

Is Junk Food Really Cheaper? - rafaelc
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/opinion/sunday/is-junk-food-really-cheaper.html

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JDShu
I'm pretty sure opportunity cost plays a part in the cheapness of fast food.
Saying that the time is there because Americans watch a couple of hours of tv
is really half-hearted analysis. Additionally, it's not only the time to cook,
but also the time needed to travel to grocery stores, which is actually more
inconvenient to get to than fast food restaurants in low income
neighbourhoods.

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lotharbot
I'm surprised by how often the "junk food is cheaper than healthy food" meme
gets repeated. It seems so obviously false, I can't understand why people
believe it when they hear it, and I really struggle to see how it can survive
after people give even a back-of-the-envelope calculation in response.

What am I missing? Is it that people think "healthy" means organic, out-of-
season produce? Are they assuming the cost of a whole bottle of ketchup for
each hamburger? Is there some experience people are having that makes this
"feel" true? I'd appreciate hearing from someone who believed it up until now
-- what was it about this idea that resonated with you?

~~~
chc
Here's how I think it works. Things that cost about $5:

\- One avocado

\- One loaf of whole grain bread

\- One package of low-cal tortillas

\- A bag of frozen broccoli

\- Five items off the dollar menu

One of these things by itself will feed your family, the others won't.

~~~
lotharbot
My question on the first four is, where the heck are you shopping? Those are
terrible prices. Are those really representative of what you see on a regular
basis?

Avocados supposedly hit "record" prices of $2.50 each this summer [0]. I get 3
loaves of whole grain bread for $5 at my local grocer. Frozen broccoli is 3-4
pounds for $5 [1]. Low cal tortillas can get up near $5, I guess, if you get
the fancy ones in a 10 or 12 pack.

Here are a few other things you can get for $5 (all taken from my local
grocery ad [2]):

\- 20 pounds of potatoes

\- 3.5 pounds of frozen chicken breasts

\- 3 pounds of ham

\- 5+ pounds of produce: tomatoes, carrots, pineapples, squash, etc.

\- 15 cans of store brand condensed soup

It seems to me like, if you're looking to feed the family, your $5 goes a lot
more on this list than it does on the dollar menu. A pound of ham, a pound of
squash and tomatoes, and a 10 pound bag of potatoes seems like a lot more food
than two burgers, two fries, and a tiny salad. It seems to me like, if you
can't do better than the dollar menu for feeding your family, you must suck at
shopping [3]. Do you think "sucking at shopping" is really what fuels this
meme?

[0] [http://www.thepacker.com/fruit-vegetable-news/Avocado-
demand...](http://www.thepacker.com/fruit-vegetable-news/Avocado-demand-
strong-as-Mexican-season-winds-down-123635079.html)

[1] <http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/FruitVegetableCosts/> has some fantastic
data

[2]
[http://www.benewsjournal.com/Kent%27s%20Ads/Kent%27sBRIGHAM0...](http://www.benewsjournal.com/Kent%27s%20Ads/Kent%27sBRIGHAM09-21.pdf)
\-- as for cost of living, prices out here are higher than they were in
Seattle. Housing is cheap, but groceries are not.

