
Developers are not always rich people - buzzlightyear
I really struggled through university, and have been lucky to find employment. But with debts of over $50k and living in a UK city to be close to work is slowly bankrupting me. I am loosing. I am loosing my health, and slowly my will to live. I am now sitting outside a cafe using my phone on free WiFi as I have had my telephone lines disconnected and am building up rent arrears.<p>I wonder how many people are in this situation? And how it makes you feel? Where can I turn to get help??
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kstenerud
You do whatever it takes to survive. I still remember making $20 last the
entire month for food for two early in my career. I remember being rendered
destitute. Twice. I remember having the tax man on my ass for a ton of money I
didn't have after a particularly catastrophic failure. I've lived in 2 square
meters of space while looking for a job. During that time, I wrote
[https://github.com/kstenerud/Musashi](https://github.com/kstenerud/Musashi)
to keep myself sane. I've begged family members for a plane ticket just to get
me the hell out of a bad situation. Now, 20 years into my career, I _finally_
have some stability. Part of that is my fault, since I'm entrepreneurial at
heart, and I'm too stubborn to lie down and die.

When you're not born rich, you have a big challenge ahead of you. You fight,
or you die.

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organsnyder
Please, get in touch with family and/or a mental health professional. It's
touch to tell from this brief post, but I wonder if you might be suffering
from depression or another illness. This could easily lead to difficulty with
getting work done, as well as having the confidence to endure the emotional
roller coaster that job-hunting often entails.

More to your question: I'm not sure if you're currently employed or not.
Either way, it looks like you need to find a new job, so that's what I'm
focusing on.

Almost all of my job prospects have been from people I already know. In fact,
my next job (starts in two weeks) came out of a chance encounter at a
conference (I happened to sit at the right table for lunch). If you're job-
hunting, you should be going to at least one meetup or other tech event per
week—ideally more. Also, keep networking even when you're not actively
looking—you never know when that might pay off (or you might be able to
benefit them) in the future.

Think of anyone that you know that might have a lead—former professors,
friends, people you know from church or other social organizations, etc.—and
see if you can meet them over coffee. Applying for a job with an inside
connection is much more effective than applying blind.

I've been where you are—I had an unconventional resume, and the wrong bullet
points on my resume (tons of Java experience in an area where most of the big
enterprises are on .NET). It sucks. The feeling of repeated rejection is soul-
crushing. The amount of perseverance needed is staggering. But, I can say with
a high amount of certainty that you can get through this. Don't be afraid to
ask for help—no one should have to go through this alone.

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L-boog
I'm a developer. I live in my car. I have a job but I don't make much. On the
weekends I escape to libraries and try to find shaded areas before and after
hours in parks. This past weekend was especially miserable because it was a 3
day weekend with nothing open. I spent a lot of hours just sitting in my car
doing nothing. I find refuge at night at Walmart lots. It's not a good life
but I'm managing. It keeps me hungry. I'm pushing myself harder than ever to
learn and hopefully get a better job. Keep your head up, and remember this is
only a temporary situation, it will pass.

~~~
vishalzone2002
for real? oh my...i am curious, what kind of developer and where? Maybe i can
refer you to someone..

~~~
L-boog
I'm a front end developer, but I've been stretching my legs in the backend
lately. I'm in the southeast US. I'd rather stay anonymous and not have this
situation tied to me. Nobody knows I live like this.

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mattbgates
My first job as a programmer in 2011, the boss was paying me US$10 an hour to
code in Visual Basic 6. He gave me a $2 raise ($12) after 6 months of proving
that I was a good coder. A year later, I ended up having to get a new job
because I had debt that I had to pay off and didn't want to take 10 years to
do it. Eventually got a job working a web developer for $16-$18/hr.

The advice I have: If you have a college degree or at least 5 years experience
in programming, know that you more valuable than you think you are. Also: The
reality is, you are replaceable. Keep moving on til you are loving what you do
and doing what you love .. and getting paid to do it.

~~~
carrotleads
it baffles me how devs can work for those rates...

no wonder I still see Ads for C++ contracts in Melbourne for $50/hr for a mid-
senior level job... clearly there are people who work at those rates...

the biggest thing holding dev salaries back is cause many devs love what they
do..

