
Go East, Young Man - wallflower
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/09/opinion/china-as-a-destination-for-job-seekers.html?_r=1
======
jakemcgraw
I'd like to add a bit of personal perspective to this op-ed.

I personally know the author, Jon Levine, in fact, I'm the guy that got him
the "dead-end job" with my family's firm. He's a member of the "I have an Ivy
League degree, I deserve a job" a set. Never mind his degree was in history
and political science, he felt entitled to a prestigious, high paying job in
the worse economy in 70 years.

After a 5 month job search without a callback, I stepped in, did a favor and
got him an entry level position at a very small PR firm. This was not a "dead-
end job", he was the first hire at a newly formed company, there was
definitely an opportunity for him to grow his career in a highly lucrative
field. But, being that he went to NYU and Columbia (notice the name dropping
in the article), growth didn't come fast enough for him.

We accommodated him (time off, flexible hours) while he spent two months
trying to find another job. When nothing stateside panned out, he gave us
three days notice before leaving for China. It's been a very surreal day for
me, I'm incredibly disappointed that he chose to criticize a job which he only
gained through my action.

I don't know whether any of you should go to China, but hopefully I've given
you a little perspective on why he did.

TL;DR: I know author, he couldn't hack it stateside, took China job as last
restort, not as some enlightened life decision.

~~~
scrollbar
What you did to help seems very friendly and supportive, but it's apparent to
me that you're taking out some unmentioned frustrations in this post. Truly,
it sucks to give someone a shot and not get the thanks you deserve for that.
This guy sounds like a flake.

I still think that it's possible that you did a nice, commendable thing to
help him, AND it was a dead-end job to him. It sounds like changing things up
was exactly what he needed. Also, moving to a (very) foreign country to make a
living doesn't sound easy- I think it's easier for me to "hack it" here in
Silicon Valley than to move overseas in search of happiness.

Different strokes for different folks.

~~~
jakemcgraw
I'll admit that the base pay wasn't great, though most compensation was bonus
based, and the work load was chaotic (very busy one day, nothing for four
days), but here's a timeline and I'll let you judge:

He joined us in August... We launched in November... He started shopping for
another job in January... He quit in February...

He is my girlfriend's childhood friend's younger brother. After doing a year
of postgrad at Columbia, he spent April to August looking for job, which did
not pan out. I was putting together all of the tech for this firm, I knew they
had an entry level position.

There was no interview process, no whiteboards, no nothing, I said "Hire this
guy, he's hard working and smart, and look at those prestigious degrees!" They
met him and then offered to hire him next day. So, this guy went from no call
backs in a five month job search to being offered a job after a single
interview.

Of course he felt that we were under utilizing his skills (he felt like a
glorified secretary), but PR is a networking business, clients want to talk to
the guy they've worked with for 20 years, not some dude who started a month
ago.

I don't mean to drag all this out into the public, but, this op-ed is the
definition of adding insult to injury. I like to make connections, if I know
about an opportunity, I really enjoy putting people together. It's something
I've always done and now I'm going to question myself every time because this
blew up so badly.

~~~
powertower
> I'll admit that the base pay wasn't great, though most compensation was
> bonus based, and the work load was chaotic (very busy one day, nothing for
> four days), but here's a timeline and I'll let you judge:

What you're describing does kind of sound like some type of a dead-end job.
Little pay, fucked up hours, chaotic environment.

> He joined us in August... We launched in November... He started shopping for
> another job in January... He quit in February...

Sounds like he stuck it out for as long as he could. Two months with no pay
will do that.

> I don't mean to drag all this out into the public, but, this op-ed is the
> definition of adding insult to injury.

All this over one line that names no-one...?

"NOT long ago, I was stuck in a dead-end job near Greenwich, Conn."

I'll assume there is more to this story.

~~~
jakemcgraw
He was paid from day one (in August).

Google author name and see if you can figure out his place of work.

------
yangtheman
I didn't move to China, but Korea, working for a large conglomerate. I was
there for two years. I wasn't particularly young, but in early 30's with two
kids. There were several expat from the US.

IMHO, the move to the East is worse for Asian Americans than for Caucasians.

