
Ask HN: Where are other tech scenes outside Bay Area - xfour
I feel like I’ve missed the boat when it comes to home ownership here in the Bay Area.  Furthermore, my wife wants stability in home ownership for our nascent family, and renting is hardly affordable, not to mention lacking in the potential for growth in equity.<p>The usual option of Austin doesn’t excite me.<p>Where else are people going that has a Tech scene?<p>Currently, I’m working as a Director of Engineering, making 300k+, but it doesn’t seem to matter; all I can afford is either under a freeway or under power lines, it seems.  I don’t want to overextend across 30 years.<p>Any suggestions?  I’d be happier, I think, somewhere else, with a lower paying job, incredibly, but I’m having a hard time figuring out somewhere with a good mix of weather, jobs, properties, schools.
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atlasunshrugged
I'm a former Bay Area startupper (Marketing/Sales early stage and a bit of
product, not an engineer) and did a stint in Berlin and am currently in
Tallinn (Estonia). I think for quality of life Berlin can't be beat, it's a
big city but you can choose the right neighborhood for a reasonable price and
get any sort of vibe you want from small town to big city hipster (okay maybe
there are a few neighborhoods with the latter vibe).

But frankly I doubt you're going to be able to secure a gig at that pay,
you'll have to decide if general quality of life is worth the monetary
tradeoff. The tech scene itself is much more nascent in Berlin (and way
underfunded) but you may be able to parlay your 'Silicon Valley' roots into a
sweet senior gig in an innovation lab or as a senior engineer at a bigger
corporate that's trying to compete with newcomers which is a big theme in
German corporates right now

~~~
imAsking9836
Always wanted to work in Berlin. How did you manage the language barrier? I
know that most gigs use English as the first language but how about the daily
life like doing groceries or calling the phone company for a bad bill?

~~~
minionslave
You manage the barrier by learning the language. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but
I've noticed something with English Speaking folks, they don't want to learn
another language. They want people to speak English to them.

~~~
hfdgiutdryg
It's going to be rough working in English all day, then trying to learn German
in the evening, especially if most people interested in talking to you are
those who want to practice their English.

It's tough to find people willing to talk with an adult like they're a
toddler.

So, I don't think the question is as flippant as you made it out to be.
Someone might have some real advice about how to manage the juggling act of
learning a new language and culture as a working adult.

~~~
expertentipp
That's the trap of working in industry lingua franca of which is your mother
tongue. Otherwise public libraries in Germany are very well equipped and have
wide selection of audio content - language curses, audiobooks, some might find
it more helpful than just grammar handbooks.

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dpods
Have you worked with a real estate agent and lender to see what properties you
could afford? You might be surprised with what you can afford.

I recently moved from SF to San Diego about a year ago and just bought a
house. It’s not that we couldn’t afford a house in the Bay Area. Just that in
SD we could afford a house in a neighborhood we’d actually want to live in.

It’s a different market down here. Lots of biotech and defense contractors.
Primarily Java, C++, C# but you can find some ruby and php positions. I
haven’t seen any python and very little node.js positions but they are out
there. Startup scene is obviously much smaller but if you look hard enough you
can find some great companies.

~~~
xfour
Pretty familiar with San Diego, it’s the nicer part of Southern California
from my perspective.

My Cousin just opened a Brewery called the Kensington which I believe is the
name of the neighborhood as well.

What neighborhood did you land in?

What’s the percentage difference in Salary you’d expect? Say Mid Level
Developer in SF is ~150-200k at this point would it be 100k median or so?

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wprapido
Well, nowhere you could get the SV rates. Yet, nowhere you'd be struggling on
a quarter a million.

There is tech beyond SV. My current company is distributed between a second
tier city in Croatia and a semi-rural town in NZ. We are in the end-of-life
tech, and are taking the Advisor track at Startup School.

Times when you had no tech other than ol' skool corporate IT beyond SV,
London, and a few other spots are gone. My current city, Osijek, a second tier
city has some amazing tech that is quite prominent globally. Farmeron (AgTech)
was founded here and later acquired, [https://www.netocratic.com/farmeron-
closes-gideon-brother-11...](https://www.netocratic.com/farmeron-closes-
gideon-brother-111385) . Infobip (telco infrastructure software) was founded
in a semi rural town in Istria region in Croatia.

Don't overlook Eastern Europe. Estonia, Czech, Romania, Poland got amazing
tech scenes, and the life is good.

If you work remotely, options are even more abundant.

Don't mind that SV is actually quite vulnerable and gets hit badly by
recessions, bursts, etc.

As of the US. New Mexico, Colorado, Washington, are all quite livable.

