

What I Learned Buying a Rug in Turkey - markbao
http://academicbiz.typepad.com/piloted/2007/01/what_i_learned_.html

======
ced
_Look at the weave, this is how you can tell it is not machine made._

I hope he didn't believe that. Turkey is full of fake. People don't have a
continuous relationship with the seller, so the seller focuses on selling
something that _looks_ great. For fruit and vegetables, this isn't much of an
issue (What You Taste Is What You Get), but I struggled to find a bike. All
bells and whistle, no quality.

That's the positive side of megabrands and chain-stores, they have reputations
and standards.

I was surprised by how social haggling was in Turkey. As far as I can tell, a
lot of sellers do not lower the price because you're going to leave the
transaction (i.e.: the rational way); they lower it because they want to feel
good about themselves. Typically, college students get better prices that way.
Foreigners can get either royally screwed, or offered a free meal at a
restaurant. Turks want to think of themselves as being great hosts (and they
are).

I tried a few times to tell a merchant: I can get a better price elsewhere.
Even if it was true, they didn't care.

We went to a high-end restaurant last week. 6 foreigners, some obviously older
and well-off, and one Turkish girl. We sit, start eating, then want to order
wine. She haggled. And won. I still don't get it. Presumably, the reputation
of the restaurant was at stake. It'd be rationally selfish, but still.
Foreigners are not coming back!

The requirement to haggle in so many situations has some unfortunate day-to-
day consequences. Some Turks become used to lying under all circumstances.
(though to be fair, I got some of my best relationships ever here)

Last anecdote: some cafe manager told me he has trouble finding personel. They
pay an employee 1.50$ / hour (1$ if you're unexperienced, no joke) in my city.
The price of a beer might be around 2.50$. The ratio is much worse than in the
Western world, so I ask him, why don't you increase the pay? Nuh-uh, he said.
Things don't work that way around here.

------
babul
I see this more of a lesson in persistence paying off, and understanding your
client, their needs, how to predict and answer their questions, and behave to
sell effectively (in this case usage of the environment) - things any
entrepreneur in any business needs to know.

Yes, it is a social hack and manipulation to an extent (I don’t agree with
bringing the kids in etc., that is low), but these are the same lessons and
issues found in most business (merchant wants as much as he can get, client is
often reluctant to buy until they see the benefits to them, and in order to
reach a deal there is often much bartering and negotiations to be had).

Are some of the people we meet and network with, especially in business
conferences and trade-shows, any different? Are price negotiations between the
companies we interact with any different?

Simply put, the rug sellers understand what they are selling, what people are
willing to pay, and how to sell it to them, and these are things all people in
_business_ should know. If win-win can be achieved (client thinks they are
getting a bargain and seller is happy with sale price) then all the better. If
you buy a rug, are happy with the rug, are happy with the price, what is the
problem?

It is really market competition, and in many cases desperation, that is the
root of the unethical behaviour. I do not agree with using pressure tactics,
misleading "consultative" selling (was what he was teaching them about rugs
true or was it tailored to his needs?), inferior goods supplied ("bait-and-
switch"), or the multitude of other things that occur. But I see similar
behaviour occurring in many high pressure environments, especially in the
financial services sector (some stock brokers come to mind).

~~~
Chocobean
+1 to you sir. The author did not think that he was conned or purchased an
inferior product or paid too much or even purchased something unnecessary.
This is a success story of how to sell a luxury item that _both_ parties agree
was an unnecessary item, with the customer being actually satisfied at the
end.

The magic of the Turkish Carpet isn't about closing the sale, it's about the
sale process accumulating in the fact that you feel good that you've made the
purchase. The entire process was really all about the customer receiving
attention, trivia, entertainment and respect -- these are all added values to
the end product.

A lot of web apps are completely unnecessary : what can we learn from these
guys to sell well made but unnecessary stuff?

------
greyman
I must confess that I very much hate bargaining. I can't overcome the feeling
that the other person tries to steal my money, and now I have to be careful
and defend myself to reduce the damage. Then, I will end up with a stuff I
don't really need.

Regarding the Turkey story, I just would not follow the man no matter what. I
can't help, but persuasion doesn't work on me - the more other person tries to
persuade me, the less likely I will buy anything.

~~~
shard
Pretty much everything is open to bargaining, it's just a matter of whether
it's worth your time. If you don't bargain, you are automatically allowing the
other person to steal your money. You bet I bargained when I bought my house,
when I bought my car.

I've seen bargaining even in department stores, a woman haggling down the
price of Coach bags in Macy's by offering to buy several at once. She got the
discount.

Just like you, I don't like being sold to, but I have no problem bargaining
for something that I seek out myself. In Thailand and India I bargained for
clothes, for my backpack, for cab fare, for souvenirs. It was not adversarial
at all, and often both me and the merchant was having fun, trying to read each
other's minds, pushing and retreating, biding our time. In a way it's kind of
like dating =)

~~~
froo
_In a way it's kind of like dating_

You mean, if you're not careful about how you do it, you might end up screwed
and coming home with something that you didn't want? :)

(sorry, had to be said)

~~~
shard
Of course. No risk, no reward. No guts, no glory.

------
axod
I absolutely hate bargaining like this, and countries where you're hounded and
hassled to buy things without price tags on. For me, it's an education on how
not to do business. It's quite like spam email.

Unfortunately this system just doesn't work with me. I'm less likely to go in
a shop with no price tags on, because then I know I'll have to ask the
shopkeeper the price of everything. It's inefficient. I guess if you grow up
with the haggling you develop strategies for coping maybe, but I'm _so_ glad
to not be in a country where you have to deal with all that.

~~~
delano
I agree that bargaining is inefficient for small transactions but it is the
basis of business, everywhere in the world, regardless of whether or not there
are price tags.

