
Pakistan airline admits taking extra passengers in aisle - rishabhd
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39081476
======
OliverJones
Years ago I had a conversation with a Pan Am flight attendant who worked a
Teheran evacuation flight after the Pahlavi "dynasty" was deposed and the US
nationals had to clear out of Iran quickly. She told me they filled their
Boeing 747's aisles with people sitting on the floor.

She told me it's a calculated risk to put passengers in the aisles.

But, the captain of the flight knew exactly what was going on and made the
decision to proceed. It sounds like this PIA flight crew concealed their
overloading from the captain. THAT is a very serious infraction indeed.

~~~
metalon
In 1991, Israel evacuated 14325 Ethiopian Jews in 36 hours using 35 aircraft,
with up to 1122 passengers on a plane [1]. It's such an impressive feat, those
must have been some of the best pilots, to be able to fly such an overcrowded
plane (even though they stripped the seats from the planes it was probably
still overloaded)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon)

~~~
joecool1029
Not to knock the accomplishment but to be fair, the passengers were really
light (confirmed according to article).

This comment sent me on a journey to find obesity data on Ethiopia and I found
this ranked list that tied back to the CIA factbook as source and places them
next to last (currently):
[http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=et&v=2228](http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=et&v=2228)

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Yeah, people are about the density of water but even an isle full of people
isn't enough to be too meaningful to an airliner. The only times it may be a
problem would be a short runway with a full fuel load at altitude. Airliner
are typically flown well within it's performance limits. No airline would
allow a flight plan that's close to the maximum performance of the aircraft
since it would be a recipe for disaster in addition to hard on equipment.

Keeping the cargo secure and the wrench that extra passengers throws into
emergency procedures is the real issue here.

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ahussain
I'm curious, on a scale of 1-10 how big of a transgression do people consider
this to be?

When I was in India it was common to have people sitting in the aisles on long
distance buses, trains, and theatre halls where fire evacuation plans were
clearly not being followed. Agreed, planes are not theatre halls, but how
severe of a breach in public safety is this? I think planes are a special case
because they are such fragile systems, but it does seem like in the West we
worship health and safety a little too much.

~~~
4ad
I would give this incident 1/10\. It's mind boggling to me why people think
this is a big deal.

Speaking of theatres and other venues, overcrowding them is way worse. For
once, they actually do catch on fire much more often then planes fall from the
sky. I consider overcrowding a theatre criminal negligence, while I couldn't
care less about (minimally!!) overcrowding a plane.

~~~
quirkafleeg
As it says in the article:

    
    
        Such an over-crowded flight would have caused
        problems in an emergency evacuation, aviation
        experts said, and passengers would not have
        had access to oxygen if it was suddenly required. 
    

Additionally, you don't wear a seatbelt on a plane to save you from a crash,
you wear it to stop yourself being injured during turbulence, or from injuring
someone else by being thrown onto them. Obviously these people did not have
seatbelts.

~~~
jon-wood
I don't know if this is actually true, but I read recently that in the case of
a crash the seatbelt isn't there to stop you dying, its to keep your body
attached to your assigned seat so that you can be identified afterwards.

~~~
FabHK
A myth. Sure, there are accidents where everyone perishes with or without
seatbelt (and those make the headlines), but there are surprisingly many
accidents where some or many people survive.

> "between 1983 and 2000, more than 95 percent of people involved in U.S.
> plane crashes survived."

[http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=2619382&page=1](http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=2619382&page=1)

~~~
4ad
I agree that it is a myth, but that statistic is misleading, the definition
used for "plane crash" is not one most people would agree with.

~~~
FabHK
Fair enough, but bottom line is that lots can happen on a flight that might
injure you, without necessarily being a prototypical plane crash. So better
wear your seat belts.

Similarly, I take off my shoes during long flights, but make sure to have them
on for take-off and landing, in case of evacuation.

