
De-Muslimization: Flying while Muslim after the travel ban - hownottowrite
https://thebaffler.com/blog/demuslimization-zakaria
======
chuhnk
Is anyone in this thread muslim? Just curious.

I am muslim. Travelling to the US looks very different since 9/11\. I was born
in the UK, grew up here, scottish accent, fair skin, british passport, work in
tech. I still get "randomly selected" every time I travel to the US. Every so
often when I've landed somewhere I'll be asked to wait in some immigration
section for 1-2 hours, while they do God knows what. I say nothing. I keep my
mouth shut. I wait for them to do their checks and I go about my business.
Travelling to the US is a pretty terrible experience if you're muslim. I make
sure to appear as non-muslim as possible whenever I'm travelling there.

Note: I have no plans to travel to the US while Trump is president.

~~~
HalfwayToDice
_" I have no plans to travel to the US while Trump is president."_

Statements like this baffle me. Literally no-one in any position of authority
cares if an individual doesn't want to come to the USA.

Also, if you exclude the USA for its border policies then you also have to
exclude the majority of countries in the world, most of which have stricter
controls, especially in Muslim countries. You are basically restricting
yourself to Europe.

~~~
ciconia
> Statements like this baffle me.

I think it's hard for someone who's not muslim to understand how toxic the
current situation feels for muslim people. Would you say the same if a black
man told you he'd rather cross to the other side of the street if he sees a
policeman walking towards him?

~~~
HalfwayToDice
My comment was about how people assign themselves a self-importance that is
meaningless in the the grand scheme of things. Not sure why you are talking
about race or religion.

~~~
hhandoko
I'm not sure why you attribute this to self-importance. It's a real risk and a
fair concern. USA border and immigration officers sounds hostile and
antagonising from the stories I heard on Twitter (over the course of the past
week).

It will take me close to 24 hours to reach American soil. Depending on my
luck, I might either:

a) pass without issue, or

b) hand over my phone and passwords and/or complete CS puzzles (which may also
include period of detainment)

They can turn me back for any reasons and I would have lost thousands of
dollars: if my answers were unsatisfactory, if there were some prejudice
against my look, or even if the officer(s) were having a bad day.

------
altendo
In 2014 I traveled to Ghana for a friend's wedding there. The day I flew back,
I had to go through a second, thorough security checkpoint at the gate before
I could hope to board my plane. I didn't have anything to worry about - I'm
considered one of the "'real' Americans" that the OP mentions - but I was
still struck by what sort of impression this might leave on others coming to
the United States with me. Namely, I thought that it sent the message that the
US, before even receiving visitors, was saying "I don't trust you".

There is always that balance between security and openness; I don't deny that
it's difficult to manage. Let's not pretend, however, that people aren't
affected by xenophobic rhetoric. They are. What message does it send to actual
Americans citizens like the OP when we lambaste them for their religion? Is
that who we are as Americans, those who spread fear to those who don't look or
act "real"?

I'm not liking where this country is going.

~~~
Klathmon
I'm just so shocked by how... normal it's gotten.

When I was growing up, I was taught that you shouldn't ever think differently
of someone because of their skin color, their ethnicity, or their religion.
Obviously you should always strive to never judge a person by any one thing,
but those 3 were practically beat into me as being something you just don't
do. So much so that we had laws against it.

When I first started hearing the term "Muslim ban" my jaw hit the floor. I
reacted the same way I would if someone proposed a "Nigger ban". It just
sounded so horribly wrong and misguided and awful. Like every fiber of my
being was screaming that this is such a terrible awful thing, but nobody else
seemed to be reacting to it.

In my mind, this country was built on an openness to all religions. And I'm
just so shocked to see that such a large number of people would not only
disagree with that, but advocate for the opposite!

