
Memoirs of a Bullied Kid - froggy
http://www.danoah.com/2010/10/memoirs-of-bullied-kid.html
======
aspir
This article means a great deal to me. It's good to see I wasn't alone. I was
lucky in high school, because our school wrestling coach saw the rage I
carried and convinced me to come out for the team. I lost 30 lbs the first
year and got the skills to defend myself. Because I was just a weird guy, I
still was a target, but I could protect myself and my friends who were also
targets.

I still carry it like a massive chip on my shoulder. I feel that it's the
reason I've driven forward into endeavors with intensity. It's made me who I
am today; but I still can't forgive the kids (and teachers) who made my life a
hell, also in 5th grade.

When I see a picture of myself as a little kid (>4 years) I get really sad for
the life that kid will have a few years after taking it. That's why I bust my
tail - to tell my little 4 year old self that it's worth it.

~~~
tomjen3
You weren't alone - I was bullied, as was my close family. Unlike you, it
ended earlier but only because the teachers finally realized how bad it had
gotten.

I disagree with his idea that those who are bullied needs to learn that they
are loved though - I never for a moment had any doubts about my parents
feelings for me, but that didn't help me end it. I have even less sympathy for
the idea of telling bullies that you love them.

Bullying will stop the day you hit back, they day you show them that you are
no longer a safe target - one way or the other (hint it has to show them that
_they_ are the small, weak person). Even showing you are under the protection
of somebody more powerful (used that trick in kindergarden) will only work for
so long.

~~~
maxawaytoolong
"Hitting Back"

This only works in the burbs or small towns. And only if you're white or non-
gangster asian.

In city schools when you hit back, you get ambushed and your ass kicked, and
the cycle continues until someone ends up in the hospital or dead.

~~~
forensic
Then the solution in those situations is to leave that environment.

Loving the bullies is equivalent to doing nothing.

------
danilocampos
I remember being in these spots. Growing up different isn't fun. For me, I
just didn't care that much about the things other kids valued. I wanted to
build things, read, learn about science and do experiments. For whatever
reason, the fact that I didn't care about sports at all made me as good as an
alien to my peers.

The fact that my mom is a lesbian, and that I didn't know any reason why
anyone should have a problem with that, didn't help things, either.

So, there were school hiking trips where I had prickly pear cactus fruit
pelted at me. I was pantsed at recess a couple of times. Once a little knife
was held on me. More often than not, people just said unkind things to me.
Getting into middle school was worse, just as the author said. There's some
special vein of cruelty that emerges at that age.

I happened to get lucky. Teachers noticed me, convinced my mom to let me be
tested for special classes, and I found friendship in people who were more
like me. At home, having a computer and learning about all I could do with it
gave me _extraordinary_ self worth that would have been wrung out of me at
school.

Eventually I learned to relate to people. By high school, I even got along
with the jocks and other popular types, though by choice I never fell into any
specific group.

Looking back, the author is right. I had it bad but my bullies had it worse.
My parents, at least, loved and prioritized me. I can't imagine the miserable
home lives these many of these kids must have had. (edit: Although, giving it
some thought, I don't know how much my kindness would have earned me from
these kids.)

All I know is this: my life was saved – _saved_ – by technology. I'm not sure
I'd have made it into adulthood without all the growth I gained thanks to my
good ol' Performa 6100.

------
Dove
I disagree strongly with the sentiment that bullies just need love, that
they're only doing it because they are hurting too. People are diverse, so I
won't deny that perhaps that's sometimes true. But I think it would be more
accurate to say that bullies do it because it's _fun_ and above all because
they _can_.

In short, bullies need to face punishments with teeth. And the bullied need to
have access to a justice system they can trust to actually work. Something
like this: <http://www.sudval.org/05_onepersononevote.html> (scroll down about
halfway to "When you were young", A True Story).

Look, our justice system as adults distinguishes between aggression and self
defense. But for some reason, we treat conflict between kids as if it's
everybody's fault, and everything's okay once it stops. That's unjust, and is
the root cause: adults that treat order and convenience as more important than
justice.

When I was a kid, I remember complaining that my (three years younger) sister
hit me. The first thing my mom asked? "What did you do to make her do that?"
Well, of course I answered, "Nothing," but it plainly wasn't true. Who picks a
fight with someone twice their size? And over the course of the discussion it
came out that I had taken her toy and teased her, and you know what? My sister
got a free pass. _I_ got in trouble.

How about that old fashioned rule, "If you can't say something nice, don't say
nothing at all?" How about, if I catch you insulting or belittling someone,
you have to be their servant for half an hour -- get their water, sharpen
their pencils, that sort of thing?

How about a justice system that treats allegations of teasing and insulting as
serious matters, and _investigates_ to get to the bottom of things? How about
a system that is concerned about kids' antisocial behavior, not because it is
currently bothering the adults, but because of the effects it has on both
victim and aggressor?

How about a system that punished physical violence harshly if it was
_aggressive_ , and leniently or not at all if it's _defensive_? How about a
system that says, "If you hit back with the aim of making the other kid stop,
and you stop as soon as he does, we'll hold you blameless?" You know, the same
deal adults get. (By popular judgement, anyway, if not always in court.)

How about a system that responded to kids' experiments in evil with love and
affection and attention, encouraging them to delve deeper and teaching them
that behaving cruelly toward others is a _great_ way to get all the stuff they
want?

Never mind on that last one.