[3] one of my friends who was on government assistance really _did_ suck at
shopping. I once went with him and convinced him to replace 10 pounds of meat
(of the 20 in his cart) with a big bag of potatoes, as well as bulk carrots
and such. At the end of the month, he was delighted that he still had food
_and_ had a little money left over.

~~~
tptacek
It is absolutely not reasonable to assume you can buy "chicken breast" for
$1.40/lb. The coupon sale price for frozen Dominicks (Safeway) chicken breasts
in Chicago is $4/lb. A fresh pack of chicken breast --- again, the grocery
store crap --- will easily set you back $7 (which is approximately what Empire
runs /lb at Trader Joe's as well).

I don't have a strong opinion about whether junk food is "truly" cheaper than
"healthy" food (I cook every night and think it's generally a good idea for
every family to get into that habit). I think it's a kind of a moot point,
because what many poor families really lack is a history of having time in
their schedules to cook. Cooking is a skill built through repetition and
serving home cooked meals is a habit that is hard to establish.

What does bug me though is that every time this topic comes up, some nerd hits
Google and finds either (a) some ludicrously unrepresentative price sample
("you pay $6/lb for chicken? i can get new york strip for $5.50!") or (b) some
combination of beans and millet that will feed them just fine for a month on
$3.

It is not enough, to win this argument, for the math to come out slightly in
favor of home cooking. Home cooking needs to win on all three axes:

(i) price: home cooking has to be invariably comparable in price to McDonalds
to win,

(ii) convenience: it's got to be straightforward to cook _and to serve_ ,
bearing in mind that one of the hallmarks of low-income working families is
shift work, _and_

(iii) palatability: this doesn't mean "it has to taste as good as junk food"
(although realistically that is a factor); it means that you have to find _one
dish_ that you can serve _four people_ and have them all come away satisfied.

None of those are easy to accomplish. Erin & I work hard to achieve any two.
All three?

~~~
timsally
A brief anecdote. McKinnon's meat market in Cambridge sells boneless chicken
breasts for $2/lb and split chicken breasts for $1/lb. I'm not an expert and
can't speak to the quality, but it's really popular among residents here. I
have no idea whether this is an "unrepresentative price sample", but it's a
meat market in Boston a few blocks away from the red line. It's not exactly an
obscure shop. I've never been there, but I'm thinking about checking it out
this week as people keep telling me to go.

~~~
tptacek
Google says McKinnon's sells ground chicken for $1.49 --- which is itself an
_absurdly_ low price, lower than Costco, wildly lower than the supermarkets
--- a boneless chicken breast costs $0.50 more than that per pound?

~~~
m0nastic
It might just be regional variations. In Quincy (quite near Cambridge),
Roxie's is currently selling chicken breasts for 1.79/lb.

Roxie's is a local meat market where my family used to buy most of our meat
(the other place being an illegal meat auction which was held in a strip club
on Sundays...and yes, I'm being completely serious).

Here's their flyer: <http://www.roxiesofquincy.com/daily-add/daily.pdf>

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tzs
I wonder if we should make basic cooking a required class in high school? Even
if people who would otherwise eat fast/junk food every night would cook at
home just a couple nights a week, it would probably make a noticeable
improvement in our overall health.

There are some basic dishes that are very quick and easy to make, and very
cheap. For example, consider spaghetti. A box of dry spaghetti is cheap and
has a very long shelf life, and is quick and easy to cook (boil water, drop in
spaghetti, turn heat down slightly--read HN on your mobile device for 10
minutes, occasionally stirring the spaghetti). Drain, put on plate. Pour on
some bottled sauce that you've heated up (go ahead and use the microwave).

Congratulations--you've now made an alternative to your usual Big Mac, in 10
minutes, and it cost you under $0.50.

~~~
tptacek
They teach basic cooking in middle school in Chicago.

Much is made of food availability and "food deserts" and the like, but the
real issue is time. Even "very quick" meals take more time & effort than fast
food.

It's particularly the case when you're cooking for a family. Fast food is
practically guaranteed to be palatable, but taking a box of dry spaghetti and
making it palatable to 4 different palates takes some doing.

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noahc
I was talking with a German about what he thought America's national rallying
cry was. He said, "In America, everyone is an aristocrat"

He pointed out that we all drive big cars and in Germany you can't drive a big
car without means. He also pointed out that in America we all hunt (remember
the kings deer) and fish as if it were a God given right.

I think to some extent the fast food issue is the same here. We like fast
food, because people are serving us. We don't need to cook. It goes back to
our desire for everyone to be an Aristocrat or at least feel that way.

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Aspirina
As far as I concern, there is always the short and long term time analyses.
And in The short run yes, but this short run takes only 5 to 15 minutes. The
risks for your health are extremely high producing a higher price for all of
us.

