
To solve problems caused by sitting, learn to squat (2017) - pr0zac
https://qz.com/quartzy/1121077/to-solve-problems-caused-by-sitting-learn-to-squat/
======
scarmig
For people who want to improve their bodyweight squat:

1) Heels should be firmly planted on the ground. This can seem impossible:
many people will feel like they can't even get to parallel, let alone ass to
ground. My favored solution to this is adding elevation to the heels. A plank
or two can add an inch or more to heel height. This gives your foot the
support it needs in a squat and helps form good habits. When you rise from the
squat, most of the force should be being applied through the heel. Over time
you will decrease the heel elevation.

2) Body weight distribution can add to the difficulty of it if you're "back
heavy." For my body fat distribution, losing weight enabled me to balance over
my heels, while before I would fall backwards.

3) Practice every day, even if it's just a set or two of squats.

4) Hip flexion and ankle dorsiflexion are the key components to a squat. I
find the former easier to improve than the latter. The supplementary exercises
I've found most useful are Cossack squats, horse stance, and training my
pancake split. For the pancake, you want all the folding to come from the hips
and not from the lower or upper back. This transfers well to working on
squats, because folding from the hips instead of the back brings your center
of mass forward more effectively.

~~~
Thriptic
To add to this, there are a slate of classic mistakes noobs make while
squatting that impact depth and cause pain:

1\. Your feet should not be pointing straight ahead while squatting,
regardless of stance width. This is by far and away the biggest noob mistake.
Most people never hit depth / develop knee pain because they squat with their
feet straight forward. You should set up with your feet rotated ~30 degrees
outwards from parallel (ie your feet should be forming a V with the vertex
behind you).

2\. When you are squatting down, you should project your knees in the
direction that your feet are pointing. Your knees should be out over your feet
at all times. Your knees should not go straight forward.

3\. Squat (and really all other powerlifting movements) are full body
exercises. Your core should be tight; your back should be tight; etc

4\. Don't squat in running shoes. If you must squat in running shoes, use a
board as the OP stated. Running shoes tend to have a very squishy sole which
is great for running but not so great when you are trying to establish a
stable base to balance on and push off of. Try to squat in shoes with a hard
sole.

~~~
korethr
This sounds consistent with the advice from my trainer when I was going to the
gym. One thing you don't mention is knee position relative to your toes. I was
admonished that the knees should never be allowed to go forward of the toes --
they will get excessively loaded if they do. Is that true in your experience?

~~~
Thriptic
That is true, but knee position relative to toes is more of a diagnostic for
other form issues rather than something to try to optimize for in it's own
right if that makes sense. If you are breaking at the hips (ie pushing your
butt backwards to initiate the movement as opposed to sitting straight down on
your ankles) and also breaking at the knees (ie pushing your knees apart to
start the movement) properly, then your knees will usually not go passed your
toes. If you find that your knees are going far passed your toes, you probably
aren't doing at least one of those things correctly. It also usually means
that the bar is not over your heels so you are moving it inefficiently.

It's similar to when people say "chest up" for squatting which actually has
nothing to do with your chest directly and is instead a diagnostic for if a
person's back and core are tight. If your back and core are tight then your
back won't round and therefore your chest will appear "up".

------
polishdude20
From the article:

">At best, we might undertake it during Crossfit, pilates or while lifting at
the gym, but only partially and often with weights (a repetitive maneuver
that’s hard to imagine being useful 2.5 million years ago).<"

A repetitive maneuver with weights is hard to imagine 2.5 million years ago?
So they're going to bash getting yourself strong and healthy because they
can't imagine anyone doing a repetitive maneuver 2.5 million years ago? Either
you're supporting that people should squat more or you don't. This article
wants you to squat but not in any way which will improve your strength and
chances of getting off the toilet when your 95.

~~~
adrianmonk
Maybe what they're referring to is the idea that doing a wide variety of
different motions can be really useful. This is why cross-training is
important for athletes who want to be their best and healthiest.

For example, if you're into running, this strengthens your legs, but it
focuses on certain specific muscles and neglects others. So you want to do
some other things like biking or ideally something with lateral movement like
playing soccer or tennis.

