
Forking and Dongle Jokes Don't Belong At Tech Conferences - adriarichards
http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/
======
Udo
This whole thing was a massive failure on all sides.

It was a social failure by the guys who kept on making annoying and unfunny
jokes (I think it actually starts with this obnoxious "thank me! thank me!"
stuff).

It was a total benevolence failure on part of the author who seems exceedingly
gleeful about her well-calculated coup.

It's a failure of society in general to think that "sexualized" environments
somehow attack the expected chastity of women. Or that chastity is a virtue in
the first place.

It's a failure of taste to think those kinds of comments are actually funny -
or even sexual for that matter, and that equally-as-annoying non-sexual
comments should go unpunished.

It's a failure of the geek community in general to create an environment where
a constant battle is being waged between men and women, that certainly
includes obnoxious and harassing behavior of groups of men, but it just as
well applies to women who are constantly on the prowl to detect sex stuff.

This whole thing: totally unnecessary from all sides. Instead, we could just
code in peace. But as I see it nobody is making an effort to actually question
the factors that led to this totally predictable and depressingly recurring
disaster. Everybody is just pouncing on the scandal. This energy would be
better spent by employing a healthy dose of introspection.

~~~
Camillo
The failure was not equally massive on all sides, though.

Two guys made possibly juvenile jokes to each other while sitting in the
audience at a conference.

This was a minor failure of manners.

A woman reacted by taking a creepshot of them, publicly shaming them on
Twitter, and getting them kicked out of the room without even trying to simply
talk to them. Even though she had also been making sexual jokes while at
PyCon: <https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425> And like
most cyber-bullies, she felt exhilarated by her power to dispose of people she
finds annoying without even having to interact with them as human beings:
<https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313442430848487424>

This was a failure at displaying a stable, adult personality.

The company employing one of the guys fired him.
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681> A father of three is out of a
job because a silly joke he was telling a friend was overheard by someone with
more power than sense.

This is the real massive failure.

This is the moment where the "feminism in tech" advocacy movement jumped the
shark. Not the women in tech themselves, mind you, who where there before this
thing and will be there after it. But this campaign to make everything as
comfortable as possible for a group of people who is assumed to need
protection, as interpreted by some vocal elements whose representativity is
anything but proven, has _already_ led us to establish a ridiculous police
state atmosphere where an engineer can be fired for making an off-color joke
to a friend.

This is not making tech welcoming to women. This is making tech unwelcoming
and hostile to all the geeks, men and women, who are uncomfortable with this
corporate-style PC totalitarianism.

And at this point it's not just a looming dystopia. It's happening now! A geek
lost their job for a joke, because their corporate masters were afraid of the
backlash from a cyber-bully riding the right PR wave.

This is not the kind of industry I want to work in. Please, let's stop this
insanity now.

~~~
king_jester
> A woman reacted by taking a creepshot of them

A creepshot by definition is a sexualized photograph, this doesn't count.

> publicly shaming them on Twitter

Nothing wrong with this.

> and getting them kicked out of the room without even trying to simply talk
> to them

When a con attendee violates the rules and con staff wish to pull them aside,
that is totally legit. And no, she was under no obligation to explain anything
to them.

> This was a failure at displaying a stable, adult personality.

You are implying that the OP is unstable, which is a pretty gross thing to say
and is offensive to folks with mental disability.

> The company employing one of the guys fired him.
> <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681> A father of three is out of a
> job because a silly joke he was telling a friend was overheard by someone
> with more power than sense.

The OP did not fire this individual nor escort them out of the room. Having
con staff pull the person aside is an expected outcome, but being fired is
completely outside of the OP's control and is, frankly, a huge overreaction
from a company that would rather throw people aside than actually engage in
meaningful sensitivity training for its employees.

> But this campaign to make everything as comfortable as possible for a group
> of people who is assumed to need protection...

Women in tech are not asking for others to protect them, but rather that
policies be made and enforced that allow them to participate like any other
attendee of the con. That con spaces are so unsafe in a variety of ways
doesn't highlight the need for protection, but the need to provide basic rules
of decency and to enforce them.

> ...as interpreted by some vocal elements whose representativity is anything
> but proven, has already led us to establish a ridiculous police state
> atmosphere where an engineer can be fired for making an off-color joke to a
> friend.

