
University of Wisconsin to offer degrees based on tested ability - anigbrowl
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323301104578255992379228564.html/
======
blahedo
This is the magic quote: "Now, educators in Wisconsin are offering a possible
solution by decoupling the learning part of education from student assessment
and degree-granting."

Speaking as an educator (I teach undergrad-level CS) I would _love_ to be able
to not have to give high-stakes assessments: I'd still assign projects and
give exams to be able to give students feedback and help both of us understand
where they're at, but the whole process would be so much less stressful (on
both sides) if the assessment-for-credit came from someone else somewhere
else.

(Interestingly, I _also_ am very interested in writing and working out how to
fairly score the for-credit assessments; I just don't want them to be part of
my class.)

That said, there's a lot that's a little scary about initiatives like this
(from a job security standpoint), but I do think that something along these
lines is both inevitable and, ultimately, the right direction to go.

~~~
gz5
Any concern that the student then focuses on the assessment alone, less
interested and less engaged in activities/classes/work that would otherwise
teach her how to learn, how to work in a team, etc?

Does this focus students on an outcome that is arguably less important than
the process to get there?

~~~
bphogan
It sure does. Kinda happens in public schools now - teachers teach to the test
because they need the students to pass the standardized tests.

------
rayiner
I find this extremely interesting, especially coming from a university where
the certification actually means something.

I think Coursera, OpenCourseware, etc, get things backwards. They assume that
the knowledge is the valuable part, and so use the online format to deliver
knowledge. But in reality, the vast majority of people go to college to get
the certification, not the knowledge. That's the valuable part of college
education and that's what U of Wisconsin is offering.

~~~
danielweber
_I think Coursera, OpenCourseware, etc, get things backwards._

Well, they did what they can. It's very hard to invent a new institution with
a trusted reputation, almost by definition.

Also, the dissemination of knowledge is the part that scales the most.
Evaluation is tough and expensive, especially if you are trying even modestly
to prevent cheating.

Someone could go to a MOOC to learn the stuff, then get the assessment from
UWisconsin.

~~~
wildgift
How is evaluation "tough" if you have the entire corpus of the student's work
in a course? There's less need for testing if you can see all their work. The
point of testing is to come up with a simple statistic that sums up someone's
knowledge and performance.

~~~
danielweber
It's hard to make sure it's the student and not Joe Blow who he hired to take
the test for him, especially remotely.

------
navyrain
When an excellent education can be had with the internet and self-study,
universities will simply curate topic sources, and sell accreditation. Glad to
see my alma mater acknowledge this inevitability.

~~~
rayiner
I'm not entirely sure it would be applicable to all disciplines. I wouldn't
want to hire a mechanical engineer who had never done group projects, for
example, or an aerospace engineer that had never spent time in a wind tunnel.

~~~
jmj42
But that can still be part of the credentialing process. Consider the medical
field. A medical degree is only small part of the credentialing process. In
addition, you'll usually need an internship, a residency, then board
certification (optional).

Even at the low end of the medical field, here in Illinois, EMT-I and EMT-P
(paramedic) require both clinic time and a practical (live simulation) exam.

You simply implement something similar for engineering.

~~~
derleth
We even have a word for it: _Apprenticeship._

There's more theoretical knowledge behind nursing and engineering compared to
carpentry and plumbing, but, really, the idea of on-the-job training with
someone who knows what they're doing watching is something we _know_ works
because it _has_ worked for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

So some degree programs will entail an apprenticeship. That's going to be a
lot more difficult to game than a multiple-choice exam would be.

~~~
walshemj
um no Apprenticeships are strictly craft skills and sit at the base of the
engineering pyramid.

An apprentice might make a wind tunnel model designed by an engineer but they
would probably know zero about CFD.

I do wish people who have never worked in proper engineering would stop
throwing craft and apprentice in to discussions when they have no
understanding of what they are taking about.

~~~
darklajid
Funny. Here in Germany you can

\- study for your CS degree (formerly 'Diplom', now Bachelor/Master) at a
university for a couple years

\- do a 2.5/3 year thing including school and working in a company (actually
having a company to take you on is required for these kinds of degrees most of
the time). It's - an apprenticeship (using the same process, word and
methodology as you'd use in a crafting skill)

Do you get the very same job offers, the same salary? Probably not. But I'd
say that you have the chance to work on the same stuff as any bachelor/master
of CS. I think the disadvantage is merely in the first couple of years and
often (note: Not always. Sometimes the more theoretical CS background counts a
lot, of course) unfairly so.

