
I feel I am building a new Google Wave - cheshirecat
http://pivory.com/#topic/1/0
======
creamyhorror
I love this. I love the deliciously clean design, the immediate type-and-post
functionality (reminiscent of IRC), the loose feel and structure of the forum
that makes it a wonderful base for customisation in any aspect. I wish this
were in Ruby/Rails; then I'd set it up on my site. It's precisely the sort of
forum I've been looking to implement, especially the two-column format and the
IRC-style text entry box.

(I wonder how I could get it to interface with a Rails app? Would there be
problems just connecting it to the app's database, to get/store user accounts
and stats, for example?)

Here's the github repo containing the open-source fork of it:
<https://github.com/cheshirecats/CuriousWall>

Thanks cheshirecat, you've done a great thing here.

~~~
cheshirecat
My pleasure. It is very relieving to see people actually like it.

~~~
muyuu
Well done. Made a user, and I hope to be contributing to your site, especially
if you finish that dump procedure I asked for in your site.

------
ChrisNorstrom
Magnificent. Simply wonderful. This feels like a prototype for the future of
forums. It's got its little UI flaws here and there but I understand why and
almost all of them can be fixed easily. Very nice work. So much potential.

\- There's no reason to have the scroll bar of the thread list on the left.
Hiding it unless you hover directly over it is also not a good idea. It should
appear when the mouse hovers anywhere over the entire thread list.

\- I strongly hate non-browser-native scrolling (scroll by javascript in an
effort to style the scroll bar using css and javascript). It never feels
right, or fluid. There IS a way to hide the scrollbars until the mouse hovers
over the element that requires scrolling. Example: <http://www.repcmods.com>
(abandoned prototype) (hover over the horizontal galleries) It's all done
using css :hover and no javascript. The element with the scrollbar is set to
overflow:hidden and on :hover it's set to overflow-y:auto; It may or may not
work for you. Fix everything else first before coming back to this one.

\- It's missing some white space toward the bottom making it feel really
cluttered down there. Give the #left_panel and #mid_panel elements a padding-
top:12px; and give .xpadbox a margin of margin:0 24px 5px;

\- Also give the element #mid a padding-top:9px; so its lined up correctly.
You'll have to also move up the links on in the top right of the mid panel to
match as well.

\- When posting a reply, the "preview" and "post" links should really be
buttons not just text and they should be on the left and the text "sign up to
bump, Online: 1002 users, etc..." should be on the right.

\- When I open up the setting tab in the threads list it needs to stay red so
the user knows they need to click it again to close the settings.

\- Get rid of the dashed border bottom between threads and posts. It's too
visually intrusive. Change it from dashed to dotted, instead.

\- Hiding controls under the whole "to top/toggle functions" bar is completely
unnecessary. As a young designer I used to hide a lot of elements thinking it
would look nice and minimal and clean. Later on I find out it's one of the
worst things you can do to your users. Your design is already minimal, it's
already clean, don't over do it. Just keep the elements there, don't hide
them.

There's a lot of confusing UI here but that's the end of my free consultation.

------
mcgwiz
I don't want to be misconstrued a "bad HN commenter", so I'll say first of
all, technically amazing. Also, UX is consistent and aesthetically pleasing
(though admittedly incomplete; lots of actions are unexplained... e.g. what's
the difference between Focus and Shift).

Technical and design accolades aside, IMHO I would not call this an
improvement on existing discussion forums. In Part 4 of his post "Building a
Better Online Community", he implies that a major problem is the signal to
noise ratio. This web app has not solved that problem.

The extremely low barrier to participation, while inline with privacy ethics
and democratic ethics, unfortunately removes important incentives to creating
quality content. It is however, successful at enhancing anonymity and removing
the (burdensome?) requirement of identifying oneself.

