
Washington governor announces shutdown of restaurants, bars - cosmic_shame
https://www.governor.wa.gov/news-media/inslee-statement-statewide-shutdown-restaurants-bars-and-limits-size-gatherings-expanded
======
dang
All: the debate about economic effects vs. health effects is turning nasty in
places and could get a lot worse. Let's not go there. Please find ways to make
your substantive points that don't nudge HN threads in that direction.

If you comment, make sure you're up to date the site guidelines. Note this
one: " _Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what
someone says, not a weaker one that 's easier to criticize. Assume good
faith._"

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
hirundo
> All: the debate about economic effects vs. health effects is turning nasty
> in places and could get a lot worse. Let's not go there.

I disagree. I don't think the fact that a subject is a launchpad for abuse in
some threads is sufficient grounds for suppressing it elsewhere. Those are
frequently the subjects that need the most, and most non-nasty discussion.
Yes, very much, please, head the advice to steel-man your debate opponents
relentlessly. That's the proper response, not banning the whole conversation.
dang, I love you man, but your tendency to preemptively kill stories on
controversial topics, not so much. I can see that it makes moderation easier,
but the cost is high.

~~~
dang
Ah, I see I could have been clearer. By "go there" I mean let's not go further
into nastiness. I don't mean let's not debate—quite the opposite. Nobody's
killing the story or the discussion. The point is to discuss it in a way that
doesn't destroy the container, which is our ability to keep discussing things
in the future.

~~~
hirundo
Thanks for the clarification. I do see the strategy of preempting debate used
elsewhere on HN, e.g. re social justice or ideological diversity. I'm glad
that's not what you're signalling here.

~~~
dang
We don't moderate the site that way elsewhere either.

------
eyegor
This is going to be an economic catastrophe unless there's somehow a
nationwide bailout to literally all brick and mortar businesses. I know of
several local bar/restaurants that are considering shutting down for good, and
a colleague near Melbourne told me of 4 that already have (I'm eastern US).
Even if this all blows over in 3 months, we'll have a huge surge in
homelessness and folks needing social assistance across the board.

~~~
amiga_500
Suspend rent payments

~~~
ken
Without work, I can’t make hours to keep my health insurance, so I’ll be
forced to buy COBRA, which is just as expensive as rent.

(Or I could risk going without, while living at this continent’s ground zero
for a pandemic.)

Entire industries are being shut down. There are no easy answers here.

~~~
m0zg
Protip: COBRA is almost always more expensive than a comparable plan you can
buy from an exchange. Often hundreds of dollars a month more expensive if you
have a family.

~~~
omgwtfbyobbq
The only problem with getting a plan on an exchange is that you may need to
satisfy a deductible again. YMMV of course.

With COBRA I believe you can also pay your premium after the month it's due.
This can be advantageous because you can opt to not pay for your last month
before switching to another plan if you end up not using any services from
your COBRA plan that month.

------
dang
It's probably best if we aggregate these links in one place rather than having
a separate thread for each new location. (Similarly to what we did at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22550840](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22550840))

NYC:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22589463](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22589463)

California ("calls for", not enforced):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22587062](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22587062)

Others?

~~~
0xEFF
Ohio
[https://twitter.com/GovMikeDeWine/status/1239275883560648705...](https://twitter.com/GovMikeDeWine/status/1239275883560648705?s=20)

~~~
derwiki
Wow, the responses...

~~~
all_blue_chucks
People in Ohio think the virus is a liberal conspiracy.

~~~
dang
Please don't take HN threads into regional or political flamewar.

~~~
all_blue_chucks
That was an observation of fact.

------
topkai22
When talking about economic damage it is also worth thinking about what we are
trying to avoid in the US- if SARS-Cov2 gets to 60% of the population, then at
a 2% case fatality rate we are looking at 4 million excess deaths. Most
importantly, that is a humanitarian tragedy that we must avoid. However,
having numbers also let’s us put an economic value out there for what we are
trying to save.

A 1% reduction in the case fatality rate saves roughly 2M people. Let’s assume
that each would live another 10 years and that each person year is worth
$100k. That means a 1% reduction in the case fatality rate is worth 2 trillion
dollars. That’s roughly 10% of GDP. You can play with the numbers a bit, it’s
hard not to end up in the “taking a multi year recession might be worth it”
territory. Obviously, there are decreasing marginal returns to various
actions, but the it’s important to keep in mind the scale of what we are
trying to avoid.

~~~
hartator
Current total deaths are 6,000 with China already saying the worst is behind
them. Why the US would have 4M deaths?

