
Alcohol and social bonding in humans (2018) - chasedehan
https://www.ft.com/content/c5ce0834-9a64-11e8-9702-5946bae86e6d
======
jdkee
"Loneliness is a health threat in the western world, and the UK even has a
dedicated minister to address the problem. How to solve it, of course, is a
huge challenge, but encouraging people to get out and socialise over a few
beers or a bottle of wine at the village pub may be a good place to start."

Proximity, unplanned encounters and the privacy to confide with someone have
been identified as key factors in making friends as an adult.[cite] I find it
unfortunate to read about the closing of so many neighborhood pubs in England
over the past decade or so.

~~~
lazyjones
One has to wonder why even the author states specifically that loneliness is a
problem in the "western world". Isn't it a problem elsewhere and if so, why?
What does it really correlate with? Longer lifespans, smaller families, peace
and security, wealth?

~~~
coldtea
> _One has to wonder why even the author states specifically that loneliness
> is a problem in the "western world". Isn't it a problem elsewhere and if so,
> why?_

Because other places have stronger social and family bonds (Africa, Asia,
Latin America). Exceptions is the West and very westernized societies in Asia
(e.g. Japan).

It's partly cultural (e.g. protestant cultures being more impersonal), partly
because of necessity (you need more family/friend support in less developed
countries), and partly because of the development model chosen (or imposed
onto people) which sacrifices personal and social time and binds for
productivity and consumption. Where western style productivity has not been
applied (e.g. in vast expanses of global rural areas, non-factory cities,
slower economies, etc), even the poor have plenty of social time. When that
has been eroded and people are forced to factory work, sweatshops, or worse
(mines etc), that drops closer to zero.

Quite a lot of social time was the norm in the west too, both in the pre-
industrial past, and when a middle class emerged that overcame the Dickensian
working conditions (e.g. sometime before WWII, up until some point in the 70s
- late 80s or so. Thank neoliberalism/globalization for the changes...).

~~~
C14L
[citation needed]

~~~
coldtea
[fieldwork and reading up required from the reader]

~~~
C14L
So you made it up and then downvoted me for asking for a source? Oh well.

~~~
coldtea
No, I summed up my informed observations and readings (having lived and worked
in a few continents for some chunks of time), and downvoted the cliche Reddit-
like "citation needed" content-less response.

If you have your own observations, or opinion, or point of view, or counter
data, or some citation you'd like to share, please do so. I've written mine.

~~~
C14L
> my informed observations and readings

I lived and worked since the mid-1990s in Africa, Asia, and Latin America,
plus have a related degree. And no, I will not give you sources to contradict
your "facts". That's not how science works. If you present "facts", then its
on you to present the sources. And don't downvote people asking for a source.
That's yet another level.

------
dang
The author is Robin Dunbar, of Dunbar's number.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Dunbar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Dunbar)

Past threads have shown this to be a bit of a triggering topic, but this is an
interesting and substantial article. We changed the title to make it less
baity, in accordance with the HN guidelines. If anyone suggests a better title
(i.e. more accurate and neutral), we can change it again.

~~~
taxicabjesus
> If anyone suggests a better title (i.e. more accurate and neutral)

I think the important insight in the article is "how alcohol and social
activities trigger the endorphin system in humans".

I object to the article's proposition that alcohol is useful, except in
controlled amounts. Two or three ounces of wine is enough, not the whole
bottle.

As a taxi driver, I dealt with a lot of people who had trouble with alcohol,
and trouble with "social activities". _I_ had trouble with social activities,
but talking to random people in my taxi was much more useful to me than any of
the drinks I've ever had.

One of my most successful interventions was for the passenger whom I'd later
learn had been written off by her family as a hopeless drunk. Her family and
friends cared about her, but they didn't know what to do, and had their own
problems to deal with.

I didn't know that when I arrived at that passenger's apartment. She provided
simple directions. I quickly realized we were going the drive-thru liquor
store. I took a few minutes out of my day to detour to a fast food restaurant,
spent a few extra minutes talking to her, and called back a few times over the
next two days. Then I forgot about her...

After her taxi ride, her friend called one of her sons and said, "GO SOBER UP
YOUR MOTHER!" She did well for two or three months, that time.

This passenger later told me she'd fallen into alcoholism because drinking
"made [all her problems] go away". Prison for her 3rd DUI did not actually
provide the help she needed to pull herself together.

Eventually I told her daughter that what her mother really needed was to know
that she had her children's support. They stepped up to take care of her.
She's doing quite well now, and is useful to her children instead of a burden.

Johann Hari's book [0] talks about how social connections are what people
actually need to break their addictions.

