
Ask HN: PhD in the UK or US? - hsikka
Hey HN,<p>I&#x27;m a 2nd year MS student and I&#x27;m looking into applying for PhD programs. I&#x27;ve gotten my dual Master&#x27;s in CS and Biology, and I&#x27;m looking into doing a PhD. I have a very specific idea of what I want to do, focusing on Neuroscience inspired ML architectures, and I&#x27;ve found potential advisors at Oxford and a few US universities. What do you think are the advantages of doing a degree at one or the other?<p>Also, I&#x27;m a US citizen! Went to undergrad in the US and am currently attending a US university for my masters
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yaseer
Your supervisor and the program should be your main criteria, not the country.
Many of my friends have had miserable PhDs if they had the wrong supervisor
for them.

My 2 cents of experience based on Oxford, for what it's worth.

It's a beautiful city and the University still opens doors 10 years later,
when I think it shouldn't matter. The network is also a powerful one, which
you can leverage in your career, if you make the effort.

During exchange programs, I noticed students at Oxford and Cambridge generally
cover more material than their American counterparts, as the undergraduate
degrees are more specialised. The CS departments at both also emphasised
mathematical content over software engineering - I'm not sure where you want
your focus to lie

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simonbarker87
UK, you can be done in 3 years and if the Wellcome Trust are still running
their program getting STEM graduates into Neuroscience you can get about £20k
per year stipend and your fees paid (my wife was in the first year of this
program).

I would say that getting paid to do your PhD and focusing on getting in and
out as quickly as possible should be your focus (I am prepared for the
downvotes, I was 2 years 10 months and started my business at 2.5 years). A
PhD is a tool to entering academia (if you want) or getting a higher degree to
stand out from the crowd in industry (the reason I did mine)/raising money.

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physicsguy
You need to think about funding. Most U.K. funded PhD opportunities will not
be open to you as a US citizen.

Most U.K. PhD funding is now being routed through what are called ‘Doctoral
training centres’ and these generally only have funded places for students
from the U.K. or the EU, unless it’s an industrially funded one in which the
scope of the project will generally be very strictly defined.

Most non-EU students come in on special programmes where their country pays
for the PhD I.e. Chile has a programme called CONICET that a colleague of mine
was funded through.

In all my time in research heavy (look for the “Russell Group”) Universities
I’ve not met a couple of PhD students from the US for that reason.

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CyberFonic
You may also wish to compare the funding situation for the various advisors.
Each country and university has access to different grants and other sources
of funding. You have to keep in mind that doing a PhD is a _full-time_ job.
You won't be able to have a part-time job and do quality research, so unless
you are able to self-fund, the money aspect is critical.

I believe that, in general, PhDs take longer to complete in the USA,
especially with the top universities. And of course, the cost of living varies
with different cities.

When you write "potential advisors", have you actually engaged in
communication with them? Typically principal researchers have a clearly
defined programme, often tied to specific grants, funding contracts. They will
only take on advisees whose proposed work dovetails into their group's work.
In my experience it is very difficult to be accepted when you propose specific
research and it is outside any existing scope.

To better understand the "potential advisors'" situation, I recommend that you
locate recent papers by them, read those papers and compare their current and
recent work with your intended work. When you contact them, you could frame
your proposal to align with their research programme.

I am not a ML expert, so I can only comment generally. I would expect that
post PhD opportunities in industry would be better in the USA. However,
academic opportunities might be more comparable.

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chrisseaton
> the money aspect is critical

Any reputable PhD or DPhil in computer science is fully funded. You don't need
to think about a part-time job or self-funding.

> In my experience it is very difficult to be accepted when you propose
> specific research and it is outside any existing scope.

This is more common in the UK and isn't seen as a problem here.

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j7ake
Yes but fully funded can still span a large range. 20k pounds in UK versus 50k
pounds in Switzerland for example.

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gaius
UK will not only be faster (you concentrate 100% on research with no
extraneous busywork) and you will get to tick the “international experience”
box at the same time.

