

Ask HN: Review my Startup -- wokhei.com  - JohnIdol
http://www.wokhei.com/

======
midnightmonster
I have advised people to use cheap logo services as a way of getting a decent
first draft--something they can use temporarily or take to a more involved
designer for improvement.

If I pay for a logo (cheap, sure--but also with no opportunity for feedback) I
expect to get (1) ownership, not a license and (2) the source files so some
other designer I hire can improve it (or make it suck worse, or just make it
black and white--doesn't matter, it's _my_ logo).

Re: ownership, if you want to require me to agree to let you display it in
your gallery, that's reasonable. (Even then, if you get pushback, consider an
option to buy my way out of that. If someone's that concerned, just take their
money and put the next one in the gallery.)

~~~
JohnIdol
spot on, very good points - at current stage we have discussions going on the
exact topics you cover. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

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ErrantX
_You can access our services only through a Google Account. Why? Because
virtually everyone has a Google account and this way you don't have to
remember yet another password._

I see the logic in using OpenID for signin. But only google?

Defi9nitely not everyone has a google account (though perhaps your target
audience will have). Also what about the people that do not want to use
Google's services (there are plenty). And if you dont have a Google account
it's a pain to go elsewhere - sign up - then come back.

However.... www.clickpass.com will do exactly the same thing and offers a much
wider range of logins :) (HN here uses it). YOu might want to look into that -
I doubt it will take much to switch to using Clickpass (as the openid sequence
for them is similar to Google I believe)

~~~
JohnIdol
That's why the word _virtually_ is there :-)

Anyway being this a beta release that's exactly the kind of feedback we're
looking for - definitely something worth looking into - thanks!

~~~
ErrantX
haha fair enough :)

I do like the idea - have you seen sites like 99designs? How do you stack up
next to them - not competing / different market, or are you a better
implementation.

I like the "fun" on the site btw :) made me smile to browse around.

~~~
matteo
thanks, we saw that question coming :) We tried to answer in the page about
"what is different about wokhei" with the following 4 points:

-BEGIN-

What is different about Wokhei:

Wokhei is not about endless and complicated revision workflows.

Wokhei is about entrusting designers with the power of surpising the customer.

Wokhei is a game of creativity for both the customer who requests the logo and
the designer who makes it.

Wokhei is a fresh and experimental approach to logo design!

-END-

maybe it should be more visibile cause there have been already a couple of
similar questions. midnightmonster also made a good point above.

~~~
jcrocholl
Run a spell checker on all your content. The results will be surpising. ;-)

~~~
JohnIdol
ahah - I believe you're right

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run4yourlives
I'm not going to comment on the site itself, but I've read through the
comments here and would like to put something forward: You aren't focusing
enough on making this a win for your customer.

I'm a potential customer. Right now, I see a process that limits my input to
next to nothing, won't allow me to make revisions, and after all that, I don't
even own the thing.

As a comparison, for $50 more I can get 4 concepts, two revision rounds and
actual ownership at Logoworks. To me, the choice is clear.

I don't want or mean to disparage you but that is the current mindset of your
potential customer. All I see are wins for you, but not many for them. I think
you need to fix that ratio if you are to be successful.

Good luck to you!

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k0ban
I do represent your target audience, looking for a logo designer right now.

Besides login issue, already mentioned here, i think the video is too long,
you should fit into 30-40 seconds with real example. I am missing portfolio,
so can't estimate quality of the service you are providing.

Anyway I submitted request, will see what will be an outcome.

~~~
JohnIdol
For now (just released the first beta) we only have a slideshow on the home
page - we're working on a gallery though as it's definitely needed.

Good luck with your logo! :)

~~~
k0ban
Slideshow is better than video, and out of 20-30 logos I might like just one.
Comparing to logoworks quite low rate. I wouldn't submit information if I'd
saw this portfolio. Keeping in mind that you need iterations and several logos
to choose from, I don't expect something valuable for me as a result. Of
course we will see, but still ... I wouldn't use this service if found it not
on HN.

Have some idea for you. You have two types of services:

1\. Draw it by yourself - which works, for some people 2\. Services where you
find designer, who will do it for you. But first you need to find a right
designer. This is done or by looking thru portfolio of designers or by
contest, where designers might or might not participate.

So the problem is to find a right designer. This could be done by asking me to
choose several logos to identify what I am looking for a match to the designer
that works in that style. It will save my time to find a right person (since I
can't even formulate how the logo should look like) and save designer's time.

~~~
JohnIdol
Your point is perfectly understandable and certainly represents a wide slice
of the market - which happens not to be the slice of the market we are ideally
targeting.

We don't want to steal customers from logoworks, 99designs or other similar
(very useful & well thought) services; we are trying something new here,
pursuing an experimental approach to logo design, limiting to an extreme the
user input in order to force the customer to get creative with tags - which
could open the door to hopefully surprising results from our designers. That's
the deed - if you're not quite happy you roll the dice and go again if you
want, it's free.

Along the lines of the stir-fried culinary metaphor, we'd like to offer
quality stuff on-the-go. This comes from the need of a category of people (and
you can pull myself in) who don't wanna bother going through revisions and all
that jazz.

This might not be the right service for you, and we won't try to convince you
otherwise. If you're craving for Chinese take-away you won't go to the French
restaurant. If you need a twitter account you won't get yourself a blog. And
so forth.

Said so, your feedback and ideas are certainly constructive and valuable -
thanks!

P.S. The video is known problem (thanks for pointing out). You not liking the
logos in the slideshow ... given the subjectivity of the topic it's bound to
be a discussion with no end! :-)

