
New XPS 13 Developer Edition Lands in Europe, United States and Canada - guifortaine
https://bartongeorge.io/2016/10/04/the-new-xps-13-developer-edition-lands-in-europe-and-united-states/
======
deng
A word of warning: German magazine c't tests this laptop in its newest issue,
using the pre-installed Ubuntu but also with Fedora 25 Workstation Edition
(also with a Linux 4.9 development kernel), as well as Windows 10. The results
regarding Linux compatibility are pretty bad:

\- The battery lasts for 13h under Linux, which is not too shabby. However, it
lasts a whooping 22,5h with Windows 10.

\- The headphone port is very noisy with Linux. No noise whatsoever with
Windows.

\- WiFi performance is dismal in Linux. No problem with Windows.

\- The HDMI port on the separately sold docking station does not work
correctly with Linux.

For a laptop that comes with Linux pre-installed, that's pretty disappointing.

~~~
aexaey
Regarding 13h vs 22h battery life - I wonder if c't did any test with manually
enabled SATA power management? This is a big deal on recent Intel hardware and
unfortunately is still not enabled automatically by linux kernel, as described
here:

[http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/42156.html](http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/42156.html)

Easiest way to enable this is to run "powertop", switch to "Tunables" tab,
then toggle all lines that look like this:

    
    
      >> Bad Enable SATA link power management for host0
      >> Bad Enable SATA link power management for host1

~~~
tluyben2
Some people know how to tune and others just want to work on the laptop. As
this one comes with Ubuntu pre install, in my opinion, Canonical should
provide a patch or script to Dell which tunes this on par with Windows out of
the box instead of having the user do it. Seems MS arranges aggressive
powermanagement out of the box for Windows so Ubuntu should have the same.
This is an example of the wrong way around anyway; you should not have to
install and run powertop etc ; you should have to deinstall it if you do not
want it... IMHO that it. I use powertop and some of my own scripts on my
X220's (my go-to laptops for years now and hopefully years to come) and I get
the same battery life as Windows on it.

~~~
aexaey
That is a very good point. I would go even further and say that Canonical,
too, shouldn't have to apply patches. That's upstream kernel's job.

But here's the rub - on some hardware enabling SATA PM can sometimes lead to
various weird bugs - from failure to boot to crash with blank screen after few
hours of working perfectly. And Intel would't release any sort of
documentation that sheds any light on why that is the case, and what should be
done to avoid it. Intel _does_ know what to do, since _(sic)_ Intel's storage
drivers do the right thing on Windows.

Which brings us to even stranger point: Intel apparently doesn't share this
documentation with Microsoft either. Hence new laptops with pre-installed
Windows ship with Intel's storage drivers, while installing vanilla Windows 10
with Microsoft's storage drivers will give you as bad a battery life, as you
get under Linux. This is an issue important enough that some laptop vendors
employ hardware tricks to make storage hardware "invisible" for normal
Microsoft's drivers for no good purpose other than to enable Intel's driver
take over this hardware smoothly. See for example recent "Lenovo fake RAID"
debacle:

[http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/44694.html](http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/44694.html)

~~~
ninja_quack
There is a patch to make the nvme drive last a bit longer mentioned on the
arch wiki (I've not tried it yet, tbh):

[https://github.com/damige/linux-nvme](https://github.com/damige/linux-nvme)

[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Dell_XPS_13_(9360)](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Dell_XPS_13_\(9360\))

~~~
aexaey
That is not quite the same thing. Andy's NVMe patches allow drive itself to go
into deeper power-saving states, while discussion above was about power-
management of SATA controller which is part of PCH (earlier known as
northbridge), which in turn, on last 3 generations of Intel CPUs is integrated
into the same die as CPU itself.

Unpleasant side-effect of SATA (or NVMe) controller being integrated onto the
CPU die is that it now shares a power domain with the rest of the chip (i.e.
PM being present or absent on SATA controller affects allowed set of C-states
for the whole package). In other words, as long as SATA controller don't go
into deep sleep (i.e. never - without power management enabled), whole CPU+PCH
package would not go to deeper C-state. Thus, lack of PM in storage controller
has disproportionately high effect on the total system power consumption.

------
hmottestad
Just as a note to anyone wanting to pick one up. The webcam is down by the
keyboard, and not in the bezel above the screen. So if you work remote, all
your fellow workmates will be staring up your nose.

[https://www.google.no/search?q=xps+13+webcam&safe=off&source...](https://www.google.no/search?q=xps+13+webcam&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwuZORhMnQAhXLBcAKHeUnDlwQ_AUICCgB&biw=1068&bih=816)

~~~
e40
Given the security fears of cameras, I think it would be nice to have a no-
camera option. Those that want a camera can then use a USB one, the main
feature of which is that it can be unplugged when not in use.

~~~
numerlo
Go old school and use a tape, it should work just as well.

~~~
scurvy
How do you deal with the microphone?

~~~
Faaak
Take a needle and punch it

~~~
scurvy
What if you need it one day? You can remove tape from the web cam, but a
needle is quite permanent.

~~~
poizan42
I would think that the microphone is connected to the motherboard with a plug
of some sort. So just open it up and disconnect that.

------
pavanky

      *Killer cards are a branding of Qualcomm Atheros.  Their Linux drivers are open source and the firmware is now upstream.
    

This is very interesting. I am glad they are trying to include as many open
source drivers as possible!

On a side note, Dell seems to be putting a bit of effort into this series. Do
you guys think they are selling well enough for them to continue doing this or
are they doing this as a hedge against Microsoft ?

~~~
georgyo
I switched from a macbook to the previous model a year ago and put Arch on it.
The machine is really really excellent.

I recently walked in a cafe in NYC and saw 6 of them and two macbooks, which I
was shocked at.

