
Ask HN: What Is a Good Daylight/SAD Lamp? - blue1379
I really struggle to cope with the darkness during winter mornings, I&#x27;m looking to buy some kind of sun-type lamp before next winter comes.<p>After some googling, the space seems inundated with pseudo-science snake oil garbage. Any recommendations for high powered broad spectrum lamps?
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syntaxing
I use the cheapest Philips Wake-Up lamp and it works great for me
([https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F0W1RIW/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F0W1RIW/)).
The down side is that the alarm is crappy so I drilled out the piezo speaker
with a small drill bit.

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cerberusss
I've used the Philips Bright Light HF 3304. It appears they don't sell it
anymore, though. Philips light therapy lamps:
[https://www.usa.philips.com/c-m-pe/light-
therapy](https://www.usa.philips.com/c-m-pe/light-therapy)

Do consider therapy, a new relationship and/or a new job though.

~~~
blue1379
I am happy with those and other facets of my life. I just really struggle with
the shorter daylight hours during winter, maybe because I grew up in a
different latitude to where I live now.

~~~
cerberusss
Good to hear. I've thought of something else -- is the lighting in your office
good enough? It may be quite easy to replace those with a much higher lumens
rating.

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PascLeRasc
Here's the one I got, I love it:
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075H39NDL](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075H39NDL)

I keep it on the medium setting for 10 minutes and the rest of the day feels
so much better than days where I don't. I can go outside in 0°F and it still
feels warm. It totally fixed my energy and motivation issues with SAD.

Here's my Ask HN thread about SAD treatments, for more ideas:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18257011](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18257011)

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upofadown
I like to stimulate the appropriate photodetectors directly. I have a bank of
blue leds aimed at my white ceiling. They are on for 12 minutes every 2 hours
for the 12 daylight hours (7 times a day). The first lightcycle in the morning
is for 24 minutes as the 12 minutes did not seem to be enough.

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vidro3
the Daylight by uplift technologies usually in the $100 range on amazon.
According to a psychiatrist i spoke with this model is what was used in some
of the studies showing the benefits of bright light therapy. I've used it for
years and it makes a big difference.

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vidro3
some good material here including purchasing recommendations, though a few
years old. [https://psycheducation.org/treatment/bipolar-disorder-
light-...](https://psycheducation.org/treatment/bipolar-disorder-light-and-
darkness/light-therapies-for-depression/)

~~~
tofof
Much of that material is okay, but unfortunately a lot of truth has also
gotten pretty badly mangled and misinterpreted.

They cite Terman that dawn simulation is not quite as good as light box
therapy but better than placebo (true!), however..

They also claim that dawn simulators are "really nothing more than a timer and
a rheostat (a device to slowly change electrical current) hooked to your
bedside lamp." This is FALSE, and Terman himself hates such devices,
explicitly calling them out in the 2013 review I detail in my main reply. The
devices used by Terman in his trial that demonstrated dawn simulation efficacy
were on tripods so that they projected light downward, from a meter above the
bed [1].

This is exactly the sort of misinformation that enables the snake oil the OP
complained of. But I don't mean to make you feel bad; the presentation is of
high enough quality it would've fooled anyone who hadn't actually read the
original research. Your recommendation of the Daylight by Carex/Uplift is
terrific; it has indeed been used in studies and is probably the most
reasonably priced of the reputable light boxes.

[1]:
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6648580_Controlled_...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6648580_Controlled_Trial_of_Naturalistic_Dawn_Simulation_and_Negative_Air_Ionization_for_Seasonal_Affective_Disorder)

