
“I'm surrounded by people - but I feel so lonely” - gadders
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45561334
======
a008t
I think the way the internet has changed in the last decade has contributed to
loneliness significantly.

10-15 years ago, the internet was full of small independent communities:
message boards, IRC channels, chat rooms of all kinds, etc. You could really
"hang out" with the same people and get to know them.

But something killed pretty much all of them. Instead we have centralized
"social media" that is at best all about narcissism and self-promotion. Sites
like Reddit where there is too many people and everyone converges to a single
"hive-mind", you cannot have someone reply to an interesting post you made
years ago, and that really take the humanity out of the whole thing (like
Facebook or Tinder or what not). Even HN is problematic in this regard - it is
good for the purpose it exists for, but you cannot have any sort of casual
threads or discussions just to get any sort of rapport within the community.

Even messengers have somehow become worse in this regard. Yahoo/MSN
messengers, ICQ etc. were somehow all about having connections with online
friends. Maybe it is just me, but there just doesn't seem to be an option that
works for this as well nowadays. Or at least people do not seem to use the
existing options in the same way.

~~~
dexen
> _message boards, IRC channels, chat rooms of all kinds, etc_

> _But something killed pretty much all of them._

Not in the least.

Interest-driven, channel-centric communities are alive and kicking, from IRC
through Discord, Steam and other gaming communities, to Youtube/BitChute
comment sections (nasty as they may be) and new meta-/platforms like Mastodon
or Minds.com.

What has changed is the expanded version of Eternal September - influx of
newcommers who join the ?book / ?gram / ?itter du jour, enjoy the interface
candy and the occasional outrage, and are very slow to - or even fail to -
explore the wider net of chats and other communities. It certainly doesn't
help that media tend to paint all non-mainstream platforms as dark, scarry
underbelly of the internet with nothing of value to offer, best to be avoided.
[1]

The slow filtering in of new users into smaller communities is not even
necessarily a bad thing, as quick influx of newcommers to interest communities
can easily disrupt them to the point of derailing. The IRC and the likes being
a cozy hangout where friendships are forged and projects are kicked off isn't
based on a particular technical quirk of the IRC protocol or clients. It's all
thanks to the established, cozy & social culture[2] being able to take in a
certain amount of newcomers, guide them in and let them grow into part of the
community. _Moving too fast tends to break things._

[1] the smartphone is also partly to blame, as it's much less comfortable for
extended back-and-forth conversations than a computer; IMO it's more of a
prepackaged content consumption terminal. But that's a personal, debatable
opinion.

[2] certain glaring exceptions notwithstanding

~~~
a008t
I remember often stumbling on online communities and message boards on Google
when looking for something ~15 years ago. Most people in those communities
also stumbled on them through Google. I cannot remember a single time I saw
one in search results recently.

So either Google is deliberately excluding them, or they actually ceased to
exist for the most part, or it has been a self-perpetuating cycle and one
cannot pinpoint what came first - exodus to 'social media' or disappearance
from Google search results.

------
Cthulhu_
I think this is a major factor why I'm afraid to leave my job and find
something more fulfilling and better paying; at this moment, without my job
and colleagues (and the light casual interactions I have during the day), my
social life would be reduced to some online friends (who are lately only
intermittently active themselves) and my cat. I'm sure I'd be able to rebuild,
and it might even be a good development in the long run both socially and
financially, but in the short term it'll be a problem.