~~~
rocha
Probably means 4M assuming that no containment measures are taken.

Like someone said on twitter, “In the end, it will be impossible to know if we
overreacted or did too much, but it will be QUITE apparent if we under reacted
or did too little.”

~~~
Data_Junkie
Right, the rich have nothing to lose, the poorer capitalists pay for the over
reaction. That's why we see an over reacting, panicking society, because the
rich benefit from it. It is the only reason they do anything, I hate to break
it to you.

~~~
rocha
If nothing is done, the least privileged will suffer the most due lack of
access to health services and a financial safety net.

~~~
Data_Junkie
But what is most assuredly going to happen is what benefits rich people. The
rest is collateral damage or pure luck. Is what it is, nothing new under the
sun.

------
Merad
IMO the only question now is how long it takes the rest of the country to
follow suite. Here in NC our governor announced the closing of all public
schools on Friday, but I've heard from several friends that in my city
(Raleigh) the downtown bars and restaurants were pretty much at normal
capacity this weekend. I don't think the general public is going to truly take
this seriously until they're told that they have to.

~~~
Cyph0n
I also live in the Raleigh area, and it has just been baffling how care-free
everyone is...

~~~
reedx8
The relevant facts are, one, only much older people have to worry about it,
and two, the cure already exists in washing yourself. This common flu is here
to stay, the absolute risk to vast majority of people is extremely
insignificant.

~~~
Taek
Covid19 is closer to SARS than the flu, and is known to cause permanent lung,
kidney, and testicle damage, even in young and healthy patients.

Even among young patients, the ICU rate is as high as 10%. A low mortality
rate for young people assumes access to an ICU.

All of New York State only has about 600 unoccupied ICU beds. If the number of
infections in New York breaches 6,000, the fatality rate among young people is
likely to be 10-20x that of the flu.

Young people need to worry about Covid19/SARS2

~~~
reedx8
Those are some important facts, thanks for sharing. I’d like to see the
probability of healthy people getting permanent damage however. That would
change my mind. Until then the extremely low fatality and infection rate for
average people, as well as the incubation period being so long that it’s
unrealistic to contain it, is enough for me not to worry about it.

~~~
CydeWeys
You're being selfish. Everything isn't just about you.

~~~
intopieces
reedx8's post is about reedx8's level of worry and personal risk assessment,
which is 100% about reedx8.

~~~
ncallaway
reedx8's personal risk assessment is only 100% about reedx8 if they have no
loved ones, and don't care for any lives other than their own.

------
caconym_
Good. Aggressive steps like this are the only way we'll get a handle on what's
happening. The alternative is exponential runaway and complete disaster.

Full disclosure: I live in Seattle.

~~~
Analemma_
Another Seattle resident here... I wonder if we're only a few days away from a
Hubei/Italy-style lockdown where you can't go outside except for groceries and
pharmaceuticals. Is there precedent for that in American history?

~~~
jandrewrogers
No precedent for it, and a lot of Supreme Court precedent against it.
Nonetheless, as an also Seattle resident, it has dramatically changed the city
through voluntary behavior of the population. This has been an incredibly
destructive blow to everyone in the formerly thriving restaurant and bar
industry in the city.

~~~
jumelles
[https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/us/coronavirus-
quarantine...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/us/coronavirus-quarantine-
questions.html)

> The C.D.C. rewrote its quarantine guidelines in 2017 and they have never
> been tested in court. The Supreme Court has also never dealt with an
> infectious disease quarantine case, [Lawrence O. Gostin, a professor at
> Georgetown University Law School who specializes in public health law] said.

~~~
jandrewrogers
Freedom of travel, upon which quarantine rests, has been thoroughly
adjudicated in diverse public safety contexts. It is unlikely that the court
will deviate dramatically in this specific case from centuries of precedent
regarding restrictions on travel relating to public safety. The CDC's
guidelines may be new but not unprecedented.

The outliers where the courts allowed the kind of special reasoning being
proposed here, which has happened on occasion, have almost universally enabled
shameful chapters in American history e.g. Japanese internment. Courts are
understandably reluctant to allow this kind of expedient violation of
Constitutional rights.