A conference is not a public gov't and they reserve the right to enforce
policies attendees agree to when buying tickets or signing up. A police state
this is not.

> This is not making tech welcoming to women. This is making tech unwelcoming
> and hostile to all the geeks, men and women, who are uncomfortable with this
> corporate-style PC totalitarianism.

Oddly enough the company that fired the gentleman in question fits more in
line with your feelings of corporate-style totalitarianism. However, pulling
con attendees aside who are making the space unsafe is to be expected and is a
desired thing. Also, there isn't anything PC about not making penis jokes at a
professional conference where your company is a sponsor.

> And at this point it's not just a looming dystopia. It's happening now! A
> geek lost their job for a joke, because their corporate masters were afraid
> of the backlash from a cyber-bully riding the right PR wave.

The problem you seem to have is with corporation and private business, not
someone ensuring that the conference they are attending is a safe space.

~~~
argonaut
It seems like you're being downvoted pretty heavily. Part of it probably has
to do with the views you're expressing, but I think a big part of it is _the
manner_ in which you are expressing those views. The former is probably never
going to change for you, but the latter could always be changed.

> A creepshot by definition is a sexualized photograph, this doesn't count.

I think your argument here is being overly dismissive. Sure _in the most
common usage of the term_ , it's not a creepshot. But I still think many would
agree that it's _creepy_ , as a matter of social custom, to take pictures of
random people. It never bodes well for an argument when it's focused on the
semantics of a single term.

> Nothing wrong with this.

You don't provide a justification for this. Just a matter-of-fact statement
(which is very off-putting).

> And no, she was under no obligation to explain anything to them

I agree she was not under any _obligation_ to explain anything to them. But
again, I think this argument is overly technical. Might it have been a good
idea to simply ask them to apologize, and then leave it at that? I don't think
anyone should instantly jump for the nuclear option (of getting people kicked
out).

> which is a pretty gross thing to say and is offensive to folks with mental
> disability.

I think you're getting downvoted here for throwing out what appears to be a
red herring (quibbling over a minor detail and in general being overly focused
on semantics).

> The OP did not fire this individual nor escort them out of the room

I agree with you here, but then again, keep this in mind: the Department of
Justice did not intend for Aaron Swartz to kill himself. Yet that was the
consequence of their actions. I apologize if anyone thinks this example is too
extreme.

I also feel like it's a leap to say that it is actually the company that is
being overly PC. It's more likely they fired him because of the negative media
attention.

~~~
singleuse
I wouldn't be surprise if the DoJ actually intended for Aaron Swartz to kill
himself. The US government did this before with public right activists.

And I agree that without the twitter post of the picture with the accompanying
accusing comment, there would have been no firing involved.

------
martypitt
I'm sorry, but I read this as a total overreaction on her behalf.

And, there's a massive dose of hypocrisy here, especially given the following
tweets that she sent, whilst at PyCon:

    
    
       @skwashd you should put something in your pants next time...
       like a bunch of socks inside one...large...sock.  
       TSA agent faint

[1]

How is this not a massive double standard? Is this not dripping with innuendo?

Would it have been acceptable if the jokes about forking and dongles had been
issued via tweets, rather than aloud? I doubt it. Given then terms of conduct
specify "All communication should be appropriate for a professional audience",
I doubt this complies.

Earlier, she retweeted a joke about Autism [2], a comment about a dollar bill
being "6 inches long" [3], and a crack about developers being socially
awkward. [4].

Let me be clear - I take no offence from any of these posts - and I'm sure
they are all meant in good humour ... but, that's not the point here, is it?

And, to quote the victim herself ... _"judge not yet ye be judged..."_

[1] <https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425>

[2] <https://twitter.com/TheSportsBrain/status/312293963639971842>

[3] <https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312410699311755264>

[4] <https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312293950058815488>

[5] <https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313508129704927233>

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
The reason you can't get offended by any of these is that they're in no way
offensive.

Did you read the conversation around that first tweet? It in no way degrades
anyone, with the possible exception of TSA agents.

The one "about autism" is a comparison in which someone is compare to someone
autistic because they're good at something.

