
Uber starts self-driving car pickups in Pittsburgh - flinner
https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/14/1386711/
======
Animats
Well, they certainly didn't under-sensor the thing. The big model Velodyne
LIDAR, a small LIDAR looking upward, stereo cameras in all directions, and
probably some radars.

The big rotating Velodyne thing has got to go. But so far, nobody who claims
to have a suitable solid-state 3D LIDAR is actually shipping. Quanergy claimed
a solid-state LIDAR suitable for automotive use [1][2] and showed it at CES,
but never shipped. Their web site hasn't been updated since 2015. They were
aiming at a price point around $100.

Advanced Scientific Concepts has a suitable LIDAR that costs far too much.
Space-X uses an ASC unit on the Dragon capsule for docking. ASC announced they
were getting into automotive in 2012 but never shipped.[3]

Somebody is going to do this soon. The technology works. It's a cost problem.
Once the cost comes down, cars can have multiple LIDARs (at least fore and
aft) near the top of the windshield and rear window. This gets rid of all that
topside gear.

[1] [http://www.quanergy.com/products/](http://www.quanergy.com/products/) [2]
[http://on-demand.gputechconf.com/gtc/2016/presentation/s6726...](http://on-
demand.gputechconf.com/gtc/2016/presentation/s6726-louay-eldada-quanergy-
systems.pdf) [3]
[http://www.advancedscientificconcepts.com/applications/autom...](http://www.advancedscientificconcepts.com/applications/automotive.htm)

~~~
spade
Since self-driving cars are still a new experience for most people, all of
that visible topside gear might give riders a sense of security.

~~~
bhollan
I was thinking the exact same thing. It's not a beauty contest as long as Uber
is owning the prototype fleet. Plus, I think it will clue in other drivers to:
"Dude, that was one of those 'driverless ubers' right?"

~~~
rodgerd
> It's not a beauty contest

And plenty of taxis in my neck of the woods have rooftop advertising, anyway.

On the other hand, it makes it clear the car is an Uber. Illegal parking and
such will be a lot easier to ticket.

------
mdorazio
A few things of interest here.

1) They're basically duplicating the early Google cars with mostly the same
sensor suite bolted on top and integrated in the side panels. This is good
because it means that unlike Tesla, they're planning for fully autonomous.

2) Since the human driver is still responsible for switching lanes, it looks
like this is very early stage testing and data collection.

3) I think it's great that they're taking the approach of giving customers a
view of what the car is doing via the back seat tablet, and even encouraging
them to share. This is a great way to get people comfortable with the tech.

4) It still saddens me that everyone is keeping their autonomous data
proprietary. How much faster could development go if Google let anyone have
access to their million+ miles of driving sensor data instead of needing to
collect it all from scratch?

~~~
alphast0rm
It's interesting to consider Google's data from another perspective:

> “Uber logs as many miles in 24 minutes as Google’s autonomous cars have
> logged in their existence,” they wrote. “While none of these miles are fully
> autonomous today, we just point out the scale of experience that can
> accelerate the development of the AI, mapping and learning for autonomous
> cars.” [1]

[1] [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-12/google-
ca...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-12/google-car-project-
loses-leaders-and-advantage-as-rivals-gain)

~~~
melvinmt
> Uber logs as many miles in 24 minutes as Google’s autonomous cars have
> logged in their existence

Hmm… Let's try comparing 24 minutes of miles logged in Google Maps (and Waze)
with Uber's data and see where they stand then…

------
kakabanga
This is the only way i can see Uber can survive in the future.

Its business model was sacrificing someone's income in the middle to be
cheaper than ordinary taxis. But with self driving cars, they can minimize the
costs without hurting anyone.

Really really smart and huge move at the same time. Whoever pushed this idea
in the company deserves a huge credit.

~~~
bwilliams18
But doesn't this business model entirely eliminate someone's income to be
cheaper?

Is a total elimination better or worse than a reduction? I don't have an
answer, and I see good arguments for each side...

~~~
kakabanga
Exactly. And that is something we human beings adapt to without noticing it.
Telephone operators, newspaper boys, lumberjacks, meter readers have all
disapeared. There were thousands of people who earned their life with it but
eventually switched to new careers.

This will happen sooner or later and for sure there will be companies and
individuals that will be affected by the change, but that is not enough reason
to stop the development. And this is not Uber specific topic either. If not
Uber, some other company will one day work on this.

