
My dog was killed on a walk with a walker ordered through Wag - griffinmb
https://www.facebook.com/nick.moore.7140/posts/3600186133211
======
james_s_tayler
This is mildly fascinating. Though not entirely unexpected.

A quick Google for "pet sitting dog died" turns up a number of these stories.
It seems a number of them are through these dog sitting services like Wag or
Rover.

Here's an interesting one I found not through a dog sitting service but just a
roommate that had been asked to sit the dog while the owner was away.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/t7kv7/currently_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/t7kv7/currently_dog_sitting_for_roommatedog_was_just/)

It must be awful for everyone involved. I suspect it's nothing unique to dog
sitting services but that it occurs with a certain (albeit low) frequency as a
phenomenon but that it's showing up through dog sitting services because there
is a (1) a paper trail of the transaction and (2) a stable, visible entity on
which to lay the blame.

In the pre-sharing economy days this still happened. Only you vetted the
sitter first and so you feel less justified blaming them because on some level
you know you signed off on them. You also couldn't really go public and say
"14 year old Jenny from Ashmore killed my dog" because you can't make a common
enemy out of her and while people will feel for both of you, it's not
actionable information for anyone.

It's fascinating what phenomenon our society is making visible through new
structures made possible by technology.

It's awful for all involved to have this happen.

~~~
toomuchtodo
I have to say that the problem is accountability. With this Wag incident, it
appears the person selected through the platform was not the person who was
caring for the pet. When I select someone to care for my pet, I know who they
are, and can use my own signals to determine if they’re trustworthy and
responsible. Wag doesn’t care, they’re just out to “crush it” (cost of
business), and the contractor doesn’t care because it’s just another crap
minimum wage job.

Stop trusting platforms and acting shocked when the trust model breaks down.
They are not designed for safety or trust, but to skim as much volume as
possible from transaction flow.

~~~
james_s_tayler
It definitely seems they could and need to do more to tighten up the
accountability on the platform. No doubt about that.

I don't know that it's accurate to say the contractor doesn't care. If they
were a psychopath I could agree with that, but most people have had the
experience of having either a pet, friend or relative die and know how deeply
it affects people emotionally and to know you were responsible for that would
likely generate a strong, negative visceral reaction.

Edit: Platforms don't kill dogs; people do. Stop trusting people.

Actually this is the part that fascinates me. On some level people expect
things to never go wrong. Yet things going "wrong" is kind of the default.
It's extremely hard to engineer a situation in which no one ever experiences a
negative outcome. To the extent that you can attribute a cause to an outcome,
you do.

Infact, it's not at all clear whether the frequency of dogs dying while being
sat by pet sitters is higher on platforms or higher when not through
platforms. You'd actually have to do quite a lengthy, expensive analysis to
compute the truth value of that.

What can likely agree on is that we want the most safe and convenient system.
I'm fascinated by thinking about the various trade-offs made when organizing a
system one way vs. another. Are we trading more convenience for less safety?
Or are we actually getting both more convenience AND more safety, but also
increased observability is skewing our perception of the risk such that we
think we have got a less safe system when in fact the opposite might be true?

I don't have the answers. But damnit it's important to attempt to look at
things the right way in an attempt to compute that actual reality.

~~~
thisisit
> Edit: Platforms don't kill dogs; people do. Stop trusting people.

I disagree with that notion. Trust has always been a big problem. But when a
two way market is built on a platform you trust the platform to carry out it's
due diligence on your behalf. Situations like:

 _The walker that was with Winnie when she was killed had a different name in
her bio paragraph than was shown on her profile—which makes me wonder if Wag
is monitoring whether or not the people walking your dog are who they say they
are. Sara asked the walker what her name was, but the walker did not provide
an answer._

shouldn't happen at all.

But it's seems that most of the time platforms forgo the need for verification
and think trust should solve itself because "people". It takes a harassment
case (in case of Uber) etc for companies to open their eyes and realize
"people" are not so simple. It takes a good and concentrated effort to run a
clean platform.

~~~
logifail
>> you trust the platform to carry out it's due diligence on your behalf

Isn't one of the central points of gig economy service provision that services
are cheaper since the "red tape"/regulations aspect gets significantly less
focus than before?

If I wanted to drive a taxi in London, UK, there are some fairly onerous
requirements[0], which come with a cost.

So why did Uber and friends decide _not_ to use the same list of requirements?

Isn't it about saving money (and time) so you can keep prices low and margins
high?