So I hope Dell keeps it up. It's about time we had someone make decent
laptops, besides apple, again. I was really missing the IBM Thinkpad series
until these came along. Lenovo did not carry the torch well.

~~~
pavanky
Nice! I have a developer version of the Dell precision series that is 2
generations old at this point. It has one of the best screens I have ever
seen.

> I recently walked in a cafe in NYC and saw 6 of them and two macbooks, which
> I was shocked at.

Interesting! Is there any chance you caught what OS they were on (i.e. Linux
vs Windows).

~~~
georgyo
I saw two people running ubuntu unity. But I didn't go around and check the
rest.

~~~
pavanky
That is great to hear!

------
forgotpwtomain
> This Kaby Lake-based system comes with Ubuntu 16.04LTS preloaded and
> features the InfinityEdge display.

If you haven't had the personal experience yet: stay away from new Intel
processors on linux for at least a year post release. And if you must purchase
something with a new Intel processor - do yourself a favor and pick a rolling-
release distribution like Archlinux. -- but seriously I advice against it, I
tried an XPS 15 with Skylake a little over half-a-year ago and it was
extremely unstable at the time (even running the kernel of git-master).

~~~
icebraining
This is why I like buying used laptops - they're cheap and the kinks are
already worked out.

~~~
eb0la
Where do you usually buy them? Any recommendation?

~~~
icebraining
Usually is a bit strong - I'm only on my third, since I tend to keep them
until they fall apart - but I try to look for people selling off company
laptops on Craigslist and equivalent. They're usually well taken care of and
reasonably good quality. I found a 12" Thinkpad for $250 that was as good as
new. I got a new battery, since I prefer 9 cells over 6, but the original
still held 90%+ of the charge.

------
storrgie
This may sound snarky but we've run the 7370 version of their lineup and
chosen to abandon them for T460s at the time being. There are some pretty not
cool things going on with the thunderbolt subsystem when it comes to displays
and network cards.

Edit: to go into a bit more detail, we seem to see arbitrary packet loss on
the thunderbolt based network cards (pigtails and docking stations), as well
as sometimes the MAC changes, which messes with our radius system.

Furthermore, there are some issues with hardware acceleration on skylake so
having a QHD screen is basically a waste if you want to try and view any QHD
video content.

We ran Arch the entire time my team was on these and we kept the wiki up for
this product. It just seemed that we were fighting a loosing battle with
Dell's docks and with Intel's skylake stuff.

~~~
semi-extrinsic
I have a Precision 5510 (XPS 15 Pro model), and was having nothing but trouble
with their Thunderbolt/USB Type C docking station. After I threw that away and
bought a pair of these [1] USB 3.0 to HDMI/VGA/Eth/USB dongles plugged into a
7 port USB hub, I've had no trouble, and no sacrifice in convenience. This was
on Win 10. I believe those dongles are now useable also on Linux.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Dell-DA100-Universal-
Adapter/dp/B00O0...](https://www.amazon.com/Dell-DA100-Universal-
Adapter/dp/B00O0M46T0)

~~~
partisan
Do you recommend the 5510? I am seriously considering replacing my MacBook Pro
with this. I currently get an hour and change of battery life when running my
Windows VM even though OSX gets 7 hours easily.

~~~
semi-extrinsic
It's a nice piece of kit for sure. I have the smaller battery, and it lasts
about 4-5 hours. Would recommend skipping the second SSD and getting the
bigger battery if you're off-power alot.

On the negative, Windows 10 HiDPI scaling is still flaky, especially if you
have a 1080p external monitor plugged in (then it's essentially broken), so
I'd recommend skipping the 4K version.

Also, you might want to set aside a few hours for driver upgrades, unless
they've updated the install image since April. Both the WiFi, graphics and USB
drivers that shipped on my machine were really flaky.

I haven't tried dual booting it with Linux yet, but it runs a Linux VM just
fine. The heaviest application I run on it is probably AutoCAD, which makes it
struggle sometimes, especially on battery power.

You might want to also look at the HP EliteBook lineup, I've heard that
they're good solid machines, perhaps with less fuss out of the box.

------
sssparkkk
A word of warning for those interested in this machine or the 15 inch version:
there are issues with the keyboard resulting in double characters when typing
fast [1]. I have the precision 5510 (basically an XPS 15) and have the same
issue, it's driving me nuts and Dell won't (can't?) do anything about it.

Also, I'm currently on an old (1.2.0 instead of 1.2.14) bios firmware because
they managed to introduce display flicker on on all but the highest brightness
setting.

In short: there are real problems with quality assurance at Dell - be ready
for this if you decide to buy one of their laptops.

[1]
[http://www.dell.com/support/Article/nl/nl/nlbsdt1/SLN297563/...](http://www.dell.com/support/Article/nl/nl/nlbsdt1/SLN297563/ZH)
\- here they suggest to adjust the key repeat/delay settings as a last resort
(doesn't help on my 5510)

