
No visas for low-skilled workers, UK government says - shekhardesigner
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51550421
======
Legogris
Sounds like they took a lot of inspiration from Japan, where they have a
"Highly Skilled Professionals" visa track with points for similar things, with
the limit also being 70.

For Japan, you still need to fulfill the requirements for e.g. normal work
visa, but you get perks like preferential handling, shorter timed to permanent
residency and getting visa for dependents.

On another note, this is going to suck for "low-skilled" brits who want to
move around the EU as I assume EU put some symmetry to this.

~~~
valdiorn
> On another note, this is going to suck for "low-skilled" brits who want to
> move around the EU as I assume EU put some symmetry to this.

Well, that's sort of the point; keep the brits in Britain, get them to fill in
the gaps in the job market there (like nursing and teaching, etc) instead of
leaving the country. Also, by limiting the supply of workers, you might drive
up the pay in those sectors as well.

This all makes sense in theory; drive British people into sectors in need of
workers by limiting choices, and remove foreign labor from those sectors to
make room. The hope is better jobs for British people, wages stay in the
country increasing tax income and money in circulation, and possibly resulting
in higher salaries (because salaries were held down by the willingness of
foreign workers to accept lower income than locals... at least in theory).

What they haven't talked about however is that in a free market this should
drive up the salaries of nurses and teachers, but the govt. refuses to add
additional funding to those sectors, so unless they do something the NHS and
the education system will basically implode over the next 10 years.

~~~
davidgould
> the NHS and the education system will basically implode over the next 10
> years

Feature, not bug.

~~~
barry-cotter
The UK primary and secondary education system have been among the worst to be
a teacher in among developed Anglophone countries for decades, under Labour
and Tory governments. Roughly 50% of England and Wales qualified teachers
don't teach because it's an awful job. That's not a Tory thing, that's an
English thing, or a British thing if Scotland is as bad.

------
felipeerias
I lived for several years in the UK and it’s weird to think that nowadays I
wouldn’t be able to do so.

I first moved there to study a MSc degree, which I could afford because EU
students paid the same fees as the British (and those fees were significantly
lower then). Some time later, I came back to the UK because my partner was
doing EU-funded research at a British university, while I continued working
for an EU company remotely.

I’m aware that mine is not the stereotypical immigrant experience, but I did
meet a lot of Europeans that were similarly spending their best years in the
UK.

The British had something precious until not long ago: a working welfare
state, a welcoming society, and an influx of enthusiastic citizens from all
across the EU. It’s sad that they are throwing it all away.

~~~
yocheckitdawg
> The British had something precious until not long ago: a working welfare
> state, a welcoming society, and an influx of enthusiastic citizens from all
> across the EU. It’s sad that they are throwing it all away.

The British have many more precious things that that.

They also have a rule of law determined by the BRITISH (NOT Brussels),
responsive and accountable government (even though of course trade offs must
always be made), and still have enthusiastic citizens from around the world
banging at the door wanting to get in. As well as a dynamic and capable
population of natives willing to bear the costs and risks of really changing
their society in the 21st century. And they are still a welcoming society,
them feeling they are in control again will make them more welcoming, not
less.

People counting out the UK yet are being very premature. There will certainly
be economic pain from this and likely other costs, but there are potential big
benefits too. Brexit is a story that will play out over the next 10-20-50-100
years, not just the next 5-10. Would not surprise me at all to find the UK a
wealthy more developed nation than Germany by 2050.

Even when you look at the Boris Johnson Cabinet, the ideas and intent that is
emanating from there is very promising. No more "we can't do this because
Brussels" or "nothing can be done". Real thought into how to make the UK
remain relevant in the 21st century on its own terms, real efforts into how to
improve the country.

This isn't the End of History. This is the end of the insular old folks home
the EU is at danger of becoming.

~~~
kirrent
I assume these tradeoffs you're thinking of might be proroguing parliament for
political intent, purging anyone Cummings can't dominate from the cabinet,
withdrawing the whip from anyone wanting to vote their conscience, attacking
the independence of the judiciary any time it finds the government has acted
illegally, and expelling journalists from the lobby for unfavourable coverage?
It's a pity such tradeoffs are inevitable (if you exclude all previous
governments from both sides of politics).

Snark aside, I think your comment is a useful example of a kind of patriotic
(or dislike of international orders in general) motivated reasoning. Is the
population of natives (perhaps citizens/residents would have fewer negative
connotations?) really willing to bear costs and risks? It's a bit hard to know
when there's been so much noise on the potential financial upsides/downsides
of leaving the EU. Will people become more welcoming when freedom of movement
is ended or does insularity have other costs? These are hard questions with
difficult answers and patriotic optimism is no substitute. I'm certainly not
prepared for you to assert anything about the cabinet being promising without
proper justification.

All in all, I hope you're right. As far as I can tell the evidence is against
you, but people survive falls from aeroplanes so stranger things have
happened.

