
Don’t Lie On Your Resume, But Lie Like Hell During Your Exit Interview - robbiea
http://robbieabed.com/dont-lie-on-your-resume-but-lie-like-hell-during-your-exit-interview/
======
kevingadd
I'm always honest in my exit interviews, and I've had quite a few of them.
I've yet to have this result in "burning bridges", despite often having harsh
things to say (I was leaving, after all) - and in a couple cases so far I've
been asked to come back to help solve tough problems (often some of the ones I
mentioned in my exit interview).

Of course, I don't have a particularly large sample here: just three
companies. If I had followed the advice in this article, however, I'd never
know what might have happened if I had actually spoken my mind, and I think
that's a tremendous waste. If you've already taken the initiative to leave a
job, why let yourself be so paralyzed by fear that you won't speak your mind
in the exit interview, the interview set up by the company to attempt to
capture the reasons for your departure?

I don't believe in corporate loyalty, and I don't believe that you owe a
former employer much, but I'll say this: If you want to be viewed with any
integrity, and as a person of merit and a person that your coworkers - and
even your former employer - would consider worth maintaining a relationship
with in the future, you owe it to them to be honest in an exit interview. This
doesn't mean you should take it as an opportunity to vent and say horrible
things just because you can, but you should be honest. If they opt not to act
on your feedback, that's their fault, not yours, but if you fail to give them
actionable feedback that's _your fault_.

~~~
robbiea
Great comment kevin, I'm the original OP.

I value being viewed as someone with integrity. If I'm using this exit
interview as a chance to be honest with them for the first time, then it's my
fault. By the time I made it to the exit interview, everyone in the room knows
100% why I am leaving. I have already tried to change the situation, and it
didn't work.

If a girl asked you if she was fat (and she was) are you going to tell her
that she is fat? Or are you going to lie? Everyone in the room knows that
she's fat. No, you're not. You're not going to ruin her day. That's how I view
an exit interview. We all know the truth and If you're going to make me say it
on record on my way out, the message will make it back to management and I
will look bad.

I guess this post makes me look like a miserable POS, but it's really the
opposite. I've had great experiences working for great companies. At a recent
job at Big4 firm, the CEO of the firm sent out my resignation letter to the
entire company because of how great it was. It was a positive email, with no
negatives. There was some constructive criticism (very, very minor criticism),
but it didn't make it to my good bye letter or exit interview. I kept it
positive and in the end it worked out great.

~~~
Xurinos
_If a girl asked you if she was fat (and she was) are you going to tell her
that she is fat?_

An old coworker of mine had some fun advice... He said if his wife asked if
some outfit made her look fat, and it did, then he would say so. He would tell
her what he didn't like. As a result, he doesn't have a fat wife with ugly
clothing (and he retains a wife).

I value an honest relationship, not one covered in cute little "white" lies.
People who deal with me come to understand that. For them, it must be
refreshing to not have to question my motivations, to wonder if I really mean
what I say. And if I care about them, I am surely doing them more good by
answering honestly.

Never confuse honesty with poor delivery. "Heck yeah, you look like a fat,
sweaty, slobbering pig." The right words depend on your relationship. You can
be sensitive to that person's needs and answer the question they really asked.

So perhaps that was a poor analogy. With regards to the exit interview, I
think there is something to be said for focusing on the positive and trying to
keep the emotions in check while presenting more objective responses.

~~~
kamjam
If think I am with robbiea on this one, if you get to the point where you are
at an exit interview then management _should_ already know why you are
leaving, if they don't then that's _your_ fault for not making your
grieviences be heard. It should be at this point you leave they have not been
able to rectify the situation.

 _An old coworker of mine had some fun advice... He said if his wife asked if
some outfit made her look fat, and it did, then he would say so. He would tell
her what he didn't like. As a result, he doesn't have a fat wife with ugly
clothing (and he retains a wife)._

An honest relationship would be where the truths have been told all along.
Telling your wife she looks fat as you walk out the door is not gonna give her
enough time to try and make a change.

I personally think it is important to remember to be professional. Keep
emotions in check because it can be far to easy to vent and say how much of an
asshole everyone is.

That said, sometimes a place will piss you off that much that you just don't
care. I worked at a place like this once and now look back at it as a learning
experience. I am much much more picky and inquisitive about the job, role,
tools, machinery, atmosphere etc before I even consider accepting an offer.

------
m104
The crux of this is a simple question: if the company is really interested in
honest, constructive, confidential, consequence-free criticism, why only ask
the ex-employees?

Companies that really do value honest, constructive, confidential,
consequence-free criticism (the best kind in some cases) will value that
feedback _most_ from their current employees. But, in doing so, eliminate the
need for the soon ex-employees to feel the need to dump reality on management.

