
The Problem With Happiness - hoffmannesque
https://athenaeumreview.org/essay/the-problem-with-happiness/
======
lordnacho
As I get older what calms me isn't what you'd normally call happiness. And
although I do things that you'd normally call "making me happy" like eating a
nice meal or seeing friends, the thing that is most calming is the sense that
everything seems to have some sort of perspective that can be invoked.

Once you've come across enough life events, along with perspectives like the
one in the article, you tend to feel a degree of autonomy about how you see
things. You can focus on the (really) big picture of things, where you're an
insignificant short-lived ball of carbon and water, or you can warm yourself
on the details of why it is you think little babies are cute.

There's also a sense that nothing is really new anymore. Whatever someone
throws at me, I can fit it somewhere in my worldview. Part of that is reading
a lot of stuff such as HN, part of it is meeting a lot of people can getting
their view.

~~~
Pimpus
> There's also a sense that nothing is really new anymore. Whatever someone
> throws at me, I can fit it somewhere in my worldview.

I find this hard to believe. Are you not surprised by traveling? Art? dmt
experiences?

~~~
malvosenior
No the OP but I'm no longer surprised by art, traveling or drugs. At some
point you see the same broad patterns repeated over and over. I can't get
excited about another speakeasy, temple or museum. I can enjoy them but they
don't feel "new". Art is the same way, something meant to be "shocking"?
Doesn't feel that way to me, just feels cliche. Abstract, realism... I've seen
it all before. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate it, again it just doesn't
feel new.

Drugs are probably the first thing on the list that get old fast.

Even things I really love, like eating authentic food from different
countries, while highly enjoyable, isn't shocking or new the way it was when I
first had exposure to different food in general.

~~~
namanyayg
Would a strong psychedelic experience not take you to a different realm of
thought? I'm curious why you say it gets old fast, most psychedelics aren't
habit forming.

~~~
malvosenior
In my experience you can only visit that realm so many times before it ceases
to offer new insights.

~~~
namanyayg
Fair, how many times has that been for you? I'll make sure to stay well under
:)

------
yason
Happiness and unhappiness are like the day and the night. Both are needed to
differentiate between light and dark (you wouldn't know if you're happy unless
you also had a sound contact with unhappiness). But life itself is not about
happiness: life doesn't particularly care about happiness. Life goes through
waves of happiness and unhappiness, over and over again, as it makes progress
of its own. Being happy or not merely _colors_ life.

And herein you come into the play yourself: if you want to be happy you'll
have to recognise the happy waves and immerse yourself in them for they will
pass shortly. Some people only feel the unhappy waves as they don't recognize
the happy ones. Other people look for happiness themselves and never find it
as it's a matter of knowing how to receive and seize happiness whenever it's
there. You could say happiness is a state of mind which is on the right path
but there are times you can't get happy by tricking your mind into it. You do
have to have the right state of mind to first wait and then seize happiness
when it next hits your life.

Happiness is like scooping buckets of water from sea waves. You can only do it
when the wave is at its highest phase, you have to be prepared and you have to
be in the moment because you ca no longer do it once the wave has passed.

~~~
OneWordSoln
No, happiness is the result of making others happy. Unhappiness is the same
thing but for when you treat people badly. A person riding waves of happiness
and unhappiness is doing so because they do not understand this fundamental
reality of human existence and have not learned how to treat others
accordingly.

We alone have free will and the Law of Karma (reaping what we sow in others)
is the universe's feedback mechanism to nudge us away from animalistic
competition at the expense of others and towards humanitarian cooperation for
the benefit of one and all, no matter what their superficial differences.

To become consumed with universal compassion for all others and therefore be
committed to helping create happiness in all those around us is to have become
the owner of a deep abiding peace and happiness that cannot be shaken
irrespective of external circumstances.

Becoming consumed by active, selfless love for all others is the zenith of
human self-evolution and is the ultimate meaning of life. That so few
understand this absolute truth is precisely why so many suffer and those who
gain riches are left so very empty.

~~~
coldtea
> _No, happiness is the result of making others happy._

If only it was that easy. There are very self-content (happy) people who make
others miserable.

~~~
OneWordSoln
That is not happiness; that is sadistic pleasure.

~~~
coldtea
Only if you define happiness in your own unique way to make your point a
tautology.

If they are content and happy with their lives, and enjoy what they do
(inflicting pain), then for all its worth, it is happiness.

