
Pre-orders start today for Flame, the Firefox OS developer phone - diggan
https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/05/flame-firefox-os-developer-phone/
======
valarauca1
A lot of the misgivings most developers seem to have in this thread have to do
with the physical hardware specs. Which I hate to use this term but this is a
side effect of "1st world privilege". FireFoxOS/Phones were designed for
emerging markets [1]. In the West dropping $500+ USD on a smartphone is not
uncommon (Or to sell retail phones for this price). While in 'emerging
markets' like China/India/Brazil/etc. 500 dollars can be 4-6 months worth of
rent [2].

[1] FireFoxOS presentation at mobile conference circa 2013

[2] numbeo.com

~~~
derekp7
What really "grinds my gears" is that when you want to use a particular mobile
OS, you have to go out and buy a specific piece of hardware. I want to be able
to choose from a range of phones, and then select the OS for them. Even if
that means the OS is installed on a micro SD card, or even a variant of the
SIM card.

~~~
JVIDEL
You can install FOS on a lot of devices, been available for a while now, same
as Android itself and Ubuntu Phone or Sailfish.

What you are saying only applies to iOS really.

~~~
gareim
Forgetting WP? And even Android? Can you go out, buy a Lumia, and install a
working copy of Android?

You can install Android on devices that are already running some version of
Android. And some fringe cases like the HTC HD2 and HP Touchpad (I had both,
the Touchpad didn't work too great). But that's far from what the OP was
asking for.

~~~
hrrsn
That's a lot of work for a feature that probably wouldn't excite most
consumers.

------
soapdog
guys, this is not aimed at the general public. These are unlocked phones for
developers. They have features to make it easier to simulate different memory
constraints and run different versions of Firefox OS.

This is not a plan or a move or an intention of Mozilla to get into hardware
making. This is just a program to empower developers to have the tools to
better develop and test their apps.

~~~
hardwaresofton
I disagree a little bit -- why not for the general public? reference
implementation phones aren't necessarily just-for-developers -- i.e. nexus
line...

~~~
serf
extra costs incurred to the consumer for features that they're unwilling to
pay for normally. (software ram limiting, dual sim, OS
revisioning/partitioning, etc)

~~~
hrrsn
Dual SIM is hugely popular in non western countries and I would expect any
phone to be able to wipe and restore it's OS.

------
fred_durst
There seems to be a fair amount of comments comparing the specs of this phone
to other phones etc.

To clarify, this is a reference device. Meaning that having all of the
functionality, like a front facing and rear facing camera, is the primary
goal. They cannot make comprises by removing features of the phone, like many
lower end phones do, because the point of the phone is to test how these
things work in your application. A faster phone or higher screen resolution is
much less important for this device than including all of the hardware
functionality a developer would be targeting with their application.

------
badman_ting
The purchasing flow is confusing as shit. I paid with PayPal and entered all
my info, now I'm going through again and adding the same info again, and it's
asking me for payment info? Arggggggh.

And the only reason I went with Paypal was so I wouldn't have to create an
account with whatever the hell "EverBuying.com" is. Argghghghgh.

Edit: I gave up. So probably, I will be charged for this phone because I
completed the PayPal payment but didn't complete the crazy-ass purchasing
flow. I'm kind of blown away by how shitty this is.

~~~
gcb0
loL. try to buy one of the commercially "available" phones then. first they
are not sold thru the operator normal channels. they have a firefox phone
"hotsite"... which is common in 3rd world countries.

but usually that hot site wont even work on mobile browsers for some reason.
when it works, you get a message that they are out of stock.

saying people from any country buy those phones is a lie. i know because i
tried. both mexico and brazil.

in mx i did get one after 30days trying, and via channels no regular consumer
would go thru. and all 3 employees in the store were very curious as to why i
was buying that phone, which nobody wanted, that they didn't even remember
they had one in stock... and if you ever worked in retail, you would know that
it has to be really odd for a salespeople to question a sale....

~~~
badman_ting
It seems they don't really care about people being able to actually purchase
their devices. Bizarre, and frustrating.

------
asadotzler
The phone cost is $145 plus S&H which is $25.

This phone has the precise set of hardware specs that Mozilla is developing
Firefox OS against this year. It's more phone than some need (not everyone
needs dual SIM, but it's in there) and less than others need but that's what
you get with a reference device.

------
hardwaresofton
Software-configurable RAM? Hopefully the device comes with 1GB and you can
just limit your RAM to 256MB if you wanted to?

