

Ticketmaster Sued in Canada for Scalping Tickets to Shows - gscott
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=au_YrzyUh7NY&refer=canada

======
paulgb
I've yet to hear a convincing argument for why performers and organizers
seemingly give away so much money to scalpers. If someone is profiting from
arbitrage of something you sell, wouldn't you raise your prices?

The closest I've come to a reasonable explanation was in the Armchair
Economist, but I remain unconvinced that they wouldn't be better off selling
tickets at a higher price or engaging in some sort of price-targeting.

~~~
fallentimes
I think that's where things will eventually be, but the ticket industry moves
very very slow. For sports, teams often sell tickets below market price for
cash flow purposes. Season ticket holders often have to pay the entire balance
upfront before the season even starts and independent of the team's
performance. Also, if face value goes up too high their can be (and has been)
a fan and media backlash. Also, many stadium agreements are set up so that a
team makes more money from merchandise & concessions than ticket proceeds. In
the NFL, if you don't sell out you run the risk of TV blackout; this also
causes downward pressure on prices.

Concert tickets are a different beast since bands don't acquire win & loss
records, but the public perception of face value still applies. During the
season, prices can vary dramatically based on how good a team is playing. For
example, Lions and Rams tickets we're going for $5 by season end. However,
this almost never happens with bands on tour unless they require a reputation
for sucking live. Also, what Ticketmaster doesn't make very public is that
they often split their "convenience fees" with the artist.

~~~
paulgb
Thanks, that gives some insight. The argument for sports tickets is quite
convincing, I didn't realize all the factors that were involved.

I'm still not sold on the public-backlash argument for performers though.
Couldn't price targeting reduce the public backlash? Eg. charge $50 for a
limited number of tickets 3 months in advance, when the die hard, starving-
college-student fans are ready to buy tickets, and $200 to the investment
banker who buys tickets for his kid at the last minute.

Maybe I'm over-simplifying things, or over-estimating the money the scalpers
are making.

~~~
fallentimes
Agreed. The case is much more clear cut for sports than it is for concerts.
What you're talking about exists in the form of presale passwords:

<http://ticketstumbler.com/blog/presale-passwords-faqs/>

Presale passwords allow fans to gain access to tickets before the public sale.
However, scalpers can pretty easily acquire them and the sales limits aren't
very hard to game. What does tend to happen though is that the investment
banker type (is that reference even valid anymore? :-D) can buy his tickets on
the secondary market at the last minute from TicketsNow, which Ticketmaster
owns, and sometimes the artist receives a cut of those proceeds. To people on
Hacker News, market prices makes a lot of sense, but in practice they scare a
lot of people away. Fixed prices are why Ebay acquired Half.com & Stubhub. And
it's why places that deal with futures or more complex purchasing options like
First Dibz have blown through loads of cash without gaining much traction; the
people behind those sites aren't the target market.

What's also interesting is that artists tend to make more money from tours
than CDs, merchandise, itunes, etc (as the label gets a significantly larger
cut of the latter). So maybe there's some behind the scenes pressure to ensure
sellouts and drive the type of sales that benefit the label most.

One final thought: if an artist becomes really hot (like the Flight of the
Conchords currently) shows can be added...double or tripling supply in a given
metropolitan area. The same thing cannot be done with sports.

------
fallentimes
Between this, the rumored Livenation merger (hi antitrust!) and plummeting
disposable income, Ticketmaster/Ticketsnow is in for a world of hurt.

Ticketmaster has such a terrible user experience, we don't even include them
in our site listings (blog only) although we do include Ticketsnow. What is
sort of funny: out of all the TicketStumbler ticket providers, they've been
the most helpful.

~~~
r7000
> plummeting disposable income

Actually spending on entertainment and culture has tended to do well in
previous downturns - even severe downturns. Its another escape that gets a
boost like alcohol, tobacco, gambling etc.

~~~
fallentimes
In this case, it hasn't been true. Teams are really hurting.

~~~
r7000
According to this anecdotal radio report cultural spending in Europe is
trending up (live performances, exhibitions) while other forms of
discretionary spending (especially eating out) is dropping. The claim was this
was expected and in line with previous downturns. The only U.S. discussion was
during the intro with the old standby of the rise of movie houses and
Hollywood during the depression. There was no discussion of sporting events.

[piece begins at 15:25] <http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/twtw_20090208_11769.mp3>

~~~
fallentimes
NBA, NFL, MLB, NASCAR, Broadway:

[http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2008-10-13-nba...](http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2008-10-13-nba-
economy-layoffs_N.htm)

<http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28141796/>

<http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/08/layoffs-at-mlbcom/>

<http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/1297679.html>

[http://www.ticketnews.com/Broadway-ticket-sales-remain-
slow-...](http://www.ticketnews.com/Broadway-ticket-sales-remain-slow-as-year-
winds-down128171)

The real test for concerts will come in the summer.

------
evdawg
I cannot tell you how happy I am to finally see Ticketmaster under the gun for
this. Over the summer when Radiohead came to Toronto, it was literally seconds
before Ticketmaster was "sold out" and redirecting users to TicketNow for
tickets at over double face value.

I was one of the lucky few to get tickets directly from Radiohead at a pre-
sale a few weeks before.

It is absolutely wrong for Ticketmaster, who has control over probably 95% of
the tickets for every show, to turn around and sell them for double the price.
It's a conflict of interest, and makes some shows prohibitively expensive.
Ticketmaster is scum.

~~~
r7000
Ontario and similar jurisdictions cannot hold back the tide of secondary
ticket markets. The internet prevents it. Consumers who want tickets to sold
out shows will find a way and the web will help them to do it. TicketsNow does
not even come close to dominating the secondary market.

------
RiderOfGiraffes
Hacker News?

~~~
gscott
Yes because 2 YC startups sell tickets. Therefore any legal issues regarding
activity of such is important.

~~~
RiderOfGiraffes
I didn't flag the article as inappropriate because I was asking why it was
relevant. Thank you for taking the time to explain - it wasn't immediately
clear.

