
Anonymized list of engineering salaries from bootcamp grads - tmeyster
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JR4KrVH1dygniLiLFAMTvdSp5gGLVKKkOxBYiPQagvE/edit?usp=sharing
======
marcell
1\. These salaries are for Bootcamp graduates, which means they'll be lower
than someone with 5 years experience in programming.

2\. These salaries are likely for the Bay Area, where a 1br apartment can cost
you $3k+, and your tax rate will be 35% (state + federal). It's not comparable
to places with lower tax rates and lower cost of living.

~~~
throwaway2016a
Location does make a huge difference. I make $110,000 as a CTO with 20 years
experience but if you calculate for cost of living differences that is
$164,162 in San Fransisco.

Although I'm probable still underpaid if #1 is true... some of these salaries
are approaching that.

~~~
Cyclone_
$110K as a CTO does seem low to me. Do you mind if I ask where you live?

~~~
daxorid
I earn far less than that, as CTO of a Southern California e-commerce company.

The salaries in this spreadsheet seem incredibly high for one year of
experience.

~~~
1dundundun
The salaries aren't high. It's just that you're getting screwed.

------
arkadiyt
Here's another one that has 3600 salaries:
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1a1Df6dg2Pby1UoNl...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1a1Df6dg2Pby1UoNlZU2l0FEykKsQKttu7O6q7iQd2bU/edit#gid=1023506792)

~~~
learned
This data doesn't seem too reliably sourced. Sorting by ascending years of
experience shows negative numbers with the top entry being -9001 and an annual
base pay of "a trap a day makes the boner go away"...

~~~
11thEarlOfMar
The data is not scrubbed at all [0], but once scrubbed looks believable.

Per this self-reported data, base Salary for engineer-class jobs (excluding
management)in the San Francisco Bay Area pays:

1 yr. experience $104,000.

5 yr. $132,000

10 yr. $175,000

15+ yr. $171,000

Cash bonuses average about 7% of base salary.

[0]Most salaries are written out fully ($120,000). But enough are in $1,000s
($120) to throw it off if you're doing any averaging.

Location naming is all over the place:

\- San Francisco

\- SFO

\- San Francisco Bay Area

\- Bay Area

\- San Jose

\- San Carlos

\- Mountain View

\- Sunnyvale

etc.

Job title is all over the place...

So you'll need to do some scrubbing in order to get it to a useful state.

------
overcast
Honestly was expecting a lot more, considering the salaries people throw
around on Hacker News. Using
[http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-
of-l...](http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-
calculator.aspx) the adjusted value for $136,000 in SF to where I live in New
York is a decent chunk less. Especially being in a DevOps/Systems role, and
not a Software Dev one.

~~~
ryandrake
Everyone on HN makes $200K+, drives a BMW and has a supermodel for a partner.
Whenever salary comes up, there's always someone here who knows someone whose
brother's girlfriend's room-mate makes $400K at Google, and therefore it's
normal for a Software Engineer to make this much.

The averages in this spreadsheet seem to agree _roughly_ with average/median
for the Bay Area as reported by Glassdoor[1] and Payscale[2].

1: [https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-
en...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-engineer-
salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,31.htm)

2:
[http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa...](http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary/a5e48575/San-
Francisco-CA)

~~~
dsacco
_> it's normal for a Software Engineer to make this much_

Yeah I wouldn't say "normal" (how should we quantify that?), but they do
exist. Most engineers at Google, Facebook, etc. don't pass the senior level,
and that's the last engineering rung everyone is expected to at least achieve.

But if you do know staff or senior staff engineers at Google and Facebook
working in NYC or SF, it is disproportionately likely that they are earning in
excess of $300k/year between salary, bonus and stock grants. I know people
like that directly, and I also know undergrads who are receiving between
$120-$150k/year in coastal cities in total compensation offers amortized over
four years.

