
Pissing Away Our Money With Google Display Ads - k1w1
http://blog.aha.io/?p=2731
======
AJ007
When I saw the title I thought, "oh another article by someone who has no idea
what they are doing complaining about advertising on X platform not working
and being a waste of money.

Except I have been seeing the same thing.

Google has all of the data. They know that publisher X's inventory performs at
1/100th (or less) of the competitions. They should be smart priced
accordingly, at about a penny per click.

It was initially shocking. I have used a lot of ad platform in the past
(nearly) decade and Google was the _only_ one that consistently delivered high
quality traffic that was obviously real people.

Here are a few other really dirty tricks Google will play on you:

#1 If you are selling ads from the publishing side, Google will sell you your
own ads by running ads on your site unless you explicitly exclude your site
from every ad campaign.

#2 Engagement ads. These are video ads that play on a mouse over. They report
a mouse over as a "click."

------
tezmc
Similar to this, I noticed a pretty crappy thing Google are doing on Youtube
on the ipad last night. I did a youtube search and went to tap the first
result only to have it replaced with an ad just before I clicked it, taking me
through to some ad.

I experimented with this a couple of times, both times I did a search, and
about 0.5-1 second after the page loaded the first search result was shifted
down and its position taken by an ad link that looked the same as a search
result.

~~~
spyder
Similar annoying thing with video pre-roll ads on Youtube: I'm used to pausing
videos by clicking on them but when the video is an ad then it opens the link
of the ad instead of pausing the video.

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DavidWanjiru
I think google do sloppy shit whenever the "sloppiness" suits them. Take app
permissions in the play store as an example; you mean to say google are so
concerned by me installing unvetted apps that to do so, I have to click some
check box somewhere in the settings, YET do not allow me to set app
permissions on an app by app basis? That is downright sloppy, only it isn't
really sloppiness, it's a state of affairs that one way or another suits their
needs. Coz think about it: even after they've seen plenty of apps asking for
permissions that are none of their business, apps that they've approved seeing
as they're on the app store, they still don't change their permissions policy.
I call that intentional slopiness.

~~~
danudey
I always thought it was really cool that apps had to request permissions up-
front; that said, I much prefer the iOS approach of 'ask when it becomes
necessary, and only then'.

~~~
frandroid
If would only be cool if you could disable these permissions; as it is,
they're not asking you if you want to grant the permissions, they're just
warning you in the ways in which the app will violate your privacy. Thanks,
but that's not enough.

(Unless you run Xprivacy or Cyanogenmod's Privacy Guard, etc.)

------
nekitamo
We had a similar problem with mobile search ads. The vast majority of clicks
we got were misclicks, which is very painful when you're bidding $5+ click. We
fixed the issue by putting a -90% bid on mobile ads. Now once every few months
someone from Google calls us and tries to convince us to remove that -90% bid,
assuring us the traffic is good and will convert. Pretty sleazy.

~~~
k1w1
In our account penalizing the bid for mobile ads didn't help because it looks
like Google treats 'mobile' and 'tablets' separately. So we prevented ads on
phones, but you can't penalize the bid for tablets so that doesn't work to
prevent games on iPads.

The Google support person told me they can't tell the difference between
tablets and desktops, but I don't believe that for a second. Our own analytics
clearly showed the user-agent for all of the visitors was for tablets and not
desktops.

~~~
ariwilson
Isn't it also the case that you can restrict your ads to Google search only
which should avoid these in app ads? Or are you looking for placements on the
display network as well (or only)?

~~~
jcampbell1
This only applies to the display network. If you restrict to Search, you don't
have to worry about game banners, or banner ads at all.

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jscheel
Everything in adwords seems designed to dump more money into google than you
want to. Ads going to wrong places, "enhanced" campaigns that make it
impossible to ignore mobile and tablet traffic, questionable quality score
rating, etc. I've had my fill of it. Better to hire a firm to let them handle
the mess.

~~~
sheetjs
It's similarly frustrating on the other end, where google will sometimes show
adult ads even when you tell them not to show that content on your sites

~~~
jscheel
Blugh, that would be unacceptable. I'm guessing the advertisers are doing some
shady crap to get past the filters, but still...

