
24th Birthday: What it’s like to be 24 for a Software Engineer in India - jalan
http://techapj.com/24-birthday/
======
_random_
"IMHO work quality is severely underrated in India, everything just needs to
be done, the end quality does not matter, it should just work, that's enough"
\- this fact about Indian software development is well-known throughout the
world.

~~~
kika
Honestly I think that there's nothing national in this. It's just because the
majority of the development work in India is being done in outsourcing. When
you outsource you rarely pay for 'quality code', you pay for the code that
works, delivered on time and preferably below the budget. Okay, you get what
you're paying for.

Having said that I realize that this is a vicious cycle - young developers can
write good code, but the market requires them to quickly crank up a lot of
code which is just good enough to satisfy customer's quality requirements. In
few years this developer is not able to write good code because he basically
forgot how to do that.

Want to improve the quality of code from India (any other country for that
matter)? Stop outsourcing there :-)

~~~
davidjgraph
This. I've outsourced to India, Uruguay, Poland and I think Ukraine. Every
single line of code from outsourcing has been thrown away. That was from
finding a dev shop and them leasing one of their "devs" for x per hour (x was
never under $20).

When I learnt my lesson, I thought about it and removed the indirection. Since
2011 I've only hired directly, but still remotely. I explain exactly what
quality level is expected and that it's not a rush to finish.

The countries I've hired from still aren't high wages countries and the
initial wages paid were the same as in my unsuccessful attempts. The quality
output is far higher, and it's been worthwhile re-writing problem code rather
than giving up and trashing it.

I don't think it's the country or the wages that are the problem, I think it's
the indirection of another manager, plus the use of another company who often
stacks (cheap) junior devs up and their only measure of success is whether
their clock hours are full at the end of the month. You just can't expect that
company's business goals to align with yours, especially when other companies
using their services are often very inconsiderate about dropping the contracts
with virtually no warning, that makes their planning really hard.

~~~
mgkimsal
I recently did a code review for some work from a team in Ukraine. I was not
expecting much - instead, I was blown away. The code was phenomenally well put
together, good tests in place, comments were clear enough - this was tens of
thousands of lines of code I'd never seen before and I was able to find my way
around - and understand it - within just a few minutes. Not once did I cringe
or find anything desperately in need of a rewrite. There were some not great
architectural decisions regarding the database which I'd have done
differently, but I understood how they got there, even if it was not a good
point to be at.

This was easily some of the best code I've seen in years, both of my own and
other colleagues. There were some key takeaways I got similar to davidjgraph's
points. The company here in the US using this team worked directly with this
team - there were not multiple agencies in the middle taking their cut.
Additionally, it was the same core team (7? 8 people?) working for more than 2
years - they had a long term sense of commitment to the problem and the
project, and it showed. Many outsourcing disasters I've seen are rush jobs by
people trying to hit billable hours and move to the next project (well, same
for onshore workers, really).

~~~
chiph
My experiences were similar - at the last job we had a team in Ukraine (they
were in Zaporizhia and Odessa). It took a long time to find them (we wanted
excellent English as well as coding skills) but once we did we signed them to
a 2 year contract. They really were an extension of our company.

------
s-topper
>>>> _98% of Indian Population have not even heard the word "Github" in their
entire life, yet everyone acts like they know this stuff_

What kind of logic is it? Are 98% of Indian population software engineers? Why
do they need to know about GitHub?

~~~
jalan
You haven't mentioned the complete sentence => "98% of Indian Population have
not even heard the word "Github" in their entire life, yet everyone acts like
they know this stuff".

The problem is "They try to act" like they know about software industry,
meanwhile when you try to explain them that you are working on some open
source project, they refuse to respect your opinion.

