
Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents - sjcsjc
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53246899
======
99_00
I live in Vancouver.

The pattern for many Hong Kong immigrants is to have the mother and children
live in Canada while the father works in HK.The family doesn't declare the
foreign income in Canada.

So they enjoy the benefits of a low tax HK income. And they get all the nice
things that go with living in high tax Canada while not contributing to it
-free healthcare, subsided University, safe communities, clean environment,
low income benefits.

It's so common it has a name, satalite family/astronaut dad.

This isn't a good deal for Canada and Canadians.

[https://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/the-unsettled-
live...](https://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/the-unsettled-lives-of-
wealthy-transnational-migrants/)

~~~
vanekjar
> mother and children live in Canada while the father works in HK.The family
> doesn't declare the foreign income in Canada.

Why would the father pay taxes in Canada when he lives and works in HK (or
anywhere else) and (likely) is not a Canadian tax resident? It doesn't make
any sense.

After all they pay local taxes in Canada while spending (GST, PST, property
tax etc.)

~~~
koheripbal
Income tax is by far the largest and most progressive tax.

Sales taxes are small and regressive.

It's a monster difference.

~~~
vanekjar
How is the sales tax regressive when there is a fixed percentage?

Like the more I spent the less I pay in sales tax? I don't think so.

~~~
raydev
It is regressive when you consider the position of the buyer. People _need_ to
buy large items, and low income people are disproportionately hurt by taxes on
those items.

~~~
vanekjar
That doesn't mean it's regressive. It's just a demagogy.

Low income people buy less things and pay lower sales tax proportionally.
Wealthy people spend more on luxurious goods and pay way higher tax in
absolute numbers. Everyone is hurt the same.

On top of that, necessities (food, medication, books) are usually exempt from
the sales tax.

~~~
iguy
The logic of calling a flat sales tax regressive is (I think) that poor people
spend most of their income, while rich people save more, and thus pay a lower
percentage of their income.

Agree that this isn't a great way to look at things. And that (as you say)
there are often different rates of sales tax on potatoes vs yachts.

------
whatshisface
If I was China, I would love for the US and the UK to take the law-aware and
dissident people off my hands.

~~~
joaomacp
Pretty soon the law-abiding and obedient people will become aware that life
outside of authoritarianism is better and safer, and they will either run away
or revolt.

~~~
throw51319
Life in China is fine right now. They are living about 50x better off than
their parents. They are educated.

The CCP is super clever and imbued a sort of nationalistic pride from birth.
Instead of the US's more complicated dualistic individualism/patriotism combo,
the Chinese people actually get some sort of pride for being a cog in the CCP
machine.

It's a completely different paradigm and obviously super dangerous because it
allows the people at the top who aren't elected to pull the strings on a
machine of 1.4 billion people. If they run the system correctly, it can be
much more "effective".

Democracy has lots of pressure outlets, and it is definitely much more healthy
longterm. That's why I think it's the better system, even vs a well-run (and
let's even assume benevolent) CCP.

~~~
Apfel
It should be pointed out that life in Hong Kong is definitely not markedly
better for young people than it was for their parents.

~~~
throw51319
Yup, and exactly part of the reason they are protesting. Goes to show how much
"relative" economic success is important to peoples' satisfaction of
government.

Even in the US, that is the #1 issue in every Pres election. How's the
economy? Aka do people with 401k's think that they are better off, and thus do
they think they are doing better against their peers (their competition for
finding a mate/maintaining their mate)

------
sampo
68% of conservative voters, 71% of labour voters, and 77% of libdem voters
support this.

[https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-
reports/2020/0...](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-
reports/2020/07/01/support-helping-british-passport-holders-hong-kong)

~~~
nly
Surprising isn't it, given how much of a driving force EU immigration was in
the Brexit debate.

~~~
ksec
It kind of depends, immigration wasn't a big part of it from talking with many
business partners. Many just dont like the idea rules are being made in
Brussels.

~~~
arethuza
The claim that Turkey was soon going to join the EU (which isn't going to
happen) and flood the country with Turkish immigrants was a major component of
vote leave messaging: "Turkey/NHS/£350 million".

Edit: FYI Dominic Cummings actually blogged about the important of Turkey to
their success:

[https://dominiccummings.com/2017/01/09/on-the-
referendum-21-...](https://dominiccummings.com/2017/01/09/on-the-
referendum-21-branching-histories-of-the-2016-referendum-and-the-frogs-before-
the-storm-2/)

~~~
nailer
To be fair Angela Merkel flooded Germany with millions of immigrants from the
middle East.

~~~
nailer
Here's a source if you need one: [https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/europes-
border-crisis/germ...](https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/europes-border-
crisis/germany-s-merkel-faces-political-crisis-over-migrant-policy-n883441)

------
sct202
It's interesting to see how proactive a lot of developed countries are being
with getting ready to welcome refugees from Hong Kong, especially compared to
the Syrian crisis a few years ago.

