
Avow-CI Is No More - campuscodi
https://github.com/Fluidbyte/avow-ci/
======
reuven
As is often the case, the problem here could have been avoided if there had
been clearer and more open communication.

All this guy had to do was go to his employer and say, "Listen, you should
know that I'm working on an open-source project that is in the same ballpark
as what I'm doing at work. However, there is no shared code, a different
architecture, and the two don't even compete against one another. Plus, what
I'm doing is open source."

If his employer had said, "Yeah, go ahead -- no problem," then there wouldn't
have been a problem.

If his employer had said, "We're all in favor of open-source contributions and
projects, but not when they compete against our core products, from which we
make money," then they could have worked out a deal. Or not. But at least it
wouldn't have been left up in the air like this.

I definitely see a problem with an employee creating an open-source project in
the same space as his commercial, day job. While a cease-and-desist order is
pretty unpleasant, all they're saying is that he has to stop work on the
project. It could have been much worse, and much more expensive.

It also seems weird to me that while the former employee is saying he needs to
stop, he's letting others fork the code and keep going with it. If I were
interested in picking up an open-source project, I'd be hesitant to join one
in which there had been explicit legal threats against the original author.

~~~
aardvark179
There are a couple of interesting things in what the former employee says

1) He claims the commit logs are proof of when he did the work. They aren't,
they are simply proof of when he did the commits.

2) He says, "I worked on it in the evenings after I had completed my work for
the day." Which instantly makes me wonder whether he was doing this on a work
computer after hours?

If you want to do open-source work on an area related to your job you must
talk to your employer first, and whatever open source work you do you should
be sure you're either not using company resources or have permission to use
them. Commit logs cannot prove when you did the work, they can only prove you
did them at or before that point.

~~~
mjolk
>If you want to do open-source work on an area related to your job you must
talk to your employer first

I promise you that's not the law.

A bartender that makes drinks for his friends at a house party doesn't have to
reimburse his employer for skills learned when tending a bar.

> and whatever open source work you do you should be sure you're either not
> using company resources or have permission to use them

But this is a valid point. If you're using company hardware and resources,
you're arguably spending resources owned by the company.

~~~
kzahel
I would argue that this is a moot point since computer hardware is a
commodity. Most companies around here buy their employees new hardware and
said employees will simply use them for all their computing needs as is
convenient (would you travel with 2 laptops just to be able to claim you
didn't use company hardware).

I frankly find this kind of legal posturing by companies abhorrent and
immoral. It's almost like treating employees as slaves.

~~~
mjolk
>I would argue that this is a moot point since computer hardware is a
commodity.

The cost of the hardware is recognized (in accounting) over the life of the
machine.

>(would you travel with 2 laptops just to be able to claim you didn't use
company hardware).

I have a really nice computer from work and an old laptop at home. I use my
old laptop for all personal projects to avoid just such an issue.

------
werid
The company is AppendTo.

"In appendTo, we’ve constructed our business model to encourage our staff to
keep an effective and balanced schedule. The definition of work-life balance
is unique for each person, but we’ve built our organization with the features
and tools that empowers our employees to customize their interaction with
appendTo to their needs. This manifests itself many ways, from flex time to
giving our engineers time to work on personal growth or open source projects."

\-- [http://appendto.com/company/values/](http://appendto.com/company/values/)

~~~
rubiquity
Shame on them. They used to be a front runner in web development tutorials and
it seems they have built a company out of that.

A quick pro-tip for appendTo: if your company's business model is in building
things for developers, don't do scummy things to your developer employees.

~~~
Twirrim
Shame on them for not wanting an employee to take what they've learned at work
(on a monetised product) and release it open source? The tech stack is largely
irrelevant, the products are in the exact same domain.

I think any company would be rightly pissed off if their employees did that.
Can you imagine github, for example, being happy for one of their employees to
be working on a complete web front-end / issues tracking system for git, in
their spare time and releasing it open source, provided it was written in
Java? Or Atlassian being happy for one of their employees writing a complete
ticketing system in their spare time, and releasing it open source provided it
was written in javascript?

