
Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance - grey-area
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance
======
spodek
" _Once he reached the conclusion that the NSA 's surveillance net would soon
be irrevocable, he said it was just a matter of time before he chose to act.
"What they're doing" poses "an existential threat to democracy", he said._"

Thoughtful people brave enough to blow whistles seem to be the greatest check
on what looks like a secret, unaccountable, illegal centralization of power
based on lies from the top of the government on down.

Many powerful people will see him otherwise. I shudder to think of what will
become of him, though I'm sure we'll see it played out in headlines.

Whistle-blowers are not our only defense, however, as we all have power too,
for example contributing to the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF):

" _His allegiance to internet freedom is reflected in the stickers on his
laptop: "I support Online Rights: Electronic Frontier Foundation," reads one.
Another hails the online organisation offering anonymity, the Tor Project._"

My personal favorite is the Freedombox project:
[https://www.freedomboxfoundation.org/learn](https://www.freedomboxfoundation.org/learn)

EFF: [https://www.eff.org](https://www.eff.org)

(By the way, I don't know about anybody else, but for the first time I can
think of, I'm seriously concerned about the consequences of posting support
for somebody like this online. I don't know how things will play out years
down the road and who will do what with this information.)

EDIT: Followed up by posting the above on my blog --
[http://joshuaspodek.com](http://joshuaspodek.com) \-- based on comments
below.

~~~
jamesaguilar
I think it's almost certain the guy will have some problems not long in the
future. One question that comes to mind is how a supposed _intelligence_
organization allowed someone who subscribes to EFF thinking even come to know
about this surveillance. Shouldn't the NSA be doing some kind of screening to
make sure the people they hire don't have ideals diametrically opposed to
their practices?

~~~
tome
It's weird. On the one hand he makes them sound all-knowing. On the other hand
they sound completely incompetent.

~~~
rhizome
He makes the point that a chief purpose is, to repurpose a previously-
ridiculous term, "backtracing." They are all- _having_ , but that says nothing
about what they currently know, which, as the existence of surveillance
practices in recent history shows, didn't help with respect to e.g. the Boston
Marathon bombers.

------
bcn
_Q: Washington-based foreign affairs analyst Steve Clemons said he overheard
at the capital 's Dulles airport four men discussing an intelligence
conference they had just attended. Speaking about the leaks, one of them said,
according to Clemons, that both the reporter and leaker should be
"disappeared". How do you feel about that?

In Dulles UAL lounge listening to 4 US intel officials saying loudly leaker &
reporter on #NSA stuff should be disappeared recorded a bit — Steve Clemons
(@SCClemons) June 8, 2013

A: "Someone responded to the story said 'real spies do not speak like that'.
Well, I am a spy and that is how they talk. Whenever we had a debate in the
office on how to handle crimes, they do not defend due process – they defend
decisive action. They say it is better to kick someone out of a plane than let
these people have a day in court. It is an authoritarian mindset in general."_

-From the written Q & A, [http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblowe...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-why)

The tweet by Steve Clemons-
[https://twitter.com/SCClemons/status/343392529913356289](https://twitter.com/SCClemons/status/343392529913356289)

~~~
GabrielF00
How did he know they were "intel" officers? Were they wearing badges? Even if
they were some of the thousands of people who who work for intelligence
agencies, is there any reason to believe they would have any authority in this
matter? Sounds like some guys talking shit at an airport. There's a lot of
hysteria regarding this issue which is distracting from a real debate on the
underlying issues.

~~~
MarciaPetros
Shop talk is indicative of a general mindset and attitude. "Spies" are not in
the business of serving due process. That is the job of lawyers and judges.
You would therefore expect that kind of attitude--"if we could, we should just
disappear them."

Of course it's shit talk and it's not going to happen. That wasn't the point
though. The point was about the attitude.

~~~
ams6110
Intel officers are also not in the habit of "talking shop" in airport
lounges... at least they shouldn't be. Even working in a non-classified
capacity with a big consulting firm, one of the first things they warned every
new employee was never talk about clients or work in public spaces.

~~~
MichaelSalib
The CIA did an extraordinary rendition in Italy a few years ago without
telling the Italian government. A magistrate investigated and discovered the
real names of a dozen or two CIA officers. That was easy because they gave
their real names to the hotel and airlines so that they could collect points
and miles. Their real names. This is the quality of CIA tradecraft.

If the CIA is filled with officers who give out their real names to every
corporate chain that asks nicely, do you really think they're smart enough to
keep their mouth shut in public?

~~~
Zakharov
Eh, there could be good reason for that. Using a fake identity could arouse
suspicion, even if it is advantageous once the rendition is discovered.

~~~
MichaelSalib
These are CIA officers, engaged in a major crime. They have non-official cover
identities that are supposed to be used for operations. What possible reason
would justify using your real identity when committing serious crimes rather
than your agency provided non-official cover identity? Do you think the CIA
doesn't know how to make decent cover identities by now? That they're so bad
at it that United Airlines or Hilton Hotels will be able to see through them?

~~~
rdouble
Following the lead of corporate America, the CIA has largely given up on
having Americans do actual work. CIA agents are managers, and they source
local people to do the dirty work. If there's one thing professional managers
love more than meetings and power point, it's travel rewards points. As a fan
of spy novels and movies, it's a bit sad to think about how in real life,
national security could be compromised by an enemy agent offering platinum
upgrades.

