
Schools Beat Earlier Plagues With Outdoor Classes - sylvainkalache
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/17/nyregion/coronavirus-nyc-schools-reopening-outdoors.html
======
abalashov
That's a troubling thought down here in eastern Georgia, where it has been in
the high 90F (35-37C) range for the past few weeks, with heat index north of
100F (38-40C), and no shortage of humidity. And that's not even remotely as
bad as it gets closer to the Gulf coast.

And it stays pretty unbearable until late October or so.

Yes, I know the article wasn't insinuating that the entire country, regardless
of climactic region, should hold outdoor classes. But enough of the US sits
below "unbearable" latitudes enough of the year that I don't think this
suggestion has much applicability beyond what is explicitly considered "the
north". Besides, I've been to New York City in August and September before;
depending on the day, the heat, and especially the humidity, can give the
South a run for its money.

~~~
SamReidHughes
They had schools before air conditioning. All we had when I was a kid were big
oscillating fans on the wall, and that was the 1990’s. I think Georgia will
have it easy, because winter will be the real impediment.

~~~
Loughla
>They had schools before air conditioning

And they didn't have school on hot days. Source: My school had no air
conditioning outside of the nurse's office until I was in high school. If the
temperature was above 89, school was cancelled for the day.

~~~
astura
What? None of my primary or secondary schools ever had a/c and I always went
to school no matter the temperature, sometimes when it was over 90°. It was
uncomfortable but it's not like I knew any different.

~~~
Loughla
We also didn't start school until after Labor Day, instead of the middle of
August.

~~~
astura
I didn't start school until September.

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rossdavidh
Speaking as someone who: 1) lives in a Sun Belt state (Texas) 2) went to grade
school in an un-airconditioned building

Yes, it could be done, and should be considered. However, school years used to
start at Labor Day, for this reason, and there were a lot of serious metal-
bladed fans to make it bearable. Even outside, you would need shade (perhaps
canopies?) and fans.

It was also a lower population density than modern urban schools. All that
body heat makes a difference.

However, definitely worth considering, and in many non-urban areas I believe
it could work.

~~~
Frost1x
>Even outside, you would need shade (perhaps canopies?) and fans.

I imagine fans may be problematic due to the way COVID19 primarily spreads.
You might be able to design your way out of it with clever fan and student
placement but without that, you might create highways for the virus to spread
from one student to the next.

~~~
AstralStorm
Well, a ceiling fan producing laminar flow is very likely to limit the spread.
Side fans and windows, unlikely. The have been a few good studies of airflow
dynamics.

Ultimately the best cheapest defense building wise would be airflow over 12
CFM in a top to bottom way. This is essentially an air curtain strength.

That's rather expensive and takes a lot of big fans or very strong HVAC system
with many air outlets.

Being outside only works as long as you can spread people out heavily enough.
It's better than unventilated buildings, but the benefit is overshadowed by
density or distance.

(See: Florida beach policy and cases after the delay.)

~~~
rossdavidh
Having worked in semiconductor fabs with laminar flow, I can say that it dries
your eyes out if you're not wearing goggles.

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imgabe
When I was a senior in high school I made a point of asking our English
teacher every day if we could go outside. Rain, shine, snow, whatever. It
became a running joke. Finally, towards the end of the year, on a lovely
Spring day, she agreed we could go outside.

But there was a catch: we had a pop quiz. 20% of the grade was some question
about a book we read. The other 80% was to write a short essay: Explain the
educational benefits of going outside.

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simonjgreen
This is precisely what my children's school is doing right now, and
consequently they've had much greater adoption from parents of sending their
children back to school. 75% vs the county average of 33%.

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dpeck
large pavilions with picnic tables, lighting, and fans works well and we
should be building them all over our communities.

They're cheap to build, keep everyone dry, shaded, and reasonably cool. It's
obviously not as good as air conditioning, but I've worked under them when on
a camp staff in central Georgia during some extremely hot summers in the '90s
(and the 90s/100s F) and it is tolerable for most people.

