
USB 3.0* Radio Frequency Interference on 2.4 GHz Devices (2012) - unictek
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/io/universal-serial-bus/usb3-frequency-interference-paper.html
======
midnitewarrior
I ran into this a few weeks ago with a USB 3.0 thumb drive interrupting my Wi-
Fi network communication on my PC.

I fixed this by putting the USB 3.0 thumb drive through the washing machine in
my pants pocket. After being washed, the thumb drive no longer works, but my
wi-fi is working great now, thanks to the washing machine. Problem gone.

~~~
cgb223
I found a similar fix, but instead put my laptop in the wash

USB now works great!

~~~
davidkuhta
Is your USB hitting 24fps?

~~~
fphhotchips
No, but for a few minutes it hit 1000rpm

------
fitzroy
This is definitely a known issue on 2012/14 the Mac Minis (USB 3.0).
[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203729](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT203729)

[https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/usb-3-causing-
interfere...](https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/usb-3-causing-interference-
with-bluetooth.1696604/)

Apple's article mentions USB 3 devices, but the issue is very much with Mac
Mini's ports. Moving the devices further away doesn't help much.

I have a pair of cheap Bluetooth earbuds. They have a range of about 30 feet
with when paired with an iPhone and about 4 feet when paired with the Mini.
Apple's Magic Mouse needs to be within about 4 feet to work as well.

~~~
craftyguy
The article here is from 2012, so not surprising that devices made as early as
2012 would be affected.

------
tonylemesmer
If I have my USB external drive plugged into the port next to the little USB
dongle for my wireless logitech mouse, the mouse doesn't work properly. I have
to shift one of the USB connectors to the other side of the laptop.

~~~
ssijak
Omg, I had the same problem few years back and was blaming Logitech for poor
wifi connection. Now I know..

~~~
mszcz
Same here. I had an issue with Logitech wireless keyboard and mouse. Whenever
a pendrive was plugged in to an USB hub both the mouse and keyboard had their
ranges reduced to about 20cm.

I'm glad I can finally have some closure :P

------
azernik
I was having issues with my wireless mouse getting flaky when my phone is on
my desk; I thought it might be WiFi or Bluetooth signals from the phone, but
this makes me wonder if it's because I plug in to charge over USB.

------
bangonkeyboard
Note that this also pertains to USB-C. This has been a personal nightmare on
the new MacBook Pros.

~~~
ajross
That's because USB Type C is just a connector standard for a cable containing
(among other things) a standard set of USB 2 and 3 signals.

~~~
digi_owl
Indeed. What most people refer to as USB-C is a combo of three, highly
optional(!), specs.

The first is the C plug spec.

The second is the USB 3.1 protocol and cable spec.

The third is the USB power delivery spec.

All of these can be mixed and matched as the OEM sees fit.

~~~
pat2man
You forgot thunderbolt 3...

~~~
digi_owl
That one is outside of the main USB specs, piggybacking on the Alternate Mode
part of the wiring spec...

------
kylehotchkiss
I just saw somebody mention (on an amazon review for an Aukey charger) that
their USB-C car charger was interfering with TPMS system on their car. That's
a little scary. Hopefully they'll get it ironed out soon.

I realize TPMS is not 2.4gz but thought that was relevant to interference
concerns

~~~
vvanders
There's actually a _ton_ of RF interference out there, just that it doesn't
impact enough people on a regular basis for anyone to do anything about it.

The 2 meter radio I have in my car goes _crazy_ with RF(up to S9) when I drive
through the local Starbucks. That said bringing it up with anyone will
probably get you a couple funny looks and not much else.

(things are even worse on HF and the like)

~~~
blattimwind
A number of ham radio bands became unusuable due to interference over the
years.

~~~
LeoPanthera
Notably, powerline ethernet destroys nearly the entire HF range, from 3 to
30MHz. This isn't just bad for radio hams, it ruins shortwave and some AM
radio too.

~~~
vvanders
The hell? (just checked youtube and you're right.)

How did that ever make it past FCC certification? I understand unintentional
QRM from cheap things but that is something that's spec'd out.

~~~
nikanj
HAM operators don't have money. Networking equipment makers do have money.

~~~
vvanders
Oh they do, we just spend it all on our radios ;).

------
puzzlingcaptcha
Logitech Unifying products (which also work at ~2.4GHz) have been affected by
this for a long time too.

[http://support.logitech.com/en_my/article/38032?product=a0qi...](http://support.logitech.com/en_my/article/38032?product=a0qi00000069vCQAAY)

~~~
orbitur
Yep, my "docking station" at work consists of a USB3 hub that I plug in to my
laptop.

Took me a week before I learned that I need to plug in the Logitech wireless
USB thinger directly in to my laptop. Plugging it into the hub made the mouse
partially unresponsive.

------
baybal2
Main points:

1\. Do not place USB ports near antennas, or RF parts 2\. USB allows for
rather large deviation from base frequency, use a drifting frequency source to
spread the emission spectrum 3\. Use shielding where possible

------
SippinLean
This was a big issue for me on my Intel NUC, the wireless keyboard's receiver
dongle was plugged into a USB3 port and received lots of interference.
Installing it into a 1-ft USB extension cable solved the problem completely.

