
Taking the headphone jack off phones is user-hostile and stupid - wtbob
http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/6/21/11991302/iphone-no-headphone-jack-user-hostile-stupid
======
IkmoIkmo
I'd be completely comfortable for replacing it with USB-C. You already have
the port, it's an industry standard, it's de facto open to use for anyone.
It's smaller, both in terms of thickness (which I don't care much about by
now, but I'll grant it's a thing), as well as volume.

What concerns me is that the most popular phone and probably listening device
in the world, will move towards a proprietary sound system, fragmenting the
headphone and speaker market into two worlds. That just sucks, and it feels
like a major nuisance for an entire industry. It's like some worldwide
government just created a law half the world or industry must use one standard
and the other half the other, it's just shit.

Further, tinfoil-hat time, but I think some sense to this fear. A lot of
people have voiced concerns that one can employ all kinds of DRM/licensing
tricks, now that there's full control on the i/o. You can for example only
allow a certain level of bass on headphones that have a license with Apple. I
think these effects will be very limited, but I also think they'll all be tiny
steps in the wrong direction we really don't need.

In short, I'd be fine with a new standard, but not the lightning port, and
have a substantial concern about a minor (imo) probability that a digital io
leads to walled audio gardens.

~~~
shanemhansen
I already use my phone's charging port for charging. I'd find it very annoying
if I couldn't charge and listen to music at the same time (without buying some
sort of USBC hub).

~~~
IkmoIkmo
Is it reasonable to say the vast majority of people simply do not sit next to
a charger with the headphones in, more than once a year? I'd think so. I've
literally never done it myself.

I appreciate there are edge cases and that it's a tricky decision, but getting
5% of a phone's volume/thickness back for a port <5% of people use less than
5% of the time, I think makes sense. (pulling numbers from my ass here but
it's probably not that far off)

Further I think the majority of charge & listen usecases are those where
dongles aren't horrible. (although they'll always suck). i.e., listening to
music while charging in a car, is a specific use case where dropping $25-50 on
a one-time solution is somewhat reasonable for the edgecase user who does that
every single day. Same with a setup at work where you've got a headphone on
and charge because you're a heavy user or forgot to plug it in before bedtime
the night before. These are non-mobile situations in known/safe areas, where
you can just leave the dongle. Which is a bit different from the dongle
experience one has with say a Macbook which is charged during the day, on the
go, in many different locations etc.

Despite the fact I think it makes sense for the majority, I'll grant it's
still a shitty situation for the minority. But even then, I think the
ubiquitous advent of wireless audio is around the corner. We've seen big gains
in quality of connectivity, range, price level, battery, style and comfort.
And we're now seeing some pretty unique innovations too like swiping your
earbud to silence the room. I'm not a big fan yet, but I think it's a very
decent extra solution to some of these issues.

Overal, I'm quite alright, even in favour to see the port get dropped, if it
was usb-c all the way.

~~~
ctrl-j
When I work from home my office calls my cell. So I often have my headset
plugged in and my phone charging.

Wireless headphone tech isn't there yet. There's problems that are going to be
fairly difficult to solve. Problems that won't be solved in the next iPhone.
For instance, again when I'm working from home, my headphones get unplugged
from my computer and plugged into my phone when a call comes in. With wireless
I would have to unpair from my computer, and then pair to my phone.. Not to
mention, for longer calls I'd have to wear my headphones while they're plugged
in? Or what?

All this trouble for a thinner phone? Is the iphone 6s really that fat? I
don't need it any thinner. Do 95% of people need it thinner? It looks like
they are solving a non-problem and introducing new ones. (Or what's really
going on is the whole DRM lobbying thing, and they're just pulling sleight of
hand.)

~~~
xbmcuser
Wireless charging would help with that though as you won't be using the USB or
lightning port for charging. For cars a phone holder with a wireless charging
pad built in would be a good idea. Actually that would work with old cars as
well connect the phone holder with the USB charger and connect the phone using
the auxiliary USB jack

------
markbao
Four opinions, going off of this article and partly in response to
Gruber's[0]:

1\. There was a _functional_ reason that CDs and floppies went out of style:
low capacity and the Internet. What’s the functional reason to get rid of
analog headphones? It’s not quality – analog headphones have excellent sound
quality, and 99% of people won’t be able to tell the difference with ‘digital’
sound, right?

