
Why I don't want stuff - wallflower
https://sivers.org/gifts
======
0xffff2
I can appreciate the sentiment, but I actually like _doing_ things. Don't get
me wrong, I probably spend much more time than most in front of my computer,
but even so.

I'm a photographer -> Two bags full of camera gear, tripod...

I'm a hiker/backpacker -> Backpack, tent, sleeping bag, hiking boots...

I'm a cyclist -> Bike, helmet, gloves, pump...

I'm a computer engineer -> Solder station, wire cutters, crimping tools...

I'm a DIYer -> Saws, hammers, screwdrivers...

I would love to have less stuff, but the amount of myself that I would have to
strip away for it to make sense is mind boggling to me. I go looking to get
rid of stuff all the time, but even though I have a lot of things, I _use_ all
of them. I truly can't wrap my head around the idea of living a fulfilling
life with only a laptop and whatever furnishings came with my apartment.

~~~
nostromo
I wish there was a startup in this space.

I have so much house maintenance stuff. For example, I only really need a
ladder once a year. But I keep it around forever because when you need a
ladder, _you need a ladder_.

I would love to not have to store and maintain all this stuff and to just
request it on demand. Can someone solve that for me?

I'm embarrassed to admit that sometimes it's easier for me to just buy a new
tool than to find the right one at the bottom of a tool box somewhere. It
seems so wasteful...

Same goes for all my hobby stuff too. (I too have a huge bag of mountain
climbing gear that gets used only twice a year.)

~~~
danans
In my neighborhood we all borrow each others gear, whether it's home
improvement stuff, or occasionally used outdoor sports gear. Any startup in
this space would have to establish the "trust" feature of a sharing community,
which is a feature that a friendly neighborhood has built-in.

You might be on to something if you find an easy way for people to publish
their inventory of stuff to a trusted group of neighbors, maybe with a
smartphone app to take pics of the gear? That way you leverage the trust that
already exists, and just make the publishing and discovery process easier.

We use Nextdoor and our street's email mailing list for this all the time.

EDIT: Nextdoor and email lists only provide the in-group communication
solution, not the inventory solution. It would be interesting to see an
inventory solution that worked with a variety of communication services.

~~~
ycmbntrthrwaway
Instead of trust, it may be possible to rent stuff in usual way by leaving a
deposit and paying per hour for using someone else's tool.

~~~
eitally
And there are plenty of companies all over the world who operate profitably
renting tools & equipment to homeowners.

~~~
Grishnakh
Yeah, and the stuff they rent is probably mostly old junk and beat to hell
because renters don't take care of stuff. It's probably a lot cheaper to just
go to Harbor Freight and buy a tool there than to rent something.

~~~
jessaustin
This really varies. On numerous occasions, I've gone to the rental place,
taken one look at the machine, and then immediately left said rental place.
Once, I had to wait for the dude to take the brand-new backpack leaf blower
out of the box and pour in the first bottle of oil. I had no problem waiting
that time. It's always a good idea to have the dude start the motor before you
load up.

Harbor Freight is great for hand tools you'll use occasionally, or power tools
you'll use rarely. There's a reason people who use those tools for a living
shop elsewhere.

~~~
Grishnakh
The last mechanic I talked to said Snap-On tools had become overpriced junk,
and Harbor Freight tools were a much better value. This is for hand tools,
mind you. All the hand tools I've gotten from HF in the past few years have
been excellent, better than anything I ever got from Craftsman (except torque
wrenches; I haven't tried HF's, and my old Craftsman torque wrenches are
excellent).

Yeah, if I were a professional, I wouldn't use HF power tools either. But
we're talking about DIYers here, not pros. And even good-quality name-brand
tools from Lowe's/HD are a better value than renting.

The only place I can see where renting a tool makes sense is for something
pretty large, that costs at least $500. For instance, a ditch digger is
something I would rent, not buy: it's big, needs maintenance, and probably
costs several thousand dollars new. And it's not something I'd need to use
much, probably only once. But power tool that costs $80? Just buy it. I'll
come out way ahead buying it, using it, and then reselling it on Craigslist
than renting it.

~~~
jessaustin
I've never used a Snap-On tool; that always seemed like a scam. I have an HF
torque wrench that's got to be 10yo by now. It still works, but I don't really
ask much of it. Bicycle stuff, usually, with an occasional top-mounted oil
filter on a diesel engine (the latter only because everything is plastic now,
and one wants neither to break something nor to have oil dripping all over; in
the days of steel I would have just gripped a short wrench halfway off the
axis and pulled hard). If I were rebuilding transmissions I'd have a good
torque wrench. I've broken enough wrenches that I can pretty much tell when
it's going to happen, and now I stop before that point. For that reason, it's
probably true that an HF wrench is at least 90% as useful as any other. I have
yet to really pull on an HF wrench that I would call "excellent", however.
Various hammers and chisels I've purchased have all lost their shape after
just a bit of hard use.

I have HF power tools, but there's something slightly _off_ about each of
them, whether that's a flimsy plastic body, a saw blade arbor that moves
around, or whatever. I don't use any of them on even a monthly basis. If I
did, I would upgrade. Everything my brother has borrowed for a job has quickly
failed. He doesn't buy much at Harbor Freight.