------
grey-area
A fascinating interview with the NSA whistleblower, which ends with a chilling
prediction of where the logic of manifest destiny and exceptionalism will lead
the United States:

 _There will be a time where policies will change, because the only thing
which restricts the activites of the surveillance state are policy, even our
agreements with other sovereign governments; we consider that to be a
stipulation of policy, rather than a stipulation of law. And because of that,
a new leader will be elected, they 'll flip the switch, say that because of
the crisis, because of the dangers that we face in the world, some new and
unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power, and there will
be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it. It will be turnkey
tyranny._

\- Edward Snowden

Some strong allegations here - that anyone is fair game for surveillance by
the NSA, and that there is indiscriminate tapping of communications. Also some
strong justifications for blowing the whistle on these activities.

A hero for our times.

~~~
CamperBob2
Indeed. Snowden's decision, assuming we're getting the whole story, is what I
call a _true_ "Patriot Act."

------
doe88
He did something I'd honestly never have the courage to do if I were in his
position. He knows he will certainly pay for his action the rest of his life
but despite that he did it.

I'm not easily emotional but reading this article I had some heart bumps and
wanted to cry. I'm speechless.

Thank You Edward Snowden for your act of heroism, the present will certainly
condemn you but the history will certainly remind with honor people like you
who made progress our currently deficient democracies.

~~~
grey-area
_the present will certainly condamn you_

I think that's really down to us, don't you? The US Government will certainly
condemn his actions, but I doubt many of the public will.

~~~
sdoowpilihp
I would be shocked if information didn't come out about him that will
"discredit" him. More over, I am sure there are laws that if don't flat out
make leaks like this a crime, there are laws that can be interpreted in a way
as to make a credible enough case against him. That would tie him up in court
for years.

~~~
legutierr
What would they discover that wouldn't have disqualified him from holding the
security clearance he did? They would have to assert that their screening
procedures are deeply flawed.

~~~
michaelt
Either evidence that has come to light only now the guy's face and name are in
the news -OR- fabricated evidence made to look like that.

e.g. the police weren't able to find the coked-up hit-and-run driver who
crippled my adorable child but I'd recognize his face anywhere, and that guy
on TV is him for sure.

------
dylangs1030
> _" I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions," but "I will
> be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and
> irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed
> even for an instant."_

Exemplary. I am glad that men like he exist, bur I am genuinely fearful for
his safety. Look what happened to Bradley Manning.

I think it was a good thing that he revealed his identity so as to speak with
authority and be representative of the current events.

But I also believe it was done too early and too carelessly - the government
now knows exactly where to look for the leak and prosecute him to the fullest
extent of the law.

~~~
tomjen3
He would have to do that to protect himself. Nobody is going to take it
seriously when they discover child porn on his computer, or he turns out to be
a russian spy and he isn't going to rot in gitmo (or worse, the secret
prisions we don't even know about but which most certainly exist somewhere,
probably either in som eastern european country or in the middle-east). They
will have to try him in the US, and they would have serious problems on their
hands if they treat him like Bradley Mannning.

------
monkmartinez
Words escape. The brilliant aspect to this is asymmetrical release of
information. Keep this in the top news cycle as long as possible it seems.
Think about what is going on at the White House and NSA right now. They've got
to be thinking, "Shit, what are they going to release in the next 6 hours ||
12 hours || tomorrow?" Everything they say in public will be cast against what
is released in the future. F'ing Brilliant.

~~~
icelancer
Totally agreed. Greenwald has done a very good job of keeping this story "top
of mind" as best he can. Hopefully there is more to come from his camp.

~~~
tomjen3
I would say that hopefully there isn't more to reveal, from his point of view
or anybody elses, but I do suspect you are, unfortunately, right.

------
themgt
White House Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden:
[https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-
snow...](https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-
snowden/Dp03vGYD)

~~~
quackerhacker
Just as I was about to sign the petition (I've only signed 1 other one before
to revoke the Westboro Baptist Church, lol)....I plan to run a "successful,"
startup someday soon, do you think it's safe to sign a petition (esp when I
don't believe Aaron Swartz's demise was self-inflicted).

~~~
woah
Grow some balls.

~~~
quackerhacker
I'm not scared at all....just that I need to live for my kids :/

------
tome
_" I carefully evaluated every single document I disclosed to ensure that each
was legitimately in the public interest," he said. "There are all sorts of
documents that would have made a big impact that I didn't turn over, because
harming people isn't my goal. Transparency is."_

This seems commendable.

~~~
Perceval
Certainly better than Bradley Manning's approach of indiscriminate mass
disclosure.

~~~
Daniel_Newby
Indeed. I was amazed that The Guardian would characterize Manning as a
"whistleblower". Manning broke OPSEC and fed a lot of good people into the
meat grinder, rather than show why the _policies_ might be a bad idea.

~~~
sigzero
I agree. Manning's case is totally different.

