
DEFCON: Why conference harassment matters - simcop2387
https://adainitiative.org/2012/08/defcon-why-conference-harassment-matters/
======
ChrisNorstrom
Thank you so much for this article. It actually had examples and those are the
best weapon women have against sexism/sexual harassment. It's one thing to
talk about sexism vaguely and broadly and another to actually tell the
stories.

" _I think this chick should lighten up personally._ "

It's hard for males (me included) sometimes to relate to sexism (think of all
the women in tech articles we've debated) or sexual harassment because we're
not on the menu. We don't experience it. We aren't the prey. It isn't until
men themselves feel vulnerable and dominated that they realize what an awful
feeling it is to be invaded, harassed, or threatened sexually. From "innocent"
ass grabbings to brutal rape. Men aren't frightened of such events because
they'll probably never experience them.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX2W8lgVUeA&list=FLpASQS...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX2W8lgVUeA&list=FLpASQSYUahqjFWtNG2YW2Tw&index=7&feature=plpp_video)

Enjoy. You'll see sexual harassment and rape in a whole new light after
watching that video. Getting your ass squeezed doesn't sound so innocent now
does it?

~~~
Tichy
Who would say "lighten up" to somebody whose groin was groped? Just because
one blogger suggested it, it still isn't the standard thing to say to women. I
downvoted you for quoting this out of context from another article and
fostering a harmful meme.

~~~
ChrisNorstrom
_"I think this chick should lighten up personally."_

Someone actually posted that HERE, in the comments below, it got such a
negative score that the comment disappeared and most people on HN won't see it
unless they have "dead" comments turned on in their HN settings. I was
responding to that person. Despite there not being a lot of comments like that
here (you'd get downvoted into oblivion) There are lots of guys like that all
over the place.

I get what you mean about it being hurtful to men. Being constantly shown as a
primitive horny neanderthal with no self control makes all men look bad. It
makes us feel bad to be represented that way. But it's not a "stereotype" it's
a statistic, don't be in denial or run away from it.

~~~
Tichy
I don't deny that the world is full of jerks, but I don't think it is possible
to cure them all. Better to simply avoid them.

Although I can understand if somebody wants to defend their turf (create jerk-
free zones).

If the "ligthen up" comments are voted away, it seems to be a good thing? So
why support the meme that "lighten up" is a standard response? You can always
find people displaying any grade of sexism you desire and point to them saying
"see, I told you so, sexism exists". It is just not a very useful thing to do.

~~~
mnicole
You can't just 'avoid' them; they're your co-workers, your managers, your
family members. Likewise, voting a comment off of the screen doesn't mean it's
"getting better", it means enough likeminded people were able to get their
point across.

Reddit illustrates the problem well; while the push for equality is out there
and people are hearing it, it doesn't stop misogynist/otherwise hurtful
responses to shoot up to the top, with little to no regret if it means laughs
and upvotes. Until that's not the overwhelming response, it isn't getting
better.

