
Etsy accused me of not assembling my synths by hand and shut down my shop - bmmayer1
http://wtfbyrne.tumblr.com/post/50437742387/etsy-accused-me-of-not-assembling-my-synths-by-hand
======
adaml_623
While reading about this story and looking at the Etsy website my wife made me
divert to this page: [http://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/108070806/felicity-
leather-we...](http://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/108070806/felicity-leather-
wedges-leather-shoes?ref=shop_home_active)

The seller BaliELF has a large range of shoes available in different colours
and sizes and is based in Indonesia. They has a lot of feedback from the last
12 months suggesting that they have shipped a fair number of shoes. I don't
know much about shoe making but I'm jumping to the conclusion that they are a
small factory 'hand making' lovely shoes.

And yet the email to the OP states, 'Items Handmade by You' and wants him to
document his workflow. The emails from Etsy seem quite buttheaded. I wouldn't
think that a company with just 300 staff has to be so unwilling to engage with
their partners.

~~~
itsybitsycoder
They've sold 1022 items at about 100GBP a pop over the last two years. That's
less than $80k USD per year. I'm not sure how much of a factory you can afford
with that in Bali, or how much profit would be left over. (They claim to be 3
people, so _before_ any overhead, that's less than $26k per person per year.)

I would suggest they are resellers but the amount of customization makes that
seem very unlikely.

~~~
acchow
> That's less than $80k USD per year. I'm not sure how much of a factory you
> can afford with that in Bali

You could also sell through multiple channels (Alibaba, Amazon, eBay, Etsy,
etc.) concurrently. Etsy would make up a small fraction compared to, for
example, Alibaba.

~~~
itsybitsycoder
The majority of Etsy sellers I see sell primarily through Etsy; those who sell
elsewhere generally only do so through their own personal sites. Etsy (or at
least the mainstream corners of it) is much more "boutique" than Alibaba et
al, and sellers can demand much higher prices for the same goods. That's one
reason there's such a big problem with resellers: people can simply buy things
off Alibaba/Amazon/eBay at regular prices, pretend they are handmade, and sell
them on Etsy at a much higher markup. So that's possible, but it doesn't
really jibe with my experience as an Etsy user.

~~~
acchow
See wahsd's reply just next to your's :)

~~~
itsybitsycoder
Looks like they sell through Etsy, their own site, and a third boutique site
that only carries their product. None of the other mass marketplaces.

------
jrajav
Part 2 of this story: [http://wtfbyrne.tumblr.com/post/50437619970/etsy-
accused-me-...](http://wtfbyrne.tumblr.com/post/50437619970/etsy-accused-me-
of-not-assembling-my-synths-by-hand)

Submitted at <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5708307>

~~~
ricardobeat
I'm kind of siding with Etsy here, despite thinking he is being honest. The
information provided is not enough to tell if he isn't just buying ready-made
products and etching his logo on the back. It's a tough judgment, really, at
what threshold does something qualify as hand-made?

~~~
droithomme
I agree there's not enough information to determine how much he is
contributing. I see some wood and a soldering iron, but I don't see evidence
he is populating the boards himself, or his jig for making the finger joints.
He might be but he doesn't show a set up sufficient to determine. I'm also
skeptical of the claims that there are trade secrets involved in assembling
known designs and boards made by others and putting together a rectangular
case. The Bob Moog factory in Asheville has glass windows around their factory
floor and customers are invited to watch their entire assembly process. Does
Moog have more protection worthy trade secrets in their assembly methods than
these designs? Probably.

If he is putting fully assembled boards into a premade box, is it hand made?
In his post it sounds like he is saying he designs the front panel layout and
has it cut and stenciled at a facility somewhere, and no doubt he screws in
the potentiometers, attaches the knobs, and solders the leads. He says the
boards come from China and are designed by someone else. He doesn't say if he
populates the boards or if they come finished, ready for lead attachment. If
lead attachment and the panel layout this is the extent of his work, perhaps
etsy might not consider that truly handmade. Or perhaps they want more
disclosure about how much is done. Maybe some consider that handmade, others
not. It's kind of hard to say. Let's say I am a customer and someone is
selling original "handmade" instrument designs in a wooden case. I very well
may assume from this claim that it was their own design and they made the box.
I probably would not be shocked if the board etching was done elsewhere. But
then what if I find out that all the electronics were designed by another
person and the boards are not just etched but populated in a large Chinese
factory and arrive at the seller's house assembled. Was I ripped off by the
claim it was handmade? Maybe.