~~~
Consultant32452
I don't support the so-called "Muslim ban" either, but it's worth
acknowledging that anyone even calling it a "Muslim ban," including the POTUS,
is just doing so to get a reaction out of people. And it worked. How about
calling it a ban on countries we happen to be bombing right now? That headline
isn't quite as salacious, but is more accurate than calling it a Muslim ban.
We bombed I think 5 of the 7 countries in the ban within the last year.

The fact that people seem more upset about stopping some people at the border
than they are about dropping cluster bombs on them in their home country is
really puzzling to me.

~~~
ewzimm
To use a tech analogy, this is basically the same situation that comes up with
rogue certificate authorities. Security is based on trust, and if browser
vendors discover that a certificate authority is not verifying the identity of
the parties to which it issues certificates, that certificate authority is
blocked at least until better validation procedures can be established.

The reason cited for this travel ban is that these countries either have no
control over who gets an ID or actively sponsor terrorism. International
travel is based on the idea that we trust other countries to validate the
identity of travellers. If we know for certain the the government has no
control over identity verification and that most passports are obtained from
the black market, it seems reasonable to issue a temporary halt while we
establish a trustworthy system for verification.

~~~
Consultant32452
I agree that's a genuine and reasonable concern, but it's not unique to these
7 countries. We're only citing that reason because of the other contextual
things going on.

~~~
ewzimm
I'm mentioning it because it was explicitly stated by the White House as the
justification for temporary travel ban. They also said that Muslims as well as
members of other religions who were at risk of religious persecution because
they belonged to a minority religious group would have special considerations
(it's often unreported that Islam is not a monolithic religion and not only
Christians, but members of competing sects are often executed for their
beliefs).

These countries were excluded from relaxing visa requirements under the Obama
administration because of documented concerns about their identity
verification processes. In Somalia, for example, the government esentially has
no control and can't leave the capital city without risking death.

~~~
alphabettsy
Yes, all of these things are known, but it really doesn't square with the
rhetorical from the campaign or the fact that at current and previously there
was no such "ban" and there have been no issues warranting one.

~~~
Consultant32452
Again, this discussion is missing the forest for the trees. Justification for
this travel ban should be largely irrelevant compared to the justification for
dropping so many bombs in Syria we ran out of bombs. In the context of US
foreign policy, this ban should be 2nd or 3rd page news.

~~~
alphabettsy
I understand what you're saying, but it should be possible to have a
discussion about it right? We don't have to ignore one thing to see another.

Just because we're bombing Syria doesn't mean we should ignore bad policy at
home.

~~~
Consultant32452
The house is on fire but everyone is worried about the fact that we left the
front door unlocked. This is called manufactured consent. They get everyone
riled up about this one bad policy that stops some brown Muslim people from
traveling so they can happily continue the decade and a half long slaughter of
millions of brown Muslim people right out in the open. Trump's mean tweets or
random crappy policy is the dog being wagged.

------
carlmcqueen
My father's job included a lot of travel, so I've traveled through airports
and out of the country for more than 30 years.

The humanity from travel has been stripped from all of us, in spite of this I
have the deepest sympathy for the writer of this article because while my
humanity feels ignored while I travel due to corporations choices of how we
are to be treated on their planes I am still in the "real american" category
she* spoke of.

The greatest of my fears are having to sit next to someone who needs as much
of the small provided seat I need causing us to have to "suck in" our
shoulders so they only sort of lean on each other.

I don't have any text conversations on my phones or emails that would flag
anything but in the same breath, I've never had to think or worry about that
either.

edit: fixed gender issues.