~~~
Entlin
That's the best post in this entire thread. People don't get bullied in
adulthood because there is a working police and judicial entity. People get
bullied as kids because there isn't one.

Currently kids grow up for 18 years in a everyone-for-himself, in-order-to-be-
successfull-you-need-physical-strength-and-iron-will world, and just then they
switch to the much better and fairer world where being sucessful is not
dependant on being able to defend your own flesh.

That adult system of self-fulfillment while not having to mind fighting bad
guys all the time is the basis of our scientific and economic progress of the
past 200 years. The big question: why do we put our kids into a different,
unnecessery, dangerous and toxic environment for their first 18 years?

~~~
gcheong
"People don't get bullied in adulthood because there is a working police and
judicial entity."

Unfortunately while adults may be largely free from the physical violence,
workplace bullying does occur. Usually it is more subtle than the outright
taunting and physical violence of schoolyard bullies, which means its harder
to retaliate against but it can be very stressful - and HR is not on your
side.

"Currently kids grow up for 18 years in a everyone-for-himself, in-order-to-
be-successfull-you-need-physical-strength-and-iron-will world,.."

Sadly, the only other system I can think of that shares these traits is one
called "prison".

~~~
Entlin
Bogus. Forget HR, if you're bullied your options are 1) switch department 2)
file a police report 3) sue 4) switch company 5) move to a different town.

If you're a kid, there is no option to switch 1) class 2) file a police a
police report 3) sue 4) switch school or 5) move to a different town if your
parents don't cooperate. You're completely dependent on them.

If you don't get the difference between being a free agent in state governed
by rule of law, and being a dependent person in a defacto unpoliced area, you
should reconsider your way of thinking.

~~~
gcheong
I'm not saying that there are no options to workplace bullying, I am saying
that it happens.

------
znt
I guess this place has higher percentage of the bullied than other
communities, so let me share my bits:

I was the little kid with a big head and glasses which was the equivalent of
"bully magnet". I got beaten up during kindergarten (by kids smaller than me),
got beaten up in elementary school, secondary school, high school. Bullying
kind of stopped in university because bullies couldn't pass the entrance tests
heh.

And the funny thing is, I asked my family for help while I was getting
bullied. I told my father that "These kids at school ganged up on me and while
one was holding my arms the other one punched me". His response was "You
shouldn't respond to them, they'll be gone soon". Unfortunately, "not
responding" while you're getting punched is not a very efficient defense
technique.

So my dad didn't teach me how to defend myself, he didn't contact school
managers, he didn't do anything. And unfortunately this happened more than
once. It is very depressing for a small kid to lose his trust in his father.
And that happened to me when I was 9.

I knew no way to stop the bullying so naturally I focused my frustration on my
poor little sister. I made her cry a lot. I tortured animals. Anything weaker
than me received my wrath. And all this time my father was thinking I was a
bad naughty boy who should have learned some manners.

Every parent should know that they won't be able to protect their kids from
every harm. But they can prepare them, teach them, educate them about the
potential dangers they may ever face and support them if such situation
arises. I never had that kind of support, but my kids will have that. Oh and
they'll learn how to land a flying headbutt onto a bully's nose if they get
close enough.

