
A rise in vegetarian options leads customers to embrace meat-free meals - elorant
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02934-5
======
_Microft
The dish mentioned sounds far better than what is usually served as vegetarian
food at canteens and restaurants. Quite often they offer just a compilation of
side-dishes to have _something_ vegetarian on their menu. (Dumblings with red
cabbage and - wait for it - _gravy_ from roasting meat is a widespread menu
offer for vegetarians in southern Germany. Not sure if it counts as
_vegetarian option_ though).

Once people notice that vegetarian food does not _have to be_ heaps of
vegetables or to taste bland, they're far more open to actually try it. I
think it's rather a problem with chefs not being familiar with vegetarian
recipes than people actually not liking it at all.

~~~
jedimastert
POV: Omnivore with a (previously) vegetarian spouse. We generally ate veg @
home

One of my biggest issues with modern veg diets is all of the veg food trying
to masquerade as other food. Soy bacon does not taste like, or taste as good
as, real bacon. Tofu and Boca burgers do not taste like actual meat. But tofu
and the like can taste amazing _on its own merit_. It's an ingredient with
it's own flavors and textures, so put it where it can do some good.

And don't get me started on veg patties. I have a (very) meat loving father
who got completely hooked on Boca burgers while on Weight Watchers. He'll
still eat them on a regular basis, even though he looooves regular burgers,
just because they're delicious.

In my mind, you don't have to try to pretend to be something else to be good,
especially veg sandwich patties. Latkes are amazing. Refried beans bound
together with eggs, breaded and deep fried sounds amazing. Don't put yourself
next to something else and force a comparison. Just be tasty.

~~~
bootlooped
Mock meat foods are a great way for restaurants to easily serve vegetarian or
vegan plates with a simple substitution. They also make a massive number of
recipes accessible to vegetarians or vegans. They also lower the barrier to
entry for meat eaters to convert to eating less meat. I think they're really
great in many ways.

Downsides: they are highly processed, currently expensive, and of questionable
nutritional value.

~~~
JackRabbitSlim
Trying to offer "bridge" foods that are vegetable versions of normal dishes
_doesn 't_ help. It never is as good, at best it's "yeah...its OK." So you
have only re-enforced the idea that vegetarian food will never be quiet as
good as the "real thing".

On the off chance it _is_ exactly like the meat its pretending to be then all
your saying is "See? All you have to do is spend more for exactly the same
thing!"

I might try a "Quenwopper" bowl for 9 bucks if they offered it at BK. I'm not
spending 9 bucks on a burger who's entire selling point is that it tastes
exactly like the cheaper burger.

~~~
jlmorton
Kind of a shor-term view, no? The Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat patties are
significantly closer to a beef-life flavor than past patties, and they're
improving at a quick pace.

They may be more expensive now, but it's pretty likely that economies of scale
will reduce the price of plant-based meat substitutes, while pretty unlikely
that Tyson Foods is going to quickly find a cheaper way to raise a cow.

~~~
myu701
I rolled into Burger King and bought a normal whopper and a Impossible whopper
for the express stated purpose of being able to say the thing I was pooh-
poohing (meatless burger!? let's be serious, I said to myself) was something I
had tried before.

Besides being slightly too burnt from the flame grilling of a high school kid,
it tasted delicious. Quite comparable to the usual fast food burger in terms
of taste, look, and texture. I would not recommend it as a steak replacement
though. Could be hamburger helper if it retained its form when boiled.

I will opt for it again when available, admittedly I eat at BK approx. once a
year.

------
danShumway
There's never been a better (ie. easier) time to be a vegetarian.

I switched a little while ago, and was expecting restaurant meals to be a huge
pain. In actuality I rarely have to worry about it, and even though I'm a
picky eater most decent restaurants now have enough options that I can find
something that I like.

On top of that, the increased diversity of vegetarian options that restaurants
are offering has been really helpful in expanding my pallet in general. It's
more likely when eating out that something I've never tried before catches my
eye and I discover that I really like it when prepared a certain way. Eating
out more (within reason) can be an effective way to get yourself to try new
foods -- there are a lot of vegetables that I've gotten accustomed to that I
used to heavily avoid.

------
SubuSS
I would highly suggest vegetarian food seekers to try out cuisines that have
worked out vegetarian options over time (Indian / Thai) rather than the
options that try to substitute a green salad.

I also have a HUGE resistance for stuff like Beyond meats - When I want meat,
I really don't want to try out synthetic haeme or whatever that makes this
taste like meat - at least for the next 15-20 years when we figure out what
cancer it causes. A bean burger is an awesome meal, so is milk based products
(pizza et al). Even better are a combination of pita bread + hummus and so on.

It is very much possible to start off small - eat real vegetarian x days of a
week or move to meat only for lunch or only dinner and you can go from there
in small steps. You can even switch to white meat to start with. A planned
setup like that actually makes me enjoy the meat more when I get it. A good
reuben is extra good when it happens only once a month.

I also don't really buy we have to be fully vegetarian to see all the benefits
(I grew up vegetarian, picked up meat eating and I would like to think I walk
a reasonable line).

