
Home computing for $5/month - wryun
http://pandoricity.blogspot.com/2017/08/home-computing-for-5month.html
======
mindslight
More like a how-to for computing poverty! It even has the parallels of
predatory landlords ("Google Cloud") and sharecropping (Chromebook/Android).

A 35W draw will cost you $5/mo at $0.20/kWh. This will either let you run an
oldish laptop continuously, or you can go down the path of newer hardware to
optimize your constant draw, and spend that energy budget on in-use amenities
(nice monitor or faster processing).

But looking at the bigger picture, why would you _want_ to set a limit on your
computing costs so low? Today's dominant business model is to use scaled
computational processes to trick people into overpaying for products/services.
One of the least prudent things an individual could do is further hinder their
ability to exercise their own computational agency!

~~~
wlesieutre
Assuming I did my math right, your cost estimate assumes 714 hours/month, or
23 hours/day. I'm guessing that's 24/7 usage plus some rounding?

Clearly that's not a realistic usage, but beyond that I'd say 35W is a high
estimate even during use. CodingHorror has some numbers for a Dell XPS M1330
[1], a laptop from 2008 with a Core 2 Duo (2 GHz) and 13.3" display.

Idle at max screen brightness is 20W, wifi bandwidth test bumps it up to 24W.
Running an instance of prime95 pushes it up to 50W, but most people don't do
that. Especially with hardware accelerated video, I don't think people are
spending the majority of their computer use with the CPU pegged.

A home laptop probably spends 18+ hours a day off/asleep, and the maybe 6
hours of use aren't going to all be heavy loads.

[1] [https://blog.codinghorror.com/revisiting-how-much-power-
does...](https://blog.codinghorror.com/revisiting-how-much-power-does-my-
laptop-really-use/)

~~~
mindslight
OP mentioned a server, so 24/7 is indeed what I was shooting for. 35W was a
figure from when I plugged a Thinkpad T61 (Core 2 duo, as well) into a Kill-a-
Watt. I actually did use that machine as a traveling server.

You can obviously buy newer tech for even better power efficiency, but that
gets into a discussion of accounting for capital cost vs recurring.

~~~
pmlnr
35W for a t61?! Undervolt it, core2 can still do it from sw only, set the cpu
governor to conservative, turn off the display - it's a server -, the modem,
the firewire, the pcmcia, the expresscard, wifi - again, server, cable is good
- <10W. I'm using a T400 like this with 2x2TB HDD.

------
claudiulodro
No way a cheap $150 Chromebook will last 4 years. I've been buying Chromebooks
for my wife for a while now and you really do get what you pay for. It's like
that parable with the poor and rich person's boots.

Sub-$200 Chromebooks are plastic so they break easily. I've had issues with
keyboard switches not working any more. The hole where the power adapter plugs
in gets loose and stops making a good connection. You're looking at about 2
years of everyday use before something critical breaks MAX.

A good, aluminum Chromebook that will actually last a few years of everyday
use is about $300.

~~~
godot
Anecdotal point: I have the exact same Acer Chromebook 11 that the OP mentions
in the article, which I bought for around $150 USD. It all feels like plastic,
but has been very durable for me.

Case in point: I was assaulted and robbed last year walking on the street,
while carrying this laptop in my backpack. I don't have much else in the
backpack and it's a thin one without padded protection. The robber pistol-
whipped me and I fell to the ground. He kicked me in the back once (while I
have the backpack on). My Chromebook took most of the force. There is still a
visible dent on the front cover of the laptop right now, as a result of this.
It still works perfectly (other than the dent being an aesthetic issue). This
was a year ago and I am still using this Chromebook.

I also had none of the issues you mentioned with keyboard switches, power
adapter plugs, etc. Maybe it's a manufacturer thing and not a Chromebook
thing? Maybe Acer is better?

~~~
AdmiralAsshat
I'm glad you survived the assault, but I am curious: he robbed you but _didn
't_ steal your laptop? Was it too cheap for his taste?

~~~
stordoff
A laptop you need to fence (small chance of getting caught) and potentially
need to wipe/unlock it depending on security settings. Cash OTOH is easy.