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raister
So, in short, US _and_ UK will be faster? How come? Now the guy is more lost
than before...

I would choose the _advisor_ regardless of his/her physical presence (whether
at US or UK) and then follow my decision accordingly. I know for a fact that
you want to have a _friend_ on your side for the next 4 years or so.

~~~
gaius
_So, in short, US and UK will be faster?_

A UK PhD takes 3 years, a US typically 6 because it is padded out with running
errands for the prof and other time wasting.

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improbable22
Some of that time-wasting is likely to be teaching, which may or may not be a
useful thing to have on your CV.

But even after that, you will spend longer immersed in research in the US.
Some kinds of thinking take wall-clock time. One other result of this is that
there's a bit more room to change direction half way through, should you need
or want to.

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yodsanklai
Even more important than the country, you should be very careful on choosing
the right advisor and topic.

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clubm8
OP as a US citizen, extending your network outside the USA is probably a good
idea. If you want to stay after, it's easier to immigrate having done your
education there both for legal reasons + simply having a network.

You will possibly never have a chance to study abroad again. If you don't have
a partner or children, I strong consider taking the chance now while you can.

Also as a practical matter it's my understanding there's more work life
balance in a UK PhD, better pay (you won't get rich but less worry about rent
etc) and often subsidized housing.

To be honest if I had to choose between Oxford and a top place like Stanford
or CMU, I'd take the chance OP. I think in an increasingly global word, you
should seize the chance to extend uour network abroad.

And on a practical note, doing weekend trips to Paris or Amsterdam instead of
Santa Cruz or Vermont is preferable IMHO ;)

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mbbutler
The UK will be faster, but that does not mean it will necessarily be better.
What are you goals post-PhD? Are trying to stay in Academia? If so, then the
US is most likely better.

On the average, US PhD students graduate with more, and higher impact,
publications than UK PhD students. The reason for this is that US PhD
graduation is typically contingent upon producing two or three significant
publications in your field. So you might have to stay for six or seven years,
but you will have an established publication record when you leave.

As far as I am aware of, no such publication requirement exists for any UK
university. UK PhD graduation is contingent upon completing a thesis and viva
(defense) but often times the research within the thesis has not yet been
published. There is typically a period after PhD graduation where UK students
then focus on publishing.

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thinkersilver
Echoing what others I've already said, it's your supervisor and topic should
be your main criterion.

Secondly, it depends on what you want to do afterwards whether is a career in
academia or industry. If academia see the first point I made.

If it's industry then I'd stress on the networks the institutions afford you.
OxBridge in the UK and the usual suspects in the US including Stanford.
Remember in industry, the value of the PhD is more in the process rather than
the achievement of the title,

Finally look at the time and monetary cost. It takes less time in the UK (3/4
yrs Vs 5/6) and you obtain the same utility from the title as you do from the
US equivalent if and only if your optimising for industry placement.

Personally I think the right mix for industry is Undergrad in the US, PhD in
the UK; and for academia UK for undergrad and US PhD ( all things being
equal).

I hope this helps.

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Dumblydorr
Talk to grad students of these professors, find a professor who is good to
their students and who you know will match what you need. This is like a boss
on steroids, if they want to they can snip years off your career and fail you
on a whim. Also dont incur debts, it shouldn't be done for a PhD

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vectorEQ
I would opt for the UK because i'm from europe and don't plan on going or
moving to the US, so i think UK would be a more logical choice. I would expect
the PhD process to be equally intensive and hard work, and the end result to
be of equal validity and value. that being said, if for example you have a big
name university wanting to take on your phd project in either and a smaller
name in the other, you might opt to go for the big name because it will look
more fancy on your resume if a person looks at it who is not in-depth in the
field and doesn't know how to compare them apart form knowing some big names.

For you i would suggest taking a look at your future and seeing where and what
you want to do there. if you want to do something in the US i would recommend
following in the US as employers there will probarbly be favorable to US based
universities as obviously some parts will be more tuned to the US market and
academic culture, where the UK will be more tuned to their own environment
there.

I think in the end your own personal input is what makes a phd valuable and
good, as it's your own research project and it's in your hands what quality
you will deliver. it will be judged on correctness and all sorts of things,
but you are the master of your own project and research so it's your own input
which matters most. this will be the same in the UK and the US.

I would go for one based on my future plans and geographic location of those
plans more than 'quality' of the establishment, as it's not a course you will
be following, but your very own hard work which will be the value and object
of the Phd.

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neuronsguy
If you have the option then the country is not your primary concern. The
quality of your PhD experience is 95% determined by the quality of your
supervisor and lab-mates. So you should judge based on that irrespective of
the country. How much attention can they give you, how successful have
previous students been, etc?

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GlenTheMachine
Absolutely right. Go tour your potential lab and take the grad students out
for drinks, without any professors present. Get them to give you the real
story: is the professor sane and emotionally stable? Is the work environment
supportive? How do graduates from the lab do, do they get good jobs and
academic appointments?

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cs_advice
Look at the University of Luxembourg, the best salaries in Europe, good
conditions and it's a good point to travel around Europe for conferences. They
do a lot of biology and CS. The LCSB is focused on parkinson and other stuff.
They have good resources to send you to conferences or courses.

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krn
If you already know what you want to do during your Phd, definitely go to the
UK. You will be done in 3 years, and the quality of universities is world-
class.

Everyone is talking about Oxford and Cambridge, but the best rated Computer
Science department in the UK is actually in St Andrews[1], the third oldest
university in the English-speaking world.

It's more focused on software engineering than theoretical mathematics,
though.

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/education/ng-
interactive/2018/ma...](https://www.theguardian.com/education/ng-
interactive/2018/may/29/university-guide-2019-league-table-for-computer-
science-information)

