
Launch HN: Promise (YC W18) – Cost-effective, more humane alternative to jail - dfrappier
Hi HN,<p>We are Phaedra and Diana of Promise (<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;joinpromise.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;joinpromise.com&#x2F;</a>). We provide a cost-effective, more humane alternative to incarceration.<p>We work for government agencies to monitor and support individuals who would otherwise be in jail or who are under some form of community supervision.<p>There are almost 2.3 million people behind bars in the US and another 4.5+ million people on probation or parole. Almost 450,000 people are in jails pretrial, meaning they have not been convicted of the crime for which they were arrested. The majority of these individuals remain in custody because they cannot afford to pay for their release. This is costly for governments and devastating for the individuals who remain in jail who can lose their job, housing, children and more while incarcerated. Believe it or not, many of these people never even end up being charged with or convicted of a crime.<p>Phaedra had a background in politics (she ran the South Bay Labor Council) and Diana had a background in law (as a criminal defense attorney and co-founder of the Ella Baker Center). We then worked together at a non-profit (Green For All), in the music industry (for the musician Prince) and in technology (at Honor). We decided to start Promise because we saw a huge need for innovation in the criminal justice system and wanted to use what we had learned in tech to build something that actually helps change lives for the better and can scale.<p>Here&#x27;s how Promise works: We work in partnership with governments who release people from jail on condition that they work with Promise as an alternative to being in custody. We also provide support to people under community supervision. We use an intake assessment to create an individualized plan that is based on the risks and needs of each participant. We provide each participant with an app and a wearable tracking device (only when required). Our goal is to always use the least restrictive means necessary and to use a step-up, step-down approach: that is, we reduce restrictions when possible and increase only when needed. While there are still restrictions on freedom, participants will no longer be in custody so that they can return to their jobs, families, and communities until their case is resolved or they no longer have any required supervision.<p>We then monitor and support participants to help them succeed with their plans. We provide an intelligent calendar of their obligations (court appearances, drug testing, substance abuse treatment, etc.) and adaptive reminders to help them meet these obligations. Research and experience have shown that simple intervention like this does work: for example, it makes people more likely to get to court. We also provide referrals and support so participants can receive services that may help (job training&#x2F;placement, housing, counseling, etc.). We provide reports to courts or other involved parties as needed. We also allow the participants to easily view their upcoming obligations, overall plan and progress on their plan.<p>We believe this approach can support participants&#x27; needs, keep communities safer, and provide a cost-effective and more humane alternative to incarceration in the US. Our business model is simple: we charge governments a fee. Incarceration is so expensive that we can make a profit and still save governments—and ultimately tax payers—money.<p>We would love to get feedback on Promise and in particular to hear about your ideas and experiences in this area, whether working in government agencies, selling to such agencies or as individuals who have been impacted by this system. There is a huge amount of work to be done here!<p>Thank you!!
======
cubano
I've been to at least 10 different county jails and to Florida State Prison
twice, and I feel like I know already what you're biggest problem is going to
be...

It's going to be the one(s) that screw it all up for the many.

All it's going to take is one criminal in your program to go out and kill and
rob an elderly couple for society to force the politicians to end your noble
and well-meaning experiment and put those people back behind bars.

I've seen it over and over in my many years of being locked up...programs
designed to give inmates and convicts a shot at bettering themselves are
totally abused by a few totally selfish and uncaring dickwads that actually
enjoy the fact they just fucked it up for everyone else.

But regardless of that, I think your program holds great promise and wish you
nothing but success with it.

~~~
mattigames
Yep; for experiments like this to work you need a judicial system with a level
of pragmatism that doesn't exist in the US; that is, to give some very high
value to the ability of the non-repeated offenders to go back to e.g. support
their children economically or go to college, etc; so any outliers who do go
back to crime are seen as outliers and the work is done towards spotting those
criminals earlier in the experiment rather than closing the experiment all
together. But like I said is a level of cool-headedness uncommon in the US
judicial system and in general a country where many politicians win elections
through emotional manipulation.

~~~
ljm
Or not necessarily pragmatism, but a shift in focus from overbearing justice
(commonly seen as retribution and punishment, or more generally some kind of
revenge) to rehabilitation and giving people the resources they need to get
out of crime, rather than ostracizing them or putting them to manual labour
for pennies an hour. In this sense Promise is being pragmatic because it can't
transform the American attitude to crime all by itself (the punishment of
which doubles up as a profit motive for the prison industry), but it can
attempt to make one aspect of it less shitty. However, it is miles away from
ideal.

Coming from a European perspective I find it utterly perplexing that a society
would not only accept high rates of incarceration but also support venture
capital to optimize that status quo. Because that's what is being offered -
making it affordable for poor people to go into custody, as opposed to
lobbying against private prisons and extreme sentences for trivial crimes, and
disentangling this horrific 'tough on crime' narrative that has taken hold
over the past decades. How on earth is it positive to see an opportunity for
profit in all the people being locked up before trial and to what end will
that investment be pursued?

It's fascinating that many viewpoints from the US are so exceptional in their
notion that they completely ignore how systems in other countries tackle the
problem without generating a criminal underclass.

~~~
smoyer
I'm a US citizen and was about to part exactly this ... we need fewer people
in jail period. That probably applies to most if not all of those who Promise
would help so I can't help thinking this is simply putting lipstick on a pig.

EDIT: I should also note that it's nice to see teams are trying tackling to
tackle harder social problems.

~~~
bobthechef
> we need fewer people in jail period

What does that mean? How do you know we have too many? Are you claiming we
have many innocent people who haven't broken the law in jail? Or that some
laws prescribe incommensurate penalties for certain crimes?

~~~
rbobby
> How do you know we have too many?

The US leads the world in incarceration, with a rate of 737 per 100,000.

Canada has 438 per 100,000... and on virtual all measures Canada and the US
are very similar (old joke... What is a Canadian? An unarmed American with
healthcare).

Amazingly the UK is 148 per 100,000, Scotland 134, N.Ireland 79, Ireland 78,
and Australia 168.

~~~
adanto6840
What are the rates of crimes committed per 100k population in the US and the
countries you mentioned? Obviously that's a loaded question, but just trying
to illustrate the point -- perhaps the US criminal justice system is just as
good (or possibly even better) at investigating, arresting, and jailing those
who commit "crimes"?

Is the problem really with the criminal justice system, or is it with the
laws, perhaps even just the sentencing laws?

FWIW I am firmly against, disgusted by, the extremely elevated incarceration
rates in the US -- especially those incarcerated for "non-violent crimes" \--
but I tend to think that the issue is more with the laws (sentencing, plea-
bargaining, due process, etc) than it is with the prosecutors themselves.

Of course there are bad apples too, from judges to prosecutors to defendants
themselves, but I tend to see more issue with the disconnected legislation
than I do anything else.

Heck, the US AG wants to crack down on marijuana -- despite numerous state
ballot initiatives legalizing it at state levels. Meanwhile, there's a serious
opioid epidemic which is killing thousands of people; 'crackdown' is failing
to address that problem. I know, let's crack down on marijuana too -- throw
them all in jail, that's the way to save lives. It just blatantly defies logic
or basic reasoning. :(

~~~
irrlichthn
> perhaps the US criminal justice system is just as good at investigating,
> arresting, and jailing those who commit "crimes"?

Having worked with statistics around this issue and compared them with many
other countries, I don't think this is the case. The USA seems to have two
problems: A very, unusual high crime rate (about 10 times higher than in the
country where I live for example!) and by comparison, a very harsh
jurisdictional system. Combined, you get the result you have.

------
JudasGoat
I think I might have a unpopular perspective but when I was incarcerated for 2
years 11 days it gave me a chance to get away from drugs for that period.
Although the environment hardly supported addiction recovery, the high cost
and irregular supply made drug use unsustainable. If I had made parole and
gotten out after a year, I would have been right back into hard drugs. Allow
me to add that I had a pretty much uninterrupted 30 or so year addiction to
opiates.

~~~
cuchoi
Wow, I never thought about prisons as commitment devices for drug addicts.
Thanks for sharing your experience.