And it's not just strength and endurance to consider.

The body also needs to learn to do certain motions correctly, because part of
fitness is the habits your body has to activate certain muscles in certain
sequences. When you walk or run, it's important how your foot lands, and it's
important how your knees bend (so your muscles can absorb shock, not your
joints), etc. Movement is a skill to be learned that requires practice until
doing it properly becomes second nature, a lot like playing a musical
instrument.

And of course there's also flexibility.

Anyway, maybe their point is that merely doing strength training is better
than nothing, but it's not a substitute for including squatting into your
daily life so that you do 100 different variations of squats and squat-like
movements. For example, if you unloading the dishwasher by squatting down,
extending your arm and leaning over to grab some forks, and then twisting
around and standing up partially to put them in drawer to your other side,
you're going to trigger different muscles than if you do squats in the gym.

~~~
sn9
This comment is like the exercise equivalent of bikeshedding.

Someone who can squat twice their bodyweight is not going to have any problems
doing any of the things you mentioned.

The strength and mobility required to do so with good form will still be
available to you for more varied everyday movements which are generally
unweighted.

(And it'll definitely be more effective at building leg strength than any kind
of running. That's why high level sprinters all do strength training including
squats and cleans.)

------
gojomo
So, about 10 years ago, I'd seen a few articles on the prevalence of the
"squat-down-to-your-feet" stance in Asia, and the ease with which this stance
could be reached by those who'd been doing it their whole lives, and its
benefits as a low-energy sitting-position where chairs are unavailable & the
ground is unappealing. But, I could get nowhere close without extreme ankle-
knee-hip tightness & then, if I pushed, pain.

I thought, well, maybe I can gradually get that range-of-motion back for my
adult body, with occasional tries/stretching.

After a few weeks of trying squats for a couple minutes most days, I was
playing a typical game of basketball with friends, and landing from an
unremarkable jump for a rebound, when my knee ACL snapped.

Quite possibly a coincidence! But even now, long after the recovery from ACL-
replacement surgery, I can't muster any interest in trying those particular
exercises again. And I wonder if ACL injury rates vary based on
people/cultures where this stance is prevalent. (I could believe that actually
_achieving_ such squats involves longer ACLs, which might in the end be either
positive or negative for sports-related ACL tears.)

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
I think you may be overthinking it - basketball is to blame for your ACL
misfortune.

I can't find any details regarding the 3rd world squat, but here's an article
on ACL force during a regular squat:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11528346](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11528346)

My wife doesn't have an ACL in one of her knees, and has no difficulty with
any of those motions. The ACL is there to stop when something goes funky
(sudden sheer forces), not when it's running through it's usual range of
motion.

This article says that the forces on ACL are greatest when you're just
starting the squat movement, not at the end of the range of motion:

[https://squatuniversity.com/2016/01/22/debunking-squat-
myths...](https://squatuniversity.com/2016/01/22/debunking-squat-myths-are-
deep-squats-bad-for-the-knees/)

~~~
gojomo
I suspect there are some differences between the exercise deep-squat, and the
sit-squat where, at the end, you're essentially sitting on your heels, with
little-to-no ongoing exertion.

Obviously, a basketball action was the key and triggering event. But I'd been
playing similar basketball on similar concrete courts for 25 year before the
injury, and plenty since. My games aren't that intense. Yet that's the most
serious injury I've had. (Others were milder ankle & foot injuries.)

~~~
clairity
it's still probably due to basketball, where ACL tears are one of the most
common injuries (after ankle sprains of course). many tendon and ligaments
can't easily repair themselves (and where they can, it's slow), so the tears
accumulate over time.

the ACL is absolutely crucial (ha!) to stabilizing the knee (especially front-
back motion on the horizontal plane) and keeping it from falling apart
(hyperextending along the tibiofemoral axis).

(took a dissection class in grad school, where we cut an ACL to see how it
affects motion and stability.)

------
foreigner
Time for a squatting desk?

~~~
numtel
I've been using a self-built prototype floor-sitting desk for the last month.
I can sit cross-legged, on my heels, or with my legs to one side, as well as
squatting.

