
Fewer foreign entrepreneurs say they need the U.S. - jackgavigan
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2016/09/13/fewer-foreign-entrepreneurs-say-they-need-the-u-s-thats-a-problem/
======
r2dnb
I think that their claim that the country is losing more and more talent is
realistic. I am one those who weighted going to this country to establish my
company, but after a failure to find an acceptable immigration option, I went
to the UK instead.

I think that what's lacking in the american system is the recognition of
"normal" entrepreneurs, those making $200 dollars at a time, and growing their
high-potential tech-product business from $0 to $1M in 5 years. In the UK, and
in most places in Europe, an immigrant can take a job, change job, build a
business on the side, and then manage the business full-time. In the american
system, this is not possible :

\- If you come as a worker you are stuck in the H1B system where changing
employer is a pain, starting a company requires sophisticated immigration
layers, and the path to the green card often takes one decade or more - which
entrepreneur with a burning idea in his mind would accept that ?

\- Otherwise, coming as an entrepreneur directly, requires $$$ which young
people with creativity and energy simply do not have yet.

The american system works fine as soon as you are backed by venture capital
but is at present time not very welcoming for creative and talented people
without deep pockets. This lack of exhaustivity is the issue. As far as I am
concerned, I've been successful in the UK and am setting up an operation in
the US now that I have the dollars. However I have decided to keep my
headquarters and the bulk of my operations in the UK. Therefore I totally
understand the feelings of the people quoted in the article who applied for a
US visa a few years ago and are today saying "Why would I even go there ?"

The US should really not underestimate the long-term destructive potential of
this phenomenon.

This situation is a dramatic departure from the original immigration spirit of
the US which used to welcome creative immigrants with $0 in their pockets
dreaming of success. These people were largely influential in building the
wealthy nation we know today but the country seems to be kind of losing what
made them great in the first place. Perhaps this is the time to Make America
Great Again.

(Sorry, too tempting)

~~~
refriedbeans3
I don't disagree with many of your points, but I think perhaps what is missing
is perspective. Playing a bit of devil's advocate:

> I think that what's lacking in the american system is the recognition of
> "normal" entrepreneurs, those making $200 dollars at a time, and growing
> their high-potential tech-product business from $0 to $1M in 5 years

This doesn't move the needle in the biggest economy in the world. That's not
even a viable business in most cities with high cost of living. At that rate
you probably wouldn't even be able to pay yourself a decent wage, let alone
hire anyone, within the first 2-3 years. Why would the United States want to
let you in where there are more promising businesses/entrepreneurs on the path
to $100m/year companies within 5 years?

~~~
yclept
To give some idea of how small a 1M company is, a non-chain Mexican restaurant
in the suburbs of Virginia was making 3M / year.

~~~
jakozaur
There were niche startup doing niche programming language (BASIC) with less
revenue that ended up being Microsoft.

~~~
sidlls
Is that an accurate comparison? Gates was born into weatlh and a pre-existing
social network. His company's success has a foundation of winning the genetic
lottery.

~~~
ArkyBeagle
It's reasonably accurate. IMO, MS grew because of DOS.

They were hoping Gary Kildall's C/PM would be the OS for the IBM PC, and only
leveraged DOS "to save the language business."

It's not clear how much of a factor Gates' parents' wealth and social network
was in this process. Yeah, his Mom was on the board of IBM but Microsoft was
an established brand already.

~~~
sidlls
His company didn't spring into being without a history. He had access to
educational and tutoring resources, specifically technology related resources,
his entire life. I'd say it's very clear his parents' circumstances were a
huge factor in his early successes, and arguably much more important than
those successes were to later ones.

------
calvinbhai
I'm really glad US has such tight immigration norms. As someone from India, it
is great the see that those innovators who couldn't get visas, are innovating
outside US and living a much better life. why move be an alien in US, when you
can live in home country and innovate?

I think the author (also an Indian turned American) has been making this point
for quite a few years. Not all, but some of America's loss is China and
India's gain.

India and China are so vastly different markets, that most of the products
made for US really dont fit outside US. And innovating in China / India truly
help these countries!

~~~
realz
> why move be an alien in US

I think you may have missed the whole point about USA. Nobody is an alien in
this country, a lot of people would life to make you feel that way, but I know
a lot of people from Sikkim regularly get asked where in China are they from.

~~~
rayiner
An immigrant will always be somewhat alien. I moved to the U.S. when I was
five, and I'm pretty Americanized. But most of my family is still 10,000 miles
away, and I never had much connection with my grandparents, aunts and uncles,
or cousins. Indeed, I often feel anxious and self-conscious around them
because of our significant differences in values and worldview. At the same
time, I still don't _really get_ some things Americans do ( _e.g._ treating
dogs like people).

Meanwhile, my wife's family came over to Oregon on the wagon trains. Almost
all her grandparents, cousins, etc. live within a few hours' drive in Oregon
and Washington. If you drive along the pacific coast highway, you'll pass a
scenic overlook named after her family, marking where their homestead was
before the government took it to build the highway. You can see the lighthouse
where her ancestors were lighthouse keepers.