~~~
vidro3
thanks for the insight

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jarl-ragnar
I've used a Lumie Bodyclock Starter 30 as my alarm clock for over 10 years.
It's completely transformed my morning. Stick it on a bedside table and its
alarm function simulates a sunrise over 30 minutes.

~~~
wenc
Same. I've been using the Philips Wake-Up Light (HF3520) which simulates a
gentle gradual sunrise for the past 2 years.

The main benefit I've noticed that it doesn't matter what season it is, the
sun always rises at the same time, which makes for a happier circadian rhythm
(for me at least).

(I live in the northern U.S where there are long winters and daylight saving
is observed, which makes for variable sunrise times over the course of the
year)

I don't use the alarm feature though -- my phone is my alarm.

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mkycl
I switched from a dedicated SAD alarm clock (Lumie Bodyclock Starter 30) to
using the wake up routine with a Philips Hue bulb. Such an improvement, maybe
because it evenly brightens up the whole room.

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tofof
Traditional light therapy is 10000 lux for 30 minutes. The earliest research
used 2500 lux for 2 hours. If you have Bipolar I the probability of
undesirable side effects is much higher and you have to be more cautious with
the trio of intensity, duration, and timing window.

A major recent paper on the use of light therapy is the 2013 review by Terman
& Terman [1]. If you're mildly scientifically inclined, it's an easy enough
read and includes valuable information on determining the optimal timing
window for light therapy, which varies (sometimes substantially) from patient
to patient, as well as an overview of successful light therapy regimens and
the use of melatonin.

(Note on melatonin, from that paper - optimal doses are on the order of 0.2
mg. Pills at the drugstore are usually 3-5 mg, so strong they'd actually
further disrupt circadian regulation. Even 0.5mg is usually too much.)

Terman himself authored the main paper exploring the use of dawn simulation as
an alternative to traditional lightbox therapy. He too is incensed at the
snake oil you're finding: "These findings led to a spate of untested
commercial 'dawn alarm clocks' that differ, however, from the clinical trial
device ... which [are] easily missed by turning away on the pillow. _Such
alarm clocks have no demonstrated efficacy._ " The 'dawn alarm clocks' he is
railing against squarely includes such devices as the Philips Wake-Up HF3520
and the Lumie Bodyclock Starter mentioned by other responses here.

In addition to the techniques discussed in Terman's review, the AutoMEQ
Morningness-Eveningness Questionnaire [2] can help you determine the ideal
time window for light therapy.

One way to fight sketchy lux claims is by calculating things yourself. The
issue is that lumens is a measure of output, while lux is a measure of
received light. Converting between the two requires specifying how the output
is spread (ie everywhere/spherically vs more directionally).

The lower calculator here [3] allows you to convert lumens to lux. You can
determine the type of bulb used in any reputable light box and you can look up
its properties, like lumens, on any decent bulb webstore, e.g. 1000bulbs.
Fluorescent especially put out less and less over their lifetime, so the
listed 'initial' lumens isn't really appropriate, you want the mean lumens if
possible.

For example, my lightbox [4], a reputable one that's been used in clinical
trials, claims 10000 lux at 12". So, we calculate: Three 36 W 2g10 bulbs. 2400
lumens (mean) per bulb. Sanity check: 66 lumens/W, nicely within the 60-80
expected [5] range. Now to the calculator - 7200 lumens, 0.3 meters, and we
start with a beam angle of 180 (hemispherical). The calculator returns 12732
lux. In other words, yes, this lightbox is capable of hitting 10000 lux at
12", as long as it sends all the energy forward hemispherically, which is a
close enough approximation to truth.

Finally, once you're laying out $100 on a therapy lamp, you might as well just
drop $13-$17 more [6][7] and get a simple lux meter and then you can be sure
of exactly the amount of light received at your retina. I have the second [7]
meter and can attest to its ease of use and accuracy. It's also handy to be
able to measure after several months of use the light now produced by your
fluorescents, so that you can replace them or lengthen your therapy
accordingly as they drop.

Oh - one last tip. Depending on your morning routine, you may want to do light
therapy at your computer. The 12" distance needed by many lightboxes is very
short. I mounted my lightbox onto a vesa monitor arm (just screwed through the
back housing) that is installed behind and above my monitor. For my light
therapy, I can swing the light into place, and when I'm done I tuck it back
out of the way.

1:
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264037149_Chronothe...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264037149_Chronotherapeutics_Light_Therapy_Wake_Therapy_and_Melatonin)

2:
[https://www.researchgate.net/file.PostFileLoader.html?id=56a...](https://www.researchgate.net/file.PostFileLoader.html?id=56a509e05f7f71225a8b4567&assetKey=AS%3A321473003098112%401453656544221)

3:
[http://www.ledstuff.co.nz/data_calculators.php](http://www.ledstuff.co.nz/data_calculators.php)

4: [https://smile.amazon.com/Carex-Health-Brands-Day-Light-
Class...](https://smile.amazon.com/Carex-Health-Brands-Day-Light-
Classic/dp/B0009MFUWC)

5:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy#Examples_2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy#Examples_2)

6: [https://smile.amazon.com/Proster-Luxmeter-
Illuminance-0-1-20...](https://smile.amazon.com/Proster-Luxmeter-
Illuminance-0-1-200000-0-01-20000/dp/B0718VXDC5)

7: [https://smile.amazon.com/Digital-Luxmeter-Illuminance-
Displa...](https://smile.amazon.com/Digital-Luxmeter-Illuminance-
Display-0-1-50/dp/B00992B29I)

