
I quit my job last March and it was a bad idea. - mannicken
Hey guys.<p>I created this (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2374271).<p>Well, I did quit my full-time job. I wish I could say it was 'the best single thing I've ever done' or 'why haven't I done it earlier' but I'm not going to say it. Just to offer the other side of the perspective. And because it wouldn't be honest and I don't give nearly enough fuck to be dishonest. Yeah, seriously, what do I have to lose?<p>It was a bad idea. I moved back with my parents, my freelancing thing barely works, I'm constantly broke, on the verge of poverty, I'm deeply depressed and contemplating suicide. I have to constantly hear my father shout what an idiot I am for quitting a high-paying job. My friends make fun of me for making a retarded life decision. I can't really do anything else, since apparently finding a new job, is kind of hard and I have to go through the whole step where I admit my failure and start over and I don't even know what I want anymore.<p>I thought I would become free, but I've actually become less free as a result of it.<p>Essentially, shit is very hard and I barely have any idea on how to get out of this mess. What doesn't make it any easier is that I'm 20, I have no college diploma, no high school diploma, no idea what the fuck is going on.<p>I'm an idiot, essentially. This post serves mainly as a warning for those who could be in the same position, contemplating quitting. It's not as much fun as you think. It's not like Office Space. I'm not saying you shouldn't quit, but you should really put more thought into it.<p>And fuck, I even had enough savings for four months after quitting. I thought a lot of things through, includes finances etc. I even managed to live by myself for the entire four months until I finally gave in and couldn't pay the rent.<p>It just didn't work out and it feels very painful.
======
mrspeaker
It might sound snarky to NHers - but I'd suggest staying away from Hacker News
too: the get-rich-quick stories have a habit of getting under your skin and
making everything sound easy. But striking gold with your startup is like
becoming a rockstar - you only see the rockstars, not the zillions of
failures.

Though, don't forget that failing is fantastic (and painful): it means that
you're trying to do something challenging, unlike the people who will give you
shit about it. Failing gives you character and experience - as someone much
older than 20 I can say that people with these qualities are rare to come by
in day to day life!

~~~
mechanical_fish
_I'd suggest staying away from Hacker News too_

This may be good advice, but I think the more general form is even better
advice: _Don't rely on the internet for hanging out._

Make contact with real people in real life, whether or not they are hackers.
You are human, you need human contact. That's a big part of the definition of
what it _means_ to be human: We're one of the most social creatures on Earth;
we're designed for communication.

Depression is real. And trying to be a solo freelancer in your basement is a
form of solitary confinement, and that is bad for your health.

At the very least, get ye to a coffee shop or a library on a daily basis!

Also, because every comment in this thread should really include a citation of
jgrahamc: Find counseling. Seek advice. You can't think yourself out of
depression. It's not like solving a puzzle.

------
jgrahamc

      I'm deeply depressed and contemplating suicide
    

If you are having suicidal thoughts then please talk to someone about that
now. There are lots of people you can talk to.

No matter where you are you can visit <http://www.befrienders.org/>

~~~
Jach
Did you ever see the Malcolm in the Middle episode where Lois tries to use
therapist techniques such as parroting on Malcolm? (S5E15 - page 6
[http://www.malcolminthemiddle.co.uk/episodes/transcripts/eng...](http://www.malcolminthemiddle.co.uk/episodes/transcripts/english/pdf/5x15-REESES-
APARTMENT-TRANSCRIPT-MITMVC.pdf) ) There's another (S2E8) where Malcolm fakes
a breakdown so he can get out of a dorky class thing by talking to the school
counselor. (Ed: I don't mean this as evidence, just a comedic primer for the
general idea.)

I think a lot of people who read HN are in the same pseudo-category. They're
smarter than the people they'd talk to. They don't need someone to listen
because they can talk/write to themselves--some people find that scary to do,
and talking with others is very helpful! And for volunteer things it's
incredibly likely a person on HN knows more about psychology than the
volunteer and can help themselves more-so by learning about why they feel the
way they feel instead of repeating stuff they already say to themselves to a
passive listener who may just repeat it back. I think a lot of therapy is
about helping people to introspect, but the tech-crowd members tend to do that
on their own. I'd rather talk to an actual friend who physically cares (as
opposed to abstractly cares like a volunteer or someone you pay) anyway.

~~~
jgrahamc
This comment completely misses the point about depression. A person who is
actually depressed is likely to need assistance navigating out of that state.
Being smart etc. isn't the cure.

~~~
Jach
I agree smartness isn't sufficient for a cure, and sometimes drugs are
necessary, but neither is just "talking to someone" which is what Befrienders
states: "We work worldwide to provide emotional support, and reduce suicide.
We listen to people who are in distress. We don't judge them or tell them what
to do - we listen." I'm certain what they do is a good idea but I think it's
just a cached piece of advice that works well for most people.

If you can talk to the right person, then sure, it's going to help more than
talking to yourself. The right people are few and far between even among paid
therapists, some of which are paid commissions on how many drug prescriptions
they give, and a random person is incredibly unlikely to be the right person.
Where smartness comes in handy is that a smart person can do the relevant
research for their particular case.

My own opinion is that a lot of the "best practices" and so on are aimed
mainly at extroverts, and similarly educational practices are aimed at
whatever majority group of student-types you can describe there. (Techniques
hackers would love in school don't seem to work well on the general
population.)

~~~
dpark
No, just no. Having a sympathetic person listen and provide good advice can be
extremely valuable. And these things do not require anything but the attention
of someone who cares, who maybe has gone through the same thing. These people
are not few and far between, and they are not random.

Also, therapists cannot prescribe drugs. No one with the ability to write a
prescription calls themselves a therapist. And I seriously doubt that anyone
who can prescribe drugs gets paid a commission for doing so. That would almost
certainly be considered a massive ethics violation.

~~~
Jach
Sorry about the wrong term, though I think it was clear from context. s/paid
therapist/psychiatrist practicing psychotherapy/.

If you don't believe the medical industry suffers from the same problems as
the political industry, with "sales reps" taking on the roles of "lobbyists",
you should do some googling. Here's a nice database:
<http://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/>

~~~
dpark
There's a lot of difference between a therapist and a psychiatrist. There's
even more difference between getting paid on commission and being wooed by
lobbyists. Having doctors influenced by lobbyists is almost certainly a
negative overall, but it's nowhere close to having doctors literally paid on
commission for writing prescriptions.

~~~
a3camero
"As part of that promotion, Allergan provided kickbacks to doctors in the form
of cash, travel, and meals and held seminars instructing physicians on how to
bill Medicare for off-label procedures. "

[http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/settlement-
in...](http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/settlement-in-botox-
case/settlement-in-botox-case)

~~~
dpark
If the FBI prosecutes for it, it doesn't really count. That's kind of like
saying you can't eat at a restaurant because some chefs poison their
customers. Sure, but it's illegal and not the typical state of affairs.

I don't believe that kickbacks are common (I'll change my stance if evidence
shows that they are wide-spread), even for on-label uses. I'm pretty sure
they're still considered a serious ethics violation and probably illegal.

~~~
a3camero
I'm sure you're right.

A slightly different twist: a friend of mine is a pharmacist and he was
decrying the end of free lunches provided by pharma companies after he
finished first year (a few years ago). The influence of drug companies may
exert is a recognized problem, even where it doesn't take the cash for
prescription model (that I agree with you is probably illegal but I haven't
looked into it). I do think it's likely though that there are creative ways
out there that drug companies have come up with to encourage prescriptions.

------
revorad
I was feeling really sad for you until I read this: _What doesn't make it any
easier is that I'm 20_

Relax. Get a job at the supermarket, or anything that will pay the bills for
now. Figure out your main gig slowly on the side. If you share more about your
freelancing work, people here might be able to help you out.

~~~
insickness
I have to disagree. The fact that he's 20 does not lessen his depression.
Depression comes when your status in life is drastically lowered. It comes
from moving down the pecking order. It's relative. In other words, if all
you've ever had is a job working as a cashier in a supermarket, you may not
feel as depressed as if you had a job as an IT manager and got demoted to
desktop support--or got laid off. He did have a high-paying IT job and now
seems to have nothing. Yes, he's young and can get back in the game easier,
but the way he feels is human tendency.

~~~
slantyyz
_Depression comes when your status in life is drastically lowered._

I thought that depression was the result of a chemical imbalance. It might be
worthwhile to seek the help of a healthcare professional to help treat it
before it gets any worse.

~~~
kragen
> I thought that depression was the result of a chemical imbalance.

Lots of credulous suckers think that. Might turn out to be true eventually,
but for now, we just don't know:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_imbalance>

------
edw519
_I did quit my full-time job._

So did I. Many times. About half the time it worked out great. The other half,
it sucked, just like yours does now. You are not alone.

 _I'm constantly broke, on the verge of poverty..._

Then get a job, any job. It doesn't have to be programming. It'll get you out
of the house, get you with other people, and put a few bucks in your pocket.
If you love programming enough, you'll find time to keep it going on the side.

 _I'm deeply depressed and contemplating suicide_

Don't. Contact me anytime (see my profile). When things are going well,
they're never as good as they seem. When they are going poorly, they're never
as bad as they seem.

 _I have to constantly hear my father shout what an idiot I am for quitting a
high-paying job_

Fathers are sometimes wrong. Yours is now. Don't listen to him.

 _My friends make fun of me for making a retarded life decision._

When things get tough, you find out who you're friends really are. I know it's
not much consolation, but you just did. Be glad you saved a lot of time and
energy. Anyone who makes fun of you was never your friend, just an
acquaintence.

 _I can't really do anything else, since apparently finding a new job, is kind
of hard and I have to go through the whole step where I admit my failure and
start over and I don't even know what I want anymore._

Don't ever say "can't" because it's not true. You can. Just find any job and
go from there. First you crawl, then you walk, then you run. Many of us have
already been there. You can do it too.

 _I thought I would become free, but I've actually become less free as a
result of it._

So far. What you don't see now since you are in the midst of this is that this
was just one backward (or sideways) step in a long journey forward. I don't
know anyone who is successful that had only forward steps. We have all had
these backward steps. It sounds like this may have been your first big one.
That might be why it hurts so much.

 _I'm 20, I have no college diploma, no high school diploma, ..._

None of that matters. All that really matters is what's inside your head and
your heart. Once you decide to start taking positive steps, you'll see.

 _I'm an idiot, essentially._

Please don't ever say that. You're not, and I have proof: If you were really
an idiot, then you wouldn't have posted this here.

 _It just didn't work out and it feels very painful._

Thanks for the warning. You may have just saved a lot of people a lot of pain
with this post.

And thanks for your story. I have been there (several times) as I imagine many
others here have as well. It gets better. I promise. But you have to stop
feeling miserable and take a positive step. Posting here was your first step.
Talking to some of us off-line may be another. And getting out of the house
and finding a job, any job, is probably your next best step.

Please give it a shot a keep us posted. We're not going anywhere and we care.
Really.

~~~
jlees
_Then get a job, any job. It doesn't have to be programming. It'll get you out
of the house, get you with other people, and put a few bucks in your pocket.
If you love programming enough, you'll find time to keep it going on the
side._

Totally second the "any job" part. I'd go as far as to say try to do something
that isn't programming. Speaking from experience, sometimes the reason
freelancing isn't going so well is some degree of burnout, and sometimes it's
been the fact that although I _thought_ it was what I wanted to do, really it
was the only skill I had that I was qualified to freelance with, so it felt
like having a job - but worse.

If you can't find something mindless to do that provides a new perspective and
a new social circle, try to switch up what you're doing daily; write a blog,
draw, whatever appeals to you.

~~~
joezydeco
You may also find that working in an area unrelated to computers you'll find
an idea for a project or niche business that will work. There are lots of
businesses that need engineers and programmers to help them but can't figure
out where to look first.

~~~
mirkules
You nailed it. As an example, recently I got back into music, started playing
with a band, and then it hit me - there is an opportunity to make some iPad
apps to help when on stage and in the practice studio.

You can spend your life as an engineer always looking for other people's
problems to solve, and always running out of motivation. When you have your
own problem to solve, out of necessity or convenience, the motivation is there
by default.

~~~
joezydeco
From personal experience, there's also this great moment of pride that comes
when you hand someone a tool they've been dying for and it works exactly as
they wanted it.

You are (momentarily) a genius, a god, a lifesaver. Until they find the first
bug, then it's back to business. =)

------
alttag
I'm surprised how many people here aren't suggesting more formal education.
Only about one-third of Americans have a college degree. Getting one will set
you apart. I think the tech field is a bit unique in its disdain for formal
education—but throughout your career you're likely work with people for which
it matters.

Self-driven learning is good (essential, I'd argue), but paying money to learn
is a good motivator too. It'll get you (OP) out of the house, meeting people,
and challenge you in fields you might not otherwise explore. Some important
concepts are easier to grok with a good instructor. (Algorithms comes to
mind.)

There's the side benefit that being a student opens you up to federal grants
and loans (in the U.S.). Don't go overboard with the debt (I'd suggest not
more than a year or so of borrowing), but it can help get you out of a bad
place. Many universities also have student jobs, so finding work in that
environment might be a little easier than otherwise. They also have career
centers that will help polish a resume and refine interview skills.

Figure out what you love to do. Look for a job where you get to do it. In the
mean time, any job will do.

Lastly, as others have said here, you're a more than competent writer. If you
enjoy doing it, maybe you've a career option there. In the meantime, keep a
journal. Not only is the process cathartic, it forces you to be reflective.

~~~
alttag
Also, tinyproj, a site featured here recently, has weekly lists of freelancing
opportunities. Maybe something there will help tide you over.

------
generalk
Everyone seems to be posting long, drawn-out responses to everything you said,
but I just want to touch on one point.

You're _twenty years old._ Maybe quitting your job was a bad move, maybe it
was a good move that you just can't see the bright side of yet, but in any
event you've got _plenty of time_ to figure out what to do.

And, bonus, you know what financial hardship is like. I know a lot of folks
that won't take big risks because they're afraid of losing their savings. Not
a problem for you, it happened once and you know you can survive it.

~~~
iamgoat
Agreed. 20 years is nothing. Assuming he doesn't have a wife and kids he has
nothing to worry about. Plenty of time ahead for improvements, which mostly
comes from learning more diverse things AND networking more.

------
Tyrannosaurs
I think you're being tough on yourself. You're not an idiot, you just took a
risk that didn't pay off, but that's part of how we learn.

Looking back at your other post that was a shitty situation and the desire to
get out of there must have been pretty strong. Maybe I'm wrong but when you're
under that sort of pressure and that unhappy, any alternative can look good
and it can be hard to work out what the right way forward is.

Personally I'd look back at what was happening before you quit and why you
quit. Understand that, understand that decision and what you can learn from
it. Then look at what happened after you quit and what you can learn from
that.

Then take all that and draw a line under it. Seriously, learn what you can and
move on. There is nothing to be gained by beating yourself up so take those
lessons and start looking at what you do next and how you can avoid repeating
the situation.

But genuinely thanks for posting this. I think sometimes it's easy to get
carried away with the whole "quit, go it alone" ethos and not see the other
side. The reality is that most small businesses and start ups struggle or
fail, and freelancing can be tough, especially at first, so it's a realistic
chance that if you go out on your own then that'll be the situation you face.
Sometimes we forget that so while it's been painful for you, hopefully someone
else will benefit.

Fingers crossed that you manage to take this experience and turn it into
something useful.

------
oomkiller
You're 20? You have your whole life ahead of you, get back on the grind and
make it happen! It may feel hopeless now, but I assure you it's not. I'd bet
you have skills that other people would love to have, you just need to figure
out how to better apply them.

Don't give up, hard work pays off, I was in your exact situation or worse when
I was your age :) (I'm 23 now and have turned it around)

Oh, and parents say things like that, ignore or fight them, it doesn't matter,
just don't let it get to you. If you have friends that make fun of you, you
are either misinterpreting what they are saying or they are not actually your
friends. In the latter case, get rid of these people, they are harmful to your
psyche.

Get in touch if you need more help, talk to the people around you too, people
care more than you expect

~~~
iforget
Contribute something he hasn't heard a thousand times from after school
specials. Seriously. Harsh but necessary.

~~~
oomkiller
Sometimes it takes an actual person who has actually experienced this to tell
you for it to actually click, I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense to you.

~~~
iforget
And it takes an actual person who has actually experienced this to tell you
boilerplate "Cheer up champ! People love you! Get help!" comments are
worthless. Check.

~~~
electrichead
So instead we should adopt your attitude and lash out at everyone on this page
trying to help? I've been in this situation as well and can closely relate to
what he has said. I'm 31 now but life seemed pretty hopeless when I was 20
with few options. I also chose to move back home and went back to school for a
few years and then was able to freelance and got lucky. I also had pressure
issues with my Dad. These things happen to other people too. It's boilerplate
because it works. Nobody is saying "cheer up", I'm reading more "hang in
there" from the comments. The struggle is necessary in order to get to a stage
where you are able to see the situation with perspective.

------
thaumaturgy
So, here's my story; I tell it occasionally when stories like yours come up.

I had no college experience, but did manage to jump right in to a good I.T.
job while I was still in high school, and from there into an even better I.T.
job in another state where I made more money than I knew what to do with.
(I've never been good with money, and didn't understand what "savings" meant.)
I worked there until suddenly one day I went on a camping trip with family,
came back, and decided I hated computers. I quit that job, and the industry.

Then the dotcom bust happened.

So, at about your age, there I am, living back with my parents. They at least
were supportive, but it took me a while to get my feet back under me. I took
some simple jobs, took up rock climbing as a hobby, eventually became a
climbing instructor, learned a whole bunch of skills but got paid next to
nothing.

Eventually all of the credit I had amassed during my previous life in I.T. ran
out, and I was deeply in debt with not enough income to manage it. My parents
had moved away, and I ended up moving with them. Again.

Not my proudest moment.

It took months, applying to nearly every job and place of business in the
area, but eventually I got a simple retail job. I lied about my past
experience so that they wouldn't tell me I was overqualified to operate a cash
register.

I let my bank accounts and credit fall apart. There was nothing I could do
about it but start over. So I did.

Eventually, I was ready to re-join I.T. and happened by dumb luck across the
perfect job opening for me -- about 6 hours' drive away. I patched up my car
enough to get me there, and took with me the bag of spare change I had
accumulated over a year or so.

The boss and I hit it off, and I got the job. It was one of the most
challenging jobs I've ever had -- I was a one-man I.T. department for a store
& restaurant that had no budget for anything fancy. All patchwork, all the
time. I had gotten pretty good at that by then.

I was homeless at that point and my car barely got me there, but I happened to
have some friends in the area so I stayed on their couch and made up for it by
cleaning while I was at home. My first paycheck got me living expenses, the
second got me the new radiator that my car needed, and so on.

Several years later, I've gone through a couple more jobs (a step up each
time), started my own business, my credit is slowly rebuilding, the business
is supporting two other people. It's still a struggle every day, but it's an
uphill struggle. Every year is better than the last.

So, if your friends are giving you a hard time, tell 'em to knock it the hell
off. Or find new friends. You've made a mistake -- maybe, you won't really
know for sure for years -- but you have an opportunity to gain experiences
that others never will. If I had never been a climbing instructor, I never
would have developed the people skills that I needed to be an effective
manager, let alone a business owner. You don't know what the future holds, so
there's no sense in admitting defeat yet.

I won't try to lie to you, the next few years could be rough. Real rough.
There could be an awful lot of days where you don't want to get out of bed,
you don't want to do anything. Depression certainly doesn't make it any easier
-- I know that from experience, too. But, if you keep trying anyway, you may
discover that your best days are ahead of you yet.

Also, you're really not an idiot. People that never take a risk rarely end up
in great places in life. You took a risk, it hasn't worked out so far. But,
you didn't know what was going to happen before you did it. An idiotic
decision is one that you know is bad when you make it. Unless you have an
unusual power of foresight, you're not an idiot for making the decision you
made.

Keep working on the freelancing. Keep getting better, keep making connections
with other people. You have to become very aggressive now; it's not like a
regular job where somebody else is doing the marketing and management for you
and setting a schedule. Learn to start recognizing little victories. If you
made enough money this week to pay a bill that you couldn't pay last week,
that's a victory. Learn to get good at operating within razor-thin margins.
Make sure you take a real hard look at all of your expenses; people that
aren't accustomed to this style of living often have expenses that they
believe they must have. At one point, my expenses were literally: food, and
gas for the car. And that was _it_. I had no bank account, I got my checks
cashed at the grocery store, I kept the cash in my wallet with a little extra
hidden at my crash space (because paranoia), and so I knew exactly how much
money I had to spend and live off of. If I had an extra $20 come payday, that
was a real good week.

If you're lucky enough to be in an area with good public transit, ditch your
car. Those things are money sinks. The moment you can't afford your insurance
or registration, you will get pulled over. It's like magic, really bad magic.
And the fines and fees just pile up, and there are no sympathetic ears when
that starts happening.

Let go of everything that you think you have to hold on to -- your sense of
importance, of self-worth, anything that might be holding you back or keeping
you from making the hard decisions that have to be made -- and just decide
that you'll buy it all back later.

Then just take your life one day at a time for a while.

~~~
LiveTheDream
> At one point, my expenses were literally: food, and gas for the car. And
> that was it. I had no bank account, I got my checks cashed at the grocery
> store

How much were you paying to cash your checks at the grocery store? This is
more expensive than depositing the check in a bank or credit union (I think
it's on the level of payday loans, gouging lower income because they don't
understand the relative size of the fee).

> So, if your friends are giving you a hard time, tell 'em to knock it the
> hell off. Or find new friends

Knock it off, maybe. Find new friends? That seems silly. Grow a thicker skin
and joke right back at them.

~~~
pyre

      > Find new friends? That seems silly.
    

With friends like that, who needs enemies? I mean the guy is down in the
dumps, "rock bottom" if you like, and his friends are attempting to kick him
while he's down to elevate their own self-esteem a bit. And you think that
this is a good set of people to be around?

Also advice like, "grow a thicker skin" to someone that's in the throes of
depression, might as well be advice to, "just stop being depressed."

------
sthatipamala
Please don't do anything to hurt yourself. If you need support, call
1-800-273-TALK (National Suicide Prevention Lifeline).

On another note: is it possible to get a part-time cashier job and go to
community college? (I know you don't have a HS diploma but I'm under the
impression that some CCs have programs for that.) An community college degree
will give you some type of education certification that employers appreciate.

You seem well-spoken and you were able to hold a job at a high-pressure
company before. I hope you will find greater success soon. I am rooting for
you.

------
krmmalik
You're experiencing what Seth Godin calls "The Dip" - There has to be some
hardship endured before you come out looking good on the other side. You
really are being way too hard on yourself. If you were mature enough to take a
risk at the age of 20 then it shows you're well on your way to hedge other
bets in life for the long term. That's a very good mark of a successful
person. Only thing is, you're giving up a little soon. Dont let things wear
you down.

Success takes time.

Wish you well ;-)

PS. Just for the purposes of consolation. I went through something similar at
your age. Im now 30 and while i dont feel as suffocated as i used to, i know
exactly how you feel. It does get better. I assure you. I dont regret (for the
large part) the decision that i made. I just wish i had had the courage to be
even bolder with my choices, and sooner.