[0] [https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-
hire/licensing...](https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-
hire/licensing/apply-for-a-taxi-driver-licence)

~~~
magduf
Those onerous requirements were actually pretty ridiculous, and included
having to basically memorize an entire street map of the city. That may have
made some sense 40 years ago, but today we have GPS navigation, so we don't
need cabbies to know how to get to any address off the top of their head.
Uber/Lyft work well because instead of having your cabbie take you on some
overly-long route just to jack up your fare, they have to follow the route
prescribed by Lyft/Uber's GPS app, which takes the most optimal route.

------
thomasec
We had a similar (but thankfully, less serious) thing happen with Rover. We
booked a dog sitter for 4 days with a woman named "Leslie". When we showed up
to "Leslie's" place, the lady who we met did not match the person in the
photo, and barely spoke any english. We were on our way to the airport, so I
really didn't have a choice at that point but to leave our dog (I realize now
I should have done more vetting, or met this individual in-person ahead of
time, but the person I booked - Leslie - had dozens of positive reviews).
After dropping off our dog, we received extremely vague updates/text messages
over the next few days, and no photos. Things like - "Your dog is doing
great", "he is behaving so well", etc... Whenever I asked for a photo, they
would say they'd send one the next day.

Needless to say, it became obvious that whoever was watching our dog was not
the person we were communicating with. Thankfully, our dog doesn't have
special medication, or a specific diet that we needed to monitor. Who knows
what would have happened if there was an emergency, and we needed to get in
touch with one another.

These services like Wag and Rover have literally one job, and that is to make
sure you trust the individuals watching your pet. The response from Rover was
completely thoughtless, and it was clear they were going to do nothing to
investigate the situation. The fact that they don't care that people like this
woman who clearly has some sort of questionable scheme going on just shows how
little they care about protecting their customer's pets.

~~~
sizzle
Why not put an IP camera on your pooch and front yard for the peace of mind
and to verify they are actually doing their job?

~~~
magduf
As another poster said, this wasn't house-sitting, this was basically
boarding. This is the problem with dogs as pets: you absolutely have to board
them when you go away, or else you have to pay someone to come to your place
_several times a day_ to walk them and clean up after them. That's not cheap,
and is why boarding exists (the boarding person/company can have a bunch of
peoples' dogs all in one place and take care of them all at the same time).

Why anyone wants a pet that costs so much and can't be left alone for a couple
of days, and on top of that needs regular bathing and grooming so they don't
stink up your home, I have no idea. These animals made a lot of sense for
working on farms and living mostly outside (and still do for people who still
live that way in rural areas), but for urban environments they really don't.

~~~
astura
The pet sitting situation isn't bad at all if you have a strong family or
friend network and live near each other and all like dogs. People just
casually bring their dogs over to each others house when they won't be home.
When I was a teen when my aunts and uncles with pets go on vacation I'd spend
the week at their house taking care of their pets.

Without that sort of network, yeah, I don't understand owning a dog either.

------
yegle
This happened recently:

Wag! dog walker charged with animal cruelty; customers concerned about
industry background checks

[http://www.ktvu.com/news/wag-dog-walker-charged-with-
animal-...](http://www.ktvu.com/news/wag-dog-walker-charged-with-animal-
cruelty-customers-concerned-about-industry-background-checks)

EDIT: and the settlement letter sent from Wag:
[https://www.scribd.com/document/397139013/SNews-
Copie1901081...](https://www.scribd.com/document/397139013/SNews-
Copie19010815010)

~~~
defap
Wow. The walker kicks and whips the dog until it vomits blood and Wag offers a
refund and a $100 credit as settlement.

Who in the world wants Wag credits after an experience like that. If Wag wants
to buy these folks’ silence, shouldn’t they at least make a non-insulting
offer?

~~~
warent
This is terrifying behavior both on part of the walker and Wag. I don't blame
Wag for having occasionally sketchy immoral actors that don't care about
animals--that's essentially impossible to entirely prevent, especially as they
continue scaling. However, their responses to these issues are extremely
concerning and do not indicate a company that's managed well.

------
fanzhang
The Streisand effect strikes again. This is what happens when the legal
department has no customer empathy, and to these lawyers, everything is a nail
to their hammer of a contract.

Some people mentioned that Wag should have offered more and demanded less --
absolutely!

But think about if Wag even said "sorry this happened, that's all we can say
for your terrible loss" even _without_ a compensation offer and _without_ an
insulting NDA. It probably wouldn't have pushed the owner to post this and for
it to end up on HN -- and now the world knows.

I honestly believe Wag and Rover and other large companies that offer pet
walking services should put up a very high liability bond for pet injury -- on
the order of $10K or more. That way they have skin in the game to vet their
walkers better. Most owners value their dogs above that, and that incentive is
the only way to get these corporations to listen.

~~~
crowbahr
Perhaps have the walkers be bonded as well?

Even if it's 1k that's a pretty serious amount of money to lose, but low
enough a barrier of entry that you still have people making a go at it.

Obviously it gets returned to you when you close your Wag Walker account.

~~~
thatoneuser
I don't think you understand how little these gig apps pay. 1k deposit would
exclude a very large percentage of the workers. And frankly - who in the hell
in their right mind would PAY a company a grand so start working for them?
That's sketchy af.

~~~
Dylan16807
> who in the hell in their right mind would PAY a company a grand so start
> working for them?

In order: A bond isn't paying them. It would ideally go to a reputable third
party. Anyone that works for uber paid a whole lot more for that car,
sometimes specifically for the job.

Edit: Would the downvoter care to explain? I'm not even saying it's definitely
a good idea, I'm just disagreeing with the particular arguments given.

