
Sprint Is Throttling Skype, Study Finds - hyperrail
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-08/sprint-is-throttling-microsoft-s-skype-service-study-finds
======
qyz721
Using a SIM card on a recent trip to Mexico, where net neutrality was never a
thing, was really interesting.

Cell service plans come with separate tariffs for regular data and "social"
data, which works only in the walled garden of Facebook, WhatsApp, Snapchat,
Insta, etc., and the "social" data is much cheaper.

Even though the positive reinforcement was not as draconian as stuff like
this, where they're obviously trying to dissuade use, it was still pretty
creepy.

~~~
Havoc
Local CDN im guessing. We had the same thing in South Africa. For a while you
could get 90% discounted local only data.

~~~
MaxBarraclough
> For a while you could get 90% discounted local only data.

Interesting idea. It's usually the last-mile that's the hard part - I presume
that's the reason it's no longer done?

Did 'local content' include, say, Netflix?

~~~
Havoc
>Interesting idea.

Even better is the eco-system it spawned. Myself and others ended up with 2
connections & network magic to split traffic dynamically to optimise cost.

Netflix wasn't a thing back then in SA (and even now isn't big).

However these local only packages did come with access to the ISP's usenet
server so people downloaded mountains of ahem linux ISOs.

>I presume that's the reason it's no longer done?

No. Couple of big undersea cables hit SA shortly after. So current thinking is
more managing capacity during peak times with various incentives ("night time
data" etc)

------
sonnyblarney
Tip of the iceberg.

Carriers see communication services as their turf, and they go to byzantine
lengths to protect that.

Politically it can get funny.

If you work at a handset manufacturer, and sit in on sales calls, and one of
your team members brings up anything _remotely_ related to this or VOIP, you
might see the carrier buyers get visibly upset and literally walk out of the
room.

I could never tell if they were 'actually' upset, or 'pretend professionally'
upset.

But it's funny the games that are played.

~~~
giancarlostoro
You know what upsets me is that I can call people on my phone and the audio
quality is terrible if they're not on the same carrier (T-Mobile in the USA).
I had to tell my friend to just call me on Skype the next time cause it's
always a struggle to hear them clearly over the phone. I can't believe that my
carrier has "HD Calling" but everyone else sounds like the calls being patched
through a sewage pipe.

~~~
village-idiot
What’s shocking is the first time you go from a cell phone to a high quality
office phone (yes, I’m young). Holy crap are modern phones crystal clear, the
stuff we’ve accepted on cell phones is _garbage_ in comparison.

~~~
njarboe
Old ma bell was a monopoly and long distance cost over a dollar a minute, but
land lines were crystal clear for half a century and more. The shape of old
phones also were really great for isolating the phone conversation from
everything else.

------
finleymedia
This is key - "The researchers bought a Sprint wireless plan to try to detect
throttling of Skype in the lab, but couldn’t replicate the experience of the
Wehe app users. This is likely because it affects only certain subscription
plans, but not the one the researchers purchased, they said."

One app is saying this is occurring without anyone being able to duplicate the
claim in a lab. Bloomberg could do better by getting a second source.

------
hyperrail
Also see the researchers' own page:
[https://dd.meddle.mobi/USStats.html](https://dd.meddle.mobi/USStats.html)

------
filmgirlcw
Sprint is legit garbage, but it is worth noting that even under Wheeler, Net
Neutrality rules have _never_ applied to mobile networks. It’s a big reason
many of us were disappointed with the legislation even when it was passed. I’d
rather have something than nothing, but mobile carriers have always been
expent from NN.

~~~
dawnerd
Tmobile made this clear to me too when I complained about their older zero-
rating policy at the time. It was highly unfair to smaller companies without
the means to implement their standards for video.

~~~
toomuchtodo
T-mobile customer here who supports zero rating. Their standards are extremely
straight forward to implement to zero rate, and there is minimal burden to
implement. This was my experience simply as a facilitator to enable a public
radio station I enjoy to be zero rated.

