
Ask HN: ZOS/Cobol Development in Canada? - SuperPaintMan
Hey HN,
I&#x27;ve been playing around with zOS in Hercules and the MTM Learning System for the past few weeks learning how the internal plumbing of the system works and how to create Cobol programs and using tools like DB2, CICS, JCL &amp; whatnot and quite frankly I am absolutely in love with the system (as weird as that is to say about a development environment limited to the width of a punch card). I&#x27;m curious if anyone can weigh in on how the current landscape looks in Canada here and maybe give me some advice moving forward.<p>I currently do not have my CS degree, I attempted a few years back but failed out due to non-school related issues. Despite this, I have been working with Go&#x2F;React&#x2F;RN&#x2F;GAE with a few projects and small utilities for my own use, primarily stuff to scratch my own itch. I&#x27;m much more comfortable and capable on the backend using concurrent and distributed code but can hack together a janky frontend. Most of these projects are unpublishable. That and I live in the middle of Saskatoon Saskatchewan, not too many CS jobs out here and most of my CS pals that have graduated and stayed are employed in other functions. So relocation is pretty much required but I&#x27;m not looking to leave the country.<p>I&#x27;m coming up short on ideas to build that would both expand my Cobol knowledge, familiarity&#x2F;exposure to IBM system facilities and looks well in a Github repo. Could anyone point me in a decent direction for contemporary best practices&#x2F;codebases or just give me some project ideas to go bash my brain against? Short of that any sort of advice here would be wonderful.<p>Thanks all, I appreciate it.
======
CountHackulus
Hi, I worked on the C/C++ compiler for zLinux, the COBOL compiler for zOS, and
on the non-open-source version of Hercules.

If you've got zOS and COBOL knowledge then Toronto is the place for you. IBM
develops their zOS software in Toronto (well, Markham) mostly. At least the
compilers, DB2, and parts of WebSphere.

The other users are the major banks, and they're all headquartered in downtown
Toronto. They're desperately looking for people with zOS and COBOL knowledge,
I get plenty of recruiter emails for that despite not really having much COBOL
knowledge.

Honestly, if you apply for any of those jobs with even a passing familiarity
of COBOL you're pretty much guaranteed. Also, welcome to the mainframe club!

~~~
emersonrsantos
> Honestly, if you apply for any of those jobs with even a passing familiarity
> of COBOL you're pretty much guaranteed.

This is interesting. How the companies there react to the fact that one
doesn't have an academic degree despite IBM devops knowledge?

~~~
CountHackulus
That I honestly don't know. Everyone but one person in the compiler area had
at least a Bachelor's degree, and that one person had what was essentially a 4
year diploma. I'm not familiar enough with any of the areas or the bank hiring
to know for sure.

------
wilsonnb2
As others have said, Toronto should have about as many jobs as you can hope to
find for such an obscure part of software development these days.

A lot of zOS shops hire remote developers these days too, because it's hard to
find local people with the right skill set. I imagine it'd be pretty hard to
get a remote position as your first job, but it's a good option for the
second.

IBM themselves doesn't hire remote workers anymore though, at least I don't
think they do.

Banks are your best bet for COBOL, as well as certain parts of the government.
The IRS in the US still uses mainframes. Some big companies in the zOS world
that you might look into are BMC Software, Rocket Software, and CA
Technologies.

I would also recommend not limiting yourself to COBOL - plenty of mainframe
programming is still being done in high level assembler, c, and c++. If you
know CICS, DB2, and JCL already then it would probably be easy to get a job
writing Java for mainframes as well.

Also, if you really love zOS and want a degree, Marist College in upstate NY
has a degree program specifically for zOS. It's the only such program in the
world, as far as I know.

[http://idcp.marist.edu/enterprisesystemseducation/zosprogram...](http://idcp.marist.edu/enterprisesystemseducation/zosprogramoverview.html)

I graduated college in 2016 and have been working at a small company that
sells a high level assembler debugger for zOS since then. If you (or anyone
else reading this) have any more questions about zOS programming or the
mainframe industry in general, feel free to shoot me an email. My email
address should be on my profile.

~~~
SuperPaintMan
Thank god I just found a use for my dusty C skills, but I will have to pick up
Java. More languages in the toolkit never hurt right? As noted above the
gameplan right now is to get over to the GTA and keep working on my skills
until I can afford the move. A poster in the r/mainframe thread suggested
trying to get my floor in the door with a position in Ops and working up from
there would be a good idea. What are your thoughts?

The college looks interesting, but America. :(

~~~
wilsonnb2
Working in ops is a good plan - in the mainframe world, the people we would
normally call system administrators are called systems programmers or
sysprogs.

