
China Doesn't Understand the Concept of American Chinese Food (2014) - prostoalex
https://munchies.vice.com/en_us/article/china-doesnt-understand-the-concept-of-american-chinese-food
======
nostrademons
My dad's a Chinese immigrant, and I've been to China and had Chinese food
there.

There are two types of Chinese food you can get in America (well, more given
all the regional variations, but I'm making a point...). If you went to a
strip mall, walked into a P.F. Chang's, and had General Tso's Chicken, that's
not Chinese food. But if you walked into an unmarked doorway in Chinatown,
walked down a flight of stairs to a very dingy basement, held up a few fingers
to tell the hostess how many people were in your party, and then ordered off a
menu where nothing was in English and everything either had tendons or organ
meat - you're probably getting something pretty close to what you would get in
China.

You can get the latter experience in most major metropolitan areas in the U.S.
and Canada, but you have to know where to look. Restaurants like that don't
send out coupons with the normal advertising circular - basically anything
that advertises in an English-language publication is American Chinese food.

~~~
wonnage
We eat meat too, primarily pork. FWIW, the PF Chang's menu has a couple of
dishes reminiscent of actual Chinese food, even if the execution is slightly
different - salt & pepper prawns, pepper steak, fried chicken wings, pretty
much all of the soups...

The problem is that "Chinese food" as a category is really an enormous
oversimplification, and even in China you can go to a place and be
disappointed ordering something they don't know how to make. Furthermore,
Chinese dish names are essentially the ingredients + main method of
preparation, which while unambiguous in Chinese, sound quite mysterious and
unappealing when literally translated (e.g, one of my favorite dishes, 'boiled
fish'). So ordering in english is kind of a crapshoot.

Therefore, I always feel an obligation to defend the PF Chang's and Panda
Expresses of the world when this topic comes up. To someone outside of China,
what is Chinese food, other than something Chinese people like to eat? Perhaps
it's illustrative to point out that in China, you go to "Western food"
restaurants to eat anything perceived as coming from that general direction...

Oh, and there are "nice" restaurants that aren't in the basement too. Chinese
immigrants are overall much wealthier than they used to be, and the
restaurants that cater to them have gotten more upscale as well. The dingy
basement thing has kind of become a second niche in big cities, for
adventurous Americans in search of authenticity.

~~~
LoSboccacc
That's a common theme about regional flavors: they need to be adapted to local
tastes.

Just ask autochthonous Italians eating abroad - every single Italian
restaurant serve plates that are too greasy, too flavored, too spicy or
whatever. And you can't get a good cup of coffee almost anywhere around the
world, because outside of Italy the burnt flavor is often praised as a brew
having 'character'.

But that's fine, because Italian flavors are not really to the liking of
Englishmen and vice versa. Carbonara being made with cream instead of egg is
often done not because the places can't look a recipe off internet, but
because that's what locals expect in term of flavor and consistency.

Likewise for the absurdly loaded pizzas with three dozen ingredients: it
tastes great both ways and I'm not gonna tell the One Italian Way is superior,
but Italians are more used to a single strong flavor per plate, while abroad
that'd be just plain and boring. So everything adapts.

I dab in international dishes at home, but if a Mexican would eat my chili
he'd have a stroke - but for other Italians? They all say it's super, because
it's modulated to our taste.

~~~
jmiserez
The trouble is that if you actually traveled to some of these places and
really liked the food, most of the "adapted" stuff just tastes bland. Some
adjustments due to availability of ingredients I can live with, but most of
the time the adapted version is just a slightly worse version of the original.

In part, this is also a problem of not having enough names for things. I guess
there would be much less arguments over pizza if the Italian and American
versions just had completely different names.

In the end, if I order an "Italian" pizza I actually do expect it to be made
according to the One Italian Way, and would be disappointed if it's not.

~~~
dagw
_most of the "adapted" stuff just tastes bland._

I don't think anyone could accuse for example American Italian food of being a
"bland" copy of the original. Italian food tends to be more subtle in flavour
and with more focus on accentuating a single ingredient. American Italian is
much bigger bolder flavors often mixing several strong flavours. You can argue
that it's simplistic, boring and perhaps even unrefined if you're in that sort
of mood, but hardly bland.

