
Thaddeus Kosciusko - dangerman
https://angrystaffofficer.com/2019/07/09/thaddeus-kosciusko-the-polish-engineer-you-never-heard-of-who-saved-america/
======
chewz
Most Amercans would be suprised to hear but US presidential election system
had been influenced by Polish royal election rules.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_elections_in_Poland](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_elections_in_Poland)

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/mr-president-how-
and...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/mr-president-how-and-why-the-
founders-created-a-chief-executive-by-ray-
raphael/2012/06/23/gJQAc8DlxV_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.86bc4e76a870)

~~~
H8crilA
Polish democracy was like MySpace or Altavista, good overall direction but
then suddenly failed spectacularly, during Stanisław II Augustus times. He got
steamrolled by Catherine the Great.

The second iteration of democracy (like Facebook/Google) build on the other
side of the Atlantic aged much much better.

Also, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a multicultural place (officially
recognised languages: Polish, Latin, Ruthenian, German, Hebrew, Armenian) and
a major European player.

~~~
chewz
> Włodkowic strongly supported the idea of conciliarism and pioneered the
> notion of peaceful coexistence among nations – a forerunner of modern
> theories of human rights.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawe%C5%82_W%C5%82odkowic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawe%C5%82_W%C5%82odkowic)

~~~
chewz
In short Włodkowic argumented at 'International Tribunal' during the 1414
Concil of Constance that Teutonic Order cannot justify it's violence and
conquest of neighbours just because they are pagans. That was some years
before Columbus..

At that time it was customary for European knights to come as guest to Prussia
and take part in military expeditions against pagans as a sort of hunting
excercise (razzia).

One of the more famous guests was Henry IV Tudor.

------
privethedge
[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/07/world/europe/kosciusko-
be...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/07/world/europe/kosciusko-belarus-
memorial.html) > “Belarus did not even exist when he was born,” said Veslav
Wychodzki, a retiree from Poland who traveled to Kosava recently to pay
tribute to Kosciuszko. “This was Polish land. They only put up a statue to him
last year and never really talked about him before.”

> Mr. Nesterchuk, the Belarus historian, said: “The Poles say he belongs to
> them. The Lithuanians, the Ukrainians say the same thing. The Americans,
> too.”

> “But I always say that Kosciuszko does not belong to anyone,” Mr. Nesterchuk
> added. “He belongs to the whole world as a true democrat and a fighter for
> freedom.”

------
bouncycastle
Another similar figure was Pułaski. Came to America in similar circumstances,
achievements included the saving of George Washington's life.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_Pulaski](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_Pulaski)

~~~
chewz
Puławski była kobietą... :-)

[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/07/science/casimir-
pulaski-i...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/07/science/casimir-pulaski-
intersex.html)

~~~
bouncycastle
That's awesome! One thing I want Poland to have is to have more of these types
of heros, to challenge their views and help them to shed their stereotypes.
Poland's becoming too conservative lately. Great news for intersex people too,
they can be proud.

BTW, another interesting thing about Pułaski is the sizable inheritance he
left behind. The land that later Chicago and perhaps Philadelphia was built
on. Would be worth trillions now. Nobody claimed it.

~~~
chewz
> Poland's becoming too conservative lately.

It is more like Poland is becoming rapidly progressive and the conservatives
are making noisy last stand :-)

------
chewz
American pilot volunteers fighting along Poland during Polish-Bolschevik war
of 1920 named their squadron after Kościuszko.

Polish Squadron 303 fighting during Battle of Britain had been continuing
traditions of American Pilots.

> Perhaps the most famous successor to the original Kościuszko Squadron would
> be the World War II No. 303 "Kościuszko" Polish Fighter Squadron (Warszawski
> im. Tadeusza Kościuszki), the most successful fighter squadron in the Battle
> of Britain.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_7th_Air_Escadrille](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_7th_Air_Escadrille)

------
evanb
New York City just finished replacing the Kosciuszko Bridge, a critical
segment of the BQE (I278). Most people in New York say "the koss-key-oss-ko
bridge", though my understanding is that the pronunciation is more like "Ko-
shuz-kuh"?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosciuszko_Bridge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosciuszko_Bridge)

~~~
mlthoughts2018
New Yorkers pronounce it “kozz-e-us-ko” or “kozz-e-oos-ko” not with a hard c
towards the beginning.

