
Driving Is Losing Its Allure for More Americans - bootload
http://www.wsj.com/articles/driving-losing-its-allure-for-more-americans-1453285801
======
RcouF1uZ4gsC
I was not to see the whole article because it is behind a paywall, but one
thing that might affect the driving habits of the under 25 cohort is that
people in general are waiting later to have children.

Having children dramatically changes the calculus involved with driving a car.
When I was single I really did not have to shop much, it was easy for me to
walk or bike to school or work even in bad weather and I could choose a not so
good place to live that was cheap and close to work cause I really did not
spend too much time at home except for crashing at night.

With children now, I have to buy a lot more supplies. To save money I often
buy stuff in bulk. Also, I am more concerned about neighborhood safety and
good schools. Now a place that meets my criteria at a price I can afford is
likely to not be within walking or biking distance from work. Also, when I
want to go somewhere in inclement weather, I find it more preferable for me to
put my children in my dry climate controlled car, than to have to worry about
if they are getting wet, cold, or hot.

My point is not to talk about driving being good or bad but to point out that
having children can be a huge confounding factor when looking driving trends
and drawing conclusions about these trends without taking into account the
larger demographic trends surrounding when people are having children is likes
to be misleading.

~~~
pnathan
This is a big deal, unfortunately. I am super onboard with the urbanization
movement, but cost of a 3-4 bedroom living space is _not_ cheap in an urban
area. I _really_ don't want to raise my kids in a suburb - my wife and I grew
up in that environment and it was unpleasant. But we may be forced that
direction just to afford to have enough space for 1-2 children. :-(

edit to add some color commentary: I would _mostly_ like to sell my car and
not buy another one; I would like to use public transit everywhere; I would
like to live in a high-density area with 6+ story residences. _Many_ benefits
accrue in these situations; I don't understand the pleasure or enjoyment of
living outside of that kind of environment - having done so myself, the more
urban the area, the better living it is.

~~~
mdorazio
What about suburban family life was unpleasant? I'm curious what you think the
upsides are for raising kids in a city, which I personally think is a bad
idea. Kids need an environment where they can go outside and be kids without
all the difficulties a city adds.

~~~
rayiner
Suburbs are highly segregated economically and racially. I grew up in the
Northern VA suburbs and didn't meet a black person until middle school.
Suburbs also make kids totally dependent on their parents to get to
activities, friends, etc. Finally, suburbs are incredibly dangerous. The #1
cause of death for teenagers is car accidents. Your 15-19 year old is a lot
safer in the city than driving around the suburbs.

~~~
CM30
Maybe it's different over there in the US, but as someone who lived in a lot
of surburban places in the UK and other parts of Europe... well, they're not
all that different from the standard town or city here. Perfectly possible to
get around without a car, with a decent high street, various transport
connections and a bunch of nearby activities for kids and families. You could
(theoretically) live and work in these areas while relying solely on public
transport.

Yet despite this, I'd say that the decline in the number of kids and young
people driving is a fair bit less than it seemingly is in the states.

~~~
tptacek
It is very different in the US. US suburbs were designed around the
automobile, and their original raison dêtre is to be accessible only via car:
they were sited just far enough by from the nearest urban area (or adjacent
suburb) to allow predominate free-standing houses with yards.

------
mc32
Driving was symbolic of freedom, getting away from supervision, so much that
it became a rite of passage and every teenager wanted to be able to take a
date out in a car. There were open roads, vast spaces to see, many low tech
things to discover and to show someone else.

Now with traffic congestion in addition to rising costs of ownership,
insurance, etc. and many other options for taking dates out, access to cars
isn't vital, what's more, it's no longer symbolic of freedom but rather
symbolic of the establishment, consumerism, suburbia and oil, things out of
vogue. And now there are other more modern avenues for exploration,
entertainment and finding kindred spirits.

To add one more thing, now access to cars does not require ownership. You have
car-sharing services [citycarshare, zipcar] and you have ride-sharing
platforms which make access to vehicles less of a binary choice of
ownership/no ownership.

~~~
agumonkey
It's still a thing these days. For years I was pressured into getting a
driving permit but hated the roads so delayed it. Just got it, it was exciting
for a month (mastering the physics of the vehicle mostly), now I'm free to ..
get food at the mall [2]. I tell this to people, and they're "NOoooo you're
independent, you can do anything" with shiny eyes.

