
AI predicts effective depression treatment based on brainwave patterns - Nettles
https://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2020/06/24/ai-predicts-effective-depression-treatment-based-on-brainwave-patterns/
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piker
Is there a bootstrapping problem with these types supervised of approaches?

Per the article:

"Current methods used to diagnose and treat depression are imprecise at best,
relying largely on subjective answers to survey questions..."

"... they deployed an algorithm to interpret brainwave patterns unique to
individuals with depression..."

Presumably the diagnoses of those "individuals with depression" were based on
the same imprecise subjective answers to questions. Thus, is this just
modelling the flawed diagnostic?

~~~
nabla9
On the contrary, any measurable biomarker for depression is very good news.

In psychology almost all diagnoses are just checklist of symptoms either
reported or observed. If the patient checks enough of them, they have that.
Accurate knowledge of the underlying causes and conditions or clear tests that
verify them don't usually exist.

Depression is extreme version of this, so called diagnostic trash bin.
Symptoms of depression are present in many/most other psychological and
physical diseases. If the patient shows symptoms of depression first time,
it's relatively common for doctor to order full blood panel and other tests to
rule out all other causes.

In the end, if nothing else is found and symptoms continue, all that is left
is the proverbial "trash bin". If you don't have anything else, but have
depression symptoms you are diagnosed with depression. It's not a surprise
that medicating depression is just trying different drugs semi-randomly to
find out what works.

If we can directly measure for the effectiveness of treatment, it may help to
understand how they work, what depression is, or how many different conditions
there are behind depression diagnosis.

~~~
AuryGlenz
I was put in that trash bin for a few years due to always being tired. The
only thing I was depressed about was being tired all the time. Eventually I
asked for a testosterone panel, which came back really low. That hasn’t
completely solved my issues but it would have been enough to put my life on a
completely different track.

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amelius
Somehow the term "data correlation" evolved into "AI".

~~~
ganzuul
For extremely long-range correlations you need a lot of optimization and
approximations because the problem space is so large. To navigate enormous
computational spaces in a reasonable time you need intelligence.

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dfraser992
About 15 years ago, I was in a bookstore in Palo Alto and, while browsing,
picked up a book on depression and antidepressants. What it was about, or at
least a chapter, was linking antidepressants and the areas of the brain they
were known to affect to the function of those areas and how they might be
implicated in or be a factor in depression.

I looked up what I knew of my depressive symptoms and yep, regular SSRIs were
hypothesized not to work and instead Wellbutrin was probably the better
option. It made sense to me, but I am not an expert in these things. But ...
the next psychiatrist I spoke to wanted to put me on the immediately
physically addictive Effexor, so I told him to stuff it. Psychedelics
eventually did the trick, and I should have done a lot more of them...

So I am mystified why this basic idea of tying what we know of areas of the
brain and what antidepressants affect what part seems to have not made any
impact in the treatment of depression. Brainwaves processed by AI... ok...
super cool PR but I can see a bunch of potential problems knowing what I know
about "AI". Something a bit more grounded or fundamental as in "this area of
the brain might be underactive, so let's try this medication" is perhaps more
useful or reliable.

Unfortunately, I forgot the name of that book. Anyone have any idea how to
track down it down?

~~~
chiefgeek
I've been depressed for pretty much my entire adult life (I'm 51). Ten years
of Zoloft did nothing for me. Should have quit after two. Eventually, I too,
found the magic of psychedelics, combined with meditation and extensive body
work. Therapeutic uses of MDMA, psilocybin and ayahuasca have completed
transformed my outlook and helped me unwind the trauma stored in my body. I am
very grateful. This research sounds very promising.

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aaron695
> AI predicts effective depression treatment based on brainwave patterns

I don't believe a signal thing about this.

Depression detected through brainwaves - out of this world amazing, cutting
edge breakthrough.

Knowing what sort of depression - out of this world amazing, cutting edge
breakthrough.

Knowing how to treat it - out of this world amazing, cutting edge
breakthrough.

Using "AI" \- out of this world amazing, cutting edge breakthrough.

