
From the startup who allegedly stole software and raised $2M with it - jparkside
My name is Frederick Hutson, and I am the President and CEO of Pigeonly.  I was recently made aware of a post made here:<p>https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=8227225<p>In light of the defamatory nature of the poster’s statements, I felt compelled to respond.  Well over two years ago, we entered into a work-for-hire agreement with the poster to write aspects of the software code for a beta version of our initial e-commerce platform.  Our agreement with the poster makes it clear that we own all work product produced pursuant to the agreement.  In the end, however, we were very unhappy with the quality of the poster’s work so we terminated the relationship and requested a refund.<p>In addition to my own assessment I consulted with several independent sources including a founding member of the CakePHP project (the framework the poster used). Everyone who evaluated the code said the same thing, to sum it up (in their professorial opinion) the framework was not utilized correctly which resulted in the numerous bugs and browser incompatibility issues. The truth is even if we wanted to work with the code the poster provided we couldn&#x27;t because it was flawed. So we were left with no choice but to start from scratch with a new developer.<p>The bottom line here is that through hard work and determination, we indeed built the Pigeonly platform from scratch and in no way incorporated any of the code produced by the poster.  We are very proud of what we have built at Pigeonly, our mission is to build great products that solve the type of problems most would overlook.
======
jasonkester
I think you're going to have a hard time here trying to convince a developer
community that a "refund" is something a client is entitled to in a work for
hire situation.

You ask a developer to do work for you, they do the requested work, and you
pay them. If you don't like the work, you end the relationship. But you still
have to pay them for their time.

I don't envy the next few weeks for you guys, but you definitely brought it on
yourself by stiffing a developer on an invoice. I suspect you'll come to
regret having done that.

As an ironic way of reinforcing the message, you're probably going to employ a
lawyer on a work for hire basis in the near future. He's not going to deliver
a result that you like. Try asking him for a refund and see how that works for
you.

Your best course of action is to pay the developer's invoice in full today.
Then edit the above post into an apology.

~~~
_delirium
> I think you're going to have a hard time here trying to convince a developer
> community that a "refund" is something a client is entitled to in a work for
> hire situation.

Depends entirely on the contract. Many contracts include terms giving the
client recourse in the case where unsatisfactory work product is delivered,
especially if it's a pay-for-deliverable rather than pay-for-hours-worked
contract. (But some don't, and some have more complex partial-payment or
third-party mediation clauses.)

It does sound like regardless of the contract dispute over that payment, the
original post's accusations about the code are still false, if the post here
is not lying about what code they're using. That post claimed that Pigeon.ly
is using stolen code to run their product, while Pigeon.ly claims they are not
using that code in their product. Which would still leave a payment dispute
but not a copyright issue.

~~~
seren
> That post claimed that Pigeon.ly is using stolen code to run their product,
> while Pigeon.ly claims they are not using the code in their product.

Does it really makes a difference if the code is currently running or not?
Let's say, hypothetically, the code was not production ready but used in an
alpha version to pitch an investor ?

It is impossible to prove one way or another, but I wonder, if you could sue
someone, on the basis that it "could have been used".

~~~
jparkside
This is Frederick, I can speak to our specific case. The code the original
poster provided to us was never used in investor presentations. We rebuilt the
product from scratch almost a year before we had any real traction or investor
meetings.

~~~
JackK
You've just asked for a colonoscopy.

Don't let the title of this link ("Discovering Python") fool you. It's about
the sort of case you've set yourself up for by not paying this guy in full.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ4Sn-Y7AP8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ4Sn-Y7AP8)

...and that's just the court case.

I'd be really surprised if the due diligence requirements of your funding
contracts won't also require a similar discovery process to prove that not
even a single line of code or hint of design work can be traced back to the
original developer.

Not paying this guy risks your losing what you're thinking of as "committed"
funding due to the loopholes in your funding contracts that likely protect the
funders by requiring you to expose your code and that of the original coder to
the funders' technical experts at your expense (as a part of the
contractually-required "due diligence"), delaying your actually receiving
further funding for at least the duration of the discovery process, but
possibly forever, if the funder judges there might be a risk.

