
No Cash Needed at This Cafe: Students Pay the Tab with Their Personal Data - lnguyen
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/09/29/643386327/no-cash-needed-at-this-cafe-students-pay-the-tab-with-their-personal-data
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josephpmay
This is literally Ad Buddies in the TV show Maniac.

I’d probably do it. They’re open about what data they collect and what they
use it for, which is better than many of the websites I use

~~~
satori99
That was my first thought also...

"We have specially trained staff members who give students additional
information about our sponsors while they enjoy their coffee."

What's not to enjoy about a fresh cup of coffee, payed for by a stranger who
has special training in reading ads at you? Specifically at you.

I wonder if the customers<?> are allowed to not pay attention? or give
incorrect information?

~~~
Fellshard
Frankly, I'd be pulled out of the experience because of just how meta it is.
It would be like holding up a mirror at you, causing you to evaluate why they
choose to advertise to you _like that_, and which products it targets you
with.

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abtom
They have this at my university. Their main model seems to be advertising.
Though personal data is required at sign up, it isn't significantly more than
what would be on your resume.

You need to sign up with your details on a website and need to activate a QR
code each time you visit. Show the code at the counter to collect coffee. As
you collect your cup of coffee, the barista speaks out an advertisement (yes,
really) which is a short description about one of the sponsor companies. There
is a limit on number of cups you can take per hour and day. I've never used it
but it's immensely popular among students and even professors.

There is no option to pay for the coffee and bypass the advertisements/sign up
process. Can't wait until all food and drinks everywhere are "free" this way.

~~~
Nursie
Have you seen the recent Netflix series "Maniac"?

"Adbuddy" is a service in that where you can get stuff bought for you, but a
'buddy' turns up to advertise at you.

\--edit-- notice this has already been brought up down-thread

~~~
philipodonnell
This is the first thing I thought of after finishing that show last week.
Prescient.

------
nisse72
_To get the free coffee, university students must [...]_

Funny, the definition of "free" seems to have changed.

It may be that no money changes hands, but the coffee is certainly not free.

~~~
paradite
Coffee is free in the same way Facebook and Google services are free.

Honestly I would expect more services like this to come out, given how
successful Facebook and Google managed to become.

~~~
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC
> Coffee is free in the same way Facebook and Google services are free.

So, it is not free, just as Facebook and Google services aren't - which is
exactly what GP said. So ... what is your point?

~~~
justtopost
His point, and one I share with great reservation, is that the distinction
might be moot now thanks to a changing understanding (selling?) of the various
meanings and understanings of "free". The jaded concept of 'nothing is really
free' carries with it a cold chunk of truth, and people are baking it in.
People think they have to surrender agency and personal dignity for basic
services.

~~~
leetcrew
> People think they have to surrender agency and personal dignity for basic
> services.

who seriously thinks this? the only services i can think of off the top of my
head that don't have viable paid alternatives are facebook and google search.
and there's at least one decent alternative to google search that is a bit
more privacy focused.

for most people, privacy isn't even worth a $5 monthly subscription.

------
alphabettsy
It’s unfortunate that this is what privacy advocates are up against: "Maybe I
should have been more apprehensive, but everyone has your information at this
point anyway," she said. "To give out my name and email and what I study does
not seem so risky to me."

Unfortunately this kinda of apathy doesn’t leave much room for those who don’t
want to give up their information. There is no alternate model for companies
like Facebook or LinkedIn that allows for possibly paying users to maintain
some level of privacy.

~~~
aendruk
University students as a demographic have traditionally been capable of rising
to enact social change motivated by principle or altruism.

I think the answer here is to remember that individual privacy as a social
norm is healthy for your community, regardless of whether you personally
expect to need it.

------
ken
College kids have no money, and want to be connected with companies. Companies
have money, and want to hire people. It sounds sketchy, but is this really so
different than companies hosting tech talks at college, exchanging contact
info with participants, and buying pizza for the event?

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smelendez
This isn't that different to me from a lot of college job fairs where you drop
your resume at the door or upload it online, except it's open every day.

I definitely remember a lot of events like "bring your resume, hear from a
panel about exciting careers in X, and eat free pizza!!"

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hansy
I actually like this.

1.) Totally opt-in. Unless this cafe holds a monopoly on the coffee market on
this college campus, students can choose to participate.

2.) It seems like the students have some control over what data to share.
Hopefully it's not a binary all-or-nothing situation, but if there's a chance
students can share whatever they want (and receive tiered cafe services in
proportion to whatever they share), that seems kinda interesting.

I'm more than happy to grant companies access to me. But I want something in
return. In this case, maybe a chai latte?