------
sershe
This may get downvoted, but I think the following judgement-free statement is
true: this is starting to look scary/serious /solely/ because of the measures
the governments are taking, and the media circus around it. Otherwise (while
it would have almost certainly "started to look serious" eventually, probably
for a short time), at this point, you would not have even noticed given the
actual numbers.

~~~
lm28469
Either you don't do anything and it eventually _gets_ serious, or you do
something and it _looks_ serious.

> you would not have even noticed given the actual numbers.

Surely you'd notice if 15%+ of your family's elders died in one year. People
don't seem to get that it's not so bad (health wise) as long as you take
serious decisions to slow the spread, so yes, you're right, it _looks_
serious, because it is, and it would be much worse if governments didn't do
anything about it.

~~~
sershe
That remains to be seen. The consequences of current actions, while the
current impact of the virus itself is basically nil, will be severe, including
extra deaths (and lack of births, for that matter - didn't occur to me to
count that but looking at demographic articles I realized it's also lives lost
in the net), and massive waste of life-years due to economic disruption that
will disproportionately affect the developing world, the poor and the young.
Which one is worse, I don't know, but over the last few days my opinion is
starting to change towards the latter being worse.

~~~
lm28469
> while the current impact of the virus itself is basically nil

You should read about Italy, and how they're running out of hospital beds.
Which means usually non life threatening issues are getting much more serious.

It's not a boolean choice between "saving lives" and "saving the economy"...
If you don't do anything: people get sick, sick people can't work, the economy
tanks, hundred thousand people die. If you do something, less people get sick,
the economy tanks anyway, but less people die. As it turns out it seems like
most government prefer prioritizing human life over money.

~~~
sershe
Most of the cases of the infection are mild. Nothing has happened yet (yes,
nothing - the number of deaths currently happening in Italy is still,
statistically, a blip), and yet already more people are not working for weeks
than what would if everyone got sick at the same time, given the working-age
mortality and complications rate. And we haven't even started yet.

It hasn't seemed binary to me before about this weekend, but it's increasingly
starting to seem binary as the over-reaction escalates.

------
DoreenMichele
_“Restaurants will be allowed to provide take-out and delivery services but no
in-person dining will be permitted._

I live an SRO. I don't have a kitchen. I currently don't have a fridge. I have
a small grill and some shelving to store stuff.

I eat a lot of takeout. I'm glad to see I can still get takeout.

But, wow. This is beginning to look pretty scary.

I was homeless for a few years. The quarantine/containment measures are
turning into a really big problem for the homeless population.

I don't even know where to begin trying to talk about that. At this point, I
find the whole homelessness in the US thing simply infuriating. We mostly need
to solve our housing supply issue and people are wholeheartedly against that
and it's just infuriating.

I will add that Little Caesar's now has a "pizza portal" where you order
online, pay online and enter a code to get your pizza yourself without ever
interacting with a person. I don't know how to scream this from the rooftops
so everyone gets the memo, but someone should.

~~~
zozbot234
> But, wow. This is beginning to look pretty scary.

> I was homeless for a few years. The quarantine/containment measures are
> turning into a really big problem for the homeless population.

How so? I assume that soup kitchens and the like will still be open.

~~~
azernik
It's not just about getting access to services; all of those homeless services
are _awful_ for limiting disease spread. Soup kitchens are going to force
people into relatively close contact.

~~~
craz8
And the volunteers tend to not show up in times like this, so it falls apart
pretty quickly

------
dkdk8283
I’m probably in the minority but I lean towards the UK model. My suspicion is
that the mortality rate is lower due to inadequate testing.

Call me a cynic but after 9/11 I’m weary of temporary measures that become
permanent in one way or another.

~~~
ncallaway
I'm going to go ahead and call you a cynic here.

Do you really think there's any way that the State of Washington will be
permanently banning events over 50 people?

Do you _really_ think there's any way that the State of Washington will be
permanently preventing the operation of bars, dine-in restaurants, and
entertainment facilities?

I'm generally pretty skeptical of creeping government powers myself, but this
just...doesn't seem like a place where the government is going to keep these
things shut down permanently. Which of these enacted bans are you concerned
about becoming permanent?

~~~
mardifoufs
No, but it could normalize doing all of that in the future. Giving up rights
once usually make these rights less untouchable in the future which doesn't
have to mean that the current measures will be permanent.