~~~
WorldMaker
> to try out synthetic haeme or whatever that makes this taste like meat

The synthetic hemoglobin is Impossible's (patented) technique to make it
_cook_ like meat, because it's fake red blood cells. Long story short, it's a
slightly differently different way to (kind of) ferment soy beans, and while
it may not be as old as Soy Sauce, after as long as Asian cultures have been
(ab)using the soy bean, Impossible's process would be quite hard pressed to
find some new cancer to cause.

The rest is just mostly various combinations of plants (beans, plant fibers,
spices), just as bean burgers and veggie burgers have always been.

Though don't let me stop your skepticism. Beyond / Impossible are useful beef
substitutes and probably aren't healthier than beef, but they probably aren't
any worse than beef either.

------
DanCarvajal
I'm definitely part of this trend.

My favorite carhop burger joint (Hire's Big H, SLC) makes their own veggie
patty that to me is their best thing on their menu. It's really crafted to be
a flavorful/textural experience without being "fake meat". I'm not even
vegetarian and it's been my go to there for a while now.

This was all before I had a grasp of the environmental impact of meat
production.

~~~
dhimes
Twenty years ago there was a restaurant in Bethesda that made its own veggie
burger. To my taste, it was the best thing on the menu. And I only started
experimenting with veggie/vegan/pescetarian cuisine a couple years ago (I go
pescetarian a couple days a week).

------
chousuke
I am not vegetarian, but I still sometimes choose the vegetarian option
because _it tastes good_. I'm not very surprised by more people finding tasty
vegetarian options when more are made available.

~~~
coldpie
> I'm not very surprised by more people finding tasty vegetarian options when
> more are made available.

This is a bit off-topic, but this always bothers me. Just because we're
discussing a topic doesn't mean we're surprised by it. Some data being new and
worth discussing doesn't mean it broke from expectations.

You can see the same thing in this other thread:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21146856](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21146856)
No one is clutching their pearls, folks. We're just having a conversation.

~~~
jraph
You might be right, but I would understand "I'm not surprised" as a way to
introduce an opinion or an analysis, rather than as something like "It would
be dumb to be surprised".

Though to be fair, I had a similar reaction when I saw the title as the
commenter of your link (more like, "Well, no shit!").

I still find the conversation and the points of view of everyone here
interesting, I would not be here otherwise. I would be particularly interested
by someone who would indeed be surprised and offer an analysis I could not
see.

------
grawprog
>When the proportion of meatless options doubled from one to two of four
choices, overall sales remained about constant. But sales of meat-containing
meals dropped, and sales of vegetarian meals, such as “wild mushroom, roasted
butternut squash and sun blushed tomato risotto with parmesan”, rose 40–80%.

So they cut the available meat options and doubled the available vegetarian
options and find it surprising they sold more vegetarian food? Making things
unavailabile does tend to have that effect.

~~~
mikepurvis
I often choose the vegetarian option when eating out simply because I know how
to grill a steak or roast some chicken at home— I can make those meals just as
well as they can, and for half the cost or less.

