
KIA Dealership in Canada remotely disables car over $200 fee - breitling
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-man-fights-back-after-dealer-remotely-disables-car-over-200-fee-1.4265588
======
dingo_bat
I was highly confused until I read the article. Here is a summary:

1\. Guy's mom pays off his car loan

2\. Dealer says we installed a remote immobilizer to protect our loan

3\. Dealer demands $200 to remove the device since the loan is paid off now

4\. Guy understandably refuses

5\. Dealer immobilizes car

I think this sort of behavior should mean the end of your dealership. I cannot
quantify/identify the actual wrongdoing here but I'm pretty sure there is
something illegal.

~~~
CobrastanJorji
I'm no lawyer, but I think the wrongdoing was when they remotely disabled a
car that was owned by someone else. If I think my neighbor owes me $200, I
can't just lock him out of his house.

A lawyer might or might not use fancier words like "coercion" or "extortion,"
couldn't say.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
Funny about all this is that they are charging $200 to remove the immobilizer,
and by immobilizing the vehicle it's clear it's not been removed... so why are
they immobilizing his vehicle for the $200 charge for removal of a product
that they didn't remove? My brain, it hurts.

They are asserting that it's their property, but they want to charge to get it
back, and will punish you if you don't pay. Man, I love car dealerships.

~~~
wang_li
Also if it's their item and not part of the car that he paid for, he should
assess a storage fee and a power usage fee for the device.

------
metalliqaz
The article says it well. The GPS only benefits the dealers, and they demand
that the customers pay the fees to install, maintain, and remove the devices.
60 years ago this kind of hostile, predatory bullshit would have been met with
torches and pitchforks. Today people just have to eat it.

~~~
averagewall
What's the alternative? Don't lend money to people with a bad credit history,
even if they need a car to get a job to pay their debt, like this guy seems
to? What would have happened 60 years ago in that situation? You can't just
keep trusting people to pay their debts when they didn't before. I made that
mistake and the guy still owes me thousands of dollars which I might never
see.

~~~
cowsandmilk
The alternative is that you build the cost of installing, maintaining, and
removing the GPS into your loan terms and/or purchase price.

Breaking stuff out into fees can make sense when you want to discourage
certain behaviors and therefore charge a fee for them. But everyone with a
loan will have the device installed, maintained during the term, and removed
at the end of the term or on default. There is not a behavior to modify, so
these fees are stupid nonsense.

~~~
SilasX
The original comment was objecting to GPS tracking/disabling on high-risk
loans altogether.

You're talking about the issue of the GPS removal being a separate fee, which
is a different issue.

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rdtsc
If it can be done remotely, it can be hacked. So just waiting for shady
dealers paying hackers to disable cars their competitors sold to drive them
out of business.

~~~
afarrell
Your larger point is very correct, but far more likely would be organized
crime disabling a fleet of commercial vehicles to secure a ransom.

~~~
averagewall
I doubt these are the factory immobilizers built into the ECU. You can
probably just connect two wires together to bypass it. So the ransom would
have to be less than the cost of an urgent callout of a mechanic.

~~~
Balgair
I would really doubt that with most cars made in this century. The On Board
Computer (OBC) likely has a satellite hook-up via OnStar or some similar
system. You'd likely have to replace the entire OBC, which is many thousands
of dollars. I guess you could push-start a manual and get that working, but
good luck with that.

~~~
nthj
These are separate machines from the OBC that wire into the ignition system.
As best I can tell, they are simple timers that reset when they receive a text
message over the cellular networks. A friend of mine was warned not to go
camping in the boonies near their payment date.

~~~
Balgair
> A friend of mine was warned not to go camping in the boonies near their
> payment date.

Your friend needs to find a new car, I think. That's insane. Why would you pay
someone to do that to you?

------
sandworm101
Note that every canadian pundit is rightly calling this illegal. Disabling a
car they no longer had any title over was a mistake and everyone knows it.
That said, cars are disabled every day for non-payment of even smaller
amounts. These lockouts are vicious tools.

~~~
pkulak
It's part of an entire industry that re-labels auto "rentals" as "sales":

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U2eDJnwz_s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U2eDJnwz_s)

~~~
lordlimecat
At some point, you have to assign at least _some_ of the responsibility to the
folks getting loans they cannot afford. It doesn't make predatory lending
right, but lets not dehumanize or patronize the victims by implying they lack
agency or responsibility.

