
The Startup Life Is Not For Everyone - harrisonweber
http://alexstechthoughts.com/post/61021544789/stop-trying-to-force-the-startup-life-on-everyone-it
======
acjohnson55
"One thing that is not spoken about in the early-stage tech world is how many
startup founders come from money or stability. I’m by no means saying this
applies to all founders or early-stage startup employees. But if you dig a
little, you will see the “risk” that some of these people are taking is not as
risky as they may seem."

This is really true. The business risk may be very real, but the personal risk
for many is relatively limited. For some people, going without a steady income
is to truly be without a safety net and risk having to sleep in a shelter. For
me, when I started my company, I went in knowing that if we ran out of money,
I could get a nice dev job within a few weeks and not only bounce back, but
bounce _forward_ (or at least sideways). If things went _really_ sour, I might
even have to move back to my hometown for a couple months. Gasp!

In this world, agency is a privilege that's hard to measure. I feel like
sometimes people underrate their own and mythologize their self-madeness, but
overrate that of others and pathologize them as lazy or cowardly.

~~~
emilyst
Right. If I worked for a startup that went south, I'd be homeless.

~~~
shortlived
There are a lot of people who take for granted that they have a family/town to
return to if things go really bad. I've got that safety net and appreciate it
very much. My wife (before she met me) did not. It's taught me a lot and makes
me cringe when people start talking about "risking it all".

------
gregd
As a 46 year old, white male with almost 20 years of IT experience, what I
hear a lot of these startups saying is, "We don't really give a shit about
you, your life or your time. We want to suck out a decades worth of input in
2-3 years and when you burn out, fuck you. Don't let the door hit you on the
ass on the way out."

Who wants to live like that? These expectations will continue to gradually get
WORSE...if you can imagine that. Until (and if) they run out of new recruits
who don't know any better.

The fact that a startup founder tweeted "disappointment" about a very personal
choice that a developer made makes me inclined to believe that I would run
very, very, very far away from working for this person.

~~~
jasonkester
You see that as a downside. I see it as an upside.

I'm in the same place as you (42/20), and I've always _loved_ working for
startups. Just make sure they're paying you by the hour (contracts are best)
and let them suck as much of your experience out as they need. And be sure to
charge accordingly, since the thing you're selling isn't your butt in a seat,
but the 20 years of accumulated knowledge and that giant \code\ folder on your
hard drive with the solution to every problem they could conceivably have
solved half a dozen times for previous gigs.

Incidentally, "2 years, then dodge the door" is a great way to get one's self
acquainted with tons of technology and stay up to date on the flavor of the
month while always having a good explanation for moving from job to job.
Better still is "6 months then straight into the ground", having build
something big and cool from a green field and watched the kids burn through
their VC while buying you and the dev team fun toys to play with.

I guess it's all about outlook. If you look at it as them taking advantage of
you, well, maybe they are. If you look at it as them needing you a lot more
than you need them, well, that's a pretty fun (and lucrative) place to be.

Edit: To be clear, in the above scenario, 40 hour work weeks (or whatever
makes sense for you) are non-negotiable. They are free to work 60 hour weeks
if they like. Your contract should include the understanding that you don't
plan to follow suit. Extra hours should be rare, on your terms, and well paid.

~~~
slantyyz
I have a slightly different view (43/20).

I like to work for small companies that have a bit of startup thinking (let's
get things done, build cool stuff and be open minded about fresh and
contrarian ideas) but that are run by people who have a more balanced view of
how much time their employees should work.

At my stage in life (speaking only for myself), I don't buy into those BS
sales jobs from hiring managers of getting rich on options, working until
you're burnt out because you're changing the world, etc.

~~~
rfnslyr
Only work on contract. Only bill by hour, day, or week (depending on how good
you are). I don't believe in loyalty to a company or scene. I'm here to make
money to fund my own life, that's it.

~~~
slantyyz
It is one way to go, but I think it's still important to set limits.

Getting paid by the hour by a company willing you pay you overtime to be
overworked still means that there's a risk of burning out.

~~~
rfnslyr
I charge more for hours beyond 9-5.

------
jasonkester
The cool thing about starting your own business is that you can build it
however you like.

You can work 80 hour weeks or 10 hour weeks. Your choice. You can neglect your
friends, family and health, and work yourself into the ground. Or not. Again,
entirely up to you.

Surprisingly, the end result will probably be roughly the same. If you're good
at building software, and work in bursts like most of us do, then a few good
deep sessions a week will get your thing built plenty fast. And since so much
of the other 90% of building a successful business is measured in "calendar
time", it really doesn't hurt much if you don't get in 60 good hours one week.

Naturally, if you take VC money, they might prefer you do things the "normal"
way. Fortunately, that's another thing you get to decide whether you want to
do.

