
MacBook Pro 16" 2019 Teardown - robin_reala
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+16-Inch+2019+Teardown/128106
======
JohnTHaller
Most important point: Apple fixed the keyboard by ditching the flawed keyboard
used for the past 3 years and returning to the Magic Keyboard scissor switch
design. Comparing the 'new' keyboard to the Magic Keyboard: "side by side,
we're hard pressed to spot any differences. Scissor switches, keycaps...
There's slightly less space surrounding these new keys, and pundits will
celebrate those reconfigured arrow keys—but everything else looks nigh
identical."

~~~
webwielder2
The Magic Keyboard design is not the 2012-2015 MBP keyboard design, it's the
design from their line of external keyboards. iFixit's jokey intro is
misleading in this regard.

~~~
pwthornton
This is correct. The Magic keyboard has been beloved for several years, and it
is not a keyboard that has ever been in a laptop before.

~~~
cassianoleal
Personally, I prefer the MBP2015 keyboard to the Magic Keyboard.

I have been to an Apple Store recently to try out the MBP16's keyboard and
it's good - but not as good as the one I'm typing this on.

I also don't understand the obsession with key stability on the corners. I
_like_ the instability. I use it when I'm touch typing - it gives my fingers a
lot more tactile feedback.

~~~
boardwaalk
Can you really tell if you don’t like the older keyboard more because of
familiarity after a few minutes with the new one? I can’t.

I just got the Magic Keyboard and it’s still growing on me after a few days.

~~~
geerlingguy
I've been using a magic keyboard for the past few years, and any time I type
on the older 2015 MacBook pro's keyboard now, it feels like I'm pressing my
fingers into a mushy sponge.

For me, at least, the Magic Keyboard is the happy medium between the too short
action on the 2016-19 Pro keyboards, and the too deep action on the 2015 and
earlier,

~~~
dognotdog
Interesting, I work on a '14 MBP and one of the new full size magic keyboards,
and while the MBP feels slightly softer, I never noticed any discomfort or
annoyance, and didn't know the '15 had a significantly different keyboard.

------
tolmasky
I went with my gf to take a look at these last night at the Apple store. Her
command key has completely stopped working on her 2018 MacBook that otherwise
works perfectly fine.

It feels clumsily large, especially since we’re coming from MacBook 13s. She
kept asking me if I’d heard any rumors about when new 13s would come out. She
went in pretty determined to get a new machine but decided to wait.

The struggle continues for us 13ers I’m afraid. Not really excited to drop
$3K+ on an even larger form factor I haven’t been excited about for upwards of
5 years (and being forced to upgrade to Catalina) just to fix what is now
universally understood to be a defective keyboard design.

I’m fairly convinced that this whole speaker business was to have something,
_anything_ , to differentiate it from the current models other than fixing the
keyboard, and probably delayed this release. Someone said “we can’t seriously
just ship a new laptop, with the _same CPU_ as the current models, and _just_
fix the keyboards!” It wouldn’t surprise me if the 13s haven’t come out yet
for a similar reason.

~~~
grecy
I recently bought a used 2015 13inch MPB. Extremely happy.

~~~
krisgenre
I bought the same in 2016. Last year the speakers got fried and since few
months back it has started to shut down abruptly. The max time I can use it
now is only around 30 mins :(

~~~
lathiat
if thats on battery just get the battery replaced and you'll be good to go
again

~~~
stefanfisk
Mine was like that even when on the charger until I replaced the battery,
after that it was like new again. Well worth the money!

Another thing to do is opening the bottom an removing as much of the dust
buildup as possible, that shit alone explains a lot of the “my computer gets
slower with age”.

------
alberth
Call me crazy but I must be the only person who enjoys typing on the old
butterfly keyboard.

Yes I was one of those people who originally thought the travel was too small
but after using it for a couple hours I found the low travel was a huge relief
to Carpal Tunnel and I also typed much faster.

