
Ask HN: Is it possible for a non-programmer to bootstrap a SaaS business alone? - robwilliams88
https://clientgiant.us/is-it-possible-for-a-non-programmer-to-bootstrap-a-successful-saas-alone-d4b41a5438b0
======
throwawaysbdi
It's not possible unless you have enough money to pay a good developer salary.
I've been a part of one once, and the only reason I dealt with the clueless
founders was because they paid me better than a regular coding job.

So yeah, it's possible, if you're rich or can get funding before you've got a
product.

I've also been approached by countless guys asking me to work on their startup
for free or something like 10% equity. Bitch please. I've been a consultant
and run all sides of a business, what could you possibly bring to the table
besides a nebulous and nearly worthless idea?

To those guys I've started asking for 60% equity and they usually walk away as
if it was an insult.

Let me be clear about it. You can run a business with engineers alone and
write software. Even one single engineer can run his own software business. If
was running a start-up that makes software with two founders do I want one of
them to make 0% of the product?

~~~
joe563323
> To those guys I've started asking for 60% equity and they usually walk away
> as if it was an insult.

Do you advice the developer to accept the offer for 60% equity ?.

~~~
throwawaysbdi
Sure, if you think the idea is worth it

------
mythrwy
Absolutely.

I contracted for a person who built a small but very profitable SaaS app using
contractors.

There are some caveats though. The person has a smattering of technical
knowledge which prevented him from being completely taken advantage of by
contractors. And he was an effective manager (a rarity to be sure). And he
knew exactly what he wanted and stayed on top of details of how it was
implemented. Although not a necessarily a "programmer" he also knew enough
about using Git to review/merge changes. And perhaps most importantly he had
the financial backing to complete the project.

I've also worked for other people who didn't have these qualities but figured
they'd just hire some people to build some stuff without keeping on top of it
or in many cases having a clear vision of what they wanted. Predictably these
projects didn't turn out well for them.

But yes, it is possible. I've seen it.

~~~
kaspm
The key here is that he had the financial backing to complete the project.
Unclear whether the original poster has enough of a cash runway to keep even a
team of 1 at a fulltime salary.

~~~
mythrwy
You don't need a full time team or person (the guy I worked for doesn't have
that) as long as you can deploy and manage the hosting and have someone you
can call if there is an issue.

But no way to get building/operating capital? In general forget about it. Most
likely not going to fly.

I'm convinced lots of people do this because I've personally seen at least
two. But even more try and spend a bunch of money and fail (seen a lot more
than 2 of those). The ones who succeed generally don't hang around HN posting
startup related buzzwords though so it's understandable they are presumed not
to exist.

------
swalsh
I'm in the process of bootstrapping a SaaS. I'll say it's absolutely possible,
or more precisely, it has equal chance as the programmer going it alone has.
The simple reason being that the product is only a tiny piece of the puzzle.

I find the opposite question equally as valid. Why is it assumed that a
programmer can bootstrap a successful SaaS alone?

To build an application, you need someone who can identify an opportunity
(product market fit.... and that's harder than most would assume). Of course
even if you have something customers want, you still often need to help them
want it... so you need a marketing/sales guy.

Implementation is the last piece of the puzzle. I think these are completely
different skill sets, and a successful company 90% of the time needs 2 or more
people to pull it off.

~~~
flukus
The product is still the most important piece that you can't do with out. You
might be able to get by without a marketer/sales guy, but without a product
you're selling vaporware. All the other jobs can be done (poorly) by the
programmer, but the reverse isn't true.

Just look at all those scams on kickstarter, the one thing they're missing is
a viable product that an engineer can tell them is impossible.

------
hluska
It is freakishly hard to build a successful SAAS if you have funding and a
solid team. Doing it alone as a solo non-programmer has got to feel like
trying to drink the ocean.

I've never been able to figure out how non-programmers can sift through mounds
of freelancers to find a good developer. And, even if they find good
developers, I have no idea how they manage to motivate and retain them.

I'd love to read some stories from successful solo non-programmers. If anyone
has some links, please share...

~~~
trustfundbaby
Here's one
[https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/convertkit](https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/convertkit)
... follow the link to their blog about the "Web app Saas challenge" and they
outline the entire process they took.

