
Vesper, Adieu - 8ig8
http://daringfireball.net/2016/08/vesper_adieu
======
archagon
This latest shutdown inspired me to write a blog post in response[1] when I
first heard about it. Although the reaction is understandable, it's a shame
that developers feel compelled to adopt a scorched earth policy when they no
longer wish to (or are no longer able to) support their products. These indie
apps are often marketed as beautiful, wholesome alternatives to grimy
corporate or open source software, but how could I possibly rely on these
products for essential tasks like note-taking if they're just going to
disappear out from under me in a few years? The idea that software has a
lifespan controlled by the developer is, in my opinion, toxic to the market.
It's just one of the many things pulling the App Store down, and one of the
many downsides of living in a walled garden.

As time goes on, and as I see more and more apps simply disappear off the face
of the Earth when developers deem them no longer worthy of their time, I find
myself switching over to software that's either backed by large corporations
or open sourced, regardless of how clunky it might be compared to "designer"
alternatives. My hope is that we soon find a way to collectively monetize the
latter. It's simply awful that an app can just "pop" and take so many years of
developer and user time with it.

(None of the above is meant to blame Vesper or even comment on the
sustainability of the app economy. It's just my sad reaction as a user and,
um, app enthusiast. And props to Gruber for the introspective and humble post-
mortem.)

[1]: [http://beta-blog.archagon.net/2016/08/21/tool-reliance/](http://beta-
blog.archagon.net/2016/08/21/tool-reliance/)

~~~
elsurudo
They should open-source the backend (and hell, the front-end, too). That way
you could self-host, or someone else can provide hosting.

~~~
oarsinsync
This. I'm surprised this is the only comment on here suggesting this. It's the
most obvious way to gracefully sunset an app.

"This isn't making us any money, it's costing us money to maintain. If you
still depend on it, here's the tools that will allow you to continue to depend
on it"

~~~
akshayn
They'd need to continue paying for their font license.

"The biggest factor is that we have recurring costs: the sync server and the
licensing fees for Ideal Sans, Vesper’s typeface."

They'd need to continue paying for their font license.

~~~
mox1
The font is not cheap either*. When you can barely get people to pay $0.99 for
a industry leading app, how on earth can you justify paying so much $$ for a
font. I mean switch to the closest google / open source version and call it
good enough.

[1] [http://www.typography.com/fonts/ideal-
sans/overview/](http://www.typography.com/fonts/ideal-sans/overview/)

~~~
timdierks
It's $300/year from what I can see. Not free, but if you think it's a valuable
part of your design, a small cost, unless you just don't have a viable
business in the first place.

------
bouncingsoul
The whole pricing/platform debate seems like a red herring.

> _Brent took a job at the excellent Omni Group in September 2014, and from
> that point onward the writing was on the wall. We could have, and probably
> should have, shut Vesper down a year ago. But we loved it too much. Or at
> least I did._

> _I even cheat, personally, and run Vesper on my Mac in the iOS Simulator_

1\. There was only one developer in the company.

2\. That developer got a day job (quit).

3\. Gruber and the musician partner are stranded with an app they can't update
and a Mac app they can't finish on their own.

Gruber clearly loves Vesper. He runs it in the freaking simulator. I really
doubt _he_ needed to see huge financial returns to keep at it.

It sounds like the real lesson is: It sucks when your technical cofounder
quits.

~~~
nihonde
For a guy who opines all day about Apple, the fact that he can't maintain a
pretty simple iOS app is telling. If you really care about the app and your
users, you read the damn docs and get to work. I taught myself in less than
six months, and my app is free. Although I don't have much time, I still keep
it running out of respect for my 50 thousand or so users.

This especially annoys me after their enfillade of blog posts about best
practices for UI and pricing of Vesper.

~~~
panglott
This is true, but I was glad to see Gruber put his money where his mouth is
and spend some time in an app developer's shoes.

~~~
paulcole
But did he really? Did he have a development role in Vesper? Or was it just
project manager-ish?

------
niftich
I made the jump to smartphones late, and I've always used Android, so I missed
out on a lot of what iPhones bring to the table. However, I have owned an iPad
mini since 2013, and got a few games and (vaguely) 'productivity' apps for it,
all free ( _EDIT: nevermind, I paid for Angry Birds_ )

But reading contemporary accounts of what Vesper was [1][2], it sounds a _lot_
like yet-another-notetaking app, like Evernote, and lately, Google Keep,
albeit one with nice typography and pleasant UX. I sympathize that the price
pressure on mobile apps is intense, but could it be that it just didn't offer
a compelling enough value, or differentiation from better-known competitors?
Perhaps the question is, is there truly space for a dozen different apps that
on the surface appear to do the same thing?

