
Ask HN: How do you know when to quit your startup? - zxcvvcxz
Another interesting question might be: what factors have caused you to quit your startup before (that you co-founded), and do you think it was the right decision?
======
ghenne
I quit when it stopped being fun. It had gone public and there were a couple
of hundred employees. I was in the office on New Year's Day, celebrating the
fact that I had been into work every day that year. I was flying somewhere
twice a week, and spent all my time talking to lawyers, bankers, accountants
and brokers. Customers only when they were threatening lawsuits. Conflict with
another cofounder didn't help. My father's passing was one more message.

I started as a creative person, programming. I realized I had to go back to
that to be happy. So I typed an email to my cofounders on the spot. Three days
later, I was out of there.

I was fortunate to remain good friends with most of my cofounders and key
employees. I've had a blast in the succeeding years - making a better income
most years and getting to do things I enjoy. Having time for a great wife and
kids makes it even better.

It was the best decision I ever made.

~~~
kohanz
_I 've had a blast in the succeeding years - making a better income most years
and getting to do things I enjoy_

Are you saying that you co-founded a startup that went public, grew to a
couple of hundred employees, and it wasn't a financial windfall for you? I'm
honestly curious if you're willing to provide more details.

~~~
ghenne
Think of a Balance Sheet vs. Profit and Loss. Yes, I had a good base of assets
after I left. But after that, I wanted to make sure I made more than I spent.
Too many founders get lucky and blow it all. Think about sustainability.

Doing what you want, having no employees, and generating enough income for all
your fun is a worthy goal!

------
zackmorris
For me, two decades without making money was probably too conservative, YMMV.
My heart started going out of my shareware business in the early 2000s when it
became more about keeping up with Apple's frequent changes and API deprecation
than making games. Technology cycles in the 90s lasted maybe 3-5 years but
today that's shrunk to maybe 1 year or even 6 months. So I have abandoned the
notion of sustainability in my development, and instead try to focus on
fundamentals, basically paring down my plan to the point where I could imagine
working on it half asleep or having never seen it before. Because I know that
in just a year or two, it will be harder to resurrect the code than just
rewrite it in whatever wizbang methodology comes along. Case in point:
Node.js, Swift, Rust, Go, Unity, etc etc etc. Basically it’s become easier to
wait for an API to arrive than write one yourself. That was a bitter pill for
me to swallow as a back end developer.

The other big deal breaker for me was loss of autonomy. When the code begins
to rot (as it always does) then someone has to go in and renovate it. Since I
was the hacker, that task generally fell on my shoulders. It got to the point
where the entirety of my time was spent on damage control. I had initially
enjoyed that kind of work, but once it became an expectation, I lost my
passion for it.

So the most important lesson I learned is that if you are being compelled to
perform work by others, rather than governing your own fate, it’s time to
leave:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQrPVmcgJJk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQrPVmcgJJk)

~~~
soup10
It's funny that code rot is so inevitable. Some people think that the code
just needs to be written and designed very well to avoid technical debt. But
it always rots in some way. Even if the code is never changed or amended and
no new complexity added, it rots because api's, platforms and basically the
tech that surrounds and it relies on changes.

~~~
jimmaswell
>it rots because api's, platforms and basically the tech that surrounds and it
relies on changes.

The whole point of standards is for that not to happen

~~~
jlegler
I don't agree with that statement. Standards are there to make development
easier via an agreed upon "standard" way of doing things. Code rot has nothing
to do with that. Things change all the time. No amount of standards stops
change. Your code is rotting the second you're "done" with it, simply because
everything else around it is still moving. Just accept that and learn to write
code that is easily testable so that you can make your changes as necessary
and have some confidence that you haven't broken anything in the process.
Trying to write rot-free code is pointless. Trying to write code that is easy
to update and repair is a worthwhile goal.

