
The long-term cost of sexual harassment - rbanffy
https://techcrunch.com/2017/07/20/the-long-term-cost-of-sexual-harassment/
======
amatecha
Knowing how extremely adversely even minor harassment can affect someone in
the workplace, I can't fathom how ANY company doesn't have an absolute-zero-
tolerance policy for harassment, especially of a sexual nature. There's
literally zero reasonable excuse for having to tolerate this kind of crap in a
work situation, including "outside-of-work" events.

~~~
david38
Because 1\. It cost money to replace people 2\. If the CEO doesn't see it as a
problem, he's not going to put resources on it. 3\. Zero-tolerance policies
are usually bad in every context. You were too flirty with a girl at work and
put your arm around her? Bam, you're fired. 4\. To understand a situation, you
have to see it from both sides.

------
codeisawesome
Why is anyone acting surprised that the man is still in place at his company,
when Mr. Grab-em-by-the-pussy is also Mr. Most-powerful-man-on-the-planet?

Especially considering he was elected by the United States of America AFTER
those comments were made public?

Control your expectations about the world people. It's only a nice place as
depicted in media. Many, many, terms and conditions sadly apply :-(

~~~
yitchelle
The "Lead by example" behaviour mode is going to get more visible in the US, I
imagine. Let's hope that most of the population has a good sense of what is
right and what is wrong and only do the right things.

~~~
pm90
We like to think that is the case, but just the presidential election itself
has shown this not to be true. I'm tired of people apologizing for Trump
voters by saying that they were choosing the lesser of two evils or whatever
other crap they say. The election showed that almost half of Americans simply
don't give a shit what their party does as long as its THEIR party, they will
continue to vote for it. Such partisanship not only gave us President Trump,
but is actively hindering efforts to reign in the descent into dictatorship.
e.g. Republican congressmen and Senators seem unwilling to address some rather
serious concerns with the Trump family because they know now that it doesn't
matter. As long as they're not "liberal snowflakes", anything, anything goes.

The optimist in me looks at the other half of Americans who still have their
good sense intact, and even those who chose not to vote. But as Robert Reich
and Dan Rather have said repeatedly: these are dangerous times for our
democracy.

------
Mz
FYI: The photo in the article is not clearly labeled, but it seems to be a
photo of the incident taken at the time it happened. She is a little Asian
woman. He towers over her.

My assumption is this noticeable size difference contributed to how strongly
this incident impacted her.

~~~
dba7dba
The article clearly states the photo is the moment he's forcibly holding the
woman's hand against her will.

~~~
Mz
I can't tell if you are trying to be helpful or trying to be critical of me. I
don't see a clear label. The photo fits the description given in the article,
but if the article clearly states that THIS, right here, is the photo in
question, I am failing to see it.

Which, you know, could just be because I have pathetic eyesight. But I
honestly do not see a clear and unequivocal indicator to that effect.

~~~
dba7dba
Trying to be helpful.

Here are the excerpts from the article.

> I realized she was taking a photo. Later, when I asked her why she had done
> that, she said she didn’t get what was going on. Being photographed in that
> situation by someone I kept hoping would help me felt terrible.

> I saved the photo my friend took, even though I hated knowing it was in my
> storage.

~~~
Mz
Yes, I saw those remarks, which is how I inferred this was the photo in
question. But I still see no statement nor caption clearly saying "THIS photo
RIGHT HERE is the photo we are talking about."

That may seem pedantic to you, but I have had a couple of law classes and I
worked in insurance for over 5 years. Those are environments in which such
distinctions matter.

I am inferring that it is the photo and you apparently agree that it is, but I
still don't believe there is a clear and unequivocal statement in the article
to that effect.

------
gerdesj
"He put his arm around my shoulders and whispered “Can’t you pretend you’re
single?” in my ear. I shrugged him off. "

At that point an approach was made and met with a clear response. That was
when things should have stopped. That is how potential relationship escalation
should work: an offer is made in some way and based on the response the
proposer gets an idea on how to proceed (in this case - bugger off).

It is absolutely unacceptable that anyone should be assaulted.

~~~
damm
It's one of the biggest problems we have. Typical response from a man is that
I'm a great catch; she just doesn't know that she wants me. Once she's had sex
with me she'll marry me.

