
W3schools.dev Redirects to Mozilla Developer Network - fka
http://w3schools.dev
======
duxup
I know at one point w3schools.com was a bit out of date but they seemed to
update it.

As someone who has changed careers and moved into web development I found
w3schools.com did a nice job of complementing MDN as if I was unfamiliar with
the concept (or just forgot entirely) w3 was a good "layman's terms" stop just
to start. And if I needed a more technical / granular detail, MDN.

I really wouldn't want to use one without the other.

Many years ago I took some C programming classes in college. It was in the
early days of the internet and it was very much a "here's the book, a bit of
lecture, now sit alone at your computer and do it". MDN can feel that way at
times where it's example is ultra specific and while nothing is technically
wrong.... it's like learning a language with a dictionary. w3schools.com fills
that gap nicely.

At the same time if I need the dictionary to figure out more precisely how
something works and all my options, it's MDN all the way.

~~~
teddyh
W3Schools also used to be quite bad and misleading; this is an old page with a
huge list of problems with W3Schools:

[https://web.archive.org/web/20110117085131/http://w3fools.co...](https://web.archive.org/web/20110117085131/http://w3fools.com/)

~~~
onli
Used to is the important word here. They improved a lot.

I like them. MDN is great, but w3schools is better in giving examples on how
to use stuff.

~~~
umanwizard
EDIT: It seems that Python lists are in fact arrays. Cool, so Python does in
fact support arrays. Seems a pretty important fact to point out on a page
called "Python Arrays".

Original comment:

There is still some complete nonsense on w3schools. For example, I wanted to
know recently whether Python supports arrays. The first result on Google is
this page:
[https://www.w3schools.com/python/python_arrays.asp](https://www.w3schools.com/python/python_arrays.asp)

There is a small disclaimer at the top stating: "Note: Python does not have
built-in support for Arrays, but Python Lists can be used instead."

Why the fuck is your page called "Python Arrays" if you don't plan to talk
about arrays?

Then the rest of the page talks about lists, while erroneously calling them
arrays, in complete defiance of the disclaimer. I imagine what happened is
that someone who doesn't know what an array is wrote the page originally, then
someone else came by later and realized it was wrong, but instead of actually
fixing it, slapped that half-assed disclaimer on top.

I still don't know whether stock Python actually supports arrays. I ended up
just importing Numpy.

~~~
scrollaway
"Array" is a pretty loosely defined term that varies from language to
language. Python lists are what you may know as "variable-length arrays" of
python objects (in other words: not type constrained). If you want type-
constrained arrays, you'll use the array module:
[https://docs.python.org/3/library/array.html](https://docs.python.org/3/library/array.html)

that w3schools page is indeed nonsense. They should probably stick to JS.

~~~
umanwizard
Python lists may well be implemented as arrays. I don't know if they are or
not, as I haven't read the Python interpreter source code.

If they are, then the article is even worse, as the disclaimer that Python
doesn't have arrays is a lie!

~~~
cferr
Everything in Python is implemented as a dict behind the scenes, which is
implemented in C with a few different types. Python does have arrays in the
standard library's array module, so yes saying python doesn't have arrays
would be a lie.

------
XCabbage
Lots of people are commenting to say that W3Schools is now fine. I disagree.
On the rare occasion that I end up interacting with them in some way, I find
errors.

My Stack Overflow post history contains three mentions of W3Schools, all of
which involve W3Schools making an error:

* [https://stackoverflow.com/q/20610930/1709587](https://stackoverflow.com/q/20610930/1709587), about W3Schools stating falsely that it's necessary to explicitly add `type="submit"` to submit buttons in HTML to ensure cross-browser compatibility.

* [https://stackoverflow.com/a/52355253/1709587](https://stackoverflow.com/a/52355253/1709587), in which W3Schools makes false claims about the `colspan` attribute - both about what the specs say about it, and about how browsers implement it.

* [https://stackoverflow.com/a/46866568/1709587](https://stackoverflow.com/a/46866568/1709587), where W3Schools suggests a JavaScript function to shuffle an array which both technically invokes undefined behaviour under the ECMAScript standard and which does not fairly shuffle arrays in practice in real browsers.

None of these things are fixed. The fact that they tidied up the specific
errors that the W3Fools team listed, in response to the biggest ever hostile
PR campaign that W3Schools ever faced, does not mean that they are now a
decent, error-free source. Far from it.

~~~
tapland
I don't do web programming, but that sounds extremely minor compared to
practices taught in a lot of books.

~~~
ben509
Books have a very wide range of standards, though, so there are a lot of books
that are vanity projects or from bottom tier publishers.

