
Ask HN: Getting back to the tech industry after a three-year break - spiked55
Hi HN,<p>This is going to be long, but please stick with me here..<p>My wife came to the US to do her MS in EE and graduated in 2011. After graduating, she started working at a company in the Bay Area, which wasn’t e-verified at the time, meaning that she could only work for 1 year on her student visa using OPT. To add to that, they botched her H-1B application, resulting in her employment with them terminating when OPT ended, which was by the end of 2012.<p>As a result, she was forced to go back to being a student for a year or so, after which we got married and she came back to the US on an H-4 visa. Thanks to the new H-4 EAD rule that was passed in 2015, she was able to obtain an EAD in September via my H-1B visa.<p>Now, she is legally allowed to work for any employer, but she just hasn’t been able to get any calls from any company that she’s applied to so far (both big companies and startups). All in all, she’s probably applied to 100+ companies over the last 6 months, but she hasn’t received a single call back.<p>Though she has an EE background through her MS, her work experience was in C++ and Matlab development, and she’s focused on sharpening her Java and Python development skills over the past year or two. She’s mainly been applying to Java and&#x2F;or Python development positions, or just SW Developer positions in general.<p>Recently, there was an initiative by Braintree (http:&#x2F;&#x2F;hire.jobvite.com&#x2F;CompanyJobs&#x2F;Careers.aspx?nl=1&amp;k=Job&amp;j=owj61fwG&amp;s=PPpage) that fit her profile to a T, but she received a reject from them as well.<p>At this point, we’re willing to try anything. Do you have any clues about why it is this hard to find a job? Is it the 3 year break? Her MS is from a decent school, she’s done several research projects and has a year of experience in the industry.. She also has a profile at CodeEval, and plans to continue solving problems there and keep coding every day.<p>Any advice and&#x2F;or help will be sincerely appreciated.
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patio11
_All in all, she’s probably applied to 100+ companies over the last 6 months,
but she hasn’t received a single call back._

Your wife should consider sending in an unsolicited resume to be a no-op and,
instead, start meeting people who either a) are hiring managers or b) can
refer her to hiring managers.

Her goal in achieving connection with the hiring manager is to secure a coffee
date or other informal conversation. Her goal for this conversation is
qualifying the company, impressing the hiring manager, and convincing the
hiring manager to either invite her formal application or respond positively
when she suggests moving to a formal application.

This is one of the huge knowledge gaps in the engineering community regarding
getting jobs. Unsolicited applications are not how most people get hired. This
is particularly true of smaller employers.

~~~
akulbe
Did you write your Twitter posts before, or after, this comment? :)

You say this so succinctly there. I used to think it was all about the resume.
It's actually one of the least effective ways to apply for work.

One other thing to consider doing... offer to work for free (or reduced pay,
where laws prohibit free work) for a short period of time. It lets them see
what you can do, and removes much of the risk.

------
muzani
Just my statistics:

I don't have a valid working visa in the US and have been applying almost
exclusively to American companies.

My "interview" rate is 10%. 100% if it's with people I know, even if I'm
completely unqualified.

My "rejection" rate is around 50%, within 2 weeks. I assume the rest won't say
anything if they reject.

General job sites (the ones where you can also apply to be a carpenter, etc)
are a waste of time. They probably get so many resumes they end up tossing
half of them.

Stack Overflow Careers gave me an awesome ~30% of interviews. As in I applied
6 jobs and 2 interviewed. Both of them were jobs I didn't fully qualify for.

Generally, direct emails gave me a 100% (5/5) response rate. An email, like
careers@company.com, not a form. Email lets me mention in subject line that I
used to have a startup, so I stood out. Most of them rejected on lack of visa
though.

I do spend ~10 minutes per cover letter. I really dig deep, like an investor
would. I convince myself that I'm doing the company a favor by joining before
writing the letter.

In the end, you just have to convince one company. If you have a lead,
immediately latch to it... do research on the company, the interviewer, and
write questions.

There's a certain bar you have to cross to convince people to hire. It's
better to optimize for a few companies than to try to reach out to as many as
possible. If you feel unworthy, then optimize for the lower tier companies who
have lower standards.

