
Ask HN: How's the Paris startup scene? - bandrami
We&#x27;re moving there next year for my wife&#x27;s job. What&#x27;s the startup scene in Paris like? How good does my French need to be? Are there any languages&#x2F;platforms&#x2F;etc. that are popular there more than in Silicon Valley&#x2F;Fairfax County (the places I&#x27;m used to working)?
======
sametmax
Ok, so a lot of people here are comparing the french Startup scene to what it
was before. I understand why, but it's misleading.

Yes, compared to what it was before, it's booming. But it was ridiculously bad
before.

However compared to what's happening in the US, it's still lagging.

Innovation is alright, however investment and risk taking are nowhere close to
the American standard. It's still very meh.

The culture of flexibility is starting to sink in, but again, you will face
the french "lutte des classes" legacy, with old style hierarchies and
management structures.

And of course, even including social benefits, the salary is 2 to 3 times less
than in the valley. But they will publish crazy requirements in job offers.

On the other hand, working in France is sweet. Paris is great city, and the
life style is super nice. And while French people can have a pretty negative
attitude, they won't tell you everything is ok or doable before even checking
they can, or be artificially friendly to the point it's weird. All in all,
it's a lot less pressure.

Best bet is to actually live in France, but remotely work for an American
company.

Plus you can buy actual tomatoes and not red plastic balls.

~~~
Voloskaya
> even including social benefits, the salary is 2 to 3 times less

Yea... no.

Especially if you factor in the cost of life.

Edit: Average salary in SF for tech workers is $142k vs $56k in Paris [1].

Once adjusted for cost of living, Paris is roughly 86k$ [1].

Now, you add all the social benefits, like free health care, retirements etc.
And if you have/plan on having children, you can add free education as well.

All in all it's very far from 2-3 times lower.

[1] [https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2018](https://hired.com/state-of-
salaries-2018)

~~~
sol_remmy
Absolutely. The free healthcare alone makes up for the lower salaries in
France.

My friend is diabetic and in poor health, he would go broke if he lived in
America and not Europe.

~~~
cm2012
I mean, you can pay for amazing healthcare for yourself for 800 a month (10k a
year) or a family (15k a year) in the US. And if you work for a big company
they cover ablot of this. It's pretty easy to calculate in salaries, and
doesn't bridge the gap between countries.

~~~
duxup
I'm not sure those "amazing healthcare" numbers are correct...

------
kjullien
I live in Paris, am french, and have been working at the same startup for more
than a year and some months now.

The scene is very active, any new company these days will always brand
themselves as a "startup" no matter how they function behind the scenes. So
alot of "false advertising" when you postulate, "we're cool and all, we
SOMETIMES allow a day of remote work a week" and typical bs like that.

Your french will need to be good, because it has been proven time and time
again that we are bad as flip at learning languages and if you watch
statistics online you'll see we're worst ranked in the entirety of Europe in
languages.

Used to be that there were some "startup heavy" districts inside Paris, still
is the case, but now we also have the brand new "Station F" that sells itself
(or rather Macron sells as) the next Silicon Valley of Europe.... Never heard
that anywhere...

My SO is currently in internship at station F and she told me the turnover is
pretty crazy, it's more of an incubator that helps new startups get on their
feet, so they'll probably stay around 6 months and then move far away to get
cheap offices. Also apparently their selection process is run by old investors
that have no idea what they are doing and if you simply sell your sh#t
product/service well enough you'll get in. From what my SO told me about 50%
of the startups over there are your typical "marketing" based "services" that
sell you vaporware and invest 99% of their revenue in better "packaging" and
what not, if you know what type of "company" I'm talking about...