Let's take a step back and re-assess what we're looking at. It's not an
improved discussion forum, it's an improved chatroom app, plain and simple.
And for that, I credit it with certain innovation.

~~~
javajosh
I agree that it is more chat than forum, especially because of the limited
(that is, non-existent) support for threaded conversations. (The only thing I
could find was a hash-number style referral shortcut).

Personally, I also disagree with removing timestamps. Although HK (presumably
the author) is correct in that people can tend to ignore 2-year-old posts,
this is an entirely n00b tendency, as old-hands know that there is gold in
older content. That said, old-hands can very quickly filter for relevance when
hunting for _timely news_. Removing timestamps removes that facility.

~~~
sgdesign
Quick note: "HK" stands for "Hong Kong", it's not the author's name.

------
moondowner
There's a fork of Google Wave that's alive and kicking <http://rizzoma.com>

Here's a screenshot: <https://plus.google.com/100419497458726670190/posts>

Though I like Ivory's goal and aspirations.

~~~
marcamillion
Can I integrate Rizzoma in my web app? Or is it just a standalone web app?

~~~
kobzevvv
Rizzoma embedding will be ready on October. Box version and version for your
own Amazon server is going to be in March 2013

~~~
marcamillion
Cool.

------
lmirosevic
This is great, I love the feel of this and the value it creates (which I'd
describe as "live structured conversations").

Here's some suggestions, keep in mind these are essentially my personal
opinions:

-Try putting some thought into making the functionality a little more intuitive, by this I mean to try and not necessitate having to hover too much to discover functionality. As a designer I know how difficult this is to do without spoiling aesthetics, so good luck (but I think you need to do this).

-Host this as a SaaS and make money, I image businesses would love to use this as a way to gather user feedback and talk to users.

-Categories would be nice. Right now it's just one "board" (in the traditional "online forum" sense where the set hierarchy is forum>board>thread>post). I'd find it cool if I could say visit a "sports" category, or a "Tech" category, and especially a "Hacker news" one. Think subreddits.

-The "navigation" is a little unintuitive, on the left column where it says "Threads", "Lists", "Users". When in threads mode, the other modes are listed underneath it, suggesting that they form a child relationship to Threads, whereas they're really siblings.

-I'd dispense with the little arrows under "Home" on the left column, and move the refresh button onto the same line as the Create and Home links/buttons. It doesn't really add anything. Up and down could be implemented using infinite scrolling and would be more intuitive. Left and right could be replaced by making aggregating all the different views ("My threads", "Users", "Replies", etc.) into a flyout or dropdown list, accessible by hovering the currently active mode title. This would also mean you could dispense with the 3 bottons on the bottom left next to the settings button.

-Speaking of that settings button, it doesn't have much to do with searching, instead I'd move it closer to the "user button", which you don't really have but will definitely need. Opening the user pane on the right, and then clicking the username to reveal "log out", etc. isn't easy to find.

-You probably don't need all the corner hovers, they don't really do anything useful IMHO.

-Fluid layout so it works well on mobile devices

-The reading mode is cool but you probably don't need it everywhere.

Good luck, I love the idea. Hope this goes somewhere.

~~~
damncabbage

      - Host this as a SaaS and make money, I image businesses 
        would love to use this as a way to gather user feedback 
        and talk to users.
    

A little tweaking and it might make a good Campfire replacement as well. :)

(Even with a smaller team, a collection of conversational "threads" could be
really useful.)

------
Andrex
It's a very nice design, but I feel removing dates is a mistake. It may be
that older topics lose their value as time goes on, however that's a problem
that can be fixed on the community level (by encouraging people to bump old
threads, instead of discouraging it -- which is a learned behavior.) I feel
like you gain very little in reality by removing dates, and you otherwise lose
some very valuable or interesting info.

------
ricardobeat
Reminds me of the deceased oak.io[1].

Scrolling is broken (and slow) on an iPad, it's apparently using some
javascript scrolling lib that could be replaced with -webkit-overflow-
scrolling: touch;

[1] <http://blog.oak.io/>

------
davewasthere
Spent a little bit of time playing on this and really really impressed.

I've written a progressive enhanced forum (for mobile) and think there's a lot
of room for some re-thought ways how forums could work.

But!

I did find navigating around PIvory a little hard work. I definitely had to
think and discover. A lot of menu options aren't visible until you click in
certain areas. That's great from a clean-design point of view, but frustrating
for a new user.

