
I just had over a thousand Euros stolen and Revolut is siding with the thief - jstanley
https://www.stavros.io/posts/revolut-doesnt-care-about-you/
======
Peroni
Revolut's CFO recently 'resigned' from the company in light of claims that
Revolut switched off an anti-money laundering system that flags suspect
transactions.

Revolut cited 'personal and health reasons' for the CFO's resignation.
Whatever those personal and health reasons really were, they clearly passed
quite quickly as within the space of a few weeks, said CFO has joined another
FinTech company as their new CFO.

The company quite literally has the words "get sh*t done" in giant neon
letters on their office wall. They live by the mantra of move fast and break
things. That mantra is inevitably going to cause problems when your entire
business is dealing with real money owned by real people in one of the most
heavily regulated industries in the world.

~~~
dgellow
> The company quite literally has the words "get sh*t done" in giant neon
> letters on their office wall.

That has become one of my red flag. I want to deal with people and companies
focused on the quality of their products and businesses, not on doing "shit"
(taking their motto literally).

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Absolutely. "Move fast and break things" is barely acceptable for services
where failure is mostly just annoying, like social media. If your product is
banking, medicine, transport, or anything else that can seriously harm people,
"move fast and break things" amounts to criminal negligence.

~~~
xenocratus
Amen.

Another example of a field that I'm personally aware of and in which this kind
of attitude should not be acceptable is cybersecurity. If your job is to
protect people, then EVERYTHING you release has to be bulletproof.

~~~
unethical_ban
As someone in cybersecurity, I would offer an alternate perspective: That
sometimes you have to lock things down despite not being absolutely certain of
side effects, being willing to take some outages, if you ever expect to get
something done.

Analysis Paralysis is a real thing. Sometimes you just have to do it.

~~~
soverance
Choosing to lock things down when you're not certain of the side effects...
that's the sort of thing that will, at worst, cause outages due to protocol
access or authentication (which are both easily fixable). It's a smart move...
and helps initiate the "Canary in the coalmine" built-in feature.

The "move fast and break things" crowd are generally the same people that will
choose to open things up in the name of "getting shit done". They'll drop
firewalls, expose services publicly, and generally go out of their way to
avoid security because they see it as a hurdle to achieving their primary
goal. In my experience, this lack of foresight almost always causes cascading
problems in the future that grow exponentially worse the longer they're left
unchecked.

------
Dayshine
It feels like the "unique" part that makes this something novel about this is
that they claim you authorized fraud when you raised your limit, accidentally
letting a transaction you couldn't see through.

So the scenario is roughly (numbers made up):

1\. You set a £500 monthly card limit

2\. Your card is stolen and somebody charges £1000

3\. You get a notification saying you have hit your limit

4\. The failed, fraudulent, transaction is not listed

5\. You increase your monthly limit to £1500

6\. The fraudulent transaction goes through

7\. You can now see the transaction

8\. You cancel your card and report the fraud

9\. _You 're told by raising the limit you authorized the fraudulent
transaction that you couldn't see before you raised the limit_

That's insane...

~~~
StavrosK
It's even more insane because I set the limit to 200ish, so bill payments
routinely give me that error message, so I didn't really think anything of it.

Also, apparently the declined transaction shows up, but it takes a while. It
didn't show up on my list even though I got the notification, so I thought it
just doesn't show and I went to the limits to raise them.

~~~
johnnycab
_It didn’t even mention which card this transaction was on, just no trace.
Thinking it was a recurring bill payment that’s getting declined, I started
looking into my cards, disabling and re-enabling limits._

I am guessing that you are the author of this blog post. For a long term user,
you seem to have made a lot of assumptions and mistakes. You also seem to have
a few cards on your account. I can't tell if you froze ALL of your cards,
either immediately upon discovering the fraudulent event or before
raising/disabling limits and then 'deal' with the rogue virtual card
afterwards.

Revolut is a pre-paid card. You can't expect expect the same level of
protection or consumer rights, which are provided by a Credit Card or a bank
registered in your jurisdiction.

Regardless, you should post this in the Revolut community for more visibility
and probably get an actual resolution, before jumping on the GDPR angle ─
which will fail to provide with you enough details, as most financial
institutions will redact any information on fraudulent transactions ─ stating
in some vague language that it is an on-going fraud/crime investigation, hence
they are not allowed to discuss it etc.

Good luck.

[https://community.revolut.com/](https://community.revolut.com/)

~~~
Dayshine
>Revolut is a pre-paid card. You can't expect expect the same level of
protection or consumer rights, which are provided by a Credit Card or a bank
registered in your jurisdiction.

Er, are you sure?

In the UK marketing: [https://www.revolut.com/a-radically-better-
account](https://www.revolut.com/a-radically-better-account)

it is described as "Free UK current account". That's the name of a full,
normal, bank account. I would expect it to have the full consumer protection,
FSCS, etc.

If it doesn't, they're committing some pretty massive advertising fraud...

~~~
johnnycab
>I would expect it to have the full consumer protection, FSCS, etc. If it
doesn't, they're committing some pretty massive advertising fraud...

You can expect all you like, but there is no UK FSCS protection. They have
frequently ran into trouble with their advertising campaigns!

[https://www.pymnts.com/news/payment-methods/2019/revolut-
ad-...](https://www.pymnts.com/news/payment-methods/2019/revolut-ad-
transactions/)

------
StavrosK
UPDATE: Revolut have emailed me in response to my official complaint (possibly
after seeing my post gain attention, I can't say for sure). They admitted it
was a mistake to decline my chargeback and have refunded me the purchase.

They also said they would take measures to avoid this from happening again,
hopefully they make good on that promise.