~~~
beojan
That really depends on the specific ranking you're looking at. In this case,
student satisfaction ratings seem to be a major component, which tends not to
bode well for the quality of the ranking, if you want to know how good an
institution is _academically_.

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jumha
Start with your step after you get your PhD and make your way back. If it's
for the industry, I would stick with the US. which companies are you
targeting? (Google, Microsoft,....) they probably have a preference. Usually
it's only companies with R&D that would higher PhDs. If it's academia, it's
also important to pick a top tier school. Schools usually hire from the same
tier or higher. pay close attention to this on.... Overall if you're looking
for employment in the US, stick with the US. Americans we don't know much
about the rest of world's universities.

~~~
jumha
Many comments focus on the duration, but this is not really the criterian. I
would even extend my study until I secure the job I want. I did my PhD in the
US, quit the industry after 20 years of working in the industry & switched to
the academia.

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JoshCalbet
I'd say look for good funding and someone who is willing to provide plenty of
freedom on your research program (the ones who people say they are always busy
are good candidates for advisors) make sure that this person is well connected
and can get you some contact to help whenever you are stuck.

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amriksohata
Both are great but for me, UK, just for the diverse people experience which
IMO opens your whole education sphere.

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greenyoda
It might help to know which country you're a citizen of. For example, having
to deal with visa issues or adjusting to an unfamiliar culture could be a
distraction from your PhD work. Also, trying to finish up a PhD while
interviewing for jobs in a different country might be stressful.

~~~
hsikka
Ah of course, I'm a US citizen! I went to UCSD for undergrad, and am attending
Harvard and Georgia Tech for my master's

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CyberFonic
You posted this clarification while I was writing my response.

Based on the additional information, I would suggest that a USA PhD research
op would present more advantages.