~~~
pure-awesome
Not the downvoter, but my thoughts are:

It doesn't really matter whether the bond is going to the company or a third
party. The point is you're out of pocket for a large amount of money before
starting to work, ostensibly to earn money.

Most people simply aren't in a position to put down that kind of deposit in
order to start earning, especially not for a low-paying contract-based "gig"
job like this kind of pet-walking.

------
hessproject
I stopped using Wag due to their terrible customer service. I had an incident
where a walker, despite explicit instructions, did not put my young puppy (~6
months) back in her crate and left her free in the apartment unsupervised. The
walker report card said "I saw you said to crate her but she looked thirsty so
I left her out!".

I called several times where they said "we tried to contact the walker but
couldn't so we can't help you". So I had to leave work early and still came
home to a torn up couch and plenty of chewed up plastic that had to be
surgically removed by a vet. Wag compensated for this by trying to offer me a
"5 dollar credit for your next walk!"

------
idontpost
Incredibly stupid decision to respond this way by Wag.

How bad to you have to be at PR to screw this up? It's not hard. Liability in
the case of harmed pets is extremely limited, so you just pay it all and
apologize profusely. There's no way the bad press will be worth saving a
couple thousand maximum.

Absolute idiots.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Absolute idiots_

Agreed. You do three things in a crisis:

1) Acknowledge the problem.

You killed someone's dog. This hits like losing family. "We're opening an
investigation" is a chickenshit message.

2) CEO needs to speak.

Personal call from the top. If a dog is seriously injured or killed while on
your watch, the CEO must make the call. This shows seriousness to the
customer. It also ensures top brass feels the pain. That pain prevents future
mistakes and is a real emotional tool for correcting cultures.

3) Over-correct.

You'll pay for cremation. You'll pay for counseling. You'll refund every Wag
bill they ever incurred. If the family decides to get another dog, you'll
offer to pay for their shots and food for a year and pet insurance for life.

The message must be we are sorry, this is unacceptable, and we intend on
making this about as difficult for us as it is for you.

(Checklist from a video (with unfortunately and unrelated political content)
by Scott Gallaway [1].)

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB-
AyvgE8Ns](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB-AyvgE8Ns)

~~~
throwaway713
There was a comment that is now removed that said:

> Spoken like someone who's never lost family.

in reply to the parent's comment that said:

> You killed someone's dog. This hits like losing family."

My comment will probably be flagged as well, but fine, I'll sacrifice some
karma to show my support. I lost my mother due to cancer when I was eleven and
I personally find it _offensive_ when someone tells me they know "what it is
like" because they lost a pet.

Sure, there are people who have horrible family members that mistreated or
abused them, so the loss of a dog means more than the loss of that relative,
but if you're going to claim that it is comparable to lose a _human being_
that meant everything to you because an animal died, then we just have a
totally different set of moral axioms and are fundamentally incapable of
seeing the world in the same way.

~~~
Sholmesy
As someone who has lost friends and family members, as well as pets, it feels
the same.

I see this dichotomy quite a bit in the public discourse, regarding dogs
especially, where 1/2 the world treats dogs as family and the other half
thinks they are some play toy/object.

We have been living with wolves/dogs for a long time now, we're responsible
for how they have evolved, and part of that is how they have evolved to bond
with humans. It's not surprising to me that losing a dog feels like losing a
child for some people.

~~~
throwaway713
I appreciate you responding and explaining your perspective, even though we
may disagree on the issue.

> 1/2 the world treats dogs as family

Do you think that half the world, if given the choice between saving _either_
their dog or a stranger's child in a disaster situation (e.g. a house fire),
would choose their dog?

~~~
glangdale
I'm going to say after reading some of the other responses that there's
something seriously fucked up about the idea that you would save your dog. If
you even, for a minute, thought that saving a dog with a life expectancy of
10-20 years tops living as a pet for someone's indulgence is remotely
comparable to saving a child - who might live to 80 as an independent being -
give yourself an uppercut. I'm a dog lover and love my dog, but I would
sacrifice her in a heartbeat for a child - any child, regardless of whose it
is.

~~~
SCHiM
This is exactly it!

Why don't people feel that they should sacrifice themselves and carry their
grief and their emotional loss, and save the child?

I agree with some others in this thread, those that would save their pet are
selfish beyond my wildest imagination. To save themselves the grief of losing
a subjective family member they sacrifice human life for what is to outside
observers just an animal.

Be as you want to be, but in this I feel justified in judging those people
most harshly indeed.

------
ravenstine
I was going to reply with a reply about this being "statistically bound to
happen", until I read this:

> If we wanted to be compensated we had to agree not to tell anyone what
> happened, we could not leave any negative reviews, we could not make posts
> on social media, we could not hold Wag or the walker responsible, and only
> then would Wag reimburse us for Winnie’s cremation. When we responded that
> we would not sign the agreement, we were told that the agreement would
> remain available in case we changed our minds. The next day, we received an
> email stating that the agreement was now “null and void.”

What assholes. (Wag) All these gig economy apps are super shady.

