
How to Talk to Human Beings - stalled
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/06/how-to-talk-to-human-beings.html
======
biot
Read the comic of the kid in the high chair as the panels being oriented like:

    
    
      1 2 3 4
      5 6 7 8
    

rather than:

    
    
      1 2  1 2
      3 4  3 4
    

It's much more surreal that way.

~~~
timc3
Ah thanks. No wonder it didn't make sense to me when I read it

~~~
toast76
As a parent of a 3 year old boy, I can tell you you may as well read it 8, 5,
6, 3, 1, 2, 4 for all the difference it makes. When his sister destroys his
latest Lego construction, no amount of mirroring will stop him from having the
mother of all tantrums.

~~~
pvidler
Agreed. One of the first things you learn as a parent is that all children are
different and not all the advice that gets heaped on you will work. (Though
the advice givers are usually certain that it will).

In fact, the constant advice and even "you're doing it wrong" comments are one
of the more frustrating parts of being a parent. I was quite disturbed when my
friends started having children and I found myself trying to give them advice
-- I now force myself to just keep quiet most of the time.

------
shashashasha
I get hit by this all the time. Many times when I'm talking with my girlfriend
I realize that what she wants is not for me to leap into "problem-solving"
mode which I naturally tend towards, but understanding/empathy mode (similar
to the "That's frustrating" example in the post). Realizing that during a
conversation dramatically changes the flow for the better :)

~~~
craigvn
The long held philosophy is that men are problem solvers, and when someone
comes to them with an issue they want to solve it. Often what people really
want is just for you to listen. So when your wife says "I hate this tap", she
doesn't actually want you to fix the tap, she just wants you to nod in
agreement.

So the secret to a happy marriage, just always nod in agreement, and try and
pay enough attention in case she asks what she was just talking about.

~~~
personlurking
I guess I shouldn't mention the ex-gf of mine that with one simple mention of
anything that wasn't right, I was supposed to immediately be on it, plan in
hand and know how to go about fixing it. Zero excuses. Period.

Yeah, she was fun.

~~~
mdemare
Is this venting, or a bug report?

~~~
personlurking
Not quite sure what you're asking, sorry. If you want to know if it was an
actual problem specific to the situation or if it was transference (ie, you
have a bad day at work so you go home and kick the dog), then I'd say both.

~~~
tomjen3
He is basically asking if you wanted to vent, or get help fixing the problem.

Since you said she was an ex, I guess you just wanted to vent.

------
Jach
Like much general-purpose advice, it's only good on average, but damaging for
those more than a standard deviation away from the average in either
direction. Parroting doesn't work on me, and it doesn't work on several people
I've tried it on. (Other times for other people it does work, though. If
you've tried it and it does, I guess keep doing it, if you've tried it and it
doesn't, stop.) For kids, I observe kids from the same parents in the same
household and city grow up to be completely different, and so what techniques
might have worked on one child to accomplish a goal would fail for another
child. I was pleased when I listened to Feynman describe this experience with
his own children in one of his videos. Anyway, if I had a child I'd try this
technique and see if it works or not and decide from that whether to keep
using it.

The technique has been known about for a long time
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_listening> regrettably doesn't include a
history section), and I see the old related gender joke of "women just want to
hear their own opinion in a deeper voice" reoccurring in the comments here. My
favorite relatively recent comedic take on the technique is from an episode of
Malcolm in the Middle, S02E15:

    
    
        Malcolm: Mum, I have a problem, I need to talk.
        Lois: Good, you can talk, and I will listen.
        Malcolm: This football player wants to use an essay I wrote for his college
                 application and pretend it's his own. I know it's dishonest, but I
                 might be making too much of it. I wanted to get your advice.
        Lois: You're hoping I can help you.
        Malcolm: Yeah, I just said that. So, I don't think he should get into college
                 under false pretenses. But are they really false pretenses if nobody
                 thinks he's smart anyway? I don't want to be a part of his cheating,
                 but also don't want to take away his shot at going to college.
                 I just don't know what to do.
        Lois: You're uncertain what action to take.
        Malcolm: Yes. Why are you talking like a robot?
        Lois: You want to know why I'm talking like a robot.
        Malcolm: I have a problem and I need your help! All you're doing
                 is mindlessly parroting back what I say.
        Lois: You say one thing, and I restate it.
        Malcolm: Forget it, if you're not going to help me, you don't have to mock me!
                (gets up and leaves the room)
        Lois: (calling too late) We did not come from a family of criminals, you
              do not let him turn in that essay! Oh god, I knew listening to our
              kids would be a mistake.

~~~
6ren
I think it's for dealing with emotions. Malcolm doesn't seem upset at the
start of this exchange.

