
How jeans conquered the world (2012) - prmph
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17101768
======
syphilis2
It's surprisingly difficult to find a pair of jeans that I really like, and
I've taken to altering my own to make up for the shortcomings.

Nearly all have reduced the number of belt loops to 5, so I always add 2 more
in the back on either side.

I've started seeing really short zippers, which is unfixable and best to
avoid.

I've noticed a lot of ill fitting jeans bunch around the crotch or suffer from
being a "cheap hotel". Also unfixable.

Most are not lined inside around the waist and pockets.

Sometimes the pocket hole is cut too high, making it awkward to put your hand
in the pocket. Or worse, theres not enough give on the pocket to fit your hand
in.

Buttons and buttonholes don't always match well, especially on a button fly. I
think it's easier to enlarge the holes, but sometimes the buttons can be oddly
small.

And of course measurements are unreliable, but that's true of all clothes.

These are nitpicky things, but I notice them all the time at all price ranges.
I expect they're decisions made out of carelessness, or to save costs, or
because that was the intend result. Cynically, I believe carelessness is the
most common cause.

~~~
pfooti
I wear duluth trading jeans. The model I buy [0] is made in the usa, although
there is also a less-expensive model. It's nice especially because I'm pretty
short, and it's nice to find 30" inseam pants without having to dig and dig.
They even have 28" in some models.

I also typically buy about three pairs of shorts from them every so often,
since I know they fit and that way I don't have to decide about which shorts
to wear. They tend to run a bit small (or other pants run a little big), so I
add 2" to the waist size when I order from them.

I just counted: 7 belt loops. Also a nice crotch gusset.

EDITed to add: I've been informed that these are "dad jeans" and in no way
fashionable.

0: [http://www.duluthtrading.com/store/mens/mens-pants/mens-
deni...](http://www.duluthtrading.com/store/mens/mens-pants/mens-denim-
jeans/84011.aspx)

~~~
saulrh
I'll second the recommendation for Duluth Trading Co. I've been wearing these
[1] for a while and they're great. Every pair of jeans I owned before that
wore through at the knees and the crotch within a couple of years; these are
still going strong with no signs of thinning or fraying. They're also _super_
comfy, not confining or restricting at all, and they come with giant pockets.

Can't comment on the fashion, but I've gotten compliments about them before.
That may just be because the heavy-cargo-pants form factor works well for my
frame, however.

[1] [http://www.duluthtrading.com/store/mens/mens-pants/work-
pant...](http://www.duluthtrading.com/store/mens/mens-pants/work-pants-for-
men/71703.aspx)

------
baus
Japan is at the pinnacle of denim these days (although the US is catching up
again). If you want to go off the deep end, take a look at SF based Self Edge
[[http://www.selfedge.com](http://www.selfedge.com)] or NY based Blue in Green
[[https://blueingreensoho.com/](https://blueingreensoho.com/)]

~~~
huac
Blue Owl in Seattle is good too.

These denim stores are mostly focused on _raw_ denim, which is generally a
much higher quality garment than available normally.

~~~
nightski
The quality difference would have to be substantial. I bring in a very high
income for my area, and the thought of spending $300-$400 on a single pair of
jeans is pretty out there.

An $80 pair of jeans, which will often be on sale for $40-$50 will last me for
2-3 years and are of average quality.

It seems to me like one would have to justify these jeans on the
fashion/novelty aspect, and not quality/value as it just isn't there imho.

~~~
chris_7
At $200 you can buy Outlier pants (or Mission Workshop, no experience with
those though). At $400 you can buy freaking Arc'teryx Veilance pants. That's
way too much for something that is just cotton (and not even etaProof or
anything interesting).

~~~
Nav_Panel
Tell that to someone who'd buy a pair of Vetements pants for $1200[1]. And
it's standard Levi's denim! But hey, the fly goes all the way around...

In other words, the fashion aspect does matter to people, oftentimes more than
any practical aspect. (I think sometimes people take it to a silly degree...)

1: [http://www.barneys.com/product/vetements-zip-around-
straight...](http://www.barneys.com/product/vetements-zip-around-straight-
jeans-504851157.html)

~~~
squeaky-clean
I don't think Vetements is a fair comparison though as they're based around
that sort of hype and designer fashion. There's really no reason for such high
prices aside from exclusivity and who the designers are. If some people like
that, that's fine, but they're not being bought specifically for quality and
looks you can't find elsewhere.

Even the founder/designer jokes that he wouldn't pay full price for his own
designs.

[http://www.complex.com/style/2016/05/vetements-designer-
demn...](http://www.complex.com/style/2016/05/vetements-designer-demna-
gvasalia-pay-full-price-brand-clothes)

> My friends very often can’t afford the clothes. Like myself, I wear
> prototypes but I don’t think I’m crazy fashion enough to go and buy those
> things. I’d rather go on holiday. I feel like it brings more use. Holidays
> are important. Holidays and quality time on your sofa.

