
US Gen Z and the iMessage Lock-In - seapunk
https://twitter.com/BenBajarin/status/1162048579654963200
======
Kadin
I switched to iOS (via a used iPhone on a BYOD plan) primarily for iMessage. I
was tired of being the odd man out, missing out on things that were being
planned via group messages, etc. Nobody was going to switch to an entirely
different mode of communication just for my sake, so the existence of
theoretical alternatives doesn't really matter. (And I do try to use Facebook
Messenger for group chats, so as not to lock Android people out myself, since
I've been on the other side of that and it sucks.)

But really this is Google's problem, not Apple's.

Google could have owned this space if they hadn't taken their eye off the ball
and fucked up Hangouts. There was a period of time where _everyone_ used
Hangouts, and they did a brilliant job getting market penetration by including
it in Gmail. It's cross-platform, so it could have been _the_ lowest-common-
denominator in over the top messaging services, the thing that everyone knew
everyone else could use when you want something that's not SMS or kludgy MMS.

But Google snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, seemingly intentionally
driving people off of Hangouts into other apps. This was incredibly stupid --
when you tell your users to switch to a different app, they may well switch to
a competitor's. If they wanted to roll out additional features, they should
have done it in Hangouts, not by building new services. (And RCS is garbage. I
don't know who wants a carrier-dependent, unencrypted messaging service in
2019, but certainly not me.)

The lack of a viable iMessage alternative is entirely because of Google's
failure to invest in the Android platform and produce one.

~~~
asclepi
> Nobody was going to switch to an entirely different mode of communication
> just for my sake

Please elaborate. No iPhone user has to switch from the "iMessage" app to the
"SMS" app to reach an Android user or include an Android user in a group chat.
While it does indeed involve a different mode of communication, it's all
handled seamlessly in the background from the same app.

In fact, if it wasn't for the coloring, they wouldn't even have noticed,
except if you exchanged other data than pure text, but I can't imagine this
being a real deal-breaker for planning?

Note how the Twitter OP also explained how they were texting the Android
student from iOS until they decided to abandon him and create a new group. Not
because they had to switch to another app to reach him, but "because he was on
Android and turned the thread green" (sic).

~~~
jdminhbg
> In fact, if it wasn't for the coloring, they wouldn't even have noticed,
> except if you exchanged other data than pure text, but I can't imagine this
> being a real deal-breaker for planning?

People very frequently exchange data other than pure text when event planning:
GIFs, map pins, tapbacks to express [dis]agreement, etc.

~~~
jjeaff
I get gifs and likes just fine on my Android from iMessage groups I am in. I
can't tell anything is missing.

~~~
mandelbrotwurst
We can't _send_ the tapbacks though

------
pcmoney
It is interesting that the comments on the Twitter thread are "Just use
WhatsApp". Which is basically iMessage but from Facebook. Comparing two, the
vendor lock-in from Apple seems much preferable to the one with Facebook in
light of the data scandals Facebook has and their ongoing effort to backdoor
WhatsApp and integrate it with FB messenger etc. Also a group message is only
as secure as its most weakly encrypted member and sms definitely loses there
vs iMessage.

I would rather have Apple win the network effect here vs another data pimp
like Google (who, ads aside, can't be trusted to maintain any communication
platform).

I would much rather this all be standardized with end to end encryption
protocols. (C'mon Signal!)

~~~
danfang
I don't know if this is too self promoting, but I'm part of the YC SUS 2019
program and I'm building a product that addresses the issue of messaging lock
in, as well as data privacy.

I'm building Thread - an ad-free, private social network for groups. It's an
alternative to Facebook (Messenger and WhatsApp), iMessage and GroupMe. It's
the best way to connect with, share content to, and interact with the people
in your life.

It's a limited release right now (still in alpha), but please sign up and
check it out at [https://thread-app.com/register](https://thread-
app.com/register). EDIT: it only is available on desktop web at the moment to
US based users. Anything else will most likely give you an error.

E2E encryption is something we are considering building. Right now, the
promise is no-ads, no front-end tracking, and no selling data to third
parties.

Happy to chat more about it and answer any questions (maybe this isn't an
appropriate place for that discussion).

~~~
danpalmer
Sounds like a great idea. I'm a huge +1 to E2E encryption and mobile support –
I'm looking for something good to replace WhatsApp.