~~~
jacquesm
The freedom is indeed one of the biggest draws but I've found that with any
degree of success there is also an automatic reduction in freedom because your
responsibilities go up. Hard to balance that.

~~~
kghose
This is a pretty insightful statement. I would modify that a little bit from
'success' to advancement. In academia you non-academic duties increase as you
advance. I've seen a handful of people pull things off such that they have a
small lab and don't put in for promotion (they stay associate or instructor).
They trade pay for less management duties.

------
vixus
Frankly, I'm surprised the attitude of many people seems to be: "I'm going to
work at an established company for X years to get experience, then break off
to start my own."

Then they write blog posts and postmortems about how they lost their friends
and spouses, became horribly unhealthy and severely depressed. But it was
worth it in the end, of course.

------
johnthealy3
The article talks about startup founders having low risk because of money and
stability, and that's absolutely true in my experience (especially of people
who jump into startups immediately out of college).

What the article fails to mention, and I think is just as important, is that
the RELATIVE risk of the startup lifestyle continues to decline as
traditional, "stable" jobs slowly become a thing of the past. I'm part of a
small (but growing) freelancer agency, and when I try to convince others to
join my firm, relative risk is a large part of my pitch.

When the "safe" option is to work at a bank or consulting firm, is it really
all that safe? Many students think so, but have to be reminded that some of
these firms average less than two years of tenure per new employee. Large tech
companies have been somewhat safe over the past 5-10 years, but still put you
at the mercy of corporate-scale layoffs that may have more to do with your
product and the company's finances than your skills.

In a startup or small company, the risks are much more upfront and come with
corresponding compensation, usually in the form of equity with growth
potential. Large companies typically do not reward their employees for the
risk they assume, because there is a perpetuated assumption that they provide
a high level of security. So if we're all forced to bear a high level of risk,
at least we should be compensated for it.

------
toddmorey
This is an interesting perspective. However, I come for a different vantage
point: I'm a terrible employee and I feel that the world worked hard to force
a "corporate career path" on the wrong guy for years. Perhaps startup life
should be always an anomaly because it isn't for everyone, but it's the only
place I've ever felt like I was a meaningful part of meaningful work.

I do think it's still underrepresented as an option, though that appears to be
improving. Also, access to investment and radically cheaper startup costs have
made this very difficult path just a little less difficult. I think it's an
amazing time to start something, an amazing time to be an indy developer. I
also think these early-stage laboratories will help replenish some of the SMBs
America has lost on the street corners. Maybe the days where you can make a
living as a local grocer are gone. But the days to make a living as an
innovative, startup grocery delivery service are just beginning.

EDIT: It's timely that the post immediately under this one on the front page
is "Pushed to the limit as a banking intern". Maybe it's just my nature, but I
didn't work less in a corporate environment. I was just more disconnected to
my work and the results. I didn't feel the same impact.

~~~
Clanan
I'm not so sure your vantage point is that different. The issue here is risk.
The bank engineer may love the idea of doing a startup, but if they're like
me, it's vitally important that one's spouse and children get to eat every
day. More important than having meaningful work. In reality the decision isn't
that stark, but it does serve to highlight the thought process.

------
nemesisj
One of the things we talk about a lot is how overtime and working more than
40-50 hours a week is always a management failure. We didn't raise enough
money, or plan well enough, or get enough people, or understand what we were
doing, etc. We work really really hard, but we make sure it's within those
parameters, except in some really rare emergency scenarios.

During interviews, people always look at me like I have two heads when I try
to actively talk them out of doing startup. It's not romantic, it's not
horrible, it's just different. At different times people will be amenable to
that lifestyle, but not always.

I get so tired of everyone talking about "startup life" and I think a lot of
it is just tagalong marketing. We can't figure out ways of pumping up our
businesses or what we're doing so we just tag onto this shiny intangible
lifestyle that's already marketed by movies or other blogs.

Startup life has always been bullshit. Making cool things with great people
has always been cool. No matter what stage you're doing that in.

~~~
sannabonner
I'm glad to read this, nemesisj. I was just reading last night the parameters
for applying my startup idea for inclusion in the YC program, and was getting
pretty excited that such a program exists.

I'm new to actually trying to be an entrepreneur (as opposed to just thinking
about it), and it is encouraging to read that your version of working more
than fairly-standard full time is management failure. I agree entirely.