2\. So what happens if I want to charge my phone (e.g. from an external
battery) and listen to headphones at the same time? Do I have to use some sort
of ... dongle? That’s going to get silly.

3\. Wireless headphones are ideal, but the price-to-performance ratio still
sucks. Maybe if in the future we all have excellent wireless headphones, it
might be a good idea to remove the headphone jack and provide a legacy wired
output through the Lightning port, but we're not there yet.

4\. Why do this in an era of declining iPhone sales growth?

Admittedly, analog headphone jacks _will_ go away at some point, but I hope
it's not before we have an elegant solution to these problems – like wireless
headphones, perhaps.

[0]
[https://daringfireball.net/2016/06/headphone_jacks_are_the_n...](https://daringfireball.net/2016/06/headphone_jacks_are_the_new_floppy_drives)

~~~
riprowan
> What’s the functional reason to get rid of analog headphones? It’s not
> quality – analog headphones have excellent sound quality, and 99% of people
> won’t be able to tell the difference with ‘digital’ sound, right?

You have it backward - analog headphones are superior, generally speaking.

The signal chain is:

digital source > D/A converter > amplifier > transducer (speaker / headphone)

"Digital headphones" simply move the D/A converter, amplifier, and transducer
into the headphone package.

In almost all cases, the higher-quality D/A converter and amplifier will be
ones not crammed into your headphones; and the higher-quality transducers are
not the ones packaged with a cheap DAC and low-power amplifier into your
earbuds. The same holds true for speakers (exception being high-quality
powered loudspeakers, still, keep the DACs out of the speakers).

And don't get me started about Bluetooth....

~~~
tzs
I think it makes more sense to put the D/A and amp in the headphones. If you
want a particular quality level of sound, you need a particular quality level
D/A, amp, and transducer. If these are all in the headphones then you choose
your quality level by choosing your headphones. If you use your headphones
with more than one device you get your chosen quality level on all of those
devices.

With the D/A and amp in the device then your quality level can vary from
device to device depending on the D/A and amp quality of those devices. If you
want higher quality you not only need to get high quality headphones, you also
have to get high quality devices.

Since device makers are going to tend to put their best D/As and amps on their
higher end devices those who want higher audio quality will have to be higher
end devices even if they don't need most of the features those higher end
devices offer.

With the D/A and amp in the headphones they can buy phones and tablets and
such that just do what they need and no more, which should save them some
money (money which can go toward one set of headphones with a top notch D/A
and amp).

~~~
riprowan
> If you use your headphones with more than one device you get your chosen
> quality level on all of those devices.

What if you buy speakers? Now you need a different DAC for them. If you have a
good DAC in source device you have no problem to begin with.

Having said that I'll retract my previous statement in the instance that the
system is able to stream lossless digital audio to the headphones. In that
case putting the DAC in the headphones could be used to actually deliver high
quality wireless audio.

Past that, wired will "always" sound better than wireless with lossy
compression (ie bluetooth).

Past that, the best DACs and headphone amps will be component. The worst ones
are likely to be powered by whatever tiny battery powers the wireless
headphones.

I'm just pointing out, this isn't about quality - if you want quality, you'll
be using wired headphones. Lossless wireless is a nice idea that would justify
DACs and amps in the cans, it just probably won't improve sound quality, just
cost and troubles.

A decade or so ago Roland tried to convince the pro audio world that it needed
"digital speakers." It was a dumb idea then, it's still a dumb idea, and
that's what I hear when I hear "digital headphones."

------
bsimpson
John Gruber's response
([http://daringfireball.net/2016/06/headphone_jacks_are_the_ne...](http://daringfireball.net/2016/06/headphone_jacks_are_the_new_floppy_drives)
):

> Should the analog headphone jack remain on our devices forever? If you think
> so, you can stop reading.

What's the advantage to removing the headphone jack? Is the jack some sort of
bottleneck to sound quality that nobody noticed until now? I really don't see
a benefit in removing the headphone jack, now or anytime in the foreseeable
future.

