
Is Cultural Appropriation Always Wrong? - dnetesn
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/magazine/is-cultural-appropriation-always-wrong.html?_r=1
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forgottenpass
The concept of "Cultural Appropriation" (and the desire to avoid it) strikes
me as something created out of benevolent racism that promotes cultural
segregation.

I understand not wanting to step on toes and put salt in old wounds, but
telling me I can't (metaphorically) walk around other neighborhoods out of
respect seems a bit much. Something has gone awfully wrong to get to this
point and playing along instead of unwinding the stack is misguided.

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gizmo686
I think I might be mis-reading your comment but, to me, "cultural
appropriation" sounds like a re-branding of integration. If would follow from
this view that arguing against cultural appropriation is arguing for
segregation.

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forgottenpass
I made a poor choice of words, as realize I could be conveying the the
opposite of what I meant. I've re-written the line to better present that my
thought that the drive to avoid cultural appropriation can look a lot like
cultural segregation.

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djtriptych
This is a false dichotomy.

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strangecasts
I was disappointed that the article seemed to enforce this dichotomy as well,
by bringing up the possibility of _asking_ the people in question:

> _But it has never been easier to proceed with good faith and Google, to seek
> out and respect context[...]_

and then seemingly striking it down with the Shamsie essay:

> _The moment you say, a male American writer can’t write about a female
> Pakistani, you are saying, Don’t tell those stories._

but leaving out the part immediately preceding the quote:

> _But it should be clear that the response to this is for writers to write
> differently, to write better, to critique the power structures rather than
> propping them up, to move beyond stereotype—which you need to do for purely
> technical reasons, because the novel doesn’t much like stereotypes._

which doesn't at _all_ preclude discussion.

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civilian
Cultural appropriation is a bunch of SJW & white-guilt bullshit. It's not
wrong or an act of an oppressor, it's just how cultures collide. And there's
nothing wrong with that.

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djtriptych
Totally bro

~~~
civilian
I'm open to having a real conversation about this. Persuade me otherwise!

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tunesmith
I think the difference between true appropriation and cultural borrowing is
the level of inherent abuse - whether purposeful or not. And then it's more a
matter of degree than black/white.

So, wearing a native american headdress as a fashion accessory is more
probably wrong; wearing cornrows as a fashion choice is not really all that
wrong (at least, I haven't heard of cornrows being an actual cultural symbol,
I just always thought it was a hairstyle); and a more recent example, yuppies
drinking out of mason jars is very probably not a "wrong" appropriation of
"poor" culture.

The level of abuse can definitely be ignorant rather than purposeful - for
instance, there might be good points about why a white person wearing cornrows
might actually be wrong.

The baldest examples of wrong appropriation have been the attempts to take
meaningful cultural symbols and then deliberately pervert their meaning as a
weapon. Possible examples are the pagan symbols of christmas, or the swastika
- although it's unclear to me whether the nazi appropriation of that was a
direct purposeful attack on the meaning of the eastern symbol.

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civilian
Rich people drinking out of mason jars isn't cultural appropriation of poor
class! IDK about your family, but my family is wealthier because we have a
long habit of being frugal. There's no need to buy something new if you can
use goo-be-gone on the leftover salsa jars. Fuck!

~~~
djtriptych
It's an absurd statement: "My family is wealthier because we have a habit of
being frugal". How do you know poor people aren't frugal, let alone that they
are _historically_ not frugal?

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civilian
Right, I meant it as clarification for how my family got wealth, not as a
reason why poor families are poor. "Civilian's family became wealthy because
we had good jobs and were frugal with our money. As oppose to other families,
who started a massively successful business."

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Nadya
The idea of cultural appropriation inevitably leads to racism by those who try
to enforce some sort of moral code against it. If you don't _look_ like most
people of your culture - you're suddenly a racist. Even when you're just
practicing _your own culture_.

