
“Let’s, Like, Demolish Laundry” - killerdhmo
http://nymag.com/news/features/laundry-apps-2014-5/#print
======
smacktoward
The thing that leapt out at me the most strongly from this article is how
_none of the laundry startups appear to actually do any laundry._ They all
outsource that work to other companies, like the one mentioned in the article,
Wash Then Fold -- companies that tilt heavily towards being run and staffed by
immigrants, who do the actual _work_ involved with cleaning clothes while the
white-kid startups grab the headlines.

That seems like a really precarious position for those startups to be in.
First there's quality-control: the #1 thing that's going to wreck your
relationship with a laundry customer is if you mess up their clothes, and if
all the clothes-handling is outsourced, how much can you do to prevent that
from happening?

And second, if all the value you bring to the table is a thin layer of code
over someone else's service, at some point that someone else will just write
their own app and cut out the middleman. "Climbing the value chain," the MBAs
call it -- start off as a provider of outsourced services to companies whose
executives' noses are too high in the air to do their dirty work themselves
anymore, and then slowly shoulder those companies out of the way by
establishing direct relationships with their customers at a lower cost. It's a
strategy Asian hardware OEMs have been pursuing with success for decades --
there's no shortage of people who used to be IBM and Dell customers who are
Lenovo and Asus customers now.

~~~
freehunter
The problem with your suggestion that these laundry companies will write their
own app is that they probably won't. They're probably eking out a small
profit, and adding the cost of hiring a programmer as well as technical
customer service and delivery drivers massively out of their reach. What makes
me say this? Well, are there any nationwide dry cleaning chains? What is the
markup on dry cleaning? How successful are the best dry cleaning shops? And,
as mentioned, they lean towards being run and staffed by immigrants. They can
make a living, but I would doubt it affords them enough of an income to run a
silicon-valley startup.

~~~
guelo
The difference between the established small business and these startup
"businesses" is that the startups are well-connected, usually young white
males, that get access to Sillicon Valley's Wall Street money spigot. They
don't have to worry about such mundane things as profit so they can try to
take over a market and destroy hundreds of small businesses that were
bootstrapped slowly over years of toil. If the small businesses somehow were
able to get access to free investment money I'm sure they could also come up
with creative ways to expand since they know their market well.

~~~
QuantumChaos
How could they destroy hundreds of small businesses, if they themselves were
not profitable?

It seems like you want to have your cake and eat it. You want to criticize
these guys for out-competing small businesses, but you also want to claim they
aren't really doing good business, that they are just wasting their investor's
money.

~~~
mikeyouse
> How could they destroy hundreds of small businesses, if they themselves were
> not profitable?

Not OP, but small businesses have to use operating margins to make payroll and
pay for capital goods. 'Startups', through what essentially boils down to
predatory pricing, can burn through investor cash to acquire customers leaving
the entire market at a loss.

NYMag actually does a decent job explaining it a bit:

[http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/04/problem-with-
pr...](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/04/problem-with-profitless-
start-ups.html)

~~~
QuantumChaos
This is based on the unjustifiable assumption that the author knows better
than the VC's and other investors. In particular, the author somehow knows
that these company's won't be able to turn a profit, even though the VC's and
investors surely believe the company will.

~~~
gamblor956
It's not based on the presumption that the author knows better than the VCs.
It's based on the very real fact that profitless VC-funded startups are
competing based on unsustainable prices with the goal of raising prices in the
future once their competition has been starved out.

It's market manipulation (but not the type that rises to the level of
impermissible market manipulation).

~~~
QuantumChaos
It's easy to make this allegation, but very hard to substantiate it, since
there are many factors that influence profit, and just because a company isn't
profitable now, doesn't mean that the only way they can become profitable is
by starving out their competition and then raising prices. Can you give a
single instance of a venture backed startup actually causing price increases
after driving out their competition?

~~~
alextgordon
Amazon epitomises this.

~~~
QuantumChaos
How does Amazon empitomise this? What goods have they raised the prices of
(and why I say raise, I mean relative to the price before Amazon, not that
Amazon merely increased their own prices).

