
Holding Your Breath in India - fractalb
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/31/opinion/sunday/holding-your-breath-in-india.html
======
hakcermani
Everything Gardiner is saying is true :-( As an indian and also an immigrant
here in the US, i can only be ashamed. it is hard to defend India when such
simple things taken for granted everywhere else is a luxury. India is a
mystery. How do things even work? (Try an evening commute in a suburban train
in Mumbai) How can people (that too 1.2 B) even live in such conditions ? (Are
the conditions because of the 1.2B?). But the country has a strange
resilience. It is a country steeped in tradition on one side and trying hard
to catch up with the rest of the world in modernization on the other. There
are sparks of brilliance everywhere. Like lotus in a mucky pond.
([http://www.thebetterindia.com/25026/gatimaan-
express-10-inte...](http://www.thebetterindia.com/25026/gatimaan-
express-10-interesting-facts-about-indias-fastest-train/)). My only wish is a
little less corruption, and basic amenities for all within 5 years. The
problem is huge, and unlike software humanity cannot be just rewritten from
scratch :-(

~~~
sremani
Corruption is not the entire problem. The open defecation rates of India beat
Sub-Saharan Africa handily an estimated 60-70% of world's open defecation is
in India. I mean, come on, we should stop taking the cover of corruption and
colonialism for every problem that persists.

~~~
kamaal
>>Corruption is not the entire problem.

Or may be it is. At least for our population scale. How and why do you think
rules and regulations get flouted? Plus I don't tend to restrict corruption to
what government officials do. The business(of all sizes) who don't pay a penny
in taxes, Common public who break every single law knowing that they can buy
their way out, people/managers in private companies blatantly indulging in
linguistic, regional and religious politics quelling whatever little is left
of meritocracy are all equally guilty.

>>I mean, come on, we should stop taking the cover of corruption and
colonialism for every problem that persists.

Colonialism probably damaged India in ways which can't even be repaired now.
To tell that it doesn't have any impact on how things are running now is very
naive.

~~~
rayiner
Colonialism was a huge blessing to the subcontinent. Turned the clock forward
in terms of culture and institutions at least a hundred years.

~~~
smtddr
I don't even know what to say about this comment.

The definition of colonialism, according to Google: _" noun: colonialism ---
the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over
another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically."_
[http://i.imgur.com/3wQbW11.png](http://i.imgur.com/3wQbW11.png)

A blessing you say? Until now I didn't even know anyone considered colonialism
much different from an invasion. The definition that I just posted seems to
fit "invasion" pretty well imho. And how do you even move a culture forward?
It sounds like you're implying that some cultures are better than others.
Please tell me you're not saying that. Please tell me there's some other
definition of colonialism being used in this thread.

~~~
chlodwig
There are really three types of colonialism.

Type 1 is where is the colonizers set up new outposts in more-or-less
unoccupied land. This happened in Hong Kong and Calcutta. This is usually
benign for the host country.

Type 2 is where the colonizers steal the land from the natives and occupy it
themselves. This happened in the United States and to some extent in Ireland.
This type of colonialism is usually terrible for the natives.

Type 3 is where the colonizers install themselves as a ruling caste, but
otherwise let the natives be. They extract taxes and provide governance in
return. This was the case in India. It was also the case when the Normans
invaded England, the Spanish invaded Mexico, or the British took over India.

Type 3 often works out better for the natives, because the existing regime had
to be pretty backward and corrupt in order to fall to a small band of
foreigners. The foreigners install themselves as competent stationary bandits
and the country at least enjoys some stability and rule of law.

 _And how do you even move a culture forward? It sounds like you 're implying
that some cultures are better than others. Please tell me you're not saying
that._

So you're saying Aztec culture wasn't worse than 19th century British culture?
Cultures that had human sacrifice are equal to cultures that perfected the
steam engine and flush toilets? Please tell me you are not that willfully
ignorant.

It should be blindingly obvious that certain elements of culture are worse
than others, unless you are willing to argue that religions with human
sacrifice are just as good as religions without human sacrifice, or that
funerals with Sati are just as good as funerals without Sati. If certain
elements of culture are better or worse, than it would be a miracle if all
cultures exactly balanced out so that the positive elements and negative
elements were equal, thus making all cultures equal to each other.

