

Fake Bus Stops For Alzheimer’s patients in Germany (2011) - iamwil
http://www.theiacp.org/About/Governance/Divisions/StateAssociationsofChiefsofPoliceSACOP/CurrentSACOPProjects/MissingAlzheimersDiseasePatientInitiative/AlzheimersSuccessStory/tabid/1007/Default.aspx?id=1665

======
nitrogen
In a way I find this kind of manipulation tragically sad, but in reality the
true tragedy is the cognitive decline associated with Alzheimer's. I'm glad
nursing homes have figured out a way to mitigate some of the problems until
scientists can cure or prevent Alzheimer's for good.

~~~
lidahasbrouck
The only "tragically sad" part is the fact that most people in developed
nations end up in institutions, rather than being cared for by their families.

If you want to see "tragically sad," volunteer at any nursing home in the US
with a dementia/Alzheimer's ward. It's a prison where everyone's on death row,
the only difference is the food sucks.

What they're doing by going along with their delusions is offering these
elderly people more peace in their confusion. Interrupting a delusion abruptly
is like slapping a baby for crying - they can't help their situation and
limitations and they won't understand the punishment.

~~~
zizee
Looking after someone with dementia is a full time job which is very
emotionally draining and people can live many years with dementia. A lot of
people could not afford to look after their loved ones, economically or
mentally.

I imagine you'll quit your job when the time comes to look after your parents?

If I ever get dementia I'd like to be euthanasied, rather than have my
children suffer through it.

~~~
winter_blue
> I imagine you'll quit your job when the time comes to look after your
> parents?

One of my dad's coworkers did exactly that. He gave up his high paying six-
figure job to go back to India to take care of his dad.

~~~
zizee
I know that some people can do this and good on them for doing it, but not
everyone will be in the position to do it.

------
JunkDNA
This made me pause and think about what might be needed when I get old. Will
the nursing home need to have a vintage Macbook seeded with data from The
Internet Archive so I can obsessively check Hacker News and Twitter to see if
anything is "new"?

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Make it in advance, and make it in C.

------
pork
OT, but that is one _hell_ of a hierarchical URL

~~~
kitsune_
They use DotNetNuke, a god awful CMS running on ASP.NET WebForms. Together
with Umbraco, it's the most popular open source CMS in the Microsoft world.
It's really sad.

You can access the page (internally called a "tab") by its "TabId", for
instance: <http://www.theiacp.org/tabid/1007/Default.aspx?id=1665>

or, just by using query string parameters:
[http://www.theiacp.org/Default.aspx?tabid=1007&id=1665](http://www.theiacp.org/Default.aspx?tabid=1007&id=1665)

DotNetNuke uses a system similar to Joomla (at least I think so) where a page
is composed of instances of modules that are placed inside "panes", these
panes in turn are defined by the theme a given page uses.

Alas, I guess they have a custom news module where an article can be accessed
by supplying an id parameter in its query string.

<http://www.theiacp.org/tabid/1007/Default.aspx?id=1660> will point to a
different news article. It's technically still the same page however.

~~~
crazypyro
Oh god, I hate DNN. I had to use it for my fraternity's site when I was
redoing it because one of the alumni is the director of training for it. The
sad part is he would never respond or help. That thing was such a pain to use.
Trying to actually get into the nuts and bolts (css, html, js, ect.) of any of
the pages was horrible.

~~~
christoc
I'm sorry you had a difficult time reaching me and working with DotNetNuke.
Anyone else having trouble trying to learn/use DNN, feel free to email me at
chris.hammond@dnncorp.com or call me at 650-288-3153

------
0ren
A discussion from 2008:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=209955>

A lot of the current post seems to be taken straight from there. Compare, for
example:

> in Alzheimer’s patients their short-term memory hardly works at all, but the
> long-term memory is still active. They know the green and yellow bus sign
> and remember that waiting there means they will go home.

with Goebel's quote:

> 'Their short-term memory hardly works, but the long-term memory is still
> active. They know the green and yellow bus sign and remember that waiting
> there means they will go home.'

------
chmars
In Switzerland, a virtual train is used for the same purpose:

[http://www.bernerzeitung.ch/region/bern/Pflegeheim-
realisier...](http://www.bernerzeitung.ch/region/bern/Pflegeheim-realisiert-
ZugfahrSimulator-fuer-Demente/story/20599776)

(Link leads to a German article.)

------
ddt
They also have these in the US. My grandfather was in a home that had a whole
1940s small town-type setting in the backyard area complete with bus stop,
sidewalk, and a little bit of fake street.

