
VP of Engineering - "best of the best" = no more than 12 years experience? - polemic
http://www.jobscore.com/jobs/500friendsinc/vp-of-engineering/cWzS0cMM0r4OrNeJe4egig?detail=HackerNews&remail=&rfirst=&rlast=&sid=161
======
geuis
This is going to probably bite me in the ass because I'm looking for work at
the moment and occasionally apply to interesting YC companies but since this
has come up, I'm going to share my story here because of the negative
experience I had with the company in question.

I had a phone screen with 500friends recently. They were late calling me, and
the person I was scheduled to talk with wasn't even on the call. They had
pulled some poor engineer off of whatever he was doing, shoved my resume in
front of him, and said "go".

The list of things that our "interview" contained:

    
    
        1) Late in calling me at our scheduled time.
        2) Scheduled person was not present on our interview call.
        3) Engineer that was put on the call was ill-prepared for the conversation.
        4) Questions asked of me were a combination of very basic and others being completely unrelated to the nature of the position being interviewed for. 
        5) The scheduled person appeared at the end of the call barely long enough to say his name before hanging up on me.
        6) Hung up on me suddenly.
    

#6 was what really got me. It was literally, "Hi this is <x>, we're out of
time, click."

If you advertise a position as requiring a certain set of skills, then ask
prospective employees about those skills! Go through their experiences and see
if they're a good engineer outside of the narrow scope of "solves logic
puzzles well". You might be surprised that someone who doesn't normally write
linked lists in javascript or implement 2500 year old prime-solving algorithms
on a weekly basis actually has skills and experience to contribute.

My personal recommendation for anyone considering 500friends is to skip over
them. There's much better companies more deserving of your time and
consideration, and you'll certainly be treated better.

## Just to add on, I don't have a problem with logic problems. But too many
people _only_ ask them and don't do real interviews. Yes, I can do linked
lists in javascript. Does that tell you anything useful about what kind of
engineer I am? No, it doesn't.

~~~
rdouble
Not to excuse that sort of behavior, but this is a pretty typical HR
experience in the Bay Area. Late calls, no-shows, awkward questions, either
too easy or too hard, abrupt endings, obviously haven't read the resume, etc.
Happens all the time, unfortunately.

~~~
brown9-2
The good news for the candidate is this type of behavior is a great leading
indicator of what working for the company will be like.

~~~
__--__
Is it, though? Every company in the Bay Area I've ever worked for (and a few
that weren't in the bay area) has hit multiple items on the parent's list.
Even the ones who have their shit together and were a blast to work at gave
horrible interviews.

Interviews are hard.

~~~
rhizome
_Even the ones who have their shit together and were a blast to work at gave
horrible interviews._

Fundamental attribution error. It was luck that they turned out to be a
compatible work situation.

~~~
__--__
Are you saying that my personality is the reason other people can't conduct an
interview? I agree I don't interview well, but that has nothing to do with a
third party I've never met being able to show up on time.

~~~
rhizome
It was not a personal comment. The fundamental attribution error is that it
turned out to be a compatible working relationship despite bad interviewing on
the company's part. Aside from giving you an interview, nothing the company
did during the recruiting process put the right person in the seat. It was
just luck that it worked out, and just as often, if not more, it doesn't.

------
KevinEldon
One way to interpret this is that the Agile Manifesto was published in 2001,
so although it's possible you managed agile teams before 2001 it's unlikely,
or if you've been successfully managing agile teams since before the manifesto
and you're interested in a startup... what's wrong w/ you (seriously... if
you're crushing it w/ agile for 12 years and now enterprises are all scrum-
happy and you aren't making boatloads of cash consulting why are you
considering a startup... oh, you're a serial startup guy... that's cool then
you won't give a shit about some nonsense in a job posting, you'll work your
network to get an interview or contact the founders directly and convince them
you're worth talking to... and if you can't do that you're probably not VP
material. No?)

