
The Apprentice Programmer (2013) - bootload
http://tobi.lutke.com/blogs/news/11280301-the-apprentice-programmer
======
jakobegger
We also have the apprentice system in Austria. It's not always as nice as
this.

If you manage to get an apprenticeship at a good company like Siemens, you'll
receive great education. They put a lot of effort into educating apprentices,
and after three years you'll be able to get a reasonably well paid job
quickly, either at the same company or at a different company.

But especially lots of smaller businesses don't have the time and resources to
take proper care of their apprentices. Especially in the service industry,
apprentices are just hired because they provide cheap labor. Apprentices at
restaurants or supermarkets will often spend three years performing only the
most menial work, and the "Berufschulen" (vocational schools) are extremely
low quality. After spending 3 years in an apprenticeship like this, you'll
have trouble finding a proper job, since employers would rather just hire a
new cheap apprentice.

~~~
unimportant
Everybody wants to work for big companies like Siemens, so they filter people
out via school grades (people that hate the educational system usually have
bad grades) and inane logical thinking tests that go on for hours.

If you don't fit in, you're pretty much on your way to permanent welfare or
min wage jobs in Germany unless you emigrate like I did.

The author just got lucky and fit in a bit better than I did.

~~~
spacecowboy_lon
Quite how would some one like Woz be treated.

~~~
unimportant
The best and brightest in the US would probably be suicidal welfare candidates
in Germany, but enough whining from me for now, as I have been to enough third
world countries to know that it can always be worse...

~~~
smcl
That seems a little harsh, or sarcasm or I've missed the point. Why would
those who would otherwise be the best and brightest in the US be headed for
welfare if they were raised in Germany?

~~~
unimportant
I'm exaggerating of course, but dropouts don't tend to do well in Germany. You
either fit in or get pushed out. I suppose Zuckerberg and the like would
mainly end up as some no name devs in some company, if they were to adapt to
the system.

~~~
omnibrain
" some no name devs in some company" is not the same as "suicidal welfare
candidates". And doing an apprenticeship after you dropped out of university
is very usual in germany.

And then there is also former Telekom CEO Obermann who dropped out of
University to found his mobile phone business.

~~~
spacecowboy_lon
Single outliers don't make a trend and it looks like he made his mark in a non
german company

------
underlines
Switzerland has the same concept and we have some of the best professionals
coming from apprenticeships, we do 4 years here for some of the more
"complicated" fields like chemistry and software developer.

I am a Swiss software developer with the apprenticeship title and I tried to
find work abroad (mainly asia). Problem: Around the world that dual education
system is unknown or not well recognized and not even respected. Despite that
most apprenticeship professionals form Germany, Switzerland and Austria are
slightly "better" after finishing their education than most MD graduates!

In early 2014 the president of South Korea came to visit my vocational school
in Bern, Switzerland because they may implement the dual education system
according to the state news:
[https://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=en&msg-
id=...](https://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=en&msg-id=51711)

~~~
phlo
As underlines mentioned, Switzerland has a similar concept of apprenticeships.
The aspect I appreciate most (and as far as I am aware somewhat separates the
Swiss system from others) is the permeability between the trade and academic
spheres.

The vocational schooling (as discussed in the article) consists of two parts;
technical skills and general education. The latter part is divided into two
groups: apprentices are required to either complete the mandatory program or
invest some extra effort and earn a high school equivalency diploma
(Berufsmaturität) at the same time. Students who fail theirs drop to the
standard program and continue their apprenticeship.

Upon completion, those who chose to get a Berufsmatur hold the necessary
certifications to get into any University of Applied Sciences in their field
and pursue a Bachelor's or Master's degree. Access to general Universities is
limited to those holding a "proper" Matura, but there even is a one-year
program for people with a Berufsmatur to attain a full Matura. Universities
again are (to some degree) required to offer part-time programs, so studying
and working at the same time is possible.

Finally, students who finished an UAS BSc/MSc are generally admitted to
standard Universities. Some terms (between half a semester and a full year of
extra classes required) may apply, but there actually is a reasonable path
from dropping out of "proper" high school to getting an MSc or possibly even a
ScD/PhD.

