
Intel's CIP wants to collect the “categories of websites you visit” - taspeotis
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/topics/idsa-cip.html#CollectedData
======
rswail
Why on earth would the "category of web sites" be of possible use other than
selling the data?

Telemetry is now an attack vector for privacy in general because no one can be
trusted with the data.

~~~
SamuelAdams
Not trying to defend intel, just trying to offer a (somewhat justified)
answer:

If people are using more streaming services, that means Intel should focus
more on their Integrated Graphics platforms. If people are downloading
significantly more data than ever before, they should probably make sure their
networking drivers receive more support.

Knowing how people use their PC's, even by category, can help Intel manage its
driver development.

~~~
jiofih
That’s a very poor excuse for mass collection of personal data. They can
easily figure that out from commercial datasets, or even a small-scale
research effort.

~~~
gowld
> a small-scale research effort.

Like the Computing Improvement Program, hosted on an obscure web page and
systray menu?

~~~
heavyset_go
Typically research is voluntary and involves getting informed consent from
involved parties.

~~~
hcs
Is this not voluntary?

> Q: How do I participate in the Intel® Computing Improvement Program?

> A: When you download and install the Intel® Computing Improvement Program,
> click Accept on the invitation to join.

~~~
piracy1
Ya, I think the key bit of spook that can be derived from the title is that
they're using the CPUs to do this, maybe like they're baking it into Intel ME.
That's what I first thought until I read the article. It's just intel saying,
hey come install our spyware. However it's worth nothing that I bet this will
come preinstalled on a ton of devices which is in fact spooky.

------
F147H34D
> Data collected from your system is temporarily stored locally on your system
> before being uploaded to a secure cloud environment, which may be physically
> located in accordance with Intel’s Privacy Notice.

> Intel keeps the data for a maximum of seven years. Intel takes reasonable
> steps to reduce the risk that any data kept for over three years can be
> traced to a particular computer.

Tied to user for 3 years. From a law enforcement perspective I’m more
interested in the ‘other devices in your computing environment’. They state
they are generating a random UID tied to your system, so I assume if I know
the UID from the suspect computer then a warrant could be issued to Intel for
this information.

~~~
kabdib
If it's kept over three years, you have to believe that there are backups of
the data made, and that the backups are retained forever. So ANY persistent
mapping from the data to a specific computer is effectively permanent the
moment it hits their backend (maybe someone has to load a tape, so it's not
instantaneous, but still available to a warrant or subpoena or shenanigans).

If there is _any_ "risk that any data ... can be traced to a particular
computer" on day 1 that the stuff is stored, then that risk never goes away.

------
jraph
Completely off-topic, but I discovered the existence of the <details> HTML tag
[1] with this page.

I was surprised that I could unfold these questions at all with Javascript
disabled. Usually, I am stuck with this kind of pages.

Please webmasters, use <details> for your FAQs if you want foldable questions.

[1] [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/de...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/details)

~~~
grenoire
The issue is that the compatibility and styling (animations etc.) are not
fully supported or available. This should have been standardised much earlier,
alas here we are with a half-assed solution to a very common pattern.

~~~
jraph
I guess you can always hack something in Javascript if you wish to have
animations, which is always better than to go with an implementation in full
Javascript.

~~~
izietto
There are pretty straightforward CSS-only solutions too, for example:
[https://stackoverflow.com/a/38215801/584552](https://stackoverflow.com/a/38215801/584552)

~~~
aoeusnth1
And I bet the CSS animations look a lot less janky than JS equivalents.

------
saagarjha
If I’m understanding this right, Intel looks at your _web browsing_ to
optimize their _drivers_? Why would you ever willfully share this information
with Intel?

~~~
retSava
Well, they state it in the link:

> Intel uses information about your computer's performance to make product
> improvements that may benefit you in the future.

I'm sure you'll feel better knowing this. /s

~~~
skykooler
i.e. even if they're being completely honest, it doesn't benefit you unless
you go back and buy another Intel CPU five years down the line.

------
rubyn00bie
Just my two cents...

I think they're using this data to help guide how they should compete with AMD
and ARM.

They also say they're saving the RAM used and software applications you use...
To me that's about figuring out what's more important to end users; incredibly
powerful (multi-core) machines or incredibly efficient (fastest single
threaded speed per watt) ones.

Right now Intel is getting hammered on both fronts with ARM chips dangerously
fast for single threaded applications (A13) and AMD totally slaughtering their
desktop/server market... They have no modem business, and if I was Intel, I'd
be pretty fucking scared right now. The weight of the rest of the industry
might be large enough now to truly make 'em irrelevant.

As a result, they need to be very, very careful about where they invest
resources as the future could be very dim for them...

P.S. I do think: sure they could sell it, but is that data really going to
make up for the dip in their actual business? Nah.

~~~
umvi
How can a company like Intel that was top dog for (at least) 10 years in a row
get slaughtered on two fronts? Seems like they should have billions in the
bank to burn on whatever they need to get back on top.