Men don't understand the problem. They haven't had to deal with it and because
they see themselves and their friends as upstanding citizens, they don't think
these things happen as often as they do.

~~~
Tichy
As I said, I understand defending your turf (ie your job, online community,
whatever). However calling out men really does nothing. I don't grope random
girls in bars, so I have no idea how I am supposed to react to your post.
Obviously would I encounter unpleasant behavior towards women, it would be a
different thing. But I rarely do. Also I think for the groping incident it was
pointed out that it is illegal, so I suppose had the groper been known, there
would have been consequences already.

It's true that from the beginning men don't understand the problem. But after
a while you can learn, and occasionally you get a homosexual approach. I
understand how it can be uncomfortable to be desired by a stranger.
Unfortunately I think it is partly in the nature of things. Women are "the
price" and hence men have to hunt after them. Men are pretty worthless
biologically (simply because it takes less men than women to create lots of
children).

That doesn't excuse disrespectful behavior, of course. But it is a biological
reality that at least men have to do a lot of approaching, and women will not
always like it (it shouldn't be groping, but I hope you get the idea).

I don't understand your issue with the voting: this is Hacker News, and the
offending comment was quickly removed. If Reddit doesn't work out that way,
perhaps don't hang out on Reddit? That is what I mean by avoiding jerks.
Personally I probably wouldn't enjoy Reddit either because of the jerks. But
you can not convert any and all environments, or at least, if you want to try,
good luck! I don't think jerks can be eradicated. I can only say it works well
for me: I hardly ever encounter jerks, and I don't think any of my friends
would grope women in a bar. I could make my life miserable by thinking about
the millions of jerks out there, but why bother?

------
david_shaw
I'm always hesitant to bring my fiancee to hacker conferences, but she wants
to support me and understand "what I do," so she has been to DEFCON the past
three years.

Yeah, she gets hit on. A lot. Mostly by drunk, smelly guys, and then proceeds
to tell me how much it sucks. Her ass was grabbed several times at DEFCON
events. My understand is that it's not an altogether pleasant experience for a
non-totally-nerdy girl to spend any length of time at security conferences...
and what with BSides and DEFCON, we were there a week.

But here's the thing: girls are going to get hit on at a drunken Black Hat
party at PURE just as much as they'd get hit on at a drunken _normal night_
party at PURE. Yes, it's hackers, and you'd maybe expect better behavior
(unless you've been to a lot of these things), but is the behavior _worse_
than any other night club? I'm not a lady, but based on what I've heard, not
really. Las Vegas is a dirty, "sinful" place, and any moderately attractive
woman going out to a bar or club there is going to get hit on.

Now, when we're talking about disgusting, incessant harassment, that's
different. And that is the line I think we need to draw. Sure, it's difficult
because many of these "hackers" are _severely_ lacking in the "social skills"
department, but walking up to a woman and grabbing her boobs is going to get
you slapped and probably arrested. Anywhere. Personally, I didn't see a lot of
that... just a bunch of nerdy, socially awkward guys trying (and failing) to
pick up women.

~~~
knowtheory
Honestly I don't think you're operating from the same baseline for behavior
that I and others do.

If you're at a conference, you're there amongst your peers and colleagues,
there is a certain level of respect and decorum that I would _like_ to assume
would be present amongst a community that aspires at least to some modicum of
collegiality.

You can say that the security community (which granted isn't _particularly_ my
scene) is rough and tumble, but surely there should be some expectation of
some basic human respect.

I guess put more succinctly, just because it's held at a night club, doesn't
make a conference party any less a conference related function.

~~~
obituary_latte
It's not just a conference, but a conference of mostly socially inept and
humanly horny gentle(or less-so)men. Not at all to excuse the behavior, but as
always, buyer beware.

Perhaps a partial solution would be to have a track dedicated to social
relations (not engineering!). Maybe include some of the finer points of a stay
in Las fucking Vegas.

Again, and I can't reiterate this enough, I'm not excusing inappropriate or
damaging behavior. It is important, though, that situational awareness be
accounted for. In a conference for cops, of course this behavior wouldn't be
expected. In a conference of mostly lonely males...

What I'm saying is that perhaps education may warrant a better outcome rather
than furthering the perpetrators into a social black hole. That is if we are
talking about otherwise "normal" folk in a drunken state rather than something
more pathological--which I think we are. Goons can should an do deal with
those others handily afaik.

\-- Edit: here we go with the downvotes. If you feel that way, and read past
the first paragraph, please expand beyond an anonymous click of the mouse.

How do you ever expect anything to progress without discussion? I may very
well be far off base, and am more than happy to discuss. I'd also be more than
happy to admit I'm wrong if that's the case. But please, I beg of you, let's
talk about it.

~~~
selenamarie
My experience is that tech conferences are mostly comprised of socially
competent people. In a group of 20 people, for example, I might find that one
person in a group is truly inept. So, to do the arithmetic for everyone,
that's 5%. Unfortunately, that's often about the same percentage as the number
of women present. :/

I won't lay out all of the problems with identification, getting the "socially
inept" into one room and educating them, making sure that whoever is teaching
this (as yet undefined) social skills curriculum is a good teacher, making
sure the education sticks, etc... Instead, I'm just going to share that I
don't think education of socially incompetent people will significantly
improve my conference experience.