~~~
taysic
Does your company employ any US citizens in Croatia? I understand that the
taxes would not be able to be deducted from one's US taxes - so basically one
would pay double taxes.

~~~
wprapido
We do hire some freelancers / contractors / advisors. So far they are in
Croatia, Serbia, UK, Malta, France, Cyprus, Israel.

Not sure on taxation for the US citizens, sorry.

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mpolichette
SLC, Utah is pretty great, I almost don’t want to mention it because the tech
jobs are great and the state provides a lot to do.. its like a hidden gem no
one thinks about because they consider it Mormon land...

There are a lot of companies opening offices out here though!

~~~
xfour
Sounds pretty interesting. On a more micro (neighborhood level) of suburb
level what areas are worth checking out.

On the job front, what companies do you think are innovative or majors opening
branches are worth looking at?

~~~
nkingsy
We moved from the bay to SLC in November to be closer to my wife's parents
(second kid) and own a nice home in a nice neighborhood (Cottonwood Heights,
highly recommended).

That part is spectacular. We have our choice of clean, nicely appointed parks
full of kids 3 minutes walk in either direction, 2 minute drive to get into
the canyons, and I have a big garden.

The options for jobs and salaries are nothing like the bay. Software engineers
rarely make over 120k here. Plenty of techish companies scattered all around
the valley and Park City, but not many I was excited about. I took a job in
Kimball Junction (PC), commuting 26 minutes. Here that qualifies as a big
commute.

Until recently, SLC was mostly LDS and mountain lovers, and the work culture
reflects both groups' regard for to their non-work life. The company I joined
is based in SV and almost all of the people in the office are transplants. I
think that's because the company's work/life balance expectations are not in
line with what most people want around here.

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strayamaaate
I did a year in Berlin and tend to agree with Peter Thiels assessment - “I
always thought Berlin would be a great place for innovation, but now I think
it’s a place people in their 20s move to when they want to retire”

Personally I had a lot of good times in Berlin, but it didn't feel like it had
the drive of the valley.

Recently moved to Toronto, and loving it here so far. Great scene, smart &
friendly people and lots of growth.

Not trying to badmouth Berlin, it's a super cool city. Just didn't hit the
mark for me.

[https://business.financialpost.com/technology/torontos-
tech-...](https://business.financialpost.com/technology/torontos-tech-scene-
gets-hotter-beating-san-francisco-bay-area-in-new-jobs-and-new-york-in-talent)

~~~
krn
To put it simply, in a "work and life balance" Berlin is inevitably more about
life than about work. And if your personal growth depends on the people you
are surrounded by, it might not always be the best place to live in.

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meritt
Portland has a thriving tech scene with 4,782 open jobs [1] at the moment.
Home prices are about a third of the median in SF/SV.

[1] [http://portlandtech.org/](http://portlandtech.org/)

~~~
xfour
Portland is definitely somewhere I’ve been thinking. Schools seem to be an
issue in a lot of neighborhoods except Lake Oswego. Anywhere closer to the
city know for good schools?

Also what’s your favorite companies of those 4K openings I should look into?

~~~
adventured
A couple of years ago I seriously looked at the Camas / Vancouver area, just
across the line from Portland. No income tax in Washington of course (if you
work in Portland that obviously changes the equation, as opposed to remoting).
Use Portland for the nearby metro benefits, and housing prices in the region
are drastically better than Seattle. I can't speak to the schools in the area
however.

