
The Tech Industry Has a Drinking Problem and It Is Hurting Diversity - kcmastrpc
https://kevincrawley.io/posts/tech-industry-drinking-problem/
======
Tehchops
While I will _absolutely_ concede that being born a middle-class white
Caucasian male in the US is an objectively advantageous and generally
privileged situation to be born in to...

You're going to lose me at the notion that I'm somehow exercising "white
privilege" by consuming/offering alcohol at/around/near work functions or
venues.

If the author is already making the reader concede an implicit agreement that
there is an "inclusion/diversity" problem, then I'd argue the problem exists
at a deeper, more fundamental level.

This reeks of selection bias and circular reasoning when you say that things
that occur in a non-diverse environment are immediately perfect examples of
non-diversity because "look at this non-diverse group of people partaking in
$thing".

I'm even fine with saying it's non-inclusive, _except_ that has to cut across
all demographics, including white males. There are plenty of white males
employed in tech who find the idea of socializing/drinking with co-workers
absolutely contrary to what they feel is fun or engaging.

As a thought experiment: let's say all tech companies, from startup to FAANG,
as of today, went completely "dry" for any and all work-hosted functions, as
well the same policy for all corporate offices/locations.

Would diversity get any better? And if not, how can you say it was making it
worse?

~~~
kcmastrpc
> You're going to lose me at the notion that I'm somehow exercising "white
> privilege" by consuming/offering alcohol at/around/near work functions or
> venues.

That wasn't the point of my statement re: privilege. It was more of an
allegory to the fact that I didn't get thrown in jail for some of the really
stupid shit I did in the past.

Let's also consider the social advantage of those who do imbibe with those who
don't in regards to building relationships with superiors at your job.

~~~
Tehchops
> Let's also consider the social advantage of those who do imbibe with those
> who don't in regards to building relationships with superiors at your job.

Ok, but that "advantage", or lack thereof, is not exclusionary only to non-
white, non-males, which was a fundamental premise of the article.

You're shifting gears between:

"alcohol is evidence of, and further exacerbates, a diversity/inclusion issue
stemming from a heavy bias towards white males"

to:

"alcohol is bad for the workplace, regardless of context, because it is
exclusionary and leads to problems and implicit/explicit social and health
consequences"

This post carries a similar theme to many before it: tech worker(who maybe or
maybe not drank in a work-context in the past) gets "woke" about it and
decrees that it's bad.

The line I quoted from your recent comment alludes to what I think is what
most of these articles are truly railing against:

the implicit, unstated social hierarchies that are created in a given
workplace, and the advantages they offer to their members in terms of choice
project assignment, progression, recognition, and overall career satisfaction.

Guess what? Remove drinking from the workplace, and _the exact same thing_
will happen anyways. It may not form around drinking. Or, in all likelihood,
it still will, just unofficially after-hours, which is likely to be even
_more_ exclusionary, because there will be no impetuous for forced inclusion.

We as a species have been building complex social hierarchies for most of our
history. That will always select for individuals who are more "social" versus
ones who are not.

------
ericabiz
After I completed Techstars in 2013, they asked all of us for feedback. My #1
piece of feedback to Techstars was to please stop with alcohol at every event.
I had several reasons, most of which aren't really touched on here, but are
nonetheless important:

1) I can't hear a damn thing or talk at a normal level to investors or mentors
in a bar that is playing loud dance music. (Techstars often held events at
local bars.) It is uncomfortable to sit in a barstool and literally yell about
your business to someone. I can't imagine this is a gender thing. Most of us,
especially introverts, wouldn't be comfortable in that situation.

2) Many people see bars as hookups or pickup spots. The environment is geared
toward that. I was in a committed relationship at the time and I'm now married
(I'm a woman.) I don't want hookups; I'm there to meet investors or mentors.

3) As in above, even at the office, alcohol blurs boundaries and encourages
people to do things they otherwise wouldn't (like yell uncomfortable jokes or
hit on other people.) It's not a good look for those of us who are there to
work.