~~~
mannicken
"The Dip" does seem to exist. The worst and most painful part of the long
distance race is at its end but if you get through that, you feel much better.
And in the end you are better after the race than before it, in all terms.

------
jwingy
Considering how crappy your previous job sounded, I don't think the people
around you really understand how bad it was.

That being said, like someone pointed out, you're only 20 and still have tons
of time and energy to expend on something you truly want to work on. It's
easier for me to say this than for you to do it, but you need to find
something deep inside that will give you the resiliency to keep fighting and
working on what you believe in. I know it's difficult to shut out the
naysayers, but that's precisely what you need to have the ability to do if you
want to be able to build a startup.

Honestly, if you think staying at your previous job was going to make you
happier, I think you're deluding yourself. Not saying it's all flowers and
sunshine on this side, but I think you can take heart in the fact that you're
actually trying to pursue true happiness compared to many other people who
know they're unhappy with their lives, but are too afraid to make a change
because they're too comfortable with their lifestyle and the status quo. It
won't be easy, but there's almost nothing in life that is easy. Take comfort
in the fact that there are tons of us out there struggling like you are but
are still fighting and scrapping along. Fight and don't give up. You're not
the only one :)

------
chris_dcosta
Quitting that job probably saved your life, although I know it looks different
at the moment.

Remember what it was like working so hard your body could not keep up? Well
guess what, that's when accidents happen. Serious ones. Just be thankful you
got out when you did.

Sounds like you're in good company here anyway.

I had a really tough job too once. Everyone in the company was at each other's
throats, and management made one public decision, and the privately overturned
them without informing anyone i.e. me even though I was the dept head. It was
chaos beyond beleif. I got fired, It happened just before the crisis, and it
turned my world upside down for a while.

I know what you mean when family and friends aren't supportive, especially if
they haven't gone through what you did, and can't see why you shouldn't just
be back on your feet again.

But I suppose you're here at HN because you're involved or want to be involved
in start-ups or something. If you are, just keep plugging away at it. It's
probably the one thing that'll really keep you sane.

------
ErrantX
This is the risk in asking for, and taking, the advice of an online forum.
Especially a place where the people who hang out tend to be fast moving and
with a quick, brutal approach to problems such as that you describe.

That's not outright blame for you; we're as much at fault for taking one part
of the info and giving you advice on it - no one in the thread seemed to couch
their advice with "but talk to your friends/family" etc. Which is probably
part of the problem.

You mention the idea of freelancing as a revenue to keep you going; but it is
not clear a) what your experience is and b) how much research you did into
doing that sort of work as freelance. This is usually killer; I quit an OK job
once to go freelance - it didn't work out because I didn't do the work.

 _Tell us about your skills - someone here on HN will likely have some work
for you_

Don't get depressed though; you're probably feeling like a failure, but
realistically you were in a bad place and decided to try something radical to
fix it. That hasn't worked - so try something else!

The suggestion below to go work in a supermarket while you build up freelance
work & side projects is a good one. There is nothing wrong with manual labour,
especially in your 20's. And if you are worried about being stuck there long
term - constantly work _not_ to be there long term.

Building a career is fucking hard. It sounds like you had a lucky break
initially - a well paid job. But for a high trade off (horrible working
conditions). Now you have to do like the rest of us :)

I'm guessing you were sold the "get rich quick" and "quitting my job was the
best thing..." idea. This is an unfortunate side effect of HN... because it
largely doesn't work - and certainly not without intense effort and drive.

Your 20; this is a setback, but it's certainly not the end. In 30 years time
there is _no reason_ it couldn't be you interviewing with Time, and telling
them that this was the failure that drove you from them on - or something
(note; a lot of work required!).

And tell the people abusing you to get lost; sounds like they are a large part
of your pain/depression & likely what it holding you back.

Maybe volunteer for one of those charity trips - go build a school somewhere
away from the people that are getting you down. Meet new people, get new
ideas. etc.

------
newz2000
You are not alone. I've given this advice to several 18-23 year old men:

Jobs are like girlfriends. I'm not trying to be sexist, I'm just speaking from
my own perspective as a man. When I was in school, girls I was interested
didn't seem interested in me. But then I got a girlfriend. All of a sudden,
the girls who wouldn't talk to me started talking to me. It was weird. I'm not
saying be a player, I firmly believe that when dating or buying gadgets, once
you make a commitment, shopping around will only make you unhappy.

But not with Jobs. Just get a job. Any job. Work at a gas station or bus
tables. Do something. You'll feel better about yourself and you take some of
the pressure off yourself. And there is some magical aspect to having a job
that makes you seem more interesting to employers, kind of like my analogy
above with the girlfriend.

In addition to that, consider getting a degree. An AA would be great, a BA/BS
would be better. It saddens me that a piece of paper is so important, but
that's life. If you're not the type who excels in an institution then figure
out ways to get real world experience. If you're a programmer I'd say do some
open source development.

Do this in addition to getting a job. As the good book says, "Anyone not
willing to work doesn't get to eat." (2 Thes 3:10)

------
pm
1\. Suicide. Everyone responded as they should. But if you meant it, this post
wouldn't exist because you'd be hanging from a rafter right now. Just a
thought.

2\. Your job sucked. Quitting was right.

3\. Admit failure at freelancing. Build character.

4\. Survive. Go out and get any job you can find. It will give you focus and
get you out of the house, away from the bullshit.

5\. Get your head straight. Analyse what went wrong. Do it differently, or not
at all.

6\. Get new friends. Can't get new family, though.

There's no safe route to success.

~~~
ikarous
"Suicide. Everyone responded as they should. But if you meant it, this post
wouldn't exist because you'd be hanging from a rafter right now. Just a
thought."

You obviously mean well, but this statement bespeaks ignorance about suicide
prevention. Most but not all suicides are preceded by warning signs, and
talking about it openly automatically places the speaker in the high risk
category.

The intent to kill one's self begins with ideation and grows from there. At
first, idle thoughts about killing yourself begin to drift through your mind
at random. Driving down the freeway, out of fucking nowhere, you imagine
yourself veering into oncoming traffic. Or maybe you're in the kitchen taking
an Advil and the thought comes to your mind, unbidden, to just down the whole
god damn bottle and chase it down with vodka.

These images are like demons, and they are not easy to exorcise. As the
imagery and impulses grow more intense and vivid, some victims will say
something to offer a clue to those around them or to ask for help. The problem
is that this warning often doesn't seem serious because the victim is so torn
between two conflicting desires: 1) the desire to end suffering, and 2) the
desire to live.

You see, the crux is this: just because someone doesn't want to die doesn't
mean that they won't kill themselves. If they're talking about it, then you
should treat it as though they're asking for help. I missed the same warning
sign because I thought just as you did, that those serious about suicide would
be dead rather than talking about it. I was wrong. The only thing that saved
her was luck. Luck and a responsive ER.

Take it seriously.

------
chrisrickard
"It just didn't work out and it feels very painful."

There is a lot of good advice in this thread already, but if you were my mate
and we were chatting over a beer at the pub - I would say this to you:

It sucks man, im really sorry it didn't work out. BUT irrespective of the
result - you learnt some important things. Two very big things specifically:
1. you have the gusto to pursue your dreams, and 2. you have the smarts to
realise things aren't working out (and admit it to yourself.. and HN)

I know that 'learning things' doesn't make you feel any better right now...
but you have done something millions of people spend there whole lives
dreaming about... and I for one applaud you.

In regards to freelancing not working out - it's a tough thing man.. i have
personally never been able to do it (successfully) for very long, and
realistically not many people can.

My advice would be to start looking for a job - but a job that you find fun.
Maybe look for a startup that is doing something you find cool? Pour your
heart out in your cover letter... even if they don't have a position
advertised - just email them and show them your passion. I have done this
twice - and some people really respect it.

good luck dude - all the best.

------
VonLipwig
It sounds like you have done it wrong. Your original job sounded horrible. For
your sanity, quitting was the only way forward.

However, I don't see what kind of net you put in place for when you quit. You
don't appear to have lined up another job. You mentioned freelancing but you
don't specify how much time you spent trying to kick start that before leaving
your paid job.

At the end of the day, if you jump ship you need some sort of raft to stay
afloat. Going from paid work to nothing is really hard as you loose your
salary then have to spend an unknown amount of time trying to get something
going. It is far better to get something at least moving before quitting a job
and putting time in it.

I haven't read what the rest of the responses say here but I say stop being a
pansie. Get your life together. Decide if you want to go into employment or
continue self employed. Dedicate 60 hours a week to making whatever you decide
work.

You are where you are, stop dwelling on it. Decide what you want to do next..
make it happen.

Or stay at home, disappoint your parents, have difficulty finding a lady
friend and become a bum. Its up to you.

------
elisee
You seem to be surrounded by people having a very bad influence on your state
of mind (insulting father, friends mocking you).

Think about it for a minute, how would you feel if the people around you where
understanding and kind? You'd think you made a choice that didn't work out,
and that you need to get on your feet and move on. But instead you get all
this bad stress from the outside!

Try to tell them it's serious, that all this means a lot to you and you need
their support. That you can't take what basically amounts to constant
emotional harassment. It might help them realize they're doing more harm than
good.

But you can't decide for them, they might just keep at it. So the second step
is spending more time with the people who care about you and won't make you
feel like crap. What you hear all day everyday has a lot of influence on your
outlook on life, hang around with positive-minded people, and tell the others
you don't need their hate / insults. And be sure that hosting you doesn't give
your parents a right to judge you.

------
matwood
First, you're far from poverty. You might be poor right now, but you have a
place to live and presumably food to eat. You also have the skills to make
money.

With no HS or college diploma what kind of 'high paying' job did you quit? If
you were good enough to get that job and make it work before, your resume
should show that now. I know the job market is rough right now, but companies
are still hiring people who get shit done.

You're only 20. 20! You don't even want to know all the idiotic things I did
in my early 20s. You're at the age when you're supposed to make mistakes, and
learn from them. Don't let this setback get you down. Just keep pushing
forward. As the saying goes, 'when going through hell, keep going!'

Oh, and your _friends_. Dump them. They aren't real friends if they make fun
of you for taking this risk. Most friendships are very short lived anyways
(another thing that's hard to know at 20), so don't let them get you down.

------
kitsune_
I think I know what you're going through because my early 20's were a mess.
People telling you that you're still young might sound shallow, but damn it,
it's true.

The path to adulthood is different and difficult for everyone. As a human
being you make decisions throughout your life, and in hindsight, some of these
decisions turn out to be mistakes. You need to make these mistakes in order to
find what is right for you. Find what is important to you.

The worst thing that could happen to you is that this experience somehow makes
you do something against your own nature, for instance laboring away in a
cubicle for the next 40 years because you are too afraid to fail again.

You are twenty years of age, you will work a many jobs in your life, you will
fall in and out of love, you might get your college degree with 50, maybe you
will travel Europe and open a bed & breakfast across the ocean. Who knows but
you?

------
0x12
Get a job, any job, now. No matter how low, just get one. Flip burgers,
whatever you can do and regain the most important thing that you seem to have
lost, which is your self respect.

Higher paying jobs will come and at some point you'll be able to review this
period from a position of strength and you'll appreciate what you learned more
than you do now. Starting a consultancy business takes _3 years_ , you can't
just stop work one day and expect to stay afloat. That's the only mistake that
I think you made, 4 months is way too short.

The first year you lose money, the second you break even (but you're still
below 0 because of the first year), the third year you might make some money
closing the hole of the first year.

And get yourself some professional help, being suicidal is a really good
reason to do so. Don't wait.

------
franze
a story, my story

i quit my job, a good job, i was (web) business developer, had to oversee a
few coders, code a little bit myself, tell other companies what they should
code for us, talked in big meetings, had a great time with my boss and co-
workers and the prospect of becoming a COO in time.

i quit, it was 2004, i was 26 and the web was in a shitty state (this was
before web 2.0 and IE had 90 market share). i wanted to do something else.
start my own company. i had a lot of ideas and a high quality half baked plan.

the first day of my self-employment i jumped over a wall, broke my knee,
badly. i was in hospital for 2 months. i could not walk for 4 months. my
mother is dead, i do not talk to my father much. i had a 6 year old child.

after this i was broke, i was more than broke.

i decided to get a job again. it was the worst job possible. i hated every
second. 4 months later i quit again.

this was the worst of times - i thought my life was over.

\- and -

i was wrong. i was unbelievable wrong.

it was the most important time of my adult life (so far). you can only
recognize the good parts of life if you have experiences some bad parts.

~~~
karolist
Interesting. What happened next?

------
achompas
OP, some portable, ready-to-eat advice for you: ditch the loser friends who
don't want to take risks, explain your decision to your father and ask for
support, and find a job again if money is an issue.

You're 20. When I was 20 I hadn't worked a full-time job yet; since then I've
been hired at a place where it didn't work out, worked my ass off, landed a
dream job, and now I'm learning how to code. Life is long, and you and I have
only lived a piece of it.

It hasn't. You're alive, you have your family, and there's air in your lungs.
Take steps to fix this situation.

Oh, and stop being so negative. Life's hard enough already when you're NOT
giving yourself a hard time.

------
tirrellp
The good news is, you're 20. You have plenty of time to recover from this
experience. You can even go back to college at this point, graduate, and still
only be 24.

The bad news is, 4 months of living expenses is not enough to eject from
stable income if you dont have replacement income waiting in the wings. This
is something that seems to be overlooked in the folklore of "living on ramen".
The fact of the matter is that you need money to live, and if you are worried
about where you will live or where your next meal will come from, you will not
be in a position to be able to concentrate on any major intellectual
endeavors.

------
beatpanda
This happens to a lot of people, especially 20-year-olds. You just feel worse
about it because your job was "high paying", which is really just a quirk of
circumstance and totally meaningless.

If you really wanted a soulless but high-paying job you hate, you'd be at Yale
preparing for a career in finance.

It sounds like you don't really know what you want to do with your life right
now. Nobody really does at 20. So I'm going to give you some advice nearly
everyone here will hate: go to college.

My parents threw me out when I was 18, and I learned a few things really
quickly. The most important was that in California, you can go to community
college for free as long as you're poor (which I was by default as a line
cook/graveyard shift baker), and knock out two out of four years of a
bachelor's degree just dicking around, trying different things in different
departments until something clicks.

You'll learn a ton. Most of it won't have to do with your degree. That totally
doesn't matter and it's not the point.

With just a little bit of focus, you can come away with an associate's degree
and a killer transfer application to get you in to a better college. Or, you
can just drop out, and hopefully you'll at least have a better idea of what
you want to do with your life, a little bit of experience, and a larger
professional network than you started with.

I built my freelance programming and design career by teaching myself those
skills while taking classes[1] and working in kitchens. By the end of the
first half of year two, I wasn't working in kitchens anymore. Now my school is
paying me to finish my bachelor's degree, and I'm turning down job offers
every time I go to a meetup for my field, one that everybody tells me is
supposed to be dying or something.

The other most important thing I learned was how to be happy while poor (not
fake college student poor where you can always call your parents for more
money, but real poor where you have a jar of peanut butter until pay day next
week and your heat is turned off), and that poverty is worth not being subject
to others' expectations and living on your own terms.

Not having money is not a real problem. Living with shitty parents who yell at
you about money and wanting to kill yourself is. Get the fuck out of there and
go to college. You will not regret it, as long as you don't pay for it.

I second the advice to stay off of Hacker News, because it's generally full of
privileged overachievers who will make you feel worse (though not consciously)
about your situation.

If you want any specific details about how to accomplish any of these things,
feel free to contact me, info is in my profile.

 _1\. Some of you are saying to yourselves, "Why were you teaching yourself
while going to college? That's dumb, you shouldn't have been in college!" It's
because outside of "elite" universities, programming knowledge is usually
woefully out of date, and the nature of this field is such that the only one
with any authority to say it's out of date is the one teaching the out-of-date
course material. History, philosophy, and writing skills are much less
dependent on the state of the art, and it's easier to find a skilled,
accesible and receptive mentor in all of these fields than it is in
programming or computer science._

~~~
mannicken
Yeah, actually that is true. I've been taking community college classes for
about three years or so. Dropped out of HS in 10th grade, started community
college instead of 11th grade. Taking classes helped define what I like.

I thought I wanted to be a chemist, but after taking Chem 161 I realized I
HATE EVERYTHING ABOUT CHEMISTRY. I thought I wanted to major in math but I
barely passed Calculus III and the class was a huge drag. Then I started
taking art classes and realized art was awesome. I've stayed for hours before
and after the class finishing paintings, going to the galleries, hanging at
the galleries, it was just so fun and I stuck with art for over a year.

But then I realized there's not a lot of money in art (for me) so I started
studying design (especially since I have background in web-development so that
helps).

I guess I'm better off than 100 days ago
(<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2725893>) in that I at least am somewhat
more determined with goals in life, somewhere in the arts/design industry. And
that comes from actually designing/drawing and enjoying it, rather than liking
the "idea of being a quantum mechanics professor".

The only problem of course is that it'll never happen because apparently I'm
destined to slave away at C++ legacy code all my life. Which is really what
depresses me.

~~~
danparsonson
>...apparently I'm destined to slave away at C++ legacy code all my life.
Which is really what depresses me.

Well, there's another difficult lesson there - there's no such thing as
'destiny', however much it may feel that way sometimes. Many people willingly
or unwillingly follow the random wind of fate and think of it as destiny but
it is just the nature of life that 'things happen'.

The good news is that knowing this frees you up somewhat - _your life is yours
to control_. The trick is working out what you want (and you apparently have
some idea now, more than most 20 year-olds) and then what steps you need to
take to get there.

Some suggestions:

1) Beware the myth of the overnight success - getting where you want to go in
life almost always involves many incremental steps and lots of work, yet we
are surrounded by stories of companies and individuals who hit the jackpot and
found success instantly. In reality that almost never happens and what we
usually don't hear about are the years of trial-and-error and effort that went
into building that success.

2) If C++ is your strength, perhaps you could find a way to use that to
finance the transition? In the short-term, another coding job could give you
the money to pay for art/design training and help you move into the career you
really want. The key here is to get the best out of your free time. This is
one way to avoid the 'fate' that you fear - use the lemons you have to make
the lemonade you want.

3) As some other people have said, tell us what you can do and what you've
been working on, and perhaps someone here will be able to offer you some
freelance work to help with your cashflow.

Sorry to hear that your Dad and your friends are being so unhelpful. All I can
offer there is one of the great 'aha!' moments in my life so far - when people
are being persistently unpleasant to you, it almost always reflects
insecurities that they hold about themselves, rather than something you've
done wrong per se. You've come to a difficult point in your life and throwing
blame or sarcasm around does nothing to change that, only appeases their
demons for a short while. I don't know if that helps at all but it helped me
to realise that I wasn't to blame for other peoples' anger - we all make
mistakes and have difficult times but the constructive thing to do is to find
a way deal with them and move forward, not wallow in the problems we perceive
others have visited upon us (I'm referring still to your father and friends,
not to you).

Enough rambling; I hope that helps and wish you the best of luck in the
future.

------
shad0wfax
I am 30, I quit my job in USA a few months ago, moved back to India, wife is
still living in USA, have been living with parents since then and have been
driven to madness at home with their constant advice and criticism. All of
this for a slim chance to succeed in what I want to do putting all my tiny
life savings into this one basket.

But you know what, I am hopeful. I am hopeful that I can do something
meaningful in the next one year that I have been given. I am hopeful that I
can push myself to the next level (much more maybe). I am hopeful that I can
rediscover myself. I am hopeful that I can maybe make a small dent in _my own_
universe. I am hopeful that I can feel proud about myself. The way I see it is
even failure is a success for me, because I have all these hopes.

I am happy I got this chance at 30, I know I will not get this anytime later
with many more commitments I might make. I often wonder at times, if I had the
maturity of my 30 when I was 20, I would be so much more willing to do this
again and again.

While I can certainly understand your pain of what you consider failure, I
feel you are rushing to make this call giving on hope. You have another 10
glorious years before you feel you din't do enough of what you have been able
to do now. Step out of home, take a couple of days break (if financially
feasible), write on a piece of paper what you want and how you can get there
next. Taking these chances should make you proud, cos look around you, your
friends are clinging on to that so called steady income, slipping away in
their comfort zone.

------
domwood
I've been living on my own since I was 16, I've struggled to find full time
work as a designer, with _no_ formal qualifications and barely enough
experience to call myself a professional. I recently lost the first, well
paying and only full time office based design job I've ever had. You know
what? Fuck it, I don't care. And you shouldn't either! You're 20, you made a
"life decision". Well done, seriously. You had the hangers to go for it and it
doesn't matter if things didn't go to plan. Your parents are reacting the
predictable way, they still care but it's their _job_ to bitch and complain.
Tell them that it's your prerogative to fuck up, and it's not theirs to make
it worse.

You quit your job for perfectly good reasons, it was a crappy job and if I was
in your situation I'd have done the same. Be proud you walked away.

You're going to be fine if you keep your shit together, use your friends
taking the piss as your justification to succeed. Go find a crappy job that'll
earn you a piss poor amount of money and then go focus on being awesome in
your spare time. Make something random, see what happens. Repeat. Find other
devs/designers to work with, see what you can do. Repeat. Work in the day and
do crazy shit at night. Get your confidence back, build your portfolio. Get to
a point where you've got your cahones back and then _do something with
yourself_. Move to somewhere where there's cool companies looking to hire,
impress them all. Repeat.

You'll get somewhere if you push for it. And if you fuck up? Who cares! You're
young, just enjoy the ride.

------
mydigitalself
I'll echo what a number of others have said here - you are only 20 years old,
there is so much opportunity ahead of you in so many ways!

I dropped out of university at 19 in 1997 to start a .com. For a while, I was
flying high, unstoppable. Then the bubble burst and I was stranded in the
United Kingdom with no job and barely a cent to my name. I struggled to find a
job, got huge anxiety (was puking every morning) and my confidence was
entirely shattered.

After about 6 months I took a junior project management position at about
1/3rd of what I was earning the year before. And I worked my way right up to
the top and then joined an incredibly successful startup and am incredibly
well positioned in life.

Having read your original post, I think you made the CORRECT decision to leave
that company. You were unhappy, overworked and unfulfilled - that is no way to
live life no matter what your parents or friends may think.

One more thing to consider, despite having achieved a decent degree of
success, I'm a bit over it all now and I'm strongly considering doing
something completely different like moving to the alps and running a small ski
chalet business, because I really feel I will love doing that and every
morning I can look myself in the mirror and say, today is going to be a great,
enjoyable day.

I think you are probably even too young to know what you want, but think
strongly about what really makes you happy and then find ways to do it.

