
Japan offers most paid leave for fathers but few take it, UNICEF report finds - Ultramanoid
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/06/13/national/social-issues/japan-offers-paid-leave-fathers-worldwide-take-unicef-reports-finds/
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radcon
> the third most common reason given was an “unfavorable atmosphere” in the
> workplace. The top reason was staff shortages and the second most common
> reason was that their company did not offer it.

If the company doesn't offer it, then they don't have a choice.

If they're short-staffed, that's (most likely) an atmosphere the company has
created to keep labor costs low.

So the #2 reason shouldn't even be on the list, and #1 is essentially the same
as #3. In other words, "unfavorable atmosphere" is the #1 reason for choosing
not to take available paternity leave. This is no different from American
companies that offer "unlimited" vacation time but create a toxic work culture
where everyone feels guilty for using it.

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weberc2
I would be curious if these companies put similar pressure on women to forego
their maternity leave, or if the pressure is only directed against men.

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RulingWalnut
Anecdotally, my female Japanese friend outright rejected the idea of going
back to work after having a kid and said that lots of her friends feel the
same way. There seems to be a strong cultural thing around women becoming
stay-at-home mom's instead of rejoining the workforce.

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bojo
I worked at various companies over there and bluntly asked why no one used up
their PTO and/or took vacations longer than a day or two. The reply was
always: taking any non-trivial amount of time off is perceived to be the sign
of a lazy person, I don’t want to make waves.

This lines up quite well with their expression, “the nail that stands up gets
hammered down.” Don’t stand out.

There have been cases where people taking a full week off were let go due to
this perception of ineffectiveness. Obviously there is societal pressure going
on here, but I truly hope it changes.

~~~
skizm
Is there an abundance of competent workers over there? Companies can easily
replace people? It just seems like bad economics to fire people for taking a
week off, even if they're perceived as lazy in the short term. It is usually a
lot more expensive to hire and train replacements. (I thought)

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JamesBarney
The labor market in Japan works very differently than in the U.S. Once your
fired or forced to quit from your salaryman job it's much harder to find a
replacement than in the U.S.

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lotsofpulp
That must mean there are few options to earn income (with an acceptable level
of risk) in order for employers to have that much negotiating power over the
employee.

The acceptable level of risk is, of course, subjective and what is
unacceptable in certain societies might be fine in other societies.

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bojo
Japan has traditionally moved people forward lockstep. For example, you and 19
other people join Very Large Company on April 1st (their fiscal new year). You
will all be inserted into a department and work there for 3 years. You will
all be promoted at the same time. You will all revolve around to new
departments in 3 years.

If you are an outlier and get ousted from Very Large Company you are now
unable to join a new company lockstep with college graduates. You are a mid-
career outcast, and now need to start considering other options.

To be fair, I feel like the IT industry is a little more lenient in this
regard. I met a lot of incoming mid-career folk at the game company I worked
at, for example.

I think as a society this is changing, especially now that the younger
generation is more inclined to "do their own thing" \- work part time jobs,
not work, rotate through jobs, etc., but it may take some time to deeply
change until the previous generation rotates out of the work force (which
won't happen soon, something like 60% of the workforce is over 50 right now).

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LiquidSky
>Of those who did not take advantage of it, the third most common reason given
was an “unfavorable atmosphere” in the workplace.

This brings to mind stories of workplaces in the US that officially offer
unlimited vacation time but no one ever takes it because actually using it is
viewed so negatively.

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toomuchtodo
There is no such thing as unlimited vacation time. If you want to know how
much vacation time you have, ask your HR manager at your “unlimited vacation”
org how much vacation they’re required to pay out by law if you separate from
the org.

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maxxxxx
I interviewed with such a place and started questioning them about what this
really means. How much do people take on average? What would be unacceptable?
The response was pretty much something like "You can take off when the
workload and your projects allow it" and they didn't give any hard numbers. It
made me wonder if people there actually take less vacation than the usual few
weeks.

~~~
rhino369
In my experience it leads to less vacation for most workers. But some people
take advantage of it without raising suspicion.

The average worker has no baseline for what amount is appropriate. They think
they are always too busy. Their boss thinks they are too busy.

But some people get more by being untransparent. If I’m going on a fishing
trip, I don’t tell anyone. If something comes up, “I’m out of the office, I
can meet when I get back or do a call.” Nobody knows if I’m traveling for work
or vacation.

~~~
chosenbreed37
> But some people get more by being untransparent.

Untransparent...mmm...I think I like I that word :)

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jamesvandyne
It really depends on the culture of the company. In my company (95%
Japanese/non-gaishiki-kei) it’s the norm for people to take a couple months
off when there’s a new addition to the family. I took 6 weeks when my son was
born and nobody batted an eye. My friend, who also had a child around the same
time me, couldn’t take parental leave, but said he’d be working remotely a lot
instead.

I’m optimistic it will change, but probably not for another long while.

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tjpnz
I work with a guy who took it for three months without having worked a day at
the place besides orientation. The company knew about his situation prior to
hiring him and were totally fine with it - they even arranged gifts etc. The
place I work is Japanese but takes a lot of pride in shunning the work culture
commonly associated with Japan.

~~~
stringyham
I love reading these kind of stories about Japanese companies. I hope there
are more and more of these as the current work culture over there is pretty
depressing to me.

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DigitalVerse
To me, the most surprising factoid in this article is that Estonia offers 86
weeks of maternity leave! That's so much! And with such a low cost of
living... goodbye, Bay Area.

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throw0101a
Iceland basically made paternity leave 'mandatory':

> _The country passed a law that granted three months of non-transferable
> parental leave to both mothers and fathers; an additional three months of
> leave was granted to the couple to share as they chose._

> _By most measures, the law was a rousing success. About 90 percent of
> Icelandic fathers take leave. In 2007 (the most recent year for which I’ve
> found data), fathers in Iceland took 101 days of parental leave—almost
> exactly 1 /3 of the family’s total benefit days._

* [https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/04/paternity-leave-in-...](https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/04/paternity-leave-in-iceland-helps-mom-succeed-at-work-and-dad-succeed-at-home.html)

Of course fathers can choose to take zero, but then that time is basically
lost. Further changes (ibid):

> _The law was such a success that Iceland recently went a few steps further
> with a 5-2-5 policy: Mothers and fathers will soon each be entitled to five
> months of non-transferable leave, with an additional two months of shared
> leave._

Anyone from IS that can comment on this policy?

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darkteflon
I worked for a US law firm in Tokyo for a number of years; my paternity leave
was 3 days and I was expected to field emails as and when needed.

It is a race to the bottom, my friends - believe it.

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lostmymind66
It's probably because of the work culture. Many people won't leave work at the
end of the day until the boss leaves.

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newqer
They just need to do like me! Start seeing their wife as the boss!

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chasd00
when i request vacation the email reads "boss says i won't be at work between
the following dates."

