
KaiOS - brainless
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaiOS
======
5trokerac3
> As of February 2018, KaiOS Technologies has partnered with Airfind,
> Facebook, Google, Twitter...

The Nokia KaiOS devices come with built in Google services, which instantly
disqualify them for me. I don't trust that information from those phones
aren't being seeded to Google.

~~~
throwre434234
Can't upvote this enough.

There is already very little accountability or awareness about what Google
Services do behind the scenes. You make a call, your phone connects to
1e100.net; you change some settings, your phone connects to 1e100.net. It's
insane that no one seems to be paying attention to any of these.

~~~
shifto
Where did you get this from? I just checked my local DNS server and my home
devices have never attempted to connect to this domain even though I have
quite a few android devices.

~~~
antsar
It's an internal domain. The user-facing stuff uses vanity domains (google,
youtube, etc) but the servers' "true" hostnames reside in 1e100.net.

[https://support.google.com/faqs/answer/174717?hl=en](https://support.google.com/faqs/answer/174717?hl=en)

For example, here's the IP I get for "google.com":

    
    
        $ dig google.com +short
        172.217.10.238
    

A reverse lookup on that IP resolves to...

    
    
        $ dig -x 172.217.10.238 +short
        lga25s59-in-f14.1e100.net.
    

So, you're most certainly connecting to things in that domain, which is just a
roundabout way of saying you're connecting to some Google property.

------
postcynical
I used the Nokia 8110 with KaiOS as a digital detox phone during holidays. It
has working email, whats app, google map, hotspot. It has enough features to
"survive" and answer or triage the occasional fires from work. And it is
unusable enough that i don't use it for non important stuff (chatting,
browsing, etc). Ironically its bad UI/UX is it's main selling point.

~~~
srbby
And that's exactly detoxing you from what? I mean it's got email, whatsapp, a
browser, facebook probably... so what's the point?

~~~
truculent
you _can_ do these things, but there's enough friction that you won't do it
unless you have a good reason

------
the_duke
The interesting takeaway here is: maybe Mozilla gave up on Firefox OS too
early?

It apparently found a market after all, albeit as a fork.

~~~
srbby
Mozilla took the slowest HTML rendering engine there is and created a whole OS
using it. Then they proceeded to run it on the worst mobile hardware there was
at the time.

Then competent engineers forked it into KaiOS and it became a success.

~~~
BrendanEich
Same engineers in notable cases, e.g., Fabrice Desre. Also same engine. This
refutes your first sentence above.

------
Abishek_Muthian
It's remarkable what KaiOS has achieved when the behemoths like Microsoft,
Blackberry who tried to become the 3rd player in the smartphone OS wars
failed. KaiOS is now holds the 2nd position in India.

Cyanogenmod had a slim chance to pull off what KaiOS did, as it took a similar
first approach but failed miserably with its exclusivity agreement with two
companies (OnePlus & Micromax)!

But the growth of KaiOS came from Reliance Jio telecom in India, which sold
for ~20 USD returnable deposit, cheap LTE data, upgradable to newer models and
of course unlimited voice calls. The feature set in Jio Phone may not be
comparable to even decade old android, but the target population were getting
their first Internet/computing device.

Reliance Jio has invested in KaiOS with 16% stake, KaiOS probably had no
choice. WhatsApp was 'THE' most 'missed' app on JioPhone 1 which was
eventually rectified in the future iterations. Reliance likely has an
exclusivity with WhatsApp on that, since WhatsApp doesn't seem to be available
on KaiOS in other regions.

Reliance Jio might access developing market outside India in the future,
bringing with itself the JioPhone and the KaiOS.

~~~
justicezyx
You miss the point, Kaios would be killed in any situation if it were part of
Microsoft or Blackberry or Google. Their appetite has no minor project like
this...

~~~
Abishek_Muthian
I didn't suggest it was/wasn't part of Microsoft or BB, I suggested it pulled
of something which they didn't; Google was not even in that statement.

Even Firefox itself wouldn't have been able to pull this off because it's FSF
philosophy would have been in conflict with exclusivity agreements which KaiOS
offers to the carriers & also it being a closed source.

Although FSF supporter in me wishes FireFoxOS had survived even at enthusiast
level like Ubuntu Touch does.

------
bArray
Can we just build phones with a basic x86/AMD64 architecture and a small BIOS
so we can load any OS onto them easily from a micro SD? I recently tried to
get Halium boot running for my mobile, it's nigh on impossible if it's more
than a few years old. (This was in an attempt to load Ubuntu OS onto it.)

Why does it have to be this difficult to try a different OS, when loading an
OS onto a new laptop is so relatively easy? It shouldn't be so difficult to
get basic functionality up and running.

