
Noisy Coworkers And Other Sounds Are A Distraction In Workplace - xweb
http://www.npr.org/2016/10/26/498850659/what-s-more-distracting-than-a-noisy-coworker-not-much
======
pklausler
The problem with open office plans is that it takes just _one_ noisy person to
spoil it for everybody. If managed carefully and actively, they can work -- it
just takes an manager willing to correct bad behavior or send sick people
home.

Where I work, I have a budding tupperware percussionist, three imminent
victims of whooping cough, some parents managing high-maintenance offspring
over cell phones, and one guy who conducts teleconferences with his desk
phone. So I often sneak off to empty conference rooms with a laptop if I'm
trying to concentrate.

~~~
speeder
I have ADHD, meaning that open office is great to distract me...

But also, one of the symptons of ADHD, with the "H" there, is that people must
move, in my particular case one of the things I tend to do is tap my nails on
the desk, use tupperware as drums, or if a actual musical instrument is
nearby, even if I dunno how to play it, I play it.

So, ADHD person in open office not only has terrible productivity due to other
people disrupting, but also disrupts everyone else.

To me this is terrible, since now that I know all this (and I've been fired
multiple times), I've been trying, and failing, to find remote work.

~~~
brazzledazzle
One important thing to note for people reading this is that hyperactivity
doesn't always persist into adulthood with the other symptoms or is greatly
reduced and is often turned inward (mental fidgeting).

As far as your firings go, if you haven't watched this video and/or read this
doctor's books they really help with understanding exactly what you're dealing
with: [https://youtu.be/SCAGc-rkIfo](https://youtu.be/SCAGc-rkIfo)

It's long but worth watching at faster playback speed and in manageable
chunks. Key takeaways: "Attention deficit" is less of a symptom and more of a
measurable consequence of other symptoms: Impaired inhibition/impulse control,
excessive irrelevant activity and impaired persistence (think discipline).
Once you understand why you fail you can start addressing or working around
your gaps, particularly the ones that any medication you may be on fail to
address.

~~~
daodedickinson
video not found?

~~~
brazzledazzle
Oops, edited. Thanks. It's [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCAGc-
rkIfo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCAGc-rkIfo)

~~~
taneq
Very interesting video, thanks!

I just got up to the part where he basically says that people with ADHD
basically don't have an inner monologue. Is that right? If so why have I never
heard this before?

~~~
Joof
That sound horrendously wrong. Maybe for certain things we don't notice, but I
have an inner monologue nearly 100% of the time (alongside other types of
thought).

~~~
taneq
Yeah, a few seconds' web searching returns legions of diagnosed ADHD people
with highly energetic inner monologues. It does kind of throw some doubt on
the rest of the talk, given that he essentially says that ADHD is _caused_ by
the lack of inner voice leading to a lack of executive function and inability
to control responses to stimuli.

~~~
brazzledazzle
I believe the theory is that the inner voice is delayed or diminished, not
removed entirely. It's been some time since I watched it but I assume he's
using hyperbole or generalizing for the audience. This is a talk for parents
to understand their kids.

In his papers and books he argues that the inner voice is essentially broken
because it's either incapable of helping regulate behavior and/or doesn't
manifest itself during the decision making process. Executive function and its
various components are impaired, delayed or not working together the way they
should.

------
Matachines
Another thread where most commenters will advocate for remote work and/or
private offices. I agree.

Dan Luu recently said this about Peopleware, which advocates for offices and
is highly regarded:

> This book seemed convincing when I read it in college. It even had all sorts
> of studies backing up what they said. No deadlines is better than having
> deadlines. Offices are better than cubicles. Basically all devs I talk to
> agree with this stuff.

> But virtually every successful company is run the opposite way. Even
> Microsoft is remodeling buildings from individual offices to open plan
> layouts. Could it be that all of this stuff just doesn’t matter that much?
> If it really is that important, how come companies that are true believers,
> like Fog Creek, aren’t running roughshod over their competitors?

> This book agrees with my biases and I’d love for this book to be right, but
> the meta evidence makes me want to re-read this with a critical eye and look
> up primary sources.

\--

What's HN opinions?

~~~
MaysonL
Same reasons that C/C++/Java/Javascript beat all the better languages. Pop
culture.

~~~
user5994461
C and c++ were close to the only language available some 10-30 years ago.
There is still lot of legacy to work on.

Java is superior to everything else. Go and C# only came in much later.

Javascript is the only language supported by browsers.

It's not pop culture, there are real historical and practical reasons for them
to be where they are.