~~~
OneWordSoln
There is a difference between happiness and pleasure and happiness requires no
unhappiness to result in others. The only way a sadist can earn happiness is
if they are only dealing with masochists and everyone is getting precisely
what they want. But masochists do not want misery, they just enjoy the pain,
which is as different from misery as happiness is from pleasure, though they
may coincide.

~~~
coldtea
That's a "no true scotchman".

Happiness is simply being happy (or, if you want, content and enjoying
yourself).

If you do that by inflicting unhappiness, or by depriving others of things,
etc, it's still happiness.

There's no part of the happiness definition that says it's incompatible to
with "unhappiness to result in others". That might be part of Bhudism or
Christianity etc, but it's not some given of human nature.

~~~
OneWordSoln
One can't be a Scotsman if one's ancestors don't come from Scotland.

There are things that are true because they fit the proper description and
there are people who use "No True Scotsman" because they don't want to learn
the truth.

------
hliyan
I've used the following formula (adapted from Dr. Julian Simon's work) for the
past 10 years, with a good degree of success:

    
    
      Happiness = Perceived State / Expected State
    

You can either improve the numerator or reduce the denominator.

    
    
      Happiness = f(Reality, Perception) / f(Perception of Peers' State, Personal Needs)
    

By this logic, one needs to learn to ignore what others (particularly one's
peers) have and focus more on the question "What do _I_ want?" Trying to
increase happiness by changing _Reality_ (which is what most people do) is a
very inefficient strategy, especially after your basic needs are met.

~~~
anon4242
So if you expect nothing, you'll either be infinitely happy or infinitely
unhappy based on whether your perceived state is positive or negative?

~~~
astazangasta
Presumably the domain is (0,1).

~~~
anon4242
So you can only be infinitely happy?

------
katzgrau
If you want to be happy, start by looking around you and finding gratitude for
the things in your life that are going well. Everything from the big things
like a special person you're seeing or in a relationship with, to the small
things like a sunny day. Do this frequently. There will always be negativity
and problems, but choose not to focus on them as much.

You'll find that by consistently finding things to be grateful for, and being
mindful of the things you enjoy, you will become a more grateful, and
therefore a more happy person.

------
eternauta3k
A key concept here is identifying with a desire.

You have some desires you don't identify with: you would be glad for them to
be taken from you (eg. smoking).

You have other desires you identify with: you would not want them to be taken
from you. For example, you not only want your children to be healthy, you
would be horrified at the notion of losing that concern. It is part of your
identity, and losing it is like a part of you dieing.

Hence the Budda teaches to see everything as anatta or "not self": nothing is
worth forming an identity around.

------
tmpfs
I concur that we should follow Bhutan's example and switch to GNH as the most
logical way to create a healthy society. Clearly GDP as a measurement is
failing us badly given the many troubles in modern society/culture; primarily
i am thinking about all the mental health issues associated with
competition/money.

Having said that i would like to point out an insight i came across recently:

> Happiness is a byproduct \- Krishnamurti

~~~
pmoriarty
_" I concur that we should follow Bhutan's example and switch to GNH as the
most logical way to create a healthy society."_

The article you're replying to argues directly against such measures of
happiness, and against the very idea that happiness should be the goal of
society or of life.

The article deserves reading in full, but here are a few relevant excerpts:

 _" To assign numbers as the UN does, one must assume that happiness is a
single thing measurable by a single gauge."_

 _" As the philosopher John Rawls pointed out, a society of happiness-seekers
would have no reason not to borrow heavily and leave the debt to future
generations."_

 _" Even if one's goal is the best life for the individual, the search for
happiness may be a false path."_

~~~
tmpfs
Which is why i referenced the quote afterwards to illustrate that the pursuit
of happiness is not necessarily the answer and of course happiness in itself
is very hard to quantify but attempting to use it as measurement would create
a better situation for humanity.

If we assume that Krishnamurti is correct and happiness is a byproduct the
question naturally arises, a byproduct of what?

~~~
duggan
The word “concur” means to agree.

