
Ask HN: Been job searching for 3 years. Do I need speech therapy? - ccajas
I brought it up mostly since my mom and her cousin suggested that I go with a speech therapist to help me get job offers. I am a software engineer with experience, having worked in 4 past jobs as a SWE. But I have never had to look for jobs for so long before. In the past, I usually get an offer within a few months. But after 2014 it&#x27;s been different. I was laid off from a full-time job and I haven&#x27;t been able to get anything full-time since.<p>I am a self-taught programmer. have entered the industry 11 years ago but I don&#x27;t believe ageism is playing a part here. Still getting no adverse feedback on that as I look young for my age.<p>I have a few projects on Github and more recently I&#x27;m too burned out to do another programming project. But I continue to read articles and posts on the software industry, chat with others to stay abreast of local events.<p>My greatest bottleneck would be with the interviewing process. My resume is not the main problem, as I&#x27;ve gotten into many interviews with it. I have been able to get several phone interviews, but hard to pass them. My last on-site was in 2017.<p>Despite that, I have landed three contracts for freelance work, one from a former employer who already is familiar with me and my work, and the other two from Redditors who were seeking game developers. They were convinced by my projects and was able to deliver a good job to them.<p>So while I&#x27;m able to get some freelance work through unconventional means, what I am really looking for in the long run is a steady full-time job. Jobs applied through Indeed, StackOverflow, LinkedIn, etc. net me no offers.<p>A few family members have said that I show traits that might put me on the autism spectrum. I don&#x27;t have unemployed insurance. But my family wants me to go through a service that treats people with social disabilities in order to start working again. So is three years long enoug reason for doing so? Or is it approaching the norm for programmers?
======
rajacombinator
3 years of dedicated searching by a qualified programmer is not the norm. 3
months is probably more typical. You probably know this but are depressed and
in denial.

Speech therapy, impossible to say as an outsider, but why not try it? Your
family members probably have some reasons for thinking that could be a factor.
Whatever you’re doing now isn’t working, and you haven’t been able to diagnose
the problem, so getting outside advice seems prudent.

~~~
ccajas
Can you elaborate on being depressed? Maybe I'm not being in denial of
depression so much as being ignorant about the symptoms.

Here are some things I will state about my personal life: I have gradually
went on "silent mode" with most people I know. I stopped hanging out with
friends to dedicate more time to my job search. I don't really use Facebook
anymore. My friends aren't very effective job leads, anyways. They're not
really familiar with my kind of work, not even through a second-hand
connection.

------
istorical
Asking this question on a public forum is a leap of faith, and to be
applauded. Perhaps you'd get better feedback if you recorded yourself doing a
mock interview on your webcam if you have one, and then upload as
private/unlisted YouTube video, and then repost here but with a link to the
video as well. If you need to you could also just upload an audio recording if
you're worried about anonymity. Regardless, 3 years is a long period to
search. You definitely need to try tweaking variables in your approach.
There's something that's not working. It could be the # of companies you apply
to per day or per week. It could be the quality of your resume or application.
It could be your communication style. It could be your code. But without
demonstrating those things in a tangible way to others on this forum or to
other software developers online or in real life, no one can diagnose your
issue.

I encourage you to continue to open yourself up and make yourself vulnerable
enough to show those aspects of your job hunt persona and work to others so
they can give you candid feedback. Just be aware everyone online can only
speculate without seeing you do a mock interview, seeing your resume, seeing
your code.

If you've spent 3 years, you might consider hiring a software specializing
recruiter to work with you or finding one that works on commission. Getting
honest feedback from a third party like a recruiter is more valuable than this
forum. GL.

Lastly, it might be the 3 year gap itself that looks like a red flag to hiring
departments. You might want to come up with a story about how you were sailing
around the world, or spent time as an English teacher in Cambodia, or lived in
a monastery as a Catholic monk.

~~~
ccajas
For a majority of that time I have been taking the "shotgun approach" of
applying to tons of software development positions regardless of the company
and its size, and only trying to meet some of their requirements. Then I
realized that I was doing that too much.

In all, I probably have applied to somewhere between 1000 and 1500 job
listings in the past three years, if I were to take a guess. I have taken
about 40 first round interviews and about 10 on-sites. 90% of the jobs are
local (I live in Chicago), and the other 10% are out of state or remote.