It's 2 shelves: one about a foot off the ground for the mouse and keyboard and
another a little more than a foot above the first for the laptop to sit on. I
look directly into the screen.

An improvement would be better adjustability and possibly taller supports so
that it could be used while standing as well.

Either way, I'm very happy with sitting on the floor. Now, when I sit in
chairs I notice misalignments arising quickly.

------
newnewpdro
Furniture in general is detrimental to people's general fitness. I'm convinced
its primary purpose is class signaling and generating unnecessary business for
the economy. Sells bigger homes and office spaces, you need to haul all this
junk around whenever you buy it or move it, and it needs to be manufactured
and bought in the first place.

If you think about what furniture actually does, it's pretty obvious. It
deprives you of an entire range of natural movements and postures a life
without furniture forces you to experience regularly.

I've lived without furniture or even a bed for over a decade, and am now
middle-aged, and the difference is very obvious when I socialize with folks
especially when we're playing board games on a floor or hanging around a
campfire.

My flexibility and comfort at squatting and sitting indian style or really any
position on the floor is equivalent to that of a child. Most american adults I
know can't comfortably sit indian style if they can even get into the position
at all, and often need help getting up from the floor or at least let out
quite a grunt in struggling to get back up.

In any given day I'm getting up and down from the floor dozens of times. Go do
some burpees and see how significant that can be vs. using a chair. I leap up
from the ground like it's nothing at all because it's the normal.

Another thing I've learned from one of those investigations of regions with
the most oldest living people is many of them have cultures without furniture,
where everyone uses the floor primarily and preserves the ability to squat and
get up from the floor independently into old age.

~~~
jolmg
I get your point, but "furniture in general" might be too broad. For example,
I can't see how bookshelves nor kitchen cabinets are detrimental. I think the
point of most furniture is to enable people to take better advantage of the
vertical space they have available.

Your comment makes a good point of chairs, beds, and other furniture you can
sit on, but I don't think it applies to all furniture in general.

~~~
newnewpdro
You're right, I tend to not include cabinets and bookshelves in my mental
model of furniture, just elevated objects people sit/rest on/at.

Though one can argue even those forms of furniture are problematic, using
vertical storage space more efficiently can encourage hoarding of unnecessary
junk. I'm certainly guilty of hoarding books I rarely touch, but it doesn't
seem as harmful to one's health/fitness.

~~~
magduf
Without furniture, how exactly do you propose that I use a computer
workstation with 3 large monitors? Sit it all on the floor? That sounds like
an ergonomics nightmare.

Some of the furniture we have now is because pre-technological humans simply
didn't do many things we do now.

~~~
jolmg
Yeah, saying no furniture kind of distracts from their point, which is that
not getting frequently up and down from the floor probably causes our loss to
easily do so as we get older.

As to being able to have a computer workstation that lets you work as you're
sitting on the floor, the japanese seem to have many options[1]. I imagine
newnewpdro is not against furniture like this. You can have good posture while
sitting on the floor, too.

[1]
[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=japanese+floor+computer+desk&t=ffa...](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=japanese+floor+computer+desk&t=ffab&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images)

------
ackbar03
I've actually mostly lost my ability to squat now which I kind of regret. A
lot of places, especially China despite its breakneck speed growth, still use
squat toilets. When you have an upset stomach from that breakfast stall you
last ate, it then becomes a matter of survival. Not being able to squat is a
weakness

~~~
michaelcampbell
> I've actually mostly lost my ability to squat now which I kind of regret.

How? In what manner?

~~~
boutad
The article said:

> “Every joint in our body has synovial fluid in it. This is the oil in our
> body that provides nutrition to the cartilage,” Jam says. “Two things are
> required to produce that fluid: movement and compression. So if a joint
> doesn’t go through its full range—if the hips and knees never go past 90
> degrees—the body says ‘I’m not being used’ and starts to degenerate and
> stops the production of synovial fluid.”

------
giardini
From the article:

" >These positions—which, in addition to a deep passive squat with the feet
flat on the floor, include sitting cross legged and _kneeling on one’s knees
and heels_ —are not just good for us, but “deeply embedded into the way our
bodies are built.<”

But several of my friends suffered heart attacks (embolism) after long periods
of kneeling to worship and/or to garden.

