
Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins. - permanence
I placed an order for bitcoins early last week and was slated to receive them on Friday. Not only did I not recieve them, the transaction disappeared from my account, even though the ACH withdrawal had already clearly happened from my bank account.<p>Now, I&#x27;m still missing bitcoins in my account for transactions that have already been cleared and I&#x27;ve received a portion of the $10,701.03 in bitcoin at the price that I was was locked in at if I was to receive them on Friday, December 13th. I received them 5 days late and at the price locked in on December 8.<p>Coinbase is at fault and they&#x27;ve violated their own terms of service. I&#x27;ve asked for a similar resolution that the other gentleman on HN got from Brian, and this is the response I received from their customer support:<p>&quot;I&#x27;m not sure how that guy got the CEO of the company to intercede on his behalf, but that&#x27;s definitely not a normal handling of that case.<p>I simply do not have the ability to do that, I&#x27;m sorry. None of the admins do. That guy must have been one of our extremely high volume VIP users or something in order for something like that to have happened.<p>I...don&#x27;t really know how to respond further. That does seem somewhat unfair. Very sorry, but I just don&#x27;t have the ability to push through such a request. Nor is it possible to forward a ticket to our CEO. My apologies, but I&#x27;m just not able to be of further help here...&quot;<p>What&#x27;s wrong with Coinbase right now? I&#x27;m a huge fan of them, but this is terrible customer service. I can&#x27;t get a fair resolution because your ticketing system doesn&#x27;t allow you to send a ticket to Brian or any of your other superiors? What kind of customer service is this?<p>I would even love an acknowledgment that Coinbase violated its TOS and is in the wrong here. I&#x27;m just looking for a fair resolution.
======
znowi
When it takes a public outcry on HN for a company to do their job, I no longer
deal with such a company. Simple as that. I don't care if you raised $25
million - if you can't treat your users fairly, you deserve neither.

~~~
seferphier
Agreed. When there is a public outcry, it means that there is inadequate
processes are put into place for protect their customers. This happened twice
today. This means something is fundamentally broken in Coinbase's customer
service.

Many famous VCs and founders browse HN. This will hurt their reputation.

~~~
DanielRibeiro
Yes, Coinbase is a YC company[1], yes YC hosts this site (Hacker News is,
after all, [https://news.ycombinator.com](https://news.ycombinator.com)), yes
their investors do comment on Hacker News threads[2].

Also, the CEO of Coinbase is on HN[4]. He is the top response to the other
indignant thread[5], where he seems to be trying to fix this issue. Also note
that you can easily find the CEO's email from his GitHub account[6]

I understand there are many people who are very angry at the whole situation
(just look at the conversation on Reddit[7]). I can only imagine how many
other cases he is facing. The timing on this whole thing is just awful (1 week
after funding announced, BitCoin crashes), which makes the whole situation
very very awful. And giving support on public forums with angry customers is
super hard, particularly because you start encouraging more people to do it,
which escalates the situation to impossible terms, which sucks your time,
which could be used to helping all the customers, including all the ones who
are not being loud on Hacker News / Twitter / Reddit (also note that it is
almost 4 AM where these people live, and they are probably sleeping).

I honestly expect Coinbase to do the right thing[8], and that you'll get your
money back (or your money's worth of BTC).

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4177605](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4177605)

[2] Marc Andressen is
[https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=cdixon](https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=cdixon)
, Chris Dixon is
[https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=cdixon](https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=cdixon)
and they both commentd on their investment announcement thread[3]. Ben
Horowitz is
[https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=bhorowitz](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=bhorowitz),
but he has not ben very active here.

[3]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6893658](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6893658)

[4]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=barmstrong](https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=barmstrong)

[5]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6929705](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6929705)

[6] First response on Google for me:
[https://github.com/barmstrong](https://github.com/barmstrong), also the same
username on HN: barmstrong@gmail.com

[7] [http://www.reddit.com/r/Coinbase](http://www.reddit.com/r/Coinbase)

[8] Brian Chesky told the story how Marc helped AirBnb during one of their
worst crisis, on this video:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6yP...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6yPfxcqEXhE#t=5784)

~~~
Tehnix
Actually, Bitcoin crashing can only be an advantage to them since they lock
the prices when the customer buys from them. As in, they just got an order for
20 btc at $1000 pr. btc, but, since it's crashed, _they_ only have to pay $500
pr. btc and the customer still only gets them as if they still cost $1000.
Effectively leaving them with a $500 profit pr. btc.

