
3D Printer for less than $400 - yink
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pirate3d/the-buccaneer-the-3d-printer-that-everyone-can-use
======
iandanforth
Does the market need a cheaper printer, or a better one?

I've used 6 types of 3D printers. (Extrusion type, ABS or PLA) 3 from the
'consumer' grade and 3 from the 'pro' grade. Each of the consumer grade
printers was an exercise in frustration.

All the printers had ugly, clunky software, but the pro printers would almost
always make the thing I wanted.

The consumer printers I've tried take 3 or 4 failures to get 'set up' then a
few more tries to find the bugs most of the way through a build, and
eventually you might get one nice print. (After 4-6 hours)

The difficulty of getting a good print scales dramatically with the initial
footprint, and not as much with height.

I have no intention of actually buying a printer until I've seen one _work_
that I can afford. I can't manage the cost of most pro machines, but I can't
accept the headache of 'consumer' printers today.

I'm glad 3D printing is taking off, but I think we've reached an inflection
point where we need to go from _possible_ to _easy_.

~~~
brk
Not only that. General stories have led me to be HIGHLY skeptical of any
Kickstarter projects that make extreme claims. The more far-reaching the
claim, the lower the chances I would even consider investing. This one meets
my personal criteria for "I'd get a better return just burning the money, at
least then I'd get some heat."

------
masonhensley
From what I understand, margins are pretty good right now for ~$1k+ printers.
This however looks looks too polished for the price they are trying to
deliver. Reliable wifi connectivity, air filtration, fancy box, mobile apps,
cloud software, scale to weigh amount of filament in the hopper... hmmmm.

Existing sub $400 printers[see below] havent shipped in mass quantities yet
(well, besides the printrbot jr). Whoever gets it right first will become the
market leader for entry level printers.

If these guys ship all their preorders I'll buy one from them. Until then,
based on the research i've done, im planning on buying a printrbot jr to build
the parts for deltabot like this: <http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:34146>

Also, it is a little disingenuous for them to compare it to the makerbot
replitor which has ~4x the build volume[1].

================================

Makibox: $200-400 + shipping from asia (has only shipped a few beta units)

<http://makibox.com/products>

Printrbot simple: $299 + s/h

<http://printrbot.com/shop/printrbot-simple-beta/>

Printrbot Jr: $399 + s/h

<http://printrbot.com/shop/printrbot-jr/>

================================

[1]: Build area (28.5 _15.3_ 15.5)/ (15 _10_ 12) = 3.75

*Sorry I keep editing as I read more.

~~~
nnnnni
I'm pretty sure that Maki is well-known in the 3D printing community for being
a scammer. I'd stay away from the Makibox...

~~~
masonhensley
Ya, I shouldn't have included them. Can't edit that post now.

I had an post crowd funding order with them at some point in Q1 2013 and
canceled it after not seeing much progress.

------
mrbill
I've found that the more over-funded a Kickstarter project is, the higher the
probability that delivery of perks and products will be delayed or have
problems.

In my experience over the past two years, I've seen a number of projects that
I funded where the project creators got bogged down after deciding to add
features not originally specified at the time of funding, or continually
"tweak" features that then result in delay after delay.

Looking through my backing history, some examples: \- Honey Badger BBQ sauce:
first run had bacterial problems. Had to send out new batch months later.

\- Electricity | The Life Story of NIKOLA TESLA: "Oh, that perk you chose, is
out of production, if you want something equivalent to it you'll have to send
even more money". Nope.

\- L8 SmartLight The SoundLess Speaker: "Ooops, we forgot about CE/FCC
certification..."

\- NeuroDreamer sleep mask: "Oops, battery problem." Funded July '12, finally
shipping June '13?

\- Ouya: ETA was March '13, now it's 3 months later and I finally have a
tracking number.. we'll see.

\- HexBright - funded July '11, delivered Feb. '13.

\- IronBuds earbuds: Funded Aug. '11, sent "freebie" 3-piece earbuds Sep. '12,
still haven't sent the 6-piece IronBuds originally advertised as rewards.

The projects that I've seen with the quickest "fulfillment" and so forth?
Custom sets of playing cards.