~~~
bogomipz
If you listen to NYC traffic reports on AM radio(1010 WINS)where this bridge
is mentioned almost daily its pronounced "Koz Cuse Ko." I have never heard
anybody use the pronunciation you are referring to.

~~~
mlthoughts2018
Growing up near Middle Village, I only heard “koz-e-oos-ko” or “koz-e-us-ko”.
Have lived in Brooklyn & Manhattan ever since, and the same there. Definitely
don’t listen to the radio. Can you find any clips where they say it this way
on NY1... literally have never heard it that way.

------
alboy
What strikes me the most whenever I read about this period is how no-hassle
moving between countries used to be. For some reason we think of the modern
world as finally "global" and "open", but it doesn't necessarily seem as such
when you try to get a visa.

~~~
dsr_
That's an overly romanticized view. Moving long distances was slow and/or
expensive. There was little in the way of international banking, so if you
wanted to have money in your new home, you had to bring gold or silver or sell
other things. If you were robbed, you were pretty much out of luck -- insofar
as there were police forces, they weren't much concerned about foreigners.

It's true that you now have to cope with passports and visas, but for most
places you might choose to emigrate to, you can expect a more or less fair
police force, shops that will take your credit card, ATMs that will translate
your money, and Internet to talk to people back home.

~~~
alboy
Well yes, I understand that this is the price of increased convenience for an
average person. I simply feel that there's a certain sense of irony in those
new barriers been erected as the old ones fall. Now it's harder to pull a
Kosciuszko but easier to post pictures of your vacation on instagram, that's
the trade-off here.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Before if someone traveled half way around the world to enter your country you
let them in because clearly they were rich or industrious enough to get there
in the first place. The deadbeats were excluded by the difficulty of actually
traveling. Taxes were minimal and services were minimal so if you let a bunch
of poors or refugees or whatever in and half of them did nothing productive it
was no big deal either way. Now that any deadbeat can travel across the world
and literacy/information is widely available (so the poor in country A know
how good things are in country B) many nations have social safety nets
countries try to pick and choose who gets in.

Edit: And before anyone thinks they're gonna score cheap virtue points by
calling me racist/classist, I'm not using "deadbeat" as a dog whistle for any
group(s). I'm talking about people who will be a net negative (definition is
ever changing and subject to politics and whatnot) if they stay permanently.

~~~
anigbrowl
It seems like you're the one trying to score 'cheap virtue points' by
signaling your dislike of people you consider to be economic freeloaders to
people of similar temperament.

One of the weaknesses of utilitarianism is that it's predicated on an
assumption of reliable foresight that's not grounded in fact but is subject to
all sorts of selection and confirmation biases.

------
satori99
> ... you probably haven’t heard of Andrzej Tadeusz Bonawentura Kosciuszko.
> Nor can you spell it or pronounce it; join the club, but we’re working on
> it.

The largest mountain in Australia is named after him.

So most Australians know, and can pronounce, his surname at the very least.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kosciuszko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kosciuszko)

~~~
YayamiOmate
Emmm sorry to doubt Aussies, but type in Kościuszko in google translate and
hit play. Their TTS is really good at pronounciation.

It's hard to do it correctly if your native tongue is not slavic. I'd like to
be wrong though.

They should know the name, though. Yup.

If anyone's inclined towards random wiki trip I suggest reading about
Strzelecki, who named the moutain. He was an explorer.

