
No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems - behoove
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/03/no-spanking-no-time-out-no-problems/475440/
======
marcell
Quoting the article:

> "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out,
> okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And
> choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important.

I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces.
Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but
it never works for me. My 4 year will always ask for a 3rd option that isn't
there, or just reject the framing entirely.

I suspect much of this advice depends on your child's temperament. Tips that
work for one family will not work for another, and it will even vary between
kids in the same family. For me personally, having kids has resolved the
nature vs nurture debate squarely in the "nature" side.

~~~
maxxxxx
That's the problem with one-size-fits-all methods. Kids are just different and
what worked for one child doesn't necessarily work for another child. Even if
you do exactly the same thing.

My girlfriend used to train dogs for a living. She always said "it's the
owner's fault, not the dog's". Now we have a Chihuahua who won't listen,
doesn't respond to rewards, doesn't respond to punishment. She just does her
own thing. My girlfriend is much more humble now. I wish a lot of these child
psychologists would have to deal with a difficult child day in and day out,
not just once a week. Maybe they would also lose some of the confidence in
their advice.

~~~
Waterluvian
I think some breeds are just kind of fundamentally flawed.

Were chihuahuas bred to be obedient or were they bred to be toys and possibly
food?

~~~
maxxxxx
No idea. They are very good lapdogs. Our dog is actually very nice and cute
but she just doesn't learn anything. T

~~~
mulletbum
I have agree with you half don't, I train Australian Shepherds and I can say
without a doubt that positive enforcement works better then positive
punishment. I have worked with 2 Chihuahuas in my lifetime, but were little
pieces of shit that don't respond to anything either way.

So I guess we should clicker train our black/brown haired fat kids and the
blonde skinny ones are screwed.

Seriously though, your post makes me think about how dogs/child teaching is
all in what you have and psychologist (maybe news) try to apply one method to
all of them. It just doesn't work, some kids need one thing and others need
something else. We live in such a crazy complex world.

------
3131s
I live in a very poor Asian country where most every parent has never given a
single thought to behavior theory or been exposed to the whole parenting
industry. It's mostly just feed your kid, let them run around unsupervised
with other kids outside, and have the oldest child handle certain
responsibilities like getting everybody to school on time. Having worked with
kids back in the US and here, the contrast in behavioral problems and social
anxiety is so markedly different that it's definitely shaped the way I'll
parent my own children. The kids here are much less needy and so much more
confident and independent, whereas I can barely spend two minutes around a
western kid without getting royally annoyed. My own parents were very hands-
off and I plan to be even more so.

~~~
caseylabs
I have to agree here. I lived in a tiny village in Laos for 4 months a few
years back, and I have to say, the six year-olds were more mature,
independent, and emotionally sophisticated than some 16 year-olds I knew back
home.

Favorite slightly-related story: while teaching a class of 8 year-olds one
day, a student in the back opened up his desk, and pulled out a machete. My
heart stopped for a beat. He then proceeded to sharpen his pencil with the
machete, then place it back in his desk.

Man, I miss Laos.

Anyways, the North American trend to never leave your kids unattended really
seems to have stifled their independence and ability to strive on their own,
and it's so evident when you travel to some developing countries.

~~~
op00to
That's great and all, but is it possible that extended "childhood" is
essential for being better adjusted in the western world? I wonder how many
machete wielding 8 year olds grow up to be competitive in university.

~~~
LyndsySimon
> I wonder how many machete wielding 8 year olds grow up to be competitive in
> university.

I'm guessing more than you would think, because this isn't _that_ dissimilar
to rural kids in the US.

~~~
novaleaf
To the parent poster's credit, I think there there might be something to it,
the kid is busy learning, and perhaps if he/she is spending all day learning
social/environmental survival skills instead of learning academics, they are
going to be less equipped to handle a 15 year carer of school. than the
"western" kid.

~~~
3131s
All these kids go to school too (though here it's still only 4 hours a day,
which I am envious of) and from tutoring a number of them in English I can
attest to the fact that the kids in my neighborhood are very 'book smart' too.
It might surprise people not from here, but nowadays everybody in Phnom Penh
has tablets and smart phones and they spend a lot of time on those learning.
Intellectually they're more than capable enough to succeed in higher
academics, but financial difficulties may limit some of them.

------
SerLava
> Let’s say you have an adolescent daughter and she says to you, “Mom, you are
> such a bitch. What have you ever done for me? You only think of yourself.”

> The teen may be at the dinner table and just being quiet and not saying
> negative things. Well, when you're starting out, one of the positive-
> opposites can sometimes be reinforcing the non-occurrence of the behavior.
> And you just say, “Marion, it's nice having dinner with you, it's nice that
> you're here.” What that does is reinforce the likelihood that Marion will be
> at the dinner table and not say negative things.

So, I love this here.

Taming the 4 year old requires a psychological trick on the 4 year old. Taming
the 14 year old apparently requires a psychological trick on the 40 year old.

For the teens, the psychologist's advice is literally _" Well, maybe don't be
such a bitch in the first place, Mom."_

~~~
paganel
> Let’s say you have an adolescent daughter and she says to you, “Mom, you are
> such a bitch. What have you ever done for me? You only think of yourself.”

Maybe it's because I grew up as a kid in another culture (Eastern Europe) and
some time ago (I'm 36 now) but do kids nowadays really call their parents
"bitch"? My parents almost never laid their hands on me (the couple of times
they actually did I had deserved it) but, nevertheless, it would have been
out-of-this-world for me or for any other kid to call their parents names like
these. It reminds me of this Eddie Murphy sketch:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldUbxfOtjqw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldUbxfOtjqw)
.

~~~
axtscz
No, I'm 20 and from the US, and never would've dreamed of calling my parents a
word like this. I mean never. We may of had disagreements but this was one
line I would never cross.

~~~
rtpg
Similar experience but I know this exists. Some people going through their
teens get pretty cruel.

Definitely a minority

~~~
Mz
Sometimes, they are "cruel" in response to having been subtly (or not so
subtly) treated cruelly themselves.

~~~
rtpg
Definitely, I didn't mean to discount the agency of the kid. There are many
more abusive households than we'd like to admit.

------
junto
> Tone of voice dictates whether you're going to get compliance or not.
> "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out,
> okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And
> choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important.
> Having real choice is not the issue, humans don't feel too strongly about
> that, but having the feeling that you have a choice makes a difference.

My son has dry skin and has to have a special cream on his face before he goes
to bed - normally when he's tired and terribly uncooperative.

