
Propaganda on Tumblr - apsec112
http://eatingcroutons.tumblr.com/post/172200422456/this-is-what-state-sponsored-propaganda-looks-like
======
eganist
Since there is already unsourced commentary here, in the spirit of fact-
checking, I'll add a solid source for those of you wondering who the state
actor is:

[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/24/tumblr-
sa...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/24/tumblr-says-russia-
used-it-for-fake-news-during-2016-election)

More directly,

[https://tumblr.zendesk.com/hc/en-
us/articles/360002280214](https://tumblr.zendesk.com/hc/en-
us/articles/360002280214)

\---

Vet before you fret.

~~~
fvdessen
There is also vast amount of astroturfing by the USA & NATO Spy agencies,
although I suspect it's a bit more risky for tumblr to report on those.

~~~
eganist
> There is also vast amount of astroturfing by the USA & NATO Spy agencies

Source? Not saying you're wrong, just suggesting it flies in the face of this
thread to make any assertion without a properly sourced citation.

~~~
baursak
[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-
op...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-
social-networks)

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/03/us-cuban-
twitt...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/03/us-cuban-twitter-
zunzuneo-stir-unrest)

~~~
conistonwater
Did you even read those articles? They do not show "vast amount of
astroturfing by the USA & NATO Spy agencies", which was the claim upthread.

------
zeth___
1). Attack conservatives as 'Russian agents' and remove their online
platforms.

2). Attack liberals as 'Russian agents' and remove their online platforms.

3). Only let corporate friendly publications have online platforms since you
can't trust anyone else.

You'd think people would have realized this would happen since it's what
always happens when you start silencing opinions you don't agree with.

~~~
bilbo0s
Unfortunately these days we're forced to consider the possibility that even
your post is part of a professional manipulation campaign. Or mine. Or every
other post out here.

We just don't know.

That's the crux of the problem for me. Nowadays, I'm so jaded that I trust no
one.

It's sad. I've lost trust, and I don't think I can get it back.

~~~
landryraccoon
Does trust mean automatically taking for granted the truth of anonymous
statements you read online?

If so that trust never should have existed in the first place, and it should
be gone forever.

~~~
golergka
That's exactly what was written on 4chan's /b/ for years. Despite having a
ridiculous reputation, this place was always excellent at helping it's users
develop the right attitude toward internet in general: don't trust anyone,
don't let your emotions take control, and don't be so damn serious.

~~~
watwut
The last descriptor I would use for 4chan is "cold calm rational".

~~~
golergka
You clearly haven't spent enough time on it - that's exactly the qualities
that it trains within you, although the method it uses is kinda harsh.

~~~
watwut
It is a place where people go to with their uncontrolled emotional outbursts.
Which is their thing when those outbursts don't have impact on rest of the
world and really not fine when it leaks outside.

Yes, swear words lost all their meaning for many on 4chan. That does not make
people using them any more rational.

~~~
forgottenpass
It's not about sharpening your wits thorough osmosis, it's about seeing
nonsense laid bare at your feet. Leveraging that to see through the pretense
of "smarter" conversation to understand it's the exact same stuff: shit-
flinging, misleading but plausible half-lies, active propaganda, underinformed
dummies thinking they're having a deep conversation, etc...

The zen that parent poster describes comes when you recognize that your
favorite political commentator, or the thing your best friend just said over
coffee are not inherently smarter or dumber than 4chan.

edit: w/r/t "leaking outside.": The problem isn't that Trump was meme-ed into
the whitehouse. The problem is that paternalistic control of messaging will
never equip the populace to evaluate something as nonsense when the parents
aren't around to stop the message from propagating.

~~~
watwut
By leaking outside I meant a.) coordinated harassment b.) people being shocked
that the rest of world does not share 4chan habits and culture - including
channers being honestly shocked that people react negatively to unrelated
Hitler meme used as argument and not taking author as some king of genius for
that. Because channer using hitler and nazi symbolism did not even realized
what those things means or were (except general understanding that it was
something edgy).

I don't really think Trump got to white house bc 4chan, I believe his voters
voted him because he represents them as he is.

------
coldtea
What's troubling to me (as a non-American and non-Russian) is the mere "As
part of our commitment to transparency we will be maintaining this list of
usernames that we have determined were engaged in state-sponsored
disinformation and propaganda campaigns.".

Where's the relevant information about that? I see a "blacklist" of sorts,
that should be taken at face value, because some "state agent" (or, worse,
social media site) says so.

~~~
bilbo0s
For what it's worth, the information you're looking for must be out there,
because the author's central premise is that he gained access to the list and
remembered one of the accounts. (Of course, that assumes both that the author
of the article is not a professional message manipulator, AND that the author
is telling the truth. Reasonable people can be forgiven for being skeptical
about every post that is even remotely political these days.)

What's disappointing is how jaded I've become due to all the new information
out there about what professional manipulation has done to the internet's
forums and web sites. Even HN is not immune to it.

Unfortunately, I have an almost automatic skepticism towards every semi
political post I read now.

I'm not even sure this problem can be solved while the internet persists in
its current form. It's sad.

