
The Most and Least Expensive Cars to Maintain - zabielski
https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-and-least-expensive-cars-to-maintain-by-maddy-martin
======
femto
The results for Toyota are a reflection of their dedication to production
engineering [1], dented by recent recalls. The popular view of bleeding-edge
engineering is putting exciting new features into customer's hands. An
alternative view (which can be just as satisfying from an engineering
perspective) is creating a bleeding-edge factory to produce millions of
otherwise mundane products that "just work". As an aside, there's a certain
smugness (and sense of power?) that goes with producing a product that the end
user takes for granted but you know that few other people could produce.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System)

~~~
paulgerhardt
>An alternative view...is creating a bleeding-edge factory...

This is not what Toyota does. VW does this[1]. Tesla does this[2]. But not
Toyota [3].

Watch those videos. Which ones are full of robots and computers? Which ones
are all manual labor? My tone should give it away.

The Toyota Production System link you cite was heavily developed by Taiichi
Ohno. You can learn more in his 1978 book: "Toyota Production System". There's
a whole chapter on procurement. Taiichi san's very, very strong belief is:

    
    
      When purchasing new equipment, we must consider buying the
      minimum capable of meeting our requirements. Reliability and
      ease of maintenance should be considered before features.
      Bells and whistles can often be added later if the need 
      arises. We want to avoid buying features "just in case." We   
      must consider up-time, utilization and quality factors when 
      making equipment choices. 
    

Further emphasis is put on making old equipment last longer. Less 'bleeding
edge'. More 'minimum viable' meets 'minimum risk'.

Design emphasis is very conservative. Material choice is very conservative.
You will not find innovation. You will find reliability. You will find
simplification. You will find repeatability. As far as risk goes, Toyota is
the bond market of the automotive industry.

They make a vehicle in nearly every category. It is a standout in none of
them. The engines are bulkier. They are less fuel efficient. They underperform
in nearly every metric. They are costly for their performance specs. But they
last.

The interesting thing about their production line system is how much is
focused on the people on the line rather than automating the process on the
line. It's the YC version of "Talk to your users" \- except applied to workers
on the line. Most companies try to automate this step out. Toyota does remove
their workers - but only to get more training. This English translation[4] of
a Le Monde artice from a few years ago goes into extensive detail about the
"Takumi" system of training master craftsmen.

Toyota gets a lot of deserved credit for making great products - how they make
those products is frequently misunderstood - famously so by Detroit in the
'80's. Their process is counter-intuitive and worth a study. I recommend
starting with Taiichi's book mentioned above.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlIyDhss4Cg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlIyDhss4Cg)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOXaBto7giY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOXaBto7giY)

[3]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg5RlapdEtE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg5RlapdEtE)

[4] [http://www.worldcrunch.com/tech-science/takumi-
toyota-039-s-...](http://www.worldcrunch.com/tech-science/takumi-
toyota-039-s-secret-weapons-to-train-the-robots/industry-car-technology-
unemployment-robots-takumi/c4s16867/)

[5] [http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2014/08/18/face-
aux-r...](http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2014/08/18/face-aux-robots-
toyota-rehabilite-le-role-des-experts-maison_4472804_3234.html)

~~~
Gravityloss
Too bad their overall engineering and manufacturing quality is let down by two
factors: The cars are uncomfortable for tall people. The body rusts a lot
faster than some competition. (Highlighted by the otherwise high reliability)

Both would seem to be relatively trivial issues to fix. After all, many other
manufacturers have done that.

~~~
true_religion
Most people in the world aren't tall. It'd seem counter intuitive to create a
car specifically so it can fit such a small group of people.

~~~
Gravityloss
But for the tall buyers it's close to a deal breaker. It's not like I'm 2
meters, just slightly above average in my country. I love Japanese
manufacturing, engineering and design. I have three Japanese guitars. However
it's less likely I will ever buy a Toyota. Attitudes can change but I'm not
going to get any shorter soon.

In today's world the brands resemble each other a lot, and are in fierce
competition about some percentage points of fuel consumption, to the point of
cheating. But most of the things that are mentioned in the advertisements or
reviews don't matter if the seat is slightly uncomfortable, or you have to
bend your knees a little bit more, or your shoe scratches the foot space
ceiling if you're not careful. Indeed, a cramped car can scuff your leather
shoe. How is it not possible to find a few centimeters more in a vehicle
that's 4 meters long? It makes me feel they are either incompetent or just
don't plain care. Compare that to something like even eighties-nineties
vintage Volkswagen Golfs. They are not big cars, but I wouldn't even keep the
driver's seat all the way back - they had _excess_ space. Bliss. Every car has
it's assortment of design mistakes, you just get to choose what they are. It's
a bit counter intuitive considering how many billions are spent per model, but
I guess the designers still have a self centered approach.

------
zippergz
I think I brought this up last time there was a post about Your Mechanic. But
I am still curious about it. I wonder how much their data is skewed by the
fact that they're a third-party mechanic. I don't think they necessarily see a
representative sample of cars and problems, especially in the early years. I
have owned different kinds of German cars for the past 15 years, and they've
all gone to the dealership for the vast majority of service for at least the
first 5-7 years.

I only take new-ish cars to a third party if I need something the dealership
doesn't specialize in (body work, tires, etc.). I'm not that price-sensitive
about service, and I like the dealership experience (nice new loaner cars, all
the parts are on hand, etc.). So I'd wonder what it is that drives people to
Your Mechanic, and if that affects the volume and type of problems they see.
For example, maybe people are more likely to use them if they have just
received a large estimate for a major problem from the dealer. Or people who
are more price sensitive go there, which might skew the mix of models they
see. And so on.

While this is interesting data, I have a hard time considering it
representative of reliability as a whole without some additional context.

~~~
asimuvPR
The data is good. I have been in the auto repair industry (in various
forms)for a long time and can attest that the results are correct.