~~~
mbrubeck
Yes, that's correct. The goal is to allow developers to see how their app
works on a memory-constrained device during testing, while also using the full
1GB during regular use.

------
ww520
What is a good cross platform development framework and stack that works well
on Flame, Android, and iOS?

Does this list work ok?

\- PhoneGap/Cordova for native access \- jQuery Mobile for UI widget \-
Bootstrap3 for responsive layout \- jQuery for DOM access \- Knockout for
dynamic update \- Toastr for non-blocking alerts \- Amplify for
data/storage/messaging \- Underscore for general

Is html template system needed? Given that jQuery Mobile widgets are already
used to build the UI.

~~~
hrktb
jQuery Mobile is mostly for low spec phones or very broad compatibility. If
the target can be narrowed to decently speced Webkit engines and firefox,
there is no need for an extra abstraction layer.

Also PhoneGap should allow the data storage, so amplify might nit be needed ,
except for cache management perhaps ?

~~~
ww520
What's a good alternative for targeting mobile only (no need for website)?
Sencha? Intel App Framework?

~~~
hrktb
I don't know much about the intel framework, they seem to be really all over
the place. Sench seems tried and true, I don't have enough experience with it
to say much, except that it's a lot more flexible than building the UI in
PhoneGap/Cordova in terms of widgets and controls.

------
bttf
An unlocked phone with an open OS, tailored for development. Good.

~~~
gcb0
unlocked... but you still need binary blobs for anything to even work.

why do they litter the earth with that garbage? a low tier phone with no
requirement for binary blob drivers would make more impact than that mid tier
phone. since that is exactly the same phone i can get if i buy a 2~4 yr old
android phone on craigslist. 100% identical outcome.

~~~
teacup50
Who cares about binary firmware blobs? How is that any different than device
firmware burned into an EEPROM, written to flash, etched into ROM, etc?

Hardware is _full_ of software. The line you create in the sand is arbitrary.

~~~
gcb0
You have no idea what you're talking.

for example, google nexus devices. They are "open" but the drivers for audio,
radio, video, digitizer, etc are not. The chip providers give source to Google
but only allow compiled distribution.

So Google makes two versions of Android before ignoring the device. If you
want to continue using device with a third version, you either hope that
loading same binary drivers work or you reverse engineer them.

As you can imagine, nobody is able to do that for every version, so even
though the nexus is open, you will ever only have two versions on Android on
each.

Same happens with Firefox phone i had, and will probably happen here because
it's a midtier phone. If it was a low tier there were changes they could find
some components the manufacturers didn't care about sharing source for
drivers.

------
gcb0
firefox phones for devs are a scam.

i have several in the drawer. all beyond useless.

i use the emulator mostly. when i have to test multitouch or perf, i use an
old-top-of-the-line-android that cost me $50ish on craigslist. why? because
all the official firefox phones are useless. crappy touch screen. etc.

yeah, they say we should use the device people are using, but the point is,
nobody uses them if not for firefox devs! also no hardware drivers when you
want to flash some other kernel. just like with a android phone repurposed.
so, why???

and if anyone thinks real people buy those, i challenge you. take a plane to
mexico where the alcatel one is even advertised on billboards... and buy one.
i tried. if you manage to find one at any store, i will reimburse your trip.
they dont even sell it! nobody buys it.

