
Flat UI, mirrored - aviraldg
https://github.com/iurevych/Flat-UI
======
ameen
This whole episode has underlined a few major differences among developers and
(current) designers. Developers are more open, contribute code and discuss
about bettering each other.

While Designers seem secretive, ego-filled and seeking pointless exclusivity.

Eg: Developers: HackerNews / Github, etc Designers: DesignerNews / Dribble,
Forrst, etc.

Any designer that has been open about his work and process has become a legend
- Dieter Rams, Johnathan Ive, etc.

~~~
mnicole
I think that this is part of a bigger problem; a lot of people find design to
be "easy" in that it's subjective - Client A doesn't like your work but Client
B does. Can't even get a job in the field? No worries, people flock to
99Designs and Fiverr for cheap, tacky work that validates the crummy designer.
Working for someone with no morals? They'll show you some styles they like and
tell you they want it "exactly" like that, and if you want a paycheck, you'll
do it and _maybe_ you'll learn something about the technique that you can
translate into more original works. Some people just honestly don't think
they'll ever be caught or that they have a right to be "heavily-inspired"
because "you don't _own_ that".

<http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/> has been around for awhile, but
now with Pinterest, Dribbble and other resources, it's becoming a lot more
common to find the people who are making it difficult for designers to feel
like they can truly stand out.

Outside of flat copying/pasting code, it takes a little more to get it to be
functional. By nature, lots of developers are working in teams where
collaboration/pair programming is promoted to begin with. You work on projects
where it is essential to team up to figure out what's going on and what could
make it better. In order to ensure the project continues to move forward and
work, there needs to be a method to the madness that everyone understands. At
the agencies I've worked at, while everyone was a designer, we all had our
specialties and we didn't really work together much outside of talking about
general branding guidelines/techniques, etc.

In design, all it takes is having the same software to mimic something. So
when someone that is actually doing honest-to-goodness original, clever stuff
gets jacked by the hacks-at-large, it is easy to get defensive and want to
lock it down, particularly when you make your livelihood getting clients that
like your style and it is suddenly watered down by clones and you're not
getting paid to do what you made popular anymore. On Dribbble, I've seen it go
so far down the hole that people have both claimed the original artist was the
hack or said "Really reminds me of [hack]'s work.." on someone's copy of a
copy.

~~~
ameen
I think the problem is people confuse design and aesthetics a lot. Design is
inherently meant to be universal, and obviously if something is really well
designed it does make the product compelling and attractive.

Design cannot be copied, while aesthetics can.

One can copy a single design - say an icon for example, but they cannot copy
the original designer's workflow and thought-process in coming up with the
final design, it is and always will be unique to each individual. A copy-cat
can't come up with an entire icon-set after copying a single icon, whereas the
original designer can. And I seriously doubt good designers not getting work
due to scummy photocopiers grabbing up jobs.

In regards to 99Designs & Fiverr:

The only requirement of a client on there is that it needs to look good. And
it's easy to make something look good, but does that work with their overall
product? Does the product even have a design language of its own?

And usually the clients are low-budget shops which even if they wanted to
can't afford a decent designer. The same problem exists for developers as well
- Do we see top developers crying foul about their code being re-used?

~~~
mnicole
I totally agree with you re: design vs. aesthetics (even went on a tangent
about it some weeks ago).

> And I seriously doubt good designers not getting work due to scummy
> photocopiers grabbing up jobs.

Knowing some very well-known designers, I can assure you that they are losing
work. Big companies reach out to these artists about their style and how much
it would cost, and after not hearing anything for a few months, these
companies magically show up with a new ad campaign or line of t-shirts that
looks all-too-familiar. I know a good illustrator that works for a company
where he is asked to copy works created by his own friends in the industry.
Not all of them are bad at what they do, which is why they are hired instead.
It's slimy work, but if you're good at it and can churn them out, it makes for
easy income until you can break out on your own. I would wager that a lot of
designers begin their careers this way. Some eventually make their way out of
it to stand on their own two feet while others get comfortable with the fact
that they are essentially paid to plagiarize based on what's hot right now.

> Do we see top developers crying foul about their code being re-used?

This is irrelevant, but when we're talking about front-end stuff, yes. We just
saw a witch hunt here the other week. But as far as the rest it's not really
comparable; developers are being paid to come up with solutions that work
within a set of rules we all have to adhere to given the technologies
available. Designers are being paid to come up with solutions that are
intentionally unique. Code is on the web as-is, and outside of not giving
credit where credit should be due, there's not really much you can do about
someone copying a few lines that are part of languages that can only be
written effectively so many different ways. With visuals, there really are no
rules; how I created my illustration may have been an entirely different way
than someone who copied it did, but it doesn't matter because the end product
is the same. As we progress into using SVGs for artwork instead of images,
it'll be interesting to see how these worlds collide and if we begin diffing
code on a large scale to find copycats rather than use tools like TinEye.

While this means that remixing pieces will be easier and I hope that's the
direction we go (and embrace), it still means the originals are a simple copy
and paste away from being stolen in their full vector glory. Can't wait!