~~~
fr0sty
To argue by analogy, are the (no doubt hundreds) of "clocks" listed on etsy
that are no more than a cheap prebought movement mounted through a hole in a
piece of wood in violation of the same policy? What about the driftwood lamps
and such which are just prebought components fished through holes someone
drilled?

~~~
Zimahl
To play devils advocate, the driftwood lamps are all unique pieces made with
lighting parts that probably couldn't be made by an individual. A clockwork is
outside the scope of individual construction as well.

~~~
stedaniels
The driftwood wasn't made by the person, but by nature. You saying the
clockwork is outside the scope of individual construction, but this guy is
getting hammered for using a circuit board? Because yeah, those are so much
easier to knock up compared to a clock mechanism... Any Tom, Dick or Harry,
can drill a whole for a light fitting in some driftwood.

~~~
Zimahl
I said I was playing devils advocate but I guess I will continue that role.

He's not getting hammered for using a circuit board, I highly doubt Etsy is
concerned about that. What they are concerned about is whether or not the guy
is doing the work on these. He hasn't shown enough for me to be able to say
that he is putting them together. He has pictures of a workbench, some
soldering equipment, some wood and other parts, and the finished product.

How does this differ from a driftwood lamp or a clock with a ready-built
clockwork? It's not just semantics. Obviously there are things that Etsy
allows and things they don't but it's also the craftiness (is that a word?) of
the project. I'll be honest that this guy's project doesn't seem very crafty,
whether or not he's putting everything together there's nothing really crafty
or unique about it. This doesn't take anything away from what it is or the
demand for it, it just might not fit in as an Etsy business.

------
mherdeg
Huh. I don't remember seeing any other blog posts from _anyone_ dissatisfied
with Etsy previously — is this their first negative publicity?

It'll be interesting to see how they respond. I am reminded of the smashed
antique Paypal violin story ( <http://www.regretsy.com/2012/01/03/from-the-
mailbag-27> ), where PayPal adopted the standard PR strategy of "saying
nothing at all so that the story will go away."

~~~
incision
_> Huh. I don't remember seeing any other blog posts from anyone dissatisfied
with Etsy previously — is this their first negative publicity?_

Not exactly [0].

I had no idea "handmade" was such a big deal at Etsy.

Regardless, the way they've handled this case seems pretty terrible, right
down to the aggravatingly detached language used to correspond with him.
Something really irks me about humans seemingly trying to be robotic,
particularly in the process of performing a subjective review.

0: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/27/etsy-handmade-
facto...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/27/etsy-handmade-factory-
made_n_1455462.html)

~~~
illuminate
"I had no idea "handmade" was such a big deal at Etsy."

Hell, all I've heard about is griping from other sellers how "handmade" ISN'T
a big deal from overseas sellers.

------
jph
Etsy's a pretty great company, and you happen to be quite nearby in Brooklyn.
How about visiting with some of your work to meet them in person? Etsy has a
monthly open house too, so perhaps that's a good time.

I've met quite a few Etsy employees and they're all quite nice, smart, and
want to do right by people. Good luck!

~~~
ddt
I don't doubt that they're smart and nice. I'd be shocked if they didn't want
to do right by their customers. It seems like they have a pretty good track
record of being good to their sellers and buyers. My friends who sell on Etsy
have nothing but good things to say about them, and the few times I've bought
from them the experience was surprisingly smooth for a user-run marketplace.

But Etsy's at a point where they're driving people's income that they depend
on. The process for remediation and reconciliation shouldn't be unclear until
they shut down your site.

I'd also like to see Etsy take on less of a shoot first and ask questions
later approach. Especially when something is as grey-area as this. If he's
using a factory, he clearly isn't pushing enough product to justify having a
factory.

------
highace
I'm always hazardous when building something on someone else's infrastructure.
If they can shut down your entire income stream "just because", that probably
isn't a good situation to be in.

~~~
dangrossman
Everyone's in that situation. If you're selling online, your host can shut you
down. Your payment processor can shut you down. Your supplier can shut you
down. If you sell offline, your landlord can shut you down. Your bank can shut
you down. You can set up a table in front of your house and try to sell from
there with cash only, and your city/township can come shut you down.

Until some of that happens, it probably makes sense to avail yourself of the
most profitable venue and marketing channels available to you; if Etsy brings
you exposure you wouldn't have operating elsewhere, use it _until_ you have a
problem. Most people probably aren't capable of replicating the entire
commercial ecosystem just to avoid being reliant on any of it, and even when
they are, focusing on that instead of getting their product/service in front
of customers probably isn't the most profitable path. It's better to have
contingency plans for unlikely events than to act like they've already
happened.

~~~
mistercow
The key is to be able to swap out as much as your set up as possible with
something roughly interchangeable. You have to ask yourself, every time you
rely on somebody else, "If these people drop the hammer on me, what will I
do?"

