
Why Are Finland's Schools Successful? - mebe
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html
======
hugh3
These sorts of articles always smack of cargo cultism. First we say "Holy
crap, country _X_ is doing better than the US in standardized test _Y_!". Then
we pick out all the ways in which country _X_ is different from the US. Then
we throw out the ones which we don't like and assume it _must_ be the other
ones which are responsible. Therefore, if we hold childrens' hands more then
they'll do better in tests and if build a big flat area in the middle of the
jungle and wave sticks in the air then a giant metal bird will land and bring
us cargo.

The answer to the question of how to improve US education is obvious to
everybody... unfortunately the obvious answer always seems to differ depending
on whom you're talking to. Teachers' unions will say that the answer is to pay
more money to teachers. Anti-union activists will say that the answer is to
get rid of teachers' unions. The left will say that we need more
redistributive taxation, while the right will say that we need to implement
market-based reforms to force schools to compete with one another. And racists
will say that it's unavoidable that the US will do worse than European
countries, because the US has so many black people.

Problems are relatively easy to solve when political agendas are involved, but
once you get to the stage where everybody is simultaneously shouting "This new
piece of evidence clearly shows that my political agenda was right all along"
then problems have become completely insoluble.

~~~
pasiaj
You are spot on about the cargo cultism. Ever since the first great PISA-
scores, we've been getting hoards of visitors from all over the world, trying
to understand what makes our system good.

The problem is, even our own politicians aren't really able to comprehend the
reasons. Most politicians aren't able to look at the Finnish system in a way
that would question their own political views, so all the statements
concerning what makes the Finnish system good are just the same old talking
points, with cherry picked details from our system to fit them.

~~~
eru
Perhaps it would be more instructive to look at how countries improved (or
failed to improve) their PISA score than at how good countries do it?

~~~
stdbrouw
Or, as the story suggests, think about why the PISA scores are so important to
us when there are many other ways to "grade" educational systems.

------
Benjo
_It’s almost unheard of for a child to show up hungry or homeless._

I don't see how this author can fail to make any mention of the vastly
different demographics in Finland as compared to the US. Certainly the US
system has problems, but acting like the solutions are so easy doesn't help
anyone.

Finland has one of the most even wealth distributions in the world. The
education problem in the US, as far as I can tell, is mostly in the lower
class. So the larger the middle class, the smaller the problem.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_distributi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_distribution_of_wealth)

Am I missing something?

~~~
shaggyfrog
I just happen to have watched the documentary mentioned in the article
(Waiting For Superman) a couple of nights ago. It found that children from the
middle class are just as effected. The issue boils down to the pervasiveness
of bad teachers in the system, and an inability to get rid of those teachers
and reward/promote good teachers.

~~~
lbarrow
Waiting For Superman is right-wing propaganda. Here's a really good NYRB
article that explains exactly how distorted that movie is.
[http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-
ch...](http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-charter-
schools/)

Also, Finnish schools are entirely unionized.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_finland> Ctrl-F "union"

~~~
shaggyfrog
I don't want to get into the "right-wing" side of things, as that's overly
political. Let's focus on the assertions of the documentary instead.

One of them suggested that tenure is very easy to get. In the article you
posted, "tenure" appears exactly twice, neither time doing anything to dispel
that notion. Furthermore, the byzantine and kafkaesque "due process" to
eliminate bad teachers has been in the news quite a bit the last few years; I
had heard of the NYC Rubber Room long before I saw Waiting For Superman.