~~~
olefoo
You might want to take a look at
[http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/23/amazons-tactics-
con...](http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/23/amazons-tactics-confirm-its-
critics-worst-suspicions/)

It certainly seems like Amazon is beginning to exercise their strength as a
monopsony to gain unfair advantages and extend their business into new areas
without actually competing on merits.

~~~
QuantumChaos
I don't see how a single instance of Amazon misusing their monopoly power,
equates to price rises across the board. So far I imagine the overall affect
of Amazon has been to reduce consumer prices.

~~~
alextgordon
Amazon tends to (ab)use their monopoly power through things like shipping
costs.

As an emporium of everything, Amazon already has a distinct advantage. Even if
prices are higher on Amazon than other e-commerce sites, it makes sense for me
to use Amazon because I can get 2, 3, 4 products shipped at once. That can be
a big saving.

Additionally, Amazon subsidised widespread free shipping on low-ticket items
for many years, in the UK they have only recently gotten rid of it[1].

That free shipping policy, while great for consumers in the short term, did
starve out a lot of their competition.

And of course, the larger Amazon gets, the better shipping rates they can
negotiate. My orders are now delivered to me by a "Amazon Logistics". It seems
they've finally achieved full vertical integration.

[1]:
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23423305](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23423305)

------
vilhelm_s
My favourite line was

> They chose the name ninjas in part to signify the company’s relationship to
> Silicon Valley, where the title is handed out freely.

Just like Canadian engineers complain about the term "software engineer", I
hope there is some remote Japanese ninja clan grumbling that "these guys
didn't even pass the ninja board exam!"

~~~
sjtrny
Canadian engineers?

~~~
patmcc
In Canada, "engineer" is a very specific title that refers to someone who is
licensed as a professional engineer, including all the degree requirements,
testing, vetting, etc. that go along with that. It's quite similar to "doctor"
or "lawyer" in that way.

To call yourself an engineer you need an Engineering degree from a qualified
institution (4 or 5 years), at least 2 years of apprenticeship (effectively),
and to pass a difficult examination.

They're not typically huge fans of people who haven't done those things
calling themselves "sanitation engineers" or "software engineers" instead of
"janitors" and "programmers". The argument I usually hear is that it
undermines their profession; people can hold the work of an engineer to a
particular standard. If suddenly I can say "oh, I'm a software engineer"
without anything backing that up, it damages the reputation of "engineer" if I
behave poorly.

~~~
r-s
As a software "Developer" in Canada who does some work in the USA with the
title Software Engineer this is a constant struggle which I seem to constantly
have to explain.

Unfortunately some higher ups don't seem to understand what the title engineer
means. I have a formal comp sci education and I have heard things like "We
can't pay you $x, you aren't even an engineer!".

Walk into an interview with a ring on your pinky (I am serious) and you have
an edge on the field.

~~~
tinkerdol
What does a ring on your pinky do?

~~~
jcd748
The iron ring is a Canadian engineering tradition. The original ones were made
from iron from a bridge that collapsed and killed a lot of people. It's worn
as a reminder of what a few miscalculations or oversights can do.

------
noonespecial
Up next, the Airbnb of the Uber of laundry! Connecting people who do laundry
to those who need it done. It all comes back around to mom doing your laundry.
It just doesn't have to be _your_ mom anymore.

------
IgorPartola
> We are living in a time of Great Change, and also a time of Not-So-Great
> Change. The tidal wave of innovation that has swept out from Silicon Valley,
> transforming the way we communicate, read, shop, and travel, has carried
> along with it an epic shit-ton of digital flotsam. Looking around at the
> newly minted billionaires behind the enjoyable but wholly unnecessary
> Facebook and WhatsApp, Uber and Nest, the brightest minds of a generation,
> the high test-scorers and mathematically inclined, have taken the knowledge
> acquired at our most august institutions and applied themselves to solving
> increasingly minor First World problems. The marketplace of ideas has become
> one long late-night infomercial. Want a blazer embedded with GPS technology?
> A Bluetooth-controlled necklace? A hair dryer big enough for your entire
> body? They can be yours! In the rush to disrupt everything we have ever
> known, not even the humble crostini has been spared.

This. It feels like we are just trying to solve the smallest problems that
will make us millionaires. With the resources available, why not tackle
something a bit more fundamental than laundry?

