
Linux-based 4G phones with Google Assistant sold for $7 in Indonesia - cunidev
https://tuxphones.com/smart-feature-phones-revolution-kai-os/
======
jeswin
Having spent a couple of years building apps for KaiOS (which is really
Firefox OS), I can say that it's probably the easiest development platform out
there - mostly pure web; with some proprietary extensions.

I wish Firefox OS hadn't thrown in the towel so early. These devices are
selling millions of units every month.

~~~
type-2
firefox os had so much potential, now with pwa's being the next big thing, it
seem like firefox os could be a game changer. Too bad they killed it.

~~~
jschwartzi
I'd be interested in this on a modern smartphone platform with a touchscreen
and virtual keyboard just to cut Google out of my life.

~~~
auslander
> just to cut Google out of my life.

Apple?

~~~
JetSpiegel
Out of the frying pan into the fire...

~~~
auslander
So it looks, but, realistically is the only option for phones. And it is not
an adtech company, you pay for hardware and software.

------
squarefoot
We're likely approaching the day when it'll be more cheap to attempt to build
an open Linux phone from scratch rather than keep waiting for a manufacturer
to listen to a few thousand techies who don't want their personal data chewed
by proprietary OSes. That milestone will almost certainly be marked by the
availability of cheap 3/4G modems (I'd be perfectly fine with 3G if it was the
only option). We're not there but chipsets are becoming cheaper with every
portable router or dongle sold, so it's a matter of time. Cheap and small
SBCs, displays, batteries and 3D printed cases are already here waiting for
the 3/4G chipset to be added.

~~~
andrey_utkin
That's right. This already is happening. I got bored of waiting for "Linux
smartphone" and accidentally found that it's actually quite easy and
affordable to build a wearable computer from scratch. And I built myself one
of course.
[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/c...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/circuitbreaker/2017/7/27/16035508/diy-
wearable-computer-google-glass-raspberry-pi-instructions)

I just used new generation of the same display, and a one handed Twiddler 3
keyboard.

Raspberry pi doesn't have cellular, so I am looking at Zero phone project
which has a solution. But so far I am already extracting value from my
wearable computer in many easily implementable use cases.

~~~
ioddly
What's battery life like? I'm building a (non-wearable) Pi with touchscreen
but haven't been able to get a good estimate.

~~~
andrey_utkin
Battery lasted for almost 4 days when I left just RPi Zero W, idling,
connected to Wifi, without X11 running.

Battery I am using is this: [https://tech.scargill.net/ravpower-the-ultimate-
pi-ups/](https://tech.scargill.net/ravpower-the-ultimate-pi-ups/)

It indeed helpfully maintains stable power output when being plugged and
unplugged from mains itself. But only on one of the output ports. Also this is
not always true when there's active power consumer on the second port. Other
than that, I'm happy I found this powerbank model.

------
morganvachon
Apart from the Google tie-in, I've been wanting a KaiOS phone ever since they
were announced. I actually miss the days of my Nokia E71; a stripped down but
modern feature phone with battery life measured in days instead of hours would
be a blessing.

Unfortunately these are not marketed at all in the Western world and probably
wouldn't work on domestic carriers.

~~~
abrowne
In the US there's the Alcatel Go Flip on T-Mobile, Sprint and AT&T (at least I
think the "Cingular Flip 2" is similar).

[https://us.alcatelmobile.com/alcatel-go-
flip/](https://us.alcatelmobile.com/alcatel-go-flip/)

FWIW it apparently uses an older, pre–Google-investment KaiOS.

~~~
morganvachon
Good to know, thanks! I may pick one up and put it on my Ting account to use
at work (my iPhone is on Xfinity Mobile for the next couple of months until I
move it back to Ting as well). I'm constantly watching my battery life at work
because I have my desk line forwarded to it (I'm never at my desk very long
until the end of the day).

Edit: It's $100 new which isn't too bad, but less than $40 open box on eBay
and other sites. That's practically impulse buy territory. I'll definitely
have to consider it.

