
Is group chat making you sweat? - j4pe
https://m.signalvnoise.com/is-group-chat-making-you-sweat-744659addf7d
======
Stratoscope
> All sorts of eventual bad happens when a company begins thinking one-line-
> at-a-time most of the time.

theres a style i see a lot

of complicating on slack

^ communicating

where they type everything line by line

like this

not much punctuation

hardly any capital letters

never use the edit feature to correct anything

just type another line with ^ and the word you meant

and everyone sees that "Stratoscope is typing" message

the entire time

it makes me crazy

I seem to be the odd man out in some Slack teams and channels. When I write
something, even on Slack, I try to write it to be _read_. Sentences,
paragraphs, punctuation, and grammar make things easier to read.

Of course I leave out the email-style "Hi Sally," intro and "Thanks, -Mike"
closing, and keep it shorter and less formal.

If I'm writing more than a sentence or two, I'll sometimes type it into a
separate text editor first, just so people won't have to see that "Mike is
typing" the whole time. And so I don't accidentally hit Enter and send out my
half-baked draft!

I also have to admit to a prejudice: when I see consistently sloppy writing
from a programmer, I start to wonder what their _code_ is like. Do they code
in a way that's quick to write, or easy to read?

To be clear, by "sloppy" I don't mean the kinds of mistakes that can be
expected and forgiven from a non-native speaker. And I don't mean the casual
informality that is natural for the medium. I'm talking about the barely
coherent style of writing I used at the top of this comment.

The line by line stream of thought seems lazy to me. It's distracting, hard to
read, and doesn't feel respectful of the reader.

but maybe thats just me

~~~
fluxquanta
It seems like you're being downvoted, but I'm right there with you. I can't
tell you how many times I've been in the middle of a thought only to receive a
"Hi, can I ask you a question?" message, followed by 30 seconds of "X is
typing...".

Part of my job is answering questions. The answer to "can I ask you a
question?" therefore is always "Yes". All you manage to accomplish by asking
me if you can ask me a question is to break my concentration and waste my time
until your actual question comes through (often one line at a time as well).

~~~
chipsy
I have to assume this is coming from people who are not good text
communicators in general because the same problem exists with email: "when
would you like to schedule this" without indication of your own schedule is
one such pet peeve. It's really easy to stretch out asynchronous conversation
by wasting the other person's time.

"I have a question" in speech DOES have a purpose, which is to prime listeners
to enter conversation mode instead of stopping you to say "what" after you've
said two words. Of course, I've seen people who are on the ball and impatient
still get testy about that convention.

Edit: the most infuriating experience I've had in recent memory is a friend
who will consistently spam his shitposts over IM without warning, but when it
comes time to do business will say "hi" or "are you there" instead of asking
the question.

------
untog
I think Slack really needs to tweak their default notification settings.
Before you know what you're doing you end up with an anxiety-inducing list of
bolded room names after you've been away from your machine for 10 minutes.

Or maybe they shouldn't _have_ defaults - when you join a room it should ask
you how you want to be notified. Since I've set 90% of the rooms I'm in to
"muted until someone @s me" I've found it to be a much better experience, but
setting that up was a pain.

~~~
lmm
The defaults are sensible. Tags for you specifically, or private messages,
show up noisily. Messages to a group show up subtly, but not completely
invisibly. Bolded rooms should be normal; the green (1)s should be reserved
for the truly urgent things.

~~~
untog
> Bolded rooms should be normal

That's where I disagree, particularly as it shows up with a red dot next to
the app in my dock. Makes it seem _far_ more urgent than it actually is.

~~~
tedmiston
This red dot notification badge is maddening in a team of 20+. It should
default to off.

They have added the option to disable it:

    
    
      Preferences > 
        Notification Settings > 
          Dock App Icon > 
            Show (•) symbol on icon to indicate unread activity

------
hunvreus
The cynic in me can't help but notice that this post seems to reframe Basecamp
and similar solutions as the central collaboration hubs, with team chats being
additional tools.

Given the fact that 37Signals refocused on Basecamp a couple years ago [1],
and given the aggressive competition they must be facing from Slack and the
likes (on top of other project management platforms like Trello or Asana),
this is pretty understandable.

I agree with some of the points made, mostly that you should have some sort of
asynchronous, slower pace type of hub that should act more or less as the
source of truth and progress. For my team, it's been GitHub for a while [2],
and I haven't met a (functioning) team who did without. At the very least,
there's a Hackpad or a whiteboard somewhere that lists what needs to be done
and where things are at.

Is it sometimes frustrating to be constantly connected to your entire team?
Sure. Does it breed expectations of immediacy? Sure. But this is not specific
to the workplace: Uber, Tinder, Airbnb, ... heck iMessage. We've already been
down that road for a few years now. Just look at how frustrated one can be
when you chose not to answer a text for a day.

Teams that have their sh*t together will use something like Basecamp, Asana,
Trello or GitHub. But the problem the author raises here is much larger than
just work collaboration and I very much doubt that this global trend will curb
in the short to middle term. We will build behaviors to cope with the culture
of "now", but I very much doubt that it will look like Basecamp.

[1]: [http://www.inc.com/magazine/201403/jason-fried/basecamp-
focu...](http://www.inc.com/magazine/201403/jason-fried/basecamp-focus-one-
product-only.html)

[2]: [https://wiredcraft.com/blog/github-for-
everything/](https://wiredcraft.com/blog/github-for-everything/)

