
The Challenge of Making Friends as an Adult - MRonney
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/fashion/the-challenge-of-making-friends-as-an-adult.html?_r=1
======
tsotha
I knew a guy who made a boatload of money off of the dotcom bubble. He kept
doubling down and doubling down, then at right about the peak he told himself
"I have as much money as I'll ever need if I cash out now. There's no reason
to take any more risks." In other words, he timed it perfectly (based on his
own situation - he wasn't genius and he would freely admit that)

So here he was, a multimillionaire who'd spent the last five years or so
working and playing the market to the exclusion of everything else. He was one
of those people who had unconsciously believed if he just had enough money he
could find a way to be happy. When he finally had the money he realized
relationships with other people are what make you happy. But at that point he
didn't have any friends and didn't know how to make them.

He was, without a doubt, the most miserable guy I've ever met. He was always
willing to buy a round or lend people money. He'd go to Vegas and pay for five
or six people to go with him. So there were always people around. There were
always women willing to sleep with him. But they were there for the money and
he couldn't delude himself into thinking otherwise. The money actually added
to the problem, because it meant even when he wasn't paying, people had a
motive to hang around. So he became cynical and a bit paranoid.

Eventually he got into drugs and ended up eating a whole bottle of pills. I've
always wondered if any of those hangers-on went to the funeral.

~~~
larrys
"So there were always people around. There were always women willing to sleep
with him. But they were there for the money and he couldn't delude himself
into thinking otherwise."

For some reason people seem to think that someone wanting to be around because
of a person's fame or money is less pure than other reasons because it's not
real.

Generally when people want to be around someone it's because they give them
something the other person needs. It could be humour it could be looks, it
could be prestige, it could be they went to a college you admire, it could be
because they are in awe of the person, or their profession, or their power.
There is always a reason that a person is attractive to others. Money is
certainly one of those things. Sometimes it's because they are angling to gain
something from the person and sometimes it's just the halo that makes the
person more attractive or respect for what they have done.

I understand the whole idea of people who are successes attracting people and
not knowing of their motives. But the fact that someone liked you "way back"
when you were nobody doesn't mean their current attraction is entirely pure
either once you gain something else that is of benefit to them.

I've read these stories of guys who are big successes and manage to still play
ball with the same guys from high school who are "regular" guys. Do you think
the successful person's status has nothing to do with the fact that the high
school friends all manage to want to get together and maintain ties? I think
it does. For one thing it gives them something to talk about with others (say
at the office) that elevates them. "Oh, yeah, I played soft ball with my
friend from high school Robert DeNiro this weekend and was at his house,
anyway..."

~~~
tsotha
>For some reason people seem to think that someone wanting to be around
because of a person's fame or money is less pure than other reasons because
it's not real.

There's a big difference between a person's intrinsic properties and his
money. You like your friends; you like the rich guy's money.

And when you're around someone for his money you're playing a part. It's a
job. You're not going to tell him what you really think about anything. That's
pathological.

~~~
larrys
"You like your friends; you like the rich guy's money."

Oh?

So you think that there aren't a large number of rich people that are
interesting and have achieved something which is the reason they are rich? And
it would be great to spend some time with them?

Steve Jobs was rich _and_ had power and fame. So the only reason anyone would
want to be around Steve is because of the money, the power and the fame? Or
Larry Ellison? Or Warren Buffet? Or even Paul Graham? He's doing ok and I'm
sure he would be interesting to be around even for people who have no interest
in the startup scene and nothing to gain by knowing Paul.

But even if someone was born into money for that matter then as a result of
having money they also could be interesting and nice to be around for exactly
that reason. Or at least entertaining (the Kennedy's come to mind..)

~~~
sliverstorm
_the only reason anyone would want to be around Steve is because of the money,
the power and the fame?_

You completely miss the point- it isn't that nobody could like Steve as a
person. It's that, how can Steve tell who likes Steve and who just likes
Steve's money?

~~~
PakG1
That test really only happens in truly-down-in-the-dumps or life-and-death
situations.

~~~
gcr
How so?

~~~
msellout
It's easier to demonstrate a counterfactual than to prove the theorem.
Therefore the burden of proof should be on you to demonstrate the
counterfactual.

~~~
gcr
I don't think you're wrong, I'm just asking for some elaboration.

------
m0th87
> Thayer Prime, a 32-year-old strategy consultant who lives in London, has
> even developed a playful 100-point scale (100 being “best friend forever”).
> In her mind, she starts to dock new friend candidates as they begin to
> display annoying or disloyal behavior. Nine times out of 10, she said, her
> new friends end up from 30 to 60, or little more than an acquaintance.

Whoa. I would never want to be acquaintances with this person.

And yet that's not too far off from what I - and I think most people - are
doing. Sure, I don't have a scale. But I'm sizing people up. If I had that
cynical, narrow-minded approach back in high school, I don't think I'd have
the life-long friends I have now. I'm working on shutting that inner voice up,
but I think it's something that slowly creeps in over time.

But that's just part of the problem - the other is that, especially with big
moves, there's no obvious support structure for making new friends. Having
moved across the country a few months ago, I'm still trying to figure this one
out. Any idea HNers?

~~~
Timothee
_"Whoa. I would never want to be acquaintances with this person."_

Thinking of specific numbers is very cynical indeed, but I agree with the
point made though.

For example, there's a former colleague I've had a few lunches with, every 3-6
months or so, since the startup we were working at folded. We clicked well
when working together and we enjoyed talking about ideas. However, during the
past few lunches, I've been more and more annoyed at the fact that he's been
mostly interested in talking about his own stuff, not caring at all about
mine. (granted, I've wondered if I could be just like him, since I want to
talk about _my_ stuff… :)) Overtime, I realized that I won't be seeking
lunches with him anymore.

So unconsciously, every bad interaction kind of knocked some points off.

Friendship is really like any kind of relationship: you're expected to give
and to receive. If it goes only one way, it will eventually stop going any way
at all.

~~~
jkbyc
>Friendship is really like any kind of relationship: you're expected to give
and to receive. If it goes only one way, it will eventually stop going any way
at all.

The whole area of transactional psychology is based on that idea.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis>

------
Timothee
It's definitely challenging.

One part is actually meeting people with whom you click. Unless you go to a
lot of meetups and similar events, overall, you won't be meeting that many new
people besides co-workers. And meetups tend to have a theme other than just
having fun, whereas that's what most college activities are about. So you meet
people in a serious context, and you need to bring the fun with you.*

So, you first need to come across someone with whom you click, and then you
have to fuel that relationship. What's difficult there is that you need time.
Once married with children, grabbing a beer after work is not as simple. You
also have that awkwardness as pictured in "I love you, man" (and I believe a
Louis CK sketch in his TV show): you have to acknowledge pretty fast that
there's something going on and that you feel you could indeed become friends!
It's _one_ meetup, you're awkward now with that guy who seems cool, or you
might never see him again.

