
Valve secrets spill over in new Steam documentary app - jtrip
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/07/valve-secrets-spill-over-including-half-life-3-in-new-steam-documentary-app/
======
ss3000
I used to be a huge Valve fanboy, but throughout the years they've managed to
burn away all of that goodwill through a combination of not building good
games anymore (or at least not releasing them, as I learned in the article),
and pioneering microtransactions and loot boxes (read gambling) added to their
existing games that profit mainly off of gamers with poor self control (most
of whom are literally children).

Although I also blame the gaming community as a whole for collectively
rejecting the subscription model for games, which made the much more
exploitative f2p + microtransaction/lootbox business model the only real
viable option for games that require ongoing development.

~~~
ilugaslifk
I don't know enough about the history of microtransactions and loot boxes to
evaluate your charge that they "pioneered" them, and that indeed could be
quite important to any calculation of how much goodwill they deserve.

But I know that in making that calculation, I personally couldn't give less of
a shit about whether or not they released Half-Life 3, when they've been _the_
patron saint of gaming on Linux. Which they haven't just barely saved from
oblivion, but been the biggest single force in turning into an actual viable
competitor.

I hope I don't need to explain why that matters for reasons that go beyond
whether or not you are personally directly invested in gaming on Linux.

Their strongest recent competition (Epic) has not just been indifferent to
gaming on Linux, they've actively done enormous damage to it: they've bought
exclusive rights to popular mainstream games which fully supported Linux, and
_removed that support_.

Though the picture is further complicated in that the other big competitor,
GOG.com (run by CD Projekt, the Polish developers of the Witcher series), are
_easily_ the best citizens altogether, most importantly for their commitment
to DRM-free distribution. But they also aren't the ones doing Proton.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> GOG.com (run by CD Projekt, the Polish developers of the Witcher series),
> are easily the best citizens altogether, most importantly for their
> commitment to DRM-free distribution

The commitment is weaker than they want it to sound. They're selling quite a
few games now that require an internet connection or a serial number in order
for multiplayer to work, or even just to access some of the single-player
gameplay.

Refusing to call something "DRM" doesn't mean you're DRM-free.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
> They're selling quite a few games now that require an internet connection
> [...] in order for multiplayer to work

How else would online multiplayer work? I suppose there's the community-run
server model, but you're asking vendors to potentially do some pretty major
re-architecting.

GOG's games are entirely DRM-Free for single-player and local multiplayer. For
experiences that are inherently tied to online services, the concept of DRM-
Free ownership doesn't really work.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> How else would online multiplayer work?

Right, because I said "multiplayer", obviously I meant "multiplayer over the
internet".

Multiplayer would work by letting you connect however you want.

> you're asking vendors to potentially do some pretty major re-architecting.

From a game architecture perspective, there is no difference between
connecting to someone else over the internet, and connecting to someone else
over a LAN. As far as the networking stack is concerned, the difference is
that in the second case, you're most likely using IP addresses that are
reserved for non-internet use.

But wait, there's more!

> How else would online multiplayer work?

You could just... NOT require a registration when connecting to the internet.
Remember what I said about requiring a serial number? Try thinking of a more
iconic, prototypical example of DRM.

> GOG's games are entirely DRM-Free for single-player and local multiplayer.

No, they're not, this is just false.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
> From a game architecture perspective, there is no difference between
> connecting to someone else over the internet, and connecting to someone else
> over a LAN. As far as the networking stack is concerned, the difference is
> that in the second case, you're most likely using IP addresses that are
> reserved for non-internet use.

Well, but you're assuming the server software is actually designed to be run
on end-user PCs, and not some proprietary server architecture that also hooks
into a bunch of other company stuff.

> You could just... NOT require a registration when connecting to the
> internet. Remember what I said about requiring a serial number? Try thinking
> of a more iconic, prototypical example of DRM.

So I guess the question here is, what is the purpose of buying DRM Free games?

To me, it's the knowledge that as long as I can find compatible hardware, I
will _always_ be able to run a game, no matter what external server somewhere
someone decides to take down. This is very powerful, and it's the difference
between truly owning an experience, and renting temporary access to one.

As long as an external server is required, all of that goes out the window.
Any game that uses that model is inherently a rental. And there's nothing
necessarily wrong with that, if the experience couldn't exist any other way. I
buy tickets to movie theaters, and Broadway shows, and plenty of other
"temporary" forms of entertainment.

If the multiplayer already requires an external server, what does it matter
whether or not there's a serial number? To me, it makes absolutely no
difference.

> No, they're not, this is just false.

What single player / local multiplayer games on GOG have DRM?

~~~
thaumasiotes
> What single player / local multiplayer games on GOG have DRM?

#1. This question is not asked in good faith; games purposefully include
centralized internet multiplayer, while not including local multiplayer, and
this is itself a form of DRM.

#2. Northgard applies DRM even to single-player modes. You cannot use them
without simultaneously connecting through the Steam^W GOG client.