Maybe I have the only keyboard that “works” but I love me some butterfly
keyboards.

~~~
guptaneil
I felt the same way until my butterfly keyboard gradually stopped working and
I went back to my old 2014 MBP keyboard, and realized I had developed
Stockholm Syndrome. If you haven't already, try switching back to the old (or
new) scissor keys and see if you still feel the same.

~~~
akvadrako
Agreed - I used the 2017 model for a couple years and no complaints about the
feel, just the non-working keys. But I didn’t realize that my typing had
gotten slower and less precise.

I switched to the X1C7 and will prioritize key travel and response from now
on.

------
ping_pong
I just bought one and have been using it for a couple of days. So far so good.
I still hate the TouchBar because it's completely useless, but the Esc key and
directional keys was enough for me.

I also have a 2018 MBP from work and the keyboard is shit. Within 3 weeks it
was doubletyping and putting random .'s everywhere.

I was days away from buying the top end Vaio and then I heard the news about
the new MBP and decided to go for the MBP instead.

~~~
hbosch
> putting random .'s everywhere.

For anyone else having this problem, the new MBPs ship with the same
autocorrect "feature" that comes on iOS where when you press spacebar twice
(or, I should say, your keyboard _thinks_ you pressed the spacebar twice) it
inserts a period automatically. In addition, newer MBPs automatically
capitalize and autocorrect spelling, like on mobile.

You can disable this. I did, and, I don't think any desktop computer should be
telling me how to type. I don't need help when I have a full keyboard. System
Prefs > Keyboard > Text.

~~~
netsharc
> I don't think any desktop computer should be telling me how to type.

I agree.. seems like Apple derped there. The auto-correct was because typing
on a smartphone is a lot harder, but some genius must've thought "Hey, why
don't we use this software on our desktops too?". Also holding down a hardware
key to get to accented characters, oh fuck, how is that ergonomic?

~~~
bodyfour
> Also holding down a hardware key to get to accented characters, oh fuck, how
> is that ergonomic?

I think it's a good addition for when you _very_ occasionally need to type a
particular accented character, since you can visually see the options. Of
course if you are going to type it a lot you're better off learning the Option
key combo.

For instance I would have to look up how to directly type "ł" since I rarely
need to type a Polish name... but I can get it in 1 second by holding down
"l". Very handy!

~~~
adiabatty
> For instance I would have to look up how to directly type "ł" since I rarely
> need to type a Polish name... but I can get it in 1 second by holding down
> "l". Very handy!

What's more, you can't even type ł on the standard Apple layout. Sure, you
could use the Apple Extended keyboard layout that handles more characters than
what's used in Western Europe, but you'll lose ≈ (irritatingly, the Extended
layout isn't a strict superset of the standard layout). I type ≈ more often
than I type ł or ć or ō, so the hold-key behavior is a handy addition.

------
ksec
For those who are not in a hurry to upgrade, ( If you are on 2015 MBP ), the
next upgrade which should be soon, will get you WiFi 6 and Icelake, with 20%+
IPC and hopefully Apple will throw in 10 Core Config in as well.

I kind of felt Apple rushed as the problem with Keyboard were big enough and
Apple had to release something to calm the market, not to mention Intel 10nm
Icelake is late as usual.

And of all the thing Apple backtrack, I really wish they bring back AirPort
Extreme.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
_For those who are not in a hurry to upgrade_

There is always something new just around the corner.

~~~
ksec
>There is always something new just around the corner.

True, but something new isn't always something better, and isn't always worth
waiting for. Aka 2016 - 2019 MBP 15". And in the above cases, I consider
Icelake IPC and Security improvement along with WiFI 6 to be quite a
significant upgrade, not the same could be said for the past 3 update of
MacBook Pro.

~~~
aloer
But is this something you would’ve known when they were released? Looking back
it’s quite easy to know which upgrade was worth waiting for. What if intel
can’t deliver next year?

For me it’s also less about what next upgrade might bring but also what next
upgrade does to the resale price. I’m sure those offloading a 15” 2018 will
feel the price drop now.