[1] [https://www.macstories.net/reviews/vesper-review-collect-
you...](https://www.macstories.net/reviews/vesper-review-collect-your-
thoughts/)

[2] [http://drippler.com/drip/best-note-taking-apps-iphone-and-
ip...](http://drippler.com/drip/best-note-taking-apps-iphone-and-ipad-
evernote-drafts-vesper-and-more)

~~~
valleyer
Agree 100%. I use the built-in Notes app on iOS with no problem. And it has a
macOS app. Gruber is overthinking it -- his app simply wasn't compelling.

~~~
ghshephard
Keeping in mind, when Vesper was originally released, Notes was pretty
kludgey, but it was dramatically improved. So, I halfways agree with you -
Vesper became _less_ compelling after Notes got it's major rework.

I still use Vesper as my preferred "really quick" note/scratchpad taking
client, even though I'm an Evernote Plus subscriber, and basically run my
entire life off that App.

I think that's the major problem for Vesper - the top end of note-taking is
owned by tools like OneNote/Evernote, and Vesper was never going to be able to
compete in that market. People are happy to pay $30-$60/year for a world
class, secure, multi-platform note taking app, but probably not willing to pay
that much for a scratch-pad note taking app, when the built in one is free,
and syncs well across platforms.

------
twblalock
Stuff like this is why I try to avoid apps that operate their own syncing
services. If Vesper had used some kind of file format you could just keep in
your Dropbox, and used that for syncing, all the developers would need to do
is stop paying for the proprietary font in order to have zero operating costs.

Obviously you can't avoid all problems this way (Apple and Google and Dropbox
sometimes change their APIs, or discontinue them, e.g. Google Reader), but it
goes a long way to building confidence that even if the company fails, people
can continue to use the app.

~~~
WA
So what would be a good way for me to implement sync nowadays if I also want
to have a web app?

~~~
twblalock
You could use the Dropbox API with oauth. The same files in Dropbox can be
used to sync the web API, phone apps, and desktop apps.

You could also roll your own solution with S3 or something like that. The
point is that you will be using fairly common and popular services which
aren't likely to go away anytime soon, and aren't operated and maintained by
yourself.

You could also take the approach 1Password does: operate your own sync
service, but allow users to use Dropbox or iCloud instead. The onus is on them
to make sure the files are in the right places, but they effectively have
total control over the files, which a lot of people like.

------
nodamage
> Ultimately, what we should have done once we had versions of the app for
> both Mac and iOS is switch to a subscription model. Make the apps free
> downloads on all platforms, and charge somewhere around $15/year for sync
> accounts. That’s where the industry is going.

I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect users to pay a subscription fee for
productivity apps like this. There's been a ton of backlash whenever
developers, even small ones, announce subscription pricing (see 1Password[1]
and Pushbullet[2]). I get the impression users are starting to feel nickel and
dimed every time one of the apps they use switches over to a subscription
model and they start looking for alternatives instead of being willing to pay
the subscription cost. Simultaneously, obviously maintaining a sync service
has a recurring cost and there needs to be a way for the developer to cover
those costs, otherwise you end up in this situation where you simply have to
shut down.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/4vziyr/1password_lau...](https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/4vziyr/1password_launches_3mo_subscription_w_web_access/)

[2]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/3t5mrb/pushbullet_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/3t5mrb/pushbullet_pro_499mo_or_3999year/)

~~~
ghshephard
Evernote does well, because it offers ongoing value for that subscription fee.
That's the key - are you offering a lot of value? If so, then subscription
fees are fine. If not, then you feel like you are being nickle and dimed.
Other obvious candidates (some of which don't charge) for valuable
subscription are Economist, NYT, WSJ, gmail, whatsapp.

And then there is that third class of App, the ones where subscriptions don't
offer much value, but honestly, we use the apps so often, we're happy to pay
to support them (Overcast, Tweetbot, MyFitnessPal are ones I would put in this
class)

~~~
daenney
I'm not sure Evernote is actually doing that well. I find their product useful
but they did lay off about 20% of their workforce and closed 3 of their
offices.

They're also facing stiffer competition from Microsoft with OneNote and this
year's Evernote importers for both Windows and Mac they released which seems
to be quite popular, which they might've made worse themselves by clamping
down so much on their free users and the relatively limited data quota's on
any of their subscriptions. 6$ a month is a lot of money, for barely 3$ more I
can get a full Office 365 subscription including a truck ton of Skype credits
and a TB of storage with OneNote providing a fair amount of the functionality
Evernote provides. I wonder how long people will continue to be willing to pay
for it, especially considering it doesn't seem to be evolving much as a
product.

~~~
ghshephard
The people that I know who use Evernote, basically use it for _everything_ \-
Taxes, Accounting, Receipts, Note Taking, Journaling. For those people, $72 a
year is nothing. It would be nice to see a bit more development in the
product, but in the core of the product -things like searching.

Agreed that Office 365 is a serious competitor to Evernote, but the existing
dedicated customer base of Evernote is unlikely to go anywhere. Kind of like
those people who paid AOL dialup fee's for 10 years after the Internet came
online.

Exit might be to just sell off the business/customer base to Microsoft, and
have them all folded into Office 365 - until then, I'm happy with what they
offer.

------
cageface
_In hindsight, I am now convinced this plan was fundamentally flawed. The
market for paid productivity apps for iOS is simply too difficult._

When even a stalwart Apple partisan like Gruber will concede this you know
things have gone horribly wrong in the iOS app market. The bulk of the blame
here lies with Apple and their stewardship of the app store. They can push the
iPad as real productivity device all they want but until they do something to
make selling anything but games on the appstore worthwhile they're wasting
their time.