in the end, those phones only secure a tiny margin for a manufacturer that
would otherwise fail on the android ecosystem. a small royalty fee/donation
for mozilla. and lots and lots of wasted time for the dev comunity having to
document how to work around the annoyances and binary blob crap of yet another
cheap phone.

not to mention the environmental impact of producing yet more phones that will
not be used for a few years and then be disposed.

~~~
fabrice_d
right... We are doing the Flame to address these issues: better hardware,
better update story so they are durable for developers. These are very decent
devices, fast enough, front and back camera that will let you do video calls
with webrtc, etc.

Oh, and you're flat wrong about the "no one buys them" and that could cost you
a lot ;)

~~~
gcb0
ah, you mean app devs. so it is even worse, i dont think app devs should buy
the phone just for development. that is what the emulator is for. dont be like
apple.

my complain is for gaia devs, etc. i dont think this phone will allow kernel
hacking any easier than repurposing an android phone. or the awful current
firefox phones, that still cant be easily bought...

it is 100% the same outcome as the current phones when they launched. why
insist on a mistake? either go low tier with fully open specs and drivers, or
go top tier to get US adoption, which then leads to mid tier adoption.
starting wit mid tier, failing, and insisting on it a 4th time... this is just
wrong any way you see it. that is way i assume it is a scam. someone is
profiting from that. there is no other rational explanation.

------
jareds
Any idea what the state of accessibility would be at the welcome screen if I
ordered this phone? The last update I saw is several months old.
[http://www.marcozehe.de/2014/02/23/accessibility-in-
firefox-...](http://www.marcozehe.de/2014/02/23/accessibility-in-firefox-os-
an-update/)

~~~
gcb0
when you develop for the countries those phones aim to be sold, you probably
shouldnt even care about wasting time on the welcome screen.

in all those coutries, when you buy a phone, even a no contract one, the sales
person will take the phone out of the box, fly trhu the welcome screen,
activate the phone with the SIM or a test SIM card with a sms to some random
number. go back to the home screen, and hand the client the phone.

~~~
jareds
Since I'm totally blind and will be setting up the phone on my own if I buy
one the welcome screen matters. I'm able to set up a Nexus 4 and an iPhone
with out any sited help, being able to do the same with the Firefox OS
reference device is going to make me more likely to spend $170 on a device
that I may never pick up again after a week.

------
ojii
Does anyone know why this "ships free to anywhere in the world except for
Japan"? The Japanese landing page seems to only state that it'll be available
soon, though I might've missed something on there as my Japanese isn't that
strong yet.

~~~
wodenokoto
When reading Japanese above your level, always pay attention to the words
written in roman letters. They are a dead give away. They are awaiting
certification from JATE and TELEC.

[http://www.jate.or.jp/english/](http://www.jate.or.jp/english/)
[http://www.telec.or.jp/ENG/index.html](http://www.telec.or.jp/ENG/index.html)

~~~
ojii
I didn't realize they were certification places. My bad and thanks.

~~~
wodenokoto
My comment wasn't meant as "pay more attention", but as a genuine tip.

From the text that linked to the Japanese article, there were mentions about
certificate, and then a quick googling of the roman words would actually be
enough for almost anybody to get the gist of the text.

------
rwmj
Does anyone know what ARM core is in the Snapdragon MSM8210? Is it the
Cortex-A5 or the Cortex-A7? A7 would be interesting because it supports
virtualization (although memory is a little tight for that).

~~~
asadotzler
[http://www.qualcomm.com/snapdragon/processors/200](http://www.qualcomm.com/snapdragon/processors/200)

It's a Snapdragon 200 which is built on Coretex-A7.

------
laichzeit0
Dual-sim is awesome. Is there a way to have 1 SIM be soley used for data? The
reason is that here you can buy a SIM package that's only data for a lot
cheaper than a voice/data combined SIM. It would be awesome for me to buy pre-
paid voice for when I call people (very seldom) and use the data SIM for
anything data (which I use 99% of the time). Would save me a lot of money on
cellphone fees.

~~~
fabrice_d
Yes that's supported. You can set up one sim for voice/sms and the other one
for data.

------
drewda
Looks like the frequencies correspond with AT&T 3G service but not T-Mobile.
Can anyone with experience with US-based GSM carries confirm?

