
Ukraine crisis: Parliament abolishes anti-protest law - tomh
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25923199
======
girvo
I've found it interesting that nearly every anti-protestor comments about the
Ukraine situation here have been Russians (as per their profiles). A solid
75%+ anyway, for the last three threads. Why is that?

~~~
austenallred
I don't know if I can answer your question, but I lived in eastern Ukraine for
two years (yes, I speak fluent Russian), and my frustration with the media and
journalism there has sent me on a three year (so far) journey to make everyday
people the driving force of journalism instead of governments and
corporations.

And please take note, it's impossible to speak for a group of people or boil
down what's happening to anything concrete when it's very disparate and unique
to each individual. But I'll point out a few trends I've seen.

For some background, eastern Ukraine is very pro-Russian, and was (and is)
very pro-Yanukovytch. The majority of the people I talked to pined for the
days of the Soviet Union, when bread was cheap, everyone had what they needed,
etc. They viewed the fall of the soviet union as a psychological infiltration
from the west, and, apart from a short rendezvous to defeat Hitler, the west
is still the enemy and full of corrupt capitalist blood suckers (which, to be
fair, can be not-too-far from the truth at times). It's hard for most
westerners to imagine that many of the major cities in Ukraine have a 30 ft +
statue of Lenin or that many of the major streets are named "Lenin" street,
but it's not uncommon for me to see poems or images praising Stalin from my
Russian Facebook (or Vkontakte) friends. The Soviet Union was the good ol'
days, not grouped together with pre-WWII Germany as it often is in the States.
Stalin is decidedly not Hitler. I include this information not to say that
anti-protest comments come from Soviets/Communists, but the influence of the
Soviet Union and how information was relayed still lingers, even today.

When most of the people there, especially the older generations, talked about
the media, they would often reference a transmission from Moscow (передача из
Москвы) as the only source of reliable information. Think of it as "published
in the New York Times." And bear in mind that the New York Times has been just
as involved in Propaganda as was Pravda in its heyday.

The battle, in the mind of Russians, is one of information, and of each side
trying to deceive the other. Americans look at pro-Communist posters as
"propaganda" but at the western side's as simply "promotional posters."
Russians see it as an ideological battle being fought with information.

For many Russians this is the same battle being fought. It's not
revolutionaries vs. evil dictator, it's east vs. west. It's Russia vs. the
Europe/United States. And when a battle of information leads to such sharp
contrasts, you defend your side, in a similar way to how Republicans defended
George Bush when he did stupid things and Democrats defend Barack Obama when
he does stupid things. It's not about the particular circumstance, it's about
ideology. You'll notice a common thread of "Well, sometimes Russia sucks, but
America sucks sometimes too." Which, again, is completely fair. And again,
this is not something that _only_ happens in Russia.

But this leads to trying to sway the facts in favor of one side, and that
often leads to gross misinterpretation of what is actually going on. Russia
Today and Pravda are state-sponsored PR organizations dressed up as
journalistic institutions. When the protests began, according to RT it was "a
handful of people" gathered, angry at "a failed trade law," and not the
bubbling over of frustration as a completely corrupt President threw his
enemies in jail and deepened relations with Putin.

Take, for example, the naked protestor who was mocked by police, photographed,
slapped, kicked, and put in a van (graphic video:)
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSt4kAItj4Q](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSt4kAItj4Q).
Many of my Russian friends would tell you he was trying to set himself on
fire, the police saved him, took pictures "in memoriam," gave him a few
friendly slaps, and let him go. They would leave comments like "Let him burn
next time!" or "Be careful, police, you're only giving the terrorists more
psychological ammunition!"

So, to answer your question, in the mind of a Russian it's because we're still
fighting a war of information, and the west likes to deceive and destroy
Russia psychologically. They defend their ideology the same way we defend
ours, and sometimes information and facts are left out to dry.

~~~
maratd
> It's Russia vs. the Europe/United States.

So that's one way to look at it. Here's another. It's Ukraine vs Russia.
Ukraine has a culture, a history, a language. That culture, history, and
language is UKRAINIAN. Not Russian.

During the USSR, Ukrainian was essentially taught as a second language.
Russian was more cosmopolitan. That's like having English taught as a primary
language in Paris.