------
cs702
Not only does GNU/Linux appear to be unkillable, it always seems to take over
every single market niche overlooked by larger, established players promoting
fully or partially proprietary stacks. And in many cases, these niche markets
end up being quite large or even mainstream. Amazing.

~~~
dontbenebby
We spent so long waiting for linux on the desktop. Turns out insurgency was
the best strategy: sit back, launch a few attacks, and wait for the desktop to
die ;)

~~~
pjmlp
The desktop has been replaced by laptops and 2-1 foldables, it won't die that
easily, specially since Android apps on tablets and 2-1 keep beinging
maximized phone apps.

~~~
JetSpiegel
> The desktop has been replaced by laptops and 2-1 foldables

Whoa, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Pholdables are not even being sold
yet, let alone "replacing the desktop".

~~~
pjmlp
Sure they are, I mean devices like the Surface.

~~~
JetSpiegel
Ah, not pholdables, laptablets? We need more classes of devices!

------
raghava
KaiOS offers a decent package.

But unfortunately, there are many things missing yet.

\- decent crypto base \- decent set of apps (with contraints on user/input
interfaces) [ as of now, there isn't an email app available yet! ]

And pretty much every phone vendor/TelCo is building a walled-garden and an
appstore on their own, considering the licensing possibilities offered by
KaiOS. Every TelCo will block sideloading of apps and restrict users from
offering a full fledged KaiOS experience, as it turned out in the Android
world.

Jio runs Jio AppStore. >> Please note: while the JioPhone runs on KaiOS, its
app store is managed by Reliance Jio and called the JioStore. For this reason,
we can’t guarantee the below apps will be available on the JioPhone, nor does
it mean apps available on the JioPhone are available in other countries.

From [https://www.kaiostech.com/meet-the-apps-available-on-
kaios/](https://www.kaiostech.com/meet-the-apps-available-on-kaios/)

~~~
Abishek_Muthian
>decent crypto base

I haven't used kaiOS, but if WhatsApp E2E encryption was possible doesn't it
mean that it has decent crypto for implementing RSA/ECC i.e just like a web
browser?

------
wicket
It's a stretch to call these "Linux-based" phones. The kernel [1] comes from
an old Android fork of Linux 3.10 which is nearly 6 years old. Android kernel
code is largely incompatible with mainline Linux which is the reason there are
very few phones that can run actually run mainline (real) Linux.

[1]
[https://github.com/kaiostech/kernel_msm-3.10](https://github.com/kaiostech/kernel_msm-3.10)

~~~
Bayart
>which is the reason there are very few phones that can run actually run
mainline (real) Linux.

You mean the drivers not being in the Linux Kernel/hard to port ? because I
have a very hard time believing most smartphones couldn't run the Linux
kernel, provided it's compiled to whatever architecture and the drivers are
there.

~~~
pjmlp
Android Linux is quite different from upstream Linux, specially after Project
Treble.

Now it looks more like a pseudo-mikrokernel, with drivers running on their own
processes, talking via Android IPC with the kernel layer.

Also it has a much more security knobs turned on as mainline, and many
features trimmed down that are irrelevant to Android userspace.

~~~
stefan_
Treble is just another layer of abstraction on top of HALs and more binder
use. Android HALs don't replace kernel drivers and so it's still the same
distance from mikrokernel as it ever was, and neither did Treble further the
split from mainline Linux.

If anything, Android 8 reduced the gap to mainline with switching e.g. to DRM
synchronization fences.

~~~
pjmlp
Reading through AOSP documentation and AOSP source code tells another story.

> Binderized HALs. HALs expressed in HAL interface definition language (HIDL).
> These HALs replace both conventional and legacy HALs used in earlier
> versions of Android. In a Binderized HAL, the Android framework and HALs
> communicate with each other using binder inter-process communication (IPC)
> calls. All devices launching with _Android 8.0 or later must support
> binderized HALs only_.