~~~
qubex
The list you mention was included in a mass-mail that Tumblr sent out
yesterday to users that had interacted with any of those accounts (I know
because like the author of the particle post we are commenting on, I too
received the email; unlike the original poster, I cannot remember which of
these ’blacklisted’ accounts I had interacted with).

------
doctorless
I find it intriguing that people are still surprised that there are attempts
to polarize and amplify both sides from foreign actors. Hell, it happens just
as intentionally from within our borders. I literally gave a talk on
automating it before the 2016 election. I even used the data to project the
winner of the election. People laughed. Then November rolled around.

~~~
Khaine
Do you have a link to your talk? It sounds interesting

~~~
doctorless
[https://youtu.be/iIIemMC4hrk](https://youtu.be/iIIemMC4hrk)

Admittedly, I was aiming for humor at some points, but that was to help offset
the gravity of the experiment.

~~~
dredmorbius
Is there a version of that with remotely audible audio?

------
jerkstate
I find it ironic that the moral of the story is "Fact-check everything" but
pretty much everyone in the USA has picked one side or the other of a massive
conspiracy theory solely supported by unnamed sources, circumstantial
evidence, and innuendo.

~~~
DennisAleynikov
c'est la vie

------
xupybd
So Russsia is partially behind the current left vs right / Black vs white
tension going on in the USA?

~~~
jonny_eh
They're certainly inflaming it.

~~~
nitwit005
Trying to inflame it. I haven't seen any evidence it was effective. It's not
as if there was a shortage of outrage on Facebook or Tumblr.

~~~
hnuser1234
Are you shitting me? It was a critical hit.

~~~
nitwit005
Surely you can point me to some sort of evidence of its effectiveness then?

~~~
hnuser1234
The exact outrage you mentioned noticing. The outrage didn't stop it, the
outrage IS it. Russia doesn't care if we know they're meddling, it works just
fine at generating instability anyways. It might even work better that way.
Look at us, here we are still talking Russia. It's going to continue to work
for as long as people let it so easily outrage them.

------
shiado
It would be interesting to see a social media platform emerge where instead of
a real name policy there was a metadata policy where each post contains the
IP/User-Agent/etc... for utmost transparency and validation by parties viewing
the site. It would be a DDOS/security nightmare but for a relevant example
check out congress-edits
[https://twitter.com/congressedits](https://twitter.com/congressedits)

~~~
nextlevelwizard
Problem with this kind of identity system is that bad actors will keep
anonymous and then conduct attacks on the people who dare to speak their
minds.

This kind of platform would remote bots/trolls to some extent, but it would
also put everyone who disagrees with the status quo at risk. Which in turn
would stifle free speech and people would either not dare to speak against
issues or keep that speech elsewhere.

------
JKCalhoun
> if you see a post about an issue that makes you angry...

Dial down your use of the internet.

------
kelukelugames
Define "hidden."

I hate to say this but 90% of what I know about NASA comes from that movie and
the one with Tom Hanks.

------
earenndil
> Yeah, I got one of Tumblr’s you-may-have-unwittingly-interacted-with-
> propaganda-blogs emails too

I don't have a tumblr account -- what emails is he talking about?

~~~
qubex
Yesterday Tumblur emailed this:

As part of our commitment to transparency, we want you to know that we
uncovered and terminated 84 accounts linked to Internet Research Agency or IRA
(a group closely tied to the the Russian government) posing as members of the
Tumblr community. The IRA engages in electronic disinformation and propaganda
campaigns around the world using phony social media accounts. When we
uncovered these accounts, we notified law enforcement, terminated the
accounts, and deleted their original posts. While investigating their activity
on Tumblr, we discovered that you either followed one of these accounts linked
to the IRA, or liked or reblogged one of their posts: 1-800-gloup bellaxiao
previously known as: blogmadworldlove bellygangstaboo cartnsncreal previously
known as: feelmydragonballs destinyrush previously known as:
delightfullyghostlysong fedupwithlying previously known as: badgyalforyou
gentlexnoise previously known as: slakerglitch, superblydopepatrol gogomrbrown
previously known as: go-mrbrown, infectedv0ice, todd-la-death
honestlyyoungpersona hustleinatrap previously known as: thenaturecanpost,
tumblercube jenningsmiracle lagonegirl massmedear previously known as:
massblog021 mooseblogtimes morningwoodz previously known as: 5cubes,
bangbangempire, empireofweird, gifemprireohh, innerpicsempire, picsempire
nevaehtyler previously known as: laserenita postingwhileblack previously known
as: ghettablasta, heygeraldmartinjohanssen, honestinjun, nativewolveshere
rebellloudwiththecrowd previously known as: massivelystrangetyrant
sassydreamlandcloud shoutoutworldwide previously known as:
blackprideworldwide, krispymentalitycowboy skullofjustice previously known as:
naughtykermit, ryanbutlersstuff, usnationaldebt sumchckn previously known as:
blondeinpolitics, blvckcommunity, classylgbthomie, hwuudoin, politixblondie
swagintherain previously known as: blacklivesmatterusa, carzwithgirlz the-
real-eye-to-see thetrippytrip previously known as: matrixpath, themostpost
thingstolovefor previously known as: the-inner-mirror this-truly-brutal-world
previously known as: awesomewhitepearl, free-mind-and-soul You aren’t in
trouble, and don’t need to take any action if you don’t want to. We deleted
the accounts but decided to leave up any reblog chains so that you can curate
your own Tumblr to reflect your own personal views and perspectives. Democracy
requires transparency and an informed electorate and we take our disclosure
responsibility very seriously. We’ll be aggressively watching for
disinformation campaigns in the future, take the appropriate action, and make
sure you know about it. — Tumblr

------
mesozoic
In the span of about 3 sentences this article goes from giving a perfect
example the dangers of social justice to then saying how important it is.

" The issue was perfectly tailored to resonate with Tumblr’s culture of social
justice, and it worked. The vast majority of reblogs of the original post do
not include any correction or further information.

Again, don’t get me wrong: anger is important. It’s a necessary part of social
justice. "