~~~
perishabledave
Is it really just the iOS App Store though? People expect everything to be
free nowadays: news, email, productivity apps like Google Docs, games. Don't
think you can pin this problem on Apple.

~~~
Noseshine

        > People expect everything to be free nowadays
    

It's less that I expect things to be free, au contraire. It's more that it's
exasperating to have all these many, many minor services that most of the time
are not vital to me each ask for money individually.

Imagine you were sold a car not as one, but piece by piece. Need a steering
wheel with that? A seat belt? Another seat belt? Oh you need a rear bench too?
Another tire, maybe? A few more screws? Brake light too? Or the OS: Would you
pay for calc.exe? For the file explorer? The desktop manager?

To me the main problem is that there are way too many minor pieces instead of
a whole.

How about - and this is wishful thinking since it would require several big
companies to work together, individually it would not help much - if there was
ONE big service subscription, let's say $199 annually, and I can use
_everything_ (apart from enterprise stuff, that's more). Every piece of
software - and also media! - out there. The system checks what I use and how
much and distributes the money to the people who made the software and the
media.

What those people who think "capitalism!" forget is that the whole process of
_purchasing_ is heavily loaded, psychologically. The more individual
purchasing decisions, the more you cut it into pieces, the less people buy.
The paradox of choice. Decisions decisions! So many more options to make the
wrong one! You cannot make the decisions more and more numerous and expect
humans to follow into the "perfect market society". "Buying" has a price in
addition to the money.

The current system favors those who can offer larger packages. If we had a
system and organization who could organize for everyone getting paid from a
lump sum and remove the psychological obstacle), this would greatly reduce the
disadvantages of smaller players and lead to a much more even playing field.
So having a "government" and a "tax" would actually be _good_ market
capitalism. The decision would not be "do I buy this" but "do I _use_ this"
(but with payment!).

This is especially for things that are not essential, when having to make the
decision may (and does) prevent a sale. Since we _do_ have a lot of free
alternatives this is what most people turn to.

When it comes to news there's an additional problem: Who reads just one news
source? I read very few articles per newspaper, but a lot across many very
different sources. There is no payment model for that even if I wanted to.

.

I first came up with the idea while thinking about how open source projects
could be paid. An additional thought is that this increases "market activity"
by lowering the entry requirements: No need for a full business organisation,
pure developers don't need to become (as) business savvy. If they can assure
there stuff gets _used_ that automatically leads to income. Also an
opportunity to ensure successful projects don't stop, because there is a
stream of income associated with heavily used projects - and that without a
sales and marketing department. Now this is really just a very rough thought,
I saw no use in refining it since I can't make it happen anyway.

Imagine github had a payment model. In this case it wouldn't be so much for
"use" as for "support". Imagine people pay a lump sum for library support, and
money gets distributed to people creating code and patches and answering
support questions. Something that won't ever happen except on a tiny scale
driven by very few people when people have to give voluntary contributions to
individual projects, the threshold is just too high. This includes merely
_knowing_ that the threshold is high, it's self-reinforcing: You know that
library doesn't make the developer any money, so you know unless it's a really
big package picked up by industry and supported by thousands of people it will
probably die within a year even if it looks good and is good quality.

Now going wild (me and my ideas):

I think if we want more _capitalism_ we need to make the entrance easier.
Selling something is HARD these days. I say "these days" because I don't think
it was so hard 50 years ago when there was less stuff (and more optimism among
the populace too?). If basic income is too controversial, how about starting
small with such a project? It has the advantage that following this proposal
you know that people receiving money actually _did_ something useful, and it
would get people paid who today go without, and it would benefit individuals
much more than corporations.

I think we need something _big_ , keeping capitalism but tweaking some of the
basics for the changed environment we live in. We need to keep incentives to
"do something". I see more chances for this to both be accepted and to
actually succeed compared to universal basic income.