~~~
kardos
> I'm more than happy to grant companies access to me. But I want something in
> return. In this case, maybe a chai latte?

I think you're undervaluing yourself at 4 bucks

~~~
codyb
But would a years worth of chai latte's, or 4 be worth it?

It's certainly not a one off as apparently they have limits for per hour and
per day.

~~~
kardos
I dunno, I wouldn't set foot in such a place.

It seems to me that this idea is a race to the bottom. If people continue to
give up first level information (name, address, etc) it devalues it because
that info becomes commonplace and widely distributed. So what happens then --
dig deeper into your life? Does the 2019 version of this cafe want complete
access to your phone / laptop? What about the 2020 version?

The only wining move is not to play.

~~~
codyb
Oh yea I'm a huge privacy advocate and wouldn't set a foot in a place like
that either. Although it's getting harder and harder it seems. Was just
commenting that you get more than a 4 dollar latte.

------
TomMckenny
You should assume that Equifax or the like will eventually implement a Chinese
style social credit system which Banks, Employers and Landlords etc will use
and will be judged legal because "contracts"

Your daily habits, used for who knows what purpose over the many decades
remaining in your life, are worth a hell of a lot more than a latte.

~~~
apatters
There is a difference though. A system implemented by Equifax would presumably
look at your social media habits or phone usage and say, "Sorry, we're denying
you a loan because our data indicates that you may default."

The Chinese social credit system looks at your social media and phone usage
and says, "Sorry, we're denying you a loan because you were critical of the
government."

It is fair to criticize the prospective Equifax system and the concerns around
pervasive data collection are valid. But the Chinese system is in a whole
different, far more evil league.

> While English-language media describe China’s social credit system as a
> Black Mirror-like authoritarian implementation, Chinese social media users
> seem to focus more on the advantages than the burdens.

This is a remarkably tone-deaf observation given that _talking about the
burdens will get them imposed on you._

~~~
adrianN
Such a system, once in place, is really easy to change to filter for any kind
of criteria. One must prevent the infrastructure for large scale surveillance.
It's not okay just because you agree with its planned mode of use.

~~~
Someone
You may not even need to change it.

Fed with enough data, a ML system should be able to derive _“We’re denying you
a loan because you’re likely to default on it because you’re likely to lose
your job because you’re critical of the government”_.

It likely wouldn’t be able to express that to humans that way, though, so
humans would say _“We’re denying you a loan because the computer says we
should”_

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ReverseCold
Normally I'm very against personal data leaks like this, but in this case it
looks to be mutually beneficial. Companies recruit the people at the coffee
shop (who are all university students/professors), and the people giving away
personal information (which you do anyway on your CV) get free coffee and
maybe even a career.

Of course, that's based on this article. In reality it might be much worse.

~~~
Kagerjay
I think there is still a very large and unexplored market of opt-in based
advertising, this is a good example.

Other examples might be at gas stations, get reduced fare if you listen to
targeted ad etc. Or ads when inside an uber. I dont mind targeted advertising
actually (if its actually interesting to me), sometimes I wish I could see
more of it but I have adblock running everywhere

Another example I see is sponsored pizza at tech meetups and sponsors etc