 _I actually do expect it to be made according to the One Italian Way_

Except I've had fair amount of pizza in Italy and there is no One Italian Way.

~~~
jmiserez
I agree. When I say bland I don't literally mean bland as in non-spicy/tastes-
like-nothing, but rather a bland experience. In the sense of uninteresting,
dull, unexciting. I'd say that often happens exactly because of overpowering
flavours.

Also agree on the pizza, of course there is no single Italian way. But you
would hardly expect e.g. a deep-dish pizza when there.

~~~
LoSboccacc
that's still a naming issue, we eat plenty of what'd you call deep dish pizza,
but mostly we call them 'quiche' or 'torte salate'

[http://ricette.donnamoderna.com/torta-salata-in-
rosso](http://ricette.donnamoderna.com/torta-salata-in-rosso)

[http://lericettedisimona.blogspot.it/2013/09/torta-salata-
ma...](http://lericettedisimona.blogspot.it/2013/09/torta-salata-mascarpone-
pancetta-e.html)

now recipes usually call for a base which is different from pizza's, but
that's mostly convenience because you can get good one out of common stores.

------
alkonaut
This is exactly the same with Italian food: even though the US is full of
people of Italian descent, that doesn't change the fact that the Olive Garden
menu baffles Italians.

Italian-American is a different kitchen. Just like British-Indian food. Or
Tex-Mex.

Sometimes these adaptations are pretty good (the British Indian food, which is
what everyone outside india thinks of as "Indian food" is pretty good!) but
for some reason the US-chinese, US-Italian and US-Mexican (Tex-Mex) cuisine is
an embarrassment to the originals.

~~~
ajross
> This is exactly the same with Italian food

This is exactly the same with __all __food, everywhere. Cultures appropriate
and modify stuff they get from other cultures, continually. Americans did it
with Chinese, sure. And also Italian as you point out. And Mexican. And
Japanese (the modern conception of "fancy maki rolls" is mostly an American
export). And the Italians did it too! And the Mexicans! And the Chinese!

The confusion of "authenticity" with "quality" in the comments here is really
embarassing. Find good food. Eat it. Sometimes that's a traditional recipe and
sometimes it's a recent synthesis.

~~~
Chathamization
> The confusion of "authenticity" with "quality" in the comments here is
> really embarassing.

I don't necessarily disagree, but a lot of the time "authentic" can be a
decent indicator of quality. In my experience, the best food comes from people
who actually eat the food themselves and people who are making the food for
motivations other than simple monetary motivations. That's the issue with a
lot of "inauthentic" food - the people who make it don't necessarily like it
or enjoy eating it, but and are often making it to appeal to what they view as
the norm for the surrounding culture in an attempt to make more money.

It's not that non-authentic food can't be great, it's just that often times
it's more of a cheap cash-grab. It's the same reason you wouldn't expect food
at a movie theater or sports stadium to be great (though there are
exceptions).

I don't think it's even about what country you're in. You have similar
situations with American food in downtown Manhattan, Italian food in downtown
Rome, Chinese food in Shanghai, etc., leading to a lot of low quality food in
those places. I actually had more luck finding good, authentic Chinese food
when I was traveling through the tourist areas of Italy than I did finding
good authentic Italian food.

~~~
ajross
> the best food comes from people who actually eat the food themselves

The linked article is literally about two american expats in china who started
a restaurant to recreate the chinese-american comfort food of their youth.

...and people right here in this thread are smearing the whole concept of
"chinese-american comfort food" with this crazy authenticity frame.

I mean, come on folks: orange chicken and chow mein are pretty decent food on
occasion. Lots of people like them. Their existence has in some small way
advanced the way people (not even just americans) think about food. Don't eat
it if you don't like it, but don't dismiss it as a "cheap cash grab" either.

------
echevil
Yeah, American Chinese food is mostly Cantonese, which is only one of the
eight major cuisines in China. Even if it were exactly the same as Cantonese
food in China (it is not, apparently), it would still be unfamiliar to most
Chinese people

~~~
scruple
And, even then, there is an undeniable Western influence on quite a bit of
"modern" Cantonese food, even in Hong Kong itself.