Good luck, be strong, sometimes life kicks you in the balls a bit, but we're
not defined by those failures, we're defined by how we get up and move forward
and you have plenty to move forward towards.

------
roblobue
You've already done what so many don't do: admit to their mistakes.

You are right to say others shouldn't rush into quitting their day job.
Anything where you have to move back in with your parents and eat your savings
isn't an easy decision. It's easy to get caught up in all these success
stories on TechCrunch and Hacker News, when, in reality, they are a very small
percentage of people.

However, nothing ventured, nothing gained. And while it hasn't worked out for
you financially, it doesn't mean you haven't learnt from the whole experience.
You will be wiser next time to the process of going at it alone - this isn't a
bad thing.

I quit my job at 23 to start my own company and, while it is for me, I think
at our age it doesn't matter if it doesn't work out. I imagine it's the same
for you: I have no kids, no partner, no responsibilities that require a stable
income other than rent. There is no better time to experiment really.

I can understand you're finding it difficult to get back into the job market:
what are your skills? Perhaps we could suggest a few things?

If getting your high-school diploma is important to you, think about going
back to get the grades. You are older and wiser now, you will do well.

We are young enough to make these mistakes. Decide what you want to do and go
for it.

------
flarg
It'll be OK.

I've done the same things at least twice.

At 20 you're probably not realising that by far the best bits of life are when
you have to struggle; a comfortable life is a wasted life.

Couple of tips:

* When you're feeling sad, don't drink or take drugs - believe me they really don't help.

* Use a condom ;)

* Get an education (hell, you're reading Hacker News, so you probably know a lot already)

* Get a small part-time job - it'll make your dad feel better, and maybe know you don't get it, but true happiness comes from making other people feel good.

------
rjknight
20 is _young_. You could do nothing for 5 years and still have plenty of time
to sort yourself out, so long as you work on building up your skills.

Your previous job sounds shit. Seriously, I can understand why you quit. But
if you're a developer you should be able to find new work. Freelancing is damn
hard because it's not about how good you are at your primary skill, it's all
about schmoozing and selling, and that's hard for a young guy to do because
people are not disposed to take young people seriously.

What kind of coding do you do? If it's even slightly in demand, get in touch
with some recruitment agents. Put together some kind of portfolio.

I've got a similar story to you - I have barely any qualifications, not even
high school level. I was unemployed at 20 and under-employed for the next 5
years, until I got a decent coding job. From there, my salary has gone up by
about 5x in 3 years. Ok, it's not going to do that again, but I'm now at a
very comfortable level. I probably could have done a lot better for myself at
20 if I knew then what I know now.

Hang in there, and keep trying. You'll make it bigger and better than anyone
who doubts you thinks.

------
kmb40
A bad idea as opposed to what, getting fired whenever the company decided you
were no longer needed OR better yet, being miserable everyday?

Job security is an illusion that companies dangle to motivate us to be slaves.
It doesn't exist for the average person.

I am twice you age and promise you two things based on your post:

1\. You are far to young to think you world has ended, it has not. - Having a
high paying job isn't the only thing in this world that can make you happy.
Find out what makes you happy and focus on that you have plenty of time.

2\. You did the right think despite what ANYBODY says. You were not in a
healthy environment for you and it does you no good to have a good job if you
are killing yourself and getting sick everyday.

Give yourself some credit for making a decision and learn from it. It will
make you stronger. Its better early in life than later.

Also, you need to find yourself some new friends. That's very important. Not
because you want people that agree with you but so you can communicate with
people that can give you some positive feedback. Like another comment says,
risk takers are cut from a different cloth than non risk takers.

------
AngeloAnolin
You tried. You failed. You move on. Life will always have its fair share of
lemons.

Don't compare what you would have been (if your venture succeeded) with what
you could have been have you stayed on the job. I think this is what makes you
depressed.

Focus more on what you're good at. Take a different approach without losing
your perspective. Always be on the positive side of things. With your latest
move, at least you already have some life learning lessons that not all people
would even have the luxury of knowing or experiencing. Think of it as one
painful part of your life where you ultimately learned a lot of lesson.

Get your mojo back. Believe in yourself. Never stop trying. Feel better about
yourself. Not everyone will do what you did - which would take a lot of
courage and heart.

After you read this, go back to the drawing board. Look where you could
_temporarily_ fend for yourself while looking for the next big thing. Life is
a constant change and whether you remain at the pits or keep on moving is up
to you.

I would not wish you best of luck as I believe that luck is what we make of
what we have and what we do.

------
cruppstahl
You're 20! That's a good time for failures. Really - it's painful for you
right now, but it would be devastating if you had a wife, a house to pay off
and two kids. There's no other period in your life where you're allowed to
make such failures. You learned your lesson, and life will go on.

Good luck with the job search! Just don't give up, these economical times are
not so good for many of us.

------
MortenK
I just read one of your replies to edw519's post, but I think you deleted it.
I can't find it anymore at least. In any case, it stated you were not at all
interested in programming.

I think you answered your own problem with that post.

I have seen your DeviantArt portfolio. You have real talent. It seems to me
that drawing is your real passion. So go for that! If you have the opportunity
to go to college and study arts, or graphical design, do whatever it takes to
make that happen. If not, get a regular job and take whatever courses you can,
and just keep drawing.

If you keep on drawing for a few more years to improve your technique, people
will be fighting over to work with you.

You'll be able to do mainstream graphical design for websites and similar (not
too exciting, but can pay very well) or you can go into some of the more
interesting areas such as game concept art, character illustration, 3D
modelling and animation etc etc.

Ignore what the hell your father or friends say. Your a visual artist, not a
programmer. Set that as your aim, and go be it.

~~~
mannicken
Yeah, perhaps the cause of my depression might be being pushed into
programming from a very young age. Just like people in ballet/gymnastics, I
was kind of expected to write C++ code when I was 11 even though I rarely
enjoyed coding/solving algorithms.

------
johnnybridges
From reading your first post I think your decision to quit was the right one.
You're clearly an intelligent and motivated person who made a bold decision in
pursuit of something you are passionate about and will find more meaningful
and worthwhile. - Plus the fact it sounded like a shit place to work. You're
still young and you're still finding your feet. Stick with it. Don't give up.
Believe in yourself.

I agree with hopeless and revorad in the sense that taking any form of work to
bring in some income for the time being will help you hugely and will get your
father off your back. I know my father would go ape at me too. Simply use it
as motivation to prove him wrong along with everyone else that makes fun of
you. Work your hardest at what you believe in and money will come later.

One last thing to note - networking is key, get out and get yourself as many
contacts as you can, contacts make the world go round. You'd be surprised how
much and how far you can get just by talking to people.

Good luck!

------
mgkimsal
To some degree it's part of being 20 - people at 20 rarely put as much thought
as needed in to _any_ life decision - it's part of the growing process. You'll
be sure to put more thought in to future decisions, and you'll be better off
for it.

A lot of the "I quit my job!" stories we read on HN are people quitting to
move on _to_ something better, usually that's already lined up. You were
quitting more to get _away_ from something bad. Both are valid reasons, but
your move was riskier without a new destination plan in place already. That's
all - you're not a loser because of this decision.

It _is_ painful, but you'll get through this somehow. If you ever feel like
talking, shoot me an email at mgkimsal@gmail.com or hit me up at 919.827.4724.
I've been in deeper situations than you, looking much more stupid and with far
more zeros involved, and it certainly does get better.

------
goo
"A lot of the barriers are in your head ;-)"

-mannicken, 17 days ago

~~~
goo
Also consider light therapy -- a quick look at your profile indicates that
you're in Seattle, and SAD sneaks up on you pretty quick this time of year.
Now is when it's starting to hit hard. Although some people get it more than
most, many people are affected by it at least to some degree.

A light therapy lamp has given me the best return on investment of any product
I have purchased ever. <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C15P7A/>

~~~
kpennell
Not to mention that Seattle is a depressing place to begin with...

------
davidamcclain
Quitting your old job seems like a very sane thing to have done. Your position
now is unrelated to your position before. By that I mean quitting your job was
one event, and what you did afterwards was another. If the current situation
isn't working out for you, it's not because you left the previous (horrible)
situation, it's that you've unfortunately found yourself in another horrible
situation.

In other words, deciding to quit your old job was probably a good idea. If
going freelance isn't a good idea for you it doesn't invalidate the idea of
quitting your job. It just means you have to come up with a new idea.

I feel for you though man, freelancing was tough. Especially if you made as
many mistakes in it as I did. From what you say however, I wouldn't have
stayed very long at your old company.

------
hopeless
It's really great to hear someone follow up on a previous post

For what it's worth, I still think you did the right thing. That job obviously
wasn't going anywhere and sounded pretty miserable. Perhaps your mistake
wasn't the quitting but the freelancing over taking another job, and the
option is still open to you.

So the freelancing thing hasn't worked out for you. Perhaps taking a full-time
job, even for a short period, will be enough to get you back living
independently, build up some savings, make some new contacts, have a social
life, and perhaps eventually even build a product business in your spare time.
Give the freelance thing another go in a year or two? You've undoubtedly
learnt plenty of lessons which will help you the next time.

~~~
blitzky
Obviously he did NOT do the right thing. There is nothing wrong with admitting
a mistake. But it was not an entire loss - he was able to grow with the
experience and realize that the lifestyle being sold isn't for everybody.
Right, it is NOT for everybody. My advice is that he follows through his new
found learning and tries to go back to a job. He is a more mature person now,
and will be able to find one eventually.

~~~
chc
It's still not obvious to me that quitting the job was the wrong choice. The
mistake was what he did afterward in failing to find an alternative source of
income. It's a common mistake to quit without an adequate plan, so that is a
good lesson learned.

------
tersiag
I always find comfort in the following verse no matter what the problem.
Nothing ever stays the same, were always in transition. Take a minute and
think about it...

Ecclesiastes 3:1-6 A Time for Everything. There is a time for everything, and
a season for every activity under the heavens: A time to be born and a time to
die, A time to plant and a time to uproot, A time to kill and a time to heal,
A time to tear down and a time to build, A time to weep and a time to laugh, A
time to mourn and a time to dance, A time to scatter stones and a time to
gather them, A time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing, A time to
search and a time to give up, A time to keep and a time to throw away,

------
nextlink15
I'm old. So seriously 20 is no age, you've your whole life ahead of you. Don't
do anything stupid, is there someone other than your parents you can have a
chat with. It's an old cliche, but a problem shared is a problem halved.

------
Goladus
You're 20? That's a fine age to take a risk. You should take more risks, if
you can, especially since, if I'm reading you right, you don't have any
student loans. Missing education is rough, but if you can write and have
technical skills anyway, saving money on student loans is an advantage.

Also, I think you made the right choice in quitting, even if it seems rough
now. The only potentially better option would have been to deliberately slack
off without quitting, doing the bare minimum and planning your future in your
spare time. But not everyone can do that and still endure the abuse you
described.

------
adk
Btw, some smart person once said "suicide is a permanent solution to a
temporary problem" Cross that option off hour list and get some help. Suicide
hotline, nearby mental health professionals are both good options.

~~~
iforget
Contribute something he hasn't heard a thousand times from after school
specials. Seriously. Harsh but necessary. -1 for anonymous quote.

~~~
Jgrubb
Go away.

------
kokey
I've had to start over a few times in my life. Hitting rock bottom teaches you
the best lessons. What you learn from this experience and how you eventually
overcome it will put you ahead of those people who never take a risk and make
fun of you. When events outside of their control hit them they will not be
equipped to deal with it effectively. Normally hitting rock bottom has always
been a turning point for me. It's where you don't worry about pride that much
and do the things you really have to do to dig yourself out again. In most
cases I was back into well paying work within a year and on top of my finances
again after two years, and better than I have been before. Also, just like the
experience you gain with startups failing, you learn how to fail more
gracefully each time. You also learn how wrong you can be even if you think
you've planned to move on through it gracefully. Next time you'll probably
just look for a less unreasonably demanding job instead of trying to create
one from scratch, or do it in a partnership with someone who has experience,
or find a consulting job where you can start reducing your days over time. But
before that is dealing with what you are going through now, the small, hard
but pragmatic steps you go through to start earning some income, to start
dealing with people in real life again so you feel more confident socially
which leads to more opportunities, being able to pay the basic bills so you
can survive until that all works out.

------
elliottcarlson
There are some excellent advice in here already - and I won't repeat what has
been said before; nor will I go in to the full depth of my story (not because
I'm posting non-anonymously, but because I don't have the time to write a
novel);

I was homeless - had no roof over my head, literally had to find food to eat
(though offering to scrub the toilets at fast food restaurants in exchange for
food works since everyone is too lazy to do their own jobs). I was able to get
off the streets, but my situation wasn't any better and lived with a handful
of people in a 1 bedroom apartment. Then I made the long trek to NYC via
Greyhound bus with $60 to my name and a backpack of personal items. I stayed
with a friend of a friend of a friend for a few months (which it turns out it
wasn't his house, he was just renting a room, and apparently he didn't tell
the owners that my intentions were to move in - he figured it would just work
out - luckily it did). I worked my ass off to go from literally absolutely
nothing up the ranks. I went from homeless to a married man with a great job.
It was rough, more than you can possibly imagine, and there were plenty of
times where shit hit the fan and it looked like everything would fall apart,
but if you persevere you will make it through. We are hackers - not because we
are good with computers, but because we are smart people with clever ideas.
Put those ideas and analytical thinking to use outside of the computer world
and you will find a way to get out of your situation.

------
bluekite2000
No one has mentioned this so I will. Get a girlfriend! someone who understands
you and talks you through your depression, someone who is on your side as you
fight with your dad, someone who makes a hot dish for you when you are hungry,
someone who will massage your shoulders and feet after a long day of job
hunting. It is amazing how many successful men have that someone behind their
backs because they too have failed many times and its her who picks her
husband up and cheers him up as he goes out and conquers the world

~~~
chc
Getting a girlfriend is easier said that done — and probably _should be_ —
when you're broke and depressed. Dating works so much better when you're at
ease with yourself.

------
Almaviva
I was in your situation, but at age 30. I took a couple of years off with
plenty of savings and had no idea how unhireable I would be afterwards. (I got
my degree in math in the days when no specific education in CS was required at
all to easily get a job). I was depressed too, and felt less free, and didn't
feel like doing a single thing, exactly as you describe.

Here's what I did: I took a crappy job working full time at a coffee shop. I
started on a CS degree through night school, and treated it like fighting for
dear life. I did ten times more work on school projects than required and
literally got a hundred percent on everything. I practiced programming and
learned about it like my life depended on it.

I put out ads looking for any programming work, that ten dollars an hour would
be fantastic. I got a job doing PHP for 14 dollars an hour eventually, this
was after finishing a year of courses. They quickly gave me a few raises and
after two years of that I was employable again - once I get my foot in a door
I know I am going to be one of the best employees any given place has ever
seen - it's the selling part that is hard. I got a job at a much more
prestigious place, and am now firmly back on the road toward the salary range
that experienced developers get these days.

(Now I'm starting to fight the malaise again that comes with moving up
Maslow's pyramid, in particular being romantically rejected by every woman
I've met in two years, but that's a different story. I think in your situation
you can't feel the urgency of it enough.)

------
natasham25
After graduating college, I got a very competitive job with nice pay that had
a lot of potential. I ended up absolutely hating it, to the point where I
would drive into work every day with tears in my eyes.

The problem was, I was young and had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do,
so I didn't even know where to apply. So I ended up spending all my free time
focusing on things I was passionate about. I wanted to be healthy, so I cooked
and worked out and got healthy. I also loved traveling and seeing and learning
new things. So every weekend, I tried something new. I was in DC at the time,
so I got to see all the plantations and went sky diving and learned skiing and
went on a hot-air ballon ride and a lot more! Every weekend, I would do
something I was passionate about. And none of these things were in any way
related to my work.

Now, a few years later, I am working on a start-up with some new friends that
focused on making it easier for others to get out and see and try new things.

So my advice is this. You're 20, so you probably have no idea what that one
thing you're passionate about is. There are probably a few things that you're
passionate about, so pursue them. They don't have to be related to anything
you're "working" on at all. If you're passionate about traveling or meeting
people or playing a sport or playing guitar or anything else, pursue it. It
will not be a straight path to finding a job and getting out of your current
situation, but it will be a step to getting there, and you never know what or
who you will discover along the way. Good luck!

------
zephyrfalcon
Looking at your description of your previous job, it didn't exactly seem like
a good place to work... OK, that's an understatement. You're not an idiot for
leaving an abusive employer; you would have been an idiot to stay there. I bet
that in a few years, you _will_ remember it as one of the best things you've
ever done. It just doesn't feel that way right now, because quitting is only
the first step you have to take to make things better.

It's not that easy to find a decent job, especially in this economy... so if
all else fails, you will have to "bootstrap" yourself, get any old job (as
others already pointed out), and buy yourself some time to figure out what you
really want.

Parents can be notoriously annoying when it comes to things like this, but (in
my experience) it's _usually_ because they're worried. They only see part of
the story; you had a (well-paying) job, then you quit, now you're broke,
doesn't sound like a good decision, from their POV. When I lost my job long
ago, my mom acted like it was the end of the world. (It's better than having a
parent who doesn't care though.) But after a few months I found a job that was
what I _wanted_ to do (i.e., programming, in my case) and things got better
from there.

A final thought: it's better to make this decision when you're 20, than when
you're (say) 40 and have a mortgage, a family to support, etc.

Good luck.

------
reconor
Your life is essentially a series of experiences unfolding in ways you are
likely to never predict with any reasonable degree of accuracy.

Steve Job's graduation commencement speech touches on this idea of being
unable to "connect the dots in your life" forward, one can only do it
retrospectively. It is a keen observation and is certainly worth listening to:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1R-jKKp3NA>

Try and minimize the amount of time you let your mind spend regretting a
decision you made in March and focus more on looking forward and taking the
next positive step in your life.

You are only 20 and are bound to make many more decisions that you may
consider to be a mistake in the short-term, but you have no idea how your life
will ultimately unfold.

What you once considered to be a mistake could turn out to be a great
decision, even if it only serves the purpose of teaching you some lessons to
grow yourself further.

Kudos on your bravery to take a risk, I'm sorry to hear it isn't working out
at the moment but I assure you it is totally within your domain of influence
to change things around for yourself and realize new opportunities.

Just take it one step at a time and try and frame the experience as simply an
opportunity to grow through a challenge.

I read edw519's comment and he is certainly right, we do care and things are
never as bad as they may seem.

------
someinternetguy
The youngest self made billionaire was 23 when it happened for him, and that
was with a ton of connections. Relax, you still have 3 more years before
you're a failure.

When I was 21 I tried to do what you tried to do here, and I ended up living
with my sister with -$83 in the bank by the time it was all said and done. I
am 24 now and doing much better in life, but it was a long road to get here. I
can promise you that it will get better, but you will have to work for it.

My suggestions:

\- Start filling out applications for any and every job. Get a job. It doesn't
matter if it's cleaning toilets or flipping burgers. Right now there are
people with PHD's who are riding on the back of a garbage truck. Put your
pride and passions behind you, and take any job you can get.

\- Until you get that job, do anything you can to get money. Go door to door
with a lawn mower and cut grass. Troll the free section on craigslist and find
a way to sell the items listed there. Walk into the small mom and pop shops in
your area and ask if they need any help involving IT whether it be building a
website, designing a flyer, setting up a wireless network, fixing a computer,
anything. Ask if you can leave your number with them if anything should come
up in the future.

There's always a way to make a few extra dollars, and you'd be surprised how
much small businesses are willing to help out someone down on their luck who
actually wants to work. Swallow your pride, get out of the house, and get face
to face with people who have succeeded where you have failed.