I love the grey scheme, with the only colour being when you hover over icons.
That said, hi-lighting your posts (and leaving your image always in colour)
would be nice.

It really is an awesome effort. I'm inspired.

~~~
kobzevvv
Cool we definitely has a problem with: "A lot of menu options aren't visible
until you click in certain areas". I hope new version of interface will solve
it.

Please let me know about other inconveniences or troubles: tw: @kobzevvv fb:
<http://www.facebook.com/kobzevvv>

------
StavrosK
I have no idea what it is, but I think I like it. It feels nice.

~~~
cheshirecat
Sometimes I think it is only similar to Google Wave in the spirit of having
little points :)

I plan to use it as a blog first.

------
gwern
Hah, it's funny (Baader-Meinhof style) that I'm suddenly running into
pivory.com here on Hacker News - my first introduction to it was a few hours
earlier today as part of a little Bitcoin extortion scheme:
[https://plus.google.com/103530621949492999968/posts/5p1G9CZP...](https://plus.google.com/103530621949492999968/posts/5p1G9CZPBxR)

------
mladenkovacevic
It's great. I love the math formulas and how you can right click to get them
in different formats and change display settings. On further examination I see
that this is a function of MathJax, but great job integrating it into your
application.

------
prawn
Hi cheshirecat,

Any tactics for blocking repeat trouble makers? You mentioned blocking by IP
in your docs.

I've run a forum (1,100 posts/month) for about eight years which also allows
anonymous posting as well as accounts/avatars/etc. Users blocked by IP usually
reconnect with their ISP to get a new IP and run amok anew. I also have
blacklisted words and phrases which can stop some problems, but not all. I end
up blocking IP classes from anonymous posting to eliminate troublesome
regions.

Any plans/thoughts beyond that?

(Found your forum concept initially confusing, but I greatly admire your
effort and the thought that's gone into it. I think you've created something
intriguing!)

~~~
cheshirecat
Probably the best method is to give more power to your users and let them be
MODs - probably vote-to-exile? Yes, it could be abused just like the case of
Socrates.

But it's definitely better than blocking IP class which hurts innocent users
and useless against trolls under proxy.

~~~
prawn
I currently have two classes of moderator - one with edit/delete access, and a
lower one with the power to hide a post in a "Sin Bin" until a higher-level
moderator can judge it.

But with anonymous accounts, I need to provide greater incentive for people to
sign in - karma, etc.

Thanks for the reply.

------
tsurantino
The only real problem with this website is the navigation. I usually just get
very lost on which parts of the site I am on because there is very little of
indication of such info.

Other than that, this site seems pretty neat!

------
MojoJolo
I think I'm having some problems with scrolling. But anyways, good job!

~~~
cheshirecat
Thank you! The scrolling codes are messy and slow at the moment. I'll rebuild
them using vanilla JS. You guys are the reason I can keep working on this.

~~~
ken
I'm having problems with scrolling, too, but I'm not sure if it's a problem
with the code being slow, or that we simply don't know how to use it.

The front page says "Click page borders and user icons for functions - feel
free to experiment", but I think you need some documentation for people like
me who aren't smart enough to figure out what they do. I see different colored
rectangles and my cursor turns into a resize-top-border icon (??) and clicking
things makes other things jump around or disappear but I can't tell where I am
or what I'm doing.

A 2-minute tutorial could make the difference between "I'm confused, so I'm
leaving" and "this is pretty neat". Of course, it'd be even better if it used
controls that I already know how to use, so I didn't need to take a 2-minute
tutorial to learn to use scrollbars again. :-)

------
lis
Did not work on my iPhone. Double tapping zoomed in as expected, but
afterwards the design resized itself again. The result is quite funny ;)

I like the idea, though. Looks great on bigger devices.

------
pestaa
Wow I'm speechless, this is wonderful. Going through the code, I see the
widest spectrum of issues I hate about PHP in just these few files, yet the
result is absolutely fascinating.

This a testament as to how the tool does not really matter in good hands.

