
Uber is dropping rates for drivers down from 80 cents/mile to 60 cents/mile - DyslexicAtheist
https://slate.com/technology/2019/03/uber-lyft-strike-ipo-los-angeles-san-francisco.html
======
tunesmith
So many parallels to the music industry here.

You have a vc-funded company, operating at a loss, commoditizing the "talent"
(drivers/musicians), thereby conditioning the audience (passengers/listeners)
to expect an unsustainable cost for the service, using that loss leader
mentality to drive other solutions out of business, until they argue or take
action that the talent should expect even lower rates than they've
historically gotten so the company can have a shot at being profitable. When
the larger effect is that the company has captured value that used to go to
the talent and then instead goes to the investors.

~~~
empath75
Unlike the music industry, there aren’t a whole lot of people who would just
be a cab driver for free in their spare time even if there was no money in it.

~~~
Forge36
I've heard many stories of drivers who do it to help keep drunk drivers of the
road. There was a German Rideshare website I used (8+ years ago) that had
decent popularity without requiring payment within the website. In this case I
think we'd need to define "a whole lot" to try and compare the two.

------
adamqureshi
My brother works for uber, He is 54 years old smokes a pack day and has had 2
heart attacks. He drives a Cadillac and pays $500-month for commercial
insurance and has a monthly payment for his car. He has TLC plates to work in
NYC ( fees apply) he makes about $300 a day works like a dog 12-14 hours a
day. All of his friends are the same (uber drivers in NYC) Here you have the
typical uber driver who does this for a living as his main gig not some side
gig while building a start up or some bullshit side thing. These are the left
over drivers from when the yellow cab money / industry dried up in NYC. The
job is literally killing him. It's the classic frog in boiling water syndrome.
The story is often used as a metaphor for the inability or unwillingness of
people to react to or be aware of sinister threats that arise gradually rather
than suddenly.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog)

~~~
EForEndeavour
> He smokes a pack day and has had 2 heart attacks

> The job is literally killing him

I don't mean to be snide or to blame your brother (addiction is a powerful
thing), but I'd say that maintaining a smoking habit despite having suffered
not one but _two_ heart attacks sounds more like putting a frog in a pot with
some water, splashing boiling water into the pot twice, scalding the frog both
times, and having the frog decide to stick around and see what happens next.

~~~
idDriven
Ive tried to get a plethora of acquaintances and coworkers to try vape, the
upfront cost of a good quality reliable one-device system can easily exceed a
couple hundred dollars. The majority of people who I discuss this with are
upfront-cost conscious above all, they just have $5 a day (or 2 packs a NY day
being $14 a day) and have too little money to gamble, in their mind, on will
vaping work.

Scholarly articles on nicotine replacement show that for every person who
successful quits using that it costs around $7k, magnitudes more $$ than vape.
For some people nicotine is one of the only things they have that makes them
hate life less and be able to cope better. On some level I find it unfair that
people should say 'well you shouldn't do that categorically' when the vast
majority of people have their own individual preferences on vice.

~~~
EForEndeavour
Thanks for your perspective; I didn't know any of those costs.

Everyone has their own individual vice preferences, but some vices are
demonstrably worse for health than others. I'm not one to tell a person to
quit smoking, but it seems likely that in this case, the guy's two heart
attacks did just that.

------
pmorici
The IRS deduction for business vehicle use in 2019 is 58 cents per mile. So
they have effectively reduced the per mile payment to the cost of operating
the vehicle.

Seems like they are on the verge of turning driving for Uber into a reverse
mortgage for your car.

~~~
mlthoughts2018
And quite frankly the business model might be to just bank on a steady supply
of ex-criminals who have a hard time getting other work and may not understand
the financial arrangement they are entering into. Exploit them for a while and
when they realize they aren’t making money, just chalk it up to built-in
turnover and on to the next unwitting driver.

~~~
caprese
> Exploit them for a while and when they realize they aren’t making money

Between all the happy drivers who you begin to notice are just 2 weeks in, and
also knowing they are homeless while they are driving in this area makes it
harder to support the service

But there is also a reason they drove 100 miles from Sacramento and turned on
the app.