4) If you don't like alcohol or don't drink, you miss out on the opportunities
to "meet and mingle." I can remember many events I declined because they were
alcohol-focused (wine tastings, for instance.) I strongly feel I missed out on
potential connections to investors and mentors because of this. I now go more
often to these types of events because I feel they further my business, but I
wish I didn't have to.

I am not as concerned with statistics as I am with alienation. It's not just
women or minorities; I've met plenty of straight, white males who don't like
drinking either, or feel pressure to drink more than they otherwise would
thanks to these events. Removing alcohol from these events does us _all_ good.

------
hprotagonist
Neo-puritans are very strange people. I feel like it wouldn't be too difficult
to go find prohibitionist rhetoric from the 1890s that essentially
recapitulates exactly this post.

 _Instead of a bar or keg at the office, consider an exercise room with
equipment that tracks, ranks, and encourages competition._

Ableism! Ageism! and a healthy serving of Hobbsean ruthlessness to boot.
That'll clear up those pesky diversity issues in short order.

~~~
YuriNiyazov
"consider an exercise room with equipment that tracks, ranks, and encourages
competition."

I also loled when I read that. Let's replace one extremely bro-ey activity
with another. Brillant.

~~~
sdinsn
How is exercise a bro-ey activity? Don't project your insecurity on reality.

~~~
hprotagonist
exercise isn't. "I can bench more than you, bruh, and our #maxflex slack
channel that updates from the weight room proves it!" sure is.

------
nulbyte
> 59.8% of respondents who drank in the past 30 days identified as
> White/Caucasian

That's very representative of the country as a whole, wherein white, non-
hispanic people make up approximately 61% of the population.[1] Rather than
supporting the author's point of view, that statistic seems a good apology for
an opposing viewpoint.

> How many of you reading this hang out at crack houses or opium dens? I
> realize this is an extreme example, but I’m being serious...we don’t go to
> these places because we don’t use those substances...

Actually, ...[2]

I believe the author has it backwards. Alcohol use isn't contributing to bad
work environments; bad work environments are contributing to alcohol abuse.

[1]:
[https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/...](https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?src=bkmk)

[2]: [https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/07/25/use-of-illicit-
drugs-...](https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/07/25/use-of-illicit-drugs-
becomes-part-of-silicon-valleys-work-culture/)

------
squirrelicus
> Before we can have a healthy conversation about this, I assume you’ll agree
> that our industry has an inclusion and diversity problem. If this isn’t the
> case, you can stop here; I doubt I’m going to convince you of anything in
> this post.

I guess I have to stop reading there. :/

~~~
yakshaving_jgt
I love the implication that if you don’t agree, you can’t have a healthy
discussion.

I’m also not sure of the aim; if you have no desire to convince those who
don’t initially agree, you’re preaching to the choir. Isn’t the diversity gang
enough of an echo chamber already?

~~~
n4r9
You're constructing a straw man. The post is making an argument for _why_
there's a lack of inclusion. This rests on the assumption that a lack of
inclusion exists. Defending that assumption is left to other discussions,
nevertheless there are many people who already agree with it. If you're not
such a person i.e. you don't agree with the assumption, the post isn't for
you: you have nothing to gain from it.

~~~
squirrelicus
It's possible for there to be no systemic inclusion problem _and_ alcohol
creates inclusion problems.

~~~
alkibiades
i guess i’m not sure what the solution is. are we not supposed to drink? Any
hobby or activity that not everyone participates in has the potential to be
non inclusive. At my last work a lot of people loved camping but i didn’t.
Should i stop them from camping because they might make social bonds that
aren’t available to me?

~~~
n4r9
I think the onus is on the company to pro-actively organise social events
which don't centre on drinking.

~~~
alkibiades
but some people are introverts. so it’s not very inclusive to have any event
as an extrovert would be more likely to go and make connections and introverts
would be discriminated. maybe we should ban all events

~~~
squirrelicus
Clearly the reasonable thing to do is stop trying to be infinitely inclusive.