~~~
pmyjavec
Do you really think it's fair to say that people who lose their jobs their
jobs won't notice?

I hope Uber pay their taxes.

------
rwhitman
Using Pittsburgh as a proving ground is a smart move - not just because that
happens to be where CMU is located but if you can train a self-driving car to
navigate Pittsburgh, you've pretty much trained it to navigate anywhere.

In Pittsburgh you have a haphazard street grid with unconventional and often
poorly maintained road conditions, hills with poor visibility, narrow streets,
weird unpredictable driver behavior like making left turns in front of
oncoming traffic as a light turns green (my friends call this the "pittsburgh
left"), every sort of weather condition imaginable including heavy rain snow
and ice, etc etc. A self driving car that can navigate Pittsburgh without ever
needing driver input is truly autonomous

~~~
what_ever
I think it had more to with the first reason than the second -

[http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/magazine/uber-would-
like-t...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/magazine/uber-would-like-to-buy-
your-robotics-department.html)

[https://www.fastcompany.com/3046902/fast-feed/carnegie-
mello...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3046902/fast-feed/carnegie-mellon-in-a-
crisis-after-uber-poached-40-of-its-researchers)

------
ctz
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmofgf-Y3Mc&t=45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmofgf-Y3Mc&t=45)

This is a promotional video produced by Uber. It clearly shows the vehicle
illegally entering a crosswalk containing pedestrians. That's not a great
start, and not particularly good advertising.

~~~
gthtjtkt
I could be wrong, but I don't think that's illegal as long as there's a safe
distance between them.

Otherwise, it would be practically impossible to make turns in a city...

~~~
secabeen
Nope, it's a violation. In a crosswalk, the pedestrians have the right-of-way,
and motorists must wait until they have walked through the area the car wants
to turn through to go. Yes, this means that in cities, you often can't turn
right until right at the end of the signal, when you can pass behind the
pedestrians completing their crossing, but there isn't enough time for any
pedestrians to start crossing and claim a right-of-way.

I was always taught that from the moment the pedestrian steps off the curb,
you cannot turn in front of them. They have the right-of-way.

~~~
engx
This is just impossible in some cities, especially when pedestrians are
crossing a 5 lane road.

In LA, if you did this you'd cause significant traffic issues.

------
Diederich
I saw a car in San Francisco on Monday that had an Uber label on it. It was an
SUV looking thing with sensors and devices all over the outside of it. As
others have said, it looked like the early Google self driving cars.

~~~
tomschlick
While that may not be using autonomous cars outside of Pittsburgh yet I
wouldn't be surprised if they are driving some cars around other cities to
digitally map them in preparation.

~~~
Diederich
Definitely. It seemed like the driver was holding the wheel at the moment I
was looking, but that doesn't mean too much.

Interesting times, no doubt!

------
therobot24
Since Uber is in very early stages of autonomy i'm assuming this is to prop up
their IPO

~~~
jonknee
You typically don't go with an expensive ambitious money losing project to
prop up an IPO.

~~~
mastax
Worked for Musk! All you need is hype.

------
koolba
It'd be cool if they have more than one "AI driving personality" and users can
rate them.

~~~
whamlastxmas
Or celebrity personalities. I want Jennifer Lawrence to drive me around and
tell me how much she likes eating junk food.

~~~
semi-extrinsic
Or if you're going to a _really_ important meeting, you can get Jason Statham.

~~~
MichaelGG
It's a bit surprising we don't have that. People customize ringtones, you'd
think they want to pay to customize Siri voices and so on. Maybe the companies
in the position to do this (Google/Apple) don't view it as good enough revenue
compared to potential harm to brand (looking trashy?).

~~~
cpeterso
Some in-car navigation systems sell celebrity voice options for their driving
directions. My friend had John Cleese.

