
What do you prefer – the French or the Silicon Valley dinner? - jaoued
https://medium.com/@loic/what-do-you-prefer-the-french-dinner-or-the-silicon-valley-dinner-427bcfd9ba13#.3f91ljqtx
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munchbunny
There's something about this post that really bothered me. It took me a moment
to figure out what it was.

Partly it's that he picks a very specific dinner experience in Paris and
generalizes it to a French dinner. Idealizes it, even. And then on the Silicon
Valley side, he describes a lifestyle. And then he compares the event in Paris
to the lifestyle in San Francisco. Intimate hosted dinners for a small group
of acquaintances happen all the time in Silicon Valley. Business meals happen
all the time in Paris.

That alone is more of a weak comparison or flawed cultural commentary, but
then this comes out:

> Why? Silicon Valley people get bored easily.

> They look around and assess who actually came to the dinner. If they do not
> see enough friends or if they do not see enough people they can do business
> with they will leave fast. Dinner invites typically say “from 6pm to 9pm”
> and that means you can arrive anytime in that time frame and leave anytime
> no-one will be offended. You can stay for 10 minutes and no-one will pay
> attention. You can either show up at 08h50 and just say hi then leave at 9.
> Everyone knows the “rule” and no-one shows before 6 and rarely stays after
> 9.

I get the impression from this description that the actual issue is that
Parisians and San Franciscans use different language to set expectations, and
that the author is actually describing a difference in how the two cultures
express expectations around social gatherings. _But that in no way implies
that people in Silicon Valley get bored easily._ It just means the two
cultures communicate differently, which should surprise nobody in either
location. Why try to make an ambiguous cultural generalization out of it that
is neutral at best and insulting at worst?

The whole thing feels lazily written and uncharitable to the colorful variety
of both Parisian and Silicon Valley culture. It makes me specifically think
less of the author's startup that is advertised at the bottom of the post.

~~~
mirimir
It's a classic induction error. N=2 is worthless.

~~~
tomsmeding
I don't see induction here, honestly.

~~~
mirimir
Generalization is a form of induction.

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tdumitrescu
This is not the Silicon Valley my friends and I know! The differences the
author describes between SV and French dinners seem to be more reflective of
differences between business meals with acquaintances/partners vs relaxed
meals with family/friends. I feel like at the moment you're booking caterers,
making up invitations to send out, and printing a time LIMIT like 6-9PM,
you're already well into "event" territory rather than "meal" (and fwiw I went
to my share of both kinds during my years in central France as well!).

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Seconded. In New York, even dinner with friends tend to be catered. In the
Valley, however, it is common in my experience for friends to cook and for the
topic of conversation to be life, the food and the future of humanity. I
really enjoy the last topic. It's not specificallt work related, but neither
is a food magazine editor talking about food _not_ work related.

The difference between Manhattan and Paris is more interesting, to me, given
the similar population densities.

~~~
bambax
> _In New York, even dinner with friends tend to be catered_

In Paris it's kind of rude to not cook yourself. Not "very rude", not "I'll
never see this person again rude", but a little _désinvolte_.

If you can't be bothered to buy the food and cook it yourself, why invite
people to your place? We can all go to the restaurant and share the bill -- we
do that too, of course.

But if it's at your place, the expectation is you gave some thought to the
menu and the wines, etc. -- including, yes, the seating of the people, who
should seat next to whom, etc.

Or it's a cocktail and there are 30+ people, then catering is fine.