>

> Passthrough HALs. A HIDL-wrapped conventional or legacy HAL. These HALs wrap
> existing HALs and can serve the HAL in binderized and same-process
> (passthrough) modes. Devices upgrading to Android 8.0 can use passthrough
> HALs.

> All other HALs provided by the vendor image can be in passthrough OR
> binderized mode. _In a fully Treble-compliant device, all of these must be
> binderized_.

> Legacy HALs (also deprecated in Android 8.0) are interfaces that predate
> conventional HALs. A few important subsystems (Wi-Fi, Radio Interface Layer,
> and Bluetooth) are legacy HALs. While there's no uniform or standardized way
> to describe a legacy HAL, anything predating Android 8.0 that is not a
> conventional HAL is a legacy HAL. Parts of some legacy HALs are contained in
> libhardware_legacy, while other parts are interspersed throughout the
> codebase.

[https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/hal-
types](https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/hal-types)

A binderized HAL driver only requires a minimal kernel surface, if anything.

Furthermore, I specifically stated _pseudo_ on my description.

~~~
stefan_
Nothing you quoted changes anything. Yes, they added more abstraction on top
of HALs. No, that doesn't mean HALs are now any "closer to the metal" than
before.

Here are some obvious hints to why this is not true:

* there are no HALs defined for even 1/3rd of what kernel drivers you would need to run a modern device

* a bunch of the HALs require you to provide _handles obtained from standardized kernel interfaces_ (e.g. the aforementioned sync objects)

Finally, of course: all HALs run in userland! All their power is in being
granted SELinux access to various _kernel interfaces_! Vendors can not change
these rules or risk failing certification.

~~~
pjmlp
> > Legacy HALs (also deprecated in Android 8.0) are interfaces that predate
> conventional HALs. A few important subsystems (Wi-Fi, Radio Interface Layer,
> and Bluetooth) are legacy HALs.

------
Spearchucker
I have the version two Nokia 8110 banana phone with KAIOS. First, web dev
isn't good enough for me. I need crypto libraries on the device. Second,unless
I've yet to discover how to turn it on, no predictive text input. Third, it
ships with Google apps which, combined with the fact that you cannot uninstall
apps on KaiOS makes the phone a novelty at best. More like a waste of €60
(none of these issues are obvious before making a purchase).

/Edit - battery lasted two weeks between charges.

~~~
berbec
"Edit - battery lasted two weeks between charges"

Way to bury the lead! I'd put up with a lot for charge times that long. Or
just a backup phpne

~~~
hosay123
Minor nit, but I always appreciate receiving these -- in US English as well as
British I believe it's always written "bury the lede"

~~~
sdwa
I don't think that's the case. Lede is at best an alternative spelling,
according to
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paragraph#Spelling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paragraph#Spelling)

and FWIW, I'm British and I've never seen it spelt lede outside of this forum.
I guess it's an American thing, and even then, it's pretty wrong.

~~~
GordonS
FWIW, I'm British and I've only ever seen it spelt 'lead' by Americans on this
forum :)

------
Abishek_Muthian
JioPhone, which runs on KaiOS has managed to bring WhatsApp to KaiOS[1].

That was the most requested feature on JioPhone 1, when it was released &
people were ready to put more money into next cheapest android smartphone to
have it. Now, WhatsApp is available on both JioPhone1 & JioPhone2.

Obviously it is packaged standalone version of WhatsApp web. WhatsApp team has
been very successful in bring consistent performance of their apps on all
platforms they support, so I assume it works well.

[1]:[https://blog.whatsapp.com/10000649/WhatsApp-for-JioPhone-
on-...](https://blog.whatsapp.com/10000649/WhatsApp-for-JioPhone-on-KaiOS)

Edit : typo

~~~
fabrice_d
The "regular" WhatsApp web needs the app to run on your Android or iOS device
- it merely establishes a tunnel to get everything from the phone.

The KaiOS version was built from scratch.

