
Wait continues for European Schiaparelli Mars lander - warrenmiller
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-37707776
======
david-given
My understanding is that there are three spacecraft involved:

Schiaparelli, the lander; really just a technology demonstrator. The signal
was lost at about landing. It was always intended to go into low power mode
after landing to wake up later, so it's possible that the signal just didn't
make it all the way to Earth, but it may also have crashed.

The ExoMars orbiter, the Trace Gas Orbiter, which carried Schiaparelli to
Mars; it's just braked into orbit but has gone behind Mars and is
uncontactable, but at last report everything was fine. It has (hopefully)
recorded Schiaparelli's telemetry for downlinking to Earth later.

Mars Express, an existing probe in orbit around Mars; it has also been
recording Schiaparelli's telemetry; it can't decode the packets, but it can be
used for doppler analysis.

Right now Mars Express is downloading its data. They say it'll take about 10
minutes. I don't know whether that data will be enough to say whether
Schiaparelli landed safely or not. I do know that it'll be a while until all
the data from both orbiters is downloaded and analysed, and by then
Schiaparelli may have woken up and called home (I don't have the schedule to
hand), so it's not a writeoff yet.

 _Edit for clarification:_ Turns out that TGO was actually doing its engine
burn while out of contact from Earth (very small engine burning for a very
long time), so when it comes out from behind Mars we'll know whether it made
it into orbit or not. I should have actually guessed that from playing KSP.

~~~
indexerror
> so it's possible that the signal just didn't make it all the way to Earth

You make it sound like the signal was lost in between somewhere :)

~~~
david-given
The Space Kraken is surprisingly good at absorbing radio waves.

...but seriously, it's a small battery powered vehicle with a tiny antenna,
and it's trying to be heard from between 50 to 100 million kilometres away,
and even in the best case it's just been tumble dried, blowtorched, hammered
with explosive charges, and then dropped a couple of metres. I wouldn't be
surprised if it lost some signal strength.

Mars Express was supposed to record the doppler shift of the carrier wave on
descent, so should be able to pick up any landing signal. We'll see when they
release the results.

------
kevinbowman
[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788779693700968448](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788779693700968448)

"#MarsExpress recording of @ESA_EDM descent is now processed and is being
analysed by experts at #ESOC #ExoMars"

...then...

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788780512089432064](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788780512089432064)

"ACQUISITION OF ORBITER SIGNAL! #ESOC hears @ESA_TGO's signal loud & clear
after it emerges from behind #Mars #ExoMars"

Also a photo of some very happy space people.

Edit: another tweet saying they'll need around 2 hours of data to confirm that
they've reached orbit, confirmation at 20:30 CEST
([https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788781863687036928](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788781863687036928)).
Space is somewhat of an emotional rollercoaster.

~~~
kevinbowman
Note that the lander is Schiaparelli, TGO (Trace Gas Orbiter) is just the
"mothership" which it uplinks to; TGO achieving orbit, though, is still a
special achievement.

~~~
david-given
TGO is the actual _mission_. The lander's just a technology demo --- important
for the next ExoMars mission rover, but it was only going to last a few days
anyway.

Schiaparelli being lost is a 'well, go figure' moment; TGO being lost is an
utter disaster.

Unfortunately landers are sexy, while science-rich orbiting probes aren't, so
it's Schiaparelli that's getting all the press.

~~~
baq
i think it's more of a case of 'good news is no news' \- failures are
naturally more interesting than just saying that everything went according to
the plan and we only have a few pics to show for it.

~~~
estel
Whilst that's true, the popular coverage before the landing (judged entirely
from the BBC News home page) focused exclusively on the lander attempt rather
than the orbiter.

~~~
lmm
BBC will focus particularly on the lander because it's the direct followup to
the British Beagle 2.

------
netinstructions
While you're all waiting for a signal from the lander you may be interested in
the aerothermodynamics testing of the the module at a ballistic range -
[http://i.imgur.com/Xs6NdMC.gifv](http://i.imgur.com/Xs6NdMC.gifv)

Some more reading can be found at ESA's website
[http://exploration.esa.int/mars/49139-aerothermodynamic-
test...](http://exploration.esa.int/mars/49139-aerothermodynamic-tests/)

EDL (Entry Descent and Landing) on Mars is such a tricky thing because it has
a thin enough atmosphere parachutes don't work well, but enough atmosphere
that you have to take it into account when controlling/designing the landing
module (hence Schiaparelli's complex aerothermodynamics testing).

This is also why NASA's Curiosity rover had such a complex "sky crane" system
and why NASA is willing to provide SpaceX communications support in exchange
for the EDL data of SpaceX's landing module (the Red Dragon mission).