~~~
erikpukinskis
I can't really believe that it's a competitive space. It seems like a
_massively_ growing market... from what I can tell there's a crazy amount of
"fresh blood" in the form of businesses using antiquated software and newly
formed organizations forming which are just graduating from Google Docs.

In a growing market it's not really a zero sum game, multiple players just
means more growth.

------
ludbb
My productivity increases so much when I shutdown chat apps I can only wish
people responsible for setting them up at companies would stop for a minute
and read this. Only the fact that the app is running is enough to reduce my
output since I'll switch to it regularly no matter what.

~~~
brianwawok
This is all funny because 3 years ago it was email overload, use chat instead.
Now we are up to chat overload. With no tools we have meeting overload.

Maybe we just need some kind of flat "only talk to people 2 hours a day" rule
for developers that transcends communication method.

~~~
atemerev
One 15 minutes meeting spoils 1 hour of development time.

One 2 hour meeting spoils 3-4 hours of development time.

~~~
mcherm
And LACK of the right 15 minute meeting wastes months of development time as
we build the wrong thing and then throw it out.

The trick is knowing which piece of communication is the one that will
actually matter. I have no idea how to solve this one.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Experience helps. But there is no magic answer that fixes the problem.

------
easyd
Do posts from signalvsnoise.com get a penalty or are they just always flagged?
I'm asking cause this was just posted an hour ago, has 157 points/47 comments,
and is already falling from the first page. And this seems like a pattern.

~~~
galtwho
Sounds like it. Have noticed something similar on another thread as well.

------
fmavituna
With 7 years experience of running a remote & distributed team (5+ countries)
at Netsparker [1].

We have 4 platforms:

* Bug Tracking / Project Management

* Group Chat

* Skype / Voice

* Email

Since we grew organically, here is how I shaped the culture from 2 team
members to 20 and quite happy with it at the moment:

Groupchat is for "2\. Red Alerts" (via @everyone mentions), "3.Having Fun" and
"4\. Sense of belonging". Finally to share random stuff from funny moments to
interesting articles. Stuff that's completely optional to consume. Very very
rarely for "Hashing things out quickly" for that we use Skype. If you want to
toss an idea back and forth, just talk. If you are not in the same timezone
just wait for all to be in the same timezone (we don't have extreme timezone
differences, max is about 10 hours)

Voice is for pretty much everything else. We don't type or discuss anything on
chat if it's more than 3 message exchanges, when that happens someone just
calls. It's just waste of time, we just get on a call and talk. We also have a
routine of initiating skype calls to ensure it's normal to call people but
it's also normal to ignore calls as well. So you have the option to quickly
talk but also option to not be distracted.

We made it OK to be offline. Especially for devs it's OK to just be offline.

If something is really urgent, we'll call you or send you a text message.
Which rarely happens.

If it's a task/bug put it into the bug tracking system. Then it'll be visible
on the developer chat channel automatically.

So we found that voice chat is superior to pretty much anything else for many
purposes. Another habit we are getting better at is taking notes in voice
conversations and putting them on to the tasks.

These make text group chat a very minimal part of the flow. Another good
example: I was away for 2 weeks and it took me about 10 minutes to catch up
with all the group chat because we use it sparsely and discussions always use
threads (this is something we teach during the orientation) so you can read
the first line and just skip the whole thing.

Maybe it works because we have only 20 people, we're planning to continue to
do this until it doesn't work anymore.

[1]: [https://www.netsparker.com](https://www.netsparker.com)

------
liotier
TL;DR : don't use synchronous channels for asynchronous communication.