Each of these are billion $ breakthroughs.

~~~
MaximumYComb
>>"We know that depression is very heterogenous, and that there are at least
1,000 unique combinations of symptoms that can be diagnosed as depression,"
said Williams, who is the director of Stanford's Center for Precision Mental
Health and Wellness. "We've found that brainwave measurements can be used to
help identify which particular symptoms change with antidepressant treatment
and which do not."

They're not claiming to detect depression, I don't think there is "sorts" of
depression. They're measuring a change in symptoms to evaluate a medicines
usefulness.

The headline is misleading but I do feel their work has merit. Years ago I had
an isolated Major Depressive Episode. It's clear to me that during that period
of time there was something different about my brain.

~~~
nostrebored
They're measuring a change in -- self reported -- symptoms to evaluate a
medicine's usefulness.

If SSRIs primary function is increasing indifference, a personality inventory
on sadness will still turn up as improved if the patient cares less about it.
Saying that this is a treatment of the symptom is confounding effects and
could pave the way for decades of poor science. And that's assuming that the
data is interpretable in the way that they think it is and that it's not more
akin to fMRIs.

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Uptrenda
If this works it would be quite the breakthrough. You can already get at-home
EEG devices (e.g. [https://blog.dreem.com/en/eeg-brain-
sleep/](https://blog.dreem.com/en/eeg-brain-sleep/)). Imagine being about to
download apps to these devices to detect different mental illnesses.

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kernelsanderz
This is very interesting work. My concern is that could this technology be
used to test for depression, and might employers require their workforce to be
tested, and discriminate on this basis? I guess measuring brainwaves is
relatively involved. But that was my first thought after - Wow, that's
impressive work!

~~~
elcomet
Well there are lof or other diseases that employers could require test for and
that can harm productivity. But fortunately this is forbidden by law in most
countries. So I don't think it's more an issue that it already is.

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sradman
Using EEG data as a biomarker unrelated to sleep sounds interesting. From the
paper [1]:

> At the baseline and week 8 clinic visits, the severity of the participant’s
> depressive symptoms was rated on the 21-symptom HRSD...

> In addition, electrophysiological measures were also acquired; resting-state
> EEG was recorded for 2 minutes while participants were relaxed with eyes
> closed and eyes open.

> Electroencephalograms were continuously recorded from 26 sites in 5 regions
> (frontal, temporal, central, parietal, and occipital) with a NuAmps system
> (Compumedics) and QuickCap (Compumedics). For each site, we computed
> absolute and relative band powers for the delta, theta, alpha, beta, and
> gamma bands.

[1]
[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2767367)

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aszantu
I was depressed for 17 years or so, everything I did only slightly helped
until I cut out sugar and went keto, the more carbs I cut out, the more energy
I had.

~~~
ravroid
I was depressed for 10 years. Changing diet, environment, and exercise did not
help. Psychiatric medication and therapy helped.

~~~
idclip
We are all a bit different - sugar plays a massive role here, mostly if its
synthetic. I eat or try to stick to an ayurvedic recipe which is helping alot.

~~~
ravroid
I think in my case it was the early emotional trauma and neglect that
contributed to my depression rather than diet.

~~~
tartoran
Are you feeling better now? What helped and what didnt?

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ravroid
Yes, I'm feeling much better now! 10mg of Lexapro daily and a couple of months
of therapy helped enormously.

~~~
tartoran
Good. Make sure you don’t stop taking it cold turkey.

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FailMore
Anything examining the paradigm of solving depression with antidepressants
doesn't get it. Depression is not something to be dominated and rushed away.
The dynamics that cause it for each person are filled with clues of how to
solve it and meaningful and sustainably improve that person's life.

Our minds tell us a lot, but we are terrible listeners.

~~~
mahathu
I don't disagree, but when you link a paper, I think you should disclose that
you're the sole author.

~~~
FailMore
I agree. Sorry I removed

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camillomiller
Take what we know about AI bias, apply it to this, get shivers down your
spine.

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jwraUjuJ8Yd
Technology is pretty great and solving everything through data and technology
gives good kick to programmers as well.