~~~
baseballMan
I feel like part of why they're shady is because some of the people that
partake in them are shady. It's relatively easy to get accepted to them
(especially services like this).

~~~
nanoseltzer
From my experience, people signing up for these type of work range from
generally ok (most Uber drivers) to absolutely desperate for money (living out
of car, signs up for petsitting while owner is vacay).

It seems the lower the bar of entry in terms of capital, the shadier it is. Ie
Uber at least requires you to have a car, which involves some kind of credit
check which is embodied in the car procurement before it even hit Uber. Dog
walking? Not so much.

~~~
will_brown
>From my experience, people signing up for these type of work range from
generally ok (most Uber drivers) to absolutely desperate for money

Come on down to Miami, where it’s not unusual for the actual uber driver to be
different than uber drivers profile.

You can’t really get more shady than exploiting undocumented immigrants who
can’t get a DL, and having them illegally without a DL by driving under
someone else’s uber account for a fraction.

~~~
mpeg
That's no different than traditional taxi services. Getting a taxi license is
time-consuming and expensive in most places (as sometimes you have to buy from
an existing license-holder)

Taxi drivers will therefore try to maximise their investment, so they have
people driving their car 24/7, on shifts.

~~~
will_brown
That is significantly different than having People without drivers licenses
driving (a criminal offense in most jurisdictions) the taxis and fraudulently
misreprenting the drivers to the public (again typically a criminal offense).

There would be nothing wrong with having two uber drivers with two legitimate
uber accounts splitting the car...not allowing an unlicensed person driver for
uber under someone else’s account.

------
Judgmentality
I admittedly wasn't a huge fan of Wag ever because it always seemed like
taking the lowest available bidder to walk your dog (instead of someone who
truly loves dogs and has years of experience training them), but I'm curious
how much of an influence Softbank has been since their investment.

Everybody talks about how Softbank is the smartest money in Silicon Valley.
Obviously time will tell, but I feel like Softbank is actually the dumbest
money and just has more cash to throw around than anyone else.

That said, this is really an unnecessary tangent to what is truly a horrible
incident and I grieve for the dog owners.

~~~
gnulinux
Haha a little off topic but I'm curious. I work in a Softbank invested startup
(not Wag). Could you elaborate about Softbank being the most silly part? Is it
silly in this case, or in general about companies Softbank invests in?

~~~
Judgmentality
I'm just unimpressed by their investments, and their ridiculously large sums
of money thrown into companies which may not need it. I worked at a Softbank
company before, and while the fundraise was heralded as a brilliant move at
the time the few in the know realize that the company likely would have shut
down had Softbank not put up their ridiculously large sum of money (the public
and media still love this company and knows nothing of this).

Obviously this is just my opinion on their investment strategy and time will
tell - they make money or they don't. But I have insider information that at
least one of their bigger deals is definitely going to fail.

------
dbg31415
I went on a few dates with a girl who was a walker for Wag. She had just moved
to the town I'm from, and she was between jobs. She had a background as
veterinary assistant, was great with my dogs, and seemed over qualified for
the work.

One day she was upset and I asked her why. She said it was because Wag had
terminated her employment and deleted her profile, with over 100 high reviews.
(She had been very proud of the number of perfect reviews she had gotten.) She
said it was because she called animal control on one of the clients.

At first, I was like, "Holy hell, don't narc on your customers... no wonder
they banned you... anyone who pays for a dog walker would surely be a good dog
owner..." But then she showed me the pictures of what was clearly an puppy
mill. My friend was only there to walk one or two of the dogs, the dogs that
were used for photos, and there were 20+ other dogs locked in cages.

She did the humane thing, documented the issues, reported it to Wag... Wag did
nothing, didn't even bother to move her to a different client, or block her
from being sent back to that client. So on like the third visit, she escalated
it to animal control. Naturally the client got mad and complained to Wag, and
that's when Wag fired my friend. But... seems like the right thing to do in
that situation.

I saw these pictures on her phone, dogs that looked so sad. Penned up in cages
where they could barely turn around, and all very pregnant. Anyone with a
heart would have done what my friend did. And anyone working as a dog walker
should have a heart. Wag is a business, they only care about the bottom line.
It's not a service I would ever use for my own dogs.

Edit: Went from +7 to -2 pretty quick. Hmm, maybe Wag PR is listening in?

~~~
matte_black
HN has been getting a lot of coordinated down votes lately.