Things that help include:

* An assumption on the part of conference staff, speakers and attendees that women are there to participate, not just observe or tag along

* Swift, friendly, supportive responses from staff if verbal or physical harassment is reported - often made possible by staff who are aware of an anti-harassment policy, and are trained in what to do (LCA did a great job of this in 2012)

* Allies who help stop hostile, harassing and inappropriate comments if they occur

And there's other stuff that helps too. There's some good stuff in the "what
can allies do" section of the Geek Feminism wiki.

Anyway, I appreciate your willingness to converse about this issue and hope
I've shed some light on why people might be down-voting your comment.

~~~
obituary_latte
I agree setting up a track for it would be difficult. I imagine, though, any
married dude could speak at the track. And wasn't thinking so much a mandatory
class, but a track like any other. Could be humorous/fun interspersed with
nuggets of info. Perhaps some tips and tricks as to where there may be a local
setting (not at the con) where the attendees could start to ply their new
skills.

Another possibility would maybe be a page in the booklet detailing
unacceptable behavior--or a request from con founder or such. I think almost
all the people attending are very smart; if they were to hear/see a request
from someone they look up to very highly, it might be enough to stifle bad
behavior even through a drunken lens.

To your points:

1) I think this comes back to the education thing. Be it a page in a booklet,
on the website, or something else--sometimes people need to actually see/hear
it. It's dangerous to assume that just because people are smart, they know how
to behave and how to be respectful to others.

2) I only have experience at the big 2 in Vegas, but thought the staff were
trained on such... Don't know. I agree, though, that having them trained to be
responsive would be a huge help.

3) Yes. I actually (unfortunately) had the opportunity to do as much this
year. I know people I was with would be more than willing to step in as well.
But, again, perhaps it would help for everyone to know that they can be on the
lookout for this behavior and step in/get help when necessary. We can't just
assume that people will do the right thing, either.

Thank _you_ for the well though-out response. I very much hope that in the
future your con experiences improve dramatically regardless of what makes that
happen.

------
enneff
I had a strange experience that when I signed in to HOPE9 at the "Department
of Hopeland Security," this year.

Following the "homeland security" theme, a man and a woman made a couple of
weak jokes about a "pat down," which I kinda laughed at, and then the woman
came up to me and actually started patting me down. It was clearly a joke, but
it was a violation of my personal space and it made me feel pretty
uncomfortable. (At least at the airport they ask for your permission!) This
was the first thing I experienced walking into an unfamiliar environment full
of unfamiliar people. I was so shocked that I didn't say anything.

If this kind of thing happens to men (like me), I'm not surprised that Valerie
and other women are hesitant to attend these conferences.

~~~
ricardobeat
Pat-downs are pretty standard in public events and totally fine for security.
You know exactly who checked you if anything goes wrong, and he is hanging by
a paycheck.

~~~
enneff
It was not a security pat down. It was a badly made joke that involved someone
touching me without my consent.

------
peterwwillis
You know _why_ no one will ever take this blog post seriously? It's about
_DEFCON_.

Those that have not been, let me sum up what the conference is about. It's in
Las Vegas. The general attitude is that you should be drunk 24/7. Most of the
attendees are horny losers who wish they could come up with talks like
"hacking gender" and "cable modem hacking". The weekend becomes a blur, and
you just hope you're sober enough to make your flight home. And something
about security talks.

Those of you that have been, and didn't just go to talks and sit in their
hotel room, know what i'm talking about. Mardi Gras for nerds, toned down a
bit, with something like 5% female attendance.

If you want to combat sexism in your industry and at your conferences, you
probably need more organizations like Ada Initiative. But it's not going to do
a god damn bit of difference about DEF CON. This whole piece hinges on the
idea that there's one "worst" offender, and if we can just get them all to
play nice, feminism will reign and no woman will ever be victimized at a
conference again.

Wake up.

Sexism is a big, big problem, all over the globe, in many different
communities. I can quote you about 10 different stories of women being
harassed in the general vicinity of where I live. I don't need to tell you
about a woman who was groped at a bar, because quite frankly, nobody is going
to do shit about it. If I wrote a blog post about that bar, _still_ nobody
would do anything about it.

Calling out one conference and making this thinly veiled assertion that all
conferences are just like it is not only deceptive, it's blatantly
misrepresenting the community surrounding the conferences.

Women are the most aware people about the power of sex in culture. They are
born with people looking at them different, and depending on their lot in
life, will experience both degradation and achievement all based on
circumstance. The idea that a woman could write an article like this with _no
idea_ that occasionally a drunken man will make a pass at them is
preposterous. Therefore I can only assume it's written specifically to start a
kind of cultural flame war with the intent being to bring more attention and
resources to their organization's cause.

In short: Using DEF CON as a model for sexism at all conferences is the most
ridiculous thing i've ever read.

