
REI to shut on Black Friday to have employees go outside - iamchmod
http://optoutside.rei.com/
======
securingsincity
For those who don't know, this fits really well into everything REI stands
for. They are a Coop where you can join and as a shareholder a customer can
make back a percentage of what they purchase. Both them, the products by
vendors sold in their store and their competitors (LLBean, Patagonia) pride
themselves on reuse by offering many loose warranties, these are often
lifetime warranties.

As someone whose father worked retail for 30 years, and working several Black
Fridays myself, I can't say I wasn't moved.

~~~
morganm
Are they really a co-op any more, or has the organization been co-opted by
executives?

Members can vote for board members, but only after they have been approved by
the "Nominating and Governance Committee". Executive pay is also not
disclosed.

REI used to offer a lifetime guarantee on every product they sold. Sadly, this
was abused by many people which I believe left no other option than to limit
it. This used to make up for paying full retail for everything.
Backcountry.com soon followed suite by reducing their warranty accordingly.

As a climber, I've noticed their selection in that department has dwindled
quite dramatically over the years.

Maybe these things aren't practical in today's world. For me, they are slowly
transitioning from an amazing store I would plug every chance I got, to just
another retailer.

If you're ever in Canada, be sure to check out MEC. They still have a lifetime
guarantee and their house brand is top-notch and of exceptional value.

~~~
ramatevish
I was told by an REI employee that a large motivator for the change in return
policy was the 2008 financial crisis. She mentioned a lot of people were
returning decades old equipment. I personally feel a year is more than fair,
and I have absolutely no reason to demand more from them in that regard.

~~~
morganm
From my view, the lifetime guarantee meant that REI's incentives were aligned
with mine: stock only the highest quality items and have an extremely
knowledgable staff to access my needs and pair me with said products.

I've had a couple instances were a product failed well outside of 1 year. I
could have warrantied through the manufacturer, but REI handled it for me and
I had a replacement in 5 minutes. That outstanding service is no longer.

~~~
mattlutze
No piece of equipment will last forever, though, and that lifetime guarantee
wasn't sustainable.

Sure, if I take care of my boots they last a while. Should I get my money back
or have them resoled for free if the glue fails 2x or 3x after the
manufacturer said it was guaranteed? Probably not. If the DWR on my rain
jacket can't be refreshed, or a plastic connector on an extendable hiking
stick fails after a thousand miles in the mountains?

A year feels like a big change from "forever". Maybe 2 or 3 would have made a
better headline, but again you've got people that will have learned about the
program (I've been a member since 2003 and never knew about the lifetime
guarantee...) and will pick stuff up with the express purpose of beating it up
then getting it replaced or returned. That's not good to me as a co-op member,
either, because it puts pressure on the company to raise prices to cover the
cost of returns and repairs.

~~~
scott_karana
> No piece of equipment will last forever, though, and that lifetime guarantee
> wasn't sustainable.

Not in theory, but it _was_ sustainable if it was really just a mutual
contract of quality transactions.

The majority of REI members wouldn't have returned a worn out pair of boots, I
suspect. But then the economy crashed. :/

~~~
mattlutze
Yeah... unfortunately they should have / have to build their business around
those sorts of situations.

------
steven2012
Good for them. I'm old enough so that I've been to enough Black Friday sales
that I know nothing but shit is offered. I don't even leave the house on Black
Friday simply because it's such a pain to go anywhere. I'd rather pay extra
and avoid the lines, so good on REI for hopefully starting a trend that rolls
back Black Friday a little.

~~~
froo
As a non American.. it really confuses the heck out of me that Black Friday
sales are starting on the preceding Thursday at like 6pm in some cases.

~~~
adevine
As an American, it confuses the heck out of me, too.

I sometimes think of the "retail ruining of Thanksgiving" as a pretty good
argument against libertarianism. That is, if government mandated that stores
can't open on Thanksgiving, pretty much EVERYONE benefits: stores don't really
WANT to open early, they just want to open before their competitors. A
mandated open time prevents the "race to the bottom... of Thanksgiving
morning". Similarly, bargain hunters don't want to miss out on Thanksgiving
either - they just want to get the best deals.

~~~
webXL
Merchants and consumers _voluntarily_ doing something on or around a holiday
you personally revere is _definitely not_ an argument against libertarianism.
Your "pretty much EVERYONE benefits" line is though, since libertarianism is
very much concerned with individual rights over majority rule.

Keep in mind that some people not only like to stretch their dollar, but they
don't have the luxury of shopping online, or when the malls are open. Not
everyone works 9-5 on weekdays. Not everyone owns a computer, has broadband,
or is computer savvy. And not everyone saves their "thanks" and family time
for the last Thursday in November (some people actually bond during Black
Friday shopping!). Majority opinion, thank God, is not how we run this
country.

