
When did the golden age of The Simpsons end? - miiiiiike
http://www.nathancunn.com/2017-10-26-simpsons-decline/
======
brownbat
There is a video with great analysis on this. Ultimately argues that Simpsons
was a great piece of counter culture, then it just won and became culture,
losing its ability to skewer mainstream comedy. Along with an upheaval in the
writer's room, it just went absurd all the time. That's a sometimes brilliant
move, but dull when used in place of any substance. It also forgot how to stay
true to its characters. Much more here:

[https://youtu.be/KqFNbCcyFkk](https://youtu.be/KqFNbCcyFkk)

~~~
walls
> Ultimately argues that Simpsons was a great piece of counter culture, then
> it just won and became culture, losing its ability to skewer mainstream
> comedy.

I feel like South Park has managed to do both.

~~~
madeofpalk
I know this is an extremely unpopular opinion (I've never met anyone in person
who agrees with this), but I don't think South Park is good or particularly
'topical'. It's always struck me as fake, untactful and does nothing apart
from making people feel smart about themselves.

The Outline (somewhat ironically imho) summed it up when they said "South Park
is not subversive":

    
    
        For 21 seasons, Trey Parker and Matt Stone have given fake woke white
        people a sense of self-satisfaction, reassuring them that they rise
        above the myopia that grips the residents of South Park; that they
        are subverting the establishment, rather than perpetuating it. Much
        like a joke South Park made about residents of San Francisco: They
        smugly inhaled their own farts.
    

[https://theoutline.com/post/2234/south-park-is-not-
subversiv...](https://theoutline.com/post/2234/south-park-is-not-subversive)

~~~
coldtea
> _The Outline (somewhat ironically imho) summed it up when they said "South
> Park is not subversive"_

I'd say the Outline is the one that does exactly what it accuses South Park
of: BS for "fake woke white people". It's just that they want to believe that
their white people are more "woke" than the ones watching South Park.

Starting with the BS idea of "high-brow" criticizing what in final analysis is
just a funny cartoon show -- this reeks of (real, not imagined)
pretentiousness and taking things too seriously itself.

~~~
ivm
"The main idea that a person tries to convey to others is that he has access
to much more prestigious consumption than others think about him. At the same
time, he tries to explain to others that their types of consumption are much
less prestigious than what they naively think. This is the goal of all social
maneuvers. Furthermore, only these discussions generate strong emotions in
people."

— Victor Pelevin, "Empire V"

------
nsxwolf
Someone on HN once commented that watching later seasons of The Simpsons is
like visiting a loved one with advanced Alzheimer’s disease. This rings true
to me.

It looks like them, but isn’t them. They occasionally have a flash of lucidity
where they are back to their old selves but then that moment is gone as
quickly as it came.

~~~
TheCondor
That is harsh, perhaps true.

We cut our cord about 8 years ago and our TV has been limited to streaming and
Netflix (DVDs too) My observation is that a great show seems to need 2 to 3
seasons to really find their pace, rhythm, and get it figured out. This is
changing with the short season episodic content that everyone is doing now but
network shows sort of need some time to find themselves. Beyond about season
7, they all fall apart in some way. I really can’t think of anything that
lasted 10 plus season and wasn’t effectively a different show from s1, only
the names are really the same; definitely the feelings it gives you will have
changed. I really only watched Simpsons occasionally during the first 3
seasons, it’s hard to fathom it having anything in common with then now.

~~~
gus_massa
I really liked "Law & Order" (classic edition).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_%26_Order](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_%26_Order)
They had 20 seasons, the cases were interesting and weird (and secretly based
in real cases), they lived in a strange word were the suspect had right, but
unlike "The Simpsons" they lost.

In the modern law&order versions, the CSI-whatever and other police shows,
half of the suspect spontaneously confess without a lawyer and the other half
confess after borderline torture. And the forensic analysis use magical
methods that would not be believable even in Start Trek.

~~~
Trill-I-Am
The last 5 seasons of the original law and order are trash. The new ADA wasn’t
nearly as good.

------
hk__2
I find this HN story title misleading (or clickbait-y): "Cluster analysis" is
just a tool; it doesn’t show anything by itself. You can do bad and good
cluster analysis, and you can probably "show" anything you want from it.

Excerpt from the blog post that explains the methodology:

> … we could consider performing cluster analysis on the data, essentially
> finding a way of grouping the episodes so that those with similar ratings
> are placed in groups together. A standard clustering approach would just
> group good episodes and bad episodes. However, I want to alter this slightly
> in that I only want a group to be made up of a single contiguous group of
> episodes; basically, if the episodes of season 4 are in the same group as
> the episodes of season 6, then the episodes of season 5 must also be in that
> group.