------
tuna-piano
In the reverse, this is what I got when I ordered a burger at a basketball
game in China. I think of this burger when I try and empathize with how other
cultures feel when America adapts their cuisine:

[https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5dDMxJP_n1aVWFmby0ydlJfbW8...](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5dDMxJP_n1aVWFmby0ydlJfbW8/view)

Also, here's a video of Chinese people trying Panda Express (American Chinese
fast food) for the first time:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo59LlkTDe4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo59LlkTDe4)

~~~
lvturner
That burger to me looks like it's actually a 肉夹馍 (rou jia mo) - which is often
mistranslated as a burger or a "Chinese Burger" if done right they are really
tasty... unfortunately this particular example looks a little stomach churning

Edit: wife has corrected me, it's a 馅饼 (xian bing) - roughly translated as a
minced meat pancake/pie!

~~~
Markoff
roujiamo is always open (sliced and filled with meat)

if it's completely sealed it's gonna be some of million kinds of bing

personally i consider everything inferior to donkey sandwich

------
rinka_singh
:-p China would NEVER understand the concept of Indian Chinese food either.
We've changed the traditional Chinese food so significantly that...

And it is the second most popular "cuisine" in India after traditional Indian
food.

~~~
marak830
Oh I hadn't heard of that. As a chef I'm definitely going to do some research
on that! Any particular favourites?

~~~
ninju
The cuisine is called Indo-Chinese food...it's a fusion of Chinese dishes with
Indian spices and vis-versa. It has come about because "close" border between
China and India (in the north east)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Chinese_cuisine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Chinese_cuisine)

It is similar to the term __Tex-Mex __which a fusion of Mexican food with
American tastes

~~~
wtvanhest
I feel like trinidad also has an indo chinese feel to their food. I think they
had immigrants from both countries. Absolutely awesome food.

~~~
andybak
Hmmmm. I had beef-filled Roti in Tobago. That was incredible.

------
inopinatus
I'm married to a first-generation offspring of Chinese parents, a source of
regular and scathing remarks on how what is served in the US as "Chinese food"
is often a many-generations-removed facsimile thereof.

Three items in particular (Chop Suey, Chow Mein and General Tso Chicken)
receive very special ridicule and their appearance on a menu can effectively
disqualify any restaurant from further consideration. As the spouse of the
above-mentioned I consider it essential that I can avert any incipient noodle
deficiency crisis; there are a very few joints - so few I can count them on
two fingers - between SFO and San Jose that have received grudging consent and
pre-approval for takeout.

(It probably doesn't help that we generally reach SFO or LAX via a layover in
HKG or SIN)

~~~
nitwit005
There is a lot of ego around food when it gets tied to identity. Your spouse
is probably rejecting many restaurants that are run by immigrants cooking
recepies brought over.

~~~
zhemao
Seriously, though. California, and the Bay Area specifically, is one of the
best places in the US to find authentic Chinese food. OP's spouse is just a
snob. Sure, a lot of restaurants feel the need to put some "standard" dishes
like General Tso's Chicken on the menu, just in case. You don't have to order
those. Outside of tourist traps like SF Chinatown, Chinese restaurants mainly
serve Chinese food to a predominantly Chinese clientele.

~~~
awl130
uhhh, I disagree with your assessment of him/her as a snob. I go to San
Gabriel Valley every weekend for dinner and lunch, and I've never seen any of
those things on the menu anywhere. Chinese food in SF is abysmal. I'm not a
snob, I'm not even Chinese.

~~~
inopinatus
Actually she did turn to me after I had been complaining about my cultural
equivalent (that is, the quality of American coffee) in the car yesterday and
say "darling we are both terrible snobs". So I think you are right. We're
picky, we have selective high expectations, and we're not afraid to grumble
when those expectations aren't met.

What's the difference between a snob and a connoisseur? You should taste the
terrible coffee I make myself.

