
How Game Apps That Captivate Kids Have Been Collecting Their Data - johnny313
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/09/12/technology/kids-apps-data-privacy-google-twitter.html
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patja
I teach coding and robotics to kids age 10 - 14. I'm constantly having to tell
them to fill in the birthdate field accurately when signing up for things like
Scratch or TinkerCAD because I know it triggers a different account creation
path that complies with COPPA.

After half the class says "but my parents tell me to just lie about my age so
I can use free stuff online" I end up having to have a whole conversation with
the class about COPPA, and more to the point, the question "Is it OK to
misrepresent yourself to someone else in order to get them to give you
something they otherwise would not" and the slippery slope of little white
lies, and when is it OK to lie. It's a good conversation but always eye
opening to see what is taught at home. Of course many of these 10 - 12 year
olds are also playing GTA V and other MA games with their parents' permission.

~~~
lovich
Why would you teach children to help companies harvest their data by
accurately filling in forms for them?

If they we're all just innocent checks to see if they should be offered a
product or not I could see your argument. Companies however, have weaponized
personal data and once given away it can't come back. They should be adding
noise to any data they have to give up just to help mask themselves in the
digital world.

~~~
DanBC
COPPA means companies are severely limited to the information they can gather
on children.

When a child fills out a form with a fake, older, age it increasesthe amount
of data that canbe collected about that child.

~~~
lovich
Even if you believed that companies were following the law, which I do not,
then you still have to contend with the fact that most software shops are run
in such a slipshod manner that you virtually garunteed to have your data
stolen when that company is hacked

~~~
JeremyNT
It would seem that the optimal solution is to lie about your age, while still
using an age low enough to trigger those legal protections. The best of both
worlds...

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sverige
The first generation to have nearly every moment of their lives tracked has
already been born. That is frightening.

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JustSomeNobody
I would love to hear from the engineers why they work for companies that track
and addict kids.

~~~
throw2016
User data is a business model that a significant portion of tech workers are
now vested in, this constant stream of conversation and hand waving among
insiders who are designing and implementing these systems without protest,
dissent or advocating any course of corrective action has normalized it, like
state and private surveillance.

Now it just serves as signalling to outsiders by those vested in the system to
pretend they are not responsible and somehow equally shocked. That also
explains why inspite of so much 'hand wringing' and 'concern' Google, Facebook
and others continue to enjoy respectability in tech circles with no shortage
of people eager to work for them.

But here is the problem, we expect even the poor and desperate to behave
ethically, for highly educated privileged individuals to behave unethically
means there is now no basis for expecting any ethical behavior from others in
society and you create the conditions for your children and others to live in
damaging environments.

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lsmarigo
> “The F.T.C. has made enforcement of the Children’s Online Privacy Protection
> Act a high priority,” said Juliana Gruenwald, an agency spokeswoman.

> “These sophisticated tech companies are not policing themselves,” the New
> Mexico attorney general, Hector Balderas, said. “The children of this
> country ultimately pay the price.”

> “This is as much a black eye on the federal government as the tech space,”
> Mr. Balderas said. “I’m trying to get lawmakers at the federal level to wake
> up.”

This is like going after drug dealers for parking violations and calling a
press conference to proudly brag about it. Game publishers are doing much
worse stuff and you're making a big deal about going after them for tracking!?

To not even mention in passing loot boxes, really NYT? one of the most
pervasive unethical rackets in modern tech targeting children, much worse than
tracking because it causes real harm to individuals.

FTC: Feel free to exploit young underdeveloped brains to addict them to
gambling for profit as long as you're not tracking them.

~~~
creep
> Feel free to exploit young underdeveloped brains to addict them to gambling
> for profit

Games are designed to keep you interested and engaged-- that's just what a
game is. Children's games have included gambling since toys have existed
(dreidel, jacks, marbles, to name a few). Children learn about the real world
through play, and gambling is a part of that. Risks give benefits or
consequences that are often unpredictable. I don't see the explicit benefit of
excluding these gambles from children's games.

~~~
lsmarigo
> Games are designed to keep you interested and engaged-- that's just what a
> game is. Children's games have included gambling since toys have existed
> (dreidel, jacks, marbles, to name a few).

You're not wrong, can also point to baseball cards, magic the gathering or
pokemon cards. The key differences today are

1) Instant-availability of the secondary market and third party sites that
allow you to gamble with virtual currency you've won.

2) Devs/Publishers hiring psychologists and cognitive behavior specialists to
design these loot box experiences to release the perfect amount of dopamine to
get users addicted, with frightening efficiency. In comparison your examples
are extremely mild.

You could say it's the parents responsibility to educate and protect their
children from these practices - but would you say the same about the tobacco
industry advertising to children? For me this is the same addiction from
profit motive the tobacco industry exploited for many years until they were
rightfully regulated.

~~~
kown223
there "Instant-availability of the secondary market" you're just talking
bullshit, there is no such thing, as per your second point so what? do you
think pokemon cards people didn't hired "specialists" either? What are those
design choices to make them addicted, is a box it opens and that's it. This
kind of post is what I hate about NY, people thinking they are so smart, while
having quite a narrow/naive/first world view.

~~~
lsmarigo
> there "Instant-availability of the secondary market" you're just talking
> bullshit

[https://steamcommunity.com/market/search?appid=730](https://steamcommunity.com/market/search?appid=730)

[https://steamcommunity.com/market/search?appid=578080](https://steamcommunity.com/market/search?appid=578080)

[https://gamdom.com/](https://gamdom.com/)

[https://csgoempire.com/](https://csgoempire.com/)

[https://csgoroll.com/](https://csgoroll.com/)

[https://csgodose.com/](https://csgodose.com/)

[https://csbets.org/](https://csbets.org/)

[https://flashyflashy.com/](https://flashyflashy.com/)

[https://csgospeed.com/](https://csgospeed.com/)

First page results from a quick google search, who's talking bullshit

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mothers
Nothing will come out of this. If people think it's OK to track adults it'll
be OK to track kids.

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leowoo91
Does anyone know if using popular advertisement networks require submission of
personal data?

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gesman
We need GDPR in USA.

Without this - nothing will change. Benefits of abusing children and stealing
user's private information to resell to advertisers far outweigh the
penalties.

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briandear
It’s already against the law to “abuse” children.

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gesman
In this context it is stealing children's personal information - and doing so
against their will and/or permission.

Not a physical abuse but comes as close second.

~~~
LanceH
No it isn't, and no it doesn't come close.

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fenwick67
Gosh, I'm just shocked that the data-driven advertising model isn't respectful
to users! /s

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normjxjxh
Idk, I mean, it was intended to be illegal(for kids) so I am a little shocked

~~~
presscast
I'm shocked, but not surprised.

