
Studies find evidence that meditation is demotivating - gerbilly
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/opinion/sunday/meditation-productivity-work-mindfulness.html
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TipVFL
The title is total clickbait.

From the article: "Then we tracked everyone’s actual performance on the tasks.
Here we found that on average, having meditated neither benefited nor
detracted from a participant’s quality of work."

They found that people who meditated were more calm and serene, reported less
motivation, but performed similarly to people who had done non-meditative
activities.

It seems to me that having a calm, relaxed workforce who performs just as well
as your normal stressed workers is a pretty big positive. I'd find the study
more interesting if it studied the long term effects, like do the two groups
tend to diverge in productivity over time? Does it prevent burn out? Increase
job satisfaction?

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skywhopper
Not only that, but the tasks these people were assigned are not good models
for work tasks. In a real professional workplace, the tasks are usually
related to systems or processes over which the individuals feel ownership.
Random tasks about which they know nothing are convenient for a study, but not
a good model of actual work.

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darkerside
Perhaps the meditators were better able to recognize their actual lack of
giving a fuck

~~~
antonvs
That's a really good point. People work hard to try to justify to themselves
why they're doing what they're doing, and that's exactly the kind of bs that
meditation helps you reconsider and cut through.

~~~
arthurcolle
No wonder the #1 question on Google Trends is "What am I doing with my life?"

~~~
manicdee
Spoiler: that has been the number one question asked by sentients since
sentience was a thing.

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linuxhansl
My sample set is small, but I remain dubious about this study.

Accomplished meditators are very rarely couch potatoes; they tackle things
that need to tackled with calm, wisdom, and efficiency.

True, motivations like "I don't want to yelled at.", or "I want more money.",
or "I want to look good and smart to everybody." will go away or at least have
less impact. But they are replaced by "How can I make this happier place?", or
"What's the right thing to do for the company?", or "How can I take my ego out
of this and do what's right?", along with better behaviour under stress and
time constraints "When you're in a hurry go more slowly...", etc.

Also what kind of meditation are we referring to? Sitting and just breathing
can also just be a relaxation exercise... not meditation. Those effects more
or less just vanish when you come out of the sitting. Once some basic insights
are there, the relationship to work changes and becomes more relaxed and
practical and ... more effective.

As I said my sample set is small.

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thewhitetulip
Although tour sample size is small, you are making the right conclusion out of
it.

If you don't meditate then you are trapped in the cycle of wanting
confirmation and approval from others.

After meditation you realise that it doesn't matter one bit what others think
or say about you.

Inner peace is all that matters.

~~~
jm__87
I would argue that you should care what other people think about you if you're
inclined towards selfish behavior or treating others poorly. Caring what
others think would stop you from engaging in behavior that would result in you
alienating yourself. Of course meditation should help you become more
prosocial as well, but I don't think removing the need for
confirmation/approval of others is going to help everyone.

~~~
thewhitetulip
You are absolutely right. But I am not a snob, I am a socially awkward nerd so
it did good to me when I begun ignoring how people judged me for

1\. Reading books: wtf do you do? Read books? Why??? Don't you have a life?
2\. You code in your free time? Wtf is wrong with you? 3\. Why don't you dance
with us? It is fun, you should.

Etx

~~~
jm__87
Oh, wow. I can't imagine being judged negatively for reading books. I read a
lot and almost everyone I tell this to tells me they are impressed and wishes
they read more themselves. Never apologize for reading, that just sounds crazy
to me.

~~~
thewhitetulip
I'm in India, ppl judge you for everything unless you do things they like.

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maxxxxx
My theory is that (correct) meditation makes people more aware of what's good
for them and what isn't. One result of this could be that they realize that
most of their goals in a company are BS so they lose motivation.

I know a lot of Buddhists including monks and they certainly are very active
and motivated people. They are just a little pickier about what they put their
energy into.

~~~
alfredallan1
What it does, among other things, is stop the meditator from running around
like a headless chicken, chasing notifications and like counts, gasping at
every clickbait-ey title, and pursing meaningless trivia, in addition to
making 3 impulse purchases on Amazon everyday. So yeah, depending on the
definition of motivation, meditation can be highly demotivating.