Why? Because they expect certain things from what they consider the same race
than Caucasians. Over and over, I have seen Caucasians getting a lot of
leeways and tolerance for their behaviors, as they look very different from
Asian Americans. For Asian Americans, especially those Korean Americans who
could speak the language in Korea, they expected the same behaviors as native
Koreans. If you don't display what they expected socially, you get cold
shoulders. It's even worse in business settings where everyone plays savvy
office politics in ever subtle ways. If you can't read or play them, your
career will not go anywhere. I've seen VP-level Korean American guys getting
crushed, after moving to Korea to jumpstart their careers. I've heard the same
from many Japanese Americans who moved back to Japan. I am not sure if it
would be the same in China. But, I've also read about Chinese companies hiring
Americans or Caucasians for nothing but to increase their credibility for
being able to hire a Caucasian.

So if you are a Caucasian, yeah, it could be worth it. As a second or later
generation Asian Americans, probably not so much.

~~~
eddy_chan
+1 for this, it sucks being a westernized Asian precisely because you're
getting squeezed in between 2 cultures when you try to work in Asia. China is
worse than Korea or Japan, if you are ethnically Chinese then you can expect
to be treated as a Chinese Citizen in China.

Multinational companies in Australia have gone so far as to be advised not to
send ethnically Chinese executives to do business in China see here:
[http://www.smh.com.au/business/fears-beijing-targeting-
ethni...](http://www.smh.com.au/business/fears-beijing-targeting-ethnic-
chinese-executives-20111225-1p9jq.html)

I haven't tried to work there but when I am in China I basically 'act local'.
I wouldn't think about working there because as you said I would get crushed
politically and socially in an office environment as my language skills
wouldn't be up to par and my thought processes would be too Western when I
would be expected to act Chinese.

~~~
alexcharlie
Curious if you think there are any places somewhere globally where being a
Westernized Asian is advantageous the way being a Caucasion is advantageous in
Asia.

~~~
zhemao
I think only Caucasians enjoy the benefit of being a privileged group wherever
they go.

~~~
danso
Louis CK has a great bit about how white people can take a time machine and
end up anywhere and be worshipped (at least, in the past):
<http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Louis-C.K.-Chewed-Up/70108425>

------
danso
> _Many critics have rightly pointed out the shocking failures of the Chinese
> food safety system — the most famous being the tainted-baby-formula scandal
> of 2008. But what you may not know is that China meted out swift justice in
> that case to the perpetrators. That is more than can be said for the
> handling of many corporations in the United States that have harmed their
> consumers and remain unpunished._

Wow, what a naive fool. Does he really think justice was meted out through
these hurried executions? Quick justice is often a symptom of scapegoating.

~~~
nir
Exactly. If you like this kind of "swift justice" you're going to love China,
I guess.

The comparison between Fox News and CCTV is ridiculous as well - Fox might
suck, but it's not a government channel and is only one voice in a wide
spectrum of US media.

It's one thing when you read this naive BS, from entitled middle class
Westerners who never even met anyone who actually dealt with the harsh side of
an authoritarian regime, in Reddit or HN. To see this in the NY Times is truly
disappointing.

~~~
xxbondsxx
I agree, this guy really hasn't seen the ugly side of China if he's writing
like this. It's a scary goddamn place, and as much as everyone on Reddit/HN
complains about the US, we're still lightyears ahead of China horror stories.

~~~
gbog
What horror stories? Do you mean kids regularly gunning their schoolmates? oh,
sorry, that's in the USA?

~~~
zhemao
No, horror stories like infants dying of tainted baby formula because farmers
tried to increase the protein count of their milk (by lacing it with a known
poison). Like a child dying from being run over twice by cars because nobody
thought to pick him out of the street. Like parents abandoning or killing
newborn girls because they wanted a boy. Like criminals enslaving young men to
work at brick kilns. Every once in the while, there might be some lunatic
gunman in the US (as there are in every other country). In China, there is a
pervasive sense that human life is cheap.

~~~
gbog
The tragic occurrences you cite are not specific to China, even if some
Chinese themselves seem to think so.

