
2013 H1B Visa Supply Nearly Exhausted - moubarak
http://it.slashdot.org/story/12/06/12/0149237/2013-h-1b-visa-supply-nearly-exhausted?utm_source=slashdot
======
rll
And another type. Canadians with TN-1 status (and Mexicans with TN-2) will
typically switch to an H-1B in order to apply for a greencard. I worked in the
US for about 8 years on TN-1 status, and then switched to an H-1B for the 6
months it took to go through the accelerated greencard process.

The xenophobia also seems a little over the top on this issue. With the rather
broken American education system, is it so unbelievable to people that there
may actually be quite a few non-Americans that are simply better qualified for
these jobs?

~~~
ubernostrum
I'm not sure that it's so much "xenophobia" as the fact that companies are
pretty well-known to be abusing the H1-B process right now to avoid hiring
qualified Americans. The advantages for employers are quite strong, not least
because H1-B holders have far less mobility and are essentially at the mercy
of the employer.

~~~
rorrr
There are not nearly enough qualified and affordable senior level programmers
in the country. We tried to hire them. Most candidates, that are senior on
paper, do suck, they can't solve even medium complexity problems.

Unless you have a crazy budget, you will spend a loooong time interviewing and
going through one shitty candidate after another. We've interviewed close to
60 people, hired 3 (NYC). One of the 3 turned out to be a rat who delegated
all the work to other developers, and had to be let go.

In cities like NYC or SF, you need a very high salary to attract true talent.

~~~
dman
Whats the going rate for a competent senior dev in NYC/SF ?

~~~
rorrr
$150-200K among my friends.

Actually, there's no upper limit. We've seen some crazy examples:

[http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/11/google-offers-staff-
enginee...](http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/11/google-offers-staff-
engineer-3-5-million-to-turn-down-facebook-offer/)

~~~
dsolomon
LOL

If companies actually paid "$150-200K" there'd be an applicant line visible
from space.

------
itcmcgrath
Don't forget H-1B isn't the only VISA you can hire people under.

If you want to hire from Australia, there is a VISA that is roughly equivalent
called the E-3. It has a cap of 10K, of which less than 3K are filled yearly.
This is the VISA I have.

Not saying you will necessarily find the people you need down under (if you
cannot find them in the US), but it is possible :)

~~~
rdl
Do you have any tips for recruiting Australians?

~~~
itcmcgrath
I was recruited from the companies own conference they held in Australia.
'Cletus' was recruited from his StackOverflow iirc.

General rules: Be friendly, polite and sell the positives of being state-side
(larger tech community, more user groups, conferences, etc)

~~~
rdl
Would Australians in general have strong preferences about parts of the US? It
would seem like the "stronger tech community" argument works IFF you're in
Silicon Valley, not so much if you're in North Dakota....

~~~
timcederman
Yes. Almost all Australians I know have ended up in New York or Silicon
Valley. Some have ended up in minor hubs, e.g. Seattle, Boston, Boulder, etc.

~~~
rdl
Which locations in Australia are the best to visit for recruiting
(specifically for network/infrastructure/security types, not so much mobile
apps/social media.)

~~~
praxxis
The big cities: Melbourne and Sydney. You might get some joy from one of the
other state capitals (Perth, Adelaide, Hobart, Darwin, Brisbane), but your
best bet would be the big two.

------
manishsharan
As a former H1B, I would like to point out that there are two types of H1B
candidates: ones who got a degree here or are switching a job from an
outsourcing company and seeking a American employer and the ones who are
placed as a part of a larger team by an outsourcing company. The former are a
part of a self-selected pool of risk takers. If you are a running a start-up,
you are better off with the them as they have the mental toughness to
withstand risk.

~~~
jrmg
Err, and then there are the people from outside the US that have applied for a
job with an American company in the usual manner, have been selected as the
best candidate for the position, then need a way to legally relocate to the
USA and do the job...

~~~
tejaswiy
That's usually not how it works. I can only tell from my experience on what
happens in Inida, but you usually apply for a "consulting" company which is
basically a front for a shop that takes 30-50% cut in the developer pay by
sponsoring them a H1 and sending them out to companies that need developers. A
part of this is faking the number of years of experience they have on their
resume, completely faking the technical expertise etc.

US govt. has kinda caught up to this and is rejecting many H1Bs that were
sponsored by consulting companies now. So make of that what you will.

~~~
jrmg
I don't have any evidence that you're not correct in general, but that's
_certainly_ not how it always works. I (British) worked for six years for
Apple under the program (2001-2007), and there H1 holders - from all over the
world - were treated (and hired) in exactly the same way as US employees. They
just want to hire the best candidate.

