
Don't be a jerk - ColinWright
Recently someone asked a question here on HN.  I answered, and while it didn&#x27;t take long, it did take a moment or two of my time.  Freely given.<p>Then the question was deleted. No thanks, no acknowledgement, no reply.  Just summarily deleted.<p>In the grander scheme of things it&#x27;s small fry, but it irritated me.  They probably don&#x27;t care.  After all, who am I to them?  But still, it rankled a bit.<p>People - don&#x27;t be a jerk.  If you ask a question and someone answers, say thank you.  They&#x27;ve taken the time, does it cost you too much to be polite?<p>Or am I just completely out of touch with reality?
======
bdcravens
I know I've had times when the answer/response made me look dumb, arrogant,
etc, and I've been tempted to delete my comment. In those cases, it wouldn't
have been the jerk thing to do, but the cowardly thing to do: if you say, own
it, regardless of how it makes you look.

~~~
danielweber
Mistakes are how we learn! Some of my best learning moments have been giving a
wrong answer and then other people point out I'm wrong. (NB: it's completely
possible for people to be polite when pointing out someone else is wrong.)

OTOH, it takes a certain confidence to let your mistakes hang out in public.
There is this feeling that everyone on HN is constantly judging all other
people so we need to "look smart." When I was younger I tried to hide mistakes
to look smarter. It's a bad habit in general.

As a community I think we should encourage some kinds of mistakes.

~~~
lotharbot
When my wife was learning piano, her teacher used to tell her "if you're going
to make a mistake, make it LOUD so we can hear it and correct it."

Words to live by.

------
S_A_P
There always seems to be a touch of nostalgia for the good old days when
situations like this come up. People undoubtedly yearn for the time when
Hacker News was smaller and more close knit community. Ive been a member here
for about 3 and a half years. I suppose that in that time, some of the quality
has declined, but I really cant even say for sure that is the case. I think I
have learned a lot here, and because of that I may perceive certain topics and
discussions here not as stimulating as I did back when I joined.

As for downvotes, I reserve that for obvious trolling and overly snarky
comments that just seem to be aimed at stirring the pot. I have noticed that
some genuinely funny comments or puns based on the discussion get downvoted,
which I disagree with. It may not add to the intellectual value, but I enjoy a
good laugh as much as I enjoy learning.

I would agree with some of the sentiments here that the person probably
deleted their question out of fear that they would "look dumb". I think
experience has taught me that while Im not the smartest person out there, when
something doesnt make sense to me, there is usually someone else that doesnt
get it either. Ive also learned that people that react poorly to "stupid
questions" are probably feeling defensive of their own knowledge/incompetence.

Anyway, I agree Colin, there is basic courtesy that if you are asking for
help, it should be acknowledged and thanked when its provided. Nobody knows
everything, and asking for help isnt a bad thing. So OWN your questions
folks!!!

~~~
ascendantlogic
Small communities become insular festivals of group-think. Large communities
become whitewashed noise full of trolls. There doesn't seem to be a way to
"win".

~~~
Gormo
There's always a healthy middle ground: form a community with healthy cultural
norms in matters of politeness, courtesy, intellectual rigor - all elements of
form - while encouraging the greatest possible diversity of substance. Make it
clear to people that be adhering to the norms of form, they'll be a welcomed
member of the community, without being censured for the actual substance of
their arguments, but merely argued against politely by those who disagree.
(Sure, there are people who take any counter-argument as a personal insult,
but that's just one of the things we need strong cultural norms against.)

I suppose it's a challenge to maintain this sort of pattern as a community
scales, which is why sites like HN, Reddit, StackExchange, etc. all try to
incorporate incentives and constraints into the mechanics of discussion to
attempt to reinforce certain styles of participation, with varying success. In
this situation, a simple mechanic to prevent people from doing what OP is
complaining about would be to prevent comments from being deleted once they've
been replied to.

It bugs me when I see long streams of deleted comments on Reddit, too - it'd
be an interesting experiment to treat posts and comments in a discussion forum
like wiki pages - freely editable at any time by the poster, but with the full
edit history always available to see.