~~~
angersock
Not tragic. Didn't happen to Americans. :)

(See what I did there? Stop being so blindly nationalistic--admit that China
has some pretty heinous issues re: food safety and consumer safety/confidence
[fair or not])

------
imrehg
Instead, I'd say come to Taiwan. All the same good food (or rather even
more!), friendly people, great nature, multicultural society, technology
everywhere, foreigners are treated well, entrepreneurial spirit, more customer
protection (and people stand up for themselves) - and don't have to fight the
Great Firewall and political decrees at every step.

(Been here for more than three years and counting:)

~~~
tokenadult
Been there. Done that (twice). My two three-year stays in Taiwan were some of
the happiest days of my life, and both times led to new career opportunities
when I returned to the United States. Taiwan is wonderful for immersion in an
entrepreneurial, forward-looking culture of people who are happy to live free.

~~~
ilamont
I did the same thing -- two three-year stints in Taiwan (separated by six
months in China and SE Asia). I arrived in 1993 with a duffel bag and about
$1000, and proceeded to make a life there. The learning curve was steep, but
it was wonderful. I learned Mandarin, got my career off the ground, made tons
of expat and local friends, traveled all over, and generally had a fantastic,
eye-opening adventure.

------
NnamdiJr
Article's espousal of moving "East" here seems a little misguided to me. I've
been working in Beijing for the better part of 2yrs and from what I've seen,
basically wouldn't suggest moving out here unless you're in it for the long-
haul.

The "white-hot" job prospects the author talks about are mainly for English
teachers. If you take a look at the job sites he listed, 90%+ of the positions
are English teaching. That is all well and good as most Eng teachers here DO
make easy money, enjoy a good lifestyle, and get to explore Asia, but all the
while they are really just killing time... most leave after not too long and
very few are able to succesfully use it as a channel to career
advancement/development.

The people who should really think about moving East are those who have
developed some real skills & experience other than just being a "Native
English speaker", and know there will be some kind of deep-relationship with
Asia throughout their careers. I would think that these people are likely to
learn the language, stay longer, and do a lot better.

For CS grads or people in tech, if you make the move to one of the larger
int'l companies you can make up to 3/4 of the salary back home and live a
better lifestyle, AND end up saving more.

Again, like other's have said, it's not for everyone, but for some it can be a
great move.

------
MengYuanLong
Levine takes an approach to China very much in contrast to my own. From the
article, it seems he spends most of his time travelling, relaxing with other
expats, and teaching students that are excited about English. As for myself,
most of my time is consumed by studying Chinese (a Mercer-like feat), work,
and meals with friends (the cheap food costs make dinners out an everyday
occurrence, not a once a week treat).

Despite the differences, we both seem to possess the same feeling that life in
China possesses a relaxed quality that is hard to find. Even though banks,
train tickets, and anything requiring an ID (for instance, internet cafes) can
be a complete bureaucratic nightmare, day to day life has a certain
peacefulness to it. Perhaps that peacefulness stems from the acceptance that
the world around you is hectic and chaotic in a way that is at least somewhat
hidden in the U.S.

Of course, other posters are correct in their assertion that you pay for that
life in a number of ways. Pollution, reduced wages, poor internet, drinking
water from jugs, hospitals operating while still under construction...But I
for one feel it is worth it.

For those who have not, I strongly urge you to visit the country. I think you
may be surprised by how much it differs from your expectations.

As an aside, I find it humorous that the OWS movement inspired him to move to
China. The income inequality here is arguably worse than in his own area. You
can buy a scarf on the street for 3 USD, walk a few kilometers and buy one for
100 USD inside a glitzy shopping center. Those at the top live lives of
princely luxury compared to those at the bottom selling roasted sweet potatoes
from their bikes.

~~~
IsaacL
"Even though banks, train tickets, and anything requiring an ID (for instance,
internet cafes) can be a complete bureaucratic nightmare, day to day life has
a certain peacefulness to it. Perhaps that peacefulness stems from the
acceptance that the world around you is hectic and chaotic"

Yes! That's my experience as well. I lived in Hong Kong as well, where you can
experience Chinese culture in an international city, eat whatever cuisine you
want, and enjoy a very convenient lifestyle. High-class shopping centres, fun
nightlife, and the MTR runs like a Swiss watch.

Still, I didn't like it as much as Chengdu, which is sprawling, polluted and a
nightmare to get around. But living there was strangely relaxed and
adventurous - anything can happen, so you don't try to fight it.

------
mattdeboard
"Pollution is horrible, the country is governed by a strict authoritarian
regime, and I can't guarantee you won't be poisoned, but come! There are
jobs!"

I am 100% sure China is as socially diverse as the United States, and there
are lovely people and places. Really though, this is about as tepid a "come
hither" piece as I've ever seen.