But by that same definition of motivation, most focussed people, and most
people who’ve found success in their particular area, regardless of meditator-
status, can be considered highly demotivated.

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westoncb
> And the very notion of motivation — striving to obtain a more desirable
> future — implies some degree of discontentment with the present, which seems
> at odds with a psychological exercise that instills equanimity and a sense
> of calm.

'at odds with' is sort of a funny way of putting it: the realization that
'striving to obtain a more desirable future' often ends up being a trap is
part of the very foundation of meditation, and explicitly so.

The other aspect of what's being said here is sort of a subtle problem, and
one of the things that freaks people out about getting too into meditation: if
I'm totally content, I would have no motivation to do anything then, right? In
practice however, that's not the case. 'Motivation' in this sense is about
making yourself do something you don't want to do. For instance, someone
highly motivated to succeed at work might put in super long hours and make
sacrifices in other aspects of their life in order to get ahead. If you were
more content with where you were, it's true you probably wouldn't do that—but
instead you might start writing a novel or building a house or doing charity
work or whatever. It doesn't mean you're going to be lazy (in fact, meditation
can be quite energizing; often times after finishing a restful session I pop
up and effortlessly start cleaning and taking care of whatever needs to be
done), just that you won't feel _pressure_ to change your situation.

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thisisit
I haven't read the article so this is more off the cuff.

I read Emotional Intelligence by Goleman couple of months ago. And one of the
bigger takeaways for me was that "meditation" or calmness was not an answer
for everything. While meditation works on anger, stress (which are heightened
emotions) etc it is not a good option when you are feeling sad/down. The
better option will be to go out, have fun and get your emotional state up a
bit.

So, IMO is meditation pill for everything? No but if you are stressed it is
the best thing you can do.

~~~
thewhitetulip
Exactly. If you are sad and you meditate you might feel super depressed as
you'd want to give up everything in lofe wondering "what's the point in all
this?"

Meditation is for getting a calm mind and not being bothered by stupid things
like countless notifications etc it doesn't make us superman or batman

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stupidcar
This experimental design is... weird. The participants were assigned tasks
that "were similar to everyday workplace jobs", and asked about their
concomitant motivation level to complete them. But why would they either group
have any intrinsic motivation to do a purposeless simulation of busywork,
except because it was part of the study?

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hprotagonist
_But now I knew contemplation at its height. At its height, but not yet in its
fullness. For in its fullness the way of Mary includes the way of Martha and
raises it, so to speak, to its own higher power. Mescalin opens up the way of
Mary, but shuts the door on that of Martha. It gives access to contemplation
---but to a contemplation that is incompatible with action and even with the
will to action, the very thought of action. In the intervals between his
revelations the mescalin taker is apt to feel that, though in one way
everything is supremely as it should be, in another there is something wrong.
His problem is essentially the same as that which confronts the quietist, the
arhat and, on another level, the landscape painter and the painter of human
still lives. Mescalin can never solve that problem; it can only pose it,
apocalyptically, for those to whom it had never before presented itself. The
full and final solution can be found only by those who are prepared to
implement the right kind of Welranschauung by means of the right kind of
behavior and the right kind of constant and unstrained alertness. Over against
the quietist stands the active-contemplative, the saint, the man who, in
Eckhart 's phrase, is ready to come down from the seventh heaven in order to
bring a cup of water to his sick brother._

Aldous Huxley, "the doors of perception"

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121watts
I have found that meditation is demotivating -- in behhaviors and activities
that don't serve me.

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Tomminn
Ignoring the quality of the article and cited study, I did massively cut down
my meditation routine for exactly this reason.

Essentially, through meditation I learnt how to release "knots in my brain".
This was exceedingly pleasant to an extent I cannot emphasize enough.

But then I realized that these knots in my brain were often associated with
_things I wanted to figure out_.

I used to release them _by figuring something out_. But when I knew how to
release them a whole lot quicker without having to ever bother with the
difficulty of figuring something out, naturally I figured stuff out a whole
lot less.

That made me sad. So I decided that particular meditation skill was one I
wanted to unlearn.

