
Microsoft introduces Windows 10 X for dual-screen devices - aminecodes
https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/02/microsoft-introduces-windows-10-x-for-dual-screen-devices/
======
asenna
For people saying dual screen is a gimmick, have you not wanted to replicate
multi-screen setup on your laptop (while traveling or when not on your
desktop)? Power users have always wanted more screen real estate!

I've been eyeing the Asus Zenbook Pro Duo[1] ever since they've been announced
(currently using a Macbook Pro 2015). I usually carry around an Asus portable
second screen for my laptop in my backpack and this dual screen laptop trend
is exactly what I wanted! I'm definitely upgrading to a dual screen option
next.

Although I have no hope from Apple, I'm still waiting to see what the next MBP
iteration would be. All they need to do is stretch that stupid touchbar enough
to be a respectable second screen.

[1] - [https://www.asus.com/Laptops/ZenBook-Pro-Duo-
UX581GV/](https://www.asus.com/Laptops/ZenBook-Pro-Duo-UX581GV/)

~~~
dmix
I'm happy to see that Asus managed to find a way to keep the Escape key even
while taking up way more space than Touchbar. Apple has no excuse.

Still I'd personally rather use efficient tiling software + tabbing between
spaces than have to look down at distractions. I'm amazed no major OS
developer has tried to deliver this as an advanced mode. It's the type of
thing that would benefit from direct OS integration.

Most of the MacOS tiling software have occasional awkward moments with Spaces
and fullscreen mode.

~~~
augustl
I've never been more happy with a desktop environment than when I used i3.

The sloppy window management in macOS combined with the scarce selection of
laptops (of which none are really good in my opinion) has led me to try win10
as my development environment.

i3-like on Windows would have been great!

~~~
pitaj
You may want to check out FancyZones

[https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/blob/master/src/modul...](https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/blob/master/src/modules/fancyzones/README.md)

~~~
keymon-o
Not a full feature i3-like software, but I was amazed how it implements almost
all features I like about i3.

[https://www.workspacer.org/](https://www.workspacer.org/)

It was mentioned in a FancyZones thread a few months ago.

~~~
hoistbypetard
Thank you for pointing that out. I have to use Windows 10 often enough to wish
for something like that, and had been looking, but FancyZones was the closest
I'd found yet.

------
kbumsik
It reminds me how the first Surface Pro looked like.

It was incomplete and useless device so it didn't go well. However, Microsoft
didn't give up. After three iterations Microsoft finally made Surface Pro 3,
which was the first useful Windows tablet with a cleverly designed keyboard
and a great 3:2 ratio screen. The surface line finally took off and third-
parties began to make "surface-like" products since then.

Microsoft is not like Apple. They don't make perfect products at the
beginning, but they eventually nailed it after some iterations (I know they
still have software issues though.) So I will wait and see what Microsoft will
make in the next generations.

~~~
JadeNB
> Microsoft is not like Apple. They don't make perfect products at the
> beginning

For example, perfect butterfly keyboards.

~~~
llampx
The amount of bellyaching about the MacBook keyboard is the exception that
proves the rule.

~~~
jbigelow76
The current AppleTV remote is garbage too, Apple Watch Series 0, how many rule
proving exceptions do they get? Shall we segue into iOS 13...

------
Abishek_Muthian
I'm liking the direction laptop makers are taking by differentiating at
hardware level especially with displays, Asus has multiple dual display
laptops and now Microsoft's surface lineup. With WindowsX partnership, this is
going to kick off a slew of multi-display computing devices.

But as a non-windows user, I'm wondering what these hardware specific Windows
changes are going to do to the Linux ecosystem. I'm sure, display output to
these multiple displays would likely work OOB; but the availability of an app
ecosystem which can make use of these dual displays offering unique
productivity advantages would be questionable.

~~~
Aardappel
Want to "innovate" in laptop screens? How about giving us our 4:3 laptop
screens back? Or (drool) 5:4 ?

Most content (web pages, documents, code) is longer than it is wide, so any
more square ratio is going to be an improvement over these silly "movie" ratio
16:9 screens. MS's 3:2 ratio screens are an improvement, but.. we can do more!

Hell, I'd <insert "shut up and take my money" meme> LOVE a 1:1 screen on a
laptop! Imagine a 15" diagonal 1:1 screen, which would be as wide as a current
12" laptop or so, just a ton taller. Anything with text on that would be
glorious.