~~~
unclebucknasty
Perhaps, but then, if that's how they were managing, then they could go out of
business on a strong move up.

I think it's more likely that they are using a combo of reserve bitcoins plus
actually buying on the market at the time you place an order. This is why, on
some heavy volume days, you will see the message that Coinbase itself (not
just you as a user) has reached its buy limit for the day. They buy at the
price they quote you, then wait for your funds to clear ACH to deposit the
coin in your account.

So, another risk Coinbase has is when a customer buys (prompting Coinbase to
buy), then the customer's funds don't settle via ACH. Coinbase is then stuck
with the coin until they can fulfill someone else's order. This might be at a
loss if BTC has moved down. In fact, if a user places an order and BTC moved
sharply down, it is likely possible that the user could purposely liquidate
the bank account so the ACH would fail. I am betting they have seen this.

They have been toying with Instant buys as well, but having to adjust their
requirements. In the first iteration, I remembered wondering how they weren't
losing their shirts, as it was designed pretty naively, as if everyone were
honest. Sure enough, they changed their requirements.

In general, they take on more risk than their customers, but one thing I do
fault them for is failing to communicate changes in requirements, etc. And,
apparently, they do need more robust processes, automated auditing, etc. It is
the most reliable place to buy that I have found, but it definitely has some
of the Wild West feel of BTC itself.

~~~
bushido
> They buy at the price they quote you, then wait for your funds to clear ACH
> to deposit the coin in your account.

This is simply stupid, if true. There is no way any institution trading any
type of instrument, asset, commodity, security etc should ever do this. And I
doubt they do this.

> Coinbase has is when a customer buys (prompting Coinbase to buy), then the
> customer's funds don't settle via ACH. Coinbase is then stuck with the coin
> until they can fulfill someone else's order. This might be at a loss if BTC
> has moved down. In fact, if a user places an order and BTC moved sharply
> down, it is likely possible that the user could purposely liquidate the bank
> account so the ACH would fail. I am betting they have seen this.

Again this is based on the most likely false premise that they do buy the
goods before the payment is cleared. This is simply insane.

If you're right about your bet that they have seen this, and if the do buy the
BTC before payment clears that they get what they deserve. There can never be
bonus points for anyone doing nonsensical things.

> they have been toying with Instant buys as well

What type of instant buys?

Instantly buying the BTC on an exchange once the payment is cleared using a
market order by default unless the user specifies a max. buy rate (or a min
sell rate)? This is the only way they should have been doing it.

Or is it instantly buying it when the customer shows intent to purchase before
the ACH clear? This is just stupid.

> In general, they take on more risk than their customers

If this is true, they should get an award for the most ridiculous business
practices of the year. Again I doubt this is true.

What we need to find out is, in case of a delay on large order where the price
of BTC went up did they honor the original quoted rate or the current rate?

~~~
gojomo
Buying when the customer orders, rather than when the ACH clears, does create
a risk if the price plummets.

But buying only when the funds clear creates a risk when the price skyrockets.
It makes it harder to ever please customers with an 'honored price' that's
lower than when the BTC arrives.

Also, any whiff of a two-step process, where the customer reconfirms the buy-
intent at funds-clearing, would put Coinbase closer to holding $USD balances
for customers. That's something that I suspect, as a regulatory matter, they
would rather not do. A single irrevocable 'buy' with delivery some time later
(at either a locked-in or a floating price) is closer to the e-commerce
transactional pattern they'd prefer. (Otherwise, they look more like a money-
transfer/foreign-exchange/banking/daytrading outfit.)

Despite the last 2 weeks, BTC has had more total _upswing_ than _downswing_ –
going over its history from $0 to $hundreds in value. So, buying early likely
will have won more often than lost, for Coinbase and its customers.

