
Collusion - iPad pen productivity solved - orionvmjoseph
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/553362111/collusion-ipad-pen-productivity-solved
======
flyosity
The video still shows a lot of lag between when the stylus touches the glass
and the pixels in the app show the pen trail. This needs to be _heavily
optimized_ or else it will make their hardware a lot of engineering work for
nothing and users won't be happy. At this stage, from the video, it looks to
have similar latency as other existing iPad sketch apps and those have no
hardware dongle or stylus (and cost $100 less.)

~~~
slantyyz
It's a neat idea, but the lag is a dealbreaker for me. I've been
looking/waiting for a pen based note-taking solution, even if it's a
unitasking solution, to get rid of the heavy hardcover sketchbook in my
briefcase.

My use case is simple, I just want a digital copy of my notes -- I don't need
any OCR or anything fancy like that, and I'm not convinced that a LiveScribe
is the way to go.

I had high hopes for the NoteSlate, but that product has turned out to be
vapor ware.

~~~
learc83
Have you seen the wacom inkling?
<http://www.wacom.com/en/products/inkling.aspx>

~~~
slantyyz
The Inkling looks interesting. The Verge gave it a 6.8, which isn't too too
reassuring.

The thing with the smart pens is that they're chunkier than I'm used to, and
then I worry about the smoothness of the pens.

I know the LiveScribe doesn't have gel based ink refills, which is basically
the only type of pen I write with. I find the friction from normal ball point
pens a little uncomfortable.

~~~
Centigonal
You should honestly consider purchasing a fountain pen. They work via
capillary action, which means that they write on contact -- no pressure
needed. At all.

Some good starters are the LAMY Safari, the TWSBI 540, and the Kaweco Sport.
All of these cost <$50 and can take bottled ink (with possible modifications
to the Kaweco), reducing refill costs drastically.

I, too, used to think gel pens were the bomb, but writing with a fountain pen
is just something else. :D

~~~
nico_h
Unless you're left-handed :-( Then you spend your time scratching and pushing
against the paper and smudging your handwriting :-(

If you're trying to do mirror writing they become awesome again, but that's
not a frequent use case:-(

~~~
jvdongen
I'm a 'lefty' and write with a fountain pen using Parker's Quink - a fairly
fast drying ink. Works remarkably well.

~~~
nico_h
Thanks, nice to know. Btw, do you use a particular model of fountain pen (hard
/ supple head, wide / narrow tip) ?

------
wmblaettler
The name Collusion elicits negative connotations and my initial reading of the
title led me to think that there was come wrongdoing on Kickstarter's part. I
really would reconsider the name of the name of the company / product, unless
this is the intended effect.

~~~
mortenjorck
I really don't get the name at all. You wouldn't call your product "Insider
Trading" or "Price Fixing" – why is "Collusion" any better?

------
learc83
I would rather use this on an $80 android tablet than a $500 iPad. I'd be a
lot more likely to take it with me everywhere if dropping it wasn't so costly.

Come to think of it, I'd rather use an android with a custom ROM that turned
it into dedicated writing/drawing device.

Edit: watching this video also made me think of how much better math textbooks
could be on dedicated writing tablets.

I'm going back to school to finish up a math degree, so I've recently been
reading a lot of math textbooks. An interactive version on a dedicated tablet
would be amazing.

Think about it--animated examples, working out problems right there on the
page, writing a function and then tapping it to automatically graph it.

~~~
stephengillie
You would be more impressed by a Wacom penabled tablet or phone, like the
Galaxy Note.

My Wacom penabled tablet/laptop convertible PC was invaluable at taking
calculus and economics notes in Word 2007 - You can type all the text, then
pick up the stylus and draw formulas, graphs, and symbols where you want.

It was such a powerful use-case for me that I don't understand why nobody has
copied it yet.

~~~
tikhonj
Off topic, but you could have done your notes in LaTeX as well. In fact, in my
experience, using TeX for math formulas (I did a semester's worth of calculus
notes in LaTeX) is actually _faster_ than writing them out by hand (\unless I
give up on trying to make the result readable at all, and maybe even then.

