

Maybe you can't make money doing what you love - bdfh42
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2008/10/maybe-you-cant.html

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sfamiliar
You have to also love making money. I love making money. By definition, it is
impossible for me to become unhappy if I have to make money doing what I love.
/obvious.

I had a girlfriend like this: she was an excellent photographer, had a degree
in fine arts with a photography specialty, but didn't want to make money doing
it -- she didn't want it to become her job. This discrepancy made her
miserable, not only because she generally didn't get to take pictures, and
didn't get to make the money she could be making, but also because she wasn't
using her degree.

I went to school for CS, not because I love it (though I do at times) but
because the market forecast was good, and I wanted to retire early. What I
like about programming is the freedom to innovate, to solve problems. I get to
solve problems, solve puzzles with my job. That's great. When I get done
working, I'll write a book -- that'll be even better.

I think it's enough to work doing something you like, to support what you
love.

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aditya
This is another example of Seth's cookiecutter gurudom. I don't think it
applies to startups at all, though.

Also, stop rehashing the same old, 'If you commercialize your art, it stops
being satisfying' BS. We knew that forever ago. I think in the connected
universe it is easy to to do something you love on the side AND make money
from it AND be happy doing it. Like that guy who makes $2k/yr because he sold
some photos to iStockphoto 10 years ago.

Not to bring ad hominem into this, but why has Seth become so un-original?

~~~
Hexstream
"become"?

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pg
_In order to monetize your work, you'll probably corrupt it, taking out the
magic in search of dollars._

The great artists of the Renaissance were very highly paid. In fact they were
probably the best paid craftsmen of the time. And they are hard to beat for
magic.

~~~
Alex3917
It's very well documented that rewards diminish both intrinsic motivation and
creativity, so this is mostly a moot point. But for the sake of argument:

A) The psychological effect of working for a church/patron is probably not
analogous to, say, trying to produce a blog post that makes the front page of
Digg. To borrow from Herzberg's two-factor theory, their patronage was more of
a hygiene factor than a motivation factor.

B) You're only looking at the best pieces from the best artists. It's likely
that the average artist was producing mostly shit in hopes of getting paid. In
fact probably even the best artists were producing mostly shit in hopes of
getting paid.

~~~
pg
_It's likely that the average artist was producing mostly shit in hopes of
getting paid. In fact probably even the best artists were producing mostly
shit in hopes of getting paid._

The great artists couldn't _bring_ themselves to produce shit, any more than
great people in any field ever can. Show me an example of shit made by
Leonardo or Van Eyck or Brueghel.

 _It's very well documented that rewards diminish both intrinsic motivation
and creativity_

In studies where they offer one group of undergrads money to complete some
random task and another group does it for free? Things work differently at the
other end of the expertise spectrum.

~~~
Alex3917
"In studies where they offer one group of undergrads money to complete some
random task and another group does it for free?"

The studies are pretty wide ranging. For example, people paid to wear their
seatbelts are less likely to do so. People who are offered money if they lose
weight are less successful, and are more likely to gain even more weight. If
teachers are offered money if their students improve on a test, the students
will do worse on the test. Students who study something in an attempt to get a
good grade will have a more superficial understanding of the material than
they would otherwise.

"Things work differently at the other end of the expertise spectrum."

Maybe that's true once your work is at the genius level and you don't need any
more external validation, but even if so how do you get there? If you've been
mastering your craft for twenty years and then you're offered money it might
not be damaging, if done right, but being offered money too soon may well harm
the average person.

"The great artists couldn't bring themselves to produce shit, any more than
great people in any field ever can."

George Lucas.

~~~
erik
There is debate about the impact of reward on motivation. Motivation is a
complex thing. <http://www.physorg.com/news4126.html>

"George Lucas"

I think that George Lucas has very aptly demonstrated that he is not a great
artist. He got lucky with Star Wars. With his next two movies he had the sense
to let someone else direct. Then he let the success go to his head.

~~~
Alex3917
_“There are many children for whom the important reward to them is the grades
they get, the competition among classmates,” Reiss said. “This goes against
what some psychologists say, who think competition is bad and a non-
competitive attitude is good, and that learning and curiosity are intrinsic
values that everyone shares. They are pushing their own value system on to
everybody.”_

That last sentence is extremely disingenuous.

I would be like to read the his original argument though.

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jcromartie
I think Hugh MacLeod's _How To Be Creative_ gives this subject a better
treatment. I haven't forgotten the very simple "Sex & Cash Theory." Creative
people need two jobs: one is sexy, and one pays the bills.

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iigs
I think there's some kind of implicit sentiment that the happiness from doing
something you enjoy and getting paid are additive when you do something you
enjoy. I'm not sure that's true.

I love computers, UNIX/Linux, scalable architectures, yadda yadda yadda. I
work in the field, and am reasonably well compensated, but I've always said
"I'd keep doing computers even if I was the one paying."

