

Federating Do-It-Yourself ISPs from around the world - taziden
http://www.ffdn.org/en/article/2014-01-03/federating-do-it-yourself-isps-around-world

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Udo
At first, I thought this was encouraging. But then I checked out the 3
"providers" listed for my country (Germany). One is a club maintaining
connectivity for a specific student housing project, one offers only
dialup/ISDN, and finally only one offers actual ADSL connectivity. I'm sure
it's the same in other countries.

While it's interesting as a concept, I don't really get the feeling there is
much to see here. It's also not clear to me how these very few access
providers would actually federate without real backbone connectivity.

~~~
AlterSid
In Belgium, we are in the process of setting up an associative ISP, the road
is long, but we have already started "formallly" to investigate technical
solutions for vdsl lines, radio/wifi links; procurement of server, uplink,
datacenter.. We have just passed a milestone which was to set up the legal
entity supporting our diy isp.

You are right to point out that there is still a lot of work to be done, but
this is a step in the right direction imho.

The idea behind this federation at this point is more to advertise the status
of the various projects, and connect people together to share expertise (legal
and hands-on).

~~~
Udo
_> but this is a step in the right direction imho._

It absolutely is, yes. What you're doing is admirable.

 _> The idea behind this federation at this point is more to advertise the
status of the various projects_

Ah, alright then. My first association was there'd by an effort to extricate
yourself from the all-pervading surveillance, censoring, and traffic-shaping
planned or already taking place. Of course, setting up an organization for
knowledge sharing is also a worthy cause.

~~~
AlterSid
I sure hope this happens at the federation level too and becomes intrinsically
tied to it. But what I am sure of, is that these aspects are some of the main
drivers for people I had the pleasure to meet irl, and who are behind these
initiatives.

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farinasa
Have always been curious about setting up an ISP. Especially so recently. I
have been unsuccessful finding much information, though I haven't tried as
hard as I probably could. Anyone have any good links?

~~~
mgbmtl
From what I understand so far, the model they encourage is:

\- register a legal entity (coop, non-proft, corp, whatever)

\- register with IANA to get an ipv4 and ipv6 block

\- find an ISP who can do the BGP announcements for you (DSL resellers usually
support it, even if for a residential connection)

\- use something like Quagga for routing, no need for big expensive routers

\- connect with whatever premises you want your DYI-ISP to cover: ex: specific
building, such as a student dorm, specific residential district with a mesh
wifi, cat5 flying all over the place, install your own fiber (it's not that
complicated!), etc.

Browsing the FFDN database, a lot of their members are small orgs with 50-100
users. With time, if you encourage a community legal model (coop or non-
profit), people will develop more expertise and step up to manage and expand
your network.

PS: I'm part of a Montreal mesh community called "Réseau libre"
([http://www.reseaulibre.ca](http://www.reseaulibre.ca)). We don't provide
Internet, but we build the underlying infrastructure. It's a lot of fun and a
great way to learn crazy networking stuff on a shoe-string budget.

~~~
dingaling
> register with IANA to get an ipv4 and ipv6 block

Actually one has to register as a Local Internet Registry with the local
monopoly RIR, such as ARIN or RIPE. Only they can request blocks from IANA,
which they then allocate to LIRs in exchange for non-trivial membership fees.

Fees in the order of 3,000EUR to join and not much less on a recurring annual
basis:

[http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-
mem...](http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-
member/membership-fees)

Unfortunately since the ITU proposal for a non-geographic RIR faded some years
ago there is no competition in this space, as the existing RIRs refuse to
service cross-geography requests.

~~~
xhrpost
On top of it, the last I read, getting IP blocks from a RIR (even a decently
supplied one like ARIN) is rather difficult as the IPv4 space continually
dwindles. Also read that ARIN won't give you IPv6 space unless you first have
assigned v4 space. Not sure if that's still true. I only read and research
this stuff, haven't actually dealt with these entities myself. For a just
starting out ISP, I think you'd be forced to lease IP's from your transit
provider.

~~~
nknighthb
> _Also read that ARIN won 't give you IPv6 space unless you first have
> assigned v4 space._

You misread an "or" as an "and".

For end-users:
[https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv6_initial_assign.h...](https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv6_initial_assign.html)

"Meet one of the following requirements"

 _one of_ , not all of.

For ISPs/LIRs:
[https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv6_initial_alloc.ht...](https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv6_initial_alloc.html)

Each criteria is followed by " _or_ "

~~~
xhrpost
OK, I was referencing some older info:
[http://lowendtalk.com/discussion/2339/arin-stupid-
policies](http://lowendtalk.com/discussion/2339/arin-stupid-policies)

~~~
nknighthb
If I interpret that post correctly (and I'm not sure I do, because it sure
reads like it was written by someone who doesn't really know what they're
doing and has an axe to grind), they submitted a request for both IPv4 space
and IPv6 space at the same time, and ARIN wanted to go through the approval
process for IPv4 first. This is understandable and not surprising.

At the end of the post it even says "Nothing stopping us from paying 1250 a
year for our own IPv6 space though.".

This is an angry, confused individual upset about costs who decided to go rant
semi-coherently on a forum full of people I wouldn't trust to administer a
network anyway. It is not a reliable source of information.

Any notion that you require an IPv4 allocation to get an IPv6 allocation is
wrong, was wrong in April 2012 when that post was written, and as far as I
know, has always been wrong. You have never required an IPv4 assignment to get
an IPv6 assignment, such a policy would be absurd and utterly counter-
productive.

This is the ARIN policy document in place in April 2012:
[https://www.arin.net/policy/archive/nrpm_20120210.pdf](https://www.arin.net/policy/archive/nrpm_20120210.pdf)

I can find no requirement that new IPv6 allocations require an IPv4
allocation. See sections 6.5.2.2 and 6.5.8.1, which correspond to the pages I
linked to earlier.

~~~
mgbmtl
The author probably misunderstood because having an IPv4 allocation makes the
IPv6 allocation faster, almost automatic, since you have already proven that
you need IPs and the RIR will want to encourage IPv6 adoption. (but having
ipv4 is by no means mandatory)

------
themodelplumber
It seems like the "from around the world" part isn't really up and running
yet. I expected to see some of my local SF Bay Area ISPs on the map, but it's
only showing some European ISPs right now. Further I wondered what the
qualifications for DIY might be--individual-level shared networks or the
typical small business thing? Next I wondered why it was so important to know
about FDN attending some conference, vs. spending more time explaining in
basic terms what they do and what they plan to do.

Anyway, seems like a neat idea.

~~~
_delirium
Their main page (ffdn.org) has this description:

 _Members of the FDN Federation are Non-Profit Internet Service Providers
sharing common values: volunteer-based, solidarity-driven, democratic and non-
profit working; defense and promotion of Net neutrality._

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Xdes
I've always wondered what it would take to setup an ISP. I think customers
would be the major pain point (especially in america when competing with
Comcast or AT&T).

~~~
brabram
A good part of DIY ISP don't have customers, they have users, it's a major
difference, they are made by the people for the people.

It really depends on the country where you want to do that, but, generally,
it's hard and expensive to setup a traditional (think *DSL, FTTH) ISP.

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RMacy
Can you do this sort of thing in the US? Are the legal/political barriers too
high?

~~~
taziden
Hi, there is already people doing things like that in the US, like the Free
Network Fundation : [https://www.thefnf.org/](https://www.thefnf.org/)

They're pretty awesome.

Julien

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kordless
Could Namecoin be used for the database?

~~~
taziden
We were thinking about using the spare cpu cycles of our wireless antennas to
dig dogecoins, a PoC may come soon.

