
Student Loan Debt Crisis Is Bankrupting Millennials - TechFinder
https://medium.com/utopiapress/student-loan-debt-crisis-is-bankrupting-millennials-6d753c86305b
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j9461701
My Dad was a janitor, my mom was a secretary, my sister dropped out of high
school and had a baby at 14. Meanwhile I attended college (first person in the
family), double majored in CS and physics, and graduated this past April. I
got a job immediately out of school that paid very well (entry level
programmer salary, which is rich as a sultan to a working class girl), and so
I'm on course to pay back my 30k in student loans in 3 years (barring
promotions / job hopping for more money).

I say all this to make the point that, even as someone who is a poster child
for "college-enabled upward mobility", the article's dread warnings still ring
true to me. I don't feel like I am any smarter or harder working than my
classmates, I just got very, very lucky. I know far too many physics majors
working in retail, many of whom consistently outscored me on tests, to believe
I've somehow "earned" more than they had. The system right now is far too
random, far too viscous. Kids need to understand that "I have a degree" is not
a guarantee of employment, it just increases their chances by X%. It's still
entirely possible they spend their life making <50k a year just by having bad
luck.

This is all made worse by the student loan albatross around their necks, not
only can they not find jobs that pay a comfortable wage - they're getting
hundreds of dollars taken off every paycheck to pay off debt. This line from
the author:

>I just turned 40, and I finally just paid my last student loan payment.

Ouch. I'm sorry. I'm just really sorry.

~~~
zackmorris
Made my last student loan payment at 40 as well. Got my computer engineering
degree in 99 from UIUC and since my parents paid a substantial portion of my
costs, I "only" had about $25,000 in student loans (equivalent to about
$50,000 in today's dollars) with about $350/mo payment ($700/mo today).

Starting salary for an engineer was $60k, so there have been effectively no
raises for the middle class for my generation or younger. Which means whoever
reads this is going to be paying 2-4 times as much as I was, even with a
degree from an affordable state school like I went to.

I also dorked around a lot and basically wasted my 20s on trying to win the
internet lottery.

All that said, I strongly disagree with most assessments of why college is so
expensive. I feel that the real reason is that it coincides with the decline
of the US middle class, starting around 1980 and Reaganomics.

We don't make anything useful anymore. We don't automate the real burdens in
people's lives, things like necessity or health. We just chase get rich
schemes to do as little work as possible. So the rest of the world is eating
our lunch now.

You want to fix the cost of college? Go back to pre-1980. Make it government
funded, build more darn campuses so everyone can go (or at the very least get
trained in a trade), and do a jubilee on all student loan debt effective
immediately. It's how they do it on Star Trek. That's the future. Anything
short of that is a bunch of unamerican hogwash to privatize everything we used
to hold dear and make someone rich on your backs.

Disclaimer: this is one humble opinion from someone who paid his dues and is
sick of the I've got mine mentality pushing the US to the brink of corporate
fascism. I don't want anyone else to squander their potential making rent like
I did.

~~~
Balgair
> ... from someone who paid his dues and is sick of the I've got mine
> mentality pushing the US to the brink...

I'm in agreement. My family, via a lot of hard work and sacrifice, was able to
pay for college for my sibling's and myself. We all had no debt upon
graduation. It was hard, but we managed to do it despite a lot of set-backs.

Though that sacrifice would be 'useless' with a jubilee on loans, I'm all for
it. I've seen too many of my friends suffer under $800/mo debt loads for 12
years now. I'd much rather drink a beer with them on weekends than have them
work their second jobs and drink a beer by myself.

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enriquto
It boggles my mind that a rich and highly civilized country as the USA does
not have free education and healthcare. I'm sure it's a great country but come
on, you guys are really nuts sometimes.

~~~
nugget
Education is free. Credentials are not. We could spend the next two decades
providing everyone with free credentials just in time to realize that the
economy has moved on and they don’t matter any more. This is a more complex
problem than policy makers realize as it’s connected deeply into the
employment market.

~~~
enriquto
> Education is free. Credentials are not.