------
whack
I never understood this fascination with food-authenticity. When it comes to
food, there are only 2 things that matter:

\- Is it healthy?

\- Does it taste good to me?

If something is healthy and delights your taste buds, then why bother trying
to find out whether it's _authentic_? Conversely, why force yourself to eat
something you enjoy less, just because it happens to be " _authentic_ " or
because _" other people like it"_? Who cares if the stuff you're eating is
highly evolved/bastardized from the original, as long as you like it?

~~~
jclos
Maybe it's the inner Frenchman in me talking (food is very important here),
but food doesn't have to just be fuel for your body, it's also a door to the
local culture and a social ritual. Tasting different things and eating in an
authentic setting can help open your mind, much like learning a foreign
language or living abroad in a different culture.

And besides, by educating your palate with tastes that do not exist in your
country you can discover things that you would never have thought you would
like.

~~~
whack
I agree completely with trying out different cuisines and recipes. You'd have
to be a very boring/close-minded person if you refuse to try new dishes. But
that doesn't mean that you should force yourself to eat dishes that you've
tried and disliked, just because it's "authentic". Or that you should stop
eating something you enjoy just because it isn't "authentic".

Ironically enough, this very obsession with authenticity stunts the evolution,
innovation and diversity of cuisines. As a foodie, I consider this to be the
real tragedy.

~~~
jclos
Some dishes deserve to be insisted upon and revisited multiple times in my
opinion, but it's a case by case basis. Some tastes can grow on you (in my
case some organ meat tasted quite bad at first), and often your tastes change
and mature with time, but I agree that obsessing over a particular dish is not
a healthy relationship to have with food.

There is also a degree related to it: while you can develop a taste for say,
for example, some dish you found originally bland (it was the case for an
Indian friend of mine who came to Europe from a place where spicy is the
norm), I doubt it would happen for something you found utterly revolting.

I am personally all for fusion food and experimenting as long as the original
meals are preserved. I am for enriching, but against replacing.

------
wluu
Not really a surprise. It's the same story elsewhere around the world. They
had to adapt to survive. They firstly adapted local ingredients with
techniques and flavours of home to cater to their fellow migrants, then they'd
start adding some new dishes based on what they perceived as local tastes to
try to attract the "native" population when just catering to their fellow
migrants wasn't enough to survive.

How close a restaurants' dishes are to "authentic" ones depends largely on how
many generations removed the chef is from their homeland.

Anyway, I'm of Chinese descent. First generation in my family born in
Australia, but several more removed from China. So while the food that my
family cooks retains Chineseness it also contains influences from the
countries that my parents grew up in mixed in with ingredients that were
sourceble in Melbourne, Australia in the 80s. That said, due to the relative
distance of Australia to Asia during the mid to late 90s, more ingredients
came in as the post-Vietnam war migrants settled here and had become further
established in the community (so had capital to spend on luxuries like
imported ingredients).

Some links that may be of interest: \-
[http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-21/humble-chinese-
diner-m...](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-21/humble-chinese-diner-mapped-
by-food-historians/7187218) \-
[http://www.chia.chinesemuseum.com.au/biogs/CH01148b.htm](http://www.chia.chinesemuseum.com.au/biogs/CH01148b.htm)
\- Chifa (Chinese Peruvian Cuisine)
[https://immigrationtalk.org/2013/07/17/chifa-the-story-
behin...](https://immigrationtalk.org/2013/07/17/chifa-the-story-behind-
authentic-peruvian-chinese-food/) \-
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_Chinese_cuisine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_Chinese_cuisine)

------
BurningFrog
All Chinese regions have their own variation of the major Chinese cuisines.

You can think of the different versions of it outside China as regional
variations as well.

------
treehau5
I think most countries are blown away by America's portions. They are just
insanely huge some times. They are so big, even some places that do "small
plates" or tapas are still too big.

------
Svekax
As offensive as saying the Spanish don't understand the concept of burritos.

~~~
VLM
A far better comparison would be the Taco Bell Chalupa which shares the name
with a Mexican dish but has nothing in common with the Mexican dish.

