
How to handle Hacker News feedback on your beloved app - revorad
http://hrishimittal.com/post/52291881111/how-to-handle-hacker-news-feedback-on-your-beloved-app
======
crntaylor
I disagree with the advice to "focus on the positive feedback". You will
already have an unrealistically optimistic view of your app, because it's your
baby. Your purpose in showing it to HN (or any other audience) is to get a
more accurate picture of both their positive aspects and their shortcomings.
If you focus only on positive feedback, you get validation, but you don't find
out how to improve.

Research has found that novices disproportionately seek positive feedback,
whereas experts seek negative feedback[0]. Would you rather be more like a
novice, or more like an expert?

Doyen of entrepreneurs, Elon Musk, also advices entrepreneurial wannabes to
seek negative feedback[1]:

"Always seek negative feedback, even though it can be mentally painful. They
won't always be right, but I find the single biggest error people make is to
ignore constructive, negative feedback."

[0]
[http://blogs.cuit.columbia.edu/sf2559/files/2011/08/FF_JCR_F...](http://blogs.cuit.columbia.edu/sf2559/files/2011/08/FF_JCR_Feedback.pdf)

[1] [http://news.investors.com/management-leaders-in-
success/0821...](http://news.investors.com/management-leaders-in-
success/082112-622935-elon-musk-launched-spacex-tesla.htm?p=full)

~~~
monsterix
Upvoted.

After some thought I felt that it'd be nice to not let any 'Show HN posts'
pass through without some sort of criticism and/or value assessment. Give it a
domain-ban, if the post deserves it... but don't let it get away without the
Mordor's eye.

Quite often we see some really nice pieces of work dropping off the new-page
with just 1/2 votes. Later the same page pops up to the front with better
timing or sort. And also sometimes not so great pieces of work pop up on the
front page simply because of timing, clout and other factors - call it kismet,
not karma.

I personally try to vote projects off the new page, to support ones which are
good, but probably not many HN'ers waylay (I could be totally wrong on this
assumption though) the new submissions page.

Here is what I think that could be done:

All show HN: posts be given a round of review/criticism. Let there be some
extra weight, extra time and also heavier penalty during the charged life of
such a post. A separate tab like Ask HN: perhaps?

~~~
rallison
There already exists an Ask HN tab that aggregates the Ask HN and Show HN
posts.

------
jmtame
I was just thinking about this today. Funny enough, the stuff HN says usually
comes up when I talk to people while I'm out or talking to customers. They
have the same concerns, but HN will just tell you up front, whereas most
people just won't say anything. Would you rather know what people are
thinking, or not know anything at all?

I'd say you should just focus on answering people's questions/criticisms as
long as they aren't trolling. I did a Show HN today, and while a lot of it was
critical, I think most of it was valid:
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5828480> \- we also got some great
suggestions on parts that were confusing.

We require Facebook, we have a credit card with up front payment. This is
literally as bad as it gets, in terms of HN standards. And we got plenty of
people who paid us money up front and Facebook connected (some people are
paying us $200 and giving us access to a lot of Facebook information and
they've never met us before). When you're dealing with money and identity, I
think you should address people's concerns and take it seriously. Difficult to
sweep that stuff under the rug and pretend like it's not a big deal to take
someone's money or identity and use it in some way.

I'd say expect that HN will be critical, as will most people. At least HN is
telling you. Most people won't care enough to take time and comment.