Admittedly, graphs and illustrations _were_ an issue. In fact, I basically
didn't bother with either. But just for text and math notation, LaTeX was
awesome.

~~~
majormajor
I took my math and CS notes in LaTeX because I hated writing and wanted
everything together in files that I had source control on, but I definitely
didn't find it faster to type in the equations than write them out by hand,
even with a fair bit of practice at Emacs keyboard shortcuts for common stuff.

------
streeter
This looks to be exactly like another iPad stylus on Kickstarter called the
iPen [1]. It's funding was successful in December.

[1] [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1225098940/ipen-the-
firs...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1225098940/ipen-the-first-active-
stylus-for-ipad)

~~~
owenfi
Or the By-zero[1] with apps titled like "Studio Basic +". And a review[2].

[1] <http://www.by-zero.com/> [2] [http://www.ipadforums.net/ipad-
accessories/57538-byzeo-studi...](http://www.ipadforums.net/ipad-
accessories/57538-byzeo-studio-one-smart-pen-review.html)

------
prawn
Hard to know how far this will go to solving what people want in this type of
product. The lag is pretty clear in the video - don't underestimate how much
this will frustrate you in reality. Watch the scene where the student is
writing very carefully just to form simple letters in a short word.

In my experience, two things matter with styluses on the iPad - precision and
responsiveness.

With a view to replacing all the scraps of notes and sketches I have lying
around, I bought a stylus recommended by an Industrial Designer friend and
gave it a crack on my iPad: <http://adonit.net/product/jot-pro/> ($45
including shipping to Australia)

I've used that stylus in some sketching app I can't remember and Penultimate
(which has some palm avoidance settings that are somewhat but not completely
effective). The stylus itself is well made and the little tip piece works well
enough. For rough wireframe sketches and largeish notes, it all works fairly
well.

But if you want to annotate your drawings by hand, I think you may find it
frustrating. Writing text is pretty weak. My stylus sits largely unused and
I'm sketching on paper as much as ever.

In stylus demos, ignore any moments where they circle part of a map, or
underline something, or sign their name. Looks lovely, but none of that is
especially hard with a cheap stylus and a sketching app, nor will most people
be doing a whole lot of it.

Pay special attention to the moments where they try to write in any small
detail and watch for the thinness, quality of the lettering and responsiveness
to the pen. Did you see the collaborative drawing of the Sydney Opera House?
For almost everyone, that's what the drawings will probably look like - a bit
of a rough mess.

The collaborative features might appeal to others, but at no point in my
work/home life am I usually sharing a drawing space with a colleague. I'm
rarely excited at the idea of someone messing with my garden layout drawings
or idea wireframes! If I'm dealing with wireframes for a client project, it's
usually not on an iPad.

~~~
rob_colluding
Hey Prawn,

You are making some very good points, sounds like you are particularly
familiar with the issues at hand. RE the operahouse stuff - the student that
did that were going for a 'ken done' look - very scribbly:) I'd say the pen
performance when dealing with small detail is very decent - not Wacom Pro
decent but not far off. Might org a video to show the performance. By the way
we're drawing up a list of internal testers, can I interest you in trying out
Collusion and telling us what you think?

Cheers,

Rob CEO - Collusion

~~~
prawn
Happy to help you test if you want. I'm in Adelaide.

------
discordance
I had a play with this and it's essentially a two dollar stylus that can also
emit high frequency audio based on pressure, with the iPad attachment having a
couple of mics in it to receive audio. This enables the stylus to transmit
pressure levels as inaudible sounds, resulting in the ability to draw thin and
thick lines.