I stopped trying that brute-force approach sometime last summer and have been
focusing more on research and applying only to companies that I truly have a
vested interest in. My interview-to-application ratio has improved so I can
now use my time more efficiently.

~~~
simonhfrost
I can’t think of 100 positions near me that suit my skillset let alone
1000-1500. Personally it sounds like your shotgun/brute-force approach is
spreading yourself thin and employers aren’t finding value in a ‘jack of all
trades’. I’d suggest working on personal projects with tech that you’re
interested in: it’ll strengthen your expertise, give you something to talk
about regarding your time off, and be a nice activity between the applying for
positions.

Good luck, and I’m sure even if it might take some time it’ll work out :).

------
WheelsAtLarge
Obviously, I don't know your situation but I know that self-taught programmers
are harder to quantify in terms of their skills. I've known self-taught
programmers that right beautiful code but I've also known self-taught
programmers that write spaghetti code. I know it's the same situation with cs
degree students but at least there I know they've gone through a training
program that at least tried to teach them the basics. I can't say the same
thing for self-taught programmers.

Keep in mind that for a while now IT careers have been the hot field so a lot
of people have gone into it to study. When you got your job 11 years ago that
was not really the case so employers can now be picky as to who they hire. I
know many of my friends complain that they've gotten jobs that don't pay what
they were expecting and that's basically because there's more supply than
demand for those possitions.

I know for a fact that if I'm hiring for a full-time position I would look for
a programmer that has a CS degree. My advice to you is to get some kind of
degree while you're looking for a job so at least you can show it in the
future.

I also suggest to you that you start working on your professional contacts and
create a network of people that understand what your skills are and let them
know that you're looking for a job. If people understand your skills they're
more likely to hire you or recommend you to an employer.

Also, keep this in mind, people are more likely to hire people that look like
themselves so when you go into these interviews make sure you don't stand out.
Make sure that from the start they feel that you are part of the team.

You should also look into going to mock interviews so that your interviewers
can let you know what they thought you did well and what you did bad.

Unless your speech is horrible then speech therapy classes will do little for
you.

~~~
ccajas
>My advice to you is to get some kind of degree while you're looking for a job
so at least you can show it in the future.

That's a possibility for me. I'd like to learn more low-level work through CS
or ECE. The million dollar question though is if it's feasible to enroll full-
time while also balancing it with a job that can pay all of your bills, and
keep your sanity. I'm not necessarily into night school or online school,
either.

>Also, keep this in mind, people are more likely to hire people that look like
themselves so when you go into these interviews make sure you don't stand out.
Make sure that from the start they feel that you are part of the team.

How can this be achieved before you have met most of the team? And does this
also mean in terms of physical appearance? I think they're more willing to be
flexible, though, if they are promoting hiring in conjunction with "culture
add" instead of culture fit.

>You should also look into going to mock interviews so that your interviewers
can let you know what they thought you did well and what you did bad.

I used Pramp a short time ago, and got rated 2/7 or 3/7 in most of the
qualities they grade on the mock interview. I can take more mock interviews,
so going to practice there again.

Also, although not a mock interview, I took the Triplebyte interview and got
some good feedback on what I need to work on the technical front. Looks like
those jobs where I had little physical contact with other programmers were
holding me back lots!

~~~
WheelsAtLarge
> if it's feasible to enroll full-time while also balancing it with a job that
> can pay all of your bills, and keep your sanity.

If you want to stay in the same career, you'll have to find a way. Night
school is your best bet.

>How can this be achieved before you have met most of the team?

Learn about the company before you go into the interview. Look at your average
programmer at other places. How do you differ? Learn from the interviews
you've done.

Also keep in mind that the more interviews you do the better the odds of
getting a job. Aim for a few a week until you get a job. Also don't be quick
to refuse a lower paying job. You can use it to get a better one. Recruters
are a great source for leads but they are not the only source. Look for other
lead sources.

Don't give up.

Good Luck!

------
bjourne
No one can know if you need speech therapy without first having heard your
voice. And even if we on HN could hear your voice, most of us aren't speech
therapists so how should we know?

That said, there is definitely an autism voice. It sounds "throutish" and is
especially apparent among women. Perhaps because non-autistic women in general
tend to have more melodic voices. However, that is a distinctive way of
speaking and not a speech impediment in itself.

So unless you believe that employers are discriminating against autistic
candidates, altering your voice won't help. But perhaps you can try and speak
louder -- it is often seen as a marker of confidence.

~~~
ccajas
Because of my financial situation I had to move back in with my mom a couple
of years ago. She is now recently telling me to seek some professional therapy
of some kind to improve my speaking ability since she also knows that I have
been consistently failing interviews. She's at retirement age and supporting
me financially is starting to mentally wear her out.

Can you elaborate on sounding "throutish"? I'm curious about that as I haven't
heard that before about autism.

------
jakeogh
I know this is almost cliche for such a specific question, but it's helped me
in so many ways, it's worth saying, exercise. Find a gym routine, let your
guard down, make friends there and stick to it. If you haven't tried it, it's
difficult to imagine how much it helps with life in general.