One way to respond to this kind of job posting is "fuck that, I'm not going to
waste my time w/ that shit".

~~~
el_fuser
Nah... Lightweight processes were discussed as alternatives to waterfall way
back in the 90s during my software engineering courses. "Rapid application
development" and RAtional unified process were the "hot" lightweight
methodologies when I started work in 1996. Scrum has been with us since 1995.

~~~
KevinEldon
Agree, no debate about when you might have managed agile teams... could be
you're Ken Schwaber (yeah, had to look up his name), but it then begs the 2nd
question I raised... why would you want to do a startup? If you have 12+ years
of experience with what is now a very hot process why, why?, WHY? would you
want to work at a startup?

A VP role doesn't sound like a C __role. It doesn 't sound like a really big
equity play. You're not going to be a founder w/ a big payout (probably). So
why do it?

I'm repeating myself. It really doesn't matter at all... someone will apply or
they will not and the company will hire the right person or they will not...
you and I will go along with our lives just fine.

~~~
el_fuser
I think you're overestimating how hot of a skill that actually is... But even
if you could make "boatloads" of cash consulting, not everyone desires the
road warrior lifestyle that goes along with consulting.

------
fingerprinter
This is totally off topic, and might be considered a rant, but I see this from
time-to-time in startup land.

Not understanding titles.

First, this is for a "vp of engineering" that is "hands on". Are you really
looking for an architect that codes? Perhaps a Sr. Engineer/Team lead? Do the
engineers directly report to this "vp of engineering"? What happens when the
team gets to big?

Second, you are locking yourself into something prematurely. If you want
someone hands on with management experience and capacity to grow into a future
leader, state that and start looking. Make your interview quick on the
technical assessment, heavy on the social and ask "what would you do in ..."
or "how would you handle this ..." type of questions. See if the person has 1.
experience 2. common sense or 3. good intuition on process/people.

Lastly, what does the rest of the company look like when the VP of Engineering
clearly has an inflated title. Are all the C level/VP level people equally
inflated?

Anyway, sorry for the rant. It seems a common occurrence in Startupsville to
see people running around with titles that mean nothing for the sake of having
the title.

"Oh, cool. I'm the VP of engineering at blah blah".

"nice, what do you do everyday."

"Oh, you know, code reviews".

Whatever.

~~~
kamaal
>>First, this is for a "vp of engineering" that is "hands on". Are you really
looking for an architect that codes?

Sorry but why can't a VP of engineering be somebody who should code(even if
occasionally) or some who could be competent at a code review. Its precisely
this kind of attitude that gives ammunition to the MBA culture of appointing
people who are clueless about their current job to manage the best people
under them.

The net result is getting people appointed who know nothing about the people
they managing, or the line of work. And just take blanket common sense based
decision which most of the times are wrong with regards to the domain they
lead.

Regardless of who you are- architect, VP or whatever fancy title. If you claim
to be the leader of a group of people with some specific skills you should be
somebody who at the very least has mastered those skills.

According to me anybody who claims to lead a group must be the best among that
group, in the job that group performs.

~~~
jacques_chester
> _According to me anybody who claims to lead a group must be the best among
> that group, in the job that group performs._

I think this is an error. Taking your best coder and then spending their time
on not-coding is wasteful of their talents.

Furthermore, insofar as you create competition to hold that position, you're
creating a destructive work environment. Software development is a cooperative
activity that can't be efficiently partitioned.

~~~
kamaal
>>Taking your best coder and then spending their time on not-coding is
wasteful of their talents.

Or the way I look at it, such a guy in a leader ship position can mentor young
passionate folks to be just like him.

>>Furthermore, insofar as you create competition to hold that position

Having competent guys compete for a position is far better than promoting a
total idiot to lead such guys.

>>you're creating a destructive work environment.

How is appointing a competent guy creating a destructive work environment, and
appointing an incompetent guy not creating a demotivating environment.

Most demotivating part of my day is when I spend time with my higher ups,
explaining them some very basics things like SQL or regular expressions or
about network call latency which most of the times they have no clue of. Many
times its so bad, you really have to talk to them like you talk to your 9 year
old nephew and even after hours of explaining things are so bad they can't
really get simple things like the difference between a DOM parser and a SAX
parser.

