
Stop Australia's Data Retention Bill - pserwylo
https://stopthespies.org/?live
======
pserwylo
With this particular legislation, it is very clear to me why it is bad. I am
able to articulate to people that regardless of who proposed or supported the
idea, it is not a good idea to keep information on my family and friends, such
as where they move, who is in their social networks, what topics they search
the web for in the privacy of their own home. I feel that it is empowering to
explain why it is not a necessary or proportionate response to place the
entire country under surveillance on the off chance one of us was to plan a
terrorist related offence. I can also explain clearly why this is something
which will result in all lay people being monitored, but none of the technical
savvy people who actively try and circumvent the retention scheme using a mix
of offshore VPS + VPN + tor + whatever other technology helps them.

As beefsac said, this is a policy which will likely have support from the two
major parties. I encourage all people who oppose this particular legislation
to explain to their friends, families, co-workers, etc the ramifications of
mandatory data retention - without mentioning a particular party. I'm aware
that discussions about legislation such as this often end up in name slanging
and partisan comments. However I think it is very important to debate these
things with a clear head. As much as possible when discussing politics and
legislation, I try to refrain from referring to any specific party or
politician. I fear that if I do, I'm allowing people to attack my argument by
saying "of course you'd say that, you leftist greenie" or "of course you'd say
that, you right winged conservatist". Lets play the ball, not the man.

FYI - I've already contacted my local MP - the first time I've felt the need
to do so. I await his reply.

Edit: grammar

~~~
socceroos
Very well said, sir. I would be interested in finding out the response of your
MP.

~~~
kibibu
Last time I contacted my MP it was due to mandatory Internet filter
legislation.

I got a form letter explaining how good mandatory Internet filtering is.

------
sasas
Let's not forget the new terror laws that have cleared the Senate, "enabling
entire Australian web to be monitored and whistleblowers to be jailed" [1]

Even as network administrators it is not clear that if we patch our systems or
report breaches, we could end up in jail if the attacks were orchestrated by
the spy agency [2]

[1] [http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/consumer-
security/terror-...](http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/consumer-
security/terror-laws-clear-senate-enabling-entire-australian-web-to-be-
monitored-and-whistleblowers-to-be-jailed-20140926-10m8ih.html)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srk9c4rOgZ4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srk9c4rOgZ4)

------
pan69
The Australian government is currently very busy orchestrating a national fear
campaign to make its citizens believe that laws like the Data Retention law
are required.

However, the Australian government wanted this law for a long time now and the
whole IS/terrorist situation seems to be a great vehicle for the Australian
government to bring fear into it's citizens so they'd approve of it.

Don't be fooled my fellow hackers! They don't have your best interest at
heart, only their own.

~~~
vacri
The sad thing is that our country is so safe, that we have to refer to
terrorism nearly two full continents away^ in order to push this issue.

^syria is on the other side of asia, and most people in australia are on the
east coast.

------
damian2000
Good write-up here by Australian ISP iiNet, who are strongly against the bill

[http://blog.iinet.net.au/protecting-your-
privacy/](http://blog.iinet.net.au/protecting-your-privacy/)

~~~
higherpurpose
Are they going to sue?

~~~
damian2000
The bill hasn't passed the senate yet ... I believe Labor & the Greens are
against it as is.

------
thomasfoster96
Great mini site and in trying to share it I've discovered yet more bugs in the
iOS 8 share button.

I'm a little disappointed though that the new laws making _all_ Internet
connected devices essentially one device when it comes to warrants isn't
really shown on the site. If the site's source is available somewhere is be
happy to help add more about it.

~~~
pserwylo
I'm not affiliated with the site, but they encourage contributions at
[https://github.com/stopthespies/website](https://github.com/stopthespies/website).
I tend to agree with you that this is also an important topic.

~~~
thomasfoster96
Saw that after posting my comment, thanks!

------
TheSpiceIsLife
At this stage it has become apparent that opposing surveillance doesn't appear
to be helping. It's pretty clear where this is headed, and it seems to me the
only way out of it is through it and out the other side, whatever that might
look like.

My position on surveillance is now, and has been for a few months, what Slavoj
Žižek said: "Yeah but I don't care if we are watched. Here I preach arrogance.
So what, let the big 'other' watch me maybe he will learn something and be
less stupid, you know, this is not my problem."

If you haven't seen it this video[1] of Slavoj Žižek and Paul Holdengräber on
"Surveillance and whistleblowers" at the International Authors' Stage,
published earlier this year, is quite entertaining. The quote above is at
35:54.

1\.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIPjmmmh_os](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIPjmmmh_os)

------
j_lev
What does one do if they agree with the cause, but don't want to be associated
with the people making up the majority of the movement?

For example, if you were strongly opposed to the policies or methods of The
Greens then you may be turned off by the campaign in the OP as the Twitter
mosaic is covered in Greens logos.

Another example, I had a friend who attended an Anti Iraq War protest back
when it was all going down (the second time). The problem was, the majority of
people protesting were far-left/resistance/socialists that were overtly trying
to conflate the issues of boat people and I think Palestinians with the war in
Iraq, two movements that my friend wanted nothing to do with.

------
logicchains
As an Australian, I wonder if anyone could recommend a good VPN service? Or
would Tor with Obfsproxy be a better option?