It seems to me that you've basically gone looking for stuff to beat her up
with and still come up with a bunch of stuff that by your own admission isn't
offensive.

Do you seriously think those are comparable things?

~~~
DanBC
The Autism tweets have potential to be offensive because they're ignorant
about ASD.

Many people with ASDs have very poor oral communication skills.

There's a bunch of stuff there about people with ASDs having to pass - having
to fake who they are to be more neuro-typical so they can get work and avoid
bullying - which is potentially distressing if you've ever had to do it.

Your general point that this isn't as serious as sexist banter at conferences
is a good one, and I accept that.

I'm still uncomfortable that she tweeted photographs of a bunch of people,
labelling some of them as sexist, without being very clear which ones she was
accusing. There's a bunch of guys in that photo who may hate sexism and may be
working hard to avoid it (or who maybe don't care either way but are not
actively being sexist) who are now in a widely circulated photo.

EDIT: About "Being good at something" - we don't say "Women are nurturing";
"men are good at reading maps"; "people with Autism are great at math" because
it's stereotyping limiting reductionist nonsense.

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
Fair point re the autism point though worth noting that she was talking to
someone who was autistic and writes about it publicly (she replies to Maty in
the comments below the piece on this).

Regarding the photo - agreed she needs to be sure she's not catching innocent
people in shot and should probably be clearer who she is referring to.

One small thing (which I'm guessing was actually just you being brief rather
than anything more):

It's worth noting that (I'm pretty sure) that she didn't label anyone as
sexist.

She accused several people of behaving in a particular way supporting it with
a detailed account of things she personally witnessed. That seems fair enough.

But she also seems (correct me if I'm wrong) to stop short of extrapolating
that out to saying they're sexist. Many of us will have at some point said
something, knowingly or unknowingly, that was racist / sexist / homophobic but
most of us would deny being racist / sexist / homophobic. One doesn't
necessarily extend automatically from the other and it's good that she didn't
try to do that and stuck just to what she knew.

------
angersock
So, we've got the "Think of the children!" argument:

    
    
      I realized I had to do something or she would never have
      the chance to learn and love programming because the ass
      clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do 
      so.
    

I'll entertain that argument, though I think it is a _wee-bit_ overbearing on
her part to assume what will and what won't scare off this youngster; I don't
believe, for example, that simple clumsy bawd would actually be enough to ruin
software development for all people forever--and honestly, how many of us
would _want_ to work with someone who can't take the occasional obscene joke?

This is where I have a problem with the author's actions:

    
    
      I decided to do things differently this time and didn’t
      say anything to them directly. 
    

...especially when, in the same article, we have:

    
    
      I know I don’t have to be a hero in every situation.
    

Honestly? This is what passes for heroism these days? Are you kidding me?

Had the author talked to them, expressed discontent, explained why she felt
their behavior was inappropriate, and all that, I'm sure everyone would've
come out ahead. Instead, these poor folks are getting smeared for cracking
wise to each other during a conference.

No amount of hand-wringing will change the fact that the author, when given
the opportunity to directly improve the situation and help set a good example,
chose to make a mess of things for what is probably at best just ill-timed
immaturity.

If you want to help the cause of women in CS, you have to make sure that you
are setting an example where your actions cannot be interpreted as fearful,
backstabbing, or passive-aggressive. You want to be a positive role-model,
right?

EDIT: Here, a call to action. Folks, don't put up with people who are being
jerks--but at least try to explain to them _why_ they are being jerks, and try
to set a good example. A lot of people don't try to screw up things--they just
need a nudge to keep on the right path from time to time.

~~~
MetaCosm
Or just look at the domain name, the calculation, the self-aggrandizement and
realize a perfectly played marketing ploy to drive traffic to her site and get
her some future speaking engagements.

I give her props for deft manipulation of the situation for maximum effect, it
was rather brilliant... and from her perspective the worst thing is an unfunny
guy got fired, not a bad days work.

~~~
curtisspope
lol

------
grannyg00se
"What many of you don’t know is that wasn’t the first time that day I had to
address this issue around harassment and gender."

A few guys making idiotic jokes amongst themselves about forking and dongle
size is now considered harassment? I can understand they were probably being
annoying, but I'm having trouble seeing this as harassment.