So - yeah. You can do an apprenticeship here. Starting with 16 (you'd be done
with 19) or 18-19 (you'd probably be allowed to shorten the time to 2 years ->
20, 21).

Disclaimer: I have neither a ~normal~ degree from a university nor did I do
this apprenticeship. But - it works.

~~~
walshemj
I think your point "same job offers, the same salary? Probably not" i think
you just made my point.

And I seem to recall the German education system has some quite strict
streaming. I think going from apprentice-> ->technician->engineer (or similar
level of job) might be harder in Germany than it is in the UK or US.

Having said that Germany has a very powerfull vocational training system
unlike any where else in the world.

~~~
darklajid
And here I am, having none of these things, posting on HN from a very
reasonable (will I ever be stop looking for better things?) and well-payed
development job.

So, two things.

1) You claimed that an apprenticeship is only for crafts and I told you that
this isn't the case here. Locally your 'strictly craft skills' comment would
be wrong. Very much so.

2) Yeah, a degree matters in some/most places, like everywhere else in the
world I guess. That's not related to apprenticeships in particular though
(having done stuff like that is better than having nothing of value in writing
at all, like .. me). And too general to be 'truthy'.

Back to the topic: Apprentices (and former apprentices) are not unable to do
the job of an engineer.

~~~
walshemj
well you have to look at the wider picture Germany is rare (almost unique) in
that engineers are looked up to as the equivelent or a doctor and lawyer.

And how many senior engineers at Audi and BMW and Mercedes started as
apprentices.

In the English speaking word this is not the case we are look upon as greasy
almost sub human.

for example the wife of the no2 at bt labs you know the place where the first
computer was designed and built when she said that he husband was an engineer
she was asked patronizingly "oh thats nice dear what sort of cars does he work
on"

------
tptacek
Huh. I started working directly after high school; less than 2 years after I
graduated, I was The Tech Guy at the largest ISP in Chicago, and just a few
years later a developer at the first commercial vulnerability research lab.

I never really even had a chance to think about a degree.

Maybe now I should!

~~~
csomar
What point are you trying to make here?

~~~
tptacek
I'm not sure I understand your question. I wasn't being sarcastic.

~~~
csomar
I smelled sarcasm, thanks for clarifying. Otherwise, why would you consider
getting back to college? Nostalgia for college days or just because you didn't
had that experience? What value do you think it could bring? (I dropped for 2
years, and still not sure what to do next)