America is probably the most welcoming place in the world for immigrants, but
that doesn't change the fact that immigrating means basically severing
yourself from your roots to come live in a very different country. Many people
would not make that sacrifice if they had adequate opportunities in their own
homeland.

~~~
Grishnakh
>At the same time, I still don't really get some things Americans do (e.g.
treating dogs like people).

Do you mean having pets at all? I'm pretty sure that's not at all unique to
Americans; most dog breeds I've heard of came from Europe or Asia.

Personally, as an American, I don't understand why so many people love dogs so
much either, but not all Americans are dog people. We're basically divided
into a few different camps, the biggest two being "dog people" and "cat
people" (I'm the latter). There's a few other weirdos out there: "bird people"
are the strangest. And definitely stay far, far away from any "horse women"
(trust me on this one: do NOT date a woman who loves horses!).

Anyway, in all seriousness, pet ownership is not a uniquely American
phenomenon by any means. Having cats as revered pets goes back to ancient
Egypt, after all. And to my knowledge, having dogs as pets goes back to the
stone age.

~~~
rayiner
Not just pet ownership, but e.g. "bring your dog to work" policies. I also
find it strange how highly dogs are valued relative to kids (at least among
millennials), but also how over-the-top Americans are about how much effort
they invest in both pet ownership and parenting.

~~~
Grishnakh
I have never personally seen a company with "bring your dog to work" policies,
and I've worked at quite a few. I've never been to a business where it was
normal for people to bring their pets in, except for pet stores and
veterinarians. I've heard of "bring your dog to work" places, but I suspect
it's just some hipster-run startups that are like this. It is not even
remotely representative of American business culture.

I think you're been paying too much attention to some small group of Americans
and assuming they represent them all. I can't really speak for Millenials and
their dogs vs. kids attitudes, but a lot of people do have dogs, but again I
don't think it's unusual; Europeans have kept dogs as pets for millennia.

The helicopter parenting, OTOH, is an epidemic in America these days. Now it
seems kids under the age of 10 can't go anywhere alone without the cops being
called and parents getting in trouble for "child abandonment". It certainly
wasn't like that when I was that age in the 1980s.

~~~
rayiner
It's not just hipster startups, but also some major companies:
[http://www.mnn.com/family/pets/photos/10-companies-that-
let-...](http://www.mnn.com/family/pets/photos/10-companies-that-let-you-
bring-your-dog-to-work/google#top-desktop) (Google, Ben & Jerry's, Autodesk,
Amazon).

And dogs are kept as pets everywhere (including Bangladesh, where I am from),
but don't feature as prominently in peoples' lives. My Facebook feed is full
of pictures and comments about peoples' dogs. People let their dogs sleep in
their beds, favor restaurants with outdoor seating so they can bring their dog
along, etc.

~~~
Grishnakh
Those companies are not even remotely representative of American workplaces.
Especially Ben & Jerry's; WTF??

Also, I'd sincerely like to know how they deal with employees who are allergic
to dogs. Not to mention dogs shitting in the office, barking, getting in
fights with other dogs, etc. Pit bulls in particular are infamous for
attacking and killing other (smaller) dogs, and of course some "pit bull
advocate" is going to insist on bringing her pit bull to work to prove to
everyone how "sweet" he his, and then act shocked when it kills her coworker's
Chihuahua, and worse she'll blame the Chihuahua owner somehow. Honestly,
letting people bring dogs to work is one of the stupidest company policies
I've ever heard of.

You're not going to get much of an argument from me about dogs; I honestly
don't know why people like them so much. But as I said before, I'm one of
those "cat people", so of course I'm not going to understand why people want
to have a big, smelly, slobbering animal around that can't even figure out how
to take a shit in a relatively clean and hygienic manner. Cats are far more
sensible pets: they're smart enough to _always_ crap in a litter box where
it's easily managed, they're small (even the rare huge breeds aren't over 20
pounds or so), they don't smell (because of their fanatical cleaning habits
and the chemistry of their saliva), and the only downside is the dander is an
allergen to some people. You can even get automatic litter boxes these days
which make the bathroom part really, really easy.

But I do think you're overblowing things a lot. As I said, I've never seen a
workplace myself that allowed dogs (I never worked at Google, just like most
of the nation; their ridiculous interview process keeps most qualified people
out anyway), and I very rarely see a restaurant that allows them at all, in or
out, or where people have them. In fact, I can't even remember the last time I
saw someone with a dog at a restaurant, except for one time about 6 months ago
inside a Panera where a guy had his service animal (which is something
entirely different; very few people get those; I'm pretty sure this guy was
visually impaired IIRC). The main places I see these dog-lovers out in public
with their dogs is on hiking trails, at parks, etc.

Don't forget that Facebook is not a good way to judge peoples' lives. FB is
infamous for having people post all kinds of crap on there trying to show how
wonderful their lives are and one-up their friends, and it's driven a lot of
people into depression because they see all these happy, smiling pictures.
Real life isn't like that; what you see on FB is a tiny non-random snapshot or
worse an act, or the shameless self-promotion of a vocal minority. Of course,
all the dog proponents who can't spend 30 seconds without thinking about their
dog are going to post a bunch of crap about dogs and their dog and how
wonderful dogs are and "look! here we are going somewhere with our dog!" and
"this restaurant sucks!! they wouldn't let us bring our dog in!!", and you see
this and now you're thinking the whole country is like that. My advice: figure
out who all these idiot dog-loving people on your FB feed are, and de-friend
them, for the sake of your own sanity. Do you really want to see all kinds of
dog-related posts on there every time you log in?

------
pzh
The author of the article, Vivek Wadhwa, is one of the most famous academic
proponents of the H-1B visa. When I read the title, I initially thought the
article would be about innovation and the startup climate in SV, but as I was
progressing through, it confirmed my suspicions--it was another veiled opinion
piece for increasing H-1B visa numbers. Maybe there is some value to his
observations and arguments, but other readers should be aware what the
ultimate goal is here...