It also doesn't help that you originally advertized this work as a _job_ in
California, complete with "join our team" language.
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NcKW-
lnlOMSEzBEj7ywPF5nN...](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NcKW-
lnlOMSEzBEj7ywPF5nNMGR3-WijWG7iyOtYMg8/pub). Whatever contract language you
are relying on to protect you in a labor contract dispute over monies owed for
work performed is likely superseded by California labor law, something your
funders are also likely aware of, and would likely consider a risk to their
$$$.

Finally, don't you have enough stigma to deal with being a start-up
(notoriously flaky), then adding the stigma of being an ex-con (notoriously
untrustworthy), without adding the stigma of stiffing the coder you hired on
contract (three strikes), practically cementing your start-up's status as
among those most deserving to fail?

------
joshcrowder
Requesting a refund is different from a charge-back via PayPal. Working with
any contractor be it an agency or a freelancer there is always a risk you wont
be happy.

The correct way of dealing with it is to find an agreement you can both deal
with. Not use shitty Paypal tactics to reverse the charge.

If you go for dinner and don't enjoy the food, you do not pay, leave and then
call Amex and tell them your card was stolen.

~~~
NoMoreNicksLeft
> Requesting a refund is different from a charge-back via PayPal.

Anytime Paypal's involved, the waters are so muddled who can say what
happened? To even be entitled to a refund, the person has a limited amount of
time to file a complaint.

If the complaint is filed, Paypal may do the chargeback all by itself, even if
this isn't specifically what the complainant intended.

~~~
abluecloud
Paypal nearly always sides with the buyer. If it's a service, even more so.

~~~
dleskov
My limited experience of disputing a PayPal transaction was exactly the
opposite (i.e. I was the buyer).

~~~
disbelief
My extensive experience of being a PayPal seller is quite the contrary. People
request a charge back, PayPal "encourages" them to contact you, which
essentially is just an extra step in the charge back process that they can
skip, then nearly every time the money is returned with nothing the seller can
do about it.

~~~
_delirium
Afaict it depends on the kind of transaction. For services PayPal is very
buyer-friendly. The main area in which I've consistently heard of buyers
unhappy that PayPal sides with the seller is with purchases of physical items.
It seems like PayPal accepts any kind of proof-of-shipment as conclusive in
those cases. If the seller can show a tracking code with proof of delivery,
PayPal closes the dispute in favor of the seller. This ends up making it easy
for sellers to ship severely subpar goods (e.g. relabeling used things as
new), and even carry out outright scams like shipping an empty box full of
packing peanuts, or shipping a cheap compact camera to fulfill a high-end
sale.

------
KhalPanda
A backend PHP framework causing browser incompatibility issues. Eh?

Edit: To reply to the naysayers in one fell-swoop - unless CakePHP is
identifying the browser from the request header and sending different
templates/CSS accordingly (which sounds unlikely, and like a bad idea to me),
there's no way for the framework to introduce cross-browser compatibility
issues.

Obviously the developer could create issues in the CSS or templates directly,
but that's nothing to do with the framework... which is what I was getting at.

~~~
websitescenes
I know!? I was wondering the same thing. Language is a little strange.

------
DerpDerpDerp
This post makes your company look considerably less professional than it
otherwise would have, even leaving allegations about code theft unanswered.

I might have been unsure if you were running copyrighted code, but now I know
for sure you stiffed a programmer and are trying to cover your ass after the
fact.

As a professional consideration, I won't be using any of your services.
Failing to pay an appropriate invoice for services rendered to you is a
serious black mark for a company, particularly to people who depend on
contract work to make a living.

Finally:

> Our agreement with the poster makes it clear that we own all work product
> produced pursuant to the agreement

I suspect that this is only true in the event that you completely paid the
programmer. Failing to do so likely invalidated the copyright transfer, which
is standard language to include in a contract.

I also suspect that the code you're currently running is not a clean rewrite,
meaning that the next programmer based his code on that code and likely didn't
remove literally every piece of it from the code base before starting.