~~~
esaym
So have I and I can say I disagree with most all the data.

Take the section "Brands most likely not to start", and you see Mercury at the
top. Strange, they only have a couple of models I wonder which it is? So you
look at the section "Models most likely not to start", and no Mercury model is
even listed. Instead Hyundai is at the top and it wasn't even on the first
chart.

They seem to really love throwing Mercury under the bus with comments about
how the company closed doors (had nothing to do with reliability, people today
just don't want 20mpg vehicles) and never mind the several million mercury
taxi cabs. And at least with the Grand Marquis, it is nearly bullet proof. Its
design has changed very little over the last 20 years and the 4.6L engine will
run 400k miles as long as you change the oil. And when something does go
wrong, most parts are cheap and easy to replace.

And the "Brands that cost the most to maintain" section can be deceiving. For
instance Honda is at the bottom making it sound like a good deal. Yet most all
Hondas (and most Asian cars) use a timing belt instead of a chain:
[http://yourcarangel.com/2015/06/honda-timing-belt-timing-
cha...](http://yourcarangel.com/2015/06/honda-timing-belt-timing-chain-list/)
That has to be changed every 50K miles because the risk of it snapping is much
higher after that. And if it does snap, you could very well be looking at
needing a new top half of your motor. I refuse to buy any car that has a belt
instead of a chain. The only advantage is it saves some noise and a little bit
of gas. But the disadvantages far out way that.

~~~
foobarqux
So which used models are the cheapest to maintain in your experience? What
about total ownership cost?

~~~
ArkyBeagle
I have a very low sample size, but I bought a Nissan Hardbody (what later
became a Frontier ) in 1993, and I only had to put a transmission in it
besides the ordinary wear cycle parts. It's still running like a top, 23 years
later. I donated it to my Dad, who assigned to a nephew ( his grandkid ) .

The transmission is on me. I drove it like I stole it for ten years before I
needed one. It's an essentially underpowered truck but it goes like stink off
the line. I was in the traffic hell that was Dallas.

I bought , of course, another Frontier. It has two or three disappointments (
no torque in top gear @ 55 MPH ( so push the overdrive disable, duh!) ; a bad
tint job; mileage not correlated with ... activity ).

I expect it to outlast me. I think I'd have to go with a Cadillac type car to
find something more comfortable on the freeway ( but it's not quiet by any
stretch).

In that span, we probably went through three (really two) cars for my wife.
She's settled on a '03 Ford Escape which seems to avoid the reaper so far. But
it's needed expensive repairs. We love it anyway, even though it tried to kill
me one time ( a piece of plastic in the inexplicably convoluted throttle
arrangement broke, and the throttle body went wide open. No problem; I managed
to use neutral and the key switch to get it safely grounded before calling a
tow truck. But geez, Ford... _four_ throttle cables ?)

~~~
asimuvPR
I've also owned a hardbody. Thing was a tank. The vg30 engine was
indestructible. I sold it to my brother and somehow my dad ended yo buying it.
In the process it got restored and will probably last like 20 more years.
Parts are plentiful due to it sharing some with the z31 300zx.

The escape issues with the cable is widely know. I avoid them.

------
tuna-piano
It's kind of crazy to think of it this way- most cars on the list have one
engine to think about.

But the car with the lowest maintenance cost- the Toyota Prius, which had the
full gas engine system PLUS an electric battery+motor, and the complexities
managing the two together. Truly remarkable. Toyota should be really proud.

~~~
rcthompson
I don't think the hybrid nature of the Prius simply means that there's more
opportunities for things to go wrong. The fact that there's a large battery
capable of supplying power means that the engine RPMs don't have to spike as
much when you floor the accelerator, so the presence of a battery could
significantly reduce the overall wear and tear on the internal combustion
engine and thus reduce the overall need for repairs, despite increasing the
number of parts.

~~~
2sk21
I have a Prius that i drive daily so I can add a few more points: \- Engine
shuts off a lot during normal gentle driving. \- The air conditioning
compressor is electrically driven and only come on as necessary \-
Regenerative braking reduces wear on brakes. I am still on original brakes
after 72000 miles.

~~~
riprowan
> Regenerative braking reduces wear on brakes. I am still on original brakes
> after 72000 miles.

Wut.

~~~
rcthompson
My understanding is that the process of converting kinetic energy back to some
form of potential energy in a regenerative braking system doesn't actually
employ the brake pads at all. So the brake pads are only used when the driver
pushes the brake pedal past the maximum capacity of the regenerative braking
system. Depending on driving conditions, and especially if the driver
maintains a proper following distance, this could be fairly rare.

------
UnoriginalGuy
This is one reason why I don't buy American. I actually really like Ford's
vehicles (the infotainment system might be the best available) but they
consistently get bad reliability scores along with other American brands
(Chrysler, Dodge, etc).

Why don't American manufacturers work to improve their reliability? People
really are buying Toyota/Honda/Mazda for that reason. And while Kia might be
unreliable as all heck, they come with the best included warranty
available[0].

American vehicles actually cost more too in many cases, so you're paying for
the "privilege" of getting a less reliable vehicle.

[0]
[http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=buy&story=ma...](http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=buy&story=manWarranty&subject=warranty)

~~~
busterarm
Ford has improved their reliability considerably, post-bailout. Ford is really
the only example I can see of the bailout doing anything good.

Pre-bailout, Ford was pretty abysmal. I would actually say they were less
reliable than GM. They took the influx of cash and overhauled their entire
manufacturing AND design processes to turn out some great cars. The only thing
in their lineup looking bleak to me is the Escape (ugh, just no).