I have a 13” 2018 and I am seriously considering replacing with the maxed out
16” with 2tb.

But the struggle is real, this is essentially a first gen device despite the
somewhat small design changes. What if they release a new version in half a
year? Definitely not an easy decision for a laptop that costs 5k€

~~~
ksec
>What if intel can’t deliver next year?

Agree as well, something that was in mind but didn't wrote it out in my last
reply. There was of course the assumption Intel execute, which isn't something
Apple can control.

At least Intel has shipped its Icelake in extremely small quantities. I
actually rather hope Intel do miss their deadline so Apple has an excuses to
switch to AMD or ARM.

------
dfabulich
Wait, so are individual keys repairable, or not?

This ifixit article says, "Once again, the keyboard assembly is riveted down.
Though the switches are likely less vulnerable to crumbly assailants, the
keyboard itself isn't any more repairable than the Butterfly boards."

That directly contradicts statements from Apple to The Verge.
[https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/13/20962380/apples-16-inch-...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/13/20962380/apples-16-inch-
macbook-pro-keyboard-screen-speakers-processor)

"Apple says that it has done extra work to stabilize the keycaps, made them
slightly smaller so there’s more space between the keys, and that if a key
breaks you can just replace that one key without taking apart the whole
laptop."

This seems like a strange thing for Apple to lie about. What's the real truth
here, I wonder?

EDIT: It seems that ifixit is just wrong about this, and the keyboard is at
least somewhat more repairable than the butterfly model. The keycaps are
replaceable (allowing you to spray compressed air directly onto debris) _and_
the white part of the switch is replaceable.

~~~
LeoPanthera
The keycaps are replacable but the keyswitches are not.

I don't know of any Apple laptop that ever had replacable keyswitches.

~~~
jmull
It looks like the white piece beneath the keycap (I guess that's the "scissor
mechanism") is replaceable too.

~~~
ralfd
Apple statement wouldn't make sense otherwise. The point of failure is the
scissor mechanism and I never heard of a key cap breaking.

------
oceliker
> A beloved old feature returns to the MacBook Pro, and it starts with M-a-g.

Way to play with my heart, iFixit.

~~~
Rapzid
Soo, I take it magsafe is not back?

~~~
saagarjha
Nope, still USB-C :(

~~~
lispm
I bought a Magsafe-like USB-C cable...

~~~
cerberusss
That's quite interesting, which one did you get? What are your impressions so
far? And can it be used for data?

~~~
djaychela
I bought an add-on USB-C 'magsafe' adapter when I bought my 2017 MBP 13" [1].
I had planned to leave the one bit in the laptop, and use it like a magsafe,
but it didn't work out well - it wasn't as magnetic or as positive in location
as a real magsafe (it tended to fold 'sideways' too easily), and in the end I
just stopped using it because it became more of a pain than the real risk of
it getting dragged off a table (the only location I used to use it was at my
girlfriend's house in the kitchen and I took to just taking the cable out when
I walked away to save the kids having a nightmare).

[1] - [https://snapnator.com/](https://snapnator.com/)

~~~
prawnsalad
Snapnator actually delivered for you? I know several people including myself
that had bought one of these things and never had them delivered, then never
had any support requests answered. I had put them down to a large scam.

------
dzhiurgis
>The X-rays make it even angrier! Run away! Luckily our friends at Creative
Electron are taking all the risk here—we'll resume disassembly after things
calm down.