But as you grow older, you also lose a lot of that casualness that you had
before: you don't just invite them over after work to play video games. Now
that you're a "grown-up", it's "a dinner". And since you're a grown-up, your
home has better be somewhat clean, and you can't just serve pizza. What was a
spontaneous interaction before is now a whole event that needs planning, some
cleaning, some cooking, etc. (until of course, you become real friends) So
these happen less, and friendships can be like making mayonnaise: if you don't
make it go right now, you'll never make it go at all.

* I'm not saying meetups are no fun, just that it's not the end-game for everyone. Some people are there only for "professional" reasons and you need to figure out what people are looking for.

~~~
pnathan
> But as you grow older, you also lose a lot of that casualness that you had
> before: you don't just invite them over after work to play video games. Now
> that you're a "grown-up", it's "a dinner". And since you're a grown-up, your
> home has better be somewhat clean, and you can't just serve pizza. What was
> a spontaneous interaction before is now a whole event that needs planning,
> some cleaning, some cooking, etc. (until of course, you become real friends)
> So these happen less, and friendships can be like making mayonnaise: if you
> don't make it go right now, you'll never make it go at all.

That is so frustrating to me. I don't really want a Do when I get together
with people, I just want to kick back.

~~~
prawn
Aren't quiet pubs/bars for that? Or say you've had a busy week but how about
takeaway and some trashy TV in the background? Been meaning to try some local
restaurant, you guys want to see if it's any good?

~~~
jlgreco
I find the value of a good pub is vastly underestimated these days. I suspect
a combination of American college drinking culture and abstinence style
drinking education in public schools ( _"you can have more fun without
drinking!"_ ) are to blame.

~~~
Kliment
Pubs are too damn loud. That's my problem with them. There's very few quiet
places to have a drink. Many of the ones that do exist are upper class
targeted.

~~~
prawn
Go to a different pub. There's always that slightly dorkier place that you can
adopt which doesn't have live bands every Friday and get overrun with the in-
crowd. Might be a bit tragic, but who cares.

------
nhashem
Just going to share a little anecdote here.

I moved to Los Angeles in 2004. The next year I organized a softball team,
mostly coworkers at the time. There are six of us that have been playing since
we started, going on seven years now, even though we've almost all since
changed jobs. Even though it's "just softball" (and our league is about as
uncompetitive as possible without being totally beer-league), we've all made
attempts to make it to games that bordered on absurd. I'm talking like, having
a game end like 90 minutes before a flight I had booked, so I brought my
luggage to the game, planned for a cab to arrive right as our game ended, and
changed in the back seat of the cab on the way to the airport. Sure, I could
have just skipped the game. I don't know if it's as contrived as "not wanting
to let the team down." But these guys were my friends and I wanted to be
there. Outside the six of us, we've had countless guys come in for a season or
two, and then kind of fall off and stop playing. Almost all my post-college
"good friends" -- the kinds of guys I invited to my wedding, for example --
have played on this softball team.

So I've thought about this a lot. I guess I've concluded that male friendships
in particular are more easily forged in some environment of "commitment." In
the "you've been there for me, so you're a good guy, so I can feel comfortable
about opening up to you about subjects you only bring up with your good
friends," sense. Also, I don't think this happens overnight, at least not for
me. We were playing for two years before we'd do something like get dinner
after the game. It was another long while before we'd talk about deeper
friendship stuff like career advice, girlfriend problems, etc.

Hopefully I'm not making this sound like you can only make friends when you're
a "bro" who plays sports. When we're younger, these organizations exist
everywhere: high school, college, school clubs, sports teams, whatever. Just
any place where you're expected to give more than what may be convenient and
everyone else does the same. Going back to the softball team, let's say I get
two emails the day of a game. One guy says, "hey my boss wants to pull me in a
meeting that probably run long, I managed to tell him I have a hard stop at
7:00pm, but I may be like 10 minutes late to the game." Another guy says,
"hey, I had a big lunch, I'm gonna skip the game." Which guy am I going to end
up being friends with?

So I suppose my conclusion, at least for me personally, is that it's usually
not enough to find people I have something in common with, but something in
common that we're both committed to. It's tougher to find that after high
school and college, but it's not impossible.

~~~
rubashov
Beyond the juvenile stage men can't bond through "play time". Men bond through
shared struggle and purpose. You aren't going to make close lifetime male
friends at some stupid beer centric sports league.

<http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-Men-Jack-Donovan/dp/0985452307>

I think it's an interesting distinction that this is not really true of women.
Women can get close over various shared interests and activities.

~~~
Spearchucker
Not always true either. I spent some time in the military in South Africa
during the bush war. I can without a doubt say that I've never felt closer to
another male as I did then.

However, 23 years later and I only have contact details for _one_ of the 8,
and even though he and I are friends on Facebook we never exchange more than
the annual "happy birthday". Back then all 8 of us were in the same hole.
Today we have different lives, with little (if anything) in common. Anything
we have left for each other belongs to another time, and place.

A softball team is going to provide far more rewarding and, importantly,
_long-lasting_ friendships than "shared struggle and purpose".

~~~
jessedhillon
This is going to sound grossly presumptuous, because it is: Please find these
men you served with and give them a call, or write a letter, while all of you
are still alive. The thought of you guys drifting so far apart with so little
contact is making _me_ sad.

~~~
mark_integerdsv
Speaking as a fellow (?) South African, albeit younger (too young to have been
involved in that conflict) I feel it's worth pointing out that their drifting
apart may very well be by choice, or rather: simply not making an effort to
stay in touch.

In high school I had two teachers who were involved in the bush war or 'spent
time on the border' as it is often referred to, both of them clearly very
scarred by their experiences. One of them outright shell shocked.

I'm guessing that there may be some level of self preservation in leaving
experiences like that in the past, reconnecting with your life and getting on
with it.

~~~
xtracto
It may very well be that they decide to forget that part of their lives.

I cannot imagine how some kind of reunion would be good for remembrance:

"Do you remember that time when we got a granade and almost died?" "aaah
yes... bad times"... "Or what about when corporal Jones was blown into pieces"
"aaah yes... that morning we played poker toghether".

------
fecklessyouth
CHURCH, CHURCH, CHURCH.

There's none of the financial worries, pecking orders, or time constraints of
workplace friendships, plus more of the freedom. You do it, supposedly, once a
week, or more. There's no pressure to make small talk because you're there for
another purpose as well, so if you get uncomfortable, you can just leave. As
you get more involved, you start joining committees, planning events, coaching
teams, going on retreats, leading the local Boy Scout troop, participating in
Bible studies, etc and are able to bond with adults there. As long as you're
set on your denomination, there's no reason to leave while you're still in the
geographical area. Your kids can encourage interaction with other parents, and
if they stop being friends, they'll probably still be forced together through
sports/school/service events. And you're operating on the same general life
philosophy as all of them--supposedly.

