
Sex over distance using affordable consumer teledildonic robots - frixionme
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/hackable-robot-assisted-virtual-sex-is-nigh
======
flycaliguy
Let's face it, being a senior citizen in 25+ years is going to be amazing. I
can't wait to retire and just have Viagra fuelled cyber VR sex all day. Take a
drag of my e-cig after and sent some bitcoins to my grand kids.

~~~
ChrisNorstrom
That's fine for you but... I'm horrified at what your grand kids will have
access to.

~~~
bitops
That future is already here. Reading the book "Pornland" by Gail Dines was
both shocking and informative. You can be horrified right now at what kids are
consuming.

~~~
mst
It seems from most of her public output that Dines' primary goal is to
horrify, more so than to reliably inform.

[http://www.charlieglickman.com/2010/07/08/7-ways-to-
create-a...](http://www.charlieglickman.com/2010/07/08/7-ways-to-create-a-sex-
positive-critique-of-porn/)

is one example of an article critiquing her work.

~~~
bitops
Have you read any of her books?

~~~
mst
Given her general alarmist tone and the fact that I can find plenty of
critiques of her failure to give a voice to bodies of evidence that arguably
contract her conclusions, but not rebuttals, I'm not sure why I'd want to.

I did, admittedly, manage to find

[http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comment...](http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/is_porn_hijacking_our_sexuality_part_2)

which appears to point out that she consulted meta-studies ... on the other
hand, it also indicates that (a) she's comfortable referring to spanking as
physical abuse (b) she explains that "My failure to give a detailed definition
of porn, or my refusal to celebrate porn as a diverse set of cultural
products, comes not from laziness or oversight but a commitment to a radical
political economy."

... and it ends with "So please don’t ask us radical feminists to waste our
time coming up with scholarly definitions. We have an industry to close down."

Which seems to suggest that she believes that when you're trying to argue that
X is bad, defining X clearly is a waste of time.

I ... really don't think I can see a reason to want to read her books now.

~~~
bitops
In this case, I'll find it completely acceptable to disregard you.

If you're going to choose to ignore a comment by someone who's actually
bothered to read her 165-page book (which includes 200+ references) in favor
of googling some web articles that support a position of ignoring feminist
critiques of porn, in all likelihood you don't care about improving society
for women.

I am taking a strong tone because your comment seems to say that if you
believe feminism is bad, giving time to thoroughly investigate feminism is
clearly a waste of time.

~~~
mst
Part of the problem that I have is her choice to automatically dismiss any
sex-positive feminist critiques - which you're implicitly doing too by calling
hers a feminist critique rather than including the sex-negative tag required
to provide a reasonably accurate pointer at the form of feminism behind the
critique.

I've done plenty of reading on both sex-positive and sex-negative feminisms'
attitudes towards porn, but Dines' mixture of disingenuous reframing and
shrill moralising reminds me more of anti-abortion activists than anything
else and contributes rather more to my opinion of Gail Dines than my opinion
of the more rational sex negative critiques of porn.

(I'd recommend the blog series Prude's Progress - it's not a porn critique but
an excellent exploration of sex negativity fully thought through)

~~~
bitops
I'm upvoting you for linking to Prude's Progress which looks like somebody
trying to think critically about something. And also for the change in tone.
I'll try to match you as best I can.

I think the notions of 'sex-positive' and 'sex-negative' are kind of weird,
personally. When I read those terms, my mind tends to translate it into
"people who think mainstream pornography is fine" and "those who think
mainstream pornography has issues."

I guess what I feel is missing from the comments you've made so far is your
personal attitude towards pornography. It's easy for all of us to criticize
this or that thinker, but it's much harder (and more painful) to introspect
and consider what our own attitudes say about us.

Let me volunteer to go first: I've consumed a great deal of pornography in the
past, and it's only this year that I stopped in earnest. Looking at
pornography made me feel depressed, disconnected from my feelings, and I
noticed that it made it hard for me to relate to women in my daily life. Not
'hard to relate' like I couldn't talk to them, but in that I felt
uncomfortable talking to somebody as a human being when I'd just watched
images that really degraded them.