~~~
gaius
You will notice it always coincides with when the techbros on the West Coast
wake up.

~~~
matte_black
I feel like people don’t just downvote you once and move on, I feel that they
go into your whole history and just downvote you as much as they can to wound
your reputation, then they tell their friends. Sickening.

------
sammycdubs
This is a fantastic way to completely destroy your business. What a naive way
to try and cover for a lack of investment in safety.

My heart breaks for that dog and her family. Absolutely unbelievable.

------
Johnny555
I've never heard of Wag, but my wife signed up to be a pet sitter for a
competing site Rover and they never did any evaluation or background check.

She signed up for an account, uploaded a photo of herself and our dog, and
within a few days, she started getting petsitting requests.

------
ajmurmann
The most outrageous part to be always are the NDAs attached to settlements.
Those should be illegal. It should not be for the two parties to decide to
withhold information from the public. Usually it's the public who has an
interest in this information becoming widely available and not the person
agreeing to the NDA.

~~~
busterarm
If it weren't for NDAs, most settlements would never happen. Lawyers and court
fees are a bargain compared to extremely bad press.

------
issa
I realize this wasn't the point of the story, and I'm so sorry this happened
to anyone's dog. But please do not buy dogs from breeders when there are
plenty of amazing dogs waiting to be rescued at shelters.

~~~
crowbahr
While you're correct do note that not everyone can handle or wants to go
through the pain of training a shelter dog.

A dog you've raised from 8 weeks old is very different than a dog someone else
has already abused and abandoned. Even if they're only 6 months old the habits
have been learned and they're hard to break.

Young puppies go instantly from shelters for that reason, and few people want
to adopt a pit bull with behavior problems.

~~~
eropple
Yup. Both our dogs are shelter dogs and we love 'em, but in the newest dog's
case--he's probably around three, we've had him for about six months--there
are enough issues that a lot of people wouldn't want to deal with some people
just couldn't, while still being very good caretakers of better-adjusted dogs.

In ours's case: he's not a barker and he's incredibly gentle, but he's both
dumb as a post (not the shelter-dog problem, and also usually just hilarious)
and _extremely_ timid (that one is) to the point of frustration. Speak
excitedly? He'll slowly sink to the floor and look worried. Tape a cable to
the floor with gaff tape? He won't go over it[0]--probably because he'd
experienced an invisible fence, we think. Move a chair to the other side of
the living room? He sits in the corner and quietly freaks out for two hours.
Leave after such a traumatic furniture adjustment? You might come home and
he's nervous-chewed something. (Like, to this point, five pairs of my shoes. I
am literally bankrolling Nike by my re-purchases of Air Force 1's. It doesn't
help that now he's figured out how to open the doors that don't latch in our
house--we're doomed, I tell you. Doomed.)

He's a great dog. But we knew going into it that dealing with his issues would
take some effort, and there definitely are people who could be enriched by
having a dog (they're great!) but don't have the capacity to deal with even a
relatively minor case like ours.

The downside to this sort of generosity of the benefit of the doubt, of
course, is that then there are people who can't hack it and who _create_ more
shelter dogs. I don't have a good solution for that, of course. But my
intuition is more good is created than bad.

[0] - His pathfinding is just not good. He'll go the entire way around the
house to avoid walking over a scary black tape line. He'll also squeeze under
tables, chairs, benches, etc. to avoid innocuous spaces or hop over the couch
to avoid going around it. And this dog is a mess of Labrador, Staffordshire,
and German Shepherd, with legs like a greyhound--watching him accordion on
down to squeeze under a foot-high bench is _hilarious_.

~~~
X6S1x6Okd1st
One of our dogs is a shelter dog and the other was given up on by it's
original owner, but never made it to the shelter.

Both of them required training and care beyond what most people are prepared
to give.

I love my dogs, but if I could have avoided the training to get them to where
they are now I would have.

Yet if we adopt another dog it'll likely be from a shelter or rescue.

~~~
drewmol
IME having other, well trained dogs around as part of your pack helps immensly
when training a new addition so hopfully this gets easier with the next. Note
this can work against you as well... I still remember the look of "oh shit, we
can do that?" on (new rescue) Halo's face when Layla eagerly leaped the 5 foot
fence twice in order to retreive a frisbee that had landed in the neighbors
yard!

------
Fins
Seems to be something that, sadly, is to be expected from this generation of
SV and SV-like companies that believe than any problem (usually a very First-
World problem) can be solved with technology, and all the bad things, and
negative externalities, can and should ber swept under the rug on the way to a
billion dollar exit.

~~~
philpem
What you've described sounds like SV (but not just SV) "Techbro" culture to
me...

~~~
Fins
Exactly that. Move fast, break things, and pretend it's a good thing.

Obviously not an SV-only thing, but the culture in SV glorifies it instead of
making it something you should be ashamed of.

------
jopsen
To be fair aren't most dog walkers paid extremely little? (Below minimum wage
even)

Many of these services like uber are effective means to underpay people. It
has upsides too, such as people having a job (beats having no job).