~~~
bulltale
This is of course part of the risk associated with Kickstarter, projects may
fail or be delayed. As you seem to be an avid backer, do you feel satisfied
with the general delivery of projects you backed?

~~~
mrbill
Out of 56 projects backed over the past two years, so far, yes. Nobody has
outright "taken the money and run" (yet), and even on the long-delayed
projects, semi-regular updates kept people satisfied.

My biggest complaint is the lack of a better way to browse projects. There's
no way to say "Show me all the projects in the Technology category that have
not yet completed funding or are not over yet". I have to open up two tabs,
one for Technology Staff Picks, and one for More in Technology, and browse
through both of those to see what's currently active.

------
nakedrobot2
"If you want to use your own filament, you may do so without the cartridges"

GOOD! I dismiss other 3d printers immediately if they require some proprietary
filament cartridge.

Nice to see the price dropping on 3d printers. :-)

~~~
masonhensley
It looks like it is just a hopper instead of a proprietary spool[1]. I would
imagine you can use any 1.75mm filament in it.

[1] Example of a proprietary spool: <http://cubify.com/cube/store_parts.aspx>

~~~
druiid
Oh man, I've never heard of their printers before. The multi-color $2500
version looks really cool. Now if this Kickstarter project could do that for
$400 I would be all over it.

~~~
foobar456
so if you could get a $2500 product for $400 you would buy it?

~~~
redblacktree
You bet!

------
randallu
Printrbot Simple is $299. <http://printrbot.com/shop/printrbot-simple-beta/>

My son wants to get a 3d printer for his birthday (and he wants to print a lot
of airplanes with it) and I think it'd be a fun project to do together; to
learn about computer controlled robots and programming with OpenSCAD. I've
been reading the Printrbot forums and there's a bunch of work to do to get a
good print, which is fun, but probably won't get the best prints. I'm not sure
if I want a "consumer" or "hobbyist" printer given that it's going to be for
education and fun...

EDIT: Though having read the page, this looks totally awesome, and if I could
buy one right now then I probably would (instead of the printrbot).

------
heywoods
Their team sounds like they are just taking too much on at one time and
something is going to give in the way of quality or missing deadlines.
Reliable wifi connectivity, air filtration, product design, mobile apps, cloud
software... The list goes on.

With 3d printing being such a community focused arena, I think a focus on
building a platform where the community could hook into and develop on is the
way to go.

Haven't we learned anything from companies like Zynga? The user/community will
always be able to produce content and add value faster and cheaper than an in-
house team can.

Focus on the hardware, a robust platform to build onto, and some example
software (maybe an iOS app + PC app). Empower the community.

If you are going to go the Amazon route and win on margin you need to look at
the overhead costs you are going to incur in the form of technical debt
supporting all of these services. Offload the cost to the community.

------
ancarda
I stopped watching when I realised this printer is "cloud based" and "connects
wirelessly to their servers".

You know what? Call me when it can connect wirelessly to my computer, just as
my 2D printer does right now.

~~~
foxylad
It can - see the FAQ right at the bottom.

"We have a backup WiFi printing mode similar to Octoprint..."

~~~
ancarda
"backup mode"? That really seems to imply the main way to print is to send
everything through your servers.

------
bradleysmith
Seems as though it may require you to upload all G-code or .STL's to
Pirate3D's server for printing. Question addressing the issue was just asked
in the comments section.

IP questions as well as hardware behavior with spotty internet connection both
jump up as potential issues in my mind. I would imagine this is for a
standardized file preparation & troubleshooting service.

I wouldn't be interested in purchasing a 3D printer that I cannot directly
feed G-code or STL's to without an internet connection or someone else's
server getting involved.

[EDIT] I stand corrected, there is a 'backup' mode for printing without
involving their servers or network connection.

~~~
rosser
From the last FAQ at the bottom of the page:

 _Can I print without using the Pirate Cloud? I would like to make prints
offline...

Yes you may. We have a backup WiFi printing mode similar to Octoprint which
can be used in the event that zombies attack and all servers are destroyed._

That sounds to me like it can indeed be used offline.

~~~
bradleysmith
It indeed can be, thanks.

Having to use a backup mode to print something without sending the file to the
printer mfg. seems like needing to run a car in a backup mode to drive it
without sending your location to the mfg.

I understand a few reasons for wanting to do this, but I don't think it likely
to benefit the user.

------
scott_meade
It's clear Kickstarter has failed in trying to convince people that
"Kickstarter is not a store".

* "I would order this..." * "I wouldn't be interested in purchasing..." * "I often buy things [from Kickstarter] in the hundreds..." * "I have no intention of actually buying a printer..."

