

Hackruiter (YC S10) Launches Hacker School - davidbalbert
http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/06/sv-angel-and-founder-collective-give-hackruiter-200k-for-its-hacker-school/

======
j2labs
My name is James Dennis and I was in batch[0]. I'm the guy with the red
headphones on <http://www.hackerschool.com/>.

I originally met Dave and Nick through the outgoing hacker community in NYC. I
say outgoing because the community here self-selects into people looking to
bond over programming. Sure enough, Dave, Nick and Sonali were part of it. I
met Sonali during Hacker School.

I was somewhat aware of Hackruiter and felt they were really smart. They
always asked lots of questions and helped me reinforce my understanding of
things.

Dave and I went out for dinner and he told me the idea was to have a bunch of
smart people in a room and see what happens when they all also like coding. I
had been working on a few frameworks one the side, Brubeck and DictShield, and
thought it'd be great to work with a bunch of other people.

We all introduced ourselves at Hacker School's first day and talked about what
we intended to work on. All of us had that slight impatience like when we want
to get working. We also all had that same curiosity where you want to know
what you can learn and share with other people.

Everyone had really awesome ideas. Everyone completed lots of awesome ideas.
We talked about programming, heard talks from awesome guests, discussed
concurrency, functional programming, distributed systems, python, ruby,
erlang, c, javascript, node.js, brubeck, zeromq, nginx... the list just keeps
going on because the group knew when to talk and share ideas and when to just
put the headphones on and hack.

I wrote a lot of code for Brubeck and DictShield. I also built a link sharing
example site called ListSurf. Then I built it in a more elaborate way and
called that Readify. I got a lot of stuff done.

I reached out to my friends to find those that had that same values and
creative drive as the first group and I'm happy to say a bunch of them went
and really enjoyed it.

The second batch, batch[1], was just as awesome. Two of my friends from the
Dumbo Tech Breakfast were there. A friend from NYCPython was there. New
friends came from law school, ran a beef jerky shop, have built music sites,
have taught programming classes and managed libraries.

I have met some of my favorite people through Hacker School. That's an amazing
gift to receive for free. I spent every Saturday with Hacker School during
batch[1], even though I was in batch[0].

Never graduate.

~~~
yeukhon
This is great. I'd like to attend, but as an undergraduate not sure how much
can I do with classmates as I imagine most people have been coding for a long
time. Yet, Hacker school sounds like an awesome place to go to right after
college.

~~~
davidbalbert
You don't necessarily have to have been coding for a long time. You just have
to be smart, love programming, and be willing to learn. If you're not sure,
apply anyway :)

------
pg
This sounds like a crazy plan for a startup, I realize, but this is the right
sort of crazy. In fact, the way the Hackruiters think about Hacker School is a
lot like the way we initially thought about YC: if it doesn't make money, it
will at least have been a benevolent thing to do.

~~~
mhartl
Indeed.

    
    
        We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question which divides us
        is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct. 
        
        —Niels Bohr
    

Sometimes the same goes for startups.

~~~
glimcat
Regarding startups, I would usually include the third line of the quote.

    
    
        My own feeling is that it is not crazy enough.

------
jjw
I'm John, and I was one of the six students in the original batch[0] that met
over the summer. I've only been out of college a few years (so YMMV if you're
more experienced), but for me Hacker School was one of the two or three most
important adventures I've had. (And, like most good things, I believe the
benefits are ongoing.)

I first met the Hackruiters in June when I got in touch looking for a job. I
had moved to NYC two years before to work at a non-profit and was ready for a
new challenge. My best friend and I had spent the better part of a year
moonlighting on side projects we dreamed might become startups, and--even
though they went nowhere--I had realized I wanted to get back into
programming.

Dave set up a Skype date and I told him about my background: I'd been a
math/science kid who spent his teens coding, but ended up studying art history
and architecture (because of varied interests) in school. I had done some
technical internships, though, and was curious if I could rebrand myself. What
kind of work could I do to make myself a better coder and ultimately become a
developer? Dave had some initial suggestions and we agreed to talk again after
a while.