------
jedanbik
I don't think there should be a downvote option.

There should be an option for upvoting, and an option for flagging offensive
content/content that is against the HN community guidelines.

As it stands, there is no visual emphasis on high quality comments. There is a
visual emphasis on low quality comments. Why is that? Apologies in advance if
I am making an ignorant statement.

~~~
rokhayakebe
J, I cannot express how much I agree with you. The base logic in downvoting is
so flawed it baffles me. How can you take away something from someone if you
did not give it to them in the first place. Downvoting, especially without
commenting, is exactly what the First Amendment was established for.

~~~
DanBC
Jesus fucking christ the first amendment has nothing to do with downvotes on
HN.

I would much rather have people downvoting comments they hate than have to
read through tiresome boring arguments about stuff hat has been endlessly
argued about in the past.

~~~
rokhayakebe
Your perspective is narrow, but I respect your freedom to have an opinion and
express. If you cannot see the relation between downvotes and the first
amendment then I can simply disagree with you, but not downvote you for how
you see things.

------
stevewilhelm
Life's too short; do things for your own edification and satisfaction, not for
the praise or recognition of others.

~~~
GhotiFish
but praise and recognition are satisfying!

------
dustingetz
i think you're out of touch. HN is valuable because experts sometimes post
things here that you can't get elsewhere. Try to post comments that are
valuable to everybody and further the discussion. Comments like "Thanks", and
responses from non-experts, contribute to the discussion derailing. All it
takes is one non-expert to make an incorrect side remark and the discussion
risks derailing into a flame fest.

Here is an example excellent, useful discussion with comments from experts:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8143905](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8143905)

Here is an example of a not useful discussion with comments from non-experts:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8133835](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8133835)

This post falls into the latter category which is probably why it just got
nuked off the front page.

------
free2rhyme214
In my experience I've learned you can't control other people so telling them
not to be a jerk would rarely cause them to change their behavior in the
future.

You can only control your reaction to them.

The way I look at it, you don't have enough time to waste caring about how
someone treats you bad or annoys you because there's more important things to
do Now that need to get Done.

------
peterwwillis
Maybe they didn't like your answer. Maybe they didn't like their own question,
which is why they deleted it. Maybe they'll upvote you instead of saying
thanks. Maybe they aren't around to give a thanks reply or forget about it. Or
maybe they just don't care.

You're not completely out of touch, but it's unfair to put conditions on your
answers. I recommend letting your kind deeds be their own reward and get on
with your day.

------
m0nty
I took the time to email someone about a specific problem and didn't hear back
- how long does it take to hit reply and type "Thx"? The effects are
corrosive: why should I bother to reply _next time_?

~~~
blowski
I will confess to being someone that often forgets to say thanks. My thought
process runs something like "Gosh, that was really helpful, I should say
thankyou. But thankyou isn't enough, I should think of a better way of saying
thankyou." Then I forget to say anything at all for some time, and then I feel
awkward because I left it so long to say thankyou.

That's not an excuse. It's a total failure that I forget to say thank you
properly whenever it's deserved (and even when it's not). It's something I am
working hard to fix, but I still frequently mess up.

~~~
HarshaThota
I have this issue too but more so because I feel like I am just adding to the
noise when I don't have anything more substantial to say other than Thank You.
"People are already overloaded with the amount of emails they get, do I need
to it?" is how I've looked at it but perhaps but that's not the best approach.

~~~
blowski
This is true as well. I don't really like receiving emails that just say
'Thank you', and I'm never sure whether other people do or not. Some
relatively high-profile and busy people have said to me in the past "Did you
get the thing I sent? You didn't say thanks." so it's definitely a personal
thing.

------
Consultant32452
Maybe I'm doing something wrong but HN doesn't notify me when someone responds
or something like other communication platforms do. If and when someone
responds to a question on here I assume they are not ever going to check it
again. I know I almost never do. The only exception is if there's sort of a
conversation going on with responses every few minutes. Once it's been a few
hours, or god forbid the next day, I'm highly unlikely to go back.

Also, if it's a 1on1 discussion with someone via e-mail, skype, or some form
of private message, I'll almost always say thank you. But if I put a question
up on an open forum and one or more persons happen to respond I tend not to
say thanks. I dunno why, it just doesn't seem to be common internet etiquette
to do so. A quick google search on a couple big name technical help question
sites shows that it's not very common for people to say thanks for open ended
questions to the community.