The software was ok, but the biggest problem is still that typical stylus lag
on iOS. Not much you can do about that due to iOS restrictions. It's early
days for Collusion so i'm sure they'll come up with something.

~~~
rob_colluding
$2 Dollars! Can u send me the name of your supplier (off-line of course)- for
every ultrasonic pen you can get at $2, I'll happily pay you $30+ and my right
arm.. jokes asides (seriously the tech behind making the ultrasonic stuff work
is heavily patented and expensive).

BTW the inking weight system has nothing to do with the inking state of the
pen (which incidentally is Binary), (so the fact you couldn't tell i guess is
a complement to Sumo) the transmission of which is IR not ultrasonic. Last
thing, there is indeed plenty of latitude to address several aspects of
laginess in iOS that arn't restricted, you just have to look for them, and be
prepared to invest a lot of time. We know because we're doing it right now,
and your right - it is early days, and thanks for the thumbs up - we are
indeed coming up with something:)

------
twelvechairs
I am probably somewhere in the target market for this (as someone who works in
architecture), but as nice is it is technically and as good as the
implementation might be, I'm not sure it would be very useful to me. I barely
use a stylus as is (only for detailed work in photoshop) and most of the other
situations for using this I'd actually prefer pen and paper (physical copies
are easy to sort, trash and store, I'd rather not look at a screen all day,
etc.)....

------
rjsamson
Neat product, but I think they lose a bit of credibility with this quote:

 _"nobody's nailed how to make the iPad a compelling every day productivity
tool"_

Really? Also, $139 seems like a bit high, but I could be wrong.

~~~
rob_colluding
Hi, RJ let us get Collusion out the door:) or come try it at our next test
event. My definition of 'nailing it' (my quote so i take responsibility for
it) is to see people regularly using their iPads, in meetings, a lecture
theater, or choose to use it over the laptop that they have sitting on their
desk. I dont see that yet, not even close. I think that's a big hairy goal
worth going after. Sincerely hoping to prove you wrong... just a little bit:)

As for the price - yes indeed it is expensive - this is new and quite complex
tech (sporting the worlds fastest cloud collaboration system - as you could
imagine is somewhat different to slapping it up on EC2. It should be
expensive, as we're not building it on the cheap:) Given it adresses a gaping
hole in the market for a lot of people who want to use the iPad as a primary
productivity tool, I'd argue it is excellent value:)*takes off marketing hat..
Hope to win you over in the coming months. Keep an eye on us.

Cheers,

Rob, CEO Collusion.

------
jstevens85
It seems odd that they would state that one of their cofounders "brings a
degree in electronics and computing from M.I.T." when he in fact went to
Manukau Institute of Technology.

~~~
JetMan
They are either being dishonest or obtusely misleading -
<http://au.linkedin.com/in/navdeep2u>

~~~
rob_colluding
OMG someone is wrong on the interwebs. In this instance Jetman I'm biting.
Full disclamer - Nav is my close friend and co-founder - so I'm honorbound in
Aussie culture to say the following. If this were a pub and you were in Oz,
we'd be stepping outside right about now. Since this is hacker news - I'll
simply say the following:

Who knew, the world is indeed bigger than the US of A. I'm guessing you knew
that before you posted such nasty stuff when you clicked on Nav's Linkedin
page and saw that his degree was from Manukau Institue of Technology MIT NZ.

Costic & Willfully Dumb in one post - Jetman, please fly far, far away.

Nav earn't his degree, is working a full time job + doing about 35 hours a
week on Collusion. We're busting our asses to build some very cool tech, and
do care about our rep.

Frankly we're kind of stunned at the generally negative attitude on Y
Combinator hacker news. We're in the same boat (startup), starved for our art
for the last year, we built it, and were going to market. Give us a break.
More so - give us your support.

