
Suicide increasing among American workers - anigbrowl
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2018/p1115-Suicide-american-workers.html
======
prawn
I know we're collectively no fans of anecdata but I get a strong feeling that
attitudes to typical work are changing, that jobs are making more people
miserable. I get asked a lot by people seeking to do something different; I
guess they're bombarded by successful side hustle stories and never by "I love
my 9-5 day job, it's so rewarding" stories.

~~~
diogenescynic
>I know we're collectively no fans of anecdata but I get a strong feeling that
attitudes to typical work are changing, that jobs are making more people
miserable

I tend to agree. My parents have completely different stories about their
experiences with work 40 years ago. Much less stress, better pay, more
mentorship, less competition, and lower demands generally. I’m sure part of
that’s nostalgia, but nearly everyone I talk to seems to be miserable at their
job anymore. There are rarely people who say they enjoy their job and want to
do that exact thing until they retire.

~~~
hopefulengineer
Older family friend made $30/hr in the 60-70s with pension and benefits
working in a meat packing plant with a high school education. Same job today
pays $15/hr with no benefits thanks to illegal immigration. There's a reason
people like the Koch brothers spend millions in support of illegal
immigration, they wanted to drive down the labor cost for jobs like the above.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0)

Offshoring and illegal immigration has killed low skill jobs and given billion
dollar multinational corporations the ability to demand whatever they want
from workers because they have unlimited labor supply.

This doesn't just effect low skill labor either, it forces more people to go
to college and take on debt which then drives down the wages of high skill
work as well. It's a scam and the american people should be angry

~~~
octonion
The root cause is the destruction of unions and worker's rights. It has
nothing to do with legal or illegal immigration.

~~~
pike1
For a limited number of positions, if you have a bigger pool of people to hire
from, the wages will automatically go down. This is simple economics.

While the union effect might also be playing a role, it's curious that you
rush to deny the big obvious factor while propping up a relatively minor
reasoning factor as a primary one.

~~~
codyb
Probably because it seems doubtful that ten million people (the estimated
number of illegal aliens in the US), tanked wages for everyone in a country of
330 million.

It's curious you immediately point to illegal immigration as the big obvious
factor with no citations to support your claims.

The fact is wages have been stagnating since the seventies and most people
attribute that to the weakening of unions, offshoring, and automation before
illegal immigration.

The US is producing twice as much today as it was in 1984 with a third less
workers. That seems like it'd have a much bigger impact to me. And painting
immigrants as the reason American's qualities of life has dropped off seems
disingenuous, simplistic, and prejudiced.

------
hellbanner
Gee, I wonder if this has anything to do with the pay discrepancy between
CEOs, investors and us wage slaves.

~~~
manfredo
Interestingly the states with the lowest suicide rates (Connecticut,
Massachusetts, California, New York, and other relatively wealthy blue states)
also have some of the highest income inequality [1]. Another counterintuitive
thing about suicide in the US is that demographics that tend to earn less
(e.g. young people, Blacks) tens to commit suicide at lower rates than wealthy
demographics (Whites, Asians, older people).

Pointing to income inequality as cause of a high suicide rate does not seem
particularly convincing.

1\. [https://www.zippia.com/advice/states-highest-lowest-
income-i...](https://www.zippia.com/advice/states-highest-lowest-income-
inequality/)

~~~
jamescostian
If the point you're trying to make is that suicide isn't correlated with low
income, you shouldn't look at broad demographics, you should look for studies
about suicide that focus on financial status. Like this study, which found
that low income was correlated with high suicides on a group of a million
people after adjusting for other factors:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5463019/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5463019/)

~~~
winibe4r
Low income is not inequality. Also, if you even bother to look at your google
search result, it says "socioeconomic positions" proxied by insurance premium.

~~~
jamescostian
> Low income is not inequality

I never said the word inequality, and I don't understand why you're bringing
it up in a discussion about suicide risk factors.

> if you even bother to look ... proxied by insurance premium

I did look, and that's why I saw this:

"Medicaid recipients had the highest suicide hazard ratio (2.28; 95% CI,
1.87–2.77)."

Medicaid is about low income or low assets

~~~
tathougies
> I never said the word inequality, and I don't understand why you're bringing
> it up in a discussion about suicide risk factors.