[https://www.gog.com/game/northgard](https://www.gog.com/game/northgard)

~~~
Wowfunhappy
> Northgard applies DRM even to single-player modes. You cannot use them
> without simultaneously connecting through the Steam^W GOG client.

I'm not seeing anything about this in reviews or elsewhere on Google? The GOG
page itself states:

> Please note: The GOG Galaxy Client is required to access online features for
> Northgard.

But, offline singleplayer seems to work fine by all accounts. I'm actually a
bit tempted to buy the game to verify absolutely.

~~~
thaumasiotes
Note this forum thread, titled "Warning: GOG Galaxy is required to use
conquest mode.":

[https://www.gog.com/forum/northgard/warning_gog_galaxy_is_re...](https://www.gog.com/forum/northgard/warning_gog_galaxy_is_required_to_use_conquest_mode)

So no, offline singleplayer is not working fine by all accounts, it is not
intended to work at all, and this was fine with GOG when they reviewed the
game. (If you start the game, you will see the message "You need to log in
through GOG to access Conquest" displayed in a tooltip over its grayed-out
button. It's not something you could actually miss, if you were reviewing the
game.)

Did you really think I was just making this up?

------
ziffusion
> We sort of had to collectively admit we were wrong on the premise that you
> will be happiest if you work on something you personally want to work on the
> most

What do they say about this? What is it that they found that invalidated this
"premise"? I can't seem to find anything in the article.

~~~
reitzensteinm
I think it's almost certainly going to lead to a bunch of prototypes and half
finished games, which is very fun. Finishing projects is not.

Ultimately though, jumping between a bunch of cancelled projects is not
fulfilling and likely to lead to burn out in the long run.

~~~
woko
I wonder whether that means that The Valley of Gods will eventually be
finished... or to the contrary, not at all.

This is a game which was being developed by a studio called Campo Santo. The
devs were hired by Valve, but they could still work on their game at Valve. At
some point, the devs were really happy (based on their social media accounts)
to switch and devote all their time to Half-Life Alyx instead, and the
development of their original game was put on an indefinite hold. Now that
Half-Life Alyx was released, what does that quote imply for The Valley of
Gods?

~~~
Mekantis
I'm still mad about Campo Santo. I couldn't give two shits about Alyx or Half-
Life or any other of Valve's games. But they _had_ to consume one of the most
promising story-focused indie studios and relegate them to making games I just
have zero interest in, and don't have anything really interesting to say or
let you experience about the human condition. Firewatch felt like a real story
about real people. Alyx et al are just completely different genres. Now we're
never going to get another Campo Santo game and it's a significant loss for
gaming culture.

~~~
leetrout
I really relate to this. I LOVED Fire Watch. It was absolutely stunning.

------
randombytes6869
I heard lack of effective management structure was a far worse consequence of
Valve's unusual structure. Heard influence became based on connections and
favors, not good results or ideas. Heard many good projects died, even ones
that would make sense to a third grader (HL3 L4D3). Hearsay but its all over
internet if you're curious

~~~
denkmoon
People talk a lot of shit about Valve without having a clue, a consequence of
their secrecy and their position as a premier game developer. I wouldn't trust
anything that is said about Valve that didn't come from someone who has worked
there.

Tyler McVicker/Valve "News" Network is a major component of this. His
interviews with Valve are great. His speculation is trash.

~~~
bllguo
a lot of these comments about valve stem from the somewhat infamous tweets of
a former valve dev, though

here's the first link i found [https://www.pcgamer.com/ex-valve-employee-
describes-ruthless...](https://www.pcgamer.com/ex-valve-employee-describes-
ruthless-industry-politics/)

~~~
neuronic
Yea but thats still ONE guy who might be bitter for one reason or another.
It's hard to get an objective look at Valve like this.

What we get is utterly filtered.

------
egypturnash
If I am doing the math right it’s 14 years since HL3 was announced.

If I am doing the math right it was also 14 years between the initial
announcement of Duke Nukem Forever and it’s release. Guess HL3 is about to
become the longest-running vaporware game.

It is only nine years between the release of the second book in _The
Kingkiller Chronicles_ and now, despite its author’s claim around the time the
first was published that all three were ready to go in quick succession. But
it is 27 years since volume 4 of David Gerrold’s _War Against The Chtorr_.

~~~
Impossible
HL3 (Half-Life 3) was never officially announced, unless you mean Half-Life 2:
Episode 3, which was cancelled a while back

~~~
Trasmatta
Episode 3 was never even officially cancelled I believe. Valve just stopped
talking about it, stopped answering questions about it, then everyone just
started assuming Half-Life 3 was coming instead.

Ending Episode 2 in the way that they did, then just letting Episode 3
evaporate was a real slap in the face.

------
jbob2000
>... combat sequences through procedurally generated towers and buildings,
chained together by crafted plot events.

There's a fantastic game out right now called Hades from Supergiant Games (of
Bastion fame, this one could comfortably be called "Bastion 2.0") which does
this roguelite-action-rpg genre very well. Highly recommended, checkout the
trailer from the recent update:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNrt43epkG0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNrt43epkG0)

~~~
ehsankia
Hades really did a fantastic job at doing narrative in a Roguelite game. I
loved how you get bits and pieces of story along the way.