When I see multiple vegetarian meal options, that's a signal that the chef
isn't just doing a low effort protein swap-out but is actually offering
something tasty and interesting, and I'm interested to try it.

~~~
shantly
Huh. I do the opposite—I order meat out (not always, but sometimes) and rarely
cook it at home. I _can_ and every now and then _do_ make good dishes with
meat, but find it fussy, messy, and very expensive if you screw it up. Plus I
have trouble with the leftovers (leftover chicken almost always has a really,
really bad flavor to me, for example).

Veggies have their own PITA issues, of course. I just prefer to put up with
those rather than those _and_ meat's issues, in my home kitchen & pantry.

[EDIT] another factor's that I don't really care for most cheap meats. Ground
beef? Eh, no. Shredded chicken from a can? God no. Cheap fish available this
far from the ocean? I'll pass. Carne asada (expensive these days), a great
steak, good sushi? Hell yes. But I'll leave it to the pros so I don't wreck an
expensive piece of meat, no more often than I get that particular craving.

~~~
mikepurvis
That's fair. I'm mostly cooking on the weekends, for a family of five, so
doing something like a 4lb roast chicken with potatoes and veggies is a pretty
economical and straightforward meal. Everyone gets their fill, but there's
enough left for at least one lunch portion or maybe even a second dinner like
chicken Caesar wraps.

------
reportgunner
This research is pretty laughable. Made by one university, 3 locations -
ages/demographics are not represented properly at all, the cultural
environment is the same (one university). The ratio of veg doubled (0.25 to
0.5) while the ratio of meat fell 33 % (0.75 to 0.5). Also it doesnt at all
mention the in volume of the eaters: What if the people who predominantly eat
meat simply stopped going to the cafeterias as often since the food choice
became less interesting ?

They also say the sales rose 40%-80% - why is the range so big (and is it even
reliable then)?

~~~
damq
Almost all studies about vegetarianism are born of an agenda to promote
vegetarianism.

To a meat eater, studying the effects of eating an all vegetable diet is the
same as studying the effects of walking backwards everywhere you go: it's not
something we'd ever consider doing so we see no value in studying the effects
of doing it. Furthermore, meat eaters do not care if other people don't want
to eat meat. As such, most of the people conducting studies about
vegetarianism are people who think eating meat is immoral. Their motivation to
conduct the study is to stop other people from eating meat.

~~~
nefitty
What blocks you from even considering the option?

It's a little strange to see a comment so boastful of a lack of intellectual
curiosity on HN.

~~~
justsubmit
> What blocks you from even considering the option?

Human biology, perhaps? After all, haven't we evolved over thousands of years
to be omnivores?

> It's a little strange to see a comment so boastful of a lack of intellectual
> curiosity on HN.

In other words, according to you, people who aren't interested in being
vegetarian lack intellectual curiosity. It's a little strange to see a comment
so boastful of intellectual intolerance on HN...

~~~
nefitty
It's not necessarily the lack of interest, but instead the absolute choice to
not consider it at all.

In terms of biology plenty of humans thrive on vegan and vegetarian diets.

~~~
distant_hat
I know plenty of vegetarians and a few vegans. While vegetarians do relative
okay especially if they eat eggs, the vegans are forever talking about
supplements and are fatigued and look like 60 by the time they are in their
40s.

~~~
KitDuncan
You have no idea what you are talking about. Those are anecdotes and it sounds
like you're biased.

There are plenty of athletes on a vegan diet. Sure we take B12, but plenty of
omnivores are deficient as well. The only reason you get more of that is
because it's supplemented to livestock.

My blood tests came back absolutely stellar and I eat whatever I want most
days. When it comes to sports, I can easily compete with my omnivore friends.

~~~
distant_hat
Just describing what I see. I don't disagree that there may be a few people
who do fine with it, in general, it is a huge overhead to make sure you are
getting enough as a vegan. As a omnivore you can grab that steak and go.

------
elektor
Speaking from personal experience, I've been eating a lot more plant-based
meals now that Beyond and Impossible Beef are available in grocery stores. I
wouldn't say I'm completely vegetarian but I'm 60% there.