~~~
miiiiiike
The title is from BoingBoing. I think it’s fine, but I also have no problem
with a mod changing it. [https://boingboing.net/2017/10/28/cluster-analysis-
shows-tha...](https://boingboing.net/2017/10/28/cluster-analysis-shows-that-
th.html)

~~~
sctb
OK, we've changed it to the original from “Cluster analysis shows that the
golden age of the Simpsons ended in Season 10”.

------
SmellTheGlove
When I was younger, we always talked about being able to pick what we watched
- what we wanted, when we wanted. The Simpsons being our favorite show, it was
pretty natural that we just wanted to watch that all day.

Anyhow, years later adult me sought to realize that dream, via Plex and
Simpsons DVDs on Ebay. I have Seasons 1-14, but Season 12 is really the end of
it. The great stuff was probably Seasons 3-9, with Season 6 being my absolute
favorite.

Yeah I know the article is about actual analysis on this, but screw it, I
wanted to talk about The Simpsons!

------
ashark
[https://deadhomersociety.com/zombiesimpsons/](https://deadhomersociety.com/zombiesimpsons/)

TL;DR a loss of writers and voice talent from resignations and deaths combined
(probably) with the show simply running out of things to say (especially as
its irreverent tone took over culture; see also: DFW’s writings on TV) led to
its 1) becoming exactly the thing it was originally skewering, 2) relying too
much on the “homer gets a new job” gimmick, 3) shifting homer’s
Characterization significantly, and not for the better, and 4) spending an
awful lot more time subjecting homer to cartoon violence.

Decline is foreshadowed in S7, proceeds rapidly from there, and the show’s
wholly a shell of itself (a “zombie”) past S12. Site argues its case pretty
well, worth a read.

------
b3b0p
I still enjoy The Simpson's ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

It is obvious I'm in the minority. I don't know what people expect from the
show, especially for how long it's Been on the air consistently, but for what
it is, I love it. It's one of the few, actually maybe only show I look forward
to.

If you haven't you should listen to The Talking Simpson's [0]. I love this
podcast!

Also, if you have a cable subscription you can watch every episode on The
Simpson's World website [1] (it is pretty terrible to navigate and extremely
buggy though).

If The Simpson's was canceled or when, it feels like at this point it would be
a pretty big deal, especially for those of us who grew up on it. Like a hell
has frozen over moment. Mind boggling to put it. It's a part of our culture.

[0] [http://www.lasertimepodcast.com/category/talking-
simpsons/](http://www.lasertimepodcast.com/category/talking-simpsons/)

[1] [http://www.simpsonsworld.com](http://www.simpsonsworld.com)

~~~
valuearb
We own every season through itunes. It’s still good. Complaints of its decline
are like like complaints of the decline of SNL. There are good seasons and not
so good seasons, and it ebbs and flows with new writers.

~~~
chillwaves
SNL is a sketch comedy show where Simpsons has a consistent cast. The
characters used to be real and relatable but now have more in common with an
SNL type sketch comedy show with no expressed identities.

~~~
valuearb
Yea, the stories and characters depend on the writing and writers change over
time. No one looks back to Conan O’Brian leaving as the end, Groening et al
just hired a replacement.

------
mrweasel
The Simpsons suffer from a problem that's rather unique to US TV shows, and I
admit this may not be completely fair, given how large a percentage of popular
shows are American: When a US TV show turns out to be popular it will be
milked to death. Producers will keep popular shows alive for much longer than
they should, because they know a large percentage of fans will watch every new
show, regardless of quality.

The Simpsons had a good run, it's time to cancel it. If it's true that it
peeked at season 10, then the most of the shows are produced after it's peek.

~~~
jacobkg
This makes it even more incredible that Seinfeld ended its run after 9 seasons
at the height of its popularity. Jerry Seinfeld reportedly turned down $100
million dollars to make another season

~~~
slededit
And set up this great interaction on Larry King live where he asks if they got
cancelled:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVTP8xZCGVw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVTP8xZCGVw)

~~~
Zanni
Ha! I laughed more at that than I ever did at any episode of Seinfeld.
Brilliant.

------
superJoy
I collected Simpsons season DVDs until I lost interest... last one I purchased
is season 14. So there's a data point on when I had (re)seen enough of the
show (Although, I've seen S15-22 or so completely, sporadic watcher since
then).

I think season 10 is a fair cutoff point.

The jarring thing about the more recent episodes is the decline of Julie
Kavner's (Marge's) voice. It sounds...weak. Unhealthy. Other actors on the
show have a similar problem but hers is most notable.