~~~
pbiggar
I didn't read the article as saying DEF CON was the same as all other
conferences. I read the opposite: that DEF CON is the worst, but the "hacker"
niche of conferences are all pretty bad.

And you are wrong about whether DEF CON will be a hold-out of sexism. It might
be the last holdout, but if and when gender equality becomes widespread across
the US technical community, it's easy to see that no sexism could holdout in
any popular venue. At the very least, the sponsors would run away.

Finally, this:

> The idea that a woman could write an article like this with no idea that
> occasionally a drunken man will make a pass at them is preposterous.
> Therefore I can only assume it's written specifically to start a kind of
> cultural flame war with the intent being to bring more attention and
> resources to their organization's cause.

That is quite the accusation, with not even the flimsiest of supporting
evidence.

------
rdl
I didn't notice any sexual harassment this year at either BSidesLV (where I
was on the security team both days, and where one of the main organizers is a
woman) or at Defcon (although the in-your-face Chippendales posters all over
the hotel were annoying). Nor at HOPE. Other than at Bsides, I wasn't actively
seeking out bad behavior either, but it wasn't in-your-face if it did exist.
(One speaker at Defcon used a James Bond movie hook in a talk about trusted
platforms, with "don't get hacked, win the money, and get the girl", but I
wouldn't consider that particularly inappropriate -- that it was James Bond
makes it less bad than if it were a generic "don't get hacked, get laid"
reference.)

Compared to Defcon 1-13, which had pretty pervasive sexual harassment. (Plus
more public drunkenness and drug use, too). I was in Iraq during 14-18, so I
can't really comment on those.

(This year, at an after-Defcon party on Sunday, the only obnoxiously drunk
harassing person I encountered was female, too. That's probably not an
improvement for society.)

I do kind of hate how people-with-kids now bring their children to Defcon, and
the general push to turn it into "hacker disneyland" (with NSA recruiting
there, various "Defcon kids" programs, etc.). I don't think that's related to
less sexual harassment, just with the thing being bigger and a lot of
participants now being old.

USENIX Security, IETF, and Nanog seem to be the best overall blend of "non-
offensive atmosphere", "actual technical content", and smart/interesting
people. There's probably a role for something cheaper and similar, maybe an
extension of BSides, since as an individual, I'm a lot more willing to pay
$100-200 for a conference than $1500-2500.

~~~
selenamarie
It's heartening to hear that. I was a *nix security researcher and admin in
the late-90s, and attended DEFCON 8 with a group of men. I never went back on
my own.

An organizer's support for kdotcdot's cards makes me want to go to DEFCON next
year.

~~~
rdl
Unless you go to really sketchy private parties in people's hotel rooms,
you're probably better off at Defcon overall now than in Vegas otherwise.
(Also, I strongly suggest the majority of inappropriate behavior is by the
younger attendees; most of the people who have been going to Defcon since the
AP or earlier are now in their 30s, many married/kids, have real jobs which
mean they have something to lose if they behave badly at a professional event,
etc.)

~~~
selenamarie
Thanks! :)

I'm thinking next year will be the year I attend conferences for fun, rather
than just work. I put it on my calendar.

~~~
rdl
Go to BSides near your home town, too, if it exists. Fun and volunteer-run,
and thus close to free ($15).

------
gatordan
This article is about a call to action to end sexual assault and harassment
against women. It's really disappointing that the majority of comments that
have followed are about how things really aren't THAT bad (as a man), or that
women should expect this from a bunch of lonely guys, or that hey it happens
to men too. I know some of these commenters are are well meaning, but this
article isn't about you. The comments miss the point and completely undermine
the author with their male centered narrative.