~~~
merpnderp
I was so excited about the Impossible Burger at Burger King. But I made the
mistake of ordering it and a regular Whopper for comparison. I tried the
Impossible Burger and thought wow, this is amazingly delicious. Then I took a
bite of a Whopper and realized that the Impossible Burger will never be able
to replace this. You could make the world's best vegetarian burger and some
discount meat from the local dollar store would still taste better.

~~~
Robotbeat
I have not had that experience. Impossible Whopper has been amazing to me.

Additionally, Burger King definitely doesn't make the best Impossible Burger
(and not every Impossible Whopper tastes the same--like regular burgers,
there's slight variation in quality depending on who is at the grill). I had
it at a local restaurant, and it was one of the best burgers I've ever had.

------
perkorounded
I've been on a vegan diet the last 11 years. Starting while still living with
my parents at 17, it forced me to try new foods and get better at cooking.
Before I was mostly on a junk diet of fast food and frozen meals before
changing my diet. I lost some weight and felt my energy levels increase. I
mostly attribute this to having to skip on most fast food and sweets.

During the initial few years I ate a lot of meat and dairy replacements along
with accidentally vegan junk food like oreos and the purple bag doritos. But
around the 4 yr mark this stuff kinda lost its allure - too processed and
artificial tasting (imo) to be foods I eat frequently.

The staples I landed on are just basic food: tofu, beans, rice, bread,
noodles, vegetables, and fruit. I found not trying to reproduce American food
improved my diet, was cheaper, and easier to share with people who don't
follow a vegan diet. A vegetable curry is a lot easier to sell to someone
you're sharing dinner with than something with a bunch of meat/dairy
replacements. And it just tastes better.

I'll mix it up and have fake meat sometimes or indulge in junk like candy or
chips. But my point is following a vegan diet is quite easy once you adjust
your staples a bit. Also just go easy on yourself, if you're eating out the
bread might have a little whey in it but I personally think that's okay. I'd
rather just eat that than make it difficult for the people I'm dining with or
to bug the server to go check. Eating 95% vegan for a lifetime is clearly
better than burning out. This was a lesson that took a few years to learn as I
was a pretty annoying vegan the first few years when I was in my teens/early
20's.

~~~
veganjay
vegan for 25 years here. not a competition - just wanted to say it has gotten
a lot easier over the years. when i first went vegan, not many people even
knew what vegan meant. and many grocery stores carry items that i could
previous only find at food co-ops (vegan cheeses, vegan ice creams, and so
on).

also with apps and websites like Happy Cow
([https://www.happycow.net](https://www.happycow.net)) it is even easier to
find vegan food on the go.

------
A4ET8a8uTh0
I always found vegan movement oddly close to religion. At my work, guy drives
a car that has a custom VEGAN plate. I am not sure why I should know his
dietary restrictions. I don't like liver. Do I add bumper indicating my
dislike for liver consumption? Can someone rationalize it for me? Is it like
sub-culture?

~~~
sterkekoffie
Veganism is not a dietary preference, it's a system of ethics. If there had
been vanity plates in the 1910s there probably would have been some that said
5UFFR4G3, too.

Veganism extends to all modes of consumption, not just food--for example,
vegans don't buy leather or animal-tested makeup. Side note, to reduce
confusion like yours, some people use 'plant-based' specifically to describe
vegan food. People are vegan, products are "suitable for vegans".

~~~
vonmoltke
This one is apparently OK with eradicating rats:
[https://gothamist.com/news/revolting-dead-rat-soup-future-
ny...](https://gothamist.com/news/revolting-dead-rat-soup-future-nyc-pest-
control)

~~~
sterkekoffie
Shooting a bear that's charging at you isn't non-vegan, and by the same token,
pest control isn't necessarily non-vegan either. This is the de facto
definition of veganism:

> Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible
> and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for
> food, clothing or any other purpose.

And of course, what's possible and practicable is subjective.

------
andrewfromx
i really think the way to getting millions to change their meat eating ways is
one animal at a time. Don't tell a typical meat eater give up all meat. Tell
them give up cows only. Then pigs. Then maybe stop there for a while. Exist on
chicken and seafood and that would change the world. Just place cows and pigs
in same category as dogs and cats and all of a sudden, wow, huge win for
everyone.