Taco Bell, much like American-Chinese food, or McDonalds, accelerated past
cultural escape velocity a long time ago.

See also the concept of American Lite-Beer-like-beverage vs German Beer.

The concept of cultural escape velocity applies to more aspects of culture
than just food.

------
candiodari
Funny thing about international food. It's not very international at all.

French food is great ... except in France it's very different (and outside of
the center of Paris sucks pretty bad)

Turkish fast food, specifically Kebab, is as far as I know a German invention
taken up by Turks, rather than something that historically existed in Turkey.
Now you might say shaved roasted meat existed there, and you'd be right, but
that existed pretty much anywhere, and was prepared very differently. Shish
kabob are sticks with goat meat. Sucks that I can't find the typical bread
they serve Kebab in in Western Europe anywhere here in Asia.

Chinese food in Asia is SO much better than Chinese food in Europe. Cheap
Chinese food in Hong Kong is edible to great (esp. the vegetarian stuff is
nice). Cheap Chinese food in Paris ... you'll be sick for days.

But there's very little French about French cuisine in SE Asia. Their idea of
traditional French cooking: a steak, with a fat edge attached to it, medium
rare, with "edges" (really thick fries thickly covered in spices). No sauce.
Great French food in France: a clean steak (no fat or nerves or sinews), one
of a few sauces made with cream, meat juice and pepper, bearnaise. Thinly cut
(not mcdonalds thin, but still far thinner) fries, a good portion of mixed
salad, and some cooked vegetable preparation.

~~~
jaredklewis
My favorite example of this is Japanese sushi. In Japan, where totally fresh
fish is abundant and easy to purchase, the focus is entirely on the fish and
rice. Most every dish is just raw fish and rice.

There are simple rolls which wrap, fish and rice in seaweed. Sometimes wa few,
sparse other ingredients like shallots or cucumbers make there way into the
roll.

Then, Sushi gets taken to America, and what I can only assume was a creative
solution to the problem of limited access to fresh fish, sushi was transformed
into the decadent "maki" rolls that dominate sushi menus in the US. Cheese,
fruits, vegetables, fish, meats. US maki rolls that have nearly a dozen
ingredients are not uncommon.

Both styles of sushi are amazing, though very different. More like cousins
than the same type of cuisine.

Reminds me of how cocktails were invented during prohibition to mask the bad
taste of moonshine. Japanese shushi is to American maki what wine is to
martinis.

I think when cuisines get transported to foreign counties, they get changed to
adapt to their new environment.

~~~
m_mueller
Actually rice is _the_ main focus in Japanese Sushi - it needs to be treated
perfectly - soft and grained, yet sticky enough to just hold together, with
salt and vinegar added to a point, pressed and eaten very quickly. Fish is
just there to round off the rice. That's why Sushi chefs train for years just
preparing the rice - cutting fish is the last step to learn.

~~~
sooheon
I'm sure rife is important, but you're way over correcting. Fish is just there
to round off the rice? Please.

~~~
m_mueller
I stand by my comment. Any trained Sushi chef knows how to cut the fish
properly, all they need is access to a good wholesale fish market like Tsukiji
or one of its resellers to offer you some very nice fish - but the way they
treat the rice is where you see the biggest difference between a trained sushi
chef and a master. No matter where you go in Japan it's still way beyond what
you'd get in expensive places abroad with a high likelihood though.

~~~
sidegrid
How long can it take to learn how to cook rice? Couple of hours?

~~~
m_mueller
Here's a start:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamae)

>It is a common Japanese legend that the truly great itamae-san ("san" is an
honorific suffix) should be able to create nigirizushi in which all of the
rice grains face the same direction.

While that's definitely an exaggeration, it gives you an idea of the
importance of rice in Japanese sushi. Basically, it's taking something that's
naturally chaotic (like cooked rice grains that just stick together in
whatever fashion), and bring their entropy down to become something ordered by
using the most efficient motions possible. For that purpose they use hand fans
and wood to control the moisture as well as very finely trained hand motions
to control the shape of the nigiri as well as the alignments of the grains.