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halisaurus
I come from the other side of the glass. My toddlers have iPads and constantly
tap ads that are usually larger than real, in-app actions. Often the ads are
interstitial between two game screens, or float next to the content they are
interested in. Besides being frustrating for the kids, I have to be vigilant
on the content of the ads they're seeing. From my experience, the ads are not
always appropriate for kids. I really wish Apple would offer a "No Ads in Kids
Apps" policy.

~~~
AJ007
This could be a reasonable class action lawsuit: both against advertisers
collecting personal information from children (whether they intended to or
not) and from platforms serving inappropriate ads to children.

~~~
dreamfactory2
very stringent rules around children's data in europe I believe

~~~
watwut
I think that Europe does not have class action suits. I'm not 100% sure.
Anyway, USA has special laws around collecting and storing data of kids under
13 years old.

That is primary reason why facebook like companies tos excludes them. It is
safe to assume that ad companies do not follow requirements written in these
laws.

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dperfect
It's been a little while since I've used it, but doesn't Google let you do
placement optimization based on meaningful conversions or other user-defined
goals?

It sounds like the problem here was just Google's ad placement optimization
looking for CTR alone as opposed to something that means more for Aha! (e.g.,
clicking past the landing page). In that case, the solution isn't so much in
excluding certain platforms as much as optimizing for the right goals.

Unless your product/service really has no target audience among people who
happen to use mobile or play games, excluding mobile/games with a blanket
exclusion _may_ be the wrong choice. Personally, I'd rather target whoever
seems to be converting most in terms of things my business cares about rather
than drawing arbitrary lines for which platforms see my ads.

~~~
ScottWhigham
Yes, that's true. When you set up the campaign/ad group, you can choose to
optimize for clicks, or optimize for conversions, and at least one other
optimization. I burned through a few grand choosing optimize for clicks
myself...

------
hagbardgroup
The way to avoid wasting money like this is to ramp up your spending gradually
using what's called 'discovery campaigns.' This is a risk management method
that helps you to avoid the shittiest publishers (which is almost all of
them). If you had done this you could have avoided this unhappy incident.

You can also bypass discovery campaigns by just running managed placements,
which means whitelisting certain publishers only.

Google does a disservice to its customers by making it seem like 'anyone' who
can paste an image into its tool can advertise effectively. Technically, yes,
it's so easy that even a greedy pigeon with a corporate credit card can do it.

Practically, in many if not most verticals, it takes reading at least a couple
textbooks worth of material to be effective, plus creative experience.

Google is not being shady in this instance. The only shady thing that it is
doing is using its marketing to delude people with large enough budgets to
hurt themselves into managing their own campaigns.

Another issue highlighted in this post that many professional advertisers
complain about is that over the last few years, Google has tried to frogmarch
desktop advertisers into tablet/mobile advertising, whereas it requires more
finesse and planning to tailor campaigns to those devices than most clients
are interested in using.

~~~
shostack
As a "professional advertiser" myself with a deep background in search this is
spot on.

Also, people don't poke around enough in the help files or in the settings for
their targeting to see that there are easy ways to avoid this from the start.

For example, Site Category Exclusions would be a good start, although the
specific negatives they mention are good to note as well since I'm not sure
the category exclusions will catch everything.

~~~
hagbardgroup
Thanks!

Yup. As a quasi-professional advertiser with a medium-depth background in
search, I'm glad to hear that I'm on the correct track.

------
johnrob
The architecture of the digital ad industry was created with computers in
mind; it was only ported to touchscreens out of convenience. You just can't
assume clicks imply intent on such inaccurate devices.

~~~
dperfect
So don't optimize your campaigns simply for clicks.

A lot of people here are complaining that Google is doing something "shady" by
making ads available to mobile platforms (mobile ads are here to stay
regardless of how people feel about them - and that's not Google's fault) and
optimizing by default for clicks (there's not much else that would be better
as a default).

If it's not just clicks you want, then optimize for whatever you care about -
conversions, sales, whatever. Mobile has simply made that distinction more
clear than before.

~~~
AJ007
The complaint originates from Google preventing advertisers from separating
desktop & tablet bids. It is not that Google made ads available for mobile
platforms but that they force you to purchase them. Kind of like if you want
HBO.

~~~
dperfect
Again, if you've set up your campaign to optimize for what you really want to
see (not just clicks), then why would you even need to care about desktop vs
tablets? There are more and more devices every day that blur the line between
desktop and tablet, so it's really not _that_ useful of a distinction to make.

What about desktops with touchscreens? People are probably just as likely to
click your ad by mistake there as on a tablet. The problem isn't the platform
or the method of user input. The problem is how your campaign is being
optimized.