Not sure what is the allusion to here, but anyone else noticed static
discharge you get after airport xray scans your macbook?

~~~
Someone1234
I believe that is caused by the rubber conveyor belt carrying the laptop
through in a nylon bag rather than the x-ray itself. You can get the same
effect from other non-x-ray conveyor belts at the airport.

------
BuildTheRobots
This is probably a stupid question, but why have they got two different
flavours of RAM?

* 16x Micron MT40A1G8SA-075 8 Gb DDR4 SDRAM (16 GB total)

* 4x Samsung K4Z80325BC-HC14 8 Gb GDDR6 RAM (4 GB total)

~~~
jmull
I think the GDDR6 is for the GPU

~~~
tecleandor
Yep. GDDR stands for Graphics DDR.

------
rconti
I don't get their dust-proofing membrane comment:

> News flash: there's not even a dust-proofing membrane on these new switches.
> We're inclined to take this as a very good sign. (It means we can finally
> eat Doritos during teardowns again.)

That sounds counter-intuitive. Can someone explain?

~~~
zabuni
They don't have the membrane because they don't need it. With the old
keyboards, any spec of dust would cause them to stick. That means these are
back to the original, non-fragile keyboards with good travel.

------
guardian5x
The Surface Laptop 3 scored a 5 at least, which was a big improvement over
previous generations. I wish Apple would try to improve repairability as well.

~~~
Sangeppato
While this is true, the battery (which is likely the only component most
people will need/want to replace) is still glued to the case, the RAM is
soldered and I'm not sure Microsoft will provide a replacement keyboard to you
for a decent price.

I mean, I was very happy about the Laptop 3 repairability, but if the MBP is
1/10, then 5/10 looks a bit too much to me.

------
pckls
I'm very patiently waiting for modular components. Apple's hardware is
certainly beautiful but IMO not worth the upfront premium PLUS the additional
premium for repairs.

From a hardware eng perspective, is there a clear advantage for hardwiring
components?

~~~
saagarjha
> From a hardware eng perspective, is there a clear advantage for hardwiring
> components?

Yeah: it saves space and reduces complexity. A more modular MacBook would
almost certainly be missing features or be bigger/thicker.

------
chmaynard
A while back, I used to think hard about whether to purchase AppleCare to
extend the warranty on a new MacBook Pro. Now, it's a no-brainer. Believe me,
I know from hard experience that you won't regret it.

~~~
akvadrako
Well I bought AppleCare because of the keyboard and I regret it. They refused
to fix the nonworking keys because of a 1mm scratch on the back of the top
case, saying it voided the warranty.

So just a few hundred additional bucks wasted.

~~~
WA
I had the keyboard of my MBP 2017 replaced for free. Also, the display died
roughly at the same time. At first, I thought it was a problem of the flex
cable, but later I discovered a small crack. The Apple Store replaced the
entire display for free, what is usually a $800 repair. I guess it depends a
lot on the store, the country, maybe even the person you talk to.

------
Basketb926
Repairability 1/10

~~~
JBiserkov
I don't know why you're being downvoted. Maybe for spoiling the end result?
Haha.

Having the lowest repairability possible should not be acceptable for such a
high-end machine.

Microsoft Surface Laptop 3 got 5/10 (23 October 2019)

[https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3+(...](https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3+\(15-inch\)+Teardown/127277)

~~~
htk
Why shouldn’t it be acceptable? I for one accept to trade repairability for
less footprint/weight. And I also admire my ThinkPad T420 that I thoroughly
hacked.

Let the market decide what it wants. There’s space for all kinds os laptops
and gadgets.

~~~
jraph
In a world where sourcing materials and building computer parts that cannot be
recycled has such a high environmental and societal cost, no, I can't find any
way of seeing this as acceptable.

We should not let the market and consumers preference decide on this. We need
informed, resonnable and thoughful decisions. If it leads to laptops a bit
more heavy and thick but less wasteful, so be it. Convenience cannot be
demanded at any cost. Anyway, repairable is convenient.

~~~
esmi
You can’t dump a laptop in a blue bin but you can recycle it. You can also
resell or get a trade-in credit from Apple.

[https://www.apple.com/recycling/nationalservices/](https://www.apple.com/recycling/nationalservices/)

~~~
jraph
Isn't this bullshit?

Apple Forces Recyclers to Shred All iPhones and MacBooks -
[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-
ip...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphones-
macbooks)

Anyway, the best waste is the one that does not exist, recycling should be
last resort since it's often far from perfect and costly too. So we should
reduce the amount of things we need to recycle in the first place. As for
computer parts, I cannot see how it can be efficient.

Reusing working stuff is good though, obviously.

