

Tell HN: My experience with karma average staring me in the eye . . . - tossedout999

The inclusion of the karma box in the top right has me caring about my per-post average for the first time.<p>I am more gun shy about posting comments that might get a below the average response.<p>I find myself hunting to comment on "fresher" stories which almost always = more karma.<p>I know I know solution is "stop caring" but I feel somehow more watched or more accountable.<p>Looking forward to PG sharing results of the experiment.<p>And hearing other folks comment about positive / negative.
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gdl
Would it help to suggest that, on average, half of your posts should get a
below average response? Most of them, actually, if you take into account how
much the average can be skewed by a handful of high-scoring posts.

If you're being disinclined from posting one-word answers and empty "me too"
responses: cool. No one would miss those. But if you're stopping yourself from
posting interesting or helpful responses to old or unpopular threads? That's
when you should stop caring about "karma" the poorly-quantified score and
worry more about "karma" the concept. Being directly helpful to a dozen
individuals in otherwise ignored threads would usually give a lower karma
average than simply posting a clickable version of a link, but you'd get a lot
more real respect from it.

Also keep in mind that anyone that sees your average karma will see your total
right next to it, and if you game either one too much at the expense of the
other it could give a worse overall impression than posting normally. I'd
rather see a 1000-total 3-average poster than a 100-total 8-average or a
5000-total 1.1-average.

~~~
malandrew
What you say about averages is very very true.

Linus Pauling once said "If you want to have good ideas you must have many
ideas. Most of them will be wrong, and what you have to learn is which ones to
throw away."

which can be extended to:

"If you want to have good HN comments you must have many HN comments. Half of
them will always be below average, and what you have to learn is which ones
never to post."

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radu_floricica
I'd say the single most significant thing pg could do for the karma system is
to weight votes by the total number of votes in the story.

Right now it is way easier to get karma in animate, controversial topics
rather then in insightful, complex discussions.

I think I understand why he hesitates: weighting removes the simplicity of one
vote - one point. But if karma is supposed to overcome blind popularity, I
think it's necessary.

~~~
sz
Easy karma fraud.

~~~
radu_floricica
Not if weighting is below 1.0, i.e. threads with lots of comments get less
karma, but sparse threads get close to 1.0.

~~~
sz
Something like

    
    
      karma per vote = #comments / #votes
    

Okay, actually that sounds reasonable.

~~~
sz
Hah wait that's not actually what you said, which still doesn't sound
reasonable.

Also a better formula might be something closer to

    
    
      karma per vote = thread karma / total comment karma in thread

~~~
sz
Oh, and of course the _average_ would have to be weighted by thread karma.

    
    
      average = total user karma / sum of thread karma over all threads commented in

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runjake
The "gun shyness" aspect is unfortunate.

At first glance, it makes it sound like " _grumble grumble_ good, now HN
comments will be less like Reddit _grumble grumble_ ". But, in reality, people
will be discouraged from participating in less popular discussion threads that
either aren't "hot" or fill an interests niche, of which there's been many.

Or at worst, it will encourage my friends to mindlessly upvote my comment in
order to help me keep my karma average going.

Aside from that, I appreciate pg's experiments, or rather, the data results of
his experiments!

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sorbus
By comparison, I've barely noticed it. In fact, I'm actually commenting more
than I used to, instead of just writing something and then closing the tab
because I don't feel that it will add to the discussion. I just say things
when I feel like I have something to add, while filtering out useless
comments, which is exactly the behavior which I think should be encouraged.

------
jiganti
My average karma is very low, I've noticed that I rarely hesitate to post
something, regardless of the thread size. I think this is because I benefit
sometimes from other late-thread low-karma posts and want to reciprocate.

Much has already been said about the current state of HN and karma, but one
thing I'd like to add is this: comments that provoke discussion (i.e. comments
that are responded to) should perhaps be valued higher than ones that do not.
Excluding those that are downvoted and responded to because of that,
obviously.

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Towle_
_I am more gun shy about posting comments that might get a below the average
response._

This is what makes this a dangerous road to go down.

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noahc
My Average Karma hasn't changed? Does the algo only calculate new averages
after a certain threshold?

~~~
drallison
I believe that the average is computed of all HN posts you have made. That
means that it becomes harder and harder to change the average response,
particularly if you have posted a lot. Your performance is locked in by your
history and the law of large numbers.

It might make sense to have a time window on karma and have the average
reflect the last 30 days or the last 100 posts or something of that ilk.

------
bediger
I had the exact same experience when I realized you got to down vote when you
had "enough karma". That is, I found that just a total karma had the same
effect. I've only just noticed the average karma, so call me slow.