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fakeElonMusk
We left the Bay Area two years ago and went to Prague. I miss Philz and Blue
Bottle but we are pretty happy here. Similar scene as Berlin - not quite as
nice but cheap with lots of green space everywhere. If your wife has an EU
passport you should be fine anywhere in Europe. I'm freelancing for clients in
the Bay Area and east coast (software eng) so I'm lucky to have best of both
worlds.

I would imagine you have a good network of people in tech so you could
probably transition to freelance work and live anywhere. Email me if you want
to discuss. Co-work spaces here are anywhere from $100 - $500/mo. Internet is
so blazing fast it's ridiculous - 300mbs on ethernet in our apartment. What we
had in SF was pathetic.

Condo prices in central Prague are about $4,500usd/m2 - so 500k usd will get
you a nice 2 bedroom in a really nice neighborhood. For the same money you can
move 20 minutes by train outside the center and get a small house with a yard.

If you are leaning towards Europe the best tech scenes IMO are in Berlin,
Amsterdam and Barcelona. Barcelona has really been picking up in the last few
years and is probably the cheapest.

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dmode
I make similar salary and have a nice 3000sqft house that I paid $1mn for in
the Bay Area. Areas where you can still buy SFH just around a million include
Oakland Hills, Orinda, Walnut Creek, Union City, Dublin, Hayward parts of San
Jose. Try to find a new construction so that you don't have to deal with
competition

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jypepin
If you are relocating to Europe, Amsterdam is great.

The economy is good, the tech scene is already good and booming. A lot of
local startups, bigger and bigger local companies and the typical
international tech startups are here.

Salary are lower but the cost of life too and you'll live way better here.
Home prices, groceries, restaurants/bars and travels are mostly cheaper. I'd
say I spend almost half in Amsterdam than what I was spending in SF, for a
pretty similar life style. This sounds true to most of my friends who did the
same move.

Everyone speaks english, so you won't have to rush to learn Dutch. There are
great english-speaking private schools that you'll be able to afford, or free
Dutch schools, to which your kids will adapt very quick if they are still
young.

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kosei
I've heard good things about Dublin. Anyone here on HN able to speak from
direct experience?

Personally live in Seattle and love it, but I got in before the major boom and
it is not nearly as affordable as 5-10 years ago. Still think it is a major
upgrade to SF, though.

~~~
fyfy18
Compared to other European capitals, when I was there a few years ago, the
tech scene in Dublin was relatively small. I think it's grown a bit now, but
at the same time I've heard rental prices have gone up quite substantially.

Also worth mentioning that whatever happens with Brexit will have an affect on
Ireland too (probably in a bad way), due to the shared border with the UK.

~~~
neskimoo
The tech scene in Dublin has definitely expanded in the last few years but the
renting market is very bad. You would be looking at paying prices similar to
London houseshares for less pay. That being said the housing market looks to
be at it's peak here so it's likely to drop in the next couple of years again.

Ireland will likely take some form of impact from Brexit, especially if
tariffs are brought in on trade of goods with the UK. I would still think that
the tech scene shouldn't be too impacted and may see more growth if
multinational comapanies move after Brexit.

~~~
expertentipp
> That being said the housing market looks to be at it's peak here so it's
> likely to drop in the next couple of years again.

The property market of renting and buying is in an expensive deadlock
(relatively to local earnings) everywhere from Lisbon to Krakow, from
Reykjavik to Barcelona. I wouldn't expect it to just "drop" by itself anywhere
as too many significant entities are betting on it.

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locust101
Is being part of tech scene a requirement? Chicago is pretty nice, affordable
and cosmopolitan.

~~~
xfour
Tech Scene for me personally provides a type of insurance. Here in the Bay
Area you just have 1000s of companies bit and small contributing to this
insane ecosystem that feels so that you could get a new job if necessary
relatively easily.

