
Skilled Immigrants on Why They're Leaving the U.S. - raju
http://www.businessweek.com/print/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jul2009/db20090724_178761.htm
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anon12345
I left the US because I finally got fed up of the treatment of anyone foreign
- I was working at a top US university on an international project, but every
time I returned from a conference or field work I had to convince some not
finished high school rent-a-cop at immigration that I was allowed back in. I
wasn't allowed on field work in the US because the research plane flying the
experiment and equipment I designed had the door to the cockpit open - and as
a foreigner I couldn't get airport security clearance to be on such a flight.

The bioscience people left the US long ago for countries where 4000year old
mythology didn't dictate what you could work on, the physical scientists are
going now.

Still if you get rid of all the immigrants the US will be a world leader in
beaded blankets and feather headresses.

~~~
me-too
Similar story - back in the 90s it was next to impossible to work on an
international scientific project with the USA because scientist working in US
universities had to apply for the same green card quota as MS/Intel/Google
etc.

This year apparently it's much easier to get a green card but the feeling in
academia is that it just isn't worth the hassle. In my field (nuclear
physics), except for some weapons projects, it's becoming a bit of a
scientific backwater.

~~~
frossie
_because scientist working in US universities had to apply for the same green
card quota as MS/Intel/Google_

This doesn't mesh with my experience. They had to work within the same _H1-B_
quota as the commercial sector. I agree that this is a serious problem in
research institutions that are not affiliated with a university (universities
can issue J visas for their visiting scientists and thus bypass the H1-B
quota).

Green cards are different in that there is a fast track for people with world-
class scientific expertise. It is possible to get a green card in under a year
in that category. That said, that doesn't help people in the commercial sector
who are just as equally valuable to the brain trust, which was the point of
the article.

I think the US would benefit from a points-based immigration system like
Canada and Australia have. That way you can qualify for residency
independently from your employer's whim, and the government can manipulate the
point value of different skills to fill holes in expertise.

------
flooha
It's anecdotal, but my wife moved here 1.5 years ago and before she quit her
job to move here with me, she was a Global Application Manager for DHL
International (Deutsche Post). She was responsible for a team of software
engineers and support technicians whose app was installed in 9 countries, at
20 locations all over the world. She has expertise in Oracle and is fluent in
Spanish as well as English. The software controlls automotive sequencing (just
in time part delivery) for Chrysler, Volkswagen, Seat, Ford, and GM where the
supplier can be charged > $10,000 per minute of downtime. We met through work
and she was always the person who could be counted on to troubleshoot any
issue even outside her area of expertise.

In one and a half years, she has had two interviews and no offers.

It's pretty clear that her resume is almost immediately rejected because she
isn't a U.S. citizen (she's a permanent resident) and because her experience
is with "foreign" companies.

~~~
tokenadult
_It's pretty clear that her resume is almost immediately rejected because she
isn't a U.S. citizen (she's a permanent resident) and because her experience
is with "foreign" companies._

That's not clear at all to me from the facts stated. There is a global
recession going on right now, which began a while ago.

Best wishes to your wife in finding suitable career employment.

~~~
flooha
_That's not clear at all to me from the facts stated. There is a global
recession going on right now, which began a while ago._

I don't have any hard evidence on why her job search is not yielding results,
that's true. However, I've seen people with similar skill sets (or less) with
multiple opportunities. I recently put some feelers out for contract work,
just to see what the environment was like and she was astonished when I had 3
full-time and 2 part-time offers in less than one week. I know it's cliche,
but I don't think being a woman in IT is particularly helpful either.

 _Best wishes to your wife in finding suitable career employment._

Thank you very much!

~~~
mainguy
Perhaps her resume isn't very good. Has she had it worked on by a professional
recruiter? She's using a professional recruiter right?

------
nico
I have a friend who studied Business (with a concentration on
Entrepreneurship) at Notre Dame (2nd best in Business according to
BusinessWeek). While at Notre Dame he could not get decent internships at big
companies because these companies either had a policy to not hire foreigners
(at least not for internships), or because it was such a hassle that they'd
rather not. Many of those companies were also in the process of shutting down
their "immigration departments" because it's become increasingly difficult to
get visas for their foreign workers, hence for them it's pretty much like
playing the lottery when they apply for an H1B visa for one of their workers,
and having dedicated staff for this very uncertain process is a big cost.

While finishing school, my friend was unable to secure a job with any company,
he had an offer from PWC, but it was finally withdrawn, while his friends were
hired. At the end he decided coming back to Chile, where he now has a job at
one of the top VCs in the country.

This is only one case, but I think it represents what a lot of immigrants in
the US have been experiencing.

~~~
kragen
In the US it is supposed to be illegal to discriminate in hiring on the basis
of national origin, which sometimes prohibits discrimination on the basis of
citizenship:

<http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/national-origin.html#VI>

It happens all the time, of course.

~~~
philwelch
National origin and citizenship, you're right. But when it comes to
immigration status, I've always had the "are you eligible to work in the
United States?" question asked of me for every job I've applied to.