Calling that approach 'simply stupid' and 'simply insane', without having
considered the real risk and regulatory factors affecting their business is
silly.

~~~
bushido
> Buying when the customer orders, rather than when the ACH clears, does
> create a risk if the price plummets.

It creates a risk either ways, it's just that different parties take ownership
of the risk.

> But buying only when the funds clear creates a risk when the price
> skyrockets. It makes it harder to ever please customers with an 'honored
> price' that's lower than when the BTC arrives.

Actually you're complicating it more than necessary. There is no reason for
coinbase to execute a market order as soon as the funds clear. They can simply
let a customer make an informed decision, and decide if they want to buy at
current market rate (market order) or using a limit order which will be
executed internally if a customer tries to sell lower or will be filled on the
exchange if the exchange reaches fills the order first.

This practice has existed for decades, whichever order is filled first simply
cancels the other order.

This is also completely fair and very acceptable. Buying first waiting and
waiting for the transfer to clear is not and will never be an good choice.

> Also, any whiff of a two-step process, where the customer reconfirms the
> buy-intent at funds-clearing, would put Coinbase closer to holding $USD
> balances for customers. That's something that I suspect, as a regulatory
> matter, they would rather not do. A single irrevocable 'buy' with delivery
> some time later (at either a locked-in or a floating price) is closer to the
> e-commerce transactional pattern they'd prefer.

I can see why this would be viewed as the only choice. Unfortunately as I have
stated in another thread, when trouble from regulator begins they will get
classified as akin to a financial institution anyways. When this happens
they'll have more trouble due to the misrepresentation.

> Otherwise, they look more like a money-transfer/foreign-
> exchange/banking/daytrading outfit.

Again, I can see where you are coming from, but this doesn't mean the law will
see them as anything but a money-transfer/banking/daytrading outfit as they
fit the definition most of these in totality and a few (day trading) loosely.
I left out foreign-exchange as this one is the only one they are safe from,
until/unless BTC gets reclassified from a security(it meets SECs definition
requirements) to a currency.

> Despite the last 2 weeks, BTC has had more total upswing than downswing –
> going over its history from $0 to $hundreds in value. So, buying early
> likely will have won more often than lost, for Coinbase and its customers.

On first glance this may seem like a likely observation, but it is
unfortunately misguided (no offense intended). Unfortunately people give too
much credence to the notion that past behavior dictates future movement and
forget to compensate for lack of sample data and =/\- effects of things such
as spreads, volume, volatility etc.

If there is a single profound lesson I can impart about this topic it would be
"buy low sell high" only works for short-selling, albeit in reverse order
("sell low buy lower") but for most traders, investors and speculators they
should learn that the true lesson to remain profitable in any trade is to "buy
high and sell higher". This is simply calculated using momentum previous x day
momentum. Preferably between 10 to 20 days. You could use a higher number but
it would be too late to enter or exit or a lower that would enter and exit too
often.

I can talk endlessly on this topic and its importance in all
entrepreneurial/business/trade endeavors, but I digress.

> Calling that approach 'simply stupid' and 'simply insane', without having
> considered the real risk and regulatory factors affecting their business is
> silly.

I agree with your prognosis, I do have a bias that I failed to consider. But
unfortunately, if this was the only solution to avoid the paperwork, auditing
and additional responsibilities that would come from acknowledging that the
business practices are similar to those of a financial institution, they are
unfortunately doing something pretty insane and simply stupid. There is no way
this will not drive them to hurt themselves and their users.

Its just the fact that has been proven time and time again, if the US
regulators decided you fit the definition of a financial institution even
loosely then they will deem you and prosecute you on past transgressions
accordingly.

In the eyes of regulators here "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck,
and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck", no exceptions considered.

~~~
unclebucknasty
Again, I don't know why you think you know better than Coinbase what they
should or should not consider. I suppose I am a little biased against this
kind of behavior. I run an online business and we occasionally have
customers/others ranting about what we should or shouldn't do, as if they have
any idea what goes on behind the scenes or what went into our decision-making.

I get your point and they may well have to face regulatory matters when
regulation catches up with Bitcoin in general. But, for now, they seem to have
some guidance as to how they need to structure their processes to sidestep
_current_ regulations and precedent. Anyone who has experience with legal
issues knows that the law is often gray. So, to wade into such waters, firms
must rely on precedent and their good sense to guide them. It is a calculated
risk, wherein the word _reasonable_ becomes important. Whether they should be
classified as an MSB or financial institution will be a finding based on
facts. They need to line up as many facts in their favor as possible and not
keeping funds on deposit or allowing limit orders works in their favor.
Likewise, the timing of the trades matters. If they buy and hold the
commodity, then sell it immediately upon funds clearing, then it is
substantively different from taking the buyer's funds first, then selling. The
former is more akin to selling a commodity they own. The latter is brokering
the transaction with the buyer's funds and is dangerously close to holding
deposits (if only for a brief time). If you think there is no material
difference, you're wrong. In fact, part of the difference is in what you've
been demomizing them for: that is, the fact that Coinbase is taking on the
risk in the former scenario.

