
Ask HN: Is humanity going towards vegetarianism? - ainiriand
From a neutral observer point of view it would look like there are more and more vegetarians and vegetarian food in the supermarkets. Certainly this is true only for a small subset of the western world. Why do you think is this happening?
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apohn
At least in North America, one thing I have seen is an increasing number of
restaurants that have a vegetarian option that is decent. In the past it was
always just a regular meat dish minus the meat, but it costs the same. Or
worse, take a dish that gets most of it's flavor from the meat and then
substitute tofu or some basic (e.g. carrots/potatoes) boiled/steamed
vegetables, making a dish that is extremely bland. It's not a surprise that
lots of people cannot even fathom how anybody could be vegetarian.

It seems to me that thanks to immigrants, fusion food, and cuisine from
countries like India, people are starting to realize that you can add spices
and flavors to any cuisine and make these dishes tasty without meat. In this
way you have dishes that everybody can eat without feeling like the vegetarian
options at restaurants are horrible. Instead, they can see something on a menu
that actually looks appetizing and be willing to try it. There are more
choices than just a meat-substitute.

Note that I'm referring at non-chain restaurants in more populated areas, or
newer or smaller-chains. The large chains still think a baked potato with
cheese is a vegetarian entree.

I also think that a lot of times vegetarian/vegan American food has been
synonymous with things like raw, super-healthy, vegetable smoothies, etc. So
it's bland and basically only for people who specifically want that kind of
food. Even that changing, and you can find 100% vegetarian restaurants with
food that is fried, has salt/sugar/spices, and is just generally super tasty
while not being that healthy. Basically, the reason why I like to eat out in
the first place :)

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nabla9
* It's not a necessity in a modern world. You can just choose to receive as good proteins other ways.

* Carbon footprint of the animal products is significant. It's roughly equal to cars.

* Question about animal suffering and treatment in when eating mass produced meat. Cheap meat comes from mistreating animals. Equating human cognition with the consciousness that is able to suffer does not seem like solid argument. There is 'naturalness' argument but it's not solid moral argument.

* Meat versus 'meat'. On the other hand it's ecologically good to eat highly processed meat (as much of the animal is used as possible) including pink slime, sinew and chicken skin that most people eat as meat, but on the other had it's not exactly meat.

* Proud carnivores realize that they are actually scavengers at the meat market. Hunters and fishers may reduce their meat eating because they prefer to actually eat things they catch themselves. There is no social status in eating meat as it used to be.

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hackerman12345
Emissions footprint is being improved every day - you might remember an
article from a month ago discussing that giving seaweed to cows reduces their
emissions by a huge amount.

If everyone went veg, we would need more farms right? How many more field
mice/rabbits/snakes/whatever will suffer/get squashed from this? Is this
number comparable to the amount of cows that suffer for steak? It seems like
smaller creatures treatment never get considered.

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ianleeclark
> If everyone went veg, we would need more farms right?

No, cows eat too. Think about it this way: to get 1000 calories worth of
energy from a cow, that cow has to consume more than 1000 calories due to
maintenance (BMR) alone. Moreover, one acre of land producing soybeans, rice,
or legumes _much_ more protein and _much_ more calories per year:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_protein_per_unit_area_o...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_protein_per_unit_area_of_land)

> How many more field mice/rabbits/snakes/whatever will suffer/get squashed
> from this?

Fewer as shown from the previous point proving that we could feed more people
on less acreage of land

> Is this number comparable to the amount of cows that suffer for steak?

No, it's smaller and we get to cut out the cool parts like raping cows to
produce milk and then ripping their children away from them.

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hackerman12345
According to:
[https://www.nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/sp/sp_ne153.pdf](https://www.nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/sp/sp_ne153.pdf)

it is not smaller. 12 mice per acre average. That's a lot more animal lives
being ruined per acre IMO - and that's just the mice.

If you want to convince people of your cause, you need to be willing to be
honest about the pros and cons instead of going for an emotional argument.

~~~
ianleeclark
It's not an emotional argument, if a vegan diet requires 1/10th of the
acreage, then it requires 12 dead mice as opposed to the 120 dead mice +
_whatever animals you're eating_ of the meat-eating diet.

A meat eating diet inherently requires more acreage due to thermodynamics. It
works like this: 20 acres of grain feeds 10 cows which feeds 1 person for a
year, therefore 240 dead mice and 10 dead cows. An omnivore's diet inherently
requires more acreage, therefore more dead mice and all the cows, chicken,
fish, &c. you're eating.