~~~
hopler
You could tip your driver if you believe they deserve higher pay.

~~~
caprese
when I say "support" this is more about imagining whether it is a sustainable
business model or not and just enjoying the luxury while it lasts

------
frotak
My girlfriend tried out the Instacart gig for a while as she finally got her
chronic low energy and fatigue addressed through B12 shots and wanted
something to occupy her and give her a little extra spending money outside of
what's budgeted.

That experience was absolutely demoralizing in terms of what she was able to
actually make. Granted we live in a lower density city in the southeast so
that result makes sense. But everything is very skewed toward the company in
the case of Instacart...mileage reimbursement is from the store to the
delivery...and you can be sent 10-15 miles from your point of origin to the
store to purchase goods at.

I'm not surprised at all that Uber (and the gig economy as a whole) are
squeezing their "independent contractor labor force" given that for them it's
just a stepping stone toward a fully autonomous pipeline. The calculus here
isn't toward establishing and maintaining a happy and committed workforce but
bridging the gap between funding and profitability through autonomous
solutions.

I don't know what the answer is but I couldn't imagine being in a position
where one of the few viable options available for any sort of gainful
employment was working as part of the "gig" economy.

edit: If that rate is intended to also cover fuel costs then fuel can easily
eat up >10% of that $0.60/mi rate. Man.

~~~
quadcore
I guess they should form a union and strike.

~~~
frotak
I imagine that would only be orders of magnitude harder to manager in this
circumstances than in previous generations.

Especially for Uber who can incentivize payouts in an elastic fashion as the
available labor pool shrinks. Service quality might decline a bit as available
drivers decrease...but Uber won't even have to explicitly go out and find
"scabs" \- they can simply temporarily surge pricing to entice some of the
drivers who either aren't striking or who aren't as committed.

Difficult indeed to really cut at the heart of Uber in this case and really
swing some leverage as organized labor.

Especially with the setback face in U.S. court.

~~~
creato
I mean, the surge in pricing wouldn't even be a thing someone has to do. It
would just happen automatically.

That's the whole problem with this issue: Uber has made the market for
taxis/rides incredibly liquid, which has driven the prices down to pretty much
exactly the marginal costs. There are plenty of people who have already sunk
the cost of a car, and have nothing else to do, so it still makes economic
sense to do this with their time.

If the demand for unskilled labor doesn't increase, this will get worse.

~~~
rightbyte
Uber operates with a loss. The prices are under marginal cost. The drivers
have no scale benefits like ordinary Taxi companies when it comes to buying
cars or maintenance.

It only makes economical sense to drive for Uber with the car if you can't
sell it for a good price (you know the car is good and not abused, the buyer
doesn't) and that you don't plan on buying a new car after the wheels fall off
on the present one, or you need to liquidize your assets a little bit, i.e.
getting approx. 100USD for decreasing the value of the car and buying gas
driving for Uber for 100USD.

------
auber
I did Uber driving a while ago. I just called Uber support and they told me
that my pay in the Bay Area is now 68 cents per mile and 29 cents per minute.
In November it was 99 cents per mile and 18 cents per minute. I’ve randomly
pulled up a ride I gave in November in which I took a guy 3.8 miles taking 17
minutes. Back then I was paid 8.5 and if I did it today I would have been paid
9.1. Shorter trips would of course not fare so well. But short trips suck even
with higher pay per mile because short trips rack up dead miles — the unpaid
miles between trips.

Before, I prioritized miles. Getting the most miles in the shortest amount of
time seemed like the best thing to do although I never sat down and
thouroughly worked out what strategy would pay the most. There are lots of
subtleties that make the calculation difficult. But with this new pay scheme
it might actually pay off to go slowly. This would make rides safer overall
but might increase incidences of missing an exit when your fare is lost in
instagram.

Maintaining a Toyota Corolla costs roughly 20 cents per mile, especially if
you do your own oil changes. And that includes depreciation.

If anyone from Uber happens to read this, I have to say that paying for dead
miles would do a lot of good. I would happily give up tips for paid dead
miles. Eliminating dead miles would allow drivers to drive anywhere and change
the equation in a way that would be very beneficial to Uber overall as a
service.

Also add a tiny fee for people who cancel ride after ride looking for the
shortest eta. On average a driver wastes 20 cents every time someone does
that, probably. So charge 20 cents for cancelling even if it’s immediately.
The small group of people who like to treat Uber like an eta slot machine can
do so, drivers won’t sit and wait for several minutes to trigger the
cancelation fee and the vast majority of riders who don’t do it will only see
a small improvement in service quality with no increase in price.

