

America's Most Overrated Product: the Bachelor's Degree - mlLK
http://chronicle.com/free/v54/i34/34b01701.htm

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apsurd
Actually I think the umbrella concept is really just that that colleges are
businesses. So it is illogical for customers to think that these entities
would NOT run as a business i.e. streamline customer turnover, optimize
resources, cut costs where possible, market like theres no tomorrow, and MARK
UP. This is a gross oversimplification but the point, which i think people
really do miss, is that college runs on money, they want your money, and they
will do what they need to do to get it.

Post secondary education is not some altruistic gift sent down by the Gods;
its an industry that has managed to market a product as 'indispensable' to
your childs future; the college degree. The author is simply saying we should
treat this consumer product like we would treat ANY OTHER consumer product.
Look at reviews, consider cost/benefits, value propositions, long term worth.
We should do our research and shop around. We should know not all brands are
created equal. And of course we should all take a step back and realize that
80% of what we are seeing is a finely tuned marketing campaign. I hope more
people read this article, not because 'degrees are bad' but because all
consumers should do their research.

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nradov
It's funny how the price vs. demand curve is often inverted in the education
marketplace. Charging higher prices signals customers to think that the
education must really be better, and so more students try to get in even when
the actual quality of education is no better than at cheaper schools.

Having more data available about the value added by each school would
certainly help eliminate this market inefficiency. But if that value add were
to be calculated using a standardized test taken by all entering freshmen and
graduating seniors that could lead to unintended consequences, such as
teaching to the exam rather than providing a liberal education.

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lg
I don't think price makes people think it's a better education; I think it's
US News rankings and popular hearsay put out by books and movies. I bet that
everyone who shops diligently for these things believes that the Cooper Union
is great, but that expensive non-famous liberal arts colleges are not.

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lallysingh
Clearly the problem with the US is that we have too much education.

Ugh. Complaining about the drop rate is valid. Sure. But blaming individual
actors for systemic failure is no better than blaming your loan officer for
the economic meltdown.

Note that critiques of education follow two lines:

1\. You don't get enough for your first job (e.g. real-life skills --- such as
C++/Java).

2\. You don't get enough for the rest of your life (e.g. critical thinking).

A cute dichotomy, but unsatisfying. Frankly what I don't like about all this
is the static "learn" phase followed by the static "work" phase. I grew up
working while in school (not the heroic part-time school, part-time student
way, just the lazy "I need RAM money, time for a summer gig" method). I like
the idea, and it's made me a better student and a better professional
programmer.

What gets me is little incentive I see for people to alternate between school
& work. Either you work 12 hrs a day (8 for work, 4 for school), or give up
work (& salary) to go back. Neither are good choices if you've got a spouse
and kids.

Are there employers that give you a break on responsibilities (at least in
hard time) to get an advanced degree? The payoff in smarter employees seems
pretty worthwhile.

It'd be better to make undergrad less of a make-or-break situation, and more
of a path of work/learning that continues for the rest of your life. But eh,
that's more touchy/feely than most would like.

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noodle
this is a terrible article.

the degree itself is not bad, the schools and programs are the things that
should be criticized individually. i am content with my degree, because i made
it through the curriculum. two of my pals who started with me couldn't cut it,
and they were both pretty sharp guys. dropout/failure rate from my major at my
school _was_ something like 65%. (i don't know what it is now, could be easier
to slide by nowadays)

just because some schools and majors don't have standards doesn't mean that
all schools and majors don't have standards.

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run4yourlives
I think you missed the point when you get hung up on the fact that he'd prefer
standards. His larger point is this:

 _College is a wise choice for far fewer people than are currently encouraged
to consider it._

He's not so much speaking to you, but to your two buddies that couldn't hack
it.

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noodle
i don't think i missed the point. i understand what he's saying, but he jumps
between two points and fallaciously labels it.

a bachelor's is not overrated. nor is a masters or doctorate. the issue is
that technical and vocational schools (the 2 year degrees) are underrated.
people view them as for the stupid kids, which is patently false.

