
Show HN: Buttermilk Supply – knives from Japanese masters - buttermilk
http://www.buttermilksupply.com/
======
buttermilk
I know e-commerce might not get a ton of love here, but I'd really appreciate
any feedback you might have for me. I've been a fine-dining chef for years and
recently left my restaurant to build a business around my love of Japanese
knives. I've been working on the site slowly over four months. I think it's
good, but I'd happily accept anything you can say about it. Thank you!

~~~
vehementi
Just some shitty comments:

I clicked two knife categories and both said "This has no western equivalent!"
True or false I am getting some twinges of "wowee, so foreign, must be
amazing, ancient secrets that somehow never crossed the ocean are here at
last."

Similarly I am unconvinced that we need specific knife forging masters whose
fathers were knife forging masters to forge these knives. Do they have magical
techniques that nobody else knows? Do you have to do it for 100 years to be
able to make a good knife, or is the bar in fact lower?

Your "why carbon steel?" page seems to indicate that carbon steel knives are
better than stainless steel in all ways. Is that really true? Another poster
here seemed to summarize that the carbon steel ones need more frequent
sharpening (i.e. stay sharp less long, contrary to what you said).

~~~
jarcane
The shape and design of Japanese knives is indeed quite different in use than
the typical western chef's knife. It takes a little adjustment, but personally
I do prefer a good santoku blade when I can get one, unless I'm doing
something that needs the extra length.

The thing about Japanese knife making is that they're just about the only ones
left doing it that way, and there _are_ advantages to hand-forged steel. You
can't get the same results from machine stamping, and yeah, centuries of
experience is not to be sneezed at in any profession. You'd be surprised how
much of the working knowledge of a whole range of fields dates back to the
middle ages. One of the holy grails of Western smithing books came out in the
time of woodcuts.

Using high carbon steel increases the tensile strength and hardness of the
blade. It's true that crafted Japanese knives do require more regular care and
maintenance, but the durability in the long term if properly treated is
dramatically greater than stamped stainless knives. There are sushi chefs in
Japan using 100+ year old knives.

I was a cook professionally for many years, and I've tried a whole range of
knives from the lowest to the highest end, and no knife I have ever used has
been as pleasant to work with as a good Japanese forged knife. I'd still buy
one in a heartbeat if I could both spare the cash and justify it for simple
home use.

~~~
vehementi
> centuries of experience is not to be sneezed at in any profession. You'd be
> surprised how much of the working knowledge of a whole range of fields dates
> back to the middle ages. One of the holy grails of Western smithing books
> came out in the time of woodcuts.

I totally agree, it's just that, are zero people in the US good enough to make
these knives? Does it require such expertise that if your father wasn't a
knife forging expert, it's inconceivable that you could otherwise learn or be
taught how to do this to make a good enough knife? Why can't I (say, a decent
smith in the US) read a book on this technique, do it for a couple of years
and churn out the same quality knives? I'm sure the 100 year old Japanese
artisan smiths of Lothlorien make more subtly elegant knives, but a chef, or
at least the general market of in-the-know chefs who want a strongass knife,
should not care about that to the point of needing to import them from Japan.

~~~
buttermilk
Again, what @jarcane said.

There are more than zero people in the US making great kitchen knives. The
number is, fortunately, growing. I'm in talks with two US makers and a
Canadian, in addition to a couple from Europe.

As has already been said, it is a matter of economics and culture. High-end
American makers are able to consistently get more money from outdoor knives.
Not to discredit that category of knives, but rough outdoor knives can be made
much more easily and emphasize toughness and wear resistance and aesthetics at
the upper end, with subtle elements of cutting performance being difficult to
evaluate. We have a long history of sought-after outdoor and pocket knives in
the US. For this, Japanese knifemakers turn to the US and studied with people
like Bob Loveless.

Despite outdoor and pocket knives being cherished, the orientation to kitchen
knives in the US has long been held as utilitarian. My guess as to why?
Because kitchen knives were tools for women, and chefs (a class of people long
thought of as outcasts) bought from Europe when they cared. The client base of
most all custom or upgraded or modified consumable
tools/vehicles/electronics/etc. is male dominated. We don't have a strong
history of swordmaking and we readily abandoned them in favor of guns. Guns
not being a significant part of Japan's industrial history, the Japanese
continued their craft of swords until public carry was outlawed. A lot of
these multi-generational swordmaking families found a market in making kitchen
knives.

