
Why the US Has No High-Speed Rail - reddotX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qaf6baEu0_w
======
clay_the_ripper
Personally, I would love to use high speed rail. Between the crappy airlines
and the TSA and horrendous traffic on the roads (I live in California) high
speed rail seems very attractive. As a taxpayer in California, I am seriously
concerned about the costs. Too bad we didn’t invest in building this network
before when things were maybe cheaper to build with less red tape. All things
considered though, high speed rail is one thing that seems like it woood be a
huge benefit to California, and I would be happy to have tax dollars go to
that rather than to some of the other nonsense we spent insane amounts of
money on. At least we get something out of this.

~~~
jghn
Of course you're assuming that TSA won't be involved with rail travel if it
became more popular.

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WorldMaker
Why should it be?

The primary impetus for modern TSA was a group that figured out modern jets
were useful weapons if diverted off course. While train diversions are still
dangerous and catastrophes, they are nowhere near the same level of useful
weapon in the hands of terrorists.

~~~
negativez
The primary impetus for the TSA was that people were afraid and it made them
feel safer. The TSA actually accomplishes virtually nothing to prevent
hijacking compared with the addition of armored cockpit doors and cockpit
approach monitoring procedures.

The TSA does _theoretically_ screen for bad actors and explosives, both of
which are still relevant to rail travel, even if they're potentially less
threatening there.

~~~
stevenicr
I thought the purpose of the tsa was to make people feel less safe / have more
reminders to fear - thus making people less likely to demand we slash the
military / police / other security budgets. I suppose they do add to the
expense of moving drugs, and make it harder to move large sums of money - so
people who control other routes are able to extract higher prices for them,
but I don't think that in of itself actually makes people feel safer.

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davidfischer
It's a little surprising that population density isn't mentioned as a major
factor in this video. While it doesn't explain the overall cost or cost
overruns, it is a major factor in whether rail makes economic sense.

Here's some key statistics:

* US lower 48 states: 40 people per square km (km2)

* California: 92 people/km2

* DC-Boston (this is hand-wavey a bit): 200+ people/km2

* France: 270 people/km2

* Japan: 330 people/km2

* China: 130 people/km2

* Eastern China: 250++ people/km2

Most of the Chinese high speed rail is in the Eastern part of the country
where roughly 400M people live. That's more people than the entire US in a
space about double the size of California. Likewise Japan's high-speed rail
links Osaka and Tokyo which are among the most densely populated areas in the
world. A high speed rail trip between SF and LA could be free and you still
couldn't have a remotely full train leave every 10 minutes like you do in
Japan.

The Amtrak lines that make the most sense are the shorter length ones that
connect cities. The video sort of mentions this and that is in line with the
Brookings Institution[1] findings. There's no coincidence that most of these
lines operate in some of the most densely populated areas in the US[2] (So.
California, Northeast). The goal of transit isn't strictly to turn a profit
and highways don't turn a profit either. It has other goals like replacing car
trips and alleviating congestion but all of these require people to actually
ride. To get riders, trains need to operate where people are.

Long story short, there are some areas where high speed rail makes sense in
the US but the US simply doesn't need as much high speed rail as China does.

[1] [https://www.brookings.edu/wp-
content/uploads/2016/06/passeng...](https://www.brookings.edu/wp-
content/uploads/2016/06/passenger-rail-puentes-tomer.pdf)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population_density)

~~~
vardump
Always the same story. When it comes to cell networks or whatever, population
density blah blah. Sure, it's a factor, but it's hardly the whole story.

If you count about 140 mph as high speed train, Finland (pop. density 17/km^2)
and Sweden (22/km^2) seem to be doing just fine. (Those countries also manage
to provide pretty comprehensive and _cheap_ 4G coverage (with unmetered data!)
and cheap gigabit class fiber internet, but that's another story.)

The reason U.S. is like it is has only to do with path dependency. How things
slowly shaped over time. Politics, generic stereotypes and opinions about
things. Culture. That's all. U.S. has more than enough population density and
wealth to support all those things.

~~~
davidfischer
> If you count about 140 mph as high speed train, Finland (pop. density
> 17/km^2) and Sweden (22/km^2) seem to be doing just fine.

Citing the population density of Finland and Sweden as a whole is pretty
disingenuous. Those two countries have densely populated urban centers in the
south with high speed rail yet vast sparsely populated areas in the north with
nothing. High speed rail gets built where it makes sense and no amount of hand
waving is going to make building a high speed rail line from LA to Chicago or
New York viable. With that said, I will agree that politics and culture are
certainly factors.

~~~
vardump
> Citing the population density of Finland and Sweden as a whole is pretty
> disingenuous.

Yet it's perfectly fine when it comes to US? US has densely populated coasts
with some smaller density concentrations on the eastern half. So why the
coasts don't sport high-speed rail?

~~~
davidfischer
I wrote that "there are some areas where high speed rail makes sense in the
US" and I think that answers your question of "why the coasts don't sport
high-speed rail". Specifically I cited the lower 48 density, not the US as a
whole (including Alaska would be irrelevant), and I broke out California and
the Northeast to show that they are more favorable to rail. I also mentioned
that the Amtrak lines in Southern California and the Northeast make sense.
Parts of the coasts do support high speed rail and as the video mentions, the
coastal areas (California, Northeast, Florida, and even densely populated
areas of Texas if you count the Gulf Coast) are building it albeit slower than
many people would like.

