
Critique of DHH philosophy: "37signals' products tend to be so "opinionated" as to be anti-user" - nickb
http://storytotell.org/articles/2007/09/14/three-little-letters
======
mechanical_fish
Do people who use the word "f-bomb" invariably turn out to have no sense of
humor? Or is it just me?

Am I the only one who actually _laughs_ when a guy puts up a slide with a
dictionary definition of the word "arrogant", admits that the definition fits
his personality, and then (a few slides later) responds to other programmers'
criticisms of his framework with a two-word slide: "f__k you"? Is the concept
of "setup" followed by "punch line" really so obscure? Is the word "f__k"
really so disturbing to your delicate insides?

Am I the only one who is amused by these lines from Linus Torvalds' git talk
(<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8>):

"If you actually like using CVS, you shouldn't be here... you should be in
some mental institution, somewhere else."

"Git is so much better than everything else... because my brain did not rot
from years and years of thinking CVS did something sane. Not everyone agreed
with me... they were ugly and stupid."

"I decided I could write something better than any [source code management
system] out there in two weeks... and I was right."

... despite the fact that Linus is (technically) insulting me and every
programmer I've ever known?

And am I _the only one in the world_ who saw the title of DHH's critique of
the mobile web app ("You're not on a f__king plane!") and laughed out loud,
because it was an _obvious_ reference to Samuel "L" Jackson's famous line from
"Snakes on a Plane"?

(I guess the reference would have been clearer if DHH had written "You're not
reading this Motherf___ing Post on a Motherf___ing Plane", but somehow I doubt
that such a title would have appeased the "f-bomb" crowd. Quite the contrary.)

I'd love to read more critiques of DHH (and Torvalds, and PG for that matter)
that actually _engage his ideas_ , and fewer tone-deaf, catty complaints about
his attitude, his vocabulary, and the fact that not all of his apps are
legendary success stories. If his work is so "anti-user", would you please
give me some examples of similar apps that do a better job, and explain why
you think so? If the web app which works offline is such an amazingly good
idea, would you please tell me which ones you use, or perhaps _build_ one and
then sell it to me?

~~~
felipe
The problem is that David is not Linus nor PG, so that sounds awfully arrogant
coming from him.

The other problem is that David's ideas are not really "his ideas". He simply
recycled XP and Agile concepts from the 90s. I for one prefer to read the
originals (Kent Beck, Martin Fowler, Ron Jeffries, etc...)

~~~
mechanical_fish
Do you think that PG _invented_ Lisp, or the software startup, or angel
investing? Do you think that Linus Torvalds _invented_ Unix?

Yes, Rails is the instantiation of a bunch of XP and Agile concepts. But
here's the thing: concepts don't serve Web pages. Code serves Web pages. And
even Martin Fowler doesn't take the time to write all his own code from
scratch.

I don't respect DHH because his ideas are original. I respect him because he
can convince thousands of programmers around the world to _work together_.
That is not an easy trick - there's a _reason_ why it has been compared to
herding cats.

------
gscott
What I see in this article is that they should make there products be
"everything to everybody" which is impossible.

When you make a change to your commercial web application it is more then just
simply programming in some new functionality and making it live. You can do
that in your free app or if you have a small user base, change away.

The bigger the userbase the more training you have to do, you have to justify
your additions because they will confuse people who will see the new feature
and won't want it and actually don't want to pay for the feature (even though
there monthly fee never goes up).

End users minds are complex, you might think that programming everything under
the sun and making it live would be a huge plus for consumers but it just
isn't so.

~~~
jasonlotito
As a paying customer of 37Signals, I'd hope they actually listen to us.
Frankly, the only reason I still use it is because I've invested time into it,
and simply don't have time to go back to working with something else that
actually has features I need. I end up having to do so much by hand it's
annoying.

And not everything I want is a feature. The system is bug-ridden and doesn't
work. I mean, how is it possible that you enter information into a form, and
the resulting error message doesn't even show. So I email support, and the
result is "Oh, well, you need this information." Apparently, if you know just
the first name of a contact and don't happen to have the last name, you have
to enter something in.

1\. Would be nice to actually know that without having to email support. 2\.
Why not? Seems completely retarded to require something that is unimportant to
the grand scheme of things.

So yeah, adding in these simple features would go a long way.

As for some of the bigger features, again, it makes the application difficult
to use. Seriously, if those products are the foundation, the poster children
of good quality online programming, shit, I'm light years ahead of them.

~~~
gscott
> Seems completely retarded to require something that is unimportant to the
> grand scheme of things.

They should have error messages I agree with you, I was just thinking along
the lines of new features and I assumed that there existing products at least
do what they are supposed to do. I have something similar that I work on
(officezilla.com).

------
Jd
I don't think I think a core critique of 37S should be because they are
'opinionated,' but rather because they are spread too thin. Would be better to
focus on fewer webapps and respond better to customer interest. I'm sure I'm
not alone in saying that I have stopped using Basecamp because much of the
attached and desired functionality is simply not there.

~~~
cstejerean
I've stopped using Basecamp as well as it lacked some necessary features and
it didn't look like they would come anytime soon. On the other hand there seem
to be enough people that love the current product otherwise 37S wouldn't be
making money.

