
Standing desk experiment and consequent knee injury - Gargol
http://nazargargol.com/standing-experiment-and-consequent-knee-injury/
======
blunte
Summary: a guy with an undiscovered previous injury aggravated it with a
lifestyle change, and now it's on the front page of HN scaring people away
from living a healthier (less-sitting) lifestyle.

You have one unfortunate story, but I have the opposite positive story. As
usual, it means that people are not all the same - and what works for one
doesn't necessarily work for another.

What's your bodyweight? Are you carrying a bit more weight than is ideal? Did
you have any previous injuries with your legs/knees? (Yes, we know that now.)

I suspect that you weren't snowboarding for a fraction as many hours as you
were standing, so it's not really surprising that one activity hurt and one
didn't.

I spent four years standing 10-16 hours a day - or rather,
standing/shuffling/dancing. Not only did I not develop problems, but my lower
back pains (from sitting) went away. And for the last few years I've been
standing at work and doing pretty heavy weight lifting. I still feel great,
and I'm in my 40s. I hope my story does as much to encourage people as yours
does to discourage them.

~~~
allegory
I think if we take the mid-point between your story and his, we're getting
there.

Everything in moderation.

That means sitting is fine and standing is fine, just not too much excess of
either.

My wife, an ex-carer, knows a number of athletic people who have _very
serious_ problems in their 50s and 60s as they've worn their hips and spine
out. Conversely she knows a number of people with diabetes and heart problems
in the same age range.

The interesting thing I did find out is that those who do not focus on any
particular fitness goal, eat what they need and don't objectively go out and
exercise are perfectly healthy and run rings around the other groups.

A word of caution: all of these people were quite happy with their physical
state into their 40s. The same with drug use, particularly hash etc which
really kills you when you get to your late 30s and early 40s.

A standing desk has little to do with any of the above. Moderation of all
things does.

~~~
kyllo
The problem is that modern life is not geared toward moderation. The way our
economy is structured, most people have to spend their entire day working in
order to make ends meet. And for a lot of people "work" means being tied to a
computer for 8 or more hours. The human body is really not well suited to
doing any one thing for longer than 8 hours at a time, but unfortunately our
lifestyle almost requires it.

~~~
allegory
It most certainly doesn't require it. I think most people are just resigned to
it.

------
VLM
This discussion topic, which never ends here on HN, of "the correct working
position", is pretty silly when properly analogized to "the correct sex
position".

Everyone knows there's only one position that feels the best and it should be
done the same way for your entire life regardless of temporary or permanent
health level or other conditions and the world would be a better place if all
diversity were forcibly stomped out and the one true position was legally
required for all. Because there can only be one correct answer. You know, just
like programming editors. See? Now everyone is happy.

~~~
tbrownaw
Not really. One is something that you (mostly?) do for fun, and for relatively
short periods of time. The other is something that you do by necessity for the
majority of the day nearly every day, which makes it easy to injure yourself
in ways that won't be immediately apparent.

------
swah
In my experience, typing while standing is really good, but watching Youtube
videos (most of what programmer does) felt stupid/tiring.

------
CmonDev
Humans are not designed to stand for 8 hours every day. It's about switching
poses frequently.

~~~
blunte
Humans are not designed to sit in chairs.

~~~
smackfu
Our fatty asses beg to differ.

~~~
blunte
Which came first, the chair or the fatty ass?

~~~
damoncali
does it matter?

------
notacoward
There's a right way and a wrong way to go about something like this. You can't
design a good setup before you even know how standing most of the day feels
for you. Get a good adjustable stand, don't skimp on "accessories" like gel
mats, ease into it, and above all _listen to your body_. If you're
uncomfortable, sit for a while. If you're sitting too much, try standing
differently next time - e.g. monitor/keyboard higher or lower, feet closer or
further apart, shifting weight. Your ideal standing position/habit for work
might not be the one you've been using in other contexts. Maybe standing for
long periods, in a body shaped by long years of not standing longer than
absolutely necessary, just isn't for you. I hope more people realize the
benefits of standing more and sitting less, but even more than that I hope
nobody hurts themselves trying.

------
peterwwillis
Standing in one place all day is the whole reason I never tried standing
desks. It's painful as hell to stand all day. A treadmill desk might not be as
bad, but my knees are generally unhappy whenever they absorb any kind of
impact force. And sitting up/laying back isn't great because it basically
atrophies your muscles from not being used at all for 8 hours a day.

It doesn't make much sense for us to work a set number of hours, anyway, since
most tech jobs aren't repetitive labor, they're projects which can take
anywhere between 15 minutes and two months. I'd rather just work less hours,
have a more dynamic schedule, or just take an hour or two in the middle of the
day to go climb a tree.

