
Why I canceled my college subscription - joshstrange
http://www.joshstrange.com/2012/03/21/why-i-canceled-my-college-subscription/
======
tseabrooks
I'm not sure I'm ready to get on the Anti-College bandwagon. There's been a
rash of Anti-College sentiment around this place lately and while part of me
agrees another part of me mourns for all of these students leaving college. I
know it may be an unpopular opinion but I doubt most people can get the tools
they need for success in many fields (Even software) without a college degree.

I'm in no way making the claim that someone can't be a very very good
programmer without college, the best programmer I've ever met left college
after 1.5 years, but there's a very real risk of having holes. Some of these
holes, despite what people might like to believe, simply aren't going to be
filled in the future.

A few holes I've seen in the awesome unschooled programmers I've worked with:

1) Inability to finish. This is a biggy.

2) Deficiency in the "science" part of Computer Science (Algorithms and
Theory)

3) A lack of knowledge where the "Liberal Arts" are concerned.

(And Others)

Maybe all of these things aren't important and maybe some of them can be
learned later. However, I think people who skip college will be less likely to
spend the time and energy necessary to learn these things (In the same way
people who put off school for a job are less likely to attend school).

It also seems that the Theory needs to be paired with the Liberal Arts and the
competent programmer in order to make a really exceptional programmer.

All that said, I think this backlash is really just the front end of a massive
paradigm shift in the way the western world views / does education so we'll
just have to wait and see.

EDIT: It seem that leaving college early could be indicative of either a)
Already getting everything you could out of it or b) an inability to finish.

~~~
mhurron
>There's been a rash of Anti-College sentiment around this place lately

It's no different than the general anti-intellectual sentiment growing in the
US. The feeling that you can learn it all on your own without anyone telling
or anyone's help is what is driving so many peoples thought processes
recently.

That people looked at and treat higher education as just job training and
nothing more doesn't help either.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_...anti-intellectual sentiment growing in the US. The feeling that you can
learn it all on your own without anyone telling or anyone's help..._

How is the idea that you can use your own intellect and educate yourself anti-
intellectual?

~~~
kenjackson
I think the anti-intellectual sentiment is a bit broader. I'd define it as,
"Those people who studied this their whole lives and have degrees and papers
in journals don't know more about this topic than I do."

The anti-intellectual movement is the belief that everyone is biased, and
since everyone is biased their scientific position is no more correct than
mine.

This started more than a decade ago, and I used to joke that one day people
would say, "Science and Nature are left wing rags". About three months ago I
actually had a debate where someone said almost exactly that -- "All those
papers published in science journals are by Democrats!"

I love self-education (although I'm of the camp that believes all education is
self-education, even when you go to college) -- but the anti-intellectual
movement is taking a fringe left-wing pursuit from the 60s (relativism) and
making it mainstream for the right-wing in this century.

~~~
paulhauggis
"Those people who studied this their whole lives and have degrees and papers
in journals don't know more about this topic than I do."

Just because you've studied something your entire life doesn't make you right
100% of the time.

"All those papers published in science journals are by Democrats!"

The problem? Many scientific studies are also political in nature and slant to
one way, which is why I start to question many of them. I can see the bias 10
miles away and most people just read it as fact.

You make it sound almost like a religion: I'm not to question the supreme
leader (people who are smarter than I am because they've studied a topic their
entire lives), I just need to follow it. I will never think this way. Sorry.

I am in no way anti-intellectual. I just refuse to be force-fed things by
people claiming to be smarter than me.

~~~
kenjackson
The problem paul is that this same level of criticality isn't enforced
uniformly. Many, if not most, of those same people who doubt anything that
comes out of Harvard, MIT, or CalTech as Democratic propaganda will cite Rush
Limbaugh as a reputable authority on virtually anything. CalTech says that a
certain nuclear facility has problems, Limbaugh counters by saying, "If that
was the case why are most of the people in the nearby city still born with 10
fingers. Clearly those at CalTech are lying."

I don't know if Wiles did or did not prove FLT. I've seen the proof, don't
understand it. Do I believe it -- I believe that a good faith convincing
effort has been made. For most things I know in life that is also what I
believe. I haven't confirmed really anything about the periodic table or much
about quantum physics our sun or even more basic things like the gravitational
pull of things not as large as the Earth. I do generally believe what others
have told me (and the fact that they "say" they've done experiments),
especially if they have a history of telling me things that are consistent
with other things in my life.