I have a Craftsman cordless drill that has lasted _forever_ ; it predates the
tiny b&w Makita drills all the contractors have been using for years now.
Since the battery is old-fashioned dry cell rather than lithium, I just took
it to Ellis Battery for a rebuild when it failed.

~~~
Grishnakh
>I have yet to really pull on an HF wrench that I would call "excellent",
however. Various hammers and chisels I've purchased have all lost their shape
after just a bit of hard use.

The HF socket wrenches and sockets I've used have been at least as good as any
Craftsman competitor, even from over 20 years ago.

However, for chisels, if you're talking about for woodworking, that's
something I doubt I would buy from HF. For proper woodworking, chisels have to
be incredibly sharp and hold an edge, and that requires high-quality steel. I
guess if you're just installing some door latch plates a HF chisel might be OK
though, but I'd get something nice for doing any serious woodworking because
having really sharp chisels is critical for quality work.

------
Xcelerate
I relate to this guy so much.

> It makes me really happy when another Christmas or birthday has passed and I
> didn’t receive anything. It makes me feel understood.

My sister and I have this arrangement. I tell her every Christmas that her
gift (nothing) is the best one, because I don't have to figure out where to
store more junk until enough time has passed that I don't feel guilty throwing
it away. She's even more of a clean freak than I am — I believe she actually
gets a thrill out of throwing stuff away.

If I want some _object_ , I will buy that _object_ myself. I don't want
someone's semi-educated guess (that's most likely wrong) cluttering up my
apartment. What I find particularly strange is that people consistently give
me things that I explicitly tell them I don't want — they buy me stuff that
_they_ want for Christmas or that they think I "need".

The only gifts I like are the ones that have strong sentimental value —
something that shows a lot of thought went into it — perhaps a handmade photo
book or a good meal. For me, an object will never be as valuable as quality
time spent with family.

~~~
serg_chernata
Between my wife and I, the policy has been to go out and spend time together
instead of buying gifts. I don't try to push this onto others but it does work
with most of my close friends as well.

~~~
ycmbntrthrwaway
It works inside family or with girlfriends, but only as long as everybody
agrees to go somewhere. As with normal gifts, presenting tickets as a surprise
is not a good idea.

~~~
serg_chernata
By "go out" I didn't mean something that requires tickets. It could be dinner,
or a short getaway. In very few cases I've given gift cards to amazon or a
local mall. It's a little more personal than cash but I still get to leave
things open-ended.

------
austinjp
I don't live quite like this, but I feel similarly about gifts: I far prefer
them to be practical rather than decorative or frivolous.

I've realised that people can get slightly upset when I explain it to them.
They want to buy me something fun, something I'll "enjoy". Chances are I
won't, although I do of course appreciate the sentiment.

Equally, I find it more satisfying to buy a "useful" gift for others. And of
course people don't always appreciate this, and some prefer a trinket instead
of a practical item.

There's emotional context imbued in the act of giving, and some people embed
that in the object itself.

So I'm learning to allow people to express their feelings toward me by letting
them buy me whatever they want, although I will still hint at my preference if
given a choice.

This can lead to clutter, which I hate, but I've realised some people love. I
don't know the solution to this yet, but I suspect it's a combination of out-
of-site storage and in-view display cabinet type arrangements. I have disposed
of truly unwanted gifts, but I realise that's potentially hurtful so I don't
enjoy doing it.

~~~
VLM
Refrigerator door culture. At some point in life you will no longer be
permitted not to have magnets on your fridge. I made it until I got married.

Weaponized clothes are a thing too. Everyone knows nobody likes getting
someone elses choice of clothes as a gift, especially not kids, but it is a
socially acceptable weapon to kinda "get" the recipient. More a slap to the
face than a punch to the face, but none the less kinda an aggressive act.

~~~
bbarn
My father hated fridge magnets and resisted for years. Then he remarried, and
it started happening, slowly. One year, he bought a very nice refrigerator for
xmas. It's completely non-magnetic. I couldn't help but ask, and yes.. it was
intentional.

~~~
drunken-serval
This is why scotch tape exists. :)

------
branchless
I fight against this all the time. It's simply impossible due to all the guilt
involved.

I do not want anything for xmas/birthday. My wife always wants to get me
something and makes me feel like a killjoy. This is perhaps manageable.

Bigger problem is I have 2 kids who get invited to parties. I have to take the
birthday boy/girl something. Fine - but this means it's reciprocated.

Valentines day recently. Used to be for asking a new girl out - now you have
to gift something to your wife of 20 years. I have successfully vanquished
this one.

Coming over for dinner? They bring a (bad) bottle of wine that I now have to
get rid of. On and on the waste goes.

It just goes on and on.

~~~
ycmbntrthrwaway
Those thoughts sometimes lead me to conclusion that "gift" tradition is
invented or supported by marketing. It sounds like conspiracy theory, but it
is partially true: take for example valentines day that is exploited by
advertisement industry each year. I wonder if that gift tradition would be
nearly dead were it not for aggressive advertising.

~~~
ZeroFries
Doesn't require conspiracy. It's in the best interests of retailers to peddle
gift-giving, so they do. This peddling increases gift-giving, or the retailers
would stop doing it. Therefore it's safe to assume that gift-giving rates
would be lower if the retailers did not peddle it.

------
ycmbntrthrwaway
Every time I have a birthday I am terribly worried about receiving some gift
that I won't like from people who don't know me good enough but want to give
me some present. Receiving a gift that I don't like and having to avoid
showing that I don't really like it is worse than receiving nothing. In fact I
have enough money to buy anything I want myself, so there is really nothing I
would like to receive as a gift.