~~~
dcw303
> How about - and this is wishful thinking since it would require several big
> companies to work together, individually it would not help much - if there
> was ONE big service subscription, let's say $199 annually, and I can use
> everything (apart from enterprise stuff, that's more). Every piece of
> software - and also media! - out there. The system checks what I use and how
> much and distributes the money to the people who made the software and the
> media.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your point, but there is some irony in
suggesting bundling app services together when the HN crowd (me included) is
so vehemently opposed to bundling in other media, e.g - cable television.

~~~
Noseshine
The bundling you are talking about is to create an oligopoly - bundle some
things to the exclusion of all others. I think that's very different to my
idea. It's something else.

Bundling is more top-down, this is more bottom-up. Bundling is decided by
"politics", and this is what you get. In my scenario everything ("the whole
world") is included, it is not just a bundle made by someone. And there is raw
competition below that layer: People's actual usage determines who gets paid.
This also avoids the issue of market distortion (and therefore wrong
signaling) of software and/or content that is paid for but not actually used
(recent headline: 37% of Steam games that were purchased were never played).

Traditional bundling takes away control, my suggestion is supposed to actually
give us _more_ market, at least in _my_ obviously limited and individual mind.

One thing that needs heavy thought and tweaking is the level of granularity.
Looking at the two extreme ends:

\- World government, all income goes to it and underneath is that proposal. (
_It would not be "communism" though - money is still there and distributed
depending on use._)

\- The other extreme: You buy everything piecemeal, even more decisions as
today, see care example. Both are obviously extreme.

The optimum is not "somewhere in the middle", it's n-dimensional space, not a
linear one.

~~~
dcw303
It's hard to counter what you're saying because you keep editing your comment
:) There was even something about Universal Income for a while there! (edit -
sorry - I may be getting confused with your parent comment which mentions it)

Suffice to say, whether you're suggesting bundling (a la cable), or now
something that seems more like Spotify (revenue share depending on usage), be
aware that a market, by definition, will be driven by market forces, and every
player will act in their own best interests. You can try very hard to make it
very egalitarian with regulations, but the power players will always come out
on top.

~~~
Noseshine
I only _added_ , I didn't remove anything. The UBI stuff still is there - in
the top comment. Note that I'm not voting for or against it, I merely mention
it for comparison. I also clearly mark that section:

    
    
        > Now going wild (me and my ideas):
    

You write:

    
    
        > now something that seems more like Spotify
    

No it doesn't. What I speak of _does not exist_.

As for your second paragraph, I have no idea what possible connection those
trite generalities have with anything I wrote. It seems to me you just like
being argumentative, or you like reading into other people's ideas. I don't
have the feeling that your response is a response _to me_ \- but to what
happened in _your own head_ when you read my comments.

    
    
        > egalitarian
    

This supports my suspicion that you actually respond to yourself, i.e. to the
interpretation in your head, instead of my comment. "Egalitarian" isn't part
of my comment or idea.

~~~
dcw303
My apologies. I was just trying to understand your point. I've obviously
failed. Let's move on.

------
mark242
Pardon me while I go off on a bit of a rant. I've played with Vesper and it is
a fine app. It is also the perfect example of the power of the web.

There isn't anything that Vesper is doing that can't be done on the web. You
could even write Vesper as a single-page app, and use a ServiceWorker with
Firebase or PouchDB or whatever to run the sync. The infrastructure to do all
this is very, very easy to do on the web.

This is not rocket science-- this is how far the web has come in a very short
time. The UI could absolutely be the same as the iOS native app and while you
might have a bit of scrolling hesitation on the interface, it would be
perfectly accessible.

Suddenly you're on every mobile device, Android, iOS, iPad, desktop, whatever.
The absolute hardest and most time-consuming endeavor would be to get the
Stripe account set up for the one-time "in-app" payment to get sync working.

John and Brent and Dave made a fine app in 2012, but I would certainly hope
that the next Vesper starts out life as a web app.

~~~
archagon
Unfortunately, I don't think I've ever used a web app that feels anywhere as
good as a native app. You can feel it in every interaction.

You say "a bit of scrolling hesitation". I say that... and janky button
taps... and broken back/forward navigation... and browser chrome always
getting in the way... and random divs constantly getting selected along with
text... and mistakenly-tapped links taking me who-knows-where... etc. Plus: if
the developer decides to shut down their web app, it's actually _done_ ,
forever, with no recourse.

~~~
mark242
What you're seeing are apps that aren't optimized for mobile. Once you start
moving application logic, network IO, and anything that doesn't involve the
DOM off the main rendering thread via a cached ServiceWorker, mobile web app
performance jumps by an order of magnitude.

