
Musth - Petiver
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musth
======
ianbicking
One hobby of mine is trying to imagine what it would be like if elephants
developed human-level communication and thus civilization. They are close
enough that it seems like a coincidence of evolution that apes got there and
elephants didn't: maybe ape brains were selected somewhat differently, or
maybe we went through moments of high evolutionary pressure (and survived),
where elephants didn't (or like the woolly mammoths, didn't survive).

Imagining how a civilization might develop with musth is interesting: it seems
biologically antisocial, like periodic insanity. Would there be pressure to
self-regulate? Ostracism during that time? Evolutionary selection against
musth?

It feels like there's an analogous suspicion and fear of human men as well,
similarly peaking for adolescent humans, like adolescent elephants, who are
least able to self-regulate. But the fears would be much stronger in
elephants, and so acute since musth is temporary and outwardly visible.

If not ostracism, what social pressure could be applied via punishment?
Elephants' scale would require different approaches: for instance, I don't
believe any number of elephants could work together to lift another elephant.
Elephants would have a degree of physical autonomy that, while not unbounded,
would be greater than humans: they can hurt each other, but not subdue except
through threat. And if you are crazy on hormones a threat might not be enough!

~~~
machello13
It kind of reminds me of Pon Farr from Star Trek, a regularly occurring period
of increased aggression experienced by male Vulcans every 7 years.

~~~
oftenwrong
Female Vulcans also experience the pon farr.

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weinzierl
This is an interesting topic but the (currently linked) English Wikipedia
article is quite sensational. It unnecessarily focuses on the aggressive
behavior and 30% of it is _" References in popular culture"_. It also left a
bunch of open questions so I read the German Wikipedia article and it is
_quite_ different - and not only in a superficial way.

English Wikipedia, first content paragraph after lead section:

> _" Although it has often been speculated by zoo visitors[2] that musth is
> linked to rut, it is unlikely there is a biological connection because the
> female elephant's estrus cycle is not seasonally-linked, whereas musth most
> often takes place in winter. Furthermore, bulls in musth have often been
> known to attack female elephants, regardless of whether or not the females
> are in heat."_

German Wikipedia, first content paragraph after lead section (my own
translation):

> _" Bull elephants reach puberty at about the same age as humans, which can
> last until the end of the second decade of life. The periodic interval of
> Musth, its intensity and duration can vary greatly from bull elephant to
> bull elephant. The duration ranges from a few weeks to several, in extreme
> cases up to nine months. In most cases, the first Musth lasts significantly
> shorter in individuals, in older animals the average is two to three months.
> Some bulls come in Musth once a year, others more frequently. There is no
> preferred season, so Musth bulls can appear all year round. This is a clear
> difference to the rutting season of various hoofed animals, which is partly
> seasonally bound and thus synchronized within a population."_

It goes on to describe the phases of Musth. From what I understand from the
rest of the German article it is basically the rut of elephants except that it
does not occur seasonally. Not everything is known about it but it is well
researched. In India it is culturally relevant.

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slfnflctd
"...reintroducing older males into the elephant population of the area seems
to prevent younger males from entering musth, and therefore, stop this
aggressive behavior."

Fascinating.

~~~
papeda
Reminds me of orangutans, too [1]:

> Males mature at around 15 years of age, by which time they have fully
> descended testicles and can reproduce. However, they exhibit arrested
> development by not developing the distinctive cheek pads, pronounced throat
> pouches, long fur, or long-calls until they are between 15 and 20 years old.
> The development of these characteristics depends largely on the absence of a
> resident male.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangutan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangutan)

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setgree
I first read about this here: [https://medium.com/@flowidealism/evolutionary-
mismatch-as-a-...](https://medium.com/@flowidealism/evolutionary-mismatch-as-
a-causal-factor-in-adolescent-dysfunction-and-mental-illness-d235cc85584)

which makes the case that human adolescents, like elephants, benefit from
having older males around. Maybe of interest.