Wildly successful too ... $600k MRR in just a few years
[https://convertkit.baremetrics.com/](https://convertkit.baremetrics.com/)

------
andrewstuart
Just learn to program, every minute that you spend futzing around trying to
find developers who'll do it for free or little money is one minute further
away from you have the development skills to write your own product.

~~~
joe563323
The truth is not every one can write code, i am not being arrogant but it is
true.

------
cgrusden
After reading the comments, no one asked about "which"SaaS business model. Yes
it is _extremely_ possible to bootstrap a SaaS business alone depending on
which model. Example: help a reporter out that peter shankman grew into a
Monster of a SaaS business.

Another example? GroupOn. Was a email newsletter first.

I've seen a group of guys go sign up for Wordpress and were generating
$2,000/month themselves for a kickstarter-like concept by using plugins. Not
all SaaS businesses require a programmer, especially these days.

Will certain models require a programmer at some point? Maybe. Maybe someone
just wants to build 10 SaaS newsletter sites that all generate $1,000/month
each... $10kMRR in total with no need to hire a programmer.

------
bikamonki
It depends entirely on the SAAS. A non-programmer friend of mine paid peanuts
to an off-shore programmer to build an über simple slack-clone with Firebase +
Angular + Phonegap. He has two paying customers so far. Will this scale?
Probably not but if he reaches 20 customers he'll have the money for the
rockstars.

This friend is a sales ninja, the tech is not an obstacle for him.

~~~
ilaksh
First of all, a Slack clone with Firebase/Angular/Phonegap is not simple in
terms of the engineering effort. If he found someone to implement a working
system like that for peanuts, then he did not bootstap his startup alone, he
did it by taking advantage of the other guy, and the fact that he does not
acknowledge the other guy did 90% percent of it and describes it as a 'solo'
effort just means that he is an asshole.

~~~
antisthenes
Are you willing to pay for my education to become a software engineer, so I
can code my own products?

If not, then you're the asshole.

------
JamesBarney
I always tell non-tech people that if you have an idea, and expect a developer
to code it for equity, you NEED to bring purchase orders to the table first.

[0] Obviously there are exceptions for instance if you have deep industry
experience and contacts(with buying authority) but these people usually also
have the money to pay a developer to implement their idea.

------
ilaksh
If the guy has to 'hire freelancers' to implement the actual product, then 99
out of a 100 cases of this, he is not actually doing it alone. He is just
discounting the contributions of core members of his team that are being
poorly compensated.

If it were the case that this was normally a group of freelancers making a
killing, charging high consulting rates, it would be different. But almost in
all cases they are using 'freelance developers' because they cannot afford to
pay market rates in the US and can't afford benefits. Even in those other
countries, there is a global economy. Those developers might be doing OK, but
they are not getting wealthy.

If you try to do it as if the developers are separate and not a core part of
the team, that can't work either. Either you acknowledge how critical they are
to your business or you just take advantage of them and hope they don't find
something better and your business doesn't fall apart.

------
gnicholas
Perhaps by possible, but probably not advisable. Consider the obvious
alternatives:

(1) having a technical cofounder, or

(2) raising money instead of bootstrapping.

Either of these alternatives will take time — to find the cofounder or the
funders — but this is nothing compared with how much slower you'll move if
you're bootstrapping and don't have a pot of cash to fund development with.

And the better your idea is, the easier it will be to find suitable cofounders
or funders. So if you find these two tasks to be difficult, this tends to
indicate that the underlying idea is not as strong.

My background: I am a non-technical founder of a software startup that has
been mostly bootstrapped and mostly solo. My path was made possible/easier by
the fact that I have savings from having been a corporate lawyer, and by my
wife's stable/good job. Without both of these things, launching a startup
would have been even harder.

------
jdoliner
I think it's theoretically possible, if you have enough money or are
persuasive enough, to bootstrap a SaaS company using some combination of
contractors, friends, cofounders and employees. However it's really them
that's bootstrapping the company, not you. However, the more likely outcome,
and hopefully the one that the author is headed for, is that by building your
company you cease to be a non-programmer and become a programmer. The author
already seems far enough down that path that I think he's kind of
shortchanging himself with the moniker.

There's really no hidden secret here, just build if you don't know how learn.
It's the best way to learn and the only way to build. No one knows how to
build something before they do it.

------
amorphid
I (developer) chatted with a water quality consultant during a plane flight.
Consultant mentioned the CRM for his niche business sucked. He asked if I'd be
interested in building a CRM for no money upfront, instead making money later
(a percentage of his business I could sell, a license fee, profit sharing,
whatever). I realized in that moment once the app was built, I wouldn't need
him at all, and that I could sell it (let's assume it'd be a valuable product)
to all of his competitors. Either he wins, or I win, but there wasn't​ a
scenario I could imagine where we both won. I explained that to him, and he
was no longer interested in having me build the software for him.