~~~
softawre
It's fairly well explored, I think. Remember Netzero?

~~~
Kagerjay
Can't remember, I looked it up I'm guessing its free internet with adspam.
Wasn't this around the time DSL became more mainstream after dial up?

------
Buge
>Alex Inoue, Shiru Cafe's general manager, wrote in an email that the cafe
does not give out data on specific students. But it does provide general,
aggregate data such as student majors and expected graduation years.

I don't see how aggregated data would be valuable enough to fund the cafe. You
could probably find that aggregated data via the university's own statistics.
The article also says they collect phone numbers and email addresses, but this
quote says they don't give them out, which seems a bit strange to me. And JP
Morgan hired 40% of its hires from the cafe, but it wasn't given their phone
numbers or emails? I guess it's possible but it also seems strange.

If you think of the cafe like a job recruitment site, such as Linkedin,
Indeed, or Triplebyte, then it would be expected that the site would provide
some way for employers to contact candidates. Handing out email and phone
number might be considered acceptable, or alternatively providing an
intermediary messaging service might be better.

~~~
maaaats
Maybe instead of "here are 50 emails you can buy" it's more like "pay us to
send an email to 50 students". In the second case no data is shared.

------
harshulpandav
_To get the free coffee, university students must give away their names, phone
numbers, email addresses and majors, or in Brown 's lingo, concentrations.
Students also provide dates of birth and professional interests_

Well, what if the student comes again for another coffee? What new/different
data does/can he give?

~~~
jeannekamikaze
The fact that you came again is likely a valuable piece of data. And now you
are identifiable, so if this is scaled to several coffee shops (not that this
particular one would, but as a general idea), you get some pretty decent
location tracking right there without having to sell people expensive devices
with elusive privacy controls. Probably somewhat of an overshoot (or maybe
not?), but given that companies like Google sell you local ads based on where
you are, I can see why this approach would be valuable.

------
fma
Does that mean you get free coffee everyday or a one time deal? If its
everyday then it's a decent amount of rewards for what essentially LinkedIn is
getting for free.

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0xb100db1ade
> "Maybe I should have been more apprehensive, but everyone has your
> information at this point anyway," she said. "To give out my name and email
> and what I study does not seem so risky to me."

I hear this a lot. As a privacy advocate myself, what is the best response to
this?

~~~
samontar
Maybe recognize that what you care about isn’t what others care about.

------
shorttime
How is this even validated or profitable? Companies ask me for various
information all the time and I usually just make it up or use an old #, old
zip code, etc. Once they have the data, then how do they make money?

~~~
rapnie
If some of these companies still manage to correlate this fake data to you
(i.e. you didn't play the game well enough), it might earn you the flag
'untrustworthy' on your profile, and you'll experience the blowback from that.

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godman_8
Seems like the data they're using is pretty static, I wonder how they make
money off repeat customers?

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jtl999
What's preventing me from feeding them garbage? (other then my university
affiliation?)

~~~
rapnie
The risk of getting some really bad character traits attached to your profile,
if they still manage to identify you.

------
nicodjimenez
I think (hope) this is the beginning of a big new trend.

Instead of having people and services steal my personal information to show me
BS ads, let me sell my own personal data and maybe then you can show some ads
for stuff I might actually be interested in.

You might argue that advertisers have too much access to our personal data,
but I'd argue they don't have enough.

~~~
SheinhardtWigCo
And what happens when the ad company holding the personal data of 50 million
people gets compromised?

~~~
nicodjimenez
It depends. What can you really do with stolen data about the legit buying
interests of 50 million people?

~~~
SheinhardtWigCo
It’s not just buying interests, though, is it? It’s where you go, who you talk
to, what you talk about, your sexual preferences, bank balance, religious
views, whether you have weapons in your home, whether you’re having an illicit
affair, what medications you’re taking, etc.

~~~
matz1
I don't really care if someone end up having this information of me, its when
they use this information to do actual harm me that I care, but in this case
its already illegal to do so.

~~~
SheinhardtWigCo
It’s maybe not a big deal on an individual level, sure - but imagine the
damage one could inflict on humanity by having this dataset for world leaders
or even whole populations.

~~~
matz1
For world leaders, as a public figure, hopefully these information is already
public. If that the case then what is the harm?

