
Ask HN: How can I get over my lethargy, lack of focus, and other problems? - mmsaint
I see myself as someone who&#x27;s really interested in programming, and computer science more broadly. Like the kind of person who&#x27;s into it more as a hobby than a career choice; I was <i>almost</i> one of those kids who start hacking when they&#x27;re eight. But while I know I am really interested in that stuff, most of the time I just stare at the wall when I take my laptop to Starbucks.<p>Again, it&#x27;s not that I&#x27;m not interested in it. Most of the time, I just have this insurmountable mental block. I don&#x27;t know if it&#x27;s depression, or what, but it&#x27;s not merely a lack of energy. Many days I can barely even read; my brain just won&#x27;t process the words on the page, or on the screen. The occasional, completely random good days I have are marked not only by energy, but mental clarity. Most of the time there&#x27;s like an ugly fog hanging over my head. When that fog isn&#x27;t there I&#x27;m a twenty-five year old version of that curious eight year old hacker, but when it&#x27;s there I just stare at the wall.<p>I&#x27;ve tried all kinds of things, except professional help, which I can&#x27;t really do right now because of reasons: vitamins, caffeine, no caffeine, exercise, meditation, not eating carbs, getting more sunlight. None of it works. Maybe someone can point me in the right direction?
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alasdair_
Medication may ultimately be the answer for you (I know you said you can't go
there right now). For me personally, getting the correct medication was
literally life changing.

That being said, I'd suggest being really, really specific in what you want to
accomplish. Forget all the grand plans, just nail down one very small thing
you want to get done and post it here (gives accountability) Also post the
very first thing you need to do to get started on that thing. It may be
something as simple as "open up my IDE on my laptop and create class Foo"

Get into a loop of tiny improvements. Make each loop only take a few seconds.
If you are making a web page, get the simplest possible page up and running
and then add just one more tiny thing to it and refresh the page. If it's
something you can't see, create the simplest possible unit test and then code
against that.

When you have so much stuff you want to accomplish, it feels overwhelming and
distracting. Boil it down to one thing, anything, and start there. The same
approach works for all kinds of stuff by the way - writing a novel? Just open
your saved draft and add a single sentence. Exercising? Do nothing but put
your running shoes on and step outside, even if you come back in right away.
Trying to mentally plan the entire thing in advance is exhausting so don't do
it, only do the simplest thing that you can possibly do to start - usually
it's enough to do one more extremely simple thing, and another, but don't get
ahead of yourself - you don't need to worry about any of that stuff right now,
only the very first step.

~~~
kyj1233
> Get into a loop of tiny improvements.

Yeah. And also you should also _evaluate_ the progress so that you can do it
even faster and more accurate next time. That's how you stand out from your
competitors.

~~~
itchynosedev
I think the point of the advice was not higher performance, but to get out of
the destructive non-functional loop.

If anything, I think concentrating on performance and competition can make it
worse.

------
afarrell
1) How much are you sleeping each night and what is your environment when
sleeping? Do you wear a sleeping mask or play rain noises? Do you go to sleep
at a consistent time each night? Do you use your bed for things other than
sleep/sex?

2) If you record audio of yourself sleeping, do you snore loudly or stop
breathing for periods of time followed by sudden snorting or rasping?

3) Do you have low Thyroid Stimulating Hormone levels?

4) Do you have recurrent nosebleeds or red spots on your skin?

~~~
shaunxcode
What is #4 a symptom of?

~~~
ARCarr
Leukemia

------
floatingatoll
Be more specific. EDIT: Answering these questions will help you help yourself.
I don't necessarily have any guidance to offer, specifically, but you should
collect this information until it reveals something or nothing, and log that
along with what you've already logged. IANAD but you knew that posting to HN.

What vitamins have you tried, at what dosages?

Does caffeine have _any_ effect on you whatsoever?

If you drink a cup of tea right before bed, do you lose a night of sleep?

What habitual pattern did you maintain with 'exercise' and 'meditation' and
for how long?

How soon during the day do you know it'll be an energy or a foggy day?

Can you read fiction on the foggy days? Non-fiction? Arxiv papers?

Do you consume added sugar in your everyday diet? Artificial sweeteners? "0g
sugar, 20g fruit juice sugars" sweeteners (I'm looking at you, Whole Foods)?

Do you drink sweetened soda – sugar, fructose, glucose, fruit juice, all
artificial sweeteners, cactus juice, what the fuck ever is new this year? (If
so, stop. Quit smoking cigarettes, stop drinking diluted sweetener, and get
some exercise, or else you'll die of problems worse than feeling foggy!)

