
Airbnb's new typeface - welder
https://airbnb.design/introducing-airbnb-cereal/
======
dawhizkid
All I can gather from this is Airbnb has way too many engineers and designers
for the amount of actual work there is to go around.

At the end of the day, the day to day engineering problems Airbnb has are not
very interesting. It’s a web app that can handle peak traffic with standard
technologies (meaning nothing real time, live streaming, or millions of users
at once).

I have no clue what most engineers would be doing there day to day.

~~~
adventured
HN at its worst: using a post about creating a font as a cheap excuse to mock
Airbnb's engineers and designers, their jobs and their reason for being
employed there.

And somehow it's the top comment in the thread, as opposed to, say, actually
discussing the font or the content of the article. Wtf.

~~~
syassami
it's a classic HN. "I can build that in a weekend!"

~~~
mephitix
Actually my response was - WHY build/work on this? I understand that licensing
a font can cost a company a lot of money but there is no reason why a company
of this size can't just use any of the thousands of open source fonts
available. It is a waste of time/resources that is pretty characteristic of a
big tech company (having worked at one).

In at least the cases I've seen - the reason why this happens is because
design teams want to stand out and stamp their identity on the company. It is
a reason to add imaginary value to internal "design studios" and promote
designers to arbitrary titles.

And engineers, PMs, etc. mostly do the same. Create work, features, platforms
that add no real value but simply to stamp their identity and pursue
(effectively) self-promotion.

The original commenter makes a great point about saying that there are many
other things to focus their energies. Okay, throwing engineers at a single
problem is not a good way to do things.

But the AirBnB iOS app has been broken for ages. Various visual and functional
bugs. Offline support is arguably the most important feature for an AirBnb app
(if you're traveling and don't have service). But this hasn't been tackled at
all.

Instead AirBnB engineers are going through all of their properties and
updating their fonts, fixing issues with responsiveness/scaling, packaging on
mobile platforms, etc. WHY?

~~~
slededit
The WHY is because they want a unique brand identifier. If they used a font
anyone else could use then it would no longer be unique to the brand.
Essentially they don't want you to feel comfortable or at home on a
competitors site who may try to mimic their branding.

This expense goes under marketing not R&D.

------
krstffr
Dalton Maag probably had a pretty good 2018 so far:
[https://twitter.com/kodform/status/996447044100386816?s=21](https://twitter.com/kodform/status/996447044100386816?s=21)

~~~
brailsafe
Yep. Those look almost identical.

~~~
krsdcbl
Look again: a, f are pretty different, proportions differ all over (see O),
and the author of the tweet clearly hid the tapered & much wider aperture of
the Airbnbs e behind the image.

Type design is a subtle thing - they are clearly similar, but definitely not
identical

~~~
fermienrico
Type design is a subtle thing is such a wrong statement. Type design is
everything - big and small things. This is why it takes a long time to design
a timeless font because the search domain is insanely massive.

Let's be honest here, Netflix Sans and Airbnb Cereal are pretty much identical
except for the grotesk details.

~~~
lioeters
I was curious if you used the word "grotesk" as a technical term in type
design, like how "gothic" (apparently) has typographic meaning. I looked it
up, and learned that "grotesque" is a class/category of sans-serif fonts.

Re-reading your last sentence, you probably meant in a general way, as in
"grotesque: characterized by ludicrous or incongruous distortion; outlandish
or bizarre".

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sans-
serif#Classification](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sans-serif#Classification)