~~~
timewarrior
I think you guys are missing the point. I know he normally is in favor of H1
but not this article.

He mentions two mains things in his post: 1\. Give a path of Green Card to
entrepreneurs.

2\. Do not bound h1b employees to current jobs. Right now US is allowing quasi
slavery by bounding workers to their jobs and making it really difficult to
switch. If employers couldn't enslave h1 workers it wouldn't be economically
viable for them and they are get lot less h1 workers.

I have worked at startups all of my career, built the biggest social network
to come out of India, built another startup, sold it to Dropbox, currently
head the innovation group at a Fortune 15. All I want to do is build startups.
But on H1 I can't hold majority stake in my own company, and because of my
previous experience I don't want to do a startup again on h1.

It will take me 20 years to get a Green Card on EB-2. I am trying for EB-1 but
even with my background it will be difficult. If I don't get a Green Card by
next year I will move out of US.

I am also discouraging any Entrepreneurs I know in India against a move to US.

I sincerely hope that the situation improves.

~~~
alex_hirner
> I am trying for EB-1 but even with my background it will be difficult.

If you have probed this possibility already, what is the evidence that speaks
against you reaching EB-1A status? I assume making three out of the ten
categories won't be problematic, but I myself am unclear about qualitative
judgments in totality.

What I do know is, that the many EB-1 grantees from any YC batch were
decimated to 50% sometime around 2014.

~~~
timewarrior
thanks @alex_hirner. I have applied for EB-1 EA. Doing whatever I can to get
it and will find out the result next year.

However I have significant resources at my disposal right now, which many
other entrepreneurs wouldn't have - supporting the point raised by Vivek
Wadhwa. If I had a Green Card, I wouldn't have sold to Dropbox and would be
doing running a startup right now :)

Didn't quite understand your last line. Did it mean that 50% of YC batch
applicants for EB-1 got it?

Thanks once again!

~~~
alex_hirner
An E-2 investor visa could also do the trick in case of affluent resources. I
wouldn't know about limits on the controlling stake though.

> Did it mean that 50% of YC batch applicants for EB-1 got it?

That was unclear of me. Actually, the ratio of granted vs. rejected
applications dropped by around 50% (from a discussion in Feb this year). Thus,
I don't know how many applied for in total in a typical cohort.

~~~
timewarrior
Indians aren't part of the E-2 treaty.

Based on your last line, I guess number of granted have gone down.

Doing all I can to get EB-1 EA. Let's see how it goes.

------
mhurron
The idea that everything must be in California to matter dying is a good thing
for everyone except those in California who refuse to change. Maybe people
will realize you can do most technology jobs from anywhere in the world.

No one is at the top forever, that includes the US.

~~~
bsenftner
It is very clear that the US is no longer the top in many areas, and is
slipping fast. The USA is actively rearranging the deck chairs in what is
going to be a monumental Titanic the rest of the world will enjoy watching
sink. As a "leader nation" we've been deplorable in many of the aspects that
matter. Few outside the USA will shed many tears, as we've been ruthless
towards other nations not subservient to our corporations. Yeah, we do just
enough good to pass, and not much more, and then only when it serves our
corporate masters.

~~~
sremani
US will not sink during my life time (2050?). The odds are so decked in US's
favor. As Ian Bremmer said, what makes America great is, two oceans, canada
and mexico.

The turmoil in Eurasian continent and Population explosion in Africa when you
compared to improved peace in Americas. I will bet by shirt on Americas in
general and USA in particular. No, Sir China is not going to touch US in
military terms during my life time and probably have some economic benchmarks
they may dominate but per-capita will suck. For all the hew and cry, China is
middle-income nation with 17 neighbors, Middle East even with Petro-dollars in
basket case, Europe is demographically falling and struggling with
Immigration.