Despite the usefulness of prison in your case, there is plenty of research
showing that alternative means to incarceration are better for everybody (for
the offenders and the taxpayers). For example, this paper shows a drop of 40%
in recidivism for electronic monitoring instead of incarceration:
[http://www.nber.org/papers/w15602](http://www.nber.org/papers/w15602). Also,
there is a lot of evidence from drug courts. This is one example:
[https://crimesolutions.gov/ProgramDetails.aspx?ID=70](https://crimesolutions.gov/ProgramDetails.aspx?ID=70).

I am not affiliated with Promise.

~~~
danvayn
Good comment. I was going to say that while prison might work for some with
addictions, it certainly does not teach them anything about staying away from
drugs. In many cases recidivism is high because these people who remained
sober for the duration of their sentence get out and fall right back into it
within a few months. They might have trouble finding jobs due to a record, or
maybe they were incarcerated long enough that they lost old, good connections
or have bad ones they made while incarcerated. It might just be a matter of
time until they fall back into usage as an escape mechanism.

There's just very many ways that going to prison hurts a person and very few
ways that helps, and only for the right kind of people too (ex: longterm drug
abuser with a lack of self control relinquishing his rights in this case).

------
zestyping
I'm intrigued and inspired by what you are trying to do!

Looking into the future, I have a worry that governments will be able to back
Promise into a corner. When many participants are dependent on Promise for
their freedom from jail, won't governments be in a position to dictate
Promise's feature set? I fear that governments will demand ever more intrusive
monitoring and draconian control over participants' lives, and Promise will be
unable to say no, as the alternative would put them all back in jail.

In other words, the bargain of surveillance instead of jail time may start out
being a big win, but it seems at risk of getting worse over time with pressure
only in one direction (towards ever-increasing surveillance and control) and
no countervailing pressure in the other direction. Does Promise have ways to
generate that countervailing pressure? Does it have guiding principles as to
what kinds of surveillance and control it considers ethical? Does it have
bright lines that it will not cross? Have you thought about how Promise can
gain or wield the political power it needs to stay true to its principles?

Thanks.

~~~
Cyberdog
You're not wrong, but there are absolutely massive amounts of government
intrusion and surveillance that I personally would accept as an alternative to
rotting in jail.

~~~
panic
The choice isn't just between rotting in jail and something like Promise,
though. Many of us on this forum could pay bail and face neither. That's the
fundamental injustice here, I think.

~~~
Cyberdog
Are you saying the injustice is that some people can afford to bail out and
some cannot? Or is the injustice that the bail concept exists in the first
place?

If the former, then what are we going to do about it? Enforced income equality
programs have been quite disastrous in human history. If the latter, well,
yes, it's a weird way to get around the fact that the state technically cannot
be locking people up that aren't convicted of a crime yet. And for the poor,
it very well may be that the choice _is_ between jail and something like
Promise.

~~~
phaedradiana
We are pragmatic founders. We spent most of our professional like advocating
for these changes and realized we wanted a more immediate solution. We are
also worried that the absence of bail can actually lead to more incarceration.
Kentucky got rid of private bail but the system is still fundamentally unjust.

------
rsweeney21
I want this to be successful more than any other startup I've seen in recent
history. Our reform system is so outdated and broken.

Do you have a plan for how to help addicts and people with mental illness? Or
is that outside your scope?

~~~
sizzle
force drug addicts to get on Naloxone for lower recidivism rates and better
outcomes.

[https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/inmates-
heroin_us_56966...](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/inmates-
heroin_us_56966f64e4b09dbb4bad6ab6)

~~~
troncjb
Suboxone is the one you are thinking of. Naloxone is used to reverse the
effects of an OD. Unless they are functionally similar and I am misinformed.

~~~
sizzle
Naloxone is used to curb drug cravings as it blocks opiod receptors so you
can't get high when you take it and thus weaken the reward pathway circuit in
your brain's reward system. This has been studied in prison systems to lead to
less repeat offenders for drug related offences (dui) when given naloxone in
prison. I wish I could find the study.

------
ceejayoz
It sounds like this is a for-profit business. I'm very leery of the trend
towards private prisons. Was a non-profit considered here?

Are participants required to have a smartphone to install the app to be a part
of the release program?

~~~
phaedradiana
We agree on general concern about for profit prisons. Diana and I met working
at a non profit. She founded the Ella Baker Center and I worked in the labor
movement. However, we created a company with those values because we believed
this put us in the best position to scale the solutions we believed in.

~~~
alex_young
This is a pretty weak line of reasoning IMHO. There are plenty of non-profit
organizations which scale very large and address large societal problems. For
instance, most hospitals.

Why couldn't the same thing be done to solve this problem, especially given
your concern for eliminating perverse incentives in the justice system?

~~~
module0000
Are you offering hospitals as a good or as a bad example?

------
treis
I'm conflicted about this for a few different reasons:

(1) I am always concerned about start ups with hugely impactful products that
seem to lack rigor around their technology. This one will be part of
determining who gets what care or who gets sent to jail. Where's the evidence
that Promise will make this decision better?

(2) It seems like streamlining and increasing the ability of governments to
monitor parolees. Is a warrant going to be automatically issued to someone
breaking curfew because they're visiting their sick mother?

(3) It lowers the barrier into the criminal justice system. Promise says they
are designed to help the criminal which makes it more attractive for judges to
place people, especially juveniles, into the system.

It seems like the founders want to make a positive impact on society, but
there's a whole lot of slippery slope and other ethical issues here.

~~~
jaredhansen
_> (2) It seems like streamlining and increasing the ability of governments to
monitor parolees...

>It seems like the founders want to make a positive impact on society, but
there's a whole lot of slippery slope and other ethical issues here._

Only on HN is app-based remote monitoring seen as potentially worse than being
IN JAIL.

~~~
ceejayoz
> Only on HN is app-based remote monitoring seen as potentially worse than
> being IN JAIL.

That's a bit of a strawman - there are other ethical issues at play here. Some
people don't have smartphones. Others will have theirs lost/stolen/broken. Do
they go back to jail?

~~~
Mononokay
Is it a local thing to have incredibly cheap smart devices? I can go a town
over in the rural US and get a cheap smartphone for like $30 with a prepaid
plan. Granted, I can't imagine it would be an amazing experience to use, but
far better than jail.

~~~
ceejayoz
$30 is a lot for some people, especially those facing jail. Then there's
paying for data. The app might not work on the older Android version that's on
a $30 device. People with intellectual disabilities may struggle with a mobile
phone.

None of these things should wind up determining whether a person goes to jail
or not, but that's a risk here.

~~~
caf
Seems to me like there's a lot of people lying between "Can't afford $30
phone" and "Can't afford $5,000 bail".

------
IAmEveryone
There’s this story of a private company working with big retailers to offer
shoplifters some useless online “tutoring” instead of calling the police.

The shoplifters, often the poorest of the poor, had to pay hundreds of dollars
for this “leniency”, often without knowing that the police wouldn’t even have
come for the low-value crime.

Don’t do that.

~~~
dfrappier
Agreed. That sounds awful.

------
phaedradiana
We very much appreciate the support and pushback. Both make us better. We have
to present at Demo Day soon. We are not ignoring the comments, we just have to
prep! We will be back online later today. Thank you.

Phaedra and Diana

------
rebuilder
I'm conflicted. I once spent 200 days in prison as a conscientous objector. As
far as prisons go, it was about as humane as it gets. It was a so-called "open
facility" in a Nordic country. We had rooms with doors that were locked st
night. We worked making traffic signs in the daytime, for which we were paid a
little, and the work was, in principle, voluntary. We could leave the prison
compound for an hour each day for a jog or walk in the woods. It would have
been easy to just not come back. It would also have been stupid. No-one ran
away in the time I was there.

For all that it was barely even a prison, I resented it, and still do. Taking
a person's freedom is wrong. It may be necessary for society to function, but
it is still wrong. At best it's the lesser evil. And even if there was no
prison, no walls, I know I would resent being told what to do in the way your
system seems to require.

That said, what you're proposing still seems like it would be less bad than
prison, especially prisons as I understand they are in the USA. Of the inmates
I knew, practically all were addicts of some description. One young man could
not grasp the idea that 110 millimeters is 11 centimeters when I tried to show
him with a ruler. I don't imagine them being in prison helped very many of
them, or society, in any meaningful way. The one person I felt might not
return had apparently quit crime well before but been convicted of some old
misdeeds when someone ratted him out.

So it sounds like your ideas are better, at least. Still, I can't say much
more than that I think you're entering an enterprise that does evil in the
name of the greater good. It probably needs doing, and it sounds like you're
trying to reduce harm. I can't applaud you, but I hope you can accomplish your
goals and live with yourselves, given the world you're entering.