Minor bit of very biased feedback – the name "Thread" is quite overloaded.
Thread (my employer) is a clothing recommendation service, ThreadsStyling is a
luxury fashion concierge, Thread Group are an IoT specification, Open Thread
is an implementation of that spec I believe.

~~~
danfang
Yeah, I figured it was. I'm quite open to a name change
([http://www.paulgraham.com/name.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/name.html)).
I have some ideas in mind. Thread is temporary at the moment.

~~~
SwiftyBug
How about Message.in?

~~~
yMessageApp
or yMessage?

------
asclepi
I do notice a pattern of misunderstanding that I've also observed when talking
with Android users IRL.

iMessage is very different from Whatsapp. For starters, there is no dedicated
iMessage app. iMessage is managed from the iOS Messages app, which handles
both iMessage and SMS. It's very good at managing both from one unified
interface. In fact, it's so good that it uses arbitrary coloring of messages
so you can see what message was sent through iMessage and what message was
sent through SMS, because you would often not be able to tell otherwise as
it's all in the same interface.

A lot of caveats apply here, but broadly speaking, while an iMessage user is
typing a message, Messages will contact Apple to check if the recipient is
also an iMessage user. If yes, it will try to send the message through
iMessage and color the text bubble blue. If no, it will go through SMS and the
bubble gets a green color. If iMessage fails in the first scenario, Messages
will offer to revert to SMS.

So unlike Whatsapp, Messages doesn't care if the recipient has iMessage or
not. And it also _does not care_ if the recipient has an iPhone or not. It
will get the message over regardless, as long as the recipient can receive
SMS, which any Android phone can. Whatsapp, OTOH, _does_ put the onus on the
recipient to have the app. In other words: when it comes to the recipient,
Messages (the app) is actually a lot more inclusive than Whatsapp (the app).

These HS teens aren't locking others out because they can't text their Android
friends. They perfectly can, as OP from the Twitter thread also acknowledges,
from the same app that they use to text their iPhone friends. They lock them
out because Messages colors the bubbles green, which has become a social
stigma in our high schools. Nothing more, nothing less. So it is not a
technical limitation, and neither is it a cost issue, as virtually all
wireless plans include unlimited (SMS) texts in the US. It is purely a human
factors issue, which teens of all times and generations have been very prone
to. As sad as it is.

~~~
azinman2
Sorry, but group chat over SMS is crap. Lots of Android phones as well don’t
operate group SMS well, you get reduced resolution in photos and videos, can’t
like/heart messages in the same way, no typing indicators, etc etc. Losing
iMessage features sucks when you’re otherwise used to it.

~~~
RickS
> reduced resolution in photos and videos

This and group names are the absolute killers.

It's tough. My understanding is that SMS is at fault under the surface,
requiring that images and videos be compressed to fit a size limit (right?).

My preferred solution would be mandated adversarial interoperability.

Absent that, I wish android could bundle images into a dead simple hosting
site that send me a link to all the images, at max resolution, displayed with
zero chrome whatsoever, in a browser window. Then I can download them like
normal assets (with my press-and-hold browser utils. no third party UI).

Receiving photos packaged in a google library, for example, is a nightmare.

~~~
nerdjon
> Absent that, I wish android could bundle images into a dead simple hosting
> site that send me a link to all the images, at max resolution, displayed
> with zero chrome whatsoever, in a browser window. Then I can download them
> like normal assets (with my press-and-hold browser utils. no third party
> UI).

I would not be particularly happy to find out that someone I was messaging on
an Android phone could easily just send up any images I send them to a public
site.

(Already not happy with Google having data about me that I do not consent to
thanks to people with Android phones)

~~~
RickS
>I would not be particularly happy to find out that someone I was messaging on
an Android phone could easily just send up any images I send them to a public
site.

There may have been a misunderstanding here.

I was referring to an android phone sending me (on iPhone) hosted images as a
fallback rather then sending them via MMS (lossy) or google photos (bloated).

------
iamwpj
It's misleading to just say "because of the green text" it's so much more than
that. If you have an active iMessage chat and users are using iMessage
features, it's a weird experience for the non-iMessage folks. It seemed like a
real victory to have emojis in the UTF format, but of course now Apple turns
on the big FU and finds other ways to chide non-iMessage users.

Don't blame the kids.

~~~
NobodyNada
It's not just a weird experience for "the non-iMessage folks," it's a weird
experience for everyone just because MMS is missing so many features in
comparison to iMessage. Last I checked, it wasn't even possible to add or
remove someone from an MMS group without creating a new group from scratch.
Additionally, MMS is unreliable in my experience -- oftentimes, messages are
delayed by upwards of 15 minutes, and it doesn't work at all if I'm somewhere
with less-than-perfect cell coverage (including my home and work).

