
MIT Should Not Be Supporting the Saud Monarchy - stablemap
http://web.mit.edu/fnl/volume/304/editorial.html
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anilshanbhag
Change cannot happen overnight, it is a gradual process. Saudi has improved:
two major improvements - woman being allowed to drive and opening of the first
cinema in 35 years ! I expect more changes to happen over time.

The situation in Yemen is bad. However it is not totally one-sided pain
inflicted by Saudi Arabia as portrayed in the article. The Houthis are after
all well armed militants who were/are trying to overthrow the Yemen
government.

Some people at MIT have hardline stances which should not be mistaken to be
the institute's opinion or the majority opinion. A year ago there was a
movement by some to have MIT divest from oil/gas-related companies which
failed.

~~~
nafizh
That is precisely the kind of reaction Bin Salman is banking on. By taking
steps that appeal to western liberals, but in reality, have very little
societal consequences in the context of Saudi, he is putting a blanket cover
on the massive human rights abuse/arbitrary detentions in Saudi, and the war
crimes in Yemen.

Houthis being armed militant does not excuse the blockade of essential
supplies that is leading to the death of thousands of children.

~~~
dogma1138
The problem is that there is no organic better alternative to replace them.

Yemen is a complicated situation with a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and
Iran neither of them are particularly bastions of human rights or values.

Unlike Iraq there isn’t a substantial enough Shi’a population in Saudi Arabia
to serve as an Iranian proxy to fill the void.

The other two major Sunni powers in the region are AQAP and ISIS both of them
are far worse than the Saud family could and would ever be.

Pure and absolute moral objectivism is just as bad as pure moral relativism.

While you can assert that we should never support such regimes, let them fall
or even actively push for a regime change on pure moral grounds you aren’t the
one that needs to deal with the fallout on the ground for years and decades to
come.

Regardless of how bad the situation in Saudi Arabia is now it can always get
worse, much worse and I don’t think that you should advocate for a social
experiment you wont be willing to participate in.

~~~
nafizh
> 'The other two major Sunni powers in the region are AQAP and ISIS both of
> them are far worse than the Saud family could and would ever be.'

The world's majority Muslims are Sunni, does that make AQAP and ISIS the
mainstream? Absolutely not. They have been used as a red-herring before (not
that I am saying it is something that can be ignored) for oppressive regimes
to continue (e.g. Egypt, Syria), as they are nowhere near powerful enough as
they are made up to be. That is precisely the reason they rely on individuals
to attack civilians at western countries. Also, no one is calling for a regime
change, that is what US and its allies do unless they don't like the person in
charge. In this case, they like Bin Salman.

~~~
dogma1138
No one said that ISIS and AQAP are the majority, the world’s Muslim majority
doesn’t even live in the Arabian peninsula they are however 2 of the most
powerful Sunni groups in the region with a very large support base in Saudi
Arabia and one of them will take over if you get rid of the royal family.

It’s not about liking or not liking the person in charge it’s about being able
to do something about it without causing even more mess.

The entire region is royally fucked with the exception of one country and it’s
not just the US (NATO) and Russia (USSR), not to mention colonialism to blame.

Heck look at the election results in Lebanon this weekend, they are perfectly
capable of fucking themselves over without any US intervention.

P.S. If your measure of power is ones ability to attack the US at home then by
that definition alone AQAP and ISIS are the most powerful entities in the
region as no one else has any logistical capabilities to project their force
outside of their geographical sphere of influence.

In a hypothetical scenario possibly the only one in the region that could do
that currently is Israel if they modify their satellite launch vehicle into an
ICBM and even It might not have the range to hit the continental United States
with any payload.

The Iranians are probably half a decade away from a similar capability.

They might be able to use the stronghold they established trhgouh Hezbollah in
South America but that wouldn’t be any different from the asymmetrical warfare
AQAP and ISIS are capable of implementing just with an IRGC flare to it.

No one in the region has military bases within striking range of the US,no one
has an aircraft carrier, no one has the logistical capabilities to wage even a
ground war further than a few 100’s miles from their borders.

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ilamont
The institute should take a hard look at other forms of support for autocratic
regimes. Seven or 8 years ago it happily took $300 million to set up a
"Silicon Valley" run by the Russian government, although it has since
experienced difficulties keeping faculty engaged (1) and more recently has
"not much to show for it aside from a distant, windswept science park."