[0] [http://chasingthescream.com/](http://chasingthescream.com/)

~~~
jimktrains2
>Two or three ounces of wine is enough

Enough for what exactly? A common pour of wine is 4 - 6 oz.

Also, I'm sorry you don't like alcohol, but not all use is abuse. I wouldn't
even go as far as saying occasional and mild drunkenness itself is
problematic.

I don't disagree that in many cases substance abuse happens because of
external problems and unless those are fixed relapse becomes almost
inevitable. Sometimes that has nothing to do with connecting to others; there
is a reason the opioid crisis is hitting rural areas that have been hit very
hard economically.

~~~
taxicabjesus
> Enough for what exactly? A common pour of wine is 4 - 6 oz.

2-3 ounces of wine is enough to "trigger the endorphin system in humans" to
facilitate social interactions, for people whose endorphin systems aren't
already overloaded with pain signals.

People for whom 2-3 ounces is not enough can refresh their endorphin system
using the drug mentioned in the article.

------
nelsonic
Is nobody going to mention that the "research" that lead to this article was
funded by the Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA) and it's conclusions _might_ be
biased toward portraying alcohol consumption in a favourable light?

Drink more beer/wine/etc in pubs if you want to bond with people.

Yes, alcohol can be a social lubricant, but there is no shortage of evidence
that social bonding can/does occur without it.

------
Animats
Is getting the "connectedness index" up from 5.9 to 6.6 significant?

The "article in the British Medical Journal" is here.[1] The "Whitehall study"
has been tracking a group of British civil servants since the 1980s. The
alcohol effect seems to be slightly above the noise level. But the level of
alcohol consumption at which things start to get worse is quite low. "Alcohol
consumption >14 units/week was associated with an increased risk of dementia
in a linear fashion". 14 units a week is about one glass of wine a day.[2]

Also, in this study alcohol consumption is self-reported, so it's probably
low.

[1]
[https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k2927](https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k2927)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_alcohol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_alcohol)

~~~
martingoodson
The group with the highest rate of dementia was those who abstained from
alcohol completely though.

~~~
rwmj
Did they control for the recovering alcoholic abstainers?

------
gexla
Taking Devil's Advocate on the article because of alcohol.

You can't just instruct an alcoholic not to overdo alcohol. Bonding over a
beer is fine if you are able to control your consumption (or you don't care,)
but don't push it on people who you know don't drink or have drank in the past
but have since quit.

As Artie Lange likes to joke “People who don’t have the disease say, ‘Artie,
you can have one drink, one beer, one five-dollar bet. If I put down a five-
dollar bet on roulette in a casino, half an hour later, it’s beer, vodka,
weed. By 11:30, I’m doing blow off a stripper’s ass... By 8 a.m. I’m running
guns to Cuba.”

------
every
I spent 25 years in bar and restaurant with almost half that time actually
behind a bar. Alcohol does indeed grease the social skids. Sometimes
positively and sometimes not so much. It all depends on who is doing the
imbibing and the chemistry between the various parties. Bartenders are very
much attuned to these dynamics...

------
thunderbong
Wonderful article. Lots of interesting observations and studies cited.

The last paragraph -

> So, if you want to know the secret of a long and happy life, money is not
> the right answer. Get rid of the takeaway in front of the telly, and bin the
> hasty sandwich at your desk — the important thing is to take time out with
> people you know and talk to them over a beer or two, even that bottle of
> Prosecco if you really must. There’s nothing quite like a convivial evening
> wrapped around a pint to give you health, happiness and a sense of
> wellbeing.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
The horrible thing about that last paragraph is that doing the thing - talking
to folks over a beer or two - requires money. Not lots of money, but some
money. It requires transportation and, if you don't have it, you shouldn't
have the beer. And so on.

If there is a population of folks that have trouble affording food every
month, that sort of simple happiness isn't available. Money - to a point - is
part of the answer.

~~~
rendall
I once felt the same way. And maybe in the future I will come around to that
way of thinking again.

The problem is not money, per se in my view. I'm coming to believe now though
that humans have a baseline of social health in the same way that there is a
baseline of physical health - and that baseline health is rather reasonable
and flexible. Money correlates somewhat with social health.

If someone heart pounds and they get dizzy whenever they stand up, then
something is clearly wrong and they should see a doctor. Normally healthy
humans should be able to stand and walk around at least.

Likewise, if someone cannot afford (their society's equivalent of) a pint of
beer with friends, it means that something has gone wrong: being able to
socialize with friends is the baseline, however socializing is defined in that
society. A person unable to afford to socialize is a socially ill person.

There is absolutely nothing morally wrong with being poor just as there is
nothing morally wrong with being ill. But it is not baseline. Moving the
baseline expectation from "pint of beer" to "playing musical instruments" or
"telling entertaining tales" or "making costumes" or "listening warmly" will
still mean that some people will still be unable to afford to socialize.

------
entropyneur
Alcohol's track record in my life thus far:

Relationships created: 0

Relationships destroyed or severely damaged: 2

To clarify, I was not the one affected by alcohol in those 2 cases. So thanks,
but no thanks.

~~~
mads
Yeah, I feel like I have to justify why I am not participating in "doing
drugs", when people wonder why I wont have a drink. Very tiring and kind of
helped me to avoid drinking just out of spite :P ..