The problem is that they're still pretty cheap on their interiors and panels
tend to come loose and break a lot. American consumers tend to value interior
over most other car features unfortunately. Modern Fords, save for the Escape,
are pretty reliable and Honda has shown themselves to be much less so in
recent years. Mazda is still too small volume to matter.

tl;dr: Ford is great now, Toyota is still on top, Honda is majorly slipping
and GM still blows goats.

~~~
mdip
I've heard a lot of complaining about Honda lately which bugs me. I actually
purchased a Honda motorcycle[0] because of _tens_ of industry reviews lauding
the quality and reliability and avoided a Harley at least in part because of
the "It's a Harley. Sometimes they stall."[1] (that, and I'm a twig of a man
so I'd look _ridiculous_ on a Harley).

[0] Specifically, I purchased a model they'd brought over from Europe (good
sized engine, sport/touring, 100+ miles to the gallon but "you don't buy a
bike to save on gas") and the reviews for the European model were universally
good.

[1] This was an actual quote from the guy at the Harley dealership after he
succeeded in starting a floor model only to have it crap out after 5 seconds
of idling. He thought I'd be impressed with how loud the damn thing was.
Little did he know I wasn't looking to be that guy, I just always wanted a
motorcycle and the bike I purchased is exceptionally quiet.

~~~
busterarm
We're not talking about motorcycles though. Their bikes are fantastic.

~~~
soylentcola
Yep. My 2009 Shadow isn't gonna win any awards in either handling or speed or
even "coolest sounding exhaust rumble" but the damn thing is near bulletproof.
Shaft drive is a little heavier but removes the need for chain/belt
maintenance. It's been knocked over by teenage vandals and still started right
back up with no issues. It was my first "proper" bike (after screwing around
town on 50cc scooters) and it probably won't be my last but it's been a
workhorse, no doubt.

------
spydum
Did I misread?

>In order to estimate annual maintenance costs, we found the amount spent on
every two oil changes (as oil changes are generally done every six months).

This cost only considers oil changes? That is not a realistic cost of total
maintenance over 10 years.

~~~
rm999
No, that makes no sense because you wouldn't see that kind of variance in the
prices.

I think in your quote they're saying they're using oil changes as a unit of
time. This is because oil changes are usually done on a regular cycles, and
because when you get your oil changed you often get your other maintenance
done.

~~~
ams6110
Depending on whether you use cheap conventional oil or expensive full
synthetic, your oil change interval could vary by a factor of 3 or so.

~~~
feld
Keep in mind there's a difference between full synthetic and 100% synthetic

------
tobyjsullivan
I'm really confused by this data. How could the average cost of the most
expensive model be less than the cost of the most expensive brand?

For example, I'm taking issue with all BMW's costing $17,800 over 10 years on
average. Yet, the BMW model with the highest maintenance cost, the 328i, only
costs $15,600 over 10 years.

Edit: Tried, quite unsuccessfully, to improve clarity

~~~
Jupe
Ever priced an intake manifold (or are they using plenums now?) for a BMW? The
parts alone set you back a pretty penny, then there is labor.

~~~
tobyjsullivan
I may have miscommunicated but I wasn't concerned with the realism of the
costs - I was questioning the relation of the values.

If you have two sets of numbers, S and T, then I'm quite confident MEAN(S ∪ T)
must fall between MIN(MEAN(S), MEAN(T)) and MAX(MEAN(S), MEAN(T)) inclusive.

In this case, the costs of maintenance for a given vehicle model are the sets
and, so, the cost for a brand as a whole would be (S ∪ T ∪ V...).

~~~
Jupe
Yeah, I got ya now. The problem is that repairs can continue. $450 for brakes?
Ok. $800 for tires + alignment. $125 for a new battery. $600 to replace a bent
rim and it's pair. When data like this indicates that the maintenance cost of
BMWs or other vehicles is higher, it's not just a question of quality: many
times the parts + labor are just more expensive.

~~~
runT1ME
No, you don't. He's saying the math doesn't add up in terms of how they
calculated the mean of the brand and the 'highest' avg. mean of the models (in
that brand).

~~~
Jupe
Yes, I do... the single model 328i, if it is in fact the worst of the BMW
models, should be above the average cost of the BMW models. According to the
first table, it isn't. They made a mistake.

------
westwooded
Tough to trust this analysis... For example Cadillac is the #3 worst brand yet
there are no Cadillac models in the worst 20 models.

~~~
chiph
Anecdotal evidence - my sister had a 1st generation SRX sport-utility, and for
whatever reason, Cadillac decided to put different tire widths on the front &
rear wheels, with directional tread. This means you can't rotate the tires.
It's also an all-wheel-drive model. So if you have an alignment issue that
causes tire wear, or a puncture that can't be repaired, you can't just buy one
tire -- you have to buy a full set of four at $200 (front) and $250 (rear)
each.

Repair costs like that adds up quickly. Like the $1200 3rd row seat motor that
died. She started calling it the thousand-dollar-car, since any repairs were
around that price.

~~~
stonogo
This is incredibly common among high-end luxury cars. The better handling that
results from staggered wheel sizes is considered a luxury. The owner is
assumed to be willing to shoulder a higher maintenance cost burden in return
for a superior driving experience.

None of what you describe is unique to Cadillac -- this is what it is to own a
luxury automobile. If it is not worth the price, don't buy one.

~~~
chiph
The Lexus SUVs that they have owned didn't do this. The tires for them were an
odd size and usually had to be ordered, but all four wheels had the same size
tire -- with standard (non-directional) tread. They still faced the "must
replace all four" issue because of the full-time 4WD system, but at least they
could be rotated to get full life out of them.

Which may be one reason why Lexus unexpectedly has a good total cost of
ownership.

BTW, the Lexii had far fewer squeaks and rattles after 6 years than the
Cadillac did, and had a much quieter ride overall.

~~~
ams6110
The Lexus SUVs are Toyota 4-Runners with leather and gizmos.

~~~
rodgerd
You say that like "this luxury SUV is built on a bulletproof base with the
gimmicks luxury car owners want" is somehow a bad thing.

