
Ask HN: Toxic employee that has a founder ear - terrenceJoe
We are a medium-sized startup that is going through some difficult times. Most difficulties are not due to a lack of funding though. It&#x27;s a people problem: there is a couple of old-timers who essentially have CEO&#x27;s ear and behave like small children. Yelling and swearing at meetings, forcing certain people to be fired, that kind of stuff. Basically they are untouchable; their engineering skills are mediocre at best but they think they&#x27;re really important for company&#x27;s success, and they made our CEO believe that as well. In reality, the whole engineering team has serious morale issues due to that irresponsible behavior.<p>Did anyone experience anything similar? Any tips on how to handle this situation?
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dc17
The real problem is not a couple of old-timers. I think the true issue is CEO.
It looks like your CEO achieved his level of skills and he doesn't grow with a
company. That guys are only result of this. So if you can't change a CEO, just
leave this company.

~~~
mobiuscog
Exactly this. We have some old-timers and new-recruits that are the same - all
have the 'ear' and encourage stupid decisions that constantly make things
worse.

Whilst those who are listened to should hold some responsibility, the main
problem is the perons listening and not paying attention.

Just like any potentially rotten relationship, don't believe you can change it
- move on.

------
bootload
_" It's a people problem: there is a couple of old-timers who essentially have
CEO's ear and behave like small children. Yelling and swearing at meetings,
forcing certain people to be fired, that kind of stuff."_*

Toxic.

I was watching/listening to Christine Porath talking about this dynamic
yesterday. Watch "How incivility shuts down our brains at work" [0] to
understand how incivility destroys your performance, motivation in startups
and robs your cognitive resources.

[0] 8.24min, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoT-
nmSdAOs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoT-nmSdAOs)