~~~
kahawe
Also, the government does totally not fake numbers, does not actively buy cars
and other products to create temporary, fake demand spikes to attract western
companies to produce in China but only under license in a Chinese owned and
-run factory oh and personally I am totally not convinced that they just
downright play with the global economy and bend our own Western capitalism to
their advantage in very questionable ways.

------
seanmcdirmid
I have worked in Beijing for more than 4 years as a researcher for a big
American company (Microsoft). Its not that bad here but you definitely have to
fight the traffic, pollution, and the great firewall. The political situation
is mostly transparent to us, except via web blocking and some weird archaic
events (military parades anyone?). Other places in China are a bit better in
terms of environment but then those cities are not as comfortable in western
niceties (e.g., coffee shops).

If you are experienced in tech, you can always get a job here that pays fairly
well; maybe 80% of what you could make back home if you are just a good
developer, more if you are very experienced or in management. The talent
market in China is very skewed toward junior workers, and so experience is
very much desired. The tech scene here is not very deep, although their are
some entrepreneurs who do startups (most of them that I know of are in mobile
gaming).

~~~
danoprey
Agreed. The tech scene here grows every day, there seems to be some sort of
start up event every other weekend.

~~~
gbog
Yep. In the web company where I work we hire 2/3 new employees per week.

------
beilabs
I was working out of Dalian and Beijing for a number of years straight after
my postgrad as a software engineer / project manager. Great experience,
learned the language, was given a lot of responsibility and it was either sink
or swim.

Lots of 16+ hour days, they worked me hard but I learned an awful lot. It's a
great way to see the world, travel and get exposed to a completely different
work culture / ethic.

It's not for everyone but it is definitely an experience that you won't
forget!

------
IsaacL
Surprised no-one here is talking about programming/startup jobs in China. I
know there is a small Chinese-based hacker set on HN, so maybe they'll show up
later to chime in with more expert opinions.

Basically I've been planning for a few years to make China the focus of my
20s, thinking that being at the convergence of technology and a rising
superpower would be pretty powerful. Taught English there in 2007, travelled
there again in 2009, studied in HK in 2010 and interned for a games startup in
Chengdu last year.

Still, my current plan for the next few years is to stay in the UK - the main
reason is that salaries for programmers in China just aren't that attractive.
Also, if you want a serious career in China (in whatever sector - counting
entrepreneurship as a career here) - a lot of people have advised me that it
helps to gain a track record in the West before making a serious move out
there.

Note: the following is a mix of experience, second-hand reports and
conjecture, I'd really appreciate someone in the know telling me where I'm
wrong.

As a graduate programmer competing with Chinese graduates, it looks like
salaries are between 5000 and 10000 RMB/mo, depending on location. If you can
somehow leverage your foreignerness, you can get more, though I can't think of
many ways to do that in the tech industry. Experienced technical management is
in high demand, but not really an option straight out of university. Joining a
big tech company (Tencent, Baidu, Shanda etc) and hoping to work your way up
isn't that great an option, since there's no reason you'll be able to
outcompete your hungrier Chinese colleagues. Joining a startup, maybe, but
you'll still have to find a way to contribute beyond programming to make a
better salary than the next FOB laowai teaching English or pretending to be a
DJ. Starting a startup is of course an option, but even riskier out there (I'd
feel able to start a tech startup in the West right now, wouldn't think of
doing it in China without a few more years real-world experience).