~~~
lusr
I left my first employer after 2.5 years because I didn't like their direction
and I didn't like what they were paying me. Everybody there knew I speak my
mind - loudly. And I spoke my mind at my exit interview - in a constructive
way, sure, but real content.

Why? Not because I thought anything would change (it didn't - it got worse and
most of my friends have now left too). I did it _because_ I knew what I said
would get out, and I _knew_ when I ran into my past colleagues in the future
(it's a small industry) that they'd have good laugh about it all and only have
respect for me for sticking to my principles and never backing down.

All the best people I've worked with have been straight-shooters and I admire
that and look for it in the people I interview. Every position I've ever taken
on has been through word of mouth, _including_ that position. You can use this
knowledge to your advantage. I think this blog post is overly conservative.

~~~
m104
I totally agree. There's major street cred to be gained from speaking truth to
power. But, as the article points out, there are consequences also.

I think the blog article is trying to tell newer/naive employees that, when
asked by a soon-to-be former employer to provide an honest exit interview, the
whole premise is a charade. How we handle that charade is still up to us,
though.

------
javajosh
Some bridges need to be burned. There is this sickness in business that is a
kind of pervasive dishonesty. Apart from just being _wrong_ in a moral sense,
this is also counter-productive: it ruins the utility of reputation.

That said, I'd recommend simply refusing the exit interview. That's 20 minutes
you're better spending elsewhere.

~~~
aangjie
> There is this sickness in business that is a kind of pervasive dishonesty.

I believe it is also called 'business correctness'. It's like a lifestyle
disease. Not exactly a killer on its own, but inviting all sorts of other
troubles into work and business. Anyway, am not convinced refusing is in any
sense productive/curative of the disease. May be if you refuse and then write
a blog about it, but that would be major war and might cause career suicide.
So i would rather give feedback and level of politeness, well that's a
personal choice.

~~~
javajosh
_> Anyway, am not convinced refusing is in any sense productive/curative of
the disease._

Refusing doesn't cure anything, but it highlights the silliness of the exit
interview, and adds 20 minutes to your life. You are right that sharing your
honest opinion with others (which seems to happen over beer, more often than
not) is far more curative. Not participating is more like an act of passive
resistance protesting the hypocrisy of it.

------
rondon1
I plan on using the same worthsmithing they used during the last layoffs.
"This is a great place to work, but due to circumstances out of my control I
unfortunately have to realign and focus my goals towards other opportunites"

~~~
tutufan
Good one!

------
ChuckMcM
Always good advice. Dan Warmenhoven (CEO of Netapp where I worked at the time)
told me that you can't change a company by leaving it. This is so true. Pretty
much nothing you say in an exit interview will achieve any positive good, its
like taking relationship advice from your soon to be ex-spouse.

~~~
slurgfest
What reason would there ever be to attend an exit interview at all, if it is
forbidden to say anything you think?

~~~
illuminate
Who said they exist for your benefit?

~~~
mikeash
The fact that people go to them when they could instead _not_ go to them
implies some kind of reason to go.

~~~
potatolicious
Or that people are easily convinced that silly rituals are mandatory when they
in fact are not.