~~~
dombili
I've been using Mullvad for over a year now. I have no complaints. Feel free
to ask questions. (I have no ties with them, just a happy customer.)

~~~
logicchains
Interesting, they provide their source code. As a datapoint, what kind of
average speeds do you get with them?

------
damian2000
Wouldn't this have a technical issue anyway - the fact that all devices in
your home would effectively be grouped under the single IP of your ADSL modem?
They could never pinpoint something to an individual. Same problem that the
movie studio litigators face going after pirates.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
Combined with other forms of 'big data' it should be fairly straight forward
to identify a specific individual. And if not law enforcement has already
proven it doesn't care[1].

1\. [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2677972/Toddler-
disf...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2677972/Toddler-disfigured-
police-grenade-thrown-crib-leaves-hospital-month-suffering-horrific-injuries-
require-surgeries.html)

------
coffeecheque
It's disappointing that this has had very little coverage and/or discussion in
the tech community outside Australia.

I realise it's at a national level and therefore a domestic piece of
legislation, but that doesn't stop internet users the world over rallying
together on issues like net neutrality and SOPA.

For days, the SOPA campaign was everywhere. It too was a domestic (US) piece
of legislation, but it's "forced" on other uses (through sites like Reddit,
etc.) in countries where it doesn't specifically apply.

The data retention scheme proposed by the Australian Government is draconian.
It has very little public oversight, it costs consumers money and inhibits the
free ideal of the internet. At a basic level, the spooks want every IP address
of every consumer for every connection to be kept (by the ISP) for two years.

My name, address (subscriber information) will be tied to my IP by the ISP. I
connect at 5:43am to Facebook. That's logged. I leave Facebook and log onto
Reddit at 5:55am, that's logged. For two years. I send an email to Activists-
R-US at 6am, that's logged. Not the "content", just the fact that I did it.

And, best of all, it's all classified as "metadata", so accessing the records
_doesn 't even need a warrant_. In fact, any agency in the country with
"investigative powers" can request the records from the ISP. That includes,
and is not limited to, councils who are investigating lost dogs or parking
infringements.

The Attorney-General in Australia, George Brandis, couldn't even describe or
explain what he wanted to be retained:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbtgULCY5zk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbtgULCY5zk)

We already have fairly tight rules when it comes to internet spying. Every ISP
- to get a carrier licence - needs to submit a Interception Capability Plan
(ICP) with the Government, explaining how it can - if necessary - tap that
connection for spying. If you change your network and it changes the way the
lines are tapped, you have to let the Government know straight away.

We also have mandatory retention orders, which can be applied to a subscriber
account if a court sees fit. This orders the ISP to keep the information on
the user for a limited time.

If the authorities have their suspicions, they have ample opportunity to get
what they want under the current laws.

Data retention is, as I said, draconian. It turns presumption of innocence on
its head, and it will be used - one day - to track down to prosecute and jail
journalists and whistleblowers.

It will eventually be used to track down and prosecute copyright infringers
and "trolls".

I realise that's a slippery slope argument, but legislation - once it's on the
books - is often used for things it wasn't intended for.

~~~
csirac2
But wait a minute - didn't risky.biz' Patrick Gray originally report that the
AFP clarified that the "Metadata retention" amounts to merely formalizing the
retention of DHCP logs?

I mean, there's heaps of shitty things to complain about here (Eg. illegal
intelligence activities could send an ASIO officer to gaol for 2 years but a
journalist reporting such a thing could go to gaol for 10 years). However I
can totally get why authorities should be able to match up an IP address +
datetime = ISP user.

~~~
coffeecheque
There are many, many different takes on what is wanted.

The Government's Communications Minister, the Attorney-General's Department,
the Attorney-General himself and the police/spies have all said different
things on what will be required.

The ISP iiNet has also said that an internal document it received from the
AG's Department a year or so back has very, very different requirements on
what should be kept than what anyone is saying publicly.

Also, I see why authorities want it, but I don't think they should have it. As
mentioned, there is already more than enough ways to get the information on
targets if they want it.

What they are doing is a dragnet style surveillance approach in a democratic
country.

~~~
csirac2
I was under the impression they would continue to use the existing channels of
obtaining DHCP logs from ISPs as before (i.e. subpoenas), but the changes were
aimed at some ISPs not retaining more than eg. last 7 days logs, or last 30
days/billing period, etc.

The RB guys made it sound so simple...

------
hadoukenio
A more powerful message would be "Stop the Abbott" campaign.

~~~
beefsack
Keep in mind this ridiculous legislation has bipartisan support, both major
parties are to blame.

~~~
damian2000
I thought Labor opposed it ...

[http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/bill-
shorte...](http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/bill-shorten-
attacks-data-retention-as-new-internet-tax/story-fn59niix-1227013916569)

~~~
girvo
Considering the opposition ushered through the new ASIO legislation without so
much as a peep, I'd say it's token resistance at this point.

~~~
robryan
Given this, if you care strongly about these issues it is hard to vote for
either of the 2 major parties anymore.

~~~
RVuRnvbM2e
[http://pirateparty.org.au/](http://pirateparty.org.au/)

~~~
hadoukenio
How about The WikiLeaks Party:

    
    
      http://www.wikileaksparty.org.au/
    

It's really ironic that the exact laws that they are trying to pass go
directly against the party's ethos and are directly aimed at putting Assange
in jail!

~~~
ParadisoShlee
Those clownshoes don't need any encouragement.