~~~
bamboozled
There was definitely a few seasons (probably 4), I watched hoping and
anticipating it would get better ;)

------
g00gler
I was surprised to learn that everyone hated the Principal and the Pauper, I
loved that episode.

~~~
jerf
I don't hate the episode, but even despite my contrarianism I have to admit
I've been brought around to agree that it was a very bad episode for the
universe even if it was an OK episode internally. It's easy to forget if you
are young and you've never lived in a world where Simpson's seasons 1-7 or so
are all there was in the world, but the Simpson's used to actually have a
universe, rules, characters that were more than walking stereotypes, and even
a bit of capacity for lasting consequences, and thus, a capacity for drama
that the modern "cartoony" (in the bad sense) version has a very hard time
sustaining.

If you were raised in the modern era, you can get the reverse effect that some
of us oldster's describe by going back and watching Season 1 in order. It is
not the best season, but it was already showing a lot of the promise that
would manifest a couple of seasons later, and in so many ways you'll find it
is just a different show, even more clearly than if you go a couple of seasons
later. (And it does have my favorite Halloween episode. I have to admit I
haven't seen them all, and there were certainly some other good ones, but when
it comes down to it, it is hard to beat a dramatic reading of The Raven.
There's a reason this became a tradition and not just a one-off.)

------
tombert
I can't speak for anyone else, but I feel around season 12 is when it started
getting really annoying with the celebrity cameos. The NSYNC episode was so
horrendous that it actually made me stop watching with regularity, and it felt
like after that too many episodes were just means in which to showcase some
celebrity (e.g The Rolling Stones, Tony Hawk, Weird Al).

------
dmitriid
For an actual exploration of what happened, I highly recommend this video. The
Fall of The Simpsons: How it Happened
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk)

------
brudgers
My favorite take on "The Decline and Fall of the Simpsons Empire":

 _The Fall of the Simpsons_
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk)

~~~
artificial
Yes, this is excellent. I highly recommend watching this if you’re interested.

------
88e282102ae2e5b
Personally, If I were picking the assumptions and hyperparameters, I'd end up
with the golden age being seasons 3 through 8 :)

~~~
consentfactory
Those were the halcyon days of the Simpsons.

------
throwanem
> The decline was much like Fox News’ transition to a hardcore sex channel

When did _that_ happen? Granted I haven't paid close attention in a while, but
that still seems a surprising departure, to say the least. What have I missed?

~~~
iagooar
They probably A/B tested the content and found out that breasts sell better
than news.

Hint: this was a joke

~~~
throwanem
Yeah, I get that now, thanks.

------
criley2
Hah, I thought this was "why", so I looked into it.

His "end of the Golden Era": Wild Barts can't be Broken: Jan 17, 1999

Futurama, debut: March 28, 1999

So there's your why...

------
da_chicken
Somewhere between Armin Tamzarian, the first season of South Park, the first
season of Futurama, and the first season of Family Guy.

The Silver Age ended when The Simpson's Movie came out. Almost no animated
series survives the first movie intact.

~~~
Finnucane
The big screen is where TV shows go to die. It’s a kind of admission that your
idea is played out in it’s native format.

------
bayonetz
I felt Simpsons lost it by S7.

When other shows lost their magic:

Southpark - S5 It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia - S6 Arrested Development -
"S4" Deadwood - ended before its time! New Girl - S3 Big Love - S3 GoT - S7
Friends - S6 Office - S7 Workaholics - S4 The League -S4

My baseline seems to be around 5 +- 2 seasons. Saw another poster say same.
Similar dynamics apply in any creative job -- the writers can get bored and
complacent, early success leads to staff getting lured away, etc. Must make it
extremely hard to maintain quality.

~~~
fao_
Where does Frasier and Parks and Rec fit into your analysis? From what I can
tell after the first season they had pretty consistent runs after a shaky
first season.

~~~
bayonetz
Parks and Rec - S5, maybe S6

Sadley, never got around to Frazier.