~~~
Scarbutt
_In fact I have enough money to buy anything I want myself, so there is really
nothing I would like to receive as a gift._

That sounds like a closed mentality to me, you never know really, someone
might just surprise you.

~~~
jrs235
Give me the gift of recognizing my preference for no material gifts.

EDIT: Or toilet paper. I'll eventually make use of and need TP.

~~~
Scarbutt
So my point was that unless you know everything about life and the universe
you might not know what your preferences are (and preferences change) ;) And
not all gifts are material.

But sure, there's nothing wrong in not wanting anything from someone else if
that is your thing.

------
noir_lord
I'm somewhat similar to this except furnished flats are rare where I live so I
have some furniture.

That said my bedroom has a bed and a side table, my living room a sofa,
computer desk and TV.

Spare bedroom has my road bike and my cycling gear (as a hobby it's
unavoidable).

I have a (somewhat) strict 1 closet policy for clothing, once I fill it for
each item in something has to go (easy this year as I dropped nearly 70lbs,
virtually nothing I had fits).

I could pack and move my entire possessions in a day and with the exception of
my computer gear/bike stuff replace everything for under a 1000 quid.

I can't even claim any asceticism or anything for this, I just don't buy stuff
I don't need and get rid of stuff I don't use because if I don't use it why
have to clean around it.

~~~
NovaS1X
>(easy this year as I dropped nearly 70lbs, virtually nothing I had fits).

Good job. That must feel good.

~~~
noir_lord
Dropped the first 60 in 4 months, that didn't feel great, 1500 calories a day
for 4 months got old really fast but yeah physically I feel better than I have
in a long time.

Also according to NHS guidelines as of a few weeks ago I'm no longer even
overweight I'm in the healthy range (not that I entirely trust their crude BMI
stuff) which is a nice place to be.

~~~
whitegrape
Nice. Did you just do it with strict calorie watching or some other diet? My
friend lost his 100lbs in about 5-6 months on Keto, I've used it to lose 50lbs
quickly myself, I think it makes the lower calorie count hard to notice... In
his case he avoided the clothing problem by wearing all his old clothes he's
had in storage boxes for years since they no longer fit.

~~~
noir_lord
Straight calorie counting, had a fancy spreadsheet I logged everything I ate
with calorie counts, it predicted weekly and monthly weight loss plus expected
goal weight date etc (I was out by a week, I hit target early as was averaging
1430 a day not 1500).

The prediction based on 3500 calories equally 1lb of weight loss was
remarkably accurate for me.

I also took supplements since 1500 a day is considered very borderline for a
man and I'm quite big naturally.

Supplemented with cod liver oil, multivitamin, vitamin D and calcium and used
dissolvable fibre drinks (one side effect of not eating a lot is unfortunate).

Breakfast was porridge (plain oats, no salt, sugar or honey), lunch was no fat
cottage cheese with salad, tea was either pork, chicken or fish with steamed
veggies.

Occasionally I'd eat McDonalds if the the junk craving was too strong (because
it has accurate calorie counts).

Drank a lot of water as well, probably 5-6 pints a day plus coffee and diet
energy drinks for pick me ups.

It was actually pretty easy once I got past the first week.

The hard part since has been eating clean and still getting 2500 calories,
it's amazing when you cut out sugar and really high fat stuff how much you
have to eat to get 2500 calories, its the equiv of 2.5kg of regular cottage
cheese!.

Blood pressure went down, insulin response is normal and I feel better
generally than I have done in ten years despite my ongoing medical problems,
you truly are what you eat.

------
grecy
My family has taken to giving "expereiences" rather than "stuff" because we
prefer to live with less stuff.

So we'll get each other cooking classes, surfing lessons, bungee jumping,
skydiving, etc. etc.

~~~
VLM
Birthday Dinner. Either very fancy home cooked, or go out to a very nice
restaurant. Its fun.

~~~
grecy
Home cooked every time - everyone in the kitchen pitching in - best family
time there is!

------
NovaS1X
I feel so close to this guy; I can relate to him so much.

I don't think I've lived in a house for longer than two years in my entire
life. I've lived in different cities, provinces, and even countries. I
naturally keep the amount of "stuff" that I own down to an amount that can be
packed up into one car/truck load. I love the sense of freedom that comes with
being able to pick up and go somewhere else in a day.

I also share the thoughts on gifts. Christmas time a Birthdays I always tell
people to not get me anything and I their gift to me is a good dinner and time
spent with each-other. If they have to get me something then it's the
essentials like clothing or consumables. I like having a small set of core,
quality items such as my clothing, cameras, and laptop/phone. Everything else
is temporary.

Come family time this will change, but for now I'm happy living simply.

------
AstroJetson
We agreed one year of no Christmas Gifts. I brought a $100 bill. Gave it to my
brother who passed it on to my sister who gave it to me, I gave it back to
her, she gave it to my brother and he gave it back to me.

Next work day "Hey for Christmas both my brother and sister gave me $100
each!" So it works out ;-)

I'm like 0xffff2 I have a ton of things that makes house stuff go better like
a ladder, hand tools I like electronics, bench full of parts and different
tools. My partner is a quilter, so tons of fabric fills that space. There are
two shelves with 4 totes of holiday decorations. And so it goes.