Note that HR never asks _if_ you'd like to have an exit interview, and just
ask you _when_ you'd like to have it, as if it's already a foregone
conclusion. This same trick works a lot more than you'd expect in real life.
Stating something as a foregone conclusion and redirecting the line of
questioning is a pretty sweet strategy for getting what you want.

~~~
mikeash
Well, that would be a reason. Not a very good one. The whole point of asking,
I think, is to see whether there's actually a good one, or whether people just
go for the reasons you describe.

------
jordo37
I disagree. If you are leaving and if you care at all about the place I don't
think you will burn bridges by being honest. Maybe my experience has been
different, I have never left a job because of an asshole boss but more
freqeuntly because either a) the environment was off or b) I had a better
offer somewhere else. In those situations, the exit interview is built to
catch exactly those sorts of issues.

I am still friends with my colleagues and my boss at my last job, but I told
them in the interview a long list of tweaks to expectations, assignments etc
if they wanted to keep folks like me around.

~~~
mizhi
That is a far-cry from the behavior this article (and the Forbes one) is
cautioning against. You sound like you didn't burn bridges and you provided
your critiques in a professional manner.

That's different than using the exit interview as the opportunity to let out
all your frustrations and to "get back" at the company.

~~~
dgreensp
The article's advice is specifically "be nice" and hold your tongue, which is
silly. Say whatever you want. Obviously calling people assholes is
unproductive whether it goes into a sealed file or to the company mailing
list.

For example, say, "I'm tired of filling out TPS reports and I felt underpaid."
No can argue with your emotions, and it's not like your aversion to
unnecessary paperwork or need for a decent salary will get out and kill your
career. If enough employees leave for precisely these reasons, that may
eventually cause change.

~~~
robbiea
| If enough employees leave for precisely these reasons, that may eventually
cause change.

What i'm saying is that it usually doesn't. Usually the feedback that you give
is already known. The good companies would have changed it before the company
left. Especially if it's a huge known problem.

~~~
jlarocco
I don't see why you wouldn't tell them anyway. At the very least they'll know
it's a big enough issue that people will quit over it.

If you're not going to answer their questions about why you're leaving you
might as well save everybody's time and skip the exit interview.

~~~
robbiea
I would have already spoken up about it and made it aware. I wouldn't wait
until the absolute end to provide the feedback.

------
klez
When I was handed my exit survey at my former workplace I didn't lie. I just
omitted.

I omitted how repetitive and useless was the work.

I omitted how micromanagement was killing the spirits of the employees.

I omitted how many growth promises they made me were still unattained.

But I did underline some positive aspects of the workplace: the cafeteria and
the bar.

What I mean is, there's no reason to lie. Maybe just omitting stuff and praise
useless perks would suffice.

~~~
robbiea
Yes, very good points. But I would say that omitting is the same thing as
lying. HR is asking for the absolute truth, and here you are "omitting" things
which isn't necessarily telling the truth.

The forbes article I linked to had the same omitting points as you made.

~~~
michaelt
> But I would say that omitting is the same thing as lying.

Let's say I think my co-worker is an asshole. How many people do I have to
tell to avoid being a liar?

~~~
ricardobeat
As many who ask you?

------
nicw
An important note: You can decline your exit interview. Unless this
requirement is sewn into your signed employment contract, politely decline the
request from HR.

~~~
yuhong
Yea, declining is a much better idea. Though in the long term, ideally
employees should be able to post these things publicly, which is even better.

~~~
nicw
I agree. Ideally, that would be nice, but it isn't going to happen. IMO, the
most professional approach when you are leaving is to give individuals
specific feedback that you think will help them succeed. However, you should
already be giving that kind of feedback to individuals, waiting till you are
leaving doesn't come off as very helpful or genuine.

~~~
yuhong
Yea, I know that sometimes it is easier said than done.

------
mullingitover
I ended up getting a decent raise because of my predecessor's exit interview.
She told the HR staff that she was leaving because she didn't get the
(actually quite meager) raise she asked for, and she was doing the work of
three people. They ended up hiring two additional people to replace her, and I
got a 7% raise.

------
aangjie
I would say, there's the question of personal branding that has to be
considered. I know that sounds like hand-wavy, marketing speak,but hear me
out. In every situation, there are ambiguities, and ideally we should be able
to rationally consider the probabilities and utility values involved and make
a decision maximizing expected value. Unfortunately, we are not Bayesian
models when it comes to decisions. So it becomes a question of personal
preference or sometimes emotional sustainability. My experience is violent
responses tend to affect your judgement for a longer time period after. On the
other hand, lying also has a similar effect, although milder. I've come to the
conclusion, it's a very hard thing to balance, and easy to over-do for me.