------
Futurebot
I've worked in a private office, small shared-office, cube farms, open plan,
and remote. What I've always thought was a good mix was:

\- Developers (and sometimes others that need quietude, like art/graphics
people) get either a private office each or a shared, developer-only office

\- Marketing and sales that need constant communication / thrive on motion and
energy get open plans

\- A mix of full-on conference rooms and small, private phone/meeting rooms

\- Account managers, finance, managers get their own space, which can be cubes
or shared offices.

Putting people who need to concentrate in with people whose job is to
constantly talk and/or socialize is a recipe for (asymmetrically) poor
productivity. The fact that office designs are sometimes dictated by the
vicissitudes of management fads and a misguided desire to save money by just
building one-size-fits-all layouts, even though a good design will pay for
itself many times over, is very unfortunate.

~~~
mgkimsal
And yet, most places I've seen inside, it's the opposite on those top two
points.

Dev/creative folks are in bullpen/open areas Marketing/sales get private
offices

Justification I got a couple times was the sales people need to talk numbers,
and that needs to be private. Cynically, I think they don't want anyone else
(like devs) overhearing the (over)promising that's done, or hear/witness some
of the desperation when things are going bad. Also, was told once that having
your sales guy talk on a phone in an open office will make it sound like
they're in a boiler-room situation, and lose credibility.

Fine - give everyone private/closed spaces, and give shared workspaces
available to those who need it when they need it.

Still amazes me that people will pay $100k+ for 'jr-mid' level folks in some
areas, but cram them in bullpens because "cost".

~~~
biztos
I'm late to this thread, and just kind of thinking out loud, but I wonder if
this would work:

Give programmers _tiny_ private offices -- enough to physically do the
computer-interaction part of programming in comfort -- and have a big central
open space with big tables and some of the normal lounge stuff.

Ergo: you can "go off to code" and have privacy; but you would have a physical
as well as social incentive to also spend time with your colleagues.

~~~
test1235
Isn't that Google's model with their little developer sheds? Or do they not do
that anymore?

~~~
biztos
I don't know, I've never heard anything about that. Guess I'll have to ask a
Googler, since when I tried googling it I just found a lot of brogrammers in
open-plan cult settings. :-/

I saw something a lot like this in a coworking space in Santa Monica once but
of course the goal was very different.

------
ritchiea
I will never understand why this is such a point of contention on HN and why
it isn't accepted that some people legitimately prefer open office plans while
others prefer quiet. And even more practical and intelligent would be to offer
different kinds of spaces so that people can choose where to work based on a
particular mood. But instead we just get weekly complaints about open offices.

I'm probably more productive in a quiet private office space but is the point
of my work solely to be most productive in the role I have right now? I
organically absorb more information about the company working in an open
office. That information can have a valuable impact on my work. I end up
organically sharing ideas with my co-workers more often in an open office. And
in terms of long term happiness I don't want to spend every moment of every
day alone coding. There's a balance to be struck.

~~~
harveywi
Probably because people do not get to choose. The end result can have awful
consequences for many people in various aspects of their life that should not
be affected by their work environment, the most benign of which is
demoralization.

~~~
mwfunk
Yep. Its also asymmetric- people who like open plans can be 100% productive in
an office, but that doesn't apply the other way around. Also, IME the biggest
proponents of open plans among engineers tend to be people who WANT to pester
their coworkers all the time (either because they get bored and want to chat
all the time, or because they have a hair trigger for asking other people for
help rather than just looking stuff up in documentation).

------
nisse72
I am currently working in a very crowded open office. We have small desks
where we sit almost elbow to elbow, the place is all hard surfaces (it's an
old industrial building made into office space), and there is a fair amount of
noise.

But none of this would bother me except for the fact that one senior person
has decided to have speakers installed in the ceiling, and we have to listen
to non-stop spotify playing top 40 or whatever, all day every day.

The constant music drives me insane, it just drones on and on. I wear noise
cancelling headphones with rain sounds to drown it out but I don't like
wearing headphones all day and it hinders collaborating with my neighbours. I
can't tell if management is clueless or simply does not give a toss. Probably
both.

~~~
digler999
If you don't like them, and you have no hope of using direct methods, you
might be able to turn them in to either spotify or ASCAP. I think they might
need a special license to play music for more than one person. It's dirty and
it's snitching, but it might make your problem go away.

~~~
nisse72
I would love to do that, but even though my opinion is shared by possibly 80%
of the staff here I would also be the prime suspect since I've been quite
outspoken about it. In fact there's a note on the back of the amplifier
telling me specifically to keep my hands off the speaker cables! (They have
been unplugged on a few occasions, but not by me).