~~~
stouset
Is that just GIF artifacts, or can you actually see a shock front as the
lander mockup passes in front of objects (particularly, the striped markers)?

That's incredible!

~~~
mickronome
Wanted to add that while it is hard to judge the speed, if it would happen to
be subsonic then I guess it technically is a pressure front and not a shock
front as it is when supersonic, if I've understood the distinction correctly.

------
Descon
Signal aquired!
[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788768364235743232](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788768364235743232)

~~~
jgrahamc
That's nice, but that's not the lander. That's the downlink of landing data.

~~~
bd
It's starting to come (EDM is Schiaparelli lander, TGO is orbiter):

\--------------------

Latest status for lander: still unknown (next checkpoint after 20:00 CEST)

Latest status for orbiter: seems good

\--------------------

1) _The @ESA_EDM landing recording from #MarsExpress has started arriving on
Earth, #ESOC teams report seeing packets flowing #ExoMars_

2) _It will take just over 10 minutes for #MarsExpress to transmit the
@ESA_EDM recording #ExoMars_

3) _Interpretation of the @ESA_EDM recording is quite complex - could take
more than 30 minutes_

4) _@ESA_EDM recording from #MarsExpress is signal only, no telemetry. We can
already tell a lot from that though._

5) _#MarsExpress team now processing @ESA_EDM landing recording to extract the
trace of the lander 's signal as it descended to Mars._

6) _#MarsExpress recording of @ESA_EDM descent is now processed and is being
analysed by experts at #ESOC_

7) _ACQUISITION OF ORBITER SIGNAL! #ESOC hears @ESA_TGO 's signal loud & clear
after it emerges from behind #Mars_

8) _Initial reports from @ESA_TGO telemetry are that it performed exactly as
expected during the #BigBurn_

9) _@ESA_TGO team are now analysing the health of the orbiter, looking good so
far_

10) _Teams monitoring the Schiaparelli lander continue waiting for indication
of the lander’s progress. Engineers are waiting for the next signal receipt
slot, which will be provided by NASA’s Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, which will
overfly the Schiaparelli landing site between about 18:49 and 19:03 CEST, and
downlink any received signals at around 20:00 CEST._

11) _@ESA_EDM recording from #MarsExpress is inconclusive - not clear yet what
the status of the lander is_

\--------------------

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788770343888556033](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788770343888556033)

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788770921788178432](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788770921788178432)

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788771548517785600](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788771548517785600)

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788771906455470080](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788771906455470080)

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788775324389634048](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788775324389634048)

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788779693700968448](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788779693700968448)

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788780512089432064](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788780512089432064)

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788782643697577985](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788782643697577985)

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788783926173130752](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788783926173130752)

[http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Live...](http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Live_updates_ExoMars_arrival_and_landing)

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788790526422188032](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788790526422188032)

~~~
jessriedel
Right, but we already know that the lander emitted some signals part way
through the descent (directly transmitted to Earth 1 hours ago):

> #GMRT signal trace has jumped again, which should be the signature of
> @ESA_EDM parachute deployment #ExoMars

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788755782665928704](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788755782665928704)

> Further jumps in the signals from #GMRT - should show heatshield separation
> and powered descent #ExoMars

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788755964786839552](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788755964786839552)

So this doesn't tell us anything new. What's still to be seen is whether it
survives the landing on the surface.

~~~
jsprogrammer
If the lander survived, it was expected to transmit. So far it seems that
nothing like the expected transmission has been received.

------
trothamel
Unfortunately, this reminds me a bit of the wait for the Mars Polar Lander,
which crashed on mars in 1999. If the initial communication fails, we have to
start hoping for automatic recovery from progressively more and more unlikely
failures.

For example, if the initial communication at the end of the landing fails, you
hope that it's just the direct-to-Earth antenna. But since it doesn't look
like Mars Express could confirm the landing, we have to hope that something
prevented it from contacting that - a bad angle or something. Well, perhaps
another orbiter will pick it up, or a watchdog timer will time out and fix the
problem (for example, by switching to another radio, if they have one).

There's no point in the flight controllers giving up hope, for the few days
the batteries would last. But at the same time, the list of things that could
cause the failure without destroying the lander totally grows smaller.

(That being said, we now have orbiters that should be able to image the
landing site, which could help diagnose the problem more quickly.)

------
jessriedel
Most up to date info is here:

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations](https://twitter.com/esaoperations)

------
wlesieutre
Summary for the day posted on ESA's website. The highlights:

> The Trace Gas Orbiter (TGO) of ESA’s ExoMars 2016 has successfully performed
> the long 139-minute burn required to be captured by Mars and entered an
> elliptical orbit around the Red Planet, while contact has not yet been
> confirmed with the mission’s test lander from the surface.

> Media briefing tomorrow at 10:00 CEST for more information. The briefing
> will be streamed online.

[http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/ExoM...](http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/ExoMars_TGO_reaches_Mars_orbit_while_EDM_situation_under_assessment)

------
yellowapple
The map makes it look like it was supposed to land right on top of
Opportunity. Seeing as how Opportunity is (last I checked) still operational,
would it be possible to send it out to investigate what might've happened if
Schiaparelli did indeed fail?

