
Ask HN: How do I ask for a salary increase? - freakwit
I know that it is un-HN-like to be "working for the man".  But at some point, most of us will have been.  I'm relatively new to the workforce, below median salary and feel like I'm doing an above average job.<p>Have you ever asked for a raise and, if so, how did you get it?
======
djb_hackernews
I asked to meet with my boss, we set up a meeting. I walked in and asked if my
salary was up for negotiation. We had a short discussion where basically he
wanted to know if I was unhappy or had already started looking for a job. I
was quite pleased with my job and hadn't started to look (and probably
wouldn't have if I didn't get myself a raise, but don't tell my old boss
that). He then asked me what I think my salary should be. I told him. He said
that probably wasn't going to happen (It was like an 18% raise) but he'd talk
with his partners (He was the CTO/founder). A few days later they came back
with like 15%. I told them I appreciate the effort but the number I gave
wasn't really a starting point for negotiation and I still think I deserve
what I asked for. I told him I wouldn't turn it down, but those are my
feelings. A few days later the CEO met with me and basically did the same
thing to make sure I wasn't unhappy about anything. He then gave me what I
asked for and everything was good.

I wouldn't start sending out resumes and interviewing, seems like a lot of
hassle when you haven't even talked to them yet.

~~~
maukdaddy
If you really like the job I don't think pushing for the extra 3% is worth it.
Obviously you got it, but 15% is pretty generous and asking for 3% more sorta
feels like a shakedown.

~~~
lucisferre
Really? I think being honest with your employers is as valuable to them as it
is for you. If you can't do that you certainly don't deserve to complain about
what you get, or how you are treated.

~~~
djb_hackernews
Exactly. The place was awesome and there were no egos or politics in the
office, things like this were straight business. I was honest with them and
they were honest with me. I didn't say "somewhere around $X" I had a specific
figure for a reason.

I didn't throw a tantrum or threat to quit over 3% (I think thats shady and
wouldn't have quit anyway). I accepted the offer, thanked them, and told them
how I felt.

~~~
eru
Could you tell about the nature of the reasons that made you ask for 18% as
opposed to say 19% or 17%?

~~~
djb_hackernews
It was just a round number and that's the way percents worked out. I mean, it
was more like 18.43%, but for the sake of brevity...

The actual number I gave took into account current market rates, my job
requirements, responsibilities and how I stacked up against other developers
in the company.

~~~
eru
Thanks!

------
yummyfajitas
It's actually very simple. So simple, in fact, that I'm surprised when people
don't realize how to do it. But I've noticed that many people with greater
social awareness than me feel there should be more to the process. Apart from
being polite during the conversation, there isn't.

Step 1: send out a few feelers, try to find out your market worth. Call this
$X.

If $X <= $YOUR_PAY + 3% (margin of error), STOP. You are not above the median
and you do not deserve a raise. (Most people think they are above average.
Almost 50% of them are wrong.)

Step 2: start interviewing. Ideally get an offer above your pay (but not
necessarily as large as $X).

Step 3: have a private conversation with your boss. Tell him you'd like more
money, and you feel you deserve at least $X.

If he gives you the raise, declare victory and decline your external offer
(unless you like it better). If he refuses or gives you a raise that is
insufficient, either a) point out your external offer or b) give 2 weeks
notice and accept your external offer.

~~~
wheaties
One critique, if you explore leaving your company don't use it as a bargaining
chip. That raise your boss offers you is only to buy him enough time to find
your replacement. You will not be viewed in the same light or with the same
dedication to the "team," justified or not.

~~~
GavinB
This may be true for some bosses, but it's not a good general rule. You often
don't hear about it, getting an outside offer and a raise happens all the
time, and within a month it's pretty much forgotten.

If you present it by saying "I really love it here and want to stay, but the
compensation being offered here is really good," then your boss should be
fine. If your boss can't handle a business negotiation, then you should be
looking to get out anyway.

Bottom line: it's a market, and you have to negotiate. Once the papers are
signed, things usually go back to normal.

~~~
sigstoat
"it's a market" and "you have to negotiate" can't be stressed enough.

hell, the simple fact that you can negotiate should be stressed more.