This must be running on the custom-tailored C++ HTTP server, Ivory:
<https://github.com/cheshirecats/Ivory>

Why did you feel the popular options don't cut it for your needs?

------
agscala
If you had nested comments, then maybe you can make the claim of being similar
to Google Wave.

The design is great though, and the formatting on posts is excellent

~~~
cheshirecat
Well it does support nested comments... They are just automatically folded so
the appearance is cleaner. Try "#xxxx" (and click it). You can find the post
id by clicking the user icon.

You can even do self-reference and build an infinite stair.

~~~
citricsquid
The idea behind threaded comments is they're a separate thread so to have them
"folded in" is counter intuitive. It's already evident that this sort of
"threading" is a problem, if you look you can see users referring to each
other by name which doesn't associate the reply with the parent, which makes
the conversation hard to follow. Imagine this with 10,000 replies...

If you don't properly thread the comments then you will very much cripple the
way a conversation can evolve, I run one of the largest forums and if there's
one thing that absolutely sucks it's a lack of proper threading, it seriously
restricts how long a topic can survive and how useful it can be.

~~~
cheshirecat
Ah I got you. I have considered this multiple times, but a flat system still
appears better for me. Yes, it is a very important issue and I will try to
come up with a better solution, probably hybrid.

~~~
citricsquid
Something I like is the idea of "forking" topics, conversations evolve and if
a new comment thread becomes over a few replies there's generally a good
chance it has become its own conversation which can then involve into another
conversation etc etc etc.

If I was trying to keep the system as "flat" as possible I would consider
deciding on an arbitrary cut off point (total replies, or total "levels" of
replies) that automatically forks a thread into a new topic and then in the
original topic would display in a similar style to a comment but with "this
comment has generated a new topic, 2 replies... load preview / go to topic")

not sure if that's explained well enough, but I think that would solve the
problem.

~~~
acomar
That's a great idea. Maybe it needs good auto-categorization to implement
well, but another idea is to not bother with the thresholds at all -- every
comment can potentially spawn off a new wave of replies, so why not just fork
into separate threads immediately? The top level view gives you the flat view
of the top level thread, and by diving in through the replies you can keep
flat views of each sub-conversation. If every comment is treated the same,
then it truly doesn't matter how old the comment you're replying to is because
you could be sparking an entirely new discussion.

------
mauro_oto
I really enjoyed the feel of the interface. One suggestion: make it so that
IJKL scrolls the right panel, the way WASD works for the left panel.

------
lhnz
This is what my TODO list would look like if I was you:

* Markdown.

* Remove "guest" from the Users list.

* Reading mode should have much larger text. Remember what sites like Instapaper, Readility, ReadItLater have given people.

* Some way of voting up insightful comments. I don't think the shit storm that you're currently experiencing in spam is currently solved...

* Tiny icons hiding lots of features and the awkward way of getting to the 'reply' links is poor usability.

------
swalsh
I have no idea what this is, but i'd suggest adding "Categories" The signal to
noise ratio here is just to small. Nothing seems relevant...

~~~
cheshirecat
There's a "Lists" function. And it is hidden, to keep the UI ultra-clean.
Click the left pane title to show it.

------
orangethirty
_Feedback_

This is what I get when I try to visit the page:

Your browser does not have window.WebSocket object :-(

Try the lastest version of Chrome or Firefox or Safari.

I know that I have to update, but realize that not everyone has the
latest/greatest stuff out there. Also, if I visit your page without JS it
doesnt show anything (at all).

~~~
mansoor-s
As a web-dev I see these kinds of comments a lot.

There is a simple solution: Step 1) Upgrade your browser. Step 2) Enable
JavaScript.

You can't strip down your browsers functionality and expect the web to conform
to it. Thats like saying this website won't load on my potato! EVIL EVIL
potato haters!

~~~
orangethirty
As an engineer focusing on web software I also see these comments a lot. I
also know how it drives people (buying customers) away from websites. Yet it
is rather surprising how people like you make such comments. "Upgrade your
software, you fool!" seems to be the norm. But, how much does it cost to add a
few lines of code like the following:

<noscript>Please enable javascript. If you have any questions how to do so,
please click on this <a href="#">link.</a></noscript>

In fact, I'll license that code right there under the GNU WTFPL license, so
web devs like you can use it to their advantage.