Do you snooze your alarm?

Have you researched the ebb and flow of cortisol throughout the day, beginning
at wakeup?

What happens if you drink a half cup of 100% fruit juice (NOT orange,
pineapple, or papaya!) the instant your eyes open?

How does a steak breakfast make you feel for the rest of the day? Or a steak
dinner, the next morning?

Do you eat one large meal, two small meals, and some snacks each day? Do you
eat around the same time every day? Do you eat every day at all?

Do you suffer weird problems that could be loosely classified as 'inflamed' or
similar? Allergies, recurring ear-nose-threat issues, joint or muscle issues,
etc.

~~~
floatingatoll
The point here is to get you thinking of data to collect, because that's how I
think, so that's how I'm thinking about it. Each of these questions
potentially decreases the search space you have to consider. If you're not
sure, skip that question for now and collect the information at your leisure.
If one question is obviously "well yes of course", remember that "of course"
is an human invention, and means nothing whatsoever in the field of medicine,
no matter how much doctors may wish it was otherwise sometimes.

EDIT: Also, each question might be coincidentally 'yes' or 'no' and not
meaningful. Consider them 'avenues of investigations', not 'the answer to
life, the universe, and everything'. But if eating a steak breakfast makes you
happy every day, it's critical to know how to soften cheap steak with salt and
time, because you'll be eating a lot steak until you figure out what the
actual deal is :)

------
tcbawo
I'm not sure if you are fighting procrastination. But, in the last some of the
things that help me is to have a keep a list and keep knocking off the #2
item. A lot of times, when I introspect, I realize that I was procrastinating
due to fear (sometimes failure, sometimes losing a purpose). But, I think
lists are habit-forming and will help you get and stay organized.

Also, seek out a mentor, coach, or someone to be accountable to. This will
help keep you on track.

~~~
natch
Why the #2 item?

~~~
ralmeida
Maybe a form of structured procastination? Fooling your brain that you are
procastinating (you are avoiding the #1 task after all), but you keep having
output.

~~~
tcbawo
Yes, that was my original intent.

------
KineticTroi
Well what kind of project are you trying to work on?

Sometimes we unknowingly build a mental block and self-resistance against
working on projects that are too broad, too complicated, or even things that
are just not interesting enough for our internal psyche.

For technical work, you have to focus of on your focus. I won't drive anywhere
at anytime. For me, a single drive wrecks my concentration for the whole day.
Also, stay out of phone use, the internet, and shopping. Stay out of mind
numbing meetings and discussion groups. Diet wise, I could recommend simple
things like apples, nuts, cookies, coffee and tea. As much as you would like.
I could get the complicated stuff out of the way in 3-4 weeks locked in a
closet with lots of privacy and bad personal hygiene practices.

The frills, database, and front-end stuff can be far more enjoyable and
leisurely. You can even do those things at a coffee shop. I would considered
that kind of programming as a psychological reward for doing the hard stuff.

Also, I'd investigate regulating your sugar levels through diet. That can
certainly cause brain fog. People who turn to soft drinks for that quick fix,
mental lift ultimately wind up in with bad focus and poor health.

------
scottbartell
Sounds like it could be ADHD, take a look at the DSM-5 Criteria for ADHD[0]
(the same criteria that a doctor would use to diagnose you).

Here are the criteria for Inattention:

\- Often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes
in schoolwork, at work, or with other activities.

\- Often has trouble holding attention on tasks or play activities.

\- Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.

\- Often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish
schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (e.g., loses focus, side-
tracked).

\- Often has trouble organizing tasks and activities.

\- Often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to do tasks that require mental
effort over a long period of time (such as schoolwork or homework).

\- Often loses things necessary for tasks and activities (e.g. school
materials, pencils, books, tools, wallets, keys, paperwork, eyeglasses, mobile
telephones).

\- Is often easily distracted

\- Is often forgetful in daily activities.

[0]
[https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/diagnosis.html](https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/diagnosis.html)

------
e59d134d
> I've tried all kinds of things, except professional help, which I can't
> really do right now because of reasons: vitamins, caffeine, no caffeine,
> exercise, meditation, not eating carbs, getting more sunlight. None of it
> works.

I am just assuming but perhaps you didn't try some of these long enough? I
have read somewhere that it takes at least six months before benefits of
meditation are appear. Probably same thing with exercise or vitamins too.