~~~
swalsh
Why do you assume that water quality consultants would buy a software product
from you alone? Selling is hard, and a big part of it is knowing your
customer, and gaining their trust. This guy would have a much better chance at
accomplishing that. He had a lot of value, you just failed to see it. He made
the right choice by finding someone else.

~~~
amorphid
The point I was trying to make is that making an MVP water consulting CRM for
a single customer isn't very equitable for me. The amount of money I'd earn
for the time invested feels like it'd be less than what I'd likely earn as a
consultant for anyone paying an hourly rate.

If I decided to build a CRM for the water consultant market, he brings little
to the table for me. What I mean I can find a water consultant that isn't him.
If I approached him, pitching on the idea for a CRM that would cost 50% less
and be 2x more efficient, he'd likely be open to the idea of at least
discussing it. If he said no, I'd simply find a different water consultant to
talk to. He if said he'd talk, but only if he got to own after I built it, I'd
turn him down.

For him to be a viable non-technical cofounder, he'd need to stop being a
water consultant, and start being a cofounder. Those are two separate jobs. He
didn't​ want to discuss that. He could bring value, maybe. But he wanted to
own the majority of something he couldn't buy or build himself, and he wasn't
willing to become a founder. I wasn't interested in doing business like that.

I was once tried being the non-technical cofounder. In the end I decided it
was easier to learn how to code, and that path was super hard.

~~~
swalsh
"For him to be a viable non-technical cofounder, he'd need to stop being a
water consultant, and start being a cofounder. "

This part I completely agree with you. If you're splitting equality
(relatively) equally. He should be as committed as you are, if he's not, than
you need to be compensated extra for it.

------
trustfundbaby
This is a timely topic, because I'm currently studying the process the founder
of ConvertKit (designer) took to get his SaaS off the ground with just his own
$5k.

[https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/convertkit](https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/convertkit)
... follow the link to his blog about the "Web app challenge" and he blogs
about the entire process as it happened

Wildly successful too ... $600k MRR in just a few years
[https://convertkit.baremetrics.com/](https://convertkit.baremetrics.com/)

------
davidivadavid
I think Nathan Barry (ConvertKit founder) is originally a designer? He might
still know how to code. I'm not sure. But his business seems successful
enough. There are probably dozens of less well-known examples.

Edit: recent article by GrooveHQ (non-technical) founder that may be relevant:
[https://www.groovehq.com/blog/non-technical-
founder](https://www.groovehq.com/blog/non-technical-founder)

~~~
davidivadavid
Erm, let's say _I_ saw it recently.

------
oliwarner
Developers are more than code monkeys to order around, they can tell you how
feasible your ideas are. If you hire efficiently, they also come with market-
relevant experience.

So while you probably could do this in your bedroom, alone-alone, chances are
you'll end up with an insecure, unstable, broken hacky mutant that costs too
much to run and includes things people don't actually want.

But I would say that. I'm the guy you should hire :)

------
akanet
While possible, it doesn't seem advisable. If you could bootstrap a successful
SaaS as a solo nonprogrammer, you probably didn't need to.

------
nunez
Sure if you have enough money to pay people to do the work. Architects don't
build houses by themselves most of the time :)

This is optimal if your goal is to focus entirely on sales and raising, as
this effectively lets you sell while building the product, which is really
hard to do when bootstrapping everything yourself.

Good luck!

------
t3soro
No, that's idiotic. You will hardly understand what you're selling. Learn what
you're doing.

------
codeclown
Hey Rob, it is certainly possible for you to bootstrap a successful SaaS.
Without money to pay a developer, though, your best bet would be to learn to
code yourself enough to put out a product to test the waters. Once that gains
some traction, partnerships and funding would be easier to come by. That path
would probably eat up 3-9 months given the bulk of your spare time and energy.

Why do you think you want to build a SaaS product though? It seems to me like
you're already putting out content pretty regularly. I would recommend moving
it off medium to a domain you control and start getting some emails for your
list. You can still publish there, but link back to your own site. With an
email list, your readers can turn into your customers. As a designer, you can
then start building products like books, courses, podcasts, guides you name it
which will let you take advantage of the skills you have already. Check out
Design for Hackers, for example. Why not use the edge you built up instead of
starting at a disadvantage?

------
rebelidealist
As a founder of 6 figure MRR SaaS, it is possible if you can hire __good
__developers overseas for less. That said it is really useful if you know a
little code or have someone who can vet good coders for you. Take your time
with hiring.