~~~
omouse
you know what else should be stressed? collective bargaining..it helps
sometimes when your fellow coworkers band together to get a raise or to make
the work environment better.

~~~
eru
Do you have experience with collective bargaining?

As far as I can tell lots of hackers abhor it.

~~~
omouse
They abhor it but they may never have tried it. A lot of other workers have
collectively bargained and received higher pay and other non-pay benefits.

Also, it's not like you have to form a union or anything. Just collectively
bargain for a raise or whatever this one time.

~~~
eru
Has there ever been a controlled study about whether collective bargaining
leads to higher wages in the long run? (Excluding effects like lobbying for
restrictions on entering the market.)

From what I know, I can't rule out that collective bargaining for higher wage
is like advancing the tide with a bucket.

------
webwright
The "new to the workforce" thing raises a flag for me. It can create a LOT of
discontent to give a new guy a raise for performance reasons. At many
companies, raises are due to length of tenure (sad, but true). Prepare to be
told, "But you've only been here for a year. It'd be bad if we gave you a
raise."

I don't think you should shop around, but you do need to understand market
rate. Have a casual conversation (coffee?) with your boss (say that you'd like
to talk about how your compensation will evolve as you continue to work for
the company) and ask them a few questions.

1) Where does the company feel it should pay folks? Do they like to pay a
little above market rate to encourage retention, at market rate to be
competitive, or... (don't finish the sentence) (almost everyone will say at
market rate)

2) Does performance effect that? If an employee is top notch among his peers,
should that effect his pay?

3) Where would you place me among my peers and could you give me some advice
about how I could excel even further?

The big Q: Given that we agree that I'm in the top n%, do you feel like my
compensation is appropriate? My research has indicated that an average salary
for a person of my level is X (might be worth padding a touch for anchoring
purposes).

NEVER give the indication that you're shopping. There are plenty of places to
research salary without doing interviews. Most managers know that once people
start interviewing, there's no point in trying too hard to keep the person.
Stress that you really like your job and you see a long/bright future at the
company.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_At many companies, raises are due to length of tenure (sad, but true).
Prepare to be told, "But you've only been here for a year. It'd be bad if we
gave you a raise."_

If a company wants to buy tenure and you want to sell performance, it's a bad
fit. Find someone wanting to buy what you are selling and do business with
them.

If the language section of your resume lists Java, J2EE and Java 1.6, you
should stick around. You'll never get a better deal elsewhere.

~~~
webwright
I totally agree. But take two programmers. 1 is good and has been there for 5
years. The other is GREAT and has been there for 6 months (and is 20 years old
w/out a college degree). The second programmer gets a fat raise, placing him
above the first in terms of pay. The first doesn't necessarily agre that the
younger fella is clearly better: "Yeah, he cranks out code and he kisses the
right asses. But a lot of it needs to be rewritten and he gets 'creative' with
the spec," or somesuch. "Performance" is subjective. In the above scenario,
you might have 5 disgruntled good programmers when you give you young star a
fat raise.

I'm all for a meritocracy, but it's tricky with anything that's hard to
measure (exception: sales).

------
adw
As a founder, and therefore Mr Cost Control, I hope you _never_ , _ever_ read
<http://valerieaurora.org/howto_salary/>. :)

Here's Val Aurora's "short version", but you should really read the whole
thing;

1\. Negotiate! It will almost never hurt you, and almost always help. Screw up
your courage and just do it!

2\. Do your research - know what you are worth. Ask for advice from
knowledgeable, well-compensated people with more skill and experience than
you.

3\. Never ever give the first figure for salary - make the person hiring say a
number first, even if they ask, repeatedly. Never ever ever! If there's a
form, don't fill in the "Salary" blanks. Just don't do it.

4\. Always act slightly disappointed, no matter what the job offer is. Ask for
time to think about it (i.e., plan your strategy) before getting back to them.

~~~
mshafrir
What's the best strategy to get the other party to put out a salary figure
first?

~~~
KoZeN
It comes down to the type of person you are dealing with really but the most
pragmatic approach would be to indicate that you feel you deserve an increase
but are stuggling to quantify how much as your perception of your worth to the
company won't be as accurate as theirs. At that point ask them to suggest a
figure. Give them the opportunity to take time away from the discussion to
think about it.