In order to get him to allow us to put the cream on his face, we often just
give him the choice of which side of the face we should start with. I don't
give him the choice to have the cream or not. It works brilliantly. A friend
told us that tip. Awesome.

~~~
prawn
This is also a very effective technique when brushing a toddler's teeth. "Top
or bottom teeth first?"

My other tactics for routines are "Which animal should we brush teeth like
tonight?", "OK, we're going to brush your ears. Teeth!? No. No, maybe your
eyebrows. OK, teeth then." and "Close your eyes and I'll choose your clothes
and get you dressed so it will be a surprise."

~~~
llimllib
With my son, "time for a bath!", no matter how excited, yields crying. "Would
you rather watch trains or buses after your bath?" yields an excited choice.

(As with all parenting advice: usually.)

~~~
prawn
If you want to avoid promising TV/iPad as a reward, good alternatives are:

"If you get in the bath, I'll go and choose a bath toy that you've never even
played with before." (And then I find something random in the kitchen - ladle,
colander, Tupperware, etc.)

or "If you get dressed, I'll tell you something interesting about Mercury."
(Or owls, or bullet trains or anything you can come up with.)

Used the Mercury one with my 4yo, planning to tell him about the massive
valley recently discovered. He shot back immediately "Dad, I already know it's
really hot on one side and cold on the other side!"

If they're out of control and won't listen to reason, I often just talk
somewhat quietly to them about something I know they'll find interesting, and
they usually stop screaming so they can hear what it is.

~~~
GrinningFool
> or "If you get dressed, I'll tell you something interesting about Mercury."

Gonna have to try this one - my son loves collecting facts. Thismay prove very
helpful. Even if it turns out not - thanks for the idea, it's a good one.

~~~
prawn
I like that this tactic is educational and costs nothing, so you don't need to
fall back to a treat. It becomes almost a form of currency within the house.
My daughter is younger so in her case (for incentives or distracting her out
of a tantrum) I'll talk about the neighbour's cat or birds doing things, etc.

------
theli0nheart
> Punishment might make you feel better, but it won’t change the kid’s
> behavior. Instead, he advocates for a radical technique in which parents
> positively reinforce the behavior they do want to see until the negative
> behavior eventually goes away.

We adopted a puppy a little more than a year ago and this was the exact advice
we were given for how to train her. Puppies and little kids are remarkably
similar, and the key to training a dog is not to "punish" them when they do
something wrong (they'll just get scared of you), but rather to reinforce the
good behaviors, reward them when they listen, and essentially just ignore them
when they don't.

In practice, after a year, this technique has worked great. Our puppy listens
to us, respects us, and despite being absolutely crazy, will drop everything
if she hears us call her. We didn't even need to train her to avoid eating the
baby's toys since I think she understood that she received more praise when
playing with "her" toys.

Our baby is only six months old so we'll have to report back in a decade as to
whether this approach works well with kids too. :)

~~~
SiVal
_Punishment might make you feel better, but it won’t change the kid’s
behavior._

This claim (from the article) is nonsense. I've changed the behavior of my
kids countless times with punishment.

I realize that the attitude I am supposed to take is that when someone with
Ivy League credentials espouses a currently fashionable theory that my own
observations contradict, I am supposed to believe the theory and not my own
lying eyes or I'm "anti-intellectual". Credentials over evidence.

I'll take the risk. But I'm still interested in these theories, because I'm
always looking for better ideas to try. A theory that is false overall can
have useful parts. Maybe "punishment won't change behavior; reward will" is
wrong, but some variation such as "lots of reward with a bit of punishment
work much better than lots of punishment with a bit of reward" IS true, or is
true for at least one of my kids. (But then, this weaker claim is something I
already believe and it abandons the "never punish" enlightened part that was
what really made it attractive to The Atlantic.)

Also, theories like these, even if not true, remind me not to overgeneralize
from my own observations.

Their theory: Punishment doesn't change behavior. My observation: Yes, it
does. So my theory: Punishment changes behavior. The truth: No, it doesn't.
(As in, not necessarily) Me: Oops.

So, I'll keep reading and considering, but no, the basic claim of "don't
punish, because it doesn't work" is wrong even if rewards also change
behavior.

~~~
llukas
Punishment always changes behavior only when you're looking/enforcing. You'll
never know if you police kid enough.

Is that your goal?

~~~
SiVal
Replace your first word with "Reward" and re-read it.

My own observation is that both of these claims are partly true but that there
is some effect that remains even when they think they are not observed.
Parents often see what kids think they don't, so I have empirical evidence of
this (as all parents do).

~~~
Malician
I don't buy the idea that punishment and reward are just different sides of
the same coin.

Reward works well for building a healthy rapport and relationship. I don't
think punishment is _entirely_ ineffective, but if it isn't rare and judicious
it may well end up causing more harm than help. The problem is that the
response to punishment is visible immediately while the downsides may only
appear many years later.

~~~
tomp
Rewarding someone when they do what you want is just as sleazy and
manipulative as punishing them when they do what you don't want. It might be
the fact that a child doesn't realize that, but an adult undoubtedly
(eventually) would, and be just as resentful.

------
JonnieCache
While this is framed here as a "radical" technique, it's just BF Skinner's
Operant Conditioning, which has been one of the foundations of behavioral
psychology for nigh on 100 years.

If you're wondering if it really works, yes, it does. One of the key elements
of it, especially when using it on people, is accepting that the subject is
likely to execute the behavior _badly_ for the first few iterations, but you
have to positively reinforce it just the same as if they'd done it perfectly
if you want them to get better. If you can't manage this, and you get angry at
them, you're jeopardising the whole thing.

There's a nice clip from one of Jordan Peterson's lectures here, talking about
these techniques in the context of intimate relationships:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VM1UA0pCMQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VM1UA0pCMQ)

~~~
kem
So... this is one of my pet peeves about developmental psychology.

This "punishment doesn't work" mantra is rampant in the field, and it's
totally unsupported by the scientific evidence.

What _is_ true is that punishment _on its own_ is relatively ineffective, and
that you need to reward desired behavior to shift it from something
undesirable to something desirable.

But if you read the learning literature, it's pretty clear that the most
effective way to change behavior is to punish undesired behavior and reward
desired behavior.

The article is promulgating this ideological distortion of operant
conditioning that's common in developmental psychology.

Maybe there are better or worse ways of implementing punishment, and the best
thing is to combine it with rewards; in fact, sometimes rewards on its own
will work. But the idea that punishment is ineffective is incorrect.

------
gkafkg8y8
What I've learned about parenting:

* Your kids may grow up to act like you, so act in a way that you want your children to emulate.

* Talk to them in a way and have expecations of them that are developmentally appropriate. Use your wisdom and conscience to determine how to do this.

* Expect your children to have certain responsibilties and behave in a certain way, to start working for the familiy or for others when they become old enough (possibly to make their own money), volunteer to help others, and respect their parents, family, others, and themselves.

Beyond that, it just depends on the situation.

I've seen some bad parenting, though. It usually involves anger, psychosis,
manipulation, spoiling, irrationally defending their child, drug use, etc. If
you or your child is the common thread in problems, it's probable that you or
your child are at fault. If you can't handle things, get outside help. And if
your kid is exhibiting bad or dangerous behavior to themselves or others, get
help.

------
JamesHurburgh
I couldn't read more than a paragraph of this article it's so ridiculous. The
idea that positive reinforcement is a radical idea? Ridiculous. The idea that
you can ignore destructive behaviour until it goes away? Ridiculous.

It's about addressing the situation. As a parent the best thing is when I get
to positively reinforce my child's behaviour, because it means I've seen them
do something wonderful. (Helping a sibling, taking initiative, etc.) But if I
didn't stop them when they are throwing toys at their little brother or sister
then we've got bigger problems.

