
China’s all-seeing surveillance network - playpause
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-18/china-social-credit-a-model-citizen-in-a-digital-dictatorship/10200278
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maxxxxx
Stuff like this will slowly stop further evolution of society and lock down
the status quo. Right now we still have ways to change society peacefully but
in a surveillance state either nothing changes or change has to come with
force.

I think societies with massive surveillance will stagnate until they collapse.

~~~
facialwipe
Or more frightening, the Communist experiment is successful long-term and
becomes the dominate model for 'stability' globally.

~~~
d4nt
At first I was terrified of this, in the short term this could cause a lot of
suffering but I’ve become convinced it will fail in the long term.

Human societies have evolved a very sophisticated mechanism for moving people
up and down hierarchies using a distributed reputation tracking system. This
system is interesting in that they’re trying to centralise the reputation
tracking system and thereby control it.

To the extent that it replicates what people, on average, think about you I
think it’ll work. But planned economies loose to unplanned ones because
distributed decision making outperforms centralised decision making.
Eventually this system will be misused, make bad decisions, or get
ridiculously complex. Then people will loose faith in it. When that happens
there’s very little China’s government can actually do to control 1.4 billion
people. (That’s not to say that there their remaining options aren’t very
worrying though, e.g. tanks)

~~~
maxxxxx
With enough computing power and ruthlessness it may actually be possible to
control 1.4 billions. I don't know how things would have worked out if Hitler
or Stalin had had current or soon to be technology. Thank God North Korea
doesn't have the money to buy or develop the latest surveillance tech either.
They may have succeeded for much longer. In the end I think dictatorships will
always blow up but tech makes their life much easier.

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yurie_breschnef
I think this is a horrible idea.

Just imagine how many times we have been wrong in our judgement of the
behaviour of citizens. What would the social credit score of Ghandi or Martin
Luther Kind have been, at the time of their prominent actions?

We have proven time and time again that there is no sure way to judge how
"social and acceptable" something is, and the value of a behaviour to our
society.

What is seen as "unsocial" today may be applauded by historians in the future.

~~~
FundThrowaway
I'm pretty sure that's half of the point, stop any radicals from forming large
followings.

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mtgx
Where radical means those that those the people in power in any way.

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adam-a
It's an interesting article but it is also worth remembering that western
society is not all that far away from this vision. Credit scores are widely
used, there are apps for them, they can prevent you from getting housing or
loans. A criminal record likewise affects your employment prospects, and many
other areas of your life. CCTV may be widespread in China but the USA and UK
are still way out in front[0]. Lastly, for the suppression of the guy who
uncovered party corruption, just look at the treatment of Snowden or many
other whistle blowers.

0 - [https://www.statista.com/statistics/484956/number-of-
surveil...](https://www.statista.com/statistics/484956/number-of-surveillance-
cameras-per-thousand-people-by-country/)

~~~
vthallam
stop this "what about the western world". I see this pattern every time
there's a critical article about China. When there's an article about the
west's censorship, we would be happy to talk about it, but for now, let's
focus on the ridiculous and crazy to be put it mildly things going on in
China.

~~~
qubax
Why? We are not chinese. We don't live in china. I'm more worried about
censorship in the US and especially europe since europeans seem so intent on
bringing their censorship to the US and the entire world. At least the chinese
censorship affects their country mostly.

> I see this pattern every time there's a critical article about China.

Because we get the same story about china multiple times in a day.

Just from "abc.net.au" within the past 19 hours. The same story has been
pushed onto the frontpage.

"China’s all-seeing surveillance network"

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18030655](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18030655)

"China is building a digital dictatorship to exert control over its 1.4B
citizens"

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18026060](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18026060)

I'd called this propaganda rather than news.

> let's focus on the ridiculous and crazy to be put it mildly things going on
> in China.

Why? If china wanted to export their dictatorship to the US, I can see why we
should be concerned. But they aren't. It's primarily europe and segments of
puritanical leftists and rightist in the US along with parts of the tech
leadership.

It's fine to have a story about china once in a while, but multiple times
daily just reeks of propaganda.

~~~
pas
China is already exporting its dictatorship (influence = power), look at their
One Belt One Road project, and the predatory loans to African states.

And don't forget the clashes and island building on the South China Sea.

~~~
adam-a
It remains to be seen whether the OBOR loans are predatory or not. Most of the
projects are still underway at this point.