My manager is sympathetic but powerless. However we're expecting some major
changes soon so I am cautiously hopeful, but I'm also keeping my eyes open for
other opportunities in my area. This will sort itself one way or another.

~~~
keithpeter
Suggestion: you and the rest of the 80% arrange to wear headphones all the
time for one day. (No need to have any sound in the headphones) and conduct
all exchanges via email/internal messaging. Sort of silent protest?

Might get the message through...

------
alistproducer2
The open office revolution needs to die. I don't like wearing headphones all
day, but I also don't like hearing 30 people's conversations either.

I had a (old) guy that used to sit in my area who would argue with his manager
in person and argue (loudly) with everyone he was on the phone with (including
his wife).

He got moved a couple of months ago and there were no tears shed.

~~~
keithpeter
Did he get moved to a smaller room?

If so, you have your strategy.

~~~
alistproducer2
I just got it lol. I'm slow.

------
belvoran
I was working in an open space for a couple of years. The phones were ringing
happily, including the official corporate ones, which were standing on each
desk. People were talking all the time. Talking, walking, looking at my
screen, of course with lots of comments to my code. 70 people in the floor.

We had all the funny things for the group integration all the time. All the
things except for thinking.

Yes, I was sitting all the time with my headphones, shouting maximally to my
ears. Until one of those people making noise told me that it is not team
friendly to have so loud phones, as he hears the music, and cannot
concentrate.

Of course the management had their separate offices, with walls, and doors.
They didn't see any problem.

For the last 6 years I've been working remotely from home. Well, what a
change. In 4 hours I could do more than for a week in the open space.

~~~
icehawk219
Same story here. At my previous job when they rolled out the open office a
bunch of us complained and the boss explained how he'd be giving up his office
to work out on the floor with us. Not even joking, less than an hour after he
moved his stuff out he moved it back into his office saying "it's too
distracting, I can't get anything done out here".

Now working from home I make more progress per day then I did on a weekly
basis there.

~~~
Tenhundfeld
I agree with all of this. I worked in open offices and Agile "team rooms" for
many years, and I've been working from home for the last few. There's
definitely a huge increase in the amount of quality code I'm able to crank out
working from home.

However, I do think some intangibles are lost. They're hard, maybe impossible,
to quantify. Instead, I'll just link to a post from PG that's a transcription
of a speech by Richard Hamming.
[http://www.paulgraham.com/hamming.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/hamming.html)
And to save you a click, this is the paragraph that stuck with me:

"Another trait, it took me a while to notice. I noticed the following facts
about people who work with the door open or the door closed. I notice that if
you have the door to your office closed, you get more work done today and
tomorrow, and you are more productive than most. But 10 years later somehow
you don't know quite know what problems are worth working on; all the hard
work you do is sort of tangential in importance. He who works with the door
open gets all kinds of interruptions, but he also occasionally gets clues as
to what the world is and what might be important."

Obviously there are ways to mitigate that, e.g., involvement in the developer
community or establishing habits to replace "water cooler" chatter, but they
take deliberate effort.

------
bcheung
I'd say environmental factors such as being so freaking hot that you are
sweating or so freaking cold you have to bring in a heater to counteract the
AC are pretty distracting as well. And in terms of productivity, not having
enough ventilation so that the air builds up CO2 makes people really tired and
unproductive.

~~~
joesmo
Totally! I once quit a job because the average temperature in the office was
85F in winter (also really shitty spaghetti code)! Unfortunately, not before I
got incredibly sick. When I complained, they said they could do nothing about
it because other people were freezing. In the Bay Area, on the other hand, I
had a job in a similar place that was always freezing, even when it was warm
outside. That was actually not as bad, but still annoying to have to wear a
heavy winter coat indoors all the time.

The point is, big giant spaces / warehouses are not offices and using them as
such without proper comforts will make your employees hate you. If it's an
open office on top of that, they'll hate you twice as much because I've never
met a single person who prefers open offices for themselves.

~~~
theandrewbailey
Sometime at a previous job, the A/C failed in the server closet. Since the
rest of the office was so chilly, the door was propped open, and stayed that
way at least until I left. For the first time, the temperature was sometimes
bearable. I wonder if that episode killed some of those geriatric servers;
this was 2012 and there were several Pentium 3 Xeons running Win 2K Server in
there.

A while after that, building management sent around a survey. It included a
table that asked 'how is the temperature in...' and various parts of the
building. I put 'too cold' for everything. I bet everyone else did too,
because two weeks later, they installed a thermostat in the office, and things
were comfortable enough without a jacket.

------
ryandrake
Different strokes for different folks. I'm probably the only person on HN that
prefers open office workspaces. I currently have an office to myself and it's
so lonely and isolating. I think I'd go crazy working all day without human
interaction, so I hardly ever use it. And, no, chat isn't an adequate
substitute. I'll generally charge up my laptop and go out and work in a break
room or some other common area with actual human beings around--much better.
If it gets noisy and I want to block out distractions headphones work just
fine.

~~~
Swizec
Maybe you're an extrovert? Being around people gives you energy.