~~~
_jal
I have two of those, and they don't even work well as doorstops. Intel
crippled them in multiple ways, apparently varying by model, to the point
where I'm not even sure it was intentional. But both of mine are useless to me
because the BIOS refuses to boot without a monitor attached[1]. Apparently
that was fixed in some models, but updates made no difference.

[1] One I can sometimes trick with a "headless" DP cable, but even that isn't
reliable enough to stick in a closet and forget about.

~~~
zwerdlds
Just to offer a contrary pov, I have a gigabyte brix that I use as a headless
VM cluster workhorse - worked fine with the headless HDMI dongle.

~~~
_jal
Both of mine are Intel-branded, I forget which models. (They're in a box of
things I've been too lazy to try to sell.)

I really love the form factor - about four of these would replace close to a
kW-worth of hardware I currently run, and could hide in a closet. Maybe I
should try again with known-good versions.

------
codewithcheese
I bought a USB 3.0 Ethernet to USB adapter and it seems since then my Logitech
wireless mouse has troubling hold a mouse down. I've been trying to nail down
the issue. Maybe the interference is the cause. What do you think?

~~~
orbitur
I commented above about this: remove the Logitech dongle from your USB3 hub
and plug it directly into your machine. That was the only way I could "fix"
it.

------
SloopJon
What is the meaning of the asterisk in "3.0*"?

~~~
gtirloni
From the website:

"*Trademarks"

~~~
abrowne
Only Intel seems to do it like that. Weird "house style".

------
kondor6c
I had concerns about RFI when purchasing my LimeSDR[1] USB version. Perhaps
adding more shielding on the back side of the ports and around the unit itself
is in order? I imagine that aluminum could help and it is fairly easy to put
in place.

[1]
[https://myriadrf.org/projects/limesdr/](https://myriadrf.org/projects/limesdr/)

~~~
tastythrowaway
are you saying you were concerned about RFI before you purchased the LimeSDR
or that you've noticed RFI when attempting to use the LimeSDR? is this the one
with the usb-a connector or the usb 3 micro b? Thanks.

~~~
kondor6c
Sorry for the delay in responding, I didn't notice the reply. I was concerned
with it before purchasing because I had heard there was a good amount of RFI
produced by USB in general. I have the USB 3 micro B, I feel that a good
enclosure could mitigate a lot my concerns (and the article seems to back it
up). If you would like any pictures please let me know, I can try to provide
them.

------
wzy
I wonder if this why my new Logitec mouse works poorly in the default wireless
mode but is OK in the Bluetooth mode.

~~~
sliverstorm
That would make sense, as flaky as Bluetooth can be one of its more futuristic
features is supposed to be aggressive frequency hopping to avoid interference.

~~~
digi_owl
Yeah i think the biggest source of flakiness with Bluetooth is when people
pretend it is wifi and stick devices behind various objects but expect the
connection to remain flawless.

Only usb-to-bluetooth dongles are likely to have the signal strength to
penetrate walls. Mobile devices, and in particular earpieces and similar small
devices, are likely to use weaker signals that rely heavily on being reflected
off surfaces to get around obstacles.

And one such obstacle is the human body. Thus putting you phone on one side,
and the ear piece on the other side may results in poor reception. But
standing near a surface, be it a wall, a car, or something else, in front or
behind may allow better reception as the signal can bounce off said surface.

~~~
krrrh
Not meaning to contradict you because most of my experience matches this, but
I would really like to get more detail on Apple’s W1 enchanted bluetooth as
used in AirPods, which consistently work smoothly through 2 or 3 walls.

~~~
cedivad
That W1 is magic. I'm blown away by its range.

------
gooseus
So does this mean that USB 3.0 will be banned from use on airplanes as well?

~~~
Breakthrough
No, only when they come out with fly-by-wireless planes.

(also, when I first wrote this, I was half-kidding until I read
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly-by-wire#Fly-by-
wireless](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly-by-wire#Fly-by-wireless))

~~~
gooseus
Well, I ask because I thought the reason you needed an airplane mode on your
phones was because of radio interference with some kind of equipment... but of
course they do have wifi during the flight so I think it might be related to
take-off and landing procedure were interference is a problem? Or else just
total BS?

~~~
pdelbarba
There are no FAA regulations regarding phones/electronic devices other than a
blanket rule that you can only enable them with the permission of the captain.
The rules regarding cellphone use on planes is from the FCC. They don't want
tubes full of transceivers broadcasting at max power (phones ramp up power to
search for towers where there are none) high above the earth where they can
broadcast over the greatest physical area. At 30k+ft this is not a huge
concern (too high for a noticeable increase in the noise floor) but in
terminal areas they could conceivably tie up bandwidth on every tower in the
city. Whether this is a concern with modern cell towers is up for debate
however.

~~~
ryacko
This doesn't explain cell site simulators well though, they are at the perfect
altitude and power rating to cause interference.