~~~
Gring
That sounds beautiful. Can you give us a link with more info?

~~~
ddt
I can't seem to find a link. It wasn't very large. Maybe 8 feet by 20. But it
was just enough to make it feel like the way things used to be.

------
soitgoes
There was a good radiolab podcast about this:

[http://www.radiolab.org/blogs/radiolab-
blog/2010/mar/23/the-...](http://www.radiolab.org/blogs/radiolab-
blog/2010/mar/23/the-bus-stop/)

------
dools
I can't tell whether I find this crushingly sad or not. On the one hand, I
cried like a baby at the end of the Notebook. On the other hand, this
basically reminds me of what it's like dealing with my 2 year old daughter.

Is it necessarily a tragedy that someone's mind dies before their body does?
It's undoubtedly painful for those waching - but for what reason?

I guess "potential" isn't tragic (ie. my daughter will eventually become a
completely coherent adult) where as this kind of mental decline is like some
sort of extreme nostalgia that basically picks out every sense of loss we've
ever felt and makes it resonate like a tuning fork.

~~~
brazzy
A story that turns that crushing sadness to 11 is Part Four (The Scholar's
Tale) in Dan Simmons' "Hyperion", where a young woman catches a strange
sickness that has her age backward - each morning when she wakes up she's
physically two days younger and has lost one more day of her life memories. I
think it's the saddest thing I've ever read.

~~~
Shorel
The med industry would love the technology to make that possible.

Just think 'Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind' with some extra
rejuvenation added for fun!

I would gladly write some stuff in a diary and go back to 12 years old.

~~~
brazzy
Completely different scenario. In Hyperion, it's a _constantly repeating_
process.

SPOLERS AHEAD

The girl tries to keep herself updated via a diary for years, but eventually
the information about this life she lived but can't remember becomes
overwhelming (requiring hours to digest and come to terms with, repeated every
day) and too disconnected from what she does remember. She asks her parents to
simply lie to her and act as if nothing had happened and it really were the
day after the one she last remembers (i.e. one day earlier for every day that
passes) and there's just some unexpected problem that prevents her from going
to school, meeting her friends, have a birthday party, etc. (since it's SF,
it's possible for the parents not to age).

The parents agree, since watching their daughter struggle with that mind-
boggling revelation every day anew had been painful, but the resulting charade
is in some ways worse, especially after the mother dies in an accident.

------
rplnt
Such stop was used as a trap for "patients" escaping from elderly home in a
short movie Harvie Krumpet. I highly recommend to watch it, it's only 22mins
long and can be found on Youtube:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouyVS6HOFeo>

------
JohnLBevan
Given the number of people on here who appreciate a good life hack, has anyone
got any ideas for other solutions? My family's currently going through the to
home or not to home question. Arguments for standard solutions are
essentially:

\- A care home offers full time protection, but displaces the person from
their familiar environment. Some care homes also don't attend their patients
but focus on making a profit; though we hope that by visiting often and
looking at existing patients we can get an idea of which ones are suitable. It
costs money, but the money in this case comes from my Nan's savings, and she's
not going to be spending it on anything more than basic living costs anyway.
My family don't need the money, so though in some cases inheritance is a
concert (i.e. people save up through their lives to provide for their family
even in death), that's not a concern for our situation.

\- Leaving the person in their own home seems the nicest but least practical
option. Having family members or carers visit frequently to keep an eye on the
person adds in some security, but family can't be there all the time (we're
talking a 90 minute drive there in good traffic; so 3 hours round trip) and
carers aren't immediately recognised so can seem an intrusion to the sufferer,
often leading to stressful confrontations.

\- Having the person move in with their children gives full time protection by
people who know and love them, but strips their children of freedom (their
lives essentially becoming that of full time carers with the added depression
of watching someone they love fade away).

On top of the above there are also internal family conflicts; for example my
aunt is pushing for the state to fund any care solution (by not doing anything
to help ourselves so the state acts as a catch statement) whilst my mum feels
we should do all we can as well as taking what the state offers - but both
working together (i.e. my mum & aunt have been given responsibility over my
nan's care and assets on the condition they use those assets to my nan's best
interest - trying to squeeze more out of the state isn't in her best
interests, but may mean that my mum & aunt would lose their rights because by
not using my nan's assets they're being irresponsible; the state could then
take control of those assets and make all decisions without my mum or aunt's
input).

