywhere. What's useless is how shitty
fingerprint readers were before TouchID.

TouchID isn't just a reimplementation, it's a massive technological
improvement that elevates consumer fingerprint readers from gimmicky
afterthoughts to a core part of UX.

"PC laptops had it and it never took off" is a horrible metric to judge
anything. If the technology and implementation is trash, then of course it's
not going to take off. That's why being first to do anything is a meaningless
milestone. Be first to do it well, and you might as well have invented it.

------
graeme
Is the LED strip likely to be blue light? That would be very bad for night
use.

------
intoverflow2
> AMD

Literally all I want for my pro work is CUDA calculation....

------
exabrial
"PRO Laptop" means PROfessional use. PROfessionals work in environments where
wireless bandwidth is a premium. PROfessionals use gigabit ethernet. Please
include it. Please stop the War on Ports™ in your PROfessional lineup.

Consumers use wireless. A dongle is a good choice for them since they won't
likely use ethernet. Here Dongle Driven Development™ is the proper
methodology.