But that's how it goes. Every time I (/ one) leaves their school or job or the
place they live, most of the people you see daily will be out of your life
completely. I'm not the type to really reach out like "hey you wanna hang
out", but then apparently nobody else is either so idk if it's just me.

~~~
CPLX
A crucial thing to do as you pass out of your 20's is to figure out a
mechanism to regularly get together with the people in your life. It's simple
stuff, like throwing a monthly happy hour, or dinner parties, or a yearly
camping trip, or whatever. The details don't really matter that much, they
should match who you are.

Invite all the people you'd really like to see and stay in touch with. And an
important point, don't _worry_ about it. Many times people won't be able to
come, or won't care, or will drop out for awhile and return, or who knows.

That's not important, and it's really important to dispense with the anxiety
that comes from being a host, worrying about if people will like it, if
they'll like you, if they're happy, if enough people are coming, all that.
Don't worry about that part, the point is just to have some kind of reference
point and the ability to reach out to people and say hey let's stay in contact
in the real world.

A lot of people let this slip, and end up ten years later surrounded
exclusively by people they connect to through work or parenting, plus
occasional family. That's a mistake in my opinion.

~~~
jaymzcampbell
I would very much second this advice. I've only recently started to take a
more concerted effort to stay in touch with people. I was terrible in my 20s
(I'm now 35) with avoiding all the social contact that I could. My girlfriend
took the opposite approach and would just go out and develop new friendships.

I'm lucky to have developed strong friendships from work colleagues over the
years but I feel like I neglected some of my transient friendships.

That said it's never too late, it's easy to convince yourself "oh this person
will never want to hear from me after all this time" but you'd be surprised.
The older you get the less I find the time between meeting matters, it's the
fact you're reaching out.

------
yaps8
Being old and lonely / alone is really terrifying.

> Jack still misses his late wife desperately. [...] "The weekend is a dismal
> time," says Jack. "The time can drag. I don't have any friends because all
> my friends are dead. All the ladies I loved are dead. At this age nearly
> everybody is dead - except me. I'm still here at 96-and-a-half."

~~~
stephengillie
So make new friends. Old people are people.

~~~
simplemts
It's hard to make friends with people and I'm in my 30s. I can't imagine how
hard it would be to "find new people" when you are 90+ and probably can't even
drive.

~~~
charlesdm
My grandfather, who is 85, made a new friend a few months ago. He's in his 80s
as well.

So it's definitely possible!

~~~
astura
Yeah, my grandma had an extremely active social life well into her 80s (she
died at 85ish) even with significant mobility problems. She lost my grandpa 15
years before she died.

------
coldtea
The key is intimacy, not mere headcount.

And intimacy is superficial when the other is just an account on some social
website. It's very easy to ignore the plight of the other, or tune out to more
entertaining things.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
_And intimacy is superficial when the other is just an account on some social
website. It 's very easy to ignore the plight of the other, or tune out to
more entertaining things._

Sure, it can be. Or it might be the opposite. I met my spouse playing some
random online game. I moved across an ocean a few years after we met, and I'm
still happy 5 years later. I have had friendships that are just as meaningful
as the in-person friendships I've had.

The only time it isn't possible to tune out the plight of others is when the
others live with you. Even then, there are ways.

~~~
coldtea
> _Sure, it can be. Or it might be the opposite._

As with everything that's not a law of physics or logic.

But it's more often that way than the opposite, and the nature of the "online
friend" relationship (remote, mediated by UIs, not committal, etc) makes it
so.

------
waterhouse
Proposed definition: Loneliness is needing some kind of interaction from other
people, and not getting it.

Proposed understanding: People likely need to have enough of each of several
different kinds of interaction (analogy: nutrients), and different people need
different amounts of them. Kinds of interaction that at least some people need
probably include: intellectual, sharing of problems, "merely seeing another
human's face", romantic, sexual, sharing of hobbies/interests...

~~~
tcbawo
I believe that loneliness comes from lacking people that are emotionally
invested in you. The strongest bonds and closest relationships people tend to
have are family (blood and marriage), which often come with a high cost to
sever. The easier it is to walk away, the more superficial the relationship.
Loneliness is a realization (or fear) that nobody is there when you need them.
It isn't a modern problem, but modern life seems to be exacerbating it.