~~~
r00fus
Keep in mind that stores employ people, and those employees don't often get a
say in whether they work black friday or not (not if they want to stay very
long at that store).

Ultimately, that's why I kind of finally got on board with the fact that most
stores (and even restaurants) are closed on Sundays in France - especially
since the rule on whether a store can be open on Sunday is that the _owner of
the store_ needs to be present during all business hours.

~~~
lmm
How are they defining ownership? If someone takes out a mortgage on their
store do they have to get the bank manager down there whenever they're open?
Can a big firm nominate some putz to be the owner of record?

~~~
r00fus
No on either, from my knowledge. Local towns also have stricter ownership laws
and less franchises.

~~~
lmm
The point is that the two are economically equivalent.

------
daxfohl
My first thought was to figure out the strategy to improve earnings here. It
wasn't until a few minutes later that it hit me, there _isn 't_ one (gasp).

And then it occurred to me that, isn't it weird that we live in a world where
this is almost unthinkable? Running a business like it's just something you
want to do? Just...weird.

~~~
daxfohl
@existentialcoms has a pretty relevant tweet to this perspective six hours
ago:

I don't know what the meaning of life is, but if it isn't "working hard so the
shareholders can make more money", then we are in trouble.

~~~
pyre
Well, the "shareholders" here include employees and customers. From that
perspective, some of the shareholders _are_ gaining something from getting a
paid day off (arguably even the customers are gaining from having happy
retails workers to help them in-store).

------
chrismealy
At some point the Black Friday arms race becomes so insane the only move left
is to quit. REI is too cool for this bullshit anyway.

~~~
rkuykendall-com
Not the ONLY move...

[http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/52a1db6969bedd87275...](http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/52a1db6969bedd87275aaf04-500-322/cardsale.jpg)

------
jason_slack
Dear REI,

When I need something "outdoor-sy", I come to your store. The staff can always
answer my questions, they do it wirh respect and passion. You are a little
more expensive than ordering online, but I pay the extra money for the
detailed service I always receive.

I applaud closing on Black Friday and having the employees go outside. I mean,
you sell outdoor gear, this lets your employees get a no stress day to enjoy
what they sell. This gesture and demonstration of your core beliefs will
continue my dedication to shop at your locations.

Thank You,

A Customer.

------
gry
“The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and
unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low
it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers. One’s
own employees ought to be one’s own best customers.”

\-- Henry Ford

~~~
pyre
This can't apply generally though. For example, how many workers that
manufacturer yachts are going to be able to afford them? What about cruise
liners or oil tankers? What about (e.g.) dental supplies? Should all employees
in the manufacture and distribution of those supplies be licensed dentists?

~~~
sharkweek
While I applaud the principle of the quote, the overall philosophy always
remind me of Office Space:

Peter Gibbons: Our high school guidance counselor used to ask us what you'd do
if you had a million dollars and you didn't have to work. And invariably what
you'd say was supposed to be your career. So, if you wanted to fix old cars
then you're supposed to be an auto mechanic.

Samir: So what did you say?

Peter Gibbons: I never had an answer. I guess that's why I'm working at
Initech.

Michael Bolton: No, you're working at Initech because that question is
bullshit to begin with. If everyone listened to her, there'd be no janitors,
because no one would clean shit up if they had a million dollars.

------
nostromo
Maybe Black Friday is developing the GroupOn problem.

It's a great way to lose money on the worst customers that will never come
back anyway.

~~~
smt88
They don't lose money on Black Friday. In fact, they make a tremendous amount
of money. That's why it's "black" \-- going from red (negative earnings) to
black. This is because they sell the products at a low price, but they're
still profiting.

Also, retailers _gain_ loyalty from low prices, rather than lose it.

~~~
supercanuck
The only reason they make money, is simply they are adding more days to the
"retail calendar." Those loss leaders are still getting traffic through the
door when there use to be none. Something is greater than zero.

~~~
ascagnel_
The problem is that the loss leaders go on sale at some ridiculous hour (I'm
not waking up to go shopping at 5am when there's a big crowd). Unless you're
willing to get up very early for cheap stuff, the shelves will be picked
clean.

~~~
smt88
Not true. Many retailers have their Black Friday deals online as well. The
only difficult thing about getting the loss leaders is timing the purchase
before the supply runs out.

