
Six indicted in multimillion dollar scheme to bribe Amazon staff - ikeboy
https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/six-indicted-connection-multi-million-dollar-scheme-bribe-amazon-employees-and
======
dalbasal
Yikes. Corruption in an organization at Amazon-scale, economically, is a
totally different beast. More like corruption in a governmental organisation
than a private one.

 _" $100 million of competitive benefits to those accounts, harm to
competitors, and harm to consumers."_

At this point, there are "officials," with rubber stamps that are worth
millions to a large number of businesses. Google, and facebook too. The
difference between doing well or poorly on the ad marketplace, adwords, feeds,
results, and such can be the difference between a business worth a fortune and
one worth nothing.

It's similar in scale, incentive complexes and such to whatever public body
approves real estate development plans. Friendly decision makers are worth a
fortune. No details on who the culprits were, but it sounds like corruption
near the ground level.... $100m. Different beast.

At this point, expect less criminally blatant forms of corruption to emerge.
Hiring former facebook & adwords people as "consultants with contacts" is
already a meaningful sized thing. Sound familiar?

~~~
hamilyon2
Try not to create monopoly this large and wait for market to sort this out.
There should be like 7 amazons, 7 Facebook and such.

~~~
dalbasal
A part of the reason for the existence of these monopolies is that 1/7th of a
facebook (in terms of usage) is worth much less than 1/7th of a facebook in
terms of revenue and even less in terms of profit and market cap.

Breadth is very valuable to and ad business. Targeting makes it moreso.

~~~
grumple
1/7 of Facebook would cover the US or EU and would be very valuable.

~~~
dalbasal
Sure, those are the most valuable pieces. But all together: 7X(1/7) < 1.

This is the split (most valuable markets kept whole) that would be least
detrimental to value, but also least beneficial in monopoly busting terms.

~~~
3np
I'd argue that 7X(1/7) > 1\. Many (most?) users will be participating in more
than one of these concurrently.

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masonhensley
> In total, after their fraudulent reinstatement, the products and merchants
> earned in excess of $100 million in sales revenue.

Woah. Was not expecting it to be that big.

> More specifically, the Indictment alleges that the defendants served as
> consultants to so-called third-party (“3P”) sellers on the Amazon
> Marketplace.

Most companies have their employees sign onboarding documents or do an annual
"business conduct" policy review. Any thoughts on a better way to manage
something like this at scale? On one hand, I have a bad taste in my mouth from
past employment situations that dictate "we own every though that enters your
mind 24/7" \- but consulting regarding your current employer, yikes.

I guess ethics aren't boolean to some.

~~~
ikeboy
Don't outsource critical business logic (like whether an 8-9 figure account
should be suspended) to Indian low level contractors?

This has long been a major issue with Amazon - often the people making the
decisions as to whether a business with dozens of employees gets to keep
selling or goes bankrupt are being paid less than US minimum wage in another
country.

~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
> to Indian low level contractors

So this style of casual racism / xenophobia is ok if directed at approved
targets?

Pretty sure if it happened to be 6 African American individuals who were
indicted it would not be acceptable to say "Don't outsource your work to low-
level Black contractors".

~~~
everybodyknows
Consider that the US DOJ has no authority to investigate, arrest or prosecute
in India, India being a sovereign independent state.

Also,

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

>Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone
says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

~~~
jerzmacow
What a good rule to live ones life by!

~~~
nurgasemetey
Many examples can be hiddenly loaded, not well-constructed rule

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single_source
I work for Amazon and have had people reach out to me about doing this with a
large price tag attached to it.

~~~
koolba
How much is “large”?

~~~
single_source
Much more than I'm getting paid at Amazon.

~~~
idbehold
Over what length of time?

~~~
single_source
I didn't get into the details because I was adamantly against doing it.

~~~
TeMPOraL
What you're getting paid at Amazon has the dimension of money/time; a bribe is
presumably just money. We need to know the time period to reasonably compare
the two :). Otherwise it's like saying "the distance to city is much larger
than the speed of my car".

~~~
single_source
tbh, I've already said more than I'd like to about the matter.

~~~
randycupertino
Did you consider reporting the people who reached out to you? Is there even a
method in which to doso? Not sure if that would internal or externally.

~~~
kadoban
I work at a different large tech company and there are absolutely internal
ways to report any kind of suspicious contacts. I'd be shocked if every large
company didn't have at least some way.

~~~
dboreham
Even if there isn't a way, you just lift the phone and dial the general
counsel.

------
ikeboy
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17999282](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17999282)

Story from two years ago

------
thimkerbell
How, as an Amazon customer, do you report something that looks odd and could
be shady? (It involves the term "debit card credit voucher", if that helps
any. And do you all have your Amazon purchases show up as Seattle ATM
withdrawals?)

~~~
thimkerbell
The other thing that's funny, is that Amazon.com's "help/ customer service"
page doesn't offer a way or visible path to speak to a customer service human
anymore.