So, the least expensive part of the process is the only one that you have to
pay an exorbitantly ridiculous amount. I stand by my calling you nuts.

~~~
bargl
K-12 is the least expensive part? I'm willing to be convinced but I don't buy
that. If you look at a State School tuition would have to be 3x more than what
K-12 would cost for parents. I say state school because I feel that's the best
comparison to HS on what it would cost, but again I might be wrong. I just
haven't read anything saying that college is the most $$ part compared to K-12
before.

~~~
danaris
The "least expensive part" he was referring to is, I believe, the piece of
paper.

You can get vast amounts of education for free nowadays, but if you didn't do
it through the approved structure and pay the right people for it, to many
people (particularly those hiring), you don't count as knowing any of it. You
need the piece of paper, even though it's the actual _education_ that costs so
much to create.

~~~
bargl
That would completely change my answer. Thank you for that perspective.

------
bargl
Andrew Yang had a great reason for NOT signing the progressive pledge and why
he didn't support free college for everyone.

His reasoning was 2 fold.

1) His UBI would help college students drastically and be a stimulus for
college age kids.

2) His words, "Only 33% of people go to college" IIRC he also stated that this
would only help 1/3 the population and that we need to promote alternatives to
college instead.

I think there are two more issues with college. Some jobs require college
degrees but really shouldn't (some not all). Some degrees offer little to no
economic benefit to the student but are sold to the student at a premium.

There are some really great reasons why we need to resolve current student
debt, but I think we need to overhaul how we view high school / college for
everyone rather than for 1/3 of the population.

~~~
viraptor
No jobs should require college. They should require skills. College is just an
easy substitute for the recruitment process. (Unless the job requires an
official training certificate that is)

~~~
busymom0
For fields like tech, college/university might not be necessary but for
anything in advanced research or medical fields, you absolutely need to go in
uni and higher studies and be certified. Even in tech, you may not need a
degree but still need to be certified for the field you are in (ccna, ccnp etc
for network admin jobs for example).

~~~
viraptor
You really don't need the network certificates for work. They're just a common
retirement.

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UI_at_80x24
Play dirty right back at them.

If you get a job at Corporation-X your wages can be garnished for failure to
pay a debt. If you own your own business and a your corporation is employed by
Corporation-X your business can't have it's income interfered with.

How you get paid by your corporation is not fit for discussion on this forum.

Note: This applies to Canadian tax/debt law. I don't know how well it works
elsewhere.

If you know a doctor who owns their own practice ask them 'how they do it'.

~~~
whamlastxmas
In the US, I'm pretty sure you couldn't get away with this. Business expenses
are held against income to determine how much tax you pay. There are strict
guidelines on what counts as a business expense versus a personal expense. I
suspect spending a ton on groceries and rent/mortgage for a residential
address would raise some flags and get you audited.

~~~
Gibbon1
There is always the classic income tax dodge.

Incorporate, then hire your wife, mistress, children, and random family
members.

~~~
whamlastxmas
If you're employing people in lower tax brackets that might save a little bit
of money if they funnel it back to you. But I don't generally hear about that
tactic. It would be more relevant if you were wanting to bleed a not for
profit entity where there are legal caps on the types of income executives can
make.

The classic tax dodge is the $1 salary and getting taxed at capital gains
rates instead

~~~
Gibbon1
Back when top marginal rates were 70% And corporate/capital gains taxes were
also high. It was a classic thing.

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swagasaurus-rex
> Student loan debt is generally non-dischargeable in bankruptcy

This is the cause of the absurdly high prices for education. Lenders see a
non-dischargeable loan as zero risk. Their debts will be paid no matter the
circumstances, even when other debts are wiped out in bankruptcy, student
loans will still be paid, or garnished from wages.

Lenders have no reason not to give out as many of these zero risk loans to as
many unqualified and barely educated 18 year olds.

Educational institutions, seeing a surge of both demand and loaned money,
raise their rates.

This process happens year after year, and the demand for colleges is only
increasing, especially with a wealthy foreign population keen on sending their
kids to prestigious American universities.

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RandomInteger4
"Student Loan Debt Crisis is Bankrupting Millenials"

Technically incorrect, since we legally can't file for bankruptcy on this debt
except under very particular circumstances.

