
Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know - meebob
https://www.npr.org/2020/08/27/906423831/bro-this-is-not-the-beowulf-you-think-you-know
======
tptacek
This calls to mind a lot of what McWhorter says about Shakespeare --- that
it's an emperor's new clothes situation, we're only pretending we can
understand 16th century English, but really not getting any of the original
intent because none of the references make sense, and that if we really want
to understand what those works mean, we need to update the language.

If you read interviews Headley has given, you get the impression that she's
read all basically all the translations (apparently Tolkien makes it sound
just like Lord of the Rings), so it's interesting to see where she's taking
it.

~~~
autisticcurio
I sometimes wonder if some of the references to the mythical beasts like fire
breathing dragons are simply, some now extinct species of animal with
embellishments like fire breathing. Lets face it, oral tradition came with a
certain degree of embellishment and we know dinosaurs used to exist, but
what's the chances of finding the remains of an extinct animal if we tried to
look for it? Perhaps the Dodo would be an exception as, iirc, they last lived
on an island somewhere killed by sailors for food, but hopefully you get my
point. I doubt many skeletal remains would be found with Anglo-Saxon remains
because none have been found so far, but do archaeologists looking for Anglo-
Saxon remains ignore animal remains during the dig process? Its not something
I'm familiar with.

~~~
goto11
I think you are messing up the timescales. Beowulf is about a thousand years
old, while dinosaurs lived hundreds of millions of years ago.

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numlocked
I’m no scholar, but have a distinct memory of reading the Heaney translation
of Beowulf perhaps 20 years ago (it was new at the time). I don’t recall any
of the language per se, but have the distinct memory of thinking “this is
extremely badass”. It seems completely reasonable that a more vernacular
translation would be in some meaningful way more accurate (if not precise).
This article brought back some of the adrenaline, and I expect that when I
read this version, it will be exactly as I remember it.

~~~
DC-3
I'm also a huge fan of Heaney's Beowulf. While Headley chooses to
vernacularise the language in the extreme, Heaney took a more sensitive
approach, preserving kennings and searching for Ulster dialect cognates to Old
English words to use in their stead, and always being careful to shun the
aloof Latinate for the earthy Germanic. The consequence of his success is that
the text seems to have sprung forth from the bloodied earth, the capricious
sea, and the smoke-clogged longhouses of the tale.

So while I am always happy to see new editions of Beowulf, I can't help but
feel that Headley's will feel a little trivial by way of its own
unselfconcious anachronism. A wergeld seems an absurd concept when cast in the
language of the iPhone, but when depicted in language that is sympathetic to
its context it feels deeply natural - of the earth, even - a rightful price to
pay as atonement for the shedding of blood, in an age when the sword was as
fair and just as the High Court is today.

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
>I'm the strongest and the boldest,

and the bravest and the best.

Yes: I mean — I may have bathed in

the blood of beasts,

netted five foul ogres at once,

smashed my way into a troll den

and come out swinging, gone

skinny-dipping in a sleeping sea

and made sashimi of some sea monsters.

Anyone who f __ _s with the Geats? Bro,

they have to f_ __with me.

\-----

Absolutely amazing. Captures the ethos of the hero so well.

Sometimes, just like we thought the ancient statues were just stately
unpainted stone, not realizing that they originally were brightly painted, we
give these old stories a kind of formality and stuffiness, when in reality
they were stories told by drunk warriors. This excerpt seems to capture that
original essence. Looking forward to the book being released.

~~~
arethuza
I suspect these were stories meant to be told _to_ drunk warriors.

------
saagarjha
I'm not sure I can understand the strange juxtaposition of "modern" language
with thousand-year-old meter.

~~~
acqq
What is jarring to me are always the anachronisms. E.g. while I can imagine
that some form of short "bro" could have existed earlier, when I read the line
using "sushi" I can't help but remembering that "sushi" didn't exist until
recently. Then I feel cheated, knowing that the original form said something
with the different meaning, and I'm aware that I can't know what it is reading
the "modern" "retelling".

Another anachronism I remember: in another otherwise easy to read translation
of an antique text (as is, originally written around 2000 years ago) the
translator decided to regularly use the word "sadistic" which is constructed
from the name of a real person living less than 300 years ago:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade)

Otherwise, modernizing meter (moving to another, more suitable to the the
language of the new version, or even doing away with it if the goal is just to
retell the story in a more approachable way, with the acceptance that it would
simply be too clumsy in the target language) I consider very acceptable.