Anyone actually working in China's tech industry with alternative views? Would
love to hear them.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I make much more than 10K a month in Beijing without leveraging my foreign-
ness, most of my Chinese colleagues pull similar salaries. A new graduate from
a decent school could expect to make 18 or 20K a month, a newly minted PhD
probably more. Laowai startups here often don't pay well and look for low-end
talent accordingly, its nice to access low-end talent but you get what you pay
for. For my friends who run startups in the 'jing, it works for them but just
barely.

One of my American friends just did a stint at a big Chinese tech company. He
was willing to immerse himself, but the cultural differences were just too
great. They had time cards for software developers for crying out loud (and
no, it wasn't a consulting company)! Suffice it to say he's decided to do a
startup.

------
awda
As far as economic disparity between rich and poor, social liberties, and
corruption: China is far, far worse than the US. Maybe some people can find
jobs in China teaching English, but you throw away a lot of other things. This
article is optimistic at best.

~~~
Volpe
> As far as economic disparity between rich and poor, social liberties, and
> corruption: China is far, far worse than the US

Citation? The only data I can find, shows they are on par with disparity
between rich and poor. What data are you sourcing that conclusion from?

Social liberties, very difficult to measure. But I am interested to why you
think China is far worse? If you mean they have less "Rights" (from the US
Bill of Rights)... then that is probably true of most countries. But in terms
of Social mobility, I'd intuitively say that china probably compares
favourably to the US

Corruption is certainly an issue, China (75th) ranking far worse than the US
(25th) on the Corruption Perception Index[1]. But keeping in mind it is a
perception index, and doesn't adjust for bias.

I don't think the article is optimistic, I think it's realistic, China is a
booming economy with a lot of job opportunities for "Westerners", compared to
the US, with it's shrinking (or shrunken) economy...

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index>

~~~
nate_meurer
I'm seeing the same data you are; China and the U.S. look about the same in
terms of wealth and income distribution within their respective populations.
Wikipedia provides a handy reference:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality)

------
Fivesheep
as a new us immigrant who is originally from mainland china and lives in the
us for 1.5 years, I have a totally different opinion with this article. the
advice I always give my friends who still live in china is 'leave china as
soon as possible, for yourself and your family'. Saying cctv gave fair news
just make me laugh. and food was great? he didn't know the extracted oil from
drain or dead animal? the freedom you have in china is to download pirated
softwares/videos and make your free speech when facing the wall. well, those
were just my complaints, but what I didn't agree with this guy was he didn't
see the big picture. china is now facing a dead end, and I don't see a way to
turn around. the big conflict between gov and citizens, the huge gap between
rich and poor, the aging population....

~~~
pradocchia
I hope China finds its way out of these problems with minimal duress.

------
OstiaAntica
I suspect that many more Chinese, given the option, would emigrate to the
West.

~~~
pradocchia
I worked in Shanghai, 2001-2005, at an established multi-national. Most of my
Chinese colleagues at the time have either already emigrated, or would like
to. Yes, there are opportunities in China, and but even for these rather well-
advantaged folks, life looks better elsewhere.

And it's more about education, housing, health and lifestyle than pure earning
potential. Not having to game the system by having your second child in HK,
for example. That would be nice. Or not worrying so much about food quality.
Not having to bribe teachers for equitable treatment at school. Not having to
prepare for a monolithic college entrance exam. Actually owning your own
property outright, at less spectacularly inflated prices. etc & so on.

------
riams
As someone who's recently made the move to China (Hong Kong, and not teaching
English), I can say it's a great way for native English speakers to jump start
their careers and get responsibilities much faster than at home.

Hong Kong is a bit easier getting used to due to a free internet, less
pollution, and stricter food safety laws. But I guess there are more
opportunities on the mainland.

~~~
meric
How does your salary in Hong Kong compare to your previous jobs? Is it at
least on the same binary order of magnitude?

Grad jobs in Australia offer at least the minimum wage of $40k per year. Note
that I haven't seen a single job offering only $40k. The very very low end of
what I've saw is $45k+. I've heard of offers of over 100k for really talented
graduates.

I asked around in Hong Kong, and graduates there are only offered around
HKD$15000 a month. That is only $25k per year.

I haven't mentioned the long working hours, expensive rent, and relatively
expensive cost of living compared to the salary.

