
Muse: the brain sensing headband - beltex
http://www.choosemuse.com
======
Killah911
A $300 consumer product that promises to help one be more "mindful" &
"present" more "efficiently" than plain old meditation. What is sad is the
irony in all of this. What's sadder is that I want to buy it...

Might be brilliant on their part. Corporate consultant gurus are making quite
a nickel telling execs to be more "mindful" & "present". Might be an opportune
time to break into the market and displace some spiritual advisors with a
little technology too. Maybe Verison 2.0 will help you down the 8fold path
faster and without years of meditation & conditioning.

~~~
DaniFong
Two things:

1) A recently discovered very strong correlation (needs further longitudinal
study) between mindfulness practice and a reduced decline in mental
performance with age.

[http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnagi.2014.00...](http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnagi.2014.00076/full)

2) I had a demo -- the device is actually very responsive and seems to really
work. The science (not conclusive but interesting) behind it is a well known
correlation with meditation and brain alpha waves. YMMV.

~~~
nabla9
I have been doing zazen meditation as 2-3 hours per day for 10+ years.

The way I see it, mindfulness practices and meditation gives long term effects
because you are doing the effort yourself. It's not the mental state you are
in during the meditation that brings the long term benefits. What works is
your constant effort to look at your mind and notice what it does, even when
you are distracted or feel vexed and especially then.

When you do 7 day zazen retreat where you meditate 10-16 hours per day, you
feel pain in your legs, periods of intense drowsiness, agitation, strong
emotions, boredom, etc. all this while sitting and looking calm outwards.
Within all this internal storm you are just looking at what happens your own
mind at the current moment. Attaching yourself to pleasant mental states you
get in meditation is just waste of time.

The way these EEG devices work is by giving you feedback loop that gets you
into relaxed state. That's not same as meditation. It can have good effects,
but it's not the same.

One person drives with car 10 km every day and other person runs 10 km every
day. The amount they travel correlates very closely, but only one person gets
exercise.

~~~
dalore
But meditating for 2-3 hours PER DAY seems a bit excessive, no?

Then meditating for 10-16 hours per days seems really excessive.

It's almost like you're saying, these people who meditate, they don't really
meditate, they just pay lip service. To meditate you have to be dedicated and
spend 2-3 hours per day doing it if you're going to it correctly.

~~~
Killah911
A bit judgmental aye? Reads to me like the comment is based on the meditator's
experience and isn't an injunction on other, but an observation based on
experience.

I think it's an important observation to point out to that this device may
intact hinder the desired effects of (at least) zazen.

People watch TV or play games for mutiple hours, meditating 2-3hours seems
hardly excessive in light of that.

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tiziano88
I'm having a hard time searching for this thing as "muse band" on Google :)

~~~
beltex
[http://interaxon.ca](http://interaxon.ca)

The company behind Muse.

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pknight
I've been waiting for a basic device that just tells me roughly what brain
state I'm in (alpha/beta/delta/theta/gamma dominant) with bonus points if it
has a feedback mechanism to make it easier to train one self into a certain
state.

I don't think they got the pricing right. There are already quite a lot of
consumer EEG devices on the market that either do more and/or are cheaper.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_consumer_brain%E2...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_consumer_brain%E2%80%93computer_interfaces)

~~~
Breefield
But none that are as pretty and well tuned.

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herval
I'd like to dispense just a bit of unsolicited feedback: the website is SO
flashy/animated that I scrolled all the way to the end and didn't pay
attention to _any_ of the actual content.

~~~
rambojohnson
agreed. the constantly shifting background colors gave me a headache.
navigating the site wearing Muse would break the product.

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yoz-y
Big issue with this kind of headband is the position of electrodes. Forehead
seems like a good place in the first time since the frontal lobe is devoid of
hair, however the EEG signal at this place is heavily artifacted by muscular
activity (blinks, eye movements, facial muscles).

The most "interesting" brain activity also happens in the central axis of the
brain (going from nose, through the top of the head and back to the occiput).
It is however a design challenge to get electrodes to this place without the
use of ugly caps and gel.

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curiousDog
Ahh, was hoping it was a device that delivered minimal tDCS. Does such a
device exist?[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-
current_sti...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-
current_stimulation)

~~~
icelancer
[http://www.foc.us/](http://www.foc.us/)

Foc.us does. I have one. Works well.

EDIT: Downvoted for providing a link? I don't work for Foc.us or anything.

~~~
meowface
This sounds very interesting.

I understand this has been approved as "safe", and I doubt it would ever lead
to death or harm, but I wonder what the long term effects of frequent brain
stimulation could be. It could be good effects, but it could also be bad. I
don't believe any longitudinal study has been done on something like this.

How do you feel while you're using it?

~~~
icelancer
It doesn't seem to produce any acute effects. The research I've read before
buying this seems to indicate it's a chronic effect over time. Unfortunately I
don't have the patience to really do a sham/active test cycle, so I've been
just alternating pulse/continuous/random cycles 3-4 times per week, 10-20
minutes per session.

Anecdotally it seems to work well. My major reason for investing into tDCS was
to improve working memory, as I strongly believe I was rapidly deteriorating
in that realm despite near-abstinence from alcohol and other drugs. In that
regard, it seems to work well, but it could easily be a placebo effect from
wearing a cool helmet.

