
Microsoft’s Hardware, Round 2: Surface 2 and Surface Pro 2 - bergie
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/09/microsofts-hardware-round-2-surface-2-and-surface-pro-2/
======
bhauer
As a Surface Pro owner [1], I like:

* Surface 2 loses the low-density screen. I enjoy that low-density has been deprecated.

* The names are right. Surface 2 and Surface Pro 2. No "Surface with Windows RT 8.1" nonsense.

* Haswell, yes please. Longer battery life may assuage some popular criticism.

* Backlit type cover. I hope this is compatible with my Surface Pro.

* Two-position kick stand. I will be envious of this.

* Surface 2 is smaller than Surface RT.

* More memory in the Pro 2.

* Docking station. Depending on the price of that and whether it's compatible with my Surface Pro, I may pick one up. However, I'd prefer to have an inductive charging plate as I have with my Nokia phone. I love the idea of just dropping wireless devices on a plate with no cables, no alignment, no fuss.

I am disappointed by:

* I personally would have preferred a Surface 2 Pro that leveraged Haswell to reduce the form factor to roughly the same as the original Surface RT. But I've never actually drained my Pro's battery, so I'd take lighter-weight versus increased battery lifespan. I'm usually near an AC outlet when I am out and about.

* I would have liked a purely x86 lineup. Bay Trail Atom (or Haswell i3) on the low-end, Haswell i5 on the high-end.

* Windows RT needs help. Remove its artificial limitations.

Overall, I am fairly satisfied. I may want to replace my wife's netbook with a
2 Pro.

[1] [http://tiamat.tsotech.com/microsoft](http://tiamat.tsotech.com/microsoft)

~~~
dangrossman
> I hope this is compatible with my Surface Pro

Everything's compatible with the SP. Only the original Surface is missing the
extra contacts on bottom for some of the new hardware.

Myself, I'll be picking up the Power Cover when that shows up (I'm expecting
2014), but not replacing the tablet. 8ish hours of battery life is plenty for
me.

I'll save the big money for a real laptop when the rest of the PC makers
finally put some Haswell-based stuff on store shelves this holiday season.
That it's taken them over a year since the MBA is pathetic.

The only thing that keeps me from using SP2 as a desktop replacement is the
GPU. I still like to do some casual gaming every once in a while, and Intel's
integrated graphics are too far behind nVidia/ATI's discrete offerings in
other ultrabooks.

~~~
LokiSnake
Any word on why it's taking manufacturers so long to get Haswell-based devices
out?

~~~
nileshtrivedi
Just yesterday, I was talking to my friend who works at Intel (on audio for
Haswell tablets). He mentioned that Haswell isn't stable enough yet. I didn't
get into the details though.

------
enko
Dear Microsoft: Out of ARM and x86, choose one. Just choose one. For the love
of god, choose ONE.

Can you imagine Apple, or anyone else, deliberately releasing two different
tablets, with the same name, which can not run each others' software? It is
inconceivable, and for good reason.

MS cannot make decisions. That's what will kill them, long term. Just choose
one!!

~~~
Todd
Why does Apple get a pass on this? They have just taken the alternative
approach of fracturing their OS and hardware. It's natural because of where
they started (iPod -> iPhone -> iPad), so this isn't a criticism.

As a consequence, this is one area where MS is ahead of Apple (even if MS is
having difficulties reconciling the tablet vs. desktop experience). MS has
touch on the desktop. When is Apple going to have touch on Mac Books?

I know SJ said vertical touch screens don't work. They will continue to say so
until they add touch. Undoubtedly, they'll do it well, and it will be well
integrated with the OS. But they'll continue to say it doesn't work...until it
does. Similar to the movement to flat with nary a mention of Metro.

So Apple has the challenge of bringing their user-level of their OS offerings
closer together (along with the hardware), whereas MS has the challenge of
dealing with the Metro/Desktop schism and the x86/ARM dichotomy. Same coin,
different sides.

~~~
benihana
> _Why does Apple get a pass on this?_

Here's why: Last November when the iPad Mini and the iPad 4 launched, Apple
sold 3 million iPads over the weekend. Surface has sold about 1.7 million
devices total since it launched. [http://bgr.com/2013/07/31/microsoft-surface-
sales-2013/](http://bgr.com/2013/07/31/microsoft-surface-sales-2013/)

It's hard to argue with success.

> _As a consequence, this is one area where MS is ahead of Apple_

The numbers seem to disagree with you. The reason Apple doesn't put touch on
their Macbooks is cause no one wants it.

