

Lake fire grew after private drone flights disrupted air drops - nether
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-wildfires-southern-california-20150625-story.html#page=1

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Animats
The FAA's proposed rules [1] for small unmanned aircraft are quite reasonable.
"Small" means < 25Kg. Max altitude 500' AGL. (Manned aircraft have a minimum
altitude, usually 1000', so there's separation.) Visual line of sight to
operator. Operation in class G airspace (not near airport, low level) OK.
Operation in class A airspace (above 18,000') prohibited. Operation in class
B,C,D airspace (near airports, etc.) requires coordination with air traffic
control, and probably a transponder. (There are small UAV-sized transponders,
which make drones clearly visible on radar and ID them.) A UAV license will be
required, covering the regulations. The sky has rules of the road, and anyone
controlling a UAV needs to know them.

There may be a "micro UAV" (< 2Kg) category for toy-sized drones, with fewer
restrictions. That's still being discussed. A study on consequences of a drone
collision indicate that large aircraft could probably survive collisions with
2Kg drones without serious risk to the aircraft.[2] That doesn't mean no
damage, it means the aircraft can land safely. Any jet engine which takes a
bird strike gets a major overhaul, which costs upwards of $100K.

[1]
[https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/media/02...](https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/media/021515_sUAS_Summary.pdf)
[2] [http://www.uasamericafund.com/assets/micro-uav-safety-
analys...](http://www.uasamericafund.com/assets/micro-uav-safety-analysis.pdf)

~~~
bradleyland
This isn't really a counter-argument to anything you've said, but I'm curious
if those regulations would have prevented the circumstance here?

Do you happen to know what altitude firefighting aircraft fly at when they
drop? It would seem that 500' AGL would be on the high side if you expect the
fire suppression material to hit anywhere near the target site in any
reasonable level of concentration. I know nothing about the subject matter
though, so that could be a bad assumption.

~~~
Animats
Air traffic control around major incidents is covered in [1]. The FAA issues a
NOTAM (Notice to Airmen) which all Flight Service Stations receive, indicating
an incident area, which is usually a lat/long point and a radius. There's a
designated incident commander who has control of that airspace, and a way to
contact them. Any aircraft not in contact with the incident commander must
stay out of the area.

Pilots check NOTAMs before takeoff to see if there's anything going on they
need to know about. There's an FAA search engine for NOTAMS [2], and it will
accept lat/long coordinates. This is the sort of thing that the basic training
and exam for drone operators must cover - check the NOTAMs before flight.

For the San Bernandio Mountains fire, there's a NOTAM:

    
    
        ZLA   LOS ANGELES (ARTCC)PALMDALE, CA.
        !FDC 5/6263 ZLA CA..
        AIRSPACE SAN BERNARDINO, CA..
        TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS WITHIN AREA DEFINED AS 3 NM RADIUS 
        OF 340927N/1171437W (PARADISE VORTAC PDZ030020.2) SFC-6000FT. TO 
        PROVIDE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR FIRE FIGHTING. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR 
        SECTION 91.137(A)(2) TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS ARE IN EFFECT. 
        USFS TELEPHONE 909-383-5651 OR FREQ 123.775/STERLING FIRE IS IN 
        CHARGE OF THE OPERATION. 
        LOS ANGELES /ZLA/ ARTCC TELEPHONE 661-265-8205 IS THE FAA 
        COORDINATION FACILITY. 
        EFFECTIVE 1506260700-1507010700
    

This is the aerial equivalent of traffic cones set out around a trouble spot.

For a pilot, "busting a TFR" (entering an area with restrictions like that)
usually means a 30-90 day grounding. For something like actual interference
with aerial firefighting, the penalties would be much higher.

There's an app for this.[3] Small drone operators might use a dumbed-down
version which just gives you anything applicable to low-altitude operations
near your current location.

The sky has many users and traffic rules. Drone operators have to be very
aware of this.

[1]
[http://www.nifc.gov/nicc/logistics/references/Airspace_Guide...](http://www.nifc.gov/nicc/logistics/references/Airspace_Guide/Chapter07.docx)
[2]
[https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWeb/](https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWeb/)
[3]
[https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/notams/id354048843](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/notams/id354048843)

------
x0054
As a drone builder and pilot I hate stories like this. A few really stupid
people will eventually ruin this hobby for people like me. That being said,
why not simply snipe the drone out of the air rather than abort the mission? I
know that the drone going done could theoretically cause another potential
fire. But It strikes me that that's something the department is well equipped
to deal with as long as they can track where it crash lands. Just a thought.

~~~
thaumaturgy
There's no good way to do that. You'd be trying to hit a moving target from a
couple hundred feet away in probably windy conditions and maybe limited
visibility, and a bullet could pass between the quadcopter's arms without
doing any damage to it.