Then why did you respond to a comment that mentioned inequality to begin with.

~~~
jamescostian
Why did I respond to a comment that drew conclusions using the wrong
statistics? It's pretty simple. I was teaching someone a small lesson about
drawing conclusions from the wrong statistics, and backing myself up with a
link to a study to show them what statistics you should use to draw such
conclusions. As the HN Guidelines say, "Eschew flamebait [...] unless you have
something genuinely new to say" \- I don't have anything genuinely new to say
about inequality and suicide, and I don't see you or the other person who
responded to me saying anything genuinely new either.

Also "Please don't use Hacker News primarily for political or ideological
battle" \- please stop making my comment (about drawing conclusions from the
wrong dataset) about your own political interests, unless you have something
genuinely new to say, in which case I'm all ears.

------
millenialdev
Whoa, Men kill themselves many times more than women. I thought this number
would be closer.

~~~
goldfeld
It's simple, generally it's more common in men that they don't ask for help,
don't reconcile with their own true feelings, don't allow for their own full
self expression, don't hug, don't cry, don't share emotions with naked
confidentiality, and macho culture preys on any signs of weakness, to their
own detriment. This carries on to the kinds of hobbies, interests and all that
puts men further away from a simple emotional comfort than women. It took me
two decades before it didn't feel awkward hugging my brother in earnest, and I
consider myself a very sensitive person, so take that for what you will. Maybe
it just takes longer for boys to become emotionally mature men. It varies
culturally a lot for men and women by city and country, of course.

~~~
thwy12321
This isn't why. This is what feminism tells men, that their problems stem from
them not being able to handle and process their emotions correctly. That's
propaganda. The real reason is more along of the lines of their being less of
a safety net for men, less people willing to give them the benefit of the
doubt, and no attraction from women for men in the bottom 10%.

~~~
krapp
>This is what feminism tells men, that their problems stem from them not being
able to handle and process their emotions correctly.

What "feminism" would probably say is that masculine culture doesn't allow men
to display emotions as openly as women, especially when those emotions betray
a sense of physical or emotional vulnerability.

The common term for this is "toxic masculinity," which is often confused by
persons like yourself to mean that masculinity itself is toxic, whereas it
really means that masculinity _can be_ toxic, and can manifest in negative
ways, such as an inability to express one's emotions for fear of being seen as
weak, effeminate or possibly gay.

This isn't propaganda, it's an obvious and self-evident sociological and
cultural phenomenon, a flaw in society, not in men themselves.

>and no attraction from women for men in the bottom 10%.

Oh. I see you've fallen down the rabbithole.

It's unfortunate that the lunatic fringe of redpillers and incels seem to
taken over and undermined any legitimate credibility the mens' rights movement
might have. Women aren't evil, and feminists aren't entirely wrong, and no,
aren't driving men to mass suicide because they don't find them attractive.

~~~
fromthestart
>>The common term for this is "toxic masculinity," which is often confused by
persons like yourself to mean that masculinity itself is toxic, whereas it
really means that masculinity can be toxic, and can manifest in negative ways

And what modern feminists like yourself struggle with is that men are inately
predisposed more toward certain personality traits than women. You want to
talk about obviousness and self evidence? Look at evolutionary pressure. Look
at our closest related primates (and most mammals) and how much more agressive
males tend to be, and how with, for example, gorillas, few males will mate
with many females, while less dominant males go mateless. Yet you do not even
consider the possibility that humans are hard wired towards certain average
behaviors, that men are almost certainly predisposed towards agression, that
females may very well be attracted to dominance (hell, it's all over our
culture if you look with an open mind).

Instead, you deny biology, hand waving away all discrepancies and differences
with words like "toxic masculinity" and "patriarchy." You deny the pain and
loneliness that unnatractive men experience daily because of factors beyond
their control - height, build, facial structure, social difficulty.

You cannot fix society by ignoring biology, and you are only alienating these
men, who are human beings like you and me, by slandering them as incels for
having the same desires for companionship and affirmation unfulfilled while
simultaneously blaming them for the problems in society.

Pride, agression, drives for achievement and competition, these natural,
"toxic" masculine traits BUILT the modern world. Yes, there was plenty of bad
along the way, but one cannot ignore all of the good that has resulted from
these drives, and in truth, modern society cannot exist without them. Nor
should it.