~~~
nemesisj
I think the keys are to develop habits around working full-out during the day,
planning well, not allowing yourself to inflict a culture that relies
constantly on heroics for success, and taking responsibility for when things
don't go as planned. That's hard to do, and requires true leadership. I've
been on both sides (success and failure) in that area. Good luck!

------
graycat
A 'startup' need not be something in Silicon Valley, based on information
technology, venture funded, and intended for an exit at $1+ billion.

Working at GM, GE, IBM, Cisco, or any of a long list of other famous, big
companies tends to be a long walk on a short pier and not a 'career' with
which one can get hired, buy a house, support a family, grow in prosperity,
pay for college for the kids, and retire comfortably.

Why? Such a career needs to last about 45 years, and in all of the history of
the US since the Industrial Revolution there has been only a tiny fraction of
jobs in large corporations that could be the basis of such a career.

E.g., might have joined IBM in 1950 and then, 44 years later, lost the job
when the company lost $16 billion and went from 407,000 employees down to
209,000 and cleared out rush hour traffic jams in a large chunk of Upstate NY.
That was about the best shot at a 45 year career in IBM: Join before 1950? IBM
was not much of a company then. Join IBM after 1950? Likely the job would last
less than the 44 years of my example.

GM? Shipped most of its jobs out of the US, helped Detroit and much of
Michigan and much of the Midwest Rust Belt look like a war zone, and went
bankrupt.

GE? Discovered that good products made in Japan sold quantity 1 retail in the
US for less than the direct, marginal manufacturing cost at GE, and GE closed
down big chunks of their business.

So, what's keeping people in the US employed? Mostly small businesses,
especially ones with a geographical barrier to entry. Such businesses do need
to be started and, thus, are _startups_. The US has millions of such
businesses all across the US in big cities down to towns that are just
crossroads. Net, _startups_ are most of what is keeping the US economy
running.

So, the broad idea that _startups_ are rare and strange with a lot of obscure
aspects is a bit silly. E.g., long lists of points of tricky advice on just
how to do a _startup_ are a big silly for nearly all US startups. E.g., in my
neighborhood, the guys mowing grass show up with a relatively new truck worth,
say, $30,000, towing a trailer with at least one lawnmower worth maybe $15,000
-- could plug together quite a server farm for that much cash.

------
VaedaStrike
I think that while it's certainly not for everyone I think there's a powerful
reason to overly emphasize and encourage it.

Not to promote needless suffering, but rather simply because, at the end of
the day, they are one of the principle sparks that makes the other jobs
possible. My relatively stable corporate existence, even if plagued by all the
hallmarks of big dumb corporatism(s), is a blessing (and I do consider it a
blessing, especially for where I'm at in my life) that was made possible by a
key core of individuals who were the ignition points for the seeming stability
I have access to now.

I believe that the very reason to push, even to some excess, even to the point
of some idealizing, of start-up life is among a few vital needs that must be
fulfilled in a society if that society has hopes to insure longer term
availability of stable options among all possible economic paths.

Like industrialized agriculture, for all of it's ills, evils and problems, the
shear population, as it exists and continues, demands some version, some
manifestation, of a system that shares at least some of the key attributes.

Start-up culture is both the seeding and blood letting that makes stable
private and public professions possible. In many ways it's the agriculture of
our day. Subject to whims of forces akin to climate and nature, but who's
volatility makes all the growth and upward movement possible.

------
paulrademacher
What's all this gunk about "startups aren't for everyone, they're HARD WORK"??
A big-company job is hard work too, if you're a driven person.

~~~
anExcitedBeast
It's not about hard work, it's about how much of who you are must be devoted
to the career. I work very hard at a 400 person company. but I get to go home
after about 42-48 hours a week and enjoy being me. That involves chess,
guitar, politics, and billiards. Founders and ground floor engineers ARE the
business, the code, and the company.

~~~
slantyyz
This is important. I'll also bet you get some of your best work ideas during
your downtime too.

------
bchjam
Studies have shown that people are much happier when they're doing self-
directed work.

I also think that lamenting losing talent to a bank might have more to do with
the perceived negative value that modern banks bring to humanity.