~~~
AndyKelley
I have this same problem and it drives me nuts. I can type "asdf" and instead
of the correct key responses, I get "asdsafdf". No joke. You can see that
they've released 6+ BIOS updates to try to fix this but it's still broken.
Further, control, shift, and alt are extremely sensitive on where you apply
pressure. If you press one of these keys on the side or the corner, it doesn't
recognize that. Super frustrating.

~~~
sssparkkk
With regard to the debounce issue, if you're running Ubuntu you can use dconf
to set the slow keys timeout to a few ms (set slow keys to true as well) which
will prevent basically all spurious extra keypresses. The theory being that
your finger pressing a key sends a 'longer' signal than the bounce that
sometimes occurs.

A side affect on my machine is that controlling brightness using the keyboard
no longer works (other fn combinations still work) and pressing the power
button no longer brings up the logout/suspend/etc menu. Somehow these keys
always fire a really short press signal :|

So there's that.

------
gkafkg8y8
Since the post had mentioned what Linus uses...

For the OS, Linus had been using Fedora Workstation at least until a year ago,
last I heard. Linus doesn't like how Gnome deals with the 2016 XPS 13
Developer Edition either: [http://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-
reveals-his-favo...](http://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-reveals-his-
favorite-programming-laptop/)

"...has the same resolution as my desktop, but apparently because the laptop
screen is smaller, Gnome seems to decide on its own that I need an automatic
scaling factor of 2, which blows up all the stupid things (window decorations,
icons etc) to a ridiculous degree.".

To fix he said: "You need to go to the shell and run: gsettings set
org.gnome.desktop.interface scaling-factor 1."

Here's what Linus had at home, desktop-wise, as of Jul 18, 2014:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuS-3HSnpq4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuS-3HSnpq4)

But personally...

My ultimate Frankenstein laptop in would be something similar to the
dimensions of a MacBook Pro (2016), but with a few USB3 ports, memory card
reader, headphone jack, function keys and full length touch bar atop the
function keys. Then just max it out so I can run intense builds/tests, and
emulate Windows, macOS, and Linux.

As for the OS, for now I would use macOS. I like Pantheon in ElementaryOS,
though. I like that Elementary tries to emulate what drew developers to macs
2006-2010 (prior to Mac App Store when you got apps by downloading them and
didn't have to control-click to open unsigned ones and have both Launchpad and
Appstore when before it was just the /Applications directory). I've used
various Debian-based distros, but could be swayed to Fedora, maybe.

If I had money, I'd have a nice desktop and have all of the coolest games. But
I don't, so I have a thin factor laptop that just works and just big enough to
read comfortably.

------
tsaprailis
While I think that the Dell XPS is the most beautiful of the Dell machines, I
think that the lattitude, especially the e7470 model[0] is a better
development machine as they're more easily upgradable (at least regarding the
RAM and SSD).

[0][http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/latitude-e7470-ultrabook/p...](http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/latitude-e7470-ultrabook/pd)

~~~
20161112
The Precision 5510 is basically the XPS but with far more upgrade options.

~~~
fattire
But skylake, not kaby lake...

------
lazarus101
If you get this laptop don't make the same mistake I made (I have the Skylake
version). Don't waste your money buying the Dell™ USB 3.0 Ultra HD Triple
Video Docking Station D3100 (which is not even a real docking station cause it
won't charge your laptop while connected). This thing uses a proprietary
technology called Display Link and the support for Linux is just awful,
there's a closed source driver but I wasn't able to connect more than one
monitor and the Display Link process uses >30% CPU most of the time.

~~~
puzzle
This is so true. I have the Broadwell laptop, which is great, and the D3100
docking station, which is an utter piece of garbage, for all the reasons
above. If you used or tried to use it for even just half an hour, you'd
probably resort to even more inflammatory language. For me, it has become a
very expensive USB hub. I gave up on it completely when I realized that its
USB audio feature locked up the machine.

Thankfully, I found that the XPS13 has a DisplayPort output that is capable of
driving two daisy-chained monitors in addition to the internal screen (no
mirroring!), even at 2560x1440 on each. I use it with two Dell 27" monitors.
They must support DP1.2 for chaining to work. To be fair, there was a
regression for hotplug detection from Ubuntu 15.10 to 16.04, but it was
recently fixed.

~~~
glandium
Beware. The Skylake XPS13 has a DP output, but the Kaby Lake XPS13 doesn't
seem to.

------
wolfgke
I already complained on
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11815107](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11815107)
concerning the older edition that it is ludicrous to call a laptop "Developer
Edition" that does not even have an ethernet port. It seems Dell makes again
the same mistake.

For protocol: For selling a "hipster model" it should better be thin, well-
designed etc. For something that targets developers you want

\- Ethernet port (ideally 10 GBit/s instead of 1 GBit/s if possible)

\- Easily available maintaince manual and easy to open case to replace/extend
RAM, replace SSD, clean fan etc.

\- Hardware for which open specification is as much available as possible
(which is a much stronger condition than "open source drivers on GNU/Linux are
available")

\- But besides GNU/Linux it also should be able to run Windows (often it is
really import to be able to test software on Windows)

\- Non-locked UEFI bootloader (including possibility to enable/disable secure
boot) with ability add own keys and also remove existing secure boot keys
(e.g. Microsoft's one if you really are a FOSS fanboy).

\- Ideally possibility to compile UEFI firmware from source code on your own
such that as few blobs as possible are compiled in (this probably also implies
a necessity that a way exists to reset the UEFI to the factory state if you
bricked the UEFI by too much experimenting).

\- Long lifetime (5 years +) from purchase for which the device is officially
supported by the manufacturer

~~~
polack
I think quite many of us developers are happy with not having the thickness of
the laptop doubled just to add an ethernet port. You already need to carry a
chunky ethernet cable with you, so adding an usb-ethernet dongle isn't that
big of a price to pay.

~~~
icebraining
Are there dongles that can do 10, or even 1Gbps?

~~~
syntheticnature
There are definitely 1Gbps dongles, I bought one at Best Buy for a USB-only
laptop I picked up. Now, in hindsight, I'd probably go for integrated
Ethernet, but I also do a lot of embedded development for which I'm going to
be highly dependent on dongles and hubs anyhow.

------
zipfle
I really wish I could get 16gb RAM without paying for a touchscreen. It was
possible to get an Ubuntu XPS configured that way as recently as two weeks
ago. Should have pulled the trigger then.

~~~
jerven
Have a look at the precision series on their small business site. I am getting
one of those with 32gb for myself this Christmas.

------
JonyEpsilon
I wonder if they've fixed the coil whine problem with this iteration. That's
the sticking point for me currently.

~~~
IanCal
I've just got the previous version and the coil whine is really annoying. I'm
debating whether to keep it. I actually wouldn't mind as much if it's
constant, but hearing a "brbrbrbrbrbr" whenever I scroll is very irritating.

