
American Kids Aren't Getting Dumber; They Were Just Never That Smart - wybo
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/features/view/feature/American-Kids-Arent-Getting-Dumber-They-Were-Just-Never-That-Smart-3189
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rriepe
_"It's a myth that we've fallen from our glory days."_

This one seems to pop up a lot. Not just in education, but in everything. Is
it just a sort of cultural nostalgia, a collective-but-selective memory? I'd
be interested in seeing studies on it.

~~~
yan
I find that that statement personifies the difference between conservatism and
liberalism at its core: contrasting the glory of better days through more
idealist eyes to the glorified potential utopia of the future.

~~~
michaelchisari
Although more about social values than education, the book "The Way We Never
Were: American Families And The Nostalgia Trap" just came up in conversation
recently, and it deals specifically with the way we view the past through rose
colored glasses.

[http://www.amazon.com/Way-We-Never-Were-
Nostalgia/dp/0465090...](http://www.amazon.com/Way-We-Never-Were-
Nostalgia/dp/0465090974)

~~~
rriepe
Thanks, I'll add it to my reading list.

...actually, do you have anything older to recommend? Books these days just
don't seem to measure up.

~~~
michaelchisari
_...actually, do you have anything older to recommend? Books these days just
don't seem to measure up._

I was about to argue with you, and then... touché. :)

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anon098
For those still unware, here is the politically incorrect truth about PISA and
America's subpar performance on it: <http://buchanan.org/blog/who-owns-the-
future-4587>

"True, East Asians - Chinese, Koreans, Japanese - are turning in the top
scores in all three categories, followed by the Europeans, Canadians,
Australians and New Zealanders.

"But, looking down the New York Times list of the top 30 nations, one finds
not a single Latin American nation, not a single African nation, not a single
Muslim nation, not a single South or Southeast Asian nation (save Singapore)
[which is Han Chinese], not a single nation of the old Soviet Union except
Latvia and Estonia."

...

"Steve Sailer of VDARE.com got the full list of 65 nations, broke down U.S.
reading scores by race, then measured Americans with the countries and
continents whence their families originated. What he found was surprising.

"Asian-Americans outperform all Asian students except for Shanghai-Chinese.
White Americans outperform students from all 37 predominantly white nations
except Finns, and U.S. Hispanics outperformed the students of all eight Latin
American countries that participated in the tests.

"African-American kids would have outscored the students of any sub-Saharan
African country that took the test (none did) and did outperform the only
black country to participate, Trinidad and Tobago, by 25 points."

Here is the chart: <http://www.vdare.com/sailer/101219_pisa.htm>

~~~
michaelchisari
VDARE is a hate group, which often republishes white supremacists. With such a
clear, ideological bias, I would hope that people here would know better than
to accept their conclusions without some serious corroboration or fact-
checking.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VDARE>

~~~
byrneseyeview
Has anyone disputed them? This seems like a great example of an _ad hominem_
attack--you haven't had to question their data, or their logic, just the fact
that they've found an argument supporting their conclusions.

That's a good way to talk past people. If you're legitimately concerned with
their views, this is a great opportunity to identify what flaws there are with
this argument, instead of the ways you already disagreed with the conclusion.

I mean, think about this in terms of who is contributing to the argument.
Vdare: "Here is some analysis of the data, revealing what may be surprising
results!" You: "Like most people, I disagree with VDare's conclusions. I'm not
going to address their arguments, and I'd like to warn others against doing
so, too." Who is contributing, here?

~~~
Locke1689
If the source started as disreputable then it is wise to weigh its conclusions
lighter than more reputable sources. It's not an ad hominem attack, it's
inductive reasoning.

~~~
byrneseyeview
It's still _ad hominem_ , even if it's also inductive reasoning.

I'm still hoping for a follow-up addressing the claims, rather than the person
making those claims.

------
solipsist
" _We should stop talking about some golden age of schooling that never
existed, and instead look for ways to create one._ "

As I posted on another thread, everyone should watch this video if they have
the time:
[http://www.ted.com/talks/conrad_wolfram_teaching_kids_real_m...](http://www.ted.com/talks/conrad_wolfram_teaching_kids_real_math_with_computers.html)

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nhangen
I could care less about test scores and baseline performance in measured
tests. What I care about is drive, inspiration, motivation, and innovation.

Sure, the US doesn't have a monopoly on any of that, but I'm not ashamed of
what our best and brightest are doing.

~~~
auxbuss
It's "couldn't care less". When you say "could care less" you are endorsing
the claim of American Kids Getting Dumber. If you still don't get it:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw>

~~~
nhangen
Eh, you get the point, but thanks for the catch. Fixed...or not. Can't edit
because of the reply. Darn.

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mkramlich
i've often thought that many Americans were not necessarily more talented or
innately intelligent than folks in worse off areas of the world. they were
just lucky to be born in a nation and time when they had a silver spoon in
their mouth, in relative terms. With increasing globalization of the economy,
that is coming to end, which sucks, but probably inevitable.