[1] angry drivers, jam, not green, enjoyed walking, running, biking..

[2] also it's incredibly stressful to me. I'm constantly checking everything
(and that doesn't even save from bumping into cars because I can't scan 360deg
in parallel).

~~~
Swizec
> also it's incredibly stressful to me. I'm constantly checking everything
> (and that doesn't even save from bumping into cars because I can't scan
> 360deg in parallel).

This goes away after a while. Studies have shown that new drivers try to focus
on everything, while experienced drivers only focus on key points.

As a result, experienced drivers get in less accidents.

Basically you get a sixth sense for driving. But you need a big corpus of data
for that.

~~~
agumonkey
Indeed, In a few months you see how your brain optimizes information seeking
and synchronization. Now a quick glance n mirrors is enough to know presence
and distance. Before that I'd have to look at the thing like painting. I don't
trust my 6th sense though, I often drop too fast too deep in the confident
state.

------
robertcorey
This article was really eye opening for me
[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-
of-c...](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-
commuting/) . I just started my first post college job and I made sure to move
within biking distance of my work.

~~~
jacquesm
That blog has a _ton_ of good stuff on it, even if plenty of it will sound
strange to new readers at first. I'm not on board with some of his
psychological trickery (namecalling people that don't follow his belief system
for instance) but that doesn't change the fact that if you're young and making
good money that this blog pretty much guarantees you're going to be set by the
time you reach your forties if not sooner.

Highly recommended.

~~~
miseg
Jacques, what's your impression of where he puts his wealth (stock exchange).

I'm in Ireland, and ETF index fund gains are taxed at ~40% each seven years,
outside of your retirement fund. It seems like other avenues are more viable
here in Ireland for wealth building before your retirement years, like running
a business or maybe property ownership.

~~~
jacquesm
The advice given is _very_ US centric, you'd do well to research your specific
options and figure out what is best for you rather than to adopt his
strategies without modification, it is more about the principle than about the
letter of what's written there.

In NL we have (with respect to any kind of capital gains on private holdings)
an incredibly fortuitous situation (no tax paid at all beyond a 1% per annum
fictuous income, so that 1% of the value of your holdings gets added to your
income which is then taxed at the normal rate).

In Ireland the index fund route may not be an option, but there may be other
alternatives (such as direct real estate investments) that have a similar
risk/return ration but a better tax picture. Your best advisor with stuff like
this would be a local tax attorney.

~~~
miseg
Thank you for the actionable advice.

------
Animats
"Peak driving" was back in 2004.[1]

[1] [http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/crash-
th...](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/crash-the-decline-
of-us-driving-in-6-charts/281528/)

 _“The broad acre city, where every family will have at least an acre of land,
is the inevitable municipality of the future . . . We live now in cities of
the past, slaves of the machine and of traditional building. We cannot solve
our living and transportation problems by burrowing under or climbing over,
and why should we? We will spread out, and in so doing will transform our
human habitation sites into those allowing beauty of design and landscaping,
sanitation and fresh air, privacy and playgrounds, and a plot whereon to raise
things.”_ \-- Frank Lloyd Wright

~~~
gregpilling
your linked article says at the end:

"But it would also be silly to suggest the economy didn't play a role. Gas
prices began their dizzying rise early in the decade, which discouraged
driving. Real estate cooled off in 2006, which discouraged spending on
expensive items like cars. It's not as if everything was peachy until the day
Lehman imploded.

That's why it's very hard to look at these charts and discern anything about
the future. The degree to which Americans have taken their foot off the gas
pedal in just a few years is pretty remarkable. "

------
ronnier
Why I don't like driving:

1) We are preyed on by police as a source of revenue via traffic tickets.

2) Parking is increasingly becoming more and more difficult.

~~~
akgerber
Parking is massively subsidized in the United States (read 750 pages about it!
[http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-
Edition/dp/1...](http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-
Edition/dp/193236496X)) and drivers only get tickets because they habitually
violate tons of laws (I've never gotten a ticket in my 12 years of licensure).

~~~
omegaham
I've gotten one. One was enough. At this point, I accelerate up to the speed
limit and stick the car into cruise control unless forced to change my speed.
Haven't gotten a ticket since.

