
How to know when someone is in trouble in the water - pavel
http://mobile.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/family/2013/06/rescuing_drowning_children_how_to_know_when_someone_is_in_trouble_in_the.html
======
ender7
Beware: it is very dangerous to attempt to rescue a full-grown person who is
drowning. A person who is drowning has temporarily lost their mind and will
happily drown their would-be rescuer in an attempt to stay above the water.
Approach a drowning person from behind and hold them above the water by their
armpits.

~~~
mikeryan
_Approach a drowning person from behind and hold them above the water by their
armpits_

Unless you're a trained lifeguard this is poor advice. As stated above you
don't want to get within touching/grabbing distance of a drowning person. Get
some sort of intermediary between you and them, a stick, rope, shirt, pants
whatever. Something that you can drop if you are at risk.

To the point below about their instincts of not grabbing it. Don't leave it
out where they need to reach for it. Hit them in the head or arms with the
stick or piece of clothing and they'll grab it. My first few pool rescues with
a lifebouy I'd leave it within their grasp and they'd not grab it. If I hit
them in the head or hands with it they'd grab it every time.

~~~
mcclung
I had a lady next to me start to drown and grab me in a pool when I was
getting my diving certification. Despite having a supply of air, wetsuit, fins
and buoyancy control device on, she got that drowning sensation when her
respirator came out. Once she had someone to hold onto, sanity was restored
but I totally got why drowning people are dangerous from then on.

~~~
SiVal
I used to teach scuba, and people would occasionally freak out and grab me as
if they were trying to drown me. I wasn't too concerned about my own safety in
those cases, because years of play in the ocean had taught me not to panic
when unexpectedly shoved underwater. You always have some air in your lungs.
Stay calm, and it will give you the time you need (unless you're in extreme
conditions).

Just swim _down_ when you are grabbed. If you kick and thrash to try to raise
yourself to get your head above the water, they will feel you raising them up
and try to climb on top of you for safety. So you shovel water with your arms
to push yourself farther _down_ , pulling them down just enough that their
heads go underwater, too, and they'll release you quickly. They are struggling
desperately to keep their heads above water and won't hang on to something
that's pulling them under. Your head is already underwater, so it won't hurt
_you_ to go a little deeper, but if _you_ panic and try to fight toward the
surface, they might hold you under until it's too late for you. Go _down_.

Once they release, you push back out of reach, get your air at the surface,
and figure out how to help them.

------
kaoD
I can confirm the article. Almost drowned once in a river: I let myself go
with the current and, once I tried swimming back, realized I accidentally went
into strong currents.

I tried swimming harder, but eventually got tired and sunk. Despite my friends
being about 20/30 meters away from me, they didn't realize I was drowning. I
couldn't scream for help nor do anything but trying to stick my head out and
breathe. I couldn't stay afloat long enough to cause any water splash either.

Fortunately I touched a rock that was sticking out from the bottom with my
foot and stood there for a bit to recover and go back.

Be careful this summer!

~~~
qrybam
Ditto. I remember my drowning in a swimming pool very vividly. I was around 9
at the time, couldn't swim and was sitting on one of those foam floats. A
friend of mine (he didn't know about my lack of swimming ability) pushed me
off the float right in the middle of the deep end. This is where the article's
description really hits home with me:

1\. I wasn't able to stay afloat in my vertical position (as described)

2\. I tried to scream for help, but ended up with a mouth full of chlorine
water each time

3\. No adults/kids were reacting to me at all

4\. I accepted (3) and decided to take matters into my own hands

5\. Took the biggest breath I could (wasn't very big), stuck my head
underwater, opened my eyes and "swam" as hard as I could to the edge of the
pool ... I blacked out on the way

6\. An adult found me unconscious underwater, holding onto the side of the
pool, blue in the face

7\. CPR

8\. I'm here to tell the tale \o/

(edit: formatting)

~~~
Filligree
Doesn't sound like the drowning reflex kicked in for you, there.

------
minikites
This get re-published every summer for good reason. Drowning happens
frequently and it's theoretically preventable if people knew what to look for.

Also, be careful if you have to save a drowning person. The drowning response
will cause them to instinctively push you under in an effort to get above
water, so make sure you have your own floatation device so they don't end up
drowning you.