~~~
viraptor
You're not wrong unfortunately. It hurts me on a few levels when I hear the
pronunciation butchered by pretty much all Australians. I understand why /
don't hold it against them, but it's still totally wrong pronounciation.

~~~
satori99
Australians are notorious syllable droppers in general.

Many of us don't even pronounce the name of our own country correctly in our
own language. ('Straya)

~~~
Someone
Reminds me of
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDb_WsAt_Z0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDb_WsAt_Z0),
which, to me, still feels exaggerated, but that’s probably because of the
bombardment of examples.

------
6d6b73
"The dude lived a metal life and I have no idea why there hasn’t been a movie
made about him."

There are many historical figures that should have movies made about them. i.e
Witold Pilecki who volunteered for Auschwitz \- the whole team of the guys who
decrypted Enigma (and I'm not talking about Brits.) - Rejewski, Zygalski and
Rozycki \- mathematicians of the Lwow School of Mathematics and their Scottish
Book and many more.

But in reality there are thousands of scientists, explorers, soldiers,
activits and politicians all of the planet, that deserve to be known by a
wider audience, but they are being ignored by the Anglo-Saxons and their
propaganda machine.

What are some of the people that deserve to be known by wider audience but are
only known in your countries?

~~~
chewz
> being ignored by the Anglo-Saxons and their propaganda machine.

Polish propaganda machine is largely ignori ng the king of Poland (Tsar
Alexander I), who had given to Poland the most democratic constitution of the
time in Europe.

Also role of Tsar Alexander II is largely ignored in Polish history a ruler
who succesfully abolished serfdom in Poland (a task where Kościuszko failed)
and introduced custom union between Poland and Russia starting the largest
economic boom in Polish history.

What is nation?

A group of people united in mistaken view about the past and hatred of their
neighbours.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_a_Nation%3F](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_a_Nation%3F)

~~~
6d6b73
Tsar Alexander II was the ruler of the occupying nation, so forgive us for not
considering him one of the best rulers in our history. Perhaps if Russia
didn't partition Poland, Kosciuszko would have successfully abolished serfdom
long before Russians even thought about doing it, so sorry for not being
thankful for his great contributions.

~~~
jwieczorek
Claims like this are essentially impossible to have a reasonable historical
discussion about, because they do not concern history but rather _alternative
history_ , and the two are mostly disjoint. One is concerned with facts, the
other – with fantasy. And facts are more interesting and meaningful.

When it comes to facts, it's worth understanding _why_ Russia took part in the
partitions of Poland ( _hint_ : as is well-known, Catherine the Great was the
most hesitant of all the three rulers to take such an action). To have a
better grasp of this highly propagandized (in typically Polish martyrological
shades) period of history, I recommend the book _The History of Stupidity in
Poland_ by Aleksander Bocheński.

~~~
6d6b73
Thanks for the recommendation, I will definitely add it to my list . So there
is no misunderstanding - I agree with everything you said, however, the
problem with facts when looking at history, are that we're really don't know
all of them. Just look at the situation today - every country has it's own
propaganda machine, trying to spin the truth so they can present their point
of view as THE facts. In 200 years the facts will be not what really happened,
but what we can piece from the few articles and books that will survive. And
who knows how close to the real truth they will be?

But the truth usually is somewhere in the middle.

The idea behind my original post was to get people to give me some names of
the important figures from their countries, so I can learn more about their
history, views, and heroes. I don't want not to talk about the complicated
history of one nation, but about these ignored (by the western society) heroes
of exploration, science, politics that we never talk about because - how many
people really know history of Tibet, or Uganda or.. _fill the blanks_. How
many people heard about __ who discovered ____ but lived in a _____ so only
few people heard about them? But we can't talk about that because someone has
to prove why your side is as bad, or worst as my side.. FFS

~~~
jwieczorek
> But the truth usually is somewhere in the middle.

No, it's not.

~~~
6d6b73
Yes it is.. I guess that's the end of our discussion.

~~~
jwieczorek
The truth is where the truth is, not in the middle. :)

------
eps
Possibly interesting, but the writing style makes me question if the facts
aren't over-exagerrated or twisted to fit the narration.