~~~
bobthechef
> Taking a person's freedom is wrong. It may be necessary for society to
> function, but it is still wrong.

I want to be charitable here, but it sounds like you're saying that it is
unconditionally wrong, as in, prison is simply wrong. If you are, then, sorry,
but that is utterly insane. If someone commits a serious crime, that person
deserves serious punishment, and of serious punishments, imprisonment for a
commensurate period of time is entirely appropriate. For the more egregious
crimes, imprisonment is insufficient (think of Breivik who easily deserved the
death penalty). What the appropriate measures against drug abuse are, I don't
know.

~~~
rebuilder
I don't see what deserving one thing or the other has to do with it, honestly.
Retribution is something the justice institutions have been slowly moving away
from for centuriea now, but unfortunately remnants of eye-for-an-eye still
linger.

And yes, my personal judgment is that taking a person's freedom may be
necessary in sone cases but is always a violation. If we want to keep putting
people in prison, we need to bear that burden, not pretend it doesn't exist.

~~~
tropo
One of the reasons the government punishes criminals is so that private
individuals are less likely to punish criminals. We're trying to prevent an
endless cycle of revenge. The victim, or their family, needs to feel that the
criminal has suffered. Private punishment is not bound by any restriction on
being cruel and unusual.

------
memmcgee
I don't see any indication of Promise being a non-profit. It seems to me that
you're just trying to break into the prison-industrial complex. I am doubtful
this is much better than current for-profit prisons considering you still
require prisoners in order to make money. Come back as a non-profit or not-
for-profit and then maybe you can change something.

~~~
moxious
Why so much faith in non profits? If they have some specia sauce I’m not sure
what it is. They still require the prisoners in order to exist and grow. And
economically there’s this old joke...they’re not for profit, but they’re not
for loss either.

~~~
hnzix
_> Why so much faith in non profits?_

Perverse incentives. If a company's profit is linked to higher incarceration,
they are incentivized to make the problem worse, not better.

This doesn't make all non-profits magical paragons of virtue, or all for-
profits evil. It is simply an indicator.

------
mrguyorama
As a company that will make money from people committing crime, what is your
incentive to reduce crime or otherwise prevent repeat offenders?

~~~
dfrappier
We really appreciate this question because we believe that the incentives in
the criminal justice system are often wrong. Our goal is to get people out of
jail and keep them out. Our program is set up for the purpose of getting them
out of custody. We will also evaluate ourselves based on how we do at reducing
recidivism.

~~~
mbel
You appreciate the question so much that you avoid the answer?

What is your business incentive to reduce crime rate? How reduction of the
crime rate is making your business more profitable?

~~~
jhull
What is a dating websites incentive to couple people up? They have seemingly
reverse incentives too. The better a dating website is the less potential
users it might eventually have.

~~~
nrmitchi
I don't think that anyone here is trying to say that this is the only industry
in existence that has reverse incentives (in that their success could limit
their future).

I think it's a bit of a stretch to compare online dating to an industry which,
quite literally, destroys peoples lives and often unfairly targets
disadvantaged groups.

------
everdev
This is a big problem that needs creative solutions.

However, I'm nervous about a for-profit, investor-backed company getting into
rehabilitation and criminal justice. When criminality becomes a profit center,
these supporting companies are disincentivized to reduce crime or penalties
for crime.

I can imagine companies like this will participate in lobbying efforts to keep
recreational drugs criminalized as that's a huge population of offenders who
will needs exactly these services.

I'd have a much better feeling if it was setup as a non-profit.

~~~
bobthechef
Agreed. Also, consider that growth, significant potential to scale, and high-
end revenue are factors distinguishing startups from other kinds of
businesses, and to be thinking of scale in this context is disturbing and
flippant. This is not an area where "startup thinking" is appropriate.

------
politician
This sounds extremely dystopian - perfecting surveillance technology in public
spaces, normalizing a lower caste of unfree people, establishing a private
market precedent for the cradle-to-grave nanny state.

Please stop.

------
will_brown
Do you have any evidence to show in Jurisdictions where GPS is added as a
condition to pretrial release that: a. Cost of bond went down; b. More
defendants were granted release; or c. Less defendants violated conditions of
bond?

It’s pretty common to have private contractors providing pre-trail release and
probation services (at least in Florida) and I think you will find the
opposite.

Take your contract for GPS Tracking, that won’t help anyone get bond who isn’t
entitled to bond, and it won’t make bond cheaper for those that can’t afford
it. GPS Tracking is just an added expense, it’s a condition of Pretorial
release that: a) makes the contractors money and b) results in revocation of
bond for violations of Pretrial/probation/parole conditions.

In my experience all these private contractors have exclusive contracts and
are incentivized for people to violate (leading to charges, additional
penalties, costs, etc...), for example:

-traffic schools

-DUI schools/programs

-DUI boots for cars

-DUI ignition breathalyzers

-drug testing facilities

-drug courts/treatment facilities

Ive seen more than a few HN discussions on the issues with privatized prisons.
Same with the types of contracts/services I listed above, they ensure all
their privatized services are added as conditions of release to the detriment
of defendants, including financial burden and likelihood of violations so they
end up right back where they started.

------
datamingle
What happens when Promise loses an individual? Who pays the cost for them to
be tracked down and returned. I'm assuming existing systems will be used such
as bounty hunters to do this job.

~~~
dfrappier
We will not use bounty hunters like bail bond companies. We will have a plan
with the local jurisdiction that we are in. That will be county specific but
will involve us trying to get them back on calendar if they miss a court date,
but ultimately the Sheriff or local law enforcement picking them up if they
have an outstanding warrant.

~~~
UncleEntity
> ...but will involve us trying to get them back on calendar if they miss a
> court date

Isn't that inherently what bounty hunters do?

------
gwbas1c
According to your post, one fifth of prisoners are awaiting trial.

Our constitution says that people have the right to a speedy trial.

Shouldn't we be working to make the trial process faster? Assuming that these
individuals don't go to jail, I find the "promise" approach unethical for
someone who is innocent.

~~~
Cyberdog
> Our constitution says that people have the right to a speedy trial.

Indeed; that's part of the Eighth Amendment of the Bill of Rights. Also the
Tenth Amendment states:

> Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel
> and unusual punishments inflicted.

And boy, is this Amendment violated good and hard constantly. Let's not even
talk about the First and Second.

Our governments are very good at ignoring their own laws.

~~~
bobthechef
What's are some examples of cruel and unusual punishment in the American
justice system?

~~~
Cyberdog
As a strong libertarian, I have some pretty… unconventional ideas in that
regard. Suffice it to say that I think _any_ imprisonment of non-violent or
non-property-crime offenders is abhorrent.

But I understand this viewpoint is nutso in the eyes of many. Still, I think
most can agree, especially the wealthy Silicon Valley liberal types the tech
industry is rife with, that things are out of control with the current state
of the "justice" system.

------
jedberg
I love what you're doing, I love your mission.

My biggest concern is the Prison Guard Union. For example, in California, they
are the most powerful political group in the state. California is #41 in
spending per student, but #1 in spending per prisoner.

How will you break through the prison union, when what you offer ostensibly
reduces the need for prison guards?

------
Mononokay
This feels like one of the more ambitious startups YC has funded in a while, I
love it.

Has Promise been used in a real-world setting yet? I'd love to see the
results.

~~~
dfrappier
We are in our first pilot. Will update when we have more results.

------
sharpercoder
I was watching an interview of the most famous criminal lawyer of my country.
He raised a family of four, they all became lawyer too. The lawyer, in his
post-war lifetime, became wildly successful in defending criminals on the edge
of society; Gypsies, high-profile criminals, et cetera.

In this interview, he was asked what a good justice system would look like.
His reply was that real justice would involve a large factor of "making things
right" for the victims. Not just pointless punishment (while punishment was
certainly a factor he'd see in the system), but _focused_ towards "making
things right". If you steal, pay back the stolen goods manyfold. If you
sexually abuse, do time in help centers to assist victims (obviously well-
supervised). If you kill, help the family financially and do time in
aftercare.

The whole focus on justice in his point of view should be to ease the burden
of the act for the family/society afterwards. To me this is a really great
view of fixing any wrongdoing. I hope Promise will focus on this facet as
well; it would be beneficial too. Public support will definitely increase as
well as the lives of victims.