But I'm not surprised the walker didn't want to confront the client. Clients
are very unlikely to be calm reasonable people in this situation.

~~~
computerex
What's your point? You seem to be defending the walker when all we know is
that a dog was killed under the watch of this walker.

How is the walker's low wage relevant to this discussion? Just because they
get a low wage doesn't give them a right to kill dogs?

~~~
jopsen
I think I'm trying to suggest that people who walk dogs for a living might
have a hard time -- and, thus, we should show them compassion.

We could also pay people a living wage -- but showing compassion and
understanding is cheaper. (hints of sarcasm may occur)

------
gnicholas
Just looked up Wag's Terms and Conditions:

> _WAG!’S SERVICES MAY BE USED BY YOU TO REQUEST AND SCHEDULE PET CARE
> SERVICES WITH PET CARE PROVIDERS, BUT YOU AGREE THAT WAG! HAS NO
> RESPONSIBILITY OR LIABILITY TO YOU RELATED TO ANY PET CARE SERVICES PROVIDED
> TO YOU BY PET CARE PROVIDERS OTHER THAN AS EXPRESSLY SET FORTH IN THESE
> TERMS_

Obviously this does not excuse Wag's behavior here. They should obviously have
given the owners information about the walker so they can find out what
happened and bring suit against him/her if appropriate.

But it's not surprising Wag forces customers to disclaim liability here. I'd
guess that we'd need to see several of these incidents in a short period
before the backlash gets strong enough for Wag to modify the liability waiver.
Hopefully they'll change how they handle cases like these just based on the
justifiable outrage (assuming the author is fairly describing what happened)
from this one case.

------
krisoft
How do the owners know the dog is dead and not stolen?

Wouldn't a successful dognapping look the exact same from their perspective?

~~~
leni536
I don't think cremation would be on topic if the dog was stolen or lost.

~~~
krisoft
Wag offered to cover the cremation. The authors don't write that they got the
dog's body back. You are just assuming that.

------
whistlerbrk
We had a nightmare story with Wag. My sister's dog was being walked by a new
walker through Wag. The sitter brought our dog to a nearby fenced-in handball
court and let him off leash, which he was not supposed to do. Her dog went to
retrieve a ball that was stuck between the concrete padding and a chain link
fence and in so doing severed several arteries in his paw.

The handball court looked, no joke, like a multiple murder scene. Dogs have 7
arteries iirc through their paws and so there was blood - everywhere.

I know this because I happened to have left work early and was eating dinner
with my family nearby when my sister, away at work, gave me a frantic phone
call that the walker called, freaking out, that her dog hurt himself and 911
refused to pick him up.

I ran to my car as far as I could, drove down to this park, wrapped up his
paw, carried him into the car, and drove, breaking every light to the animal
hospital. Along the way NYPD pulled me over and upon finding out what was
going on, proceeded to escort us to the hospital, clearing the way (shout out
to the 88th).

If I wasn't home, I'm not sure her dog would have lived. He needed several
days in the hospital, blood transfusions and minor surgery. The walker could
not have handled it poorer, he was hyperventiliating, completely freaking out,
and couldn't get control of himself. I was nice to him, gave him water, calmed
him down, but jeez he was a mess. No training, no proper incident response.

Don't use Wag.

------
azhenley
Having just got a puppy less than two weeks ago, this is terrifying. I can’t
imagine the feeling of helplessness and shock that they must have felt.

~~~
jarfil
If you get ten more, at some point you realize that death happens, and all you
can do is care the best you can for them... then get a new one.

Of course this doesn't change the fact that Wag requiring an NDA in order to
take responsibility, is a total insult.

------
michaelmrose
Public response from wag [https://wagwalking.com/daily/an-open-letter-to-the-
wag-commu...](https://wagwalking.com/daily/an-open-letter-to-the-wag-
community?fbclid=IwAR0V5Dsk_PJR0Jeg_hMsbxe9POtpTxlhD03_S4zbxRe5Fx-
IGr_YMRxsPFk)

In particular

>Separately, we’ve taken a close look at one of our standard processes when
paying a claim. In the rare instance when there’s an incident in which we need
to work with the pet parents to make sure their needs are addressed, we’ve
required them to sign an agreement — a common practice in the business world.
It was so routine for us, in fact, that we didn’t pause to see if it made
sense for every situation...

How about admitting that trying to make you doing the right thing conditional
on them agreeing to be legally gagged was a horrifically morally repugnant way
to handle the situations. There is no situation where such an agreement is
beneficial to society and as such should be wholly illegal in all possible
cases.

------
ubermonkey
So, Wag is behaving appallingly here, but holy COW I would never trust this
kind of effectively anonymous service with my pets. I'm fine hiring a
rideshare, but for things that involve actual trust and stewardship of your
precious personal items when you're not around, it's FAR FAR BETTER to find an
actual human you can deal with consistently, and build a relationship with.

A somewhat lower-stakes (and older) version of this is hiring a
cleaning/housekeeping service like Merry Maids instead of an actual human.
Sure, maybe they're insured and bonded and have background checks and all
that, but it still seems riskier to me than finding an actual human who does
that work, and who comes recommended by a friend or colleague.

This is even more true of someone you'd trust your pets with.

------
azhenley
I hope they get a lawyer and keep us posted with updates.