~~~
japhyr
The pycon people are aiming to build a conference where women don't have to
deal with this stuff at all. It's a lofty goal, and I appreciate them for
setting a high standard.

Excusing little comments creates a culture where women have to put up with
innuendo throughout the conference. I saw these people removed from the room,
and it was done quite appropriately. (I did not hear anything directly.)

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
If anyone wonders how bad things are they might want to think about the fact
that creating an environment where this sort of thing doesn't happen is seen
as a lofty goal.

~~~
psionski
If anyone wonders how bad things are, they might want to think that talking
about sex is inappropriate in public, even though it's the most essential
driver behind human behavior and, if you believe books, only one person on
Earth was ever born without someone, somewhere having sex.

~~~
japhyr
This isn't "talking about sex". It's making comments with obvious innuendo
that is not really funny. The net effect of this is to make many people feel
unsafe and unwelcome.

I respect that many people have the ability to ignore this "noise", but we
shouldn't have to.

~~~
psionski
It's funny if you like that particular type of humor. I find penises funny,
and I can assure you many other people do too. Maybe _exactly_ because of the
inappropriateness, I don't know. They're just now doing research of jokes and
humor.

Otherwise, I fail to understand how the sexual innuendo would make her feel
unsafe or unwelcome - it was a joke between friends and it wasn't even
remotely targeted at her.

Even if it was, offering someone your huge dongle is probably the most
welcoming thing you can do, ever. It's not noise, it's a compliment.

------
monitron
I am missing something here. I get that someone could be offended by these
comments, but what does it have to do with being a woman? I know females who
would giggle at such jokes and males who would feel uncomfortable.

I feel like the person here being the most sexist is the author, for
insinuating that there's something inherent in her gender that makes "forking"
jokes offensive to her. I would welcome an explanation of what I'm not seeing.

~~~
Udo
I don't know, it might be an American cultural convention though. Where I work
I have a lot of Northern European and Asian colleages and the women here are
by far worse than the men with forwarding explicit chain emails and
questionable double entendres. Totally anecdotal, but it seems to me that
soccer-mom characters are especially active in this area.

Never mind who is doing it, I find it increddibly annoying, but it's not
harassment by any meaningful definition of the word.

My theory as to why it transcends annoyance and actually becomes a women's
issue in America is probably because women there are expected to be asexual.
So in that case it's only the men amongst themselves making these adolescent-
type comments, and that in turn would make women uncomfortable because all of
a sudden they have to deal with nasty group dynamics.

~~~
klipt
As I understand it, in Asia (and maybe Northern Europe too?) there is less of
a stigma against women in science, so the gender ratio in these fields is more
balanced.

In America though science is seen as 'nerdy' and most girls are discouraged
from being nerds. So women in science are a minority who constantly feel
defensive and overwhelmed by attention from men.

~~~
Udo
You're probably right. I remember when I was in med school in Germany, the
gender ratio was something like 70-30 women, and in the hard sciences seminars
it was also at least equal.

------
girvo
The "jokes" (which are lame) weren't directed at her from what I can gather.
The OP publicly lynched them, and one guy was fired for it.

What a crap situation all over :( I dont understand the offensiveness of what
they said, directed at themselves, just being idiots. Christ, that could
happen to me.

Is fear of reprisal better than actual understanding?

~~~
varjag
Actually it seems the jokes were fired solely because she was in the earshot.

EDIT: downvoting, seriously?

I just go by her account in the linked article, which I hope everyone
commenting took their time to read as well. Her argument is clear and isn't
anywhere as unfounded as skimming through the comments here would make you
think. She of course could be making things up, which neither me, nor anything
else who weren't there are able to verify.

~~~
DoubleMalt
Yes, because you postulate unfounded facts. Nothing in the story indicates
that the jokes where fired because she was in the earshot.

~~~
varjag
From TFA:

>He said he would be interested in forking the repo and continuing
development. That would have been fine until the guy next to him… began making
sexual forking jokes

The guy inserted his forking double innuendos in a conversation two other
persons were having. Do you seriously think he'd do that if one of those
weren't a female?

(Also, forking jokes? Is that 1995 or what)

~~~
CornishPasty
> Do you seriously think he'd do that if one of those weren't a female?