~~~
majos
> If you steal, pay back the stolen goods manyfold.

Setting things up so that you profit when someone is convicted of stealing
from you seems like a dangerous incentive.

------
efields
> We work in partnership with governments who release people from jail on
> condition that they work with Promise as an alternative to being in custody.

What does it mean for the person to "work with Promise?" Are they performing a
service or labor, or simply a subject of the administration protocols
mentioned later? In other words, Promise offloads the management of the
individual while they await trial from local gov't to a third party?

~~~
dfrappier
They will not be performing any service or labor for Promise. They will work
with our team. Our team with get them set up on the app, do an intake to refer
them to appropriate support services, work with them to make sure they know
about court dates and other obligations, etc.

~~~
efields
Case management! Got it.

------
vmconfig
The wife worked on a similar So. Cal government program for approx. 4-years in
the late 90’s. Designed primarily for helping people with mental illnesses who
had been arrested (a large % of jail population). My observation was that the
program was very effective, but limited in scope due to funding. If
interested, can put you in touch with her to discuss.

~~~
dfrappier
That would be great. We very much appreciate it. You can email us at
founders@joinpromise.com

------
sitkack
What is your sales pipeline like? Who is your initial target? I have _no_
experience in this area, but I think very small muni that dont have
facilities, that have to contract out to counties or other towns could be a
first good target. Esp places that know the burden that incarceration places
on the rest of the people and services in those towns.

Could it also be applied to halfway house use cases? I assume you will require
the user to carry a smartphone and it will have geofencing, in and out. I also
assume you will be using face recognition to semi-randomly authenticate the
user.

This is the first YC HN post I have ever opened, I think this is great idea,
esp because most of these businesses are started by unethical leaders
motivated purely by profit.

~~~
dfrappier
Thank you for opening and sharing your thoughts! We have been speaking with
sheriff departments, district attorneys, public defenders, probation
departments, judges and other parts of the criminal justice system. They have
slightly different motivations but most agree that Promise could benefit
individuals going through the system. Thank you for your idea. We will
definitely look into that.

------
rsp1984
I'm not convinced. Here's why:

Punishing criminals with jail time not only makes sense from the standpoint of
protecting the community from bad elements. It also serves two other purposes
that are often overlooked:

    
    
      1. Retribution for the crime committed. This is especially important if the crime had one or several clear victims.
    
      2. As a deterrent / warning for other potentially criminal actors.
    

Point 1 is important to support righteous citizens' trust in the state of law.

Point 2 is important to instill respect for the state of law in everyone else.

I am aware that this is not in line with more progressive / liberal opinions,
but I haven't come across any good alternative models so far.

~~~
jedberg
I think their focus is on people who are pre-trial and haven't been convicted
yet, so neither of your points apply to those people.

Their other focus is on parolees, so your points don't really apply to them
either.

~~~
rsp1984
Depends on your definition of being "in custody".

 _Here 's how Promise works: We work in partnership with governments who
release people from jail on condition that they work with Promise as an
alternative to being in custody._

Not sure it only applies to pre-trial people or parolees. A clarification
would be welcome.

------
jstarfish
This is awesome.

It's a low-tech solution to solve a common social problem. It could actually
improve something for the lives of the plebes, as opposed to exploiting them
through more advanced surveillance algorithms or other Machiavellian
annoyances.

I worked on a rural drug court that did a lot of pretrial diversions; if we
jailed every offender we'd have been living in a ghost town. Prison does not
help the lives of people predisposed to addiction and due process is often a
joke, especially when the charges are weak. Anything you can do to mitigate
this in places with less progressive judges is an improvement.

Best of luck to you!

------
dev_throw
This sounds very (pardon the pun) promising. The prison system in the US is
skewed to punishment rather than rehabilitation and utilizing tech
(intelligent calendar) will help reduce prevent people missing court dates. My
only concern is how will Promise be audited? Is there going to be some way of
being transparent while also protecting private information?

------
newsat13
Please don't be discouraged by pushback! The immediate reaction of a crowd to
anything new/different/radical is almost always negative.

~~~
gt_
There’s definitely nothing new or different about privatizing criminal
justice, and considering they are merely adding a middle-man to probation,
it’s not radical either. This has been done many times. It results in cruel,
unjust behavior hidden from public scrutiny and regulation. America has enough
of this garbage as it is.

~~~
dang
Here you've crossed into name calling of the sort the site guidelines ask you
not to do. Edit: actually you managed to break three guidelines: that one; the
one about shallow dismissals; and this one: "Please respond to the strongest
plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier
to criticize."

It's fine to disagree or be critical in a substantive way, as many others in
the thread have done. But it's not fine to arbitrarily reduce a subject to
something ugly and trivial in order to demean it. In addition to being
uncivil, that's off topic, since when you do that you're not engaging with the
actual thing.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

(Edit: I originally said "What's not fine is to spew reductionist bile"—but
this also breaks the site guideline against name calling. Sorry! Not always
the easiest rule to avoid breaking.)

~~~
gkya
I'm unable to spot the name calling you're referring to. The comment is on
topic indisputably, and no reductionism is visible to me. You're being unjust
to the commented. He's not uncivil at all too. It seems to me that you're
failing here as a moderator in fostering discussion with diverse viewpoints.

~~~
dang
"this garbage" is obviously name calling in the sense that
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
uses the term.

The comment makes two reductionist moves: it casually substitutes one thing
for another as if the two were the same, in order to tar one with derision
proper to the other; and it uses the modifier "merely" followed by something
trivial in order to demean the subject. I don't know what you call
reductionism, but to me that word is not only justified, the comment is a
poster child of it.

~~~
gkya
That comment is making a _deduction_ given the details of the business, and
includes the commenters thoughts about it's future. WRT merely, when saying
"they are merely adding a middle-man to probation", that's not reductionism if
they're indeed "merely adding a middle-man to probation". WRT your citation of
the guidelines, this interpretation might indeed be the strongest plausible
interpretation of this business model that the founders have been explaining.

If I wrote yet another minimal lisp implementation in a weekend, and marketed
it as if it was going to best Chez Scheme in all benchmarks, and someone came
along and told "yeah but this is just a reiteration of sth. we already had,
nothing new here, and your ways seem a bit shady", would we have to discount
it as reductionism?

You might disagree what people think, but you should not think and decide
instead of them. I appreciate the work you do as a moderator of this fabulous
community, but in this case you're openly siding with one side of the
discourse. Either do not do that, or add to the guidelines that "HN moderation
will vouch for what HN companies are doing, disagreements on their busines
models are unwelcome". And also, while at it, I can not vouch for the comment
I'm talking about, and I would rather.

~~~
dang
I post these things all the time. It isn't taking sides, except insofar as a
moderator has no option but to make calls about things. Nor does it matter
whose work it is or who owns the company: I say the same things in any
context, as anyone with the stamina to slog through my comment history can
see.

~~~
gkya
I guess furthering this thread is of no use so I will conclude my
participation with a sincere invitation to reflect upon and reconsider your
point on this particular situation. I understand your motives, but believe
you've made a wrong call this time.

------
foolinaround
I will be rooting for this startup to succeed!

You need to identify the least riskiest of cases, identify numbers, what the
current scenario and the projected outcome would look like. It does not need
to be a dramatic change. At this point, what you need to be seeking is a
mindset change from just jailing folks.

~~~
dfrappier
Thank you for your support! We agree that a big part of the solution is
changing mindsets.

------
forapurpose
It's great that you are concerned with helping people who are convicted of
crimes, but I'm very concerned about unintended consequences. This old quote
comes to mind:

 _" You should buy a company any fool can manage because eventually, one
will."_ (attributed to Peter Lynch)

With all respect, the founders seem well-intentioned (though my impression of
them is worthless, being based on a few paragraphs) but if Promise succeeds
then eventually others will run the company and there will be competitors. As
Lynch says, we can't count on the managers.