This very easily could have left your company with liability regarding the
code you're no longer using, because the formation of your current code base
depended integrally on violating the copyright of the programmer you didn't
pay.

I suspect you should just shut up and stop making a bigger deal of this in
public, and that you should ask your lawyer point blank if the cost of
fighting over the liability you might not have properly controlled will be
cheaper than just paying the rest of the programmer's fee.

~~~
OzzyB
> As a professional consideration, I won't be using any of your services

Considering their product is to help prison inmates communicate -- I hope none
of us get to use their services!

~~~
hga
Well, you could be at the other end of the communications, their 4 word
description is " _Connecting Inmates to Society_ ".

In a "Three Felonies a Day" ([http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-
Innocent/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-
Innocent/dp/1594035229)) society the odds of your ending up in one or the
other position are probably greater than you think, certainly greater than you
hope.

------
calewis
Firstly, there are bugs. In everything, all the time. It's definitely not
valid reason to not pay someone. Secondly, it's YOUR responsibility as the
client to make sure what's being delivered is what you asked for.

Developers are not mind readers, you need to put yourself in a position where
you are regularly reviewing progress, you don't need to be a developer to do
this, just sit down with him/her each week and ask them to show you how the
functionality works for the user. Sounds like a case of poor product
management to me.

------
bradfa
How does airing even more dirty laundry in public around this help anyone
involved?

Both sides need to seek professional (paid!) advice on how to handle this
situation and then handle it in _PRIVATE_. Bitching about something that
happened on the Internet is not productive and will only give the other side's
lawyers things to use against you if a suit happens.

Someone needs to sue someone. Otherwise just shut up, both sides.

~~~
giarc
I think the OP has a right to say "You don't know the whole truth" simply just
to inform readers that they are only getting one side of the story. However, I
do agree that the rest should be left to private discussions between legal
representation.

------
web_
> "...the framework was not utilized correctly which resulted in the numerous
> bugs and browser incompatibility issues."

CakePHP is a server-side framework. Browser incompatibility is not going to be
an issue of CakePHP. Either you are too inexperienced to know this or you are
making a lame excuse.

I can see where this would go wrong if the developer made a complete rookie
mistake and screwing up input on forms, methods, requests, etc. But these are
the reasons for choosing and using a framework, anyone using a framework
should know this. These types of problems are abstracted and there is not a
need to reinvent the wheel. This does not add up with your story.

I am calling BS. I think you stiffed the developer and you trying to save
face. You guys were apparently not involved with the development processes of
the project, you could have had the developer resolve the problems and thus
would not have had a complaint.

In the end, this is basic business, you agreed to pay the developer for their
time. You allowed the developer to complete the project apparently without
question, pay up and move on.

~~~
shangxiao
> I can see where this would go wrong if the developer made a complete rookie
> mistake and screwing up input on forms, methods, requests, etc. But these
> are the reasons for choosing and using a framework ...

I think you just pointed what the problem might've actually been: Not using
the framework to prevent browser incompatibility. The OP didn't say that
CakePHP was the cause of the problem.

------
pnathan
* Don't stiff people, ever.

* Don't renege on agreements.

* Don't play hardball with bit players.

* Don't ask for refunds on contract work.

You biffed it[1]. Suck it up, pay the guy his money, apologize for being a
douche (maybe ask for a public acknowledgement of him receiving his money
even), move on.

[1] A good way to properly manage this sort of thing is to have milestones, on
each milestone, evaluate the contract for a terminate/no-terminate point; if
it's terminate, pay what's owed up to that point and tie the relationship off.
Which, by the way, is not uncommon advice on the internet.

------
dmix
This is service work, this isn't Walmart. You can't get a refund, the best you
can do is end contracts as soon as possible. Hiring software contract work is
always, always risky for startups. This is why. Quality varies highly and it's
expensive if you choose the wrong person.

Worse is that you did a 'chargeback' on paypal which is a dirty tactic.
Considering how awful Paypal's dispute process can be.