So, I don't think you can make the statements you're making so definitively,
nor do I think you should assume that you have thought this through more
carefully than those who are running the company.

~~~
bushido
Some point taken and agreed with to an extent. Would have edited some of my
older comments to declare the biases but was to late to edit; mentioned them
in two comments a couple of hours ago.

Bias declared in [0] and mistake acknowledged in [1].

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6937475](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6937475)
(noted under "edit:")

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6938355](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6938355)

edit:

quick note:

> I don't think you can make the statements you're making so definitively, nor
> do I think you should assume that you have thought this through more
> carefully than those who are running the company.

That statement is flawed under the same premise that the author is calling me
out for, maybe to a greater extent. There is no way for the author to prove or
disprove that I can or cannot make these statements due to the lack of
experience, thought or knowledge within this domain.

~~~
unclebucknasty
> _That statement is flawed under the same premise that the author is calling
> me out for, maybe to a greater extent. There is no way for the author to
> prove or disprove that I can or cannot make these statements_

Not really. My statements were not definitive declarations based on my
opinions, nor were they refutations of demonstrable facts (ex. how Coinbase
works). Yours were. Even if you have knowledge of the domain, it does not mean
that you understand Coinbase's business better than they or are solely and
eminently qualified to predict the future regulatory environment, etc.

BTW, in stating that I cannot "prove or disprove that you can make these
statements", you are asking me to prove a negative. The onus is on you to show
why you know better than Coinbase. So far, you have not done so.

------
sheetjs
The same class of problems (questions regarding account balance, money taken
out but BTC missing, support went dark) happened earlier this year and there
was another front page conversation:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5427985](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5427985)

Sadly, it seems that the key takeaway (the importance of customer support) was
lost upon the Coinbase staff. Based on the last response, its clear that they
have not learned their lesson.

I recommend pulling all money and BTC out of Coinbase before the next crisis.
And I say "next crisis" because there is no indication that steps were taken
to rectify the underlying issues here. For example, as speculated in both
threads, do they need to move off of MongoDB?

~~~
robinhoode
Using MongoDB to process payments is a double facepalm fail.

~~~
mathattack
I'm not an expert, but it seems risky to trust MongoDB for that. Isn't it the
wrong tool for that space?

~~~
robinhoode
MongoDB commits are asynchronous and fail silently by default. This is in
opposition to ordinary SQL databases, which are synchronous and fail noisely
by default.

You can enable that behavior for MongoDB, but then you're just getting
ordinary SQL-style behavior, so why were you using MongoDB in the first place?

~~~
emin-gun-sirer
You mean "ACID transactions" and not SQL databases. Some NoSQL databases, such
as HyperDex, provide ACID transactions.

------
untitledwiz
Well then, third post in week or so, I see HN has become the official support
system for Coinbase ...

~~~
beedogs
An interesting pivot, for sure.

------
aidanlister
Does anyone else get the creepy feeling that this is mgrunin posting to stroke
his own ego?

"That guy must have been one of our extremely high volume VIP users or
something in order for something like that to have happened."

That just does not sound right. And it's not the first time he's tried a
sockpuppet account [1].

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6930297](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6930297)

~~~
permanence
Hah - good guess, but incorrect. Coinbase reached out to me this morning from
this post. They've reconciled a transaction for 10 bitcoins, but there's 2
bitcoins from an old transaction that are still "missing" despite it being
marked as completed, more than a week old and the withdrawal cleared from my
bank.

------
jamestnz
_" I'm not sure how that guy got the CEO of the company to intercede on his
behalf"_

Well, he did so by raising a public fuss about it, that much seems obvious.
The OP of this thread seems (quite reasonably) to be attempting to achieve the
same outcome by the same method.

Taking this OP’s claims at face value, it seems like the support person quoted
was trying to be helpful (or at least empathetic). Unfortunately, on a basic
customer-service level, the response fails spectacularly.

I fail to believe that a company such as coinbase would neglect to have some
mechanism where staffers can escalate support tickets (as is apparently being
claimed). Jeez, it doesn’t even have to go directly to the CEO skipping all
intermediate steps: just bump it up the chain!

That CEO intervention should be necessary to achieve basic customer
satisfaction is crazy to begin with. Either empower the hierarchy to solve
problems, or give them access to someone who can.