Thank you all very much for your help and support, I hope this doesn't happen
to anyone else.

~~~
sagebird
It's disgusting that you had to raise a shitstorm on their internal support,
then on twitter and then hacker news to get your chargeback.

Will others be savvy enough to raise this attention? I would rather that a
regulator went to bat for you and slapped them with a large fine. Because as
it stands they can do the same thing to everyone else, only give refunds when
someone raises attention and perhaps this only accounts for 1% of the cases.

They are going to take measures to swat stories down quicker before they
create bad press, but there is likely a good reason for their behavior so
expect no uniform change.

~~~
StavrosK
Yeah, that's completely inexcusable. Maybe I should have given them time to
respond to the official complaint, and maybe they would have fixed it, but I
don't want to tell a company "someone just stole 1k euros from me, please stop
them!" and hear back "it's your fault".

------
Lucadg
I used to like them but then this happened:

\- they froze my account.

\- they required documentation.

\- the chat was broken. There was no way to contact them and send the
documentation.

\- I found them in Twitter, someone from Revolut passed my issue along. No one
called me.

\- They kept messaging me in the chat. I could see the numbers piling up but
the chat was "opps something went wrong" and a blank page.

\- I tried all: cache, restart etc...I didn't want to uninstall.

\- after two weeks I took the big risk and uninstalled the app. It was very
tense...I installed it again (it worked luckily) and I could finally chat
again. Problem solved.

They never called me, I could not call them, the problem was on their end but
I had to find a way and take the risks.

Never again.

Fintech is just banks with a sleek interface and no experience after all.

[EDIT: formatting]

~~~
rkangel
Fintech has good products and bad products, just like every other sector.

Monzo, for instance, is excellent.

~~~
Lucadg
I suppose so. I guess we are coming out of the phase when a nice app was
enough to convince that "this is so much better than a bank". We're maturing
as customers.

------
sschueller
They also don't care about their employees [1][2] and I believe are now under
investigation for money laundry.[3]

[1] [https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/3/18248826/revolut-
workplace...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/3/18248826/revolut-workplace-
culture-burnout-finance-app-reports)

[2]
[https://twitter.com/phillipcaudell/status/110108122935141580...](https://twitter.com/phillipcaudell/status/1101081229351415808)

[3] [https://cryptonomist.ch/en/2019/03/01/revolut-cfo-money-
laun...](https://cryptonomist.ch/en/2019/03/01/revolut-cfo-money-laundering/)

------
tshanmu
Under PSD2 this is illegal - sadly the implementation date is in Sep 2019.
Appalling treatment and Revoult has been getting some bad press recently - you
should complain to Financial Ombudsman - [https://financial-
ombudsman.org.uk](https://financial-ombudsman.org.uk) (assuming you are
dealing with Revolut UK, and they have not switched to Revolut Payments UAB
for EU customers)

~~~
StavrosK
I already filed a complaint with them, but apparently Revolut can just refuse
to reply and that's that. They also told me as much, they said I have to file
a formal complaint with them first. They said something like "we will refuse
to process any other complaint until the formal complaint process is
complete", but since they're judge, jury and executioner on this, I don't have
much faith.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _since they 're judge, jury and executioner on this_

They’re not. It sounds like Revolut is regulated in Lithuania; complain to
them [1]. I’d also light up your own country’s national financial regulator.

(If you can find nexus with the U.K., they’re a good one to get involved [2],
too.)

[1] [https://www.lb.lt/en/sfi-disputes-between-consumers-and-
fina...](https://www.lb.lt/en/sfi-disputes-between-consumers-and-financial-
market-participants)

[2] [http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/](http://www.financial-
ombudsman.org.uk/)

~~~
treis
I had Chase screw up a similarly obvious dispute. Long story short, Newegg
send me a defective monitor, they claimed it was damaged on return, and then
dithered on the refund. After I filed a dispute Newegg sent the defective and
now broken monitor back to me. They then responded to the dispute saying I
never returned the item and gave the tracking as proof. Chase inexplicably
(how could they send back the item if I never returned it?) sided with them.

All the CFPB did for me was forward my complaint to Chase who (politely) told
me to go fuck myself.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _All the CFPB did_

CFPB is a joke. Your state financial regulator and the Fed enforce Regulation
E in the United States.

~~~
treis
Do you have a link to where I should complain?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Google <your state> financial regulator. In New York, we have the DFS [1], for
example.

Note that the rules are less strict for returns than for fraud. You’ll want to
include proof of shipping the return, but the merchant and network have some
discretion. (VISA is more consumer-friendly than MasterCard with return
chargebacks; AmEx is the best.)

[1] [https://www.dfs.ny.gov/](https://www.dfs.ny.gov/)

~~~
treis
>The Department does not regulate national banks (examples: Bank of America,
Wells Fargo, Chase, Citibank, PNC) or federal credit unions, whether operating
in Georgia or elsewhere.

[https://dbf.georgia.gov/consumer-resources](https://dbf.georgia.gov/consumer-
resources)

~~~
JumpCrisscross
It doesn't regulate, but depending on the state they'll often mediate. (New
York has mediated disputes between national banks and me, for instance.)
Otherwise, the OCC [1] is worth a try.

[1] [https://www.occ.gov/topics/consumer-protection/index-
consume...](https://www.occ.gov/topics/consumer-protection/index-consumer-
protection.html)

~~~
treis
I mean, the CFPP mediated my dispute as well. Chase told me to go fuck myself
and CFPP dutifully reported that to me. The question is whether these
organizations can sit as an objective third party, look at my dispute, and
force Chase to do the right thing.

------
s_dev
I'm with N26 -- tried signing up with Revolut as I heard they had some cool
features I didn't have with N26 e.g virtualized cards and crypto currency
support.