~~~
graeme
Counterpoint: the west has had quarantine measures in its traditions for
centuries, while developing the individual rights approach. We haven’t had to
use them much in living memory, but they were not permanent in the past.

Quarantine has been a necessary fact of human life for centuries. We just
lived in a blessed time.

~~~
mardifoufs
You're right and I don't necessarily agree with the original comment but
governments have a much bigger place our lives today than in the past. They
also have a much better ability to actually permenantly enforce those new
restrictions.

The patriot act and all the measures taken because of 9/11 are still here
simply since it is now so easy to keep them active which wasn't true in the
past at all. Not because they are needed. The same could happen in the future!

~~~
graeme
I agree it’s certainly something to watch for. One difference is everyone is
paying attention. People didn’t care about the details of the patriot act.

------
lsllc
Gov. Baker has done the same today in Massachusetts. A one month ban on on-
site service starting Tuesday. Any food establishment will be allowed to do
delivery or take out even if they didn't previously have a license for it.

[https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2020/03/15/charlie-
ba...](https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2020/03/15/charlie-baker-order-
gatherings-25-dining-in-restaurants)

EDIT: It's until April 5th, so 3 weeks not a month:

[https://whdh.com/news/all-mass-restaurants-and-bars-
ordered-...](https://whdh.com/news/all-mass-restaurants-and-bars-ordered-
closed-for-3-weeks-due-to-coronavirus-gatherings-limited-to-25-people/)

~~~
jimmaswell
A license needed for delivery/takeout? How is that justified?

~~~
Pfhreak
Handling food safely requires training and process. Delivering food is a
totally different environment than serving it in house.

~~~
jimmaswell
There is nothing complicated about putting food in a delivery box and driving
it somewhere.

~~~
Pfhreak
How many meals should you deliver in one delivery? In what order? Where can
the food be in the car? (Is it ok to put it on the floor?) How long can the
food be allowed to get cold before it's no longer ok to deliver? What are you
expected to cover, insurance wise, for your delivery drivers? How is your
business prepared if your delivery driver has an accident? How much do you
need to contribute to vehicle maintenance? Who owns the vehicle?

Yeah, I'd say it's definitely not just 'throw food in a box' and driving it
somewhere.

~~~
jimmaswell
As much as you want, whatever order makes sense, anywhere, yes, FDA says 2
hours in the danger zone, google the rest or get a legalzoom consultation if
you're unsure.

------
grosales
I have lived in the US for 20 years now - I am a millennial. I am originally
from Peru. When all of this started I thought the US was going to handle it.
We all were going to rally together and take care of each other. We would
exercise social isolation and hold this virus off. The rate the trend is going
should be scary for anyone (at least the people reading hacker news). I am
surprised of people thinking this won't affect them. If widespread and out of
control, it will affect everyone.

Funny enough that my country of birth, Peru, just declared a national
emergency and declared quarantine for everyone in the country. Peru is a
democratic country - at least for the last 20 years - but it had to enact this
to stop the virus from spreading. It's a bold move, it's not a popular one,
but it's the right one imho.

We should be doing the same, our current leader is - unfortunately - a coward
who will always be afraid of taking a risk. It's on us then, as responsible
citizens to make sure we don't go out unless we really need to for a while -
at least that we can control. Just my two cents.

~~~
ryanobjc
Americans are going to be handling it but the POTUS has multiple well known
weaknesses that was always going to cripple response.

Weird you expected better out fo him.

------
jeffy
This is overall a good move if we want a chance to greatly slow the spread.
However it needs to be coordinated with the rest of the country if we want to
minimize the total downtime. Shutting down Washington now and having to wait
weeks for Idaho to follow (where there are no reported cases) is just going to
force Washington to extend theirs as long as it takes for the last state to
shut down.

~~~
npo9
Small nit: Boise has one recorded case. It was recorded Friday.

~~~
graeme
How many tests have they done? The spread pretty clearly seems to be all over
the US at this point.

~~~
npo9
Right, the actual number of cases is almost certainly over 1. The parent
comment just said Idaho had no reported cases which is factually incorrect.
The first reported case was on Friday.

------
graeme
Anyone found any good info on the risks of food itself.

Eg kitchen staff is infected, coughs into meal

1\. Do you get if it’s cold food, like a salad or sushi?

2\. If yes, do you get it if it’s warm food, like indian food?

3\. If yes, do you get if you reheat/microwave the food? If so, what is
required/

Have not seen a lot of discussion about this. Did see that in china
restaurants would certify the body temperatures of all involved.