~~~
mhermher
The screens get wobbly at that point. I think 3:2 is pretty good.

~~~
protomyth
I liked 3:2 because it is close to the IMAX ratio.

------
zokier
Considering that Windows has been supporting multiple displays for what, 20
years now, it feels bit odd to make that the headline feature

~~~
deckar01
Windows multi-display functionality has regressed with packet based display
protocols. Turning Display Port monitors off with their power button is a
nightmare. All of your windows get squished down to so tiny size and moved
over to one monitor. They won't fix it, because they consider it a power user
use case that should be solved by leaving everything on or turning the entire
computer off. There is an entire after market of hardware hacks built just to
trick Windows into thinking the monitor is still connected.

~~~
berti
And then when you bring a KVM switch into the mix... sometimes it works well,
the rest of the time it does what you described, or just gives up and decides
there are no monitors until you replug them.

------
ToFab123
The Duo is the Android phone.

I am one of these weirdos that has been waiting patiently for many years for
Microsoft to release a new phone and would have been first in line to buy one,
until I received this news.

There is just no way I am going to buy a Android that broadcast everything
back to Google. Microsoft have completely missed the ball on this one. At
least towards the Microsoft users that are not comfortable with sending
everything towards Google.

Windows 10X on the other hand sounds like an amazing OS. I would have loved to
see that on the phone (with android app support to get the app ecosystem
going), instead we get a two screen device with a huge bezel in the middle so
the screens cannot appear as 1 screen.

I am sorry Microsoft, but my money stays in my pocket.

~~~
PostOnce
You're happier broadcasting everything back to Microsoft? What's the
difference?

~~~
ToFab123
Yes, I have no issues with transmitting my digital life back to Microsoft. I
have done so since I got my first Hotmail count 20+ ago. Since then, my
digital life has in one form or another been connected with Microsoft
Services.

I have never felt Microsoft has abused this trust I have given them. I have
never thought that they have used my information for purposes I am not
comfortable with.

I have this thing against advertisement agencies. I don't trust them. I felt
the same even before Google was there even before my life became digital. It
is not something new that I try to limit the information I give to
advertisement agencies.

Edit: spelling

~~~
PostOnce
Microsoft sells ads, too. They're integrating them into Windows. Microsoft
sells everything that Google sells and more.

If Microsoft could have grown Bing as big as Google by doing everything Google
did that you distrust, they absolutely would have done so. They would have
done it with Windows Phone, too. And they still will, if they can, eventually.

I'm not here to start an argument, just to suggest you re-examine your
loyalties if you think Microsoft isn't going to screw you if it makes them $5.

~~~
ToFab123
I don't want to start the argument either and you are also right. They would
do exactly as Google has they been in the same situation.

Like so many here, I also wonder, why they don't become more like Apple in
terms of privacy.Google would have no answer if Microsoft was a privacy-first
company.

------
Beltiras
I think this is the Microsoft release on it [1]. I refuse to accept Oath
cookies.

[1] [https://blogs.windows.com/devices/2019/10/02/surface-
reveals...](https://blogs.windows.com/devices/2019/10/02/surface-reveals-new-
holiday-lineup-and-introduces-a-new-category-of-dual-screen-devices-built-for-
mobile-productivity/)

------
mc32
One thing I’m looking forward to in regular laptops is handling of change in
monitor hardware state when docking and undocking. It can take a while for the
system to figure things out, other times it’s a hard reset... all that said,
it’s handled better than mosx which has a frustrating relationship with
multiple external displays.

~~~
jedberg
> it’s handled better than mosx which has a frustrating relationship with
> multiple external displays.

I have two external displays, one over thunderbolt and one HDMI, and the Mac
seems to have no trouble putting my windows where they belong whether I'm on
just the laptop screen, just one external monitor or both.

What I've found though is the trick seems to be to make sure you have all your
monitors plugged in _before_ you log in. I always make the monitor changes
when my laptop is locked.

~~~
GordonS
This works well enough for me on Windows 10, but I have similar issues to you
with MacOS

------
ohbleek
If you think there isn’t a market for a dual screen device, step into a med
school or any professional school. Half of my classmates carry around two
devices specifically to have a second screen for referencing videos, notes,
articles, etc... personally I can’t wait to get the neo. I have a 15” surface
book 2 and it’s served me well but I would love a second screen with the same
versatility of my sb2.

------
summerlight
Some HN users are denying, but the recent trends definitely shows that most
users values screen real estate a lot. The only problem here is that screen
size and device form factor has been physically coupled to each other so you
cannot have a useful phone with 13 inches screen. While MS' solution is not
the most elegant one, but now technological advances on flexible screen makes
it possible to de-couple them.

I'm pretty sure that MS is looking forward to using this technology, but also
wants to get into the market as soon as possible. It'll be interesting to see
what kinds of new form factors MS will bring into the market in coming years;
they have been pretty innovative in this area.

------
chasing
The dual screens look like a marketing gimmick in search of an actual use...