~~~
ajju
It is not illegal to discriminate on the basis of immigration status. In fact
"Sorry, we can't hire anyone other than citizens and permanent residents" is
so common a response, it's usually part of the job ad itself.

------
geebee
Good article. The EE Phd mentioned in the beginning sounds like a _very_
skilled person, and it's hard to replace someone like that. Hard to see how
that guy is taking a job away from anyone, and he is likely creating wealth
and jobs for others. We want him here, no doubt.

One factor - I was once a PhD student in engineering at Berkeley, and in my
opinion, it's much a harder path than a JD or MBA, more uncertainty and lower
pay. While the "100K" salary the EE PhD in the article was earning isn't bad,
it's actually quite low compared to other professional degrees that can be
earned in half or even a third of the time (with less rigorous undergrad
preparation to boot). To me, there's little doubt that universities and
employers use the desire for a green card to keep these spots filled without
becoming "competitive" with other professional degree programs (the RAND
institute recently did a study that supports this view).

What to do? Well, maybe we should just set a minimum pay rate for a green
card. Perhaps a company needs to commit to a high salary to prove the worker
really is highly skilled. Given that starting salaries at top law firms exceed
$150 for a three year degree, I don't think that 100K is quite enough for the
company to claim that the worker is "critical" and "can't be found anywhere".
So I think this salary threshold needs to be very, very high.

If they were paying him 200K, I'd have no trouble granting the green card,
because then the absence of americans would be easier to attribute to a
"skills gap" rather than a desire to pay salaries that are not competitive
with other (often easier) career choices.

~~~
chime
> So I think this salary threshold needs to be very, very high.

Anytime you link a legal requirement to salary levels, you end up with
geographic cost-of-living disparities. 100K in NYC/SF is no big deal, 100K in
Clearwater, Florida is. A person who can easily get a greencard in NYC can't
do so in Florida. This makes the law unfair to states with lower cost-of-
living because employers cannot hire and keep skilled employees even when they
are willing to pay very competitive rates.

~~~
raghus
_A person who can easily get a greencard in NYC can't do so in Florida. This
makes the law unfair to states with lower cost-of-living ..._

chime - why would it be easier to get a GC in NY as opposed to FL? How then is
FL at a disadvantage because of the salary rules?

~~~
philwelch
Because a $100k salary in NY is easier for employers to meet (that's closer to
what they're already paying) than the same salary in Florida. Florida then
gets fewer immigrants this way.

------
Leon
So where are immigrants concentrating themselves if not the US? I am not
looking for the response, 'They are going home,' but surely the intelligentsia
is concentrating in some area so where is it? Is it just that the distribution
is more even with respect to country (in which case the US would still be the
lead) or is there a new, hot area (maybe parts of europe)?

~~~
potatolicious
I think that immigration to Canada is still on the rise. I can't source it,
but I think I heard that immigration to Canada from American citizens has
tripled in the last few years... As an educated professional with a college
degree and whatnot, and one who speaks fluent English (or French), entry into
Canada is almost a no-brainer under the skilled workforce immigration policy.

This is really an attitude thing. In the beginning the US was _the_ place to
be, so as non-Americans we all put up with the rampant bullshit you had to go
through to get in the door. Now, there are choices, and the xenophobic
attitude and the circus-like hoops you have to jump through to get in are no
longer as attractive.

Not to mention that the US is now dealing with some major social changes
(read: problems) that other countries have managed to avoid... health care for
one...

~~~
ajju
Actually Canada actively recruits US immigrants. Send an email about H-1B
visas using Gmail and soon you'll see an ad on the top saying something like
"Stuck in an H1B visa? Canada will give you an expedited residency if you are
a qualified immigrant". And it's goes to a Canadian govt. website with a form
asking for your phone number. THEY contact YOU!

If I could bear the cold I'd skoot over to Toronto in the blink of an eye.

~~~
potatolicious
To be fair, get ready for a rude income shock. I am one of the (few?)
Canadians who recently came to the US to work. Why? Honestly, because I got an
offer that was double what _any_ Canadian company was willing to offer me.

Software in Canada is second class - salaries are nowhere near the US levels,
and much of the work is "scrap" from Americans.

Everywhere I look in Canada I see satellite offices to large American software
companies. Invariably these offices do the boring, mundane code that nobody
wants to pay $150K to a Californian to do. That's what I mean when I say
"scrap" - monkey work, not real dev. It's hard to find a Canadian shop that
writes real, meaningful code.

~~~
ajju
Good point. I want to work for my own startup though so access to a large
number of customers is more important to me. I don't yet know how this
compares (the ease of finding new customers in Canada as well as traveling to
the US as a Canadian resident to meet customers) but I am looking into it.

~~~
potatolicious
Customer-wise stay in the US I say :) Canada doesn't really have a consumer
culture to the tune of the USA, and because of lower income and higher taxes,
you need to sell harder to get our money.