~~~
patio11
_If you feel unworthy_

Don't. Feel. Unworthy. Any person capable of programming their way out of a
paper bag is someone every hiring manager in the Bay Area urgently wants to
meet right now. If you're hirable at their firm that's fantastic, if not
they'll chalk it up to "I now know one more engineer who I can keep tabs on
over the course of the next few years and potentially place in the future."

------
nimah
Here are my strategy that I use for applying and getting hired:

1\. Do not apply 100+ companies. Select max 3-5 of them. And research them.
Get to know people working there. What are their problems? What tools are they
using? What meetups can I meet them? Are they active on some online community?
Get in touch with people there. Just talk and show interest in them. It always
good to know the company before applying and dropping it, if it's not a great
match you can drop it. (Just like dating, get to know them before you marry
them.)

2\. Fine-tune that resume. I didn't see your wife resume but I am sure it
could be improved. Here are some very fine tips :
[http://www.slideshare.net/perlcareers/how-to-write-a-
develop...](http://www.slideshare.net/perlcareers/how-to-write-a-developer-
cvrsum-that-will-get-you-hired)

3\. Build some portfolio. Anything is fine. Really. Just showcase that she
understands/can write code. She can join on some open source community or just
build something on her own. Better the first one, because she can be mentored
and demonstrate teamwork.

4\. Blog about it, the learning experience. This about as much about
showcasing work as communication. If she can communicate effectively that
counts as much as programming. (Actually more if she really great
communicator.) Don't be shy on this.

5\. Repeat from step one.

And one last thing. It is not just about what your wife wants, please be
considerate about the company needs too. I know a lot of company that would be
good for me, but for the company I would be just a drag. That's how it is.

------
RikNieu
Does she have a github account with some examples of personal projects she
works on? Does she go to networking events or meetups to expand her
professional network, or could she maybe contact previous colleagues to ask
for tips on upcoming openings?

I'm not in the states, so I don't know what the employment environment is like
on the ground, but from what I know in general getting a job depends on who
you know and what others know about you. In other words; getting employed via
the traditional vanilla job application route is going to be tough. Especially
for immigrants.

She needs to go out and meet people, work her personal network, and have some
cool and interesting projects to hook people's attention with.

------
curun1r
If you're in the Bay Area, you might try meet-ups. There's an quite a few of
them in SF [1] and most of them are hosted by companies trying to hire or are
explicitly hiring events [2]. Even if the host isn't hiring, you'll find
companies that are hiring by talking to people. Most will either be hiring
managers or people willing to receive a referral bonus. Worst case scenario,
it's free food and some interesting talks about technical subjects.

Also, make sure your online reputation looks good. LinkedIn (make sure to
enumerate skills) and Github are probably the two that get me the most
recruiter touches.

Best of luck!

