
Water-stabilized hydrogen promises twice the range of gasoline at half the price - prostoalex
https://newatlas.com/electriq-global-hydrogen-liquid-wonder-fuel/57488/
======
mikeash
“When it's fully loaded, the fuel contains about three percent hydrogen and 97
percent supporting material.”

This fuel, which is 97% inert material, is supposed to have energy density
comparable to gasoline? Either I’m fundamentally misunderstanding something or
this is buulllllshiiiit.

~~~
jetrink
The Toyota Mirai can store 5kg of hydrogen (giving it a 500km range). This
system would require about 150kg of inert material to store the same amount of
hydrogen. That's only about three times the weight of a full tank of gas and
doesn't seem totally impractical. The other claims sound pretty far-fetched
though. For twice the range of an ICE car, it would need a much larger tank.

1\. [https://insideevs.com/toyota-mirai-fuel-cell-sedan-priced-
at...](https://insideevs.com/toyota-mirai-fuel-cell-sedan-priced-
at-57500-specs-videos/)

~~~
mikeash
It seems reasonable to assume this stuff has a density similar to water, since
it’s mostly water anyway. That means you’d need a 150 liter tank to achieve
500km of range. A typical car has, what, a 40 liter tank? And they’re
promising more like 1,200km of range from that size tank.

~~~
Vendan
60% water, so it depends on what the other 37% is

~~~
mikeash
Even if the other 37% takes up no space at all, it still doesn’t come close to
adding up.

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Animats
This company is the successor to Terragenic, which has been around since
2013.[1] Same people. Same claims. Still no demo. Now, with better graphics on
the web site.

What they're probably hyping is water-stabilized hydrogen peroxide. Habo, a
hydrogen peroxide manufacturer in Shanghai, showed a hydrogen peroxide fueled
car in 2004.[2] There's been work on hydrogen peroxide fuel cells.[3][4] So
it's sort of possible to do something like this. But the cost and range claims
are based on nothing.

[1] [https://www.smh.com.au/business/fuel-saving-cars-
showcased-i...](https://www.smh.com.au/business/fuel-saving-cars-showcased-in-
china-20041018-gdjxrn.html)

[2]
[https://www.bloomberg.com/research//stocks/private/snapshot....](https://www.bloomberg.com/research//stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=432107790)

[3]
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03787...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378775314019119)

[4]
[https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2018/cc/c8cc0...](https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2018/cc/c8cc06802j#!divAbstract)

------
starbeast
Sounds vaguely related to this tech -
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03787...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378775306021264)

'Direct NaBH4/H2O2 fuel cells'

"A fuel cell (FC) using liquid fuel and oxidizer is under investigation. H2O2
is used in this FC directly at the cathode. Either of two types of reactant,
namely a gas-phase hydrogen or an aqueous NaBH4 solution, are utilized as fuel
at the anode. Experiments demonstrate that the direct utilization of H2O2 and
NaBH4 at the electrodes results in >30% higher voltage output compared to the
ordinary H2/O2 FC. Further, the use of this combination of all liquid fuels,
provides numerous advantages (ease of storage, reduced pumping requirements,
simplified heat removal, etc.) from an operational point of view. This design
is inherently compact compared to other cells that use gas phase reactants.
Further, regeneration is possible using an electrical input, e.g. from power
lines or a solar panel. While the peroxide-based FC is ideally suited for
applications such as space power where air is not available and a high energy
density fuel is essential, other distributed and mobile power uses are of
interest."

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nayuki
Storing energy as hydrogen is much less efficient than storing energy in
batteries. The channel Real Engineering explains:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7MzFfuNOtY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7MzFfuNOtY)
;
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPheEg-K2qc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPheEg-K2qc)

~~~
clouddrover
But on the plus side, hydrogen fuel cell cars refuel faster than battery
electrics. The Hyundai Nexo refuels in 5 minutes for a range of 600+ KMs:

[https://www.hyundai.de/Modelle/NEXO.html](https://www.hyundai.de/Modelle/NEXO.html)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Nexo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Nexo)

That said, Porsche and BMW are working on a fast charger than can deliver
100km of range in 3 minutes, 80% charge in 15 minutes:

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-13/bmw-
porsc...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-13/bmw-porsche-
boast-three-minute-charging-jolt-for-electric-cars)

I think battery electrics will win out over hydrogen fuel cell cars in the
long run just because more of the infrastructure is already there and it's
easier to build out fast charger stations than hydrogen fueling stations. But
hydrogen will be part of the mix, maybe more for heavy vehicles than cars.

~~~
gwbas1c
Time to charge isn't as important as you think. It's more important to have
chargers where you're going. This way you don't have to go out of your way to
fuel.

For example, imagine if you could charge your car at the grocery store, at a
restaurant, at the amusement park, parking garage by a concert, ect, ect.

~~~
clouddrover
I never said it was ultra-important. I'm just saying faster chargers are
eroding a benefit hydrogen fuel cell cars have over battery electrics.

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magwa101
You lost me at dispensing spent "fuel" at the gas station, that is a massive
infrastructure change. Sorry, no buena.

~~~
whamlastxmas
Not any bigger of a change than electric chargers and that's working very well

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seambot1
The "switch" unit sounds like it's just a chemical catalyst for electrolysis
of water into Hydrogen and Oxygen...

~~~
chaz6
Also the catalyst is patented and only made in one country (Israel).

~~~
kwhitefoot
If, as another comment says, it is hydrogen peroxide then the catalyst is
probably a variant of something already well known.

There are lots of catalysts, but as it says in the article that it has to be
replaced at intervals of something like a year it also has to be cheap, so
probably not platinum. There are organic catalysts too and it's not
unreasonable to think that there are usable catalysts that would not be
covered by a patent; if the process works at all that is.

------
fromthestart
This sort of reads like an advertisement.

>Using a standard sized fuel tank, the Electriq system would, according to
modeling, cost less than half the equivalent gasoline price to fill up, and it
would deliver around twice the range, while being completely emissions-free –
at least, back to the fuel production plant.

Huge if true, but I'd like to see their methods.

~~~
mark-r
If you read further into the article, there's no chance it will be half the
price of gas - if there's any differential the middlemen are going to eat it
up.