------
Hard_Space
Above a certain age, you need to make a determined effort to meet new friends.
My partner and I both work freelance, and so we are aware of the potential to
cloister up, particularly in a cold eastern European winter. So we make
definite effort to meet new people, go for drinks or dinner, and maintain and
develop such friendships and give them a chance.

~~~
hd4
_Above a certain age_

I've wondered about this a lot. I don't think our generation (I'm assuming
most of us are millenials) operates in this regard in the way even our parents
did and other than the prevalence of social media and possibly because of more
diverse demographics, I can't really understand why that is.

Why _do_ we suddenly get very inward-looking in our 30s when it comes to
forming new friendships, especially among the more affluent?

~~~
compcoffee
> _Why do we suddenly get very inward-looking in our 30s when it comes to
> forming new friendships_

This is typically the time when you or those in your age cohort are focusing
on their families. Time is at a premium.

~~~
buboard
It happens equally to single people.

~~~
a008t
People become jaded?

------
sbov
Finding a good neighborhood helps a lot with this.

We've made more friends in a couple years in the suburbs than the 8 we lived
in SF. We know everyone on our block. We all go out after work so people's
kids can play with eachother in our street - even people without kids come out
to chat about things. People invite others over to BBQ. And so on.

------
rimliu
Now when I think about it, I spend _a lot_ of my time alone. I lived alone
from 17 to 37, I parted ways with my only true friend when I was 24… yet I do
not recall being horribly lonely. And I think people should learn to spend
more time alone and, most important, undistracted. It looks like many are
afraid ot the silence, or the voices from within they'd hear if they are alone
and in silence. Forget your headphones (and maybe phone too) and go for a
half-days walk. You may find something interesting even without going to the
new places.

~~~
umichguy
" And I think people should learn to spend more time alone and, most
important, undistracted. It looks like many are afraid ot the silence, or the
voices from within they'd hear if they are alone and in silence."

I am totally guilty of this. I really just can't sit in a silent environment
without going crazy. At least need music. My GF and I broke up after a 2yr
long relationship, having shared an apartment. She left and moved to a
different city, coming home to an empty place after a long day at work was a
bit too much sometimes, especially during the weekends. So when the contract
ended I actually moved into a house share, where I like the company, there is
usually someone always around.

I am 35 and have never ever lived in a place by myself, apart from when I was
in a relationship or something.

------
dijit
I still have my IRC friends. That might sound sad to you, dear reader, but the
bonds are strong.

We've gone through life together. Being primarily online means I can "uproot"
and move anywhere. Sure, I miss going and having a beer or a hackathon, but
flights are fairly cheap so we can do it once a while and those interactions
are actually better for that.

I am super lucky to have what amounts to a social group that's been around 15+
years. I wonder if this level of interaction is enough for everyone or if I'll
have some weird breakdown in 5 years.

------
agumonkey
Scream. Express yourself. That's how you get out of loneliness. It's awkward
if not painful for many (including me) but based on my own experience that's
how you solve it.

------
havetocharge
In my view, a significant factor in people feeling lonely is due to the
unwillingness of most to reach out to others. Many people, and in my
experience younger ones more than older, are waiting to be approached,
queried, interviewed, prompted. I think there's a failure to realize that most
people have good intent, and would be willing to help out with advice and
opinion, but this opportunity is rarely exploited.

------
trippypig
a child in the park

said hello to me today

she mustn't have been

four years old

not yet old enough

to be scared

of an old hobo

sitting on a bench

levity for my worn soul

a barrel fire

in blast winter cold

so rare to feel something real

i smiled a lot as a child

i remember ms gibson

her jocular bellow

‘ain't startin' this class

‘til that boy stops smiling’

the same ms gibson

who said

seriously this time

‘y’all poor, all of youse’

‘y’all ain’t amount to nothin’

i guess she knew

a teacher's clairvoyance

look at me now:

a hobo sitting on a bench

how did i get here?

how can i be so alone?

that a small child's hello

could move me so?

------
Theodores
Some of the loneliest people are those faces you see on television. Some of
them have no real friends even though they are mixing it with the celebrity