------
Igglyboo
Regardless of how the contract was worded or the outcome of your relationship,
requesting a chargeback on PayPal as your first option is really underhanded.

~~~
NoMoreNicksLeft
You don't "request chargebacks" on Paypal, you file complaints.

And not filing a complaint wasn't really an option. They have no recourse if
they don't file a complaint within some short period of time.

------
nevinera
Not that it's directly relevant to the claim, but 'work-for-hire' agreements
do not directly to apply to most software.

In particular, you cannot use a work-for-hire agreement to cause on-the-fly
copyright transfer as code is written, you have to include in your contract a
requirement about a separate copyright transfer.

Here's a decent write-up I found:
[http://www.metrocorpcounsel.com/articles/9954/work-hire-
doct...](http://www.metrocorpcounsel.com/articles/9954/work-hire-doctrine-
almost-never-works-software-development-contracts)

There's a separate point here though - your contractor _wrote the code_ which
you claim not to be using, but he most likely also did a great deal of
_software design_ \- data modelling, layouts, behavioral descriptions,
navigation, etc. If you are using any of _that_ , you are still using his
work.

Legally speaking, even if he was as terrible a developer as you say, you are
probably screwed for the money he was owed unless you had a lawyer write his
contract with an eye toward not paying for poor work. That's just how
contracting works.

------
crunchcaptain
NOTE to developers: This is why you shouldn't accept PayPal!

~~~
lucb1e
Or why you should get your money out of there as quickly as humanly possible.
I never leave more than ~25 bucks on there.

~~~
k3oni
It doesn't matter how much money you leave in there. Do you have a CC on file
or bank account, they might charge it, and even if you don't have paypal might
not allow you to do any more business using their platform until all is
cleared and you paid if the charge-back goes through in the client's favor.

------
issa
I once recorded a band. I thought we made a pretty good record, but they said
they were unhappy and didn't want to pay me. Then they released the record.

My point: this kind of thing isn't limited to software development. If you
benefit from someone else's work, pay them.

------
MoOmer
Pretty telling that this post's comments have become a place for us developers
to warn and caution each other on how to protect ourselves from this kind of
predation.

------
konole
> Everyone who evaluated the code said the same thing, to sum it up (in their
> professorial opinion) the framework was not utilized correctly which
> resulted in the numerous bugs and browser incompatibility issues.

How using PHP framework may result in browser incompatibility issues? Whole
processing happens in the server side for PHP, not in browser...

~~~
ceejayoz
I believe Cake is like Rails in that it puts out JavaScript code automatically
for AJAXing things.

~~~
dubcanada
While that is true, the Javascript it inserts is thoroughly tested for browser
compatibility issues.

~~~
ceejayoz
Yes, in which case "the framework was not utilized correctly" could mean
"reimplemented all that shittily rather than using the built-in stuff".

------
andhof-mt
I worked as a contract engineer for several years and here is my take:

Typically in a contract relationship you have alot less obligations than
hiring a salaried employee. At the same time, this person is using their
valuable time towards your project. As a result of this, they usually ask for
compensation which is agreed upon beforehand.

You agreed to a certain amount of compensation, and than chose not to pay.
Sometimes contractors do not meet expectation, and I've seen this happen. But
if you have already agreed upon milestones it is only appropriate to pay them
at least up to the point at which you request they quit or fire them.

If you did not agree upon milestones (which a business with your funding
should have.) You should still be paying him for the work done. Your
disagreement over his work could cause his family to go hungry for a week.
Such is the life of a contractor.

All in all, perhaps both of you performed without much regard to ethic. He did
a shoddy job and you refused to pay. But your running the business and as a
result have a lot more to lose from a bad image.

