
Scott Forstall leaves Apple - FredericJ
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012/10/29Apple-Announces-Changes-to-Increase-Collaboration-Across-Hardware-Software-Services.html
======
dave1619
Here are the major changes announced:

1\. Jony Ive's role is expanded from Industrial Design to Industrial Design
AND Human Interface. In other words, Ive is the new Design chief for hardware
and software. This is huge.

2\. Scott Forstall is out (after an interim advising role to Tim Cook). iOS
goes to Craig Federighi who already oversees Mac OS. So, now iOS and Mac OS
are overseen by the same person.

3\. Eddy Cue's role is expanded (he previously was in charge of iTunes, App
Store, iBookStore, iCloud). He now also oversees Siri and Maps.

4\. Bob Mansfield will lead a new group called Technologies (wireless and
semiconductor).

5\. John Browett of retail is out.

Overall, I view this move as extremely positive.

Tim Cook just elevated his most reliable and capable SVPs to assume more
leadership role.

John Ive, Eddy Cue, Mansfield and Federighi have all proven to be pretty
spectacular. Ive with industrial design, Cue with iTunes/AppStore/iCloud,
Mansfield with hardware and Federighi with Mac OS.

Further, Tim Cook gets rid of his problem SVPs - namely Browett who didn't
match the culture of Apple... and Scott Forstall (who advanced iOS in huge
ways) but reportedly had problems with getting along with other SVPs and also
who disappointed users with iOS6/Maps (and also in my opinion poorly designed
and implemented Apple apps... appstore reviews for Apple apps have gone
significantly down the last year or two).

Cook will probably give Forstall a good severance package with an agreement
that Forstall doesn't go to a mobile OS competitor.

I'm actually more optimistic on Apple with this bold management shakeup. Tim
Cook is showing the moves of a bold leader... and it's exactly what Apple
needs.

~~~
sigzero
I agree! I only see good in these moves.

------
archgrove
Anyone who A) likes Apple and B) has ever been in a Dixons store in the UK
will be overjoyed with the other departure, Browett (head of retail and
previous Dixons CEO) who is leaving _immediately_ (compared to Forstall's year
long "transition" departure). Dixons is everything that Apple should never be;
terrible customer service, clueless minimum wage staff, horrible retail
experience, and generally used only by people who desperately need something
immediately or are too naive to find another store.

Recent news out of Apple regarding "cutbacks" at retail suggested he was
nudging them in the same direction. Given that he got his first stock
disbursement last week and was due _$58 million_ over the next few years if he
hung around, I'm guessing he was pushed. Great decision from Cook if that was
the case.

~~~
w0utert
>> _Anyone who A) likes Apple and B) has ever been in a Dixon's store in the
UK will be overjoyed with the other departure, Browett (head of retail) who is
leaving immediately (compared to Forstall's year long "transition" departure).
Dixon's is everything that Apple should never be; terrible customer service,
clueless minimum wage staff, horrible retail experience, and generally used
only by people who desperately need something immediately or are too naive to
find another store._

I agree, the one thing that irks me though, is that I remember reading the guy
was able to convert a sizable part of his Apple stock options only a few weeks
ago. That's a quick & cool few million $$$ he made in one year at Apple
without any apparent positive contribution :-/

~~~
Bud
Viewed from the other side, though, he did convert $3 million, yes, but Apple
saved $57 million.

Apple can afford to lose the three mil. They'll make that back in a few days
once somebody who actually _gets_ Apple's retail concept is running the show
again. Somebody who respects the model that brought Apple top-of-the-charts
customer service ratings. Somebody who respects that if you're making more
money per square foot than any other retail store in the world, you might be
doing something right.

------
apike
> Scott Forstall will be leaving Apple next year

> Jony Ive will provide leadership and direction for Human Interface (HI)
> across the company

And thus ended the reign of skeuomorphism at Apple. Or, at least, the reign of
hyper-realism and hyper-whimsy in UI design. Jobs or Forstall always seemed to
favour it, but could you imagine Jony Ive signing off on a Podcasts app where
half the screen is a reel-to-reel tape that bounces when you pause?

~~~
zach
That's what's so weird, though — that particular reel-to-reel design actually
seems like a deliberate combination of both influences.

The skeuomorphic look of Podcasts was based on a physical product design by
Ive's legendary design influence, Dieter Rams:

[http://www.cultofmac.com/176008/heres-the-braun-tape-
recorde...](http://www.cultofmac.com/176008/heres-the-braun-tape-recorder-
that-inspired-apples-podcasts-app-gallery/)

In retrospect, the tension inherent in this odd compromise seems palpable.
It's like listening to the last album a band releases before they break up.

~~~
jarek
Skeuomorphing physical objects designed by Rams is still skeuomorphing.

