
If iPads were meant for kids - nmcfarl
https://davedelong.com/blog/2018/04/06/if-ipads-were-meant-for-kids/
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simonh
I started off sympathetic, but as I got down to the end of the article I found
myself horrified. It's a recipe for indulging the worst tendencies towards
helicopter parenting. Is detailed invasive intrusion and surveillance into the
personal lives of our children really what we want? Do children really deserve
no privacy at all?

How about bringing up children to have a responsible attitude and building
trust? I have exactly the same concerns the author has. I have two children
ages 13 and 14, and they have each had an iPad since they were 6 and 7 thanks
to the generosity of my brother. Our youngest in particular spends more time
on youtube and chat apps than we would like, but I can easily imagine the
damage I would do to our relationship by constantly spying on every single
thing she does on it. Especially as she grows into her teenage years. It
strikes me as lazy and avoiding building trust and responsible attitudes, the
actual things parents should be doing to address such issues.

~~~
intendedeffect
The article writer is has younger children, though. For older children the
ability to set a daily time limit makes sense based on what research I've
seen, and (if you, parent, would like) it could skip the helicoptering and
invasiveness: kid gets x hours per day to do what they'd like, and then they
need to find other things to do. My oldest is only four, so I haven't begun to
think about raising teens yet, and he doesn't get unsupervised time with an
iPad, but I'd love just to have a way to track how much time he actually
spends using screens like that.

~~~
simonh
You can already control what apps children can download using family linked
accounts and really the only problematic app left is the browser, but
personally I found my kids were just not really interested in the web. For the
most part you need to type URLs and search for stuff and it’s all far more
confusing than using apps, so they tended not to use it.

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hannob
This web page is called "Hacker News". I became a hacker because when I was a
kid I did all those things with a computer that I was not meant to do. I
edited the AUTOEXEC.BAT (that's probably a crude analogy to the settings these
days). I tried to understand options about memory management to some of the
commands that probably weren't meant for anyone except for the developers
(with limited success I must say). A lot of things happened during my
childhood that were not good for me. Using a computer in unintended ways
wasn't one of them.

If you want no more hackers in 20 years you should give your kids devices so
locked down they can't do anything.

~~~
fit2rule
You could edit AUTOEXEC.BAT and write your own version.

Kids can't do anything like that, at all, on an iPad. They are so far removed
from anything even approaching productive tools for modifying/creating new
apps on the iPhone, its just not feasible.

Your argument would be fair and valid if in fact there were tools onboard to
write apps for iOS .. just like there was a copy of EDIT.EXE and/or DEBUG.COM
for you to play with on your old PC. But to make things equivalent, you'd have
to have encrypted your old DOS disk and locked it down so it only ran one app,
and there'd be no chance in hell you'd ever get anywhere even remotely close
to GWBASIC.EXE ..

So, no not really equivalent. Yes, kids should be encouraged to hack their
computers. No, iOS does not allow this in any way, whatsoever. The tools of
production have been removed from us.. a technological class system is being
enforced by imperial masters. No compiler for you!

~~~
Boulth
> Yes, kids should be encouraged to hack their computers. No, iOS does not
> allow this in any way, whatsoever. The tools of production have been removed
> from us.. a technological class system is being enforced by imperial
> masters. No compiler for you!

I reached the same conclusion some time ago that smartphones are basically
consumer devices designed to, well, consume content, not create anything. I
still remember dreaming about a portable computer that I could carry with me
when I was a kid but this is not it. Of course you can install termux on
Android and there are some toy interpreters but the entire platform is just
designed for end users, not creators.

~~~
matwood
> not create anything.

Maybe not in a programming sense, but for image and video creation iOS (and I
assume android) has some amazing editing tools.

~~~
jsjohnst
Let’s not forget music too. There’s amazing music production apps on iOS /
Android. On the programming front, I think Swift Playgrounds is fantastic for
younger audiences.

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techman9
I credit much of my current aptitude with (and interest in) computers to
getting to use one throughout my childhood with no restrictions. I understand
it can be nerve-wracking for parents ceding that much control to children, but
I think children are both smarter and more self-disciplined than we give them
credit for and I think digital free range can build independence in the long
run. Maybe my opinion will change when I have kids of my own someday. Who
knows.

~~~
socialist_coder
If you did that with an iPad today, your kid would basically _only_ watch the
most horrendous youtube videos or play brainless games. That stuff just didn't
exist when we were kids, using our just-for-nerds computing devices. The games
weren't as addictive or plentiful, video apps tuning to their "likes" didn't
exist. It's not even remotely similar.