------
beloch
"This data reveals which companies live up to their reputation for reliability
(Toyota), which brands sacrifice reliability for prestige (BMW and Mercedes-
Benz), and which models deserved to be discontinued (the Hummer 3)."

Ouch. There's one more reason to laugh at people who bought the H3.

------
peckrob
Purely anecdotally, my ten year old Toyota Tacoma is the best vehicle I've
ever owned, so I'm not really surprised to see it at number five on that list.
Had one major problem in ten years (clutch springs broke at 60k). Otherwise
with routine maintenance (oil changes, tune ups and tires) it just keeps
working.

Ten loads of mulch in a weekend? No problem. Hauling a half ton of Bawls
energy drinks to a different state over wet mountain roads? An adventure but
no issues. Moved my (now) wife to town in 2007 and moved all our stuff when we
bought our first home. We took our daughter home from the hospital in it. It
almost feels like part of the family.

I kinda want a newer car, but I can't really justify it because my Tacoma just
keeps working every single day (and it's paid off). Toyota can make a really
good vehicle.

------
usaphp
Does it take into account the fact that BMW offers free service (even oil
changes) for 3 years (36,000 miles) and on top of that you can get relatively
cheap extensions, and if you buy a certified pre-owned used car you get a
"free" extra 2 years /50K miles on top of the original warranty and you can
even get an extra protection plan for 6 years/100K miles.

~~~
runT1ME
I also wonder how that affects what the total amount 'billed' ends up being.
For instance, if BMW corporate is footing the bill for all the
maintenance/warranty issues for the first 3/4 years of ownership, are they
more likely to 'repair' minor issues without asking the customer?

Where as say a Volkswagon owner may not bother to have the dealership spend 3
hours diagnosing a squeak or minor rough idle knowing they have to foot the
bill?

------
ifoundthetao
Man, it would have been nice to have text instead of images for those tables.
Would have made me more confident in my searching through them.

------
vanilla-almond
It's interesting to compare this US survey with this one from a 2015 UK survey
of 50,000 car users.

In summary, Japanese cars were deemed the most reliable and relatively cheap
to maintain, while German cars were the least reliable according to the
survey's respondents.

The rankings were calculated according to how often a car needed to be
repaired, and the cost of the repairs.

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32332210](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32332210)

~~~
joe_the_user
I can't see how any of these lists could be at all useful.

Each manufacturer produces a variety of models and the reliability of each
model can vary by the year.

If you want to buy a car, look at the model-years in your price range and then
research which of those is reliable or a lemon.

------
fmsf
I would be curious of data on entry level sport cars that people use in
commutes/daily driving i.e.: porsche

~~~
adrianggg
I have daily driver Porsche under warranty. I don't have hard numbers but it's
been very reasonable. I had two certified pre-owned BMWs and never paid a cent
for their entire lifetime. Porsche has cost me for tires but was brand new and
under warranty. Fuel pump failed, replaced under warranty. I drive it
everyday. It's brilliant. German engineering is great. Thinking S class
Mercedes next. Is this helpful? or just bragging? haha :-)

~~~
brisance
Don't know about the current S class but the previous models were plagued with
electronic issues. Source: father owned one and extended family owned every
single one of them.

------
kazinator
I had a 6th gen Civic (DX Hatchback) for 7 years between 2005 and 2011. Most
of what it needed, I did myself, cheaply:

\- cracked exhaust manifold, replaced with boneyard unit, $80. Before that I
went to the dealer, and they quoted me over $300 for a new one. Get this: they
were so nice when I said I will probably get a used one, they gave me the new
nuts for the joint between the manifold and the A pipe I would need. "Hey, you
will likely need these; they are special heat-resistant nuts that don't
expand."

\- bushing gone on rear suspension arm causing clunks and squeaks: boneyard
good part, $10. Couldn't remove a bolt in the suspension without an air
ratchet: I broke two cheap socket wrench bits trying! I paid an air-
conditioning garage to help me out, $40.

\- broken manual window crank on driver's side door. $10 for used one.

\- The ignition switch started cutting out. I Googled up that this was a
secret warranty (big safety issue), and got free fix at the dealership.

\- I paid a few hundred for an all-wheel brake job. At one point, the master
relay went, so I paid a few hundred to get that taken care of. Car was
completely dead; had to be towed.

\- Fixed water leaking into the trunk. This ingress occurs through the tail
light apertures! The fix was a $7 tub of silicone caulk on both sides of the
tail light gaskets, with plenty left over to do a bathtub or three. The trunk
was dry after that.

\- Moisture destroyed the particle board trunk floor that covers the spare
tire. Made a sturdy new one out of 6mm thick plastic: $30 bucks for that, plus
labor.

\- Cracked radiator: good used one for under 100 bucks.

\- All fluid and other changes: engine oil, manual transmission, air filter,
oil filter, etc, myself.

\- Paid a few hundred for a timing belt and water pump change.

\- O2 sensor changes, self, < $100 a pop for two of them.

\- Spark plugs: don't remember; inexpensive.

~~~
bane
I had a 7th gen Civic myself from 2002-2015. Not a terribly pretty car, but
absolutely rock solid until about 2014. The cost of ownership was pennies per
mile and was absolutely trouble free for the first 12 years I owned it. Other
than normal oil changes and similar maintenance, I never had a single reason
to take it to a mechanic.

The first time I did, the car stalled out in the middle of the road, the tow
fee was a couple hundred dollars -- the cost to fix it and get it going? $150
with labor (some kind of sensor just got old and needed replacing).

As it hit 12 years, little things kept needing attention, but nothing was
expensive. Yearly property taxes were in the dozens of dollars and the
mechanics I took it to all kept wanting to buy the car off of me for a premium
over the Blue Book value.

I finally replaced it, not because it was becoming expensive, but because,
having 12 trouble free years with it, I found it annoying to deal with
mechanics at all.

My wife had a 2004 Accord until 2015, and had a similar reliability story,
just with a few more issues (and each issue was a little more expensive).

We replaced both cars with new Hondas.

Humans have been building cars for over 100 years, there's really not much
excuse in my thinking for them not to basically be transportation appliances.
I get people want to have different stylings and performance characteristics,
but unreliability is an absolute non-starter to us.

It's not like information on car reliability isn't available from several
sources, so I'm always mystified at my frustrated friends with the Dodge
Caravans and such who are wondering why their cars are always getting worked
on.

