
‘Unsubstantiated’ child neglect finding for free-range parents - tokenadult
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/decision-in-free-range-case-does-not-end-debate-about-parenting-and-safety/2015/03/02/5a919454-c04d-11e4-ad5c-3b8ce89f1b89_story.html
======
chromaton
Notice here that there has been no arrest, no charges, and no trial. Yet the
family in question still had to go through a very stressful period of time AND
has an open file with the county CPS, who threatened to take the kids away.

I was in a very similar situation for almost the exact same thing. I'm happy
Georgia DFACS did not get involved, though being arrested still sucks.

~~~
m_mueller
This right here is the number one reason why I'd never take a job in the US.
I'd be scared to either be forced to

* become a helicopter parent (and thus have less independent children).

* run the risk of loosing my children and/or go to jail.

How the hell did you people let it come that far? I.e. how do people keep
voting for these moron politician with their _war on XYZ_ narrative.

Me and my wife come from two countries where parents are actually _pushed_ to
make their children more independant - Switzerland and Japan. In Switzerland,
children are usually sent to Kindergarden on their own, by foot, at least if
the neighbourhood is safe (note: requires a city structure where a drive isn't
necessary to get anywhere). All parents do is give them a lunchbox, a
visibility triangle and a kiss on the head. [1]: This is how you'll meet them
on the roads. There's signs and TV programs everywhere before first day of
school to warn drivers of new children on the streets - after 1-2 weeks it's
not necessary anymore and we don't have a higher number of child accidents to
my knowledge.

In Japan, small children are accompanied not by their parents, but by older
children, usually 3-4 years older. Their morning meetup is organized and
supervised by elderly volunteers who keep watch at the meetup point. It both
teaches responsibility to the 9+ year olds and first independance from adults
to the youngest.

How come the US doesn't use studies from abroad when doing CP regulation?
Boggles my mind.

[1]
[http://www.baselland.ch/fileadmin/baselland/pics/docs/uebrig...](http://www.baselland.ch/fileadmin/baselland/pics/docs/uebrige/mit_pol/2007/2007d/529_2g.jpg)

~~~
tokenadult
You wrote,

 _This right here is the number one reason why I 'd never take a job in the
US._

Your fear of coming to the United States, which is second only to France as an
international tourist destination, and second to none as a net destination for
immigration, is irrational. It is perfectly safe to live in the United States
and walk about in public. My children do that all the time. (I say so in a
comment in this thread that was posted earlier than your comment.) This news
story is news because it is a rare event. But what the news story illustrates
is that irrational fear can keep people from doing things that are perfectly
safe--like letting their children walk about in public, as I do, or visiting
other countries, as I have.

~~~
m_mueller
How can it be a rare event if it's based on a State law? Am I supposed to
trust that the government is not starting to enforce laws I cannot live with?

Also, visiting a country and living there are two very different things. I
often visit the US and I tend to enjoy it. But deciding to live somewhere
(i.e. taking a job) requires a conscious decision by me to accept the overall
societal and legal framework of a place - and I currently cannot do that for
the US. In fact I question why there aren't more Americans who cannot accept
it. Can something like the Sexual Revolution ever happen again (= a wide
ranging transformation of society through a largely non violent movement). Is
the grip by mass media and government too tight? Is it just not bad enough to
warrant action?

~~~
robotresearcher
> How can it be a rare event if it's based on a State law?

