
Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016) - hourislate
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/living-in-switzerland-ruined-me-for-america-and-its-lousy-work-culture-987981365
======
mvdwoord
I have worked a lot in international teams with many different cultures, but
predominantly US. Being born in NL and based in DE currently, it has always
amazed me what a low standard of living my american colleagues had compared to
us. The elections provided me some more insight into the debate surrounding
Bernie Sanders' plans and I just can't understand the seeming lack of
understanding of how nice it is to have true (imho) quality of life. Free
time, insurance, working roughly 35 hours a week, fresh air, exercise, good
food, etc . etc. I don't want to engage any political discussion, and I see
similar mindset with some europeans. It somehow just baffles the crap out of
me to see people want to, and be proud of, overworking / sitting in a car 2-3
hours a day / breathing polluted air / eating prefab sandwiches or other
junkfood. Meanwhile labelling any alternative as 'communism' Had a bit of that
for the first few years of my working life. Never again.

~~~
arjie
> It somehow just baffles the crap out of me to see people want to, and be
> proud of, overworking / sitting in a car 2-3 hours a day / breathing
> polluted air / eating prefab sandwiches or other junkfood. Meanwhile
> labelling any alternative as 'communism' Had a bit of that for the first few
> years of my working life. Never again

Wtf lol. America isn't necessarily like this. You just had a shit job.

~~~
tdb7893
I don't know. I've met tons of software engineers in the US that never work
less than 45 hours a week in spite of having only 3 or 4 weeks of vacation a
year. It seems kinda ridiculous to me

~~~
spost
Junior dev here, but 3-4 weeks of vacation would be an improvement over my
current 15 days...

~~~
VLM
People are reacting rather violently to 15 days is three weeks, although it
isn't. Its the standard two weeks plus 5 holidays, Memorial Day, 4th Jul,
Labor, Thanksgiving, Christmas. That's 15 days.

In my youth I worked for a place that advertised 15 days very proudly as
meaning two weeks salaried vacation plus a personal day (usually Friday after
thanksgiving). After all if you're salaries at a 24x7 operational company, if
you want a Saturday off with guaranteed no phone calls, you need to take
vacation.

~~~
d4adb33f
> After all if you're salaries at a 24x7 operational company, if you want a
> Saturday off with guaranteed no phone calls, you need to take vacation.

And people put up with this?

------
JumpCrisscross
I lived in Switzerland and now America. I take long, relaxing lunches - it's a
good time, midday, to reset. I also take ample "vacation" (in quotes because
I'm reachable within an hour or two by phone and email but still out having
fun). These parts, I keep, albeit with adaptation.

I remember Switzerland's "nothing changes so do your duty" attitude. That is
caustic when the powerful feel they can reputationally and thus permanently
destroy the less powerful. The churn and disruption of American culture is
healthier. And, for what it's worth, I prefer New York's mix of old and new
architecture to Zürich's centuries-old skyline.

My takeaway from growing up multiculturally is that while there are some
cultures that are better at most modern tasks than others, there are multiple
cultures differently enabled--each competently, in its own right--for the
modern world. These multiple optima perform certain facets, _e.g._ teamwork or
nonlinear social disruption, differently and differently ably. Humanity
benefits from this diversity of approaches.

~~~
rb2k_
Same here. Grew up and started working in Germany, moved to the US (First
Cambridge, now Menlo Park).

I feel the same.

To me it seems like this:

\- If you want to mainly enjoy things outside of work and just see it as a way
to finance those other things, the US might not be the best place.

\- If you enjoy the work you're doing and want to work with other motivated
people that are great at what they do: the US makes it a LOT easier.

Especially as an Engineer, the recognition and possibilities are vastly
higher. I haven't seen a company in Germany that does a successful dual ladder
system. I also haven't seen one that isn't riddled with MBA grads that mainly
push Jira tickets around. Even smaller companies seems to think that's a
necessity. I'm sure there are some examples that make it work, but it's
seemingly a lot harder to find them.

------
ensiferum
The "American Dream" is a has-been. I'm not old enough to have lived through
this myself, but what I've understood the US was probably the best country to
live in after the WWII. Some +30 years of industrial growth, start of
consumerism without climate change and ecological or economical worries (and
don't forget rock 'n roll!). The average joe could work a factory job and
afford a house and a family. Crime rates were relatively low, income
distribution was more even and generally every class of people were getting
more prosperous, except perhaps the blacks and latinos who still were being
discriminated against (and still are).