As the article makes no reference to Bhutan, national policy, nor concludes
that happiness is a worthy goal, perhaps you intended a different word?

~~~
tmpfs
You are right i should have articulated better. I do think there is a problem
with happiness in that:

1) Any measurement is only an approximation

2) It is quite possible that the "pursuit of happiness" is a damaging force in
humanity (it is detrimental to the environment driven by rampant consumerism
with the never-fulfilled goal of being "happy")

3) That there is the possibility that it is a side effect of something else
amd therefore seeking it is a fools errand.

I mentioned Bhutan as they are the only country i know of that does currently
use GNH and regardless of the problems i perceive with the concept of
happiness _i still think using it as basic measure would change the dynamics
of society in a positive way_

------
ionaisdgionio
I think this piece is excellent, but it does seem somewhat confused one one
thing. There are utilitarians and hedonists who believe in virtue, personal
growth, and self-sacrifice. Hedonism says "happiness is good." It does _not_
say that my happiness is more important than yours, let alone that your
happiness doesn't matter. That would be egoism.

------
bambax
> _As the philosopher John Rawls pointed out, a society of happiness-seekers
> would have no reason not to borrow heavily and leave the debt to future
> generations. (...) What’s more: if the only reason to have children is to
> make oneself happier, rather than to fulfill a social or moral duty, a lot
> fewer people will have children. Mounting national debt and a birthrate well
> below replacement level: that describes Western Europe today rather well._

Those two statements are inconsistent. If "mounting national debt" is evidence
that the people of Western Europe only seek their own immediate pleasure, and
if having children makes oneself happier, then we should expect those same
people to have many children.

Maybe the author meant that having children don't make people happy (which may
or may not be the case); but it's not what he said.

~~~
barking
When you're not dating someone seriously, you're asked if there is anyone
special in the picture.

When you are dating someone for a while, you're asked if this is _the one_.

When you've made that official, you're asked if there is any _news_ ,
children-wise.

There's a lot of societal pressure from family and friends to have kids or
risk being perceived as a disappointment or failure.

If none of that was there, fewer people might have kids.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I sometimes wonder whether this pressure is exerted because children are the
main way one's parents, grandparents and extended family can stay relevant in
one's life.

~~~
coldtea
Or you know, because with fewer children, it would be quite possible that
neither those asking the question "why are children needed" would exist to
pose it, nor the species in general.

~~~
badpun
I suspect it’s just fun to be a grandparent - I imagine it’s a tiny bit like
being a parent, but nowhere near as intense, esp. regarding the stress and
workload.

------
tim333
I think happiness can be a handy practical objective if you don't analyse it
too deeply.

It's interesting contrasting the countries me mentioned - Germany with
Nietzsche saying "Man does not strive for happiness. Only the Englishman does"
and Tolstoy and other Russian writers along the same lines. That was mostly in
the 19th century and kind of followed by the English doing fairly dull money
making stuff while the Germans and the Russians embarked on revolutions and
wars causing huge death and suffering. Give me shallow happiness rather than
that lot. Still I'm English so I fit Nietzsche's theory.

------
chewz
I subscribe to Frenkl's [1] theory. Some people seek happiness some purpose in
life. Most are probably in between.

> What man actually needs is not a tensionless state but rather the striving
> and struggling for some goal worthy of him.

[1 [https://www.pursuit-of-happiness.org/history-of-
happiness/vi...](https://www.pursuit-of-happiness.org/history-of-
happiness/viktor-frankl/)

~~~
OneWordSoln
When one strives for the happiness of others one has fulfilled the greatest
purpose in life and the reward is a deep abiding peace and happiness,
regardless of circumstance.

All it costs is your entire life and the scorn of your fellow man who are
mostly embroiled in the seeking of pleasures and therefore know not happiness.

What a bargain!

~~~
pmoriarty
So you agree to go wherever the carrot of happiness and the stick of suffering
lead you?

Part of what you sacrifice in doing this are freedom, self-determination, and
dignity.

~~~
OneWordSoln
Freedom is our fundamental human right, self-determination is limited by
material means, and dignity is knowing that you seek to both understand and
embody the highest ideals.

But sacrificing the freedom to cause misery to others? What a small price to
pay.

~~~
pmoriarty
You don't have to cause misery to others merely because you have chosen to go
your own way rather than choosing to chase happiness.

~~~
OneWordSoln
Happiness : Pleasure :: Unhappiness : Misery.

The former of each are karmic, the latter of each are physical.

Happiness and unhappiness are not "chased"; they are earned as a result of
one's treatment of others.

------
Noos
Eh, I don't like this article. Of course the gulag makes seeking happiness
absurd, but it destroys all belief systems. The gulag destroys a faith in
human goodness too, or a faith in social justice, or in individual will. It
destroys religious faith as easily as faith in political atheism. Using that
to say a life based on maximizing happiness has issues really isn't helpful.

And to be honest, no, suffering does not making your life meaningful. That's
one of the most absurd things there is. Even Jesus prayed the cup be taken
from him, and wept tears of blood. The author confuses having to survive with
suffering as giving meaning beyond simple self-interest, but a lot of
suffering is just meaningless. the camp cruelties are meaningless, people
torment others for pointless reasons.

Finally, I always am wary of "meaningful." A lot of times you can make meaning
in dangerous things that harm others. Happiness...well, at least you end up
limiting the damage you do to others; the revolutionary who focuses on
transcendent causes may have a meaningful life, but birth a system that gives
us the gulag.