When my parents moved, their "friends list" literally became a subsection of
the church directory.

Church literally fills every requirement in the article, since it's a very
social event with a purpose besides being social for its own sake. I'm amazed
the author didn't mention it. Well, not too amazed, since there's nothing more
socially unsexier than church groups. I know most people here aren't too warm
on religion but it sure knows how to built community.

~~~
philwelch
I think the main problem is that we live in an increasingly secular society,
but nothing has actually replaced church. And the people who are still at
church, at least at many churches, are right-wing nutjobs.

~~~
jleader
Have you been to a Unitarian Universalist church? Definitely not right-wing.

I've also read about left-wing Catholics and Baptists (two cases where the
main organization is generally seen as right-wing, but there are significant
left-wing groups within them). I'm not a church-goer myself, so I don't have
any suggestions on how to find a church you're comfortable with.

~~~
philwelch
> Have you been to a Unitarian Universalist church?

No, and statistically, neither have practically any church-going Americans.
Yes, I was talking about a generalization, I know there are liberal churches.

> I don't have any suggestions on how to find a church you're comfortable
> with.

For me personally, I don't think it's possible. I'm an atheist, and any church
that's liberal enough to allow atheism frankly doesn't have enough verve to
really hold my interest as a _church_ , you know?

~~~
wpietri
Depends on what you mean by verve, but I know some atheists who are perfectly
happy with the Unitarian Universalist church they go to. Plenty of interesting
people, a variety of social activities, a good place for their kids. They love
it.

I know some other atheists who go to a weekly Buddhist meditation group and
they are pretty involved with that community as well. I went by for a couple
of sits and it seemed like a great place to meet people. They were all quite
sincere and passionate about what brought them together. More so than in many
Christian churches I've visited, where a lot of the people are more Christian-
by-default than in any particularly thoughtful way.

~~~
philwelch
I was raised Catholic. Without a heavy dose of serious ritual and theology, I
can't take something calling itself a "church" very seriously. There has to be
something more than a social club.

Paradoxically, I can't find my way through to agree with any kind of
traditional Christian theology either, so I will remain unchurched.

~~~
Apocryphon
Too bad there's not an American/Western equivalent to Confucianism. Some sort
of deistic civic faith that is less about faith than it is about ritual,
philosophy, and social relationships. That seems like something you might be
interested in.

~~~
bdunbar
_Some sort of deistic civic faith that is less about faith than it is about
ritual, philosophy, and social relationships._

You're described the Unitarian church.

~~~
fecklessyouth
Not really. Confucianism is ingrained into Chinese society in ways the West
can't comprehend. UU is a 19th century offshoot of NE Congregationalism.

~~~
Apocryphon
Oh, I agree. I guess I'm riffing off of superficial similarities. I think some
of the Founding Fathers would have tried to create an American civic religion
akin to UU, however. (Not necessarily as a conscious decision, but they would
have been more comfortable with such a creed in comparison to Puritanism or
the sort of revivalism that led to the various Great Awakenings.)

------
dctoedt
1\. It helps to volunteer _regularly_ for a non-profit cause that you believe
in, or at least approve of. You likely will get to know some "nice" people;
once you establish that you're actually committed to whatever the cause is,
and not just on the prowl, then you can establish lifelong bonds.

2\. It also helps to be cheerfully unembarrassed about taking the lead in
organizing groups to do stuff. People are often secretly grateful to be able
to follow someone else. They'll often reject you. They'll say yes but then
flake out on you. You'll feel mortified; you'll be certain that everyone else
thinks you're a dork. That's OK; keep at it. (This is good practice for
customer development and sales work, come to think of it.)

3\. A lot of churches and synagogues have active single-adult programs. I
grant you, tech people often don't go for religious dogma. Neither do I.

I've been fairly happy in the Episcopal Church (I "married in") for reasons
described at
[http://www.questioningchristian.com/2005/05/why_i_call_myse....](http://www.questioningchristian.com/2005/05/why_i_call_myse.html).
Among other things, that post recounts how a priest's citation of the Second
Law of Thermodynamics, in a discussion about my inability to assent to dogma
about God, had a real impact on my religious views, such as they are.

~~~
tptacek
It's funny that you felt you had to couch the church thing this way. There are
more "religious" people on HN than you'd think, but they're mostly closeted.
Unlike the real world, where concerns about "a war on Christianity" are
entirely hysterical, there is a real intolerance towards it here.

Despite incredible advances in connectivity over the last 20 years, I think
you'd have a hard time finding thinkers who believe we're less isolated now
than we were in, say, 1980. Part of that is economic, but I'm sure a good
chunk of it has to do with the role churches used to play in our social lives
and don't so much anymore. Fear of isolation and alienation and loss of
fellowship might go some way towards explaining why religious people are so
jealously defensive of their churches: no matter how deeply they believe, the
church probably plays a huge role in their day-to-day life.

That's not a religious sentiment, just a statement of (maybe) fact. People
used to build barns together too.

I am, by the way, a sucker for stuff like this:

[http://www.questioningchristian.com/2004/11/redacting_the_n....](http://www.questioningchristian.com/2004/11/redacting_the_n.html)

More theology from startup people, please!

(I'm the worst Catholic on HN; Christmas & Easter, CCD the year of First
Communion and, I suppose, Confirmation. Church is not a major part of my
social life, at all.)

~~~
winter_blue
If you want really good theology I would recommend Mere Christianity by C.S.
Lewis: [http://www.amazon.com/Mere-Christianity-C-S-
Lewis/dp/0060652...](http://www.amazon.com/Mere-Christianity-C-S-
Lewis/dp/0060652926)

I'm a Christian myself and have been one for nearly two two years. I came from
a more or less non-religious background growing up and today Christ is of
utmost importance in my life displacing everything else.

I look forward to ultimate redemption of mankind - basically a time where
every problem in the world will be solved and there will be no suffering. It
will be a time when humans and their creator (God) will dwell together and
Christ will rule over them with justice and love. I believe there is no human
description of this supernatural world, what I assume is that it will be
filled with unfathomable joy and splendour.

A few verses from the Bible about it:
([http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21...](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21&version=NIV))

(Please bear in mind most of this is symbolic as is the rest of the Book of
Revelation)

"Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first
earth had passed away ... 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
“Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with
them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their
God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’
or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” 5
He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he
said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 He said
to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of
life." - Revelation 21

Most importantly of all, the price (or ticket) to enter the Kingdom of Heaven
has _already_ been paid; by Jesus on the cross.

The core Christian belief is that _all_ humans are sinner (or evil) and that
none of us are deserving of anything but death. But God so loved us (his
creation), that he decided to save us by taking the penalty of our sin (which
is death) upon himself on the cross. (Jesus is an exact representation of God
-
[http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+1%3A3...](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+1%3A3&version=NIV)).
He intends to eventually fix everything; this world, and unite us with
himself. The good news is that He freely offers us his salvation and all we
have to do to receive it is to believe in him.

This oft-quoted Bible verse summarizes it well: "16 For God so loved the world
that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not
perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world
to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."
([http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3%3A16-17&#...</a>)

~~~
plinkplonk
ugh the last thing we want - Christian (or any other religion for that matter)
dogma and evangelization on HN. What's next? A discussion of the Occultation
of the Hidden Imam?

