
Ask HN: Why does academia still publish in for-profit journals? - AlphaWeaver
As a teenager who has just graduated high school, and is evaluating entering the university research scene, this is a question that has stuck in my mind for a while. I have seen countless articles here, and elsewhere, explaining why for-profit journals for scientific papers is a bad idea... Why is the problem still so prolific?<p>Is it a result of the interests of the researchers not aligning with the decision-makers, an issue with lobbying, or something else?
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detaro
Academics generally are rated by the prestige and number of their publications
when it comes to who gets their contract extended or who gets tenure.
Prestigious publications happen in prestigious journals (or often conferences
in CS, but same principle), the prestigious journals almost all are for-profit
(and of course that causes the ugly feedback loop that the best papers only
are submitted to those journals, further establishing them as good journals).

In most fields, submitting to a "lower-quality" venue when you could get into
a better one means unnecessarily risking damage to your career (or, in case of
established, tenured professors, who don't have to care so much about their
own ranking, damage to their co-authors'). Also, most universities have access
to all important journals, so they don't feel the pain of closed access so
much.

While they might like the idea of alternative venues, the universities
incentivize them to optimize for "impact factor".

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evolve2k
There is something going on with academics being told to maximize their impact
factor.

Impact Factor is a score derived from how often the average article in the
journal is cited over the last 5 years.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_factor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_factor)

Deriving then from this an academic is then encouraged to maximize their own
score and new academics have only a few years to get their score up if they
want to compete for tenure.

I'm not sure but there seems to be something in the way your score is
calculated to make academics want to publish in certain journals to increase
their score.

[http://researchguides.uic.edu/if](http://researchguides.uic.edu/if)

It sounds like a glorified page rank system, with people wanting to keep
getting their own page rank up by getting links from the historically highest
page rank sites.

I wonder is there a way to hack the system to shift the scoring in favor of
open access?

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impendia
Signalling effects.

Imagine that you are one of five hundred postdocs applying for your dream
professorship. Your papers are so highly technical that the hiring committee
won't be able to judge them directly (certainly not before you make the short
list).

The most important component of your job application is your recommendation
letters. But also very important is your CV, and hiring departments will want
to see where you have published. Journals like _Inventiones Mathematicae_ ,
_Journal for die reine und angewandte Mathematik_ , _Publications
mathématiques de l 'IHÉS_, and so on have developed a reputation for
publishing only outstanding papers, and so your CV will stand out if you have
published them. Less so if you have published only in, say, _Indagationes
Mathematicae_.

Same when you are applying for tenure, promotion, grants, etc. Basically any
time you need to demonstrate to anyone outside your immediate specialty that
you are doing top-notch work.

This could be done in other ways; indeed I would have better use for my brain
cells than to keep track of a Byzantine hierarchy of journal quality -- but
for now the system is quite entrenched.

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tnecniv
The flip side of all the prestige incentives that everyone mentioned is that
there's little downside. Either your institution will foot the bill for the
cost of publication or it's built into grants. On the other end, the
institutions researchers are affiliated with pay for access to many of the top
journals and, even if you don't have direct access to the journal version of a
paper, you can normally find it somewhere else, like the author's website.

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jldugger
For better or worse, tenure evaluations are a crazy important part of academic
life in the US. You have roughly five years to produce enough research of a
high enough quality to earn the right to keep doing said research.

The three common metrics for evaluating are:

1\. citations -- highly cited papers are evidence of contributing to academic
society

2\. impact factor -- papers published in highly selective journals that peer
reviews submissions are considered better

3\. money -- AFAIK nobody says this out loud, but if your department can't
bring in revenue to support you and your researchers, your tenure case is on
thin ice.

~~~
ferdterguson
In my field, if you get a TT position and play nice, you usually get tenure.
But yeah - it's basically all about money. You can't do good research if you
don't have solid funding, you don't get solid funding unless you have good
research in high impact journals.

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paulsutter
AI publishing is virtually all on Arxiv. Conferences replace the role of
journals (for example getting a paper accepted at NIPS, ICLR, ICML, etc). And
I find out about important papers on Arxiv Sanity or even Twitter.

------
nnn1234
Great point by detaro. Issue is convincing the ivy league or some league of
universities to adopt open public standards. Better yet make a taxes being
used unfairly argument to make a law that every instituion that takes public
money has to open access their work.

~~~
kem
fwiw, it's important to remember that there's a lot of diversity involved.

In my university, for example, the library pushes _hard_ for movement toward
open public standards. I've also seen junior faculty make efforts to publish
in open journals. But then those junior faculty get slammed by [some] senior
faculty for not publishing in higher profile journals and not having enough of
an impact factor.

There's also a lot of legitimate grievances against open journals, due to the
financial incentives that are created and the types of review processes that
are encouraged by their policies.

So there's a chicken-and-egg factor and a lot of disagreement about what
should be happening.

Personally, I think there should be a huge shift in publishing practices in
academics, but it's going to take some time.

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JeSnuster
They don't have the strength to revolt. These are the people who give away
their creative output for pennies, suckered by the fake dream of recognition,
when they could be capturing so much more of the value they create, if they
weren't willing slaves to publishers, governments and nasty corporations that
exploit their idealism to suck them dry, and instead acted entrepreneurially.
Academia is the exploited worker class of the knowledge economy, and I'm a
capitalist.

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Amir6
Probably one of the biggest scams of all time!

\- You do a lot of work and put a lot of effort doing state of art and novel
research (by mostly using tax payers money through research grants coming from
government)

\- You pay for publishing while giving up all your rights (including
copyright) and violating tax payers rights by punting the results of their
money behind a paid wall!

-Someone will sell that research results to another researcher (maybe the colleague next door!) and make profit

3 wastes of money and 2 absolutely pointless profits made using this ill
phased circle.

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joeclark77
There is a lively debate in the Western world about just how free the free
market should be, but very few even on the political left think that "for-
profit" == "evil". If the publishing business model works for the researchers,
the universities, and the publishers, what's wrong with it? No need to fix
what isn't broken.

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ben_jones
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends
upon his not understanding it"

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kronos29296
Prestige, Resume and Career. We have system in place for this. You don't get
hired without credentials. In academia it is publications and only big
publishers like Elsevier, Springer, Wiley etc are acknowledged. Kinda like
Microsoft, Google, Apple in software.

~~~
c12
I seem to remember one of my lecturers having to get their doctoral research
published in a journal before they could pass the course.

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deepnotderp
AI publishes in arXiv. There's still hope ;)

~~~
tnecniv
Many fields do but everyone, including AI, submits to conferences and journals
because arXiv is not peer reviewed.

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codesnik
what if legally compel to publish public funded research results only in open
access journals?

~~~
detaro
Some funding sources do that, but note that open access does not mean non-
commercial: in case of commercial journals it typically means paying a
publishing fee.