Prisoners are very vulnerable. As we have seen with the for-profit prison
industry and bail industry, they are abused when at the mercy of private
business. For example, I read recently that in some prisons, prisoners receive
only one meal on some days in order to cut costs. For profit businesses have
every incentive to abuse these people and no incentive on the other side
except the good intentions of management. Eventually, the management won't be
so well-intentioned.

Making money from incarcerating people may be an unavoidably unethical
business. Perhaps a non-profit would be a better idea.

------
gingerbread-man
Are you guys initially focusing on a specific subset of those awaiting trial?
I imagine the needs of those charged with, say, drug offenses, would be very
different from the needs of those charged with, say, domestic assault.

~~~
dfrappier
You are correct. Needs of those in the criminal justice system vary widely.
This will depend on the government partners in each jurisdiction that we are
in. Some clients will assign us participants and some will give us guidelines
on who we are able to work with. In any case, once we get individuals into the
program, our intake is what really tells us what services would be beneficial
to them. We will then work to connect the with the best services in their area
given their specific needs.

------
frgtpsswrdlame
Seems like a business that could be extremely profitable that is bad for
society if I'm honest. Sometimes the answer is reversing privatization, not
more of it. You're going to use an algorithm to judge suitability for your
program but these algorithms are known to embed degrees of the biases already
present in the justice system, in that case your service exists to extend the
reach of these biases. But also I have trouble with a company whose social
mission requires that it 'keeps it's hand out of the cookie jar' so to speak.
On your end there will be pressure to further monetize the 'promisees', there
will be pressure to restrict their freedoms further, there will be pressure to
offload the costs of your program back onto taxpayers. Even if you manage to
avoid those which I'm skeptical of, there will be pressure on the government
side to push the costs of your program off onto pretrialers, further
commoditizing an already over-commoditized system.

------
ForrestN
This is an extremely politicized area of society—do you have opinions about
existing policy, and where you would like policy to be changed? Do you see
this business as part of the existing political movement against mass
incarceration, or as an alternative to it? Do you plan to participate in the
political system directly, for instance by lobbying congress?

------
grageth
I know I'm really late to this discussion, was moving house (yuck). I think
this is a great idea, but wonder if you'd benefit from limited scope.

I'd personally focus on the juvenile justice system and perhaps young adults.
You need to incorporate education into the program to help people get their
GED or equivalent.

I've seen kids go into jail on a Friday for the most silly reason, only to
have to wait till Tuesday to even be seen in court. The county I lived in only
heard cases Tuesday and Thursday. So Friday meant multi-night lockup. This can
be incredibly daunting on a kid. Especially a first time offender. If you guys
could create a trust system where kids could be released immediately to
parents by using a device with app it could stop some problems before they
begin.

Partnership for work is probably the next most critical piece. If you could
find companies that, based on your assessment, would be happy to hire people
on your program you would be tackling another big problem. If the only way
someone can provide for their children is to steal, they're going to do it.

Good luck with this! It's a noble cause and something has to disrupt the
judicial system.

------
adamsea
Would you consider becoming a certified B Corporation, or something along
those lines?

[https://www.bcorporation.net/what-are-b-corps/certified-b-
co...](https://www.bcorporation.net/what-are-b-corps/certified-b-corps-and-
benefit-corporations)

------
ethiclub
I can see that this seems to be US based for the foreseeable future.

While this is clearly the best 'bang for buck' in addressing an issue (USA:
22% of the world's prisoners), I wonder how this model, if successful, can be
rolled out to other nations.

Fanciful thinking to apply this to China or NK work camps of course, but for
AUS, EU etc., perhaps this can be used as a proof of concept, monitored and
discussed in the relevant houses of parliament.

\--

On a different note, this is a potential slippery slope in terms of freedoms.
When cost to apply this technology falls, there is the danger of tracking
device sentences to become longer and longer - 2 terms (of a far right
government for example) could quickly legislate to the point at which people
are tracked for much of their lives.

------
40acres
So it sounds like this is an alternative for defendants who cannot make bail?
I see it as the judge will set bail of $0 but require the defendant to enroll
with Promise and follow through on the plan set forth by your company or risk
the chance of a real bail declaration.

It seems like an interesting idea but I'm hesitant to support this. As we've
seen this week we need to be more critical as to what companies are doing with
our data. Unfortunately a disproportionate amount of black and Latino
individuals are processed through the criminal Justice system. As a black man
I really don't feel comfortable with supporting a company that will data mine
people are are systematically processed through the CJ system.

------
Cyberdog
Who pays for this service? The suspects, or the governments?

Will you only be working with suspects pre-conviction, or will you also work
with the convicted as part of a sentence that would otherwise involve time in
prison or county jail?

~~~
dfrappier
Our current plan is to do contracts with government agencies. There is no plan
to charge the participants directly. Our plan was to start with pre-trial
individuals but in speaking with potential clients, we do have interest in
working with individuals who are on probation, parole and those who can serve
their sentence in the community.

------
jancsika
Could you tell us a little about what you see as the potential customerbase
for the data you collect on the participants?

------
kerkeslager
Is there a benefit to society in having this organization be a for-profit
corporation, or would this be better handled by a non-profit with a strict
mandate to put the needs of those semi-incarcerated first?

------
knuththetruth
I don’t think there’s any example where privatizing the prison pipeline, for
profit, has ever resulted in a more humane system.

What happens when investors come knocking for you to make more money off
parolees backs?

------
Panjam
Well done you two. Prison shatters families and communities when a family or
community member is sent to jail. Talk about cruel and inhumane, to punish
children for their parents transgressions.

------
devinhelton
"We work in partnership with governments who release people from jail on
condition that they work with Promise as an alternative to being in custody.
We also provide support to people under community supervision. We use an
intake assessment to create an individualized plan that is based on the risks
and needs of each participant. "

Is "working with Promise instead of being in jail" only for people who are in
jail pre-trial? Or will you be trying to do this for people who have been
convicted of actual crimes?

~~~
dfrappier
Our plan is to start working with individuals who are in jail pre-trial, but
after many conversations with different stakeholders it became apparent that
we should also work with individuals who have been convicted. So it is part of
our plan to work with individuals who are on probation, parole and those who
could be serving their sentences in the community. There is an opportunity to
support these individuals so that they are less likely to violate their
conditions of release and end up back in jail.

------
ladybro
I really respect what Promise is trying to do. Genuinely, thank you for taking
on this challenge.

What do you think are the top one or two obstacles that you face in on the way
to achieving your goal?

------
yazan94
I really want to echo the sentiment that I really hope you guys succeed. There
has to be a better incarceration solution than what we have going on now.

I do have a couple questions and please forgive my ignorance in the US
judicial system, but from the post it seems that Promise will provide an
organized way for participants to be tracked and make/keep appointments.

* How would Promise and its government partners determine a person's eligibility?

* Is a Promise program intended to be available for everyone regardless of the offence? If so, how does Promise intend to convince the society at large that tracking and monitoring the participant is enough to deter repeated offences while on the program? Especially for more violent crimes

* Is the end goal that Promise is in mind when the sentencing is done? ie: the judge would sentence an offender to be on a Promise program for x months/years?

* While I personally think this is a great idea, especially for people convicted of non-violent offences, the fact remains that a mark on one's criminal record severely limits one's job prospects. Does Promise work with participants to better their chances on getting a job and getting back on their feet?

Again, best of luck on this!

------
leggomylibro
What a fantastic idea - it's really refreshing to see people working on
problems like this and I hope you find success in supporting people to
overcome their issues!

~~~
dfrappier
Thank you!

------
meri_dian
I think it's an excellent idea. It represents an incremental step towards
getting people out of the system - if only for a time pre-trial - and keeping
them in society as productive humans with their dignity somewhat more intact.

In fact I'd like to see restricted freedom and monitoring systems like this
put in place for people who would be in jail otherwise, not just those
awaiting trial.

~~~
dfrappier
Yes. Our system is based on the premise that people are "innocent until proven
guilty" but in practice, people that have money can bail out of jail and
people who don't, remain in jail. This is fundamentally unfair. While
incarcerated, someone can loose their job, housing, and cause sever disruption
to their family. Because of these pressures, people will often plead guilty to
a crime just to get out of jail. And to your later point, we agree and we have
spoken with potential clients who are also interested in increasing the number
of people who are able to serve their sentences outside of physical jails.

------
heyyyouu
I love this idea, but how much id education going to be included in promise?
Almost every incarceration program with a low recidivism rate has education at
its core yet I only see a mention of job training above. Perhaps you'll have
other education opportunities you'll be offering that you have yet to mention?

