
Things I Won’t Work With: Peroxide Peroxides (2014) - rishabhd
http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2014/10/10/things_i_wont_work_with_peroxide_peroxides
======
marklyon
If you've not had the pleasure, take some time this weekend to read John D
Clark's amazing book Ignition!

[https://library.sciencemadness.org/library/books/ignition.pd...](https://library.sciencemadness.org/library/books/ignition.pdf)
(PDF may not render properly in Chrome)

~~~
type0
Chemistry is a fascinating subject, people who don't like it become that way
mostly because of terrible teachers, it's also my own experience. If you study
chemistry on your own you will find it's much more fun and useful for
understanding the world, many aspects of our whole modern society exists
thanks to chemistry, i wish more people opened their eyes to it.

Here are some fun podcasts to listen:
[http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/podcasts/](http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/podcasts/)

~~~
sevenless
I have a theory that everyone who studies chemistry is some kind of
pyromaniac.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I always say that there are only two real specializations in chemistry -
pyrotechnics and drug manufacturing.

------
sampo
I think this is my favorite of the series:
[http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2008/02/26/san...](http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2008/02/26/sand_wont_save_you_this_time)

~~~
pavel_lishin
I'm a big fan of
[http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2010/02/23/thi...](http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_with_dioxygen_difluoride),
if only for the call-out of a chemical supplier that claims to sell the stuff
by the buttload.

Second favorite goes to
[http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2006/05/30/thi...](http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2006/05/30/things_i_wont_work_with_frisky_perchlorates),
if only for the phrase "I’d like to shake the hand of whoever determined that
property, assuming he has one left."

~~~
yk
That one has my favorite chemistry quote:

    
    
        At seven hundred freaking degrees, fluorine starts to 
        dissociate into monoatomic radicals, thereby losing its 
        gentle and forgiving nature.

~~~
gozur88
Fluorine is in almost every chemistry joke. That's not a good sign if you need
to handle it.

------
xlayn
There are things that we shouln't work with, but we do because we don't know
the associated risk, some examples:

    
    
      -maintenance of your DOT4 brakes? do not touch the DOT4
       brake fuild, it's absorbed though your skin and it will
       kill your kidneys when they try to filter it.
      -Old house in america? check you don't have any pipe 
       soldered with lead, hot water will eventually make it 
       evaporate
      -lead in electrical solder wire
      -mercury, a powerful neuro-toxin
    

Edit:

    
    
      -again, old house, check to change the paint, yep, lead
       in the pain again.
      -close to an airport? beside noise, lead in the airplanes 
       fuel
      -Teflon... again Dupont and 3M
      -Aluminum on cookware... toxic
    

lead was one of the technical debts introduced by a guy (1)... the same guy
who introduce it to the fuel making a generation at least 10 iq point less
smart.... and created the CFCs in aerosol... Dupont, GM and others did a lot
of money on that.... as always.

(1)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley,_Jr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley,_Jr).

~~~
sbierwagen
1) DOT4 doesn't exactly jump through the skin-- it's no dimethylmercury, or
even DMSO. Its MSDS recommends against "prolonged" skin contact. It's not much
worse than any other common hydrocarbon solvent, like gasoline.
[http://www.brake-
eng.com/global/downloads/dot4fl%20dot%204%2...](http://www.brake-
eng.com/global/downloads/dot4fl%20dot%204%20material%20safety%20data%20sheet.pdf)

2.) Hot water certainly doesn't "evaporate" lead-- lead's boiling point is
1700C. Hot water can _leach_ lead from solder joints, if your water isn't
treated properly: [https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and-drinking-water/basic-
in...](https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and-drinking-water/basic-information-
about-lead-drinking-water)

3.) Yeah, lead solder isn't great to spend a lot of time with, which is why
RoHS was introduced in 2003:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Subst...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Substances_Directive)

4.) Where are you going to find bulk metallic mercury in any house built in
the last three decades?

5.) Lead paint was also phased out years ago.

6.) Leaded avgas _does_ still exist, and _is_ bad. Don't buy property near
airports that fly small planes.

7.) Teflon is about as chemically inert as a flororcarbon can possibly be. You
might be thinking of Perfluorooctanoic acid, which is involved in Teflon
production, and is pretty nasty:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid)

8.) Aluminum cookware isn't toxic, are you nuts?

~~~
vilhelm_s
A house older than three decades, but there was an interesting story
(previously discussed on Hacker News) about some poor guy unexpectedly finding
a huge lump, probably left over from an old heating system.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10357115](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10357115)

~~~
cbr
Not a lump; it's liquid anyway. Lots of tiny droplets under our floor:
[http://www.jefftk.com/mercury-under-
floor-2x.jpg](http://www.jefftk.com/mercury-under-floor-2x.jpg)

------
ajmurmann
Previous discussions:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8440486](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8440486)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9021919](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9021919)

------
flashman
I never tire of seeing this series reposted. I only wish he'd written more
since 2014.

~~~
kaybe
There is probably only so much he won't work with.

------
kristianp
Why chain-mail gloves? I guess it would react with plastic gloves, but
wouldn't some peroxide get through the gaps in the chain-mail?