Fundamentally, W3Schools is a content mill for technical material, and they
prioritize SEO over accuracy.

------
hyperpape
Many years ago, when w3schools was truly terrible, a bunch of prominent
developers created [https://www.w3fools.com](https://www.w3fools.com) to
promote MDN. Nowadays, that site reads

 _Today, W3Schools has largely resolved these issues and addressed the
majority of the undersigned developers ' concerns. For many beginners,
W3Schools has structured tutorials and playgrounds that offer a decent
learning experience. Do keep in mind: a more complete education will certainly
include MDN and other reputable resources._

~~~
patrickaljord
I've always disagreed with this and hated the level of snobbism. w3schools was
always better and still is better than MDN at what it is intended. w3school
gives quick and simple answers to most basic web dev questions. MDN's examples
are way more complex and are usually hidden under a wall of text, sure their
documentation are more complete which is great if you're a student or need the
whole spec. But if you're a dev trying to get something done, it's the best
with stackoverflow now and github issues.

~~~
hyperpape
I agree that MDN is not always at the right level of detail for a lot of
questions, but the archived version of w3fools shows some truly awful errors.
The w3schools content just didn't meet a minimal bar of accuracy back then.

------
nwhatt
I wish google would automatically put MDN at the top of search results. As it
is I have to scroll through 4 or so other links before getting the MDN result.

~~~
amelius
Also I wish I could just exclude any given site from my search results.

Google insists on having my information so they can "serve me content tailored
to my wishes". Well, Google ... drop the w3schools already!

~~~
syn0byte
Just add "site:-domain.com" to any given search query.

~~~
XCabbage
Yeah, but that approach is annoying and pointless. Typing that is no faster
than scrolling past the w3schools results when they appear, so why would I do
it?

I Google loads of stuff each day. I want to drop w3schools from _all_ my
results, _automatically_.

~~~
yesenadam
Then make the default search on your startpage add that to queries
automatically.

p.s. I mostly learnt how to do that on w3schools. :-)

------
fuball63
Unpopular opinion time, but MDN != W3schools.

W3schools may have questionable content. It may have content that is not
trendy or latest/greatest. The security concerns are important, but if we're
really being honest with ourselves most of the vitriol is pedantic superiority
complex attitude that permeates tech conversation.

W3schools is a gateway to learn web technologies. If you go to the homepage,
above the fold is tutorials, learn HTML, learn Javascript in plain sight. MDN
is a search bar.

I learned PHP in high school from w3schools. I don't use it now; I use the PHP
docs. I learned how to host an HTML site from w3schools; now I reference
Apache docs because I know what even a webserver is. I once got a CD from
McDonalds that kickstarted me being a lifelong fan of one of my favorite
artists. I'm sure all of the "hardcore" fans would look down on me for that
too.

Anyone serious about web dev pulls for multiple sources all of the time;
probably from w3schools and mdn at the same time. People grow. Sites like this
are important, although imperfect.

------
timvisee
[https://vim.dev/](https://vim.dev/)

~~~
dbdjfjrjvebd
I am confused. I expected an editor but the link goes to a promising looking
OS? Can anyone recommend a good editor for this Emacs OS? Maybe someone has
ported ViM?

~~~
mercer
That's just Evil!

------
thatguyagain
Does any of these redirections matter? Does anyone ever just spontaniously
visit somedomain.dev anyway? You google w3school and go to the top result,
right?

~~~
duxup
Well now it's in all of our browser history so until we clear our history it's
going to autocomplete .... dang it.

------
fka
vim.dev redirection is evil, w3schools.dev redirection is gift.

~~~
agumonkey
> vim.dev redirection is evil, w3schools.dev redirection is gift.

vim.dev redirection is eval

------
sigzero
Is this supposed to mean something?

~~~
pluma
Probably someone bought the domain as a joke or to lead young developers in
the right direction.

------
callahad
We at Mozilla are glad folks love MDN, but domain squatting kinda sucks for
everyone. MDN can stand on its own. :)

------
bastawhiz
In my experience, w3schools provides mediocre documentation and bad code
snippets. The things they suggest are not good practices, in many cases, and
serve only the folks looking for some easy copypasta without needing to really
understand what their code is doing. Rather than suggest using a framework
(half of their snippets could be replaced with a single line of jQuery) they
put bad or half-baked advice out into the world with no good explanation of
what the code they're giving you is actually doing.