~~~
varjag
> I knew no way to stop the bullying so naturally I focused my frustration on
> my poor little sister. I made her cry a lot. I tortured animals. Anything
> weaker than me received my wrath. And all this time my father was thinking I
> was a bad naughty boy who should have learned some manners.

You probably also know why bullies did that to you. Never met one bully who
hasn't some shit going on home.

------
elblanco
I say this not as a kid who was bullied, but who had many friends who were
bullied. And being a guy, this really applies to guys, girl bullying is a
different dynamic.

The best way to overcome a childhood bully is to get in an old fashioned
schoolyard fistfight with them. It doesn't matter if you loose, just don't
loose badly. Fight them until your face is bloodied and your nose is broken,
until your knuckles hurt, and you can barely move. Cheat, use blunt objects
(no biting or weirdness), sucker punch, tackle, throw dirt in their eyes,
whatever. No sharp weapons or anything that'll do permanent damage. You aren't
fighting for honor here, this isn't feudal Japan. You're fighting for street
credit.

If you're winning, stop when he stops. Make the exchange free of emotion and a
cold business negotiation.

If he tries to fight you with a bunch of buddies, do whatever you can to move
it in front of a neutral crowd.

9 times out of 10, they won't even show for the fight. When they do, put on a
good show.

If you make it so troublesome to be a target, no matter how weird you are,
they'll leave you alone. You have to make it a bad equation for them to pick
on you. They pick on you because something is bad in their lives and they have
to pick on somebody and by not fighting back you make it easy for them to use
you as the outlet for their problems. Make it not easy, introduce friction
into that equation.

If you do fight, 9 times out of 10, you'll end up being their friend and most
of the time you'll find out that the bullies really have shitty life stories
and need a friend.

Treat the bully like an angry dog, don't turn your back, don't run. Slow
movements. He's not bullying you out of a rational decision, he's doing it out
of instinct. He's a dumb and dangerous animal you should treat that way.

In my experience one fight is generally enough.

------
rikthevik
God damn, is childhood a tough time. Life seems really easy these days. Grade
five felt about 10 years long.

Maybe I don't remember how bad it was, but I find myself thinking of the kids
who were doing the bullying. The one guy became an alcoholic in High School
because his dad needed someone to drink with during the day. School wasn't
good, but when I got home I was mostly in the clear. It's hard to imagine how
a child who felt constant fear and violence at home could do anything but
impose those things on others.

I hope that I can instill in my children both the skills to resist bullying
for themselves, but also the sense of justice to fight it when it's done to
others.

------
lionhearted
This comment will be controversial, especially for North Americans and Western
Europeans. I ask you to read it and think about it a moment before reacting,
and comment if you disagree. I believe what I'm about to say is true, and I'm
not trying to get a rise out of people - I want to fix some problems with
society.

I feel for the author. I also moved around a lot as a kid. No, wasn't a
military family. Just coincidences, reorganizations at work a few times in a
row, changing jobs, family circumstances. Sometimes things went great and I
fell into a group of good kids right away, sometimes they weren't so good.
It's normal that sometimes the new kid gets shit. I understand.

A little teasing is nasty, but kids can cross the line. Something like this:

> John and Mike never stopped. They never gave me a day off. And while their
> bullying hit maximum levels within a few days of school starting, the self
> loathing grew until I actually hated myself. ... they started in on new
> bullying tactics like sneaking up and cramming food from the floor into my
> mouth, knocking my lunch tray to the ground, throwing dangerous objects at
> me, tripping me, shoving me, and pushing me.

That's crossing the line. Those John and Mike kids are way past any acceptable
teasing/jockeying line.

What's the author advise?

> And so, I will ask you now to not hate the bullies. Experience tells me that
> hating them, or being angry with them, will always make it worse. Instead,
> put your arm around them. Love them. Tell them that they are valuable. Tell
> them that you expect great things from them. They will stop the bullying.

 _No, they won't._

This is where I'll offend polite society. I'm not doing it to get a rise out
of you. I'll tell you - this is the mainstream advice you hear growing up
these days. "Love the bullies, talk it out, and they'll stop."

No, that's false. That's how we got into this mess in the first place.