~~~
Todd
That's a false argument. These are separate points of discussion. You're
arguing that they're right because they were first to market in a new space
and have achieved significant momentum. Momentum is just that. They've been
riding on it for a while. The last significant innovation was iPad, which was
just an evolution of the one real innovation: iPhone. That's only going to
carry them so far. Android is eating their market share while Apple is
extracting what they can from this momentum and iterating on a theme.

I think Apple's products are great. Their ID is fantastic. Their developer
ecosystem leaves much to be desired. The fact that I no longer buy their
products due to their closed nature (and, by extension, their philosophy for
the future: closed, controlled, and owned) does not take away from my
admiration of the company from a product and engineering perspective.

~~~
hmottestad
Actually. Apple was really late to the market with the iPad. Microsoft had
been doing tablets for 8 years before Apple came along
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Tablet_PC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Tablet_PC)).

Apple was the first to bring down the price, make it holdable (in your hand),
give it a battery that you don't need to worry about. Give it apps that were
only designed for touch.

Android is iterating as much as Apple is. They will probably keep iterating
until some big hardware breakthrough, maybe when someone releases a ARM86
(compatible ARM and x86 processor)? One major breakthrough of the original
iphone was smooth finger tracking made available by the new capitative touch
screen.

~~~
yardie
I'll just leave this little nugget here.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Newton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Newton)

Before, they were called PDAs and they've existed since the late 80s. Apple
wasn't late, they were simply waiting for the technology arrive to do it
right.

------
ChuckMcM
Very nice. Pretty much everything I read was a net positive for the product,
the only quibble might be the price but of all the things you can change in
the future that is easiest to change :-).

I was intrigued by the music keyboard, not because I think the Surface is the
instrument of the future, but because I think there is a market for a device
which can easily customize its input experience like that. I have thought for
a while that future test equipment from Tektronix or Agilent might look like
that but with a scope control panel and a dock for attaching probes.

Like the 2 position kickstand, the one we got at work to do testing on that
was annoying. I bet Surface 3 touts an infinitely adjustable one :-).

I think the ARM/x86 messaging is pretty spot on as well, Microsoft is playing
the "its just windows" card pretty hard and dropping the RT moniker was smart
too. Most consumers could care less about instruction set architecture. And
what happens when Apple makes an Air with the A7 ? Will Apple have the 2 x 2
matrix (iOS/MacOS)(ARM/x86)? and Microsoft the 1 x 2 matrix (Windows)(ARM/x86)
? I'd think the latter long term is easier to message and less confusing for
customers. If they go all Ubuntu like and create a Win 8.1 phone experience
then there product / os vector is 1x3 (Windows)(phone/tablet/laptop).

That said, for me it reinforces the notion that this is the year of the Linux
desktop. I recently had the experience of using a USB serial cable that worked
under Linux but not under Windows 7. That was one of the signs for me that
perhaps Windows was ceding the development workstation business (or at least
not paying attention to it). That should be good news for folks like System76.

------
SimonPStevens
There is a simple change Microsoft need to make to the Surface RT to make it
viable.

Fix app compatibility.

Start by removing the artificial restriction on desktop apps. Currently
desktop apps are restricted to those signed by Microsoft. If they were to
remove this restriction there's a whole load of apps that could be recompiled
to target ARM and work on the RT desktop. Companies and open source devs would
be far more willing to spend a small amount of time porting existing code
bases to ARM than re-writing whole apps for 'Metro style'.

On top of that, Microsoft already have a platform compatibility layer in .Net.
And they clearly already have a ARM version of the .Net runtime as you can
build Metro apps targeting .Net. It seems absolutely crazy that they don't
make use of this already existing compatibility layer that could allow _all_
existing .Net apps to run on RT desktop _without change_. This would make the
surface RT a far more interesting proposition for companies looking to deploy
their internal homegrown enterprise apps to windows tablets.

This change would re-position the RT from it's current state as a
underwhelming curiosity who's main competitor is IPads and Android tablets
which have a wider range of apps (and are significantly cheaper in the case of
some Android brands) to a true low-mid end laptop alternative with decent app
support at a similar price point. The Surface pro stays as it is as a high end
laptop alternative.

~~~
MBCook
> Start by removing the artificial restriction on desktop apps.

I would say the desktop is the biggest _problem_ with Surface RT. It's clear
they wanted an iPad, but ended up tacking on the desktop because Windows 8
couldn't operate in Metro-only mode (some settings, etc not available) and
Office wasn't ready.

Fix that. Drop the desktop so there is no more confusion on the RT. You want
the desktop? You want the pro. You want simple, reliable, easy to use? You
want the RT. You had the vision, you knew what you were going for, complete
it. I think the market might reward you. Either way at least you don't have
the desktop sitting around reminding your users they bought a 'fake' computer.

I'll also say that making the RT tablet a different color is a serious plus.
The fact that Microsoft was selling two totally different tablets aimed at
different markets with different price points using the same name, marketing,
and look was crazy. If customers can't tell which product is which, how you do
expect them to choose?