~~~
krapp
>And what modern feminists like yourself struggle with is that men are inately
predisposed more toward certain personality traits than women.

Yes, but what traits society allows men to express while still being
considered "proper men" differs depending on culture, and mediates whatever
biological imperatives might exist. Ancient cultures considered sex between
men to be a perfectly reasonable thing for a masculine man to do, since the
concepts of "hetero" and "homo" sexuality didn't really exist at the time. Men
in Elizabethan times were far more free to express emotions than now -
consider that many of Shakespeare's sonnets, including the famous Sonnet 18
("Shall I compare thee to a summer's day...") were addressed _to a man._

>Yet you do not even consider the possibility that humans are hard wired
towards certain average behaviors, that men are almost certainly predisposed
towards agression, that females may very well be attracted to dominance (hell,
it's all over our culture if you look with an open mind).

Also, innate predisposition doesn't justify all expressions of those
dispositions. One may say that men are predisposed towards physical aggression
due to their increased musculature relative to women and testosterone, but
that doesn't mean every act of violence is healthy. Females may be attracted
to dominance, but that doesn't mean all means of dominating women are
justifiable.

We may be apes, but that doesn't mean we get to rape any female we find
attractive and murder the offspring of rival males because, you know, we're
trying to have a civilization here.

>You deny the pain and loneliness that unnatractive men experience daily
because of factors beyond their control - height, build, facial structure,
social difficulty.

Plenty of unattractive, facially asymmetrical and socially awkward men are
able to meet with women, date, have sex, all over the world, every day.
Believe me, if women didn't have low standards in that regard, our species
would probably have died out long ago.

>Pride, agression, drives for achievement and competition, these natural,
"toxic" masculine traits BUILT the modern world.

You see... I literally said that wasn't what "toxic masculinity" meant and
that people automatically confuse the term for an attack on masculinity
itself... you literally _quoted the part of my comment where I said that and
then you went and did exactly that._

At least _try_ to approach this on an intellectual level and not be so
triggered by feminist jargon.

~~~
shard972
> At least try to approach this on an intellectual level and not be so
> triggered by feminist jargon.

Maybe this is why men don't feel like speaking up so often. If you can't fully
conceptualise every concept thought up by feminist sociologists then your just
not "on our level" and "so triggered".

~~~
krapp
>If you can't fully conceptualise every concept thought up by feminist
sociologists then your just not "on our level" and "so triggered".

The concept that masculinity can have negative effects while not itself being
negative isn't something that should take a great deal of effort to
comprehend. There are entire _male created_ social complexes like "gentlemanly
behavior" and "chivalry" built around the pretense that inherent male traits
have both positive and negative aspects.

The problem here is not that "feminist sociologists" are talking down to men
and making them quail in fear -- men have no problems whatsoever speaking
their mind in regards to criticising women or feminism. The problem is that
men who oppose feminism often don't even bother to approach its concepts on
their own terms at all. The feminism they oppose mostly doesn't even exist, or
at best they're attacking the fringe and not the mainstream.

If you have a problem with the concept of toxic masculinity, for example, all
I and the "feminist sociological agenda" (or whatever) ask is that you bother
to find out what the term actually refers to. Cribbing from Wikipedia:

    
    
        stereotypically masculine gender roles that restrict the kinds of emotions 
        allowable for boys and men to express, including social expectations that 
        men seek to be dominant (the "alpha male") and limit their emotional range
        primarily to expressions of anger.
    