~~~
hub_
If you are in a T-Mobile "refarmed area" they have 3G on 1900MHz. But
"refarmed area" are very limited.

Otherwise, Flame doesn't support the AWS band (1700MHz).

~~~
abrowne
Here's a list of "refarmed" markets:
[http://support.t-mobile.com/community/coverage/blog/2013/12/...](http://support.t-mobile.com/community/coverage/blog/2013/12/17/network-
modernization-update)

In my experience, anywhere you could get LTE on T-Mo has 3G on 1900.

------
polskibus
I cant find information on whether the price includes all taxes and customs if
ordering to Europe. I really dont want to log into everbuying.com to ask that
question though. Can one order it with a VAT-EU invoice?

A thought on the specs, it's a pity it doesn't support Bluetooth LE. Getting
Flame to work with beacons would put it on the forefront of mobile
development.

------
brianbreslin
Are any of you currently or planning on developing for Firefox OS?

------
sleepyhead
Hope the touch works better than the GeeksPhone I have.

------
jablan
Will this phone be available through other channels? I feel very reluctant to
buy it through everbuying, which looks very shady.

------
JVIDEL
Knowing the emerging marketa this OS is too little too late. 3 or 2 years ago
maybe, but now you got android phones with better specs going for that price,
and now that the big ones like motorola are jumping in its only going to get
even cheaper.

Then there's the popularity factor and the consequential app availability that
makes customers go for the market leader because all their friends use that
one and they are afraid of possible compatibility issues.

------
timmclean
As a bonus, the website accepting pre-orders (everbuying.com) emails you your
password in cleartext after registering!

------
aet
I guess we should take it for granted that all new phones have a 0.99
probability of looking exactly like the iPhone.

------
callesgg
I care more about battery time than battery size.

How often do I need to plug it in to the wall.

Btw it looks cool.

~~~
untog
Important to bear in mind that this is a developer phone. I doubt any battery
specs will be mind blowing.

~~~
hub_
We actually expect to be able to improve situation. A few tweak have been made
to the hardware/firmware to allow us to better test power consumption. This
will make software change happen to improve the overall battery life on this
and probably other phones.

------
maxk42
How can I tell if it will work with my network?

Does it support 4G / LTE?

~~~
dubfan
> Frequency: GSM 850/900/1800/1900MHz UMTS 850/900/1900/2100MHz

If your network supports one of these frequency bands, it will work. That
should cover most, if not all GSM networks.

------
ollymorgs
bluetooth 3? Is that a typo?

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
It _is_ a mid-range phone.

------
orkoden
It's a shame that Firefox OS is still pretty much unusable.

~~~
KingMob
But it's also a shame that Google's thoroughly undermined the open source
Linux underpinnings of Android, by making less and less of it available once
Android reached a decent market share. There's still a need for an open phone
platform.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
Can you substantiate this claim with numbers e.g. the number of lines of open
source code in Android gradually decreasing, the percentage of lines of open
source code in Android gradually decreasing, or similar?

~~~
e15ctr0n
This article on ArsTechnica covers in great detail the issue of "openness" in
Android:

[http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-
on-...](http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-android-
controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/)

~~~
ZeroGravitas
Yes, an article with "Controlling open source by any means necessary" in the
very title (subtitle "Android is open—except for all the good parts.") sounds
like a very detailed, factual analysis of the situation.

I asked my question because I believed that the original poster had been
misled by that very article which has had it's already overstretched claims
amplified in repitition.

~~~
e15ctr0n
You're welcome to post your own analysis of the situation, supported by
verifiable facts.

------
yarrel
With Firefox's new support for DRM this will be a killer piece of hardware!