I would totally support you in learning knifemaking. I think it's an awesome
craft. Reading about how to make high-performing kitchen knives though, might
first require learning to read Japanese. Great kitchen knives can be made
within your first few years, but it's rare, and at the end your knives will be
more expensive than their Japanese counterparts.

Chefs don't need to import knives from Japan, they can get them all over the
US. Sure we want a strong knife in our restaurant kitchens, but it's a tool
that we're attached to for 16 hours a day. It's an extension of who we are as
chefs, and you can tell a lot about one based on their knives. I demanded
finesse from my cooks, and it's hard to understand finesse with a hamhanded
tool.

------
rtpg
So much of this copy seems to be "other knives suck" rather than "our knives
are cool". Why would I ever want to go through the purchase process if I'm on
the fence and see this?

Also, just personal but I don't think "Buttermilk Supply" is a super name for
a knife vendor, but naming is tricky. The wording is a major turnoff for me

~~~
GBond
I agree. Target should be foodie/ home chef types who are willing to invest in
the best. "Our knives are cool" is a better message for them.

~~~
buttermilk
That, along with pros, certainly is my target. That's the message that I hope
to make clear. Do you have any specific copy that stands out as not saying
this?

------
NamTaf
It's worth you doing a pass across your product descriptions. Randomly
clicking on one, I found this statement [1]:

"You can read more about Shigehiro knives under the tab to the left."

Except that there's no tab to the left; the tab you refer to is actually
across the top of the page. Also, it took me 3 or so attempts to find which
tab you meant specifically.

People are paying hundreds of dollars for a knife. They expect the experience
to be flawless, not just the product shipped to them.

[1]: [http://www.buttermilksupply.com/shop/knives/shigehiro-
kasumi...](http://www.buttermilksupply.com/shop/knives/shigehiro-kasumi-
santoku-180mm/)

------
veidr
> "WE DON'T SELL BULLSHIT. EVER."

I am sure some people will object to that being on the front page, but it gave
me a great feeling as a potential customer. And, being that such blunt
language is pretty rare on a customer-facing landing page, it immediately
created some memorability that wouldn't have been there otherwise. (Somewhat
the same as if I had said out loud, "Buttermilk Supply. Buttermilk Supply.")

I advise that you keep it, even though many will inevitably advise you that it
seems unprofessional.

As a dilettante home cook with a somewhat deficient ratio of financial
responsibility to disposable income, I find myself buying fairly high-end
kitchen knives online often. I just like using them, even though my 'cooking'
really mostly amounts to slicing tomatoes and cucumbers to eat with (Ajinomoto
MSG-coated) salt.

That may not be what you are going for in terms of your customer base, but if
it is, I would additionally recommend solving the sharpening problem, and the
cleaning problem, really well.

I never graduated beyond stuff like the Shun knives commonly available on
Amazon, and those things were a big reason why. (Shun offers easy mail-in
sharpening.)

Sell the knives with a cardboard return shipping box for sharpening, and then
send them back with a shipping box that can be re-used the next time.

And if you want to get fancy, include a simple knife cleaning tool. I
historically would never consider buying any kitchen item that can't go in the
dishwasher -- except a knife, because I like the idea of a blade so sharp that
detergents will damage the molecular structure of the super-fine edge.

Still, I confess to saying "fuck it" on many occasions and putting my $150
Shun santoku or paring knives in the dishwasher. That is because I sometimes
find myself looking at a gross dishpan full of dirty dishes in brackish water,
and the sponge is somewhere in the bottom... I just don't always feel like
sticking my hand in there.

I finally curbed that habit by crafting my own knife cleaning tool from a
nylon-brush dishwashing brush and a folded-over sponge, that I keep separate
from the normal dish washing gear. It is janky, but you could actually make
something along those lines pretty cool and very cheap, and then include/sell
that. And the cleaning tool itself would be something you could throw in the
dishwasher whenever needed.