I have lied in a previous exit interview, saying am going for a higher
education. while that was true, that was hardly the reason for me leaving. And
it still annoys me i did that. I would rather have said, i don't think the
management practices make sense, and i haven't been able to change/modify a
single bit of it in the last 3 years. So, am better off somewhere else.
Infact, both companies after that did not have exit interview per se, so i
never got around to saying stuff, but sometimes think i should have. But i
would be happy to do something like i mentioned above with my current company
when i leave.

------
LiamPfeiffer
Any article instructing people to lie should not be circulated, let alone on
the front page of HN.

Glad to see this didn't last long.

~~~
slurgfest
Why do you say that - is that because you think it is always wrong to lie?

~~~
LiamPfeiffer
Yes. Lying perpetuates this "save yourself" culture.

Without citing white lies (presumably made to save the person being lied to),
please share an example when it is right to lie?

~~~
ucee054
"Are you sure that you have not seen any jews here?"

'Nein nein, no one here at all, Brigadeführer. Will tell you right away if I
see any, honest'

~~~
ciupicri
>> Without citing white lies (presumably made to save the person being lied
to)

~~~
ucee054
My comment was not about advantaging the person being lied _to_ but the person
being lied _about_ (and being saved), in my example a third party.

The white lie example is more like "No darling your bottom doesn't look fat in
that dress"

(The Reginald Hunter Youtube clip I included elsewhere illustrates that point
in a comedy sketch).

Actually this isn't even the definition of a white lie; White lies are lies
about _trivial_ matters.

It's not about saving the other person but about saving _face_ for the other
person. From wikipedia:

"White lies are _minor_ lies which could be considered to be harmless, or even
beneficial, in the long term. White lies are also considered to be used for
greater good."

------
darkarmani
If you are leaving a company you don't like, why would you ever tell them
anything that would make them better?

1\. If you hate them you want them to fail anyway. Tell them things are really
good.

2\. Even if you don't hate them, your feedback can only cause you harm. There
is zero upside to being honestly negative. They obviously don't have a culture
that rewarded you for taking risks or being honest, so why take one now?

~~~
raldi
> If you are leaving a company you don't like...

I've never left a company I didn't like.

------
vph
This assumes that the company is a stupid, big corporation that can't care
less what its employees feel. But a good company should take this opportunity
-- the exit interview -- to improve things.

~~~
mef
Do you know of any companies that do?

~~~
dschobel
My company (at least for two more days) apparently sends all exit-interview
notes to the senior management team and we're a fairly large company.

So if every exit interviewee says the same things, you'd have to think they
would eventually address them or keep facing the consequences.

------
lhnz
I understand what you're saying; positivity on the way out can ensure that you
don't burn bridges as nobody likes being told that they're doing a bad job.

But this isn't the right thing to do.

Show some care for your colleagues.

If you're leaving them in the same position or worse off, then it's your
responsibility to say: "I'm going now and I've enjoyed my time here for the
most part, but I really hope that you can try and fix some of these things x,
y, z for my colleagues Simon, Jack and Andy."

Avoid being rude _or_ selfish.

Reframe the conversation so it's about helping your colleagues out and not
negative feelings.

Be positive, caring and constructive at the same time.

------
mrslx
the greatest lie in business is that HR is there for you the employee. no! hr
is there to ensure the human capital investment is utilized to the fullest
extent allowed by the law and policy of the company.

------
lancewiggs
Have your real exit interview with your boss, or her boss, or higher. This can
be over a beer, or in the office. Smart bosses will seek you out, not so good
ones may not listen anyway.

------
BadassFractal
When I'm leaving, I'm already at the point where I've attempted to give all
the possible feedback, and I've become jaded enough that I simply don't care
about helping the company any longer.