So next time you read about a minority group creating something exclusive to
their gender, race (like Black Girls Code), or religion, remember this thread
of comments. Because I bet you're first instinct will be to say "the solution
is not to divide us into separate groups!". But until you start listening,
internalizing, and cultivating those minority voices rather than dismissing
them or displacing them with your own, those people are going to keep dropping
out, showing up small numbers, or start making their own exclusive
conferences/coding groups/fill-in-the-blank.

~~~
belorn
Articles like this are declaring issues in existing communities. This make it
natural for members in those communities to create opinions and question when
listening, internalizing, and cultivating the issues brought forth. Some of
those opinions will be of the type "Is this issue, compared to all other form
of issues already identified in the community, significant different that it
need a imminent and unique reaction?".

Hackers/programers/scientists/problem solvers is also extremely, to the point
of obsession, interested in identify root issues when talking about problems.
To find root issues, one need to ask questions, like are there similar issues
like this one? Are they caused by the same problem? What suggested fixes are
there? are those proven to work? whats does the number says, do they show a
trend? are there sources that back up what people experience? How can we
eliminate research and political biases? are there additional factors involved
like relative risk, risk assessment and risk aversion?

Denying those questions and asking the community to accept the issues as
facts, immune against research and question, and just shut-up and follow any
suggested fixes it gets, is wrong. Just simply wrong. Maybe that will result
in people dropping out, showing up in small numbers, or who starts making
their own exclusive conferences/coding groups/fill-in-the-blank. Maybe. But
maybe the better way is to ask the questions and find the answers?

~~~
makomk
> Hackers/programers/scientists/problem solvers is also extremely, to the
> point of obsession, interested in identify root issues when talking about
> problems. To find root issues, one need to ask questions, like are there
> similar issues like this one? Are they caused by the same problem? What
> suggested fixes are there? are those proven to work? whats does the number
> says, do they show a trend?

Well, there's your problem. From what I can tell asking those questions is
considered anti-feminist and evidence of misogyny. For instance, just to pick
one example, there are various studies showing that an impressive proportion
of men actually admit to raping women. These get used as evidence of a rape
culture in which men _specifically_ \- not just society as a whole, but men
and men alone - consider it acceptable and normal to rape women. Now, since
the studies in question didn't ask women whether they committed rape, they
actually give you zero information about whether this is something that men do
or something that everyone does. They're still used as ammunition to accuse
anyone who treats rape as more gender-neutral of hating women and denying its
tuge gendered nature. Meanwhile, the studies that would actually be required
to test this - ones which make no up-front assumption and ask both men and
women the same questions - don't exist, because even posing the question of
whether women rape others in this way makes you a misogynist and is apparently
a really bad career move. The same happens in a whole bunch of topics around
rape, domestic violence, sexual assault, prostitution/sex work, ...

You cannot uphold anything resembling the scientific method in this climate.
It's impossible.

~~~
gatordan
This is flat out ignorant. Is it "impossible" to google for credible studies
about sexual assault. Like this popular one from 2010 by the CDC that
interviewed 16,000 people (including 7,400 men) and found that 18% of women
and 1% of men had been raped or had someone attempt to rape them. So to take
the point home, you don't have to believe in a "rape culture", but just know
that if you have a wife, mom, grandmother, daughter, and aunt chances are
(according the CDC) that one of them will be raped or have to fight off an
attempted rape in their lifetime.

<http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/NISVS/index.html>

------
dillona
If you're actually serious about security, the answer could be simply: don't
attend DEFCON.

The quality is laughable, and in my opinion it is more of an "alternative
lifestyle" conference than a "hacker" conference. The joke around my friends
is "Wait....DEFCON has talks?" The best (or only good in my opinion) piece of
DEFCON is CTF, though, which I would highly encourage everyone to try out.
It's an incredible learning experience and a lot of fun.

Infiltrate in Miami is probably the best conference. Black Hat can be very
good too. Personally I'm planning on going to DerbyCon this fall.

------
wetzler
I'm really surprised by the number of "what did the women expect??" comments
in this thread, but I'm glad there are a few smart, well-spoken, good folks in
here too. Groping strangers is inappropriate in any public environment; I
can't image how it would feel for a woman at a tech conference. It's already a
weird feeling to be outnumbered by so many men. You wonder if they consider
you a part of their peer group. Getting groped by one of them would be an
obvious signal that you're not.