I'll never forget sitting in the most boring staff meeting of my life and
opening up Gmail to find a short (but warm!) e-mail from Dave asking if I'd
like to join a school for hackers. There were to be no teachers, no
assignments, and the dates and location were still totally in flux. It sounded
perfect. Within the week, I arranged to take a leave of absence from my job.
New York is not cheap, but I'd spent two years packing my lunch and avoiding
taxis in the hopes that I would be ready when a cool, slightly risky
opportunity came along.

I've spent a lot of time talking about my own background for two reasons.
First, I hope you can empathize with me and--in doing so--will consider
applying. I think there are many people with non-CS backgrounds who would
benefit from and be a benefit to Hacker School. The other reason, however, is
that Hacker School is exactly what you expect: if you can imagine a month (or
three) working on projects that interest you with some of the brightest folks
in the most exciting city in the U.S., then you've pictured it precisely.

Many alums will talk about the employment benefits of Hacker School; indeed, I
honed my coding skills and talked to 6 NYC-based startups, eventually short-
circuiting interviews after falling in love with one where I now work. For me,
however, Hacker School was about finding a home with the kindest, most egoless
group of smart folks I've met--a group that Dave, Sonali, and Nick are
especially skilled at assembling. If this sounds like your thing, you should
give it a shot--and I'll buy you a beer/coffee some Saturday when we (students
and alums alike) head out in the evening to talk code and socialize.

------
jyli7
If you (1) love programming, (2) want to become a much better programmer (e.g.
want to really understand how things work), and (3) want to surround yourself
with smart, hyper-curious, and extremely positive/encouraging people, then you
should definitely do HS, even if it means taking time out of college or grad
school.

I'm a batch[1] alumnus and law-school student who, prior to Hacker School, had
been programming for only about a month. I did Hacker School concurrently with
law school, but my attention split between the two was about 99:1. Before I
started HS, I knew only the very basics -- the stuff you might find in the
first 3-4 chapters of your standard introductory Python book. Once I started
Hacker School, my knowledge absorption rate shot up at least five fold. This
is because it is hard to overestimate the value of:

(1) working next to people like Dave/Nick (HS co-founders), who will not just
answer your programming question -- but spend the next 3 hours of their time
happily explaining to you the intricacies of 15 other topics related to your
question, all the while infecting you with their enthusiasm for those topics;

(2) having the structure that Hacker school provides -- the morning check-ins,
the spontaneous white-board-assisted discussions, the Saturday presentations
-- to help you tackle those projects you've always wanted to start/complete;

(3) simply being in the physical proximity of people who love programming,
people who will show you how much you still have left to learn, and make you
excited about learning it.

I'm now leaving law school to work at a software development company in San
Francisco, which is a development that I certainly did not think was possible
after just 3.5 months of serious coding. So yeah, HS can make you employable
too, and probably much faster than you expect. But as Nick/Dave say
(<http://www.hackerschool.com/about>) getting a job certainly shouldn't be
your only reason for joining.

------
angrycoder
I wonder why more of the larger companies don't just do this themselves.

When I got out of college ~13 years ago, I went to work for a large retail
corp. Their stuff was all mainframe and COBOL. They had a hard time finding
new hires obviously so they had their own internal training program. The
interview process was intense, around 4 hours of face to face interviews
followed by a 3 hour written test (language independent, all logic and flow
charting). If you got accepted, you were brought on and paid a salary for 3
months to go through their mainframe training program. The total cost for them
was around 15k per student, which is far less than what I see the big tech
companies offering as a signing bonus.

~~~
davidbalbert
Totally agree, but don't tell them. We want to do it first ;)

~~~
angrycoder
You can always sell them your process once it works ;)

~~~
bmajz
Microsoft had such a program back in the mid 2000s. It was not heavily
advertised but it basically trained people with math/science backgrounds in
undergrad. You came in and went to class for half the day and then worked on a
product team for half the day over a period of nine months. Just about
everyone who came through (being bright already) was able to make it as a
high-quality engineer on products around the company. Unfortunately, the
program was axed during the Great Recession and hasn't come back.

------
tom_b
So seductive that the focus is on hacking rather than business building.

Would love to hear anecdotes about past batches, how far they progressed, and
maybe even know a little more about how placements have worked out from the
perspective of participants and hiring companies.

Regarding hiring companies - are they looking at the output of participants or
using the Hacker School team as highly trusted referral agents? I know it has
to be both, but am curious how much the project portfolio at the end is
impressing companies.

I guess one way of answering that question might be knowing a little about how
participants did with their project portfolios in finding new gigs that you
guys did not act as referral agents for . . . ?

Regardless, this is a very cool take on the "building better hackers" stories
going on and I hope you guys are wildly successful.

