Ask HN: Why aren't programmers unionized? - raziel2701
======
confounded
Because demand outstrips supply. Though tech companies have conspired to pay
us below what we're worth in market terms[1], it's still very comfortable.

Increasingly, I think some kind of professional association would be useful,
largely to represent _programmers '_ views regarding how technology affects
society.

There's a pretty clear disconnect (visible on HN), between the interests of
the programming-classes, and the exec/VC strata.

However, it's the latter group that always get to provide a sound-byte as the
voice of technology in the news, to legislators, etc. etc.

Having a well-respected professional organization for the programming-classes
could help shift the representation of _" the tech industry"_ towards it's
people and away from it's money, with regards to public debates about data
autonomy, open standards, net neutrality, and privacy legislation.

[1] Most notably: [https://pando.com/2014/01/23/the-techtopus-how-silicon-
valle...](https://pando.com/2014/01/23/the-techtopus-how-silicon-valleys-most-
celebrated-ceos-conspired-to-drive-down-100000-tech-engineers-wages/)

~~~
RandomOpinion
> _Having a well-respected professional organization for the programming-
> classes could help shift the representation of "the tech industry" towards
> it's people and away from it's money, with regards to public debates about
> data autonomy, open standards, net neutrality, and privacy legislation._

Doesn't that already exist in the form of the Association for Computing
Machinery ([http://www.acm.org/](http://www.acm.org/))? They cover all the
areas you mention and more.

~~~
confounded
I stand enlightened!

------
Chyzwar
Because skill differ too much.

It is easy to create union in manufacturing because everyone is doing roughly
the same thing. There is very small variation in skill in majority of workers.
It is similar in Law or Medicine where you have standards and exams for these
professions.

In programming you can have home growth hacker that produce just another PHP
website every week or Machine Learning expert working with distributed
systems, publishing papers or contributing to projects like TensorFlow. It
will be extremely difficult to persuade both of them to take the same stance
on earning or job protection. One is remote developer making 20k per year and
second is Google developer making 300k.

Union represent group of people, but it is important to remember that you
transfer part of decision power to Union in exchange for better bargaining
power. Google developers do not need Union because they have high personal
value, they can easily change jobs and still make a lot of money. PHP/Web
developers that are commodity would benefit from Union but disparity on skill
and background will make it impossible to happen.

In general Union are for people that are insecure about theirs jobs. In many
cases Unions are actually harmful. Teachers Union in my home country makes
impossible to fire bad teachers. It is major issue where instead of teaching
results, tenure is more important. Train workers unions are equally bad, low
skilled workers demand high compensation.

------
coreyp_1
The better question would probably be: Programmers, why don't you want to
unionize?

While I see the benefits of unions, I also see the cost of them. Namely, I
refuse to condone an action (establish a union and require membership in order
to be legally employed) that limits the ability of another human being to feed
his or her family, should they disagree with joining the union.

Unions, as of late, have been overtly political in action. If someone
disagrees with that political activity, then they should not be forced to join
the union (with whom they disagree) just to be able to provide for their
families.

~~~
pastProlog
> they should not be forced to join the union (with whom they disagree) just
> to be able to provide for their families.

But you're obviously OK with people being forced to join corporations (with
whom they disagree) just to be able to provide for their families.

~~~
coreyp_1
"forced to join corporations"? What on Earth are you talking about?

I believe in freedom, including freedom to work for whomever you choose, or
freedom to be self-employed, if you choose.

What have I said that implies that I'm OK with people being forced to join
corporations?

------
Decade
Because of historical accident, a lot of us come from families that distrust
unions. I grew up on stories about how unions are greedy for money, which they
use to fund liberal social causes, and also create wasteful regulations, and
ultimately destroy industries. The Schlock Mercenary comic, week of June 18,
2001, is an example of our attitude to unions. [0]

And by pushing for labor-saving technology and measurable outcomes, that makes
us villains to the unions. Capital trying to cut labor out of the economy.
It’s sad that unions discount intellectual contribution so much, but that’s
often the way it is.

[0][http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-06-18](http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-06-18)

~~~
Kepler-306e
Do you have any more resources for this that's more than just a comic? I hear
similar things as well but am never sure if it's just propaganda by those who
are negatively effected by a union's intended purpose.