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yurie_breschnef
I sometimes feel like currency is a primitive preliminary to this social
points system.

People who show unusual or controversial behaviour (be it political or social)
will soon loose sources of income and thereby social status.

People who stick to the accepted norms and ethics and do not act up will on
average have the chance to move up the ladder and earn more money and
prestige.

The analogy is not perfect, of course, but money has similar effects on our
society.

~~~
d4nt
It’s similar, but in capitalist systems all get a weighted vote on how many
points you get. (Either by buying your time/products or if I’m your boss I can
promote/fire you). By the look of it, the Chinese system gives complete
control to the government. So it’s analogous to a fully planned economy.

~~~
yurie_breschnef
I agree with your point.

I am sometimes baffled when people seem to think that the amount of money that
is payed for a certain job is proportional to how beneficial that job or
service is to the society. I mean, there are Bankers who make good money
screwing everybody over. Yet somehow people seem to look up to them.

I'd like to think that there might be improvements in how we value/pay
services. But letting the government decide that is also quite foolish.

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EZ-E
The article confuses the Sesame score (credit score computed by Alibaba to be
used within their app) and the social score (government project which isn't
really deployed yet but intended to rely on multiple private sources like
Alibaba's sesame score)

In the 2018 state of things, the social credit score is not (yet) as invasive
as the article suggests. AFAIK it does not change according to your purchases,
daily habits or online comments unless you get arrested. For now it mostly is
influenced by credit repayments, debt and previous condamnations. I lived
there 3 years and my "sesame score" as displayed on Alipay is still the
default one.

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yesenadam
Better title - _Social credit: China 's digital dictatorship_

Pretty horrifying story, sounds like Black Mirror.

~~~
bopbop
Yeah, the title is awful - I was happier with the article then I thought I'd
be, as it did go in to some of the negative points. To point to any atomic
automatic judgment of ones citizens based on their beliefs as a good thing is
a bit of a weird view, however. The examples they give are all terrifying.

It's also not great that the lady they report as pro social credit is only
revealed later on in the piece as being married to a high ranking party
member. She's introduced as "a marketing professional" when I'd argue the most
relevant facts towards her support/non-support of such a system would be that
she is married to "a civil servant in the justice department, a loyal cadre to
the party."

The article makes several strange emotional appeals regarding her, actually.
For instance, I'm glad she "married for love", but I don't see why it would be
relevant to the issue at hand unless it was an attempt to further humanize her
and, by extension, this new Permanent Spotlight system.

~~~
clouddrover
> _I 'm glad she "married for love", but I don't see why it would be relevant_

They're just making the point that she didn't marry him for his social credit
score, even though he happens to have a high score under the system.

To quote the article immediately prior to that section:

 _" Who your friends and family are will affect your score. If your best
friend or your dad says something negative about the government, you’ll lose
points too. Who you date and ultimately partner with will also affect social
credit."_

It seems like your social credit score is positioned as your key to happiness.
Better not get a bad one or associate with anyone who did. Better not wreck
your child's future by saying something bad about the government.

~~~
bopbop
_> They're just making the point that she didn't marry him for his social
credit score, even though he happens to have a high score under the system._

Yes, that makes sense. I still hold that the deliberate omission of her party
relationship until later in the article is to initially position her as a
third party positive voice who happens to support the system.

And yes, the network affects are particularly awful.

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PythonicAlpha
Thoughtcrime at its best.

The system wants to prevent the masses from thinking a different way, as the
official way is.

This is 1984 and even better. By giving "credits" (gamification) the people
are like the frog in the boiling water. When they recognize it, it is to late.

Is this the natural development of social media: Who does not conform to the
masses, will be spit out by society?

Many dictators try to get their nations "in line" by using such tactics. "We
are all one people -- we act as one people".

Is social media and gamification the solution for the wildest dreams of
dictators?

Individualism must and will be killed in such a system. Only one Individuum
can exist in the long run: The queen/king of the bee colony.

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gdsdfe
Ironically Dandan is probably flagged now for agreeing to be part of this
article ...

~~~
bopbop
I'd imagine given her husband is a Chinese civil servant, this is either with
approval or she has been asked to do it.

There's no way a marketing consultant and a civil servant don't understand the
potential ramifications of being part of the article!

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kevcampb
Future job role: Sesame Credit Optimisation (SCO)

There's going to be so many ways to game this system when it gains wider
adoption, it's going to be insane.