Last thing, you'll probably get a good pay since your resume mentions the
words "worked at Silicon Valley", but from my experience, every single HR will
try to f#ck you over when you are being hired, so you better be a tough
negotiator. For reference I currently earn 30k eur (about 21k after tax) a
year as a junior (2 year xp) full-stack dev (mainly node, php and alot of
sysops)

I'd resume by saying that overall, startups in Paris are more akin to those in
SF than the Silicon Valley if you know what I mean. That might be your sort of
thing, but I'm more of a "I want to build the future with my new js framework"
type of guy... So have been considering moving out of France.

~~~
Dannymetconan
Just a comment but 30k for 2 years full experience seems low. I'm working in
another European capital and I'm at 40k for a similar full-stack dev role.

~~~
kjullien
I know it's low and am currently looking for a better job somewhere else
(which I am pretty confident I could get) but these things take time and I
have alot of other stuff to deal with in my life atm. Don't really like my job
right now at all, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do...

~~~
l-p
If you need a better paying job and need it fast, everyone in Paris is looking
for developers, including myself. I'd love a good dev with some skills in sys,
you can easily find my mail by taking a look at my HN profile if you're
interested.

------
cassandrajam
Hi, French here but I don't know much about the Paris scene, more the Lyon
scene but they're probably close.

Regarding the French language: you don't need to be good at it. Just learn
enough of it so you can show the locals you tried, and soon they'll be ok
speaking to you in English. All coding languages are English-based so
everybody knows enough to work efficiently with non French-speaking people.

Like the other users said, Station F is the flagship startup trend in Paris
but there are many startups that don't go there and just operate in Paris
itself, it's up to you to find them using meetups (there are plenty) to
network.

Coding language wise, it's difficult to say but from my experience a lot of
people are into Node.js and Ruby.

Hope this can help, enjoy your time there

~~~
baud147258
French here too; regarding language, it's rather annoying when there's one
only person who don't speak French at work, forcing everyone else to switch.
But if the co-workers are young enough, there shouldn't have too much
difficulty for them to speak English. And regarding code, all the variable +
comment are usually in English.

~~~
arendtio
Yes and it is kinda annoying if there's only one country which doesn't want to
adopt English, forcing everyone to learn their language ;-)

So it is just a matter of perspective. I wonder how the chinese see that
picture.

~~~
cassandrajam
> only one country which doesn't want to adopt English

What? You've never been to Europe have you? Try travelling here and speaking
English in any country other than the obvious champions like Norway / Sweden /
Danemark and you'll come to the crazy realization that people like speaking
their own language.

~~~
frockington
I've never had that experience traveling. Just knowing a few basic greetings
and pleasantries is enough, smile a little bit and most people are forgiving

~~~
cassandrajam
Exactly! Weird how people aren't asshats when you show them you're trying.

------
pandascore
Hi French founder here.

Imho: French start-up ecosystem is booming. Still immature in some aspects.
Really good tech companies, less aggressive in sales than german for example.
Cash is coming really hard from french VCs but also UK and some US.

I consider France a tax heaven for start-up with multiple leverage: \- JEI
(Jeune Entreprise Innovante) status: basically you pay low employer's
contribution \- CIR (Crédit Impot Recherche): you have 30% of you Research and
Development (if it's really R&D) refunded as tax break or cash. \- BPI (Banque
Publique d'Investissement): basically some free money, loans and cash for
equity investement; Really easy if VCs are already onboard. \- Unemployment
law. If you've worked enough you get paid for a period of time to find another
job and creating a company qualify as finding another job.

Other cool stuff: culture, low salary, top tier math/engineer schools, good
business school/MBA, great community but a bit too nice.

Bad stuff: weather in Paris, English is pretty bad (with some progress),
French market too small for most businesses, a lot of uneducated BAs, VCs and
Entrepreneurs. Europe fragmented market, administration is slow and heavy,
overcrowd of start-up recently.

~~~
Jdam
Why do you mention a low salary is cool? Is that a mistake?