Uhh, yeah... If he was crude enough to make forking jokes, he wouldn't care
what his audience was, perhaps he'd even prefer it to be guys so they can all
laugh along with him...

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
It's a fair point, though the whole thing is slightly irrelevant (the overall
point you're responding to) as we shouldn't assume that men don't find this
stuff offensive.

------
antihero
Wait so now it is 100% un-okay to make any kind of sexual joke ever if women
are remotely in the proximity? I make sexual jokes with female friends all the
time, and they don't care if some of them are duds, because they are
reasonable people.

Surely the idea of feminism is to be treated like equal human beings, and
human beings should have some sense of humour.

I mean, of course tits in a slideshow is horrible because it makes women feel
marginalised, however forking and dongle jokes? Seriously? Fuck that. Unless
they were clearly being used to make her feel uncomfortable, what business
does she have overhearing a private conversation and being offended by it?

~~~
KuraFire
The problems with your comment are numerous. I'll list them off in order of
sentence number:

1: Strawman; assumption of binary plus suggesting Adria's post is asking for
an extreme solution ("100%"), rather than being aware of context and being
sensitive to these issues. 2: False assumption that your female friends all
don't care about your potentially sexist remarks. Chance is greater that if
they do, they wouldn't admit it to you. Furthermore, you make a wrong
accusation that because _your_ female friends don't speak up when you make bad
jokes, Adria is being unreasonable in her post. Adria is completely reasonable
and accurate with what she's saying.

3\. You continue making wrong accusations. There is a difference between
"sense of humor" and being offensive. You can be both funny (to some) and
offensive (to the same and/or other people) at the same time. If you are
offensive on something, you deserve being called out on it, however funny or
not you might've been in the eyes of people. You also don't seem to understand
your own point. Being treated like equal human beings means treating people
with respect, and making degrading, sexualized jokes at a professional event
is not treating people with respect.

4: If you want to have a "private conversation," leave the conference/event
venue and retreat to somewhere private. This was not a private conversation as
it was in the middle of an audience at a public event, in a public space. They
were surrounded by people. There was nothing "private" about this
conversation. Whispering or talking softly while you're amidst hundreds of
people does not make your conversation "private," it certainly does not grant
you immunity against shitty behavior that doesn't have a place at the event
you're at.

~~~
antihero
> assumption of binary plus suggesting Adria's post is asking for an extreme
> solution ("100%")

Well I'm not really sure what is _less_ offensive than a dongle innuendo.

> False assumption that your female friends all don't care about your
> potentially sexist remarks.

Nope, they (including my mother, who was a feminist activist back in the 80s)
have had my back in many arguments about similar sorts of things.

> Adria is completely reasonable and accurate with what she's saying.

Nope, because there is nothing reasonable about publicly shaming someone for a
joke that has nothing sexist about it because you heard some shit in a talk
and make a bizarre connection between that and it.

> Being treated like equal human beings means treating people with respect,
> and making degrading, sexualized jokes at a professional event is not
> treating people with respect.

We have different ideas of respect then. My idea of respect is to not treat
people like children that flip out because of some silly innuendo that
_doesn't actually do anything_. It's not like the pornographic slides (which I
spoke out against) or any of the other numerous offences of the tech.
industry. This is two dudes relaxing and making some non-sexist innuendo.

> shitty behavior

Point blank refuse to accept that what they did was "shitty behaviour". Loosen
the fuck up, focus on the real battles.

~~~
king_jester
> This is two dudes relaxing and making some non-sexist innuendo.

"Boys will be boys"

------
georgebarnett
Given that it would be trivial to turn around and ask them not to offend, I
fail to see the benefit in publicly going after these guys after the fact.

Mob justice doesn't allow the other party the ability to alter their behaviour
(we don't know if asking would have worked) nor does it allow the other party
to tell their side of the story.

In addition, it has a habit of causing both sides to dig their heels in and
often causes more trouble.