Best of luck to you.

~~~
mrbgty
"The youngest self made billionaire was 23 when it happened for him, and that
was with a ton of connections. Relax, you still have 3 more years before
you're a failure."

haha

------
MrTortoise
tell your dad to go fuck himself for not understanding that taking a risk for
a life changing decision is something that shuold be encouraged in the young.
Some people are born to never try anything, others dare and get burnt. The
point is you tried, that makes you better than me. I applaud people who try
and fail wheras I pity people who do not. You picked a fight against all odds
and lost - ask your dad how much hes lost on lotteries. The point is you have
time to rebuild. As for friends, find the funny side - that is their purpose
in life. If they arnt building you up then im afraid they ain't your friends.
You need tears of win my friend.

You are 20 ... no offence but your still a kid ofc you have no idea whats
going on. welcome to the world, you define yourself - if your parents are
being assholes you need to move out before they damage you with their
expectations of you. They are only mad because you didn't do what they wanted
- because you 'owe' it to them. Really they owe you an apology for birthing
you if they want to own you. Doing what you did shuold show them that they did
a good job, you felt ready to go out and try something. You saved money and
invested it - it was a bad investment but at least you tried. If you try again
i bet you will realise that 4 months is actually VERY little time. Go read
about poker bankrolls and varience.

I was practically a hobo at 20, im not much now but i have created a career
for myself by hitting rock bottom, looking about and saying fuck this im gonna
teach myself to program and then blag my way into jobs for a few years untill
i really know what im doing. 11 years later things are very different - I had
no hope back then.

------
bad_user
You're young, you took a risk and you failed.

There's nothing wrong with that and somewhere down the line you'll realize you
actually learned something useful from all this.

Also, things could be much worse; for instance you could be an unemployed
father or being hunted by money lenders or with a chronic disease and no
insurance -- you're not the only one that experiences trouble in this economy,
yet many people will live to see a brighter day.

You are also not an idiot. To succeed in this economy, smartness is only one
factor. Others are luck, timing, the environment you live in and the
acquaintances you have.

Get a job, any job whatsoever. Low paying jobs, like being a driver or a
cashier or working in constructions, require more physical effort and a lot
less mental effort. This is good, because you probably need a break from
software development. Physical effort is also good when you're depressed and
it helps you pay the rent too.

I would also move out of my parents' house as soon as I got a job that allows
me to survive, as there's nothing worse when you're depressed to also be
dependent on other people, especially parents that look down on you with
disappointment; remember that they lived in different times when
entrepreneurship and failure may not have been so common.

So take it easy and don't worry, you will recover.

------
tryitnow
Huh? You're 20. You tried something it didn't work. So go to school, go back
to your high paying job.

And how many 20 year olds have high paying jobs to begin with?

Thanks for sharing, but if I were looking to hire someone (or recommend
someone for college admissions or a scholarship). I would view trying to your
own thing at such a young age as a big plus. You're all good, just ride out
this bad funk and you'll be back in the saddle in no time.

I look forward to whatever company you one day create.

------
marcomonteiro
Based on your other post, you should have quit. You weren't happy and were
subjected to slave labor. Forcefully applying more time at a keyboard doesn't
make you a more productive programmer. In fact, it makes you sloppy. Despite
what "everyone" thinks, they're wrong. They're wrong because they're not you.
They're wrong because they weren't there. They're wrong because they probably
couldn't even do what you were doing to begin with. They're just plain wrong
on every level.

At 20 you're still trying to define yourself so social approval matter but
these are the experiences in your life that cause you to retreat into your own
mental cave to carve out and define who you've always been and exactly who
you'll become.

You don't know what you need to know to be a successful freelancer. That's
obvious by the fact that you went broke. Find other freelancers and ask them
for their advice. Go back to school and get your high school degree. Learn
about business and marketing. Take on a job, it doesn't have to pay great.

In short find yourself. Find what works. You're young and you haven't earned
your freedom. Freedom comes with a price. Go pay the price for your freedom or
sell your freedom for a price. The choice is yours, and it is a choice.

Regarding suicide. I've felt like that more times than I can count. Don't do
it. It always turned out that suicidal thoughts were always huge indications
that the idea of who I am needed to die. Meaning it was time for a massive
change. Look for what you'd like to change about yourself and your life.

And...for christ's sake find some new friends! Preferably friends with a set
of balls who aren't such sheep and are willing to take chances in life.

------
Skjalg
Dont worry, you made two small mistakes. And you know what they say about
mistakes; you learn from them.

First mistake: You're 20. Not really much you can do about that. But in order
to be successful as a start up you need experience. years of experience.

Second mistake: You could only afford to live for yourself for 4 months. You
need AT LEAST 3 times that in order to make sure you have any hope of
survival. Building a business is not done in 4 months.

------
dericloh
"My friends make fun of me for making a retarded life decision."

there will always be people out there whom try to demean along the way.the
reason being either they can't do that themselves so the easiest way out is to
tell you to not go ahead so they will feel better. What's the risk for them in
this instance? ZERO. Secretly praying hard you will not make it and take any
action at all. Imagine how demotivating and powerful are those words just to
make you not even start the journey.

Taking myself as an example,when I am in the process of building a new
business from ground zero, the first thing these so call "friends" will say
"why build this or that...blah blah..it's not possible" or "people will jump
in and compete with you in the future" you get the drift. Despite all this, I
pushed on and proved them its actually possible if we try hard enough,
persistence is the key.

Push on,never say never,it's a tough and lonely journey as an entrepreneur
especially by yourself, and I totally understand those very lows moments like
yourself. It's only those who persevere through will look back after achieving
the initial "impossible" and turning that into a possible.

------
ttcbj
About 8 years ago I quit my job at a great company to start a business. I had
no idea what I was doing. About 2 years later, my co-founder had quit, I had
not seen a drop of income from the business, I had burned through a good chunk
of savings, and I felt like a failure. I was living in a studio apartment in
san francisco, using my closet as an office (the desk fit in there, but I
didn't when seated at it). I was so upset about the whole thing that I would
wake up in the morning at 5AM, be nauseous, then be so miserable that I would
go back to sleep. There was a 3-4 year period where I was working so hard, and
then so ashamed, that I turned away dates because I didn't want to answer the
'what do you do' question. It was definitely the lowest point of my life.

I decided to apply to law school, and I had just missed the cycle, so it was
going to be another year before I got a response. I kept working on the
business because I couldn't think of anything else to do. In the next year,
the business improved enough that I decided not to go to law school. It kept
getting better and better. About 3.5 years in, I stopped telling people it was
a failure. The truth was that by that time, it was a very good deal and I
could no longer deny it.

My point is not that you should keep doing what you are doing (or that you
should apply to law school). Its just that bad times get better. I think the
number one thing you can do for yourself is keep moving forward. It doesn't
have to be big, just a small step each day in a positive direction. One great
thing you can do, in my opinion, is work out. Even if you are unemployed for
the next year, at least you will be fit and trim at the end of it. You can jog
for free.

Mostly, I wanted to communicate that things will get better, just keep moving
forward...

------
VuongN
Here is a formula I think might work:

1) Discipline and personal activity: wake up and jog/exercise at the exact
same time EVERY DAY. Nothing too exhaustive, just 15 to 20 minutes of
consistent exercise. Don't miss a day.

2) Keep a journal of plus/delta: what was good and what needs to change during
the day. Nothing extremely elaborate, start with a list of things you did
during the day or the day before. Take this seriously. Do it in silence and
reflect at a consistent time at night or early morning (after exercise).

3) Communications and group activity: join ONE group of interest (meetup
perhaps), church, temple etc.

4) Family relationship building: talk to your mother and help your father.
Take initiative, do the dishes, contribute to house chores. Don't be a dead
beat... seriously, I've been and seen the type. Don't be lazy, help out around
the house. You will see relationship improving. "No man is an island" learn to
be a part of the family. Parents just want their kids to be decent, if they
SEE improvements and efforts from you, they will respond back positively.

5) Read this book: [http://www.amazon.com/Mindset-Psychology-Success-Carol-
Dweck...](http://www.amazon.com/Mindset-Psychology-Success-Carol-
Dweck/dp/0345472322/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318423610&sr=8-1) If you don't
have the money to buy it, give me your address and I WILL buy it for you.
Learn the change your mindset into a growth mindset.

6) Go back to basic: NO complain, NO excuses, NO negativity and NO bull.

7) Remember. You are still very young, my friend. Life is long and there is a
lot waiting for you. There are thousands of people out there who are willing
to help you IF you ask for their help (like the HN community). And most
importantly, there is no magic formula for a good life--you'll just have to
work for it like everyone else.

My apologies if I made any unwarranted assumptions. I hope what I wrote could
be something you might consider. Certain things work for me but they might not
work for you. Still, if nothing is working, then try something else. Keep
trying until something work for you. What I really want to impress upon you is
this: CONSISTENCY and DISCIPLINE. Good luck.

(NOTE: please forgive my quick notes which might contain grammatical and
spelling errors. I need to start my morning exercise as I am a bit late :P)

------
saltcod
Please, please, please go read the book What Colour is your Parachute:
[http://www.amazon.com/What-Color-Your-
Parachute-2012/dp/1607...](http://www.amazon.com/What-Color-Your-
Parachute-2012/dp/1607740109)

I know it looks like a self-help book—at least that's what I thought—but it
made a huge difference in my life. While I was never in your exact position, I
was in terrible job for the last 2 years. My boss would call my office almost
every day at 4:55 to make sure I didn't leave early. I endured constant
criticism and had really didn't have a shred of positive feedback in over two
years of work.

What Colour is your Parachute made me realize that it really was the job, it
wasn't me at all. Don't get discouraged. Figure out what you really want to do
with your life and work towards that. When someone recommended that I read
that book, I thought it was a crock at first. I didn't think i needed some
crazy self-help book. But, in reality, I did.

Just a few months later, I've left that terrible job and am working at one
that I love. It's out there—don't give up on the basis of one lousy job.

~~~
saltcod
ps: The new job I took pays just slightly more than half of what the old one
did. I'm still extremely happy about my decision. I'm not depressed anymore, I
love my job now, my home-life is better, etc etc etc.

Seriously, don't fret about this. It's stressful to not have a job, but I
really don't think you made a mistake. Job misery very quickly turns into life
misery. You should avoid being miserable at all costs.

Good luck and please write back. We're here to help.

------
mladenkovacevic
///What doesn't make it any easier is that I'm 20, I have no college diploma,
no high school diploma, no idea what the fuck is going on.///

So this pretty much sums it up. Dude you're 20! You just stopped being a
teenager! Of course you're clueless about life and such... we all were at that
age.

If you were European, Middle Eastern, Chinese or pretty much any other
nationality other than American/Canadian your dad would be bitching at you
until you were 45 so don't be so down on all that stuff. Pick yourself up,
take some classes, study ANYTHING, read some books, go to some networking
events, meet some new people... and always look for problems that need
solving.

You'll have a bunch of false starts, and a single one of those at the age of
20 really shouldn't get you down all that much. I don't know how ballin’ you
were before you quit your job, or how highly-paid you were, but I've got a
feeling that you didn't walk out on millions in bonuses or anything so you
didn't exactly make some catastrophic mistake.

If you are having suicidal thoughts I'd also talk to somebody and get some
professional help maybe.

------
madao
Good luck, you are only twenty. You have your whole life ahead of you, your
father has lived his, its time to live your own. Be the best you can be and do
your own thing, dont let other people run your life for you. If your friends
are bothering you because of the choices you made. Tell them to get fucked.
Really they are not your friends. One thing I have learned in life is that
friends come and go, they are nice to have and great to waste time with but at
the end of the day rely on yourself.

Also remember a job is just that. A job, its a way to make money to spend on
things you want. It is not there to run your life.

pick yourself up, pack a bag and go check out the world, head over to Asia and
teach English, go work in a factory and pack boxes (its hard work but, it is
very honest) make time for yourself and try to remember who you are.

Go to a bar and pick up a pretty girl. when you have finished your break pick
yourself up and start being creative, make one thing. After you have done all
of this you should then look for proper work.

you are your own person, the world is a big place, enjoy it.

------
jneal
I've been through similar experiences, as I am 26 and started my first high
paying programming gig when I was 22. You can't change the past, but you can
learn from it. You can always find another job, save money, and work on the
side for yourself. You should work on side projects constantly even while you
are working. Even if you have to get a normal job somewhere, do it just to
help you get by.

Once you can built stuff on the side, just keep building stuff and eventually
you'll find the right side project that needs more of your time and has more
potential. Don't just quit to quit, quit because you have a project that you
truly believe in and you want to make it your job.

I just think that this is an experience that you had to go through, a learning
experience. There is no reason to be thinking of suicide right now, you have
your entire future ahead of you. Believe me, that job is not your only chance
you will have more. Keep building your skills, keep working on your own so
that when you get to an interview you can show them what you've been doing in
your time off.

Good luck

------
marcoi
It looks like you're a developer (your site says UI/UX, Web, Flash). If that's
the case, it sounds like you're in the wrong place (and hanging around very
wrong people). I am in London, and I hear from the manager of Stack Overflow
for this region that the ratio is 3 jobs per developer. People here are
desperate for developers. I take you may not be able to move easily one of the
hotspots for now (not sure where you're based), but hopefully you can look for
jobs (and a more positive environment) somewhere else. It sounds like a stable
job would be good for you these days. If that's not an option, you may try
some of the freelancing sites, like elance, guru, freelancer, odesk, etc. I
hear they work well. Or some site more tailored to designers, if you do that
too. Either way, you took a risk, at the moment it feels like it didn't work,
that may seem different in the future... but none of that matters. What
matters is what you're doing next. You'll look back and feel that you've
learnt a lot from this phase in your life.

------
DanielBMarkham
Here's something I wish I knew when I was 20.

Life is a dance. Sometimes we lead. Sometimes life leads.

When I was a kid, I thought either you were in charge or you were a putz.
After all, all of my heroes were in complete charge of their life. Isn't that
the goal? Don't people always say "You're either telling your own story or
helping somebody else tell theirs?"

But then as I got older I realized that the important thing in this dance is
to figure out whether you are supposed to be listening and adapting or
leading. Out of work and need money? You should be listening. Where are the
jobs? How do I need to adapt to be able to eat? Have some free time in the
evenings? Then you should be leading. What can I do right now to help my own
prospects in five years' time?

A lot of times we just give up and take what we get. We spend our free time
plugged into a video game or the web. That's wrong. But it's just as wrong to
think that you should be in charge all of the time, working hard, living
large, and controlling your own destiny. That's another kind of giving up --
picturing some fantasy life that will never exist and then beating ourselves
up because we don't live there.

It ain't that easy. The dream is important. It's all there is. But you gotta
know how to dream. There is a difference between dreaming and fantasy.

So you got kicked in the teeth. Welcome to the big leagues, kid! Get good
enough at getting kicked in the teeth and you might end up being a decent
person one day.

Having said that, you also might be depressed. If so, you should find somebody
to talk to. Thinking of killing yourself is not very healthy. The thing isn't
that life doesn't suck. It's that life sucks and we learn to live in it and
love it anyway. Sometimes that can be tough to do. Talking about it helps. A
lot.

------
option1138
I want you to put this in perspective.

I read your previous post and you were working a shit job. I am a CEO of a
tech company and I can assure you I know what you are talking about. I've
never heard of such crazy hours (on a regular basis).

You're 20, so that necessarily means your job opportunities are limited. But
so what? I was 24 before I got my first "real" job. And today I'm doing pretty
well by any standards.

You have the next 20 years to do manifest whatever kind of crazy dream you
have in your head. So go do it.

Edit: Thought maybe I would also suggest to add a few words about your
location, what type of coding you like to do (languages, algorithms, domain
space, w/e), and how you would rate your own level of emotional maturity.
Maybe there are a few people out there who might be willing to give you a shot
if it's the right fit... but be honest! Nothing could be worse than
misrepresenting yourself and ending up similarly unhappy all for a few bucks.
Way better to live honestly, trudge through the short-term pain, and find a
long term solution that makes you really happy.

------
theitgirl
I once considered suicide too. It was for a different reason. My boyfriend of
2 years told me he got engaged to a woman his parents picked. I had just
graduated from college, had no job, was still living with my parents and had
no plans for the future. I just got more and more depressed..stopped eating
and pretty much cried all the time. My best friend told me to "stop being a
loser". My mom kept saying "why are you doing this to us?". Well, I felt like
a loser and a burden to society...really, I would be doing a favor to everyone
if I just disappeared.

Then one day I did try to commit suicide by slitting my wrists. It didn't
quite work out. It wasn't as easy as they show in the movies :). Then I had a
realization. I was looking for some external factor to make me feel
better...my mom, my friends, etc. and I was very self-pitiful. I realized that
if I wanted to get out of my situation, only I can do something about it.

I let go of the past and started over. I got a paid internship..moved out of
my parents house and concentrated on just being self-sustaining. I made new
friends and tried to be as social as possible...being around happy people rubs
of on you :)

I feel like you are still in the phase where you are going over your past and
keep thinking that you should have done something different. You have to stop
thinking about the past. Hopefully, saying it out loud here helped you a
little with that. I would suggest you to concentrate on the present. Take
small steps. Do one thing each day to improve your situation.

A few more tips that helped me deal with my depression: \- Write out your
feelings like you did now \- Try your best not be alone. Either go to the
library or a coffee shop to do job applications or other work. \- Don't take
your friends and your dad too seriously. Most people do not know how to deal
with a depressed person. They usually say the exact wrong thing :)

Best of luck!

------
acceptfail
I know how you feel...once you've hit bottom, you can only go up.

I quit my job last fall to pursue my startup full time. Similar deal--good
pay, good experience, but just too much stress at my day job and things w/ my
startup were gaining a lot of momentum.

Things took a turn for the worse when I wasn't getting where I wanted to be. I
ended up becoming a regular heroin user. The inevitable occurred and my life
became ruined.

Now I'm 26. I live with my dad. I don't do drugs anymore. My credit score is
probably 300 (I don't even want to know) from defaulting on all of the debts
undertaken when I quit my job and ran out of savings. I'm constantly 3 months
behind on my BMW lease; taking it on was an impulsive decision that I thought
would motivate me to work harder.

I spent a lot of time regretting my actions. It took a long time to accept my
mistakes and failure... of course, with the help of some therapy and a little
psychiatric medication.

Eventually you'll pull yourself out of your slump. Focus on yourself. Exercise
if you don't already. Keep up a routine. And get out of the house. Your
situation could be a lot worse. Go to the mall and ask for job applications.
It's likely the easiest way for formally uneducated people to get jobs,
especially with the upcoming holiday season. You'll work for peanuts, but
you'll meet lots of people who are in your situation (working a shitty job as
a stop-gap) who will probably be better friends than anyone you know today.

After months of self-deprecating thoughts and depression, I've finally gotten
an interview booked with a local growing web company. I didn't try to improve
things for months because I thought they couldn't be improved. You need to get
over yourself and start to try at life. Stop focusing on what went wrong and
instead wake up tomorrow and realize that you can start moving forward
regardless of what's obstructing your path (usually mental barriers.)

------
orochimaru
So it didn't work out. Would you rather you succeed 100% of the time at
everything you attempt ? Where would the feeling of accomplishment come from
then? Contemplating suicide is very very naive. It kills all your other
options as well. You're 20, for crying out loud. Just figure out what you
really like to do - maybe it's computers, maybe it's not.

You're probably being too hard on yourself - you were burnt out and bored from
your last job - you quit and went straight to this new thing. No gap in
between to recuperate from the burnout. Give yourself a break for 20 days -
forget about this ordeal during this break. When you're back from this break -
then decide what you want to do in life. When you're done with that, devote
5-6 years to learning or improving your skill in whatever it is that you
decide.

Take the long view. Try to master your craft. If you have, it shouldn't be
really hard to land a job to keep you afloat.

------
forcefsck
You made a decision that it hasn't worked (yet). It doesn't necessarily mean
that it was a/the wrong decision, only one without the expected outcome. You
are only 20, really, you are still just a kid, it's kind of offensive for
older guys like me to hear you say you're so depressed. Like the rest of us,
you will make some steps in your life that will lead you to a dead end and you
will have to go back and start over again. You are stressed now? Wait until
you have a wife and kid and risk more than your lifestyle with your decisions.

Decisions that don't work out great are not bad. Decisions that harm other
people are bad, like suiciding, killing or stealing. And have inmind that
people that support you through whatever, are your real friends.

Quiting your job might mean that you have guts or that you are naive. In both
cases, you are too young to blame and you have a lot more to try out before
your life ends.

------
insickness
I appreciate this post. I've been contemplating quitting my job for a few
years now in order to focus on my business. I'm 36 years old. I have a steady
IT job, which I like. And a side business which is my love. I often think that
if I quit my job, the pain and hunger would force me to launch my side
business into full throttle.

However, I am able to work on my side business while I have a day job, so I've
been doing both for the past few years.

It's hard to say whether my side business would have blown up huge by now. But
I can tell you that dragging that business along at half throttle does wear
down your enthusiasm for it.

Anyway, I appreciate the 'other' side of all the 'quit your job' rancor. I
suspect a lot of that comes from people who were successful who are trumpeting
that success. And the people for whom it doesn't work out... well... you don't
see enough of those people talking about it like you have.

Hope it all works out for you.

------
mariust
Hey, do you think that you are the only one that had (has) big problems? No
hell no, think of it as you are lucky, you are still young, you have your
health the rest are just small things. And never think again of suicide,
that's not an option, that's a way to say you are afraid of live, you didn't
gave life to you, so you should not take it as well, you are granted with it.
Reach out to freelancing sites, www.freelancer.com or others make an account
and starting posting on each job you find lower your rates for the first
couple of projects until you get some feedback. Put up a portfolio and you
will see that within a month if you do this full time you will for sure get
some work. Oh and yes, in the meantime you can search for a job. Waiting for
stuff to pop up from no where will not happen and think of this as a life
test, don't fail it. Good luck

------
jude1987
I can really empathize with the poster. I've been through a few similar
hardships and at 24 I already feel like I'm 40 with the amount of
responsibilities on my shoulders.

My own father passed away at 20 and left me with a 3 bedroom house and an ill
mother and almost zero cash. I've had to fight bailiffs from taking this
house, stopping the state sending me to jail for paying state taxes late (tip:
pay on time, the stress is not worth it)

Also graduating into the recession wasn't great and even the current job I'm
doing (working at a hot internet company directly with the founders) sees me
earning well below my true market value.

However, its not all doom and gloom. The OP has alot of time to recover. Here
are my own suggestions:

1) Exercise: 20 minutes a day do this for 2-3 weeks your mood will lift
completely

2) Do some sort of work: it doesn't matter

3) Date, approach girls, meet new people: if you can do this actively, it will
really take your mind of things

4) Avoid: anyone who brings you down, this may be difficult at first but find
a way around this. Bring people closer who make you happy and push those away
who bring you down. Your family is not exempt here and if the relationship is
toxic you need to keep it away from you

5) Remember and reflect that you are only 20. Some of the most jammy gits on
HN or founders who get an exit in early 20s are lucky, jammy gits. I've read
enough into the story to realize they are not all brilliant and these things
happen as a matter of coincidence and good fortune. However, think about what
you could learn. How did they get into that position, what was their
situation, try reach out to them. Last week at work I did a v.comprehensive
competitor analysis of everyone in my space and my boss said I need to know
what everyone else is doing here so we can learn. And he's been in the game
for 10 year.

I hope this helps, the HN community have given some formidable advice on this
thread!

------
blackiron
You have now the great opportunity to learn the best thing that you can learn
in life: to master your negative emotions. Keep the ballsy attitude you had
when you quit your job.

Also, check the "connecting the dots" Steve Jobs speech... you're just 20 and
in the future you'll be proud of how you overcame these difficulties.

------
jaypreneur
Things don't always work out. If it's the first time in your life that things
didn't work out, just brush yourself off and try again.

Everyone fails sometimes. It's about getting back at it that counts. You're
only 20 and you've already tried something most never attempt. Who cares if
you failed. Who cares if you're living with your parents. Who cares what your
friends say. As long as you learn from what's happened, it was worthwhile.

You can always find another job. Sure, maybe not one as good as the last, but
you can find something. And you can always try again in terms of starting your
own business. So, don't worry. You'll be okay. It's all about attitude and
perseverance.

You just need to take a step back and assess what happened, why it happened,
and what you can do to go from here. You're just 20 years old. You have your
whole life ahead of you!

Good luck!

------
rayhano
But it isn't over yet. ALL start-ups are MEANT to fail. What makes them work
is you (and your support network: friends, family) powering through the
depression and MASSIVE lows to showcase your potential in the form of a
product that people love and use.

I'm probably one month behind you; the quitting job to start a new venture is
straining my marriage, totally playing havoc with my confidence, affecting the
relationship with my friends, siblings, parents.

BUT, I keep in mind what life working for others was like. It was safe, it
paid the bills, maintained the home, BUT it gave me little sense of self-
worth, no ability to realise my dreams and left me feeling like all I would
ever be is a dreamer.

If you are looking for some support in getting through this and creating
something you are proud of, drop me an email: rayhan@rafiqomar.com

------
amanicdroid
It's not all so perfectly binary this freedom that you mentioned. One can have
a high-pressure job or one can live in a tent on the outskirts of society and
feel free. Likewise one can feel stifling panic in the previously mentioned
situations.

The secret is to find that environment in which you feel at your optimum or to
create it depending on the current social climate.

Another secret is to consider your expectations. Are you hoping to make a lot
of money doing nothing and that your friends will highly esteem you? If that's
the case then you'll need a trustfund from rich elders.

Try to guess what your optimum work/resources/time balance is and aim for that
doing what you are good at. If what you're good at isn't what you enjoy use
your resources to retrain.

And try to find new friends. The current ones sound like useless jackasses.

------
learc83
You're 20 you've got plenty of time.

Not everyone enjoys being an entrepreneur. If you feel like you're the kind of
guy who needs stable employment, consider this: get your GED (this should be
simple for someone like yourself), and take the SAT.

Then apply for college, you should be able to live off of loans while you
finish and keep freelancing for some extra cash. You can get a computer
science degree and be done by the time your 24.