Every single performance issue that you're talking about can be seen in native
apps; check Twitter, for example, or Facebook. There is a definite lag there
caused by the network sync being front-and-center. That's unavoidable, but for
an app like Vesper where you're not looking at a huge data transfer, running
the sync in the background is absolutely viable.

~~~
smilespray
Your "very, very easy" proposal just got a little more complex. For instance,
ServiceWorkers only work in Chrome and Firefox, which means no iOS support for
your web app.

I currently work on a web app written with AngularJS and PouchDB. We're
constantly facing issues that would have been easy to deal with in a native
app.

I'd argue it's just as hard writing a good web app as writing a good native
app. It's just a different set of challenges.

------
danpalmer
Vesper had one market - Daring Fireball readers.

Ultimately the only people who can differentiate between "Generic Notes App
#138" and Vesper, are people who have been trained to care about details that
most people don't care about, and that's a very small market. Most people care
far more about the fact that an app syncs to Dropbox, or lets you set a
background picture, than one that animates screen transitions in exactly the
right way.

I'm sad to see another indie Apple-ecosystem developer close down, but I saw
this coming as soon as Vesper was announced, and I'm not in the least bit
surprised. Unfortunately too many of the Mac/iOS old-school community go for
the "I know best" \+ waterfall development approach, rather than trying to
figure out the product-market fit. I say this as someone who has worked in
both an old-school Mac OS company, and startups who have been far more agile.

That's what you get when your app design/development philosophy is based on
Steve Jobs.

~~~
cookiecaper
This is one of the most annoying things about the Apple ecosystem. People have
heard that Steve Jobs was proven to know better than everyone most of the
time. They've heard that Jobs didn't care what was popular, he _just knew_
what people would like before they even realized it. Apple fanboys like to
fancy themselves similarly.

I don't think the myth was true for Jobs and I definitely don't think it's
true for Random Apple Fanboy #2,764,241 (and yes, John Gruber is included in
this, though his number may be slightly lower).

It's really irritating when developers approach their audience as sheep to be
led rather than customers to be pleased.

~~~
danpalmer
I wouldn't say that Gruber et. al treat their users as sheep, I think Jobs was
infamous for taking it 'too far'. I think it's just that the level of thinking
about design that Apple puts into things is neither necessary nor sufficient
for a successful product, but it is treated as such by the old-school Apple
developer community.

------
mmackh
I'm the sole developer of InstaPDF
([https://instapdf.com](https://instapdf.com)) and have been so for 4.5 years.
It's a completly self funded project that I am working on in my spare time.
Even then, my cost do not exceed $35 a month.

However the things I've learnt during building and maintaining it have been
invaluable and helped me in so many other projects.

I don't get how running a sync server or adapting the product with in-app
purchases would require too much time. When it is a labour of love and you
still use it every day - why shut it down? Is he going to reverse his decision
once it gets all the attention with the news of it shutting down? How can it
cost so much when all it does is sync text? Why not hook into CloudKit for
sync?

These are questions I would much rather prefer that he addressed

~~~
ww520
As mentioned elsewhere, the developer left. I think we developers tend to
forget how seemingly simple things to us can be real barriers for others.

~~~
mmackh
I don't think the developer left - he's a part owner. He wrote a whole blog
series about sync. Here's his latest entry about Vesper:
[http://inessential.com/2016/08/21/more_notes_on_vesper](http://inessential.com/2016/08/21/more_notes_on_vesper)

With all the effort going to export - he could have added CloudKit.

~~~
mmariani
And here's the link with the complete series about syncing
[http://inessential.com/vespersyncdiary](http://inessential.com/vespersyncdiary)

------
voltagex_
>the sync server and the licensing fees for Ideal Sans, Vesper’s typeface.
We’re losing money every month.

Okay, what's the cost/benefit for buying a custom font for an app? I'd never
even have considered it as something I should do.

~~~
rocky1138
Honestly, I'm blown away that 1) people would pay monthly for a custom font
and 2) that someone who loves their work so much would see their app close
before scrapping the custom font to lower expenses in an effort to salvage the
app.

I feel like this is a statement about iOS development in general; that
perceived design is more important than the continued functionality of an app.

Or, maybe I'm just reading it wrong and the custom font was a one-time
purchase.

~~~
adamlett
_someone who loves their work so much would see their app close before
scrapping the custom font to lower expenses in an effort to salvage the app._

I don't think that's strange at all. The look and feel of an app -- especially
a simple tool like a notes app -- is a large part of what makes it valuable.
There are many people who don't care, but they were never going to pay for an
app in a category that has so many free alternatives. Those who are willing to
pay are exactly the sort of customers who are delighted by the attention to
detail that is exemplified by using a custom typeface.

------
jdswain
There is a lot of price pressure on iOS apps, people expect them to be free or
at least under $2. At that price you need to sell a lot of apps to make a
profit, and probably very few apps reach that level. I've tried the opposite,
selling a higher priced app and accepting the much lower sales numbers, and I
think it has resulted in a better return than going low cost, but it's still
not earning enough to grow. I do look at the prices that desktop apps get with
envy, so maybe it is time to go back to that market? The idea about designing
for mobile first though, that makes a lot of sense.

John mentions having to redesign for iOS 7, but the reality that there are
many of these events that mean that you have to keep developing. New iOS
versions, new screen sizes, WatchOS, (tvOS), new input methods, updating UI,
all add up to quite a bit of work just to stand still feature wise.

