
Do the Most Hipster Thing Possible – Move to Des Moines - JSeymourATL
http://www.nationaljournal.com/next-america/population-2043/do-the-most-hipster-thing-possible-move-to-des-moines-20141016
======
rquantz
_The Social Club is now lodged in an old firehouse built in 1937, and has a
theater, classrooms, bars, art gallery, and adjoining restaurant [...]
Mannheimer created something that would have taken the rest his life and $300
million to complete if he 'd stayed in New York. It took him seven years and
$12 million._

Ok, I haven't seen Mannheimer's place, but something that matches this
description just opened up across the street from me in Bushwick, Brooklyn. I
guarantee that the hipsters who opened it didn't have a budget greater than
$12 million, and nobody was thinking about this neighborhood more than a few
years ago.

In other words, while New York can be a hard place, things still happen here,
artists still live here and produce amazing work, and it's hard to imagine
there's a better place for performing artists to work anywhere in the US. For
some reason, there has been a move recently to declare the big coastal cities
impossible to live in, yet they remain great places to live, which is why so
many people want to live here.

On the other hand, if you're going to start a company and have an extremely
limited budget, by all means do it somewhere other than NYC or SV. Artists
need an audience. A tech company just needs an internet connection.

Edit: also, I want to address this quote: "In the world of hipsters, is there
anything more ironic than coming to live in Des Moines, as opposed to living
in Brooklyn?"

Anyone still talking about irony with regards to hipsters clearly has no idea
what the kids in Bushwick are doing. These are the most earnest people you can
imagine.

~~~
dr_
A newly established startup that just needs an Internet connection maybe could
be created anywhere - but a company, which at some point may want to bring in
more seasoned talent as it grows, is probably better off near the coastal
areas, with a few exceptions.

~~~
briandear
"Bring in seasoned talent.." All seasoned talent needs is an Internet
connection. A successful company doesn't require a ping pong table. Basecamp
makes more money each year than most startups ever will and they're entirely
remote. I love in the south of France and work just fine without having to go
to company HQ in New York. The only folks working in the office are just the
sales guys and even they could do their work just fine from home if they were
so inclined. Location is only relevant if you need an address to impress a
particularly unelightened investor. The myth that the talent is only in San
Fran or NYC is getting played out. I have several devs that work for me that
live in Portland, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Belgrade-- folks all over the place
and they're "top tier" talent. In fact I would argue that it's harder to
recruit talent in NYC and San Fran.. Real wages are comparatively lower than
pretty much anywhere else in the country and you're competing against places
like Google, Twitter, Apple. Why would a Dev come work for your (figuratively)
rinky-dink startup for likely less money and likely worthless equity
(statistically speaking) when they could walk down the street and work for any
number of successful companies? However if I lived in a place like Grand
Rapids, your startup might be an attractive choice.. And it would even save
you money: you can pay the same salary but you'd pay less for their health
insurance and you could save on the extra office space. You could also save on
the silliness like a "beer fridge" or whatever else is the latest trend in an
attempt to be a great place to work.

My criteria for a great place to work: competent product managers, an
interesting product, a good salary, equity that isn't insulting, proper
vacation time and other folks working with me that value high quality code.
That's pretty much it. Your awesome office space is a waste of money and
doesn't attract "good" developers -- a good dev is not going to sign up with
you because of office space; those other elements must be there. Anyone that
places a value of the office space over the value of those other things is an
idiot. When I did work in an office in New York, I enjoyed my time the most
with a company that had no windows, was in a cramped, shared space with barely
enough room for a laptop, let alone a massive desk for my 27" monitor much
more than the hip place with great coffee, a ping ping table and catered
lunches because of the work we were doing and the people I had to work with.

