
China issues demolition order on world’s largest religious town in Tibet - nu2ycombinator
http://www.tchrd.org/china-issues-demolition-order-on-worlds-largest-religious-town-in-tibet/
======
kweks
I was there literally three days ago. The place is nothing short of
breathtaking. Nestled at 4200km, it was a three day motorbike ride from
Chengdu. Even at its foothills, you have no concept of the scale of the town
hiding in the hills.

This will truly be a tragic loss - the town is much more than the 'slum' it is
represented as - it's arguably the most important Buddhist learning
institution in the world..

Photos for the interested from my visit:
[http://travel.ninjito.com/dump/2016-06-15-Larung-
Gar/index.h...](http://travel.ninjito.com/dump/2016-06-15-Larung-
Gar/index.html)

Edit: Got a good internet connection, uploaded decent photos.

~~~
mac01021
Assuming most of those little structures are inhabited, how does this city
sustain itself? The land around it does not appear to be cultivated, and there
does not appear to be much of a commercial area. That's a lot of people to
feed.

~~~
jjcc
It's seldom known to westerners but many knowledgeable Chinese know that there
are financial aid programs for minorities. Similar to that of financial
support from Canadian government to the natives in northern Canada.

In other words, the money from tax payers of developed areas in China feeds
the people. The purpose of the programs is also quite similar to the Canadian
government, (at least in the beginning): the people in those area need
support.

Unbelievable? I choose some source which can not be some propaganda from
Chinese government to partially collaborate my claim (the source of income):
[http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB868829960463522500](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB868829960463522500)
(BTW, the subjective speculation by the author about the motivation of the
financial aid can satisfied the western readers but is far from the truth.
These false claims happen all the time in almost all western media. The lies
fuels anger and nationalism inside China which is not healthy in my personal
view. Nobody in western world are aware of that)

Another policy that is favorable to the minorities is the notorious "One Child
Policy": All the Han Chinese can have only one child while the minorities
include Tibetans are not restricted by the rule.

Those information were never told by western journalist and Free Tibet
Movement because they are opposite to the common belief that Chinese
government is oppressive regime. The sprite of "Truth, nothing but truth"
exist in science/technology/engineering. In politics and religion lies spread.

"Politics, like religion, is a topic where there's no threshold of expertise
for expressing an opinion. All you need is strong convictions." \--Paul Graham
[http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html)

~~~
fractallyte
Why should an entire nation of people be satisfied with 'minority' status?
There's a much simpler solution: 'self determination'. Furthermore, in this
instance, it has a compelling precedent: Tibet, which China _invaded_ in 1950.

~~~
rakoo
> Why should an entire nation of people be satisfied with 'minority' status?

Because they are not an independent nation, and actually are a minority in the
bigger nation they are part of ?

------
oi5zkc
I visited Yaqing/Yachen mentioned at the bottom of the article about a month
ago. The experience was surreal. In the middle of nowhere, 4 hours from the
nearest city, the monastery is a sprawling complex of huts around the bend in
a river in the tibetan tundra.

Here are some pictures: [http://imgur.com/a/v4gYI](http://imgur.com/a/v4gYI)

The hygienic conditions are very poor - people doing their business squatting
on the streets, no toilets, rubbish everywhere. I am surprised that was not an
argument being made by the government for the demolition.

There is some concern about foreign - especially American and British -
influence on Tibetan Buddhists in the government. I am not sure this move will
serve to diminish this influence.

Ps: on another note, a surprising number of these ascetic monks had an iPhone
6s+ or Samsung S7 in their pockets!

~~~
mfgrimm
I visited the region (eastern Sichuan, Tibetan plateau) in 2006, and played
counterstrike and diablo 2 against monks at the local internet cafe. Very
surreal, getting shot in the head by a monk.

~~~
girvo
Heh I used to play CS 1.6 with my Catholic priest. He was very very good too,
though his favourite game was Wolfenstein. Apparently shooting Nazis and their
monsters was cathartic

------
andy_ppp
I do not understand the cowardice and fear the Chinese government seem to have
of a small buddhist settlement in the middle of nowhere high up in the
mountains of Tibet... It looks like they feel the opposite of a superpower and
that a few buddhist monks might threaten them so much they have to destroy
them. It's very easy to forget how free we are by comparison to those
persecuted in occupied territories.

~~~
paavokoya
>It's very easy to forget how free we are by comparison to those persecuted in
occupied territories.

Pretty insulated thinking there.. Try traveling to Indian reservations or
gentrified urban areas.. Or perhaps research Japanese internment camps in WW2.
Or hell even look up Guantanamo Bay today. Superpowers flexing their muscle on
a "threatening few" is extremely common.

~~~
bmmayer1
Ah, the old 'Tu quoque' fallacy. Even so, let's examine some of these claims a
bit:

> Indian reservations

Yes, the state of the modern Indian reservation is tragic, but doesn't that
have to more to do with too much government assistance[1][2] rather than
government stepping in to destroy?

> gentrified urban areas

You're not trying to suggest that living in a neighborhood that's getting
nicer and more expensive is somehow akin to the government coming in and
demolishing the whole city block are you?