------
tyingq
Also see [https://johnlewis.ie/custom-chromebook-firmware/rom-
download...](https://johnlewis.ie/custom-chromebook-firmware/rom-download/)

It's BIOS ROM code for (some) chromebooks and chromeboxes to allow you to run
a normal Linux distribution. Not something like crouton, but regular Linux
booting.

I used it with an ASUS chromebox to get a cheap but decent desktop experience.
It's a Celeron, but easy to upgrade the storage and memory (2 DIMM slots!).

~~~
jws
Careful there. In some models if your battery goes totally flat the only way
to unlock the BIOS to boot boot Linux involved a restore to defaults which
erases your Linux partition.

Been there. Lost a couple days of work over it. Gave away the chrome book.

~~~
tyingq
Setting the "GBB" flags is the fix for this on at least some platforms.
[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Chrome_OS_devices#Boot_...](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Chrome_OS_devices#Boot_to_SeaBIOS_by_default)

------
IgorPartola
I'd love to run hardware at my house. I have two modest sized servers already:
one for storage and a few other things, and one for backups.

My biggest issue isn't cost of running the stuff. The problem is the network:
I am limited to a 5 Mbps upload on a _goddamn commercial line_ *. I literally
don't have an option for a faster connection. No static IP, no IPv6, no SLA,
no anything. Do you know how long it takes to upload 1 TB over a link like
this, while still having the web be usable? Because I do, and it's not pretty.

This is why home computing isn't happening. I am not running a rendering farm
or a BTC mining operation here, so just having CPU cycles is doing me no good.
But being able to run small apps on a self hosted PaaS would be really great,
and I can't do that, basically ever.

~~~
chinathrow
Any Wireless ISP in the area? Sometimes one is only one or two repeaters away
and bamm, 100mbi/s up and downstream.

~~~
IgorPartola
Yes and now. There are some in the area but my specific house has super poor
reception. Also, hosting web apps where the latency due to radios starts at
300ms is not something I really want. Wireless/Cellular is ok for some
consumers but it's not great for my needs.

~~~
hedora
300ms latency is closer to geo-synchronous satellite than decent terrestrial
broadband or even next gen satellite.

Last time I used a WISP, the expected latency was something like half the best
case for comcast or sonic dsl, and bandwidth was 6mbps symmetric.

When set up right, latency is ~zero queuing delay plus the speed of light to a
peering closet ~3 miles away.

This was with Canopy gear and unwired ltd; unwired is at least one generation
newer than that now. FWIW, Musk's rainbows-and-unicorns low orbit satellite
internet is targeting 25ms.

------
agumonkey
A less blogspot heavy layout

[https://app.printfriendly.com/print?source=homepage&url_s=uG...](https://app.printfriendly.com/print?source=homepage&url_s=uGGC_~_PdN_~_PcS_~_PcSCnAqBEvpvGLmoyBtFCBGmsE_~_PcScabh_~_PcSai_~_PcSuBzr-
pBzCHGvAt-sBE-fzBAGumuGzy)

------
Xoros
So the choices stated are Google or Google or Google ?

Nah, gonna keep my rapsberries.

~~~
fhood
Rpi's have their own drawbacks. I'm beginning to worry I am purchasing new
pi's for collecting rather than practical reasons.

~~~
djhworld
I have 4 Pi's running in my flat, they're great!

I have 1x Raspberry Pi 3 running docker that has the following containers
running

\- A service I wrote to control my TV

\- A service I wrote that sends commands to a smart plug that turns my lamp on
and off (I can then invoke it via curl and have setup Alfred workflows so I
can do it from my mac)

\- GOGS to store private code repos and mirror ones on github

\- ZNC (IRC bouncer)

\- A service I wrote to present a dashboard of common things I like to glance
at (e.g. twitter feed, pocket, pinboard, the weather etc)

\- A service I wrote that hooks up to Twilio to manage my voicemail

\- Portainer (a gui for managing docker containers)

\- A docker registry to store my custom images

I have another Raspberry Pi 3 running Pi-Hole to block internet advertisements
at the DNS level

Then I have a Raspberry Pi 1 (model B) that runs NGINX to act as a reverse
proxy to services in my network that I want to be exposed. These are all
protected by SSL (LetsEncrypt) and client side certificates authentication. It
also runs a service that updates a DNS record on AWS Route53 whenever my IP
changes as I don't have a static IP.

Then the last one is this [https://github.com/djhworld/blinkt-tube-
status](https://github.com/djhworld/blinkt-tube-status) I can't take credit
for the case etc, but it's super handy in the mornings!