~~~
thimkerbell
And today my chromebook has suddenly lost all its history, settings, and
downloaded local files. I wonder if there was a way to have backed them up.

~~~
thimkerbell
"and local files, that I had downloaded." Unfortunately these also included
the screen captures I had made of oddlooking browser window content.

------
ForHackernews
> (a) sharing competitive intelligence about competitors’ revenues, customers,
> advertising campaigns, and suppliers; (b) using their inside access to
> Amazon’s network to suspend competitors’ 3P accounts; and (c) providing
> consultants with information about Amazon’s internal algorithms,

This is mildly amusing, because obviously Amazon does all of these things, but
it's _fine_ because they're Amazon.

[https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/23/wsj-amazon-uses-data-from-
th...](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/23/wsj-amazon-uses-data-from-third-party-
sellers-to-develop-its-own-products.html)

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/07/29/bezos-t...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/07/29/bezos-
testimony-data-antitrust/)

------
ransom1538
"conspiracy to access a protected computer without authorization, conspiracy
to commit wire fraud, and wire fraud"

Ah yes.

They are charged with "using electronic __communications or digital networks
__to obtain money based on false representation or promises. " Remember
fraudsters: If you just meet these people at a McDonalds you wont be charged
with a crime. Do not use mail or wires and watch the government squirm.

[https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-
manual...](https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-
manual-941-18-usc-1343-elements-wire-fraud)

~~~
dgacmu
For it to be a federal crime there (typically) needs to be an inter-state
aspect to it. It's typically very easy to show that the communication crossed
state lines if it was over the Internet, which removes jurisdictional
challenges.

If you defraud your local grocery store with your coordination meetings in a
local mcdonalds, it's _probably_ a state crime. ( _)

(_) (1) there are many ways a crime can slip into federal jurisdiction; (2)
IANAL, so don't take advice from me when you're about to commit fraud.

~~~
free_rms
Amazon operates in all 50 states.

For it to be a federal crime, there just needs to be federal interest. They
can make it a federal crime if they're interested.

~~~
frank2
That's not true. To pick the first example I was able to find:

In United States v. Lopez, ___ U.S.____, 115 S.Ct. 1624 (1995), the Supreme
Court invalidated, as beyond the powers of Congress under the Commerce Clause,
the Gun Free School Zone Act, which criminalized the possession of a firearm
within 1000 feet of a school.

[https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-
manual...](https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-
manual-1112-constitutionality-carjacking-statute)

~~~
free_rms
I'm not a lawyer but I'm super willing to bet that someone who embarasses both
Amazon and the FBI is gonna wind up with a federal rap and very few friends to
fight it.

------
randyrand
Whats the difference between a bribe and payment for services? legally?

For example, is an employee selling their knowledge about how a company works
a bribe? Software contractors often sell information like that. But it does
seem bribe-like.

~~~
klyrs
The difference is whose pocket the money goes into. If it goes to the
government, or the company, that the official represents, it's a fee. If the
official pockets the money, it's a bribe (or possibly fraud / embezzlement).

Good rule of thumb: always get a receipt. No receipt, it's a bribe. If you're
given a genuine-looking receipt, then you can probably get off the hook as a
victim of fraud.

~~~
mantas
Plenty of ways to pay a bribe AND get a receipt.

A popular scheme in my country:

\- politician runs, possibly through proxy, nearly defunct NGO

\- company supports NGO

\- politician votes in favor of a company

\- after politician's stint is over, he runs a series of speeches for the NGO
to cash out

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SomewhatLikely
The article says 10 employees and contractors accepted the bribes but this
seems to be focused on those paying. I hope they also go after those accepting
the bribes.

~~~
coredog64
There’s a weird dynamic in bribes. If I offer you a bribe and you don’t take
it, I can still claim that you did. Or I can muddy the waters by claiming that
you asked for it.

One idea I’ve seen is that it should be legal to accept a bribe but not offer
or solicit one. On taking the bribe, your legal protection is conditional on
handing over the bribe to the appropriate authorities. There’s still some game
theory at work, but you’ve at least given people that are susceptible to
bribes some additional power.

~~~
PopeDotNinja
My personal gut reaction is to avoid touching dirty money at all costs. Life’s
too short to try and explain that to a law enforcement professional with no
imagination.

~~~
sumedh
Or you can use the dirty money and hire high profile lawyers and just get a
slap on the wrist, pay a small fine and move on.

~~~
PopeDotNinja
In some places, they slap you on the wrist with a sword.

------
tyingq
_" According to the Indictment, since at least 2017, the defendants have used
bribery and fraud to benefit merchant accounts on the Amazon Marketplace,
resulting in more than $100 million..."_

Interesting that only the 3rd party sellers are indicted here. At least that's
how it reads.

Maybe it's more complex on the Amazon side and some second wave is coming.

------
president
I would assume this goes on A LOT. There is a lot of trust given to employees
in tech companies.

~~~
ericbarrett
Agreed. I think the people who set up these contracted “decision centers”
(things like user report reviews, fraud handling, adult content policing)
subconsciously assume the workers will have the same loyalty and comfortable
lifestyle that salaried tech employees get. Take contracted US-based call
centers: a significant fraction of their employees will be home-insecure
(staying with relatives or partners, or moving every few weeks), living out of
their car, or straight up homeless, making minimum wage with less-than-
fulltime weekly hours. A significant majority will be short-term employees who
bounce after a few months or years. Even $10k bribe—especially untaxed—could
be a year’s spare income or more. It’s a very different value proposition.

------
grumple
The most interesting part of this is that Amazon’s confidential data was
revealed. What level were these employees operating at? Or is this just
trumping up charges on support center employees?

100k is not nearly enough to bribe several tech employees. But it’s impressive
how effective bribing support can be.

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DropkickM16
Yes, as the world moves more and more toward online commerce, a statute
specifically crafted for "fraud using transmission of information over wires"
is just the modern tool we need to fight back.

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doggydogs94
Looks like they bribed the wrong people.

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ponker
Amazing. Bezos outsourcing compliance to the federal government, saving money
and getting access to harsher punishments than he can dispense himself. Genius

~~~
moltar
Hard to say if they saved money. This fraud definitely has a negative impact
on both sellers and buyers. Buyers are losing trust in Amazon due to sub
standard products. Sellers are getting fed up and quitting or moving on.

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runawaybottle
Waiting for the real indictments from 2008 fraud. Until then, whatever.

~~~
55555
Which fraud are you referring to?

