
The Rise and Fall of Yik Yak - daschaefer
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/27/style/yik-yak-bullying-mary-washington.html
======
neolefty
The article makes the case (to me) that local + anonymous was a failed
experiment. In real-life communities, local means _not_ anonymous, and bad
behavior -- which is rare whether anonymous or not -- can be tied to an
individual right away.

The problem is that nasty, anonymous, and _local_ is a terrible combination:

> That hyper-localization is also what made the cases of harassment
> particularly galling. Ms. Musick, one of the plaintiffs, said, “With Yik
> Yak, in the back of your mind, you know they’re not from around the world or
> other parts of the state, they’re right there in your classroom, in your
> dining hall. On a campus with 4,500 students, that’s a pretty small group of
> people. This isn’t some creepy guy in his mom’s basement in Indiana.”

In contrast, nasty, anonymous, and _non-local_ is much easier to dismiss.

The plaintiffs tried to solve it other ways, but they couldn't. All the local
authorities referred them back to Yik-Yak -- the university staff, local
police -- and Yik-Yak usually did nothing and _at best_ would hide posts.

To be clear, most of Yik-Yak was non-harassing. Useful? I don't know.
Apparently not useful enough.

~~~
csydas
I'm not sure this is entirely fair. YikYak's undoing was doing away with the
features that brought people to it; it was a very popular application, and
continued to be right up until the de-anonymizing aspects were brought into
play. It's function a digital bathroom wall was pretty well executed and in
most cases, seemingly a success for interaction. It wasn't really good for
anything else besides shitposting, but it definitely was something that people
wanted.

I was working at a University in the heyday of YikYak and yes, there were bad
posts. Since it was tech related, our administration asked my department to
keep an eye on it, but for our school (4500 some students), the attitude was
more moderate than it was abusive. Threatening or harassing Yaks were almost
always down-voted off the app before we'd even have a chance to see it.

Obviously, other institutions didn't have the same luck that we did, but from
my point of view, there was a very good moderation system in place from YikYak
- sure, anyone could post something anonymously that was malicious and hateful
- but it was incredibly easy to clear it from YikYak.

The student body also took a huge interest in making sure that YikYak stayed
in the spirit of anonymous; lot of articles in the student paper about it, lot
of rants on the random Facebook Confess pages, and YikYak itself was filled
with comments about keeping "stupid shit" off of it. Did some kids still post
stupid stuff? Sure, but the rest were more inclined to help with the upkeep.

~~~
paulcole
>It's function a digital bathroom wall was pretty well executed

But is that an idea worth executing?

$73 million dollars down the tubes on a "digital bathroom wall." I would say
I'm amazed that anyone thought this was an idea worth investing in, but sadly,
I'm really not amazed at all.

~~~
stale2002
I know of no way that I can communicate with all of my friends anonymously.

Anonymity, and being able to express yourself and talk about your
secrets/difficult life issues without worrying about social consequencesz is
absolutely something that is valuable to the world.

There are lots of people in the world who feel completely unable to talk to
anyone about their personal issues.

------
pitaa
>two feminist groups and several former students filed a federal complaint
accusing the University of Mary Washington...of failing to protect the female
plaintiffs from cyber harassment...

I am confused as to why anyone thinks its the University's duty to protect
their students from "cyber harassment." I mean, I am aware of Title IX and
all, I am just shocked at the amount of control, influence, and involvement
into their students' lives universities are expected to have.

If a student is driving to class and hits a bird (causing them gross emotional
trauma) did the university fail to protect them from rouge avians?

~~~
gotothedoctor
Are you really confused? Leaving the law & federal funding requirements aside,
Universities seek to have successful graduates & thus it is in their best
interest to provide an environment that equips their students to learn. Being
harassed undermines these goals, so regardless of the law, it is in their best
interest to prevent such disruptions.

I'm not sure I understand the bird analogy. Is the point that Universities
can't control birds? Well, Universities can & do already actually demand that
their students not harass other students as a condition of their attendance.

~~~
gaius
_Universities seek to have successful graduates_

Once, yes, but I wonder if that is true anymore in these days of $60k+/year
fees. Do universities make more from undergrads or alumni donations these
days? Because if their goal really is successful graduates then they are not
setting their students up for success by policing every dispute. It would be
completely different obv if YikYak was the "official" app on campus, but the
university administration is nothing to do with it, and wouldn't have the
power to block it even if they were. What are you expecting them to do
exactly?

If a crime has been committed, go to the police, the real police.