That weird "must be something wrong with you" attitude is pretty unique to
alcohol, I would say.

~~~
tasuki
Perhaps that explains why people who drink moderately enjoy better outcomes:
they're not being penalized by others for not drinking.

------
Floegipoky
Since this article refers to einkorn bread as "grimly tasteless, rather soggy
flatbread," I just wanted to say that einkorn sourdough is my favorite type of
bread. Definitely worth trying!

------
JackPoach
I enjoy drinking, but I am tired of reading stories about how alcohol or
psychoactive drugs are key to whatever.

------
rossdavidh
So, we get a lot of "alcohol is bad" or "alcohol is good (in moderation)" from
different scientists. What am I, a non-scientist, to believe? For my "null
hypothesis", which I hold to unless and until a scientific consensus
demonstrates otherwise, is that conditions similar to my ancestors' lifestyle
is what is most likely to be what I am adapted for. I'm pretty sure my
ancestors were occasional drinkers of alcohol.

Of course, it would depend on my particular ancestors. If my dad or mom died
of cirrhosis of the liver, I would choose differently.

~~~
bitwize
This is hackernews, where random commenters from the internet can dig up
evidence that anything you might enjoy consuming is bad for you. About the
only thing people can agree is good for you is fasting.

~~~
topmonk
Not anymore, currently top comment on article on IF:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21888639](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21888639)

------
Cyph0n
If alcohol consumption is crucial to human bonding, how does the author
explain friendship and bonding in communities where alcohol is not consumed?

I have never consumed alcohol - historically for religious reasons, but now
due to personal convictions - so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I am of the opinion that it’s much easier to fall into addiction and/or abuse
of the drink if it’s available as an option. I am not at all condoning
prohibition here; that never worked anywhere it was attempted, and never will.
Rather, I am looking at this from a personal level.

I am definitely open to hearing reasonable arguments for drinking, other than
the social aspect, which was covered (poorly, imo) by this article.

~~~
kylecazar
Well,it's all about your culture's relationship with it. In NYC, it can be
difficult to socialize at times without alcohol because it's very ingrained in
the young professional community. In Istanbul, where it isn't, perhaps it's
difficult to socialize as a coffee abstainer.

In neither case is it really that difficult to abstain and still socialize,
but presuming you don't have a problem and can drink moderately, I can see why
the benefits outweigh the negatives.

~~~
big_chungus
Also a non-drinker, and yeah, it really sucks to not drink in the professional
American world. Not only does it make me the buzzkill, I honestly hate being
around drunk people. Being drunk is really only fun when everyone's doing it
together, like the adult version of campfire songs, making it hard to be the
odd man out.

~~~
C1sc0cat
You really should not use "Drunk" to mean some one that has had one or two
drinks - it shows your huge (presumably unconscious bias) from your
upbringing.

------
_def
Drugs are fun. But have nothing to do with honest friendships imho.

~~~
joejerryronnie
Drugs are very fun but, many times, can lead to a false circle of friendship.
Depending on how deep you are, you end up surrounding yourself with super
shady people who you would never trust/hang out with normally but the
lifestyle keeps you together. Eventually, you believe that your little circle
of “friends” are the normal ones and everyone else is screwed up.

------
TomMckenny
I'm going to guess that human tolerance of alcohol has some evolutionary
advantage. In addition to being a social lubricant, which seems to be critical
to the species, I can imagine it's previous value was that it let us eat not-
so-fresh fruit that the other beasties couldn't.

~~~
spats1990
Aboriginal Australians did fine despite not really having it, for ~40,000
years or more.

~~~
C1sc0cat
If stalling at the late stone age level and then being basically obliterated
by colonisation is doing fine.

Not quite sure I buy that

~~~
spats1990
Parent comment was about biology and evolution, not... whatever it is that
this reply is about.

------
tshanmu
follow the money - I am sure there would be a sponsorship hook with a large
alcohol producer :)

------
sriharis
If only people bonded as well over tea.

------
jacquesm
Flagging this. As if people did not bond socially before alcohol was invented.

------
vaxman
Fact: Tech careers attract many sketchy people and many young people. Alcohol
is one of the few legal ways to quickly identify and filter out the union of
those two sets, many of whom are the most disturbed individuals that have
found their way in. Sadly, it doesn't work on those who abstain due to
physical incapacity, religion or the truly psychotic. Just keep parroting
expressions with an obsolete context like "free as in beer"... or "Alcohol and
social bonding in humans" (as opposed to animals?) here on Hacker News..hah

~~~
etaioinshrdlu
I really want to understand what you're saying. Can you try to rephrase?

~~~
smolder
I read that as: alcohol is used to get employees to open up for "post-hiring
interview" purposes, to get a better feel for their character. I've had people
senior to me pry pretty hard into my own thoughts over alcohol at company
events before, so that fits my experience.