~~~
celestialcheese
The best they could hope for is compensation for lost/damaged property. It's
messed up considering the human/dog bond, but AFAIK there isn't much they can
do legally.

If this gets picked up in the news cycles tomorrow that'll be FAR more
damaging.

------
vectorEQ
im just wondering why get a dog if you don't have time for it. seems cruel in
itself. a lot of people get dogs and can't walk them or have actual time for
them, yet they say they are like family or kids.... i'm sure you do have time
for them though :/

~~~
mav3rick
Why have babies if you are calling a babysitter ? Things happen, parents need
to go to adult events etc.

------
iamnotadogowner
Dogs are not people, people who have dogs have a responsibility... it annoys
me, as it does with children when it comes to teachers and daycare, that
abdication of this responsibility is largely monetary and comes with little
consideration. You cannot tell me that an app is the only way out of these
things. Try any number of normal human situations like paying a friend or
neighbor you trust.

The dogs should be looked after, but you should also not be exploiting people
who are worse off than yourself, for your own personal, convenient, cheap
abdication of responsibility.

(If you can't pay a friend or neighbor, possibly you are asking too much for
too little)

------
baroffoos
There is obviously fault to be attributed to the walker by lying about what
had happened but I think its worth thinking about how many animals are killed
by cars on a regular basis. We probably all know someone whos pets were killed
by cars and the local wildlife is regularly splattered across the roads. I
think we need to seriously slow down the speed of our roads to avoid killing
so many pets and endangered wildlife.

Its possible the walker was doing nothing terribly wrong and the dog was hit
and then the walker panicked and made some wrong choices in communication.

~~~
dahdum
My thought is that the text from the walker saying the dog was home safe
wasn’t the actual person who took the dog. In that case the vetted person
subcontracted to someone else, and perhaps didn’t know the dog had died at the
time of the text.

~~~
benatkin
This sounds likely to me. Maybe someone at Wag even suspects this happened but
thinks it's better if Wag doesn't know about it.

------
duggan
Not the first time Wag has made the news for mishandling (and killing)
pets[1][2].

[1]: [https://nypost.com/2018/05/14/embattled-dog-walking-app-
lose...](https://nypost.com/2018/05/14/embattled-dog-walking-app-loses-yet-
another-dog/)

[2]: [https://www.ajc.com/news/national/pet-dies-after-dog-
walker-...](https://www.ajc.com/news/national/pet-dies-after-dog-walker-
error/KbTHksxT6VuUdjXaFmySYJ/)

------
old_but_gold
Can't believe you naive people who put your trust in apps and these types of
services. The responsibility is entirely yours. You have to understand what
responsibility means.

------
damm
I think this is the problem with social media / networking... it used to be
when I was a young kid that if someone wanted t heir dog walked ... you would
find someone in your neighborhood that you knew.

Now we use online services and trust people blindly...

As far as the person who lost their dog; I am sorry. I know I did not cause
the harm; but it's the only thing I can say.

As a pet owner I would be mortified. I also don't trust anyone with my pets
(and they don't trust anyone). So it works out.

~~~
randycupertino
> Now we use online services and trust people blindly...

It's also so shockingly to create a fake profile and hire people off of reddit
slavelabour to write you good reviews. And meanwhile the pet owners hiring
randos off Wag to walk their dogs feel like they did their due diligence to
vet these gig workers by scrolling through the reviews and selecting the
highest rated person.

------
craftyguy
I actively block any/all facebook domains for privacy reasons, is this
mirrored elsewhere? The 'web' link here in HN is not showing anything useful.

~~~
nbrempel
[https://www.outline.com/AtNgH3](https://www.outline.com/AtNgH3)

------
ezoe
I was more surprised that service like Wag exists.

~~~
i_am_nomad
San Francisco was at one point inundated with their “Finally, an app for me to
pee!” billboards and signs.

~~~
metildaa
What was that, a bathroom rental service? Sounds like profiteering off basic
bodily functions, in a way that was previously uncommon & often socially
unacceptable.