~~~
dpcan
It transmits in several ways, including droplets:

[https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/transmissi...](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/transmission.html)

And WHO says it lives on surfaces for a couple hours up to several days.

[https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/q-a-
coronaviruses](https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/q-a-coronaviruses)

So, personally, I'm not eating anything if someone coughs on it or around it.
I'm not even buying fresh fruit and veggies at the store right now.

I can't find any information about heating the virus to kill it.

~~~
ebg13
> _I 'm not even buying fresh fruit and veggies at the store right now._

Just cook it.

~~~
dpcan
Apples? Lettuce?

I mean, I cook some carrots, potatoes, broccoli, yes, but I don't want to risk
cross contamination at this time.

~~~
DoreenMichele
Pan fried apples are quite good and not hard to do. A little nutmeg and
cinnamon. A sprinkle of brown sugar. Maybe a dash of cooking oil.

Yum-my.

Also, you can go looking for historical dishes. Early Americans had recipes
that were heavy on things like cabbage and apples together because it might be
all you had left in the cellar towards the end of winter.

------
starpilot
Canlis (fine dining place, think Michelin) made a really interesting switch in
order to keep the lights on. They shut down their restaurant and are starting
a drive-thru burger stand, a bagel stand, and a meal delivery service, rather
than lay off all their workers. I'm going to try their burgers tomorrow.

~~~
blendo
I'd suggest they put a couple of picnic tables out in the parking lot for
take-out. Curious about other commercial operations that could satisfy the
rule "... all gatherings under 50 participants are prohibited unless
previously announced criteria for public health and social distancing are
met"? Take-out biergarten? Silent disco?

~~~
untog
> I'd suggest they put a couple of picnic tables out in the parking lot for
> take-out.

Why, though? The whole point is to stop people gathering in public places.

> Curious about other commercial operations that could satisfy the rule

Again, why? These rules weren't put into place as a challenge for
entrepreneurs.

~~~
blendo
I want to eat and drink with my family and friends. And it's spring, so I want
to do it outdoors.

A food truck with a couple of outdoor tables has got to be lower risk than a
full-service bar/restaurant, while still giving us human companionship.

~~~
untog
The combination of “I want” with “lower risk” (rather than “no risk”) speaks
to a lot of the problems we are facing right now.

------
troydavis
Puerto Rico also started a curfew that restricts movement except going to/from
work, grocery stores/pharmacies, or health care:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/us/coronavirus-puerto-
ric...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/us/coronavirus-puerto-rico.html)

I'm in Seattle and, other than these closures, complete movement restrictions
would be the next step here.

------
shartshooter
This is a good move. We’re obviously moving slower than we ought to and only
time will tell how late we are.

The one thing we, in the US, have been consistent in this is that we’re too
slow to act.

There’s obviously a risk of the pendulum swinging the other way but until we
see a down tick in cases we have to assume we’ve got ground to make up.

Case growth won’t start decreasing until social distancing is widely adopted.

~~~
marcosdumay
If a country discovers the measures are too strict, it can always reduce them
a little bit. The US looks like just a pair of weeks away from disaster,
acting now may be enough to make that disaster brief and having the situation
under control shortly after.

~~~
ddingus
The next 10 days are prime. We do this right now, isolate hard, or it will
look more like Italy than we would like.

------
A4ET8a8uTh0
Similar measures were just mandated in IL. Basically, take out and delivery
are your only real options. We are kinda stocked up, but we will both keep
ordering in just to keep local businesses going. Our family unit is oddly
priviledged during this outbreak.

Tbh, I am slowly starting to get worried as recent FED move again focuses on
banks and not on small business relief.

~~~
philwelch
The FED’s job is monetary policy. It isn’t to bail out businesses.

~~~
A4ET8a8uTh0
Yes and no. Its mandate is to keep the stability of the financial system,
price stability, full employment..

As you can see, bailing out businesses, as you framed it, could be helpful in
avoiding full fledged system collapse, which just happens to be their mandate.

edit: corrected opening sentence

~~~
pbourke
Anything the fed does affects large and perhaps medium sized businesses
directly. A couple of percent lower interest rate on their line of credit
matters fuck all for small business facing a total collapse in demand.