There's a lot of static on the headphone port too, which is disappointing.

------
aq3cn
Does any potential buyer has given serious thought to Intel NUC products
instead of a laptop?

I see several advantage of owing it like

1\. portability

2\. connects to extenal GPU (it already has integrated Iris Pro GPU)

3\. optical audio

4\. upgradable/future proof

5\. my choice of keyboard/mouse/os/display

6\. Thunderbolt™ 3

www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/nuc/products-overview.html

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11908100](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11908100)

~~~
peatmoss
Yeah (not a NUC specifically, though I considered that), but a small
formfactor PC.

I really like having that little bit of friction keeping me tied to an actual
workstation. If I'm feeling antsy like I should be sitting in a coffee shop or
office lounge area, that's usually a good signal to me that it's time to take
a break.

A workstation isn't a computer form factor, it's a comprehensive suite of
ergonomic and self mental conditioning decisions. As a side benefit, it's very
easy to find / build a ludicrously performant computer, for not much money,
that runs Linux (or even OpenBSD!) like a dream.

I was genuinely sad when my most sign-on with a job didn't give me a non-
laptop option. I'm increasingly of the opinion that kind, humane IT
departments offer workstations and allow people to borrow chromebooks for rare
travel or working from home. The alternative sets up a subtle expectation that
you could / should be working outside work. Plus I have to schlep the stupid
thing home or lock it up in a cabinet every night. If only I could epoxy it to
the desk...

You heard it here: 2017 is the year when startups, to demonstrate work-life
balance friendliness, advertise big desktop workstation options for employees.

~~~
aq3cn
I was talking from a point of view of a student and a light gamer. Due to
issues of transportation, it would not be feasible for me to have a
ludicrously performant computer or a gaming rig. I use portability in the
sense of being able to move across country with my device. I have a loud
speakers, Das mechanical keyboard and a gaming mouse along with ergonomic
chair and desk to help me type faster. That's my mental conditioning which I
cannot have on the move. After that there is always something on
download/upload on my laptop, so I never like disconnecting my laptop from
ethernet. So problem solved.

You can do what I am doing, plus get multi monitor set up too. So unplugging
your laptop becomes pain in ass. You can try love to hate your laptop touch
pad and keyboard, so always crave using a mouse and mechanical keyboard set
up. Uninstall wifi drivers too. That will help to keep your laptop locked in
with an ethernet cable.

I want a powerful PC which can be easily transported without any damage to it.
Mini PC seems to be better option than a gaming PC. As it has the option of
external GPU which allows me share it with others, instead of it being hooked
inside my laptop/custom pc all the time. Sharing decreases the cost. I know
about decreased performance of external GPU over USB C in comparison to
internal GPU.

I am not fan of so much power on the move. I don't even use a smart phone and
I am fine with a flip phone. It has 16GB SD card and a headphone jack. Today,
we see that in name of making devices thin and powerful companies are
soldering RAM and SSD to motherboard. That's the reason I have decided to move
away from laptops and depend on mini/custom PC. I can triple boot
Windows/macOS/Linux. I also use persistence installation of Linux or even
Windows using Windows to Go. So in case of emergency, I always have a way to
get back to where I left off. Portable softwares, Teamviewer and SSH is always
there too.

It seems to me that carrying powerful machine all the time must make one feel
obligated to get back to work and hence more hectic life. I just cannot afford
to pay premium price for additional power in portable form factor while losing
options of upgradability.

I also welcome desktop workstation as long as I can hook a NVIDIA 1080 and
play Crisis game.

PS: I read the review of Intel NUC, and it has graphics driver issues. Sad.

any opinion on this

Cubi 2 Intel Kaby Lake Core i7-7500U DDR4 mSATA HDMI Wifi Bluetooth SFF
Barebone PC (Cubi2-005BUS)

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LXP5JZC/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LXP5JZC/)

~~~
nobodyshere
I'm currently using the skylake nuc, all maxed out. That's dual Samsung 950
pro in raid0 and 32gb ram. Plus when I get home I hook it up to a razor core
with gtx1080 inside. The only problems that I see are raid drivers for rapid
storage controller and the fact that it can't draw power through the Core's
thunderbolt connection. Windows 10 is currently the host os with ubuntu
running in virtualbox.

~~~
aq3cn
I was concerned after reading this article.

Skull Canyon Graphics Output Problem
[https://communities.intel.com/thread/102260](https://communities.intel.com/thread/102260)
[https://communities.intel.com/thread/108306](https://communities.intel.com/thread/108306)

Anyway, it has been trickier to make full use of external GPU without
performance sacrifice. NUC has it's own power brick, do you use that or trying
to get power supply through USB C port?

~~~
nobodyshere
From the benchmarks that I've seen you lose about 5-10% of your GPU's
performance compared to what you'd get on a pci-e 16x interface.

As for USB-C, I use its thunderbolt3 properties to enable Razer Core. Haven't
used it that much as just a usb-c port. My idea was that it would be nice to
be able to power it up through something like Razer Core since it has more
than enough power output through this port. According to the documents it is
not possible with the NUC. Maybe next gen version will provide such a feature.

------
cxseven
I don't see how anyone can call this a developer edition laptop if it has the
same keyboard as the rest of the XPS line. XPS keyboards are mushy chiclets
with big gaps between keys.

Meanwhile, Dell's Latitude line has excellent keyboards, at least as excellent
as you're likely to get in a laptop these days.

~~~
morganvachon
I've always been a fan of the Latitude series, they are (in my experience) the
best combination of quality components, cost efficiency, and are easy to
repair/upgrade. The only negative is that they tend to lag behind Dell's other
series when it comes to having the latest CPU/GPU.

~~~
nix0n
How's the Linux support?