Because like all laws, it is invoked and exercised with discretion by real,
sensible, responsible people almost all the time.

~~~
marincounty
You're kidding--right? So many state and local laws are fluff? If they sound
good, and have no serious lobby interest these politicans will usually pass.
In California, we have way too many "well meaning at the time" laws--that
should be removed, or seriously modified.

I share one that irritated me. For years, in California anyone with a
bachelors degree from a four year college, after taking eight required relate
state courses could take the realestate brokers examination.

The Realestate Lobbiests decided to change the law and require every applicant
work under a realeste broker for two years in order to sit for the broker's
exam.

Gov. Schwarzenegger saw right through the bill. Knew there no probems with the
current system, and didn't want to limit competition. He vetoed the bill.

A few years forward, Gov. Brown thought it sounded good and passed the law.
The result is we have less competition, and the guys' who move a lot of
property don't have the competition they used to have. Think about that when
you try to haggle over that 3% commission.

Anyways, since I followed that bill I will never vote just on party lines.
Back to state/local laws--we should be deleting laws every year after instead
of holding competitions(Jarrod Huffman) for new bills? I heard California
passes over 10,000 new laws/bylaws every year? (Too tired to look it up, but
that was the case a few years ago.)

------
tokenadult
The legal background of this case from Maryland must have something to do with
the weird result so far: "[Maryland Child Protective Services] officials have
said they are guided in part by a state law that says children younger than 8
must be left with a reliable person who is at least 13. The law addresses
children locked or confined in a building, dwelling, motor vehicle or other
enclosed space, but does not mention children outdoors on a walk." My state,
Minnesota, doesn't appear to have such a law, and it doesn't appear to have
CPS officers who would give such a crazy interpretation to a comparable law. I
have certainly had my children walking all over my neighborhood (a full mile
from my house in either of two directions, for shopping or for trips to the
library) when the oldest in the party was ten years old, for most of the last
decade. It is very routine for my children to be out walking in our
neighborhood, even during school hours, as we are a homeschooling family. This
story is news in part because it is very unusual.

AFTER EDIT: Other reporting on this same story, with varying emphasis on other
details:

[http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/03/02/parents...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/03/02/parents-
investigated-letting-children-walk-alone/24265981/)

[http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/maryland/2015/03/02/fr...](http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/maryland/2015/03/02/free-
range-parents-fight-child-neglect-ruling/24287953/)

[https://ca.shine.yahoo.com/-free-range--parents-under-
invest...](https://ca.shine.yahoo.com/-free-range--parents-under-
investigation-for-child-neglect-will-appeal-cps-decision-143030305.html)

A letter to the editor of the local paper reporting the story points out that
children can be required to walk that far to school in the same state:

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/children-were-
caught-...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/children-were-caught-
walking-at-the-wrong-
time/2015/03/03/9c2d2962-c1b7-11e4-a188-8e4971d37a8d_story.html)

~~~
schoen
I thought this map

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-
children-...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-children-
lost-right-roam-generations.html)

(which was created in an earlier round of reporting on this topic) was quite
impressive. It shows, on a single map, how far each generation of children in
a particular family was allowed to walk by their parents. (Spoiler alert:
there's a decrease by factors of 6, 2, and 3 in successive generations.)

~~~
nitrogen
It would help if we started using density-adjusted distance units [1].
Possible example unit: if there are 10,000 people per square mile in a given
area, then one mile could be sqrt(10000), or 100 people. But if there are
100kp/sq.mi., then one mile equals ~316 people.

So the question is, how far are children allowed to wander in units of people
passed? Alternatively, how many doors can children pass within their permitted
radius?

[1] I also think this would be useful for comparing commute times.

~~~
schoen
That's an interesting calculation. People might have different intuitions
about whether higher density makes the kids safer or less safe.

------
kstrauser
Maryland has a new Governor as of January. If I were him, I would be
humiliated and furious that a state agency declared Maryland unsafe for
children. That's not the kind of image you want to project.

I've already written this in a letter to his office. If you agree with me and
think he should use his executive powers to reign in a renegade agency under
his authority, please consider doing the same.

~~~
bmelton
To be fair to Hogan, this all began well before he took office, and hence, it
can't be his policies that are to blame for this action.

That said, it's definitely good advice to bring to his attention, so I'll send
an email or stop by the next time I'm in Annapolis.

~~~
snowwrestler
I don't think the OP was blaming Hogan, but rather recognizing the opportunity
his election represents. Since Reagan, Republicans have liked to campaign
against government overreach. Well, here is a gift-wrapped example for Hogan
to work on.

~~~
bmelton
No disagreement at all... I just wanted to let those know that this (at least,
thus far) wasn't his fault, for those who might not have known.

I"m sure there will be plenty to hold him accountable for in the future,
though there is indeed a genuine opportunity here for him to right a potential
wrong.

------
WalterBright
The thing is, we live in an incredibly safe society. But our brains are
hardwired to look for danger, and if there isn't any, we invent imaginary ones
and exaggerate what little danger remains.

------
A_COMPUTER
I know more than one person who is in complete support of these laws. You
can't argue with them, you can only outnumber them if you're lucky.

I had some friends who worked weird hours when their two children were very
young, and they were repeatedly harassed by child services because the same
person repeatedly turned them in no matter how many times CPS determined there
was no problem. By law CPS were required to act on every report. Probably a
good idea, but it enables harassment in some cases.

