
Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat - FuNe
http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/pressrelease/kids-praised-for-being-smart-are-more-likely-to-cheat
======
rkowalick
I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more
important.

As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as
possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new,
especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

~~~
charlesdm
A bit of both is probably good.

For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given
points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I
talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think
it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet
achieve nothing?

Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible and account
for the fact that not everyone has the same level of intelligence or ability
(everyone is different + has different talents, which is great!), but you can
end up with some weird situations. Add to that the fact that the people who
become teachers are generally of quite low quality (very few bright minds end
up teaching) and you can easily see the quality of education declining.

While grades are to be looked at on a case by case basis (and I'm aware people
don't often find their passions and talents until later in life), I don't
believe that you should get (too much) points for effort. You don't get points
in life for effort either.

~~~
rm_-rf_slash
That's insane. When I "make an effort" to pay a parking ticket on time and I
don't, nobody gives me a shiny sticker star - I have to pay double instead.

EDIT: People, I said nothing about children paying parking tickets or about
poor people. My comment is an example of a self-inflicted problem that is
exacerbated by self-inflicted delay, to which the consequences must be borne
by the individual as is the nature of life - NOT a dissertation on poverty.
These distractions do little to serve the debate.

~~~
rtpg
This comment lacks a bit of empathy.

If someone is trying, even if they fail, that means they are more likely to
improve if they receive the right sort of feedback or support. Someone who
isn't trying lacks even the basic motivation necessary to try.

Instead, if you treat someone who tries and fails the same as someone who
doesn't and fails, then there is an incentive for the person to not even try!

For your parking ticket, if you geniunely tried to pay a parking ticket but
couldn't (for example because you didn't have the money at the time) it
totally doesn't make sense to charge you double. It would make more sense to
do something like put you on a payment plan, or otherwise take into account
that you have legitimate difficulties. Financial, organizational, or
otherwise.

Zero tolerance policies do not "solve problems" because they ignore the
individual contexts.

~~~
rm_-rf_slash
I lack ALL empathy for me when I am confronted with such a double fine. It was
my wrongdoing, so I suck it up and pay up.

I, an adult of sound mind and stable finances, occasionally forget to pay
parking tickets on time. I am punished by a doubling of the fine. I deserve
that punishment by breaking the law a second time, and I pay for that
violation of the law by paying the double fine. It sucks but I move on.

These edge case straw-men are not a productive retort to my statement.

~~~
Bjartr
The strawman here is the ticket & fine argument. Great that you can make an
argument for how we should handle them, but it's not a productive argument
because the goals of tickets & fines and grades are too different. Tickets &
fines have (usually and for the most part, I don't doubt you could find some
kind of counterexample) one goal, disincentivize the behavior that was
ticketed. Grades serve multiple goals (and not everyone will even agree on the
relative priority, and the two I mention are not comprehensive): First to
measure attained level of skill, and second to incentiveize improving those
skills over time. Both of these serve the higher level goal of actually
educating students in a manner that results in them being productive members
of society. If we acurately measure that half of all students are not
adequately prepared _we_ have failed _them_. So rather than throw around talk
of zero tolerance policies, let's talk about how we might change things so
that students will be better prepared for contributing to society, which is
not well served by instilling in students a feeling of futility.

~~~
rtpg
I would say that even in the case of tickets, you can instill futility with
the fines.

Many Americans spend basically their entire adult lives with outstanding fines
against them, if only because it's not possible for them to ever pay the
cumulative fines + subsequent punishments. Throw on issues like bail and
you've built a system someone can fall into and never get out of

------
danielvf
Perhaps there's a third way.

My parents didn't praise us so much for our efforts, nor for "achievements",
but they were really excited about the things and projects we were doing. It
was like the whole universe was full of exciting things to be discovered and
mastered.

For example, if we were going down a river in a canoe, my dad wasn't talking
about how much work we kids were doing, or how skilled we were. He was talking
about the amazing eagles, herons, hawks, and water moccasins we were seeing,
and how to best shoot the rapids, and what the difference wave shapes meant
about the rocks underneath. We kids didn't learn and work at canoeing because
we would be praised if we did well. We wanted to explore and master the river!