Sometimes you can find a specific position (being a sysprog for CICS and
nothing else, for example) or a more general role. Either way it's pretty easy
to move from sysprog to developer once you have some mainframe experience
because mainframe experience is so rare these days. You'll also be working
reasonably closely with the development teams, so that helps too.

------
dangerboysteve
The following company offers mainframe access for $125 month.
[http://maintec.com/mainframe-access.html](http://maintec.com/mainframe-
access.html)

Number of USERID’s: One USERID

Environment: Shared environment with RACF protection

Software Products: Only IBM Products Available (z/OS 1.4, TSO, ISPF, SDSF,
JCL, DB2 V7.1, CICS V2.2, COBOL, Assembler, PL/1) including FTP.

System Availability: 24x7 (Any planned outages with be informed in advance)

Contract: Month – Month with one month cancellation notice

CPU: No Limit – Managed by WLM

DASD: Sufficient DASD is available. Additional DASD available on cost basis.

Support: 24x7 E-Mail Support Available

Emulator : Trial version available from --
[http://www.tombrennansoftware.com/](http://www.tombrennansoftware.com/)

Cost: The cost would be $125/Month for 1 Userid

Consulting: Additional support / consulting available for $95/hr.

I looked at these guys a few months back, just like you down the zOS/ Hercules
rabbit hole. I lost interest and moved onto other things but never followed up
with this company so I don't know how good they are.

~~~
SuperPaintMan
I've been using the MTM System, and while slow I believe they're keeping the
lights on all year as opposed to only when the contest is running. If they
shut her down, I'll have to pick this up as a learning system.

------
xexers
Damn near every bank in Canada uses cobol on zOS and DB2. I'd suggest
searching job postings at all major banks. Likely you'd need to move to
Toronto though because that's where the bank HQs are. Also check out a company
called CGI... they have a few Cobol/mainframe positions open right now:

[https://cgi.njoyn.com/CGI/xweb/xweb.asp?page=joblisting&CLID...](https://cgi.njoyn.com/CGI/xweb/xweb.asp?page=joblisting&CLID=21001&CountryId=CA&lang=1)

Also, check out the Cobol cowboys:

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-banks-cobol-
idUSKBN17...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-banks-cobol-
idUSKBN17C0D8)

------
hluska
Small world, bud - I'm from Regina!

I don't work with Cobol, can't think of anyone who does and so I can't give
you any specific help in regards to finding a job. About the best I could
suggest would be to find one of the companies that do tons of consulting for
the government of sask, find someone with as much or more grey hair than me,
and send them a message on LinkedIn. There may be parts of the GOS that do
Cobol work, though I have no idea if that would be central services, whatever
the fuck they call the ITO now, or if they're deep in a department.

But, if you wrote this exact same post about a language I use all the time,
I'd likely suggest that you find a busy open source project in that language
and start trying to contribute. On Github, you can look up trending Cobol
projects - maybe you'll find one that you're interested in. The joy of open
source is that you'll often get to work with some amazing developers who can
help you level up your skills. The other joy of open source is that if you
prove yourself, most maintainers are excellent help during a job hunt!!

~~~
SuperPaintMan
Fucking rights bud, I know a few greybeards down with the city so reaching out
would be a great idea. There's not much talent or tech here so It wouldn't
surprise me to find an old mainframe running parts of the show.

As far as github there are only 758 total repos for it, so I'll need to do
some serious digging to find something to work on that's active. Half the
reason I made this thread was to get ideas on what to hack up and publish
after all.