~~~
frockington
As a founder it would be, probably not going to attract great talent though

~~~
pandascore
Average salary is lower than the US so a 2M€ fundraising in EU allow more than
a in the US.

It’s not really about attracting talent, that’s really not an issue. Cost of
life is lower but also salary includes social security and all.

------
reacweb
French here, not in a startup but in an international company. Meetings are in
english as soon a non french speaker is there, but during lunch, discussions
are often in french even when non french speaker are present. I know it is not
very polite. I really think you must learn french if you come to work in
France. Even if your french is totally broken, the effort to speak french will
be really appreciated. I have some coworkers who can speak french quite well
but asked me to not tell it at work so that they can continue to prented they
can't. This is also a reasonnable choice. I think you need to have a good
understanding of oral french. People won't care if you make mistakes or if you
write mails in english.

I have noticed that OpenOffice (or LibreOffice) is far less popular here than
in US. I think that IOS and linux are also slightly less popular than in US.

~~~
jonathankoren
> I really think you must learn french if you come to work in France. Even if
> your french is totally broken, the effort to speak french will be really
> appreciated.

This reminds me of the a story an American friend told me while visiting
France. She was at this stand buying something, when the American tourist in
front of her, asked the shopkeeper something in English, and the just
responded back in French. Frustrated, the tourist left. When it was her turn,
she tried to stammer something out in whatever French she could remember from
high school. The shopkeep smiled, and then immediately switched into English
to complete the transaction. ;)

> I have noticed that OpenOffice (or LibreOffice) is far less popular here
> than in US. I think that IOS and linux are also slightly less popular than
> in US.

I don't think OpenOffice is popular at all in the US. I don't think I've
anyone that used it. Linux used to be popular with developers, but it seems
like almost everyone has switched to macs. iOS is popular though.

------
Jonas_ba
Expat who moved to Paris here.

The tech scene is definitely very active, lots of events and meetups to join
and some very active companies with good products around as well as active
VC's in the city. Add Station F and The Family and you got a nice place to
start a company.

Salary wise, I guess you are looking at 40-70k range, depending on experience
and role.

The part where Paris is not that great is moving into the city. Speaking from
personal experience, my gf moved in with me and tried finding a job outside
tech w/o speaking French and it's basically a nightmare, she moved back.
Getting any paperwork done or renting an apartment in Paris is a nightmare as
well.

So overall, Paris is nice, but you need to be French or speak French to enjoy
it, otherwise it might take some time and in my opinion, it's the only thing
that makes Paris fall short of being a good place to move to.

~~~
ousta
please give me one example of a major city where renting an apartment as a
foreigner is not a nightmare lol.. in USA you need a credit score....

~~~
Jonas_ba
I guess any other city than US. I'm fine with paying up front for multiple
months, but I was asked multiple times to provide details of my salary for the
last 3 months, working for the company that employs me, a FR guarantor (which
not coming from France is not that easy to find, I was lucky my company helped
me here) + your salary needs to be 3x rent and there's about 20 people looking
to move in to every apartment 1h after it's posted on any apartment board.

~~~
ousta
same in any major high density city. london is worse. ny is worse. sf is
worse.

~~~
fshaun
My experience in London was much better... sure, a hot market meant you needed
to move fast, but no hoops around local guarantors or months of pay stubs. It
was easier than most local rentals I've done in Boston.

------
dawhizkid
There’s Station F [https://stationf.co/](https://stationf.co/) \- the “biggest
startup campus in the world.” I think FB and Google also rent office space out
of there.

Not sure that’s necessarily proof Paris has “made it” as far as incubating
successful cos, though. AFAIK the most high profile European tech companies
are out of London, Amsterdam, and Berlin.

------
a_lieb
I'm sure there are loads of confounding factors here, but for what it's worth,
a study of tech salaries by Hired.com found that Paris had the lowest cost-of-
living adjusted salary of all cities reviewed, at about $56,000 in San
Francisco dollars[1].

[1] [https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2018](https://hired.com/state-of-
salaries-2018)

------
KeitIG
> What's the startup scene in Paris like?

The start-up scene is currently definitely at an interesting point: really
young and active (people already shared links to Startup studios, you should
have a look at them). The meetup scene is great too.