~~~
jjacobson
Adria, and most women, are tired of asking people one by one not to offend.
This is her asking everyone to think about what they say in public.

~~~
zshprompt
That is fine, but posting their picture is so wrong. She took their photo,
while smiling at them. And then she captioned it: "Offenders" and put it on
twitter.

This is the real issue here.

Let's for example go to your hackathon in Vegas. Lets say some asshole says
something inappropriate to one of the high school girls in attendance. Do you
really think that taking his photo, captioning it "pervert" and posting it to
twitter is the right course of action?

------
rangibaby
I guess the big factor here would be if they were purposely saying those
comments in order to be assholes.

Friends do make silly jokes with each other, right?

Surely the person could have just said something like "Guys, not funny,
because..." instead of making it a huge public shaming in the Internet Court
of Law.

~~~
ersii
Sure, friends do make silly jokes. But friends don't let friends be assholes
in public.

~~~
assholesRppl2
What is your point here...?

------
general_failure
So Lynn root says holy effing crap in the tweet.

I am so offended. Why do women say things like this. I am so hurt. I wish
someone showed her the code of conduct. Women talking about fucking is just
not nice.

~~~
grannyg00se
Not just fucking, but _holy_ fucking. One cannot help but be assaulted by the
image of their most beloved deity or earthly representative engaged in all
manner of despicable behaviour. With human waste playing some sort of horrific
part in the act. Highly offensive. Nightmare enducing, even.

------
tcskeptic
From the "Attendee Procedure for Handling Harassment PyCon 2013"
[https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-
conduct/harassment-i...](https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-
conduct/harassment-incidents/)

"Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong
community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of
respect."

------
markfinger
Given that the author was contributing to a more accessible culture at one of
the largest tech gatherings in the world, it's disappointing to see so much
disbelief and anger here.

Her response and the resulting actions may seem harsh as an isolated incident,
but they reflect her frustration with the countless times that she would have
ignored such statements.

In the context of an event that prioritises diversity and equality - such that
it has achieved 20% female attendance - the behaviour of the gentlemen
involved represents exactly what the organisers are fighting against.

The best response to this story would be for readers to reflect and to realise
how unintentionally alienating the macho nature of code communities can be.

The larger picture here is not Man vs. Woman. The issue is that we are members
of a subculture which projects an image of immature and offensive behaviour.
Behaviour which offends other races, ethnicities, ages, abilities, religions,
sexual orientations AND genders.

------
canadev
My 2c:

\- The conference organizers set a very inclusive mandate that was, perhaps
unwittingly, violated.

\- The blog post author was justified in using social media to alert the
organizers that their mandate was being violated, but this probably could have
been done privately with a similar effect.

\- It is extremely unfortunate that the violator's employers fired him. That
is a big overreaction on the employer's part.

\- The individual outcome here of the guy getting fired sucks, really badly,
but that was not the blog post author's decision to make in the first place.

\- If this helps people think twice before speaking in a public place, that's
a good thing. The community will become more inclusive as a result.

I think that this is not about political correctness but about fostering an
environment that allows everyone to feel comfortable. Perhaps the general
short term trend will be to overcorrect by being extremely polite and
reserved, but when the community embraces women and the community is evenly
split between males/females/other this will eventually fade into history as we
collectively reach a tone for public conversation that embraces as many people
as possible while still maintaining emotion.

This isn't just a tech problem. The whole world is figuring out how to
communicate with each other anew. There are gay people, ethnic minorities,
people who identify with an uncommon gender, recovered drug addicts, people
who have had family members die, vegetarians, etc. who will all take offense
to certain remarks that were par for the course some time in the recent past.
This is inevitable as the world embraces diversity and myriad forms of
identity.

I suspect things will work themselves out in time, and the world will become
more tolerant, while allowing people to poke fun at each other in a way that
doesn't take things too far for the majority of each minority.

~~~
darkarmani
> If this helps people think twice before speaking in a public place, that's a
> good thing. The community will become more inclusive as a result.

Are you (some non-offensive expletive) kidding me? This kind of overreaction
will make the community more divisive. This is scorched earth -- it's not
worth the risk socializing beyond your peers -- kind of action.

------
firloop
Google Cache as website is down
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-
and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/)

~~~
adriarichards
No worries, I added CloudFlare so the folks who were DDoS'ing my site will
have to find a new hobby.

~~~
psionski
I wonder how many women are DDoS'ing you... You are destroying their image as
normal, fun and smart colleagues. Now everyone is gonna "watch out" when they
meet a woman, "keep their mouth shut" and many other things that alienate said
woman. Guess she won't be getting invites to unofficial team-buildings,
either. Good job.

