
How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party. - jibjab
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/08/01/red_delicious_and_rotten?page=full
======
buddylw
I am no fan of Apple - mainly for their closed architecture, but I am also a
cold-hearted economist when it comes to these types issues and this article is
a bit of a one sided hit piece.

I would like to throw in a few counterpoints so we can all maintain a proper
context.

1.) When companies become as large as Apple and begin purchasing products from
vendors. It is not possible for them to guarantee the safety and operation of
every vendor. Just as when you go buy oranges at the grocery store, you
_might_ know what country or farm it came from, but you don't know working
conditions at that farm. Even if you could know you don't have time to dig
through that info - you just want an orange. You, like everyone else, just
respond to the major media outrages and exposés and blindly avoid Wal-Mart,
etc.

Apple has more leverage here since they are a large company, but when it comes
down to it, Apple ordered more screens and the vendor made the bad decision to
use n-hexane. All Apple can do is lean on the vendor to make it right and not
let it happen again. Believe me, even if Apple hates the workers and secretly
wants them to die a horrible death for their stock holders, they don't want
this bad press and would have avoided it if they could have.

2.) Outsourcing has real costs. It's not just cheaper because labor is
cheaper. When you outsource you have to worry about the government, the
infrastructure, shipping, recruiting talent etc. If you paid the Chinese
workers American wages, it would not be worth the other costs to outsource at
all.

3.) You can't compare living and working conditions between countries. As bad
as a 3rd world outsourced job is to us 1st worlder's it's still generally
BETTER than what they would have otherwise. In fact Apple and other
'outsourcers' are the one and only reason for the breath-taking trend line
that is China's per capita growth:
<http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=china+income+per+capita>

Just read about living in China in the 60s. It's horrifying to even think
about and makes China today seem like paradise. In short the Chinese are
better with Apple than without.

4.) There are not a fixed number of jobs in the world - there are only a fixed
number of resources. If China can make us a product cheaper than we can make
it WE benefit. Our resources are free to build other things for China when
they want to cash in some of those US Dollars they so graciously accepted from
Apple in exchange for real goods. Voluntary trade benefits both parties by its
very nature or it doesn't happen.

Also, the US unemployment issue is bit off the main topic of an already
lengthy comment, but it has much more to do with sticky wages and our past
decisions than it does outsourcing.

5.) Finally you can't not outsource. It's impossible. In this age of
globalization everything is from everywhere. You can't even build a toaster by
yourself:
[http://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toast...](http://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toaster_from_scratch.html)

~~~
naner
_As bad as a 3rd world outsourced job is to us 1st worlder's it's still
generally BETTER than what they would have otherwise. In fact Apple and other
'outsourcers' are the one and only reason for the breath-taking trend line
that is China's per capita growth_

This always seemed like a bullshit argument to me. So it is marginally better
to work 16 hour days in terrible conditions while dumping chemicals in local
groundwater than it is to starve to death. Well, it turns out that overworking
people and polluting is still bad behaviour. These outsourcing companies
shouldn't be commended for it. Provide these people good working conditions
and a safe environment or don't bother outsourcing.

As an analogy, you wouldn't commend me for purchasing a mail-order bride from
a poor country with sex trafficking problems. Yeah, it is marginally better
for her than prostitution and she'll have better living conditions, but my
behavior is still abusive and exploitative.

~~~
forensic
We can't save the world. Even if our entire country voted for it, we could not
save the Chinese from their own policies.

They are adults living in a sovereign nation; they are responsible for their
own working conditions.

I'm not going to feel white-guilt for stuff that happens in a foreign country
over which I have zero control.

~~~
m_eiman
_Even if our entire country voted for it, we could not save the Chinese from
their own policies._

Vote with your wallet. If nobody will buy products produced using awful
methods, they will no longer be produced that way. It's quite simple. Then
you'll say "But everyone else is buying them, so it doesn't matter if I do it
too". To which I say "Don't care about what others are doing, just do the
right thing yourself".