------
manglav
Finally! Separating certification from knowledge. This will eventually be the
norm I feel.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I can't tell if you're trying to make an ironic joke or if you mean separating
certification from the acquisition of knowledge?

~~~
manglav
Definitely not trying to make a joke. If someone had the knowledge equivalent
to a bachelor's level, does it seem correct that to be considered equal, the
individual would have to pay for at least 3 years of school full-time (even if
he tested out of easy classes) and paid ~ $50,000? This is for a cheap school,
not a top-tier.

This has never made sense to me. Knowledge is knowledge - who cares where it
came from? I'm not saying other things are not learned in college - yes
teamwork is important and such. But you can literally learn that in any
situation. What about experience? If you're not actively trying to go to
school, and doing BS work, you can actually get a relevant job, show some
creativity in your field, or (I wish) hopefully get an apprenticeship. I hope
these come back some day - the learning is unparalleled.

Three years ago, I spoke to a friend about designing a computer science
bachelor's exam. It could literally be as grueling as you want, over a 10 day
period, and you could charge up to $5,000 easily. Most people I spoke to said
they had concerns about people "cramming for the exam". In truth, those people
do not know how to design tests. It is VERY easy to prevent cramming,
especially with such material, all you need is a little creativity. By
"prevent cramming" I mean creative questions that force the candidate to know
the material so well that cramming --> learning involuntarily.

I chose to start with a comp sci exam because it requires the least physical
resources for the exam (no circuits, no lab, no nothing). Eventually, other
degrees could be created once a proof of concept had been completed.

The original reason Universities were created were for efficiency (source: Sir
Ken Robinson's TED talk). Teaching 50 students by mail, making each one order
each textbook and other reference texts is crazily inefficient. Locating them
all in one place, having lectures for all 50 students at once, and a library
where all relevant texts are held is much better. What we're seeing now is
just a modern version. Instead of lectures, we have video. Instead of library,
we have ebooks/internet/curated content.

Sorry if I rambled for a bit, I'm very passionate about this issue. The thing
is, without power in the field, changing education is hard. This is definitely
the gateway, and I'm happy that I get to see all the fantastic (but slow for
me) changes. The next step is re-optimizing spending in high schools. My
mother works at a high school, and the stories I hear about wasteful
technology spending are hard to hear.

------
dpatru
It takes just about ten seconds to verify that a sprinter is world-class, but
it takes hundreds or thousands of hours to train that sprinter. Colleges are
in the "sprinter" training business. They throw in the verification for free.
(Colleges charge for their courses; the exams come included.)

Colleges are just delaying, not avoiding, their end by focusing on the
verification. First, because they don't have the cost structure to compete
effectively on verification. You don't need to spend $40,000 a year just to
take a few tests. And, second, testing is not a stable long-term strategy for
colleges because once they lose their status as the best place to learn, they
will also lose their status as the best place to be tested. That is, I suspect
that once Udacity becomes known as the best place to learn computer science,
Udacity will begin offering certification tests that will have more prestige
than colleges.

------
unimpressive
I too have concerns about rigor. At the same time, I'm incredibly impressed
with the world this week.

------
breckenedge
Wow, nothing in the article mentioning how UW will ensure that the people
taking the tests are the same people receiving the degree. Will all of this
testing take place at UW?

~~~
jey
Online courses often require you to find and hire proctor locally meeting some
criteria. For example,
[http://www.uis.edu/colrs/learning/gettingstarted/ProctoredEx...](http://www.uis.edu/colrs/learning/gettingstarted/ProctoredExamGuidelines.html#approve)

~~~
bphogan
I've proctored an exam for an online class. There was no vetting. Nobody even
checked that I was faculty anywhere.

------
waterlesscloud
Say a couple dozen credible schools start to do this. What would be the
differentiating factor? Their classroom reputation, which shouldn't apply much
to this path at all?

~~~
sliverstorm
The rigor of their testing, of course.

Possibly to a lesser degree, fees, accessibility, that sort of thing.

~~~
bilbo0s
Yep.

I would expect MIT's exams to be outright impossible for a mortal to pass.

University of Wisconsin's will be nearly impossible to pass even with
concerted study.

Northern Illinois will be possible to pass with study.

and then there will be institutions whose certifications don't mean a whole
lot. There's no question about that.

But MOST people will try to pass the impossible ones... because the payoff
will be so much bigger. Only a few will pass though. I'm thinking the tests
will be designed that way. I strongly suspect getting a degree from UMichigan,
UWisconsin, UTexas, Berkeley, etc. will be MUCH easier if you just attend. But
this is a good option for those who, for whatever reason, don't wish to do so.

~~~
phaus
Well, you can easily test your theory in some cases. Many of MIT's open
courseware classes include the exams. Are they impossible for someone without
any knowledge on the subjects? Pretty much, but if you follow the course
content, they are passable.

------
absherwin
This sort of program has existed since the 70's. Excelsior, Charter Oak, and
Thomas Edison all offer similar programs across a wider range of fields than
Wisconsin is. The news here is that a school with a name is offering such a
program. That said, nursing is a field where school reputation doesn't matter
much and IT isn't a prestigious major. This is better seen as a harbinger of
change than as a significant change itself.

------
gamegoblin
I have mixed feelings about this. It could be great good if done correctly,
but there is also a lot of room for error.

On a related note of "credit based on knowledge", I am always fond of college
professors who have the policy "If you make an 'A' on the final, you make an
'A' in the class", the premise being that you clearly have learned the
material, and their job is to make sure you know the material.

~~~
bphogan
I don't know... I feel that a final examination is no test of knowledge. It's
a test of memory. It's regurgitation. I'd never do that in my class.

I do have one class where doing well on the final project can get a failing
student a passing grade though. But the project requires they apply what
they've learned.

