
Navy Warship Is Still Ablaze, and Now Tilting to One Side - tosh
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/naval-ship-fire-san-diego.html
======
Waterluvian
I have none of the knowledge and all of the curiosity about at what point is
it cheaper to just commission a new one.

A fire burning that long must be pretty hot. Does that compromise the steel?
Is the wiring and electronics basically gutted by now?

Also curious. It was being refitted. Would they have removed most of the fuel
(or left it low)? Was it full of hmmvws and APCs and stuff? I guess it
wouldn’t have a traditional ammunition battery wanting to explode, it’s not a
battleship or anything. Jet fuel?

~~~
culturestate
_> at what point is it cheaper to just commission a new one_

I have no idea how they perform the calculus on this, but remember that the
USS Cole had a hole blown in its hull large enough that it had to be
transported back to the US on top of _another ship_ , and was still put back
into service after refit.

~~~
mrep
Granted, this was in the 40's, but they even raised most of the sunk boats in
pearl harbor and rebuilt them after the attack [0].

[0]:
[https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/Decoder/2012/1207/Pea...](https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/Decoder/2012/1207/Pearl-
Harbor-resurrection-the-warships-that-rose-to-fight-again)

~~~
tomxor
That is so cool, each time I learn some aspect of the resourcefulness of
countries involved in ww2 I always feel inspired.

Random story connection at miniature scale - While traveling around Loas a few
years ago, one of the places we stayed was on a river with boats available,
the other guests took the few canoes available in the evening before we had a
chance... my partner was quite disappointment as we were only there for one
night. I found what at first looked like an unsalvagable very green old wooden
one sunk about 4ft next to the pontoon, since I had nothing else to do -
within about 30mins, some perseverance, creative use of levers and sheer
"manliness" I managed to surface enough of it to flip it over and scoop some
air into it, drag it to shore, empty it, polish the algea off the seats and
put it back in the water to test it's hull.

We had a great time in our old green boat, and ended up exploring more of the
river's tributaries than all the other guests :)

There is something very satisfying about bringing stuff back to life when you
have real utility for it and then enjoying it.

------
Avalaxy
How does a ship like this burn for so long? Is there much that can be burned?
I was under the impression it's mostly steel and other non-flammable
materials. I was also under the impression that a ship like this is
compartmentalized in sections that can be individually shut off (to deprive it
of enough oxygen to keep the fire going).

~~~
throwanem
Paint, oil, tar, grease, hydraulic fluids, stores of any kind - steel won't
burn, but all that stuff does and there's plenty of it. Even museum ships
smell richly of volatiles. Go into an unventilated space on a hot day and it's
not hard at all to imagine a fire.

Compartmentalization is much more for controlling flooding than fire, although
it can help slow down (but not stop) the spread of fire throughout a ship. It
sounds a bit late for that in this case, and setting watertight integrity also
requires people to physically close and dog hatches which likely can't even be
survivably reached at this point.

~~~
neverartful
Steel can indeed burn (although it's not a fuel/combustible). Anyone who's
done any blacksmithing with coal will most likely have first-hand experience
of steel burning.

~~~
throwanem
I guess just about anything will burn in oxygen if you can get enough heat
into it to ignite it, sure. That's why I said the steel _won 't_ burn, not
that it _can 't_ burn. I don't think a fire aboard a ship would be likely to
manage it, although a specialist in shipboard fires may know better.

------
indymike
One of the most unexpected parts of enlisting in the Navy was the focus on
fire safety and fire fighting skills. It will be interesting to read the
report on what happened.

~~~
jki275
It will be a year or more, but I'll definitely read it when it comes out.

------
wycy
Reminds me of the time a shipyard worker set fire to a submarine, totaling it,
because he wanted to go home early[0]. I imagine the Bonhomme Richard will be
decommissioned too. I hope they eventually find the cause, will be interested
to hear what it was.

[0]
[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/15/nuclea...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/15/nuclear-
submarine-fire/1990663/)

~~~
hourislate
It's always the Welder...