~~~
gotothedoctor
Successful graduates become alumni who make donations.

To be clear, no one is suggesting that Universities should be "policing every
dispute." I am stating that Universities can and do seek to create the most
effective learning environment for their students--and that harassment
undermines this goal. This is why Universities, as indicated in the article,
blocked (aka geofenced) YikYak (& though it is not mentioned, other apps as
well).

Not sure I understand how that's relevant, but most University rules are not
laws--but, while breaking them may not be criminal or even illegal,it can
still get you thrown out of school.

~~~
pitaa
At this point I could take this to mean that you're arguing for safe spaces.
While creating an "effective learning environment" sounds noble, some students
seem to be interpreting this to mean they shouldn't have to hear viewpoints
they disagree with [1].

Coddled students _don 't_ make successful graduates, as evidenced by the
interns that were fired last year after writing a petition about the office
dress code that they thought was unfair [2], failing to understand that their
job was not a democracy.

Of course, there are times a university should get involved, such as if the
harassment is coming from a professor or university-owned email address. But
at some point, the most I think should be expected from the university would
be a referral to a therapist so the student can work through things and learn
coping strategies. It may sound callous to say, but like it or not there are
plenty of things that can be upsetting, hurtful, or emotionally damaging to
someone without actually being illegal or even reasonably preventable. The
university could help to make their graduates successful by making sure they
are capable of coping with this fact of life.

[1] [https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-
shu...](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shulevitz-
hiding-from-scary-ideas.html)

[2] [https://www.inc.com/alison-green/about-those-interns-
fired-f...](https://www.inc.com/alison-green/about-those-interns-fired-for-
petitioning-for-a-more-casual-dress-code-.html)

~~~
gotothedoctor
No, I'm not arguing for "safe spaces" here at all. Nor am I suggesting
students shouldn't "have to hear viewpoints they disagree with."

I am arguing that, along with legal duties, Universities have an interest and
an incentive to prevent their students from being harassed. To be clear, being
harassed is not being disagreed with.

I don't see the relevance of this anecdata & punditry to the issue, nor do I
know what "coddled" really means or why such a generalization would apply to
every University. Regardless, pattern recognition over decades of experience
tells me that people who are new to the workforce inevitably behave as if they
are new to the workforce. And also, that with each new generation, pundits
offer some variation of "kids these days." On the plus side, if we've moved on
to "coddled", maybe people will stop complaining about those damned
millennials!

Anyway, even if we disagree, I am glad that you do think that sometimes the
University should get involved & that mental health services are useful.

~~~
gaius
If people are being harassed and threatened over an app, that is no different
to them being harassed by POTS - the police can deal with that.

But if people are going to their university and saying hi, I installed this
app that you didn't write or tell me to install, and I don't like it, sort it
out for me, then that's an unreasonable ask, IMHO. It's like getting angry
with a bakery because they won't repair your bicycle.

------
jjar
This article seems to miss the point of why Yik Yak really failed. It didn't
fail because of bullying, or bad publicity - That doesn't discourage users
from using the app unless they're the ones targeted. The app failed because of
the ham fisted attempts to control the userbase and remove a problem that did
not affect the vast, vast majority of the userbase by introducing the
"Handles" feature, and then later making it non-optional.

I'm not even sure if this was a response to harassment, at the time it almost
seemed like a pivot for the company - To become the next Snapchat or Facebook,
sell targeted ads, and become what every other social company does. This was
not what users wanted. It was the only place where people could truly make
their thoughts heard without fearing social backlash, which is an issue of
incredible importance for University students. And being able to talk with
people of a similar age from your University was the perfect gauge for all
those things you might want to say but can't. And the handles feature
completely removed that. It became extremely easy to tie a person to a handle
(Simply watch them while they've got the app open!). There was clear and
immediate backlash and people started uninstalling the app en-masse, even
posting on the platform about why they were doing so. Yik Yak reversed the
update but the damage had already been done - People didn't trust the company
to make the right decision any more, and the majority of users never
reinstalled.

Note that I'm not saying harassment was good and that the company should have
just thrown their hands up in the air and done nothing - The change marking
offensive language was welcome, and responding to geo-fence requests in
problem areas was fine. But the article fails to mention that the community
moderation is incredibly effective. Stupid and offensive yaks were removed
quickly through the power of the community - It only took 5 people to say "I
don't like this" and you could remove a post.

Perhaps where I was (A small university in the north east of England), we
didn't feel any real harassment. People posted racist and homophobic things
occasionally, but these posts were quickly removed. Changes to the apps main
functionality and appeal came overnight and surprised many people. They now
hated the app, aimed at removing a problem that simply didn't exist in the
community.

RIP Yik Yak. I'll miss you.