~~~
trothamel
Probably not. While Schiaparelli is close enough Oppy could plausibly reach it
after quite a bit of driving, it would be criminal for Opportunity to go
investigate an engineering problem when it was sent to mars to do science.

~~~
Steltek
OTOH, wouldn't it have been awesome if Opportunity had recorded the lander on
descent? I'm not sure how much azimuth swivel the cameras have but maybe they
could have parked it uphill pointing in the right direction...

~~~
fbender
AFAIK, Oppy was in fact watching. Given its abilities it's however unlikely it
was able to see something substantial.

~~~
fbender
Info on Opportunity watching for Schiaparelli EDM:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12763583](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12763583)

------
andreapaiola
18:53 CEST: The ExoMars/TGO spacecraft completed its critical orbit-insertion
manoeuvre at Mars today and its signals were received by ground stations at
18:34 CEST, just as expected. The timely re-acquisition indicates the engine
burn went as planned, and mission controllers are waiting for a detailed
assessment from the flight dynamics specialists at ESOC to confirm it.

Teams monitoring the Schiaparelli lander continue waiting for indication of
the lander’s progress. Engineers are waiting for the next signal receipt slot,
which will be provided by NASA’s Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, which will
overfly the Schiaparelli landing site between about 18:49 and 19:03 CEST, and
downlink any received signals at around 20:00 CEST.

------
russdill
Briefing in approx 30 minutes:

[http://livestream.com/ESA/marsarrival](http://livestream.com/ESA/marsarrival)

A press conference is scheduled for 20 October at 08:00 GMT / 10:00 CEST, when
a mission status update is expected, along with the first images from the
Schiaparelli descent camera. This will also be streamed live via the player
above.

~~~
russdill
Parachute deploy of lander confirmed, heat shield function confirmed.
Parachute flight worked, but parachute release did not match expectations.
Things went downhill from there.

------
bd
Schiaparelli lander status update from ESA TV live stream (20:35 CEST):

\- already two sources confirmed losing signal during landing sequence (GMRT
radio telescope in India [1] + Mars Express orbiter [2])

\- still more data coming around midnight CEST (Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter
[3])

\- processing new data will take some time (ESA team will work on it through
the night)

\- press conference with hopefully more news about lander's fate tomorrow at
10:00 CEST

\------

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Metrewave_Radio_Telescop...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Metrewave_Radio_Telescope)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Express](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Express)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Reconnaissance_Orbiter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Reconnaissance_Orbiter)

~~~
danielweber
With Beagle 2 (ESA's other attempt to land on Mars), we also lost the signal,
but it turned out that it made a safe landing. But solar panels failed to
unfold and that blocked transmission.

------
baq
>End of planned @ESA_EDM transmission - still no signal at #GMRT - this is not
unexpected due to very faint signal at #GMRT #ExoMars

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788759668940210176](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788759668940210176)

------
flashman
Beagle 2: solar panels didn't deploy. Philae: didn't anchor to surface,
bounced into a crevice. Schiaparelli: missing in action. If this is another
loss, ESA is continuing its bad run with landers.

~~~
maxxxxx
Yeah. It's pretty disappointing. I really would like to see ESA leave the
shadow of NASA.

------
cyberpunk
Yeehaa!! Well done humanity!

ESA Operations ‏@esaoperations 40s 40 seconds ago

#MarsExpress signal acquired! The ESA Deep Space Antenna #Cebreros reports a
clear signal from @ESA's veteran Mars mission. #ExoMars

~~~
david-given
Mars Express recorded Schiaparelli's signal during descent. All this report is
is that Mars Express has started downlinking the recording to Earth --- it's
not a report that contact's been made with the lander.

~~~
PuffinBlue
I was under the impression the data sent to MarsExpress was a confirmatory
landing signal. No?