Really?

~~~
tomp
That is completely within the employee's rights. Unless it's covered by a
trade secret, patent or copyright, what you know (even if you learned it on
the job) is yours to use.

~~~
davorak
How would the employee know what is a trade secret though? When something is
first discovered it is not known yet that the employer would want it kept
secret until someone in a position to make that decision does so.

Are their laws around this? Or is it set mostly through case law? Anyone have
additional information?

~~~
ilyanep
IANAL, but the important pieces (in most states) come from the Uniform Trade
Secrets Act[0], which defines a Trade Secret. I'm pretty sure that most
software ideas developed at software companies can be considered trade
secrets, unless they're commonly known, but once again IANAL and don't have a
solid handle on that.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Trade_Secrets_Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Trade_Secrets_Act)

------
hapless
This is a sad story, but it could have been seen coming from a mile away:

\- He worked on a personal project during company time. Edit: Oops. I misread
this one as the inverse of what the author was saying. He only worked on it
_while employed._ Still very ugly given the field of his work.

\- His personal project is directly related to his work.

\- His personal project conceivably competes with his employer's products.

\- The company does not have staff in NY or CA, so the author lacks even the
minimal limitations on non-competes imposed by state law
([http://newappendto.wpengine.com/wp-
content/uploads/2013/12/1...](http://newappendto.wpengine.com/wp-
content/uploads/2013/12/100-Remote.png))

All of these things are typically barred by completely reasonable non-
competes. As the author, I would absolutely expect to receive a C&D. As his
former employer, I would feel (personally) hurt, even betrayed, by this
behavior.

~~~
mildtrepidation
Either you don't quite understand the purpose of a non-compete or there's an
entire class of them I'm not aware of (which is entirely possible), but in my
experience, their purpose is to explicitly bar employees from poaching
customers from the business.

Working on something in your personal time that's similar to what you're
working on for your employer -- unless your employment contract is entirely
unreasonable -- isn't and shouldn't be a violation unless you are using
company resources (including but not limited to trade secrets learned in the
context of your employment and not legally available through other sources).

~~~
fecak
Non-compete is a somewhat generalized term being used here, but it can mean
what you referenced ("don't poach customers") as well as "don't steal our
product ideas". These are sometimes called NDA or PIIA (1) which might be
better representations of what we are talking about here. In this case, the
company is claiming that he stole their code (an 'invention' or 'property' of
the company) for the benefit of some other party.

NDA or PIIA agreements are common in software development.

1 - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-
disclosure_agreement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-disclosure_agreement)

------
tokenrove
It's one thing to work on unrelated open source software while working
somewhere. It's a much more tenuous situation when you're working on OSS in
the same domain as your commercial software, even if the entire technology
stack is completely different. Unfortunately it sounds like the employer's
claim might have some legs in this case.

~~~
Fuxy
I would disagree.

What you do in your personal time is none of your employers business he is not
paying for that time and he does not own whatever you create in that time.

Not unless you signed a ridiculous contract saying something like that which
in my opinion should not be enforceable anyway.

It's like a construction company saying it owns the house you built for your
family just because you happen to work for them and you gained experience by
working for them.

They certainly didn't supply the raw material which in programming would be
time and effort so they shouldn't have any claim on it.

~~~
Xylakant
I disagree. Your employer is sponsoring a lot of your learnings in a specific
area, so he's entitled to all your ideas in that area, that's what your paid
for. It would be extremely easy to just keep your best ideas for "your"
project and not use them in your work project.

The construction company would have a valid claim if you stole the blueprints
at work.

~~~
masklinn
> Your employer is sponsoring a lot of your learnings in a specific area, so
> he's entitled to all your ideas in that area

No, he is not on either count.

> that's what your paid for.

I don't know you, but I'm paid for the work I produce, I'd be really happy if
I could be paid for learning stuff and not doing shit.

> The construction company would have a valid claim if you stole the
> blueprints at work.

