
Stanford University data glitch exposes truth about scholarships - badrot
http://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Stanford-University-data-glitch-exposes-truth-12396695.php
======
saas_co_de
It is somewhat amusing that they give scholarships to people with financial
industry background, who are the least in need, and who will receive the
highest salaries on exit - and then claim that their scholarships are need
based.

At least they are teaching their students the ethics they need to succeed in
the financial industry.

~~~
jknz
Companies can have both a diversity policy and a policy to make sure the top
talents don't go elsewhere.

University too, can have a diversity policy as well as a merit policy. To
compete and attract the best students, University must either provide merit
based scholarship, or organize with other universities to get rid of merit
based scholarships everywhere (cartel!)

~~~
Kinnard
>Companies can have both a diversity policy and a policy to make sure the top
talents don't go elsewhere.

Those should be one policy, the diversity policy is about making sure top
talent doesn't go elsewhere . . . your comment implies that people from
"diverse" backgrounds are not top talent, whether that's what you meant or
not.

~~~
holbrad
>the diversity policy is about making sure top talent doesn't go elsewhere

From what I know that doesn't seem to be the case at all, it's about
projecting a positive image of your company (The candidates skills are
secondary) (Though in theory the standards should be identical)

The hiring practices should be based upon who would be the best candidate
(Experience, technical skills, personality, Education)

When you simply focus on what objective skills you need as an employer, you
should find "Diverse"/minority candidates in proportion to what percentage of
top candidates they occupy.

This surely creates the most level playing field?

------
kelukelugames
Stanfurd can favor students born on a blue moon with an extra nipple for all I
care. But claiming all scholarships are need based, giving them to rich
students, and then telling students to not discuss their aid is disgusting. In
my book this is on par with the wage fixing between Apple and the other tech
giants.

This is the downside of diversity and inclusion. Companies and schools have
gotten so good at paying lip service to it, we can't tell what kind of
bullshit happens on the inside.

~~~
mcguire
How is it a downside of diversity out inclusion? Sends more a downside of
lying.

~~~
kelukelugames
Sure, I think we are saying the same thing? It's easier to lie about diversity
and inclusion now that it has become popular. Maybe even mandatory because
many people want to attend a school or work at a company that values
diversity. I remember during orientation they showed a Pride video. I thought
it was unrelated but my co-workers teared up. Previously, companies wouldn't
have bothered or knew how to.

~~~
matt4077
I have no idea what you're trying to say, and name-dropping Ellen Pao doesn't
help.

It seems like you're faulting society's wish to increase diversity for lies
about diversity. And, sure, that's true in the sense that being ask about the
issue is necessary for an untruthful answer–but that's just a meaningless
truism.

Large changes take time, and there are always setbacks on the way. The
environmental movement created the concept of "greenwashing", which seems
similar. But even that is progress of sorts, because it's literally "PR for
environmentalism". When it's exposed, it promotes schemes such as
certifications. And even when not exposed, it establishes good practices as
the new norm for next generation.

~~~
kelukelugames
Thanks for telling me the comment is unclear. I'm working on writing better.
It's a complaint against liars and hypocrites. That's what I'm trying to say.

Name dropping Ellen Pao never helps on HN or reddit. People here really don't
like her, whereas she's a hero in other spheres. Nevertheless, I don't agree
with everything she did but she offers insight people miss.

------
subdane
The central problem here is that Stanford is saying one thing and doing
another. The central question, which isn't asked in the article, is why.
Stanford is creating an exclusive, private club, as is their right, but not
being upfront about the rules of exclusion. More importantly, the reasons for
exclusion.

~~~
fovc
I was thinking about this myself. In addition to the PR benefit when
soliciting alumni donations ("This money is helping needy students") I think
there could be a more immediate business reason: I bet a lot of finance types
(or otherwise wealthier applicants) don't apply for financial aid (and don't
feel bad about not receiving an offer) because there's this myth about it
being need based. Now it seems like everyone might as well apply for aid and
play coy, especially if they have other offers

~~~
matt4077
The idea has always been that admission and aid are separate decisions (for US
citizen), and that applying for financial aid would therefore never have
negative consequences (beyond the time to fill out the application).

~~~
lnanek2
Yes, but before people believed Standford's lies that aid was needs based, so
if they had money from a job or something, they would expect to get nothing
and not bother applying. I was in a similar situation, my parents both worked,
and was offered nothing in terms of financial aid. Now that we know aid is not
needs based, and in fact a lot of aid goes to people with the most finance
experience, it makes sense to apply even if you have money already.

