
Ask HN: Do you care about the product you are building? - pyzhianov
It seems to me that many developers care more about tools. They are happy to join any team that uses cool new technologies even if they don&#x27;t care about the product they are building at all.<p>Am I wrong? Am I just a nagging idealist?
======
whorleater
The product I'm building is a solid product and has a good market fit, but I'd
be lying if I said I cared about it. We use pretty modern tools
(Kube/spinnaker/opencensus, GCP/AWS/Azure/Alibaba, GRPC, redis, etc) which are
interesting at first, but they all really cease to matter a few months in.

At least switching from one tool to another is a cool technical challenge and
a good chance to rewrite some bad code, but the rest of the time is spent
writing yet another RPC service.

Honestly I'm just here for the paycheck and location. Any company that offers
me better compensation with the same work-life balance is one I'd jump ship
for immediately.

------
mikestew
I don't care so much about tools, and I don't really care about the product. I
_do_ care about solving problems. Does the company have problems that I'm good
at solving? Are they interesting problems? (Admittedly, somewhat tied to the
product.) Do they have enough of them to keep me busy for a while? They don't
make missile guidance systems or ad tech? Then I don't think I care what kind
of software widget we're making, when would like my first day to be?

Oh, I don't have "passion" for the product? Who gives a shit? I have passion
for doing the best work I possibly can if I hire on to your company. Whether
you're making Exciting New Whatever Tech or a boring ass old CRUD app, I will
you give you my best, guaranteed. Never will you hear an excuse out of me
about how the product doesn't "excite" me. _That 's_ what I care about, and
it's what companies ought to care about when they're hiring people.

------
mholt
Yes, I do!

When I built Caddy, I actually needed a web server that met my specific needs.
It HAD to work well, and when the community jumped on board to contribute, I
found out I wasn't the only one with those needs.

Now I'm writing a file backup service for consumers like my sister and brother
but also developers like myself, because I want my family to be able to
preserve our memories. Existing solutions just aren't satisfying for our
needs. With generations of family history and photos and lifestyle potentially
on the line, you bet I care that we get it right!

We're not using any flashy technologies to make them. Most of it's pretty
boring. But it's SO satisfying to see it working.

------
bsvalley
Let me ask you one question though - Can you think of any steps during the
hiring process where the interest in a product from a candidate is
highlighted?

Besides the usual 15 minute monologue from recruiters trying to do keywords
matching, briefly talking about the company (you can google most of it). I
can't remember anyone asking me about my vision regarding any products I
worked on during the interview process. After that 1st phone call it's not
about the product or the company anymore, it's all about testing you like a
college kid getting ready for an exam. Now it's about you wanting to join
their team. Not them trying to convince you to join.

What would be a solution? Hire people who care about the product, not only the
company logo. It's cool if you know how to write a function in order to find
the shortest path in a graph. It's awesome if you love using a pen on a
whiteboard. How about asking you how you could improve our product? What
problems do you think could be solved within a specific industry? So, looks
like the hiring process has to be completely re-written.

~~~
pyzhianov
Startups actually care. You often see interest in their product/industry as
one of requirements.

But large companies care much less. It's much more important for them to find
a person who will be effective with their well defined processes.

~~~
bsvalley
Not all startups care unfortunately, it is not specific to large companies :)
How many times I hear things like "come join us, we're backed by XYZ", "We
have raised $ABC", "our founders are ex people from 123 Inc.". Since there's
no brand or value built over time yet, they have to find ways to attract
developers. At the end of the day, it's hard to find great developers.

If your mission as an early stage startup is to disrupt the yoga industry for
example (no offense to this industry at all), then you might quickly run out
of options in terms of product/mission fit if you only use a whiteboard as
your primarily evaluation tool. I really believe the hiring process is totally
broken because it's not taking into account the ability for candidates to
learn and the business impact they could have on a product. It's all about
what they know in the moment and what technologies they've worked with.

~~~
pyzhianov
Ok, if you are going to disrupt the yoga industry, I'll join you even if you
are not backed by "XYZ" :D

~~~
bsvalley
I probably picked up a wrong example :)

------
drakonka
I happen to be building tools, so yes :D

Seriously though, the larger industry I am in and the purpose of my employer
is to make video games. I make tools to make video games. I am invested in the
tools I produce. I am less invested in the types of games we make from a
_playing them_ perspective (in that they're not really the kinds of games I
usually like to play), and don't really care or keep up with most of the
public design debates etc that we often have running about our games. But I am
very invested in our games from a pride-in-our-work-as-a-studio perspective. I
want to help make good products, both for the teams I service through my tools
development and for the end product my employer puts out to external
consumers.

------
Scarblac
Yes, I wouldn't want to work on something that in the end just tries to sell
more widgets, or serve more effective ads. I currently work in water
management software.

~~~
ken
The obvious follow-up is: did you have to compromise on other aspects of the
job (like tooling, salary, or location) to be able to work on a meaningful
project?