~~~
Svekax
I agree. Their app became popular as a place for uncensored, anonymous speech.
When they started censoring and requiring usernames their customers spitefully
deleted the app.

There are so few places left in the US where someone can engage in free
speech. Free speech is nearly nonexistent on college campuses. Yik Yak was
offering a product users couldn't find anywhere else. But they threw it all
away.

~~~
paulcole
>There are so few places left in the US where someone can engage in free
speech.

What?

Do you mean free speech or free speech free of repercussions?

------
quotemstr
I'm a big believer in fully anonymous communication. Unfortunately, we live in
a censorious age. Those who enable anonymous communication frequently become
the targets of legal and social pressure exerted by angry mobs, mobs mostly
composed of people who aren't even trying to communicate anonymously. Yik Yak
fell in part because, instead of listening to their users, they listened to
people who _weren 't_ their users.

The next Yik Yak needs to be fully decentralized --- with anonymous
development, so there's nobody to sue --- and with a network architecture that
resists technical blocking attempts. The next Yik Yak needs to treat censors
as adversaries, not partners. Only this approach can bring anonymous
communication to its full potential.

~~~
Danihan
How exactly does one achieve anonymous development in the walled garden of any
of the app stores? Genuinely curious.

------
Fej
I have little sympathy for Yik Yak. One of the other commenters mentioned that
it was a forum for shitposting...it's true, almost exclusively. That's no
business model. Good riddance.

If you really want local, anonymous communication, make a throwaway account on
reddit and visit a given school's subreddit.

If you just want to shitpost, visit /b/.

~~~
jjar
The ability to shitpost with _all_ types of people from your university was
the drawing factor. I am sure that 99.9% of people who go to my university
have never heard of 4chan, and maybe 20% (probably less) will use Reddit on a
regular basis?

Reddit also brings the issue that you're stuck talking to the same types of
people - Generally young, white, nerdy guys. That girl on your rowing team or,
the one you met in a club last week and oh so need to know the name of
certainly has never heard of reddit - but she will have Yik Yak! The barrier
to entry is so low, and it used to be a real talking point on campus. It was a
social faux pas not to have it installed.

~~~
1337biz
>It was a social faux pas not to have it installed.

So it's all over now? Any alternatives?

~~~
jjar
There was people who moved to the app Jodel here, but it just doesn't have the
same penetration as Yik Yak did. So I wouldn't say there were any true
alternatives, no. Someone did set up a facebook page where you can message in
and post gossip anonymously, so that fills some of the gap I guess.

------
danajp
I wish the author had spent a bit more time trying to uncover the inside story
of Yik Yak as well. It would have been nice to see a post mortem from
employees, investors or the founders.

------
tyingq
Surprised it hasn't been replaced by someone outside the US who wouldn't be
pressured to make it a safe space. Not discounting the potential issues...just
surprised it hasn't happened.

~~~
theparanoid
Probably, there just isn't the demand. Snapchat snapped up most of the market
(not anonymous but similar)

~~~
StevePerkins
I'm an alumni of Usenet and IRC from back in the early-90's. I can assure you
that there's always been (and probably always will be) demand for anonymous
forums, into which trolls can project sexual frustration and feelings of
powerlessness.

I was a bit too old to know about Yik Yak during its heyday, but I can only
imagine the troll-appeal of anonymity PLUS being able to target local real-
world individuals by name. Old school trolling was limited to targets who were
non-local, and by and large anonymous themselves.

So I have no doubt about the market demand from trolls. I just don't
understand why there was ever any demand from ANYONE ELSE. And I certainly
don't see a path to monetization.

------
mokash
What ruined Yik Yak for me was making the geographical areas larger so my
University's 'herd' included surrounding cities too. Too much noise. This
compounded with the removal of anonymity led to me deleting the application.

Wonder if it is possible to run an app like this at cost somehow.

~~~
Alex3917
> Wonder if it is possible to run an app like this at cost somehow.

Given that it's just an API serving short text snippets, the hosting costs
shouldn't be more than a few cents per user per year. Let's say you're serving
one university with 50,000 students, and your hosting costs are $3,000 per
year... Just send out an update email once a quarter with a few ads at the end
and you've more than covered your expenses.

~~~
simonw
You also need to pay for staff to handle customer and legal complaints. That
ain't cheap.