Also if you need a little math help get this book
[http://www.amazon.com/Maths-Students-Survival-Self-Help-
Engi...](http://www.amazon.com/Maths-Students-Survival-Self-Help-
Engineering/dp/0521017076)

Once again, you're only 20, you're smart, you'll be fine. Just remember that
anything worth doing is hard--if it wasn't hard, everyone would do it, and it
wouldn't be worth doing.

------
supachupa
Don't listen to your family/friends. They are raised from birth to be
employees (they seek security), but your desire for freedom means that you
have a different personality and would be happier as an entrepreneur or small
business owner. They are just crabs trying to pull you back into the trap. If
you want to do this, then you need to fail many times over.. so learn to
embrace failure. Failure means you have learned something.

Read (or listen to audiobooks): Robert Kiyosaki: Rich Dad, Poor Dad & Cashflow
Quadrant. He also has one called "Before you quit your job", but read those
two first. Steven Pressfild: The War of Art

Also, you need to start surrounding yourself with like-minded people. Ditch
your old friends and make some that will inspire you to push yourself harder.
Try meetup.com.

Good luck!

------
skcin7
I didn't quit my full time job but I got fired and ironically (although it
still sucks to be fired) I am happy that they let me go because now I can work
full time on my independent projects. I am poor at the moment as well and live
with my parents, although I have a feeling that some of my projects are going
to work out and when that happens, I will be much happier to work for myself
rather than at another company.

If you really REALLY are unhappy with your decision to quit your job, then why
don't you just find another full time job? Sure, it wont be the same as the
one you quit... it will have pros and cons for sure. You could even possibly
try to go back to your old job and see what they say. Couldn't hurt to ask if
you left them on good terms.

------
b3b0p
What do you mean by you can't find a job? I know many good developers having a
full / part-time day job bagging groceries, serving tables at restaurants,
barista at the local coffee shop, and so on while still working on their
freelancing / personal business after. This is by choice.

What type of job are you trying to get?

You are 20? To me, you sound like the world is about to end and you are giving
up. Don't. Learn to be patient. Get you high school diploma, get any job you
can, and if you still have the time and energy, work on a startup, your own
business ideas, or do some freelancing for some extra income. Also, find time
to relax, enjoy friends, a hobby, and enjoy life in general. Assuming you are
good health otherwise, you have a lot more life left to live.

------
ryanlelek
I just want to let you know, people are here to help you out.

Start-up people (from my experience anyway) are the outcasts, but being
different is what liberates us.

We stick together, help out in any way we can, and share in our successes AND
failures.

I commend you for not only getting over the fear of taking the start-up leap,
but also being honest with everyone on Hacker News.

There are VERY few people I know with that amount of bravery, and it is
something you should be proud of.

You are not an idiot, and your father probably just doesn't fully understand
what happened.

Everyone has problems, but often hide behind a false mask of growth and
prosperity. Things are not always what they seem.

I'm sure the people here on HN would be happy to help you out in any way
possible, including myself.

We need to stick together in the good times and the bad.

Things will get better. They will.

------
Vitaly
WTF? You expect your consulting to work from the first fucking month? Didn't
you read any articles about it?

You are supposed to have some money reserves to keep you afloat for at least 6
moths. And you shouldn't expect your consulting to thrive until at least a
year later.

It takes time to build client base and it takes time to build your personal
brand. If you expected it all to magically just work you are just plain
stupid^H^H^H^H^HH^H^naive.

In my case it was somewhat faster as we switched from a full-time job to
working for the same company as contractors, but after a year, that first
client was a tiny blip on our radar.

Work on promotion, hit all the meetups and conferences, meet people, release
some cool open source, write a blog. THEN you will start getting clients.

~~~
keeptrying
The OP is already hard on himself as it is. You don't need to add to the
negativity.

------
bzalasky
Dude, you're only 20. Hang in there. I moved back in with my parents after
losing my job in 2009 (at the age of 25). It took me a year of hard work and
freelancing to get back on my feet. I moved out and then struggled to keep my
head above water for another 8 months doing my own thing... and then I was
able to get a job that I wasn't qualified for 2 years earlier. I was on track
to be a copywriter for awhile back in 2009, and then things got shaken up. Now
I'm a developer and so much happier. Figure out what you're passionate about,
and everything else will follow. Even if they aren't always easy, you're
fortunate to have a family to turn to. What type of work do you do now/what
skills do you have?

------
robertleeper7
Your honesty is commendable. And of value, to yourself and others. Take it
from someone who has been in your shoes - it gets better. I promise. Falling
off the horse is not the problem: it's the standing back up (ouch that hurt!),
dusting yourself off, catching that horse, and getting back on that is the
challenge. This is the challenge of life, and business. Setbacks are
challenges that teach us that we can cope and overcome adversity. And as you
have enough of these setbacks, you get better at handling future setbacks. And
your confidence grows. Do everything you can to overcome this point. You will
make it back onto the horse, and you will be better for it. I promise. I did,
and you will, too.

------
MartinCron
As was said before. You're not alone, in any of this. This doesn't have to
reflect on your value as a person.

 _my freelancing thing barely works_

You're currently the oldest you've ever been, but you're still pretty darn
young. A lot of freelancing is about the network of people who consider you a
known good quantity for solving the problems that they or their contacts have.
How big can your network of contacts be if you've only worked for a short
time?

Failure is painful and jarring, but nobody who isn't a total asshole is going
to look at a young programmer who couldn't get traction freelancing as a
failed person. Hell, I would look at that as a _positive_ thing, you're brave
enough to try things that might not work.

------
DallaRosa
It doesnt matter what others say you did the right thing. Just because your
first try didnt work it doesnt mean nothing else. Take advices in the other
comments. Get a part time job and go study arts or whatever you wanted to in
your other post. Get a part time and try to start your own business not with
freelancing but something else like builiding your own product. You still have
a lot of time and no need to panic. Leaving slavery(your old job) did give you
freedom yiu just gotta find out what to do with it. So no more feeling like a
loser. Find something to give you some money to live and tha gives you the
flexibility to find what you want do it! We're rooting for you!

------
ssent1
There have been so many insightful comments that are worth considering. For
inspiration, take a look at Richard Branson. Despite having a poor academic
record and having dropped out of HS, he figured out how to sell stuff that
people wanted. I'd also suggest reading "Think and Grow Rich." It's an old
book (1937); it's out of copyright, so you can find it free online. If you can
get past the older English, you'll find that many people have been in your
shoes and they've made remarkable contributions with their lives. You might
also want to check out Ryan Blair. He turned his life around to the point
where he could write the book, "Nothing to Lose, Everything to Gain."

------
syrio
Dude, you don't understand how young you are. At your age I was cleaning
kitchen sinks in the amry. I for one would incline into hiring you for having
this experience under your belt than the so-called rockstar employee in your
previous company.

It's ok to be foolish.

------
fantomas
Failing is OK as you can see from history: "Caesar served in 63 BC as a
quaestor in Spain, where in Cadiz he is said to have broken down and wept in
front of a statue of Alexander the Great, realizing that where Alexander had
conquered most of the known world at thirty, Caesar at that age was merely
seen as a dandy who had squandered his wife's fortunes as well as his own."

You'll be depressed for a while, but soon you realize that you have gained
valuable lesson. Failing is something that everybody does, and it's part of
everybody's life. (There is a physical reason for this: entropy* )

*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy>

------
nilsr
Simply get a job at the supermarket/fastfood or something similar. Just to get
the head off of financial problems. Everyone has tough times, but its not
likely that (if posted at all) those stories will be as popular as those shiny
stories you expected.

You are very young. Yes there are people successful and famous and all that at
your age, but that's the very very small minority. And even in 2 or 3 years,
you'll still be very young.

overcome your decision and learn from it.

Quitting a Job is easy. Making a living by becoming a freelancer is hard hard
work.

Also: If your friends mock you about your situation, I'd wonder what kind of
friends they are. Talk to your beloved ones, you closest friends about what's
going on.

------
dupe123
Sounds like you have a lot of negative influences in your life. You should cut
them out asap if that is how they are going to treat you. You made a decision.
It didn't work out. You should be commended for having the bravery to try it.

Seriously though, you are only 20. You have your whole life ahead of you.
People are right here to say you need to stop sitting around and feeling sorry
for yourself. Put that energy into getting a new job. Any job. Just get
yourself out of the house. Work your ass off to build up your resume, hack
projects on the side, contribute to open source, etc.

Don't commit suicide because that is just stupid and nobody is going to feel
sorry for you.

------
antidaily
You're 20 and live at home, which means you basically have no expenses. Build
something. Give yourself a month and attack the project. Workout in between
coding sessions to feel better about yourself. You can do it, dude. Just hang
tight.

------
dlikhten
My only bit of advice from all this is to try to get support from your
parents. Tell them how you feel. Tell them how they make you feel. Ask them
for some support while you try to get back on ur feet.

I don't know where you live, but here in NYC you can spit and it will land on
the feet of a guy offering you a job if you are a good programmer. Companies
are fighting tooth and nail for good devs. Maybe you live somewhere where jobs
are scarce and companies can do this.

meetup.com, look for meetups revolving around programming. I bet you will find
work there. People come from other states just to find devs and try to recruit
some ppl with relocation or remote work.

------
artsim
It's always darkest just before dawn, so do not give up hope just yet. Hang in
there, you took a risk that did not pay off, so take a few minutes to lick off
your wounds then move on, take it as a learning experience and do not repeat
the mistakes you made.

Your story touched me as it's exactly what I am living through at the moment,
its now 6 months since I quit my well paying job and being broke constantly is
no fun, especially after life threw some unexpected twists my way, my dad
being sick and me taking time off to stay with him the past 2 months till he
got better.

Point of it all is there will be lows in life but also highs, so hold on and
take heart.

------
kpennell
I'm 25 now and can say that even in 5 years, life gets better. Your brain
develops more and you'll probably find your emotions swinging less violently.
I had a lot of depression and anxiety issues at that time and have very few
now...I'm still an intense person, but am doing well mentally...

But yeah, being broke at that age can feel really hopeless, even though it's
not...you just gotta put in the work to get yourself out of it....

Good on you for quitting, that job sounded terrible...just hang in there and
get any job!

Also, keep a journal, and you'll be amazed to look back at all this intense
shit later, it'll all seem so ok and you'll wonder why you stressed so much.

------
tps
Cheer up, you're only 20. A lot of people will miss you. Life isn't easy.
Don't make it harder on those who love you. You took a risk and it didn't work
out. Get back on your feet and give it another go when you are ready.

I was working a lot throughout college and even high school when I had my own
website generating income. Looking back, I wish I had enjoyed life a lot more
rather than focus on money.

Get some part time job to keep you afloat.

Go back to school, enjoy being a 20 year old. You will be amazed at how many
opportunities that just land in your lap while at school, interacting with
your fellow classmates. Join clubs or anything where there are people around.

------
dopp
1\. I'm from India, and most of the kids are still living with parents at the
age of 20. So stop worrying about it.

2\. Find out exactly what you want to do. It might take some time, but you
gotta continue the search. Meanwhile at least find a part time job to pay your
bills. If you're smart enough to have a good job in the first place, you'll at
least find a part time job in a restaurant.

3\. No one else can make things happen for you but you. Stop feeling sorry for
yourself, prep up the gun, and start shooting.

There's no gurantee that you'll be the next Steve Jobs, but not doing anything
about your current situation is a sure shot way of failure.

All the best.

------
tedchs
Hey mannicken,

Just wanted to share my story to maybe give you some encouragement. Between
the ages of 16 and 20, I was doing freelance work. It was OK but not
"amazing". An opportunity came up for a full-time job and I chose to take it.
I was able to leverage what I had done freelance into demonstrating I had the
resume and skills for the job I wanted. Hopefully you can do the same thing --
think "what have I achieved?" and make a resume based around that. Then, get
out there and network! Tell everyone you meet what your skillset is and that
you're doing a search for the perfect job. You'll find it!

------
jiipee_2
I am just turning 40. You are 20 years younger than me. You have only
opportunities - use them. Try things you might like, apply jobs that sound
interesting. You'll find your thing again.

But, more importantly... You sound like you have a depression. Not the kind
you can just 'shrug off', but the kind that requires medication (dirt cheap
nowadays) and counselling (costs more, but is more effective).

This may sound nasty, and coming out of blue. But taking care of your mental
health will give you the strength you need to find yourself and your place in
the world again. I know this, because I had depression too. 20 years ago.

------
ajibola
Judging from your previous HN post i take it that your reason for quitting was
because you hated where you were working and were being worked out. Its
difficult in such situations, but you have to be prepared to lower your
expectations cause they may be set too high and that is why you are feeling
bad. A lower paying job can be really satisfying, you are young and can build
your skill set. Even if you were much older you can still build your skill
set. Start from somewhere you can set you feet in and go from there. I would
like to read a post of you succeeding in your next endeavor.

------
alexwolfe
Not sure this message will find you, hope it does. You're 20 and made a
mistake, that's ok. Really it is. At 20 years old there is usually very little
chance of being an out the gate success, its rare. But what this experience
shows is you have guts and clearly a ton of ambition. Believe me, this is a
tough time but do your best to recover, its time for plan B. Go back to school
if you want and look for other jobs. Once you get back on track you will truly
value this experience because when you are ready to try again, you'll come
more prepared. Good luck and keep your head up.

------
madhouse
The only stupid thing you did is feeling down about a single wrong decision
made very early in your life. Don't worry, you'll make much more of those in
the next 60 years, and this one will pale in comparsion. And anyway, the
latest one will always seem to be the worst.

Don't worry about it, at least, not too much. By worrying too hard, and
blaming yourself, you only make it worse. Suck it up, and accept that you're
just like any other human: we make mistakes. We then go and fix them.

So do that. You're only 20, there's a tremendous amount of time still ahead,
and opportunities you don't even recognise just yet.

------
daimyoyo
It sucks to read this, but I have a very similar experience to this. I quit my
job after 2 years because I was ready to strike out on my own and try my hand
at a startup. I failed almost instantly. I have spent the last 2 years
struggling because I wasn't able to get my business going, and I didn't
qualify for unemployment. The worst part was the company went under 5 months
later and had I held on, I would have had 99 weeks of unemployment to use to
get my idea off the ground. In my life I can count the number of regrets I
have, but that is without a doubt the biggest one.

------
toblender
Why tiptoe through life only to arrive at death?

I was in the same position as you a few months ago, working like a slave at a
startup.

You made the right choice, in quitting. Clearly you were unhappy with what you
were doing.

Stay positive.

Find a mentor, read books like "War of Art" or "One minute millionaire".

Be thankful for what you do have. Your health, make sure to workout and
maintain it, sleep at a regular schedule. I struggle with this as well, but if
you aren't healthy you will be depressed and it will show in your work and
prospective in life.

Pick up a skill, and get really dam good at it. If you are good at something
you will get paid for it eventually.

------
anotherstupid
I did the same; quit my boring job to try this startup thing, just to find
later that I'm maybe too lazy to be an entrepreneuer. Well, I got my old job
back, but quit again after few months. During that time I also messed things
up with my gf. We have a young child. My parents live far away in rural area,
moving there would kill my (miserable) social life so it's not an option. Oh
and I'm almost 30. I feel very stressed & depressed about this whole mess
right now.

OP: You are very young & only responsible for yourself (no children), things
could be much more worse.

------
typicalrunt
A couple things:

 _Fathers_

It's funny how fathers react to being entrepreneurial, especially if they are
the one-job-for-life kind of guy. I have had the same problem in the past with
my father, and he always says that I should stay where I am, in the same job,
until I retire. However, on the job front I'm a nomadic person and he just
doesn't understand that. But then again, I can't understand his world either.

The best thing to do is to sit down and talk with each other and try to
educate yourselves on what it's like living in the other's shoes. He probably
has the best intentions, but when lacking a frame of reference any argument
can come off as just complaining.

 _Depression_

Everyone gets depressed about their situation. But you wouldn't believe what
kind of echo chamber you have between your ears. The worst thing you can do is
to constantly listen to yourself, because you'll just churn the same though
(usually bad) over and over in your head, and it never gets better. Sometimes,
it takes a metaphorical slap to the side of the head (or a literal one, if
that's your thing) from someone else before you snap out of it. Go out and
talk to your peers. Don't talk to your parents or siblings about it, but
rather people who aren't there to spare your feelings.

 _Difficulty_

I completely agree that freelancing and entrepreurship is difficult. It's not
something we learn in public school, and not everyone majors in business in
college. That said, you're 20 so don't beat yourself up about it. From what I
read, you don't have any strings attached to your life (mortgage, wife, child)
so you can bounce back very easily. It'd also be easy for you to study and get
those diplomas, especially the high school one.

This may sound harsh, but failing to get a high school diploma (where they
only seem to hand them out these days to everything with a pulse) is pathetic.
It's the single easiest thing you can do to make sure your resume doesn't get
tossed in the bin. School is important. You may not think so, but your
employer does. And school is one of those things where you don't realize you
are using it, so it's not fair to yourself to say that you don't need to learn
X or Y because it's not relevant to you right now.

~~~
ahoyhere
_This may sound harsh, but failing to get a high school diploma (where they
only seem to hand them out these days to everything with a pulse) is
pathetic._

No, it's really not. He already had one high-paying job without it, why on
earth would you zero in on that?

Most people get their HS diploma. What good does it do them? The prerogative
of schools is to pass kids. The value of a HS diploma is just about nil these
days. It's only good as a divider when most of the people you're looking at
are semi-literate and ignorant.

We're not talking about a semi-literate farm boy, here. We're talking about
somebody who's capable of expressing himself clearly, reading and writing
critically, and obviously capable of a valuable job skill as well.

Not having a HS diploma doesn't even stop you from going to college, if you
value higher ed. You don't need a HS diploma to enroll in good community
colleges. Many homeschoolers have gotten into great universities as a first
approach, too.

------
ChrisNorstrom
ALL of the assholes in your life telling you, you made a bad decision, are the
real dumbasses.

People fail to realize that the outcomes of decisions must be measured twice.
Once in the short term and once in the long term.

There are many times when a decision is BAD in the short term and GOOD in the
long term. Other times (like the decisions our Congress makes) are good in the
short term and bad in the long term.

You might be in a bad place now, but in the long term it might be for the
better. Just hang in. If you're at your worst, then it's only going to get
better from here on out. Give it time.

------
edibrac
How about make a game about your situation? You seem to be emotionally charged
enough so why not channel it into something that may lead you to other ideas?

Stick with college and finish up - you might stumble onto something that fits.
And if not, at least you have a that piece of paper, which I used to think it
was to impress people but really it's so the glaring absence of a degree
doesn't jump out.

That said, you don't HAVE to finish. It will buy you time to discover,
investigate other paths.

Back to the game idea, how about make the game about the future of your next
10 years?

------
LostInTheWoods2
"My friends make fun of me for making a retarded life decision" ... You need
to find some new friends. If these so called friends can't find it in
themselves to show a little empathy for you, they are not your friends.

ps. Not working for the man is always a good decision. You will never starve
working for the man, but you will also never get ahead. It sounds like you've
got a crisis of faith. You need to ask yourself what you really want in life.
If you can't stomach life without a safety net, then by all means, go back to
a full-time job.

------
adk
I can relate to some of your feelings. It sounds go me like you are burned out
and are questioning your chosen career path. The uncertainy of freelan cing
can be a lot to handle when you are already not feeling at the top of your
game. Don't worry, Jou left an unhealthy environment, that was a good move.
You will figure out the rest. Give youself a break, getting over burnout takes
time.

Drop me a line, I run a mobile dev shop and I have a lot of well-paying web,
Android and iPhone work. I provide on-the-job training as well.

------
braveheart1723
You've had a lot of positive advice here.

Personally, all that positivity, whether from randoms or your mum never really
helped me. Weirdly I found articles like this to bring me up for a couple of
days.

[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190480030457647...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904800304576474451102761640.html)
How Depression affected people like Lincoln, Churchill and Ghandi.

I guess the thought that even the greats battled great adversity and
resistance helps. How's that for a Nietzchian thought.

------
dogriffiths
Visit <http://www.befrienders.org/>

Don't get discouraged. What seems like a huge thing now will be a tiny thing
as it disappears in the rear-view mirror.

------
abbott
first, please talk to someone about your depression. it's temporary, i
promise.

second, companies/businesses that require or care about a degree or diploma
are usually the worst. you had a high paying engineering job? well, that
should be sufficient to get you into your next job, and if you sell them on
who you are as a person/potential employee, even better.

third, you're only 20, and i know how that sounds, but it's true. relax. your
life is just starting, and what you think you want or know now, is mostly
going to change A LOT over the next 5 years. it might help to figure out some
short-term goals, and go from there. we all go through rough patches in our
lives, and you actually had the balls to quit and face a challenge head-on.
this is something most people can't imagine doing, so it's easy for them to
criticize others for doing it, which is why they're pathetic.

if i was 20 again, i would scrape together enough for a bus ticket to the bay
area (palo alto, mtn. view, san francisco, etc.), and find a job at a startup.
if that's not for you, then take the advice of others and get a job at a
supermarket or somewhere just to get your brain on something else. then, focus
on befriending people who were more like you, and decide what is best for
yourself going forward, one day at a time.

some of us have been right where you are, and some of us know exactly how you
feel. it will workout, you just have to ride out the rough times and climb
your way back. no one on HN is going to judge you. as you can see there's a
lot of support here.

------
wmboy
"What doesn't make it any easier is that I'm 20"

Dude! You've got your whole life ahead of you, go make MORE mistakes, lots
more.

Ultimately though don't give up. If you're not sure what you want to do, go
get a job (any job) and go back to the drawing board.

Want a job? Just land yourself some interviews and when they ask for an
explanation of the gap in your resume, just say "I had a once-in-a-lifetime
opportunity to pursue [insert your story], in the end it didn't work out, but
I learnt a ton and am excited about re-entering the workforce".

------
launchplus
Hey,

I think the most important thing for you to do now, is to get rid of the
depressed and suicide thoughts. It sure helps to talk to people about it.

I'm rather messed up as well, as I gave up several well paying jobs to pursue
my own startup dreams which eventually failed and I went the freelancing route
which didn't work out too.

Speaking to people about my situation lifted my mood considerably and I urge
that you do the same too.

Sort out those emotional issues first, and slowly plan to get your career back
on track. Suicide won't solve anything.

Get better soon dude.

------
joshaidan
Based on what I read from your original post it sounds like you made the right
decision at your old job. Well I can emphasize with you on this post, the one
part that doesn't make any sense is that you're only 20 years old. That's
considered very young in this world, and works to your advantage.

Anyway, if you're thinking of suicide, please seek out professional help.
Please!!! If there's anything you should do next, that would be it. And don't
be ashamed of doing so, it's the cool thing to do.

------
teyc
It is entirely normal to feel the way you do at the moment. Chalk it up to
learning.

Try to remember what didn't happen to you:

1\. You didn't join the army and your leg got blown off.