Signed up with my Passport and transferred €50 to the newly created Revolut
account. I wait a week still no money in the Revolut account -- contact
support. They explain I'm not registered and that I have to register first --
I'm at a loss as they could issue me an IBAN and I'm still not "registered"
\-- apprently I have to present a passport that isn't American because "they
don't accept US passports" even though they did during my onboarding -- since
I didn't have another passport available (my Irish one) I asked them to return
the money and close the account. It took them 8 weeks to return the €50 with
me chasing them everyday for the last two weeks.

I don't understand why N26 accept US passports and Revolut don't.

~~~
greatpatton
Because Revolut dones't want to have to manage FACTA and other US
extraterritorial laws. Here is Switzerland having a US passport is a good
reason to be banished from your physical bank very quickly. US passport
holders are seen as a liability and not as a customer. That's also one of the
reason that make renouncement of US citizenship quite popular in Switzerland
if you have dual citizenship.

~~~
ttoinou
I've been told it's not just being US citizen but also, for example, being US
tax resident for the current year

~~~
Havoc
US citizens and us tax residents are essentially the same burden here. Nobody
wants to deal with that unless the potential profits outway the additional
costs of the admin

------
thomersch_
"How hard must being a bank be, it's just a few numbers in a database."

After all those new-ish, app-based banks are for people with too much time on
their hands. You mostly can't talk to anyone, and when they answer it's just a
copy-paste from their FAQ. They also lack features, e.g. Kontist doesn't
support international bank transfers. Support will tell you "well it could
work, but we can't give you any assistance". I don't have six months until
your development team understands and implements some protocol!

~~~
madeofpalk
For what it's worth, Monzo seems to be the only 'challenger bank' that's
getting this right. They have the 24/7 in-app chat support that's super
helpful, but then also a phone number you can call if you're into that. My
every interaction with them as a customer has been fantastic.

~~~
oarsinsync
I've had negative but acceptable experiences with Monzo and Starling. Would
recommend both of them, and actively use both myself.

I've had negative and intolerable experiences with Curve, TransferWise, Tide,
and Revolut. I would recommend _avoiding_ all of them. Not all of them offer
banking solutions (Curve being the odd one out in that list), but the three
that do are all e-money, which I guess speaks for itself.

~~~
andrewshadura
My experience with Curve has always been great.

------
_petronius
This is why I will always bank with the old-school banks. Being able to reach
someone on the phone -- or even turn up at a branch -- makes it a lot harder
for them to ignore you when there is a major issue that needs resolving. But
then, my "traditional" bank has a very good app, and treats me extremely
nicely, even when I've had all of a few euros (or less than zero euros) in my
account.

~~~
noir_lord
Even the old school banks have their issues, HSBC and money laundering for
cartels comes to mind.

Money is power and power corrupts seems to apply too often with this stuff.

~~~
briandear
HSBC laundering money doesn’t affect my current accounts. Not saying that
issue isn’t important, but that doesn’t hurt my personal access to funds.

~~~
kweks
Don't kid yourself. Post cartel scandal, opening an HSBC account transcended
difficult to impossible in certain jurisdictions.

------
Lucadg
don't use their insurance. Recently I was in Istanbul and the insurance didn't
activate. Their app did not register me as in Turkey. All permissions were ok,
Google Maps worked and I purchased a cappuccino with the Revolut physical card
in Istanbul. Still, according to them I was not in Istanbul and there was some
problem on my end.

So, I was uninsured. Imagine if this happens when you are in the US and you
get sick. This is serious stuff, it's just too risky to let them play with it.

~~~
spuz
How do you know the insurance wasn't activated? Why does the insurance
activate based on location rather than date?

~~~
tooop
I believe that the standard card has the option to purchase insurance and it
will be billed only for those days that you were abroad. I don't think that
you have to activate anything if you have a plan that includes insurance
(premium/metal).

~~~
Lucadg
Exactly. You can't activate it manually. It's activated by the GPS.

~~~
stallmanite
If GPS can be spoofed by Pokemon Go hackers this seems like a dumb thing to
base anything important on like insurance being active or not. What the fuck?

~~~
tooop
From user perspective: What are the odds that somebody is going to follow you
when you leave your home country and do targeted GPS spoofing specifically for
you while causing some kind of accident/harm to you?

From Revolut perspective: insurance theoretically could be abused but i doubt
they haven't calculated the risks as it would mean losing money although i
don't see how this is different than me getting travel insurance online and
just providing some travel info that from X to Y i need it.

------
gregmolnar
I experienced the other end of the spectrum with Revolut. My wife saw an
advert on Facebook for a and indoor children slide, it looked quite nice for a
100 bucks and since I was busy with work, I didn't due any due diligence and
ordered the item. Received the confirmation email, then life went on. In about
2 weeks time, I remembered this order and wanted to check the progress. I
opened the order summary link from the email, but it was a 404 and oddly the
site looked very different than before, this was the first time I had a
feeling, I may have been scammed. I replied to the order email, and asked them
for a status update. There was no reply within 2 days, so I went to the site
again, and looked for the contact details. I found and email address(Gmail),
but no company details whatsoever. This was the time when I realised, I got
scammed. Anyways, I sent an email to that address, but of course there was no
reply. A day later and decided to figure out where is the site hosted and
going back to the contact form, I found a new contact email address(an Outlook
one). Since then, I checked the site a few times and the contact address was a
different one multiple times. Anyways, I realised it is a scam, found out the
site is on Shopify, reached out to them and they directed me to my bank. I
contacted Revolut, briefed them about what happened, and they started the
chargeback process. Oddly a few days after they did that, I got another email
from the merchant with a tracking code. In about 2 weeks I received a fidget
spinner like plastic crap from China, which I never ordered. I notified
Revolut about this too and they also told me, the merchant sent them proof me
doing the transaction and want not to allow the chargeback, but since I said
at the beginning it was me doing the transaction, just never received the
items, I just need to fill out another form, stating this and they will carry
on, trying to get my money back. As of today, I still didn't get my money back
and I am not sure I ever will, but Revolut was really helpful during the
process so far. I am more dissapointed with Shopify, I thought they vet their
merchants or at least care about reports of misconducting ones, but they
didn't give a crap about me telling them about a scam site running at them. I
also found crazy that they don't force the merchant to disclose company
details, that's required by the law in many countries.