------
jevinskie
I have colleagues in the defense industry. There are many people who are
aren't 100% on board with the ethics of their work but they do it because it
is a well paying job. So, while the culture isn't entirely subservient to
"orders", nobody really rocks the boat either. I am glad that Edward has the
incredible courage that he has displayed!

~~~
milhous
Their bellies are full, but their spirit's empty. This is the state of our
society.

------
pyvek
``He has had "a very comfortable life" that included a salary of roughly
$200,000, a girlfriend with whom he shared a home in Hawaii, a stable career,
and a family he loves. "I'm willing to sacrifice all of that because I can't
in good conscience allow the US government to destroy privacy, internet
freedom and basic liberties for people around the world with this massive
surveillance machine they're secretly building."``

Shame on us if we don't act and let this man's sacrifice go to waste.

~~~
smsm42
What you propose to do?

~~~
pyvek
First the people need to be made aware about how serious this is and why their
privacy matters. Then, people will have to get on the streets for
demonstrations and overwhelm their representatives with emails and phone calls
asking to do something about it. Similar to how SOPA/PIPA protests were
carried out.

------
lawdawg
Bravo Edward, and yet very little is said about PRISM at all. When will we
finally get to the bottom of what PRISM actually is? When will the public get
access to the entire set of slides? How much exactly did Edward know about
PRISM, or did he just stumble onto these slides and assume the worst?

So many questions, so few answers. Hopefully the coming weeks sheds more light
onto this.

~~~
mortehu
> When will we finally get to the bottom of what PRISM actually is?

Is there any particular reason why you don't believe the fact sheet from the
Director of National Intelligence[1] or Marc Ambinder[2]?

According to these sources (selected excerpts):

> PRISM is not an undisclosed collection or data mining program.

> PRISM is a kick-ass GUI that allows an analyst to look at, collate, monitor,
> and cross-check different data types provided to the NSA from internet
> companies located inside the United States.

> All such information is obtained with FISA Court approval and with the
> knowledge of the provider based upon a written directive from the Attorney
> General and the Director of National Intelligence.

1\.
[https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8dPmI7DfkxMejNyazZYMl93dlk/...](https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8dPmI7DfkxMejNyazZYMl93dlk/edit)

2\. [http://theweek.com/article/index/245360/solving-the-
mystery-...](http://theweek.com/article/index/245360/solving-the-mystery-of-
prism)

~~~
jdp23
I don't believe the DNI because of his testimony to Congress in February
claiming that the National Security Agency does not “wittingly” collect data
on millions of Americans. We now know they've been collecting data for tens of
millions of Verizon, AT&T, and Sprint/Nextel customers since 2006.

More recently he also claimed that PRISM wasn't a previous-disclosed data
collection program. It hadn't been previously disclosed before; and it is
collecting data.

So, let me turn this around. Is there any particular reason why you _do_
believe him?

Marc Ambinder's article, by contrast, is quite believable. But going beyond
the quote you pulled, he also has lists quite a few open questions about PRISM
collecting data on US persons. So it seems to me that we're still a long way
from the bottom.

~~~
mortehu
> More recently he also claimed that PRISM wasn't a previous-disclosed data
> collection program. It hadn't been previously disclosed before; and it is
> collecting data.

The grammar here is slightly confusing. Do you believe PRISM is collecting
data in a previously undisclosed way? If so, why?

~~~
jdp23
PRISM had not been previously disclosed. PRISM is collecting data.

~~~
mortehu
For now (until it's replaced by hits from blogs), you can Google for "Planning
Tool for Resource Integration, Synchronization, and Management", and you'll
get plenty of hits describing intelligence job positions and PDFs with
descriptions like "PRISM: A web-based application that provides users, at the
theater level and below, with the ability to conduct Integrated Collection
Management (ICM). Integrates all intelligence discipline assets with all
theater requirements."

------
cdooh
I'm not American but from where I sit this guy represents bravery of the
highest order and the tenacity(sp?) of the American spirit. I'd be extremely
proud to associated with him. He represents what we -the rest of the world-
most value about America, freedom of speech, expression and calling out wrong
damn the consequences.

------
lizzard
WOW. Thank you Edward Snowden. You are a hero, that is to say, a rarely decent
human being. Deep respect to you.

------
cromwellian
Seriously, Edward Snowden, China was your first choice to hide from the NSA?

Holy shit that was a bad choice for many reasons. I can't think of a worse
place to go, other than Russia or Iran with respect to the intense desire of
those nations to extract as many secrets about NSA capabilities as possible.
These are the most secret of the secret capabilities of US intelligence. He
even boasted that he knows many more secrets that he himself took care to
censor unlike Bradley Manning. I think China will be very interested in
hearing those redacted snippets.

Secondly, if he ends up revealing sensitive information to these countries,
any sympathy from the US population will turn into calls for frying him as a
traitor. Going to China makes him into a Rosenberg.

This guy doesn't seem very smart at all. And using pillow cases and shields
over screens to stop the NSA? You're telling me this guy doesn't know what
TEMPEST is? Didn't he see Gene Hackman in Enemy of the State? You need a
Faraday Cage.

~~~
joanojr
If he is in Beijing, I agree. Hong Hong is quite it's own place.

~~~
dude3
They'll come get him in Hong Kong. I meant the Chinese.

~~~
varjag
His public disclosure makes that exceedingly unlikely. At this point, China
would rather let Obama reap the shitstorm alone.

~~~
room271
Exactly, China doing nothing is a free PR win for them because they look
tolerant while the US is clearly attempting to close down discussion.