America will remain the power to reckon for next 50 years if not more.

~~~
Z1nfandel
You're in for a rude awakening if you think "China is not going to touch US in
military terms during my life time"

Most people believe that the US will always have the better fighter planes,
the better missiles, or the better tanks. In reality, we are about to be
parity. They will be stronger in some aspects, we will be stronger in others.

If you don't believe me, go check out the Chinese J-20, J-31 aircraft. Their
DF-41 ICBM. The Type-99 tank.

They have been catching, and fast. They already have some systems that are
better than ours. They also have twice as many
soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines.

Source: Former Intelligence Analyst.

~~~
sremani
2050 : their Navy will not be close to US. Currently their Navy is not even
close to Japan. Power projection on Earth in 20th century and 21st century is
about Maritime. That may change. Chinese may finally master flying saucers and
make some of the previous structure irrelevant, but that is unlikely for now.

But if I you were interested in countries and power, I would not focus on J-20
or J-31 but the current purges and anti-corruption drive in China. The most
interesting question about China in 2035 is, how will communist party hold
power now on.

~~~
Z1nfandel
Their Navy will be closer than you think. Take a look at the rate they are
building ships. Their destroyer squadrons (Luyang II and III are amazing
ships) have been rapidly growing, as well as their replinishment ships, subs,
frigates, and smaller boats. These DDGs and supply ships are the foundations
of a CSG. You're right they only have one carrier at the moment, and its only
used for training. But this is their modus operandi: Buy something already
built, reverse engineer it, tailor to our needs, mass produce. They have 30
years to manufacture 10 more carriers (and associated ships) to reach the
power project with the current US Navy. If they continue at their current
rate, they will easily reach that.

I don't know where you're getting the notion that the Chinese navy doesn't
compare to Japan, because its stronger/larger in every measurable way. Are you
accounting for the 30+ ships the Chinese navy has been building every year
recently? I would agree with that statement six years ago.

You are absolutely correct: The most interesting question is can they sustain
their current output. Will the party hold up?

------
Jimmy
>handsets without headphone jacks long before Apple did

This is not an innovation. Not every change is an innovation. In fact, this is
the straw that broke the camel's back for me, and I intend on never buying an
Apple product again.

~~~
pat2man
I'm predicting Android manufacturers will follow suit within 2 years.

~~~
boodm
The problem is, the manufacturers will not be able to follow suit with
thunderbolt. So... what will device makers use? The BIG problem is they will
likely not even use the same "standard" across Android devices... what is a
headphones manufacturer to do?

~~~
bsder
> The BIG problem is they will likely not even use the same "standard" across
> Android devices... what is a headphones manufacturer to do?

USB Type-C has provisions for putting audio directly onto auxiliary pins
exactly for this purpose.

However, I suspect most won't get rid of the standard audio jack without a
good reason.

~~~
niftich
I was surprised by this but this is indeed the case. [1][2][3][4]

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/4nsp5p/usb_type_c_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/4nsp5p/usb_type_c_and_35mm_audio_misconceptions/)
[2] [http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/](http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/)
[3] [http://i.imgur.com/y6xCS9u.png](http://i.imgur.com/y6xCS9u.png) [4]
[http://www.anandtech.com/show/10273/intel-proposes-to-use-
us...](http://www.anandtech.com/show/10273/intel-proposes-to-use-usb-typec-
cables-to-connect-headsets-to-mobile-devices)

~~~
bsder
USB Type-C is pretty amazing. It's effectively full-duplex ethernet, power-
over-ethernet, and some low-speed garnish all wrapped into a single reversible
connector.

~~~
bduerst
Yeah, it's just too bad there aren't many quality multi-purpose hubs/adapters
yet.

------
mbostleman
If the US wants, it can a) start growing it's own tech people instead of being
constrained by a lack of them, b) make immigration easier for tech people in
the meantime, and c) stop focusing on bringing manufacturing back and focus
instead on moving people's skills up the value chain so that they can innovate
as opposed to stamping and assembling the innovations of others.

Also, not sure that putting two cameras on a phone and removing the headphone
jack is exactly innovation. Those seem more like features. The Internet and
mobile devices are real innovation imo.

~~~
android521
You idea is so protectionist. It is like saying US should not bring in great
scientist and just focus on mass producing within the county. And you wouldn't
have Einstein. The point is no matter how much you try to force produce
talents within your country , there will always more great talents in other
parts of the world. US was great because it is the centre of the universe and
all the top talents want to come here. Now it is no longer the case.
Gradually, US is losing this big advantage.

~~~
briandear
I don't think the majority of H1 visa holders could be considered "top
talent." Perhaps "cheaper talent."

We eliminate the Tata-style H1B abuses and actually make H1B for TOP talent
and not cheap talent, then those future Einsteins can come to the US. Your
average "top talent" isn't going to work for Tata or Infosys. They're going to
apply directly or they're going to be recruited.

Ted Cruz proposed at $100K minimum salary for H1's. Not a bad way to solve
this problem. $100K is nothing for actual top talent, but it certainly means
that the incentive to outsource low level IT to H1 companies is much much
less.

The problem isn't the lack of talent, it's the lack of companies willing to
pay for the talent. You can hire anybody you want if you're willing to pay
enough. Start offering $250K for a starting salary for an engineer -- you'll
have hundreds of resumes within the hour and probably one or two would be top
talent. That same job at $80k -- dozens of resumes and probably not a single
one that could be considered top talent.