~~~
hajile
That's the core issue. Lots of bad habits don't lend themselves well to only
positive reinforcement because the habit itself provides a positive
reinforcement to the individual. They'll continue to do whatever because it's
fun even if it's self-destructive in the end.

------
biofox
_" Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out,
okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice
isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. Having real
choice is not the issue, humans don't feel too strongly about that, but having
the feeling that you have a choice makes a difference._

This was the main take away for me. It seems like it might be useful for
managing employees / colleagues too.

~~~
jessriedel
I don't understand how people think this is honest. You're clearly using your
cognitive advantage (or in the case of a boss, usually an organizational info
advantage) to trick the other person. I remember as I grew up noticing when
adults were doing this, and I resented them for it. Why would I want my kids
to feel that way about me?

~~~
bmy78
It's not "tricking", unless you're letting your toddler dictate whether you
should leave the house. Toddlers don't have a choice over that; instead,
you're giving the toddler a choice appropriate to their level. That helps
build their cognitive abilities and takes the focus away from whether they
want to leave the house (a choice they shouldn't make), to whether they want
the sweater or coat (a choice reasonable for them).

~~~
jessriedel
You're using a cognitive advantage to distract them from expressing
displeasure about something they reasonably don't like. Just because the
toddler doesn't have a say over whether you're leaving the house doesn't mean
you're not tricking him.

If two people are dating, the boyfriend is well within his rights to
unilaterally break off the relationship. But if he broached the issue with his
girlfriend by saying "Would you rather be just friends or simply not see each
other any more?" in order to distract her from the breakup, she would
rightfully be resentful. (That example is extreme to illustrate the point, but
the idea is the same.)

~~~
Klinky
Are you suggesting 4-year-old children are emotionally mature enough to
properly express their displeasure with something in a productive manner?
Maybe some are, but others are very hair triggered with their emotions and
interpret not getting their way as if they were being murdered. Perhaps
working around these fatal emotion exceptions is better than running into them
every day, at least until the child's brain has had time for a few major
revisions.

In your second paragraph, are you suggesting there is no such thing as an
amicable breakup? One where exes can still be friends? The "I don't have
romantic feelings for you, but would like to remain friends" tactic is quite
popular. Obviously the recipient of that message will interpret it in a
variety of ways depending on their investment in the relationship. If the
person has a negative reaction to it, they likely wouldn't have responded any
better to "I am leaving you, goodbye" either.

~~~
jessriedel
> Perhaps working around these fatal emotion exceptions is better than running
> into them every day, at least until the child's brain has had time for a few
> major revisions.

Perhaps. Parenting is complicated. But we shouldn't pretend it's not a trick,
and that we aren't doing something the child may rightfully resent.

> In your second paragraph, are you suggesting...

No.

> If the person has a negative reaction to it, they likely wouldn't have
> responded any better to "I am leaving you, goodbye" either.

The point of being honest is not necessarily because it secures the best
response.

~~~
Klinky
If the goal of the parent is "get child to grandmas, so I can go to work to
continue to take care of this child", while the child's goal is "I want to
continue to watch cartoons in this very spot and not move, and I'll have a
tantrum if I am told to move due to poor impulse/emotional controls in my
under-developed brain, unless I am 'tricked'", then who's goals are more
important? If the child resents such a "trick" later in life, then the child
is still showing traits of emotional immaturity, and a lack of understanding
on how the world operates.

Also don't put honesty on too high a pedestal. Being honest about every single
thing can have very damaging effects and negative consequences. Having no
social tact so you can ride an honesty high horse is not necessarily superior
to little white lies and/or trickery.

~~~
jessriedel
You are attributing large sweeping claims to me that I'm not making.

~~~
Klinky
To be honest, I am actually not.

------
xbryanx
If you're implementing the 'positive reinforcement over negative' approach
into your life, it's important to trust the large body of research that
demonstrates its effectiveness. Be skeptical of your own internal perception
of its effects. I find that when I'm working to make positive reinforcement
work, the outlier failures stand out so much larger in my mind. I struggle to
understand that it's working in the long run despite my infrequent emotional
reactions of anger, frustration, failure, etc.

There's some fascinating reading on the cognitive biases that are at play here
in Daniel Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow)

------
ivanhoe
This is possibly a good long term approach, but what to do when you need to
put the situation under the control quickly, and kids just don't cooperate? I
had such experience when my 4yo kid was at some point fascinated by kitchen
stove, turning the gas knobs on/off. It's just something that you can't slowly
teach him not to do, you need to draw the line right away, for his own safety.
You can't reason with kid that small, and it's too dangerous to let him learn
the lesson by trying, so you just have to scare him out of it.

~~~
MarkMc
A workmate once told me that he found his young son fiddling with the dials
next to a hot stove. So he took his son's hand and briefly placed it on the
hot part. The son ran away crying but he learned his lesson.

~~~
ohyoutravel
This is what rational me says I should do, because it makes sense. But I can't
imagine my wife understanding, and the questions at pre-school, etc. Assuming
it was a small burn, because that's what would cause a child to cry. Plus I
might hate myself for doing it. It's a short jump from "I touched my son's
hand to the hot stove to teach him it's bad" to CPS knocking on my door.

~~~
mcv
Intentionally burning your kid is not good. Also, you run the risk of teaching
them that it's mom or dad that's dangerous, rather than the stove. If you're
willing to burn them, let them do it to themselves. If not, then teach it
without hurting them.

------
bsder
"No negative reinforcement" is what gives us kids that run screaming around in
restaurants and stores. Sorry, I disagree with an absolute ban.

As a parent, I think that there is something far more important than positive
or negative reinforcement. In my opinion, the fact that the child should
believe at a very deep level that you are far more stubborn than they are is
the single most important thing.

Without that, the child knows they can avoid the consequences altogether.

~~~
desireco42
Yeah, they need to be sure you are crazier then them and you will followup on
most things you promise.

------
ThrustVectoring
How you modify your children's behavior is beside the point, IMO. What's
really important is whether the modification is in the child's best interest,
or merely convenient or beneficial to the parent.