I had run into focus issues too, went to doctor and described it just like how
you are describing. He told me to take vitamin D. And then recommended to take
ADHD test & lift heavy (to increase testosterone as I was on low end). Only
thing, I really did semi-consistently is taking Vitamin D almost daily. I do
seem to have better focus now, but still it could be improved a lot.

------
smt88
HN isn't going to solve your mental health issues, especially if you have
depression or an anxiety disorder. Mental health care is affordable in the US,
Canada, and much of Europe, even if it's just a support group or a counselor.

It sounds like you have a proactive attitude about solving your problem and
you've reached the limit of self care or amateur care. I really encourage you
to see a professional.

------
m0llusk
What you need is purpose. Read Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl and
watch How to know your life purpose in minutes by Adam Leipzig. You are
talking about all these things that you kind of do or whatever but if you were
filled with purpose then there would be that one thing which you must do and
the rest would fall to the side and become irrelevant.

------
Mz
You need to figure out what is actually causing the problem. Start by keeping
a journal. Include details about your diet in it, plus note when you are
having a good day, etc.

Also, read up on sick building syndrome, regional air quality issues, etc.

But first you need to pinpoint a cause. You can't just randomly try health
tricks and hope they will work. If you don't know why you are lethargic and
lack focus, you can't fix it by randomly throwing darts at the health
dartboard with your eyes closed, so to speak.

~~~
floatingatoll
You can, actually, just try randomly try health tricks and hope they will
work. But if you don't keep a log, you won't be able to get help from others
if/when you run out of ideas to throw darts at.

~~~
Mz
One of the problems with randomly trying stuff is that if something works, you
may not realize it and may not know what specific thing actually worked.
Keeping a journal helps pinpoint patterns.

