
Carnival Cruise Lines Hit with $20M Penalty for Environmental Crimes - jazzdev
https://www.npr.org/2019/06/04/729622653/carnival-cruise-lines-hit-with-20-million-penalty-for-environmental-crimes
======
Chardok
"Miami-based Carnival pleaded guilty Monday to six probation violations,
including the dumping of plastic mixed with food waste in Bahamian waters. The
company also admitted sending teams to visit ships before the inspections to
fix any environmental compliance violations, falsifying training records and
contacting the U.S. Coast Guard to try to redefine what would be a "major non-
conformity" of their environmental compliance plan."

So not only did they knowingly dump plastic waste into the ocean, but they
also actively tried to cover it up, implying they were fully aware of being
guilty. And they get a paltry fine with no one going to jail for this
_criminal_ charge?

At this point the judge is just as guilty for allowing this behavior to
continue.

~~~
jimrandomh
No one goes to jail because we're talking about littering. It's just not a big
enough deal. Given the severity of the underlying crime, a $20M fine is
_massive_.

~~~
Eric_WVGG
Covering up environmental compliance violations and falsifying training
records is a much bigger deal than littering. This is more akin the Volkswagen
emissions scandal.

Elizabeth Warren's proposal to prosecute CEOs for corporate misconduct would
be put to good use here. [https://www.vox.com/policy-and-
politics/2019/4/3/18294308/el...](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-
politics/2019/4/3/18294308/elizabeth-warren-op-ed-wells-fargo-equifax)

~~~
rayiner
The falsifying seems to be isolated incidents on two cruise ships. It is
relegated to a third bullet among “other conduct” in the DOJ press release:
[https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/princess-cruise-lines-and-
its...](https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/princess-cruise-lines-and-its-parent-
company-plead-guilty-environmental-probation-violations).

~~~
mikeash
So they falsified records with intent to deceive law enforcement _twice_?
Seems pretty bad.

~~~
rayiner
“They” is random employees on two ships.

~~~
mikeash
Is the company not responsible for the actions of its employees? If so, are
the responsible employees going to jail?

~~~
rayiner
There is no evidence that the company itself knew about or encouraged that
falsification. If there was, the DOJ press release would have mentioned it.
The employees could be prosecuted, but federal prosecutors generally don’t go
after such low level conduct.

~~~
mikeash
And once again, serious crimes are committed and nobody suffers any serious
consequences.

I’m also curious, what is “the company itself” other than its employees? What
part of a company is capable of knowing things besides the people in it?

~~~
tptacek
The obvious distinctions would be between management and line/staff workers,
between executive management and line management, and between executive
management and the board.

The typical implication of "the company" "knowing" things would be executive
management (and, if the conduct actually involved executive managers, the
board).

------
legohead
Should add " _Repeated_ " to the title. They had already gotten in trouble in
the past for dumping in the ocean, and continued to do it...

~~~
bluetidepro
Sadly that's what happens when the "penalty" is a laughable fine in their big
picture.

~~~
justaguyhere
Don't judges give heavy punishment for third strike, to individuals? Why isn't
this applicable to companies (or is it)?

In the case of environmental crimes like this, the every time the fine should
be 10X the previous one, considering our planet is already fucked with climate
change.

~~~
craftyguy
>Why isn't this applicable to companies (or is it)?

Because companies != people, except in the cases where it is convenient for
politicians.

------
perfunctory
Every time there is a discussion about climate change or environment in
general on HN, any suggestion to tackle the problem by reducing consumption
and industrial production is rejected on the basis that it will effect the
quality of life. If cruise trip is your idea of quality of life - I don’t know
what to say.

~~~
diveanon
I agree completely. Cruise ship tourism is disgusting.

Bring your culture with you to insulate yourself from anything that might make
you uncomfortable and pollute at an absurd scale the entire time.

------
xvector
> "The environment needs to be a core value, and I hope and pray it becomes
> your daily anthem."

Strong words from the judge on a fine that's less than 1% of the company's
annual profits and about 0.1% of the company's annual revenue.

These fines need to be a percentage of revenue (with a large floor). Not some
random number that's a drop in the bucket for most corporations committing
these crimes in the first place. As it stands, these fines are (in many
instances) less expensive than correcting the issue that caused the fines in
the first place.