Some folks get it and won't fuck up their kids too badly, even with bad
technique. Others don't and will do lasting harm, even without using abusive
techniques to get compliance.

~~~
jernfrost
Good point. My dad with his behavior might have gotten me and my brother to
behave. But the problem is that it permanently destroyed his relationship with
us and caused issues for us later in life. I do keep in touch with my dad and
care about him but I can never really be close to him because of they way he
has always acted.

I think people have to realize that kids also have to be kids. One can't
expect them to be as quiet and well behaved as grown ups. I am very much
against the popularity of French child raising as it seems to frequently
create subdued children, who can sit quiet at the restaurant but who has lost
the spark.

I remember some fellow Norwegians married into a french family comment on how
when they were at a park the Norwegian kids ran around and had fun and the
French kids looked at dumbfound with: You can do that?! Can we do that as
well?

I assume this is not the average behavior. Or I hope, but I think it gives an
idea of how you don't want your kids to end up.

------
Dagwoodie
This article is dangerous. On the surface it may sound good, but there is
behavior so vile and harmful to the child, family or neighbors that never
showing negative reinforcement is extremely dangerous with some children.

It does have some merits though, showing plenty of positive reinforcement will
likely reduce the amount of negative reinforcement needed.

~~~
calinet6
You don't want _never_ negative, or never stern to put a lighter touch on
it—but many people, probably the audience of this article at large, simply
don't know enough behavior theory to even know of the alternative.

Save the negative reinforcement and punishment for situations where it's
absolutely clear and necessary—that's the best way to keep it an effective
tool anyway. Maybe 60% positive, and 10% negative, with the other part just
not being reinforced (an incredibly powerful behavioral tool all on its own).

It's the same with dogs (not as a derogatory comparison—just the truth of the
science). I negatively reinforce for biting only, and only after they're at an
age where they can comprehend the association between the bite and the
punishment. It's remarkably effective. For nearly everything else, positive
reinforcement is orders of magnitude more effective.

Overall, the most important part is to be a majority positive player, which
makes you an overwhelmingly positive symbol in your child's (or pup's) life.
This has primary effects that far outweigh the alternatives and negative side-
effects of negative punishment and negative reinforcement methods.

I don't agree that the article is dangerous—people are unlikely to give up
negative reinforcement altogether, but being introduced to a wider diversity
of well-proven methods will only help, and we need more of it.

~~~
mabcat
Note that negative reinforcement is reinforcement. It reinforces (i.e.
encourages) a behaviour by stopping something unpleasant. e.g. your kid asks
you nicely to turn off that dad music, you flip the stereo off, your kid feels
better and learns to ask nicely. e.g.2. your kid screams that he hates
carrots, you take the carrots off the plate, your kid feels better and learns
to scream. When you say negative reinforcement you mean punishment.

~~~
calinet6
Correct—I meant Positive Punishment (which is hard to remember, since it's
decidedly not positive in the obvious sense).

------
agarden
I like some of the ideas in this article, but brushing off punishment as
ineffective seems short-sighted.

For parents with kids who end up at a clinic because of problem behavior,
punishment is ineffective. There is a selection bias going on here.
Punishment, as noted in the article, is the first go-to for most parents. In
situations where that works, they don't end up at a clinic for problem
behavior.

If the first go-to for parents were offering shallow choices and rewarding
desirable behavior, clinicians would probably find that problem behavior can't
be solved that way. They might even be finding that the most effective way to
deal with problem behavior is to just punish it immediately and decisively.

In other words, there is a large toolkit to be used to solve behavioral
problems. Different tools work in different situations.

~~~
jernfrost
I agree that punishment sometimes has to be used. But I think the reason why
they emphasized why it didn't work, is because punishment is the go to tool
for parents almost no matter what you tell them. Despite know all this advice
I easily fall into the trap myself, and I see clearly how inefficient it
usually is.

Punishment is often the simple way out when you are too tired to really put
the effort into doing it the proper way. Making sure you observe proper
behavior and complement on that requires more effort. If I got a good amount
of energy I am also usually able to convince my child to go with what I want
them to without shouting, or threaten with punishment. But that often requires
more imagination and when you are tired and worn out, there is no energy left
to be imaginative.

------
Mz
_Choice increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn 't important,
it's the appearance of choice._

Oh, ha ha ha. Maybe for some kids, but not for most high IQ kids. They tend to
not fall for that, recognize they are being gamed and "what's good for the
goose (parent) is good for the gander (offspring)." So let the games begin!
Because they will take that and run with it.

That sort of manipulative crap isn't even good parenting. It's a nice trick
sometimes, but it is often badly misused by parents who have no real
intentions of doing right by their kids and are just trying to figure out
what's most convenient for the parent.

------
tzs
> Punishment might make you feel better, but it won’t change the kid’s
> behavior. Instead, he advocates for a radical technique in which parents
> positively reinforce the behavior they do want to see until the negative
> behavior eventually goes away.

The first sentence as written is incomplete. Of course punishment changes
behavior. This is well established through a long line of experiments going
back to the 1940s or earlier. To complete the sentence, there should be a
"permanently" added to it somewhere, since the association between the
punishment and the behavior wears off over time.

The association between positive reinforcement and behavior also wears off
over time, but that is easy to maintain by occasionally rewarding the good
behavior. You don't have to reward it every time. You might reward frequently
when trying to to teach the good behavior and then you can decrease the
frequency.

I think a good way to think of reward and punishment is that reward encourages
repeating the behavior that is rewarded, whereas punishment encourages not
repeating the behavior that is being punished. When you punish a bad behavior,
that doesn't necessarily lead toward good behavior. It could simply lead to
different bad behavior.

That's not to say that there is no room for punishment of bad behavior.
Rather, it should depend on how bad the behavior is. If the behavior is
something that is very bad, in the sense that it seriously harms people or
animals or causes major economic damage, then punishment might be appropriate.
For instance, if you have a kid who has taken to lighting cats and dogs (or
smaller children) on fire, then severe immediate punishment might be
appropriate, to get that behavior to stop now. That gives you a window until
the association between the bad behavior and the punishment wears off to try
to reward enough good behavior that the kid won't have time to go back to the
bad behavior later.

------
coryfklein
As a parent of 3 boys, something the article doesn't mention is that "time
out" is very often not used as a punishment, but just as a strategy to help
the parent gather their senses.

When you have several kids screaming and breaking things, it's extremely
unlikely you'll have the mental capacity to react in a positive healthy
manner. Separating the children and doing a 5-minute time out gives just
enough time for me to breathe and gather my senses. Then I'm much more likely
to follow up with positive parental strategies.

Usually something like, "Oh you stayed in your room quietly for the whole 5
minutes! Great job, I love you so much. Give me a hug. I'm sorry daddy was so
stressed and we had to do a time out. Why don't we read a book to help us all
feel better?"

That kind of 5-minute break + positive dialog almost always results in a 180
degree change in mood in the house.

------
nitwit005
This sort of thing needs a part 2: "What to do when you child sees through
your tricks".

I'm not joking about that one. It will happen. Even pets figure out some
training techniques, causing them to stop being effective.