------
baybal2
And this is not much different from pretty much all other business schools
with any much big name. I'm Russian, from a top 1% family in Russia. I studied
in an average college in Canada on my own volition, against wishes of my
clueless parents who wanted to bang big money away on a business school. It
took a lot of efforts for me to convince them that "big name business school"
is a waste of money if you go there for actual skills and knowledge in the
best case, and a disaster when you simply gave money away to small time
fraudsters in the worst.

I personally know two other Russians few years older than me who went for
Harvard MBA, and now spill bitter tears for spending a big portion of their
family fortune for, at best, laughably mediocre education for such price.

And even in the mid-tier college I was going to, I saw that very few people
who were getting not even a scholarship, but a "income supplement stipend,"
usually given to low income students, being given to another Russian guy who
was always dressed expensively and casually wore $2000 watch and few other
surprisingly well off people.

I instantly understood that they do it in anticipation that if this guy will
work in his father's company and earn big buck, they can proudly put his
testament and his salary on their graduate outcomes statistics.

------
georgeecollins
I am surprised people are surprised by this. I went to B school over twenty
years ago, and my experience was after I applied and was accepted and passed
on going, they offered a scholarship. It was clear it had nothing to do with
need, they wete just trying to persuade me to go. Tuition amounts are just
sticker prices that you can negotiate down based on your bargaining power. If
you don't know that you don't belong in business school.

Although as I am sure many here would agree, it makes little sense for those
who want to participate in startups.

~~~
crimsonalucard
When a business person lies about a product he is being unethical and
committing fraud.

Are people surprised that other people and institutions commit fraud and lie?
No. No one is surprised. However when a criminal commits a crime, people react
in kind.

~~~
trophycase
Especially when they are subsidized by the federal government.

------
analog31
My daughter is applying for colleges. When a college says that they only offer
need-based aid, what it means is that we can't afford it. Yet I've encouraged
her to apply to a few of those colleges anyway, based on the assumption that
they don't only offer need based aid.

~~~
Spooky23
Find a community college with a 2-2 combo program with a school with a good
name. Buy your daughter a nice car.

She’ll get a better education, have a car at graduation and you will save a
lot of money.

~~~
wenc
What are some examples of those?

I can think of only one: UCLA is a popular transfer school for folks with 2
years of CC.

~~~
Spooky23
Look for “program to program transfer”.

Here’s an example from a community college near where I grew up.

[http://www.hvcc.edu/career-
transfer/transfer/articulation_by...](http://www.hvcc.edu/career-
transfer/transfer/articulation_byprogram.html)

The value varies by major. A good friend of mine went from the engineering
sciences major to SUNY Binghamton or Buffalo, where he got an engineering BS
and a paid co-op. He ended up paying very little, had no debt, and had a
network right out of school to get a job for his PE. Then He started his own
engineering practice.

Some state universities have partnerships with other schools for masters
programs too. My school had a 3-2 masters program where you’d end up with a
state BS/BA and an MS in engineering or sciences from a another school,
sometimes public sometimes private.

The nice thing about program transfers vs a normal transfer is that there are
no surprises. All of your general education and in-major requirements are met.
Anecdotally, it’s a better experience for some majors because the larger
universities usually consider teaching a distraction, and you get better
instructors and smaller classes for in-major stuff in the CC. Intro to CS in
my state school was a hazing ritual designed to reduce a group of 600 students
down to 300 for the spring. At the CC, it’s 30-40 kids.

------
kderbe
As mentioned by the SF Chronicle, the story was originally published on the
site Poets & Quants. Their article has more details:
[https://poetsandquants.com/2017/11/30/stanford-gsb-misled-
st...](https://poetsandquants.com/2017/11/30/stanford-gsb-misled-students-on-
financial-aid/)

------
drb91
Not surprising. These are primarily businesses after all with billions of
dollars of investments and brand value to maintain. You can’t expect them to
give an education to just anyone off the street!

~~~
DenisM
The skew discovered was in favor of two groups: 1. existing financial-
background applicants 2. diversity candidates.

The former improves average post-graduation median salary, so it's good for
the reputation. But I doubt the latter contributes in the same way.

~~~
shas3
The argument for diversity as a good investment:

1\. With high-income whites some dumb blokes may sneak in due to privilege and
winging it based on family connections, etc. This might be happening at the
expense of spunky smart low income whites or blacks who worked harder and were
smarter to overcome their disadvantage to get to a point where they’re in the
pool of those being considered for admission into Stanford.

2\. Diversity hires bring fresh perspectives and help break group-think. In my
experience, all-white, all-Indian, all-Asian, etc. teams were always inferior
in terms of the experience of working there to diverse teams.