> Japanese internment camps in WW2

Well taken point, and a black mark on the history of the US government to be
sure. But there's much to be said about the state of exception in wartime[3]
and it seems unfair to compare measures taken during unprecedented war with
China's actions during unprecedented peace.

> Guantanamo Bay

Yeah, this is a shame. But hardly seems comparable, considering the Chinese
are literally putting thousands of families out of homes and seeking to
destroy an entire religious minority, and at best Guantanamo Bay is an
infringement on the civil liberties of a relative handful of individuals. Not
that it's right, but it certainly is at the top of a long slippery slope on
which China is currently racing to the bottom.

andy_ppp's comment is apt...we have problems, but we still are far more free
than almost anywhere else. And it isn't insulated thinking at all; Americans
are objectively freer than the Chinese by almost any metric.[4]

[1][http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/03/13/5-ways-
the-g...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/03/13/5-ways-the-
government-keeps-native-americans-in-poverty/#2f3107356cc6)
[2][https://mises.org/library/native-american-
reservations-%E2%8...](https://mises.org/library/native-american-
reservations-%E2%80%9Csocialist-archipelago%E2%80%9D)
[3][http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=23630](http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=23630)
[4][http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking](http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking)

~~~
roywiggins
Re: governments stepping in to destroy, how do you think American Indians
ended up where they are today? It was hardly voluntary. And on top of that,
the treaty rights they nominally have are often not enforced. Mineral rights
are held "in trust" by the government and are not managed for the Indians'
benefit.

------
huahaiy
Allow me to share some of my perspectives.

I grow up in Seda County in the late 70 and early 80s, and am intimately
familiar with culture there. Tibetan Buddhism is not what people in the west
think what it is. It is actually quite repressive and brutal. After 1950s,
many regular Tibetans were glad to worship the new religion of Chairman Mao
instead. Yes, it was true. Chairman Mao was worshiped as one of major Gods at
Tibet when I grow up there. Then Deng Xiaoping took power and demolished
Chairman Mao worshiping (one of his major blunders, on the same scale as that
of 89 Tienanmen massacre), now we got this huge slum town of "religious
learning" at a hot basin of Buddhist rebellions. Yes, going unchecked, that
town would surely become such a terrorists base, because Buddhist monks in
that area had always been very militant and had launched numerous rebellions
in 60 and 70s. As a child, I heard all kinds of horrific stories Tibetan monks
and their rebellious army inflicted on the Chinese soldiers and civilians
alike. For that reason, many Han Chinese families kept firearms at home in
that area, a rare thing in China.

On the other hand, Tibetan people in general are good people. One of my
cousins married a Tibetan man and we are good drinking buddies. However,
Tibetan religious upper class are representatives of a theocracy at worst:
greedy, deceptive and brutal.

I am surprised that this town was tolerated for so long. I guess Deng's power
was still strong even after his death.

~~~
spaced_out
>As a child, I heard all kinds of horrific stories Tibetan monks and their
rebellious army inflicted on the Chinese soldiers and civilians alike. For
that reason, many Han Chinese families kept firearms at home in that area, a
rare thing in China.

I'm guessing they didn't tell you about the horrific treatment many Tibetans
suffered in the years after the PRC invasion. During the Cultural Revolution,
the conservative estimates put the number of extra-judicial executions in
Tibet at around 22,000.

Plus, over 6,000 monasteries, the vast majority that have ever existed, were
ransacked during that time, which was only a few decades ago. It's rather one-
sided to call the Tibetan religious leaders "brutal", and not acknowledge that
they have been the recipients of far more brutality in the last few decades.

~~~
huahaiy
Of course we were told how those rebellions were subdued in the end, because
the evidence was in plain sight. There was a ruin on the mountain across the
river where we lived. I was told that it used to be a monastery. Some
rebellious monks held up there for a long time and the army wasn't able to
take it after suffered heavy losses, so they used heavy artillery to bombard
it to the ground. When we played in the hills, it's not uncommon to pick up
spent shells, etc.

As to cultural revolution, there's nothing special in Tibet. Fired up populace
did all the damages. At that time, Tibetan common people were equally zealous
about Chairman Mao, if not more so.

------
mhuffman
Wow! It is amazing that we do not consider this a human rights violation. Oh
well, gotta keep them prices low at Walmart!

~~~
lotu
What are you proposing we do? Cut off trade with China? Intervene militarily?
Write a strongly worded letter?

~~~
icebraining
What about Diplomacy? Increased recognition of Tibetan leaders and activists,
sending diplomatic missions to problematic spots, etc.

It would also not hurt to stop with the constant demonization of "China" as a
whole, which just serves to downplay criticism as bigotry.

