

Immigration Issues for a Canadian working for Microsoft - grouma
http://blog.garyroumanis.com/immigration-issues

======
arjunnarayan
Degrees granted to me in the US: B.A., M.Eng, and soon, Ph.D.

Estimated cost of educating me paid for in entirety by American individuals
(Private+Government): $600,000.

Chances of me getting to stay in the US:

Scenario 1: I get a tenure track job at an R-1 University, and I am exempt
from the H1-B cap. The subsequent waiting time for my green card application
is not long as I will be able to apply under the EB-1 track. Probability: Low
to very low. The academic market is a crapshoot, and I need to churn out some
serious publications over the next 3-4 years.

Scenario 2: I get employed at a Google/Microsoft class firm and they sponsor
an H1-B. I wait the estimated 5 years for an EB-2 green card application to go
through. Probability: very low to almost nil, as I don't want to be locked in
for 5 years in such a job unless I get a researcher position (i.e. at MSR).

Scenario 3: I start a company. So I have a runway of about 29 months (which is
how long the US allows a graduate to stay and work under OPT rules) to either
make millions of dollars and reapply under O-1/H1-B. Otherwise, I am
definitely out of the country as there is no way for me to stay in the US.
Probability of success: low to very low.

Scenario 4: I marry an American girl and get a Green Card as a spouse of a
citizen. Probability: low. I won't compromise my current/future relationships
and/or hasten my life goals in order to stay in this country. Not when Canada
is such an attractive option (with my degrees and partial French speaking
ability I earn enough points under their system to get permanent residency on
arrival).

Political status of this bullshit:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/why-
cong...](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/why-congress-
might-kill-the-most-obvious-policy-idea-in-america/262630/)

Return on investment for American interests: Likely zero.

~~~
shreyansj
Your probability for Scenario 2 is very low to almost nil. Why is that. You
are aiming for R-1 university but you are not confident of getting into MSR
etc? And you can still switch jobs while your Green Card application is
pending. I think it's called AC21 though I am not exactly sure on the exact
terminology.

On a side note, H1-B is cap exempt for ALL educational institutes and non-
profit organizations.

~~~
neilk
You cannot switch jobs and keep the same Green Card application. It's true you
can transfer an H-1B between employers but any associated Green Card
application is lost if you leave them.

~~~
refurb
This is only true during the labor certification or PERM part of the green
card application. There are typically three phases to an employment-based
green card app:

1\. Labor certification/PERM (proof there is a need by the company) 2\. I-140
application (proof you fill that need) 3\. I-485 (formal application to
receive PR)

It's been a few years since I went through the process, but basically, as soon
as you've completed step 1, you can apply for steps 2 and 3. Once you've
applied for 2 and 3, you receive an EAD card (work authorization).

It's always a little dicey to switch jobs with just the EAD because
employment-based greens card require that you _intended_ to work for the
employer who sponsored you. If you leave right after getting the EAD, your
application may be denied because they don't believe you ever intended to work
for your sponsor.

This is actually a pretty sweet position to be in because the company that
hires you only has to keep applying for an EAD card for you. Pretty simple and
not a lot of money.

Typically, if you wait 6 months or so after sending in the I-140/I-485, you
can switch companies (through AC21). However, you need to find another job
that is substantially similar to the one that was the basis of your green card
application, you can't just take any job you want.

~~~
neilk
I've never heard of this before, from either my lawyer or any of the lawyers
for any of the firms I've worked for. And I have asked this question
specifically, because in my case, it may take much longer than normal to get a
Green Card. But I'll investigate.

~~~
refurb
I did a quick google search and it appears that in order to switch jobs you
need to have your I-140 approved, so I did misspeak on that point.

However, since the labor certification part (PERM) is a much quicker process
and you can file for your I-140 and I-485 concurrently, it's not unreasonable
to assume that from the date you first start the process, you'll likely to be
able to switch jobs after 2 years or so.

This is actually really important for those poor souls from India and China
who have priority dates that still in the 90s and won't likely get the
physical green card for at least 5 years if not longer.

One thing to keep in mind is that lawyers often disagree as to how to
interpret the USCIS regulations. I've had lawyers say "Jesus! Don't even leave
the country!" and others say "Yeah, it's fine to switch jobs, no problem." It
just depends on how risk adverse they are.

------
nadeemk
Don't get me started on immigration issues.

2004 - I applied to do my Master's in the United States, I had great financial
aid in a good school and great GRE scores.

Student Visa? Neither approved nor Denied : Placed in indefinite limbo because
I have a muslim name which brought up some flag in their database. Btw. my
surname is the 'John Smith' of muslim names.

I gave up and went to Canada to pursue my education at McGill. Fantastic
experience. Eventually landed a job in US and got my H1B this time. Thought
the visa issues were behind me. I was wrong.

2007 - My mom applied for a US visa to come visit me. Neither approved/nor
denied (Section 221(g) - name check).

2008 - My dad and mom both applied for a US visa to come visit me. Neither
approved/nor denied - same reason.

2011 - After living in working in US for about 5 years and having gotten
multiple visa stamps, I got to Vancouver to get my visa renewed. Placed under
limbo again! Stayed in Vancouver for weeks before they 'cleared me'.

2012 - My mom applies again. Result? you guessed the answer. Visa limbo.

I'm facing another visa renewal soon and I'm prepared for another night-marish
episode.

Oh yeah, forget about green card - the queue for my country has ensured that
I'll be lucky to get it in this lifetime, pretty much screwing up my ability
to take chances with starting my own start-up in the US.

The thing is that I really like living in this country, the work opportunities
and its people. But the more I deal with the immigration system, the more un-
welcomed and temporary I feel here.

------
stblack
The Canada–United States Free Trade Agreement was negotiated between 1985 and
late 1987, and was signed in January 1988.

The language of the treaty hasn't been meaningfully adjusted in over 25-years.

Therefore when you are going through the process, you should relate what
you'll be doing in mid-1980's terms, especially during questioning.

For example, something computer systems analysts supposedly do in the 1980's
is draw flow charts. Call it that, because modern variants of that won't be on
the checklist.

The border agents, who are all regular and normal people, seek what's
specifically described in the treaty. So wise-up, and be prepared to hit the
correct notes. Everything invented since 1987 isn't part of being a computer
systems analyst under the treaty.

The border agents know this, and interpret the treaty to some degree under
current circumstances. But forget about showing the border agent how much you
know. You need to relate to what they know: the treaty, as written.