~~~
plandis
Yeah but gender and race diversity (the qualifications mentioned in the
article) still discriminate against poor white males.

I am fairly certain that a poor white guy would have a very different
perspective from one who grew up in a life of privilege but that socioeconomic
diversity doesn’t look as good I guess.

~~~
mcguire
No one is suggesting they should _only_ have diversity related scholarships.

------
biohax2015
> Last year, 12 percent of Stanford MBA graduates were hired by private equity
> firms, with a median starting salary of $177,500, the article said. Venture
> capital companies hired 7 percent of them, and paid a median salary $167,500
> to the beginners.

Wow.. I chose the wrong career track.

~~~
sndean
>> median salary $167,500 to the beginners

It's not all that high, since calling them beginners isn't exactly true [0].
It looks like a decent-sized chunk of the students have years of work
experience in finance/consulting/tech and some already have advanced degrees.
They weren't going to be paid poorly to begin with.

[0]
[https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/programs/mba/admission/evaluati...](https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/programs/mba/admission/evaluation-
criteria/class-profile)

~~~
gech
And they got that work experience originally due to internships... which they
only got due to elite networking or pedigree

~~~
kelukelugames
Have your read the book Pedigree? It's about how people get these type of jobs
written by a Kellog Professor. A lot of gatekeeping. Our society is not merit
based.

link to book: [http://amzn.to/2AqPTfw](http://amzn.to/2AqPTfw)

------
uiri
_He asked that the report not be shared publicly because he has returned the
data to the school_

This isn't how data works. It isn't something physical. It's 2017. After the
whole media piracy FUD that dragged on for years, everyone should understand
how it works. Stanford had the data all along. The article doesn't say that
Allcock deleted the data so he may still have it even if he gave Stanford
"back" a copy.

------
userbinator
_and informed the school about the vulnerability_

 _He asked that the report not be shared publicly because he has returned the
data to the school, which has not disputed its findings._

Although I can understand the fact that he's a student there and wants to
remain one, he could've released it all anonymously, perhaps with some
redaction of specific personal details; this (recent?) strong desire to toe
the line is unfortunate, because it means the school can still distort the
facts however it wants.

~~~
mcguire
It is entirely possible here could not guarantee the report was property
anonymized, in which case this was the proper result.

------
boulos
I'm guessing a lot of people didn't read the article: this is about GSB,
Stanford's _Business_ school. As pointed out in the article,
[https://poetsandquants.com/2017/11/30/stanford-gsb-misled-
st...](https://poetsandquants.com/2017/11/30/stanford-gsb-misled-students-on-
financial-aid/) is the original source and should be preferred for the HN
submission.

------
elmar
What's the perception of HN community regarding MIT?, personally I think they
have a different culture than other top 5 universities.

For example they don't give Honorary degrees and you only have to disclose
your financial status and if you need financial help only after been accepted.

------
CalChris
There's nothing wrong _per se_ with awarding this aid either needs based or
merit based. Awarding it merit based seems to be working for Stanford based on
results. Moreover, this is for graduate business school. I'm a crunchy
progressive but I see no problem with this private school doing whatever they
want (legally) if it works for them which it apparently does.

But awarding them merit based and then claiming to be needs based is
hypocrisy.

~~~
saas_co_de
> hypocrisy

that is just the PR side of things. you also have to think of the students.

Stanford lied to potential students and told them that they did not offer
merit based scholarships thus inducing them to pay full price. That is an
intentional misrepresentation of fact for financial gain on Stanford's part at
the expense of students who paid full price.

~~~
jessriedel
It also lied to donors. Naively it seems they'd have legal cause to sue for
their donations back. The claim that Stanford give aid based only on need is
an important part of the pitch.

------
DenisM
For the sake of an argument, there is some merit to diversity preference: if a
disadvantaged candidate made as much progress agains the headwind as a regular
candidate, it stands to reason they are more capable. Thoughts?

