

The decline in computer science students (part 2) - edw519
http://brucefwebster.com/2008/06/24/the-decline-in-computer-science-students-part-2/

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CSchonwald
The thing that always confuses me about these articles is how IT and computer
science get equated. Its like saying doing research in applied mathematics is
great training for being an accountant. Theres certainly a relationship, but
theres certainly a huge difference between the two.

I guess the question is then: how does computer science pull a physics? Does
there need to be some analogue of Feynman + Hawking etc, where theres both
epic insight and just generally an outgoing ridiculous persona and also some
reasonably good popular expositions of deep ideas?

~~~
hugh
_Does there need to be some analogue of Feynman + Hawking etc, where theres
both epic insight and just generally an outgoing ridiculous persona and also
some reasonably good popular expositions of deep ideas?_

What ideas in CS are as interesting to the layman as the most interesting
parts of physics? Tell a layman about black holes, galactic collisions, big
bangs, quantum weirdness, nuclear fusion, or any of those other things in
physics which are unimaginably (to us) big, small, hot, cold, fast, slow, or
weird, and for the most part (with the exception of particularly dull laymen)
they'll be fascinated. How much can you tell a layman about CS that will get
the same reaction?

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ardit33
Once, I had been dating a girl for a bit, and in one of the dates I was
telling her about the distances between stars, and how there are more stars in
the universe than grains of sand in the earth. And at some point I was trying
to explain her 2001 A Space Odyssey, and the meaning behind the monoliths.
--which is pretty fascinating to any person that has some geekiness inside.

She was totally bored.

Then I switched into how Rome is awesome, and Instabul was a romantic place,
cools things to do in Europe blah blah.... a little bit more interesting to
her as she had never travelled in europe.

I quit dating her after that night. I was "sick" for a while, then in "Boston"
for a long time....

I just couldn't date a person with that low level of curiosity.

Anyways, you would be suprised on how layman might be totally un-interested to
even these cosmical events. Something it is just beyond some people, it is
like foreing stuff, that they don't need to understand, and trying to
understand will only give them headaches.

Moral of the story: When dating, never trade intelligence for beauty. You will
regret it as soon as the eye candy wears off.

~~~
bayareaguy
I think Rachel Hartman's character Lalo said it best in "Blondweg Blossoming":
the secret to being _interesting_ is being _interested_.

My wife and kids and I have a rule - I'll watch whatever 10 minute video they
want to show me on YouTube if I get to show them a 10 minute clip from Cosmos.
Let's just say they that their about at their limit of "Star Stuff" :-) But I
don't think any less of their intelligence or curiosity just because Carl
Sagan isn't their thing. My wife knows much more about philosophy then I and
my kids interest in biology and psychology is greater than mine.

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eznet
I wish I had declined my CS education. I, a recent CS graduate (Bachelor of
Science in Computer Science), have come to the conclusion that a)my education
equals squat to potential employers (and that a hand full of $300
certifications would have served as more valuable) and b)everything I learned
in 4 years of CS studies, I could have learned in half the time outside of
class - much of which I did, and then had to sit through it again in class.

I have been out of school for approximately 3 months now, have submitted well
over 100 resumes, and cannot net even a remedial hold-over job screwing in PCI
cards and fixing users' desktops. This afternoon I am throwing on a pair of
khakis and heading out to see if I can net a job waiting tables - woot!

P.S. That last sentence is literal, in about an hour I am going for a
restaurant interview... man, I am really happy I listened to my parents and
elders and made sure to go to college, so that now I have 35k in debt and no
job with which to pay it back with.

~~~
biohacker42
Been there done that, it gets better.

I got out of school with my BS in CS right at bottom of the .com bust. 2+
months of resume sending and nothing, eventually I got "network engineer"
(glorified PC repairman) job. It was fun for about a month, then it got
repetitive. 6+ month later I finally got a break and started (for slightly
less $) as junior software engineer.

So yeah right now it feels like your CS is worth less then a bunch of
certificates, but don't worry things change and in the long term you are
better of.

In fact waiting tables might be better then what I did. It could pay more if
you get lots of tips and you can keep your skills sharp outside of work, and
the temptation to specialize in your new job and forget CS isn't there.

In summary: Suck it up kid!

~~~
eznet
Ha! Thanks. Yea, I know what you are saying, and I am sure that something will
come along. I am taking my A+ next week because every 'network engineer'
position that I have applied for requires it - they do not, however, require a
CS degree. Go figure. All I can do is use this time that I have and hone my
hacking skills - something to be thankful for. Oh, and at the interview they
said the waiter positions was filled, but they will call me about the busboy
position! Yay!

~~~
ibsulon
Try applying for QA positions as well, instead of tech guy ones. Frankly, you
might be running into a problem that you're overqualified for the grunt work
positions. Further, unless you're WAY younger than your wife, you may be
running into an age discrimination issue.

I've come to the conclusion that the best thing anyone can do for themselves
to get into the corporate world is an internship during one's college years.
Most places hire their new talent from their intern pool.

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tx
Perfect. It should decline even more, because lets face it: big percentage of
CS grads aren't really "into it". The article points at year 2000 as the peak
of CS enrollments, same year when I met an ex-taxi driver and the history
teacher both turned Java programmers.

~~~
babul
Where they good programmers? Some of the best programmers I have ever met
started off doing other things in life (or never even went on a CS course).
You cannot begrudge people for starting on different life paths.

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ibsulon
I would like to see how CS minors figure into the context, as well as CIS/MIS
degrees. As someone with a CS minor (considering going back for a
BS/master's), I've found that all I needed was that first job. Certainly, I've
had my fair share of jobs that I just couldn't get into, but it's enough for
blub.

I might advise someone to get a major in Biology and a minor in CS these days.
In the corporate world, as far as I can tell, you are only as good as your
domain.

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comatose_kid
Bruce F. Webster - creater of 'Sundog, the Frozen Legacy' for the Atari ST.
And a good writer for BYTE back in the day. Thanks for the link.

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peanutcruncher
Too many bosses like lumberg (from the movie Office Space) out there.

Can't get any referrals.

Besides Microsoft and the rest are scouring the streets of third world cities
like bombay and Calcutta picking up throwaway kids and teaching them how to
program.

Only one out of 50 makes it but when they kick in they only cost $15 an hour.

Who the heck needs those expensive kids with Computer Science degrees.

