
How work kills us - kangman
https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/18/how-work-kills-us
======
some_account
>> In the US, employment status and your employer determine your access to
health-care

I have spotted the problem.

As usual, America wins the absurdity trophy.

~~~
expertentipp
Isn’t it case in most of the world, including many EU countries? Please don’t
bring up the “free” healthcare, unviersal healthcare can really mistreat one
for whom contributions are not paid.

~~~
jmngomes
It's not the case at all in most, if not all, EU countries.

You have access to healthcare for small fees, and you'll generally get better
care than in the private sector; you'll just have to wait longer if it's not
urgent.

I know for a fact that in at least two EU capitals private hospitals often
forward patients they are unable to handle (e.g. complicated births) to public
hospitals, who are more skilled and experienced.

~~~
sudshekhar
> private hospitals often forward patients they are unable to handle (e.g.
> complicated births) to public hospitals, who are more skilled and
> experienced.

In India, this happens simply because private hospitals don't want mortalities
on their hands. Complicated cases often mean higher chances of things going
wrong. Best let the public hospitals handle it.

------
ryanmercer
>Second, employers affect the stress-inducing conditions of work: work-family
conflict, long work hours, absence of control over one’s work environment, and
economic insecurity. Stress makes people sick both directly and by inducing
unhealthy individual behaviours such as smoking, drinking, and overeating.

Not just stress, I simply hate my job. I'm stuck here, for 12 years now.

"so get another job Ryan" bahahahaha you're funny.

I have no degree, in the past month I was flat out rejected within 24 hours of
applying to two jobs for not having a 4 year degree in ANYTHING.

I have a personal bankruptcy which will prevent most employers from hiring me,
in fact last year I took a remote job and a few days in discovered I couldn't
log in... no one would return my emails... some time later I get an email
saying if I don't return the laptop immediately I will be billed for it, I
said fine send me a label 'we did to your email' the email address you blocked
me from? 'oh'. Apparently my bankruptcy came up in the background they did
AFTER hiring me, at no point did they ask me about my financial background, if
I'd had a bankruptcy, or even if I had a criminal record... they waited until
after training me and starting work, fortunately I hadn't quit my current job
yet or I'd have been screwed.

Yesterday, after 3 video interviews spanning 21 days, I was rejected for
entry-level customer service remote work and was told "keep honing your
skills. Maybe find a relevant side project or a local company to dip your toes
deeper into a technology company".

So I hate my job and no one else wants to even take a chance on me because I
lack a degree, have a personal bankruptcy from 6 and a half years ago and have
been in a niche job for 12 years.

I legitimately wake up some days thinking "shit, why didn't I die in my sleep"
because I have no future, each year I'm at this job I hate my life more. I
dread doing ANYTHING most days now because it's "I can't really afford this"
or "I just want to vegetate" or "what the hell happens if I have an unplanned
expense of more than a few hundred bucks" or "what if mom has more issues". I
get even more pigeonholed into being stuck at this job because it doesn't
translate to anything else. Add to that I have a disabled parent I help
support and my whopping 32k gross income doesn't even allow me to save for
retirement.

Awesome. SERENITY NOW!

THIS is how work is killing me. I'm sure that stress, dread and worry are
doing wonders for my long-term health.

~~~
mrweasel
Do you know why a personal bankruptcy prevents you from being hired? That
seems very weird, it should be completely separate from your work and can't in
anyway harm your employer.

~~~
ryanmercer
In the case of that company, they worked with finances and it makes me a
'risk'. Apparently exercising protection that dates back to antiquity makes
you undesirable.

My bankruptcy also prevents me from ever having a security clearance again as
I'm considered a security risk (blackmail, my mom worked at DoD before she had
to retire via disability and one of her co-workers got fired when her debt
shot up post divorce and it caused her clearance to get yanked).

Nolo has an ok article about it covering both the security clearance and the
issue I had [https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/will-bankruptcy-
affe...](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/will-bankruptcy-affect-my-
job-future-employment.html)

>Private employers, however, aren’t constrained by a similar rule, and some
people find that having a bankruptcy in their past comes back to haunt
them—mainly when applying for jobs that require them to deal with money
(bookkeeping, accounting, payroll, and so on).

If you go look at a lot of traditional job applications when they are asking
about prior military experience and criminal history they also usually ask
something along the lines of "have you ever declared bankruptcy". A bankruptcy
effectively makes you a 2nd class citizen in the eyes of many companies...
which is funny because a quick google search shows me a little less than 1% of
the US population files bankruptcy annually which means you have a
statistically significant percentage of the population walking around with
bankruptcies on their record, the only people that have it worse are those
with criminal convictions (about 1 in 3 adults, shockingly) so I guess I'm
somewhat lucky anyway.

~~~
pc86
> _Apparently exercising protection that dates back to antiquity makes you
> undesirable._

I mean it's easy to categorize it this way but I think you're ignoring the
actual risks for the company. Yes, bankruptcy is a completely legal and
typically very useful legal mechanism for restructuring. There's nothing
ethically or morally wrong with bankruptcy or even having multiple ones in
your history depending on the circumstances.