~~~
jimmaswell
No. An FTP client written in 1987 works today because of standards. I meam
standards that define how the application interacts with other applications
and input.

~~~
ProblemFactory
That approach works for free command-line tools written for technology
specialists.

But not if you are trying to make money with an app for the "general public",
for example on the mobile app stores or oldschool shareware. Keeping it
working is not enough, it must keep up with the latest trends in design and
APIs that become available for extra features.

The old APIs and design guidelines could be a perfectly precise standard that
still works - but it's the _old_ standard when users expect new ones.

------
swombat
When you're asking yourself whether it's time to draw a line and move on, you
know exactly when the time for doing it was: a year ago.

I've never heard anyone say that they felt they quit their startup too soon.
I've heard many (myself included) complain that they stuck it out way too
long.

There's plenty of other ideas out there. Don't waste your years on something
that's not a clear winner.

~~~
tkiley
I almost quit my startup too soon.

In February 2009, I quit my job to go full time on my startup in anticipation
of closing an angel round. The next week, the financing fell through.

For the next six months, I was teetering on the edge of ramen profitable -
with very little ramen and very little revenue growth. I seriously considered
quitting, and in retrospect, there was really no compelling evidence
indicating that I shouldn't quit.

Today, my company is doing quite well - we are 100% bootstrapped, profitable,
high seven figures of revenue, 34 employees, and good continued growth
prospects.

Looking back on 2009, I still feel like I should have quit at that point; I
got lucky by sticking it out. I got lucky because I found it easier to muster
the courage to keep trying than muster the courage to walk away.

I almost quit too soon, and every day I feel incredibly lucky that I didn't.

~~~
lquist
Thanks for sticking with InQuicker! It's a great product!

------
snoonan
Perhaps you can follow a basic rational investing principle: If, knowing what
you know now, would you invest at the current stage/valuation? If no, dump it.
If yes, buy more.

------
volaski
Read this book: [http://www.amazon.com/Dip-Extraordinary-Benefits-Knowing-
Sti...](http://www.amazon.com/Dip-Extraordinary-Benefits-Knowing-Stick-
ebook/dp/B000QCSA54/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1404579941&sr=8-1&keywords=the+dip)

It helped me make the decision when i was struggling with my startup. The
problem with mindlessly persisting is you are not aware of what you're doing.
You need to step back and think about why you're staying in. After that if you
still want to go on, you should. Otherwise, no.

~~~
mark_l_watson
+1 thanks for the recommendation. I just bought it as an audio book.

I am more or less retired. I still help a few consulting customers
occasionally, but it am dedicating my energies to a few tech projects that I
view as long shots. I hope this book puts me in the right frame of mind to
make good decisions on where best to apply myself.

------
paulbaumgart
When you figure out why it's a bad idea. That way you ensure you've actually
learned something from the experiment, and it gives you closure.

------
ChuckFrank
After we failed to get into YC, my partner quit when he got a salary offer
that was too good to refuse.

The distance between now and that offer within the startup was too long to
imagine based upon how successful we had been independently.

It was always about odds. 10:1 at 10x with us, or 1:1 at 1x with them.

His girlfriend had a lot to say on the matter. She needed a home.

I wish his quitting never happened, but I was powerless to stop it. And I
can't blame him, though I wouldn't have made the same choice had the
circumstances been reversed, I understand why he did.

------
sbntn
When they stop paying you. Seriously, don't waste your time hoping for the
best.

*Worked for two startups that couldn't make payroll. CEOs promised money was around the corner so I kept working. The money never came.

~~~
csbrooks
Were you a cofounder, though? Sounds like you were an employee.

~~~
Chronic29
Not everyone is the CEO/CTO of a startup.

~~~
saraid216
Question specifies that, though.

~~~
rahimnathwani
The question specifies co-founder. It doesn't specify CEO/CTO.

------
fukafka
I wanted to post a similar question.

My brief history : co-founder of 3 "start-ups". One totally disappeared. The
second one managed to get off the ground and pay the founders basic salary,
but not beyond that. It's now in slow decline. I'm still involved just enough
to collect the little salary I can from it. 3rd one is running for a couple of
years, and feels like heading in the right direction, but it still seems some
time before it can even pay basic salary to the founding team. Unless the
hockey-stick growth suddenly hits.

None of those startups look like the kind that would make an 'exit' or get
investment. More like a lifestyle-business. Which means shares are pretty
meaningless and are unlikely to ever be. But a good reason to stick around is
some level of independence and hopefully an ok salary some day (but that's not
given).