This stuff _on HN_ needs flagging.

~~~
joshuacc
Personally, I'd find that discussion very interesting.

For anyone else who is unfamiliar with the term:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Occultation>

~~~
run4yourlives
Me too.

I find it fascinating that pretty much every religion has a messiah theme. The
big three of course, but also Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and ancient
religions like the Mayans and Persians.

It's such an out there idea - that of a saviour to return to impart perfection
- but so prevalent that I'd love to see a more intellectual exploration of the
topic.

~~~
tomjen3
I am not familiar with those religions, but aren't they monotheistic?

Because I don't recall Old Norse mythology as having any saviors (though the
gods were supposed to fight the evils after Ragnarok).

~~~
run4yourlives
Hinduism is not.

Ragnarok is eerily close to the Armageddon story however, complete with
monsters and beasts, darkness and destruction of the planet by fire from the
heavens. It's also very similar to the Mayan and Hindu "rebirth following
destruction" theories.

I'd posit that the "saviour" component of later religions is perhaps just a
development of the darkness in the rebirth narrative.

------
rweba
As the article says, it is not hard to MEET people - I meet plenty of people
mostly through work and a few through book clubs, running clubs, bike clubs or
just at the coffee shop. And a lot of them are actually legitimately cool
people that I would have become friends with if I met in college or grad
school.

The challenge is converting those people into FRIENDS. Basically you have to
hang out together a ton in order to build that comfort level and familiarity.
And modern adult western life simply doesn't facilitate this very much.

The one exception I can think of is a small town or village where people bump
into each other all the time without having to consciously plan to do so.

So it is a bit paradoxical: Living in a city there are a ton of interesting
people to meet, but precisely because of the density it is unlikely for you to
randomly end up spending enough time with someone for you to become good
friends.

~~~
smokeyj
It won't be long until gaming is mainstream for adults. It makes striking up a
conversation pretty casual. "Dude, you gotta help me kill these zombies. And
let's talk about those Q3 results..".

------
kafkaesque
This rings very true. In fact, I turned 29 eleven months ago and I moved here
(to another country, albeit culturally similar) eight months ago.

I have zero friends.

My coworkers are vastly different from me. I work with two people the most;
one is a younger guy who goes clubbing and is interested in getting laid, and
the other is a 40-something woman who is most likely menopausal and hates
everything in her life.

I'm married to boot.

All my friends and wife are back home. My immediate family is here but we
couldn't be any more different. My situation is complicated, but for all
intents and purposes, you can say I was adopted.

I moved here for a better job, yet it happens to be a city I hate; a city in
which driving and huge cars is a fact of life, yet I absolutely despise cars.
I am used to taking public transport, cycling, walking, and even running. I
run 5 times a week. The air is so bad here I had chest pain yesterday after
running. I still do it.

I observe the people in this dreadful city and feel they are either extremely
superficial, cliquey, and stereotypical or go-getters who do nearly anything
to go up the corporate ladder in a dog-eat-dog 'world'.

Where is the substance?

If you've not guessed already, I'm trying to get out of here, but it would be
nice to have meaningful conversations or form some type of meaningful
relationships along the way.

Most Americans (and maybe Canadians) will guess what city I'm in, and as
others have mentioned, the American west coast just works differently,
especially the southwest. It's definitely not me.

(Sorry if this sounds like a soapbox, corny or like I'm wearing my 'heart on
my sleeve' - I know it's not a social norm. It wasn't my intention and I hope
someone can extract something useful out of it.)

~~~
vellum
So, I see you're enjoying LA...

>The air is so bad here I had chest pain yesterday after >running. I still do
it.

Pro-tip: Don't run in the streets. Try the trails in Runyon Canyon, Lake
Hollywood, Griffith Park, Dockweiler Beach or the Strand in Venice.

~~~
kafkaesque
Thank you. This is a great tip. I am training for my first half marathon and
I've been running really early in the morning before work or after (around
6pm), but sometimes it gets too hot or I can't make those times and end up
running around 11am on weekends. Yesterday was the worst I ever felt.

Do you know how accurate areavibes.com is? I'm trying to move to a city with
cleaner air within the incorporated or unincorporated LA area.

Thanks again for the suggestions! I will have to check them out!

~~~
philiphodgen
And a very specific suggestion. Pasadena. One loop around the Rose Bowl is 5k.
I run it every night. Don't break the chain. I also do the trails of the San
Gabriels.

Come do some 5k loops with me.

------
majormajor
You don't even need to me approaching middle age. I'm in my 20s and moved
halfway across the country recently, and am continually amazed at how hard it
is to make good friends of the same gender. Given all the
websites/events/groups dedicated to meeting people to date I've found it far
easier than ever to get dates, but more difficult to make friends. It's a
weird reversal. There's probably an opportunity for a little business there,
but I haven't quite worked out how it would work.

~~~
crusso
_I've found it far easier than ever to get dates, but more difficult to make
friends_

That's interesting and kind of profound.

I guess when you're arranging dates on match.com, the intention is clear.
You're out to meet someone for a relationship. It's the goal.

A meetup to discuss Ruby on Rails or something is all about the subject of the
meetup. Most are there just to talk about Rails and get help with a bug, not
to make close friends.

How would you find activities where the specific goal is for people new to an
area to make friends, or maybe for people who aren't new to an area but they
want to make friends?

 _There's probably an opportunity for a little business there,_

There has to be someone already doing this... maybe?

~~~
vijayr
_I've found it far easier than ever to get dates, but more difficult to make
friends_

People have ridiculously high standards for friendships than dates. This
sounds weird, even writing it, but I've found it to be true again and again.
Many many people would have no problems dating absolute jerks, but wouldn't
hang out for 15 minutes with a genuinely nice person (of the same gender). May
be people are just desperate to hang out with people of opposite gender? I
dunno.

