

HP brings Windows 7 back 'due to popular demand' as buyers shun Windows 8 - chakalakasp
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2323993/hp-brings-windows-7-back-due-to-popular-demand-as-buyers-shun-windows-8

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Encosia
The Windows 8 (especially post-8.1) pushback baffles me. If you put any effort
at all into learning how to use it effectively, the acclimation period is
definitely shorter than Win95 or WinXP was. I use it on a desktop machine with
two 30" displays and only mouse/keyboard inputs (i.e. no touch). You certainly
couldn't pay me $150 to go back to Win7 at this point.

I even find that I use Metro apps on my desktop fairly often. I have the live
tiles for a few key apps like Mail, Calendar, Weather, Google Voice, and
Twitter arranged as a dashboard of key notifications that I care about and
flip over from the desktop more often than I thought I would.

It's also nice how Metro apps can raise notification toast on the desktop now
in 8.1 (and desktop apps like Outlook can also tie into that same system,
similar to Growl but built-in). Since I'm on the desktop 95% of the time, that
definitely helps bridge the gap between Metro and desktop. I can get a
lightweight notification when I get an @mention on Twitter, for example,
without leaving TweetDeck running all the time.

On my laptop with touch and on my Surface, Win8.1 is far and away better than
Win7 could have possibly been. The Metro side of things is great there -
especially since both have HiDPI displays and Metro apps .

Surprisingly, I still haven't installed Outlook on the laptop because the 8.1
update to the Metro Mail app makes it good enough for my relatively light
email use while mobile. Since all of the settings sync across machines
automatically, the Mail app was already configured with the six accounts I use
regularly as soon as I logged into it, so it was a no-brainer compared to
installing Outlook or opening six web apps all the time.

~~~
gooble_flop
From memory XP wasn't well received at first. It just hung around so long that
people got really comfortable with it and didn't want to change.

~~~
ams6110
Because it didn't offer much that Windows 2000 didn't provide?

~~~
Encosia
I don't know this for a fact, but I think very few people were coming from
Win2k to XP. Win2k was relatively niche, even in business, from what I can
remember of my experience back then. It was essentially only the people who
were running NT 4.0 Workstation before who used Win2k in the interim between
that and XP.

~~~
pdw
It was getting popular in hobbyist circles (probably mostly in pirated form),
especially after new PCs started shipping with Windows ME.

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dangrossman
The changes between Windows 7 and 8 always seemed terribly minor to me -- a
few control panels and settings shifted around as they do every OS update, the
start menu became larger and looks a bit different but functions essentially
the same (right down to preserving your Program Files hierarchy from Win95 if
you scroll down from the tiles screen), but nothing major in the big scheme of
things.

If Microsoft hadn't made these changes, and in the next few years became
completely foreign and irrelevant to the current young generation of consumers
who grew up on touch devices that work more like Win8 than Win7, would we be
panning them for sticking with "what works" while their consumer base switches
to Android/iOS?

~~~
iends
Metro apps that are full screen are a terrible idea. I hate running skype and
it taking up an entire monitor (yes, I know about skype desktop, and use it
now, but it's not the default). I hate the PDF reader that is always full
screen and difficult to close (alt-f4 is the only way?).

Full screen applications don't work on a desktop where multitasking is the
norm.

~~~
dded
Does the default PDF reader allow you to print yet?

~~~
jongalloway2
As far as I know, it did from day one using the "Devices" charm thing. Later
on they also made it available using the menu at the bottom - swipe in from
top or bottom on touch screen, right click screen otherwise.

~~~
dangrossman
Or press Ctrl+P. I don't recall that ever not bringing up the print menu.

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TrainedMonkey
I really do not understand why we must have one size fits all operating system
in the first place. Some things work better for mobile (metro, ios, android),
and some work better for desktop/laptop Windows, OS X, Linux.

Why must we try to make them the same? I would argue a set of well defined
junction points like Apple did with airplay in order to share content between
mobile and desktop segments is a way more elegant solution.

~~~
Innercode
They could have a one sized fits all operating system, however they need to
tailor the interface to each type of device. Using a mouse on a "touch"
interface is a terrible experience, same as using touch in a mouse
environment. I have not tried Windows 8 update, however first impressions have
done the damage to Windows 8 already.