1\. [https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/09/15/another-foreign-
faculty...](https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/09/15/another-foreign-faculty-
member-leaves-russia-s-self-styled-silicon-valley-graduate-school)

2\. [https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/09/chill-out-russias-
skolkovo...](https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/09/chill-out-russias-skolkovo-
project-attempts-a-re-boot-with-a-new-venture-fund/)

~~~
euyyn
How does that _support_ Russian's government exactly?

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wavefunction
$750,000 seems cheap for all that access to faculty and IP

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crb002
And let's not forget the beheadings of "white ISIS".
[https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=saudi+beheadings](https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=saudi+beheadings)

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jasim
1) Why is the Saud family waging a war on Yemen? 2) In case the Saud monarchy
falls abruptly, what could happen in the power vacuum, domestically and for
the middle-east in general? 3) The Saud family is understood to be more
liberal than the general Saudi population and MBS had to supposedly overcome
powerful conservatives to start with the (social) liberalization agenda. How
true is this, and what are the implications if MBS is deposed?

~~~
Zaheer
All of these questions can be answered with some research online.

1) Yemen is a result of Saudi-Iran Proxy war:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/un-probe-details-
fallou...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/un-probe-details-fallout-of-
proxy-war-in-yemen-between-saudi-coalition-and-
iran-/2018/01/11/3e3f9302-f644-11e7-9af7-a50bc3300042_story.html)

2) There will surely be challenging times but every country that had liberated
itself from monarchy has gone through similar struggles.

3) >The Saud family is understood to be more liberal than the general Saudi
population I don't have an answer on this but what is well known is that the
Saud family partnered with Wahab family to push Wahabbism, since the start of
Saudia Arabia. This alliance of faith & state was done to control the people
similar to many times in history when faith has been hijacked to recruit
supporters.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism)

~~~
jasim
Granted we're talking about nations and their peoples and their histories and
they are always long, deep, and tangled up and there are no simple truths. I'm
aware of the origins of Wahabism through The Arabs (Eugene Rogan). I was
looking for individual perspectives than what's easily available online. I've
also tried reading up on the animosity between Iran and Saudi, and couldn't
find any straight answer.

~~~
cuckcuckspruce
Iran is primarily Shi'a and Saudi Arabia is primarily Sunni.

~~~
mdahlstrand
...which didn't use to be a reason for war. I recommend watching Adam Curtis'
Bitter Lake. The west has more involvement in shia/sunni split and hate than
it'd like to admit.

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squozzer
I think before MIT or anyone else decides to support or oppose any regime,
they should ask themselves, "What are the reasonable alternatives?"

But first, an aside - I wish I could remember the name of the YouTube video
that described the UK as a theocracy - because the Queen is also the "pope" of
the Church of England.

A lot of people - MIT and myself included - fall into the trap of comparing
places like Saudi to a theoretical perfect state which we'll call Utopia. The
pitfalls of such comparisons I leave as an exercise to the reader.

But let's talk about MIT's overall contribution to the advancement of human
rights. How many of their grads have gone on to work for the NSA? How many of
their Chinese students now find employ with the Chinese government? How many
government contracts for intrusive surveillance or weapons of mass destruction
has MIT taken over the years?

Answer: Classified. But probably a lot.

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austincheney
That short article is heavy on opinion and light on substance. It leaves me
with the sensation of _social justice warrior_.

~~~
tathougies
What exactly is wrong with fighting for social justice? If you’re going to
resort to name calling at least choose a label that’s actually bad

~~~
UnpossibleJim
The problem with it, is that it lacks any and all due process. It's the same
process that leads to lynch mobs and witch hunts. Its other names are mob
rule, mob justice and vigilantism.

~~~
iron0013
Wasn't aware that "SJWs" were hanging people from trees and burning them at
the stake, thanks for the information

~~~
UnpossibleJim
Antifa... I think that's how it's spelled, anyways. Short for Anti-Fascist. A
radical extension of the "SJW" logic, if you will. Any ideology, taken to the
extreme, is ridiculous.

~~~
iron0013
I wasn't aware that antifa was hanging people from trees and burning them at
the stake. I myself am anti-fascist, and most people I know are also against
fascism--aren't you?

However, anyone can easily find many, many, many examples of right-wing
extremists in the United States hanging, burning, and committing other
atrocities. Hm, weird, it's almost as if both sides are not equivalent, like
one is much worse than the other...

~~~
UnpossibleJim
Being purposefully obtuse is, as always, charming. I'm sure you liven up any
debate and bring new information to light. Thanks so much for helping me see
that I was wasting my time with this conversation..... I guess you win?

~~~
iron0013
Please don't troll and name-call, we all come to this forum for open and
productive debate.