~~~
antoineMoPa
It does not highlight the dangers of social justice. It highlights the danger
of reblogging without fact-checking. You seem to equate "reblogging/sharing
without fact checking" with "social-justice".

------
lovich
Maybe the internet was a bad idea.

At this point it seems an almost impossible effort to vet the information from
anyone more than 1 connection from you, while putting fake information up is
almost effortless.

I don't know if anyone can trust anyone outside of their close family/friends
anymore, and even that's not garunteed

~~~
nextlevelwizard
How is this any different from TV, radio, newspapers or books? You have to
trust the author to speak truth and the median to not censor.

Unless you are the ones writing a news story you have no idea who made it or
what influenced it.

~~~
vikascoder
It's a little different as Internet makes it far easier to target a user
compared to classic means of propaganda especially excaberating the issue of
identifying real news vs "fake" news. With TV and Newspaper there are less
"anonymous" outlets for content and a system of oversight could be applied in
theory. A WhatsApp forward or an FB post spreads like a virus with no clear
source. It's trivial to spread lies and for a user to consume it.

------
katzgrau
I find this interesting. I'm curious though, who is the state sponsor?

~~~
apsec112
Russia. IRA = Internet Research Agency = Russian trolls.

~~~
FreeFull
I was confused because the first thing that came to mind was the Irish
Republican Army, but this makes a lot more sense.

~~~
StavrosK
I was similarly confused when I got an email from Tumblr about interacting
with Irish terrorist propaganda. I was puzzled because I wasn't aware that the
IRA was still a thing, and I didn't know there's another initialism like that
until this very moment.

~~~
jmspring
Long gone are the days where the IRA let people know a target and property
damage was done (towards the end of "the troubles"). But much history to
explore on both sides of that long time conflict.

------
tty7
Think before you speak, call before you dig.

------
bluepeter
ITT Russians w/ a plan.

------
maym86
Whataboutism? There are bad posts on both sides?

~~~
pknopf
Did he claim otherwise?

He clearly said that they attempt to inflame both sides to grow the conflict.

------
blhack
Maybe the Russian propaganda narrative is Russian propaganda.

If you wanted to destabilize the west, just _gently_ implying hat the sitting
US president is secretly maybe a Russia spy would be a pretty good way of
doing it.

~~~
jetpks
They really did a good job with the mountain of evidence, too.

------
funkythingss
I can't take anything seriously from a person, who says

> "Now, don’t get me wrong here: I am one hundred percent aware that history
> regularly erases the contributions of women, and especially women of colour"

~~~
iron0013
Why not?

------
Eridrus
I think it's a little shortaided to focus on the issue of fake news, or
misinformation in general. WikiLeaks, the DNC emails, etc show that Truth can
be just as powerful a weapon.

The only real defense against this is to come together as a nation, rather
than turning everything into a partisan squabble, but this seems unlikely in
the near future.

Everyone wants to blame tech or Russia for the situation, but this problem is
much larger.

~~~
RangerScience
> The only real defense against this is to come together as a nation

Isn't the other defense effective education, so people know how to spot
suspect things and do their own research?

(I imagine this has high correlation with "coming together as a nation")

~~~
Eridrus
> Isn't the other defense effective education, so people know how to spot
> suspect things and do their own research?

I think its distinctly different, since it is not about about discerning fact
from fiction. There is a lot of truth and opinion that is just as divisive as
lies. The lies are just the cherry on the cake.