~~~
elthran
I think the argument that is made is that it's stopping phones becoming
thinner - which looking at the size of the jack on my Nexus 5X, I can believe.

However, personally, I'll live with a thicker phone if it means I can have a
larger capacity battery, let alone a 3.5mm jack

~~~
creshal
The whole discussion is based on the dishonest claim that it's either 3.5mm or
no analog.

We _already_ have a standardized 2.5mm jack to replace the 3.5mm one in space-
constrained environments (just like 6.35mm is still around for hifi setups).

Why is everyone pretending we need to ditch analog audio completely for
smaller phones when we can just start using 2.5mm (again!)?

~~~
thirdsun
If we do that we might as well use a lightning to 3.5 jack-adapter since audio
equipment and headphones with 2.5 jack are very rare.

I'm all for keeping the jack output, but using a 2.5 one doesn't solve the
problem.

~~~
prodmerc
It solves it for the thinness problem. Which is stupid imo, cause why not just
shove more battery in that millimeter (I thought the RAZR Maxx was gonna be
revolutionary, no one cared apparently), but whatever. 2.5->3.5mm adapters are
small and cheap...

~~~
marcosdumay
Well, I for one do not care enough about battery life to pay the huge bonus
the Maxx was selling for when I last brought a Motorolla phone (what I have no
plans of doing again).

I'd pay for more battery life, but the bonus was just not worth it. It was
easily twice as expensive as the phone I brought, with similar specs.
Batteries last for a couple of days already, some more days are just not that
big a differential.

------
Navarr
I don't think abandoning the headphone jack is a bad idea.

I think abandoning it for _lightning_ is a bad idea.

Is apple so desperate for hardware money that there is not a single "open"
connector on the iPhone?

Why Lightning as opposed to USB-C? Why make it so that people need a
completely different set of headphones just for apple devices? (Bluetooth not
withstanding)

~~~
floatrock
> Why Lightning as opposed to USB-C?

Lightning is not a D-shaped so you avoid the "oh I put it in upside down, no
wait, I was right the first time."

In that respect, it is the superior design. For power and data. For
headphones, I want the ability to charge and listen to something at the same
time (eg working at my desk, going on long trips in a car that's more than 2
years old, etc)

~~~
aianus
> Lightning is not a D-shaped so you avoid the "oh I put it in upside down, no
> wait, I was right the first time."

What? USB-C is reversible:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_Type-C](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_Type-C)

------
jwebb99
I don't understand this push to get rid of the analogue headphone jack.

It's a solution in search of a problem--like removing physical buttons from
the Kindle...the alternative (touch screen page turns) is more high-tech, but
not as pleasant.

I'm sure audophiles would appreciate a digital interface for their headphones,
but everyone else is perfectly content to use cheap $5 earbuds for their
highly compressed audio files.

Yet, we're now supposed to believe that the general public will enjoy paying a
premium for new gear that replaces their cheap and perfectly functional
headphones?

Just because a technology is old and low tech doesn't mean it's antiquated.

~~~
smt88
> _It 's a solution in search of a problem_

It does solve a problem. It solves the problem of Apple having less money than
it wants to have. It just doesn't solve a _consumer_ problem.

------
adrenalinelol
You aren't forced to buy a new iPhone, better yet the one you have probably
doesn't really need to be upgraded at all. Apple will understand you're
displeasure if you vote w/your wallet; they won't care about your displeasure
if you tweet them or complain in the comments section.

~~~
treehau5
You aren't forced, just coercively "suggested" into it, via updates pushed out
by the carrier that inevitably make your phone run slower than a Celeron
laptop from the early 2000s

~~~
rayiner
You don't have to upgrade your iOS.

~~~
dceddia
It's getting harder and harder to avoid, though.

Every single day, my iPhone pops up a box asking if I want to upgrade to the
latest 9.whatever. It does this in the morning, when I'm tired... or at other
seemingly-random times of the day.

It offers 3 options: "Install Now", "Install Tonight", and "Ask me Later".
There is no "Stop asking me" option. One of these days I will slip up and hit
Install Now, and probably lose the use of my phone for the next hour.

------
fullphaser
I don't know this seems to be missing the most basic question I have.

