
An American Uprising - omarchowdhury
https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/an-american-uprising-george-floyd-minneapolis-protests
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rayiner
The MLK quote the article leads with isn’t always out of context when invoked
to talk about the rioting, but it is here. The gist of MLK’s point was that
riots are, even if understandable, still unjustifiable and counter-productive.
Whereas the view expressed in the rest of the article is something along the
ones of: “why are you talking about property damage when someone lost his
life?” Whatever this view has going for it, it’s inconsistent with what MLK
said (and more largely, what he stood for). But MLK said that the police
brutality needs to be condemned equally to the rioting. He didn’t say to
ignore the rioting.

I come from a country that exists because we were able to violently overthrow
our oppressors. Our problem of being second class citizens in our own country
was decisively solved with guns. But MLK keenly recognized that this course of
action was not on the table for African Americans in the United States,
regardless of how justified or not it may be. Attempts to justify the violence
ignore this sobering lesson.

~~~
happytoexplain
Short of killing or permanently injuring people or destroying residences, I
think the riots are morally justified, but they may not be practically
justified. However, even the practical non-justification is becoming uncertain
at this point, considering just how extreme and long-lasting the originating
problem has become, how desperately severe it is, and how it has worsened.

~~~
mc32
I don’t see how it’s morally justified except with very narrow scope.

Riots for the most part affect people who had nothing material to do with
whatever the complaint is. They’re virtually bystanders. It’s like the guy who
has a legit complaint against his boss and decides “the whole office is gonna
pay!”

How have things worsened since the MLK days? Of course there is injustice and
lots we could do for fellow Americans to give people an equal opportunity at a
decent life, but I can’t imagine opportunity has gotten worse?

Instead of rebuilding the Middle East or cruising through North Africa the
previous decade, we could have ploughed that money into American citizens’
well-being and progress. We also have homelessness in addition to the above.

~~~
runarberg
> _Riots for the most part affect people who had nothing material to do with
> whatever the complaint is_

This is an interesting point that should be addressed. I’m not sure I’m the
most qualified, but I’ll try.

Imagine you are trying to claim insurance on something but the insurance
company has denied you. You believe you have rights to your claim but the only
option they gave you is to call a phone number where an anonymous operator
answers. They can only tell you the facts of the matter, and not transfer you
up to a person with authority to revise the claim. What do you do? Do you get
angry and direct your anger towards the operator, or do you calmly hang up,
swear to your self for a day or two, and then forget about it? The first
option is a normal human response, that most of us will do.

Now bump up the stakes by a million, and imagine you are a part of a minority
that has received systematic injustice for decades. You are told you have the
option to try to affect the system from within, elect the right officials, get
legislation through, etc. But at this point you believe it has been tried for
too long and it doesn’t work. Now something happens that makes you angry and
really your only option at this point (outside of taking things silently and
accepting how things are) is to direct your anger straight at the system, but
the only face of the system that is doing all this injustice are storefronts
and institutions in your downtown area. The natural (and the only real choice)
is to smash it.

See looting is not just understandable action towards this injustice, it is
also the _natural_ response. And at this point, the _only_ response.

~~~
mc32
Like I said above. It sounds like one trying to justify a person aggrieved by
a boss and HR does nothing, boss doubles down, gets demoted -maybe it’s been
relentless and one day they snap and they figure the whole office is going to
pay.

Sure he was caged in, no one heard him, he got ridiculed.

As a society we don’t condone those outbursts no matter the self
justification.

~~~
runarberg
I’m not sure what you are getting at here. Has the employee been severely
bullied this whole time? Has the boss physically attacked the employee? Is all
the office aware that this is going on (and some even take the employee’s
side)? And is the response to throw down computers and roll over desks?

If the answer to all of those questions are “yes”, then—as a society—we
absolutely condone this outburst, and might even help the employee get legal
justification in the process.

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JasonFruit
If anyone's interested, the track with Big Floyd and DJ Screw is on YouTube:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv2bBdbvF20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv2bBdbvF20)

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SpicyLemonZest
I think this article, like much analysis I've seen, is unreasonably optimistic
about the long-term prognosis of riots.

> Target will reopen. The stores will reopen. That’s assured.

It's not assured! In the riots of the 60s, many neighborhoods didn't see the
stores reopen and took decades to recover. Multiple days of rioting is an
existential threat to a neighborhood. Maybe that's a price worth paying, but
you've got to own it, not pretend sustained looting is a temporary
inconvenience.

~~~
philwelch
And that’s on top of the pandemic, mass unemployment, and the long-term
downturn in brick and mortar retail.

~~~
emusan
Everything is fine, the S&P500 is nearly back to its all-time high again.

(/s)

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barretts
We talk about the lessons of 1968. What does that period of unrest really
teach us? It led to the election of Nixon.

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almost_usual
I really think humanity is near checkmate in the battle against elite wealth.
It will be complete when AI and automation render most of us obsolete.

Any battle against a militarized police force will be more hopeless than it
already is.

~~~
peteretep
Elite wealth is not a homogenous unit. The Magna Carta wasn’t a win for the
little guy, it was a win for the rich and powerful against someone a bit more
rich and powerful.

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ojhughes
I remember the England riots in 2011 were strongly opposed by most people I
know. I am surprised how much support these riots appear to have on social
media. Rioting is a terrible, violent act.

~~~
DanBC
> Rioting is a terrible, violent act.

So is being murdered by paramilitary police forces.

People tried peaceful protest and nothing changed.

~~~
ojhughes
Yeah in the U.K. we generally have decent police so I am biased in that
respect. Still strongly believe rioting is never the answer