~~~
terrenceJoe
Very good points in the talk, but is there really a way to fight this
incivility? We tried to talk to the people involved, but it didn't really
work: these old-timers are pretty efficient at smooth talk and making people
believe they mean well for the company. But if you have 1:1 with almost any
engineer, they tell you they are burned out and demoralized because of that
widespread toxicity.

~~~
bootload
_" is there really a way to fight this incivility?"_

In RL? I dunno. I say this because the dynamics b/w employer and employee
isn't equal. When I choose to work with ppl, the no-arsehole rule applies.
This type of situation you describe is probably #1 problem pg describes in
non-technical problems that destroy startups.

What I do know is defusing situations is important. You cannot reason with ppl
who are aggravated. I suspect reasoning isn't on your perps minds. This (overt
attention seeking, interrupting) could be seen as a tactic to garner
resources.

------
NetTechM
The "Good old boy" club is hard to overcome. I would suggest sending your
resume out to some headhunters and when they send back some offers, go ahead
and present your case to the CEO. At worst, you get a fresh start at a new
job. Best case, he listens and kicks the other two to the curb.

------
pjc50
Your options are organise or quit.

If it was just you, quit now. If they can "force people to be fired", you have
no chance. But if "the whole engineering team has problems with these guys",
can you get them to sign a letter of complaint? I mean a physical letter with
physical signatures on it. Obviously the whole thing should be organised off
email/Slack etc, as you can't assume confidentiality.

The letter should basically imply (but _not_ baldly state) that there is a
risk of the team quitting en masse if this is not dealt with. This will
obviously destroy the company. You have to be willing to do that in order to
make the power imbalance work here.

Your demands need to be specific and actionable. I don't think that you can
ask that they be fired, but you need to enumerate the toxic behaviour and call
it out so it can be monitored.

(I'm sure someone on HN will turn up to defend the right of employees to be
toxic and for organisations to not have codes of conduct ...)

------
JSeymourATL
> they made our CEO believe that as well.

Do you have _any_ influence at all with the CEO? Can you manage-up?

It's lonely at the top. He may be completely unaware of your perspective and
how to solve the team morale issue.

------
_RPM
Reading this thread gives me anxiety. I had to stop.

------
guda
I agree with most people here, just leave as soon as you can. This is a war
you can't win but have several ways to "loose".

------
nontoxic
I took a job as VP of Engineering at a company where this kind of thing was
going on.

The guy was on my team. He acted totally inappropriate toward women, made
horrible homophobic and lewd comments all the time, insulted the brand and
brand creative, intimidated and antagonized others, etc. Toward me he acted
officious and friendly, but was not aware that I observed his actual behavior
several times from a room adjacent to the open floor plan.

When I talked to the founder/CEO about it I realized she was not willing to
discuss any deficiencies in his conduct. I was also at the office late one
night and she IM'ed him (seemingly while intoxicated) and flirted with him
extensively. I was also pressured by the founder to promote him into some sort
of leadership role.

After seeing how he intimidated people (particular junior developers, QA team,
etc.) I felt he was not well-suited for a leadership role. He also stirred up
trouble and did his best to create a clique and make fun of several people on
the team who challenged his technical opinions.

I documented all these concerns with HR and encouraged the harassment victims
to make an official complaint about one of the incidents. I explained that it
was a tough situation because of the founder's loyalty to him, and that while
I was hoping he'd find another job I was sure it would reflect poorly on me if
he quit.

The most surprising thing was how his approach (arrogance, hyper-confidence,
indignation, loud speaking voice) made nearly all the non-technical people in
the organization convinced he was a world class technologist. In reality he
had pretty poor technical judgment and many fairly counter-productive
prejudices which he was convinced were best-practices. His disdain for QA led
to most of the embarrassing bugs the company had suffered, often because of
his boorish intimidation of the QA team and disregard for process.

Occasionally he'd show me his code and seem to be seeking approval. He was
actually quite insecure and so I tried to give him whatever positive feedback
I could. He also claimed to have gotten the past two VPEs fired and threatened
to do the same to me.

I realized the situation was bad but figured it wasn't worth playing games to
try to "win" when the founder had pretty poor judgment about his conduct and
character.

Overall he cost the company millions in lost productivity, and I recently
realized he is now the VP of Engineering there. The company has peaked and is
now in a mode of loss-mitigation and likely fairly small existence as a going
concern that would probably have been better off as a small business and not a
VC funded growth machine.

Lessons Learned:

\- Decide what is worth fighting for: While being good at politics is a useful
skill, is the company worth it? Do you want to win to be part of something you
ultimately don't respect?

\- Life is too short: If you or others on the team are experiencing stress and
burn-out, think of all the other jobs and teams you could be working on that
would leave you feeling inspired and productive at the end of the day.

\- The founder may not deserve your help: Bad judgement in one area likely
indicates bad judgment in a host of areas. This happens to be the one you are
most aware of. When a company gets angel funding it gains a salesperson, and
so on through each round. So just because this company has capital does not
mean it deserves it, only that each salesperson wants to find the next buyer.

\- Take what you can: If you do respect some people on the team, get to know
them and prepare to bring them wherever you go next. Talent is scarce, and the
relationships you make will help you populate your next team with great
people.

\- Last point: If you work with a founder you can't have a frank conversation
with (either because he/she is aloof, busy, or otherwise) consider leaving.
Too much is at stake to waste your life working to help build the dream of
someone who is so out of touch.

~~~
dpeck
|The most surprising thing was how his approach (arrogance, hyper-confidence,
indignation, loud speaking voice) made nearly all the non-technical people in
the organization convinced he was a world class technologist. In reality he
had pretty poor technical judgment and many fairly counter-productive
prejudices which he was convinced were best-practices. His disdain for QA led
to most of the embarrassing bugs the company had suffered, often because of
his boorish intimidation of the QA team and disregard for process.

I've seen this several times and I cannot get my head around it. It is easily
one of the most dissapointing things I've encountered professionally. As much
as I can figure knowledge workers are just a market for lemons and it's all
luck of the draw if you have to deal with one or not and no amount of proof
you put forward will convince others that someone is a lemon. Doubly true if
the person you're trying to convince has invested their ego in them at all.

------
thefastlane
like everyone is saying, just quit. you've only got one life to live.

------
youarescrewed
Yes, I have experienced this before. Quit now and save yourself months of
agony. Even if you somehow win this battle, you're still going to lose the
'CEO is an idiot' war.

Let me repeat this again: QUIT NOW. Save yourself the pain. You have already
lost because you work for an idiot. Don't throw good money after bad.

~~~
moomin
Run, don't walk, towards the exit. Hang around for exactly as long as it takes
you to find a soft landing. Or quit this second if your finances and
reputation support that.

