
Entrepreneurs in Prison - stu_bradley
http://www.kashflow.com/blog/entrepreneurs-in-prison/
======
Mz
The piece reminds me of something I saw once about an ex con who went straight
and put his drug dealing experience on a resume. He wrote it up in business
terms that he moved $100k worth of product per year, arranged shipments,
scheduling, etc and _did it all in secret_. I don't recall what kind of work
he did after he went straight but my impression is he was pretty successful.

~~~
mdda
Except that being an ex-con means that at some point his standard NDA must
have been insufficient/unenforceable... Or he made a bad hire, or trusted the
wrong people. Just sayin'.

~~~
Mz
I do not understand why you would assert that. Anyone can make a mistake, ex
con or not. So I don't follow your logic in tying the two things together. Do
you think people simply cannot change?

Signed: Puzzled and curious.

Thanks.

~~~
jeremyarussell
Seems to me that he's saying it's obvious he didn't do a good job at not
getting caught considering he got caught. Nothing really about people not
being able to change. I may be wrong though, but hopefully that clarifies.

~~~
Mz
Um, I don't see that in the original remark. Hopefully the op will clarify.

Thanks.

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tedkalaw
This reminded me of Sudhir Venkatesh's book "Gang Leader For A Day", parts of
which were described in Freakonomics. Some of his findings included an
organized corporate structure of a big gang, a gang member with an econ degree
who wanted to put his education to use, etc. Pretty interesting read.

[http://www.amazon.com/Gang-Leader-Day-Sociologist-
Streets/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Gang-Leader-Day-Sociologist-
Streets/dp/1594201501)

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sedachv
The first Apple II word processing software was written by John Draper while
in prison: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Draper#Software_developer>

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peteretep
Perhaps worth pointing out is that the author has spent some time in prison,
which doesn't appear to be explicitly mentioned there.

~~~
mistercow
I'm not sure if you mean that it's worth pointing out because he has
experience with prisons and therefore his opinion should be given more weight,
or because he's biased and so his opinion should be given less weight. I'm not
sure I think either is true.

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mistercow
But here in America we _punish_ our prisoners, no matter the cost to society!

~~~
olalonde
Which part is wrong, the punish part or the cost part? Is it controversial to
punish criminals?

~~~
ahi
Yes. At one point in our history the criminal justice discussions were about
how best to rehabilitate the offender rather than punishment. Punishment that
neither makes the victim whole or rehabilitates the offender is just useless
vengeance.

~~~
olalonde
Rehabilitation is a secondary purpose of incarceration, its main purpose being
to deter others from committing crimes and to isolate dangerous criminals. A
lot of criminals don't even have to be rehabilitated (e.g. educated criminals
or criminals serving lifetime sentences).

~~~
ahi
Rehabilitation has not always been a secondary purpose.

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wtvanhest
I would love for there to be a way to help prisoners not commit future crimes
but this seems like a huge stretch.

First, most prisoners are not drug kingpins, they are people that do drugs to
the point of not being able to control their lives, or people who commit
violent crimes for nonsensical reasons or people who steal large or small sums
of money. Many are people you would literally be scared to see in public.

Second, entrepreneurial prisoners like drug dealers are dealing drugs because
they do not view risk the same way normal people do. They are in prison
because they decided to take an illegal path toward making money knowing that
it was easier than working.

Third, VCs will have a tough time explaining to their LPs about how they
finance criminals. Even worse would be a VC’s risk if they finance one and the
business fails and they have to explain it to their LP.

Forth, a really tough thing about starting a business is getting various
people in the industry to work with you. Being a past prisoner is likely to be
a burden in those relationships.

Fifth, them getting state/national licenses that may be required to start
various businesses will be very challenging.

There are exceptions, like there are with every rule, but this is a tough
sell. I could see a very small number of people being helped this way, but I
genuinely feel like it would be tough. There are so many great people working
toward businesses with no criminal background, it seems strange to try to put
the effort in to people that have made no effort for themselves.

------
jeremyarussell
I wrote this in the comments on the article, but also wanted to share my
thoughts with everyone here, please reply if you have something to say about
what I'm about to say, this is one of the topics in life that I haven't
finished making conclusions on, it is terribly complicated and I'd love
feedback on my mental process. Thanks.

When someone goes to prison it's generally for a good reason, after the jury
and trial and all that, it's safe to say then that these people forfeit their
rights. That's what happens when you go against the rules of a society you
belong to. I think everyone can agree with that. The trick is balance, sure
it's not fair to blanket treat inmates all the same, however they cost us
money to not just capitol-punishment the lot of them (a bad idea for moral
reasons.) So they need to pay off their debt. But to go as far as to say they
should be treated as if being away from everyone is their only punishment and
that's already bad enough is a bit naive. Many people in prison did really bad
things, like rape and murder, try telling the victims family in those cases
that the inmate that killed their kid gets to get an education, a job, some
savings for his release, cable TV, food, etc, etc. Tell them that and see what
reaction you get.

To be completely fair they did bad things, we need to keep that in mind, also
the cheap labor could be used to help society. Cheap
furniture/clothing/household items, etc for low income families comes to mind.

I think the real solution is to be transparent about how much things cost, and
we need to keep in mind that we can't allow for slave labor of prisoners just
for those profits to go into CEO's pockets. If we are to do that then it needs
to go to the potential rehabilitation of the inmate, and in dropping the costs
so lower income people can save money on essentials that are made by inmates
hands.

PS: This is definitely one of the most thought provoking articles relating to
inmates I've read in a long time.

~~~
drhayes9
I don't think I'm disagreeing with the gist of your comment, but a couple of
the ideas you put forward as givens freaked me out.