------
literallycancer
Take the bank to small claims:

[https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/consumers-
di...](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/consumers-dispute-
resolution/formal-legal-actions/index_en.htm)

[https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-
customers...](https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-
customers/solving-disputes/european-small-claims-procedure/index_en.htm)

~~~
StavrosK
This is great, thanks, I plan to. I was going to file with the UK small claims
court because I didn't know which jurisdiction, but this is perfect, thank
you.

------
AdrianB1
Before I signed up for Revolut I did a bit of research and found some
incidents that made me more cautious than usual. Unfortunately at the end of
my analysis I found no better option, so I signed up. But knowing what I do, I
have 2 rules:

\- don't keep a significant sum there; not more than what I can afford to
loose if things go wrong

\- keep unused features disabled at all times, activate and deactivate
features or card only when I want to use it. Practically my card is blocked
until I want to use it and blocked again as soon as I paid.

My balance today is ~ $35. I will top up when I need to pay more, it is enough
for a coffee, a snack or to fill in gas (I ride a bike, even with expensive
European gas it's still ~ $25 for a full tank).

~~~
sschueller
I had good luck with tranferwise.

~~~
blunte
I’ve been happy with TransferWise for years as well. Their support is decent,
and their products/services are some of the best available.

------
ajdlinux
FWIW - having to wait for pending transactions to post before filing a
chargeback is how traditional banks have treated me, and I'm guessing is
probably just part of the Visa/Mastercard dispute resolution process (someone
who knows better might correct me here). Though you'd think a next-gen mobile-
only bank would be able to put some additional automation around the process
so that they would contact you again on the day the transaction posts to
confirm you want to go through with a chargeback, or something like that.

The rest of the story looks really, really bad for Revolut - I have never had
a traditional bank speak to me like that before.

~~~
StavrosK
> having to wait for pending transactions to post before filing a chargeback
> is how traditional banks have treated me

Yeah, I guess they have a reason for doing that, though I don't know what it
is. Still, I would have thought they can cancel it in cases of fraud? Maybe
it's so you can't "dine and dash" or similar.

~~~
wooptoo
That's why they are called _transactions_. They are an immutable journal of
amounts coming in and going out.

------
packetpirate
Why the hell would you even use a "virtual" card? With the rate at which
personal data is being stolen day after day and companies as large as Equifax
being breached, why would you trust your money with an all-virtual bank?
Especially one that is so new? It's just asking for trouble. I've had the same
bank since I was 17 and they have literally never let me down, and the couple
of times I had a fraudulent transaction occur, they automatically flagged it
and called me to ask if it was legitimate.

~~~
tooop
Virtual card is a disposable card that you can use X times (or whatever you
set it up). For example, i use virtual cards for services that require CC info
in order to register for trial, this way i don't have to remember about my
trials expiring and getting charged (because i set the virtual card to be used
only once / delete it right after i have used it).

------
TooSmugToFail
Revolut indeed does not care for you.

I was one of the early adopters and their ardent evangelist. I probably hooked
more than 10 people to Revolut. Before they were giving any incentives for
referrals.

But their customer support turned to shit, their exchange rates became less
'fair', and their service became much, much worse.

A few examples...

(1) I traveled to the US, had troubles activating the travel insurance,
contacted customer support, got it working. All good. A few months later, I
find weird charges on my account. Contact customer support, ask about the
charges. Turns out they charged me insurance fee for days that I was
apparently insured, a month later. Best part: I had absolutely zero proof that
I was insured at the time I was supposedly insured (take a guess how that
would work out for me if I had to make a claim).

(2) I was trying to use their travel insurance again (between my first trip,
and their fraudulent charge). The insurance is supposed to auto-activate when
you travel abroad, but it did not. Contact customer support as soon as I
realised (after arriving to the US), but they refused to activate it cause I
already reached my destination. Had to get a different insurance, having to
drive 1.000 km in the US without health insurance, before my new travel
insurance kicked in. Luckily, nothing happened.

(3) We tried to open a company account. Us three owners were registered as
authorised persons in the application form. Our application got refused, no
explanation. Plus they froze PERSONAL accounts of my two co-founders for
around two weeks. No access to their funds, no explanation. Try contacting the
customer support, only to have a bot spew boilerplate nonsense at you. After a
few weeks, their accounts just started working again. Explanation? Apology?
You wish.

Bottom line is, they can't be trusted, let alone relied upon for anything even
remotely important.

Worst thing is their entire pitch was about how they are on a mission to
improve 'bad old banks', yet they failed on very fundamentals of banking.

For me, they are a Ryanair of financial services: cheap, but will screw you if
they get a chance; and good luck if _anything_ goes wrong.

A few days ago they sent an email offering their Metal cards for referrals. A
few years ago I was doing that for free. Today there is no chance I would
recommend Revolut to anyone.

------
totaldude87
Its funny to see that "Digital" only banks are failing to solve the problems
which they were created for :)

------
freneticks
Very interesting. I must say that I have always been interested in this
application, but when I see that on exodus it is listed 8 trackers + 40
permissions I conclude only one thing : I am the product that must be sold.

------
yaseer
Thanks for posting this.

I haven't yet got on the 'challenger bank bandwagon' mainly due to laziness.