Good luck! I will remember your site on my next birthday.

~~~
mikekchar
As far as I know there is only one solution to the knife sharpening problem:
you have to sharpen it yourself. Carbon steel knives sharpen really easily.
Buy a sharpening stone. While it takes practice to do it well, it is not
exactly rocket science. I'm sure there are more than a few good videos on the
internet. Many people also sharpen with sand paper.

Carbon steel is completely different than stainless steel which is very
difficult to sharpen well. That is the entire point of buying a good carbon
steel knife. If you send your knife in to the shop to be sharpened, it will
basically be dull (or in transit) all of the time.

Also, get in the habit of cleaning your knife and putting it away immediately.
I put my knife away at least 20 times when I'm cooking. Never leave it wet --
ever. Keep a towel available. Again, this is the price of a good knife.

~~~
Intermernet
Wow. Thankyou for making me think of my knives like I think of my climbing
harness, or skis. I will never leave my knife wet for longer than 10 seconds
again. I just went from "Clean every time you cook" to "Clean every time you
use".

~~~
jarcane
For the sushi chefs I knew, a towel by the cutting board was absolutely
mandatory. The chefs wiped their knives after every roll or cutting task, and
they were always sharpened every night with a stone like the ones sold on
Buttermilk.

~~~
mikekchar
Absolutely. One thing I forgot to mention is that most chefs have 2 knives
because they find that after you sharpen the knife it leaves a bit of flavour
when cutting for 24 hours. So the idea is to sharpen it at the end of the
evening and then use the other knife the next day. Personally, I have never
noticed it in my cooking but that's probably because I'm not that good.

------
somberi
I am no knife expert but these knives look lovely.

If anyone is interested in Knifes, here is a fascinating article from New
Yorker (2008):

[http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/11/24/sharper](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/11/24/sharper)

I got one of the Japanese knives gifted to me. I think it is in the same price
range as your lineup.

I use a Kyocera Ceramic knife for about 10 years and they have a free
sharpening service (which I used once). It has been chopping like a champ.

What I found stunning was the metal knife was lighter (in a very good way)
than the ceramic knife. I am a vegetarian and hence ceramic works better (no
metallic tang), but I understand you buy lovely knives as the ones you carry
for its epicurean value as much as its utilitarian value.

Of all the formats of knives I have, I use the Santoku the most. It hits the
sweet spot between a paring knife and Chef's knife.

All the best.

------
ddellacosta
(In the Knives 101 section, first place I went for and first place I expect
other folks may go to:) Wow, this is really offputting:

 _They feed you bullshit in culinary school, bullshit on tv. Here are some
knives to not buy:_

...<snip>...

 _There are many reasons to avoid these knives. I will not go into all of them
here as I believe it would only be fair to address them individually, which
seems really boring._

At least some portion of this advice is misguided--I have a Global bread knife
that has done me no wrong, is comfortable and has stayed sharp a long time,
and I've bought plenty of good knives at "not a knife store" (ironically, a
few in Japan including a nice Misono de-boning knife).

But the bigger issue I have with it is that it is dismissive and reads like a
hipster sneering at us common folks..."Oh, you have a Shun...? Well, I use a
Japanese Gyuto...you probably haven't heard of it." At least show me the
respect of not insulting my intelligence and justify why you think we should
avoid the things you list. Otherwise you should just omit this section.

Because I can tell you, as someone who likes to cook as an amateur and would
like to learn more about Japanese knives, I am exactly in your target market
(assuming you aren't actually a douchebag hipster who doesn't want to sell to
anyone who has transgressed by violating your verboten list before in their
lives), and I can tell you that you would do a lot better to change your tone
here and simply start with the positives, explaining why I should care about
Japanese knives at all and why I should buy them from you. Frankly, no one
likes to be insulted implicitly or otherwise as their first exposure to a
subject, and it is especially damaging if you are trying to sell something.

