
The Gay Marriages of a Nineteenth-Century Prison Ship - samclemens
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-gay-marriages-of-a-nineteenth-century-prison-ship
======
kentosi
Fascinating article.

I can assume that most of these men were not gay, but rather used gay sex as
an outlet for pleasure given the hopeless circumstances they were in.

What struck to me most though, is the eventual development of romantic
relations where partners would pamper each other with gifts. To me this shows
a deeper need for a human connection beyond just sex.

~~~
zozbot234
> were not gay, but rather used gay sex as an outlet for pleasure given the
> hopeless circumstances they were in

MSM behavior is on a spectrum, that moreover encompasses both deprivation-
based homosexuality (the kind you get in "hopeless" circumstances with no
access to heterosexual relationships) and dominance-based homosexuality (MSM
sex as a raw exertion of dominance by one participant towards the other).
These sorts of practices need not have much to do with "sexual orientation",
as understood today.

In ancient Mediterranean cultures, being a _dominant_ participant in MSM
encounters was something "anyone" could do, and was not understood as anything
unusual. It was only the submissive partner that was considered highly
feminized. This same model shows up in other ancient cultures, e.g. in East
Asia. The modern Western understanding where MSM practices boil down to a gay
"sexual orientation" that's equally shared by both partners is historically
novel.

~~~
dhimes
For those of you who also don't know what MSM stands for
(Methylsulfonylmethane?):

Men who have Sex with Men

------
martopix
I quite enjoy the description of gifts and mutual affection, but nothing in
this article is new or surprising -- not sure if I'm more familiar than the
average reader with queer history or everybody will feel the same.

It's in general quite astonishing to see how different the view of homosexual
relationship is and has been over different cultures. It's not just a binary
acceptable/not acceptable difference, but homosexuality has had a different
social role in different societies in a way that is difficult to imagine
today.

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asjw
There's a rule 34 in porn, but also a rule 34 in history: if it happened,
Romans have already done it.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras_(freedman)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras_\(freedman\))

~~~
ImprobableTruth
I've heard that a lot of the crazy stories about Nero were just propaganda.
I'm not certain that this is an example, but it definitely feels like
propaganda.

~~~
wil421
> Nero, covered with skins of wild animals, was let loose from a cage and
> attacked the private parts of men and women bound to stakes

Yikes. Let’s hope they were just stories.

~~~
zozbot234
You could say the same thing about the modern stories of Epstein, Qanon, the
supposed secret basement in that pizza place etc. Maybe it was just
propaganda, or maybe Nero, Caligula and other Roman emperors were a bit
sociopathic to say the least and were drawn to more than just abstract
political power.

~~~
mercer
Are you saying Epstein wasn't in the business of pedophilic exploitation
involving a number of the global'elite', and that his island wasn't a resort
for said activities?

It doesn't seem right to conflate that with Qanon or Pizzagate. It's like
comparing critics of a particular Covid-19 policy to flat-earthers.

~~~
zozbot234
> It doesn't seem right to conflate that with Qanon or Pizzagate. It's like
> comparing critics of a particular Covid-19 policy to flat-earthers.

Yes, but the point is that the two cases can be indistinguishable at a
distance. We'll probably never know what stories about Roman emperors were at
least somewhat factual, and what were just propaganda.

------
wayneftw
Why is this here?

It’s completely off topic for HN.

~~~
adamcharnock
See the guidelines[1] which define on/off topic as:

> On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes
> more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the
> answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're
> evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or
> disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's
> probably off-topic.

This article did gratify my intellectual curiosity, and I don't think I'd see
it on TV news.

[1]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
balladeer
On-topic guideline essentially allows everything, rendering off-topic
guideline moot. Could have been avoided by defining "a good hacker" but that's
missing as well :)

~~~
krapp
>Could have been avoided by defining "a good hacker" but that's missing as
well :)

Given that it's his site, his forum and his rules, I've always assumed
"anything that good hackers would find interesting" loosely correlated to
"anything Paul Graham would find interesting."

~~~
zzzcpan
It's usually a measure of similarity to the mods, not pg, i.e. whatever dang
thinks is interesting goes, if you are not "a good hacker" like dang - too bad
for you. Although I do remember there was a pg article not so long ago that
was so dumb and nonsensical it was flagged off the frontpage only to
forcefully reappear a few hour later.

~~~
krapp
I don't really mind dang making those sorts of editorial decisions, since it's
more or less his job. At least dang seems open to a greater breadth and depth
of subject matter than many people's narrow minded view of what should be
relevant here.

That said, "good hacker" as a qualifier is as frustratingly elitist as it is
maddeningly vague.

~~~
klyrs
My interpretation is that "good" is meant to delineate from "bad". E.g. this
isn't a forum for sploits, warez and script kiddies. Reading how others
interpret this is curious to me, as I joined with zero knowledge of this pg
guy and personally tend to weigh his various opinions on merit.