~~~
mnm1
I think the cancellation fees uber in particular charges are bullshit and I
always dispute them with the credit card if uber doesn't give me credit. Every
single one has been for a driver taking a trip that's way too far away,
estimated wait time of two to three minutes becoming ten to fifteen minutes or
more. If the driver who knows they are taking this trip and won't get there
for over ten minutes but the eta is three minutes, why should I pay a
cancellation fee when I finally cancel after waiting five minutes? That is
total bullshit. Often the driver hasn't even finished his previous trip. I
don't know whose fault it is, the driver's or uber's. The software should not
allow a driver to take a trip with a short eta knowing that it'll take four or
five times longer, sometimes before he even finishes his previous trip, but
since it does, the driver should be aware of how far away he is and not take a
trip he knows he's going to be way over the eta for. In this scenario,
everyone loses.

~~~
user5994461
Maybe something is wrong with you for thinking you can get a ride anywhere
anytime in less than 5 minutes.

Uber is assigning the rides, consistently incorrectly showing 3 minutes away
and with a ride to finish sometimes.

~~~
wasdfff
Its a pretty regular occurance to see plenty of cars orbiting on your map,
then the one that snags your request is 5 miles away going the wrong way on
the highway with another fare, and you sit on your hands. Drivers tap rides
without even looking at them just to get it first and have a fare ready,
regardless if it makes sense timing wise. I’ve seen it from the passenger
seat.

------
adamio
This must impact quality at some point. Either driver competence will decline
or vehicle maintenance will be dangerously put off.

~~~
nradov
When I take a Lyft or Uber ride the vehicle is frequently showing some sort of
warning light or overdue maintenance indicator on the dashboard.

~~~
BenjiWiebe
Speaking as a tire/lube shop technician, a large percentage of the general
populace has a warning light of some sort on at any time... Maybe %20 (that we
see, if course) in our coverage area, which is a 20k population city and the
surrounding rural area.

~~~
ez76
How often, would you guess, is it a bad sensor vs. an actual vehicle
operational issue?

------
pishpash
[https://www.dailynews.com/2019/03/22/uber-drivers-prepare-
to...](https://www.dailynews.com/2019/03/22/uber-drivers-prepare-to-strike-
over-25-percent-cut-in-wages/)

Found more context:

“In September 2018, we increased the per-minute rate and minimum fares in
hopes of making it more worthwhile to drive with Uber in L.A.,” the company
said. “Unfortunately, these changes did not have the intended impact.”

As a result, Uber said it was increasing the per-minute rate drivers earn but
reducing the per-mile rate and minimum fare. The per-minute rate jumped from
15 cents to 21 cents. But the minimum fare dropped from $3.75 to $2.62 and the
more crucial per-mile rate dropped from 80 cents to 60 cents.

[https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/03/uber-lyft-
nyc...](https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/03/uber-lyft-nyc-la-
driver-wage-strike/585715/)

Organizers with Rideshare Drivers United started planning Monday’s action two
weeks ago, responding to Uber’s decision to reduce per-mile fares from 80
cents to 60 cents—months after the company raised rates from 60 to 80 in
September 2018. Uber says it’s now reversing the move to put its fares more in
line with other ride-share companies, and that it expects the net effect of
this 25 percent cut will mean that average driver earnings will return to the
same level as before the September increase. Uber also noted that it increased
its per-minute rate again on March 11. Lyft, meanwhile, has not changed driver
rates in the city of L.A. for 12 months.

------
PopeDotNinja
If I were Uber, or any ridesharing service, I'd be optimizing to pay driver's
as much as possible. But that's just me.