Notwithstanding that, if you are attracted to the adventure of studying at
Oxford and are able to secure a well-funded research position then it could be
a fantastic experience.

~~~
hsikka
My apologies, and thank you, your advice makes a lot of sense!

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soVeryTired
The Gatsby group at UCL might be up your alley too. But wherever you sign up,
make sure you know exactly what your supervisor is like and what their
management style is. Some are very hands off, and you need to make sure you're
ok with that.

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sjg007
UK will be faster. US if you get into Stanford or another big name school.

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raister
Sorry but you cannot compare quality over time, even for a big name school.
PhD students will _have_ to work to earn the degree, no matter what.

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BeetleB
>PhD students will have to work to earn the degree, no matter what.

And they will have to work _more_ in the US for the same degree. It's just a
reality.

When I was in grad school, many advisors simply assumed an average of 5 years
for a PhD (regardless of whether they had an MS degree). If a particular
student was quite a bit more productive than the average, they would let them
graduate in 3 years (after MS). Otherwise, it would be 5. 7 if they felt the
candidate was slow in producing results.

In engineering, I've literally seen students do projects beyond their main
thesis because the advisor felt they hadn't done enough and needed to stay
longer. They did add the extra work to their thesis, but it had nothing to do
with their thesis topic!

I don't know the current state in the UK, but when I was in grad school,
someone I know in the UK said it was straightforward there. They give you 3
years of funding after MS, and no more. Period. You are expected to finish in
those 3 years. If you don't, you lose access to facilities unless you pay out
of pocket. The typical student in the UK simply cannot afford to pay, so the
system shifts towards being done in 3 years.

(They also don't take as many courses as they do in the US - perhaps no course
is even required - it's pure research).

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ykevinator
If Oxford then UK, otherwise I would look for a us university that has the
been awarded the specific nih or nsf funding that related to what you are
studying. A PI would be thrilled to find you.

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bradhoffman
Kind of curious about your position as I am in the same boat. Have you done
any research while in your Master’s? If so, what sort of topics have you
written about?

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IshKebab
If you can do it at Oxford I would definitely say do it there. It'll be
faster, you get to experience in the UK, and Oxford is a really nice city and
university.

~~~
ptrott2017
In general think about:

1\. Subject/Supervisor 2\. Location and acceptance in your target industry 3\.
Time for completion. 4\. Cost and funding.

1\. Supervisor relationships can make a massive difference in a PhD. You will
work ridiculously hard either way - but a good supervisor will make it feel
like worthwhile while doing it. A bad one will make it feel like hell while
doing it. Checkout other postgrads and post doctorates who have worked with
the supervisor you are considering. What is the quality of the papers? How
often did they publish? How long did ti take them to complete? Contact then
and ask them about their experiences.

2\. Oxford is a worldwide known university it will open doors, has a fantastic
network and will not be a barrier to future US/international work. (This
cannot be said about other good UK universities that are not as well known
internationally). For the US - Places like Stanford, Princeton, Berkley and
Caltech (+ other) are similar - they open doors and have ready-made networks
that can help. When looking for a place look for the ecosystem - industrial
and academic - to see which can support both your research and possibly your
post-doctorate career.

3\. Time for completion will be massively dependent on the area that you do
and pressure/support to publish from your supervisor. In general a UK PhD may
be a more condensed experience if fully funded and fully focused but that is
but not always the case - it depends on how your PhD is financed and
structured (also dependent on supervisor).

4\. Economic stress is a big component of people not completing PhDs. Spend
time working out all costs (cost of course, cost of living in possible
location of your candidate universities) and what financing/funding is
available. Even if the PhD research position is funded - it may not cover the
costs of living in a specific location.

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DoreenMichele
I recall reading some article about someone who got into a pickle financially
in part because they went to school overseas, so their American student loans
were due while they were in college overseas because being in college
elsewhere somehow didn't count for deferring payment or something.

Make sure you understand that angle. Find out before you go overseas whether
or not that has material impact on your student loan situation, assuming you
have student loans.

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sjg007
That's weird because you can use US student loans to fund education in the
UK..

~~~
DoreenMichele
It might be that some institutions are in the US system and some aren't. I
don't know.