Edit: Oh, here's a great comment from someone who worked on the font, with a
mention of "Grotesque" san-serif.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17075836#17080855](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17075836#17080855)

~~~
fermienrico
I meant it in a typographical sense.

------
enra
One of the people involved in the project and answering questions in the
article. Happy to answer more questions.

We talk about reasoning for Cereal in the article and in my case study too[1].
In large organizations, you often have tens or hundreds of designers, support
multiple platforms (ios, android, web(mac, windows, linux) and do ad campaigns
around the world. When it comes to typefaces, there really isn't any universal
system fonts (other than Arial maybe), that are available on all platforms. If
you use different fonts on each platform, the design will be slightly
different, trying to manage a cross-platform design system (like we do [2])
becomes challenging. Every time, designer has to pick the right font,
potentially do 2-3 designs with different font to make sure they all look how
they want them to. Also then each time user or anyone in the company looks at
the design on their device, it look will slightly different. If the marketing
then also uses different type, it will look slightly off if you include
product shots (one reason why Apple now uses SF everywhere). Short answer:
having multiple fonts causes additional work and can confuse people,
especially inside the company.

Since there isn't universal cross-platform fonts, it means you often have to
embed fonts, and in some cases license them. Licensing fonts is different than
just buying a font file. Even for small developers quality fonts can run up to
$50,000 per app (imagine what the licensing costs are for a global company
with large userbase!). With licensing you never get exactly what you want in
terms of expression and functionality, and other brands can easily buy the
same thing.

As the last point, what I find really exciting that we can now consider font
kind of like a software. We change it whenever we find problems or just want
to improve something. That is usually not possible with licensing. Obviously,
you would and should only do your own typeface if you have these kind of
issues and care enough wanting to solve them.

[1]: [https://airbnb.design/working-type/](https://airbnb.design/working-
type/)

[2]: [https://airbnb.design/building-a-visual-
language/](https://airbnb.design/building-a-visual-language/)

~~~
brailsafe
Congrats to your team on creating what looks like a very versatile font. I can
appreciate the benefits that creating a custom font will have.

One of the other commenters mentioned that AirBnB's Cereal and Netflix Sans
(both overseen by Dalton Maag) are almost identical. Could you speak to the
differences, technical or otherwise between the results and how that relates
to differentiating the brand aesthetic?

~~~
econ_th0
op delivers a usual...

the fact is 99.999999% of people do not see or notice the difference.

i can say with strong belief that changing your font did not add to your
bottom line.

~~~
saagarjha
Fonts are a very subliminal thing. Sure, you may not be able to point out the
differences between certain fonts, but many can tell the difference between
different corporate identities.

------
invalidusernam3
"We have specific business needs around brand distinction, legibility, and
scalability, that no available typefaces were addressing"

The font looks almost identical to a lot of other sans fonts.

~~~
brailsafe
The difference between a fontset that looks similar and a fontset that solves
for all the business requirements can be vast. Cereal appears to be extremely
versatile and distinct in a few key areas. You don't need a custom font to
distinguish your brand from others, but you probably do if you're going to be
using that one typeface for every damn thing in every damn scenario.

~~~
6cd6beb
I think the fact that this new font has an installed base of 0 counts against
it's versatility.

I think the fact that a negligible amount of the general public could pick the
new font (knowingly, not by guessing) out of a group of 9 other sans fonts
counts against it's ability to distinguish the airbnb brand from others.

~~~
hshehehjdjdjd
Installed base is pretty meaningless in a world of web fonts and mobile apps.
Everyone will need to download the font once. Not a big deal.

~~~
6cd6beb
The installation process isn't the sum total of the point there. Known-good is
better than unknown, all other things equal (and not to sound condescending
but they basically are).

It's low risk but frankly it's even lower reward. If their goal was to
distinguish themselves, perhaps they could do it more effectively through
something people would notice.

~~~
brailsafe
Their goal turned out not to be to distinguish themselves.

------
deft
Why do they use a screenshot with a typo for demonstration purposes? Beautiful
is misspelled as "beutiful". Why are all these companies designing their own
fonts. It's not needed and for primarily mobile-based apps it ends up being
jarring.

~~~
atanasb
My personal take on this:

Q: why do they use a screenshot with a typo.

A: Maybe to bring attention to the font? To the letters that are missing or
those that are present? Maybe just because they can.

Q: Why are all these companies designing their own fonts. It's not needed...

A: Many reasons. It can be cheaper than licensing other fonts. It makes their
apps (and brand) stand out. Or people might find it more aesthetically
pleasing. The perceived `need` for it, has nothing to do with whether or not
you need it for their app/website to function properly. And maybe `jarring` is
exactly what they want.

~~~
rhizome
_It can be cheaper than licensing other fonts_

Can it? How many people-hours went into this, and which fonts have higher
licensing costs than that?