The only negative about putting the ball in their court is that it gives them
control of the negotiation as they can easily come back with an extremely low
figure stating that they have discussed all of the options with the
appropriate personel and the quoted figure is their absolute maximum allowable
increase, leaving you with zero scope to stretch it.

~~~
adw
The original article is more focussed on "I've just got a new job", where
there isn't your current salary as a peg. It's going to be a lot harder to
negotiate given that.

What you have to do is somehow reframe the conversation in terms of what it'd
cost to hire - and train - someone to replace you. This only works if you
really _are_ essential, of course.

------
thibaut_barrere
Just one data point, but...

Based on experience around me (ie friends etc), the slightly depressing
conclusion is that you will have more raises if you change of company on a
regular basis (ie each 12 to 24 months).

I've even seen people leave their company, then one year after, being proposed
a lot more money by the very same company they left one year before, while the
coworkers wages had barely evolved.

The situation is different on high paying jobs (still around me), where
companies apparently try to ensure people won't leave (eg: > 100k€ per year +
15 weeks of holidays per year for a european insurance job I know of).

~~~
JanezStupar
15 weeks ? Are you absolutely certain?

What would a person need to learn to get that kind of job?

~~~
thibaut_barrere
I guess you need to learn some kind of luck at this stage :)

------
alain94040
I'll give you the manager's viewpoint. There are 2 considerations:

1) I have no motivation to increase your pay beyond you being a happy
contributor. More money to a happy employee doesn't make the employee more
productive or more happy. Therefore, unless you tell me that your pay is
making you _unhappy_ , I have no reason to give you a raise, no matter how
well you perform

2) It's all about balance with the rest of the team. You as an individual tend
to focus on _your_ perceived worth. I don't care so much as keeping fairness
among the team. I know how much I pay more senior people than you, and how
much I pay more junior people. If you need a raise (as defined earlier), then
I don't really mind as long as you don't mess up the equilibrium with the rest
of the team.

That's it. Of course, those basic facts can lead to millions of subtle
variations.

~~~
Shorel
That's why I only work up to the perceived worth of my salary. Want more work
done? Pay more. But I won't tell you this, it's up to you to notice.