All of that, just so the guest can pick it up with his/her chopsticks, and
have it effortlessly fall apart in the mouth, in an explosion of flavour, like
a two stage guided cluster bomb targeting your taste buds ;-).

So, yes, you _could_ probably just use an automatic cooker for the cooking
process (although the masters sneeze at that of course, but it sure is
standard in Japan nowadays up to a certain price level) - but cooking is the
easy part, the fun starts after that.

------
mc32
I don't think I've ever had chop suey. I used to see canned "chop suey" in NY
supermarkets. Never seen them in SF bay area --granted I have not sought it
out.

I may just have to try it out some day and see what the fuss is all about.
Maybe it's the east coast version of Kung Pao chicken (i.e. a quintessential
dish)

Speaking of east coast dishes I don't see in the SF bay area are NY style
calzones or knishes.

~~~
diego_moita
Chop Suey is not a dish. It is basically "Cantonese people that were not very
experienced cooks, trying to cook to North Americans". It means very different
things in each state of US and province in Canada.

See more here: [http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/chop-
suey-...](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/chop-suey-
nation/article30539419/)

------
hindsightbias
Cantonese in the US didn't get Hunan themselves until Henry Chung brought it:
[http://www.sfchronicle.com/restaurants/article/Henry-
Chung-H...](http://www.sfchronicle.com/restaurants/article/Henry-Chung-
Hunanese-culinary-pioneer-dies-at-99-11098119.php)

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Even crazier when you look at the map and see Hunan is just north of
Guangdong.

------
orblivion
What doesn't add up to me is the idea that American Chinese food evolved from
the 1800s, yet every legit Chinese restaurant has owners who have a heavy
Chinese accent, clearly from China themselves. Did they come here and so
quickly adapt to what was expected from "Chinese" food?

~~~
boomboomsubban
My experience has been that very few Chinese restaurants are owned by Chinese
immigrants, most are from some other country.

There are a handful of "Chinese" food distributors in the US that provide for
most restaurants. It's more akin to opening a McDonald's.

~~~
sdiupIGPWEfh
Having never eaten at two Chinese restaurants with even remotely the same
food, I find that hard to swallow. At least in my part of the eastern US,
Chinese food quality varies wildly.

~~~
boomboomsubban
Easiest to tell with the chicken dishes, and even with the same food source
the quality varies wildly. Chefs, amounts of ingredients, freshness and other
things still influence things, similar to fast food.

Distribution still doesn't have the greatest online presence, but here's one
of the east coast distributors. [http://nywtc.com](http://nywtc.com)

------
wrp
I'm curious as to why American-Chinese food changed between the 1970s and
1990s. In my area, I started noticing the change in the late 1980s. Egg foo
young largely disappeared and egg rolls were replaced by spring rolls. My
impression of the newer style dishes was that they had less meat, were
greasier, and were generally more well-done. The last time I had good egg foo
young or egg rolls was almost 30 years ago.

I had assumed the change was due to a massive wave of immigration in the
1980s. But if all of the food was a deliberate creation for the American
market, why didn't they stick with what was already popular?

------
5555624
Although her TED talk is linked, there is no mention of Jennifer8. Lee's book,
"The Fortune Cookie Chronicles." The point of the book is that American-
Chinese food and Chinese food in China are different. (The book was published
the same year as her talk, 2008; which is six years before this article
originally appeared.)

------
diego_moita
For a wonderful story of Chop Suey (North American "Chinese" food) in Canada:

[http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/chop-
suey-...](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/chop-suey-
nation/article30539419/)

------
mozumder
What's the process of starting a company in China as a foreigner? Is it
something the government there encourages? Are visas for those easy to get?
What about incorporating?

------
bingomad123
China does not understand American Chinese Food ? Wait till they find the
monstrosity called "Chinese Bhel" an Indian Chinese food.

~~~
notahacker
Or get served _Aeropuerto_ (a wonton sitting on top of an enormous pile of
rice, noodles, and potato chips) in a Peruvian Chinese restaurant

------
mrbill
Should say (2014), as that's when this was first published; the restaurant
talked about closed in January 2016.

~~~
azinman2
The I guess the title is even more accurate!