People probably aren't lying on Hacker News, the medium just lends itself to
reporting bias. Large forums like this have enough participants that I'm not
really surprised when 10 or so people come into a thread and claim to earn
something like half a million per year. It looks outlandish but there is a
vast swath of engineers who are just not speaking up; for the distribution,
it's probably about right. It's not as if people are claiming these salaries
as base compensation before bonus and stock.

~~~
pc86
> _in total compensation offers amortized over four years._

Which is an incredibly disingenuous way to phrase it. As a new graduate you
can't pay rent with stock grants that vest in 48 months.

The value of $1 worth of stock 4 year from now is work a small fraction of $1
in someone's paycheck today, especially when they're just starting out. That
$120k "in coastal cities" (just say NYC/SF) is closer to $75-80k in cash
compensation, before discretionary bonus, which means in San Francisco you've
got a 2-hour one way commute from your studio with 4 roommates.

And what's the average tenure of someone at a tech company these days? A year
and half, maybe two? So your 4-year average compensation including stock
grants, discretionary bonuses, free beer and catered food, etc is still well
above average when you consider many people won't get half of what needs to
vest.

~~~
hlc
Almost all new grad offers vest 25% of equity in one year, then it is
typically monthly, quarterly at most.

------
learc83
Look at the company names, I'm not buying this for graduates of a 12 week
bootcamp.

Either this bootcamp is very selective in who they admit, or they are very
selective in which salaries they show.

The only way you're passing multiple rounds of interviews at
google/facebook/big name sv company after 12 weeks of study is if you already
had a _significant_ knowledge base before hand, you're some kind of algorithms
savant, or you got _incredibly_ lucky.

~~~
timbuckley
I'm an App Academy grad. I don't work at Google myself, but I know a few who
do.

App Academy is indeed extremely selective, with an acceptance rate less than
3%.

The salaries shown are all self-reported (App Academy isn't releasing this),
so there is likely some sample bias for sure.

And you doubt that a/A grads work at Google or similar companies? See for
yourself:
[https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrent...](https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrentCompany=%5B%221441%22%5D&keywords=App%20Academy&origin=FACETED_SEARCH&school=App%20Academy)

~~~
learc83
No I don't doubt they work at Google--I doubt that it's what they learned at
app academy that got them the job at Google.

You can't​ take someone new to programming and train them to pass a Google
interview in 12 weeks.

~~~
nycbootcamp
I did this and 1 other person did this in my cohort.

The flaw with your assumption is that you're new to programming by the time
you start a/A. By the time you start a/A you can already solve sophomore-level
algorithms problems.

~~~
learc83
>The flaw with your assumption

I never assumed that. I prefaced my assertion with: unless you have a
significant knowledge base going in.

I've done a bit of reading up on app academy and from what I can tell it's a
pretty standard curriculum, but it includes 80-100 hours per week of work.

It's basically a 12 week long interview that's doesn't so much _train_
developers as it does _select_ them.

------
GolDDranks
Is it only me or aren't these wages crazy high for people with only 0-2 years
of experience?

I started as a fresh software engineer in Tokyo this year, and I'm making
around $37k a year. I think that newbies earn about that much in Helsinki,
Finland, too, where I'm originally from.

~~~
mi100hael
California is financial fairy tale land in every way. Wages, taxes, real
estate, and cost of living are all crazy high.

~~~
GolDDranks
How strong financial "gradients" there are around the Bay area? Do people try
to come up with all kinds of remote work scenarios etc. to be able to earn the
same wages without having to pay for living there?