I think he made one of the best choices he could but, as he says, he can't
ensure his own safety anywhere really.

------
tome
_" I sitting at my desk certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone from
you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president if I had a
personal email"_

 _" I had access to the full rosters of everyone working in the NSA, the
entire intelligence community and undercover assets all around the world, the
locations of every station, we have what their missions are"_

Wow, is this guy for real? It sounds crazy.

~~~
joanojr
Yeah that part made me shutter, why the hell would he bring that up? Is he
trying to bait the US Gov somehow?

~~~
arkitaip
Do you honestly think his employers aren't aware of that fact? LISTEN to what
he's trying to say: no one - not even POTUS - is safe from being spied on.

------
corin_
This isn't particularly important, but I found it curious..

> _" I don't see myself as a hero," he said, "because what I'm doing is self-
> interested: I don't want to live in a world where there's no privacy and
> therefore no room for intellectual exploration and creativity."_

It's not self-interested in that way, really - had he chosen to be anonymous
(and never been found out) then that logic could work, but with where his life
is now, surely what the NSA does in America will pretty much never be relevant
to him personally ever again. And he must realise this himself, so I wonder
why he used those words - I guess modesty (or perhaps false modesty), but
would have thought he could have come up with a better way of being modest.

Maybe his motive was fame, maybe it was doing the right thing, hell maybe he
was depressed and looking for some excitement in his life. Doesn't really
matter to anyone except himself, and people should consider him a hero or not
based on whether they agree with what he did, not why he did it.

And I'd certainly call him a hero.

~~~
pohl
Wouldn't outing himself reduce the probability of being assassinated by those
he exposed? I'd guess he's safer with the eyes of the world on him.

~~~
corin_
Sorry I wasn't clear, when I talked about motive I meant for leaking the
information, not for outing himself. (Though obviously, some motives for the
leak would require the publicity.)

As to reasons for outing himself, _if_ he didn't want fame, etc., then even
assuming no assassination, if he were discovered and prosecuted the right way
(by which I mean, by the law, not right as in I think he should be
prosecuted), then chances are that by speaking to the media first (which he
sure wouldn't be allowed to do after being caught) he has a better chance of
getting the public to support him.

------
pdknsk
How likely is it he really is in HK, and not in some remote village in
Thailand? I'd prefer the latter, but tell the former. If he actually is in HK,
China might even offer him asylum and twist this in a huge propaganda victory.

~~~
brown9-2
If he is actually in HK, he might be more of an inexperienced and naive
idealist than anything else. Traveling to a territory with US extradition
treaty and under Chinese control seems very unwise.

~~~
khuey
Actually it's probably not a bad move. China is one of the few countries in
the world that would conceivably refuse to extradite him and protect him from
retaliation.

I think it's telling that Hong Kong is not in any way, shape, or form on the
way from Hawaii to Iceland.

~~~
brown9-2
Pretty sure the Chinese would want to know everything he does in exchange for
that.

~~~
khuey
Probably!

------
mschuster91
Truly, he deserves a Balls Of Steel award. I hope that that what is remaining
of democracy in the US will be strengthened by his sacrifice.

------
icelancer
Time for the Nobel Peace Prize Laureate to strengthen international diplomacy
and increase cooperation between peoples.

~~~
msvan
He's not gonna get the Nobel Peace Prize. Liu Xiaobo can get the prize because
pissing off China is not controversial, but the Norwegians wouldn't do the
same to the US.

~~~
icelancer
I'm referring to the winner from 2009.

~~~
corin_
Not sure why you weren't specific in your first comment, and then when it
became clear you had been confusing, you still didn't bother to name him in
your second comment. Apologies if you didn't intend it this way, but just
seems like you're being purposefully awkward.

~~~
icelancer
Because "strengthen international diplomacy and increase cooperation between
peoples" is exactly what President Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize for in
2009.

~~~
corin_
But clearly not everyone is going to know that. And your second comment, you
were clearly talking to people who didn't know it, yet still wrote something
that would cause those same people to have to google who that was.

~~~
icelancer
>yet still wrote something that would cause those same people to have to
google who that was.

I don't see this as a negative thing.

------
jacquesm
This guy is a hero for doing the right thing. Hopefully the NSA ranks will
find a lot more heros amongst their number in the future, it's one way in
which those that are the hands and brains behind these programs can redeem
themselves.

Unfortunately, with every Manning or Snowden that does their job there is one
more person to be made an example out of to show future wanna-be whistle
blowers what happens when you embarrass your three-lettered employer like
this.

I wish Edward Snowden a lot of good luck in the near future, and I wished he'd
chosen Iceland instead of Hong-Kong as his place to hang out.

------
brown9-2
It's quite baffling that a low-level IT contractor is given this much access
and also is making $200,000/year. Why is so much of government farmed out to
contractors?

Also, isn't there a large risk that someone at the bottom of the chain grossly
misunderstands the materials he is leaking?

~~~
EthanHeilman
Interesting fact, the low-level people in an intelligence org tend to have the
broadest access. It is the high-level people that are put in compartmentalized
verticals and plausible deniability (one of the latter DIRNSAs used to be
famous for trying to know as little operational details as possible).

IT needs to have access to all systems to install patches and such, strategic
decision makers just have access to need-to-know.

The KGB would always try to recruit people that ran the copy room and mail
room. Now IT is probably the biggest target.