------
qwerta
My father-in-law works (and stands) on street market for past 40 years. He is
in similar shape as other man in his age. So I think there is no miracle here,
just some physical work and exercise.

~~~
keithpeter
I'll bet your father-in-law moves about a fair bit on his stall assuming the
market has barrows or stalls. I think the issue might be simply _not moving_
much in whatever stance.

I'm a teacher and in term time in classes (6h a day usually) I'm not sitting
much at all, but then I'm not standing in one place much either. No issues as
yet...

------
hedgew
Try standing on a wobble board[1] while using a standing desk. I don't know if
it's any healthier, but it is more fun, feels more comfortable, and keeps you
moving.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_board#Wobble_boards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_board#Wobble_boards)

------
standup75
Sharing my experience here. I have had a standing desk for over 6 months. I
built it myself and cannot adjust the height, but I am actually really happy
about that. I have a high stool I can sit on whenever I want. I don't know how
much I stand and how much I sit, I just sit whenever I feel like it but stand
for most of the time. I think that's the key. Not having fixed rule but listen
to how you feel and always have the possibility to sit. The fact that I don't
have to adjust my desk makes me more flexible, I can sit for just 10 seconds
sometimes. My legs felt heavy during the first few weeks, but now I feel great
and it gave me a lot of energy. The only drawback is that I have such thick
skin on my heels now that I lost sensitivity there. But heel sensitivity was
not a feature I was really holding on to...

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guilloche
It seems that I am not the only one gotten hurt by standing all day long.

In my case, the knees are fine, the joint between my right thigh and body got
hurt baddly.

So, do not stand a lot, do not sit all day long either.

Do drink water regularly, (kidney stones for sitting programmers) too much
water will cause kidney problems too.

~~~
kennu
Maybe lying on a couch is the safest choice then. :-)

~~~
innguest
That's why I've been waiting forever for a certain one-handed chorded keyboard
called Twiddler. :) (I'm not affiliated with them).

------
DontBeADick
> At this point I decided it was a bad idea to stand all the time and switched
> to 2 week standing/sitting cycles.

Well there's your problem. You should alternate every couple hours, not every
couple _weeks_.

Buy a tall stool or drafting chair so you don't need to move your desk up and
down.

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FollowSteph3
I've tried standing desks a few times and what I've found is that if your
going to work more than regular hours it's a bad idea. That is you should not
stand more than 8 hours a day for 5 days a week. And even then that should be
punctuated by breaks such as lunch, meetings, etc.

The main difference I found say compared toa cashier is that you barely move.
You don't twist side to side and so on. This might seem small but it's
important.

The biggest issue though is that if you're doing a startup with long hours you
need to be very careful. Like everything else overdoing anything is bad.

~~~
HelloMcFly
The recommendation I've seen from others before building my standing desk, and
certainly the pattern I follow, is to alternative sitting and standing. My
desk is set up for a standing situation, but I can undock my laptop and sit at
any time. Some days I stand 65% of the time, some days I stand 10% of the
time.

Mix it up, feel better.

~~~
elwell
[http://www.nextdesks.com/](http://www.nextdesks.com/)

------
whiddershins
I've been downvoted for writing this before, but here goes: exercise for
exercise's sake may not be all it is cracked up to be. For example, standing
for long periods is associated with an increased risk of varicose veins.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1740939/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1740939/)

I know many people believe all their physical ailments are traced to a
sedentary lifestyle, but i don't think prolonged periods of abusing your body
is the answer.

~~~
collyw
Standing is hardly exercise.

~~~
Cthulhu_
It's not as easy as sitting down though. Being on your feet for hours on end
is definitely a skill that needs to be learned (in the military, for example).

~~~
collyw
OK, on that I agree. I bet this is not a skill the OP acquired.

------
chromaton
One suggestion which I got from here on HN is to have some sort of small stool
or object on which to rest one foot at a time while standing. It's much more
comfortable than keeping equal weight on both feet and the reason why there's
a brass rail on the floor in bars.

I use my desk in sitting mode most of the time. Of course, I've been breaking
up my working day with a 45 minute run in the middle, but it's still great to
have the option sometimes to stand.

------
DanBC
I hope that your knee heals.

I'm gently curious about the people trying standing desks: this article
mentions research on the dangers of sitting, but it doesn't mention any
research on standing. Since many people are expected to stand all day at work
I'd have thought there would be some research about standing.

Have people looked at that? How about investigating some of the products meant
to counteract problems caused by standing all day (such as anti-fatigue
matting).

~~~
Gargol
Standing whole day is also not a good thing, that is why I was switching
between the two all the time. Standing position is giving to much stress on
the keens and develops things like atherosclerosis, hip arthritis, varicose
veins...

------
bshimmin
I'm pretty sure chairs were invented for a reason.

~~~
sophacles
So were cigarettes (which were even touted as a healthy thing for a period of
time, and later found to be harmful). The point being: lots of thing are
invented for a reason - but is that reason valid? Does it lead to secondary
effects that outweigh the benefits?

~~~
bshimmin
Are you really comparing chairs to cigarettes? I'm not really sure that
supports your point.

Snark aside, it seems to me that sitting down a lot is perhaps a contributing
part of a lifestyle that probably isn't very healthy (not getting much
exercise, not seeing much sunlight, etc). But it seems far from conclusive
that replacing sitting down with standing up is really much of a solution for
many people.

------
jpbutler
I bought my standing desk this spring. I started out using it almost all the
time, but I was having similar problems after a long time standing.

Now, I use it in sitting mode most of the time, but use it in standing mode
for conference calls. That works out to a nice balance during the day. It’s
one button press and 15 seconds or so to adjust from sitting to standing and
back, so it’s easy to switch.

------
jccodez
I enjoy my sitting time and make up for it with a regular exercise regimen and
lots of after work activities. At one big corp. I have been at, it was like a
competition to see who could stand the longest and who appeared the most
health conscious.

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mrfusion
Has anyone looked into some sort of walking desk? Over a treadmill? It seems
like that would alleviate the problems with standing.

~~~
leni536
Like the one that Linus Torvalds use?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSgUPqygAww](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSgUPqygAww)