 _There's probably an opportunity for a little business there,_

I doubt that. How could you do this as a business? Arrange volunteer
activities/"friend dates"/hang-outs with the primary aim of making friends?
Make a website like lookingforfriends.com (just made up the name)? Most people
just can't be bothered to spend 5 minutes getting to know another person,
unless there is something in it for them (that is why it is easier to get
dates, than friends). It just boils down to, people are just plain selfish, at
least most of them.

~~~
ta12121
May be people are just desperate to <strike>hang out</strike> <i>have sex</i>
with with people of opposite gender

------
chernevik
At first I and my best friend regarded each other as assholes, but we were
forced together by a casual bridge game. One afternoon I arrived at his house
to discover the game was off -- he'd been accused of date rape and he and his
housemates were processing the news. He'd slept with a friend of his
girlfriend and this story was her excuse to the girlfriend.

I remember leaving the room, looking out a window and thinking "This guy isn't
as big a prick as _that_." (I had seen something like this before.) And I went
back in and said, "what are we going to do about this?" I had enough standing
among this larger circle to help slow down the rumors and witch-hunting until
things got sorted out, which happened quickly after Friend of GirlFriend
admitted it was just a lousy story. (He was never accused of this again, and
never had been before.)

We ended up living together for years, and I helped him move to university for
his masters. It turned out that we had similar interests and enjoyed similar
arguments and enjoyed picking stuff up off one another. He introduced me to
all sorts of music, and, a Jew, learned from me to give up ice cream for Lent.
(I got more from this friendship than he did.) When a friend's boyfriend moved
into town for her, we took him as a roommate, and cut her out when she dumped
him two weeks later -- we hardly knew the guy, but she had friends in town,
and he didn't. There was the day he yelled at me for suggesting something _he_
did all the time, because it wasn't something _I_ believed in.

Unfortunately, he was killed in a freak car accident, returning from
completion of his masters'. That was a long time ago. I've never come close to
anything like him.

In your twenties you live with more drama. You're figuring yourself out, you
do stupid things, people do stupid things to you. It's easier to see who and
what people are, and you need people more to bring you through all the noise.
As we age as we figure out our basic choices and move on from there. The drama
recedes and the volume goes down. We get more complicated and it becomes
harder to read us. Confessions that made sense as we were figuring stuff out
start to seem a lot more demonstrative and overwrought. Let's face it, many of
us make soul-deadening choices and become much less interesting.

As we "grow up" the stuff that was questioning and exciting starts looking
like instability. The raw threads of personality that can be woven into
another person get woven up into others and ourselves and tucked out of sight.
For lots of people this is actually good, there is less chaos and more
enjoyment and more creativity. But it does become harder to make friends.

tldr; Cherish your friends. You can lose them, and they're very hard to
replace.

~~~
zerostar07
_Let's face it, many of us make soul-deadening choices and become much less
interesting._

Wonder what could be done to break that vicious cycle

~~~
sp332
Continuing a ridiculous amount of drama into later life. Strong personalities
multiply personality conflicts. If you want a peaceful workplace, most people
will have to be much less "interesting".

~~~
TheSOB88
You can be interesting without forcing your perspective on others. You don't
have to tell other people they're wrong in order to tell them how you feel,
though it often happens with nerds like us.

~~~
sp332
If you're really passionate about something and motivated to change the world,
and you meet someone passionate and motivated about something that conflicts,
there are not many peaceful outcomes. Basically either one person gets
steamrolled so bad they have no power left, or one (or both) simply defer to
the other.

~~~
TheSOB88
I still think you can have professional disagreements and make a compromise
without being uncourteous and unprofessional. Of course, it's harder when the
other party isn't being professional, but it's still possible.

------
wallflower
A while back, I came across this advice below (which could touch a nerve with
some of you - because you may reject what it implicitly is saying - that you
need to put yourself out there - be willing to be rejected):

"It takes relationships to make relationships. And, in general, to make
relationships, you have to allow vulnerability. Vulnerability is the
difference between a conversation that starts, "How about this weather we're
having?" and a conversation that starts, "Oh my God, let me tell you about how
I just fell in a puddle in front of a group of nuns." The former is so boring
that it makes listeners want to crawl under a table; the latter creates a
spark and a list of follow-up questions. These are two extreme examples, but
generally, the more of yourself you put out there, the more others will have
to connect with.

As for your list of "nevers": they may feel big to you, but in the scheme of
things, they get a shrug. Each of us is on an individual and separately-
terrifying trajectory. Ultimately, you are not behind. Self-discovery is vital
at any age. A lot of people couple up, get married, and have kids without ever
having to look inward. Those are often the people who cave later in life. Get
that introspection out of the way now, and you'll set yourself up well for the
future — angst-Tumblr or no...

Pursue activities you are passionate about: passion is an attractive quality,
and others will pick up on it...

Friendships will be made when your attention is elsewhere."

[http://www.nerve.com/advice/miss-information/miss-
informatio...](http://www.nerve.com/advice/miss-information/miss-
information-209)

------
lwhi
It's a cynical, 'sharp', critique of 'modern' social struggles; written for
people who wish to think of themselves as cynical, sharp and modern. A cookie
cutter article describing a very common social ailment (loneliness) in a way
that panders to people's sense of self importance and social status.

In reality, to make a friend - you simply need to reflect what you feel
honestly in the company of someone else who's doing the same. Do that enough,
and soon enough you'll find someone who thinks in a way that meshes well with
your own mode of being .. and at the risk of making a NYT journalist's 1000
words redundant, that's actually as difficult as it gets.

~~~
pixie_
Nice.

------
m0nastic
I hadn't really ever given this much thought, but now if I categorize the
overwhelming majority of my friends, they fall into the following buckets:

High-School Friends (who I still stay in touch with, although only
peripherally, as I don't still live where I grew up)

College Friends (which includes a subset of High School friends, who I do a
better job of staying in touch with, but who also mostly live back where I
went to school)

Work Friends (the overwhelming majority of my friends are people I've worked
with at one time or another. Reservations about mixing work with pleasure
aside, people in my line of work tend to have a lot in common)

Photography School Friends (I suppose similar to college, but they are more
recent, and local. This group is unusual in that the entire class ended up
becoming really really close)

For whatever reason, I've never had trouble meeting people. What has proven to
be a lot of work is actually committing to spending time with people (as my
natural state is to never want to leave the house under any circumstances).

I've found online presence exacerbates that, as it's easy for me to convince
myself that I'm being social merely by responding to people's Facebook posts
(which doesn't really cut it).

~~~
gruseom
_m0nastic_

 _my natural state is to never want to leave the house under any
circumstances_

Coincidence? :)

~~~
m0nastic
The name was suggested to me many many years ago on IRC, but I'm sure it
resonated at least partly because of the way I'm wired. ;)

------
iterationx
The why is so much more interesting. Part of it is a product of topology,
visualize this pattern: home, car, work, car, home. There's not a lot of
surface area in there to meet someone. This is a product of America's lack of
streets, we have roads not streets. Roads are for cars, streets are for
people. Some good reading on this subject is, "The Great Good Place: Cafes,
Coffee Shops, Bookstores, Bars, Hair Salons, and Other Hangouts at the Heart
of a Community", and of course "Streets for People, A Primer for Americans".