------
throw0101a
Lock-in doesn't last forever: just ask ICQ, MSN, and BBM.

My sister used all of those things as she was growing up in the 2000s and
2010s. The flavour-of-the-day is now iMessage. She sometimes complains that
I'm not on the system (supposedly handy to group chat with our mom), but I
can't be bothered to follow the latest fad.

We'll see how long that lasts. Maybe at some point the telcos and phone makers
will eventually get around to supporting RCS:

* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services)

~~~
Infinitesimus
I'm not sure the comparison is that neat. Everyone was on BBM until most
people stopped using a BlackBerry.

iMessage will live on until most people stop using an iPhone in the US because
iMessage is guaranteed to be present on your iDevice and usually works
reliably enough for a vast majority of the population.

~~~
throw0101a
Yes, that's the point: there were, are, and will be, protocols or technologies
that are popular and it will be Very Important that you use them. Until
they're not important.

Maybe Apple will be better at staying relevant than Research in
Motion/Blackberry.

------
ohnope
I honestly don't mind green texters in my iMessage groups, but when it becomes
really apparent is when we forget about the android user and start adding
reactions to messages, which come in as texts. Then it becomes really
obnoxious. I've never seen people break out into a separate iOS-only group,
but chats have definitely devolved into mocking the text-substitution for
message reactions by recursively reacting to text reactions, which get
absurdly long. And then it ends with someone sarcastically suggesting the
android user buy an iPhone.

I feel that if I was a teenager and not an adult, this kind of frustration
must result in regrouping iOS only.

------
davidy123
This has been going on for decades with MS Office. I recently proposed to an
elderly acquaintance that they get a Chromebook because a full Windows
installation was causing them so much trouble, but they couldn't because their
peers edited one specific document using MS Word and for some reason it caused
trouble when people edited it online. And that's just at the individual level,
MS Office lock-in is a fact for so many organizations. People who really care
about consumer choice, competition, and the free/open option should be
vigorously working against these issues.

~~~
dunnevens
I'm sure you already tried this, but did the Word app for Android work for the
edited document? With Chrome OS support for Android apps, that might a
solution for your acquaintance.

~~~
davidy123
This was before Android for ChromeOS was released. But they just wanted a
Windows laptop, because they thought it was the only way they could
confidently edit documents in their group.

------
1_player
Is WhatsApp not used in the US? Honest question.

I'm in EU, I moved to an iPhone a few years ago and I've yet to receive an
actual iMessage, but my friends, local or international, all use WhatsApp. I
just use regular SMS for more "formal" messaging, such as with my boss or
landlord, or to receive OTP codes.

~~~
sithadmin
I see WhatsApp used in the US among folks with relatively large networks of
international acquaintances. For those with more domestic social networks,
pplain SMS, iMessage, GroupMe, and Facebook Messenger seem to be more common
among the general population. Signal, Telegram, Discord, and Slack are pretty
prevalent with techies.

~~~
umeshunni
Is GroupMe having a resurgence? I remember using it in 2011-2012 but it seems
to have disappeared with the rise of FB messenger.

------
matz1
Yup, i have group that "Just use WhatsApp", and group that "Just use wechat",
the thing is installing and switching app is easy, but with imesssage, you
really have to switch phone, thats way more troublesome.

------
Stubb
It's been refreshing moving the majority of my messaging to Telegram with a
bit of Signal on the side. No worries about what platform people are using or
that our data is being mined and sold to advertisers. Using iMessage is pretty
much a fallback to people who are tech illiterate. The user experience on
Telegram is so much better than the other options, and its privacy & security
are good enough for my purposes.

~~~
jdgoesmarching
Good for you that you could convince all of your friends and family to switch
messaging services, that’s not realistic for most of us. Not sure what you’re
going on about for tech illiteracy, iMessage is end-to-end encrypted and the
feature set is perfectly fine.

~~~
sixbrx
Encrypted unless an Android user is involved which is the case here.

------
pardavis
I’m 24 and this is why I switched to iPhone 6 or 7 years ago, I was being left
out of group chats.

------
word-reader
It's not just about it "being green", the contrast between the text and the
background is lower with the green SMS bubbles than the blue iMessage bubbles,
making it harder to read. I guarantee you if the SMS bubbles were a shade or
two darker green people wouldn't care as much.

~~~
anchpop
Its pretty interesting that Apple, who pride themselves so much on form, chose
that undeniably unpleasant shade of green.