Talent should be location irrelevant for an Internet company. Actually, unless
you have a warehouse or must meet customers in person or sell retail (or build
a physical product,) the entire concept of an "office" is about as relevant as
a VCR.

~~~
programd
I have to agree 100%. I ran a company started in 1994 which was entirely based
online, no office, contractors all over the world. Even then, other then an
occasional "Huh. Really? You can do that?" nobody really cared that we did not
have office space. Having said that you do have to have a physical mailing
address, and it should not be your home. The govenment generally has a hard
time dealing with a lack of physical presence, and it's useful to have
somewhere to store mail packages until you are ready to pick them up. Get a
business center mail drop. I think I paid about $20 per month for 10 years.

------
etjossem
Having moved from Des Moines to San Francisco, I can say with confidence that
Iowa has its upsides. A flourishing community of startup founders, hilariously
low rents (my perfectly nice studio ran for < $500/mo.), a culture of honesty
and selflessness, and - shockingly - no lack of things to do. Even the music
scene isn't half bad.

Lack of diversity is a serious problem; most people in Des Moines were born
there. From a startup perspective, there's also not much of an investor
ecosystem, and some companies struggle to find local funding. It's a smaller
and more homogenous city, with everything that entails.

~~~
yitchelle
It is interesting that not more satellite areas around SF are rising centres
of startups. Even Sacramento, which is quite near, does not seem to much
activity. Anyone know why?

~~~
moron4hire
This is just a guess, but perhaps there is a perception that, being so close,
why not just move the rest of the way to SF?

~~~
lostcolony
While being so far that travel to SF is really inconvenient. Sacramento is not
really being compared as "near enough to SF to count", but rather "A city in
the US that is not SF", and thus is being compared against every other city
that falls into that category. Being close enough that an hour and a half
drive (assuming no traffic) and the expensive parking necessary to visit SF
may be a point in its favor, but I'd imagine not a tremendous one.

------
Jemaclus
Almost everyone commenting here falls into two camps: A) "NYC/SF is great" and
B) "I've been to Des Moines, it's great."

But nobody here really seems to be comparing the two. If I live in SF/NYC and
I want to move to Des Moines, what are the upsides? What are the downsides?
Sure, Des Moines is a nice place with fun stuff -- but so are a hundred other
cities in the US. What makes Des Moines different or a good enough draw to
make me leave SF?

Lower rent? I can get that almost anywhere else. Hipsters? There are plenty of
those here. Big social clubs, nice restaurants, a music scene? I have that
here, too. Bike-friendly? So is the Bay Area (downtown SF notwithstanding)
Nice weather most of the year? Same as the Bay Area.

What's the big draw to Des Moines? Or Portland? Or Austin? Why would I pick
any of those places over SF or NYC or anywhere else?

I don't think it's enough to say "NYC/SF is expensive. You should move to Des
Moines, because we're great." I think you have to really make a case that life
in Des Moines is going to be better than where you live now, or else I have no
reason to uproot my life and move, yeah?

(Genuinely curious -- I'm not gonna stay in SF forever, but I have no idea
where I'd want to go next.)

~~~
BuckRogers
I might be able to help here. I'm a native Iowan. I've lived all over that
state. I've also lived years in downtown Chicago and Austin. I've also lived
overseas in France. I've been to the bay area, NYC, Miami, pretty much
everywhere among other hot spots, but haven't lived in those places.

I'm going to be honest, I know DSM well and if it were so great I'd be there
now. I'm not sold on the growing hype train about DSM, and the cheap cost of
living is an excuse for employers to give you lower wages. It's a nice,
progressive city though.

So yes, the best part about DSM is that it is a nice city, albeit a bit small.
Part of the influx of people are younger Iowans gathering there as the other
cities/towns have gone bust.

As an individual with gainful employment, stay where you are unless you're
made an offer in DSM. I can't honestly recommend anyone pack up and make the
move without. A lot of employees run around that city with the same few
insurance companies on their resumes. It's just a very small market.

The short answer to your question IMO is that in the 'midwest revival' cities
group, it's one of the best choices. It's better for a founder than it is as
an employee though.

I'm also looking to put down some roots at this point, Seattle, Chicago and
maybe Portland are in the running. If you're from the west coast I personally
would pick Seattle.

For myself, I'm likely returning to Chicago to put down roots and buy a home,
as a robust public transportation system means more to me than any other
metric. Spending half my life in traffic isn't something I'm willing to
accept.

I think you're spot on though with questioning the hype.

~~~
kfcm
Second BuckRoger's post, in general. I'm a native rural Iowan, who lived in
Des Moines (DSM) part of my career, and am there often for family purposes.