~~~
asldjhcakjhc
.

~~~
HillaryBriss
don't forget doctors, especially cardiologists and oncologists

------
mattnewton
Haven't finished the article, but it boggles my mind how anyone would be
afraid of Chinese competition because Apple copied wechat and removed the
headphone jack second. The features they are talking about where available in
most other messaging apps, notably Facebook messenger, ever since Line and
other Korean [Edit: LINE is Japanese] apps introduced it (there may be an even
earlier case, it has been around so long). Apple plays catch up from time to
time, nothing new to see here. And removing the headphone jack is not
innovation.

Will continue reading the article, but if this is what America thinks is
innovation, that's the dangerous thing, not China.

Besides, I'm as patriotic as the next American, but if the Chinese start
making better products and we start copying them for a change is that really a
bad thing besides some jingoist pride? Letting Chinese companies foot the R&D
bill in a few cases would certainly be cheaper. As long as we continue to
attempt to compete, and don't throw our hands up because they had chat
stickers before one of our American companies.

~~~
arcanus
> I'm as patriotic as the next American, but if the Chinese start making
> better products and we start copying them for a change is that really a bad
> thing

No, it would be a _great_ thing. Competition is always good, that is
practically an axiom of capitalism. I expect serious competition to enhance
R+D, not diminish it. No CEO buys back shares or increases dividends when they
have a serious competitor. They pour money into R+D, new equipment and
strategic acquisitions.

~~~
gaius
Competition is good.

Losing a competition is not so good. History is littered with countries,
cultures, civilizations that lost. And I suspect there were many more that are
simply forgotten until an archaeologist digs them up!

~~~
arethuza
Well the UK was the leading world power up to about a century ago and we've
managed to survive loss of pre-eminence in a _reasonably_ good state.

~~~
rm_-rf_slash
To paint with a very broad brush, the U.K. would hardly be in the position it
is in if it hadn't imperialized so heavily.

English is the world's dominant language, meaning everyone else has to learn
English, instead of the English having to learn Chinese, Polish, Spanish, etc.

The old connections make London a prime financial center, and even that future
is questionable given Brexit and the prominence of alternatives like New York
and Singapore.

The UK's edge and reach comes from its cultural products. Once the bankers
have gone and the techies find better qualities of life away from London's
shuttered clubs and the UK's draconian survellience and drug laws, all that's
left is James Bond and Harry Potter.

I hope I don't come across as being too pessimistic about England's future,
but just as it is in a reasonably good state now, it could just as easily be
gearing up for a nasty nosedive.

~~~
arethuza
[As a Scot I am legally obliged to point out that England != UK] ;-)

~~~
neffy
Equally as an englander, I fear I have to point out that if Scotland wants
true independence, you´re going to have to persuade your politicians to drop
out of the currency union as well as the political one.

~~~
gaius
... And manage without the Barnett Formula money, and low oil prices, and
somehow manage your pension obligations, and the Shetlands which actually own
the oilfields want to stay British anyway, and...

Still, I love Freedom, so whatever you democratically decide :-)

------
kragen
It is difficult for me to imagine the level of jingoism necessary to consider
it a _problem_ that foreign entrepreneurs don't need the US. Why would you
want the entire world to be dependent on the US? That doesn't help either the
US or the rest of the world.

~~~
mtviewdave
I think the reason is that, at some level, Wadhwa believes that immigrants
make better entrepreneurs than (native-born) Americans. He's never said that
outright, but that's been a theme in his writing for a while. For example,
from the article:

 _America has lost an entire generation of entrepreneurs and innovators and
bolstered its global competition. That is also why the proportion of
immigrant-founded start-ups in Silicon Valley fell from 52 percent in 2005 to
44 percent in 2012 and is probably even lower today._

It's possible that a lower proportion of startups are immigrant-founded
because there are fewer immigrant founders, but it's also possible that there
may be more native-born Americans becoming entrepreneurs. One can't tell from
just this statistic. If the ratio has changed because of an increase in
American entrepreneurship, then Wadhwa's argument becomes that it's bad for
the U.S. if more Americans become entrepreneurs.

Which is weird. And being an American myself, something I find quite
offensive.

------
mc32
It's really not a sign of a problem but rather a sign of improving local
conditions in those up and coming countries. This development will lead to
better local economies, locals with better local opportunities and ultimately
better wealth distribution (rather than entrepreneur wealth/taxes contributing
to American coffers they will contribute to local coffers improving the lives
of locals). And additionally by having fewer people adopt our expensive
lifestyle as they would had they migrated people will contribute less toward
climate change so, win-win.

