
'All You Americans Are Fired' - mudil
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicagarrison/all-you-americans-are-fired
======
grecy
Exactly this also happens in Canada.

A business (usually a chain like Walmart, McDonald's, Canadian Tire, etc.)
opens and wants to pay staff minimum wage. No Canadian will take that rate of
pay, because the standard of living it provides is too low, especially in high
cost of living areas like the North. In that case the business should either
pay more, or it doesn't have any business existing.

Instead those businesses have a rubber-stamp deal with the government to bring
in foreign workers, who they can exploit with the power of deportation for
years. I personally have been to houses where 2, 3 or 4 entire families are
living in a single house, because that's all the can afford.

So the final result is that local Canadians don't have a job, the standard of
living for everyone in Canada comes down, and (yay!) those businesses make
ever more profit, in a location where they have no business operating.

(Disclaimer: I myself am an immigrant to Canada and went through this process.
Yes, I'm complaining about the hand that fed me. I'm a Software Engineer, I
was told by my local member of parliament the best way to immigrate was to
work at Walmart for 2-4 years because they always get approved.)

~~~
randycupertino
Ski resorts are notorious for doing this as well. Also a casino I worked at in
New England did this- they bused in undocumented asian immigrants from NYC and
paid them in food and under the table to do their cleaning, laundry
facilities, etc. They would work for two weeks, sleep in shifts in this local
motel and then take the bus back to NYC to send $$ back to their families.

~~~
grecy
> _Ski resorts are notorious for doing this as well_

Very true. The pressure from the big resorts in BC are the reason that
Australians under 31 can get unlimited 2 year work visas, as opposed to the
one-time 1 year visa they used to get

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rdtsc
> The Labor Department ultimately ordered the Westin Kierland, which has a
> championship golf course, multiple pools, and a 900-foot “lazy river” spread
> over 262 acres, to pay a total of $13,500 ...

Right. So what incentive do they have to stop doing it in the future? It is
not even like speeding where you get points added to your driving record and
insurance premiums go up. $13k in case Dept of Labor finds time to look at
them closely again is really just emptying the take-a-penny jar by the front
door for them.

> Around Moultrie, the resentment goes both ways. ...

That is a very effective tactic. Get workers to hate each other, it gives them
someone to focus on -- the other group, so they put less blame on the policies
or employers.

------
wfo
It really highlights a truism we sometimes forget if we read too many
inspirational biographical one-of-a-kind success stories: businesses, in
general, are soulless and will lie, cheat and steal to pad their profit
margins so long as they don't get punished. If they can skirt or bend the law,
they will. If they can break it and not get caught, they will. They must,
because that's what the free market is -- if it makes them more money, they
are forced to or be pushed out of business by someone with fewer principles
which act as a crippling liability.

When you hear businesses complain about a lack of supply, it's not about a
lack of supply, ever. It is bald faced lying with the intent to manipulate the
market. Flood the supply with labor and the price drops -- econ 101. Let the
people race to the bottom. We've seen it in tech for years; we also see it in
farming. In farming it hits home quite a bit harder because these people
aren't making $80k instead of $100k, they are being fired and become homeless
instead of barely making enough to survive.

~~~
jeffbush
I respectfully disagree, at least partially, with your statement.

I've been a hiring manager for over a decade in Silicon Valley and my
experience is that the market is very competitive now. Most candidates I've
spoken with are talking to multiple companies and many have offers pending.
Compensation seems to be steadily rising.

That said, I have heard anecdotally from a number of people that some of the
larger contracting companies game the H1B lottery system with lots of
applications to get people here and pay them below market wages (they add a
pretty big markup on what they charge their clients).

I've seen a lot of articles recently with a similar narrative: that there is
no shortage in tech and it is all a ploy. It makes for a compelling story with
a clear villain, but I believe the reality (as with most things) is more
complex.

~~~
laughinghan
You appear to be arguing against the assertion that the "lack of supply" in
Silicon Valley is "bald faced lying" to "flood the market", but you're
ignoring the broader point which is still very much true, namely, that if
businesses can manipulate the market, they will, and steadily rising
compensation is only _more_ incentive to do so. This isn't "just a few bad
apples", giants like "Don't Be Evil" Google, Apple (emails personally written
by Steve Jobs were used as evidence), Adobe, Intel, Intuit, and Pixar were
sued for this: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-
Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-
Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation)

~~~
jeffbush
Yes, I was part of that class action, I'm very familiar with it. In fact, when
my boss went to a competitor, I actually had a conversation with Steve Jobs
about it. My impression was that he was more concerned about losing expertise
and trade secrets about the iPhone than wages. The ensuing battle over Android
underscores this.

I'm not really ignoring the broader point, just responding to the specific
point about Silicon Valley.