There is a continuum from real-time discursive to solid archived legally-
binding documentation, with a whole nuanced palette in-between... But -
everything in chatrooms, everything in mailing lists, everything in web
forums, everything in ticketing, everything in a wiki, everything in IRC,
everything in Slack: I've seen all those fads... When the only tool you have
is a hammer etc.

I believe that the deeper problem is about the tool selection process - not
just bottom-up vs. top-down but also the bonding produced by the community
that forms around a tool and the way it emerges from peer opinion leaders...
False consensus is easy to achieve and it becomes apparent once media fatigue
begins to occur as practical pressure overcomes social pressure.

------
jgrahamc
I have Hipchat (tool used internally at my company) set to no notifications at
all for group chats. I get notified by 1/1 chats and I selectively enable
notification for 'hot' rooms (i.e when I'm dealing with a specific problem
that needs my attention now).

~~~
hammock
This is how I manage my personal group chats in groupme.

------
newscracker
What I took back from this article was that it's not about Slack vs. Hipchat
vs. IRC vs. Skype vs. Basecamp or anything else. Whatever you do with your
S/H/I/S/B app settings, the very mode of communication without specific
granular contexts and separation of those contexts (like in email) is a big
issue, not some notification setting that could possibly get rid of the issues
of this medium.

Chat has its benefits as mentioned in the article, but there is a big deal of
frustration -- "How do I respond to point #1 by A, point #2 by B, point #3 by
C, point #4 by D that was in reply to point #2 by B"\-- and exhaustion -- "I
can never catch up with this" \-- not to mention it being futile in some
cases.

If the topic at hand is granular enough (which never is the case, especially
when dealing with complex things like software design and development) then
chats could be useful. For anything broader, depending on people's
availability, asynchronous communication (say email) or synchronous voice
communication (say a phone or VoIP call with a shared whiteboard) may be
better choices with more focus and productivity.

The whole problem exponentially increases in its (negative) impact with the
addition of more people into a group chat. This part has commonality with
other communication modes, but the way to control it and the effectiveness of
controlling it vary.

On a tangent, a voice call with a larger group is useless unless it has a
shared screen or presentation to keep people's eyes also busy and in sync. If
there's a way to make people participate, that's a big bonus. Otherwise many
will drift off to chat windows, email, browser tabs, etc., resulting in the
oft-repeated phrase in conference calls "Sorry, I didn't get that last part.
Could you please repeat it?" :)

------
PhasmaFelis
On the subject of Slack and its shortcomings, I'm not happy with the
apparently deliberate rolling-back of WYSIWYG for online communication. Early
web forums used flat text or manual HTML because browser/tech limitations made
WYSIWYG hard or impossible, but that style has somehow become a standard
decades after it stopped being technically relevant.

I can kinda-sorta understand it for deliberately minimalistic web interfaces
like HN's, but Slack isn't even limited to a web app. Why do I have to use
their idiosyncratic markup instead of just hitting Ctrl-I like every other
desktop app for the past 20 years? ( _Underscores_ for italics, really?) Why
can't I make a normal hyperlink with normal link text, instead of ramming a
mile-long URL with a big ugly preview image into the chat?

------
skyhatch1
Semi-related story: Slack lost us a partnership deal

Last year, I met with the EVP of a division at a Fortune 500 company in New
York, to discuss a partnership opportunity for our software company.

His direct reports had talked us up to him because we had a highly
differentiated offering for a crowded space; one which his company was
competing in.

It all went south as soon as the EVP recalled his experience with Slack. "You
guys sound like this Slack we tried last month." While our product didn't
handle group chat whatsoever, I couldn't convince him otherwise.

According to him, Slack increased the noise in their communications because
they "worked on a long-term case/problem basis" and they and "always refer
back to conversations", which was difficult to do with constant chatter.

------
henrik_w
Related: Slack, I'm Breaking Up With You

[https://medium.com/better-people/slack-i-m-breaking-up-
with-...](https://medium.com/better-people/slack-i-m-breaking-up-with-
you-54600ace03ea#.7008ysisc)

------
passive
As a remote employee who has successfully pushed Flowdock into the culture of
my last three employers, I've got things to say here. :)

I think the core thing is to treat group chat like physical office chat. So:

    
    
      - Don't use it to make decisions
      - Don't expect anyone is paying attention
      - If you need someone to pay attention, @ them
      - Stay in flows/rooms/groups with your close working companions, visit others when needed
    

Maybe I've been lucky that this has come pretty naturally to the people I work
with, but Flowdock has been a lifesaver for me, and gone a long way towards
making it easier to hire more remote people.

------
swanson
Whether or not you buy what they are selling (this is an ad for Basecamp over
Slack) -- there are some great points raised that I think are worth thinking
through even if you are all-in on Slack/Hipchat/etc.

I found the "one-line at a time thinking" and "announcements aren't chat" to
be very elegant ways of describing some hangups I've had with group chat and I
have a few very actionable changes that I hope to make in my day-to-day work
life.

------
chejazi
For many of the same downsides, I have chosen to sign out of iMessage on my
Mac. I used to think "wow, this so convenient!" but the accessibility ruins my
focus when I'm working.

I think there is a dramatic difference for people who are even _slightly_
socially anxious. I know I have an impulse to give social situations more
attention than what's needed, exaggerating the distractive nature of
notifications.

------
atemerev
Well I don't read my Slack feed much, except when directly mentioned. If
somebody needs everybody's attention, there is @everyone tag (not to be used
lightly, and Slack warns about that).

Otherwise, chats are there to be ignored and consumed when there is some free
time. Slack (as the name implies) is not a high-priority business
communication tool.

------
neumann
we use the group chat the same way as texts. There is an understanding that
there is no requirement to respond instantly (or at all!). It is an
announcement platform with implicit understanding it is not work related. You
want to discuss something work related, you use email.