~~~
JshWright
Click the 'threads' link at the top once in a while. It adds a little latency,
but I kind of appreciate the fact that it slows down the conversation a bit...

~~~
ColinWright
Or use [http://hnnotify.com](http://hnnotify.com)

------
jonalmeida
I find the same problem here as in SO. People like downvoting for what ever
reason, but there's never any context as to why. If you feel a comment should
be downvoted, go ahead, but provide a comment as well so the author knows why
it was so. How are you supposed to be better yourself otherwise?

~~~
pavlov
That's a good point. Actually, it might work on HN if each downvote required
an explanation.

When you click the down arrow, it wouldn't apply immediately, but would first
show you a text box for explaining the downvote (this would be just like the
"Add Comment" page).

The explanation would not be publicly displayed anywhere, but would be
accessible to moderators. This could be an effective filter against frivolous
downvotes.

------
jgrahamc
I wrote about this a long time ago: [http://blog.jgc.org/2010/10/power-of-
gratitude.html](http://blog.jgc.org/2010/10/power-of-gratitude.html)

------
macguyver
Totally agreed. I think the biggest issue with the Gen XYZ (I am part of X) is
that we as a whole (a big generalization, of course there are exceptions) tend
to be too self-centered. We are always concerned with our goals, our
aspirations, and we don't think about, care for, or appreciate others nearly
enough.

Our parents' generations (baby boomers) had responsibilities that involved
caring for siblings, raising children, tending aging parents, and they often
put themselves LAST. Not to say that it's better, but after talking to friends
my age who have started families, I think it really sheds light into why so
many young people are lost, confused, and unfocused. People are wandering
around wondering what their purpose is, why they're unhappy, this and that,
when they just have to open their eyes to see how blessed they are, how good
they have it.

I think at the end, the purpose that Gen XYZ seek is right around them - if
they will look up from their smartphone devices - human connection. We need to
appreciate more what we have, the help that people give us, and start to give
more to others and the world around us.

------
snowwrestler
I don't believe in deleting comments in general. I've said some stupid and
mean stuff here on HN, and I think it's important to leave those up,
especially if there are responses below them. If nothing else it helps me feel
an incentive to be less stupid and mean the next time.

------
MisterNegative
You are asking a question, and I see quite a few people answer. Since you
expect others to show appreciation for your contribution, why have you not
shown any towards them?

Also name calling everyone that doesn't adhere your cultural rules is quite
mean from my perspective.

------
KedarMhaswade
If you enjoyed responding (like I am doing now), then that's that. You got the
worth of the time you spent. Of course, if one were _expecting_ more than that
(e.g. others not being a jerk or even being nice), then its fulfillment is an
added bonus. By not getting the bonus, should we be unhappy also about the
salary that we already got? Or is this too idealistic an opinion? If the
others' behavior _deeply_ affects us then we are too vulnerable, no?

------
ColinCera
Some people are jerks. Some people are too frazzled to remember good manners.
Some people were raised by wolves and aren't even familiar with the concept of
manners.

