

Tell HN: I didn't get a job due to a failed startup on my resume - zubar

My startup went down the pan due to lack of money (what's new?) I was always told the expereince you get from a failed startup is a good thing. Well, a certain large software company doesn't seem to think so. Apparently, "as an entrepeneur you are obviously a free spirit, not the kind of person that settles well in a normal job, we would never hire people with a failed startup on their resume".<p>Thanks HN. You lied to me about the true cost of a failed startup.
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philwelch
Let me get this straight--you're bitter because you didn't get hired by a
company that evidently doesn't even want you to have any ambition or
initiative of your own? I would be relieved if I was in your position.

~~~
sharkbrainguy

      I would be relieved if I was in your position.
    

I don't think you know enough of his situation to say that. It might not be
the best place in the world to work but I imagine after your startup runs out
of money, you just want a paycheck.

~~~
cstejerean
And why would a company want to hire someone that 'just wants a paycheck'?

~~~
extension
Possibly because that's all they have to offer.

~~~
cstejerean
Allow me to elaborate:

A lot of companies have a policy of not hiring people that are significantly
overqualified for a position. The reason for this is that those people are
almost guaranteed to be unhappy and perform poorly. That means that if your
company just needs some code monkeys to crank out code to spec then you need
to hire people that are perfectly happy doing that because it matches their
skill level and ambitions.

Someone with enough initiative to start their own company is not likely to do
well in that kind of an environment, and the fact that they look at it solely
as crap they need to tolerate in exchange for a paycheck doesn't help.

~~~
bkudria
Fair enough - but then tell the candidate that: "Sorry, you're overqualified,
you can find a better position, and be happier. We just need a code monkey for
now". None of the BS about "free spirits" and "normal jobs" - I mean, come on.

~~~
wlievens
Because rejections are always honest?

~~~
bkudria
No - but they should be. Or, were you about to make a case for dishonesty?

------
vaksel
I'm going to guess that it was due to how you behaved during your interview.
If you are going for a corporate job, you need to pretty much crap all over
your startup experience. You need to talk about how it just wasn't for you,
and that you have no plans to ever do it again.

If you talk about how cool it was, and how you plan to do it again, they won't
want to hire you, thinking you are just there for a few months until you go
back to doing startups

~~~
nostrademons
When I interviewed, I said my startup was basically a great experience, I
absolutely hoped to give it a go again in the future, but right now all ideas
I had led through Google. That seemed to work for them, and it was basically
the truth. No need to lie or misrepresent.

You definitely don't want to give the impression that you're just applying to
pick up some quick cash before trying your next startup. But there's a lot of
middle ground between that and "I never want to be an entrepreneur again, and
will happily be your corporate bitch forever."

~~~
ScottWhigham
That was your situation in one job interview. To repost: "Sampling size error"

It is dangerous to assume that "One size fits all" in this situation, for both
you and OP. A better answer might be to read the interviewer/company and make
the best decision at the time given all the info (on whether to "fudge" or not
about whether you'd do it again). It also, I suppose, depends on your
financial situation.

~~~
nostrademons
I've said that elsewhere on-thread. However, by definition each person only
has direct experience with a sample size of one, so the only way to get bigger
sample sizes is if people post their experiences. :-)

------
marketer
Unlikely. I doubt that's the real reason -- it's just the excuse the recruiter
told you.

You probably just had a bad interview. Either you're not completely qualified,
or they didn't feel you were a good fit for the team. Maybe they didn't like
some of your answers to the interview questions. Or, somebody else beat you
out for the position.

Using careful wording you can spin any negative experience into something
positive. I'd recommend doing that with your startup.

~~~
zubar
In my experience within the UK graduate market I find that recruiters for
larger companies usually give very frank and honest reasons for not hiring
you.

~~~
abstractbill
You're in the UK? Well, that's the problem I'm afraid. People in the UK are
_not_ generally very accepting of startup failure, and will often count it
against you.

I moved from the UK to San Francisco a few years ago, and everything is very
different. An attempted startup, whether successful or not, _is_ almost always
seen as a good thing here.

------
fallentimes
Sample size error.

~~~
webwright
+1 and to elaborate:

Seriously? With a sample size of _1_ , you are blaming hacker news for bad
advice rather than blaming the hiring manager for having a rare/bizarre
attitude?