~~~
fleitz
Skeuomorphic design is rarely as little design as possible which is what makes
the podcast design so iconic... er.. ironic.

~~~
89a
Same goes for this stupid piece of shit <http://www.wthr.co>

~~~
jarek
I was so confused when I saw that app a couple of months back. Why spend so
much effort creating an admittedly aesthetically pleasing design, name check
Rams and his principles, and so completely miss the point of "as little design
as possible" and have a non-functional spinner display for the current
conditions?

And having such a prominent °F/°C switch is just baffling. This is not a
function used regularly by the vast majority of users.

~~~
CamperBob2
(Shrug) I don't know anything about this app but I don't immediately get the
hate for it. It looks cool.

The spinner dial may not be functional, but it could be and should be, because
weather conditions change incrementally and (more or less) predictably. If
it's humid and cloudy and the barometric pressure is falling, then it would
make sense for the spinner dial to move slowly between "cloudy" and "raining"
positions, for instance.

And maybe the author of the app is an advocate of the metric system and wants
to encourage users to treat the °F/°C switch as a prominent educational
feature. Like I said, I don't know anything about it, but the amount of
negativity being aimed at the app seems difficult to justify.

~~~
jarek
I'm not sure if that part of the comment was aimed at me: I don't hate it, I
just think it fails at reaching or perhaps even understanding its stated
design goals.

~~~
CamperBob2
Mostly referring to 89a's criticism (" _Same goes for this stupid piece of
shit._ ") I usually reserve language like that for politicians, Sony products,
and iTunes, not cheesy weather apps.

------
danilocampos
Interesting that Eddie Cue remains the company fixer, taking on the quirky
Siri and the flakey Maps app just as he was once given a completely fucked up
MobileMe.

This is good news.

Even better news is Browett's ouster. The business with his cutting
operational corners in retail was a very, very bad omen. If they'd left him
in, he might have poisoned a very important well for the company. Hopefully
his replacement is closer to Ron Johnson's set of retail and service values.

N'bad, Tim.

~~~
Steko
As much as Apple's software and hardware are talked about, Eddie Cue is also
the guy largely responsible for negotiating Apple's superior media offerings
which is arguably Apple's biggest lead on their competitors internationally.

~~~
drivebyacct2
Great, I'll remember to curse him the next time I can't buy something because
it's EXCLUSIVELY listed in iTunes.

Not sure why this is downvoted. At least Apple's competitors allow me to buy
their music as Linux user.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
I just hate how slow the iTunes interface is on Windows, and the fact
everything's in m4a/AAC, not MP3.

~~~
bonzoesc
Isn't AAC a better codec than MP3 as far as quality per bit goes?

------
mlchild
People's reactions to this announcement are overly focused on Forstall's
assumed support for heavy skeumorphism (and their excitement at his departure
as lead proponent). I think his record as head of iOS since its inception is a
much more salient issue.

Forstall led development of the fastest-growing, most popular computing
platform of the past decade or so with, to be sure, a few notable screw-ups,
but mostly incredible innovation and efficiency. While his departure does
sound like the result of a power struggle that needed to be resolved, I really
believe we're shortchanging his incredible achievements. Forstall's departure
is not unequivocally or even clearly a victory for those who are firm
believers in iOS and its ecosystem going forward. The only reasonable reaction
is that we'll have to wait and see.

~~~
sounds
The thing about Forstall's achievements is he did them all under the shadow of
Steve Jobs.

Is it that he had to take a more active role now, and not just be a Jobs man?

Is it that Jobs could bring talented people together and keep them there and
Tim Cook is failing to do that?

I'm almost certain it's neither of those, but they serve to illustrate the
point: when people think of iOS, Scott Forstall is not even close to the first
person they think of giving credit to.

~~~
mlchild
I agree that probably neither or those explanations is fully true, but I do
believe that Jobs had the ability to harness conflicting personalities towards
greater goals.

I do disagree with your last point, though —— I've watched every keynote for
the past 6-7 years and Forstall has _rocked_ the iOS presentations. Perhaps
I'm biased, but I very deeply associate him with the greatness of iOS,
particularly Apple's ability to steadily pick off the "low-hanging fruit"
features (e.g. 3rd party apps in 2.0, copy-and-paste, PC-free) with regularity
and elegance.

------
mukaiji
Just to be clear, he's not "leaving." He got fired. He got fired because after
the map fiasco became apparent, he refused to send out an apology or sign his
name to the one Tim Cook sent. (internal knowledge)

~~~
wisty
(No internal knowledge)

I'm surprised he got fired over maps. Mapping is _hard_ \- comparable to
writing a search engine. Apple did as well as can be expected for a first
attempt. They had some kind of problem with Google Maps, and wanted to build
their own capability, which was never going to be easy.

He might have been fired if he cheated, by creating a well curated Valley
dataset to prove to the other execs what a great job he'd done. That would
annoy people.

I've heard rumors that he was seen as "better managing up than down"
(impressing his boss, at the expense of results), and that doesn't strike me
as something Tim Cook would like very much (both from his reported management
style, and the number of stock options he has). I can see that being a last
straw from Tim - "You screwed up, now own up to it. Or else."