~~~
sokoloff
> A service I wrote that hooks up to Twilio to manage my voicemail

Love to learn more about this.

~~~
djhworld
It's very simple at the moment, I have my phone forward all missed calls to a
Twilio number, which has a webhook to my service.

The service just says a message to the user, gives them the option to leave a
voicemail, then I call the transcription API to try and transcribe the message
into an SMS message (sort of like what Google Voice and Apple offers on
iPhones but I don't have an iPhone and I believe Google Voice is only
available in the US)

I plan to do more with it soon, Twilio's transcription API is a bit rubbish, I
think it might be geared towards American accents so it fails quite miserably
with British ones with hilarious consequences.

------
ben_jones
You know what would be an interesting consumer product? A $100 black box you
can plug into your home network that runs email, media, and social,
applications with no hassle. Knock out dependencies on a dozen third party
services in one fell swoop.

EDIT: to clarify, I believe consumer hardware has progressed enough to provide
an elegant solution to a slew of simple cloud services which people pay
monthly for, i.e. storage. The markup on simple software that is hosted in the
cloud is just too high. Now convincing investors to touch a hardware start-up
with a 10ft pole...

~~~
CharlesW
> _You know what would be an interesting consumer product? A $100 black box
> you can plug into your home network that runs email, media, and social,
> applications with no hassle._

This basically exists, no?
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0181JTPCU/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0181JTPCU/)

~~~
Mister_Snuggles
I think ben_jones is trying to imply that the black box would BE your email
server, etc. He did say "Knock out dependencies on a dozen third party
services in one fell swoop.", which seems to strongly imply not relying on an
email provider, social network provider, etc.

------
viach
I think that using cloud environment for development is very promising. I
tried it with linode 8GB instance and the compilation speed of scala project
was the same as on 2012 MBA. The problem is that you usually want some gui
setup for IDE and things and you need to tune vnc to the limits it can offer.
Docker didnt quite work for me, due to the ports hell or, probably, my wrong
hands setup...

~~~
wolco
The trend over the last few years is to work locally and push changes through
git.

Working remotely on a server gives you cloud abilities because you can easily
switch devices and continue working.

Having a cloud service provide the gui or editor is an option available now.
But to have a local editor with ssh means you can work on your phone using a
proper mobile editor you can run a full ide on your desktop or use vim
directly on the server.

The security and privacy of your code remains in your hands. Best of all
worlds.

~~~
viach
Good point, regarding security. If you use company's vpn, using throwaway
cloud server is questionable, to say the least.

------
synicalx
Some famous quotes from the author:

"Ok honey, now type in _gcloud compute instances create my-vm --zone us-
central1-b --preemptible_. But don't forget the _\--preemptible_ otherwise the
bank will take our house."

"You don't need a bigger screen than that."

"Sorry kids, Google says you have to stop playing Minecraft now."

"Oh don't mind that noise, telemarketers call the server sometimes."

(These are obviously not quotes from the author)

------
tlrobinson
I've been wondering, is there some service that runs an SSH proxy that will
automatically spin up a machine when I try to connect, and automatically spin
it down after some idle period?

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I've been meaning to try something along those lines with DigitalOcean, they
have an API so presumably i can script starting a new instance and then SSH in
to it; should take about 60s based on the manual route.

------
pmlnr
Forget chromebooks, get old thinkpads with some friendly linux. Cheaper and
will actually last, unlike a chromebook.

------
matthberg
A major hole I see in this plan is any sort of gaming beyond simple apps. Good
luck with that.