~~~
ascagnel_
Where do you live? In the NY metro area, once you leave the city itself,
generally the speed limit is the absolute slowest speed you can travel safely
before traffic will overwhelm you. In a 65MPH zone, 75-80MPH is generally the
speed of travel; anyone traveling slower than that may become a hazard as
drivers change lanes to pass them.

~~~
omegaham
Just outside Portland.

Generally, I sit in the right lane and cruise along. I don't sit in the
passing lane, and I keep my distance from other cars (which is easy, because
they're usually going faster than me). If I can, I sit 200 yards behind a
tractor trailer and cruise at their speed. I'm in no hurry.

On residential roads, I give zero fucks about who's behind me. I'm going the
speed limit, so they are too. They won't be paying my speeding ticket, so I
couldn't care less.

I do know that this strategy can be unsafe, though - when I was in the Marine
Corps, I had to drive into San Diego to pick up Marines from Balboa in a
government van. It had a GPS that would go off if you went above the speed
limit at any point, meaning that your command would get a nastygram if you
went 2 miles an hour over the speed limit. I went 5 miles under the speed
limit at all points, and it was hilariously unsafe. People were _mad_.

Yet again, though, they weren't going to pay the half salary and reduced rank
that I would've gotten from getting busted down, and they definitely wouldn't
have been doing restriction time with me. So fuck 'em.

------
ryandrake
I don't see driving going away for me any time soon, for the following
reasons:

1\. I live 50 miles from work and 10 miles from my nearest close friend.

2\. House is within bicycling distance to a single train station, but the
train doesn't go anywhere useful. You basically need auto transportation once
you get off it, which makes it pointless.

3\. Kid who will be in school soon, and is too far from the nearest elementary
school to walk.

4\. Hobbies (e.g. wood working) that often require me to haul large heavy
items from stores miles away.

5\. Generally we like to go out and do stuff. Whether it's across town or
across the state, there's really only one option: You have to drive.

People don't realize how big the USA is, and how far things are apart. Unless
you're in a dense urban environment ($$$) you're kind of stuck needing to
drive.

~~~
mrtron
1\. You could gain a few hours a day of leisure with an autonomous car. 2\.
Sounds like you won't use that train in this scenario. 3\. I am sure someone
will figure out safe autonomous kids->school delivery. 4\. Perfect case for
hitting the 'large truck' button in an app. Or more likely, stores will have
delivery well sorted out. 5\. Longer term rentals seem like another thing that
will get easily sorted out.

You might always need longer distance transit, but it seems unlikely you will
continue needing to drive.

~~~
ryandrake
Once the cost of a car (amortized over 10 years) + gas + maintenance +
insurance > the cost to rent a car for all of my driving needs, I'm ditching
the car. But it isn't anywhere close yet (and I have records for myself for 20
years).

------
simplyinfinity
The next 20 years will be quite interesting to say the least. Electric cars +
autonomous Cars + Uber = no need for people to own cars but pay a small fee.
People will start to reason about this ... "Why own a car that does nothing
all day why i can just lease one"

I think things will go one of 2 ways:

1) people will lease their cars to other while they don't need them while at
work and at home at night

2) people will lease cars from uber/tesla/apple/google..whoever

And we will use those services for a lot less than what we are currently
paying for a cab, and certainly a lot less than what would be the cost of
owning the car.

~~~
dalke
1) Is there really a demand to lease out cars during the off hours? With
personally rented cars, who is in charge of cleaning it up, or determining if
the vehicle is sufficiently clean, or figuring out who did any damage?

Or that the car is sufficiently maintained, the spare tire has air, etc.?

2) Will I be able to rent the car with baby seats (three seats please, for the
triplets), ski racks, bike racks, etc. and how much extra will that cost? Will
I have to load/unload the diapers, gym equipment, toolbox, sand for extra
traction, first aid kit, etc. after each trip?

