
Dropbox rival Space Monkey puts 'cloud' in your house - ivoflipse
http://news.cnet.com/8301-19882_3-57391989-250/dropbox-rival-space-monkey-puts-cloud-in-your-house/#ixzz1oX8i677s
======
dpark
They give me half of a 2TB drive? Doesn't that mean that I'm getting only one
copy of my data stored outside my house? So if a power surge fries my
equipment, there's one copy of my data spread across a couple dozen other
machines. I guess that's fine as long as no one but me experiences any
failures...

It's possible that they're just overselling, and they expect most people to
use only a couple hundred megs, which would allow lots of redundancy. If so,
that seems like a really bad idea, since heavy usage of an on-site disk is
likely (let's back up all these pirated movies!), and their buildout requires
either signing up new customers or swapping devices, neither of which is quick
or cheap.

~~~
samstave
In my 25 years using computers, I have never once had any piece of equipment
fried by a power surge. I have had things fail, sure - but never by a power
surge.

~~~
mistercow
You've never had lightning take out equipment? I envy you. Few things are
worse than hearing a crack, having the lights go out, and then smelling
burning circuit boards.

~~~
samstave
I am sure it's due to geography. Looks like ill be in Dallas for the next 2
years on a project - so my experience may change :)

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kijin
So, the company gives you a 2TB external hard drive for free, on the condition
that you use 1TB to store your own data and 1TB to store copies of other
people's encrypted data? Sounds interesting, until you get a huge bill for
bandwidth overage. I have barely 100GB of bandwidth to spare every month (out
of a total of 300GB/mo), so if that hard drive gets filled in less than 10
months, we've got a problem. They're effectively pushing their costs onto
ISPs, who in turn will push their costs onto customers. Restoring backups is
also going to be pretty slow if your data is stored on somebody's 10M/1M DSL
line. They'd better market it in countries where everyone has 100M and no
bandwidth caps.

~~~
jtolds
ISPs pay for bandwidth leaving and entering their network. inter-network
bandwidth is actually free for them, so it's very likely spacemonkey could
prefer peering with other users on the same ISP.

~~~
wmf
Upstream bandwidth on DOCSIS causes congestion that requires capex (node
splits) to fix, so it's definitely not free. See
<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/74/slides/alto-1.pdf>

------
wmf
This has been shown not to work:
<http://people.cs.umass.edu/~emery/pubs/TFS.pdf> (section 5.1) I wonder how
they think they're getting around the upstream replication bottleneck.

~~~
jbellis
Upvoted, but I skimmed 5.1 and missed the "shown not to work" part. Can you be
more specific?

~~~
wmf
Whenever a device fails or goes offline, the data that was stored there needs
to be re-replicated from the source. But figure 6 shows that even with a 2
Mbps "turbo" uplink you can only replicate ~25 GB; if you have more data than
that, replicas will fail faster than you can recreate them.

~~~
jbellis
Sounds like that's addressed by storing pieces of data from many sources in
the non-local part of space monkey storage: even if each source only has a
256K uplink, multiply that by 100 or 1000 and you're in pretty good shape.

------
typicalrunt
Interesting idea, but this worries me:

 _When you sign up for Space Monkey, you get a physical networked hard disk
with 1TB of storage free for you to use. It's actually a 2TB drive; the rest
gets used by other people on the system._

So 1TB is filled with other people's data? What about security? Dropbox had a
simple security issue that potentially leaked all users' data. But now, the
data is on your drive. You could mirror the drive ('dd') and try to break into
other user's information without anyone suspecting anything.

Or what happens if someone stores child pr0n on SpaceMonkey, and it gets
mirrored to your drive? Legally, are you now on the hook for possessing the
information since it's on your device?

~~~
the_paul
This is one of the most straightforward possible applications for cryptography
in data storage- no worries about key negotiation or cipher negotiation or PKI
infrastructures. And yes, they're encrypting your data before sending it
anywhere- that's pretty explicitly mentioned everywhere the service is
explained.

So, if you're asking whether you're legally liable for the content of data on
your hard drive which you have no possibility of decrypting, um, the answer is
"no".