I'll tell you what, if you find yourself up is Stoon give me a shout. Would
love to rip some shittys and hack some darts with ya. Just look me up on FB or
email me :)

~~~
hluska
You know, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the talent in
Saskatchewan. There are some incredibly smart developers here doing some very
interesting things. Saskatoon in particular has a couple of very interesting
startups. Our winters are an incredible advantage and people here,
particularly older adults (75+) always root for innovation. Our media
landscape is also very solid and if you're launching something, you can assume
you'll be able to get meaningful coverage. The coverage isn't always as
critical as it should be, but every place has things to work on.

I bet that if you ask around, you'll find some local Cobol. Heck, I bet
there's some running at some of the credit unions.

Good luck to you!

~~~
SuperPaintMan
I guess what I meant is compared to $US_TECHHUB, definitely met some
extrodinarly talented people but it seems a bunch that stuck around got
shafted in the race for the few jobs avalible, but the praries have their own
sort of flattened beauty.

You got one thing right though, the long winters make for ample amounts of
time to work. Hit the Humptys on Albert during the early morning with your
laptop and a window booth, beats those -30C blues into oblivion :)

~~~
hluska
I've had a couple of job issues in my day, so I can't deny the truth behind
your first paragraph.

But, your second paragraph is just chilling enough that I have to ask who are
you really? If your first name is Ben, this is the best prank I've ever been a
part of...this really means a lot and I'm touched, though I can't for the life
of me imagine how you remember 271 at Humpty's. Heck, I thought you were too
smart to even know the less capable worked there!! :)

~~~
SuperPaintMan
Wish I was who you're talking about, name's Jeremy though. Sent you a message
on Facebook though, hit me up bud :)

~~~
hluska
Hey Jeremy, good to meet you. I don't really use Facebook - in fact, I don't
think I've actually updated anything since before my kid was born. My email
though is in my profile. I'll try to figure out Facebook and get back to you,
but if you don't hear from me, blame my age and email me! :)

------
neverartful
How did you get copies of zOS, DB2, CICS, etc.? I've played around with
Hercules and really old versions of VM/CMS and MVS, but nothing modern, as I
didn't think that one could legally do it. Maybe that's changed. I think it
would really be in IBM's interests to make their z-series software accessible
for those who want to learn on Hercules.

~~~
SuperPaintMan
Yeah, there's no legal way to do it. That being said IBM does run a training
system for Master The Mainframe that's extremely useful and always has a few
active users

------
Spooky23
Honestly, it’s a dead end, with little innovation happening and alot of
outsourcing. There are few/no new customers on these platforms and most new
work is on platforms like Websphere if the bank loves IBM.

Tech is an amazing, growing, evolving field. Don’t settle, and don’t make your
life dependent on IBM’s fortunes — that time passed 30 years ago!

~~~
southern_cross
From what I understand, mainframes and similar systems have now reached a
point where they're quite "sticky". That is, if they haven't already been
replaced by now then there are excellent reasons why they're perhaps going to
stick around indefinitely. For one, every time another big ransomware attack
occurs, which has cost several big companies months of work and hundreds of
millions of dollars to try and clean up, the Big Iron folks look at that and
go "Thank goodness we're [relatively] immune to such attacks!" And I once had
to personally step in and temporarily revive a zombie but somewhat critical
Wintel server which had been attacked in some fashion (the server folks had
just given up on it, although finding and correcting the problem itself was
pretty trivial), and while I was doing that I remember thinking that such an
attack was basically impossible on the bigger systems which I often work on.
And so on.

Plus, the economics of "scale out" vs. "scale up" don't necessarily look so
hot, at least once you reach a certain number of servers. These days you can
avoid that to a certain extent my moving at least some of your work to the
cloud, but the cloud folks themselves aren't immune to this, either, and I
believe they're already starting to figure that out.

As far as tech being "an amazing, growing, evolving field", as an old-timer
I've grown quite accustomed to looking into some "new" tech only to realize
that it's really a rehash of tech from maybe decades ago, just with a new name
and a new coat of paint. Given that supposedly at any given moment something
like half of the folks in IT have less than five years experience (they're
noobs, in order words), I guess that it shouldn't be too surprising that they
keep running into problems and reinventing solutions to those problems which
were already worked out decades ago.

------
jbarham
The Canadian federal government uses a lot of COBOL.

My first job out of university in 1996 was maintaining COBOL programs that fed
data from Revenue Canada to the CPP. My first task was to rewrite a COBOL
program originally written in 1972 into "modern" COBOL-85! Which is to say
that COBOL shops are not exactly on the cutting edge of technology. So I quit
doing COBOL programming in 1998 after I'd paid off my student debt and taught
myself C++ (although nowadays I use Python and Go).

Having said that, mainframes are still competitive in their niche (high
performance batch processing) which is why they're still around. But as a
career option you have to keep in mind that it won't be technically
stimulating and you're probably vulnerable to the work being outsourced
overseas to cheap body shops.

------
gt2
Genuinely interested: When you say you are in love with the system, is it
because you think of yourself as kind of a luddite programmer, or do you
believe there's something that mainframes and Cobol do that other stacks
can't?

Or are you looking for work that pays a premium due to the obscure skillset?