Brief research tells me the construction cost is generally under $25k which is
a blip in most education budgets. As a bonus we have more outdoor community
space when we manage to get past this.

~~~
dpeck
added and out of the edit time:

Even if these were only around existing school property and different classes
used just morning or evening the kids could still get some instruction, the
parents could have a brief break, and get food (and God forbid some other help
for the kids at risk) for the children who need it. We'd be in a much better
place than we are now thinking that young elementary kids can do virtual
learning.

This would go a long way with getting us through most/all autumn in much of
the US.

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pengaru
Wouldn't earlier plagues been in times of ubiquitous stay at home mothers as
well? Surely a good chunk of kids just got home schooled.

~~~
sandworm101
>>Surely a good chunk of kids just got home schooled.

This was before widespread laundry machines and dishwashers. Those "stay at
home mothers" worked. School was, and still is, in part a babysitting service.
If the kids were to stay at home they would have been helping mom, not asking
her for reading lessons.

This was also a time of increasing literacy and education overall. Illiteracy
was not uncommon. There is a good chance that many parents were simply not as
well educated as their school-age children. Homeschooling is all well and
good, unless mom cannot read.

~~~
sukilot
Then how did moms get by when kids were in school not helping?

I'm sure some parents or school studenta were illiterate, but not the
majority.

And families were larger, so they'd have multiple children to teach each
other.

~~~
ivanbakel
>Then how did moms get by when kids were in school not helping?

They got by better _because_ children were in school. If you don't have to
keep an eye on your kids, you can commit 100% to all the housework and get it
done that much sooner.

They were productive with or without the children around. The point is that
there was no productivity to spare for mother and child to do any
teaching/learning.

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bpyne
Some good ideas exist in this article. I could see this strategy implemented
in my district as one of several starting in the Fall. But it's not going to
be easy.

I'm in New England. The sheer number of students and the percentage of them
who have inadequate Winter clothing and food would make the strategy
impossible to implement as a one size fits all approach.

A quick search shows that my school district has 10,479 students. The number
of students on free or reduced price lunch is a good indicator of access to
adequate Winter clothing as well. We have 44% of the students on free or
reduced price lunch. To implement a strategy of windows open or outdoor
classrooms, we would have to account for 4,610 students' Winter clothing needs
for temperatures ranging from 0F-55F.

Some communities have much higher percentages of students on free and reduced
price lunch. A quick look at a neighbor city 15 minutes' drive to the north
shows 95% on free or reduced price lunch.

Districts less affected by poverty could probably implement an outdoor or
windows open strategy. But a mountain of logistics exist in trying to
implement in communities like mine. Unfortunately, in our county, communities
like mine are the norm.

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bravoetch
Or online. Cheaper and less frostbite for kids in places with extreme winter
conditions.

~~~
klyrs
I have a rambunctious 4yo entering kindergarten this year. He needs direct
attention of a present human, not a screen to watch.

~~~
tomjen3
I am sure a Border Collie could deal with him no issue and I don't think dogs
can get Covid-19.

~~~
deckiedan
Many of us live in rental accomodation that have no-pets rules.

~~~
mmm_grayons
Good point, but many people are making changes due to a radically different
lifestyle. Moving to new places to find work, moving out of cities for more
space and lower rent/cheaper house. It's not reasonable to expect you get
through this without making lifestyle changes.

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getpost
Traffic noise is a problem for many schools in urban areas — another reason
you don’t want to open windows or teach outside.

Moreover, some schools have only small 100% paved outdoor areas.

Example: Ánimo Westside Charter Middle School (funded by Gates Foundation)
[https://goo.gl/maps/Wn2bu5kkh97Ygqt88](https://goo.gl/maps/Wn2bu5kkh97Ygqt88)

Nearby public elementary school adjacent to nature area, with ample unpaved
space, somewhat less noisy, bit still problematic. Playa Vista Elementary
[https://goo.gl/maps/tydUVn1X9ppB7p699](https://goo.gl/maps/tydUVn1X9ppB7p699)

(Not complaining about charter schools, but this is an interesting
juxtaposition, unrelated to the main point of this topic.)

