

Border Security: We can take your laptop anywhere we want for as long as we want - dominik
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/08/us_government_p.html

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mrtron
This sort of thing is always mind boggling. If someone was going to try to
smuggle data, why wouldn't they do it over the web?

This program just inconveniences the innocent while solving nothing.

~~~
jrsims
Surely they know this. They _must_. There are a few other reasons why a
government might implement pointless security exercises like these, however.

A wiser head than mine once said that in order to understand a seemingly
"pointless" bit of policy, try instead to understand what the natural result
of that policy would be, and then the "point" would become apparent.

...But I'll stop there because next thing you know, we'll be talking politics
at HN.

~~~
astine
I don't believe that the point is IP. I remember when traveling Europe, a
number of customs officials demanded that I turn on my laptop in order to
prove that it was real. I think that the concern is that an electronic device
could be used to conceal a bomb, or a similar tool.

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mixmax
I won't mention my political opinion on this, that's for Reddit, but this has
some implications for what you ought to bring across borders on your laptop.
Basically this prevents you from carrying sensitive documents such as
businessplans, patent applications, source code, etc. Clearing this from my
laptop would be a major hassle. Having it available securely online for when I
arrive would be an even bigger hassle.

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ph0rque
getdropbox.com?

~~~
mixmax
And PGP

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rbanffy
This is really sad. Such a great country founded on such beautiful ideals...
It really does not deserve this.

~~~
bsaunder
Yeah, some of the old School House Rock videos seem rather fictional to me
these days (particularly "No More Kings"). I'd love to see a modern remix of
that with some well chosen TV footage on YouTube.

~~~
boredguy8
<http://www.piratesandemperors.com/> isn't exactly what you're looking for,
but it's close.

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nickb
Your papers, please!

What's next, secret torture prisons? Oh...

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palish
That's rather Reddit-esque.

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Andys
I am interested to know at what point usa.gov starts becoming a problem for
hackers such as pg and his followers?

As someone who resides outside the USA, news articles like this cause a HUGE
problem for me if I ever wanted to visit the USA.

As a hacker I am already used to being treated to varying degrees as a 'freak'
by regular folks.. What happens if a border guard decides to pick on me and
then isn't happy when I try to explain why my laptop has no GUI? According to
what I've read, not only do I have no rights but I may be detained in
uncomfortable conditions for weeks before they send me back to my home
country.

~~~
tsetse-fly
pg and his followers? I really hate how this site feels like a cult sometimes.

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vaksel
the fun thing is when the same people who vote for these policies, then turn
around and attack China for doing the same thing.

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poutine
China doesn't do this. In a dozen times crossing the Chinese border the guards
have never even spoken to me.

You also have a cool button system at the stand which you can rate your
experience with the border guard.

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vaksel
there was a story this week where one of the senators who is pro-stuff like
this in US, was speaking out about how China is an oppressive regime because
they plan to monitor internet usage from hotels during the olympics. And this
was the same senator who is pro-warrantless wiretapping

~~~
maw
If you're going to drop anecdotes like that, please at least name the senator.

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jessewmc
<http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/07/kansas-senator.html>

Sam Brownback, Kansas.

~~~
maw
Thank you.

By the way, I think Mark Twain had it slightly wrong. He should have said
"shameless" instead of "an idiot".

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krschultz
There are two seperate issues, keeping your data secure from the government
reading it, and making sure you have a copy of the data you want on both sides
of the border in case they do take your laptop. Both require different
solutions. The first takes heavy encryption, the latter a cloud service.

Mind you the government does not have a right to your password - since it is
stored in your mind and you have to basically testify to the password it is a
violation of the 5th amendment. However if you have a physical key, they can
get a warrant for the key, so use a password and some solid encryption and
take multiple copies of data.

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greatreorx
"Mind you the government does not have a right to your password"

They also don't have to let you back in the country. If your plan is to just
not tell the agent your password, you might be in for an adventure. From
Schneier's earlier article on this subject...