------
jaaron
Seems like two different products - the app and the pen. I don't see how the
app couldn't be created without the pen or the pen created without the app.

~~~
eridius
The pen can't be created without the app because it uses a receiver that's
plugged into the 30pin port using the Apple iAccessory Protocol. This means
the application is required in order to actually implement the software side
of the accessory.

As for the app without the pen, that would certainly work. In fact the $139
level includes 2 promo codes for a touch-only preview version of the app (only
usable until the public launch).

------
Terry_B
[OT] Why is it that I knew he was a fellow Australian the second the video
popped up and without volume? The brain is a crazy thing.

------
rob_colluding
From Collusion.

RE: The Pen Hardware. A few details (beats guessing eh?), we're working in
partnership with Byzero of Korea with respect to the pen and receiver, and we
are getting excellent results optimising hardware and software.

RE: Real world lag 'issues'as apposed to 1/2 speed video issues: We've
publicly tested Collusion with about 100 people with a VERY early POC release
- the same software as used in the video (which is now 3+ months old) very few
commented on lag as being an issue - and that was with no serious attempt at
lag optimisation on our software. As you can see some of these kind folk have
come to our defence on this forum (thanks fellas). We are extremely anal about
squeezing every last drop of performance out of our software and iOS for
release to make using a pen on the iPad as good as it can be. We're confident
that we're getting it right, and look forward to our next open invitation test
catchup to show people first hand how Collusion is evolving, and yes we'll
shove a video camera in there, and post links here:)

To those who have a problem with our name, we have dedicated a special FAQ
just for you. See <http://collusionapp.com/faq/#a1>

Guys (that is an Australianism that includes all the female posters here too)
- we recon we have the pen thing in hand - was that a pun (assume for a second
it is)... there is a LOT of brainpower here (hacker news), please turn your
attention to other things we are working on... please - its seriously cool
stuff - if you think Collusion is just a note taking squiggly drawing app -
look a little deeper.

I'll say this the pen is simply and enabling technology, a gateway to far far
more interesting stuff. We know people fixate on the pen, and thats fine, but
we think people once they have it, will stick will Collusion for what it does.

Final note, pen input on tablet is as important as a keyboard or mouse to a
PC: Really important till the point where it 'just works' then hardly noticed
thereafter. We've hardly noticed the pen for a while now;) You dont use your
computer for the keyboard, and we've not built Collusion for the pen.

There are some big ideas in Collusion - we've updated our Kistarter page text
to hint at them a bit more strongly. Please have a read.

------
saurik
This looks exactly like the functionality my Compaq TC1000 tablet had back in
2002, thanks to Windows Journal. Microsoft even allowed you to search through
your handwritten notes, as it was doing fuzzy handwriting recognition on your
scribbles (which would never hav been accurate enough for actual recognition,
but for purposes of "find me a scribble that could be me writing the word
"hello" it was downright epic).

------
mbq
Come on, whatever you do only the resistive screen or active styluses can make
iPad usable for handwriting -- the first would kill this "slidiness" and glass
surface which seems a core selling factor for this stuff, the second would
require a wired stylus or a battery-draining wireless powering. Ergo, if you
wish pen productivity, buy an old tablet PC.

------
LaSombra
It's Collusion the same as iPen by Cregle? <http://www.cregle.com/ipen> and
their Kickstarter page [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ipen/ipen-the-
first-acti...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ipen/ipen-the-first-active-
stylus-for-ipad)

------
mtgx
If you're looking for a tablet with a highly accurate stylus (made by Wacom)
buy the Galaxy Note 10.1.

~~~
noveltyaccount
Every time I see one of these stylus products for an iPad I chuckle. An active
digitiser would be a great addition to a future model, but if pen input is
important to you, look elsewhere.

~~~
pvidler
Accuracy is not the issue -- the jot pro stylus seems very accurate to me. The
real problem is lag, which so far prevents me from doing any handwriting on
the tablet.

From what I can tell, lag is an issue for all the tablets right now?

------
jkahn
I use an iPad with Penultimate and a Wacom Bamboo Stylus every day. Works
great. I don't need this.

~~~
Synaesthesia
It's ok, the resolution is nowhere near as good as this though. I have to
write quite big to be legible.

~~~
LaSombra
Try Inkflow. Works great and has a zoom feature if you need to write small.

------
chadv
A dongle? I understand why it's necessary for the pressure sensitivity and
being able to draw fine lines, but it seems like a drag. I hope they release
the app with support for regular touch input, it looks good.

------
Groxx
That's some gorgeous writing interpolation. How high is the detection
resolution / Hz?

------
cocolos
BUT YOUR HAND CAN'T REST ON THE SCREEN :(

~~~
noveltyaccount
> Collusion offers the highest precision input available for the iPad via a
> dedicated digital pen (not a capacitive stylus). We've also developed
> sophisticated (proprietary) palm rejection technology so you can write and
> draw naturally with your hand resting on the screen.

------
keymone
jobs would hate it.