What If I want to plug in my phone and listen to music at the same time? Am I
going to need another adapter for this?

How does this not violate the

Telecommunications Act Section 255 Accessibility Guidelines

§1193.43 Output, display, and control functions.

(g) Availability of audio cutoff. Where a product delivers audio output
through an external speaker, provide an industry standard connector for
headphones or personal listening devices (e.g., phone-like handset or earcup)
which cuts off the speaker(s) when used.

?

It's bad enough the Gym I go to has a bunch of proprietary Lightning
connectors and my phone is obviously MicroUSB, I'd hate to not have the right
headphones for that same gym equipment.

------
stuaxo
I've been needing to replace my phone for a while, and been holding out for an
iphone 7.

If it doesn't have a headphone socket I will just get something else.

~~~
doktrin
Ditto. I've been using Android since my iPhone 4s shattered, and was thinking
about moving back to iOS - if they remove the headphone jack there's no way
that's happening.

------
xivzgrev
"Raise your hand if the thing you wanted most from your next phone was either
fewer ports or more dongles.

I didn’t think so. You wanted better battery life, didn’t you? Everyone just
wants better battery life."

 __raises hand to second point __

Show me a phone battery that lasts a week between charges, and I shall show
you my wallet

~~~
rikkus
[http://webcusp.com/ulefone-joins-the-6200-mah-battery-
club-w...](http://webcusp.com/ulefone-joins-the-6200-mah-battery-club-with-
ulefone-power/)

Might not be a whole week, but I'm assuming you'll be buying one?

~~~
CaptSpify
I'm not who you are replying to but...

If it meets my other requirements (that article seems to be short on details),
then yes, I absolutely will buy it.

Unfortunately, buying phones isn't like buying a laptop. I can't choose to the
bigger battery option, while leaving all the other specs the same.

~~~
rikkus
I was hinting at the problem with the claim that we'd all buy phones with
large batteries if they existed. You pointed at the actual problem: Leaving
all the other specs the same. Unfortunately, currently the phones with big
batteries aren't simply upgraded versions of the top-end phones, so if you
want a big battery, you have to pick something less... attractive.

The fact people aren't buying these big battery phones is pointed to as
evidence that they're not actually desired, but I would contend that until we
see a current flagship iPhone with an option for an identical phone but a
larger battery, we're comparing apples (sorry) to oranges.

------
rayiner
I'm looking forward to getting rid of the headphone jack. I'm looking forward
to getting a MacBook Pro with the MacBook low-travel keyboard. I'd even be
fine with a MacBook Pro with a single USB-C port!

One thing Apple gets is that you don't need to constrain your design to
appease small minorities of users. I bet 99.9% of people only ever plug in the
stock earbuds or a pair of Beats they bought at the Apple Store. So why should
Apple waste logic board space on a headphone jack?

~~~
Godel_unicode
Have you never been on an airplane? Bose on virtually every head, because
their noise cancelling is the best (and protected by patent). Look at all the
work Bose and Beats put in to fighting each other for endorsement and
"official headphones of..." deals.

This is about giving Beats a leg up on Bose, or at least stealing revenue in
licensing or dongles.

~~~
Grishnakh
I have no problem with that. If those Bose users really value their Bose
headphones so much, then they won't buy a new iPhone that doesn't work with
them.

Apple only gets away with this behavior because countless sheep happily pay
them for it.

~~~
tptacek
I'm sure there's a log somewhere on the Internet of a message board where
people called Apple customers "sheep" when they got rid of the 3.5" floppy
drive.

------
dilap
i just dont get it -- whats the problem with the old analog headphone jack? it
works perfectly for me. wheres the benefit in ditching it?

~~~
DougWebb
Apple's reasoning is that the problem with the old analog headphone jack is
that it won't work with all of the new lightning-based headphones that will be
coming out soon.