For example, if you develop an iOS app and Apple decides (for whatever reason)
not to accept it, you will have a bunch of useless Objective-C code, which can
basically be ported to another language and platform, or thrown in the trash.

Conversely, if you develop a web app on a cloud PaaS, and the provider treats
you wrong or isn't reliable, you can swap out with another service, or host it
yourself. You may have to do some work to get everything situated in the new
environment (how much work that is depends on the service, from what I
understand), but you do have a backup plan in case things go south.

------
alan_cx
It doesn't do the site any good if it gets this sort of publicity, and clearly
its doesn't do the user much good.

Not a day goes past with out some poor user being booted from a website for
reasons which are either misunderstood, unknown or unreasonable. So many sites
mean a lot to many many people, and to be arbitrarily booted is quite an awful
experience, especially if it seems unreasonable or plain wrong. It seems
unjust that the issues are decided at the whim of the site, and are often not
reversed. Too often the people working for these sites wont back down for
silly ego reasons, they make a simple mistake and don't want to admit it, and
it is very hard to break past that. There is too often no way back either.

I would like to see some sort of independent arbitration process for this sort
of thing. Quite how that would work, I dont know, but there has to be some
fair and consistent way to resolve these issues. Right now, it seems the only
way a user can solve a problem is to make as much noise as possible to almost
bully the website in to taking them back. But in the end, that isn't a "happy"
resolution.

~~~
tedyoung
This is why I will always make sure that I know (as others have suggested)
what I'd do if I got booted off of a platform. This happened to me with
Amazon: I was selling a few used books a month, when one day my email got
hijacked. That meant I wasn't receiving the sales emails from them, and,
because I obviously wasn't shipping them out, got banned from selling by
robots with no process at all for being reviewed by a real human (let alone by
one who could understand what happened and provide a satisfactory resolution).
What am I going to do, sue them? Even arbitration would've been a waste of
money, since I wasn't selling the books as a living (I was selling like one a
month). Ever since then I've always made sure I have an alternative (Half.com
now gets their cut of all my book sales).

------
whiddershins
I think there is probably a bias against electronics as being handmade, and I
appreciate your frustration. I think this is just a misunderstanding, but
this:

 _Disregarding the fact that having my shop up gains me at least one follower
a day, it just so happens I don’t want Etsy to know exactly how I go about
constructing my electronics and especially the enclosures. I realized this was
an intellectual property issue and that Etsy was making an unfair and
undocumented demand of me._

seems like taking a principled stand where a pragmatic one would serve you
better. There have to be parts of the process you can document without giving
away secrets. Secrets that very very very very few people would even know how
to take advantage of anyway.

~~~
VLM
"Secrets that very very very very few people would even know how to take
advantage of anyway."

You have to put effort into telling artists to shut up about their latest
newly mastered technique, whereas industrial designers / factory owners / mass
producers / operations analysts usually consider the smallest details of the
production floor to be their sole secret sauce and source of profit. From the
outside "we" may not realize that response is like waving a red flag in front
of a bull, from Etsy's point of view. Its not helping his case that he's an
artist selling on an artist site.

Its a wood box. If you think you can school Roy Underhill about handmade
traditional wood jointery, you might theoretically be right, but you're almost
certain to be wrong. AND you think you can also school the recently deceased
Mr Bob Pease on analog electronics? Again, yeah in theory maybe, but not very
likely. The relevance of those two guys is they are/were both incredibly
skilled and also good teachers who I've learned from, and I'm a relative peon
in both fields. Something identified as a secret is probably not a secret, but
being mis-categorized.

------
205guy
The real question seems to be "who solders the components to the PCB?" The OP
says "The knobs, potentiometers, and jacks were all secured by me. I did all
of the wiring as well. Ordered the parts and soldered them all to the board
too." The problem is that he makes it sound like an afterthought and does not
provide photographic proof of this step (soldering what looks like about 60-80
components to the board in the one picture).

But given that the finished board could be outsourced just as easily as the
PCB, the Etsy emails seem to be inquiring about that--without really asking
outright, which just adds to the confusion. OP's admission that he is
preparing a lot more products without being able to provide photo proof
further adds doubt to his case.

I don't know Etsy, their rules, their policies, or what they allow in their
store, but they seem to want OP to prove he soldered his boards himself, and
he hasn't. I don't know if that's fair or not, but it does seem evasive on
OP's part. Also, going nukular and posting the whole thing online (thus
knowingly reducing the chance of being reinstated to near-zero) strikes me as
something that a dishonest person does when they get caught/called out.

~~~
stelonix
I don't know about you, but I don't usually record myself while working just
so I can prove it to my employer[1]. He's not being evasive, Etsy is asking
for _too much_ (it's not even in their ToS).

[1] [http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/110487/my-
cus...](http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/110487/my-customer-
wants-me-to-record-a-video-of-how-i-develop-his-software-product)

~~~
205guy
To expand on your analogy, if a programmer advertized his services on uml-
coders.com, he would be expected to show an example of his UML diagrams.