~~~
esmi
The article is from 2017 and references data from 2016 and 2012. In 2018 Apple
announced it stepped up its recycling efforts but I don’t know how things have
changed and I haven’t read the full environmental report.

Apple forces recyclers to shred because they determined those devices are not
fit for resale and they don’t want recyclers reselling them, like they said
they would in the article. This happens to 1/3 of trade-ins, see link below.

[https://www.apple.com/environment/](https://www.apple.com/environment/)

~~~
jraph
You are implying that an article that is only two years old is too old,
precising that you don't know if things have changed (thank you for your
honesty by the way).

Apple forces recyclers to shred perfectly good hardware indiscriminately,
against their will, so it does not hurt Apple's bottom line. When you are the
richest company in the world, surely you can do better. There is no excuse.

I cannot take Apple's own 2 MB, 55 request loading marketing material about
environment as a reliable source.

~~~
esmi
> You are implying that an article that is only two years old is too old,

No. I’m stating that policy changed after this article was published, who
knows maybe it was in response to this article, so the facts may have changed.
The age of the article is not relevant I was just showing the timeline.

> Apple forces recyclers to shred perfectly good hardware indiscriminately

Says the recyclers. Apple says they are not perfectly good hardware, otherwise
they would have refurbished it themselves. I also believe Apple maximizes
profit which is why I believe if it was reliably repairable, they would have
done it. A refurbishment unit has to fetch more than a recycled unit.

~~~
jraph
>> You are implying that an article that is only two years old is too old,

> No. I’m stating that policy changed after this article was published, who
> knows maybe it was in response to this article, so the facts may have
> changed

Ok, that was a more charitable and likely interpretation of your message. A
bit of bad faith unfortunately slipped in my last comment. Sorry for that.

------
redm
I switched from a pair of Mac Pro's to a 15" Macbook Pro last year. The 15"
was the first laptop to support quad 4k displays (what I was using with my Mac
Pro). The laptop has been fantastic, with the exception of cooling. The
cooling is bad enough that I keep it (when it's hooked up to my quad 4k
displays) upside down, with 2 plastic cups, to keep it from overheating.

I'm mostly interested in the enhanced cooling. If it's really that much
better, it may be time to upgrade. Has anyone had similar experiences?

~~~
azimuth11
Yes. Everyone in my office complains about it.

------
Havoc
Those half sized up/down cursor keys - does nobody within Apple use
spreadsheets?

I get that it's not their primary audience but surely of all the keys you'd
want to mini-fy cursor would be one of the last?

~~~
saagarjha
I _really_ like the inverted-T arrangement. I have literally held off on
buying a new Mac until they went back to that layout, since it lets me
position my fingers on the keys better.

~~~
mjhagen
Yeah same here, I tried using keyboards with full-size left right arrow keys
and I don't know why but I found that to be one of the hardest things to
adjust to. And I type on lots of different keyboards.

------
mscasts
I love how Apple claim to care so much about the environment and then goes on
to create basically the most unfixable pieces of hardware possible.

Great job, really awesome for the environment Apple.

~~~
simonh
Only a tiny percentage of laptops are ever upgraded. If making the device
upgradable and accessible adds the same percentage in materials then it's
pretty much a wash.

Also Apple devices on average have much longer service lives than devices from
most other manufacturers. On average they stay usable longer, and even when
they are replaced they're more likely to be handed on and keep in use even
without upgradability. This is why they retain more of their second hand
value. That factor alone is dramatically more significant from a whole
lifecycle impact point of view.

