
Australia’s Offshore Cruelty - jamesk_au
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/24/opinion/australias-offshore-cruelty.html
======
brc
Australians will take lecture from the New York Times after The USA perfects
its record.

This article is full of bias-pushing, including the idea that what happens to
the people on Nauru is mysterious or that they are in limbo, or that they are
in some type of concentration camp.

The families on Nauru are free to leave and return to their country of origin
any time they choose. They are free to participate in the local community and
are not behind barbed wire.

The people who have self-harmed have been in contact with the legal industry
inside Australia that prospers from their continued presence. These refugee
advocates, in full knowledge of the state of the people in Nauru, don't seek
to help them but seek to play them as pawns in their deadly game.

The undeniable facts of the matter was that when Australia temporarily relaxed
the border protection laws, by the governments own statistics, at least 1,500
men, women and children drowned at sea. Most well known was when a timber
fishing boat smashed into rocks in front of news cameras as people drowned.

Since the reinstatement of the laws, the only people who have been harmed are
those that have self-harmed.

There is zero doubt that the laws save lives, and crucially, also provide the
ability for people to support genuine refugee settlement, such as the
processing of 12,000 Syrian refugees, more than the USA is doing, despite the
USA having 14x the population of Australia.

The laws have broad support amongst Australian voters, including this voter.
The advocates for open borders and a 'let them in' attitude are a small but
noisy minority.

Australia still maintains a sizeable immigrant intake every year, drawing on
people from around the world.

Frankly, the rest of the world can call me and fellow citizens as many names
as they like but border protection is an important task for a Federal
government, and I'm totally comfortable with it.

~~~
dibbsonline
They call them refugees but a big point of contention is often they migrate
half way across the world and pay for a people smuggler, when 25000 genuine
refugees were accepted that didn't try to push their way in. This leaves a
black mark against your name and takes away the chance from a genuine refugee
that couldn't afford to migrate and pay a smuggler to get asylum.

Can we take more? probably.

Should we let people that can afford to migrate to Indonesia and pay a people
smugger to jump the queue get preference? Hell no.

------
darkseas
I deplore the current policies that treat refugees as criminals. Dutton is
engaging in the dog-whistle politics that got the former Prime Minister Abbott
elected.

And during the current federal election campaign, the Labor opposition can't
be seen as soft compared to the government (and is even claiming some credit
for setting up elements of the "offshore processing").

But, I cannot condone restarting the people smuggling trade that puts so many
in danger at sea (also in the Med). The bottom line is that we should be
targeting the people smugglers, not the people.

~~~
ryanlol
It's worth noting that many, possibly even most, of these people are not
actually refugees.

"refugee" is a rather well defined legal term.

~~~
benologist
Pretty pointless distinction, the issue is their treatment by the Australian
government not the environment they're leaving.

~~~
ps4fanboy
It is an incredibly important distinction, those found not to be valid are
asked to return to their country of origin, how many of the people in these
centers have been processed and refuse to leave?

~~~
benologist
Their status is x or it's not. Regardless they must be afforded basic human
rights including legal representation that could see their status changed.

~~~
ps4fanboy
Legal representation isnt a human right.

[http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-
rights/](http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/)

Additionally I haven't seen anything to suggest that the government is denying
them from taking on their own legal council?

~~~
benologist
If you google "australia refugee camps" you will find allegations of rape,
abuse, substandard living conditions, lack of medical treatment, indefinite
detention and more, denounced by the UN who call it illegal, denounced by
Amnesty International who have accused the government of violating ratified
rights too. Three people have set themselves on fire to kill themselves,
that's not a thing that happens where people are treated humanely.

It's also been made illegal to talk about the conditions of the camp if you
work with the guests of the internment camps. That shouldn't even be possible,
it's just basic oversight 101.

It's a bit sad that's not a human right yet but that document is a work in
progress.