~~~
SyneRyder
You can't optimize your ads for conversions until you've already had a minimum
number of conversions (I think 30 per month?). Google can still run up
hundreds of dollars of paid clicks that will never result in conversions
before then (and mobile apps for kids are one way to do that).

As for desktop vs tablet, some people might be advertising a tablet-only app
or a desktop-only app. In that case it's best to advertise on the device
people can use it on, to streamline the download/purchase.

~~~
dperfect
That's true. Still doesn't mean you should optimize for CTR when you're really
interested in conversions. But I do see your point that in some cases -
especially when starting a new campaign on a tight budget, it would be useful
to manually target the campaign with more precision (including tablets vs
desktop control and more obvious control for apps). Ideally, Google would
allow people to start optimizing for conversions from the beginning, but I
guess their algorithms have to start with something (clicks being the most
abundant form of response data).

As for the desktop-only or tablet-only app, I'd still rather let that work
itself out with conversion optimization (given that download conversions can
be tracked effectively) rather than assuming my conversions are going to come
through a certain channel. It comes down to the idea of making marketing
decisions based on real data rather than what we're "sure" is best.

It just sounds like many people don't bother setting up conversion
optimization out of ignorance - they think Google is somehow doing this
app/game placement just to try and steal people's money, when really it's just
a natural consequence of the CTR optimization. In the case of Aha!, it appears
that most of the "wasted" money was spent before even realizing what was going
on - and once they did figure it out, they apparently found the way exclude
mobile apps without too much trouble (though I'd agree Google _should_ make it
easier).

~~~
SyneRyder
Oh definitely, if you have the option to optimize for conversions, you should
definitely try it. From memory that was a key factor in patio11 finding
success with Bingo Card Creator.

That said, if your conversion rate is the typical "1% of trial users buy / x%
of visitors download", it can take a long time to optimize. And if you try to
use trial signups / downloads as a proxy conversion for sales, you can end up
optimizing for the wrong thing (eg optimizing for freeloaders / kick the
tyres, not buyers).

Curious to hear if Aha!'s mobile app exclusion method actually works - I tried
a similar exclusion and it didn't work for me, I still play mobile app whack-
a-mole. Google called me when I stopped my ads & told me that entering a -300%
bid for mobile was a hack from engineering that would stop showing all ads on
tablets, but the interface wouldn't accept anything more than -100% (which I
already had).

------
k1w1
Are there any SaaS apps that people recommend for managing online advertising?

The Google ads UI is overly complex for a typical small company, and that
obfuscates what it really going on with your ads. In addition I would love to
see a UI that automatically handled experimentation and A/B testing with
display ads (by automatically generating the ad images based on set of
possible captions and background images).

~~~
oebs
Sure, there are plenty offerings, for example: Adobe AdLens, Adspert, Kenshoo,
Marin Software, Wordstream.

~~~
k1w1
Thanks for the suggestions. None of these are really what I had in mind - a
tool that hides the complexities of campaign management and optimization.
Where is the Zendesk of advertising?

I had a look at each of the websites. Wordstream is the only one that has any
information on pricing. Adspert appears to be on target, but the pricing
information just says "Adspert is affordable for every business". It looks
like Adobe AdLens doesn't exist any more. A google search shows ads - but they
just lead to a whitepaper signup.

~~~
jaredmck
Your adwords rep will hide the complexities if you like - be prepared to bleed
money all over the place though - in many simple, complex and esoteric ways.

Most of those "no price listed" tools run somewhere between 5-15% of ad spend.
Many times with high minimums. I see no reason to choose one from scratch.

Either learn adwords (really learn it, practice, test, do it right) or hire
someone who knows what they're doing (and beware of all those who think they
do but don't...)

Google is super optimized to get into your wallet so either play ball or stay
the hell out of the path of the greatest money machine ever created as it
rakes in cash all the way til it can't monopolize more.

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Barraketh
You are unhappy with the results because you're optimizing towards clicks. You
should always optimize towards whatever is important to you. So if you would
like people to click through to a specific page, define that to be a
conversion and then optimize towards conversions. Optimizing to clicks is not
great even if you exclude mobile devices - it's just not what you want.