~~~
mbreese
If he did get fired over maps, it wasn't because mapping is hard, or that the
app didn't deliver.

It would be because he over promised _and_ under delivered.

Sure, it was embarrassing to Apple to release a half-assed Maps app, but even
more so to tout it just a few weeks earlier as being soooo good.

~~~
masklinn
> It would be because he over promised and under delivered.

 _And_ alledgedly refused to own up to it.

------
wisty
I think there's a few layers to this:

1) Forstall apparently wants to be CEO, and run the company. That puts him at
odds with Cook (the CEO), and Ive (who wants to drive Apple's design
decisions).

2) He's divisive. There's claims that neither Jonny Ive nor Bob Mansfield
would talk to him without Tim Cook mediating. There's also claims that he
"managed up" (showed off to the boss) better than he "managed down", and stole
credit while deflecting critisism.

3) He was the guy in charge of Siri and Maps.

4) He was probably the one driving the post-Jobs war with Google.

Siri and Maps are Apple's way of fighting Google. Siri competes with Google
Search, and Maps competes with Google Maps. There are reasons why Apple wants
to spite Google, but the whole strategy could also be Scot Forstall's way of
creating his own empire in Apple. Going head to head with Google requires lots
of resources, which would all be under Forstall's command.

I don't think it's a good gamble for Apple. Google doesn't really hate Apple.
I bet they'll port everything they can to iOS, as long as they can keep
pushing their ads. Nexus might see Apple as a competitor, but Nexus isn't
worth as much as adwords. As Eric Schmidt said in an interview - "It's their
call".

If Apple goes down the path Forstall wants, they'll be going head to head with
Google in the things Google is best at. If they stop trying to turn into a
data / AI company, they can focus on what they do best - making easy to use
devices which sell like hotcakes, and command a fat profit margin.

Android will hurt them, but as long as they focus on their core strengths
(hardware, marketing, industrial design, interface design, and integration)
they'll continue to do pretty well. They milked the iPod for a decade, despite
there being plenty of better value competitors. They can do the same with the
iPhone. They can do the same with whatever the next big thing is. I'd say
going to war with Google will be at best a waste of time, and most likely a
string of humiliating losses.

~~~
niels_olson
Spot on. I can't help but add that on the day Apple is getting a lot unwanted
press, the company you paint as Forstall's rival, Google, is also on HN front
page with a remarkably quiet announcement of a $399 10" 300 dpi tablet.

I hope this marks a low for Apple. All things considered, they could do a lot
worse. Hopefully they will only keep improving.

~~~
wisty
The only reason I'd buy a Nexus over an iPad is if Google offers great
integration (search + maps) on the Nexus, but Apple blocks them from doing the
same on the iPad.

If Google was a hardware company (not a search company) I could see why they
would screw over the iPad by not porting their apps. But Google is not a
hardware company, most of their revenue comes from search. They want Google
search (or the next generation, interfaced with their Siri clone) on every
phone and tablet. That's why they make Android open source.

Apple can try to screw over Google, by blocking Google apps (or just not
cooperating with Google on integration). They can offer their own search and
maps, but they'll do a crap job, and end up screwing their customers. It might
hurt Google, but it will also hurt Apple (as Android will have a big
advantage).

The best thing for both companies is cooperating to get Google features on the
iPhone. Sure, Apple may resent Android, but they are just going to have to
suck it up. If it weren't for Android, Microsoft would be making the leading
iOS substitute, and I can't see either Apple or Google loving that.

------
nostromo
Does anyone but me here listen incessantly to podcasts?

The latest Podcasts App from iTunes is a skeuomorphic mess. It has a
superfluous animation of a reel-to-reel player of course. But it utterly fails
at its most basic task: playing a goddamn podcast. But don't take my word for
it, it has a 1.5 star rating on iTunes:
<https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/podcasts/id525463029>

Not to mention crashes... Apple used to make jokes about the Windows blue
screen of death. Well, that's my new day-to-day experience with iOS apps. I'm
constantly restarting crashed apps over and over.

Honestly, this is good news if Forstall really is the driving force behind the
deteriorating user experience of many apps.

~~~
mcgroarty
The Podcast app and the iPad Music app are both a mess, and both happened
under Forstall as I understand it.

Trade away the lyric and podcast show info displays for kitsch wood veneer?
And a reel-to-reel tape recorder simulator? Move seek controls to weird
locations? Replace the easy-to-spot seek knob with a radio needle? Why? So
many small steps backward, even if no single one was a deal breaker...
negative trajectory is negative trajectory.