Go after the abuses of the program, yes, but it's not fair to many good,
valuable people in the USA on visas like this to imply (and you may not be
trying to imply this, but it's the impression many people come away with) that
it's all abuse.

~~~
geebee
I've come to the conclusion that the H1B operates in two parallel universes
that have almost nothing to do with each other. On one side, you have
companies like Apple and Google, trying to hire very talented people, often
graduates of top American universities. They see it as absurd that the US
would keep these workers out, and they have a point. I also believe that these
companies treat their H1B workers more or less the same way they treat their
US Citizen workers. There is a slight difference, of course, in that the
greater restrictions on mobility _do_ have an influence on wage negotiations
and so forth, even when both parties are acting in "good faith." But all in
all, when you look at this first universe, you wonder why people are
complaining about the visa - in fact, it's so baffling that you start to
wonder if the complainers are just "xenophobes".

On the other extreme, you have extremely abusive "body shops" where employers
think nothing of threatening to revoke a visa to manipulate a worker. I think
that many people who work for the first universe were a little shocked to
discover that the biggest recipients of the H1B visa are generally overseas
outsourcing companies.

<http://www.businessweek.com/table/08/0305_h1b.htm>

If you're interested in reading more about serious abuses of the system, I'd
recommend reading some of Ron Hira's work (a public policy professor at
Rochester) - he did an interview on NPR a while back where he discussed some
of the really outrageous cases (some H1B recipients were paid less than $9/hr
and met the "prevailing wage" requirement... how on earth can this be
happening with a visa designed to remedy shortages of "critical, highly
skilled and educated workers"? And how is it that google is running out of
visas when we're allocating them to companies paying such low wages!)

It's fubar. The US badly needs a solution, but there are so many competing
interests that it's difficult to find a common ground. There is some outright
xenophobia. There are people who don't really like immigration, and want to
limit it wherever they can. There are companies that want to lay off their
entire IT department and replace it with non-citizen workers who can't
negotiate their wages. There are engineers who feel positive about immigration
in general but resent a specific program specifically brings in more engineer,
on the grounds that there is no greater a "shortage" in engineering than any
other field, at least when you consider wage growth. There are people who
support very liberal immigration policies and figure more is better. There are
people who think it's crazy to tell graduates of top STEM programs that they
aren't allowed to stay. Some people say that we should staple a green card to
every graduate degree in a STEM field (but interesting, not to every law
degree or MBA, degrees that are more popular with Americans...)

Unfortunately, the result is stalemate and a program that nobody likes, but
everyone uses, because how else are you going to do this You work with the
system you have.

My own opinion is that we should make every effort to keep and attract top
talent to the US in all fields, but we also need to be aware that the market
distortions of visas targeting specific types of workers can, if we're not
careful, end up deterring Americans from entering specific fields (creating a
self-enforcing cycle of "shortages"). I think we can balance this with good
legislation (and the countries that "solve" it will have a big competitive
advantage over everyone else), but it's a tall order considering the many
angry and conflicting interests around this issue.

------
TheMagicHorsey
I hope Congress realizes that restricting the immigration of highly qualified
tech workers has unintended consequences.

If I can't hire good programmers in America I'll be tempted to open an office
in India. Once I open an office in India, I have even less of an incentive to
hire people in America. With less employees in America, my company is spending
less on services in America. My employees are buying less things. The people I
didn't hire in America don't need houses in America. Real estate prices
suffer.

Silicon Valley is an amazing place. Immigration restrictions are unnecessary
friction. They are protectionism for college graduates who should be able to
compete on their own (if they can't, wtf were they learning in college?). If
you gunk up Silicon Valley you are basically priming the ground for the
emergence of rivals. That seems unthinkable now, but only because we are all
sitting in Silicon Valley and we aren't watching what is happening abroad.

Programmers can grow up anywhere. They can learn anywhere and with AWS, App
Engine, etc. they can deploy their services cheaply from anywhere. Soon kids
won't need VCs to launch companies. The proximity to Silicon Valley for
funding's sake will be irrelevant. It'll be the tech community that will be
the draw. If the best people aren't in Silicon Valley because immigration
rules stopped them at the border, then there will be competing communities in
other nations. Where living costs might be cheaper. Where the weather might be
better. Where the abundance of beautiful women (and men) might be higher.

What happens to Silicon Valley real estate when tech work moves to other
locales?

------
ed209
I've been thinking of moving to the Bay area for a while from the UK. Everyone
I follow / engage with seems to be there so it seems like a good place to go.

One thing I'm hearing though is that companies are not that interested in
hiring H1B candidates (at least for design) - I'm surprised that the increase
in take-up is due to tech companies. Any Bay area companies able to comment on
this?