~~~
zachrose
IIRC, half of the year's drowning deaths in Finland I occur during the
solstice, which is happening this very instant.

------
muraiki
I've seen articles like this before, and whenever I read them I think about a
time on vacation when I could quite possibly have drowned. I had traveled
abroad with some friends and went into relatively shallow water. However, I
hadn't swam at all in many years, and I was also out of shape.

We decided to have a swimming race. About halfway through I was completely
exhausted, both from being out of shape and not being a very good swimmer in
the first place. At that point I stopped to rest and realized that my feet
couldn't hit the bottom. I recall my mouth being above and then below water,
along with panic. I don't remember exactly what happened, but I got the idea
to try and backfloat, which I was able to do. After resting a bit I was able
to direct myself to shallow water again.

At the time I didn't think too much of it, but when I reflect upon it I think
that I was drowning. My friends were indeed not far away, and I couldn't yell
or thrash my hands around. It's scary to consider that I could have died while
so close to them!

------
b0rsuk
"""How did this captain know—from 50 feet away—what the father couldn’t
recognize from just 10? Drowning is not the violent, splashing call for help
that most people expect. The captain was trained to recognize drowning by
experts and years of experience. The father, on the other hand, had learned
what drowning looks like by watching television. (...) Drowning is almost
always a deceptively quiet event."""

I think there should be a law against showing kicking&screaming drowning
people in movies. I'm not a fan of censorship otherwise, but here we have a
clear case where movies occasionally lead to lost lives.

~~~
clarkmoody
You would need a much more comprehensive overview process to eliminate
misleading information from movies, even if it were limited to life-
threatening misinformation!

One instance I can think of is MRI magnets. Often, a medical drama will cut to
someone pushing a button and the magnet coming on. In reality, the magnets are
always on and bringing metal objects within range can have dire consequences.

The whole movie _Home Alone_ depicts life-threatening pranks on the burglars.
c.f. dropping a clothing iron 3 stories onto someone's face.

~~~
mikeash
Banning the portrayal of drivers looking at their passengers while talking to
them would probably save more lives than banning inaccurate portrayals of
drowning.

~~~
clarkmoody
Correct. However, drowning is high on the list[1] of common causes of injury
death for children. Vehicle accidents are the 1st for ages 5-24.

[1]
[http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_Unintentional_D...](http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_Unintentional_Deaths_2010-a.pdf)

------
Arjuna
In addition to the point of this piece, please read the following for
comprehensive guidelines with regard to water safety:

[http://www.redcross.org/prepare/disaster/water-
safety](http://www.redcross.org/prepare/disaster/water-safety)

For those heading to the beach, please be aware of the _rip current_
phenomenon:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_current‎](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_current‎)

[http://www.ripcurrents.noaa.gov](http://www.ripcurrents.noaa.gov)

------
hyborg787
From my relative who was a Boat & Water Safety person in Minnesota regarding
this article:

This is a song I have been singing for years. Drowning is silent, fast, and
deadly. One of the best videos I have seen on this subject is "The Reasons
People Drown", produced by Dr. Pia. It is excellent, chilling, and should be
watched by everyone who is responsible for or who cares about small children
and non-swimmers who venture near the water.

Drowning victims are helpless, and without intervention, will be dead in one
minute or less. Most drowning victims perish within 6 feet of safety, and that
safety often is a person who could have rescued them if they had known what
was happening within arms reach.

Re-read the description of a drowning victim and then compare it to the sight
of a child at play. There are many similarities and if you are not vigilant
you will never notice the differences.

If your child is near the water, you need to be near your child. And, it is
not possible to adequately monitor a child in the water and read a book at the
same time. Pay attention to the child only, and don't try to keep an eye on
more than two at one time!

------
spullara
This device on IndieGogo seems really promising:

[http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-seal-wearable-swim-
mon...](http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-seal-wearable-swim-monitoring-
and-drowning-detection-system?browse_v=old_no_dropdown)

It is just too easy not to notice a drowning person, especially a child, even
if they are right in front of you.