~~~
koolba
In what world would that make business sense?

Apparently they already lose money (counting marketing costs and incentives)
per ride, how can they expect to operate a going concern by striving to
increase expenses?

~~~
PopeDotNinja
If you need drivers to stay on the platform, and acquiring drivers is
extremely expensive, paying them less won't help with driver retention (unless
you're making them so rich they retire). If you engage in a race to the bottom
on rates with your competition, you'll end up having to spend more on driver
acquisition and retention.

If you take care of your drivers, they will want to drive for you more
frequently, and your rides will have more drivers available. Sure, the price
of rides will be a bit higher, maybe a lot higher, but it'll be sustainable.

And here's me speculating... there's only one case where lowering driver pay
makes sense, and that's lowering your prices to drive someone else out of
business. If Uber is facing so much competition from Lyft & others, they won't
be around once people get sick of giving them money. And by pissing off their
drivers, they're creating a spot in the market for a higher end competitor to
come in. Once a socially responsible, fair trade competitor gets established,
it'll be hard for Uber to raise their rates again, because they have a bottom
of the barrel reputation.

Of course I'm not in charge of running a ride sharing company, and there are
plenty of people who have good intentions at suck at business. Maybe I'm one
of the people that naturally walks the path of good intentions that leads
straight to hell. Who knows.

~~~
abernard1
I'm going to put an alternative view here.

My guess is Uber has actually done enough legwork and figured out that
contrary to these sob stories in the press, there are more than enough drivers
that 1) have efficient vehicles that are cheaper to operate and 2) are willing
to work for that profit in quantities to cover demand.

If the rates Uber is providing drivers are so dismal they're protesting in the
street, frankly, they should quit. No one is forcing drivers into a money-
losing proposition. I'm especially unsympathetic given that they're paid on a
per-transaction basis and there are alternative ridesharing companies out
there.

Those drivers can go work for a company that charges more for rides, and
passengers who care about that can choose that option. The fact that
passengers currently seem unwilling to pay for that (somehow we never consider
it "socially responsible" that passengers are provided cheaper service...)
makes me think that will be unlikely in the short term.

~~~
jtms
Right?? So many commenters are acting as if these drivers are somehow
obligated to work there. Just. Go. Elsewhere. You are not entitled to the
perfect job simply because you are alive. What the hell happened to personally
responsibility/accountability?

~~~
PopeDotNinja
The solution to getting a better job is not simply leaving your current job. A
lot of people have a shit job because they can't get a better job. A lot if
people are homeless because they can't get a job at all. It's not that damn
simple.

Source: white middle class male in San Francisco couldn't get a job for most
if 2009, eventually ended up homeless.

------
kbos87
I remember talking to a driver back in the early days of Uber X (probably
2012-ish) who told me he was on track to make $80k driving for Uber that year.
Wow have things changed.

~~~
Forge36
The trick today or to drive more during surge pricing hours. One of my drivers
claimed to be making close to that. I suspect a large factor is also the city
you drive in.

------
skilled
This sounds terrible and I would hate to be a Uber driver who has to digest
this news over the coming days and weeks.

------
reilly3000
Its like they see developers and drivers as two different species. For every
twenty something dev that makes $132K, there is a fourty something trying to
rebuild a life post-trauma, doing their best to net $13K. Since insurance and
gas aren't cheaper, the driver now will net $6K next year, while the dev would
jump ship to another company if they didn't get a $6K bonus. While my head
understands the economic principles that drive that reality, my heart doesn't
understand how such a thing needs to happen.

~~~
Barrin92
Same with canteen workers, janitors and so forth. It's the reality of this
economy without any intervention.