~~~
ameen
While there are cases (like you mentioned), it's also the designer's part to
hustle a bit. If one has the skills and the know-how, they can be unstoppable
if they want to.

Tangential to your example: I knew an illustrator who used to sketch animals
in a cartoon-style, but she kept at it and eventually got hired by Rovio. But
she didn't get the role just for her skills, she got it because she hustled -
made an Angry Birds' fan-video and made a physical copy of it and mailed it to
Rovio.

Talent alone won't help in succeeding, only persistence will. Heck, talent can
be acquired, persistence on the other hand, mostly isn't.

Also, original art/design will always get credit if it is promoted properly.

~~~
mnicole
This has nothing to do with the hustle; this is post-hustle - that's why these
companies are even reaching out to the artists directly. The ones that know
exactly who they're trying to copy are the worst offenders.

> Also, original art/design will always get credit if it is promoted properly.

This is simply not true, which is why Twitter is often a platform used for
calling people out.

------
asdfaoeu
Why not just respond to the initial dcma rather than playing a game of cat and
mouse. No one is going to use it while it has dubious copyright status anyway.

~~~
ceejayoz
They did.
[https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2013-03-06-LayerV...](https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2013-03-06-LayerVault-
counternotice.md)

Mirroring it while Github drags their feet reenabling seems fair enough.

~~~
subsystem
Github per the DMCA needs to wait 10 days before reenabling it.

"[...] replaces the removed material and ceases disabling access to it not
less than 10, nor more than 14, business days following receipt of the counter
notice, unless its designated agent first receives notice from the person who
submitted the notification under subsection (c)(1)(C) that such person has
filed an action seeking a court order to restrain the subscriber from engaging
in infringing activity relating to the material on the service provider’s
system or network."

~~~
MereInterest
Is there a (non-malevolent) reason for this clause? It seems to be something
put in to deliberately slow down proceedings and apply a penalty to the
accused regardless of what happens.

~~~
px1999
It's there to deter fake counternotices by giving the original issuer time to
seek an injunction / file a lawsuit I think.

~~~
cm127
Are there penalties for being wrong or mistaken? It seems pretty one-sided.

~~~
ZoFreX
Not for mistaken so much but if you can prove mal intent, yes there are
penalties.

------
robinjfisher
I'd be interested to know about the distinction between US and UK copyright
here.

In the UK, copyright will only vest in something if it is an "original
work"[1]. Taking LayerVault's claim, there are only so many ways one can
represent a "settings" option and the use of gear symbols is so common as to
mean that no copyright attaches simply because it is not original. How much
skill and effort was invested in thinking about what symbols to use?

[1] <http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-applies/c-original.htm>

~~~
ceejayoz
It's the same here. <http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-
general.html#protect>

"Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of
authorship..."

A specific representation of gears could be copyrighted. The general concept
of gears-as-icon can't be.

------
RaphiePS
Looks like the Streisand Effect
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect>)!

------
lancefisher
It's amusing that there are 188 forks now.

I expected a fork, but not from the author. I don't know that this is a good
idea since it could cause a termination of his account. I think that is at
github's discretion.

I'd never heard of LayerVault before, but based on what I've seen of the
"infringing" design which amounts to 3 similar (but different) icons, they are
clearly wrong to issue the DMCA. This is what I'll remember about LayerVault.
Not all press is good actually.

I'm glad that @iurevych is filing a counter notice, but what is too bad, is
that links from press like Smashing Magazine and CSS Tricks are not working.
This will hurt FlatUI.

I really hope that LayerVault drops it at this point, but if they pursue a
lawsuit, I would like to see it fought.

------
_puk
When I saw the story first, I half expected someone to come up with a 'whack-
a-mole' script.

Every time the original repo disappears, mirror it with a variant of the same
name.

Not condoning, and like to get you banned from Github, but this was always
going to happen.

------
arb99
What is the deal with this?

It was posted here <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5321603> a few days
ago but that link is now dead. is this the original one on github or
something?

~~~
aviraldg
The original was on DesignModo's Github account, but was taken down due to an
unjustified DMCA takedown request from LayerVault. Github's DMCA policies
prevent that from being made available again within 10 days.

This version is hosted on iurevych's (the original creator of Flat UI) Github
account.

~~~
jasonwatkinspdx
It's not github policy, it's explicitly part of the law.

