

Drinking Your Way Up the Ladder - pwim
http://www.zevgroup.com/socialdrinking.html

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iamelgringo
This is pretty interesting in light of my hosting Hacker and Founders in
Silicon Valley and San Fran (Meetup on thursday if you're interested
<http://hackersandfounders.com> ).

We've tried a lot of different formats: coffee shop, lectures and
presentations. None of them work for us quite as well as going to a bar and
chatting. We've thought a lot about this over the past two years.

People instinctively understand that when they go to a bar, they are there to
relax and have a good time. A lot of times, people are really stressed out
from a long day at work, and would like to have a drink, unwind and chat.
People don't tend to unwind in a coffee shop or a restaurant. While I've
certainly enjoyed the lobby chat at conferences I've been to, but bar talk
with the geeks at hackers and founders tends to be a lot better imho.

I'd also say, that the best business relationships that I've developed have
involved social alcohol. I grew up in a teetotaler household, and I've made a
point of learning how to drink socially and responsibly. Frankly, it requires
practice. I think it's actually a pretty valuable social skill to have in the
startup world.

Final point. We've pretty much standardized on having alcohol at every Hackers
and Founders Silicon Valley, and I have yet to see a single person get drunk,
or concern me that they were going to be unsafe while driving.

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simonsquiff
It's amazing the effect a first drinking session make for a new employee.
Countless times I've seen the difference after that 'first night out' for new
staff - the next day they really are much more accepted into the team, and
much less 'the new guy'.

If you've recently started somewhere, and feeling a little disconnected from
the rest of the team, get down the pub or bar with them and you will
definitely notice the difference the next day. It's also true to say the
heavier the session the more the bonding.

~~~
Goladus
A bonding session doesn't have to involve drinking. It's merely a cultural
custom. Drinking has a lot of potentially unhealthy side-effects and while I
don't think anyone should drastically change their behavior as a result of one
simple study, it's worth taking a step back to look at the role alcohol plays
in your life and whether its benefits are really worth the drawbacks.

~~~
paulbaumgart
So have a couple club sodas and lime. As long as you're tolerant of how the
people with a little bit of a buzz going are acting, you shouldn't feel
particularly excluded. If people do make a big fuss about it, you should
probably find drinking buddies with more interesting things to talk about. :-)

~~~
Goladus
That's one answer for some people. Regardless, it's missing the point that
this study isn't saying "stop going out with friends for drinks!" It's an
examination of social customs and their effects. That I can order a Shirley
Temple with a straight face while others drink straight Jameson is largely
irrelevant.

Yes, there benefits of going out for drinks. Those haven't been disputed, that
I can see.

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zbyszek
What a fantastic way to extinguish through overanalysis any joy that might
have been had from the simple pleasure going for a quick drink after work. I
realise that drinking cultures might vary enormously but I just don't
recognise the fraught environment that is being presented here; I have never
seen anyone put under pressure for not drinking, and "White wine won't mix
with the whiskey crowd"? Really? I like to go out with work colleagues on
occasion. I find that if you are going to spend eight hours a day with some
people it helps to get to know them personally a little bit, and this in turn
eases the working relationship. This doesn't have to be achieved by going to
the pub; that's just a social norm. In some cultures a convivial gathering
might mean drinking sweet tea and smoking a hookah, but in mine it involves
booze.

~~~
Goladus
It's not overanalysis. The fact that drinking and losing sleep is physically
unhealthy, along with the fact that there's widespread social pressure to
partake, means that the question is worth exploring. You don't have to agree
with the answer, but your dismissive and defensive attitude is exactly why a
study like this is worthwhile.

If you aren't someone who prefers not to drink, you probably don't really
understand where the pressure comes from.

Every single time you go out with new people, people make comments on your
lack of drinking. Either the fact that you ordered a 7-up or that it's been 3
hours and you still haven't finished your first beer. Plus the bar itself is
designed to sell alcohol, so there's inherent pressure just by being there.

My primary career (IT) doesn't involve a lot of people going out drinking on a
regular basis. But I sing for fun, and in that field people are constantly out
late, and yes there is pressure to drink. EVERYONE who goes out drinks more
than me, and even people I've known for a year or more still make comments.
And lately I've had to skip the drinking night because I have to be up at 6:30
AM the next morning for a meeting. I feel much better physically and mentally
but I'm socially out of touch.