~~~
mikekij
This extends to individual meals too. Lots of meat eaters feel some desire to
be vegetarian, but have a particular dish or two they “can’t live without.”
The environmental and health impacts of even avoiding meat in 50% of meals
would be enormous.

There’s no gold star for being a “perfect” vegetarian. Just do what you can.

~~~
andrewfromx
i've been doing no cows and pigs since 2015 and the hardest part is the social
aspect of going out with friends and someone announcing to the group, OH HEY
THIS PERSON OVER HERE DOES NOT EAT 100% OF EVERYTHING. And all of a sudden you
are the lame one that isn't "open to trying new things" or "fun and
spontaneous" and will just pop anything from any dish into your mouth and say,
oh wow, yum. And yet, the same people would freak out if cat or dog was on
menu.

~~~
saagarjha
> i've been doing no cows and pigs since 2015 and the hardest part is the
> social aspect of going out with friends and someone announcing to the group,
> OH HEY THIS PERSON OVER HERE DOES NOT EAT 100% OF EVERYTHING

It sounds like you’re lacking some supportive and understanding friends :(
Would they say the same if you had a food allergy?

------
jacknews
The thing is, you don't need to be entirely vegetarian to have a big impact on
your environmental footprint, etc.

Many meals can do well, or even be improved, by having 'much less meat'. After
all, meat has been a sign of prosperity for a long time, and so it's been
stuffed into many recipes that probably don't need it, or that need much less
of it than curretly practiced.

'less-itarian', if you like.

~~~
Majestic121
There's actually a word for what you describe : flexitarian

~~~
LOLTITTIES
I thought flexitarian is a vegetarian who sometimes eats meat. I think
reducetarian is what the term is for eating less in general.

------
Pfhreak
I went vegetarian about two years ago, and it's been way easier than I thought
it would be. Plenty of meal variety when you draw ideas from across the globe.

------
ltbarcly3
The article doesn't go into enough details for us to evaluate the study.

Some possible scenarios:

They offered meat-free options that mirrored the meat-containing options. For
example, they had beef lasagna and as an alternative vegetarian lasagna. If
this dramatically increased the selection of vegetarian options it seems like
a good indicator that there was a preference for meat free options that wasn't
being satisfied.

They offered meat-free lasagna as an additional option, independent of the
other available choices (so no 'regular' lasagna was offered at the same
time). If this increased selection of vegetarian options, it tells us
absolutely nothing. It's quite possible that many people 'felt like lasagna'
that day, and that was that. To phrase this scenario another way: they could
increase the selection of vegetarian options to 100% by eliminating all meat
from the cafeteria, but this wouldn't demonstrate any preference for
vegetarian by the customers.

Since whoever wrote this article didn't mention the methodology, my guess is
that the methodology is more like my second scenario, which is to say that it
was not a meaningful study but they don't want to say that because they are
pushing an agenda. Either that or it's incompetence, I think Hanlon's Razor
attaches at this point.

------
dmje
30 year vegetarian here: I'd say in the UK we've had good vegetarian options
for maybe 10 years. Before that it was "have a crappy tomato sauce with pasta"
as a terrible substitute for whatever the fleshies were eating. Now, pretty
much everywhere in the UK has reasonable non-meat options.

What has also happened though is that low end food places - pubs, cafes, other
"beige food" eateries [burgers, chips, you know, beige] - have become
extraordinarily more expensive, whereas really great places have only
incrementally increased prices. So you'd probably pay £15 for a crappy fish
and chips in a pub, but say £18 for a really great dish in a restaurant. This
has been a bit of a leveller - but also alongside this you find exponentially
better veggie food in a good restaurant, whereas pubs are all still a bit
"meat and two veg"...

------
seanwilson
Not sure how good the study is but I wouldn't find it surprising.

I can understand how people find it hard to stay vegetarian when e.g. the only
vegetarian main on a restaurant menu is risotto (this happens comically
often!).

Meat eaters tend to say "what would you even eat?!" because they're used to
seeing menus with 90% meat options.

------
DoreenMichele
I'm kind of a food snob. I don't eat burgers. They're horrible. I don't eat
hotdogs. They're horrible.