/sarcasm

~~~
smt88
I'm not sure why you tagged that as sarcasm because it's 100% true. They're
creating a market that didn't exist, and they'll be the ones
licensing/manufacturing the products.

------
awinder
Really think phasing this in might have been the better play (ship lightning
headphones, keep the port for backwards compatibility) but that's not how
apple rolls. They make user-hostile decisions all the time but the track
record of not getting burned too deeply probably makes this an easier decision
from their eyes. The aux port is super ubiquitous though and a lot of buy-in
is already there, so if ever they're going to burned by one of these decisions
now would be the time.

------
campezzi
I would normally agree, but Apple has a good track record of yanking out
things that were considered crucial and turned out to be relics from the past
in desperate need of innovation (or replacement). My optimistic prediction:
the increased demand for wireless headphones will drive manufacturers to
constantly improve their products and drop prices to remain competitive - two
years from now, we won't even remember the day our phones had a headphone
jack.

~~~
sametmax
Oh we will. Because the people listening the most to music are musician, and
they entire stack is linked by jacks. So they will carry adapters everywhere,
one for thunderbolt, one for usb-c, and hate it.

I know I will, because I won't buy a new headphone in the next 2 hears, mine
being very expensive.

That doesn't mean I think it's a bad move. The thunderbolt migration was a
good move. Removing the floppy and the DVD player is a good move. And removing
the jack it probably one.

I actually look forward for the day where my phone, laptop and flatscreen only
have USB-C port as input and ouput.

But it will be annoying for a while, and way more than 2 years.

Espacially since wireless headphones are a f*ing pain to use.

------
PakG1
I'm just curious about how I'd charge my iPhone using a portable power bank
while on the go if my Lightning port is occupied with my earbuds. Getting
those extra battery pack cases is a nuisance, unnecessarily increases the
phone's size. A portable power bank is much more flexible. Plug it in when I
need it, keep it in my pocket if I'm on the go.

I know that wireless charging is on the table, but how would that work as I'm
walking on the sidewalk? Would it stay flush with the iPhone via a case? If
so, doesn't that go back to how a battery pack case makes the phone
unnecessarily large? Or do I put it on the phone only when necessary? If I put
it on the phone only when necessary, do I take my preferred case off whenever
I need to charge on the go?

Or do I buy some sort of Lightning Y-cable to make this work?

This is the one question I want answered.

Or maybe Bluetooth earphones will have good enough quality and battery life
for none of it to matter. Who knows?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
I remember hearing talk of a "charge-through" Lightning cable. Presumably that
would be the cheapest option.

------
Dotnaught
Mobile phones in general are user-hostile.

~~~
imtringued
Mobile games are also user-hostile...

------
mancerayder
A lot of commenters have said what's needed to be said about potential
fragmentation in the market, the annoying example of the office 'hey, got any
more of those apple dongles for [video,USB to ethernet, you name it]' issues
that any Corp IT department will moan about.

But here's my minor nitpick. USB-C is loosey-goosey. I slightly tickle the
cable and it falls out. 3.5mm has a snap to it. But also the 3.5mm is a lot
smaller on my 5X than the USB-C.

I have to admit I'm a bit skeptical of the technical merits, and the analogies
to floppy disks drives going obsolete. The analogies don't seem to apply.

------
smt88
Let's assume for a minute that this isn't a naked attempt at making more money
off of accessories.

The post-Jobs Apple (or maybe even Jobs himself) needs to learn that "less" is
not always "simpler" and "combining it into one thing" is not always
"simpler".

"Simple" also has to factor in history. If we had all spent decades using
devices with a single port for power and audio, then this might make sense.

As far as ugly goes, the ports are pretty well-hidden on phones now. Slim? Not
sure shaving 1mm off the phone is going to make as much difference as removing
a major port.

------
jackgavigan
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that if Apple _do_ decide to ditch the 3.5mm
jack, they'll replace it with another (presumably thinner) analog connector
(e.g. [http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/09/22/apple-prepares-
for...](http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/09/22/apple-prepares-for-thinner-
smartphones-with-slim-headphone-plug-patent)).

------
mschuster91
The only reason why the 3.5mm TRRS needs to die is the vile hack that has been
done to the mike channel to use it for control button commands - which are not
standardized between anyone, actually.

But I am afraid that the accessory/phone/speaker industries plainly want to do
one thing: make more money. Given that you can get a relatively good pair of
in-ears for <€25, and with USB-C you can sell it for €50+, just because it has
active circuitry...

------
Zigurd
In principle this is good.

In principle, the dac and amp should be paired with the transducers. The
longer the digital path, the better.

If you have high-end analog headphones, you might already have a headphone
amp. Now a headphone amp will have digital inputs.

BUT this opens the door to various limitations imposed by content publishers.
That so many people are so opposed to usb c audio, is a damning indictment of
the content publishing industry's untrustworthiness.

------
alexnewman
I lose my earphone regularly and replace them with 15$ headphones I can get at
the drugstore. I guess that means I'm getting off the iPhone .