I am not saying the guy must code like a champion 24x7. But he should have
atleast been some one who has built a thing or two under tough demanding
deadlines. Some one who has leaned stuff doing it by experience and not just
some guy whose only known accomplishment is being at the right place at the
right time, riding an economic wave or being some god father manager's yes
man.

>>Software development is a cooperative activity that can't be efficiently
partitioned.

Exactly that is why we need one of us to lead us.

~~~
jacques_chester
> _How is appointing a competent guy creating a destructive work environment,
> and appointing an incompetent guy not creating a demotivating environment._

Because you based it on competition.

Holding that position, which presumably comes with better pay, perks and a
résumé line item, is a _zero sum game_.

Everything good that programmer A does for the company now directly
disadvantages programmer B and vice versa.

Do you think this creates conditions conducive to cooperative efforts like
developing and maintaining complex software?

If you want to pick a leader, _pick a leader yourself_. Boohoo, it's hard and
you might hurt people's feelings. Well too bad. Picking leaders is itself an
act of leadership. Too many senior managers shirk the responsibility of
growing a cadre of good managers by connecting it all to numbers that
encourage destructive behaviour. It's the lazy and gutless way to lead.

See _Measuring and Managing Performance in Organizations_ for a full
enumeration of why having people compete for a tech leadership job would
easily destroy any small company.

~~~
kamaal
You would be correct if compensation of any individual in our society would be
independent of their title/position in the hierarchy. Unfortunately its not.

Either way competition is inevitable- If its not from the inside, it will be
far worse- from the outside. And in most cases companies have to acqui-hire
people or purchase out an entire product line because they just can't get
innovation out of their own people.

But the sad fact is its not current employees are at fault here. Unless you
are super foolish, why should you ever work hard when some guy who isn't doing
1/10th work you do or is 1/100th as competent take all the credit, money and
power stealing your work? The net result is no one contributes, the company
struggles and buys their life saving kits every now and them from the outside.

And no competent person will accept a incompetent person over them, especially
when getting a job or doing a start up/side project is so easy these days. How
many times have we seen companies that claim to hire all super candidates with
all those algo/ds questions routinely acquire start ups at big prices, yet
they can't get something half decent out of their super star regular hires.

If you look down below, you will see it all gets down to incompetent middle
management.

>>Too many senior managers shirk the responsibility of growing a cadre of good
managers by connecting it all to numbers that encourage destructive behavior.

No, they do it because they know competent folks will grow and become a threat
do their positions.

~~~
jacques_chester
I really think you should read that book I mentioned. It's by Robert D Austin,
published by Dorset House.

------
freework
This company has been looking for a VP of Engineering since at least last
summer. I applied for this position back then. They got back to me with a
ridiculous busy-work problem they wanted me to solve. I forgot then about
them.

~~~
justinY
It has been no longer than 3 months...

~~~
hga
That's _worse_ , it means you're running through them rather quickly....

~~~
justinY
My co-founder was previously the (only) VP of Engineering (and did a great
job), but we mutually parted ways after the Series B. These things happen...

tl;dr, we are not "running through" them.

~~~
hga
Your earliest press releases are from 2 years ago. How can you have lost that
"only" VP of Engineering who as your co-founder was part of the team back
then, be recruiting for the position a year ago, and be recruiting for the
position now, but this time it is only been for the last 3 months ... well, I
suppose you could have just not actively tried to fill the position during the
gap, but that at least suggests it's not really that important. And why didn't
you mention that?

~~~
justinY
That's because he (bob tekiela) was at 500friends until may of 2013.

In other words, op is lying/mistaken because we were not hiring for this role
last year.

------
qnk
I am not a lawyer, but is this not illegal in the U.S.? Checking The U.S.
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission website[1], it says under the
"PROHIBITION OF AGE DISCRIMINATION" section:

    
    
      (e) Printing or publication of notice or advertisement indicating preference, limitation, etc.
    

[1]
[http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/adea.cfm](http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/adea.cfm)

~~~
clone1018
Seems like they're breaking the law to me, but it's not completely black and
white. In the odd chance it would happen, wouldn't saying "20+ years of
experience required", prevent anyone younger then 20 years from joining the
company?