~~~
anigbrowl
I don't understand that, unless your final consists of mutliple chioce
quetions. Why can't you just set novel problems that require written answers?
Americans are in love with multiple choice tests for some bizarre reason. Most
countries in Europe conduct extensive testing through school,b but multiple-
choice only makes up a small portion of the whole exam. Students have to
answer essay questions and show their work on problems.

I see no reason why this UW initiative can't work the same way. I hope that it
can work this way and attract credibility, since it would make it easier for
people like myself who find the spiraling cost of college tuition hard to
manage.

~~~
mjmahone17
Presumably, the cost of taking the tests is the cost of having someone
thoroughly vet your work, in addition to developmental costs. If it costs,
say, $1,000, you'd expect that to mean that people would spend around 10 hours
actually verifying your work. And so, even if you have to write 10 papers and
develop 10 projects, 10 hours of grading should be plenty to provide a fairly
comprehensive assessment (30 minutes per large assignment is much more than
most professors put in now. At least, in my department). For $1,000, you could
even up the evaluation time to something like 40 hours (at ~$15/hr, plus
administrative costs) by using TAs who really understand.

~~~
wildgift
This is why college won't get any cheaper: there will be more value in having
a qualified person evaluate not only the test, but all your schoolwork. You
can game a test, but it's harder to game a few years of school.

------
davidroberts
I received my BA through a similar program that used to be offered by the
State of New York through their fully accredited Regents College program (now
called Excelsior College, and not offering this pathway to a degree anymore).
When I started I already had about a semester's worth of credits from various
colleges; I sent in those transcripts and took two CLEP tests (each worth
about three units), and three GRE subject exams in Economics, History, and
English Literature (each worth 30 units, or one full year). A balance of
Humanities, Social Science, and Science/Math credits were required.

I started in Sept. 1987, I passed my last exam in December and started
graduate school in January (didn't graduate). It was a wonderful program. I
even wrote a book about it and sold maybe 25 copies.

That degree has helped me get several jobs that required a college degree, and
now I'm getting ready to go back to grad school again.

------
wildgift
I consider this a farce, but U of W isn't a top tier college, so that's OK.
It's a good college. They're really devaluing their regular degree by offering
a test-based certification.

The future of education isn't in testing. That's not education at all, really.
The future is going to be in helping the student to develop a body of work
that can be evaluated. There will be testing, but here's what it will be:
every bit of work will be recorded, and evaluated. It'll mostly be evaluated
by computer programs.

Think about it. If you have a test with 150 questions, how is that really
better than, say, 500 homework problems? If you have a few 500 word test
essays, how is that better than, say, 5,000 words, with some stats about time
taken, revisions, and other information about the body of work?

------
bphogan
Good teachers aren't lecturing. They're facilitating. They're bringing in
discussions, showing examples, and helping students learn. The reason the
online classes work is because students figured out that instructor/content
focused courses don't require students to actually attend.

Look at "flipped classrooms" where students read and watch lectures at home
and then come to class prepared to discuss and perform.

I don't think I'm an exceptioanl teacher but I think I'm quite good, and
students who've taken online classes prefer having some face-to-face time with
me and other students because I don't lecture and read powerpoints for 60
minutes.

Any instructor/professor that lectures, recites, and PowerPoints is absolutely
in danger of being replaced by an online course because they add little value.

------
frozenport
There are 2 problems:

A college education exists to teach you how to learn. A programmer who took 30
years to acquire skills that took another 4 years could be wholly
inappropriate, especially if you want problems solved in reasonable time. My
professors proudly stated that they had forgotten more than they had learned.
A college education carries a cognitive component that must also be addressed.

A successful college degree requires persistence, organization, and emotional
stability. A critical deficit in these attributes may make somebody
incompatible with the modern work environment. It is not hard to imagine
someone who bails early or is not sufficiently organized to asses the problem.

tl;dr Something other than technical skills happened during those 4 years

------
ianstallings
I think educators have made learning so prevalent throughout society, creating
learning infrastructure, that they now must adapt to their own success. A
person can basically use the same mechanisms that the educators created to
teach themselves in their home or work. It's proof of success that they now
must incorporate this into their institutions.

------
jey
Wow, that's even better than the University of Illinois at Springfield, which
requires you to do 4 semesters of online courses.