~~~
theg2
I use Win8 daily and have no issue using a mouse or my fingers, actually the
mouse is far more accurate and faster so I fail to understand your statement.

~~~
WiseWeasel
Swipe gestures are a pain with a mouse, because you need to move the mouse to
the right spot, click, drag in the opposite direction and then release,
requiring a non-trivial amount of effort; and it just feels wrong when you're
expected to do so regularly because you know there has to be a better way
(like the way it used to work). Decades of desktop UI design focused on
"discoverability" also mean that an unindicated need for a swipe gesture in
order to access core functionality is frustratingly non-obvious to people
experienced with classic desktop interfaces, and these will tend to be people
whose advice is requested in purchasing decisions.

Swiping is awesomely natural on a touchscreen, but obviously sub-optimal
otherwise. Reliance on a swipe gesture should be avoided in UI design for a
mouse/touchpad and keyboard environment, in favor of buttons and menus, and
mouse wheel/two-fingered scroll support.

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Amezarak
If swipe gestures even work with the mouse in Windows 8, I didn't know it and
it never occurred to me to even try, though now I'm curious to see what
happens when I get back on my laptop. I never even considered trying. You
don't do swipes if you have a keyboard and mouse in Windows 8, you use your
buttons, menus, clicks, and mouse-wheel just as you suggest. Where did you get
the idea that the Win8 interface required gestures?

~~~
Amezarak
You don't need to swipe, you just move the mouse to the corner of the screen
(or use the keyboard shortcut.)

~~~
WiseWeasel
So you can! Well that's embarrassing. Guess I could try using the thing before
I stick my foot in my mouth.

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computerslol
I've been using windows 8, and now 8.1, since public release.

For me, windows 8 answers a few questions.

1): What do we do when users want to use their fingers instead of a mouse to
click buttons made for the (superior) accuracy of a mouse pointer?

2): What do we do when monitor manufacturers sell 4k+ displays and windows
applications aren't written to scale up that way?

3): How do we sell users and developers on using desktop applications again
(instead of web apps)?

I think all three questions are answered well, and users will be less hostile
to the changes once enough applications move to Metro, and consumers are
buying 4k tablets.

At the moment, what I am hearing most is "Why change something that worked so
well? Why do I have to learn something new?". The next generation PC hardware
will answer that question.

I spend all of my time in windows, and I wouldn't want go back to 7. I like
the new start screen; I find my applications a lot quicker when all I need to
do is hit the windows key and type the name of the app, or file, or whatever
I'm looking for. Windows 8 really shines on the surface, where a high DPI
screen and touch come together. I use desktop apps on the desktop and mostly
ignore metro; but on the surface I prefer metro apps which are more finger
friendly and easier to read.

I like the new store architecture, and the limitations made on apps written
for it. I will have to worry less installing an application from a publisher I
don't recognize. I read a lot about the APIs, but I haven't written anything
for it yet. I am waiting for metro to be available to enough users to make it
cost effective to put effort into it.

If I were working at Microsoft right now, I would be shouting at the top of my
lungs "Let's put out commercials explaining why Windows 8 is better!". I don't
feel Windows 8 is a technological or UI disaster; I feel it's a marketing
disaster.

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kvb
Counterpoint: "HP Bringing Back Windows 7 PCs? Not so fast..."[1]. TL;DR: this
is a marketing tactic, and HP is actually offering fewer systems with Windows
7 than it was last year.

[1] [http://www.zdnet.com/hp-bringing-back-windows-7-pcs-not-
so-f...](http://www.zdnet.com/hp-bringing-back-windows-7-pcs-not-so-
fast-7000025351/)

~~~
Maakuth
Isn't it only natural that they sold a lot of Windows 7 PCs last year, as
Windows 8 was only recently released?

~~~
kvb
Sure. The point is, "bringing back" implies that there was a period of time
where Windows 7 PCs weren't being offered by HP, which appears not to be the
case.