~~~
wool_gather
Recently started meditating daily, and I was worried about exactly this
towards the beginning. I work with my mind, I like _using_ my mind to solve
problems. The guidance I was getting for the sessions was of this "let
thoughts come and go, just observe, be neutral" variety. While I see the
value, and I've enjoyed the overall effects, it seemed to be pointing away
from _thinking_ as a thing to do. How can you do something like brainstorming
if you're just letting thoughts pass, not following up with them?

Later, there have been some hints about a more "concentrating" style of
exercise. I.e. rather than just focusing on the breath, body, outside sounds,
whatever, actually spending the session with an _idea_ as the starting point
of the focus. Then staying on track with it, exploring just that one thing.

I've tried this once or twice now, unprompted, and I'm eager to learn more
about it. I haven't reached any conclusions, but the meditative state of mind
seems to be good for this. Brainstorming is more effective if you're in a less
distraction-prone mode.

I don't know if this matches up with your experience, but it might be worth
trying to use a session to, so to speak, _untie_ a knot, rather than just
letting it go.

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thewhitetulip
I think I'm a good canditate to share my experience here.

Just a few years ago I used to be grumpy, fought with my best friend over
trivial issues and used to be depressed.

Then I re-discovered meditation and I was calm. I do ot regularly and you
won't believe how peaceful I am. If I don't meditate then I become restless (I
am a workoholic who has just finished writing my fourth novel, in six months
time and now working on fifth one).

Meditation isn't to make you a Superman at your job. It is to make you be at
peace, if you attain inner peace then it is worth it.

I also discovered that the breathing exercises in Yoga help a lot.

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zupatol
> the very notion of motivation — striving to obtain a more desirable future —
> implies some degree of discontentment with the present

Surely there must be a study somewhere that shows how the right kind of misery
makes employees more productive.

~~~
antonvs
Do your employees seem satisfied and happy? Big red flag! That means they're
not working to their full potential.

Don't leave money on the table! Give us a call at Controlled Misery Inc., and
we can help you access the increased productivity that comes only from
optimizing your employees' misery levels.

~~~
alfredallan1
Bright new startup idea: Meditation as a Service. MaaS.

A solid alternative, for the modern non-believer, to the more traditional Mass
services.

Mission statement: Beware the risks of over-meditating! We aim to offer the
(scientifically detemined) precise amount of medidation, customized to each
individual, on a weekly basis to ensure optimal motivation and productivity
levels among staff.

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maxander
I don't have time at the moment to read the article in detail, but it sounds
like the experiment tested non-meditators on work tasks immediately following
a meditation session. I don't believe that this has much bearing on the
_overall_ levels of motivation on someone who does or does not meditate _in
general_ ; it's easy to imagine that right after a relaxing mindfulness
session people would be a bit sleepy and less inclined to carry out
experimental makework tasks dutifully, but the meaningful benefits of
meditation would presumably last much longer than such drowsiness.

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mickronome
I have ADD, and at least one form of meditation clearly helps me makes choices
better for me when I do it regularly. Many people are clearly motivated in a
way that is detrimental to them, and if it helps them in a similar way, they
might very well become less motivated by seeing their situation more clearly.
Work is a necessity, an abstracted exchange of labour.

But if the same holds for people without ADD and the most common meditation
methods. Work output and quality is still going to be higher, although your
employees might not appear as enthusiastic as before.

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martinthenext
Experiments report loss of motivation to do toy tasks. I can imagine people
losing motivation to do those, or participate in the study, after meditating.
Not sure how that translates to lack of motivation in doing what you actually
like/want to be doing.

The nap analogy from the article, I find, is very good. After taking a nap, it
might be easier for you to concentrate and do deep work. If you need to do
something tedious instead, like respond to admin emails or perform made up
tasks for a meditation study, you might perform better pumping some loud music
or being under social pressure.

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superobserver
Clearly not accurate. For one thing, there are many kinds of meditation, so
the assessment that meditation (as a whole) is demotivating is
overgeneralizing. Secondly, as further revealed by the study itself,
motivation isn't a factor for successful task completion, so there may be
something about self-attributed motivation that is superfluous to task
completion (i.e., meditators become disabused of that and merely handle the
task at hand).