~~~
k0ban
Got the logo, which had a good concept (idea), but won't fit to mine design
because of colors. So it didn't work for me.

~~~
JohnIdol
The idea here is that if you're not happy with it you can re-submit (there's
no _official_ limit on the number of times you can request the same logo) and
see what happens - Also you can get creative with tags (i.e.
#as_previous_design #no_blue #etc) - being free it won't cost you. You might
wanna give it a shot :-)

------
ckinnan
I've used LogoWorks a few times with success. In every case some revision was
required...most logos are a committee effort so users want to be able to
revise them...it is also nice to get a couple different versions with the
understanding that you can choose to have one polished into a final logo.

Some site feedback: the monitor with rotating logos on the homepage is
somewhat confusing. It looks like there are buttons but it is just a graphic.

The video is cute but it is a little drawn out.

The site branding is strong but may be too unprofessional for the market of
people looking to pay money for a logo. I don't know if focusing it on "web
2.0 logos" or something might help refine and differentiate the site.

Overall it looks cool-- good luck!

------
javery
How is this different then all the other logo creation sites and services out
there? How is it better than using 99designs, etc?

~~~
midnightmonster
You put in your info once, you don't get to give feedback and request changes,
you get one logo at the end--like it or not, and you get it in 24 hours.

These points all make it different from most logo services. Better is another
question.

I didn't find the difference difficult to glean from the site, but it wasn't
obvious to at least a couple people here, so maybe OP still has some work to
do here as far as positioning.

~~~
JohnIdol
I believe you summarize perfectly the main differences.

I may add that as you correctly point out we don't wanna be better than the
others or steal their customers, we're just different - since there's no
service which does exactly what we do (good or bad, your pick).

We ideally offer a conceptually different service, covering needs (as said in
some other comment around) of a category of people who are craving for results
and don't wanna bother with revisions and complicated workflows.

Or at least that's the idea :-)

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davidw
I'd be interested in a nice logo for www.hecl.org , but I would need a BSD
open source license for it. I would be willing to link to you guys, but
probably not shell out the full price for it, since it's an open source
project. Let me know if you're interested.

~~~
JohnIdol
Would the _Wokhei Limited License_ cover your needs? You can use the logo for
free _as is_ as long as you credit Wokhei.

~~~
davidw
I read it, and I don't think so, because I want the logo to be redistributable
under the same terms as Hecl itself.

If it's a problem... no problem:-) No harm in asking though!

~~~
JohnIdol
At the moment this is not possible but you do raise a great point - we were
not thinking about licensing in these terms.

It's definitely great feedback and something to seriously think about -
thanks!

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erikwiffin
You need need need a portfolio. So far all I can see is one logo (yours) and
it's not really the branding I'm looking for.

A portfolio would reassure me that you have a broader range, or that you excel
at doing one kind of logo _really_ well.

~~~
tarelli
there is an animated screen with logos passing by, I supposed that was somehow
their portfolio even if there is no mention of the companies involved. also I
read about a gallery, maybe at some stage some of the logos will endup there.

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aw3c2
Completely Javascript reliant and (for me) painfully slow (the site loads,
then the content flickers into view. A good half second I guess) if I enable
it. Opera 10 beta on Linux.

edit: Actually it takes 4 seconds for the content to appear. And it borks my
navigation-back. I have to press back at least 2 times to actually get back.

Without Javascript, this is your site:
[http://s1.image.gd/o/84/84730e851a4074e1040dcbe659d8f929989a...](http://s1.image.gd/o/84/84730e851a4074e1040dcbe659d8f929989a5afe.png)

~~~
JohnIdol
you're right - being developed in GWT the site is completely javascript
dependent. The problem seems to be that with javascript disabled you're still
getting the content in somewhat of a mangled form --> you shouldn't be getting
any content (just a message), this is obviously not working.

On performance - it's laoding up pretty good on all the browser we've tested,
then again we didn't test on any of the environment you refer to, which makes
your feedback much appreciated. Thanks!

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odvious
Hate to be a stickler, but: "He will prepare your logo in 24hrs!" should be
"They will prepare your logo in 24hrs!"

~~~
tarelli
looks like it's only one chosen designer that will prepare the logo

~~~
akeefer
But you might want to leave open the possibility that designer could be female
(and despite what old-school official grammar books might say, in 2009 I don't
think it's acceptable to use "he" for a gender-neutral pronoun, and "they" is
much less awkward than "he/she")

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symptic
Your video is long and boring. Make it quick and simple; to the point.

~~~
JohnIdol
point taken - that is a common pain point. thanks for the honesty