If this means they walk some of that silliness back, it's the best Apple news
in ages. It started to look like designers who didn't actually use the apps
were taking over.

~~~
gurkendoktor
I think that's unfair: The "everything is simplistic, monochrome gray" half of
Apple's recent design may be more tasteful in many people's view, but it isn't
any more _usable_.

I had many situations in which the auto-hidden scrollbars made it impossible
to tell that there was more to discover in a scroll view. The CAPS SIDEBAR
HEADERS have no triangle indicator anymore, it is impossible to tell without
hovering if a section is closed or open & empty. The monochrome sidebars made
Finder and iTunes noticeably less efficient in my usage. Many new-style
toolbars like Xcode's are not customizable anymore. etc...

And all these things are in line with Apple's hardware design (where I enjoy
the simplicity a lot more).

~~~
Gravityloss
The last time I looked, save dialogs for example in Preview were broken too,
as the horizontal scroll bar hid most of the lowest row even when you scrolled
to the absolute bottom. What were they thinking? That's a pretty serious basic
level bug that your UI is blocking your data. Don't they test such big
changes?

All kinds of things are broken left and right in OSX but I guess that's just
how it is. Mail hangs constantly and silently, you're just not receiving
anything anymore. You can't close it (and force quit is not an option
anymore?), you have to kill it from command line. The new calendar is brown
faux leather all of a sudden, completely different than everything else. And
you can't easily select which account you're viewing and setting events for.

It is interesting to note that software functionality and polish above a
certain mediocre level just can not be reached.

Sure, sometimes it's understandable that stuff is totally rewritten from
scratch since some fundamental new technology made it necessary, and you have
to go to a state of more brokenness. But even when that is not the case, it
seems software can't go beyond "90% complete" or so, at best it just reaches
an asymptotic level where stuff is broken at the same rate as it is repaired.

After the major and hard stuff is done, what the heck are all the engineers
and testers working on? If you're not in a hurry to create those big features
any more, you could concentrate on at least doing the few new small features
very well. But it feels as if OSX UI has taken as many steps backwards as it
has gone forward from Snow Leopard.

This happens in other software too. For example Xnview and XFLR5 have both
been developed for a long time and have had their ups and downs, and at the
moment might be below 50% of their historical level of "perfection". But
they're cheap/free mostly one man operations, multiplatform and have had
massive rewrites and feature expansions. Often the developer might not even
have some supported platform to test platform specific issues on, and it's a
surprise they work as well as they do.

------
mratzloff
He oversaw Siri and Maps, two products which over-promised and under-
delivered, and six months ago he cashed out 95% of his Apple stock.

I think it was evident he lost the power struggle and it killed his
enthusiasm. His heart just wasn't in it anymore.

~~~
ricardobeat
That's interesting, do you have a source for the stock cash-out?

~~~
mratzloff
Sure. Here you go:

[http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57425920-37/apple-exec-
sco...](http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57425920-37/apple-exec-scott-
forstall-sells-off-95-percent-of-his-shares/)

~~~
ricardobeat
Thanks! Interesting quote:

    
    
        Although a major sell-off can sometimes mean an executive 
        is leaving a company, that might not be the case with Forstall.
    

I wonder why this didn't generate any rumours of his departure at the time?

~~~
jason_slack
I think this is more interesting:

"Forstall has made it abundantly clear inside Cupertino that he would like to
eventually be Apple's chief executive, adding that "he wears his ambition in
plainer view than the typical Apple executive.""

~~~
fudged71
Power struggle. It'll be interesting to see where he goes next.

------
feverishaaron
Interesting that Jony will be overseeing UI. I expect a more minimalistic
polish to upcoming interfaces. In other words, this is the beginning of the
end for the skeuomorphism trend at Apple.

~~~
dclusin
You're the second person that mentioned skeuomorphism. Could you please
explain what it is and why it's a big todo? Most of my cursory google searches
don't provide any particularly insightful definition of what it is. The
blogs/rants usually just dive into why it's good or bad.

~~~
feverishaaron
Skeuomorphism has been interpreted two ways - as decorative elements (leather
stitching), and in functionality that attempts to emulate a real world object
(page flipping in an e-book).

The former is just a matter of aesthetic preference. Where skeuomorphism gets
dangerous is in the latter case.

A perfect example is the horrible address book in OS X. It looks like a book,
and therefore the user expects it to function like a book. Yet, it doesn't.
It's this area of interaction design that has run afoul at Apple.