~~~
scriptkiddy
I also believe that the improved economies in those nations will lead to wage
increases. That will, in turn make it less profitable to outsource to those
nations. In turn, that will hopefully bring more jobs back to the U.S. Sounds
like a win-win really.

------
davidf18
A problem with the H1-B visa program is the abuse of firms such as Disney in
FL, Southern California Edison, and Abbott Pharmaceuticals that have used H1-B
workers to replace Americans at lower cost. In fact, even the Clinton
Foundation has hired (or attempted to hire) H1-B instead of Americans.

The H1-B is supposed to be used only in the case that an American can't be
found to do the job. Americans can do IT. Other firms hire H1-B workers to
save money using foreigners in place of Americans. Thus the hostility towards
H1-B. I think it is highly unlikely that there are even 30,000 jobs per year
where American where there is no American to do the job. Some obscure areas of
science, for example. In many cases the Americans could be trained to do the
specific job.

My great grandparents came over and started a company but I don't recall
knowing that they got any preferential treatment coning to this country.

~~~
PacketPaul
A good example is Google. How many H1-B visas does Google employ? Why? They
are the premier company in the US. They have their pick of employees. The idea
they cannot find qualified employees is laughable. They want to keep rates
low. Period.

~~~
qaq
Google very actively employees people from outside US given all the BS in US
Immigration system they usually move them to UK or Switzerland or whatever dev
center that has much more reasonable options.

------
morgante
It frustrates me that this article conflates a true and serious problem (the
harm to American innovation caused by bad immigration policies) with blatant
hyperbole.

The narrative is also totally inconsistent. Is the problem that foreign
entrepreneurs don't want to come to the US at all (what it seems to start
with/imply) or that our immigration policies make it exceedingly difficult
even when you want to (the truth and meat of the article)? This would be a
much better piece if it cut out the bullshit and focused on immigration.

The iPhone 7 has literally nothing to do with foreign entrepreneurs not coming
to the US, so why is that the lede? It makes the whole article start on
terrible footing.

> There are start-up incubators sprouting up all over India, and the quality
> of the start-ups is second only to those in Silicon Valley and China, which
> are running head to head.

Only someone with their head in the sand could actually think this is true.
I've spent time in non-US startup hubs, including Chinese ones, and they're
definitely not neck-and-neck. Chinese startups might be catching up, but
they're still a distant second place by any conceivable metric.

> The reality is that America’s most innovative company is no longer the
> world’s most innovative company.

Apple might not be the world's most innovative company but I would happily bet
that the most innovative companies in the world continue to be in the US.

> As technology designer Himanshu Khanna said, “Why should I move to Silicon
> Valley when I have a market 10 times as large here?”

By what conceivable metric is the Indian market 10 times larger in general?
It's farcical and defies basic economics to say something like that.

------
msvan
I think this article is exaggerating. In the long run, maybe the US will lose
its luster, but it is still a very desirable place to live.

The US has a secret weapon for solving its growth problems: let more people
in. Is there any country in the world apart from the US that chooses to refuse
a long line of highly qualified people looking to come and pay taxes?

------
agentgt
Why is it any economical success outside of the US is considered a problem?
There is this constant capitalistic journalism need that the US must win on
all fronts. Any success outside of the US "is a problem".

For example if China does well in say for example solar research an article
always seems to come out that this spells doom for the US.

I want all of the world to improve and firmly believe "the rising tide lifts
all boats".

~~~
ArkyBeagle
The operating principle for the US government pretty much has to be this way.
It's a "bug" in the concept of the nation-state.

The natural state of the US - with "a moat the size of two oceans" \- was
isolationist for almost all its history, prior to WWII. Perhaps that's again a
rising idea.

And some of the writing on this subject is simply propaganda-ish.

This being said, if I were, say, from India, it would bug me that I have to
emigrate to innovate. Why should this be?

Well, the US built more universities, which have lead times in decades. Okay,
so send kids to school there, then make it to where they can practice back at
home.

------
jorblumesea
The current visa program benefits very few other than large spaghetti farm
factories like Tata/Infosys etc. It means the truly smart people have to
compete with these large code farms which hire fairly mediocre talent and
replaces American labor at the same time. Do away with the H1B lottery and
replace it with a real visa program that takes into account the truly value
people bring to this country. There are some very smart people from other
countries that I would love to work with, but they are denied the ability to
work here because of vested corporate interests in importing cheaper labor,
not smarter labor.

------
caethan
Brain drain from developing to developed countries is far from a clear win.
Here's some good links talking about the effect of emigration of Kenyan health
care workers (mostly to the UK and the US) on Kenya:
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1538589/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1538589/)
[https://assets.aspeninstitute.org/content/uploads/files/cont...](https://assets.aspeninstitute.org/content/uploads/files/content/images/migration%20of%20health%20workers%20in%20kenya.pdf)

Half of Kenyan-trained doctors live and work outside of Kenya. That represents
a multi-million dollar direct cost just in the governmental and societal
resources used to train those doctors, and a much larger cost to society of
the limited health care infrastructure thanks to a loss of so many workers.

------
readhn
American policies towards immigration are plain stupid, destructive and
damaging economy potential long term.

The solution IMO is very simple: open up easy immigration path to USA for
those with advanced degrees (MS/PhD in science/technology) from world's
accredited universities. Thats it!

Attract top talent! Start today! Not throw it away to your tomorrows
competitors. Build better society/economy here in USA using help and labor of
educated people who are eager to come here to build better lives for
themselves and ultimately the entire country.

People still want to come here despite even this shifting tide - the reason
again simple - it is still one of the best place to live and work (there are
plenty of other countries in Europe and outside of Europe as well), despite
all the problems that USA has (like any country).

Do not wait until we have to beg people to come here, because by then it will
probably be too late.