Yes. It would not have a valid claim if you built stuff on the side, even if
it's better stuff. Your company does not own your knowledge, which is why non-
compete agreements are invalid in just about all jurisdictions unless _very
heavily_ compensated (in Germany it's _at least 50% of gross_ and no more than
2 years, and clauses can still be found unreasonable and invalidated).

~~~
gamblor956
In the US, most white-collar jobs have contractual clauses that grant the
employer rights to IP produced by the employee, even after work hours, if such
IP relates to the work the employee performs for the employer.

These clauses are enforceable in every state, though some states such as
California limit the breadth of "related" to the specific industry or
industries in which the employer operates.

------
mjolk
This isn't what I have in mind when I think "open-source bullying." This is
standard corporate lawyer sending of C&D orders.

~~~
rubiquity
Agreed. This should be renamed to "Employer bullying open source now-former-
employee." It's an incredibly crappy situation and the former employee is
doing exactly what the Employer wants, not defending themselves due to the
expense of doing so.

~~~
michaelochurch
_It 's an incredibly crappy situation and the former employee is doing exactly
what the Employer wants, not defending themselves due to the expense of doing
so._

... and protecting (rather than naming) the employer, something the employer
also wants, out of fear of causing a reputation issue for "bad-mouthing" an
ex-- in this case, an objectively _deserving_ ex.

We need representation, agents and collective bargaining, like actors and
writers in Hollywood. This event just proves that, because we (as tech
workers) fail to fight for our own, employers can get away with far too much
shit.

------
octo_t
This seems less like bullying and more like a company enforcing a 'do not
compete' clause in the programmer's contract.

Even if its a different stack, they would have had access to things like A/B
testing, client feedback and client names if he wanted to try selling his
version!

~~~
nraynaud
I don't know how you can create a better mousetrap if you can't use your
knowledge of the industry gained on the field to build it.

~~~
ambrice
So quit your job at MouseTrap Enterprises before you go off and build your
better mouse trap. If you have a job as a MouseTrap inventor at MouseTrap
Enterprises and you have a great idea for a mouse trap, it does seem kind of
sketchy to go off and create your better mouse trap at home on the weekends
while you're cashing your MTE checks. That is what they're paying you for..

------
ChuckMcM
If he is based in California then the court systems will put the onus on they
company for proving his project infringed. There are three things I've learned
to remember in California about moonlighting; Don't work on any project that
has the same goals as one of your employers project, get clearance in writing
when you start, and keep good notes.

Early in my career doing hardware design on my own was 'easy' since I was
always employed as a software engineer, and number two (get clearance) really
helped me understand both how cool NetApp was and how bogus Google was in what
they consider 'their space'. Number three helped early on, keeping a notebook
I found was helpful for me to keep from _not_ bringing things from work home
into my projects.

------
romanovcode
Open-source bullying is when someone says "your code sucks and you should kill
yourself!".

This is more of a company enforcing that you do not copy the systems they are
doing to minimize competition. Many times when people leave they try to create
same product that previous company created.

------
stefek99
Welcome to my world :)

14\. Intellectual Property and Related Rights

￼14.1 All records, documents, papers, databases (including copies and
summaries thereof) and other original matter, work or creation (collectively
“Creations”) made or acquired by the Employee in the course of the Employment
shall, together with all copyright, database rights and design rights both
registerable and unregisterable that subsist in all such Creations worldwide,
be and at all times remain the absolute property of the Company.

14.2 The Employee hereby irrevocably and unconditionally waives all rights
granted by Chapter IV of Part I of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988
that vest in the Employee (whether before, on or after the date hereof) in
connection with the authorship of any copyright works in the course of the
Employment with the Company, wherever in the world enforceable, including
without limitation the right to be identified as the author of any such works
and the right not to have any such works subjected to derogatory treatment.

I wonder if I can teach my 2yo daughter alphabet or counting 1-2-3 or would
she become property of the company?

~~~
guan
I think the key here is how “in the course of the Employment” should be
interpreted. Is it anything that happens during the dates you are employed, or
is there a requirement of some connection to the employment?