~~~
brown9-2
Also ostensibly the people on the bottom are the easiest to recruit:
disaffected, least paid (at least before 200k/yr salaries), perhaps
uncommitted to mission or easy to mislead.

I don't understand why a low level IT person needs so much access though
beyond a need to fix systems - there's no audit control on who is accessing
these systems?

~~~
EthanHeilman
200k/yr isn't that high for an IT person with a serious classification. A
decent TS/SCI sys admin can be make +300k working for companies that want
secret government contracts. It does make them more difficult to bribe though.

There was no real access and audit control with Bradley Manning, just
unprotected SAMBA shares that contained sensitive data but not Secret data.
Top Secret systems do tend to have an audit trail (I think it is required
along with encryption) but I would expect that such systems can be accessed at
a lower level by IT. For instance pulling a backup drive and associated keys
to recover lost data from a "malfunctioning server". IT often has to work at a
level below the level that you places security safe guards at. I'd bet 1000
dollars that the foreign intelligence agencies have friendly IT workers at the
NSA that give them full spectrum access.

tl;dr Either you have IT that can do their job or you have systems which are
secure against IT, you can't have both.

~~~
brown9-2
300k? Is the clearance that hard to get? Or is it just a sign of how flush the
contractors are?

~~~
EthanHeilman
Its not that hard to get (>1 million US citizens have TS), but not all
clearances of the same name are treated the same by three letter agencies. The
NSA does not, by default accept, a clearance that you received elsewhere. The
biggest cost to getting a clearance is time, energy and risk. The easiest path
to a respectable TS/SCI is to join a TLA, pass all your background checks,
pass all your lie detector tests, work there for a few years making sure not
to do anything that could get your clearance taken away and then switch to the
private sector. During that time you work at TLA you get moved to a project
that uses technology that has little to no value in the private sector making
it more difficult to make the switch.

Disclaimer: I know this stuff from reading books and informal chats with
people at tech companies, please apply salt to taste.

------
JDulin
My first reaction at how public he is making his identity and why he disclosed
those documents was that he is seeking fame and flattery. But it's actually
the best thing to do.

By making sure the public knows who he is, where he is, and what he stands for
Edward Snowden has (hopefully) protected himself from the more nefarious
things American intelligence services may do to capture him by making them
impractical for the sake of public relations. China would no doubt be upset if
CIA agents nabbed him from a Hong Kong hotel. Plus, his fame gives an
incentive to nations to give him political asylum if they want to make a
political statement against the U.S.

------
SCAQTony
When I was a kid Russians from the CCCP wanted to defect to the USA... Now we
have American Edward Snoden seeking asylum outside the USA for trying to bulk
up the 4th amendment of the US constitution:

"...My predisposition is to seek asylum in a country with shared values. The
nation that most encompasses this is Iceland. They stood up for people over
internet freedom. I have no idea what my future is going to be. ..."

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/nsa-
whistleblowe...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/nsa-
whistleblower-edward-snowden-why)

------
rdl
I'm kind of surprised he's 29. Generally, whistleblowers tend to be very young
(and idealistic), or middle aged/old (with money problems, or facing political
setbacks, or feeling they have nothing to lose).

I personally am against granting TS clearances to anyone under ~30 and S to
anyone under ~25 due to the difficulty in doing background investigations on
people of young age (illegal to bring in stuff before 18, and it's really hard
to get useful information on pre-workforce people, both lots of false
positives and false negatives).

I would have suspected someone like Binney (older, political setbacks) or
someone much younger (PFC Manning).

~~~
nostrademons
...which makes me wonder if the actual reality isn't worse than I'd assumed,
with _actual_ widespread abuses and not just theoretical abuses.

From the video, it sounds like he was just ground-down by the cavalier
attitude of the people around him towards the citizens whose privacy they were
entrusted with. Eventually he couldn't reconcile that anymore with his
internal moral compass, and so he leaked it and figured "let the American
people decide". I don't get the sense of personal insecurity from him that you
assume with many other people who blow the whistle.

~~~
rdl
Maybe. I personally would never leak something I gained through employment to
the public; if I had been in his position and felt it was truly worth
leaking/sacrificing my career and freedom, I would have gone to NSA/DOD IG,
Congress, or a federal judge. (at a private company, to CEO/CFO/board or
regulators/police) There isn't much which would make me leak to the public but
_not_ take up arms (I mean, if somehow time traveling Nazis took over, I can't
see just leaking info and not killing them.)

I am glad his disclosures seemed at least somewhat contained, unlike PFC
Manning.

~~~
danenania
"I would have gone to NSA/DOD IG, Congress, or a federal judge"

He might as well have destroyed all the incriminating data and admitted
himself to Guantanamo of his own accord for all the good that would do.

------
wildmXranat
I'll be honest, I got a little teary-eyed while watching the video and feel
sense of immediate call-to-action driven by responsibility to not let his
actions go to waste. I'm thinking about what can be done by a Canadian like
myself. Other than support for the EFF and such, there must be a more local
way for us, the citizens of our respective countries to not let his actions to
have been done in vain.

------
peterjancelis
I have an extreme amount of respect for this guy.