~~~
Decade
I don’t keep my sources around, and actually a number of the stories that my
parents used to tell, I’ve come to believe are distortions or fabrications.
The tricky part is figuring out where are the inaccuracies. You cannot trust
the popular media’s historical accounts. They mangle the truth of everything
else they report (try listening to reports on anything sciency), often
deliberately (journalistic integrity, telling things the way they are, has
always been a convenient fiction, even before deconstructionism, but it used
to be not hidden).[0] Why should you trust their truth on union history? But a
part of union animosity is a matter of interpretation.

Unions sometimes resort to coercion to get their members. In the case of
California, this is no secret: Get a job in a public school, and you pay union
dues, even if you do not join the union. They wrote that into the contract, on
the basis that your pay depends on the union’s negotiation, so the union gets
its share.[1]

Some of the stories are harder to corroborate, from the age before ubiquitous
cell phone recordings. Some of the more blatant incidents actually did make it
into the historical archive.[2] Some of the more disturbing stories didn’t,
such as the story of Cesar Chávez and his union enforcers raping the families
of farm workers who refused to join his union. Did that happen? I don’t know
for sure.

Unions promoting social causes that roughly half of Americans do not want,
this is also no secret. The national teachers unions are the most blatant
about this.[3]

Unions forcing wasteful regulations, this is also no secret. Excessive
mandatory staff on public transit.[4][5] Rejection of technological
upgrades.[6] Using coercion to force use of overpriced labor.[7]

And the big automakers and the entire cities of Vallejo, Stockton, and Detroit
going bankrupt, a part of that was pension plans won by unions.[8][9][10] The
operation was a success, but the patient died.

[0][https://history.state.gov/milestones/1866-1898/yellow-
journa...](https://history.state.gov/milestones/1866-1898/yellow-journalism)

[1][http://www.npr.org/2016/01/11/462607980/scotuspublicunions](http://www.npr.org/2016/01/11/462607980/scotuspublicunions)

[2][http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/03/strikebreake...](http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/03/strikebreakers-
called-scabs/)

[3][https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=L1300](https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=L1300)

[4][https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2012-08-27/labor-
rul...](https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2012-08-27/labor-rules-snarl-
u-s-commuter-trains)

[5][http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-
do...](http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-dont-we-know-
where-all-the-trains-are/415152/)

[6][https://www.flexport.com/blog/port-automation-oakland-
rotter...](https://www.flexport.com/blog/port-automation-oakland-rotterdam/)

[7][http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-sac-labor-enviro-
hous...](http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-sac-labor-enviro-
housing-20160524-snap-story.html)

[8][http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/10/pf/vallejo-
pensions/](http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/10/pf/vallejo-pensions/)

[9][http://www.reuters.com/article/us-stockton-bankruptcy-
cause-...](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-stockton-bankruptcy-cause-
idUSBRE8621DL20120703)

[10][http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-
city/201...](http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-
city/2015/12/09/detroit-city-finances-one-year-bankruptcy/77063402/)

------
Spooky23
I've been a unionized programmer and system administrator. The level of
competence/incompetence was about the same as anywhere else.

The positive was that there was compensation transparency and it was difficult
for the employer to screw is in many circumstances.

Why don't we have programmers in unions more often? The political winds
shifted, and companies figured out how to push employee buttons. People think
they are better individual negotiators (total bullshit), and management has
everyone competing against each other. As long as you're an ambitious little
bastard fighting for scraps with your stack ranked colleagues, you're on a
leash.

------
foobar000001
Because programmers tend to be intelligent -- the exact opposite of the
requirement of unionization.

~~~
matthewhall
Thank you!

------
bdcravens
As a career, programming is a low risk and high paying career. (I mean real
risk - like you could get injured and lose your ability to earn a livelihood)
Additionally, it can be done anywhere in many situations. So there's no need
and little bargaining power.

------
Kepler-306e
If this was a serious option I would do this in a heartbeat. The amount of
exploitation that goes on in our industry is perverse, and programmers don't
seem to stand up for themselves much. Even at Google, supposedly the best job
out there, we get stack ranked, and Sergey pushing us to work 60 hour weeks
for extended periods. Makes me wonder where I went wrong in life.

