
A Startup Making Paper Out of Stone, Not Trees - T-A
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-15/the-former-used-car-salesman-who-s-squeezing-paper-from-a-stone
======
soupbowl
Just a note: paper is either made of dead standing trees or wood that is so
full of rot/defect that no lumber can be made from it. It is a common
misconception that live green trees and whole forests are destroyed for paper.

\- a former woodsman for 13 years

Edit: My experience is in western Canada. I forgot that hackernews is a global
site. Some countries do grow pine specifically for paper.

~~~
emondi
Here in south America paper mills work with massive pine plantations, in
deforested land or in former wetlands.

~~~
EGreg
But they grow the pines for paper and then regrow them? Is the whole operation
sustainable? According to Penn and Teller's "Bullshit", it is.

~~~
emondi
Yes, they use mostly young pines which are easily chipped. I think in about 6
years you can cut them for paper.

~~~
zebrafish
8-10 years. Most (~80%) of the power needed in a paper mill is generated from
the bark of the tree which is converted into fuel using several chemical
mixtures. Overall, the paper industry is actually very sustainable.

------
philipkglass
_To make a ton of regular paper requires 100 tons of water, TBM says, while
its Limex paper is made without water. In place of 20 trees, it uses less than
a ton of limestone, as well as 200 kilograms of polyolefin.

...

"Making paper from wood chips involves planting trees, which can be carbon
neutral, so I’m not sure how much appeal this will have" from an environmental
perspective._

Appeal from an environmental perspective: zero. Less than zero. Polyolefins
are plastics. The vast majority are made from fossils. Polyolefins _can_ be
made starting from biomass but then so is ordinary paper. It's baffling if the
inventor or his customers think that he's improved on the traditional
environmental tradeoffs associated with paper production.

~~~
Baeocystin
Polyolefins are some of the safest plastics around, environmentally speaking,
and are fully recyclable. The paper may actually be as good or better than
standard pulp paper is.

It may not be, too! Calculating the lifecycle is complex. But it isn't
something than is easy to assume one way or the other.

~~~
schiffern
They're starting off by replacing a potentially renewable resource (trees)
with two nonrenewable resources (plastic and limestone). It could still come
out ahead in the lifecycle analysis, but it's not a great place to start.

> _and are fully recyclable_

How about after mixing them with a bunch of limestone? Generally "hybrid"
materials aren't recyclable (tetrapacks, mylar bags, wet strength cardboard,
etc).

~~~
saalweachter
Serious question.

So I know limestone is technically a non-renewable resource, since we're using
it far faster than it is being created.

Should, uh, we actually be worried? It's like 7% of the Earth's crust; are we
actually using limestone fast enough to use up a significant fraction of the
usable limestone in the expected lifetime of humanity?

~~~
eicossa
I've always wondered the same about iron ore, granite, marble etc.

~~~
Baeocystin
The BBC put together a world resource list a couple years back that I think
you might find interesting.

[http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120618-global-resources-
st...](http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120618-global-resources-stock-check)

It lists a variety of elements (like antimony) that are surprisingly
constrained. If I were to pick the most critical material on the list, though,
it would be phosphates. The green boom that feeds the world needs phosphates,
the world supply of phosphate-bearing rock is small, and there are no possible
substitutes.

------
everyone
Isn't hemp one of the most ecologically sound materials to make paper from?

random link
[http://www.hemphasis.net/Paper/paper_files/hempvtree.htm](http://www.hemphasis.net/Paper/paper_files/hempvtree.htm)

And one of the reasons marijuana was originally prohibited in the US was due
to lobbying from wood-based paper companies.

~~~
dsl
The fact hemp is illegal is silly, but it isn't as amazing as all the potheads
would have you believe.

Hemp is legal to grow elsewhere in the world, and importing it into the US has
been legal since the 90s. Yet the worldwide demand for hemp has stayed flat,
mostly because it requires a massive amount of water and humus rich soil
compared to alternatives. The plant itself has a weak stalk that makes
mechanical harvesting difficult, and can't be harvested year-round like trees
can.

If it was a commercially viable alternative, you'd see usage in Europe and
Asia. Remember that poor countries tend to gravitate to cost efficient
materials for domestic use, yet almost all hemp produced is exported.

------
failrate
Buried in the article is that the binder is polyolefin, which basically just
means plastic. So, this is plastic paper. Granted, the examples given were for
semi durable items like menus and business cards, but i still see that as a
net negative.

~~~
wavefunction
Depending on the type of restaurant menus can need frequent re-printing. I'm
sure even at lower-end corporate chains there is a cycle time where new dishes
are cycled through while older ones are removed.

~~~
squimmy
I imagine in those types of restaurants, menus might be cycled-out due to wear
and tear more often than due to changing dishes. In which case, the increased
durability and water-resistance of this stone-based paper might result in less
waste.