OP did you try emailing brian@coinbase.com directly? (I’m not revealing any
information here that a quick googling doesn’t).

~~~
permanence
Thanks for this message. I didn't email Brian directly. Rees from Coinbase
reached out to me. He's fixed one of my problems and I'm waiting on the second
to be resolved.

------
streptomycin
Just a fun anecdote to throw in:

I never bought through Coinbase, but I did sell some coins there recently for
like $7k. They deposited the $7k in my bank account twice, and then a few days
later took the extra $7k back.

So although ultimately it all worked out fine, they do seem to be ridiculously
reckless in their dealings with thousands of dollars. I can't imagine my bank
doing something like that. Made me very wary of dealing with Coinbase in the
future.

~~~
imsofuture
Are you sure that's the case, or could it have been ACH or reporting
weirdness?

~~~
streptomycin
I guess it could be reporting weirdness? Never seen anything like it before,
though, and I've made withdrawals and deposits to my account from many
different sources.

One $7k deposit soon after I made my sale. Another distinct $7k deposit a
couple days later, reflected in my account balance which was now up $14k. And
then a $7k withdrawal a few days after that. Both deposits and the withdrawal
still show up in my transaction history.

~~~
ahlatimer
It happened to me recently, but it was my paycheck. Googling around, it seems
to be something that happens with ACH transactions somewhat rarely, but it
does seem to happen.

------
swombat
"I don't have the ability to forward this to the CEO"?

Fix that even before fixing the reconciliations...

~~~
kapkapkap
Seems safe to say that the customer support person could have surely emailed
the CEO if they really wanted to, according to [1] they have a total of 8
employees as of thier recent funding last week. Also, a 2-second google search
shows that it is brian@coinbase.com

[1] [http://www.vcpost.com/articles/19649/20131212/bitcoin-
focuse...](http://www.vcpost.com/articles/19649/20131212/bitcoin-focused-
coinbase-nabs-25m-andreessen-horowitz-led-round.htm)

~~~
flebron
It just lends more credibility to the "this is just a mgrunin sockpuppet"
hypothesis elsewhere in this thread. No way in an 8 person company, you "don't
have the ability" to talk to one of them.

~~~
d23
I'm guessing it's someone just spreading FUD, for whatever reason. I don't
know that it's mgrunin, but they probably just imagined the company being some
monolith that is actually quite small.

That's also an incredibly unprofessional response that completely throws their
company under the bus, which I have a hard time believing anyone who isn't a
complete moron would do. Seems quite convenient that it fits the poster's
narrative perfectly.

\--

Edit: after doing a bit more digging, mcgrunin has been very respectful toward
the CEO of coinbase after his mishap. So let's not go libeling people
needlessly.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6933058](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6933058)

The rest of his comment history is the same.

~~~
permanence
Surprisingly this is word for word the response I got from customer support.
Rees from Coinbase reached out to me after this post and they've resolved 1 of
the 2 transaction problems. I'm still missing bitcoins.

~~~
sjp
They will get you the bitcoins (I got mine yesterday afternoon after a
promised Friday delivery) the question will be at what price they give them to
you.

------
kjackson2012
Why are people even posting on HN? The easy answer is do an ACH chargeback and
be done with it. Do it quickly as well since the price has plummeted. Don't
even bother with contacting customer support.

~~~
qq66
Could Coinbase be arbitraged this way? Just running ACH chargebacks every time
the Bitcoin price falls before fulfillment?

~~~
eterm
That would be fraud. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to make money if you're
willing to commit fraud.

~~~
wtvanhest
I'm not sure if it is fraud or not. Maybe an attorney can comment, but here is
how I look at it:

Fraud:

(1) a false statement of a material fact,

(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue,

(3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim,

(4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and

(5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.

The attempt at buying coins on coinbase while selling coins outside of
coinbase, then if the coin price falls… If Coinbase doesn’t deliver the coins
according to their TOS and you say to the bank that you want to do an ACH
chargeback due to them not delivering, it doesn’t fit the definition of fraud
in multiple ways:

The statement you would make to the bank would be: “Coinbase did not deliver
the coins based on their TOS so I request my money to be sent back to me via
ACH chargeback and if they do send the coins, I will send them back to
Coinbase”

1) it isn’t a false statement

2) doesn’t apply since it isn’t a false statement

3) not deceiving anyone

4) they are relying on it, but it isn’t false

5) no one is injured since Coinbase waited to fulfill the transaction, they
can just resell the coins at the current market price, assuming they are able
to actually sell coins.

~~~
imsofuture
It's both fraud, and unethical.