Now, I was raised in a very liberal Scandinavian country, and my parents are
far from prudes. Neither of my parents demonized sex, and growing up, they
always said "it's okay if you do it, just make sure you use protection." So
the discomfort I felt in looking at porn didn't come from being raised in a
moralistic, Bible-thumping household.

When I read Gail Dines book, I find my own thoughts reflected back to me. I
find your label of "shrill moralising" somewhat offensive, but you may also be
offended by some of the things that I am saying.

Also, and this is important to me, I think it's very possible to get too
rational about the whole discussion. You referenced "rational sex negative
critiques of porn." I am fine with logic and reason, but I often notice that
people who focus too much on rational arguments are avoiding a frank
discussion about their own emotions or the emotions of the women being
discussed.

Anyway, if you've read this much, thank you. Hopefully you have a better
understanding of my perspective now.

~~~
mst
There's a lot more to both sex-positive and sex-negative discourse than their
opinions on pornography, and even those opinions are generally more nuanced
than 'fine' versus 'has issues' (the pervocracy blog's ongoing excoriation of
fifty shades of bad consent is an example of sex-positive critique, to my
mind).

I'd note also that I didn't intend to call your words shrill moralising; any
offence involved was supposed to be directed only at Gail Dines' writing
style.

I think ... mostly I think that an HN comment thread isn't going to be nearly
an optimal vehicle for the relatively deep discussion I think we'd need to
have just to get as far as having a shared set of terminology with which to
debate things. If you think that it's worth continuing to try, mst at
shadowcat.co.uk will reach me and we can take it from there.

------
tzs
> from a sex tech company called FriXion

Nice name. It has an obvious connection to the product, and if you want to
give out pens with the name on them you don't have to pay for custom printing
[1]!

[1]
[http://www.pilotpen.us/Brands/FriXion.aspx](http://www.pilotpen.us/Brands/FriXion.aspx)

~~~
ISL
Ha!

Interesting to see if Pilot would choose to pursue a trademark-infringement
case. "Yes, your honor, we think our writing implements can be reasonably
confused with a sex robot."

~~~
neurotech1
If Pilot Pens starting making a auto-signing machine pen, I could see someone
getting a tad confused.

------
h4pless
I wonder if the use of this technology by a paid webcam model on a client
would constitute prostitution.

Or what the social ramifications would be of having an omegle/chat-roulette
style chat system where people could have sex with anonymous strangers over
the internet at a moment's notice without any fear of pregnancy or sexually
transmitted disease.

~~~
philwelch
Well, "sex". This is probably nowhere near the real thing.

~~~
Fargren
But supposing it was, the ramifications would be interesting to explore. This
is the stuff good sci-fi is made of.

------
amirmc
Some items from the video that were not mentioned in the article: One to many
interactions, Record and replay experiences, Pre-recorded games/videos.

Of course, none of the above should really be a surprise but they still caught
me off-guard.

~~~
frixionme
Possibilities really open up with the telemetry translation api -- realizing
that the telemetry is digital, and only has to be encoded once to be read for
any purpose for any supported device is huge. We expect to be very busy for a
long time fleshing out all the applications we have in mind. One that we're
working on is using a users webcam to monitor heart rate (similar to the xbox
one + kinect) and use that information to create a soft vibration that pulses
in their partners device in time, so when one gets "excited" the other can
feel the haptic feedback and vice versa simultaneously..

This is some real scifi stuff we're doing and it's very exciting

~~~
telecuda
Have you talked through what the company will do once developers start
creating FriXion experiences with virtual children? Are you taking a hands-off
approach (no pun intended) to what people do with the technology, or do you
plan on vetting each application? If presented with an abuse scenario, would
you cooperate with law enforcement to find who is "connecting" with (or
creating) these children? I'm not knocking the tech or your intention to make
a fun product - just throwing out some important questions.

------
Nursie
Now you can have sex without even touching another human being!

Yeah, this is one activity I think I've going to stick to the old
meatspace/wetware paradigm for, sorry guys.

OTOH I'm sure it's a fun device to work on :)

~~~
GuiA
I'm not sure how dismissing your post is meant to be- but many people in long
distance relationships would love having such a product.

~~~
Nursie
Yes I did think that might be one application, though I'm not sure how sold I
would be even then. To each their own, and perhaps it would be better than
nothing, but it would kill the intimacy aspect for me.