~~~
gohrt
Ideally, at that point the child is smart enough that you can reason with
them, and at that point your "tricks" (aka civilized behavior) has made enough
of a molding effect on their personality and relationship with you.

------
carsongross
_It 's thought to be very adaptive from an evolutionary standpoint. If you
have a partner, significant other, or a child, if they do 10 nice things, that
11th one that you didn't like, you're going to really be all over._

One wonders how, if it doesn't work, it was so adaptive.

~~~
bglazer
One perspective on this comes from game theory and the Iterated Prisoner's
Dilemma. In some cases the optimal strategy is "tit-for-tat". If your opponent
defects and sells you out, then the best strategy for the next round is to
retaliate and defect in response. [0]

Obviously this is simplified, but it shows how a mechanism for identifying
opposition could be advantageous. In the social environment of early humans,
maybe this made sense evolutionarily, but is now inconvenient in the different
situations in which most people live now.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma#The_iterate...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma#The_iterated_prisoner.27s_dilemma)

------
Elvie
It's not about punishing, it should be about discipline - discipline comes
from teaching - we should be teaching our children in every situation and not
punishing.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_discipline](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_discipline)
"The word discipline is defined as imparting knowledge and skill, in other
words, to teach"

I have a nearly 5yo and a nearly 2yo and i have to admit it has been tough,
but we have managed without time outs and punishments and spankings

I grew up afraid of "the slipper" and "the wooden spoon" and don't have a good
relationship with my parents and do not want that to my children

we practise time in, instead of time out when you leave the child by
themselves and they don't have the maturity to realise what they have done
wrong, we remove them from the situation and sit with them and explain what
the issue was after they have calmed down - as talking to them mid-tantrum
will not have any effect as they won't be able to process anything we say

------
sciurus
For more information, here is the website for the center run by tge
psychologist being interviewed:
[http://yaleparentingcenter.yale.edu/](http://yaleparentingcenter.yale.edu/)

------
dpandey
The core of the article is hard to disagree with: positive reinforcement is
much more important effective than punishment.

But what if the kid just doesn't want to do what you want to reinforce? Just
repeating your preferred choices aren't going to work. Kids are not stupid:
they can tell that you're just trying to ignore what they want and push your
choices. They'll frequently resist either actively or passively.

My approach to my son is: I praise him when he does something that looks right
to me. When I disagree, I argue and reason with him like an adult. I try to
project him on the receiving end to show how he's being unreasonable.

A large part of it is just understanding the kid's temperament and style of
thinking and finding out effective ways of dealing with it through
experimentation. A lot of empathy. When they see you're trying to understand
their frustration they become more thoughtful.

This article has many good ideas but generalizing them sounds like an immature
approach.

------
anotherhacker
Anyone who writes this kind of stuff needs to disclose that:

1) They are a parent. 2) They have used their suggested technique on their own
children.

------
kriro
Step 0: Always treat your kid like an actual human being (apply Kant).

Step 1: Identify if your kid leans introvert or extrovert (lemon squeeze at a
very young age seems to work but it shouldn't be hard to figure it out with
other methods).

Step 2: Structure the reward structure accordingly. Guess what, some kids want
to go to the zoo and some kids would rather play with Legos by themselves.

Hot fixes like providing choices to give an incentive to go outside seem a bit
broken to me. I'd much rather provide a good reason to go outside (or figure
out that the child actually wants to stay inside and...stay inside).

tl;dr: If in doubt spend more time with the child. I feel very strongly that
as a parent the thing you should optimize for is "will this allow me to spend
more time with the child?" If you are already in a rush in the morning to make
your important meeting there's a fundamental flaw in your approach.

------
employee8000
My youngest is not motivated by rewards or punishment. He just doesn't care.
If I reward him with something good, he will accept it, but the loss of the
reward will not motivate him to do things. Similarly he won't like being
punished but the punishment won't stop him from doing things that he wants to.
His teachers told us the same thing, which creates problems because when he
decides he wants to misbehave, there's nothing that will motivate him to
behave until he chooses to behave.

I don't spank him, but I'll give him timeouts but I've come to terms with the
fact that he is motivated by different things than other kids. The techniques
in the article won't work for my child at all. Hopefully he will mature and we
can reason with him in other ways.

------
andrewclunn
How to get your kids to do the right thing, convince them that it's the right
thing to do. Child too young / stupid to understand moral or ethical
questions? Try not to fuck them up too much while you hope they grow out of
it.

That's what all these things boil down to. I get that a huge part of good
parenting is not letting the, "Why don't you understand?!" frustration get to
you. All this advice comes from a place of not wanting parents to beat their
kids. The experts should perhaps realize that their own conescending,
obviously taken too far advice only serves to make parents not trust them. Of
course seeing that would require that they understand the human psychology
they insist underlies their advice.

------
riffraff
I don't understand: how do you reinforce behaviour that is the default?

Do you tell your kids every minute "I appreciate you didn't break the
window/throw the glass on the floor/pour milk on the carpet/put play-doh in
the washing machine"?

I get that it works for clearly delimited things like "put on your clothes
properly" or "don't make a mess during dinner" but that doesn't cover 90% of
the time that I need to tell my daughter "don't do that" :( .

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Some behaviors - as with throwing toys and pouring out milk - are normal and
will pass. In the meantime, you can do things such as notice when milk is
still in the cup and point out, with a silly voice, that you are pouring the
milk into the cup because milk likes to be inside of things. Just
occasionally, not constantly. Then just remind her when it gets on the floor,
and tell her the negative consequences (as is age appropriate). You can have
her play with play-doh in a safer space and with more oversight - showing her
how to be neat about it while you two play.

------
manarth
So much of this sounds like "control".

    
    
      > "it's BF Skinner's Operant Conditioning"
      > "Choice increases the likelihood of compliance"
      > "There are a whole bunch of things that happen…and you can get the child to comply"
    
    

Most parents would want the best for their child, but there's a massive gulf
between wanting the best for someone, and using psychological tricks to force
them into complying with expectations.

~~~
Retra
"Control" is how you ensure good decisions are being made. You don't get the
best for your child without controlling what they get.

------
simplexion
Why do so many of these child psychologists not have children of their own?