------
TangoTrotFox
One thing most people do not understand is that the former net neutrality
rules did not prohibit throttling, in and of itself. Every rule and clause in
the net neutrality bill has a little clause following " _Though shall not
[...] except for reasonable network management._ " What's "reasonable network
management"? 400+ pages and it was not well defined. It's something that would
be decided on a case-by-case basis. But ultimately if any carrier could create
a compelling argument that some service was causing undue congestion on their
network, they had complete freedom to throttle it.

As an aside you'll note that now, and then, when companies are found to be
doing they'll immediately scream "reasonable network management." Search for
_sprint "reasonable network management"_ and you'll get years of results such
as [1][2][3]. Give them a cut of the profits and suddenly that congestion
would be considered much more reasonable - a la Netflix/Comcast.

[1] - [https://www.sprint.com/en/legal/legal-regulatory-and-
consume...](https://www.sprint.com/en/legal/legal-regulatory-and-consumer-
resources.html)

[2] - [https://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2015/10/nonpr...](https://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2015/10/nonprofit-groups-say-sprint-will-unfairly-throttle-data-
after-wimax-shutdown/)

[3] - [https://civsourceonline.com/2015/10/15/sprint-sued-by-non-
pr...](https://civsourceonline.com/2015/10/15/sprint-sued-by-non-profits-over-
clearwire-lease-for-wimax/)

------
aberoham
My Zoom meetings via CenturyLink have become progressively worse since Net
Neutrality bit the dust. Anyone else feel the same?

~~~
rhexs
I've had Centurylink for years (fiber and DSL) and they consistently seem to
throttle most video sites. Netflix/youtube has always been hit or miss. If you
ask about this on reddit or dslreports you immediately get shills claiming
that they would never do that / it's impossible. Weird.

Using a VPN always fixes the issue.

~~~
metildaa
Have you compared IPv4 versus IPv6 performance? Centurylink seems to have much
better peering via IPv6 (still a bit slow to certain destinations though), in
part because they only peer with Hurricane Electric and other non-Tier 1's for
IPv6.

~~~
rhexs
Nope. I’ll try that out. My modem is only getting a ipv4 address right now,
but maybe I can configure it.

~~~
rhexs
Shucks. No ipv6 support in my area.

~~~
metildaa
Try 6RD, that is what I use.

------
codezero
I’m a sprint customer and the throttling is so overt I’m surprised it took any
amount of stuff to spot it.

------
exabrial
Does Skype still do the supernode p2p architecture?

~~~
ComputerGuru
No, that was phased out when they merged infrastructures with Microsoft’s
existing, post-merge.

~~~
intralizee
Anyone know why they phased that out? Seems like a performance benefit and not
many downsides I can think about warranting removal.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Definitely is about mobile, where users' devices are frequently not actively
running the app at the same time.

Skype used to have a ton of issues with certain features requiring both
parties be online. For instance, since it was peer-to-peer, sharing pictures
and/or file attachments would fail if you weren't online at the same time as
the other person, and of course, you were subject to the their upload speed
for you (and each other person in a chatroom) to download it.

~~~
Fellshard
Not that it's any more reliable now.

------
i_feel_great
Australia <-> India Skype has become awful for us in the last 6 months or so.
Does anyone know if this is related?

~~~
raincom
Sprint is a mobile network operator in the states. I don't think it is related
to your issue.

~~~
dsl
Sprint is a telecommunications company, not just a mobile operator. They
actually operate a 100G backbone between Australia and India (Perth to Mumbai
via the SWE3 cable), so grand-parents question isn't that unreasonable.

[https://www.sprint.net/images/network_maps/full/Global-
Globa...](https://www.sprint.net/images/network_maps/full/Global-Global-
IP.png)

~~~
callumjones
Do they or is it just indirect via a consortium? Looking at this
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEA-ME-
WE_3](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEA-ME-WE_3) it doesn’t look to be
directly managed by Sprint.

~~~
dsl
Almost all undersea cables are owned by consortiums that are responsible for
installation and ongoing maintenance. Telecoms like Sprint or Level 3 buy
fiber pairs and run the gear on each end.

------
warriormonk5
They might just be confusing that with sprint being an awful network in
general.