Yesterday I made a snarky comment about how nobody believes this whistleblower
will lead a long and untroubled life, and while that's true it's not the
point. This guy is a hero in my book for doing this, and I am very happy to
see he seems like a very balanced and normal person.

------
electic
Neither NBC News or CNN is showing this on their front page. Odd.

~~~
grey-area
And at the time of writing, this is the biggest story on the NYT home page:

Theme Parks Let In the V.I.P.’s
[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/10/business/at-universal-
park...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/10/business/at-universal-park-a-vip-
pass-to-help-lift-revenue.html)

A Story about the price of tickets at theme parks.

------
miles
After watching the video, I am reminded of this quote from Gandhi:

 _Men of stainless character will easily inspire confidence and automatically
purify the atmosphere around them._

------
crapshoot101
All things aside, the naivety to think that China (and yes, I recognize Hong
Kong is not exactly China, but it is damn well under the jurisdiction of the
PRC) is where free speech is going to be defended? That's a guy who sounds
like he will be a propaganda coup for someone.

~~~
raphman
With the exception of Russia, I would guess that China is the least likely
nation to be coerced into extraditing him. If he is indeed in Hong Kong...

------
DoubleMalt
Now this will be the test for the "I have nothing to hide" philosophy.

a) Everything is legal and backed by the population, then the NSA didn't have
anything to hide.

b) The NSAs concedes that some people and organizations have a legitimate
interest in some privacy.

------
6d0debc071
It's very brave of him to give up anonymity, but I think he's effectively
committed suicide. I will not be surprised if someone comes forward to accuse
him of rape, or he's bundled into the back of a plane and taken somewhere
unpleasant, or gets killed in a convenient accident.

I don't get why he did it either. Gave it up that is. Depending on how many
people had access to that cross section of docs - and considering how
ineffective companies and govs usually are at segmenting info I imagine that's
quite broad - he could reasonably have hoped to avoid retaliation.

------
return0
Good thing that he came forward before he miraculously 'disappears' or is
otherwise arrested of some irrelevant crime. Unlike the Assange or Manning
cases however, this guy uncovered an actual abuse of power, so it's hard for
people not to sympathize with him and hopefully he won't be prosecuted
ruthlessly. If on the other hand the US (and allies) begin a new crusade
against him, it is literally a case of a government fighting its own people.
Leadership needs to be accountable and that cannot happen without
whistleblowers.

------
milhous
We must do whatever we can to help Ed Snowden and others who can no longer
turn a blind eye to the immoral and unethical machinations of government
business as usual. I encourage everyone to do their best in persuading others
not to work for the government, and companies that as Jake Applebaum put it,
are oppressors of the people. If the government devolves into full tyranny,
its politicians and employees will turn against the people, in the name of
"following orders" and "for the good of the country."

What's needed are successful, principled people like those reading HN to get
involved, and start mounting campaigns to ultimately defeat people in Congress
that egregiously curtail our freedoms and liberties. They must be idealistic,
rational, vocal, and be prepared to mount a vigorous fight and debate to stop
these violations. The politicians are easy to identify, as they advocate
perpetual increases in national security at any cost, for the sake of "keeping
us safe." The hacker community would back you. I would.

Elon Musk has said many times that the people respond best to precedents and
superlatives. It's up to us to effect change and talk about it as much as
possible, with friends, in our blogs, and our websites. People are receptive
to successful people, because they've shown that they can achieve and better
themselves.

We need a philosophical and cultural revolution in awareness, purpose, and
identity. How can it be done?

We must use our power as citizens and right these wrongs.

------
smsm42
* Secondly, the election of Barack Obama in 2008 gave him hope that there would be real reforms, rendering disclosures unnecessary.*

This is so sad. People really do believe what windbag politicians tell them on
TV and what paid talking heads on the same TV tell about them. It's not like
every single politician being elected promises to right all wrongs and fix all
evils. I can't even begin to get why seemingly intelligent people thought this
particular time is any different from hundreds of times before.

------
selamattidur
Hong Kong as his safe harbor from the U.S. government. I wonder what Kim
Dotcom would say about that.

~~~
gasull
Kim Dotcom's company was registered in Hong Kong, but Kim and his office were
in New Zealand.

~~~
selamattidur
Yes and the raid of his company illustrates the high level of cooperation
between HK and U.S. law enforcement, and that was only over movie downloads.

------
flexie
Very brave kid. I hope he will not be tortured and imprisoned.

------
wwwtyro
I'm extremely pleased he's so well spoken. Good luck, Edward Snowden.

------
rdl
The best near-term result from this would be to end the reliance of
NSA/IC/DOD/USG on private contractors and vendors of anything but the most
COTS of COTS products. End the contractor gravy train. No services. All
inherently governmental functions to be performed solely by current government
employees, at defense, law enforcement, or civil service wages.

The overt purpose is to prevent leaks.

The actual purpose is to remove the profit motive from expanding the military
industrial complex. This will both dramatically reduce the scope and reduce
the capabilities of the military and intelligence communities, so they will
have to focus on real threats with their remaining resources.

You also won't get anyone _good_ to do anything they don't truly believe in
for a GS-11 to GS-13 salary, whereas plenty of good people will do mildly evil
or at least banal stuff for $250k/yr contractor salaries.