I remember I changed schools mid-year in seventh grade when we moved. I was
born in August which is the cut-off date, so I was effectively a year younger
than everyone else. I was 11 years old. The middle school I transferred to was
7th, 8th, and 9th grade. Just how that district was laid out.

A ninth grader - 14 or 15 years old, much bigger than me - pushed me into the
lockers the third day at school. Hard.

He then laughed with his friends and started to walk off.

I ran after him, tackled him, and started hitting him in the face.

We both got suspended. No one caused problems with me after that. I found a
nice group of friends and was respected. The older kid didn't cause me any
problems after that either. He didn't really acknowledge me one way or the
other, we were just strangers after that, which suited me fine.

And that's how you've got to do. This love the bullies thing - it's wrong. It
ignores our animal nature.

I've got some sets of names I'd name my sons as they're born. They're
unconventional names - Cosimo Marshall or Aurelius Marshall if the boy's
mother was Italian, Zhuge Marshall if he was Chinese. The boy will likely get
teased.

That's fine, tease back.

But son, as soon as someone puts their hands on you, they've crossed a line.
_Fuck them up._ It's the only thing these vicious freaks understand. They're
wild animals. They make violence on you, you need to show them that you're the
stronger, bigger animal. When someone attacks you maliciously for no reason,
you need to impose your will on them.

Even if you lose, lose swinging. They respect it. Be a tough fight.

This "talk it out" shit doesn't work... it's been the dogma for the last 30-50
years, it assumes the nobility of human nature will win out. It doesn't. It's
nonsense. It just simply doesn't work.

If you're not strong enough to impose your will on someone making violence on
you, then train and get stronger. If you're intelligent, it doesn't matter if
the other guy is bigger than you. Take up boxing or martial arts. Brain beats
brawn. Fight dirty if you have to. They shove food down your pants or
whatever? As soon as he turns around, hit him in the back of the head as hard
as you can. If you're much smaller, pick up a hard object and do it.

My Mom is awesome. She picked up from school when I was suspended. We sat in
the principal's office and she was very serious, saying yes, my son is serious
about school, he never gets into problems, I don't know what happened with the
fight. After we left, she took me out to lunch and said good job.

I wished I'd learned that lesson earlier. Some people are animals. The ones
that want to hurt you for no reason. Show them that you'll go to self-
destructive lengths to defend yourself and avenge yourself upon them, and
they'll stop. Also, protect others. I got into a shouting match protecting
some McDonald's employees from a mob boss in Hong Kong. A riot cop came to
break it up, I was almost in a fight with three mafia guys.

I had two guys try to mug me the other day in a dangerous area. Bad mistake,
doubled one of them over with a kick the stomach and shouted at the other one,
"YOU WANT TO DIE? BACK DOWN, STAY BACK." He did, he let me walk away while his
criminal buddy was doubled over.

Should I have "talked" with them, "loved" them, these vicious criminals? No,
they're animals. They don't understand.

Teach your kid to fight back and fight smart. Protect the weak. Be hell and
misery to bad people. Pacifism only works if there's someone else that's
strong around to keep things together - someone who'll stick up for you. If
everyone goes pacifist except the bad people, eventually one bad person with
no conscience winds up ruling.

No. It doesn't work. Teach your kids to fight back, fight smart, defend and
assert themselves, and protect others in trouble. There's legitimately bad
people in the world, barely above animals, and strength is the only thing they
respect. Assert yourself.

~~~
lotharbot
Both your post and the original overgeneralize, treating bullies as a
monolithic entity with a single motivation and a single response.

Bullies are not "wild animals" bullying for "no reason", they're people with
unique intellects and desires and motivations that you, or they, may not
understand. They may want others to see them as tough, or to feel powerful or
in control, or for laughs, or because they have something to gain, or because
everyone else does it and they think it's normal.

Effective responses have to be targeted based on the motivation. I'm not
saying you need to send bullies to the psychiatrist and "talk it out" to
understand their motivations, mind you, just that you can't expect the right
response to bully A to be the right response to bully B.

Sometimes the right response to a bully is to be a credible physical threat to
him. Other times it may be to get to know him and make him feel respected,
improving his self esteem, or to involve adults who will hand down more severe
punishment, or to laugh it off, or to make fun of him, or for someone else to
tell him "that's not cool". The right response might even be multi-tiered,
trying to change his underlying motivations, increasing the cost of bullying,
and decreasing the perceived benefits all at the same time.

Don't leave tools out of your arsenal by mistakenly thinking you should _only_
"love on them" or _only_ "fuck them up".