I think the days of making money on the App Store are gone.

~~~
kalleboo
Price elasticity also depends a lot on the type of app and marketing. I've
seen the sales numbers for an app where increasing the price from $0.99 to
$1.99 and ultimately to $2.99 had corresponding drops in sales where the
revenue was actually kept the same. This app is very popular through word-of-
mouth and blog recommendations which is the key. If you're relying on sales
through search results and rankings it might be more price-sensitive.

------
pan69
Would you not build a web version first? I mean, you can use that on both a
phone and a desktop.

While I'm reading this I can't help thinking that this is a great example of a
bunch of developers who are more interested in building an iPhone app and are
using a product idea as as excuse to do so.

But hey, if you don't try you certainly fail. I have been there too. Live and
learn.

~~~
AlexandrB
> Would you not build a web version first? I mean, you can use that on both a
> phone and a desktop.

And provide an inferior experience on both. I'm just one user, but I would
have been reluctant to buy it.

~~~
eropple
Agreed. I think the only web "app" I've bought, ever, is Pocket Casts' web
version. (It was nine bucks and saves me a bunch of battery life--easy
decision.)

------
gkanai
It is interesting to me how someone who is so knowledgable about Apple could
make such basic mistakes about his own app strategy. Lots of people make apps
that are not popular but Gruber is someone who has seen them all come and go
and yet he built something that was just not compelling.

~~~
intoverflow2
This project always felt to me like him wanting to prove that the App Store
was still a place for the classic sort of high quality artisanal app you
associate with the Jaguar to Leopard era of OS X (or the first 12 months or so
of the App Store before it started the race to the bottom).

Think it's time for even die hard Apple fans to accept that the App Store is
now the same low quality garbage dump of low income crapware that for many
years they claimed the Android ecosystem was.

------
BooneJS
Nice app, but he nails the issue with not having a desktop app. I guess mobile
first cannot mean mobile only (yet?). Lots of other Markdown-enabled note
taking apps that work with Dropbox that allow you to use one app on mobile and
another on desktop. I like nvALT on desktop and Drafts or 1Writer on iOS.

------
rodgerd
> In the pre-iOS 7 era, building an iPad app was like building a second app.

You know, it's funny Gruber was bitten on the arse by this when he was amongst
the people who flung poo at Android on tablets for not forcing people to
rewrite applications for the tablet form factor.

------
karmajunkie
Does it strike anyone else as weird that one of the two costs driving them out
of business was the licensing costs of a font? Jeez man, I think good design
is important too but make a compromise somewhere.

Also, fixed cost sales vs unbounded maintenance costs is just a doomed
business model from the start.

~~~
blihp
It doesn't surprise me only because I've followed Gruber's blog over the
years: he's a typography and font geek in the same way that many of us are
tech geeks. The use of a licensed font was a design conceit on his part but
hardly fatal at $300/yr. The ~$3,600/yr for servers seems pretty high for what
they're doing, but again far from fatal. What likely doomed them was that the
market of discerning customers is much smaller than they estimated (yes, even
in the Apple ecosystem) combined with a large number of competitors
(especially at the crucial price of 'free'.)

Expenses didn't drive them out of business, the lack of revenue did. Sure,
they could have switched to a free/built-in font and saved $300 and maybe
switched to a cheaper hosting provider and maybe saved $1-2k... then what? At
best they're now keeping an additional $1-2k per year (split 3 ways), for now,
from an app that they need to keep running on the platform and backend
services to keep going 24x7... there's better ROI to be had working the drive
through window at a local fast food restaurant.

Your point about one-time revenue vs. ongoing expenses is valid, but that can
be fixed via new products / subscription pricing down the line. However,
before that happened it sounds like they determined that they lacked the
customer critical mass that would make it worth putting any more effort into
it.

~~~
karmajunkie
Yeah, I think that's what sat weirdly with me—the article felt like a 'it was
bleeding me dry!' kind of thing, but I have a hard time seeing how that could
be the case with those kinds of expenses. It feels more like a "this isn't fun
anymore" kind of shutdown.

------
nalllar
The author states "I’m a firm believer that you always need some good luck to
succeed. We would have been luckier, timing-wise..."

This is probably not a good thing. Video by Louis Rossmann: "Believing in luck
compromises the influence we have over our own life."

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q6hpsGjcIo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q6hpsGjcIo)

~~~
adamlett
I play poker, and if there is one thing poker has taught me, it's that success
is almost always a mix of skill and luck. In the short term luck dominates
skill. In the long term it's the other way around. The kicker is that bad luck
in the short term can preclude the long term skill effect from kicking in,
because if you go bust you can no longer compete.

------
jbk
Is there really a market for a note-taking app, that cost $20 on the desktop?

That sounds quite difficult to market and sell, when there are many
alternatives, like Evernote, or OneNote that are close to free.