~~~
morganvachon
From Dell, no official support, but my experience over the years has been that
they are well supported by the Linux community for network drivers and things
like power management (sleep/wake). The biggest downside (for me) is the lack
of a good GPU beyond the Intel HD series; the models I've dealt with are most
often equipped with Quadro NVS chips. The NVS just barely outperforms the
Intel HD series, but requires the closed source driver to do so.

I haven't messed with them since the Sandy Bridge days though, so your mileage
may vary with more recent models.

------
rcdmd
This version has been out in the US for over a month now, I bought it directly
from Dell in October. I have the non-developer editoin and installed Arch
Linux on it as my primary OS. It did not require any hacks and the process is
well-documented on the Arch Wiki.

If you qualify for Dell EPP, you can get a non-developer edition with the same
specs as the developer edition and a Windows license for the same price.

~~~
daenney
Not quite the same specs, the wireless card is different.

~~~
rcdmd
That was the case with the last (9350) model, but now both have the same
"Killer 1535 802.11ac 2x2 WiFi and Bluetooth 4.1."

~~~
daenney
Ah sweet, thanks!

------
dudul
For F sake! Why can't I get a 16Gb without this freaking touch screen? This
"Customize and Buy" section is a joke, there is nothing to customize. So I get
either a garbage laptop with 8Gb and 128Gb SSD and a decent battery, or I spit
$1800 for a decent config with a stupid touch screen that will kill 3 hours of
my battery life?

Am I doing something wrong and just not finding the page to _really_ customize
the specs?

~~~
__mp
I have the same problem. I don't even see an option to change a spec all I get
is the 256GB/8GB/i5 base model in all the configurations. It's also not
possible to change the keyboard layout for my region (CH/DE).

[http://i.imgur.com/CqYtvyH.png](http://i.imgur.com/CqYtvyH.png)

------
rootbear
They currently offer only one low end model with the non-touch screen. I wish
they would offer a few better options with that screen. The regular HD screen
meets all my needs and takes much less power.

------
lol768
Anyone know if they fixed the long-running keyboard debounce issue with this
version? I remember it was 'fixed' with a few BIOS updates but they never
seemed to actually get to the root of the problem with the model I had and I
eventually returned it.

~~~
sssparkkk
I have the skylake precision 5510; it also has the keyboard debounce issue,
and it hasn't been fixed. Contacted Dell, had the keyboard replaced but that
hasn't helped. I don't have faith in their ability to fix this - it's been an
issue going back all the way to 2009 and affects multiple models (latitude,
inspiron, xps, precision)

Used an external keyboard for the first few months, so money back is not an
option anymore. Terrible experience!

------
sulam
<snark>But it only has 16GB, obviously that's not enough for
developers!</snark>

(Typing this on the new MBP that people tell me is not a "Pro" machine -- but
it's the best laptop I've ever owned!)

~~~
robinduckett
I've got last year's model and the ram has never been an issue for me, in fact
I manage to run 6 to 7 workspaces, each with a chrome window with a few
hundred tabs, terminal windows and an atom window all running really well. I
do have the great suspender installed which obviously helps.

~~~
speg
You have 1800 tabs? How do you cognitively manage that?

------
buro9
I have an i7 one, and I mostly love it. The issues though, they irk.

\- I can't get over the battery life difference, it actually tempts me back to
Windows.

\- If you get the highest resolution screen I've found that not all programs
in Linux handle the scaling correctly and if you don't scale the text is
unreadably small. This is especially telling with notifications.

\- If you have DisplayPort requirements you're going to be in trouble, there
are few to no DP dongles and the ones that exist don't pass through USB Type-C
and so you need multiple dongles off of dongles because there is only 1 USB
Type-C.

\- If you did go for the touchscreen version, the touchscreen doesn't seem to
always work after waking from sleep.

Aside from those things, the Ubuntu install went smoothly with everything
being recognised immediately and no need to muck around with anything.

Still... that battery. Makes me wonder whether I should switch to VMWare on
Windows to run my Linux.

~~~
rhodysurf
Did you try TLP and tuning with Powertop?

~~~
buro9
Powertop I did not know about, just googled and it looks nice, will definitely
investigate more.

And the laptop is a few weeks old. I spent 24 hours on Windows just to see how
it has changed as I haven't used Windows in about 5 years (used to be 50%
Linux, 50% Windows, last 5 years 100% Linux).

I didn't enjoy Windows, and sorely missed i3wm. But in it's favour, the
scaling was perfect everywhere, the battery life really blew me away, and it
the boot and shut down times were incredible.

I was tempted, for a moment, to consider Hyper-V Linux on Windows 10 Ent, but
just went Linux instead. Knowing it has that battery life under Windows means
this temptation remains.

~~~
ymse
`powertop --auto-tune` will turn all power-related settings to their most
conservative settings. You can adjust them individually by running `powertop`
interactively afterwards.

I would love to see power estimates before and after that command! In my
experience it increases battery time by 30-50%.

------
yoz-y
The I/O ports on it seem wrong. It would be much better if it lose the power
plug and one of the old USB ports for two additional TB3 ports. Love the power
gauge, although I rarely use it I really like it on my old MBP and miss it on
the new ones.

------
pgaddict
If you're looking for a larger laptop with the same design, look also at the
Dell Precision 5510 line, not just XPS 15. I've been waiting for an XPS15 with
a good CPU and without discrete GPU, and gave up - they only do i3 version.

Then I've noticed the new Precision 5510 uses the same XPS-like design, gives
you i5-6640HQ with Intel GPU (not sure why they don't offer i7 without Nvidia
too).

Anyway, got mine a few days ago, seems working flawlessly (except the usual
UEFI / Secure Boot stuff). Comes with Ubuntu out of the box, seems to work
fine with Qubes so far.

~~~
johnchristopher
I am in the same boat. I read that the 5510's fan is quite noisy so I am still
thinking of the xps (it's really important for me).