~~~
eridius
You give "page flipping in an e-book" as an example of dangerous
skeuomorphism, but then cite Address Book as why it's bad. I'm a bit confused.
I get why you don't like Address Book, but do you really think page flipping
in an e-reader is bad too? If so, why do you think that?

~~~
MetricMike
The dichotomy is what's dangerous. Address Book looks like an book, so I'll
try to interact with it like that. When that doesn't work, I get confused,
angry, and it's generally a "failure" from a UX point of view.

Neither form of skeuomorphism is inherently bad, but it's easier to shoot
yourself in the foot and ruin the UX when you move from decorative to
functional.

~~~
eridius
Yes, I get the complaints about Address Book. But "page flipping in an e-book"
is either really poorly written, or was not referring to Address Book to begin
with, since Address Book is not an e-book. Hence my question.

~~~
feverishaaron
Indeed, they were intended to be separate examples.

------
aaronbrethorst
Interesting timing on the announcement, given that the stock market is closed
today and likely tomorrow too.

As both a fan and shareholder of Apple, I'm very pleased to hear Browett is
out. The stories that came out a couple months ago about the changes in Apple
Retail did fill me with admiration for his management style.

Also, given how Forstall is described in a Business Week profile[1], _and_
that Bob Mansfield is not only sticking around, but heading up a new team, I
wonder if Mansfield laid out an ultimatum to Tim Cook about 'him or me'.

[1] [http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-
sorc...](http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-sorcerers-
apprentice-at-apple-10122011.html)

~~~
dave1619
Regarding Mansfield, it's interesting that Apple announced his retirement a
few months ago: [http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012/06/28Bob-Mansfield-
Appl...](http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012/06/28Bob-Mansfield-Apples-
Senior-Vice-President-of-Hardware-Engineering-to-Retire.html)

Then Cook convinced Mansfield to "unretire" and become an advisor:
[http://gigaom.com/apple/shedding-light-on-apple-exec-
drama-w...](http://gigaom.com/apple/shedding-light-on-apple-exec-drama-why-
svp-bob-mansfield-unretired/)

And now, Mansfield heads up a huge new group called Technologies (wireless,
semiconductor, etc).

What a roller coaster for Mansfield... but not just him, the entire management
team because they're all working together and dependent on each other.

~~~
nirvana
I think retaining key talent is one of Tim Cooks' most important jobs... and
this shows pretty clearly that Mansfield was tired of his previous job, wanted
to retire, and Tim found a way to create a position that interested him, or at
least, would keep him around for a couple more years.

And this new section, I think, could be really important.

Apple has been really innovating in silicon and wireless technologies, and
they're at a point where this will increasingly be the source of key
competitive advantages.

I suspect Mansfield's job is to integrate this division, get it whipped into
shape and then recruit a replacement to lead it.

------
smegel
Can everyone saying "it's unfair to dump him due to Maps, because mapping is
hard" realize it has nothing to do with the quality of the application, but
the quality (or lack thereof) of the PR and management of customer
expectations.

If Apple had come out 3 months before iPhone5 and said "Look, we really need
to divorce ourselves from Google Maps as we can't be relying on an arch-
competitor for such an important service, but please be aware that our new
Maps app will have issues for several months as we work out the kinks based on
customer feedback", and reinforced that message several times, the issue would
have been close to a non-issue - and I think most people would have
understood.

Instead they came out and said "new Maps is the greatest thing since sliced
bread!" (paraphrasing) which was downright wrong and people rightly felt let
down.

~~~
bennyg
I don't know about that PR move you suggested. It's not very becoming of the
market leader to publicly express that their own product that hasn't launched
yet, and won't for 3 months, is buggy and incomplete - and to be patient with
them while it gets fixed. I don't agree that calling it the best ever was such
a great move, but that's what Apple does.

In a couple years, it won't matter what happened with the Maps launch. It'll
be great by then. And nobody will be talking about it - just like 0 "average
consumers" talk about antennagate.

~~~
smegel
It's not very becoming either that the CEO of such an image concious company
has to make a such grovelling apology for such an embarrassing failure...

I agree that in the long term Maps will be great and people will have
forgotten the ill-planned launch - except perhaps Scott Forstall.

~~~
bennyg
You're right too, but that's a better move than a preemptive apology. They
have the "report a problem" feature in the Maps app too, so it should help
organically grow.

I do miss Scott Forstall on stage, he was a good presenter.