For us introverts it's the opposite. Being around people drains us of energy.
_Even if we enjoy their company and enjoy social interaction_. It's tiring.

There's probably no silver bullet for office design. People are different, as
you say.

~~~
ghurtado
I don't know why you got downvoted. I'm a software engineer and I identify
with every sentence in your comment. I suspect I'm far from the only one.

~~~
gerbilly
I'd go further and say that many introverts self select for jobs like
programmer, researcher etc that require deep sustained focus.

I would bet that introverts are _over represented_ in tech, but of course they
put us all in open office plans.

------
haddr
Couldn't agree more on the article. Recently they put next to us a group of
people who is 50% of their time on the phone. While some of them try to speak
low, other just yell. It is probably the most frustrating work setup I
experienced in my career. It is really distracting.

~~~
mgkimsal
i post the same comments every time this topic comes up, but it really bugs
me.

the same people making these layout/seating decisions do not subject
themselves to the same setup. have 2-3 sales guys on phone calls all day long
in a room with the CFO trying to get his work done - he'd go insane, or ...
have extremely low productivity. why do people think everyone else is
different from them?

------
post_break
Coworker who is extremely loud on the phone. I get 0 work done when she's on
the phone. She's so loud I can't hear people when I'm on the phone. We have an
"open door" policy at work so if I close my door to my own office it looks
weird. If I tell her she's being too loud I look like an asshole. We're moving
to a new building and I'm going to be on a different floor than her and I
can't wait. So many years of listening to half of a conversation is enough to
make you go insane.

~~~
Xcelerate
As a graduate student, I was lucky to have an advisor that let me work on
research from anywhere as long as I was getting stuff done. I tried to work in
the office a few times, and a couple loud people made it almost impossible for
me to accomplish anything. Coffee shops, despite the presence of ambient
conversations, were much more effective for me. I haven't quite figured out
the difference between coffee shop noise and office noise — I just know that I
can tune the former out, while the latter makes it difficult to concentrate.

~~~
Swizec
> I haven't quite figured out the difference between coffee shop noise and
> office noise — I just know that I can tune the former out, while the latter
> makes it difficult to concentrate.

Coffee shop noise is irrelevant, office noise _might_ be relevant. You
automatically pay attention even if you don't want to.

For me, noise cancelling headphones are a necessity. Impossible to get
anything done otherwise.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Exactly this.

What finally made me buy a good set of headphones for work was a cow-orker
that would regularly come to my office to talk to a colleague about some
project. Nothing to do with my work, but the words he used made me
involuntarily tune in to the conversation every 10 seconds, just because it
_sounded_ relevant.

------
jjp
For an summary of all the environmental/physiological factors that affect work
performance in the office take a look at Creating the Productive Workplace
[1]. Research material covered include affect of temperature (high/low and
variation), humidity, indoor air quality, ventilation and it's control,
lighting, crowding, daylight (too much/too little), artificial light (wrong
type) and noise.

One of the points that comes out quite strongly is that whilst each of the
environmental factors does adversely/positively impact your performance your
ability to control (or lack of control) can have a greater impact. For example
you will tolerate colder and warmer environments if you know that you can have
some influence on the temperature .

[1]
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279190533_Creating_...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279190533_Creating_the_Productive_Workplace)

------
davidtgoldblatt
An anecdote for those who hoped they'd find suggestions in the comments:

I ended up buying some over-the-head earmuff headphones aimed at construction
workers (I think with a 25dB noise reduction rating). I put in ear plugs, then
the headphones, and play some light music; even relatively loud and nearby
conversations drop away pretty quickly. (Ordinary "noise cancelling"
headphones aren't intended to block the sound of talking, and don't work as
well).

The only issue is comfort; the headphones fit quite tightly. I got used to it
after a few hours, and now don't mind it at all. My wife tried it, and
couldn't ever adjust.

~~~
ethanbond
At the risk of seeming spammy since I just replied to another person on here,
you should check out the Here One by Doppler Labs. I had the first version and
it's incredible – albeit mostly a novelty device. They're taking preorders for
the new one right now and it seems to no longer be a novelty device at all...

Also since you specifically mentioned comfort, these are just little wireless
earbuds that feel comfy enough that you forget you're wearing them, and then
you forget how loud the world is when you take them out.

[https://hereplus.me](https://hereplus.me)

My other comment for details:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12800201](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12800201)

~~~
ghaff
Looks interesting. I have the Bose QC-20s and they're great for traveling.
They're great on planes although, as others indicate, they're better at
background noise than voices. I held off on noise canceling headphones for
ages because I pack pretty light and refused to bring over-the-ear headphones
traveling--and then hesitated at the price.

But they were really worth it. I never realized before using them how much I
was cranking up the volume to compensate for the background noise even with
ear canal phones that isolated relatively well.