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
Where do you live? Don't need your zip/post code, just want to know the
city/country. I think this makes a huge difference. Based on your employment
history I don't see how your speech can be an issue unless your previous
employers were all super desperate for someone.

~~~
ccajas
I live in Chicago, IL and the majority of the jobs I apply to are in that
metro area. Occasionally, though, I draw interest from companies in the west
coast (including some larger tech companies and VC funded startups). So I feel
I have the skills and talent, but then get "slept on".

------
auganov
So how many interviews? In what way do you think you're failing verbal
interviews? You say getting offers in the past hasn't been a problem - this
suggests communication patterns might not be the key issue (assuming you
haven't regressed in that respect).

------
codesternews
Record your voice and answer Tell me about yourself? and put on the soundcloud
or somewhere and share it with HN.

I think HN might help you. But without listening your voice they can not able
to judge or answer.

------
smt88
Unfortunately, unemployment is sticky[1]. That _might_ be your entire problem.

When I'm hiring software people, I get three types of applications:

1) Self-taught, usually working in startups and small companies; often a
little bit older

2) CS grads, usually working at larger companies

3) Totally unqualified (non-technical applying for technical role, etc.)

It sounds like you're in bucket #2. As an employer, I'm naturally going to
wonder why you've been unable to find a job in a good market. Hiring (like
venture capital, dating, and all other human selection processes) is highly
social. We tend to want the people who are in high demand.

What makes my job hard is that a lot of the CVs in each bucket are very, very
similar. My job becomes finding ways to narrow the applications down from
hundreds to, hopefully, less than 10. But how do I do that?

You eventually start finding excuses to exclude someone: got an unrelated
Master's degree, went to a lesser-known school for undergrad, etc. These are
usually really bad filters, but unless you start using software to do this
process for you, there isn't much choice. You can't interview 100 people for
every role[2].

If I had to guess from my own experience, I'd guess that your biggest problem
(by far) is the gap in your resume. If you can find a way to retroactively
fill it (adding volunteering, descriptions of contract work, etc.) then you'll
be much better off.

My other guess is that many companies are getting more reluctant to hire self-
taught people. There are enough CS grads that you just don't need to hire
self-taught people anymore (if you don't want to), and if that person turns
out to suck, you can cover your ass by saying, "Well, they had the degree..."

If you've been burned out by doing Github projects, I think you should think
about whether a career change makes sense. You could also try to become a
freelancer. If you need to build up your portfolio, you can try to do work for
free for non-profits until people want to hire you.

I hope that helps! Unfortunately, there are no easy answers. Your family knows
you best and is probably right that seeking to learn and practice social
skills could help.

1\.
[https://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/07/labour-...](https://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/07/labour-
markets)

2\. I know there are startups created to solve this exact issue, but I despise
the idea of whiteboard-style interviews (even the online ones that work more
like homework or a standardized test)

~~~
ccajas
I most fit in bucket #1. I have a non-STEM degree and (aside from a few CS
classes) have been self taught, and primarily working with early stage
startups and small companies.

I worked at a mom & pop business, 2 small web agencies, and one startup. The
last three companies outsource a lot of their development work and I don't
have much physical contact with other developers on the job.

The situation with long term unemployed is an interesting one. Seems like some
employers have a "triage" system with applicants, where they put the long term
unemployed under the "unlikely to work regardless of treatment". I'm also
aware that more CS grads and bootcamp grads are entering the workforce so they
might find some of my skills only comparable to them and prefer them as a
choice. Experience depreciates so quickly in this field, it seems.

Another option is to go back to college to get a BS in CS (or maybe ECE since
I have an interest in low-level stuff) and somehow manage it full-time
attending in person while also being able to pay all of my bills.

~~~
smt88
College is free in some places, even to foreigners. I think Germany is one
such place.

A lot of great US schools give full tuition based on need now, and it's
possible to get a loan or find temporary work to pay the other bills.

------
muzani
You might just be nervous instead of needing "speech therapy". You could try
to practice and improve on sites like interviewing.io

~~~
ccajas
I'm kinda surprised that roughly 40 phone interviews hasn't been enough
practice to be competent. Interviewing.io is still not in public beta, and
I've already registered my e-mail.

------
KempFood
This is a great time. Low unemployment levels.

As long as you are happy to serve, there are lots of jobs.

Stay the course!

------
mdougherty
I have not read all the responses, so maybe this has been mentioned already.
But just in case it hasn't and if you think it has to do with your
communication style, I would highly recommend something like Toastmasters
([https://www.toastmasters.org](https://www.toastmasters.org)).

I did it for a few years way back when and it really helped me be a better
communicator, both on the job (and in job interviews) as well as in daily
life.

BTW, I have no affiliation, just a satisfied previous club member.

Hope that helps.