~~~
hackerman12345
I think the mice can usually run out of a way of a cow slowly grazing along
pasture.

~~~
ianleeclark
it's not just cows grazing on grass--78% of cows in the us are factory farmed,
and 97% are grain fed which means they're force fed cheap grain to fatten them
up for slaughter. Moreover, only 3% of cattle can be considered grass fed,
and, for those cattle, we're deforesting the amazon rainforest--so probably
more than your 12 mice.

If you want to throw global warming on top of it, your lifestyle will
contribute to the mass Exodus (and most likely death) of millions to billions
from the global south.

It's kinda ironic you said I'm arguing from emotion, but all it took for you
to be complicit in rape, torture, and slaughter is a smiling cow on the side
of a fucking cheese package.

~~~
hackerman12345
Wait until you read about how animals treat each other, and you'll pretty much
think we are angels (obviously factory farms and what not are bad).

And before you say "yea but I choose to not contribute to their suffering",
well what does that matter? You're still standing by while innocent creatures
have all those things done to them by other creatures.

Aren't they entitled to not be tortured and slaughtered as well? Or does it
just not matter if you're not the one doing it?

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thiago_fm
I'm vegetarian, I've turned a few years ago, when I've moved to Berlin, a city
with a lot of vegetarian options everywhere, also full of vegetarians(and
vegans).

Before, I lived in a third world country called Brazil. There, it's mandatory
you eat meat. And it's very very tasty. I used to eat A LOT of meat there.

In Germany(Berlin), meat is very expensive. Well, at least good meat, like I
used to. If I wanted to eat the same amount of meat, I probably would spend
thousand of euros a month to eat the same quality/kind of meat.

So we started to eat tofu and vegetarian food and discovered it is tasty as
well, but then you need to add some nice sauce and cook it well, instead of
just frying some meat.

I think factors like the one I've mentioned could be a reason. A city with a
lot of vegetarian restaurants, will make you eventually go into one of them
and see the food is tasty, then you start to play with the idea, then you
change and see no difference... apart that you don't eat animals anymore.

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superasn
I can't speak for others but yes personally I've started reducing meat and
added veg.

I think my shift came after reading "How not to die"[1]. This book has a lot
of scientific info about the benefits of veg diet over non veg and it really
changed my perception of food and nutrition and the effect of all dieseases
being caused by bad food choices.

[1]
[https://www.google.com/search?q=How+not+to+die&oq=How+not+to...](https://www.google.com/search?q=How+not+to+die&oq=How+not+to+die)

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socrates1998
No, not really. I think more people see the value in not eating meat every
day, which I think is a good thing, both for your health and the environment.

Going completely away from meat for the long term, isn't ideal for your health
(for most people) and so I don't think it's going to become very popular.

This along with meat being such a big part of culture on top of the health
component means meat will stay around for the forseeable future.

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yoz-y
I think human society tend to get more tolerant over time (at a large scale).
Recent and not so recent events such as acceptance of marriage for everyone,
fight for gender equality and so on. Clearly there is a long way to go but
eventually, when human problems are resolved people will probably turn their
focus on animals as well.

The process is slow and may take centuries but I think we'll get there.

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40acres
I don't think so. In the western world I wouldn't be shocked if the numbers
have crept up in the past few decades and will continue to do so -- but there
are billions of people in the non western world and others who just prefer
meat. Meat is obviously a huge part of food culture and I don't see that
changing drastically soon.

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onion2k
Meat is much more expensive than vegetables. Wage stagnation and increased
housing costs mean people don't buy meat as much.

~~~
dagw
_Meat is much more expensive than vegetables._

Perhaps in aggregate, but there are a lot of vegetables that cost a lot more
than a lot of meat.

Locally raised steak is more expensive than potatoes. Imported low quality
pork is a lot cheaper than locally grown asparagus.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Likewise, the quality of the produce varies quite a lot. It wasn't until I
started growing my own cucumbers and I noticed that they stayed fresh a _lot_
longer than the store bought variety that I realized that a cucumber I bought
in the store was probably already at least a month old.

There's not much that costs less than potatoes, though. They are so cheap, it
amazes me that farmers can make money on them.

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bsvalley
I think businesses adapt to the demand and a lot of people get influenced by a
bunch of various diets these days. Migration of people around the world
(different cultures) and the fact that we have access to more data (Internet,
etc.), probably explain why this is happening.