~~~
reagency
Type 3 covers the Nazi occupation of France, so...

~~~
Dylan16807
So what? Please make your point, because I can't guess it.

Yes, Nazis are bad, and war is bad.

But if you put the German government in charge of France and look at the long-
term effects that would have? Not a terrible thing.

Also you're ignoring "small band". France could not have fallen to a small
number of troops. An area without a strong government could.

------
suprgeek
Yes the air in Delhi is a Disaster. The pollution & uncontrolled trash burning
accompanied by a foggy climate with extreme heat/cold seasons all contribute.
It is a very real and complex problem and the people & the Govt. of India &
Delhi have not done nearly enough to tackle this.

None of this is a secret. People have been screaming about this for the past
innumerable years, it is featured in the frickin Wiki about Delhi.

But you gotta wonder about the priorities of the author. He brought a sick
asthmatic child to a City known for its horrible air quality. What the f* was
he thinking?

Then he writes a rambling article decrying the open defecation & air quality
(mixing two tangentially related issues) after his son has an entirely
predictable attack. A bad parent and a worse author, playing off the sympathy
factor to decry known evils after putting his child in this situation himself.

~~~
ktr
Couldn't agree more. I got to the end of the article thinking "why did you
stay after the first series of episodes?". I never realized how bad it was
there and I am sad for all those impacted by it - especially the little ones.

------
zapdrive
So much for Modi's "Clean India" campaign. I used to think illiteracy is the
root cause for all the evils in India. But now I guess corruption is. And the
people are somehow responsible. Most Indians are overly religious. They are so
deeply involved in visiting temples & godmen, praying etc., that they do not
think about anything else. They vote on religious lines. I lived in Mumbai for
a month. Every apartment in my 15 story apartment building had a picture of a
god/godess, or other religious symbols on the front door. I guess the people
are relying too much on "god" to set everything right. And the politicians are
taking advantage of this fact.

~~~
discardorama
> So much for Modi's "Clean India" campaign.

Really. You expect a nation of 1.2B people to change overnight (it's been a
year since Modi got elected).

The task is gargantuan; it won't happen in a year or even a decade.

Here's a simple example: the Cuyahoga river in Ohio _caught fire_ because of
pollution several times over a period of 100 years before someone decided to
do something; and even then, it took decades to clean it up:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyahoga_River](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyahoga_River)
This is in America, a land with so much wealth and so many resources.

~~~
xxpor
Here's the difference though: We passed the Clean Water Act, and stuff got
done. Before that, as far as I know, nothing really making illegal to pollute
the waters. Of course there is corruption and the like in the US, but nothing
like India. It's not like the problem was people defecating in the Cuyahoga,
it was purely an industrial problem.

~~~
reagency
Industrial pollution is less dirty than residential pollution?

~~~
Dylan16807
Industrial pollution is much more easily controlled, and in small amounts has
less impact on residents.

------
sremani
#Culture - Culture makes societies and societies make cities. No really, all
you have to do is walk down Newark St (aka Indian Street) in Jersey City or
Little India in Singapore, yes Singapore, we have some how found a way to
screw one of the world's cleanest city. The bright spot is, there is a
movement called "Ugly Indian", in which enlightened Indians have acknowledged
their "Culture" and working on the remedy.

[http://theuglyindian.com/](http://theuglyindian.com/)

If you live in India join this movement. If you live outside of India, please
do not mess public spaces esp. the ones with high density of Indian
businesses.

(note: I am an Indian living in US).

~~~
product50
Don't generalize. Looks as if you have a especial hatred for fellow Indians
which is coming out so evidently in your threads.

Now, let us go over your examples. Both of the areas you cited have
traditionally been inhabited by not-so-well-to-do Indians which could be one
of the reasons why they aren't well maintained. Little India in Singapore was
originally inhabited by Indian immigrants - many of whom were very poor and
uneducated and the area generally took its cue from there. Newark St in Jersey
City, too, has largely been inhabited by poor early immigrant Indians (such as
those who drive taxis in NYC) and Indians who come onsite (and thus are in
heavy savings mode).

To give a counter to your example why don't you visit Sunnyvale and Fremont on
the west coast which are heavily populated by the Indian community. Given how
you have generalized, those areas should be dumps. The difference here is that
the Indians who tend to live here are much more affluent and educated.

The difference here is between affluent and poor as well as educated and not.
Such differences exist even within the white or black communities in the US.

~~~
sremani
You sure do rush to conclusion, do not mistake a harsh tone for hatred. So why
is Hillcrest in Houston, TX not so appealing. You only want me to account
Cities with average house price is about 500K+ ? Sure, while at it, why dont
we not take Beverly Hills, CA as a sample to discuss crime in California. My
point is, go to a place where there are a group of Indian business and you can
see the contrast. If you are happy and satisfied, all the power to you.