~~~
brailsafe
I feel like much of these claims are only in the past. I used my 2009 Macbook
for 5 or so years, and it only lasted that long because I was able to upgrade
it. It came with a comical 2GB of ram, and that would have been a trash—as in
worthless to me—if it couldn't be upgraded. I was able to sell it, only
because they're desirable, and they used to be more reliable. The latter
quality is not so evident any more. Many naive customers are duped into buying
the bottom of the line MBP or Air, and then are dumbfounded when their thing
runs out of resources. I blame apple for making less reliable products for
higher margins and offering their customers less agency over their devices.
Their marketing pitch is usually that you should have to know the details, but
you do, because they're trying to screw you. The people with money to blow I'm
not so concerned about, it's more the person who buys a 13" MBP for 2k that
has 4GB of ram and 128gb ssd, and can't ever upgrade the thing.

~~~
simonh
>I feel like much of these claims are only in the past.

It's not actually possible to buy a new Mac with less than 8GB RAM these days,
and that seems likely to be plenty for a typical user for the lifetime of a
machine bought today. 128 GB SSD is a bit tight, but flash drives are cheap. I
see it the opposite way, in the past minimum Mac specs always seemed miserly,
but nowadays they're pretty capable.

~~~
brailsafe
Now 8Gb is a decent baseline, but it took a very long time to get there for a
very expensive computer.

------
rahuldottech
So no upgradable RAM, no upgradable storage. If either stops functioning, you
have to change the entire logic board (including the CPU and GPU? I'm not
sure). Wow this is a crappy design. But expected, since this is Apple that
we're talking about.

~~~
mumblemumble
What's interesting about this perception is that PC vendors who do the same
things don't catch flak. Presumably because there are still options for PC
that are at least theoretically repairable and built to last.

I wonder what would happen in a hypothetical world where there were pro and
non-Pro Apple laptops, but the only real difference between them were that the
Pro laptops had replaceable parts, and were however much
larger/heavier/pricier they need to be to make that happen, while the non-Pro
ones are all soldered and riveted together.

My guess is that the ones that are soldered together vastly outsell the pro
line because that's what most _Apple_ consumers want. And then economies of
scale kick in until everyone's just mad that Apple is charging $500 "tax" just
to be able to replace the hard drive and upgrade the RAM.

~~~
jotm
That's because Apple is the only hardware provider for Mac OS X. If you just
want Windows or Linux, you have a lot of choices. If you want OS X, there's no
choice but to put up with whatever hardware Apple gives you.

~~~
dkonofalski
That's not entirely true with Hackintoshes being a thing now.

~~~
jotm
That's only for exalted characters with nice hats and beards.

If you want to run MacOSX legally without risking a lawsuit from Apple (they
even went after a repair shop, FFS), you must use their hardware, as per the
license agreement.

~~~
dkonofalski
>they even went after a repair shop, FFS

They went after the repair shop for copyright infringement which the shop was
guilty of. That's not the same thing at all.

------
thinkloop
Why doesn't apple make the touchbar out of keys? The keys could be flat on top
and seamlessly adjacent to one another to make a "bar", for sliders and such.
But pressable like regular keys to make great buttons (most common use-case).
I feel like that is inventable.

~~~
saagarjha
Like the Chromebook Pixel? I don't think sliding on that would work very well,
since you'd end up pressing the keys…

~~~
lonelappde
It has a touchbar?!

------
leoh
I bought a MBP 15" around the time of the fall keynote because the 16" was not
announced. Does anyone know how I can replace it with a 16"? The keyboard
really is driving me nuts.

------
saagarjha
> Stacked atop its slightly-older sibling (the 15-inch 2019 model), the new
> MacBook Pro has some noticeably larger exhaust holes.

They look quite similar to the vents found in the Early 2015 Macbook Pro!

------
rhardih
Would have hoped a note on the screen cable for this one. Wasn't a
breaking/failing ribbon cable the biggest problem after the keyboard for that
last couple of years models?

~~~
JohnTHaller
The stage light flaw. Happened because Apple made the cable between the
mainboard and the display panel in too short. Excacerbated because Apple
soldered the cable to the display panel turning a $6 repair into a $600
repair.