~~~
andrewaylett
I carry Etymotic earplugs with me at all times; they're cheap enough not to
worry too much about losing. I also recently got myself a pair of Plantronics
Backbeat Pro headphones -- they're great; pretty good at blocking background
noise turned off, really good with the noise cancelling on (even in the
office) and not nearly as expensive as the Bose headphones. And they sound
great both with a wire and on Bluetooth.

I should probably buy some Plantronics stock, shouldn't I? Just a happy
consumer :).

~~~
zimpenfish
I have a couple of pairs of ER20s and some ER20XS for commuting, gigs, noisy
places, etc. They do a good enough job that I can go to e.g. a Rammstein gig
and not suffer afterwards (tinnitus flareup, headache, etc.)

------
deathanatos
> _" In general, if it's coming from another person, it's much more disturbing
> than when it's coming from a machine," he says_

Huh. My most pet peeve in the open office floorplan was always the coworkers
whose phone — not on vibrate — would start ringing. They'd look at it, decide
not to answer it, _and proceed to just let it ring out loud until it hits
voicemail._ Just… _why?_ And attempts to educate the owner on how to silence a
ringer¹ just seem to go unheeded.

One commenter I read once noted the concept of "cell phone time out" — a
basket with a blanket for ringing phones with no owner to be found.

My current office boasted "great amounts of natural light"; I have exactly
zero paths to natural light from my desk. (The upshot of this is that we're in
a corner that largely isolates us from the noise.) While I lean towards cubes
(simply for the affordance of quiet and disease prevention), do they not mean
that people in them get absolutely no natural light? (Not that I am right now
myself, but it crosses my mind.)

We recently lost a manweek to a cold that just ran absolutely rampant through
the desks. Perhaps the sad thing is that I feel that was pretty good, and
could have been much worse. (Perhaps because I seem to have dodged it myself.)

Our new office came with less conference rooms and quiet areas. Less actual
useable space per person.

¹And just in case you're wondering: squeezing nearly any cell phone's
power/volume buttons will silence the ringer during an incoming call. It
doesn't cancel the call or voicemail it: the other end is still listening to a
ringtone. You can still pick up with call with the on-screen UI if you want.
(At least until it truly goes to voicemail, which happens after the normal
delay.) You can even do this with the phone in the pocket pretty easily, e.g.,
if it rings inconveniently during an important meeting.

~~~
keithpeter
_" One commenter I read once noted the concept of "cell phone time out" — a
basket with a blanket for ringing phones with no owner to be found."_

Microwave oven? (Faraday cage approach)

------
rdiddly
Active noise-cancelling headphones plus a white noise generator, is where it's
at.

These are the best headphones I've used:
[https://amzn.com/B00X9KV0HU](https://amzn.com/B00X9KV0HU) They come in Apple-
or Android-compatible versions.

They won't cancel everything. In general they're great with anything constant
(hums/motors/fans etc.) but the more impulsive (in the physics sense) a sound
wave is, the more of it seeps through. Human speech I find it damps it pretty
significantly but not all the way.

That's where white noise comes in. From that dampened state, a very quiet
level of white noise is enough to perceptually drown out any loudmouths who
have no concept of an "indoor voice." Use something like simplynoise.com or an
app. For Android I like Noise Machine -
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.synopsia.n...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.synopsia.noisemachine)
For iPhone I believe there's an app literally called White Noise.

Not affiliated with any of these people.

Don't use music... that's just as distracting as someone talking. YMMV

~~~
darkstar999
"Apple-compatible version" oh god this is really happening. What a regression!

------
wwggggoi
honestly, that's why I'm hardly ever in the office. there's someone there
who's noise profile is utterly unfilterable. they fiddle with things, drop
things, fidget, cough, snort phlegm up their nose, subvocalize, and generally
emit an air of restlessness. nice person though.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Has anyone ever told them that they're noisy? I suspect that I might be such a
person, and explicitly tell anyone to go ahead and let me know if I'm ever
annoying.

I think I'm approachable enough that they take the offer at face value, and
not as a passive-aggressive "don't you dare".

~~~
realeyes
This is a serious issue for me as well I've asked co workers I'm fairly close
with and they say they don't notice me etc. I can't tell if they're just
trying to be nice though, I think I'm a loud breather but I don't know how to
prove it.

------
buckbova
> Dooley says he found the carrot-munching funny.

If you have an open office, no eating at your desk period. Show some respect
for your co-workers.

I worked next to an apple eater some time ago, slurping and chomping on his
apple every day. Drove me insane. But every so often there was the bag of baby
carrots. Which although less disturbing lasted much longer.