And to be clear it's not about people claiming to be smarter than you. It's
about people who have consistently shown that they know more than you do about
a specific topic. Of course if you must prove using standard levels of
scientific proof everything all over again then I'd love to see your lab where
you've done this work. It must be huge.

~~~
paulhauggis
"Limbaugh counters by saying, "If that was the case why are most of the people
in the nearby city still born with 10 fingers. Clearly those at CalTech at
lying."

See. you're biased. You are talking about the left and the right. Not anti-
intellectualism (which described above is actually anti-elitism). The left
will never admit Rush is correct, even when he as scientific proof/facts to
back it up.

"It's about people who have consistently shown that they know more than you do
about a specific topic. Of course if you must prove using standard levels of
scientific proof everything all over again then I'd love to see your lab where
you've done this work. It must be huge."

You need to look at who is funding the study/research/scientist to really give
you an idea if you can really believe it without further research.

Global warming is a good example of this. There is so much government money
wrapped up in it (billions of dollars), I seriously doubt we will never know
if it's truly man-caused or not (why would anyone go against it when their
funding/tax dollars in many European countries gets cut).

A friend of mine has his phd in epidemiology. She really opened my eyes up to
the biased nature of research studies.

~~~
DanBC
> _You need to look at who is funding the study/research/scientist to really
> give you an idea if you can really believe it without further research._

No. The beauty of science is that it doesn't matter who funds it. So long as
they're releasing all the papers[1] and the data[2] you can check the results
yourself.

[1] unethical scientists will do many studies and only release the ones that
confirm the results they want to find.

[2] often data is hidden somewhere and not available.

------
kenjackson
I must admit that I actually just really enjoyed college. While I can
appreciate the financial hardship it may impose on some -- if it doesn't for
you, it's some of the best years of your life.

You'll be surrounded with peers that are your age. You'll enjoy a very equal
male/female ratio (at least in your living quarters and some courses), and you
get to study a broad diverse set of topics constantly. And for the most part
you get to select what you study.

To steal a famous quote -- college is wasted on the young. ;-) I think if you
were to ask most 30-50 year olds if they could drop most of their current
responsibilities (with impunity) and go to college full time, the vast
majority would.

As someone who has started start-ups, joined start ups, consulted, and worked
for F100 companies -- you have your whole life to work. I wouldn't start into
it a day earlier than necessary.

With that said, there may be things you love that you can do as a job and
things you can do to become very rich very young. I think those opportunities
are fewer and rarer than most here believe, but they do exist.

~~~
AndrewNCarr
>I think if you were to ask most 30-50 year olds if they could drop most of
their current responsibilities (with impunity) and go to college full time,
the vast majority would.

No. Especially not in the "Information Age". This from someone who continues
to learn every day, to steal a quote "a day without learning is like a day
without sunshine". When you ignore the social-club elements of college and
focus on academia, there is never a moment I would drop everything and go back
to college full time (or any level of time).

~~~
kylemaxwell
The only reason I don't quit and go back to grad school full-time for a few
years is that I can't afford it. I have a family to support now, and so doing
that would be the height of irresponsibility.

It's not that I don't learn every single day now, because I do and I love
that. But I can't focus single-mindedly on learning stuff because it's either
cool or a stepping stone to learning cool stuff. That's what I miss.

~~~
AndrewNCarr
>It's not that I don't learn every single day now, because I do and I love
that. But I can't focus single-mindedly on learning stuff because it's either
cool or a stepping stone to learning cool stuff. That's what I miss.

Again, this is the "Information Age", dedicated knowledge acquisition no
longer requires college. For many, traditional academia is not the most
efficient means of learning anyway.

Compare and contrast RIAA/MPAA & Music/Movies with College/University &
intellectualism and learning. When the former criticizes the anti-SOPA
movement, we laugh and shake our heads at their absurd cries. When the later
criticizes "anti-intellectualism" (which really means anti-academia), many
respond as desired, by shaking their heads at the image of ignorant peasants
at the gates of intellectualism with pitch forks and torches. In both cases we
have old, established, and powerful institutions trying to maintain their
power. While one is starting to succumb (or perhaps adapt) to a changing and
innovating market, the other continues to further entrench itself while
raising its prices ever skyward.

It is an interesting comparison to consider. I'll end with a pertinent quote.

"Never let formal education get in the way of your learning." -Mark Twain

~~~
kylemaxwell
But even in this age, when you can learn so much by just going to your
preferred search engine and typing "learn $topic", you still can't focus
exclusively on that when you also have to focus on your job, etc.