I have divested of lots of stuff, like paper books now reside as digital ones
on a file server, a book case of movies and music are now stored on a few TB
drives. We are pretty much devoid of small decorations that need to be dusted.

But unlike the University me that could move to my first few places with all I
owned in my VW bus, the last move took most of a Mayflower truck.

Not sure how all of the things I like to do are going to fit into the Old
Folks Home in a few years.

------
greggman
I do want stuff but ... about 30 months ago I got rid of everything and
started traveling. I've been living out of a large suitcase and backpack for
that entire time, staying at hotels or renting AirBnBs a month at a time.

Because I'm living out of my suitcase I can't buy anything without throwing
something away. I have 2 pairs of shoes, dress and non-dress. When I've gone
to some place tropical I've had to buy sandals and then throw them away when I
get on the next plane because there's no room in my suitcase.

It also means I can't really go shopping. Some of you might think that's a
good thing but many people enjoy shopping while traveling. I'm in a cold place
now. A couple of days ago I spilt something on my one heavy jacket. While it's
in the cleaners I had to buy another which I'll have to discard one way or
another before I get on the next plane.

For me personally yea, I miss having a TV to chill at. I miss video games and
PC games (carrying a mac which few games run on and can't have a console).
Wish I had a desktop PC for higher end graphics. Wish I could play with VR but
can't carry that equipment. (well except for a Google Cardboard)

I'm ready to go back to living somewhere though being un-rooted I'm finding it
extremely hard to decide where I should plant roots again.

~~~
DaveSapien
So much this! I am in the exact position and facing the same issue. For me
going back full time to my homeland and buying a ps4 seems like a good idea,
but I have to keep reminding myself that these comfortable things ultimately
just drag you down and end up owning you. I too will plant roots 'somewhere'
someday, and that to will be an adventure. Good luck in finding your home!

------
ck2
Not wanting "stuff" is a gamble that your present and future is secure and
safe.

Having been homeless at one point, I've become a bit of a hoarder, because you
never know when things will go south and you are one month away from being
homeless (again).

Also we'll see how often you keep erasing things and starting from scratch as
you get older and find that remembering things is a lot harder and takes a lot
longer to rebuild.

Youth can cause foolishness.

~~~
SyneRyder
That's an interesting perspective, as Derek's future is quite secure. He had a
large personal exit from his business CD Baby, and put all the money into a
charitable trust[1] that will be given away when he dies, but in the meantime
pays him a (very) good annual income out of the interest for the rest of his
life.

"Why I gave away my company to charity"

[1] [https://sivers.org/trust](https://sivers.org/trust)

~~~
draw_down
I agree with both of you - this minimalistic getting rid of all your stuff is
an affluent-person thing. That doesn't make it wrong, but it is an important
piece of the background, I think.

This is part of why I wrote in my other comment that we should not conflate
this minimalism stuff with some sort of higher virtue. It's just affluent
people prioritizing a certain type of convenience over other types of
convenience, because they can afford to.

------
colmvp
People have good criticisms about e-readers like the Kindle. It's not great
for technical books. It can be a little laggy and not as sensory compared to
paper books.

That said, the ability to retake space is soooooo worth it. My Kindle has
dozens of books, magazines, and long form articles. Over the long term, I have
saved volumes of physical space and pounds of weight.

While I miss the physical look of having rows of beautiful books decorate a
place, I don't mind having more open space for my psyche and other activities
(music).

~~~
puzzlingcaptcha
I give away physical books I liked to friends, and those that I didn't like to
Books for Amnesty. While you can email someone the .epub, it's not quite the
same. A scribbled dedication will persist longer and be more evocative that an
email too.

Technical books I tend to keep as ebooks on my desktop where I work anyway.

~~~
colmvp
While I have friends who read, they admit they don't read as much as they used
to. So giving books or even games to them often results in an expensive dust
collector.

And while I admire the act of giving books away, either to BoA or one's local
library, I like to go back to my book every once in a while to recall a
specific section that resonated. E-readers allows me to save highlights in the
cloud, where I can go back to find particular interesting tidbits and find the
fuller section if need be. This is helpful complicated concepts that often
require multiple reads over time to sink in.

------
moonlighter
I can very much relate to this; my motto is "you don't own stuff; the stuff
owns you". And every time I've moved, I was amazed at just how much stuff one
(even unwillingly) accumulates, and how liberating it feels to get rid of it.
I also prefer to own just a few high quality and/or useful things over having
a 'ton of crap'.

~~~
majewsky
I've recently started building an actual database of my physical inventory,
and have already found multiple items which I needlessly own twice because
when I bought the second one, I didn't realize I had one already.

~~~
artursapek
That's awesome. You just have a sql database of your physical possessions?

~~~
mbrock
One time I took square photos of all my things and put them in CouchDB with
just a label. It was pretty fun to see an alphabetical list of photos of
nearly everything I owned. Like an RPG inventory.

~~~
solotronics
This is an amazing idea. First thing that comes to mind is a process to
automate labeling like with google images. Is there anything open source that
fits this?

~~~
wayfarer2s
That seems like it would take longer than just manually labeling the things to
begin with, especially with edge cases (what happens when there are 2 items in
the picture? how do you handle mislabeling?).