~~~
maximilianburke
The name is also terrible. Pro vs RT makes it sound like one is picking a trim
level of car. It makes it seem like they're both the same with minor
differences on the surface. But they're not. They're quite different.

Call one the Work, and one the Play. The Work gets the desktop, full Windows
8, full Office, Visual Studio, etc., the Play gets Metro and enough support to
not be completely useless but also enough to create a separate market segment.

Bundle them both with keyboards. Give the "real" keyboard (the Surface Type
Cover) to the Work, because people with this tablet will be the ones writing
Office documents. Give the cardboardy Touch Cover to those that buy the Play
because they just need it when the touch screen becomes a little too annoying
to bang out that email to your family while on vacation.

Differentiated products for markets that should now be able to self select
with less confusion.

~~~
pedalpete
Play vs. Work probably isn't the right dividing line between the two devices.
The RT is more than just work, hence the 'Pro' moniker does fit well with that
device. The problem with just calling it Surface 2 is that people won't get
the difference.

We used to complain about Microsoft's multiple versions of Windows with
"Home", "Media Centre", "Professional", but strangely, now we seem to be
asking to go back to that realm.

Does Surface 2 Lite work? Essentially, that is what it is, it doesn't have all
the features of the Pro, and it's lighter.

~~~
MBCook
Home/pro would have worked well. It would be nice to have a different name for
the ARM stuff though, to avoid confusion.

~~~
thomasz
"Home" is not so great for a mobile device...

------
codeulike
As it happens I bought a second hand Surface Pro from ebay and it arrived
today. Moving to it from a laptop thats a couple of years old, the Surface Pro
is absolutely blowing me away. Faster than my old laptop, also acts as a
tablet, using desktop applications via touch actually works, the pen is
brilliant. The 128gb will be fine for me, because I've got used to living
within about 120Gb.

~~~
JonFish85
128GB minus whatever OS overhead there is... I know it's a nitpick, but
definitely something to keep in mind.

~~~
mcintyre1994
It's relatively significant for a nitpick, "The 128 GB version has
approximately 85 GB free hard disk space." per
[http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-gb/support/storage-
files...](http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-gb/support/storage-files-and-
folders/surface-disk-space-faq)

That's probably a combination of OS and the doublespeak/marketing definition
of gigabyte though.

~~~
mahyarm
Just like the Macbook Air with it's 128GB SSD has a bunch of it taken up OS X
when you get the device? I look at the surface pro as microsoft's macbook air
equivalent.

~~~
steve-howard
I'd say the Ultrabook family is Microsoft's macbook air equivalent. I'm a big
fan of the Samsung Series 9, and I don't think I could go back to a bulkier
form factor for my next machine.

Disclaimer: I work at Microsoft, not in anything related.

------
kijin
The docking station looks fantastic. We've finally reached the day when we can
plug in the tablet when we get home and instantly transform it into a full-
blown desktop PC!

Too bad the 512GB/8GB model will probably cost an arm and a leg, making it
more economical for most people to simply buy two computers. But once the
price comes down a bit, I can see this becoming a true drop-in replacement for
the majority of Windows desktops and laptops out there.

~~~
jsz0
The numbers still don't seem to add up though. For the same price you could
get a (much) cheaper/lighter ARM tablet that gets much better battery life
_and_ a better desktop. I'm not sure what the point of convergence is here
unless you have some specific need to run a legacy win32 app on a tablet.

------
moron4hire
There are some problems with comparing a Windows Surface Pro tablet to an
iPad. The availability of programs is such that you're not going to use the
iPad for content creation, and you're probably not going to use the Surface
for gaming. The Surface is not a pick-up-and-go sort of device.

It's a laptop with a mutli-touch display.

I'm building a program right now for Windows 8, on Dell hardware[1]. I've
gotten quite used to the OS by now, and as long as you have a touch display,
it doesn't really deserve the criticism I've read. I remember hearing the same
thing about Windows XP and Windows Vista and Windows 7.