------
JustSomeNobody
I sure hope the FTC does something about this!

~~~
brownbat
Another agency, the FCC, was founded on the premise that we need to ensure
some communicators don't degrade the communications of others unintentionally.
Spectrum needs management.

It's funny we lack the same conviction when ITCs actively degrade each
other...

~~~
WillPostForFood
With Democrats in control of the House, they can pass Net Neutrality and put
some pressure on the Senate. Or package in with a spending deal.

~~~
labster
Haha, hilarious man. I'm looking forward to two years of total gridlock in the
U.S. government. No one is in a mood to compromise on anything at all, least
of all a fringe issue like Net Neutrality that motivates, like, fifty people
to the polls.

~~~
danso
On the contrary, net neutrality being a niche issue might make it more likely
for politicians to agree on action. NN is a vague, new enough issue that it
can be spun to the public in appealing ways. And the battle lines on which
legislators are willing to die on haven’t yet been drawn. Think back to the
SOPA bill back in 2013. It had massive bipartisan support, and a huge number
of listed cosponsors [0], yet Congress folded like a chair on the day of the
blackout protest. Not just because the protest was large, but because they had
little to gain by sticking to their positions. Compare this to how Congress
members change in no significant way from their campaign promises on gun and
abortion issues.

[0]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Members_of_the_U.S._...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Members_of_the_U.S._Congress_who_support_or_oppose_SOPA/PIPA)

edit: fixed typo/grammar

------
newsbinator
Not that it's Skype's fault they're getting throttled, but I wish I had an
alternative to Skype.

I haven't found a service that lets me dial worldwide (particularly
USA/Canada) at anywhere near the rates Skype offers.

~~~
chmars
Do you really still need to dial? Haven’t all the persons you call a computer
(smartphone!) with free VoIP capabilities?

~~~
Tor3
When I'm in Japan and want to talk with my insurance company, bank, or airline
over on the other side of the world, there's just one way: A phone number.
Which is the (main) reason I'm still using Skype. There are other, and
sometimes better, alternatives for video/chat/group chats/photos etc. But
still nothing that competes with Skype's phone support, although Skype in
general has degenerated a lot since the early days.

~~~
jackson1way
I use Google Voice For the same reason!

It‘s even better: it has a free US phone number. So my insurance could call me
on that number while I‘m in Japan.

~~~
Tor3
Google Voice as a service is limited to the US and Canada, so if you're a
North American it's a good alternative I guess. Otherwise, not so much.

------
edoo
I've used Sprint before. It almost seems like all websites are throttled.

------
j45
Since Skype left its p2p roots, has it ever had enough bandwidth?

------
legohead
All the carriers say straight on their website they are throttling you. Want
HD video? Have to pay for the upgraded super version or whatever.

------
vectorEQ
the services named are all quite high bandwidth compared to regular websites.
can it not be that this is automated throttling to prevent congestion on parts
of the networks?

------
sova
Well Microsoft changed the underlying p2pness of skype so I can't blame Sprint
for throttling that laggy buggy inconsistent network topology ineptly and
inaptly still referred to as "Skype" R.I.P.

------
andrewflnr
Has there been more Bloomberg on the front page since the SuperMicro thing, or
am I just noticing it more?

~~~
slededit
I think you are noticing it more. It’s always been a popular source here.

------
User23
Did anyone else see this headline and hope for an anti-scrum rant?

------
fjsolwmv
Does Sprint sell video chat? I don't understand the anticompetitveness angle.
Voice calls are free on cell phone networks, and Skype users pay for data. How
would Sprint profit from giving its users a bad Skype experience?

Something doesn't add up.

~~~
aaaaaaaaaab
>Voice calls are free on cell phone networks

Since when?

~~~
dboreham
Since in the USA. Assuming you already need to pay for data. And don't want to
make voice calls to other countries.

~~~
vinay427
What? There are lots of plans in the US with data that don't have unlimited
calling.

~~~
dboreham
I bet they exist somewhere but a quick survey of prepaid/budget services
(Cricket, Straighttalk, USMobile, ...) shows that they all bundle unlimited
calling with any plan that has data. All the major post paid carriers have
been on unlimited calling plans for many years.