~~~
ecdavis
A strange aspect of our written culture is the extent to which documents are
imbued with a sense of permanence from which they cannot easily escape.
Beowulf was told and retold for at least decades - more likely centuries -
before someone decided to write it down. Now, retellings[0] of the story are
called translations, judged by many for their accuracy and historicity.

Sashimi's been around for a long time. "Gravlax" would've been less
alliterative.

[0] It's telling that you put that word in quotes. Stories are things to be
told, aren't they?

~~~
082349872349872
As the cousin thread points out, possible translations are a bit like Helen vs
#nofilter Penelope: they may be either very beautiful or very faithful, but
unless one has been blessed by the gods, that or is exclusive.

Hipsters who prefer early Beoƿulf will enjoy
[http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=cotton_ms_vitel...](http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=cotton_ms_vitellius_a_xv_f132r)

Related:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24293894](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24293894)

[https://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bēowulf](https://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bēowulf)

------
082349872349872
Shots from the updated trailer for the _Iliad_ :

Paris - _fanning golden apple slices off his palm_ Bitch is mine, yo!

Achilles - Hos before bros. _Patroclus hypes_

Athena - Not much slumming with the mortals where r u :eyes::owl:

Hector - _slomo in drifting chariot_

Odysseus - Same thing we do every night, Ajax. Try to sack Troy.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqMs9WsJg2k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqMs9WsJg2k)

~~~
morelisp
Emily Wilson's translation of the _Odyssey_ is similar in goal (flowing
English, modern imagery, "scrap[ing] away all the centuries of verbal and
ideological buildup") though not quite the same tone - Greek theater isn't the
Saxon tavern, after all.

[https://www.emilyrcwilson.com/the-odyssey](https://www.emilyrcwilson.com/the-
odyssey)

~~~
shakna
> "Rosy-fingered dawn, in this new version, takes on many minor variations.
> “When early Dawn revealed her rose-red hands.” “The early Dawn was born; her
> fingers bloomed.” My favorite rendering is “Soon Dawn appeared and touched
> the sky with roses.” It is so wonderfully delicate. It evokes, beautifully,
> the sky’s subtle changes at first light: how the colors phase in mildly,
> almost imperceptibly, the way a piece of white paper might blush if you
> rubbed it with a flower. And it is a perfect example of creative
> translation."

That's... Did the translator completely forget that was meant to be a
euphemism? Dawn's rosey fingers is quite a nice imagery... But Dawn was
conflated with Eos. And well, it's in the name.

~~~
082349872349872
(off topic, please help:

I'm still searching for _sensus tactilis_ pre-dawn... I don't think it was in
the _Georgics_ , but it was from something awfully similar.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24243550](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24243550)

    
    
        Xena: I wake up every morning, ere the dawn is rhododactylous
              Who needs to wait for daylight? I just work by _sensus tactilis_.
    

any ideas?)

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_ZeD_
Was I the only one reading the title and thinking about the Beowulf
cluster[1]?

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_cluster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_cluster)

~~~
drbw
No, but now I'm thinking about the early days of Slashdot, when "imagine a
beowulf cluster of those" was a common in-joke. Along with the obligatory
dozen claiming to be "frist".

~~~
aptwebapps
I actually learned to code on a Beowulf cluster. The first programs I wrote to
completion were on an LP mud that ran on a cluster in the creator's basement.
Not because it was necessary for a mud with never more then ten users at once,
but just because.

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cousin_it
A page comparing many many many translations of Beowulf:
[http://www.paddletrips.net/beowulf/html/journey.html](http://www.paddletrips.net/beowulf/html/journey.html)

One particular prose translation that I like:
[http://oaks.nvg.org/beowulf.html](http://oaks.nvg.org/beowulf.html)

As an aside, I don't understand why people translating works of martial glory
choose rap as the modern equivalent. People who actually fight in wars, from
ancient times to now, tend to talk in "high" language.

~~~
082349872349872
(a) Anglo-saxon poetry was beat-oriented and heavy on alliteration, wordplay,
and external references. Why would rap[1] not be a suitable[2] choice?

(b) "People who actually fight in wars ... have always spoken in a more
dignified[3] way." Pray tell, in which country's military have you served?

[1] it's done more than Milton could: popularised poetry in the hood.

[2] A cousin thread mentions "... an age when the sword was as fair and just
as the High Court is today," which reminds me that the gangsta subgenre is
slightly fonder of popping caps than filing briefs. (Compare OG Sinatra's "My
Way" for commercially successful overclass braggadocio. Or, more recently:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTU2He2BIc0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTU2He2BIc0)
)

[3] Those who prefer their argot middle class might try Nice Wicket Average's
"Straight outta Surrey":
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSflRlHPay4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSflRlHPay4)