How do people who are not software engineers, manage? Are all wages high?

~~~
rconti
Not really. Some people take their bay area salary and swing it into remote
work somewhere else. But most of us like it here and have no desire to move.
High cost of living = higher pay. High housing costs = higher expected
appreciation. And most people just pay the piper and deal with it. It doesn't
seem particularly difficult to afford living here, versus anywhere else I've
been. It's just a different world. My sister owned a house in Rochester for 5
years, and when they sold it, they were worried about being able to get the
money they paid for it, let alone pay the agent. A roof costs 20% the purchase
price. All of a sudden renting looks more attractive. This is not to say
you're guaranteed to make money on real estate in SF or Boston or wherever,
just that it's a different game, and you can't bring all of your old
assumptions into it.

Whether you're in SF or the middle of Wyoming, how many people really optimize
for retirement? The software engineer in SF might treat herself to a nicer car
after a few years of good raises. The rancher in Wyoming might buy a newer
side-by-side for hunting trips after having a few good years. Almost nobody
goes full Mr Money Moustache and restricts their spending as much as possible
in order to retire as soon as possible. Most people spend most of the money
they make and make a vague plan to retire somewhere around 65. So if you're
going to spend a decent chunk of what you make, why not do it in the Valley
versus anywhere else?

If you're looking to get out as soon as possible, ABSOLUTELY get an SF salary,
move to Wyoming, and live in a trailer. Or, better yet, a foreign country with
an even lower cost of living.

For the rest of us, we have hobbies, families, interests outside of work, and
uprooting all of it to move to Wyoming to save some money is just as
unthinkable as cutting all hobbies and travel and dining out expenses just to
sit on the couch every night.

~~~
mi100hael
This comment is hilariously "Bay Area."

 _> The rancher in Wyoming might buy a newer side-by-side for hunting trips
after having a few good years._

Right, because everyone outside the Bay Area lives in a double-wide.

 _> Most people spend most of the money they make and make a vague plan to
retire somewhere around 65. So if you're going to spend a decent chunk of what
you make, why not do it in the Valley versus anywhere else?_

This is a ludicrous strawman. Most employees in technical fields in average
American cities have the means to make a concrete retirement plan, build an
emergency fund, and live debt-free without going full-Mustache. My first year
out of college, I was spending maybe 20% of my income on a 700sqft 1BR
apartment with off-street parking in a walkable, safe neighborhood in a clean,
well-educated midwestern city. Now I spend 20% of my income on a short, low-
rate mortgage that would be several million dollars in the Bay Area.

 _> For the rest of us, we have hobbies, families, interests outside of work,
and uprooting all of it to move to Wyoming to save some money is just as
unthinkable as cutting all hobbies and travel and dining out expenses just to
sit on the couch every night._

For the rest of us outside the Bay Area, we too have hobbies, families, the
option of financial security, and moving to the Bay Area for nice weather and
snobs who think the rest of the country lives in trailer parks is just as
unthinkable as whatever else it is you think we do in the rest of the country.

------
dopamean
This is really data from bootcamp grads (the top of the spreadsheet says so).

~~~
ben174
This is an important distinction. The salaries on this sheet seem low overall,
and it's probably because they're new grads from bootcamp. Someone with 10+
years of experience should be demanding more than the average salary on this
list.

~~~
seanhandley
You're kidding me.

I'm in the UK, 10 years dev experience, BSc Computer Science.

Every single salary in that list is higher than mine.

~~~
ktu100
anecdotal evidence from Facebook: if you transfer to London office instead of
Bay Area, your salary gets slashed 20%

~~~
bencoder
That would still be very high for London/uk

------
orthoganol
Bootcamp marketing methinks? I have never met a _recent_ bootcamp grad who
seemed even remotely qualified to work at Google as a SWE. Just don't buy it
(keep in mind none of them had CS degrees or worked in industry before). I'd
love to be proven wrong, in a verifiable way.

~~~
timbuckley
People on LinkedIn who have gone to App Academy who currently or previously
work at Google:
[https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrent...](https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrentCompany=%5B%221441%22%5D&keywords=App%20Academy&origin=FACETED_SEARCH&school=App%20Academy)

------
moduspwnens14
Doesn't anonymous sourcing of data like this likely introduce some significant
biases?

~~~
jordache
I would think anonymous contribution is likely to yield more truthful
information.

~~~
moduspwnens14
It (by design) includes only people who self-select to share their
compensation details. I would expect that to skew high, even if 100% truthful.

~~~
jordache
what self gratification does one get by boosting his/her salary when it's
anonymized?

~~~
moduspwnens14
I didn't argue they're likely to boost their salaries, or that they receive
self gratification from doing so, so I'm not sure how to answer your question.

------
gigatexal
Salaries should not be secret. They don't have to be open to tying someone to
a particular salary but I think there should be some law that mandates a
greater transparency here. If economics taught me anything it's that the worst
decisions are made when someone else has more information than you

------
bungie4
This makes me want to cry. I'm below all but one of these entries. 30 years
experience + full stack + dba.

All because of where I live (small northern ontario town -remotism?) and
likley ageism (57). I should be getting paid MORE because of where I live.

