

EPA approves increase of ethanol to 15%, despite damage to older cars - ck2
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/greenhouse/post/2011/01/epa-approves-higher-ethanol-gas-blend-for-older-cars/1

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jameskilton
Lets see...

* Still using close to or over a gallon of fossile fuel to make a gallon of ethanol? Check!

* Still less efficient a fuel than straight petroleum products? Check!

* Still uses a FOOD SOURCE to create GAS? Check, double and tripple check.

* Oh and is still a massive source of government spending in subsidies that could easily be diverted to programs that help the populous instead of corn fat cats? Check.

There is literally _nothing_ good about ethanol as a vehicle fuel source. It's
disgusting and perverted how much this gets pushed as "the environmentally
safe" fuel source.

~~~
sudont
> Still uses a FOOD SOURCE to create GAS? Check, double and tripple _(sic)_
> check.

Since corn and soy-based foods are one of the leading causes of obesity, this
arguement is moot.

Not to mention it actually costs less to _buy_ a bushel of corn than it does
to produce it: corn prices are already severely subsidized by the government.
There's simply too much corn out there, and it's one of the main reasons why
"junk food" is so junky. If ethanol was being produced from romaine lettuce
and turnips, I'd be more alarmed.

For now, it's just one more little subsidy on top of an already massive
agribusiness planned economy.

However, ethanol really has no place in fuel. The only benefit to E10 is that
you don't need to use Heet in your gas tank in the winter.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"Since corn and soy-based foods are one of the leading causes of obesity"_

In the US, yes. There are many cultures that have been heavily soy-based, for
example, for centuries without health issues.

Furthermore, there are even more developing countries on Earth that rely on
corn as a staple food. The diversion of corn supplies to create fuel over food
is widely regarded as a main cause of the last food price crisis, which
impacted poor countries disastrously (compared to the rather mild price hikes
seen in this country). There is also the issue of land being used to grow
_other_ non-corn food crops being diverted to corn-fuel farming, thus further
reducing food production.

If the entire world was just the US, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but we
don't exist in a vacuum.

~~~
sudont
There's a major difference between eating soy products and eating washed soy
proteins that are combined with corn to create heavily processed foods. And
while soy isn't directly correlated with obesity, it's usefulness as a protein
has created additional venues for corn to be used.

Furthermore, corn is generally used on feedlots for beef, and disastrously:
beef there contains whacked-out levels of fat types, and is much more fatty
overall.

In terms of internationalism: the French, long held as bastions of good
eating, are experiencing similar patterns of obesity as per the US in the
early '90's as French diets change to fast foods and prepared meals.

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oasisbob
I'm surprised (ok, not really, it's USA Today) that the article doesn't
mention the hygroscopic nature of ethanol.

Gasoline, being composed of various hydrocarbons, doesn't mix with water, nor
will it absorb water under normal circumstances.

Ethanol is miscible with water, meaning you can mix any quantity of ethanol
with any quantity of water and they won't separate. (A good example is
alcoholic drinks: 2% beer and 190 proof liquor both are stable solutions.)

A side-effect of being miscible with water is that ethanol is hygroscopic: it
will absorb water from the air.

When you mix ethanol with gasoline, the ethanol retains its hygroscopic
nature, and will absorb water. This is not good. Under the right circumstances
(eg marine use) the ethanol will absorb enough water to come out of solution.
This is not good for engines.

~~~
ck2
Sorry for picking USA Today, I was kinda lazy about searching alternates, here
are many choices:

[http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&...](http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&cf=all&ncl=dm4bijnpscvxxGM9VjrPUPjmC3FKM)

I drive a mid-1990's car and I accidentally discovered it performed much
better and got significantly better mileage when I filled up at a remote gas
station that didn't use ethanol. All the stations in the city use ethanol :-(

This is a 50% increased allowance which the fuel industry will definitely take
advantage for the higher profits.

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byoung2
I wish the government would shift focus away from corn subsidies for ethanol
toward funding a buildout of electric vehicle charging infrastructure. If we
could increase electric vehicle adoption by 5%, we could do a lot more toward
the goal of transitioning away from foreign oil than ethanol will (oh the
irony of harvesting corn with diesel-powered tractors). We can't do that until
every shopping mall, office building, and grocery store has at least a few
dozen charging stations.

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ohyes
Our energy (electric) grid is mostly coal.

So all you get (for now) is an extra level of indirection away from the
burning of fossil fuels (and therefore a loss of efficiency through
transmission).

You end up with what is (effectively) an oil powered car (in most states;
certain states it would be nuclear, oil, hydro or natural gas).

Of course, I agree with you, we should expand electrical infrastructure and
remove corn subsidies. But electric cars don't inherently save us from the
detrimental aspects of burning fossil fuels. You have to change the source of
the energy that we are putting on the grid as well.

Here's a neat visualization I found of the energy grid:
[http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1109973...](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=110997398)

~~~
byoung2
_But electric cars don't inherently save us from the detrimental aspects of
burning fossil fuels. You have to change the source of the energy that we are
putting on the grid as well._

You're right - in the short term an electric car is a coal/oil car. The
advantage of abstracting out the energy source from the car by using
electricity is that it can get cleaner over time. A car that gets 30 mpg today
will get no more than that 10 years from now. An electric car that gets 300
miles on the equivalent of 20 gallons of gas/coal/oil can get more efficient
over time as the grid gets upgraded to phase out fossil fuels. It is far
easier to upgrade the 5000 or so power plants in the US than constantly
upgrade the few hundred million cars on the road from gas to ethanol to
hydrogen to mystery fuel.

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ck2
When is the corn industry welfare for billionaires going to end?

Ethanol in gas in already causing damage to cars made before 2000 and 2-stroke
engines. Not to mention it's causing a huge increase in corn based food prices
and resource shortages while reducing exports.

~~~
lionhearted
> When is the corn industry welfare for billionaires going to end?

I'm generally not a fan of state-operated welfare programs, but labeling this
welfare is unfair to welfare... this is just plain ol' fashioned corruption.
State-run welfare programs can have some benefits if they're designed okay.
Corruption... not so much.

~~~
ck2
I purposely abuse the term "welfare" because of it's weight and how it's
contradictory to be extremely wealthy but yet receive government assistance.

"heavily subsidized" and "high import tariffs" don't quite paint the right
picture of the obscenity that's going on, they soften it.

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sigzero
Great, now I have to check and make sure it isn't going to damage my
motorcycle too.

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fluidcruft
Did anyone actually read the article? It's only approved for cars and trucks
2001 and newer, and will be specifically labeled. Just don't use it if your
car is a pre-2001 make, right? What's the problem?

~~~
ck2
Once there is tolerance of 15%, the other regular pumps which are allowed 10%
will certainly get that, forever. One day politicians will want something else
to please the corn billionaires and throw them 15% across all pumps as long as
there are "labels".

It's very difficult to find a pump these days without ethanol and pre-2001
cars are going to be around for awhile given today's car prices.

Basically the EPA should be cutting it down to 5%, but now they are going in
the other direction regardless of the consequences.

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m_myers
In my area, gas stations must tell you if they have ethanol in their fuels.
Those that do, do it with tiny stickers on the pumps. Those that don't, put
big signs by the road advertising their 100% gasoline.

A lot of stations which sold E10 have had to switch since the labeling law
went into effect. People just don't want ethanol.

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1010011010
I wonder how much ADM paid for that law.