I don't know if Etsy has fair policies or enforces those policies fairly. But
the OP has a hole in his own story, right around a very significant detail.
That raises a red flag in my book.

~~~
kevinpet
No, it's more like he offered to sell a UML diagram, and then after he had
created it, the site came back and demanded a video of him having created it.

------
ricardobeat
I don't know how the fees compare (5% plus CC fees), but Tindie[1] is a
marketplace specifically built for this kind of product.

[1] <http://tindie.com/>

------
joyeuse6701
I don't know how long it takes for you to create a synth, but it may be worth
making a time lapsed video of your process for two reasons:

1\. It should satisfy etsy's requirements of displaying how it is handmade

2\. You and your customers may appreciate the video (a little advertising)

I understand that etsy's request is unreasonable and the conversation with
them, unpleasant, but I think this would be a solution. If the video is done
well, you hopefully won't be giving away any secret sauce to your
manufacturing process.

If all else fails, I suppose it would be time to find another community of
craftsmen.

~~~
xiwi_brendan
Depends. These took me about 8 hours a piece. Not including the design process
which was a bit more. Needless to say I'm not the faster solder or wire guy on
the planet.

Appropriately and by sheer coincidence, I just got into time lapse
photography. Here's my first vid. It's terrible!

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMPEb1GEva8>

Did I make this video to satisy Etsy's ridiculous expectations (that aren't
documented anywhere)? NO! Did I make it because it's fun? YES!

The problem here is that Etsy isn't my boss or my manager. That's the whole
reason I sell through them. I want to avoid someone looking over my shoulder
to make sure I'm working all the time or working within their absurd
guidelines.

This is the question I really want to discuss about Etsy. Obviously, I'm
against the radical approach to just closing stores based solely on suspicion!

------
DigitalSea
This situation seems entirely unfair to me and I am surprised that a lot of
people here are siding with Etsy. If they had such clauses and information in
their Terms and Conditions, then fair enough, comply or leave. But the
worrying situation we have here is that Etsy appear to be making up non-
publicly stated terms, targeting a guy who obviously hand assembles his own
equipment. Sure, the guy didn't provide every bit of info they were
requesting, but why should he? He complied with every Etsy request until they
started asking for photo's documenting every step of the process which is just
ridiculous.

99% of the supposed hand made goods on Etsy are not hand made, they're
outsourced products and drop-shipped goods. Maybe they're trying to crack-down
on that, and maybe they should publicly state that and update their terms. Try
searching, "laptop bag", "iphone cover" and I can almost say with certainty
that most of what you see is not hand made, but rather slave labour or
outsourced.

Etsy have bigger problems to worry about than whether or not a guy is actually
making his own electronic devices when there are substantially larger stores
moving larger volumes of product (like some of the clothing and shoe stores
you see on Etsy) who should be questioned first. And if this is indeed the
process, maybe letting your sellers know IN ADVANCE before they've already
made the product to sell might result in easier compliance.

Just because he is hand assembling a product using already constructed
components like a pre-fabricated PCB and perhaps even pre-soldered components,
does that make it any less hand made? Do people seriously think every
component in the new car they're buying was made by the car manufacturer? No.
Do you think Apple hand make every component in their iPhone or Macbook
computers? Do you think the artist who painted that portrait made his own
canvas and made his own paints? Fair enough that Apple or car manufacturers
aren't fobbing their goods off as hand made, but it gives you an idea how
reliant we've become on component assembly opposed to the non-scalable DIY
approach.

\----

And the final nail in Etsy's argument is this blog post they wrote in 2012:
[http://www.etsy.com/blog/news/2012/defining-handmade-on-
etsy...](http://www.etsy.com/blog/news/2012/defining-handmade-on-etsy/)

The relevant part of this post is this defining paragraph:

To be clear, when we talk about “hand-assembled” on Etsy, we don’t mean simply
putting together a kit where all the pieces are already chosen and provided
together. For example, if someone bought a flat-packed bookcase from IKEA that
came with all the pieces pre-cut and all the necessary hardware included, and
then put it together as directed by the enclosed instructions, that assembled
bookcase would not qualify to be sold on Etsy as a handmade item. “Hand-
assembled” on Etsy also does not include gathering commercially-produced items
and repackaging them in a gift basket.

Which links to this DO's & DON'TS link: <http://www.etsy.com/help/article/483>
which features these key lines:

On Etsy, the term "handmade" can additionally be interpreted as "hand-
assembled" or "hand-altered."