~~~
rayiner
> All in all, I hope you're right. As far as I can tell the evidence is
> against you, but people survive falls from aeroplanes so stranger things
> have happened.

How in earth can you say the evidence is against that view? The U.K. is the
most successful country in the history of the world, and it achieved all of it
without the EU. The U.K. has an established track record of success without
the EU. It’s the EU that lacks any antecedent historical evidence of long term
viability.

Maybe your point is that, in modern times, you need to be part of an
“international order” to be prosperous. Australia, Canada, and Japan are stark
counter examples—they’re richer than nearly every EU country and have achieved
that without ceding sovereignty to an international body.

~~~
qmmmur
I'm sorry but if you think Australia is rich without America's defense budget
you have some serious rethinking about geopolitics that you need to do.

------
MarkMc
Brexit supporters talked about creating a 'Singapore-on-Thames'. But in
Singapore all construction work is performed by cheap, low-skilled men from
South India who are given temporary work visas. So it seems that Britain is
actually going in the opposite direction to Singapore in this regard.

~~~
knolax
> 'Singapore-on-Thames'

Talk about the irony.

------
threeseed
UK is going to be in serious trouble because of this.

(1) They already had a major shortage for low skilled workers to assist in
agriculture and social care. And yes they have tried to raise wages and
encourage UK applicants with little success. Given the lack of consultation
with the agriculture industry I am guessing they are just going to let it
wither and die.

(2) Given how poorly the Home Office has treated EU citizens wanting to remain
in the UK as well as scandals such as Windrush I can't imagine too many people
trusting them to look after you over the long term.

~~~
fiblye
The number of countries with population growth large enough to serve as a
stable supply of immigrant labor is shrinking by the day. The sooner we adapt
our economies to operate without being dependent on an underclass of foreign
workers, the better we can avoid _actual_ serious trouble down the road.

~~~
threeseed
UK had a massive supply courtesy of the EU and they benefited immensely from
it.

Now that it is going to dry up what is the long term solution for health and
social care workers for example.

You can't automate genuine human compassion and understanding with a DL neural
net.

~~~
fiblye
The UK benefited from it, sure. Meanwhile Bulgaria's population has dropped by
about 25%. They deserve health workers just as much as Brits.

~~~
plantain
Are you really pro-brexit because you're concerned about Bulgaria's
healthcare?

~~~
fiblye
I'm from nowhere near Europe and I'm not letting anyone pin me as pro/anti-
brexit. I just think it's weird how some "common sense" policies that benefit
one country often come at the cost of another country.

~~~
Tomis02
You make it sound like Bulgarians were enslaved and sent to work on foreign
lands. No, people left voluntarily for a better life. Also, these policies
benefitted Bulgaria as well, otherwise they wouldn't have joined.

------
thbr99
Canada and especially Québec should do this too. Québec has a lottery system
for visas. First come first serve. Rest of Canada has a points based system
but is being played by low skilled workers.

~~~
Sytten
I agree, I know some french people who can't get a visa in a reasonable amount
of time (I would not wait for more than 3-4 months myself) despite being in a
sector with shortages of workers. It makes no sense to me, especially from a
government that pretends to be aligned with the needs of businesses.

~~~
mattkrause
The “global talent” thing is weird, in that the main website talks a big game,
but the fine print reveals that it only covers a few very specific jobs.
Neither my wife nor I qualified (PhD researchers in ‘hot’ fields) but video
game artists apparently do.

------
ggm
_No visas for low-skilled workers, UK government says_

No takers from the UK nationals for low-paid jobs, UK workers say.

Country dies from lack of telephone handset sanitizers.

------
mouzogu
"People wanting to come to the UK from outside the EU will find rules are
being relaxed"

Yes because non EU labour tend to have fewer enforceable rights. I don't think
this is about raising any thresholds, its more the opposite lowering the
barrier for exploitation of low skilled non EU labour. At least in a
business/financial sense.

------
raxxorrax
The UK now fines firms for "damaging online content". It holds a whistleblower
that uncovered crimes of war in prison under conditions that are a dangerous
to said inmates life.

I am just glad they left the EU. The problems with their government can only
be solved by the British themselves and the EU doesn't help here, nor would I
want any of these developments jumping over to other countries.

The need for low skilled workers is probably just for exploitation purposes.
That seems to be the case in most instances. For now, the British and other EU
countries are better off separated. Politicians have to answer the voters and
they should have the last word on any visa or immigration debate.

~~~
williamgrant
> The UK now fines firms for "damaging online content"

Does Germany not do the same through NetzDG?

~~~
raxxorrax
Well true, Germany should go too.

------
oliwarner
Let's see what happens at next year's harvest.

Farmers in the UK typically hire hundreds of thousands of seasonal unskilled
labourers, with many crops (fruit, asparagus) having no mechanised harvest
option.

Farmers have already been struggling with shortfalls since the vote to leave
the EU but this is going to kick them over the cliff edge. Tories get a lot of
financial support from these land owners. Can't imagine they'll be too happy
if their income rots away in a field.