[1]
[http://www.meetup.com/find/events/?allMeetups=false&keywords...](http://www.meetup.com/find/events/?allMeetups=false&keywords=java&radius=5&userFreeform=San+Francisco%2C+CA&mcId=z94101&mcName=San+Francisco%2C+CA)
[2]
[http://www.meetup.com/software/events/224734607/](http://www.meetup.com/software/events/224734607/)

~~~
JSeymourATL
> If you're in the Bay Area, you might try meet-ups.

Networking is solid advice! It's also hard to do and time consuming. Yet it
often yields the best results. In addition to meetups- look for applicable
conferences, workshops, trade events, etc...

It's true that most resumes (especially unsolicited ones) are completely
ignored these days. Here's a good read with unconventional advice on why
people buy ( this applies to hiring people) >
[http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/75890.Little_Red_Book_of_...](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/75890.Little_Red_Book_of_Selling)

------
spiked55
Folks, thanks a lot for all your comments. Let me try to respond to some
questions that were raised:

She has a LinkedIn profile, with relevant skills highlighted.

She is not active on Github yet - that will be her focus now. She was focusing
on sites like HackerRank and CodeEval so far.

If she finishes any projects, we will definitely post it to HN for feedback.

We are trying to find more “back to work” sort of programs - a lot of banks
seem to have them, but the cutoff date for applications seemed to be the end
of last year.

We do have friends working in the industry, but most are at large companies
where it’s hard to bypass HR and go to the team required, or companies where
hiring is currently frozen, and so on..

We are going to try to find Hiring Managers to talk to or have a coffee with -
if any of you guys are looking to hire an highly competent Python/Java
programmer down on her luck, or would just like to talk, she’d love to talk to
you over coffee anywhere in the Bay Area. Please send me an email at
(username) at gmail if you'd like to talk.

It’s great to see the support and advice from everyone here. Really, thank
you.

~~~
patio11
_highly competent Python /Java programmer down on her luck_

As a sibling poster has said, never ever ever ever talk like this. In
particular, don't talk like this in 2016 in the Bay Area, which is
approximately the best time and place to ever be a developer. Your wife should
present herself as a confident professional with substantial programming
skills who is looking for a career change into software development.

n.b. That transition is not as smooth as changing between dev jobs, but
practically speaking after she's gotten one software development position
under her belt this conversation gets very, very easy in the future.

In the current environment clueful employers should be foaming-at-the-mouth
rabidly enthusiastic to make your wife's acquaintance. Coding bootcamp
graduates with minimal technical background, ~12 weeks of Rails training, and
no related professional experience are hireable in Bay Area right now.

------
jzwinck
It seems like her H-4 EAD status might give some employers pause. First it is
tied to your H-1B if I understand correctly, so if your status changes she
could become unable to work. Not to mention if you decide to move to another
country. Consider that her explicit status is that of a dependent, which gives
a potential employer the signal that she is a "trailing spouse" meaning for
her to stay with the company she not only needs to like her job and be good at
it, but you need to do the same. Yet they can't interview you.

H-1B is known to be a sort of lever that employers can use to keep you at a
job. She seems to present just the opposite, yet with qualifications which are
a dollar a dozen.

I apologize for being blunt, but it appears to be an atypical, disadvantageous
situation. You might do well to embrace it and aim for some contract work in
the near term--none of the above will be a negative then.

~~~
s_r_n
Curious what you mean by "a dollar a dozen?" I thought that the demand for
developers in SV was high right now, and a master's in EE with coding
experience would also be in high demand.

It seems like the reason she's not getting phone calls is more because she
doesn't have a portfolio, not that her skills are so common that they're
negligible.

~~~
jzwinck
A foreigner with MS from a US school but prior from a foreign school which as
far as we know isn't a famous heavy hitter like Physics in Moscow. Minimal
work experience. I said dollar a dozen after some consideration. There is some
substance there but it simply isn't standing out relative to a thousand other
candidates. More work experience will help, hence the contract suggestion.

------
AlexMuir
My first filter on recruiting now is: "Has this person built anything I can
see?"

A website, an app, a repo on Github. If the answer to that question is 'No'
then my assumption is either a) this person isn't interested in the work, or
b) they don't know how to code in the real world and I'll be paying them to
learn.

I'm constantly amazed at the number of people applying for dev positions who
claim years of experience and have absolutely nothing tangible to point out.

I run a small operation so I can't comment on big firms.