>my heart doesn't understand how such a thing needs to happen.

That's why developers, who have the economic leverage, should stand up for
everyone working at their companies, including staff that isn't involved in
technical work.

~~~
chii
So would the tech workers cut 10% of their salary and gift it to those working
for low pay in other roles?

I think it's overwhelmingly no. The option where the company shareholders take
less profit is not even on the table - and that's what needs tackling, and the
only way to tackle that is via a mix of govt welfare and unions. But the
cultural narrative has shifted to the right so much that even mentioning the
word union will cause a chilling effect on your career. No ones' gonna do it.

~~~
burger_moon
If I gave up 10% of my salary and someone else making much less got to raise
of the equivalent of my 10%, I'd do it in a heart beat.

~~~
woah
Couldn't you easily do exactly that any time you want?

------
Pxtl
Sooner or later the us is going to have to sit down and have a long and hard
conversation about this "independent contractor" nonsense.

~~~
jtms
Why do you think it’s even a remotely good idea to tell people when, where,
and how they spend their time and energy?

~~~
Pxtl
You could apply that kind of thinking to all labour laws. Should the minimum
wage be abolished? Vacation time? Overtime?

------
troydavis
[https://therideshareguy.com/uber-lowering-
rates/](https://therideshareguy.com/uber-lowering-rates/) is a detailed
analysis of these (or very similar) changes. It's more complex than this
headline or article makes it seem. The gist is that, at least in the markets
covered by TheRideShareGuy's article, mileage rates are going down a little
and time rates are going up significantly.

------
simonrobb
I think “in LA” deserves a mention in the title.

~~~
nvr219
nah

------
_cs2017_
I can't quite understand the economics of this rate drop (which happened only
in the LA market, btw). Here's my analysis, please let me know if you see
anything wrong with it.

Uber makes 25% commission from the per-mile fee, so the total revenues to Uber
and to the drivers is moving in the same direction. I assume Uber wouldn't
drop the rate unless their revenue increased. So they must know that (1) the
lower fee will be more than offset by the increased demand, and (2) they will
have enough drivers to meet that greater demand.

It must be that the total money received by all drivers will go up. So each
driver will make more money before expenses (not per hour, but in total).

How will Uber meet the increased demand? Sure, the drivers will be better
utilized (less time without passengers), but would that really be enough? Or
does Uber expect the drivers will work longer hours? I suppose it's possible
that people really desperate for cash will work more even as they are paid (a
lot) less. That would be both very sad and very hard to believe (since at this
point McDonalds pays better than Uber, after accounting for gas and wear &
tear on the car).

Anyway, if somehow the hours per driver stay the same, the gross income per
hour will grow. Income after expenses will grow by an even greater percentage.

I really would like to understand whether the increased gross revenue per
driver will come from longer hours or not.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
You're overcomplicating it somewhat by separating things out that could
reasonably just be averaged together.

The real question is what the supply and demand curves look like. It's
possible for everyone to make more money by reducing prices and making it up
on volume, if that's what happens.

If you're a driver and you currently spend a lot of time sitting around
waiting for riders, and the lower prices reduce that wasteful idle time, you
can end up making more money, even working the same number of hours, by
driving more miles in the same number of hours.

But that's assuming the lower prices spur sufficient additional demand to
compensate for the lower rate per mile, which is going to depend on the
specifics of the local market.

~~~
_cs2017_
I agree with you. I guess I'm asking how likely is the (quite appealing)
scenario you describe?

The volume increase will more than offset the price drop -- otherwise Uber
would have no incentive to drop the price in the first place. What else do we
need to know to predict the outcome on drivers pay?

~~~
AnthonyMouse
Predicting this kind of stuff is a rabbit hole. Suppose there is a strip of
struggling restaurants downtown in an area with insufficient parking, so that
your ride service is the best way to get there. If you lower prices by
$.10/mile, you just lose money. If you lower prices by $.20/mile, the lower
transportation cost allows the restaurants get enough new customers that they
can make improvements, and then the restaurant improvements attract even more
customers. Those customers are also your customers, and having many customers
going to and from the same small area is your best case scenario because it
allows you to pick up and drop off in the same place at the same time, so then
you make more money too.