------
frozenport
I am shocked that the author couldn't find a place for her kid to live state
side. For example, live with grandparents, maybe a boarding school. Now your
kid has permanent lung damage, thanks Mom and Dad.

~~~
MicroBerto
Yeah, imagine Bram re-reading this article when he's a brittle 25-year-old
whose health is failing while his peers are in their physical primes. Because
they wanted to write for a newspaper column.

I feel bad for all of the children involved, but I feel _extra_ bad for the
ones who shouldn't have been in harms way in the first place, yet get thrown
straight into it by will of their selfish and narcissistic parents.

~~~
anigbrowl
Too right. I had bad asthma as a child and although I don't think I ever had
an episode as catastrophic as decribed in this article there's definitely a
long-term health deficit that's carried forward.

------
eveningcoffee
"Several medical ethicists said it would be impossible to get approval for a
clinical trial to send a group of children to Delhi to monitor their health."

So what about sending children from Delhi into another places and then
comparing them with children that stay in Delhi?

~~~
anigbrowl
Or performing tests with livestock (eg pigs), whose lung function could
probably be measured non-invasively, and who could be ethically slaughtered
and autopsied whereas people obviously couldn't. Animals aren't the same as
humans but when the problem is particulate matter and broad-spectrum toxins as
described in this article I rather doubt the biological differences would
invalidate the observations the way it might if you were studying digestion.

~~~
ghshephard
There is a great deal of experience using animals to model allergic airway
disease.
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831565/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831565/)

Thankfully, mice are good models, and I would hope that there are no ethical
issues associated with relocating mice to Delhi.

------
revelation
_We nearly left two years ago, after Bram’s first hospitalization. Even after
his breathing stabilized, tests showed that he had lost half his lung
function. On our doctor’s advice, we placed him on routine steroid therapy and
decided that as long as his breathing did not worsen again, we could stay in
Delhi._

So we fixed the symptoms, surely it won't happen again? Really questioning the
logic here.

~~~
discardorama
Agreed. I'd get the hell outta dodge at the first sign of trouble for my
child. Steroid therapy -vs- clean air?!?! No comparison: clean air wins every
time!

------
samuraig
Am I the only one who finds it reprehensible for the author to knowingly
expose his child to the pollution and disease of Delhi, for his own ambition?

~~~
ars
I found it troubling as well - but do you personally live in the absolutely
best place in the entire world to live? The least pollution, the least crime,
the highest life expectancy?

Or do you accept someplace not as good?

Sometimes things seem "good enough".

------
noipv4
Delhi's air is a disaster. It's immediately apparent just before landing.
After leaving the terminal one can literally see and smell the dirty smog,
especially in winters.

Air pollution's quite bad in Inland Empire, California as well (Riverside, San
Bernardino, etc). One can see the air that they breathe.

------
meric
Delhi air worse than Beijing air.
[http://www.hindustantimes.com/newdelhi/toxic-capitals-
delhi-...](http://www.hindustantimes.com/newdelhi/toxic-capitals-delhi-vs-
beijing-air-in-one-chart/article1-1339725.aspx)

------
tptacek
What are the causes of air pollution in Delhi? It makes sense that trash
burning would contribute, but to see pollution numbers worse than Beijing, one
assumes there has to be some industrial process behind it. 75% of India's
power comes from coal; is that the issue?

~~~
zapdrive
Industrial and vehicular pollution are the other two main contributors.

------
calvinbhai
This, written by an expat, who lived in an AC home, travelled in an AC car,
and probably worked had leisure activities mostly in an AC environment.

So, how would a common Indian citizen feel in Delhi? I don't know. But based
on my few days of travel to Delhi, I feel, this article is quite alarmist.

Most Indian cities are not ideal places for anyone with lung problems, and
it'd certainly exacerbate one's symptoms trying to live in a city.

I wish Gardiner Harris could give a common man perspective instead of a highly
biased one. But, him being a persistent India hater (more specifically,
writing anything that helps show the current government in a bad light), I'm
not surprised to read this.

~~~
moultano
> _But based on my few days of travel to Delhi, I feel, this article is quite
> alarmist._

It seems strange to discount his experience living there based on your
experience of a few days there. My experience of Delhi is that the visibility
often doesn't exceed 200ft, and the smell of the smog hits you as soon as the
airport doors open. I don't spend more than a few days a year there though, so
I'm neither inclined to write articles like this, nor to criticize them.