~~~
Main_
I'm someone who is a non-coder, can you please recommend some books/blogs on
how to build a successful SaaS business?

------
scardine
Of course it is. If you know the problem space very well and are able to
conceive and sell a good solution, the code behind it matters very little.

------
wtvanhest
Sure its possible, but coworking spaces are full of people trying it and I
cannot think of a single example where it has worked.

------
known
Analogy; Can a non-programmer manage programmers?

~~~
joe563323
Are you kidding. All the people who can not program become managers. Its the
truth. Exceptional are the Big-4 companies.

------
stanislavb
No

------
nickthemagicman
Anything is possible if you just dollow your freams!

------
senior_james
I'm a developer and have helped bootstrap a couple of SaaS. The problem is
that in most partnerships like this, the other person can usually only offer
ideas or something very minimal with regards to the success of the business.

I usually end up just doing everything myself. Unless you offer something
besides just the idea (money, contacts, industry experience). The partnership
will not work.

I've had to quit a few startups over the years myself because my co-founder
ended up only offering some ideas. This starts to become a perceived
manager->employee relationship (since as the developer, you are doing the
majority of the work) and because the idea is their only contribution, it's a
problem when it needs to be changed.

This also smacks of someone that loves the romanticized idea of running a
startup, but isn't willing to actually put the work into it.

Now, I will only go into business with other people that have at least a
couple of years of business experience.

~~~
bananaboy
Yeah in a startup or small business I think every founder needs to do work.
You can't have people who only essentially generate work for others. There are
so many things that need doing when you're small that aren't directly related
to development but still need to be done: applying for grants, tax
concessions, marketing, building communities, competitive analysis, market
research, payroll, accounting.

~~~
kaspm
But this is the fundamental point of the article. It's very difficult to do
marketing, communities, competitive analysis market research payroll and
accounting when you have no money and no product. So what can non-technical
co-founder bring to bootstrapping a SaaS platform with just ideas? May not be
possible.

~~~
rublev
>But this is the fundamental point of the article. It's very difficult to do
marketing, communities, competitive analysis market research payroll and
accounting when you have no money and no product. So what can non-technical
co-founder bring to bootstrapping a SaaS platform with just ideas? May not be
possible.

You hustle? You sit there and think what is the literal next step, then you
try that thing, reevaluate, and repeat. Then keep doing it until you're rich,
broke, or dead. There is _always_ something you can be doing.

~~~
alextheparrot
For some reason the image of a mouse in a cage running on a wheel with a
person shouting at it popped into my head here; it reads like the transcript
of YouTube motivational videos that on the surface has substance, but are
actually hollow.

Doing something is a strict superset of doing something valuable, the key is
to bring value, which the quoted comment was addressing.

------
delabisolz
Zuckeberg did it right? Atleast till it was viable? JUST DO IT.

~~~
t3soro
Zuckerberg was a programmer.

~~~
throwaway2016a
Also Facebook is not SaaS (at least not the way most people think of it).

------
tomwhita
F those people that tell you it's not possible. I barely knew how to code and
I started a SaaS business. I worked my ass off to become an adequate coder and
sell the product to customers. It's been three hard years and now it's
starting to pay off. If you have a solution to a problem, one that people will
pay for. You have a business. Keep pushing. You can do anything if you're
willing to work hard for it. Take help when you can get it. Learn everything
you can. Enjoy the journey.

~~~
marvy
You're saying it's possible, but isn't your anecdote saying the opposite? That
is, you may have started out as a non-programmer, but by the time things are
going well, you have become one. In your own words: you've "become an adequate
coder". It seems to me that the author of the post is hoping to avoid that: he
wants to succeed and remain a weak coder. Or am I misreading what he wrote?