------
bobloblaw45
I feel this is one of the biggest obstacles to the free college idea floating
around.

While I hear some millennials say it's a good idea (and maybe it is in the
grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter for this point) I don't see
how it would be in their best interest unless there was some very serious
benefits/perks to millennials that are already in debt or those that spent the
past 10+ years paying it off. They're so far behind now that many put off
starting a family, buying a home, saving for retirement, and all the other
things they should have been doing in their post college years. Now the'll
need to face the next generation workforce of college educated debt free
competition. I mean I absolutely hate to admit this but it's true, I'm going
to be pretty sour if I can finally land a decent job and my soul goal is to
save something up for retirement and everyone else doesn't have that huge debt
monkey on their back to guide their decisions.

~~~
danaris
Disclaimer: I'm personally in the extremely lucky early cohort of millennials
who got a decent job before everything went to shit.

Not a single one of the less lucky millennials I know, either online or in
real life, has given the slightest inkling that they would rather see the
people who come after them suffer as they have suffered, perpetuating the
terrible system, just to make it that tiny bit easier for them to compete.
They'd rather have the rest of their own debt forgiven and just start from
there.

Obviously I can't speak for every debt-ridden millennial out there, but the
overwhelming sentiment I encounter from them when this potential issue comes
up is "Just do it. Make it right."

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devtul
I read some histories that just sound like someone that financed a big and
very specific type of boat, that they couldn't afford to begin with, while
living in a landlocked nation with no lakes and a few small rivers. But it is
not entirely their fault, a lot of people cheered their young naive ass on to
step in that trap.

The silver lining is that they might serve as a good cautionary tale for
others.

------
gmuslera
In a complex and intermixed system, things won't be limited to just
bankrupting millenials. Are those loans being traded as securities or
something like that? What about families, communities, job conditions and even
laws? It will change society, and probably for the worse.

It will be a piece of a far bigger problem that will affect most of the
system.

------
RickJWagner
So many people saying they have degrees and cannot pay the debt used to
acquire it.

Making degrees cheaper to get will not be the answer. That'll just lead to
even more degree holders looking for the elusive job.

Perhaps paying skilled labor / trades better is the right direction.

~~~
thrower123
Skilled labor and the trades are paid very, very well. I could probably make
more money busting ass as a plumber or electrician than I do slinging code.

You do have to actually work though if you want to make money in trades, and
sweat and get dirty. Most college-educated people are alergic to working that
hard, and are looking for white-collar BS jobs that they can push paper
around, go to meetings, feel good about themselves, and never actually do
anything.

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simonebrunozzi
The author of this article, Michael K. Spencer, is a prolific writer on
Medium. Unfortunately I tend to dislike most of his articles, as they usually
contain a lot of mistakes (technical or otherwise). It's a pity, because
otherwise he would be a terrific author.

I wish there were an option on Medium to dislike or downvote an article or an
author. I would certainly do that with him.

------
Willson50
[https://outline.com/c6c7dy](https://outline.com/c6c7dy)

------
sschueller
If only backrupsy would releave these people but somehow the whole chapter 11
thing has turned into some sick modern dept jail.

Soon your dept will be forced to your descendants.

~~~
bufferoverflow
Nobody is going to jail over student debt, that's some nutty hyperbole.

If you could get out of student loans by simply declaring bankruptcy, no sane
institution would give out student loans. A young graduate has little to lose
by declaring bankruptcy.

What we really need to do is teach young people not to waste $100K+ on some
ridiculous degree that will not get them hired.

~~~
toomuchtodo
> If you could get out of student loans by simply declaring bankruptcy, no
> sane institution would give out student loans.

And yet, credit cards (unsecured lines of credit with no recourse in
bankruptcy) are issued continuously to this cohort.

~~~
xboxnolifes
Yes, but at the credit level of a student getting $50,000 in loans, a credit
card company would give a $1,000 limited cards

~~~
toomuchtodo
If you don't give students tens of thousands of dollars in credit, schools
can't charge tens of thousands of dollars per year. Prices rise to capture
available revenue.