~~~
jrs95
It's definitely not cheaper than using free fonts. Or even modifying an
existing one -- it's not as if Airbnb's exclusive use of this font is going to
benefit them in any measurable way. Even if that were necessary, it seems like
they should have just paid Netflix to use their font, and maybe make some
changes, rather than working with Dalton Maag to make damn near the same
thing.

~~~
rhizome
I mean, what's the most expensive commercial font license? Neue Helvetica is
$350/yr/cpu.

~~~
notatoad
Does a per-cpu licence allow you to use the font in all your publications?

~~~
rhizome
I don't know the details of Linotype GmbH's licensing agreements, but my point
was that this route is surely less expensive than commissioning a new font.

------
spdustin
So... it seems like Netflix Sans plus more open apertures (angled terminals)
on letters like "e" and "a"

Was Netflix Sans the determined starting point?

~~~
Reedx
Pretty much... The firm that made Netflix Sans made this one too. Looks like
they just tweaked it a bit for Airbnb.

[https://twitter.com/kodform/status/996447044100386816](https://twitter.com/kodform/status/996447044100386816)

~~~
fermienrico
But they will say - "Oh, fonts are all about subtle things". Yes and no,
you're wrong. The search domain for fonts is extremely large and that's why it
takes forever, in some cases a decade, to design a really timeless font. Not
in 3 months, or worse - modify Netflix Sans and pawn it off as "One of a
kind".

------
Keloo
I get Error establishing a database connection

~~~
jdoliner
Same here, in a very pedestrian typeface no less.

~~~
anothergoogler
I found it bold.

------
iooi
Does anyone else with astigmatism notice that the e, c, and even the a are way
too closed off? Especially for print (and on the heavier weights), good luck
distinguishing these characters from far away with an o.

~~~
heartbreak
Is your astigmatism uncorrected? I can make the characters out just fine, but
I wear contacts for astigmatism.

------
abiox
i find it fascinating how bizarrely hostile to a company developing a new font
some people are. it's just branding and identity, like logos, color schemes
and design languages. not really a big deal. but holy smokes do people talk a
lot of shit about fonts... for whatever reason. what's going on? is it really
about the company, and not the font?

------
kccqzy
> Our Latin character set has a few hundred characters but Chinese Simplified,
> for example, has over 27,000. We intend to expand to include script systems
> used by our global community including Chinese, Japanese, Devanagari,
> Arabic, Hebrew, Cyrillic, Greek, and Thai, and that will take time.

Good luck with that. I wonder how long that will take.

------
adambware
Cached version:
[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mm7CiH...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mm7CiHImqIkJ:https://airbnb.design/introducing-
airbnb-cereal/+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

------
freese
This is really cool, and I love the name and its connection to Airbnb founding
story

------
foobarbazetc
God I wish we had “own typeface” money.

~~~
wanda
Just get Font-Forge[0] and a protractor. Give it a week or two and you'll be
able to throw together some copycat _LL Circular_ [1] derivative, to give the
illusion of having 'own typeface' money, which might in turn look rather
impressive to prospective investors.

(At least, when you say 'we', I presume you're speaking on behalf of a
fledgling business. If you're just saying that you'd like more money for your
family, well, I guess I'd still recommend making fonts because it's very
lucrative work apparently.)

[0]: [https://fontforge.github.io/en-US/](https://fontforge.github.io/en-US/)

[1]: [https://fontsinuse.com/uses/7192/airbnb-identity-website-
app...](https://fontsinuse.com/uses/7192/airbnb-identity-website-
app-2014-redesign)

------
woolvalley
Is it just me, or is the design motif that airbnb is adopting in this post
fairly similar to dropbox's? I'm also reminded of it in the new gmail
interface.

~~~
whitepoplar
and iOS 11

~~~
saagarjha
How so?

------
manmal
I‘m not at all a font expert or even geek, so forgive me if that’s dumb: Do
all those new product fonts look like Circular [1]? It’s always struck me as a
very unique font, but it’s becoming less unique every day it seems.

1:
[https://lineto.com/The+Fonts/Font+Categories/Text+Fonts/Circ...](https://lineto.com/The+Fonts/Font+Categories/Text+Fonts/Circular/)

~~~
skosch
That's a curious charge, since Circular _was_ Airbnb's CI font until today.