~~~
ropiku
I really did not feel that. I just graduated in the UK and will move to the
Bay area in fall (when H1B starts). All the companies I talked to were totally
ok with H1B.

~~~
excuse-me
Then they are either $BILLION mega corps with a big legal dept or they have no
idea about H1B.

Essentially if you aren't Intel/MSFT/IBM you don't stand a chance of getting
an H1B application through

~~~
btbuilder
This is just plain wrong in my experience. Even small companies (< 15
employees) can easily get an H1B petition approved if they apply before the
cap is filled and pay a lawyer ~$2k.

~~~
mcdowall
Does anyone have any good reference links for H1B positions or a list of
companies that are open to them.

I'd quite happily pay the immigration fees myself to get into the states
(currently in the UK also).

~~~
gsa
The monthly whoishiring thread [1] has some jobs with H1B, although I haven't
had much luck with them.

Also, employers cannot make you pay the immigration fees, it's illegal.

[1] <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4053076>

------
durandal1
As someone on H1B in Silicon Valley because of a rare, hard to find set of
skills, I find it deeply insulting that every time this discussion comes up,
it's always about money. But for people who just aren't sharp enoughs, I guess
blaming something else than themselves is a convenient exit.

Stop complaining and sharpen up your skills folks, we're living in a global
world with global competition on all levels. American companies can't afford
to hire B talent just because they're "americans" (whatever that means, many
americans I know are immigrants 1-4 generations back).

~~~
eitally
Meh. I have an H1B who makes about 25% more than the rest of his team in the
same office because the prevailing wage is higher than my company's standard
wage. It cuts both ways, depending where you are and what industry you're in.

------
rajdevar
Lots of People don't know that applying for H1B Visa is not getting the work
permit/Visa to enter the country. Tech Companies like Microsoft file the
Petitions even if they don't really utilize/invite people in the current year.
This is just to keep a pool of extra workers on stand-by. Out of the 65k ,how
many will get approved by the USCIS and how many really qualify in the Visa
interview ?. How many enter the US in the current year? Remember your visa is
valid for 6 years so they can utilize it in the future.

~~~
ark15
Slight correction - The visa is _not_ valid for 6 years. The H1B visa that is
granted to you at a US consulate abroad is usually valid for up to three
years. (sometimes two) i.e. you have till that expiry date to enter the US.

Once in the US, you can extend your H1B status for up to 6 years (and more if
you have a pending 'green card' process)

------
mycodebreaks
In my team(at a company in SF bay area), We have tried to hire an entry level
engineer and also a senior level engineer who can tackle software development.
We've not been able to fill any position with qualified candidates.

Only reason is that the supply of jobs is abundant. Though there could be a
huge number of american engineers, it simply doesn't match the demand at
present. There is nothing terribly wrong in education system in the USA. The
way you can solve this problem is by telling every freshman to major in
Computer Science (However, many tech jobs don't require CS degree), which is
not possible.

~~~
geebee
Would you be willing to post the salary you are offering, along with some
information about what you consider to be a qualified candidate? Absolutely
fine if you want to keep it general, I'm just curious about what people mean
when they say they can't find a qualified candidate.

One big problem I have with the H1B visa is that it was created in response to
an alleged "shortage". I'm very enthusiastic about creating a general skilled
immigration under a points program (like Australia or Canada), but I'm far
less enthusiastic about specific visa programs designed to remedy shortages in
a particular and narrow segment of the economy. As you can probably tell, I'm
one of those people who doesn't really believe that "shortages" of workers
exist in a properly functioning market. I wouldn't rule it out completely, as
we don't have a true free market and there are externalities to consider, but
in general, I think most companies talking about shortages are really just
having trouble hiring at the rate they want to pay.

Double or triple that salary, and you'll get your engineers. If that's too
expensive, then maybe the talent you seek has just found higher value things
to work on. One extremely regrettable aspect of the H1B is that it restricts
mobility. Yes, changing jobs in related fields is possible and common, but an
H1B holder can't stay on that visa to go to med or law school, start a new
company, or respond rationally to all kinds of market signals they way free
people in a free economy would be able to... and the ugly truth is that this
is part of the appeal of this visa to some companies - a captive engineering
workforce with all the market distortions that brings.

~~~
mycodebreaks
FYI, we could not hire anyone. Finally, we lost those open reqs because
management decided so. Most smart engineer we interviewed, ended up having
multiple offers from more cool companies.

it would have been 85k-95k for an entry level. In short, it was up to the
standards in bay area for skills and experience.

~~~
geebee
What kind of salary were you offering for the more senior position?

Do you think you would have been more successful hiring a Jr dev at a much
higher salary? Say, 120K? That would still low for a graduate of a top law
school.

I know this will cause sticker shock, but that may be what it takes.