Rossman's video from January details the stupidity:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzjoELvrkYo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzjoELvrkYo)

------
arminiusreturns
Does anybody know the current state of installing linux on one? Doe the latest
kernel fixes to SPI make things like the keyboard work now?

------
_bxg1
iFixit can't cover an Apple device without injecting just a bit of snark and
passive-aggression into it. People who buy these things know what they're
getting. Score it how you want to, but spare me the sermon.

~~~
arrrg
iFixit are not even pretending to be a neutral party here. They have a clear
agenda and a clear viewpoint and that is very much the point. And there is
nothing wrong with that.

While I agree with them in broad strokes I also disagree on some points but
that’s not the end of the world. We just disagree and that’s alright.

~~~
_bxg1
They don't really present themselves as a political organization, just a
business that tells you _how_ to perform whatever operations you _can_ perform
on a given device and what those operations are, and sells you tools for doing
so. They can tell you that you can't replace a lot of things on your MacBook
without implying that they think it's every company's responsibility to make
their devices apocalypse-proof.

------
rconti
How long 'till we can get this keyboard in a 13"?

~~~
saagarjha
Rumor is early next year: [https://www.macrumors.com/2019/11/18/13-inch-
macbook-pro-sci...](https://www.macrumors.com/2019/11/18/13-inch-macbook-pro-
scissor-keyboard-2020/)

------
dijit
I can't find any information on the SSD flash chips; does anyone have any info
on if they're MLC or 3D Nand? That would impact the wear of the drives
considerably.

~~~
asciident
Which ones last longer?

~~~
dijit
MLC would last longer than 3D NAND, SLC would last significantly longer than
both; but nobody is shipping SLC for at least 5 years now it seems :(

~~~
wtallis
Nobody is manufacturing planar NAND flash memory in high volume or in die
sizes large enough to fit multiple TBs of flash into a notebook. The only
viable options currently being manufactured are all 3D NAND. The vast majority
of this (and what is used by almost all SSDs across all market segments) is 3D
TLC NAND flash memory—TLC meaning it stores 3 bits per physical memory cell.
MLC would typically refer to storing two bits per cell, SLC means one bit per
cell, and QLC means four bits per cell.

There is _no_ reason to prefer MLC these days. TLC has plenty of write
endurance for client/consumer usage. MLC offers theoretical advantages in
performance and endurance, but these are absolutely not worth the higher cost
that comes from lower density. (And that's comparing 3D MLC against 3D TLC;
high-density planar MLC loses against 3D TLC on all counts.) There _is_ a
niche market for SLC NAND in high-performance server applications that need
the lowest possible latency from their SSDs, and Samsung and Toshiba are
currently manufacturing memory to suit this use case. But it again has density
too low for multi-TB SSDs to fit into a laptop.

------
v3nn
Looks like the mobo came from space invaders.

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Spacemolte
I like my 13 inch retina 2013 model, and i guess i will be holding on to that
as long as possible.

------
w1nst0nsm1th
Basically a throw-away computer.

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Mobius01
I just replaced the keyboard on a ThinkPad T440p, and it didn’t seem to add a
significant bulk to the machine’s profile. It took me 2 minutes flat.

~~~
smilekzs
+1. The serviceability of ThinkPads had always been a great (if not hidden)
feature, almost allowing Ship-of-Theseus-ish rolling upgrades like a desktop.
Even though the build quality has generally declined since the T410 era, this
at least has been preserved (I have a company-issued P50 and it's still a few
screws away from changing RAM and SSD).

