
Survey Reveals Why High School Students Drop Out - robg
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/learning/Pages/2006-High-school-drop-out-rate-survey.aspx
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smokeyj
I think education needs to have an objective. We need to say, when you leave
highschool, you will be able to make money. You will have a marketable skill
that will enable you to provide for yourself. You should be able to fix a car,
do some plumbing, wire a house, or SOMETHING. Instead we're robotic zombies
memorizing a series of worthless facts. Facts are not valuable. You cannot eat
facts for dinner. Information is not the same commodity it was 50 years ago.

This idea that we can mass manufacture intelligent students by cramming them
in a class room, reciting curriculum, and bubbling scantrons is nonsense. Real
education can't be institutionalized like this, it requires hands on learning
and personalized instruction. With tablet computers, a students curriculum
should dynamically adapt to the students learning needs. I feel like our
education is watered down because there's no competition to teach students.
The State has a monopoly on education and we're suffering the unfortunate side
effects of a centrally planned industry.

~~~
thematt
Interesting point about information not being the same commodity is was 50
years ago. It actually seems like information is an even more valuable
commodity than it was back then. We seem to be turning into an information
based economy where the low level skills that people might learn in high
school are quickly becoming irrelevant in today's highly automated,
computerized society.

~~~
bad_user
There's a difference between knowing a list of facts, and being able to apply
it.

Information nowadays is cheap. A quick search can reveal almost any fact you
want. Analyzing a problem given the information available, processing it,
creating stuff based on that information: that's the stuff that still can't be
automated yet.

That said, I think high school curriculum in general is fine. It's the
universities that need an overhaul.

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awakeasleep
Found a few aspects of this article frustrating.

First, the linked "study" isn't a study at all, it's a summary written for
public consumption.

Second, we get no information about how the figures were derived- were these
people presented with a multiple choice survey? What choices were available on
that survey?

Third, the whole study is built on people's self-reported analysis of their
own motivations. While valuable, I know that kind of data isn't fully
reliable.

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tomlin
I dropped out for several reasons, one being an unstable childhood, but I
don't look back on it. I am successful and generally consider myself to be a
well-rounded, critical-thinking individual. None of which school had anything
to do with. You can cross parenting off of that list as well.

I would like to see different approaches to education. I tend to see worth in
our current system from kindergarten until about grade 5, then it seems to go
awry.

From grade 5, forward, I would like to see a "Pull" system implemented,
whereby the students pull topics from a full-circle repository of topics,
interests, dialects.

Give students the tools to find what they will be good at and give them the
space to learn the material they are interested in. Give guidance over
teaching.

Having been diagnosed with "A.D.D", I found the curriculum was designed for
one type of person and was absolutely inefficient for a relatively large sized
minority of students. Yes, the Farmer vs. Hunter argument treads heavily here,
but that's the point.

Most students are great with tasking, others have proficiency of hyperfocus.
As a society, we should acknowledge that our current vocational system is
hurtful more than helpful.

In a system where I could "Pull" interests, I would have faired much better. I
know this because this is how I learn new languages, or better implementations
of the technology I use today.

As many HNer's know, exposure to data and insightful debate opens up new
topics or technologies that you would otherwise be unaware of. Why wouldn't
this concept apply to education as well?

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bane
One of the major problems in the U.S. is the one-size-fits-all mentality.
Thousands of kids are sent to enormous mega-schools and are expected to be
stamped through a unified educational process like a piece of mass production.
The result is that the public school system becomes more like a holding pen
than an educational opportunity.

While the U.S. _does_ do a pretty good job of identifying gifted students and
herding them off to more specialized education, it does a very poor job of
identifying students for more vocational training.

In many systems, students are segregated early...perhaps middle school...and
receive very different educations depending on their chances of going to
college and getting a degree or vocational school and learning a trade.

(of course I say this now with a handful of degrees under my belt when I would
have been an obvious High Schooler for the vocational education...so it's not
a perfect idea by any stretch)

~~~
coffeedrinker
This. And what goes along with it: Not pushing everyone to the same end.

For example, learning math has many valuable aspects. However, learning
advanced math is not valuable for everyone. In fact, it becomes detrimental to
the student who struggles with it.

Rather than find the subjects that are interesting and worthwhile, students
are in situations where they perform poorly and will never benefit from it.

The school system (from the state on down) thinks that requiring more is the
solution but they should focus on doing less and doing it very well. Rather
than adding more advanced classes to students who already are not benefiting
from them, a solid basic foundation should be given and then move the kids
into trades and vocations that suit their interests and abilities.

~~~
ry0ohki
I remember I'd always question my high school math teachers "why do I need
this? What will I use this for in real life?". They never had great answers
(although in my old age I can now think of good reasons), but providing real
life useful context around what is taught I think would help a lot of kids
understand the importance.

~~~
WalterBright
I always give an answer given to me by a used car salesman. Those who don't
understand math can and will get rooked for $$$$ by those who sell them
financing.