~~~
shoo
I guess it depends where you're living, and what opportunities you are aware
of - or are available to you - and what your next best alternative is.

If you really need the money and don't have another option then working for a
very modest quantity of money sure seems like a much better deal than working
for none at all.

~~~
k__
Also the unawareness happens in the other direction too.

I know a bunch of freelancers who get paid a ridiculous amount of money for
simple web-dev stuff, just because the companies they work for don't know
anything about this and are simply happy to have found a dev.

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Someone1234
Move out of London. You don't need to be "close to work" a lot of people
commute in every day. And, yes, train tickets are insanely expensive but I bet
it is still a saving all things taken into account.

$50k is do-able even in South England, I mean you won't be a movie star, but
you'll get by on rent and so on until your salary increases. It is only London
where that won't cut it.

~~~
unfunco
This. London is a shit-show, filled with people that don't want to talk to
you, and without wanting to mention the old rat-race cliché, that's precisely
what it is; selfish, greedy, and unhealthy.

I lived in London for five years and it was the most miserable five years of
my life, rent was £1,000 a month for a shared house in Camden, and with bills
on top the majority of my salary was eaten up by living. I moved from London
to Liverpool, my salary actually increased, and my rent halved for my own
apartment. Now I have savings, my office is walking distance (8 minutes, to be
precise), and the city is friendlier, safer, and being smaller it is made much
easier for seeing friends and getting out more.

What London doesn't want you to know is that there's a whole country outside
of it, with much better living conditions.

If moving is not an option, you can look at reducing and removing your debt
using a charity, they arrange monthly payments straight out of your salary so
that you're not building arrears, Martin Lewis normally has good advice on
this sort of stuff: [http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/loans/debt-help-
plan](http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/loans/debt-help-plan) – the same
website will also help you lower your outgoings.

