
Farewell Kagi - nicky0
http://www.kagi.com
======
stevoski
Kagi was 22 years in business and they write this:

> We are sorry we failed you.

Kagi, you did not fail. You provide an essential service for what was then
called Shareware when it was really hard to do online payment processing.

~~~
feelix
I think perhaps that getting defrauded so much money that it sent them
bankrupt must feel a bit like failure to them

------
veidr
As I posted on the other, stillborn, HN thread[1] about this:

I had been selling through these guys continuously for the past 19 years. Back
when I set Kagi up to handle sales of my apps for Newton OS (1997), they were
one of only a few companies offering that kind of thing, and were a familiar
name to anybody who bought shareware back then.

But, for me, well, I guess the Newton OS gravy train[2] is finally over! :-/

It's interesting to me that I set up that store in 1997, and it ran untouched
for years after that, generating a decreasing modicum of sales, every year,
until today.

[1]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12200601](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12200601)
[2]: [http://www.fivespeedsoftware.com](http://www.fivespeedsoftware.com)

~~~
stryk
Wow, people were still actively using Newtons? AND spending money in it's
ecosystem? Well, will wonders never cease. That's incredible. I guess some
folks stick with the things they like when they find them. More power to them!

~~~
jandrese
> AND spending money in it's ecosystem?

Well, it is an Apple product.

------
funkaster
This is very sad... When I was 16 ('97), I sold my first Mac shareware tools
and games through them. I still remember my dad asking me why someone was
sending me checks in US dollars (I'm from Chile). His face got only weirder
when I told him: "internet stuff, dad... I'm selling stuff through internet".

------
binarymax
For those who didn't know about Kagi, from an archived version of their site:

 _Welcome to Kagi. We provide the technology that makes it easy for you to
open and operate your online store, so you have time to focus on managing your
business. We offer a complete range of store solutions, including order pages,
shopping carts and payment processing—all tailored to fit your needs. We give
you the keys that unlock your online store 's potential._

------
patio11
That's too bad.

Kagi is not a name that comes up very often anymore, but they were a shareware
payments processor. Back in the day, (90s!), charging credit cards was
_exceedingly_ difficult for small software businesses, so they essentially
rented out a merchant account and (optionally) working shopping cart in
exchange for 10%~15% of the transaction price.

There used to be many of these smaller payment processors. Most of the ones in
the software space joined Digital River or went under.

------
sujal
Does anyone know what the fraud incident was that they reference? I couldn't
find anything on Google and don't remember any news, either...

~~~
robk
From about 10+ years ago it seems something to do with Outpost.com?
[http://forums.macnn.com/79/developer-
center/268919/unofficia...](http://forums.macnn.com/79/developer-
center/268919/unofficial-kagi-fraud-alert/)
[https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zPU6DcS9MN0C&pg=PA22&lpg...](https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zPU6DcS9MN0C&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=outpost.com+fraud&source=bl&ots=J7tXufKJGF&sig=q4lGD8_FkXcwHQLj28aJUgfCUl8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJ48HKnKDOAhWsI8AKHdkbArcQ6AEIMzAE)

------
dcsoft
I am a current Kagi supplier, and this unexpected closure has me in a bad
place. It took a few days to code my system to interface with theirs and to
generate licenses automatically for each purchase. I suppose I need to redo
all that.

I appreciate Kagi for their years of friendly and comprehensive service as
well as the next person, but why didn't Kee Nethery support us better during
the closure? No migration path to or even recommendation of a replacement.
Where are others moving their payment processor to?

And it sounds like we may not get fully paid either.

~~~
stevoski
If you don't mind do a bit of coding:

    
    
      * Stripe
      * PayPal. (You want the "Express Checkout" workflow)
    

(Hint: for increased sales offer both. Stripe is a developer's dream; adding
PayPal adds perhaps 30% more sales, although YMMV)

If you want someone else to take care of all the details in return for higher
commission:

    
    
      * FastSpring (full service, heavyweight)
      * Paddle (streamlined, focused towards Mac and towards digital products such as ebooks)
      * Gumroad (focused on info products)
      * SendOwl (you still need your own Stripe and/or PayPal, but you don't need to do the coding. They give you a polished, modern feature-rich UI on top of your payment processor.)

~~~
Nullabillity
> Stripe is a developer's dream

Unless you're using the JVM. Their Java API is so awful that it feels like
you're just shelling out to cURL.

~~~
brandur
(I'm a developer at Stripe who helps maintain our language bindings.)

+1. The original system was designed to be as flexible as possible and had the
advantage of being able to support many different integrations that were
straddling many different versions of the Stripe API, and all from within a
single version of the Java library.

Its major downside of course is that the same flexibility somewhat compromises
the developer experience, and the choice hasn't mapped well onto languages
like Java where the expectation is that most functionality should be
discoverable by the type system.

If it's any consolation, we're certainly aware of the problem and have a rough
plan/roadmap on how to address some of the more appalling blemishes in
usability.