Just pay up and move on.

~~~
otakucode
You mean as an employer I can't just use 'contractor' as a way to skirt paying
payroll taxes, unemployment, workers comp, etc and then hire the cheapest dev
I can find and refuse payment if the work isn't top notch? As far as I've been
able to determine, as an employer I am entitled to software. I am entitled to
workers who produce things that amplify the earnings of my company by an order
of magnitude while paying just enough to keep the workers complacent. This is
America, is it not?

(note: This post has been sarcasm.)

------
omouse
How many hours of this developers time did you take up? Refunds don't exist
unless you're willing to go to court and if the work was actually damaging to
your company. You took a risk and you have to pay for at least the _time_ of
the developer if not their skill (since it wasn't up to your expectations).

In any case, you built the app from the scratch. The previous dev with their
previous crappy code base can go cry somewhere else and stop making defamatory
comments about your company.

------
dqmdm2
You asked for a refund, or you did a charge-back and let them find out that
way? Very different concepts. Did you request a refund, get refused, then do a
charge-back? What sort of checkpoints did you have during development?

------
AJ007
A lot of opinions and subjectivity in the comments here.

This was a business to business transaction. What it said in the contract, and
the jurisdiction that the contract fell under are about all that matter.
Anyone in this business knows the grey area work for hire programming
contracts fall under. (Depending on some legal opinions if it was "work-for-
hire" it may be completely void as work-for-hire doesn't cover programming
except under narrow cases.)

Here one party has publicly received a large sum of money. Lawyers will look
favorably on that upon taking cases. The programmers who feel they were
wronged can then decide, should we wait a while? Will the company get more
funding or will they go out of business?

A worst case scenario would be that the original contract programmers are
entitled to a large percentage of equity in this company. Whether or not the
code is used today may not even matter.

Another lesson here is to be careful who you work with. Make sure they can
accomplish what you expect. It should be damn evident pretty quick when a
developer is producing poor code (if it isn't, you shouldn't be in tech.) If
you bake defaulting in to your business model, be careful. Individuals and
small businesses remember getting screwed far longer than faceless
corporations who will just sell your debt to a collections agency.

------
dominotw
Clueless clients like these are freelancer's worst nightmare.

~~~
api
I've turned down a number of freelance gigs just from getting this kind of
"smell." It's not worth it. If I smell... umm... certain intimate hygiene
products... I run away.

Red flags I've seen include:

* Smarmy-looking marketing materials. If I visit the site and think "hmm... would I be worried about downloading this app for fear it would infect my machine?" then that's a bad sign.

* Some advance-marketing and extreme-MVP tactics are okay, but if they take it too far I see it as a red flag.

* Intuition. If I could bottle it I would charge for it and be rich. Earned through school of hard knocks, which is as far as I know the only way to get this.

* No haggling at all on price... especially when combined with other red flags. This leads me to think they're not haggling because they'll just stiff me.

* No milestones or other metrics come up in discussion.

* They don't know what they want. I've seen the screwage go both ways in contracting arrangements where the hiring party kind of just wants "something cool" with only some extremely vague sense of what it looks like. In either case it's not something I want to be a part of.

* Shell company bingo... if I do a search on the founders and they have five dozen LLCs to their names it means they'll just fold the entity and stiff everyone if it doesn't work out. "Extend yourself on others' credit, test a market, and stiff people by busting out the shell if the market doesn't pan out" is a common sketchy business practice.

------
conjecTech
Since both parties are in agreement as to what actions were taken, why don't
you show us the contract so that we can determine who acted appropriately?

~~~
zefi
This sounds like a bad idea. We are not King Solomon, nor should either party
want his help. For simplicity's sake, neither party should take the opinion of
anyone other than a lawyer on this.

~~~
diminoten
Neither party should be here on HN with this, frankly...

------
wernerb
Like other comments, I wish, that unlike your accusers, you would not engage
on the same level of public mudslinging as it will hurt you professionally.

That said, there is a significant difference between paying someone and
getting a refund, and not paying altogether.

A better recourse would have been to go to court to get your payment back, and
have independent professionals (as you already did yourself) grade the work
completed. Note that in these cases the software is graded by its "peers"
(average programmers), meaning that if the work is deemed "barely" acceptable,
you will not see your money back.

I hope you the best on this issue and also hope that hackernews will not be
used as a platform for legal/code-theft arbitration in the future.

------
zheshishei
I did a bit of amateur sleuthing(googling) out of curiosity. First, let's lay
out the hard facts:

1\. The work-for-hire occurred _at least_ two years ago. This would peg the
time frame at roughly early-mid 2012.