It's generally easier to just try it and see what happens, and then deduce the
how from the what. Note however that this will not necessarily be the same
thing that happens in another area or at another time, because of all the
things that can be different and affect the outcome.

~~~
_cs2017_
If Uber was not reasonably confident in their predictive models, they'd be
shifting rates by like 1% per week to test the waters, instead of 25% in a
day. And if Uber can have good predictive models, maybe independent economists
who study this market could make somewhat decent predictions as well.

------
xrd
I just got back from Brazil. There is a startup ride sharing service called 99
that is interesting.

As a comparison, a ride that costs 40 R$ (~$12 USD) on Uber will cost half
that on 99. And, I heard while I was there that incredibly 99 pays the drivers
more.

I don't know if this is a technical advancement that 99 hasn't needed to make
the massive investment that Uber did now that lots more is understood about
the ride sharing market, or if Brazilian VCs are pumping money in, or what.
But, I experimented with 99 and it was much cheaper.

I stopped using them when a driver let the fare run for an hour after I got
out of the vehicle. Unlike Uber there is no cancel button. I'm not sure if
this was fraud or he turned off his phone or what, but the experience was
terrible trying to get it resolved for an hour.

The most interesting thing is that there are startups attacking the incumbents
(Uber and Lyft). The exciting thing is that Uber demonstrated incredible
growth patterns like no company we've ever seen. I wonder if it will
demonstrate shrinkage like nothing we've ever seen. I have no loyalty to them
but Lyft isn't in Brazil and after that experience with 99 I stopped using it.

Fun times.

~~~
maximente
in Colombia, there's an app that allows the person soliciting the ride to
offer a price, then various drivers can either counter offer or take the fare
as bid

~~~
xrd
As a foreigner, I would hate that choice. I want to use an app that makes me
feel like the parties are aligned on the agreement. When the driver didn't
cancel my fare, it made me suspect he was needing to cheat me to make it fair,
and I stopped using 99 completely since I started to assume everyone would
need to do something like that to make money. A poor marketplace if that is
the case.

------
danielcampos93
My wife and I have had a little different experience. About 1.5 years ago we
took up deliervinf food with Caviar/Uber eats to get out and pay for our
dates. She and I would go for 2 hours maybe 2-3 nights a week. On average she
and I both made ~$26 per hour. Since we rode bikes we paid no
insurance/parking/etc. I tried once doing it for 8 hours a day and my earnings
went down to like $6 per hour.

------
rdlecler1
This seems like a bad idea on the grounds that the backlash is likely to put
Uber in a worse position by further making the case for unions and employment
benefits. But that will likely happen after the IPO when they’ve used this to
juice their revenue.

------
SubiculumCode
Naively this does seem like it should be an industry where the take could be
small. I don't understand why Uber and Lyft are losing money actually.

------
RandomInteger4
How does dropping rates make any sense when gas prices are on the rise?

~~~
maxxxxx
More profit for Uber? They don't give a f..k about the drivers.

~~~
umanwizard
Uber has never made a profit.

------
bfrog
In Chicago traffic I think that'd equate to maybe $3 an hour

------
ileri62
good. The (car)-sharing industry can't die soon enough

------
cdoxsey
Lyft and Uber allow you to tip your driver. If you feel like they're not payed
a sustainable wage, why not voluntarily give them more money?

I suspect a significant number of riders are pretty well off. Why not be
exceedingly generous? Tip the driver 10 or 20$.

~~~
chii
I do not like the idea that tipping is required for sustainable pay.

tipping should be a bonus, for a job well done. Tipping is meant to be a
reward for extra-mile service. Tipping is NOT for just merely doing the job.