~~~
numpad0
UK offer is a 5-year timed right to stay, not even permanent residence.

~~~
nly
5 years continuous residence is typically the requirement to apply for
permanent residence and ultimately citizenship.

------
ericmay
US has as well to some extent [1]. I hope the entire Anglosphere follows suit
(CAN/AUS/NZ).

[1][https://www.wsj.com/articles/hong-kong-police-make-first-
sec...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/hong-kong-police-make-first-security-law-
arrest-as-thousands-protest-11593591072?mod=hp_lead_pos1)

~~~
ReticentVole
Aus and NZ are still in futile COVID suppression mode, so they are unlikely to
be taking in a million Hongkies any time soon.

I'm sure they'll get around to it though - it will reinflate their property
markets which have sagged a bit this year.

~~~
skissane
Arrivals from overseas face mandatory quarantine, so I don’t see how COVID is
an obstacle.

I think the Australian government is worried about further deterioration in
the Australia-China relationship. I think they’ll do something if
UK/US/Canada/NZ make the first move.

------
fatjokes
I'm super curious to see how this will turn out for the UK. A lot of the
comments here mention HK's relative high education, English proficiency and
wealth.

If those are true: the upside will be easier settlement into the UK, maybe
increased entrepreneurship. The downsides are: driving up local housing
prices, increased competition for jobs.

If those are false, the UK may experience an influx of lower-wage labor and
increased competition for blue-collar jobs. Possibly even increased crime
(maybe Triads would move to the UK?)

I have a feeling anti-Asian/Chinese racism would spike in the UK. It has
popular bipartisan support right now (another comment mentioned that) because
anti-China/CCP sentiment is probably at an all-time high, but you can't take
in thousands/millions of people in a short amount of time from a different
culture without expecting an impact on your own.

tl;dr: How do I invest in British real estate?

~~~
tomp
> The downsides are: driving up local housing prices, increased competition
> for jobs.

No, no.

Increasing housing prices are a long-standing policy in the UK (and many other
Western countries, as evidenced by low credit rates and extra bonuses for
mortgages) and a gift to many voters (whose personal wealth is tied to their
homes), and would be a welcome boost in times of COVID.

If the UK was afraid of brain drain of London's financial elite (UK's big
"export" is finance) because of Brexit just a year ago, vacuuming up HK's
financial elite would be a welcome counterweight.

~~~
fatjokes
Nope, not buying those. Perhaps I should have defined "downside" with "for
whom".

> Increasing housing prices are a long-standing policy in the UK (and many
> other Western countries, as evidenced by low credit rates and extra bonuses
> for mortgages) and a gift to many voters (whose personal wealth is tied to
> their homes), and would be a welcome boost in times of COVID.

Would you apply that same argument to say, Vancouver? Would you say their
increased housing prices is a welcome boost? The locals certainly don't think
so.

> If the UK was afraid of brain drain of London's financial elite (UK's big
> "export" is finance) because of Brexit just a year ago, vacuuming up HK's
> financial elite would be a welcome counterweight.

My understanding is that the "brain drain" is because the finance jobs would
move to somewhere in the EU (and the expertise would simply move with them).
It's not like they're leaving because the UK doesn't pay well in that sector
(e.g., Canada vs. the US in the tech, medical sectors).

------
arethuza
There was an idea floating around in 1989 to build a "New Hong Kong" in
Scotland!

[https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/11920027.scotland-
could-...](https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/11920027.scotland-could-be-
site-of-new-hong-kong-says-study/)

Edit: I'm sure we could find a bit that was fairly similar to the scenery of
Hong Kong, though not sure we can do much about the weather....

~~~
Nginx487
Great initiative, given that most of the immigrants are educated, experienced
professionals, and have English as their second native language. Definitely,
democratic progressive countries should compete for the right to host Hong
Kongers.

------
Ritsuko_akagi
> About 350,000 UK passport holders, and 2.6 million others eligible, will be
> able to come to the UK for five years.