------
jastanton
I do think it's cool that they are letting anybody ride in these. It will help
make the transition easier for rolling out this feature if people have already
ridden in the cars.

~~~
narrowrail
From what I've read, it is actually invite-only, loyal Uber customers for now.
When Uber makes the transition in 30 years to fully autonomous vehicles, I
think people will be feeling swindled that they've had to hear about it for so
long while still having a driver the whole time.

~~~
jessaustin
If it takes that long, there's no way Uber will still be around. They're
planning on much sooner.

------
murukesh_s
Wonder how much of it will succeed in developing nations, where many roads are
not well laid out and most importantly not well mannered.. On the flip side,
the jobs of drivers are protected until the AI tech improves to cover complex
scenarios or the infrastructure improves drastically, both of which can take
decades IMO.

~~~
ryuker16
Labor is so cheap in developing nations that automated anything is rare. It
was not uncommon for venues to over staff by 50%-200% even on slow nights
becuase labor is so cheap.

Ever been to a club where security outnumbers customers 5 to 1 or waiters
huddle in a corner on a slow night in big groups of 10?

The complex senarios and infrastructure won't take decades. Google's driving
car has performed insanely well so far for millions of miles safely.

~~~
semi-extrinsic
In Brazil I took some buses out in the countryside where they had an
additional employee to collect the fare from passengers entering, sitting just
behind the driver who did nothing while the bus was stopped.

~~~
et-al
Sometimes it's just about keeping people employed, which gives a person a
sense of purpose, and may prevent them from protesting.

~~~
ryuker16
It's moreso becuase it's 50 cents to $1 an hour or a flat rate fee. Usually
the extras also do stuff like security or function as backups labor.

Bartender cancels last minutes? At least one of these 10 muscle head security
guys likely knows how to mix drinks.

------
douche
I saw a report on the news this morning that Uber was going to be rolling out
similar service in Boston "within the next 3-4 months".

I hope the Farmer's Almanac is wrong, or else we will get an interesting test
of how self-driving cars perform in severe ice and snow conditions.

~~~
akgerber
Pittsburgh's weather isn't exactly mild. And its roadways are profoundly
complex, both due to very steep topography and due to being a city trying to
keep up extensive infrastructure after losing half its population.

Examples: [https://goo.gl/maps/gkJNuHFntgv](https://goo.gl/maps/gkJNuHFntgv)
[https://goo.gl/maps/F5eTFCnDgV92](https://goo.gl/maps/F5eTFCnDgV92)

------
Fricken
I can't find good info on their ridiculous sensor suite.

I read in the spring their lone early prototype had 22 'coffee cup sized'
cameras on the vehicle. By my count there are six 8 or 16 channel Lidar pucks
positioned around the car not counting the big 64 channel spinning velodyne on
top. There are at least 2 radar units, and likely also ultrasonic proximity
sensors. Who knows what else, or what kind of compute they're packing in the
trunk to manage all that data.

Sensor overkill!

~~~
chillingeffect
looking at the pictures of the cars, I'm starting to realize (fear) these
images will be used for data collection as well! The cars are roving
360-degree cameras!

Not that I'm paranoid personally, but these will give the owners a lot of
information about peoples' movement patterns, a competitive advantage, an
asset. For example, they could tell how many people wait at bus stops and sell
that info to municipalities... They could look for trends in fashion on the
sidewalks and sell it to clothing companies...

Even if they don't achieve autonomy, just putting cameras any vehicle and re-
selling the footage data-miners could be profitable.

~~~
seanp2k2
I'm not looking forward to more business models built on the "let's collect
data and sell it to people who hope to profit, probably through advertising"
thing.

------
dougmany
Putting together this story and the story about the self-driving car engineer
nano degree from Udacity, I am envisioning a future where every self driving
car has an accompanying engineer. Much as Steam engines needed an engineer to
operate, self driving cars will need Engineers to be monitored.

~~~
joesmo
Pretty much defeats the whole purpose for developing the self driving car, no?
Why not just have the guy drive then, if you still have to pay him? And now
that he needs a degree, he'll probably cost more than a driver. Not to
mention, there's likely nothing for him to do once cars are autonomous.

