
Ask HN: Potentially Moving to SF / SV with a Family - awaythrow101
Hi folks,<p>I could use some advice.  A few weeks ago, I did the Triplebyte quiz on a whim, later did their interview, and now I&#x27;m talking to companies in Silicon Valley &#x2F; San Francisco about potentially interviewing with them.  If you&#x27;re unfamiliar with Triplebyte, they do their own candidate vetting, with the promise that if you pass their process, you can go directly to a final interview at their client companies (typically early- to mid-stage startups, many YC graduates) who are located almost entirely in California or NYC.  (Triplebyte has been great, by the way, and I highly advise trying them out if you&#x27;re looking for a new position.[1])<p>I currently live in Ohio with my wife and infant daughter.  She has a fairly low income job (non-profit), and if we moved to California, she would be a stay-at-home mom.  We own a three bedroom house here.  I make roughly $85K as a full stack developer for a startup here for whom I&#x27;ve worked for a few years.<p>I&#x27;m going to be at the point soon where I need to pick the companies with whom I&#x27;ll interview.  The expenses of living in a SF &#x2F; SV suburb are scaring me.  Renting seems in the $3K+ range for a two bedroom (which would be the minimum since we have a daughter... may try for another child later). By comparison, my mortgage is ~$850 &#x2F; mo.<p>We&#x27;re relatively frugal and ideally want to get to a point where we can be financially independent, so savings rate is important.  We would also want to find a decent school district for when my daughter starts school.  Also, we would be moving away from my wife&#x27;s family, which would require her to fly up fairly frequently so our daughter could see her grandparents.<p>Basically I&#x27;m trying to figure out if I&#x27;m crazy for even considering this, and if there is a way to make it work.  Triplebyte has said I&#x27;m probably mid- to senior-level and could expect around $130k - $150k.<p>What are your thoughts?<p>1. Triplebyte referral link: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;triplebyte.com&#x2F;iv&#x2F;afyYdFu&#x2F;cp ($1500 for both if you get a job through them.)
======
divyekapoor
School district homes in SV (3b 2b 1300sqft+) are in the 1.5M range or higher
near the top employers in the Peninsula. If you're ok accepting a 40min+
commute, the cost reduces to about 900K Townhome + HOA in a good school
district.

A family of 4 in the bay area with household income at $105350 is low income
([http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/04/22/in-costly-bay-area-
eve...](http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/04/22/in-costly-bay-area-even-six-
figure-salaries-are-considered-low-income/)). At 150K you'll be living in
rented accommodations with $3K - $3500 in rent per month.

If you consider that your wife will start working, please be aware that
daycare starts at about $1.5K++ per month (it might be advantageous for your
wife to be a stay at home mom below a certain salary level).

I would recommend targeting a 200K+ total household income for this to work
for you.

~~~
shostack
I'm not sure you'll find a 3/2 even at that sqft in a decent school district.
Redwood City has not great schools and the decent parts of it are around $1.6+
for a starter home from the 50's. Areas with good schools are probably closer
to $1.6 or $1.7+. But I'd love to see some recently sold listing links proving
me wrong

Source: recent comps from redfin.

------
toomuchtodo
You will be accepting a decline in quality of life to move to SF for work
(increase in salary is not congruent with your increased expenses), and must
decide if its worth it.

I'd suggest looking for full stack remote jobs where you'll make
$100k-130k/year while remaining in Ohio (if thats where you want to live).
Leaving a support system/family behind if you have a child (and considering
another child) is not trivial.

Work remote, live better, visit SF once or twice a year for conferences to
network and mingle.

~~~
jdavis703
I think this is a myth. I went from making $55,000 per year as a software
engineer in Virgina to making over $100,000 per year in the Bay Area (I'm not
anonymous on here so keeping exact amount secret). My rent went from $1500 per
month to $2100 per month. My salary increase has more than covered the
increased cost of rent.

~~~
natch
That works for a single person. Not so much for a family looking for a good
school district.