~~~
annasaru
But 98% of US population, or 90% maybe - have never heard of github either.

~~~
berntb
Read the previous paragraph in the article. The point was that "everyone"
assumed they understood how well he was doing, while being unable to evaluate
that. (E.g. never heard of github.)

------
zoj_bad
Wow man! I think you have a really bad attitude.

I am a programmer. I am not a software Engg. I am actually a Production Engg.
However, I am a programmer. I'm a little bit older than you....27.

Let me tell you what I spend my days doing. I sit in a CCD (Cafe Coffe Day)
with my best friend from 10:30 - 1 pm and code and work on making a beautiful
product. Our product caters to the Indian market. We make a decent amount of
money. Enough to allow me to buy my first house and go for vacations every few
months.

My problem with your post is your attitude. India is an amazing country to me
cause the market is so insanely large that if you capture a niche of a niche
of a niche.... you can live a great life. In fact, I will argue, you can have
a more beautiful life than you would in countries like the US etc. You will be
able to delegate all boring aspects of your life (to maid and cooks and
helpers and assistants who are all very cheap because labor is cheap) and just
focus on what you want to do. That is the beauty of India. I could go on and
on. But, let me assure you, that you are missing out if you think its a bad
thing to be a skilled programmer in India.

------
annasaru
I think the outsourcing industry has killed tech entrepreneurship in India. I
have checked with many 24-30 year olds, and all of them are doing the same
grind for some outsourced project.

~~~
kamaal
Outsourcing industry is the only reason, why the tech entrepreneurship even
exists in India.

Its easy to troll on these companies for not offering us the great life in a
gift box. But the fact is bulk of the infrastructure, reputation and even the
very trend to help build the entire ecosystem was done by these companies.

------
anuragramdasan
Hah! This is very interesting.

I am a programmer from India. I somehow prefer programmer over software
engineer. I turned 23 on 11th. And for me 22 was complicated enough.
Interestingly, I am not from any IIT, NIT or whatever that you mention and
neither do I have a job in the big brand firm.

But still I think the situation is somewhat better than what you have
mentioned in your post. Maybe its a difference between where we are located
but I don't get that much heat anymore as far as job and stuff are related.
Also I do not think everyone should care about your open source contributions
or code quality, unless by nobody you meant people who code next to you.

Also its great that you finally are doing what you like. It is pretty
guaranteed that there would be people out complaining about something in your
life even if you were working at some big company. It is difficult enough to
be bothered with what we are doing, that we should care about what others
thing. ;-) Oh btw, Happy Birthday!

~~~
jalan
Thanks.. :)

------
annasaru
India is an English speaking country, and made its name writing software. (in
modern times).

Yet you use the term "softwares" \- learn some grammar first - especially when
it comes to your identity as a software engineer. Or are you a 'softwares
engineer'?

If you are curious, I studied in Chattisgarh, India.

~~~
jalan
That was a mistake. Thanks for pointing out. Corrected.

~~~
annasaru
Sorry If I came across as being harsh - but you are that 0.1% minority in
India, that wants/dares to be an entrepreneur.

Your courage, and determination to _try_ to break away from the suffocating
conventions around you - I applaud you.

~~~
jalan
No worries, Thanks for the appreciation. Glad you read the post, and pointed
out the mistake. Regards.

------
rluhar
Happy Birthday!

There will always be things that you feel like you _should_ or _must_ be doing
when you are 24 or 25 or 65!

Its great that you have found something you enjoy. As you get more experience
and explore new avenues, you may find things that interest you more. Be open
to change. The peanut gallery will always be there, but the only person you
are accountable to is yourself.

The social pressures are a part of the culture, but they are background noise
as such and should be treated as much. Focus on what you want to do, and where
you are going. The other things will fall into place one way or the other.

------
chiph
So, when they ask why you aren't working for InfoSys etc., turn the question
around:

"So, where did InfoSys come from? A startup like mine, right?"