The thing that I like the most about using Windows 8 is that all of my
software just, like, works. A little bit of that is luck: if I had written any
programs that had heavy use of keyboard shortcuts, it wouldn't work without a
blutooth keyboard. If I had written any programs that expected the screen to
never resize, that too would break. But those are pretty bad programming
habits to begin with. My programs don't look _great_ , but that is a temporary
problem.

And I can program for it with the same tools that I'm using for Windows 7
(hell, I can program _on_ it). I don't have to wait for someone to make a
something-to-something-else translator to use my favorite language to write
programs like I do on iOS or Android. I don't have to wait for someone to make
a decent text editor on iOS or Android. I don't have to wait for someone to
write decent source control software for iOS or Android. I have it all,
already. I can do whatever I want.

Hell, if I want to install Linux on the thing, I could. Of course, it's
probably not going to play nicely with the touch screen, but that is a
different issue. The Surface Pro is just a PC.

[1] The Dell hardware isn't great, but it has a regular, ol', USB port on it,
which makes it amazing. I've played with the Surface Pro at a Staples and
found it to be better than this Dell device in every way.

~~~
MBCook
It's quite clear that the Surface (formerly RT) was designed to compete with
the iPad, and the Surface Pro (formerly just Surface) was designed to be a
hybrid/laptop replacement.

Unfortunately, Microsoft managed to make both products look nearly identical
and use the same name for both. The little I heard about the Surface was from
people who bought an RT thinking it was a normal Windows computer and returned
it.

I'm glad they're working to clear up the confusion with better naming and a
slightly different look.

------
untog
The Surface Pro 2 could make for a really interesting developer machine. Plug
it into external keyboard/monitor when you're at your desk, then just pick it
up and take it on the road when you want to. I'm tempted, but part of me can't
shake the idea that I'd be replacing my laptop with a tablet, even know I know
that's not quite true.

Also: Windows. I used to use it, but I've been working in OS X exclusively for
a few years now, and going back to the Windows Command Prompt might kill me.

~~~
CodeCube
powershell ... seriously, it's really good. And Cygwin if you really want that
unix shell experience :)

~~~
untog
I don't doubt that Powershell is good, but it's _different_. I've grown to
appreciate being able to use all the same commands on my dev box as I do on my
servers, and while Cygwin covers the basics, it doesn't do it all.

~~~
phaus
With newer versions of Windows, Microsoft has attempted to bring powershell on
par with the linux terminal. Supposedly, every admin function possible in the
OS is now capable of being performed in Powershell.

The only downside is that some if the commands are uneccessarily verbose in
comparison.

~~~
ihsw
Their push into headless Window Server deployment has certainly driven
Microsoft to shore up PowerShell. Recently they're taking on declarative
server configurations (ie: puppet) with their own brand of it -- Desired State
Configuration.

[http://blogs.technet.com/b/privatecloud/archive/2013/08/30/i...](http://blogs.technet.com/b/privatecloud/archive/2013/08/30/introducing-
powershell-desired-state-configuration-dsc.aspx)

------
philliphaydon
Surface Pro with 512gb of space and 8gb ram, if I decide to move country again
next year I'm replacing my desktop with a Surface.

~~~
gum_ina_package
I'm a college student studying engineering. I can say that replacing my laptop
with my Surface Pro has been amazing. I'm virtually 100% paperless, with all
my notes being taken with OneNote (seriously amazing!) and textbooks saved as
PDFs. It's also awesome that the Pro has enough power for me to do real dev
work on it. So make the switch! You won't be disappointed!

~~~
mikevm
I'm a student also, but I've been using the iPad for this. I don't take any
notes on the iPad itself because the courses I need to take notes on are
mathematical, so I simply write on paper and then when I come back home I scan
it and append the scans to an evergrowing PDF file that is synced to my iPad.

I'm looking for a replacement for my iPad 2, but I can't settle on anything
because all the non-iPad tablets have a widescreen, which I believe is poor
choice when it comes to reading PDF textbooks.

Right now I read my PDF textbooks in landscape mode, and I use GoodReader to
crop the margins, and everything looks fabulous. I'm worried that if I move to
a widescreen tablet, I will end up with less vertical space and wasted
horizontal space ("black bars" due to incompatible aspect ratios of the page
and the screen).

How's your experience when it comes to reading these kind of textbooks? Any
chance you could provide screenshots of how these textbooks look like when you
read them in landscape mode?

~~~
Livven
FYI with OneNote and a digitizer stylus as the Surface Pro comes with you can
just write your notes on the screen. OneNote will recognize the handwriting
and allow you to search through it etc.