~~~
jdavis703
I didn't grow up in a "good school district." In fact, we were frequently at,
or near the bottom in local rankings. However I think I've managed to do all
right in life -- the experiences a child learns from outside of school, from
libraries to good parenting, to just being allowed to roam -- are way more
important than what you learn in the classroom.

------
awaythrow102
> could expect around $130k - $150k

I make that working remotely from Michigan for a company on the east coast.
Costs and stress in SF will likely be substantial. I know, I went to college
in the bay area.

> Renting seems in the $3K+ range for a two bedroom

Thats like half your monthly paycheck, no? Doesnt sound safe.

Unless your wife also got an offer making a comparable amount there is no way
it would be worth it. I say this as someone that loves visiting Northern CA.

You should switch to remote and leverage your skills to make at least 120k.
Enjoy the good life in the Midwest and travel.

------
x0x0
Holy crap you're gonna be broke. Don't do it.

Expect to pay $3k-ish in the cheapest areas in the peninsula for an older 2
bedroom apartment. Now take all your expenses (eating out, gym, etc) and
multiply by 2-3. Oh, and food is at least twice as expensive as in the Midwest
(reference: when I fly home to see parents, I occasionally grocery shop for
them.) My grocery bill is $700-$800/mo for 2 adults, plus $300/mo of munchery.
(That said, I lift hard so I eat a lot of food. Still.)

I really need to emphasize that $3k is for a _crappy_ apartment thrown up in
the 80s for bottom dollar.

For comparison, friends rent a (small, crappy) detached 2 bedroom house with a
20x20 ft yard in Mountain View for $4700/mo.

If you want to be in eg Palo Alto Unified, expect to pay $5k-ish for a 3
bedroom. Also, a friend who moved here with a freshman daughter said she hates
the school and hates how competitive all the students are.

Sales tax is 9% btw. And don't forget our high state income taxes.

And if you ever managed to buy a home (which you won't be able to do), you'll
spend near $1m and pay roughly $1-$1.2k/mo in property taxes. For forever.
That makes saving enough money to retire extremely hard.

btw I help manage apartments here; leave your email below if you have
questions and I'm happy to answer anything directly.

~~~
randycupertino
That sounds cool, how did you get into managing apartments on the side?

------
tannhauser23
I have a family (spouse and two kids), work in SF, and live in the peninsula.
Quite honestly, I don't know if I can make it work in the long term. The cost
of housing is astronomical - any family home in the peninsula is a million at
least, and more likely in the $1.3-1.5 million range. Things are cheaper in
the east bay, but I still have to go to the near-end of the BART lines to find
a townhome in the $800k range. If I go out there, I probably can't ever take a
job in the peninsula because the commute will be too hellish.

Even with a developer salary I'm not able to save anything. Housing +
childcare/preschool eats everything up. In a few years when the kids are in
public k it's possible that I'll have some financial leeway again.

Spending few years here is worth it because this was a career change and I'm
able to learn a ton in the bay area. But unless my salary increases
dramatically in a few years, I'll likely move to another area.

For you, I'd wait until you have a few offers in hand, then calculate out how
much it would cost for you to live here.

------
pesfandiar
I also have an infant daughter, and don't even imagine moving to SV. Other
comments have talked enough about the finances, but the main factor for me
would be the work-life balance.

From what I hear in online communities, SV sounds extremely anti-family.
Companies that can hire new grads that will conveniently work overtime for
pizza and beer will not really value a 9-5 family man like yourself. Add to
that the stress and time-sink of long commutes, and that's all time that you
could be spending with your young family.

~~~
tannhauser23
It depends on the company. Mine is very family friendly. Don't believe
everything you read online (including me, haha) - remember that people who are
unhappy with their situation is more likely to post stuff online than people
who are content.