The salary is still a pity though (compared to the States, Switzerland or
Baltic countries). For a middle developer position, you may be around 40K
euros, which is "nice in France", but not a lot, especially after paying your
taxes.

> How good does my French need to be?

To work, English is fine, to live, it's another problem. French people are
usually really kind to people trying to learn French as it's a hard language.
If you don't care about french, people won't care about you.

> Are there any languages/platforms/etc. that are popular there more than in
> Silicon Valley/Fairfax County

There's a bit of everything, but the Web and Robotics are especially
important.

~~~
catwell
> For a middle developer position, you may be around 40K euros

I won't get into details here but 40k€ before taxes ("brut") for a developer
between junior and senior is not considered that good in Paris anymore. It
would have been decent 8 years ago but wages went up with the increase in
demand. Of course it depends on skills, position, stack, etc...

That being said, you _will_ almost always make more money working as a
freelancer, and you will definitely make more working remotely for a
California-based startup (which may be difficult because of French employment
laws but is still definitely possible).

~~~
mrspeaker
I don't know how much has changed in the last 5 years, but "more" in the US
was at least 3 (over 4 for me) times more. Computer programming (in the
mainstream regard) was a "meh" position: something you do while trying to
become a manager.

I loved it there and would advise anyone to do it (I'm thinking of doing it
again!) - but if money is your goal... I traded an awful lot of "opportunity
dollars" for "opportunity experiences".

------
phnk
> What's the startup scene in Paris like?

There is a lively scene, at least for someone with my interests (data science,
aka. applied statistics and machine learning), with lots of 'incubators' and
related places where startups seem to congregate.

I have been to many events organised or sponsored by the Big Ones (Apple,
Microsoft, Google), plus a myriad of smaller meetups and events sponsored by
all sorts of companies and public sector organisations.

> How good does my French need to be?

Okay (B-) spoken French is enough to interact with most people, but you will
need to understand spoken French much better (A, A+) than you speak it -- it
will make your day _much_ less tiresome.

Note that I would say the same about, say, German if you were to move to
Germany or Austria. There are only few countries in Europe where English is
spoken by such a large fraction of the population that you can almost do
without the local language.

> Are there any languages/platforms/etc. […]

I do not know.

Re: other posts ---

Re: wages, it depends on how much you decide to spend on rent. If both you and
your wife are working, you will be fine, and will be able to afford a well-
above-median lifestyle, assuming that you are not currently in debt and that
the IRS won't strip you of all your assets if you return home.

Re: pollution, again, it depends on where you will settle. I would never, ever
raise a child in Paris. As for myself, I tend to worry more about noise than
pollution, and noise can be awful depending on your street + windows.

(The other significant environmental issue is urban density and parks, or lack
thereof.)

Re: food, I was in the USA earlier this year (near Phillie), spending $40 on
every trip to the organic food supermarket nearby. The cheapest grocery store
in my street has better stuff for at least 4 times less.

Bio note -- I live and work in Paris as well as in Lille (Northern France,
near Belgium). I work in a French/English bilingual environment, which is
rather exceptional in my sector (higher ed).

Meta-note -- Some comments in this thread speak with comically high confidence
of a country that their authors have very obviously not visited, except
perhaps for the few square miles in central Paris that exist almost only for
Chinese and US/UK tourists.

------
maxired
The biggest startups are all either parts of
[https://www.thefamily.co/](https://www.thefamily.co/) or
[https://www.efounders.com/](https://www.efounders.com/) They are quite
impressive in the way they operate

~~~
vadym909
I didn't understand their #1 point "Europe is Toxic"? Does the absence of
startups make a place 'toxic'?

~~~
r3bl
Well, you can click on it and be redirected to a full article that explains
their position:
[https://www.thefamily.co/toxicity](https://www.thefamily.co/toxicity)

------
livatlantis
I'm not in the start-up world personally but from I understand it's all rather
vibrant. I went to Vivatech and was, despite the lack of air in the building,
quite impressed with the sheer number of start-ups present.