...that's not an attack on men, masculinity in general or on any healthy
masculine traits.

~~~
belorn
Toxic masculinity get judged based on the meaning it express as words.
Languages in the end is all about expressing meaning.

If we talk about toxic Muslims, we could define it to only be about terrorists
or other narrow defined subgroup of criminals, but if you use those words then
the meaning being expressed is a generalization that invoke a expression of
racisms and hate. Lumping together all Muslims, only to then say "technically,
I only meant this small subgroup" don't work. Does not work for racism, and it
does not work for sexism either. The term toxic masculinity will always seem
like veiled hatred against men, and no amount of "wait, I only mean ..." will
change that.

------
rhacker
Yesterday we found out we're not having sex.

Today we find out suicide is increasing.

I wonder if the two are linked.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
Probably, and I can make an educated guess how: modern society eschews the
value of human relationships in favor of status and wealth seeking.

People find they are not happy, so they search for a path to happiness and our
culture tells them that it is through being wealthy, famous, and successful.
They search for a path to those things and find that it often involves long
hours, greed, and psychopathic behavior. Human relationships are a risk, and
risks are to be minimized. They put this knowledge into practice and find that
it doesn't work.

My own theory of how depression works is that it involves an inescapable
realization that your model of reality is broken and can't be used to make
predictions that allow you to effect the change you want to see in your life.
You wanted to be happy, society gave you a bad model to work from, and the
mind's reaction to discovering that this model doesn't work is depression.

~~~
rv-de
Where does the sex come in?

~~~
prawn
Part of (some) human relationships. Being ignored at the expense of working
towards success or building a brand towards status.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
It's worse than that, it's active avoidance of human relationships because
they're a liability. Not just because they create dependencies but because in
order to form connections we need to make ourselves vulnerable.

------
hour_glass
How are they making these categories of workers?

> Farmers, Ranchers, and Other Occupational Managers category (a sub-group of
> the Management major group)

> Agricultural Workers category (a sub-group of the Farming, Fishing, and
> Forestry major group)

Farmers aren't in the Farming major group? I'd like to see a little more
detail here

~~~
nperez
Farm workers are classified as agricultural workers. farm managers / owners
are classified separately.

There was a whole redacted study because of managers being accidentally lumped
in with workers.

[https://newfoodeconomy.org/farmer-suicide-crisis-cdc-
study/](https://newfoodeconomy.org/farmer-suicide-crisis-cdc-study/)

------
olivermarks
The Arts, Design, Entertainment, Sports, and Media group features for both men
and women. I wonder if 'hustle culture' has anything to do with this...
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18381605](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18381605)

Separately this is a huge HR problem that just isn't addressed properly in the
USA. If the suicides are due to work pressures that employer has a direct
responsibility for that situation.

Echoing what others have said here, if you are contemplating suicide talk to
people about it. Don't suffer in isolation. Get out of your bubble of despair
and try to see your life in perspective - get help that's what we are all here
for, each other...

------
jrowley
Quick PSA: If you are contemplating suicide you should reach out to
professionals for help. You are not alone in this struggle and deserve to be
happy and live a fruitful life. What do you have to lose by talking with a
professional?

~~~
dokem
Why can't suicide be noble? Why can't we respect a decision to not participate
in this experience that none of us asked for in the first place? Why is the
answer more pills or shrink sessions just to keep on to the next day? Please
tell me one actual down side of suicide for suffering person. It's selfishness
ultimately; we want them to stick around for us, not for them.

~~~
wyldfire
I suppose I could respect it, but many survivors of suicide attempts decide
not to repeat their attempts. IMO this suggests that some of them believe that
they might be better off alive.

~~~
b_tterc_p
To be fair, this is survivor bias in the purest sense. There is an elegance in
respecting one's choice, but most suicidal people are instead in need of
sincere help and understanding, the ideal policy is likely to assume it would
be regretted in the scheme of possible futures.

------
marmot777
I’d like to mention as someone who’s mother committed suicide when I was a
young child that if you choose to take your life you’re harming your family
and friends In ways they’ll never fully recover from. So I request people
think about that before making a decision to go through with commmiting
suicide.

------
zanybear
There is an interesting discussion on this topic in the last Sam Harris
podcast, based on established connection between depression and suicide and
the current political context in US.
[https://samharris.org/podcasts/142-addiction-depression-
mean...](https://samharris.org/podcasts/142-addiction-depression-meaningful-
life/)

------
hollaur
They should do a study on suicide among all workers who are forced to use
Slack. #notkidding

------
tathougies
Lack of religion: [https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/atheism-has-a-
suicide-p...](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/atheism-has-a-suicide-
problem_us_5a2a902ee4b022ec613b812b)

~~~
kasperni
Seriously, that article is a joke...

    
    
      You get three atheists in a room together and it won’t be
      long before there is some minor issue that divides them.