There is a lot more to it than that, but it is a place to start, which is all
I am really hoping to give this person. I have spent a lot of time resolving
my own health issues, and it started with finally getting the right diagnosis.
Then I spent a lot of time on alternative med lists and pursuing a diet and
lifestyle approach and blah blah blah. I could say tons more on this topic,
but I tend to treat lightly, in part because that often gets ugly reactions. I
actually know a lot about this space, but it is not a space that is easy to
discuss on HN and it is a space rife with pitfalls. I pursued carefully
researched options, but there are genuinely a lot of nightmarish stories about
people who were desperate and did things like fly to third world countries to
get stem cell treatments or whatever and ended up seriously screwed over by
it. So it's a hard thing to talk about at all. It is very hard to put out
solid information on this type approach and doing so risks getting one lumped
in with charlatans and the like.

~~~
floatingatoll
A thousand times yes to journaling.

------
tekkk
There's a huge barrier for entry in programming for beginners so don't take it
too hard on yourself if you feel you don't know how to get started. If you are
interested in learning programming I'd advise you to surround yourself with
like-minded people who are also enthusiastic about programming and want to
learn how to code. The place for me was CS department at University but I
guess there's a lot of other places too.

For the energy part, a lot of comes from personal determination. For me I'd
say programming always feels a bit tedious and boring coming back after a
proper vacation =). What helps is of course gym and socializing about coding
the right amount. It comes easier after you've established a routine and have
a distinct goal to work on. But yeah doing it all by yourself might be too
much, for me it was at least (and still at times is). Not knowing what to do
was the hard part, after getting to know the basics you kinda free yourself to
do whatever you want after which it's all about determination to do it.

And if it's depression well that's a different matter entirely. I hope not,
it's a shitty place to be in. If you can get a free assessment at psychologist
that would probably be a good idea. In that case getting around other people
might be the thing. Exercise also is very important. Also only studying CS
might not be then the best thing to do, a creative hobby might serve as a
better outlet and help you get energized with the coding.

Can I ask what you're about to build? I can help you get started if it's
something webby like eg. React/Nodejs. You should setup yourself a taskboard
like Trello and start making tasks that are not too overwhelming and have them
in for example sections like: User stories (abstract goals for what you are
about to build: 'As a user I want to be able to log in' etc), Backlog (tasks,
such as 'Create a React component for rendering log in form' or 'Study React
course x'), Bugs, Done but untested, Tested, Merged and deployed. That should
get you started for professionalish style of development.

------
xupybd
Hi there. Really simple one that you may be missing, hydration. I don't know
why but I don't really get thirsty very often. Instead I get the symptoms you
described. Normally it hits me the next day. I'll go a day forgetting to drink
enough water and the next day I'm smashed. It took me a long time to notice
the correlation.

Also you probably know this but coffee and alcohol don't hydrate very well. I
used to think I was getting plenty of water, but as it was mostly coffee and
the occasional after work beer, I wasn't really.

------
reese_john
If you are a man, I suggest you see a doctor and get your testosterone levels
checked. Low testosterone can be an issue even if you are young, and is highly
correlated with the symptoms you described.

------
throwaway90211
What you describe (specially the "mental fog" part) sounds like what happened
to me right before being diagnosed with a gluten allergy. Most days I wasn't
able to think straight/work &c, and I felt into a sleepy state.

If paired with some other symptoms like bone pain, insomnia &c, I'd recommend
trying out living on no wheat, lactose &c. for some days and note if the
mental fog goes away. If it does => doctor. If it doesn't => doctor anyway,
since it seems you do have some allergy related condition.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
I don't have a gluten allergy. But my wife wanted to try a paleo diet. I found
that a fair amount of mental fog went away when we did that. I've become much
more aware of how my diet affects my brain. I don't have to do pure paleo -
just cut down on the amount of junk and hyper-processed food.

This is anecdote, not data. Your mileage may vary...

------
uptownfunk
Forget programming for the time being, you're young.

Do something else that excites you.

If nothing excites you, go for a long drive somewhere to an interesting place,
don't even plan it too much, just go somewhere new.

------
DrNuke
Walking one hour a day is very good at restarting the body functions and
having a routine can help immensely for work. So barring any underlying
disease, I would start today from scratch and deliver a doable indie project
in a week, without resorting to the internet for help. Rinse and repeat with a
couple of longer projects in order to become 100% active again in a couple of
months. Good luck and no sh*t!

------
cbanek
First off, realize that pushing against a wall takes effort, but neither you
or the wall go very far. If you aren't feeling it, and aren't productive at
all, don't force it. Take a break. Do you feel better when you do other
things? If you feel this way doing everything, it might be time to seek more
help (I know you said it's hard because of reasons, but trust me, you're worth
it.) Try to shake it up a bit, maybe a change of scenery (like library instead
of Starbucks).

If the short term things don't work, I agree with other people's suggestion
about journaling. Taking stock of your daily condition might provide clues,
and at least gives you the feeling of doing something to take control.

The solutions you're talking about are good ones, but have you stuck with all
of those? Sometimes these things take weeks or months to really kick in and
help mood. Even most medications take a while. Give yourself some patience.
And stick with the exercise, good diet, and routines - they certainly aren't
hurting you!

------
aminorex
My first guess is inflammation of the microglia. Try a combination of
galantamine and ibudilast twice daily, and avoid _all_ gluten. If the brain
fog doesn't lift, my diagnosis was wrong and you are no worse for it. If my
diagnosis was right, it should make a very marked and phenomenologically
obvious subjective difference.

~~~
arrrvalue
Before seeking these prescriptions, please be evaluated by a sleep lab
(diagnostic overnight polysomnogram) to rule out obstructive sleep apnea.

------
bitwize
Gtfo of Starbucks. You won't get shit done there. Find a cozy corner of your
room or apartment and set up camp.

------
danso
As others have said, don't ignore the possibility of an undiagnosed condition.
But besides that, maybe it would help to join a group to have the structure,
incentive, and (let's face it) pressure that can come from social groups, in
the way that joining an exercise club or even hiring a trainer can be what
gets people into a exercising for the long-term.

You didn't mention a job; do you have one? Or any other kind of structure to
your day? I'm a fairly introverted person who likes to think himself above
extrisnic rewards, but my life (both during, and outside of work) was never so
focused and purpose-driven than when I had a job (news reporting) that imposed
daily, hard deadlines. Moving to jobs where deadlines were measured in weeks
or months had a somewhat detrimental effect on my ability to focus.

------
WheelsAtLarge
1) Make a plan, any plan. A bad plan is worth more than no plan. So do it.

2) Go to sleep and wake-up at the same time everyday.

3) Get out of the house

4) Spend a few buxs to take a community college class. This will force you to
take action and get a kickstart.