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TheSpiceIsLife
> Every step she takes, every one of her actions big or small — _even what she
> thinks_ — can be tracked and judged. [emphasis added]

Can anybody shed upon how these Social Credit systems would be able to track
what a person _thinks_?

~~~
hnzix
Facial expression recognition. I was talking with one big data analysis vendor
who claimed they installed expression recognition software outside toilet
stalls in the Dubai airport. If you exited the khazi with a disgusted
expression, the system would recognize it and dispatch a cleanup crew.

They also claimed they could detect if students were bored in class and feed
this info back to the teacher. Up next: thoughtcrime.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
I wouldn’t have lumped expression recognition with what one is thinking.

It’s feasible that a person could leave a toilet with a displeased expression
while pondering some peculiar nuance of some specific domain of knowledge.

But maybe in this context you’re right, the article meant to refer to
expression recognition.

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sigsergv
This system is similar to ones already operating in MMORPG. And I'm sure that
system in China is being exploited already. Finally only exploiters will get
all the benefits leaving regular people far behind.

~~~
ffwacom
I'd say your actions as a citizen would only net you -100 to +100 points. If
you really wanted the 'heaven on earth' they promise you would need a friend
in government to give you the ol communist loyal bonus of +500, or loyal party
member bonus of +1000 purchasable from your local party rep for only 5,000,000
RMB.

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rubinelli
I expect those that defend the system see its appeal as a more rational
alternative to guanxi, the informal networks of trust and reciprocal
obligation that pervade Chinese society. Do you want a loan, or need a good
hospital for your parent? You don't need to bribe or schmooze with the right
person, only to be an orderly, hard-working citizen.

On the other hand, you're trusting your score to "the algorythm", and any SEO
consultant can tell you how brutally flawed and unfair "the algorythm" can be,
even without overt malicious intent.

~~~
argc_argv
with enough guanxi you will be able to change your score accordingly, so this
credit system is solidifying the status quo

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ffwacom
So much for chinese dominance as a superpower, they are really shooting
themselves in the foot with even trying this.

~~~
js8
Note that Soviet Union remained superpower for some 70 years after it shot
itself to the foot with Ukraine famine. While I agree ultimately this will
fail to produce a competitive society, it might take a long time before people
will be able to change the things for the better.

~~~
ffwacom
Accurate, but that's 70 years of social development they'll miss out on. In
the meantime the west will continue its shitshow into some undetermined
darwinistic future, as it has always been. Things are speeding up so we both
know it won't be 70 years, the social score thing is just an
expression/attempt at central control, wich has never worked. Economy and
social values as a chaotic system, predicting the future, etc.

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modzu
the irony here is that the premise might not even be true -- does social
credit really provide the "control" or "stability" it aims to achieve? who is
writing the algorithm that says "napkins" credit your social score while
alcohol debits it? compare financial scores which are not perfect either but
they are based on models that have some science behind them. what model
underwrites the social credit system? is it valid? it's scary to think that it
could be arbitrary

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stunt
Don't blame China. It is pretty much the same in many countries.

With a few exceptions in Europe, some sort of extreme surveillance state
already exist in every country that can afford it.

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crispyambulance
Obviously the camera system can track humans walking around, but does it
actually identify specific individuals?

What does that number in the box with the chinese text mean?

Are they able to use facial recognition _everywhere_ and thus record where
everyone is or, more importantly, was?

I am skeptical that this can pulled off with current technology?

Can it?

~~~
Maakuth
You could fuse the facial recognition data to phone radio base station
tracking, bluetooth beacons and such to get multiple points of reference for
verification. And tracking between workplaces, apartment buildings and
transport turnstiles where you scan your personal ID.

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teekert
So, does anybody know how far off this is? Is this real within 2 years?

~~~
perilunar
The article says there's pilot programs already happening, and it will be full
operation by 2020, so yes, it's real.

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Numberwang
I think the concept of social credit has a lot of merits. But the risk for
overreach is substantial unfortunately.

I'd love to get rid of people who are unable to ride a train like a social
human from the trains and lock people out of cinemas who can't behave as one
should expect.

~~~
infiniteseeker
And I’d love to give people who have similar views to you (on this matter) a
-1 score for life. Who’s right?

~~~
Numberwang
Well the rules should be known just as laws are, not a personal opinion by Mr
Inifinitypants.