~~~
Nav_Panel
Heh, yeah, that was sort-of what I wanted to emphasize. I feel like some of
the appeal of high-priced denim is for the fashion aspects, even if the
quality is a little better than Levi's or similar mass-produced stuff.

> Even the founder/designer jokes that he wouldn't pay full price for his own
> designs.

I really don't blame him. A lot of it seems like jokey conceptual art stuff.
Cute to look at/think about but I probably wouldn't wear.

------
jeffbarr
Back when I was a kid (born in 1960), jeans were called dungarees and you
could wear them after school but not at school. This was in the northeastern
part of the US, in a middle-class, public school environment. It was
definitely not acceptable to wear jeans to a professional job until much
later. In fact, I had to wear a tie at some of my first jobs as a developer.

------
eikenberry
I used to wear jeans 100% of the time. Then I had kids and as they grew up
they hated jeans, said they were uncomfortable, that their school uniforms
(cotton) pants were more comfortable. After having trouble finding good jeans
I decided to give pants a try and haven't looked back. They are so much more
comfortable than jeans and wear better than the jeans I was getting, plus they
look nicer in a professional environment. I just got rid of my last pair of
jeans a few months ago and don't plan on buying them again.

------
Analemma_
A far as male pants/trousers go, your choices are basically jeans, corduroys,
or khakis (chinos). Corduroys are uncomfortably warm, IME, and of the
remaining two jeans are a clear winner for convenience: they don't need to be
ironed (chinos look terrible as soon as they get even slightly wrinkled, jeans
do not), and they better conceal small spills and stains. Not much more to it
than that, for me.

~~~
coldtea
> _A far as male pants /trousers go, your choices are basically jeans,
> corduroys, or khakis (chinos)_

Why, what happened to cotton lycra, herringbone, linen, traditional business
suit trousers etc?

~~~
anigbrowl
It's interesting but sad that you're being so heavily downvoted for suggesting
options outside the subcultural norm. When I was a young hacker coming to work
in jeans was frowned upon and I had to put up with a lot of hassle for looking
too casual. I've been surprised and disappointed to see the emergence of
'casual conformism' which encourages comfort but retains hostility to anything
too different from the common tribal signifiers.

~~~
chrisseaton
Right - west-coast tech companies have a dress code as strict as old fashioned
companies - it just has different things on the list.

In reality, no work place or social event has no dress code. We've just made
it even harder by not having names for any of it.

When I worked in a very traditional industry the dress code was always clear -
semi-formal, informal, planter's, etc all had clear specific meanings and you
could not make a mistake. When I go to a Google office, or a fashionable
wedding they say 'wear whatever you are comfortable in' but if I wore a suit
to Google or jeans to the wedding I'd be doing it wrong, so it's not honest.

------
jakub_g
I must be a weird one, but while I used to like jeans, I stopped wearing them
a few years ago. I only wear cotton pants those days.

Every time I wear jeans, I'd feel itching very soon, particularly when it's
hot, or when I wear the same pants two days in a row.

I'm not sure if either I didn't notice this before, or did _I_ change, or the
production process of the jeanswear has changed.

~~~
remir
You should try denim with elastane. I bought a cheap pair from Old Navy and
they're really comfortable, almost like wearing sweat pants.

------
icc97
When 90% of the people around you are all wearing some shade of blue jeans,
its a bit the same as everybody driving around in cars in some shade of grey
(which they do at least in Belgium).

That is, it's just really boring. Colour is one of the few things we've got to
express ourselves, so it's a shame we don't use it more.

~~~
dualogy
> _Colour is one of the few things we 've got to express ourselves_

Oh people find all other sorts of mildly yawnworthy ways "to express
themselves", from oddly-placed piercings to full-face tattoos to half-
baldshaved-half-manbun hairdos to oh-so-snowflake band t-shirts to rainbow-
colored socks... among all the noise and clutter, "more colorful pants"
wouldn't particularly stand out to me as expressive, whereas by now an
unadulterated unmutilated well-nourished clear-eyed non-screen-zombified come-
as-you-are face, _nowadays_ , would. In fact, the blander and minimal the
clothes and peripherals, the more one's face and head will stand out on its
own! That's today's ultimate self-expression, allowing your natural self to
shine through in full glory absent all the countless "customization options"
people go through to carve out their "unique" avatars =)

~~~
throwaway12a123
Ah, Normcore.

~~~
dualogy
Except in the big cities among the millenials, "normies" seem to become "the
intriguing minority" by now =)

------
ilamont
The thing that bothers me about buying jeans in the U.S. is the near-universal
product segmentation based on 2-inch intervals for waist and inseam (32", 34",
36", etc.). It's rare to find jeans with a 33-, 35-, or 37-inch waist, or a
31" inseam. Because my measurements don't fit what's available in the stores,
I often restock when traveling overseas.