Sorry if you already know that, from the way your comment is phrased it looks
like you don't so I thought I'd throw it out.

~~~
mikevm
I don't think it'd be particularly efficient. I need to be able to write
proofs (which include lots of math symbols) and draw diagrams very quickly.
I've seen people do it with digitizers, but the results ends up being rather
poor. Pen & paper still looks best.

~~~
mietek
Is there a usable handwriting recognizer which can deal with heavy math
notation?

~~~
chad_oliver
I came across MyScript yesterday, and have been very impressed. It's an SDK
which can recognize handwritten math (among other things). It has correctly
recognized everything I've thrown at it so far, even though I'm using a mouse
so my writing's pretty crappy.

I'm seriously considering trying to build something with the API. I'm not sure
what; I just want to play with the cool technology. Perhaps an app which gives
you an algebra question, then uses math recognition to interpret your working.
It could then see that you made a mistake on step three (for example).

Perhaps I've just late to the party, but I'm still astounded that this is
possible.

You can check out a demo here:
[http://webdemo.visionobjects.com/home.html#equation](http://webdemo.visionobjects.com/home.html#equation)

~~~
mietek
Wow! This is seriously impressive.

------
tonydiv
Better performance might help this sell, but the second I saw the "Surface
Music Kit," I got excited.

As a DJ, I need to carry around an expensive laptop to perform. The iPad does
not have any impressive apps to DJ (at least not professionally), so I'd be
VERY interested if they focused on the niche music market here. Surface 2 +
Kinect/Leap + superb DJing app + Spotify-esque music supply = very happy
musicians.

Unfortunately, I don't think anyone is going to spend the time to develop a
quality DJing app.

~~~
saturdaysaint
There are plenty of quality DJing apps for PC - this seems like it would be
more than adequate for Serrato/Traktor/etc.

------
davidacoder
Why, oh why is there no version with 3G/LTE? That is by far the biggest
bummer, imho. For people that are on the road a lot that makes such a
difference, and pretty much all other tablets offer that option, so it seems
really lame to not have that. Also, if I spent $1800 for a Surface Pro in the
best configuration, I really would expect it to have the same connectivity as
a iPad mini... Other than that, this seems like the perfect device (the Pro
version).

~~~
RyJones
Because a small fraction of people buy it, and a smaller fraction of
purchasers turn it on.

I've bought (and given away) four iPads with Verizon LTE. Exactly 0 people
activated it.

This is old data, but in line with newer data I've seen WRT iPad activation
rates: [http://tabletquest.com/2011/02/disappointing-apple-
ipad-3g-a...](http://tabletquest.com/2011/02/disappointing-apple-
ipad-3g-activation-numbers/)

~~~
davidacoder
Well, sure, for a consumer device that I use on my couch in the evenings, I
certainly don't need LTE. But the Pro seems pretty geared towards business,
right? For business travelers this makes a huge, huge difference, though. And
it seems to me that the high end Pro version is probably exclusively targeted
at business users, at its price.

~~~
RyJones
I would have bought LTE with my surface pro, had it been offered. My iPad's
LTE is so flaky I don't trust it.

------
harigov
Most of the issues that I had with Surface Pro seems to have been resolved by
this update:

\- Gets pretty hot - new haswell processors seem to be doing better \- Short
battery life of 5 hrs - 75% improvement brings it to around 8-9 hrs, which is
a typical work day and that's a great improvement

Overall Surface Pro hardware has always been top class, and I think this
version might be the one to buy.

------
Mikeb85
Microsoft should never have released Windows RT. The one reason, and the one
biggest reason that people use Windows is backwards compatibility... By
breaking that, they essentially undermined their own monopoly power, and now
everyone is developing to be platform-agnostic.

And let's face it - no one has actually liked MS products in a decade, they've
simply put up with them. Now that people aren't forced to use MS products,
they don't. It doesn't matter whether or not the Surface 2 is any good, MS
killed the only thing going for them...

~~~
josefresco
"And let's face it - no one has actually liked MS products in a decade,
they've simply put up with them."

Windows 7 was widely praised, Xbox 360 is the winning console, Kinect was
revolutionary and widely praised, and of course MS Office is still the premier
office suite (I would argue that people "put up with" the alternatives).

~~~
Mikeb85
And yet Apple is the platform making gains (with OSX), especially in people's
homes - and has been for the better part of a decade. I don't know when you
last walked through a University, but Macbooks make up the majority of laptops
students are using. What people 'want' isn't a Windows PC (as their sales are
showing - especially in higher price points).

You're right about the consoles (except the kinect, I don't know a single
person who owns it) however, but the console crowd are a fickle bunch, and the
way things are shaping up, the PS4 could be the winner this time round...