------
sdoowpilihp
What is the most worrying about the revelation that Edward Snowden was the
whistleblower, is that he is a relatively low level employee, especially in
respects to security clearances. The material he would be able to get his
hands on is just the tip of the iceberg in regards to what the NSA does that
we would be outraged over.

------
zipfle
I'm really interested in how this plays out. I notice a couple of things:

1) From my vantage point as Not A Lawyer, it doesn't look to me like this guy
is subject to military law like Manning is. That should be interesting.

2) Manning was a private in the army. It seems to me that the purpose of what
they are doing to him is intended as a deterrent to his peers. I suspect there
is a difference between the way Army privates might react to one of theirs
being made an example and how Snowden's peers might react to whatever comes of
this.

3) I have no idea if the NSA is a fun place to work, but I bet it's about to
get a lot less fun, especially for anyone who's voiced support of the EFF.

4) Remember when Bruce Schneier said you should come forward if you know
something? That.

------
gyardley
Claims he doesn't want public attention or the story to be about him. Then, by
going public, he gets the public's attention and makes the story about him.

When I read this article, I cringed. Now everything gets to be the Edward
Snowden show - his background, how he's being treated, his future plans, what
happens to him, etc etc etc. The more important issues will get completely
eclipsed by 'oh, what should or shouldn't the government do with this guy?'

I don't understand his actions at all. Why couldn't he just quietly switch
careers and go about his business, instead of the obvious famewhoring?

------
schiang
If the US govt decides to prosecute Edward Snowden, doesn't that basically
confirm every single accusation is true? So far there's been a lot of denials
from all parties involved. The govt is in a tough position.

~~~
pmorici
No, they would likely be prosecuting him for taking the documents that he gave
to the reporters. I don't see how that would confirm the _media 's
interpretation_ of those documents some of which appear to be slide decks
absent the context of the verbal presentation that probably went with them.
From this article it doesn't sound like he thinks anything legally improper is
currently going on. His point seems to be that if someone decided to change
the law tomorrow and do away with our rights then the technology is in place
to implement that very quickly.

------
quackerhacker
I'm usually against whistleblowers...but given Snowden's risk, acknowledgment
and sacrifices, FOR ONCE (Bradley aside), I do believe in Snowden's character
and motivation!

I do agree that it's only a matter of time before some media outlets demonize
him. Given his current position, I understand why he would disclose his
identity.

1) He has to know that they would suspect and/or discover him as the
whistleblower.

2) For his safety. The gov may not send a seal team in after him (esp. in
China territory), but nothing stops motivated bounty hunters.

------
msantos
It's time to bring this
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1264237](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1264237)
back to the front page...

> Cyberwar Doomsayer Lands $34 Million in Government Cyberwar Contracts [2010]
> [http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/04/booz-
> allen/](http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/04/booz-allen/)

------
mrschwabe
Does Edward have a blog or Twitter account or something we can follow him on ?

I realize the irony of the question but at the same rate, if he is already
accepting the 'authorities' will know where to find him - why not have some
form of broadcast to the outside world? So we know he's OK?

As I write this though, I remember his primary goal is to shine light on the
problem and not make it about him - so I understand if he's not interested in
an online presence for that very reason.

------
cromwellian
How could a CIA employee not know the blackmail techniques the CIA uses to
recruit agents? All intelligence agencies leverage debt, criminal records,
marital infidelity, or closeted gay behavior as leverage to "turn" a foreign
agent.

This has been documented by numerous ex-CIA employees, like Bob Baer.

So his turning point was finding out a Swiss Banker was setup in a bar for a
fall, and then offered a way out in exchange for information. He didn't know
this before applying for CIA work?

Give me a break.

~~~
cromwellian
Not sure why people are voting this down. That and the "using pillowcases
against eavesdropping" bit in the story are curious given any NSA employee
should know about TEMPEST.

I feel there's some embellishment going on about how a guy went from security
guard to master computer security dude, yet didn't know about basic signals
intelligence techniques and who was also naive about well known techniques
that all intelligence agencies use to flip people?

Tell me, whoever voted this down, would you take a job at a spook agency
without reading James Bamford or Bob Baer? More than likely, you'd take a job
at once of these agencies because you romanticized the descriptions of spying
in them.

Agreeing to work for the CIA and NSA as opposed to the FBI pretty much says
you're going to work at a "do be evil" organization. That's their whole
mission, to do things outside of the law.

------
ChrisAntaki
This man is a real hero. He actually put himself on the line to move society
forward. I feel like his release was the tipping point, people are starting to
wake up.

~~~
IAmAI343
You would think. I hope you are right but people seem a lot more preoccupied
with the Kardashians and Lindsay Lohan. Even smart people with college degrees
and everything.

------
shmerl
Very brave and honest act. What's sad about is that he's probably right in his
concerns. Most will just ignore this issue and move along as if nothing wrong
is going on. After all if people got so insensitive with giving up their
privacy on Facebook and etc., why would they worry about global surveillance?

Anyway, let's hope what Edward Snowden did can still shake some people up and
make them realize the extent of this problem.

------
bryanwbh
Edward Snowden, thank you for your effort and your unwavering principle in
believing what is right!

You are definitely an inspiration to a lot of young people!

------
mkr-hn
So the watchman watches the watchmen. Interesting.

------
voidlogic
Ironic in Catch-22: "Snowden is a member of Yossarian's flight during a
mission, and acts as catalyst for the fundamental change in Yossarian's
mentality and outlook." [1]

Are U.S. Citizens Yossarian?

1:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yossarian#Snowden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yossarian#Snowden)

~~~
foobarqux
Is Snowden Snowden?