~~~
farnsworth
I downloaded a bunch of issues of "Dabiq", the ISIS newsletter, out of
curiosity, then later took my laptop through security multiple times without
even thinking about it until I read this article. Because I'm also a "real
american".

~~~
canadian_voter
Last time I flew into the US I was reading a copy of The Reluctant
Fundamentalist on the plane. But I'm white, so nobody cared.

Next time I think I'll try The Anarchist Cookbook.

------
Cyph0n
I'm a Muslim American (and Arab!) myself, and I'd like to chime in.

Firstly, let me state that I did not travel back to the US during the Muslim
ban. Nonetheless, I couldn't help but feel that the author was a bit too
paranoid. According to a quick Google search, she likely wasn't wearing a
hijab, which drastically decreases the amount of "attention" she'd receive
during security checks. More importantly, she's American! The way I understand
it, there is simply no way for her to be denied entry to the US. I understand
her being worried about the content of her laptop, but again this would even
worry a "true American". Remember the guy who was kicked off a plane for
working on a math problem? It's important to note that the brunt of the Muslim
ban was aimed at foreigners and US visa holders.

My experience has been nothing but positive to be frank. Granted, I'm a male,
so it's slightly more difficult to do "religious profiling". On my trip on
Delta to Paris in late Dec 2016, I was comfortable speaking Arabic on the
plane: I was seated next to a older Libyan lady who was traveling to visit
family, and we had a nice chat as the plane landed. She was wearing hijab, and
also had nothing bad to say about travelling to/from the US.

Of course, this does not at all mean that I'm fine with the ban! On the
contrary, I think it was an extremely stupid and short sighted decision, and
I'm honestly quite disgusted that POTUS is still pushing for it.

~~~
altendo
> there is simply no way for her to be denied entry to the US

As was proven when Trump instituted his executive order, people with valid
visas and even green cards were denied entry into the US[1]. That's since been
reversed in the courts... but that doesn't mean that the current, or even a
future, administration won't try again in the future. (I doubt Trump will,
after getting blocked in the courts... but you never know.)

[1] [http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/trump-muslim-ban-
green-c...](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/trump-muslim-ban-green-card-
holders/)

~~~
Cyph0n
I am aware of that, but from my understanding she is a US citizen.

~~~
lukeschlather
Her precautions sounded totally reasonable. Being a US Citizen with security
clearance won't even protect you from unreasonable searches if you don't seem
white enough:

[http://www.theverge.com/2017/2/12/14583124/nasa-sidd-
bikkann...](http://www.theverge.com/2017/2/12/14583124/nasa-sidd-bikkannavar-
detained-cbp-phone-search-trump-travel-ban)

~~~
Cyph0n
I've heard of such cases, but they seem to be the exception. Actually, a
security clearance makes the chance of this happening higher from what I
understand. The last people you'd want to get compromised are the people who
work in sensitive fields.

~~~
lukeschlather
His phone was confiscated and searched. The people doing the searches don't
have clearance to access the information on his JPL phone, so on the contrary,
the search constitutes a breach of national security.

~~~
Cyph0n
Never said I agree with that. It was a stupid decision on the part of the CBP
officer. But what I am saying is that a person with security clearance should
expect further scrutiny when travelling abroad or arriving on US soil. Part of
the job I guess.

------
saalweachter
This line from near the end jumped out at me:

> "I was asked _if I was Muslim_ and what I did and where I lived."

The hell? I know I'm a naive white guy who doesn't travel much, but can they
really ask you your religion when you cross the border? That sounds illegal
and unconstitutional and offensive as hell.

~~~
Someone1234
Yes, legally they can.

CBP has broad powers to investigate. They can ask who you're sleeping with,
your sexual orientation, what your religion is, your parent's religion, and
on. Most Americans aren't used to this, but foreigners visiting your country
have been putting up with this stuff since 9/11.

Everything on your person is subject to search. They've now extended that to
things not physically on your person (e.g. cloud accounts, social media
logins, etc).

PS - It may be illegal to deny entry due to many of these things. We're
talking about what they can "legally" ask about, and the answer is just about
anything.

~~~
mkaziz
They're allowed to ask a US Citizen their religion? Isn't that a protected
class?

~~~
Someone1234
Yes they are.

I don't follow what protected classes have to do with this. Class protections
stop someone from being denied employment, denied services, or discriminated
against. It doesn't make it some kind of secret, or "don't ask, don't tell."

