

Gondolas Could Be the Next Great Urban Transportation Device - sardonicbryan
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/11/austin-gondola/

======
oceanic
I saw the Rio de Janeiro gondola system [0] on Brazil with Michael Palin [1] a
couple of days ago, and spurred on by the fact I've always enjoyed travelling
on these systems, I began searching out more information about them around the
world. I found a fantastic (for transport wonks :-) website called the Gondola
Project [2] which has a vast amount of info (there's a link to it buried in
the OP Wired article) about all the different types of systems and which
circumstances they fit best. It also mentions the several aerial ropeway urban
transport systems that are in successful operation around the world, such as
Medellin, Colombia; Caracas, Venezuela [3]; Constantine, Algeria [4]; and
Villa Nova de Gaia, Portugal [5].

To the commenters here saying "why can't they just make huge suspended buses",
apart from the obvious engineering loads that entails, the problem is mostly
that this means the gondolas have to stop at each "station" so that a decent
amount of people can embark/disembark.

The most common modern gondola systems are built with MDG (monocable
detachable gondola) technology, though the state of the art is the 3S (or TDG
- tricable detachable gondola). More cables makes a 3S system more expensive,
but makes the gondolas much more stable in higher winds, and allows them to
travel faster along the line as well.

In these systems, many small gondolas flow in a continuous system, but are
detached from the cable and slowed at stations so people can embark/disembark.
This allows the main pull cable to always run at the same speed, which
conserves energy and keeps all other attached gondolas moving. It also allows
for corners (!) in the line (though a station must be located at the corner),
as gondolas can be detached at a station, moved around by the required angle
as they load/unload, and then reattached to the new cable which takes them off
in a new direction. For a good example of this, see the Rio de Janeiro system
mentioned above. Junctions can even be implemented this way if required
(though the logistics would be interesting).

Rescue issues – most of these urban systems are designed to run over
accessible areas, and no higher than 2-4 storeys from the ground, so if rescue
is needed Fire Department crews can use standard equipment to reach the
stranded gondolas.

Some commenters on the Wired article mention the Portland Aerial Tram system,
and various disappointments around it. Aerial trams are different from
gondolas in that there are normally only two cars, which move in opposite
directions simultaneously, so each must be stopped at the same time, and any
mid-point stations must be equidistantly located, unless you are happy having
one car stopped in mid-air while the other is at a station. For examples of
this with funicular railways, see the Innsbruck Hungerburgbahn [6] or the
Wellington (NZ) Cable Car [7]. The main limitations on this kind of transport
are slow load/unload times (hence longer passenger wait times), inflexible
station layout requirements, non-detachable gondolas means no cornering etc.

Someone mentioned the "scared of heights" issue – my partner is scared of
heights, but she was fine travelling on a gondola system similar to all these
at Taronga Park Zoo in Sydney, as well as on the Nordkettenbahnen, the aerial
tram in Innsbruck that takes off from the top of the Hungerburgbahn. Of
course, YMMV. A system that probably _isn't_ good for people with a fear of
heights is the new Stanserhorn Cabrio (stunning pic [8]) [9].

For (even more) info, The Gondola Project website has a big section called
"Learn about cable transit" - fascinating stuff [10].

[0] <http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/02/st_riogondola/>

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_with_Michael_Palin> (Episode 3: The
Road To Rio)

[2] <http://gondolaproject.com/>

[3] <http://gondolaproject.com/2010/03/11/medellincaracas-part-1/>

[4] [http://gondolaproject.com/2012/07/19/constantine-
telepheriqu...](http://gondolaproject.com/2012/07/19/constantine-telepherique-
celebrates-12-million-passengers-announces-2-more-lines/)

[5] [http://gondolaproject.com/2011/04/08/new-urban-gondola-
opens...](http://gondolaproject.com/2011/04/08/new-urban-gondola-opens-
portugals-teleferico-de-gaia/)

[6] <http://www.nordkette.com/en/cable-railways.html>

[7] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellington_Cable_Car>

[8] [http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24956/stanserhorn_cabrio-
opening_day...](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24956/stanserhorn_cabrio-
opening_day.jpg)