I don't expect people to say thank you when I answer a question. I used to,
but that expectation was beaten out of me a long time ago. But I definitely
appreciate it — it's a nice surprise — when someone does bother to say thank
you, and I try to remember to always say thank you myself.

~~~
themartorana
Ugh. It hurts to hear/read it, but it's true - common courtesy is now "a
surprise."

If I didn't say "please" or "thank you" every single time it was called for,
my mother would have taken me out of this world (you know, since she brought
me in to it) years ago.

------
thaumaturgy
FWIW, I've noticed that most of the Ask HN threads don't seem to get much
participation from the person doing the asking -- so I've answering any of
them, even on the really rare occasions when I might be qualified to answer or
have an opinion on the question.

It's sort of unfortunate to see the usual suspects, like patio11, putting
effort into a comment on an Ask HN thread only to see no response from the
submitter.

------
beachstartup
_> People - don't be a jerk. If you ask a question and someone answers, say
thank you. They've taken the time, does it cost you too much to be polite?_

this is why i am in the habit of top-quoting my replies if i put any effort or
thought into it. when people are wrong, embarassed, or let something slip they
shouldn't have, they're likely to delete. it's just human nature.

------
k2enemy
Maybe they didn't want to bring down their average comment score? I'm not
saying that is a good reason, just a possible reason.

------
markolschesky
This is actually my #1 problem with Quora too. I try to write a lot of
pragmatic questions to answers, mostly because I like the idea of helping
folks. Unless I'm totally in left field, I feel like I'd like some
acknowledgment that my answer was either what they were looking for (thanks!)
or that they thought that it was incorrect (I disagree because...).

------
nanoscopic
Are you sure that the original author deleted the question, or was it a
moderator? You may be pointing a finger at the wrong person.

------
sillysaurus3
It seems like this is an instance of a more general trend: The commenting
ecosystem is in decline. It's better than Reddit, but it's a shadow of what it
once was.

I've noticed downvotes are trending now. The downvotes do correct
themselves... most of the time. But there's a lot more frivolous downvoting
due to the influx of people that have attained downvote privileges but haven't
really shunned the mindset of other community sites that encourage that sort
of thing. Eight years ago, pg wrote about a problem that may be happening here
now:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/15n2/the_incontr...](http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/15n2/the_incontrovertible_truth_about_reddit/c15tz)

It used to be that you could hold a contrarian opinion and not be at risk of
being jumped on by the community or your position being misinterpreted. That
seems no longer the case:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8143432](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8143432)

The person you responded to may have deleted their question because they're
worried about how people might judge them for merely asking the question.
Since HN consists of people you may be working with in the future, people have
to be more concerned about choosing their words (and questions) carefully.
It's not so easy to just speak your mind or ask innocent questions anymore
when your identity is tied with your handle.

I don't know if there's a solution. There may not be another vibrant community
of developers for another decade, for the same reason there isn't a second
vibrant online auctioning site. Smart people are on HN because other smart
people are on HN. The only solution I can think of is to resist letting
irksome things irk you. Easier said than done, but it beats giving up.

~~~
bane
On certain topics, HN always had a downvote problem for certain contrarian
opinions. For example, heaven forbid you didn't think everything Apple
produced when Steve Jobs was alive was a gift from heaven. Anything
questioning that was always downvoted, even if presented in a non-snarky way.

It was so bad that pg even introduced a downvote floor (-5) to keep people
from shedding hundreds of points of karma when the downvote brigade inevitably
pounced. This simple change really helped with user engagement and breaking up
some of the more fantastic group think here IMHO.

We're just seeing a different form of what HN has always had, but just on
different topics. Just like the karma floor "fixed" the old downvote brigades,
some kind of adjustment will probably fix what's going on these days.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
> _On certain topics, HN always had a downvote problem for certain contrarian
> opinions. For example, heaven forbid you didn 't think everything Apple
> produced when Steve Jobs was alive was a gift from heaven_

Also see: Snowden is not a hero, Piracy is not ok & The NSA snooping is not so
bad.

~~~
gadders
I'd add anything negative about Aaron Schwartz to the list.

~~~
streptomycin
Only after he died. Before then, HN wasn't too thrilled with his tactics.