I conjecture that, contrary to the article, kneeling on one's knees is not
only not "good for us" but bad, as it may inhibit blood flow in the legs,
promoting the formation of clots which are later released upon standing and
moving around.

~~~
supercanuck
Maybe you should conduct a study into you garden/worship hypothetis and test
if it can be replicated.

[https://geriatrictoolkit.missouri.edu/srff/deBrito-Floor-
Ris...](https://geriatrictoolkit.missouri.edu/srff/deBrito-Floor-Rise-
Mortality-2012..pdf)

~~~
relativeadv
ability to sit and rise from floor does not mean you should focus on sitting
and rising from the floor in a regimented manner in hopes of a long capable
life. Grip strength is also correlated with a capable old age. Does that mean
you should start doing grip strengthening exercises? Not really. It's an
external indication of something else going on.

Too much of anything is bound to cause complications.

~~~
tartoran
Actually low squatting accidentally helped me with some back problems I had in
the past. Accidentally in this case is because I was just trying different
body positions that I don't normally use. My general rule of thumb is to gain
back lost mobility for a better health.

------
reassembled
Tangentially related...I know it may not be for everybody but I recently
started skateboarding at age 36 while looking for something to do during the
PG&E blackouts last fall and haven't stopped since.

It's definitely been a great way to get out and just explore around town while
also building up my leg and core muscles.

Because I've been wanting to improve as much as possible I've started doing
squats and calf raises as well and it has been helping a lot with my overall
control and balance on the board.

------
dang
Discussed at the time:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16471215](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16471215)

------
rasz
Want to do something for your fitness but full squats scare you? Start doing
quarter squats while brushing teeth, 2x couple minutes every day. Simple, easy
to do, doesnt steal time from other activities, and you will feel the
difference.

------
coldcode
I played basketball for almost 20 years and my knees can't handle this type of
position anymore. Also I am basically 2 meters tall so its a long way down and
up.

~~~
trcarney
B.S. I'm the same height and have no problem getting down to parallel. Unless
you have major structural issues with your knee, which you should be fixed
regardless, your knees can't handle the position because you don't get in the
position.

Get a pair of 7mm knee sleeves that are kind of hard to put on, because they
are tight, and start squatting. The sleeves will keep the knee warm and
provide some additional support until you get the surrounding structure of the
knee stronger.

I would highly recommend either Starting Strength or Strong Lifts 5x5.

------
generalpass
> “But if you go to the restroom once or twice a day for a bowel movement and
> five times a day for bladder function, that’s five or six times a day you’ve
> squatted.”

Ancient man squatted to take a leak? That's not what I do in the forest...

~~~
michaelcampbell
I've tried squatting (a la home-made squatty potty type thing) at home, and
while it works ok with #2, #1 while sitting... nope. It reorients my plumbing
to not point in the right direction for capture.

------
ummonk
Old people in the developing world often have knee or back problems. I don't
think significant squatting is a good idea.

The article buries the fact that "there are studies to suggest that
populations that spend excessive time in a deep squat (hours per day), do have
a higher incidence of knee and osteoarthritis issues."

~~~
triceratops
Knee and back are universal problem areas for old people.

~~~
boutad
> there are studies to suggest that populations that spend excessive time in a
> deep squat (hours per day), do have a higher incidence of knee and
> osteoarthritis issues.

~~~
triceratops
They linked to one study. Here's the method they used:

"We recruited a random sample of Beijing residents age > or =60 years.
Subjects answered questions on joint symptoms, and knee radiographs were
obtained. Subjects were also asked to recall the average amount of time spent
on squatting each day at youth (25 years or so)."

The full text of the paper is unavailable (404) so I can't say whether they
controlled for factors such as family income, occupational history, weight
issues etc. Relying on people in their 60s to remember how much they used to
squat daily 30+ years ago doesn't seem like it will give necessarily accurate
or reliable data (though I also can't think of other methods that don't
involve time travel).

I think more studies, with better quality data, are needed to definitively
state that prolonged squatting leads to knee issues. And in the Western world,
many can't even do a full-depth squat, let alone prolonged squatting, so maybe
start with that before worrying about knee issues.