Just like Tobi I consider myself a kinesthetic learner. School never really
piqued my interest, so my performance was lackluster. I went for an
apprenticeship instead, combined it with a Berufsmatur, later on with a BSc in
Computer Science and as I am now finishing my MLaw in Cybercrime/Information
Security, I am barely a year or two older than most of my peers but hold
(including the apprenticeship) around a decade of professional experience.
(Usually four instead of five days a week, so feel free to subtract a 20%
dicsount.)

------
k__
Funny thing is, getting an apprenticeship is almost harder than getting in
university here in Germany. At least of you wanna do it in a good company.

Also, I find the talking about how dropping out of school will sound strange
to americans funny. I got the impression that dropping out and doing your own
thing is more appreciated in the US than in germany where ever job offering
requires a degree or two...

------
blisterpeanuts
Interesting article; thanks for posting it. I don't know that much about
Germany's apprenticeship system except that it's a much more well established
and accepted concept than in the U.S.

Northeastern University in Boston, Massachusetts, has an internship program
where engineering undergrads spend a semester working at a real company. The
companies benefit from free labor, and the students benefit from real world
experience and resume building. It's amazing to me that this system isn't more
widely adopted. Some people claim the students should be paid a "fair salary"
or some such arguments.

Anyway, the Germans must be doing something right. Germany is still the #3 or
#4 industrial producer in the world (China has surpassed them in recent years)
and their products are still very high quality. Apart from the obvious example
of top notch automobiles, I'm mostly familiar with German stage equipment --
microphone stands, wireless systems, instrument cases, etc.--and I've found
them to be just really good quality, designed to last, and very usable.

~~~
spacecowboy_lon
That is actulay very common in the UK to do an extended period working for a
real company as part of your degree we had some very good university students
at BT including one from ENA!

------
xal
I'm the OP. Happy to answer questions about this.

~~~
hkarthik
You mentioned wanting to create a similar environment at Shopify. How has that
been implemented and how is it working out?

~~~
xal
Frustrating. We've build the environment ( dealt with the supply side ) but we
can't bootstrap the demand. Parents are fundamentally opposed to the idea of
their kids starting their career before they have the degree.

~~~
ZeroFries
How would you feel about a software dev with 1-3 year professional experience
and no computer science degree joining an apprenticeship type program to go
from intermediate to advanced level? Shopify has interns, is this what was
intended?

~~~
xal
Yes, we hide the apprenticeship approach behind internships for cultural
compatibility.

~~~
spacecowboy_lon
You do know that "intern" is geting a bad rep as a method for employers to get
free work - id call it trainee or somthing less loaded.

------
jarcane
There is a program like this here in Finland as well, and I have been highly
intrigued by it, and I intend to discuss the option with my employment adviser
this week.

I am 33 years old. I simply do not have the time to pursue a full degree, and
I frankly had a mixed experience in college/uni and am not necessarily in a
hurry to do it again.

At the same time though, I've a strong interest in some potentially academic
subjects and I sometimes find myself doubting I can make a go of it purely on
self-study, so I'm a little lost for where to go next or if I should even just
dive into paid work.

------
bootload
an interesting reference mentioned by @visakanv in, _" Peter Thiel's Dropout
Club"_ post ~
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9020043](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9020043)

------
showsover
>It was the perfect environment for me, I learned a lot, and I am eternally
thankful to have chosen that path. If only more countries struggling with
dropout rates and job creation would give their students a similar choice.

How does this help job creation? Does the author mean the overhead of training
interns?

~~~
rhia
The author probably means that it makes a lot of sense of offer people who
don't want to go to uni a better perspective than working tough manual labour
or minimum wage service industry jobs for the rest of their life. Not every
degree currently taught at university is really necessary to perform well in
the jobs that those graduates normally get. America would do well to re-
evalute the necessity of degrees when vocational training can produce equally
skilled workers at a much lower cost for the economy as a whole.

------
peter303
Programming was usually taught in trade schools in the USA during 1960s and
1970s. That aspect slowed down some schools like MIT declaring computer
science as a full-fledged major until 1980.

~~~
hga
Nope, at least not in MIT's case, which would hardly be paying attention to
trade schools while they were inventing a very large fraction of the field! I
can find out more precisely when the 6-3 major was created if you wish, but
I'm almost certain it was before 1980 (at the very least I think I would have
remembered it was brand new when I declared 6-3 at the end of the 79-80
academic year).