That being said since the -70's and -80's Nixon's and Reagan's administration
saw the collapse of the american dream, stagnating minimum salaries, the
explosion of crime, war on drugs (that has cost billions), unprecedented bias
in income distribution. The Soviet Union and communism was the new evil, US
liberated it's economy. Capitalism and freedom was the answer. What could
possibly go wrong when industries (such as banking) self regulate...

Now US has regressed to a country where the owning class is super rich,
meanwhile there's a 3rd world country juxtaposed onto itself. Enormous
poverty, crime, drug abuse, social problems, racial problems and a new
president whose road to power is paved with dreams like cutting back on the
minimum wage etc. stupidity.

On top of that you have a goverment that spies on its citizens.

Event in the poorest countries the elite are always doing well. You don't
judge a country based on how well the elite are doing but on how well the poor
are doing.

~~~
Synaesthesia
But there's something that can be done about it. The labor rights people do
have today in the USA were won by taking action, not given.

~~~
aorloff
Yes but labor rights is a poor substitute for a system that allows and
encourages small business. I'm not talking about "Entrepreneurs" in the new
sense of the term, I'm talking about the sense that the first 200 years of
America fostered, where basically after apprenticeship any tradesman started
their own firm and became their own boss.

Labor rights are a bad consolation prize for a system that should be
encouraging self determination.

------
disordinary
Lots of companies in the US treat their employees well, but plenty don't - and
there is very little in the way of employee protection in "at will" states.

In other western countries employees can't be fired without being given
multiple written warnings and given opportunities to improve their
performance. They get a higher minimum wage (with no distinction on what
industry they work in, so no need to rely on tips if you're in hospitality),
and they get at minimum 30 days holiday when you include public holidays.

On the other hand the wages in the US are higher than most western countries,
and the cost of living lower (interestingly the taxes aren't despite the
central government providing fewer services).

People don't realise the trade off that exists for the American dream and
there is a trade off for all but the luckiest few. I know I didn't when I
worked in the Bay Area for a bit.

It's a system that seems to prioritise business over employees and you can't
argue with the success of American companies, so depending on your mindset it
works.

The trade off is worth it for some, not for others.

------
Futurebot
72% of Americans support paid leave programs: [http://www.apnorc.org/news-
media/Pages/News+Media/Poll-shows...](http://www.apnorc.org/news-
media/Pages/News+Media/Poll-shows-strong-support-for-paid-family-leave-
programs.aspx)

58% support universal health care:
[http://www.gallup.com/poll/191504/majority-support-idea-
fed-...](http://www.gallup.com/poll/191504/majority-support-idea-fed-funded-
healthcare-system.aspx)

62% support debt-free college:
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-01/majority-...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-01/majority-
of-americans-want-college-to-be-free)

92% would prefer wealth distribution to look like Sweden:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/american...](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/americans-
want-to-live-in-a-much-more-equal-country-they-just-dont-realize-it/260639/)

What some believe Americans want or will accept is still odds with the
reality. The actual problem in this country is that our representatives do not
represent most Americans; they represent the interests of the wealthy. We live
in a plutocratic oligarchy with only the trappings of representative
democracy:

[http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/the-second-
gilde...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/the-second-gilded-age-
has-america-become-an-oligarchy-a-793896.html)

[http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/is-america-an-
oli...](http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/is-america-an-oligarchy)

------
jernfrost
This story is all too predictable and the ensuing debate is the same as
always. Americans will point to the small size of European country X, compared
to the US. The problem with that reasoning is that it is pretty much like this
all over Europe with just variations. Some places have lower salaries, some
have longer vacations or maternity leave. Still there are about 500 million
people living in systems offering better work-life balance than what 300
million Americans are experiencing.

The American reaction seems to be summed up as different variations of denial.
Either one accept that America is like that but one denies the possibility of
America changing. Or one simply denies that things really are that bad.

What a multitude of European countries are doing isn't magic, nor is it
humongously expensive. America is much richer than Europe as a whole, yet
Americans are completely convinced it is impossible for America to afford any
sort of work-life balance.

Or the retort is that, if this is so great then why don't everybody do it?
Well lots of European countries do for that reason. It isn't impossible in
America either, but Americans keep voting against their own interests. They
keep voting in favor of people who will hand their money over to the 1%. Since
the 70s America has grown its wealth tremendously but regular people's income
has changed rather little since all the wealth has gone to the 1%.