Plus, there's the matter of being at the bar when your regular bedtime passes
and your melatonin starts kicking in. All the drinkers don't even notice and
sit around yammering for another hour or four while you sit there yawning.

~~~
theorique
"If you aren't someone who prefers not to drink, you probably don't really
understand where the pressure comes from."

Some of us who do choose to drink at times also choose _not_ to drink on
certain occasions - e.g. weeknight w/ workout or yoga at 0630. There's
definite social pressure to drink at a "drinking establishment" but I don't
recall anyone ever wedging my jaws open and funneling beer down my throat.

Hold your own frame and never let your reality be dominated by the throwaway
comments of others.

If you want to use a decoy, get a 1/2 cranberry / 1/2 soda with a wedge of
lime. Looks like a "real" drink.

~~~
Goladus
_I don't recall anyone ever wedging my jaws open and funneling beer down my
throat._

That's really why I made the post. Just to explain that this study fully
understands that most people do not have beer forced down their throats and
instead examined broader trends. My point was to show that there is a whole
spectrum between not feeling any pressure and being threatened at gunpoint.

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jac_no_k
It seems that socializing over alcohol is the lowest common denominator for
after work activities. Personally I would rather socialize over a nice meal or
go play some multiplayer games or plan an outing to an airsoft field. But
after work, in a metro area, the bars are plenty and accessible.

I wish someone taught me the strategy of socializing over drinks. As an
introvert, I avoided these kind of events and really didn't get anywhere in
terms of progressing through the corporate ranks. Realizing that I needed to
change me behavior, I started joining these events. It really is a good
opportunity to grease the bureaucratic wheels found in corporation to get
things done during the work day. It's a teachable skill.

Now my work day really doesn't end when I leave the office. It's "business
beers" in the evenings.

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travem
I'm a practising Mormon and so don't drink but often hang-out after work with
others. My career has been progressing very well in my opinion and not
drinking hasn't had an effect as far as I can tell.

I think that being it is being sociable with others that helps you move up
rather than specifically drinking.

~~~
Vivtek
I have to agree - although I've done the business drinking thing myself, a
very little, I think most of the pressure is people wanting you to validate
what they know is stupid behavior. If you laugh with them and make it clear
you don't care that they're killing their own brain cells, most of them won't
hold it against you. Self-deprecating humor is best.

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sdfx
The point that surprised me the most was the study about lower salaries for
non-drinkers (-12.8% for men and -25.5% for women). While the study is from
1988 I'm curious how much has changed in the meantime. Although I'm in doubt
that the sole reason for this discrepancy is the willingness to drink.

Maybe you earn more in the investigated industries if you are an outgoing
"people person". And maybe you are more likely to drink if you are outgoing.
It's the old causation/correlation thing. But still interesting.

~~~
gaius
I am REALLY suspicious of statistics like that. Are we including people too
young to drink (21 in the US) who will be on much lower pay anyway? Let's see
it as "people in industry X in city Y age Z" and I bet it's not so much.

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iuguy
The pub is part of our interview process. Before taking anyone on we take them
to lunch and they meet everyone in the office they will work with. It's an
opportunity to meet people and see how well they get on. When we get back we
have a discussion about the candidate and whether or not we should hire them,
if they don't fit in, no hire.

I appreciate it's an unfair test and that only the dumbest candidates wouldn't
realise that this is part of the interview process but being outside of the
office, having an opportunity to talk with the people that you'll work with
gives the candidate as much of a view of whether or not they want to work with
us as the other way around.

~~~
ern
What about interviewees who don't drink (for personal or religious reasons)?

~~~
baha_man
Presumably if they go along to the pub, have a soft drink, and get along with
everyone, they pass the test.

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robryan
If the mangers can't stand working with someone their going to favour another
person who they like to work with and fits their mood and culture. Even if the
other person is a better candidate for the position, we don't work in a
bubble, the relationships between people are going to play a part.

There would be workplaces which work the other way, where people abstaining
from alcoholic fueled after work events look more favourable.

------
chegra84
Correlation does not equal causation.

------
edo
There is no ladder.

------
pw0ncakes
It seems like this applies to people who want to ascend to upper-management in
large companies, where drinking the right drinks and playing the right sports
matters.

On the other hand, I know a lot of small businesses that have been hit _very_
badly by a partner or early employee with drinking, gambling, or other
character issues. They tend to be much less into the alcoholism. Social
drinking's one thing, but the "3-martini lunch" is ridiculous. Software isn't
like _Mad Men_.

