

Ask HN: What is the best Keyboard nowadays? - Kevindish

Hey hackers<p>I am standing for buying a new keyboard, but finding it difficult to find a really good one.<p>One thing I find is that many keyboards has numbers on them, which i never use, and i just makes the keyboard look more chunky.<p>I really like the Logitech Dinovo Edge - slim, good keys and looks good
But it is some years old and use Bluetooth, the unify Ghz from logitech is a more seamless technoglogy.<p>I also liked the Logitech Media Desktop, slim, good keys again, but that is also years old, and do not work together with the new software that i use with the logitech MX Revolution mouse.<p>What keyboard do you use for your hacking? Help me hackers, I am curios to know! :)<p>-Kevin
======
Piskvorrr
Best _for what_?

For programming and writing, I'm extremely happy with my Microsoft Natural
Ergonomic Keyboard 4000. No interference, pairing or batteries to worry about
- just plug into the USB port (1.8 metre cable) and off you go. The key travel
and resistance is _just_ right, so that my fingers don't tire after a whole
day of work, and the ergonomic design helps against wrist pain (I've had that
with straight keyboards). It does have numbers, though: both in the top row
and on the numeric keypad (not sure what your issue with numbers is, they're
quite essential in all the typing I do).

It also has some cute additions like the zoom lever, browser and multimedia
keys, but that's just icing on the cake :)

~~~
rpwilcox
Another vote for the MS Natural Ergo 4000. I've bought 3 total, on two
continents. My wrists also feel better than with a flat keyboard.

------
jbarham
I bought the standalone Thinkpad keyboard [1] and love it. It's compact as it
doesn't have a separate number pad, and feels just like the legendary Thinkpad
keyboards. At $59 it's not cheap, but IMO is worth it.

FWIW it also includes a TrackPoint, but I never use it as I prefer a mouse.

1\.
[http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPo...](http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:item.detail?GroupID=460&Code=55Y9003&category-
id=3FB2CEB78A0F49D18148731559AF4603&hide_menu_area=yes)

~~~
pasbesoin
IIRC, there have been two versions of this keyboard. The first included a
trackpad. The current does not. Some user comments that I read also seemed to
indicate a bit of difference in the flexing of the overall board, between the
two models, but I no longer recall those.

The first version was also significantly more expensive.

If I can ask you, how large is the palm rest in front of the keys, on your
model?

I was tempted by this model, but I have trouble when the front edge of a
keyboard extends so far in front of the keys that it presses against my
wrists, particularly when I'm typing on a surface whose height I can't
control, e.g. a standard table where my forearms end up pointing somewhat
upward instead of being level. (A design that, unfortunately for me, is quite
prevalent in laptops, these days.)

~~~
jbarham
> how large is the palm rest in front of the keys, on your model?

I'd guess it's about the same size as the palm rest on my T410 Thinkpad
laptop. Certainly it's bigger than the non-existent palm rest on most
keyboards, but I've never found it an issue.

~~~
pasbesoin
Thanks. I've poked at a 420 in the store, and it seemed while the palm rest
was about at the limit of what I could tolerate, in size, that it might work
for me.

Tell Lenovo they owe you a commission. ;-)

------
drucken
After having tried many keyboards in the past, now I only go for those that
have the following features in order of priority:

1\. mandatory: no built-in numpad, i.e. tenkeyless. This reduces the right
hand mouse sweep and reduces strain on teres major, rotator cuff and right
wrist.

2\. mandatory: adjustable forward-back tilt, must be able to flatten to
horizontal. Reduces wrist strain strain and makes it more comfortable to tuck
elbows backwards and into your sides - the optimal position.

3\. mandatory: wired and USB connectivity. Wireless/Bluetooth optional. Not a
fan of worrying about input lag or driver support across varied hardware or
OS.

4\. optional: mechanical keys - tactical not clicky and equal to or lower than
45g actuation, i.e. Cherry MX Brown not the fancy clicky Blue (also has
"bonus" of annoying coworkers), heavy Red, very heavy Black or quiet and heavy
Clear. Topre switches are ok but hard to find and expensive. If normal rubber
dome keys, then it better be a very good keyboard otherwise!

5\. optional: full split with 40cm+ separation capability. I would rather have
a Happy Hacking or normal tenkeyless keyboard than a full split keybard with
less than 40cm+ separation.

Given all of the above, I use a _Kinesis Freestyle Solo_ with Kinesis Low-
Force Numeric Keypad.

Also, oddly enough some of the best keyboards are "gaming" keyboards due to
how robust and well-spaced the keys are. But good luck finding one that is
tenkeyless.

------
rmcrob
I like a Steinway Baby Grand. It's expensive, but it doesn't have numbers.