University gives you a few years to do that.

~~~
snth
I think people remember college through rose-colored glasses---as if college
is where you do whatever you want and learn whatever you want for a few years.
If you're degree-seeking, and you are pursuing a decently difficult degree
like Computer Science or Engineering at a competitive college, most of your
courses will be planned out for you. You may have a few "electives", but
they'd better not take too much time away from your required classes.

Now if you're independently wealthy and a non-degree-seeker, you really could
learn whatever you wanted at whatever rate was most optimal. That's not the
usual college experience. That does seem closer to a "college subscription"
though.

------
hobin
What's with all the 'Boo! College is bad!' posts these days? Don't get me
wrong, if people find good jobs and educate themselves without going to
college, more power to them. However, I dislike the tendency of some(/many) of
these posts to present college as a waste of time. It's not. And that's from
someone who dropped out the first time around. ;)

~~~
irahul
> What's with all the 'Boo! College is bad!' posts these days?

It's "Why I am unsubscribing" which is different from "Boo! College is bad!"

> Don't get me wrong, if people find good jobs and educate themselves without
> going to college, more power to them.

Isn't the article exactly about that?

> However, I dislike the tendency of some(/many) of these posts to present
> college as a waste of time. It's not.

Whether college is a waste of time or not depends on the college, teachers,
peers, if you can afford it, what you want to get out of it, how much work you
are willing to put, and a variety of other factors. Saying that "college isn't
waste of time" is as meaningless as "college is a waste of time". Also, the
article wasn't arguing either ways - "what didn't work for me" isn't the same
as "it doesn't work."

> And that's from someone who dropped out the first time around. ;)

I am pretty sure for every "I quit my job and started my company" there are
many "Don't quit your job. That's from someone who quit his job". Different
people, different strokes - there isn't any universal rule of thumb.

------
c4m
I fully support this trend of people thinking critically about college and
making their own decisions about it.

However be careful when dropping out if you'll ever want to work outside the
country. Most countries require a 4 year degree for work visas, and this can
sometimes be onerous to get around. This is especially important for those who
don't have US citizenship.

------
kylemaxwell
If you treat your time in university as job training, then maybe it's not
worth doing. But if you treat it as a time to learn about a whole lot of new
things - including all those core subjects that so many 19-year-olds gripe
about - and a time to dabble socially in environments you might not otherwise
have, then it's a different matter.

The post makes reference to the author enjoying being part of a fraternity.
Indeed, his blog subtitle is "the musings of an undergrad fraternity man".
This is part of his identity for the moment, and now he wants to walk away
from it because it's not helping him careerwise.

 __TL;DR: if you think education is just about your career, then you missed
the point somewhere along the way. __

~~~
matwood
_TL;DR: if you think education is just about your career, then you missed the
point somewhere along the way._

I agree, and you've touched on something about the changes in how college is
viewed in general. College used to be about education, and laying a foundation
for a lifetime of learning. Nowadays it seems to have shifted to be more about
sports and partying.

I think going to college is in general a good thing, but it's up to the
student to make the most out of the experience. That includes picking the
right college, and not going into lots of debt just to go a party school.
Perhaps most eighteen year old kids are simply not ready to make those sorts
of life changing decisions.

------
moocow01
Very good article - BUT can we stop pointing to Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg
as examples of dropout success? Thats 2 people. It would be much more
encouraging to point to some data that infers how well college dropouts or
non-degree holders as a whole do in the tech industry or in entrepreneurship.

I say this not to discourage people from dropping out of college and shooting
for the moon but at the same time I think its a huge disservice for people to
look at Steve Jobs and say well he did ok.

Again I support this guy - everyone has their individual path but I think in
discussion we should also be considering that pursuing higher education tends
to generally correlate to better success rates in business.