------
ycmbntrthrwaway
This newsitem reminds me of times whan HN had that news about people traveling
with just a backpack, 100-thing challenge and other minimalism-related news. I
discovered [http://zenhabits.net/](http://zenhabits.net/) and /r/minimalism.
The idea of selecting 1 or 2 Most Important Tasks for the next day really
worked for me, for example.

Anyone care to share some good minimalism-related resources?

------
andrewjl
I grew up in a house with lots of stuff and share Derek's aversion to clutter.
My solution is to aim for quality over quantity.

I think there's still a case for keeping a good set of tools around. For us
software engineers, most tools are virtual with the exception of our computers
and / or writing utensils. I don't view it as any different from someone
mechanically inclined keeping their physical tools around. Same deal with
hiking or camping gear.

I still find it hard to dispose of books. Not so much because I want to keep
the physical book but because the book is a physical manifestation of an idea
I respect and want to keep a physical record of it in my life. (I even own
both physical and electronic versions of some of my favorites to re-read when
traveling.)

~~~
cfallin
Books and tools are my two vices as well.

Books especially -- there's something to be said for the user-interface both
of an individual paper book, and of a whole bookshelf, in terms of ease of
navigation. PDFs allow you to grep but spatial memory is much better suited to
physical things. And I'm much more likely to pick up a paperback from my
bookshelf when I'm looking for something to read than I am to go find a PDF
and sit in front of my laptop/tablet.

And finally I really like the social aspect of physical books. "Hey, we were
just talking about X, and you might like this book!" works way better with
paper than with a PDF.

------
jrs235
My number one wish/want/desire for my birthday (which happens to be today!) is
no gifts. I prefer no one make a big deal either.

One year my parents didn't send me a card or anything. It was soooo sweet!
They finally listened and respected my desire(s). Then I found out they
actually forgot. Which was bittersweet because that's sad to many but awesome
because they made my birthday a non issue.

Anyways, for my birthday... I want to celebrate my parents for giving me the
greatest gift of all, life. I'm ordering flowers for them right now.

Edit: changed "a catch 22" to "bittersweet" and "mother" to "parents".

------
carsongross
I very much appreciate the sentiment, particularly in todays marketing-
saturated environment. However, I can say from personal experience that having
a few nice or meaningful things can lead to some happiness, given the
appropriate relationship with them.

This book has quite a bit of silliness in it (I found it charming, you may
not) but it has been very good for my mental health:

[http://www.amazon.com/The-Life-Changing-Magic-Tidying-
Declut...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Life-Changing-Magic-Tidying-
Decluttering/dp/1607747308)

------
phat4life
this is why when i give gifts, i give something edible, or consumable, like
nice chocolate, wine, coffee, etc, usually something gourmet or something that
the person wouldn't normally buy.

------
SCdF
Fascinating post. Parallel thought: should he be deleting old blog posts to
keep his online collection of things decluttered?

------
draw_down
Getting rid of stuff feels great, but I think we have a cultural thing where
we equate it with some sort of higher virtue. That's a mistake, but sure, get
rid of all your stuff. Like I said, feels great.

------
mhurron
Not having any friends is a really easy way to deal with this.

------
markmontymark
I don't really enjoy getting presents all that much because I've attained a
certain comfort in life. But, it doesn't seem to me that I had to consider
much or stress a lot about where I could donate gifts or items I don't want.
There's Baras Foundation, Goodwill, AmVets, shelters, schools, so so many
people happily ready to receive anything you give them.

Ok, you don't want stuff, but spare me the stress you feel around your
family/others not understanding you. Use your energy in a more friendly and
giving way and maybe you'll find that it's a bonus to receive the chance to
get out in your community, meet and share and give to those that could use a
leg up.

I bet once you cycle back and tell your family and friends about the people
and places and experiences you now have after donating things, they'll
understand. Some will have a hard time with it, but I doubt for long.

I get a bonus item every 5 yrs at my company. Couple years ago received a 60"
TV, took me all of a minute and one email to a local school in need and they
drove over and picked it up.

~~~
philh
I don't like having obligations thrust upon me without my consent. A gift is
an obligation: I need to find a use for it, or at least find somewhere out of
the way to keep it until I can get rid of it.

The way I read your comment, you're trying to replace one obligation with
another (find somewhere to give it away). You're telling me that this absolves
the first obligation ("they'll understand"), and that I'll enjoy the second
one ("it's a bonus to..."). I'm skeptical of both of those things: you don't
know me and you don't know my family and friends. But even if you're right, I
don't want the second obligation.

If I want to get out in the community, I can do that without waiting for
someone to give me a gift I don't want.

(As it happens, in my case, I often like the gift more than I dislike the
obligation. Maintaining an amazon wishlist is helpful for this. But not
everyone is the same, and "spare me" is an unkind reaction to them.)

~~~
markmontymark
You are filled with what emotions when you:

\- donate \- after talking to a friend you realize you have something you
don't want you can give them \- talk to a neighbor and realize you can clear
out space in a garage or house or shed by giving them something \- just throw
something in an alley and someone comes by within the hour and happily loads
it up in a truck for use or selling elsewhere

Sorry if you can't see the positive in the effort expended.

Yes, I should not assume much about you. I am optimistic that people don't
feel WORSE during the act of giving.