~~~
AceyMan
>>You want to discuss something work related, you use email.

This pattern is the inverse of what I see as best practice: _email_ is the
announcement (notification) tool, and then when discourse is needed move to
"pro chat," something with logging, powerful search, so forth.

An email thread locks knowledge in the thread and it's hidden from the team
(at least until someone in the thread fwds it on).

------
irusri
It’s about a method of communication. Let's take the positive suggestions.

------
callmeed
As a side note, interesting that this is published on/by Medium but on a
custom domain. I also heard Bill Simmons mention using Medium for a new site
(on his podcast).

Curious to see where they're headed with this.

~~~
ngrilly
DHH's answer on this topic:

[https://m.signalvnoise.com/signal-v-noise-moves-to-
medium-c8...](https://m.signalvnoise.com/signal-v-noise-moves-to-
medium-c8083ce19686)

------
Kinnard
The pomodoro technique solves this problem.

------
anon987
HBR's Winter 2016 article on Collaboration Overload might interest some
people: [https://hbr.org/2016/01/collaborative-
overload](https://hbr.org/2016/01/collaborative-overload)

~~~
tannerc
Good, relevant, share. Was this posted as a stand-alone link on HN? "Those
seen as the best sources of information and in highest demand as collaborators
in their companies—have the lowest engagement and career satisfaction scores."
Yikes.

~~~
Too
Very interesting indeed. It's been posted 4 times in the past 2 months btw :)
no discussions though.

[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=https:%2F%2Fhbr.org%2F2016%2F0...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=https:%2F%2Fhbr.org%2F2016%2F01%2Fcollaborative-
overload&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story)

------
jpittis
I wish there was a way to "subtly" @ someone where the person would not be
pinged until they turned off their "I'm working" status. You could still
normally @ someone to get their immediate attention no matter what.

------
beachstartup
what i want to know is why in the world both hipchat and slack don't allow you
to open multiple rooms/channels at once in the native client.

i'm clicking at least 1000 times per day to change channels. that's not an
exaggeration.

surely i can't be the only one with this problem. or am i just missing
something super obvious here?

having said that, my current position/job/company is the last one i will ever
work where things have to get done "now" constantly. i'm done with this method
of working after i fulfuill my current obligations.

------
draw_down
The only survival tactic is to figure out the absolute minimum of group-chat
engagement you can get away with in your org without it being a problem. Leave
all the rooms and groups that are not explicitly about work. If a room is bold
because it has unread messages, that doesn't mean you need to read them right
now.

------
SandersAK
No.

Just like every other communication tool, it's not the tool it's how you use
it.

~~~
eropple
Did you read the article? Because the author _specifically_ calls out this
viewpoint as, while perhaps well-intended, ignoring the fundamental reality of
how tools encourage you to work. When the straightforward, socially-accepted
path is distraction hell, that becomes the norm for those in it regardless of
one's desired use pattern.

~~~
SandersAK
Yes I did read the article. But until someone can show me how slack
exacerbates behavior any better/worse than what email did when it first came
out, or texting, or even typed memos and letters, I'd love to see it.

~~~
biot
Points 11 and 12 of the article contrast chat with email, along with various
other minor references.