~~~
kijin
Depending on the jurisdiction, you might still be liable for other people's
encrypted data stored in your property. Whether anyone can prove that you have
any particular piece of incriminating data is a different story of course, but
law enforcement agencies in certain countries have a nasty tendency to skip
proofs.

~~~
the_paul
I submit that you're probably screwed anyway in those countries and/or
jurisdictions, whether or not you have someone else's unreadable contraband.
:)

In fact, here's an exercise. The following data represents a base64-encoded
encrypted image:

qipN5pKHq+CCBm+yfHz0Y/NmkLd+1GjuowopHYWs3qjo6wuPsrulOBZJUXGt
tsc465cM9p2qUZvKYxt/5M+2+zkjdbNMi447cLY4KUw3Xb934KDkyrviZYkh
gryO3C5cPw0ZVitr/6e3pyQiEGga4SwbskCQhMw7XlqDYJowpCs/Qsh8ZQiR
2/+zQ/CGhYfU37dIQYVzqPCM7y5DHcDePGvzx2BCzu8OQThLnMWGiz5kODzY
49zrfoTQg8W0NKIC7rD529CnPVyfQok+u8L8LGqZSbOh2CUygWIF3mjmTGtd
EnUBrkI49aVjeEa9/anCUw2nBRbmWWZZ5p1bvDYHGkEtlaFTJrSfVnuejBa1
NqNdMFIU6qAlpJ75Js8O2+jNi+qbVE/JUjYFtB45mf0B/E4GXbBcjg/gWhSi
LvTOX7P8+HDMhg8jB2nnJ2Yf3l2CPopjKczWGZMUu3P8jamdp2kv67q0kIrE
xGc3sr8r8R78StuQUVpp+5SexykhDOMQGowdBQ2yLYtRtoNDlWm47x7agM8i
YP70n4wLhwZ03JH+2WmmVLVx2Yk4AZIU4t7XfdaoYaC33U58QeSaBJ4fdsJO
PBp1L559jJTRrBk996gLN7V0oQSRMCWF67KezK3Bk2a07vzxjiXfwJOB5BDl
ooSvoTdu5Slv9C+aIoa4ade7r7umC8Ac84XCfBY/UlmWIq0VogXuzOzZ2WkX
0uUpCnz2WX3rShKFFd8w9HhoxsOaR2S3sFbL7foqpx9SXYYjpM2vJHpEjMFQ
W7Xmqlvb/2m1aUB2f6qFmqKPjo5/zIAOl90YDoDaQSin9C9/X6WRydHHcu1/
mrjo5LSdfouqOwVXMDnh95/YPvSGdO8GP35pRKUceidM4oYyQCRYGb3xKn0O
TP/jKy3MXz/CeZsbxQtobq1DlC6NVVp5UifQM72ufdI5xcqObQSECFXKTTtt
FuGdg+ZQ/0yLQ6WQde1B44LJML0MWIYPjrO74tOiCn4VZEsC9lakMMJZ2Qyp
M1BRsh7xeQ0eVMOCEe5+yDV45uvchoGyAZsr2qTcgqTCKm4U9r1PUqBjWUjS
AkVE3uIHjwL7D+gDvRuvNk4PdHpUX0p+oLp2ATmcR+TmhSNL8UEuAAw1ajgH
SlhtS/BdXWkC5SFbfp6Dvt+WD+/2CwAZGgImAWXPv0YM+za80Q99au4NPR+L
+KQW2wjChNkEKau9Jq5uGf36Vnt08dxVRoWzsWcPHmlFquXQrsBVsbe2Yu6v
EfTAwaxFUB1kgLdTWJlxObfiBtzwf855yIggNcJZ9b/e9k6NpdJbCBYQJElf
RN5qYGh4A6ASpZgZa86e2nPHvIJprm7IN9uqiI2EP9fPQp+zLorNKwxnZkv7
W//D28p0Wy5tS5F5p2ee7QI=

Is it pr0n? Is it an image of US gov't classified data? Is it hate speech? Who
knows, but now it's on your computer. There are a lot of other ways someone
could get data onto your computer without you knowing if it has a particular
meaning.

------
sek
This is a great idea for the long term. There will always be a need for
something like this, as an alternative to the cloud. Dropbox should have come
up with this, to differentiate themselves from their competitors.

Sounds like a good acquisition candidate.

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dpark
Actually, you know who could probably sell this? Comcast. Make a single device
that serves as a cable modem and also has this storage angle built in as
either a "free" service with the bundle or as a small upsell.

~~~
wmf
I think Comcast wants to reduce upstream congestion, not increase it.

Edit: I'm talking about upstream on the last mile.

~~~
dpark
Why? If anything, I'd expect them to have plenty of upstream bandwidth, given
that typical traffic patterns are primarily downstream.

~~~
sek
They sell the upstream to hosting providers.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peering>

~~~
dpark
I don't see how this is relevant. If Comcast were to sell this (or an
equivalent device), they'd keep all the traffic within their own network.

~~~
sek
When you have a peering contract, you offer your own network. Every bit not
used is so valuable for cable providers, we consumers forget that because we
all have flatrates.

~~~
dpark
I don't see how this is valuable. By definition a peering contract is not
staying inside Comcast's network. The bandwidth for this (if Comcast were
selling it) would stay entirely within the network, where it's not
significantly competing with peered traffic.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're suggesting.

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takinola
I would love to see a Time machine equivalent for Windows. I already have a
2TB storage device at home but pretty much every local backup/sync service
sucks cojones. I'd gladly pay a flat fee for a product that does this

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hndl
I think this is a great idea but I think Dropbox has a pretty well established
brand name. My guess is that most people aren't going to find the need to
switch. The ones who might make the switch are the paranoid folks who would
think this is some sort of more secure way to sync.

The idea is nice but the challenge, IMO, will be in marketing this.