~~~
Abishek_Muthian
I stand corrected. WhatsApp web does communicate with phone to perform regular
activities.

So the KaiOS version apart from sharing UI, might not have much common with
the WhatsApp web. Then again, I wonder how much of the tech used for secure
communication with the phone from WhatsApp web can be repurposed to make it a
standalone application?

------
icebraining
Interesting, I had completely missed KaiOS; apparently it's a successor of
FirefoxOS, based on some common components.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16461016](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16461016)

------
oneowl
Very nice project. KaiOS also runs on jio phones and they are selling really
well in India. Besides 4g these phones also have wifi support. Kai os phones
are the only feature phones(I know of) that provide wifi capabilities.

By the way I've got a question for people who've used Kai OS / firefox os. To
use google apps like youtube/ maps etc do you need to log in like in android?

~~~
muxator
Just for information, as I do not know if this suits your use case: on my
phone, LineageOS with no Play Services installed, I can watch YouTube using
Firefox + the website. Maps 10.1 can be installed via Yalp Store and works
pretty well.

~~~
ajot
For YouTube, you could also install NewPipe from FDroid. It works perfectly
99% of the time, until YouTube changes something in their page and they have
to mod the parser.

------
cunidev
Wow, #1 on home! By the way, do you have any idea if Wiz/JioPhone/... are
shipped by any seller to Europe? Would love to hack one of those

------
yoavm
The article says it supports WhatsApp, but the KaiOS publication clarifies it
does not. In many countries, that's a no go.

~~~
sametmax
Whatsapp is only very big in __some__ countries actually.

Europe have free sms, so I do have friends with telegram, signal, skype,
whatsapp, dumb phones, facebook chat, wire, etc., and at the the center of
this crazy venn diagram, we can all discuss with sms for free. Most
discussions are not group chats.

In Asia they have big whatsapp competitors like weechat. But I've seen kik
used as well.

In Africa, it's also a lot of text message since they get the best coverage.

Whatsapp is definitly popular, but far from a universal.

~~~
viraptor
It's also really popular in Australia (2nd most common after FB). Likely
underrepresented in older people.

------
azinman2
I can’t even imagine the environmental / labor horrors that must be involved
to allow for a phone to cost $7 retail.

~~~
random878
You make a very valid point. It can be easy to forget to consider
environmental cost when we consider the cost of an item.

I hate smartphones with a passion, so just use an old dumbphone. I face a lot
of pressure through work to have one though. I'm thinking that if I do
eventually get forced back into smartphone ownership I'll opt for a Fairphone
2. Major benefits being the improved environmental consideration, the ability
to run Lineage OS (so no Google), and the modular approach makes it easy to
hack/repair. Main downside is that it is very expensive (to me anyway... I get
that many people these days seem to think £1,000 is a reasonable sum for a
Facebook/Instagram PDA!).

------
robertAngst
How difficult would this be to add GIPO to?

This crushes the Raspi3 for the value.

~~~
oneowl
Yes you are correct. These phones range anything from 300-700 MB of ram and
have a pretty decent hardware. Combine that with a user operable interface
(physical buttons, screen, audio) and you've got a nice package.

I was looking a bit into this. It seems that KAI os is not an opensource
project. Plus the OS is flashed into the ROM of these phones so its also very
difficult to install a new OS reliably. So even if you got the GIPO to work
with the phone how would you actually program it? Kai OS has a device api [1]
but as far as I can tell it does not give you access to linux shell.

If the phone has a usb slot you can use a usb gipo board [2]

[1] [https://developer.kaiostech.com/api](https://developer.kaiostech.com/api)

[2][https://numato.com/product/8-channel-usb-gpio-module-with-
an...](https://numato.com/product/8-channel-usb-gpio-module-with-analog-
inputs)

~~~
robertAngst
Thoughts, since this is a real life issue/question I'm making a decision on-

>I'm quite surprised at the cost of a USB GIPO board. I suppose I shouldnt
have been.

>Developing an OS for a platform that could change at anytime, seems
risky/time consuming.

>novel ways of communication- Put everything on wifi relays, or communication
with other peripherals

Might be worth buying one of these phones and taking it apart to see whats
inside.

EDIT: Looking to select my microprocessor for a consumer product. An entire
computer would be nice.

