
How One of the Deadliest Hajj Accidents Unfolded - mrb
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/09/06/world/middleeast/2015-hajj-stampede.html
======
jawns
Even after reading the piece, I'm still struggling to understand the mechanics
of it all.

Under normal conditions, when people walking in front of you stop, you stop
also so you don't bump into them. Makes sense, right?

So you would think that as long as everybody obeys that simple rule of
movement, this should never happen.

But having been caught in a much less serious "crush" once, I know it's not
that simple.

In my case, I was at a similar event -- religious in nature, lots of people
from all around the world, and mostly traveling in groups -- and although
everybody was polite and non-aggressive, as groups traveled through the
crowds, nobody wanted to be separated from their groups, and that caused major
issues.

For instance, a lot of groups traveled while holding hands in an effort to
remain together. But imagine how much more difficult it is for a bunch of
worm-like people chains to travel through a crowd than it is for discrete
individuals to do so.

The surge I was caught in was little more than a momentary push forward, but
it was very scary to lose control over my ability to move freely.

I would hope that with most people having cell phones nowadays, which gives
them the ability to more easily regroup after separation, it should be a
priority in cases like this to urge people to not form chains and to devalue
staying with their group if it affects the flow of traffic.

~~~
visakanv
I once saw a reddit comment that explained it really, really well:
[https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3pcvfb/saudi_arab...](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3pcvfb/saudi_arabia_hajj_disaster_death_toll_at_least/cw5vxtm?context=3)

~~~
Analemma_
There's also a good New Yorker article that made a lot of the same points, but
in the form of a longform article, if you prefer that:
[http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/07/crush-
point](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/07/crush-point). The bottom
line is that past a certain "person density", crowds are actually governed by
a lot of the same laws as fluid dynamics. When you introduce a "wall" in front
of the flow, the people at the back don't even know it because they're too far
away to notice. They can't know to "stop" any more than water at the back of a
pipe can suddenly stop if the water ahead of it encounters an obstacle.

~~~
cloudjacker
60% water, checks out

------
h4nkoslo
The Saudi royal family derives significant prestige from being seen as
successfully managing the Hajj. However, they're not particularly competent at
anything approaching governance or management, since being competent isn't a
good way to get prestige, money, power, etc (being related to the right
person, or possibly being extremely holy, is). So, you get continual fuckups,
and continual coverups. Their debacle in Yemen proceeds under a similar
pattern, as do their attempts to "modernize" their economy, and so on.

Perhaps no regime, other than maybe North Korea, has a more negative accrued
karmic balance. And honestly, North Korea does less to screw up the rest of
the world than the Saudis.

~~~
dmix
The Saudi government blamed Africans for the stampede even though it was
mostly Iranians and South Asians who died. They're just making this tragedy
worse in so many ways. The incompetence is apparent.

------
NelsonMinar
Lest anyone think this is a Hajj-only phenomenon, Wikipedia has a nicely
sourced List of Human Crushes.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_crushes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_crushes)

~~~
ozim
Hajj is quite regular on the list every 4 years or something around it.

------
tantalor
> caused by two large groups of pilgrims converging onto Street 204

Sounds like a traffic management problem. Article doesn't mention any steps
the organizers are making to fix it. Perhaps controls at intersections?

~~~
exmuslim
>Article doesn't mention any steps the organizers are making to fix it

That's because they are making none. The "steps" (rituals) of Hajj have been
the same for over 1400 years, there's no reason for such accidents to happen
when you:

Know where people are headed.

When people are headed there.

The number of those people.

And most importantly UNLIMITED fucking ressources!

Knowing that many people lost their lives because incompetent idiots can't
manage shit infuriates me and especially when a royal Saudi clerk (can't find
an English source) says that the Sub-Saharan victims were better off dying in
the "holy lands" than in their messy countries.

I am so glad I've renounced my religion, people often poke fun at the
materialism of christianity by mentioning Indulgence and not realize Hajj is
the most exploitive religious act anyone can engage in.

In essence, fuck the Saudi Royal Family.

~~~
sctb
This comment contains both informative content and uncivil insults that the
guidelines ask us not to make. Please give us the former without the latter.
It's even more important around controversial topics that we comment civilly
and reflectively.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
exmuslim
I apologize.

I agree.

------
weisser
Woody Guthrie wrote a song about a true story - 1913 Massacre - a devasting
and haunting song.

The song is based around the Italian Hall Disaster - a tragedy that occurred
on December 24, 1913, in Calumet, Michigan. 73 men, women, and children,
mostly striking mine workers and their families, were crushed to death in a
stampede when someone falsely shouted "fire" at a crowded Christmas party.

I suggest reading the entire lyrics...
[http://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/Nineteen_Thirteen_Massacr...](http://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/Nineteen_Thirteen_Massacre.htm)

...or listening to the song...
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz7oguguIZE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz7oguguIZE)

...but here's the second half which describes the scenario:

The copper boss' thugs stuck their heads in the door, One of them yelled and
he screamed, "there's a fire," A lady she hollered, "there's no such a thing.
Keep on with your party, there's no such thing."

A few people rushed and it was only a few, "It's just the thugs and the scabs
fooling you," A man grabbed his daughter and carried her down, But the thugs
held the door and he could not get out.

And then others followed, a hundred or more, But most everybody remained on
the floor, The gun thugs they laughed at their murderous joke, While the
children were smothered on the stairs by the door.

Such a terrible sight I never did see, We carried our children back up to
their tree, The scabs outside still laughed at their spree, And the children
that died there were seventy-three.

The piano played a slow funeral tune, And the town was lit up by a cold
Christmas moon, The parents they cried and the miners they moaned, "See what
your greed for money has done."

------
kentosi
On a side note, why are areas separated based on countries of origin? If I
were a muslim on the Hajj I'd be enthralled to be around people of all
cultures and countries around me.

~~~
erklik
Its easier in terms of organisation and more easier to deal with groups of
people who speak the same language rather than a hodgepodge. Many in these
groups are illiterate and have never written or read in their lives, it can be
quite difficult to manage people when one doesn't even speak their language.

------
CodeSheikh
"Tents in Mina are reserved through the hajj ministry, which organizes
pilgrims according to where they come from."

Seriously is this because of discrimination or due to some sort of
"optimization" that is not explained in the article. Vendors speaking same
language kinda thing perhaps.

Cant they make people do their Hajj in waves?

~~~
erklik
Mostly optimization because its easier to deal with people who all speak the
same language rather than having a hodgepodge of languages and cultures. One
has to try and imagine the amount of different kind of people these are, its
quite over-whelming.

Regarding doing it in waves. Its technically not possible because its a
certain time of the year that one can do Hajj, and its not a whole year thing
otherwise it wouldn't be such a issue. Its a five day period starting on a
specific date determined by the Islamic Calendar which is based on the Lunar
Cycle.

So, For Example, the Hajj start this year on the 12th of this month and
continues for a five day period in which millions of people will flock to the
country. Last year it was 2,000,000 people in total.

At the end of day, it is possible to manage large crowds such as this but
Saudi's are basically not putting in the effort. The amount of resources they
have, don't justify this being this bad. Hell, Most other Islamic countries
also often criticize Saudi's specifically on this issue. I think Iran has
called them murderers or something for last years accident.