5) Get professional help.

~~~
CodeWriter23
++ Make a plan. I write todos on a legal pad of the next n things I need to
code. I use pencil and I gloriously cross them out using a red pencil when
complete. It's a gamification strategy that keeps me engaged in my work.

------
lhuser123
I would say talk to a psychologist. But that's too simple. Better advice would
be, why even do that ? The answer is to understand yourself better.

Often, it's more complicated than we think. Probably a combination. And it's
very hard to define the problem by yourself. The mind is not very reliable and
like to play dirty tricks on us.

By talking enough about it, and receiving expert feedback, you somehow learn
more about yourself. You're able to see the problems more clearly.

------
yomritoyj
My advice would be to talk to a friend. It is very hard to give advice over
the Internet without knowing your personality and circumstances.

One thing which is impossible is to have a 25-year old version of a 8-year old
hacker. A 8-year old has infinite time and no worries. At 25 conscious or
unconscious worries about where your life is going may be holding you back.
Integrating hacking into a realistic life plan that can fulfill your other
needs might help free up your mind.

------
tokyokawasemi
Definitely get some help if possible. But in terms of better planning, here's
what worked for me:

1\. Set a goal or two for your week on Monday. 2\. Then each morning over
coffee each day, list out a few tasks (max of six, but even two or three is
ok) that help you progress towards those weekly goals. 3\. Do them one at a
time, in order of priority. (If you still feel you can't take these on, break
them down into smaller tasks if you can)

~~~
floatingatoll
"each morning over coffee each day" here is worth calling out especially as a
useful habit in support of maintaining stable circadian rhythms. If you wake
up at the same time each day (or sunrise +/\- a fixed interval) and perform a
focus-intensive ritual while consuming a stimulant drug each morning, your
brain _may_ simply learn to wake up each morning to prepare for the task
ahead, synchronize your morning cortisol spike with your recurring wakeup
time, and have you ready to get out of bed each morning without any urging
from your alarm.

This isn't obvious because the rigor of fixed sleep/wake times is harsh on
modern souls. You have to go lay in the bed in the dark and quiet at the same
time (or sunset +/\- fixed interval) each night, with your phone screen down,
DND'd, and charging. If you like to read at night, you may be able to prepend
bed with reading _as long as_ you always begin at the same time, and in the
same place, and _especially_ with the same lighting.

This stuff isn't guaranteed to work without more investigation along cortisol
and circadian lines, but it appears to work by default for something like
50-80% of humanity, so you might be one of the lucky ones.

------
12s12m
One things that has helped me in the past is going anonymous and creating a
project and just shipping features without thinking a lot about architecture
and code quality. Making sure that I made progress every day.

------
dmlote
The message is clear and simple, but can you deal with it?
[http://home.nwciowa.edu/firth/kafka.htm](http://home.nwciowa.edu/firth/kafka.htm)

------
arrrvalue
When you wake up, do you sense you've had vivid dreams? Or do you just have a
blank mind and headache?

Do your teeth bite together normally? Can you breathe clearly through both
sides of your nose throughout the night?

~~~
dek0de
That seems to be a very directed line of questioning. Mind If I ask why you
seem to think sleep deprivation is the issue? Your last 2 questions trouble me
a little, as I exhibit both of those conditions, rather irregularly.

~~~
dsnuh
My guess is sleep apnea.

~~~
arrrvalue
Yes, exactly; this sounds like profound cognitive dysfunction consistent with
either OSA or Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome. If a skeletal abnormality is
present it would manifest as a compromised bite relationship, while the more
mild UARS could appear with obstruction of the nasal passages.

Worth evaluating.

~~~
vldx
This is interesting, would you recommend any specific resources to research
further?

------
harrisreynolds
Where do you live? I've found that just living in a place with lots of energy
can help boost my own motivation and energy.

Recently I've been in Austin and it is a great example.

Vigorous exercise can also be a BIG help.

Best of luck.

------
jganetsk
Have you tried light therapy? It's great. [https://re-timer.com/](https://re-
timer.com/)

------
hitsurume
What exactly are you doing when you get to starbucks? Are you trying to follow
a tutorial? Read a programming book? Watching a video on programming? If so,
try doing the same thing you're trying to do but with any other topic, like
reading a fantasy book, or watching a documentary on the laptop. If the latter
is more interesting then the former, then really you're interests aren't as
strong as you'd like yourself to believe.

~~~
floatingatoll
Does the fog remain if you try places other than Starbucks, right then, when
you're feeling foggy? Local library quiet room, different coffee shop, living
room chair.

------
nyrulez
Try Emwave 2. It may work. If it does, it can provide a big boost to your
mental/emotional setup.

------
hkiely
Maybe you should look into ME/CFS and see if you have any of the other
symptoms.

------
SirLJ
Get laid