~~~
philh
That's not the point. If I want to do good, I can choose to do good. I don't
want someone else choosing how I do good. If those things are positive, if I
feel good about them, then I can do them, whether or not someone has given me
a gift I don't want.

~~~
markmontymark
My "spare me" could really have been summarized as "1st world problems".
Giving stuff away to needy trumps my own personal feelings of "obligated to do
something with a gift given to me". Maybe I over-prioritize in my head about
this kinda thing, but reading OP post about experiencing stress sounds kinda
lame or just words from too young a person.

~~~
philh
"First world problems" is also unkind, you're dismissing someone else's
feelings because you personally don't have the same problem.

The guy started a company in 1998, I'm guessing he's not what you call young.

------
juniorplenty
"So when I receive something in the mail, no matter how thoughtful it is, it
kinda sucks because now I have to figure out how to get rid of it. I feel
really wasteful if I just throw it in the trash, so I have to figure out who
to give it to. Then I feel bad for whoever spent a bunch of money and time to
get and send me something."

Hey Derek - you might find Yerdle a useful outlet for this stuff. It's not
selling for USD (so you don't feel bad,) and it's not donation - you swap
these things that you don't need for YRD (Yerdle Re-use Dollars) and if you
ever do want something you redeem your YRD.

Meanwhile, your unwanted gift goes to someone who actually wants it, and who
either can't afford it, or has simply decided not to participate in a
consumerist economy. The YRD they spend was earned through a similar give. On
Yerdle, our community shops with what they already own, instead of creating
more waste through more consumption.

Anyway - way to commit to decluttering, and try that next time, see if it
feels better...

------
DubiousPusher
I allow myself a single medium size box of sentimental items. If the box
should become full, I select some things to photograph and pass them on
(though that seldom happens.) Everything else I own must be useful. That is
not to say my home is spartan. Art, decor, etc are useful but they must be
employed to that prupose. No stashing such things away for future use.

------
sridca
I have a similar arrangement (live in a furnished apartment, don't own stuff,
etc) except there is no gift problem - as in my culture (India) reunions are
more common than gift-giving.

Example:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Pongal#Kaanum_Pongal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Pongal#Kaanum_Pongal)

------
KineticLensman
Perhaps this is a generational thing. When I was much younger, I was also
minimalist. My key possessions were the things I could carry to a new
apartment, plus a massive stash of books at my parent's house.

Nowadays, I have a house myself, and have spent >15 years converting bare
terrain into a garden. I still enjoy travel, but enjoy being grounded in a
space I've created myself. Now, my key possessions are good tools: a beefy rig
for 3D rendering, a pro-quality camera, some essential garden kit including
BBQ, log splitter, leaf blowers, lawn mower, etc and some good general purpose
cooking gear (e.g pans and knives). This is my 'essential' toolkit of stuff.

Ironically, I would now find it much easier to part with the majority of my
physical book collection, since apart from a few nostalgic items (first
hardback edition of The Lord of the Rings, etc) most of this stuff is in the
cloud.

Your mileage may vary, young grasshopper.

------
danans
Like so many things, minimizing "stuff" falls on a spectrum, and your ability
to minimize depends a lot on your status in life (kids, family, wealth). It
seems like what the author is talking about here is stuff that gives you
neither basic utility nor inspiration, but that you have accepted as part of a
social custom that is disconnected from both utility and inspiration.

A beautiful-to-you piece of artwork (or 10) could be worth keeping if provides
you inspiration. A really nice chair or couch, or a plant could do the same,
as do your family heirlooms. These are examples of stuff that it probably is
worth keeping.

Things that do little to nothing to sustain or inspire you, but whose primary
purpose is social status signaling are good candidates for stuff reduction.

------
anuj_nm
My girlfriend lives this philosophy of minimalism, and I try to follow it as
well. She's had to move at least once a year every year for the past 8 years,
and she brings her stuff down to two suitcases each time (with no storage
anywhere else).

I'm not as regular at it as she is, but I go through 'stuff cleansings' about
once a year. I probably have 4 suitcases/boxes, along with some stuff stored
at my parents's place in India.

Living minimally is very freeing. It allows you have to a low maintenance
lifestyle, while giving you a sense of security. On the other hand, getting
into any hobby becomes a trade ofd between buying and maintaining the
equipment, or paying absurd amounts to rent it.

------
suyash
My rule is:

Only keep stuff that gives you a lot of joy or makes you money. Everything
else must go!

Read this book if you want to clean up your junk: The Life-Changing Magic of
Tidying Up - The Japanese Art of Decluttering and Organizing by Marie Kondo or
atleast watch her talk on YouTube - very inspiring.

------
jarjoura
I looooove purging stuff from my life. I'm about to move again in a couple
months and will sell, donate and throw away pretty much most of my current
possessions.

It's a great freeing feeling, and I'm not one that gets sentimental over
inanimate objects.

------
paddy_m
I feel similarly about wedding registries, for myself emphatically and for
others slightly less. I'm fortunate to have everything material possession
that I want, asking for more seems wrong to me. I feel incredibly grateful,
and couldn't imagine asking anyone, much less people who have less to give
material possessions that I don't need. I don't need them, nor would my
partner, because we have managed to live to this point without them. If it
comes time to register for a wedding, I would only request that donations be
given to select charities. </end rant>

------
NEDM64
I'm not that extreme, but I'm always postponing the day I finally get a trash
bag and fill it with everything I don't want or don't need and put it in the
trash or sell it on eBay/give it to goodwill.