Edit: This is hyperbole. I am talking about this particular child psychologist
not having children. I understand it doesn't mean he might not have a great
understanding of how a child's mind works but it means he has never had the
stress of raising a child and knowing how hard it is to keep your cool with
them. Especially when they are as energetic as my own children.

~~~
kabouseng
This is an incredibly powerful comment, I was just looking to see myself if
this psychologist have children of his own and came to the same conclusion
that he doesn't. The absolute arrogance to not have children of your own but
preach to others how they should raise theirs...

-edit -> and be in your late seventies, having long forgotten what it is to raise kids or see your peers raise their own kids.

------
jernfrost
Many interesting comments here. I think to a large part I came to the
conclusions in this article myself by trial and error. I agree as someone said
here that you have to really become a student of your child. Don't just try
the same old rubbish that doesn't work. Try other approaches and make mental
notes of what works.

I don't naturally get angry, so I simulated anger just to see if it worked. My
experience is that anger and scolding sort of kind of works but is very
inefficient and often has diminishing returns. You reach a point where simply
getting more angry doesn't work. Quite the opposite it just makes things
worse.

I was positively surprised by how much more efficient positive reinforcement
was. Just a little bit could often create a lot bigger change than lots of
screaming and shouting could produce.

The problem is that it is often far more complicated to do. It requires more
thinking, because it is not always obvious what the opposite of the bad
behavior is and when you should praise.

E.g. my second child would go ballistic on the changing table. It became
almost completely impossible to put him there because he had so many negative
associations from being held in place while being changed. I realized I had to
make it into a positive experience. My solution was to bring him there when he
didn't need clothing or diaper changes and only put him there to do fun
things. Gradually I got him to think positively about lying on the changing
table, and then I could actually start praising him for complying with getting
changed. But just realizing I had to take him there to do something entirely
different from what the purpose of the changing table is wasn't obvious to me
at first.

So my advice is, try to figure out how you child thinks. A lot of this comes
down to having empathy with your child and seeing the world from their
perspective. Once you know that you can more effectively employ various best
practices.

~~~
nojvek
> So my advice is, try to figure out how you child thinks. A lot of this comes
> down to having empathy with your child and seeing the world from their
> perspective. Once you know that you can more effectively employ various best
> practices.

Wow, this is very well put.

------
manmal
My fiance recently graduated in psychology, and we have two kids. This article
basically mirrors our current sentiment of how we want to raise our kids.

I have one thing to add: Don't beat yourself up if you fail to do it right.
After things escalated, talk to the kid honestly, tell her what you felt, and
ask her what she felt. And try to do it better the next time over.

~~~
icebraining
What if the kid has no interest in talking to you?

~~~
manmal
Then let her. Would you want to be forced to talk to someone? My benchmark is
"What would I feel if my father did this".

~~~
simplexion
Maybe you should think, "What would I feel if my father did this while I was
screaming at him, throwing objects at him, and hitting him?"

~~~
manmal
Little kids don't grasp a situation that good. If you don't expect them to
have an adult brain, it's a lot easier to deal with them. Your emotions are
generated by what you think is true - if you think that the little brat is
hitting you just for the lulz, then you will get very angry.

------
KaiserPro
This is a yes, but.

You _must_ re-enforce the behaviour you want, however you can't tolerate bad
behaviour.

You are not there to be friends with your kid. If the child has hit you, sit
it in time out.

Why is this good? A) the child learns that it wastes time, and b) it puts
space between you and your child. reduces the chance of antagonising each
over.

On the flipside you must take an interest in your child.

~~~
ktRolster
It sounds like you are giving advice on a technique without actually having
experience with that technique. Maybe you should try the 'no time-out' method
for a while.

------
agentgt
We are about 3-4 days (due the 7th) away from having our first child and this
article is a terrifying reminder of what is to come.

I have a rather good temperament and equanimity (ironic given the above) but
my wife despite being brilliant sadly does not (in all other things she is
superior to me).

Luckily we have a very good behavioral therapist and or already familiar with
the psychology of punishment/reward. That being said my wife's biggest fear is
having a child with the same temperament as she does.

~~~
shoover
Respect the responsibility but don't fear the outcome. These things don't
happen overnight. No matter your kid's temperament or how you do as parents,
it all develops one day at a time over a very long time and you have
essentially infinite opportunities to learn and adjust.

Congrats and enjoy :)

------
guest2143
This book really helped me address problem behavior:

[https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Stories-Challenging-
Behaviour...](https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Stories-Challenging-Behaviour-
Perrow/dp/1903458781)

When you can sing a couple and the kid puts away their shoes, it makes it feel
like magic.

------
sabujp
[https://www.reddit.com/r/LifeProTips/comments/5g9pai/lpt_mot...](https://www.reddit.com/r/LifeProTips/comments/5g9pai/lpt_motivate_people_by_giving_them_choices_even/)

------
hyperpallium
How can this be applied to internet forums?

In the early/ier days of HN, one response to an unsubstantiated comment was
"Can you elaborate?", which shows interest, respect, and gives guidance -
instead of a blind downvote (numerically negative feedback).

------
rm_dash_rf
Have kids. Validate their feelings. Set boundaries. Enforce boundaries. Talk
with your kids. Teach them. Don't try to change them. Embrace them.

Spanking and timeouts are not required for this.