I'm a much better programmer than the rest of the team, so I deserve a much
better pay. If you pay me just a little above them, you get just a little more
work. And I have more time to think about my startup.

~~~
lsc
> Want more work done? Pay more. But I won't tell you this, it's up to you to
> notice.

As someone who has worked as an employee, I can understand why you feel that
way.

As someone who has worked as an employer, good god, do you realize how useful
that information could be to your boss?

If you can figure out how to convey that information to your boss in a
socially appropriate way, it would allow him to more efficiently do his job.

Seriously, most people don't work that way. I'm slowly learning this through
trial and error; personally, I'm strongly motivated by money. But I don't
think this is true of most people. When its crunch time and I want my guys
working nights and weekends, I will occasionally declare that I'll pay double
for hours between certain dates. It gets me almost no extra work vs crunch
time when I pay regular rates, at least from my regular sysadmin. (time and a
half for time over 40 hours a week is normal of course, but even 'crunch time'
doesn't usually mean more than 40 hours a week for me... I think working more
than that usually has seriously diminishing returns.)

So my SysAdmin- you know what gets him to work harder? not money- as far as I
can tell, that doesn't make any difference at all. I gave him a raise and he
quit his other job, but he didn't really increase his hours working for me,
which is what I wanted. What motivates him is me working alongside him on the
project, as far as I can tell.

Sometimes this works out great; I mean, he's at the beginning of his career,
so he's working for the experience more than he's working for the money, and
like most arrogant people, I enjoy teaching, especially teaching bright people
who pick things up quickly. It makes me feel like I'm a good teacher, and
really, working with him keeps /me/ on track and helps prevent me from doing
things like wasting time on hacker news. But it's requiring me to re-think how
to motivate people.

(on the other hand, my brother, who also works for me occasionally, is a total
mercenary in this regard. He eats up the double time hours, and isn't
particularly interested in my regular rates.)

------
brk
I've done this more times than I can count. It all comes down to _accurately_
valuing your contribution and evaluating your position in the company.

If the work is steady and you are making a solid contribution, then there is
usually much to be gained by bargaining for a pay increase. If work (ie: not
necessarily "profits") is slow it is harder to claim you are due a raise if
the organization is not operating near capacity.

I usually try to get a feel for other salaries in the company first (note: it
is helpful to make friends with the HR people, even if you don't particularly
_like_ them, they can be a useful source of info). If the company has a
general principle of paying way below average salaries, it's going to be
harder to negotiate. But, if other people are making decent bank, your request
is likely to be evaluated in proportion to other team members, and perhaps
seen as more reasonable/rational.

But what it really comes down to is scheduling some time with your manager and
laying out the details. There are a million variables, but you probably want
to highlight your lack of salary growth while you've been there, your
increasing contributions, fair market value for your position and so on. If
your boss is weak, he'll probably tell you he needs to get approval and may
reference some semi far-off non specific date/event ("the next staff meeting",
or "after HR is done with the new benefits policy") if he won't commit to a
specific time, tell him you'll check back "next Thursday" or some specific
time.

In the end, few people have ever gotten fired simply for trying to better
their salary and move up the ladder. Don't be intimidated by the process or
make it into anything larger than what it is: a simple conversation.

------
jrockway
In technology, the solution is to switch companies. I did this twice and
approximately doubled my take-home pay each time.

Companies are desperate for good programmers. If you have the goods (and can
prove it), you should have no trouble making whatever reasonable amount of
money you want. If your company doesn't care that much, you can convince them
to care (hard), or go elsewhere (easy).

It's a business, and you are the product.

(Oh, and something I've noticed when reading people's resumes... it's
apparently fine to go back to your original company after you've gotten a
raise via some other second company. The finance industry makes incest look
good.)

------
jason
I entered the professional workforce a little late but had always been
considered good with computers. Starting low($45k) I quickly came to
conclusion that people where making way more money($85k) than me and I was
just as good if not better at the task at hand than they where. With my
managers support I asked my employer for parity with my co-workers. I received
a good bump to start(65k) and over the course of a few years I was into a six
figure salary. There was some drama that helped along the way, people quiting,
epic weekends of coding, and normal BS of not working at a "google/fog creek"
type of place but it worked out for me.

------
rivo
I did the following two times. They were the only times I tried and I was
successful in both cases:

-I researched how much I should be getting and brought that data to the meeting with my boss. It's usually a little tricky because most data is one-dimensional (e.g. salary per years of experience) but it also opens up more ways to interpret it to your benefit. I insisted on comparing to the market and not to my co-workers.

-I always highlighted what the company or my boss was getting with my work. Never what I needed for myself. Also think about how much it would cost them to replace you.

-I highlighted how my work was changing and how that change should be reflected in my salary (e.g. more responsibility).

-I was open to creative solutions, such as getting half of the raise now, half of it a year later.

-I was prepared to leave if he had strictly refused without good reasons (e.g. a strict company-wide freeze on raises).

The last time I did this, the raise was 33%.

------
elblanco
"I'd like a salary increase please, how do I go about ensuring I get it next
pay raise period?"

~~~
natrius
That's less assertive than I'd recommend. There's no need to wait for the
"next pay raise period". Just ask.

~~~
dailyrorschach
That's not always true, especially for people working in large agencies where
there is actually 1-2 windows per year for raises, I've seen people leave over
it. I've seen it done to people being elevated to the Managing Director level,
but having to wait x months before compensation kicks in.

When you're part of a larger whole that controls the HR scale, showing you can
work within that isn't always bad.

~~~
natrius
It's a good point, but that still seems like a bad starting position, even in
that sort of organization. If raises have to happen at predefined periods, you
should just assume it's a given without mentioning it. If they say, "Yes, but
you have to wait", that's fine. If they say, "Okay, we'll give it to you",
that's better.

------
mattmaroon
As an employer I can tell you step #1 would be to make sure you're worth it to
your boss. If you don't know that your boss would be very unhappy to see you
go, he probably wouldn't.