~~~
pbiggar
I went to a couple of "Women in technology" meetings, where I was often
outnumbered 5-to-1. It's terrifying. I can't imagine the idea of going to a
place where I'm so outnumbered, and also having the possibility of being
groped.

Frankly, I'm amazed the police aren't called more. Groping - or "sexual
assault" as it's more commonly called - is very very illegal.

~~~
belorn
I have studied in classes where I was the sole guy + 30 women (Physcology
course). I can only say, you get used to it after the first few days.

That said, any assault, be that a bottle to the head, first to the face, hand
to the groin, or foot to the torso, should be reported.

------
Claudus
I just spent the past week in Las Vegas for my 15th DEFCON, I'm male.

The conference has so many different aspects, it really is better to break it
into components, talks during the day, chill-out areas, CTF room,
hardware/lockpicking villages, public/private night parties, hanging out at
the bars all night, etc.

Here are some of my observations (for better or worse):

* If you're a woman, expect to get hit on dozens of times to varying degrees.

* Some people are drunk during the day, most people are drunk during the night.

* DEFCON attendees tend to be the personality types that make their own rules, and aren't well integrated socially.

* There are some (very few) attendees that seem to have mental problems, don't understand boundaries, and will do very inappropriate things; at least a few are usually banned or kicked out of the hotel or conference each year.

* I chatted with a cigarette girl in the Rio at one point, and asked her if she had been harassed a lot by DEFCON attendees, and she quantified it as, "Not really that badly (in comparison to other events)".

* Small private parties at night can get wildly inappropriate (these are not official DEFCON events, they are private parties hosted by attendees), you'll find naked people in pools at least a dozen times during the con, at least 2 or 3 instances of people engaging in some form of sexual intercourse, strippers, porn playing on a display in the corner, drugs, prostitutes (seemingly not having much success), etc.

This behavior is perpetrated by both male and female attendees, and in fact
the average female attendee is worse than the average male attendee in my
experience; although, women being in a great minority, you're much more likely
to be on the receiving end of inappropriate behavior as a woman.

I had one girl tell me she comes to DEFCON just to meet guys, and said, "I get
to have sex with any guy here I want".

This year alone I had female attendees I didn't know, or just met, slap me on
the ass several times, had 2 drunk girls walk up and kiss my cheek, had my
nipple tweaked once, had my crotch bumped/groped/etc. 3 times, and had a
random assortment of other harassing behavior directed towards me (all of this
was at night during the parties).

My friend was wearing a kilt, and at one point had a girl stop him to stick
her head under the kilt so her friend could take a picture, and then followed
it up by grabbing at his crotch while she was down there (in this instance the
girls weren't DEFCON attendees, just random drunk women in a casino).

CONCLUSION?

* If you avoid the late night (especially unofficial) parties, bars, and drunken events in general, you are going to avoid most of the inappropriate (and worst) behavior.

* Female attendees will get hit on multiple times by lonely nerdy guys, I really don't know what to say about this, but if you stick to the actual convention, you probably won't endure much worse than bad pickup lines.

* DEFCON has the weirdest, smartest, oddly intense mixture of people I've ever met that mostly come to go completely insane and push boundaries of all kinds... It does have negatives, but the experience is something I look forward to all year long.

~~~
pbiggar
> * If you avoid the late night (especially unofficial) parties, bars, and
> drunken events in general, you are going to avoid most of the inappropriate
> (and worst) behavior. > * Female attendees will get hit on multiple times by
> lonely nerdy guys, I really don't know what to say about this, but if you
> stick to the actual convention, you probably won't endure much worse than
> bad pickup lines.