~~~
strictnein
Why would your remote location with a lower cost of living(I'm assuming, at
least for housing) mean you should make more?

~~~
pyre
The more remote the location, the higher the cost of non-housing things are.
Shipping in groceries to Yellow Knife costs more than shipping groceries to
Toronto, even though Toronto's housing prices are significantly more.

------
linkregister
These seem higher than most of my colleagues straight out of very reputable CS
degree programs.

This doesn't make much sense since it appears most of these a/A (App Academy)
finishers don't have relevant work experience and degrees.

It looks like App Academy really helps its participants negotiate salary and
interview well. A few people have fairly senior titles. The reason for that
isn't apparent.

~~~
superplussed
Yeah, the senior titles for people with 1 or 1.5 years out of bootcamp don't
make any sense at all, and cast doubt on the validity of the data. Come on,
we've all worked with smart people that are a year or two in to being a
developer, and you can't label them "senior" no matter how smart they are.

Is it possible that someone from one or more bootcamps is fluffing the data,
knowing that it will get posted on HN?

~~~
morgtheborg
Eh, if you're one of the few devs at a startup it's easy to get a "senior"
title. It comes down to responsibility. Now whether any sane startup should be
HIRING as one of their primary devs a recent grad is another question
entirely.

------
heipei
These numbers are interesting, but could non-US folks please stop crying about
the crazy high absolute numbers before doing some basic math and adjusting for
other metrics besides total salary?

I always use Numbeo ([https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/)) to compare cost of living,
and quite often find that I would need to double my salary to have the same
standard of living in SV or NYC, which would put me right in the middle of
this list. But, and that's the bigger point here, this does not factor in that
I could never live in places like the Valley, or work at some of the places on
this list without being unhappy most of the time. I know this sounds harsh
towards some folks here, but if you're happy where you currently are please do
the math and really be honest to yourself about your priorities. Often you'll
find that the grass isn't greener on the other side...

~~~
twic
> These numbers are interesting, but could non-US folks please stop crying
> about the crazy high absolute numbers before doing some basic math and
> adjusting for other metrics besides total salary?

Quite a few of us non-US folks are in London, which is only 13% cheaper than
San Francisco, so we will continue crying, thank you very much.

------
Element_
For comparison see average Police and Firefighter salaries in California:
[http://www.sacbee.com/site-
services/databases/article2573210...](http://www.sacbee.com/site-
services/databases/article2573210.html)

A police lieutenant in Mountain View averages 198k

~~~
linkregister
Wow, I'm in the wrong industry. I could be walking Castro Street on this sunny
day, breaking up fistfights over which is the superior text editor; handing
out speeding tickets to Teslas, McLarens, and Lamborghinis; giving parking
tickets to exotic cars spilling all over the street for the latest open house.

All for way more money than almost everyone I know is making. Not bad at all.

------
komali2
Wow, totally editable. I'm completely shocked this hasn't just been replaced
by a picture of a penis yet.

~~~
dpeck
a disturbingly accurate observation about the internet.

------
negrit
Shameless plug but I made a website to search through almost 7 millions
salaries from 2000 to 2015(I'm currently working on getting more recent data).

[http://www.jobsintech.io/visas](http://www.jobsintech.io/visas)

Unfortunately its only salaries of foreigners.

~~~
linkregister
I like your website. It has more features than h1bdata.info, my normal go-to
for salary comparison.

------
mlent
Who here has actually interviewed Bootcamp graduates? I've had people who
didn't know the difference between an object and an array, and people who had
to comment their way through implementing a function that replicates "filter"
in javascript.

I really don't buy it that people straight out of Bootcamp can land a job at
any of these companies at such salaries. You need a lot more background
knowledge before that.

Or is this a case of survivor bias, where these are the salaries of only the
most qualified graduates who had a ton of background knowledge before going
in?

I don't see it.