Hong kong has a population of over 7 mil so this is less than half. What's the
criteria for this chance at a uk citizenship?

I found a good video about the special passports given to hong kong from the
uk. It is a bit complicated but this video seems to summarise the important
bits quite well.[1]

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP9XB3JIa0o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP9XB3JIa0o)

~~~
throwaway1997
The summary is that before the handover in 1997 everyone was offered a status
called British National (Overseas). Anyone who accepted this offer retained
their nationality after the handover, and anyone who didn't permanently lost
their chance to be a BNO.

------
nanna
The excellent Freedom of Movement blog is publishing great explainers on this.

[https://www.freemovement.org.uk/bno-visa-hong-kong-
dominic-r...](https://www.freemovement.org.uk/bno-visa-hong-kong-dominic-r..).

tldr;

It applies to Hong Kongers who applied for British National (Overseas)
Citizenship (BNO) before registration closed in 1997, and it can not be
inherited. Many of the young HK protestors will therefore be ineligible for
it.

BNO is an obscure post-Colonial status applicable to Hong Kongers which did
not up till now grant long term residence to the UK.

BNOs who now want to take up the government's offer for long term residence in
the UK will have to fork a significant up front fee. This makes it available
only to wealthy BNOs. If the government wanted to they could have changed the
law to allow them to skip much of this, but they haven't.

------
LatteLazy
No, only to a tiny subset of HK residents on a very arbitrary basis,
specifically excluding anyone under 23 (so most protestors) and any child (so
most people who don't want to literally abandon their kids).

~~~
M2Ys4U
BNOs can bring their children with them, the visa restrictions have also been
lifted for dependants.

------
vmception
Hong Kong as a Special Economic Zone (SEZ) instead of a Special Administrative
Region (SAR) would be an easy transition. Although I don't see it more
appealing than other SEZ's Shanghai's Free Trade Zone or the entire Hainan
Province.

But the consolidation of existing companies and operations in Hong Kong would
still be pretty unique, its uniqueness still not that relevant. For regional
price discovery it would be useful, like for some publicly traded companies or
local futures markets.

~~~
magicsmoke
HK has the inertia of having lots preexisting international HQs there. Any
takers on how many of those will move out over the coming decades? > or < 50%
of them?

~~~
vmception
Losing its special trading status with the US should already be the catalyst
for that.

But the market based economies of China's Special Economic Zones should make
Hong Kong as attractive as any other major financial center, instead of as a
micro-state.

There are many international HQs in major financial centers under high tax
regimes, whether it is Shanghai, New York City, London, Frankfurt.

I would say 30% move, so less than 50%. Incumbents in Hong Kong are already
beneficiaries of the Communist Party in Beijing, otherwise corporate consensus
in the LegCo would have matched the individual consensus already.

------
vantheman12312
A rare display of competent politicians in the UK

------
BluffFace
The US needs to join the UK and be vocal in support of the Hong Kong people.

~~~
computerfriend
The US has been far more vocal already.

------
daemin
I would have said that returning Hong Kong back to China was one of the
biggest mistakes the UK has made, but here we are in 2020.

It would have been better if they made it into an independent city state like
Singapore.

~~~
swarnie_
If you don't return something at the end of a contract is that theft? or
piracy?

Its not like the UK had a choice. We're you expecting them to go all Hawaii on
the situation and just annex it?

~~~
delecti
The government they made the contract with didn't even exist anymore. The Qing
Empire made that contract with the UK. Independence or just keeping HK in the
UK both make at least as much sense as giving it to a country that didn't even
exist when the contract was formed.

~~~
tasogare
Then Honk Hong should have been given back to the Republic of China (Taiwan)
which is the direct successor of the Qing empire, not the PRC. RPC is not a
successor of Qing nor ROC since ROC still exists.

~~~
delecti
Honestly I think so too, but I doubt the UK government wanted to start a war
with China.

~~~
tasogare
Hum I was half trolling half serious, having skin in the game in favour of
Taiwan. Interesting the game Wargame: Red Dragon has exactly a campaign about
UK vs PRC over HK.

And I spoke that after having of talk with a Japanese people today and they
fear they are the next on the list. I told them Japan at like 6th or 5th
powerful army despite Article 9, + US alliance (that we all understand as half
trustable only), so quite able to defend themselves. A lot of people in East
Asian (HK, Vietnam, Philipines, Japan) fear China. This is what I got from
talking with friends from this country. Everyone think there will be war at
some point, only the time and starting place is unknown.