For some reason they tend to burn down a lot of things. My Dad was a welder,
he set himself on fire daily. My Mom would always be yelling at him for all
the holes in his cloths.

~~~
userbinator
Welding involves lots of sparks and flames.

------
vidanay
> The fire was first reported in a lower cargo area where seafaring tanks and
> landing craft are parked. It appears to have started in a spot where
> cardboard boxes, rags and other ship maintenance supplies were being stored,
> Sobeck said.

I will not be surprised if this ends up being an "oily rag" fire.

[https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/Public-
Education/Resource...](https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/Public-
Education/Resources/Safety-tip-sheets/OilyRagsSafetyTips.ashx)

------
valuearb
The US has nearly half of the worlds aircraft carriers (20 out if 43). It also
has the 10 or 11 largest carriers in the world, and about two thirds of world
aircraft carrier tonnage.

All of these carriers cost billions, the largest group over $10B each. It is
speculated that modern anti-carrier missiles make them expensive sitting ducks
in any serious shooting war.

------
bkev
Reminds me of the S.S. Normandie [https://boats.drivemag.com/features/the-
golden-era-of-transa...](https://boats.drivemag.com/features/the-golden-era-
of-transatlantic-voyage-ep-3-ss-normandie-the-fastest-french-liner)

------
MaxBarraclough
Paywall workaround:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20200714115743/https://www.nytim...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200714115743/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/naval-
ship-fire-san-diego.html)

Wikipedia article on the ship:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Bonhomme_Richard_(LHD-6)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Bonhomme_Richard_\(LHD-6\))

~~~
smichel17
Interestingly, I only run into the paywall on mobile. On desktop, I can get it
to show the "click here to view full article" box if I use Firefox's
responsive design mode, but that's it.

In any case, another workaround is simply disabling/blocking javascript. I did
this with uBlock Origin on Firefox for Android.

~~~
mkl
I think it's to do with how many articles you've viewed from each browser in
the last month or something. Sounds like you've visited more NY Times articles
on mobile recently.

~~~
smichel17
Perhaps, but I don't think so:
[https://i.imgur.com/vnn3qlB.png](https://i.imgur.com/vnn3qlB.png)

Perhaps my desktop browser does a poorer job of protecting my anonymity.
That's an annoying thought, given I go to moderate lengths to make myself less
track-able.

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pinkfoot
> Military officers are held accountable in ways that politicians and
> bureaucrats (almost) never are.

"On Monday, President Trump pardoned the convicted war criminal Michael
Behenna, who had murdered Ali Mansur, an unarmed, naked Iraqi, by shooting him
in the head and chest."

Kindly only sip the cool-aid.

~~~
klyrs
Trump's an anomaly and I've heard a lot of military members are very upset by
his intervention with Gallagher.

~~~
pinkfoot
Sure, then how about these paragons of military justice:

1\. In 1998, a US maring navigator flew - against US regulations - his fighter
aircraft at low altitude over the Cavalese ski resort in Italy.

The muppets managed to cut the wires of crowded cable car - killing 20 allied
civilians. Captain Ashby and Captain Schweitzer were put on trial … and found
not guilty of involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide.

2\. In 2001 the Navy Los Angeles-class submarine USS Greeneville (SSN-772)
submarine deliberately breached the surface to impress some politicians
onboard. The muppets managed to sink a Japanese teaching ship - killing 9
allied civilians, including 4 children.

After Commander Waddle had faced the Naval Board of Inquiry, it was decided
that a full court-martial would be unnecessary and he was given an honorable
discharge.