~~~
holy_city
I disagree, screen real estate is precious.

~~~
kube-system
Which I agree with -- but the device they're showing it off on looks pretty
cramped for screen real estate. It has two 9" screens. If we guess those are
16:9 displays, that's about 69 square inches of space... which is actually a
few square inches smaller than a single 13" display of the same ratio. (72
square inches)

------
fidz
Ah, finally we can have 10x developer by developing for Windows 10 X

------
bschne
This just reminded me that SideShow was a thing in Vista times:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_SideShow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_SideShow)

~~~
pedrocx486
English link:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_SideShow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_SideShow)

~~~
bschne
Thx, edited.

------
tvanantwerp
Meanwhile, I'm still dealing with random scaling bugs from connecting external
monitors with lower pixel density to my high pixel density Surface Pro
devices. Only thing that really "fixes" it is setting a custom scaling factor
of 100% and reducing the Surface's resolution to make it still readable. (Then
I end up with black bars along the edges, as the lower resolution options
aren't the same 3:2 aspect ratio as the native resolution...)

This has been a many-years struggle and I wish Windows would get this right
first. Never had the same kind of problems with macOS.

~~~
com2kid
Do this daily, it should work fine.

Are you cloning the display? That'll require scaling of some type.

If you want to only use the external display that should work fine, if you
"close" the Surface it should be smart enough to not go to sleep and instead
to just route everything to the external screen.

If you are extending, then Windows 10 has supported monitors with different
DPI scaling factors for awhile as well. The option isn't that apparent. Right
click desktop, display settings, you can select a monitor and set the DPI
scaling on that particular display.

If you are cloning the Surface's display to an external, then yeah, you'll
have a hard time about it. High DPI + different aspect ratio.

~~~
tvanantwerp
It's extending while still using the Surface screen, and it does automatically
get the DPI correct. Used to have issues with specific programs, some bits
comically large and some comically small. That seems to have stopped, but the
latest bug I've been dealing with involves a white bar along the top of one of
the external monitors (always the left one, oddly) about an inch thick that
renders that part of the screen unusual. Custom DPI of 100% for all monitors
is the only thing that makes that stop. Seen it for two or three users out of
~35 so far.

I'll say that the scaling problems have overall improved and most of the time
it works. But it still breaks randomly and often enough that I notice.

------
ocdtrekkie
Microsoft is showing true commitment to their new OS for dual-screen devices,
by only putting it on one of their new dual-screen devices.

I think it's really weird they didn't talk even slightly how 10 X will fit
into the Windows family down the road. I guess it's a hardware event, but
everything Microsoft has been held back by the software lately, so that's
really what I want to hear about.

------
billziss
I would much prefer it if manufacturers created a multi-screen setup with
screens next to each other. I can imagine some form of folding or attachment
mechanism that converts a single screen laptop to dual or triple screen. Since
going "laptop only" many years ago the thing I miss the most is the multi-
monitor setup that I used to have and would love it if I was eventually able
to recreate this with my laptop.

The idea of a second screen above the keyboard does not appeal to me. I have a
Macbook Pro with a touch bar and in general I dislike it (even though I have
written a custom dock for it, which allows me to reclaim some main screen real
estate from the macOS Dock). I understand that this new MSFT screen is bigger
and potentially more useful, but the problem of having to look down on the
second screen above the keyboard would still be there.

(I am aware of macOS Sidecar.)

~~~
datagram
> I can imagine some form of folding of attachment mechanism that converts a
> single screen laptop to dual or triple screen.

Razer is working on exactly this: [https://www.razer.com/project-
valerie](https://www.razer.com/project-valerie)

~~~
billziss
Thank you. This looks exactly like what I had in mind.

EDIT: Another alternative would be to be able to slide the main screen halfway
to the side thus allowing a second screen next to it for a dual screen setup.

------
someonehere
I don’t understand the appeal but if there’s a market for it, it must be
somewhere I never thought to look.