------
msbarnett
Ive heading up "Human Interface" now. Say goodbye to the Rich Corinthian
Leather on every third App.

~~~
rolando
hallelujah!

------
bengl3rt
Another upside: iOS and OS X are now both run by the same person. Hopefully
this means that when there is convergence/overlap between the two platforms,
it will be done more thoughtfully, rather than taking something from one and
awkwardly bolting it onto the other one a la Launchpad.

------
martin_bech
At first I was shocked by the headline, but after reading the story, I
actually think, this could be amazing.

Getting Jony Ive to oversee both industrial and software design, could lead to
something very exciting, that provides the innovation, the software, has been
lacking.

I have full confidence, in Eddy Cue, Craig, and Bob their new roles, and hope
this means Bob will stay on longer.

As per the direct no apology firing of Browett.. Sweet! I was actually hoping
for that. I was insane to gamble with the Apple stores reputation and service
for a litle more margin. Having now seen a Dixons, I have no idea, why he was
hired

------
k-mcgrady
John Browett didn't last long. Jony Ive overseeing UI should be interesting
and might bring an end to the skeuomorphism bug at Apple.

I wonder how this will affect iOS. Forstall has been in charge from the
beginning (afaik) so we might see some big changes and even better integration
with OS X now that Craig Federighi is in charge of both teams.

Edit:

I wonder if Forstall's departure has anything to do with Mansfield staying on?

------
mukaiji
So... can we now all agree that Tim Cook is a good CEO?

~~~
pdenya
I don't know if anyone ever doubted Tim Cook as a good/credible CEO. The only
issue is whether or not he can be jobs-level which is unlikely but remains to
be seen.

~~~
sigzero
I think jobs-level is unattainable really. I am just hoping Cook is a
consistently great CEO.

------
arrrg
Jony Ive is now responsible for HI guidelines across the company?

That could turn out great or horrible. (I'm not sure whether obviously great
hardware designers can also be great UI designers.) I'm optimistic for now.
Hopefully that means bye bye overt skeumorphism.

(I do think Apple's UIs have in the past always been above average, sometimes
excellent. Their fashion choices, however, have at times been horrible. It
would be great if Apple could change the second, not necessarily the first
part.)

~~~
pooriaazimi
The man's got taste. That's good enough for me. Though I fear that it probably
_is_ "bye bye overt skeumorphism", but what if the new ideology is "hello
excessive minimalism/removing every last _pro_ feature left"? Let's hope not.

I don't use iCal or Address Book much, so I don't hate that stupid
skeumorphism like the rest of the world (I like it though when it's used
sparingly and isn't just keep getting in your way)...

~~~
CamperBob2
_The man's got taste._

That was true of Jobs as well... but holy crap, have you seen his yacht?

Unfortunately, good aesthetic judgement in one area doesn't always carry over
into other areas, even those that seem closely related. Human-machine
interfaces have a functional aspect that can't be handled by dashing off yet
another homage to Dieter Rams. Ive hasn't yet shown competence in this aspect
of design.

~~~
masklinn
> That was true of Jobs as well... but holy crap, have you seen his yacht?

On the other hand, have you seen the designs the approved for the future HQ?

~~~
leoc
To be honest, the new HQ design looks both bombastic and anonymous to me. I
especially wonder what it's going to look like from ground level; I have a
sneaking suspicion that the circular facade is going to make it look like
you're at the back of the building no matter where you are. But it's very hard
to judge these things in advance from a few illustrations.

------
matheusalmeida
Given that 50% of the posts talk about skeuomorphism and honestly I didn't
know what it was, here's the definition from Wikipedia: _"A skeuomorph, or
skeuomorphism is when a product imitates design elements functionally
necessary in the original product design, but that becomes ornamental in the
new product design"_.

~~~
snowwrestler
It's a new word for an old concept: a decorative anachronism. Obvious examples
from outside the world of computing include stone pillars in front of
important buildings, and rivets on jeans.

It's abused here on HN as short-hand for app decorations that people don't
like, like the infamous leather treatment on the calendar.

But there are plenty of "skeuomorphic" aspects to iOS that I never see anyone
complain about (and sometimes compliment), like inertial scrolling or sliding
on/off switches.

~~~
Gravityloss
Inertial scrolling is tremendously useful, you can scroll more with fewer
swipes.

------
FredericJ
Can't wait to read this thread on Quora. [http://www.quora.com/Apple-
Inc-2/Why-is-Scott-Forstall-leavi...](http://www.quora.com/Apple-Inc-2/Why-is-
Scott-Forstall-leaving-Apple)

~~~
gergles
I'd love to read it too. Unfortunately, I can't: """ Sign in to read this
page. You may only read Quora content while logged in.

Sign In with Facebook I Already Have a Quora Account

Why do I need to join to read this? Quora is a knowledge-sharing community
that depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. """

I'm going to put out a request to 'stop linking to Quora', because we readily
decry this shit when expertsexchange does it, but when a Valley Darling does
it, it's OK?

(Interestingly, they're A/Bing 'forced' login - when I loaded the page again
in an incognito window, a "Cancel" option suddenly appeared.)

(Edit: the cancel option is worthless, every answer is unreadable and covered
with: """ Join Quora for free to read this answer.

Connect to Facebook Connect to Twitter

Connecting helps us surface content that is relevant to you. We'll never post
without your permission.