Is this not the complaint - that you can't take part in your culture's events
because of the behaviour of others? I would find it intolerable if all the
other attendees went off to the last night parties and bars, and I couldn't
because I was likely to be sexually assaulted.

~~~
Claudus
Sure you can take part in them, but if you go to an invitation-only private
party at 2 AM held at a separate hotel that less than 1% of the conference can
actually get into and is thrown for the sole purpose of getting people drunk
and doing inappropriate things, you shouldn't be surprised if there is some
random inappropriate behavior, that's kind of the point.

And just to be clear, this is not gender specific harassment, as a male I
would have preferred not to have experienced any of the following:

* Random drunk guy at a party suggesting that everyone sitting around a table playing black-jack instead play strip-poker, and being ignored until he tried to lean against a lamp and fell over with it.

* Naked people jumping into a pool, splashing me, and attempting to start a minor orgy.

* Walking into a room at a party where 2 guys and a girl were laying on a bed giggling at male/female pornography.

* Being groped by random men and women who half the time weren't actually trying to molest me, they were just too drunk to stand up straight.

* Having random women suggest that I should ask to see their breasts.

* etc.

But in the end, it doesn't really bother me, and I'm glad that those people
had a chance to cut loose and get crazy. I've been to Las Vegas 20 to 30
times, and I've experienced far more inappropriate behavior outside of DEFCON
than I have at the convention.

I was at a dozen or so different parties over 5 nights, and excepting a few of
the small room parties, things were far tamer than standard Las Vegas fare.

I don't think I've met the author of the article, but if she stormed out of
DEFCON 16, I'm curious to know why she was organizing the TCP/IP Drinking Game
for DEFCON 18...

[http://blog.valerieaurora.org/2008/07/27/what-is-the-val-
up-...](http://blog.valerieaurora.org/2008/07/27/what-is-the-val-up-to/)

There is a lot of drama that goes on at DEFCON, and I wouldn't be surprised to
find out there's quite a bit more going on here.

I feel like the underlying complaint here is more along the lines of: "Some
people want to go to Las Vegas, get drunk, leer at strippers, and call
themselves elite. I disapprove of this type of behavior, and I am going to
assert that as a woman I feel excluded, and in being excluded I am somehow
being blocked from some theoretical opportunity in life that is only available
under these conditions that I don't want to find myself in, I'd also like to
write an article misrepresenting the issue for my amusement, and the status I
may also gain from said article..."

And honestly, as long as you don't get naked and jump into a pool, you're
probably pretty safe from sexual assault (as a woman at least). Women at
DEFCON can generally take care of themselves, and some random groper is likely
to get a beat-down from his victim.

In fact, the mysterious perpetrator at the bar disappearing into the crowd
seems a little conveniently vague... and if it did indeed happen, and was at
one of the Casino bars, there's a good chance it was done by a random tourist,
since people see oddly dressed DEFCON attendees and think it's okay to grab
their ass, etc.

In fact, the only sexual assault I saw this year was by drunk female tourists
who decided it was okay to randomly grope men and women because they were
wearing a kilt, had a mohawk, etc.

~~~
valerietai
Just correcting a minor math error... DEFCON 16 was in 2008.

------
alwaysinshade
Reading the anecdotes in the article (crotch grabbing, asking a girl to flash
her breasts etc) you have to wonder whether this sort of behaviour would be
prevalent at hacker events simply because black-hats by their very nature tend
to be opportunistic and seek exploits both in the digital realm and the
physical. I'm sure social retardedness plays a part but I suspect many of the
individuals who carried out these acts knew exactly what they were getting up
to.

------
rachelbythebay
Here's one approach I've never seen. Assume that a good quantity of the guys
at such a conference enjoy the company of women. They would prefer to have an
event with at least some of us around, as opposed to the total sausage fest it
would otherwise be. (Obviously, some guys enjoy the 'fest, and that's cool
too. But I'm not talking about them.)

Anyway, it seems like a simple cost-benefit analysis. If you stop being
annoying, and stop other people from being annoying, whether by shunning the
bad ones, or by whatever means you use to thin out the herd, you create a more
welcoming environment.

Once you have a more welcoming environment, there may be more of us around.
That's more opportunities to hang out with folks who you find pleasing.

So, if you want ANY chance to have a nice friendly chat which MIGHT go
somewhere some day, you have to start with having established the basics of
human decency, dignity, and respect. Otherwise, you're doomed from the get-go.