~~~
meesterdude
It's helpful when dealing with emotional people, but is not strictly for
dealing with emotions. The whole point of parroting is to repeat back to the
person, in your own words, what they are saying in order to ensure both
parties are on the same page. When frustrated, people want to be understood.
Yes, if you merely repeat back to them what they said you're doing it wrong.
It needs to be in your own words and you need to reflect bullet points, not
everything they say.

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essayist
That book, _How to talk so kids will listen, and listen so kids will talk_ has
been a staple in our (childless) household since we discovered it decades ago.
The extent to which we recommend it to new couples and new parents is
embarrassing.

It's partially about empathy, but it's also about taking smaller steps to
communication. E.g. _I see Legos all over the floor_ rather than _look what a
mess you made!_.

~~~
meesterdude
You may also find "taming your outer child" to be beneficial. I came from a
rather disruptive household, and this book is how I know now how to be a good
parent and not pass that stuff on, and also to be a "fully functional" human
being.

~~~
technology
I've this book, and I'm in same situation as yours. Do u want to discuss more
books on this context ? gtalk ?

------
wccrawford
I'm not sure the correct lesson is being learned here. He gives a set of
things you can do to calm the situation down, but I don't get the feeling that
he knows why.

First, people want to know that you understand them. Repeating back what they
said helps. But even better is to rephrase what they said, so that they know
you understand. And if you don't understand, that can be corrected before you
go any further.

Second, people want you to listen. Once you've established that you
understand, repeating everything back is really, really annoying to both
sides. Gentle noises show you're still listening, if you use them at the right
time. You may have to return to repeating if things get complicated.

Third, you identify their problem so that they can see it clearly. In this
case, he's labeling their emotions, which is just part of the problem. But it
could lead to them realizing that they need to fix it in a way that relieves
that emotion. "It would be nice if there was another way to do that" is
another way, but the other option can't be too obvious or it comes out as
sarcasm.

And last, you either solve their problem, of let them solve it on their own,
inception-style. You've led them by the nose to the problem in part 3, and now
it's time to let them solve it. If they just can't, you'll have to help them
with the solution a bit.

Until this point, I guess I didn't understand just how little of this other
people understood. I've been empathizing with people for years and helping
them solve their problems. It was especially helpful when I was doing phone
tech support, but continues to be helpful in software development and personal
relationships.

When you get good at this, you don't even think about what you're doing. You
just do it because it's fairly obvious what the right response is at every
moment.

~~~
mortenjorck
_Gentle noises show you're still listening, if you use them at the right
time._

The key being "at the right time." I used to know a guy who had the strangely
off-putting habit of doing this with _the completely wrong rhythm,_ giving the
impression that he wasn't actually listening – and I don't know, maybe he
never really was. It was as if he was counting down a random number of seconds
to mutter "mm-hm" in a vacuum.

------
afhof
Without having read the book in question, I feel this advice is good but
partial. A lot of what he mentions in this post is mirrored in Dale Carnegie's
"How to Win Friends and Influence People". I feel that Carnegie goes much more
in depth than this blog summary.

One thing: the deli example he gives makes it seem (whether on purpose or not)
that you should just say the words to get what you want rather than to
actually care about what the other person is saying. You aren't trying to
manipulate the other person; instead you should sympathize with them. I
personally prefer this attitude change rather than a strictly behavioral
change.

~~~
simondlr
Agreed. I think "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a must read for
everyone. And yes, its not about using it to get what you want, it is more
about making engagements with other people more pleasant. If you instinctively
sympathise with other people, even if they in the end don't "sway" to what you
want, you had a great experience with another person.

~~~
gwillen
I find "How to Win Friends" a bit dangerous. It's great if you use it in
moderation, but the people who are most likely to need it will not understand
that.

After reading it, it suddenly became very clear to me why certain people,
particularly aggressive salespeople, are so annoying: they take the stuff in
that book (e.g. "use people's names when you talk to them") and turn it up to
11, where it's very obvious how they're trying to manipulate you with it.

------
InclinedPlane
I'd also highly recommend the book Crucial Conversations:
[http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-
Stakes-S...](http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-
Second/dp/0071771328/)

It's a little on the dry side but it provides guidance on some very
straightforward to pick up skills which are unimaginably important in business
and personal relationships.

------
dwc
" _because I want to freakin' kill this kid at least three times a day_ "

Nice. I just don't relate to this.