I write the world's nicest email, praising the technical and personal quality
of the team and its leadership, reiterating how much of a dream it was working
with them. I make everybody feel great about themselves, and move on with my
life, never to look back again.

~~~
robbiea
yes, I agree with this. You have already tried to give the feedback already,
you didn't wait until the exit interview.

------
mzarate06
_HR will make it seem like everything you say is confidential, and no one will
ever know you said it except him / her ... everyone will find out._

 _Everyone thinks that this exit interview is your last chance for you to let
management know that things need to change. Everyone thinks that they are
going to be the change catalyst on the way out of the company. You're going to
be the hero!_

This all sounds a little over the top.

My experience has been that HR was quite clear they would share the feedback I
gave in my exit interviews among company leadership to help improve the work
environment or culture. Even if it got out more than that, no big deal.
(except if we're talking about an extreme case, e.g. an employee leaving due
to sexual harassment.) And, given that I had high respect for many that
remained at the companies I've left, I willingly gave honest feedback if it
might have any chance of improving their work environment after I left.

I respect the author's opinion, but it sounds like unnecessary hyping of exit
interviews, and bad advice ( _"exit interviews are a fraud, they're worthless,
so lie!!"_ ).

------
puppetsocks
Related question: is it legal for an employer to hold your last paycheck
hostage until you come back in to do an exit interview?

~~~
joezydeco
Usually no. Check with your state's department of labor. Most have a guide
about when the employer needs to issue you your last paycheck. If they are
withholding some or all of the paycheck against the law, you can file a claim.

[EDIT] Here's the one from the state of Illinois. It's pretty helpful:
<http://www.state.il.us/agency/idol/faq/qawage.htm>

------
Claudus
I completely disagree with the conclusions made by this article... I worked at
a company that had issues, and when employees left, I always found out to some
degree what they said in the exit interview.

Employees that were polite and constructive, but honest, in pointing out
issues and problems earned much more respect from me than employees who sucked
up.

------
Tyrannosaurs
The potential benefits of being truthful in a exit interview largely accrue to
those still at the company, the risks largely accrue to the person doing the
interview.

Combine that with the fact that companies who have significant problems of the
sort that make people want to leave rarely deal with them (if they were that
sort of company they wouldn't have those issues in the first place), and on
balance it simply makes no sense to offer anything other than a somewhat rose
tinted version of the truth at most.

The world is a smaller place than most people think, people know people, word
gets around, unofficial references are taken all the time ("hey, this guy
worked at place X, I know someone there, I'll give him a call"). Never
unnecessarily upset someone, anyone, without very good reason.

And whatever you do, never ever make the mistake of assuming that because you
were right, that's how it will be seen (and told) by everyone.

------
tluyben2
Hmm. People I know including myself wouldn't do an 'exit interview'. Once you
know you're gone, you just leave (actually that instant, usually). Why would
you waste time talking to pencil pushers? Never gave anyone I know a bad rep
either; I don't know if this is the country I live in, but no-one cares about
the past basically; references are never called (I tried to do this in my own
companies, but everyone on the other end lies, because there is always some
kind of deal in place, no matter how someone leaves; it's a money thing so no-
one is going to tell you the truth anyway) and people have 'better' stuff to
do than talk about you (cocktails might be free for instance or something
something olympics!).

------
themckman
Burning bridges, huh? I usually show up on my first day at a job with gas can
and matches in hand. By the time I'm leaving a company, any criticisms I've
had at all about anything there have been voiced quite publicly and, ideally,
to the highest executive I get a chance to expose to my thoughts on any
particular subject that might be bothering me. Most of my peers think I'm kind
of an ass sometimes, but I'm friends outside of work with many of them and
they have a general respect for my willingness to challenge authority on the
job. Outside of work, however, I'm a wuss...you never know what you're going
to deal with and I could get beat up if I'm too much of a dick!

------
rm999
At my last job I had two exit interviews. In the first HR sent me the typical
forms, which I'm sure went straight to the garbage.