People are sold the myth that all this wealth is going to innovative founders
like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk or whatever. Not it isn't. Most money in the US is
not made from creating new products. It is made in finance. The US economy has
been financialized. People who push papers around are taking most of the money
not the innovators. The very same people who brought the American economy to
its knees in 2008 is taking most of the money.

You don't have to believe me, you can just research the finacialization of the
American economy yourself. You can read about the rising inequality and the 1%
yourself. You can read about how policies in the US tend to favor the will of
the rich minority rather than the average majority.

And these people can keep screwing over Americans because they keep making
Americans believe that their real problem is poor Mexican illegals stealing
all the benefits, jobs and money. They can laugh while the poor fight among
themselves for the crumbs, while they eat their fat steaks.

~~~
threatofrain
I'm not sure that poor Americans expressing interest in Latino mass
deportation policies really all that irrational.

If I were an employer of de-skilled labor, I'd also like mass immigration. I'd
want the immigrants to exert downward pressure on worker demands. I'd want to
make sure that worker strikes are meaningless, and that union demands don't
have teeth.

------
jstewartmobile
As a southerner, I am surrounded by "conservative" people who are collecting
several checks from the government, who paid _nowhere near_ what they are
taking back out, who endlessly bitch about Obama and Democrats, who rag on
some poor girl who works at WalMart 39 hours a week using a WIC card as an
example of communism.

I don't believe there is a system of government or economics that will
tolerate that level of self-delusion for long. Our fundamental problem is that
the postwar period was so provident for us that we have lost all touch with
reality.

~~~
Nomentatus
That post-war period was based on the expropriation of every single bit of
German patent IP as a spoil of WWII (Russia also did this, so the U.S. may
have been following suit - but Britain didn't.)

------
sparkling
Make no mistake. Switzerland is not comparable to say France, Germany or
Italy. The fabric and demographics of western european societies are changing
rapidly and wages in France, Germany, Italy are low compared to the US. And it
is only going to continue to go downwards from here. As a rule of thumb: yes,
the poorest 25% are better of in Europe, everyone else is probably better of
in the US.

Disclosure: grew up in Germany and over the past 20 years, i have lived in
NYC, Boston, Munich, Geneva, Bucharest.

~~~
dasil003
I grew up in the US and Brazil, and over the past 20 years have lived in
Minneapolis, Santa Fe, San Francisco, Brasilia and London.

I know where you're coming from, the US has by far the highest wage to cost of
living ratio, and it seems to have the cheapest consumer and luxury goods by
far. An aspirational materialistic lifestyle is far more accessible to the
middle class in America than anywhere else.

That said, does this equate to happiness? For instance when I lived in London,
I was paid less and my money didn't go as far, but I was able to live without
a car, enjoy tons of free museums and a lot more accessible culture in
general, and as a family man had a lot less stress about health care with the
NHS.

I realize that if you have no economic opportunity that easily trumps
lifestyle considerations, and Europe, especially southern Europe is facing
some major challenges, but I still think Europe has a lot of qualities that
the US could learn from.

~~~
jernfrost
Money in the US only seems to go far when you look at consumer products. And
of course housing is cheap as there is lots of cheap land. The problem for any
highly automated society is that while consumer goods fall in price, services
go the opposite direction.

This is were the big problem is in the US. Lawyers, doctors, dentists,
university, medical care, medication, child care etc all those things are
typically a lot more expensive in the US.

What does it matter if you can afford twice as many iPhones or flat screens in
the US, if you are economically ruined once you get a serious disease like
cancer or you can't afford to send your kids to a decent university?

I've contemplated the wealth difference between the US and my home country
Norway many times, and I've always found it very hard to compare because you
don't live the same way.

I could afford a bigger house and car in the US, given the price level of
those things there. Yet concluding that I am richer is hard. American houses
tend to be more cheaply built, with poorer insulation. So it is always an
apple and pear comparison. I can buy more stuff in the US, but my money would
not go as far when abroad. Stuff is more expensive in Norway, but salaries are
also higher so you have more purchase power when you travel. And Norwegian
spend more time enjoying vacations than Americans. So it depends on what you
want. Do you want stuff or leisure?

