
Out of the Darkness: How two psychologists and CIA devised torture program - geetee
https://www.aclu.org/feature/out-darkness
======
aqme28
_' By early 2002, the CIA, the Justice Department, and the National Security
Council were debating whether the legal and humanitarian protections of the
Geneva Conventions would apply to captives suspected to be members of al-Qaida
or the Taliban. After weeks of debate, and over objections from the State
Department, President George W. Bush ultimately issued the final word on the
matter. In a February 2002 memo, he stated that al-Qaida and Taliban detainees
were not protected by the Geneva Conventions.'_

This is one of the roots of the problem. Once you have a class of people
without rights, you can arbitrarily identify people as part of that class and
they have no chance at due process. Unless absolutely everyone has basic legal
protections, no one has them.

~~~
Mz
You remind me of a scene from the movie _Lawrence of Arabia_ (based on the
life of the man by that name) where he talks about "We do not let any of our
people fall into enemy hands because they are considered (something something)
thus not protected by the Geneva Convention." In other words, it was their
policy to shoot their own people who were too injured to travel rather than
let them be taken as prisoners and tortured by the enemy. It was considered a
mercy killing.

Edit: In other words, they were not recognized as a proper army and were
deemed to be something like internal rebel forces, subject to internal law
only, with no International protections, such as the Geneva Convention. They
were treated horribly when taken into custody and often tortured.

------
SCAQTony
Time for war crime trials.

Blatant violation of Article 2, United Nations Convention against Torture,
United States Signatory 18 April 1988, ratified 21 October 1994.

To be proven by ACLU:

"...For more than a month, Suleiman endured an incessant barrage of torture
techniques designed to psychologically destroy him. His torturers repeatedly
doused him with ice-cold water. They beat him and slammed him into walls. They
hung him from a metal rod, his toes barely touching the floor. They chained
him in other painful stress positions for days at a time. They starved him,
deprived him of sleep, and stuffed him inside small boxes. With the torture
came terrifying interrogation sessions in which he was grilled about what he
was doing in Somalia and the names of people, all but one of whom he’d never
heard of. ..."

~~~
dogma1138
Half of the heads of state of Europe would be dragged along with the US since
the convention forbids states to transport people to any country where there
is reason to believe they will be tortured.

Overall 54 countries participated and cooperated with the US on it's
extraordinary rendition program from Iceland to Iran.
[https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/g...](https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/globalizing-
torture-20120205.pdf)

This would be an interesting trial indeed...

~~~
Zelphyr
So, the Geneva convention is basically a lip-service treaty only enforced when
its convenient? Sounds like most treaties come to think of it.

~~~
dogma1138
The Geneva convention doesn't cover irregulars, this is the UN treaty against
torture which like most UN conventions is an utter joke.

~~~
SCAQTony
The Geneva Convention is pretty clear and the United States signed on.

Yale Law School Lillian Goldman Library:

Article 2 & 5:

"...Prisoners of war are in the power of the hostile Power, but not of the
individuals or corps who have captured them. They must at all times be
humanely treated and protected, particularly against acts of violence, insults
and public curiosity. Measures of reprisal against them are prohibited.

: "...No coercion may be used on prisoners to secure information to the
condition of their army or country. Prisoners who refuse to answer may not be
threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of
any kind whatever. ..."

[http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/geneva02.asp#art5](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/geneva02.asp#art5)

~~~
dogma1138
Of their army or country. Irregulars as in terrorists, spies, mercenaries etc.
Are not protected by the Geneva convention and are not considered prisoners of
war.

~~~
SCAQTony
Interesting legal point. We never declared war on "al Qaeda" since it's a
ultimately just a logo and the combatants could be labeled criminals.

------
numlocked
The actual 'torture report' by the Senate intelligence committee is worth
reading at least in part (it's long...) and goes into some good detail about
how the psychologists were recruited and operated.

[http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy1.pdf](http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy1.pdf)

Take an hour or two to read the executive summary at the beginning and you
will be better informed that just about anyone. Going to the primary sources
is easy enough, and it's really enjoyable (a weird word in this context) to
form opinions based on the rawest information available. Of course the actual
report is a political document in itself, but that aspect is as much a part of
the coverage of the report as the contents itself.

~~~
b1tr0t
It's been pulled from that URL unfortunately. There's a few copies floating
around if you google the filename unfortunately they don't come from as
authoritative a URL as the .gov address you provided.

~~~
e12e
Shouldn't it remain readily available to at least the citizens of the US? If
nowhere else, via the Library of Congress? An initial search didn't turn up
that report (as far as I can tell, at a glance, there's a couple of funding
documents authored by Feinstein at least) -- but there's a rather depressing
list of other documents:

[https://www.loc.gov/search/?q="Committee+Study+of+the+Centra...](https://www.loc.gov/search/?q="Committee+Study+of+the+Central+Intelligence+Agency's+Detention+and+Interrogation+Program&st=list&c=150)

Like the older:

United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary Hearing June 10, 2008

"Coercive Interrogation Techniques: Do They Work, Are They Reliable, and What
Did the FBI Know About Them?"

[https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/Senate-
Judiciary...](https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/Senate-Judiciary-
Hearing-June-10-2008.pdf)

(39 pages, some interesting points are made, among them some pretty clear
arguments that torture is illegal, and harsh techniques that for some reason
or other are deemed to not be torture may also be illegal...)

------
deutronium
"Today, Abu Zubaydah is imprisoned at Guantánamo. He continues to suffer as a
result of the torture. He has permanent brain damage. He suffers from searing
headaches, sensitivity to noise, and seizures. He can’t recall his father’s
name or his own date of birth."

\-- That is simply fucking abhorrent.

------
simon_
I am always annoyed by the argument that torture is unacceptable AND it
doesn't work. It's not totally implausible that this is true, but I think it's
very likely that torture "works" in some sense and certainly everyone
practicing it expects it to work.

So... for an anti-torture position to have some meat to it, you have to make
it clear that you think torture is unacceptable _even when it does work_.

If you're not willing to sacrifice real lives and safety to avoid torture, I
don't think you are meaningfully against it, and you certainly stand no chance
of persuading those convinced of its efficacy.