~~~
rimantas
Ok, don't buy the products. Then they are without the jobs. How does it help
exactly?

~~~
Volpe
Yes, because that's how capitalism works! If you don't buy a specific product,
the whole market fails and everyone dies of hunger.

------
mahyarm
The parallels between america vs europe back in the 1800s and china vs america
now are very interesting.

------
wallflower
If you have not read "What is China", read it after:

<http://www.tapsns.com/blog/index.php/2010/01/what-is-china/>

~~~
jackfoxy
Would really like folks who down-voted you to explain themselves. The fact
China (and Russia) are the only supports of North Korea says everything you
need to know about the essence of the rulers of both countries.

~~~
forensic
Well, someone needs to be friends with NK. I don't think China leaning on NK
could really help there. NK would just get more isolated. The solution to
North Korea is to stop scaring them so that they will come out of their shell
a bit.

------
gkanai
Dalai Lama Apple advertisement:

<http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgdaily/4862908782/>

Apple Removes the Dalai Lama From Its Ads in Hong Kong

[http://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/17/world/apple-removes-the-
da...](http://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/17/world/apple-removes-the-dalai-lama-
from-its-ads-in-hong-kong.html)

------
guard-of-terra
I don't understand why your beloved apple won't throw in a $1000 monthly
stipend for neurodamaged workers and close this horrible issue forever.
Financially, it means considerably smaller than for me tossing a poor beggar a
buck, and _I_ do that when I can, even if I'm not a cause of their poorness, I
ain't blamed for their misfortune and I won't be praised if I do.

Also, why won't you Apple users boycott buying Apple until they take care of
the issue in question? Other than being unable to function without the drug
you're addicted to?

~~~
guard-of-terra
It seems that the only reason why capitalistic company would give out money is
fear.

AirBNB is going to fix a problem which is obviously not caused by them because
they are afraid of repercussions. Apple is not afraid of anything, therefore
they're going to sit on a pile of gold like a dragon and that's it.

------
Qa8BBatwHxK8Pu
I hate to read anything about poverty in China. Brings me back to my
childhood.

------
sunyc
most people buy imac then install win 7 it's free anyway..

~~~
sunyc
I'm surprised that people can't sense the irony here, I'm telling the true
situation, btw.

------
martythemaniak
I think it's unfortunate that Apple chooses to not build it's hardware in the
US, or model its manufacturing on Germany's successful mid-size firms.

Apple makes and builds high-end products and has the fat margins that goes
along with it - instead of outsourcing all manufacturing to China, it could
_choose_ to build everything in the US, employ the locals and use that as a
selling point. If I pay premium dollar for quality and durability, I would
rather that support local manufacturing and local economies, than have that
sitting in Apple's vaults. In the end, this is not unlike the the local food
movement - people would rather pay extra and support local farmers and
economies.

~~~
olalonde
> Apple makes and builds high-end products and has the fat margins that goes
> along with it - instead of outsourcing all manufacturing to China, it could
> choose to build everything in the US, employ the locals and use that as a
> selling point.

Why do you assume Americans are more deserving of Apple's manufacturing jobs
than the Chinese?

> If I pay premium dollar for quality and durability, I would rather that
> support local manufacturing and local economies, than have that sitting in
> Apple's vaults.

Unfortunately, the Chinese also pay premium dollar and would also rather
support local manufacturing and local economies. As China is deemed to become
Apple's largest market, it makes sense for Apple to support the Chinese
economy rather than the US one.[1]

[1]
[http://blogs.computerworld.com/18517/apple_crazy_china_will_...](http://blogs.computerworld.com/18517/apple_crazy_china_will_become_biggest_iphone_market)

~~~
technoslut
I do think that Americans are more deserving of products being produced here.
I've always felt (maybe others do not) that you give back something to where
you grew up or the society you are apart of. I see it no different in this
case. Sony has done the same in Japan and I respect them more for it.

There are great benefits to the US market and many, such as Apple, have taken
advantage of it. They also take advantage of the system and keep their money
overseas so it won't get taxed.

~~~
delackner
Wait, what? Sony has mostly abandoned their Japanese production of
Televisions. They are made in China. Maybe you're thinking of Sharp?

~~~
technoslut
Sony still keeps a majority of their factories in Japan.

~~~
delackner
You are right, Sony manufactures a lot of things in Japan. But it also
manufactures many things (including high end televisions and some of its game
consoles) in China. They are quite coy about disclosing what percentage, so I
don't know where you have read the majority come from Japan.