2\. Pigeonly started out as Fotopigeon, the photo sending portion of the
company. Telepigeon was added at a much later date.

3\. Pigeonly applied to the YCombinator Summer 2012 batch, but was rejected
[1].

4\. Pigeonly entered the NewMe Accelerator as part of their Spring 2013
batch[2]. The equity stake that NewMe took was 4%[3]. Crunchbase lists the
intial investment date at October 2012[7]

5\. Pigeonly also received a $20000 investment in December 2012 from FIU AVCC
as well as $10000 in services from New Frontier Nomads to build out a MVP[4].

6\. Frederick Hutson is placed in a work-release program in September 2011 and
is released in March 2012[5].

7\. Hutson's budget prior to December 2012 was a minimum of $2500[5].

8\. From the article: "From the halfway house, he did not have any money, so
he persuaded the photo company to do some coding for free." [5]

9\. The developer claims Pigeonly fell behind on payments[6].

Now for the assumptions/conclusions:

A. From #2 and #5 we can conclude that that the codebase in question is not in
use today.

B. Prior to October 2012, based upon #3, #4, #6 and #7, we can assume that the
total amount of funding Pigeonly had was not substantially more than $X000.

C. From #8, interpreting the identity of "the photo company" is impossible,
but if we assume that it is the developer, then D follows.

D. From #8, initial coding occurs while Hutson is in the work-release program
("halfway house"), pegging the date at some time between September 2011 and
March 2012 (from #6)

E. From B and D, it seems that #9 is plausible, if not probable.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=jparkside](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=jparkside)
[2]
[http://www.newmeaccelerator.com/2013/02/04/spring-2013-start...](http://www.newmeaccelerator.com/2013/02/04/spring-2013-startups-
announced/) [3]
[http://www.f6s.com/profile/38508](http://www.f6s.com/profile/38508) [4]
[http://avcc2012.fiu.edu/](http://avcc2012.fiu.edu/) (second image on the
carousel) [5] [http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/idea-mans-
latest-...](http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/idea-mans-latest-
inspiration-prison/2116555) [6]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8227225](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8227225)
[7]
[http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/pigeonly](http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/pigeonly)

------
webmaven
_" So we were left with no choice but to start from scratch with a new
developer."_

In that case, the solution is simple. Tell them _" We are not using the code
you delivered to us in any form. You are welcome to keep it"_.

------
dubcanada
I'm sorry but I fail to see what this post is for. You made a post complaining
about someone else's post (of which should not have been made in the first
place) trying too win over people of whom have no opinion on the matter?

Or is this just you trying to get some PR cred by saying that it was buggy/not
properly done/blah blah because a bunch of people (which could be entirely
made up) said so?