~~~
stevoski
I used Stripe's Java API for my website. I wouldn't say it was awful - it got
the job done, and exception handling was well thought out. But it wasn't
idiomatic Java. It felt like it had been put together by someone who knew a
language other than Java really well.

------
buserror
I extracted quite a sizable part of my income from Kagi shareware payments
over the 90's and early 00's. Sad to see them go. I'm sure the nice people who
worked there will become nice people working at any other places...

They were absolutely amazing to have in the days before the Paypals and
international credit cards!

------
marktroika
I can only echo all the sentiments echoed here – thank you for those
reflections.

Kagi allowed me to get started as a developer, and my company has grown a lot
since that fateful day in 2002 when I sold the first copy of my software
Isadora. In all those years, they were never late with a payment until this
month... a payment I suspect will never come now. (Or for which I will be
offered pennies on the dollar. Guess we'll have to see.)

Customer support was pretty great; you always got a person who knew what was
actually going on and who was super friendly and chill.

Well, farewell. One of those "end of an era" kind of things.

\-- Mark

------
taylormade
I'm devastated. Not for KAGI but for the fact that they went dark and took
$3,100 of my money with them. No warning, no attempts to take care of someone
who has been a faithful partner for 6 years. Don't count on getting any of
yours back if they owe you. Here's an email from Kee Nethery, the CEO to me
today.: ____________________________________________________________ All
payments are halted.

We have not yet signed the documents with the firm. When we do, I’ll make sure
everyone knows who they are and how to contact them.

We have maybe 6 months of deposits with the credit card companies. It will
take time to get that back. Right now, your safe assumption would be that the
money is not going to get paid out. Hopefully that is not true but until
everything is finalized, that is the safe assumption.

Very sorry it ended this way.

Kee \------------------------------------------------ so good luck and so much
for my $ 3,100

------
arikfr
I wonder if they could sell their domain name to cover some of their debt... 4
letter .com domains are hard to come by.

~~~
FoeNyx
And that name could certainly be of some interest for people in the security
or cryptography fields (kagi meaning key in Japanese)

~~~
SyneRyder
Indeed, the original Kagi logo played on this - if you looked at their logo
upside down, it spelled Key.

[http://www.naratt.com/Pictures/KagiLogo.gif](http://www.naratt.com/Pictures/KagiLogo.gif)

~~~
initram
And "Kee" was the owner's first name, as well!

------
marktroika
Oh and P.S.: I've been in contact with a number of developers who used Kagi
and have created both an open and closed group where we can discuss the
situation and share news and commiserate. (The closed group is simply to allow
us to talk privately if we feel the need.) Here's a link to the open group.
[https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/kagi-closure-
informa...](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/kagi-closure-information-
sharing)

------
kkyryl
(full disclosure – I work at FastSpring as a Product Manager)

Really sorry to see Kagi go. I think they had their reasons to close overnight
and I really hope everyone will get the payout in full. End of an era..

Thanks everyone who mentioned FastSpring as a possible alternative – we are
indeed way closer to Kagi than Stripe. We are (and Kagi were) what is called
an MOR (Merchant On Record) and that's why we collect all the taxes, handle
compliance, multiple payment methods and everything else that makes platforms
"convenient" for a smaller business and "hands off" approach to all those
issues. Stripe is (without deeper explanation) a payment processor (which
means you are responsible for taxes/fraud) and their rules are stricter.

With that said, if you are not afraid of development work and
tax/fraud/compliance issues don't bother you Stripe would be the best/most
customizable/integrate-able option (with the exception of their Java API as we
learned above :)

If you would still like "hands off" approach and let someone handle your
taxes, compliance, payment methods etc I would recommend going with
FastSpring. As it was mentioned, we are very supplier-friendly and will help
you get up and running. We also have new cool APIs/Webhooks so give us a go if
you are looking for a replacement.

------
aerhakr
I worked at Kagi around 2006, and it was a very odd operation. They still were
using Mac quadras for business logic and Win NT4.0 for many servers. They were
struggling hard then too.

------
initram
I too used them to get my first business off the ground. I sold through them
for over 5 years and always had good experiences. I met Kee and some of the
staff at MacWorld 12-15 years ago and they seemed very nice. I'm sad to see
them go, especially like this. They made something that would have been
impossible easy at the time.

------
ralmar
(full disclosure – I'm part of the Avangate team) Felt nostalgic about your
stories, and how Kagi was a true pillar in your growth in the times of
shareware / on premise licenses, we’re very sorry to see Kagi close its doors.
While those were the days, some of their competitors transitioned to newer
models and are thriving with their capabilities as more than payment providers
with APIs for SaaS, online services and software on premise with renewals just
like their clients. Hopefully everything will work out in the end with your
remaining payouts. Not to sound like an opportunist, but I'd like to mention
what I believe is a fit alternative to all those that need some help while
looking for a replacement.

If you sell software, SaaS or any other digital goods, Avangate is a full
service provider, solving the complexity of online commerce, subscription
billing, distribution channels and global payments. Avangate is also the
merchant of record, eliminating all issues related to local sales taxation,
regulations, currency exchange and other account services. But don't take my
word for it, hear what the customers have to say
[http://www.avangate.com/customers/](http://www.avangate.com/customers/) and
also check out reviews on G2Crowd
[https://www.g2crowd.com/products/avangate/reviews](https://www.g2crowd.com/products/avangate/reviews)

Good luck!

------
dblock
I started using Kagi in 1996 for Vestris.com. I was too young to incorporate
in Switzerland, so I bought a BVI offshore. Kagi was the payment processor,
helping me sell my shareware and sending a check, reliably. You were awesome!
I would go to a bank in Geneva to get cash. Sad to see it go, but shareware is
no more.

------
femto113
Sad to see. A friend and I developed a niche Mac pro-audio software tool in
2002 and Kagi was pretty much the only turnkey payment solution available.
Primitive by modern (post-Stripe) era standards but we processed a few
thousand dollars a month through them for several years without issue.

------
egl2015
Really sorry to read this. Nethery did some work for me decades ago---an
AppleTalk stack, if memory serves.

------
kagi_bankruptcy
This is the email I just sent to the Kagi CEO, who disappeared with our cash:

Dear Kee,

Thanks for your message. However, Kagi should have informed customers in
advance that they were ceasing operations, allowing them to collect their
money and close their account. As I understand it, Kagi informs us that it has
disappeared with our money, and that an unspecified somebody writing from a
“do not reply” email will tell us more about it. Fraudulent bankruptcy would
then only be the beginning of a long legal process. I seriously hope you will
at least refund the account balance of the Kagi customers and avoid legal and
penal consequences.

Kind regards,

Fabio