~~~
dlgeek
Actually, in the US, discrimination against younger people isn't illegal -
it's only illegal to discriminate the other way 'round.

~~~
hkmurakami
and iirc only applies to 40+ years of age or something along those lines.

~~~
frostmatthew
40 is correct
[http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm](http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm)

------
chetanahuja
Yeah obviously. Who wants to hire gross old people in their shiny new startup.

~~~
muench
Agile is only 12 years old [1], so it might be related to the old programmer
joke about HR posting job ads that require 'x' years experience with 'y' year-
old tech, for some x > y.

But that's grasping at straws, and if that is the intention it's a really
unfortunate way of putting it.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development)

* edited to address the < / > mistake MaysonL pointed out. Thanks!

~~~
MaysonL
The joke is actually only funny for x > y ;-)

~~~
muench
thanks, you're right. edited it now.

I'd claim that I subconsciously 'corrected' it, but let's be honest: what good
would a post about a typical HR error be without a typical programmer error!

------
el_fuser
Not only is it blatantly ageist... It's stupid.

They want someone that has been building engineering organizations for 5-12
years, _after_ having been an individual contributor.

 _Then_ , they want you to drop back into an individual contributor role. At
least initially. Wink wink nudge nudge.

~~~
emidln
It's not ageist. It doesn't say People who are 50 need not apply. From reading
this job posting, someone who is 80, worked as a mechanic, a waiter, a clerk,
and then picked up some newfangled technology might qualify.

Besides the whole Agile not being codified for more than 12 years thing, if
you've been out of the loop managing for 12 years, they say they don't want
you. Part of the process apparently involves showing that your technical
skills are still there.

~~~
el_fuser
As i posted above... Lightweight processes were discussed as alternatives to
waterfall way back in the 90s during my software engineering courses. "Rapid
application development" and RAtional unified process were the "hot"
lightweight methodologies when I started work in 1996. Scrum has been with us
since 1995.

And yes, it's blatantly ageist... It falls under the disparate impact
provision:

"In addition to prohibiting intentional discrimination against older workers
(known as “disparate treatment”), the ADEA prohibits practices that, although
facially neutral with regard to age, have the effect of harming older workers
more than younger workers (known as “disparate impact”), unless the employer
can show that the practice is based on an RFOA."

------
jbae29
It appears to say that they want (ideally) someone with 5-12 years of
experience managing a team, after a successful career as an individual
contributor. To me, that implies that they don't someone who has been just a
manager for the last twenty years.

So it's possible that you could have been a developer for twenty years and
then a manager for ten years and still be within their ideal range.
Considering the CEO is about 24 years old, it's hard to believe that that is
the case, though it is possible.

~~~
justinY
YES, YOU ARE CORRECT, THANK YOU.

And my team is very senior - check them out @ 500friends.com/team. We
definitely value experience at 500friends.

------
nilkn
Maybe they assume someone with 12+ years of experience would demand a higher
salary than they can offer? They might identify such a candidate with a
C-level position like CTO more than a VP position. I don't really know; I'm
just trying to come up with a non-ageist explanation.

It might not be any different from how someone with 5+ years of experience
normally wouldn't be considered for junior roles.

Or it might just be ageist.

~~~
rhizome
So...put a top salary number in the ad? If this is a hard question, maybe they
should be asking it in their interviews instead of linked-lists.

------
ramchip
500friends, 42floors, 37signals... it's like Yahoo handlenames of the past,
but for companies.

~~~
coldcode
It's Count von Count's favorite kind of company.

------
kenjackson
This posting is so bad and offensive, I hold it against the leadership team of
this company. I certainly would think less of someone if someone else
mentioned, "Oh they were on the leadership team at 500friends".

~~~
justinY
500friends founder/CEO here. Look at my team - 500friends.com/team. Most
people are who you may consider to be "old." And we wouldn't be where we're at
without them. We do not discriminate against age.

What we meant is that we're looking for someone who has coded in the past
decade. Someone that has been managing 1,000 people at Oracle may not be the
right fit for a company of our stage. Make sense?