~~~
ph0rque
Here's something to balance this story out: one of the reasons I got my
current job is because I founded a(n ultimately failed) startup.

~~~
vlad
Same here: I was hired as one of the youngest full-time employees at a Fortune
100 company. I did not have a degree, and on top of that, attended a community
college, but I was Student Body President there. I also co-founded a Student
Newspaper and Chess Club (both of which still exist years later.)

My previous experience was selling shareware for a few years, which helped me
demonstrate that I knew what I was doing, as well as making me comfortable
communicating with adults in their 40's when I applied for a position (when my
dad was laid off). I had only applied to a few companies and did not have
problems getting interviews. I also sent recruiters and managers, follow up
e-mails with code, screen shots, and links to websites and software I had
created, after each interview.

The other few young employees there had started as temps or in the training
pool. Although they had Bachelor's Degrees on top of that, they didn't have a
real job title for months after I did. What matters is that the managers who
hired me could see I had drive and did not rely on having a piece of paper.

In my first two months, I got an iPhone and told my manager I thought the
company should have an iPhone web application and then a native application
when the devkit came out. I also got them to sign up for the iPhone Enterprise
Beta. I taught the guy who hired me all about differences between phones and
technologies, how hard it was to program for each one, and different
applications that could be made. Multiple times he felt the idea had run dry,
and I told him that if we could just get statistics about this, we would be
good to go. So he partnered with his friend who did have such statistics and I
was out of the picture suddenly... But some of my mockups did make it to the
presentation shown in front of who-are-now the CIO and CTO of the company, as
well as the two Chief Operating Officers. Sure, it would have been nice (and
fair) for me to attend those meetings and get credit and a bonus, but it was a
good learning experience about the corporate world. Looking back, I probably
should have made my own presentations early on (using publicly available
information) and made sure everybody knew the whole story, because apparently
the manager who had told me he wanted to work on this with me, only cared
about his own name getting mentioned--so don't worry, maybe you're not missing
much from big corporate after all. :)

I am completing a B.S. in Computer Science and Mathematics right now, a
decision I made as school started in September because I felt I should get my
degree then move to California. I hope I will have the same swagger and hustle
as I did without a degree, instead of relying on it in any way. I am focusing
on theory as much as possible (Algorithms, AI, math courses), even though it
will hurt my GPA, because I can learn other stuff myself.

Instead of being bitter, think of how lucky you are. For me, losing the
freedom of working on my own software product in order to work at a Fortune
100 company, and now attending a research university for a four year degree
that causes frequent sleepless nights, feels like I'm on a "downward spiral".
In reality, that's better than 99% of what other individuals can accomplish at
our age (assuming you're in the mid-20's or younger), and that's just in the
United States alone. Your situation is very similar, and we should feel lucky.

~~~
nihilocrat
You get out of a degree as much as you put in. This should reinforce your
"swagger and hustle" rather than weaken it.

From an employment perspective, you are simply making HR people happy. The
technical interviewers don't see much value in a degree in practice, even if
they will tell you differently.

~~~
suhail
Sometimes school teaches you the things you wouldn't take the time to learn
normally but are so vital to your experience as a hacker. I value school in
that respect, sometimes you need a push to learn something to open up your
mind a bit.

Kudos to this guy, I agree with his path. He's not just making HR people
happy, he's truly learning regardless of what his GPA may become after it.

I do agree, you do only get as much out of the degree as you put in.

~~~
nihilocrat
I think your argument is valid, sometimes you get more out of learning
something when you're forced to learn the alternatives and edge cases that
don't matter in a learn-as-you-go approach.

However, take two job candidates:

One of them just has a CS degree, let's even say it was from a "prestigious"
university or whatever. No internships, no computer-related jobs, no open
source / hobby projects, nothing else except good grades and dubious academic
rewards.

The other has no college degree, but has spent 4 years working various junior
positions / contract jobs that pertain directly to the job in question,
mentioning several cases where they wrote/maintained software in a production
environment. To even the field, let's just say they don't have any open source
/ hobby projects or otherwise "outside" experience.

They are both asking for the same salary and are "equal" in terms of team fit
and other non-technical factors. Who would you hire? This is ultimately the
point I'm trying to make.

------
mzucker007
I doubt that the recruiter who told you "we would never hire people with a
failed startup on their resume" is actually speaking true company policy.

"Thanks HN. You lied to me about the true cost of a failed startup." Are you
kidding? Surely, you aren't ready to blame those trying to help you for one
bad encounter with a knucklehead recruiter with a bad attitude.

------
comatose_kid
They said this to you at an on-site interview? How did you make it that far if
they had that attitude?