(More specifically, I would start with the "Styles and Shapes" section, as
that has the most actionable advice--tells me right away what a suggested
"starter set" would be, and then goes into the functions of the different
types in perfect detail--not too much, not too little. I care less about the
details of the materials used, although I still think that is useful
information. And if you _are_ insistent on keeping a "what not to buy
section," you'd do far better by leading with themes and then giving examples,
something like "Mass-produced, stamped knives are bad for reason X...some
examples of these are A, B and C, although the D line from B is not too
bad..."

Another tip--I clicked on the "learn more" link on the top page hero expecting
to get information about knives, not to be dropped into the page of knives
with no information--I would suggest linking that to the "Knives 101," and
further more I think you would do well to link to some good product examples
directly from your "Knives 101" page, so I can immediately read through your
suggestions and pick some good knives to go with. You may even want to offer
some "starter sets," like a Gyuto with a Funayuki as a package together...but
I know you think sets are bullshit, so... ;-)

EDIT: And in general I would say to highlight the "Knives 101" page--it
strikes me from reading some of the other responses in this thread that
dropping people into the knife selection with little guidance to go on is
causing confusion. You could probably kill it if you help guide us ignorant
foreigners through buying a Japanese knife--seriously, I really think this
could really take off with the right approach.

~~~
buttermilk
Hi! I really appreciate your response!

I feel bad about the leading section of that article. A few others commented
on this as well, and I quickly realized it was misguided. I am re-working that
section, and page as a whole. I want to clarify that I in no way meant offense
or shame or to express elitism (or hipster bullshit). The Global bread knife
is totally worthwhile and an exception to my feeling on the rest of their
line. Globals are, if they work for the user, acceptable knives but twice the
price of their value. Thank you for the feedback. My apologies.

Building a better landing page for the video button is high on my to-do list.
You're totally right about that. When you clicked that button, what
information would you have liked to see? Information on our selection of
makers and knives? Knives separated by maker?

I'm not opposed to sets as a whole, I'm opposed to pre-determined manufacturer
sets. I guess I should say box sets? Would you theoretically be more
interested in two knives that I've paired as a set than you would be in
selecting those two knives individually?

Thanks for the kind words. I've had a hard time determining appropriate places
to insert broadly educational info like Knives 101. I don't want people to get
stuck on text walls and give up, but I certainly see how it would be helpful
to have pieces be a part of your path through the shop. Any suggestions as to
placement?

~~~
ddellacosta
Hey, you don't have to apologize to me, I was just transmitting my feeling as
a potential customer reading the page...I actually assumed that the feeling I
got from that page was _not_ what you intended to express--so no worries! On
the contrary, sorry if my criticism was too strongly worded, and kudos to you
for taking it so graciously.

 _Building a better landing page for the video button is high on my to-do
list. You 're totally right about that. When you clicked that button, what
information would you have liked to see?_

Good question. Generally speaking I was interested in learning more about the
knives. Seeing the animated blacksmith I wasn't sure if I would get a video or
not...not sure if others had that impression as well. Specifically though, I
was expecting either a video about knives (not saying this is good, would
prefer not to have a video actually) or a page _like_ the "Knives 101" page--
something to guide me a bit as to 1) why I want Japanese knives vs. (or in
addition) to anything else, and 2) which ones in particular I may be
interested in.

 _Would you theoretically be more interested in two knives that I 've paired
as a set than you would be in selecting those two knives individually?_

Well, my main point in suggesting the knives as a set is that overall, I don't
have a great sense of what to look for in Japanese knives--do I want a Gyuto
only? Gyuto + Santoku? Etc. And your suggestions in the "Styles..." section in
the "Knives 101" page were really awesome--I would love to immediately be able
to say, "okay, they are suggesting a A and a B knife, and these two are in the
low/mid/high-range and that's what I'm willing to pay, so let me directly
click on this and they are both added to my shopping cart and here's my credit
card thank you very much." That is, I think you could potentially sell the
shit out of these simply by making it easy for people to understand what a
good single choice and a good pair and a good threesome is and to add to their
cart directly from the "Knives 101" page (or a page like it...maybe a
better/alternate way is to have some kind of guidance directly on the knives
product listing itself? "Looking for a general use knife? Try this Santoku for
a mid-range option, or this higher-end version, and pair it with..." etc.)

