
Turnover Hits Apple’s Famed Industrial Design Team - mudil
https://www.wsj.com/articles/turnover-hits-apples-famed-industrial-design-team-11556225563
======
atonse
I suppose anyone leaving Apple's ID team (especially Jony Ive's inner circle)
would get the equivalent of Jony Ive's job at any number of companies around
the world. And companies would be happy to have that calibre of talent on
board.

Some of it might be better career prospects, and some of it might really be
"I've been at the pinnacle of my profession, I think I'm done"

~~~
Waterluvian
Or something as human as, "I'm tired of designing laptops, phones, and
peripherals. I want to try designing something very different for a while."

Life is fleeting. Go start new careers every 5-10 years if you have the luxury
of that option. You decide what "career" means. Maybe you go become a stand up
comedian. Maybe you just go program something different than you have been.

~~~
kilroy123
That's what I'm going to try to do. After being paid to code for over 10
years, I simply don't want to do it anymore.

I'm going to start an aerospace company and try something radically different.

I'm single, I have no kids, and don't own a home. Why not? You know?

~~~
grigjd3
I mean, know what you're walking into, but if you have that, then yeah. My
family makes me risk averse. No complaints. Happy as is, you can chase after
whatever, as long as you're vaguely relevant in the field.

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Despegar
This might be the only video of most if not all of the ID team at Apple [1].
I've been following Apple since I was 16 or 17 and I think in that time
they've been pretty anonymous in the Apple story. Found a photo of them [2].

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEW4D_CERkE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEW4D_CERkE)

[2] [https://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-
content/uploads/2014/09/Apple_I...](https://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-
content/uploads/2014/09/Apple_Industrial_Design_team_2014-780x575.jpg)

------
kraig911
I personally think right now that industrial design, architecture and still
fashion have a lot of catching up to do when it comes to designing great
things with regards to technology. Gone are the days where you can be
concerned with the physical looks of a thing. I've met designers who can do
everything just that the upper management team(s) don't get it.

If we can get these super thin laptop designs why can't we create new form
factors? It's purely because people are afraid right now to create new product
segments or try new things.

I imagine a lot of these designers are leaving because they're trying really
hard but keep making things that never see the light of day.

~~~
DonHopkins
Ted Selker at IBM Almaden Research had an amazingly successful streak of
getting useful innovations from the lab to the market with the ThinkPad,
including the TrackPoint (the red joy button), the butterfly keyboard, and the
transparent LCD display with removable back cover that works with an overhead
projector (at a time when overhead projectors were much more common that
expensive video projectors).

IBM Pointing Stick #1 - 10_25_91:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6guBllqPPY&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6guBllqPPY&feature=youtu.be&t=26s)

(Not Edwin Selker!)

Ted Selker Oral History:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpw7Bml_XvI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpw7Bml_XvI)

>He worked for short times at Atari and Xerox PARC before joining IBM in 1985.
At IBM, first at T.J. Watson Labs, then at Almaden research labs, he rose to
Fellow, inventing the TrackPoint cursor control device, making major
contributions to the ThinkPad notebook computer, designing artificial-
intelligence help and teaching systems, designing wearable computing devices,
researching eye tracking systems, and designing an intelligent "living room of
the future".

(Check out his red TrackPoint lapel pin!)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ThinkPad_760](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ThinkPad_760)

>IBM ThinkPad 760CDV - Similar to the 760CD, this unique model had a removable
back cover on the LCD that would permit light to shine through for use on an
overhead projector.

IBM ThinkPad 701c "butterfly" keyboard:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLj3aCfqzOM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLj3aCfqzOM)

Opening and closing IBM ThinkPad 701c with unique keyboard folding mechanism.

ThinkPad TrackPoints - how do they work?

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3A7LDyizlc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3A7LDyizlc)

Early TrackPoint prototypes:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4Ss6F1qIHU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4Ss6F1qIHU)

~~~
joezydeco
I had a 760CDV. That was an amazing machine in an era where you had to carry
projector panels around. It never failed to amaze onlookers.

~~~
Dreami
That sounds really interesting. You don't happen to have any pictures of it? I
didn't find anything through Google, just that it existed.

~~~
jodrellblank
there are pictures of the 755CDV doing that, if that's of any interest:

[http://www.lenovoblog.cz/wp-
content/uploads/2016/02/3566815....](http://www.lenovoblog.cz/wp-
content/uploads/2016/02/3566815.jpg)

[http://www.lenovoblog.cz/wp-
content/uploads/2016/02/755cdv.j...](http://www.lenovoblog.cz/wp-
content/uploads/2016/02/755cdv.jpg)

[http://www.lenovoblog.cz/wp-
content/uploads/2016/02/thinkpad...](http://www.lenovoblog.cz/wp-
content/uploads/2016/02/thinkpad-701c-pml-800.jpg)

(from [http://www.lenovoblog.cz/2016/02/historie-rodiny-
notebooku-i...](http://www.lenovoblog.cz/2016/02/historie-rodiny-notebooku-
ibmlenovo-thinkpad-1993-1995.html) )

[https://thinkwiki.de/755](https://thinkwiki.de/755)

~~~
joezydeco
Yeah those pictures show it very well. The only thing you don't really see is
the existential dread as you hook your expensive laptop to the projector in an
inbalanced fashion using velcro straps....