Same with SBA loans - how much paperwork will it take to owe a huge sum to the
government with an uncertain business environment in a few months? A lot of
small places will just close.

Fiscal stimulus is the only approach to keep these businesses afloat. Honestly
at this point it might be better to skip the middle man and cut checks to
individuals.

------
tinyhouse
Also in MA and other states. But VERY important to note: "Restaurants will be
allowed to provide take-out and delivery services".

------
icelancer
As usual, these announcements never come with any promise or a plan of
economic relief (or at least reference to plans already made) for businesses
force closed, creating more panic. I don't understand why it's so hard to just
say: "We will take care of the businesses affected by this policy and more
details are forthcoming."

Shutting them down is the right move. Taking care of small businessowners
running on thin margins - like mom/pop restaurants - is also the right move.

EDIT: Unless the government has no plans to help small businesses. Which is
completely possible and probably even likely.

~~~
klipt
Can't restaurants still offer takeout/delivery?

~~~
miscPerson
Many of them, no.

And bars, for instance, aren’t allowed to serve their primary purpose via
delivery. Or movie theaters. Or music venues. Or retail. Or....

It’s gonna be a mess, because we already know the government is going to fail
to alleviate the impact.

~~~
hawkice
Retail can't deliver... What is the primary non-deliverable thing you get from
retail?

~~~
Marsymars
The context was in harm to retail stores that can't do delivery, not in
problems for the consumer.

------
Shivetya
I expect many fast food to just follow Chik fil-a's example of going drive
through only. I was wondering when a state would take that option themselves.

Still like comments about original restrictions of larger gatherings, many
grocery stores and big box stores can have more people in them than a
restaurant and touching more items too

------
decebalus1
Good. Seattle resident here. Have been ordering takeout for the past two weeks
and honestly don't understand the large parties I've been seeing in local pubs
for the past week. I find it sad that this needs a 'proclamation' from the
Governor, when basic common sense is that you need to avoid crowds.

------
Leary
For places that don't want to close restaurants. Would it be legal in America
for the restaurants to check everyone's temperature before they enter the
premise (guests+ cooks+ waiters).

Wouldn't be perfect but could slow transmission down while giving them a way
to earn money.

~~~
ddingus
People are contagious the entire time.

Right now matters, this is why:

[https://old.reddit.com/r/WeAreNotAsking/comments/fitsej/covi...](https://old.reddit.com/r/WeAreNotAsking/comments/fitsej/covid19_next_week_is_critical_isolate_to_the/)

Basically, we have one shot at this. Max number of unidentified transmitters
coupled with max number of potential infected people.

Depending on how many of us will, can isolate hard, 20 days from now the wave
of sick, and weaker people hit the hospitals.

We have a 5th the beds per 1000 compared to many of our peer nations.

------
cozzyd
Illinois governor Pritzer announced the same about 8 hours ago starting
tomorrow evening (takeout / delivery would remain open). Conveniently aligning
with the closing of schools I guess. I strongly expect tomorrow will be my
last day in the office for a while.

------
Leary
I know this probably won't be enough, but how about tax exemption for all
business affected by shutdown order in 2020 paid by the federal government

------
Phylter
They've done this in Illinois too. What's happened is people are self-
isolating to prevent the spread even though government is pleading with them
to do so. So, they're having to force the issue. If people still don't get the
hint they'll have to put curfews in place.

~~~
Phylter
At this point I hope they do. I'm sick of seeing the governor pleading on
television and people not taking him seriously. I have friends that literally
don't get that this is much more serious than the flu. There are daily posts
on Facebook about how it's a conspiracy of the government to control us or
there's posts about how this illness isn't worse than any flu that's come
through and it's going to bankrupt people. Just sick, ignorant people that
don't give a rats.

------
gnulinux
This is good. You can find in this thread that other states are following the
suit. This _might_ , just might if we're lucky, that the curve will start
becoming quadratic and then logarithmic.

------
jakeogh
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22583594](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22583594)

------
tayo42
How long does this go on for? Realistically we can't just live with the world
shut down (can we?) with a vaccine far off, this can't be the new normal?

~~~
freeone3000
I think we're about to find out very quickly exactly how much labor is
nonessential.