That being said, I don't really see Valve making a game like that for some
reason.

------
whywhywhywhy
I feel pretty strongly that, assuming you care about the art and creating
things then Valve is a blueprint of how exactly not to do it, hang on let me
finish.

Building Steam was a genius business move, it has basically given them an
insane amount of income for close to zero effort, I mean the client is
insanely janky and has barely been updated from an actual experience point of
view in over a decade but it doesn't matter because almost all PC gaming
purchases are funneled through it.

Now what this should have done is allow the company to stop caring about
profits and being able to relish in building true art to a true un-compromised
vision. But something has seriously gone wrong here and the company has
struggled to ship close to anything meaty in 16 years.

To put it in perspective lets look at auteur studios held in similar regard as
Half-Life.

(I'm ignoring side releases, just focusing on mainline games)

\- Half-Life: HL2 2004, HL:A 2020 \- Kojima : MGS3 2004, MGS4 2008, MGS5 2014,
Death Stranding (worth pointing out his studio was rebuilt from nothing for
this too) 2020 \- Rockstar : GTA:SA 2004, GTA4 2008, RDR 2010, GTA5 2013, RDR2
2019

If Valve hadn't had steam, the company would not still exist today with that
output. If HL:A good, yes. But we put it next to Rockstars output in the same
time and it's not even the same league.

Something has seriously gone wrong within Valve and I think the charitable way
to frame it is "Oh they just care so much they only release when its perfect"
but I'm not really buying that, I feel they have instead of being freed
creatively by Steam they have been shacked by it.

Steve Jobs sales and marketing speech comes to mind [0], the people calling
the shots are only focused on running a digital videogame Walmart, artists
push and push get burned out by not shipping and leave. At the head of it I
guess Gabe just doesn't have the passion or care enough about creating art to
push for anything else.

Now if you're a big Valve fan what I'm saying might annoy you, but really
think for a second. What have you as a Valve fan been denied because the
people in the company care more about running a store than making art. What
games exist in the reality where Valve never made steam.

[0] :
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4)

~~~
trowawee
> I feel pretty strongly that, assuming you care about the art and creating
> things then Valve is a blueprint of how exactly not to do it, hang on let me
> finish.

> Building Steam was a genius business move, it has basically given them an
> insane amount of income for close to zero effort, I mean the client is
> insanely janky and has barely been updated from an actual experience point
> of view in over a decade but it doesn't matter because almost all PC gaming
> purchases are funneled through it.

> Now what this should have done is allow the company to stop caring about
> profits and being able to relish in building true art to a true un-
> compromised vision. But something has seriously gone wrong here and the
> company has struggled to ship close to anything meaty in 16 years.

It's the Google problem. Once you have an automatic money printer, the only
important job is making sure the automatic money printer still works. There's
no incentive to improve it, because it's still printing money, and there's
little incentive to make other products better, because whenever you look at
the big revenue chart, the money printer in 90% of the pie chart, so who cares
about the other parts.

~~~
justnotworthit
It's amazing, really.

Through making Half-life, they stumbled into getting 30% of the PC gaming
market for all time. Through making professional half-life mods, they stumbled
into the uncontrolled world of loot box windfalls (plus via Dota 2, a
professionalized mod of blizzard's game).

Like google, they probably fancy themselves as a kind of skunkworks laboratory
that has the luxury of time and resources, able to accomplish what others
can't.

The two exceptions: While I've always been a skeptic of VR, their advancement
of it is admirable. And while I've long hated the steam software (complaining
about not being able to increase the chat font size for 10 years, without
digging thru hardcoded css files), the recent influx of game stores that are
equally crappy makes steam look ahead of their time. (How many years before
Epic adds download throttling? Oh right, fortnite is printing money).

------
pansa2
> we were wrong that you will be happiest if you work on what you want

I’m not sure that’s true. Perhaps the right conclusion would be “we were wrong
that _it would be best for the company_ if you work on what you want”.

~~~
smabie
I mean, you think people are happy when they never get to finish their
projects and no one ever gets to play their games? I certainly wouldn't be. In
fact, I would start to question what I was doing with my life.

~~~
erulabs
My grandmother always said “if you want to have an unhappy life: just do
whatever you want all the time”, and I think about it a lot when finishing a
project. The first 50% of any project is so fun - the rest is hard work!

------
_pmf_
Translation: "we were wrong that letting you work on what you want will make
us happiest"

------
BlahGod420
So...Half-Life 3 confirmed?

------
mesa8
I'm surprised they worked with

Geoff Keighley ⊂ (Mountain-Dew ∪ Dorito)

~~~
Trasmatta
They've worked with him many times. He's done similar "Final Hours of..."
projects for the original Half-Life, Half-Life 2, and Portal 2. He's had a
close relationship with Valve for decades now.

