

Ask HN: where's a good place to look for smart contract work? - menloparkbum

I've decided to leave my current job to work on my startup. It turns out working on a startup while you work at another startup doesn't work out, time wise. However, I only have enough money to last through the end of the year. I'd like to bank about $5-$10K more before applications for the winter YC funding cycle are due. I have a few personal connections and about 7 leads since 9 am today, but am trying to collect as many options as I can before making a commitment. Does anyone on HN know of any resources for contract work other than craig's list and dice/elance/odesk ? I'm in San Francisco, so info about any local networking events would also be helpful.<p>I'm looking for something with cool people, but in a decidedly temporary arrangement.
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jon_dahl
I did contract work for 5 years before founding a product company. Most of our
work came from two sources: reputation and relationships. Reputation took
several years to build, so it isn't 6-month solution.

Relationships, on the other hand, can be built quickly. The best relationships
for us were relationships with other developers. We've gotten dozens of good
leads this way, and have passed out dozens to other developers. What
technologies are you going to use? Local user groups for those technologies
can be a great place to start. Figure out where the local momentum is (Ruby?
Python? User Experience? Startups?) and meet people.

~~~
hhm
How do you advertise yourself for contract work? Do you have a one person
company, or you are just a contractor? While both things may in the end mean
more or less the same, their perception might be different and you could be
able to get paid more in the first than in the second case. Or am I wrong?

~~~
jon_dahl
I went from 2 people (myself and a partner) to 8, so I didn't do the
individual thing myself.

In my experience, a single person ("John Smith" or "John Smith Consulting
LLC") isn't at a big disadvantage against a small company (John Smith as sole
member of "Razor Consulting LLC" or whatever). We would often compete with,
and work alongside, individuals. It's all about getting your brand out there.
You want people to hear about and trust your brand - whether it's your name as
an individual, or a company name. But don't confuse people by pushing both. I
actually recommend using your individual name unless you want to grow bigger
than 2 full-time employees. I have several friends who are individual
contractors, and most of them have incorporated under another name. But they
are known by their personal name, not their company name. That's their brand,
so to speak.

~~~
hhm
I'm currently using my name plus a descriptive word (say "Smith Software" or
"Graham Tech"), and if I think about it, what I'm doing most is contract work
myself (along with some consulting). Do you find it advisable?

~~~
jon_dahl
Tell me if this answers your question: if I were you, I would form an LLC
("Smith Software"), but push your personal name ("John Smith") as you network,
look for jobs, introduce yourself, etc. So Smith Software goes on your
contracts, and (maybe?) is your domain name, but you want people to get to
know _you_, not Smith Software. Especially if you're good. "John Smith the
ruby/python/design expert" is a perfectly legitimate way to be known. It's
easier than "Smith Software, the small expert ruby/python/design house", IMO.

I know 10-20 independent programmers and designers in my area, and in every
single case, I think of them by their personal names. I'm sure they all have
some LLC name, but in most cases, I don't know what it is. Even if they put it
on their business card, I'm more likely to refer them to someone as an
individual ("I know this good designer - Mick Jones - you should talk to him")
rather than by a company name ("I know this good design shop - Compelling
Solutions - you should check them out.")

I think this changes when you grow beyond 2 full-time folks. At 2, people can
remember both of your names. But beyond there, they're likely to remember the
company name, plus one of the principles. ("You should check out Compelling
Solutions - talk to Mick Jones.")

At least that's my experience. :)

~~~
hhm
This is great advice, thank you. An only extra question... being a single
person means that I can't do more than one or two development projects at
once, but at many times clients ask me to (and I have to tell them I can't,
I'm already busy, etc). Do you think it's a problem? How do single contractors
handle this?

I guess it's a lot easier if you push yourself as an independent programmer,
as it's reasonable that a single guy is already busy at the time you call
him... but as soon as you introduce a company name I think the expectations
change. So that's an extra reason to follow your advice.

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thomasswift
My advice: Attend networking events, meetups etc.

Tell people you are looking for work, most of my work has come through friends
(which you have seem to done)

Charge what your worth beginning day one, maybe cut your personal friends a
discount, but doing work for next to nothing to build your portfolio is great,
but trying to raise your price afterwards is very very hard.

To answer your original question: check dice.com and craigslist, but dice.com
will be true contract jobs that don't want companies that consult, but
contractor (most of the time) and craiglist will be full of build digg for
10$/hr types of people(maybe they'd hire you on for what your worth but I
doubt it).

~~~
xlnt
How do you know what you're worth?