Most importantly, $50k is not a lifetime of struggling, and you should look at
getting a payment plan sorted before it becomes usurious. I've seen debt do
horrible things to people and families, it's better to fix the roof whilst the
sun is shining. Talk to someone.

~~~
haack
I was about to comment explaining how this isn't everyone's experience, and
how I love London, but realised this isn't the thread to do that.

Yes, if you want to save money then don't live in London. I'm currently
commuting 1.5 hours and walking some of the journey to shave off as much money
as I can from my commute expenses. Trains still aren't cheap and travelling is
exhausting but it saves me money. In my experience London salaries are higher
on average (£2-4k) but not necessarily.

Maybe try freelancing in the evenings to scrape together more money.

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goodguy1
You are a skilled university graduate! Keep your hopes high, and don't let
your struggles overwhelm you. Whether or not you decide to continue working in
software, or choose another path, you will be able to find happiness somehow,
believe in that! Perhaps you should find a part time job to supplement your
income, or look for a new developing job. Don't give up!

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Bahamut
Just $50k? I have $200k of debt :( . Thankfully software engineering has been
a good profession to me, but it has forced me to be ruthless about salary
negotiations and focusing on my career.

Honestly, you could be in a much worse position - I was homeless out of grad
school with no prospect of netting a job...for 2 1/2 years. I spent one week
eating nothing but oatmeal due to lack of money.

Focus on saving your money and using it judiciously - don't pay your debts
until you can safely manage it. Accruing them in the long term is better than
making irresponsible payments.

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noxToken
I hear that long commutes are a mostly American. I can't truly attest to that,
but I'm in the 30+ minutes boat. I would love to move closer, but good housing
near my office is prohibitively expensive, and cheap housing is, well - you
definitely get what you (don't) pay for.

I've done the math, and the savings are worth it for me. Instead of idling in
traffic like most commuters, I make the sleep sacrifice and show up about 15
minutes early. According to my car's built-in fuel economy monitor, I get
about 16-18 MPG on a typical rush hour commute and 26-30 MPG if I'm early.
That's huge.

In addition to your commute, see where else you can cut costs. Americans
spends nearly $8 daily on lunch. Bringing your own $3 lunch would save you
about $100 monthly. You can also look into budget friendly foods that would
put you at $1.50 per meal which would increase those savings to $130 per
month.

I don't know your overall financial situation, but consider creating a list of
all of your monthly expenses. Before you even begin budgeting, start striking
out items that are more luxury than necessity. Cut cable in favor of Netflix
only. Hell, go rogue and stream everything. Drop your expensive phone plan for
something simple. Consider cutting data out of your phone plan altogether. I
don't know how connected London is, but I'm almost always in range of an
access point.

If all else fails, look to family for some funds. Hope that helped.

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JamesReeves1988
Move out of London.. There are plenty of other developer roles around the UK
which pay a little less but the living costs are much less.

I live in Wales, and my mortgage is £320 a month, taking my bills into account
that is roughly around £800/£900 a month.

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deeviant
It gets better. I ate rice/pinto beans for 80% of my meals the first year out
of college(I graduated in 2010, not a good time even in the Bay Area, Ca), I
defaulted on some bills, my first job sucked and paid like crap and wasn't
even an actual dev position.

But it eventually worked itself out. 5 years later, I have solid roof over my
head, a good job, a wonderful wife and a great life. I think the most
important thing for me to realize is that _those things_ , being the stuff
that eats us up inside, like bills, money and jobs, are really a small part of
life, and you can never let them rule your life.

Whatever you do, don't sell yourself short. Always be looking and open for any
opportunities that present themselves to you. Be on your own advocate and make
choices that are best for you, not your employer, parents or anything else. In
the end, the only truly required attribute, in my humble opinion, that is
required to be successful as a software developer(and many other things), is
persistence. Persistence to learn the basics, persistence to hone your skills
and persistence to look and keep looking until you find a job that fits your
needs.

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mariuskaunietis
As one person told me: "Rich are not who earn a lot, but those who spends
wisely". I'm from Lithuania, and I see people migrating to UK for a better
living. They mainly do the "dirty work" \- wash dishes, load trucks, but they
manage to save money. I already earn more than average lithuanian, even though
I haven't event finished University yet.

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CyberFonic
There are no easy answers. First things first, you are better off than most:
you have a degree in a good field, a job and live in the UK.

Many of us don't choose to have a landline. Pre-paid mobiles can be an
excellent deal in the UK.

Nobody gets rich by spending more than they earn. I am guessing you are being
paid reasonably well. More than a recent immigrant, etc. So as painful as it
might be, you need to adjust your costs (rent is probably one of the biggest
ones) so that you are spending less. As many other HN readers have pointed
out, you could move to somewhere with more affordable rents, either commute or
find a job closer to home. Do you spend money on eating out? new toys? a car
you hardly use? They are all discretionary spends that you could cut back on.

If you are really suffering from burn-out, depression, some illness, then get
that attended to urgently.

~~~
pyb
You're really making a lot of wild guesses here ("paid reasonably well",
"toys", "car"). The OP might read this kind of answer as somewhat patronizing.

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mandeepj
Look what skill sets are needed by high paying jobs then try to get those
skills. There are lot of courses online. You can also do part time
freelancing. There are lot of developers they charge $100+ per hour. Giving up
is not an option. Only you can do it for yourself.

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lcmatt
Get out of London ASAP. £32k a year is a respectable wage and you'll find it
goes a long way once you move further north (I'm on a very similar wage and
live in Leeds)

First thing is you need that roof over your head, if possible clear those
arrears as a priority - moving will become more difficult if you leave with
debt as no agency or landlord will touch you and it will damage your credit
rating for years.

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javi830810
Please never loose the will to live!!! Think about how many people, doesnt
even get access to clean water. You're fine.

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msie
Hopefully, if you have favourable laws you should think about some consumer
proposal or bankruptcy. You should quickly get out of feeding the interest on
your debts. Just think about it.