For tech companies focusing on mobile apps this is especially troublesome.
Telecommunications in Canada is _expensive_ as hell, and come with a ludicrous
number of strings attached. Want to do a high-bandwidth site like Hulu? Forget
it, your customers get hit with overage fees from their ISP like the plague.
Want to do a mobile app? Sky high costs for data plans means your customer
base is severely limited, and even the ones that do have it are apprehensive
about going over their paltry (500MB to 2GB!) monthly limits.

I wouldn't consider doing a Canadian startup that sells to Canadians. I would,
however, consider a Canadian startup that sells to Americans :)

~~~
ajju
Thanks. That's useful input! :)

------
Mintz
This really bothers me. It's like the U.S. is a football team, and we train
one of these immigrants; we make them hit the gym, show them the ropes, teach
them the intracacies of the game, let them know some good techniques, then
say, "Now get out of here, we don't want you to play for our team."

~~~
eugenejen
At the other hand, the law makers can say that this is how we intend to make
all countries around the world to be as good as United States by giving their
brains back. We are spreading Lord's wisdom and grace to everyone on earth by
being altruistic.

~~~
Mintz
Yeah, I can see how you're spinning it to be a positive thing, but when you
hear how these guys are getting frustrated, I don't think this is quite what
they want to hear.

~~~
eugenejen
Now you get my joke. You see how ridiculous the feeling is!

Unfortunately immigration is the thing that politicians either don't know
anything about it or don't care about anything about it.

Because until immigrants naturalize themselves as citizens, immigrants have no
voting right and politicians have no use of immigrants (Of course politicians
may still want immigrants to donate hard earned money to their campaign fund
under corporate names)

------
bwd
Maybe Obama will be smart enough to start handing out green cards to anybody
with an H1B who can hold a permanent position for two years. I'd much rather
employ somebody who's motivated enough to leave their home country in search
of opportunity.

~~~
jimbokun
That helps you, but does it help Obama (assuming Obama's goal is to get re-
elected) or the median U.S. voter?

~~~
roc
Obama will be painted as weak-on-immigration by the right regardless. So
there's no up-side to him ignoring the larger immigration problem or H1B in
particular.

(H1B should be a short path to a green card. Letting them be taken advantage
of and then sending them home is a _bad_ policy.)

------
ajju
I am jumping through hoops right now so that I can work for a startup based on
technology I developed (that has already created 3 jobs).

It's pretty frustrating.

------
jimbokun
'Senator Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), chairman of the Senate immigration
subcommittee, said in June that U.S. policy will aim to "encourage the world's
best and brightest individuals to come to the U.S. and create the new
technologies and businesses…but must discourage businesses from using our
immigration laws as a means to obtain temporary and less expensive foreign
labor."'

I'm curious for the opinion of Hacker News readers on Schumer's statement. Do
you agree or disagree that this should be the goal for U.S. immigration
policy? (and why)

~~~
patio11
I'd sell Green Cards, with a portion of the fee going into a background check
(more to buy off the Republican Party than anything else). I think about $50k
is fair, but you could calibrate the number as desired. Heck, if you want,
impose a quota, issue securities entitling the bearer to one green card, and
then auction them like T-bills. Transferable or non-transferable, your call.

This system is easy to understand, transparent, and offers certainty that the
patchwork quilt of immigration statuses does not. You'd hear a lot less
whinging from the nativist set if they were automatically $50k less expensive
than the next guy. This would essentially eliminate any abuse of (legal)
foreign labor, as employers would no longer hold any particular power over the
fates of their employees, other than the usual ones accorded by contract law.
(I can see Microsoft or whomever offering to foot the bill if they were
guaranteed 3 years of service, and have absolutely no problem with that
arrangement.)

It would also be easier for desirable foreign laborers to interface with.
Believe me, I can tell you from personal experience, NOTHING scares me like a
routine visit to get my visa renewed. It is the only time when I am ever
totally at the mercy of a clerk who has a Destroy My Life button on his
computer. Folks trying to fit an extended stay in the US into their near-term
life plans must have similar emotions. This would quiet them. Pay the license
fee. Get the green card. Simple, easy, fullproof.

Besides, you can essentially buy your way around immigration laws anyhow, so
we might as well be honest about it.

~~~
kragen
_Besides, you can essentially buy your way around immigration laws anyhow, so
we might as well be honest about it._

Can you really? How does that work?

~~~
gaius
Pay someone to marry you. A friend of mine did this. Tho' there's nothing
sleazy about it, he's gay and married a lesbian. He, his boyfried, her and her
girlfriend share a house in SF.

~~~
btdxtrt
The american dream?

------
pjvandehaar
I think a way to improve the situation would be to change the way income-tax
scales. To citizens, it increases percentage as wage increases, scaling
exponentially. To foreigners, it could scale sub-linear-ly, by lowering
percentage as wage increases. This would encourage foreigners to take high-
paying jobs in the US, but not low-paying ones.

Also: <http://paulgraham.com/foundervisa.html>

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tokenadult
Is this situation better in other countries?

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=726097>

------
onreact-com
The brain drain from developing countries was aggravating their problems. Now
as the the US struggles itself those nations that need experts the most can
keep them.