To be considered handmade, the seller must substantially alter the design of
an item produced from a "ready to assemble" kit.

\----

Nowhere did I find anything that stated pictures or any documentation
whatsoever is required to account for the construction process. The fact the
guy is making his own enclosures by Etsy's own definitions of hand made is
deemed to be hand made and not merely commercially assembled. If he was buying
every component and merely assembling it, then that is definitely not hand
made at all.

I've emailed Brendan directly with a link to this comment, which hopefully
helps him out. Maybe those above aforementioned links can help the author get
this store restored.

~~~
rwg
This Brendan guy just needs to switch to selling "handmade" monogrammed island
clutches:

[http://www.etsy.com/search?q=monogram%20island%20clutch%20bl...](http://www.etsy.com/search?q=monogram%20island%20clutch%20black&view_type=gallery&ship_to=US)

(EDIT: Project idea for someone who's bored: Scrape images off Etsy, group
items based on image similarity, and find obvious mass-produced items.
Actually, nevermind, Etsy should be paying someone to do that for them if they
actually care about the "handmade" line they're spouting.)

~~~
ma2rten
_Project idea for someone who's bored: Scrape images off Etsy, group items
based on image similarity, and find obvious mass-produced items._

Actually because an item looks alike does not mean they are not handmade. Many
people on Etsy follow instructions. Etsy's 'handmade' actually means more
'self-made'. A lot of mass produced item are made by hand in Asia. Opposite of
our home in Thailand there is a small shoe factory in some families home. They
make shoes up to spec for some big companies. So, Etsy requires that all items
are made by the person that lists the item for sell. However, it does not
require an original idea.

~~~
rwg
I'm having a hard time believing these sellers ever even touch these items.

Given the cost of an embroidery machine that can actually embroider these
items, and the fact that nobody seems to have non-stock photographs of any the
items, and the fact that ~90% of the images showing available fonts are
completely identical, I'm guessing they're having a third party do the work
and either drop-ship the item directly to customers or ship it to the Etsy
seller, who then re-ships it to the customer.

See also:

[http://www.etsy.com/search/handmade?q=tutti+frutti+cosmetic&...](http://www.etsy.com/search/handmade?q=tutti+frutti+cosmetic&order=most_relevant&view_type=gallery&ship_to=US)
vs. [http://www.wholesaleboutique.com/wholesale/monogrammed-
items...](http://www.wholesaleboutique.com/wholesale/monogrammed-items/tutti-
frutti-large-cosmetic-bag.html)

[http://www.etsy.com/search/handmade?q=tutti+frutti+beach&...](http://www.etsy.com/search/handmade?q=tutti+frutti+beach&view_type=gallery&ship_to=US)
vs. [http://www.wholesaleboutique.com/wholesale/monogrammed-
items...](http://www.wholesaleboutique.com/wholesale/monogrammed-items/beach-
bag.html)

[http://www.etsy.com/search/handmade?q=black+toiletry+bag&...](http://www.etsy.com/search/handmade?q=black+toiletry+bag&view_type=gallery&ship_to=US)
vs. [http://www.wholesaleboutique.com/wholesale/monogrammed-
items...](http://www.wholesaleboutique.com/wholesale/monogrammed-items/black-
toiletry-bag.html)

~~~
smoyer
When I browse the first Etsy link, I see four "sponsored" items above the
selected store, with four identical images that coming from four different
Etsy shops. My guess is that Etsy probably won't crack down on shops paying
for sponsored listings.

------
grossvogel
Try sending Etsy a link to your YouTube channel. I don't know if any of those
videos feature the device in the dispute, but they demonstrate you're capable
of making some pretty cool digital audio equipment.

~~~
xiwi_brendan
I sent Etsy a link to another device I'd built and it's build process thinking
this would serve as a demonstration of my ability and position of assembler.

[http://www.flickr.com/photos/52082118@N05/sets/7215763303855...](http://www.flickr.com/photos/52082118@N05/sets/72157633038558161/)

They weren't satisfied.

------
Aco-
I know some one who works at Etsy, so I forwarded this along to him, he has
since passed it along to their support team in hopes of finding a better
resolution; it's been reported that a lot of other engineers at Etsy have
escalated this post throughout the day.

------
martin_
This is pretty ridiculous. Best of luck to you and I hope you get your store
back after the publicity of this post!

------
cjh_
If you live nearby is it possible for an Etsy representative to come and watch
you manufacture a single item?

This way IP is kept relatively confidential, unless the viewer can remember
every single detail and I doubt this unless they are very skilled with
building electrical components. You could also get them to sign a non-
disclosure agreement if you are concerned.

I also agree this seems unfair, many of the products on etsy don't seem to
pass this same test.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
One of the emails stated "Unfortunately, we’re not equipped to offer phone
support at this time." If they don't even have the resources to have a phone
call with the guy, it is highly unlikely they have resources to send a person
to his house.