2\. You didn't work in an asbestos factory and now you are worried about
getting cancer.

3\. You didn't get thrown in jail and have a criminal record for life.

You quit your job, and the other plans didn't come off. That is it. The damage
is monetary and can be fixed with money.

Wear your mistakes as a badge of honour, because it is what informs you of who
you are.

Sit down, clear your head and a plan will come together.

------
pcubed
Dude, don't harm yourself, it's just no worth it. Even living on welfare is
better than giving up life entirely. I have struggled with thoughts like that
for years myself, and I've been graced enough to know it's never worth it. My
company, Bloomberg, is hiring a lot right now. Email me
(<http://scr.im/daveslab>) at any time if you're looking for a nice place to
work, even if it's just to get back on your feet again.

------
mikegreenberg
This might sound harsh, but hear me out.

Suicide? Come on. Really now. You can't pay some bills and are feeling lost so
you want to KILL yourself?

Everyone makes mistakes. Some of them feel "stupid" in retrospect, but none of
them should instill regret. You are 20 years old. You have BARELY begun to
live. I speak from the RIPE old age of 29 and have experienced SO much in just
the last 10 years.

When I was 20 years old, I was just about to drop out of college. I had a full
ride to a private university. I just had to maintain my grades. However, I was
sheltered as I grew up and was not prepared for the freedom of being able to
make my own decisions. Instead of studying, completing homework and preparing
for exams for a heavy 18 credit-hour semester; I went out drinking, partying
and exercising my right of free will.

Long story short....my grades nose-dived. I not only lost my full ride
scholarship, but the organization who was offering it made me accountable for
the 3 semester's worth of funds I had already "wasted". About midway through
the third semester I was in a deep depression as I felt that my 1.8 GPA was
unrecoverable to reinstate my scholarship at the rate I was currently going. I
was going to screw up the biggest opportunity I had going for me in my life so
far. (To be clear, this was the first and only opportunity I had in my life so
far.) I felt the world was going to end.

Then I made the most grown up decision I could ever make. I dropped out, moved
in with my parents, got a low paying job working a call center, and started
paying back my $45K in student debt and loans. I hated living with my
parents.... especially when I JUST got a taste of freedom. But I learned more
discipline and responsibility over the next 5 years than I did in the entire
20 years prior. (Maybe not a fair comparison, but it's true.) I STILL haven't
payed back all of that debt, but I DID finally get back to school. I brought
my 1.8 GPA with me. And I graduated just a year ago. Magna cum laude. (Second
highest honors.) I got an internship through school which I'm still working at
and making good money again. And I really think I made it this far because I
took responsibility for my actions and prioritized a comeback.

Life is fucking HARD! Nothing that was ever worth doing was easy. But the
lessons and experiences we gain while we try to overcome our challenges are
some of the most rewarding things this life will ever offer you. You were
right to quit such a slave-driving position. You're suppose to be working to
LIVE and not living to work. Remember that. And persevere. Life will fly by
faster than you can imagine and there are still MANY experiences left to find.

------
willpower101
This person is the poster-child for why you get a degree AND and internship /
experience in some marketable field.

People all over swear up and down you DON'T need a degree and they are right.
But having a degree means that your personal safety net is higher. You don't
fall back to square one if life hits you in the face all at once. Stints and
Wendy's, Pizza Hut, and Best Buy are long gone. The worst that can happen is I
have to go back to a white collar job in tech support. ;)

~~~
willpower101
Wait a minute. He's 20?! Christ. What kind of plan did you / do you have? You
say you like art, why not get in school full time? Fill out the fafsa, get
financial aid, live on campus instead of driving to that little community
college, and go broaden yourself for a few years!

If you need help navigating the financial aid system and seeing just exactly
what you quality for then shoot me an email @ gmail. I'm a master at it.

------
cupcake_death
Mannicken, your 20... Pain is what you'll experience as a result of life and
through it you get growth. I'd suggest perhaps some volunteer work with those
in a worse situation than yourself, such as the homeless, it's a great way to
get perspective and help others, (Rather than thinking about yourself and
what's only a temporary situation). Time and good judgement will fix things
for you. But in a culture of instant gratification, it may not be in your
time.

~~~
mannicken
I'm hanging out with the homeless sometimes. It puts a lot of the shit in
perspective.

------
andy_shi
I can see why you can't succeed: You are not tough enough. Come on, you are
young, you have no family to feed. Why can't you fail a couple times? The
majority of the entrepreneurs are very young, like you. Not because you are
better than us older folks. No, not even physically. But because you got
nothing to lose. And you can always start fresh.

But you got to suck it up. You got to be strong mentally. Dealing with VC or
the market is 10x worse than your father or friends.

------
hnwh
dude, you're still VERY young.. instead of crying about your lack of
education, GO BACK TO SCHOOL. You whole life is ahead of you. You've lost
NOTHING by taking a risk

------
hernan7
My recommendation is to take your lumps and move on.

Can you convince your parents to support you for a couple of years until you
get your high school diploma and start college? Go into some money-making
career that they approve of if needed. Once in college, you can start
networking and planning your next move.

Just make them feel like you are back to being a good citizen and that you
will go back to earn your keep once you have your college degree.

Oh, and tell your so-called "friends" to go pound sand.

------
lbl
Hi Dont give up. It always leads to something good. I'm mulling on a few
concepts to work on. I'm not rich, if my <http://justdazzle.me> idea picks up
then maybe. Or the card game i invented (fucku) picks up
<http://acardgamewithattitude.com>

Let me know hmb143 at gmail

If you want to team up then let me know we can chat to see if wavelengths
match. Then we can work on an idea.

~~~
chc
I don't understand how you think justdazzle.me will make you rich, or even
make you money at all. It's just you playing the lottery and lowering your
expected outcome — and the expected outcome for playing the lottery is already
negative.

------
ohvnaq
i did graphics work for 3 years, and got so fed up i quit my job a year ago,
looking for freedom. the first few months were very nice. i then started to
feel down and depressed sometimes. my initial thoughts of freelancing or doing
my own thing didn't get followed through. now i'm broke and i still have some
hefty loans with the bank that i have to deal with now and then.

now i learn to appreciate a job more. i had to experience this to learn that,
and i can't imagine learning it any other better way. when you dont stay
focused your mind tends to go bananas and that's no fun, so get a job or have
something to do that keeps you focused.

and on another note, i have a 17 year old brother who was heavily depressed
for a year or two, many times suicidal, but he's fine now. depressed people
are everywhere, you're not alone :) just be cool about it. try your hands at
different things, easily-depressed people usually are sensitive and have
artistic traits, if you find your art (or whatever it is you love doing) it
can bring you up big time. but again, be cool about it, depression is just
part of life, and many times it goes away before the person knows what
happens.

if it gets unbearable, go to a psychiatrist and get some medications, they
help.

------
ideamonk
I get to hear about how stupid I was to reject a regular job at a bigco from
my dad. We've an agreement for an year, where I get to try out all
unconventional ways to make money(startups, freelancing, indie game-dev,etc).
Everytime he comes up with a phrase starting with "you should have...", I
offer to add another month to the one year promise :-)

Since I work with a remote programmer from home, this becomes quite a
distraction when dad's on a vacation.

------
ascendant
Most business don't work out. Most people have a litany of failures before
they have their shining success. Your father needs to shut his damn mouth, and
you need to toss your "friends" and find people that will support you through
thick and thin. Most companies are scrambling to find developers so if you're
a programmer I don't see you having a terrible time getting something else
lined up until you're ready to give it another go.

------
samirageb
I never really post on HN (even though I should) and saw this post and had to
respond.

First, if you ARE VERY SERIOUS about suicide, please seek help as others have
mentioned. I suspect you're simply very sad and venting, but please don't do
anything rash.

Next, please listen to/watch this:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTJ7AzBIJoI> And then this:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlfKdbWwruY>

Perspective is the first thing you lose when you're depressed and when you're
under 25, it's so easy to do. Don't put so much pressure on yourself, you took
some chances, it didn't work out, life is far from over. Let me say I envy
you. That's right, ENVY. You've learned at 20, what I learned at 31. You are
VERY ahead of the game, and have SOOO many options because you have youth on
your side and the pain today will guarantee your 20s are more productive &
fruitful than they would have been had you not gone through this experience.

The most important thing you can do at this time is seek advice from someone
you trust and respect, and begin taking baby steps. Don't try to tackle your
whole life at once, just 1-step at a time. Surround yourself with supportive
people, and strip the negativity out of your life at this time. Friends that
kick you when you're down are either not real, or immature. They are useless
to you at this time in your life, so stay away from them. Be honest with your
parents, and tell them you need their emotional support to help you through
this time. Parents make mistakes, and ultimately their emotions often get the
best of them when they see you struggle, because they 'knew better'. It's
important to share your feelings with them, and make them understand that you
WANT to change your life and need them to support your attempts at doing so.
It's such a critical step.

To share a personal story...

I graduated high school at 16. Yes, 16, and I was #9 in my graduating class. I
then proceeded to FAIL out of college because I couldn't take care of myself
and wasn't responsible enough to handle the freedom that comes with college.
Going from 'bright all your life' to 'college failure' was an absolute low
point. Suicide was contemplated frequently. The disappointment on my parents'
faces was always there. Trying to get back into a different college was
actually VERY difficult, because many colleges require transfer students to
have a good academic standing from your previous institution, so talk about a
perpetual kick in the groin. During this time, I had 2 choices. Use my brain &
determination to figure a way out, or quit on life. I chose the latter.

I enrolled in the only college for 2-classes that would accept me as a part-
time student for one semester, while holding down some b.s. job. It was
depressing and embarrassing. The next semester, I used my 2-class semester
creds. to give me 'good academic standing' and was able to apply to a better
university for part-time status. During this semester, I took classes at both
colleges (25 miles apart) with a 1-hr gap between my classes to allow for
travel time. (That commute sucked) Exactly 1-year after getting kicked out of
my university, I took my 2-semesters worth of transcripts and petitioned to
get re-accepted into the uni. that kicked me out; my petition was approved,
with conditions. I was placed on academic probation, and had 60 hours of
1.1/4.0 cumulative GPA at the time. I had burned through all my electives and
was a Math/CS major, meaning the next 50-60 hours of class were purely CORE
classes, no electives. I needed to have a 2.0 cumulative to graduate, meaning
the hardest classes I had in front of me, required a 3.2 GPA average. The
college I was attending was among the top 5 in engineering in the country, so
turning my scholastic life around was pretty unlikely. I talked with the Dean
of my college and started regularly presenting him my progress, to show I was
committed.

For 2 years, I was on academic probation and thankfully had established some
critical relationships to help me during this period in time. By the time I
had enough credits to graduate, I was only able to average a 2.9 GPA during
the rest of my time and did NOT achieve my 2.0 cumulative. I was not allowed
to. My efforts to be transparent however, paid off. The Dean chose to extend a
privilege to me having witnessed such a tremendous turnaround. The official
name of this privilege was 'Forgiveness'. Every class I had failed I had to
retake, but at this uni. grades were averaged, not replaced. 'Forgiveness'
basically meant that the Dean could start wiping away F's from my transcript
until my cum. GPA reached a 2.0 to graduate. It was the most ridiculous thing
I had never heard of, but I some how managed to graduate from the university I
previously failed out of.

It was only after this time, that I truly began to understand the value of
hard work and smart thinking. You are smarter than you give yourself credit
for. Surround yourself with positive energy, take baby steps, and create a
plan for what you're going to try to do each week. Set realistic goals, like
'Apply to 20 jobs', as opposed to 'get a job'. You will make it through this,
and please share your progress on HN. Let the community be your support system
and see your progress, because your experience will help the next person that
experiences similar hardships.

Good luck. Really. And if it gets too hard, watch those videos again or find
other stories from successful people that never attended college. There's no
set path to life. You can do this.

~~~
nate_meurer
Damn, good story. Thanks for posting it. That's a hard landing you did at age
16. I can pretty much guarantee that would have ruined me.

------
Jun8
You may be in a miserable state right now, but you've got the most important
thing: your youth. I'm twice your age and still trying to find enough guts to
do what you did.

Remember: Nothing, _nothing_ is worse than being late!

    
    
      OH YES
      there are worse things than
      being alone
      but it often takes decades
      to realize this
      and most often
      when you do
      it's too late
      and there's nothing worse
      than
      too late.
    
      Charles Bukowski

------
seddona
Remember that depression is just a chemical imbalance in your brain that's
making you think your an idiot. Dont identify with it, and please talk to
somebody in real life about this, HN will be of limited help here.

HN is a VERY VERY skewed view of the world, remember your hearing mostly just
the success storys of the best of the best in this field, so dont judge
yourself so harshley.

Best of luck anyway and please please talk to somebody about this in person.

------
misterseo
I quit my $150K Info Tech job in the spring of 2009 due to extreme quality of
life dissatisfaction. I was out of work a year. I spent that year learning
Google's algo. Now I make 1/3 of what I once did, but I have a life again. I
work 9-5 M-F to keep a lawyer on page 1 and my quality of life has gone up
dramatically. I was working 7 days a week 20 hrs a day all over the world. I
wouldn't go back to that for $500K a yr.

------
qeorge
It gets better brother. I've been there. Keep fighting. You're not alone.

You've already done the hard part. You've redefined yourself as someone who
works for himself. Taking a job to keep going doesn't change that - it
reenforces it.

Just keep doing good work and treating your clients well. You'll get more; it
will snowball. It just builds really slowly at first.

Please drop me a line anytime - george@illuminatikarate.com. We're a small
group and we need to stick together.

------
dfischer
I want to point out that your "gig" which you quit was bat-shit insane and not
an environment to be in. You quit it because it was fucking awful. They made
all your staff work consistently overnight and completely forsake your sanity
and happiness.

You made the right move. Pivot to be happy. You tried the self-employment
route. It didn't work. Get another job.

What line of work are you in? Ruby? Contact me if you want advice/work.
"Bigf1sch" on Skype.

------
jimmyjazz14
Well if it makes you feel any better when I was 20 I was a high-school drop
out working in fast food and STILL living with my parents. Things got better
and then they got worse, but then they got much better again. Every time life
took dips I got better at dealing with them and chances are you will too.

You are young, you can take chances now and you should. Someday taking chances
may not be choice you can easily make anymore.

------
DodgyEggplant
PLEASE DON'T CONSIDER SUICIDE. PLEASE.

The feeling that all doors are closed is ALWAYS misleading. There is always an
open door, alas maybe you don't see it today, or tomorrow, but it's there. The
one thing you should do is to find ASAP someone who never shouts at you, who
is not blaming you, and who is cab listen and consider the options. THERE ARE
MANY OPTIONS. YOU WILL GET OUT no matter how unrealistically it looks right
now.

------
jason_slack
One of the best things I did when I was really burned out from IT was get a
job at a Starbucks. The money wasnt great compared to an IT salary, but I had
fun, learned a lot about process management, adaption, leadership and
communication. I worked that job for a year and I only left when I was offered
a job by a customer (that I saw everyday) and it was in academia, not IT. I am
happier than I have ever been.

------
cdelahousse
Buddy, you had the balls to take a risk. You fell on your face, but at least
you took the risk. You did more good in that failure than most dreamers do in
their lives. That willingness to put it all on the line will probably serve
you all your life.

And all your life is what you have ahead of you. Dying at 20 would be such a
waste. Especially for a lad that has balls the size of grapefruits who's
willing to follow his dreams.

------
vigivi
You did the right thing.

But it's time to move on, life is too short. Try to start again, like the
Phoenix, from your ashes.

You can start a new life from what You think is a failure (it is not, because
You didn't anything wrong!).

Maybe You can consider the idea of having a job in another field, maybe You
should try something less stressing, and I'm saying this because I'm a
developer too!

Obviously, at the beginning the money will be not too much, but why You
shouldn't try?!

Let us know! :)

------
par
First of all dude, not to be an ageist, but you are 20. You are going to have
so many jobs in your life, you're JUST getting started. In 10 years when you
are doing something entirely different you are going to be proud of how crazy
you were. Take it in stride, you'll find work, keep looking. In the mean time
be a bartender or something. That is what I'd do if I couldn't find any
development work.

------
rsheridan6
Are you working on a startup or something like that? I think the assumption in
the original thread might have been that you were, given the nature of this
website. If so, your old job would have made it utterly impossible to
accomplish anything. You would be better off to sweep floors or deliver pizzas
30 hours/week, if it came to that - if you're starting a startup.

What are you doing with this free time?

------
dholowiski
Hi, I'm 34 and I did the same thing two years ago. I managed to spend all of
my savings and I'm now $22K in debt. I ended up giving up and getting a 'real'
job- now I get to spend the next many years paying for my 'experience'. Now I
have a new appreciation for 'side projects', bootstrapping and profitability
from day one.

It'll get better - but go get a job, right now, it'll make you feel much
better.

------
coob
I think your issues are greater than the fact you quit your job. In your
previous post you sounded rather noncommittal on your entire career path
(coding). What other careers have you explored?

If you don't think you're going to find happiness in your occupation, make
sure you try and find a job that you can leave at work. Then find the
happiness in your real life.

If you ever feel suicidal please call 1-800-SUICIDE.

------
Peter_V
It's time to Pivot.

You are young, go to college (take all the student loans you need to stay on
campus) and get a solid degree that you can do something with when you
graduate, Computers, engineering, etc. Join a fraternity, make some of the
best friends you will ever have in your life, drink some beer and enjoy life
for a few years.

We all make mistakes, it's how we rebound from them that defines us.

Best of luck. You can do it!

Peter

------
christo_
This is when you toughen yourself up. You're lucky you get to learn this now
when you don't have to look after anyone else. Life is hard, but it gets
easier with practice.

Do make sure you get sleep, good food and exercise because this fuels your
brain and that is your greatest asset.

Time to level up on your life. Do what it takes and you will be amazed by your
new capabilities a year from now.

------
Textfyre
Ah brother. You have only begun to understand the pain of entrepreneurialism.
This is what separates Those who eventually find success and those who give up
and go back to a corporate job.

We have to stand up to depression, zero support, family abuse, eating
crackers...and gut-wrenching despair.

All because we believe in ourselves.

Stand up brother. Your path has not ended. It has only begun. Learn. Live. Try
again.

David C.

------
john2x
I'm thinking of doing the same thing a few months from now, but not to start
freelancing but to look for a better job.

I also have some "plan" on what I'd do afterwards, but in the end they are
just plans. So I'm a bit worried, especially after reading your post. I'll
definitely need to think about this more.

I hope what comes to me won't be as bad as yours. And best of luck in
recovering.

------
raarky
Not everything we do leads to success. The key is to keep at it in some way.

In hindsight, it's easy to correct your mistakes. Life isn't clear cut and
obvious. You know now what it takes to do something that most people in the
world have never done. Even if it isn't the right thing for you.

Life is about experience and I think what you've done has given you some
pretty damn good xp :)

------
random12341234
You should try define yourself by overcoming failure and learning from it.

expand your skill set; build your resume by doing something
interesting/possibly valuable to future employers; connect with local small
business/startups to find work (while taking on a shitty job somewhere if you
have to)

you've got some time start using it and stop beating yourself up

you should also consider getting a GED

------
Supermighty
First and foremost you need to extract yourself from such negative people. If
your father is literally calling you and an idiot, and your friends are not
supportive, then you need to get them out of your life.

Starting out on your own is hard work, and even harder when you don't have
positive and supportive family and friends to help you through the rough
times.

------
jimbobimbo
So, you quit a crappy job and your freelancing didn't work you would expect.
Do you really need to ask an advice to find another job before cutting your
veins? You are JUST twenty years old to think your life is over because you
did what's right for you (newsflash: quitting the abusive non-professional
environment was GOOD decision).

------
seejay
Please listen to the famous Stanford Commencement Speech by Steve Jobs. It has
helped me greatly in situations I feel depressed about life. I still listen to
it again and again! worth every second!

Here's the youtube link <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1R-jKKp3NA>

------
uripom
I'd recommend reading Martin Seligman's "Learned Optimism" book when you have
a chance, as it would be very helpful in reframing the way you think about
your experience:

[http://www.amazon.com/Learned-Optimism-Change-Your-
Mind/dp/0...](http://www.amazon.com/Learned-Optimism-Change-Your-
Mind/dp/0671019112)

------
reason
Fuck your dad, seriously.

Your parents are probably foreigners who do not understand the concept of
pursuing your hobbies and making decisions that make you happy. You seem to be
getting no support from anyone around you, and that sucks. I've been through
it, and am going through it now.

My father never supported any of my hobbies. In junior high I knew I wanted to
get into CS and business. I would watch TechTV on a daily basis, fiddle with
my computer, etc. I loved it, but dad didn't give an ounce of fuck, pushed me
to pursue a more stable field, and now I'm in grad school with years of work
ahead of me that I will likely hate. I'm trying to make the best of it, but it
shouldn't have happened. And when it comes to other personal areas of my life,
they are still incredibly unsupportive.

So I've learned something that you should too, and it's that you need to
_only_ rely on yourself for drive and encouragement. Your parents will die
soon and you'll be left alone. Your friends will move away and leave you
behind. You'll find yourself relying on yourself to make it, so learn to be
self-driven and to not give a single fuck about what your father or friends
have to say.

Although you're not getting any support from those immediately around you,
know that you've got tons of support here from people who've been and who are
where you are now.

People might respond defending your dad, but don't listen to them. Parents
often forget about the huge level of influence they have on the development of
their children, and the lack of support and encouragement can really fuck with
a person's self-esteem and drive. Shitty parents really rub me the wrong way.