------
thinkingkong
I'm not sure this is a systematic issue vs a workplace by workplace issue.
Certainly some companies have a lot more of a drink focused culture than
others. Additionally, some teams (lookin' at you, Sales) have the stereotype
of having that kind of environment.

As far as addressing drinking, I think the thing to tackle is being
compassionate and empathetic to all sorts of issues, not just alcohol abuse in
particular. Do you have members on the team that have a disability? Do people
practice a religion that requires quiet space throughout the day? How will you
accommodate those people?

~~~
squirrelicus
I think a key difference is that people are more than capable of doing their
job while differently abled or differently religious. Alcoholics or those who
choose to abuse alcohol in the workplace are not capable of doing their job.

------
0xBA5ED
>Instead of a bar or keg at the office, consider an exercise room with
equipment that tracks, ranks, and encourages competition.

Can you see how your own logic can be applied to this suggestion turning it
into a "systemic inclusion problem" for people who don't want to hang out in
the exercise room or publicly compare their physical abilities with their
coworkers? It's nonsense. People will do what they choose to do and personal
choices will _never_ be equally represented in any population.

~~~
kcmastrpc
You took my sentence out of context, I said you may "CONSIDER" it.

Nonetheless, of course it could be. You could say that video games in an
office isn't being inclusive.

~~~
0xBA5ED
Exactly.

------
noelwelsh
We recently rented an office at a WeWork location. I was first surprised to
find that beer was available on tap, and then that it was limited to four
beers per day---presumably due to abuse in the past. I wasn't actually at that
office, so I can't comment on the atmosphere, but this seems to me to be
encourage a frat-boy / heavy drinking culture. I've seen similar in certain
parts of start-up land. As something who doesn't like alcohol I do find this
off-putting, and if I was looking for a job I would stay away from places that
advertised easy availability of alcohol as a perk.

I don't think this the culture of all of tech. Indeed tech is too big to have
one culture. But it is in my experience the culture of part of it.

------
cirgue
> It is time our industry recognizes that alcohol has no place in healthy,
> diverse, and inclusive environments.

If your working environment has issues with people getting trashed and
behaving unprofessionally at company functions where alcohol is served, I
would posit that the problem will not disappear in the absence of alcohol.

------
cyberfart
> Before I begin, I want to say that I’ve spent around 10 years curating this
> opinion.

I don't know what to make of this. Did it require 10 years to write this
article? Or is it just "I know what I'm talking about, I've spent 10 years
having this opinion"?

~~~
kcmastrpc
It's simply meant to prepare the reader that I've put a lot of thought into
this, and that I have a pretty strong opinion.

If I reflect upon this, it's perhaps to prepare the reader for the idea that
it's going to take a very strong counter-argument for me to change my beliefs
on this matter.

~~~
rhacker
After reading some of the other reactions to your article, I can't help but
feel HN crowd is being quite persnickety today with semantics.

~~~
cyberfart
"I believed in ... for ... years" is not an argument, it provides no facts, it
serves as a tool to psychologically influence the reader.