------
bphogan
This is so they can ride out the end while the degrees mean something. I live
in WI and am familiar with what's going on here with the higher-ed budget.

If you give people a test they can take online, how long do you think it will
be before the answers get out there and people are just easily getting
degrees? The degrees will mean less than they do now.

I can tell you from both the student side and the teacher side that students
who cannot perform the tasks required in their field can still pass tests. The
"fizz-buzz" failers, for example.

I will be 100% okay with this approach, however, if they are performance-based
assessments. The college I teach at is moving in that direction - students
must practice for and demonstrate the abilities for the competencies.

I've never been a believer in tests, so I like performance based learning,
especially for programming.

~~~
learc83
>If you give people a test they can take online, how long do you think it will
be before the answers get out there and people are just easily getting
degrees?

The tests are very unlikely to be online. The most probable scenario is that
they are proctored at local professional test centers just like nearly every
other distance education program.

~~~
bphogan
You think so? If students can never show up to a classroom, why would they
show up for a test? I've taken DE courses from a few different places - all of
them used the LMS for the final. No proctor needed.

Protoring costs money. The idea here is to charge for degrees while keeping
resources the same, or reducing them. I can give you a few online tests,
charge you $12,000 for an accredited degree, and we both win. You get a degree
without having to show up, and nobody has to extend resources other than a
little bit of time to grade your stuff.

------
hcarvalhoalves
That's the future of universities, they will be centers for research and
certification. Learning is a 24/7 activity nowadays.

------
znowi
Award a bachelor's degree based on knowledge, not credits - what a novel idea
:)

------
jkrez
Hey, someone's got to make money off of those free online courses...

------
ucee054
Distance learning has always existed, it's not a new thing invented by
internet people.

The problem has always been that University branding matters, so a Cambridge
degree counts as _real_ in a way that an Open University degree _doesn't_.
(<http://www.open.ac.uk/>)

In the same way, the new online courses are not _good enough_.
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_innovation>)

This problem has been _bad_ because some people are hardworking and talented
enough but are excluded from places like Cambridge and Harvard for _socially
damaging_ reasons: the are from the wrong background, too poor etc etc.

It would always have been saner to separate the credentials from the expensive
on-site-tuition, so the poor kid from Madras would find it easier to get his
Cambridge degree (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan>)

But the University prestige has allowed places like Harvard and Stanford to
jack up the list prices of their fees, and their competitors nationally and
internationally have followed along. The top US places have been able to do
so, I have been told, because of the expansion of student loan availability,
leading to a pricing level that may not be feasible.
([http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-has-alarming-level-
of-p...](http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-has-alarming-level-of-pride-in-
institution-tha,30853/))

The result is that colleges may have priced themselves out of the market
([http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2116059,00.ht...](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2116059,00.html))
([http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-22/five-reasons-
colleg...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-22/five-reasons-college-
enrollments-might-be-dropping.html))

I hope more Universities do the right thing, and respond in an accommodating
manner, as Wisconsin has done, as a way to climb down from that tree. It's
about time. ([http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/01/25/public-
univers...](http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/01/25/public-universities-
use-moocs-steer-students-traditional-credit-pathways))

~~~
jacques_chester
Elite universities are priced like many other goods: the list price is not the
price most people will pay.

They set a very high list price and then offer "scholarships" because this
allows them to efficiently segment the market. If they did it the other way
around (cheap "base" price and then escalating prices), it would cause
horrible brand damage and arouse regulatory interest.

Financially, though, it's identical.

Notice how many retail places offer "cash discounts" rather than having
"credit card surcharges".

Financially identical. Psychologically, worlds apart.

~~~
ucee054
Nevertheless, the price most people pay is some factor of the list price and
that can be very steep.

For example, here is the price page for the Harvard MBA:
<http://www.hbs.edu/mba/financial-aid/Pages/cost-summary.aspx>

Harvard do not give more than 50% scholarships.

So we are taking about 54K over a 2 year period, just for fees, excluding
accommodation, food and health insurance.

That is enough to keep all kinds of people out. And this is for MBA, a course
that has a relatively high probability of leading to a job. The effect will be
much more acute for Art History.

~~~
wildgift
The MBA is a profit center. To see what it costs for poor kids, just look at
the undergrad scholarship policy. Odds are, they will get a free ride if they
have great grades.