~~~
wtvanhest
It may be unethical, I don't make that judgement, but it definitely doesn't
match the legal definition of fraud.

~~~
imsofuture
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_faith_(law)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_faith_\(law\))

------
ziko
Hi, <name> from Coinbase here. Sorry for the delay on that - definitely not
the customer experience we are striving for.

<some phone shit right here>

Edit: <we actually did our job and made it work. we also gave you 0.01% on
top!>

------
Saus
The problem what I have is 'fairness' (not just Coinbase, mostly all companies
with customer service).

OP tried to solve it without making a fuss, without causing trouble for
CoinBase but they couldn't help him and they didn't want to help him. Now he
is creating negative press (exactly what you don't want) and see the response
from last night. CEO probably comes in and saves the day.

The problem is that the people who 'behave' will get shafted, and those who
seek 'social media' will get a prompt resolution.

That is a disappointing trend that with Twitter/Facebook only became worse
(before those it was mostly threatening with consumer advocate programs on
TV). Try it yourself, send an e-mail and a tweet to a company. E-mail gets a
reply within 48h, twitter within 1h. Companies are creating their own monster
this way....

------
brandon272
Assuming this post is legitimate, what kind of organization of that size (an
article published today indicates that there are 8 employees!) has a hierarchy
and culture where if an individual working in a customer support role sees
something wrong they have no way of communicating with the CEO?

Scary, if true.

~~~
permanence
I don't know how else to prove this is legitimate. Not that I feel I have to.

Rees from Coinbase reached out to me this morning and we've resolved one of
the two issues. I'm still missing bitcoins from my account and will update
this when it's resolved.

------
codebolt
This is exactly why I'm not buying bitcoins in the current dip. Counterparty
risk on the exchanges.

[http://fc13.ifca.ai/proc/1-2.pdf](http://fc13.ifca.ai/proc/1-2.pdf)

------
permanence
UPDATE: I've been in touch with Coinbase support and they've corrected the
larger of the two transactions in question. I'm still waiting on the second
transaction to be fixed. I'm still missing some bitcoins from transactions
that are well beyond complete (more than a week old, ACH withdrawal completed
and marked as complete in coinbase).

------
rdxm
Ever wonder why there are not 100 different exchanges out there providing
services to the equities/options/bond markets??? Simple, it's fairly costly
and complicated to 1) meet regulatory requirements, 2) achieve a level of
liquidity/transaction volume to make the exchange viable, and 3) take business
away from the incumbents...

moreover, as soon as you attach the word 'exchange' to your service you
immediately set an expectation in the consumers mind that you will provide a
similar level of service/liquidity as that which they would receive if they
were working with a _real_ exchange operator.

coinbase currently lists a team which has _zero_ experience in the exchange
operations world. the closest they come is a guy who did some foreign exchange
trading at GS.

net-net they have a _looooooong_ way to go to get to being a viable exchange
in the traditional sense of the word. and that's before you get to the whole
topic of whether or not bitcoin is really something that will be a viable
exchange model asset. that has yet to be tested outside of a very, very small
base (relatively) of ecosystem participants..

------
patrickg_zill
Wow, that is pretty surprising.

First thing in support is, YOU are the face of the company as far as the
person you are in contact with, can see.

Second thing is, if you don't know, don't guess; tell them you will check into
X and get back to them about it.

Third, empathize with the person - wouldn't you be worried over the
disposition of $10K if you took it out of your bank account and then had
problems getting what you ordered?

~~~
pbreit
While I'm inclined to believe the OP, the text posted does set of my spidey
sense.

~~~
permanence
Word for word the response I received from customer support. Another customer
support person, Rees, reached out to me this morning and we've resolved 1 of 2
issues.

------
sergiotapia
Unfortunately this is a trend for Coinbase:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/CoinBase/comments/1t6326/customer_su...](http://www.reddit.com/r/CoinBase/comments/1t6326/customer_support_ignores_my_tickets_for_a_month/)

Just don't use them and protect your hard earned money.