CPS have been given the power to investigate US Citizens for other criminal
infractions (like smuggling, identity theft, and terrorism) so they can ask
invasive questions and refer it to other law enforcement.

~~~
mkaziz
If they're asking for your religion for the purposes of deciding whether to
let you into the country or not, or detain your or not, doesn't that open the
door to being discriminated against /for your religion/?

~~~
Someone1234
"Opening the door" to something bad happen isn't an actual argument.

Detaining someone could "open the door" to violent beatings, talking to
someone could "open the door" to threatening them, but until those beatings,
threats, or actual discrimination occur it isn't considered illegal.

~~~
saalweachter
I think a better question is "why would they ask you your religion if they
_didn 't_ mean to deny you entry to the country on the basis of it?".

You can detain someone for many reasons, some of them legitimate, some of them
illegitimate. What is the other reason to ask someone their religion at the
border?

~~~
Someone1234
> What is the other reason to ask someone their religion at the border?

To determine their eligibility to enter. Much like figuring out political
views, it can open up avenues of discussion which may flag problems.

~~~
saalweachter
I've got to ask, it's really bugging me.

Are you OK with prohibiting entry on the basis with religion, or do you really
not see how asking someone their religion to determine their eligibility to
enter is prohibiting their entry on the basis of their religion?

------
the-dude
All / only feelings, no substance at all.

I have always felt treated like a suspect around US / Canadian / Swiss
borders. Have been ordered to take of shoes etc.

There is literally nothing in the whole piece except feelings.

~~~
nyreed
You say that like feelings are something not worth discussing.

~~~
the-dude
I knew my comment would be countered like this.

I don't think they are not worth discussing, but the title of the piece is
pretty sensational.

I just commented there are no facts, nothing was real. She felt the way she
did. Sure. But travel has been this way 15+ years now.

edit:typos

~~~
bakul
Rafia is a she. Not that it changes anything.

This fear is much worse now. Watching what you say, the language you speak,
books you read, what may be on your computers/phone, your demeanor, etc.
Because of that fear she tried to remove anything that may signal she is a
Muslim to the CBP. That makes the title not sensational. [But it didn't work
as they still asked her if she was a Muslim.]

~~~
the-dude
It does not change anything, but it explains a lot.

~~~
romwell
I'd be curious to know what exactly this explained.

------
microcolonel
> Some had been kicked off planes for speaking Arabic on a cell phone

One of the two prominent alleged examples of this was a youtube prankster who
stood up and started yelling into a telephone in the middle of an airplane,
then jump-cut a video to make it look like people were criticizing him for
speaking Arabic.

The other prominent alleged example was of the son of a Iraqi diplomat who was
killed under Saddam Hussein's regime; and though it may seem unfair, the FBI
wanted to question him, he has a documented connection to politics in Iraq.
There's a decent chance there that it had nothing to do with speaking Arabic
on the plane, and the FBI wanted to question him anyhow.

Other than that I guess I'd need to dig deeper, but this is a story some
people _want_ to come true.

I am screened at airports, I don't know why exactly, I suspect they know
something I don't know about my family. I factory reset all electronics before
bringing them across the border, because I don't want to be asked to unlock
them and submit to a search. Maybe it's theatre, maybe it's unfair, maybe it's
a show of force, maybe it's discriminatory; but you know what, lots of people
get stopped at the border. I can't pretend to know why _I_ get stopped, and I
don't think anyone else should either.

------
sersi
And in that, the terrorists have won. Before 9/11 and other attacks people
were not scared and Muslim Americans were not as discriminated against[1]. Now
with the help of propaganda, of Fox news and of the Government using the panic
to justify taking away freedom, people are scared and a lot of them don't
think twice about reducing the rights of other Americans just because of their
origin. The aim of Terrorism is to bring terror to the masses and in that the
attacks have been a huge success. Never mind that more people die from
malnutrition per year than people from terrorist attacks. Or closer to home,
more people die from traffic accident than from terrorist attacks.