~~~
x0054
I am guessing that it's an airplane rather than a quad, because they reported
it to have a 4 foot wing span. I guess you have a point, I never shoot
anything from more than 80 yards, so it might be impossible. Maybe they need
attack drones of their own after all :)

~~~
thaumaturgy
Oh, right. I read that part and assumed it was a four-foot-across quad, but
that's a bit on the big side.

I wonder if a directed frequency jammer would work? That's fairly
straightforward.

~~~
Sanddancer
Jamming a frequency would cause more of a problem, because now you have an
/uncontrolled/ four foot across aircraft flying in restricted airspace. With a
controlled craft, you could at least get on bullhorns and try to yell at the
idiot flying the drone to stop.

~~~
thaumaturgy
The more advanced models -- the ones more likely to be flown by someone in
that situation -- have an automatic return-to-home function that kicks in if
it loses the connection to the radio.

On the cheaper models, I'd expect it to simply crash within a minute or two.
But it would be interesting to test that.

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tgflynn
The article says a hobby drown was spotted at 11000 ft. I didn't think such
drones typically flew anywhere near that high or were even capable of it. Or
is this happening in a high mountain area and the altitude above the local
terrain was actually much less ?

~~~
nathancahill
Yeah. San Bernadino has peaks up to 11,500 ft, so I'm guessing that's the
case. 11,500 above the ground is crazy high for a hobby drone.

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tantalor
What's the solution? Does the U.S. Forest Service create its own fleet of
attack drones? Orbital laser platform? Hack the radio control frequency?

Edit: Oh they already did! _The U.S. Forest Service requested a drone from the
Department of Defense_

~~~
ethanbond
Well if people keep doing this they'll just make drones harder and harder to
acquire. If people stop doing this, maybe we can all enjoy a pretty cool
hobby.

I'd imagine they'll start outfitting with some type of signal jammers? But I
don't know how drones behave when they're not receiving signal.

~~~
bobbles
Soon the US will have better drone control laws than it has gun control laws

~~~
dreamcompiler
That's because the US constitution says nothing about drones.

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zaroth
Is the simplest solution to just require transponders and a sales registry for
drones above a certain weight class? 4' wingspan is a serious drone, and I
think it's reasonable for all aircraft that big to have tail numbers and
transponders.

~~~
flashman
Not saying I disagree, but model aircraft don't require tail numbers or
transponders - in fact the FAA "may not promulgate any rule or regulation
regarding a model aircraft"[1] that meets certain criteria - so what makes
drones special?

Larger drones _could_ go over 55 pounds weight, and that might permit the FAA
to require vehicle registration. But that's beyond the scope of my knowledge.

[1]
[https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/Sec_331_336_UAS.pdf](https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/Sec_331_336_UAS.pdf)

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thaumaturgy
I built an ArduPilot quadcopter a while back and had some fun with it, but now
basic quads are available at Fry's for a hundred bucks or so and there are
going to be more stories like this.

I think requiring a basic license of some form is a good idea, along with
allowing FPV flight out-of-sight as long as you have an appropriate license,
but beyond that law enforcement is probably gonna end up having to get some
new tools to deal with this.

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onewaystreet
Maybe I'm ignorant here, but I picture a hobby drone hitting a DC-10 would be
like a bug hitting a car's windshield.

~~~
artmageddon
They're more dangerous than you think. When doing my private pilot training, I
had to be very aware of birds striking the windshield as they do have enough
energy in them to cause serious damage. Even passenger jets have issues with
them[0], and have been taken down as a result[1]

[0]: [http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Plane-Damage-0New-
York-...](http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Plane-Damage-0New-York-City-
John-F-Kennedy-Bird-Strike-296556631.html)

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549)

~~~
dzhiurgis
The point is you don't have a flock of drones. There is usually one drone. I
don't see how one drone can shut down two engines.

~~~
falcolas
Only need to shut down (or just damage) one to be a problem. 2.5 lbs of carbon
fiber, wires and motors at 100+ MPH would likely be more than enough to
destroy a turbofan.

~~~
dzhiurgis
You do not shut down airport if there is bird in the sky.

~~~
falcolas
Well, airports sometimes hire out hawks to keep birds out of the sky, and they
intentionally limit the speed of aircraft at altitudes where birds fly. If a
multirotor can fly higher than birds (they do), they could pose a
significantly greater threat than a flock of birds.

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sneak
Why was the DC10 manned?

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beedogs
Some prison time for these irresponsible man-children would be appropriate.

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dczx
I feel this was really poor decision making on the pilot and or his
commanders.

Imagine a building burning down, civilian car parked in front of said
building... Whoops operation is ruined, better turn around and do nothing.

So the real issue is the aircraft dispatcher doesn't know how to handle
emergency situations? This is horrible.

~~~
DrStalker
A parked car is easy to see and easy to predict what it will do next.

A drone is hard to keep track of and could move in any direction at any time,
and if it collides with the plane could knock it out of the sky.