------
sunjain
This was explained very well decades back in "Punished By Rewards" \- one of
the most useful book I've read.

~~~
gohrt
Alfie Kohn's book is about bribes being a bad strategy, not quite about
punishment being a bad strategy.

The two are related, though. The article here is explaining how meaningful,
relationship-building positive-reinforcement is an effective strategy.

Alfie Kohn's work is easy to misinterpret -- the title of his book mentions
"gold stars" as a bad idea, but misses the meaning of a gold star. A gold star
isn't a bribe in the sense of an "incentive program", it's a tangible
expression of appreciation* -- which is what the article here argeus in favor
of.

*as long as the star is its own reward, not some sort of currency used to buy rewards.

------
kstenerud
What this teaches your kid is that there are no consequences to selfishness
and antisocial behavior.

------
balabaster
Having only read part of the article and having gone through toddler years
with 2 kids having ADHD and ODD my only insights are:

Get good at child psychology the art of manipulation. You're a team against
the kids - keep up a united front, regardless of your marital situation. If
you don't learn to manipulate those kids into doing what you want, they will
very quickly learn to manipulate you into doing what they want. If you don't
consistently maintain a united front, they will play one of you off against
the other, every. single. time. and one of you will become the enemy they hate
and the other their best friend. This isn't fair to the parent that ends up
the enemy and is detrimental to their relationship.

Some kids are easy going laid back and compliant. Most of them have their own
free will and will largely do what they want, regardless of what you want them
to. Get used to not having complete control at all times, because if you try
and maintain control at all times, one thing I can guarantee is that your kids
will feel powerless and ultimately begin to despise you.

Give them compassion and understanding and try to give them enough rope to run
without hanging themselves. YouTube has plenty enough videos to scare the crap
out of them from doing stupid shit that will hurt or kill them. It's also got
a great many videos that will inspire and educate them. It's a great tool. Use
it as liberally as you need.

I can count on one hand the number of times my kids have been spanked. They're
now 8 and almost 7. Those spankings yielded almost zero result and reflects
more on my inability to maintain control of myself under the stress they put
me under than their behaviour. All it did was exacerbate already intolerable
behaviour. Did they deserve it? Yes. Did it yield the result I wanted? No.
Should I have held my temper? Probably. The fact that it didn't yield the
result I wanted says it was a futile exercise. It didn't teach them anything,
they didn't respect me for it, they feared me for it. Do I want my kids to
fear me? Absolutely not. Plus, they were some age less than 8 and 6. They're
expected to act out. They're kids. I'm an adult, I should be able to control
myself better - and I largely do.

No amount of framing decisions to stimulate cooperation work. No amount of
forcing them to comply works. Neither one of them seem to have any sense of
guilt unless they think they've really hurt you and you show them real honest
vulnerability... and you can't show that card too often or they'll just think
you're unable to stand up for yourself and then they'll never learn to respect
you.

Okay, so there's not so much advice there. But I'll tell you, every kid is
different. Some tools work on some and have counter effects on others. You
need an arsenal of techniques and you need to pick and choose them for each
situation, like a Marine, you don't take the same tools into every operation,
you pick the best tool in your arsenal to complete your mission.

Sometimes spanking will work on some kids, other times it will just make the
situation ten times worse. Sometimes timeout will work, other times it'll just
drag out the torture for both of you. Sometimes shutting down the argument and
dictating how things are going to happen is the only way. Other times, you
just have to pick your battles and say to yourself - does the outcome of this
situation even really matter? Why do I feel the need to argue and enforce my
will here? If you're worried about how they dress reflects on you, let them
watch shows like "What not to wear" so they learn a sense of style. But
honestly, they're kids, does it really matter? Their friends will tell them if
they look like an idiot. Peer pressure can be a wonderful thing.

Sometimes the easiest path is just relinquishing control of everything
inconsequential and only controlling the things that really matter: Don't let
them hurt or kill themselves or anyone else and don't let them damage or
destroy anything that doesn't belong to them.

~~~
GrinningFool
>> having ADHD and ODD

I strongly suspect that we're looking at the same combination in our son.
Sadly I'm reluctant to take my concerns to a medical professional because ODD
has a strong correlation with abuse. While I've no doubt that some of my and
my wife's parenting has contributed to this, abuse isn't happening -- it's
literally been his personality since he could first talk. Still, it's enough
to make me uncomfortable going into a situation where that's the assumption[1]

Was yours a medical diagnosis - and if so, did you run into any troubles
around that aspect?

> If you're worried about how they dress reflects on you,

This raises an interesting problem though. I find I'm reinforcing societal
norms that aren't consistent with my own - because I'm aware that he has to
function among peers and adults every day in a social environment. Their
reactions to negative behavior aren't enough to prevent him from doing it.

Encouragingly, the couple of situations I've explained that for [in simplified
form] have resulted in major improvement (such as using 'inappropriate'
language - I personally think it's fine if you know the meanings and usage of
the words and when it's ok to use them, regardless of age. After explaining
that other adults and parents didn't view it that way, and that it means they
won't want him playing with their children and will think poorly of us as a
family, that particular problem stopped.)

> Sometimes the easiest path is just relinquishing control of everything
> inconsequential and only controlling the things that really matter: Don't
> let them hurt or kill themselves or anyone else and don't let them damage or
> destroy anything that doesn't belong to them.

This, as a lesson slowly being learned.

~~~
balabaster
With regards to the medical diagnosis - this is the back story, sorry it's a
little long winded:

So our eldest was born with 2 holes in her heart. She is the one suffering
ODD. She was a difficult baby from the very outset, she wouldn't feed and was
in hospital for the first 3 months of her life with her mother living in with
her and me providing relief outside of work so she could get some much needed
rest so it was a round the clock affair for 3 months until she was released
just in time for Christmas. Of course this took a toll on everyone involved.
She went round after round of tests, had a feeding tube and had to be fed
through this every 2 hours, after which she would guarantee to throw up and
need changing and cry the entire time and need to be carried around the halls
of the hospital to attempt to stem the constant crying. While my daughter
won't be able to remember any of this, it would be remiss to assume there was
no psychological trauma left.

Fast forward 4 years and she had to go in for open heart surgery. She was old
enough to understand what was happening and while we were as gentle as we
could be, we couldn't shield her from the truth and we kept up a positive
strength with her to help bolster a confidence in her that we lacked
ourselves. To say this was traumatic is an understatement and I think all of
us share in that trauma - some of which remains to this day. The killer was
when she asked how we could have abandoned her at the hospital to be cut open
like that... if you ever want to feel like you were cut in two and had your
beating heart ripped out of your chest - that was that moment. We were by her
side throughout, but there is trauma that she most definitely needs help with.
In fact, in many ways, I think there is trauma all round that we'd benefit
from help with.

We resisted for ages going for medical diagnosis because we didn't want to be
"those parents" \- you know, the ones that medicate their kids because they
just can't cope with kids being kids. We asked ourselves many times if this
behaviour was just normal kids and that our perspective was just skewed. In
the end we went in to the hospital after our eldest had a throw down tantrum
where she was looking like she was going to cause serious physical damage that
lasted for too long to ignore and we sat down with the psychiatrist and said
to them - we're not looking for medication, we're not looking for her to get a
psychiatrist, we want real honest to God unbiased, objective advice on her
behaviour and if this is normal and our perspective is whacked or if she needs
medical assistance.

We all did questionnaires, her school teachers did questionnaires - we were
very forthright with the teachers and told them what was going on and what we
were experiencing at home and asked them for their input and gave them our
support.

One thing I learned from this is that most teachers won't raise their concerns
with parents because more often than not, parents will come back with the
attitude "that's your job, they're our problem at home, when they're at school
they're your problem" or if the teacher raises the prospect of the fact that
your child may have something that needs to be dealt with professionally,
parents get defensive. Our going to the teachers I think was liberating for
everyone involved - the teachers thanked us for our support and have been
incredibly incredibly supportive with us in return.

Anyway, after a week under observation at the in-patient psychological wing of
the hospital and having in-class support at school, it was determined that our
first does indeed have at least ADHD and suspected ODD.

Is there stigma? Yes. Does it affect how she's treated at school, to an extent
yes, but on the whole the staff have been amazing and collaborative with us.
Building a relationship with them helps a huge amount. Frequently the problem
kids that you hear about being ostracized and mistreated are because the
teachers have little choice but to remove the problem from their class to
spare the rest of their class and that they have absolutely no support from
the parents. Knowing that they have our full support and that we have theirs
has been very reassuring. I know they're both treated like gold at school and
their teachers have nothing but positive things to say about them both which
considering the difficulties we've gone through, I'd say I'm very thankful and
incredibly grateful.

> Their reactions to negative behavior aren't enough to prevent him from doing
> it.

With regards to your point about societal norms - if the negative behaviour
hasn't been enough to prevent him doing it, it doesn't matter to him enough
right now to make him change his belief. Eventually he will either become self
conscious enough to change this, or he'll find a sense of style he enjoys that
will change this, or he won't care and if he doesn't care - does this really
matter? Only he can really answer that.