~~~
jorleif
It may come as a surprise to people who read lots of startup news, because you
tend to only hear about the successes, but generally it is not very easy to
disrupt any business, or even become a millionaire. Achieving those for e.g.
laundry might not make the world a much better place, but it is still quite an
achievement.

The other side of this "wholly unnecessary"-business, is that with rising
standards of living, necessities are already fairly well provided for, so it
is quite obvious that any future desired consumer good will be mostly in the
unnecessary category. A funny read about these types of things is "The Idea of
Luxury: A Conceptual and Historical Investigation" by Christopher J. Berry,
where he describes 18th century philosophers discussing what is luxury (i.e
unnecessary) and what is necessity. They end up with a paradoxical example
regardning the scant clothing of "savages" (that is non-europeans in warmer
climates), and cannot resolve the fact that despite this clothing being really
primitive by their standards, it is not strictly necessary for survival, or
even most other activities, so they must conclude that even that is just
luxury.

~~~
IgorPartola
But this stuff applies only in the narrow echo chamber of SF, LA, NYC, etc.
Fresh water is a necessity, and more people don't have that than will ever be
a customer of Washio. I am all for people innovating anything and everything,
but let's put things into perps practice: this particular service provides a
luxury version of an already luxury service for the richest parts of the
world.

------
peterwwillis
This 'hedonic treadmill' reminds me of the constant battle i'm in to reduce
the bullshit I don't need in my life. It started with canceling my cable
service and terminating my Xbox Live subscription. Later it led to giving away
all my furniture and moving, only taking as much crap as I could fit in my car
(and a bike _on_ the car).

Now i'm feeling the creep of excess crap again. Entertainment systems I don't
use. Drawers of clothes and shoes, racks of jackets and suits I don't wear. A
small mountain of various bags, boxes, knick-knacks, toys and other junk I
haven't looked at in 6 months. I tried to live without a smartphone for a few
months but it was just too fucking convenient, and CHEAP at $70 cash! I'm back
on the Android again.

Why is this seemingly the fate of all modern industrialized middle-class
Americans? Like George Carlin said, a house is basically just a place to keep
all our stuff. But why we need all that stuff, while the majority of the world
doesn't seem to be so materially obsessed, I used to think was anyone's guess.
Now i'm starting to think the hedonic treadmill might be a kind of social
disease that needs to be treated more seriously.

~~~
XorNot
I have tons of stuff - it's spare parts and materials to make other stuff. I
never want to throw anything out until it's a tangled pile of shredded debris
if I can avoid it.

The alternative is just blunt consumerism - assuming I can buy things when I
need them, and constantly being at the mercy of price-gouging suppliers.

I don't even know why you'd reach the conclusion that you shouldn't have
useful things - i.e. a smartphone.

~~~
peterwwillis
> I don't even know why you'd reach the conclusion that you shouldn't have
> useful things

A lot of things are useful. I'm sure there's a gadget out there that will wipe
my ass for me and tell me what I had for dinner. Doesn't mean I need it,
though. I think a simpler life is probably a happier one, and the things we
find useful are often just used against us in some way or another. Instead of
focusing on the things we could have that would make our lives better, perhaps
we should focus on what truly matters and try not to use anything we don't
need? Just an idea anyway.