I can go on, but I doubt I have the karma :)

~~~
dctoedt
1\. The pilot (Ashby) and NFO (Schweitzer) were subsequently convicted of
conduct unbecoming for destroying evidence; each was dismissed from the Marine
Corps (the officer equivalent of a dishonorable discharge, which in turn is
the equivalent of a felony conviction, which stays with you for life), and
Ashby was imprisoned for six months. [0]

2\. The USS _Greeneville_ incident was a career-ender for pretty much everyone
who was even remotely involved; that's small comfort to the families of the
people who died, but the problem seems to have been one of failing do one last
precautionary check after doing others, and Murphy's Law worked its magic. I
wasn't a sub sailor so I can't really opine as to whether or not that was
grossly negligent or simply one of those stupid mistakes that humans sometimes
make. [1]

[0]
[https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(199...](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_\(1998\))

[1]
[https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville_c...](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville_collision#/Findings_of_the_court)

~~~
lultimouomo
So the civilian contractor who set on fire a submarine with no casualties
(linked elsewhere in this thread) got 17 years of jail, but the military pilot
who killed 20 innocent civilians (in an allied country, while not even being
at war) got 6 months. Not a blazing example of military accountability.

~~~
dctoedt
Well, let's see: On the one hand, the Marine pilot did something that _in
different circumstances_ he would have been _required_ to do (low-level
flight, e.g., in combat and/or in training for combat). Moreover, there was
considerable doubt whether they had been provided with up-to-date maps showing
what areas were off-limits. They were acquitted of the manslaughter charges —
but they were later cashiered for destroying evidence, i.e., a videotape of
the accident [2], because for military officers, integrity is supposed to be
at the top of the list of required personal qualities.

Oh, and let's not forget that the pilot and NFO had previously had good
records (AFAIK) _and_ for many years had been putting their asses on the line
for their country every single time they took off in a plane. (There's an old
joke that when you join the U.S. military, you sign a blank check made out to
the People of the United States of America, payable in any amount up to and
including your life.)

On the other hand, we have the civilian "yardbird" who, wanting to go home,
intentionally started a fire that led to the essentially-total loss [3] of a
major national military asset. "Rear Adm. Richard Breckenridge, a submarine
group commander, said the ship's extensive damage had ripple effects around
the Navy, delaying repairs on other vessels and leading to longer deployments
for thousands of sailors." [4]

If you don't see why that might lead to very-different sentences for the two
cases, I'm afraid we don't have much else to discuss on that point.

[2]
[https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(199...](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_\(1998\))

[3]
[https://www.wikiwand.com/en/USS_Miami_(SSN-755)#/2012_fire](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/USS_Miami_\(SSN-755\)#/2012_fire)

[4]
[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/15/nuclea...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/15/nuclear-
submarine-fire/1990663/)

~~~
lultimouomo
They destroyed the evidence that would have proved if they were intentionally
trying to sneak below the cable car or not... and they got away with a grand
total of 6 months of detention. This is beyond ridiculous, no civilian would
have had it so easy.

But I agree, I don't think we have much else to discuss, indeed.

------
tokai
They should scuttle it and let the sea put it out.

~~~
chipsa
Probably not enough draft under the keel for the ship to actually submerge.
Also, expensive for having to replace a bunch of equipment that is now dunked
in seawater. Let alone raising the ship afterward.

~~~
bredren
Not to mention the sheer embarrassment. It’s one thing to choose to junk a
ship.

Another to do so in public after an accidental fire at port on a 1.5B mini
aircraft carrier.

~~~
crisnoble
The entire county smelling the burning ship for the 3rd day today, and they
estimate a week total, seems more of an embarrassment to me. The military
blows through 1.5B and the public wouldn't bat an eye. Leaving a flaming ship
less than a mile from a major downtown for a week, and everyone will (is)
complaining at the wastefulness of the Navy. I live 6 miles away and going
outside is unbearable, people are smelling it 20+ miles away in Alpine and
North County. I have been trying to imagine what it is like in the
neighborhoods adjacent to the base right now, it was a hot week, and many
don't have AC, keeping the windows closed is a nightmare.