> _But, him being a persistent India hater_

He likes India enough to travel to the other side of the world to live there,
and subject his children to significant health risks. This tendency to brand
anyone pointing out obvious issues as an "india hater" or a "hinduphobe" is
one the scariest things about India's political climate today, and I hope it
fizzles out before it turns really nasty.

------
jtchang
Did India ever try to implement a one child policy like in China? It may seem
drastic but a lot of the conditions they are experiencing are a result of
overpopulation coupled with poor infrastructure. The poor infrastructure is a
direct result of the endemic corruption in the government resulting in reduced
taxes and failure to forge ahead with much needed public works projects.

~~~
bad_user
There is a direct relationship between quality of life and birth rate. The
poorer a population, the higher the birth rate. In Europe the birth rate has
been on a decline and the population is aging.

The one child policy in China has had negative social effects. For example
many families sought to have boys, leading to a very skewed sex ratio and a
high infanticide rate.

We can also say that such policies are a human rights violation, are treating
a symptom instead of the disease and are doing more harm than good.

------
bane
I spent some time in Cairo, a city so clogged with dirty, filthy air that
first time visitors often come down with respiratory infections.

The locals I interacted with knew about the terrible air quality, but also
mentioned that the city was popular with Indians, many of whom came to enjoy
the "cleaner" air.

I've never been to India, but this comparison has stuck with me.

------
codelion
Air pollution is a big problem in New Delhi. I wrote about it almost 2 years
ago when looking at the data and comparing it with Beijing -
[http://asankhaya.blogspot.sg/2013/06/air-pollution-in-new-
de...](http://asankhaya.blogspot.sg/2013/06/air-pollution-in-new-delhi.html)

------
nitishmd
How is pollution in Bangalore?

~~~
shawn-butler
National Air Quality Index, Central Pollution Control Board.

[http://aqi.iitk.ac.in:9000](http://aqi.iitk.ac.in:9000)

If you can trust the sensor readings, that is.

~~~
trendroid
Bangalore seems one of the safest. Astonishing how troublesome some
residential places in Delhi are than some others in the same city.

------
4684499
Wow, so many self loathing Indians here.

~~~
modarts
Have you been to India? You'd understand pretty quickly where that loathing
comes from.

------
archlight
people will say India is largest democracy on this planet. all the things you
see are temporary and will resolve itself because this political system has
been working well in many places. I will then ask, well, when this is gonna
happen?

~~~
known
Feudalism + Voting != Democracy

[http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/its-all-in-the-
family/...](http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/its-all-in-the-
family/article6095545.ece)

------
littletimmy
I find it hard to believe that the author could not escape pollution.

The standard thing to do is to get an apartment in the tallest building you
can find, and then use an air filtration system. Plus, every Indian city has a
few neighborhoods where the rich live. These are normally clean.

------
nrao123
Before we read too much into the NYT Journalist's article, here is another
view:

 _For an article that talks in excruciating detail of the cataclysmic effect
Delhi’s air has had on the health of the author’s child—and the ethical
dilemma faced by expats, whether they should risk raising their loved ones in
this godforsaken metropolis—for all those morbid adjectives and gut-wrenching,
bile-inducing descriptions, Harris quotes but a single scientific study.

“Delhi, we discovered,” he writes, “is quietly suffering from a dire
paediatric respiratory crisis, with a recent study showing that nearly half of
the city’s 4.4 million schoolchildren have irreversible lung damage from the
poisonous air.”

Single it may be, a citation is still a citation. Except that here it is in
the form of an article written in The Indian Express, and worse, the study it
quotes is born out of data that was collected between 2002 and 2005. Yes, more
than 10 years ago. Discounting the fact that Harris insists on calling it “a
recent study”; discounting also the fact that The Indian Express blunders with
their subheading—“Just under half of the 44 lakh schoolchildren studied…” it
says, while in reality only 11,628 schoolchildren were studied and the results
of the survey extrapolated—the cited report is as comprehensive as one can
get.

The study points to the harmful effect Delhi’s air had on the health of 11,628
schoolchildren between 2002-2005: “In lung tests conducted on 5,718 students,
43.5% suffered from “poor or restrictive lungs”; about 15% of the children
surveyed complained of frequent eye irritation, 27.4% of frequent headache,
11.2% of nausea, 7.2% of palpitation and 12.9% of fatigue.” But it is more
nuanced than that. The study surveyed children from 36 schools, six of which
were situated on Delhi’s main roads that are notoriously choked with traffic
all through the day, with one, Lakshmi Public School—that presented one-tenth
of the children surveyed—located near one of Delhi’s biggest bottlenecks:
Vikas Marg intersection. It is also worth noting that in 2002, neither Delhi’s
fleet of 6,000 rickety diesel buses had been phased out despite Supreme Court
orders, nor had most of the 25,000 odd auto rickshaws converted to compressed
natural gas, or CNG. In the age group of six to eight—the same as Harris’
son—the prevalence of current asthma in Delhi’s children was found to be
marginally higher: 2.5% compared to 2% in the control group. Prevalence of
current asthma shot up in children belonging to large-sized families and
families with poor socioeconomic background (5.1% for a family size greater
than six).

The study found a strong positive association between PM10 and eye irritation,
but not with asthma or headache. (PM10, or Particulate Matter of size 10
microns, and PM2.5, or Particulate Matter with size equal to or less than 2.5
microns, are the two major determinants of air pollution. It is now an
accepted scientific fact that prevalence of PM2.5—measured in µg/m3—is more
dangerous than PM10 as it settles deep inside the lungs). About 27% of Delhi’s
children studied were exposed to cigarette smoke at home (control 28%) and,
crucially, the study found that a child’s BMI, or body mass index, has a
profound influence on his lung function._

[http://qz.com/420275/about-that-new-york-times-story-on-
delh...](http://qz.com/420275/about-that-new-york-times-story-on-delhis-
unbreathable-air/)