~~~
nicholasjbs
_Would love to hear anecdotes about past batches, how far they progressed, and
maybe even know a little more about how placements have worked out from the
perspective of participants and hiring companies._

We've had two batches so far. The second just ended a few weeks ago, so it's
too early to report from that one, but for the first: We had six students.
Four decided to look for jobs after Hacker School. Of those, one went to
Photoshelter, two went to Venmo, and one went to Tumblr (another has since
started working part-time at Venmo). We keep in close touch with all of them
(they're friends now) and all are quite happy. (We obviously have little data
so far, but my hunch is that was an abnormally high percent of a batch to be
interested in a new job right after Hacker School; I expect it to lower in the
future.)

 _I guess one way of answering that question might be knowing a little about
how participants did with their project portfolios in finding new gigs that
you guys did not act as referral agents for . . . ?_

The guys who ended up at Venmo happened organically, so the portfolios worked
well, I guess :)

We stress building code and putting it on Github because we think it's a
really good way to improve, but it also has the benefit of building up a
portfolio which helps a lot when it comes to getting a job. There are so many
stupid proxies in hiring, and having good code online cuts through a lot of
the bullshit like a knife through butter.

 _Regardless, this is a very cool take on the "building better hackers"
stories going on and I hope you guys are wildly successful._

Thanks!

~~~
kanja
and one went to 10gen :)

------
gruseom
That is the most awesome thing I've heard about in quite a while. What a great
idea.

I love how rapidly the forms of organization are changing around software and
startups. This is almost like a guild.

~~~
davidbalbert
Thanks for the kind words. It means a lot.

~~~
gruseom
What strikes me most is how alive it feels. This is a big deal.

Anything you can do to excite/attract hackers and then supply them to good
companies is so valuable to both sides that of course you deserve to capture
some of that value.

Actually, it's even better. If you do this right, you're creating value that
wasn't there before. I can come to your school as a "nobody" (in market terms)
- no resume, no experience, just energy and talent. And I can work hard and
learn tons and have fun for three months, and probably bond with my classmates
in a way that will last for years, and at the end of that process you can
connect me with good companies who are in great need of people like me. Now
both I _and_ that company are more valuable (in market terms) than we were
before. (Reminds me a little of how YC add value to the startups they invest
in.)

And most of the anachronistic and stupid rituals of hiring can go out the
window, replaced by hard work, talent, and fun.

A chance to get better at one's craft and learn from other hackers is just
about at the top of all our wish lists. Talk about making something people
want! If I weren't busy I'd jump at the chance to do this.

~~~
davidbalbert
This is exactly how we see it, in a lot of ways. We hope that we're creating
value that wasn't there before (I think we are), and we would be very happy
destroying stupid hiring rituals.

It's also the reason that we're not charing for it right now. We think it
could be really big and important. We're going to see if we can get it there
fast while breaking even.

If you weren't busy, we'd love to have you :).

~~~
gruseom
_It's also the reason that we're not charging for it right now._

I wouldn't judge this by familiar models. Who knows but that you could make
more money overall by subsidizing hackers to attend.

The transformative thing is finding a way to amplify/unleash the social,
creative, and market value of hackers, most of which remains locked away right
now. Since it's such a scarce resource and getting scarcer (edit: relative to
demand), the value is obvious.

I'll be cheering for you guys!

~~~
davidbalbert
Thanks!

------
leelin
Congrats! So after Mayor Bloomberg graduates from CodeAcademy in Dec'12
(<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3434509>) he can be part of Hacker
School batch #6! :P

~~~
davidbalbert
We'd be happy to have him.

------
dpritchett
It looks like a great opportunity, but I imagine it'll be a rare hacker who
can find 32 daytime hours per week to do unpaid work. Maybe it's good for a
college-aged hacker taking a semester off, or maybe for a self-employed
contract dev who plans to pay the bills with off-hours contract work.

I'd love to see a bit of clarification about that part in the FAQ.

As a ten year developer I'd love to be able to participate in this sort of
collective though. Maybe coworking + meetups makes a better fit for someone in
my shoes.