~~~
muyuu
Well, Kickstarter is hosting mostly pre-order businesses.

This project for instance is just being advertised as a cheap alternative to
things that already exist (claiming they don't would be a big stretch of the
implementation details).

Kickstarter would lose most of its business by not allowing these kind of
projects. People are more likely to bid in stuff they can easily figure out,
rather than completely novel and seemingly far-fetched ideas.

------
elmuchoprez
When it comes to consumer-grade 3D printing, it seems like all the focus on
developing a cheap machine and none of the focus is on figuring out something
that people actually want to print.

So you can print a spoon and a bowl... great. But I actually already have one
of those. If I ever have a need to print an endless supply of 1-inch square
cubes, I guess 3D printing is just the ticket.

I'm not saying they need to be able to print out a Ferrari before I'm
interested, but they need to be able to print something that is at least
mildly useful or interesting.

~~~
jfoutz
FWIW, don't eat from 3d printed stuff. The extrusion process creates this
wonderful internal maze for bacteria to thrive in.

A single use shot glass is probably ok. And, the ceramic prints you can get
now are food grade. But any home made abs or pla will inevitably get you sick,
because it can't be cleaned.

~~~
venomsnake
Throw it in a microwave. That is the way i sanitize my bamboo cutting boards
when there are tiny traces of meat inside after tenderizing. If that bacteria
have water molecules in them they will be dead. And if they don't - you may be
sick but you will get nobel prize in biology anyway.

~~~
jfoutz
you can also dip stuff in acetone to smooth it and perhaps enamel it to really
seal it up. I imagine there's a bunch of stuff you could do to improve the
odds.

However, treating a 3d printed spoon like any old metal spoon adds risk.

~~~
if_by_whisky
Acetone baths don't really work with PLA. Though I've seen it get beautiful
results with ABS.

------
grannyg00se
"Best layer resolution: 100microns"

So 0.1mm in z, but what about x and y? Or does the above imply that they are
all 0.1mm? Is that for the final product output or is that a nozzle head
movement resolution?

~~~
bradleysmith
From Pirate3D in comments:

"@Usman Glad you asked! What is the minimum printable detail? >> We can get
the facial features on printed figurines. Do you have any specific test print
in mind?

What is minimal wall thickness? >> We use a 0.4mm nozzle. We pjrint our single
shell objects at this thickness (0.4mm)."

So, 0.4mm min. XY resolution.

~~~
hwh
not exactly. That's merely the output nozzle diameter. "Resolution" is a bit
ambiguous here, but I think it would be fair to differentiate: Movement
resolution is 0.1mm, while "dot size" is 0.4mm. You can perfectly well "draw"
a 0.6mm long "line", but its minimum width is 0.4mm and you are restricted in
prolonging this width by just a tiny bit.

"Height" is another matter, since some hobbyist printers sometimes
intentionally "smear" a bit with the nozzle to smoothen flat layers.

That's the real art of 3D printing: bringing temperature, movement and
filament drive into the perfect balance. Having a fine _drive_ resolution is
important. But not only the resolution: You can drive stepper motors in
various ways, so they will go "hard" or "soft" or even "bounce back" after
movement a little bit. I've seen people doing hours, days and even weeks of
tests after tests on hobbyist devices.

~~~
bradleysmith
That's great stuff.

I've always wondered about variation in 'dot' and 'line' resolutions on
extrusion-based set-ups, particularly relating to head movement (speed) &
environmental conditions.

I've only had experience running (and servicing) an Objet Connex system that
uses printing heads & UV curable resin. It used a stainless steel bar w/ a
separate motor & cleaning system to 'flatten' each layer w/ each pass of the
print head. I've always wondered if there were any FDA equivalents... I guess
there is always the option to intentionally 'smear'.

The DIY 3D printing world is totally a trial-and-error art in my mind, as much
of making seems to be. I can't imagine the hours that have been spent on fine
tuning extrusion settings to produce good prints. I've always been spoiled by
prepped systems, but even that lets me appreciate all the aspects that can go
wrong.

------
evo_9
Man I just think naming this thing 'pirate' anything is a bad opening move. Or
is this by the PirateBay guys? Then I guess it sorta makes sense.

------
lifeguard
3D PLA printers are non-trivial to build, but very do-able at a hackerspace.

<http://reprap.org/wiki/Prusa_Mendel_%28iteration_2%29>

<http://sourceforge.net/projects/stl4su/files/>

<http://www.openscad.org/>

------
YZF
Slightly off topic but I built my own CNC 3 axis milling machine (X, Y and Z)
some years ago which is mostly collecting dust :-) It's pretty high precision,
solid, screw/stepper drives.

If I want to convert it into a 3d printer what would be my best/cheapest
route? I.e. getting a printing head and software setup to drive it all?