~~~
klbarry
True, but that is more along the lines of quantitative thinking. All the
specific math actually useful to most people (compound interes, depreciation,
etc) could be taught in a one semester course.

~~~
bugsy
Yes, the discussions on math regarding high school always seem strange to me.
There is a lot of talk about the relevance of calculus and trigonometry (which
I personally think are relevant and should be understood, trigonometry is
required for woodworking and crafts for example), but the reality is that
regardless of whatever classes they have supposedly passed the typical high
school graduate has just basic arithmetic skills and many have a competency
level below that, requiring a calculator in order to make change from a
dollar. They have third grade level skills and nothing more. But the reality
is that basic arithmetic skills are taught well and rapidly throughout the
rest of the industrialized world. There are various reasons for it and the
parents are not to blame, nor are "higher standards" and homework the answer.
For kids that are 17 and can't reduce a fraction the answer is not to require
them to take calculus next. Alas, by the time one is 14 it is too late to be
learning the basics. There is no excuse to be spending so many hours in school
and have students that are passed on year after year without knowing basic
math and reading skills, and the usual big talk from politicians about high
standards won't fix what is wrong.

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keithba
I felt I had to drop out of my high school because of the one-size-fits all
mentality. Outside of a couple of teachers who tried to attempted to challenge
me, the rest of the administration felt fine with placing me in classes that
were incredibly boring for me.

And no one was willing to help me figure out how to graduate early.

So I dropped out at 15, got a GED, and enrolled in college a year later. All
with no guidance from any adult (including my mom - who for obscure religious
reasons was anti-higher education.)

At 19 I had to drop of college to help support my mom who was sick and never
did get my degree. Since then, I've been successful (shipped some major
products, published books, etc).

But, it many years to see the current educational system as anything but
corrupt and useless for many years after this experience.

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MichaelGG
I "dropped out" around 7th grade. I remember asking the teacher "why are we
learning X?" "Well, in 8th grade you'll need it!" This Q&A recursed until I
realised it was pointless to talk to her. In 10th grade, I moved out of the
country and didn't enroll anymore.

Business-wise, this worked out great; more commercial experience programming,
earlier.

A decade later, I discovered learning is _fun_. Learning how the universe
works should be amazingly interesting! Instead, I had teachers that would say
things like "carbon-14 dating is a trick by scientists that hate god". Sigh.

~~~
kenjackson
What's an example of X?

~~~
bartonfink
This is going to sound unpopular given the audience here, but I'd bet most
examples of "X" in this context will be corners of math. Math tends to be more
cumulative than most other subjects taught in high school, and as such it's
the subject that jumps to mind when the answer "next year" makes sense when
someone asks "when am I going to use X?" Trigonometry, for example, or matrix
math are highly esoteric in the context of a usual high-school student, yet
they show up all over the damned place when you get out of high school and
into more advanced studies. This is a real shame because math is essentially a
vocabulary for solving problems and there should be dozens of answers a
teacher could give to that ? besides "next year."

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jwwest
As a drop out, I personally found the reasons hit pretty close to home.

However, I think the assumption that all drop outs never do anything education
wise again is misleading. I ended up getting my GED, going to college and then
got my graduate degree.

Dropping out of high school does not equate a bad future. In fact, I believe
if I hadnt had a few extra years to figure out what exactly I wanted out of
life, I would have failed spectacularly in college.

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ohashi
It's interesting to see the reasoning and the regret (most people wish they
had finished). However, I wonder what sort of bias is introduced looking
backward. Are these the real underlying reasons for dropping out or just
surface excuses retrospectively used?

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mannicken
I dropped out of high school partially because my bouts of depressive laziness
contrasted with manic hyperactivity aren't well-stacked against the constant
intense effort that the educational system requires. You could literally see
quarters of steady grades (sometimes 4.0s) followed by quarters with a bunch
of Fs in them.

I was taking community college classes instead of 11/12th grade so it wasn't a
big "OH I'M DROPPING OUT" thing for me, I just didn't turn in some portfolio
because I was working on a different project and honestly didn't give a shit
about some piece of paper. Perhaps some part of me just wanted to fuck with
the system and prove how useless the pieces of paper are when compared with
the ability to create cool shit.

Yes, I would say the my inner rebellious nature wouldn't allow me to have any
formal education. I am one lab class away from an associate's degree and
taking anything but lab classes in community college :)

I am only 19 so I really do not know whether I am on a path to drug-addled
self-destruction (as a typical high school dropout) or something else.

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bugsy
I don't know why Gates is advocating for fewer drop outs. Drop outs are one of
the few things that is working for kids.

Schools segregate on age now not ability.

For smart kids, school is frustrating and holds them back. It is better for
them to leave school at 15 and transfer to a community college where they can
take control of their education.

For not-smart kids, vocational education from 15-17 leading to apprenticeships
gives them something of interest and useful to them.

For average kids, the system might work if the other two groups who are
frustrated were channelled towards more useful pursuits than sitting bored,
and sometimes forced to take amphetamines like Ritalin just to have the
appearance of being focused.