------
tray5
I've got a notebook of stone paper that I bought from a local office supplier
which I use for general note taking. It's not the brand in the article
however. Writing on stone paper feels quite amazing. The pen just glides over
the paper, and the paper feels very high quality. It's waterproof and doesn't
tear like normal paper (when you pull it apart it pulls like a flimsy elastic
plastic that eventually rips). I thoroughly enjoy using it.

------
lazyjones
I see 2 problems with this:

* the other ingredient is polyolefin resins - unless they are obtained from recycled plastic bags or similar, this probably makes Limex worse than normal paper (how much water is involved, we do't know for sure).

* what happens at the product's EOL? Will it end up together with recycled paper and cause problems in that process? Will it have to be recycled separately and if yes, who's going to be able to tell these types of paper apart?

------
Overtonwindow
I'm not sure about this. Trees are sustainable and renewable. Rocks are not.
This is why mining can be so devastating to an area

~~~
Baeocystin
We're never going to run out of lime. Ever. It is literally everywhere.

~~~
dragonmum
> We're never going to run out of lime. Ever. It is literally everywhere.

Not true. Limestone suitable for mining is a limited resource. That's why
cement companies like Lafarge pay millions for mining rights in South East
Asia. They clear out entire mountain ranges to turn into cement.

~~~
Baeocystin
They will mine wherever they can make the greatest profit.

That doesn't mean we will ever run out, or even ever run out of good-quality
limestone. It just means that for a variety of reasons (mostly lax taxation
laws and a population in poverty that will work for terrible wages) Vietnam is
a hotspot for mining in SE Asia, but its total production is a rounding error
compared to what is produced in China alone.

There is a lot to be discussed about exploiting poorer areas for resource
extraction. It's a subject that goes beyond any one particular resource. But
(in the case of lime) it also does not imply scarcity. Keep in mind that lime
can be regenerated- the lime cycle is an endless loop.

------
Animats
Paper is a declining consumer of wood. "Peak paper" was years ago, after print
newspapers tanked. There are many abandoned paper mills, if you want one. It's
possible to make paper from rice hulls (works fine, and common in China, but a
bit hard as a writing surface), kenaf (works, but nobody bothers), and hemp
(niche product for potheads).

It's just not a problem.

~~~
walkingolof
It shifted rather, newspaper paper is down yes, but hygienic products and all
sort of package material is up by allot

~~~
dx034
Ecommerce will probably play an even bigger role there. The demand for paper
packaging has been increasing constantly over the last decade. Amazon probably
uses more paper than even a major newspaper.

------
isaac_is_goat
Silliness. Paper is a sustainable, and easily renewable resource...we don't
need to find alternatives if we just keep planting trees.

~~~
tommoor
From the article: "To make a ton of regular paper requires 100 tons of water".
It hardly seems silly to avoid that cost, fresh water is on it's way to being
a scarce resource in many parts of the planet.

~~~
turbohedgehog
The water doesn't just disappear into thin air. It gets reused sometimes and
then get treated and released or reused.

~~~
InitialLastName
Side point: water literally just disappears into thin air.

------
tiplus
I am worried about the dust this type of paper might produce when it is
shredded or ripped, similar to the dust from rockwool insulation materials
made from stone fibres. If I remember correctly, the persistence time of
rockwool dust (current generation not 1970s) in your lungs is about 4 weeks,
during which it is /may be cancerogenic?

------
desireco42
I had one of the most beautiful writing experiences with pencil on stone
paper, it is amazing (Field Notes).

On the other hand, it is not for fountain pens. I think it is specialty paper
that is very useful but will not replace regular paper and also should not be
sold as ecological alternative.

------
Inconel
Years ago, when I got the original Nexus One smartphone, I'm fairly certain
the box it came in contained a small card with instructions on it that was
made from limestone. I can't remember the name of the company responsible but
I remember it being printed on the card and that I checked out their website
since I was intrigued. I never saw those non-paper cards in any subsequent
Nexus packages.

Edit: I wonder why Google stopped using them. Or maybe they didn't and I just
never noticed since they were so paper-like.

------
jaddood
I can imagine cutting trees, burning large areas of vegetation to allow for
mining, which is even worse. Lands get deformed, parts of limestone mountains
start collapsing. Plants never grow again in the area unless aggressive
regenaration of the land and planting is done. The soil gets fragile and
unstable.

I also wonder how the process of production is done. To process limestone
usually produces a lot of co2 (I have no reference, but that's what I remember
from reading stuff online). Additionally, as many have noted the plastics used
(20% of the final mass of the product) still are plastics made from fossil
resources. Is a way for recycling known, especially considering the final
product is a mixture of plastics and limestone?