~~~
lionhearted
Good comment, thanks for the reply. To clarify, you only "fuck them up" when
they make violence on you. After they put their hands on you or someone
innocent, they're in the wrong and they've forfeited their moral right.

Also, something to think about -

> Bullies are not "wild animals" bullying for "no reason", they're people with
> unique intellects and desires and motivations that you, or they, may not
> understand.

I don't know what part of society you run in, but some people _are_ wild
animals. Probably not on Hacker News. Probably not in the suburbs. But some
people are born without a conscience, literally - I've looked into it, I've
studied criminology and crime and things like that a little bit. I'm not
expert, but when you look into it, something like 3% of people don't have
consciences, and some percent of those get off on hurting people... it's not a
big number, but those people are really wild animals to a large extent. I know
this isn't polite to say, but consider it. You may never have come across one
of those people, and God willing you never will. But they do exist. Hitler
type people, y'know? They only respect strength. They can't be talked or loved
or negotiated with.

Not many people. By all means, try a peaceful way if it works in the
situation. But once they put their hands on you or someone innocent, all bets
are off, and defend yourself fully.

~~~
lotharbot
I had a teen in a Sunday School class I taught who didn't have a conscience.
He didn't have any sense of right and wrong, or of consequences for actions.
He was a major bully; two other kids in my class of seven actually changed
schools to get away from him (which made Sunday mornings interesting, to say
the least!) He only respected strength -- but he _also needed to be loved_.

Like I said, don't limit your arsenal. Not even for the "wild" ones (even if
they're animals to a large extent, they're still people to some extent.)
Defend yourself and the innocent fully, but don't think that means you can't
also _love your enemy_.

~~~
twillerelator
>Defend yourself and the innocent fully, but don't think that means you can't
also love your enemy

Let me add the rationale: if you don't try to love your enemy, or try see
something good in him, then you _will_ hate him.

His hold over you will last as long as you hate him. Bullies feed off hate and
fear.

------
daylast
I am in my thirties now and it still utterly astonishes me the degree to which
the school administrators, teachers and parents in my high school viewed
bullying with blithe ignorance. I was never bullied myself and I was never a
bully, but I witnessed atrocities that would land any adult perpetrator behind
bars for several years. Sexual assaults of mentally handicapped kids, kids
having their heads forced into the water of a dirty toilet, kids shot with
pellet guns during class, on-going intimidation, beatings, etc. Amazingly,
this is just the stuff that I personally witnessed...I'm sure worse things
happened that I never saw. All of this transpired with virtually zero
repercussions for the bullies involved. It was truly sad. What is even more
sad is that the adults at the school essentially turned a blind eye to this
behaviour. I sure hope things have changed since then.

------
bonsaitree
As a fellow bullied child, I can empathize with the treatment, but I could not
disagree more with the proposed solutions.

You simply can not treat children as adults nor can all family situations be
adapted to yield the necessary love & care required to raise a non-bully.
Biologically, children also don't have the same ability to morally reason and
weigh present actions against future consequences. There's also a good deal of
evidence which suggests some personalities and brains have a preternatural
inclination towards aggressive actions and violence.

Children also learn, nearly from birth, how to please their parents and will
often, as the author did, shield their "shame" at being bullied.

I was taught by my father, quite simply, to "always stand up for your rights"
and that "dignity itself is worth fighting for".

As a kid, I never started a fight, but I ALWAYS responded to violence with
violence. For many bullies, violence is really is the only social interchange
they understand and the attention they receive from the public physical
domination of others is their main source of self-esteem.

I got into my fair share of physical altercations (which I lost more than I
won) and subsequent interactions with school disciplinary actions.

Nevertheless, win or lose, I never regretted any fight as they were 100%
effective at preventing future bullying.

If a bully "gets bullied back", they back down. If a bully "wins a fight",
they know you're always ready to throw-down and take the full measure of
consequences so they move on to easier "prey".

School systems are different, but at least in my case, it always helped out
with the school authorities to have the higher GPA and be recognized socially
as the "good kid that got in trouble".