~~~
techman9
I don't know. I grew up in the XP era and I played a lot of brainless games
(3D pinball was where it was at) and read a _lot_ of mindless Wikipedia
articles as a kid. But then I got curious about how it all worked behind the
scenes.

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but my hope is some of that inquisitive spirit
hasn't been totally quashed. It's too depressing think that kids are not still
discovering the internet as a virtually boundless repository of human
information and a fascinating set of technical problems.

~~~
socialist_coder
The difference is that back then, the brainless games were the equivalent of a
box of chocolates. Sure, you might eat a couple but you would probably get
bored before you finish the box. Now, it's like Willy Wonka's Chocolate
Factory. You never want to leave.

So as a child, choosing the productive option yourself is basically
impossible.

~~~
megaman22
I could never get bored with Civilization 2, or Lords of the Realm, or Close
Combat 2, or Age of Empires. And I put a _lot_ of hours in, between 10 and 18.
I'm not sure that Candy Crush is anymore fun than those games were.

~~~
techman9
Oh my god. And Starcraft, and Axis and Allies, (original) DOTA. I was even a
WOW player back in the day before I got fed up buying expansions. Man, the
hours of productive time I wasted...

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cpt1138
This is more like if iPads were meant for parents. Maybe a little bit
overbearing.

~~~
eveningcoffee
Certainly overbearing. Also one failing at parenting and demanding that Apple
should do it for him.

~~~
socialist_coder
He wants these features precisely because he is trying to be a _good_ parent!

Or do you expect him to monitor his children's iPad usage literally every
minute they are using it?

~~~
simonh
I don't expect to monitor my children's iPad usage at all, other than
literally seeing what they do from time to time and talking to them about it.
I have no time at all for this sort of intrusive monitoring of everything
children do every second. I think it's deeply unhealthy and pushes parent
child relationships into confrontational situations, where what we really need
to be doing is building up trust and responsible attitudes. If a parent can't
do that, then no amount of surveillance and intrusion is going to fix the
problem.

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Joeri
This is part of the reason I got my son an entry level windows tablet instead
of an ipad. You have excellent control over what they can access, when and how
long, and weekly summary reports on how they spent their time across apps.

The trouble turns out to be that it is windows with all of the problems of
windows. Unlike iOS updates regularly break things or hang for obscure
reasons. The creator’s update even discarded the entire start screen layout.
Partly the update problems are caused by the 32 gb storage constraint, but I
don’t see why the windows folder needs to take up 16 GB and then complain it
needs another 8. Also, because backgrounded apps don’t get tombstoned the
machine runs out of ram and starts swapping / freezing (emmc is even slower
than spinning rust), unless my son is careful about closing every game when
he’s done with it.

All of which is a long winded way of saying that iOS is not that bad for a
kid’s device. It gets the basics right: don’t break unexpectedly for technical
reasons.

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hshehehjdjdjd
These “I wish my technology would let me avoid having to discipline my child”
articles always bother me. Son sneaking into your room to grab iPad without
permission? Easy solution to that. No iPad for a week. He will learn
eventually not to do it. No settings needed.

The thing is, you don’t want an environment where a child cannot make a
mistake. Sometimes you want to let mistakes be made and use those moments to
teach your child what behavior is correct. Many of the restrictions requested
in this article are in that vein. Although some, like age level restrictions,
make more sense, since it is quite difficult for a child to ascertain whether
a video will be appropriate for them without viewing it.

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BooneJS
We’ve struggled with this. We’re taking the bet that our kids will learn how
to handle this if they have the ability to make wrong choices, and we convince
them to make better choices later If they only know when to stop when they hit
a fence, what are they actually learning about real life?

Not sure how it’ll work out. I’ll report back after High School.

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kar1181
I get where this is coming from - but to be honest the main thing I want to
lock down on my ipad is just not let them fire up youtube. You can't restrict
certain apps from being opened.

Restricted mode works mostly how I want. I have a bunch of suitable games I'm
happy for the kids to play with without me hovering around. But every time I
let them use an ipad I have to remove youtube if it's on there, as they are
only allowed to use that when I'm watching with them.

~~~
jsjohnst
> You can't restrict certain apps from being opened.

Settings |> General |> Restrictions |> Apps

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mattkrea
Seems like a bad idea for kids of any age to be taught they don't need
passcodes or that they are an annoyance.