Reminds me of a quote that I really like: "The opposite of love is not hate,
it's indifference." - Eli Wiesel

~~~
revorad
Good points, Jared. My post veers a bit on the negative side, but I just
wanted to address the things that are demoralising to people putting up stuff
for feedback. You've been around a long time building and shipping stuff, so
you probably have a thick skin.

I agree that it's better to get some critical feedback than none, but _only if
it's on-topic_. A lot of times, I see Show HN posts derailed by comments on
stuff that doesn't even matter.

------
jacques_chester
There are entire books written on pricing. I recommend _Strategy and Tactics
of Pricing_. It's a short, focused textbook and very illuminating. I reviewed
it last year[1].

Remember: all passionate arguments about technology are close to being total
irrelevancies in the face of the leverage good pricing gives you.

Rails vs Node, Ember vs Angular, ConfusingName vs PuntasmicNomenclature: these
arguments have _next to zero influence over your profitability and cashflow_.

It is a lever you will not get to pull very often, so you might as well take a
little time to think about it.

[1] [http://chester.id.au/2012/09/12/review-the-strategy-and-
tact...](http://chester.id.au/2012/09/12/review-the-strategy-and-tactics-of-
pricing/)

------
JohnLBevan
My version of those points would be:

1\. Provide a demo option if login's required To avoid asking for people to
use features like facebook connect upfront allow them to use a demo version of
the app. This gives them a chance to have a play with the app before
committing to it / exposing their identity. That's particularly useful for HN
audience who will pop to your site in order to give you feedback, but also
useful to potential users who want to understand more about what your site is
than they read on the blurb on the front page.

2\. Read all feedback and decide what's relevant Ignoring feedback on
particular subject areas just creates a blind spot. Read all feedback and use
your own judgement to determine if the person has a point or not. They may be
wrong, you may be wrong - but at least if you read the feedback you'll have
considered things you may not have previously.

3\. Focus on the constructive feedback. Pay more attention to comments which
give a problem coupled with a solution - those pointing out issues with no
suggestions are more likely to be ranting (~generalisation) whilst those
singing your praises aren't giving you anything to improve what you've put out
there (though a few such comments are always nice to soothe the ego after
reading some of the harsher posts).

4\. Look for common themes in advice. If lots of people are giving the same
advice (e.g. I wouldn't pay $100 for this up front, but I would pay $10 a
month) consider what they're suggesting - whereas if one person's ranting that
something's too expensive you can probably ignore it. As with all advice it's
about using your judgement rather than ignoring the advice outright because
it's about xyz.

5\. Avoid asking for a credit card upfront Same as #1 - provide a demo option
which avoids the need for a credit card / perhaps give a first month free
option to allow use of the product without card details. If someone from HN
goes to check out your app and give you feedback, you shouldn't charge them
for their advice. If a potential user can't play with the app before paying
for it (or trusting you with their details having seen no more than the front
page) they'll also be less likely to join.

------
DigitalSea
My take on Hacker News feedback is don't ask people for feedback full stop.
This place used to be great for getting valuable feedback and you still get
decent feedback from some, but this place has become so negative that people
will nitpick and call you out on the smallest things.

Case in point was a submission from a few days ago called Unsplash
(<http://unsplash.com>) a guy gives away ten free high quality images you can
use for anything every ten days. The first ten images were geared towards
startups of his Macbook, iPhone and iPad. There were some, "Thank you, nice
work"'s and then there were people complaining about it breaching Apple style
guidelines because the phone wasn't face on, etc.

Take any feedback from this place with a grain of salt.

~~~
bountie
IIRC, that submitter ridiculed stock photos harshly in the original title and
so that's why people reacted with negativeness and also, the points about
Apples logo not being eligible for unapproved advertising is actuallynNi e to
know

------
danso
In the rare times when I've submitted something (that I've made) to HN,
whether it be a small project or just a blog post, I kind of relish criticism.
I don't think what I've created is all that great, in the scheme of things,
but the fact that I put energy into it and think it's worth notifying the
public means that at least at the subconscious level, I'm confident that what
I've made has _some_ merit.

So hearing praise is nice...I greatly appreciate it that people take the time
out of their busy days (or HN browsing, and what have you) to check out the
link and then take the time to say something positive...but the substance of
the praise isn't usually constructive, because if I've done something good
enough to praise, then theoretically, it's _natural_ that people like it for
the same reasons that I had for even making it.

But criticism...well, I usually self-critique pretty hard, but I don't think
you can ever impartially critique yourself. When people rail on the
shortcomings that I _know_ exist, even just putting up a defense or an
explanation is valuable to me, because I may have underestimated critical
flaws...but if my judgment was right, it's still a useful critical process to
re-examine those assumptions.

And of course, the gold standard is when you get criticism for things you
didn't even realize were problems...and that's immensely helpful. To use that
cliche saying, what's worse than harsh criticism is being ignored. And I think
it's much easier to psychologically motivate yourself in times of criticism
than it is to persevere when no one cares even enough to troll you.

And one last thought...the anonymous nature of the Internet does make it easy
for strangers to flame each other. But the other side of the coin is that the
personal nature of face-to-face contact often stifles much needed constructive
criticism. Maybe HN's level of constructive-to-trolling criticism isn't
perfect, but it's one of the better places to get free, useful analysis of
your work by likeminded people.

------
zalew
> If you don’t have a signup method other than Facebook, for the love of God,
> don’t put your app on HN until you add it. HN hates Facebook with a passion,
> and using only FB connect will make sure you don’t get any useful feedback
> on the actual app.

it's not only because of hate, but because people who use facebook not
necessarily want to share access to their profile to every random app.

------
6d0debc071
_3\. Focus on the positive feedback.

Figure out what people do like about your app and drill down. Remember, your
aim is not to please everyone. Your aim is to just find some people who love
your product, however crappy it may be._

The extreme example of this, however, is that you end up building your product
for one person. I mean that's an obvious failure mode, and in practice you'd
certainly hope to get more users than that, but at some point you've got to
decide what market you're going after beyond just, 'The people who like your
product just as it is.'

Ideally everyone would like your product. That's rarely going to happen, I
suspect, because people have different needs for most things - but generally
the thing with the more general appeal seems likely to win unless your thing
is worth an incredible amount to the few who like it.

------
mdesq
HN is great for getting exposure, provided you find the value of the exposure
& feedback worth the cost of collecting & processing it. The author's point
"Unless you’re selling something for which HN is going to be the main target
market ( _shudder_ )..." is good to keep in mind regarding all HN feedback,
not just pricing.