Also how do you put a price on the feeling of safety and and stress free
environment. You got an extensive welfare system that will be there for you if
anything should happen to you or your family. In the US you never know. You
don't have to worry about crime. I noticed an American policeman visiting
Scandinavia to learn about various Scandinavian policing methods. The first
odd statement I noticed him say was "people don't look over their shoulders
here. It looks like they don't worry anything bad is going to happen."

If this is the way people live in the US, I got to say, thanks but no thanks.

------
bwanab
There are many good points in the article. I worked in Switzerland for a
couple of years and there are also some inaccuracies to keep in mind.

1\. Yes, the average Swiss makes more than the average American, but the cost
of living there is also much higher. So much higher that on a purchasing power
parity computation, the average Swiss makes $58,600 compared to $56,000 for
the average American (source:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita)).
That's a long way from the stated $91,000.

4\. Wealth-based taxes. Yes, the Swiss Federal taxes are very low. That is
entirely offset by cantonal taxes. This isn't a good thing or a bad thing
depending on your perspective. The Swiss cantons are very independent compared
to U.S. states and provide most services locally. But, as a tax-payer, you'll
be paying an equivalent amount to both levels of government as you would in
the U.S. Only the ratio is going to be different.

While I can vouch for the amazing unemployment benefits, I will also point out
that for the many HN readers who are software developers, you would find that
your profession doesn't have nearly the status in Switzerland as it does in
the U.S. Anecdotally, when I lost my job, my unemployment benefits were great,
but the jobs I could find were pathetic compared to what I could find back in
the U.S. which is where I ended up despite my regret in missing many of the
benefits of Swiss life the article discusses.

------
a3n
From the comments: > Another article that shows that American exceptionalism
is a myth. We can be so much better and we have so much to learn from the rest
of the world.

America probably was exceptional at some time in the past. Now, among modern
western countries, we are merely an exception.

~~~
gerbilly
America was exceptional in that it had tons of 'free' land to grab.

That is of course no longer the case.

~~~
Nomentatus
That land also held most of the gold that the world hadn't already mined yet,
on that land. Quite seriously, this was an immense economic advantage almost
into modern times.

------
martin_bech
The description is similar in most of western Europe, while SF/NY wages sure
seem tempting, i could never give up all the benefits of Europe for it.. 5-6
weeks vacation beeing a minimum (5 is the law, 6 is the norm) and a 37 hour
work week. (Denmark)

~~~
flubert
How many paid holiday's are there in Denmark or Switzerland? Or what is the
total number of paid days off including vacation and holidays? I'd say the
average number of holidays for white collar workers in the U.S. is about 10
days.

~~~
martin_bech
Thats a good question. I just counted the days for 2017, its 8 and a half. May
1st is half a day off (not for everyone). So 5-6 weeks + 8 days. (Sidenote,
most jobs you have to use 3 weeks vacation during summer)

~~~
martin_bech
I almost forgot, if you work in the public sector, you also get 2 days of per
child under 7 years, for each parent. You can also negotiate to take part of
your maternity leave at a later date, some of our friends are now on a 3 month
vacation in Australia, using the maternity leave and savings for funding. (
this needs to be negotiated with employer, but its not unusual)

------
leroy_masochist
Switzerland is great, but should we be using it as an example for other
countries to follow? Most other countries can't expect a substantial portion
of their tax base to come from banks holding trillions of dollars of
dictators' assets, physical commodity trading, and multinational pharma
conglomerates (not to mention the impact on the local economy of the spending
of the very well-paid employees of said institutions).

I'm not trying to hate on Switzerland by saying this....my grandfather
emigrated from there, I have many cousins still there, it's an amazing place,
virtually everyone is super healthy and multilingual, they have forward-
thinking socially liberal laws, etc.....but let's call a spade a spade when it
comes to how they are able to afford everything.

~~~
s3nnyy
Banking is less than 5% of Switzerland's GDP
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_Switzerland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_Switzerland)).

The top 10 companies by revenue are all in pharmaceuticals or commodity
trading:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swiss_companies_by_rev...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swiss_companies_by_revenue).

Chocolate, cheese and mountains is just there to entertain tourists but even
if you would kill tourism and banking, Switzerland still would be superstrong
due to the megacorps (e.g., Glencore is located here and trades with 80% of
all coal in the world) who decided to pay taxes in Switzerland.