~~~
pault
I have an absurdly expensive MacBook for work, and I thought about building a
gaming rig but didn't want to drop the ~$3k to get it (yes, I could build one
for cheaper but I get carried away when I'm shopping and have a weakness for
best-in-class components). I started looking into AWS gaming (very
disappointing performance) and discovered paperspace, which has p5000 and
p6000 16GB dedicated GPU instances. I think it's about $0.60/hr and I end up
spending about $30/mo on my weekend gaming binges. I have 1000Mb google fiber
(sorry) so YMMV if you have constrained bandwidth, but the p5000 is beastly
and it has easily brushed aside every game I've thrown at it with ultra
settings at 1440p (the parsec streaming client I use is capped at 1440p or I'd
be running it at 2160p). Eventually the costs will catch up with me, but in
the meantime I can't think of a good reason to buy my own hardware (aside from
the urge to tinker). Obviously for personal computing I feel differently but
for a gaming machine paperspace is _very_ convenient. No affiliation, I'm just
super happy with the product.

~~~
chadgeidel
Can you point to any writeups about this? The cost is low enough that I could
just try it myself, but I do have one question about "controller support." I
play PC Racing sims - I wonder about the support for wheel/pedals.

I'm assuming VR is out of the question due to the latencies.

~~~
pault
Parsec supports controllers: [https://faq.parsec.tv/articles/10080-setting-up-
your-control...](https://faq.parsec.tv/articles/10080-setting-up-your-
controllers)

I don't think VR is supported, and yeah, even a low ping would make it a vomit
comet anyway.

Here's the pricing:
[https://www.paperspace.com/pricing](https://www.paperspace.com/pricing) You
have to sign up and then request access to the GPU instances (each instance
type has to be requested individually, unfortunately. I found the GPU+
instance to be a little underpowered, and the P5000 has been performant enough
that I haven't bothered to try the P6000). I can take up to 24 hours to get
access. Once you have that though, you can create an instance with the parsec
image and it comes with all the drivers, as well as steam and EA origin pre-
installed. The parsec client by default starts up without admin mode, which
crashes a lot in my experience, so I log in using the browser client and
restart the parsec server as admin manually. It's basically ready to go out of
the box and the longest part of the setup is just waiting for your steam games
to install.

~~~
boxerbk
You can just go to parsec.tv/account. You don't have to use the paperspace
website at all with parsec anymore. I'm the cofounder of parsec btw

~~~
pault
Awesome! Do you have an ETA for 4k support? Also, which instance types can be
launched from parsec? Awesome software BTW!

------
jklinger410
If I could slap the person on the blogger team who thought this layout was a
good idea...

~~~
cardiffspaceman
Agreed, my one visit I couldn't get the page to scroll at first except with
the mouse wheel, which I don't normally scroll with. So that unfortunate
animation sequence where it seemed like copies of the page were being dealt to
me like cards, must have messed with the focus. It would have been easier to
cope with an ad!

To have someone talking from a position of simplicity and economy use such an
excess of technical design to present it was a bit much.

I would be surprised if the site renders decently on a chrome book.
Ironically.

------
alethiophile
I'd pick a Raspberry Pi over an Android, just because with the Pi I could plug
in an external HD. But in terms of what I actually do, I just run a full
server as a NAS, and don't pay any attention to the power bill.

Also, without external keyboard+display, using a laptop as my primary computer
would ruin my body in a month flat. Ergonomics are important.

~~~
wryun
If you choose the right device, you can plug an external HD in with something
like:

[https://www.amazon.com/Micro-Charge-Cable-Adapter-
Connector/...](https://www.amazon.com/Micro-Charge-Cable-Adapter-
Connector/dp/B01AU8E25A)

(not all will support charging and OTG at the same time)

------
metalliqaz
This dude doesn't have any storage anywhere. I mean, I don't take many photos
and even my photos use more than 50GB. I can't imagine anyone who makes a post
like that requiring less than a Terabyte for all the stuff they create and/or
download.

------
SadWebDeveloper
I have a friend that was doing something like that but he suddenly changed his
mind when he lost his broadband internet connectivity for 2 weeks and put his
"home computing" on a 4G/3G network.

------
VikingCoder
Don't forget there's Termux and other apps, which give you a Linux Shell on
Android devices...

...and new Chromebooks can run Android apps...