~~~
Decade
I love this quote from Douglas Crockford:

There’s something wrong with us. I used to think that everybody should learn
programming. … I don’t think that anymore. I think there has to be something
seriously wrong with you in order to do this work. That a normal person, once
they've looked into the abyss, will say, I'm done. This is stupid. I'm going
to go do something else. But not us. Because there's something really wrong
with us.

~~~
Kepler-306e
So you're thinking the reason people don't push back much on the 60 hour week
is because of a personality type that simply can't stop programming? It's
possible... However there's a big difference between building something for
yourself, and building something for your boss, and unfortunately I feel the
difference.

------
CM30
I think a lot of programmers see themselves as more independent, and kind of
distrust things that take away said independence like unions or accreditation.

So they'd worry about a union bringing about things like Global Rule One (from
the Screen Actors Guild) where union talent can't work in a non union
environment (or vice versa). Or that joining a union would somehow become
mandatory, like it is in some other industries.

In other words, they like how anyone can get into programming, that you don't
need a specific degree or to pass a specific test to start and that it's up to
the worker to choose what company or organisation they want to work for. And
they worry that if programmers were unionised, this would stop being possible
somewhere down the line.

That and they're decently well paid anyway. So they might think they need a
union less than say, factory workers or public transport drivers.

------
bjourne
I am. And most developers in Sweden are. If you meant to ask "Why aren't
programmers _in the United States_ unionized?" then you should specify that.
:)

~~~
eecks
Do you have a specific union for programmers?

------
Fej
The point of unions is to give workers bargaining power where they previously
had little or none. In programming, good talent is in short supply and there
are plenty of job openings. As a result, the worker holds all of the chips,
eliminating the need for a union at the present time.

~~~
lsiebert
While true for many programmers, this means that how much you are paid has
more to do with negotiation skills and willingness to interview different
places then your actual ability to do your job. Plus a good union could keep
people getting paid market rate so they stay, quite possibly saving the
company money and time if you consider recruitment interviews and training.

~~~
user5994461
> how much you are paid has [more] to do with negotiation skills and
> willingness to interview different places [than your actual ability to do
> your job]

That is how it works indeed. Most programmers ignore that or refuse to
acknowledge it.

Unions can only standardize on the lowest common denominator, which is utter
shit in programming jobs.

What's an union gonna do? Make a law to force 10 people startups to give more
than 0.001% equity and another to tell programmers that they can freely go
home after 80 hours a week?

------
strathmeyer
Because we aren't happy with our jobs and want better ones and unions are
about helping people keep jobs they don't plan on moving on from.

------
Raed667
Tunisian engineers (including software engineers) have a national union. It is
a corrupt, useless, greedy organisation.

But the intentions behind its creation (on paper) are to protect the
"engineering trade".

------
p333347
The connotation of the word 'union' is of a group of poor laborers, often
working in harsh environment, coming together for fight against arbitrariness
of their rich employers with regards to matters such as salary, job security,
accident compensation etc. I think it is fair to assume that even the lowest
paid programmer is still paid at least above the average national pay in
(most) developed/developing countries. Even those programmers that sulk at not
being paid "enough" know that they are actually quite well off compared to
most others in their society. Any grievance is highly individualized and will
be negotiated directly by that person, with their lawyer if necessary. So
union doesn't seem necessary.

Further, programmers actively look to change jobs whereas typical people
needing union look to holding on to their jobs till retirement as much as
possible. A programmer could also go freelance and charge whatever he likes.
Exploiting loopholes in the current job contract, programmers could even do
consultation or host a revenue earning webapp as a side business. A union like
setup seems to be a hindrance to such activities more than being useful.

Finally, most programmers are highly opinionated and always seem to disagree
on everything, not just programming things. It would be a miracle for a thing
like a programmer union to even exist. :P

------
exclusiv
Programmers know their value and there's too much talent globally.

Why would you deal with a union if you didn't have to (both sides)?

------
usgroup
I'm not sure if a union is the way to go but at least some sort of binding
institution to reduce the amount of ephemeral standards and ephemeral tech in
the profession would be something I could get behind.

I think programming governance is much closer to fashion than engineering, and
the void is filled with a plethora of interested parties legitimate and
otherwise, peddling wisdom and otherwise, in varying quantity.

------
AnimalMuppet
Because they don't want to be. And who's going to make them?

Why don't they want to be? Because they don't see any value in being in a
union.

And why don't they see any value? Perhaps because unions are bureaucratic, and
programmers _hate_ bureaucracy. Why would they want to have to deal with
another one?

------
bbcbasic
Because it would be a discriminated union.

(Ok I'll get coat)

------
kwhitefoot
It seems that people here are answering a slightly different question, namely:
Why aren't programmers in the USA unionized.

------
matthewhall
Programmers make plenty.

------
gjolund
Programmers don't suffer from a lack of leverage and bargaining power.

I regularly renegotiate my salary and benefits, and I have no desire to share
any of that with a union.

If you are a programmer and you are not making what you think you deserve you
have no one to blame but yourself.