Said no-one ever.

------
gfosco
Even though it's intended to be 'mid-tier' hardware, that screen is super
disappointing in 2014 and, because of that, I'm out.

~~~
pessimizer
It's a developer phone, and at $170, virtually free.

~~~
wnissen
The Moto E has an unlocked bootloader as well, and a 4.3-inch 960 x 540 IPS
screen, for $130. The Moto G is $179 and has 720p. It seems like the only
reason you'd buy one would be to develop.

~~~
asadotzler
The only reason you'd buy one is to have the Firefox OS reference device
precisely so you can develop for or on Firefox OS. Yes. That is right.

The Moto E makes compromises we couldn't because the Flame is a reference
device and needs more complete hardware specs. The Moto E doesn't come with a
front facing camera or auto-focus or flash on the rear camera, or NFC.

Like any reference device, this is a compromise with the primary focus on
completeness and appropriateness of the hardware platform, not top of the line
specs.

~~~
cannam
This defensive it's-just-a-developer-phone angle seems to take it for granted
that there are other FirefoxOS phones more suitable for "high-end" users who
aren't looking for a developer device. Are there?

(For my part I think this spec looks good, except that like most current
smartphones it's physically rather big. I have a Keon, and I would have loved
a device in the same enclosure but with better quality components. I found the
OS itself very comfortable to use, it's "just" the hardware I've found
problematic.)

~~~
asadotzler
It's not an angle. It's the explicit purpose of the phone. We designed it,
every component, to be our reference phone.

If you need something for some other purpose, if you've got some other angle,
you could buy a Nexus 5 and put Firefox OS on there. That's a decent high end
phone that I know several Firefox OS developers are using.

~~~
cannam
Thanks for the reply and yes, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that there was
some kind of marketing trick going on.

I just think the response here (treating this device as if it were a high-end
consumer device) is somewhat understandable as well. For instance there was a
thread here recently, "Best Firefox phone to get?" in which the top comment
suggests waiting for the Flame:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7655450](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7655450)

So there seems to be an unfulfilled want, even though I totally understand
that fulfilling it is not what this device is supposed to be for.

------
pearjuice
Firefox OS will be dead on arrival. No apps, no OEMs on board, no innovation,
HTML platform which is highly questionable and a typical developer-oriented
ecosphere instead of beung user-centric.

It's nice they are trying but it's a desperate attempt to grow Mozilla beyond
a company which is known for its browser. With Google Chrome becoming the de-
facto web browser, Firefox hastily attempting to mirror it yet loosing market
share by the day, Mozilla its future doesn't look bright. At all.

~~~
fabrice_d
So you want more than downvotes. 1) No apps: there are a few millions websites
that you can use on this OS. The truth is that we still need better discovery,
but there's a lot of content out there. 2) No OEMs. Sure... zte, tcl, LG,
geeksphone, spreadtrum odms for now. 3) No innovation. What do you call
innovation? We'll have webrtc based video calls in 2.0, and we've been pushing
a lot of new apis in the web platform. What is windows phone innovation? 4)
Developer ecosphere? Well, we have to get them onboard right? We are also
doing a lot of reach out to users through community efforts and more classic
marketing including some with partners.

Sure it's a bet, and a hard one given how the mobile ecosystem works. But we
are doing well so far (I'm waiting for your comments on ubuntu / tizen / jolla
that are competing with us).

I remember that when we started 2 years ago, people were just ignoring us ("no
way they can make it"). Then they started to laugh at us ("their stuff is not
good"). I'm happy to see some fighting us now (and not just ignoring us)
because it means that we'll reach the 4th stage, where we win. Yay!

It's always amazing how people can be critical of _anything_ Mozilla does, or
doesn't.

~~~
orkoden
> there are a few millions websites that you can use on this OS

Which will not work if your internet connection is slow or offline. I tried
Firefox OS and it is horrible. The web apps are a joke.