It seems that the producer does not have a real, scientific proof that his
production is environmentally good, but does it as a 'novel', and
'fascinating' idea with the only goal of making money. The article itself says
that the producer looks forward to making a product that will last, but does
not indicate that the producer ever had a goal of protecting the environment.

Finally, the subject is very much worth of discussion in HN, and I personally
feel thankful for the one who submitted it.

------
george_ciobanu
Trees aside, this is not a new concept, stone paper notebooks have been around
for a while. The ones I had wrote incredibly smooth and I loved every one of
them. I think Walgreens still carries a small one.

[https://www.walgreens.com/store/c/oxford-stone-paper-note-
bo...](https://www.walgreens.com/store/c/oxford-stone-paper-note-
book/ID=prod6000650-product)

~~~
grondilu
Seems true. A "stone paper" search on Amazon shows there are items already
available:

[https://www.amazon.com/Stone-Paper-Notebook-13x21cm-
Cobalt/d...](https://www.amazon.com/Stone-Paper-Notebook-13x21cm-
Cobalt/dp/B06W56LCF6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497614854&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=stone+paper&psc=1)

------
Someone
[https://www.wired.com/2013/02/stone-paper-
notebook/](https://www.wired.com/2013/02/stone-paper-notebook/): _" this paper
is made from stone, but it isn't exactly eco-friendly"_.

Not surprising given that it is around one fifth plastic.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_paper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_paper):
_" The process for creating Stone Paper was first developed by Taiwan Lung
Meng Tech Co. in Taiwan during the late 1990s. Stone Paper has been patented
in over 40 countries, where its products are marketed under a variety of other
trade names such as GPA UltraGreen, MIST Paper, Parax Paper, Terraskin,
ViaStone, Kampier, Limex, CleanSlate, EmanaGreen and Rockstock, Pixz Printing,
KYStone Paper and Nu Stone."_

So, the main idea it isn't new either. What, if anything, is special about
this startup's process?

------
ipsum2
Would this be considered a business, not a startup? I don't see major
disruption happening in this space. Lots of companies make non-wood paper,
e.g.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_paper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_paper)
and plastic.

~~~
Cyphase
Does a startup have to be majorly disruptive? Does it have to be (one of) the
first in its market?

------
oxplot
There doesn't seem to be mention of few existing companies that have been
producing notebooks and other products from limestone, for years now. One
example:

* [http://nuco-direct.com/nu-stone/](http://nuco-direct.com/nu-stone/)

~~~
janekm
Well, the article did say that the owner of the company saw this type of
"paper" in Korea and decided to set up a similar factory in Japan...

------
dpark
So instead of carbon neutral pulp paper that can be recycled and biodegrades,
this paper is 1/5 plastic, doesn't biodegrade, and probably ruins the batch if
mixed with pulp-based paper for recycling.

The water savings are good, but this doesn't seem like a net gain.

------
rollingpebbles
Just an FYI that Koch-owned Georgia-Pacific papermills release tons of cancer-
causing pollutants including PCBs, hydrogen sulfide, cyanide, formaldehyde,
dioxin, acetaldehyde and chloroform into neighboring communities.

[http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1007148](http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1007148)

[http://www.newsweek.com/2016/04/29/crossett-arkansas-
georgia...](http://www.newsweek.com/2016/04/29/crossett-arkansas-georgia-
pacific-factory-pollution-446954.html)

------
saagarjha
Quick question: what are the properties of this paper? Can I burn it? Fold it?
Eat it?

~~~
Baeocystin
Yes. Polyolefins are highly flammable. They aren't the worst plastic to burn,
but they will melt and stick to things, and you really shouldn't breathe the
smoke.

Yes.

With the right attitude, anything is possible! (really, don't, though.)

------
chefandy
I have a notebook made from stone paper. I use it in my kitchen because water
won't kill it and I can write on it in sharpie without it bleeding, even onto
the opposite side of the page. This is not new.

------
iamatworknow
I've been using these "Ogami Collection" notebooks apparently made from
limestone for a while now: [https://origin68.com/collections/notebooks-
stationery/produc...](https://origin68.com/collections/notebooks-
stationery/products/professional-black-notebook?variant=7229226053)

They're like much more durable Moleskins, in my experience.

------
dguo
"He says it’s the answer to concerns over deforestation and water shortages,
with world demand for paper set to double by 2030."

I'm very curious as to what is expected to be driving this increase in demand.
If anything, I would expect electronics to make paper more and more obsolete.
But what am I missing?

~~~
Jaruzel
If we build enough desalination plants, there'd be no such thing as [fresh]
water shortage; 2/3rds of the planet is covered in it.

That said... Why aren't Paper pulping factories located near the sea, and have
desalination on site if using fresh water is such a problem?

~~~
usrusr
Paper pulping factories are built where fresh water is abundant, they don't
have a problem. These areas also tend to coincide with wood sources. It would
be incredibly inefficient to make paper on desalination water when you can
just ship it from a rainy place.