------
methodin
Was it the device itself that caused such poor sales? I assumed all along it
was a marketing/image problem which remains unsolved. Has relentlessness by a
company ever overcome this issue in the past?

~~~
rayiner
Surface marketing was everywhere. I don't think it was particularly bad
marketing at that.

The devices were definitely to blame. Surface RT squandered Microsoft's ace in
the whole in this space: Office + Outlook + Windows network integration. Not
only did Office RT not ship in Metro form, but the product that shipped
initially was a buggy pre-release. It was disastrous execution. Besides that,
Surface RT sold for an iPad/Nexus 10 price without comparable specs (Tegra 3
and low-resolution screen).

~~~
JonFish85
> I don't think it was particularly bad marketing at that.

I think Microsoft marketing was definitely to blame for their failure to
properly distinguish the two (Surface Pro vs. Surface RT). They really were
two very different devices for different uses. Trying to call them both
Surface tablets was a mis-step in my opinion because of their very different
use-cases: one is a desktop replacement, the other is a tablet. To me, that's
a marketing problem, not an engineering problem.

~~~
yaeger
>I think Microsoft marketing was definitely to blame for their failure to
properly distinguish the two (Surface Pro vs. Surface RT).

And here we are observing them do it all over again. Surface 2, Surface Pro 2.
Just by the name you still could figure they are the same machine and maybe
the pro is a little bit faster or has a bigger flash drive etc. Just as you
figure with the different Windows editions. "Ultimate", "Professional" "Home"
etc.

People who get the Surface 2 will still be very surprised to see that that
they cannot do anything with it seeing as not one "exe" they already have will
work on them.

------
Pxtl
Big thing missing from the line-up: WinRT HDMI-stick.

A Windows-powered answer to the MK808/Ouya/VitaStation and similar products,
bundled with a nice wireless keyboard/mouse remote gizmo - something like
this:
[http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetails/57Y6678/460/4C2830F...](http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetails/57Y6678/460/4C2830F486C64CF7A8A1E619AB6729AA)

WinRT's consistent support for keyboard/mouse sets it apart from touch-
oriented Android. Wireless handheld keyboard/mouse is hard to get right, but
touchscreen without touching is harder. WinRT could be great on TVs.

But MS would worry about cannibalizing their XBox sales.

~~~
sjmulder
I tried using Windows 8 with a TV and it’s almost there but not quite – if
they fix a few things it would be perfect:

\- At 720p you cannot run Windows Store apps (needs to be 768 minimum)

\- At 1080p much of the UI is too small. You can increase the font size but
that’s not always enough.

\- Surprisingly, while keyboard navigation is great, it doesn't seem to
support the Xbox 360 controller at all for navigating through the UI.

~~~
barista
Actually if you are thinking of connecting your PC to your TV then Windows 7
is still the best bet. It's a well kept secret but a quiet PC connected to TV
beats any other media solution out there hands down.

~~~
Pxtl
Yes, but that's an expensive option compared to ARM-based devices. I mean, you
can get a pretty good Android-based ARM device with a spiffy remote for like
$80. You'll be spending 5X that much for a decent X86+Windows solution.

That's why WinRT opens up a new market for them. A WinRT device for light
gaming, photos, video-chat, etc. for your TV would be nifty.

------
martin1b
Surface RT owner here (freebie). LOVE the interface. Love the hardware (nice
solid feel and excellent touch recognition). Wish kickstand would have 2
positions.. It's slower than a pro but I can deal with that. Crappy cameras,
but not a show stopper.

My main beef why I can't recommend it is compatibility. If that was addressed,
the number of apps would skyrocket and I'd be a huge fan.

You would think since MSFT is late to this market, putting in a low-medium
cost, highly functional tablet to reverse the trend to apple and google would
allow them to catch up quickly. The pro price is currently on par to an Ipad.
Hopefully CEO #3 will do that.

------
__abc
Who's the guying posing in the photo's? He looks miserable.

~~~
rlu
His name is Panos Panay and he's VP of Surface.

I agree he isn't very photogenic but if you actually watch him present....it's
a whole different story. You can probably find his part of the Surface 1
announcement on youtube and I'm sure the one today will be put up later.

~~~
celerity
I came away from today's presentation thinking that he was an unusually bad
presenter. IMHO he failed to explain why the Surface Pro 2 was better at the
things he was claiming it was better at, didn't give concrete details on basic
specifications (saying "25% better battery life" is useless unless you know
what his supposed base is), and made too many lame jokes.