~~~
nekojima
You'd need to separate out different sub-sectors of the tech industry,
business and entrepreneurship, as they have varying characteristics which
correlate to success and failure. Some may not require university, depending
on level and role, others are almost wholly dependent on being able to conduct
groundbreaking or innovative research to drive competitive products.

------
celerity
It dedinitely makes sense to forego college for some people. However, in many
scientific diaciplines (math, physics, biology, chemistry) it is virtually
impossible to succeed without focused mentorship, an immersive environment,
and in the case of experimental science, capital funding. I would also guess
that many types of engineering require a similar atmosphere.

That is basically the reason why I find these discussions too sweeping and
generalizing to be valid. What works for one person or field, might not apply
to another.

In addition, for those who can afford it, college provides a tremendous
general education and exploration opportunity.

------
sammyo
For coding and even designing systems minimal college is probably sufficient.
Now in your spare time review some of that serious math, not just basic calc
but real differential equations or the subtler bits of stats. Doing math is
really tough after college.

The blogger clearly has a grasp of English composition, but how's his history
or other broad academic topics that should be more pervasive in society?
Wouldn't it be wonderful if Leno announce that they stopped doing the JayWalk
segment because they couldn't stump anyone.

------
ivansoln
Don't.

College should be and can be intellectually wonderful....a place to play with
all kinds of deep computer science theories and really push yourself beyond
the latest technology fad and stack. What are you diving into beyond your
classes? Have you raided the library and net for books on information theory,
parallel computing, machine learning, linear algebra, digital signal
processing, etc, etc, etc? Have you found a set of fellow geeks who are doing
the same - who'll push you to the very limit of your abilities?

As you develop and grow as a programmer (I'm still doing that after 20 years)
you'll find again and again that really top-notch programming and problem
solving is far more than the technology. That's where the real fun programming
problems are - and companies will pay you a LOT to solve those problems.

BTW I did pretty much drop out of college and eventually go back. I was the
classic undergrad geek who grew up hacking and programming way before college.
Like you, I was bored with the course material and making good money in my
part-time programming job. Now I've a computer science PhD and I've been a
research scientist in world class universities.

Or putting it much shorter: You've got brains, invest your time in college to
push yourself beyond just the course material. You'll make much more money in
the longer term and you'll have a far more satisfying and intellectually
rewarding software development job.

BTW as an alternative to dropping out, if you can (and its what I did for my
undergrad) I suggest finishing your degree by night or part-time. Its hard
though.

------
herbalbacon
I recently started a CS program yet ironically for the exact same reason. I
left college to focus on a career, but found after earning a ridiculous salary
for my skills (single, living at home, no gf) I couldn't seem to get ahead.
Everything above my pay grade required a college degree over experience, from
various things like mid management to working on external web apps. The boss
felt the various certifications one can acrew in addition to the degree meant
one's interest in the profession was certainly genuine. I'm a bit biased and
disagree, but that's where it ended.