That said, commute is a killer.

~~~
randycupertino
I've been in interviews were afterwards the group consensus was to actively
not hire the newly engaged woman because people were nervous she'd get
pregnant and then take maternity leave. Blatantly illegal, but nobody wrote it
down, just said it out loud. She was well qualified and smart, but didn't get
an offer. "Culture fit."

------
ryandvm
I interviewed with Facebook a few years ago. Even before going I had already
done the math and decided that based on everything I knew about their
compensation, there was no way I could move my family out there without a
severe reduction in quality of life.

No matter how I sliced it, I was looking at least a few of the following:

    
    
       * Quadrupling our mortgage
       * Picking up a 30-60 minute commute
       * Sending my kids to either expensive private schools or terrible public ones
    

In the end, we ended up moving from the Midwest to Charleston, SC. It's
obviously not SV, but it has a pretty vibrant tech scene. But more
importantly, it's just a great place to raise a family. Reasonable cost of
living, excellent career opportunities, and the recreational opportunities are
endless.

Good luck, pal! I hope you make the right choice.

------
ytNumbers
This subject could be easier to address than you might imagine. Moving away
from your wife's family is a big sacrifice for her. Is there any advantage to
this move besides money?

~~~
phofangor
I totally agree with ytNumbers, family and support systems make a huge
difference in quality of life. If your wife needs to run out to do an errand
without your daughter, she can call family today. That won't be available in
the Bay Area, and you'll wind up paying someone (not to mention finding said
someone).

Also, you should look into Cost of Living calculators. They will take into
account your new salary, cost of living (rent, food, gas, etc.) compared to
your current salary. [http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-
living/](http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/)

Smaller living space and more traffic are two downsides to the Bay Area. The
weather is probably nicer, though, so any outdoor living space can be more
utilized.

Personally, I have allergies. That would also be a consideration when moving.
Can you take a few weeks trip out with everyone to see if there are any
problems (or if existing problems go away)?

------
sjg007
I would interview at Facebook as well. You can live across the bridge in the
East Bay where it is cheaper and some have good schools. But with such a big
population boom and concerned parents, schools in general will get better even
in bad areas since everything is gentrifying. Interview at Google as well but
if you do you should try to live in Mountain View since that commute really
sucks.

And since your daughter is young you can afford to spend a few years finding
the right place. Like I said, commuting sucks. If you pick an SF startup but
you are in San Jose, expect a 1hr minimum train ride each way that will be
very crowded. Traffic is also bad. Some places have rent control which is
nice.

Really think hard on startups you think will be acquired or IPO. You really
need the lottery ticket of options to be able to fund a downpayment in the
housing lottery. It's almost impossible to pick the right early stage
startup.. YC is a good filter but also go find the ones with the super smart
people. The type that succeed no matter what. Or find a startup with veteran
or ex-industry types. This is where networking in crucial.

It will be a shock. Then again the Bay area is beautiful with great things to
do but my guess is you'll be working all the time!!! :)

------
kingnothing
You should be able to make $120k+ as a senior engineer in any of the top 5-10
markets. For example, look at Chicago if you'd like to stay near where you
currently live and still have a reasonable cost of living.

There's no way I would stay in SF if I had children. Maybe south bay, but even
then you're still looking at spending $4k / month on a 3 bedroom house.

------
moocow01
If savings is your goal I wouldn't do it...

Just the difference in your housing costs (about 30k after taxes) wipe out
your salary increase. On top of that it sounds like you'd be losing a 2nd
income as well by moving so it looks like a net loss. On top of that other
things in the area are going to be some what more costly.

------
BadassFractal
Single income with a kid in the Bay is not going to be luxurious, you'll want
to prep for some cuts in lifestyle if you were used to nice things. That 150k
gets decimated by taxes real quick, + the 4k for a 2 bedroom which will have
to be further away from most of the "sexier" spots where it will cost a lot
more, hence more commuting.

E.g. you're taking home 90k after taxes, minus 50k for housing, that leaves
40k for you + wife + kid. Yes, you're not going to be starving, but you won't
be living large either.