~~~
dfrappier
Thank you. Our main goals are to keep individuals on track for completing all
court mandated obligations and to connect them to services. When we do our
detailed intake with participants we evaluate their needs and work to connect
them to the appropriate services. That can include drug treatment, mental
health treatment, eduction, job training/placement, etc.

------
joshuaheard
The policies behind prison are enumerated by the 3 "R"s: Rehabilitation,
Removal (from society), and Retribution (punishment). Promise sounds like it
covers the first "R" very well, but I don't see anything geared toward the
other two.

Maybe this idea would be more akin to a halfway house than to actual jail.

~~~
dublinben
Their efforts are aimed at pre-trial detention, aka jail, not incarceration,
aka prison.

~~~
joshuaheard
I read it again, and don't see that limitation in there. If so, though, it
would be a welcome innovation for bailing defendants.

~~~
sparrish
The bail bond industry (also for-profit) will not welcome it. And my guess is
they know how to fight back.

------
JabavuAdams
Kudos for having the courage to work in this area! Are you planning ahead on
how to deal with recidivism? This seems like a highly politicized area and no
doubt there will be lots of people who would love to point to your failure(s).

All it takes is one repeat offender hurting someone while on your program. Cue
the pitchforks...

------
rm_-rf_slash
On one hand I hope that people, especially nonviolent people who are no threat
to society at large, are able to serve their time while being able to
reintegrate with society so that they have a stable job and network once their
sentence is up.

On the other hand, I worry this sounds a lot like private prisons. What
happens if the crime rate goes way, way down, or that the only people left in
prison are the dangerous who wouldn’t qualify for Promise? What does that do
to your profits? Would you be willing to accept an ultimately very low revenue
in exchange for a “job well done”?

Anything that combines “for-profit” and “criminal justice system” makes me
uncomfortable, even if people’s hearts are in the right places and the
business does do good in the world. I hope this works out, but I am uneasy
about yet another business that sees criminals as a market.

~~~
phaedradiana
74 percent of people in county jails are waiting for a trial. Of that a
majority are bail eligible, but cannot afford it. They have not been convicted
of the crime they were arrested for. We are focusing on the population that
would otherwise be incarcerated because they cannot afford bail.

~~~
sparrish
The reason they can't make bail is because it's either set very high because
the charges are very serious or they've made very poor financial decisions.
Either case, they are a flight risk. It's very likely they'll bolt if let out.
Your program doesn't address that.

------
peterwwillis
If the purpose is just to pay for pre-trial release of inmates, the simple
solution would be to just release them and offer them reasonable payment
plans. Or to postpone the fee until after they have had a fair trial ("I will
only pay you if you treat me fairly according to the law" might actually
incentivize the judicial system to treat people more humanely).

Locking people up for not being able to pay their fines/fees is literally
debtors' jail. This was supposed to have been declared unconstitutional, but
the practice remains, and the ACLU is fighting current cases.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors'_prison](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors'_prison)

------
smogcutter
What about the data from from the tracking device? Is it stored? For how long?
Who has access to it, with and without a warrant? ADAs are going to be falling
over themselves to get a hold of this data, and judges will give it to them.

[edited out some inflammatory editorializing, sorry]

------
rrggrr
Back child support cases alone are a strong use case and huge population for
this service.

------
SeeDave
I hope that you guys have discovered a way to unlock the inherent goodness of
specific individuals and get them on a path to healthy productive behavior;
but from the totality of my life experience and media consumption... there are
some deeply misguided and/or ungrounded adults out there who will stop at
nothing to kill, steal, and rape as long as it advances their own personal
interests/desires in the moment without consideration of how their behavior
affects others or if it will even lead to negative consequences for
themselves.

I hope that this works out for you and your clients, I really do.

------
thedrake
Recidivism rule sets using baysein methods is outlined here that provide
transparent methods for accurate predictions.
[https://arxiv.org/pdf/1503.07810.pdf](https://arxiv.org/pdf/1503.07810.pdf)
and her talk about it here
[https://youtu.be/MjxcwKN2dXs](https://youtu.be/MjxcwKN2dXs)

Having personally spent 2301 days in prison 19-26yrs old I found that many
factors are at play in those who return. Truly look forward to what you are
looking to accomplish and am open to helping however I can.

------
txsh
What happens the first time someone is murdered by someone in your program who
would have otherwise been in jail? It’s ruined countless political and civil
servant careers. How will your company survive the public backlash?

------
jcoffland
The only way this works is if Promise is a nonprofit. No plan to profit from
human suffering is justified, regardless of good intentions. We cannot have
our justice system driven by profit seeking corporations.

------
acoleman616
I'd love to follow your progress! Any chance of an email newsletter?

~~~
dfrappier
Yes. I will add you to the list. Thank you!

~~~
burntwater
Can you link to somewhere we can add ourselves to the list so you aren't
inundated? Not to add to your work load, but this kind of organization is,
IMHO, exactly the kind that could benefit from a general purpose newsletter
for people who want to follow your progress, but aren't actually involved.

------
codingdave
The idea sounds terrific - I'd be interested in hearing how the response has
been from governments? Also, what goes into the decision making process to
manage the risks for specific cases?

~~~
dfrappier
The response has been good so far. We have had some pushback based on general
concern of replacing humans with technology. But, overall positive. We use an
assessment tool to measure risk based on everything from employment to past
conviction.

~~~
ceejayoz
> We use an assessment tool to measure risk based on everything from
> employment to past conviction.

Could you speak more to this? There are serious concerns with software being
used to evaluate the risk of criminal behavior. Are these being considered?

[https://www.propublica.org/article/machine-bias-risk-
assessm...](https://www.propublica.org/article/machine-bias-risk-assessments-
in-criminal-sentencing)

~~~
phaedradiana
We love these questions because they are at the heart of why we founded this
company. I am a woman of color whose family members have been in the system
and Diana is a criminal defense lawyer by trade. We have spent a lot of time
looking at assessment tools. At this point, we need both qualitative and
quantitative analysis.

~~~
ceejayoz
I appreciate that it's being thought of, but I'd love more detail on what
concrete steps you've taken to address these sorts of biases in the tooling,
which you indicate already exists.

------
walrus01
What is your plan to address the large sums of money that private correctional
institutions, and correctional officers' unions can use to lobby and influence
state governments?

------
CodeWriter23
What sort of conditions do you all see as triggering a “step up”.

Based on some court-associated Drug Replacement Programs in the South, my
perception is failure of the subject to pay fees on an ongoing basis might
trigger a “step up”. In the court programs I referenced, you either show up
every day with $25 for your dose of Suboxone or go back to the slammer.

Please elaborate on your fee structures, how they are paid, and as I
originally asked, what are the interactions between fees and increasing
enforcement?

------
walrus01
The entire "Here's how promise works" paragraph, and the one following it in
your introduction sounds like, essentially, you've created a private parole
system. State and county governments already have parole systems.

Is your proposition to these governments that they should pay you to supervise
paroled persons instead of their own pre-existing systems? Is your proposition
that it will be more effective (in terms of lower recidivism) and cost per
parolee?

~~~
dfrappier
Some counties have pre-trial departments and some don't. We believe we can
perform these services or enhance services that already exist. In either case,
making the current system more efficient and effective.

~~~
walrus01
so your target market is partially pre-trial diversion programs, and not only
persons who have already been sentenced?

~~~
dfrappier
Yes. Our initial target population are those individuals who are currently in
jail pre-trial-meaning they have not been convicted of the crime for which
they were arrested. Most of these people remain in jail because they cannot
afford to bail out. We believe this is a critical population because they
often have pressure to plead guilty to a crime they did not commit just to get
out of jail. They are often then on probation, which can lead to a cycle of
incarceration for probations violations-often that are very minor infractions.

------
bonsai80
Phaedra and Diana, thanks for diving into this. It's exciting to see effort in
this area. I'll look forward to seeing progress updates over time.