To me this is like people projecting doom and gloom for Apple after Microsoft
makes better products for 2 years, but maybe I'm missing something.

~~~
rubyn00bie
The landscape that Intel dominated has changed completely and they have not.
They're like Microsoft without Azure, without Office, without Xbox... they
have one meaningful product: CPUs and their GPU is a six-months to a year out
for a v1 which will probably not be very great.

If either Microsoft or Apple had continued to only have one meaningful product
they'd both be shells of who they are now.

~~~
rosybox
Would it be fair to say that Google still only has a single product (with
meaningful revenue)?

~~~
a3n
Yeah, advertising that can hang off infinitely other digital products.

"Y'all keep innovating, we'll be right here when you run out of monetization
ideas."

------
ARandomerDude
It's an opt-in program. I'd be upset if it were mandatory or opt-out. But opt-
in doesn't bother me.

> How do I participate in the Intel® Computing Improvement Program?

>When you download and install the Intel® Computing Improvement Program, click
Accept on the invitation to join.

> What if I don't choose to participate?

> System performance information is not collected or sent to Intel. As a
> result, performance information from your computer cannot be used to improve
> future products.

Usual disclaimers: I don't work for Intel, never have, no plans to, no direct
financial interest in them, etc.

~~~
jammygit
So is that the only way it gets installed? Is the dialogue clear about what
you are agreeing to? Why install that besides to opt in?

------
tcd
No surprise more and more entities want that delicious browsing history data,
it's extremely valuable and profitable.

These days you need to really understand your threat model when it comes to
using the internet and who might be able to record every keystroke and website
you visit.

We used to call them "keyloggers" but now GBoard and Windows 10 have
"clipboard sync" features.

I think there's going to be some genuine business in having scripts make
random web searches, copy/paste random things with the cloud sync feature
enabled etc to trick algorithms and what data can be harvested from what they
collect.

If you poison the data they have on you then what use is it collecting it?
Maybe I just am a raging furry, and adore Adolf Hitler and buy Nazi related
materials.

~~~
annoyingnoob
I tend to agree with you. Though when Intel starts selling your data to the
government you might want to limit those Nazi searches, could impact your
ability to cross the border without a hassle.

------
chooseaname
Make JavaScript run as fast as possible on your chips.

There, now you don't need to collect any data.

~~~
olliej
Yes, but presumably they want to know what type of JS is being run.

The characteristics (memory access, numeric operations, etc) are complex and
simply saying “make all of it fast” isn’t helpful - presumably intel is trying
to make their chips faster at everything in general, but if they find that
there are a few particular bottlenecks maybe they could allocate more
resources/surface area to those particular instructions, etc

~~~
codedokode
Maybe then they can buy a PC and seat an employee that will spend all the day
browsing the web. Instead of spying on everyone.

~~~
olliej
I'm sure that they already do, but how the entire world uses the internet
isn't easily testable by any sane number of testers.

Not saying this is a remotely sane way to do the study, just that's probably
the rationale

~~~
a3n
There's a middle ground. They could require all of their employees to opt
their households in. They have a lot of employees.

If that's not enough, they could also require all their contractors to opt
_their_ households in.

~~~
scarejunba
Incredible. Intel offers a voluntary program that you want to turn into a
mandatory program for employees' families.

~~~
a3n
No, I don't want that. I'm just suggesting a way for them to not have to ask
the world for this data by eating their own dog food, in the context of this
thread, in a consciously unfriendly way.

------
davidhyde
At some point we're going to have to start using our personal firewalls for
outgoing traffic too which is going to be a massive pain. It seems that every
company is jumping on the telemetry band wagon.

~~~
mopsi
> which is going to be a massive pain

Not at all!
[https://tinywall.pados.hu/features.php](https://tinywall.pados.hu/features.php)
(it's free)

~~~
rasz
or [https://www.binisoft.org/wfc.php](https://www.binisoft.org/wfc.php) also
free, been using it since 2016

------
bobwaycott
Let’s assume Intel has the best motivations here, and _really_ wants to ensure
that Intel devices perform better than competitors. There’s a far better way
to accomplish this without invading the privacy of end users and becoming yet
another attack vector (has anyone coined YAAV yet?):

\- Create a program that allows _developers_ and _other companies_ to upload
their code to be stored and executed by Intel to test and store performance
improvements and regressions

\- For those who don’t trust Intel with their code, allow them to register
their site as part of a testing program. Intel can then rank the importance of
these sites internally by popularity or whatever kind of metrics they want.

If developers and companies care, they’ll participate and work with Intel
directly. If they don’t, they won’t. Stop pushing this crap onto users’
machines, building profiles, storing data, and invading everyone’s privacy.

We really need an anti-telemetry law in the US.

~~~
Beltiras
There's an even better way of doing this and they never have to leave the lab.
They have all of the CPUs and enough of the hardware configurations themselves
to actually _run a test_. Just go by some of the "most popular websites" list
that's out there.

------
tomcooks
Don't they already have access to all my infos already, thanks to the Intel
Management Engine? /S

~~~
9dl
Why not collect even more

If it is free

------
neiman
afaik it is a request for opt-in collecting metrics, while still trying to
respect your privacy (as much as possible in this use-case).

I won't do that, but if someone agrees I don't see any ethical issue with it.

Is there anything I'm missing?