------
FD3SA
Another reason to work for an employer as a consultant, so that you control
your own IP and time.

I'll keep saying this until one day talented programmers get the message. If
you're creating open source frameworks, you're talented enough to not have to
take any bullshit from employers. Offer them your services, and nothing else.

Sadly, the state of health insurance in the US makes this somewhat difficult.

------
AustinW
I get that this can be generic, and we can discuss this as a open source issue
with an employer asserting their rights, but I want to take a more direct
approach to the specific situation.

Does a company really think they are able to achieve and sustain a competitive
advantage from controlling a continuous integration system? What is the
business rationale here?

~~~
frankydp
If they do a lot of consulting, they could have heavy third party approval
processes or some other consulting workflow structure in the CI that "greatly"
improves their customer experience or engagement in the dev process.

I am not sure that there would be a burden on the employer to even prove value
though.

------
cfqycwz
Shouldn't the title of this submission be that on the page, "Avow-CI Is No
More?" The submission title was previously highly editorialized, now changed
to "Open-source bullying or just the company's right?" but I think that's
still pretty slanted and limits the discussion to only two viewpoints.

~~~
dang
Yes, the title was against the rules and we changed it. I didn't see the
previous one, but if it was worse it must have been really bad.

All: Please don't editorialize titles, especially not to make them more
linkbaity.

------
jrochkind1
If it was legally released under an open source license, someone can and
should grab it before he deletes it, put it somewhere else, and people other
than him can certainly legally keep using it or working on it, right?

I guess the employer could try cease-and-desisting others and claiming it is
their IP and the open source license was not legal.

~~~
staticelf
Yes. At least in my country. That's why I forked the repo and perhaps see if
it is useful maybe I'll even commit something.

I think they will have a hard time tracking down me and then fight a legal
battle overseas. If they were to send me a C&D letter I would simply not
comply, answer or do anything. First they have to find my address though.

A lot of people already has forked it, the code is available in a ta, maybe
even in the history. Because of the seemingly bad communication now it will
never go down.

------
lucb1e
Not sure it won't get deleted along with the original repos that I forked it
from, but at least here is the repos reverted to the last useful commit:

[https://github.com/lucb1e/avow-ci/](https://github.com/lucb1e/avow-ci/)

And if it gets deleted, I have the code locally.

------
filmgirlcw
This whole situation is really sad. I don't know if he violated any terms of
his contract or not (and I take him at his word that he didn't reuse code),
but I certainly understand his position that his family and livelihood are
more important than fighting some lawsuit.

That said, I think this highlights and important point -- when you work on
outside projects that are even tangentially related to your full-time job (and
by that, I mean, if you are an engineer, any software you write, not just
stuff associated with what you write at work), it's important to get that
cleared and approved in your contract. Preferably at the time of hiring.

I'm a writer and reporter. I can't make money or even contribute articles for
free to a publication that could be considered a competitor -- that's
obviously clear. But when I was hired, I was working on a few freelance
projects that were not directly related to my main employer. I got it in
writing that those projects (including things like podcasts or magazine work)
are clear. Every year when I review my contract, I make sure those points
remain intact, along with the new names of other projects I work on.

But if I were to start another creative project, even one that on the surface
didn't intersect or compete with my employer, and I didn't get that cleared
(or I didn't already have the ability t do so in my contract), that would
absolutely be a problem.

------
nullz
Shouldn't we name names in this case? This behaviour should be part of the
company's public image. Or does that just greatly increase the legal risk for
the author?

~~~
keithpeter
I personally would not do business with or purchase products from a company
that decided to threaten an ex-employee in this way. But then, I am not an
important person.

------
EGreg
Could have been worse

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov)

------
markbnj
A lot of good comments here, and I think the OP stepped in it a little bit. It
should have been a wee bit more obvious that the overlap was likely to cause
some concern, so chalk this one up to a professional learning experience,
which as others have pointed out could have been a lot more costly.