~~~
dgudkov
More expensive brands typically have 1-inch intervals, so finding 31- or
33-inch waist isn't a problem.

------
silviogutierrez
On jeans as an aesthetic choice, I have no strong opinion. Like everything
else, they can look good or bad depending on fit/color/etc.

But jeans for comfort? Maybe I'm the only one, but I find pants infinitely
more comfortable. Even wool dress pants.

And in the summer, jeans barely breath at all.

~~~
ashark
I felt that way as a kid (wait, can I please just wear my "dress clothes" all
the time? These jeans _suck_!) through my early 20s, but I'm back on jeans now
and they're not uncomfortable. Might be a body shape thing (that certainly
changed—I got much skinnier) or maybe a body type/brand mismatch; I know I had
the cheapest thing readily available as a kid—usually Lee or Wrangler—and now
I wear mid-range ordinary Levis, _not_ their cheaper department-store targeted
sub-labels.

------
anigbrowl
I stopped wearing them 2 years ago and don't miss them at all. Of course I
still have some and will put them on sometimes when its practical, but modern
denim just doesn't seem to be as hard wearing as it used to be, and I'm also
sick of the weight and poor fit.

I was especially annoyed a few years ago to find my favorite brand had
slightly shortened the zipper, thus eliminating the whole benefit of being
able to pee standing up because it was difficult to get my hand inside the
smaller opening and uncomfortable to have it pinching me while I use the
toilet. I'm sure the small savings on shorter zippers add up in the corporate
accounts, but why would you make it more difficult for half the population to
do something they need to do multiple times a day? They do the same sort of
things with women's jeans by making the pockets too small to fit anything into
(not to mention all the problems of getting a good fit since women's body
shapes seem to vary more than men's).

Economically jeans are an interesting example of commodity fetishism
systematically making the product worse, as the emphasis shifts to fashionable
display over comfort and functionality, and eventually the latter begins to be
sacrificed in pursuit of the former. The oddest example I've seen of this was
a UK startup that proposed to give people free jeans for 6 months or a year so
that they'd wear them in and then ship them back for sale at a high price to
fashionistas who wanted an authentically distressed look rather than one
inflicted with a power tool at the jean factory. In other words, people will
pay money to look poorer than they actually are.

~~~
ashark
> I was especially annoyed a few years ago to find my favorite brand had
> slightly shortened the zipper, thus eliminating the whole benefit of being
> able to pee standing up because it was difficult to get my hand inside the
> smaller opening and uncomfortable to have it pinching me while I use the
> toilet.

Button fly is the only way to fly. Started as a skeptic, now a total convert.

~~~
anigbrowl
I had the same experience. I wonder if it was the popular resurgence of the
button fly that led to the zippers getting shortened.

~~~
soperj
I'd think it'd be the opposite, but I can barely find a button fly where I
live.

~~~
DKnoll
I bet you can find a pair of Levi 501s.

~~~
soperj
those were the only ones (why i said barely)

------
eddof13
For all the guys (and gals) out there, let me introduce you to the Diesel
JoggJeans. They look like jeans, coming in various washes, cuts and styles,
but they are sweatpants. May you never go back.

~~~
nabaraz
Or Uniqlo jogger jeans.

[https://www.uniqlo.com/us/en/men/jeans/joggers](https://www.uniqlo.com/us/en/men/jeans/joggers)

~~~
Cyph0n
Thanks for the link, never heard of that store.

~~~
ry_ry
Uniqlo do pretty decent quality jeans for the price. Definitely worth checking
out.

------
digi_owl
Ans as any such symbol, marketing departments soon learned how to de-fang and
package them for easy consumption.

~~~
coldtea
Not that there were any big fangs to begin with. This isn't a culture, like
punk or whatever, it is just a garment.

~~~
anigbrowl
I disagree, jeans had significant cultural significance. As well as being
associated with The West and the gold rush in particular, jeans were a strong
signifier of working-class origins for a good while, and I bet if I were to
show you a bunch of different jean logos you'd easily distinguish between
those that are sold for fashion and those that are 'work wear'.

------
muninn_
I'll never go back from Naked and Famous raw denim. Great customer service,
too.

------
dgudkov
I wonder if the same will be written about yoga pants. They're everywhere
nowadays. Some women even wear them for work (that is not related to yoga).

------
jscipione
This is yet another example of how America, especially the American West has
transformed the culture of people world-wide.