~~~
kazinator
I'm also curious. If the peroxide explodes, a layer of chain mail could
protect against cuts from the shrapnel, I suppose?

~~~
epmos
I'm guessing, but since in other contexts metals are used as a catalyst to
decompose HOOH I suspect that it protects your hands from direct exposure.
This would release a lot of heat, but that's likely better for you.

------
PhasmaFelis
Several of his articles mention chain mail gloves. I'm curious how those would
protect you from chemicals, since chain mail is obviously quite porous. Or are
they just meant to protect you from shrapnel when the container explodes in
your hands?

(I also recalled my father demonstrating to me, at a young age, how a candle
flame wouldn't penetrate screen-door mesh, presumably because the metal is
conductive; and wondered if mail might perhaps give some fire protection
similarly, by spreading the heat thin. That seems unlikely, though.)

~~~
grkvlt
Yes, the chain mail protects you from the experiment detonation products, such
as fragments of blast shield or fume hood, lacerating your hands. Also
recommended is an iron face-mask and heavy leather apron.

The candle effect you mention, is the principle behind Sir Humphry Day's
safety lamp, as used by miners, which used a wire gauze screen to prevent
flames igniting other flammable gases in the mine atmosphere. See
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_lamp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_lamp)
for more information.

------
fuzzfactor
I was calling in an order for some Acetic Acid one day and the lady asked
"Glacial?"

I said, "Well, I think I'd like it a little faster than that."

------
WalterBright
He mentions the Me-163, which used peroxide. A fuel leak would dissolve the
pilot.

~~~
yxhuvud
It is more probable that the pilot would be violently redistributed in the
atmosphere.

~~~
masklinn
Yeah I doubt it used oxidizer to refrigerate the cabin so an averaging of the
pilot/atmosphere ratio seems more likely than a dissolution oxidizer leak[0].
And it would probably set the pilot on fire rather than dissolve it:

> Because of its extreme oxidizing potential, T-Stoff was a very dangerous
> chemical to handle, so special rubberized suits were required when working
> with it, as it would react with most cloth, leather, or other combustible
> material and cause it to spontaneously combust.

At 57% methanol and 30% hydrazine hydrate (by weight), the reductant wasn't
exactly innocuous either.

[0] even more so as the reductant and oxidizer were picked for their
hypergolic combination, ground explosion is not unheard of for 163.

------
dredmorbius
I'm finding the peroxide-ozone as suggested wastewater treatment an
interesting suggestion. Any further soures on that?

~~~
dalke
A web search found
[http://www.calpoly.edu/~ceenve/enve/jsczechowski/enve436/pro...](http://www.calpoly.edu/~ceenve/enve/jsczechowski/enve436/projects/UV/UV-
Ozone-Peroxide.html) .

> Based on these results the use of the UV/Ozone/Peroxide, especially the
> modified UV/Peroxide system, proved an effective process for removing and
> containing VOC contamination in the groundwater. The system was designed to
> treat 30,000 m g/l and the average influent was 25,00 m g/l. Along with the
> high contaminant removal, the system design conditions were met. The
> modified UV/Peroxide process replaced the UV/Ozone/Peroxide system, because
> the initial system, containing ozone, required lots of maintenance on the
> ozone generator and the delivery system. Ozone leaks were discovered
> (causing downtime) and the residual ozone proved to be corrosive in the
> reaction chamber.

This supports the description that Lowe gave.

[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=UV%2FOZONE%2FPEROXIDE+TREATMENT&t=...](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=UV%2FOZONE%2FPEROXIDE+TREATMENT&t=ffsb&ia=web)
seems to be a fruitful search term.

~~~
dredmorbius
Thanks. I did see that earlier.

More toxics / contaminants remediation than sewage treatment. Might be
interesting to see if it could break down, e.g., dioxins.

------
Jun8
I wonder if somebody has done similar posts (as well written and humorous) on
"Code I won't work with".

~~~
lakkal
[http://thedailywtf.com/](http://thedailywtf.com/) would count as "Code I've
been forced to work with".

------
fauria
This are some cool unventilated kitchen experiments involving leather, sugar,
flour and 99% hydrogen peroxide:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i06SnRCQN6U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i06SnRCQN6U)

------
mcguire
" _High-concentration hydrogen peroxide was formerly available in 70, 90, and
98% concentrations in sizes of 1-gallon, 30-gallon, and bulk-tanker truck
volumes._ "

From the HTP Wikipedia page.

I grew up 3 houses from I-40. I'm surprised I'm alive.

------
labster
(2014)

Entertaining, as always.

------
sveit
"Instead of being locked in a self-storage unit with two rabid wolverines, why
not three?"

------
razzmataz
For me, hydroflouric acid.

------
xbryanx
Is Corante no more?

~~~
jloughry
Dr Lowe moved everything from Corante to _Science_ including the archives. Not
too long ago. Corante was having too many technical problems.

------
Aelinsaar
This is a fun 2 minutes if you enjoyed that blog.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6MfZbCvPCw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6MfZbCvPCw)

------
ommunist
After this publication I shall use this sequence _O-O_ as my favourite
emoticon. Or oxygenicon.

------
unixhero
Hooh?

~~~
unixhero
No seriously, what is the author intending to say that when repeatedly putting
it between sentences.

~~~
rsfern
It's a fairly common informal way of writing the chemical formula (H2O2) that
tries to be a little more faithful to the geometry of the molecule...

so HOOOH is hydrogen perperoxide, literally a chain of three oxygen atoms with
a hydrogen atom at either end. In my electrochem (Chem 2) class, the
instructor used to sometimes write HOH for water.