For parents reading: encourage and motivate your children.

~~~
j45
OOC, were your parents foreigners?

------
Tichy
Please don't commit suicide. At age 20, your options are still basically
infinite.

Maybe having people yelling at you on a regular basis is not the best thing
for your (mental) health.

Have you considered moving to a different city, as far away as possible from
your depressing past (your post about your job also doesn't sound that much
fun)?

------
citricsquid
I'm almost in your position, not through choice though. I have an absolutely
wonderful gig about to come to an end (unless I get renewed, but it's
unlikely) and will never be able to get back to where I am now (I'm also 20 as
of last week). No college, no education and not skilled enough to be in
demand.

Fun fun fun eh.

------
namank
Dude you are pretty lucky that you failed so hard so young. I know the climb
up is going to be hard (depressing and humbling, actually) but now you know
what failure feels like. Now you know what counts and whats bullshit.

Hang on man, keep on keeping on. Take it one day at a time, only place to go
from here is up.

------
pavelkaroukin
i got my full time job when i was 26... i failed a lot as "self-employed"
before. but when i got job (i had specific reasons, not financial ones), i
really understood what it is to be free in doing your own choose and be
entrepreneur (life style, not building huge corp for selling it later). now i
am doing everything to get back to it...

do not afraid to fail early. i did it a lot - it is fine (although i never had
situation where i was not able to pay taxes or rent, but this might be luck
:)). With each fail you learn and it is better to learn it at twenties and
become successful businessman in thirties, than start learning in thirties. :)

there are few exceptions from the rule, who become successful "overnight"
(think facebook-type businesses), but most "overnight" success takes years of
work, dedication and... failures.

------
djcjr
"I have to constantly hear my father shout what an idiot I am for quitting a
high-paying job."

I think you should go somewhere else away from your father, whatever happens.
You tried something and it didn't work. There's no reverse gear on life. Your
dad reveals himself as someone who does not support you.

------
mebassett
it's a shame your family and friends aren't more supportive. from reading your
previous post, I think I would have quit too. you don't sound like an idiot,
failure, or anything of the sort. please don't think that way, and please talk
to someone supportive about the depression/suicidal feelings.

I quit a job for sillier reasons and ended up in a bad spot - no money, no
job, no food, et cetera. I was living in a foreign country for university and
wasn't able to move back in with my parents. I bummed off friends and found
various odd places to sleep for awhile. I was pretty depressed too
[understatement]. I was/am about the same age as you. It sucked for quite a
few months. but it got better. short term (months long) "failures" are
necessary. hang in there.

------
paolomaffei
Remember that you connect the dots in retrospect, you can't do it now

[1] I think you know what speech I am refering to.

------
cmfoster
This is from someone that used to be in a similar position until recently.

First, as everyone else suggested (I never did but...) talk to someone about
your depression, suicidal thoughts isn't something you should keep to yourself
and you should find someone close to you that you can share your feeling with
right away.

Back when I was 18 just out of high school I got a job at a mortgage company
as a loan officer, I made tons of money in the range of 15-20k/month on
average which was normal for my office and location. I purchased a 450k home
through financing when I turned 20, had two high end cars and a third (money
pit) project car that I barely had time to work on.

Long story short, I was your age (20) at the time and I did what most 20yr
olds do, bought whatever I wanted no matter the price. I thought life like
this would last forever, with no care for the term "housing bubble", I didn't
care to know what the worst of it would mean.

When 2007 came around and I saw lenders severely restrict guidelines and homes
start appraising at an incredibly devalued price from what it once was, that
was when I started to panic. Eventually I had to short sell my home, turn one
of my cars in because I owed more then the value of it and go from 15-20k to
basically nothing.

So I ended up moving to Miami beach for two years staying with a relative, and
spent all of my money pretending to still be/do what I once was/could until i
ran completely out of money. Then I sat in depression for the rest of the two
years I was there. Things really got bad after my second car got repossessed.

Anyway, the story is of a person (me) falling from high up all the way to rock
bottom which it sounds like is where you are. After the two year period of
depression I got a second chance through moving back to Illinois and staying
with my parents, going back to college and programming again. Now I have three
partners working on a new product, face time with VC's that have shown
interest when its completed, introduced to business owners (through friends)
that have agreed to test our product. Things are going great.

There is one thing that happened to me which changed my outlook on life when
things weren't going so well(im not saying you should go and do this by any
means at the moment), I had a son and so far he has been my inspiration in
pulling through.

Right now I am 25, my plan that I set for myself when I was 16 was to have
over $1 million by the time I was 25, you can laugh at that if you want but i
was serious and it was definitely possible at the rate that I made money as a
Loan Officer. You still have a shot at achieving either the goal of stability
or creating your own job by the time you are 25. Figure out which route you
want and make a plan to get there, i.e. "Get a GED. 4 months, goto community
college/university for CS or whatever 2-4 years." By that time you should have
a side job and a nearly completed BS in CS.

You have time, you have talent. Make a goal, define a path and start going
down it. The longer you wait and sulk in your depression the more depressed
you will get being 21,22,23,24,25yrs old and in the same situation you are
currently in. Don't do that.

You'll never find out what you have to look forward to if you never attempt to
look forward, so dont look back, move forward.

------
hagyma
one thing i noticed over the years... when i was "down" or my business wasn't
going really well (being a freelancer at some point in time) my actual product
wasn't that good.

i was basically not delivering quality, so my customers weren't happy and i
had to realize that i should call in someone else to help finish assignments.
i had to change my position and my title.

when you work as an employee, you may just be fine for that job, being a
freelancer or a company owner, you have to produce exceptional quality, and
you may still be in trouble collecting payments in time...

so it is very important to know yourself and your skills before making a
decision.

try figure out what you're good at, and until you do, you can still help out
here or there for some coins or food.

let me know if you need ideas...

------
spacehaven
> I'm 20

Ok that changes the context of what you said. I thought you were like 30 or
God-forbid 40.

You know all that bullshit about "you can't succeed if you don't take risks?"
It's true. It's SO true. The world needs people like you, and me - I am your
40 year old rocky-road-to-success-story.

------
radicalbyte
Dude, you're 20. You're a kid. You've got your whole life ahead of you. Just
get an office job.

When I was your age, I was 23 stone, had never kissed a girl, was working as
office monkey and was depressed. I was in your position (including thoughts
about ending it). I was scared of Math. I spoke only one language. My
confidence was shattered through 9 years of being bullied.

Now I'm 31. I'm 10 stone lighter. I'm married to the girl I met when I was 21.
I've leant to love Math. In addition to English, I speak fluent Dutch. Heck, I
live in a different country (UK to Netherlands). In a couple of weeks I'll be
starting at a new, better job. That's going from a previous good job :)

Freelancing at your age is a joke. You'll just be taken advantage of. You
don't have the experience to be able to demand a decent rate. You'll be better
off investing in your education than working for crap freelancer rates.

Focus on education, education, education. It looks like you're interested in
UI/UX. Focus your education to improving it. Miss some Math? Grab the Dummies
books. Read them. Follow the MIT lectures. Then put the knowledge to use in a
personal project. Write a flash Thrust clone. Or Mario clone. Write a charting
library.

Don't try and go straight into IT. You don't have the experience. Get that
experience via the side routes. Start as office monkey. Then help colleagues
with Excel. Build them a database. Grow.

Don't get hung up on formal education. In IT it's not that important. The
field moves much faster than other professions - continuous learning is more
important than having done a specific degree.

Take my example. I know more, and am better at my craft than my university-
educated coworkers. Why? Because I've worked harder than them. I've been
coding for a similar amount of time, despite being 15 years younger (started
at 11). I read like crazy. I've taught myself a lot (with a bit of help from
MIT's open access scheme). I'm a perfectionist, and that drives me to improve.
Constantly. And ultimately I love my field. I love learning.

My highly educated coworkers are lazy. They use their degrees as an excuse not
to invest in their skills. Sure, they spent three years studying computer
science in the 80s. But a lot has changed since then. They know little to
nothing about software engineering. They never think about how to improve
themselves. They hide behind a Phd or MSc.

If you need to talk to someone with similar experiences who can give you tips,
then drop me a line.

------
cerebrum
What do you work with, software?

I work with software and I did quit and it was great. I just completed my
first freelance project and it worked great. I'm not looking back yet.
Although I notice it is hard to stay disciplined, but I'm working on it.

------
flexiverse
Starting a business sorts the men with big balls from the boys and fakers. you
lost. get over it and get a job. point is you tried and didn't have enough big
balls to make it work. at least you now know what it really takes.

------
vcubed
If Colonel Sanders can do it at 65, you have nothing to worry about. At 20,
you're way to you to even entertain ideas of defeat. IMHO anyway...Don't
listen to your friends or father...Take life by the balls and kick ass...

------
Hitchhiker
" Pain is weakness leaving the body " - The Marines

" The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is
marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes
short again and again, because there is no effort without error and
shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great
enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at
the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the
worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place
shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor
defeat." - <http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/trsorbonnespeech.html>

You are stronger than you think.

------
kolinko
Dude, it will take you a year to three years before you get things back in
order. Half a year is not nearly enough time.

I've been twenty too, some time ago. Don't worry, you've got a lot of life
ahead of you. You can do anything.

------
nickthedart
You say it hasn't worked out .... well, it just hasn't worked out YET. In a
few weeks time ski resorts will be hiring for the winter. How about doing that
for a few months? You might be very glad you did. :)

------
raheemm
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. Im considering doing the same
and this makes me want to prepare even more before making the leap. And hang
in there and I hope things work out.

------
badclient
Since the time you made this post, more than one people near you got hired for
a minimum wage job.

More importantly, in the next few hours, some more people are going to be
hired. One of them can be you.

------
dvee81
Bro you're a go getter and that's what matters. I've been where you've been
already. I pulled myself back together and worked my way up to success. Hang
in there and keep fighting!!!

------
davidcollantes
\- Suicide? No. Really, no. Seek professional help if thought recurs. \- What
are your skills? \- <http://olekbeluga.com>, is it yours?

------
divvlr
Every great and every great person has had moments where there seemed to be no
looking up. But, have faith and keep your head up bc time heals all things. I
routing for you!!

------
thanhmam
Great Sharing! After I first read this post, I shared to my friends. One of
them, everytime he felt like quitting his job, he just open and read this post
some times.

------
nadam
"What doesn't make it any easier is that I'm 20"

I guess you don't have depts and children who depend on you yet. And that's
the thing which makes your situation easier.

------
aivarannamaa
"Keep looking, don't settle" <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXnChrXCsyM>

------
ivan_carrillo
Did you try Elance, Odesk or 99Designs. You can pretty much get all the work
you need from there and yes, Coder/Designers are in high demand.

------
herval
Granted, you sounded somewhat depressed on the aforementioned post... You
should probably look for some professional help on that matter.

------
kingsidharth
It's stupid to stay in job when it's coming in way of something better.

Leaving job because you read, "Leaving my job was best thing" is rat-race-y.

------
InclinedPlane
In the last 3 years I have quit 2 high paying tech jobs. I'll admit that I did
so rather rashly in both cases and have been very, very remiss in failing to
develop my own freelancing career. Also, I've had some rather harrowing
financial problems recently due to taking quite a lot longer to find new
employment than I thought it would (though now I'm back on my feet and doing
ok).

Despite all that I still believe quitting was the right thing to do. Those
jobs were not right for me and were driving me towards burn out. The upside of
keeping either of those jobs for longer would have been literally tens of
thousands of dollars more in my pocket and a lot less financial stress. But it
almost assuredly would have gutted me on the inside. And the downside of that
would probably end up being the destruction of my ability to operate as a
knowledge worker at the level I'm capable of which easily translates to
millions of dollars of lost revenue over the next few decades. So on balance I
think I made the vastly better choice.

As far as your condition, it's not so terribly bad. You're young, you have low
expenses (living at home). You seemingly have a lot more skill and talent than
most folks your age. So you've hit a rough patch and maybe your resume is
underwhelming and you don't have any good connections and you can't find the
work you want. So what? Swallow your pride and go find any job that you can
get. Washing dishes. Working retail. Manning the fry-o-later. Income is
income, and being able to know that you are capable of supporting yourself no
matter what can actually be a huge boost to your own self-image.

When I was in my late 20s and found myself out of work (during the dark days
of the first dot-com bust) with a shitty resume and no connections I ended up
working as an overnight stocker at a grocery store (I ended up losing 15 lbs
in 3 weeks just due to the intensity of the manual labor at that job) for a
while and then doing data entry for nearly 2 years after that. Quite quickly I
was able to get to a state where I could live alone, pay all my bills, and had
money in my pocket to spare. It wasn't easy but it was very rewarding. And
eventually I got to a state where I could start looking at moving back into
technology, each job I got increased my skillset and improved my resume.

I know a lot of people who make a decent living in tech without a degree, at
every level (from IT and tech support all the way up to senior developers).
Even so, you've got plenty of time to acquire one should you deem it
important. You've got the whole world and your whole life ahead of you, you're
not nearly as behind in the game as you think. All you need to do is apply
yourself enough, get over the fantasy that the world will deliver your dream
job to you on a silver platter at age 20, build up your skills and your
connections bit by bit, and start making solid steps towards your goals.

------
davedx
You're not alone! I went through the same thing earlier this year. Luckily I
managed to find a full-time job fairly easily.

You are not alone.

------
geekytenny
This is why love HN.... it is such a wonderful community.

Hang in there Bro...there are many like you and who have been like you out
there!!

------
mi_mee
You are still so young and have so much time.

------
relaxman
Learn and get back up. Start again, do it better next time. See this when
feeling down: getmotivationnow.blogspot.com

------
ykamakazi
Simple question, Why not get another job ?

------
Too
> What doesn't make it any easier is that I'm 20, I have no college diploma

Most people in my college class joined at age 20...

------
c3vin
hey, at least you're only 20! shit son, you're life hasn't even started yet.
man the fuck up and get shit done.

------
chubs
You're under pressure. Stay there - it's right where you're meant to be. This
pressure will either crush you, or change your character from coal into
diamond.

Remember, even if your friends are dicks and your dad is abusive, you've got
dozens of friends on HN who believe in you :)

Print the responses on this thread, and read them out to yourself every
morning before and after you go for a jog. The perspective that will provide
you will help.

------
cfguy
i just read the article that you linked to. personally you did the right thing
by quitting. not for nothing, but you were a slave.

ya things haven't worked out so far, but so what, at least you're not putting
in 60 hours a week. what good is money if you don't have the time to spend it.
what good is life if all you do is work and never get to enjoy it.

from what i can get, you were a flash/C++ programmer at your previous job.

right now you're trying to find a job. piece of advice, you're really not
going to find one (or at least a good one) looking in the paper and/or on job
sites... you need to network.

my advice, join a user group for flash, there are many:

<http://groups.adobe.com/>

start hanging out in the flash message google groups and helping others:

[http://groups.google.com/groups/search?hl=en&q=adobe+fla...](http://groups.google.com/groups/search?hl=en&q=adobe+flash&qt_s=Search+Groups)

get on github and start doing some open source flash stuff and participating
in the community:

<https://github.com/languages/ActionScript>

what i'm trying to tell you is this: a lot of programmers that i know live in
a bubble and all they do is program and keep to themselves. the secret in life
in getting ahead, being happy and sharpening your skills is to network with
others. ever heard the expression, "it's who you know", well it's true.

right now you're so depressed that you forgot this basic life lesson. you need
to get out if the rut and jump in head first back into life. you have nothing
to lose and everything to gain. not only will networking help with you
professional life, it will also help you in your personally life.

i'll tell you this. one of my best friends was in the same situation that
you're in, having a hard time finding a job. we both work in an obscure
language that most people would laugh at (ColdFusion). for a while now i've
been telling him to start doing exactly what i'm telling you do. since taking
my advice and finally getting involved he's finally finding quite a bit of
free lance work and even has found and applied to a permanent ColdFusion
position. opportunities are out there my friend, there not going to present
themselves unless you go looking for them.

TLDR: start networking in the flash/c++ communities.

------
fady
if there is anything you can take from steve jobs dealth, is that life is way
to short to care about small things. follow your heart and keep your head up.
they're a lot of people who don't have roofs over their head or food to eat,
or water to drink. you will bounce back smile man :)

------
damoncali
Sometimes it doesn't work. That's normal. Pick yourself up and go find a job
until you can try again.

------
easilydoable
Do this to make money while you figure something else out. The work is labor
intensive and may require a truck so it's not for everyone but it may be for
you.

If you've ever gotten new tires for your car, you know that the auto shop
charges $3 to $4 to dispose each of your old tires. The auto shop charges you
because it usually costs them the same amount to get the tires disposed.

The large auto shops usually have agreements with a tire recycling company for
picking up the scrap tires on a scheduled basis. The small auto shops have to
either take the tires to the recycling facility themselves or store them at
their shop until they've gathered enough quantity to meet the pickup
requirements of the tire hauling company.

The problem for the large and small auto shops is that most states have very
strict rules on storing the tires. For example, the tires cannot be stored out
in the open where rain can fall on them and possibly create a breeding ground
for mosquitos. So naturally, to avoid hefty fines, the auto shops want to rid
themselves of the scrap tires as soon as possible. Having a reliable 'company'
come pick up the tires within a couple of hours of making a phone call would
solve the problem, however, as most auto shops will tell you, finding reliable
tire haulers is not easy.

That's where you come in. If you have access to a truck that can hold 100
scrap tires, you can make at least $200 per trip to the recycling facility.
Most auto shops will be happy to pay you at least $3 per scrap tire. Many
recycling facilities will charge you $1 to take each tire off your hands. This
means you get $2 for each tire and for 100 tires, you get $200.

If you don't have a truck but do have a large enough place where you can store
up to 100 tires and keep them dry, you can have the recycling company come
pick them up.

In order for this business to be feasible, you need to have enough small auto
shops in your area to regularly supply you with the tires or you'll need one
large auto shop that is not satisfied with their current tire hauler. In
either case, you'll need to be a registered business in order for the auto
shops to legally supply you with the tires (otherwise any Joe can pickup the
tires, collect the money and dump the tires somewhere).

You also need to have a tire recycling facility close by to keep your costs
contained. Here's a list of scrap tire facilities in the Tri-state area along
with the amount they charge to come pickup the tires from you. If you deliver
the tires to them, the prices will be slightly lower.

<http://www.state.nj.us/dep/dshw/recycling/stftf.htm>

good luck -Samir

------
ck2
_no high school diploma_

You might be able get some financial help to get a GED ?

When the job market sucks, stick to school.

------
exit
it surprises me that you are 20 years old. from your previous post i thought
you were somewhat older.

what does your resume besides the company you quit look like?

do you have a degree? are you looking for jobs but having a hard time getting
interview invitations?

------
saluki
Quitting your job sounds like it was a good move, if you hate what you are
doing everyday it's tough to enjoy life.

In the short term it may make things difficult financially.

Get excited about something, what are you passionate about that can pay the
bills in the future?

A college degree is good, I would recommend getting some type of technical
degree, computer science. Calculus is tough, a lot of people struggle through
it, don't get discouraged.

Art appreciation is great, Art as a career or even as a degree not recommended
(if you enjoy programming/solving problems).

That said a degree isn't 100% necessary, just nice to have.

If you are creative and enjoy programming and web design. Do not give up on
web development/freelancing.

There is so much opportunity in this area.

Stage 1:

Stay at your parents as long as you can short term, thank them for letting
your stay, help out around the house.

Find a support network and take care of yourself (Find people who put you in a
positive mind set and spend time with them, spend time outdoors, exercise, eat
right)

Find a Job any Job (Try to find something that interests you and relates to
technology: Computer Repair Store, Apple Store maybe even Barnes and Noble).

Keep Freelancing (Take on every project you can find, approach local
businesses and restaurants about creating or updating their websites, Take on
difficult projects, that test and improve your skills)

Keep Learning (PHP/mySQL, jQuery, Create a Web App, Create an iOS app, HTML5,
CSS3, Ruby on Rails)

Learn more about startups and businesses in general (Listen to David
Heinemeier Hansson's startup school talk
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CDXJ6bMkMY>. Start listening to the
interviews at <http://mixergy.com.>)

Meet Like Minded People (Ditch your friends that aren't supportive, make new
friends)

Talk more with your family (Build a better relationship with your parents
explain how bad your previous job was, admit that maybe you should have stuck
it out, tell them about your new plan, keep them updated)

Money (Use credit sparingly, do not buy things on credit cards unless you can
pay off the balance monthly, check out Rich Dad Poor Dad, just take in the
overall message don't follow all his advice to the letter and Dave Ramsey's
Total Money Makeover to build good money management habits now while you're
young.)

Stage 2:

I would push you to plan on (or at least think about) having your own business
(eventually).

Freelancing or working for a company is only going to take you so far. Salary
isn't everything but when you have a wife and 2 kids, mortgage, college
tuition, etc money won't go as far as you think.

Working for someone else your salary will hit a ceiling, same with
freelancing/consulting you only have so many hours to sell and you'll
constantly be chasing new projects.

You currently have a job, consulting, and are learning all you can about web
development.

Let's add one more item to the mix, your side project.

Your side project will be the start of your company.

Your goal is to create a website, web application that provides reoccurring
revenue.

SaaS (recommended) Mobile Apps Affiliate Site Content Site with Ads

Since you are young you can explore all these areas, figure out where your
passion is and go from there.

If everything is going ok living at your parents use this time to build your
side project(s), along with your job and freelancing/consulting.

If you feel like you need to get your own place then you're going to have to
start looking for a better day job.

Basically balance your job, consulting and keep your side project(s) moving
forward.

Stage 3:

You are young so you have a lot of time to get a business off the ground if
that's the direction you are headed.

There are lots of ways to make money building online businesses.

Business is not easy, you will have failures and successes, stay positive.

Save money to give yourself runway when you decide to quit your day job and
depend on your side projects that have turned into your primary business(s).

Keep an open mind, be on the look out for new business/website ideas, keep
learning, keep up your support network.

If you aren't passionate about consulting or running your own business, pick a
career you like and will enjoy day to day, then look at your starting salary
and long term salary ceiling and setup your lifestyle below those levels,
including money for savings, travel, kids, college.

Enjoy the ride.

~~~
karolist
This is wonderfully packed piece of advice, I'm sure it will be useful to
many.

------
divvlr
Here are quotes that I refer to when I'm feeling down

"There will always be obstacles in life but, they are only stepping stones to
a great future" -me

" The Man who thinks He can! If you think you are beaten, you are: If you
think you dare not, you don't! If you'd like to win, but think you can't, It's
almost a cinch that you won't. If you think you'll lose, you're lost. For out
in the world we find. Success begins with a fellow's will; It's all in the
state of mind! If you think you're outclassed you are; you've got to think
high to rise. You've got to be sure of yourself before you can win the prize.
Life battles don't go always go to the strongest or fastest man; But sooner or
later the man who wins Is the man who thinks he can! -a poem by Wlater D.
Wintle taken from "Launching a Leadership Revolution"

"If you wait for all the lights to turn green before you set off on a cross-
country trip, you'll never leave."

"If we feel afraid, it isn't what we don't know that frightens us, it's what
we think we do know. The problem is.... our ideas about what we don't know."
-Allen G. Johnson

"Our purpose in life is to find purpose in life"

"Every man should be embarrassed to die until he accomplishes something great
in this world" -Douglas MacArthur

"Whether u think u can or u think u can't u r right" - Henry Ford

"Seek... the counsel of those who have achieved the goal for which you strive:
for in all matters, the words of the one who has prospered are far better then
the words of one who has not." -Author Stevenson Willis

"Study while others are sleeping: work while others are loafing; prepare while
others are playing; and dream while others are wishing." -Willam A. Ward

"A leader is driven to change the status quo...." -Chris Brady

"Nearly all men can handle adversity but if you really want to test a man's
character- give him power" -Abraham Lincoln

"To become a leader worth following you must give time and attention to the
inner man. To leave a legacy that goes beyond accomplishment alone, a leader
must devote himself to matters of he heart." Andy Stanley

"What counts is not the number of hours you put in, but how much you put in
the hours." -"Anonymous

"We don't control where we start our journeys, but we do control what we do
once we've started"

"Success is always located on the other side of inconvenience"

"Remember, no one one ever does anything worthwhile for which they are not
criticized."

"Great leaders learn to find defeat in every victory, and victory in every
defeat." (There's always room for improvement, always!)