In the second my VP sat me down and asked me why I was leaving. I could tell
he would have been fine with my BS answer or with my honest one, so I gave him
a mix of the two. I avoided the tacky stuff (we were all underpaid, which he
knew) and concentrated on my personal development. It was constructive without
coming off as petty or angry. He told me he was happy with my work and that I
could come back anytime, and wished me luck. That second exit interview was
great because HR had nothing to do with it.

------
pasbesoin
What will it (really) accomplish?

Is this something(s) you want?

In other words: Context.

Keep in mind that for "established" organizations, you will be interviewing
with HR and not with your own management. (Even if one of them sits in, HR is
driving the show.) And HR has its own agenda, goals, and reports.

Amongst other things, if there is a whiff of controversy (that might, even
just on an outside chance, turn into arbitration or legal action), it may be
best to simply decline the interview.

Right or wrong, I tend to view one's HR file as akin to talking to the cops.
'Anything [in it] can and will be used against you.'

------
ww520
Just an anecdote, during one of my exit interviews, I ranted about the
problems, including the ineffective leadership of my boss and my boss' boss. 9
months later, my old boss actually contacted me and asked if I could go back
to work in the old company. Being honest and giving constructive criticism
don't burn bridge if the recipients can handle it. If they can't handle it,
you don't want to work with them anyway so no big deal for those burnt
bridges.

------
codegeek
Exit interview reminds me of the "Year End appraisals" that happens at
companies especially the giant ones. Both are highly ineffective unless
constant feedback and engagement is done throughout the year b/w the
employer/boss/HR and the employee. I absolutely hated this whole drama which
is more of a formality of filling out forms.

------
alan_cx
Exit interview? Never had one myself, never heard of any one having one, well,
an official one at least. Im guessing its more an American thing than a
British one?

Anyway, why would one want anything to do with an exit interview? Sounds like
a complete mine field. I cant see a reason I'd want to attend one. Are these
things forced on people?

~~~
lmm
I'm also a Brit and have had such interviews both times I left a job (though
admittedly these were owned by American or Americanized companies). Of course
you wouldn't want to make personal attacks or anything like that, but it's a
chance to give a clear statement of your reasons for leaving (which can help
you as much as your now-ex employer). The last job I left seemed to be just a
bad fit between me and the role, and even now I'm frustratingly unsure exactly
what I didn't like about it, but I'm glad that we at least took half an hour
and tried to talk it through and figure out where it went wrong.

------
at-fates-hands
I've had plenty of exit interviews and some I've been nice and candid and
others I dropped daisy cutters and tried to kick the devil on the way out the
door.

I've never gained anything from either approach and have since decided not to
waste my time any more. Besides, the last person management wants to hear from
are disgruntled developers.

------
joering2
Spot on! Take Scott Thompson, disgraced former CEO of Yahoo. In an
announcement, Thompson said he was leaving Yahoo due to his health problems...
that least very shortly because soon after he joined ShopRunner. So you have a
perfect example of a guy that lied on his resume, as well as during his exit.
Liar always liar?

------
zeroonetwothree
Why would you even agree to do an exit interview? I'd rather just opt out than
lie throughout the process.

------
ojbyrne
Better solution - and generally recommended by experts - just decline any and
all exit interviews.

------
drtse4
Some bridges just need to be burned.

~~~
Paul_S
Bridges tend to be interconnected - I'm afraid the analogy breaks down here
but you know what I mean. It might be tempting and your ego might demand it
but the advice in the article is pretty solid. There's nothing to be gained
here except feeling smug (probably briefly).

~~~
drtse4
When the thing on the other side of the bridge doesn't share your values i'd
say it's healthy, and the fact that connections will likely be burned is a
plus. Btw, burn them by default doesn't make sense, on that i can agree.

------
adrianwaj
Any freelancers reading this: I have an idea to allow people to recommend
possible replacements upon exit interviews.

"richbridge" "moneydoor" "smartexit"

Perhaps you can already work out the use case and flow. Drop me a line if
interested.

------
ww520
Don't be afraid to burn bridge at exit. You don't want to work again with the
people you hated anyway. It takes courage to make a stand and here's chance to
practice it.

------
lubujackson
I like how they made a six point list out of one point. This should have been
a tweet.

------
figital
Exit interviews are for suckers.