~~~
grouma
Very true. I tried my best to hit those bullet points but unfortunately
failed.

~~~
brg
Why did you continue to go to the same border crossing?

~~~
ojbyrne
Using different border crossings is seen as a red flag by the agents.

~~~
grouma
This.

------
lhcjackson
Had a similar experience. I came from Toronto and I am working in the states
right now. I was hired as a computer engineer. I got rejected the first time
for my TN visa simply because the officer asked me, does your job involve
writing code? And I answered yes. Then he proceeds, so you are basically a
programmer. We don't allow programmers into our country. He wouldn't listen to
my explanation and further claim that I was not qualified and I was only hired
because I was cheap. (which is not true, I am well compensated)

Then the second time around, I had to lie and claim that I do zero programming
for my job, and only "design" and "engineer" stuff. Lol....

~~~
grouma
I've read countless stories similar to yours. It all seems like verbiage to
me.

------
johnnymonster
I really feel your pain. For a lot of people reading this article, its not
going to make a whole lot of sense. They are just going to think that you
don't really deserve to be here no matter how much good you contribute to this
earth.

I really can't stand this of ignorance!

Without going into a personal rant about this whole thing, I really want to
find out if you are already "here" in the US?

If you are NOT here yet, I am going to give you fair warning NOTHING is
garunteed until you are across the border!

I don't care if you have an approved H-1B visa! This means nothing. The border
patrol agent has the FINAL say and can deny your entry into the US for ANY
REASON AT ALL! I repeat! You can be denied ENTRY with an APPROVED H-1B!!

Make sure you have all your facts straight when you are going to cross! Your
denial of entry is a HUGE problem. that is going to throw up RED flags like no
other when trying to cross the border so please make sure you work closely
with your lawyers here!

I really hope that all works out well for you and good luck! If you are
already in the country and are just waiting to work! I'm really happy that you
made it past all those bastard border patrol agents!

~~~
ido
Yeah this really irks me, not just about the US but immigration in most 1st
world countries is a pain in the butt.

"a million people naturalize every year, so it can't be that hard" - I'll bet
none of the people that say that has first hand experience in immigrating.

It is an infuriatingly opaque and arbitrary process & there is often very
little you can do about it.

------
throwaway1979
Sorry to hear this. As a Canadian in the US on an H1B, I've stopped visiting
Canada :( This really sucks because I can't visit friends/family easily any
more. The last foreign trip I had (was a quick visit to Europe for a
conference), the border agent went through every single page of my
documentation pack and asked me questions (intention of the questions seemed
designed to trip me up on minor details). I hope the situation gets better one
of these days :( :(

~~~
minwcnt5
Your situation sounds extremely bizarre. There should be no reason to avoid
traveling outside the US if you're a Canadian on an H-1B. Except maybe if it's
about to expire and you have an application for an extension pending. (My
employer's immigration team suggested I not travel under such circumstances.)

FWIW, I've travelled in outside of the US around 20-30 times on TN/H-1B status
and never encountered problems. On most of these trips I've re-entered at YYZ
(Toronto), and most of the time the border agent doesn't ask me any questions
at all. Occasionally they ask me what I do, who I work for, or where I live.
One time I was asked about what type of software I write and possibly what my
salary was. I've never been asked for any more details than that.

I guess it's possible I just get an easier time than you because of profiling:
white, male, well-known employer, typical Canadian/US accent, no trips to
strange countries, etc.

------
tatsuke95
> _"Although I am Canadian I spent my middle school and high school years in
> Raleigh, NC"_

> _"After I graduated from McGill in June"_

Curious, did you pay out-of-country tuition rates to attend school here? I
hope so, considering you didn't live, nor plan to work here.