Catering for 6, I can't imagine.

~~~
munchbunny
Based on his writing, I assume by "catered" he also meant to include ordering
food to be delivered from a restaurant. In typical American usage, that's
"takeout" or "delivery" but not "catered".

That point aside, I think his representation is also very narrow to the crowd
that mostly combines business networking with socializing. That's a small
minority. In my social circles (20's, middle class, highly educated tech
workers), small dinner gatherings almost always follow one of three formats:
the host cooks, the host asks everyone to contribute a dish, or we all go to a
restaurant.

Restaurant delivery is usually reserved for large groups or when the food is a
secondary consideration, such as when it's a board game night and we order a
pizza.

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packetized
I can't speak as to others in the bay area, but I quite enjoy the traditional
Sunday dinner, wherein I cook for a number of friends in my own home, without
expectation. I live in downtown SF, so clearly not an extravagant amount of
space, but we make it work (and well). I feel this article is written by
someone who doesn't actually know anyone outside of their own echo chamber in
SF.

edit: if anyone likes meat, potatoes, and whisky, get in touch.

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lorenzfx
> We talked even more about food as we had one of the editors of a very
> popular food mag in France attending the dinner.

Sounds like they were talking about work, just not the author's work.

~~~
lucaspiller
When I was living in Rome, the main topic of discussion at dinners was always
food (with colleagues who were also software engineers). My experience has
been that the Italians, French and Spanish love talking about food - which is
probably why their cuisines are regarded so highly.

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beaner
My problem is I don't know how to talk to people for 4 hours straight. That
only happens if we have very specific interests in common. When that does
happen, it might only be with one person, then everybody else gets bored and
leaves. I actually like the idea of long, lazy meals with friends. I just
don't know how to do it.

~~~
_98fj
You just might be more on the introverted side of the personality scale.

A good way to see the difference between intro- and extraversion is as
follows.

Introverts have a lot of inner tension. That starts when they are toddlers.
They constantly have something to think about, thus they need more alone-time
than others to sort themselves out and work with their inner life. Talking to
others is fine and rewarding, but recovery time is needed afterwards, so they
choose their communication carefully.

Extroverts have way more inner peace. They don't need much time for
themselves, they often get bored being alone. So they seek out other people
for stimulation. More often than not they seek out introverts, because those
are especially interesting. Talking to others is refreshing for them, it
refills their batteries.

So if you see yourself on the introverted side, don't worry about it. Just
accept it and give yourself the peace you need. Invite more or different
guests, so they can talk to each other, while you are busy with someone.

~~~
scandinavegan
I've never seen this description before, saying that introverts are tense and
extroverts peaceful. If you put them in an empty room, you could instead
easily picture the introvert being calm and the extrovert tense due to a lack
of human interaction.

I rather think that the best description of the difference is how you charge
your batteries. An introvert prefers alone time to recharge and an extrovert
prefers the company of other people to do the same. A social gathering with
many people would drain an introvert and invigorate an extrovert. It has
nothing to do with inner tension or peace.

I have seen Susan Cain in the book Quiet talk about introverts as highly
sensitive, in the sense that they take in and process more information about
the environment. An extrovert would love talking to their friends at a noisy
bar, while the introvert would be bothered by the noise and prefer a calmer
setting. Being alone is then a way of reducing sensory input to produce a
sense of calm, it's not that an introvert would need to be alone to relieve
any inner tension.

~~~
_98fj
> _If you put them in an empty room, you could instead easily picture the
> introvert being calm and the extrovert tense due to a lack of human
> interaction._

That is what I said. I guess my usage of the word "tension" is different.

> _Being alone is then a way of reducing sensory input to produce a sense of
> calm, it 's not that an introvert would need to be alone to relieve any
> inner tension._

Producing a sense of calm IS the work of relieving inner tensions. I think
here lies our misunderstanding.

When I'm talking about inner "tension", I'm not talking about any form of
visible or invisible stress. Just that there is something "going on". Thought,
ideas, inner monologue, some kind of inner activity.

There are people who regularly experience prolonged periods without thoughts,
idea, inner monologues etc. They are routinely able to access a state of mind
which could be described as happily relaxed nothingness.

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mahyarm
People have these 4 hour dinners in the bay area too, just not in the social
groups of the author. I've been to many of them of myself! Not specifically
cheese & wine themed, but the same idea.

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anothercomment
The irony is that French food is often not very good. After some stays there,
I formed the hypothesis that French like to talk about food all the time for
the same reasons that the British like to talk about the weather all the time
- because it tends to be bad...

(To be sure the "public facing" food in France is great, but the daily,
mundane stuff often disappoints).

