
What We Can and Can’t Learn from Copenhagen - simonebrunozzi
https://gehlinstitute.org/dialogue/can-cant-learn-copenhagen/
======
IceDane
It's worth mentioning that most of the cities in Denmark are similar. Nearly
every town that isn't tiny has pedestrian/bike only streets, and the trend
seems to be to expand these areas rather than making them smaller.

I live in Odense which is across the other bridge (the one that doesn't go to
Sweden) and it is by far my favorite city in Denmark. Relatively recently, the
busiest street that goes through the very center of downtown was closed in
order to expand the pedestrian downtown.

Copenhagen is really charming with its canals and such, but it's incredibly
busy and noisy and trafficked in comparison. Too much for me.

If anyone should be considering moving to denmark, Copenhagen is not the only
place to be. Odense, Århus, Vejle, Ålborg and most other cities are built on
the same principles, so if work doesn't demand you live in the capitol,
expanding your search parameters is definitely worth it(and potentially very
lucrative given the price of housing in Copenhagen).

~~~
haasted
Just to add a bit of info: Aarhus has a quite happening software development
scene, while Odense is the place to be if you want to work with robotics.

~~~
ckris
Aarhus looks relatively car-centric overall on satellite images. But I guess
that is partly because it is small. It seems like you would have to live
inside the few km of the city proper though.

~~~
rustyshacleford
I've lived in Aarhus the last 10 years with just a bike. Living downtown or
near a lightrail stop outside the city, is certainly preferable though.

~~~
ckris
I'm sure it's a decent deal for anyone who has a connection to the place.
There are just a lot more competition in being able to bike into a smaller
city (which is almost any university town) compared to being able to live in a
smaller city, being able to bike into a larger city or being able to bike in a
larger city. For someone moving into the area it would then be more a matter
of cost, opportunities and other things.

------
lordnacho
From Wikipedia:

Copenhagen[a] (Danish: København [kʰøpm̩ˈhaʊ̯ˀn] (About this soundlisten)) is
the capital and most populous city of Denmark. As of July 2018, the city has a
population of 777,218 (616,098 in Copenhagen Municipality, 103,914 in
Frederiksberg Municipality, 43,005 in Tårnby Municipality, and 14,201 in
Dragør Municipality).[3][7][8] It forms the core of the wider urban area of
Copenhagen (population 1,627,705) and the Copenhagen metropolitan area
(population 2,057,737).

It's a fair bit bigger than 600k whichever way you look at it. Frederiksberg
is entirely encircled by Copenhagen municipality, there's no difference in
terms of cycling. There's easily 1M people who could cycle to work/school if
they wanted. As a kid I could cycle, maybe 85% in bike lanes, all the way to
the end of "the Copenhagen metropolitan area" from the centre.

My main gripe with the place is they seem to hate cars. I mean the trains,
underground, bus, and bike lanes work for a lot of people, but not everyone.
Say I want to bring my kids and my elderly parents somewhere. Realistically
the only way to do that is to drive, but they're squeezing parking spaces
massively.

~~~
ajmurmann
If there was much demand for parking spaces, could there be a business
opportunity to provide private parking options? I remember seeing tiny parking
lots in Japan a lot where street parking in general isn't allowed.

~~~
Mvhsz
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/realestate/parking-
spaces...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/realestate/parking-spaces-that-
could-make-you-rich.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share)

------
jopsen
> School children in Copenhagen start bike safety lessons early..

When I lived in SF a few years ago, I bought a bike and asked the fancy bike
store what hand signals to use when biking. They weren't sure...

In Denmark it's a 100 USD fine of you don't signal turns and stops on your
bike.

~~~
Vinnl
Isn't it just sticking out your hand in the direction you want to go
everywhere? I'm annoyed by people not doing that properly at home, so it'd be
ironic to now find out I've been signing incorrectly abroad.