~~~
benacler
Hi Fabio,

Are you from Italy? I had the same experience and I'm out about $17000 from
those guys that never missed a wire in the past. This really pissed me off
because this shit has been handled very badly. Our payments are "our money"
and should not be considered a Kagi asset but I think they are handling it in
the "bad way". If you're from italy drop me a line to benacler at vvertex.com
, I'm a little stuck on what to do , maybe an international cause will cost me
more than what I've to get back :/

------
Millennium
[https://web.archive.org/web/20160801094831/http://www.kagi.c...](https://web.archive.org/web/20160801094831/http://www.kagi.com/)

Site seems to be dead already. This seems awfully fast, given that they only
ceased operations yesterday and still have a couple of things left to do, so
the site might come back up for a bit. But here's a link to a snapshot just in
case.

~~~
Millennium
...and they're back. That was odd.

------
stpe
I still have some old Windows shareware games from the 90'ies that as late as
just a few weeks ago generated a sale through Kagi (even if there has been no
updates to the games for more than 10 years!).

So even if I'm not financially dependent on Kagi, I still have the account
since then and this shutdown really came out of nowhere. Very little
communication received from their part.

------
BSci
I had been using Kagi for over a decade. Failures happen but what is annoying
is that there was no warning - just an email. I've lost $3000+ but what is
vexing is that they took orders on Friday the 29th July when they must have
known that they were going bust - is this not fraud?

------
gkanai
The domain could be quite valuable not only because of the 4-letter length but
also because it's an old domain with lots of links all over the 1.0 web.

------
john7653
Hi

I have received email of monthly payment of June but I haven't received the
payment yet. So 2 months payments are not received?

------
chirau
Very sad to hear this. Out of curiosity, is the domain name up for sale?

------
benacler
also who of you has the CEO mail ? Seems there's no way to contact them
anymore...

------
erikb
What did they do? Never heard of them.

Edit: Ah, they were like an old-school Amazon?

webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:GSePr0KJAvoJ:krm.kagi.com/about/

Edit: Why is this post downvoted? There is nothing discriminating here, not
even an opinion. Just someone asking what Kagi is. Instead of downvoting you
should simply answer the question.

~~~
Kadin
Kagi was a payments processor / fulfillment service provider focused
particularly on shareware. Back in the days before app stores, if you were an
indie developer your options for distribution and monetization were very
limited. Generally you put out a demo version that took some sort of code to
unlock, and users sent you money via the mail in return for unlock codes. This
is how many software authors got their start in the 80s.

In the 90s, it began to become clear that accepting credit cards and providing
the unlock codes online was the way to go, but for most developers actually
doing that was out of reach. Not just for technical reasons, but the fees on
having a CC merchant account on a low-cost, low-volume app were just not
feasible. Kagi filled this niche. They would do the actual sales, in return
for a cut, and provide the unlock codes to customers. You as the developer
still handled all support. It was by far one of the easiest ways for a small
developer to sell their software online.

I am guessing, although I don't know for sure, that they also provided some
sort of libraries or implementation assistance for the 'unlocking' features
inside the software itself, because many Kagi-sold apps had very similar-
looking unlock codes.

Exactly what happened with the "vendor fraud situation" I don't know, but it's
sad to see them go under so suddenly. They provided a valuable service for
many years and there are a lot of apps that would probably never have been
developed were it not for the sales channel they provided.

~~~
rbritton
It was also very Mac-centric, I believe, so that may have limited the
knowledge of who they are to smaller circles.