So if you want a CLI, your Chromebook or your Android can get you there.

~~~
rkeene2
Termux on ChromeOS is a terrible experience though. Basic things like ^W to
delete a word will cause the Termux window to disappear. Copying is _HORRIBLE_
, requiring you to treat your very precise pointing instrument like a tiny
finger -- you have to move the mouse somewhere, hold down the button for a few
seconds, move both ends of the selection, then click "Copy". Ctrl-<number>
does things in ChromeOS rather than going to the terminal, so no quick
switching of application windows. You can't run two instances of Termux on
Chrome OS, which is a major bummer if you have multiple monitors.

Really, most Android apps are a terrible desktop experience. They handle the
mouse poorly, they handle multiple monitors poorly, few of them at this point
can deal with being resized to arbitrary sized (i.e., you get only phone-
aspect-ratio sized or full screen), they handle co-existing with other running
processes poorly (i.e., if you change the focus from one window to another on
a different monitor on an application playing a video the video pauses).

~~~
VikingCoder
^W to delete a word works perfectly.

I'm running Termux on a Samsung Chromebook 3. Can you explain what you're
running, so we can try to see why it doesn't work for you?

Also, don't forget, you can run Termux in the background, with an sshd, and
then run any SSH client you want to talk to it --- which puts the copy and
paste into your control.

Also, Termux is open source... So, if you have ideas about Copy and Paste, you
can try to implement them.

To switch application windows in Termux, Control-Alt-C makes a new window,
Control-Alt-N goes to next, Control-Alt-P goes to previous. It works great,
and is super quick.

You can run multiple Termux Application Windows, and then you can run multiple
SSH clients, so multiple monitors will work.

I know some of these are kind of hacks, but I'm just trying to be helpful.

Android Apps do handle the mouse terribly, no argument.

~~~
rkeene2
I'm running on an Acer Chromebook 15 (x86, 4GB of RAM).

For me Control-W closes the Termux window.

For me Control-Alt-N switches between sessions, which all live in the same
physical window, which I cannot figure out how to open multiple of.

It seems like your suggestion is to use Termux just to run an SSH server
locally and then use another, non-Android SSH client, to deal with the fact
that Android apps on ChromeOS work terribly UI-wise. That's a good idea, it
leads me to my next problem:

It lives in a separate IP address space from ChromeOS... I have some weird IP
address inside the ARC that is not the same IP as ChromeOS... I did not try to
SSH to that address from ChromeOS though, does it work ?

~~~
VikingCoder
It is in a different space, yes, but you can ifconfig to find it's IP and go
from there. I've run webservers from Termux and browsed them from Chrome. And
I've read about people doing the SSH thing.

To be honest, I still can't browse a Termux server from a different machine,
and I've spent a while trying.

------
xchaotic
This completely ignores the the cost of setting up your cloud VMs, cost of
downtime if your Internet is down etc. Sure an actual home server might be
more expensive in electricty alone, but you can keep your VMs there 24/7 for
not extra cost or hassle. If it takes you a day a month to spin up new
instances in extra dmin work, then that alone eats way morethan $5 saved in
electricity. Not to mention that you can actually own your server et etc...

~~~
wryun
[OP] You can keep the boot drive there 24/7 though (and that's factored in),
so there's a very low setup cost. True, if your internet is down...

------
sbochins
Everything he's using is a Google product. If you want a 4k computer display,
none of the options he listed will work. I'll stick with what I've got.

------
EADGBE
I'm pretty sure our infatuation with service-model pricing will ruin us all.

It's already ruined music for the majority of musicians.

~~~
winslow
Can you expand on that? It's an interesting parallel that you draw. I'm going
out on a limb and implying you mean that the small price per month is going to
eventually implode and engineers aren't going to be making as much money in
the future similar to how a musician gets a very small portion of the cost of
a music stream?

~~~
EADGBE
The only thing I meant by that was the relatively small revenue created for
the performing musician when paid out by stream, vs when paid out by royalties
of album sales.

But when the people don't want albums, what do we expect?

Today, we listen to music more than ever, but only those supported by a large
audience really see any benefit from the streaming model. People just aren't
spending the kind of money they used to on music, and it's affecting the music
itself. [1] Years ago (for a solid 10-20 years) your average unsigned regional
band could do well on CD sales alone. Yeah, it was up to them to make a good
album, but the sale of 100 albums (which could easily happen over the course
of one or two good nights), assuming 100% ownership could give the band
$1,000-$1,300 to split. In retrospect now, they'd need about 1,800 downloads
to achieve the same thing (Which people don't even really do anymore). Or
~70k-700k streams just to hit that same number. [2]

Ironically, I just heard of a Netflix suit suggesting something similar for
movies[3]. I'd imagine if this was to happen, we'd see the same thing in
Hollywood: a tightening of belts high up the food chain which may or may not
affect A-list actors; but an otherwise decimation of the lower market. AMC has
a nice quote (Although, they'd naturally be opposed to such a thing, so take
it with a grain of salt): "...[the] price level is unsustainable and only sets
up consumers for ultimate disappointment down the road if or when the product
can no longer be fulfilled."

[1]
[https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/shrinknp_800_800/AAEAAQAAAAA...](https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/shrinknp_800_800/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAJXAAAAJDc1ZjI1Y2U2LTY3NjEtNDRmZC1hMTFlLTllNmMzNTZiMWJjNQ.png)
(I wish I could find something to 2016, but not a graphic like this)

[2] [http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/how-
muc...](http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/how-much-do-
music-artists-earn-online-2015-remix/)

[3] [https://qz.com/1055032/netflix-for-cinemas-moviepass-
wants-t...](https://qz.com/1055032/netflix-for-cinemas-moviepass-wants-to-you-
to-go-to-the-cinema-as-much-as-you-like-for-10-a-month/)