~~~
bdcravens
I think the idea is that Windows 7 is done, new computers moving forward will
have 8. In the same sense that I can't go to a Honda dealership and buy a
brand new 2011 Honda Civic. (I could if they have one still in inventory, but
they're not getting any new ones)

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contactmatts
I've been using Windows 8 on my laptop for well over a year, and I quite enjoy
it. Especially with Windows 8.1, I just don't see how you can love Windows 7,
and at the same time show an extreme displeasure for Windows 8. Have these
people even used Windows 8?

IMO, the resistance has more to do with bad Microsoft PR and the anti-MS
bandwagon, than flaws in the OS.

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briholt
This article greatly exaggerates. A quick search shows HP offers only 2
Windows-7 laptops, but offers 35 Windows-8x laptops. Similar numbers go for
desktops as well.

[http://www.shopping.hp.com/en_US/home-
office/-/products/Lapt...](http://www.shopping.hp.com/en_US/home-
office/-/products/Laptops/Laptops)

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kogir
Can't "Back by popular demand" refer to the $150 discount on old systems
instead of Windows 7 itself? I'm leaning that direction since I associate
snowmen with December holidays.

Look at the ad itself:
[http://www.hp.com/country/us/en/hho/welcome.html](http://www.hp.com/country/us/en/hho/welcome.html)

~~~
TrainedMonkey
That is really standard HP discount. I do not remember ever going to HP
website and not receiving $100-$450 discount for something.

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smegel
Who would have thought that shimming a tablet UI onto a non touch PC would be
a bad idea...

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adamors
Windows 8 is noticeably faster, has nice improvements all around and it's
probably the first Windows that looks aesthetic.

People are afraid of change, simple as that.

~~~
robertfw
Windows 8 is the most unusable collection of software I have ever had the
misfortune of fighting. It is the worst experience I have ever had with an
operating system, coming from experience with dos, windows 3.1-95-xp-vista-7,
ubuntu, and arch.

The built in apps feel like MVPs. The interactions are unintuitive, and many
things that should "just work" smack you in the face time and time again.

the whole thing feels like it's been slapped together without any thought for
actual usability, and with zero polish.

edit: i should note that I have not yet tried the 8.1 update

~~~
dubfan
I've been using Windows 8 on my desktop PC for some time now (primarily used
for gaming and entertainment, not development) and for my purposes it's a
clear upgrade over 7. Yes, the Metro apps are terrible but you don't ever need
to use them. I spend almost all of my time in the desktop, and the few times I
need to use the new Start interface, the workflow is exactly the same as Win7
(press Windows key, start typing program name, hit Enter).

~~~
BlackDeath3
This sounds like the same, unconvincing argument I always hear about Windows
8.

"It's a bit faster, there are some other minor obscure improvements, and if
you just ignore all of the crappy new stuff it's not a big deal!"

If boot times are a big issue for you, then I get it. For me, they aren't, so
I'm inclined to pass on the update. Perhaps it would work great with a Windows
Phone or Surface (I'm tempted to try those at some point, so if anybody would
like to share their experiences with theirs...), but it doesn't seem like it
was designed for a desktop. So why should I put it on my desktop?

~~~
adamors
> if you just ignore all of the crappy new stuff it's not a big deal

It really isn't a big deal, because you're not being forced to use the Metro
apps. You can populate the start menu with regular application shortcuts and
you're on your way.

~~~
BlackDeath3
So why the hell am I upgrading?

~~~
jongalloway2
I use it on a three monitor desktop. My favorite new features are file
explorer and task manager.

Also the skydrive + settings sync is really nice. Whenever I install on a new
device, everything's set up on first boot.

Lots of other features that don't make headlines but are genuinely useful:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windows_8](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windows_8)

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ChikkaChiChi
the cognitive disarray caused by the metro menu is the worst UI innovation
since mystery meat navigation. that being said, disabling it in favor of a
classic start menu makes Windows 8 on par with 7.

This sort of workaround does not make things OK for the average person.