Reading this article tempts me to want to say "Newsflash: Tasty food sells!"
but I'm sure that would be flagged to death as low content snark. Also, it's
possibly stupid saying anything at all because people who eat stuff like
burgers and hot dogs will get all mad when you give your honest opinion that
it isn't exactly gourmet health food.

I often go with, say, French fries and apple pie because it's the least worst
option on a burger-based menu. When they offer chicken as an alternative to
burgers, it's typically also deep fried etc. It's only very recently that some
burger joints genuinely offer tasty, healthy alternatives to their bland and
unhealthy ground beef patty on nasty circular white bread staple food item.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _I 'm sure that would be flagged to death as low content snark. Also, it's
> possibly stupid saying anything at all because people who eat stuff like
> burgers and hot dogs will get all mad when you give your honest opinion that
> it isn't exactly gourmet health food._

Tastes differ between people. I eat burgers and hotdogs because they're tasty,
and their tastiness for me is _inversely proportional_ to the amount of
vegetables you put into them. I rarely eat out, but if I want to grab a
hotdog, I only do so in places where I can get a bun, sausage, ketchup and
mustard, and exactly zero of all the other dressings.

And from my POV, vegetables and fruits tend to ruin the taste of everything. I
just don't like them, period. I accept some in appropriate context - common
mushrooms, onions and peppers when the food is salty, carrots and apples and
maaaaybe tomatoes on the sweet end.

I can't tell you why I am like this, though I am very curious about what
shapes one's tastes. I eat plenty of healthy stuff, but I'd love to make
myself somehow _like_ it, - all I've managed so far is to not feel completely
miserable every time I eat a healthy meal.

~~~
bfdm
I also used to feel largely this way, but it turns out my parents just weren't
good at cooking tasty vegetables.

I encourage you to seek out an adventure by trying a vegetarian restaurant
where the chefs know how to cook veggies. Truly breathtaking the difference in
experience.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Thank you. I'll try. FWIW, my wife recently started experimenting with
vegetarian recipes and so far, results are much tastier than I expected.

------
subpixel
Missing is how meat-free options will generate new business.

I'm not a vegetarian but I am the sort of person who would never eat a Whopper
b/c it's garbage meat. Hadn't eaten in BK for probably a decade.

I ate an Impossible Whopper and I'm gonna be eating BK a lot more often.

~~~
chongli
_I ate an Impossible Whopper and I 'm gonna be eating BK a lot more often._

This is the core reason why Impossible Foods is a darling right now. The big
fast food chains have been losing customers for years due to concerns over
health and obesity. Right now there seems to be a public perception that
vegetarian/vegan foods are healthier than meat/dairy based foods. Big fast
food is taking advantage of this perception at the moment and reaping the
rewards.

They aren't really healthier though. There's still loads of fat, carbs, and
sodium in combinations that are highly rewarding relative to their caloric
content and nutrition level. High reward, low satiety food and its interaction
with the brain and fat cells, moderated by specific signalling hormones,
comprise an extremely compelling theory [1] for the main cause of the obesity
epidemic.

[1] [https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/25/book-review-the-
hungry...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/25/book-review-the-hungry-
brain/)

------
mark_l_watson
I think it is more difficult to prepare good tasting vegetarian food, based on
my experience also cooking with meat a couple of times a week.

In any case I am happy that more people are getting the chance to eat more
food that they prefer.

I like to stay out of any organic food, vegetarian food, etc., food arguments.
People should have the freedom to buy and eat the types of food they like.

I worry a little about keeping this freedom since the single political party
in the USA the republicrats (also referred to as the Demopublicans) in
servicing their main constituency (I am obviously talking about corporations),
might try to curtail things like accurate packaging labels, etc. if that is
what their corporate constituents want.

------
blue_devil
Seems like the effect size for price was the biggest - people were getting
vegetarian meals more when they cost less.

From the appendix (page 6) here:
[https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2019/09/25/190720711...](https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2019/09/25/1907207116.DCSupplemental/pnas.1907207116.sapp.pdf)

------
geggam
Would someone who is a vegan answer this question I have and I mean no offense
by it.