~~~
frixionme
Intimacy is the name of the game, forget the dildos and fleshlights -- these
robots "mirror" each other one to one in both motion and resistance. just
using your hands you can push back and forth on each other and it's a _very_
intimate feeling of being connected physically.

~~~
Nursie
I appreciate this may work for some folks, but it's never going to replace
having limbs wrapped around each other and collapsing in a sweaty heap
afterwards.

And sure, this is opening up a entirely new avenue on top of
phone/cyber/webcam sex that wasn't available before, and marks a massive step
forward in what's available when people are geographically separate.

~~~
indrax
At some point the robots will have limbs and sweat.

------
frixionme
We are looking for partners and new connections on AngelList:
[http://www.angel.co/frixion](http://www.angel.co/frixion) , we are happy to
answer any questions

------
ksherlock
Too bad the NSA will be collecting all the metadata.

~~~
puller
People already volunteer who they're having sex with on Facebook

------
eaurouge
Telemetry translation API? Seriously? You're recording 3D motion inputs,
transmitting over UDP and playing back on a Novint Falcon. State of the art is
much more advanced than that.

~~~
frixionme
Our work with the Falcon is just one device (and we're very proud of that,
it's a big deal!) The ttapi is a universal language for haptics to connect any
device to any other where functionality overlaps. This way new devices can be
developed by third parties that can innovate independently and still see an
immediate market and userbase. The ttapi is used for games, video, and other
software to interact with the user through these devices as well. It's a
critical aspect of the potential of the frixion platform.

~~~
eaurouge
Are you doing force reflection with the Falcon? Doesn't seem like it from your
videos. It sounds like I'm being dismissive but I think you're overhyping your
tech, just a bit. What I see in your video is not cutting edge (yet), this is
from my experience of reading papers and attending conferences on
telemanipulation and haptics, and doing research in this area.

------
snomad
The referring URL should _NOT_ use 'kid' for the id.

[http://www.frixion.me?kid=99999](http://www.frixion.me?kid=99999)

------
surrealize
THX1138, from 1971, depicting a dystopian future:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njfm7HKNSmM](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njfm7HKNSmM)

Note the machine! You can't see exactly what it's doing, but you can see the
way it's moving :)

~~~
frixionme
It's been so confusing that nobody has stepped up to make it happen. In
reality, this area of haptics is a patent and licensing mine field and these
tightly controlled properties have stifled innovation until now.

In choosing this problem to "solve" much of the effort has been put into
overcoming these bureaucratic obstacles to be able to bring a useful platform
to market that isn't just gimmicky vibrators. We're super proud of our
accomplishments not just with the robots, but to be able to make this a
marketable and useful platform that can democratize remote intimacy to the
advantage of everyone.

The distopian conversation is an interesting one, and it's been a constant
banter here -- but for now what we're doing is trying to bring people closer,
not isolate them. This is a tool, a supplement -- not a replacement for real
sex. Also, I love that we have to say REAL SEX now to differentiate.

------
001sky
_Teledildonic_

^^This is a Word?

~~~
waterlesscloud
Yes, and probably older than a lot of people reading this comment.

Howard Rheingold column using the term in a 1990 issue of Mondo 2000.
[http://janefader.com/teledildonics-by-howard-rheingold-
mondo...](http://janefader.com/teledildonics-by-howard-rheingold-
mondo-2000-1990/)

------
moocowduckquack
I hope this doesn't gum up the inter-tubes.

------
joshguthrie
Where's the API for this? I want to build the first VSAAS (Virtual Sex As A
Service).

~~~
frixionme
Unfortunately the API wont be released for third party development until next
year, likely well into the beta period. But stay tuned! Right now we're
working with various vendors that are trying to get their devices supported
ahead of time.

------
recuter
This reminds me too much of one:
[http://archer.wikia.com/wiki/Doctor_Krieger](http://archer.wikia.com/wiki/Doctor_Krieger)

John Carmack will really need to outdo himself to make the technology for this
sort of thing actually viable and not just easy "what will those pervy nerds
think of next" news fodder. We are many multiple decades out. I'm speaking
strictly as a person who actually had sex mind you.

~~~
frixionme
Nothing but respect for fellow robot sex pioneers ;)

~~~
charlieflowers
Are you saying, "I, for one, welcome our new sexual robotic overlords"?