------
sp332
Here's an excellent (and funny) overview from Ars Technica of different kinds
of switches in keyboards. [http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/02/ask-
ars-ergonomi...](http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/02/ask-ars-
ergonomic-keyboards-101.ars)

The "Happy Hacking" keyboard looks very nice, and has no numeric keypad. But
it's ridiculously expensive. edit: apparently RMS
[http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?13526-Richard-
Stallman-%2...](http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?13526-Richard-
Stallman-%28proud-HHKB-user%29-Sez-It-s-OK-to-Block-Visa-for-Wikileak-Protest)
and Bjarne Stroustrup [http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?18556-HHKB-spotted-
on-des...](http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?18556-HHKB-spotted-on-desk-of-
another-famous-programmer) use them :)

To actually answer your question, the wireless Apple keyboards have nice
scissor switches and are surprisingly decent to program on. And no numbers on
the side!

~~~
cpcloud
I'm a huge fan of the Happy Hacking keyboard. Everything feels so close on it,
and I always find myself wishing I had one when I have to type on other
keyboards for a very long time.

------
jejones3141
I will join philh and sepeth in saying I really like the TypeMatrix 2030. Even
if you don't make the switch to Dvorak, which the TypeMatrix makes trivial--
like the old "DVORTYboards" the switch is done at the keyboard, no messing
with translation on the computer side--the non-offset rows of keys will give
your hands a break. It does have CTRL where IBM keyboards put it rather than
where God/DEC intended (next to the left pinky), but most of us have had to
get used to that, alas.

They offer keyboard skins designed to fit the keyboard: either translucent
(with no labels, to work with all variants), translucent with labels, or black
with labels. An anecdote: the translucent skin I first got with the keyboard
had worn through in spots, so I ordered two of the black Dvorak skins. They
arrived, and happily fit far more snugly over the keyboard than the first had
--but after a few minutes use, though, something was clearly wrong. Turned out
I'd pressed the num shift key, but the skin covered the LED that would have
shown the problem. A call to TypeMatrix turned up that it was a communications
issue with the company that did the skins--they recommended a leather punch of
appropriate diameter as a temporary fix, and said that once they have
corrected skins, I should contact them with explanation and email address, and
they'd send replacements back at no cost, no questions asked. IMHO, that's
service. (Now if they'd just get it out of their head that blue for labels for
Fn functions is some kind of standard and make them orange on the black skins,
it would be perfect--though they are aware of that issue as well.)

UPDATE: Once I am again among the employed, I will ask my employer whether I
can bring in my own keyboard (just as I'll ask about being able to bring in my
spare Logitech trackball to use instead of a mouse), and if I can, buy a
second TypeMatrix for the purpose.

~~~
jejones3141
Duh. Make that "explanation and address".

------
bdunbar
I'll second the motion for Unicomp, Ultra Classic.

It's an IBM Model M keyboard, with updates.

It's clicky. I like this, personally. My hands love they keyboard, the
feedback from the 'clicky'.

You mentioned 'looks' twice. This confuses me.

When I use a keyboard, I don't spend a lot of time looking at it. It's an
input device. A tool.

What matters is how well it works, not that it looks sleek and ready to spring
into the air. Get one your hands like, not your eyes.

------
woodrow
Filco Majestouch Ninja Tenkeyless [1]

It's a mouthful, but the important points are 1) mechanical switches (mine has
Cherry brown switches), 2) heavy -- it feels solid and stays put on your desk,
and 3) no numpad. I guess there's also 4) it looks cool. It's the best
keyboard I've ever used.

[1] <http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/det.php?prod_c=775>

------
aerique
I was on a 3 month gig recently coding for iOS and I liked the keyboard that
came with the iMac so much that I've bought another one for my main Linux
development machine.

It does have a numeric keypad but there's also a wireless version available
without:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Keyboard#Apple_Keyboard_....](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Keyboard#Apple_Keyboard_.28109_keys.29)
(I've got the A1243)

It does have some issues with key placement but that was easily solved with
xmodmap.

------
asselinpaul
I've heard really good things about Topre keyboards but can't afford one
myself since I am a student. Google around to learn more but good models are:

-Topre Realforce 87U (around $260)

-Happy Hacking keyboards (around $300)

I told you they were expensive. Otherwise older IBM keyboards tend to have a
good reputation (model M).

To find some great keyboards, you can have a look here :
<http://www.elitekeyboards.com/> (no I don't work for them).

~~~
angdis
Elitekeyboards also offers models from Leopold.

([http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=leopold,tenkeyles...](http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=leopold,tenkeyless))

These are a lot less expensive than happy hacking and also have a reduced size
form-factor (no numpad).

I got the model with cherry-mx blue switches (very clicky and tactile like the
old 80's IBM keyboards). I got the "otaku" model without the key markings and
it looks very cool.

------
mattbriggs
I find the feedback of a mechanical keyboard makes typing more enjoyable in a
general way. At home I have a razor black widow which has cherry blue switches
(which are my favorite), at work I have a dasKeyboard with cherry brown
switches (much quieter so I don't irritate my team).

For me, nothing matches the visceral feel of mechanical keyboards. I have a
friend who described it as feeling like he was typing with a machine gun

~~~
bdunbar
I've used a machine gun. Keyboards are a lot quieter, and have way less
recoil. But your friend has a point.

Have you ever used a late-model IBM Selectric typewriter? Now that is the acme
of keyboarding. IBM knew their users would spend hours at the keyboard,
designed with that assumption in mind.

