
In the Land of Vendettas That Go on Forever - Thevet
http://www.vqronline.org/reporting-articles/2017/10/land-vendettas-go-forever
======
cousin_it
Obligatory:
[https://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/TOXICVAL.HTM](https://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/TOXICVAL.HTM)

I grew up in Russia and have met a few people who subscribe to the "honor"
philosophy of life, where personal insults must be repaid by personal violence
up to killing. Such people can be fun, intelligent, charming. But I will
_never_ enter any serious business or personal relationship with anyone like
that, and will teach my children the same.

~~~
ronilan
But what about collective honor?

Isn't _a nation which can prefer disgrace to danger prepared for a master and
deserves one_?

~~~
vkou
Collective honor is alive and well in the West. If you have doubts, look at
the United States' overreaction to 9/11.

~~~
oh_sigh
What extent do you think the reaction to 9/11 was honor, versus 'we can't let
this happen again'?

~~~
QAPereo
As opposed to attempts to make money, start wars (see “make money”),
promulgate an ideology, win political points, gain power over a populace
(Patriot Act), and just plain fear?

------
Mediterraneo10
As a frequent visitor to Albania, I find this article appalling. The author
goes out of her way to make Albania seem a weird, Borat-like country. Sadly,
while it is common for Western journalists to visit Albania in order to write
an article about blood feuds as an easy sale to magazines, they rarely put
blood feuds in context – they are limited to a distinct region of the country,
their real heyday was the 1990s, and the absolute number of people affected is
very small even by the standards of Albania’s population. Furthermore, the
country has made enormous strides in development, and much of Albania is now
little different from any other Eastern European country. Writing an article
about Albania and pointing to road quality is mainly an anachronism, and
complaining about the difficulty of finding a ferry just makes her look like a
bellend incapable of doing normal things that travelers do in most countries
on earth.

And then the complaint about the Albanian language is ridiculous. The
orthography is pretty straightforward and Albanian phonology heavily overlaps
with English (one reason that Albanians can often have good accents in English
even if the don’t actually know the language as well as it would seem). And
when she writes this:

> _Ukuˆgaan iˆxamnakuˆx_ or “Nice to see you.”

I speak fairly good Albanian now, but I have no clue what this is supposed to
be. It is not Albanian, at least not in any standard orthography.

~~~
pdabbadabba
I don't blame you for defending a nation that, in my experience, is the victim
of a lot of ugly stereotypes in the United States (and probably much of
western Europe) in the face of an unflattering article. But I think you're
being a little harsh--to me the author seemed to be going out of her way to
make clear she was describing only a limited part of the country.

For example, the article makes crystal clear that, that, as you say, the feuds
are limited to a small portion of Albania:

> The killing is concentrated in northern Albania—in the rural, often
> unreachable villages of the Accursed Mountains, and in the modern city of
> Shkodër, one of the oldest municipalities in southeastern Europe.

Similarly, the author's comments about the road, etc., are specifically about
"northern Albania." I'm in no position to determine whether or not this
addresses the substance of your comment but, at the very least, it is clear
that this description is not about the country as a whole.

And finally, about the language: I'm again in no position to judge (though it
_does_ seem likely that written Albanian would be challenging for an English
speaker simply due to the much larger number alphabet), but I'll just note
that the quote you reproduce is, I suspect, intended to be written
phonetically, not using standard Albanian orthography.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
> to me the author seemed to be going out of her way to make clear she was
> describing only a limited part of the country.

No, her presentation is very jumbled. Talking about ISIS on the basis of an
“ex-Army friend”? Northern Albania is overwhelmingly Catholic, and that
mention of Islamism results from suddenly trying to bring Kosovo and Macedonia
into the article (and even then, her “ex-Army friend” is exaggerating).

~~~
pdabbadabba
We can agree that her army friend sounds like a nut, and it was probably poor
judgment to include those inflammatory quotes from him. ("When you touch down
get a decent knife and keep it on you," for example, sounds like poor advice
at best.) And we can probably agree that the short passage you highlighted is
not great as a whole. If I were her editor, I might have taken it out. But I'm
not sure what this has to do with the point under discussion, which was
whether the author made clear that the feuds are limited to a small portion of
Albania, and are far from a nationwide phenomenon.