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x38iq84n
Nobody was forced into taking a large loan to get a worthless degree that is
useless in the job market. Be glad for these people, may their mistakes and
poor judgement serve as an example so that others and their kids do not make
the same ill-informed decisions.

~~~
freehunter
When I was 15/16 years old I was promised by adults I trusted (teachers,
principal, parents, family members, speakers at my school) that if I got a
college degree I would be guaranteed a good paying job when I got done. At
15/16/17 years old, you are a child and you follow the advice and leadership
of adults. In my senior year of high school, my parents started taking out
loans in my name (called a Parent Plus loan) to pay for my college. Could I
have refused? Yes, but remember I had been promised by every adult that I
needed this to get a job. "A bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma"
I remember being told over and over [1] [2]. If you don't want to work at
McDonalds, you have to get a degree.

So yeah, no one put a gun to my head and forced me to take on student loan
debt. Instead they put poverty to my head and threatened that I would sleep in
my car and work for minimum wage if I didn't.

When you are a _child_ and the adults tell you this is what you need to do for
your future, you listen. What you're doing is blaming _children_ for the bad
advice their parents and mentors gave them.

[1] [https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/catherine-rampell-
th...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/catherine-rampell-the-college-
degree-has-become-the-new-high-school-
degree/2014/09/08/e935b68c-378a-11e4-8601-97ba88884ffd_story.html)

[2] [http://www.msnbc.com/jansing-co/college-degrees-are-
becoming...](http://www.msnbc.com/jansing-co/college-degrees-are-becoming-the-
new-high-sch)

~~~
bargl
Your parents didn't give you bad advice at the time (that is without the
hindsight of current knowledge). At that time it was GREAT advice. The problem
with advice is it only works in hindsight.

I'd suggest anyone going into college right now get a CS degree, but in 20
years that may be automated away.

Who knows. People gave you advice in good faith, they weren't trying to steer
you wrong. It's what they were told was the best thing for their kids. Blaming
parents or kids or even mentors is the wrong thing. It's how everything
entwined that created the situation. No one tried to create it and society
couldn't see it coming.

~~~
rjf72
I'd like to agree with you, but how could "society" not see what would happen
if you increase the percent of college graduates from e.g. 5% to 35% in a
matter of just several decades? And this started to happened about the same
time that we nearly doubled the labor force by first "allowing" and gradually
starting to effectively require that women also work.

Skills are valued for their rarity. Get rid of the rarity, get rid of the
skill's value. The most realistic concern for the value of a CS degree is not
automation, it's other humans. Add far more people pursuing CS degrees,
without a proportional growth in the job market, and you'd see wages and
demand for it plummet.

And there also factors like China in the future. Outsourcing only really
stuttered because the quality of the outsourced products was consistently
poor. But there's no inherent reason this must always be the case. If China
can start being a source that companies can turn to for high quality software
solutions at a low cost, run of the mill software development could go the way
of industrial manufacturing.

~~~
bargl
I think the best way to see how society could not see what would happen is to
watch any TV show that has ever tried to predict the future ever.

Smartphone? Rarely seen but critical to our society.

Twitter? Ha.

Facebook? People actually spoke to one another.

Global warming? Didn't see that coming...

Flying cars? Nope not yet.

Pervasive Nuclear? Nope not that either.

Humans suck at predicting the future. We're so terrible at it. Market crashes,
war, etc. We just have no idea. While what you're saying make sense to an
economist, that's not how society works. The best ideas don't always win out
the most popular ones do. People WANTED their kids to be better off, so they
sent them to success factories that told the parents they'd be better off
because in the past people were better off.

Until they weren't.

EDIT: I'm not saying no one saw this coming. I'm just saying a most people
(society) didn't.

~~~
rjf72
I don't really think any of those were comparable. The situation with the
devaluing of an education is an extremely simple case of supply + demand. When
usable skills are rare, they have a high value - when they're not, they don't.
Again the same thing that makes it easy to predict what the longterm outcome
of 'get [everybody] in computer science' will be. It'd devalue the skill to
the point that it'd be worthless, much the same way that when you 'get
[everybody] a college degree' those degrees, in and of themselves, become
worthless.

Put another way, I can't imagine how anybody could predict _anything_ else
besides exactly what has happened.

