
Trump and Chip Makers Including Intel Seek Semiconductor Self-Sufficiency - abhi3
https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-and-chip-makers-including-intel-seek-semiconductor-self-sufficiency-11589103002
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PhantomGremlin
Article complains about "reliance on Asia" but neglects to mention a giant
elephant of a problem.

    
    
      PACKAGING
    

I had to shout it! Sorry, HN guidelines.

Intel makes chips in USA fabs, then sends them abroad, mostly to Asia, to be
packaged. Same for anyone else making chips in the USA.

I'm retired now but I highly doubt this has changed recently. It's been going
on since the 1970s if not earlier. There are probably a few chips made for the
US military that are packaged domestically. But over 99% are sent overseas.

Edit: To take it further, I bet that nowadays over 90% of everything related
to electronics manufacturing has moved overseas. It used to be that you could
fabricate PCBs domestically. You could have them stuffed with chips and
soldered domestically. But now very little volume capability exists for that
here. It's all "offshore", because MBAs decided that would be cheaper.

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KarlKemp
I kinda prefer well-balanced mutual dependency. This current wave of
sinophobia is seriously worrying. Even in the darkest days of the Cold War,
the Soviet Republic and NATO countries had significant trade relations,
providing not just economic benefits but a stabilising mechanism identical to
MAD in principle, but with far less actual MADness in a worst case.

China's ascent is going to happen. And contrary to this relentless US campaign
to escalate, I cannot even come up with what exactly the US considers China's
agression? Is all this talk of everything up to and including war seriously
proportional to the thread that is... China being chosen to build some 5G
infrastructure?

The British saw their Empire crumble after investing hundreds of thousands of
lives and evenly distributing an entire Island's worth of forest in hull-
shaped carcasses at the bottom of the world's seas. For that, they were left
with nothing but a decent long drink and three cricket teams to lose against.
Luckily, they have something not entirely unlike a deep-seated sense for
civility and took it with some humour and only minor collective psychosis.

Is the end of the American Empire going to be a Republican Id in a total
meltdown of nationalistic rage set off by this seemingly unavoidable
narcissistic injury that China's ascend represents?

The prospect of America with diminished economic and cultural power,
completely losing the optimism, openness, and sense of responsibility that
carried it through the 20th "American" century, and retaining only the brute
power of its oversized military as the only remaining source of agency is,
frankly, terrifying.

~~~
forgot_again
Respectfully, there are a great many things wrong with the opinions in this
post. I'll try to address them all with as few words as possible.

Chip self reliance is a good thing from a general geo-political standpoint,
regardless of China.

China's aggression manifests in many covert operations, mainly information
warfare.

The ruling CCP is diametrically opposed to most Western political and social
values and itself feels very threatened by democracy and personal liberty. As
such it is working very hard to destabilize the West and expand it's hard and
soft power to export its authoritarian model around the world.

The end of the American "empire" is hardly guaranteed to happen any time soon,
and while some weak willed and naive pseudo-intellectuals may be willing or
even eager to roll over and let it die, many others with clear eyes recognize
the benefits of your culture and country having power.

With power comes wealth. With power comes pride. With power comes influence.
And with enough power comes global stability, which is what the US currently
provides. Why would anyone in their right mind willingly give up such power?
No, we will do everything we can to maintain it because it absolutely has real
value that benefits all Americans.

Fundamental values, lives, wealth and influence are all at stake here. Those
who do not recognize or do not care are fools. Let us hope they never get a
hold of power.

~~~
jmeister
This comment is just “Id in a meltdown of nationalistic rage”, to use a phrase
from the parent comment.