About your last comment: take responsibility for your actions.

~~~
banned_man
_About your last comment: take responsibility for your actions._

The real question (which neither the OP nor I am qualified to answer) is
whether a startup opens more doors than it closes, not whether it closes one
particular door. Obviously, there are all kinds of people in the world with
all sorts of stupid biases; there's someone out there who will decide not to
hire you because you went to the same school as some intern he disliked.

------
nostrademons
Sorry it didn't work out for you. I'm one of the people who's been
cheerleading the "Even if you fail, it looks good on a resume" approach.

Whenever you listen to any advice, you need to view it through the filter of
Buchheit's Law: "Limited life experience + overgeneralization = advice". Lots
of people post about their experiences here, but nobody's experience will
completely fit with your own circumstances. So you've got to examine _why_ it
worked for them and determine if those same conditions apply to you. In my
case, I was applying for a job at Google in Silicon Valley, not a big company
in the UK. I had previous successful programming projects, though
unfortunately nothing lucrative. And I had sharp basic CS skills and did well
in the interview. I'm not sure how many of these apply to your own situation.

If they don't, you have two options:

1.) Make your situation look more like the people whose advice you've been
reading.

2.) Seek out advice from people closer to your own situation.

It's really valuable that you've posted your own experience for others to
learn from, but there's always a danger in generalizing too much.

------
tptacek
I've negged people for having a number of failed startups in their work
history, without any intervening stable roles. I've never negged anyone for a
single failed startup. So, be aware that a resume full of go-nowhere company
attempts may not serve your career well.

I took time off the lifestyle and worked at an established (but small)
software company for about 4 years after my last failure, and feel like I was
better off for that choice.

------
kcy
This is a self-absorbed inflammatory post from someone who is clearly going
through a difficult experience. I don't think he's a troll (though the account
was created 2 hours ago), but I also doubt there's anything you can say to him
in this thread to change his feelings.

------
geoffw8
All I keep thinking is "Blag it, surely?"

My thoughts:

\- I wouldn't sell it as a failed start-up, you can put an honest story around
anything

\- "I didn't like start-up life, I thought the grass was greener, and it sure
as hell isn't"

\- "Yea, I agree, the product didn't work out, but I learned a lot of
operational skills. Planning, hiring, firing etc."

\- "One thing it definitely taught me was it all comes down to numbers and
ROI."

etc etc etc

Disclaimer: My first job was with a start-up that I'm pretty sure is on its
why down the pan. But I sure as hell don't share the same concerns. I'd argue
that what I learned in a start-up has prepared me for _my_ life more than any
degree could.

------
bayareaguy
I doubt anyone lied to you zubar. At one former startup employer the founder
hired me in part because some years earlier I was a co-founder of an
unsuccessful company and at other established places I've been rejected for
reasons similar to the one given to you.

Anything you do in your career has the potential to open or close some doors.

My suggestion is to be prepared to tailor things like cover letters and
resumes appropriately for the position and be more selective in how you apply
so as to maximize your chances. Unless you're very very good or lucky you're
bound to have some kind of failure in your past. The important thing in this
sort of interview situation is to be able to convince people you've learned
the right lessons from the experience and are more valuable as a result.

------
eterno
Hiring is extremely random and for most part very hard to do fairly. Bet even
if someone like bill gates or the google founders applied to some of the
bigger companies - chances are they will get turned down from a few of them.

Though, I think there is almost zero correlation of landing a position and
having done a startup. Also, in real terms failed/successfull startups dont
really matter much because often there is a very fine line (often described as
luck) between failed and successfull startups. You might have learned a lot
more in a failed one than having lucked out in a succesfull one. (for eg. jobs
might have been considered a lesser success when apple mostly did the mac
compared to say the youtube guys. Even though we now know otherwise because of
the ipod, the fact is that it was plain market conditions that led to youtube
being a bigger hit than the Mac).

A friend of mine got turned down with one of the biggest private enterprise
software firms in the US. They hired the best of the lot - stanford, mit etc.
He went on to join a smaller firm, and then did a startup which is about to
run a million in revenues this year. The private software firm has since lost
its mojo and is laying off right left and center. The friend, who is now CEO,
is hiring right left and center. The very people who thought he was unfit to
join their 'ranks' would now be very happy to be on his payroll.

In any case the lesson is that treat a job as independent from doing a startup
- it takes a different set of skills to land one and its not fair, so just try
to find what is required to land a job and not assume it to mean anything more
than that.

------
zaidf
I had a similar reason cited by a company few years ago. My gut reaction was
that of "seriously?". Then I came home, thought of their decision, and
realized that indeed, I am not fit for the 9-5 do-as-we-say job I was applying
for. I got rid of my bitterness and learned something about myself in the
process!

------
yef
You are in the UK? Perhaps, after collecting some more feedback from other
companies, you should add your perspective to the prevailing wisdom here. It
sounds like the Silicon Valley software culture may be a bit more accepting of
startup experience than in the UK.

That said, it may be beneficial for you to think about how you are selling
yourself and your experience.

------
slance
Happened to me, I ran my own small ventures for about 2 years out of
university. They definitely didn't fail, but they didn't make me a millionaire
either. I cashed out of one of them with $20,000+ so it wasn't the end of the
world.

However, whilst being interviewed over the past month or two I've encountered
people who've really disliked the fact that I'd moved around several small
entrepreneurial projects and now wanted a job. Some people absolutely loved
it, but some people were really quite sceptical and even critical. Just shows
you that people can be stupid, you have to keep trying as many as it takes
until someone understands your value and doesn't make some retarded judgement
based on something that doesn't matter.

As a sidenote, I found that the CEOs and founders that interviewed me were
very keen on the entrepreneurial aspect to my cv. The middle management and
wage monkeys weren't at all.

------
10ren
_as an entrep_ r _eneur you are obviously a free spirit, not the kind of
person that settles well in a normal job_

Thus does the domesticated assail the free.

------
apinstein
Companies are smart enough to know that when a potential employee has done a
startup and liked it, they unlikely won't be happy in a corporate job.

When writing a resume, you need to be careful to tailor it for the reader. If
you're applying to work at a place that values free-thinking and risk-taking,
then leave it on there. If you're applying to work at a consulting company or
less-inventive company, they will see it as a red flag.

No company wants to train someone for a job only to have them bail to do their
own thing.

You can still talk about it to the latter type of company, but you have to
spin it in a way that doesn't make them think you're a rogue and unlikely to
be happy in a corporate environment.

Alan

------
edw519
_Thanks HN. You lied to me about the true cost of a failed startup._

This is either:

a. Bait. You got me.

b. A poor joke. Next time you may want to try <sarcasm> and </sarcasm>.

or

c. Your true feelings. You have a attitude problem. The large software company
noticed too. Fix your stinkin' thinkin' and stop blaming others for your
failure. I wonder if "lack of money" was the only cause of your startup's
failure.