Having French language skills is a HUGE benefit and was not too long ago an
absolutely necessity. It's getting better now and you can more or less get by
speaking only English, at least in a professional context. Socially it won't
be that great, although if you're motivated I'm sure you'll learn enough for
everyday conversations rather quickly.

A good website to check out job offers is
[https://welcometothejungle.co](https://welcometothejungle.co) (in French only
unfortunately). LinkedIn is big (how I got my previous job). Also, Hired I've
heared (no personal experience).

~~~
catwell
+1 for Welcome To The Jungle to check out which companies are hiring. If you
are a software engineer who doesn't know the ecosystem and want to get offers,
I would recommend Paris-based [https://www.talent.io](https://www.talent.io)
rather than Hired. Otherwise, direct networking is always best.

------
rb808
You should also investigate living in Paris and working in London. There are a
lot more start ups and financial tech jobs there with salaries much higher.
Its only a 2-3 hr train ride and you might be able to work one week on one
week off, or short term blips of 6m at a time.

------
isawczuk
you can start from this:

[https://stationf.co/](https://stationf.co/) \- startup campus

[https://vivatechnology.com/](https://vivatechnology.com/) \- annual
conference main topic is startups

------
catwell
French software engineer working at startups in Paris since 2010 here.

> What's the startup scene in Paris like?

Booming. A bit too much, if you ask me.

The ecosystem started growing fast when I arrived, basically. In 2011, the
first real startup accelerator (Le Camping) opened. At that time, there was a
very interesting meetup for the Parisian HN community called Paris Hackers,
with very interesting people including founders of Docker (then dotCloud),
Capitaine Train (acquired by Trainline), etc.

Today I would say there are at least 10x more startups and 20x more people
working in them, which resulted in the average level of people in the
ecosystem going down. There are accelerators and incubators everywhere, as
well as very interesting things like eFounders
([https://www.efounders.com](https://www.efounders.com)). Meeetups have grown
unwieldy large (e.g. the machine learning meetup is often having a hard time
finding rooms large enough to fit its 200 - 300 people per session).

As for companies, some startups have become large (Criteo, LeBonCoin,
BlaBlaCar, ...); some are obviously growing fast (Algolia, Aircall,
Platform.sh, ...); some (like Moodstocks where I used to work) have been
acquired by US companies which have set up offices in Paris, among other
things to tap into the well known talent at French research labs in CS and AI
(Google and Facebook in particular). To accompany all this, more VC funds are
opening and rounds become larger and larger.

There is a lot of good to all this, but personally I feel like this is kind of
a bubble and I miss the time, not so long ago, when we were all a bit more
reasonable.

> How good does my French need to be?

It depends on the company. I would say most tech startups do most of their
written work (including chat etc) in English. People might still speak French,
but will switch to English when non-French speakers are around if they want
to.

> Are there any languages/platforms/etc. that are popular there more than in
> Silicon Valley/Fairfax County (the places I'm used to working)?

I would say the obvious one is Python for Web backend. The French (and
European in general) tech community has adopted Python a lot more while the US
was going with Ruby. Some of the larger and older startups use a lot of Scala
as well. Newer companies tend to use Go.

There are interesting startups using less popular stacks, especially
functional programming. What is propably the largest French startup, Vente
Privée, is using some Haskell, and so is
[https://www.fretlink.com](https://www.fretlink.com) (whose CTO is a former
Capitaine Train CTO). [https://margo.com](https://margo.com) is building a
bank from scratch with Elixir and Scala (the CEO is the former CEO of
Capitaine Train). There are a lot of Erlang people around too.

As you may see I mentioned Capitaine Train a lot because this is how the
ecosystem is growing: thanks to disaporas of people from acquired startups (à
la Paypal mafia). A few years earlier it was Exalead
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exalead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exalead)).

If you need more information feel free to get in touch. My email address is on
my home page, which is linked in my HN profile.

------
Rjevski
Related discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17169314](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17169314)