------
Digit-Al
Are there really companies that have alcohol available in the office? That
seems very odd to me. I am English, which is very much a drinking culture, but
every company I have worked at in the last 20 years has had an explicit policy
on not drinking alcohol during working hours. This doesn't prevent people
having one during their lunch break if they want to, but if you have enough to
be noticeable you're probably going to be in trouble; and drinking in the
office is definitely frowned upon.

~~~
pseudalopex
Beer on tap is common at some kinds of companies. Some only bring it out on
Friday afternoons. Having enough to be noticeable during work hours would
probably get you in trouble.

------
sudosteph
I definitely have worked places where co-workers enjoyed staying late and then
heading to a bar afterwards, and honestly I did feel a bit left out because
drinking at bars held zero appeal to me. Personally, that is more due to my
autism-related aversions to crowds and loud sounds, but knowing that the few
bar experiences I've had usually involve a strange man trying to talk to me
for a romantic reason if I stray away from another man for two minutes... that
really does put the nail in the coffin. It would have been nice if there were
other options offered, but really it's even more optimal for me just to work
somewhere without any expectation of regular post-work socialization and
bonding at all. And working remotely does that for me. I don't feel like I'm
missing out or not "one of the team" any more.

I'm really not bothered by people sharing a beer or two at the office or lunch
though. Nobody gives me a hard time for saying no, as it just means more to go
around for others.

As long as there are good options, with equal career opportunity growth,
available to people who don't prefer cultures where social drinking is the
norm, I think it's not a big deal so long as companies are up front with it. I
do worry that some people may get a gig on a team at a big company that has
that culture though and feel excluded or otherwise be seen as not a team
player for not participating, but that can honestly happen with many different
things (ie, vegans/vegetarians/religious people needing food options, parents
needing kid-friendly schedules) so I don't think not drinking is especially
unique - though it is perhaps very often ignored.

------
renholder
All of these stats look to be from American sources. Did you consider the
overall rest of the world, when you used the all-encompassing statement " _The
Tech Industry Has a Drinking Problem_ "?

If not, then I think that, whilst you might have had the best intentions in
mind, you really miss the mark for actually covering the _whole_ industry.

In other words: How apt are your statistics, anecdotes, and points of view to
be applicable in countries where the drinking age is _far_ lower than in the
states? What is the actual ratio of those countries having alcohol at company
events versus after-work events, coordinated by workers at 'x' company? How
much more or less-likely are those countries to have drinking problems
(statistically, speaking) in their populace?

You seem to ignore this, whilst simultaneously stating that an entire industry
has a problem - using a sample-set from a small portion of its total whole.

I'm not sure if you're being intentionally disingenuous or if this results
from jingosim or if you just haven't considered any of this but it comes
across as askewed American exceptionalism: We have this problem and so, by
that logic, the whole world must.

------
zozbot123
> ...And It Is Hurting Diversity

Is this really the best angle that they could find? One would assume that a
drinking problem - even when confined outside of actual "work" \- would impact
_basic professionalism_ well before diversity. See, e.g. the way that a
widespread "drinking culture" may have contributed to the recently-unearthed
cases of harrassment at top "tech" firms.

~~~
pdpi
AIUI the author is being too clever by half, by using "drinking problem" to
mean "a problem that involves drinking" (the "drinking culture" you alluded
to) rather than the usual meaning "suffers from alcoholism".

------
sparrish
This is especially true of tech conferences. I've stopped attending altogether
mostly due to the drinking 'culture' of the events.

------
bjourne
In my experience, alcohol is mostly served to techies because they aren't very
social while sober. Yes, it is stereotype but I've found it to be 100% true.
:) Even with techies, deep technical discussions are very hard to have because
they are so shy. Many of them needs to be inebriated to dare discussing
whether they prefer hash-based disk indices or tree-based ones.

------
mattnewport
This post doesn't present any evidence that drinking is more of a problem for
the tech industry than any other industry. Purely anecdotally it seems to me
that the service industry (restaurants and bars), medicine, journalism, law
and aviation are all worse.

I don't drink myself and haven't found it to be a problem (although I did
drink in the past).

------
chooseaname
It's not the "tech industry". It's a certain segment of the "tech industry".
The same segment that hires like a fraternity hazing. That segment cultivates
this. That segment _wants_ this. Is that good or bad? I dunno. I don't want
any part of it, but that's my choice.

------
pkaye
The writer needs to be exposed to more varieties of tech companies. I've
worked at quite a few tech companies and never had any pressure to drink. And
even at those few social events, I just ask for a soda or virgin cocktail and
nobody made a fuss.

------
fit2rule
Its not just alcohol. In the last few years I've counted too many startup
CEO's who use speed, mushrooms, LSD and MDMA as if they are standard tools of
the trade. It seems like there was a lull during the early part of the 2000's,
but recently a resurgence in the use of mind-altering drugs in this industry
seems to have occurred.