"He felt goose pimples clacking all over him as he gazed down despondently at
the grim secret Snowden had spilled all over the messy floor. It was easy to
read the message in his entrails. Man was matter, that was Snowden's secret.
Drop him out a window and he'll fall. Set fire to him and he'll burn. Bury him
and he'll rot, like other kinds of garbage. The spirit gone, man is garbage.
That was Snowden's secret. Ripeness was all."

------
jasonlingx
"On May 20, he boarded a flight to Hong Kong, where he has remained ever
since. He chose the city because "they have a spirited commitment to free
speech and the right of political dissent", and because he believed that it
was one of the few places in the world that both could and would resist the
dictates of the US government."

Oh sweet irony

------
danso
I hope this revelation continues to bring more clarity/transparency to what
PRISM (and the other revealed programs) and the role of U.S. communication
companies...But I have to say, it's admirable when a whistleblower puts not
only _actions_ , but their _name and life_ behind their convictions.

------
mehmehshoe
Is anyone else curious about the timing of all the releases? I am not
suspicious of the content but I am interested in the release dates of each
article and the sequence. It seems to me that each release needs the previous.
Like a slideshow or HBO drama.

------
myle
First they came for the communists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me,

and there was no one left to speak for me.

------
csears
Edward, if you happen to be reading this, I just wanted to say "thanks"

------
jgamman
anyone else noted the connection between the UK's Guardian newspaper ("a
charitable foundation existing between 1936 and 2008, which aimed to ensure
the paper's editorial independence in perpetuity, maintaining its financial
health to ensure it did not become vulnerable to take overs by for-profit
media groups") and the role of the fourth estate lately? begs the question -
can a govt be scutinised with a profit-seeking structure? implications for how
the IT industry has cannibilised their revenue model is left as an exercise
for the reader.

------
INTPenis
Let's not forget Mark Klein either, or history might repeat itself...

------
hanifvirani
Doing a video interview like this was a very smart move. I can only hope his
worst fear that he mentioned doesn't come true and that the people actually do
something about this.

------
thwest
There will be a special place in history for the likes of Snowden, Manning and
Ellsburg. I hope Snowden does not face the same torture Manning has been
subject to.

------
yekko
Give the man a medal "Hero of the Human Race"

------
basdevries
This man is a hero. He stood up for America and now it's time for all of us to
stand up for him. Nothing more to say.

------
yankoff
Some things I still can't understand.

* How the hell they are able to store all this data? * How they are able to search through it?

------
davycro
For this, he deserves the Nobel Peace Prize

------
losvedir
Inspiring. I was compelled to donate to the EFF after reading that, and I
encourage others, too, as well.

------
rasengan0
The price of freedom? About $3400 from Hong Kong, Hong Kong (HKG) to
Reykjavik, Iceland (KEF) via Air China. If you work for the gov then the
revolving door opens to corporate, where on earth is there a untouched
welcoming place?

------
lazaruz
A brave soul who deserves support.

------
bliker
So what are we doing now?

------
gburt
Wow.

------
mtgx
Exactly what I thought. They may say that they only target foreigners, but
nobody is actually checking that once the "general warrant" is signed by the
rubber stamp FISA Court. And pretty much any analyst should have the _ability_
to check any info on anyone, since they have all the data on everyone.

If that doesn't scare you and you still think "I have nothing to hide, nor
will I have anything to hide in the next 2 decades or more", then maybe
Americans will deserve whatever is coming their way.

Just know that the worse this gets, the harder it will be to get on the right
path again, because it's _very hard_ to change an oppressive government and an
oppressive culture, once you get to that point. And the worse the "solution"
will have to be to fix things.

------
yoster
This guy did a very brave thing for us. Hopefully, nothing bad happens to him
and his decision to not be anonymous is fucking insane...

~~~
tomjen3
I don't think it is as insane as you might think. He is guessing that the
government would figure out who it was that leaked the information and then
they would come after him.

The original law was on incredibly shaky ground however and the goverment
isn't likely to want this issue to end up in court ever, so they would have to
either terminate him (the nine-milimeter kind of termination) or prosecute him
for child porn or something like that, or disappear him. Right now his name is
published everywhere so they can't really do any of these things.

------
nicolly
[http://edward-snowden-45th-president-of-the-united-
states.co...](http://edward-snowden-45th-president-of-the-united-states.com/)

------
andyl
Hero.

------
venomsnake
Any rumors of legal defense fund for him? I have a feeling he will need it and
I am more than willing to donate.

~~~
wellboy
I can very well imagine indiegogo will work and show the will of the people,
similar as the NYT Ad for Istanbul

------
bsaul
I've stated in a previous comment on HN that i found it very curious to see
that the thing blew up right when China's president visited the US to talk
about cyber espionnage.

And now the guy says he's in asylum in Honk-Kong, and the reason he gives is
that it's because they respect free spech and political dissidents (pretty
much like the rest of China i suppose) !! ???????

What kind of a joke is this ??

