
Post mortem: Thanks and lessons learned - antr
http://elnorr.com/2014/01/27/post-mortem-thanks-lessons-learned/
======
revelation
So I install a random app that includes PingJam. Another flashlight app or
something.

So the flashlight app then goes and monitors my phone calls, intercepts them
_to display ads_ (at no point is it clear that the app is responsible for
that) and probably relays my called numbers to PingJam?

Are you fucking kidding me? It's straight malware and you should be fined
triple for every dollar you ever made. Google should fire whoever inside their
organization enabled you to run this scam for longer than a month.

(Anyone still have the SDK or an app that used this? I'd love to see if it
leaked caller ids to them. Holy privacy invasion.)

~~~
dhimes
I really hate being this cynical, but I dare say they were simply ahead of the
curve. The over-under on google doing this themselves? Two years?

~~~
beat
The article states that it happened immediately after Google released a very
similar feature on Android.

------
brey

      Pingjam was a monetization solution for Android app developers
      ...
      Google Play kicked out over 1,000 apps that worked with us from their app store
    

this whole article paints Google in the usual HN-friendly light of 'big bad
unapproachable Google being evil', without giving any detail on what this
'monetization solution' actually was, and why Google wasn't being entirely
reasonable to kick it to the kerb.

edit: yeah, thought so. they push contextual ads based on who you're calling.
no surprises that got killed.

~~~
btilly
I've experienced enough about Google to believe that their experience could be
exactly what was described.

On the other hand looking at links like
[https://angel.co/pingjam](https://angel.co/pingjam) I have to admit that they
were doing something that was going to feel a lot like privacy invasion.
Knowing who you were calling, and using that to target relevant ads?

~~~
blowski
Facebook is now scanning SMS on Android, ostensibly for 2 factor
authentication, but it's easy to see them mining the data for advertising
purposes. I wonder how Google will react to that.

------
guynamedloren
> _To this date, I don’t know what made Google suddenly not like us. I don’t
> know whether we got kicked out because 24 hours before banning our apps
> Google launched an almost identical feature in Android 4.4 or if it’s
> something else_

Google has been accused of being "evil" in recent years, but I find it strange
that they'd pull 1,000 apps with no forewarning and no explanation as to why.
Surely they must have given you advance notice, perhaps a chance to change
your service? Either that or your service was doing something unethical or
clearly against Google's terms, and it was just a matter of time until they
killed it.

Something doesn't add up here...

Edit: after looking at the site ([http://pingjam.com/](http://pingjam.com/)),
I have no idea what kind of advertising service this is, but it looks pretty
nasty (in call popup ads?). Site itself is also very, very vague, providing
little information on the service itself, and lots of fluff.

tl;dr - we made a shitty service and Google killed it.

------
prottmann
You add Ads on top of a fundamental function of a phone???

Sorry, but it is correct that google kick you out.

And i cant believe that app users understand what they installed in
background. I think many users complained about the ads and thats why google
react.

------
royprins
On a more general note, I enjoy reading these post-mortems. Not out of a wry
malicious pleasure, but it is certainly a learning experience.

Is there some place where these are gathered for common benefit? Maybe get
into more depth with interviews, because this post-mortem for instance leaves
a lot of questions unanswered.

The top Google link is a CBinsights blog post, but that does not really cover
it. I would consider starting this as a side-project. Would this be
interesting?

~~~
oscargrouch
> Would this be interesting?

Of course it would! but make sure to create a profile for each company, what
they are trying to achieve, how, etc..

And then all the biography of the company.. what events ocurred.. also
analisys could be collected from bright folks of what they were doing right
and wrong.. just some ideas :)

We can learn much more from failures compared to the successful enterprises..
we dont hear much from the failed side of the trench. and thats a shame..

------
AznHisoka
"Don't rely on just 1 platform as much as possible"

Look at Zynga => they relied on FB

Look at Angry Birds (initially) => they relied on Apple

Look at Moz => they relied on Google (scraping rankings)

Look at Xobni => they relied on Microsoft

Look at Rapportive => they relied on Google/Gmail

Look at TweetDeck (before acquisition) => they relied on Twitter

It's not black and white. Sometimes you just get unlucky. Sometimes you get
lucky.