TLDR: Build something recruiters can see, and preferably use. It'll put you
instantly in the top 10% of applicants.

~~~
toomanybeersies
I'm not sure why whether I do work for free and in my spare time is a good
gauge of programmer ability or that they're a desirable hire.

You wouldn't judge a mechanical engineer by whether they've built a car in
their spare time, or an accountant by whether they spend their spare time
doing accounting.

Some of us have lives outside of work, and like to spend our spare time away
from a computer. I spend 9 hours a day in front of a computer at work, plus
probably an hour outside of work doing chores. That's plenty for me. In my
weekends, I like to actually get outside and do something away from a
computer.

Also, depending on what you do, there's often not a lot that you could do open
source. If you're an embedded systems developer for instance (like OP's wife,
who is an EE), there's not a whole lot you can put up on Github.

~~~
GoToRO
I was job hunting recently and I can confirm this. Work as a developer at a
previous company is better than work in the open (side project) and work in
the open is better than work you can't show, and some experience is better
than no experience (but having raw intelligence, willingness to learn,
enthusiasm).

Then, even if the work is in the open you have to sell it to them. At one
interview I didn't feel very well so I couldn't do this. But the website was
on their laptop and they could have try to use it a bit. Instead they relied
on questions.

Then you have the not-so-smart but with experience developer that never
changed jobs and so they are now team lead etc. They ask you "how long will it
take you to learn X". You say "2 months". Their reaction is "this guy is
bullshiting me, I've spent 2 years learning this thing, how could anybody else
learn it faster?"

Then there are the guys asking question google could answer for you. But
because you don't know the answer they don't give you "the points".

After all this, they turn around and complain about how hard it is to find
talent.

I'm from Eastern Europe.

~~~
AlexMuir
If you're in Hungary and know ruby and/or JS then give me a shout!

~~~
GoToRO
Thanks, I appreciate it! I'm from Romania and I did get a job. Not the one I
really, really wanted but the one that came after a few interviews when my
interviewing skill got better.

------
CyberFonic
Job hunting can be very difficult. A lot depends on the types of companies and
positions she is applying for.

It is easier to get a job with the skills and experience you already have and
then try to migrate to newer skills. So maybe going for Java & Python jobs
without relevant experience is an issue.

Whilst education is important experience is far more pertinent in hiring. As
is the personality factors revealed during interviews or even in the covering
letters. 100+ applications suggests that there are issues. The trick is to
find out where they might be. Getting some professional advice might be
necessary.

------
a-saleh
Do you have friends that work for companies she would like to work at? I.e. at
place where I work we have incentives for seeking out new coleagues. The best
thing about this, that when your friend tells his manager something like "You
know how we have rack open for 4 months? I think I know a person." you usually
bypass the HR guy skimming through 100 aplications and maybe thinking "C++ &
Matlab? Who needs that?" or something like that.

If you have no friends that would help you with this, I would suggest going to
local conferences and talking to speakers. On local linux group meeting, I had
a conversation that literary went

me: "Hey, awesome presentation, do you think I could get your slides?"

speaker: "I don't think I want to hang them over, I might have divulged too
much about our company internals so I don't really want to have it on the
internet."

me: "That is a pity, good I was taking notes :-)"

speaker: "Well, if you liked it, you might want to work for us, we have a
junior position open."

(Disclaimer, I was 22, still doing my masters at the time, your conversation
might be different)

------
klunger
Create a LinkedIn profile, with links to any projects she may have done. Use
the right keywords. Recruiters use this to find and contact people with
specific skills.

Maybe also take a 2-3 sentences to explain the gap, with a positive spin. "For
a brief period, I was unable to work, due to visa issues. I therefore spent my
time on the following independent projects: ... The visa issues have resolved
and I am now actively looking for work in ... ." Or something.

------
nicholas73
Does she have any projects to post here?

I also have an MSEE and looked for coding jobs. I only had one finished
website* but it was good enough to get some responses and a few interviews.

* [http://sudokuisland.com](http://sudokuisland.com)

------
mhsenkow
I can't find the specific posting, but IBM has some jobs that are being
labeled "back to workforce" in the data scientist/analytics area. May be worth
looking into?