~~~
ekianjo
> These fines need to be a percentage of revenue (with a large floor). Not
> some random number that's a drop in the bucket for most corporations
> committing these crimes in the first place. As it stands, these fines are
> (in many instances) less expensive than correcting the issue that caused the
> fines in the first place.

Rather than fines, it is more effective to withdraw operating licenses
(temporarily) and ask for corrective actions to be taken before operations
resume.

~~~
atourgates
The article mentioned that the judge threatened to stop Carnival from docking
in US ports. That seems like it would have been pretty effective at getting
companies to pay attention.

~~~
bluGill
Shutting them out of the US wouldn't change much. It would stop their Alaska
cruises, but everything else is mostly non-US countries. It is somewhat common
to have fly to some non-US country to get on your cruise already. Those who
drive to Texas or Florida to get one will be harmed, but for everyone else
they are already flying so where they fly to is just a detail.

The real losses are to the US cities (in Florida, Texas, California, and
Puerto Rico) that lose the tourism trade.

Now if other countries like Jamaica get on board things would change fast -
but here is a case of each country acting alone loses, only by acting with
others do they win. (and there is reward for cheating: if everyone else
enforces this and you say you will but don't you get the tourism trade).

Of course if Carnival's customers start caring that will drive changes.

~~~
Kluny
There are plenty of other cruise lines. If one is thrown out, others can
increase their business in the same area. There's no loss to any of those
cities.

~~~
bluGill
Not really, if you follow the ownership chain Carnival owns most of them
somehow.

------
wffurr
I am shocked by none of this after reading The Outlaw Sea _. Regulation of
ocean-going entities like Carnival is a fig leaf, a pretense at civilization
and the rule of law.

_ :
[https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Outlaw_Sea.html?id=...](https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Outlaw_Sea.html?id=zR7tSAAACAAJ&source=kp_book_description)

------
will_brown
Exhaustive list of cruise ship environmental violations and penalties
(although I believe there must be another list of penalties for damages to
reefs by cruise lines, because I recall multiple fines in the past for $10’s
of millions, a this list is noticeably absent high dollar penalties/fines):

[http://www.cruisejunkie.com/envirofines.html](http://www.cruisejunkie.com/envirofines.html)

------
mabbo
I'm reminded of when Walmart opened in a town near where I grew up. There was
some local law they were in violation of and hadn't yet gotten around to
fixing (whatever it was, I forget). They were told "We will fine you X dollars
per day that you are open and in violation".

They said "Sounds good. Send us the bill each month and we'll pay it."

They were just making so much money that it was more profitable to pay the
fines and leave the problem as is than it was to fix the problem.

~~~
dawnerd
Sounds similar to a story I was told about Disneyland and how they just paid
the fines to the city every time they ran fireworks rather than trying to get
permits. No idea how accurate it is but it seems reasonable enough.

------
diveanon
Meanwhile Carnival will not hire you to work on a ship if you have tattoos
because they are afraid of the image it will portray.

Cruise lines and the people that support them with their wallets are an
environmental scourge that perpetuate the worste aspects of tourism.

------
benatkin
It looks like the writer used the first name where the last name is more
appropriate. He's introduced as "Carnival CEO Arnold Donald", and at the next
mention, it's "'I sincerely regret these mistakes. I do take responsibility
for the problems we had,' Arnold told the judge."

------
gesman
$20m penalty is like "you may go but please don't do that". Same effect (which
is none).

------
Paul-ish
> At the time, Princess told NPR that it chalked up the violations to "the
> inexcusable actions of our employees."

As long as they blame employees and not process, is there any reason to
believe things will change?

~~~
mac01021
If they fire the employee who dumps the trash every time trash is dumped, then
at some point they'll either have to not have the employees dump the trash or
else no be able to find anyone who wants to work for them.

But it seems like that's not going to happen either.

------
kadendogthing
This is one of those industries where we're just externalizing costs. Cruises
as a whole definitely need to be more expensive to reflect the environment
costs associated with not just the boats, but the wanton consumption that
happens on these trips -- at sea and and at their destinations.

------
cwkoss
Is it criminal to incentivize vandalism in international waters?

If not, I'd throw a some dollars at a gofundme to have every Carnival Cruise
drone-sprayed with rotting fish guts until they go out of business.

~~~
diveanon
I prefer Bill Burr's approach of just sinking them.