This has made me a lot more hesitant to do so. Certainly not with revolut, who
are now notorious for a broken growth-first mindset.

~~~
ForHackernews
I've been using Transferwise for a while now, and at least on the face of it,
they seem quite boring and sensible. They're the first non-bank that's been
granted direct access to the UK's faster payments network.

~~~
StavrosK
Do TransferWise let you keep money with them and give you a card? I thought
they were just a transfers company.

~~~
ForHackernews
That used to be the case. They've recently launched their "Borderless Account"
that comes with its own debit card:
[https://transferwise.com/gb/borderless/](https://transferwise.com/gb/borderless/)

(the card is an ugly neon green, but works fine in my experience)

~~~
sschueller
The card just happens to the same color as my 3d printer wallet :)
[https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3218830](https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3218830)

------
chx
There is a simple yardstick that made me stay far, far away from Revolut: they
deal with bitcoin. I will never trust a single cent of my money on such a
company. So far the conduct of Bitcoin exchanges didn't impart the impression
of responsible companies. Oftentimes you have downright conmen running them.
This is not to say Revolut is cooking the books but touching bitcoin by a
fiscal company carries a stench, one that I don't want close to my money.

~~~
StavrosK
They don't _actually_ deal with cryptocurrencies (like, you can't buy BTC with
them). They just added tickers and let you gamble with the price.

~~~
chx
Huh? [https://www.revolut.com/exchange-
cryptocurrency](https://www.revolut.com/exchange-cryptocurrency) "Instantly
exchange any of our 29 currencies directly into Bitcoin, Litecoin, Ethereum,
Bitcoin Cash and XRP, and all without breaking a sweat."

~~~
StavrosK
Yeah, they don't let you withdraw or deposit any. You have to convert it back
to fiat to withdraw.

~~~
chx
Interesting service. [https://www.revolut.com/help/exploring-
revolut/exchanging-cr...](https://www.revolut.com/help/exploring-
revolut/exchanging-cryptocurrencies/what-can-t-i-do-with-revolut-
cryptocurrency/can-i-transfer-my-cryptocurrency-interest-to-another-wallet/)

> You will not be able to transfer cryptocurrency interests to outside of the
> Revolut platform, eg. external wallets.

And [https://www.revolut.com/en-DE/help/exploring-
revolut/exchang...](https://www.revolut.com/en-DE/help/exploring-
revolut/exchanging-cryptocurrencies/what-can-t-i-do-with-revolut-
cryptocurrency/can-i-receive-cryptocurrencies-sent-to-my-revolut-account/)

> You can receive cryptocurrency interests sent by another Revolut user.
> However, you will not be able to receive cryptocurrencies sent from outside
> of the Revolut platform, eg. external wallets

Nonetheless, they must be buying and holding crypto"currency" which is enough
for me to disqualify. It's better than going full exchange but still.

~~~
StavrosK
> Nonetheless, they must be buying and holding crypto"currency" which is
> enough for me to disqualify. It's better than going full exchange but still.

They don't need to, really. They just need to pay you if the price goes up.
You're selling them fiat for the promise that they'll buy it back at some
point for the new price.

~~~
chx
> They don't need to, really. They just need to pay you if the price goes up.

That'd introduce a risk to Revolut no sane company can possible take.

------
dastx
Had a similar thing happen to me a few years back. I don't remember ecact
numbers details. It was around 1am or so, I was binging some show when I got a
notification.

I check it, and it's a notification from Revolut. A cash withdrawal was just
declined. Okay, interesting. I open it, turns out, someone has tried to
withdraw some £600+ from account. From Las Vegas. I thought "but I'm in bed,
at home, in London. And I certainly don't have an ATM in my house. I'm too
poor for that shit".

I think nothing of it, since I've had cash withdrawals disabled anyway.

Few minutes later, another attempt. This time, a little less, £400 or so. I
quickly deactivate the card and contact customer support.

They barely cared. They didn't care about the transaction. They didn't care
about all the questions I had. I asked a bunch of questions to see where the
people have received the data. Who has reported my card as stolen. Where
exactly it was used in Las Vegas, etc etc. Nothing. They couldn't provide me
with anything.

------
ForHackernews
> You can never rely on banks to give you your money back, since they want
> their fraud statistics to remain low, even if that means refusing you your
> money.

Isn't Revolut explicitly _not_ a bank? I thought it was some kind of non-bank
pseudo-gift card FinTech thing?

I've never had any problems disputing transactions with my normal regular
boring bank that doesn't have an app.

~~~
xorcist
They seem to be, as per last December:

[https://blog.revolut.com/we-got-a-banking-
licence/](https://blog.revolut.com/we-got-a-banking-licence/)

------
Shivetya
The story is just bizarre and I do not understand how the card issuer/bank can
act like that in good faith, of course we only have one side here. Still it
really comes off as an organization who acting in a space they are not
qualified to be in. Let me guess, they started out to disrupt this space?

anecdotal+ As for his comments about banks not wanting to act on fraud, I have
had two fraudulent CC transactions in one year and both times I felt as in my
bank and Visa did very well. I also had two issues with Ebay where they and
PayPal reacted quickly in my favor. I think for the most part those who are
experienced in this arena are quick to act to preserve their reputation
because that is what people see, they don't see their "fraud" reports.

~~~
StavrosK
You do have one side, but I can show you the entire conversation. They don't
have a phone number you can call, so that's literally the whole story.

~~~
aflag
Relevant parts of the chat may have been left out, though. Also there could be
previous record.

------
Daniel_sk
Get an account with a reputable bank. In my bank I have a personal banker that
I can contact (phone, email, message) in case I need anything (you will get
this privilege after a certain amount of income per month, but it's easily
reached if you work in IT). I was even able to get money back after I paid for
something that I never received (simple debit card). And also many people
forget that you may need a larger mortage or loan in the future and I don't
think Revolut will help you with this. And in the case of my bank they have a
modern mobile and web application, I am not missing anything (Face ID, Touch
ID, virtual card generator, retrieve money from ATM with a generated code from
the mobile app, open account from mobile app...).