And yes, I have kept sand in the back of my car, and used it during icy
conditions to get out of a friend's driveway.

~~~
mrtron
Sounds like you are in the late majority.

[http://a5.files.readwrite.com/image/upload/c_fit,cs_srgb,dpr...](http://a5.files.readwrite.com/image/upload/c_fit,cs_srgb,dpr_1.0,q_80,w_620/MTIyNDU4MDA3NDE3Mjg1OTEz.jpg)

Maintenance becomes easier, not harder, with a car sharing service. You would
have winter tires instead of worrying about having some sand in your trunk.
Also likely would have 4WD, with electric it works quite well. Of course you
would have a first aid kit, toolkbox, spare tire, etc. Diapers and baby seats
are a hassle for about 5 years per adult, so I am sure there would be a
solution available.

~~~
dalke
Or you're in the "techie: try it". Since this technology doesn't really exist
yet and nearly everything about it is pure prediction.

Your "of course" isn't really true, is it? I mean, rental cars don't come with
a toolbox or first aid kit. To be fair, the toolbox was because I had a crappy
car and needed to be able to fix it. A car rental service would include
maintenance, but that extra work, and cycling out the cars more often, would
probably be more expensive than having my own car, no?

(BTW, the "spare tire" was in the #1 category, under "people will lease their
cars to other while they don't need them", not the #2 category of "people will
lease cars".)

I feel like you handwaved the 'there would be a solution available' by
considering and dismissing only one point, and not seeing it as an example of
a larger set of problems.

Where is the ski rack? The gun rack? The bike rack? The dog crate? The trailer
hitch? The tinted windows? Choice of color? After-market satellite radio - or
CB? Car underlighting? The special sound system? Fog lamps? "Baby on Board"
decals? Wheelchair lifts, lowered floor, or scooter hoist for those with
handicaps? Phone or laptop charger?

Skiing friends of mine would leave their gear (boots, skis, packs, masks,
gloves, poles, etc. plus duct tape and tools to fix minor problems) in the
back of their SUV so they could take off for the mountains during snow season.
It's a hassle to lug all that equipment in and out for each trip, and you
might easily forget something. My mother leaves a sewing machine (one of five)
and other sewing gear in her trunk to make it easier to go to quilting events.

> You would have winter tires

Perhaps. It's hard to say. I lived in Santa Fe, and in the city didn't need
snow tires. My friends lived in the country, at higher elevation, on the end
of a long dirt driveway. New Mexico has a lot of dirt roads, so it's best to
be prepared. Even if the cars in Santa Fe had their tires swapped out, what
about the cars of day-trippers from Albuquerque? Or those in Sacramento who
decide to go to Tahoe?

As I only needed the sand once, it seems like an expense to swap out the tires
each year for something that isn't essential. How much will that add to the
cost?

------
soylentcola
For me it's not so much about "allure" as it is economics. I live with my
girlfriend and she has a modest car that she's paid off. We both work downtown
and live about 3 miles from work. We mostly ride to work together so we only
pay for one parking pass and use one car's worth of fuel.

When weather is nice I may ride my bike to work or ride the motorcycle I
bought for shorter trips that don't require the car or highway driving. Either
way, the bike cost maybe a third of what her car cost but neither of us is
paying off a vehicle loan.

I've considered getting a second car. Something used and under $10k. Maybe
even under $8k. Basically I think about it those handful of times it's not
convenient to share the car and I need to pay $10 to take a cab/Uber or rent
something once a year for a longer trip while she needs the car.

But I can never really justify it. As much as I'd like my own car, even a
perfect balance (cheap/old enough to be affordable but no to much that
maintenance makes up the difference) would cost way more than hiring or
renting something for the times I'd use it.

------
rocky1138
What Americans once called Driving is no longer really possible. Due to rules,
traffic, and social pressure, you simply cannot let loose and have fun in a
car anymore. What Americans do now is called Commuting, and that, of course,
has zero allure. For some reason, we still call it Driving, but that should
change since Commuting is much more accurate.

------
human_breather
Driving is amazing. I can travel further faster, making it easier to see
friends. I can travel with more stuff making grocery shopping faster and
easier. I can store things in my car which saves me worry and time. Driving
can even be fun! I'd hate driving if I had to live in the middle of a dense
city though.

Biking and walking are also amazing. It's healthy, and can be quite social. I
can walk without having to worry about finding parking. I don't need to worry
about keys, license, etc. It's simply impossible to walk/bike everywhere
though in the majority of the country.

~~~
simplyinfinity
If you live in a city where everything you need is 1-2 blocks away and you
have good public transport, Why would you need a car that sits idle 95% of the
time? Just because you don't have to carry a bag ?