After the fall of the USSR, Ukraine started clawing back its own heritage and
of course, there is friction. You're witnessing that friction.

~~~
austenallred
I agree with you. My comment was from the point of view of a Russian who was
posting anti-protestor comments. They would see Ukraine as one of the former
Soviet republics trying to westernize itself, not as a country trying to
return to autonomy.

And to be fair, there is some truth in framing the debate as Russia vs.
Europe/US (as opposed to Russia vs. Ukraine). Despite the fact that signing a
trade agreement with the EU is hardly "joining the west," Ukraine will go
bankrupt if they're not bailed out or supported by either the West or Russia.
Selecting one or the other implies alliance and political (if not economic)
debt.

------
noswi
How to deal with the discontent:

1\. Make things worse for everybody, much worse,

2\. After public outrage, return things to how they were before #1,

3\. Profit, while the public rejoices and celebrates a victory.

~~~
choult
There's more to this than just the anti-protest laws - what kind of protests
do you think they were trying to prevent in the first place?

------
brown9-2
_Parliament - holding an emergency debate on the crisis - voted by 361 to 2 to
repeal the protest law._

How many of those MPs voted for the law when it was passed two weeks ago? The
article is missing that context.

~~~
volodia
Officially, 180-something, but they voted by show of hand (because the
opposition prevented proper voting procedures), which is illegitimate, and a
blatant violation of protocol. Moreover, photographs prove that most
government deputies didn't event bother to raise their hands, and the
parliamentary speaker simply came up with a number.

~~~
mercer
Wow. Does that kind of thing happen often? I didn't think it would be so
blatant.

------
viach
That's weird.

\- Ukraine needed to adapt their laws to EU standards before signing the
association with EU.

\- Pro-EU protesters fight against these laws.

I'm lost here.

~~~
PavlovsCat
This hasn't been about "pro-EU protests" for a long time now. There were these
protests, end of November 2013, they were brutally attacked and made illegal,
and _then_ the really big protests began, against the police brutality and the
corrupt regime.

The anti-protest laws were made (they didn't even bother to count the votes)
1.5 months into that. To suggest they were created to allow signing the treaty
means you're very lost indeed.

~~~
viach
Ok, so it's not about these laws anymore? Lets take them back then?

And why these protests began in 2014 (not 1 or 2 years before), occasionally
before signing papers with EU and exactly in pre-new-year period?

~~~
PavlovsCat
Because that violent dispersal of peaceful protests (pro EU treaty) were the
straw that broke the camels back, and from then on one thing lead to another.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan)

------
nmc
A shame that took two weeks and four deaths.

~~~
kushti
In US and EU similar laws being enforcing for decades

~~~
philhippus
So? The Ukranians didn't want the US and EU laws for their country.

~~~
Mikeb85
The point is the filter the western media uses to vilify Yanukovych for
passing laws that exist everywhere in the western world.

~~~
marcosdumay
They are (probably, but some times it's more complicated than that) just as
bad at all those places that have them.

Yanukovych is still as much a vilain.

------
Mikeb85
If you actually read the laws that Yanukovych passed, they were hardly
extreme, and are close to what is in place in most Western countries already.

Limits on shutting down infrastructure, arming yourself in a protest, wearing
body armour, inciting violence, and setting up tents in public areas... Things
which are illegal everywhere in the West.

But everyone gets their news through a filter here, no one reads primary
sources, no one reads Ukrainian or Russian or even bothers with translation
tools...

Edit - love the downvotes for suggesting people look into primary sources.
Guess people love being sheep.

~~~
computer
Yeah, because 2 years in prison is a completely reasonable sentence for
researching the background of police officers or politicians, i.e. looking
into corruption. And 10 years of prison for being at a protest is hardly
extreme as well. Or prison for wearing head protection when the police is
shooting at you.

~~~
Mikeb85
> Yeah, because 2 years in prison is a completely reasonable sentence for
> researching the background of police officers or politicians, i.e. looking
> into corruption. And 10 years of prison for being at a protest is hardly
> extreme as well. Or prison for wearing head protection when the police is
> shooting at you.

You've basically proven my point.

Step 1: Read the Ukrainian laws.

Step 2: Read the laws of your own country.

Step 3: Compare.

~~~
IgorPartola
Please stop trolling. There are always places where laws are worse than
somewhere else. Just because an unjust law exists somewhere else in the world
does not make it less unjust.

~~~
Mikeb85
Again, the laws in Ukraine were no harsher than what the US or Canada has. Not
like we're a terrible place to live...

~~~
IgorPartola
Again, these laws are unjust everywhere. Also remember that Ukraine does not
have "Supreme Court". If the government passes a law that is unjust (talking
about the EU treating now), the people have a mandate to protest. That is the
checks and balances system at play there. Making protests illegal there means
that you remove one of the main checks.

~~~
Mikeb85
> Making protests illegal there means that you remove one of the main checks.

Again, the laws didn't make protests illegal. Merely made some of the more
unsavoury activities associate with riots illegal...

Read primary sources, I can't stress that enough.

