
Advice for young developers - davemello
https://www.newfangled.com/the_right_kind_of_developer
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showsover
Why I wouldn't work for you:

I don't work for free. My time is more valuable than free. Perhaps at reduced
rate, but never for free. Working for free makes your clients balk when you
finally dare to charge.

I like my free time. Free time gives me a chance to do what I want, as I'm
young only once. It's not always easy to have some time off when in college /
uni, so the time you can make is time you (should) treasure. How you fill that
time does not matter, but it should be fun (as that's what free time should
be).

The other points I agree with. Building a portfolio is a great way to get at
least one foot in the door. Writing code and text is also a very good way to
learn to express thoughts (both of which I do too little of, personally),
which also helps your future senior to get a reading of you.

~~~
probably_wrong
> I don't work for free. My time is more valuable than free.

I think this doesn't probably apply for students and/or recent graduates, as
it would be a way of escaping the typical "I can't get a job because I don't
have experience, and I can't get experience because I don't have a job"
catch-22.

True, my time is always worth a certain amount (probably higher than I
assume), but if I get a tangible benefit out of it, I could assume that I just
switched from "I pay you and you give me knowledge and a degree" to "I pay you
and you give me experience and a recomendation".

~~~
showsover
No, working for free is not a good idea. Perhaps for non-profits, but even
then you are better off to either charge a friends' price, or just donate
money.

How would someone that just graduated pay rent and food when they don't have a
job that, you know, pays them?

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acchow
Wealthy parents. An ethical issue with working for free is it gives an
advantage to kids with wealthy parents, lowering mobility.

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chollida1
> Work for free. This is my boilerplate advice for anyone getting started in
> any industry, not just web developers. Finding someone that will let you
> work with them is not that hard, if you offer to do it for free.

Yikes.... I would never advise someone to work for free for a company. If you
want to work on an open source project then that's probably a better use of
your time.

The problem with free is that it lowers your worth to a company.m

Heck even university co-op terms pay well these days.

~~~
ed209
That depends on how you class "for free". Most people think free = not being
paid money.

I'm actually looking into working for the whole of July for no monetary
compensation. But in return, I expect to learn something from whoever I work
with/for.

Most of the time money is good. You can exchange that for many things in life.
But sometimes, knowledge is better to have as you can exchange that for (even
more) money.

And from an employer point of view, you should not be judged by the size of
your pay cheque, but by how much value you actually add to a company.

~~~
jmduke
_> > Most of the time money is good. You can exchange that for many things in
life. But sometimes, knowledge is better to have as you can exchange that for
(even more) money._

This is a false dichotomy. With some very rare exceptions, you do not choose
between monetary compensation and experience: you need -- and should get --
both.

~~~
ed209
I agree completely, other than calling them rare exceptions. You can't
quantify the rarity of these opportunities until you know how big the gap is
between your current knowledge and what you'd learn.

The bigger the gap, the less money you are likely to make but the more you'll
learn. If you get paid nothing, you're basically there to learn (to the value
at least the salary you would receive).

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RuggeroAltair
Advertising the 'work for free' thing pushes towards establishing a dangerous
culture, in which slowly all first jobs are expected to be unpaid. And some
companies would (and some already do) include these 'free' people in their
business model.

There is no reason why those companies can't pay a basic internship salary
which at least allows you not to work somewhere else to be able to eat and
sleep somewhere else than a friends couch (or floor).

And if the company really can't afford that basic salary, I would double
question if it's really worth for you to work for them.

~~~
crusso
_There is no reason why those companies can't pay a basic internship salary_

You don't know that. Maybe the company is a totally new idea being started on
a shoe string that can't afford to pay much of anything.

Maybe the product or project is a "what the hell" kind of project that doesn't
really have any revenue associated with it but won't be even attempted without
some free or mostly free time.

Where would the open source community be without people contributing to it for
free?