------
wavefunction
Sounds like a very dynamic and interesting start-up mission.

My experience is that smaller jurisdictions try to wrangle monetary fees and
levies using the threat of jail-time and the disruption it causes to a
person's life so you may be facing some perverse incentives from some of the
audience of 'customers' you're trying to reach in smaller jurisdictions.

But what you're doing is great and I applaud yCombinator taking a chance on
such a vital and excellent venture!

~~~
phaedradiana
Thank you!

------
veeralpatel979
This reminds me of the 1988 Willy Horton attack ad:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io9KMSSEZ0Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io9KMSSEZ0Y)

I think it's an idea we as society should look into, but I fear criminal
justice is just too politicized these days. But maybe this is only at the
national level, and people are much more open at the state/local levels.

What have the state/local people thought about it?

~~~
dfrappier
Many people who are in the day to day see the value. Public defenders who we
have spoken with understand the chaos that is created when their clients miss
court and they see the value of our product. Sheriff staff who we have spoken
with would like to release more people into the community to serve their
sentences but want them to have additional support and resources to feel
comfortable doing so. Elected official also seem to understand that this is a
problem and want solutions. So overall there has been a positive response.

~~~
veeralpatel979
That's great! What do you see as the long term future of this company? An IPO
or acquisition seems a little tougher in this case.

------
goshx
Brazil would benefit from this greatly.

Right now in some cities in the South of Brazil the police have to let the
arrested criminals go because there is no room for them in the cells.

~~~
dfrappier
This is happening in the U.S. too. Some of the counties are under court
mandates around overcrowding in the jails. The goal is to have individuals in
their communities but without any support, they often miss court dates or
other obligations and then they get a warrant and end up back in jail in a
worse position. Also, in this situation, the root cause of the arrest is never
being addressed.

------
arturm
Really admire your mission. Mass incarceration is one of the most horrific
crimes that has been overlooked by the media and society.

I truly hope Phaedra and Diana can help fix it!

~~~
dfrappier
Thank you! We agree. And we will be working to make positive change.

------
adamsea
This is really cool.

Are there existing protocols/precedents within the judicial for deciding who
would be eligible, and not be a risk to the public?

My first thought was that politicians/judges/etc will be afraid to be seen as
"soft on crime", or, "releasing murderers and rapists," etc. In other words,
that the social and political aspects of Promise would be the most challenging
part.

~~~
dfrappier
Thank you. Every jurisdiction has their own protocol. Bail is usually set
based on a bail schedule. In CA, every county has their own bail schedule. The
judge can then listen to arguments to either increase or decrease the bail
amount based on different factors around whether they will be a flight risk
and whether they will be a danger to the community. Once a bail is set, most
people who have money bail out. Those that don't sit in jail until their case
is resolved. In many counties, courts do have the option of releasing someone
on their own recognizance or with some type of supervision. New laws like In
re Humprey (a recent decision out of SF) is changing the way that courts can
set bail.

------
blang
Let me preface this with me declaring that what I know about the US penal
system comes 90% from television.

How is this different from parole or a halfway house?

~~~
phaedradiana
Those are both post conviction. We are focusing on pre-trial. Primarily,
people who would be incarcerated while waiting for a trial because they cannot
afford bail.

~~~
sparrish
If you're focus is only pre-trial persons who can't make bail, I don't see how
you'll stay in business.

Bail is to be set based on the seriousness of the charges and the likelihood
that the accused will skip out on further proceedings.

If your clients don't have enough assets to 'make bail', either the charges
are very serious or they have made very poor financial decisions (maybe both).
Either makes them a flight risk and there is a reason they'll stay in custody.

Your program will essentially take in the worst of the accused and try to get
them to the court on-time. I don't see anything in your well-meaning plans
that gives proper motivation or incentive for them to follow through and not
just skip the county/state/country.

To work, your candidate selection will have to be very vigorous and my guess
is there isn't a large enough user base to make all the red tape of working
with local and state governments worth it.

------
ada1981
I'm excited to see folks working on tech to help the prison system.

Curious what unintended consequences will you need to be on the lookout for?

For example, could this increased capacity and decrease costs and then will
that capacity go towards even more arrests?

If you save a department, say 50%, they may be reluctant to lose their budget
and instead will just double the number of arrests/people held.

~~~
ada1981
Was hoping to get some feedback on this, I'll try to contact you via the
website.

------
hanh2010
Hey guys, have you guys looked into social impact bonds? I think your service
would be a great fit for that type of product!

------
genemachinery
Delta FosB is a protein in addicts and criminals with brain damage. It is
related to opiate addiction and Traumatic Brain Injury in sports. Can you
monitor this protein in a contact lens? It may correlate to crime and
recidivism. Criminals will game the Promise software how do you stop this?

------
foolfoolz
> We then monitor and support participants to help them succeed with their
> plans.

so a private police force “monitoring” people?

~~~
dfrappier
Promise will be given all court mandated obligations for each participant. The
Promise team will help monitor them against that plan. If we see that they are
not meeting court obligations, we will work with participants to get them back
on track and in compliance so that they are not returned to custody. That is
our goal. To get people out of jail and help keep them out.

------
thrownaway954
how is this different from already established government funded programs
like: drug court, day reporting and reentry, probation, community control?

i don't like it when private businesses get involved with public programs
(look at private prisons for example). we already have enough corruption in
the system.

~~~
dfrappier
Promise would make these programs more efficient by providing additional
support to participants and having the technology take care of many of the
routine, time consuming tasks that social workers or case managers currently
do.

~~~
thrownaway954
that's a dodgy answer. mind elaborating on what exactly you plan to do.

------
kirkules
What kind of records will you keep that will be open to the public, or for
academic study? I can imagine some data that would be useful to increase our
understanding of how effective your approach is would also be related to the
privacy of people in the program, and so harder to release.

------
albertTJames
Individualized care will have even more positive benefits for those who were
excluded from care before. This is a great idea, make it a community too,
anonymously curated, with people from hard neighbourhood acting as one to one
counselors, help them find jobs, lawyers.

------
notananthem
Are you looking to hire anyone that is currently based out of Seattle? I would
love to work for you.

~~~
dfrappier
Not yet, but we may in the future. Please keep us in mind and check for open
positions on our website.

------
deusofnull
What do you pay as a wage for these people who you, so to speak, bail out of
jail? Is it minimum wage? If so, then this seems less, but still rather
exploitative of the individual. Especially in in the case where they are
acquitted and not convicted.

------
misterbowfinger
How do you choose which incarcerated individuals get to be part of Promise?
The most obvious media circus is going to be around high-profile arrests.
Would you allow alleged high-ranking members of crime syndicates to be part of
Promise?

------
kirankn
If a convict is considered a threat to the society, he/she should be (a)
punished for the crime committed and (b) incarcerated so as to prevent further
crimes. Government has to make funds available to ensure these.

------
emrekzd
And in your investor deck you "promised" your VC investors there is a
potential for huge monetary return in this. That's what the VCs will look at
anyways. Side benefit to community? nice to have but who cares.

------
owens99
Love this idea! Please add me to your marketing list, Twitter handle in
profile.

------
gist
> We work for government agencies to monitor and support individuals who would
> otherwise be in jail or who are under some form of community supervision.

Examples of some of the crimes that people 'would otherwise be in jail' for?

~~~
phaedradiana
Petty theft or burglary.

------
nextstep
Promise will be paid per former inmate that enters into this program I
presume?

As long as there is a profit incentive for people to be in the criminal
justice system, there will be market forces pushing to increase the prison
population.

------
dotBen
_" we reduce restrictions when possible and increase only when needed."_

I worry about a private company making that decision. It should be the
government to make that kind of decision, not private industry.

------
gkya
_I 'm profoundly shocked_. I find it unacceptable that a government outsource
something this ethically, legally and economically sensitive to a private
business. I refrain from an ethical comment on the founders---even though the
fact that this is an effort to monetize incarceration leads me to reflections
on them not that hard to guess given my stance---but the business itself is
ethically foul, and regardless of the quality of it's practical application in
_this_ instance, fundamentally dangerous. Even if this particular company is
benevolent, this leads the way for other enterprise to try their chance in
this area, and it's not hard to see this whole 'industry' becoming a post-
modern diluted and prettily-marketed0 Slavery 2.0.