The favorite part of my house, is the micro studio in my apartment where I
keep my electronics stuff (workbench with instruments) and various components
like resistors, transistors, caps, inductors, switches, LEDs, glue logic,
mcu's soldering stuff. Because I arranged it like it should be, with
everything in it's own place.

------
forinti
I really wish we only gave gifts to children and that between adults people
would exchange just edibles (wine, chocolates, or some really nice home baked
bread) if they exchanged anything at all.

------
grownseed
This is something I've written about before, at least indirectly, but I
believe not owning much at all has deep therapeutical value. Until recently, I
was in a very similar situation to the author, I sold and gave away nearly all
of my stuff (an apartment full of it) years ago, to only be left with a
backpack and a suitcase worth of stuff. It was extremely liberating, I didn't
have things to look at making me wonder whether I used them enough or
unfolding years of history associated to it that would burden my mind. By the
time I'd gotten accustomed to this lifestyle, the only thing that mattered to
me was my passport, and only because I wanted to keep travelling. The rest of
my stuff could have been stolen and I would have shrugged at it. After a
while, that made me realize that the problem wasn't so much with the
belongings themselves, but rather the attachment we develop towards things,
sometimes to unhealthy degrees.

My finger in the air theory is, we teach kids to value the things they have,
because as adults we work to pay for most things and we know what it's like to
not be able to afford something, particularly when it comes to providing for
your close ones. Children's concept of money is rather simplistic (or even
non-existent), so I believe the value is more emotionally based (there have
been studies showing that children ascribe human emotions to inanimate things,
among other things). I think this emotional bond with objects remains, to a
certain extent, as we grow older, which would also emphasize the idea of
owning as a social signal (i.e. "that person has many [friends|things]"). The
idea that we should be thankful for the things we have, not the things we
might get, is great in theory, but explaining to a small child that they
should be thankful for their very life is a bit brutal to say the least.

Not completely sure where I'm going with this. I suppose attachment is
something for which you have to both program and de-program yourself to
appreciate without being dependent. But even that is made more complicated as
soon as another person enters the picture (partner, child, etc.). The way I
try to make it work is to offer people tangible signs of affection, such as
cooking a nice meal, playing some music, help out with a problem and so on,
things that can be valued in and of themselves, but that carry little or no
baggage. Likewise, I tend to ask close ones to give me something from
themselves, rather than buy things. As the giver, you get to do something
you're passionate about and share it with the person you care for. As the
receiver, you value the sentiment more profoundly and you learn a little bit
more about the other. Anywho, it works for me, YMMV :)

~~~
chipsy
My mom, and to a lesser extent myself, have some attachment issues to old
stuff. It's not quite like "Hoarders" but it's worse than it has to be, with
lots of books and boxes and boxes of books, shelves buried behind boxes, etc.

Basically, all the stuff we have is a method of remembering the past, and if
you are very sentimental, some of it crosses over into "If I get rid of the
object, I lose the memory". Trashing stuff then becomes difficult because I
have to get past that towards the practical element of "this is just clutter
99% of the time and it impedes my future self", on top of concerns like "I
don't want to just trash it if it has value" which make it 10 times as
difficult to eliminate stuff.

I'm attacking the problem now with a slow-paced weekly streak to clean and
organize things. I don't necessarily throw things out every week, but I do
document what I have and how to categorize it. That way I can make a decision
without having to open a box and bring out the stuff.

------
mstade
Every time I read anything from Derek Sivers, or see him give a talk, I feel
happy and inspired – regardless of whether I agree with what he's actually
saying. I like that.

~~~
sivers
Thanks! That's a wonderful compliment. Email & introduce yourself sometime.

------
lifeformed
I used to do this, but then I started to really get into cooking, which makes
you end up with a ton of stuff! Pots and pans, tools, utensils, appliances,
etc.

~~~
lfowles
Bowls bowls bowls and tiny bowls. I'm sure I could make do with much less in
the kitchen but that wouldn't be very satisfying to the functional programmer
in me.

------
UncleSam
I grew up with my parents getting us lots of gifts for Christmas and
birthdays, but now I realize that I don't enjoy that. I much prefer that they
don't send us lots of small gifts that I will have to find a 'spot' for in the
house. I understand how someone can choose to live a very minimalist life. I'm
not there yet, but I'm working my way towards having less stuff.

------
mathattack
I agree. My brother keeps wanting to send massive toys for our kids, and we
have to finesse out of it. "We have a small space..."

~~~
nkrisc
This is one of my biggest anticipated headaches for when we have kids. One of
the hypothetical future grandparents likes to spoil...

~~~
mathattack
Just have the kids, and don't let them catch you throwing out their old
artwork from school.

------
AndrewKemendo
Our family has taken this philosophy as well and you wouldn't believe the
animosity we have gotten from it. People calling us selfish for asking for no
gifts, or getting upset when we get rid of the stuff they do send even after
we asked them not to send anything.

Quite baffling till you understand that giving gifts is the only way some
people know how to express themselves.

------
BinaryResult
My daughter just had a birthday and we got a "Frozen" themed waffle maker.
It's tiny, cheap, ugly and we already have a waffle maker. Now I have to
figure out what to do with it because it's brand new in the box. Unfortunately
every day that passes increases the likelihood that it just ends up in the
garbage =P

~~~
whitegrape
Sounds like it's more for your daughter to experiment with cooking waffles on
than to be of practical use? Kind of like an easy-bake-oven. Though if I had a
kid I'd just encourage them to use the full appliances to start with. ;)
Hopefully you'll take it to Goodwill/equivalent instead. Maybe it'll end up in
a landfill after that, but I always feel like I should give people a shot at
finding my junk to be their treasure.