My recommendation is simple:

Unless you are a CPA, actuary, lawyer or some other bureaucrat, don't move to
DSM. In fact, I've advised many people to move away.

The reasons are simple.

While there are both tech and brick/mortar startups in DSM, the scene isn't
huge and it does have life-span issues. Startup City closed up shop this fall
after 2-3 years. Gravitate--the co-working spot mentioned in the article--is
the latest in a series of attempted co-working spots over the past several
years.

Regular employment options are a huge concern too. DSM is government,
insurance, mortgages and banking, with a handful of ag and convenience-store
companies thrown in the mix. The common refrain I hear from old colleagues and
family working for insurance/financial services companies is how
unsatisfied/miserable they are, and how they wish there was someplace better
to go.

The marketing, advertising and publishing companies shouldn't be forgotten
either. (Hint: re-read that last sentence in context of the article.)

Another huge thing people don't often consider is airfare costs. DSM
International traditionally has had very high airfares--so high, many
companies have sent their employees to Omaha or Kansas City to catch flights,
because it's more cost effective--even with mileage and hotel bills.

Ignore the hype. There are much better places to live and work than Des
Moines. I now live and have my own business in the Minneapolis/St. Paul (Twin
Cities) metro, and couldn't be happier. For everything the article states
about Des Moines, MSP is several orders of magnitude better.

------
wyclif
If you're interested in alt-startup US cities, here's my list of places I
would be interested in _if_ I were a founder or early employee:

1\. Boulder 2\. Austin 3\. Omaha 4\. Des Moines 5\. Reno (the real sleeper,
but just look at the low, low business tax rate and proximity to SF).

The above list isn't meant to be chiseled into stone—it's just a thought
experiment on my part and I'm interested in what others think the pros/cons of
these towns would be. The obvious con would be the lack of proximity to
investor and startup networks and that ecosystem.

~~~
eli
I hear Austin is already getting tough: high rents forcing out exactly what
made it cool in the first place.

I personally think the value of being in a hot well known startup city is
overrated. My startup is in DC and we're doing fine.

~~~
crazyjayd
We actually visited Austin to move there, and found the rents/home pricing so
much, that we would have to live in a distant cookie cutter home community. We
went with Boston, because of bigger job market. Better public transportation
and crappier weather (j/k).

------
larrymyers
I travel from Chicago to Des Moines several times a year to visit my parents,
and have seen much of what the city has to offer. Restaurants, music, culture
are all fantastic. The local craft beer scene is growing like crazy, and most
taprooms have prime spots along popular bike trails throughout the city. I'd
consider a fantastic city for biking. And between Ragbrai and the HyVee Tri
every year I'm reminded of how awesome the bike scene is there.

The tech scene is like many other mid-sized cities in the Midwest: small,
growing, but not ever close to the major tech hubs. If you're going to
bootstrap a company and want to have a low cost of living it's not a horrible
place to do so. Dwolla strikes me as a bit of an anomaly in the city, as most
of Des Moines is insurance companies and agribusiness (which is no joke,
especially if you like embedded programming and GPS).

You absolutely have to own a car, and in the past few years something
resembling bad traffic has started to appear as the sprawl north and west of
the city accelerates.

Des Moines is basically a better alternative to the other mid-sized cities
like St. Louis, Indy, Columbus, Milwaukee, etc.

~~~
cushychicken
Man, I've done RAGBRAI twice, and that is some great fun. I have the century
patch from my second go on my messenger bag, and I get people stopping me to
chat about RAGBRAI whenever someone recognizes it.

------
moron4hire
>> ... in the process of building a new Des Moines, a tech hub in Silicon
Prairie...

Every story that comes out about every city has a statement like this. We've
had different cities across the country trying to become "the Silicon Valley
of XYZ" for the last 15-20 years. Have any of them done it? Considering we're
still calling the effort "the Silicon Valley of blah blah blah", I think not.

I used to live in Philadelphia. I now live in Washington D.C. I've spent a lot
of time in Baltimore. I wouldn't want any of these places to change from what
they are to the "Silicon Valley of the East Coast". They should stay
Philadelphia, Baltimore, and DC.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the Valley is awesome. I've personally never been
there. I hope it has its own culture that the people there are proud of and
it's not trying to become "The NYC of California" or something like that. My
complaint is that we get bludgeoned over the head with popular press talking
about "diversity is good, we need to increase diversity", but it misses the
biggest chunks of it when it's right in their face. There is still a lot of
good left in local culture.

