
Shaper Origin: Hand-Held CNC Machine - spking
https://shapertools.com
======
yaw
I was part of the preorder and just finished my first project with it, an MFT
style workbench (3x5). My prior woodworking experience was a single class in
high school. I would likely not have attempted this project without access
this tool.

The software works off of SVG files, which was appealing as this is a format
I'm already accustomed to. They have made a plugin for exporting SVG from
Fusion360 models. The workflow to go from idea to a finished prototype is
pretty quick.

Price for me was competitive, I had been looking at laser cutters which start
at 2x-3x the price of this. Obviously not a direct comparison in capabilities.

Overall, I'm quite happy with it

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gedy
Looks cool, and I guess I'm old and illogical - but I miss the 'old days' when
you could just buy things without teasers, pre-announcements, order windows,
etc.

I doesn't build excitement in my case, more that I forget about it and move
on.

~~~
michaelbuckbee
I feel you, but also having been on the other side of things (worked for a
hardware startup in the AR space), whoo boy is hardware hard.

From the side of the manufacturer, all the things you mentioned are a form of
risk mitigation and demand forecasting. It's likely a fatal, company ending
mistake to build 5x too many in your initial run.

So, while I'm not a huge fan of such activities, I am a HUGE fan of the
devices and creativity they enable as otherwise we just wouldn't see this kind
of stuff.

~~~
gedy
Totally agree, more just commenting the large number of products I probably
would've bought on sight had they been available, but instead are forgotten or
in some old bookmark somewhere due to being unavailable.

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Judgmentality
I tried one of these 2-3 years ago and briefly talked to one of the founders.
It's a really cool tool, and surprisingly fun to use. I was immediately
smitten and asked "how much?" The price he told me then was half the price
they're advertising now, and I still balked. Admittedly I don't know the
market for carpentry, but it seems like a niche product for professionals or
rich hobbyists. That said though, I'd still love to have one.

~~~
mikeash
What price are they advertising now? I can’t find it on the linked page.

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Judgmentality
$2400 is the expected retail price.

[https://www.popularwoodworking.com/cnc/hands-shaper-
origin-e...](https://www.popularwoodworking.com/cnc/hands-shaper-origin-
exclusive-review)

~~~
mikeash
Thanks! Considering what it does, I’m not surprised, but it’s a bit rich for
my blood.

~~~
erric
Seems about on par with Festool options, and looks like they are partners.

~~~
aaronblohowiak
At that price they are competing with options that you don’t have to babysit,
which is a big advantage if you are commercial operator.

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TheRealPomax
Yeah, but they're also operating in the "maker space", where ten people all
pitch in $250 and buy a tool for everyone else to use. That $2400 buys you a
tool that everyone, including kids, can use, as opposed to a real CnC machine
that requires someone to become an expert operator needing to babysit anyone
else who has an idea that requires CnC work.

This tool has zero appeal to commercial operators. But it's _INCREDIBLE_ for
people who just want to make shit at their community center/hacker
space/woodworking group/etc.

~~~
petra
Is this really kid safe ?

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aidenn0
I used a band saw as a kid; this is probably at least as safe.

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ktm5j
My favorite youtube engineer (Ben Krasnow) did a video on this product a few
years ago:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8GFpSCK6Jk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8GFpSCK6Jk)

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happertiger
I own one. It comes with autodesk 360 for a year. Truth be told, this thing is
solid as a tank and incredibly well built. Makes inlays a breeze and does a
faultless job at basic tasks.

The best part is that all the capabilities are in a small box so you don’t
need a room to store it and it’s portable.

It can take a long time to do larger projects and you can’t fire it up and
forget it, but it’s an exceptionally good product.

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21
Brilliant idea, outsource to the human the low-precision positioning task and
get rid of the workpiece fixtures for massive price reduction.

Now someone needs to build the equivalent for 3-5 axis, maybe with a free
movable support arm since it might be too heavy to hold just with hands.

~~~
LeifCarrotson
Honestly,I wonder if this concept isn't better suited for welding robots and
plasma cutters. It seems ideally suited for those tools. You need precise
control of a tool position, and the reason,they're not done by hand more right
now is that access to the workpiece and clamping it in place are a huge pain.

A big problem with handheld CNC is that cutting many materials you'd want to
cut requires precise control of your speed, and also requires rather large
amounts of force and rigidity. CNC in wood or plastic is pretty easy, but
steel is hugely more difficult. There's a reason traditional mills are made
with thousands of pounds of cast steel, and it's not to make it hard for
hobbyists to enter,

I wonder if a 3-5 axis might be better done by using servo-actuated brakes to
constrain your motion to a desired direction and speed. Though I remain
skeptical that the problem with CNC is the expense of long axes. You pay for
the power, not length - a 30" ballscrew actuator costs maybe 2x as much as a
3".

~~~
21
You seem to know way more about the fields so I defer, but I think there is a
market for just cutting wood, plastic or soft metals like aluminum. A low cost
machine obviously will have a bunch of limitations.

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philipov
2400$ isn't exactly low-cost.

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icegreentea2
It's definitely not cheap, but its in the ball park for CNC wood routers
(obviously you can find cheaper stuff, especially if second hand).

There's value to some hobby users in that it looks like you get to save on
bench space. For some users that might be the difference between having and
not having a CNC wood router.