~~~
GantzGraf
Obama just this week met with the Dalai Lama in direct contravention of
China's wishes.

~~~
dave2000
And Obama criticizes Israel sometimes by stating that the murder of thousands
of civilians or the expansion of illegal settlements are "unneccesary" or "not
helpful to peace" too, but it's just window dressing and not to be taken
seriously. Certainly it makes no difference to the outcome whatsoever, and
never will.

------
icebraining
Here are a bunch of photos from the place:
[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2349761/Little-
boxes...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2349761/Little-boxes-
hillside--home-40-000-Buddhist-monks-The-stunning-makeshift-town-sprung-
Tibetan-monastery.html#ixzz2YTJn15X1)

------
tomglynch
"In 2001, Chinese authorities implemented similar crackdown on Larung Gar by
destroying thousands of monastic dwellings and expulsion of monastic and lay
practitioners, some of whom died of shock or resorted to suicide, while some
were rendered mentally unsound."

------
eggy
This will bring the Free Tibet movement to the front again for the next POTUS.

I am sure China will put the 'safety' issue forward, and deflect the
independence movement. Remember the earthquake of May 12, 2008 in Sichuan
province, China, where over 68,000 people died, and more went missing. The
focus in the media was on the houses not being up to standard building codes.

The earthquake in Nepal in 2015 surely affected Tibet too, but information was
controlled by China, so the numbers are questionable. Larung Gar is a sprawl
of houses for monks, worshipers, students and visitors that could be seen as a
potential earthquake hazard area as spun by Chinese media.

------
nxzero
China's obsession with the destruction of Tibet and its culture is truly
troubling.

If China has its way, hundreds of years from now, Tibet will be gone, no
record of it will exist, etc.

~~~
lostlogin
Who remembers the Tibetians?

------
31reasons
Of all people the residents of the town will be the least unhappy about it.
Because they truly know everything is impermanent. Its their practice and will
see it as part of nature. Today I shall not buy anything Chinese. I wish there
was a supermarket that sold things not made in China.

------
abrbhat
Seems to be retaliation for this: [http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-
international/obamad...](http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-
international/obamadalai-lama-meet-will-hurt-mutual-trust-says-
beijing/article8738775.ece)

------
whistlerbrk
Remember when free trade was going to democratize and open China? What
happened? This is terrible

~~~
chii
THe free trade was never intended to do anything other than make a class of
connected people richer.

~~~
tremon
The GP is referring to how it was sold to the public, not what its real
intended effects were.

------
mac01021
I didn't notice in the article any mention of _why_ there is a population
limit set for this town.

Is it explicitly a measure taken to limit solidarity in a religious/ethnic
minority? Is there a concern about the food supply?

~~~
afandian
Why does any genocide happen?

~~~
mac01021
Normally the people instigating it give a reason. I'm asking what reason has
been given by the PRC in this case.

Also, it's not clear to me that this qualifies as _genocide_.

~~~
afandian
Genocide is the systematic eradication of an ethnic or religious group. You
can't look at China's actions over the last fifty odd years and come to any
other conclusion.

The reason given by the instigator (either for the top level or individual
actions) is of interest but probably doesn't have much truth to it.

------
ommunist
So what? This is a normal procedure. Authorities set ceiling of no more than
5000 dwellers there. That was ignored. Face the concequences.

For those curious - China is colonising Tibet, nothing wrong in industrial
nation wiping out the weakling. When the British colonised Americas they did
the same with more than 600 First Nations. They just did it earlier.

------
eisvogel
This is ass. It's time for a regime change.

------
sbose78
Any way of getting the UN involved?

~~~
xiaoma
The UN is useless anytime the interests of the US, China, Russia or other veto
wielding countries are involved.

~~~
abpavel
Or friends of any of those. Which in essence renders the whole UN useless.

~~~
bhouston
The UN isn't useless when dealing with countries that do not have many
friends, like Iran or Somalia, etc. But yeah, the UN is useless when it comes
to major powers and those protected by the major powers.

~~~
humanrebar
The UN is not stopping nuclear proliferation in friendless countries, which
really undermines the entire purpose of the UN.

------
reustle
Not saying this is right, but it sounds like the city exceeded their legal cap
of 5k people? So it doesn't sound like it's a total surprise to them. Am I
reading it wrong?

~~~
tremon
That's just rationalization. Had the city population been 4200, the cap would
have been set at 4k.

~~~
reustle
You're right, I guess it isn't clear when the cap was set. I assumed it was
defined more than a few years ago.

------
colordrops
And yet people are more concerned about ancient statues blown up by muslim
extremists. This seems like it shall be a greater tragedy by at least an order
of magnitude.

------
sova
What great sadness and folly. Oh may the future be free of such mindless
pursuit of conquest.

------
gscott
China has some seriously evil leaders.

~~~
ommunist
No mate, they are just practical people with pragmatic agendas.

~~~
gscott
If how to harvest more organs from prisoners is practical and pragmatic then
they are experts.

------
discardorama
Chinese are bullies. And bullies pee in their pants when faced with real
resistance. That's the best way to describe it.

~~~
dang
You can't post comments like this to HN. Thoughtful critique is fine, but
putting things provocatively and offensively on purpose is not fine, and doing
that to slur an entire people (whether or not their government did a bad
thing) is a bannable offense. Please don't do it again.

We detached this comment from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11929011](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11929011)
and marked it off-topic.