~~~
ainiriand
Do you think that people that become vegetarians in their lives plus the ones
born in vegetarian families are gonna be more people combined than meat eaters
eventually?

~~~
bsvalley
I believe so, the number of vegetarians will certainly increase in the future
due to the awareness. Though, might no be true that the whole world will turn
vegeterian in thousands or millions of years from now. Unless meat disappears.

~~~
ainiriand
I think the same. I ate meat for for 33 years but I changed so I think that if
the change is there maybe the humanity is gonna move that direction.

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gaspoweredcat
im vegetarian, but not by choice, i cant say i advocate it nor can i see why
people would willingly restrict their diet so much

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thorin
I'd say you are wrong. Where are you looking? For instance in India a lot of
people mainly eat vegetarian, but that has always been the case. In the west
outside of the well off left wing most people eat more meat than ever. Look at
fast food and cheap restaurants which most (esp poorer people) aspire to eat.
Breakfasts are often meat heavy and McDonald's, KFC, etc etc are mainly
churning out cheap low quality meat products. Personally, it's the more well
off and better educated people I know who are reducing the meat in their diet
and thinking about food sourcing.

~~~
ainiriand
Well, maybe I'm wrong but the trend is there and if the low end restaurants
have vegetarian options now that certainly mean something.

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ergothus
I've been a vegetarian for a bit over a decade. (Ovo-lacto, not pescatarian,
so I'll eat dairy and eggs but not fish) insects are undecided, but I try to
avoid foods that would force a decision (good bye, junior mints). I try to pay
attention to labels, but when eating out will often go for the basics. (If
they offer a veggie burger, I won't try to find out if the cheese used animal-
rennet, and I'm sure there has been lots of sugar bleached with animal bones)

I think I'm a decent example as I loved the taste of meats and wasn't (and
still am not) into many veggies outside of basic staples. A kale and quinoa
sandwich with sprouts and bell peppers with fresh tomato sounds like a
wonderful thing...for some other than me to eat. My family has lots of
fishermen and hunters, so meat was an unquestioned norm while growing up.

For me the cause was empathy...if I couldn't kill the animal because of
emotions, why is it okay to make others do it? The various other logics of
sustainability didn't hurt, but that was the deciding issue. I think that will
resonate with people in the future who do switch, but I dont think it will
particularly convince anyone TO switch.

I tried cold-turkey (awkward word choice) but found I was seeing stars
constantly after a few months. (My guess is that my college go-to's of ramen
and mac and cheese weren't a full nutritional load) After that I returned to
meat eating, but I had lost the taste for red meat - it now just tasted oily
and gross. After a few years I noticed that my tastes had slightly expanded
(salad bars were still full of things I disliked, but lettuce itself was now
okay). I started dropping a meat category each year (pork, turkey, chicken,
seafood) to allow me time to find the right substitutes. I completed the list
10+ years ago and I've not had particular troubles, though I use a lot of meat
substitutes while cooking.

Eating out and shopping have become easier over time, but only gradually -
finding a vegetarian meal that doesn't assume you want ALL THE VEGETABLES is
hard at the average place, and people dont all define vegetarian the same way
(Indians seem to share my norm, but Chinese and Japanese use oyster and fish
sauces in the "vegetarian" foods all the time, Thai is a toss up on that, plus
it is hard to know if their curry paste is shrimp based, and Americans often
seem to think every vegetarian eats fish, particularly in some regions. Plus
the US south uses pork as a seasoning - a good portion of the vegetable sides
menu at, say, Cracker Barrel is non vegetarian.

So while I think vegetarian will become the norm...I dont think it is on the
cusp of being the norm. Plus vat-grown meat could totally change the equation,
though it still has a long way to go. For now though, the gradual increase
I've seen since the 80s has continued, and meat eaters vilify it less often
because more of us are vegetarian WITHOUT trying to shame/blame other people
for their choices/scenarios.

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sudoaza
not me