I've found in teaching that moving the focus off the student and onto whatever
amazing thing we are learning about works really well - both with kids and
adults.

~~~
ballenf
Not all hard work has the immediate payoff of your example. There are plateaus
in early learning where the payoff is impossible to see and one most proceed
on almost blind faith that the task is worthwhile. Or because someone else is
making you do it.

Praise from a parent, mentor or teacher regarding the effort put forth in
those moments can prevent the learner from giving up.

But I do agree that kids (or even adults sometimes) need help recognizing the
mind-blowing wonder of nature and natural phenomenon around them. I like to
take the approach of asking my kids why they think animals are doing what
they're doing or why the water is rough in some spots but not others, etc.
They get more praise for a more thoughtful or logical answers (effort) without
regard for accuracy (outcome).

------
Pulcinella
This is anecdotal, but I have also noticed the related inverse problem as
well. Students who think they are "one of the dumb kids" do much worse than
similar students who do not think that. These students will randomly guess the
answer to a multiple choice[1] question if they don't instantly know the
answer, even if the answer to the question was basically given in another
question on the test.

Part of helping this kind of student is also praising them for effort rather
than "smartness" and teaching them how to be good test takers (e.g. How to use
the test against itself, how to "guess" wisely, etc).

[1] Debate on the pedagogical value of multiple choice tests is left as an
exercise to the reader.

~~~
throwawayjava
This is absolutely my experience -- even a few positive reinforcements ("Wow,
that was a super clever idea! I wouldn't have thought of solving the problem
that way!") can change students' mindset, at least in a particular
class/subject.

It's amazing how few students are actually as bad as they appear to be on
first pass. I basically go into every student/teacher interaction assuming the
kid is above average, and I'm very rarely disappointed. That's because
"average" is often pulled _way_ down by issues surrounding self-image and
study behavior, both of which have no bearing on raw ability.

Basically, "confidence + hard work" is usually enough to take a kid from below
average to slightly above average.

------
AceyMan
Having read the current child psych lit extensively, I can provide a boot-camp
education on raising young'uns in one sentence:

"Your children don't want to be praised; they want to be _noticed._ "

'Dad/mom look at me / watch me do this / see what I did in class', etc, etc.
all signify this — praise isn't what their psyche thirsts for, merely plain
old attention. Done earnestly, giving attention takes time, and so has a
'cost' in adult's life that may be greater than you'd assume — see, the
subtext of the tune "Cat's Cradle" — but the payoff is immeasurable.

/George's Dad

~~~
buxtehude
Thank you for sharing this - I just read the "Cat's Cradle" lyrics - a song I
had heard all my life but never really stopped to think about. As a father of
a 3 year old, I'm very happy to say I spend regular daily quality time with my
son and frankly it's the best thing ever in my entire life.

If you have any favorite links from early child psych lit - please share.

~~~
AceyMan
Off the top of my head, "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn is a seminal
text in the field. "Parenting From the Inside Out" by Daniel Siegel & Mary
Hartzell is wonderful as well.

~~~
NoIKnow
Unconditional parenting hurts self-esteem, encourages immaturity and ill
prepares children for life in the adult world. Alfie Kohn should retitle that
book "How to Raise a Self-Centered A-Hole". Most things in life have strings
attached - yep, love is no different. Try treating someone who loves you with
a lack of regard, an emotionally healthy person will draw a line. Set
boundaries, show disapproval or risk raising a child with an inability to
emotionally regulate when things don't go their way as they so often do in
life.

Unconditional love should only apply to achievement so the child will not fear
that you will not love them if they fail to meet academic expectations.
Instill essential qualities, such as hard work, discipline, patience,
persistence, and perseverance then you give a child the tools to achieve their
goals.

------
b3lvedere
A couple of weeks ago someone introduced me to the idea not only asking your
kids if everything is ok, but also ask what went wrong or failed.

At first i was a little afraid asking my kids those kind of things, but until
now their reaction has been quite positive.

~~~
tertius
Good idea. Source?

~~~
b3lvedere
The source is a bit complex. :)

I listen to this daily podcast called The Morning Stream (
[http://frogpants.com/tms/](http://frogpants.com/tms/) ). On thursdays they
got a segment called Theraphy Thursdays (
[https://therapythursdays.com/about/](https://therapythursdays.com/about/)).
It came up a few weeks ago in this segment.

------
mattlondon
Anecdote:

I had always been told I was intelligent and clever. When it came to the exams
everyone takes as a 15/16 year old in the UK I distinctly remember thinking to
myself something like: "everyone has to be able to pass these exams, so I
should be able to pass easily without much effort since I am one of the clever
kids".

I didn't cheat, but my line of thought led me to a fairly disappointing set of
results (as you'd expect).

Even now I think of myself as "smarter than the average bear", but I have the
feeling that people were just telling me that because they were my
parent/grand parent/friendly neighbor/aunt etc and now it is SET IN STONE IN
MY BRAIN after years of reinforcement as a child.

What really confuses me though, is how can I think I am smarter than average,
yet suffer from near constant impostor-syndrome? :-)

~~~
Taylor_OD
Anecdotal as well: It's all relative.