~~~
ps4fanboy
Citation needed, but I agree all those things are bad and have nothing to do
with the concept of offshore processing, I agree that things should be more
transparent but I do not think that would work in the favor of those who are
detractors of the scheme. It should also be noted that Saudi Arabia is on the
council for human rights with the UN, so I wouldn't hold their opinion very
high.

~~~
benologist
You can google this stuff very easily, it's been reported a lot over the last
couple of years.

I also posted a few links here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11766158](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11766158)

Specific allegations of legal counsel being refused:

[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/17/australia-
refug...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/17/australia-refugees-
legal-sri-lanka)

[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/31/legal-aid-
denie...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/31/legal-aid-denied-
asylum-seekers-arrive-boat)

[http://www.theguardian.com/australia-
news/2015/oct/18/lawyer...](http://www.theguardian.com/australia-
news/2015/oct/18/lawyer-for-somali-refugee-raped-on-nauru-says-australia-
ignored-her-pleas)

[http://www.theguardian.com/australia-
news/2016/may/02/widow-...](http://www.theguardian.com/australia-
news/2016/may/02/widow-of-refugee-who-set-himself-alight-being-kept-in-hotel-
and-denied-a-lawyer)

~~~
ps4fanboy
Paid for legal counsel has been refused, you said its a human right to have
council not to have someone else pay for it.

------
cesther
Not just limited to refugees, see [http://www.smh.com.au/comment/australia-is-
a-bad-neighbour-a...](http://www.smh.com.au/comment/australia-is-a-bad-
neighbour-and-we-should-be-better-than-
this-20160501-goj6c9.html#ixzz47R1OMtGR)

The attitude and actions against East Timor are especially egregious.

------
benologist
There's been endless international accusations this program is illegal and
that human rights are being grossly violated. Hopefully there'll be a lovely
debate about it in the ICC one day.

[http://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/may/18/australias-
indefi...](http://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/may/18/australias-indefinite-
detention-of-refugees-illegal-un-rules)

[http://refugeeaction.org/information/how-australia-
violates-...](http://refugeeaction.org/information/how-australia-violates-
human-rights/)

[http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-24/australias-
immigration...](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-24/australias-immigration-
policies-violating-international-law/7195432)

------
prawn
Interestingly, the company outsourced to run the two off-shore "processing
centres" was started by an immigrant from Italy.

------
schoen
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru_Regional_Processing_Cent...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru_Regional_Processing_Centre)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manus_Regional_Processing_Cent...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manus_Regional_Processing_Centre)

------
ps4fanboy
Because more liberal refugee policy is working so great for Europe right now.
I have never seen any one who is for refugees/illegal immigrants (queue
jumpers) explain how a better system would work, just that the current system
is unjust and broken?

~~~
jameshart
Refugees and illegal immigrants are _not the same_. Seeking asylum is a legal
path to immigration in most countries - because most countries are signatories
to international treaties which oblige them to accept requests for asylum by
legitimate refugees. It is perfectly logical and sensible to be in favor of a
humane asylum system and vehemently opposed to illegal immigration.

~~~
ps4fanboy
How do you tell the difference when everyone who comes by boat claims to be a
refugee? Lets not forget they catch planes to Indonesia and then board boats,
why not claim asylum in Indonesia?

Lets all get on the same page as well, this is how the United Nation defines
an asylum seeker:

The United Nations 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and the
1967 Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees guides national legislation
concerning political asylum. Under these agreements, a refugee (or for cases
where repressing base means has been applied directly or environmentally to
the defoulé refugee) is a person who is outside their own country's territory
(or place of habitual residence if stateless) owing to fear of persecution on
protected grounds. Protected grounds include race, caste, nationality,
religion, political opinions and membership and/or participation in any
particular social group or social activities.

Fleeing poor living conditions or a civil war, do not fall under this
description.

~~~
jameshart
Through a humane, fast, fair asylum request handling process. It is acceptable
for the answer to "Can I claim asylum in your country?" to be "No". If that is
the case, it's in your - and the asylum seeker's - interests to come to that
conclusion as _quickly as possible_.

~~~
ps4fanboy
What if that is what is happening and the people in these detention centers
just refuse to go home, I have never seen a single article sharing the stories
of these refugees showing how they are actually legitimate refugees, just
affectionate language aimed at making you feel sorry for them and angry at the
government.

~~~
jameshart
You've only seen "affectionate language aimed at making you feel sorry for
them and angry at the government"? Which internet have you been using?

~~~
ps4fanboy
I am talking about the news/journalism, the avenue I would expect to actually
drill into the facts, I feel like if there was a human story of a specific
group of people who were legitimate Asylum Seekers it would have been written
by now, the fact that it hasnt doesnt fill me with confidence.