------
jpm_sd
When will you introduce "slap drones"? [1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture#Laws](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture#Laws)

------
FabioFleitas
Wow! This is an incredible challenge to tackle. It seems like right now you're
planning to cover the U.S. Is your goal to provide this globally or keep it
entirely focused on U.S.?

~~~
dfrappier
Our focus is on the U.S. at this time, but we are definitely open to expanding
beyond the U.S. in the future.

------
shanselman
Also worth calling out [https://appolition.us/](https://appolition.us/) as a
way to turn spare change into Bail.

------
indigochill
I think this is a fantastic concept. I'm hopeful that this is a step towards
putting the "justice" back into "criminal justice system".

~~~
PostOnce
Nothing says _justice_ like _private equity_. Remember the cash for kids
scandal?

------
duck
> Believe it or not, many of these people never even end up being charged with
> or convicted of a crime.

Where could someone find any #'s / data around this?

~~~
dfrappier
I can speak from experience and the experiences of many defense attorneys.
Many of my clients spent time in jail and then the government decided not to
file charges, or the charges were later dismissed, or they were acquitted of
the charges at trial. This is is a good resource for additional information on
the number of people impacted by the criminal justice system:
[https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2018.html](https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2018.html)
and this is a series on netflix that highlights some of these issues:
[https://www.netflix.com/title/80187052](https://www.netflix.com/title/80187052)

------
betimsl
I guess when prisons are businesses listed on a stock market, you can
certainly introduce things like this.

If it's better than the other, it will probably succeed.

:D

------
kolpa
Why host your own probation instead of providing tools to the professional
probation systems in the existing judicial system?

~~~
PostOnce
I'm losing a lot of karma out here, but it's worthwhile, staying silent
facilitates the corruption this sort of shit begets. Remember _cash for kids_?

The answer to your question is just one word, and that word is _greed_.

------
wetpaws
How about changing the culture of mass incarceration and over-regulated over-
criminalized society first?

~~~
dfrappier
We believe that is necessary. There are many organizations and individuals
working on this issue. We support change to the culture of mass incarceration.
We believe getting people out of jail and helping to support them while they
are out is part of that change.

~~~
gt_
What kind of bills can these individuals expect to receive from your
collections department?

------
SJMosley
This idea is fantastic. I look forward to following the updates on Promise.

~~~
phaedradiana
Thank you!

------
AbenezerMamo
Very excited to see grow :)

~~~
dfrappier
Thank you!!

------
projectramo
Are you raising money?

------
deft
So now startups are trying to disrupt the justice system. Nice!

~~~
phaedradiana
Thank you!

------
lmenus
Love it!

------
Invictus0
So basically, your app

1) Is a calendar with reminders

2) Can integrate with a wearable GPS monitor

3) Has a survey that decides how much freedom each user loses

4) Provides "referrals and support"

5) Gives reports to a court

Doesn't sound all that innovative to me. And that's not even considering the
perverse ethics and incentive structures here.

~~~
symlinkk
Not really sure why you're getting downvoted, I agree completely.

~~~
dang
Perhaps because it breaks the site guidelines about shallow dismissals and
responding to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

Obviously the app is just a part of what they're doing, and the bulk of it
involves working with people and institutions.

~~~
symlinkk
It still doesn't sound that innovative to me. Are we not allowed to criticize
things anymore?

~~~
dang
Of course you are! But snarky internet dismissals are sort of a lazy
substitute for real criticism, which (a) engages with the actual core of a
thing and (b) adds information, so the readers can learn something and decide
for themselves.

I understand the temptation to post snarky internet dismissals. It's a quick
way to vent annoyance about something where it can take a lot of energy to
react substantively. Nonetheless we don't want them here—not because we want
HN to be criticism-free (on the contrary, there is plenty of good criticism in
this thread) but because they make us all dumber and the site lamer. On HN,
people need to do the work of processing their annoyance, figuring out what
the underlying substantive point is, expressing it in words—and then post
_that_. Or, alternatively, just don't comment. That takes even less energy
than snarking.

This isn't something we arrived at a priori, by the way, or some moral
sentiment about snark. It's a pragmatic assessment of what works and doesn't
work on HN.

------
walrus01
> that they work with Promise as an alternative to being in custody

great, you've invented the penal workhouse

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workhouse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workhouse)

~~~
dang
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone
says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize."

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
dang
You have a fine substantive point in the middle there, but unfortunately you
sandwiched it between two violations of the site guidelines. That makes this a
bad comment for HN. Could you please read
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
and not post those here?

Sad and bitter experience has taught us that the guidelines violations do far
more damage to the forum than the sandwich filling can ever make up for in
value. That's why we have the guidelines.

Edit: I detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16632889](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16632889)
and marked it off-topic.

~~~
smogcutter
Fair enough. Okay to edit out the crust?

~~~
dang
You're welcome to edit it! if you take out the crust I will detach my
complaint :)

Edit: detached.

------
ihackalot
I believe this is a great idea, only a bit ahead of its time. I don't think
it's going to be successful until you address some cultural, educational and
ethical issues first. Remember you are still the country who elected Trump for
president.

Anyhow... I wish you the very best and I hope you can prove me wrong!

~~~
maxerickson
It's already a thing for decades:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_probation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_probation)

~~~
ihackalot
Doh, nobody assumed they "invented" anything. I did assume though that even
the average Joe would be able to understand that what they are doing here is
applying the concept at a different level. I'm sorry, I thought you would get
that.

Find this "Promise extends the scale and effectiveness of community
supervision by balancing human touch and technology to improve long-term
outcomes." [http://joinpromise.com/#how](http://joinpromise.com/#how) I can't
find anything like that on Wikipedia. Can you help?

------
epx
Why not async/await ? :D

------
ibn_ibid
Does this mean Promise is paying the cash bail for those awaiting trial? Or is
there a lower rate negotiated? What are the qualifications for release (i.e.
who gets chosen to get their bail paid over someone else)?

~~~
dfrappier
Promise would not pay the cash bail. The goal would be that no bail is paid at
all. We would work with the government to agree to release certain individuals
back into the community without having to post bail. Promise would then remind
them of their obligations so that they stay on track with any court mandated
obligations and refer them to services based on the needs of each participant.
As to who would be eligible-that would depend on the agreement with each
county that we work with.

------
PostOnce
tl;dr: "We want to privatize parole so we can siphon some sweet government
cheese and have near zero accountability".

Where will the perverse incentives land this company in 10 years? Will we see
them lobbying to keep xyz illegal so as to maintain their "customer base"?
Will they under-report parole violations so not to undermine their income,
thereby leading to (terrible crime z)? Who knows. It's not a thing that should
be privatized, because money can't be trusted, because incentives corrupt.

But hey, if it makes YC a buck...

------
ferrel2078
Imagine actually investing in this. This is social workers as a service,
because of course a bunch of Stanford nerds and SV VC elites know how to fix
society better than anyone else. You couldn't come up with satire better than
this.

So like what happens when the first 22 yr old "community assistance team
member" gets raped and chopped up into pieces by one of your clients? Is that
just the price of disruption?

------
neelkadia
I should say, No

------
robsonlabs
Wow, these comments are so closed-minded, pessimistic, and discouraging.
Ignore them!

~~~
s73v3r_
No, very much listen to them. Privatization has been one of the absolute worst
things to come to the criminal justice system in the US. This company
absolutely must learn from those mistakes if they want to do good. Otherwise
they're just another garbage company profiting off of higher criminalization
rates.

------
braderhart
How are you going to address the concern of people that will see this as a way
for the government to exploit labor, and put activists and people that
disagree with them into a forced-labor program? Wouldn't you essentially be
offering an incentive for exploitation?

------
vpmpaul
The reason prison exists and has existed for all of human society and history
is that it works. How arrogant of you to think you have some revolutionary new
way to punish societal defectors.

The main issue with these types of programs. Once someone is on the "jail
track" they have already failed and been failed by society. The real solution
is to keep as many people on the right path as possible before they go wrong.

This feel good crap also doesn't account for the fact that a huge percent of
people are opportunistic pieces of garbage that will break the law for a small
personal benefit when the penalty is low. Many people already out there will
at the prospect of lesser penalties start to defect from the social contract
they are currently adhering to.