~~~
xrcltr
It is so much nicer living outside a city compared to living in one.

~~~
dllthomas
That depends a lot on the city and situation.

------
dopeboy
Couple thoughts coming from a late 80s baby raised in the burbs:

* Cars are a symbol of freedom. You don't have to ask mom or dad to drop you off at the movie theaters. You can actually do things after school with your friends rather than go straight home. You can blast music that expresses _your_ counter cultural identity as loud as you want without anyone telling you to turn it down.

* Cars are an expression of identity. If you're about status, you rock the Benz. If you're about strength, you have the raised pickup truck. If you're about speed, you have the Civic with VTEC turbo, NOS, and the loud exhaust.

* Cars are _fun_. There is no better feeling than having your favorite music turned high, your windows down, and rapidly accelerating through traffic. The roar that you hear and _feel_ from your car tops off the experience. I haven't been able to reproduce this rush on other vehicles like boats or bikes.

~~~
mikeash
Interesting that all three of your examples involve anti-social behaviour. I
have nothing against cars, but blasting loud music or a loud exhaust is a dick
move.

------
anexprogrammer
Hardly surprising. Where's the appeal of driving when you spend so much more
of your time stuck in nose-to-tail traffic jams and breathing fumes? The "open
road" is either hundreds of miles away or something you ask your parents
about. Insurance is becoming unaffordable for youngsters. Fuel is near £5 a
gallon.

People do most of their shopping online and the supermarket delivers, so
there's no weekly need of the car like there once was. Twenty years ago you
pretty much needed a car just for the weekly groceries. So one of the key
motivators has gone. You're left transporting with toddler age children as one
of the key motivators, so you can delay getting one until you're thinking
about having a family. As we're having families later and later in life...

A car is simply no longer something as desirable as it once was.

------
kirklove
Can understand this sentiment in younger people. As someone in his mid-40s,
even living in New York City, I just picked up a car (after 8 years of not
having one) and have been enjoying driving it so much. It's just something I
grew up with and love to do as an activity.

~~~
trentmb
I suppose it depends on the driving.

Earlier this morning I was cruising some empty county roads, windows down
enjoying the (relatively) warm weather and sunshine, blasting some Chris
Thile:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8I07VIxyQM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8I07VIxyQM).

If I was stuck in the stop & go city traffic where having my windows down
meant getting a face full of exhaust, I'd hate it to.

------
hanniabu
I love driving, even when there's traffic. I have XM radio and this is really
my only/easiest way of discovering new music so I see longer rides as a
benefit. Get to just relax, listen to good tunes, and get some thoughts
straight.

However, I can see driving as being an inconvenience to many due to things
such as ticketing/insurance, parking issues, traffic for those that don't
allot themselves enough time to commute, car maintenance, and the fact that
our infrastructure is crumbling and nobody really enjoys diving into a pothole
at 30+ mph. I know I'm associating owning a car with the enjoyment of driving
a car, but I do believe they go hand in hand for many.

------
petsormeat
I'm 50, and an American. I've never owned a car. I can attest to the stigma of
not traveling via personal motor vehicle, and the senseless barriers we've
erected to getting through one's daily life by means other than car.

I'm cheered by these splashy blurbs, but I'm unconvinced they report a
permanent trend: we still have a huge inventory of office park sprawl, strip
mall wastelands, and residential "neighborhoods" with no sidewalks, with more
being developed.

------
AI_Overlord
I keep seeing articles like this pop up here and there. My gut feeling tells
me that someone is pushing an agenda. Even in NYC a car for me is really
useful. I use it to take family to airport, pick them up from the airport,
shopping at costco, lowes, homedepot, etc. A taxi cannot beat the convenience
of owning one. But that is just my experience.

Could this just be Uber trying to convince us to use their service? Maybe this
is one of those submarine articles pg mentions in one of his articles?

~~~
chjohasbrouck
Source:
[http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html)

------
jusben1369
I think it's 3 things (I have teenagers about to get permits)

1) Parents don't let their kids drive or walk anywhere due to safety concerns
(real or unfounded) So kids have built in chauffeurs and thus a lot less
motivation to drive anywhere. 2) Uber 3) Work returning to city centers.

