
Why do men strive for status and money? - mwidell
https://micaelwidell.com/why-do-men-strive-for-status-and-money/
======
mikebenfield
From the article:

"In earlier societies where marriage did not exist..."

I could stop reading right there. There are essentially no known human
societies, past or present, in which marriage does not exist. (Possible
exceptions for a few very small societies in highly unusual situations.)
Marriage is considered a human universal by anthropologists.

But a bit further on:

"This study looked at research being done on 33 nonindustrial populations
(nonindustrial = pre-marriage, pre-contraception)"

You're seriously equating nonindustrial with a lack of marriage? You
understand that the industrial revolution was less than 200 years ago, right?
And that people have been getting married for all of recorded history?

~~~
finid
You left out the sentence before that:

 _Marriage stops the "natural" dynamic by tying every male to a maximum of one
female_

That guy must be kidding, right? Monogamy is one thing, but what about other
forms of marriage that involves more than one man and one woman?

But the rest of the sentence that you quoted is even worse, but so that it
makes more sentence, I'll quote the entire sentence:

 _In earlier societies where marriage did not exist, the most dominant males
had children with many women, and the males at the bottom of the hierarchy did
not get to procreate at all._

But in most societies around the world, the poor tend to have more kids. Who
is the author of that article?

He's:

 _a 33 year old semi-retired entrepreneur (I co-founded the Swedish
marketplace Fyndiq where I was CTO for the first six years). Nowadays I spend
my days mostly reading, writing and photographing stuff._

And making up crazy ideas about society.

~~~
misja111
> But in most societies around the world, the poor tend to have more kids.

That might be true for women but not for men. And the author is talking about
men.

~~~
stuaxo
I very much doubt that most of the extra children these women are having are
all sired by rich fathers, as opposed to men in their own social group.

~~~
misja111
There's plenty of statistical evidence for a positive correlation between
income and offspring for men, e.g.
[http://iussp2009.princeton.edu/papers/91467](http://iussp2009.princeton.edu/papers/91467)

------
carsongross
The eminent public american philosopher Tony Montana worked on this problem
and, I feel, has the final word on the topic:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ7HZATMKBY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ7HZATMKBY)

More seriously, most male/female social differences can be explained by the
fact that women can have perhaps ten children in a lifetime, whereas men can
have ten children in a day. Therefore the base sexual strategy of males is
"many", and the base sexual strategy of women is "best". Men, therefore, must
strive very hard for "best", particularly in winner-take-all societies.
Lifelong monogamy attenuated both of these tendencies and, in my opinion, is
the bedrock of civilization.

One man and a thousand women is a potential civilization, whereas one woman
and a thousand men is a horror movie.

~~~
LizardLarry
"One man and a thousand women is a potential civilization, whereas one woman
and a thousand men is a horror movie."

Very well put.

"Men, therefore, must strive very hard for 'best'"

Aren't I getting a lesson in this. Spent most of my life in pure abjection
until a doctor, with some actual competency, prescribed me some ritalin.

You would not believe how mad I am. Now I'm trying to play catch-up to be the
best and it's absolutely infuriating to hear people tell me to "relax".

I went through unimaginable hell because the wrong men were promoted to higher
positions and nobody told them to eat shit. I can't even recourse to a notion
of ultimate karma and fairness because I've realized how ultimately such
notions are a case of the sourest grapes over losing in the competition.

There are MANY terrible and incompetent men and I want to devour them all. But
my wants are nothing compared to what I need to do (develop skills and
behaviors that are marketable and which act like positive feedback on
another). My apologies for the little detour but figured that someone here has
an inkling of what I feel and it's nice to know that one's turbulence isn't a
lone storm.

~~~
cloudjacker
And ritalin fixed this? What did I just read

~~~
LizardLarry
Imagine how maddening it is to have a million random thoughts swirling through
your brain and you can't execute on any of them unless you "feel" like it.

It's life changing to have (better) control of executive functioning. And it's
sobering if you have a lifetime of being moralized at by lesser people for
things that aren't too much under your control.