~~~
donatj
I've heard people complain about the Dodge Caravans before, but myself and my
family had Mopar vans, something like 7 or 8 total across everyone for the
last 20 years and have had the least issues of any vehicle I've ever owned. My
'99 plymouth has had zero major issues. Bought it new, it has ~250k miles plus
- we drive it every day. I'm genuinely curious if the people who have trouble
don't do normal maintenance or something.

I'd also like to see a breakdown by engine, because I almost feel like the 4
cyl which the majority of them have been is vastly more reliable.

------
fredophile
The maintenance numbers don't make sense to me. I'll use the numbers for Mazda
and Mini as examples.

They say that over ten years the average Mazda or Mini will cost $7500 to
maintain. Both have a model in the top 20 most expensive to maintain with a
Mazda 6 being $12 700 and a Mini Cooper being $11 200. Neither one has a model
in the 20 cheapest to maintain list so their cheapest to maintain models must
be at least as expensive to maintain as the most expensive car on this list.
This puts a lower bound of $7500 on the cheapest to maintain car for each of
them. How can the average for these manufacturers be $7500 if their cheapest
car is at least $7500 and they each have a car that costs significantly more?

------
rdtsc
> Brands most likely not to start: Hummer

There's something ironic about it. Here they got a car which "looks" like a
reliable military vehicle, that you'd think could take it to some remove off-
road location (desert, camping, etc). Yet as a brand, it is most likely to
fail to start.

~~~
SFJulie
Yes, something ironic about the fact it may have the same flaw as the military
one, and that neither administration, nor the military forces that are making
so much stats to evaluate their field incident saw it... Oh, I forgot, yes the
humvee has flawed (lack of resistance against RPG, direct hit, bombs).

Guess that could be the reason why so much humvees have been given by the army
to the police force recently thanks to the 1033 program.

------
Shivetya
Well I am going to have to say pure electrics might fare better but we will
need ten years of playing with the tech to know for sure. All the electronics
are going to be fun. Almost all the unusual entries are engine related.

Before anyone runs off in celebration of pure EVs just note the number of
vehicles being sampled. Issue arise from defects for sure, as they do for wear
and tear. However a lot of issues on older cars are because of lack of care.
One of the reasons manufactures like BMW include service for 4x50 is so that
even the leased cars would get serviced.

There are a few exaggerated entries on the list, one I know of is the Nissan
Murano. Its listed quite high but that might have been because of the CVT
issues faced in 05-07 that were remedied with Nissan extending the warranties.

~~~
cellularmitosis
I'd also be afraid of the "theoretically more reliable pure electrics"
suffering from premature failures due to poor implementation, as has happened
recently in other markets.

Compact fluorescents should last ~6x longer than incandescents, yet since the
commoditization of them, you'll find the circuits in the cheaper ones often
fail long before the fluorescent tube itself would have failed (I recently did
a teardown of about 20 of my own failed CFL's. About 2/3 had functioning tubes
with blown circuits).

I similarly lament seeing an LED traffic light or LED vehicle tail light on
the fritz, knowing that the individual LED's themselves probably had another
20 years of life left in them, yet met their fate early due to a bad solder
joint or blown mosfet, etc...

------
infecto
Typo, Lexus should be Cadillac.

"Luxury imports from Germany, such as BMW and Mercedes-Benz, along with
domestic luxury brand Lexus, are the most expensive"

~~~
ethagknight
They also show Lexus as third cheapest to maintain on the chart. Stopped
reading at this line and came to HN comments to see if I was missing
something. Very confusing.

~~~
dcacaac
I also noticed that and came to HN looking for comments. Interestingly, here
in Cambodia there are so many Lexus SUVs you wouldn't believe it. Phnom Penh
has surprisingly expensive cars all over (usually I see a few Ferraris or
Bentleys every week), but Lexus is king. I wonder if this is part of Lexus's
business strategy? Do they advertise their cheap maintenance cost, or are
Lexus drivers generally aware of it?

------
Zikes
I wish I could search their system and see where my car falls on each of those
lists, rather than just the top/bottom 25 in each category.

------
overcast
A 328i costs $15,600 to maintain over ten years? My seven year old xDrive 328i
hasn't had a single cost besides oil and tires. I don't know any friends that
have paid an additional 15k to maintain theirs either. That's just nonsense.

~~~
jonknee
Well oil/tires would be included in that $15,600.

~~~
overcast
Yeh so about $1000 of that $15,600.

------
matdrewin
Boring cars cost less to maintain.

~~~
busterarm
Zoom Zoom.

(Seriously, does anyone think Mazdas are boring? Do you drive?)

~~~
mscrivo
Even their SUVs are fun to drive. Haven't yet tired of our cx-5 after 3 years
of owning it.

~~~
busterarm
I'd avoid the CX-9s though. Nobody needs to factory-replace an automatic
transmission at $6000.

And you're gonna need it.

------
dakridge
I'm curious to see how Tesla will compare to these after they have been out
for a while. I heard they are cheap to maintain, I hope that turns out to be
true.

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
In theory, because they have less parts that need maintenance they could be.
Right now, from what I've read, the biggest problem with Tesla's vehicles is
that so few places can maintain them.

That may change when Tesla's 30K-ish vehicle launches.

