
De Blasio Postpones Work on Crucial Water Tunnel - jstreebin
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/06/nyregion/de-blasio-postpones-work-on-crucial-water-tunnel.html
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koenigdavidmj
[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/17/nyregion/new-water-
tunnel-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/17/nyregion/new-water-tunnel-can-
provide-water-for-all-of-manhattan.html)

> _In one of the most significant milestones for the city’s water supply in
> nearly a century, the tunnel — authorized in 1954, begun in 1970 and
> considered the largest capital construction project ever undertaken in the
> five boroughs — will for the first time be equipped to provide water for all
> of Manhattan. Since 1917, the borough has relied on Tunnel No. 1, which was
> never inspected or significantly repaired after its opening._

> _“When I came into office,” Mr. Bloomberg said, “I asked, ‘What could
> literally close down this city?’ And a water tunnel failure would have
> really done that.”_

Manhattan is safe now, but eliminating the possibility of instantly plunging
half of _the_ most important city into the third world is more important than
any of his other projects. This needs to cost him the election.

~~~
Eric_WVGG
This whole thing is a non-story. They moved around some money in the budget
and it got mis-reported.

[http://gothamist.com/2016/04/06/de_blasio_diggin_tunnels.php...](http://gothamist.com/2016/04/06/de_blasio_diggin_tunnels.php#photo-1)

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mikeyouse
Cities like SF and NYC should receive far more Federal money than they
currently do for infrastructure projects. For decades, they've pumped billions
of dollars out of their areas in Federal taxes that could dramatically improve
quality of life. Invest in services for your most prosperous areas and magnify
the impact of that investment -- Much of it will come back in the form of
future taxes guaranteeing a decent multiplier on the spending.

~~~
bogomipz
I would argue that Cities like SF and NYC should get more money from State.
The majority of the tax coffers for the state of New York are filled by taxes
paid by the residents of NYC yet when it comes to receiving state funds NYC
comes up short. We see this with MTA that runs the subway which is responsible
for getting commuters to work so that they can provide a tax base for the
state. The state doesn't want to contribute at all. It's similar with other
infrastructure projects. Its a joke. If NYC were to somehow secede from the
state, the state would be broke overnight.

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sevensor
Where exactly do you suppose all of that water comes from? Independent New
York City needs to invest in desalination or pay through the nose for water.

~~~
bogomipz
That water comes from the Croton Watershed which comes from rain and snow.
Nobody owns it.

~~~
cmurf
Exactly. This finders keepers losers weepers shit is so f'n annoying.

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hackuser
Per the story the Bloomberg administration paid for the work, a least in part,
by significantly increasing water bills. It implies that's part of the reason
De Blasio cut back on it.

It's a bit of tangent but that's a regressive tax: It puts a greater burden on
the poor than on the wealthy: $10 from someone making $8/hour and risking
having their water shut off is a much larger sacrifice for the public good
than $10 from someone making six figures.

The trendy idea that taxes in general and progressive (not in the political
sense but in the technical sense) tax systems are somehow unfair is holding up
important development in the U.S. There is a cost to failing to invest; we
could never invest in anything and we'd be much poorer.

~~~
cubano
> The trendy idea that taxes in general and progressive (not in the political
> sense but in the technical sense) tax systems are somehow unfair is holding
> up important development in the U.S.

I would disagree.

The opposing trendy idea is that the eventual _output_ of the tax systems are
so filled with waste, fraud, and abuse that simply pouring more and more
money, no matter the source, into politically-connected blackhole businesses
contracted to perform some government sponsored task rarely if ever works and
needs to much more carefully managed.

There are so many real-world examples of this (healthcare.gov comes instantly
to mind, and the recent TSA app but there are many others) that I won't bother
to list them.

A much greater level of transparency for all these deals would go a long way
in helping fix these sensible concerns.

[edits]

~~~
mentalpiracy
This might be a trendy idea (and is not wrong, per se) but honestly the data
simply does not back it up. The GAO estimates that waste, fraud and corruption
amounted to approximately $126 billion in 2014.[1] Sure, that's a huge number,
but realize that the entire government spend for 2014 was 3.77 trillion
dollars.[2] This context is crucial - this "black hole" you are lending such
argumentative weight to only amounts to a 3% loss. Even if we were to double
the GAO's estimate to 6%, I'm not really convinced that really provides a
rational basis for describing the output of tax systems as "so filled with
waste, fraud and abuse".