~~~
nicholasjbs
We know it's a huge time commitment, but we think it's the best way to really
get better. We've found that you get disproportional results when you switch
from a "nights and weekends" mentality to a "this is the sole thing I'm
focusing on" mentality.

The people who were in the last two batches were a mix of contract
programmers, people who worked part time, and students.

EDIT: We have a couple thoughts here on how to make Hacker School work
financially/logistically: <http://www.hackerschool.com/attending>

~~~
dpritchett
I have no doubt this is a great way to get better. Maybe I need to arrange for
a sabbatical of my own!

~~~
nicholasjbs
We've already had at least two people take formal leaves from their jobs to do
Hacker School :)

------
sausagefeet
I have attended a few sessions of Hacker School, not living in NYC + having a
full time job limited me to only visiting but it was a great experience.
People are very energetic about learning and teaching. I hope it is very
successful.

------
gmichnikov
Could you please expand a little bit on this answer from the FAQ:

"Hacker School is currently only for people who already know how to code."

How well must an applicant know how to code?

~~~
davidbalbert
Just a bit. The basics of control flow, algorithmic thinking, etc. You should
be comfortable writing and running code. Honestly, the most important thing is
how fast you learn and how much you love programming. In previous batches
we've accepted people who've known very little over people who know more
because we think they're more enthusiastic about coding and more likely to do
well.

------
bdickason
I've met one of the founders here, Hacker School is a really great thing for
NYC! Just wish I had a few spare months so I could attend :(

------
davi
This reminds me a lot of Ars Digita's bootcamp
(<http://philip.greenspun.com/teaching/boot-camp>, which I attended, back in
the day. It's up there amongst the more interesting experiences of my life).

Except that instead of being a recruitment mechanism for the host company, it
is an environment to give people skills and match them up with external
companies, and in return get a referral fee.

Really a good idea; I wonder if it is scalable. They will have to figure out a
way to assess coding ability objectively?

~~~
davidbalbert
Today is actually the first time I heard of both the bootcamp and Ars Digita
University (<http://adiuni.org>). I'm going to spend a bunch of time looking
at both of them. Thanks!

~~~
Omni5cience
Not to be the "well actually" guy, but URLs are an okay place to be pedantic,
(I think). I found Ars Digita University at (<http://aduni.org>).

Anyway more SICP material? Sweet. I also had never heard about either. So nice
find.

------
edw519
Wow! This sounds incredible! Exactly the kind of thing that would be perfect
for someone like me. A little background...

I'm one of those rare programming animals with a foot in each world.

I have written over a million lines of code and implemented many fairly
sophisticated applications in over 90 different companies. So I have a great
deal of confidence in my ability to build stuff. But here's the rub: most of
the technologies I know so well are old (some may even say obsolete). So I
have done what any self-respecting programmer would have done: I have taken
upon myself to learn new technologies on my own and implement what I can where
I can.

But there is so much demand for my services in the "old" technologies, it's
hard to throw the switch. After spending all day on a client's project, it's
tough to get enough momentum on my own stuff.

Also, I feel like I can really hold my own in areas in which I'm proficient.
But technologies change so quickly, there are so many important things I feel
weak in. Too weak to use on a client's work yet important enough to use when
building new stuff. Also, I have never had any formal computer science
education; I've learned everything I know in the school of hard knocks.

The idea of spending 3 months full time in the company of like-minded souls
building cool stuff with new technologies and learning together is practically
orgasmic for someone like me. (I know, I'm pathetic.) This would be the
opportunity to "catch up" in all the things I've been wanting to do in an
intense 3 month period. I can already think of a dozen projects I'd like to
try in the class.

A few questions:

\- How hard would it be to maintain a 30 to 40 hour client workload while
going through the program? (And still have the energy to get all I want out of
it.) I already work remotely and pretty much set my own hours. I do not want
to stop my current work because people depend on me and I like the steady
income.

\- Do I sound like the kind of person who would do well in your program or are
you seeking a more junior demographic?

\- How hard would it be to get a reasonable room in NYC while maintaining a
home elsewhere? (February 13 is way too soon for someone like me to relocate.)

\- When will the next (after the Feb 13) session be? (That may be the best
answer to my first 2 questions.)

It sounds like you guys are doing a great thing. Off the top of my head, I can
think of dozens of my contempories that would blossom in a program like this.
Best wishes for great success!