An IBM model M (now made by Unicomp) is the Selectric of keyboards.

~~~
jgeorge
The old (late 70s/early 80s) IBM 5211 Terminal used to include a large
solenoid in the keyboard that fired a metal rod into the metal base of the
keyboard as a mechanical "clicker". Holding down the spacebar was very akin to
the sound of a machine gun!

------
mcartyem
Here's my question: why are there arrow keys on a keyboard?

And if there must be, why aren't they on top rather than the bottom?

It is precisely the movement of tilting your wrist to the right and moving it
back that causes strain. If the keys were on top, there's enough flesh around
your elbow to allow extending the hand straight forward without strain.

------
drKreso
Two best are Dinove Edge & IBM model M... I have both and I prefer IBM
(buckling spring is priceless when you grook it)

~~~
jgeorge
Unicomp still makes buckling spring keyboards with IBM's Model M (as well as
other IBM) designs. They're loud as hell but feel great.
<http://www.pckeyboard.com/> You can ask them for Mac keycap replacements to
swap out the ctrl/windows/alt keys with control/option/command keycaps. Works
great on my Mac with swapping Alt and Option key functions in the keyboard
preferences panel.

~~~
bdunbar
_They're loud as hell_

I work in a semi-open plan office. I was concerned about this last year when I
got my Unicomp keyboard.

I've been assured by my peers that the sound is noticeable, but not loud.

------
rizumu
I have a Happy Hacking and a DasKeyboard, and often I prefer the Das because I
like the clicking sounds it makes. They are both excellent, but the keys do
feel much nicer on the HHK. You have to learn to live without easy access to
the arrow keys on the HHK. On the HHK arrows, pgup, and pgdwn requries holding
the FN key.

~~~
mattbriggs
Happy hacking uses topre switches, which are about as high quality rubber dome
as it gets, but you really pay through the nose for them. Das uses cherry mx,
which are spring buckling switches (like the model m), and are much cheaper
then topres, even though they cost more to produce. I am also a big fan of
cherry switches, but I know many huge keyboard nerds who swear up and down
that topres are the best there is.

------
sepeth
I love typematrix 2030 dvorak keyboard.
<http://www.typematrix.com/2030/why.php>

But Control key position isn't good for Emacs users and there seems to be no
alternative key to replace it with Control, like CapsLock on standard
keyboards.

------
philh
I'm a fan of the TypeMatrix 2030: <http://typematrix.com/>

It's not perfect - in particular, the double-height shift keys take too much
good pinky real estate. But it's very comfortable.

I haven't tried any other ergonomic keyboards, so I can't compare.

~~~
mcartyem
It needs other improvements too.

The cut, app, play, calc, www buttons are largely getting in the way
(particularly www.)

PageUp and PageDown are nearly useless, since you have to strain your wrist to
get to them being down there.

And the Fn key is frighteningly useless, hidden as far left down as possible.
How could anyone use the blue arrow keys with it?

Also, has anyone noticed the TypeMatrix 2020 was softer than the TypeMatrix
2030?

------
chx
Kinesis FreeStyle with an Ascent. Your wrist will thank you for it.

Do not try to go vertical immediately. The Ascent is nicely notched, start at
notch 1, work yourself up every 1-2 days. I know some people stopping before
getting fully vertical. That's still better than all the horizontal keyboards.

------
jopython2
I use the genius keyboard. No numpad and costs less than $20.
[http://www.amazon.com/Genius-LuxeMate-Compact-Stylish-
Keyboa...](http://www.amazon.com/Genius-LuxeMate-Compact-Stylish-
Keyboard/dp/B003YGVDDU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1333762634&sr=8-1)

------
sellably
I think one of the biggest failings of Macs/Macbooks is the "feel" of their
keyboards. I'd love to see what their industrial designers could do if tasks
with making an IBM Type M sort of feel with an Apple twist.

~~~
aerique
I guess there's no accounting for a person's preferences: I recommended them
elsewhere on this page because I love their feel so much :-)

Never liked the loud "clickety" sound nor the feel of the Type M keyboards.

------
gergely
I really love Dell's keyboard
<http://www.dpro.ru/netcat_files/catalog/1_12005.jpg> I found it quite
ergonomic.

~~~
kittxkat
I agree, especially in contrast with all those horribly overpriced
"hacker"-keyboards. I've used it for 5 years now, and love it. My only
complaint is that I wish it had no key pad as it takes up too much space
between the typing keyboard and the mouse.

------
eddie_the_head
This one for APL of course:
<http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/adcolkey.html>

------
bryanlarsen
If you're looking for a cheap tenkeyless cherry blue that you can easily find
locally, I recommend the cmstorm quickfire. Warning: it's gamer ugly.

------
wamatt
Apple wireless keyboard is great. Really good form and function.

Of course, it helps if you've bought into the whole Apple ecosystem.

------
mcartyem
What makes you believe there is a negative correlation between keyboard age
and keyboard goodness?

~~~
pagekalisedown
Good question!

Case-in-point, this is the exact keyboard I use to this day:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MS_Natural_Keyboard_Pro.JP...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MS_Natural_Keyboard_Pro.JPG)

It's ancient, but I love it!

------
duiker101
the one you are comfortable with