Assuming you're one of the most valuable employees, and you have a good reason
(ie. your boss is paying you well under market rate for someone of your skill
set) then keep in mind that your boss probably won't be upset. Nobody is happy
to pay more for the same thing, but they'd be less unhappy than losing you.
What an employer pays his employees is often based on what they asked for
rather than what they deserved.

------
lee
You just ask, but take the advice that others have posted and definitely do
your due diligence on local market research before asking.

On a side note:

I've had 4 jobs in the past 3 years, and I've had significant pay increases
everytime I started with a new employer (except for my current job).

Job 1 -> Job 2: +30%

Job 2 -> Job 3: +50%

Job 3 -> Job 4: -15%

I took a pay decrease for Job 4 as the job was still paying well over the
median, was more interesting, and had a way better work environment.

Sometimes the best way to get a raise is to find another job.

------
thirsteh
There's a tendency here to excuse any such request with, "there's no budget",
and, "these are tough times", which frustrated me when I was in the same
position as you. Unfortunately, my advice isn't that good: I wrote a nice
letter explaining why I deserve a raise and ended it with a threat that if I
don't get it, I'm gone. Then, all of a sudden, the money was there ;)

------
loumf
Stop thinking that above average is good enough --- you shouldn't be happy
with that. You should be thinking about top 5% (of people with your number of
years experience).

Listen to the other advice here and go negotiate, but if the best point you
have is I'm average and not paid average, you aren't at a strong negotiating
point, yet (I know you said "above" average, but you also said that you "feel
like" it's that -- meaning you accept that you might not be).

If you don't get the raise, and you feel like it's hopeless to get it. End
with: What do I have to do to merit this raise in 6 months? Then go exceed it
by a lot, and keep going. Future negotiations will be much easier.

Also, becoming more than marginally above average will make finding a
different job much easier too.

------
bconway
As others have said, know you value to the company. But, there are two parts
to that. First (as already stated), know what a competitive salary is for your
position and experience. Second, _be able to back up your request_. Have
documentation of goals, successes, and anything else you've done to move the
company towards its goals. The latter is worth a lot more than an article or
job posting telling you what you're worth (and generates a bit less animosity
than waving an offer letter in their face).

------
AmberShah
I've asked for a raise and gotten it once. My other raises were all from
switching jobs, although I usually left for other reasons and you generally
get a step up.

When I did ask I knew the company was small and relatively informal. I said
that I had done X, Y and Z that included taking more responsibility and really
delivering and that I would like a raise. They asked me how much and I said
$15K and they said yes. It was pretty sweet.

Not to say you don't deserve it, but I would not really consider doing "above
average work" to be a good enough reason for a big raise. A small annual one,
sure. I would think you'd need to be taking on additional responsibilities.
Assuming you're doing that, then I think you should be able to make a
compelling argument. Also, since you know that you're underpaid, you could
bring that up as a point.

Whatever you do, don't make it into a threat that you will leave if you don't
get the raise. If they say no, just ask what steps you can take so that you
WOULD be worth $10K more money to them. If the answer is "nothing", then get
the hell out. Most likely the answer will be "you would need to doing X
independently" or something like that. In that case, do it, get your praise in
writing from your managers/coworkers, and then ask again in 6 months.

------
NickPollard
On a slight tangent, if you work at a large corp that has very organised
payroll/HR procedures, such as reviewing pay only at fixed times (eg. once
every 12 months, as my current employer does), how hard is it usually to argue
for a payrise ahead of schedule?