It's not the number of deaths that's important, it's just the power that the
attack has over the consciousness of the masses and how much of their ideals
they give up and destroy.

[1] they were discriminated like any minority because people are monkeys and
are scared of anything different by nature but it was bearable

------
ilanco
I am not a Muslim and neither an American citizen. After reading multiple
articles like these it has become clear to me that any visitor to the United
States should backup and wipe their phones and take the minimum amount of
electronics. It's not that I have something to hide, is the invasion of my
privacy that bothers me.

~~~
xeromal
My Samsung S7 just released a thing called secure folder which creates a
second version of your phone user that can have it's own apps and photos. I
wonder if people are aware of it.

[https://news.samsung.com/global/for-your-eyes-only-secure-
fo...](https://news.samsung.com/global/for-your-eyes-only-secure-folder-now-
available-for-galaxy-s7-galaxy-s7-edge)

~~~
jedikv
You're better off just backing up to the cloud and wiping. Having hidden data
can be compromising if they discover the presence of it.

------
shas3
Can someone clarify why the author talks specifically about Trump's America?
This kind of excessive profiling at ports of entry happened under GWB and
Obama too. I have heard many anecdotes in the last 15 years. Is there a
provable and statistically significant increase in intensity or number of such
incidents? In its absence, we should settle for a prior for likelihood-of-
being-profiled that is defined by pre-Trump rates. We can't arbitrarily update
this prior based on our political opinions.

~~~
xbmcuser
She mentioned that it started with 911 and Bush. Increased under Obama and
under Trump it is even worse. So to her it is getting progressively worse.

------
dmix
> Some had been kicked off planes for speaking Arabic on a cell phone

This was proven to be false or at a very minimum largely misrepresented. The
guy kicked off was a Youtube star known for pulling pranks and filming them.
It wasn't simply because he was a regular passenger speaking Arabic.

Sadly that didn't stop people from spreading this headline. I still see this
claim being made often.

There are cases where people are acting irrationally scared of muslims no
doubt. Airlines have been sold to the public as this scary place, which is the
primary problem.

That being said, besides those minority of travelers who discriminate against
muslims and cause problems, I do not believe airlines themselves are
conspiring to kick people off flights simply because they are Muslim. Stories
such as this reinforce this idea and create an unnecessary level of fear in
the public.

The other story he mentions about the two women getting kicked off is similar.
The bar for getting kicked off the flight is pretty low and many non-mulsim
people have been for similar small things as this:
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/08/muslim-
woman-k...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/08/muslim-woman-kicked-
off-american-airlines-flight-islamophobia)

The customs agents though are another story. That whole group of people need
to be trained better or given less power. I've been secondary screened for the
silliest things of reasons twice when I used to travel back/forth from
Canada/SF.

~~~
gkya
The title of the article you linked is "I didn't realize how often Muslims get
kicked off planes, until it happened to me"

~~~
dmix
Opps, That was the second story he mentioned. I didn't make that clear in my
comment, updated.

------
grenoire
Isn't this the case for many people travelling to the US?

It's really not about the travel ban, or being Muslim.

~~~
romwell
Take a Quran with you on your next trip here and find out!

If you are having second thoughts about this idea - herein lies your answer.

~~~
komali2
Meh, I'm a white dude but I'll give it a shot.

------
xienze
I wonder how the author feels about non-Muslims being banned from Mecca?

~~~
m_fayer
Two wrongs don't make a right.

------
lolc
From my stoner years, I can relate.

Nowadays I'm in the "unafraid and unselfconscious" category again.

Edit: That doesn't mean I'm going to visit the US again with those checks in
place.

------
adornedCupcake
Jeez, dark times.

------
HalfwayToDice
Please do not take the author's advice.

Deleting text messages from your phone before getting to any customs is a
terrible idea, it makes you look like you are hiding something.