Why do you want to eat vegetables that are fake meat or made to taste like
meat ?

It seems silly to me.

~~~
superpermutat0r
I like the taste of meat, I like the taste of eggs, texture of yogurt, I like
the taste of practically all foods. I do not like the fact that cow, chicken,
pig, dog, have to die for my tastebuds to feel nice.

Given that I like the tastes I like and do not want to give them up, I'll
rather be calm and eat something that tastes like meat but there's no death of
an animal.

That's it.

Could I live without veggie sausages, bruger patties? Yep. But why not eat
them when they are available.

What I do not understand is the exclusivity of someone who eats meat. If
people today are such foodies, what is wrong with ordering a vegan meal once?
Or buying vegan meat replacements, to try them and see how they taste? Vegan
mayo?

Why not exploit the luxury of the modern world and enjoy all that engineered
food, even if you're vegan or not?

~~~
gridlockd
> I do not like the fact that cow, chicken, pig, dog, have to die for my
> tastebuds to feel nice.

Not only do they have to die, they also have to _live_. If everyone went
vegan, those animals would never have existed.

If the standards of living for the average farm animal were really good, would
that be worse than them having never existed?

~~~
seanwilson
> Not only do they have to die, they also have to live. If everyone went
> vegan, those animals would never have existed.

In the same way, you could justify birthing a human into slavery, birthing a
dog for dog fighting, birthing a bull for bullfighting etc. - it's not a good
reason.

There's animals related to farm bred cows, pigs and chickens in the wild as
well. You could use the land that's used for animal agriculture to let wild
animals thrive, instead of birthing animals into a miserable life.

> If the standards of living for the average farm animal were really good,
> would that be worse than them having never existed?

I don't think there's enough land for this to ever be feasible and feed
everyone that wants to eat meat.

You should also consider that farm animals are killed within around 20% or
less into their natural lifespan so it's not like you'd be giving them much
time to experience a great life. Also, for economical reasons, you'd probably
still have to kill e.g. males from egg laying hens within a day or two, and
male dairy calves within weeks.

~~~
geggam
I would argue that you haven't ever really spent much time in nature.

Example : Wolves and coyotes thrive on killing babies, nature is much more
harsh than any farm I have seen.

~~~
seanwilson
Wolves and coyotes don't have supermarkets. We have a choice to not act like
wild animals.

Animals also murder their own kind, can be cannibalistic and worse. Is it okay
to do those things too because they happen in nature?

We shouldn't (and don't) based our morals and behaviours on wild animals.

~~~
geggam
Where do you think supermarkets get food ?

This is the disconnect so many people have.

~~~
seanwilson
The point was we can live long and healthy lives by going to the supermarket
and buying non-meat food. We can survive now without making animals needlessly
suffer (including paying others to kill animals on our behalf).

Some carnivorous wild animals have no choice but to hunt and eat prey alive to
survive. We have a choice.

~~~
geggam
I choose to eat animals. You choose to eat plants.

Question is why do you want plants to taste like animals and it was answered.
Some folks don’t like killing.

I don’t mind taking an animals life to eat. Therein lies the difference

~~~
seanwilson
> I don’t mind taking an animals life to eat. Therein lies the difference

Can I ask if you'd be okay with killing all the animals you eat yourself?

If you wouldn't be prepared to do the killing yourself, why?

~~~
geggam
Yes. I grew up on a farm. I used to hunt. I can raise slaughter clean and
process animals.

I have always been close to my food source and I think that is why I find this
disconnect people have interesting.

My wife can’t eat out of the garden because she sees the shit on the plants
and the bugs that crawl all over them. She doesn’t have a problem with store
veggies though :)

------
uptownfunk
The hardest part is if you’re trying to lose weight and be vegetarian,
especially if you don’t eat eggs. (Milk okay, Indian vegetarian)

What I call the “protein costs” are just too high, that is, how much does a
gram of protein cost me in terms of a gram of carbs or grams of fat.

Lean Meat has almost almost no protein cost (that is it is almost pure protein
with no fat and no carbs...)