Then there's the fish eaters and microwave popcorn eaters. Don't bring that
into the office. Keep it in the lunch room, eat outside or don't bring it in!

~~~
artificial
This is hilarious, I wholeheartedly agree. I cannot stand popcorn in the
office, especially since the microwave is a high wattage variant and nobody
watches the popcorn so it burns frequently (with the fire department making an
appearance recently)

------
pjlegato
Open office plans are a great example of cargo cult management, second only to
Agile.

Despite numerous well controlled studies debunking the myths that people are
somehow happier, more creative, or communicate better in open plans, we get:
"Company X was very successful, and they had an open office plan; therefore,
the open office plan _made_ them successful and we should have one, too."
Company X was successful _despite_ the open plan, not because of it.

------
space99
This thread is brought to you by Bose quiet comfort headphones. They are
amazing!

~~~
silveira
Bose QC15 here. It makes miracles in noise workplaces, it works better with
pitch voices (usually man's voice).

It also upgrades the quality of any flight.

------
allsystemsgo
As someone with ADD, are work places required to accommodate for my learning
disability and allow me to WFH or work in a quiet place? I'm in the US.

------
ThePhysicist
The company I'm currently working at bought everyone some top-of-the-line Bose
noise-canceling headphones for the same reason, as we have an open plan office
and coworkers can be chatty sometimes. And while the noise canceling is far
from being perfect, it really makes it much easier to stay focused when
working. I even wear them on my commute now as they are very good at filtering
out constant amplitude white noise (such as engine hums), which helps me to
focus on my reading. Unfortunately I sometimes miss my stops now :D

~~~
mmanfrin
I bought some QC25s when I moved to a big open office. For me, they don't help
-- what they do is they kill all the background noise, but then the individual
voices still come through and they come through as _the only thing I hear_.

I could play music, but sometimes I like the roar of silence.

~~~
gvurrdon
I'd like to buy a nice pair of headphones but that's the thing that worries
me. I'm not at all bothered by the background noise (e.g. aircraft engines)
but human-made noises are very distracting. There seems to be nothing that can
filter them out; my current passive headphones will muffle conversation a bit
when I've got white noise playing through them but throat-clearing cuts right
through.

------
gvurrdon
Office noise has become a bit of an issue for me recently, this being the
reason:

[http://www.tinnitus.org.uk/hyperacusis](http://www.tinnitus.org.uk/hyperacusis)

Although the amount of talking in the office is low and not very disturbing,
and there's certainly nothing like the horror of Spotify which one commenter
here mentioned, there are people at work who make noise which sounds
particularly intrusive and distracting to me (e.g. sniffing, throat clearing
and similar). Of course, to many others these would not seem to be much of a
problem, being more like background noise, and so most don't fully appreciate
how much of a nuisance it can be.

A lot of it can be covered up with earphones playing white noise, nature
sounds, or similar, but too much of that during the day does seem to have a
deleterious effect on hearing, such as by making tinnitus louder. Wearing them
also interferes with those occasions where it is useful to talk to colleagues.

------
sampsonetics
Let's be careful with the phrase "open office plan". Many articles lump
cubicle farms together with partition-free spaces in the same category, but
whenever they're treated as separate choices the research tends to show
cubicle farms being worse than partition-free spaces on most dimensions,
including noise distraction -- i.e. private offices > partition-free spaces >
cubicle farms. Interestingly, this particular article mostly avoids this
distinction but does address it in the final paragraph:

"There are solutions, says Cornell's Hedge. The trend toward open offices and
hard office furniture makes noise distraction worse, so adding carpet, drapes
and upholstery can help. He recommends, perhaps counterintuitively, getting
rid of cubicle walls, which provide the illusion of sound privacy, but
actually make people less aware of the noises they create."

------
thefastlane
i've noticed that if coworkers tend exhibit a high level of emotion in their
voices during their conversations, that's very distracting -- e.g., some
people seem to just have a pattern of vocalizing stress or confusion in their
tone of speech, either to each other, or on the phone etc.

it took me a long time to identify exactly what was bugging me (besides it
obviously being noisy), but then it dawned on me, and now i pay close
attention to it -- being able to cateogrize it, and then compartmentalize it
away, helps a lot i think.

moving to an off-site coffee shop on occasion has made all the difference,
despite being an equal or greater amount of noise.

still would prefer an office, obviously.

------
broahmed
My solution is over the ear head phones + nature sounds. I personally like:
[http://texashighdef.net/](http://texashighdef.net/)
[http://whitenoisemp3s.com/](http://whitenoisemp3s.com/) (these are for
purchase, but I've found them to be of very high quality and return to them
repeatedly).

Your mileage may vary; some people find this stuff puts them to sleep.

------
skc
It's very strange that HN seems to sway so heavily against open offices.