In other cities it seems like you have a single or a few employers and if it
didn’t work out with them you’d need to uproot your life and move areas again.
Having an ecosystem like that allows a bit more options.

That being said I don’t imagine Chicago to be like that, what tech companies
do you like in that area? As that’s what I’m qualified to do.

~~~
wbl
You don't need to be at a tech company to work as a programmer.

~~~
xfour
True, never really thought about that software tech really is in every
industry. Do you do that and is it fulfilling?

~~~
scarface74
My definition of fulfilling is getting a check large enough to live a
comfortable life in the burbs where I get to come home at a reasonable time.

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scyber
I think the biggest question is how long do you want to commute? If you are
willing to do the 70-90m daily commute then their are plenty of areas on
central nj and pa that are commutable to NYC.

and 300k a year will buy you a large homestead in those areas.

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lwhalen
Seattle? You can also land a job working remotely, and live whereever you
please.

~~~
xfour
I hear Seattle has gotten just as expensive as SF not true?

Remote is interesting for sure. The rise of companies like Buffer and I
believe the Wordpress company is 100% remote.

Definitely solves half my issue also looking for somewhere actually nice to
live.

~~~
gcampos
Seattle is expensive, but not near as much as SF.

I actually think here is one of the best places to leave. You can find SV
level paychecks, no income tax, and housing for half of the price!

~~~
edoceo
Also, 45 minutes out of the city core (light traffic) gets real affordable
compared to in-city.

If you can bus or commute off-hours it can work.

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GiorgioG
RTP (Research Triangle Park, Raleigh/Durham NC)

edit: (in the original post I only posted the 'RTP' acronym.)

~~~
anonytrary
I was gonna say Raleigh, NC. After looking up what RTP refers to, I am
pleasantly surprised to see this as the first answer!

~~~
xfour
Yea I googled it, Research Park Triangle it seems. It seemed really
interesting. Housing seemed to be pretty reasonable by California standards.

What neighborhoods are worth checking out and what companies are interesting.

Saw a lot of NetApp and IBM. Nothing wrong with those just seems like not a
lot of companies just a few of ones from first glance.

~~~
GiorgioG
Red Hat, Citrix, Cisco, Epic (Fortnite), SAS, Microsoft, Glaxo-Smith-Kline, a
bunch of smaller startups/companies, etc.

I moved down here 5 years ago (from Buffalo, NY) but I work remotely for a
non-local company.

As far as neighborhoods good, we're happy in Holly Springs, Apex is north of
us, and Fuquay-Varina is just to the south. Cary is by far the most desirable
area due to it's proximity to RTP. We decided we wanted more house/backyard
than we could afford in Cary and so we settled in Holly Springs. If I had to
work in RTP I'd hop on the 540 (toll road) and be there in 30 minutes.

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throwaway_cad
Look into Ottawa.

Ottawa is a great place to raise a family, coffee (specifically little
victories, happy goat, and black squirrel) and food culture is fantastic,
great city for outdoor activities such as biking, rowing, hiking, etc..., very
dog friendly city, 2 hours away from Montreal, 4.5 from Toronto.

Not sure about tech salaries but I'm sure with your experience you can
negotiate something similar.

If you're looking for a Bay Area vibe I'd say the glebe is as close as you can
get.

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ben_w
Have you considered getting a private pilot license? That should cost around a
month of your salary, and open up a much longer commute without adding time…
at least, that’s the impression I’ve had when considering the Bay Area.

~~~
lylecubed
Do you know anybody who commutes by plane? It's an interesting notion, but
something tells me it's too expensive of a commute, even for Bay Area
salaries.

~~~
ben_w
I occasionally read about people doing it, and a Bay Area air taxi startup
kept trying to sign me up for a free trial… but no, no personal experiences of
people I know.

I wouldn’t consider it for someone earning less than about $180k/year, just
because of how much licensing and vehicles cost, but the comment I was
responding to said >$300k.

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plessthanpt05
I've seen Los Angeles being called 'silicon beach' (around Venice and Santa
Monica) and I've read that the Midwest (Omaha I think) is being referred to as
'silicon prairie'.

