
Are master’s degrees on their way out? Alternatives grow as enrollment fades - petethomas
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/04/13/are-masters-degrees-on-their-way-out-alternatives-grow-as-enrollment-fades/
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bane
I have an M.S. and work with a group of colleagues who mostly have M.S.s or
PhDs.

I'd say in general, the value of an M.S./M.A. is far below that of a B.S./B.A.
It's more valuable than had I gone and gotten an A.S./A.A. even though the
A.S./A.A. would have been more work.

I can't say I regret getting it, because it checked some boxes for me that let
me move up the corporate ladder without as much fuss. It's kind of like
getting a "free" extra 2-3 years of work experience and tends to move you up a
hair in seniority, but that's about it. I seem to get management tasks a
little bit faster than my non-M.S./M.A. peers.

It seems to be that the next most valuable degree is a PhD, but with few
exceptions, it's not nearly as valuable in industry as one might think. I'm
not even sure if it's really worth it in terms of ROI, whereas I'm highly
confident that a B.S./B.A. will generally earn you more than without. So in
that case an M.S./M.A. is just a stepping stone towards that. And that makes
the PhD even harder to justify.

The people I know who seem to do the best have both a PhD _and_ and MBA, which
aligns them well with executive and senior executive placement in high-tech
industry. It doesn't really even seem to matter what the PhD is in. An
alternative that also seems popular among executive recruiters is J.D. &
M.B.A.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
A PhD is more of a life fulfillment thing, it's not about money. There are
some jobs you can only get with a PhD, even if those jobs don't pay more than
normal ones, the work can be more satisfying to those who aren't cut out for
dev work.

A PhD MBA sounds...very weird.

~~~
bane
You see a lot of people with PhDs and MBAs on the side outside of the typical
HN startups space. You might be surprised at how many PhDs _also_ have an MBA,
but just don't advertise it since their other credentials are more important.

For example, it's not uncommon for a researcher to come up with some great
idea at a lab somewhere, quit, form a company (with him as CEO) and license
the tech away from his former employers. In order to give the investors more
of a warm fuzzy feeling about the competency of the guy running the company,
they'll often have him do an executive MBA program while the company is still
early stages.

In megacorp-land, PhDs for senior execs are reasonably common as well, and
it's desired that they also have excellent business education -- so you'll see
lots of MBAs in executive resumes that they picked up somewhere during their
careers.

I haven't usually seen it as part of the education progression, it's treated
more like a specialized certificate or accreditation program when people are
moving out of researchy roles and into business ones.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The MBA title in tech already receive some scorn (deserved and not); a PhD
with an MBA might be seen as overly pretentious! My guess is that many PhDs
with MBAs probably don't advertise the MBA so much.

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jackgavigan
_> ..Lynda​.com, which reaches more than 4 million people a year with its how-
to tutorials online in everything from management skills to programming._

Now we know where Dilbert's pointy-haired boss learns his new buzzwords from!

In all seriousness, I can't help feeling that someone who, for example, learns
how to program using a Lynda.com online course, is missing out on a lot of
things (e.g. the underlying principles of computer science) that are taught as
part of a full academic course of study (whether or not that course is taught
in the traditional manner in lecture theatres, or online, using video
lectures).

Given I'm not a programmer, I'm interested in hearing others' thoughts on the
matter.

~~~
LordKano
I used to work with a completely self-taught programmer.

He was very good in his area of focus but once he got outside of his narrow
area, the consequences of his lack of education became extremely clear.

He didn't have any understanding of how the stack operated or how I, a college
student at the time, could write code that executed significantly faster than
his.

~~~
andrewvc
I have worked with and interviewed a ton of CS grads who couldn't tell you how
the stack worked, what a linked list is, or compare the complexity of a hash
lookup vs a b-tree lookup. I'd say something like 80% of the ones I've met
fall in that category.

This has been pretty frustrating to me, because I am fully self taught and I
know that stuff.

Additionally, your comment overlooks the fact that much of what is taught in
college is really ancillary to what a programmer does most days. It's nice to
know, but I'd say that most CS grads learn enough to pass tests then promptly
forget it. Then, they get a job, and learn a bunch of stuff that wasn't taught
in college that actually is useful.

Seems like a waste of time to me. Why teach people stuff that 90% of them
forget? The only reason I learned this stuff is because I found it
interesting, and I learned that while making money instead of going into debt
taking on student loans.

~~~
LordKano
For financial reasons, I did two years at a community college before I went to
a University and my programming courses at the community college covered far
more of the underlying mechanisms of program execution than any of my
university courses.

Just to make sure we understood how they worked, we had to make our own linked
list objects and then write functions to traverse them.