~~~
StavrosK
$15? Jeez, for $20 you can get the Xiaomi Piston, which is great. Otherwise,
just buy ten $2 buds from dx.com.

~~~
Grishnakh
This is a great example of the absolutely terrible moderation here. This is a
very good comment, pointing out how someone can either pay about the same
money and get a much higher-quality product, or save a bunch of money by going
to a different vendor (dx.com) and buying in bulk (since the OP admits he
loses his headphones frequently). Personally I'd be happy if someone quickly
pointed out how I could save 87% on something I buy regularly.

------
calgoo
Does anyone else think its time to move away from Bluetooth and start over
with a new wireless protocol? No network or serial or other protocols, just
good full duplex high quality audio (with encryption and authentication). It
just seams that we are having too many issues with the Bluetooth protocol and
everything around it. Maybe a fresh start would be good?

------
6stringmerc
When I see Pro and Pro-sumer level audio equipment move away from 3.5mm and
1/4" jacks to...whatever...then I'll start paying attention. Otherwise the
downstream is already suspect quality (earbuds, variable bitrate streaming,
high-noise environments, etc) so whatever cable or wireless connection
consumers prefer is kinda sorta an afterthought to me.

------
walterbell
This would also destroy customer investments in TRRS video microphones with a
3.5 mm headphone passthrough for monitoring, e.g.
[http://www.rode.com/microphones/videomicme](http://www.rode.com/microphones/videomicme)

------
ninedays
Changing any connector you had in place for a decade or more is user-hostile
and stupid and yet it's been done for decades. Don't worry, we'll all be fine.

------
Bombthecat
I'm only using Bluetooth. So I don't care what port they use.

And I think more and more people will move to Bluetooth.

------
tilect1
This is the kind of things that Apple likes to do which is why I don't buy
Apple Products...

------
return0
I for one believe apple's users deserve better than a decades-old, ugly design
just because everyone else tolerates it.

------
ericlamb89
it's going to be fine guys

------
JoeAltmaier
Folks buy new headphones for their phone all the time. Just get the right one.

Headphones with wires fail all the time, so wireless is arguable better for
most folks most of the time. The arguments about sound failures are cherry-
picked to ignore that. Also phones are compromised by every hole in the case
(water, dirt, static etc). So now there will be fewer catastrophic failures.

And now you can walk with your phone in your pants pocket or purse (or
anywhere), without a wire dangling!

{edit: explain}

~~~
rufius
And yet I've got three pair of $300 headphones in my house between my wife and
I, two of which are 6+ years old. If you take care of high quality headphones
they will last quite along time. Wire wears out? Replace it. Ear pads lost
their shape? Replace them.

So yaaaay dongles? Which that's even more fun because if I'm listening music
for any length of time, there's a portable amp in between the phone and my
headphones.

~~~
prof_hobart
>Wire wears out? Replace it.

Is there any reason why a replacement wire with a lightning connection on one
end wouldn't be possible?

~~~
rufius
You'd need the electronics somewhere in the headphone to convert the digital
signal to an analog one. The pair of headphones I use the most (B&W p5) is
actually exceedingly easy to replace the wire on. B&W also happens to have a
very close relationship with Apple... I wouldn't be surprised to see them make
wore with the integrated conversion from digital to analog.

That said, the other two pair in the house are studio monitor headphones and
replacing the wire is non-trivial but supported.

~~~
prof_hobart
Why? There's plenty of rumours that Apple will launch a lightning -> 3.5 mm
female for existing headphones to plug into. If they're doing that, there's
nothing to stop them creating a lightning -> 3.5 mm male to plug into these
kinds of headphone.