~~~
trexrun620
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/54q6ha/serious_t...](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/54q6ha/serious_therapists_of_reddit_have_you_ever_come/)

I don't mean to imply you have this disorder. However, in my limited
experience, I have found viewing anyone as inherently "lesser" has only been
destructive for everyone involved, especially oneself. People are different,
they all have their crosses to bear, just as you do.

~~~
LizardLarry
Well NPD could be a possible "problem". The problem with that though is that
when one goes through certain situations, where one is clearly the "brightest"
guy in the room while "less bright" men have the reins of power, it reinforces
that self-ranking system. If I have a complex analogous to NPD, it's because
I've been through enough shit to give me a certain level of confidence.

"People are different, they all have their crosses to bear, just as you do."

Some people just suck and should be imprisoned, killed, or disbarred from any
position of authority. A lot of sucky people somehow get into positions,
including being responsible for the care of homeless veterans.

"Lesser" people do exist. But I know precisely I'm not the shit. A major irony
is that as the capacity for directed work and improvement improves, I'm more
and more aware how "far" I am from having a certain comfortableness in my
present situation.

It's the anxiety of status, because one knows what happens to those with low
status. It's the anxiety of death and waste because one knows what happens to
bodies over time. It's the anxiety of regret because one is stuck with
memories of one chemical regime while being in a more able one. The socialite
is haunted by memories of being a dullard and .

------
smcg
To get women. I think anyone could have told you that.

~~~
Scea91
That's way too simplistic answer and not true in many cases. Does Donald Trump
strive to be a president to get more women? I don't think thats his primary
motivation.

~~~
mamon
Maybe not official, or even expressed motivation. We humans tend to think high
about ourselves (compared to animals), that's why we tend to rationalize our
basic instincts.

We channel our hunting instinct in FPS computer games, or professions such as
soldier or policeman. We are ashamed of our sexual desire so we developed
complex system of rationalizations that we call "love". And we don't want to
admit that we enjoy dominating others, so we call the jobs where we are in
charge, such as governor or mayor "public service".

~~~
finid
_We humans tend to think high about ourselves (compared to animals)_

What makes you think animals don't think high about themselves?

 _We are ashamed of our sexual desire so we developed complex system of
rationalizations that we call "love"._

Humans developed love? Seriously! Did we also develop gravity? Love is a
universal (read: not limited to or developed by humans) attribute that we
express to one extent or the other.

~~~
AstralStorm
Developed in the same sense horned animals developed horns.

Inevitable name for an ancient concept of attachment.

------
rayiner
Because stuff costs money? Financial stress is the leading cause of friction
in relationships: [http://www.cnbc.com/2015/02/04/money-is-the-leading-cause-
of...](http://www.cnbc.com/2015/02/04/money-is-the-leading-cause-of-stress-in-
relationships.html). Something as small as getting a parking ticket ($50 here
in DC) can cause a lot of stress for a family for whom that's not something
they can just wave off. Also, high status jobs are usually a lot more
interesting. A lot of people would code for free--nobody would restock shelves
for free.

And women strive for status and money too. Women outnumber men in college--and
it's not because they're trying to improve their prospects on the marriage
market.

------
dpweb
Terror Management theory (Ernest Becker's Denial of Death) would suggest that
these needs are based on the psychological desire to transcend death - making
oneself immortal - through gathering not only great wealth and status, but any
achievement that would reach past that person's lifespan.

~~~
Kadin
I find this explanation particularly compelling because it also explains a
host of behaviors that have little to do with producing children.

Khufu didn't build the Great Pyramid as a place for his kids to live in.

------
orasis
IMO reasonably high testosterone levels is one of the best feelings in the
world.

I run a startup and during the inevitable valleys where my self-perceived
status is low, my testosterone falls off a cliff.

I've suffered from low testosterone in the past and now that I understand the
importance of sleep, diet (greens!), and exercise I can mitigate the drops
quite a bit - but status is still a big ingredient.