Is what we are building today becoming the reason for this depression ?

At the core, "having someone to talk to" would definitely help these
depressions.

~~~
ponker
A lot of depression cases are purely chemical in origin. At least 20% of
patients are 95% recovered once they find the right medication. Keep in mind
that the psychiatric definition of “depression” is quite different from the
layperson’s definition. It’s not a sadness or melancholy, it’s basically a
shutdown of almost all higher-order mental functions.

~~~
taurath
Psychiatric depression is not that - [https://www.psycom.net/depression-
definition-dsm-5-diagnosti...](https://www.psycom.net/depression-definition-
dsm-5-diagnostic-criteria/)

Having been thru it, clinically, it’s not a shutdown of mental functions. It
is more like a lens by which many of your thoughts have to pass through. Many
of those neuronal pathways still function just as well as normal.

~~~
ganzuul
Are there different definitions in different countries?

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mapcars
I found a way out of depression into bottomless joy by one of the modern
mystics and his kriya yoga practices. So from my perspective whatever AI
predicts is anyway based on modern science which does not look deep into life
processes.

~~~
camillomiller
I really would like to understand what is the thought process behind
downvoting this quiet, personal and respectful comment. Sometimes this
community really baffles me.

~~~
vertex-four
It looks an awful lot like "I know how to cure everybody's depression by Life
Hacks and all medical help is worthless", which does not square with my (or
many other people's) experiences. Being on antidepressants for a while allowed
me to turn my life around.

~~~
mapcars
I can elaborate on that, see depression is caused by you in the end, not by
circumstances (which may steer you in the direction, but finally you "do" it).
See what they do in yoga is they know how to change chemistry in your body in
a more natural and balanced way than antidepressants.

It's the same approach but much more subtle than modern medicine can do, and
I'm not saying medical thing is worthless - it is super helpful with more
"physical" cases, what is called depression, anxiety, stress just involves
more aspects. One thing about external chemicals (antidepressants in this
case) is you may become addicted to them in many ways, while in yoga it's your
own body which is doing the whole thing.

> which does not square with my (or many other people's) experiences

Well I can also show you many other people who feel the same about kriya yoga.
Unless you try it you can't know.

About "Life Hacks" \- what medicine is doing today 100 years people would see
it as life hacks. Just that you are not comfortable with an idea that someone
understands things well beyond your imagination. But what to do, if it works?

~~~
luckylion
This sounds like you're mistaking depression for "feeling a bit down lately".
"Hey, just realize how great your life is" \- "Oh, wow, thanks, I'm cured".

> Unless you try it you can't know.

Yeah, the same is true for curing cancer by eating nothing but cucumbers for a
year. Unless you try it, you can't know.

~~~
mapcars
> "Hey, just realize how great your life is"

In a way this is how it is, except not in words nor in your imagination,
rather in a real experience of oneness with whole rest of the Universe where
every cell in your body explodes with ecstasy. If it happens to you even for a
moment you will never see depression (with any of it's grades) ever again.
Sounds too good to be true? Well again, if it works it doesn't matter how it
sounds.

> Yeah, the same is true for curing cancer by eating nothing but cucumbers for
> a year. Unless you try it, you can't know.

That is, if you are interested in genuine knowledge. If you want superficial
knowledge to show off with your friends - you can read some books or talk to
some people. Reality is only known by direct experience.

~~~
vertex-four
"Every cell in your body explodes with ecstasy" is not a description of
anything which has ever been seen in a human. I'm certain you would be dead if
every cell in your body exploded - I know this because I have seen case
studies where many fewer than "every" cell in a body exploded, and the people
died. Can you please explain what you mean in, y'know, terms that are
scientifically believable?

>> Yeah, the same is true for curing cancer by eating nothing but cucumbers
for a year. Unless you try it, you can't know.

> That is, if you are interested in genuine knowledge.

So you would refuse cancer treatment that has been shown to work, and instead
you would eat cucumbers for a year, because you refuse the evidence that this
does not in fact treat cancer?

~~~
mapcars
Why would I refuse cancer treatment? What evidence there is against cucumbers
diet?