~~~
rdl
How does it work? I assume it's a water pressure sensor which requires more
than a foot or two of water to activate, and some kind of timer, combined with
the transmitter? (otherwise a collar doesn't really work -- I can keep my neck
immersed in water all day and not drown...)

~~~
pcrh
From another site [1], it seems as if it monitors the amount of time spent
underwater, and is activated if this exceeds a preset amount of time.

[1]
[http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/05/28/seal_syst...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/05/28/seal_system_indiegogo_campaign_is_raising_money_for_drowning_detection_technology.html)

------
swinnipeg
The absence of screaming and waving seems obvious after reading it, I realize
I am really am conditioned to think if people aren't screaming...etc they
aren't in trouble.

That said there is definitely some lifeguard propaganda in the article (who
knew such a thing existed?):

"From beginning to end of the Instinctive Drowning Response people’s bodies
remain upright in the water, with no evidence of a supporting kick. _Unless
rescued by a trained lifeguard,_ these drowning people can only struggle on
the surface of the water from 20 to 60 seconds before submersion occurs.”

~~~
parfe
A drowning person will endanger his rescuer by instinctively climbing onto the
highest point available (the rescuer's head).

If you see someone drowning, alert a lifeguard if possible. Depending on the
situation, the proper action might require the rescuer to counter intuitively
drag the person under water. On the other hand, if no life guard is present,
don't just let someone drown, but saving them is a risk.

source: I was a "victim" for lifeguard training.

~~~
hluska
Just curious...let's say that you see someone drowning, you aren't a trained
lifeguard, and there aren't any lifeguards around. Could an untrained person
rescue that person safely? Any tips?

~~~
parfe
First, the primary job for any rescuer is to not become another victim.

Be prepared for a _violent_ altercation with the victim. The person is dying
and not thinking normally. Don't be afraid to hurt the person to protect
yourself.

If the situation is too much, back off and wait for the victim to lose
consciousness. Pulling a drowning person from the water takes more than just
strong swimming.

And again, I was only the dummy for real life guards so I basically got to act
the worst possible situation. I'm sure some rescues look just like Baywatch
portrays.

~~~
ars
Is it a good idea to approach from behind and force the parson to lay back on
you? (A headlock basically.) This gets their mouth out of the water so they
can breath.

Once they breath for a bit they'll calm down and can help in their rescue.

------
diminoten
I worked as a lifeguard in high school and had to save a kid once.

I didn't even think he was having trouble until one of the counselors yelled,
"DIMINOTEN!" He was taking a swim test and looked just like all the other
kids, except he wasn't going anywhere.

Being a lifeguard is a silly job. 99.999% of the time you're doing nothing but
sitting in a chair, trying not to fall asleep. It's that ONE time when you
need to be paying attention that's critical and matters absolutely.

~~~
aerolite
what is "diminoten"?

~~~
webdestroya
his name

------
ComputerGuru
This is an excellent article, it was posted around 3 years ago from the
original source and there was some great discussion at the time, revolving
around some of the questions and opinions currently being discussed here in
the comments.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1492835](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1492835)

It's good to see it resurface, definitely one of the more memorable articles
I've ever read.

~~~
lemming
Agreed - the articles and the commentary are fascinating.