~~~
lmm
You could spend every waking hour hunting and growing food, doing no more than
you need, but that's not my idea of a fun life. If I can buy or make a tool
that means I spend less time doing something boring/unpleasant and can instead
spend that time doing things I enjoy, why wouldn't I? I don't know where
you're getting this "simpler life is probably a happier one" idea from, the
evidence from international happiness surveys is quite strongly against that.

~~~
peterwwillis
I don't think anyone should spend all their life working to survive. Also,
most people who live a simple life probably aren't doing it by choice; they're
probably too poor to afford modern industrial society's conveniences. A simple
life by choice is probably happier than a simple life by unintentional
consequence.

My idea of a fun life has evolved over time. I used to think drinking beer,
eating pizza and playing video games was the pinnacle of human achievement.
Now I try to practice zen laundry.

It's hard to get myself to do the things that I don't feel like doing. But
when I actually start doing them, an amazing thing happens. Doing laundry
becomes a tiny meditative practice. I stop and consider every action of what
i'm doing, and focus just on the one task at hand. The rest of the world melts
away.

What would I be doing if I had someone pick it up and drop it off? Probably
watching hulu, or going to a bar, or I don't know, wandering around looking
for entertainment. When i'm doing laundry, I am _actually living_ , doing
something transformative and applying myself to a life skill that can only
improve with time. It's finding meaning in the things that I need to do in
life, and afterwards, when I finally do that relaxation activity, I appreciate
both more.

~~~
lmm
> What would I be doing if I had someone pick it up and drop it off? Probably
> watching hulu, or going to a bar, or I don't know, wandering around looking
> for entertainment. When i'm doing laundry, I am actually living, doing
> something transformative and applying myself to a life skill that can only
> improve with time.

I'm not sure I see the difference. Plenty of hobbies involve learning and
improving at that hobby.

~~~
peterwwillis
It's not a huge difference really. You can find meaning in a hobby, sure. But
it's harder and more interesting to find meaning in little things. Like
breathing. Have you ever stopped and considered how fucking crazy it is that
we breathe? Or eating. If all you had left in the world were ten grains of
rice, imagine how much more incredible that rice would seem, or how much more
you would taste and feel it. Hobbies are fine, but they aren't the core value
of the video game of your life; they're just expansion packs.

~~~
lilsunnybee
If you only have 10 grains of rice you are going to die of starvation.

------
normloman
Admittedly, it's unfair to print the quotes without editing out "like". Most
people fill empty space in their speech with "like", "um", or some variant.
And most reporters edit them out from quotes, to keep their sources from
sounding like total morons.

That said, if you're running a business described as "uber for laundry",
hiring "ninjas", and paling around with Mila Kunis and Ashton Kutcher, you've
already forfeited the right to be taken seriously by anyone.

~~~
enraged_camel
I thought Kunis and Kutcher are actually decent people? Why is hanging out
with them a problem?

~~~
normloman
It doesn't matter how nice they are. It's still pretty surreal to be talking
to them about your laundry delivery app. At that point, you realize how absurd
your life has become, and give up any hope of being taken seriously.

------
Jmetz1
Hi All, Jordan, CEO of Washio, here. Happy to answers any questions.

~~~
jpatokal
Did you realize that the article was going to be such a hit piece? And do you
agree with his implication that the "laundry space" is bubblier than an
overflowing washing machine?

------
stevetjoa
I like wash.io. I can't afford to use it every time (I think I've used it only
three times so far?), but each instance left me satisfied. I find it
especially useful for wash+press and dry cleaning where the alternative is to
bring your clothes to a dry cleaner -- not convenient without a car.

A good strategy is to wash towels and pants yourself (these are heavier and
therefore costlier to wash, and relatively easy to fold and put away
yourself), and give the shirts and jackets to wash.io to wash, press, and
fold.

------
kgin
I wonder if they realized how much of a hit piece this was going to be.

~~~
killerdhmo
I have to assume they didn't know. I assumed it was all fiction until I
started looking up these companies.

~~~
twfarland
I still have trouble believing it isn't (very dedicated) satire.

~~~
_random_
They even have an .io domain...