It turns out that by saving money at a community college, I actually got a
better education than I otherwise would have.

~~~
bane
I have a similar story. I remember when my group of 7 community college grads
all transferred over to the local uni. We all signed up for the Junior-level
weed-out course (you could pivot at that point and switch majors to I.S.
without too much headache).

I think the class started with about 60 people, and ended with 11, 6 of which
were my community college peers. All of my group worked up through school and
graduated with top marks. It was funny, years after we had all met at CC to be
standing on stage during our University graduation all receiving some kind of
academic award.

In general I'd say that most of my CC professors were more dedicated and
accessible to _teaching_ than my uni professors (with a couple exceptions). I
remember several fond Saturday afternoons in the library where a couple of our
professors would hold tutoring classes for students struggling with pointers
and other hard to get concepts.

I have the sense that none of my CC classes were weed-out courses, the notion
was that all of the students in attendance had already been weeded-out by life
in some way and were being given the golden ticket of a second chance.

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erikb
I'm not sure if we have this feeling in Germany already, but I'm also sure
that this is the trend and that it is correct that way. I visited one of the
first online courses available and it was awesome. No more sitting for hours
in boring presentations when you can just skim through the video, google the
important information, do the homework and be done in half the time of a
normal class. You can grab the knowledge of a whole semester in a week, if you
work hard. And you can choose which time you do the learning. 5am, 1pm or
11pm? Sunday morning instead of Wednesday afternoon? All no problem with
online courses.

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matt_morgan
This article doesn't actually say anything convincing about master's-level
enrollment fading. It cites one university's layoffs and that university's
related press communications. Not a single number, no generalization or
overall trends ...

I don't doubt it is happening but come on. Do some reporting. Link somewhere.
Or change the title of your piece.

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HarryHirsch
In my experience, masters degrees serve as a waiting pattern to get into
medical schoool and also get around immigration restrictions, especially the
Master's cap. They serve these purposes rather well, the question whether
anyone taking these degrees actually learns anything useful is not relevant at
all.

~~~
glesica
I have two masters degrees (well, one and writing a thesis for the second one)
and I found them both enlightening, valuable experiences. It is, of course,
important to note that I didn't pay for either of them (except in the form of
opportunity costs). If I'd had to go deeply into debt I might feel
differently.

~~~
Rapzid
It's a shame you need a bachelor's degree to undertake a master's program. It
might be fun to do a comp-sci program at Georgia Tech, and I believe I would
find it enlightening and valuable. There is just no way I'd go through the
trouble of getting a bachelor's degree first.

~~~
symfoniq
This. I'm in my 30s with a wife, kids, and a successful career. The Georgia
Tech program looks great, but there's no way I'm going to go back and finish
my bachelor's degree at this point in my life. Useless general education
coursework and the absurd cost of online degree programs from reputable brick
and mortar schools makes it a nonstarter.