~~~
searine
>open up easy immigration path to USA for those with advanced degrees (MS/PhD
in science/technology) from world's accredited universities.

AKA How to create diploma mills in one easy step.

~~~
readhn
>>for those with advanced degrees (MS/PhD in science/technology) from world's
accredited universities

no, there should be a list of accredited universities - problem solved!
(Insead, MC Gill, Oxford, MSU, UCL ... top schools !) If USA can steal that
kinda of talent on a routine basis, can you imagine the things we can do for
the economy/politicies/society?

~~~
bdhess
As someone who's been involved with university recruiting, it's clear to me
that even great schools run moneymaker degree mill programs. There are degree
mill programs in Top 5 CS schools because people from overseas are willing to
pay substantially for the credential (and OPT).

~~~
readhn
Are you telling me Mc Gill or Oxford or Insead, for instance, are going to put
their name on a crappy diploma where person is completely clueless? Come on!

Create a list of best ranked foreign universities and make an easy path for
their graduates to come to USA / look for work / start families and and
eventually naturalize if they want to.

USA should really use the opportunity where Europe and other parts of the
world are unstable and they have a pool of good brains/talents looking to
potentially escape those places.

Look at Russia for instance - they lost top brains in science in the late
80-90's due to instability in the country. Where are these guys today? Running
science labs at universities/companies in USA/Europe and all over the world.
Where is Russia today? Completely screwed and not able to replenish the talent
pool. Do you think they do not wish today that they had paid their professors
or grad students a bit more than 10$/month to keep them from leaving the
country back in the 90's?

How would history develop if Sergei Brin's family was not allowed to get an
entry visa to USA? (personally i do not think that google would exist today
here or in russia).

The situation with immigration today is unprecedented. USA is given free
golden ticket and it does not want to take it.

------
jkaljundi
Compared to 2009-2011, when I saw most of European startups dreaming of going
to the Silicon Valley or East Coast, the tide indeed has changed and many are
building their companies now in their home countries, with no wish to even
think of going to the US.

------
contingencies
As a serial entrepreneur, I consider China to be awesome right now. Not only
is cash easier than ever to get (perfect storm of low domestic interest rates,
government outbound forex controls, stock market scares, private sector
domestic financial institution mismanagement and bankruptcies, and the widely
recognized end of the era of easy real estate sector profits: the previous go-
to for parking domestic assets), but overheads are low and the country has the
world's most efficient supply-chain[0] (~2-3 days for anything, 24x7x365) for
almost any electronics or components (perfect for hardware startups), a
central location in Asia and a huge domestic market. On the flip side,
international internet can be a drag (slow) and a stable visa situation, while
achievable, affordable and essentially permanently secure (unlike most western
countries), takes a few months to settle.

At my current startup[1] we are currently locking down a rental agreement on
an office and may use the rest of the space (significant) to re-start a local
makerspace concept that failed to get enough fiscal traction last year.[2] If
anyone out there is working on a hardware project and looking for a low-cost
base of operations, we can give you a home. In time I would love to transition
to an incubator.

Previously I worked in the US (establishing the first foreign office of a
London startup), for the US remotely (new SF-based startup), in the UK, China
and Australia. I feel the US has a great ecosystem for investment but this is
largely outweighed by hassles on visas, litigation, cost and zero life-
stability for non green card holders with families. The UK is simply expensive
(also with visa hassles) and other than fintech or UK university-related
research spinoffs seems sub-optimal. Australia is very strong on research but
overheads, lack of VC and a small and widely dispersed domestic market mean
that commercialization remains a bigger hurdle than it needs to be.

[0] [http://taobao.com/](http://taobao.com/) [1]
[http://8-food.com/](http://8-food.com/) [2]
[http://cave.pratyeka.org/](http://cave.pratyeka.org/)

~~~
an0n_guy
From your experience in terms of money, entrepreneurship, lifestyle, and
research... which is a safer option between Edinburgh and Melbourne?