Anyone remember the story of the half-white, half-Japanese woman who was
derided for culturally appropriating the Japanese because she, ethnically,
looked closer to Caucasian/white than Japanese? I especially loved the part
where the overly aggressive PC hate mob apologized to her. Except the apology
never happened. Instead, they doubled down on her being in the wrong...

Increasingly, _learning_ about a culture is becoming "cultural appropriation"
to the PC extremists. Identity politics, of all forms, is a disease - from
what I have seen it has only ever lead to negativity and conflict.

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lwhalen
To co-opt and mimic is completely normal human behavior that cuts across all
cultures, nations, sub-groups, etc. The article even acknowledges this right
up front, "It’s a truth only selectively acknowledged that all cultures are
mongrel". The premise smells like just another manifestation of outrage-
culture to drive clicks. Don't let your humanity be redirected into anger,
downvotes, etc.

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djtriptych
Violent overthrow of other people can also be described as "normal human
behavior" as is polyamory, and hunting and gathering. Is it ideal behavior? Is
it civil?

Your sense of smell smells like another manifestation of privilege. Don't
allow yourself to believe you do not operate from a position of extreme
privilege. Be human, but not delusional.

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venomsnake
The fact that GP operates from a position of extreme privilege, doesn't mean
that what he says is not true or invalid.

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djtriptych
To the question of whether something is wrong, it being "normal human
behavior" is not an argument for or against.

Normal doesn't mean fair or right or harmless or good. That's what the article
is about.

So why did he say it?

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venomsnake
Fair is meaningless in context of culture exchange. So is right. Harmless - in
the majority of the cases it is. So is with good.

A person whining against somebody using "his" culture, blindly ignores the
fact that "his" culture is crossbreed that is constantly changing and
evolving.

~~~
djtriptych
Should we all pretend that "fair is meaningless in context of culture
exchange" is a reasonable thing to say now?

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eduardoveiga
There's no such thing as cultural appropriation.It's a nazi leftist concept.

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venomsnake
I prefer the opposite approach - culture appropriation is fine and should be
proven otherwise on case by case basis. Makes life more simple.

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djtriptych
More simple for whom? Those who'd rather not think about it?

This perspective likely varies widely based on the culture with which you
identify. Some cultures have been explicitly exploited, generally along the
same axes of privilege in modern life.

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venomsnake
> More simple for whom? Those who'd rather not think about it?

For the people that know that you cannot own a culture and there is no central
authority which to determine how it can be used.

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djtriptych
Your position requires exactly zero definable instances of negative cultural
appropriation. Can you really defend that position? Can you defend the Nazi's
co-opting the swastika, for instance? Can you explain why cultural
appropriation tends to be directed along privilege vectors? Male-female / gay-
straight / white-black / rich-poor / etc.

No. Simpler (for you) not to consider these things :)

Cultural interchange is inevitable yes, but is its effect on the human
condition negligible? No. So why not talk about it.

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venomsnake
Of course I can defend the Nazi swastika - it looked badass and it was easily
recognized. When you go to war having a badass easily identified symbol on
your flags is efficient and boost morale.

Also they didn't appropriate it because it was fucking Germanic to begin with.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fylfot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fylfot)

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djtriptych
badass, easily recognized. These are subjective terms. YOU think the swastika
is badass. YOU find it to be an "easily-recognizable" symbol (at the time of
it's introduction).

You can't prove things like that, so why do you believe this stuff? Why do you
present it as fact?

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Nadya
_> These are subjective terms._

So? All culture is subjective. What is offensive in one culture can have a
completely different meaning in other cultures [0]. Cultures are the result of
human opinions and by definition that makes them subjective.

Human interpretation of actions, symbols, words, or what have you that defines
is a culture is the direct result of a group of peoples' collective _opinions_
given to those actions, symbols, words, or what have you. Cultural
appropriation is taking something away from a culture and trying to give it a
new meaning, particularly with a meaning that the original group dislikes.

Which is little more than "Our opinion on this thing came before your opinion.
You're being rude by ignoring our opinion on this thing and we don't like
that."

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#As_an_insult](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#As_an_insult)