Instantly, you have _potential_

------
manish_gill
Heh. As a recently graduated 23yo, I feel you brah. Based on a few of my
friends' experiences, I'm determined to stay away from the "outsourcing
industry", where engineering quality is secondary to things like seniority,
management etc. I was lucky to get an Internship with an up and coming startup
and learned the ropes. :)

~~~
jalan
Glad you liked the post!

------
Nano2rad
You have to say software engineer, not programmer, engineer has to be
included. It is like spying. If you work in a famous company, people could
guess your salary. If you work for yourself, many things are unknown about you
which irritates people. On the other hand people do business and does not
reveal income to avoid paying taxes.

------
_justin
India is not the problem neither the people around you, its your attitude. And
its better we Indian’s stop injecting this sort of stereotypes about the
country. I will be 24, new year eve. And nobody is going to ask me to get
married, nobody is going to until I am 27 or 28, and I don't have to go for
arranged marriage. After college I threw away offers from these big companies
Infosys, Wipro, Accenture or whatever and choose to work in startups. And boy,
the job is awesome and you get paid fine, better than my friends in these so
called big companies. I didn’t study in any of those NIT’s or IIT’s and I
don’t think that really matters to you in any regard. My parent’s weren’t
supportive and I have been asked several times to quit the job in india and go
abroad and work. But I don’t think there is anything negative in it. They have
grown up in a situation where married life and job in a good
company/government service were important. Make yourself clear to them and
none is going to ask that to you again, they are educated enough to understand
that and they will be happy as long as you are (and its a good thing about
Indian parents). And why should you care about what others think or care as
long as you are living a life that satisfies you? Indian’s maybe a little nosy
about things you do. But its never going to affect you as long as you don’t
want it to.

    
    
        The term "Entrepreneur" here in India is a synonym for "Jobless”
    
    

hell no!! they are respected and appreciated. We have startup incubators in
India, the governments are supportive as well.
[http://startupvillage.in](http://startupvillage.in)

    
    
        IMHO work quality is severely underrated in India, everything just needs to be done, the end quality does not matter, it should just work, that's enough
    
    

No! there are companies that value good programming, and they are ready to
higher you at a good cost and you are appreciated for writing good code. There
are Indian’s working in Indian companies who do contribute to some major open
source projects. And I have friends in these big companies who are really good
programmers and writing good code there, neither they are under appreciated.
And in business “Everything needs to be done”, and for the end quality to
matter. Its the programmer’s discretion. Its not specific to India. And at 24,
probably your life just started and there is lot to live and achieve (it
doesn't matter you are in India or in US). And life on entrepreneurs is just
as hard as it is for the ones in other countries, its not any different.

------
basicallydan
That sounds pretty tough, Arpit. Best of luck following your intuition, and be
patient with your family. :)

------
srini156
Well, too much is being told about the Indian outsourced code quality.

I did some bit of work on VWorker (now Freelancer) based out of India and I
always got good ratings for my work, never once, I was told that the code I
delivered was a shit job.

------
askar_yu
I have to ask - what's up with the " _Steve Bhagavat Gita_ "?

~~~
jalan
To answer this question, I wrote an entire blog post, explaining how Steve
affected my life - [http://techapj.com/thank-you-
steve/](http://techapj.com/thank-you-steve/)

In short, I think of "Steve Jobs Stanford Commencement Speech" as a modern
approach to "Bhagavat Gita".

~~~
nrs26
As someone from a Hindu family - this was very interesting. Thanks for
sharing.

------
anuraj
I am from south of India - In Kerala, my state, marriage is a 30ish affair.
20s is the time to explore,experience,learn and experiment. Nobody but you can
stop yourself from achieving your dreams.

------
veganarchocap
If someone asked me what my salary was, I'd kick them in the teeth. Not sure
if that's a 'British' thing, but asking someone what their salary is, is
really rude!

~~~
ishansharma
Welcome to India. Around 22, all your relatives (especially aunts) turn into
marriage bureaus and need this information. Hell, even matrimonial ads feature
"x figure income" here!

------
Killswitch
Happy birthday, you think 24 is bad? I'm gonna be 29 in May, and I'm an
American, and I feel pressured to get married and have kids too.. Haha.

~~~
ishansharma
You and Jalan are really freaking me out. I am in early twenties and about to
finish studies. I'm more of an introvert and people asking me all those
questions is going to be, well, quite unpleasant!