Whenever someone is making a big topic out of water consumption (not to be
confused with water pollution!) without specific ties to an arid environment
it's just a desperate attempt at greenwashing. Water scarcity is real, but it
is not universally real everywhere.

~~~
lovemenot
Agreed. But exceptions do exist. Singapore is neither arid nor self-sufficient
in fresh water.

~~~
usrusr
If water is really that scarce there ( = expensive), they are most likely
using a much more water-efficient process than the typical pulp factory close
to arid wood resources. The rough ballpark numbers for "water use in paper
production" include a majority of factories located in places where investment
in water reuse facilities simply does not work out economically, and quite
possibly not even ecologically.

------
johngrefe
I wonder what takes more CO2 output. Mining stone, or growing trees and
processing them in paper farms?

Smrt.

~~~
soupbowl
Processed wood is considered carbon neutral until it breaks down, minus the
transportation emissions.

------
elicash
You can view the end result, including when they attempt to tear it, in this
video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchJZKoT16w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchJZKoT16w)

------
hkmurakami
This seems way less sustainable than pulp based paper. What's the appeal?

------
dwenzek
And this startup aims to replace concrete by a wood based material.

[https://woodoo.fr/home/](https://woodoo.fr/home/)

------
nottorp
I'm assuming that besides it being waterproof, it's also fireproof? That would
make it interesting.

Other than that, limestone isn't renewable while trees are so...

------
bronz
why is there no effort to make artificial tree mass? this could be done by
creating genetically engineered trees that use as little resources as possible
to grow as much wood as possible in lab environments. one could even go as far
as powering the cells electrically -- it is theoretically possible and has
been done in the lab before. or, why is there no effort to synthesize wood
itself chemically, industrially?

~~~
vpribish
are you serious? like - really? because we already do solar powered, mass-
industrial-scale, genetically engineered, hyper-optimized paper feedstock
production in _forests_.

~~~
scarlac
I don't think that's an unreasonable question. Your answer suggests that we
already have the most optimal solution, which by analogy cows would be too. I
assume you know cows aren't.

But like with cows, it is not inconceivable that "regular" trees are not the
most effective way of making wood. They need to stay alive which means they
"waste" energy doing so. While I personally don't think we can outdo trees
with regular chemical compounds, I think we can at least genetically modify
some already-optimized tree family in a way that require less water, sun, etc.

------
Nursie
Stone.... and polyolefins. This somewhat pollutes the message. Is it anywhere
near as recyclable or biodegradable as 'normal' paper?

~~~
saalweachter
From a market perspective, there are really two distinct markets: temporary
paper users (newspapers, mailers, the stuff you write your school papers
on...) and archival paper users (eg libraries). For archival users, the
biodegradability of paper is a bug, not a feature, even though for the bulk of
overall paper users are probably the temporary users, and need to be able to
compost or recycle your waste paper.

Imagine being able to drop your book in the bathtub and just shake it off;
imagine future historians finding a thousand year old abandoned library in
mint condition. A non-biodegradable paper wouldn't replace wood/rag pulp paper
in any meaningful way, but it would have its uses.

------
bighi
Trees = renewable resource

Stone = not renewable resource

I don't think we should waste stone even faster than we already are.

------
bmcusick
I wonder what the archival properties of this paper are like. Is it fully
inert? That would be useful.

------
jonah
There used to be a company called EarthShell which made biodegradable food
packaging and other containers out of limestone and other stuff. It went
public in 1998[0], filed for bankruptcy protection a decade ago[1], and their
twitter account was last updated in 2010[2].

I wish TBM better luck.

[0] [https://secure.marketwatch.com/story/earthshell-begins-to-
cr...](https://secure.marketwatch.com/story/earthshell-begins-to-crumble)

[1] "After losing more than $331 million during its 14 years of operations,
EarthShell Corp. has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection." \-
[http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/stories/2007/01/29/stor...](http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/stories/2007/01/29/story1.html)
(paywalled)

[2] [https://twitter.com/EarthShell](https://twitter.com/EarthShell)

Interesting trivia: the founder and chairman, Essam Khashoggi, is the brother
of Adnan Khashoggi - a central figure in the Iran-Contra affair.

------
MPSimmons
Paper sequesters carbon. Why is using stone a good thing here?

------
med_abidi
I guess this is what it mean to be written in stone.

------
Chaebixi
What's the archival permanence of this stuff?

------
id122015
Going back to Flinstone age ?

------
ccvannorman
FINALLY, I'll be able to take notes while scuba-diving.

------
jcwayne
> world demand for paper set to double by 2030

We have failed.

------
needlessly
paper? What is this 1995?

~~~
choward
Computers and the Internet existed back then too. Over two decades later and
sending paper through the mail is still a thing. WHY?!?!?!