~~~
rramach
Classics have a way to taking things to extreme to illustrate various points.
The Gulag example highlights that when a person had a choice to take the road
to the left (selfish) or the right (selfless), they took the right road and
gave up their self/happiness but ended up achieving meaning. Frankl's book on
search for meaning also talks about meaning being more desirable than
happiness.

The point is not that suffering makes ones life meaningful but the struggle or
striving or the road seems to be preferred by the wise than an end state like
happiness.

------
MikeSchurman
Although an interesting read, I have a problem with one of it's central
premises, that security is not a good measure of happiness, and that the UN
World Happiness Report has security as a contributor to the score. It uses
statements like: "The UN calculators of happiness also presume that the more
security, the better. The less insecurity, the more happiness points a society
is awarded."

This actually doesn't seem to be true. They use reported security as a
possible explanation of happiness score, but security score does not
contribute to happiness score calculation.

It sounds pedantic but kind of throws a lot of their further arguments out.

[https://worldhappiness.report/faq/](https://worldhappiness.report/faq/)

------
sisu2019
Happiness is a feeling. It's purpose is to reward you for doing the right
thing. What that is can be pretty flexible but it's ultimately informed by our
biological and genetic imperatives. It follows that you can not expect to be
happy all the time just as a healthy human is not constantly angry or sad.
Happiness is a means to an end which is to get you to and keep you living a
good life and not an end in itself. The surest way to invite misery is to go
chasing happiness. Ask a heroin addict, he knows in a real sense what Novaks
pleassure machine is like.

~~~
BigFish12
>It's purpose is to reward you for doing the right thing

And who defines what "the right thing" is?

>The surest way to invite misery is to go chasing happiness. Ask a heroin
addict.

Or you could ask an entrepreneur who made his dream come true by chasing
happiness. He would tell you the surest thing he did to get out of his misery
was chasing happiness. Depends on who you ask.

~~~
sisu2019
> And who defines what "the right thing" is?

Your human nature. Eat well, be outside, have friends, move you body, have
children and strive towards something that is important to you.

> entrepreneur who made his dream come true by chasing happiness

I co-own a small business and running and growing it has absolutely nothing to
do with chasing happiness.

------
throwaway713
I think it’s a lot easier to describe what happiness isn’t than what it is –
it’s much less difficult (although still not trivial) to instead identify what
suffering is. In that sense a good goal would be to minimize the amount of
suffering in the world. But do you minimize the maximum suffering experienced
by any single individual, or do you minimize the mean suffering, or something
else? The particular form of the cost function is a bit difficult to reify.

------
ggm
Nature Boy: in the end, the greatest thing is to be loved, and to love in
return.

The golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you (which I
have read is a good summary of the Torah)

Tolstoy only had to make his hero live to love others first and then if he
died unrequited its tragedy but less futile?

~~~
OneWordSoln
The platinum rule: do unto others as they would like to be treated. And, yes,
that is (within limits, for we don't want to give the alcoholic more alcohol)
the essence of religion.

I don't know Tolstoy but we are only responsible for loving others; if they
don't return it that determines their outcome, not ours. Love is the opposite
of selfishness so to require something in return is not love at all but some
kind of manipulative transaction. That doesn't mean it doesn't emotionally
hurt when someone treats you cruelly.

And 'Nature Boy' by Nat King Cole is a great, great song. It's amazing when a
song can embody wisdom. My favorite is Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful
World" with his spoken word intro:

"Seems to me, it aint the world that's so bad but what we're doin' to it. And
all I'm saying is, see, what a wonderful world it would be if only we'd give
it a chance. Love baby, love. That's the secret, yeah. If lots more of us
loved each other, we'd solve lots more problems. And then this world would be
a gasser."

~~~
cptnapalm
Thank you for the Nat King Cole reference. Upon initially reading that "in the
end, the greatest thing is to be loved, and to love in return", I thought to
myself that that sounded nothing like Ric Flair.