If I had to guess I'd say I'm 75% confident that foc.us has had a material
positive effect on my working memory and cognitive functions. I can't say I am
90-95% confident and I'm not sure I ever will be, since doing a rigorous test
is near impossible without a partner controlling the sham effects, and even
then it's for personal use and not a research study so to speak.

Not sure I would enthusiastically recommend it but the research out there
points in a solid - if not dramatic - direction.

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dsl
I'm glad it wraps around the front of the head. It's an amazing visual clue to
everyone else that this is the type of person you want to avoid a conversation
with.

~~~
Kiro
Funny comment but completely out of context since this is not something you're
supposed to wear in public.

~~~
moron4hire
So the picture of the one woman laughing is not having a conversation with
anyone, but actually having a psychotic episode?

~~~
rthomas6
She does appear to be in a padded room.

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barkingcat
To give some more information, these tech info and sdk pages are linked from
the faq site:

Tech specs:

[http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0348/7053/files/muse-
tech-s...](http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0348/7053/files/muse-tech-spec-
sheet.pdf?918)

SDK guide:

[https://sites.google.com/a/interaxon.ca/muse-developer-
site/...](https://sites.google.com/a/interaxon.ca/muse-developer-site/home)

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pacoverdi
Ooh, these sudden background color changes when scrolling really hurt my
brain!

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nebulous1
Just trying to read that site stressed me out. So they failed before they even
got started.

~~~
DavidSJ
Came here to say the same thing. Background colors and text changing without
interaction and unpredictable consequences of navigation actions makes for
quite the stressful experience.

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waterlesscloud
Reminds me of the Atari Mindlink.

[http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/consoles/2600/mindlink...](http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/consoles/2600/mindlink.html)

It worked via your forehead muscles.

Weirdly, I did consumer research testing for this thing as a teenager. They
showed us a video and then let us test it with River Raid (which was an
Activision game, go figure). Then one of those group sessions where they
interview you all with someone filming behind a two-way mirror. The Atari
thing did kinda work. Sorta. Anyway, it was a fun consumer research thing to
be paid for.

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gsteinb88
Is this at all different from the Melon[0] headband (a Kickstarter backed
project from ~a year ago, and half the price)?

[0] [http://www.thinkmelon.com/](http://www.thinkmelon.com/)

~~~
Breefield
You can get it today (or 3-4 weeks rather for order fulfillment).

~~~
gsteinb88
Fair; I'm more curious about the technical aspects / whether the doubled cost
translates into anything more than immediacy.

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caycep
The cynic in me feels that much of what they may be determining is from muscle
artifact...i've been looking through some (plain old clinical/medical 32
electrode) EEG data and even that has a lot of artifact. Although I suppose
it's some behavioral correlation - the more stressed out you are the more you
clench your muscles, I suppose.

At the very least if they've figured out how to get clean EEG w/o having to
use smelly EEG conductive goop, props to them!

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Serow225
The tagline (the brain sensing headband) is hilarious, I'd love to see the app
just respond Yes or No when a person puts the headband on ;)

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figital
To the best of my basic knowledge (and as mentioned here already) EEG isn't
going to be super-useful for a consumer device like this ... HEG (infrared
detection of oxygen levels) is a better option in terms of the ratio of easy
hookups to meaningful (mass market) results.

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mrbill
As of May 14th, they were telling backers (of which I'm one) that delivery is
delayed 4-6 weeks.

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kidsil
Very little (almost none?) information given.

Talk about the software connected to this..

Anyone spending 300$ for so little information?

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voltagex_
>Muse uses 7 finely calibrated EEG sensors to detect and measure the activity
of your brain. This sensory input is translated into real-time feedback on
your tablet or smart phone via Bluetooth. The result is a rich, real-time
audio and visual experience.

Calibrated for whom?

~~~
barkingcat
If you take a minute to read the information available

[http://www.choosemuse.com/pages/faq#using](http://www.choosemuse.com/pages/faq#using)

says that there is a 1 minute calibration period at the beginning of each use.

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5partan
This site demonstrates how the blink and marquee tag look in 2014

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sz4kerto
If we're at headache: the website gives me one.

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kalleboo
I think I'll stick to [http://www.necomimi.com](http://www.necomimi.com)

~~~
tiziano88
uhmm interesting _wiggle wiggle_

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n8m
I wonder if someone with migraine somehow could benefit from such a
device/training.

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andreasklinger
There should be meditation apps which support this.

Would love to train my focus more.

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sciguy77
Haven't there been a few of these on Indiegogo?

~~~
drodgers
This was one of them: [https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/muse-the-brain-
sensing-he...](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/muse-the-brain-sensing-
headband-that-lets-you-control-things-with-your-mind)

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waps
I wonder when the first real such product will exist. Like any system that
synchronizes by waves it can be modified by waves, probably much more than
you'd be able to do through chemicals.

So who will make the first heroine headband ? It will probably need outputs as
well as inputs though.

~~~
moron4hire
It seems to just be a biofeedback device. It tells you when you are
experiencing the right brain wave pattern so that you're consciously aware of
it, but you have to do the work of meditating to alter the state.

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glassdoor
Given that Jason has funded this startup, also invested in Calm (and I believe
in his intelligence), I should not doubt this product. This product has been
demonstrated first in the Launch Hackaton and it worked. Coming from the
signal processing background I'm always very suspicious how sensors can
preform such great filtering on the signal, but looking at the investor
profile makes me think there is something there.