------
nieksand
This article lists some key provisions from the Chinese Communist Party's
security law:

[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-
china-52765838](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52765838)

~~~
monkeypizza
Some real kickers in here:

* Beijing will establish a new security office in Hong Kong, with its own law enforcement personnel - neither of which would come under the local authority's jurisdiction

* This office can send some cases to be tried in mainland China - but Beijing has said it will only have that power over a "tiny number" of cases

* Beijing will have power over how the law should be interpreted, not any Hong Kong judicial or policy body. If the law conflicts with any Hong Kong law, the Beijing law takes priority

~~~
nieksand
Advocating for Hong Kong independence can also earn you a life sentence:

"Crimes of secession, subversion, terrorism and collusion with foreign forces
are punishable by a maximum sentence of life in prison"

I'm not sure if criticizing Chairman Xi or the CCP would qualify as
subversion.

~~~
entropea
Aren't there also similar laws like that in USA? People are being recommended
life sentences for throwing a molotov at an __empty __police vehicle during
these George Floyd protests and are being labeled as terrorists by Trump.

[https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/us/brooklyn-molotov-
lawyers-p...](https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/us/brooklyn-molotov-lawyers-
protests/index.html)

~~~
derision
Good. I don't care if it's a police car or someone's personal car or an empty
cardboard box. If you're throwing around molotov cocktails you should go to
jail.

~~~
unicornfinder
To be fair though, even if you think people should go to jail for that (and I
don't think that's an unreasonable view), surely you'd agree that a life
sentence is excessive?

~~~
derision
A life sentence is excessive yes, but why are we trying to justify throwing
molotiv cocktails in the first place? What happened to civility?

------
pinfisher
Isnt this the kind of thing that starts wars.

------
Nginx487
I'm really happy the UK did not leave the former colony to suffer under the
communist regime. Reminds me of the situation with Jews before WWII - if they
were given the same kind of refuge by any country, Holocaust would hot had
happened. Sometimes I dream, who'd have offered citizenship or at least refuge
to residents of Russia, to escape our ongoing Soviet Union restoration.

------
nathanhammond
Nobody wants to leave Hong Kong. We're on the streets fighting for our home
alongside people who love it just as much as we do. We have spent the past
year gathering to sing, to celebrate, to mourn, and to fight for this place
that we love. The past year has made it immensely clear how special a place
Hong Kong is—even with the many things that can be improved.

This offer is appreciated and I believe that those who accept it as expedient
will not be looked down upon by others. When you have the Sword of Damocles
hanging over your head it is an exhausting existence. Many in the resistance
will move overseas and continue their efforts.

From an economic standpoint, any emigration of Hong Kongers is likely to be
beneficial to the places where they land. Those most likely to take this offer
in the short term will coincide with those who are most materially wealthy.
Given that the CCP has threatened to revoke the Chinese Nationality of those
who accept an offer of this sort (and has been known to use family members as
leverage), I do not expect that, as a sibling comment states, we would see
people trying to use this as a tax avoidance scheme.

From a demographic standpoint, many of the people who will choose to leave are
young. This is a significant benefit to many places in the world who have
declining birth rates. The UK population pyramid, for example, would appear to
benefit from immigration of a younger cohort. [1]

As to efficacy, there is a gap in coverage for those born shortly after the
handover. It's unclear how many will fall into that gap but it does represent
a cohort of people who tend more toward exclusively identifying as Hong
Kongers. [2] People who qualify as dependents of BNO holders appear to be
eligible so that gap may be approximately six years: July 1, 1997 - July 1,
2003. It also doesn't account for children of HK immigrants and I have no
insight into those demographics and their opinions (possibly a significant
number of mainland immigrants who identify as Chinese).

As a real gesture, instead of the words that have been spent accomplishing
nothing for the past year, this is a welcome change. Hong Kongers are now
hoping for 攬炒, "if we burn, you burn with us." But if nobody holds the CCP
accountable it just becomes "we burn."

(I'm a US passport holder. I am a Hong Kong immigrant. My wife was born and
raised in Hong Kong (土生土長香港人). I'm currently studying Cantonese full time at
CUHK (中文大學). I have a 光復香港時代革命 flag hanging in my apartment. I wrote this
quickly: there will be errors, glosses, and poorly expressed things. I do not
speak for all Hong Kongers and their experiences, hopes, wishes, desires, and
dreams.)