~~~
latch
I moved to HK over a year ago. This is my take:

Top paying jobs are with international banks. You'll make pretty much the same
here as you will working for them in London or NY (so, 100K+ yr, for example).
From there, salaries slide to ridiculously low levels. (EDIT: it's my
understanding that, due to the current economic climate in Europe, most of
these banks aren't hiring).

It's a pretty bad place for any passionate programmer to end up. There's an
overall lack of passion, risk is avoided at all costs, and creativity doesn't
exist. It isn't just in the banks either...there's something culturally
different.

I've never worked in a factory..but in my mind, it's inbetween working for a
real startup and working on a factory floor. Which explains the long hours you
mention...when you work 10hours every day, it's hard to be super passionate
and creative.

As for cost of living. Rent is expensive. If you want to eat at a fancy
$300-a-plate restaurant every night, you can (and probably a different one for
many months). You can buy fancy clothes and expensive jewelry. But, if you are
willing to, Hong Kong lets you live cheaply (rent aside). Remember that taxes
are ~16%, with no sales tax and no capital gains taxes. If you make $150K,
your take home is ~125K.

~~~
OstiaAntica
Americans are also subject to U.S. taxes on the amount over $92,000.

[http://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/resources/blog/expat-
tax...](http://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/resources/blog/expat-taxes-
explained-filing-taxes-as-american-living-hong-kong/)

~~~
latch
Right, sorry, I knew that. I'm Canadian and things are a bit different. Canada
and Hong Kong don't have a tax treaty, which could be horrible for me. However
unlike the US which requires that you pay taxes for 7 (??) years after
leaving, Canada lets you declare yourself as a non-resident and forgo paying
any Canadian taxes going forward.

You need to be very careful (hire a good accountant) because you don't want to
owe back taxes + interest + penalties if you ever come back, but it's doable.

I've heard of people leaving Canada for 10 years, not paying any Canadian
taxes...grossing millions..coming back and having the Canadian Revenue Agency
(CRA) say that, in their eyes, they were always residents and having to pay
500K+ in taxes/interest/penalties. (a big part of it is how many ties you keep
in Canada, if you own a house, or your wife/kids stay in Canada, those are
"primary" ties, and make you a Canadian-resident for tax-purposes).

~~~
bodyfour
> However unlike the US which requires that you pay taxes for 7

Not 7, "infinite". You can be a US citizen by birth, leave when you are a week
old never to return, and owe tax on everything you earn in your lifetime above
the ~$93K/yr limit.

The only way to completely avoid the US claiming taxes is to renounce your
citizenship... although if you do that for economic reasons they can legally
prevent you from ever visiting again (although I understand that's rarely if
ever actually applied)

It's a mess if you're a US profesional with any aspirations of working abroad.
On the other hand, our billionaires tend to stay put rather than fleeing to
Switzerland so the policy does have its desired effect I guess.

The issues with the CRA are pretty much the same all over the world: people
try to game the system by claiming they moved away while "really" living in
their home country. If you make enough money away from your home tax authority
expect to show some documentation. Even in the US this happens with people who
claim to have moved to a low-tax state while still maintaining a residence in
a different state; you need to prove you weren't within the state's borders
for more than X days or the tax man will want their take. Nothing unusual
about Canada in that regard.

~~~
latch
Once upon a time if you stayed out of Canada for 2 years, you were pretty much
guaranteed to be exempt. Now it's more subjective.

Nevertheless, I agree it isn't bizarre or unique. The lack of a tax treaty
with Hong Kong is unfortunate though. It's not even on the table from what I
understand.

------
ekianjo
After having lived in Asia for about 5 years now, I can relate with that post,
at least in terms of optimism. Back in Europe I felt that everything was slow
and stuck in time, but in Asia you get a feeling that things are actively
moving forward, that there is life in the streets. Societies in Asia (I
generalize on purpose) feel more dynamic overall, there is a clear sense of
freedom flowing in the air.

~~~
zhemao
Freedom? Which parts of Asia were you in? Certainly not the PRC.

~~~
ekianjo
I do not know what you mean exactly. Of course in China individual liberties
are restricted, but at the same time government power is not unlimited and do
not reach every corners of society. In many ways, the streets feel like a free
market place: you can bargain prices, people sell what they want and there is
a lot of exchange taking place that you would probably never seen in the US or
Europe.