Doing something you're passionate about for someone else (whether your
customer is a manager, or you're self employed and your customer is the one
paying) isn't inherently pleasurable if the customer's goals aren't perfectly
aligned with yours -- in fact it can be deeply saddening to know there's a
better way to accomplish something, if only some business reality (cost,
technical constraint) wasn't in the way.

For me, the big win working in my favorite field is that the job is easy -- I
have a great pool of contacts, I've spent over 80% of my entire life immersed
in the problems and solutions of this field. That said, I'm pretty sure I'd
enjoy computing a lot more again if I went back to bagging groceries -- 100%
of the computing I'd do would be computing for pleasure, no more chores or
building stuff for people that have needs that are different than mine.

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LostInTheWoods
"That passion you have for art... perhaps making your painting commercial
enough to sell will squeeze the joy out of it."

Once you cross the line of doing something to pay the bills, instead of doing
it for the joy of doing it, then it becomes work. And, work, ultimately sucks.

~~~
kirse
I was trying to figure out when a hobby I love turns into something I hate,
and you just nailed it for me. _Needed_ to pay bills = work.

It also becomes work once you believe you have to turn your hobby into
something that makes money (because everyone - especially this site - tells
you to find your passion and then make money from it).

Some pursuits are better left intrinsicly rewarding.

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coglethorpe
I have a feeling Seth Godin loves what he does for money.

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jerf
I think he misses the real problem. It is easier to be noticed. It is easier
to get "picked up". However, it's easier for everyone, which means that the
supply of niche content is radically increasing... and when supply increases,
the price drops. In the end, the key is _still_ to move from niche to large,
and we've moved from "like winning the lottery" under the old system to...
"like winning the lottery" under the new system, too. The barrier of entry is
lower, but it's even more random behind the barrier.

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mhb
First "grow the economy" and now "surface your ideas". Ugh.

~~~
fallentimes
Classic Godin.

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bbgm
I mostly agree with most of the comments, especially since Seth
oversimplifies, but he has a point. I know a couple of people who loved
painting and graphic design, but lost all love for it when it became a career,
so they switched to another career and started enjoying design again. It
wasn't that they couldn't make money from design, but making it a career took
the joy and creativity out of it.

HN might just skewed towards those lucky few who are able to make money from
things they love. Personally, if I am not doing something I love, it's not
worth it.

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wallflower
Two quotable quotes: "Work does not necessarily make you happy, but it may
provide you the money to do the things that make you happy."

"If all you get from your job is a paycheck, you're underpaid"

I don't think it's a trade-off if you don't love your job. However, if you
truly hate your job - why are you doing it?

I was a workaholic for the longest time and I still am - I am re-applying my
workaholic tendencies to outside-the-cube. Software development bankrolls
ventures like learning Spanish and Salsa dancing.

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bmelina
In some fields doing what you love won't pay your bills. But haven't you
noticed that usually people that do what they love they are really good at it?
And you keep wondering how he/she does it? A lot of people choose to work in a
field that maybe it doesn't suits them or maybe because they have to because
of the trends, but be sure that one day they will end up miserable and with no
time to do what they really love because time may have passed.

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MicahWedemeyer
There are plenty of careers that meld creativity and commercial gains, like
being an architect or interior designer. Don't you think an architect takes
pride in seeing one of their buildings standing against the skyline?

Sure, you might not get rich making splatter paintings, but you can still be
creative and make money at the same time. People will pay for things that are
aesthetically pleasing.

~~~
bokonist
Architects don't make much money. And within the field, there is strong
inverse correlation between prestige of the job and the pay. Some of the most
prestigious New York firms actually pay their employees less than minimum
wage. And I'm not talking about interns - I'm talking full time employees with
masters in architecture getting paid virtually nothing. On the flip side, if
an architect does project management for construction, they get paid a lot
more.

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zandorg
I'm a pop musician, and I put out a few records, but I found that once
committed to vinyl (not necessarily with the medium of CD-R), I got bored with
those songs and couldn't enjoy them anymore. Vinyl is the most long-lasting
medium for music, so this act of your music going on permanent art is more
satisfying than the music itself.

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jyothi
_"Ars gratia artis"_

Explains why great artists lived poor financially. But there are always who
bring in the _genius of AND_ with art meets living (commercial). They ofcourse
are geniuses.

~~~
zandorg
Or just get a good manager.

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fallentimes
Yeah, but more than likely you can do something doing what you like.

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cousin_it
I read it as: "Produce great content for free and let Google make money off
it." Does Seth see the conflict of interest? Or is it the actual reason behind
the post?

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redorb
if you're going to make a living at it, it helps to find a niche where money
flows as a regular consequence of the success of your idea

as soon as you focus on your art and leave the money behind, you may just
discover that this focus turns out to be the secret of actually breaking
through and making money.

thats the meat of the articles, overall good ideas..

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laktek
My thoughts on this : <http://www.web2media.net/laktek/?p=90>

------
known
Being successful is key and money is an addon.