Yours is the kind of thinking that leads to the ever-increasing minimum wage,
which sounds great at first blush but whose unintended consequence is the
killing off of whimsical tough-to-start or high risk ventures while also
denying real experience to workers who lack the job skills needed to actually
be productive at the required minimum wage.

~~~
chasing
"How can I possibly start my whimsical high-risk venture if I have to pay my
employees enough so they can afford food and shelter? Why does everything have
to be stacked in favor of those greedy minimum wage earners?"

~~~
crusso
Always with the us-vs-them mentality. Maybe both sides are risking something.
Maybe both sides have something to gain? Those ideas are hard to consider when
you only have one perspective in mind.

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coldcode
If you hire people who work for "real" free at a for-profit company, you could
get in a lot of legal and tax trouble depending on where you are.

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bad_user
I'm 30 and I already have 10 years of experience. The job I got at 20 was a
shitty job. The next job after that was also shitty. I went through soul-
sucking activities at my day job and it almost made me switch careers.
Unfortunately I needed the salary. And fortunately I evolved.

If I would be 20 again and I wouldn't need a salary, then I would probably
find a bunch of acquaintances to start a project of our own. Something not
necessarily with a prospect of a future. Something fun, with no clients, no
deadlines and no managers.

Internships are also great, as interns are usually left to work on fun things.
But it really depends on the company you're internshiping with. The big ones
are kind of cool for interns and I would prefer them (e.g. Google, Apple,
Microsoft, Adobe, Amazon), even though I wouldn't want to work there full
time. I would also never work for free. Ask for a salary, even when doing an
internship. If a company wants for-free interns, that's not the kind of
company you want to work with.

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geekam
Working on non-technical project is a good advice. I like to paint and indulge
in photography and I have often seen ideas jumping from one field to the
other. Like working on a project that requires front-end work sometimes gets
help from while I am splashing paint on my canvas. Photography on the other
hand, lets me indulge in the subject at hand. A developer is someone who
developer, an idea, a vision into reality. I just do not associate "being a
developer" to "being a programmer" anymore.

I did not like the "work for free" advice a lot but I do think that sometimes
the only way to work on something that you really want to work on is to give
your time and energy to it, for free. I am sure there are people who will not
agree with me but I am a big proponent of non-profits (esp the ones who ask
for your services, more than money).

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davemello
Thanks, all, for the feedback! I just wanted to clarify on my 'work for free'
point. If you have no real-world experience, get some. While you may not get
paid at first, the amount of marketable skills you learn will more than pay
for that. The point here is not to offer to work for free in hopes that you
might eventually get hired (although that can sometimes happen). Rather, the
point is that there are a lot of things that you can only learn by being
thrown into the context of a fast-moving, multi-faceted company with real
clients.

~~~
mbenjaminsmith
Thanks for joining the discussion.

Qualified it is still bad advice. The last thing the software industry needs
is a hazing period for unscrupulous companies to take advantage of. If you're
really lacking in any demonstrable experience then work on a personal project
or an open source project until you can show that you know what you're doing.
The pay is the same and what you'll have to show for it is just as valuable
(if not a lot more) for future employers -- at least the ones you're likely to
actually want to work for.

>> "fast-moving, multi-faceted company with real clients"

Before I got into software I built a public relations agency from the ground
up. I used to dream in corporate double-talk. Even I don't know what that
phrase means.

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zachgersh
Why is this targeted at young developers? Seems like this is advice for any
developer who is looking to get their start in the industry.

I would replace working for free with contributing to an open source project
or working to become a maintainer. People have already pointed this out and I
wanted to agree!

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bsirkia
Definitely all good points, only quibble is that not everyone has the option
to work for the their first company for free or would have to take a second
paying job to make it work. That limits the amount of time you can spend on
your own projects and personal development.

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pmelendez
Hmmm... I have a feeling that I will see tomorrow a "Why I wouldn't hire you"
article over here.

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joshdance
I found a health tech company I wanted to work for an asked for an internship.
They not only paid me, it is now my full time job. Offer to work for free and
if you generate significant value they will pay you.

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RobotCaleb
Scrolling on that site is broken. I can't page down without hiding text that I
haven't read yet.