------
amriksohata
This will undoubtly cause a shortage in low skilled jobs which will increase
their demand and therefore you will see a salary spike for those roles and
maybe just maybe British natives actually bothering to take up the jobs they
never wanted to do.

------
Zenst
I wonder what percentage of these unskilled-jobs could be replaced by robots,
though not all and in many cases, the cost, maintenance and running of a robot
will not always be cheaper.

------
nimish
Of course, the tier 2 system is already set up like this. The whole "points-
based" talking point was always a canard. There's not a meaningful change
(yet)

~~~
jariel
The points-based system is not a 'canard' and this is not a 'two-tiered
system'.

It's actually what it says it is: a 'points-based system' which is the modus
operandi for most nations that have had reforms in recent history.

Any nation that had to invent its migration scheme from scratch in 2020 would
end up probably with something resembling this.

In a mess of negotiations and unknowns during Brexit, this is actually one of
the least surprising, predictable outcomes.

~~~
nimish
It’s a canard because it’s already been in place for over a decade and has had
middling results. It’s still a pain in the arse to hire someone ex-eu with
skills and the tier 1 HSMP path was closed (so you need a job offer).

Anyone with actual experience with the home office and British immigration
since the coalition knows that the “points based” slogan was hollow. It’s not
like you trade away the job offer requirement!

~~~
jariel
You haven't in any way demonstrated how it's 'a canard'.

It's been partially implemented, but 1/2 of migrants previously from the EU
and that's obviously going away, to be replaced with a full points system.

"Here is the new migration policy ... which is based on a modern points
systems that other nations have", which is fully what is expected.

So where's the 'canard'?

~~~
nimish
The whole political point of the "points based system" was that the UK
_hadn't_ implemented one and was behind the times, and this was a constant
refrain of people who hadn't ever looked into what kind of system the UK
actually employs.

In fact, since at least 2009 it has had one for non-EU migrants -- to middling
effect -- and the new PBS is not significantly different except that it now
applies to EU migrants.

------
yodsanklai
I was just listening to Esther Duflo's talk. She addresses the issue of low-
skilled immigrants.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1pZfFY132Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1pZfFY132Q)

I think she lacks nuance and leaves little room for debate, but still worth
listening.

Also we may not like it, but the UK is a democracy and the xenophobic
sentiment of the population has to be taken into account in designing
immigration laws. It seems politicians have failed at convincing voters that
low-skilled immigration is actually good for them.

------
Archit3ch
> all migrants will only be entitled to access income-related benefits

Can someone from the UK chime in and explain those?

~~~
matthewheath
These would be things like:

\- Housing benefit

\- Employment and Support Allowance

\- Pension credit

Essentially, social security benefits which you are entitled to based on your
income for the most part. If you earn below a certain threshold, you are
eligible for these. Currently, EU migrants are entitled to access these on the
same terms as UK nationals but that will be changing in the future to the same
terms as non-EU migrants.

------
lettergram
This seems in-line with their motive for brexit - “UK first”

It’s not really a surprise....

~~~
craftyguy
I mean, did anyone really expect the UK to stop being xenophobic after they
left the EU?

------
Osmium
UK citizen here. "High-skilled" worker, left the UK. Policies like this do not
make me want to return.

~~~
zkid18
Could you elaborate, please? The policy seems reasonable. I've experienced in
Hong Kong and Japan.

~~~
Osmium
Sure. I don't think points-based systems are in-and-of-themselves
unreasonable, in that there are good-faith arguments to be made in their
favour. It's the undercurrent of meanness and xenophobia behind the policies
that's more frightening to me.

It's difficult to comment on this one policy without contextualizing what's
happened to Britain as a whole over the last few years, and a lot of it has
been pretty ugly.

------
mberning
Powerful economies plundering the world of intellectual resources is both a
shame on one hand and an inevitability on the other. Unfortunately there is no
perfect immigration system and competition between nations for resources makes
these type of policies attractive.

------
droithomme
No problem with the actual best and brightest as long as they are paid in the
90th percentile of market wages.

 _edit: based on the downvotes there 's a significant number of HN
participants who believe that the best either isn't the top 10% or fewer, or
the best shouldn't be paid for their skills. Interesting._

~~~
zelly
HN probably thinks you're implying that immigration decreases your wages, but
that's not necessarily wrong. By basic economic theory, an increase in the
supply of labor decreases wages.

Eventually you get the situation in the U.S. where electricians and union
garbage collectors make more than mechanical engineering PhDs, because they
aren't importing more electricians the way they're importing engineers.

It's one thing to make a moral or ideological statement on immigration, but
it's another to deny the economic reality. Unless we change the way our
economy works and how we allocate money, there is a finite amount of capital
available to given sectors. Surely no one would argue with the extreme
example, like what if every single adult in New York was a roboticist--how
much do you think working roboticists in New York would get paid?

------
undoware
Well, I know which way this is going to go. The pawns who built the structure
of this economic game are the ones being cleared; and every chess player knows
what happens when you run out of pawns.