Finally, one learns at a visceral level, the numerous costs and few benefits
of violence. Violence becomes a viable option, internalized very concretely,
as the option of absolute last resort.

------
yardie
Honestly, I can't imagine what the solution is these days. Fight back? maybe.
Maybe not. For my son I can say the most important thing is to assess your
enemy effectively.

I've lost a few friends through school violence. One was shot in the head at a
Christmas party, the other was ambushed, beaten into unconsciousness, and
never woke up. When I was a young kid the worse you could expect was to beaten
badly, by the time I finished high school clear, PVC backpacks and metal
detectors at the entrances were the rule.

My high school wasn't in the best neighborhood and my first experience with a
gun (9mm) was some kid showing it off and pointing it at random students.

The point is just know what's at stake before jumping into MAD mode. You may
find out the other guy is really ready to go nuclear. In primary school,
bullies are easy to figure out, they are little sociopaths that use violence.
By high school their little brains have developed and some may be full on
psycho.

------
agentultra
It's nice reading an article like this once in a while. I like to forget how
horrible my life had been. I eventually moved away from the town I grew up in
with no money and no prospects just to get away from the violence and constant
humiliation. I struggled every day since for everything I have today.

It's good to be reminded of where you came from.

~~~
mrtron
Reading it definitely brought up a lot of repressed memories. Life seems so
simple right now.

------
pasbesoin
If I ever have kids, they get martial arts training. From someone who
emphasizes self-awareness and a productive discipline, but who does not skimp
on the full range of effective techniques and the physical training to achieve
them.

They may like it more or less. Regardless, it will be a part of their
schooling.

Bullying ends when you end it. There may be more than one way to accomplish
this, but when you're outnumbered and out of reach of any help, you need to be
able to manage the physical situation. (This does not necessarily mean the
ability to defeat an arbitrary number of opponents; it also means being able
to reason ways to extricate oneself, etc.)

And, sooner or later, you'll be there. This is true throughout society and
throughout its various situations; cooperation is limited, and you're going to
end up facing difficult situations on your own. "Civility" is a luxury that is
not always available.

Being persistently without control can become a self-fulfilling situation.
Those neural pathways get burned in -- just as they do with everything else we
learn particularly through repeated experience.

I don't want my kids to be placed psychologically in that corner. I also don't
want them to place other in that corner, which is why the physical aspects are
not sufficient.

P.S. I've also learned that some physical injuries can be irreversible. It
doesn't do you much good to know that a bully will eventually "go away" or
"one day learn", if in the meantime you have permanent scars and worse to deal
with.

~~~
DifE-Q
As somebody who knows...skip the traditional martial arts and get them into
wrestling and Brazilian Jui Jitsu. Anything else will just turn into an
embarrassing situation.

~~~
Twisol
As with anything, YMMV. I've taken Karate lessons (specifically shaolin kempo)
since I was 4 years old, and I couldn't be happier. Just pick something that
makes sense.

------
cparedes
I think my friend said it best during a conversation we were having a few
weeks ago:

Him: "So, what was high school like for you?" Me: "It was pretty shitty. I
didn't really fit in anywhere." Him: "That makes sense - this sense of being
the outcast always seems to carry over to anyone's next endeavor."

And I can see that, too. I never really fit in anywhere, not even with the
nerds nor the AP kids. While everyone was postering and bullying me around, I
worked on Linux machines in the back area of an IT office in our school. Then
after school, I would usually go home and hacked on Linux and played video
games all day.

It was pretty soul crushing, though I'm better for it - now I work on UNIX
systems all day, and I couldn't have asked for a better job than this.
However, I still struggle with depression and feeling like an "outcast" no
matter where I go. Maybe my friend is right - this sense of ennui was a bit of
a carry over from my high school (and even college) days. (for those
wondering, one of my old alma maters, Seattle University, was a hell hole. It
was high school extended to another four years. I didn't want any more of that
shit.)

------
andrewl
There's a lot of good information on this site:

<http://www.bullyonline.org/>

It's poorly-organized, but it's worth digging around.

I gave a printout of the profile of a workplace bully
(<http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm>) to a woman I work with who
was facing severe bullying from her boss, and she said she got so engrossed in
it that she missed her stop on the train. I knew the bully as well and it was
_uncanny_ how well the description matched him. It was like he had a well-
known disease and we were reading a textbook description of its symptoms.

That was workplace bullying, but the site also has information on bullying in
schools.

------
tjarratt
The saddest element of this story, for me, is that so many children
internalize their rage and frustration and turn it against themselves. Just
imagine what would be possible if everyone that was bullied could turn that
anger around and use it to improve themselves, to make a difference in their
world and in their community.

I have to wonder how many great ideas were crushed because someone couldn't
believe in themselves to see their project from conception to completion.

------
djhworld
Here in the UK, many schools have a zero tolerance policy to bullying, but
this is nothing more than an empty gesture. As soon as a kid tells a teacher
about their bullying problems, the bullying will most certainly not stop as
the school as no power over what goes on beyond the school gates.

Bullies are never punished for their actions, which is why this problem always
perpetuates.