(You can read more about Switzerland in my blogpost "8 reasons why I moved to
Switzerland to work in tech": [https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-
why-i-moved-t...](https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-
to-switzerland-to-work-in-it-c7ac18af4f90#) \- I am well-connected tech-
recruiter in Zurich and if you're thinking of moving here and getting a coding
job, feel free to contact me - you find my email address in my HN profile.)

------
NSWorldwide
I had lunch recently with a VP of human resources who worked for one of the
largest tech employers here in Seattle (that is known for routinely working
people 50 to 60+ hours a week) why they didn't provide more vacation and
greater worklife balance. She replied that the young tech talent that they
recruit doesn't demand it they only look at the top line salary and don't
calculate the amount that they are earning per hour.

~~~
caminante

      She replied that the young tech talent that they recruit 
      doesn't demand it they only look at the top line salary and 
      don't calculate the amount that they are earning per hour.
    

The explanation doesn't make sense.

1\. At the "large tech employers," the young talent couldn't demand it as they
have limited power. There's plenty of substitutes at the margins. Both parties
know this.

2\. Employees surely calculate $/hour. It's cute to derive a minimum wage
salary when you spread wages across more hours, but earnings/career comparison
stops there.

~~~
aidenn0
At the "large tech employers" the young talent largely drives the compensation
structure. To be large you need to hire a lot of people. If you want to hire a
lot of people, then the easiest way is to attract new graduates (the only two
times there is a large pool of talented engineers is at graduation time and
when a large company shuts down).

Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Facebook (and probably others) are competing for
that same pool, and if they could increase their acceptance rate of offers by
10% by offering better work-life balance they would do it in a heartbeat.

In my experience, the two main things that 22 year old tech graduates are
looking for are money and future career potential. I doubt more than a few
percent of the young interviewees at those companies even ask about vacation
time. I have a fairly small data-set, but not one of several dozen right-out-
of-college interviewees have asked me about how many hours they would be
expected to work.

------
aub3bhat
Considering that Swiss politics (especially immigration) makes Donald Trump's
policies look downright liberal. I will pass. Switzerland is a tiny
(population smaller than NYC) paradise for those privileged to be born there
(err scratch that "hold citizenship" Swiss actually don't believe in
birthright citizenship) funded by tourism and tax-evasion. Sure they might
have a great "work culture" but I would rather take chance on American dream
and belief in hard work.

If you actually read the most up voted comment the last time this was
discussed, it says the same thing.

"""

"Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland
is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of
living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany)
with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. All these great
states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life
balance in America than alive in Switzerland. You could carve out multiple
Switzerlands of the US if you broke it up and tightened immigration (as the
Swiss are doing right now).

""" Source:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9988048](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9988048)

If you were to carve out Silicon Valley to LA into a new country and with
similar xenophobic immigration policies you will have a nation far far
superior than any other on earth. Such comparisons are meaningless.

~~~
Findeton
All the social benefits she describes are the norm all over the EU.

~~~
sageikosa
like Greece, Portugal, Italy and Spain?

~~~
sbuk
Yes.

------
s3nnyy
This discussion is flawed as it assumes Switzerland is like the rest of
Europe. The buying power here is at least two times the buying power of people
in UK, Germany or anywhere else in Europe. It did not take part in both world
wars and did many strategic things right in the last 200 years.

You can read more about Switzerland in my blogpost "8 reasons why I moved to
Switzerland to work in tech": [https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-
why-i-moved-t...](https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-
to-switzerland-to-work-in-it-c7ac18af4f90)

Full disclosure: I am well-connected tech-recruiter in Zurich and if you're
thinking of moving here and getting a coding job, feel free to contact me -
you find my email address in my HN profile.

~~~
thesimon
> This article is two years old but most of the things are valid still today.

Would you say the salary levels are still accurate? Just making a back-of-the-
envelope calculation using your numbers for food, immoscout24 for rent (used a
2.5 room in Oerlikon) and lohncomputer.ch
([http://imgur.com/iWXaJSC](http://imgur.com/iWXaJSC)) makes (junior) dev
salaries in Germany look ridiculous low.

~~~
s3nnyy
Yes, even after the Swiss unpegged the franc from the Euro
([http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-
explains/2015/01/ec...](http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-
explains/2015/01/economist-explains-13)), salaries are stable.

------
smnscu
Ah, I remember Chantal, I used to devour her blog [0] documenting her
transition to Swiss culture/etc. I used to be crazy about Zurich and wanted to
move there, but 2 years of Germany convinced me I will never get used to the
German culture. Still an utterly beautiful country, and I would probably still
move to Switzerland for a while if I didn't have children.

0: [http://www.onebigyodel.com/](http://www.onebigyodel.com/)