~~~
zubar
I don't see why you got downvoted for what I think is good adivce.

------
iheartrms
Also note that you don't have to include that failed startup on your resume if
you really feel it is hurting you.

~~~
zubar
So I should lie about what I've been doing for the past 2 years?

~~~
yummyfajitas
"CEO and Founder of startup.com" -> "Senior Django Developer for startup.com"

~~~
randallsquared
You can do that, but even in exactly the same market, two different companies
(or contract firms, in my case) may want diametrically opposite changes to
your resume (or CV, in your case). Here in the DC area, I was told to play
down my business ownership _and_ that the amount of money I was asking was
"unrealistic" (and did I want to maybe talk about something 20-30K lower?)
within a coupla weeks of being hired at more than the "unrealistic" salary by
someplace I'd sent the older version of my resume. It's incredibly variable.

~~~
banned_man
Unscrupulous recruiters have a habit of trying to get you to come down on
salary. Remember that their incentives are not the same as yours.

I had the same experience. Had been employed at X, headhunter told me to
consider jobs at X-15 (this was February 2007). I got one at X+35.

------
mattmcknight
Odd that you would even get that kind of feedback. If they really have that
sort of rule, wouldn't they just toss your resume on the pile? Most large
companies avoid giving specific reasons for rejecting you, as that information
could contribute to legal risk. (e.g., "too much experience" = ageism)

------
jacoblyles
You could always try to apply to a younger, smaller firm. You would probably
enjoy your job more too.

------
gord
Thats not a company you want to work for - they are looking for people who
don't think.

------
quizbiz
Everyone faces rejection and failure. Persist onward and success will come
soon enough. Don't give up. You can't win if you don't keep trying.

No one here lied to you but there is no absolute truth.

------
bkudria
Uh, no, HN is not wrong, the company is wrong. Why would you want to work for
such a company?

You know yourself better than the company does, and "free spirit" vs. "not the
kind that settles in a normal job" is not only a gross generalization, an
artificial dichotomy, and generally B.S., you know yourself better than they
do! You know you are perfect capable of settling in a normal job, right?

Again, the company seems to be looking for a drone, and hiring that way.
Surely you can find something better?