The feedback you should pay most attention to is that from your actual target
market. Heck, _most_ products in existence that generate tens of millions of
dollars per year in sales would be flogged mercilessly if posted to HN with a
request for feedback.

Screw all that. Go find actual customers and use their feedback to figure out
how to meet actual needs sufficiently to make some kind of transaction happen.
And if your target market is HN, then may God have mercy on your soul.

------
wtvanhest
Good idea for a post, I bet there will be some good advice that surfaces here
on the topic.

I think you are slightly off on the FB comment though. > _HN hates Facebook
with a passion, and using only FB connect will make sure you don’t get any
useful feedback on the actual app._

Actually, HN hates when developers use FB as the only method of signing in. I
haven't complained about it, but agree with HN on this topic. Two things
magnify the hate: 1) No discernible advantage of using FB for the user. 2)
Asking for permissions which the user does not understand why you are asking.

\+ People complain about too many share buttons.

------
Angostura
My suggestion: Simply ask for comments on the aspects that you want feedback
for. Tell the readership, "I'm particularly interested in people's thoughts on
X, Y, Z" If you don't value or want feedback on design or pricing tell the
readership: "The design and pricing information are in flux, so don't waste
too much time critiquing those"

If you post an app. I _will_ spend my time critiquing the design and it would
be annoying to do that, only to have my comments jettisoned out of hand.

------
Pxtl
Sounds like anything else in life:

1) People are cheap.

2) Bikeshedding.

Dunno why folks like to single out HN (or any other geek commenting venues). A
lot of people wandering by are thinking the same things HN commenters are -
people who are cheap or people who nitpick the easy-to-spot visual stuff...
they just don't have an easy and convenient venue to talk about that. When you
open yourself to feedback more directly by posting to a place like HN, all
that silent junk becomes vocal. Happens the same anywhere.

------
Semaphor
Interesting thing about the price is that usually I see many comments (for
very early products) saying the prices are fine or should be higher.

~~~
Ecio78
I was just going to post the same, I don't remember many "I want it but only
if you lower your price" but instead tons of "raise your price, damn it!" (and
not only from patio11).

Ok maybe some says "I won't buy it because I can do the same in a cheaper way"
but those won't buy your service/product either way

------
duiker101
so basically avoid any criticism, push hand to your ears and start chanting
LALALAALLALALALA? why even ask for feedback you are not willing to take
criticism? I agree HN sometime can be harsh, but I think this actually
reflects how the "world" will feel like about it.

~~~
revorad
It might help to actually read my article, otherwise you're saying exactly the
kind of stuff I'm telling people to ignore. Others in this thread have made
the same point I think you're trying to make in a much more civil and
agreeable manner.

~~~
crusso
Ah, very clever to test the GP.

You criticized him seeking to gauge whether or not he would properly ignore
your negative feedback.

Well played, sir.

------
monsterix
In my experience a nice way to handle HN feedback (or for that matter f/b from
anywhere) is to take it all home "as is". Then look at it later, say after a
few hours or days or weeks. That depends on how sore the embarrassment was.

One way to help yourself here is to remember the Reid Hoffman's quote:

" _If you're not embarrassed by the first version of your product, you've
launched too late._ "

I believe calmness and coolness of another time can reveal so much about what
people were trying to communicate early on. There is so much to learn about
your product/messaging that could have been, and that's where _negatively
coated_ feedback comes in handy. Call it shameless or thick skinned but be
prepared for all sorts of feedback.

------
taktix
If you rewire the brain to reframe criticism and rejection as positive, ala
Rejection Therapy[1], you'll learn more from each experience, and any negative
aspects will be "water off a duck's back" as the saying goes.

In fact, getting rejected feels like a win now. It feels like accomplishment
and relief.

[1] <http://rejectiontherapy.com>

------
corresation
I'm going to link this once more because I think it's pertinent -
[http://dennisforbes.ca/index.php/2013/06/02/hacker-news-
isnt...](http://dennisforbes.ca/index.php/2013/06/02/hacker-news-isnt-a-
support-group/)

And once again a post that is deeply dismissive of HN (basically "don't listen
to anything but hurrah's, and they're all cheap bastards anyways". Well if
you're going to butter us up first...), posted to HN.

There are a growing contingent of "positivity-only" champions who seem to
misunderstand the point of Show HNs. Is this some sort of generational thing?
Some sort of side-effect of the positive-feedback experiment?

~~~
Pxtl
Yeah, I don't get the "positivity only" thing. Obviously criticism should be
polite and friendly and encouraging of the good parts, but you see a problem
and you're being asked for feedback, you should say it.

I mean, has anybody ever been to an artist critique at an educational
institution? _artists_. Seriously, the group of people with the worst
reputation for being wishy-washy and aimless? They're freaking merciless in
critique, and this is accepted as normal, because it's understood that this is
healthy for your craft.