------
fs111
I don't get it. His website says he reads quite a few books. Why can't he just
create an amazon wishlist full of books he wants to read and refer to that?
Problem solved. Nobody likes getting random stuff, but getting things you
would have gotten yourself anyway is not a problem, I'd argue.

~~~
obsurveyor
I assume he reads digital books based on his uncluttered nature and gifting
Kindle books is a pain because you can't schedule when it's delivered or
create a redemption code. It's just immediately sent to that person's Kindle
library.

~~~
fs111
fair, but not all books exist in kindle form.

------
hack_mmmm
"Living minimalistic" \- life connects you more to the present. In the end,
this is what matters most. But having memories makes us more empathetic by
virtue of emotions. If you know yourself and connect with humanity no matter
what, then living minimalistic could be great! Otherwise not!

------
msluyter
Related, the notion of "peak stuff:"

[http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/31/consume...](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/31/consumerism-
reached-peak-stuff-search-for-happiness)

------
collinmanderson
After reading this article, I had the thought to view the html source. I
wasn't disappointed. :) Very clean and minimal. Very little html, very little
css, very little javascript.

------
waynecochran
In grad school I could fit everything I owned into my small pickup. Now that I
am married w/ 3 kids, it would take a semi truck to move. I long for those
simpler days. sigh.

~~~
magic_beans
It's not like someone forced you to marry and have three kids ;)

------
jrs235
It's my birthday today. This is the gift I would like: The gift of not having
to expend energy over the issue of gifts and social reactions to them. Thank
you.

~~~
gknoy
Happy birthday! Best of all, since it's not my birthday you don't have to
worry about reciprocation! :D

------
seansmccullough
Best thing about not having a lot of stuff (if you live alone) - studio
apartments. Easier to clean, lower rent/utilities, and easy to move whenever
you want.

------
RikNieu
Well, I certainly want stuff for my birthday. But only chocolate stuff. All
the chocolate I can stuff in my belly.

------
xyzzy4
The last time before I moved, I took a bunch of perfectly good furniture and
other stuff I didn't want anymore and put it on my street corner. Within a
day, it was gone. There was low income housing nearby so maybe one of those
people took it.

~~~
bstamour
You don't need to be low-income to appreciate free, perfectly good stuff.

------
mdni007
If you don't want it send it to me.

------
mattbettinson
I like when people buy me nice film.

------
swah
Acquire stuff, give unwanted stuff to people who want it.. its really not that
hard.

------
jmzbond
Love this discussion! I’m currently running Last Minute Gear:
www.lastmingear.com which rents outdoors gear for camping/ snowsports in the
San Francisco Bay Area. Before that though, the concept was called
www.projectborrow.com, very much borrowing!

I want to address why there aren’t “successful” startups here in my experience
and my outlook on the future. The 2 dominant forces governing buy vs not-buy
behavior for anyone are price & convenience. For example, if a tent costs $200
to buy and $100 to rent, you’re obviously going to buy it, since as long as
you get 2 uses out of that tent, it’s financially more worthwhile to buy. If a
tent costs $200 to buy and $1 to rent, you’re obviously never going to buy it
since you’ll probably never camp 200 times in your life.

In the real world, though, the rental price is fixed and retail prices move.
Let’s say the rental price is $20. A nice tent is $200 and a crappy tent is
$40. If you’re like most people, you’re going to decide to buy the $40 tent,
reasoning that as long as you get 2 uses out of it, you win.

But this is actually very irrational, because it doesn’t account for the fact
that: \- that crappy tent may break your 1st trip \- even if not, you’d have
to make sure you maintain it well enough such that it’s still usable the 2nd
trip (i.e., did you know storing a wet tent can lead to mildew growth?) \- and
the psychological/ spatial burden cited elsewhere in this discussion

$40 may be too much of a low ball, but the reasoning above is why people
persistently choose to buy instead of rent even though rationally, renting is
almost always better. It’s irrational, but such is the amazing magnetic power
of the low price. (Should prices be so low in the first place, aka should a
bag of chips be cheaper than a bag of carrots, is a-whole-nother debate!)

Borrowing is just like renting, except that the cost is the value of your time
in finding a lender and sorting out all the logistics. This has its own set of
complications, because what I found is that different people place different
premiums on non-monetary values (aka convenience). In other words, some people
would rather pay a taxi back and forth $40 to get a tent for free, while
others would rather rent a tent at a store for $40. Same cash outflow, but
vastly different user beliefs about which is more “worth it.” Here’s an
extreme example: if I told you that the building you lived in would stock a
mini “toolbox” on every floor so residents could share things like drills, and
the building would cover all costs, you can bet that plenty of people are
still going to buy their own things. Your closet is 10 feet closer, and
therefore, to some people, a million bucks more worth it. (Consider the
startup service provider Alfred.)

Because people are so different in how they perceive the value of not buying,
I think it’s improbable to have a product that works for even 50% of the
market. In fact, I’d venture that stuff-sharing startups will continue, but
you’ll see a lot of smaller players rather than large. But that of course
limits investment, which further limits the appeal of this space.