------
ianstallings
I just did three startups, all back to back, in NYC. I needed a break and less
risk in my life. I got a sudden mid-life urge to settle down so I moved to the
suburbs and I now have an easy, well paying, enterprise job. No teams to
manage, no insane schedules, no Sunday morning phone calls, no 80 hour weeks,
no more high blood pressure or anxiety attacks. No equity either, but I'll
sacrifice that now for my non-startup job. Just a 40 hour work week and great
salary/benefits. I won't get rich. But I'm okay with that at this moment. I do
want to start a business in the future, but it will be a lifestyle business
where I can set my own hours and pick my projects.

~~~
zwieback
I'm in year 14 of my corporate job after three startups in the 90s (yes, we
had them back then.) I can't believe how great my current job is but I'm still
thinking about going back to startups once the job security is less important
(e.g. once my kids are rich enough to support me!)

------
efuquen
In terms of what you said about risk, I think most of the time when people
talk about a startup being a risk what they mean is that the business itself
is risky, that it's most likely going to fail. While sometimes it might be the
case most of the time I don't think people are talking about any personal or
financial risk to the founders, though that's just my perception and what I've
always understood it to be meant when people talked about risk in a startup.
Of course, a founder can definitely take on some personal or financial risk in
a startup but I've rarely seen or heard of cases like that, when we talk about
startups most of the time we talk about some sortof VC funded entity. Although
plenty of small businesses are funded by the business owner, but most small
businesses aren't really "startups" either.

Finally, there is the risk of failure to the founders, which can be quite
demoralizing and possibly personally devastating, especially if it's the first
time. I think how much a failure would impact someone just depends on their
personality and how easily they can mentally move on, even if it didn't have
any major financial impact. I mean, it is quite a bit of time and effort that
could be wasted on something that ultimately fails; unless you view it as a
learning experience and draw the right lessons and are able to move on to the
next thing, whether it's another startup or more stable employment at a
company that already went through the risky phase and won.

------
kokey
Many aspects of this post somehow resonated with me. I spent many years in
corporate employment because I don't have any backup options. I also feel like
I've wasted some time where others learn more about business the hard way. I'm
now part of a startup, after my last jobs were with banks, and I believe the
route from startup to corporate or the other way around can lead to a similar
destination. The only difference is what experience you bring to the table,
and a wider range of it is better for everyone.

------
adamzerner
This is a straw man argument
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)).

No one is saying that startups are for everyone. People just say that they're
undervalued. The upside is ignored (probably because of scope insensitivity
[[http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Scope_insensitivity]](http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Scope_insensitivity\])),
and the risks are misunderstood.

------
JoeAltmaier
Most folks work hard at any job, in this economy. Why not a startup, where you
share equity?

There's a lot of FUD about startup life, but really its just work, except with
ambitious peers and cool projects. Sure it might fail at any time, but so can
any job (speaking as a guy laid off from Dell when Dell never laid people
off).

I like this fable: we're surfing, swimming, diving off the coast. A big boat
comes by, and the people lean over the rail and say "Hey! Get out of the
water! There are sharks and fish and pointy coral in there! And you're getting
all wet and hot! You will probably drown!"

You can laugh, and try to explain that is pretty easy to swim, and you're all
looking out for each other, and sharks don't really attack people very often,
but you will never ever convince those dry people on the boat that its ok,
really, and actually pretty fun out there.

------
chromaton
There are many paths other than "work as a corporate drone" or "go all in on a
risky startup". There are a good number of resources out there which can help
you figure out how to set up a small SaaS business online or become a
consultant. For example, check out Patrick (patio11) McKenzie's blog, or the
Startups for the Rest of Us podcast.

The thing is, if you read Hacker News, Tech Crunch, and the like, they give
the impression that you need venture capital to be a success. This is due to
editorial bias on the part of the site owners. Start looking farther afield
and trying things on your own and you'll notice that the promotion of venture
capital is quite self serving.

------
Swizec
I honestly think that these days if you're young and are not an engineer or
something similar that's got jobs chasing you, being an entrepreneur (not
necessarily a startup) is the only option.

Also, people in general believe their choices are the best choices and will go
to great lengths to tell everyone that their own choices were better. Just one
of those gorgeous biases we've got.

~~~
sp332
There's more to retail than shelf-stockers. Would you count running a brick-
and-mortar store as being an entrepreneur?

~~~
harrisonweber
I would. Again, small biz VS startup.

------
crusso
I object to the whole context of an article that misuses the language to make
its point.

No one is "forcing" anyone to pursue a startup life.

------
sidcool
But no one is judging anyone, right?

------
peter303
The author also doesnt mention that "open desk" and round the cloack
hackathons doesnt necessarily devlop the most creative or stable software.
I've seen good stuff written at a more measured pace.

------
progx
Stop writing about Stop something, only to get some visitors to your page.

If anybody stop doing something, because somebody said to stop, then nobody
will do anything.

------
beachstartup
"IT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE."

whenever i hear "it's not for everyone" i always hear that little bit of
condescension.

------
nsxwolf
This is oversensitivity. No one has ever tried to force the startup life on me
and if someone tried to shame me into it I would laugh in their face.

Now, if this were an article about established companies treating their
employees like they were in a startup, you'd have something there.