~~~
StavrosK
Unfortunately, banks in Greece aren't in good shape or very convenient. I also
just didn't think this could ever happen.

~~~
fevangelou
Actually I had a similar issue with my Piraeus Bank credit card being stolen
while I was on a trip in Italy (back in 2011). They charged my card over 3300
EUR after I returned to Greece. Went over to the nearest branch, looked at the
transactions with the representative, signed a document that I never made them
and that was it. No funds lost. All transactions were cancelled in a few days,
new card issued.

Keep in mind that the fraudulent transactions were similar (air tickets etc.).

It's really sad that Revolut didn't even attempt to contact the ticket
vendors. This must be nerve-cracking...

~~~
StavrosK
It is :( Piraeus is pretty cool, their apps have been convenient. The biggest
issue with me is that I can't split bills with my friends because it costs 3
euros and takes a day to send money to a different account, while Revolut
makes that use case easy.

Not "1057 EUR" easy, though.

~~~
nsgf
Have you checked the bank's IRIS online payments?

~~~
StavrosK
I have not, I wasn't aware of it. I will look into it, thanks!

------
noisy_boy
Maybe I'm just old but I would never put my money in an institution where I
can't go to their branch/office and talk to a human. Typically this is hardly
needed with all the digital convenience but when things go wrong, it is truly
worth it.

~~~
icebraining
That's not a guarantee anymore; in some banks here, the person behind the desk
is just a glorified form filler. Everything has to go to the central offices
anyway.

~~~
noisy_boy
Yes depends where you are; where I am, there are still some people in the
branches who know how to do their job.

------
virtualritz
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'm cancelling my Revolut account.

------
olivermarks
[https://www.zdnet.com/article/fintech-bankings-frozen-
custom...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/fintech-bankings-frozen-customer-
account-nightmares-problem/)

[https://www.zdnet.com/article/revoluts-clumsy-automated-
fint...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/revoluts-clumsy-automated-fintech-bank-
compliance-results-in-frozen-accounts-and-lack-of-customer-service/)

Two widely read posts I wrote on ZDNet in January

------
imartin2k
So far I’ve had only great experiences with Revolut. Using them mostly when
abroad, the currency exchange features are nifty, as is the fact that you can
load up with money from credit cards with no fee (in the EU). Generally I find
them pretty innovative and way superior to all traditional banks I’ve ever
been a customer of.

But it’s obvious that this doesn’t translate into an equally good experience
once there are problems.

So this case is a good reminder to use these neobanks mindfully and to not put
too many eggs in this basket.

------
spurgu
I had a similar issue around two years ago (multiple travel transactions, some
Indian), although it was one of my physical cards (which I had barely used
anywhere). I didn't have enough funds at the time so nothing was charged and I
immediately reported the card stolen. After this I've tried to keep my balance
below €300 with the rest in vaults to minimize the risk - whenever I need to
make a larger transaction I just withdraw money from the vaults before.

------
Jefff8
Thank you for posting this: I had been considering using them.

------
novaleaf
He's using a debit card, not a credit card.

Non refundable debit card purchases isn't a problem unique to Revolut.

If this happened with a bank of america debit card, you'd face the same
problem. This is why I explicitly refuse to carry debit cards. Only ATM cards
and credit cards.

If you use DEBIT cards, you don't get the same kind of protections you get
with CREDIT cards.

~~~
awinder
Yes, that, and credit cards also have +30 days of float essentially built in.
So when you run into billing errors or fraud you have time for it to unwind
itself / you won't have actively lost money until you need to settle up.

------
ipython
I find it weird they accused you of lying, considering every time I purchase
airline tickets the bank receives the full ticket information including the
PNR (name information and ticket number) for the issued ticket.

For fraudsters wouldn’t that be a huge risk ordering tickets in your own name?
Or is there another dimension I’m missing here?

~~~
StavrosK
Seriously! I have no idea, I assume they can just call the merchant up and ask
whose name the tickets were purchased in. I'm pretty sure they won't be in
mine, what would be the purpose of that? The scammer just wasted a bunch of
tickets if so.

I don't know why they don't just call the merchant and get the details. I
tried but they wouldn't give me anything or revert the transaction.

Also, I just realize there's yet another, even larger declined transaction in
the GBP tab (after I canceled the card). So the fraudster actually tried to
buy _even more_ travel stuff.

------
thefounder
Credit/debit cards are outdated and should be replaced by flexible and safer
methods that allow fine-grained control over the payment (i.e one time
payment, recurring, limits on recurring etc).

Everyone with your card number can take money from your account. How stupid is
that? Like giving the user/pass of your online banking.

~~~
StavrosK
Exactly, I don't understand why we can't do "push" money transfers and we have
to do "pull"... Cryptocurrencies have a much better use case when it comes to
the transaction UX. I also think some countries like the Netherlands have a
"push" system that seems convenient.

~~~
icebraining
Many countries have that (e.g. Portugal has had it for over a decade), the
problem is that they generally don't work across borders. Hopefully SEPA can
help with that.

------
stefek99
Publicity driven support.

Twitter is too big to care:
[https://steemit.com/twitter/@genesisre/decentralizeeverythin...](https://steemit.com/twitter/@genesisre/decentralizeeverything-9-years-
on-twitter-with-no-right-to-appeal)

9 years, had to totally rethink my online identity.

Massive blow.