Perhaps instead of downvoting my comment and appealing to a political agenda
-- I have none, and ironically, most of my family are teachers -- it would be
more instructive to discuss the actual issues at hand.

~~~
yardie
W4S is an extremely insidious hitpiece on teachers and unions and was
universally criticized by most teachers. Like any documentary with an agenda
it extrapolates a few datapoints and says, "look, here is your problem, just
get rid of items 1, 2, 3 and everything will work".

The kafkaesque dismissal process you allude to is the same in most union jobs.
1: written warning, 2: written warning with training, 3: teacher review board.
That's it. The administrator knows this and the teachers know this so I don't
see how it is kafkaesque in the slightest. The only way to shortcut that is if
the teacher did something illegal like sleep with the students or possess
child porn.

I also read the piece on the Rubber Room and the reason why the teachers were
there was because the administrators were too lazy to actually start the
dismissal process. From the same NYT article I read that some teachers should
have been fired but hadn't and others shouldn't be there at all but butted
heads with the administrators. They were put there because there was a
procedure in place but no one wanted to follow it.

You work at a large enough company you'll get an employee manual on ways you
can be fired and the procedure in place to do so. That is what wasn't
happening in the Rubber Room case.

------
tokenadult
From the interesting submitted article: "Teachers in Finland spend fewer hours
at school each day and spend less time in classrooms than American teachers.
Teachers use the extra time to build curriculums and assess their students.
Children spend far more time playing outside, even in the depths of winter.
Homework is minimal. Compulsory schooling does not begin until age 7."

The bit about teachers having time to prepare their lessons is one of the key
observations of east Asian schools too.

[http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Gap-Schools-Japanese-
Educatio...](http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Gap-Schools-Japanese-
Education/dp/0671880764)

<http://www.tc.columbia.edu/lessonstudy/lessonstudy.html>

Schools in east Asia have similar staffing ratios (teachers per enrolled
pupil) to schools in the United States, but they have MUCH larger class sizes,
with teachers having work periods during the day when they review and prepare
lessons with colleagues. That makes the teachers more effective, per teacher,
and helps the teachers cope with the larger class sizes, because they teach
more engaging lessons. When I lived in Taiwan a decade ago, I had a chance to
see in a bookstore some Chinese-language books used by teachers to prepare
mathematics lessons. They are unlike ANYTHING available in English, much
richer in mathematical content and much more filled with sound, practice-based
pedagogical tips than comparable books published in the United States.

Because American schools don't try very hard to engage in best practice in
teacher coordination for good lesson preparation, and because many United
States school textbooks, especially in mathematics, are just plain lousy, I'm
able to make a living as a teacher of supplemental mathematics lessons for
children who are already attending their free public schools during other days
of the week. In this regard, I'd be happy if the system here changed in a way
that put me out of my current job.

Another key fact from farther along in the submitted article: "Applicants
began flooding teaching programs, not because the salaries were so high but
because autonomy and respect made the job attractive." That explains exactly
why I teach in the private sector rather than in the government-operated
schools of the United States, which hobble the best teachers and coddle the
worst in their employ.

~~~
rdouble
American schools not only "don't try very hard to engage in best practice,"
that sort of thing is often explicitly forbidden. My cousins are teachers in
Americorps and preparing their own lesson plans or using outside materials are
not allowed under their employment contracts.

~~~
Jtsummers
How old are your cousins? Americorps seems to recruit (only recruits?) twenty-
something, recent college grads. The people I know who've gone to work for
them were certainly in that age group. Other teachers I know (15+ years of
teaching) seem to have a fair amount of freedom in their lesson plans and
materials so I wonder if this is an issue with Americorps, younger teachers,
or perhaps I've just known some fortunate teachers.

~~~
thomaslangston
Confirming this. The experience of a Americorps recruit is barely comparable
to the average experience of a professional teacher. Americorps recruits are
sent to the worse schools, partly because those schools cannot afford more
professional teachers.

~~~
Duff
"Worse" translates to "urban" or "rural" schools.

Think about what that means. (Hint: It's not a money issue)

~~~
hugh3
That black people _and_ white people are stupid? I'm really not sure what
forbidden truth you're supposed to be getting at here.

~~~
forkandwait
The forbidden truth is about _poor_ people ("rural"=white and poor, "urban" =
black and poor.)

------
Ironballs
I do not know if it was mentioned in the article as I did not read it fully,
I'm Finnish and am sort of tired of reading or hearing about this particular
subject, but it is worth mentioning that all Finnish teachers are required to
have a Master's degree to qualify as teachers (even kindergarten ones). Since
higher education is free (there are no private universities in Finland), the
threshold to study to become a teacher is very small, and usually there is
quite a surplus of teachers in popular fields, in hard sciences as an example.

Those that select a teaching curriculum in the university spend 1-2 years
interning in schools during their studies. Most people end up taking up
teaching curricula just because it is a sure way of getting employment
especially if one is studying a field in which employment is scarce outside of
academia, say, philosophy.

I myself am studying computer science and I plan to enroll in a teaching
curriculum should life in academia turn out to be boring, mostly because a)
teaching is fun b) it pays relatively well c) a three month paid vacation from
June to the end of August is a plus and d) it is a respected profession.

~~~
mpk
> [..] it is a sure way of getting employment especially if one is studying a
> field in which employment is scarce outside of academia, say, philosophy.

Just a random observation, but having philosophers with an educational
background teaching kindergarten is probably not such a bad thing.

------
chrismealy
Finnish teachers make 100% of the national average for their level of
education, compared to something like 60-65% for American teachers.

~~~
qq66
That's true but it's not the only problem. Teaching in America is not a high-
status profession the way it is in other countries, so people who are capable
tend to choose other professions. We need a new cultural value on teaching.

~~~
mentat
Some assertions w/o citation:

That's partially because many parents see school as free childcare and don't
understand the value of education themselves. This in turn is because parents
are (in general) spending more time away from their children trying to "make
ends meet" which itself has to do with consumer culture and living beyond
means. It's a complex problem.