------
jmtame
Maybe if you're applying to State Farm. Why on earth would you want to work
for them? Find another young start up, brush yourself off, and try again. You
only fail when you quit.

------
CyberED
Corporations will only hire drones and you have to prove that you are a drone
in order to get hired. By being entrepreneurial you are automatically labeled
as an anti-drone, therefore, no job. The only border line exception to this
rule is sales. In sales you are expected to be like the hunter's dog, bring in
the game and be content with getting cold leftovers the next morning. That's
after it was you that jumped into the freezing lake not the hunter.

------
danbmil99
I agree with the prospective employer. Any place that could think that way
will make you miserable, and you would be a terrible hire for them.

------
astrodust
You probably don't want to work at a company where they think failure is an
automatic disqualification. In order to succeed you must take chances, and
sometimes you miss the mark but not from a lack of not trying hard enough.

Perhaps they just fire you when you commit your first broken build. Then you
could have an entire team of programmers that have never submitted buggy code.

------
subhash
They are resenting the fact that you are an outlier, a 'free spirit' and even
if you had succeeded in your startup, they wouldn't see the relevance of that
success to a (seemingly boring) desk job. UK companies read a lot 'between the
lines' and it can be frustrating to find your strengths noted as weaknesses.
Try not letting that affect your own perceptions.

------
AlfaWolph
Did you ever consider that you probably don't want to work somewhere that
considers lack of failure (and the opportunity to learn from them) to be a
good thing? Of course, if you're just trying to get something to pay the bills
for now, I sympathize. Maybe it's an even newer lesson to take from this that
applies to interviewing at big organizations.

------
asmdsr
I work at Google, and I am quite certain that the (failed) startup experience
played a part in getting hired there.

------
jlees
It's true that a monolithic software company might feel someone with a mind of
their own was too free-spirited to fit in. But if that's the case, surely you
don't want to be working for the company anyway? And if it's a recurring
pattern, take the startup off your resume if you can't reword it.

------
baha_man
"...we would never hire people with a failed startup on their _resume_ "

"In my experience within the UK graduate market..."

So was this job in the UK? If so, was the recruiter American?

------
blender
Tailor your resume to the potential employer - remove the startup for the
conservative ones.

If it's a really long time just say you were a free lance consultant or
something.

Cheers

------
khangtoh
>> Thanks HN. You lied to me about the true cost of a failed startup.

You are kidding right?

------
known
How does one know that interviewer is smarter than the interviewee?

------
icey
Looks like a case of terrible attitude to me.

------
garply
What company?

------
banned_man
_Apparently, "as an entrepeneur you are obviously a free spirit, not the kind
of person that settles well in a normal job, we would never hire people with a
failed startup on their resume"._

By their own logic (maybe I'm giving them too much credit, by assuming
consistency) they probably wouldn't want to hire someone with a successful
startup either.

~~~
puns
Then again, you probably wouldn't be looking for a job if your startup was a
success. I agree with you though -- I think it's just a case of them not
wanting someone with a high level of ambition and drive, and instead needing
someone who would fill that position for the long term.

------
earl
First, I (we?) would be really interested in hearing what company. Please
spill.

Second, I don't know what type of job you're looking for but the two startups
that I've worked at both think very highly of startup experience on your
resume, failed or not. If you pursued a startup idea it tends to indicate all
sorts of good things -- self directed, can run with ideas, aren't averse to a
certain amount of boring but necessary work, etc. Of course, you should expect
to be grilled on why it failed and what you would do differently.

Third, Scribd always needs good rails people, so send your resume if you want.
Email is in the profile.

------
GrandMasterBirt
My response:

1) You don't want that job. You really don't. They want in-the-box thinkers
who would never question why they didn't get their raise this year. They want
risk-averse programmers caz you can exploit them.

2) HN never lied. In probability there are no absolutes. if I or my manaders
had to choose between two resumes of equal qualifications all would choose the
one with a startup. I doubt any programmer I personally worked with would
dissagree(or their manager). However there are exceptions to this rule. Some
simply want the workers that work not the workers that think.

3) You really don't want to work for them... Do you want to work with people
who never act on their dreams or hopes, only whine and complqin and sit down
and shut the fuck up about problems at work when it comes to talking to
managers or asking for appropriate pay for teir tallent (if they got it)?
Every job I take I want to gain something. At 60 ill take the safe job and
retire on it. Till then I want to wor with people who challenge me, not
conformists.

So OP really consider is it so bad that you don't want that job? If you do
FIGHT FOR IT. Call em tell em THEY WANTYOU! What do you have to lose? Only
gain!