Any delay happened because CS departments, at least in those days, came from
either Math or EE departments, the latter in MIT's case. So people initially
just got majors in the original field before a separate degree was broken out.

And in the case of MIT and perhaps other departments starting from EE (I get
this impression about UCB going only by required undergraduate courses), there
is no "pure" CS degree, since the department believes you can't entirely
separate it from EE, and vice versa. So students have to do core courses in
both (or now 2 ones that combine both), and the degrees are in both, with an
emphasis in one or the other or neither. As of later, the latter course was
preferred by most majors.

------
unimportant
German companies are totally backwards compared to US companies and usually
managed in rather totalitarian ways.

This might work for someone who does not mind this or who has a place to stay
while earning less than 1k USD a month for years, but it certainly did not
work for me and I choose min wage jobs and self learning instead. Self
learners are considered unemployable in Germany, but it gets one a fair chance
in the UK or Ireland.

~~~
dghf
> German companies are totally backwards compared to US companies and usually
> managed in rather totalitarian ways.

Can you give some specifics?

~~~
unimportant
Backwards in terms of largely using outdated technologies, requiring you to
send a printed CV with your picture (slowly changing now), very formal hiring
process, unwilling to hire anyone without a matching degree rand
certifications regardless of skills, largely unrealistic expectations
regarding work experience and skills (requirering 5 years of iPhone dev
experience when it was just out for a year was common), in larger companies a
PhD is needed to get promoted above certain positions etc. etc.

Europe truely is the "old world", with London being the only place where
startups have a somewhat realistic chance of getting funded on reasonable
terms, however entry level developer salaries are still poverty level in
London for the first 3 years or so, as there are more candidates than jobs,
unlike in the US.

~~~
marrs
Last I checked, entry level salaries for a graduate were about £30k. For a
non-grad that would drop to around £20k, which is still more than all the debt
you have to take on to go to university.

~~~
unimportant
20k is barely liveable in London and if you get laid off before you make
significantly more, then you'll have a serious problem if you don't qualify
for welfare yet. 30k is already on the high end. In SF, which has similar
rents, entry level devs mostly make 70-80k USD, with 60k being rock bottom.

~~~
iolothebard
There are no "entry level" devs in SF. Either you're hired at a big
firm/company (google/twitter/facebook) and you start off in the 150-200k/year
range or you have experience.

All the entry jobs are filled by H1b, and most the non entry jobs as well.

Worked as a consultant/contractor in the Bay Area for ~3 years and GTFO. I
made over 100 but less than 150 with 15 years experience.

------
spacecowboy_lon
Unfortunetly this is a well meaning article but totally misses the point that
Germany has a unique apprenticeship system - in English speaking countries
techies have enough trouble with low social status compared to other
professions. Let alone the disastrous effect of that Bloody “apprentice”
program the BBC puts out which has done god only knows how much damage to the
term Apprentice

I started out on what some might call an apprenticeship technically a
professional apprentice – ie the one you did after doing a trade
apprenticeship and sittng half way between trade and a university degree – but
none of us who where all bar one all working for elite organizations (mostly
in the defence and rnd sector) would have said we where NOT! apprentices we
where Junior members of the Mechanical engineers thank you very much.

How ever there are some major downsides to the Ultra rigid German school
system you get pigenholed into one track or the other at an early age and its
I understand very hard to break out an I believe until the EU put its foot
down impossible.

The problem with this rigid streaming is you decide very early what kids are
going to do in later life and as one German HN commenter said its funny how it
is the “brown” skinned Germans who seem to make up most of the vocational
schools - and you can see the same in the USA and the UK with Black Kids
pigeonholed as vocational track.

For example a mate of mine works for one of the big 4 consultancies and he
mentions some BME kids and he said its tragic that the schools aren’t prepping
the kids to go into those professions.

~~~
xal
I totally missed the point because I didn't make it about race?

~~~
spacecowboy_lon
No its mainly primarily about damaging the social staus of the technical
profesion in Anglo Saxon Contrys - but the fact that school systems like
germany that force kids into one track do descriminate against those who dont
fit in is very widley known.

You where also asuming the the system Germay has evolved would work in other
countrys with aparently no undertsanding of how Industrial relations and
socity has evolved.