------
phaus
Still no keyboard that can be used without a table. Most people spend less
than $700 on a laptop. Not many people are going to spend more than that on a
device that was intentionally rendered less capable so Microsoft could sell
gimicky keyboard covers. Microsoft knows how to make nice hardware. All they
need to do is create a true hybrid device that sets the example for the
industry.

~~~
nbevans
On-screen keyboard for "not on a table" scenarios. Compromise? Yes. But
acceptable compromise? Probably; how many people do "productive" input-
oriented work that isn't on a table?

~~~
phaus
I write essays for my classes and even code a little bit pretty much
everywhere. In the car, lying in bed, on the sofa. The funny thing is, I did
most of this on an iPad with a Clamcase Pro.

If someone didn't want to do productive input-oriented work, why would they
need a tablet with a Haswell processor?

~~~
mahyarm
Couldn't you get something like the clamcase pro then for the surface? This
type of cover is for people who want something as minimal as an ipad smart
cover.

~~~
phaus
No one has made one yet, because the Surface wasn't popular enough to make it
profitable.

Microsoft proved with the first generation that they have the chops required
to make hardware that's just as nice as Apple's. Everyone praised the
Surface's hardware, they just didn't like the battery life of the Ivy Bridge
version nor Windows RT. Unfortunately, the inability of the Surface to be used
as a laptop makes it a secondary device for most people. A $900 secondary
device is going to be way too expensive for most people, who as I already
said, pay less than $700 for their primary devices.

1st party devices are almost universally better than third-party devices. For
example, while I loved my Clamcase Pro, I bet it wouldn't have died after less
than a year if it had been made by Apple. That's why I was hoping that
Microsoft would see the potential in making a proper keyboard for the Surface
2.

The closest thing we have right now is the Lenovo Helix. It's a nice device,
but it was launched with Ivy Bridge right around the time Haswell was
released, and it costs a fortune when compared to the surface or a Macbook
Air.

------
shurcooL
Why is there a photo of an external monitor with 3840x2160 and nothing is
mentioned about it? Is it because it's just a hypothetical display that could
be connected via the Mini DisplayPort, had it existed?

~~~
daeken
I was really hoping they'd announce that _they_ are releasing such a display,
to go along with the new Surfaces. I'd have bought one, along with a Surface
Pro 2 and a docking station.

~~~
shurcooL
That's what I assumed was happening when I first saw that photo, hence my
disappointment.

------
danso
> _Another cover that 's totally out of left field is the "Surface Music Kit,"
> a Touch Cover with a mixing deck instead of a keyboard. All the new Touch
> Covers are pressure sensitive, so for the Music kit, the harder you hit the
> Touch Cover, the louder the sound plays._

I'm not a music person but pressure-sensitive controls seems like the next
frontier for touch devices (that, and Kinect-type cam interfaces)...I was
going to say, "the iPad will likely fall behind here"...but it looks like
third-party vendors are adding pressure-capability via Bluetooth:
[http://www.tuaw.com/2013/08/20/wacom-unveils-pressure-
sensit...](http://www.tuaw.com/2013/08/20/wacom-unveils-pressure-sensitive-
intuos-creative-stylus-for-ipad/)

------
ChikkaChiChi
Windows CE, Windows Mobile, Windows Surface RT v1.

I've given MS plenty of chances. I think it's time I moved on.

------
saturdaysaint
I like the Pro, but the non-Pro Surface doesn't strike me as any more
competitive than last year's model. It's heavier than it's main competitor
with lower resolution and orders of magnitude fewer apps. And it does nothing
to address the wave of great mini tablets. Maybe I'm alone here, but I don't
want to hold anything heavier than a pound for more than a few minutes.

Also, with iOS 7 rolling out, MS is going to have a lot harder time playing
the "fresh new interface" card.

~~~
pjmlp
Given that iOS 7 is a copy of what MS and Google were already offering on
their systems, why not?

~~~
saturdaysaint
Because there are already more people using iOS 7 every hour of their day than
ever actually used Metro or any single variant of Android. Who was first is
pretty irrelevant to average Joe/Jane picking their next phone.

~~~
pjmlp
Only in US, in the rest of the world it is a different story.

~~~
saturdaysaint
Metro isn't popular in any country that you could call a leading indicator of
OS success, and there is no consistent Android UI to speak of anywhere.

------
bcoates
How much of the battery life on a tablet is RAM? I moved down from 8GB to 4
when I switched from a big laptop to surface, and the only performance
difference I noticed was substantially improved hibernate times.