~~~
outworlder
Supposedly all those places are owned by Tesla.

------
kqr2
What is the best new car for the diy mechanic in terms of ease of maintenance
and availability of parts / service manual?

~~~
Aloha
Ford Panther platform (Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, Town Car).

\- parts are cheap, cars are well documented, failures uncommon

\- easy to repair if in a crash too.

\- not unheard of to see examples in the 300,000+ mileage range.

------
usloth_wandows
I've had BMW 528i since 1997. Still going strong, but those damn window
regulators break so often. I blame it on my mechanic replacing them with cheap
Chinese parts. The car went 15 years with no window problems and all of the
sudden I've had to replace each of the windows at least twice in the past 4
years (driver side 3 times)!

------
busterarm
Mazda would be much lower on their already low spot on the list if not for the
Mazda 6.

Though my RX-7 is a beast to maintain, financially. I imagine they're only
tracking models that are still current for the past 10 years.

Also some 'common' but lower-volume brands are not on the list at all (Alfa
Romeo is a notable exception here)

~~~
jfindley
Yes I did look for Alfa in the list, I wasn't surprised it wasn't there, as in
my experience it'd be so far off the top of the chart, the others would look
tiny in comparison.

I _loved_ our Alfa, but my word was it expensive to maintain (and broke a
LOT).

~~~
busterarm
Imagine where Jaguar would have shown up in the list in the pre-Tata Motors
era.

Even though Ford made improvements, it wasn't until like '96 that Lucas went
out of business and was out of the mix...

~~~
jean_claude
Jaguar owners don't care about maintenance costs, anecdotally speaking, of
course. Executive VP at an old job had a Jaguar (XJ-12 I think) that would
occasionally catch fire and 'need some work'. I swear it spent more time in
the shop than on the road, but he loved Jags.

------
brownbat
I'd really like truecar or carmax to start using estimated maintenance (maybe
with MPG and expected resale) to provide a better sense of total cost of
ownership for new and used cars. We need some way to make maintenance costs
something producers actually transparently compete on, just like fuel
efficiency and resale value.

It's just so hard to get that data. Even here we're grouping cars by make. Not
model, not year, because there's just not enough good data on this.

It's a welcome start, but it'd be interesting to see what would happen if we
just made all repair shops report more about the prices paid for what services
at what mileages for each vehicle. We might uncover some really interesting
things, and drive useful innovations from producers.

------
gcb0
this has 300 comments so probably just pissing in the ocean here, but this
highlights nothing but confirmation bias.

title should be "how much people that uses our yuppie startup pays to maintain
their cars"

of course the bmw diy wil not show up. nor the toyota that goes to the dealer
the moment a dash light goes on.

------
johnhess
Seems relatively likely that there's some selection bias going on here.

It could stand to reason that less reliable brands get discontinued. But
there's an alternate explanation. If the only population of Saturns you're
looking at is 5-10 years old, and the selection of Hondas your're looking at
are 0-10 years old, the "average" Saturn requires more maintenance than the
average Honda because on average, it's an older car.

~~~
johnhess
Not to mention, some of the numbers just don't add up. The most expensive
brand is BMW. But their most expensive car is less than their brand
average...?

~~~
delinka
I think you're conflating maintenance costs ("most expensive") with purchase
price.

------
garyclarke27
Interesting matches my experience - I've had many BMW's over the years -
currently x5 4.8 and 535d - when they work, they are fantastic but and a big
but, they are so unreliable and so expensive to maintain in the UK, main
dealer labour rates are over £200 ($300) per hour, non dealers cheaper but
struggle with the complexity so often give up and part prices can be crazy -
eg £2k to replace a diesel particulate filter.

------
imaginenore
I've had this idea for a long time. It would be amazing to get the data on
exactly what gets fixed in each of the auto repair shops, which then would let
you figure out which cars are the most reliable, and how much owning one would
cost in the long run, and maybe leads to some preventative measures to
minimize the damage. I thought about it for years, and couldn't figure out a
way to get the data cheaply.

~~~
Jupe
There is no way to get the data cheaply. There's a sizable industry around
this - of which YourMachanic is newer part.

Repair data is used to set part prices, determine the TCO of a vehicle
(similar this report shows). It is also used by the US government to mine the
data for recalls.

The residual data from the newer breed of online repair sites (YourMechanic,
Mitchell's & Motor's offering, etc.) is hugely valuable... and in no way is
easy to get to.

The reason is that repair information (part #'s, labor costs, repair
procedures, fluid levels, etc.) is extremely hard to digitize from 25
different manufacturers. No one uses a billing / estimating system unless is
includes that data.

------
agentgt
There are probably some confounds to why some brands may not do as well
particularly brands that make mini vans and/or all wheel drive cars.

AWD is just inherently more complicated and thus requires more maintenance.
Thus Subaru probably has unfair advantage since almost all their cars are AWD.

As for Prius reliability... I have passed many stuck sliding on the road in
New England blizzards... in my "high maintenance" Subaru.

~~~
planteen
Older Subaru vehicles were notorious for blowing their head gaskets. I think
the new ones are much better.

------
S_A_P
My 2014 Audi A4 Quattro is the most reliable car I've owned. I took it in for
a replacement oil pressure sensor at 48k miles which was replaced in 60
minutes under warranty. I can't really complain about that. I am currently on
pace to put 30k miles on it this year. That said Audi has a reputation for a
reason, and previous model years were not so care free.

------
yousifa
I think what is more important than the absolute cost per manufacturer is the
cost of service as a percentage of car MSRP. Parts for higher end vehicles are
higher quality/more expensive and the systems are more complex and require
more man hours.

------
sergiotapia
There's a reason why taxis in Bolivia and Peru are 90% Toyota Corolla's. It's
because parts are dirt cheap, and labor is dirt cheap.