~~~
tguedes
I think its on purpose. Associate an unpleasant color with Android so if you
ever switch from iPhone to Android you know you will show up as the same
unpleasant green on their phones.

~~~
Terretta
It’s not Android, it’s SMS. Text an iPhone user who isn’t signed into iCloud,
it uses SMS, and is green.

~~~
ghettoimp
Does that... ever happen? As a casual iPhone user, I don't remember ever
signing into or out of iCloud for anything. I assume I'm probably signed in at
all times?

------
myrandomcomment
I opened Message on my Mac the other day to type a message to a friend. It
switched to green and was not successful. WTH? Grabbed phone and asked him. Oh
I moved to an Android. Painful. The fact that I have to use the phone to text
him bugs me to no end.

My current group of core friends are storing a party tomorrow and it is simple
as it is all the blue text and I can read the messages on everything I own.
Having to revert to SMS would be painful.

The funny thing is a few years ago we would all use Google Talk...yah.

Looking at my “chat” folder on my iPad, phone etc, I have Google hangouts
(work and gmail friends), LINE (Japan, Korea, Singapore), Meet (google for
work meetings), Discord for gaming, and Webex (work for customers that do not
use Google for email). It is painful.

I did drop IRC a few years ago..

Only if XMPP had really won...oh well.

~~~
lotsofpulp
I can send SMS, MMS, and iMessages just fine from my macOS. Never had an
issue. I assume SMS/MMS needs a mobile network connection from your phone
though.

~~~
myrandomcomment
You have to have the feature on that let’s you take calls from you iPhone on
the Mac. I do not want that on, but you are correct.

------
newnewpdro
I don't see how this proves tangible lock-in. Teens can be brutally arbitrary
when it comes to finding ways to exclude others or simply manufacture cliques
to exert dominance/influence over the lives of others.

------
zbentley
It's a major bummer that Apple got the network effect bonus for "SMS++"
(really any IM solution that has the combo of being ubiquitous, usable without
setup/technical skill, and polished).

I have a hunch that most people who use these tools for group chat purposes
don't really care about the features of iMessage that make it horribly
incompatible with SMS clients (e2ee, pairing with computers), and just want
what amounts to a Discord/Slack/whatever non-threaded channel, but on their
phones and with good UX. That shouldn't have to mean lock-out.

------
693471
iMessage is far more reliable, has richer features, never needs app updates
(bc they come with the OS), E2E by default, and media attachments send faster
and more reliably than SMS.

I don't blame them. SMS is terrible. And most of the other apps suck or are
from untrustworthy companies.

Apple's being rewarded for good behavior.

~~~
viraptor
Being integrated into the system is not necessarily a good thing.
[https://www.phonearena.com/news/iMessage-exploit-allows-
hack...](https://www.phonearena.com/news/iMessage-exploit-allows-hackers-to-
hijack-your-iPhone-by-simply-sending-you-a-message_id118049)

In that case you can't even remove it to protect yourself.

~~~
693471
Apple fixes this stuff quickly enough for it to not be a huge issue, and if
they ever needed to make iMessage a separate app like Android does with theirs
they could do it. I'm certain they could remotely make it show up in the App
Store in a moment's notice if needed. App store has root access, it can do it.

------
goatinaboat
Those who forget BBM are bound to repeat it

------
sodosopa
I don't blame them. If you're in the ecosystem, with an iPad or a Macbook you
have iMessage there too without installing a Facebook or any other intrusive
or untrustworthy apps.

------
jdlyga
Green bubble means limited features, and accordance with the 1990s SMS
standard (who knows if anything over 160 characters will be split up, etc).

------
qubex
I’ve been using iOS from the iPhone 3G onwards and have gradually migrated my
whole family from a plethora of assorted platforms (my sister was a Blackberry
fanatic, my father didn’t want to let go of his Treo) to iOS. However, when it
came to creating a “family chat” group, I went with WhatsApp precisely to
avoid this kind of lock-in.

------
ryandrake
If friends decide to exclude you from their group because of what messaging
technology you use, then I have some bad news for you: They're not really your
friends. That kind of behavior is not compatible with what most of us would
expect of a healthy friendship.

~~~
viraptor
That would be my response as an adult. I'm not sure if this is as easy to see
by kids. But for teenagers, I think it's an interesting conversation: "Your
friend will exclude you if you don't spend hundreds of dollars on a tech
gadget, even if a no-cost solution exists on their side. What do you think
about this?"

If it's an activity group they really want to belong to, that's ok. If it's
between friends who want to stay close... something's not right.

------
dvfjsdhgfv
Seems like a US thing - I noticed in Europe most people use WhatsApp for group
chats.