[9] <http://www.stanserhorn.ch/en/travel/cabrio/>

[10] [http://gondolaproject.com/learn-the-basics-what-is-cable-
pro...](http://gondolaproject.com/learn-the-basics-what-is-cable-propelled-
transit/)

~~~
praptak
_[...] most of these urban systems are designed to run over accessible areas,
and no higher than 2-4 storeys from the ground, so if rescue is needed Fire
Department crews can use standard equipment to reach the stranded gondolas._

This sounds like a design challenge for a built in rescue system. Rope
ladders, only somehow made much safer.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Chutes can go that far? You sit down, and scoot into a hole int he floor - the
tube-like chute extends from the car to the ground and provides drag

------
LeafStorm
A Siemens S70 LRV such as the ones used on the LYNX Blue Line in Charlotte,
NC, can hold 68 passengers sitting, 230 including standers. One train comes
every ten minutes peak, fifteen minutes off. This means we have a max capacity
of 1380 pphpd (passengers/hour/direction) peak, 920 pphpd off.

These gondolas look like they can hold a max of about six passengers, but
there's also a lot more of them. The article offhandly mentions a peak headway
of thirty seconds. This implies a max capacity of 720 pphpd peak. For the same
max capacity as current Blue Line service, we'd need to land a gondola every
15 seconds. The catch is that the Blue Line still has room to add trains, but
landing a gondola every 15 seconds is probably pushing it.

I was expecting this to turn out rather poorly in the gondolas' favor, but
considering the major advantages in capital cost, this actually doesn't look
too bad. And they do have a point about high-frequency services attracting
ridership. The main question is whether they can actually pull this off for
the stated capital costs, and whether the operations and maintenance costs
will come back to bite you later.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Gondolas, like elevated monorails and trains, have an unfortunate failure mode
which is 'stopped and trapped' so in the event the system has to stop,
everyone is 'trapped'. Back in pre-historic times when Disney ran their
'people mover' (which finessed the load/unload option quite well with the
moving platform, one load/unload every 10 seconds) they talked about systems
with excess cable such that in an emergency the gondolas could all lower to
the ground. But that is impractical in longer runs (the wire buffer needs to
be too long) and has its own issue if it lowers the gondolas in a non-
emergency situation.

The best things they have going for them are that you can easily re-use
existing right of way, and the per-mile implementation costs can be lower than
conventional light rail or subways.

My favorite system that was spec'd but never built was the Chicago PRT
(Personal Rapid Transit) which had four person 'cars' on a track that worked
like elevators. You pushed a button at the track and an empty car arrived, you
got in and punched your destination. It didn't have to stop until you got
there. That particular system had issues with the amount of computer power it
needed, although today it would be trivial to implement. If you can imagine
autonomous vehicles on a track with 'smart' switches, its a lot easier than a
self driving car.

~~~
anonymous
What if we added a rolled-up rope ladder inside each gondola? Also, if they
are laid over the existing road network, in the case of major failure you
could have the fire department rescue the people who can't climb down a ladder
on their own.

~~~
stcredzero
_> What if we added a rolled-up rope ladder inside each gondola?_

Many would find that terrifying, so would still be trapped.

------
drewda
As the transit planner Jarrett Walker regularly reminds readers on his blog[1]
and book of the same name, the real things that make a mass transit project
effective are not about the particular technology being used to do the moving.
The geometry of the network, its connections, and its schedule of service are
what actually make it usable.

[1] <http://www.humantransit.org>

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Getting it built should be added to that list. Gondola has an edge there.

~~~
chiph
The advantages that gondolas would have in Austin is the ability to easily
cross the lake and climb the hills. All without expensive rail lines (limited
to 2-3% grades) and eminent-domain seizures.

Although - having drunk people flying over your house during SXSW or Formula-1
weeks might not be attractive, because of uhh, biological contamination
reasons...

------
bsimpson
I was hoping they meant this kind of gondola:
<http://www.gondolas.com/images/gondola_main.jpg>

~~~
benzor
Indeed, before clicking the link I assumed it would be an op-ed covering
climate change and rising sea levels, which then goes on to argue that in the
future, flooded coastal cities would enlist gondolas (the waterborne kind) to
replace buses, like Venice.

~~~
riffraff
similarly, I expected a lengthy discussion of how water transport is more
efficient than ground one in terms of pollution and energy consumption (I
don't know if it is, I'd reckon it's not) and cities would be building water
canals everywhere.

------
patrickgzill
I fondly remember being able to go many places in Manila, Philippines, in the
downtown shopping/restaurant core, using only my feet - they had elevated
walkways to take you over the busy traffic and the malls were inter-connected.

You could walk for quite some time and never be at ground level. Most people
can walk 1 km extra per day and never notice losing any time, given the
savings in waiting for transit or getting into and out of a car.

~~~
dageshi
Same kind of thing in Hong Kong, you can cover large parts of Wan Chai and
Central without ever touching the ground. But I remember the opposite in
Japan, you could seemingly traverse long distances underground by going from
Subway station to Mall to another mall all underground.

~~~
IsaacL
You can do the same in Hong Kong - Tsim Sha Tsui is connected underground.

------
twelvechairs
The article only briefly mentions the major prototypes for gondolas as real
urban public transport. Medellin (Colombia) and Portland. Both were finished
2006. Before them, nobody considered gondolas as a real urban public
transportation option. Now they do, and there has been a proliferation of
interest (the recent line built in London, for one [not that it goes
anywhere]).

The advantages often mentioned by transport planners are their cheapness to
build and ability to traverse terrain easily (where trains and trams cannot).
More importantly perhaps - people like them. Its a much better ride to work
than on a subway or bus - thats for sure!

------
Tiktaalik
What about privacy issues?

Vancouver's transit authority has been discussing the possibility of replacing
the bus service to Simon Fraser University, which is on top of a mountain,
with a gondola, as in heavy snowfall conditions the bus can't handle the
roads. The main criticism of the scheme has been from property owners that
would be under the gondola line, as they would no longer have any privacy in
their own back yards.