~~~
oneowl
Os'es have been built. You don't need to spend time in that. You'll find one
as small as a few hundred kbs to as big as 10s of gbs. For all kind of
architectures and all opnsource. However you need to find a way to install the
os on compatible device. This is no easy task and will require you to flash
ROM. For every device.......

Or find a device that supports booting from an sd card. I don't think there is
any phone out there that supports that. There are not even that many laptops
that can boot from an sd card slot. But they can from an sd to usb adapter...

>novel ways of communication- Put everything on wifi relays, or communication
with other peripherals

HIGH FIVE!!!!!

This is a very good idea. But then again how will GIPO attached devices send
wifi signals and understand incoming wifi signals? You'll need a separate chip
for that (If I understand correctly) that would have radios and antennas. I'm
sure you can find a cheap way to build such a device using electronic
components that you can find online.

A wifi enabled usb is very very cheap. wifi usb cards would be even cheaper, I
think. A mobile phone like this is a complete package for about $10-$15.

------
edoo
It will probably require a plan. Walmart tried selling a $10 prepaid smart
phone and they were all bought up by tinkerers. A $10 phone means lots of
hobby and maybe even some commercial projects get a cell phone mounted as a
touchscreen interface.

~~~
ricardobeat
How is that a problem?

~~~
tacotime
Because they were sold as loss leaders on the assumption that people would be
paying for time/data on the network.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
I don’t think this phone is being sold as a loss leader, though.

~~~
icebraining
I wouldn't be so sure, though it seems more like a Amazon-type play than an
ISP pushing plans:

"Customers can get a WizPhone WP006 from vending machines at more than 10,000
Alfamart stores for just USD$7 (IDR99,000)1. Then, with the built-in
AllWizapp, customers can unlock shopping benefits in Alfamart by scanning
barcodes on each product and making their purchase directly via the app on
their WizPhone."

------
IloveHN84
Why isn't something like that in EU offered/possible? I would like this

------
ForHackernews
I saw an interesting YouTube video about KaiOS a while back:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA_g2bQgOXY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA_g2bQgOXY)

------
Dunedan
Probably worth mentioning GerdaOS
([https://gerda.tech/](https://gerda.tech/)), the first try to bring custom
ROMs to KaiOS phones.

~~~
naraic0o
So if I'm understanding right, this isn't like LineageOS[0] for Android, which
builds a system from the Android Open Source Project (AOSP)[1], but a
"romhack", or modified system? Pity. I naïvely hope that running a fully open
source system would be easier on a phone like this, since it's simpler than
the latest and greatest in the smartphone world. Realistically, they probably
still run the same radios which never have sources available.

[0] [https://lineageos.org/](https://lineageos.org/) [1]
[https://source.android.com/](https://source.android.com/)

------
mrweasel
I don't understand why the Google Assistant has to be thrown in. Beside me not
liking the idea of Google Assistant processing my request, I don't really
believe that it's a feature that many need or even request.

Of cause I'm in a non-English speaking country, so that may change the usage,
but I don't know anyone who uses Google Assistant, Siri or Cortana and only
two people who use Alexa, which technically isn't even available here.

~~~
koala_man
I use it regularly to search for things because it's often faster than typing,
and that's on a smartphone with a swipe keyboard. Compared to T9, it must be
even better.

~~~
Shebanator
Exactly this. T9 input is difficult for most people, but especially for the
customer base of the Jio phones: a lot of the people who buy these phones are
looking for content in languages they aren't necessarily fluent in, and some
are even semi-literate in their native language. Being able to send a text
message, make a call, or search for a popular video via voice input is a huge
boon for those users.