Teenagers have parents driving them everywhere. They use Uber at college and
then get a job in a city. I guess they could take on the expense and headache
of car ownership but there's very little upside.

------
zipwitch
When the WSJ says "more Americans" does it actually mean that, or does it mean
"more people who live in the US and make at least $100,000 annually"?

~~~
ascagnel_
They mean more Americans.

For example, New Jersey has a number of smaller cities (Newark, Paterson,
Passaic, Trenton, Camden, etc) in close proximity to major metro areas (NYC,
Philadelphia) that suffered debilitating white flight a generation ago. These
cities are still economically depressed and are mostly inhabited by non-whites
and tend to have lower incomes.

As much as the majority here seems to be extolling the virtues of
urbanization, the real challenge are cities like this: what are currently
barely-functional city cores that must be rehabilitated without substantially
displacing current residents.

------
technofiend
Relative to how it was in the 60's? (which predate me) I'm sure it has lost a
great deal of its luster. The big car manufacturers were competing with each
other to produce the biggest sleepers - cars with underrated horsepower both
for competitive and insurance purposes - and they could be ordered from the
dealer with very powerful engines.

In my hometown in the 60s and 70s you had kids simply circling the park for
hours to see, be seen and show off their cars. You had drag racing up and down
straight lines of road the kids had marked off at exactly 1/4 mile. TV shows
featured cars as major plot points or even characters. Think Grandpa's Dragula
in The Munsters, My Mother The Car and even into the 80's with Kitt and Knight
Rider.

I think the modding and racing culture is still there, but it's moved on into
pc building, make spaces and perhaps even open source contributions. There are
other ways now to do something interesting and get your name out there than
spinning a wrench. And gas prices and emission laws on the tail of the gas
crises in the early 1970s certainly played its part in the death of car
culture. Just my humble opinion of course.

~~~
manigandham
> modding and racing culture is still there, but it's moved on into pc
> building, make spaces and perhaps even open source contributions.

I don't think so. Cars and computers/programming are completely different
interests. I'm into both but the enjoyment of cars isn't really matched by
anything else and I can't see it being replaced. Neither would any of my
friends who are into cars. There's still a big thriving car culture out there,
it's just moved upscale a bit due to the other things you described like
rising costs and reduction in time and space.

~~~
technofiend
I think it depends on where you grow up and what's valued in your area - but
kids are very much influenced by their peers. There's still car culture - I
wasn't arguing that there isn't - I was saying for your average high school
kid in the little Texas town I'm talking about it doesn't have the same
influence it once did. Of course I haven't surveyed the kids so I don't have
anything beyond anecdotal data but I know the park is no longer encircled for
hours by kids in cars every Sunday afternoon. Their interests lie elsewhere.

------
pcurve
Car ownership is becoming less fun. Recent cars are:

1\. More difficult to repair.

2\. More prone to breakage due to complexity

3\. Less fun to drive. Good luck finding stick shift.

I'd hate to be high school student these days.

~~~
omegaham
> 2\. More prone to breakage due to complexity

I agree with a lot of the newer features, but it's a fact that old luxury
features are now standard, (and more reliable than the old luxury features)
and the regular features are more reliable than ever. Transmissions last
longer, brakes last longer, engines last longer, tires last longer. Hell, tire
technology has gotten so good that you actually have to _do_ something to get
a flat. It used to be that you just got flats every now and then. Not anymore.

Basically, if you want luxury features that will break at about the same rate
as the luxury features on cars in the 80s, you can get them. If you want a
really basic model car that doesn't have motorized doors and electrically
controlled seats, you can get that, too.

And it'll get fantastic gas mileage, and it won't kill you in a car crash,
either.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g)

------
barney54
If driving is losing its allure, then how are people getting around? The
reason I wonder is that in some places like LA, public transit ridership is
down, not up as you would expect. [http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-
me-ridership-slum...](http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-ridership-
slump-20160127-story.html)

~~~
ascagnel_
Uber, Lyft, and other ride-sharing services are one option. The other thing to
look at would be unemployment numbers (a sudden spike in new unemployment
claims or a trough in total unemployment enrollment could correlate to a drop
in commuting).

------
SCAQTony
Interest or lack of interest in regards to driving is primarily regional. This
cities adore the car:

1\. Austin 2\. Los Angeles 3\. Daytona Beach 4\. Detroit 5\. Portland 6\.
Phoenix 7\. Snoqualmie 8\. Atlanta 9\. Los Vegas

[https://www.yahoo.com/autos/bp/10-best-cities-automotive-
ent...](https://www.yahoo.com/autos/bp/10-best-cities-automotive-
enthusiasts-182243980.html)