If the next pay review is 6 months away, is it feasible to argue for a payrise
now, or would managers have very limited power to fight against the HR
process?

~~~
kscaldef
In my experience, managers are actually more constrained during the annual
review cycle. They tend to have very specific quotas for promotions and
raises. One large company I worked for literally had a bell curve for raises
that managers had to fit their employees into. Every meaningful raise I've
gotten has come outside of the annual process.

------
efsavage
I hate to sound all macho, but you have two options in your case:

If you're new to the workforce, and think your underpaid, get a new job, or
shut up.

------
lpolovets
Out of college, I received a decent job offer and I took it. About a year
later, I felt like I was doing as much as most of the senior guys (maybe a
little lower in quality but higher in quantity), and felt like my salary
should be closer to theirs. Their salaries were 30-50% higher. So, I went to
my boss, and basically said "look, when you hired me, I was just out of
college, you were taking a risk, you didn't know what I could do or not do,
etc. Over the last year, I think I proved that I can do good work and lots of
it, and I hope my salary can reflect that." I asked for a 12% raise, my boss
said it sounded high but he would think about it. A few days later, I got what
I asked for.

TL;DR: you don't have to threaten to quit, and presenting good, logical
reasons for a higher salary can be pretty effective. Just figure out what
those reasons are and then present them to your boss in a non-threatening
manner.

------
kaitnieks
Ask "the man" if he has any plans to increase your salary, or if there is a
company policy that dictates that kind of thing. This way he will know that
you are interested in a raise, you will know from his answers if you have any
hopes of getting one, and then you can decide whether to stay there or not.

------
b3b0p
If you are not happy with your pay aren't you basically indirectly implying
that you are not happy with your job?

I would say if you are not happy with your pay, find a new job or at least
offers and take it from there.

You may not be unhappy at your current job (not your dream job, but not
terrible either), so if you present any real offers to your current employer
and they like you and see you as a valuable asset that they do not want to
lose I would think they would offer you more if that's what you wanted. Then
you can decide from that point if you want more pay (assuming they offer to
pay more and keep you) or do you want more pay and a different job?

------
omouse
You should talk to your co-workers and ask them what their experience was
asking for a raise. Another idea is to compare salaries and then see if maybe
most workers deserve a raise too. If the management keeps denying raises, then
you can collectively bargain for raises...I'm not sure how big the company is,
but it's kind of a pain in the ass to sack 5+ workers at a time and re-hire
especially when there are projects going on.

------
TWAndrews
I had an offer in hand and asked them to match it. To do this, however, you
have to be willing to accept the offer and leave.

------
2mt_stephan
Some time ago I've blogged about it,

"Top 10 Tips (+1) to Get a Pay Raise"

<http://codemonkeyism.com/top-10-tips-1-pay-raise/>

------
jashmenn
For a good book on the topic see "how to make $1000 a minute". Some of the
techniques are dated, but overall the principles are solid.

------
Kilimanjaro
The best way to get a raise is to get a new job.

------
jamesseda
two options:

1\. Just ask what you need to do to get a raise. You should expect something
about the economy being bad as the answer.

2\. Get another offer, Tell your current employer that you are very happy with
the current job but, they are not competitive in compensation, and you will be
giving you two weeks notice the next Monday. The wait to see if there is a
counter offer.

------
ndimopoulos
If you do not ask you will never get. That is what you should be thinking all
the time.

Your boss will not give you money just because you are a good guy (or girl).
They will always try to maximize their fortune and not yours. Sure you will
get a raise at some point to address inflation but that will come as late as
possible.

What I have done in the past was a long term one and not a 30 minute
conversation. I would throughout the course of the year, send emails to my
boss outlining my achievements of that period. So for instance if I managed to
upgrade X servers to save the company money, I would send an email at the end
of the task outlining that. This would be ammunition for me later on to ensure
that my request is not seen as unreasonable.

When the time comes to ask for the raise I was printing the emails and started
discussing the matter with my boss. 9 out of 10 the boss would not remember
half of the things that I had done throughout the year. I would let him/her
tell me first what they thought regarding a raise. I would approach it as
"What do you think I am worth here - what is my value to this company". To
this day it has worked wonders since only once I got an offer less than what I
wanted.

Finally you will need to have an accurate picture of the company's financial
position before you do that. You cannot ask for a raise when the company is in
trouble. If that is the case then you should be looking for another job.

A very good piece of advice is from yummyfajitas also as far as assessing your
value.

Good luck!!