Another factor, imo, is that regardless of how supportive of open source your
employer is, human jealousy and possessiveness still comes into play. Nobody
is getting as much work done as they would like, and they never will. When a
manager hears about an open source project I guarantee you some little corner
of his or her brain feels like they want those hours for themselves. I've seen
this emotion inadvertently aired on more than one occasion. If the project in
question is truly a side project and truly unrelated then the manager's best
course is obviously a held tongue. But it if is potentially competitive? Now
the reaction has legitimacy, and for that reason alone it's best to steer well
clear of anything that might be a conflict.

------
kabdib
Depends on your employee agreement, and where you live. Most of the companies
I've worked at said that anything related to any of their business was theirs,
regardless of the times that I worked on it. Since a large company does a
_lot_ of things, you're pretty much down to selling fruit or watercolor
paintings of stuffed animals, if that. (I believe that Microsoft has a blanket
"No moonlighting" that they want to apply to _all_ jobs; makes those paying
hobbies interesting).

My current employer doesn't care at all, and gives explicit permission in the
employee contract. I can even write stuff that is in their business space, as
long as I do it on my own time and equipment. Very enlightened.

------
ephidias
His former employer is claiming that he worked on it on their time and that he
stole code. He denies these claims and even offers some evidence to prove it.

So HN says he should have discussed it with them, he probably had a non-
compete clause, he probably conferred his intellectual property to his
employer in his contract, or that his actions are just in general bad form.

BULL - The companies claims are pretty specific and if they are false as he
claims then their behaviour is indefensible.

I'm shocked that the HN community is in favour of this.

------
d_theorist
Doesn't it just come down to what's in his contract? Many contracts now do
include a clause assigning copyright to all employee code (even that written
outside work) to the company. I would never sign such a contract, but it's a
perfectly reasonable thing to put in one.

In the absence of such an explicit clause I am pretty sure that copyright
automatically belongs to the author of the code.

------
georgeecollins
I would have preferred it if he had included “what was practically a cease and
desist letter”. It would be easier to judge the case if you knew what his
employer was asking him to do in their own words.

I have worked in the game industry for a long time and it used to be said that
code walks with programmers. The use of open source repositories may end up
making this more visible.

------
artellectual
Another 'big guy bully small guy' story, there seems to be a lot of these
nowadays. Again, the law doesn't protect the small guys at all does it. Shame
Really.

appendTo on the blacklist of companies to work for, someone should make a site
with a collection of companies with these kinds of behaviour, so people are
aware. last one I read about was Goldman Sachs.

------
pawelkomarnicki
It's sad, but a rule of thumb is: "never EVER open source anything that is
close to your employer", because people don't care how different your open
source project is. They see what they monetize on, so they sue. Unless you
really do something generic, like "yet another social network for kitten
owners having foot fetish" ;-)

------
fredgrott
ah..am I missing something?..source is still up in release download section

~~~
rubiquity
The README states that the entire repo will be deleted on April 18th.

~~~
mcv
Presumably, lots of people will fork it before that time.

~~~
rubiquity
I wasn't going to out right say that :) I don't want the repo owner to be held
accountable for that.

~~~
zanny
He isn't accountable, he is complying with the C&D. His company can go ahead
and try if they think they can censor the entire Internet of his work.

Information freedom is a wonderful thing.

------
nsfyn55
This is why I don't have kids. So I can irresponsibly and irrationally fight
the good fight. Sorry for your loss.

------
staticelf
I forked the repo, but I think I will actually see if I can put it up in a
non-forked repo so it'll be a tiny bit harder to take down. Also I am starting
a private repo as backup on another git service.

They will never be able to shut it down now lol. I think the communication of
the employer was really bad even if it's not that good to do the same at home
as you are doing at work.

------
gcb0
That's why the easiest way to improve the world by open source is to only
commit anonymously.

sad, but true.

------
cordite
Wow, the repository is really gutted out.

In the case I needed to do something like this, how would I?

------
briantakita
Is this a case to use a personal corporation and submit open source code?

To limit liability...