Can you consider a remote gig with a SV company? You would stay in Ohio, get a
big bump to your current income stream, the wife and kids would not have to
move anywhere etc. You'll just have to fly into to the Bay once in a while to
spend time with the team, otherwise you'll be fine.

~~~
awaythrow101
I would love a remote gig, assuming it was as an FTE with benefits (healthcare
being important for family and all). My wife's company cannot afford to
provide any benefits whatsoever.

It just seems like recently, the move is toward in-office employment with
little to no work from home. I've talked to a handful of companies I'd love to
work with, but I'd be willing to bet that they would all balk at remote
employment.

~~~
shostack
What does your wife do for the non profit? Is it something transferable to the
corporate world where the pay would be a lot better? Or is one of your goals
for her to be a stay at home mom?

~~~
awaythrow101
She manages an after school drop-in center in a rural area, part time. I want
her to be happy, working or not; I think at the moment she likes staying at
home with our daughter, at least for now. I'm not sure how transferable it is.
This sort of thing tends to pay absolute bottom dollar unless you have a
Masters in Social Work or Masters in Education which she does not.

------
donnfelker
Moving to SF/SV sounds fun, until you look at the quality of life. If you're
hellbent on going this route, IMO you should possibly consider the NYC route
and live in NJ. Your prices will be high as well, but the quality of life is
much better. You can easily commute into NYC via train and then get back to NJ
and have some ability to have a "normal life" without being in the city.

That said, there are other options. Look at WeWorkRemotely.com and RemoteOk.io
for remote jobs. Get a good job, work remotely and have a good quality of
life.

I almost went down the SF/SV route many times. Each time I ran the pros/cons
and SF/SV has the worse return on life value for a family, IMO than almost
anywhere. I've worked remotely for nearly 9 years and love this life. No
commuting. Just my .02.

------
josephpmay
It's definitely possible to live a middle-class lifestyle with a $150k/year
salary in SV, although you'll likely have to give up some comforts you may be
used to (and also remember taxes are much higher in CA). Would your wife
consider working once you move? $180-200k of household income is much more
livable.

The biggest thing you might want to consider that you may not be thinking
about is the lifestyle difference. The weather is mild year-long here, which
means not having to deal with Ohio winters. If you like outdoorsey stuff,
hiking/camping/etc are huge here, and it's a day's drive to ski resorts.
You'll need to own a car here, but depending on where you live you may be able
to take public transport to work, and towns are very biking-accessible.

~~~
awaythrow101
My wife doesn't have much in the way of skills, and I fully acknowledge that
childcare would consume most / all of her income if she was working (that was
in my post originally but I had to cut it down to get under the 2K character
limit).

The weather does sound really nice, and we own our two Priuses outright. It's
sounding really unaffordable though.

------
pascalxus
SV / SF is no place for a family. Most of it is high crime and quite seedy.
You'll pay significantly more for housing. Only the 80% of SF which is rent
controlled is affordable (as an outsider, you'll never get this). At market
rate, For 6K/month you might be able to rent a tiny 2 bedroom apartment with
no parking. You'll never be able to save up for a condo and you can forget
about a house. Most of us, are trying to get out of SV/SF. I wouldn't
recommend you come here unless you'r facing homelessness or absolute
destitute.

If you do come, I recommend, you ask for 170K minimum. Even then, you should
make plans to leave within a few years.

~~~
dmode
I have been living in SV for many years. There is very little crime, not sure
what you are talking about. Even areas that were historically high crime (EPA
and Oakland) are rapidly gentrifying that there will be no crime in the next 5
years.

~~~
pascalxus
Not SV, but SF is quite high in crime.

------
bsvalley
As you can see, everyone is telling you not to move here under these
circumstances. I'm a long timer here and I can confirm, $150K is great for a
single person who's looking to rent and eventually share a place with a
roommate. You'd be able to enjoy what the Bay Area has to offer.

Under your circumstances, it's a No-Go for sure. Plus you'll end up dealing
with all the rudeness and competitiveness in Bay Area. That alone should keep
you away from the Bay. Then traffic, prices, etc. Long timers are actually
looking to get out of the Bay, snapping larger homes and a better quality of
life somewhere else.