~~~
wutbrodo
It's Wag, a service that matches you with available dog walkers. The pee-ers
in question were pets.

~~~
mikey_p
That said, there is actually an app for finding and paying to use a restroom:
[https://www.good2go.global/index.html](https://www.good2go.global/index.html)

------
A4ET8a8uTh0
I can relate and no doubt fellow dog owners do as well. Random death of a
family member can make a sane man mad. The author seems to handle it better
than I would have.

For a company that seemingly specializes in this service, it should be, if not
a dead blow, then a very painful lesson.

That said. Experian was never punished for what they did. Maybe if they killed
a puppy, people would care.

------
crispytx
That's the problem with lawyers and administrators. Wag should have just
ignored their lawyers and did the right thing. It's pretty easy to see what
happened here, the executives/administrators/lawyers at Wag are cowards, and
were too afraid to compensate these poor people without some sort of legal
agreement covering their asses.

------
tmsh
Maybe if enough people cc the LA DA office they will investigate these
complaints listed here and investigate. Just saying. It sounds like they’re
violating a lot of laws.

[https://twitter.com/p10q/status/1086188664563163136?s=21](https://twitter.com/p10q/status/1086188664563163136?s=21)

------
d357r0y3r
I'll get in any car with any stranger with Uber, no questions asked.

I would never trust a stranger to walk my dog.

------
michaelmrose
Has wag or a rep actually responded to this?

[https://www.facebook.com/WagWalking/](https://www.facebook.com/WagWalking/)

------
sathishmanohar
I feel really sorry that this happened but I am absolutely scared for the
future because the next stop is babysitting apps that doesn't give a damn
about users

------
rb666
So incredibly sad, and disgusting behavior by Wag.

------
jwilk
Archived copy that works with JS disabled:

[https://archive.ph/nPkP9](https://archive.ph/nPkP9)

------
dustincnj79
I myself would only entrust my pet to someone I would equally entrust my child
to and it wouldn't be from someone or service purchased on the internet or
whatever means it was saught out without meeting the individual first and
requesting a background check of said individual. I feel sorry for the owner
of the pet but they also need to do their due diligence.

------
antisthenes
Well, I never knew what Wag was before this, but I guess I won't be using them
in the future.

------
bibinou
mirror / archive: [http://archive.fo/nPkP9](http://archive.fo/nPkP9)

------
hema_n
How rudely they responded.

------
King-Aaron
This makes my blood boil.

------
Siemens
Sounds like the dog was kidnapped to be sold for a profit.

------
dustincnj79
I agree losing a pet is like losing a family member and in certain
circumstances much worse. I have had many losses in my life including family
members best friends who have died in front of me as well as pets who have
died from illness or old age. However never have I lost a pet through using a
device that is supposed to make something easier for a pet owner to accomplish
a set goal like walk a dog. I am not sure what this device is or why it was
being used, if it was out of necessity or laziness. However regardless of
either situation I agree and believe that a company that produced this product
should show overwhelming support for the family that lost the dog and do
whatever it is they can do to make it right. Since this company manufactures
products for pets they need to take a stand showing how important animals are
in there mission statement as well as their actions after this incident.
Imagine how frustrated and pissed off people get when drug manufacturers raise
prices on necessary drug just increase their profit margin. I believe this is
both immoral and inhumane however people do have an option of where they will
purchase their pet needs from and likely they will not choose a company that
is not show a sense of compassion for the species they are creating products
for. It would be a huge blunder on their image not take such a strong stance
as stated in the comments above. Just like people not all pets mean the same
thing 2 the same people. However when you do find a best friend in a four-
legged creature there is nothing that differentiates them from other members
of your family in my opinion. My dog was not only my best friend but he had
helped me through many issues that my family had abandoned me on. Therefore
when my dog passed away from cancer around the same time I had end-stage renal
failure I felt a sense of relief that both myself as well as my best would
likely die around the same time because for me there was no life without my
dog. However unfortunately I did get better and my dog did not which I cannot
hold anybody accountable for but I did suffer from severe depression and
anxiety greater than any I have ever suffered from losing a fellow human being
maybe that makes me a monster but that is honestly how I felt. To me a life is
a life whether it is your dog your family a cat or any other animal. Not one
species has more of a right to live then any other. I do understand that not
everybody has the same experience or thinks the same way as I do in this
situation or many others people often have conflicting morals or points of
view which prove to be based on a specific person's experience , individuality
and morality which another individual also commented below. What I do know for
sure is that when given the choice of supporting a company or no longer
supporting a company in effect boycotting them that should only be done when
the company does not stand behind their product or the species they are
manufacturing products for.

------
black-tea
So people are paying to get their dogs walked now? What is going on? We're
supposed to be working less, not more.

------
usr1987
You should never be a dog owner. If you can't be there for them, you do not
have them. I feel sorry for the dog, not you!

~~~
mial
Yes. Also this

> Sara and I will welcoming a new puppy from the same breeder in February—Rory

Just go and get one from a shelter instead of encouraging animal breeding
which is an unethical practice [0]

[0] [https://www.peta.org/issues/animal-companion-issues/pet-
trad...](https://www.peta.org/issues/animal-companion-issues/pet-
trade/breeders/)

~~~
senderista
By the same logic, no one should have biological children as long as there are
children in need of adoption. I think that's actually a defensible position,
but it's a pretty extreme one nonetheless.

------
ncr100
Trust is not bought or rightly earned through 5 stars.

Our technology is being used to perpetuate tragedies.

We have no ethics organisations, for encouraging ethical usage of Computer
Science.

------
wewake
Are we going to link FB posts on HackerNews now?