~~~
brandnewlow
What's silliest is that these nicknames make no sense. Why call your town
"Silicon __________" to refer to a scene where people are making iPhone apps?
Where's the Silicon?

~~~
jeffwass
Agree 100%, and also the Silicon <Tag> theme is getting tired.

At least here in London they're now calling the Old Street tech hub 'Tech
City' instead of 'Silicon Roundabout'.

~~~
rb12345
It always was, officially. It's just that everyone else ignored that and
called it "Silicon Roundabout" regardless.

~~~
walshemj
As old street used to be a major tech centre for BT (207 and 211) we used to
call it the one with the really rubbish canteen.

------
sixbit
It's great to see people are starting to realize that there are opportunities
inland in America, especially if you are bootstrapping and want some extra
breathing room cost wise.

I spent most of my time in America in NYC and SF (originally from Canada), but
recently moved out to Dallas for much of the same reasons. Had started a
company so I wasn't tied to SF for work anymore and the cost of living in
Dallas where housing was 10x cheaper tempted me to take a risk and come out
here, and I have no regrets. More space, lots of things to do tech wise and
arts and culture wise, especially if you seek it out and are intentional about
it.

------
desas
As a Brit, pretty much all I know of Des Moines is what I've learned from Bill
Bryson, the first line of his book "Travels in Small-Town America" is "I come
from Des Moines. Somebody had to."

~~~
pm
I do remember that line - Bill Bryson is gold. The other fact I remember is
that Slipknot originated there.

------
bsenftner
So bizarre to read about my hometown like this. My friends and I growing up
there in the '80s used to call it "Dead Minds Iowa". I've noticed some moving
back, but for the most part a huge portion of my generation left Des Moines as
soon as we could.

------
klunger
I am from Chicago, but went to school at Grinnell. We used to drive
alternately to Des Moines or Iowa City on weekends for something different. I
preferred Iowa City, but Des Moines was great too.

Anyway, my point is that the state of Iowa is this beautiful, underrated and
amazing place. I have lived in a lot of places since graduating and have lived
abroad for the past several years now. But, if I ever did go back State-side,
I would probably try to find a job in either Iowa City or Des Moines. They are
both lovely cities, for all of the reasons mentioned in this video.

------
mcav
I'm from Des Moines (now in SF); it has really matured in the last twenty
years. It's a great place to live: inexpensive, nice people, plenty of space,
definitely worth overlooking the stereotypes. Weather? You got it: feet of
snow in the winter, hot in the summer, perfect in the fall and spring.

------
lil_cain
Best men's (and junior) roller derby team in the world.

------
programminggeek
I think Lincoln, NE is far more hipster than Des Moines.