------
mchannon
I'm fuzzy on why your wife would become a stay-at-home mom when your cost of
living would at least double. Not like there aren't plenty of nonprofits that
underpay in the bay (every little bit helps). If you can't keep your wife
happy without her not working, don't do the move, period.

There are families of 6 that live in illegal 1-car garage units on the
peninsula who pay >$1k a month for the privilege. If you think that's crazy (I
do) then you have to come up with less-crazy alternatives.

If you want to try hacking it in the bay, recommend you go for an extreme
commute from a place like Antioch or Manteca. You can get otherwise-sane deals
on housing if you're willing to sacrifice an extra hour's drive each way. Your
little ones can have a yard and their own rooms while you slog it out on some
of America's most miserable interstates.

Also kinda crazy, but totally worth considering, move to Las Vegas and commute
via air. Cheap one hour flight each way, low cost of living.

As you "season" in the bay, you may be offered more and more money as you take
on new positions. Eventually even buying a $1+ million house that checks all
the usual boxes will become possible. It takes years for this to happen, but
you may find as your career grows, uprooting the family every year to move 10
minutes closer to work can make things better.

------
dsfyu404ed
The additional money would not buy you an equivalent quality of life. It's
that simple

In addition to the increase in money not being enough to buy you an equivalent
quality of life you will be living in a completely different culture. This
will wear on not only you but your wife. You really don't want to be turning
your life upside down and ditching your connections/support network at this
point in your life.

SV, NYC, and similar are places where you go to make money. They are not
places you go to settle down.

------
apohn
Since TripleByte also has companies in NYC, I'll provide a datapoint if you
are considering NYC instead of the bay area. Our (my spouse and mine) goals
around financial independence are similar to yours. We left the NYC area.

Before I say anything else, one of the major benefits of both NYC and the Bay
Area is that you have a lot of opportunites to climb the career ladder. If
that's what you want, you'll have a lot of opportunity to increase your salary
beyond the range you've stated.

For that salary range I wouldn't recommend the greater NYC area unless there
is a significant bonus and you know you'll get it. Housing becomes cheaper
once you get away from NYC. But home prices are still high and property taxes
are shocking in New Jersey, varying widely from town to town. At one point I
was evaluating NYC/NJ vs the Bay Area, and concluded the property taxes and
various fees (e.g. HOA) made NJ almost as unappealing as the Bay Area. The
housing stock isn't great either.

Everybody says NJ has decent public transit to NYC. That's only if you can
afford a home near a NJ Transit or PATH stop and your office is near a train
station on the same line. Otherwise you might be driving to an NJ Transit
station (and pay $100/month+ for parking), NJ Transit to Path Train/NYC MTA,
then walk. Plus, all those are very crowded at peak times. Somebody I worked
with had car->bus->train->train to get to work.

In NYC it's easy to get trapped in cycle of climbing the job ladder (maybe
taking jobs you hate) just so you can feel like you can accumulate savings and
an emergency fund. I was amazed by how many tech people I met who worked in
banking who hated their jobs and worked way more than they wanted to because
of the pay and a desire to stay in the NYC area.

~~~
tannhauser23
So did you end up leaving the NYC area? Where did you go, roughly speaking.

~~~
apohn
I moved South, somewhere in the Carolinas/Georgia area.

Where I am now there are far fewer tech jobs than NYC, and a lot of the jobs
are in companies that aren't as fancy sounding as what you'd see in NYC. I
moved to a job with a bit of travel, so I didn't take too much of a pay cut.
Some days I wonder if I made the right choice, but I don't worry about my
savings getting destroyed by rent/mortgage+taxes during a job loss.

------
dmode
I am someone who lives with a wife and a kid in the Bay Area. I lived in
single income for a year (was making around 150K as well). I had a small
single family home in East Bay, which I bought at around 600K. Had a tough
commute to the peninsula. It is doable, if you are ready to live in East Bay -
Fremont, Union City, Dublin, Livermore etc. A job in the City proper is
actually better as you can take the BART.