~~~
laughinghan
I was pretty rude in the other comment and now it's too late to edit it.
Thanks for offering your perspective, it's cool to hear from someone close to
that situation; and it's cool to hear the perspective of a non-engineer, non-
business person in Silicon Valley.

~~~
jeffbush
No worries :) It is an important point that companies incentives are not
always aligned with workers and government has a role to play in making sure
they are protected.

------
gozur88
I don't understand how this could be news to anyone. The US has the lowest
labor force participation since before women entered the workforce. The H-2
program, like the H-1 program, is just a way to flood the labor market so
employees will never enjoy the sorts of labor shortages that are the only way
to raise real wages.

------
fiatmoney
In many cases, landowners are upset that their serfs have deserted the land,
and have called for the feds to arrest and return them.

[http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241278873239163045784049...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323916304578404921204162376)

------
wtracy
I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why the H-2 program exists at all.

The H-1B program I can understand: You need talent now, and can't just wait
four years for someone to complete the relevant degree.

But for unskilled labor? You're telling me that you can't find the workers you
need anywhere in the _country_? As long as there are people collecting
unemployment in the US, you have no business bringing more people in.

(Also, three months' experience required, seriously? What is so urgent that it
can't wait three months and so esoteric that it requires exactly three months'
training to do? You can damn well hire someone now, and magically, three
months from now, they will have three months' experience!)

~~~
cbd1984
> You're telling me that you can't find the workers you need anywhere in the
> country?

Do you expect someone to move from Michigan to Louisiana to perform unskilled
labor? Do you have any idea how expensive it is to move, and all for a
McDonald's job or equivalent?

~~~
gozur88
>Do you expect someone to move from Michigan to Louisiana to perform unskilled
labor?

If it doesn't make sense to move from Michigan, how does it make sense to move
from Guatemala?

~~~
jqm
Because the increase in wages vs Guatemala wages makes it worthwhile.

~~~
gozur88
An unemployed guy in Michigan isn't making any more than an unemployed guy in
Guatemala.

------
csours
>When American workers showed up to apply for a job at Pro Landscape, in
Hillsboro, Oregon, they were told they would have to dig a trench four feet
long, a foot and a half wide, and a foot and a half deep within five minutes
to be considered for the position, according to Labor Department records.

WTF? With a shovel? You could move that much loose soil, but in many types of
soil you could not do that without a backhoe at that speed.

~~~
pjc50
That's the point: set people an unpassable test if they don't want to hire
them.

------
usaphp
> "said Derrick Green, 32, a father of six who said he was fired by Hamilton
> Growers in 2012 after only three weeks picking squash"

I always wondered, what makes people that have a low paying job want to have
so many children, I am making pretty good money but I am still having trouble
keeping up with expenses (pre-school, clothes, food) with my only child, I
always wondered how do those people survive with 6 kids.

~~~
etchalon
They live a fundamentally different lifestyle than you do.

------
such_a_casual
I am shocked at the amount of H-2 visas in California. We have perfectly good
illegal immigrants here and always have going all the way back to the
missionaries. There is absolutely no reason any company should be denying
these people jobs just to import nice fancy government selected employees.

------
gscott
Firing a group of people makes the remaining people have some fear they will
get fired too. This might be a tactic to get even more labor out of the
remaining employees.

------
jgalt212
> “We want to go to work and work all day,” said Derrick Green, 32, a father
> of six who said he was fired by Hamilton Growers in 2012 after only three
> weeks picking squash.

Holy cow. What kind of agricultural working thinks he'll have the means to
support six kids? Sometimes the poor are poor because they are oppressed and
sometimes they are poor because they make incredibly bad decisions.

------
jheriko
the underlying problem here is not surprising... that foreign workers are more
productive. if that wasn't the case the incentive for this behaviour would
disappear.

regulating employment to encourage employing natives is not the solution to
this problem. it quite obviously hurts the economy and makes that same problem
/worse/.

no idea how to fix it though... its a tough one.

~~~
rdtsc
> that foreign workers are more productive.

Yeah but we still have to explain why. Home come they are more productive?

Do they have different, more powerful genes. Did they go to cherry picking
academy as children? Have longer arms?