I'd hate to get a bunch of battery life back from Haswell just to burn it all
on RAM I don't even want to get the 512GB model.

------
JimmaDaRustla
I like keeping the price of RT down, and giving a middle option between it and
Pro.

I'm interested in Haswell reviews, including the power/heat levels.

I just can't justify $900 when I could get an Ultrabook with more power for a
little more. I guess that is just the price you pay for form factor.

~~~
chiph
A coworker's wife has a Surface Pro, and the heat it generates is her #1
complaint.

------
shanselman
I'm surprised they didn't stress Windows 8.1 more. I have an original Surface
RT ("O.G.") and it was essentially unused in my house until I got Windows 8.1
on it...changed everything. It's a much more usable OS.

------
wehadfun
I think the problem with the last surface was price: $900 for a mediocre
windows laptop with a touch screen or $300 for a mediocre windows laptop
without a touchscreen.

------
eliben
Those prices are... delusional.

~~~
nbevans
Why? Did you even look at the specs? They are far in advance of the
capabilities of an iPad. It's a full blown "PC as a Tablet". Even having a
DisplayPort output and single USB port on a tablet device immediately makes it
worth $200 more than any iPad.

~~~
eliben
Because you can get a much more powerful laptop for much less, if you need a
"real PC". If you need a tablet, you can get one for far less too. Heck, you
can get a great laptop + a great tablet for less!

This is a delusional move from a company that's so far behind in this area
that it's no longer funny.

~~~
nivla
That is not a good comparison. That is like asking someone, why do they need a
smart phone when they can get a regular phone + a netbook for half the price.
Believe it or not there is a niche market for Tablet+PC forms. It was one of
the main reason and the best decision I made when purchasing the Surface Pro.
For travelling, I no longer need to carry my Laptop + Tablet. I just take the
Surface Pro (It is setup to use my dev environments exactly as on the PC) and
when I get back, I sync the changes to the laptop. Not only can I get real
work done on the plane but can also switch to tablet mode and play some
useless games when tired. However, that is my experience but your mileage may
vary.

~~~
eliben
If this is aimed at a niche market, I suppose it makes more sense. I was just
under the impression that Microsoft has hopes of remaining a major player in
the computer business; if it's content with marginalizing itself into a niche,
so be it.

------
abuzzooz
Microsoft sticking to Tegra is an interesting choice. I'm not saying it's bad,
but still interesting given the current dynamics of the mobile market.

Now that they have Nokia, I predict that Microsoft will attempt to acquire
NVIDIA in order to mimic Apple's and Samsung's vertical strategies. Not sure
Jen-Hsun or the board would agree though.

------
pearjuice
It looks better than the original Surface, and seems to address the main
issues. The better battery will be a huge advantage. Not a fan of the thinner
keyboard though, the travel isn't too great anyway with the S Pro 1. Also, who
the fuck cares about back-lighting?

~~~
pycassa
some people do.. I can touch type, but sometimes when I need to press some key
other than the alphabet I have to search for it.. back lit keyboards are very
helpful when I'm trying to use my computer in the night without any lights.

but I do hope there is a hotkey(function key) to turn off the back light when
I'm watching a movie or something.

~~~
dangrossman
The new keyboard covers have a proximity sensor. The backlight is only on when
your hands are near it.

------
th0ma5
Can one get Debian, SUSE, or CentOS running on either of these yet?

~~~
nivla
Cross-posting from one of my comments above: I know you can on the Surface Pro
1. So I don't see why you won't be able to on the Surface Pro 2. Its an x86
machine as per their own requirement, bios have to be unlocked and the ability
to disable secure boot must be present.

------
methodin
Does the Surface cut it as a machine for developers?

~~~
barista
the touch cover is not that great but the type cover is awesome for typing.
Looks like the second version of it is backlit as well so it does make for a
great dev PC

~~~
nivla
I totally agree with you. The touch cover is useless. I haven't got a chance
to try the type cover yet, but I assume it to much tolerable than the touch
cover. The only complaint, it doesn't come in colors :(

------
garg
This seems like a good alternative to the new Wacom Cintiq Companion ($2000)
geared towards digital artists.

------
quizzas
No LTE means no enterprise clients like me.

------
Yuioup
Fail 2 and Fail Pro 2

~~~
camus
Yeah, yet Microsoft still believes in that failure. They dont get that nobody
want their Microsoft stuffs, they should stick to software. Nobody trust
Microsoft anymore. Especially businnesses after X license audits ... I'm glad
people understand how dangerous this company really is. They definetly lost
the cellphone/tablet battle.

