
Women programmers make 95 cents to the dollar men earn - ginatrapani
http://narrowthegapp.com/?i=60
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jack-r-abbit
"Computer programmer" is such a generic term that I think a 5% gap in average
salary is meaningless without presenting it with other data. Web or Desktop?
Windows, Android or iOS? What languages?

Language makes a difference. I know some languages fetch a higher pay. So if,
for instance, more women are taking up a lower paid programming skill it is
unfair to compare that salary with those of other programmers with a higher
paid skill.

Geography makes a difference. I'm pretty sure a programmer in Wichita, KS is
not making the same as one Mountain View, CA. So if more women are programming
in a lower paying region it is unfair to compare with higher paying regions.

I understand that we as a whole have a much shorter attention span than in the
past. But a single sentence does not make a good argument. I need more info
before I'm willing to become outraged by some $3,432/year gap. As I look
around my office right now at the programmers here, I'm sure we have a salary
gap that big (or bigger)... and we don't even have any women programmers. ;)

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beloch
Here's a question (that will probably get me down-voted generously):

Is the cost to employers of hiring women the same as it is for hiring men?

e.g. Parental leave. More women than men take it. What does it cost a company
when a woman goes on maternity leave? In the U.S., are they required to pay
her wages during her leave? In many situations they will have no choice but to
fill the position with a temporary worker since the woman is guaranteed the
option to return. How much does it cost a company to hire a short-term
replacement? The replacement may demand higher wages for short-term work and
be less productive while learning the job. Will the woman be as productive
when she returns as when she left? What additional costs crop up if the woman
opts not to return? Does the state or federal government offer any kind of
"baby credit" to employers to offset these expenses?

Yes, I agree that discrimination is bad but, if there is a real financial
reason behind it, it's not going to go away without making some changes.

~~~
dfxm12
In the US (where this data is from), both men & women are legally allowed to
have 12 weeks parental leave (unpaid). There is a handful of states that pay a
portion of the salary to women (fewer to men) who take parentnal leave
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#Americas>).

 _Parental leave. More women than men take it._

Can you prove this to be true? In addition, can you include all types of leave
& break the info down by gender and prove that women take 5% more leave than
men on average? All kinds of people take sabbaticals for all kinds of reasons
(not just parenthood). This might appear to be an interesting thought
exercise, but there are too many variables involved to say the possibility of
maternity leave means hiring women costs more than hiring men...

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sp332
Do you think it's up to employers to pay women the same amount they pay men,
just because they're women? What I mean is, each employee negotiates
individually. I don't think that employers think "I think I'll pay this guy an
extra 5.2% just because he's a dude." I think the real problem is that women
(in aggregate) are negotiating 5% lower pay for themselves than men (in
aggregate) are.

Edit: I guess what I'm asking is What's the call to action? Should we give all
women in tech a 5% raise because we feel guilty?

~~~
pessimizer
But what you "don't think that employers think" and "think the real problem
is" isn't really backed up by anything but your views of employers and women,
is it?

~~~
sp332
Yeah, it's been mentioned before.
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3289750> And I realize that arguing
about salary differences is very uncool on international Women's Day, but
really I am worried about the _lack_ of women in tech much more than I worry
about a 5% salary difference.

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voidr
Guess what, some male programers earn more than double than other male
programers "doing the same job".

Most salary negotiations are private, so if any conclusions are to be drawn it
is the fact that women are 5% less effective at negotiating.

Also it's hard to take this seriously without exact numbers. It's hard to
credibly measure this because there are a lot more male programmers.

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guan
As far as I can tell, those are raw numbers without controlling for
experience, education, etc. It doesn’t sound so bad compared with other
industries. You could easily imagine that women programmers on average have 5%
less experience or skill than male programmers; the difference may not even be
statistically significant.

~~~
gamechangr
Totally agree. It's a tiring issue that is constantly "looped" without real
information.

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bsphil
My first thought was "that seems a lot better than other industries". Wasn't
expecting such a negative page.

Not that I'm against equal pay, but I was thinking it would go in a totally
different direction.

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jimktrains2
An average without a sigma, how useful!

~~~
tylerritchie
I'd actually be interested in running the numbers on this data, but I don't
really want to grab actual numbers from at the DOL.

Tangentially, I also also find it interesting that yours is the only comment
that calls the numbers into question and doesn't imply that women actually
deserve 5% less pay (controlling for experience, cost to employers,
negotiating tactics). Though, to be fair, guan does mention that it might be
statistically insignificant as an aside.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
Tangentially, I do believe my comment also calls the numbers into question and
doesn't imply that women actually deserve 5% less pay. I would never advocate
for a person to make more/less money solely based on gender (or race, sexual
preference, religion, etc for that matter). But there are a good number of
possible and logical reasons why such a sub-set of a population might, in
fact, make less money statistically.

Yes, one can argue that some programmers make 5% less money BECAUSE they are
women (cause and effect). While others can just as well argue that some
programmers make 5% less money AND they are women (two unrelated facts).

Mark Twain wrote in his autobiography: "There are three kinds of lies: lies,
damned lies, and statistics."