~~~
winslow
I really appreciate the reply! You definitely bring up great points. I suppose
that's why we see the bigger names like Disney, Blizzard(Activision), EA, etc
building out their own distribution/streaming channels compared to utilizing
Netflix/Steam to avoid that 30% and keep a bigger chunk of the revenue.
Obviously game sales are different than streaming TV/movies but I'd expect
similar economics to be in play.

~~~
EADGBE
I think you're right. But I don't think casual consumers want that. I can't
wait to explain to my 4 year old that Disney movies aren't on Netflix now.

I think what went wrong with music was the initial value set, and then
competed with (into extinction) by Davids and Goliaths. Steve Jobs valued a
song at $0.99 11 years ago. We've yet to adjust that for inflation. It's only
gotten worse with valuations for streaming. The real problem now isn't that we
don't listen to albums anymore (OK, maybe that's half the problem) or that we
don't have physical music, but Steve Jobs valued it too low. And that a song
that took $2,000,000 to produce costs the same as a song that took $0 to
produce; yet both command a $0.99 price point.

I'm getting preachy, and I'm sorry.

------
PeterStuer
Must be a very fresh father to be blind to the primary computing needs of this
child: gaming.

------
bronz
if you want to compute for 0 dollars per month, buy a decent laptop and go to
star bucks and libraries.

~~~
mdip
I'm guessing this was an intentionally snarky comment, but the article
includes the cost of buying a Chromebook in the figures it provides so "buy a
decent laptop" would have a monthly cost associated with it.

In addition, Starbucks -- at least the one near me -- doesn't allow you to
occupy a seat without purchasing something and since the Internet service
offered there is subsidized by coffee ... very expensive coffee, at that ...
the cost of using Starbucks[0] daily for 5 business days/over 4.5 weeks/month
assuming you get away with buying only one Venti Starbucks regular coffee at
USD$2.45 is about the cost of broadband at home, not including fuel to drive
there and back (assuming you didn't walk/ride a bike)... and there's no
preemptible VMs included with the brew.

[0] I skipped library internet access because, at least for me, the
performance is so bad at my public library I wouldn't consider that viable
Internet service. And it smells like books there.

~~~
bronz
it wasnt snarky at all, i have no idea why people downvoted it. i am extremely
poor and starbucks and libraries are great places to use the internet and get
things done. ive never encountered a starbucks that made you buy something.
but that doesnt matter because free wifi is everywhere. just find a safeway, a
cafe, or any other such place. i actually prefer the slower speeds you
typically find in those places because they are perfectly adequate for
downloading documentation, pushing to github and so on, ie do productive
things. but it makes wasting time on youtube very painful.

~~~
icebraining
_i have no idea why people downvoted it_

Probably because you didn't include the laptop's price. If you spent $300 and
it lasts you four years, that's already $6.25/month. Sure you get internet
access for free, but so could the author, it's not like you can't take a
Chromebook to Starbucks or the library.

~~~
bronz
well, you can get laptops for free quite easily if you are willing to
compromise on performance a little. my last laptop was free.

~~~
icebraining
How?

~~~
bronz
people throw out good computers quite often.