------
billswift
Because they are full of Finns.

[http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2010/12/pisa_scores_sho...](http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2010/12/pisa_scores_sho.php)

~~~
hugh3
Wow, if those numbers are true then it sure falls into the "uncomfortable
truths" category:

'''

* Asian Americans outscored every Asian country, and lost out only to the city of Shanghai, China’s financial capital.

* White Americans students outperformed the national average in every one of the 37 historically white countries tested, except Finland (which is, perhaps not coincidentally, an immigration restrictionist nation where whites make up about 99 percent of the population).

* Hispanic Americans beat all eight Latin American countries.

* African Americans would likely have outscored any sub-Saharan country, if any had bothered to compete.

'''

scuze me, I couldn't figure out how to italicise something when it contained
asterisky bullet points.

~~~
teyc
The article specifically mentions how immigrants are helped in Finland.

~~~
tsotha
Yes, but there aren't enough of them to affect the statistics. Here's the
ethnic breakdown of Finland as of 2006:

    
    
      Finn 93.4%
      Swede 5.6%
      Russian 0.5%
      Estonian 0.3%
      Roma (Gypsy) 0.1%
      Sami 0.1% (2006)
    

Finns and Swedes make up 99% of the population. The first group that
historically has trouble in school, the Roma, makes up a whopping 0.1% of the
population. If schools can work anywhere, it's Finland.

~~~
teyc
Thank you.

------
godarderik
"All children—clever or less so—were to be taught in the same classrooms, with
lots of special teacher help available to make sure no child really would be
left behind."

I imagine this would be very frustrating for a child who is considered
"clever". By lumping everyone together in the same classroom, the kids who are
ahead of the others could quickly grow bored and lose interest. I live in
America, and I know that I was bored as hell until 6th grade, where classes
started to be filtered based on abilities. While this article focuses on
standardized test scores for all students, I would be interested to see data
on "gifted" education in Finland using this one-size fits all approach.

------
wisty
Another article (<http://finnish-and-pisa.blogspot.com/>, submitted -
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2918684>) suggests Finish-Ugric languages
give Finnish and Estonian schools an edge in PISA results (and education in
general).

The writing is regular, and vocabulary very simple - think "tear sacs" instead
of whatever Latin / Greek / German / French derived term you use in English.

I like their right-wing teaching system, which seems to follow the stuff
that's got some empirical backing (DI, mastery learning, no retention, etc),
but there are other factors.

~~~
CaptainZapp

      I like their right-wing teaching system
    

Sorry, but what has the Finnish teaching system to do with right-wing?

------
djb_hackernews
Of course it's easier to teach a smaller homogenous group than a large diverse
group.

Doesn't make sense to try to find a one size fits all solution for a problem
with a multitude of unique aspects: culture, race, language, income, etc.

In Finland on the other hand it does, because they are all the same
culturally, racially, economically and speak the same language.

------
skrebbel
I can't wait for Finns to pop in here to tell us about the dark sides of this
success. There must be some. For one, there's a tax rate that would make most
Americans, and even most Europeans, choke on their latte.

I'm not sure that's bad, but this article seems to neglect to mention that
nothing comes for free. This isn't just "doing it smarter", it's also
investing a massive chunk of money.

Additionally, I honestly doubt it's sustainable. The example of the Kosovar
kid with a language delay is telling: this will only work if there's only a
few such kids in the school at once. With immigration to Finland strongly
increasing over the past 5 years, the problem may at some point be more
difficult to tackle the "traditional way" when, at least in certain cities and
suburbs, half the classroom has trouble with the language. I don't think
there's an easy solution to this.

~~~
nosse
a Finn popping up here.

I study at Aalto university, my mom is a teacher and I have thought this stuff
a lot.

Dark side of success... What success? Given six million people, who all are
smart as hell when 15 year olds, you could assume that there would be at least
one university in Finland that would be in the group of 30 best universities
in the world. Well, our best is Tampereen teknillinen yliopisto at rank 151.
Switzerland has Universite de geneve at 33 while Sweden has Karolinska
Institut at 51 <http://www.4icu.org/top200/>

I have heard that Finland has quite cheap engineers when compared
internationally, but you can hardly speak of very high class upper education.

Teaching in Finland is far from perfect. I think these scores have a lot to do
with language. As Finnish is written phonetically, average child knows how to
read and write after first grade. It would be more fair to compare Finnish 13
year old with English speaking 15 year old.

~~~
Vargas
Couldn't agree more! English bizantine writing system is a major drag. Sadly a
spelling reform doesn't seem possible at the moment.