------
barmstrong
Coinbase founder here. We'll reach out via email to discuss the details of
this case with you.

~~~
sjp
can you perhaps tell us if everyone - even those with smaller amounts - will
be receiving the same consideration? ie should we also be stomping our feet or
is it just a matter of patience before you address smaller mistakes?

------
p4vl1n
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6929705](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6929705)

------
simonebrunozzi
I have a question that is related to how Coinbase deals with situations like
the one on this thread: I have a Coinbase account, and I am verified with a
Credit Card. This means that I can instantly buy bitcoins. What happens if
they fail to get the money from my bank account 2-3 days later? Would they
charge my credit card instead?

------
jnardiello
Seems like Coinbase wasn't able to create a viable and sustainable process. To
me, they will just fail as long as their processes become scalable. Surely i
won't deal with them anytime soon :)

------
permanence
UPDATE 2: Still waiting to receive two missing bitcoins that were purchased on
December 11 and promised delivery for December 17. I mentioned the issue to
them days ago and it's still hasn't even been acknowledged. Sent them a
message this morning and again right now.

Coinbase has been kind enough to resolve the issue with 10 bitcoins being
delivered nearly a week late. But I'm not sure why 2 bitcoins disappeared from
my account and they have yet to acknowledge the issue.

------
grimaceindex
To the OP: if Coinbase provides terrible customer service but you still
publicly declare you're a "huge fan", what incentive is there for them to
change?

~~~
Einstalbert
Isn't the incentive to show them that you're still willing to work with them
in the future so long as they get their crap together? I'm honestly not
impressed with this stuff happening to people, even as a mistake, but at the
same time I don't see people writing off entire companies that have otherwise
acted in good faith.

Of course, if it happens to many more people, you can only do so much with so
little.

------
juanbyrge
LOL it seems that Coinbase has a lot of junior developers that are too
superior for unit tests . Try the magic the gathering site?

------
colanderman
1\. Chargeback.

2\. Better Business Bureau.

3\. Federal Trade Commission.

4\. Lawyer/lawsuit.

All of these are better options than whining on some Internet forum.

~~~
lisper
1\. You can't chargeback a completed ACH withdrawal. (It is possible to revert
an ACH transaction, but that generally happens only if the original
transaction was unauthorized, which is not the case here. ACH/debit
transactions do not have the same level of consumer protections as credit card
transactions. That's why Coinbase doesn't accept credit cards.)

2\. The BBB is a corporate shill.

3\. Rotsa ruck.

4\. Will cost more than the amount lost, and legal fees are rarely
recoverable.

~~~
colanderman
2\. Shill or not, I've gotten results via them on multiple occasions.

4\. I don't believe this. You're basically telling me if I pay for a car from
a dealership, and they fail to deliver, that I or a lawyer can't sic law
enforcement on them.

~~~
lisper
> You're basically telling me if I pay for a car from a dealership, and they
> fail to deliver, that I or a lawyer can't sic law enforcement on them.

No, you are over-extrapolating what I said. Cars and BTC are not comparable.

Buying a car is a business model that everyone understands. There are
governmental regulations in place to track every vehicle, so claims about cars
being delivered or not are easy to verify or refute. So if a dealership fails
to deliver a car that you paid for you most likely won't even have to sue
them, they'll just give you a refund, because if you did sue them there are
well-established processes for determining the facts of the case, and clear
rules about a dealership's obligations to deliver.

BTC is a completely different situation. There are no government regulations,
no rules, no precedents. To prevail, you will have to prove in court that
coinbase failed to deliver. You will have to prove this to a jury of people
who barely understand how to use an iPad. How do you do this? Consider the
possibility that the OP is not telling the truth, but wants to generate bad PR
for coinbase in support of some ulterior motive. How could the OP prove that
he's telling the truth? It's not so easy, even when you're addressing an
audience that actually understands how BTC works.

Also, have you actually read the coinbase TOS? (I haven't.) Do they say that
BTC purchased will be available by a certain deadline? I'd be really
surprised. If no deadline is specified, none is implied. So all coinbase has
to do to get the lawsuit dismissed is cough up 10BTC. If push came to shove,
that is the best outcome you could hope for, and you'd still be out your legal
fees.

~~~
daurnimator
the blockchain is public evidence, and should be admissible in court.

~~~
manicbovine
If it's ever used in court, it'll be construed as a hacker or terrorist tool
by some barely literate computer forensic "expert".

~~~
bushido
Unfortunately you give the system too little credit. In Aug 2013 a Federal
judge recognized bitcoin as akin to a currency (stores value, can be used for
exchange of goods). It also opened the doors to allow SEC to pursue these
cases[0].

Granted it was for a ponzi scheme.