~~~
chiph
Crazy people are crazy... I worked in an office where a manager's ex-wife
would swear out warrants against him. By the third or fourth time, the
detectives were like: "She's done it again, Steve. We need to go downtown and
fill out the paperwork, and then we'll drive you back."

------
jbarham
As a Canadian who relocated to Australia four years ago via California, it's
refreshing to live in a society where the default expectation is that adults
will behave as such. Consider:

* it's perfectly legal in Australia for adults to drink alcohol in public parks

* heck, your local council government will probably also have installed gas BBQs in your public park so you can cook sausages to enjoy with your beer

* no idiotic and humiliating TSA-style security theatre on domestic flights in Australia

* children walk to school all the time by themselves without their parents being investigated for neglect etc.

Government provided BBQs are inconceivable in California since (gasp!) the hot
plate may burn someone and the lawyers wouldn't like that.

Similarly something as basic as providing public toilets at a place like
Huntington Beach (in Orange County!) is a fiasco as the stalls don't have
doors, because they might provide privacy for drug addicts shooting up. For
the 99% who aren't drug addicts, tough luck, a right to privacy while you do
your business obviously isn't worth anything anyway.

I could go on, but from a distance the American claim to be the "land of the
free and the home of the brave" is increasingly farcical.

~~~
foolfoolz
as a Californian I must defend the availability of our public bbqs - which are
numerous - especially in beach cities. I can even go on my counties website
and find parks with bathrooms and bbqs listed. drinking in the park is rarer,
but still allowed in certain parks. we are still the land of the free (bbq)

~~~
jbarham
Apologies, I see from e.g.
[http://ocparks.com/parks/ted/amenities](http://ocparks.com/parks/ted/amenities)
that you are correct. I see though, that at least in OC, you still have to
provide charcoal briquettes for your BBQs, whereas the Aussies just push a
button to turn on the gas.

~~~
foolfoolz
unfortunately as awesome as it sounds free gas in America would somehow end up
getting painted as a welfare handout

------
malkia
Free range was always for me back in Bulgaria. As soon as I reached 5 or 6 I
was walking through the city, staying sometimes alone at home, walking from
school, etc.

Was I alone, nope - almost every kid was like that.

Just take a look at the kids movies, and books... You know that's funny -
cause my 7 year old really like Ron Roy's A-Z Mysteries -
[http://www.ronroy.com/atoz/books.php](http://www.ronroy.com/atoz/books.php)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_to_Z_Mysteries](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_to_Z_Mysteries)

The kids are nine years old - and do really roam by themselves alone...

One of my favourite movies "Verano Azul" (Blue Summer) was real-hit in
Bulgaria, and quotes from it are still used to this day (middle man, pirahna,
etc.)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E47_QWOXrMA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E47_QWOXrMA)

And a lot of the bulgarian kid movies were about kids free roaming, exploring,
interacting while parents are on the beach, totally not caring about them.

It wasn't that bad really!

Then again, when comes to me - nowadays I'm real ___helicopter_ __\- gaaaah!

------
IgorPartola
So I expect there will be a lot of "when I was a kid we did this all the time"
type stuff in te replies here. Before jumping on that bandwagon (I took lots
of walks like this in a city far less friendly in some ways), let me say that
I think at least the question deserves to be asked. Then again, the way this
happened, the parents seem to have no recourse. They are "found" to be
neglecting, yet there is no actual trial. Perhaps they should sue the state
over libel, and settle this once and for all. I am sure if they win they could
claim quite a bit of damage to their character not to mention inconvenience of
having the nation watch their personal decisions. Best of all, that would
create a precedent which can then be referenced. As is, this is just an
administrative record.

Also, if this is neglect, then what is withholding vaccines for deadly
diseases from your child? What actually puts you in more danger?