famous types and have adoring fans. In reality they might have their parents
and that is it for support, then those parents might be the pushy types that
wanted superstar kids so not the best type of loving parents.

This absence and loneliness is hard to imagine given the public persona.
Seemingly they have it all. But, after the studio lights go down they get
bundled off into a taxi, to get driven home. Meanwhile the rest of the
production crew pack up and go to the pub because 'it is a wrap'.

The production crew will also be professional in that they will respect the
'talent' (people in front of camera are 'talent') and not make clumsy,
unprofessional advances. This is not always the case, in Hollywood women are
still expected to sleep with the producer or director to keep getting the
roles, however, this is the exception, your average lighting engineer or sound
guy will have nothing but professional respect.

These lonely stars of TV also don't really relate to their fans, it is a
different world they work in and know. It is also a one-way relationship, a
fan may know everything about the lonely 'star' but the 'star' will know
nothing of the fan's life. So sometimes you do get major 'A list' celebrities
types hitching their wagon to some member of the crew who can relate to them.

Because of how TV gigs are freelance there is also no feeling for the 'talent'
that they are part of a company thing. They are just hired for the day, with
no continuity. They also might have to spend half their time on location or
living in hotels, in this way they end up with no community and don't know
their neighbours.

Then youth gets extinguished and the wrinkles set in... So then the gigs are
few and far between. Life becomes a struggle.

Think of how many celebrity types from TV and music die horrifically alone. Or
with a substance abuse problem for company. It happens all the time. Despite
the millions of fans they can end up knowing nobody with nobody to trust.

Margaret Thatcher died as a very lonely woman, yet once their was a time when
the world would hang on her every word, albeit to probably hate her. Her
family didn't care, however, due to being a former Prime Minister she did have
police protection until the bitter end. Yet nobody could even be bothered to
throw insults at her, and, as every narcissist knows, hate is at least
'attention'. She wasn't even getting that during her final days, a cruel and
unusual punishment. Tony Blair is probably in the same predicament, I found
his autobiography at the local tip the other day and I am sure that is
indicative of how people feel about the 'once great man'.

At the other end of the scale are people that work and live in a small
community, e.g. village sized, know everyone, have lovely family, a life long
partner and not a lot of material riches. These are some of the happiest and
least lonely people in the world. They might not have got very far, e.g. to
spend their working life as a local builder, they might not know anyone famous
and yet they have all the ingredients for the rewarding life that eludes those
faces on TV that seem to have it all.

In an age when everyone seeks superstardom - 'get rich or die trying' \- the
local folk that 'did not get very far' are having the last laugh.

------
gaspoweredcat
welcome to the modern world! the media and other influences have done a great
job in driving a wedge between all different types of people to the point that
were all barely able to communicate let alone socialise or possibly make
friends

~~~
cyborgx7
Friends aren't profitable. You are much easier to be exploited if you are by
yourself.

~~~
icebraining
Anecdotally, the people I know who socialize (IRL) the most also spend the
most, often into debt. Friends pull you into expensive activities, provoke a
need of one-upmanship, etc. Whereas the people who give up "the race" are
often loners.

(This is not an argument against having friends, mind you!)

Of course, it could be argued that social networks are a way to re-engineer
"friendships" so that they provoke the spending part (looking good on the
feed, winning in stupid games, etc) without giving the satisfaction that one
might get from just spending time with them.

~~~
cyborgx7
>Of course, it could be argued that social networks are a way to re-engineer
"friendships" so that they provoke the spending part (looking good on the
feed, winning in stupid games, etc) without giving the satisfaction that one
might get from just spending time with them.

I'm actually seing similar strategies employed all over the place. Ever brand
wants to build a "community" around them. But they are not doing anything to
foster the connection between members. Because if the members formed
connections they could act in solidarity with eachother and actually gain some
amount of power through collective action.

No, the only part of "community" they foster is the loyalty aspect. Loyalty to
the brand. Because that is the part that is profitable.