[https://lemkeabroad.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/p1060985.jpg](https://lemkeabroad.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/p1060985.jpg)

------
sushid
I'm confused by the author's assessment of Kia cars. It's specifically called
out as being one of the most expensive lower-end brands to maintain but two of
its most popular cars are listed under one of the cheapest cars to maintain
(with none being on the expensive list).

Seems like an unwarranted callout at best.

------
tmacro
I have to wonder if this takes into account self maintenance. It is my
experience that labor makes up a significant portion of vehicle maintenance
costs. That, coupled with the high availability of used parts for popular
domestic models, seems like it would bring down costs for those vehicles
significantly.

------
tibbon
This is really interesting. I assumed when the Prius came out that it would be
a maintenance nightmare, simply due to the fact that you've got a more complex
system (electrical AND combustion) coupled together. Yet, it seems to work
amazingly well. I'm glad I was wrong.

------
shekyboy
It's a bit early but would love to see how electric cars change the auto
maintenance space...

------
brohoolio
Model year data is important. If there was one model year, like a bad
transmission, it will mess with the data.

I drove 6 ford escorts before buying a newer car. The 93 model year was
terrible but I pushed my 1998 and 1997 to over 250,000 miles each with minimal
repair costs.

------
drumttocs8
I would have thought for sure that the model most likely to not start would be
a rotary like the RX-8. Those things are more likely to flood than start if
not properly warmed up...

------
pwthornton
One of the things I wonder, as we stare at pulling a release at my work, is
can elements of the Toyota Way be brought over to software?

We practice SCRUM, which supposedly learned from the Toyota Product System,
but our quality assurance has a long way to go.

~~~
akeck
Yes! We use Toyota/LEAN tools constantly to improve our code (and everything
else).

~~~
pwthornton
Do you recommended any resources about this? I'd like to try to bring this
over to my org.

~~~
akeck
Hmmm... There are many facets, but they roughly come down to a bottom up
organizational culture of using the scientific method for _everything_. Every
assumption in developing a process, code, or product should be rapidly
validated with quick prototypes and other experiments. When determining the
cause of issues, target process and design flaws with formal root cause
analysis tools, rather than targeting people. Everyone does this everyday with
all that they do, although large-scale improvements sometimes work better in
organized events with all the stakeholders ("Kaizen Events"). My favorite book
for getting started is "The High-Velocity Edge: How Market Leaders Leverage
Operational Excellence to Beat the Competition" by Steven Spear. Then read
skill-specific books like, "Understanding A3 Thinking: A Critical Component of
Toyota's PDCA Management System", by Sobek II and Smalley, "Root Cause
Analysis: Simplified Tools and Techniques, Second Edition" by Fagerhaug and
Anderson, and the classic, "Toyota Production System: Beyond Large-Scale
Production" by Ohno and Bodek, which goes into the particular systems Toyota
uses. Many people simply apply Toyota's car-factory-specific tools from Ohno's
book in all sorts of situations, but LEAN/TPS is about developing tools and
approaches on the fly, based on the scientific method and actual data from
rapid experiments. Maybe that rapid experimentation shows that the car factory
tools will work, maybe you end up with entirely new tools, specific to your
particular situation. The "classic" tools in Ohno's book are specific, rapid-
prototyped responses to particular issues faced by Toyota and their suppliers.
Applying the LEAN/TPS philosophy to your company's specific coding and design
practices may result in entirely new tools and techniques. The "classic" tools
have become popular for re-use because the classes problems they solve appear
in many other industries and situations. LEAN/TPS says that one would use the
classic tools, if your own rapid experimentation showed that they will address
the process and design defects you are encountering. That is, don't do kan-ban
just for the sake of doing kan-ban; base your improvement decisions only on
actual data from experiments.

------
sjclemmy
My rule of thumb for budgeting is that a car is going to cost me about £1000 a
year to keep and maintain. This includes road tax, insurance, tyres, brakes
and servicing etc.

This will average out over time.

------
infecto
Tried to load the app at
[https://www.yourmechanic.com/book/](https://www.yourmechanic.com/book/). Does
not work for me. Bummer

------
danmaz74
Would have been interesting to also have the data as percentage of model
price. For a very expensive car, it's also normal that parts will be more
expensive.

------
az123zaz
"Luxury imports from Germany, such as BMW and Mercedes-Benz, along with
domestic luxury brand Lexus, are the most expensive."

Lexus is owned by Toyota. What makes it domestic?

~~~
machrider
They should have said "Cadillac" here, based on the table. It's a mistake.

------
kin
As a MINI owner, you can bump me up a few slots thanks to BMW.

~~~
sp332
I don't know how the Mini brand is near the bottom of the list but the Mini
Cooper model is tied for 19th most expensive.

~~~
chadgeidel
Yeah, I was surprised about that as well. Minis (post BMW acquisition) are
always in the "fun to drive/expensive to maintain" as described by car mags.
It was my understanding (when I purchased my 2012) that all maintenance was
included in the purchase price (through 36k miles).

I purchased the "extended maintenance plan" (increasing all scheduled
maintenance from 36k to 60k) on my 2012 for $2500 and have only paid an
additional couple hundred in maintenance since then.

I'm not counting tires - which I have spent quite a bundle on due to having
both summer and winter tires and wheels for my vehicle.

------
known
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki)
is missing

------
gwern
Why is the Prius so reliable? I know Toyota is good but I would have expected
it to be less than the Toyota average because it's a more complex hybrid car.

~~~
CarVac
Mechanically it's far simpler than any conventional transmission.

Automatic transmissions are incredibly complex, filled with several planetary
gearsets and many clutch packs.

A Toyota hybrid has exactly one planetary gearset, and some motors. That's
all.

------
dclowd9901
Land Rover showing up surprisingly (even suspiciously) low in this list.
Almost makes me question the data entirely.