~~~
pgaddict
I don't think it's particularly noisy. Sure, you can hear it when doing CPU-
intensive stuff (say, doing "make -j4" on a large project), but well - the
heat needs to go somewhere, otherwise the laptop would get quite hot (like the
MBP, for example). The fan opening is on the bottom, not on the side/back as
on other laptops, so perhaps this also dampens the noise.

I've heard there were issues with proper power management on skylake when it
was new, so perhaps they fixed it in the kernel - no idea. Or maybe the noise
is worse on the models with Nvidia, which is one of the reasons why I wanted a
model without it. It's also possible that the fan will get more noisy over
time, so let's see.

Update: The one thing I'm only 95% happy with is the keyboard - it's way
better than on all the other 15.6" laptops I've tried (in particular no numpad
stupidity), but I'd still prefer the keyboard from my old t420s. The enter is
way too narrow on the "EN international" keyboard, should get the US keyboard
instead, for example.

------
nickthemagicman
Have a 15 XPS that I installed Ubuntu on.

I tried the 13 but I personally like bigger screen to work on.

Everything worked perfectly with Ubuntu 16.10 except the headphones which I
found a pretty simple solution for online.

I love it! Highly reccomended.

------
sakopov
I bought an XPS 15 a few weeks ago and couldn't be more happier. The build
quality is great and an amazing step up from the flimsy XPS I bought 4 years
ago. It's a beautiful machine. But, the entire case is a fingerprint magnet
though. I recommend some dBrand skins. The "carbon fiber" top cover is the
worst. You'll have to carry some cleaning cloth with you. The 1080p screen is
awesome. Perfect colors. So good I started editing my photos on this laptop vs
my high-end monitors. The keyboard is great. The track pad is great as well. I
know there were some driver issues with the track pad. It seems like all is
well now. Audio quality is terrible. My older XPS sounded amazing. The screen
has very very thin bezel. So because of that the web cam is awkwardly
positioned at the bottom of the screen just above the keyboard. So everyone
gets to see your chin when you're video conferencing. The battery life is
alright. If you want to squeeze more life out of the battery you'll have to
start undervolting, which isn't too bad. I run Windows with a couple of VS
instances and typically a bunch of Chrome tabs open. I get 6 hours with fairly
heavy usage. I get about 9 hours with some undervolting techniques (You can
find them online. Lot's of folks doing this). I really suggest the power
companion Dell sells as an accessory to this laptop. It'll help get you
through the work day. Goes without saying, If you want more battery life do
not buy XPS with the 4k screen.

No overheating issues. I haven't even heard the fans yet. So quite and cool so
far.

I also love the form factor. It doesn't feel like a 15'' laptop. Overall a
great buy. It's not the MacBook Pro but i think it's getting there and it's
definitely worth the money.

------
neverminder
They should have included at least two USB Type-C ports (or all of them as far
as I'm concerned), also use them for charging. I have 2015 Chomebook Pixel for
1.5 years now and going back to a dedicated proprietary charger/charging port
now seems so backwards. I am by all means no fan of Apple, but they sure had
the right idea with going all USB Type-C. This laptop is not future-proof in
my opinion.

~~~
Brakenshire
If I recall correctly, the XPS can charge either through USB-C, or through the
dedicated port.

~~~
neverminder
But then why would they include a dedicated charging port? That doesn't make
any sense.

~~~
Brakenshire
It's just an extra option, as I understand. It may also be because the
hardware for USB charging in laptops is still emerging. Current chipsets seem
to offer what they call 'USB-C charging', but not yet the higher power USB-PD
spec. So perhaps in their judgment the offerings haven't developed enough for
USB to be the sole mechanism.

------
mleonhard
Note that DELL is offering these with only 15W TDP CPUs:

\- i3-7100U
[https://ark.intel.com/products/95442](https://ark.intel.com/products/95442)

\- i5-7200U
[https://ark.intel.com/products/95443](https://ark.intel.com/products/95443)

\- i7-7500U
[https://ark.intel.com/products/95451](https://ark.intel.com/products/95451)

The most important determiner of machine performance is how much power the CPU
can use. CPUs turn watts into performance. A 45W CPU will deliver 3x the
performance of a 15W CPU. I'm disappointed that reporters continue to leave
out this crucial information in their reviews.

Upgrading from an i3 to an i5 CPU gives you about 10% better power efficiency.
Going to i7 gives another 10-15%. So for $650, you can upgrade to the i7 and
get a disappointing 25% increase in performance.

DELL is still charging an extra $400 for a 256 GB SSD. Last year, I bought the
2015 XPS 13 and immediately replaced the SSD with a $200 500GB Samsung 850
EVO. Then I wasted several hours using DELL's disgracefully buggy installer.
Then it was 5 more hours spread over the next weeks to solve other problems
like slow wifi, video decoding becoming slow after resume, and random freezes
during resume. I still have problems with sound sometimes not working.
Overall, the experience has been disappointing.

It seems that DELL is releasing buggy laptops again this year. These laptops
should be usable after a few months, once the Linux community has fixed the
worst of DELL's software bugs. I wish DELL would put more resources behind
their products and make them really good.

~~~
elsen
> CPUs turn watts into performance. A 45W CPU will deliver 3x the performance
> of a 15W CPU.

Can you provide a reference for this?

I'm pretty sure a CPU turns watts into HEAT and PERFORMANCE,

The 15W you're talking about is the TDP, which describe HEAT. This tells you
about battery life mainly. Ghz is the unit of PERFORMANCE.

------
pjmlp
Is it actually available in Europe?