------
negamax
"This too shall pass"

------
lsc
oh man. yeah. Right in the depth of the dot-com bust, I was in a real bad
place. Deep, deep layoffs, then many people quit. So yeah, it was really
stressful, and my supervisor was, uh, kinda crazy, which was exacerbated by
the stress of running a company on 1/10th the usual staff. I was just a kid
and I couldn't take it. I quit.

I was so messed up that I thought I didn't want to work in IT any more. I
tried to get jobs in other fields; retail, even. It's harder than it sounds.
Eventually my money and my credit ran out.

I got pretty lucky; I come from an I.T. family and my dad (a mid level IT
manager at the university) was able to get me an interview with a guy who used
to be one of his student interns who now had a fairly successful company, so I
ended up working through the dot-com dump in my chosen field.

So yeah. some advice:

1\. use all your contacts to their fullest extent.

Seriously, I know it feels weird to do it, but ask your family and all your
friends if they know people who have the ability to hire someone with your
skillset. probably 80% of the full time jobs I've gotten (oddly, only maybe
10% of the contract gigs I've gotten) came through knowing someone.

2\. if you want, sure, apply to lower-skilled jobs. But don't stop applying to
jobs in your field.

Unemployment in the unskilled sectors, at least in America, is ridiculously
high. This is much less true of the more skilled sectors. Also, working a
unskilled job, while it can get you out of the parent's house, still counts as
unemployment as far as getting your next skilled job, which brings me to 3,
which may be my most important point:

3\. build a resume excuse for the unemployment.

It's extremely difficult to get a skilled job after a long period of
unexplained unemployment. Most of the time, resumes from people who are not
currently working are simply round filed. Picking good people is /hard/ and
picking bad people is /expensive/ so hr people tend to behave a bit like sheep
and mutual fund managers; if nobody else wants you, the reasoning goes, there
is probably something wrong with you.

This is where your side business comes in.

You now work full-time for your side business. Consulting, web design, what
have you. Doesn't matter if you actually pay the bills working at the piggly
wiggly, as far as your resume and your on-line identity is concerned, you are
running your own company.

This works best if you actually do work on your personal company. I would
advise giving your services away for free, but from experience, it's actually
often easier to sell your services than to give them away (don't be ashamed to
accept below market pay if you can't get market pay. Of course, try to get
market pay, but there is a 'shadow IT' industry that pays little more than
retail... don't be ashamed to work there if you need to; it might not pay much
but it does count as IT on the resume.)

------
swah
Now I feel bad for living with my parents at 27.

------
tankenmate
You are not a failure until you give up.

------
easilydoable
Do this to make money while you figure something else out. The work is labor
intensive and may require a truck so it's not for everyone but it may be for
you.

If you've ever gotten new tires for your car, you know that the auto shop
charges $3 to $4 to dispose each of your old tires. The auto shop charges you
because it usually costs them the same amount to get the tires disposed.

The large auto shops usually have agreements with a tire recycling company for
picking up the scrap tires on a scheduled basis. The small auto shops have to
either take the tires to the recycling facility themselves or store them at
their shop until they've gathered enough quantity to meet the pickup
requirements of the tire hauling company.

The problem for the large and small auto shops is that most states have very
strict rules on storing the tires. For example, the tires cannot be stored out
in the open where rain can fall on them and possibly create a breeding ground
for mosquitos. So naturally, to avoid hefty fines, the auto shops want to rid
themselves of the scrap tires as soon as possible. Having a reliable 'company'
come pick up the tires within a couple of hours of making a phone call would
solve the problem, however, as most auto shops will tell you, finding reliable
tire haulers is not easy.

That's where you come in. If you have access to a truck that can hold 100
scrap tires, you can make at least $200 per trip to the recycling facility.
Most auto shops will be happy to pay you at least $3 per scrap tire. Many
recycling facilities will charge you $1 to take each tire off your hands. This
means you get $2 for each tire and for 100 tires, you get $200.

If you don't have a truck but do have a large enough place where you can store
up to 100 tires and keep them dry, you can have the recycling company come
pick them up.

In order for this business to be feasible, you need to have enough small auto
shops in your area to regularly supply you with the tires or you'll need one
large auto shop that is not satisfied with their current tire hauler. In
either case, you'll need to be a registered business in order for the auto
shops to legally supply you with the tires (otherwise any Joe can pickup the
tires, collect the money and dump the tires somewhere).

You also need to have a tire recycling facility close by to keep your costs
contained. Here's a list of scrap tire facilities in the Tri-state area along
with the amount they charge to come pickup the tires from you. If you deliver
the tires to them, the prices will be slightly lower.

<http://www.state.nj.us/dep/dshw/recycling/stftf.htm>

good luck -Samir

------
yonasb
Moral of the story: don't come to HN for advice on life decisions.

------
victim
Hi, Let me be a bit blunt and tell you a few things.

1\. You had parents to move back with to cater for your Lodging and Boarding
2\. I dunno what you are doing as your career after quitting your job 3\. You
are in America, where getting gigs is no biggie 4\. You _ARE_ an idiot for
being depressed and contemplating suicide.

I had to make a similar decision myself, I am in a remote town, in a country
where getting gigs is really difficult, I have mortgages to pay and lifestyle
to manage (my lifestyle was quite lavish since I had a _high_ paying job) I do
not have my parents here with me to move back into, though a lot of people I
know have suggested that I do and move back to a different country where
living is cheaper. To add to that, I have had to take medications etc for my
stress levels and am still consulting a couple of doctors. However, what
surprises me is WHY _SUICIDE_ , I mean if that is what I wanted, then my High
Paying job was doing a good job of taking my life away.

If your friends tell you what an idiot you are, remember they are _NOT_ really
your friends, they want to feel better by comparing themselves to you and
probably were jealous of your pay.

I have managed over a year and a half on my own, believe me this is not
easy... However, now things have started to pick up, I am being approached by
people and they want me to provide my services to them (mainly development)

I used the time that I had to learn, skill and re-skill myself, I was used to
being a Manager, getting people to do things, i did mainly all the high level
stuff, but now I am back to being a code monkey, nothing wrong with it, other
than the fact that I cannot focus on that, but since my skills are good, I can
manage to catch up in terms of deadlines, etc

The other piece of information that you have not posted is how old are you?
That will also determine, what you call a HIGH Paying job. Let me say that I
have given up a 100K type job and gone through hell, and hope that the journey
is nearly over.

For anyone that is contemplating, you need to know a few things,

1\. Do not quit your job on the pretext that you _might_ just make it lucky
2\. Have a plan, I did not have the luxury of a plan, had to do it for health
reasons and other personal reasons. 3\. Build contacts, spread the word about
your work, it will take a year or two before you get to see results, the
Economy is _slow_ it is not just you or your luck 4\. At every stage project
professionalism, meet people and discuss your services as if you are a
flourishing business, this will instill confidence in you and also keep your
mind off _depression_ and feelings of being a loser. After all the _ONLY_
person that can really call you a loser is _YOU_ what any body else says does
not matter...

If it helps, take up something in the meanwhile that could be anything that
gets you going, I felt that I needed to _not_ take up such temp employment and
went on hard with self development instead.

Hope you can take something from this and work towards something positive and
make it...

I have been a victim of office politics and went through the same...

Tim, Vic

------
j45
I started freelancing on my own when I was 19. I'm now in my early 30's.

Working on my own started out as a total mess. Been broke, more than broke.
Lost friends, relationships. Stuck with it because I too made some decisions
that I couldn't back out of and it was my only way out, so I had to make it
work.

My life is now not a mess. It gets better every day. Now, I have friends
working for me. I have 15+ years of business experience before I'm 35. I
worked my ass off in my 20's to get 20 years of experience in 10. You could
say I had my quarter life crisis early.

I'm going to braindump mind can't easily convince you into thinking it's
impossible, or worse, you think that there's some kind of short coming in you.

It's hard to find anyone to relate to when you're young and in business. It's
a luxury to feel understood sometimes.

Things to consider:

0) UNTIL YOU ARE HARDER, LIFE CAN BE GENERALLY HARD. HARDEN YOURSELF LIKE
CODE.

Whether you work a job and get stuck in the politics trying to move up, or
business, it's hard. Sorry. If you accept it, it just becomes easier because
you can get over it and get to it. No one's going to do your shit for you in a
job, or your business. No one's going to be more motivated in your business
than you. You are the lynchpin, so it's about developing yourself to be the
best you can be, and improving/ getting people to help you with your
weaknesses.

1) YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

Your problems in business or freelancing aren't new, or special. Recognize
that and accept it, it will make you so happy. You can learn your way out of
them. Out read your problems.

They don't teach running a business in school. We're taught to work in other
people's businesses, not have the careers or lives of our dreams often enough.
My business self-education is from a lot of books and I've had to read more
out of school than I did _in_ school. So, if you don't know how to do it, go
to a book store or library. I read 5 times as many books after school than
when I was ever in it. I had tech talent, not business talent.

2) KNOW WHERE YOU'RE AT AND WHERE YOU'RE HEADED.

Looking back the most important thing that dragged out 2-3 years of learning
into 10 was not knowing what stage I was in. There are different things that
you need to learn and go through at each stage.

I started as a freelancer, then became a contractor (people tell me what they
need), then became a consultant (I tell customers what they need and do it)
and now finally into web based products, because it's what I tried to do 10
years ago (the first time the internet became cool) and it failed.

Each of those stages require different skills and you get business in
different ways. Freelancing is a bitch. You constantly have to get new and
more work. Contracting can be nicer because you get to sometimes work on
ongoing projects, say, building software that runs a company. Consulting is
even nicer because you can have a say in how to help build the software that
builds a company. If you get into the business of helping businesses solve
their problems, you get a ton of experience in a lot of different industries
solving the same problems, guess what you end up with... PRODUCT IDEAS
BUSINESSES WILL PAY FOR.

3) SEEK AND SECURE MORE STABLE SOURCES OF INCOME.

Get through freelancing as quickly as you can into contracting and consulting.

4) DISCIPLINE IS SUCCESS AND FREEDOM.

When you look at anyone who's successful, be it academic, professional,
physically, financially, its because they've worked at becoming disciplined to
always be improving and always learning to do the best things before they're
needed.

Building discipline, commitment is the single most important thing we can
learn and always work on. Being able to find what we need to do, learn how,
then do it is what fixes our problems.

5) YOUR BELIEF IN YOURSELF HAS TO BE GREATER THAN OTHERS BELIEF IN YOU.

Like every day you shower so your body doesn't stink, brush your teeth so your
breath doesn't stink, you have to wash any crap off your mind and feelings
every day. Motivation isn't one time, for life to me. Motivation is like
taking a bath every day. If I don't do it, My thoughts and feelings smell
worse than my body does and I'm the only one who can smell them the most.

I don't care if you meditate, pray, yoga, breathe deeply, do tai chi, work
out, but whatever clears your thoughts and feelings insides as well as your
outside is something you need to remember who you are every day and why you're
doing it.

6) THERES NO ONE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR LEARNING BUT YOU.

You decide if you take the positive from everything, or the negative. It's
hard to do when the bank balance is low, all the time. Been there, did it for
several years. You learn to tune it out and get shit done anyways. That's what
I learnt, no matter what situation I'm in, I have to do what's needed for it
to be better in the next 30-60 days.

7) SELF DEVELOPMENT IS YOUR SALVATION.

Don't think for a second you're ever done learning. Whether you did or didn't
go to school, with, or without a degree, if you as a person stop learning,
you're dead and losing value every day. Too many people think their degree
will make something of them, when in fact, it's more about what they make of
their degree. When your education is self-directed you have to get better at
finding the right things to learn and teaching yourself. There always has to
be time in your life to learn.

In tech if you're not reasonably up to date with what's going on you're a
dinosaur. Examine your self-development.

You have to find peace in knowing you won't ever know anything and believing
in your ability to get to the bottom of things and do what's needed.

9) YOUR EXPERIENCE IS PROOF WHY VC'S DONT WORK WELL FOR YOUR FIRST GIG.

You need to learn how to make, keep money in a business. Next to your talent,
there's no other more important skill. Knowing how to create value and having
people pay you is something you learn one project, one customer at a time.
It's doable. I live in a city of 1 million people.

10) LONG TERM CUSTOMERS ARE POSSIBLE FOR YOU.

I generally have had most of my customers now for 4 years. Some as high as 12.

Many of my clients are now online and I've never met them. But we talk on the
phone and screen share has taught me how to get anything done, anytime,
anywhere. Because I needed to learn how to make money when any opportunity
came up until I could pick.

11) JOB SECURITY IS A JOKE.

There is less job security in jobs than freelancing imho. All freelancing does
is expose how quickly any job could really end. Your job is to learn how to
create security for yourself, the only real security there is.

People have their own insecurities and worries. As a parent, a big worry is
seeing you become self-dependant so they can rest easy that their child is now
an adult. Generationally each sees a different way to do it. Create that job
security.

12) IGNORE THE ZEROES, FORGET THE NEGATIVES.

It's always good to know who your friends are. Some friends of mine in Uni
didn't understand what I was doing and cut back dealing with me. They went out
into the working world to learn what I already knew, that I'd hit this moment
of "that's it?" in a unfulfilling job with poor prospect of moving into better
work.

It took well into my late 20's before my friends started paying attention to
me and saying hey, why's he been working (ha) on his own so long, maybe that's
not bad after all. Now, I have friends working for me. I have 15+ years of
business experience before I'm 35.

I hope at least this has given you some food for thought in actions you could
take in addition to the support you've received here. Your heart is your
compass, you have to learn to read and chase after it for your happiness using
the skills of your mind. Always be learning, and stay hungry and foolish*
enough to keep moving forward while you're at it.

Keep moving, create, create, create.

------
richlist
Having gone through financial trouble after quitting a job to do a start-up
incl. living with parents etc. here's my advice:

1\. You can have two paths in life as it currently stands; one doing C++ and
one not doing C++.

The C++ route will probably pay well but won't make you happy, but the right
kind of job doing C++ might be something you can bear. Also become more social
and better at it; Michael Feather's book is your friend, start to hang out on
stackoverflow etc. Perhaps go and work in one of the cooler places to work
like media etc. so the feel of the place makes you feel differently. iPhone
development?

The not doing C++ route, without any kind of education diplomas in this
current financial climate will probably not pay well. If you're not someone
who feels they need a lot of money then you're likely to be happier, but have
fewer choices.

2\. If you chose the latter of those then sorry to say this but like a lot of
people under the age of say 60 you probably need some set your expectations
lower (I'm 36 and have done and I'm happier). As it currently stands I'd say
earning enough for a house, a cheap Japanese car and 1-2 holidays a year is
reasonable. Mansions, Ferrari's and supermodels are not.

3\. Now go and do research on jobs that you think would keep your interest on
a day to day basis potentially for the rest of your working life. Those people
who change careers later in life fall into two camps; lucky genius b!stards,
and those who earn less than people who are 15-20 years their junior. You
probably wouldn't be one of the lucky genius b!stards, so put some real effort
into it; go onto forums etc. and ask people about how their jobs are etc.

4\. I'm guessing you're from the US, so your education opportunities are
somewhat limited by a lack of funds? If so, go abroad. There are plenty of
good universities from around the world that will give you pretty much all of
the education you would get in the states (some better, some worse) at far
lower cost. Google is your friend.

Although what you're experiencing now is very distressing, it actually won't
last forever, and at 20 you're far from being unemployable. When you're in
your 40's and you do this its a different world for sure, so better to take
the risk now, reboot and set yourself on the right path for the rest of your
life.

So you could possibly do another crappy job for 6 months, save as much as you
can and then go to university in a foreign country, and then graduate in
whatever field you want and get a job in 3-4 years when there's no recession.

 _OR_

You could look for the more bearable of the crappy C++ roles and go with those
knowing that what this buys you is time to replan, refocus, recover, have fun
again, not feel responsible, and know that its not forever because you're
putting things in motion to be a better candidate for the next better role.

PS. Start working out too; preferably weights.

------
arthole
it's okay that it's painful. pain means you need to be doing things
differently. That is why you feel pain.

don't attach to it. you don't have to "admit" failure. Life is not a test.

There may be someone in need of your tech skills that you don't even know, and
you just missed making that random contact at the coffee shop you always go
too because she was stuck in traffic that day.

your freelancing thing barely works for two reasons: not enough paying
clients, or clients that never pay. so go get new/more (paying) clients!
advertise! be creative! spread your wings! get out of house and hustle, or
write emails to prospective clients. work for free (temporarily)to get in the
door if you have to!

change how you do things so it doesn't hurt anymore. don't take the fact that
it hurts personally, take it as a clue.

when I contemplated suicide at that age (and since) I always come back to a
wonderful realization. the reasons for suicide are satisfied in death... but
they are also satisfied if you give up believing in those reasons. you will
still be hungry when you have no food, but your reasons for suicide don't have
to control you...

you can live whatever silly life you like for whatever silly reasons you like.
your parents may not pay for it, but that's ok. Just another part of the post
suicide adventure!

or as steve jobs said: “Remembering that I’ll be dead soon is the most
important tool I’ve ever encountered to help me make the big choices in life.
Because almost everything — all external expectations, all pride, all fear of
embarrassment or failure — these things just fall away in the face of death,
leaving only what is truly important. Remembering that you are going to die is
the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose.
You are already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart.”

also, suicidal thoughts probably have underlying biological components.
Therefore:

eat well, not too much, mostly plants. get exercise. your body and brain are
connected and need to move around. go outside. it will make you feel better.
interact with people. we are social organisms. sleep well. the more your
learning the more sleep you will need. set learning goals. those goals are
what should be getting out of bed every day. if your vision and goals don't
get you out of bed, then change your goals.

I'm gonna make a guess that your parents want you to be happy. They also want
you to be self-reliant. But they don't see either one happening now. so try
some new things and see if either one improves.

You don't have to admit failure to try something different. Or to do something
in addition to the free-lance thing. Or you could just kill the free-lance
thing because it doesn't work.

It's difficult being a CEO. Sometimes you have to tell the new division it
isn't making any money. Maybe the CEO has to pivot the business into a new
direction. Maybe the division can hang on for 3 more months if it can meet new
sales targets. Maybe the division must be shut down. In a shutdown, a good CEO
will try and take the smart people from that division and puts them somewhere
else where they will get a better return on their investment. These decisions
are always complicated.

Your the CEO. So wear the hat and act like it.

------
lein
cheer up man.

------
iforget
So... what do you do? When you're freelancing? I'm 25-30 and did the same
thing back in January. Same deal, high school "equivalency", no college degree
(two degrees worth of units, no focus), had a job, decided to stop going.

Hit me up, auto24842127@hushmail.com Maybe we have complimentary skill sets?
Can we make this work? Or let's just bitch. Do not kill yourself.

------
nirvana
All of the following -- and the time spent writing it-- is contributed with
only one possible goal: to help you. I don't give a damn about karma, I give a
damn about you, even though I don't know you. So, don't take this as mean in
any way... I'm trying to help.

/////

I've been in a similar spot. The problem wasn't that I quit my job (in that
instance I was laid off when a startup collapsed)... it was that I quit my
life.

Whatever plans you've had for the last year, you didn't throw yourself into
them. In those four months, were you looking for another job? Were you
freelancing? Whatever your plan was for making money, if it didn't work, did
you find another? Or did you quit it? If it was marginally working, why didn't
you ramp it up more?

You had one high paying job, you can get another.

At the same time, you have to believe in yourself. The problem is, I think
maybe you think of yourself as a quitter.

You gotta recognize that last job was a bunch of assholes. A hot startup, or a
team effort where you had equity? Maybe something like those hours could make
sense. But not having equity, that's just abuse. You've got to accept the fact
that that job was worth quitting. (if you haven't already.)

Sucks being at your parents, right? I'm at my parents right now too. I
sometimes hang with them when starting a new company... but we get along well
and they're supportive. Your father is probably trying to get you motivated,
just using bad form in doing it.

He's got the right idea though. IF you're angry at him, let that motivate you.

You're 20. I'm more than twice your age. I promise you, things will be a lot
better soon.

Figure out what YOU can do, that doesn't involve anyone else. Do that. Make a
little money, but make it consistently.

Then come up with something else and expand it.

I used to buy things from Woot and then sell them on Amazon.com for a profit.
I did ok with that and started looking for other places for supply. I did this
when I was burned out on programming and wanted to make some money.

Whatever skills you've got, use them to make money. Don't worry about whether
it was a mistake or not-- that isn't known yet. You've lost a year... that
sucks. DON'T LOSE ANOTHER ONE!

Screw last year. What are you going to do this year? How are you going to make
more this month than you did last month. And the month after that? Just focus
on that.

I think thaumaturgy did a better job than me, and I agree with what he said.

One thing that's brought me a lot of comfort over the years-- I've always
known I could get a job at McDonalds. No matter what, I had that to fall back
on. IF you need to fall back on something like that, remember, there's
absolutely no shame in slinging fries. People act like there is, but those are
people who are lazy.

There's no shame in any job.

And if the job sucks, work to find a better one.

If you're off the path you need to be, work to get back on it... but if you
need to leave your parents house, sling fries. Then use that to get a slightly
better crappy job.

Work your way forward. If you're doing better right now that you would if you
were slinging fries, well, you're well ahead of the game. Just keep working on
that.

~~~
jbapple
> Whatever plans you've had for the last year, you didn't throw yourself into
> them.

How do you know?

------
georgieporgie
_I have to constantly hear my father shout what an idiot I am for quitting a
high-paying job. My friends make fun of me for making a retarded life
decision._

Either your father and your friends are complete assholes, or your depression
is causing you to interpret things in the worst possible way. Odds are that
your father and friends really love you and want you to succeed. They may not
express this well, and you're probably pulling further inward in your
depression. When the fog of depression lifts, you'll see the world and your
options much more clearly.

 _What doesn't make it any easier is that I'm 20, I have no college diploma,
no high school diploma, no idea what the fuck is going on._

Oh, dude, you're actually in a great position! You're young, and college loans
are still quite easy to come by!

Here is your plan:

1) Get some help for your depression. You don't have time for therapy right
now, just go for the drugs.

2) See what financing options are available to you. Financial aid? Loans? What
schools can you potentially get yourself into? People will tell you that a
loan for school is a mistake, but if you go into a technical, reasonably
difficult field, this is simply not true.

3) Go to school. Get your degree. You will almost certainly emerge into a
better economy, and you'll have a pretty good time doing it.

Remember, in getting through this situation, you are becoming a stronger and
more resilient person. In one year, you'll have a greater appreciation for
your life, and of what you are capable of enduring.

------
TheSOB88
Your father and your friends are jerks. A father who cares more about his
son's earning potential than his dreams is a SUPER jerk.

------
pyrotechnick
Sucks to be you.

p.s. You're terrible at writing. Please stop.

------
recoiledsnake
I didn't earn a single cent till I was 22, and that was a research
assistantship at school. I really started working outside when I was 26.

At 20, you have better things to worry about.