 _I don 't want people to get stuck on text walls and give up, but I certainly
see how it would be helpful to have pieces be a part of your path through the
shop. Any suggestions as to placement?_

Yeah, that's a fair point...I don't have a great sense of that. My instinct
here is to do some testing/experimenting--see how some kind of guidance on the
knife listing itself works, see what kind of results you get when you let
people directly add knives to the shopping cart from the "Knives 101" page,
etc. Maybe you have a separate "Start Here" page that simply gives people some
examples of good options in various ranges and a way to add them directly to
their cart. It's worth assuming that there are people like me who go right to
the "Knives 101" page to learn more, and there are people who want to browse
right away but would respond to guidance on the product listings
themselves...and probably stuff I'm not thinking of as well.

In any case, good luck with this and I hope my responses were helpful. I'll be
keeping my eye out for your site and I look forward to seeing it grow and
succeed further!

------
yitchelle
For a knife noobie like me, I can't really see the difference between the your
knives and those you mentioned in here[0]. Would be nice if you could add a
couple of the major differences to your post.

Having said that, your knives look amazing from an functional art perspective.
Well done on sourcing these knives.

[0] - [http://www.buttermilksupply.com/what-kind-of-knife-
should-i-...](http://www.buttermilksupply.com/what-kind-of-knife-should-i-
get/)

~~~
mikekchar
I have only had time to browse the website _very_ quickly (and I have to say
that my eyebrowse are raised when a vender of quality carbon steel knives
offers a sharpening service since you should sharpen the knife every day or
so). Here is a quick summary.

Carbon steel is very soft. It is really easy to sharpen. It dulls quickly. It
also can bend (which is very important in some fish knives, but not so
desirable for some other knives). Very high quality knives are made by folding
the metal and there is an outer layer of a harder steel (that's why you get
that pretty pattern).

Basically such a knife is easy to get wickedly sharp, but you need to sharpen
it a _lot_.

A stainless steel knife is harder steel (and doesn't discolor). It is
comparatively difficult to get very, very sharp, but it will hold its edge for
quite a while (a few weeks anyway). You use a "sharpening steel" to rebend the
edge of the knife to keep the sharp side facing down.

If you want a super sharp knife to do very precise work, nothing beats carbon
steel. Japanese knives in particular are (IMHO) the best because there is a
huge variety of knives with very particular properties. Stainless steel knives
a beginner friendly, but apart from that there is virtually no advantages.
Hence they "suck".

Top of the line carbon steel knives are often much cheaper than "top of the
line" stainless knives. Personally, I would never spend huge amounts of money
on a stainless knive because you are already pretty limited. However, I think
that they are still useful for many people since carbon steel requires quite a
lot of time and skill to look after properly.

And since I said "hard" and "soft" with respect to steel, I am aware that I am
almost certainly wrong in my usage of the words, so I invite someone with
metalurgy knowledge to correct me :-)

------
fookyong
Very timely. I just moved house and am looking to buy some new knives (avid
amateur chef!).

I am no knife expert, but I thought that at this price level, steel hardness
(HRC) is a property that a prospective buyer looks at? I don't see this listed
anywhere for these knives.

Edit: I noticed that it's in the body text of some knives. You might want to
add that info to the data table under each knife - that's where I looked first
:)

------
DrScump
For one thing, your site scales downward quite cleanly to minibrowsers (I
tried it with Opera on my GS5) - many major sites really screw that up.

~~~
buttermilk
Thanks! I tried to make it largely compatible. I'm still working on making the
mobile version load real cleanly. Thanks again.

------
steve19
Only cutlery/kitchen knives is limiting your market. The custom tactical and
custom outdoor knife market is huge and the customers can never get enough.