------
brohoolio
I thought Detroit was the hip place to move to.

~~~
vital101
If looking for a city sized similarly to Des Moines, check out Grand Rapids,
MI. Lots of great art, craft brews (Founders Brewing anyone?), and a small
startup scene. You're also a 30 minute drive to Lake Michigan in the summer,
which is nice when its warm enough to experience it :)

[http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=grand+rapids%2C+mi+vs+d...](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=grand+rapids%2C+mi+vs+des+moines%2C+iowa)

------
bigtunacan
I currently live in Cedar Rapids, which is largely referred to as the
"corridor" area; the region joining the "separate" cities of Iowa City,
Coralville, Cedar Rapids, Marion, Hiawatha which are all sort of converging
into one larger metro area as population and grow increases. We are about a 2
hour drive from Des Moines and there is a lot of collaboration happening
across the state outside of just Des Moines.

There is huge growth happening in the tech sector within Iowa, but also in
other areas, education, medical, insurance, agri-business, being a few of the
key areas.

I've seen mention on here already of RAGBRAI and the bike friendliness of Des
Moines; this is more true in the Iowa City/Coralville areas, and equally true
in the main Cedar Rapids districts.

Here are some things that are more interesting though; the midwest has some of
the lowest in the nation, and Iowa sits at an average unemployment rate of
4.5%. In terms of diversity; it may not have been that diverse 20 years ago,
but these days Iowa is ranked as the 3rd most progressive state, right behind
Massachusetts and California.

We have huge incentives for technology, start-up accelerators, local tech
conferences, low cost of living, local re-investment. Personally, I hate the
"Silicon Prairie" term, because it means that people turn it into a us vs them
sort of comparison. In terms of raw numbers, more successful start-ups are
going to come out of California; or I would certainly hope so since the
population of the state is in excess of 38M whereas as Iowa is just barely
over 3M. However in terms of your chances of success; these days I think the
odds are probably in your favor in Iowa.

I'm just some dude, and I've had beers, dinner, or just visited with CEOs of
many of the tech businesses (long established & start-ups) and the thing is
these are great people. They still relate to their humble beginnings and they
want to give back and grow business right here. They are so approachable, and
I think this is in large part due to the fact that the lines aren't as long
because we are still small.

Right now I seriously have to give a shout-out to Eric Engelmann, founder of
the Iowa Startup Accelerator and the CEO of Geonetric. He is an all around
great guy, who has done so much for this area and continues to do so, and
there are too many more around here to name.

Is it Hipster? Some yes, some no. Is it a great place to be right now?
Unequivocally; Yes. But you don't have to join us; we'll continue to do just
fine on our own. If you do though; you just might fall in love.

To end with; here's some links to a few things that are happening in Iowa

[http://www.iowastartupaccelerator.com/](http://www.iowastartupaccelerator.com/)

[http://uipartners.uiowa.edu/deviowa](http://uipartners.uiowa.edu/deviowa)

[https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6uYhe4TzHsCNjNWVlhDMXAwVFE...](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6uYhe4TzHsCNjNWVlhDMXAwVFE/edit)
(Mapping Venture Capital In Iowa)

[http://www.welchavenue.com/](http://www.welchavenue.com/) (Iowa only start-up
news)

[http://siliconprairienews.com/](http://siliconprairienews.com/) (Midwest
start-up news)

~~~
A_COMPUTER
> In terms of diversity; it may not have been that diverse 20 years ago

Most of that diversity is comprised of low-wage agribusiness, factory work or
meat-packing labor.

------
percentcer
"Don't try to do that because it's already been done" is a terrible attitude
to have and I'm surprised they open the video with it.

------
msoad
Lack of diversity makes it hard for people from other cultures to live in such
city. How can I live without access to Turkish food??!

~~~
yeldarb
I agree, I would love to see more diversity in Des Moines but I think this is
more a function of size; a smaller metro can't have a community of every
culture.

I have been waiting for a good Cuban place for far too long!

But it's not like there is a complete lack of diversity. There are large
numbers of Vietnamese and Bosnian immigrants living in the city to name a few.

------
sneak
You misspelled Berlin.

~~~
monksy
The last thing that Berlin needs/wants is more hipsters from NYC. The amount
of resentment by the German people for that group is pretty high. Go to a
nightclub, they'll deny you entry if you don't speak German or look American.

~~~
sneak
I'm an American someone who's been called a hipster who moved from NYC to
Berlin.

I walk into Berghain whenever I want. Then again, I care about the community,
took the time to learn German, and have established connections in my city of
residence.

If you're obnoxious, you're going to be shunned anywhere you go. Your
misconceptions aren't helping Berlin _or_ NYC.

~~~
monksy
Yet there are tons of obnoxious people who didn't. It's not a misconception.
It's a reality.

------
badmadrad
Godspeed Des Moines. Godspeed.

~~~
badmadrad
I can understand why the city wants to reinvent itself and I admire this
campaign. I'm sure the people there are nice to but its is not going to have
the draw of the bigger cities. There is also an inherent risk with moving to a
smaller city. Cost of of living is directly related to opportunities a certain
area provides. If cost of living is lower its because it has to be for many
reasons. Not to mention if you are younger and you want to learn from the best
in a certain technical field you will be harder pressed to find that in Des
Moines. I am not saying that there aren't great people in Des Moines but
proportionately that number may be less than larger cities. Either way
godspeed.