I wonder one thing, would he as the boss of the company be _more_ liable if he
hired someone without certificate/degrees and there's a breach of data? Does
the law side against the employee with the degrees and thus can be judged as
having known better, or does it not matter?

~~~
rsanchez1
I wonder if he would've cared where you got that degree. If you would have
enrolled in night school at your local community college to get a degree in
accounting or IT or whatever is available, would that have been enough to
satisfy the boss?

------
jenne313
It's infinitely easier to discuss the necessity of higher education post
successful career-launch. (Did I really need to do that vs. Do I really need
to finish this?)

I find it disconcerting to hear the anti-college sentiment coming directly
from an about-to-drop-out college student. I suppose it is possible to find
yourself, suddenly and without a degree, launching or exiting or doing
something amazing, but it seems far more likely that the lack thereof (for
those that decide to drop-out or never go at all,) may at some point hold you
back (regardless of talent.)

I am speaking from the perspective of a drop-out. I didn't have help paying
for college, but I tried to do it anyway. The demands of working full time (to
pay for classes) made actually going to classes too difficult, and I failed. I
was left with a tremendous amount of debt I was not able to capitalize upon,
and for the next several years I paid back that debt while working from the
ground up in my career field.

I hit the ceiling much faster than I anticipated - If I wanted to advance,
regardless of my natural talent, I would have to go back to school. I was
still paying back loans from the first go, and had to try, yet again, to
manage the demands of a career and school as well. I eventually did graduate,
and found that once I could check the box for that piece of paper, my
opportunities for advancement evolved into true tests of my talent, not just
my ability to prove I could finish something I started.

YMMV; it's easier to ask myself now: 'what did I really gain from this?' A
deeper understaning of how to navigate beurocracy, a small fortune in debt,
few (if any) of the skills I use on a daily basis... but the point is I can
ask the question from the financially secure and comfortable seat I couldn't
have gotten into any other way.

I understand that every person's path is different, and that my situation may
not be the situation that Josh will find himself in. In fact, I hope that for
him. Because the thought of leaving college a) so close to completion and b)
that is subsidized partially by his family (leaving very little to pay off)
for anything less than a six-figure exit just doesn't make sense to me.

------
__float
I don't think this sort of strategy really can work for anyone who wants to do
something other than write code (and not really low-level systems programming,
either--plain desktop and web apps, perhaps). Science, engineering, medicine,
etc: the cutting edge research is published behind paywalls and more paywalls.

A university gives you opportunities for research, a decent guarantee to
employers that you know what you need to know (for this reason, GPA is
important). It is so much more than what people here seem to think. You can
buy textbooks online, but that's it. If that's all you consider to be
"college," then you're missing the big picture.

------
krschultz
I agree with him on one thing: if you are getting less than a 2.5 GPA, college
is definitely not worth your time or money.

Much like I never urge anyone to vote who doesn't want to, I will never tell
people to stay in school if they don't want to. For those that do go to
college the experience is far better if your peers want to be there as much as
you. People who go 'because that's what you are supposed to do' drag down the
class.

------
ericabiz
Josh, I applaud you. Don't let the people in this thread, your parents, or
anyone else tell you differently, either.

I dropped out of college when I was halfway through my second year to take a
full-time job in tech. I left that job less than a year later and started my
own tech company. I ended up selling that business for $1.1 million when I was
26--when most of the people who graduated high school when I did were still in
school!

Running your own business, especially a tech company (when you're already
geeky), is some of the best education you can get. My parents cut me off
financially when I dropped out of school. My mom told me it was "the worst
decision I'd ever made."

But something strange happens: When you are forced to succeed, you often do.
You make ends meet. I consulted building shopping carts and CMSes for
customers in this new language called PHP (4.0 had just come out!) for the
first couple years of running my business. Those clients became my first
hosting customers, and then my tiny little hosting company beat the odds to
become a Silicon Valley success story.

Now I'm doing it all over again with another startup. We have 4 full-time
people here in Austin, TX. Three of us have no college degrees. But I'm pretty
confident things will work out even better this time.

So avoid the naysayers, find your role models, and be driven to succeed. Start
your own business, learn sales and marketing, and then hire the guys right out
of college and have them work for you. (They're good folks.) And never look
back.

(Here's my full story [written as of 2009]): <http://www.erica.biz/2009/the-
end-of-an-era/>

------
Pent
I'm of the impression, that for the most part, college is about networking.
The material is a side benefit that you could pick up on your own. It feels
like he picked up on that(joining the fraternity) and decided the rest wasn't
worth the debt.

~~~
dougws
How on earth did you end up with that impression? While it's true that it's
possible to pick up the material on your own, it's the rare individual (I know
one) who is actually able to do so completely--and I think this particular guy
would say that he would have been much better off had he studied it in school.
Teaching yourself CS (and by "CS" I definitely don't mean "building a website
in PHP") is really, really hard, and learning it from an expert (in college we
call them "professors") is a much more efficient way to go about it unless
you're so overwhelmingly brilliant that it's easy for you.

------
gamechangr
Good choice!!

Udemy and Udacity can give you all you need for free!

~~~
achompas
It remains to be seen whether (a) they will provide a comprehensive CS track
or (b) if their offerings will remain free. Neither of those is satisfied
right now.

~~~
delinka
(psst ... don't click the back button to edit your comment - use the edit link
above your comment)