I genuinely think the reality is that opinions are split squarely down the
middle, otherwise hacking/working in coffee shops wouldn't be a thing for
example (people seek out that specific experience)

It also implies that the likes of Google/Facebook aren't being as productive
as they can be, which is hogwash in my opinion.

~~~
knorker
If you've ever been to a Google/facebook office you'll know that it's mostly
deserted. It works to some extent mostly because people aren't actually at
their desks.

------
bigger_cheese
I work in an open office and honestly it doesn't bother me. When I'm working
on a problem intently I tend to get into a headspace where I don't notice the
distractions around me.

Sometimes if I'm deeply engrossed in a problem a coworker will have to repeat
my name several times before I realize they are trying to get my attention.

Other people in my team complain about the environment a lot. The ones that do
tend to listen to music on headphones to tune out.

I think a lot of it depends on your upbringing. I grew up as the oldest child
in a house full of younger siblings my home environment was always very noisy
so I suspect I have a higher tolerance for working/studying etc in a
distraction rich environment.

The benefit I see to an open office is being able to contribute to colleagues
discussions several times a week I'll overhear a conversation or a colleague
will be listening to mine and be able to interject.

Several valuable conversations have started based around "I overheard you were
working on... I had a similar problem I solved by doing... Then often a third
colleague will jump in etc. If we were each in private offices this wouldn't
have occurred.

Edit: Related anecdote when I was at University I spent some time working as
an apprentice the company wasn't expecting me to show up or there was some
communication issue etc didn't have a proper desk for me when I arrived so for
several weeks they shoved me into the room with all the photocopiers and this
huge B0 drafting printer the Mechanical Engineers used to print technical
drawings. This thing was based on old dot matrix technology used to make a
hell of a lot of noise when it fired up it would scare the crap out of me
every time. That obviously was distracting...

------
0x54MUR41
Cal Newport recently is discussing about the open office. I am sure it is
related to his new book, Deep Work. These following posts are explained it:

\- Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers? [1]

\- The Opposite of the Open Office [2]

The previous discussion of one of that post also appears on HN. You may check
it out here
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12677866](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12677866).

[1]: [http://calnewport.com/blog/2016/10/09/is-facebooks-
massive-o...](http://calnewport.com/blog/2016/10/09/is-facebooks-massive-open-
office-scaring-away-developers/)

[2]: [http://calnewport.com/blog/2016/10/19/the-opposite-of-the-
op...](http://calnewport.com/blog/2016/10/19/the-opposite-of-the-open-office/)

------
sien
Has anyone ever worked in an open plan office space with high, transparent
partitions like these:

[https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Fireproofing-
transpar...](https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Fireproofing-transparent-
office-partition-office-low_1938784208.html)

[http://stab-group.com/en/products/of%D1%96sn%D1%96-peregorod...](http://stab-
group.com/en/products/of%D1%96sn%D1%96-peregorodki/)

It seems like you could have, say, 1.5m of solid partition and then higher
transparent partitions and a few lightweight doors and sort of have a cube
farm that allowed in light but blocked noise.

------
reality_czech
In related news, water is wet.

Unstructured space is terrible for working and terrible for collaboration.

------
sauronlord
I just quit my software development Job at 120k /year (Waterloo)

I couldn't fucking stand the noise and distractions.

Now I work remote, at home, on my own gigs. Never work in an "open office
again"

------
joshstrange
I'm a little late to this discussion but I wear headphones/earbuds the entire
time I'm in my office and if people are being loud I just turn up my music. I
am no fan of open floor plans but at the same time they don't bother me as
long as I can wear my headphones and people aren't constantly trying to get my
attention vis non-chat methods (chat me and say you need to talk, saying my
name or waving at me it not going to grab my attention).

------
douche
When it gets real bad, sometimes I put in my handy old industrial orange foam
ear-plugs[1]. What's good for bringing the scream of a chainsaw down to a dull
wail will just about block out all but the loudest conference calls
completely. Although I suppose it might be a tad ruder than headphones...

[1]
[http://www.howardleight.com/earplugs/max](http://www.howardleight.com/earplugs/max)

~~~
zimpenfish
I use [http://www.howardleight.com/earplugs/laser-
lite](http://www.howardleight.com/earplugs/laser-lite) for sleeping and
occasionally when walking through London. Good value in bulk from Amazon.