~~~
jmull
Well, you're saying metrics and they're saying web browsing data.

You're probably thinking metrics because that's how the program is presented:
as a way to help ensure Intel products and drivers are performing well.

But what does browsing data have to do with that?

E.g. I notice the privacy policy covering this data specifically allows them
to use the data they collect for advertising and allows them to let their
partners use it for advertising as well.

Is that what you were expecting from the Intel CIP?

~~~
neiman
I dunno why they need it and I personally won't share it, but if they ask
honestly, without any manipulation tricks, and people decide to share it, I
don't see an issue. Freedom goes both ways.

~~~
squiggleblaz
But there's manipulation tricks. And they ought to be making a fair offer that
involves paying you a fair rate to be monitored. It should just come
naturally. Otherwise they're using manipulation tricks.

------
raxxorrax
I don't know if I am getting this right, but this seems to be a program that
you can install and they at least ask. So I have not as much a problem with
it.

I wouldn't want them to be able to read my CPU SN though and connect it to any
browsing data. But there sure are people that wouldn't mind.

If I compare this behavior to MS and their telemetry crap, this is a gigantic
improvement. Not saying that collecting usage information should even be
further normalized.

~~~
makomk
From doing a quick Google, it looks like Intel have been sneaking this
software onto people's computers bundled with stuff like drivers, and some
people have been having serious trouble actually uninstalling it:
[https://www.tenforums.com/customization/113108-inquiry-
about...](https://www.tenforums.com/customization/113108-inquiry-about-
removing-hard-find-intel-control-panel-entry.html)

------
fulldecent2
I support Intel's program here.

But clearly they should reword it to be more explicit.

s/categories of websites you visit/

\- Each month, whether you have or have not visited some streaming video
website on this list (click to see list) (i.e. a single "yes" or "no" for the
whole list) \- Each month, whether you have or have not visited some shopping
website from on this list (click to see list) \- ... /

------
danmg
If they care so much about javascript performance why wouldn't they just add
opcodes for js specific behavior like how ARM did?

~~~
9dl
They can't do that wo your data man

Don't you understand?

------
hsivonen
How do they extract the site category data from browsers? What side effects on
browser behavior, if any, does the methodology have?

------
teddyh
They might just want to live up to their name.

------
zamubafoo
Wouldn't it be better for them just to categorize the javascript that is
available in the top million webpages?

------
a3n
Does Honda need to know the categories of addresses I drive to?

Does Pentel need to know the categories of ransom notes that I write?

~~~
justwalt
What types of ransom notes are you writing? Please come with me, sir.

~~~
a3n
Purely intellectual exercises, I assure you. Performance art.

------
BWGB
There's no incentive to give away your data. A large financial incentive would
be nice!

~~~
olliej
But according to the press release you will be empowered by giving them access
to this information :D

------
medbrane
They have this question in the page:

> If I participate in the program, is there any personal information in the
> data collected?

..then they proceed to tell you what they don't collect. You can read between
the lines that yes, they do collect PII.

------
tyingq
Is this tied to installing other Intel software or drivers? The page reads
like you specifically decide to download this solely for the purpose of
helping Intel. Not sure they will get many takers that way.

------
zelphirkalt
After the rather recent let downs (Still waiting for my free of charge
replacement CPU for the ones vulnerable to meltdown and spectre.), just one
more reason not to buy Intel crap.

------
Porthos9K
Intel's CIP is a wannabe NSA spook. The websites I visit should be nobody's
business but my own.

------
z3t4
This seem to be optin and not on by default like other popular software.

------
ForHackernews
This seems to be genuinely opt-in: You have to explicitly sign up for this
program, download and run their software. It's not like they're spying on
unsuspecting chip-buyers.

I wish other companies had a real opt-in process.

~~~
Beltiras
That's how active opt-out starts.

------
ComodoHacker
Data is the new oil, they say. Did someone convinced Intel to prepare for
pivot as a data company? Well, they are in a good position for it actually.

------
jmoore53
For the time being this appears to be an Opt-in program where one has to
choose to participate by downloading and running the CIP program.

------
fnord77
how long until on-chip user tracking?

------
ckastner
I get that data collection has become a contentious issue and I'm a vocal
opponent of this trend, but this seems rather harmless, no?

It's an offer to purely voluntarily provide telemetry on non-personal data, no
strings attached.

~~~
simongr3dal
Surely Intel’s engineers can browse the web themselves to find out what kinds
of websites and JavaScript exists and use that knowledge to optimize their
microcode or whatever.

Or buy a report from one of the hundreds of companies doing this kind of user
tracking.

There’s no great reason why they would need to begin collecting data on each
of their users.

~~~
ckastner
> Surely Intel’s engineers can browse the web themselves to find out what
> kinds of websites and JavaScript exists

They wouldn't have access to the frequency of visits, an important factor.

> There’s no great reason why they would need to begin collecting data on each
> of their users.

I've given you one above.

Also, it's not "each of their users", it's those voluntarily agreeing to
submit this information (as opposed to "you need to install X to unlock
feature Y", and installing an executable.