~~~
GrinningFool
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply.

> f you ever want to feel like you were cut in two and had your beating heart
> ripped out of your chest - that was that moment.

Just reading it and thinking of the situation hurts - I can't quite imagine
living with/through it.

> We asked ourselves many times if this behaviour was just normal kids and
> that our perspective was just skewed.

This, so many times. The frustrating thing is when _describing_ many of the
behaviors, there is nothing on the surface to differentiate it from a kid
being a kid. It's only the continued nature of them over time that raises
concerns with us. We were deterred by our family physician early on when we
first raised these concerns.

We're currently in the process of going through the school's evaluation and
paperwork. I do agree - they were hesitant to ask us to take this route
because of that usual response from parents, and they seemed honestly
surprised when we agreed to do the evaluation. I'm still on the fence around
pulling in medical help, because medicating a six year old isn't on my list of
things to do...

> Does it affect how she's treated at school, to an extent yes, but on the
> whole the staff have been amazing and collaborative with us

That's good to know, though certainly it'll vary by school district. The
school has been very supportive in our discussions so far, and in how they
handle him in class.

Thanks again for taking this time, it's very helpful.

~~~
balabaster
Yeah, I'm still on the fence about medication but I will tell you this for
sure. The medication has made the difference between it being more manageable.
I won't say it cures all the behaviours, but it takes the edge off. When used
with other tools, like learning to discuss and manage her feelings with a
therapist, it's made her temper and behaviour on the whole much more bearable.

------
dang
(Edit: I'm detaching this from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13101402](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13101402)
and marking it off-topic. That example wasn't a clear enough one to make the
point about, because the commenter wasn't being snarky or doing anything
particularly wrong. Maybe next time it comes up more clearly I'll try again.)

I know it's nitpicky, but please don't use quotation marks when you're not
quoting, and especially not when putting words in someone's mouth for
rhetorical effect. (That generally isn't a great thing to do either, but was
harmless in this case because you did it to praise, not denounce.)

We ask this, partly because the internet is stateless and text fragments are
prone to misinterpretation, but also because it's one of those things that
subtly degrade substantive discussion.

~~~
cwp
But... quote marks are grammatically correct. They're the only way to mention
words and phrases you're not actually using them.

Yes, the things we write are subject to misinterpretation, particularly when
stripped of the their context. But asking people to avoid correct use of
punctuation isn't going to make that less likely. Quite the opposite, in fact.

~~~
dang
It looks like what I posted might not have been clear. I mean: please don't
use quotation marks to make it look like you're quoting someone when you're
not really quoting them. In particular, please don't do that thing where
people sarcastically put words in someone's mouth and then add quotation marks
around those words to amplify the rhetorical effect.

Uses of quotation marks for quoting someone, or for doing something that
doesn't look like quoting someone (e.g. "self-referentially") are fine.

~~~
quickConclusion
Interesting, i can see where the risk of confusion is. But wondering how it
could have been written for similar effect...

" For the teens, the psychologist's advice is literally: well, maybe don't be
such a bitch in the first place, Mom. "

Feels a bit confusing. Is there a better way?

~~~
dang
Actually you're making me think that I picked a bad example to plant a flag
on. The general point, about not using quotation marks as a rhetorical device
or snark weapon, is a good one: it really does subtly degrade online
discourse. But the example doesn't show that as clearly as it might, and the
commenter was being a good sport and didn't do anything wrong. Sorry!

~~~
grzm
This type of explanation and review is a great example of why I appreciate the
manner and spirit of moderation on HN.

------
beedogs
Wow. Add The Atlantic to the growing list of sites I'll never visit anymore,
thanks to what must be the world's most obnoxious ad-begging landing/redirect
page I've seen in my entire life. Totally objectionable.

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davedx
Positive reinforcement is hardly "radical".

~~~
manmal
I agree that it shouldn't, but it is. I need only talk to my mother, she has
some very strange ideas of how to raise kids, explaining a lot of my knee-jerk
reactions when communicating with my own kids.

~~~
madgar
My mother told me recently that my six-year-old nephew's personality was
already set in stone, and his occasional bursts of energy were proof he needed
"tough love" and "a wake-up call," including changing schools. She also seems
to have forgotten that my father hit us with his belt. Very strange indeed.

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e-we
What? Would this be news to anyone 2016?

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eltoozero
My Mom "fined" me, taking away or reducing my allowance.

If all the punishments I could have endured, this really worked.

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msimpson
It's kind of ironic that this is the most apt way to train pets, as well.

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johanneskanybal
That this could be considered "controversial" 2016 is just mind blowing to me.

~~~
inimino
You think parenting is a solved problem?

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c3534l
I recall there was a bit of a reaction against the strictness of Victorian
parenting in the 1800s that advocated essentially this. That children are
precious little things who should be allowed freedom and not be punished.
Those kids were known to have serious impulse control issues as adults and
often had difficulty working in structured or formal environments like offices
or courthouses. So it strikes me that if you're never going to give time outs
for uncontrolled and inappropriate or destructive behavior, then you need to
replace it with something significantly more powerful than what is being
offered in the article. I think the psychologist is taking the position that
positive reinforcement is better than negative and taking it to an extreme
that I have a seriously hard time believing will be beneficial to the long-
term mental health of the child.

------
AndrewKemendo
The most successful, caring, well educated and thoughtful people I know came
from the worst upbringings. They grew up in households with abusive parents,
homelessness as a child and general chaos.

At the same time the biggest burnouts, felons, drug-addicts and the like that
I know personally (and in the statistics) came from ... the worst upbringings.
They grew up in households with abusive parents, homelessness as a child and
general chaos.

On the flip side, most of the people I know who were raised in peace, calm,
consistent love, and wealth are generally pretty middling and while they live
a fine life aren't really making huge impacts as I see from group 1 above.
Maybe it's that the story isn't as compelling so we don't read about those as
much. Chalk it up to sampling error.

From a social scientist perspective, group 3 is the ideal upbringing because
it's consistent and the lower bound outcome is generally still desirable.

However there is just something about the ridiculous struggle that seems to
either make diamonds or spent coal. From the perspective of population
distribution for groups 1 and 2 it's overwhelmingly spent coal that comes out,
but that 1% that becomes diamonds are really spectacular.

