
Somebody please hire me before I take a job in weapon development - python_guy
Hello fellow HNers.<p>I am posting this from a throw-away account. I tried to anonymize most of the details here; I will of course give my full details to serious people who will contact me privately.<p>I'm a Python developer, and I live in a famously aggressive little country. I'm currently being offered to work in a big governmental firm responsible for weapon development for our military. Military power is a very high priority for my country, thus a lot of resources are given to these kind of companies, and thus I'm being offered very good salary and benefits for this job.<p>I don't really want to work there.
Incidentally, I'm not a pacifist, but I would really prefer to avoid working with these kind of people. Also I wouldn't want to do all the security checks and be exposed to secret military information, etc.<p>Will anyone here be interested of hiring me? I'd be interested in working as a telecommuting freelancer.<p>About myself: I'm in my twenties, I've been programming Python for a few years, and I'm the developer of two open-source projects, whose code you could inspect freely when you'll contact me privately. I have some experience with Django and I can maintain a LAMP stack. I am also interested in scientific computing.<p>Here's my anonymous contact email: anonymous.python.guy@gmail.com<p>Thanks.
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Estragon
You should hire me instead of him. I've been using python to do statistics and
machine learning in a bioinformatics context for the last 15 years. Plus, if
you don't, I'll kill this puppy. Isn't he cute? You wouldn't want to be
responsible for his death, would you?

~~~
python_guy
Your criticism is right, this is a sensationalist appeal. Do you think I
shouldn't have made it?

~~~
Estragon
Do you think my satire contains a moral judgment?

(I hear you like to answer questions with questions over there.)

~~~
python_guy
Touche. Your satire was pretty funny.

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slavak
I have a problem believing this is about Israel since:

a) Defense companies in Israel _do not_ offer "very good salary." In fact, it
is a generally accepted fact that they universally offer lower salaries than
civilian companies. This is offset somewhat by the benefits that stem from
being a large and influential enterprise as well as the inherent governmental
bureaucracy.

b) Engineers at Israeli defense firms don't tend to be particularly
militaristic or in any way "these kind of people," and I know quite a few...

~~~
kimfuh
Maybe Taiwan, Korea or Singapore.

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varjag
OK, below is my honest, if a bit blunt, opinion.

You're not a rocket scientist, your skillset as described won't make a
difference for Israel (?) military power. Either go for it and enjoy your pay,
or if you have your principles, don't go for it and try finding a boring
civilian job as all other non-rocket-scientists do . But the drama, it's not
there.

~~~
dublinclontarf
Heh, when he said an aggressive little country the first thought that came to
my mind was Georga.

~~~
paylesworth
Really? My first thought was Switzerland.

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loewenskind
I assumed it was the US and "little" was sarcastic.

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kurtosis
The standard advice I've heard is: Work for defense companies to learn the
technology, and then leave to transfer this technology toward peaceful (and
often lucrative) applications. Swords into Ploughshares.

~~~
ephermata
Speaking for the U.S. context only: once you have a security clearance, which
will become necessary at some point for defence work, it becomes difficult to
move out to non-classified work. On one hand, the pool of people with
clearances is smaller than the general labor pool, so you can have a higher
salary & benefits, therefore it's more attractive to stay at that kind of
work. On the other hand, prospective employers outside defence likely do not
have clearances and so cannot learn anything about what you did - this makes
it difficult to leverage your experience when seeking to move to a new job.

I don't work in defence. That is just what I've heard from people who do as
one of the reasons why it's hard to "rotate in, rotate out."

~~~
Kadin
You are correct (IME) in your first point, about the difficulty of moving away
from the high salary and benefits associated with cleared jobs, but not really
on the second one.

Doing secure work means you can't take any confidential information with you
when you leave, and it might slightly limit what you can talk about, but it
doesn't mean you can't say _anything_ about the work you did. You can still
talk about your role and skillset, usually about the languages and
technologies (and COTS products) used.

Many government IT projects mandate security-cleared developers because the
systems touch classified information, but that doesn't mean that the systems
_themselves_ (their existence, basic design, etc.) are classified. There's
really no difference between having a project like that on your resume, and
any other commercial-sector project that's internal use only.

If you're working or considering working on a clearance-required project, it's
not unreasonable to ask to talk with the security officer beforehand to clear
up exactly what you'll be able to put on your resume and discuss after the
fact ... and price yourself accordingly.

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azzret
Python and Django for missile control? For real?

    
    
      import sys, missile_lib
      destination = sys.argv[1]
      controller = missile_lib.Missile_control()
      controller.fire(destination)

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nearestneighbor
I'm trying to think of "famously aggressive" and "little", and all I can come
up with is one of them Koreas.

~~~
CapitalistCartr
Or Venezuela. But most likely Israel.

~~~
forinti
Venezuela aggressive?? Chavez speaks a lot, but that's about it. And it's not
really a little country either, at nearly 1 million square kilometres.

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dRother
Good move. I had a girlfriend whose father worked designing guidance systems
for rockets. He couldn't speak a word about his job to his family, and it was
apparent that his conscience struggled with the fact that his engineering
handiwork was only good for killing people.

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isamuel
I wouldn't want to hire someone who was willing to compromise his ethics
simply for a "very good salary and benefits."

~~~
biotech
I don't know the whole story, but I have known very good, moral people who
worked for companies that they didn't completely agree with ethically because
they put their _family_ or their _health_ first. Ethics isn't always so
simple. If "a very good salary and benefits" is the difference between being
very sick or getting that surgery you need, or if it's the difference between
sending your kids to a good school or a bad one.... Let's just say that I
wouldn't be so quick to judge.