Therefore I mean "Freedom" in that sense. I am not talking about Freedom on
paper/in terms of rights. How much you feel free and how much you really are,
are very different things.

------
hunvreus
Disclaimer: I am CS engineer and have been working in China for the past 7
years (always in tech).

I am not sure that representing China/Asia as the next Eldorado for Westerners
is that smart; yes it can be a land of opportunities, but I fail to see the
real future you would have in "teaching English" in Beijing, Shanghai or
anywhere else down here. It is a precarious position (schools are notorious
for screwing around with visa, salary and basically anything you should be
entitled to), competition is fierce (many disillusioned foreigners who could
not find a job and settle for it), with a steady input of fresh candidates.

Now, if you are indeed an English teacher and are trying to build a career
abroad, why not? If you are a history graduate settling for an easy to land
position, well... One of the commenters (stupandaus) mentioned that Chinese
locals usually refer to them as "Losers Back Home"; foreigners do too.

I think however that the excitement of the poster is genuine; China does
indeed exhale that energy that you may find hard to find in Western countries
(especially Europe). It is a very challenging environment, one that does not
necessarily care much if you fail or succeed, but it can be very rewarding if
you are up to the task; you can be put very quickly in front of
responsibilities and opportunities that would demand a fair amount of
experience, connection and luck in the Western world. However, you are still
expected to work your ass off if you want to build a serious/successful
career, maybe even more fiercely in some aspects than in Northern America or
Europe.

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localhost3000
He's been there a year and can put in print that this is the 'best decision of
his life' ? Seems a bit premature, doesn't it?

------
newhouseb
> The effects of the Great Recession of 2008 may be felt in the United States
> for years, but they barely scratched China.

It barely scratched China in metropolitan areas, maybe, but certainly had a
large effect in manufacturing hubs like GuangZhou (see documentaries like "The
Last Train Home").

As an aside: my parents recently made this move after seeing their two sons
live in Taiwan on Rotary Exchange (mid-50s, caucasian, from a podunk town in
upstate New York) and are having the time of their lives, but the wealth
disparity in mainland China is certainly stunning if not somewhat depressing.

------
josscrowcroft
Yeah, as with many of the commenters here, I'm not convinced about this
article (I live in HK)

As for this masterpiece of bad science: _"For my money, CCTV News English, a
channel offered by China’s major state television broadcaster, is more fair
and balanced than Fox News."_

I put it to you. Can you think of any major news channel _less_ fair and
balanced than Fox News?

It's a non-starter for a comparison, unless he's trying to make the (mostly
valid) point that American news is a complete joke.

------
trevelyan
Not making minimum wage in the US? Come make less in China!

~~~
xtqctz
The market rate for (caucasian)private school English teachers in urban China
is between 100-150 yuan/hour ($15.80-$23.75). The cost of living is higher
than you would imagine, but you can live quite inexpensively once you get used
to the city.

That being said, I do not personally find such teaching jobs enjoyable. And
the author, it seems, is not well acquainted with the drawbacks (or
advantages) of living in China. (Read Peter Hessler for an accurate account.)

~~~
trevelyan
State schools pay maybe 7000 RMB per month for 20 hours of classroom teaching
per week. Private schools double that for nearly double the workload.

I'd guess most teachers are probably pulling 15k USD per year between their
main job and a couple of tutoring or corporate gigs on the side. It's better
money than sitting in the basement, but it helps to keep things in
perspective: a minimum wage job in California makes close to 24k these days
and you can drink the milk.

------
candre717
Valid suggestion, but I don't think a move makes up for the perceived
inadequacies in the States. Bugs, after all, are to be fixed, not
circumvented.

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epynonymous
excellent, i went east back in 2006 (japan, then china), it has been one of
the best decisions of my life, living in shanghai now. i work in software
development and the market and talent is red hot!

i disagree with the author in regards to the food scandals, this is a really
crappy part of society here and i can't think of any scandal against citizens
worse in modern day history.

------
chadp
And teaching English is not a dead end job?