------
tritium
The Guatemalan Insanity Pepper episode was the first “ _bad_ ” episode to
signal decline in quality, after which good episodes were absent, if not
extremely rare.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Really? I remember it fondly. It went from funny, to sad, to fulfilling in
what felt like a good pace.

~~~
tritium
There were a couple of violations in that episode that I remember
instinctively grasping when I originally watched it as a new episode when it
first aired.

I had been eagerly anticipating the episode, based on station promo spots that
had teasers about the episode, and I really thought it was going to be a
really good episode.

It was obvious that some extra effort was put into the animation, I had
anticipated solid writing to match. It looked like it was going to be on par
with a good Treehouse of Horror episode.

Instead, it turned out to be fluff. Only the trippy animation got attention,
and the entire episode is built around the trippy shots. The episode lines up
what might be considered the first “jerk ass” Homer incident, such that Homer
eats this MacGuffin chili pepper, apropos of nothing, and why? There is no
reason. It doesn’t build his character. It doesn’t reveal or change anything
about Homer. And he’s the centerpiece of the whole episode, the other
characters don’t figure into the plot very much, other than as sentimental
plush toys. He just does it. Why is he at the chili cook off? No real reason.

So the answer is: because they (the staff) wanted to do a trippy vision quest
desert sequence. And that’s it. No other alignment with the Simpsons universe.
It’s just Homer trips out in the desert. Everything else is window dressing.
Any tugs on the heartstrings, and appearances by the rest of the cast. The
spirit animal becomes nothing, and is never seen again, in any other episode
that mattered.

And so, then we have the principal violation of Homer doing drugs, and the
ancillary violation of Homer “ _doing drugs_ ” without actually doing drugs.
The pepper is a stand-in for hallucinogenic drugs, obviously. And here we have
homer trying the pepper, but for dishonest reasons. He didn’t set out to trip
balls in the desert, and his character is unaware of this outcome a priori,
conserving a moralistic aspect of Homer, the family man, even though, we,
beyond the fourth wall, know better.

So they do this episode once, and without any explanation, or impact on
continuity, and the jokes aren’t even that great. The episode isn’t very
quotable, and has nothing else going for it, aside from the animation, which
everyone does remember.

So, at the time, everyone said they loved this episode, but really the episode
sucked, and rewatchng it decades later, it still sucks. But people remember
the animation, and The Simpsons is animated, so surely this must be a “ _good_
” Simpsons episode. But it’s not.

At the time, I remember a subliminal inkling that if this episode passed
muster, then more bad episodes were on the way, and I was right. The Poochie
episode aired soon after, and I remember watching it at the time, and thinking
to myself: “message received, this show isn’t going to be good anymore, don’t
expect much else going forward... “ and it seems that was interpretted
correctly.

~~~
pavel_lishin
I'm not sure it's a jerkass-Homer episode, and him being at a chili cookoff
makes perfect sense - Homer's two principal qualities are that he's stupid,
and he's gluttonous. Hubris is in there, too, which is why he eats the pepper.

And I remember a few choice quotes from the episode. "This is because I kicked
you, isn't it? "Dogs can't talk! - woof woof - Damn straight." But maybe
that's just nostalgia talking, and the fact that I spent far too much time
watching The Simpsons as a kid.

I see your point, though - I can see how it's a precursor of what happened
later.

------
jayd16
When Phil Hartman died. This was my personal intuition but it fits the data.
The death was in May 98. The episode given as the turning point was Jan 99.

------
paulpauper
I think it's time for it to be cancelled but It's still a money-maker i guess

~~~
tzs
It's not time for it to be cancelled until Fox has something to put in its
place that would be consistently better.

That time is still a long way off.

------
gm-conspiracy
Could this not be better achieved by using/augmenting with writer credits?

------
avar
Is there some website where you can see a good visualization of IMDB or other
ratings across seasons/episodes like that for any show?

------
blacksqr
They were great when they were part of the Tracy Ullman Show. All downhill
from there.

------
gciruelos
i wish the main tool wasn't inside an <iframe>. completely unnecessary

------
tribby
the last truly great episode of the simpsons was season 9, episode 21, "girly
edition," but its rapid decline began in season 8.

------
paulpauper
Hmm but can you really tell how good an episode is by ratings?

~~~
twoodfin
These are IMDB ratings, not viewership ratings.

------
hacker_9
Anecdotally, I never watch the show anymore. Doesn't stop it always seeming to
be on though when I'm channel flicking.

~~~
keganunderwood
I still have great respect for the Simpsons. I think future American TV
history will have a special place for the Simpsons.