This is actually someone threatening rape (imo). Unfortunately it's something
our President has said.

We need to stop this behavior where people think they are entitled to someone
else. We also need to have our Law enforcement act more appropriately to
handle this; ensure Rape Kits are tested promptly.

Educating our children and adults reminding them what is and what isn't
acceptable. It isn't acceptable to touch someone on the shoulder if they asked
you to remove it.

Lastly we need to call sexual harassment what it is. It's harassment; it's
something as a society we have ignored for far too long.

~~~
Mz
_Typical response from a man is that I 'm a great catch; she just doesn't know
that she wants me. Once she's had sex with me she'll marry me._

It's worse than that. For various reasons, some men are actively more
interested if you reject them. It is a little bit like the principle that
running from a bear will incite its chase instinct.

~~~
swiley
I don't know if it's the same for everyone else but growing up I was told
you're supposed to chase girls and that if you don't actively pursue them
you'll end up alone. I think that's where this kind of thing comes from.

~~~
skocznymroczny
Also, as a man, you are respected to break the girl's apparent resistance. If
you are in early stages of relationship and want to wait for the girl to be
comfortable to kiss you, you'll never get here. Asking a girl if you can kiss
her will be awkward too and will probably be a no. Leaning in and kissing her
will do the trick.

Obviously if she says no and leans away, you stop and don't try it.

~~~
Mz
I really liked the scene in some movie where Will Smith's character is
coaching some guy to lean in like 80% of the way and then let her decide
whether or not to seal the deal with a kiss.

I'm pretty picky about consent. There are men who know how to delicately
signal their interest and invite me to signal back whether or not I am
amenable. I have the general impression that such tactics get men a lot more
action than tactics that intentionally step on a woman's boundaries as a
matter of course.

~~~
pm90
This. Precisely this. I would just like to add that the lean in does work, but
only when its pretty clear that you're having a great time and are very
comfortable with each other. e.g. holding hands in a booth in a bar, dancing
together and having fun etc.

But there are also many women, in my experience, that for whatever reason,
don't or can't signal their interest or intentions. In that case I ASK them.
It sounds very awkward to say it, but if done in private (i.e. you don't shout
it out) I've actually noticed it creates a lot of comfort in the women. e.g.
once I asked a girl I was on a date with, and she said she wasn't comfortable
with PDA (we were inside a bar). I didn't push it, but after we left the bar
and nobody was in sight outside, we did make out. I like to think if I had
just "gone for it" in the bar, she would have been uncomfortable, I would feel
rejected, and generally bad things all around...

------
fwn
It's a fair point on the long-term cost of sexual harassment combined with an
uncivilized, one-sided public accusation. Do I miss something here?

Which part of the argument could not have been made without ruining a
reputation through TC reach? How far are those accusations confirmed?

I've no stake in any of those people and I am not particularly opinionated
about the current cultural matters surrounding harassment, but this is not a
very civil approach and I am not sure it does a favor for the cause of greater
awareness on the issue.

~~~
bookmarkacc
Sexual harassment is not a very civil approach either.

She states that she was inspired to share her experience (with photographic
evidence) base on accounts of other women coming forward in a similiar manner.

~~~
fwn
My criticism was meant to be valid irrespective of the actual accusations
quality. The concern would still stand for the accusation of more serious
crimes like rape, murder, genocide, etc.

Being inspired to skip the trial and personally decide to put somebody in the
pillory is an understandable, but deeply flawed motivation.

The author can, of course, make every accusation. The publication however
should not make the crime appear to be a secured fact. Breaching the
journalistic objectivity might be a current trend but is intellectually
dishonest and no service to the cause.

This looks more like vigilantism than a serious conversation.

------
owebmaster
And how do you think that individuals' behavior can lower the friction of
"male-female" relationship in a societal scale so a man wouldn't abuse a
powerful position to approach and seduce a woman and that a woman wouldn't
abuse its position of dozens of men courting her?

~~~
dang
We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14822155](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14822155)
and marked it off-topic.

~~~
owebmaster
Why?

> on: The long-term cost of sexual harassment

~~~
dang
Because it started a flamewar. Comments like
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14823319](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14823319)
are particularly bad.