~~~
intoverflow2
The hope is the take advantage of his blogger presence to sell the idea of a
well designed, trendy, premium to his audience.

I'd say a $20 desktop note taking app is an easier sell than a $10 iOS note
taking app.

------
LVB
I really like open source projects for certain things, especially these
productivity apps that may bring their little twists and design flair but
ultimately end up holding a ton of user data. I'm pretty sure Vesper users
would love to be able to easily move their data to a less beautiful (bye Ideal
Sans!) but still functional alternative right now, without a massive
conversion/migration process.

I ran into this with todo.txt on Android. The flagship app
([https://github.com/ginatrapani/todo.txt-
android](https://github.com/ginatrapani/todo.txt-android)) was basically
abandoned, but it is open source and some time ago was forked into what became
an active--and better--alternative ([https://github.com/mpcjanssen/simpletask-
android](https://github.com/mpcjanssen/simpletask-android)).

------
unfunco
> The biggest factor is that we have recurring costs: the sync server and the
> licensing fees for Ideal Sans, Vesper’s typeface. We’re losing money every
> month.

The costs of running the server I can understand, but if the app had value
then surely changing the font to a similar but free alternative would not have
made customers stop using it?

------
sohkamyung
I find this part somewhat surprising: _" iOS 7 was introduced at WWDC 2013,
just a few days after we shipped Vesper 1.0. [...] So we spent the summer of
2013 not building a sync system, but rather building an iOS 7 version of
Vesper."_

Didn't they know, before the launch, the look-and-feel of iOS 7? I don't
believe Apple would have launched iOS 7 without telling developers beforehand
the changes required to make their apps compatible with the look-and-feel of
iOS 7.

Disclaimer: I'm not an App developer (either iOS or Android). Please correct
me if I'm wrong.

~~~
sitharus
WWDC is the developer launch event, so that's the first time any non-apple
developer would have seen the new UI.

It generally isn't released to the public until september-october ish.

~~~
intoverflow2
Although to be fair it was just a visual refresh they honestly didn't have to
redesign anything. They could have built the sync system then redesigned.

Rather than shipping then starting a rewrite just days later.

------
dankohn1
I think commenters are missing the most important lesson from this story,
which is that most businesses fail. Even if the product works great. Even if
it finds it's intended user. Even if the team is completely committed and
sticks with it for years on end. (And even if you have free access to one of
the most popular websites for your target base.)

Entrepreneurship is hard, and the big success stories everyone likes to focus
on are always the exception.

------
scwoodal
I read [1] a few years ago about an idea for using IMAP as the storage/sync
backend for a notes app.

Added bonus of the notes I write are in my mailbox so no worries about a
company shutting down and losing my data.

[1] [http://www.haystacksoftware.com/blog/2013/10/please-
build-a-...](http://www.haystacksoftware.com/blog/2013/10/please-build-a-
mimeimap-backed-note-taking-app/)

~~~
intoverflow2
Isn't this how Apple Notes worked until recently?

~~~
osi
Yes. As well as the Reminders functionality.

~~~
mercutio2
Reminders sync using CalDAV, not IMAP.

------
zellyn
My take on a better path (of course, hindsight is 20/20, right?):

(a) free iOS app (b) paid sync service _with open API_ (c) let other people
build web+MacOS+Linux+Android+whatever apps (d) free artisinal, handcrafted
MacOS app

Also, could have skipped the complexity of building sync infrastructure by
using Firebase.

Also, I know using an inferior font would pretty much invalidate everything
that made Vesper Vesper, but it's painful to see a recurring cost there…

------
sathomasga
> the licensing fees for Ideal Sans, Vesper’s typeface

Ideal Sans, $199 (currently on sale): [http://www.typography.com/fonts/ideal-
sans/characters/](http://www.typography.com/fonts/ideal-sans/characters/)

Lato, Free:
[https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Lato](https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Lato)

------
paulcole
"I can’t prove that, of course. I could be wrong. But I’m pretty sure I’m
right."

Daring Fireball in a nutshell.

~~~
elicash
That he allows for the possibility that he's wrong? Yes, it's a good trait to
have.

------
Darthy
> With “Vesper” we were thinking things like beautiful, smart, clever, strong.
> In the end, the name was more apt than we knew, because it also carries
> heartbreak.

That was sad and beautiful. I shed a tear after reading this. Man, this guy
_can_ write!

~~~
pluma
Is that a Bond reference? Apparently Vesper is also the name of a cocktail?
I've only seen it as meaning "evening" (in German I think it typically refers
to a cold dinner).