If there were an affordable online B.A./B.S. program from a reputable
institution, which was tailored to worldly-wise people for whom high school
was half a lifetime ago, I might reconsider. But I haven't found it yet.

~~~
lrm242
I don't know how far along you and the parent are in your bachelors, but there
are BS completion programs that you might consider. I'm now 35 and I left my
undergrad EE BS in my senior year to start a software company. Thankfully it
worked out, but I have at times wished to be able to get a masters degree and
have found the bachelors requirement troublesome.

Last year I enrolled at UT Arlington to get a BS in University Studies via the
Finish@UT program ([http://www.finishatut.org/](http://www.finishatut.org/)).
I am specifically planning on finishing a CS masters via the Georgia Tech
program. To finish my bachelors I will need to finish 4 semesters of part-time
coursework, essentially picking up where I left off in my undergrad EE at UT
Austin, but of course not getting a EE degree, but still getting a BS degree.

Anyway, as a means to an end, I can stomach 4 semesters of undergrad online
coursework to (a) finish my degree as an example for my daughters and fulfil a
promise to my father; and, (b) enable for me the option to get a masters in CS
for personal fulfilment reasons.

------
eitally
I look at master's degrees as advanced vocational skills certifications. A lot
of people go into an MS/MA/MEng/MFA program right out of undergrad, primarily
because they think they either may want a PhD or because they don't want to
leave the safety of university just yet, but many more people matriculate into
masters programs years after graduation when their work experience illustrates
clearly that they would be well served professionally to dive deeper into a
given area of study. For example, I started undergrad as a physics major but
switched to history in my second semester, while continuing personal study of
my hobby interest of computing/programming. I ended up getting a job as a
webdev when I graduated (1999), and gradually moved into management. In 2007
when my company laid off 20% of its technical workforce and the economy was
starting to tank, I made a decision to go back to school for a masters in an
area actually relevant to my desired work (manufacturing systems engineering).
I did and I learned a ton of useful stuff.

In these kinds of situations, it's hard to overestimate the value of a
master's degree, because like others have said, besides the emerging MOOC
opportunities, there aren't really any other places where someone can spend
either 1-1.5yrs full time or 2-4 years part time earning an advanced
credential that's globally recognized, in nearly any field.

------
tluyben2
For practical work the online platforms are good, but for hard theoretical
work like a master's at least _should_ be, they are not. At least not in my
experience. I have one and I would get another one and even a phd if I could
now, but at the time I thought all that theoretical bullshit wouldn't do me
much good in real life. It did not directly but of course it did form my brain
to actually being able to solve problems and learn things I never saw before
while a lot of people who 'studied online' find have problems getting into
things they never saw before.

I would not mind master's and phd's going back to the academic realm though;
for people who _want_ to do research and not 'get a high paying job' as it
once was.

------
ben010783
You don't get the same bang for buck out of a master's degree, but it's not
clear that enrollment won't rise again when the economy slumps again. Getting
a Master's Degree gets you classes, experience, connections, and it also gives
you access to a lot of services, like Lynda.com. When you look at how many
colleges offer free access to Lynda.com or how many colleges supply courses
for Coursera, you realize that many of these services are trying to supplement
college, rather than replace it entirely.

Continuing education has been necessary long before the rise of online video.
I think these services will have a bigger effect on the publishing industry
than the Master's Degree programs.

------
stuff4ben
As I ponder going into management, I tend to wonder if I should get an MBA or
even a masters in CS. There are numerous leadership style classes at the major
universities around here that I was thinking about taking as well in lieu of a
full masters degree.

------
zedpm
I was the last student at my college to receive a master's degree in Computer
Science; the program was eliminated. At the time, the movement was towards
cross-discipline graduate programs, e.g. a Robotics and Intelligent Autonomous
Systems degree that combined studies in AI, ML, Electrical Engineering,
Mechanical Engineering, etc. At the time this seemed like a smart way to get a
more practical focus while herding more students into fewer graduate programs.

I wonder today if even that approach is viable, or if, as this article
suggests, the new-model education will continue to take market share from
traditional university programs.

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cabinpark
Course-work based masters perhaps, but definitely not thesis-based.

My Master's degree was entirely paid for and I actually made money. I wrote a
thesis that contained original research and published a paper with my
supervisor on the research. This is awesome. It's a 'PhD-lite'. It showed me
how to do research and whether or not I would want to continue on with a PhD.

------
shubhamjain
Are there any numbers on how many of the enrollments are from students of
foreign countries because many people see M.S, as an easier way to have "Green
Card" in US.

------
lectrick
When looked at from a pure cost/benefit standpoint (on a salary ruler), it
doesn't make much sense. But perhaps there's still an intangible benefit.

------
geebee
I still think a traditional, full time MS degree can be worth while, depending
on how you go about it. You do need to be careful, though.

An MS can be a good way to build a portfolio, gain some skills that are hard
to develop while working full time, and explore interesting ideas and options
that might turn into a startup or software application. It isn't the only way,
of course, but it can be a good way.

The ground rules:

1) don't go heavily into debt

If you are pursuing an academic MS, you can often get a TA position that will
reduce or eliminate your tuition while paying a stipend. Alternatively,
consider a highly regarded public university with relatively low tuition - for
complicated reasons I won't get into here, public graduate programs in
CS/Engineering tend to rank far more highly than the general undergraduate
programs.

I want to emphasize the debt thing again here - if you go heavily into debt,
none of this is worth it. I hear what I can only call horror stories about
people going 100k into debt for an MS in things like religious studies. I'm
not surprised some people are passionate about this field, and by all means,
they should find a way to pursue it. But I'm amazed that the federal gov't
created a special non-dischargable kind of debt that allows people to go 100K
or more into debt for masters degrees with such limit career earning
potential.

By contrast, 10-20k of debt with a MS from a reputable engineering school is
no big deal. Really, the loss of income eclipses this, since people who can
apply to MS STEM programs are usually already capable of earning a decent
salary.

2) choose a program with flexible requirements.

If you get into a reputable MS program in a STEM field, odds are good you've
already done mathematically rigorous and highly structured undergraduate
degree. Your new program should allow you to choose courses that match your
more specialized interests.

3) it's ok to take a relatively easy academic load and pursue side projects.
Maybe even better.

This is where I fell down a bit. At Berkeley, I could have taken Intellectual
Property through the SIMS/Law schools, product development through the
MBA/Engineering schools. Instead, I dropped those courses to keep up with
advanced nonlinear optimization and integer programming. Those are great
courses for people who plan to be research professors in those fields, but
they weren't good courses for me. I would have enjoyed myself more and gotten
more out of my coursework if I'd realized what I was really there to do.

On the bright side, I did pursue a lot of side projects, mainly software
applications inspired by things I was learning. If you're at a good
university, there will be a lot of interesting speakers, seminars, students,
projects, and other types of activities that are highly relevant to your
field. Of course, it all depends on what you're there for, and if you are
planning on advancing humanity's mathematical knowledge of integer
optimization, this wouldn't be the right advice for you. But keep in mind, a
university is actually fertile ground for interesting ideas that, oddly
enough, don't really fit into something that will get you credit hours. Don't
lock yourself down with coursework to the point where you can't tap into that,
especially if you aren't PhD bound anyway. Plus, you _may_ be able to convert
one of these activities into a MS project.

All in all, it's still up to you to decide whether it's worth the loss of a
year or more of income. It can be difficult to pursue ideas like this if
you're working full time, and what you do in an MS program may put you on a
much more interesting and fulfilling path long term. It's hardly the only way.
If so, it can be worth it.

Just really, don't go deeply into debt. All those wonderful, interesting paths
that opened up to you may not be possible if debt forces you a demanding, full
time job that takes up all your time and mental energy.