It has become taboo to discuss the importance of status and sex for male
health, but there is an epidemic of males who aren't thriving.

~~~
teekert
How did you measure your testosterone levels? (Just curious)

~~~
orasis
I've had it tested. Now, with some experience I can self gauge by how I feel.

I do not take exogenous testosterone but will be open to it as I age if
healthy lifestyle can't keep it up.

------
kasperni
I have always found the "everything I do is to carry my genes forward view" to
simplistic

\- Why do pregnant women have sex

\- Why do women have sex after menopause

\- Why do men stay with women who are no longer fertile

\- Why do 50 % of young people identity as bisexual in some way.

\- Why do sperm banks have to advertise for doners

\- Why do people adopt kids, its not their genes

And don't get me started on monogamy...

~~~
cgriswald
Just off the cuff...

Pregnant women have sex because rewiring women to NOT want sex while pregnant
would be evolutionarily pointless, not to mention sex is used to bond male
partners.

Likewise, sex after menopause. Women still seek shelter from males post-
menopause and also want males around for their children and grandchildren's
sake.

Men's instincts do not have the abstract concept of "infertile" if a woman
appears otherwise sexually appealing.

I'm skeptical of the idea that 50% of young people identifying as bisexual,
but if there is truth to this, I imagine that it is largely females who
identify this way. And bonding between females is likely to strengthen the
'herd'.

Men's instincts do not have the abstract concept of sperm banks. Even if they
did, men are also selective in where they deposit their sperm, and in any case
are largely motivated to reproduce through sexual desire. If sperm banks were
the only way we reproduced, then we'd have evolved a desire for that.

The idea that there are any humans on Earth that aren't closely genetically
related is absurd...

As for monogamy, it's a rational response on the part of males who want to be
sure they are the father of their mate's children and who want a better mating
opportunities than they might have if it was winner-take-all.

Obviously, I'm not sure of the veracity of any of these, but I think it's
fairly simple to explain most of these from an evolutionary point of view. I
think it is a mistake to assume that because the rational part of our brain
can grasp more efficient ways to spread our genes (e.g. sperm banks), that we
must therefore do that if we are wired to spread our genes. The parts of our
brains wired that way aren't quite that literal and probably haven't had time
to catch up with those concepts.

~~~
kasperni
But then why is it that its pretty much only bonobo apes and humans where this
"rewiring" hasn't taken place?

Some apes kill other apes offspring when they take over a group. Others don't.

Some animals such as gibbons and bald eagles mate for life, but most animals
are not monogamous.

If evolution principles were so hardwired you would probably expect them to
universally

~~~
cgriswald
Your question seems along the lines of "if beaks are so successful, why don't
all species have beaks?"

All animals are the way they are because of a combination of random mutation
and environmental pressure. If a trait is successful in one species, it
doesn't mean it will occur in another species. If it does occur in another
species, it won't necessarily be reproductively beneficial depending on
environment and other factors specific to the speices, so may not ever become
a generalized part of the species.

------
SCAQTony
Ironic for circa 2016 it is the poor in the US that generally have more
children yet the goal oriented machinery within us males churns on.

[ edit: Adding a statistic to validate the above assertion:
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-
fam...](https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-
income-in-the-us/) ]

------
ravenstine
Men strive for _resources_ because women used to rely heavily on men for those
resources. It's really kind of weird how this ends up being an epiphany for
many people, though I find it painfully obvious. Men and women are not
difficult to understand if you don't look through the "blank slate" prism.

------
saiya-jin
power is a drug, it twists the mind of even the best makes them crave for
more... a perpetual lust. that's what I like about democracy on paper - nobody
has too much of it, and never for too long. clever those greeks were

------
jstelly
I found an interesting talk called "Is there anything good about Men?" that
includes potentially useful ways to frame questions about differences between
men & women:

[http://www.denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm](http://www.denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm)

"Nature rolls the dice with men more than women."

and

"Culture has plenty of tradeoffs, in which it needs people to do dangerous or
risky things, and so it offers big rewards to motivate people to take those
risks. Most cultures have tended to use men for these high-risk, high-payoff
slots much more than women."