I don't have a Facebook or Twitter account. )"""

------
jakespencer
Wow, this is great news all around. Jony Ive can only improve the Human
Interfaces we've seen, and although he was obviously good at a lot of things,
Forstall did tend to over-promise and under-deliver (Siri, Maps). This makes
me feel great about Cook as CEO.

~~~
jakespencer
And good riddance to Browett.

------
revelation
I'm not an Apple insider. Pushing Google Maps away seems to me like a
political decision reserved for someone like Cook, not Forstall. If Cook
shoved Google out and tasked Forstall with the impossible task of developing a
better maps offering in what amounts to a year, this would be a sign that
upper management jumped the shark, not Forstall himself.

~~~
bronxbomber92
Maps was started while Jobs was around, so at the very least you can't accuse
Cook of that.

------
uladzislau
The writing was on the wall:

Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem?
[http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/09/29/does-apple-have-a-
sco...](http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/09/29/does-apple-have-a-scott-
forstall-problem/)

Apple Retail Leadership Tells Stores It 'Messed Up' Employee Working Hours,
Refutes Layoffs [http://www.nasdaq.com/article/apple-retail-leadership-
tells-...](http://www.nasdaq.com/article/apple-retail-leadership-tells-stores-
it-messed-up-employee-working-hours-refutes-layoffs-20120816-00774)

------
Bud
Nobody's posted this yet, so I'll give it a try.

Dear Scott,

Could you please start up NeXT again? That would really rock.

Thanks, Bud

~~~
wilfra
Forstall was the executive most like Steve Jobs within the company, so it will
be interesting to see what he does next. He got forced out, just like Steve
did. Now will he start a new company and get acquired and become the CEO down
the road?

------
panacea
Everyone's mentioning Maps/Siri, but my most recent disappointment with an
Apple product is the UI, performance and structure of Game Center for iOS.

I've never been inclined to use it before the recent release of Letterpress
which necessitates its use and it a steaming pile of you-know-what.

It's so jarring going from the lovely minimalism of the Letterpress game into
parts of Game Center to manage match/friend requests.

It's the sort of experience that's had me worried about Apple, and this is
(tentatively) good news, as I gather he was heading up the part of Apple
responsible for such products.

------
nachteilig
I'm actually surprised that they allowed John Browett to receive his first
batch of grants before they showed him the door. Didn't seem like he had long
after some of his recent communication problems.

~~~
r00fus
I'm not - it's part of the requirement to provide some renumeration (esp. in
stock) for departing executives regardless of tenure as their inside knowledge
is very dangerous in the wrong hands.

It's also a lesson to the hiring team: you know you'll be paying some decent
compensation regardless of who you hire or for how long, so learn to do your
job well and hire the right person. Ounce of prevention and all that.

------
ececconi
Everybody here talks about Ive being opposed to skeuomorphism , does anybody
have any examples of what the UI would look like under the leadership of his
design principles? I can't even imagine it.

~~~
rahoulb
Like this? <http://wthr.co/>

(although I have to say, it looks beautiful but is an awful app)

~~~
jarek
God save the design world if an app with a spinner display for non-linear,
non-rotational, non-user-controlled data and a prominent switch that maybe 5%
of the users will use more than once is the future of Apple's UI.

------
w1ntermute
Looks like he got shitcanned for the Maps fiasco.

~~~
mpweiher
Sounds more like the outcome of a long and bloody power struggle to me, though
the maps fiasco may have helped decide the outcome.

------
benguild
I'm relieved about this. Pretty much all of the missteps at Apple that I've
cared about were related to this guy. I'm confident that Ive will clear things
up soon.

------
pdknsk
Who wants to bet that Marissa called him already? Seems like the perfect fit
for the new Yahoo mobile oriented strategy, does it not? I have no clue to be
honest.

~~~
e1ven
Keep in mind he has a year transition period at Apple. After that, Apple
likely gave him a list of verboten companies as part of the severance. Google
is certainly on that list. Yahoo may or may not.

------
kristopher
While mere speculation, I do not think he is leaving over Maps directly. I
personally think there was internal tension over making sir Jony head of
leadership and direction for Human Interface and he quit over that -- also
there is the possibility that he was perhaps looking to run Apple as CEO at
some point but that does not seem to be in the cards.

------
ricardobeat
Most interesting part:

    
    
         John Browett is leaving Apple
    

So his views on retail really did not fit Apple after all.

~~~
89a
Not that interesting, anyone familiar with his work could tell you he's a bad
fit

------
jordhy
I feel very sorry for Apple. Scott was a major catalyst that made things
happen at the company.