------
rgaino
Revolut also blatantly copied Spotify's ad campaign.
[https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/turkey-week-
revolut-t...](https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/turkey-week-revolut-took-
inspiration-read-ripped-off-spotify/1524278)

------
codedokode
It is very dangerous to use banking apps or sites from Android phone. Please
Google how many "root" exploits are around. Any application or website can
attack your phone, and if it succeeds then your money are gone. You should use
a phone only as a second factor for authentication.

------
PedroBatista
Revolut will "win" because of that.

It's well known the working conditions at Revolut are appalling and a complete
meat grinder. Top execs have a gangster attitude and have no problem
backstabbing their way to the top.

The financial/banking sector is a fertile ground for them, so they will not
fail.

------
mcv
I'm still baffled that "leaking card details" is enough to compromise an
account. You'd think money would have better security than some random
website, but instead you basically need the equivalent of just the login and
no password to get access to the money.

------
vendiddy
Thanks for sharing. I was considering signing up for them but definitely not
going to risk it now.

------
nerder92
From the way in which the CEO of this company treats he's own employees you
can imagine how he will treat he's clients. This company is just toxic, there
are other better options that solves the same problem, N26, Monzo etc check
them out

~~~
codedokode
No sources, no links, nice comment. Aren't you working for a competitor?

~~~
nerder92
I thought it was not necessary since this story gets HN homepage not so long
ago.

The initial tweet:
[https://twitter.com/phillipcaudell/status/110108122935141580...](https://twitter.com/phillipcaudell/status/1101081229351415808?lang=en)

The HN discussione about it:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19280131](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19280131)

Note: I don't work for a competitors, but i hate this kind of toxic company
cultures since i've been working in similar environments in the past, and this
for me is already a strong "ethical" motivator to not use such product.

------
solaris152000
I notice a couple of the transactions there are in Greece. I am a Brit living
in Greece, and I am SURE some very reputable Greek websites are compromised.
My card details get leaked when I buy on Greek sites, I am sure it's them.

------
ecmascript
Always had a feeling about this company. Thanks for bringing it to my
attention. I'll be closing my account after this summer.

I only signed up because no other service offers virtual credit cards that you
can only use 1 time. :/

------
mikl
News flash: No corporation cares about you.

Some might look good, but that is not because they _care_ about _you_. It's
because doing good things make their customers and employees happy, and thus
keeps the money flowing.

~~~
mcherm
Look, if your response to encountering terrible customer service is to declare
that everyone has terrible customer service then you were likely to continue
to receive terrible customer service.

If, instead, your response to receiving terrible customer service where to say
"this company is awful!", and take your business to someone else with better
customer service then perhaps the companies with better service will thrive.

~~~
mikl
I'm just addressing the headline. Saying "BigCorp doesn't care about you" is
tautological.

That aside, pointing out evil deeds of corporations and punishing them by
taking our business elsewhere is __exactly __the solution I 'm recommending.

~~~
StavrosK
Replace "doesn't care about you" with "doesn't think that keeping you happy is
in their financial interest" and there is no loss of clarity. The former rolls
off the tongue much more easily, though.

------
sails
As a user of both Revolut and Monzo, thumbs up for Monzo, I’ve had minor
issues dealt with very quickly and successfully.

Revoult has a slightly broader feature set, leading to these issues, whereas
Monzo does core banking really well.

------
esalman
> "I’m extremely careful about my financial security ... Revolut is one of a
> new generation of banks that are app-only"

I wouldn't open an account with this bank if I were careful about my financial
security.

------
Improvotter
I'm moving to the UK soon and was looking at Monzo for my bank. Looking at
Monzo, not Revolut, and others, which ones would everyone here recommend for
bank accounts, debit cards, and credit cards?

------
aginovski
Btw, there is a procedure in all banks called dispute request (chargeback
request). None of the banks will give you the money back to your debit card
without the knowledge of the seller. Imagine how many free items or service
you can get if that's possible. So it's not about Revolut.

To open a dispute the transaction needs to be settled. After that Revolut or
any other bank can give you the option to fill the form and start the dispute
procedure where the seller can place their arguments against it.

After you submit a dispute the card issuer will review both arguments and make
a decision (it depends on the bank). Most of the times when the seller doesn't
submit evidence against the dispute you'll receive your money back.

~~~
luckylion
> Btw, there is a procedure in all banks called dispute request (chargeback
> request). None of the banks will give you the money back to your debit card
> without the knowledge of the seller. Imagine how many free items or service
> you can get if that's possible. So it's not about Revolut.

When my wallet was stolen years ago, the thieves immediately used my VISA to
buy clothes worth ~700 euros. When I realized it was gone, I informed by bank
who disabled my cards. I was told to just wait for the statement, mark all
sales that I didn't do or authorize. I did that and faxed them a copy, the
money was back in my account the next day.

You can "get" free items this way, but you'd commit fraud, and if you get
caught, you're going to jail. You can also get free money by robbing a bank,
but it's not recommended for similar reasons ;)

~~~
aginovski
Stolen card is a different type of thing. In that case they need to prove that
the card is stolen (like from where the transaction is made and so on, there
are procedures). And it often takes a while and several calls from the bank
during the investigation. It was like that for me also 2 years ago when I got
my card stolen. They called me several times to ask me questions.

~~~
luckylion
To the card company, the difference between a stolen card that was used by
thieves and a seller that fraudulently charges a card is whether you still
have access to the card. In both cases, the account holder hasn't authorized
the payment, therefore the payment processor had no valid order to process the
payment. Since the agreement you have with the card issuer generally only
covers authorized payments, they have little ground to stand on unless they
can prove that either you did in fact authorize those charges (fraud) or acted
with gross negligence (sharing your details with a third party in ways not
intended, so not in a payment process).