"The border agent is likely to start this whole process with a "please type in
your password". Of course you can refuse, but the agent can search you
further, detain you longer, refuse you entry into the country and otherwise
ruin your day."

~~~
fallentimes
Very true. What you could do is set up a bunk login and password that deletes
everything upon being entered.

~~~
icky
Or just use TrueCrypt with a hidden volume.

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menloparkbum
Most of the discussion regarding laptop seizure at the border seems to focus
upon how to protect your data. This is important, but I already do this. I'm
an independent programmer/artist and my laptop is my main tool, and very
expensive. If my laptop was seized randomly for an indefinite time period, I'd
have to spend $3K to replace it, which is not an insignificant amount of
money.

I see this provision mostly being used by customs agents who want to steal
someone's laptop or ipod for themselves.

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pavelludiq
Only a stupid terrorist would put his secret plans to kidnap Britney Spears in
his laptop.

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signa11
it has been going on for what, about 200 years now ? just about _any_
government has retained the right to inspect _anything_ that enters it's
borders, citizenship notwithstanding. this is nothing new, it just applies to
laptops (and friends) now.

i am not saying whether it is right or wrong, just providing some context. why
the sudden outrage ?

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babul
I can understand the need for security, but policies such as this make people
like me _less_ likely to visit the U.S. unless I had to (being ethnic type and
Muslim already makes it hard enough).

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dominik
Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop or other electronic device to an
off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of
wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland
Security recently disclosed. Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's
contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation,
data decryption, or other reasons, according to the policies, dated July 16
and issued by two DHS agencies, US Customs and Border Protection and US
Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

[...]

DHS officials said that the newly disclosed policies — which apply to anyone
entering the country, including US citizens — are reasonable and necessary to
prevent terrorism.

[...]

The policies cover 'any device capable of storing information in digital or
analog form,' including hard drives, flash drives, cell phones, iPods, pagers,
beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover 'all papers and other
written documentation,' including books, pamphlets and 'written materials
commonly referred to as "pocket trash..."

~~~
jherber
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized."

The Constitution is our Contract with the Government, and the Judicial Branch
our process. Writing your Representative helps, but giving to lawyers who
fight and defend the Constitution from overreaching/overreacting Government
Officials is equally important and extremely patriotic IMO.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
I don't want to go political here, but I'd simply remind you that customs has
_always_ had the ability to inspect and detain materials crossing the border,
whether your personal property or not. It is not unreasonable for the federal
government to control materiel moving over the border. There's not even a
"reasonable clause" notion here, as a complete and thorough search are
asssumed at ports of entry -- otherwise the government would be defrauding the
social contract by not being concerned enough about what's happening there.

How else would you run a border? Hey guys, what do you feel like showing me
that you're moving? This laptop smells like it has encrypted money on it?

They're not investigating a crime, they're controlling movement. That's their
job.

There used to be (and still is, I think) a crime of carrying so much
undeclared cash across the border -- whether or not its yours or not. One
could argue that the IP contained on a laptop easily could be more valuable
than the cash limit, but there are no similar regulations on IP movement. With
cell phones becoming e-wallets, seems like it would be easy to walk across the
border with a couple hundred k loaded on your cell phone. Strange world, eh?

Encrypt your data and put it in the cloud. Much easier to do than either
figuring out what a perfect world would look like or implementing it.

~~~
icey
$10,000 is the limit for transporting undeclared "financial instruments"
across the border.

This can be in the form of cash, certificates of deposit, bonds, stocks, and I
suppose anything else that has the semblance of real money (gold, etc).

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prakash
Looks like a good idea to apply to YC with!

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redsymbol
Not sure why people downmodded this comment. Government policies like this
pose a real personal and business privacy problem. Any service that solves it
in a convenient way surely has the potential to be profitable.

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tocomment
Does this violate the 4th amendment or is there some kind of exception for
border crossing? (Personally I don't think there should be.)