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itsdrewmiller
Do these three people have 45 years combined experience on the industrial
design team, or do you get promoted into that team after substantial
experience on other teams at Apple? That could be the difference between a
dramatic loss of institutional knowledge and ho hum normal turnover (12%
annually).

~~~
Despegar
From the New Yorker profile of Jony Ive a few years ago:

>Apple employs three recruiters whose sole task is to identify designers to
join the group; they find perhaps one a year.

[https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/23/shape-
things-c...](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/23/shape-things-come)

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jseliger
I wonder if any of them were involved in the Macbook Pro keyboard.

~~~
barbecue_sauce
Do you think the industrial designers were actually involved in the
engineering of the keyboard (the source of the issues) or just the aesthetics
(which look fine)?

~~~
sgustard
Given that the old keyboard worked fine, and the only reason we have a new one
is to shave a few millimeters, then yes I believe the designers are most
directly responsible. Plus ID would tell you their role is much more than
"aesthetics."

~~~
ImprovedSilence
Maybe I'm an outlier, but I actually really like the feel of the new mbp
keyboard, and going back to the old keyboard feels like i just stepped back in
time and my ipod has a wheel on it again... This opinion subject to change if
keys stop working.

I would, however, give up some thinness for better battery life, that's for
sure...

~~~
skavi
I use a mechanical keyboard (blue) on desktop, and previously used a
relatively thick Lenovo laptop. If my 2018 MBP wasn't constantly double typing
'e', I'd rank it right up there with them in terms of feel. It's shallow, but
very crisp, with just the right activation force.

Though, if Apple couldn't fix its issues in three generations, it may be time
for them to move on.

~~~
village-idiot
I still own a 2012 MacBook Air. While the old keys have a hell of a lot of
depth, they’re also much more vague and “mushy”. I too prefer the new
keyboard, although I wouldn’t rank them anywhere near an actual mechanical
switch.

My main fear with the new switches is the durability, but since my only new
MacBooks are company machines, I won’t pay should some dust disable a key.

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wpdev_63
Hopefully it's the people who thought the macbook pro keyboard was a good
idea...

~~~
riffraff
that's just a natural step in the "thinness is the top priority in a laptop or
phone" direction they have been following for years, I'm afraid.

------
bredren
I don’t think Apple leadership is concerned about being the world’s most
valuable company in any given quarter or any given year.

This article alludes to a tie between design team departures and declines in
sales growth.

Apple did not get big chasing quarterly profit numbers, it got big releasing
game changing products and product improvements at the right time.

While this design group deserves strong regard, building AR glasses and
software interface to control them is not something that a dozen people solely
define, it comes from trial and error and enlightened engineers building and
offering alternative ideas based on what only they could know is achievable in
windows of potential release.

In fact, over the air updates, which was one of the most amazing
accomplishments and features of iOS has little design at all. It’s just smart
engineering that works well.

So I do not see these departures as a threat to glasses or autonomous systems
because the prestige of the company combined with its quality of “taste” as
jobs put it means it is not going wayward because three people leave.

~~~
nikofeyn
> Apple did not get big chasing quarterly profit numbers, it got big releasing
> game changing products and product improvements at the right time.

they released those products over a decade ago. they got big because they took
the momentum from those innovations and turned them into a lifestyle, creating
“upgrade” fever and everything else that came with that. in the meantime, they
became an industry bully, pressuring suppliers and vendors for more and more
discounts while pressuring consumers to pay more and more for moderate
iterations of their products.

------
mullingitover
Are these people being pushed out over the keyboard fiasco, or is no one in
the company being held accountable for that disaster?

------
hyko
I like the MacBook Pro butterfly keyboard.

~~~
karmelapple
I did, too... until it failed for one of my teammates and myself. It’s a
pretty awful feeling to have spent money on what’s considered the best-in-
class laptop only to have the keyboard - something that’s never failed on any
iBook or MacBook I’ve owned in over 15 years - have really weird error modes.

They need to fix this.

~~~
chrizel
Me too. I like the keyboard and the feeling. But after 1.5 years now I get
stuck keys from time to time, and this is just bad for a computer of this
price range. It is good if you do not have any problems, but sooner or later
everyone will get problems - it is a ticking bomb.

------
xenihn
I wonder how many are going to Juul. They already have the guy who was in
charge of the iPod.

~~~
therein
What has changed in the design really? I keep getting the most recent
generation as they don't have a long lifetime and they are good with warranty
replacements. All I can tell is the material is a bit darker and the corners
are more beveled.

~~~
xenihn
I don't know but he's been there since the beginning.

------
petilon
Apple's industrial design team was great when Steve Jobs was alive. After his
passing the team hasn't produced anything good. Take Homepod for example. It
is an amorphous blob. Google Home has a better industrial design, and so does
every single Bose speaker. Apple's industrial design team is coasting on the
reputation built during the Jobs years; their current work is crap.

~~~
village-idiot
As someone who’s wearing an Apple Watch and listening to AirPods, I’m inclined
to disagree that Apple’s ID is resting on their laurels.

~~~
tomduncalf
Agreed. Just picked up my first Watch (S4) and it’s probably the most
successfully “Apple-y” Apple product I’ve used for a long time (meant as a
compliment!). Beautifully designed hardware and the combination of thoughtful
software and hardware design has created a device that enhances your day to
day life with useful functionality and keeps an eye on your fitness without
being intrusive, annoying or addictive. I like it much more than I expected
to.

I also think iPhone X and the new iPad Pro are fantastic pieces of design. As
someone who used the iPad for music software, I really wish they hadn’t got
rid of the headphone socket, but otherwise it’s a very well designed device.