~~~
gknoy
They likely have no idea where he lives. If he were to say, "Look, I live ___
blocks away from you. I'd love to buy you and a coworker lunch and you can
watch me build one -- I'd like to avoid having documentation of my process, as
that's a competitive advantage for me", he might get some traction.

Probably not, though, if the emails are that much like form letters.

------
whatshisface
I don't get why it would be so horrible for someone to not hand-assemble
something they sell on Etsy, can someone please explain? (Yes, I know it's
against the point of the site, but is it really worth terminating a product?
Why not just post a notice?)

~~~
Jack000
The products sold on etsy are valuable _because_ they are hand crafted. That
is their value-add, if any mass-production products make it in, their brand is
diluted.

That is - they are really selling the hand-craftedness of the items, rather
than the items themselves.

~~~
tedyoung
Etsy should open up a new site that handles businesses that outgrow Etsy.
Seems silly to try and squeeze everyone into the same mold and then not have
an option to make money on those who are "too" successful to hand make
everything.

~~~
illuminate
It's not about "outgrowing" Etsy. Their entire model is based around avoiding
commodity items and towards "boutique", handcrafted, or vintage. In theory, at
least. In reality they're selective about the non-handcrafted stuff they
tolerate (bought in scale from AliBaba) and what they don't.

------
Xorlev
I suppose Etsy had to do something for bad PR eventually.

~~~
itsybitsycoder
This is actually probably a result of Etsy's last round of bad PR, where one
of the sellers they were promoting (Ecologica Malibu) was actually a reseller.
Etsy has rampant problems with resellers.

~~~
city41
I don't see how they would not, or how they'd adequately deal with resellers.
It'd be like github trying to ensure all people pushing code up to github have
the proper rights to that code.

~~~
itsybitsycoder
Nevertheless, they have to try to deal with it. Their brand is homemade and
vintage. That's why people come to Etsy instead of eBay or Amazon. If their
users feel like they have to slog through mass-produced stuff to get to what
they want, or worse, if they feel like they are being scammed into buying fake
homemade items, they will stop using Etsy.

------
xiwi_brendan
Hi,

I'm Brendan! No doubt this thread has lost some steam, but I'll do what I can
to answer some of the questions posted here.

About the Synth: The PCB came from Music from Outer Space (MFOS) which is
probably the best website on the internet for Synth DIY enthusiasts. I
encourage anyone who even knows how to pronounce "solder" correctly to spend a
few minutes there.

Ray Wilson, owner of MFOS, has a specific policy that allows for the resale of
his designs in the form of completed synths. He only sells the PCBs and makes
all the information public. However, It's not an open-source of GNU license.
You CAN'T use his schematics to print your own PCBs. I honor this, by
purchasing his boards even though there are obviously other ways to bring them
into existence. I've emailed him about this whole situation and received his
blessing!

What Went Wrong: My guess is that Etsy was trying to prevent resale items.
They probably have staff who use their search engine to find duplicates of
unique terms. No doubt "MFOS" and "Noise Toaster" popped up a bunch of times
and they rightfully became suspicious of me reselling completed synthesizers.
However, if the staff member had taken ONE SECOND to read my description it
would've become obvious that MFOS is simply a hobby shop that I purchased the
board from.

Looking over the emails now, it's so glaring that even the slightest change in
word choice could've prevented this situation escalating to the level that it
did. If the rep had at any point known a ANYTHING about electronics, it
would've been obvious that I had made it.

The one thing that still drives me mad and even now I can't find an
explanation for was why Etsy decided to pick on a twerp like me. I had
probably 6 items in my shop and hadn't grossed more than $1000 in 5 months.
Like many have pointed out, they've got bigger fish to fry.

This thinking lead me to believe that this was an all out assault against
electronic artists on Etsy. Perhaps, even part of a larger campaign to remove
them entirely from their site now that alternatives like Tindie exists. I
reacted with emotion and wanted to defend the community of other electronics
designers on Etsy. I thought of them FIRST when I posted this email
conversation.

Hand Assembled Haters: Half of synth DIY is designing your own interface.
That's what modular means to some extent. This is the exact reason why many
designers put their schematics out for free. THEY WANT TO SEE WHAT PEOPLE
DREAM UP. And dreaming takes a lot of energy and time. You can bet your ass I
sanded this thing to holy hell and watched over it liked a baby when I was
assembling it. I love that someone pointed out the issue of wiring in the
comments.