They seem to be more productive even living in school buses and pretty
terrible conditions!

Of course I am being sarcastic here to illustrate a point. They are productive
because they are scared. Put a gun to anyone's head, and they'll be very
productive. Threaten their children with starvation back home, and you'd be
surprised how early they'll rise and bike through the snow or rain to their
job.

The other side of the coin is ugly too. Are the immigrant workers more
productive because somehow American workers looking for these jobs are un-
productive as a group. That is a tough topic to discuss without getting into
dangerous waters. The article brings those comments up from employers'
perspective.

~~~
jheriko
the idea that there is large scale organised bullying of migrant workers is so
fantastic - i struggle to understand how people can realistically believe
these things if they have much real world experience.

i'm sure it happens, but its not the common case... its certainly not
organised on the scale that people make out. it would be very difficult to
make that sort of thing happen whilst making it in the best interest of
everyone involved to not expose it for their own gain... it would tear itself
apart from the inside or get caught out very quickly.

~~~
rdtsc
> the idea that there is large scale organised bullying of migrant workers is
> so fantastic

Wait, did I say that? Did you respond to the wrong comment?

~~~
jheriko
> They are productive because they are scared.

that and its context very heavily implies that this is the case, otherwise it
explains nothing.

------
Nickersf
Abstract: the oligarchy wants slaves to work for them. The US workers want
modern wages and living standards. The foreign workers will do this because
they think they're escaping at times worse conditions.

This is treason, and these oligarchs should be punished. Of course people are
going to go on welfare and government aid in conditions like this. Deplorable,
and disgusting. Makes me ashamed to be a citizen of this country.

~~~
jheriko
I think you missed a critical point from this, its not just that foreigners
have lower standards, its that they do better work as well. It even quotes a
guy pointing out that you get significantly worse value for money hiring
americans...

thats a serious issue all of its own and makes the whole situation less
conspiracy theory and more capitalism.

~~~
omegaworks
> It even quotes a guy pointing out that you get significantly worse value for
> money hiring americans...

Of course you can squeeze more effort out of people you can physically
retaliate against (deportation).

>less conspiracy theory and more capitalism.

More like corporate welfare. The machinery of low fines and US Immigration and
Customs Enforcement is a kind of subsidization. From an economic perspective,
foreign labor is forced to price themselves below their real value because
they are left with no choice in the matter.

~~~
jheriko
thats not really the implication. it doesn't require squeezing... the
implication is that even if paid and treated the same foreign workers are more
productive, and this is very easy to believe.

i'm not 100% defending the companies here, but there are two sides to this,
and we all should be experienced enough to know that mass organised bullying
of immigrant workers isn't a thing that you can sneak under the radar these
days... its always individuals overstepping their bounds - not big organised
conspiracies.

it just wouldn't be anywhere near the same kind of problem if the workforce
was more motivated and more competitive...

~~~
wyclif
_the implication is that even if paid and treated the same_

But they are not paid and treated the same at all, this is the point. The
foreign workers are threatened with deportation. That is a powerful motivator
to work faster and harder.

~~~
jheriko
yes, and even if they weren't, i'm pretty convinced that they would work
faster and harder too.

------
taytus
Buzzfeed Investigation. That should be the best oxymoron of 2015.

~~~
randycupertino
It's crazy but Buzzfeed has actually improved some of its reporting. They have
an actual "reporting team" now that do real investigative work and not just
listicles. I know that's almost impossible to believe. But they've impressed
me with a few articles recently and I was really surprised!

Edit- see this article about how they are hiring actual reporters:

[http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/rieder/2015/06...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/rieder/2015/06/15/buzzfeed-
expands-as-journalism-force/71250444/)

~~~
djsumdog
Even so, I still would rather read someone else. Just because Huffington Post
might be considered legitimate now doesn't erase the fact that they started by
not paying anyone (or paying then with "exposure" instead of read money).

------
maxk42
Buzzfeed is not a credible news source.

~~~
virmundi
In this instance they appear to have done their footwork. They requested for
comment on multiple items. They said what they asked and that they were not
responded to. They showed a history of companies creating terrible conditions
(such as the old bus houses) for their migrants. They showed people suing for
lost wages after being looked over for a job (such as the horse lady).

While it's true that settling a lawsuit doesn't mean that they're guilty, with
the evidence presented it appears that they probably were. It also shows a
wide, possibly systemic response to such abuses on the part of the government:
slaps on the wrist for violating the program.

Edited: a typo, missing "y" in sentence They showed a history...