~~~
xfour
I’ve heard people complaining that LA is just as bad as the Bay now housing
costs vs Salaries.

Anyone live in the Midwest and can chime in on their experiences?

~~~
jypepin
My sample size is very small, but everyone I know who moved from SF to LA for
tech jobs get pretty much the same salary and housing is still cheaper, even
for places right in Venice/Santa Monica.

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corv
The idea that home ownership guarantees growth is a fallacy. In most cities
prices only keep up with inflation.

Ergo you are financially better off renting, and investing the money you would
have spent on a house.

~~~
adrianN
Only if the returns of your investments minus the rent still beat inflation.

~~~
corv
Unless you've timed your real estate purchase and sale very well and happen to
live in an exceptional city the average return of the public markets is most
likely to exceed.

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vyrotek
Lot of good stuff happening in Scottsdale and Tempe Arizona. Cost of living is
fantastic.

Lehi, Utah as others have mentioned is great too. I moved from there back to
AZ to escape the show though.

~~~
xfour
What show was so scary it chased you back to AZ? Book of Mormon?

J/K assuming you meant snow.

Jokes aside what companies do you like in the area?

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throwaway2016a
Cost of living is not much better but I'm personally partial to Boston and you
can get houses in the surrounding bedroom communities for not too bad. If you
don't mind going North of Boston, southern New Hampshire has a lot to offer
but the tech scene is still pretty small.

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noetic_techy
Miami, Tampa, Orlando. Cost of living is low in Florida. Although you wont
make as much as SV, you will live very well. Plenty of family friendly picture
perfect communities for young professionals.

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botten
Stockholm, Sweden. Good tech scene, bad housing, but very family friendly
(heavily subsidized kindergarten, free schools, paid parental leave, etc.).

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supratims
I came to London 8 year back and I love the tech scene here.

Thought rents/commute etc could be steep, one can expect decent salary as
well.

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ojhughes
London but it’s a dirty miserable existence!

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gamechangr
Denver, Colorado.

~~~
cimmanom
Last I looked at Denver-Boulder (maybe 10 years ago), the software jobs there
were almost exclusively on the Microsoft stack. Has that changed?

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client4
Montana. We have SoFi, Oracle, Submittable, OnX Maps, etc.

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bradknowles
With respect, Austin is full. We don’t need any more ex-Californites moving
here and driving up real estate prices even further. Thanks!

You’re welcome to visit anytime you like, however.

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adrianN
Come to Berlin

~~~
xfour
Had a friend that recently washed out of SoundCloud and returned to the U.S. I
spent some time there and went to the disrupt Europe when it was in Berlin. I
might be able to swing it long term as my wife has an Italian passport but
would be a longer process with that.

Seemed like when I was there it was something about a rocket and cloning US
tech and SoundCloud were the two big games in town.

Has there gotten to be a more critical mass of companies there recently?

~~~
adrianN
Amazon is here, Twitch is here, Google is in the process of opening an office
here. Microsoft has an office too, but I don't know whether it's engineering
or not. Pivotal Labs has an office here. There is also Siemens who is
desperately looking to adapt to the "digital transformation". There is a
pretty healthy startup scene of smaller companies, check e.g.
[https://www.startupnight.net/startups](https://www.startupnight.net/startups)
or [https://www.adlershof.de/en/companies-
institutes/directory/](https://www.adlershof.de/en/companies-
institutes/directory/). There are also a number of smaller companies that
aren't startups.

------
spotmessage1
Bay Area is still first, but these are not far behind:

1\. Oxford-Cambridge-London in the UK

2\. Shenzhen-Guangzhou-Hong Kong in China

3\. Israel

~~~
wprapido
Housing in London is almost as bad as in SV. Don't mind the gloomy Brexit
prospects.

Tel Aviv is awesome. Still housing is an issue. Getting a residence permit
unless you are Jewish or marry is way harder than in many other developed
countries. Other than that, a great option.