------
KKKKkkkk1
I don't understand. Switching lanes is something that even AutoPilot can do.
Is Uber deploying a lane-keeping system and calling it an autonomous vehicle?

~~~
nojvek
That's step 1. Once people get confortable then you move onto the next step.

Even lane following is not an easy problem.

------
205guy
2 issues I have not seen addressed by this article or others:

1/ interference. Having one lidar-beaming car going down the road works. What
happens when there are many? I suppose it just means more illumination, but
could there be an interference or "blinding" situation? What about
pedestrian/pet eye safety? I sincerely hope that all are being considered now
that this self-driving race is on.

2/ if Uber skirts around taxi regulations by being "just" an app that connects
independent drivers with riders, how do they justify researching, producing,
and deploying these cars with uber employees aboard?

~~~
dcposch
1\. is a solved problem, at least at Project Chauffeur (Google's autonomous
driving effort).

I live in Mountain View and see self driving cars every day, often driving
next to or past each other.

2\. Long term, it's not clear to me that taxi laws would apply to cars that
drive themselves. Short term, re this pilot project w Uber employees in the
driver seat: taxi laws are local. Maybe they got permission from the city.

------
euroclydon
Why can't Uber purchase a fleet of vehicles and let humans drive them? They
can still have some auto-pilot functionality.

Let's say at time T=0, a few million Uber cars are parked or on the road.
Users enter their travel plans into the app, and also indicate whether they
are will to make an extra stop or more, whether they can drive a leg, or
whether they desire a solo/express route. Then they either walk out to the
parking lot and start driving, or wait to be picked up. So now, everyone in
the Uber cars exists on this spectrum:

Express Passenger -> Driver for my leg -> Driver plus a little extra -> Driver
plus a lot extra -> Full time Uber driver.

Let the market and scheduling algorithms work out getting people and cars to
the right places are the right time. Now I don't need to own a car and we
don't need to have highly functional self-driving vehicles.

~~~
LrnByTeach
You got pretty good point, wait a year from today, couple of those 5 Driver
profiles you mentioned above will be available from Uber . I will take this to
next step, By JUNE 2018 when you have 200 miles(battery) Electric cars are on
roads (from Nissan, Tesla), Uber offer above all the 5 Driver profiles . At
the end of the day Cars will be parked in your drive way ( if you signup ) and
you take care of charging overnight( after 11 PM to get electricity at 1/4
cost) in return Uber will give you UBER Milage credits which you can use
whenever you /family rides.

These Uber milage credits are especially attractive to many casual drivers (
non Full time) and also good for UBER as they give only Credits(keeping 100%
of fare cash) and it also put pressure on FULL time Drivers cut which is 80%
today as more CASUAL driver pool is available in this new scheme .

Parking cars on People garage is economical compared on centralized location
As it takes extra time to get cars back to neighborhoods where people need
morning rides and also Uber saves on Real estate cost . UBER may have some
centralized locations for Cars maintenance/repairs etc..

When 100% self-driving is ready by 2020/2021 ( both from Govt. regulation and
technology side), All you have is Electric Self-driving Software Powered Cars
(ESS Cars) parked all over in your neighborhood people Parking LOTS ( People
get Mileage Credit for allowing their parking LOTS) and unlock and drive TO
YOU from your mobile Phone .

[Ford says 100% self-driving in 5
years]([http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/16/technology/ford-self-
driving...](http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/16/technology/ford-self-driving-cars-
five-years/))

~~~
LrnByTeach
Here is some rough figures of Ride Price

some very rough figures: [https://www.quora.com/How-much-will-a-ride-cost-in-
a-Google-...](https://www.quora.com/How-much-will-a-ride-cost-in-a-Google-
self-driving-car)

\- Personal vehicles cost roughly 60¢/mile to own if you have a car payment,
according to AAA -- or 2¢/minute, obviously keeping in mind that you pay for
every minute you own the car, regardless of whether you use it.

\- Taxis in NYC and Chicago run about $2.00/mi, or 50¢/min if you're going
nowhere in traffic. \- Uber depends on the city, but let's say $1.00/mi, or
20¢/min. Both Uber and traditional taxis have other fees they tack on, as a
reminder.