~~~
MBCook
I believe you'll be limited in feed rate (due to the weight of the axis), but
that's basically it. GCODE is used in 3D printers as well. You basically have
a 1/2 built reprap.

I think your plan is all you'd need to do.

------
jwatte
If price was the only concern, printrbot simple and junior would fly off the
shelves. 3d printing seems like it will be important in how some things are
made in the future, but anyone getting in now should do it out of interest,
not utility.

------
smoorman1024
Don't they only need to make one really good printer that can print other
printers? That should bring margins down.

Seriously though, as someone very interested in 3D printing this is awfully
tempting to back. The best option for me though seems still to be to use a
service that will allow you to send your model to a third party that will
print it on a professional 3D printer and send it back to you. Internet +
professional grade printing + next day delivery = just about as good.

~~~
muyuu
Most decent printers already do this, except for material constraints. You
cannot print the electro-mechanic parts, and things like rods and belts can be
printed but have sub-par performance that will lead to lesser precision
(inadequate rigidity or flexibility).

But yeah, a fair share of my 3d printer was printed by its same model. And
this indeed is why good 3d printers like the Prusas, Mendels, etc are getting
cheaper (this and cheaper filament prices). These are printers that provide
good precision and use parts that are mostly cheap to produce or directly
printable by a similar printer.

------
michael_h
This sounds a lot like the solidoodle, minus
$125,([http://store.solidoodle.com/index.php?route=product/product&...](http://store.solidoodle.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=56)).
Smaller build dimensions though.

~~~
grannyg00se
Thanks for that link. They have a better description of the output resolution.
By the sounds of things, these are going to provide pretty good output. I'm
still not sure I _need_ one, but if I had one beside me right now, I'd be
using it.

------
protomyth
I still wonder if 3D printing is going to be a one in every home thing or
something more akin to copiers (copy centers, businesses, and some
individuals)? I get the feeling the current direction to go would be more
Xerox than Apple.

~~~
Tloewald
I think it will be like printers -- a bit of both. Not everyone has or needs a
printer, and almost no-one owns an automatic book print/collate/binding
machine.

A good, small, cheap 3d printer may become just about compulsory for anyone
who, say, does home repairs, does any kind of professional design work, does
arts and crafts, and so forth.

------
kunai
The first thing that came into my head as soon as I saw it was:

    
    
      power
      mac
      g4
      cube
    

I think it needs a little more originality in the design department.

~~~
nwh
I'd forgotten that this was a kickstarter page for a second, and just saw a G4
Cube (there's a real one sitting on my desk too).

------
sdfjkl
"Add $100 to ship outside the US." Ouch. That's $150 for international
shipping total, plus import tax :(

------
marcamillion
Why does this sound almost too good to be true?

------
yoster
I would order this, but I have already heard about people getting ripped off
from kickstarter. I know that most of these people actually deliver what they
are supposed to on their end, but one bad apple can cause hesitation when it
comes to my hard earned cash.

~~~
gte910h
I don't buy things from kickstarter in the thousands unless it's a proven name
in a business. I often buy things in the hundreds, and have yet to be truly
stiffed (although delays are a certainty)

~~~
druiid
Same here. I generally look at the 'ship dates' on Kickstarter as kind of a
moving target with pretty much any project I have yet to encounter there. I
have yet to actually NOT get what they promised (eventually).

I would also find it hard to accept paying more than a few hundred for a
Kickstarter project. Anything more seems like asking for trouble.