~~~
phillc73
I thought the article was mostly a shorter, cribbed version of his Wikipedia
entry.[1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Ko%C5%9Bciuszko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Ko%C5%9Bciuszko)

------
emmelaich
> .. Kosciuszko. Nor can you spell it or pronounce it; ...

Then the rest of the article misspells it by dropping the Z!

As mentioned, it's also the name of Australia's highest mountain[0]. Named by
the explorer Strzelecki.

0\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kosciuszko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kosciuszko)

~~~
stevoski
Mawson Peak has a claim as Australia's highest mountain.

Wikipedia claims that there are three Australian mountains higher than Mount
Kosciuszko, but two of them are on land that only a few countries recognise as
Australian.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawson_Peak](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawson_Peak)

------
cafard
Lafayette Square across from the White House has a statue of Jackson in the
middle. (A duplicate of the one in Jackson Square in New Orleans.) The corners
have statues of European-born heroes of the revolution. From SE around to NE,
they are of Lafayette, Rochambeau, Von Steuben, and Kosciusko.

There is a statue of Pulaski not far away, about Pennsylvania and 12th NW.

------
astura
There's a whole lot of stuff named after him!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commemoration_of_Tadeusz_Ko%C5...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commemoration_of_Tadeusz_Ko%C5%9Bciuszko)

------
julienfr112
Remind me of another venture policist and warrior : Giuseppe Garibaldi.

------
gcbw2
> and I have no idea why there hasn’t been a movie made about him.

because hollywood would never tell a tale that shows the founding fathers as
being pro-slavery.

Reparations is still a hot topic in the US.

~~~
badpun
> because hollywood would never tell a tale that shows the founding fathers as
> being pro-slavery.

Sounds like a good subject for Tarantino. He could probably secure funding as
well.

------
milesdyson_phd
There's a statue of him here in Detroit

~~~
myself248
Came here to say that! I looked him up one time to find out why there was a
statue of him. What a fascinating guy!

------
gambiting
I'm curious why the hell is his name anglicised. It should be Tadeusz
Kościuszko. In reverse it would be like writing Albert Einstein as Albert
Ajsztain in Polish, because that's how it's pronounced. No one ever does this.

~~~
puszczyk
It was anglicized so that most of their readers can actually pronounce it. In
the article they provide the original name. We do this all the time in Poland:
Ludwik XIV instead of Luis XIV, Jerzy Waszyngton instead of George Washington,
and gazillion other historical figures. Nowadays maybe a bit less popular but
definitely a thing. So “no one ever does this” is not really true, is it?

~~~
gambiting
You're absolutely correct, I was trying to think of some examples of this
happening in Polish before writing my comment, but I couldn't think of any,
but you're obviously correct. There's a few famous foreign characters which
are usually Polish-icized(?), Szekspir is another as someone else commented.

------
chewz
Kościuszko had been venerated as a saint during communism in Poland (first
Polish Division formed in Sovitet Union was named after him, my school was
named after him and many others). But today is omitted from history and
forgotten.

The problem with Kosciuszko (and some other Polish officers of the era like
Jakub Jasiński) is that they were deadly serious with abolishing slavery in
America and serfdom in Poland (basically the same institution), giving full
citizenship rights to all human beeings and liquidating privileged landowning
class (szlachta - nobility).

This did not sit well with people who hijacked narrative of Polish history -
descendants of landowning class bancrupted by Industrial Revolution in second
half of XIX century. They romanticesed good old days of szlachta and have
always perceived Kosciuszko as troblesome figure and rabble rouser.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakub_Jasiński](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakub_Jasiński)

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_Połaniec](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_Połaniec)

~~~
cube2222
This is absolutely false. I'm a student in Poland so I'm fresh on this and -
politics aside - he is a very big figure in Polish history books, and
everybody knows about him.

(The Kościuszko Insurrection is one of the more important dates, that each
student is supposed to remember)

So no, he's not forgotten at all nor omitted.

------
Bob995
How is this technology related?

~~~
dang
HN is for anything that gratifies intellectual curiosity, whether technology-
related or not. Historical material is particularly welcome here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