So, the cost will be competitive initially: likely no higher than $1.00/mi or
30¢/min

with it getting as cheap as someone wants it to be for the sake of driving
adoption. When you hit critical mass with an autonomous fleet, you could
likely see fees below 20¢/minute (minute will likely be the dominant metric)
to run a profitable model as we know it today.

With Mass adoption of Electric Autonomous vehicles, if it is offered at 40
cents/mile that that is cheaper than OWNING your own Car

\---------------- 1/ Uber drivers in the U.S. collected an average $13.36 per
trip, while Lyft drivers took $12.53 for each ride, according to a new report.
[http://time.com/money/3959091/uber-lyft-price-per-
trip/](http://time.com/money/3959091/uber-lyft-price-per-trip/)

2/ Uber gets 20% cut of that ride price that is $3

3/ It seems average ride time is 15 minutes

------
steveklabnik
I was expecting to hear at least something about
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_left](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_left)
, which is something that I'd find very interesting about autonomous cars.

~~~
rhodin
There's a mention of it in the WSJ article today [1], apparently they allow
other cars to do the left, but not their own.

[1] [http://www.wsj.com/articles/inside-ubers-new-self-driving-
ca...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/inside-ubers-new-self-driving-cars-in-
pittsburgh-1473847202)

~~~
steveklabnik
Nice, thanks for the link. That seems like a sensible start.

------
thevdude
I live just a bit outside of pittsburgh, but I'm not in town often enough to
need an uber. I'm still probably going to head down and try to get picked up
by one, though.

------
dominotw
What It's Like To Ride In A (Nearly) Self-Driving Uber

[http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/09/14/493...](http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/09/14/493823483/self-
driving-cars-take-to-the-streets-of-pittsburgh-courtesy-of-uber)

------
sturmeh
If this requires human intervention in case of malfunction that means it needs
a sober passenger in control at all times.

I feel like a large amount of users use Uber to avoid driving when they've
consumed Alcohol and should not be driving.

I wonder if this is just an interim stage.

------
basicplus2
Is there anything to stop someone stealing a phone then stealing one of these
cars?

~~~
jedberg
1) Morality

2) GPS -- they know where the car is it all times

3) There is still a human in it. Once the human is removed, I suspect the car
will only work if it has a continuous connection to HQ, and that will give it
a constant GPS signal.

------
kcherukuri23
I'm wondering what the potential will be for increased crime/theft of the
automated cars. I'm sure there will be a security fallthrough to track cars
that have somehow been overridden off of autopilot.

------
fspacef
As a college student in Pittsburgh I'd love to try this, anyone know a sure
shot way to call one of the self driving ones vs. a standard uber?

~~~
rhololkeolke
I know someone who worked at the ATC over the summer, so I asked him. He said
there is no sure fire way to get a self driving one. You basically have to get
lucky with the time of day and your start and end points being within the zone
they are testing. I'm pretty sure the zone is the downtown area and areas near
it. But I don't have exact details.

~~~
ChrisBland
From what I heard on NPR this morning, they selected a few thousand users to
be in the pilot program and only those users are able to get the self driving.
Im guessing they looked at their past route data and user rating to find users
to include.

------
knodi
Depending on how this turns out Uber could be worth more than any of the car
companies currently.

------
blondiedondie
Well, this is amazing. Didn't think we'd see self-driving pickups any time
soon. Guess when it finally does go completely automatic.

I do wonder, however, if a crash ends up happening, how will the blame-game
go?

------
neom
What happens to the uber drivers over time?

~~~
vibrato
The removal of driving jobs from the economy could be the catalyst for
adopting basic income.

~~~
asnyder
Either it's the catalyst for basic income, or the catalyst for the demise of
capitalism and the beginning of the erosion of the fundamental premise of
skilled human time being a valuable and scare commodity eventually leading to
many very negative scenarios and suffering around the world.

Let's hope it's for basic income...

------
brainfog
> guy

> he

> he'll

> him

~~~
sctb
We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12498644](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12498644)
and marked it off-topic.

------
jellicle
> self-driving car

> two drivers in every car

I want to buy dictionaries for every reporter who writes about these issues.