Moreover, for the record, the potential for radicalization of Albanian Muslims
is by no means an issue of this author's own invention. It's easy to find
numerous other examples of reports to this effect. So it seems indisputably
true that "there are still worried mumblings" that Albania could become a
recruiting ground for ISIS. One can easily find these worried mumblings with a
cursory Google search. (Of course, the truth of the underlying proposition may
be a different matter. I don't know.) I also have serious doubts about your
statistics. Albania as a whole is majority Muslim
[[https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/...](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/geos/al.html)], and Albanian Kosovars are overwhelmingly Muslim
[[https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/22/world/europe/how-the-
saud...](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/22/world/europe/how-the-saudis-
turned-kosovo-into-fertile-ground-for-isis.html)]. So it would stand to reason
that northern Albania has at least a sizable Muslim population.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
> So it would stand to reason that northern Albania has at least a sizable
> Muslim population.

No, there is no sizable Muslim population in Northern Albania. While in the
far south Orthodox Christianity and Islam are very mixed, in the far north the
population is almost 100% Catholic.

~~~
pdabbadabba
I'm really not that interested in belaboring this point, but you're painting
with such a broad brush (and by merely repeating the same assertions), that I
couldn't resist digging in a little further. And it turns out that, indeed,
there _is_ a sizable Muslim population in Northern Albania--unless you're
using some special definition of "northern Albania." (I suppose this is
possible. But, if so, it does not appear to coincide with the region being
discussed in the article--Shkodër and the Accursed Mountains--which both
appear to be areas with significant numbers of Muslims). There are portions of
the north that are overwhelmingly Catholic (not actually inconsistent with
there also being a sizable Muslim population, but never mind), but also many
other areas of the north that are majority Muslim.

Source [via Wikipedia]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania#/media/Fil...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania#/media/File:Albania_majority_religion_2011_census.png)

~~~
Mediterraneo10
Shkodër and that portion of the Accursed Mountains where _gjakmarrja_ saw a
revival in the 1990s, are within that portion of your map that designates an
overwhelmingly Catholic area. To the northeast is an area with a larger Muslim
population, but within the context of Albanian culture that area (Kukës,
Peshkopi) tends to be designated "Northeastern Albania" to set it apart from
Northern Albania that is centered around Shkodër.

North and Northeastern Albania were separated by considerable natural barriers
until recent times, and while the Ottomans made inroads in the latter and
Islam spread, in the former the Ottomans never established a firm grip and the
area was a fortress of Roman Catholicism.

------
SonOfLilit
> Conflict is an especially fertile ground for cultural innovation. Friedman
> stresses how many legal systems, including advanced ones with lawyers and
> codes and everything, show signs of originating from feud systems, which
> might be the most basic form of law. They work like this: “If you offend me
> in some way, I will try to kill you”. A slightly more advanced version that
> takes account of possibly power differentials between offender and victim:
> “If you offend me in some way, everybody in my family will try to kill
> everybody in your family”. This originally sounds unpromising, but it turns
> out that people really don’t want their family members murdered. So we end
> up with an even more advanced version: “If you offend me in some way, we had
> better find some way to arbitrate our dispute, _or else_ everybody in my
> family will try to kill everybody in your family”.

Scott Alexander, Book Review: Legal Systems Very Different From Our Own
[http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/11/13/book-review-legal-
syste...](http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/11/13/book-review-legal-systems-very-
different-from-ours/)

------
pfortuny
There is an impressive novel by Albanian Ismail Kadaré dealing with this:
Broken April.

------
dinedal
I think the article is exaggerating a lot, I was in Shkodër for a month in
2004 and while it was filled with culture shock, I never felt unsafe as a
tourist. That said, I also didn't decline the Raki or Saleep...

... I miss the Saleep.

------
z3t4
If there's 1/10000 chance that something you do will offend someone, and you
do it on the Internet, there _will_ be people that want's to kill you.
Hopefully you are not using your real name ;)

------
tryingagainbro
Nonsense and very outdated.

We all agree that "justice" needs to be done. Before there was traditional law
and order by the "state": you kill my kin, I killed yours. It kept things in
order and fear of revenge made you think twice.

