
Gentoo Ought to Be About Choice - chei0aiV
https://rich0gentoo.wordpress.com/2016/02/27/gentoo-ought-to-be-about-choice/
======
anonbanker
Nobody in gentoo wants systemd. it's there in the handbook, and one step
specifically adds two special flags when mounting disks, in order to shut
systemd up. But you have to click another link in the handbook to install
systemd, because it's _not default_ , and only a few of the default profiles
use systemd. many specifically avoid it. If you ask how to install systemd in
#gentoo, the first question is usually "why?"

Let's put it this way:

there are a few of us (including myself) in #gentoo with a file called
"FuckLennartPoettering" residing within /etc/portage/package.mask/. in this
file, you will find:

    
    
      sys-apps/systemd
      sys-fs/udev
      net-misc/networkmanager
    

Some of us have _switched distributions_ because our "choice" has been limited
to Gentoo, in order to customize poettering and freedesktop.org's poisonous
attack on the GPL and GNU out of our system. I've personally set up JACK,
WPA_GUI, and eudev/OpenRC on all my corporate systems (running KDE Plasma 5.5
and Frameworks 5.18) so I can avoid the pain that comes from NetworkManager,
PulseAudio and systemd. My life is better for it.

~~~
lrvick
"nobody in gentoo wants systemd"

Hi I am nobody. Nice to meet you.

~~~
anonbanker
see, if you guys were just honest, and just openly stated "we're trying to
replace GNU with freedesktop.org", it'd be one thing. But you're not. You're
astroturfing, and artificially generating "demand" for systemd in Gentoo.

Your lifestyle choice of systemd is accepted by the rest of us. But don't
pretend you'll ever be in the majority.

------
lrvick
I am a Gentoo user, and I use systemd. I also feel like I am at an AA meeting
or something every time I state this fact.

I have heard all the arguments against systemd and many are totally valid.
Some of the implementations and management of the project leaves a lot to be
desired.

That said, I have run Gentoo on my home desktop for over a decade, Arch on
personal/work laptops, Debian on some personal development shell boxes, and
CoreOS/Debian on the hundreds of servers I maintain between work/volunteer
projects. I may touch all of these in a given day, and I can't tell you how
great it is for my personal sanity to be able to run 'systemctl restart ...'
or 'journalctl -fu someservice' on any of them. Having a common set of core
system tools available across desktop/server distributions has huge
advantages.

Also there are some real advantages of systemd design (bloated or not) a lot
of people overlook. For one, I help maintain shell services for the general
public. Giving users root is of course not sane, but at the same time users
are constantly wanting to run their own databases, webservers, etc. Since
migrating to systemd we can just tell them "create a unit file in
~/.config/systemd/units with whatever you want, and it will become a system
daemon run as your user". This is a huge win for security, administration
ease, and usability.

I have also used Gentoo to build base images for embedded systems with minimal
resources, and systemd would of been a terrible choice for those use cases. It
would of been a terrible choice for ChromeOS.

Choice is what Gentoo has always been about. Let's quit the zealotry and
ensure Gentoo continues to be the Linux OS that offers the maximum choices to
include the right tools for the problem you are solving.

I fully support the author here.

~~~
anonbanker
You're trying to tell us that, prior to systemd, Gentoo was a terrible choice
for base images?

Embedded wants parallel startup gains, sure, but there are videos floating
around youtube of embedded systems booting linux kernels and a full GNU base
system _in less than a second_ using init scripts. Why the hell would you want
a non-predictible bootup (which systemd does in the name of "speed in bootup")
on an embedded system?

All my KVM/Qemu VM's are currently gentoo (and arch+OpenRC) based. most use
less than 10MB _total_. systemd requires more than 5 times that amount _by
default_. CoreOS _starts_ with gentoo and then _strips it further_ , and it
doesn't use systemd at all.

Gentoo (minus systemd) is the base of ChromeOS and ChromiumOS. You had to have
known that. I refuse to believe that you're one of the lucky 10,000 XKCD talks
about.

Your post, and the main article, are just quiet astroturfing/zealotry. You
guys have plenty of distributions. We heard Lennart's "wake-up call", and
ignored it, because he was leading the march towards _a new operating system_.
We like GNU. We don't particularly like/need/want the Violate-GPL-Over-RPC
functionality system Poettering implemented in PID1.

Gentoo is not denying choice. We're denying you guys the right to have systemd
be a default. The safest distros (Void, Gentoo, Calculate) are all avoiding
systemd on purpose. You certainly have the choice to compromise your system
and taint your GNU system, but don't expect your silly march off the cliff to
become the default for those of us left with actual GNU systems.

------
citizensixteen
Curious, are there any HN readers out there who use Gentoo? If so, how do you
find that it differs from other linux distros?

I have been intimidated with the idea of 'building from source'. Recently I
have been curious about trying Gentoo and BSD, but every time I do some
research it is not encouraging.

~~~
anonbanker
Militant Gentoo user here with a fleet of Calculate/Gentoo-based chromebooks
deployed. with quickpkg, I can flash and install a new chromebook in less than
5 minutes

Start with Calculate Linux. it's gentoo, but without the scary install, and
most of the packages are binary-based. If your package isn't binary'd already,
you'll have to wait for it to build. that'll take longer than you may expect.
If you're testing new packages, you may have to make an ebuild. Ebuilds are
surprisingly simple.

You _can_ use systemd if you enjoy that sort of massochism, but it's
definitely _not_ (recommended) required.

~~~
citizensixteen
Ok, thanks for the tip.