~~~
MollyR
That was interesting. really really interesting. I feel like I understand my
male family members a little bit better after it.

------
syphilis2
Do most of us agree that people strive for excessive (excessive meaning to
their detriment) status, power, and wealth? I rarely see that behavior from my
peers. I believe most people are very content with their current status, for
example Gallup measures that 80% of Americans are satisfied with their
standard of living and 48.7% live with a lot of happiness and little stress
(compared to 10.7% with a lot of stress and without happiness). When 55% of
workers are "completely satisfied" with the recognition they receive and 41%
completely satisfied with their salary, it seems like most people are happy
and are not striving for excessive wealth and power.

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ssivark
I wonder if this operates at the mimetic level instead of the genetic level,
making this a cultural phenomenon rather than a biological one. As the article
points out, in humans this striving for status/money doesn't confer much of a
biological advantage, at least beyond a point.

Hypothesis for mimetic reproduction: People with status and money (who tend to
have desired it and worked towards it) weild more influence on a larger set of
people than otherwise, and can broadcast their approach/perspective. A large
number of people will then aspire to follow in their footsteps and similarly
seek status and money, continuing this cycle.

------
noname123
>Why do men strive for status and money?

Lovelessness; Because money and status is a proxy for love from friends and
would-be lovers that we crave:

“The predominant impulse behind our desire to rise in the social hierarchy may
be rooted not so much in the material goods we can accrue or the power we can
wield as in the amount of love we stand to receive as a consequence of high
status. Money, fame and influence may be valued more as tokens of—and means
to—love rather than ends in themselves.”

Snobbery; Because underneath small talk amongst casual social situations
underlies a constant of "sizing up" and civilized snobbery:

“The company of the snobbish has the power to enrage and unnerve because we
sense how little of who we are deep down—that is, how little of who we are
outside of our status—will be able to govern their behaviour towards us. We
may be endowed with the wisdom of Solomon and have the resourcefulness and
intelligence of Odysseus, but if we are unable to wield socially recognized
badges of our qualities, our existence will remain a matter of raw
indifference to them”

Outsized expectations; Because meritocracy, "American Dream" doesn't empower
people; rather statistically forces us to confront the mediocrity of our
ordinariness of lives, while feeling anxious about alleged "wasted potential"
:

"In aristocracies, servants often accepted their position with good grace; it
was not impossible for them to harbour, in Tocqueville’s words, 'high
thoughts, strong pride and self-respect.' In democracies, by contrast, the
propaganda of the press and public opinion relentlessly promised servants that
they, too, could reach the pinnacles of society and make their fortune as
industrialists, judges, scientists or even presidents. Although this sense of
unbounded opportunity could initially excite a surface cheerfulness in
them—particularly in the younger ones—and though it did encourage the most
talented or luckiest among them to fulfill their goals, as time passed and the
majority failed to raise themselves, Tocqueville’s noted that their mood
darkened, bitterness took hold of and choked their spirit, and their hatred of
themselves and their masters grew fierce.”

\- Alain de Botton. “Status Anxiety”

------
programminggeek
Because someone has to or civilization doesn't exist.

------
gjolund
Because women are attracted to rich and powerful men.

------
susan_hall
If the goal is to generate a lot of useless "just so" stories, then this is
good advice:

"Take any behavior seen in all humans, ie. not something that is due to local
culture, and place that behaviour in the kind of tribal group that we lived in
during most of evolution. Then ask the question 'what would be the consequence
of this behaviour?' "

But if the goal is to figure out why things actually are the way they are,
rigorous agent based modeling would be a much better way to proceed.

Also, all notions of human happiness were also shaped by human evolution, so
the whole essay is nonsense. If evolution shaped our understanding of
happiness, then evolution does not, in any simplistic way, explain why me
might do things that go against happiness.

------
sunstone
This is such a mystery. Oh and by the way, what _do_ women want? Yet another
mystery. Life can be so confusing.