A payment processor isn't (at least where I am) entrusted with any special
powers to make judgement calls on whether you deserve your money back based on
a potentially existing contract between you and a third party - that's the
court's job. Cooperating with them makes it easier, speeds up the process and
ensures an ongoing relationship with them, but you don't have to prove that
your card was stolen (which is hard to do anyhow) - they have to prove that it
was you that authorized the charge. Getting your money back without their
cooperation may involve taking them to court though.

There's a similar thing with SEPA direct debit. You can pull money from any
account (it's trust-based; you're required to provide documentation showing
that you were authorized to do so when asked), but the account holder can pull
it back for a certain amount of time (iirc, it's six weeks, at least here).
The banks do not act as a judge here, they simply put your money back into
your account and inform the other bank that the charge has been reversed who
then in turn takes it out of the pulling account. If the other account holder
believes the charge back to be unlawful (i.e. fraud, or or a charge back
because of insufficient balance), they have to bring legal action, but they
can't use the bank as a tool in the process.

------
fatline
very sorry to hear that. Debit cards are convenient etc, but they don't offer
much in terms of fraud protection. The general suggestion is to always use a
credit card instead so that you don't expose your own money to theft, but the
bank's.

This is among the most important learnings you can get from Frank Abagnale's
talk at Google
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsMydMDi3rI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsMydMDi3rI))

------
vectorEQ
"So I’m extremely careful about my financial security," "one of a new
generation of banks that are app-only"

sounds legit... :s

------
Double_a_92
People are actually using revolut as a bank to store their savings on?

I always saw it more as a fancy prepaid creditcard.

------
grenoire
Another PayPal, another decade.

~~~
StavrosK
PayPal almost always sides with the consumer, at least. Revolut's treatment
was inexcusable. I've been a customer for three years and use them every day,
I did not expect to be treated like this in a million years.

This would also never have happened if the message said anything more than
"you've reached the limit". Even the mention of amount would have made me
immediately suspicious. As it happened, I just didn't think of fraud, or know
which card hit the limit, so I just went absent-mindedly fiddling with them.

~~~
pteraspidomorph
"They can’t even give a list of all my data under the GDPR so I can see
myself, which seems illegal."

You're in Greece? Under the GDPR they're legally required to give you all the
data they have on you; this is non-negotiable. I hope you included that in
your complaint.

As for the rest, I guess they're just garbage and I'm glad to know I don't
ever want to be using their services. Maybe someone from Revolut will chime in
here and try to explain the situation.

~~~
luckylion
> Under the GDPR they're legally required to give you all the data they have
> on you; this is non-negotiable.

To play devil's advocate: they might argue that the fraudulent transaction
contains/might contain PII of the fraudster and they are protecting his
privacy. Sounds crazy, but I wouldn't be that surprised.

~~~
StavrosK
They refused to give me _my_ information too, though. I wanted all the data
they had on my transactions so I could analyze my card usage.

All the fraudulent transaction has is amount/merchant/date and card, it
doesn't have any of the fraudster's info on it.

~~~
luckylion
Would love to hear an update when/if you hear back from GDPR compliance
officials.

~~~
StavrosK
I will update the post with any updates, if any.

------
zakk
And that's why you should get a credit card from a real bank, rather than a
debit card. With a credit card, in case of fraud, the bank will most likely
side with you.

(Talking about Europe, not sure the same applies outside Europe, for instance
the American banking system is quite different...)

~~~
tluyben2
EU as well and anecdotal; I have 3 dutch bank accounts with CCs, Spanish one
with Debitcard and Revolut debit card. Chargebacks on the Spanish are the
easiest; I mail my bank and they refund whatever I ask them no questions
asked. Revolut does so as well but they ask questions. The Dutch Cc ones are
the worst; they require a lengthy process and sometimes they still do not side
with me even though it is rather obvious. However, if they detect them
themselves (the fraud transactions) then they do reverse without issues: I am
talking about the ones I report (over many years; it does not happen often,
and only in countries that do not use chip and pin for most transactions like
US, some places in HK etc).

------
pjc50
It's a failure, but it's absolutely not unique to challenger banks. Just
remember the news availability heuristic - you're seeing this because it's
tech news.

If you want to read more banking horror stories there's
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/jessica-
investigates/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/jessica-investigates/)
(paywall, also most of the rest of the Telegraph is bad) or the
MoneySavingExpert forums. _Business_ banking can be even worse customer
service: [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/rbs-
investi...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/rbs-
investigation-grg-fca-whitewash-small-businesses-a8957391.html)

------
ddebernardy
Revolut already made headlines a few months ago:

[https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1101193984871870464](https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1101193984871870464)

------
strzibny
This is disturbing (I also have Revolut).

------
teekert
Can they do this without the CVC code?

------
huffmsa
A partially related (Identity theft) write up for the US system.

Tl;dr send physical mail to their legal and compliance people, send copies to
the regulating government institutions. Paper paper paper.

[https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-
credit-r...](https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-
reports/)

------
ppcdeveloper
hmmm...this company is coming to the US per it's website. Hmmm ...smh.

------
trickstra
> They can’t even give a list of all my data under the GDPR

GDPR specifically states the opposite - that they have to give you all the
data they have about you when you ask.

------
anilakar
I was under the impression that banks were required to know their customers,
which at least until this point has basically required you to visit a physical
office with a passport and answer the standard anti-laundering questionnaire.
This pretty much has meant that these online-only banks have been illegal to
operate. Apparently the "FinTech" boom has resulted in a new low...

~~~
AdrianB1
They require a passport photo. The anti-laundering part is in the requirements
for proof of income, but only for significant amounts in the account or
transactioned. For a couple of hundred euro per month they don't ask that.