I was homeschooled for much of my childhood and first went to a public school
my Junior year of high school. I didnt think of myself as exceptionally smart
- average at best. I was in a English class one day half way through the year
when the teacher was putting us into group. A girl he paired me up with said,
"Yay he's smart!" and that was the first time I ever thought I was a "smart"
kid. That was a town in Vermont where the public education system was not very
good.

Later when I went to college I realized I was just about average at most
things, a bit above average at some, and significantly below average at many
things (due to poor homeschooling).

As an adult I realize that I'm more intelligent than the average joe but when
I'm in a room of professors or even people who have a passion for studying and
learning I can tell I'm simply not at the same level as them.

------
meshy
This concept from Carol Dweck's research is core to Allison Kaptur's keynote
at the New Zealand Python User Group in 2015 [0]. It's a good talk regarding
the importance of having a growth mindset.

If you prefer a written version, it's available on Allison Kaptur's
website[1]. Previous discussion [2].

[0]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcc6JEhDSpo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcc6JEhDSpo)

[1]: [http://akaptur.com/blog/2015/10/10/effective-learning-
strate...](http://akaptur.com/blog/2015/10/10/effective-learning-strategies-
for-programmers/)

[2]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10370669](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10370669)

~~~
gadders
I think it's a helpful idea, but have her results been replicated ever?

------
dpflan
Being praised for being smart begets cheating because of the pressure to
continue to be perceived as smart ("The researchers believe that praising
ability is tied to performance pressure in a way that praising behavior
isn’t."). The behavior praise stressses the past while the ability praises
uphold an idea of permanent ability; perhaps the phrasing of the praise is
significant too ("'You are so smart' vs 'You did very well this time.'")
because the behavior praise adds a reference to the action; while, the ability
praise does not yet implies so.

------
adamwong246
Definitely don't tell your kids that they are "talented". I took piano lessons
for 10 years and hated every moment of it, because I was "talented."

~~~
toast0
"you have so much potential" bleh.

------
computereye
Confidence from being told you're smart might be important for child
development and performance in school. Cheating and dishonesty are morally bad
but most of the times this behavior leads to good outcome (but very bad
sometimes). Looking at it another way, it's called hacking/gaming the
system/bending the rules.

The results of the study show that kids are more likely to cheat, but they
don't show it is bad for a successful and happy life.

------
whistlerbrk
A major rule in parenting is to praise effort and hard work which strengthens
the 'internal locus of control' as opposed to seeing some positive action and
then commenting on how smart they are. People view 'smarts' as something
binary, you are or you aren't and therefore you are strengthening the external
locus of control. Eventually when smarts aren't enough, and additional
progress requires grit, those who were praised for their determination will
excel, because they know it is within them. Others who were told they were
smart will hate themselves for not being as smart as they thought. So goes the
theory.

~~~
moxious
There are no widely accepted rules in parenting, because the outcomes people
are trying to create in their kids are so wildly different. Raising kids is
like cooking a dish over a decade or more with no recipe. Imagine one set of
parents making brownies, and another trying to make Chicken Kiev. How much
chocolate should you use?

~~~
whistlerbrk
as I said, '... So goes the theory.' But as far as widely accepted rules in
parenting, pretty much any baby book will mention this.

I don't think anyone is trying to achieve an outcome where their child feels
inadequate. The point is well meaning parents can unintentionally do harm with
their words. So I don't know where you are going with your analogy.

