
The narcissism epidemic is dead? - wslh
http://mindblog.dericbownds.net/2018/01/the-narcissism-epidemic-is-dead.html
======
perl4ever
If narcissism is something that has penetrated the popular consciousness as
being an "epidemic", then perhaps surveys are showing less narcissism because
people have been trained to answer the survey in a way that minimizes the
recognized markers.

Certain younger people I know seem to be obsessed with the concept of
narcissists being the root of all evil, and defending millennials as a
generation from charges of various faults. It seems weird to me because nobody
I knew talked in this way about Generation X or mental disorders when I was at
a similar age. I suspect the internet and optimized clickbait of reaching some
sort of critical mass that may be interfering with the mental functioning of
people who would otherwise be reasonably sanguine about the world.

The more people worry about narcissism, the more I would expect them to
conceal anything indicative on a survey.

A screed I read on the internet many years ago about narcissism was written by
a guy who self-identified as such, and the overriding impression I got was
that his issue was vast and malignant self-hatred, to the point where I didn't
really believe he was as horrible as he claimed. I was unable to tell whether
he resembled the "canonical" narcissist, whatever that might be. It made me
wonder if a narcissist can be self aware or not, by definition.

I think the use of surveys to define and monitor mental disorders is a morass
of confusion and misunderstandings.

~~~
hoopladler
As a fairly young guy, I think a lot of the fallout over narcissism is really
a kind of sublimated culture shift.

Before about 1975, unemployment was typically under 5%, and underemployment or
precarious employment was far more rare. Social safety nets (for white people,
at least) existed and were strong. University wasn't terribly expensive, and
the chances of getting a job that delivered an acceptable standard of life was
really quite high.

This meant that, with their basic needs essentially met, generations born
before a certain point tended to concern themselves with ideas like self-
growth, fulfillment, and personal goals.

Between 1975 and 2008, those concerns became increasingly displaced by
survival-level thinking, as unemployment ticked steadilly up, and jobs
generally grew more time-consuming, and less well paid, while commodities and
rents of all kinds increased.

I think for a lot of young people, there's a kind of fallacious
misidentification between the concerns of older generations, and narcissism.
To obsess over abstract personal concerns to the point that basic needs are
not met is narcissitic - and if somebody of a generation that went into the
workplace following 2008 obsessed over personal concerns to the degree that
the older generations do, it would absolutely impact their abillity to cater
to their basic needs.

However, because older generations are typically in a good financial
situation, having profited both from the pre-80's social contract, and often,
from its disassembly - it's not at all narcissitic to care about personal
concerns! It's absolutely rational - they aren't going to become homeless if
they decide to go on a buddhist retreat, or engage in a messy divorce, or
start a new career.

Narcissism gets picked out as a culprit since it's a way to both categorically
assert that a different way of life is wrong, and equally, to lay the blame
for the current situation at the feat of our proximate frustrators - the boss,
the mentor, the parent.

~~~
dasil003
> _Before about 1975, unemployment was typically under 5%..._

Between 1945 and 1975 American enjoyed an unprecendented period post-war
prosperity owing to the destruction of the rest of the newly industrialized
world. This was not the case before and will never be the case again.

~~~
hoopladler
I'm not the biggest fan of Keynes, myself. I'm assuming that's what you're
referencing - since of course, the rest of the industrialized world also
enjoyed unprecedented prosperity.

But for my sakes, I honestly think the idea that blowing stuff up just so you
can build them again is a bit more abstract than the question demands. After
the war, many nations, the USA included, produced large and comprehensive
social programs. This undoubtedly wasn't that great for the economy in general
(the US share of global GDP steadilly ticked down for the entire period,
putting an end to a century of rapid growth). It was however, undoubtedly
great for Americans in general.

Between 1975 and today, until a few years ago, American share of world GDP
hasn't gone down all that much, indeed, it's descended less than it did in the
period between 1945 and 1975. The USA is richer as a nation than it has been
at any point in its history. It's simply unwilling to pay for all the New Deal
stuff.

------
abusoufiyan
As with nearly any kind of study, there are many similar ones with opposite
results that makes you kind of realize the whole world can't be explained
through surveys and studies only.

Mapping the scale of the narcissism epidemic: Increases in narcissism
2002–2007 within ethnic groups -
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009265660...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092656608000949)

Egos Inflating Over Time: A Cross-Temporal Meta-Analysis of the Narcissistic
Personality Inventory -
[http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-6494.2008....](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-6494.2008.00507.x/full)

And then there are those who question whether the Narcissistic Personality
Inventory is even a good measure of narcissism at all

Addressing criticisms of the Narcissistic Personality Inventory (NPI). -
[http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-16529-013](http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-16529-013)