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stupandaus
Chinese people often refer to those like the author as "Losers Back Home." It
is exceedingly common to run into Westerners who couldn't hack it in the West
that think they are minor gods in Asia because of their native English
speaking ability and sudden attractiveness to large throngs of females.

The success

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moocow01
Well I suppose thats one way to lower our unemployment rate here in the US

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rkon
This may actually be one of the worst times to move to China if you're looking
for a fresh start. They've been on a lending binge that's created a massive
fixed asset bubble (mainly real estate), and it looks like the correction has
recently begun. It's a lot like what happened in the U.S. and Dubai, although
on a much larger scale and without the fancy derivatives (at least not yet).

Local governments have actually been _forcing_ developers to borrow more money
and buy land from them because they depend on those sales to meet their
financial obligations. Real estate agents are offering luxury cars and bars of
gold when you purchase an apartment, not to mention buy one get one free deals
(the gold and luxury cars allow them to mask declines in the prices of
apartments because list prices are still high).

I would stay far, far away... at least for the next 6-12 months so we can see
how hard the landing will be. A lot of wealth is potentially going up in smoke
and that could wreak havoc on their domestic demand, which is what they were
planning to rely on in order to continue their rapid GDP growth (which we now
know has been largely artificial).

~~~
Volpe
Citations for any of your claims/assertions? Sounds like FUD to me. Some
specifics on the following:

> Local governments have actually been forcing developers to borrow more money
> and buy land from them

> Real estate agents are offering luxury cars and bars of gold when you
> purchase an apartment

> GDP growth (which we now know has been largely artificial).

~~~
rkon
I wish it weren't true, since any economic collapse has global implications,
but they've dug themselves into a serious hole and haven't made any drastic
moves to pull themselves out.

Numerous sources (and much better explanations of China's precarious financial
situation) are in this post [http://chovanec.wordpress.com/2011/12/24/china-
data-part-1a-...](http://chovanec.wordpress.com/2011/12/24/china-data-
part-1a-more-on-property-downturn/) It's a blog by an American economist who
teaches at Tsinghua University, the top ranking school in China.

This sort of news is particularly distressing to hear as the bubble is only
beginning to burst: _"A source at a state-owned property firm in one
provincial capital told Caixin that local agencies don't have enough money to
cover basic healthcare costs or pay teachers._ "
<http://english.caixin.com/2011-12-19/100339928.html>

~~~
seanmcdirmid
rkon is basically right. My landlord isn't selling his apartment because the
prices are too high and so no one is buying, WTF? The real estate market here
is incredibly bizarre and opaque.

Its not entirely clear how China will dig itself out of its current situation.
On the one hand, perhaps they can grow out of these problems, but their are
severe structural problems that need to be reformed sooner or later. A crash
would bring those changes but it would be painful for all of us.

I naively have most of my savings in a Chinese bank. This year I'm thinking
about diversifying since a banking collapse is always possible and its not
clear how we would be insurancd.

~~~
vishaldpatel
So, your landlord is waiting for the market to crash rather than find someone
to buy the place and still walk away with a possibly decent profit? Or did he
purchase the home at an inflated price to begin with?

~~~
Maarten_pi
It's been hard in China. The realestate prices are heavily inflated and nobody
wants to buy at the moment. Prices are already dropping. Selling is really
hard.

When you bought a property in the last few years, selling it now means taking
a loss.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
It's not just that. The real estate companies collude to keep prices high, and
won't let landlords consider lowering their prices (they won't market the
house, and you can't really market it yourself for some reason). A lot of
craziness in this sector, something has to give.

~~~
hessenwolf
Scary stuff. Where are you based? How is life in China comparing to the
Republic?

------
kahawe
I am glad Jonathan enjoys seeing and living in another place and it has always
been a dream of mine to live/study/work in Asia but one question: is it not a
HUGE trade-off to move to a place where the ONLY thing you can actually do is
teach English and English culture? Because for all the other jobs, they will
rather take a local and for any leading positions they will definitely not
take you and unless you actually have money to invest, they could not care
less about you.

Considering how I am European, it would also mean a HUGE trade-off in social
security and insurance, health care and other things.