------
mmanfrin
(I dont mean to nitpick one paragraph, but: )

> "One Wednesday morning this spring, after staff at Washio had gathered for
> their daily “stand-up” meeting—a ritual suggested in the Manifesto for Agile
> Software Development, a 2001 work-­processes manual that advocates keeping
> employees on their toes by having them give status updates literally on
> their feet"

What an absurdly overwritten way of saying 'at their morning meeting'.

~~~
md224
Eh, I think you're thinking about this sentence as an engineer and not a
writer. The author wants to draw you into the philosophy of software
development, with its mix of processes and productivity hacks; the elaboration
in that sentence serves to paint a more vivid picture of the tech work
environment. Of course, we already know all this, but many readers from
outside our field may find these descriptions illuminating.

~~~
cgriswald
As I writer, I feel the author is painting a picture that has been painted a
thousand times before. In that particular paragraph, the additional material
dominates the paragraph at the expense of the main point (which itself is
strangely spread over a block of paragraphs).

As a reader I felt my time was wasted. Some explanation was in order, but I
did not need to know the origin of the technique. "Work-process manual" is
snooze-inducing.

Rewritten:

This spring, after staff at Washio had gathered for their daily "stand-up"
meeting–in which employees are kept on their toes by giving status updates
literally on their feet–operations manager San Nadler broke some bad news.

This draws the reader a bit into the meeting and explains what is meant by a
"stand-up meeting" without bogging the reader down in details or the
"philosophy of software development." If that philosophy was important for the
author to communicate, it really deserves its own paragraph.

~~~
ameister14
Except that it implies that stand-up meetings actually work to keep employees
on their toes figuratively. In the first version, it's more of an implication
that this is what the manual says and this company is just trying to build a
business like you would a table.

~~~
forgottenpass
In that case, I still agree with the parent. Either it's not important so
don't mention it, or dedicate a paragraph taking standups to task for being
agile cargo cult bullshit.

------
brian_cloutier
This author is almost showing off, they can be funny on demand.

First they front load with some great jabs at startups and the hedonic nature
of man to get you interested, then call back to them just before they expect
you to get bored.

The pacing is a little slow near the end, but otherwise the writing here is
quite good.

------
mmcclure
I used Prim a few times, then they called it quits. At some point during the
article I figured I'd see what they'd done with the Prim domain and found...a
fully functional Prim.

At first I thought I had just imagined it had gone under, but apparently not:
[http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/06/prim-laundry-shuts-
down/](http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/06/prim-laundry-shuts-down/). Seems
strange to not, you know, email your customers again if you decide to
resurrect a product.

~~~
bunkat
It doesn't seem like they really did resurrect it. Typing in any zip code
results in "Sorry - Prim is not accepting any new customers. Thanks for
visiting"

------
curmudgeon224
My advice: As long as the VC's want to subsidize bad business models that
cater to narrow markets, I say, take advantage of it while you can cuz it
ain't gonna last forever.

------
localhost3000
We've had this in Boston for literally 10 years: Garment Valet (started by
Northeastern undergrads as Husky Express). Great service. "Uber for laundry"
before Uber. Surprised they weren't mentioned. Nothing new here.

------
jobial88
There's another earlier-stage one in NYC that I've used a couple times called
LaundryPuppy -- guess they missed out on the article. What I think's
interesting about those guys as opposed to Wash.io etc is they partner more
closely with specific mom and pop cleaners (more like delivery.com), so the
prices feel a bit more reasonable. Also, seems like they ditched the app in
favor of SMS, which is sort of unconventional today but actually not terrible
for laundry.

------
ktf
Reminds me of a real-life version of something from Pynchon's _Bleeding Edge_
\-- inching toward parody, but still believable. (In this case, unlike in the
novel, because it's actually true...)

------
daktanis
"Making the wold a better place."

------
knocte
wow, super expensive, I still prefer to do the laundry myself...

------
dinkumthinkum
Why does it seem like Washio paid for this article. ? I imagine they did not
but it just seems odd.

~~~
Pxtl
Really? The whole article had such a thick layer of sarcasm and derision about
the whole start-up world it's hard to imagine any start-up paying for this.

~~~
dinkumthinkum
I guess, I admit I didn't read the whole thing. It seemed like a typical
startup worskup TechCrunch type so I have up half way in.