~~~
iamchrisle
Just a quick note: Moz's domain authority and page authority score is what is
used the most in the industry. It relies on their farm crawling the web and
seeing who's linking to who. Their business is NOT heavily dependent on
Google. Rankings is one of many features.

------
raverbashing
"To stress the point, if your startup has one point of failure that is
controlled by one entity – do what you can to not be totally dependent on that
single entity. Develop for other platforms, decouple from the ecosystem. Do
whatever it takes to get out from under their thumb."

This is the most important part that most don't seem to grab

This has caused several people to go under. Another company doesn't owe you
nothing, be that Linkedin, Twitter, Facebook, Google

If your product rests on only one base, you are under a great risk

------
mindcrime
_Don’t operate in a market where a single player can arbitrarily decide to
kill you. Especially don’t work in a market that’s controlled by an entity
that explicitly refuses to communicate with you (or anyone else) or to explain
their guidelines._

That really says it all. As another commenter pointed out, yeah, sometimes you
get lucky... but I say "why tempt fate"? Some people go to Vegas and bet their
life's savings on the roulette wheel and come out with a bundle. Most people
that go to Vegas come back with their wallets lighter than when the went.

Some people bet on a platform that they don't control, with no SLA or
contractual agreements to protect themselves, and subject themselves to the
capricious whims and foibles of Google, Apple, Microsoft, IBM, Twitter or
whoever, and some of them succeed wildly. That doesn't mean it's a good idea
to do this.

There's an old saw that says the two worst strategic mistakes you can make are
"launching a ground invasion of Russia in the winter, and partnering with
Microsoft". I'd like to offer up a new version of that:

"The three worst strategic mistakes you can make are launching a ground
invasion of Russia in the winter, partnering with Microsoft, and tying your
app to a single-source platform you have no control over".

------
mcgwiz
Lesson learned: don't expect a business built on breach of standards of
conduct to be sustainable.

Monitoring call records and targeting ads based on them sounds very close to
what the NSA has been exploiting in mobile apps (c.f. revelations a couple
days ago). Atrocious. I blame both Pingjam _and the app developers_ for
callously abusing end-user trust and integrating with such a shady third-
party.

This also reminds me of top comment on the $50,000 Twitter name social
engineering attack article[1]: setup a list of vendors that have pathetic
security practices, but in this case the list would be of apps that integrate
shady third-parties.

I'm not sure if these guys are super-slick sheisters or legitimately clueless.
This 'woe-is-us' blog post, written in the style of the humble lean innocent
entrepreneur, certainly strikes me as disingenuous.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7142523](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7142523)

------
elnorr
Thank you all for your comments.

The intent of the post was to share experiences and lessons, not to promote
what we did at Pingjam. We already went through that discussion several months
ago when we were working to get Pingjam accepted by developers. Some
developers (including very respectable apps) liked our service and tried us
out, some did not. To each their own. Since I don't think it's useful to
discuss what we did - I'll refrain from fully explaining what we did, why we
thought it was a good thing, the value that the service provided to users or
how we made sure to follow best practices on opt-ins, opt-outs, privacy, etc'.
You are welcome to think what you want about our service.

Regardless of whether you like the service we provided or not, we went through
a certain set of experiences that can be useful to others. If you choose to
take anything from that - I hope it helps you in whatever you are doing.

------
mpclark
>the reality is that we've failed.

I'm seeing this a lot lately. Paraphrasing UK driving test examiners, it
should be "You didn't FAIL; you just didn't succeed this time."

------
mathattack
_Until the money is in the bank you don’t have an investment._

There is a lot of talk about what went wrong, but I think this is the most
transferable lesson spanning startups of every kind.

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pistle
You made ad/malware available for phones as a slimy monetization gimmmick for
1000's of apps. Wish you would have learned another lesson.

------
msh
Maybe a better lesson to be learned: don't be scum

------
kishor_gurtu
yuck.