------
S_A_P
May be an unpopular take on this, but maybe something to think about. There
are many things in school that amount to being "busy work" or pointless
excercises. Is it possible that intellegent kids see through the bs and want
to short cut what they perceive to be a waste of their time? Now the article
is light on details about the kinds of cheating that occurs, so I dont know
that fully explains it. I could see receiving praise and validation akin to a
drug and wanting to continue receiving that.

~~~
usrusr
What is the difference between busywork and training exercise? Often there is
some kind of strawman goal to make the training exercise more interesting, but
those who see through the strawman might be better off with a honest "you need
to go through these stupid repeats because more interesting challenges later
will be overwhelming of you can't do these in your sleep".

Rocky Balboa prepares for the showdown at the end of the movie with a series
of boring morning runs, not with a series of exciting bar fights. Similar
patterns apply to writing, music and even maths.

------
mnw21cam
Praise them for trying hard instead, or (as the article says) for doing very
well this time.

------
tabeth
I don't think it's worth praising effort nor results. The real thing that
should be praised imo is measurable improvement.

~~~
icebraining
What does that mean in practice, though? Take learning: is simply having
learned more an improvement? Then almost any kid qualifies. Is it learning
better/faster than before? Then what happens when the kid reaches a very high
level and eventually plateaus? Do you stop praising them despite being one of
the best?

~~~
tabeth
That's more of a pedagogical question than one with a concrete answer. To your
last point: I don't think being the best is something that merits praise,
necessarily. A 10000% improvement, whatever that means to you, is probably
more "impressive" than being the best, but only seeing fractional gains.

------
graphitezepp
Sick now I have something to blame for my chronic lying, thus clearly
releasing me from any blame for my own mis-deeds. All makes sense to me
though, I felt severe pressure for fitting into what I perceived as my 'role'
growing up, and constantly being called smart created massive pressure to
continue to be viewed that way.

~~~
phkahler
>> Sick now I have something to blame for my chronic lying, thus clearly
releasing me from any blame for my own mis-deeds.

Umm. Stop trying to place blame on others or yourself. Nothing good can come
from that. Results stem from effort, nothing more or less. Learning comes from
trying, both success and failure. Understand where you went wrong and aim to
do better in the future. When you fail again, rinse and repeat all of the
above. And remember none of this is easy, you're trying to overcome deeply
ingrained patterns of thinking and behavior.

~~~
graphitezepp
Apologies that was an attempt at humor.

~~~
phkahler
Dammit!! ;-)

------
tpeo
Reminds me of chapters eighteen and nineteen of the Tao Te Ching. Specially
the third and fourth lines of chapter eighteen:

 _" When wisdom and intelligence are born,/ The great pretense begins."_

But I'm not entirely sure if it's a permissible interpretation of the text.

------
Klockan
This surprises me since I wouldn't have guessed that 3 year olds know what
"smart" means not to mention knowing that being smart is unrelated to effort.
Could this effect actually be due to something else than growth vs innate
mindset? My guess is that the teachers experience different emotions depending
on word usage and that kids are affected by those emotions.

Previously I believed in these studies but this result makes me question the
others as well since they could suffer from the same problem.

------
franciscop
I was watching a coming of age Japanese movie yesterday (Flying Colors) and
exactly this was said there. I didn't search it at the time, but I am glad to
read this now and to have it answered.

As now I am teaching people I will strongly take it into consideration when
praising, however I wonder how much it differs from adults and kids.

------
oldsklgdfth
The most dangerous thing you can do for someone is set their expectations.

I think this is true for adults as well. Expectations add more pressure to
meet a curtain performance that otherwise wouldn't be there. That along with a
lack of solid stress coping mechanisms leads people to bend the rules.

------
rbanffy
I wonder if this is why so many great hackers are keen on bending rules.

------
robg
The more we look at "smart" the more we find it's akin to "athletic", might be
broadly true, but in practice doesn't mean much without hard work and
discipline.

Praise the effort.

------
lazyant
"the curse of the gifted" is a thing

------
1337biz
I don't like the idea that cheating is always a bad attribute. If a kid is
able to play a game for its advantage and bend the rules, I respect that more
than being able to follow the rules without thinking about how to get ahead.

~~~
ng12
Are you a proponent of larceny for the same reasons? Cheating is easy, not
getting caught is harder. I'm failing to see how being a good cheater is
admirable.

~~~
1337biz
But not getting caught means you have gained the understanding when a
situation is worth taking the risk. And this is something that you learn from
experience and an important skill in life. It is not about cheating or the
level therof. Only to understand situations where rules are in place and
getting a feeling for when to follow them and when to break them. I think this
is something very important to learn.

------
Idontknowmyuser
kids that cheat are more likely to be praised for being smart.

------
mlman
I would lik