------
nsxwolf
A video would be helpful. I'm not confident I could recognize all those signs
from the descriptions.

~~~
roc
Only lifeguards need to be able to spot it at 50'. And they'll get training.

For everyone else: you only need to spot the silence. People in water make
noise and move. If anyone isn't doing that, talk to them. You don't have to
say "hey, are you drowning?" just "hi" or strike up some small talk.

If they aren't responding and don't seem to be doing anything but bobbing
along with their mouth barely above water, that continued silence is what
should urge you into further action.

------
clarkmoody
Here[1] is the publication where the article gets its description of
_Instinctive Drowning Response_. Skip to page 14 (pdf).

[1]
[http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg534/On%20Scene/OSFall06.pdf](http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg534/On%20Scene/OSFall06.pdf)

------
Mindless2112
I spent a couple of summers as a lifeguard at a college swimming pool, and I
have seen this first-hand.

As a lifeguard, I was well trained in how to rescue but not particularly well
trained in how to _recognize_ a drowning victim. There was a time I watched a
boy bobbing up and down in the water, looking upward, mouth open, but not
appearing to gasp for breath, the whole time wondering if he was in trouble.
Luckily he was less than two yards from his mother, and she eventually picked
him up. (Also luckily for me, she didn't think anything of it, or I might have
been in trouble -- she probably didn't recognize that he was actually drowning
either!) Only when I read the original publication of this article was I
certain that he had been drowning at the time.

A side-note so that I don't seem like a complete abomination of a lifeguard: I
did save a drowning victim at that pool. She displayed the TV-portrayed signs
of drowning after jumping off the diving board with no idea how to swim.
Probably due to the adrenaline rush, the rescue is a bit fuzzy, but that's
where the lifeguard training kicks in.

~~~
mistercow
>She displayed the TV-portrayed signs of drowning after jumping off the diving
board with no idea how to swim. Probably due to the adrenaline rush, the
rescue is a bit fuzzy, but that's where the lifeguard training kicks in.

My guess is that the reason was that she was not drowning yet. She probably
_would_ have if you hadn't saved her, but in her case she had a few pre-
drowning moments in which to react. The difference would be that she
consciously knew that she was screwed as soon as she was in the water, since
she didn't know how to swim.

~~~
gmrple
Yes, something most people don't know about drowning is that it is typically
defined as the point at which breathing is interrupted and the person is
mostly motionless, usually perpendicular to the surface of the water.
Sometimes before beginning to drown a person will become a distressed swimmer,
which is what people think of as stereotypical drowning behavior. People in
this stage often need rescuing, but they are not drowning. The trick is that
while people often go from distressed to drowning, people that are drowning
may never go through the distressed stage.

------
mikeryan
Another bit that makes drowning deceptive is that most of the time the victim
will be in relatively shallow water or fairly close to the edge of the pool.
If you can't swim its usually hard to get out to deep/open water (unless in a
beach break) so a lot of kids that struggle will do so within a foot or two of
being able to reach a wall or shallow enough water to stand up in.

~~~
pdonis
Which brings up the obvious advice: if you're going to take your kids to the
beach, or to the pool, teach them how to swim! Teach them young enough that
they haven't yet developed an instinctive fear of water; then they'll be
natural swimmers for life. (I learned to swim at about age 6 months.) If you
can't teach them yourself, find a program at the local pool or rec center.

~~~
samspot
I don't think you really learned to swim at 6 months. At that age you are
learning to be comfortable with the water, but you have a ways to go before
you can actually swim. Your parents probably told you that you were able to
swim because you were successful in whatever they were trying to do at that
age.

source: My children are in infant swim classes.

~~~
pdonis
_I don 't think you really learned to swim at 6 months._

You're correct that my statement is only true for certain values of "swim". :)
Being comfortable with the water is probably a more accurate description of
what's achievable at that age, yes.

However, I used the term "swim" to make the point that what kids learn as
infants is just the beginning; to really reduce their risk of drowning, they
have to continue advancing to the point where the really can "actually swim".
I was at that point by about age 4 1/2.

------
japhyr
I first read this article right around the time my son was born. I soon
realized this is a really good mindset for supervising young children as well.
If your kid is playing out of sight and you don't hear them for a while, go
find them and see what they are doing.

"Listening for silence" is a really good skill to learn.

------
atulagarwal
Well, I had almost drowned once. I had a personal flotation device and I knew
swimming! We were out rafting, and I had swayed away from the raft swimming in
light rapids (the instructor said its very safe - which it wasn't). When I
realized that the rapids were overwhelming me, I tried to stay afloat (a
flotation device and know-how of floating works - but I guess I was
panicked!), but did not help too much. It took me sometime to realize I was
drowning, and in the meantime I had told another raft that had approached to
help - that I was fine (overconfidence?). When the reality hit, it was bad,
and I could not even scream. I did wave my hands, on to which my friends on
the raft threw a rope, and I survived.