Stinks that the woman's commute is an hour and a half, but come on there are a
LOT of people who do that commute. Reducing the commute to 10 minutes is not
necessity, and does not excuse throwing judgement out of the window.

------
aneutron
What's interesting is that with such system in place, you could easily kill
people. For example, disable the car when you're in a deserted region that
hardly sees a traveler every 2 weeks. And while the example is kind of
unlikely, the possibility of that happening is frightening. Especially that
the protocol behind is MOST LIKELY un-authenticated and could probabaly be
spoofed easily by expert researchers.

~~~
tdb7893
If the place is that infrequently traveled they could just shoot you with a
gun. Even if they disabled my car somewhere where there wasn't cell service
and literally no one drives my family would still send people out to look for
me before I starved to death. A car on the side of a road is pretty easy to
find so it's unlikely you would actually die from something like that

~~~
pavel_lishin
> _If the place is that infrequently traveled they could just shoot you with a
> gun._

Not from the comfort of their couch in Moscow.

~~~
5ilv3r
Isn't the UN considering that issue right now?

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_nrvs
Glad this made me remember Cory Doctrow riffing on similar scenarios in 2012
with his talk "The Coming Civil War over General-purpose Computing"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbYXBJOFgeI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbYXBJOFgeI)

------
FussyZeus
> "Immobilizers are most often seen in cases of sub-prime borrowers with
> questionable credit," he said. "The devices are very effective at keeping
> people on time with their payments."

John Oliver did a whole segment on these scummy dealerships, unloading shitty
cars at massive markups deliberately (and not even hiding that they are)
targeting borrowers who will probably default, so they can repo the car and
resell it to some other poor person.

None of this is illegal (except in this case obviously) but it still feels
like something that should be illegal, amazes me we're so poor at going after
what's obviously a predatory business practice.

~~~
jnordwick
While i sympathize, with a high risk of default you need to charge very high
interest rates and markups. You cannot get around the economics with a Care
Bear stare.

~~~
CPLX
Being poor is fucking expensive.

~~~
Danihan
No, having a bad reputation and poor credit history is expensive.

~~~
dpark
Creditors do not care a bit about your reputation.

And no credit history is almost as bad as poor credit. If you have no credit
history, you should expect to overpay when financing anything.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _no credit history is almost as bad as poor credit_

Seconding this. It took me a long time to get over my German Swiss aversion to
consumer debt. You are certainly penalised for doing that in America--from
getting an apartment to factoring invoices at my business, many things became
harder.

------
dsfyu404ed
Aftermarket alarms, installing stereos and removing unwanted 3rd party
electronics on newish cars are all cake compared to mechanical work for the
most part.

I find it hard to believe that there isn't a car stereo/alarm/electronics shop
in Sherbrooke that isn't known to other shops for removing these sort of
things. You'd probably have pretty good luck going to the U-pull on a Saturday
AM and asking the girl at the desk to point out someone who's a regular then
offer them $50 to remove the system.

Obviously those sorts of actions are slightly outside of the box for most
people but if dealerships want to act scummy then the workarounds become more
widely known.

Edit: Please do some googling, window shop a few models, read a few
installation instruction pdfs for trackers and aftermarket alarm systems
before saying they're impossible to remove.

If you can install a stereo or aftermarket alarm then you can install/remove
on of these. They are not designed to be Ft. Knox. They are designed to be a
deterrent for the layman.

~~~
userbinator
From what I've read, modern immobilisers are usually far more integrated with
the main ECU than other peripheral systems, since their main purpose means
they should be difficult to disable. Bypassing one isn't going to be anywhere
near as simple as "hot wiring". I can see this being even more true if/when
self-driving cars become common, which actually seems somewhat creepy.

~~~
tyingq
I don't think this is the case for these devices. They have to be installed on
a wide variety of cheap low end used cars. That's the model...mark up shitty
used cars to lease to those with lousy credit. To work across that wide
variety of makes and models, you need a cheap generic device.

There's also probably little overlap between people skilled enough to remove
one and people that would buy a car this way.

Edit: here's one of them: [http://www.calamp.com/products/fleet-tracking-
units/lmu-200](http://www.calamp.com/products/fleet-tracking-units/lmu-200).
It does have a way to inline the obdii port, but that is likely read only for
various data collection. These devices are sold to fleet owners as well. I
doubt the sleazy lease operators bother hooking up that part...just the gps
and ignition lockout.

You may be thinking of the factory immobilizers integrated with the key fobs.
Those used to be hackable if you didn't want to pay the high dealer price for
replacement keys, but they mostly aren't anymore.