Keeping in mind that all I have to go on is this little tale, I ask because it
seems like you (and your family) have done a lot of walking through the grey
area of immigration, skirting rules to take advantage of what both countries
offer their citizens. Apparently it caught up to you.

Edit: For the downvoters: I'm Canadian. I don't appreciate that someone who
essentially grew up in the US came back here to take advantage of our federal
and provincial tax-dollar _subsidized_ resident tuition, only to turn around
and leave the country for the US again the instant he graduated. Had he never
left the US for school, would this have happened?

~~~
bosch
I don't understand why people are down voting this comment. It seems like the
OP is a "citizen of convenience" like those in Lebanon who only wanted to make
use of their Canadian citizenship when war broke out despite the fact that
some of them hadn't been back to Canada in 5+ years.

Not that this really has a place in the main discussion, although it does
involve citizenship in a different way.

~~~
grouma
I understand your point of view. I didn't return to Canada for convenience
though. I returned because McGill is phenomenal school. Moreover, I knew I
would need to do internships during university. This would not be possible
while under my mother's TN visa.

~~~
bosch
I appreciate your story, but it's very frustrating when people like you take
away spots in tax payer funded universities from REAL Canadians who plan on
staying and working to make this country a better place.

I hope the laws get changed to avoid loopholes like this in the future.

~~~
ktizo
Do things become more real if you say real in capital letters?

------
minwcnt5
If my memory is correct, the immigration team at my company recommended that I
cross the border at an airport. Apparently these kind of problems may occur
more often at land crossings. One might speculate it's because airports
process a much higher volume and are therefore more used to this sort of
thing, but I don't know if that's true.

Another thing my employer's immigration team definitely warned when I did
apply for an H-1B was to be careful about traveling while the application was
pending. The TN visa requires non immigrant intent, and they were concerned
that a border agent might interpret an open application for H-1B as intent to
immigrate. They strongly recommended that if I did travel that I not volunteer
the fact that I have an H-1B pending. It's interesting that MSFT started your
H-1B case before you were in the US, and I wonder if that had any effect.

------
neilk
According to the lawyers I have had, and my own personal experience, it is a
bad idea to try to obtain a TN visa at a land crossing. Your chances of
success are higher if you go through the airport.

~~~
cunac
I got 3 TN visas on Buffalo border , if your papers are decent there should be
no issue and I was applying under Management Consultant category (arguably
hardest type of TN to get) Why would you risk wasting your airplane ticket in
case visa is denied ?

~~~
neilk
I think that's the point. It shows that you're the kind of guy that can do
that (and/or the company you work for). They are trying to stop immigration
scams with TN visas filed by dummy corporations.

------
anigbrowl
The distinction between capital and labor perpetuates and absurd protectionism
and is a major obstacle to economic growth. Immigration is a free trade issue.

~~~
ktizo
Is both a free trade and a human rights issue. The desire to migrate and live
and work in different places around the world should need no greater
justification than mere idle curiousity and I believe that the current
approach to state borders does nothing but stoke xenophobia and mistrust
around the world.

Also, I come from the UK, which has more UK citizens working abroad than
foreign citizens working here, all while some sections of the press runs
stories about how foreign workers are crowding people out of jobs. I keep
trying to ask people who support banning all foreign labour, what they think
will happen when everywhere else bans UK labour from their countries in return
and all those UK expat workers, with their wealth of experience, come flooding
back in greater numbers than the foreign workers that have just been kicked
out, so leading to even greater unemployment, while at the same time
guaranteeing that nobody would really want to trade with us anymore. These
kind of conversations often end somewhat badly for some reason.

Perhaps it might be because I tend to also mention the view that it is a bit
rich for the UK to be complaining too loudly about immigration considering how
big the empire grew from us going around and rudely sticking flags in other
people's stuff.

------
paulschreiber
Do not go through land crossings in Washington State. Just don't do it. Your
friends were right.

------
mcpherrinm
Of my graduating class, a large enough number were going to the United States,
most of which got through without a hitch.

The only problems I've heard happened at the very crossing mentioned in this
post -- Blaine, WA. I know that I'll make sure to never cross there to get a
"Computer Systems Analyst" TN.

------
ashayh
The entire process is horribly broken.

While in theory one can switch jobs during the Green Card process, in practice
it is a paperwork nightmare, with plenty of IFs and BUTS to slow you down.

It is compounded by the fact that it is not in the companies best interest to
let the employee acquire a green card asap. The company lawyers are therefore
never in a hurry, and may not go for the most expeditious process.

In addition, there is rampant fraud committed by H1/L1 sweat shops. And the
checks created by the Govt to check fraud, place an un-necessary burden on the
employee, as opposed to the Govt agencies and employers.

------
suthakamal
One tip to make life easier after obtaining a visa to work in the US : Apply
for Nexus as soon as you can.

------
Metrop0218
That's rough. I know a couple Canadians who went through a similar process
(also for Microsoft) and had no problems. Shame to hear this guy had such a
shitty experience.

------
smoyer
That seems like an awful lot of effort just to go work at Microsoft. Now maybe
if it was Google, Apple or Facebook. Or one of those super-cool SV start-ups.

 _tongue planted firmly in cheek_