~~~
Symbiote
Yes, but also, if you wish to stop (including stopping on the right after
crossing a junction in order to turn left), you raise a hand straight up.

------
chvid
Bicycles (and related transportation such as electric scooters) are a really
good mode of transportation between 0.5 km and 5 km; a lot of cities could
benifit being more bicycle-friendly.

Copenhagen is not car-unfriendly given its size and history. Parking in the
inner part of the city is expensive and getting around in car is slow because
the city is not built for it (circa ++100 years ago). The newer parts of
Copenhagen accommodates cars as any other modern city.

Another thing worth noting is that Copenhagen got is its metro quite recently
(some 15 years ago) and it is not fully expanded. So the public transport
alternative was busses and some trains.

~~~
ptr
Maybe the metro explains why there are so many more cyclists in Copenhagen
than Stockholm: the daily ridership of the Copenhagen metro is 200k while the
one in Stockholm has 1200k.

~~~
erk__
There is also around 350k that takes the S-train every day. I belive they
think they will more than double the amount of passengers when the new line
"city ringen" opens in the end of next month as well.

------
rsync
There are benefits and costs to diversity.

We invented jazz music and snowboarding. And the Internet.

They get social cohesion and political buy-in for (relatively) progressive
transportation and health initiatives.

I, like the author, have urban envy when I visit Copenhagen (and Zurich and
Tokyo). But if I had to choose, I'd choose inventing jazz.

~~~
goto11
Are you comparing the US to a single city? Why not compare the whole of Europe
to Minneapolis and see who made most inventions?

------
dijit
I live across the bridge in Malmö, and visit Copenhagen infrequently. It
really is quite a lovely city, and our proximity seems to create a faux
competition for Sweden. Since Malmö enjoys many of the same benefits in
transportation but without such population density.

People -love- their cars. And Denmark/Sweden try to dissuade people from
owning them with heavy taxes and expensive parking.

But I’ve noticed if you ever try to take a car from someone who has one they
with fight you until you’re burger. To many people it means freedom, and until
public transport and bikes are much stronger alternatives you’re not going to
make any friends.

Which is a catch-22. You need to limit cars because they consume a lot of
space and make a lot of noise (and can be dangerous) but few have an appetite
for limiting cars.

I think if there’s a change it needs to be very gradual, over generations.

~~~
Nullabillity
> But I’ve noticed if you ever try to take a car from someone who has one they
> with fight you until you’re burger.

I don't own a car, and never have. I live in Stockholm, a very car-hostile
city. I commute the 20km each way by bus/subway or e-bike (in the summer).

And it's absolutely miserable.

The commute that would have taken 20 minutes by car instead takes at least an
hour, if everything matches up perfectly.

Any large shopping is an exercise in misery, where you're stuck buying one
thing, taking it home, and coming back for the next thing in the shop next
door, because you have nowhere to store stuff temporarily (and your (/bike's)
carrying capacity is tiny anyway). And of course each roundtrip, again, takes
3x what it would otherwise.

Want to meet up with friends? Take the hour+ trip to downtown, then as much
again to get to their place, since the system was only designed for getting
people to work and back. Oh, and add another 50% since you're in the
weekend/evening where the traffic is reduced further.

And then you wonder why there is a loneliness epidemic, or why people get mad
when you want to take away the least depressing mode of transportation that
they have.