What has China done to the US that makes you so angry? Is it just that
Americans need a punching bag to vent their anger at this moment?

~~~
forgot_again
Did you not read the comment? Saying it's "nationalistic rage" frames it as
something petty and superficial.

How is liberty vs fascism petty or superficial? It's not.

Regardless, outside of their ruling ideology their rise doesn't make me angry
any more than an athlete's strongest competition makes him angry.

There are real, tangible benefits to being on top and there's no reason to
give that up. This is a calmly calculated recognition.

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magicsmoke
Based on the article, it looks like only TSMC and Samsung can make 10nm chips
as a service for other companies, and despite also being able to make 10nm
chips Intel hasn't opened their fabs to contract work. Anyone know why this
is? In the article it looks like Intel's spokesperson said they were willing
to start offering their 10nm process as a service with fabs in the US, but I'm
wondering why Intel didn't offer a foundry service earlier.

~~~
my123
They did, see the Intel Custom Foundry history. The scheme failed when 10nm
itself failed, making Intel partners be in a bad situation and regretting
having chosen ICF in the first place.

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busymom0
I remember reading that Apple is switching to making their own chips next year
on their MacBooks too. Wonder how that would impact the chip market.

~~~
Exmoor
Switching to _manufacturing_ their own chips or _using_ their own chips in
Macs? The later has been a rumor for many years now and could happen, although
they've likely used it to leverage Intel into better pricing. Manufacturing
their own chips requires billions and billions of dollars and years of work
building a fabrication plant and would not be something they'd be able to do
under the radar.

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duxup
I'd be curious how this plays out economiclly.

How do they change the economic playing field that lead to semiconductor
production elsewhere?

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con
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~~~
AnonC
This looks very nice. But I’m concerned that I’d be left with Google cookies
after this is run.

~~~
con
I've made another one that uses Facebook. But I can't tell which is worse! ;-)

------
busymom0
Archive for anyone stuck with paywall:

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~~~
thoughtsimple
403 Forbidden. Oh well.

~~~
busymom0
Are you sure? Seems to work fine for me right now.

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WheelsAtLarge
Bringing back manufacturing to the US will be extremely hard.

1) US citizens want top dollar for their labor and the lowest price for the
product. 2 opposing forces.

2) The US has lost the experienced labor force that's needed

3) Regulations make it very expensive to start and maintain a factory.

4) The median age in the US is over 38 yrs old. Way past the education and
career-building ages.

5) The US has started to limit immigration so importing the talent will not
happen.

6) Capitalism rules in the US. And Capitalism says build it at the lowest
price possible. Which rules out the US.

7) As the US population ages, more of the country's resources will be focused
on health care and the care of the elderly and less on creating a
manufacturing workforce.

8) Robotics is not always the cheapest form of manufacturing. Building it
outside US will still have its advantages.

It's not impossible but it will take a few generations and a consistent US
policy to do it.

~~~
mydongle
It seems so unsustainable to avoid training your own people and instead
exporting these valuable skills to people in other countries which are not
guaranteed to be friendly with us forever.

~~~
WheelsAtLarge
True, but that's been the argument against outsourcing manufacturing for 40+
years. Yet, it is still being done.

I think the best the US can do, right now, is to import from countries where
it has some clout and can better control manufacturing. It's crazy to think
that a big chunk of your products are being manufactured in China, a country
that is competing against you.

~~~
Barrin92
>True, but that's been the argument against outsourcing manufacturing for 40+
years. Yet, it is still being done.

And it's generally made the world a better place. Even current conflicts don't
even remotely compare to the Cold War. Some historical perspective may be
needed but the world is better off if it engages in trade and specialisation.
Nobody gains from the US retreating into a new era of isolation.

~~~
remarkEon
Missing the /s?

The entire world now has single points of failure because of this kind of
specialization. Sure, it makes certain classes lots of money but it forces
others into poverty and when bad things happen suddenly your supply for
critical goods is cut off. To say nothing of the geopolitical consequences
here, where letting so much of high tech manufacturing accrue in one country
presents tremendous risk if anything goes sideways.

~~~
jmeister
Parent is talking about outsourcing in general.

You are talking about risk from concentrating supply chains in a single
(foreign) country.