[0] [http://rt.com/usa/bitcoin-sec-shavers-
texas-231/](http://rt.com/usa/bitcoin-sec-shavers-texas-231/)

------
jackgavigan
Before the $25m round that was just announced, CoinBase had raised $6.71m.

What have they spent that money on?

~~~
PeterisP
It's a tiny amount of money for a financial services company - because they
need money not for expenses & salaries (as a software company), but as a pure
instrument in their everyday transactions. I can easily imagine Coinbase
needing ten times more working capital than that simply to function properly
(i.e., not as they seem to function now).

~~~
samastur
I would love it if you could elaborate on this. Since most exchanges don't do
anything before they received money from buyer, what would they need the money
for?

~~~
k-mcgrady
The huge fluctuations in the price of BitCoin probably cause problems. Taking
an order, locking the price in, and waiting a few days for the transfer gives
BitCoin time to drastically change in value.

~~~
yebyen
Presumably you had the opportunity to buy the coin at the price you offered
when you offered it. I am a small potato with no customers. I bid on an
auction a few days ago for more BTC than I had. Why?

Well, at the time, I hadn't planned to make up the difference at Coinbase, but
that was my first plan. The due date of the payment would have been after the
closing date of Coinbase transactions on that date. I could probably still buy
more coins before they were due, if I was still winning the auction for 6BTC.

But the real plan? SatoshiDice. I'm not talking double, I had most of the BTC
needed for my bid, and the difference between what I had bid and the next
bidder (split the difference) was even smaller.

So, if I just need to win 0.9BTC, it's pretty easy to do that at SatoshiDice
with 4.5BTC bankroll. In fact I won 0.7BTC yesterday, after someone outbid me.
I could have made it up in cash at Coinbase, but then there would be no
Christmas.

This however is a small auction for another speculative asset between friends.
I am not a financial services company! I can't imagine the size of the
spreadsheet required to predict whether Coinbase will be able to meet all of
its obligations to every customer at each point in time given the possibility
of price fluctuations. Certainly a harder problem than "can I maybe win 0.9 at
SatoshiDice."

But certainly also, within striking distance of solvable.

------
Tarang
I think Coinbase ought to be aware we know their customer service needs work &
when stuff comes on HN and it looks bad for them its just damage control to
give a false impression of competence when they respond.

------
andersthue
Did anyone say Ponzi Scheme ?

~~~
BlackDeath3
Plenty of people say "Ponzi Scheme". Many of them don't know anything about
Bitcoin (or Ponzi Schemes).

------
kaonashi
"There's a sucker born every minute" \- P.T. Barnum

------
pbreit
You posted here at pretty much the exact wrong time (11:30pm PT) but I would
still be surprised if you don't eventually get taken care of (assuming a legit
situation).

------
mattmaroon
Can we make a new rule? HN is not an end run around companies' bad customer
support (even YC ones). We could probably fill this site with these pretty
easily.

~~~
RokStdy
Matt, I think these posts are valuable. The readers of HN seem to be exactly
the type of people who might be early adopters of Coinbase. It's helpful for
those people to know how the service works from a customer's perspective.

Then you also have the benefit from the entrepreneurial side. These posts can
serve as a cautionary tale to other would be founders as how _not_ to do
customer service.

I think where this crosses the line from inane bitching to useful discourse is
the gravity of these issues. It's not like these people are posting with
complaints about the page layout of the company or <insert minor nitpick
here>. The issue is with the core function of the company, and that's work
discussion.

Just my $0.02.

------
permanence
UPDATE 3: Still missing bitcoins purchased on December 11. No acknowledgment
of missing bitcoins yet from customer support or Brian.

------
steeve
They are 8 people. He can surely push through.

------
permanence
Final Update: I've finally got my missing bitcoins from Coinbase. I'm squared
up. Thanks for responding Counbase.

------
j_s
Sounds like it's time to start the process of reversing a fraudulent ACH
transaction.

------
brentm
That is one of the worst responses from a customer service agent I've ever
seen.

------
simias
HN is not a Coinbase support group. There must be better ways to deal with
this.

~~~
booruguru
I think losing 10k through a computer glitch is something worth talking
about...especially since it's becoming a trend.

------
tlongren
Glad I don't use online bitcoin wallets.

------
learningram
Bitcoin news...

I have no interest in Bitcoins. Is someone gaming HN ?

~~~
dragontamer
In this case, Coinbase is a YCombinator company. Even if you aren't interested
in BTC, Coinbase and its business dealings are very much a good topic of
conversation on these forums.