------
maxaf
Any word on US availability? There are plenty of people who don’t need an
entire iPhone, or can’t comprehend one due to age or other handicaps. It’s
good to have choices.

~~~
milankragujevic
You can buy a Nokia 8110 4G in the U.S.A. IIRC, and it's powered by KaiOS.

~~~
afandian
I tried a demo unit. It was a very disappointing experience. Hard to use,
cheap colour screen was unpleasant to look at. I really wanted to like it, but
couldn't.

Give me that phone with monochrome display, the usability of Nokia's original
OS and modern network connectivity and I'd jump at it.

------
cedivad
I couldn't understand why they were subsidising the phone, I googled a bit and
found this article saying the original article is a lie:

[https://beebom.com/fact-check-google-wizphone-
indonesia/](https://beebom.com/fact-check-google-wizphone-indonesia/)

------
lawrencegs
I am Indonesian. Its been 4 months since they announced the phone on December,
and they are still not available anywhere. I am not sure whats the hold up but
there is no other update

------
creativeCak3
Does anyone know if there are plans of these phones selling in the US? This
one-thousand dollar madness of smartphone need to be stopped.

------
Animats
This is useful. Are they on Amazon or eBay yet? A backup phone for when you
don't want to lug around a mini-tablet is useful.

------
magtux
How I wish these cheap 4G SoC kits could be sourced easily like the ESP8266 or
the Raspberry Pi.

------
mateo1
A closed-source Google-developed OS for feature phones. Obviously it's the
best spend DoD money so far. Just 20 millions. You need to track poor people
too.

~~~
i4blux
If DoD wanted to track people they can just do it by triangulating the
cellular signal. No need for a smartphone.

~~~
mateo1
If you want transcriptions, proximity indication, scanning wireless networks,
expanding your geodesic grid to accurately locate dumbphones etc, you need
custom software. This is what this is (mostly) about. Sure we can pretend it's
about "harmless" data mining but there's no such thing.

------
tootie
I'd buy a few of these for my kids.

~~~
auslander
Kids will tell you years later that it was wrong giving their data to Google,
an Ad company, with core business of monetizing people's data.

~~~
tootie
I don't see why. I wasn't using my data for anything so it seems like a win-
win if someone will pay for it. Also, NB this phone runs KaiOS, not Android.

~~~
auslander
KaiOS "now sport official Google Assistant" .. "same OS just received over
$20m funding from Google and even partnered with them"

Its the code that runs 24/7 what matters, Android or a few G services is of no
difference.

> I wasn't using my data for anything

Browsing, location, contacts, photos of friends, calendar, emails... the lot.
Goal is your full psychological profile, skills, circles, reactions, job
positions. From as much data as possible. Uses today are simple ad targeting,
maybe 3rd party screening checks. Tomorrow?

------
rb808
WebAssembly is going to make Linux phones rock. Can't wait.

~~~
pjmlp
The Web makes the underlying OS irrelevant.

~~~
ronsor
I think that may be the point

~~~
pjmlp
Running the Linux kernel would just be a pyrrhic victory, as it already
happens on Android and ChromeOS.

Any OEM would eventually just replace it for something else, preferably non
copyleft.

------
kwhitefoot
How do I get one?

~~~
icebraining
Are you in the West? Usually these types of phones appear on ebay or gearbest,
etc after some time, for a somewhat higher price

------
RasputinsBro
Another instance of google propping up puppet competitors.

~~~
cinquemb
I have to say, living in Indonesia and seeing the start up scene (and
financiers recently not to long ago at Global Venture Summit[which included a
big ad from a google presenter, as well as one of their VC firm spawn]), seems
like google is share cropping startups into their whole ecosystem.

But who can blame em? The government wants the USD flowing in, and the
companies (already strapped for talent and cash to pay for such) get their
IaaS for free for decent chunk of time… virtually no push back here like there
is in the states to 'some' degree… and it keeps their offices from getting
raided again!