~~~
ben0x539
> Now everyone is gonna "watch out" when they meet a woman,

no, only creepy nerds will have to.

~~~
psionski
Penis jokes are creepy? o.O

~~~
nikisweeting
No, but as the readers of a site called 'Hacker' News we're bound to be called
"creepy nerds" every now and again.

~~~
psionski
OT: My solution to the "creepy" part - fly the freak flag high! By utilizing a
direct brain-to-mouth connection, people know exactly what I am, what I'm
thinking, what excites me and why (e.g. implications on humanity for some
technology). Of course, some people will be uncomfortable with some of stuff I
say, but that's _their_ problem, and most people are surprisingly
understanding :)

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alb2550
Is this some kind of joke post? Oh, it's actually serious...

I don't want to live on this planet any more.

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charleslmunger
I don't think there's anything wrong with jokes like this... except that they
exacerbate an already huge problem.

There were 4 women who graduated with a degree in CS in my class of more than
100 last year. The intro class to CS had almost 50% female enrollment. I
watched as women dropped out, one by one, switching to math or other
engineering majors, some to science or humanities. They were left out of study
groups, judged by their looks publicly and awkwardly, and basically made to
feel unwelcome.

I generally hate the privilege crusader SJW attitude, but we NEED more women
in CS. It's not good for society to have an environment that discourages women
from joining the highest paid major coming out of college. It's worth policing
our tone and being extra careful to be strictly professional. If the numbers
even out, I doubt it would be such an issue.

~~~
klipt
If you'll pardon me for quoting a recent Big Bang Theory episode...

"All your ideas address [women] at a university level. By then it is _too
late_. You need to design an outreach program that targets them at the middle
school level and sets them on an academic track towards the hard sciences."

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whbk
This is what's wrong with America today; no one can take a joke. Political
correctness, while originated with valid aims, has gotten so out of control.

Was it a mistake to converse like that in mixed company? No doubt. Was an
apology in order? Absolutely. Is a couple guys being immature going to make
sure "she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because
the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so." No, grow
up and quit being overdramatic.

I realize that it's not kosher to drop the "drama" bomb in talking about
women, but rest assured I have and will continue to use the same language to
describe men who are incredibly self-important and turn what should be
moderately uncomfortable and inappropriate situations into World War 3.

------
thirdhaf
Link to the other HN thread on this topic:
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5391667>

If the comments are to be believed someone's already lost their job over this.

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petercooper
Steer clear of humor at professional events like this, even if talking with a
friend. It's too easy to step over someone's line and come under surveillance.
If you wouldn't say it in a courtroom..

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ladyrassilon
To me they are puerile teenage boy jokes...

But they are not jokes that are actually problematic and intimidating.

More worrying overreacting on jokes that are not a real problem makes it that
much harder to object to genuinely offensive and damaging humour.

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zshprompt
there is no excuse for saying stuff like that at a conference its just not
appropriate.

but posting their picture on the internet ... there is not any excuse for that
either. its just plain wrong.

~~~
singleuse
Heck! If I can't crack an innocent dick joke at my friend while attending a
conference because others think it is inappropriate, I won't be attending any
conference anymore.

Or would it make more sense to use IRC chat to talk to the person sitting next
to me ?

------
lancewiggs
We have to get better at this.

None of the jokes were remotely funny to me, and none of them were acceptable
to me. I would have called them out. But many, most even, women don't feel
safe or empowered enough to call these out, and the majority of the posts on
this page speak as to why.

It has to stop.

I understand that the HN community has a large number of younger people, and
understanding appropriate behaviour is one of those things we need to learn
over time. The older people should be helping though.

We also have a large (ok vast) number of people who find social situations
awkward, and perhaps make the wrong choices in these events.

Welcome to the entire country of New Zealand, where I am from and live. (And
the UK is the same for that matter.) Over here we find every single social
situation awkward. We don't tell each other our names, we are intimidated by
everybody and we think it is embarrassing to speak in crowds. As a society we
rely far too heavily on alcohol to loosen our social behaviour to, and sadly
then well beyond, acceptable levels.

There are hacks to deal with these situations.

One, as I stated, is alcohol. That's almost certainly going to lead to trouble
at a work conference, and certainly as you age society expects you to leave
earlier and partake in less. But it does work at the after-parties, and many
deals are struck under the influence. But not everyone enjoys the booze-fests,
so smart conferences offer alternative gatherings.

Secondly, there are the codes of behaviour. That means understanding what
sorts of statements are unacceptable and staying away from them. We never have
to talk about not using the racist "N" word on HN, and similarly we should be
at a place where it's alarmingly obvious that we never have to talk about not
using sexist jokes and misogynist behaviour. It's a code - we need to live
with it.

Thirdly we can call this out individually, and support those who do. This blog
poster did, and the conference response was superb. A large group of us in New
Zealand decided, at an unconference, to do so as well. And within 5 minutes of
me sitting down at the next conference, organised by a group I help govern, I
was the one loudly interjecting at some very poor MC choices. Since then a
large number of the people in the room, male and female, have thanked me for
that intervention, making it easier next time.

We need to realise that as founders, contractors, consultants, funders and
employees that everything we write here is exposed to be read by not just YC,
but also other people who can do business with us. Those words will last
forever.

We can do this. We must.

------
adamnemecek
Way to be passive aggressive about it.