------
pyalot2
Ah the sweet sweet workings of the streisand effect. This new fork now has
more forks and stars than the original ever had.

How's that DMCA thing working out for you LayerVault?

------
alexchamberlain
Not exactly the right solution to a DMCA takedown notice...

------
nsxwolf
So, to see an example, I have to build it and deploy an application? I don't
understand this tendency of posting links to a github page that presents no
screenshots or examples.

~~~
hunvreus
There is a gh-pages branch, which means it's a Github page:
<http://iurevych.github.com/Flat-UI/>.

------
lucaspiller
Perhaps more interesting is the 84 forks (other mirrors). Is GitHub going to
remove them all?

------
muratmutlu
I love the drop down menu, has anyone come across any tutorials to create
something similar?

------
dutchbrit
Is this the correct thing to do? Wasn't it taken down for a reason?

~~~
mistercow
Sort of. It was taken down because LayerVault filed a DMCA notice, but you
don't have to prove anything to file a DMCA notice (and yes, this is a broken
system).

~~~
dutchbrit
Well, I agree - I once filed a DMCA notice, but in that situation, the person
actually copied some of my icons, instead of being deeply inspired. While I do
agree there is a difference, there is a fine line - I do agree however that in
this case, that the majority could easily be fixed. Even though it's not
exactly a 1 on 1 copy, it's too inspired from the examples I saw, mainly being
the design news icon.

~~~
mistercow
IANAL, but I don't think that "too inspired" is really the sort of thing that
is covered by the DMCA, and in any case, you can't file a notice to take down
the whole project just because you think three icons are derived from your
work.

As for the newspaper icon, it has already been pointed out that LayerVault's
version is far more similar to this icon from The Noun Project
(<http://thenounproject.com/noun/newspaper/>) than it is to the Flat UI
version.

The other claims I've seen are that the gears icon (not even close), the
"talking head" (not even close), and the color palette (not something you can
copyright).

More importantly, this fork doesn't seem to contain any of those disputed
icons, so I don't think there's anything improper here.

~~~
dutchbrit
Upvote for the Noune Project part!

LayerVault might of bought a Noune Project icon license however, but still,
it's all too coincidental, even when you look at the colour scheme.

You can't copyright a shape & colour combinations (mainly squares) however, so
it does make it tougher to call something a huge 'rip'

~~~
mistercow
I did consider that they might have bought a license from TNP, but if they
had, that would not grant them _exclusive_ rights to the icon.

Let's suppose they had bought such a license, and let's call the shared
similarity between the LV icon and the FUI icon "X". Let's also suppose that X
is copyrightable. The problem is that X is _also_ shared by the TNP icon. So
LV wouldn't have ownership of X, and wouldn't have any right to file a DMCA
notice based on it.

------
rogerclark
divs with border radius

------
pramodxyle
even original bootstrap goes flat in its new rc..!

------
akakey
can I fork DMCA?

~~~
stblack
<https://github.com/github/dmca.git>

------
webmech
fork it! they can't stop us all!

------
holms
if I were you, i'd sue them, or would send some request to the right place,
for taking invalid actions towards you.

------
momchenr
Ha, this is so baller.

------
the1
in the end, designmodo paid layervault for DMCA takedown notice for publicity.

now err body's gon use flat ui. great marketing.

~~~
ceejayoz
That's quite the accusation. Any evidence?

------
nailer
From the images we've seen all side by side this seems to be a rip of someone
else's work.

Nicking people stuff isn't what Hacker News is about. I've had articles I've
sent hours writing and issued DMCA takedown notices, just as the same as if
someone stole my code.

To take down a site using your stuff, you use a DMCA takedown notice.

\- That doesn't mean you're abusing the DMCA

\- That doesn't mean that the party that nicked your stuff is in the right.

UPDATE: to those discussing individual works, the issue is that the icons are
not individually similar but rather that the whole set copies design elements
from the other.

If FlatUI has picked more sources to be inspired from, they'd be in a better
position.

~~~
Retric
Your assuming someone nicked your stuff. With millions of sites out there are
a lot of layouts, icons, and whatnot that look similar that are not in fact
copy's. Worse designers are rarely the type of people that think of the
(millions) ^ 2 possibilities.

Honestly, unless your talking about a large file with a lot of entropy your
probably in the wrong sending a DMCA take-down request.

~~~
variousbagels
>Your assuming someone nicked your stuff

you're

>Honestly, unless your talking about a large file with a lot of entropy your
probably

you're, you're

~~~
holms
mate and that's actually DOES NOT changes his point =) grammar Nazies should
stop reading hacker news

~~~
to3m
I suppose spelling it like that is how you work round Godwin's law.