By making tipping part of sustainable wage, you're just subsidising the wages
that the employer should be paying. It's both unfair and unethical.

~~~
cdoxsey
I'm paying the person I received the service from. Me handing someone extra
cash is neither unfair nor unethical.

If you feel like Uber is doing something wrong there's a trivial solution.
Just pay your driver more.

Sure it doesn't solve Uber's problems, it doesn't change the behavior of
anyone else, but it does solve your personal culpability. (If you feel you
have such culpability)

------
chrisseaton
> As independent contractors who can’t unionize

Anyone can unionise (well apart from military, law enforcement, prison guards,
etc).

Even unemployed people can join unions. Whether your employer chooses to have
anything to do with your union is another matter of course.

~~~
mwilliaams
Uh, law enforcement unions are huge and very influential

~~~
chrisseaton
Ah must be different to the UK then.

------
remote_phone
These people are complaining that they’re not being paid enough.

Isn’t the proper solution to find another job? If more people stopped driving
for ridesharing companies the prices would rise to attract them back. I don’t
see why they are complaining when unemployment is at an all time low and they
can find a job easily elsewhere. It sounds stupid.

~~~
fiblye
A lot of people turn to jobs like Uber because they can't easily find a job.
There are many people who desperately try for weeks or months to find
employment. Companies like Uber love to prey on such people.

~~~
umanwizard
I don't really understand this argument. Uber didn't create the conditions
causing these people not to be able to find better jobs. If Uber stopped
"preying on" these people, would they be better off? It seems like they'd just
be unemployed.

~~~
fiblye
A slave owner gives an otherwise hungry man food and housing. That doesn't
mean slavery is at all justifiable.

Uber pays people who otherwise might not have a job at all. That doesn't mean
paying them incredibly low wages is something that should be free of
criticism.

~~~
ars
> A slave owner gives an otherwise hungry man food and housing. That doesn't
> mean slavery is at all justifiable.

Slave by its very definition implies lack of choice by the other person.

> Uber pays people who otherwise might not have a job at all. That doesn't
> mean paying them incredibly low wages is something that should be free of
> criticism.

Yes, actually, it does mean that. That's the nature of _choice_.

If someone is offering you something you otherwise would not have, you don't
get the right to complain that they are not giving you more.

~~~
Forge36
I'm not following your logic, are you suggesting you wouldn't ask for a raise?

There are a lot of moving pieces. The abolishment of slavery didn't end
slavery and it's conditions. It changed the name and the rules. Many slaves
became trapped in indentured servitude without enough pay to cover the cost of
housing.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude)
Eventually this became illegal as well, another tactic was paying employees
through company credits to buy goods at the company store. Eventually this too
became illegal. During all of this Jim Crow laws were made to prevent further
integration, schooling, and the advancement to higher paying jobs. The origin
of the phrase grandfather clause came about as a way to prevent voting for
representatives who could represent them.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause)

This hasn't ended either, we now deal with gerrymandering.

I don't believe the ability choose a log of last resort means that job can be
free of criticism. Yes it provides a vital service: given that service is
insufficient to meet basic needs, improvements are needed. That may mean
better services to provide jobs or providing a minimum pay with which basic
needs can be guaranteed.

~~~
umanwizard
> given that service is insufficient to meet basic needs, improvements are
> needed

Sure, and why is it Uber's responsibility to make those improvements?

~~~
fiblye
Is your argument that companies have zero responsibility to pay their
employees reasonably?

What is even the purpose of a company? Make unicorn valuation through low
wages, write a couple blog posts, then dip?

~~~
umanwizard
> Is your argument that companies have zero responsibility to pay their
> employees reasonably?

Yeah, that sums it up. Companies have a responsibility to keep the agreements
they make, and to not _harm_ anyone. They don't have a positive responsibility
to _improve_ people's lives -- they're not charities.

> What is even the purpose of a company?

To make some people better off than they were before, by way of voluntary
exchange, without hurting anyone.

If they're not doing that, if they're actually making people worse off than
they would be otherwise, then that should of course be stopped.