~~~
robotresearcher
They were not found to be neglecting. The finding was that the allegation of
neglect was unsubstantiated. That's totally different. The parents quite
understandably wanted to be absolved. It's a shame they weren't. But they were
not found guilty of anything.

~~~
IgorPartola
I see. I misread the article. Thanks for the clarification.

~~~
bmelton
Honestly, it's debatable whether or not you did misread it.

The way it reads, they weren't found innocent of child neglect, they were
found to be held responsible for the unsubstantiated child negligence charges.

Their names will be placed in a file, and if the cops responsible pick up the
kids again for equally unsubstantiated claims, it will trigger a more thorough
investigation. At present, for the next five years, they're on the CPS
equivalent of "probation".

------
unavoidable
Ah, free-range parents. Or as we used to call them, parents.

~~~
malkia
Pleasure to meet you! I "progressed" from a "free-range" kid to a "closed-
range helicopter parent".

~~~
cesarbs
Why? Honest question.

I was very sheltered as a child and today I try not to be so with my daughter,
because I know the consequences of growing up being sheltered. I really push
for her to be independent, to deal with her own problems, and to go through
the pain/sadness without much caressing when something bad happens (say, she
hurts herself while playing and it's not really a major injury that requires
going to the hospital).

~~~
malkia
Because I need to become a better parent I guess, or maybe different one.

I possibly do it, and this is simply - not letting him go free on the street
while we cross it, in the parking, and always making sure I can see him while
he's playing at the playground, and at the same time I so much want to tell
him my favourite story how me and my one year older cousin walked 25
kilometers from one city to another just to get my plastic truck (we were 5-6
years old).

I'm afraid, because I've succumbed to the peer pressure, media, and let myself
just go this route that everyone around takes, or at least shows that it
takes.

I want him to roam free, but then if something happens, even if it's not a big
deal, I'll feel bad, and I won't be strong enough to reply to all
questions/answers/attitude from everyone else.

He really has much more freedom back in Bulgaria where he goes every summer...

~~~
mod
I want to raise my kids in a rural setting to avoid all of this.

I imagine in most rural settings the community attitude would be the opposite
of what you mentioned.

------
mikerichards
Back in the 70s there didn't have to be a name like "free-range". It was just
playing. We were probably around 7 or so, riding around on our Huffys, playing
in the woods, jumping in fiber glass in new construction, etc..

I don't see kids running around outside that much anymore. I think there's a
lot of scare-mongering by the media for things that have always been present,
and a lot of nosy, do-gooders with too much time on their hands.

That said, as a parent of a 2 year old, I can't really see myself letting my
kid in 4 years run around without much supervision. I guess one difference was
that we always had our little gang with us...at least 3 or 4 of us always
together.

~~~
orbitingpluto
Well in the 80s, the term was latchkey kid. There was a bit of a stigma to
being one in Stepfordish suburbia, as it meant either both parents had to work
(and therefor you were poor) or you were the product of a broken home.

~~~
gwern
No, latchkey kid isn't quite right. 'latchkey' was for kids who came home to
an empty house - no mom waiting for them with snacks or to check they were
doing their homework, the stereotype being that the latchkey kid would pig out
on junk food and watch TV. eg I had a stay-at-home mom and was allowed to roam
with friends, so while I might've been somewhat free-range, I was not a
latchkey kid.

------
codezero
I used to walk to school with my sisters when I was 6 years old and they were
8 & 11\. We walked over a mile.

------
andrewstuart2
Maryland Family Law Article, Section 5-701:

> “Unsubstantiated” means a finding that there is an insufficient amount of
> evidence to support a finding of indicated or ruled out.

There was not sufficient evidence to support either confirmation of abuse or
to rule it out. That's all this ruling means.

[1]
[http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutesText.aspx?artic...](http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutesText.aspx?article=gfl&section=5-701&ext=html&session=2015RS&tab=subject5)

~~~
diyorgasms
What CPS is asking is that the parents prove a negative. The burden of proof
should be on CPS to make a claim and offer evidence. What are the parents
supposed to say? "And on the thirtieth of November, we spent an hour not
neglecting our children"?

If not enough evidence exists to determine that neglect was happening, then
these parents should not have CPS retaining a file on their "unsubstantiated"
neglect for the next 5 years.

------
pjmorris
I went and looked up my old (1970's) elementary school walk... between 1 and
1.2 miles.