~~~
yakitori
A lot of these supposed studies can't be reproduced and are just bunk. It's a
result of the publish or perish busy body model. And most of these studies
show the results that the people want it to show.

If there is an epidemic, it's an epidemic of useless studies.

------
CamTin
It's pretty fun that "leadership" is correlated with "vanity", "narcissism",
and "entitlement". I'm not actually sure what these measure, precisely, but
the graph is good for a laugh.

[http://dericbownds.net/uploaded_images/narc.png](http://dericbownds.net/uploaded_images/narc.png)

------
Bucephalus355
One thing about narcissism is it’s terrible AND ALSO horribly annoying /
pretentious.

I agree with the commenter’s below point that narcissism is definitely not the
root of all evil. I don’t think Germany or Japan qualified as narcissistic
society by any means before and during WWII (where there was lots of
sublimating yourself for the state).

That being said, there is just something sooooo pretentious about narcissism I
am driven to hate it while also being curiously fascinated with it. I
sometimes wonder if I’m part of the problem in that case.

Regardless, this is why I subscribe to these subreddits:

\-
[https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart](https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart)

\- [https://www.reddit.com/r/ihavesex](https://www.reddit.com/r/ihavesex)

~~~
trentmb
I can't help but feel narcissism is a requirement to participate in any
subreddit devoted to making fun of people.

~~~
Bucephalus355
Honestly I can see that / what you mean.

That being said, I think narcissism is like a memento mori with death. It’s
something you need to remind yourself of daily to keep you humble. Those
subreddits can be used for bad / ego-pumping purposes, but I’d like to think
it’s 1). a reminder to be careful what we say and screen it for narcissistic
detachment from reality and 2). a bit of fun in the same vein as late-night
talk-show comedy (which is usually some form of trash-talking whichever ppl
were involved in the events of the day).

------
partycoder
An interesting article about "illusory superiority" (people that have it may
be perceived as narcissistic):
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority)

I think that people that avoid highly difficult and frustrating tasks tend to
overestimate their capabilities, importance, etc.

Happens a lot in software engineering as well. Some people learn important,
but rather mainstream topics like imperative programming and basic OOP and
think they've mastered programming.

------
rapjr9
The Simpson's tv show brought out a lot of narcissism. It was meant to be a
joke to laugh at but people started emulating it which encouraged many to
believe it was ok to be that way.

~~~
paulryanrogers
Can you provide some examples? Any one character in particular?

~~~
rapjr9
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA1RgpYS2IQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA1RgpYS2IQ)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av5kuarKmNA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av5kuarKmNA)

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notadoc
Given the obsession with social media and imaginary internet points, I would
suggest the narcissism epidemic is at all time high.

~~~
m000z0rz
The very first sentence of this very short linked page is "An interesting
piece from Wetzel et al., who find no evidence for a commonly reported
narcissism epidemic over the past 10-20 years, based on the perception that
today’s popular culture encourages individuals to engage in self-inflation"
This is literally the exact kind of no-evidence comment the link is meant to
refute.

------
killbrad
It only takes a couple weeks working in any company that has young employees
to know that 90+% of those employees under 30 think they're the greatest thing
since sliced bread and that all of their amazingness is simply unused and
underpaid.

It's really sad actually because it means in 10 years we are gonna have
significant work depression levels due to children being raised to believe
their reality would be much different than it will turn out.

~~~
jvagner
In the last two years I hired 6 college graduating seniors.

None of them knew how to address an envelope... and only one thought to google
for the answer.

We had to throw out a ton of (customer conference) literature packets because
the labels and stamps were just randomly (and unattractively) slapped on.

~~~
lordCarbonFiber
Truly the height of engineering achievement; addressing letters.

