

The story of the invention that could revolutionize batteries - ernestipark
http://qz.com/433131/the-story-of-the-invention-that-could-revolutionize-batteries-and-maybe-american-manufacturing-as-well/

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msandford
Manufacturing and innovation are tightly linked for sure. GE found this out by
accident and they've started bringing jobs back to the US. A lot of that had
to do with the rise in wages in China and the rise in fuel prices, I'm sure.
But they also found they saved cost by having a multidisciplinary team
redesign an appliance in just a few weeks.

[http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/12/the-
inso...](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/12/the-insourcing-
boom/309166/)

I'm glad to see that there's one more example of actually knowing how stuff
works makes everything better.

~~~
pjungwir
This is one of the points made repeatedly in the book _Skunk Works_ by Ben
Rich: the engineers works side-by-side with the folks building the parts, and
have some manufacturing knowledge themselves. The Skunk Works fusion project
that was here the other day made passing mention of that approach too.

~~~
msandford
That was a great book! I read it when I was in high school. Seems like I
should probably read it again.

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1053r
"Manufacturers are secretive, but analysts say a lithium-ion battery pack
costs an average of roughly $500 per kilowatt-hour"

This can not be true. Tesla will sell a 10kWhr pack for $3500 retail, which is
$350.

Nissan will sell me a replacement 24kWhr pack for my LEAF for $5500, or $229.
Are they losing money on it? Maybe, but I doubt they are losing THAT much.

~~~
titanomachy
$500/kWH could still be an average cost. Most lithium battery packs are much
smaller than Tesla's (think mobile phones) and are probably much more
expensive to manufacture on a per kilowatt-hour basis.

~~~
greglindahl
Which kind of average? Tesla manufactures a majority of car batteries -- by
capacity, not by count. It's not interesting to conflate mobile phone
batteries with car batteries. The article is clearly talking about cars.

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passive
Maybe it should be expected from any article claiming a revolution, but the
first 15% or so seems nothing but strawmen placement.

The most egregious one is the entire base of the article, that we aren't
making significant progress in making batteries cheap enough. While I would
certainly love to see more progress, this is utter nonsense.

According to [http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/08/40-drop-in-ev-battery-
pr...](http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/08/40-drop-in-ev-battery-prices-
from-2010-to-2012/), EV batteries were over $1000/kwh in 2010, and then ~$650
in 2012. According to links in other comments, it's now near $300. This lines
up with a fairly consistent drop in price of 22.5% every year.

So what does this revolution consist of?

30% cheaper batteries in two years when it's available, on top of existing
progress. So not bad, but also not particularly revolutionary.

The other irritating strawman relates to the second point of the article. The
suggestion that product improvements these days are always based on innovation
in the product itself, rather than how it is manufactured.

Apple's entire product line at this point is reliant on manufacturing
innovation. No other company can produce such impressive pieces of technology
at those prices. They do many other things right, but their position at the
top is based on manufacturing more than anything.

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nakedrobot2
It seems like there is some revolutionary battery discovery every week. But we
are stuck with nearly the same battery capacities as we were ten or fifteen
years ago. It's frustrating. Meanwhile our phone battery life seems to get
worse and worse every year.

~~~
afarrell
Hypothesis: there has been a modest genuine increase in the amount of research
being invested into batteries and there has been a great increase in the hype
tendency of battery discoveries.

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Animats
Unlike most battery articles, this one is credible. It's about the guy who did
A123, which made a very good lithium battery (one that doesn't have thermal
runaway and doesn't catch fire), but couldn't do it economically.

~~~
thescriptkiddie
A123 makes some of the best and cheapest cells on the market. They're
immensely popular in the DIY EV community because they get you more ranger per
dollar than anything else you can source in small quantities.

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Osiris30
Yet-Ming Chiang and his tussle with the father of li-ion batteries John
Goodenough was already covered in Feb -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9003729](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9003729)

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agumonkey
Funny Elon Musk wasn't involved in this, it seems very similar to the approach
followed by SpaceX, away with legacy to minimize everything. Considering most
his business are involved into energy.

ps: the Sony anecdote was priceless. Haa.. Sony. So many times.