~~~
morgtheborg
> I've had people who didn't know the difference between an object and an
> array, and people who had to comment their way through implementing a
> function that replicates "filter" in javascript.

I don't know a single person from my cohort who fits that description...and we
aren't the most selective bootcamp by far.

~~~
mlent
Yeah, I was also shocked that you can graduate a bootcamp without
understanding that. But I watched candidates building a React app with Redux
and literally not understanding, when you ask them to declare an array, what
you even mean by that...

------
jonny_eh
Should this really be publicly editable? Won't it just become a jumbled mess?

~~~
tmeyster
The goal here is to make it easy for some one to add data.

I protected the initial 100+ salaries (Feature in Google Docs). An plan on
locking in rows as more people contribute.

The other option was to do a google form but would of been an extra step.

~~~
nether
Why are they mostly from the same bootcamp?

Why does it say "over 100+" when there are 91 responses?

~~~
flytrap
This was informal survey/spreadsheet passed around specifically between App
Academy alums. Somebody got their hands on it and published it. It's also
pretty old -- we have a newer version that's in use now.

------
markfer
Hey all, I actually work at App Academy in the admissions department. Happened
to see this while at work. These numbers are very much in-line with our
graduate history ($105k average in SF, $89k in NY).

Seems like there is a decent amount of skepticism in this thread, but feel
free to ask me anything!

------
inetknght
Salaries without location is does little useful; I would argue it harms more
than it helps anyone.

~~~
bussierem
All except one of these has an associated location, and that 1 lists
"Facebook" as the company, so a location can be assumed. Not sure what you
meant by this comment.

------
timbuckley
The vast majority of these are App Academy (a/A) programming bootcamp
graduates, which explains why only 10% have CS degrees. Bootcamp graduates are
probably not representative of all CS grads, or even most devs, so take this
with a grain of salt.

~~~
linkregister
It looks like App Academy grads vastly out-earn their CS-degreed counterparts.
I wonder if that is representative of App Academy. If so, that is impressive.

~~~
timbuckley
App Academy is extremely selective (less than 3%). Also there is probably
sample bias, since these are all self-reported.

~~~
linkregister
So App Academy is fulfilling the selection process that companies really want?

Sounds like a cheaper way to a $150k salary than spending 4 years at a top CS
university or MBA program.

~~~
timbuckley
Indeed. I'm a graduate (3+ years ago). Best thing I ever did.

------
simon83
And here I am, living in Germany and getting told that asking for 60,000€ p.a.
as a software engineer with 11 years working experience is waaay too much for
most companies. Only the big ones like Bosch, Porsche, Daimler (all non-IT
companies) and a few other exceptions will pay enough for a sustainable life.

At the same time we hear about regular reports about "shortage of skilled
professionals" here in Germany, it's laughable, it's because no one wants to
pay enough money, because cheap students are good enough. And I have to clean
up their mess...

~~~
geodel
But Germany has great public transport, excellent beers, free/close to free
healthcare and liberal icon like Angela Merkel. That is all good
hackers/developers care about.

~~~
simon83
That is all true, but the thing is that most of the developers I know are
single and have lots of time on their hands. Some of them literally play
computer games only in their spare time. I decided I want to have kids and so
I have a family now, and I can tell you having even just 1 kid is expensive
enough. Me and my wife we both work full time, only to have enough spare money
at the end of the month to put aside, just so we can believe this money will
be worth something in 30 years or so (I don't believe it). And we are not
living an extraordinary/luxury life. I'm not materialistic, and I only care
about money because I need it to keep me and my family alive. Germany is quite
expensive in that regard compared to the average salary.

~~~
mlent
What area of software development are you in?

~~~
simon83
I'm currently working as a web developer, with a focus on frontend
development.

~~~
Rezo
You should put some way of contacting you in your HN profile, or message me if
you're open to remote work.

------
JDiculous
Way too much of a hard salary cap on $150k in this industry.

It'd be interesting to see a graph of how much additional compensation every
additional year of experience gets you.

Also, how do I sort this dataset by column (eg. salary)?