~~~
objclxt
...but on the other hand, there's been speculation for _years_ that his
management style was very bad, and the source of frustration in the
engineering teams, as well as his friction with the industrial design team.

~~~
jarek
So he was just like Steve then?

------
kmfrk
This makes me incredibly excited for Apple. I would rather that Siri and Maps
hadn't belly-flopped the way they did, but iOS is getting really long in the
tooth, and Apple have made some seriously weird design decisions with the
platform.

------
jonknee
Scott Forstall is already rich thanks to Apple, but he lost a lot of money by
being fired. 75,000 RSUs vesting in 2013, 100,000 RSUs to vest in 2014, and
75,000 in 2016. That's a lot of dough ($151M at today's share price).

------
seannui
Well, if he truly wants to emulate Jobs he needs to have his wilderness years
outside of Apple's bosom. As the prophecy has foretold he'll return in 11
years to retake his spot as rightful CEO.

------
ececconi
I think one of the worst examples of UI design by Apple is the iCloud website.
It's just so slow and clunky. I can't believe more people aren't complaining
about it.

~~~
chj
Yes, it is slow and clunky, but better alternatives are next door. So why
complain?

~~~
ececconi
I actually like to use it for the calendar and the notes.

------
aganek
Bold action often results in great things.

Apple has always strived to couple great hardware design with great software.
Excited to see them bring the two departments closer again.

------
mwc
Interesting to see confirmation of Bob Mansfield's continued role in the
company. He'll lead a new group, "Technologies", responsible for wireless and
semis.

~~~
apike
It's unusual for Apple to hype something like this, but in that note they
mention Mansfield's semiconductor team "have ambitious plans for the future".
I doubt that simply refers to making the A7 faster and more power-efficient.

~~~
Geee
ARM on desktop, perhaps? No one has ever designed a desktop-class chip with
ARM architecture, so that's one 'ambitious' direction one could take.

~~~
watmough
Hahahaha.

So you've never heard about what the ARM was originally designed for?

<http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/Computers/A500.html>

I guess that was a while ago! And it certainly was desktop-class. It beat the
pants off a 12 MHz 286.

~~~
Geee
Ok, got it. :) Let me prepend my original statement by "Since the A500 and the
subsequent failures, ..."

------
Toddward
John Browett is leaving too - that didn't last long.

------
18pfsmt
Lots of supposition and subjectivity.

I'm pretty much clueless on this topic, but from a quick scan this seems like
pure gossip. I've learned nothing at all except for various HN opinions, and I
have trouble understanding if and/or what the substance is here.

What am I missing? Put another way. What does anyone on HN actually uniquely
know about this situation. Could someone help simplify this?

------
dm8
Looks like Maps fiasco was too much to handle. Didn't they ask their SVP of
hardware to leave when they had antennagate?

------
emehrkay
Wasnt he supposed to be the next Steve Jobs? He was noticeably missing from
the last event. It was strange that they didnt have ios updates to talk about
(that is when he gets on stage).

~~~
sjwright
My observation was that _Scott_ wanted to be the next Steve, with his
autoskeuomorphic behavior. That he spent the last 15 years working for Steve
is probably also a factor here.

I think some people assume he was being groomed for that position, but I never
sensed that.

------
stevewillows
Is there a chance that the move away from skeuomorphism and putting OSX and
IOS under one umbrella is a response to the direction Microsoft is taking with
Windows 8?

------
sk2code
I guess this is the serious blow to Apple. Many people across the board will
reconsider their position with the shares of APPL. Time to take the profit.

------
rbn
I'm expecting a move away from Skeuomorphism towards minimalism now that Jony
Ive is the head of "Human Interface"

------
Tycho
Shame. He had great stage presence at the Apple shows.

------
patfla
Is this an instance of Think Different?

------
enraged_camel
I wonder what this means for the possibility of future Apple devices having
haptic touchscreens.

edit: What was the downvote for?!

------
yzap
Sacked for Apple Maps?

------
lanna
Hooray!

------
nirvana
It wasn't always obvious that Cook would be the CEO of Apple after Jobs left.
This is the job Forstall wanted, but that Apple didn't want him for. The job
went to Cook, and so Forstall was either going to have to find a place to be
happy in Apple or he'd be on his way out.

This gives a smooth transition to the large teams under him over the next year
or so, in exchange for more vesting of his shares.

People saying this is about Maps or Siri or Skoumorphism are focusing on
relatively petty issues.

This is about how is going to be the leader of Apple. Tim Cook turned out to
not just be the interim CEO, and waiting a year for the transition is
respectful all around-- and is enough time for everyone to know what the right
direction for their lives is.

Forstall may want to do a startup-- where he'd certainly be a CEO.

------
camus
I cant wait to hear reactions from the fanboys when Cook is out : "Oh yeah ,
best opportunity ever for Apple...", Whatever Apple does is ,strangely ,always
a good decision from its followers perspective...

------
pycassa
man behind skeuomorphism in apple's ios?

I remember watching him in a keynote showing the piano app on iphone when they
announced appstore/iphone. I was blown away by that demo.. those were the days
maan..