~~~
rexf
Where is this sentiment favoring dropping out of our education system coming
from? HN and related community has had several discussions about dropping out
of college (and now high school). Peter Thiel offered to pay college students
to drop out.

Despite our (likely inferior to other countries) educational system, high
school and college graduation directly benefits children. By graduating high
school, a student will have a minimum level of knowledge (basic literacy,
arithmetic) applicable in society. A higher national high school graduation %
is better than a lower %.

Advocating students to drop out of high school for community college or trade
school is not scalable. Today, ambitious students take AP/Honors/Community
College or learn trade crafts after school hours. Blanket favoring kids
dropping out of high school is irresponsible as it hurts their future.

~~~
rchowe
I'm currently a high school student taking five AP classes, and I can tell you
that most of my AP classes just teach what people need to know on the AP test.
I'd much rather take an Honors class than an AP class, but at my school Honors
classes aren't offered when APs are. I learned most of what I know now before
I even went to high school - I'm a victim of this educational system
stratifying by age, and I can tell you that it didn't work for me.

The other thing that I see is that most of the people in my AP classes are
diagnosed with ADHD and are put on Ritalin... to keep them paying attention in
some lackluster classes. Ken Robinson's first TED talk says it a lot better
than I can, but I do favor vocational tech and stratifying by ability,
although I can see that that will open a whole new can of worms, such as
parents pushing for their children to be top-tier.

~~~
contravert
Why don't you just study for the AP exams yourself? I self-studied for 4 AP
exams (along with other course work) in the last year of high school, and I
did pretty well. The AP exams are actually a joke due to the number of
unqualified students who take them and the bell-curve system.

~~~
rchowe
I took the AP computer science exam without any prep and got a 5. The issue is
that classes aren't offered at the Honors level if there's an AP class that
could replace it, and for the classes I'm taking (AP Stats, Psych, Physics,
Calc, English, and accelerated Anatomy) it's not worth it to take the
accelerated version (Anatomy isn't offered above accelerated, and ironically
enough is my favorite class; there's actually more physiology than anatomy,
and the memorization isn't that bad).

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wil2k
Just check these interviews about Education from this page:

<http://www.thebyteshow.com/JosephPFarrell.html>

To be precise:

[http://www.thebyteshow.com/Audio/JosephPFarrell/JosephPFarre...](http://www.thebyteshow.com/Audio/JosephPFarrell/JosephPFarrell_MagicOfSocialEngineering7_29Jan2011_TBS.mp3)

[http://www.thebyteshow.com/Audio/JosephPFarrell/JosephPFarre...](http://www.thebyteshow.com/Audio/JosephPFarrell/JosephPFarrell_MagicOfSocialEngineering9_16Feb2011_TBS.mp3)

I think what's described in those interviews is very telling..

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etherael
I left school in year nine (Australia) for two reasons

Primary) I never learned a single thing in school that I had not already
learned from self study. I am a hardcore autodidact so I don't take this alone
as evidence that school is just not useful, but it certainly doesn't seem to
be _that_ rare, either.

Tertiary) I was offered a job working with computers for what was an extremely
large amount for a fourteen year old in 1994 (50k AUD).

The worst aspect of this however is that for a significant period of time
after I had dismissed school as not useful, my only experience of school had
been compulsory education, which I now know to be _enormously_ removed from
the kind of education one gets at a university. I feel like my very negative
experience of education at an early age poisoned me against higher education,
and if I had a single recommendation for pre university schooling it would be
that it _should_ be a lot more like university.

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georgieporgie
On the subject of relevance and motivation, the one and only thing that
encouraged me to do any actual work in school was when my father offered to
pay me a bonus for B's and A's.. In retrospect, it's amazing how relevant
everything suddenly became.

They say it's bad, but it worked well for me.

Also: the reason that High School teachers can't tell you why you need to
learn _x_ is that they don't know themselves. Having come into contact with a
few teachers as an adult, I'm appalled at how little they know. They seemed a
lot smarter when I was 14.

~~~
zasz
I don't know about point 1. My parents paid me for good grades, and my
attitude towards learning is a little warped now, to say the least. (They were
also Tiger Parents, though. Motivation is a tricky thing to get right.)

For point 2, definitely. I asked my math teacher once what a rigorous
definition for a tangent was, and she couldn't give me one. Blah. All these
unhappy postdocs and grad students should teach high school.