------
justin66
Even if the safety issues surrounding people in the aisle were negligible,
there's the Van Halen-M and M factor. If the airline is ignoring this rule,
what other rules are they ignoring?

~~~
startupdiscuss
Don't give them ideas - now they're going to throw out all the green
passengers!

------
bane
I took a flight from Yekaterinburg to Moscow in the 90s, and there was a delay
while they added some of the chairs back to the plane because they had been
moving some furniture in the cabin. I mean, like dressers and dining room
tables and such.

heh...Aeroflot

~~~
kylehotchkiss
Aeroflot in the 90s: you sir or madam are a hero for patronizing this airline

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ijafri
something that's being ignored, there are three possibilities, and its' never
PIA that it will prefer it let alone advertise aisle... It's about 2.30 hr
flight from Karachi to Medina.

1\. They are labors. and they can't miss the working day, they beg to fly in
aisle

2\. 99.9% is above, other than some religious pilgrims, who have tight
schedule ...

3\. PIA is dirt cheap for Karachi to Medina compared to _ahem_ Emirates

And it wasn't as uncommon than one could think, until recent times, few
decades ago, it was pretty regular thing for Karachi to Lahore (local flight
... 1 hr approx) ... as people have to meet certain time to perform a job ....
and back then there were no local carrier compared to dozen of them now, and
about 20+ KHI to LHE daily flights.

It's terrible, but chalking it up entirely to PIA is bit unfair...

~~~
jessaustin
Thanks for making the connection. If these were Pakistani laborers, everyone's
Westernized weight estimate of 100kg/person is about 50% too high.

------
alexvoda
It perplexes me that there are HN'ers who do not understand the risks
involved. I can understand that the passengers involved do not have an
alternative that ensures their short term livelihood and may not be aware of
the risks. But seeing some of the HN'ers, who one would assume have a high
school understanding of physics, have the same careless attitude is
surprising.

~~~
rwc
They're just hacking rigid and outdated laws about transportation. Pakistan
International is the Uber of the skies!

~~~
FabHK
nice one :-)

------
robtaylor
Record is 1,122 passengers on a 747 to Israel
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon)
however that was extraordinary circumstances.

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tim333
I had that years ago (~1983) on a flight in China on CAAC. They put a couple
of regular plastic chairs in the isle. CAAC didn't have the best safety record
at the time.

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nautical
The flight in question went from Karachi to Medina carrying a total of 416
passengers, on a Boeing 777 with a total seating capacity of 409, including
staff seats. !!

~~~
nautical
Were the passengers standing while taking off ?

~~~
dingaling
All passengers were seated, airline non-revs were on portable jump-seats. Per
Captain's discretion.

Maximum certificated escape capacity for a 777-300ER is 550.

~~~
tossaway1
What flight are you referring to? The article says extra passengers were
allowed to stand in the aisles. It also says the captain was unaware until
after takeoff.

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nautical
[https://web.archive.org/web/20140802021208/http://www.boeing...](https://web.archive.org/web/20140802021208/http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/startup/pdf/777_perf.pdf)

~~~
jwilk
↑ Performance summaries of (some?) 777 models.

Not sure how's that relevant to this article, though...

~~~
nautical
Specifies passenger and cargo limits

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FabHK
I had relatives in the airline industry, and the backronym going around for
PIA (Pakistan International Airlines), which was quite crash-prone back in the
days (30 hull losses, according to Wikipedia) was "Please inform Allah"...

------
droithomme
I've been on several overseas flights, including on US based airlines, where
people were stuffed in the aisle. It seems to me to be a dangerous practice,
but flight safety standards tend to be more lackadaisical outside the US.

~~~
kchoudhu
Which US airline? There's a fat old FAA investigation and fine waiting for it
when you report them (as you should!).

~~~
droithomme
One of them was United. I did in fact report the incident to the FAA. Because
the flight started and ended outside the US they had no jurisdiction and
rejected my report.

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kc10
Isn't the captain responsible for checking the count of people onboard the
aircraft before takeoff?

------
Razengan
Pretty much all transport vehicles in Pakistan do this; taking on more
passengers than there are seats.

------
jstanley
What's the problem? I'm sure those passengers would rather stand in the aisle
and get there on time than sit at the airport waiting for the next plane...

~~~
audeyisaacs
All passengers are required to have a chair for safety reasons. The chairs
absorb a lot of impact in the case of a crash, and obviously they also have
seatbelts which are important for safety.