~~~
dreepers10
"You cannot ask for a raise when the company is in trouble"

Isn't this the standard for most companies (especially IT) in today's economy?

~~~
rphlx
Yeah. Most tech companies are facing an "uncertain economy" yet the execs are
still paying themselves $300k/yr cash and as-much-as-possible w/ options/RSUs.
If you are talented, you can negotiate. Many people in senior management are
insecure, they know they are overpaid, and need people that can actually
produce, to help them hold their position.

------
fleitz
1) Work somewhere where they have the resources to pay you more. You ain't
gettin a raise if they dont have the money.

2) Justify your raise, this will probably mean talking to the guys in
accounting, make up something about helping sales but get the sales numbers
and a rough estimate of profit margin. Show your boss the numbers and how you
contribute to them, admittedly I got cut off from the official numbers after I
almost doubled my salary doing this.

3) Send out resumes. Yes, most employers don't want to hear you're leaving
because the pay is crap, others do, you want to work for the latter. If 1 and
2 don't work then usually this one will as business is a bit like dating, it's
much easier to get the girl if you already have one. When you have a job and
ask for money you will do so with confidence. If you are looking for money
then you are looking for money. Focus on the goal you want, be willing to jump
ship if the pay isn't there.

4) Be interesting, if you don't have some funny stories, make some up, you
want to be affable, when you talk to whoever will give you the raise do not go
in talking about your raise immediately, make some small talk about whatever
THEY are interested in first. Then move to your pitch.

5) There is a lot more to a job than money, make sure you really want the
cash, and not any other kind of perk.

Edit: I also wanted to say, that asking for a raise is a bit of an art, like
interviewing. You want to get good at it so do it frequently. Admittedly, you
can't ask for a raise every month or two, I personally never asked more than
once a year. So go do lots of interviews.

------
JanezStupar
I have a very humble experience in workforce myself (less than 5 years). But
these are my takeaway lessons.

1\. Never ask for a raise with "or else I'm leaving" threats. This is an
important lesson, that some of my coworkers don't understand - so they believe
that I got my raises through threats - since I am inclined to stand my ground
on important issues. I have threatened to leave for various stuff - even gave
my notice a couple of times. But never for trying to get a raise. I also
categorically refused to accept a raise as bribe instead I demanded to sort
the pressing issues out and after awhile I came to negotiate a raise.

2\. Make sure you're really that good OR at least perceived as good. Run the
extra mile, jump through extra hoops, endure extra hardships - don't
overextend yourself just step out of median (messianic complex is bad in
itself) - be a little more thorough, a little more reliable,... And your
efforts shall be noticed.

3\. When asking for a raise make your mind beforehand of what you're worth and
stick to the plan. If they refuse of the bat - persist, don't cave in (don't
be an ass - just ask what will it take to get what you want). What actually
happened with one boss is that I was commended, he said that he didn't realize
I was that aggressive and that this trait was exactly what he required - this
was actually a big boost to my early career.

------
korch
Many, many years ago in my first job developing software I made the worst
possible mistake and asked for an absurdly low salary out the gate. I was
happy just to be paid to code at all, and I was utterly naive about how money
truly drives the entire software industry. It took a few months until I
realized how badly I cheated myself so I asked the boss/owner of the company
(a small non-startup, less than 10 employees) for something like a 50% raise.
I knew I had to slightly highball to get the going fair market amount, since
nobody in this world can just be honest about money, so I expected the boss
would counter-offer with a lower rate. The boss avoided me for two weeks
straight, he shut himself in his office, constantly had his phone glued to his
ear, took extra days out-of-office, and completely let go of asking for
progress updates for my work, all to avoid talking to me at all.

It was kind of nice actually. I made a mental note of this trick, so that the
next time I want some breathing room to get the boss off my back, the easiest
way is to drop a hint that I want a big raise. :)

I did eventually get the raise, and oddly for the exact amount I requested,
but it was quite a painful first lesson to learn. Why will a modestly wealthy
person who owns a successful company have no issue whatsoever with completely
ripping of a just out of college kid who is slaving away for the owner's
profit margins, and yet exhibit the most irrational behavior when it comes
time to play fair and pay up? I don't know.

But it is absolutely true that in the software industry the easiest way to get
a raise is to switch jobs. That's just how the game is played. Any human
enterprise premised on profits is forced to be hugely wasteful, especially
when you consider how much talent is thrown away to another company in order
to avoid being honest about money, all so some jerk at the top can keep a