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razzmataz
I think part of the problem is that the way the schools are set up they only
encourage doing enough to get by, and don't encourage learning for learning's
sake. What concerned me about the article is the author's espousal of some
sort of universal test. I think most college students would probably only be
motivated enough to learn enough to pass the test, and miss out on more
important skills.

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zandorg
My degree was a great education in Scheme and AI (Prolog, Bayes, search). I
met a few people who I don't talk to much anymore.

My AI was one-to-one, with a couple of lecturers, because I was simply the
only person that year to take it. I guess that's why I learned a lot.

I decided not to take a job placement for the 3rd year, as I needed to finish
the course before I lost interest.

Do you do the degree quickly or postpone a year with a job?

I got a 2:2 which doesn't look very impressive to employers, but I don't
regret taking the degree. An opportunity will come along.

That's one issue - Do you flunk year after year until your grades are at the
top, or do you do the degree as quickly as possible and get a lower grade?

~~~
mamama
Not all of us went to MIT.

~~~
zandorg
I didn't go to MIT, I was just lucky they let me take AI in the 2nd and 3rd
years. In the 1st year, I did well in a regional computer quiz that we
entered, so when I needed the head of the school to shout at the people
deciding I shouldn't do AI, he did, and I got to do AI one-on-one.

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fnazeeri
That is an absolutely terrible, myopic analysis. Instead of saying that our
nation's education system is not adequately preparing students for college,
it's making the argument that college is taking advantage of unprepared
students.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

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tptacek
It doesn't simply say that students are unprepared; it says that colleges do a
bad job of teaching, because they staff teaching jobs with people who are
trained and competant only to do research work. When it asserts that colleges
take advantage of students, it backs it up with arguments like "students end
up in large lecture classes" or classes taught by grad students.

~~~
hugh
I think this is a problem with the students as well.

Kindergarteners need to be taught by people who are trained for teaching.
Eleven-year-olds need to be taught by people who are trained for teaching. But
by the time you get to the the university level, you're supposed to be clever
enough that you can pick up a subject just by having one of the world's super-
experts in the field stand up and ramble in front of you for a while. If you
can't learn without hand-holding, you don't belong at university.

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vaksel
I think the problem with the degrees is that they focus way too much on the
concepts and way too little on practice. Schools need to offer and require at
least one class where you spend days actually doing the jobs available for
your major. Instead of doing BS work problems where instead of using Excel
like they do in the real world, you have to use a blank piece of paper.

~~~
bbgm
To offer the contrarian view, I know many who've changed careers and explored
alternative paths because they had a sound conceptual understanding. Yes, you
can't just be theoretical, but I'd argue that you go a lot further when you
know why you are using Excel in the first place and what you want to achieve
with it.

~~~
vaksel
well thats the thing in most cases the teachers will talk about the concepts
without really touching on how to apply them in real life. So sure you might
know what an integer is and know what that does in all languages, but that
won't help you program competently

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bbgm
No it won't but if you don't know what an integer is, how are you going to
program simple math? You have to understand the basics. Programming is
implementation, and of course, must be taught well to be mastered, but it
becomes a whole lot easier if you understand what you're trying to program.
It's not the best analogy in the world, but hopefully makes some sense

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firestrike
Let's be honest...the value of post-secondary education is measured in terms
of life-experience, not professional. Am I better equipped to function as an
economist armed with a degree in economics? Sure. Am I better equipped as a
person to function rationally, efficiently and humanely with four years of
campus life under my belt? Without question.

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helveticaman
I had never thought of this. I don't agree that it's overrated, but I agree it
can be overrated and marketed too heavily.

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nazgulnarsil
bachelor degrees are only overrated because of grade inflation.

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newt0311
Way to generalize. The points mentioned in this article do not apply to the
top tier colleges at all. Consider Harvard, or MIT, or Caltech. These colleges
have no problem with cost. The suggestions mentioned in the article will
needlessly weigh down these institutions. In return for "protecting" the
lowest common denominator who have trouble even with graduating from a 4-yr
institutions, we will sacrifice the competitiveness of these top thinkers of
our time. Historically, never a good trade off.

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moonpolysoft
This article is argued from the assumption that college ought to be like a
factory. Comparing dropout rates with the failure rates of manufactured goods
is a complete non sequitur.