~~~
ken
We’re going to find out which can work remotely. The “I can haz cheeseburger”s
will survive while every arts organization goes under.

------
CriticalCathed
It has been refreshing to see the mask come off of those feigning care about
"undesirables" who would be disproportionately affected by this virus. At the
end of the day we come down to economic calculations to decide whether to let
hundreds of thousands to millions of people die in this country.

The moral choice isn't always the most efficient one. I wonder if we will have
the courage to make the moral choice?

------
thrownaway954
not trying to be a wise ass in anyway, a legitimate question .. i'm wondering
do you have to shutdown a bar that still allows smoking? can the virus even
survive on surfaces and in the air if tobacco smoke is present?

~~~
disgruntledphd2
Smokers are a higher risk group for Covid-19, so you should probably avoid
such bars, even if they weren't going to be shutdown.

------
alexmingoia
California Governor has just done the same:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22589365](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22589365)

~~~
popz41
Gov. Newsom is only providing "guidance".... The local bars by me are
promising to stay open since its not a legal order :(

------
whiddershins
NYC too

------
js2
Aside, but I want to call out Miami Dade Public Schools for being the only
public school system I'm aware of that has had a contingency plan in place for
years:

 _On rare occasions it may be necessary to close a school(s) due to weather or
other emergency situations. If this occurs, the district will make every
effort to ensure that our students ' educational opportunities continue while
at home. Throughout the years, the district has compiled a comprehensive
collection of online content and digital resources. The district also provides
mobile devices for students to check out for home use to ensure that district
students (non charter) can continue their learning without interruption.

...

The Instructional Continuity Plan (ICP) has three components: Content
Delivery, Mobile Devices, and Internet Access. Content Delivery explains which
resources students will use for core instruction and which materials can be
used as supplemental resources to enhance core instruction. Mobile Devices
provides the steps the district is taking to ensure that any student who needs
a mobile device to access the instructional resources will be provided with
one, upon request, for the duration of the schools' closure. ... Internet
Access poses the greatest challenge to ensuring that M-DCPS students can
continue their studies while at home. The district has taken steps throughout
the years to assist students in getting access to the internet at home through
projects such as The 1Million Project; however, partnerships with service
providers is crucial to providing free or reduced-cost internet service to
students should the district close in case of emergency situations._

[http://icp.dadeschools.net/#!/fullWidth/2943](http://icp.dadeschools.net/#!/fullWidth/2943)

Also:

 _Miami-Dade County Public Schools (M-DCPS) is continuing its efforts to
provide support to students and their families during school closures, which
begin tomorrow, March 16. From distance learning, to community feedings, to
facilitating childcare for essential medical personnel, M-DCPS stands firm in
its commitment to support the South Florida community during this time of
uncertainty.

A support hotline was established for teachers, students, and parents seeking
assistance with distance learning.

During school closures, students and families may pick up hot meals to go,
both breakfast and lunch, between 9:00 a.m. and 12:30 p.m.

A Mental Health Services hotline will be available for students.

An Employee Assistance Program hotline will also be available._

[http://covid19.dadeschools.net/#!/fullWidth/3024](http://covid19.dadeschools.net/#!/fullWidth/3024)

In contrast, I am extremely disappointed in how haphazard things are going in
NC. I'm particularly disappointed in the UNC system which appears to have done
zero advanced planning.

~~~
dillonmckay
Hurricane prep helps with lots of emergency scenarios, it seems.

~~~
js2
I don't think this is hurricane prep. I was in Miami for Andrew. Hurricanes
knock out power for weeks. Kids wouldn't be able to learn from home during
that. I can't really think of another scenario where kids are stuck at home
while infrastructure is all fine other than the one we currently find
ourselves in.

~~~
dillonmckay
I agree, but if you are prepped for a hurricane, you should be ok in this
scenario.

We still have water, sewer, power, and internet.

------
nimbius
one has to wonder. If this virus didnt disproportionately target baby
boomers...would we still see this level of response?

------
boznz
My Daughter was working as a temp between jobs and the work has now been
stopped, she had two second interviews planned in Sydney this week now both
positions have been retracted and nobody hiring or interviewing, she has about
7 weeks of cash savings and 4 months lease on a rental. Oh and no unemployment
benefit or subsidies as she is New Zealander working in Australia.

Young People at the lowest risk from this virus are going to be much worse off
than just catching a fucking bad cold.

The UK's answer to the problem is starting to look a lot more sensible than
total economic chaos being caused by all other methods.

Happy to be downvoted to nothing because I am so over this.