~~~
hugh3
There's no point in having a zero-tolerance policy if you don't have any
useful punishments to dole out. Some kids are afraid of getting detention, but
the ones who aren't are the ones who are causing problems.

This is why I believe in bringing back corporal punishment in schools. It
shouldn't be used too regularly, but it's important that for every child there
is a punishment which they _really_ fear.

------
arohann
I went to school in India and while there was some mild bullying now and again
it was nowhere near as bad as this. I find it surprising how big a problem it
is here in the US especially at the junior and high school level. In India the
problem is with hazing (called "ragging") at the college level. Why do
teachers stand by and let bullying continue unabated ?

------
gchpaco
When I was a kid I got a lot of this; the administration only really stepped
in when they started stoning me (yes, throwing rocks) but otherwise it was
just continuous misery. I suspect this guy probably had it worse, but there
are some very eerie similarities.

------
ajb
In some cultures - especially England - insults are a friendship overture.
(Yes, it's stupid, but it's the way things are.) What that means, is that the
optimal response is to insult back - laughing. _not_ to ignore it and _not_ to
take umbrage.

No, I'm not saying that all bullies are 'just trying to make friends'. They're
not, some of them are vicious shits. But if you live in such a culture, your
kid needs to know about it or he will never make friends (I'm not sure if this
applies to girls). It will seem like every other kid is out to get them.

Laughingly insulting back says 'I have respect for myself, and I am willing to
be friends'.

I didn't learn this while I was a kid.

------
brudgers
PG's essay along similar lines: <http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html>

~~~
fanboy123
Wow great article thanks for the link. I don't know if I agree with the
statement that nerds are separated from the pack by some sort of seperate
value system. I remember all the middle-upper class kids that were attractive
were automatically popular unless there was something very abnormal about
them. Life is pretty harsh, if you are awkward or funny looking you START off
placed in a box, which makes it much more likely over time to find comfort in
a book/computer rather than "being like everybody else."

I think that a large component of feeling like you ended up with a different
mindset due to "innate desire" is rationalization after being kicked out of
the herd.

------
joelhooks
One aspect of home educating our four kids is that none of them have ever been
bullied.