No one mentions the upside of living in the Bay Area: 1\. My pay doubled as
the stock market reached new highs in 3 years 2\. My wife got a job in the
120K range 3\. We sold our home and made 200K profit from it

In 3 years, we secured an extremely comfortable life, with money in the bank,
great experience, in a booming job market, a large house and with all the
amenities of living in the Bay Area.

If I am in your position, I would think where I would be in 3-5 years time.

------
whipoodle
I wouldn't do it if I were you. Working at these companies is nowhere near as
cool as it is marketed to sound. They're just jobs. Your cost of living will
probably go up 3-4x and your salary won't even double.

------
randycupertino
Only do it if your wife will work and you guys can be dual income. Also,
realize a lot of apartments will actively discriminate against renting to
couples with kids, mainly because the buildings here are built terribly with
just wood frames, so if you get downstairs neighbors they will complain about
your kids running around. They won't tell you they're not renting to you
because of your kids, you just won't get selected to rent any units.

------
chaostheory
One important thing: just because you work in SF (or Oakland) it doesn't mean
you need to live there. Check out all the cities with BART access. I've known
some developers to live as far away as Concord and even Livermore for the cost
of living. Of course, the catch is that the commute is guaranteed to be
terrible. But really unless you live and work in the same city (which is a
luxury here), that's the case for everyone here.

------
throwaway14159
Did this calculation a few years back, and living in the Bay Area on one
salary (possibly plus a non-engineer salary) looked financially impossible.
I'd definitely recommend taking a trip out there and looking carefully at what
your life would be like there. Among other things, note that living in a house
there is impossible until/unless you win the IPO lottery.

------
vl
Also: removing wife and kids from extended family and work is a sure way to
the family troubles.

------
kapauldo
If you want a divorce, this is a great idea.

------
coffee
or....

You could consider living somewhere like Berkeley, which is a short (and
direct) 20 minute BART ride into S.F. (if you don't have a remote or local
job).

I'd push hard to get your salary up to ~$165k/year as a senior-level (totally
doable).

After taxes and whatever you throw down for partial Health Care payments
through your job, you can target around $9k/month in your pocket.

1) About 1/3 of your income can go to housing. You can rent a small home in
Berkeley (very nice areas) for $3k to $3.5k/month [1][2] The market is just
now starting to open back up, so it'll only get better.

2) About 1/3 of your income can go to bill's, groceries, car payments, BART
tickets, etc... (~2.5k to 3k)

3) Last 1/3 of your income (~3k) can go directly into your savings account.

It's doable, in very nice areas, with a high quality of life.

That said...

...it all depends on what your personal definition of "high quality of life"
is.

Top rated public schools (9/10 & 10/10 rated), great weather year around,
hiking, biking, sailing, surfing, beaches, skiing, fishing, local farmers
markets (supplied by actual local farms from the central valley), amazing &
unique local Grocery markets [3], stellar independent eateries [4], etc... all
out your back door, most of it walkable [5], most of it bike friendly [6],
and/or very close by.

Big, spacious, modern house with lot's of acreage. Nope.

[1]
[https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/eby/hhh?nh=49&min_price=...](https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/eby/hhh?nh=49&min_price=3000&max_price=3500&availabilityMode=0)

[2] [https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sub/d/beautiful-and-
serene-...](https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sub/d/beautiful-and-
serene-2-bdrm/6260430341.html)

[3] [https://www.yelp.com/biz/monterey-market-
berkeley](https://www.yelp.com/biz/monterey-market-berkeley)

[4] [https://www.yelp.com/biz/gourmet-ghetto-
berkeley](https://www.yelp.com/biz/gourmet-ghetto-berkeley)

[5]
[https://www.cityofberkeley.info/bicyclingandwalkingguides/](https://www.cityofberkeley.info/bicyclingandwalkingguides/)

[6] [http://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/07/11/berkeley-gets-
first-b...](http://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/07/11/berkeley-gets-first-bike-
share-stations/)

~~~
awaythrow101
To be clear, I'm completely fine with a commute. I thought that was obvious
when I said suburbs. Hell, my current commute is ~35 minutes. How is it that
Berkeley is apparently so cheap while being that close?