We have to leave aside two unanswered statements in your comment: how many
people in prison actually deserve to be there, and how many of their rights
prisoners surrender by being convicted of a crime. I'd argue that one's
_human_ rights don't ever get revoked, but that's just me.

What is the purpose of prison? I'd argue that it's a dual purpose: punishment
and rehabilitation.

Being away from everyone you've ever loved or known is a _terrible_
punishment. Once you walk out of a prison years after you went in the world
will have changed out from under you. Your babies are grown and won't know
you. Your parents might have died. Your friends' lives have moved on without
you. The rhythms of daily life are now foreign to you. The particulars of any
specific penitentiary system might make this easier (visitation, parole,
etc.), but this is pretty horrible.

Why does someone commit a crime? Unless they are mentally unbalanced (which,
in the US, is served by separate processes... e.g. pleading insanity), they
have behaviors that are unacceptable outside of a set of social norms. Giving
someone the opportunity to learn what society expects of them should be part
of being in prison. Isn't education a great way to figure that out? Why should
we be against someone trying to turn their life around after making some
terrible choice? (Again, leaving aside questions of over-eager judicial
systems e.g. the US' war on drugs)

~~~
jeremyarussell
Human rights shouldn't get revoked, no doubt, they are still human after all.
I'm referring to citizenship rights, like the right to a minimum wage as an
example, or the right to have certain foods or religious needs met. At the end
of the day most inmates took rights away from another, like in the case of
rape, a girls right to say no. Or murder, a persons right to live.

I would say in regards to rehabilitation that we teach them exactly what they
need to know about society in order to cope with coming back in, I do agree
that if someone spent that long without freedom, and they served their time,
then they should be free when they get out, with all rights given back.

I get that it's a terrible punishment to, sometimes worse then death for
people that enjoy their freedom, I would argue that we continue to evolve what
is the "correct" length of time for people to be in prison for one. And yeah
we shouldn't be against someone turning their life around, but not to the
extent that we waste resources on people getting a second chance, when there's
a plethora of people still waiting for their first chance.

------
chasing
First, it's prison. So, y'know, punishment on some level. In addition to
rehabilitation. So my gut reaction is that I'd rather see more educational
programs going on. Especially since a lot of "entrepreneurship" is really just
either scammy behavior or flat-out fantasy (my start-up's the next Facebook!).
Especially when the education isn't in place.

That said, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea. But, as a tax-payer, the idea
that someone is getting free room and board on my dime while they make a good
income grates a bit. What does it cost to keep someone incarcerated for a year
these days? $40k? If the inmate were to repay this -- the sort of rent and
bills every other entrepreneur has to pay -- then the idea would be more
palatable.

~~~
jisaacstone
I had a friend in prison some years ago. He said the worst thing wan there was
nothing to do. Most people slept 12+ hours a day & when they got out they
couldn't adjust.

So yeah, I feel any productive activity is a damn good idea.

~~~
itmag
Hmmm... Instant brainstorm mode... What startup ideas involving prisoners can
we think of?

Maybe some kind of Mechanical Turk esque web site where their earnings get
paid out to them upon release?

Or some kind of Learnable tailored to inmates?

Any ideas, people? :)

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JVIDEL
Nowhere in the article I see anything about the mental disorders of criminals,
psychopaths and sociopaths who can be very entrepreneurial but also very low
on ethics.

There are two kinds of criminals: the ones that do it because they were
desperate, and the ones that are mentally ill and not only can't see risk but
can't see why it's wrong to kill another person for money or turf.

The desperate ones would truly like to have a normal life and a job, but some
of then were born SOL into crack houses and abusive fathers. The psychopaths
come from every social class, I meet this guy in college who had rich parents
and still was trying to push X all over the place.

------
bmelton
At the risk of sounding glib, I don't think that's how most drug dealers in
prison began dealing drugs.

I could be way off, but the scenario he posits, wherein all hits mates are
buying weed and he arbitrages, is probably not how most drug dealers come into
operation, and certainly not how I suspect the prison-time crowd got into it.

~~~
m_for_monkey
_"How do you think they got in to it then? Trying not to sound snarky - I'm
genuinely interested in what other route you see people taking into drug
dealing."_ -, asked HN user _djacksonkf_ in his dead comment.

I think he is Duane Jackson, the author. He seems to be banned for some
reason.

Duane, you can create a new account in no time.

~~~
d_jackson_kf
Thanks. I am indeed the author. Didn't realise I was banned!

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sherm8n
That's genius. Jet Blue's uses stay-at-home moms as their entire workforce of
reservation agents. Productivity increased by 25% and employee turnover was
reduced when they moved from call centers to homes.

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stevengg
maybe we can get Hans Reiser back working on file systems from prison someday,
even when it became clear he had killed his wife there is a part of me that
wanted too see him get off to keep working on ReiserFS

~~~
lucian1900
ReiserFS wasn't that good. It was fast for small files, but crap for
everything else.

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maeon3
Being a good entrepreneur is more than identifying opportunities for arbitrage
and executing on it and rolling profits into the system that can fuel more
arbitrage. It's also taking into account the sustainability of the system.
Evaluating the legality of the arbitrage is more important than the skill to
profit from it.

~~~
_delirium
Are there really many entrepreneurs who take it upon themselves to consider
the sustainability of the system, rather than just their own ability to profit
from it? Some probably, but it doesn't seem to be the norm in business
culture, apart from some talk of "corporate social responsibility" at large
companies that I strongly suspect is mainly for PR reasons.

~~~
Tycho
I think their own ability to profit from it (ie. avoiding jail and violent
attacks) was the sustainability to which he was referring.