~~~
nicholasjbs
Thanks for the kind words!

 _How hard would it be to maintain a 30 to 40 hour client workload while going
through the program? (And still have the energy to get all I want out of it.)_

I think this would be extremely hard (at least, I know it would be for me).
We've had couple people hold down substantial client work (more on the order
of 20-30 hours a week, I think) while doing Hacker School and make it work
(and still get a ton out of it), but we've also had a couple that tried this
and quickly realized they had to leave the program.

 _How hard would it be to get a reasonable room in NYC while maintaining a
home elsewhere?_

This is perfectly doable logistically. The biggest obstacle is the financial
burden of paying two rents (or rent + mortgage). You can get a room in the
city for ~$600-900/month. NYC has a crazy housing market but there are so many
people here there's always stuff opening up and turning over, so it's easier
to find a sublet for a few months here than, say, in Mountain View (I tried
doing that and it was a mess).

 _When will the next (after the Feb 13) session be? (That may be the best
answer to my first 2 questions.)_

We take about a month off between batches, so it will start in late May or
early June.

Thanks for the best wishes!

~~~
zemo
_We've had couple people hold down substantial client work (more on the order
of 20-30 hours a week, I think)_

I was typically able to get in 20-24 hours a week while in HS batch[1], so it
_is_ possible to do HS and client work at the same time, but it's very
challenging. I came in with two clients but wound up passing one of the
projects off to another developer because it was too much work. The other
client I still work for. Having two clients while in HS was completely
impossible. Having one client while in HS is doable, but it depends on the
quality of the client. The client that I kept never bothered me about trivial
matters, gave me full autonomy over my work, provided the resources I needed
to get the job done, and were just plain cool. I still work for them. If my
description sounds nothing like any of your clients, I wouldn't recommend
doing HS and client work simultaneously.

------
ntkachov
This sounds like just the kind of thing I've been looking for. Would anyone be
willing to comment on whether or not it's worth taking a semester off from
college to do HS?

~~~
happy4crazy
I was in batch[0], and would say yes. If you can swing the time off,
Hackerschool would be an incredible experience. Nick, Dave, and Sonali are
some of the nicest people I've ever met--they were born to do this. They
attract similarly awesome people to the program, so Hackerschool's vibe is as
good as it gets: smart, friendly people doing nothing but help each other
learn.

------
hack_edu
How long until we start seeing meta-meta startups?

Startups/hackers that help startups/hackers that help startups/hackers.

~~~
vertr
Reminiscent of the gold rush?

------
mhartl
This looks awesome, but I'm surprised it's in NYC. What advantages (if any)
does that have over SF/SV?

~~~
davidbalbert
It's where we live :). Maybe in the future we'll do it in SF/SV too, but
building Hacker School takes time so it would be quite some time before that
happened if at all.

------
jvandenbroeck
How is this in relation with uni's? Is it for people that have learned how to
program without doing CS that want some kind of recognition?

Or is it that some startups can't attract CS grads? Or is the CS education
just bad/ not wanted by the startups?

~~~
davidbalbert
In our experience, computer science and programming are two different things.
Being good at one, doesn't necessarily make you good at the other, but they
are certainly complementary (computer scientists will tell you that
programming is a tool to do their studies; programmers will tell you that
computer science is a tool to help them write better code). We have had
students with advanced degrees in CS (M.S., PhD) and students who never
studied it before. All are welcome.

------
phzbOx
"This social pressure keeps everyone focused and accomplishing what they say
they will. It also fights scope creep, because someone in the group will
surely notice when your spell-checker starts turning into an OS." -> I Lol-ed
in public, nice one.

------
SethMurphy
I am one of the lucky Hacker School alumni, and I can't say enough good things
about it. For those of you afraid it is just a recruiting tool, fear not, only
if you want it to be. The word was mentioned only in the beginning and end of
the experience. This is not what the experience is motivated by. It is
motivated by curiosity and learning.

If you are thinking of joining, you might be interested in a blog post I wrote
about my journey to Hacker School and what it meant to me:
<http://sethmurphy.com/my_programming_reboot>

------
camz
How much space will this program require. I advise a bunch of coworking spaces
in NYC so I might be able to convince one of them to help provide a location.