I write this speaking from a little experience. I've stopped going to certain
events here in the Valley where all I wanted was to nerd out for a little
while with other technical folks and it turned into a "how quickly can I hit
on you" thing.

------
iuguy
I sincerely hope at 44Con that we never see behaviour like that described.
We're big adopters of the "Don't be a dick" rule, and "Don't take pictures of
people who don't want pictures taken" but that's pretty much as far as it
goes.

Discrimination on gender or race is something we'd take very seriously and
kick people out for. If we were ever at the point we needed coloured cards I
think I'd cry a little on the inside.

------
smegel
Which universe exactly is this where "geeks" and "nerds" suddenly turn into
ravenous, over-confident and over-sexed pickup machines?

In my universe, and it has always been this way, whenever I go to a party the
geeks and nerds end up huddled in a corner, occasionally daring to look at a
woman, and whose social interaction bear such a close resemblance to the Big
Bang Theory that it is quite embarrassing.

Admittedly I am not from the US (maybe things are different there), but I find
this whole picture a bit hard to imagine.

~~~
Jach
I find myself asking similar questions when these stories come up. Even after
accounting for alcohol (they could force breathalyser tests at badge-pickup
time to reduce drunks inside...), it just doesn't fit very well. I suspect
it's incorrect to think that the offenders are often socially inept. In this
universe, being an "[anything] geek" is OK now. Programming and techie-ness in
general are "cool". While it has resulted in less bullying for the nerds, the
tradeoff is that techies and the like no longer fit into a small range of
human personalities, which conveniently explains why the more mono-personality
conventions of old were more respectful. The personalities now more closely
represent society as a whole, which is filled with ravenous, over-confident,
and over-sexed pickup machines. Indeed, the types of behaviors reported sound
a lot more like the work of college fraternity bros than any of the privacy-
loving/shy/asexual/low-libido/antisocial/"socially inept"/functionally-
autistic/egalitarian nerds (who rarely go to conventions (let alone the after-
parties) in the first place because crowds!) that were previously what made up
a great percentage of the tech population.

------
gadders
There used to be a website with dating tips for learning-disabled people (ask
permission, don't touch inappropriately etc). It sounds like someone should
run a session on it at DefCon.

------
vishaldpatel
Someone should post this on the Defcon forums.

------
aortega
Those cards are the stupidest idea that I ever heard. This woman is
complaining for being harrased in a place where 10000 men from 15-50 are
constantly drunk, really. And the answer is giving out colored cards? nature
forces can't be controlled with cards.

~~~
rdl
I agree that the cards are a pretty ineffective way of dealing with the
problem at events. They're only effective for people who don't know they're
doing something inappropriate, but do care when told. I think that's a very
small percentage of offensive people.

Selfishly, I care more about getting the (admittedly very small number of)
hacker females to attend and contribute to events more than unrestrained free
speech by attendees. If kicking out a few obnoxious drunken guys, and
convincing others to behave reasonably, is necessary, fine. That seems a lot
more effective than cards handed out by attendees. Naming and shaming people
who act like idiots would also be effective I suppose, but probably more
potentially open to drama and consequences than quietly ejecting them for the
rest of the event.

~~~
britta
There's something interesting about these cards - they're helping DEFCON
people adopt a usable vocabulary for talking about harassment, an addition to
our jargon.

Here's an example. A few days ago I was part of a Rio elevator full of DEFCON
people when it stopped at a floor where a non-attendee woman was looking to
get in. There was obviously no room inside, but one of the guys hollered at
her to "get in anyway - you're a cute woman - we love women - this ratio needs
to be improved!" She instantly disappeared. As the elevator door closed,
another guy looked at him and said "dude, yellow card." Silence the rest of
the way down.

It's a small thing, but I was the one DEFCON woman in the elevator, and I
appreciated that verbal yellow card - in other words, while I was in the
middle of mentally processing what had just happened and whether creepy
attention would shift to me, a fellow attendee had quickly and effectively
reset the tone of the elevator to basic civility. This is good.

~~~
selenamarie
Thanks for sharing this story! :)