Any tips to help find the right direction?

------
agotterer
I shutdown my startup of two years a few months back. We were full time and
bootstrapped, minus a few thousand from an accelerator program. We shut down
when our money started running low and the third pivot didn't come together
the way we hoped. We felt like we were finally heading in the right direction,
but theres was still a lot to do before we could see some initial traction.
Some could argue that if we kept at it at a few more months or raised some
money maybe we could have had a better perspective. But we were adamant on not
raising money and pivoting was getting old. In some ways it did feel a little
premature. But I don't know how many times we could say "just 3 more months"
before it was meaningless.

It takes a long time to build a successful business and maybe two years wasn't
enough time. But over time we became less excited about the vision and the
space started to get very crowded. We spent two weeks evaluating all of our
options and outs before we decided it was over. It was a sad day when we
finally decided to close shop, but my co-founder and I both seemed to be on
the same page. I don't know if theres an exact right time to shutdown. For us
it just felt right.

------
ehurrell
I was considering writing something about this but wasn't sure if there was an
audience. Startups are a gung-ho never-say-die world where quitting is very
much frowned upon but the reality can be tough. You can face a lot of
forgivable difficulties (I once had to entirely rewrite our backend over the
course of a weekend because the CTO had written it in a language 2/3rds of the
tech team didn't use, we repeatedly delayed MVP launch for reasons that
wouldn't have stopped feedback).

You can get over all of these, work around them and try and make sure the same
mistake doesn't happen twice, but the breaking point is really when you stop
trusting your co-founders. At that point there really is no other choice.
Since leaving and getting distance, lamenting with others, not having followup
matters resolved professionally etc I've seen that it was the best decision I
could have made.

------
inklesspen
For me it was when I ran out of savings, sold all my stocks, ran out of that
money, and still didn't have a shipped product. My cofounders are still going
at it, and I wish them all the best, but we spent the critical months of our
startup designing and redesigning a thing without ever getting user feedback.

For all the other folks out there at Google or other largish companies, who
are considering quitting and forming a startup: Don't do it until you have at
least once seen a project through from conception to launch.

~~~
ehurrell
Redesigning without feedback is so painful to experience, can completely
understand.

------
Ixiaus
Two times, I've split.

First: when it was clear my co-founder and I no longer got along well and she
wanted to take the product / business in a direction I wasn't excited about.

Second: when I realized all of my extremely hard work rebooting the company
only amounted to a possible merger being executed behind my back with
"promises" for more / better ownership (#1 mistake on my part was taking
promises and not being firm about contract boundaries).

------
flipped_bit
If you are a co-founder, and you are being side-lined, and you have no
recourse to get back into the driving seat, it is time to go. This can happen
if the other founder secured the funds and has the support from the board.

Your only reason to be a founder/co-founder is to be on the driving seat -
otherwise why bother with all the downsides of being in a startup?

------
pbiggar
In my case, there were so many things suggesting that we quit that I'm
surprised we didn't sooner: [http://blog.paulbiggar.com/archive/why-we-shut-
newstilt-down...](http://blog.paulbiggar.com/archive/why-we-shut-newstilt-
down/)

------
TheMakeA
Startup = Growth[1]. If you can't find growth, pivot or quit it.

[1]
[http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html)

------
majani
From my experience two years is a reasonable time for a startup to find a
viable business model. If it hasn't by then, you really should quit

------
capdiz
I would suggest reading Ryan Carson's blog. there's a good post with the same
title as your post. hope it's helpful.

~~~
matiasp
[http://ryancarson.com/post/25041202750/when-to-kill-your-
sta...](http://ryancarson.com/post/25041202750/when-to-kill-your-startup)

------
lily2014
It depends on how do you think of your startup. Is it a occasional lose, or a
inevitable lose. Does it still have its Creativity?

------
BillFranklin
Take a look at Startups Anonymous, it's a nice little forum for founders -
they answer these questions honestly.

------
AliciaMorga
When you're stuck with a loser, it's time to stop.

------
dreadsword
Never surrender!

~~~
wwwwwwwwww
this is terrible advice