~~~
SuperPaintMan
Because it's the closest thing to alien tech that I've come across. It
maintains compatibility for programs compiled in the 60s while still pushing
the boundaries of modern tech. Hell, go take a look at a fully configured z14
and tell me that isn't a beautiful work of art (capable of handling thousands
of users across thousands of virtualized or native systems). The interface is
archaic as a poster under commented but there is some serious machine
underneath it, with amazing amounts of documentation and established audited
code. I cut my teeth on Linux/BSD systems and the way these systems are
engineered is both elegant and thought out instead of heaping piles of duct
tape. Although seeing the unit of measurement of "Cards" every now and again
does get a giggle out of me.

Also: "Yeah but oh man, wouldn't you just love to get one of those Gibsons,
baby? Ooooh!"

~~~
southern_cross
"capable of handling thousands of users across thousands of virtualized or
native systems": Yeah, the systems that I often work on can usually handle
those kinds of work loads with extreme reliability and efficiency without even
breaking a sweat. Meanwhile the server folks will look at that kind of stuff
and almost wet themselves.

On "cards": Open a terminal session or a command prompt on almost any system
("new" or "old"), and it will generally default to being 80 columns wide.
Guess where that default comes from!

~~~
SuperPaintMan
I knew about 80 just being a standard but put into the context of punch cards
it just makes sense. Same thing with cobol, max line length is 80, first seven
are stripped from compile, comments start on line 7. Who thought 72 char lines
were a good idea in a language? Guys that dropped a few too many stacks of
cards.

Thank god for the continuation character.

------
jcloud_dev
RBC in Toronto is using COBOL on IBM mainframes. They have plenty of in-house
developers.

------
ja27
I worked for a company that did integration work for the IBM market. Every
Fortune 500 retailer we dealt with had zOS playing a big role in their
enterprise and did not seem to have any plans to change that. Lack of a CS
degree didn't hold back any of my coworkers. Most had some form of STEM degree
but the degree didn't matter for experienced hires. It's tough getting that
first job experience though.

Don't overlook OpenText though they hire a lot from U of Waterloo.

------
sengork
Search for "IBM Z DevOps" they're trying to revitalise the platform with
modern development practices.

Also banks are large users of Cobol so that ecosystem wpuld be good to keep an
eye on.

------
frfl
Never thought I'd be searching 'cobol jobs', but even a quick look reveals
dozens (in Toronto). If you search for any other major city, I'm sure you'll
fine a few others. Banks and other major slow moving big co.'s are probably
the best bet.

------
theluketaylor
Lots of posters have mentioned the big banks in Toronto which is absolutely
correct, but the big insurers use zOS heavily as well. Waterloo region has a
number of big insurance companies and is a lot less expensive than Toronto.

------
southern_cross
I see that you've already discovered /r/mainframe. Terminal Talk is a good
resource to keep an eye on, too:
[http://terminaltalk.net](http://terminaltalk.net)

------
patrickg_zill
Check the banks - they all are likely to have mainframes somewhere.

~~~
wilsonnb2
Visa is a heavy user of zOS as well, as are some of the other credit card
companies.

------
tskguarantee
Looking for a Job? Try The Guaratee Company of North America's website and
send a resume to the hr email.
[https://www.theguarantee.com/en/about/careers](https://www.theguarantee.com/en/about/careers)