~~~
acdha
I just did the same thing for the late-80s/early 90s: elementary school was
0.8 & then 0.5mi (often bicycle on city streets for extra child-endangerment
paranoia) and by middle school that was 1.9 miles along a major road past the
mall.

Nobody we knew even blinked an eye…

~~~
eru
I remember we even had bicycling lessons in primary school to encourage
independent biking to school (in Germany).

~~~
acdha
I'm sure California was a bit of an outlier nationally but we had similar
encouragement citing environmental and health grounds. It's an easy sell when
the weather's fine for cycling roughly 360 days a year.

------
chrisbennet
Is the world that much more dangerous than it was in the 70's or is the media
just making us more aware of every rare but horrible thing that happens?

Do people/politicians then feel they "need to do something" even if it's the
wrong thing?

~~~
spc476
I'm thinking the 24-hour news cycle has some part to play in this. They have
to fill the time with _something, anything_ and so what might have been a
local story fifty years ago is now national news.

------
gbog
This article is quite interesting, and I hope to let my kids have this kind of
environment. I'd like to underline here that this kind of parenting is very
different from the one shown in a recent post about some 11yo kids watching
Alien at home [1].

Watching horror movies is safe for the body, and not recommended for the
emotional brain [2]. Exact opposite of these wild playgrounds.

1\.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9127761](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9127761)

2\. Why? It seems obvious to me. Seeing very frightening or disgusting things
in movies may make you overreact when facing similar disgusts in real life, or
being too easily afraid. After seeing a horror movie as a kid you are afraid
of monsters below your bed, afraid of darkness which may have monsters or
ghosts. This is not the kind of fear that is even slightly useful. I suppose
most of the ghosts stories of the past were actually useful: they prevented
kids and adults from going out in the night, where they could be endangered
for real. But nowadays no wolves haunt the nights anymore. It may be rational
to induce a little bit of fear for cars when walking, so kids keep at safe
distance. But I see no reason to raise the fears of the unknown and foreign as
done in most horror movie.

Another example is food: fear your plate and you're stomack will be in despair
and show (either anorexia or obesity), trust your plate and you're stomack
will do it's work properly: which is to keep you in normal shape. (I was so
annoyed by this american girl always asking what was the dish made of in the
plate: you're in China my girl, dishes are made of hundreds of mysterious
things, including pig oil, msg, sichuan pepper, etc. But check the other girls
beside you, they're fit, they love to eat, do it all the time, so please just
eat this and enjoy it...)

------
brandonmenc
Another story illustrating the disturbing trend of mandatory bureaucratic
process. Entities run by expert systems instead of humans - CPS seems to be
one of the worst offenders.

When people executing the law do it without discretion, watch out.

------
brent_noorda
I was investigated for allowing my child to play in the schoolyard across the
street without shoes on. The investigation went on for weeks and was extremely
stressful, for both parent and child.

------
iopq
When I was 10 years old I would stay out until 1 am or later hanging out with
friends. I'd be outside most of the day without supervision.

------
joesmo
Is there any wonder why kids are becoming increasingly obese nowadays when
their parents won't allow them to walk anywhere?

Not to mention all the other ill effects detailed in the other comments.

------
andyl
When I was 12 we'd go on hundred mile bike rides and be gone for days. No
cellphones.

30 years later, it felt as if my 12 year olds were prisoners in an electronic
cage.

From what I can tell, this is a worldwide pattern. Friends in EUR and AUS
report similar phenomenon.

Times change. I hope it is for the best.

~~~
Iv
Japan here. In Tokyo you see kids younger than 10 take the subway alone to go
home.

~~~
tokenadult
My oldest son (now an adult, and a participant here once in a while) used to
take the subway by himself in Taipei at age eight. Once a child has taken a
few rides with parents to and from the same stations, and especially if the
child is literate (to be expected by that age, for that purpose), there's not
much reason for the child to miss out on using the subway.

------
shit_parade
What a comedy, and the State strikes again, better behave citizens and do as
your government tells you or else they will take away your children and/or put
you in jail. You've been warned, and a file has been opened, the State is
always watching.