~~~
biot

      > Nice. I just don't relate to this.
    

You don't relate to this? Mmmm. That's frustrating.

~~~
kanamekun
I see what you did there.

------
metaphorical
In a sense this is what good designs do. It's a bit about problem solving, and
a lot about emotional understanding.

------
nosse
This one time I saw a mother and a child maybe three years old entering a bus
I was riding. The child behaved nicely until the bus took of, and then he
begun crying and fooling around. The mother tried to invent every kind of
amusement for the boy, so that he would not bother other passengers.

I so don't want this when I have kids. The boy was so obviously using the
situation to get attention. I thought that the best way is to ignore him. But
maybe the best way would have been to tell him why it's so annoying that he
cries in a bus. So this text definitely had something to consider.

------
meesterdude
There is also "People Skills: How to Assert Yourself, Listen to Others, and
Resolve Conflicts" and several other books that cover this topic. And no, the
title does not fail to deliver.

------
benwerd
This should be communication 101. For kids, it's crucial - don't speak to them
like idiots, they're actually constantly figuring things out and are probably
more observant than we are. But for everyone, it's a great approach that
really works, and will widen your understanding of any particular situation as
well as theirs.

------
nsxwolf
I know if someone had pulled that cell phone signal conversation parroting
trick on me, I'd have gone into a murderous rage. Everybody's different.

The "we're out of cereal" trick seems interesting though. But at what point
are you not letting kids learn how to be confrontational? It's annoying, but
it's an important life skill.

~~~
danparsonson
Really? I'd say it's the opposite. Being confrontational is easy and the
important skill is training yourself not to interact aggressively with other
people - in my experience at least, the success rate for getting what you want
is much higher if you don't turn an encounter into a fight.

------
jhrobert
Sure, the virtue of Empathizing come as a surprise to those who are strong at
Systemizing.

Active Listening is somehow ok with kids, with adults it smells manipulative
to me. For women, as always, it's a different story (kidding).

~~~
meesterdude
active listening works with everyone when done correctly. If done incorrectly,
it's horrible and blatantly manipulative. You reflect, not repeat. it's to
indicate you're listening and done right is very natural and what gets people
to talk their heads off for hours on end.

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autotravis
should have been titled "How to Talk to Kids". I was sorely disappointed.

~~~
AsylumWarden
I felt the same way. It is worse still in that I have never considered
children as human beings -- I've always seen them as monster like. I then came
back and re-read the post and had a realization. This is how I have learned to
talk to my supervisor! I think I will now have to read this book in case it
helps with other human beings.

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kahawe
> _He calmed down._

Is it just me or does this example conversation feel really horrible, not-
involved and distant? I can see how this technique of mirroring and showing
empathy can work well in certain situations but it is less "communication" as
it is basically getting someone to shut up and take care of themselves, like
in the example. No further conversation after that. Sure this would be great
to empower your children but let's see you try that in a heated project
discussion with "requested feature A is missing" instead of "cereal" or
anywhere else outside of a parental context...

~~~
meesterdude
Good communication is universal. Weather you are dealing with kids or
coworkers the formula is often the same. Things like justify the emotion but
not the behavior. "I understand you're upset that feature A is missing, but
you do not need to raise your voice in order for us to listen to you."

When people get frustrated they get an emotional build up of energy that must
be discharged, typically behaviorally. Similar to flight-or-fight, acting
before thinking. The connections between emotional and behavioral is very
strong while the connection between cognitive and behavioral is weak. The
ability of their "adult-self" to step in and take control is hindered.

So you'll find more often than not that a heated discussion is sometimes two
different discussions entirely, each side trying to assert their point to the
other that is trying to assert a different point on them. But yes, even in
these situations, reflective listening is the key to changing it from a battle
into a healthy exchange.

~~~
kahawe
> _Good communication is universal._

That's the point - IMHO this was NOT "good communication". There were some
techniques in there that could be helpful in general but this was by no means
a good conversation or a good example of communication. This was an example of
how to not get involved and get people off your back - if you do this with
your angry customer, trying to make THEM come up with their own answer, well
good luck with that.