~~~
onli
Gosh, a framework? Their job is to show examples on how to use ~~web
attributes~~basic web elements and pure Javascript. Which is btw exactly what
MDN does as well on those function pages. jQuery has no place there and the
modern web developer crowd (which I'm not a part of) even regards it as
legacy, to be replaced with React etc. No, the focus on the real basics is
exactly right.

~~~
bastawhiz
But they're rarely "the basics". Search for Ajax on w3schools and you'll be
greeted with code samples for loading XML CD catalogs and replacing the
contents of <div>s with HTML loaded without error handling. And of course,
there's no explanations for any of it. It's never been "the basics," it's
never been about quality, it's a content farm to pull in junior devs with
outdated copypasta so they can show ads. Plain and simple.

jQuery is not sexy or modern, but w3school's supposed tutorials are ancient,
teach bad practices (find me an XHR example that doesn't use ready State), and
work objectively less well than their framework (or modern JS) counterparts.
For the market they're serving, they're leading to _worse_ software being
built.

~~~
onli
That's not fair. The article you mention is
[https://www.w3schools.com/xml/ajax_applications.asp](https://www.w3schools.com/xml/ajax_applications.asp),
and it comes _after_ a sound and basic introduction of the XMLHttpRequest
element.

> _find me an XHR example that doesn 't use ready State_

I absolutely see no problem with using readystate.

> _and work objectively less well than their framework (or modern JS)
> counterparts_

Come on, that's silly. What's called modern JS and what those super heavy
framework use are in no way objectively better. To confront beginners with all
their overhead (build tools for JS! Just crazy) is in no way helpful.

~~~
bastawhiz
> I absolutely see no problem with using readystate.

We have a load event now. Ready state is the legacy cruft left behind by
Microsoft a decade ago. Let's not confuse new devs with magic numbers and
convoluted events that are often cargo-culted incorrectly.

> To confront beginners with all their overhead (build tools for JS! Just
> crazy) is in no way helpful.

People have been dropping a jQuery CDN script tag on their pages since well
before most build tools were invented. W3schools has _multiple_ "tutorials"
that could be replaced with $('...').load('...').

It's rich when HN complains about websites that do things like break middle
click and browser history and lack error states, but then advocate for trash
code like w3schools peddles that makes these bad practices more common.

~~~
onli
If you are only talking jQuery when referring to frameworks my bloat and build
tools arguments don't apply, that was for real frameworks like react. jQuery
is fine in that regard, it's just not the modern choice anymore, without being
vanilla js. It would be strange to boost a legacy solution like that.

------
bdorn
_Always_ MDN over W3. Especially if you're unfamiliar with a concept - the
latter just creates a lapse in understanding.

------
Gaelan
Note that w3schools.com does not.

~~~
anoncake
I first thought that w3schools had closed shop or been bought by Mozilla.
These new TLDs just cause confusion.

------
kevinsimper
I tried improving mdn with examples of window.alert, which is laughable right
now, but my PR was not approved because MDN was structured differently than
the browser API.

[https://github.com/mdn/interactive-
examples/pull/1266](https://github.com/mdn/interactive-examples/pull/1266)

Like the page literally, have a screenshot of a old school OS alert box?

[https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/API/Window/aler...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/API/Window/alert)

------
bichiliad
Is there some ulterior motive behind W3Schools besides to teach people web
stuff (and to maintain its own existence, which is no different than MDN)? I
use MDN because Mozilla literally implements a browser, and I'm not the
biggest fan of W3Schools, but this mostly just feels petty. Tons of people get
valuable answers from both sites.

------
tannhaeuser
What I don't understand is how w3fools got onto their first ranking position
for _every single web dev topic_ there is on both ddg and G.

1) meaning w3schools not the w3fools parody site

------
zaarn
People might want to be careful with all these domain names; they might loose
them to the proper owner of the trademark or name (in this case
w3schools.com).

------
CydeWeys
And MDN is also using [https://mdn.dev](https://mdn.dev)

------
debacle
I prefer w3schools. Their site is easier to search than MDN and I get the
information I need more quickly. MDN is more valuable if I need to check
browser support or figure out an edge case.

People who have a hate hardon for w3schools are the kind of people who will
judge you for the kind of dish soap you use.

I'm certain w3schools will claim the domain in short order.

------
appsonify
W3schools helped me land my first job. I learned pretty much everything by
reading through it, HTML, Javascript, CSS, PHP, MySQL....don't get why people
are bashing them, it was a great resource to have a around.

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thisisweirdok
As much as I prefer MDN, W3Schools is fine now.

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Numberwang
Trashy and disgusting. I hope it's not Mozilla doing this.

~~~
CydeWeys
Obviously not.