That data, re-transmitted from MarsExpress is now arriving:

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788770343888556033](https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/788770343888556033)

------
the_duke
> MarsExpress has started transmitting the @ESA_EDM landing recording. Even at
> light speed it will take 9m47s to reach Earth #ExoMars (seconds ago)

~~~
hanoz
Though of course, knowledge of whether it has in fact started transmitting the
@ESA_EDM landing recording will also take 9m47s to reach Earth.

------
jcoffland
This will be devastating to the ESA's funding which is why they are spinning
it so hard. This really sucks.

------
andreapaiola
All good for the orbiters!

No news for the lander.

See you tomorrow morning.

------
Overtonwindow
I watched the animation and I saw that the lander would land with a hard thud
on the surface, with a system to collapse underneath and cushion it's fall.
Why didn't they use the sky-crane method that NASA and JPL came up with?

~~~
rbanffy
If they had the mass budget to fit a crane they'd probably pack bigger
batteries.

~~~
Overtonwindow
I'm not sure I understand. The Mars Rover is powered by a nuclear reactor.

~~~
kl4m
The Schiaparelli lander is an experiment to test this specific landing method.
The landing is the experiment. It's battery-powered and will go dark in a few
days.

~~~
Overtonwindow
Much clearer than you!

------
andreapaiola
events diverging from what was expected after the ejection of the back heat
shield and parachute. This ejection itself appears to have occurred earlier
than expected, but analysis is not yet complete.

The thrusters were confirmed to have been briefly activated although it seems
likely that they switched off sooner than expected, at an altitude that is
still to be determined.

[http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Schi...](http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Schiaparelli_descent_data_decoding_underway)

------
pitiburi
"#FlightDynamics reported to the #FlightDirector that "We are captured in Mars
orbit...all within expected tolerances" #ExoMars" .....TGO is in Mars
Orbit!!!!

------
joeyspn
Live video stream from ESA HQ:

[http://livestream.com/ESA/marsarrival](http://livestream.com/ESA/marsarrival)

------
walkingolof
Beagle 2 comes to mind ...

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagle_2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagle_2)

~~~
netinstructions
With the (possibly incorrect) thread title as it currently stands, this is a
relevant and interesting read.

The interesting part was waiting 12 years for another orbiter to image the
landing area to figure out what went wrong with Beagle 2.

If ExoMars/Schiaparelli never sends a signal indicating what happened, would
NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter HiRISE camera been able to photograph
Schiaparelli (the lander) and figure out what went wrong?

The Beagle 2 is 2 meters across and Schiaparelli has a 2.4 m diameter.

~~~
qznc
Interesting. The Beagle 2 is 12 pixels on the original fotos. Using mad CSI
skills (aka Super-Resolution Restoration) they enhanced it to 100 pixels.

[http://www.space.com/32691-europe-beagle-2-mars-lander-
photo...](http://www.space.com/32691-europe-beagle-2-mars-lander-photos.html)

------
warrenmiller
"ESA Flight Operations Director Michel Denis has confirmed that they have lost
contact with the probe.

The team is now hoping to pick up a signal from the Mars Orbiter, but it's not
looking hopeful"

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/10/19/exomars-
space-...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/10/19/exomars-space-probe-
schiaparelli-landing-mars-surface-live/)

~~~
kl4m
Wow, the news coverage is really awful. They have not confirmed anything yet.

~~~
danielweber
While ESA is nowhere as good as NASA at public outreach[1], does it really
suck that we have to wait an extra day to find out what happened 100 million
miles away?

[1] NASA probably is overly concerned about public outreach, to the point of
choosing missions that look cool or sound cool over those that actually work
or do new science.

~~~
kl4m
The original title was: “No Signal from European Schiaparelli Mars Lander”. I
was talking about trigger-happy, misleading coverage from the BBC and
Telegraph, not ESA.

------
DavidWanjiru
I saw this headline and went "SHIT!" No, I'm not emotionally invested, in fact
I only learnt about it a few hours ago here on HN. Good to hear they have
signal.

------
mirekrusin
Maybe windows update kicked in?

------
ts330
totally misleading title... there was no signal at the time because they were
still waiting for it.

~~~
jessriedel
I believe the lander was expected to send a confirmation signal directly to
Earth after landing, which it did not do.

------
MrZongle2
Just now:

#MarsExpress signal acquired! The ESA Deep Space Antenna #Cebreros reports a
clear signal from @ESA's veteran Mars mission. #ExoMars

[https://twitter.com/esaoperations](https://twitter.com/esaoperations)

~~~
hacker_9
/thread

~~~
baq
not yet, depends on the contents of the signal