~~~
berbec
I replaced the trackpad on an x240 and it took me 2 hours and a few broken
spudgers. I would have been able to swap everything else out first, as the
touchpad was buried under motherboard, keyboard, hard drives etc.

~~~
dfox
That is essentially the feature of the “good” thinkpads. You can replace
almost anything, but the whole thing is built in this weird upside-down way
and replacing anything that you really want to replace means that you have to
take the whole thing almost completely apart. On the other hand if you read
the official procedure for that and take inspiration from that, the only tool
you really need to take it completely apart and assemble back is literally an
cheapest swiss army knife which includes philips screwdriver.

------
jonny383
Nice edit without the edit note. 0/10.

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Tepix
It‘s not a very professional device if you can‘t upgrade the storage and the
memory.

The Mac Pro will feature modular SSDs (and they aren‘t even super fast). I
wonder if Apple will use something proprietary or standard M.2 NVMe modules.
They probably can‘t offer PCIe 4.0 slots since they‘re using Intel which is
trailing behind.

~~~
clay_the_ripper
Im so tired of these comments on HN. Some people want a laptop they can pull
apart and fix themselves. Those people should buy something else. when I was
younger and had more time than money, I used to upgrade RAM and the SSD
myself. Then I started making money. Then it became seriously dumb to spend 2
hours doing all that nonsense when I can just pay upfront to get a maxed out
RAM and Hard drive. Can’t afford it? Then buy something else! I honestly don’t
underatand this constant complaining about repairing laptops yourselves. What
a waste of time! Leave it to the Apple store techs to do it for you.

~~~
mopsi
> Then it became seriously dumb to spend 2 hours

It doesn't have to be 2 hours. It doesn't have to be more than 5-10 minutes.

> I can just pay upfront to get a maxed out RAM and Hard drive.

Yes, but you can't pay upfront and get a SSD that will be launched in 2023.
You'll be forever stuck with whatever tech was available at the time of
purchase.

> I honestly don’t underatand this constant complaining about repairing
> laptops yourselves. What a waste of time! Leave it to the Apple store techs
> to do it for you.

Apple can't repair them either, the design is unrepairable, that's why the
failing keyboards were such a fuck-up. They had to throw away the whole top
half of the chassis because keyboard was riveted to it. It's as anti-consumer
and anti-environment as it gets. Given the growing electronic waste problem, I
expect such practices to be outlawed sooner or later, and I'm somewhat
surprised that Apple isn't already positioning itself as leader in long-
lasting products that extract maximum value from natural resources put into
them. Repairability and upgradability are cornerstones of environmentally
responsible business, but Apple seems to be heading in the opposite direction.

~~~
wtallis
> Yes, but you can't pay upfront and get a SSD that will be launched in 2023.
> You'll be forever stuck with whatever tech was available at the time of
> purchase.

Given that the SSDs you can buy right now outstrip the IO bandwidth your
laptop CPU provides, the only real benefit that upgrading to future SSDs could
provide would be a better price per GB. If you're seriously concerned about
wanting more storage a few years down the road, you probably also want to buy
a machine now and _immediately_ upgrade it with aftermarket storage.

------
PhasmaFelis
Apple rolling back the keyboard design and lack of Escape key reminds me of
the satirical "Upgrade to Windows 7 (from Windows 8)" article from six or
seven years ago, joyfully describing how Windows was back on track after 7
fixed most of 8's problems.

------
meerita
I dropped a beer in my 2017 model, and i screwed up all the spacebar, and the
command and option keys in one side. They were really hard to use until some
days ago they started working. The prior models were better for maintenance
and resistant to these abuses with liquids.

------
pcr910303
As I have already said in
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21524049](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21524049):

> I hate the wobbly feeling that the scissor mechanism produces. Apple didn't
> need to return to the scissor mechanism, it should have reiterated the
> design. I'm very disappointed that Apple just gave up & used the safe way of
> regressing back.

> It feels like Apple is losing the spirit of doing things itself, whether
> other people dislikes it. Apple is more and more becoming a usual company
> that just does what consumers demands. And I'm sad with that.

~~~
EpicEng
In this case, consumers were demanding a keyboard that... ya know, works for
more than six months. Maybe they did try to iterate, but the fundamental
design was just flawed. Who knows? Maybe they'll change it again down the
road, but you only have so long between revs, and they had a design which
works in their back pocket.