~~~
pdelbarba
I don't really understand. Do you mean cell site simulators (IMSI catchers?)
interfering with aircraft or flying the simulators on aircraft to broaden
their reach?

In the latter case, they would (I'm assuming) be flown with proper high gain
directional antennas instead of tiny antennas mostly hidden inside a metal
tube that attenuates most of their signal

------
pedrosanta
Had this with a 3.0 USB-C to USB-A hub I bought a while ago for the Macbook
Pro. It was really a lil' portable Wi-Fi jamming device.

Advice: buy USB 3.0 accessories with good shielded cables.

------
userbinator
It's been 5 years and no one has managed to turn a USB controller into a WiFi
adapter (nor a WiFi adapter into a USB sniffer), so I'm guessing the signals
are only near enough to intefere and not anything beyond that.

...That would actually be rather fun to see, like
[http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/](http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/)

------
drzaiusapelord
This is from 2012 and old news in the Vive community where we try to use
USB2.0 to avoid these and other issues. There's a few 3.0
chipsets/configs/layouts/whatever that cause serious 2.4ghz interference and
that can affect motion controller latency, wifi internet connections, etc.

Of all the frequencies to interfere with...

------
jdalgetty
This explains why my short stint with an XPS 13 and it's dock was nothing but
headaches.

~~~
compuguy
The solution to fixing the dock issues (partially) is to swap out the wifi
card. The Broadcom card puts out lots of interference (no issues with a Intel
AC wireless card).

~~~
jdalgetty
I returned it and bought a macbook pro.

~~~
nikanj
This is a great example of an Apple-style solution vs a Dell style solution.

Just bought a laptop, and now you need to start hacking it up and changing the
wifi-card so it doesn't cause interference to itself? What next, break out the
soldering iron and go over all the cold joints?

------
333c
Thanks for posting this! Whenever I plug my backup hard drive into my laptop
(it connects over USB 3), my wifi connection drops. I guess I'll have to try
switching to 5GHz during backups…

------
Mister_Snuggles
I once had a similar problem with a Mini-DP to DVI adapter.

I bought a cheap 3rd party one, when I used it I could not use WiFi. When I
replaced the cheap one with an Apple one everything worked perfectly.

------
constantlm
Had an issue with my previous Macbook Air and a USB3 external drive where the
wifi would completely stop working when I plugged the drive in. Sounds like it
might be related to this.

------
feifan
I started getting interference on my wireless keyboard + USB hard drive when
using my USB-C hub … I'd been blaming it on the hub for this whole time.
Thanks for sharing!

------
therealmarv
5Ghz wifi for all the things!

~~~
tiles
I want this, but 5GHz doesn't permeate the walls in my bedroom as well. :( I
figured we'd be living in a dual-band world for quite some time.

~~~
voxadam
I had the exact same propagation issue as you. Fortunately, I found a solution
that's both inexpensive _and_ incredibly effective.

[http://amzn.to/2AgqfsI](http://amzn.to/2AgqfsI)

~~~
blattimwind
A drill bit for wood... for drilling through walls? Wat?

------
mt42or
same weird issue with logitech mouth and usb C port

------
grandalf
It's great to see RFI problem that impact the profits of big firms. Most RFI
is generated because firms cut corners and lazy/crony regulators fail to
enforce FCC part 15 rules.

~~~
zwieback
Do you have any proof for this? I think it's much more likely that low cost
components from off-brand vendors cause issues.

~~~
nickysielicki
[http://www.arrl.org/news/switching-power-supplies-a-more-
com...](http://www.arrl.org/news/switching-power-supplies-a-more-common-noise-
source-than-power-lines-arrl-lab-manager-says)

The issue isn't that the components in these supplies are cheap, it's that
necessary filtering components are not in there at all.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor#Switched-
mode_pow...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor#Switched-
mode_power_supplies)

~~~
grandalf
Exactly. In many devices, including switching supplies, a bit of attention
(and a few very low-cost parts) will bring the devices into compliance. RFI
suppression steps are in the data sheet / example circuit for nearly all
components used in switching supplies, FWIW.

But just as firms want to be able to import steaks that have been made from
cattle raised near polluted foreign rivers, firms import power supplies made
with RFI-suppression parts omitted because someone along the way wants that
$0.15 as profit and US regulators don't care.

Incidentally, a law was passed fairly recently that allows agricultural firms
to remove information about where food items were produced, so quite possibly
the steaks we eat will soon be made from cows who drink the water runoff from
the polluting factories that make the low quality switching supplies.

Our "first world" environmental regulations (food quality, air and water
quality, RF noise floor) are only as good as our regulation of imported
products that commit fraud by selling products that do not comply. By failing
to enforce these laws, US regulators have helped foreign firms cheat their way
into the US market, putting US firms out of business and harming consumers
indirectly by polluting their environment.

I'm not arguing that all of those regulations make sense, just that it is
silly to have laws that we don't enforce when the health consequences and RFI
consequences harm everyone.

------
smegel
Yep, this bit me hard with my NVidia Shield TV. Plug in the portable USB HDD
and the remote stopped worked.

Thankfully Kodi streams from SMB shares extremely well.