~~~
mc32
They can favor whoever they want. The issue is they claimed one thing
(scholarships based on needs) and did another, (scholarships based on merit
and gender).

~~~
DenisM
It's a thoughtful comment about the article and deserves to be published as
the top-level comment, but do you have anything to add about the comment that
you are replying to?

------
goialoq
Tangential fact: The author of this article is Isaac Asimov's niece.

------
sytelus
TLDR; Stanford says they only give aid based on need. Their data shows this is
true for "base" aid but then they also do "increment" on this aid (without
knowledge of students) which is to make class more diverse. So you end up with
some students with more need but less total aid and vice versa. They say they
will look in to this and make process more transparent. Interesting part of
the story was that this was found out by student who got hold of
unintentionally accessible data and spent months analyzing it to discover how
Stanford gave aid.

------
IgniteTheSun
In the old days, grants and scholarships were distinct programs within
universities with no overlap:

* Grants = need based to enable students who needed financial help.

* Scholarship = merit based to attract the best students

When did this change?

~~~
rbobby
Lately "scholarships" reminds me very much of negotiating a discount with a
used car dealer.

------
Dowwie
If you want to advertise a program with strong employment opportunities for
your graduates, you will accept more students who will get high paying jobs.
This is part of the reason that more people with finance backgrounds are
accepted.

------
bArray
>But it does discriminate — often favoring female applicants, international
students, and those with backgrounds in finance, says the report by Adam
Allcock, a Stanford business school student from the United Kingdom who found
and analyzed the data.

The comments about the rich not needing aid isn't entirely true, having rich
parents doesn't automatically mean the child is rich. I would want to see the
report in order to draw my own conclusions.

The over looked point - if this had been favoured against females or
internationals, you can sure bet there would be massive public outcry, calls
for people to quit their posts and protests at the University.

~~~
solidsnack9000
It seems that they actually did discriminate against international students,
per: [https://poetsandquants.com/2017/11/30/stanford-gsb-misled-
st...](https://poetsandquants.com/2017/11/30/stanford-gsb-misled-students-on-
financial-aid/2/)

------
linkmotif
What is wrong with offering merit based scholarships? Why not offer both need
and merit based scholarships? Why lie at all about this?

------
coldcode
Having worked at a university at one point I can understand how shitty
security is at virtually all universities. But Stanford claims to turn out
brilliant technologists (in addition to these overpaid MBAs) yet apparently
doesn't hire any.

~~~
ForHackernews
All security is a disaster everywhere. In case you weren't paying attention,
Apple (arguably the world's wealthiest company and widely lauded as a
security-conscious firm) just shipped their operating system with a blank root
password.

~~~
ForHackernews
Also just today [https://medium.com/matthias-gliwka/microsoft-leaks-tls-
priva...](https://medium.com/matthias-gliwka/microsoft-leaks-tls-private-key-
for-cloud-erp-product-10b56f7d648)

------
utopcell
Without the actual data, or even the report that was generated based on it,
there is not much that can be concluded. It seems that this leak was specific
to the Business school so it's a stretch to generalize to the whole
University.

Given the categories, I'd sooner attribute this to unconscious bias rather
than a secret plot to bias towards female and/or international students
though.

------
curiousgal
No link to the actual report...

------
trisimix
Just another reason I hate Ivys

~~~
refurb
Stanford is not in the Ivy League.

------
ringaroundthetx
One of my favorite realizations is that more things are free when you have
money.

People just want your business.

It’s expensive being poor.

~~~
Waterluvian
Payday loans, credit card interest. Financing plans. Being poor is cripplingly
expensive.

~~~
curiousgal
Credit cards are the one thing I can’t wrap my head around. I am not American
and most of my young U.S. friends I met early in college were so excited about
having a credit score of x which entitled them to more debt...

~~~
lotsofpulp
Then those young US friends were idiots.

I only know people who use credit cards to get 2%+ back from their purchases,
plus an interest free 20 to 45 day loan. If you're spending with a credit card
more than the cash you have on hand, then you're doing it wrong. Obviously,
there must be some cohort of people that pay interest, but there's no reason
anyone with half a brain can't setup up autopay and earn the cash back
benefits and rental car/travel insurance benefits without paying any interest
at all.

~~~
ringaroundthetx
Why were his friends idiots?

They could have been doing exactly what you described

~~~
lotsofpulp
I don't recall the comment I responded to saying anything about credit score,
I thought they said their friends couldn't wait to get into credit cards just
so they had access to more debt, which to me implied they were going to pay
credit card interest rates.

I apologize though if I read it incorrectly the first time.

------
mankash666
Not the worst preference to have - hand out scholarships to meritorious
students. Isn't that how the world should work anyways?

~~~
sverige
It depends on your definition of merit. Is it based on ability to acquire the
skills to perform top-drawer work, or based on something else, like the
desirability of the candidate based on their family or business connections or
other factors that make them more marketable, even if their abilities are only
average?

Most Americans think "meritocracy" refers to the former. The reality is that
it nearly always refers to the latter.