And in my professional opinion (no offense to the CakePHP developers) but
CakePHP is about as opinionated as you get with PHP frameworks, it's almost
impossible to "use it wrongly". So sorry but that sounds like a load of crock.

~~~
josegonzalez
As a CakePHP Core Developer, I disagree with the fact that you can't use the
framework wrong. Any utility/library/framework can and will be bent backwards
to accommodate the needs of the developer, and in ways the original developer
did not imagine were possible.

It's totally possible that the developer in question wrote horrid code -
though any browser issues would only be caused by html/css, something the
framework doesn't generate for you past having initial admin-type scaffolding.

I still think the guy should have gotten paid and kept the money.

------
lucb1e
Most comments here are critical and I tend to agree in that 1) it's unclear
whether you "requested a refund" or chargebacked and 2) if you don't like
someone's work, you still have to pay the hours they spent. That's the risk
when hiring someone, unless there are specific requirements that weren't met
by the developer.

On the other hand I would like to say that it's good to open the discussion
instead of, like most companies would, not responding and letting the legal
team handle anything if necessary.

------
jessebushkar
Interesting situation. One point to make: CakePHP cannot cause browser
compatibility issues. CakePHP is a backend framework and does not itself cause
client side issues. I know this is splitting hairs, but a lot of things can
contribute to client-side issues. If a design is in bad shape (ie. browser
considerations were not made during planning), then CakePHP wouldn't be a
relevant point for front-end issues.

That's all, carry on. I hope everyone's bickering and finger-pointing goes
well on this fine Friday.

------
aioprisan
Guys, this will absolutely kill your chances to hire any good developers in
the future. This is the kind of thing that you should not respond to publicly
and pay your lawyers for instead. The number of technical mistakes you made in
your post paints you in an even worse light, but at the end of the day it's a
"he said, she said" situation, where we can't compare code bases on what was
done, what the quality is, and how the code is currently used.

------
socrates1998
You used his code in some respects even if it wasn't in the final product.

If nothing more, then you knew what not to do or what was difficult to do.

Regardless, you probably should have paid him.

It all depends on the nature of the contract. If it was for services and not
for a completed project, then you absolutely needed to pay him. If it was for
a completed and usable product, then you didn't have to pay him.

Regardless, people here will think twice about working for you.

------
joshdotsmith
This is exactly why you don't go 4 months with non-payment by a client. They
stop paying? You stop working. Simple as that, and this whole issue could have
been avoided.

On the flip side, as an employer, this is why you should hire slowly and fire
quickly. And if you're nontechnical, you better be sure that your contractor
knows what they're doing.

------
spacemanmatt
This isn't even a software mistake. This is just a business risk error. The
analogy I would apply is: If you've contracted a house to be built, you should
make sure professional inspectors sign off on each critical stage before the
next one proceeds, so you don't end up with a good house on top of a bad
foundation.

------
reacweb
If you ask for a refund, I think you do not own anymore the work of the "bad
developer". If pigeonly platform has anything in common with the "bad code",
you have a copyright problem. I think you should have asked a partial refund
in order to keep property of the work done.

------
marketingadvice
Development is the same as any service, refunds don't really happen

------
AndrewKemendo
This seems like a terrible forum for both the original complaint and this
response. There doesn't seem to be any good that can come for either side or
the HN community.

------
edpichler
You should do small projects to evaluate developers you hire.

------
ianstallings
There's actually already a public forum for this type of dispute. It's called
a _court room_.

------
korzun
This is a shit storm.

You had a D level agency write the code, then you consulted (apparently) B
level players in technology field about this code.

Obviously they will find issues with it. Hell I will find issues with anything
if I really wanted to during a code audit. Without details it's all bull.

Now, you are claiming you rewrote the code internally. Your LinkedIn shows a
CTO that does not seem to have A level background and an software engineer who
used to be a network technician prior to joining your company.

Not A level team either. So I don't believe your claim that you rewrote it
'properly' after getting some sort of feedback from 'Founding' CakePHP member.

There is no way you are entitled to do refund at this point. In my
observation.

Good luck.

~~~
_delirium
> Now, you are claiming you rewrote the code internally.

It's a little ambiguous, but by "start from scratch with a new developer", I
interpreted that to mean they dumped the first contractor and hired a new
contractor, not that they rewrote it internally.

------
oldmanjay
You really have no reason to post this here. If nothing else, you'll hit the
programmer equivalent of the blue line. The people here will side with the
developer reflexively. You literally have nothing to gain.

~~~
easytiger
Err, that is complete nonsense. If there is a reasonable case to be made then
people should consider it.

~~~
sswaner
Consider it for what benefit to pigeon.ly? True there is altruistic value to
the HN community, but from a business perspective his OP is likely to cause
damage to his brand.

~~~
untog
Not really. If the original poster hadn't outed them by name it would be fine,
but as it is a very popular HN post directly says that Pigeon.ly are thieves.
I think they're reasonable to want to counter that.

~~~
DerpDerpDerp
Countering that you only stole his wallet, not his car might not have been the
best response though.

------
danielweber
Why the heck is "allegedly" in scare quotes? "Allegedly" is exactly the proper
word to use. There were allegations made. We don't know what happened.

Also, this drama playing out in public is a very bad idea for all parties
involved.

 _EDIT_ Title no longer has "allegedly" in scare quotes.

~~~
grayclhn
That's my favorite part. I clicked here expecting more evidence that they
stole. "Stole" should be in scare quotes, if anything.