Similarly if one had a downtown scheme, there would be the possibility of a
full gondola moving by your 10th floor window at all hours of the day.

~~~
mseebach2
You could design them with frosted windows or blinds that obstruct passengers
from looking at downwards angles, so they could still see the horizon and the
sky.

I think I've read about a train being build through a city somewhere, where
it'd pass close by residential buildings, but only briefly. This was solved by
installing "Smart glass" so they windows are obscured temporarily when going
past the buildings.

------
antiterra
Even only 15-20 feet off the ground, my instinct is that there's a fear factor
in riding aerial gondolas unlike any in urban rail.

~~~
aetherson
I'm sure you're right that some people will find them unusably terrifying, but
my experience is that most people with a typical level of fear-of-heights can
handle gondolae just fine. A friend of mine, for instance, refuses to ride on
a chair lift, but has no problem with a gondola.

~~~
arethuza
I've spent a lot of time on ski lifts over the years and I've had one occasion
where people had obvious problems with the height - we were on the Vanoise
Express between La Plagne and Les Arcs in the French Alps, which is a very
long, very large gondola. When we set off from the La Plagne side it was misty
so you couldn't really see how high up we were. However, half way across the
car emerged from the mist and the fact that the car was 380m up became very
clear - one person fainted and another had a very loud panic attack.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanoise_Express>

~~~
alexkus
From the Wiki page: "This closure effectively shut down Paradiski for that
season."

I skied in Vallandry that season staying right near Peisey-Vallandry where the
cable car station was.

If anything it made my skiing experience all the better as the resort was so
much quieter than normal. We still had a large ski area to use (Vallandry and
Les Arcs aren't small). Didn't care that we couldn't get over to La Plagne,
Vallandry/Les Arcs was still as popular resort before the Vanoise Express
existed.

------
fbpcm
Austin is quickly densifying but still doesn't have any public transit other
than buses.

This solution avoids all the pitfalls associated with conventional rails
(street level and underground) and I see it very rapidly becoming very
successful.

~~~
iamdave
_Austin is quickly densifying but still doesn't have any public transit other
than buses._

I'm a little worried about new transit here in Austin for that very reason.
Historically the city hasn't given me much faith to believe a new layer of
transit would be implemented well enough to (A) get people riding it and (B)
be remotely efficient.

Buses rarely sync up, you'll get off one bus just to see the transfer you need
to catch on the other side of the road pulling off, missing your bus means
getting to your final destination sometimes up to an hour late, the train only
services downtown and north, meaning anyone south of the river is boned for
rapid transit into the city...

I would absolutely love a new form of transit in Austin that was quick and
easy to use, but I'm skeptical on our ability to actually deliver it, given
our complacency with a rather poor and painful to use by system already in
place.

~~~
LeafStorm
Case in point: neither of you mentioned the Red Line, nor have I ever heard
any of my family members in Austin mention the Red Line.

~~~
iamdave
_the train only services downtown and north, meaning anyone south of the river
is boned for rapid transit into the city..._

I didn't mention it by name, but there it is in my post.

------
febeling
In my hometown Wuppertal, they had this since more than 100 years:

<https://www.google.com/search?q=schwebebahn+wuppertal>

Click on image search results.

~~~
liotier
The famous Wuppertal line is an aerial train - not gondolas on a cable. It is
clever and I loved riding it though - but it is a different type of system.

------
Shivetya
I wonder how they would fare in this litigious society we live in? Toss in
that the not stopping part would instantly bring up complaints under the ADA
(American Disabilities Act) in regards to the handicapped using them.

How do they fare in various types of weather? Are they heated and cooled?
Would each car be camera monitored? This would be to monitor the safety of the
people riding, for example if someone had a medical issue or was being
attacked.

No, while I like the idea I don't see how you implement the cars which can be
easily used by the handicap and that has caused all sorts of extravagant costs
in our local bus lines.

~~~
stcredzero
If the cars are detachable, could there be a provision for wheelchair riders
to get in their own car which could be attached to the cable?

------
jtchang
Is there any reason that a gondola can hold only a maximum of 6 passengers?
Can't you have a gondola the size of a bus?

Imagine all the crazy muni lines in sf turned into gondola wires. Would be
pretty awesome to be "flying" 15ft above all the traffic. Not to mention the
timing and schedule of service would be consistent.

~~~
joahua
The load/unload dwell time would impact the service's efficiency - sometimes
it's better to have more low density vessels than fewer large ones. It's
largely a function of the journey time, though.

------
stcredzero
Good article, but I had to use reader on Safari on the iPad. Wired should know
better than to disable zoom.

------
LukeShotFirst
And, lo, a thousand steam punk enthusiasts cried up with joy.

------
ams6110
This is flat out one of the most ridiculous ideas I have seen here in quite a
while.

------
gadders
This seems to come round every few years, and yet nothing ever comes of it.

See also Hypersonic jets that will fly at the edge of the earth's atmosphere
and do London to Sydney in two years.

//edit//That will teach me not to read the article. I thought this was about
airships.

