
YouTube shuts down 210 Chinese channels posting about Hong Kong - bedros
https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/22/tech/youtube-china-hong-kong/index.html
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unnouinceput
Quote: "Protesters are demanding greater democracy and an inquiry into alleged
police brutality during past demonstrations."

Jesus, do Donie O'Sullivan and Kevin Collier, article authors even have a
slight idea what HK protests are about? Those protests started to oppose a
bill regarding extraditing to mainland China. Later on as the tension and
police brutality escalated those points were added. Here is the 5 points the
protesters are demanding now:

1- the bill must be withdrawn (this was the initial motive for protests)

2- the chief executive must resign (he ordered to police to start retaliatons)

3- the government must retract its characterisation of the violent clashes as
“riots”

4- there must be a full independent inquiry into the actions of the police

5- everyone arrested in respect of the clashes must be unconditionally freed.

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joshuamorton
I'd consider the extradition bill not-very-democratic, doubly so in the HK is
a somewhat autonomous zone, so forcing extradition reduces it's autonomy and
therefore it's citizens' democracy.

So how is this false?

~~~
mytailorisrich
Currently Hongkong has extradition treaties with many countries, but none with
'China' (Macao, Taiwan, mainland), which is a historical legacy but is now an
oddity.

Extradition treaties in general do not reduce autonomy and democracy.
Extraditions under this bill would follow (I believe) similar procedures to
extradition to other countries.

The key worries, I believe, are that charges brought on the mainland might be
fabricated and political because of the nature of the system there (absence of
independent judiciary) and that pressure could also be applied on Hongkong
authorities not to deny these requests, or simply that the procedure is such
that Hongkong courts don't have much scope to refuse requests.

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winrid
Stuff like this makes me feel like we're the suckers.

1\. What if the law that's being opposed is legitimate? Should someone that
commits murder in Taiwan be able to escape the law in HK?

2\. All the accounts are created through VPNs. Well, YT is blocked in China.
If Chinese people are trying to show us what the protesters are actually like
(I don't know for real either way) they would _have to use a VPN_. And they
would be _inclined_ to work together to vote up related content for awareness.

3\. If a state like let's say Texas in the US had a legal system where I could
commit a crime in PA and escape to Texas, wouldn't we want to fix that? Of
course there would be protests. Think of the recent protests we've had in
France, just for tax reasons. You think if this kind of law changed in Texas
you wouldn't see fires and overturned cars?

My point is, maybe our view into that side of the world is not as clear as we
think.

~~~
hashmap
> 1\. What if the law that's being opposed is legitimate? Should someone that
> commits murder in Taiwan be able to escape the law in HK?

This is a good example of a particularly sinister argumentation style, and you
can see it everywhere these days. It typically goes like this:

1\. Take an objectively bad reality. "Citizens of Hong Kong could possibly be
extradited to a totalitarian state for any thing that state decides was a
crime."

2\. Restate it as an abstract ideal or extreme case, ignoring the details that
make it bad, and ask why one wouldn't want this thing that's actually good:
"But shouldn't people who commit crimes in other countries have to face
justice?" / "Should someone that commits murder in Taiwan be able to escape
the law in HK?"

I'm not sure what to call it, but it would be good to have a two or three word
phrase to succinctly call this kind of thing out. I'll have to think, but
would appreciate input from others who have noticed it as well.

Edit: I would add that the really "sinister" part is that those bad details
are ignored for the sake of making the argument, but are, in fact, the end
goal.

~~~
winrid
Not trying to be sinister. That is the reality right? It's a hard question.

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dirtyid
Are there any details released about FB/Twitter/Youtube removals other than we
think these are state actors? I know twitter released a data dump but has
there been any analysis? It's not that the problem isn't worth addressing, but
non of these companies has had a good record with moderating political topics
so far. There was complaints a few months back by Chinese YouTuber who cater
to Chinese audiences that their subscriber and likes weren't comporting to
like/vote/subscriber/dashboard statistics, most people just chalked it up to
automatic VPN flagging. I'd like a little more transparency, otherwise it
appears western social media is validating and devolving towards Great Fire
Wall.

~~~
est
[https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49416617](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49416617)

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moksly
I really wish the cyberpunk novels I read in my youth would stop becoming
reality. Especially Distraction by Bruce Sterling comes to mind. It’s just so
crazy that political entities run false campaigns, and that the impact of
these campaigns is so profound.

I’m happy YouTube is fighting back, but at the same time I can’t help but
wonder if our social media platforms are really geared to fight it. With so
many hours of video uploaded, it seems impossible to regulate. I imagine that
they are trying their best, but aren’t SEO people showing us every day, that
it’s fairly easy to game the system? The worst part is the apparent lack of
consequences. Does the Chinese government really care 210 of their propaganda
channels were shut down?

~~~
rdlecler1
They’ll get better. They have to or someone will replace them. This kind of
propaganda is a disease in a system that has not evolved to identify/combat it
systematically.

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xster
Not sure there is much analysis to be done here besides interpretive fan
fiction.

The primary source [https://www.blog.google/outreach-initiatives/public-
policy/m...](https://www.blog.google/outreach-initiatives/public-
policy/maintaining-integrity-our-platforms/) is a lot more opaque than
Twitter's announcement.

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qtplatypus
I wonder if this is a trail run for many of these companies for the US
presidential election.

~~~
computerfriend
Not everything is about the US elections. Hong Kong's future is independently
important.

~~~
jazzyjackson
There is conjecture floating around that Google/Facebook/Twitter are flexing
their anti-propoganda muscles to avoid government regulation. ("See? We can
block state actors all on our own")