~~~
phpnode
Right, but unfortunately bullying is a part of life and learning how to deal
with it is an important life skill. How will you teach your children to deal
with this kind of aggressive confrontation? School isn't just about academic
education, it's about social education, I'm genuinely curious how you can
achieve this in a home school setting

~~~
DifE-Q
I know many home school children, and the common idea that they are not
socially educated, or well adjusted, is a myth. Most home schooled children do
not sit at home all day - cordoned away from the world. They are usually
involved in as much, if not more, activities outside of the home as public
schooled children. They have friends in their neighborhoods, and friends they
meet in home school groups and their home school activities. As a matter of
fact the home schooled children I know are not only generally smarter, and the
adults (home schooled) more successful and happier in life, but the kids are
far more socially adjusted than the kids that go to public schools.

Public schools by in large create social constructs that do not exist in the
adult world. The home schooled children can converse and interact in a healthy
way with both young and old - instead of their exclusive peer group.

I home school my children. Yet we have an active church social life, they take
piano, wrestling, archery and numerous other peer group events. Plus, on
beautiful fall and spring days - when most public school kids are shut up
behind brick walls wasting their time in classes with 30+ children learning
all of nothing - my kids are outside riding their bikes, exploring the
neighborhood, etc.

The other advantage is that if I see other children mistreating my children,
or if I see my children mistreating other children (or adults) - I can provide
the proper discipline and education in the matter; whereas a teacher wouldn't
even think to take the time and deal with the problem. This is not to say I
helicopter my children - but I am more aware of issues than a single teacher
might that has to keep track of 30 to a 100 or more students at a time and I
care more than a teacher would. And thus we come to why we are having this
discussion in the first place. The article was written by a guy who had a
teacher that was not really connected to him, and his parents were not aware
enough of the problem to notice and do anything about it. And the bully's
parents the same...

What could have happened with this guy? Had something not turned in his life,
he, like many others may have committed suicide and our world would be at a
loss for whatever service and good he has thus far rendered.

I think the question really should be this: How is it possible that public
school education can teach PROPER socialization - when the evidence and or
track record is that these schools produce anti-social behavior and
dysfunctional children at such a high level?

------
Scared31YearOld
Dan's open some seriously deep wounds.....

Am a 31 year old and this is a throw away account.

I have asked many questions here on HN and some, read correctly, clearly
showed my level of self-belief.

Since the age of 13 I was bullied, very little physical, mainly regarding my
appearence and colour. I am Indian, a little darker than my fellow indian
school mates. As I grew up, the the name calling and the playground bullying
started. This got worse as I got in to my teens. The same people got the
opportunity to bully me for around 12 hours of the day. This serious torment
has rendered me to the point of taking the suicide option on a daily basis.

You would be correct in assuming "he wrote the last sentence as present and
not in the past.".

You see, as a fellow HN'er, I can bearly program. I have not been able to
concentrate on anything. I scraped through a degree, blagged my way in to
jobs. My life has always been about planning, planing the escape from
classmates, planing how to get out of school without being noticed, planning
how to walk past some classmates on the pavement on the opposite side. This,
without realising, has had a dramatic effect on my life. I left my family, I
left everyone I knew to "get away". I planned to do this and planned to do
that, but nothing materialised because the constant bullying has lead me to be
down and depressed every step of the way.

Today, I earn over $60K+ working in Telecoms. I am shy, dont have the
confidence to approach women and yet, managed to somehow marry a beautiful,
kind hearted women but she has never known this about me. I hate myself. I
still feel, ugly, fat and black (this is not in the black/white way racial
way, but in a dark skinned highly unattactive way)....all those thing I got
called years ago still affect me today and I am 31 years old.

I am qualifed, experianced and confident in walking in to an interview and
getting the job, but my level of confidence ends there. Once in the job, am
subdued in to the corner by my own doing, loose all motivation, feel depressed
and just want to leave....all that after 2 weeks of starting a new job, yet I
love technology, I love neworking, programming and love being a techie!

What is wrong with me? How do I 'snap' out of this? Is it even possible? am I
depressed??? My doctor came to this conclusion 2 months ago. He died recently
so nothing was done about it.

I have been involved in some small startup here in the UK. I have buried
myself in them and throughly enjoyed it, albeit, with the constant nagging
from within of failure, unattractivenessno, no self-love etc etc. None have
been successful for their own reasons.

I long to do a startup, I long to make a successful product. I dont have any
love for designer clothes, fancy cars or big houses. Is simply wish to learn
to code and create a much loved and successful product.

I long to learn how to program correctly, effiecently but at each step, I fail
with lack of concentration (even basic CSS is not happening), pressure from
within and just wanting to get away from it all therefore loosing time and
forgeting what I learnt.

I wish I could go back and stand up to those bullies, I wish I didnt let them
get to me, I wish myself to be dead to this day. I have my religious beliefs
which stop me from commiting suicide, but god knows I have been close. I am
31, and I still cry myself to sleep for being a failure, all this, without my
wife of 10 years, knowing a single thing I've wrote above.

Bullies...Please Please Stop It.

Any advice would be helpful.

~~~
Nick_C
You are clinically depressed; lack of concentration and motivation, and
morbidity are key indicators, as is the sense of failure. The correct drugs
will help the morbidity and motivation; counselling, particularly CBT, will
help the sense of failure. Combined, they will treat the disease.

See a doctor straight away. You have had these symptoms for more than a few
months so start treating it seriously.