I fear that there will be a period, up ahead, where it all comes crashing
down. Cybernauts may think they've got everything under control, but in my
opinion this point of view requires a great deal of ignorance of the decades
past, not to mention dire hubris.

~~~
Digit-Al
Let's face it, the tech industry is is not renowned for a lack of hubris.

------
edent
Absolutely true. I drink, but I also commute by car - so that rules out
drinking socially at work.

My recent offices have been good about mixing the mandatory-fun-days between
drinking and dry establishments.

We did have to chat to an enthusiastic social organiser about why a cocktail
mixing class wasn't going to be a great team-building experience with half our
team missing.

And, yes, I've been guilty of lazily organising pizza and beer dev events when
I really should know better. I'd rather have it called out than have people
feel uncomfortable.

------
funkjunky
Christ, what next? Ping pong tables create an inclusivity problem? Music
played in the lobby? Catering? Anything that can conceivably differentiate
individuals is fair game for these inclusivity nuts. People's tastes are
different, what brings people together is going to be different, and people of
some kind or another are going to be left out one way or another. You can't
have diversity and complete inclusivity at the same time, they ultimately
contradict each other.

~~~
yakshaving_jgt
> You can't have diversity and complete inclusivity at the same time, they
> ultimately contradict each other.

That's because the diversity these people care about is only skin-deep.

------
sleepysysadmin
The tech industry's substance abuse issues like drinking or other drugs are a
terrible issue.

This comes from a industry wide occupational burnout issue. Major names like
Cisco, Twitch, or Nvidia have staff who are >50% burnt out.

The lack of diversity has absolutely nothing to do with anything here.

------
nunez
I think the OP is onto something, but I'll argue that the OP is leaning too
heavily on their convictions instead of using facts to make their case.

The first problem I noticed is that they seem to warrant that 4 or 5 drinks
per week is "problem drinking." This is not true. First, the point at which
drinking is a problem varies from person to person[1]; taller and/or heavier
people can drink more than shorter and/or lighter people. Second, the rate at
which one drinks is a important factor that isn't considered in OP's opinion
piece. Me drinking 4 or 5 beers over the course of a weekend will produce a
much different outcome (and a much sadder weekend) than me drinking 4 or 5
beers within an hour (without drinking water in between or after) or even 1
beer per day for the entire work week (which is probably the most telling sign
of problem drinking, though it is a very weak sign).

The next problem is the introduction itself. The author asserts that the
reader is informed of some abstract "diversity and inclusion" problems within
tech and automatically dismisses anyone who thinks differently. (How do you
fix the fact that white males are much more likely to apply for a tech job
than white females or people of color? Is this a symptom or a cause for our
diversity problems? These discussions don't matter to the author, however,
because the author is automatically right and doubts that they can convince
you otherwise. BTW, I generally agree that tech has a diversity problem.)

The last problem that I'll call out here is that the author suggests that
companies install workout facilities or do non-alcoholic activities every
other week instead of installing kegs or going to bars. First, installing
exercise rooms is MUCH MUCH MUCH more expensive than sourcing kegs from your
local brewery. It also increases insurance costs and liabilities (because
people can get seriously hurt if they use the treadmill wrong, for example).
Second, why can't companies just host multiple events instead of banning
drinks for a week (and alienating people who like bars or beers or whiskeys or
whatever)? What's going to stop people from hitting the bar after doing
$non_alcoholic_thing? Third, nobody is holding a gun to anyone's heads telling
them that they have to drink. Bars have non-alcoholic options. Choosing to
drink is a _choice_.

[1] [https://talbottcampus.com/problem-drinking-vs-alcoholism-
wha...](https://talbottcampus.com/problem-drinking-vs-alcoholism-whats-the-
difference/)

------
bischofs
More like "The Drinking Industry has a Tech problem", HeHehe

------
sdinsn
People in all industries tend to drink often.