------
sbozhko
This might be an interesting sheet to add to this service
[https://spreadshare.co](https://spreadshare.co)?

Here is another one regarding salaries in engineering
[https://spreadshare.co/spreadsheet/salaries-of-
engineers](https://spreadshare.co/spreadsheet/salaries-of-engineers)

------
lightninglu10
I don't know if this has been said yet, but this probably has heavy response
bias. If you're a bootcamp grad making 70k per year, you probably won't report
it.

The top 5-10 kids from each bootcamp per year probably make these high
salaries. It's been years so there's a ton of them around. The others probably
aren't making something this high.

------
randomdata
> Software Developer | Salary: $62,757.0 | Total comp: $80,000

Found the Canadian. I wonder if these are all in USD or local currency?

------
Zaheer
Along these lines though not completely ready for launch yet, been working on
a simple site for comparing title levels across companies. Salary data is more
useful when contextualized across level / experience.

See: [http://www.levels.fyi](http://www.levels.fyi)

------
20years
From this it appears as though a full stack developer makes about the same or
just a little more than a front end or back end developer. Wonder why this is.
I would expect a full stack developer to make at least 1.5x of a FE or BE
being that they are working in both among other things.

------
kayoone
Senior dev salary in Berlin is 60-80k EUR, >40% taxes. Compared to SF and
London, rents are still cheap though. 2BR can be had for 700-1000 depending on
quality and location. I saw a post from Buffer where 60k in Berlin equal
120-130k in SF or NY, not sure if that is true.

------
nloa
As a backend developer living in Germany, these salaries make me want to work
remotely, for a US based company. I only make 40k, with several years of
experience. Does someone here have experience with with working remotely from
Germany?

------
CryoLogic
Hmm, interesting.

I know software engineers with 10-20 years of experience in Seattle making
roughly the same amounts at the same companies.

Is it a selection bias, or are California comp packages really that much
higher than Seattle? (for entry level)

~~~
bcassedy
Bay area has higher cost of living and Washington has no state income tax. But
yes, Bay Area comp packages are higher in raw numbers than those in Seattle.

------
dmoy
Would like to see this with more data, and then filtered down to only rows
with full stock-refresh-vest cycles going on (e.g. if stock vests over 3
years, then only employees with 3+ years tenure, etc).

------
multibit
How are all these engineers with 0-2 years experience making 100k+ ??

~~~
pyre
Keep in mind that most of these are Bay Area positions. These people may be
making $100k+ and still in a living situation with 6 roommates to make ends
meet.

------
mahyarm
I would add a 'company is public' column to this spreadsheet. Even if you
don't disclose the company, you can at least say if you can sell your equity
easily ;)

------
smsm42
Can't sort the table, and copy the whole document (though copy-paste of
individual cells works). Is it Google's fault or is it published in a wrong
way?

------
ForHackernews
Related:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14536254](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14536254)

------
kzisme
What determines if a person receives a signing bonus and the amount normally?
Some received none while others with less experience received more...?

------
KirinDave
Wow! Plot this and visually analyze this. Flip out.

Even discarding the most intense outliers, there's essentially no logic to
comp in these numbers.

People keep telling me they don't want to unionize. But you look at data like
this and go, "Wow, what the hell is even going on."

------
dessant
It may be interesting to also list age, besides gender and race.

------
eddd
Make over 100k, spent most of it on housing.

------
buttholesurfer
Hahah, line 139...

------
throwaway2016a
If this spreadsheet shows me one thing it is that people need education on
stock options. Several people put their number of stock options in the
additional compensation field... which as many of you know is an absolute
meaningless number.

------
RodericDay
Pardon my ignorance of the google ecosystem but... how can I download this
spreadsheet?

~~~
komali2
File -> Download As -> {{whatever you want to download as}}

~~~
RodericDay
I don't have a menu at all. Other comment worked though, thanks!

------
Cheyana
Will we see one for female employees? Or would that be too expensive to
compile?

~~~
codeisart
Well. As a former Google female employee, I've learned that with 4 years
Google experience and 10 years industry experience, I was making as much total
comp as a person with about 1.5 years industry experience.