~~~
pyre
Do you believe that all those people that signed confessions to witchcraft
during the Inquisition were truthful?

What about all of the people that are tortured that don't have anything to do
with terrorism? What sort of reparations do they receive? What sort of penalty
does the US citizenry or the US government pay for those types of mistakes?
It's easy to throw others under the bus to save yourself, but I'm not sure if
the US can really claim to be the world's Moral Authority when they are doing
such things.

~~~
arthur_pryor
the poster you're replying to is not saying that it definitely works, only
that it might. and additionally (and this is the crux of that statement): even
if it does work, it's still morally wrong.

------
phren0logy
Small, but important point:

There are two APAs:

1\. American Psychological Association - PhD/PsyD Psychologists - (torture
scandal)

2\. American Psychiatric Association - MD/DO Physicians - (unambiguously
opposed to medical involvement in torture)

People get psychiatrists and psychologists confused all the time, and the
distinction here is really, really important.

Bias: I'm a psychiatrist, and I am proud that our professional organization
has been clear from the start that torture is unacceptable.

~~~
dogma1138
Bruce Jessen got a PhD in Divinity from Utah State so probably not even that
:P

------
gnu8
How do these guys still exist? Anyone who has the opportunity to do so should
damage these guys. Turn off their accounts, refuse to sell them goods or
services, anything not required by law.

By no means am I suggesting anything illegal or dangerous. But it's appalling
that James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen are allowed to participate in society.

If you are an engineer or executive at any company, you have a duty to check
for accounts belonging to these people and turn them off. If they subscribe to
your services, their money is no good. If they want to buy products, they are
not for sale. No credit cards, no bank accounts, no cellular phones.

They don't belong in our society and anyone in a position to eject them ought
to do so.

~~~
lotharbot
The vigilante approach sounds good when you apply it to people you find
abhorrent. Doesn't sound so good when you realize some people find
homosexuals, blacks, atheists, etc. abhorrent and think "they don't belong in
our society".

~~~
arthur_pryor
much as i'd like to agree with the person you're replying to in this specific
case, you're right in the general case (full disclosure: i'm black, and pretty
devoutly agnostic).

------
S4M
Reading this article, I was wondering about the logistical costs of this
torture (on top of the fees paid to Mitchell and Jessen). Wouldn't it have
been more efficient to arrest the suspected men and try to have an honest
conversation with them in the line of "We suspect that you are part of a
terrorist network that wants to harm us. If you speak, we can protect you and
your family, if you don't, well we will detain you for couple of weeks -
without harming you - to see if you change your mind, and then we will simply
release you."

It may sound too innocent, but how is someone able to trust the information
given by someone who has been driven crazy? If Suleiman forgot the name of his
father due to the torture, he may as well forget crucial details of the
terrorist plot he was supposed to be part of.

And on a totally unrelated note, please disable the autoplay of the videos
when scrolling down to them, I think this is one of the most annoying misuse
of javascript I ever came across.

------
sneak
It remains a tremendous national shame that there have been absolutely no
movements toward prosecution for those that perpetrated this incredible
regression from civilization.

~~~
javajosh
Agreed. The problem is that, in the public's mind, there remains ambiguity
about whether water-boarding is torture, and whether torture is wrong. (Yes
and yes, FYI). Without real action taken against John Brennan, GWBush, and
various people in the CIA the US has lost it's principles, it's backbone.

~~~
jgrowl
I blame so much on the media in this area. They spread lies and confusion with
the constant barrage of debates about whether waterboarding really was
torture.

History will not judge us kindly.

~~~
sneak
One can opt out of "us" relatively easily by moving their personal support
(i.e. tax revenue, GDP contribution, et c) elsewhere to a place that supports
the universal application of human rights regardless of skin color, religious
affiliation, or national origin.

In 2008 I left my job, girlfriend, friends, and family behind to do so. It's
tough but it's possible.

~~~
digibo
Can you please elaborate on that? As of now, it sounds like you left behind
everyone you knew in order to change how your taxes are spent.

~~~
scintill76
I'm assuming they emigrated and renounced US citizenship. Would be interesting
to hear how and where etc though.

~~~
sneak
I didn't renounce my citizenship because I do not have any other citizenship,
and my place of residence will not give me a residence permit without a
passport to paste it into.

------
e12e
Btw, for those that aren't aware, it might be timely to mention the legendary
German interrogator, Hanns Scharff:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff#Auswertestelle_W...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff#Auswertestelle_West_Interrogation_Officer)

as he is often brought up in discussions on interrogation techniques.

------
leroy_masochist
Compelling article. I think the extended interview Jon Stewart did with John
Yoo is another good document if you want to get the perspective of the people
who authorized this. I don't mean that as an endorsement of what happened...

[http://www.cc.com/video-clips/flktqb/the-daily-show-with-
jon...](http://www.cc.com/video-clips/flktqb/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-
exclusive---john-yoo-extended-interview-pt--1)

------
xer0x
Wow. Dark.