Even swimmers (I consider myself below average) can drown. "Panic" is to blame
here. The following article explains a similar case quite here (search for
"scuba-diving"):

[http://www.gladwell.com/2000/2000_08_21_a_choking.html](http://www.gladwell.com/2000/2000_08_21_a_choking.html)

------
garycomtois
The link was for the mobile slate site. This is the non-mobile version:

[http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/family/2013...](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/family/2013/06/rescuing_drowning_children_how_to_know_when_someone_is_in_trouble_in_the.html)

------
Cyranix
If this topic interests you, please consider engaging with Colin's Hope if you
are able. I used to work with a member of their board of directors, and I know
from direct experience that the organization is incredibly passionate about
their cause.

[https://www.colinshope.org](https://www.colinshope.org)

------
hvflykrur
When I was 10 I was at a water park and they had some sort of artificial wave
generator in one of the pools. It wasn't until last year (when I first read
the article) that I realized that what I experienced in that pool was
Instinctive Drowning Response. Naturally I realized at the time that I had
been in some sort of trouble, but not that that was drowning. The power of the
whole "kicking and screaming" trope, I guess.

One of my classmates from school actually swam by me in the pool (while I was
drowning) and tried to get me closer to a rope which was hanging by the pool's
edge... and when he failed he promptly swam off and did nothing more. (Not
that I think that he realized the full gravity of the situation and simply
wanted me to die or anything.)

------
JakeSc
I'm not sure if you did this on purpose, but THANK YOU for posting the mobile
version of the site. It removes a lot of the distracting spam from the main
version.

I think more people should try to find a mobile version of a submission before
submitting it.

------
cfn
This happened to me once in a pool and until I read an article like this I
didn't even know I was drowning. I was 5 or 6 and was in a swimming class. I
remember going up and down and not being able to say anything or do anything
but that. I don't think anyone noticed me but I may be wrong. What saved me
was that the pool bottom was slanted so every time I went down I touched it
just a bit but enough to push me slowly to the shallower end.

~~~
samspot
It is really scary to think that you could have drowned in swimming class. I
will definitely be attentive of my own children when they are learning. Glad
you survived!

------
jacobparker
Wow, that was uncomfortable to read. I had forgotten about a time where this
happened to me in a regular in-ground pool (I was very young.) I can confirm
the description of the article: arms extended, cant speak, mouth going in and
out of the water with my head tilted up etc.

A friend noticed and got me to safety; my dad was confused and I felt very
weird/blurry about how I had reacted.

Thanks.

------
kayhi
If you're going to swim in open water (not a pool) and there is a lifeguard,
tell them you're going to go swimming and ask if there is anything you should
be aware of.

They often have insights into certain areas, underwater terrain, currents and
the influence of tidal changes. Also by talking with them, they will be more
aware of your location.

------
stretchwithme
Some day cameras will monitor what happens in a pool and software will be good
enough to figure out when someone is drowning, releasing the nearest
floatation device from the bottom of the pool.

------
dspeyer

        color: rgb(102,102,102)
    

Seriously?

Why do so many publishers make their content so hard to read?

(Once I fixed that with inspectElement, the article was good.)

~~~
JoelSutherland
You're using chrome on windows right? The linked URL is their mobile site and
the text container has been 3dtransformed forcing grayscale antialiasing which
Chrome does poorly.

Check it out on Firefox or IE and you'll see what I mean.

It will look much better on a mobile device as well. If you drop "mobile."
from the url you'll get their normal desktop site which also has much better
type in Windows Chrome.

~~~
dspeyer
I'm using Firefox.

I do have some ambient light. Maybe if I replaced the curtains in my window
with true blackout curtains this would look ok.

------
capex
grab the drowning person by their hair, while approaching from the rear.

------
coin
Unrelated, but why does Slate disable pinchzoom for mobile devices?