The best "pocket knife" I own sells for $500, and this is considered mid-
range. You are missing out on this action.

~~~
buttermilk
Well, both of you are right. The kitchen knife market in larger by way of
necessity. However, I suspect that the market for outdoor knives >$500 is
larger than that of kitchen knives. I do have kitchen knives showing up soon
above $800 and am talking to makers that produce knives around $1500.

Still, I'm interested in outdoor and pocket knives. I plan on integrating them
within a year. For now though, I'm trying to find a great EDC knife <$100. If
you've got any suggestions on any of these fronts, I'd be happy to hear them!

------
bensummers
Here's an entertaining talk by someone who created a similar site, although
not out of a love of knives.

[http://www.primeconf.com/talks/pete-
duncanson](http://www.primeconf.com/talks/pete-duncanson)

------
durkie
what do you have against ceramics? obviously you're not going to get one from
an old japanese dude that's been making them for decades, but they seem like
they'd be way harder and hold and edge for longer.

~~~
buttermilk
There are a few problems with ceramic knives. The problems that I see
personally are:

-Not sharp enough and no way to sharpen them at home without diamond, or potentially aluminum oxide, stones -They're chippy and breaky. One of the reasons most makers produce them without a pointed tip. The high hardness of a material that is inherently not tough, reduces the toughness further. This material has the ability to take a razor edge, but it would be uselessly brittle. Under light use though, I can see them working really well for some users. -The geometry is terrible. The bad geometry of the blade sacrifices cutting performance, the bad geometry of the handle is just uncomfortable. Their near weightlessness is also a detriment for anything beyond small tasks. -They're typically only small and, again, lack pointed tips -I find them to be particularly unattractive

Again, if they work for you, great! I got nothing against that and nobody
should think less of you. They just don't work for me.

------
dzlobin
Worth pointing out the current place that almost every cook and chef in NYC
make their source for knives: Korin
([http://www.korin.com](http://www.korin.com))

~~~
buttermilk
Korin has definitely got a huge marketshare. I appreciate what they've done
for the industry and the exposure they've given to crafted knives. Their
website used to drive me crazy though and it was rare for me to find an
exciting double-bevel knife. Love to them though.

------
thoughtpalette
I live right off Logan Square. I always wondered what that Butterfat store
was! Is this where you're based out of?

Love the site. What are you using for the payment gateway? Stripe?

------
threeseven
On my iPhone 6 (8.4) a short video of what seems to be a metalworker pops up
and loops when I open your link from the HN iOS app. Just thought you may want
to know.

------
buttermilk
Wow. Thank you so much for all of the feedback and response. I appreciate this
so much. I'll be going through each comment today with a response.

------
venomsnake
Not a single Sakai made laser. Shame on you.

Anyway it is good to see new players coming. Although your site a slightly
hipsterish feel to it. Good luck ...

~~~
buttermilk
Ha! I appreciate fingerpointing with some knowledge behind it. You're right, I
don't currently have any Sakai lasers. Though some of my knives are made in
Sakai. The two reasons I'm not stockpiling lasers are: -they're typically
manufactured and not hand-forged (most of the better ones are hand-ground,
however) and though I have no significant opposition to this, it's not where I
wanted to start. I have limited resources and I'd prefer to support to
individual craftsmen for now. -I've used a good handful, and I've loved very
few. People lose their shit over the Sakai Yusuke, but I can't get into the
samples I have. That said, I've owned and loved some Tanaka R2 knives. Crazy
thin and also high performing. I'm working on stocking some soon.

The hipsterish feel was not an accident. I wanted clean and hip with both
modern and traditional elements. The other side of this spectrum has been done
already!

------
gesman
I love the quality of the site - top notch implementation of e-commerce
portal.

Could you forward me the coordinates of the person who built the site?

gesman at mensk.com

~~~
buttermilk
Hi Gesman. Thanks for the kind words! I was the one that built the site. What
can I do for you?

~~~
gesman
My wife wants to revamp poodleit.com - to make it look luxurious brand
(everything is hand-made top quality items).

She likes wordpress but does not use WooCommerce - she uses ecwid.com and
wants to keep using it.

Any ideas?

gesman at mensk.com

PS: i love everything about your site.

------
UserRights
WTF are random ads about webshops on HN page one?

~~~
buttermilk
Not an ad! I was looking for any input, which so many people have been kind
enough to offer me. Though I understand your irritation. My apologies.

------
zatkin
Friday, November 13th is upon us, folks.