But _more often than not_ , it shows an inability to manage ones finances and
staying within a reasonable band of spending. With few exceptions,
bankruptcies are typically avoidable. To quote the word risk in the manner you
did diminishes the real fact that you had a finance job and had recently shown
that you unable to control your personal finances.

With the litigious nature of the US, especially within the confines of
employment law, it's safer for a company in that sector to outright ban
employees with major financial issues than to investigate the root causes and
make case-by-case judgments on whether a given bankruptcy was "okay."

> _My bankruptcy also prevents me from ever having a security clearance again
> as I 'm considered a security risk (blackmail..._

This is an accurate and very reasonable concern. It's the whole reason why
applicants for every sensitive job from local part-time police officer to CIA
agent have their personal finances investigated. If someone has 1.5x their
yearly salary in high interest debt it's going to be _much_ easier for a
malicious actor to control them.

~~~
falcolas
> it shows an inability to manage ones finances and staying within a
> reasonable band of spending

In a world^w country where being sick can put you in complete and utter
financial ruin, or where buying a house you can make payments on but whose
value drops precipitously resulting in a seizure of the house, I call
bullshit.

There's many, many reasons in our world today that you might need to declare
bankruptcy, and being unable to manage your finances is only one.

------
cjohansson
Being unemployed might kill us even more. I'm not sure I understand the
argument here.

In Finnish there is a idiom_ "People have died at home as well" that captures
this idea that doing stuff away from home is not necessary less safe than
being at home - you can die at home as well.

~~~
maxerickson
The argument is that companies do arbitrary things that are both harmful to
the health of employees and also harmful to the profitability of the
companies.

So the idea is that companies (and society) can actually make more money by
doing things that are less impactful on employee health and that they should
do them.

~~~
cjohansson
That sounds like a good argument that nobody would disagree with but by the
end of the day I think that being unemployed is probably worse to your health
than having a work "that kills you"

~~~
maxerickson
Well, the article isn't arguing that unemployment would be better, so that's
apparently just a tedious reaction to the title?

------
known
Rise of the rent-seeker

[https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-
america/2017/08/03/un...](https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-
america/2017/08/03/unproductive-entrepreneurship-is-increasingly-common-in-
america)

~~~
alexgmcm
The rise and rise of rentier capitalism is by far the biggest scourge in our
modern economy.

Henry George and even Adam Smith identified the problems centuries ago and yet
here we are.

------
slededit
Work may kill us, but I've also seen enough people die shortly after
retirement to be a bit suspicious. It really depends on how much your career
is a part of your identity.

~~~
the-dude
I am suspicious too, I had not thought about identity yet but linked it with
change in lifestyle. I have seen several men die 1 - 2 yrs after retirement.

I know/have known men who never really retired, they just scaled back
operations bit by bit. Like my dentist now at 71 scaled back to 3 days/week.
Why he does it? "Because I like it".

Or people who have shifted ownership of the business to their sons, but are
still around some days of the week.

------
chriselles
I had dinner last year with Professor Pfeffers along with some other GSB
Alumni.

This was just before his book went to print, but it was the topic of
conversation.

He makes some solid points.

It’s pretty shocking, but understandable, since the impact on individuals,
groups, and society isn’t like a physical workplace injury that has
cause/effect immediacy.

------
dnate
> AI and automation will almost certainly make things worse

This quote is followed by percentages of jobs being at risk.

But I find it not convincing at all. There are measures society can take to
care for the unemployed. And realistically speaking, I look forward to a
future where AI and automation makes most of our manual labor jobs obsolete.

------
reustle
There was a small documentary recently about japanese people who die alone in
their houses. One of the inverviewed people said that people have a really
hard to adjusting from the community they have at work, and the hierarchical
system, to completely on their own in a 'flat' community once they're retired.

------
js8
"The 19th-century liberals reformed the workplace and changed capitalism to
save it."

This made me laugh. Which liberals? Karl Marx?

~~~
NeedMoreTea
Many of the famous 19th century liberal industrialists that _dramatically_
improved worker conditions for the period. Remarkably different to the
attitudes of companies and directors today. For instance...

William Lever, founder of Lever Brothers (now Unilever) famously created Port
Sunlight village to house workers and ensure a healthy and happy workforce.

He personally led the planning and building of the village. Hundreds of houses
(beautiful houses in a lovely setting, even today) were built. Along with
those the village had a free hospital, schools, a concert hall, open air
swimming pool, church, and an art gallery (and bought art to put in it). He
also introduced welfare and free education for workers and their families.

There were many others. Modern day executives could learn a lot.

------
mapcars
Let me tell you the secret - life as a process is killing you every moment.
One can not exist without another. Jobs is just something we chose to spent
our short time on, as well as few other things.

~~~
some_account
We _choose_ to spend our time working?

Only because there is no other reasonable option.

~~~
v_lisivka
Unless you are slave or prisoner, yes, we choose to spend our time working or
non-working.

~~~
noja
Which universe do you live in?