------
teekert
Was it an "Ask HN:"? It Took em some tries until I figured out that was just
it, add "Ask HN:" to the title. I have deleted 2 earlier tries. Didn't see any
responses though, but perhaps I should have hit F5. It could have been that
someone was just being naive.

~~~
ColinWright
It wasn't you. Mistakes do happen, and maybe the incident in question was just
one of those, but the sentiment remains.

------
computerjunkie
This is all too common with online communities, I am part of other online
communities and you will always find people who post a question and receive
great answers but the original poster will not even respond with a simple
thank you.

More stringent rules when joining the community possibly?

------
aharonovich
I wouldn't take it personally. It was kind of you to answer the question, but
take into account that while you are (evidently) HN savvy, many are not and
perhaps lack the skills to send you a personal note about them having to
delete the question quickly.

------
iancarroll
Wouldn't it make sense to prohibit deleting after x comments have been made?

------
eduardordm
I usually check the ask section so I can read answers from you, patio11 and a
few others. You have helped me a lot and I learned a big deal of interesting
and helpful things. That said, thank you.

------
jlees
Also phrased as:

Remember the person behind the keyboard is a real person. You might not agree
with them, but they're a living, breathing human being who took time out of
their day to type what they typed.

------
sosuke
You aren't out of touch, I feel like the downvotes are being used more often
on HN, maybe someone like dang could look at the actual data to see if there
is any validity to the feeling.

------
JTon
I'm with you. Seems like it should be common courtesy to me.

------
jdhendrickson
If your reply was technical in nature and their user name is their actual name
it could simply be worry about being googled during a job application.

------
4k
May be that person felt embarrassed/stupid after asking the question.
Personally, it wouldn't compel me to write a post about it.

------
Htsthbjig
Take a shower,take you partner or children with you and get out for a walk,
look at the birds, the threes or the sea, or better go to a place where you
can look at the thousands of millions of trillions of stars.

Then you will realize that it doesn't matter. Seriously, it doesn't matter at
all.

Sometimes it happens to me too and I need to focus again on what is important
and what is not.

------
capex
Isn't saying 'Thank you' against the ethos of HN?

~~~
ColinWright
From
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html)
:

    
    
        Empty comments can be ok if they're
        positive. There's nothing wrong with
        submitting a comment saying just
        "Thanks." 
    

Filling a thread with lots of very short comments just saying "Thanks" is
discouraged, but in a short exchange in an item that's not going to spawn a
huge amount of discussion, saying "thanks" won't derail or pollute the thread.

Quoting further:

    
    
        Which brings us to the most important
        principle on HN: civility.

------
cinitriqs
Ah well... I have a -4 downvote just because I accidentally replied to the
wrong thread one day.. big deal... won't sleep any less over it... guess
that's part of the internets...

------
eau
S/he probably did not learn about common courtesy growing up. Society will
give this person a lesson one day...

------
0-o
Thank you!

------
blutgens
wat

------
korzun
Welcome to the internet.

Maybe they erased the post by accident? How do you know that your answer
solved their issue or was relevant? You might think that was the case but it
might not be.

In general, I think this is a extremely silly.

I had instances where I would post about cloud infrastructure and somebody
would crawl out of their hole to 'educate' me on colocation, thinking they are
solving a ground breaking issue.

~~~
scott_s
Please don't fall back on things like "welcome to the internet." One, it's
needlessly snarky. Two, we would like this place to be _better_.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
We'd _like_ that, but... after a long time of people trying to build internet
communities, from newsgroups to Slashdot to Reddit to HN, it seems like this
may be what the internet is. Or, perhaps, this is what you get when you allow
open membership.

~~~
maxerickson
It hasn't been all that long in human terms. Especially when you consider that
it was only ~ 5 years ago that "almost everyone" in developed countries was
finally online.

I think in many senses, HN is a first generation response to how to get a
bunch of people who don't really know each other to have a decent conversation
in a low context environment.

------
forca
Indeed.

------
danbucholtz
This advice really applies to all walks of life. If you're running a start-up
(mine is gopaperbox.com), this is how you should treat your customers. More
than likely there is someone that does something similar to you. The best way
to win is to treat your customer with the utmost respect and be as fair as
possible to them. Cliche advice, yes, but it is absolutely integral to
success.

~~~
minimaxir
You're being downvoted because you're self-promoting your startup for no
reason, not because your content is low quality.