~~~
Killswitch
My mom is most of it, the other bit is a good friend of mine... I was in a
relationship for 6 years, 2 of those years engaged... It didn't work out. My
shortest ever relationship was 3 months. I've dated many woman since my first
girlfriend at 15... But I decided I wanted to focus on my career over
relationships for the last 4 years, now my family and friends feel as if I am
never gonna get married or have kids... I had always set a goal of not having
kids until I'm 30.

Needless to say, I'm starting to search now... :/

------
rietta
Happy birthday, Arpit! 24 is a great year.

~~~
jalan
Thanks!

------
ing33k
so when will you get married ;)

------
nealabq
What about female software engineers in India? I know this is off topic, but I
wonder what pressures they feel at 24. What are their relatives asking them?

Back on topic, happy birthday Mr Jalan!

~~~
_justin
They certainly do feel a lot of pressure. But their opinions about their life
and career are respected, at least for my female friends.

------
kamaal
Hey, firstly Happy Birthday!

>>I mean, literally, give me some personal space. I am just (about to be) 24.
I have to achieve some things in my life first, I have set some goals.

You know what, go check what has become of people who marry late and have all
sort of financial commitments like their daughters marriage or their
retirement year or their kids educational fees coming pounding on them just 2
years from their retirement.

There is a reason why people prescribe early marriage, you can be off your
responsibilities early. And that ensures you have a peaceful time after your
50's.

>>In India, it's hard for people to believe that a person can be successful by
bootstrapping his own business.

So wrong, Stories of successful Marwari's, Gujrati's and People from Kerala
are a common place in India. Please don't generalize so much. So people know
the truth too, but its not about the truth, Its about safety and fear.

To understand why parents in India prevent their kids from starting their own
business, especially those from lower middle class and poor back grounds is
the fact that parents slog like dogs their whole life to get their kids into a
position where they can secure a decent job. Imagine giving all that
away(Decades worth hardwork) and risk it all on a venture which statistically
is almost assured to fail.

For the higher middle class and rich kids this is nothing. Because they fall
back on father's property and some thick dowry sort of gifts coming in a never
ending stream from their father in law to keep them and sustain them in the
game.

For some one poor it means game over, and they have start all over again work
a few decades and hope their kids don't make the same mistake again.

>>The term "Entrepreneur" here in India is a synonym for "Jobless".

That's because starting up petty grocery stores was the trend if you didn't
net a job else where.

>>If you are not employed, then be ready to hear some harsh comments from your
relatives

May be for a good reason. If you are 24 and still expecting your dad to
support you to buy a tooth brush in the morning. I don't think that's
acceptable.

>>98% of Indian Population have not even heard the word "Github" in their
entire life, yet everyone acts like they know this stuff

98% of the population in any country haven't heard about Github. Have you
heard of the top civil engineering related discussion site? How many times do
you visit that site per day?

>>(IMHO work quality is severely underrated in India, everything just needs to
be done, the end quality does not matter, it should just work, that's enough

Who told you that? I've worked on some top notch projects here. You get what
you want. If your aim is simply to buy a few expensive flats in Bangalore, buy
a car, watch movies in a multiplex all weekend and eat out. You might as well
play some dirty polities secure a undeserved promotion and travel abroad to
fund it.

But there are awesome projects all over the place. You will get them if you
look for them.

>>From where you have done your Engineering

Because statistically speaking, someone with an engineering degree generally
does better than the one that doesn't.

>>The brand name of the company you work for (Infosys...

I've worked in one such a company, Most of the people who worked with are all
doing well. Many have started companies, and many are working public projects
of importance.

Do you even know what kind of ecosystem, training, infrastructure and
facilities such companies offer. Its next to impossible to match that outside
such companies, I was fortunate to have benefited immensely in early parts of
my career. If you walk in a gold mine, and worry all about mud, I'm not
surprised if you don't find gold ever.

>>Luckily for me, my parents were supportive...

Finally! There are folks in this country whose parents don't have the money to
buy them even a pair of slippers throughout their entire 4 years of
engineering. I hope you understand why such people make choices they make.