~~~
eli
Dropbox is also kinda expensive. $125/year per user starts to add up if you've
got a lot of users.

~~~
typicalrunt
It depends on your financial situation in life. Instead of thinking
"expensive" versus "cheap" -- because they're just words with no clear
definition -- you need to think about the cost for what you are getting.

$125/year is just over $10/month. Nowadays in the US/UK/Canada, that's about 2
cups of coffee at Starbucks.

For that price, you are receiving 1TB of backup space for yourself.

Each person is $10/month, which is useful if you need to collaborate and not
worry about setup.

Insurance on your home always varies, but usually runs about $50-100 per
month. And that's just the price you pay for when things are going well.

For me, there's a cost to peace of mind and the ability for me to save time in
my life to do things other than maintenance.

FWIW, I look at Dropbox as a monthly insurance premium to ensure that my files
will always be around and I don't need to worry that my in-home RAID server
must blow up at any time.

~~~
eli
I was actually thinking of B2B. $125/user isn't a lot for one person, but it
is for 50. And I would imagine most businesses have some (worse) system for
sharing files already...

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alenahemkova
Didn't Wuala use to do something like this? Except more for P2P file backup
rather than sync?

~~~
jbellis
P2P backup / sync has been done before (allmydata is another example from
longer ago). It's that plus the appliance that makes Space Monkey unique, IMO.

~~~
alenahemkova
IIRC what wuala did was give people more storage if they give up a part of
their hard drive for other to sync with, so it's exactly the same model except
without external hardware and more flexibility in choosing how much storage
you want to trade off. Wuala also keep a centralize server in addition to this
P2P cloud so I think the purpose of the cloud was more for bandwidth.

~~~
jtolds
it's one thing to pay money and gain space, but it's another thing to pay
money and lose disk space you have. i feel like people are more likely to pick
the former.

------
cbs
This sounds awesome! I've been waiting to see a step this direction for a long
time. For a lot of people dropbox is the best tool for files, but its
ridiculous for the trip between two computers in the same room to have a
layover in A3.

~~~
jpschorr
That's why dropbox has lan sync: <https://www.dropbox.com/help/137>

~~~
cbs
That has a few big catches, including maintaining an internet connection and
being in the same broadcast domain. And looks like it doesn't have lan-only
drives, I maintain a box serving up samba shares specifically because the work
files in a specific project work files would blow my bandwidth cap for the
month in 2 round trips.

~~~
dpark
> _That has a few big catches, including maintaining an internet connection
> and being in the same broadcast domain._

Are those actual big catches? Those seem like pretty reasonable constraints.
What machine do you have attached to your LAN that can't access the internet?
And the network restriction is probably just fine for >99% of their customers.

~~~
cbs
I know its not going to impact the vast majority of their users, so they don't
have to care. For my uses, they're all pretty big. That's why I'm so happy to
see a new product that may fit into those situations better. Not every
computer is on a SOHO network, or a network with many properties of the same.

The network I'm on most of the time is huge which means its heavily subnetted
and no one user gets great throughput. My apartment has the aforementioned
cap. My old man's place has no internet connection at all, just wifi for
getting files to the media computer connected to the TV. By building a product
that can serve these users, they'll have a product that can better serve users
on ideal connections too!

~~~
dpark
I don't really see how this product makes any sense for the scenarios you're
describing. This system still needs to be able to hit the Internet at
reasonable speed, or else you get no offsite backup. It just becomes a
network-attached hard drive, and if that's what you want, you can buy one at a
better price with more storage (and it won't waste your bandwidth _trying_ to
be a "cloud" for your data or anyone else's data).

~~~
cbs
My original post was that this is a _step_ in the right direction. From one
thing I happened to mention, this thread took a tangent about dropbox's lan
sync, but thats not specifically or only the area I care about. There is a
place I'd like to see file storage tech to go, and we are inching towards it,
but its not delivered with an off the shelf NAS box, dropbox or simple
combination of the two.

~~~
dpark
I guess I'm not clear what your ideal product would be. All of the scenarios
you describe have very constrained bandwidth, which means that sync outside
the LAN will always be crappy. It sounds like you either need NAS or peer-to-
peer sync (something like Mesh or AeroFS).

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calanya
I'm glad to see Dropbox as defining this space.

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JVIDEL
And here I thought it was an actually solid rival to dropbox you could install
in your own servers and enjoy the same level of functionaly.

Yes I know there are some hacks around using FTP apps to get a similar
experience, but is not the same, is still clunky, sometimes too buggy, and let
alone the average dropbox user wouldn't be able to even read the instructions,
let alone put it together.