~~~
kenjackson
Hi Justin. It makes sense, but why didn't you say something more like that to
begin with? Something like "Active development skills are part of the hiring
criteria". You already mention doing Ruby development -- someone who hasn't
coded in a decade, probably doesn't have much Ruby experience.

It just seems odd that of all the possible ways to ask for what you describe
above, you choose arguably the most offensive and least effective way to do
so. And I think as a marketing company, you should know better. The message
matters -- not just the intent.

Seriously, think about a better way to phrase the requirement. There are
several preferable ways to phrase the question (not just from a legal
perspective, but even in terms of simply capturing the pool of candidates you
desire).

~~~
justinY
You do have a point sir.

------
justinY
The reason for this is that if you haven't been coding (just managing) for 12+
years...you probably are not "hands-on" enough for a company of our stage.

We have gotten a lot of very smart but "big company" people who had applied
for this position.

Sorry for the confusion however, most of our team is actually MUCH holder than
the typical start-up: 500friends.com/team. We may be a lot of things but are
definitely not ageist.

~~~
el_fuser
Before you edit much further:

 _We want someone who has less than 12 years of MANAGEMENT EXPERIENCE. The
reason is that if you haven 't been coding for 12+ years...you probably are
not "hands-on" enough_

This arbitrary cutoff makes absolutely no sense. I'd like to see your
quantification of skill drop off per year of management.

If what you are wanting is a hands-on technical manager, then you need to say
so.

And it shouldn't matter if the person has been hands on for 5 years or 20.

But I feel I'm being a little too generous regarding your motives here.

~~~
justinY
this has caused so many misinterpretations that I have edited it out of the
post completely...

But essentially, the ideal candidate was someone who was CODING 5-12 years
ago...

~~~
alternize
you made the job ad look pretty bad now to people reading it with out knowning
the first version...

    
    
       Note:
       Any notion that 500friends is ageist is a complete fabrication.  This can be validated by looking at our team (link). 
    

really? this is how you chose to start your job ad now? that sounds so
desperate, i'd never apply - not saying that i would have before, sorry :)

------
mhewett
I had an interview like this at Willow Garage about 5 years ago. The
interviewer said he would call at 8:30am. He called at 8:54 and sounded like
he'd had about 2 hours of sleep. Then he said he had a 9:00 meeting and would
call me back at 12:30pm. He called about 12:55 and proceeded with a lackluster
interview during which he confused knowledge representation with graphics
programming. Perversely, the interview made me want to join Willow just to see
the train wreck in progress. (In their defense they have produced some good
robotics platforms since then.)

------
sytelus
Not sure why "best of the best" would be so inclined to join a company that
has mission to help _marketers_ (primarily retailers) increase their _customer
lifetime value_.

------
melbourne_mat
This must be the ageism that everyone's been talking about. The whole team is
probably under 30. The kids will never learn!

------
tjbiddle
The only reasoning I can come up with that could possibly support this is
maybe they have the idea in mind that those with more than 12 years experience
would be less able to adapt to newer ways of thinking?

~~~
Jailbird
That counts as ageist for me.

~~~
JshWright
It likely does for the law as well.

------
brown9-2
Somewhere out there is a great 30 year old who started working at 18 that this
dumb company is missing out on.

~~~
wheaties
I work with a few of them actually. I loved college but these guys were
cutting their teeth on tech when I was cutting mine on beer pong. All of them
are too smart to ever think about a job description like that.

------
bjpcjp
Speaking on behalf of a LOT of people - F 500friends and the under-30 horse
they rode in on.

~~~
justinY
Brian,

In our original job post, we had specified that the ideal candidate would,
"not have more than 12 years of MANAGEMENT experience." We UNDERSTAND that
this could be misunderstood to indicate that we do not value experienced
people. As you can see from the seniority in our team however, this is far
from the truth. The intent here was to indicate that we are looking for a
"hands-on" VP of Engineering. Someone who has coded in the last decade and can
solve issues themselves (rather than asking their engineering manager to then
delegate it to a developer :).