~~~
skinnymuch
I completely agree with you and don't think you can just call a person 'bad'
for working at a 'bad' company. But technically speaking, a lot, if not most,
of the 'very good, moral' people you described don't leave the companies even
when they are in a more stable and comfortable situation.

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person
if someone gives you a better offer, can i have your defense job? sounds
pretty cushy to me

~~~
python_guy
It is pretty cushy, and you don't need to wait for me to abandon it. But you
must be a native of my country and a reasonably able Python programmer. If you
are, send me a mail.

~~~
dotBen
well what is your country? If this is a throw-away account I can't understand
why you can't disclose that?

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drivingmenuts
Here's a question: how do we know you haven't already been co-opted by your
military establishment?

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sac
2 things first, you sound like a german during WW2. (hold the anger) I mean
really, your saying you don't want to get paid to kill jews, but you want to
get paid well for that skill set and no one else in your market will pay you
what your 'worth 2nd /later

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melling
I've never worked in defense. Can someone explain what "these kind of people"
means?

~~~
m0nastic
I don't know exactly what the poster meant by "these people", but my own
experience having worked at a defense contractor was that the facility I was
at (which designed and made missles), all of the managers were upset that
there wasn't presently a war going on. I suspect that the past few years have
been better for morale there.

Every day they would have meetings going over global hot spots and assess
whether there was any chance that the U.S. would have to intervene, and
therefore purchase more armaments from them. This was not an objective,
collective discussion, but a pleading.

I found that at least at that particular company, by and large, "these kind of
people" were shitbags.

I will say, that contrasted with work I've done with other defense contractors
in the ensuing years, they are not all uniform.

~~~
krschultz
Strange, since most of the US big money spending is mostly unrelated to the
wars. They didn't start the F-22 when the war in Iraq broke out, the new
aircraft carriers are rolling out to replace ones that are getting old, not
ones that got sunk ... etc.

~~~
m0nastic
That's less true of "perishable" items like munitions.

Generally, the US Government has a set stockpile (which may increase or
decrease based on policy changes, but is usually static).

This company made guided missiles (very expensive, medium to long range), and
needed the existing stockpile to be depleted (which is a nice way of saying
that they needed things to be blown up).

Other divisions of the company I'm sure were working on different kinds of
projects, the contracts for which weren't as contingent on being in a
skirmish.

There's a difference between having a contract to develop and design an F-22
(which thankfully occurs before they are needed in warfare) and to actually
build replacement F-22's (such as when they are shot down).

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justin_vanw
So, in order to do the 'right' thing, we have to make you a counter offer? Is
that how this works?

Everyone! Mail me money so I don't have to enable murder!

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ohashi
Is it the UK?

~~~
jarek
Aggressive _maybe_ , but by which standards is the UK "little"?

~~~
sjf
Area? Population? It's certainly not large.

~~~
jarek
By world standards it's not large, but among its immediate neighbours it's one
of the largest countries: third by population in the EU and one of the larger
by area.

I'd think places like Belgium, Denmark, Ireland, or even Austria would get
called little much before UK, to say nothing of the smaller countries like
Iceland or Luxembourg. I don't think many people in the UK would describe it
as little either.

~~~
ImFatYoureFat
Guys, it obvious he's from the Vatican.

~~~
moolave
Of course! The particle accelerator.

But the morals? This would have to be the biggest weight on this matter.

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mkramlich
How's Israel this time of year?

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ImFatYoureFat
Don't think it's Israel, he would have already spent time in the military if
he was Israeli.

~~~
ImFatYoureFat
The down voting is really strange.

If he is Israeli, and in his mid twenties then he has already served in the
IDF, likely in a CS capacity. Also if he was Sherut Leumi, then I wouldn't
think he would apply for a military contract job in the first place.
Furthermore, its especially difficult for people with highly desirable
backgrounds like CS or engineering to get Sherut approval.

My only point was that an Israeli in their mid twenties has already served in
the military and if they have, or plan to get a degree in CS, they have served
in the military in a capacity relating to CS or engineering.

Of course it's totally possible that I'm wrong and he is from Israel.

Just out of curiosity, anyone have any explanations of the down voting? Don't
really mind, I just find it kind of bizarre.

~~~
adbge
The only explanation I can think of for you being downvoted is, well,
ignorance. Perhaps HNers are not familiar with Israel's policy of mandatory
military service and thought your remark was somehow prejudiced.

As far as small aggressive countries that _aren't_ Israel, how about Georgia,
Eritrea, Saudi Arabia, or Greece?

~~~
SkyMarshal
Was trying to figure it out too. The problem is the dual criteria:

famously aggressive + develops their own military technology.

Who is known for developing their own military technology? US, Russia, China,
Britain, France, Germany, Sweden, Israel, North Korea, Iran, Iraq (the last
two only if WMD accusations are true)...?

Pretty much everyone else buys their military technology from China, Russia,
US, France, or Israel, be it AK47s, F15s, or silkworm and exocet missiles.

So, which among the countries that manufacture military hardware are famously
aggressive? Well, lately that's pretty much the US and Israel. Maybe Russia
with the Chechen and Georgian thing, and maybe China with Tibet and threats
vs. Taiwan. North Korea, but is anyone there actually allowed to learn English
much less programming?

'Little' I also took to be diminutive, not literal.

~~~
someperson
I'm fairly certain Pakistan also develops its military hardware in house, it
is a a large weapon exporter after all.

~~~
ImFatYoureFat
see those were my two guesses: Taiwan or Pakistan.

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lowglow
Hire me. I have no morals.