~~~
Alex3917
Maybe in addition to having your users indemnify you for their UGC in the TOS,
you could have users agree to pay you 25k every time they posted something
like a bomb threat, rape threat, drug deal, etc.

~~~
eropple
That would be wholly unenforceable.

~~~
DonHopkins
Just make them pay in advance. Apple's in-app-purchase system is pretty
airtight.

------
DonHopkins
To me, Tyler Droll and Brooks Buffington sound like joke parody names for
clueless rich overprivileged frat boy brogrammers, from an episode of Silicon
Valley or The Simpsons.

~~~
lgleason
That was my impression when I saw them speak at the Atlanta Tech
Village.....granted that place tends to attract those types but....

------
m3kw9
I can imagine the founders or investors going " hey! bad publicity is good
publicity, let's ride it out" without an exit plan

------
GhostVII
I'm pretty sure it died because they started adding accounts and identities
and stuff, which people didn't want. When it was fully anonymous it was
popular, but once they tried to remove the anonymity, it started to die. It
got a bit more popular when they started bringing back the anonymity, but it
was too late by then.

------
rdlecler1
A problem Yik Yak had was that it was primarily a university level product and
because of the proximity features they had to restart their network growth
after each vacation. Tying Location with some kind of organization or have a
decay function for location based on time spent in that location could have
perhaps fixed the issue.

------
oneplane
Sounds like an ignorance is bliss type of story to me. Just because it may not
be in some app next time doesn't mean nobody is having the same thoughts or
says the same things in some other form. Blaming some app for the existence of
harassment seems rather far-fetched to me.

------
repomies6991
In my area the young people all using Jodel, which is very similar. However it
has some moderation etc features.

------
crispytx
Pretty sure PiperChat killed Yik Yak.

------
qmarchi
Honestly, I don't get all the complaining from harassment.

We live in a digital age where we can control a large amount of our
information stream. If we don't like something, we just turn off the stream.
It's like left-wing advocates and Fox. They don't like it, so they don't watch
it.

If you don't like what people are posting on some service, remove the service,
inform people you know that you don't care about what's posted.

Go on living, stop being a hyper-sensitive prick about people saying mean
things. They're going to say them whether or not it's on Yik-Yak, 4chan, or
Facebook.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm missing something. Let me know. I love being
wrong, it lets me learn new things.

~~~
criley2
"But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm missing something. Let me know. I love being
wrong, it lets me learn new things"

So, I think the concept of society especially for teenagers in their school-
controlled world is very interesting.

You're ostensibly right, "just turn it off", but I think it's more
complicated.

So why would someone go to a place voluntarily where they are being attacked?

Maybe, it's an important part of the society there, an important forum that
the most respected people are using.

Being a part of your local Yik Yak for teenagers is like going to I/O or WWDC,
you're in the nexus of the community.

I think those chats acted that way for many teenagers. The location-binding
feature is perfect for the insular school communities to create exclusive
popular communities.

And to be as mean as they wanted through them.

Also with regards to harassment, Yik Yak would commonly be a place where
people go to discuss real life harassment of others.

So, for those unfortunate few, they weren't going to Yik Yak and seeing
harassment, rather, they never went, but their harassers used Yik Yak to
discuss, refine, and promote the real life harassment.

I think it's very complicated to try and insert ourselves back into the
insular school mentality to try and understand this, but I think it's simple
that Yik Yak was/is a popular tool for coordinating real life bullying.

~~~
ams6110
School (I'm speaking of high school and younger) isn't the real world. Many
things that are perfectly legal for adults are prohibited in school because
they disrupt the mission that the school is trying to accomplish. There's
certainly a grey area but things like dress and speech codes are well
established and for good reasons. A service like yik-yak has no real benefit
in an environment like that. In fact I don't even know why schools allow
personal mobile devices at all.

As far as universities go, yes I think "if you don't like it don't go there"
is much more realistic. Those students are all adults and by that age have
mostly (certainly not completely) outgrown the most petty type of cliquishness
and bullying that permeates the junior high and high school social scene.

~~~
s73ver
That's very much not true. College students can be just as petty and cliquish
and bullying as high school students.

And saying "Don't go there" isn't really a solution either. While the victim
might not be there seeing it, everyone else is. They're still having their
reputation damaged by the harassment brought upon them.

------
chrshawkes
I live in the city where YikYak was used to harass an activist at Mary
Washington University in Fredericksburg, Virginia. She was later savagely
murdered.

~~~
Danihan
... by her housemate. Over a personal altercation. Nothing to do with YikYak.