In terms of browsers, allow me to ask you some questions. Do you know which is
the second most used browser in the USA? Firefox. Which version? Not the
latest. People are always at least one or two updates behind. Not making a
website available to a majority is just bad business sense.

~~~
mansoor-s
I'm sorry. I couldn't read your comment. My hammer and chisel can't render
that text properly. Not everyone has a computer you know! Please provide
proper support.

------
brador
I hate to be that guy, but you called it a startup so...

What's the revenue model here? How's it going to make money?

------
thedangler
I was looking at the git repo and I couldn't seem to figure out how it was
doing all the asyc connections. I looked at his source code and he is using
websockets which I don't believe is in the git repo. Correct me if im wrong.

------
fumar
Very cool simple design. I clicked around a few things. The only part that
seemed "off" was having the "Post" button on the left side.

I like the expand button on the top right. Its nice for longer posts.
Definitely keep the good work.

------
state
Reminds me a bit of <http://are.na>

------
asynchronous13
I would like to evaluate the site, but it is nearly impossible to view from my
phone (iphone, safari). If I zoom in on an area, the page resizes itself and
remains unreadable.

~~~
kobzevvv
web-Mobile makeup for rizzoma will be ready on next week.

------
yehanyin
I like the design, simple and clean.

The title sounds inflated but you win me, :)

~~~
cheshirecat
Thank you. Currently the left pane has realtime update, and I am working on RT
update for the right pane which is far more complicated.

I find people either really, really hate the design, or like it.

~~~
natekupp
> I find people either really, really hate the design, or like it.

A sign you're doing things right :) great work. Looking forward to seeing
more.

------
d0m
Just to make sure I understand.. It's IRC on the web? Is there anything I am
missing? I.e. Compared to grove.io.

But design wise, it's simple and clean, I like it :)

------
lenkite
Google Wave had threads. This appears to be missing.

------
Mikushi
Very nice and simple, I like it. Thanks for answering the questions over
there, always curious about the inner workings of such things.

------
kumarski
<http://www.rizzoma.com> is much better.

The founder himself stayed at my place using airbnb this summer. I'm a YC
alum. He has one of the most interesting founding stories I've ever heard. He
is a Siberian-Kazakhstani hacking competition winner who knows Judo and runs a
series of small businesses in Russia. Bars that partake in sportsbetting-all
Legal. He designed the software as a way to manage his businesses with his
founders and grew it into something more.

~~~
tensafefrogs
How is it better? Rizzoma (wave) is so incredibly complicated I feel very
overwhelmed when I visit the site. It's like stepping into a fighter jet
cockpit.

~~~
baseh
Same experience here. I think compared to Ops site, Rizzoma is over-engineered
out of the wazoo. Once you start adding features for everyone, their grandma
and their dog, things are bound to get complicated. The Ops site is such a
simple and a breath of fresh air.

~~~
kobzevvv
Could you provide links to services that are you talking about?

------
JacksonGariety
Damn I can't go "back" on this site in Safari 6.0

------
hnriot
The back button seems to be broken/disabled by this which is very annoying to
break default browser behaviour.

~~~
kobzevvv
Browser "back" should work in the same way. (every topic has own link). Our
back button has different feature it play your last changes back (like back
button in ms word). May be we should change the icon?

------
dreamdu5t
It'd be awesome if you used progressive enhancement so it still worked without
JavaScript.

~~~
cheshirecat
Unfortunately, that'll be very difficult as I plan to make it 100% realtime.

------
l0c0b0x
Dear sir, your prototype (really?) is just beautifully awesome!

------
nerdo
Because it's being used to talk about the scrollbars in it?

------
binaryjohn
I like it; a fresh new look at forum interaction

------
francov88
Amazing. Use it. That is all.

------
caycep
hopefully it fares better than wave - good luck!

------
mietek
Why not Markdown?