~~~
balls187
Do you have any resources that talk about how to optimize for conversions?

~~~
dennisgorelik
In AdWords it's under Tools - Conversions

You have to setup conversion, and insert corresponding javascript into your
conversion page.

Than make your AdWords campaigns to focus on conversions instead of clicks.

~~~
Barraketh
This, if you would like to do it yourself. However, the display advertising
space is not currently as turnkey as search advertising, so in most cases
you're better off handing off the trafficking of the campaign to an ad
network. Quantcast and RocketFuel are two that focus specifically on
delivering conversions, and both consistently beat Google on CPA (cost per
action). Disclaimer: I currently work at Quantcast.

------
babs474
This problem extends to more than just kids playing around on mobile games.

Here is a good presentation from the quantcast guys about the "natural born
clicker" problem. The people clicking on your display ad are probably anything
but actual potential customers.

Clicks is just an easy holdover metric from the paid search side of digital
advertising. It doesn't make sense in the context of early funnel ads. You
need to measure the effect your display ads are having on your purchasing
endpoints. Which is what the whole cross channel attribution industry is
about.

[1][http://www.slideshare.net/hardnoyz/display-ad-clickers-
are-n...](http://www.slideshare.net/hardnoyz/display-ad-clickers-are-not-your-
customers)

------
punjabisingh
Some of the mobile games definitely use questionable ways to present the ads.
If anyone has ever played Subway Surfer (on Android), they can probably
remember the countless amount of times one may accidentally click on the ads.
On top of that, the ads load in such funny ways at times that it is hard to
avoid clicking the ad.

As an advertiser and publisher myself, I feel bad for the people spending
money on advertising in that game, because the 99% of the time that I have
clicked on an ad in that game is because it was a mistake.

------
DanBlake
Facebook is worse. If you use FB promoted/boosted posts you can not untarget
mobile/tablets, which especially sucks if your ads are for desktop centric
products.

Anyways- Is there a easy way on adwords to ONLY target desktop users? No
tablets, no smartphones, no dumbphones.

~~~
jksmith
Post goes through some detail on that.

------
captainmuon
I wonder if you can see as an advertiser which keyword caused your ad to be
shown in a particular app? That would be pretty interesting as it would let
you weed out ambiguous keywords (I don't know.. Memory the game vs memory as
in RAM), and see real gaming of keywords (like a Flappy Bird clone with
"Business", "Laywer" or "Mesothelioma" keywords).

------
tyd
I had the same issue a few weeks ago. All my ads were shown to drawing apps
for kids :(

------
Theodores
Not being funny, but how many of us read the article, followed the link to
Aha!, scrolled down to the bottom and went straight back to HN? Maybe the
product just does not sell too well on an ad.

------
angmarsbane
Always always exclude adsenseformobileapps.com in a display campaign. It's
recommended for a remarketing campaign as well.

PPC #201

------
dudus
I bet this was a big Aha! moment

~~~
k1w1
The Aha! moment didn't come until I called Google and the support person
pointed out that the placement screen wouldn't show data for today. Until that
point we spent a few days scratching our heads wondering what could account
for the weird traffic patterns.

We have really detailed web analytics and the visitor patterns were just so
unlike what we normally see. Especially the fact that the same visitor (almost
always from an iPad) would come back multiple times with about 10 hours
between visits. I am guessing that Google doesn't show the same ad to a user
for some time after there has been a click which explains the 10 hours. But we
were mystified why people who never left the landing page would click an ad
again and again. Once we realized it was kids playing games it became obvious.
Many times I have had to rescue my kids who accidentally clicked on an ad
while playing an iPad game and gotten lost in some website.

~~~
akosner
What keywords did you use? Curious to see how unrelated games might have been
related to your keywords.

~~~
k1w1
Aha! is a tool for product managers to plan a roadmap, so keywords were
related to "product management", "visual roadmap", etc. I am not sure how
keywords match a game like Solitaire but my guess is that the game somehow
contains a dictionary that they pass to google when ads are being chosen. Or
perhaps the description of the game is keyword stuffed?

~~~
akosner
Follow up post here:
[http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2014/04/04/aha-
mom...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2014/04/04/aha-moment-the-
devious-world-of-free-games-and-paid-google-display-ads/)

------
al2o3cr
Shorter article: "We have no idea how to operate the machine we're dumping
cash into! Clearly this is the fault of the manufacturer!"