Look guys, if there's that much wiring, it's put together by hand. No one in
their right mind would outsource that much wiring if they were trying to turn
a profit. Printing your own boards with mounted potentiometers would save at
the very least HUNDREDS of dollars.

Inexcusable Closure: The knee-jerk reaction Etsy has to possible non-handmade
items is atrocious. Close my shop without warning? That is not cool at all,
especially when I'm willing to work with you! How about 5 days? And how about
removing that specific item and not my whole bleeping store!

Etsy's documentation on "Dos and Don'ts" is lacking for sure. And accusing
legitimate artists of being LIARS can only lead to outrageous responses like
this from the artists themselves and the broader internet community who
support them.

End: I've reached out to Etsy and told them I'm willing to work with them to
point out the spots where I think this all went wrong and how they can change
their policies to grant sellers the respect they deserve. If things go well, I
will stress to no end, the importance of creating a specialized team to work
with electronic artists as their discipline requires the special attention
that if present would never had lead to this.

Thanks: The support has been incredible and I can only say, I'm completely
undeserving of it. I'm truly an enthusiasts who makes synths, because I love
them and want the whole world to experience the beauty of weird sounds!

The real designers and electrical engineers out there deserve a billion high
fives.

(hope i didn't forget anything)

~~~
xiwi_brendan
If anyone is super interested in this hit me up at byrnework @ gmail (dot) com
and I'll do my best to answer your questions specifically.

Hit up a few points on this thread as well.

~~~
gtani
Is there currently a site that talks about the synth's features, pricing, etc?

------
famousactress
Wow. Contrast this with the front-page HN post about kickstarter not doing
anything about a project that over funded 20x and went silent for a year and a
half <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5707827>

The individual instances where policies fall down can be pretty nutty, but I
honestly don't envy companies that have to solve this problem and figure out
where to walk the line (at scale, no less).

------
mikecane
Just looking at all the wires inside the box in one photo, how could they ever
think that was mass-manufactured?

~~~
thejsjunky
I don't think the issue is they believe it's mass-manufactured or something.
The issue is whether it falls into the niche of what etsy wants to sell.

He's admitted that he doesn't actually design the circuits, and there's still
some question about how much of the actual assembling he does.

It seems he's certainly doing some amount of work with his hands, the issue
whether it's enough to count as "handmade" in the sense that etsy's customers
expect.

I know as a musician if I purchased a "handmade" synth and later found out
that it was basically just a kit that had been assembled for me, I'd be a
little irked. Though if the store was up front about it, I would consider
purchasing it to save myself the trouble of assembling it.

Personally I think it should be allowed as long as the seller is honest about
it, though I could see why etsy might find it a bit dubious.

~~~
mikecane
>>>I know as a musician if I purchased a "handmade" synth and later found out
that it was basically just a kit that had been assembled for me, I'd be a
little irked.

Ah. That makes it clearer for me. Thanks.

------
skwp
This is crazy. You've got some cool lookin synths. We'd be happy to offer you
a home over at reverb.com

------
neona
This is really sad and unfortunate, considering how many items on etsy are
just reseller nonsense, or unaltered items that someone just found. - Like
these [http://www.etsy.com/listing/127063284/super-clear-quartz-
cry...](http://www.etsy.com/listing/127063284/super-clear-quartz-crystal-for-
making?ref=cat2_gallery_6)

Or just ridiculous stuff that.. I don't even know, like this:
[http://www.etsy.com/listing/112833746/increase-breast-
size-s...](http://www.etsy.com/listing/112833746/increase-breast-size-spell-
cast-on-your?ref=cat2_gallery_22)

Either way, Etsy is notoriously rife with resellers, so to see them going
after someone that actually makes things is frustrating but unsurprising,
given their track record.

------
Dwolb
Would suggest checking out Tindie. It's a marketplace for hardware makers.

~~~
zdw
Tindie is awesome, but most of what it sells are parts or subassemblies, not
finished products which appears to be what this dispute is over.

~~~
bwertz
I think there is a growing numbers if finished products on Tindie

------
glesica
Sharecroppers have no rights. They didn't 200 years ago. They don't today.
Doesn't make this suck any less, but it's something that needs to be discussed
more.

~~~
ScottWhigham
I appreciate the attempt at an analogy but it fails here because of the
agreement to the TOS. Both parties agreed to the etsy TOS which spells out,
quite clearly, what each's responsibilities are. So yes, Brendan has rights
afforded/accorded by the TOS - and those are enforceable rights were he to
choose to go that route.

~~~
glesica
Sharecroppers had rights, too. But when one party can cut off the other
party's livelihood, it essentially suppresses the technical "rights" of the
second party. Every American has a "right" to a fair trial. But it is well-
documented that if you can't afford a decent lawyer, "fair" becomes an
unfortunately flexible concept.