~~~
matte_black
Why wouldn’t a $1400 dollar shapeoko or x-carve be better than this?

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opencl
This doesn't take up an enormous amount of shop space, can be used on
arbitrarily large workpieces, and probably requires far less calibration and
maintenance work. I have a 2' x 2' CNC router and can easily think of usecases
this would be better for. A 4' x 8' CNC router is sure as hell not going to be
cheaper than this thing.

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froindt
I wonder how accurately it would work on a 4' x 8' piece. If I cut some curvy
shape near the edge of the piece and followed the dashed line perfectly, would
I end up exactly back where I started or would I miss by half an inch?

~~~
hexane360
It uses strips of QR codes to position itself on the workpiece. It's an
absolute measurement not a relative one, so there's no drift.

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patosai
Got to play with one of these for a few hours 2-3 years ago, back then it was
pretty easy to make a shape and upload it to the device. The cuts it made on
plywood were extremely clean and it was quite fun to use! Hooked up a vacuum
to it and it sucked up a lot of the wood dust, so that wasn't too much of a
problem.

Only problem was I had to concentrate when moving the device around on the
wood since otherwise it would move outside the allowable range and I'd have to
reset it.

I'd imagine that this would be for one-off products since otherwise a true CNC
machine would save more time.

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MisterTea
CNC is a misnomer. This is more like GPS for a router. Computer assisted
machining would be more appropriate though that acronym would collide with
CAM, computer aided manufacturing.

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michaelt
It doesn't just show you the tool's position relative to the workpiece, it
also has motors that correct the position of the cutting bit.

Sounds pretty CNC to me.

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arghwhat
And IIRC (saw this thing years ago), it quickly retracts the bit and tells you
that you're an idiot if you move out of range.

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derekja
We got one for our makerspace and it is a very solid tool. Amazing for
parquet.

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eggy
I bought an $8000 4'x8' router table back in 2003 and built a a bunch of
stich-and-glue kayaks with it. I could cut a table of parts while eating lunch
from one sheet of marine plywood. With this I may save space, but I have to be
present to cut all of those parts without tiring. I doubt hand control of the
shaper can beat the accuracy. It's a neat, high-priced toy for makers (I'm
one), but if you are going to make more than a few things regularly, go with a
router table. I also made 3D carvings or portraits by writing a python script
in Blender3D for the geometry, and there's no way you could do that by hand. I
really like the Shaper, and I think it will sell, but it is a niche product.
It also reminded me of the time I used a projector to, project cut-out
templates on ply because I didn't need accuracy, and when I did we would plot
out templates to transfer to the plywood, and then cut with a hand router by
eye.

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Mizza
I've been looking at products in this space myself lately, and stumbled upon
the Maslow, which has similar, though not identical functionality, but is a
DIY product an order of magnitude cheap than this (though obviously far less
polished and producty): [http://www.maslowcnc.com/](http://www.maslowcnc.com/)

~~~
debatem1
I really want to like the Maslow, but I admit I'm losing patience with it.
After a multi-month waiting period to get it I found that they hadn't shipped
me all the parts. After a chat with their co-founder (who was very nice) I
assumed all was taken care of, but it's been something like two weeks since
then and still no parts. In the time it's taken just to get the Maslow kit I
could easily have designed and built my own.

Very disappointing. Like I say, I want to like and support what seems to be a
really nice company. I just don't have a product yet.

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zootam
would be really cool if someone tried to DIY this using some lighthouse/vive
tracking instead of the camera and markers.

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markrages
It's confusing to call this a "shaper," when it is not the machine tool. (A
shaper is a kind of linear lathe.)

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tejtm
this battle was lost generations ago. Shapers were "mechanical apprentices"
wielding chisels replaced by low speed specialized cutter horizontal milling
machines (borrowed from circular saws from timber mills) replaced with high
speed vertical milling machines with fewer smaller diameter cutters and fancy
fixtures, replaced by CNC mills.

Somewhere in there, probably along with vertical mills, beefy router tables
adopted the name "Shaper" as it was not being used enough by the mechanical
apprentices to say so any more.

But I love watching the hypnotic motions of a metal shaper more than I will
ever like even hearing a wood shaper, in another room ... while wearing
earmuffs

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avanderhoorn
My biggest problem is not being able to get sharp corners. Thats not a problem
with Shaper Origin per se, but more with CNC based routers (note the chess
board on their homepage, it doesn't have squares with 90 deg corners). If
something like Shaper Origin supported being able to do this, I'd buy it in a
heartbeat.

~~~
Hasz
Sharp internal corners are hard period. CNC milling machines have the same
issue -- the usual way to to just use a smaller end mill.

You either need some type of punch or an (actual) shaper.