Here in Germany it always displays "Product currently not available",
regardless how many times I visited the web site.

~~~
dacm
Website is a complete mess and the page you refer to was probably about the
previous model which was withdrawn. Anyway, after some search I managed to
find it here in Spain and even order one (they have a nice discount these days
due to Black Friday). This one should make it for you:
[http://www.dell.com/de/unternehmen/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd?o...](http://www.dell.com/de/unternehmen/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd?oc=bnx93611&model_id=xps-13-9360-laptop)

------
ikeboy
Note that i7 laptop quad core chips are not out yet. On my current dual core
i7-6500u 16gb (HP pavilion 15), it noticeably slows down with a modest number
of chrome tabs (50 or so spread between several windows, but many of them
suspended).

Side note: are there any quad core skylake i7 laptops with a good battery
life, like closer to 8 hours than 4?

~~~
jmkni
I have an XPS 15 with the 4K monitor, and I get about three hours or so on
battery when developing with Visual Studio, and running a VM etc.

I hear the 1080p version has much better battery life.

------
spapas82
Hello, this is a little unrelated question to this specific laptop however
since the thread has some traction I'll post it here to get some answers -
please ignore it if you really find it not related to the topic.

Now, I see that the XPS and most similar (good) laptops in the high-end price
range have processors like i5-5xxxU, i7-7xxxU (for example XPS has i7-7500U)
etc. Now, these processors may be i5 or i7 but, if you take a look at their
real speed you'll see that they really, really slow:
[https://www.cpubenchmark.net/laptop.html](https://www.cpubenchmark.net/laptop.html).
the i7-7500U has a benchmark of 5,306 while, the high-end laptop CPUs have
around 10,000! Also, my humble 2 year old desktop i5-4690K has 7,700
([https://www.cpubenchmark.net/common_cpus.html](https://www.cpubenchmark.net/common_cpus.html))!

So my question and general comment is has anybody noticed it? I haven't ever
seen that remark on any reviews. The XPS is considered one of the best laptops
in the market. Is it really so slow? A fast CPU is required for most common
(developer) tasks i.e compiling, running VMs etc. Why nobody's mentioning that
slow CPU speed? I understand that the laptop manufacturers prefer these CPUs
because they have better battery life but shouldn't there be an option for
people that require the extra speed and don't care that much about the
battery?

Please notice that this isn't an issue with XPS only, for example, the Lenovo
Thinkpad T560 as an even slower CPU
([http://shop.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/thinkpad/t-series/t560/](http://shop.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/thinkpad/t-series/t560/)).

From my market research I've concluded that the only laptops that do actually
have good CPUs are the gaming laptops that have i7-xxxHQ and similar CPUs. If
I am not mistaken, the CPU is not as important in gaming as the GPU -- while
in a developer machine CPU is no1! (along with memory size of course)

~~~
gruez
Simple explanation: the i5 and i7 in question are 2 core, 4 threads, compared
to your desktop's i5 which is 4 cores, 4 threads.

~~~
niedzielski
Kaby Lake with 4 cores is still pending

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaby_Lake#Mobile_processors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaby_Lake#Mobile_processors)

------
yoodenvranx
> developer edition

I still wish there would be some options to get a display with a 4:3 aspect
ratio. This way you could build small-ish display with still enough room to
display a few more lines of code.

Just imagine a MacBook Air with a display which is ~1 inch taller than the
current version.

------
gnuvince
Is it possible to install my own SSD in an XPS 13? The price difference
between the default 128 GB drive and the 512 GB is a whooping $1000! I'd love
to buy an XPS 13, but this price difference sounds like theft.

~~~
h4waii
It absolutely is. It's 8 Torx and 1 Philips to remove the bottom, and the M.2
SSD is right there.

~~~
gnuvince
Thank you!

------
simonsarris
People who use the XPS13 daily: keyboard review/commentary, please?

~~~
_Robbie
I got the Developer Edition XPS 13 9360 two weeks ago. I have never
encountered the repeated key press problem some people with the XPS 15 seem to
have had. Compared with my old X1 Carbon, the keyboard on the XPS 13 is not
very good. On the XPS 13 the keys are flat, there is very little key travel,
and very little resistive force. The lack of resistive force means that your
fingers experience much more force when the keys are pressed (similar to tying
on a touchscreen's hard surface). From looking at the reviews of the XPS 13,
it sounds like these lackluster keyboards are the norm for Ultrabooks. The `,
and \ keys are very small, and the Page Up, Page Down, Home, and End keys are
overloaded with the arrow keys. There is only one super key, which is on the
left.

Most of the time I use an external keyboard. If you only cared about the
keyboard I would definitely recommend getting the X1 Carbon over the XPS 13.

------
scurvy
Are there any tips to getting Linux working well with HiDPI displays? We tried
running kUbuntu on a QHD Razer laptop and the experience was pretty bad. Also
tried Fedora, but that was bad for other reasons (kernel crashes, don't like
Gnome3).

With kUbuntu we can scale parts of the UI OK, but many apps just don't scale
and are unusable. Until this is really solved across the board, Linux laptops
will remain a thing of the future.

Also, the Kaby Lake power management was trash and the system would lock up
every time you toggled the caps lock.

~~~
chimeracoder
What are the issues you've run into? I'm using the older 4K model, so it's not
Kaby Lake, but many of the HiDPI complaints I would have had three years ago
are now resolved.

The only apps that don't scale in 4K are things like Unity and Steam, but
those are a problem on Windows as well.

~~~
scurvy
Java apps don't scale up. I use ThinkOrSwim (TD Ameritrade) for investing and
the scaling is non existent. There are other Java tools necessary for sysadmin
work that showed the same behavior.

There was another thing that I can't remember now. Reserve the right to edit
here. ;)

------
dorfsmay
No TrackPoint, 16 GB mem, not interested!

Where is the perceptions that developers want really thin laptops and super hi
res screen coming from? Neither is going to help me run a few VMs, data stores
etc...