~~~
pnathan
"home, car, work, car, home."

This is a problem, that's for sure.

------
krschultz
You make friends the same way you meet someone to date - by doing something.

You will not make friends sitting at home. You will not make friends at a bar
full of people.

Join a club or sports team. I've met most of my adult friends through ski club
trips and sailing teams. Or join a volunteer organization, or attend local
meetups, or take a photography/art class.

It is difficult to make friends at work, but not impossible. You have to find
common ground outside of work, because no one wants to hang out with people
where the only topic of conversation is work. I surf with one guy from my
office and ski with a few others.

The friendship is not from the activity - the activity could be solo (like
surfing). The friendship comes from the 3 hour car ride up to the mountain you
share BSing about stuff. Or hanging out in a bar after racing sailboats with
the rest of the crew. Or looking at the surf forecast in the office all day
hoping its good that evening.

Somehow the conversation grows from 'what mountains do you like to ski' to
'man I'm having X, Y, Z problems in my life'. That doesn't always happen, but
I've probably met 15 people over the last 2 years that I regularly do things
with outside of work and I'm actually friends with 3 or 4 of them.

------
fallous
I've long been of the opinion that the decline in local socializing (in the
physical realm) is due to the advent of air condition, radio, and later
television.

Previously people sat on their porches in the evening to escape the heat of
the house and thus saw their neighbors nightly. Now we're all in our climate-
controlled cocoons.

After moving to this city a few years ago where we had no friends or family, I
just started stopping at neighbor houses when I saw them working on something
and offered to help. Establishing this pattern of behavior triggered most of
them to do the same not only to me but also to other neighbors and now we have
a very tight-knit group of people whose only real initial "shared interest"
was physical proximity.

When one of the neighbors was diagnosed with terminal cancer, some of the
others were wondering what we could do to help. I suggested we ask him what
things he wanted done for his house so that he could not worry about such
things and focus on his last months with family. So we spent a lot of summer
weekends painting, roofing, doing general house repairs. Along with that his
teenage boys got to hang around a group of men in a setting where we would
naturally banter and tease without any social climbing or the like. Close to
the end of his life my neighbor told several of us that he was happy to know
that there were going to be men around his family that would take care of
things and serve as role models for his boys. I can't think of anything that
would give me more comfort if I was in his position.

So basically, get off your butt in the evenings and walk the neighborhood.
Look for someone doing something and offer to help. If nothing else you'll
feel good about being able to help someone out and it just may start the chain
reaction necessary to build an entirely new social group.

~~~
pnathan
The above comment should be read and thought about a bit.

------
tchock23
I wonder how much of the challenge of making friends as an adult varies by the
city you live in...

I moved to NYC last year from Rochester, NY and have found that people in NYC
are so "busy" all the time that it's much more difficult to make new friends
(the recent NY Times article on HN called "The Busy Trap" summed that up
perfectly). People in NYC also seem to treat new connections from the
perspective of "what can you do to help me advance somehow."

In Rochester, people seem to live more balanced lives (for example, they
generally leave work right at 5) and therefore have time to make new
connections. They're also less on guard about people, which could have a lot
to do with the size of city compared to NYC.

Granted, this is just my observation of the differences between one small/mid
size city and a very large one, but anyone else notice this as well?

~~~
rwhitman
I completely agree. A lot of this is part of living in NYC as opposed to
somewhere else. I lived in LA for 7 years and did not experience the same
aversion to making new good friends there. I think there are some missing
components to this regarding location and local culture that the author didn't
seem to be aware of

------
RexRollman
This reminds me of a time, last year, when I needed to fill out some paperwork
that asked me to list four friends and I couldn't list one (I ended up listing
my wife's friends instead).

Sadly, these days, I don't often meet anyone with similar interests. The
people who I do meet and find interesting are often female, which leaves me
confused about how friendly to get without causing people and my wife to think
I am cheating.

This definitely used to be easier.

------
gruseom
This is much better than the average lifestyle piece, or at least I guess it
is. I couldn't read it - it's too painfully accurate. I'm very sad that our
society works this way.

I think I'll go walk the dog.

------
zerostar07
This is a real problem that should be tackled in itself, rather than
suggesting friendmaking as a side effect of joining a class or sports group
etc. There's a prevalent view that people don't make friends when older
because only children and young adults do that. That's so wrong it's sad,
people shouldn't be shy to say they want to make friends. There used to be
institutions and venues that made it natural for people to bump onto each
other again and again (from the church to the pub to the barber), then modern
life, competition and individualistic culture came along and now people only
listen to their i-pods. It seems to me that this is a transitory (lonely)
period until we find our new social venues.

------
jakeonthemove
I think part of what makes it harder to make "true friends" when you're older
is that everyone is more independent and it takes a lot of work to get a
person to consider you for a true friend.

What I mean is, when you're in high school and college, everything just seems
bigger, and any help from anyone counts _a lot_. Helping someone pass the
exams, get a girlfriend, restore their dad's car (which they wrecked :-) can
be instant reasons for that person to start considering you a true friend, and
that sticks around for a looong time.

When you're an adult, you support yourself, and it takes much more to get to
that point: heck, I don't even know what it would take to make a best friend -
help him/her get out of jail, get a green card, buy a house or something?

Everything else are just little things that don't count for much in the minds
of most adults...

------
SoftwareMaven
I wasn't very good at making friends as a kid or a college student. I think
some combination of my natural introversion and moving 50+ times before
graduating high school combined such that I never really learned how to move a
relationship from "acquaintance" to "real friend". Adding in "real life" (eg
jobs, significant others, children, etc) makes it just that much worse.

Social networks have actually made things worse for me. It is a constant
reminder that other people manage to have these close relationships and I'm on
the outside looking in.

I'm still looking for the "make a friend" startup that actually works. :)

------
coffeemug
Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra. - <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok>

Do things that challenge you with other people, and you'll have no trouble
making friends. Play it safe, and friends will be hard to come by.

------
bmac27
Sorry, I don't agree with the premise of this piece. I'm finding it easier to
make connections and friends since I've left school and the place I grew up.
Are these BFF-type connections? Not yet since they haven't had the time to
really flourish. But with time, I anticipate they will since we share common
goals & interests. When you're in your teens/early 20's, you're at the mercy
of a small pool of individuals (classmates, neighbors, people in town) that
you may have absolutely nothing in common with other than sharing the same
space or a passing interest in the same music, tv show etc. These passing
commonalities aren't indicative of a friendship that will last.

Maybe I've just always been pickier about who I've associated with. I don't
know.