------
informatimago
1- you're not the boss of etsy, it's etsy who's your boss: you're working to
provide something etsi can sell to THEIR customers.

2- so the real question is why do you and all the other people who go thru the
centralized and censoring etsy entity did so to communicate with other people,
your potential customers on the Internet?

The Internet is designed to be a meshed network, with N-N communications, not
to be a star network with N-1 communications.

The problem is with you people who sumbit to Etsy, ebay, youtube, facebook,
skype, etc.

Set up your own servers in your garage! Set up your own connections with your
neightbor and the neighboring towns.

Do not pay with your money or your time for those centralizing and controling
entities to develop centralized and controling server software. Instead, pay
developers to write freedom software (GPL) that works in a distributed way, on
your own servers, and which YOU control yourself.

------
readme
This is why you can't depend on such a middleman to run your business. You
need to set up your own shop and focus all your efforts there. I understand
etsy was probably generating a lot of sales for you, but this is the reality
of depending on a middleman.

------
javanix
This is shitty by Etsy. However, AFAIK it is well within their rights.

When you use a service like this, you are essentially paying someone else to
manage parts of your business - the convenience/risk trade-off here happened
to come out against this particular person.

------
docsketchy
That sux! I hope you get your store back. You do really beautiful work --
makes me pretty jealous, actually. (My synth DIY is kinda 50s-lab-equipment-
esque.) -- Doc Sketchy

------
Uchikoma
So you also need to create your wool and are not allowed to source ready-made
wool? Or leather? There is a very thin arbitrary line in there somewhere.

------
Diamons
If you're looking to sell easily online, check out BOX'NGO
(<http://theboxngo.com>).

Full disclaimer, I run it. We make online selling easy by taking a flat 10%
fee on all sales. No adding up small costs here and there, figuring out
listing fees, or subtracting Paypal charges, simply list and receive 90% of
the profit via Paypal or check minus 46 cents.

~~~
ricardobeat
You might want to rephrase that :) "No adding up small costs/fees/charges
[...] minus 46 cents"

------
sean-duffy
This sounds very unreasonable of them, hopefully if as some others have said
they are a decent and considerate company they will resolve this issue as soon
as they realise they have made a mistake, and I wish you the best of luck in
this.

------
pacifika
I I read this correctly and it takes a day to assemble a synth, instead of
arguing the process, why can he not build one that day and document the
process?

That would prove Etsy has no leg to stand on and increase his inventory from 0
to 1.

Why is that not possible?

~~~
ScottWhigham
Brendan replied earlier to someone else:

"The problem here is that Etsy isn't my boss or my manager. That's the whole
reason I sell through them. I want to avoid someone looking over my shoulder
to make sure I'm working all the time or working within their absurd
guidelines."

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5709457>

------
jbruton
Give Shopify a try instead of Esty. You'll never get this nonsense.

------
sjg007
You should sell on ribbon (www.ribbon.co). List your product for free and
directly from your tumblr blog, facebook page or twitter.

(Shamless plug, I work for Ribbon)....

------
guyniraxn
You may want to try selling through NoiseFX.com, they specialize in custom
pedals, synths, etc. When I think etsy, I think fashion.

------
dezinelife
I think it's unfair. It's not possible to hand-make everything and the
definition of 'hand made' can vary.As a graphic designer, the client cannot
ask me to give him the copyrights of the version of Adobe Illustrator I used
simply because I used the software's installed features and didn't code them.

------
phkn
Backlash in 3... 2... 1...

------
D9u
Have you paid your "Fascist Party" dues lately? /sarcasm

This is simply disgusting. Is a hand craftsman actually a threat to the
MegaCorp?

I just don't see why this would happen.

[edit: I just read part 2] Were I you, I'd start making another one and have a
friend photograph the process. Hurry. Time is of the essence!

~~~
D9u
Apparently some take issue with my terminology, even though to classify the
USA as a fascist nation is accurate.

Perhaps such language has no place here, but I'll not sit by and call a cow a
chicken just to please a few geese.

Or, perhaps it is the fact that I actually gave some good advice to Mr Byrne
when I said to quickly make a new one & get pictures this time?

~~~
dtp
For one, Etsy is neither an arm of the US government nor a mega-corporation.
It's got a few hundred employees.

Secondly, the issue is that they think he _isn't_ making his stuff by hand.
They're not somehow persecuting him because he's a handcraftsman. Selling
stuff you make by hand is the entire point of Etsy, and they've built a
successful business around it.

Politics is beside the point. You're just not making any sense.

~~~
D9u
Why does quickly assembling another unit while getting good photos not make
sense?