No reasonable person objects to combating waste, fraud, and abuse. But it is
certainly not as widespread as some people might believe.

[1] GAO-15-814, Federal Spending Accountability -
[http://www.gao.gov/assets/680/672473.pdf](http://www.gao.gov/assets/680/672473.pdf)

[2] US Federal Budget 2014 -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_United_States_federal_bud...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_United_States_federal_budget)

edit: a word, "it is _not_ wrong, per se"

~~~
cubano
I personally find it almost absurd to expect the very agencies that are
nominally in control of Federal expenditures to reliably track and then expose
their own waste, folly, and, yes, theft of taxpayer funds.

Why do you think their is such huge support behind political establishment
outsiders such as Sanders and Trump?

Many people are simply exhausted by the lies and deceit that flows from elite
Washington circles nowadays, and thinking that self-reported figures are going
to placate them is wishful indeed.

~~~
mentalpiracy
I didn't downvote you, but I think you need to do some self-directed reading.

The GAO is widely credited from all sides for its standout analysis and data
gathering, independent of partisan affiliation or regulatory capture. Its
methods are quite rigorous and indeed, if you read the report that I linked in
my previous comment, you would see how some of the GAO's investigatory
successes have come from comparing agency self-reports against independent
audits.

As I said before also, nobody disputes that waste and fraud are bad and should
be stopped. But the problem is not nearly as widespread as generally believed
- and _that_ is the problem, because it elevates an minor issue to an outsized
status at the expense of other, larger issues.

~~~
cubano
> But the problem is not nearly as widespread as generally believed...

Yes well we agree to disagree because I firmly believe, and my 35 years of
experience following the issue closely prove to _me_ at least, that not only
is the problem widespread but is papered-over and much worse then will ever be
reported.

There is a solid statistic that something like only 10% of crime is reported
on and solved. I think this number matches nicely to the real damages, waste,
and fraud caused by the issue.

~~~
hackuser
> the problem ... is papered-over and much worse then will ever be reported

If it's not reported, how do you know about it?

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kchoudhu
So they're stopping construction in order to keep a lid on water and sewage
prices?

I wonder what his constituents will say when they have no water to pay for.

~~~
Shivetya
You end up with the same crap many other big cities ended up with. Not paying
for improvements when needed results in big expenses when you are offered no
choice later on. Atlanta had to spend billions and raises rates a lot because
the system started to fail, other cities are finally facing the truth about
their lead issues.

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Tomte
"The Works: Anatomy of a City" is an absolutely fascinating (and well-
illustrated) book about urban infrastructure.

It focuses too much on NYC for my taste, but that also means it can be really
concrete in its examples.

And the water supply, especially the tunnels, were one of the most captivating
chapters in there.

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Animats
Stopping work on Water Tunnel #3? That's not good.

Does NYC have water meters yet?

~~~
epc
The primary tunnel under Manhattan is completed (this is the one used in one
of the Die Hard movies). This seems to be about access shafts for splinter
tunnels in Brooklyn & Queens.

There's a lot of spin going on in the local press (ie, Mayoral flacks claim
there were no cuts, while other reports claim that the money was shifted
elsewhere).

Water meters are installed in all new buildings and buildings which have been
renovated. Allegedly the entire city should have had water meters by now but I
think a lot of smaller residential buildings still get billed by hypothetical
use, not metered.

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brooklyndude
So in the case of an accident, Brooklyn and Queens are dead, but the South
Bronx is awash in water? hmmmmmm. :-)

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jkot
I dont understand this. Athens city is basically broke, but streets are clean
and they build new infrastructure even today.