~~~
dota_fanatic
Methinks the author is out of touch. Austin suffers from too many cars on too
few, small roads, so the traffic is atrocious during work hours. Their
population is exploding and the infrastructure cannot keep up. The parking
situation is bad, unless you can afford to just throw money down the drain.

As a result, there's a large biking population, despite how dangerous it is
biking on those crowded streets. There's a good attempt at bike lanes, but not
good enough.

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Spooky23
I don't think driving is losing its allure, I think people are making less and
cars are getting more and more expensive.

$20k was the entry point for a decent car in the late 90s... Now it's north of
$30k.

Renting rides from Uber is a suckers bet. There's a reason why poor people,
business travelers and drunks are the only people who took taxis pre über.

~~~
JauntTrooper
> 20k was the entry point for a decent car in the late 90s... Now it's north
> of $30k.

You can get a brand new Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Mazda 3, or Chevy Cruze -
with lots of very nice features - for 15k to 19k.

~~~
Spooky23
MSRP on a civic was under $10k in the 90s, and you could get a midsize sedan
like a Camry or Accord for $15k.

~~~
JauntTrooper
That doesn't seem so bad though, right? Just looked up the MSRPs:

2016 Civic Sedan: $18,640 1996 Civic Sedan: $10,350

So average increase has been 3.0% per year over the period (CAGR). Inflation
over the same period has been 2.2%, so it's a somewhat more expensive in
constant dollars than it was 20 years ago (~$2500) but also comes with much
better features.

There also are cheaper cars today than the Civic (i.e. 2016 Nissan Versa MSRP
is $11,990, and you almost certainly negotiate down past MSRP).

~~~
brandon272
2015 Nissan Micra, 2015 Chevy Spark, 2015 Mitsubishi Mirage are all under $10K
as well. Safer and arguably better equipped than a '96 Civic.

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EvanPlaice
Cars used to be fun. Car companies used to encourage the enthusiast culture.
Enthusiast culture has changed to mostly rich kids showing off the Beamer
their parents bought them. very few actually do their own work.

Nowadays, cars are more expensive. Insurance is mandatory. Owners are
discouraged from doing their own maintenance. Commuting to work only gets
worse over time. And, to add insult to injury, gas prices still suck despite
oil prices being the lowest they have been in decades.

All of the things that made car ownership fun for young guys is discouraged by
manufacturers because they've shifted their profit models to depend heavily on
long-term service/maintenance.

If I move close to a city any time soon the first thing I plan to do is get
rid of my car. at this point it's just an expensive burden.

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gadders
I can understand people who live in cities not buying a car, but I know
several people in their 30's who have not even learnt to drive.

I find this strange to understand. I'd put driving up there as a skill most
people should know, like swimming.

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raarts
Interestingly enough, dutch media for a few years have been reporting a
similar trend among young people in The Netherlands.

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fulafel
Interesting to see that neither in the article or in the 166 comments
discussing everyone's personal feelings toward driving, nobody even mentions
the environment or climate change, the ethics of unnecessary burning of fossil
fuels. In Europe this aspect would come up pretty quickly. A kind of taboo?

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ilaksh
Credit is tighter and the economy is rough.

I envision automated lightweight safe single-passenger vehicles and something
like a Hyperloop for long distance.

[http://runvnc.github.io/tinyvillage/](http://runvnc.github.io/tinyvillage/)

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eximius
I would never give up the autonomy that driving allows.

It _might_ be cheaper for me to do some public transit + Uber or something
(seriously doubt it where I love), but it'd have to be basically free for me
to accept being dependent on others so much.

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EGreg
That's because more people are able to work from home, and cities have finally
become more walkable, as more areas are built up. In the suburbs, driving is
still big.

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theworstshill
Money and congestion are to blame. The car still gives you incredible freedom
and saves a lot of time.

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nyan4
And it is about time! This crazy fuel-consumerism is simply unsustainable.