------
briandear
Let's not pretend the author doesn't have an ulterior motive.

"I was one of the first to outsource software development to Russia in the
early '90s. I was one of the first to use H-1B visas to bring workers to the
U.S.A.," Wadhwa says. "Why did I do that? Because it was cheaper." That tactic
is even more lucrative for corporations today, says Wadhwa: "When you have a
person on H-1B waiting for a green card, you have them captive for six to 10
years."

[http://www.cio.com/article/2437741/outsourcing/the-next-
wave...](http://www.cio.com/article/2437741/outsourcing/the-next-wave-of-
globalization--offshoring-r-d-to-india-and-china.html)

------
readhn
If things are so great and looking up in China, why do Chinese millionaires
send their kids and families to USA/Canada? Why do they buy up the majority of
real estate in New York, Boston, San Francisco, Vancouver, London?

~~~
ArkyBeagle
When I've asked people from China why they put up with the hassle, the answer
has been - they want their kids to be Americans. It's really pretty
impressive.

Buying real estate is a hedge strategy. You might as well; productive
investment is treated shabbily ( in terms of returns) in this economy.

~~~
readhn
Sure money laundering and legalizing it in the USA etc by buying real estate
in USA/Great Britain / Canada is the thing to do today. Pretty simple scheme
thats being completely ignored by the FEDs today. They'd rather chase after
some pathetic shoe bombers.

~~~
ArkyBeagle
I think we should tax the ... fire out of them. Is that ...chauvinistic?
SFAIK, I _cannot_ buy land in Mexico at any price. They got burned and banned
it.

------
_RPM
So, I'm going to get down voted for this, but as a US citizen, I don't want
there to be more H1B status workers granted. They are my direct competition as
a new graduate. Bringing them in here drives down the cost of labor for
software engineering because most of the timer those status workers don't have
leverage and will accept a below market salary or wages. Yes, I know it's been
stated at huge companies like Facebook that the H1B holders get paid the same,
that can't possibly be true for all the companies that hire software
engineers.

------
an0n_guy
What about Australia guys?... Recently I got an offer from university of
Melbourne (Msc in CS), and i am deciding whether to accept or not. My main
area of Interest is NLP/ML and I am interested in a professor's research, that
was my main interest in the university…. However, i do not know if Australia
and Melbourne will give me the opportunity of develop into the tech scene (is
there a tech scene in Melbourne?)… My options are a two fold... to wait a year
and apply to the USA or to the UK or to take Melbourne alternative?.

~~~
nl
The Australian tech scene is ok - it isn't Silicon Valley, but nowhere is.

Sydney has more action than Melbourne, but it's only a half-hour away.

------
bwb
It isn't a problem, it is the effect of the rest of the world's economy
growing up. We are getting smaller and that is a good thing globally. Instead
more Americans need to be focusing outward.

------
stevenkovar
I would propose that fewer American entrepreneurs would say they need the U.S.
as well. The world is globalizing—and I think that's a good thing.

------
tn13
That is a good thing. USA's ridiculous immigration norms is a big problem.

~~~
biocomputation
Really? How so?

------
Practicality
Bring it on! The more in this party the merrier.

If other countries want to create competing systems in similar markets,
fantastic, it can only create more innovation and ideas.

------
eva1984
> America’s most innovative company

Apple?

~~~
RileyKyeden
Microsoft is a strong contender for this title now that their teams are no
longer constrained by a narrow focus on Windows.

~~~
whamlastxmas
It's hard to imagine any company making consumer devices or software is really
the most innovative. Innovative to me means changing the way a society
behaves. Uber is a great example despite all the negative things that could be
said about them. Tesla is another.

~~~
vacri
The introduction of the iphone made everyone in a public space look downwards
instead of forwards...

But seriously, Apple has done more than Uber has. Uber's function is just a
different form of taxi - they haven't changed the way the public behaves. Big-
screen smartphones have.

~~~
whamlastxmas
The first iPhone only barely beat to market theHTC Dream. It was very similar
to the iPhone in terms of being a modern smart phone, and the way we use smart
phones today would not be that much different or that much less common if the
iPhone never existed.

If there was a bigger gap between the iPhone and HTC Dream, you could maybe
make an argument that one influenced the other. But that's not really the
case.

If it wasn't for the first ride-sharing company like Uber getting successful,
we could have very well seen another decade+ of shitty taxi cabs.

------
asldjhcakjhc
.

~~~
kirkdouglas
> We do not pay H1B's less.

According to some people I know (they are all on H1B) typically H1B offer is
10-15% less than average at software big corp such as Microsoft and Google.

~~~
monkeyking123
That may not be completely true. All H1Bs I know make 10-15% more. At some
point - we need to accept that US has broken education and health system. And
don't have enough talent to fill all the positions. H1B is cheap - is indeed
true, but that is not the fundamental problem.