~~~
enupten
Wow, Quartz defending a fellow Hinduphobe's views! Man something has gone
awfully wrong with the Monsoons.

~~~
reagency
What does smog have to do with Hinduphobia?

------
elektromekatron
_We nearly left two years ago, after Bram’s first hospitalization. Even after
his breathing stabilized, tests showed that he had lost half his lung
function. On our doctor’s advice, we placed him on routine steroid therapy and
decided that as long as his breathing did not worsen again, we could stay in
Delhi._

I hope Bram grows up to be understanding. Reading this article, I hope Bram
grows up.

------
pinkskip
Did you guys ever flew over India... you'll know how bad the haze and smog is
O.0

------
lake99
Anand Ranganathan wrote a good response to this article [1]. The TL;DR of it
all was that the NTY article is too alarmist, and cites scant and old data,
and that India still needs to needs to conduct more research on this issue.

Edit: for bonus points, read the comments below, and you'll see why the
problem is unlikely to be fixed.

[1] [http://www.newslaundry.com/2015/06/03/hold-your-breath-
and-c...](http://www.newslaundry.com/2015/06/03/hold-your-breath-and-cut-the-
hyperbole-mr-new-york-times-reporter/)

~~~
addicted
How is that a good response? His argument basically is that an article in a
general-news newspaper is not meeting the same standards as a peer reviewed
paper?

Well, duh.

Or him dismissing the study Harris does mention because it was conducted 10
years ago? Never mind that since Delhi's pollution has only gotten a lot worse
since then, the research probably UNDERSTATES the negative effects of Delhi's
pollution.

And anyways, at the end he basically eviscerates his own response, by
rebranding his article as not dismissing Harris's concern, but rather as a
complaint against the lack of data India is collecting. I guess even he
realized he really wasn't negating anything Harris was saying, and if anything
was providing evidence that would suggest that Harris may even be understating
the issue.

~~~
lake99
> His argument basically is that an article in a general-news newspaper is not
> meeting the same standards as a peer reviewed paper?

Are you assuming that not meeting the standards of peer reviewed journals
means not meeting good journalistic standards either? In any case, Anand
Ranganathan has written for peer reviewed journals[1], and he has written for
this general-news outlet [2]. He's usually very good at knowing where to draw
the line with citations and details.

> And anyways, at the end he basically eviscerates his own response

He does no such thing. His main point is up there, under the title, "For an
article that talks in excruciating detail of the cataclysmic effect of Delhi’s
air, Harris Gardiner quotes but a single scientific study."

[1] [http://www.icgeb.org/anand-ranganathan-
lab.html](http://www.icgeb.org/anand-ranganathan-lab.html)

[2] [http://www.newslaundry.com/author/anand-
ranganathan/](http://www.newslaundry.com/author/anand-ranganathan/)

~~~
moultano
And yet, for all that bluster, he seems not to disagree with any of the
conclusions.