~~~
bane
It's likely that Land Rover owners are taking their vehicles to the dealers
for repair, and then running away from them as quickly as possible once they
get the chance.

I've met quite a few first time Land Rover owners, I've never met a repeat
customer.

~~~
brbsix
If you have any sense whatsoever, you go to an independent shop as soon as
you're out of warranty. Also at least in my experience, quite a few owners of
older LR's do much of the work themselves.

~~~
osullivj
In my experience the Land Rover dealer network can't actually fix them. My
local dealer was never able to fix the electric park brake on my Discovery 3.
An independent specialist fitted a whole new park brake assembly, which cost
~1100GBP. Just one of several 1000+ fixes required. I'll never buy another LR
product.

------
rdtsc
Yap, friend owns a BMW. He drives a BMW dealer loaner car quite often because
his car is in the shop.

~~~
jpitz
Yep, I've owned 2. Both used, both sold, in good running condition, when they
were ten years old. Neither required expensive maintenance. Neither was in the
shop, other than for an underbody shield which got damaged by debris.

Anecdotes.

~~~
rdtsc
But that doesn't support article's claim ;-)

------
polskibus
I wonder how this ranking corresponds to Dekra statistics that are a good
source in the EU.

------
hanniabu
I'd be curious where Tesla would fall on this list. Obviously they haven't
been around long enough to get the data though.

------
mdip
I found it interesting that the Chrysler Sebring was listed as the most
expensive car to maintain. The first car I purchased for myself was a 1995
Chrysler LeBaron Convertible. I was 17 years old and had saved up money from a
business my father had started for me when I was 13 years old and due to my
dear Dad working in the industry, I was able to buy it on the "C-Lot"[0] for
$12,000 (not bad with an all leather interior and 8,000 miles ... or so I
thought). During the 5 long years I owned it, I went through not one, but
_three_ $2,400 transmission rebuilds. I was young and wasn't smart enough to
know to ditch the car after the first. Nor did I know there was an 800 number
I could have called that would almost certainly have resulted in a
discounted/free repair for the first (which happened about 2,000 miles outside
of the warranty period) or the two others (which happened within 1.5 years of
each other).

This car soured Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth vehicles for me for life. I have
_never_ considered another car from that brand and I wasn't at all surprised
to see many Chrysler vehicles on the high-cost list.

It was also nice to see several American made cars on that list[1], including
my Ford Fusion. I own a 2012 model (last year before a substantial
redesign[also 1]) with 100,000 miles on it and it has _never_ required service
other than routine maintenance (and a few more alignments than I'm used to,
but I almost _never_ drive being a work-at-home guy so I'm not sure what might
be happening while all of those miles are put on[2]).

I would have loved to see the raw data behind the article for a few reasons.

1\. Model years are missing and more details about how many kinds of failures
would have been nice. Highlighting the most expensive is nice, but if several
less expensive parts are failing, that's also very important.

2\. The cost of routine maintenance for parts that are guaranteed to wear can
vary _dramatically_ depending on where the service is done. The dealer is the
most expensive, almost every time, but things like brakes come to mind. Where
I live, taking a car for a brake job at a brake place is highway robbery. A
friend showed me how easy it is to do brakes and I discovered I could do all 4
for the cost of one at the shop (or just replace the brakes/rotors for the
price of a pad job). I later learned that a good shop will do them for about
$40 in labor over the cost of parts at a retail auto-parts store (and I thank
God that I now have a family friend who owns said shop).

3\. It has a bad smell to it and I'd like to understand how they interpreted
the data or whether or not the data set is complete. For the American brands,
some of those cars have corresponding models from their other affiliated
brands (A Chevy X is a Oldsmobile Y or even extreme cases where Eagle [dead
now] branded vehicles used to be Mitsubishi products) with very little
differences in the vehicles. This makes sense in the case of non-luxury
brand/luxury brand because there are more expensive parts and usually major
underlying improvements in the luxury brands that affect repair
frequency/cost. But in the case of that Sebring, at one point that was pretty
much the _same car_ as a Dodge model except for the exterior and I thought I
spotted others on that list that had the same situation but with the
equivalent vehicle nowhere to be found.

If anyone has that data set and can link to it, I'd be curious.

[0] I may not have this exactly right, including the name, but my
understanding is that these cars were driven by higher level employees "lease-
style" for a year at a discount (or as a perk). Suppliers and employees can
show up on a designated day and commit to purchase the vehicle at a solid
discount - mine was $12,000 for an all leather model with about 8,000 miles on
it (that would be repaired at the dealership under warranty). The "catch", I
learned years later, is that some/many of the employees exercising this perk
don't bother doing routine maintenance on the car and generally treat it very
harshly.

[1] I live in Michigan, my dad's business is a supplier to the local autos,
and there's still a lot of us who remember the days of evil bastards keying
non UAW-made vehicles so I'm stuck with the Big Three (making that Two in my
case). The general rule has been _never buy a car the first year after a
substantial redesign_ and vehicles on the last year prior to redesign are
usually the most reliable (kinks worked out). I don't know if that's based on
real data or if that's just been good luck (and common sense), but it's been a
reliable rule for my family in all but the LeBaron case (I think 96 was the
last year). That rule, along with and "if you're buying new, do so when the
dealers are trying to get the next model year on the lot" (it was a $7,000
difference with my Fusion) are the only two I know.

[2] I suspect a defect in this case or even more likely -- road conditions. My
wife is a great driver, the car has original brakes at 100,000 miles (a feat
the mechanic who inspected them last month was impressed with) and everything
but the suspension is in amazing condition. The suspension problems and
realignment frequency have me thinking her lack of gaming skills is at fault.
In this part of Michigan, driving any freeway/major road is like playing a
game of "Dodge the Potholes" where failure to win results in blown out tires
(we've had two incidents), unusual suspension wear/problems and alignment
issues depending on the angle of impact and depth.