~~~
mattnewport
I use my Surface with a pen running OneNote as a notebook quite a bit. The
main use case for me is as my notebook in Farsi classes but I think it would
work well in most classroom situations where you want to take freeform digital
notes and perhaps mix them with sketches. When using it as a notebook the
keyboard is folded away and having a second screen could be useful, the most
obvious use case to me is having reference material on one screen while making
notes on the other.

The nice thing about the Surface is that you can use it as a full Windows
laptop as well and with the keyboard add on it looks like the Neo should work
for that as well. Given these devices are quite expensive but also very
portable it's nice to have that all in one functionality, particularly when
taking short work trips.

------
cryptozeus
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmaioTs0NH8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmaioTs0NH8)
@ 1:10:00 mark for tablet. I did not see the keyboard coming ! Great job
microsoft

------
qubex
I can’t help but think how prescient Micheal Okuda was when he designed the
flat, touchscreen-only LCARS (Library Computer Access and Retrieval System)
interfaces for _Star Trek: THe Next Generation_ that first aired way back in
1987, rationalising that he was looking to create a visual style which implied
a simplified, abstract system of controlling vastly complex processes in a
user-friendly, high-level manner. 32 years on flat GUIs and touchscreen-
everywhere interfaces are closing in on his vision. Truly remarkable.

~~~
tinus_hn
The main advantage for Star Trek though was that this kind of device is really
easy on the prop department. It’s just a plane of smoke glass with lights
shining through a cutout, easy to add the button of the week.

------
al2o3cr
Was there any specific mention of the device's thickness? The photos look like
each side is about the same as a typical tablet, which would make this thing a
pretty chonky boi when folded...

~~~
naikrovek
5.6mm per side, I think? Might have been 5.4mm.

Each side can be an inch thick, I don't care, as long as the battery lasts a
while.

------
losthobbies
The courier!

------
cma
> So while a regular PC will boot up and immediately run all of the services
> necessary to run a Win32 application, for example, Windows 10X won’t load
> this subsystem until it’s needed. This, the company argues, allows it to be
> very efficient with the resources available on the machine and extend its
> battery life significantly.

Hopefully they won't decide it is never needed.

~~~
throwaway8941
They have already tried this one. It didn't end well.

~~~
SomeOldThrow
What’s the killer app for win32?

~~~
Narishma
Everything that makes Windows worth using.

~~~
SomeOldThrow
Fwiw my question was not intended to be facetious and it may not be obvious
what makes Windows worth using.

------
smallbigfish
I like those pictures. They only show the two hands that are holding the
device. The third hand touching the screen is missing.

~~~
buboard
I believe u re supposed to use your nose

~~~
belltaco
Emacs users are ready.

------
d--b
That looks quite inconvenient. I think it'd have been better if the screen
could be unhinged, and only held together by a cable. That way, I and someone
across the table could follow something on the same computer, but on a
different screen. In fact, if I could attach as many screens as I wanted,
that'd be pretty cool...

~~~
Spearchucker
So you want two devices that communicate via a network? Or one device with
muitiple monitors? Which are both already possible...

~~~
nkrisc
Of course it's already possible, but is it convenient? You're sitting at an
airport gate and want to show something to your travel partner on your device.
You unhinge the second monitor and hand it to them. That's what I envision
based on what they described, not sending them a WebEx link or trying to setup
some kind of screen share.

~~~
jdironman
If you're already in physical proximity of them there is no need for a webex
or any other remote connection. You just show them your screen.

~~~
nkrisc
That's not the point. The GP comment clearly referred to using the second
screen to share with someone nearby, such that two grown adults don't have to
huddle around a single screen, possibly sharing earbuds. If you know where
someone lives, why have a phone when you can send them a letter, right?

The point is, if you have two screens on your device, it would be useful to be
able to unhinge one (possibly still tethered) to make it more convenient and
comfortable for a second person to view what's on your device.