~~~
bpye
WhatsApp and Facebook messenger are the two that seem widely used in the UK. I
know a few people using Signal and Telegram too.

------
lobstercat
honestly havent been in an imessage group chat since groupme came out

~~~
pcmoney
They never had a monetization plan and don't charge for use and their last re-
design was in 2012? How do you think they make money? Either they don't and
they are going to disappear soon or they do and they are just another data
pimp.

They got bought by Skype awhile back which is being shelved in favor of Teams.
I bet MSFT shuts it down once it remembers it still exists.

~~~
olyjohn
Skype for Business, which is not Skype at all, is being shelved in favor of
Teams.

------
Wowfunhappy
It's not a real solution, but I'm kind of surprised no one has hacked up some
type of iMessage forwarder for Android + an old Mac.

~~~
drusepth
I think I've seen a few on HN over the years.

Here's a random one that seems to be recent:
[https://airmessage.org/guide/](https://airmessage.org/guide/)

------
klondike_
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish

1\. Apple embraced SMS with the original iPhone

2\. Apple added encryption and other enhancements to messages which were not
compatible with any other phone

3\. Extinguish users who use traditional SMS/MMS by downgrading quality of
service and disabling enhances features

What we really need is a universal internet messaging protocol like Email,
something that everyone agrees on and can deliver the rich experiences people
expect today

~~~
gen3
How did they extinguish anything? The new added features to iMessage are not
part of the SMS spec. They didn't take any features away, or degrade the
experience.

------
imagetic
I'd like those minutes of my life back.

------
draw_down
Well, it is a bit unfortunate they didn’t standardize on something cross-
platform like Whatsapp. But if they had, would the situation really be that
different?

------
rolltiide
Everytime I post about "green bubble" discrimination on hackernews, people act
_so surprised_ just like this father on twitter, and then talk about how vapid
and fake people must be to care about that

You know what people - iphone users - _actually_ say when there isn't mixed
company?

"Android users, especially self-identified ones, lack social cues in many
areas"

It goes way beyond an android user letting people know about how much control
they have over their phone, which is already missing the cue of nobody caring.
It goes beyond green bubbles, which is just the effect and litmus test which
has now expanded to a worse user experience in rich interactive group chats.

~~~
anchpop
Android has about 40% market share in the US [0], are you claiming that 40% of
the us are unable to identify social cues? I have a hard time believing that
this isn't just classism. Most of my friends from poorer areas, especially the
ones who grew up without access to the internet, have an Android. And my group
chats with them work pretty well since android supports the open standard RCS

[0]: [https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-
sta...](https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-states-of-
america)

~~~
pcmoney
I don't think it is a social cues thing either. I switched back and forth
between Droid and Apple for awhile until I read some fairly disturbing
predictions on how all these personal data warehouses could be used to
digitally enslave us. I am not sure it is a social cues things, although I
will concede frothing at the mouth Android and Apple fans are not people I
like to be around.

TBH the biggest driver towards Apple for me (aside from privacy) is now that I
am older and have kids and more responsibilities at work and don't have time
to tinker I don't want to have to figure out what the best messaging app for
my phone is. (I gave up using Linux in favor of MacOS as well for similar
reasons).

(Cue all the neckbeard Linux/Droid guys without a family or kids saying "its
not hard you just need to...<vaporize 30 minutes of your Saturday or
evening>")

~~~
rolltiide
> (Cue all the neckbeard Linux/Droid guys without a family or kids saying "its
> not hard you just need to...<vaporize 30 minutes of your Saturday or
> evening>")

Now we're talking, and this is a social cues thing.

For example, a discussion about airdrop - which many android users don't know
they are missing - often has an android user rationalizing their existence
about some other convoluted way to share images _maybe_ offline that is still
worse.

~~~
pcmoney
I do know that type of person and yes it is not fun. Or they recite all the
specs of a new Android vs iPhone and how you are such an "idiot" for being an
Apple sheep. When really you don't care that much and the price difference
isn't significant. Not to mention side by side your iPhone is noticeably
faster in a real world test of launching the same app, browsing etc.

Convincing those people that specs are mere indicators and do not matter in
the face of objective UX...impossible.

Really comes down to what you are optimizing for.

~~~
rolltiide
This, along with classism, along with a now worse user experience in mixed
company, is what leads to people to just isolating themselves from people with
"green bubbles".

And to top it off, the "green bubble" person is mostly oblivious to that
happening too.