------
TheSeeker11
Now 41 years old I relate to this on a deep level. Although I work in an
industry which interests me, most days are spent thinking that none of it
means anything. I struggle to not walk out and abandon everything a few times
a week. I think I'm waiting for death.

------
m3kw9
Wealth would cause happiness, just at the beginning, the anticipation of all
the stuff you can do, but as time goes on, it becomes normal and for some can
lead to reverse as the disease of more infects them. That’s amongst many other
factors that can mess a person up

------
ankeshk
"Happiness cannot be pursued. It must ensue." \- Victor Frankl

~~~
barking
"Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be" -Abraham
Lincoln

------
randallsquared
Happiness is a metric for how well you're doing in life, by your own belief
(alief?). Our culture seems to be all about gaming the metric.

------
the_gipsy
“I’ve never seen a happy man”

— Stalker

(from the movie Stalker by Tarkovski. A stalker is a guide that leads men to a
place where their innermost dreams are fulfilled)

~~~
narrator
I read "Roadside Picnic" which is the Soviet sci-fi novel on which the movie
is based. That has to be one of the bleakest most depressed sci-fi books of
all time. It's up there with "A World Made by Hand" or "The Road" in terms of
epic bleakness. It's weird that there is a literary style dedicated to
exploring profund sadness and depression. It seems that somehow sadness has
become obsolete in our society even though the statistics show that suicide
rates have been rising sreadily since 2000.

~~~
coldtea
> _It 's weird that there is a literary style dedicated to exploring profund
> sadness and depression._

I find it more weird that there's a prevalent way of living and organizing of
our society dedicated to inflicting profound sadness and depression...

As a mere literally exploration it would be very welcome indeed.

------
jokoon
Happiness is like intelligence: the word might have significance, but it's not
really well defined if you want to measure it.

------
CPLX
A Buddhist would tell you that the source of all our suffering is when our
expectations diverge from reality.

I think they may be on to something.

~~~
BigFish12
If your doctor tells you that you have terminal cancer and you will die within
2 weeks. You expect to die within 2 weeks, but I dont think that makes you
suffer any less.

------
11235813213455
I believe happiness requires respecting the overall natural environment

------
shrimp_emoji
Happiness is silly,

suffering is good,

socialism == Soviet authoritarianism and they're bad because they don't
understand that,

and so wealthy unhappy people should not be expected to contribute to a social
safety net.

Got em

------
jondubois
>> Observing that wealth has not made people happier, some economists have
proposed that

The fact that wealth and happiness are often mentioned together in articles
and books is a very strong indicator that they are related.

The problem is that people who are greedy enough to actually acquire a good
sum of money in this system are usually psychopaths. The problem with
psychopaths is that their only pleasure in life is knowing that they are
better than other people. Capitalism is built to make sure that psychopaths
are never satisfied; there will always be someone who has more money. If
you're not a psychopath and you manage to make a lot of money, then you will
almost certainly be very happy because you won't care at all if a lot of other
people are wealthier than you.

~~~
barking
I can think of some well known entrepreneurs who could be said to have behaved
in a psychopathic manner when younger, ruthlessly dealing with competitors,
but then turned into philanthropists later.

One name in particular jumps to mind, which I won't mention because it's just
my opinion.

But, generally speaking, how can one explain behaviour like that?

~~~
lordnacho
> But, generally speaking, how can one explain behaviour like that?

Physiological changes between youth and old age, in particular less
testosterone.

Positional changes, going from being single to having a wife and kids.
Suddenly you're protecting their future instead of aggressively ensuring your
own.

~~~
barking
That sounds plausible. There was one teacher I had who seemed to have a
complete personality change after he nearly died (heart problem I'm pretty
certain). He went from being demon* who specialised in humiliating students to
being pleasant and easy-going. The first time I ever interacted with him was
in front of the public when I did my very first bit of what might be termed
work experience when he loudly proclaimed to all around that he was dealing
with the _" absolute pits here"_

~~~
lordnacho
Yeah, a guy I worked with was known for crazy outbursts as well. Really mean
behaviour, that sort of thing. After he got married and had a kid it mellowed
a lot. And that's despite his frustrations with work being the same.

------
revskill
Some of people i know, earned money by just stealing other's people products,
and they're happy about it.

Happiness is not about morality, it's about $$$ stealing. (Mean you can earn
more than you can spend).

That means, in general, if you're moral to be happy, you'll in the chance of
being fucked by robbers.

Fight for your safistation and goals, and you'll find happiness.