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CivBase
Unfortunately, I doubt any schools in my neck of the woods could seriously
consider that. North-midwestern winters are very uncomfortable.

~~~
wallacoloo
In my neck of the woods, it’s not too uncommon to find year-round outdoor
seating at restaurants thanks to radiative heaters. Mind you, I’ve never tried
one of these when it’s colder than maybe 45 F. But do you think something like
that is feasible?

~~~
KMag
Having grown up in Minnesota, come late January and early February, on the
days when the high temperatures are under 0F/-18 C, putting a child out there
for 8 hours under a radiant heater, I think you might actually melt hats/coat
hoods before you fully prevent frostbitten toes. Even if you can keep the
whole kid at reasonable temperatures, I think it would just be very
distracting.

Also, for that power/propane bill, you're probably better off with either per-
desk transparent positive-pressure medical isolation tents or full-face
snorkel masks fitted with 3D printed adapters to ceramic-element anesthesia
machine air filters.

In addition, kids play. Some small percentage of those kids are going to get
burned by heaters.

------
not_a_moth
Can one seriously compare COVID-19 to a TB plague? Especially in context of
schools where mortality rate for the school aged appears to be less than any
seasonal flu on record.

~~~
jedberg
> Especially in context of schools where mortality rate for the school aged
> appears to be less than any seasonal flu on record.

There is no good data to back that up. Since we've been keep track, most kids
have been staying home, away from other kids. Schools have been closed,
playgrounds have been closed, and so on.

There is a good chance it doesn't affect them as much, but it's not entirely
clear since they haven't been socializing as much as adults.

The data we do have says that COVID-19 is 3 times deadlier than the flu for
kids 5-17, and 190 times deadlier for kids 0-4, but that's because the numbers
are small:
[https://i.insider.com/5ef234caf34d051bc821d0d8?width=700&for...](https://i.insider.com/5ef234caf34d051bc821d0d8?width=700&format=jpeg&auto=webp)

Also, lots of adults work in schools. 1/3 of teachers in the US are over 50.

~~~
topkai22
No, at this point we can be pretty certain that this disease doesn't affect
young children as badly as flu. Plenty of kids have tested positive for
COVID19, but almost none have died. This disease is so pervasive we'd see
excess showing up in that age group and we just don't. Kids just don't seem to
get as sick as adults.

What we don't know is how effective kids are as transmission vectors. If
COVID19 spreads rapidly through a school and kids can get thier caretakers
sick, thats a real problem. The limited data we have in suggests that not only
do young kids not have limited disease, they also don't spread it easily, but
all the data I've seen is almost anecdotal.

~~~
jedberg
> No, at this point we can be pretty certain that this disease doesn't affect
> young children as badly as flu

That's just straight up wrong. According to the CDC, as of June 23, COVID-19
was three times deadlier than the flu for kids 5-17, and 190 times deadlier
for kids 0-4:

[https://i.insider.com/5ef234caf34d051bc821d0d8?width=700&for...](https://i.insider.com/5ef234caf34d051bc821d0d8?width=700&format=jpeg&auto=webp)

~~~
topkai22
Mea culpa, I had the <1 numbers of flu in my head as the <10 number- I
shouldn't have said "as badly". However, those charts aren't great- as someone
else noted comparing estimated flu numbers with confirmed COVID cases is
problematic. In my local region, a randomized serology study suggested that we
have at least 3x as many infections as confirmed cases, and a raw
extrapolation of deaths to IFR rates suggests its even higher.

It's best to say "the fatality rate is near the same order as the flu for
school age children"

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sylvainkalache
Obviously, easier said than done, especially for urban communities.