In Albania like in many transitional countries you could escape traditional
justice by paying judges. Or the police never did their job as they should.
Now, what's one to do when you see the killer walking freely ? It happened in
Sicily, Corsica, it happens in Pashtun areas etc etc. It's really simple: No
law, revenge takes over.

By the way, this only affects families involved, and in most cases even others
inside the family are ruled out: "I only have problems with the person that
killed my son, others are free."

------
ardit33
Albanian here (living in NYC), and this is a grossly over-exagerated article,
and she has no citations whatsoever on her numbers, just a attention
seeking/sensationalist article.

The region is very remote. It takes hours to get in a main city, and usually
the region is blocked during the winter. Historically this place is Catholic
as the Turks/Ottoman empire couldn't influence the region at some of the
traditions had carried on.

I was in the region this summer and it is beautiful place to visit. Some of
the scenery looks like like strait out of a Lord Of the Rings movie.
[https://scontent-
iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19961488_10103...](https://scontent-
iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19961488_10103884798269921_5787494737571968257_n.jpg?oh=25e7f90a4a270f6db5638fd6c6120950&oe=5AA5DD4F)

[https://scontent-
iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19958917_10103...](https://scontent-
iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19958917_10103884797830801_2850711056259788533_n.jpg?oh=1828c60fc1463ac1319befe6d47627b4&oe=5A96D81E)

[https://scontent-
iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19989538_10103...](https://scontent-
iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19989538_10103884797556351_9162254379261742652_n.jpg?oh=081353f59af62166321ac2b9ec91bf4b&oe=5AAD4EAA)

[https://scontent-
iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19959110_10103...](https://scontent-
iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19959110_10103884797601261_2948421281904755704_n.jpg?oh=cf06b4a6e0971046d0fd28ec53cb76d5&oe=5A9B2935)

[https://scontent-
iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20032008_10103...](https://scontent-
iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20032008_10103884797212041_1684120578030684002_n.jpg?oh=bb05e5a920e3734cd40dc280a9b2c776&oe=5A90AEC4)

[https://scontent-
iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20031807_10103...](https://scontent-
iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20031807_10103884796937591_8280708970147583766_n.jpg?oh=0d2d1b9f58ee48df4dfe1f7e383a9a61&oe=5AA747E5)

"if the person who has offered it is simultaneously recounting how, a few
years back, he got angry and shot a man. Such is the custom here: You honor
your host’s hospitality."

\-- That just doesn't happen. Trash article.

Please don't get discouraged by this. If you visit the Thethi region, I'd
highly recommend during the summer and a 4x4 / SUV. If you love hiking and the
occasional 4x4 off-roading, this is a great place to visit.

Bujtina Polia, [https://www.booking.com/hotel/al/bujtina-
polia.html](https://www.booking.com/hotel/al/bujtina-polia.html)

Thethi Paradise [https://www.booking.com/hotel/al/thethi-
paradise.html](https://www.booking.com/hotel/al/thethi-paradise.html)

------
tousperdugen
Unfortunately, the article is not well-researched. There is no effort to
explain the social-economic roots of the problem at hand. No historic
background or recognition that the problem spans across borders
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krvna_osveta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krvna_osveta))
. I find the title bombastic and inappropriate; it is simply using the
catchword “vendetta” as clickbait. If you visited Corsica or Sicily and
observed/learned of a local custom or phenomenon, would you extrapolate that
phenomenon to the rest of the country (respectively France/Italy)? And what a
coincidence that the author is of Serbian / Slavic origin.

~~~
pdabbadabba
Fair enough on the lack of historical/socioeconomic background. That would
have been interesting--though it's not clear to me why such a discussion is
actually _necessary_ here, as you suggest. (And it strikes me as a bit odd to
describe this sort of article, based on apparently extensive first-person
reportage, as "not well researched".)

But note that the author does _not_ extrapolate to the rest of the country.

> The killing is concentrated in northern Albania—in the rural, often
> unreachable villages of the Accursed Mountains, and in the modern city of
> Shkodër, one of the oldest municipalities in southeastern Europe.

To me, it is significantly more problematic to suggest that the article is the
product of some sort of bias against Albanians merely because the author--who
is a professional author/journalist and Guggenheim fellow--has Croatian
grandparents