Given all of these factors (and I'm sure you can all think of more), what
other ideas can you come up with to improve the system to provide a solution
which gives people security and dignity, whilst ensuring that families still
maintain some freedom to experience their own lives?

------
click170
Meanwhile, the visiting tourist is wondering why no bus has come in hours...
lol

~~~
zb
Good point - this wouldn't such be a great solution if it caused problems for
other people. That has been accounted for, though: the sign actually says
"Sonderfahrten" (special trips) in the area where the bus number(s) would be,
to indicate that there is no regular scheduled service.

~~~
entropy_
Well, a tourist would probably not know German(as was my case when I visited
Austria a couple of weeks ago)

~~~
mst
Sure, but one would hope that they -would- know how to look to see whether the
number for the bus they wanted was present.

------
barbs
As terrible, sad and somewhat terrifying as it is, I find Alzheimer's disease
quite fascinating. For those who want to find out more, Louis Theroux's
documentary on the subject is very insightful.

------
underlines
People knowing about fake stuff NOW, who will have Alzheimer in 40 Years, will
NOT forget that there are fake bus-stops and stuff in the backyard. So they
will know that nursing homes have fake stuff and they will complain about it.

My opinion about "it's sad": Alzheimer is not very sad for the pacients, but
for their families. The patients, like my grandfather and grandmother, don't
really know they _have_ it, and they don't really care. They still have 100%
functional feelings and experiences. Just their short time memory will let
them forget anything very soon. But old memories persists.

~~~
cdavoren
Sorry, but this a very limited description of the disease. Alzheimer's, like
all dementias, is a disease of the _brain_ , not "just memory". It comes with
a whole suite of symptoms and difficulties that are experienced directly by
the patient, including depression, irritability, aphasias, and often physical
limitations in advanced cases.

Long-term memory loss dominates public perception of the disease, but as
anyone who works with dementia can tell you, most of the time it is as
distressing for the patient as it is for the family.

~~~
stan_rogers
Dementia is a part of my condition (which seems to be idiopathic, presenting
symptoms of both Parkinson's and Huntington's). The motor difficulties and
aphasic episodes are the things that I can't explain away, even though the
explanations for other things are often quite convoluted. There was a period
of some weeks a couple of years ago now when I amassed what must have been the
largest privately-held collection of tomato ketchup in Canada, apparently by
going shopping for food I needed and, having no idea why I was in a grocery
store (or, for that matter, which store I was in) deciding that I was probably
nearly out of ketchup anyway, and that I could get out of the store without
embarrassment if I bought a bottle. I lost nearly thirty pounds that month,
and wound up in the hospital twice due to extreme dehydration. Apparently I
was not particularly nice to the people who were trying to help me, since I
didn't need their damned help anyway, and they were trying to poison me.
Things are considerably better now with medication, but there are still times
when I find myself completely lost in what should be familiar territory. And
I'm no longer really attached to anybody; it's like that part of me is missing
now, and I can't sustain anything like caring. I don't know how much of the
depression and irritation is part of the pathology and how much is just
frustration and fear (terror, really) that never really goes away. Sometimes I
think that if there is ever a root cause found and a cure effected, it would
take me many years before I would trust normal life again.

------
tome
I assumed it was to be parsed as "(fake bus) stops" but it turns out they've
merely gone to the lengths of "fake (bus stops)"!

------
bobowzki
I'm a med student. I remember this topic came up in our exam on ethics and
philosophy.

~~~
lostlogin
Please elaborate on a few of these aspects (again!). Thanks if you do.

------
josteink
I guess this is what goes as a "psychological hack".

Definitely interesting to see how you can play the same tricks on people as
you can on machines as long as you know enough about how they work internally.