I also think it's got the vibe of one of those pieces that make you feel
guilty for getting older, i.e. the nonsense of entrepreneurial "peak ages"

~~~
saraid216
There's definitely an inverse effect in the "when you grow up, move out, and
search around on the Internet, you'll find Your People" phenomenon. Not sure
that's exactly what you're referring to, so maybe there's a third one.

Do note: the article provides several anecdotes to your one. :)

------
jedberg
Wasn't there a movie with Paul Rudd based on this premise?

~~~
m0th87
"I Love You, Man." Good movie.

------
rdtsc
I have been thinking about this as well. I often wonder that it is not only my
friends that I got pickier, as the article suggests, but I also changed,
became more withdrawn, more introverted, and thus maybe less fun to be around.

Then of course there is the problem of time. That coupled with priorities,
make it very hard to balance friends with family with career. After having
children, I just want to spend more time with them than making friends, even
though I might say that "yes, having more and better friends would be nice" my
daily actions and attitudes probably don't reflect that.

I have also realized that being friends with co-workers doesn't work. They
switch jobs or there is often competition for the same bonus pool, same cool
projects and this turns things sour

------
jroseattle
The article is spot-on, but I'd boil it down another way: relationships are
investments. Investments in time, emotional availability, mental state, etc.
And financial, depending on the circle you run in.

When we're young, we have things like time and emotional state and such
available in quantity, so we can form those relationships. As we get older,
those things start to dwindle in supply. As such, our mental ROI for
relationships formed later in life needs to be higher in order for us to make
that investment.

I'm much more interested in quality relationships now than I was in my younger
days. Quantity is easy to come by, but the really great ones are just harder
to come by nowadays.

------
danso
I know this answer might get looked down on here, but I've made a few good
friends thanks to FB. The OP is right that it's harder to make commitments to
new friendships...and that starting step is so energy-demanding that you'll
more often than not skip it as an adult. But FB allows for some low-energy
engagement...this often leads to shallow acts of friendship but allows you to
passively attract acquaintances who share the same interests without you
having to call them...because when would you ever just call up an acquaintance
to find out more about them?

~~~
gcr
If passively sharing engagement with people who share similar interests is the
only point, I think HN is the logical conclusion down that road of thought.

------
akkartik
This adds something to <http://www.paulgraham.com/todo.html>. The dying would
like to not just have kept in touch with friends, but also to have made more
of them. PG's edit captures the generalization, but I hadn't noticed that
before.

------
spiredigital
My wife and I were recently joking the other day starting a match-making
service for couples. But instead of matching single guys with single girls,
you'd be matched via the interests and personality of your counterpart in
another couple! Finding couples were everyone is a good fit is much harder
than finding compatible 1-on-1 relationships, like the article mentions.

I think the outcome of such a service would be great when successful, but I
don't think many people would feel comfortable with the process. I know I
wouldn't...

------
thedillio
In hindsight, I realize that I took the relationships in my life for granted
when i was younger because I always had an abundance of them in high school
and college.

Back then I was very involved in church, went on ski trips, camping trips,
kayaking, and participated in weekly extracurricular activities. Friends were
just around all the time.

Also looking back, all of my good memories are people an experiences, not
money, projects, or things - all of which education and the real world focus
you on.

Now that I'm 28 and have a family, it is difficult to spend time with friends
- even the ones with families as well. Everyone has jobs and lots of other
commitments.

By now most of my college friends have moved away and even the ones that
haven't I rarely see.

These days I make a conscious effort to attend anything I possibly can with
friends, and it certainly helps.

My point is that if there are any high school/college aged people reading my
advice is that you take advantage of every opportunity with friends now. Focus
on quality and quantity of relationships. If you have a choice between a "B"
on a project if you go out with friends and an "A" if you stay home and study,
pick the former. The relationships you build will be far more useful to you in
life that getting the "A."

Not saying all the fun stops, it just becomes less sporadic and further
between visits with friends.

The reason I am saying all of this is because I wish someone would have told
it to me...not that I would have listened anyway.

------
MicahWedemeyer
So the woman keeping score: Would she accept herself as a friend? Is she a
perfect 100? Or perhaps a 99, since she forgets to wish people a happy
birthday on Facebook sometimes...?

If I find out my friends or acquaintances are scoring me, that's an automatic
-100 in my friend ledger.

------
Lambent_Cactus
At this point they're just trolling the "The [New York] Times Is On It"
twitter feed: <https://twitter.com/NYTOnIt>

~~~
mturmon
Thanks for that. NYT lifestyle stories can be so dreadfully middle-of-the-road
(while taking their subjects oh-so-seriously).

------
kingkilr
I'm 21 and having just moved across the country for a job this isn't
resonating with my life so much, since I already had a lot of friends where I
am. But looking back, it's pretty clear that 90% of my parents' good friends
came from two categories: people they'd known since college, and parents of me
or my sisters' friends.

I think the expected reaction to this is to be afraid of it, especially given
I don't make friends very easily my best friends today are all people I've
known since elementary school, and already I'm only in contact with a handful
of people from college. But somehow I find it reassuring, my takeaway is that
if I work at it I can stay good friends with all of these people, and maybe
that'll be enough. Plus someday I'll have kids and hopefully their friends
will have nice parents, I know my parents are as good friends with my friends'
parents as I am with them (wow that's a badly written sentence!).

------
kellishaver
Making friends as an adult can certainly be difficult, although I do think
some of it may be self-inflicted. I find that I definitely am one to prefer
quality over quantity, so a lot of times, I just don't go looking for new
friends. The last time I did, I happened to get lucky. The last new friend I
made was almost exactly a year ago, but in that year, he's become one of the
best friends I've ever had.

He's an HN regular, so maybe he's reading this and will chime in and offer his
view on the subject. :)

For me, there are all sorts of practical reasons, but a lot of it just boils
down to the fact that there aren't a lot of people around me that I share
common interests with. So most of my lasting adult relationships have started
as online acquaintances that grew into real, meaningful, "offline" friendships
(that's also how I met my husband 16yrs ago).

------
chewxy
While I echo the sentiments of many people here, I don't think that it should
be difficult to make friends with people. Granted, we being full blown adults
have lives that probably doesn't involve roaming around in clubs and meeting
people.

I mean, I had problems making friends. I even started a website to throw
dinner parties for strangers (<http://strangersfordinner.com>), but it turns
out it was the willingness to make friends that... made friends.

Since starting the site, I've been to more meetups and dinner parties than I
could care to count. I recently introspected and realized that it wasn't the
tool, rather it was my own willingness to be more social that caused it.

