

Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say - frankiewarren
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/world/africa/libyan-fighters-say-qaddafi-stronghold-has-fallen.html?_r=1&hp

======
Aloisius
To quote Andrew Sullivan:

To rid the world of Osama bin Laden, Anwar al-Awlaki and Moammar Qaddafi
within six months: if Obama were a Republican, he'd be on Mount Rushmore by
now.

~~~
roboneal
Amazing the shift of perspective...

How many who voted for Obama (or at least against John McCain) would expect
their vote would elect a President who would violate the sovereignty of
Pakistan with a special forces operation, murder an American citizen without
due process, and enter into armed conflict with Libya without the consultation
of Congress and eventually assassinate a sitting head of state?

~~~
burgerbrain
I don't think it's known at this point that Qaddafi was assassinated by the
US. The two more common things I'm hearing is that he was either shot by
rebels or hit by a NATO air-strike, which is kind of ambiguous.

~~~
Thieum22
First was a French / NATO air strike, then rebels finished the job.

[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-20/french-air-power-
be...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-20/french-air-power-begins-ends-
nato-air-campaign-over-libya.html)

------
stfu
Somewhat sad to see that they killed that guy.

Having him testify in Den Hague could have provided very interesting insights
on how corrupt the so called "democratic" governments really are.

~~~
zerostar07
Bush, Blair, Berlusconi, Sarkozy etc. Pretty sure too many people like these
would be shamed by this lunatic. Maybe it's best that he died, the world wants
to keep its heroes.

~~~
aw3c2
You might like the german satire magazine Titanic's recent image:
[http://www.titanic-
magazin.de/postkarten.html?&card=1414...](http://www.titanic-
magazin.de/postkarten.html?&card=14144&cHash=086dcb51a1a75308be3cab75ca43d619)

"Grief about Gaddafi" "He lives on in the hearts of his friends"

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mladenkovacevic
Well I'm sure there's nothing but good times for Lybians from now on right? /s
Sorry but my framework of reference just doesn't allow me to buy into this as
a great thing for freedom and "democracy"

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civilian
I guess it's okay that he's dead, but I'm concerned about the way he was
killed. A bunch of soldiers ran into his house, stripped him, dragged him
through the streets, and shot him at some point. That is some Trojan War shit.

I'm still not convinced that the Middle East is civilized... which is why I'm
an isolationist.

I'm not very reassured by this quote from the transitional government
spokesperson: “We were serious about giving him a fair trial. It seems God has
some other wish."

~~~
kabuks
Depends on your definition of civilized.

Having been born and raised in the middle east (Egypt), I can assure you that
by many definitions of 'civilized' we fare really well compared to the US.

True, there isn't separation of religion and state, and that leads to much
'uncivilized' behavior, and a wacky sense of law.

On the other hands, we don't have nearly the same rates of murder, rape, theft
that we have here in the States. And we don't put one out of every 300 people
in prison.

Our elderly mostly die surrounded by family and friends in their homes, and
very very very few people sleep on the streets.

Our health care system is much poorer, and much more primitive than the US
system, but nobody gets turned away because of 'pre-existing' conditions or
lack of funds.

In most of the Country, if you stop someone and ask for directions, they'll
invite you to their home for a meal and be serious about it. Even though they
make less than a .50 cents a day.

So yeah, maybe broaden your idea of what 'civilized' looks like and you won't
need to isolate so much.

p.s. We cook a yummy Egyptian dinner once a month for friends, ping me and
come over next Monday for civilized discourse over foul and falafel

~~~
tkahn6
I suspect if you were a Copt you'd have a much different perspective.

~~~
potatolicious
I suspect if you were black in America you'd have a much different
perspective. Or Mexican.

There are marginalized, abused groups everywhere. The West fares no better,
though it does make it _look_ cleaner (e.g., rampant discrimination is
codified by law instead of remaining unwritten).

~~~
tkahn6
I seriously doubt blacks and Hispanics in America have to worry about being
blown up as they leave their places of worship. Violence and malice towards
Copts in Egypt is on an entirely different plane than racism experienced by
minorities in the West. These moral equivalences grow tired.

~~~
potatolicious
I'll concede the point re: on a different plane.

That said, I still believe the claim that the Middle East is "uncivilized"
(with the implication that the West is), is awfully arrogant - as if the NATO
powers haven't _all_ done far worse, just not as visibly, and far from home.

Reading some of the posts in this thread you'd swear that the mark of a
civilized people is how well they can hide their acts of brutal violence, as
opposed to simply how much brutal violence they commit.

------
huhtenberg
Do I see a pattern emerge -- sitting on a large oil reserve and not
"cooperating" with right people is detrimental to one's well-being.

~~~
rytis
Totally agree. I just wonder who's next on the list. Any bets?

~~~
huhtenberg
Venezuela, probably, if Russia would let it happen.

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kb101
One interesting tech angle to this story and the other wars in the Middle East
(Iraq and Afghanistan): the rise of remote-controlled warfare.
[http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-
east/...](http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-
east/111003/drone-wars-are-drones-making-war-too-easy)

Comparing Iraq, a messy invasion that drug on for a decade and cost hundreds
of billions, to Libya, a tactical exercise that lasted a few months and cost
only a billion plus, might not be a fair comparison, but there is no question
that remote reconnaissance, targeting, and attack capabilities have improved
dramatically since 2001. [http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05/secret-
stealth-drone...](http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05/secret-stealth-
drone-spied-on-osama-dodged-pakistanis/)

------
ttttrrrr
The mood here is very gloomy. Back when they kicked out Ben Ali and Mubarak
there was celebration on HN. I guess you're not really a dictator unless
you're an ally of the US, huh?

~~~
ugh
It’s easier to be more joyful and optimistic about peaceful (or at least more
peaceful) revolutions.

~~~
ttttrrrr
I hope yours is the correct explanation. Nevertheless, I get the feeling that
many Americans for some reason sympathize with anti-Americanist foreign
leaders, even if their own people consider them ruthless dictators. (I'm not
American, btw.)

~~~
ugh
I have never really encountered anyone in the west who sympathizes with
Qaddafi. I think his ruthlessness is pretty much consensus.

~~~
nobody314159
The same Qaddafi who was a "partner in the war on terror" when Prime minister
Blair visited in 2004 ?

Or the same Qaddafi that provided the `special questioning` facilities when
the British secret service sent the current democratic leader there to be
interrogated about terrorist links.

~~~
ugh
Things change. Opportunities arise. Again: _Shrug._

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jsherer
This article seems to be a bit "mainstream" for HN, IMHO.

~~~
frankiewarren
Sorry you felt that way, I enjoyed reading everyone's comments though. I just
reread the submission guidelines and won't submit articles like this in the
future. Still new around here.

"Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're
evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters,
or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-
topic."

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fuck_us_gaddafi
It proves that the fucking United States of America will do anything if they
want. UN is just a drama.

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fuck_us_gaddafi
American Government planted this assassination, Libyans are just the namesake.

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suivix
So its ok for other people to link to this story but not me? Really arbitrary
moderation here.

~~~
burgerbrain
The story and who was linking to it has nothing to do with it. Do a better job
naming your links next time.