Don't take my word for it, check out the people who work at my company -
500friends.com/team. 50%+ are 30+, and 25%+ are 38+

~~~
bjpcjp
_Update_

Justin, thanks for the private reply as well. Props for the consistent and
genuine efforts at damage control.

------
NelsonMinar
shhh, you're not supposed to say the "no old people" part out loud.

------
far33d
Crap. I have 11 years experience doing some pretty awesome shit. I guess this
is the last year I can get a legit job in a startup.

~~~
yen223
Just tell them you have 1 year experience 11 times.

------
zpk
Hey right over here everyone!!! This is called ageism.

If you write code and you are over 35, you are toast. Yes even you the "above
average coder"...done and done.

Now wait till that immigration bill passes, make 150k? GOOD ___ing BYE.

~~~
krapp
_If you write code and you are over 35, you are toast._

In SV, maybe. Hopefully not so much elsewhere or I'm gonna have a hard time
paying off my student loans...

~~~
zpk
I hate the fact you have to say that...it pisses me off to hear this. I was
lucky I had minimal loans, and school was 1/2 the cost. If I can give a word
of advice, spend less on car #1 and attack that loan, pay it off. Get to 0
debt.

~~~
krapp
Yeah, what can I say? Times are strange, and fatalism leads one to take risks.

~~~
zpk
I hear ya...more and more, I think our industry needs to unionize.

------
hardwaresofton
What if we gave them the benefit of the doubt, and they were posting "no more
than 12 years" because they want someone who's seen what happens but not
someone who is steeped in it? Someone who is familiar with the problems but
hasn't dealt with it so long that they are still naively excited about trying
to change it?

For example, if x guy has been doing TPS reports for 12 years,maybe they are
figuring that he has already just adjusted to a gotta-do-my-TPS-reports
mindset?

just giving some benefit of the doubt

~~~
justinY
Thank you sir. my response here -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6043188](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6043188)

Justin (500friends founder/CEO)

------
andrewcooke
it seems to have been removed (the 12 years part) btw.

i saw it earlier. perhaps it was a joke - agile manifesto was published 12
years ago? (an argument for this is that 12 years is a strange number to use
otherwise).

[edit] and now there's a broken link on the front page saying that 26% of
their team is older than 38. i hate to say it but (1) i told you so (2) do
people lose their sense of humour with age? (3) i am 46 myself...

------
michaelochurch
It actually makes sense. It's not about age. Middle management has an
expiration date. If you've been a middle manager for 15 years, that's bad bad
bad. (Being an IC for 15 years is respectable; but once you move into
management, you should make director in 5 years and VP in no less than 10.)

Programming has an ageism problem largely because it's run by career managers
(who think all of us want to be them-- and we don't); engineers themselves
aren't ageist. Management is where the ageism comes from and it's even worse
in their world. It's not that they care about _age_ so much as they want to
avoid hiring terminal middle managers, and I can't blame them for the latter.
This fact has absolutely nothing to do with age, but terminal middle managers
are toxic.

~~~
demachina
You can be fairly confident there some startups out there founding by 20
somethings, populated by 20 somethings, who think having someone over 30, or
certainly over 40, on their team or even in their office would be akin to the
plague. They would probably place them in the same camp as their parents.

I totally understand why coders like Agile, hey I like it because hacking code
is the fun part :) Its also kind of a good fit for the app store era, where
you throw something out there and see if its sticks before you actually
develop most of it. Not entirely sure its actually a good way to develop
nontrivial software.

~~~
justinY
Hello sir. 500friends founder/CEO here.

It's not that people with 12+ years of experience are not as good. We were
trying to screen out candidates (many of them who are smart) but have been
"managers" for so long that they can't get their hands dirty and solve issues
themselves (something you have to do at a very small team).

Don't take my word for it, 26% of people on our team are older than 38. If
you're bored, check out their bios at 500friends.com/team

Admittedly however, this was not clear in our post, and it has since been
edited.

Thanks!!

------
abhishekg
Could also just be a publicity stunt