That said, I still think I am pretty much a loner. So, yea still working on it

------
zem
something hinted at but not made explicit is the relentless filling of your
calendar as you get older. it's simply harder than ever to get together with
people on short notice, which is one of the major ways of nurturing nascent
friendships.

~~~
twoodfin
I agree, and I think there's an opening here for a social networking app. The
way I've always imagined it, you and your friends would feed in your free
time, activity preferences, which "friends" you actually enjoy spending time
with... The back end would be something like a constraint solver combined with
a recommendation engine. It would suggest events either independently or
triggered by a user: "I'm feeling bored tonight. Does anyone I know want to do
anything? Preferably within walking distance of my apartment." That triggers
some notifications to check if there's any consensus for a get-together.

The idea is that it's a lot of work and noise to spam all your friends
whenever you've got a few free hours, especially since only a small subset of
them are likely to be free on short notice. And planning any kind of outing
can be a real headache when you have to either accomodate everyone's
schedules/preferences or actively exclude them.

You could even monetize it by sponsoring suggestions: "Three of your college
friends are interested in getting Mexican tonight. Join them and get 10% off
at José's. Want to go?"

~~~
gcr
Ignoring the spam and the established conventions, that sounds just like the
idea behind facebook's news feed when used on an account only connected to
friends you like.

You even pratctically verbatim quoted their sponsored targetted ads.

~~~
zem
well, you could just use a mailing list. my local meetup group does that with
great success.

------
jscn
It seems like the article is talking about close, meaningful friendships as
though they're the only kind[1]. But you'd be lucky to have a handful of such
friendships over a lifetime. Most friendships will be based on mutual-
advantage or simple pleasure. (Nothing wrong with that, and they shouldn't be
dismissed.)

All the subjects in the article are very concerned with what they need, what
they want. I think it's telling that they don't voice concern over whether
they might be capable of being such a friend to someone else.

\---

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philia>

------
impendia
Anyone for whom this story seriously hits home, but who has success stories to
share?

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pehrlich
Where's summer camp for adults?

~~~
slig
Backpacking to Europe.

~~~
neves
and don't forget to sleep in a Hostel

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justinhj
I'm very surprised the article doesn't mention marriage as big difficulty in
making new friendships. I find it easy to find people with the same interests
as me that I get along with, but they also have to have partner that's
compatible with you and your partner.

Of course YMMV.

~~~
cpeterso
You must not have read page 2 which directly addresses couples.

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justinhj
Oops, you're right. I see the article talks about it briefly but I think it's
a fundamental point. Also bringing in opposite sex friends is another huge
issue, which is probably another article in itself.

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jlgreco
There has got to be a writing style rule somewhere out there that says you
should not capitalize the entirety of a word at the beginning of an article if
doing so forms a common acronym. It took me almost a solid minute to make
sense of that first sentence.

~~~
moron
That acronym in the New York Times would be "I.T.", not "IT".

~~~
jlgreco
Yeah, I realized that after I realized that it was saying "It".

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kokey
I've moved around a lot, and in between countries too. Making friends when you
are older gets harder, and if there is a culture difference it gets even
harder. That said, I've also gotten better at it over the years. You see this
sort of thing in people who have spent big chunks of their life as an expat.
There are also places around the world that have a lot of English speaking
expats around, where it's fairly easy to make friends. These friendships
aren't all long lasting, and you only manage to keep a fraction of the friends
you have made in a new location. That said, you do value good friendships a
lot more and will make the extra effort to travel to see these people.

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mooreds
I've found that joining clubs (either informal, like the climbing club I was a
member of) or formal (like the Odd Fellows or Masons or Kiwanis) is a great
way to meet friends. You still have to deal with the time issues, but at least
you don't have tensions of work--and as a plus you get to meet people with
different types of employment and age.

However, the main issue is that when you are in college and your early 20s,
you tend have gobs of time to make friends--once you hit a certain age (or
marital status or child status) other activities come first. Might as well
celebrate the closeness with your family or your work achievements as kvetch
about the difficulty of making friends.

I'm in my mid 30s.

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InclinedPlane
I definitely got lucky by falling into a community of folks that has made it
easy for me to find friends. I suppose it helps that I live in a very geek-
centric town as well (seattle). If I had any advice it would be this: find
something you're interested in and join a group or a class about it,
volunteer, and attend conventions (games, comics, etc.) Also, make the effort
to cultivate friendships with dinner parties and outings and board games and
such-like.

My life would be unimaginably different without the friends I've made, it's
very much worth the trouble to put effort into it.

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reinhardt
I don't really get much out of friendships. There, I said it. The desire, let
alone the need, to initiate and maintain such social rituals is simply not
there. The whole concept of connecting for connectedness sake without a
tangible goal to go after has always been foreign to me. Thankfully, growing
older makes it easier to hide one's lack of social bonds, needs and desires.

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vikas5678
I think this shows how important it is to have interests outside of work. Most
of my real friends are people I've met through shared interests, and earn less
money than me and it matters little. Pity is that most middle aged people have
little energy left in their lives to devote toward hobbies/self-improvement
after work, kids and whatever they call recreation.

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davidw
Well, that's a bit depressing. One of our good friends is leaving town to get
married, and we are indeed down in the dumps about it.

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codex
I've often wondered if an adult fraternity scheme would be practical. I
suppose this is why country clubs exist.

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richardjordan
I am sure it's a great article but NYTimes doesn't get my personal info just
so I'll log into their articles I am afraid.

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michaelochurch
Social life after college is broken. This isn't a complaint. I'm OK with
things as they are, but probably because I'm pretty introverted and also
because, after years of getting used to cynical networking being the norm, I'm
as much a part of the problem as anyone else.

We have too much income and social stratification in this country. It's
starting to become unreasonable and lead to unexpected adults, including the
impoverishment of social life. We have a society based on climbing and
positioning and maintaining ground, and that causes a lot of these problems.
People don't realize that when they live in gated communities, they've
essentially taken up a mentality that confines them to isolation, because once
you start to conclude that most people are undesirable and need to kept away,
you become cynical and just starting rejecting people for ludicrous reasons,
until you end up alone because no one (not even you, if you evaluated yourself
honestly) can meet your high standards.

Socially, college was better because a 3.2 English major and a 3.9 math major
could eat at the same table and attend the same activities. I didn't even know
most of my friends' GPAs. It didn't matter. That enabled a certain diversity
of thought that doesn't exist in the adult world.

~~~
praxulus
I believe organized religion used to sustain social lives for adults, and
still does in many parts of the country. Tight-knit communities have been
disrupted by economic development and urbanization, but even in a big city you
can get to know the people in your congregation very well.

~~~
gnaritas
Which is a problem for sane people who can't fit into such organized
superstition.

~~~
angersock
Tell me, do you prefer vim or emacs?

Own any Apple products?

~~~
anonymous
I use both vim and emacs. It keeps things fun. One day I'm a vim hacker, the
next - an emacs guru. It keeps things fresh and interesting.

Not enough money for apple products and don't need any.