------
brandonmenc
When I was in retail I loved working Black Friday - the day went by fast, and
you could usually snag overtime.

~~~
marpstar
Me too. I feel like it's a rite of passage as an American teenager. I guess
the people who have families of their own are the most affected, but Black
Friday was at least exciting compared to every other day of the year.

------
owly
Dear AppleStore, I dare you.

~~~
landryraccoon
Apple doesn't even pretend that they care about anything other than money.

~~~
kfriede
And REI has some history of caring for the employees and customers more than
profits. Apple doesn't have this history, and would get ridiculed for having
ulterior motives.

------
Zelphyr
In case anyone at REI corporate is reading;

I applaud this move and will likely be getting a membership as a result.

------
pm24601
What an excellent way to get and retain quality employees. Too bad REI can't
suck all the good workers out of Walmart.

~~~
erobbins
I'm sure both of them would come over with a decent offer :)

------
stephenitis
It would be funny if REI employees ended up going outside to camp at
electronic and department stores as a result...

It'd be nice to see their employees sharing stories as a result.

p.s check out [http://www.hipcamp.com](http://www.hipcamp.com)

~~~
chetanahuja
_" if REI employees ended up going outside to camp at"_

They're certainly well equipped for said camping.

------
tdicola
Enjoy the outdoors.. in late November?

~~~
manachar
The old adage, "there's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothes" is
especially relevant to REI staff and customers.

Some activities work better than others of course.

------
juddlyon
Seems like a genuinely cool move and good business at the same time. Good for
them.

------
joeclark77
Won't they all just go shopping?

~~~
joeclark77
Wow... tough crowd.

------
blazespin
They're a co-op and can't afford to discount on Black Friday. Seems fairly
straightforward.

~~~
thaumaturgy
REI has sales, clearances, warehouse sales, seasonal sales, discounts, "garage
sales" (used/returned/rental gear), etc. all the time.

------
whafro
REI changed their return policy from effectively "forever" to one year. Sounds
like perhaps that move gives them the freedom to pay all their employees for a
day during their slow season.

~~~
gkoberger
One year still seems like an overwhelmingly liberal return policy. They're
just trying to find the balance between being fair to customers, and being
taken advantage of as a rental agency.

~~~
voltagex_
Heh. I was shocked at how bad consumers have it in NA -
[https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-
guarantees...](https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-
guarantees/repair-replace-refund)

~~~
refurb
Umm... that's different. REI is known to allow you to _return a product for a
refund even when nothing is wrong with it._

Your links infers to a law that gets you a refund _if something is wrong with
the product._

~~~
voltagex_
Right - but REI is unusual, right? I believe Costco has the same policy.

------
herbig
Will their website not be taking orders as well? I love REI, but this is a
pretty transparent marketing ploy.

Also relevant:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_Nothing_Day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_Nothing_Day)

~~~
ryguytilidie
I have witnessed the folks on this site being nitty, but this is just a whole
new level. Because a company gave all of their employees the day off, they
have to either take their website down or be called hypocrites by some HN
user...? How on earth is this a remotely sensible position to take?

~~~
jonah
Not terribly germane to this this OP but there _are_ people who "close" their
online stores at times.

One example is B&H Photo -
[http://www.bhphotovideo.com/](http://www.bhphotovideo.com/) On the footer of
their pages it says: "Please note that B&H does not process web orders from
Friday evening to Saturday evening." I would assume that in the sect of
Judaism the owners belong to letting your site take orders constitutes work.

Another example is my Girlfriend - she closes her Etsy shop when she goes on
vacation because she'd rather not take orders and have customers wait for her
to return for them to be fulfilled.

~~~
Eric_WVGG
“assume” oh goodness you have no idea.

I live in the Brooklyn Hasidic neighborhood. A couple weeks ago, one of the
gentlemen flagged me down on a Friday night. He needed me, a complete
stranger, to come into his home at 11pm, go down to the basement, and push the
"open" button on his dryer so his wife could retrieve clean towels for their
(many) children.

Operating a machine of any kind, to the extent of pushing a button,
constitutes work in their culture. There’s a whole wikipedia page about the
ongoing controversy over whether it’s okay to use light switches during
Shabbat or not.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat)

(they thanked me with a slice of cake, which was nice)

~~~
jonah
Great anecdote! He just needs some sort of Rube Goldberg device to do it for
him.

There's the whole Shabbat Technology industry - finding Kosher ways of using
modern conveniences in accordance with the Sabbath laws.[1] For example, these
folks make a bunch of devices:
[http://www.zomet.org.il/eng/](http://www.zomet.org.il/eng/)

[1] I'm reminded of the non-electric tools the Amish adapt and use.
[http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/02/22/172626089/insid...](http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/02/22/172626089/inside-
an-amish-trade-show)