~~~
diggernet
That's what square hole drill bits are for.

~~~
Doxin
Those round the corners too I'm afraid.

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nanomonkey
At first glance it looked like the motion control was gamified with a driving
game. Part of me wishes that was the case, the other part of is horrified of
the thought of carpenters messing around with cloud enabled gameboys on their
tools.

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app4soft
> Shaper Origin: Hand-Held CNC Machine

As it hand-held machine, then it's NOT a CNC[0] by design...

> Computer numerical control (CNC) is the automation of machine tools by means
> of computers executing pre-programmed sequences of machine control commands.
> This is in contrast to machines that are manually controlled by hand wheels
> or levers, or mechanically automated by cams alone.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_control](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_control)

~~~
westoncb
It's still numerically controlled. 'Hand-held' just refers to its size, not
how it's operated.

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xellisx
All the pictures I'm seeing are showing it being controlled by hand.

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lincolnq
Yeah I was confused by this also. It is cutting a precise vector shape by
making small adjustments to compensate for hand shake and such. The "circle"
you can see it drawing on screen is the amount of error it can tolerate before
it will start cutting in the wrong place.

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gtvwill
Similar packaging and probably marketing to fein gear.... Fancy case and some
pretty looking tools but tbh I don't see that piece of equipment ever making
it into the workshop and it barely looks like it would survive a week on-site
too. 2500 dollary doos is pretty damned expensive for what looks to be a
damned fragile bit of gear with very little use.

Like the biggest problem to making cuts with a router is that it grabs and
pulls and goes off direction. Having a little map of where your "supposed to
go" isn't going to prevent this.. So I see this thing doing nothing to make
your job's/cuts more accurate. Yes it maps it for you...but so does a
projector and a pencil and then your not limited to the size or shape of the
router...just the skill of the operator.

If it was priced say...450 or maaaaaaaaaaaaybe 750 aud? It would possibly get
a look in? I get a makita for like 200 bucks that will take a thrashing on
site and a dewalt for like 600 if you want a few extra ponies under the
bonnet. But christ...2500 dollary doos. I can buy half a chippies work truck
for that! In the famed words of the castle "tell em' he's dreamin!"

~~~
linsomniac
I'm not sure you understand what this is. It's not a router, it's a handheld
4'x8' CNC. If Makita has a 4x8 CNC for 200 bucks, it's news to me. :-)

It doesn't have "a little map of where you're supposed to go", it has a
display showing _where it is going to go_. Now, I don't drive my router every
day (a Bosch, FYI), so I'll admit I'm not a skilled operator. But my ability
to follow a pencil line with a router is iffy at best.

You are right that the biggest problem to making cuts with a router is it
grabbing and going off path. That isn't so much a problem with a CNC. I don't
know how the Shaper, being hand-held rather than a mounted chassis, prevents
kicking out like that. I don't know if it stops cutting when you move the
body, or is fast enough to move the tool when you are repositioning the body
and the tool grabs.

The Shaper's goal is that an unskilled operator can do accurate and repeatable
cuts.

That said, I haven't used the Shaper. I've watched some folks over the years
use them on YouTube, and I've half wished I'd bought the older model when they
had it for pre-order for $1,500.

But the downside of these tools is that you can't just whip them out and start
making chips, you've got to have CAD and CAM experience and generate the
gcode. I've done a little with 3D printers, and SketchUp, and custom gcode.
But I'm far from being able to bang out a set of shapes for a one-off project.
I'd have to be making a few or more of something before I even considered it.

The Shaper looks insanely cool, and I wish our Maker Space had one, but I also
don't have an immediate need for one either. I _CAN_ tell you that I've
recently been wishing our 4x8 CNC took up a lot less floor space, it's bigger
than either of our workbenches but can't be used as a work surface (policy
decision).

~~~
janekm
Actually it's a little of both. You do have to guide it by hand according to
the map it shows, however it will correct small deviations from the path
allowing relatively accurate cuts.

It has two huge downsides over a regular router: you have to place marker tape
(quite expensive) all over the workpiece, and it will stop working once the
marker tape is cut. Also, you have to keep guiding it throughout the process
so you don't get the time benefit (multitasking) of a regular CNC router.

I don't think it's a really good choice for a makerspace actually compared to
a regular router table, unless there is a serious lack of space.

~~~
otherwiseguy
It does not stop working when the tape is cut, only when there isn't enough
visible tape. Also, you can put tape on a place outside where you are cutting
and reuse it. The camera isn't pointing down where it is cutting. Also, it'll
correct for fairly large deviations. It is more for one-off things as opposed
to madd producing something like standard CNC router. Limitless size is nice,
I am unlikely to buy a 4'x8' CNC router for my garage.

~~~
janekm
Indeed, it makes more sense at home rather than in a makerspace. But you'd be
very unlikely to make the money back compared to sending it out to a
professional shop. It could be perfect for interior designers and similar jobs
where one-off pieces have to be cut on the spot and cost isn't a big issue.

The issue about the cut tape was brought up in the "Tested" review, and you
may not always be able to put tape outside your work area if you are trying to
use your whole workpiece.