------
neves
One of the greatest inventions of the humanity:
[https://www.google.com.br/search?q=noise+reduction+ear+plugs...](https://www.google.com.br/search?q=noise+reduction+ear+plugs&safe=active&biw=1087&bih=753&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjj57_EmfnPAhUBciYKHcR2CrkQ_AUIBigB)

With them, you can easily turn off or on ambient noise.

~~~
mmanfrin
But not distinct voices.

------
alexellisuk
I can relate to a lot in the article having worked in open plan for 10 years.
I always get a lot more done working from home - ambient distraction level is
really low. The worst thing is sick people contaminating and rowdy loud people
especially when we are expected to take regular video conferences at our
desks.

It would be interesting given a poll who would opt for:

\- open plan, no separators

\- hot-desking

\- individual offices

\- individual offices + open areas

------
rdlecler1
For those who might be distracted by music, I bring earplugs to work. That you
also have to take them out to talk means that you're also distracting less
people. They should be giving them away at the front desk. Bright orange so
people know not to disturb you unless necessary.

------
m3kw9
I find if there is a big contrast in noises, say if the office is usually
quiet and a coworker starts making noises, they are more distractive than if
in a constantly noisy environment and a loud coworker makes noise. I would say
the contrast is a huge factor as the article seem to suggest

------
pimeys
Bought a pair of good closed back headphones after using semi-open headphones
for ages. Lots of money you can pour into these, but can't complain having
great sound and not able to hear the noise of my colleagues.

~~~
xenihn
Which pair?

~~~
pimeys
Beyerdynamic DT-1770. But I had a good DAC and my old head amp already, so it
was an obvious choice. If you're missing these, I'd go with Shure SRH-1540 for
lower impedance.

------
baconforce
Caves and Commons. Have an area where people can go to work without
interruption, and have a common area where people can work in an open space
and collaborate. Don't anchor an individual to either space.

------
ofcapl_
How many people in one room makes open space? I work with 8-10 people in one
room and found a moderate distraction till I've turn my desk to the wall and I
have everyone behind me.

------
aries1980
What about the distractions in peripheral vision? It is easier to suppress
sound than moving people and hailing or “shaking” wooden floor.

------
rhizome
It's funny how in the past 20 years the VC funding rounds have gotten much
larger while the work environments have gotten much worse.

------
shmerl
This isn't news. That's why open offices are often so annoying. Good
circumaural headphones are indispensable there.

------
agounaris
But why? Its so much fun to place 10 sales people in an open space office and
watch it burn!!

------
b2600
I understand people can be and are distractions but from my background I
believe you should be able to perform your tasks regardless. While a
legitimate issue, this sounds like searching for excuses. You perform in the
environment you are in. Everyone else is suffering the same distractions.

------
necessity
For sure. But then again I just got a headphone.

------
cafard
NPR is a distraction in the house....

------
jmcdiesel
Or we can adapt to the real world where people around us necessarily have an
effect on us - and learn to live in that world?

We don't need to work in libraries, we need to just adapt.

~~~
CaptSpify
Just like we need to adapt to poor eyesight instead of relying on these
"glasses" everyone keeps raving about. /s

I find it hard to take your statement seriously

~~~
jmcdiesel
Those two things are completely non relatable.

If your eyesight is bad, there are things YOU can do for YOURSELF to fix that
problem, without asking anyone to change what THEY are doing.

The "quiet office" is something that only some people prefer. Many of us (I'm
one of them) prefer noise - music playing, background noise, etc ... I find it
hard to concentrate in silence, and I know more people like me.

To ask others to be silent to ask them to change how they comfortably work to
suit you. Let everyone work how they work best.

~~~
chris_7
> I find it hard to concentrate in silence

Great! Put on some headphones, then?

~~~
jmcdiesel
You can! They have great noise canceling headphones these days, so go ahead
and put those on and let everyone else do their thing?

~~~
chris_7
I don't understand how that will create silence, not just "different noise".

~~~
jmcdiesel
Ear plugs then? (Bose noise reducing headphones actually do a good job at
drowning out office noise, even with no other audio playing)

The point is - its just as easy to block noise, so take the responsibility on
your side rather than asking others to change for you.

------
omgherpyderp
I'm not really sure where the issue is?

I work in a noisy office. The only reason why my productivity goes down is
because I'm nosy as shit and have all these opinions I want to share.

~~~
dasmoth
It's hard not to be "nosy as shit" when the conversation a couple of desks
over contains just enough high-relevance keywords that your subconscious keeps
pinging you to say this _might_ be important.

------
ar15saveslives
It's better to work in somewhat noisy environment, where everybody can stare
at your monitor, than commit suicide after two years of sitting in dark gloomy
gray-walled cubicle without any natural light.

I honestly can't understand people that can work in those depressing
conditions.

~~~
mwfunk
Different people are different. Crazy huh?

~~~
ar15saveslives
People, who can choose where to sit, never pick a cubicle.

~~~
jpindar
I would take a pay cut to be allowed to work in a cubicle. (Especially if
other people would cut back on the chatter a bit, as typically happens in cube
farms as opposed to open offices.)