The same also matches my experience of Copenhagen. But of course you're not
going to see that when you live in a hotel in the middle of the city for a few
days.

~~~
ckris
I am not so sure Stockholm is that car-hostile. There is a congestion tax, but
they just spent $3 billion dollars on the Stockholm Bypass motorway. It is
just very centralized, made worse by the housing market. Rush hour traffic
gets jammed quickly in bottle necks. They also haven't built much subway in
the last few decades. There isn't for example really a ring line, which most
other systems have. So going anywhere but the city center is hard. Stockholm
also has very near suburb, there are single family homes just a few kilometers
from the city center. Built for cars no less, but quite expensive. They sort
of tried to complement that with the "job/housing/work-areas", but that idea
is mostly lost to time. I think it is more that greater Stockholm just isn't
very well planned these days. But I guess Copenhagen could be similar, because
it isn't cheap either.

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GuB-42
One thing you have to realize with Copenhagen, and Danemark in general is that
it is flat. Another bike friendly country are the Netherlands, also flat.
Bikes as an efficient transportation work better when it is flat, you can
probably feel it in your legs.

Interesting that they compared it to Park _Slope_.

Another thing about Copenhagen and Amsterdam is that they are the ideal size.
Bigger and a bicycle is not enough, smaller and you might as well be walking.

Maybe a more interesting city to study for its bike culture would be Tokyo.
Huge city, not flat, and yet very bike friendly.

~~~
tomatotomato37
I think to would be better to say Toyko is 2-wheel-vehicle friendly. Some of
those vehicles are powered by humans, some by an electric motor, and others by
a 150 cc engine.

In my opinion it's better to focus on skinny vehicle overall than just bikes;
just because the current motorcycle culture in the US is that of a mid-life
crisis on wheels doesn't mean that the motorcycle can't play a role in the
city of tommorow

------
Vinnl
This article might just as well have been about the Netherlands, so for those
interested in this, you might also like this lecture discussing the many small
measures taken in Dutch infrastructure to make cycling a safe and pleasant
experience: What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design? [1] It helped me
find out that apparently I'm a public infrastructure geek.

[1]
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l0GA901oGe4](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l0GA901oGe4)

------
reddog
I spent a week in Copenhagen a few years ago and, while it was incredibly
expensive, I was very impressed.

But on further investigation I discovered it was almost impossible to get a
long term rental there. I read that Danes would put their newborns on wait
lists in hopes that they might be eligible for an apartment when they left
home 18 years later.

Copenhagians, is that really true or just Internet Hyperbole?

~~~
ckris
I think the quality of life in the Nordic countries is somewhat overrated
these days. It was really dependent on having a low cost of living, but now
many things have been sort of left up to the market. Which means that property
is quite expensive, and so is everything else. Social systems are less
extensive. But there are high taxes, punitive taxes and somewhat low salaries
for professionals. So the culture is sort of adapted for all this, but that
only really works for those who have been grandfathered in. So regardless of
the specifics it definitely isn't something to jump into without thinking.
Unless you are aware and that is the idea.

~~~
a0-prw
If you're planning on having kids, the Nordic countries are still a good bet.
"Free" (tax financed), high quality higher education and "free", excellent
medical care mean a _lot_!

Edit: I've lived in Denmark since '91, and I _never_ thought it was low cost
of living, but definitely value for money.

------
simonebrunozzi
I live in San Francisco. It's hard to do things here, or in general in the Bay
area.

One of my dreams is to bring together dozens or hundreds of people, and
collectively buy and operate an entire block, making it using sound principles
of "garden city" urbanism - vastly applied in Copenhagen, and also promoted by
Jan Gehl himself.

------
Scoundreller
I heard Copenhagen turned all of their fire hydrants to permit car parking in
front of them.

That would never happen in USA/Canada. We must continue to waste 5%+ parking
capacity in the unlikely event that it could delay fire fighting and to
continue using parking-space wasting valve orientation.

~~~
kapnobatairza
Where did you learn this? I'm not sure how that would work given the hydrant
needs to connect to the fire pump/hose on the truck, which would be located on
the street?

~~~
Scoundreller
It was just a forum comment that couldn't seem made-up.

Search for Copenhagen here: [http://freakonomics.com/2006/07/26/parking-spots-
and-fire-hy...](http://freakonomics.com/2006/07/26/parking-spots-and-fire-
hydrants/)

I was trying to research which countries prohibit parking in-front of fire
hydrants, because many don't, and don't burn down in 6 seconds.