~~~
hboon
Both cocktail and this
[http://jamesbond.wikia.com/wiki/Vesper_Lynd_(Eva_Green)](http://jamesbond.wikia.com/wiki/Vesper_Lynd_\(Eva_Green\))

~~~
pluma
That explains it. I've kinda been in denial that there were any Bond movies
after Brosnan so I thought this was more of a 70s era Bond reference than
'00s.

------
IanDrake
The conclusion that building an iOS app second as an enhancement to a pre-
existing offering matches my own.

If you want your App to be more then just another lottery ticket, it needs to
be _additive_. It needs to augment a pre-existing product.

If you look at your phone now, how many third party apps are _app first_
products (besides games and camera apps)?

Here's my list: Instagram, Waze, HeartRateFree, Uber. 4 out of 72 apps.

------
rajington
Not sure if anyone is still reading this, but I wrote a helper to get your
Vesper notes into Trello: [https://rajington.github.io/vesper-
trello/](https://rajington.github.io/vesper-trello/)

------
reacweb
There are so many cheap hosting solutions, I do not understand why he does not
keep this project as a hobby project in a kind of zomby state.

All the clients will be very sad that their (paid) application stop working.

~~~
gadders
From the article, he still has to pay for font licensing.

~~~
SyneRyder
Gruber later mentioned on Twitter [1] that in some months they're paying more
for servers than they're spending on the font in an entire year. (The font
licensing is $299/yr [2], suggesting server costs around $3600/yr.)

[1]
[https://twitter.com/gruber/status/768302562030202881](https://twitter.com/gruber/status/768302562030202881)

[2] [http://www.typography.com/apps/](http://www.typography.com/apps/)

~~~
Doctor_Fegg
Curious. You should be able to run an (evidently not that popular) text sync
service on a Hetzner box for a fraction of that price. I wonder what was
costing them $3600.

~~~
lee_a
I'm not certain if it's still the case, but Vesper Sync was originally written
using Azure Mobile Services.

[https://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Windows-Azure/Learn-how-
Vesp...](https://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Windows-Azure/Learn-how-Vesper-built-
offline-sync-using-Azure-Mobile-Services-)

During many Azure ad spots on The Talk Show, it had also been mentioned that
Vesper used it.

------
cocktailpeanuts
He says he would have made more money with desktop apps but I think people buy
even less apps on the desktop appstore. I download apps on the iOS appstore
all the time and sometimes even purchase iOS apps (including Vesper), but I
would have never bought vesper if it was a Mac app (I wouldn't have bought it
even if it was $5, but he's saying he would have put the price at $20....)

~~~
CivilianZero
I agree with you that I am, for some reason unknown to even me, more likely to
spend $20 in increments on things I will never use on iOS than I am to spend
any amount on the Mac App Store.

On that note, however, Mac Apps do seem disproprotionally more expensive for
similar functionality but that is a different topic.

~~~
intoverflow2
Mac apps, even without any updates usually run on the OS 8 years+ later

Same can't be said for iOS apps. It's just a much better investment.

~~~
CivilianZero
Is that really still true? I know most apps I use have either required
purchasing an update or have simply been replaced by OS functionality.

And there's something about committing to a Mac app when you're not sure if,
in a week, one you like more will be available as opposed to iOS apps, which
are basically disposable.

Of course all of this is tempered by my desire to support the products I use
and the people who develop them.

------
london888
Anyone want to estimate the monthly server/font licensing costs?

------
markdown
Relevant:
[https://twitter.com/nternetinspired/status/76762763342105804...](https://twitter.com/nternetinspired/status/767627633421058048)

~~~
Udo_Schmitz
[http://daringfireball.net/preferences/](http://daringfireball.net/preferences/)

------
Waterluvian
Why did they target all the apple devices? What drives a decision like that?

Don't you want to target the largest demographics first? I would imagine
there's a ton of Linux and windows and Android users?

~~~
Retra
Maybe you want to target the most profitable demographic?

~~~
hota_mazi
iOS stopped having this privilege a few years ago. Android and iOS are about
equally profitable these days.

And even if they were not, you will get about five times as many users on
Android than you will on iOS, there are many ways to monetize these users once
you reach such a volume.

Part of the failure of Vesper was due to Gruber's infatuation with Apple (on
top of the fact that a note taking app is just not that compelling enough in
2016).

~~~
nodamage
> Android and iOS are about equally profitable these days.

This is really only true for games, i.e. Candy Crush is not terribly different
on iOS vs Android so it makes sense that the revenues are similar. But if you
consider paid productivity apps, iOS sales still dwarf Android sales.

------
kazinator
However, something called "VSEPR" is impossible forget: "valence shell
electron pair repulsion" theory. Ah, high school chem ...

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSEPR_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSEPR_theory)

:)

------
hota_mazi
What's fascinating to me is that despite claiming hindsight and knowing now
what went wrong, Gruber still completely fails to see that not even
considering developing the app for Android was certainly a factor in the
failure of his product.

I'm not saying that their app would have succeeded, just that you're pretty
much doomed from the start if you don't develop for both markets these days.

Besides, making a whole business on a note taking app in 2016... seriously.

This is what happens when you let emotions drive business decisions: failure.