~~~
gm-conspiracy
So, I found a place that sells those LMU-200's:

[https://shop.dcsbusiness.com/product/calamp-
lmu-200-series/](https://shop.dcsbusiness.com/product/calamp-lmu-200-series/)

Looks like around $100, has 4 I/O ports (which I assume you use 1 w/ a relay
to prevent the starter motor from working, and not kill the vehicle while in
use).

------
cmurf
There's going to be future battles, effectively DRM for automobiles. Epson has
chipped their ink tanks, so you can only use their inks in their printers.
Apple does this with their own iPhone spare parts. You have no right to a 3rd
party repair, or authorization to hack and replace the software with something
else (hence the right to repair laws in the works).

So why can't car companies chip all OEM spare parts, and disallow the car from
operating if it's had any unauthorized repairs? Just put it into the sales
contract. No more 3rd party repairs. Reduced competition. More profit for the
car companies and dealers.

~~~
bluGill
Enough customers would care that no car OEM would try. The type of person who
replaces their car every 3 years wouldn't care (most work is warranty, and
even basic maintenance probably goes to the dealer as that is the best way to
ensure if there is a warranty issue, there is not question that the
maintenance was done correctly) but when they go to trade the car in the used
car buyers will care because they don't always go to the dealer. Any
manufacture trying this will discover that trade in value of their cars is the
scrap price. (the manufacture is probably the one who owns the lease so it is
their dollar so it will hit them hard)

That is just practical reasons. There are a lot of laws about car repairs: car
manufactures are required by law to make repair information available to third
party repair shops. Independent car mechanics are a large enough group as well
that any attempt to work around the law will result in more laws.

------
Kpourdeilami
How are these GPS trackers installed? I'm assuming they're somehow plugged in
through the OBDII port under the dash. If that is the case, can't he just pull
out the tracker and continue driving?

~~~
MrFoof
They are not plugged into the OBD-II port. They are hardwired. Example:
[http://i.imgur.com/G2HVLGI.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/G2HVLGI.jpg)

~~~
gm-conspiracy
So, splice the green wires and we are good?

------
caspercba
I wonder why his grandmother bought the car instead of giving him 13.000. then
he could pay a car in installments and have the rest for any emergencies. I
never understood why people prefer cancelling credits in an economic crisis
instead of keeping them.

~~~
hoppa_liza
Maybe she does not trust him much with the money. In which case she would pay
for the car and let him drive it.

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fish_fan
I wonder if this is something insurance should handle.

------
rootsudo
The real crime is the $14,000 pricetag for a lease on a KIA.

What the fuck.

~~~
Kpourdeilami
If it helps, $14,000 CAD is roughly $11,000 USD

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almonj
If we confult Experience and the credible Relati- ons of others, we fiiall
find it probable enough that many things receive Nourilhment from meet
Elements.

~~~
spraak
Are you a bot with a glitch? :)

~~~
graphitezepp
Looks more like drunk posting to me, a bot would spell better.

------
Digory
Good news: blockchain of the future will prevent disabling a car for the debt
of a person outside the chain of title.

Bad news: This is the kind of smart contract I see blockchain handling well:
locking people out of cars, houses, hotel rooms, over non-payment.

ed: heh. I have touched a sore spot, apparently.

~~~
Kpourdeilami
What would have blockchain solved in this case? IMO, nothing.

If people don't read contracts written in English, how do you expect them to
read and understand a smart contract that would contain the same clauses as
the original contract but coded in a language they don't understand?

~~~
Digory
In this case, it appears the title had already passed to Grandma. A blockchain
title could/should prevent Dealer from shutting down Grandma's car over
Grandson's debt.

If Grandson is right about the clause not appearing in the contract, of
course, he'd be doubly good.

To say it less flippantly, the low-hanging fruit in blockchain-assisted
contracting seems to be these automatic self-help remedies and simplifying
title disputes -- which, right now require judges and police for even simple
disagreements. You'll have fewer _wrong_ denials of access, but perhaps more
denials overall.