~~~
nedsma
Can you please elaborate in a few sentences that about the German culture?

~~~
thesimon
As a German I would say some of the negative aspects are:

    
    
      * Always afraid of innovation
        * Contactless credit cards are regarded as very dangerous
        * Even debit card payments are bad because they cost the seller money and the government might see where you bought stuff
        * McDonalds EasyOrder kiosks are mostly empty and people prefer to queue for ages to order "the normal way"
    
    
      * "Only my lifestyle is the right one and others are just wrong"-mindset
        * Restricting opening hours because you could just shop earlier or on a Saturday just like they do

~~~
paganel
I regard the bullet points you listed under "Always afraid of innovation" as
features, not bugs. If it matters am Romanian, but I never really fully
understood why people would willingly make public their most personal details,
which is what happens when you purchase everything by CC: someone, somewhere,
knows if you're a man or a woman, if you eat kosher food or not, if you're in
a stable relationship, if you're depressed, if you're an alcoholic, if you
have eating disorders etc etc.

~~~
thesimon
The funny thing is Germans _love_ loyalty programs tracking their exact
purchases but don't want their bank to know the purchase amount.

------
sctb
Previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816)

------
vijayr
How easy or hard is it to move to EU (vs the US), from an Asian country? And
which would be the top countries to move to, in EU?

~~~
d4adb33f
It's not very hard, if you have money or skills that are in demand. Top
countries depend on what you are looking for.

~~~
vijayr
okay, for programming skills? which would you recommend?

when you say money, do you mean investing? what if I don't want to invest or
start a company or employ local people?

~~~
d4adb33f
If you do not want to invest or start a company, then your only option is to
find a job. With solid programming skills, you should be able to find a
company to sponsor you.

I know nothing about you, so I really can't recommend anything.

------
alkonaut
> At my former American job, I received 10 days of paid vacation per year, and
> each of those days came with a sizable portion of guilt if actually used.

ELI5: are employees sometimes (often?) expected to work on their vacation? Or
take those days out as extra pay instead? Or is it just that it's never "a
good time" to take that holiday?

~~~
stephengillie
It usually works out in one of two ways:

\- You respond normally to emails and Slack, but don't show up to meetings or
other work in the office. This counts as a legitimate vacation.

\- You simply don't schedule the time off, and nobody says anything. Some
companies will pay this out in cash equivalent (giving you an extra week or 2
of pay), but usually it just "expires" at the end of the year.

~~~
alkonaut
Wow. And people ever look at a european salary and think "whoa that's not a
lot". Well...

I do 8-10 weeks off every year (the proper no-email kind) now that we have the
480 parent days. Together with the 6w holiday you can just slowly take those
parent days and make longer paid holidays.

I'm not sure how many more percent pay I'd want to accept 0 to 3 of weeks of
not-quite-off, and no parental leave. 50%? In any case, it puts my measly
european software salary in a different perspective.

------
LargeCompanies
Wasn't Venezuela socialized too?

Switzerland sounds awesome; make tons more money there and work fewer
hours...why isn't that the norm everywhere if it's so great and works out so
well?

Their population is 8 million vs 318 million here in the U.S......

~~~
jernfrost
Venezuela has nothing to do with what we do in Europe. I am kind of tired of
this kind of ignorance. Please educate yourself about the differences. And
Europe is a lot of different countries with different systems. Switzerland is
among the most capitalistic in Europe. Definitely not socialist as you
imagine.

You imagine anything that doesn't sound brutal and exploitative must be a
socialist dream?

------
NSWorldwide
At a recent lunch with a VP of human resources for the largest tech employer
here in Seattle I asked why their company was so parsimonious with providing
paid vacation and work life balance.

~~~
__derek__
And what did they say?

~~~
stefs
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13304280](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13304280)

------
pif
Much money goes around in Switzerland. Let's wait and see what happens now
that the bank secret is no more.

~~~
vidoc
Switzerland isn't just a Banking paradise, it's a widely spread misconception
that the economic miracle of this country is only related to its bank and tax
code. Very obvious by just looking at its balance of trade.

Besides, the Swiss secret has been kinda taken care of by the IRS a few years
ago.

One thing tho, is that while wages are extremely high there, the cost of
living is extreme too!