~~~
davidbalbert
30 people, 10am to 8pm, Monday, Tuesday, Friday, Saturday, Feb 13 through May
3. Thanks!

------
Omni5cience
I was in batch[1] and I have to say it was one of the best experiences I've
ever had.

------
ajju
This is fantastic! Unscrupulous training mills run by non-hackers have brought
a bad name to the training industry. Hackruiter is fixing this and helping
both the students and the recruiting companies. Bravo!

~~~
davidbalbert
Thanks for the kind words! Glad you like it.

------
adamnemecek
Are you guys by any chance going to offer the materials used in the course
online?

Edit: I now realize that there might not be any.

~~~
davidbalbert
So far, we have not generated any materials. If we do in the future, we'd
absolutely love to put them online. I'd like to start video taping our guest
speakers who we have from time to time and put those online. Just have to get
our hands on a video camera.

------
cottonseed
Reminds me a little of a smaller scale, less (traditionally) organized version
of ArsDigita University.

------
maukdaddy
Someone needs to do this in Sweden :)

------
zyzzy
The idea sounds great!

Is there any way Hackruiter would expand to maybe a city like Boston?

------
makatiguy
Great idea!

------
ifearthenight
Great to see someone in the US offering free education. Shame it has to be
Angel and not State funded though.

~~~
happypeter
I am doing free education in China, and I fund myself. Right action has its
own reward.

------
brendoncrawford
It's too bad that the term "hacker" has been exploited and redefined into
something that has almost no resemblance to it's true and original meaning.

This Hacker School is essentially a training ground for startup programmers,
focusing on everything from writing code to scheduling and managing
expectations. This is a great idea, but it does not create a true "hacker".

A hacker de-assembles, re-assembles, engineers, and reverse engineers systems,
on their own time, at their own pace, and is not motivated by profits and
deliverables as much as the mere process.

But, I suppose if enough people re-define the word, then it must be.

~~~
nicholasjbs
_This Hacker School is essentially a training ground for startup programmers,
focusing on everything from writing code to scheduling and managing
expectations._

I'm not sure where you got this impression, but this is definitely _not_ what
Hacker School is. We encourage students to work on projects and not "products"
and certainly not startups. We especially encourage code that's written for
other programmers to use (e.g., frameworks, libraries, command line
utilities). We also focus purely on code and there's nothing at Hacker School
about "scheduling or managing expectations" (that confusion might have come
from our use of the word "shipping"? We use that to mean "getting code out and
to a publishable state" because so many people -- ourselves included -- have a
tendency do the first 90% of a project and then not put in the last bit of
effort to put it on Github where others might benefit from it).

 _A hacker de-assembles, re-assembles, engineers, and reverse engineers
systems, on their own time, at their own pace, and is not motivated by profits
and deliverables as much as the mere process._

There are no profits or deliverables (at least in the traditional sense of the
term) at Hacker School. We just build stuff we love and that we think will
help us grow as programmers. For instance, last batch a Hacker Schooler and I
wrote an Apple II emulator in JavaScript
(<https://github.com/nicholasbs/appletoo>), simply because we'd never done it
before. We also pair up and work through SICP, or do problems from K&R, or
study different concurrency models.

~~~
brendoncrawford
As you state on your site, your revenue comes from recruiting programmers for
startups. This fact suggests that you are highly incentivized to train startup
programmers, not hackers.

"hackers" who don't meet deadlines, and don't manage product scope don't make
very good recruits, which would affect your bottom line.

~~~
Omni5cience
While on Hacker School time, it was made clear that startups are not the
focus, and that we should worry more about the challenge of programming than
building "Products".

(I was in batch[1])