larger piece of the pie for himself. This kind of direct experience is why I
laughed at that stupid blog article from a few months back that said to never
hire "job hoppers." IMHO job hopping developers, acting like all out software
mercenaries, guns blazing on behalf of whoever is signing the checks, are
automatically amongst the smartest of the pool, since they see the fundamental
economic pattern underneath the entire software industry.

This silly money pattern also leads to the unusual circumstance that requires
when you switch jobs, always, every time, no matter what, _ask for a higher
salary than what you received at your last job._ Even if it's only a little
bit. Never, ever move backwards, at least unless there are other external
constraints preventing it. This is the only way to keep yourself from sliding
down into the economic sinkhole. Sadly, it is money and not geeky ideology
about OS, programming languages, etc that is the true driving force to align
yourself with. Money is magnetic north in all things.(Unless you have enough
Fuck-You Money, but that's a different story.)

Anyone who doesn't follow this negotiation pattern, and who isn't in some
highly custom circumstances is a complete fool who probably deserves to get
fleeced and left as a beggar by those shark-mouthed, pointy-haired MBAs we all
love. But we _can_ absolutely beat them at their own game. :)

Best of luck!

------
Quarrelsome
If you _really_ want more money the most effective method is to to "play
hardball". This play can double or even triple your income from a entry point
salary if you're worth it and you play it right.

The deal with hardball is that you have to leave your current company. You may
not actually leave the company but you must be _prepared_ to, otherwise it
wont work and you will back down too quickly.

As usual, look around the market for better pay and try to get a job interview
and a position for pay that you like the sound of. Once this is done and
dusted, hand in your resignation and state that the reason you are leaving the
job is due to pay. State a figure that would keep you at the company but
obviously keep this very private between yourself and your manager. You can be
a little cheeky with this figure, depending on how much you want to remain
there.

If they value your work sufficiently they will accept your figure and modify
your salary to keep you there. If they don't you leave for the other job that
pays better.

For best results you need to get the timing of the hardball perfect. You need
your employers to either be desperate, guilty or a bit of both. Desperation is
achieved by doing this at a critical moment. Say, the most senior member of
staff on your project leaves, thus leaving you with the most knowledge of the
system. Or in my case, regulation of the mortgage market was about 8 months
away and I was the only member of staff with sufficient knowledge to implement
their new system.

Guilt can be even better though depending on the type of manager you have.
Essentially you want the manager to feel as though they owe you something. For
example, if your pay review was supposed to happen six months after your start
but it has been twelve or eighteen months then they will feel guilty about not
doing it sooner. If they have cancelled a project you worked hard on or did
you some other kind of disservice your guilt ratio increases and you can cash
in.

I managed to push my salary from £12k to £36k in one fell swoop this way about
8 years ago. It's how I started contracting.

For context, the company had cancelled my own software development project
(which despite being poor code (when i look back on it) was fit for purpose
and worked). They replaced this with a system bought in (which they had to buy
on a management agreement from joining a particular group) that was just a
confusing mess of VBScript and SQL stored procedures. It didn't work, wasn't
built for purpose (a common operation would lock up the database server for 2
minutes+) and I only _just_ managed to stitch it together in time for
regulation day (actually it was a few days after, I had to manually do a lot
of the quotes in the first few days of regulation.. ). And when I say stitched
this process involved a bunch of programs I had also hacked together to cover
the gaps.

------
dimzzy
Read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" first...

------
arctictony
Best not to ask for a raise, just keep working hard and good things will
probably happen. Karma and all that.

~~~
GFischer
Doesn't work if your bosses are clueless / nontechnical or powerless (or a
combination of all of the above).

I've got hardworking coworkers that deserve a raise, and they won't since they
won't negotiate and the boss (deservedly) doesn't have the political clout
within the company to negotiate for us.

Edit: this at a largish company. Obviously doesn't apply to startups and
smaller companies.

------
ScottWhigham
The web has thousands and thousands of posts on this subject - you can get a
lot of great ideas from them. I'm not trying to be rude either by implying
that you haven't search; I'm completely serious: go to Google/Bing/whatever
and ask this question. There are some great posts out there.

~~~
PonyGumbo
People ask a lot of questions here that -could- be answered elsewhere. I
always assume they're asking here because they want to know what this
community in particular has to say about the issue.