I've read "post your salary" threads and other things that show up on yc or
programming.reddit, but I still can't really tell.

~~~
thomasswift
My short and fast rule Is charge about 4-6x your hourly salary of doing
equivalent work. You pay more taxes, you are not receiving benefits, and most
of all you are doing difficult work. Of course there are exceptions to this
rule.

If you make $20/hr slinging code. Consulting that be $80/hr. May seem high,
but really it is quite low. The big boys charge $250/hr. I think that rate is
fair for small businesses.

If you need justification for charging a certain fee. Research numbers on how
much it costs to actually hire someone full-time and all the extra costs
associated with it. Time, Interviews, Job board placements, training,
benefits(big costs long haul). If your being hired to do something you know
and pretty much getting going on day one, they should be paying a decent sum
of money for you, because you had already done the legwork, you step in and
work.

You are also temporary to them if the contract ends(a.k.a they fire you), as
employee you get unemployment(extra cost to the company), exit interviews,
more time and money wasted. If you an IC the contract ends, what are you going
to do. Look for the next gig, more time spent with no money coming in.

My favorite pricing quote is the one about the artist, name escapes me. A lady
asks him to paint her caricature of face and he get out a piece of paper,
paints a few lines and she says it's amazing and ask how much, he says 5k or
something. She says thats ridiculous it took you five minutes. He responds no
it took me my whole life.

I'm not saying I'm picasso or monet or whatever, but the work you do today
will be added to your overall experience and knowledge that you will apply to
the jobs of tomorrow, and you should be compensated for that. i also don't
change $1000/min (it be nice) - sorry for rambling

~~~
brianlash
>My favorite pricing quote is the one about the artist, name escapes me.

I've heard that story. It's probably apocryphal, but instructional.

The artist is Picasso (at least in the variation I encountered).

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gexla
You didn't say what sort of contract work.

You are doing a "startup" yet getting into contract work is also a "startup."
They are both businesses and any business takes time to build up to a point
where you can make a living from that business. It also takes time. There will
likely be times when you are freelancing where you don't have enough time or
energy left over at the end of the day to work on your other projects.

Networking is definitely important for freelancing. You have to let people
know what you know and that you are available. Finding someone to work on a
project can be hard and you need to be on the top of the short lists of
candidates when people are looking for help.

Another way to start freelancing is by establishing yourself as a known expert
in niche communities. This takes time and effort but when you get to that
point and people are looking for dev help in that niche then your name will
come up.

~~~
menloparkbum
I should mention that I worked as a contractor for 5 years, so I'm familiar
with how to manage contract-based employment. However, this was on the
opposite coast, and since I've been in the Bay Area, I've been working at
other people's startups. I'm a bit out of the contractor networking loop.

What I'm looking for is some piece of something a startup wants or needs to do
immediately, but doesn't have time.

I'm altering the details on this example so that I'm not breaking an NDA, but
the most promising candidate out of the leads I've received is an online
service that needs a simple desktop based upload/sync application. I'd be
writing the upload/sync app. Stuff like that is what I'm most interested in.

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noodle
look on any of the niche job boards.

authenticjobs.com is a good start, and it has some links to aggregators where
you can spread out your search. also, freelanceswitch.com's job board is
decently good.

they're not all designed for freelance/contract work, but they do have plenty
of postings for it.

~~~
menloparkbum
cool - thanks!

~~~
noodle
no problem, i feel your pain :)

also note that, typically, elance/odesk/guru/etc. isn't worth trolling for
work, because they're dominated by cheap, lower quality labor and project-
based pricing.

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initself
I've found small contract jobs through Dice and jobs.perl.org.

<http://www.dice.com/> <http://jobs.perl.org/>

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prakash
Firstly, congrats!

Try the gigs board on 37 signals: <http://gigs.37signals.com/gigs>

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bprater
If you have cash in reserve until the end of the year, why not get serious and
launch your own product based startup?

With some emphasis in marketing, you could quite easily bank $5k-10k from the
product and be in a good position to show off your project (that is already
making moola!) for winter YC.

~~~
menloparkbum
Because I went broke at a previous startup and am paranoid about having cash
in the bank.

~~~
holygoat
Don't listen to the commenters saying "just go for it" -- having cash in the
bank is important (if you aren't wasting time earning trying to get the work
to do so).

As long as you stay busy, building a buffer is a good thing.

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wensing
If you're a Django person, you probably already know about
<http://www.djangogigs.com>. Some of the opportunities there are short term.

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ucdaz
Check out meetups, web 2.0 parties, and ppl you know within your hacking
community.