~~~
Scarblac
Growth prospects perhaps, it's a pretty small company.

And I tried some different things in the past (computer vision research for
agrotech and food, software development at a medical startup) and recruiter
types find it hard to put me into a neat box. So when I'm looking to switch it
can be hard to find jobs that I like and then to convince them that I'm a good
fit for them. But luckily I'm very happy where I am right now.

------
throwaway_54
I had zero emotional investment at first, but the parts I work with most grew
on me. I also care a lot about the people around me. And I care a lot about
the tools I am using too, I love my setup, and I'm also active in the
community within the company, that's built around that toolset.

If I had to prioritize the above, I care about my team the most, the tools
second and the actual product third.

To value people's care about the product, can be either very idealisic,
totally misguided, or perfectly legit, very highly depending on the
circumstances. Me with my team herd cattles basically, large website and
infra, features come and go, tickets come from business people who themselves
get orders basically. But if I were to gather people around me for the startup
I'm about to start, I'd like to have them to believe that we're doing
something good.

------
hejdnrndk
It’s one thing to not really care about the product you’re building, and
another to feel uncomfortable with what you’re building. I’m in the latter
boat at the moment, and after losing some sleep about it I’ve come to the
conclusion that I need to get out. I’m looking for new opportunities but I
have a family and can’t just walk. In the meantime I’m trying not to let my
feelings effect the quality of my work or my relationships with my coworkers.
It’s challenging.

------
arenaninja
So many good comments in this thread, there are several I agree strongly with
(these are the highlights, but I agree with these comments entirely):

> Any company that offers me better compensation with the same work-life
> balance is one I'd jump ship for immediately.

> Oh, I don't have "passion" for the product? Who gives a shit? I have passion
> for doing the best work I possibly can if I hire on to your company.

> After that 1st phone call it's not about the product or the company anymore,
> it's all about testing you

> Hiring in software is completely broken.

> I currently work in water management software.

My own take: imagine I wrote all of those interesting tidbits, and eventually
I see myself going back to slinging code for physics labs somewhere in the
country, which is how I started. My first web dev project was a CRUD lab
management application that went on to be used for years after they had bought
a solution. That project really mattered and I hope to one day feel that kind
of fulfillment from my code again.

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
I do. I’ve worked at two of the biggest companies in the games industry, I’ve
made two independent iOS games, I’m now about to get into block chain related
work and I’m the founder of a service that provides automated test results
reporting that is growing in usage across the world. I do think the product
matters, but also perhaps more importantly you need to have personal and
professional growth. I realize that growth and product are not necessarily
aligned but if you can make them align it’s the best.

------
mtnGoat
I could frankly care less about tools. I would not work on something i do not
care about, and all tools are fun to use if you are solving fun problems with
a great team of coworkers.

------
fabiandesimone
This question took me by surprise because since I'm not a developer but a
"business/marketing/product guy" the only reason I go into a project is
because I do care about the product. Is so strange reading the answers.

I do appreciate it though, I have a new found respect for my developers that
have shown again and again that they do care what we are building.

------
jgoodhcg
I joined a team because of the eagerness to adopt a modern devops workflow.
Having a nice environment to work in as a Dev almost makes working on shit you
don't care about worthwhile. I'd much rather be working in clean energy,
education, or healthcare. I tell myself I'll get to those industries when I
have more experience...

------
antoineMoPa
Both are important. The end product has to be nice/useful for deeper
motivation. The tools in use can indicate the philosophy of the business and
give hints about the general ambiance of the job. Who would choose to spend 40
hours per week with tools that makes them feel underproductive?

~~~
pyzhianov
Agreed. But if the product doesn't do any good to the world, can you have ANY
motivation at all? Even if the tech is awesome

~~~
throwaway_54
It can work well and the people further up the hierarchy can be happy about
it, and could share this happiness with you with bonuses and other perks. If
this would happen, I'd be more inclined to be invested in the thing, even if
it were not especially the pinnacle of human altruism.

------
itronitron
Most developers I have worked with have cared more about the product they are
building than the tools, but they still care a lot about the tools because
they often improve the product.

------
Jeremy1026
Aspects of it, sure. I'm more enthusiastic about the founders enthusiasm in
the product. You can tell that he really believes in what we are building.

------
cm2012
I am a marketing consultant (So a little different) but I am extremely picky
about clients. I only want to promote good products.

------
Const-me
Yes. Also I don't care much about tools, I like my visual studio but I'm ok
using anything else that does the job.

~~~
quickthrower2
Visual Studio is such a good tool it sort of means you don't have to care.

------
borplk
I don't get easily excited so if I were to set the bar there I would struggle
a lot with finding jobs.