~~~
ghurlman
Standing up, taking pictures without hiding, engaging with staff in front of
the guys causing the problem, and pointing them out is _passive_?

What, exactly, would you have her do to escape this passivity?

~~~
adamnemecek
Passive aggressive behavior does not imply passivity. What would I have done?
Well assuming that I'd give a shit, I'd probably talk to the guys directly.
You know, "Hey guys, this is a professional conference, let's keep it
professional". Again, that's assuming that they actually said something
objectionable which I'm not sure they did.

~~~
lazylizard
yes! exactly. its like she's in class and some boys were exchanging dirty
jokes behind her and she overheard. instead of turning around to tell them to
shut up 'cos its annoying her or even just to 'shhhhhhh!' , she called the
teacher over to report them and then posted on her blog/fb/twitter that she
just got adrian/michael/david who were sitting behind her thrown out of class
for exchanging dirty jokes. and felt like a hero doing it.

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drucken
Imagine, instead of 1,000 people in a room, there are only 10. Two of them are
women.

    
    
      - the conference specifically welcomed diversity, has many women's groups 
        represented and 20% women attendance is considered notable
    
      - the keynote speaker is the creator of Python
    
      - the current speaker is discussing a successful initiative about young girls
        coding
    
      - you are one of the two women and are sitting in front of two guys who are
        bantering sexual jokes as the current speaker discusses part of your work
        and thanks others
    
      - one of the guys speaking behind you is a sponsor of the conference.
    

What would you do?

------
jjacobson
I recently helped host a hackathon in Vegas and we had several high school
kids, including girls, attend. They were nervous and felt out of place at
first among all the older developers. But they went in to win a significant
prize at the event and are now very active in the VegasTech community.

Thank god they didn't have to deal with anything like this.

------
elvis57
As a 56 year old gay man, and defender of women (I have two sisters), I
applaud your bravery and standing up for your beliefs. Much congrats to you!
You stood up for yourself, and you are a winner! Thanks for doing so.

Sincerely, Tim Monteith

------
xxxxxxxxxxx
Petition to get Alex his job back:
[http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-
hi...](http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-his-job-
back/)

~~~
mr-hank
Actually, I'm not Alex. Alex was not involved in this incident. He still has a
job, but I'm sure he appreciates the support.

~~~
reaclmbs
If you live or are willing to relocate to SF, put your email in your profile.
I bet a lot of people would interview you in a heartbeat.

~~~
dakinsloss
Agree. I would.

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lazylizard
she could change seats. or turn around and speak to them and tell them she can
overhear them and its not cool.

why turn it into some sort of vigilante prosecution of juvenile behaviour +
public lynching? i'd like to imagine most people don't have the kind of
moral/cutural baggage to want to do that to strangers they happen to
overhear/pass by/randomly encounter..

------
kaoD
Oh boy, geeks are awful at coming up with pick-up lines.

It's like watching The Big Bang Theory.

~~~
klipt
There's no evidence this was a "pick up line".

~~~
kaoD
I was just kidding.