I think the 90 degree turns with the hose are fine and can be fit between
parked cars. It's the valve facing the street that can be a problem if it's
obstructed, possibly needing to smash windows, because there isn't enough
space to route around.

------
vondur
Well, I guess if you tax autos at 100% of their value where most people can’t
afford them, that helps.

------
frabbit
_" a larger civic purpose: creation of a shared public realm. Copenhagen
feels, in a way that no other American city does, like a group effort."_

George Monbiot emphasizes a similar idea: public luxury.
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/31/privat...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/31/private-
wealth-labour-common-space)

 _" securing private space through private spending. Attempts to do so are
highly inefficient, producing ridiculous levels of redundancy and replication.
Look at roads, in which individual people, each encased in a tonne of metal,
each taking up (at 70mph) 90 metres of lane, travel in parallel to the same
destination. The expansion of public wealth creates more space for everyone;
the expansion of private wealth reduces it, eventually damaging most people’s
quality of life."_

~~~
seibelj
When someone gets older and starts staring death in the face they start
thinking about their legacy. “What is the world going to remember me for?”

This is when the real philanthropy starts. In addition to buildings, charity,
endowed academic chairs, etc. I think buying and donating land would be a
great thing to do. If I had N millions to donate then buying a city block,
turning it into a park, and putting my name on the gate would be a pretty nice
way to be remembered.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Except it never happens at any reasonable scale. It just seems like an excuse
not to do what is needed.

~~~
bilbo0s
That's the question though right?

Is philanthropy the reason the state does not do what's needed?

Or is the state not doing what's needed the reason for philanthropy?

Or perhaps it's both?

In any case we can't really figure out how to get to a game theoretic local
optimum of maximum state participation and maximum philanthropy, until we can
dig into the real reasons a lot of these things are and are not done.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Or perhaps it’s neither?

It seems obvious the state doesn’t do enough when you have a government that
doesn’t believe in the state doing anything but the barest minimum that will
get them elected.

On the scale of government spending philanthropy barely registers, it’s only
raised as an issue in an attempt to distract from the real question.

------
theredbox
They did not build alternatives for people. They social engineered people to
do what they wanted them to do. They slapped ridiculous taxes on cars and
forced people to seek other means of transportation.

Then they made it difficult and unaffordable to park in the city and built
those extensive bike lanes.

To me as someone who grew up in a communist country reeks of communism.

Dont take me wrong I am not saying cars are necessary but having a car to me
equals having the freedom of choice.

Now I live in Seoul and I usually commute by taking the subway but If I need
to go to a district that is not in the vicinity of the extensive subway
network in Seoul I take the car. It's fast and reliable.

~~~
JohnStrangeII
It's a great city, I still miss living there. I used to use public transport
to go to work and it was awesome. Going to work by bike on large bike lanes is
even better. Not to speak of the lack of car noise, which is the most annoying
thing in cities - though you won't realise that until you experience a car-
free day or zone for the first time.

I'm currently living in Lisbon, which also has a very good living quality, but
I'd say that the living quality in Copenhagen is unparalleled. I'd move there
anytime if I had a good job opportunity there. I still work in Academia and
Copenhagen University does not have many open positions, so no chance for me.
Not that I complain about Lisbon's sunshine.

You can still have a car in Copenhagen, if you really want one, you know. It's
not a matter of choices, it's a matter of nudging people in the right
direction and tax them in a way that improves living quality and society as a
whole. However, living in a low/no-traffic area can only be appreciated
properly once you've experienced it. IMHO, it's one of those things that need
to be experienced before forming an informed opinion. That's why it can be
hard to sell politically.

~~~
frabbit
> the lack of car noise

This is one of my bugbears. Setting to one side the obvious GHG-emissions
problems with moving people by cars, the noise they make and the visual impact
they have are huge reasons why I prefer areas with as few cars as possible.