I would absolutely buy something like that for doing in person usability
testing with prototypes in settings outside a usability lab.

~~~
belltaco
This sounds like a solution for software rather than hardware. Everyone has a
smartphone. I would rather not have others handling my devices.

>I would absolutely buy something like that for doing in person usability
testing with prototypes in settings outside a usability lab.

This sounds like an extremely niche use case.

------
baybal2
I'm very surprised that Intel gave away Lakefield to Microsoft just for that.

Few Intel insiders I knew were talking about Lakefield as almost like a
"saviour" product for Intel waning consumer electronics marker appeal.

------
danlan
This gives me hope that the 10GUI concept[1] might finally become a reality

[1] - [http://10gui.com/video/](http://10gui.com/video/)

------
jdlyga
I'd love to have a dual screen tablet like that. One of the reasons I like
reading on an iPad is because you can tilt it horizontally and have two
screens of paper.

------
alexk7
The whole concept of OS integration across devices is a complete failure for
Microsoft. Calling this new thing a "new OS" sounds like a failure to fulfill
what the Windows brand used to mean: support across a large range of devices.
Isn't Windows already supporting multiple display? Maybe not in the "tablet"
sub-OS... which is clearly not up to the standard set by the "desktop" sub-OS.

Anyway, the only thing that keeps Windows relevant even today is its classic
Win32 API applications. Everything else they tried to do has always been half-
baked. I'm not optimist for the future of the platform.

~~~
enumjorge
Where are you getting that someone is calling this a "new OS"? From the
article:

> The company stresses that this is not a new operating system but takes
> Windows 10 as you know it today and makes it more adaptable to other form
> factors.

~~~
cjarrett
Definitely not the same OS as Desktop windows 10. It might run all the same
apps, however.

------
Steko
I'd be excited if the small indy company behind Windows 10 could figure out
how to stop putting all my windows on one monitor every time the machine
sleeps.

------
hootbootscoot
Where's the "start" menu? Find all the product managers since XP SP3 and send
them to work in the salt mines for an eternity or 3...

------
tibbydudeza
A Surface "Duo" phone running Microsoft tailored Android.

------
lone_haxx0r
Ok, now make it not shut itself down randomly for updates.

~~~
knd775
This doesn't happen. Tired meme.

------
shrthnd
Now how about Windows 10 for my Raspberry Pi?

~~~
jodrellblank
[https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/install-
windows-10-on-r...](https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/install-
windows-10-on-raspberry-pi,5993.html)

------
mensetmanusman
Would this let them emulate the switch?

------
Iv
And when will it support dual boot?

------
hootbootscoot
Dual-mouse dual pointer too?

------
agumonkey
remember the 2000s grand demo that never realized ? MS folio ?

------
Skunkleton
So Windows X X?

------
jonknee
Microsoft is using Android! Lauren Goode got a great quote from Satya on this
topic:

> When I asked Satya Nadella whether Microsoft ever thought about reviving a
> true Windows mobile OS, he told me: "The operating system is no longer the
> most important layer for us...What is most important for us is the app model
> and the experience."

[https://twitter.com/LaurenGoode/status/1179421631506210822](https://twitter.com/LaurenGoode/status/1179421631506210822)

Update: my apologies, this is for the _other_ dual screen device announced
today (lots of new products!). They are releasing an Android phone with a
similar hinge setup.

~~~
nradov
As long as Google owns the mobile OS, Microsoft will never be able to maintain
any significant control over the app model or user experience.

~~~
KingMachiavelli
Clearly Microsoft disagrees. They are putting tremendous effort into using
chromium for their new Edge browser so I would have to assume they would put
even more resources into customizing Android to their liking. Perhaps on a
technical level, chromium-Edge will 'feel' like any other chromium based
browser and android-Windows will 'feel' like any other Android based OS BUT
for normal & business users - there is a lot Microsoft could do to make
Android fit into a 'Microsoft/Windows'ecosystem. If it's at least partially
successful, I would expect them to start making their own UI
frameworks/libraries for developers to really distance the platform.

~~~
coldtea
> _Clearly Microsoft disagrees_

And clearly they are in the wrong, but they can't do anything about it anyway,
as their platform efforts on mobile faltered.

~~~
pjmlp
Sadly, as they gave up when they already had about 10% market share in Europe.

However Windows 10 tablets are winning the hearts of tablet users not willing
to pay for Apple experience, not Android tablets that usually only have
upscaled phone apps as option for most apps.

------
vidanay
Now we can all be 10 X developers!

~~~
djsumdog
Slightly off topic, but with Android going back to version numbers instead of
desert names, the next version will be Android 10 .. so we'll have Windows 10,
macOS X (10.something) and Android 10. Arguably, Apple has been in the 10 camp
longest.

Windows 10 X just sounds like reverse macOS (MacOS X 10.x)

~~~
umanwizard
Minor nitpick - macOS no longer has an "X" in its name. The latest version is
just macOS 10.14.6.

------
o_p
Nice, a phone with half battery duration! Honestly, whats the use for this?