~~~
Shivetya
I wonder how long face recognition technology would function with children? I
was under the impression that each accepted scan updates the mask so shouldn't
it be able to keep up with changes to a child's face as they age? let alone
serve multiple children so each has their own setup?

education wise tablets need to recognize different users so as to allow device
sharing and keep this budget friendly to schools

~~~
mattkrea
Speaking specifically about Face ID, Apples marketing has suggested that
changes over time would influence the model but I do not believe it is there
yet—-I have seen enough issues in my own usage and the only meaningful
difference there is my glasses.

And you’re very much right about the multiuser requirement. Apple should have
been moving in that direction years ago but unfortunately we only have a bunch
of “family sharing” hacks at the moment.

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eaenki
The fact that your kid is addicted to Angry Bird or spends too much time on
Snapchat if there's no restrictions in place, it's just a deeper problem of
how you've gone about educating your child. Restricting its use to those
applications wont change anything. It's like using duct tape to fix a broken
tire, only worse, because at the same time you're also destroying your
relationship in ways you can't realize (by taking away his freedom and
privacy).

Yeah, he/she must be able to not lose time on its own. Some actionable advice
to start with: if you or your wife are using TV/Social Media - AT ALL - you
can begin there (by giving the example).

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sytelus
Apple simply hasn’t figured out this huge market yet. I bet “iPad as nanny” is
perhaps the top 3 use cases for the device. Amazon however has already
discovered this market and produced customized Android based tablets just for
kids:
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01J94SCAM/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01J94SCAM/)

On side note, it’s terrible idea to give iPad ownership to kids below 13 years
old. Current tablet HID model primarily makes them as consumption device and
most kids are better off with things that allows them to produce instead of
just consume.

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headsoup
Marketing says pretty much anything is for anyone.

Can't really blame marketing for a kid having something you think they
shouldn't.

And, kids don't _need_ iPads. Kids need attentive parents and guidance, then
they can use anything.

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wilwade
So there are many hacker type comments below. And I somewhat agree with them.
My kids use an Ubuntu box where while they are not sudoers they can do what a
user can.

The tablets (android) are different. For one the age can be much younger. My 2
yr old can play with the tablet, but I don't think giving her access to
settings is going to help make her into a hacker. Ability to read makes a big
difference between iPad and computer.

I will also note that giving your kids access to scratch and python is far
more likely to build the next generation of hackers than having access to iOS
settings.

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hoodoof
This is the outcome of lack of competition.

Also, Apple is not enthused about anything that might limit the ways in which
a device is used. The whole point is that everything they do is focused on
finding more and infinite ways to make a device used. Constraining use is
deeply against the DNA of everything they are actually aiming at. There seems
to be a real, deeply ingrained unwillingness to implement things that might
reduce unfettered usage.

Truly this is politics. In politics, you say what people want to hear but do
whatever you want. That's what Apple does - positions the iPad as kid and
family friendly but just does what it wants.

~~~
DanBC
I genuinely can't tell if this is satire or not.

The entire point of the Apple eco-system is that they impose limits.

I'm not saying this is bad! It has strong benefits for many people.

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cma
> If iPads were meant for kids, then I, as a parent, would be able to set a
> parent passcode on a device in order to unlock it, even when the kids have
> forgotten their passcodes for the 17th time, so I don’t have to spend
> another hour or two getting the device in to DFU mode, re-installing the OS,
> and then re-downloading all of the apps they had that have now lost all of
> their local-stored data.

Then a third party who steals or finds the device would be able to get all the
kids user data (but perhaps not the adult's credit card data and passwords).
That would potentially be an issue but I guess would be ok as an option.

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Jedd
I realise this is an Apple-centric (refer "posted in apple" in the footer)
blog post, but there's 21 'ipad' and 0 'tablet' references, so it seems very
much like an anti-Apple dig ... which is fairy nuff, but I suspect the same
claims can be made about almost any _generic_ consumer device these days.

I note that none of these concerns applied to my initial computing devices.

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oflannabhra
He’s right, and there is a simple solution: don’t give your kids an iPad.

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fauigerzigerk
This should be titled "If iPads were made for parents who want tight control
over their kids' digital lives"

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jdmoreira
Replace “iPad” with “8-bit microcomputer” and what is suggested would have
ruined my childhood.

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hyperion2010
If all of these things were implemented I might allow one of these things in
the house. As it stands I'm almost to the point where the only tech I would be
willing to let in the house is a raspberry pi.

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influnza
I am happy the article author is not my parent.

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AzMoo_
Google Family Link gives you almost all of this.

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acqq
You have to create a Google account for the child too.

Additionally:

[https://families.google.com/familylink/privacy/notice/](https://families.google.com/familylink/privacy/notice/)

"As explained in the Privacy Notice for Google Accounts Managed with Family
Link below, Google will not serve personalized ads to your child, but your
child will still see ads while using Google’s services."

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ponderatul
The ipad is meant for everyone... for everyone to get hooked on using it.