~~~
inawarminister
AFAIK PinePhone first edition will run like this. A MVP OS in NAND and in-
development Linux Mobile distros (UBPorts, Plasma Mobile, KaiOS et al) running
directly from MicroSD

~~~
bArray
They have a guaranteed customer if this is the case. PineTime also makes me
quite excited.

------
filmgirlcw
I imported the 8110 4G from Singapore or Vietnam (got it off eBay) last year
for like $80 US. The 4G doesn't work on most US bands so it's basically just a
wi-fi device, but it was a fun thing to buy to try to play/hack around with. I
had visions of using it as a controller of sorts for some IoT/smart home
stuff, but haven't done much with it.

KaiOS is interesting, but from a pure usability POV, going back to T9 is
terrible. Simple acts of logging into services is genuinely painful -- which
makes it a fun toy but absolutely not anything I would use for anything other
than hacking/ROMs/potential IoT stuff.

I did take the 8110 4G to Europe/Asia this year to use as a cheap way to get a
hotspot overseas (eSIM on iOS for dual-SIM stuff was just rolling out and
since I often still need to use my actual phone number, I have to pay the $10
a day for .5GB of data from Verizon plus whatever the pay as you go SIM
costs.). With this, I just bought SIM cards with big data plans and used it as
a hotspot with my laptop/iPad/iPhone)

------
mikece
While I really like the idea of a feature phone that can has some smarts, can
function as a WiFi hotspot, and has battery life to allow charging only once a
week, if there's no ability to write apps that are compiled to binary code
then I have to wonder how much the JavaScript VM powering aps is going to
drain the battery compared to an app that was written in C/C++.

~~~
celliopia
Given the target devices for KaiOS, wouldn't AOT compiled apps have the
problem of not being sure which CPU will be supported? It's probably not as
big of an issue today but at the inexpensive, low-power side of the spectrum
there might be a diversity of CPUs within a year or two... is KaiOS going to
host compiler services in the cloud to dynamically compile apps for the myriad
possible CPUs out there? While consuming more battery, using JavaScript to
power the apps not only lowers the barrier to entry for app developers but
creates a common target for all hardware vendors to support. That said, I do
like the idea of these devices having the ability to run native code as that
would get more like from the battery.

~~~
CoolGuySteve
Probably more like what happened on Symbian where the market fragmented but
nobody cared as most apps weren’t very compelling.

------
cferr
I have an Alcatel GO Flip stuck on KaiOS 1.0. It's terrible. I have to reboot
the phone at least once a day or it slows down to the point where the UI
doesn't respond to certain events, such as initiating a call.

The UI and functionality would be nice if not for the bugs. Maybe they have
fixed a bunch of them in later releases, but my provider isn't providing
updates.

~~~
q845712
I recently got the same phone! Mine doesn't crash, but what amazes me is how
slow it is -- The flip phone(s) from circa '05-'08 that I had been using
weren't fast, but this Alcatel / KaiOS feels like it's running an interpreter
in a virtual machine and waiting for network roundtrips on every keystroke ...
I mean i'm exaggerating but the lag for all my actions is a real bummer.

------
daviddaviddavid
Not a KaiOS user, but I am a daily flip-phone user on a Kyocera DuraXTP
running Brew MP. In my flip-phone dreams, the features I would love out of an
OS would be:

    
    
      * Obviously, calling/texting.
      * A fast, minimal app that served as a phone book.
      * GPS with voice assistant.
      * An Uber or Lyft app.
      * That's it.
    

In short, the things that are very useful in an emergency-type situation.

I can't imagine there are that may others like me, but the lack of GPS and
ride-hailing are the two things that occasionally make me consider going back
to having a smartphone.

~~~
dlivingston
Phones like this already exist. See, for example, The Light Phone:
[https://www.thelightphone.com](https://www.thelightphone.com)

------
projektfu
KaiOS supports WhatsApp in India, but not everywhere else yet. That’s probably
the one application keeping me on a smartphone.

~~~
postcynical
It is supported now and installable via the Kaios AppStore. I got Whatsapp
running on my nokia 8110 4G, after some fiddling and updating.

~~~
projektfu
Thanks, it didn't seem to be last time I checked. I should see how it works.

------
coconut_crab
The new Nokia tough phone has just what I need: 4G, GPS, water and dust proof,
minus all the distraction of a smart phone. It's a pity I can't build my own
version of Firefox OS for it, the close integration of Google service makes me
wary of using it ..

~~~
tdewitt
I'm in the same boat. That phone looks physically perfect for my needs but I
don't use WhatsApp, Facebook or most of the Google ecosystem (the exceptions
being gmail and calendar for work). I would pay more than what they're asking
to have a build without all of that.

------
m-p-3
It feels wierd to see that Google Assistant app on it, knowing it runs a fork
of Firefox OS.

------
slykar
If only there was a nice feature phone with KaiOS in Europe.

Nokia 8110 sucks because of the sliding panel which makes it much harder to
type on the bottom key row. T9 seemed to be worse than on other Nokia phones.

I would love to see a new Nokia 3310 with KaiOS.

~~~
holstvoogd
omg yes, the typing is terrible, it even produces repeating keys somehow.

Just got one and sent it back within 24h, turns out that the battery life was
a lie too. I drained 70-80% in 20 hours while not being actively used.

They are coming out with a few more feature phones soon btw: the 2720 Flip,
220 4g & 800 Tough.

Look nice, but I suspect the battery life is shit too. And you get a lot of
crapware you cannot remove. (Game demo even)

~~~
tecleandor
I don't know if it's your case, but I think battery charge usually isn't
reliable fir the first 2 or 3 charges, until it's calibrated.

------
butz
What was Firefox OS licence? Shouldn't KaiOS share their source code?

~~~
fabrice_d
Firefox OS had components under the MPL (Gecko) and some under the Apache
license (all the UI). KaiOS publishes changes to MPL code at
[https://github.com/kaiostech/](https://github.com/kaiostech/)

------
supercarson
Nokia.. I would not trust it again after microsoft takeover.