[1]
[https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populati...](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/ukpopulationpyramidinteractive/2020-01-08)

[2]
[https://www.hkupop.hku.hk/pori_table_chart/EthnicIdentity/Q0...](https://www.hkupop.hku.hk/pori_table_chart/EthnicIdentity/Q001_Hongkonger_byagegp/Q001_Hongkonger_byagegp_chart.html)

------
magnusmagnusson
"... the government to dissolve the people and elect another."

------
tibbydudeza
Pity they did not extend the same courtesy to all the descendants of the
"Windrush" immigration wave from the Caribbean but then they are just poor
black folk.

------
justinclift
Wonder how many of the eligible people are TSMC employees or contractors? :)

~~~
zaxu
You're thinking of a different country.

~~~
ed25519FUUU
The CPP would like to have a word with you for referring to Taiwan as a
“different country”

~~~
prewett
They need to stop strong-arming the rest of us into accepting their made-up-
reality. They can live in fantasy land if they want, but they don't get to
make me live in their fantasy.

~~~
spacehunt
Congratulations, you've just violated the brand-new HK National Security Law,
which according to article 38 applies to everyone on Earth.

------
akerro
Is this an attempt to fill immigration gaps after EU immigration collapses? I
don't believe the government actually cares about anything that going on in
HK.

~~~
toyg
I wouldn't be surprised if the government thought exactly that, but I don't
think it would work - HKers are mostly urban and well-educated, especially the
politicized groups that are worried by Chinese rule. It's unlikely they will
happily accept to become an underclass.

Still, it is the decent thing to do. It also underlines once again this
country has no real power or influence left in the superpower age. Before, we
could at least try to get the EU to go to bat for our interests, and have a
real impact. We have none of that now, which is probably part of the reason
the Chinese accelerated the process.

~~~
blibble
> Before, we could at least try to get the EU to go to bat for our interests,
> and have a real impact.

the same EU that rewrote its coronavirus report several times in fear of CCP
repercussions?

[https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/world/europe/disinformati...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/world/europe/disinformation-
china-eu-coronavirus.html)

come on

~~~
ben_w
They said “try”. Rest of the EU might have said “no”, but now the EU hasn’t
got any more reason to listen to the UK than to listen to, say, Australia’s
opinion about Hong Kong.

Then there is also the reduced power of the EU post-Brexit. Just because
Brexit costs the UK influence doesn’t mean it _doesn’t_ cost the EU too —
without the UK, the EU is only about 85% of the GDP of the other two big trade
giants (the USA and China are each about equal to what the EU was with the
UK).

~~~
growlist
But there's no reason that an independent UK and the EU cannot work together
where their interests align, is there? The idea that it's all or nothing is
nothing more than yet another canard put about by anti-Brexit protagonists.

~~~
ben_w
_If_ their interests aligned. Without the UK having a seat at the table, they
‘ain’t going to align. That is literally the point of Brexit in the first
place, for the UK to diverge from the EU, because without that the members of
the current U.K. government would not have campaigned for it in the first
place.

And that big flashing neon “if” is still true with a competent government, let
alone the current lot which (as per recent news) is pouring money into a
failed multinational project that cannot fit their requirements just to avoid
the embarrassment of continuing to spend money on entirely successful
multinational projects that happen to be EU-branded.

Also, what do ducks have to do with anything?

> yet another canard

~~~
growlist
Definition of canard

1a : a false or unfounded report or story especially : a fabricated report The
report about a conspiracy proved to be a canard. b : a groundless rumor or
belief the widespread canard that every lawyer is dishonest

------
tobzuts
Typical shoddy journalism. Bandies numbers about: '150.000', 'up to 3 million'
, when talking about the numbers likely to qualify to come to UK but never
actually tells us what the population of Hong Kong is in the first place. So
is this everyone?... 50% of the population?... 25%?.. 10%?...

~~~
dan1234
A quick Google would tell you the population of Hong Kong is 7,500,700 (2019
estimate).

~~~
spuz
The point is that from a journalistic point of view the number of people
eligible for citizenship is meaningless without the context of either the
population of Hong Kong or of the UK or perhaps the number of immigrants the
UK typically sees from Hong Kong and other countries. It's very common in
articles to see numbers that have no meaning without context. Either the
context should be provided or the numbers should not be mentioned.

~~~
spacehunt
But even the Home Office doesn't know the exact number.

They know how many current BN(O) holders there are. But they don't know how
many are eligible exactly -- they have the entire list of people who have
received one, but that's over 20 years ago, and a lot could have happened to
them since.