------
anonymfus
Yet another pop culture reference — French-Belgian movie "Thomas est
amoureux":

[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0262826/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0262826/)

[http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_est_amoureux](http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_est_amoureux)
(no English version of this article exist, only French, Russian and very short
Italian)

------
kleiba
What's up with the cartoon horse in the video?

~~~
frixionme
They are RIDING the horse!
[http://i.imgur.com/dsDg8.gif](http://i.imgur.com/dsDg8.gif) (i suppose it's
easier to see in the video if you go full screen)

------
arianvanp
Sex over wire. this is brilliant. There are gonna be a lot of no-nodders, but
trust me, this is going to be a thing in the future.

------
venomsnake
There was april fool's joke 12 years ago about a device called FuFme that did
exactly that. The world changes.

~~~
rok3
Still around... haha

[http://www.easylife.org/fufme/](http://www.easylife.org/fufme/)

------
yetanotherphd
How safe is this? It seems difficult to deliver enough force to be realistic
without the potential to damage sensitive organs.

~~~
frixionme
It's quite safe, the robots you see in the video have a maximum output that is
quite gentle, enough to push small and medium sized toys through a well
lubricated passage-way but otherwise harmless.

We have stronger devices that will also be supported day 1 on the beta, and
these devices have their power and stroke length defined in the driver
software. These more powerful devices aren't so much robots though, just
single axis articulation and no bidirectional feedback -- good enough for
accelerometer control though where there's no channel for feedback anyway.

ALSO, remember in encounters with humans communication is key! make sure they
know what you want and how, just as if they were really there.

------
fauigerzigerk
I just hope the product is better than the video and the music.

------
gfodor
it looks like my investment in sex slash Oculus related porn domains is well
on it's way.

------
ghostdiver
I'm sure that the technology behind this can be used for something more
useful.

~~~
frixionme
The technology we're using is taken from remote presence machines used for
things like remote surgeries. The machines are really just tracking a point in
3d space on both sides and matching it. For medical use, you can imagine the
robot arm tracking the edge of a doctors scapel to the micron accuracy -- what
we have here is a consumer grade robot for <200$ that tracks to milimeters.

It's a 3D force feedback mouse essentially, you can use it for manipulating
and creating 3D models and feel their texture, edges, material, weight, etc.

------
Dewie
[http://www.gizmag.com/nsfw-review-realtouch-sex-toy-for-
men/...](http://www.gizmag.com/nsfw-review-realtouch-sex-toy-for-men/26804/)

~~~
frixionme
We like the realtouch and intend to support it on the frixion platform
eventually -- it has an open source sdk available and having broad support for
diverse haptic experiences is the point of the plugin system -- however the
realtouch is different in some important ways compared to what we've
accomplished here using robotics.

The realtouch is an "input only" device that sits motionless on a mans lap
while the conveyor belts do their job either from an encoded video, or from a
live model using a touch sensitive dildo called a joystick. This is flow of
telemetry in a single direction -- to the realtouch. Our devices create a
tethered sense of physical intimacy and connection. One partner feels whats
happening with the other side, and vice versa, simultaneously. Also, our
design has all the moving parts on the outside, which we feel is more
appealing than sticking your penis into an opaque grinding box. (Our devices
are _very_ quiet btw, will be adding new videos next week to demonstrate)

You can imagine when we add support for the realtouch that other devices on
the platfrom such as the robot itself and accelerometer products will be able
to send telemetry to the device to control its functions, and vice versa, the
joystick would be able to send telemetry to the robots to manipulate a
fleshlight/tenga/sleeve. It's really a robust api that enables all devices to
interact where their functionalities overlap.

However, we should all be supportive of realtouch right now -- it appears
they're having licensing issues with a certain patent holder that is turning
the screws on them and without intervention they wont be able to continue
selling devices next year. Dealing with this minefield of patents and
licensing has been an important predicate for our development at frixion, and
we are eager to create a "safe haven" for other developers to deploy their
devices under the agreements we hold in the future.