~~~
mycodebreaks
Honestly, I do not have salary data. However, for sure, the salaries were in
average or above range. You should check some salary stats.
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3141716>

~~~
geebee
It seems to me that there is a disconnect here. You mentioned that you were
losing out on "smart engineers" with "multiple offers from cool companies".
Then you discuss how your company is offering salaries in the "average or
above range." It sounds to me like your company is experiencing exactly the
outcome you'd expect.

~~~
mycodebreaks
There is no disconnect. I am just saying that how much harder it is to hire
when your company is not Google, Facebook, Dropbox etc..

~~~
geebee
The part where I see a disconnect is when you mentioned "Though there could be
a huge number of american engineers, it simply doesn't match the demand at
present."

I see this as a function of supply and demand. I haven't studied economics
formally (beyond the examples in my math classes), but I understand that
economists talk of a demand curve and supply curve. At lower prices, consumers
tends to demand more of a product or service but producers supply less. At
higher prices, produces have an incentive to supply more but consumers tend to
demand less. The point where the supply and demand curves meet is considered
the market equilibrium.

Right now, it sounds like prices (salaries) for engineers haven't hit
equilibrium. 80-90k may sound like a lot, but clearly the economy is demanding
more engineers at this level than the market will supply. I don't know where
that equilibrium point will be, but considering the number of very lucrative
career paths smart people have available to them, I suspect it's going to be
quite a bit higher.

~~~
mycodebreaks
"but clearly the economy is demanding more engineers at this level than the
market will supply"

Exactly, that was my original point.

~~~
geebee
Well, this debate is getting a little stale over a few days. The disconnect is
in the phrase "at this level".

You can _always_ find a salary point at which any good or service will appear
to be in "shortage". And you can always find a salary at which there will
appear to be a glut. Sounds like there's a big shortage of 80k/yr engineers,
but absolutely no shortage of 160k/yr engineers.

------
cjensen
Good. H1Bs are abused by employers who refuse to pay the prevailing wage and
lie to the government that they "can't find anyone at the prevailing wage."

The IEEE had it right when H1Bs were first expanded: don't give H1Bs at all.
Instead, give greencards so that if the wages are below market the employee
can immediately jump to a company paying the actual prevailing wage.

------
optymizer
My H1B expires in 2013 (first 3 years). Does anyone know if this affects my
ability to renew my H1B for another 3 years?

~~~
refurb
As far as I know, it doesn't. Extension of an H1-B is not subject to the
annual caps.

------
dimecyborg
funny comment in page "Maybe the visa numbers are stored in an unsigned short
and can't go above 65535 anyway"

------
ylem
Anyone here working on an O-1?

~~~
ylem
I have a roommate who just missed the deadline and is trying to figure out
what her options are (background is in image processing/medical imaging)--she
had an offer, but the process is rather long going from J-1 to H1...

------
dsolomon
So what if the supply is exhausted. It's a synthetic shortfall driven by a
smoke and mirrors view presented by companies that don't want to pay decent
wages.

There's no shortage of quality tech talent, never has been. Now go show me a
quality company.

------
jellicle
Luckily there's no unemployment problem in the U.S., because if there was, the
H1B program would just be a way for companies to hire employees at well below
market wages, further depressing the U.S. economy.

[http://www.google.ca/publicdata/explore?ds=z1ebjpgk2654c1_&#...</a>

~~~
Symmetry
These aren't liberal arts majors here. The recession doubled unemployment
among programmers and electrical engineers, but that means that they're up to
2.4% and 1.6% now. The US demand for STEM majors has been growing steadily,
but the number of people graduating in STEM majors has been decreasing
steadily over the last decade.

~~~
tosseraccount
Degree is not necessary in tech business. Ellison, Gates, Jobs all dropped out
of college. The people that teach themselves and have a "go get 'em" attitude
tend to do the best. Perhaps a little on the job training is all we need to
compensate for the "steady decline".

~~~
spiralpolitik
And there lies one of the cruxes of the issue.

Companies want to recruit 'unicorns', people who are absolutely perfect for
the job. People that they don't have to train and can be parachuted into a
position and be 100% productive from day one. They want an XXX or YYY
developer, not a good general purpose software engineer who can learn new
things quickly.

Such 'unicorns' either don't exist or are rare enough that they can command a
premium in salary that most companies don't want to pay.

So instead of recruiting someone who is competent but needs some training (say
recruiting a good Java/C developer and sending them on a training course to
learn Ruby), they would rather whine that there is a shortage of software
developers and petition for more H1Bs.