But I bet students could have better learning outcome, considering that indoor
space are often poorly ventilated and have an excess of CO2
[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/06/health/conference-room-
ai...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/06/health/conference-room-air.html)

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mullen
This is just a Red Herring. The solution is not outdoor classes, redesigned
schools or open windows but good governance. American's have convinced
themselves that electing smart people who are skilled at government is a bad
thing and that electing populist morons who will say anything to get elected
is the path we should be taking. Had Hillary Clinton been elected, Americans
would not be in this situation and we would not be taking about these
pointless side issues. The US would have dealt with this pandemic issue months
ago and not talking about these Red Herring pointless topics. Just a
distraction and chasing miracle cures that don't exist.

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NicoJuicy
That's a great idea ( in some areas) actually

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2038AD
I've got a feeling that children are more likely to pay attention outside

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paganel
Also, the fact that many schools in the US have classes with no windows should
be made illegal, when I first heard about that I thought it was a joke (until
I saw some photos). The communists did a lot of things wrong in my country
when they came to power after WW2 but one of the things that they did do right
was to build lots and lots of new schools, and every one of the classes in
those schools had big windows by mandated design, not just as an afterthought.

~~~
doukdouk
Do you have any of those photos? I find it hard to believe.

~~~
throwaway0a5e
Most schools have all the classrooms on a perimeter so they get light. If
there's a courtyard there will likely be classrooms on the interior as well.
Rooms without windows tend to be intentionally reserved for things like
artistic use (no windows to open to screw with humidity that some materials
might not like), music (you can plaster _all_ the walls in sound deadening.

You don't tend to get windowless classrooms until decades after the building
was built and the school is simply making due with the facilities they have in
light of their changing needs. They'll shove a math class in a former art room
or something.

Back in the day windowless rooms were somewhat coveted because everyone had
lesson plans on transparencies and they'd teach using the overhead projector
the way some teachers use a PowerPoint today. Being able to turn down the
lights (and not have the sun defeat your efforts) and then have the projector
be the main focus helps keep the class on-task and keeps the teacher in better
control of rowdy classes because the people who would drift off topic and
engage in distracting chit-chat tend to drift off to sleep instead.

~~~
eitally
My elementary schools were 1) L-shaped single story with classrooms ringing
the exterior perimeter, 2) traditional 5 story brick with an atrium so both
interior and exterior rooms got natural light. Middle school was single story
again. High school was traditional 3 story brick. The only rooms without
natural light were basement rooms (for band, theatre & ROTC) under the
auditorium, which I think was 100% acceptable.

------
viburnum
Anything to avoid actually eradicating the virus, as many other countries have
done now.

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mmm_grayons
So students should be expected to operate in hundred-degree heat? It's well-
know heat harms focus and productivity. This is fine for kids in new york who
can just bundle up against the cold, but one can only do so much against heat
in places like Texas where temps can top 110.

~~~
topkai22
Come on, this obviously depends on where you are- the article is a New York
city newspaper talking about new york and the northeast.

You can't do outdoor classes in Texas in August, but by late September or
October it becomes totally feasible.

~~~
matthewowen
To add to this: the article was published in the "metropolitan" section this
weekend. It's very much intended to be local.

------
tomohawk
It is unhelpful to only look at risks due to covid without looking at those
risks in comparison to others. Optimizing for least covid problems may cause
death or morbidity due to other things to actually cause more damage.

Hospitalization rates in the US for covid is:

0% for 10 and under

.1% for 10 - 20

In the US, the number of deaths for covid is:

20 (total!) for 0 - 14

125 (total!) for 15 - 24

By comparison, suicide caused 514 deaths for 10-14 year olds, and 6500 deaths
for 15-24 year olds in 2017.

[https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide.shtml](https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide.shtml)

By comparison, the CDC estimates that around 600 children died of the flu in
2017/2018.

[https://www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/children.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/children.htm)

~~~
macintux
That rather disregards the adults who will be required to be in close
proximity to all of these children during the day, and the adults who will be
caring for these children when they’re home.