~~~
sdkaufman
> Young People at the lowest risk from this virus are going to be much worse
> off than just catching a fucking bad cold.

It's not a "fucking bad cold" for young people.

\- Over 50% of ICU patients in Netherlands from COVID-19 are under 50. [1]

\- Over 50% of ICU patients in France are under 60. [2]

\- Over 40% of patients requiring hospitalization in China were under 50. [3]

Young people are not invincible. The fact that they can use up a significant
chunk of already scarce medical resources suggests that we really shouldn't be
sending that message and encouraging young people to not give a sh*t about the
epidemic.

[1] [https://www.ad.nl/dossier-coronavirus/40-a-50-nederlandse-
co...](https://www.ad.nl/dossier-coronavirus/40-a-50-nederlandse-
coronapatienten-op-intensive-cares-meer-dan-de-helft-is-onder-de-
vijftig~a058aad2/)

[2] [https://www.motherjones.com/coronavirus-
updates/2020/03/300-...](https://www.motherjones.com/coronavirus-
updates/2020/03/300-people-with-coronavirus-are-in-intensive-care-in-france-
most-of-them-are-under-60/)

[3]
[https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2002032](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2002032)

~~~
kqr
Those numbers measure the wrong thing. The proportion of young people in care
means nothing without knowing also the proportion of young people infected.

~~~
blueblisters
South Korea had a large proportion of young infected people:
[https://medium.com/@andreasbackhausab/coronavirus-why-its-
so...](https://medium.com/@andreasbackhausab/coronavirus-why-its-so-deadly-in-
italy-c4200a15a7bf)

------
marshallant
Can't wait to lose my job over this complete overreaction to this virus.

------
acoderhasnoname
Great action, well done

------
cheunste
Welp, I guess my trip to Sakuracon is officially cancelled...again.

~~~
elliekelly
heaven forbid you miss a weekend of fun so that some of our fellow humans
might live

~~~
dang
Personal attacks are not allowed on HN. Please review
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
and please don't post like this here.

Note this one: " _Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of
what someone says, not a weaker one that 's easier to criticize. Assume good
faith._"

------
sytelus
Most restaurants around here already had 1/4th of customers and almost never
over 10 at a time sufficiently distanced away. It still provided workers to
come in any way and get whatever minimum wage they can. I feel this move is
boneheaded and is just a knee jerk reaction without actually knowing the above
fact. Most folks working in restaurants don't even have a week worth of
savings. They don't have investments or own homes. They still have to pay
rents pretty soon. Governer is ignoring all of these to make an appearance
that he is making swift aggressive action. He has made zero provisions for all
of these people who will be on the verge of losing their roof. The least he
could have done would be to mandate no evictions during these closures so the
financial load is transferred to rich rent collectors and investors with
sufficient fat as opposed to these poor people.

------
ryanSrich
This feels like a much worse outcome than just taking the virus on the chin
and letting 40-70% of the population get sick. That may seem contrarian, but
this panic feels worse than the actual virus. More people will die from
economic hardship than from COVID.

~~~
JamesBarney
You're talking about conceivably millions in the U.S. alone.

55% * 6% fatality rate * 330 million is >10,000,000.

That's a lot of people to sacrifice to keep bars and restaurants open.

~~~
ryanSrich
6% where are you getting that number? The highest I’ve seen is 3% and that’s
in people older than 80...

~~~
JamesBarney
[https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3...](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099\(20\)30195-X/fulltext)

So our best sets of data are the WHO analysis of Wuhan which puts it at 5.6%.
And the diamond princess which gives us a 1% fatality rate. But here's the big
catch, those infected on the Diamond Princess got all of the medical care they
needed.

And the issue is once our healthcare system gets overwhelmed the rate will
shift from 1% up to the 5.6% (And Wuhan could have gotten much worse)

~~~
marvin
Also, South Korea was around 1%. It's a number that has grown in credibility,
unfortunately. I was hoping 0.1%.

~~~
JamesBarney
It's awful when you consider that losing 1% of the population is the best case
scenario.