Ideally (hoping), in the future, these information should be made public for
everyone, to level the playing field.

~~~
vageli
The parent specifically mentioned this information becoming available:

> It’s not just buying interests, though, is it? It’s where you go, who you
> talk to, what you talk about, your sexual preferences, bank balance,
> religious views, whether you have weapons in your home, whether you’re
> having an illicit affair, what medications you’re taking, etc.

I don't think this level of detail exists for most public leaders. Do you know
the bank balance of the leader of your country?

~~~
matz1
Like I said in my response, if its not public then ideally I'm hopping for
these information to public for everyone, to level the playing fields.

------
amaccuish
> But if handing over personal data seems invasive, Ferris said the students
> don't seem to mind. She doesn't think she has seen a single customer refuse
> to give up the data.

I mean, I just wouldn't go to this cafe because of my personal view, so that
data point may not show what they want it to show.

------
fanzhang
Maybe with more traditional businesses charging not in cash, but in data, we
can finally establish an equivalency between the two.

This can be useful in proving how certain companies (maybe Facebook, Google)
can be monopolies in overcharging users in data space due to the lack of
competition.

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jwilk
Text-only version:

[https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=643386327](https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=643386327)

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pteredactyl
As an option, yes. But as the only option, no. I prefer to spend cash. It's a
hassle to manage but it gives me peace of mind.

------
Latteland
Besides being horrified at a forthcoming world where more businesses do this,
I am also surprised there's that much money in in person advertising. If I had
free coffee I would spend 10$ a day at least. There 10$ of advertiser value in
2 or 3 30 second spiels?

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qrbLPHiKpiux
My God. They are paying with very expensive currency. Cash would be the
cheapest way to pay.

------
qwerty456127
Sounds like an abuse of the youth naivety. Many people don't care about their
future until they graduate and make their fair amount of mistakes and selling
their privacy is going to be among the mistakes they'll probably regret later.

------
quadrangle
This is like a college student, coffee version of time-share vacation
promotion things.

------
make3
i'd definitely use a vpn if I went there

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DanFeldman
[https://xkcd.com/2006/](https://xkcd.com/2006/) Relevant XKCD, to an extreme.

------
teddyh
Predicted in 2015:

[http://onthefastrack.com/comics/april-14-2015/](http://onthefastrack.com/comics/april-14-2015/)

------
torgian
Today I learned my data is worth one cup of coffee.

------
hartator
Techincaly, it’s just corporate sponsorship of a coffeshop. Shockingly,
student’s data are not worth unlimited coffee.

------
clubm8
What stops a student from giving false information?

Tyler Durden, lover of crafts and urban exploration, would like one espresso.

------
DonbunEf7
Talk about discrimination against non-students. Like students are some kind of
special snowflakes. I'm going to sue them for this breach of my rights.

~~~
justtopost
Seems like its actually the studends being discriminated against. Students are
always the low hanging fruit for these ideas, as they tend to be less
thougutful and more impulsive, yet have just been granted full adulting powers
before actually having the frame of refrence to use them.

------
bibbitybobbity
Welcome to timeshare, reinvented

------
mng42
This is the future.

~~~
a_imho
Well, Europeans _in theory_ have Right to Erasure.

------
RandomInteger4
This is nauseating.

~~~
RaleyField
I welcome it for two reasons.

First reason is that the transaction is more transparent. Contrast that to
what is happening on the internet - in the cafe informed consent is given
explicitly instead of implicitly and from often less informed internet users.

Second reason is that it will perhaps unintentionally push into consciousness
of people the notion that private information has real, tangible value which
would hopefully translate into change of awareness and attitude on the
internet to treats to privacy that exist there that I think we both find more
nauseating.

Shiru Cafe into every city!

~~~
rapnie
> First reason is that the transaction is more transparent.

Is it? If this concept takes off, these places will be set up for maximum data
collection. I don't give consent to use my PII, but the camera in the corner
has facial recognition, tracks what I eat, how I eat it, who I am with, etc.

I'll definitely avoid these places.