------
jasondebo
[https://youtu.be/cISYzA36-ZY?t=1m30s](https://youtu.be/cISYzA36-ZY?t=1m30s)

Anybody?

------
webnrrd2k
This post is like the corporate version of the masterbatory Ikea scene in
Fight Club.

------
baal232
I liken this to a hotel that decides to make their own lightbulbs. Or a
department store that produces it's own bespoke cash registers.

You can't argue that typography is so vital to their business that this is a
useful allocation of resources. Obviously, design is important to any company
that markets itself in some way. But not every company designs their own
typeface (although it seems like it, lately.)

Some are saying it's important for AirBnB to have their own distinct look, and
that requires a custom typeface. BS. Plenty of successful companies managed to
create a distinct brand identity using helvetica.

[https://99designs.com/blog/creative-inspiration/famous-
logos...](https://99designs.com/blog/creative-inspiration/famous-logos-made-
with-helvetica/)

Some are saying it's cheaper to make your own typeface than to license one.
Really? There are no cheaper typefaces that look suitable? (I'm not saying
this is impossible. I'm genuinely curious. Is that how bad it is?)

We have open source typography. Are none of those fonts suitable for their
purpose? Can any of them be improved by the designers at AirBnB? That sounds
like it would be cheaper than starting from scratch.

I care about beautiful typography as much as the next web designer / marketer
/ start up-whatever. But I also know how a business runs. And this seems like
something the business should not focus on. Tell me I'm wrong.

~~~
tomc1985
This is as much about designers and egoists jerking themselves off in the
service of a new 'corporate identity' as it is about a meaningful evolution in
image.

~~~
phkahler
The recent HN links to articles on "bullshit jobs" come to mind.

------
perk
I don't really know much it costs to buy a custom font by these designers
(Google suggests 150K USD and up).

To me this seems like a pretty cheap (and effective) marketing play by Airbnb.

------
Froyoh
No need to reinvent the wheel. There's already Comic Sans.

------
nik736
Error establishing a database connection

~~~
Raphmedia
[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mm7CiH...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mm7CiHImqIkJ:https://airbnb.design/introducing-
airbnb-cereal/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca)

~~~
optimuspaul
that serves up garbage.

I'm surprised they don't have a static site up for this kind of thing.

------
rdlecler1
Sad that an article on Airbnb’s font gets more attention than most startups
could ever hope to get.

~~~
ggg9990
Well, Airbnbs font will be seen by more people than most startups...

------
iblo66
I find it profoundly stupid for Airbnb to have their own typeface. It's like
they have lots of designers around and have to keep them busy with something.

Well at least they did not give them the usual entertainment for bored
designers: redesigning stuff that does not need a redesign.

~~~
huac
Creating a typeface which you own is cheaper than licensing a third-party
typeface, at scale.

~~~
phkahler
>> Creating a typeface which you own is cheaper than licensing a third-party
typeface, at scale.

The cheapest fonts are the ones installed on a users system. Web sites and
apps do not need to include fonts at all. In fact it's easy to argue that the
users should be selecting the fonts on their devices in most cases.

~~~
mozumder
Never let the user control your brand. System fonts should always be thrown
away.

Every company web site & app needs to include their own font. Otherwise, you
become a commodity, and you can be replaced by your competitors.

Business is about being different from competitors, not the same. And people
buy things that look good.

Companies that have crappy branding lose money, because they lose customers to
other companies.

~~~
jadedhacker
If your major differentiating factor is mainly branding, you are already a
commodity. Customers will often use shitty looking products if there's
something in it for them.

~~~
ggg9990
Not for a network effect business. A network effect business doesn’t need a
strong advantage or even any advantage if the network is strong enough. Note
that eBay has barely changed in 20 years yet is still the only place to go to
get Hamburglar sunglasses or whatever.

~~~
jadedhacker
Good point.

------
matchbok
Must be nice to have enough millions (by taking away apartments from city-
dwellers and avoiding laws) to afford a custom typeface.

------
baxtr
Please do a major rehaul of your crappy user interface instead of that stuff

------
aristocles
This font is the definition of frivolous corporate idiocy.