~~~
karmajunkie
Just out of curiosity why the trackpoint requirement? I've always hated those
things, wondering if I'm missing something.

~~~
dorfsmay
For me:

• no need to take my hands of my keyboard when I need to move the cursor, so I
can start typing again right away

• you can make the cursor travel long distance by just applying a bit of hard
pressure, no need to go back and forth on the pad

• three-button, so I can use the middle button to paste (X11 copy/paste
system), open a link in a new tabe, etc...

------
jaxondu
Wondering if there is an awesome list of sanction notebooks used by
startups/tech companies? i.e. approved notebook brand and models to be
purchased for employee.

------
erokar
It looks good, but I'm a bit concerned about the keyboard. Can anyone comment
on how it is compared to e.g. the keyboard on a Macbook Air?

~~~
_Robbie
Here's my reply to another comment about the keyboard:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13051133](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13051133)

------
charlieegan3
Can anyone compare the XPS developer editions with the Ubuntu Precision 5000
series laptops? (beyond the obvious hardward differences)

([http://www.dell.com/en-
us/shop/productdetails/precision-m551...](http://www.dell.com/en-
us/shop/productdetails/precision-m5510-workstation))

------
elcct
I hope they'll keep the motherboard format, so that you could upgrade it to
future cpus etc. as the "shell" and the screen is pretty good. It is very easy
to replace a motherboard in XPS 13 - i did this to upgrade my XPS 9350 from
8GB to 16GB, without an issue and Dell has very detailed documentation how to
do it.

------
sfifs
Can I get these in India? There's currently NO Linux pre-installed laptops
available in India as far s I can see (apart from Chromebooks). In the
article, there seems to be some secret list of countries beyond EU and the US.
What's the barrier making these available more broadly and have
straightforward buying process?

~~~
codedinosaur
You can simply buy Windows versions of these laptops in India and install
Linux. AFAIK, the hardware is identical on both devices. If you install Ubuntu
on the machine, you will get all the drivers during installation. You might
want to wait for the Kaby Lake versions to hit Indian online stores though.

~~~
dsego
Not identical, the ubuntu version gets the well supported intel wireless card.

[http://en.community.dell.com/techcenter/os-
applications/f/46...](http://en.community.dell.com/techcenter/os-
applications/f/4613/t/19634843)

~~~
Rezo
That was true for the Skylake XPS machines. The new Kaby Lake machines, sold
with either Windows or Ubuntu, all use the "Killer" Qualcomm Atheros chip.

There's also more configurations to pick from with Windows, so it's not a bad
idea if you're comfortable installing Ubuntu by yourself.

------
emilsedgh
Great! I need a new laptop and my options are Thinkpad X1 Carbon and Dell XPS.

Anyone has experiences with the two of them so he can compare?

~~~
rcdmd
I chose Dell because the 13" screen fit my needs more than the 14", and they
have have committed to supporting Linux while Lenovo has been sluggish to
release necessary drivers (there was some backlash here and on Reddit 1-2
months ago about this). My Dell has a mild coil-whine problem, and the
keyboard is probably less desirable than the Lenovo's-- you can go to a
Microsoft store and try out the Dell's keyboard if you have one nearby.

~~~
spiralpolitik
I've used both over the last 3 years. The X1 Carbon is ahead in terms of build
quality and you have access to Lenovo's various maintenance options. The XPS
has better Linux support. Personally I found the Trackpad on the XPS 13
terrible to the point it was unusable.

If buying again would probably go for the X1 Carbon.

------
plg
You've got $1000 to spend on a new laptop to run linux, power + portability
are equal requirements (this is not a gaming laptop but coding, writing,
internet'ing, etc) ... what do you buy? I'm personally partial to thinkpads
but which one? New? Used?

------
tbrock
I wish they would stop pushing the touch screen on the higher end models.

------
dacox
Is there only a single configuration available in Canada? Some of the higher
tier models sound really nice but the model available in Canada has exactly
the same specs as my 5 year old Thinkpad.

------
Koshkin
What is it with this obsession with expensive first-tier brand computers? I
have a much cheaper Asus 8/256GB ZenBook which runs Slackware/KDE absolutely
perfectly and is a joy to use.

------
paulddraper
Not sure what "Developer edition" means.

Seems more consumer then developer IMHO. Has a touchscreen but doesn't have
Ethernet...

------
davexunit
Very happy to see they ditched the Intel wireless chip that requires
proprietary firmware for an Atheros chip.

------
dacox
Is there really only a single configuration available in Canada?

------
hellofunk
The Netherlands link to Dell's pages does not show Ubuntu as an option, only
Windows.

~~~
dacm
Here:
[http://www.dell.com/nl/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd?oc=cnx93611&m...](http://www.dell.com/nl/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd?oc=cnx93611&model_id=xps-13-9360-laptop)

------
pmyjavec
Anyone know about an Australian release date ?

~~~
lostsock
They're already out:
[http://www.dell.com/au/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd?oc=z510898au&...](http://www.dell.com/au/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd?oc=z510898au&model_id=xps-13-9360-laptop)

"Ships in 9 - 12 business days"

------
JustSomeNobody
are those prices correct? 949 for 128gb(who does this!?), but 1349 for 256gb?
400 jump and everything else the same!?

~~~
dudul
There is also a jump for the screen from non-touch to touch.
[http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd?3x_n...](http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd?3x_nav=OS_BRAND%3DUBUNT&3x_page=1&filterCollapsed=true)

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Ah, Ok, I see now. Hmmm... I don't see a way to increase from 128GB to 256GB
w/out also getting the touch screen. I would be perfectly happy with 13" @
1920X1080 and no touch screen.

Ah, well. For the best, I don't really need a new laptop ATM.

~~~
dudul
Same. I have really no use for a touch screen, but I wouldn't go with less
than 16gb and 256gb of storage.

------
joesmo
So they listened to developers demands from four years ago and didn't think to
upgrade the specs to what would be needed now in 2016 but left them at 2012
levels? They must have a different definition of "listened" than the rest of
the world.