~~~
peteretep
Arguably Brits talk about the weather because it's so changeable

~~~
tudorw
it's a fairly universal ice breaker too, if you happen upon a stranger in
close proximity whereby it would be impolite not to say something, commenting
on how it is hotter/colder/windier/calmer than
expected/yesterday/forecast/this time last year is a good start, their
response is the key to whether they would like to exchange small talk, 'yes,
it is isn't it, well, yesterday I was in Golant and ....' vs 'Yes.'

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paganel
Truth be told, talking about cheese for 40 long minutes seems kind of boring.
What's there to talk about? You just eat it. My East-European grandma has been
making her own cheese using milk taken from her own cows for all of her life,
and I've never heard her talking about cheese. Must be a bobo thing.

~~~
hultner
If you enjoy cheese as much of everything you'll know that there's a seemingly
endless stream of varieties even within a single defined kind of cheese.

I would say that having 40 minute discussion about cheese is no more obscure
than having one about programming languages, of course context and setting
plays a big role in suitability of both discussions.

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gambiting
"Very few people cook for each other. If it’s at home it’s often food
delivered from a startup like caviar or for the wealthier hosts a private
chef."

Really? I'm in the UK and even wealthy people try to put effort into actually
cooking for their guests, even if it's something as simple as a roast thrown
in the oven for an hour. I definitely always cook for my guests, unless we're
in mood for pizza, then it's takeaway.

I've definitely noticed that about some American homes though - massive
kitchens with huge gas ranges, and they all look completely brand new, unused
- is it that people cook less in general?

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enibundo
I'm slightly disturbed by the fact that this post is on the front page of
hn...

~~~
lazugod
Why?

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jmspring
Apples and Oranges. Maybe there are intersections, but "Silicon Valley" and
tradition? Just seems a stretch. The Bay Area is mixture of traditions
depending on those you mingle with.

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JBReefer
While this is charming, this seems more like a reflection on how being from a
place is different from living in a place. I have the same long meals with
friends and family here, despite the commenters​ saying the "Silicon Valley"
style meal is also the standard in NYC.

It feels like he is really pointing out that the mechanics of interaction are
very different when no one present is rooted in the region, and you don't have
shared history.

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Animats
Silicon Valley has annoyingly few French restaurants. San Carlos has an
adequate French provincial fast food place, Cusinette.

~~~
transitorykris
(because 'Silicon Valley' can be ambiguous for non-locals) San Francisco has
an incredible number of French restaurants. A quick search on Google Maps
shows 4-5 dozen. Hayes Valley alone has 8.

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binarysolo
The dinner stereotypes are pretty baseless among my communities of friends in
SF... seems like the author has more friends at home in France and more
business acquaintances in SV.

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sluggg
"While the two cultures might seem very similar, they are actually very much
different."

In what ways are the cultures similar? The article didn't mention that at all.

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Grue3
A 4 hour dinner where you have to talk to people on non work-related topics
sounds like my personal worst nightmare.

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d--b
dont know about the valley but being a Frenchman in New York, I have plenty of
dinners that no one calls "seated". And I jave plenty of buffets in Paris as
well.

This all sounds quite cliché to me...

~~~
karrotwaltz
Talking about clichés, I can confirm that (in my circles at least) we almost
always talk about food while eating, and it's usually completely unrelated to
what's in our plates.

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flukus
How about neither? I don't enjoy group meals, I'd much rather eat quickly,
quietly and alone. For socialization I'd prefer a bar or to sit around the
house chatting.

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maehwasu
Chatting for 40 minutes about cheeses sounds like a specially engineered form
of hell.

~~~
cocochanel
Chatting for 40 minutes about programming languages isn't any different. Also,
there's no expectation to do so.

~~~
jhbadger
Well, typically people chatting about programming languages are programmers. I
can see cheesemakers chatting about cheese for similar reasons, but mere
mortal eaters of cheese?