------
miles_matthias
I’m glad to see this study. A high end steakhouse recently opened in Boulder
and I got a chance to tour the place while it was under construction with the
owner. He said for all of Boulder’s hippie food, people demand meat. There may
be some truth to that, but like this study shows, people need the option
realistically before you can determine that.

------
gnicholas
> _Other variables that influenced dining choices included the relative prices
> of vegetarian and non-vegetarian options, and the outdoor temperature._

I wonder what the temperature correlation was — do hotter or colder temps lead
to more vegetarian consumption?

------
Tepix
A friend was in China (Being and Shanghai) and Japan (Tokyo) very recently and
complained about the lack of vegetarian options. In fact one of the
participants in the journey was forced to eat meat because there were no other
options.

~~~
edent
I can't speak for the other cities, but I found Beijing great for vegetarians.
See my culinary travels at [https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2017/05/a-vegetarian-in-
beijing/](https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2017/05/a-vegetarian-in-beijing/)

Even the restaurants which weren't purely veggie had lots of options.

------
duxup
> “wild mushroom, roasted butternut squash and sun blushed tomato risotto with
> parmesan”

I'll probabbly be a hold out when it comes to most of that, at least as far as
ONLY eating that goes.

I'd be happy to eat a meat substitute that tastes like meat.

------
hkai
The issue that I have with vegetarian food is that it is usually double to
triple the price of a normal meal with meat. I get it, it's trendy. In India
it's the opposite, vegetarian food costs less.

------
haolez
I'm not vegetarian, but in my previous job my favorite nearby restaurant for
lunch time was a vegetarian one. The food tasted incredibly good and it
wouldn't make me drowsy during the afternoon.

------
frankhhhhhhhhh
This just in, people eat more vegetables when there are actual vegetables on
offer. When vegetables are removed, surprisingly people eat less vegetables!

------
anonymouswacker
It's a fad.

------
traditionmatte
The first vegetarian meal I've had where I didn't feel hungry afterwards was
in an Indian vegetarian restaurant. It also tasted amazingly good.

Parts of India are vegetarian, so they have had plenty of time to refine the
offering and see what works together.

~~~
0xcafecafe
Vegetarian Indian here, I agree. Growing up watching American cartoons I
always used to wonder why the kids are shown not to like vegetables. Its only
when I moved here (US) and saw how vegetables are served, I could empathize
with the cartoon character kids.

There are parts of India which are almost entirely vegetarian. So much so
that, it has prompted giants like pizza hut and subway to open vegetarian only
restaurants.

[https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/US-
food-g...](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/US-food-giants-
turn-vegetarian-in-Gujarat/articleshow/18823980.cms)

And might I add, the food is delicious.

------
YinglingLight
The study is on college kids.

~~~
4ad
You are downvoted for no reason. Not only that college kids are not
representative for the entire population, but most importantly college kids
tend not to have money. The article says:

> variables that influenced dining choices included the relative prices of
> vegetarian and non-vegetarian options

~~~
tom_mellior
> most importantly college kids tend not to have money

But if that's a very important factor and vegetarian was cheapest, anyone
strapped for cash would always have chosen the vegetarian option even before
this experiment, so nothing would change.

Also, from the actual abstract
([https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/09/24/1907207116](https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/09/24/1907207116)):
"Linking sales data to participants’ previous meal purchases revealed that the
largest effects were found in the quartile of diners with the lowest prior
levels of vegetarian meal selection."

~~~
4ad
You are assuming they would always chose the cheapest, not the best (by some
criteria) they could afford. If suddently the sole meat option is more
expensive than yesterdays cheaper meat, that might be too expensive for them,
so they are forced onto the cheaper vegetarian options that they could avoid
the day before.

~~~
tom_mellior
> If suddently the sole meat option is more expensive than yesterdays cheaper
> meat

My understanding was that they went from three meat options to two, and I saw
no indication in the abstract that they changed pricing (but I haven't read
the paper), but yes, there are possible scenarios in which they were "forced"
to eat non-meat.

More plausible, to me, is that most people who regularly eat meat are not
_that_ uptight about it, and willing to try other stuff without feeling
victimized. But yes, I also know people who are the opposite.