Interesting _and_ scary I guess. We all know how big corp is going to be
spending billions on this to manipulate us all.

~~~
WickyNilliams

        We all know how big corp is going to be spending billions on this to manipulate us all
    

That's more than a little hyperbolic. No matter how much money someone spends,
while I'm sane I will not (cannot?) be manipulated to stand next to a fake bus
stop.

Back on topic, my girlfriend works at a nursing home and she has often spoke
to me about the residents being eager to go home, and just as in the article
the residents often express their intent to find a bus stop. The approach my
girlfriend takes is to tell them that the bus will arrive shortly, and they
simply sit and wait in the home itself, waiting to be notified of the bus's
arrival. Interestingly, some of the residents even think that the nursing home
_itself_ is a bus, and in that case they tell them that their stop is just
around the corner, and they happily sit and wait to alight from the "bus".

To me, the scariest thing is that occurence of Alzheimers will likely increase
as medicine further increases the lifespan of our bodies, but medicine is
rarely successful in increasing the lifespan of our brains. And with that I
sincerely hope that by the time any of us are that old, euthanasia is no
longer a taboo and is a socially-accepted norm.

~~~
SquareWheel

      "No matter how much money someone spends, while I'm sane I will not (cannot?) be manipulated to stand next to a fake bus stop."
    

I'm sure this doesn't apply to you specifically (nor anyone in the HN crowd),
but your statement really made me think of this article.
[http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/video-man-pranks-
times-s...](http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/video-man-pranks-times-square-
crowds-posing-a-fake-celebrity-article-1.1142640)

But to add some substance to this comment, let me add something. Be it
marketing drivel or just the flurry of advertisements we see every day, we are
being conditioned and manipulated. To a society where we need to buy to be
happy, where you need Tide for clean clothes and McDonalds for happy children.
Where brand names matter, and showing wealth is more important than fulfilling
interests. Not to sound all hippy dippy, but I think it's naive to say that we
aren't being manipulated.

I do want to also agree with your last point though. I'm amazed that in our
current society that we have no "right to death". I too hope this changes by
the time I start to turn.

~~~
WickyNilliams
You raise a good point about advertising, we are constantly bombarded with
attempts to manipulate and coerce into specific ways of thinking. Even those
who acknowledge this are likely still being manipulated, though more subtly.

------
petitmiam
Interesting. The nursing home where my grandma was, had a car in the courtyard
for patients with dementia to sit in.

------
michaelfeathers
I immediately thought of the end of the movie 'Ghost World' for some reason.

------
meeper
I am actually living next to one (in Berlin)... It's interesting, because I
never saw a single person there, I have no idea how successful it is here, but
always wanted to ask.

------
squonk
It is a compassionate approach.

------
logn
I can't wait for the google van to take me home.

------
kragen
The broader question is: when is it ethical to deceive people for their own
good? Only when they are suffering from severe dementia?

I deceived a psychotic person into taking an antipsychotic drug once, and I
think it was probably the best thing I could have done, and at the same time,
one of the worst things I've ever done.

------
enay
My grandfather was a railroad worker, replicating that would have been a bit
more of a hassle.

~~~
K2h
If your in the area and he can make the trip, <http://www.oerm.org/> is cool.

------
mmahemoff
I wonder if it will work in a decade or two, when people prior to Alzheimer's
learn about the trick and would perhaps be subconsciously more suspicious.

Or more directly, do they keep doing this with the same patient?

------
raphman
Some photos : [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Schein-
Bushaltestelle...](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Schein-
Bushaltestelle_0009.JPG)

------
wreckimnaked
Maybe it's a German thing; it reminded me of "Goodbye Lenin!"
<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0301357/>

------
DaWeasel
Love that kind of real life/mind hacks !

------
donald_draper
I wish we had fake red lights in Germany, to keep all the crazy obedient
bureaucrats occupied. The longer they wait at red lights, the fewer Wikipedia
pages they can delete or create new tax forms.

------
perfunctory
I read the title as fake-bus stops...

------
nisse72
_Germany and Europe_

Hmm...

------
nisse72
This reminds me of the old guy in Ghost World who waits for the bus that
doesn't run anymore, until it picks him up at the end of the film.

------
lotyrin
A mildly interesting old article that has nothing to do with anything. Am I on
Reddit?

Edit: Yep, posted earlier today:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/yp94q/til_tha...](http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/yp94q/til_that_in_germany_there_are_fake_bus_stops/)

~~~
EvilTerran
<http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

_If your account is less than a year old, please don't submit comments saying
that HN is turning into Reddit._

------
ehuna
Reminds me of that joke: last week my doctor told me I had AIDS & Alzheimer's.
I said, "Sh*t, at least I don't have AIDS!". :)