~~~
biohacker42
Ah yes, but that's thanks to the absence of information. And technology
(internet especially) are filling in the missing info, and putting the middle
men, a.k.a those who bargain, out of business.

The railroads did exactly the same thing with other middle men. In general,
that is how markets become more efficient, by putting hagglers out of
business.

~~~
delano
Being informed improves your ability to bargain, it doesn't negate the need
for bargaining.

------
shawndrost
I had some similar experiences in Morocco; going to a bargaining country is a
great education. An example of the kind of social hack they use is that if
they offer a tourist their hand, the tourist feels compelled to shake it. One
guy used this trick, then used the beat of inaction to wrap a snake around my
friend's neck. She was understandably startled, and while she was standing
there confused, he pulled out some other snakes and draped them on her arms.
It took about thirty seconds to disentangle her, at which point the man said
"pay me".

This kind of trick can evoke some powerful negative emotions. A friend was
somehow tricked into allowing a hawker to start tying an intricate string
bracelet using his finger as the base. His finger was stuck in the knot, and
the guy ignored my friend's requests to be let go. It ended with quite a lot
of shouting.

~~~
hugh
_A friend was somehow tricked into allowing a hawker to start tying an
intricate string bracelet using his finger as the base. His finger was stuck
in the knot, and the guy ignored my friend's requests to be let go. It ended
with quite a lot of shouting._

Oh yeah, some African guys in France tried that one on me. The best response I
managed was to look 'em dead in the eye, and say "Sorry, I don't speak
English". That'll confuse 'em for long enough to get away.

~~~
ia
in the uk, kids will come up to you with puppy-dog eyes and just hold out
their hands. i was at a bus stop and a 10-year-old in _designer_ clothes came
up to me. i laughed and told him i wasn't giving money to someone dressed in
nicer clothes than i was. he didn't budge. then i told him i didn't have any
cash on me (all i had was traveler's checks at that point, plus bus fare). he
didn't budge. finally, i reached in my pocket and pulled out all the change i
had--probably about 20p. i dropped it in his hand and said, "ok ok, you got
me." he looked at the money with disdain, dropped it on the ground, and put
his hand out again. by that time, the bus had arrived, so i was able to end
the interaction, but talk about persistence (stupidity? stubbornness? many
words apply.). i sometimes wonder how long he would have stood there had the
bus not arrived when it did.

------
waleedka
There is also perceptual contrast. By explaining that the rug is worth $3000,
it makes $1100 look very cheap.

------
ashleyw
Turkey is nice, been a few times. You really need to become immune from this
kind of thing, or at least play them at their own game. If they say 100 euros,
you say 20 and agree on 40. Seriously - they are there to rip you off and
would sell anything for any price if they thought they had got you to pay more
than you first wanted to. :)

~~~
akd
In India I once hailed an auto rickshaw and had him take me about half a
kilometer in the rain. I asked him in American-accented English what the fare
was, and he said 200 rupees. I started yelling at him in perfect Bengali that
I wasn't born yesterday even though I am a foreigner, and that I spend a lot
of time in India. He countered with an offer of 10 rupees, and I gave him 20
because I was laughing so hard. The sad thing is I know that the 200 rupees
must work on some people.

~~~
apollo
It would probably work on me. What is that.. like $4?

~~~
akd
$5.

------
misterbwong
If you are interested in some light reading on the topic of influence and
negotiation, I definitely recommend reading the book that the author
references. It's titled Influence: The psychology of persuasion by Robert
Cialdini.

While the principles discussed are pretty simple (they were all named in the
article), Cialdini explains them very well. They are immediately applicable
and will definitely be useful for anyone needing to influence/manage other
people.

------
johnyzee
I quickly tire of this kind of bargaining, particularly because most sellers'
'friendliness' invariably turns to anything between indifference and hostility
as soon as they understand that you are wise to their game and they will not
make the tourist premium off of you. On more than one occasion in Turkey,
sellers have abused me just because I refused to budge from a price I knew was
reasonable (which I had gotten in other shops).

At least this is true for tourist destinations. I've had more enjoyable
experiences off the beaten tourist path in South East Asia. Generally though,
in the long run it grows tiring to have to spend twenty minutes negotiating
every time you go in a shop.

------
yan
The book mentioned by Cialdini was one of my favorite reads of last year. It
just melts away and before you know it; you finished it.

~~~
joshwa
By the end, have you bought 3 more books, the training tapes, and a lifetime
subscription to his newsletter?

~~~
hugh
I read the same book. It was compulsory for a management class I was doing.

A lot of people rave about how great it is, but personally I couldn't quite
overcome the niggling voice of shame in the back of my head that said "You're
reading a self-help book".

I felt dirty afterwards, and I stored the book in a drawer rather than on my
bookshelf. It's probably not really a bad book, though.

~~~
shard
Why feel shame at reading a book which improves your skills? Would you feel
shame after reading a startup self-help book such as "Getting Real"?

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
I think it's a techie thing. I took a course at work about influence and
negotiation and the reaction of some people I was talking to (a few
scientists) was "oh, you're taking that class on manipulating people!"
complete with rolled eyeballs. Actually of all the classes I've taken at work,
that was one of the most useful.

~~~
shard
The answer to that is obviously: Yes, I prefer to know when and how I'm being
manipulated, rather than walk around being blind to my strings being pulled.

I've come across the same reaction amongst my techie friends as well. I don't
understand why so many smart people have such a big blindspot about this
issue.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Sigh! There is a huge difference between manipulating someone and negotiating
to get what you want. The first implies control, generally without their
consent. The latter is all about understanding their needs (which are often
emotional and may require asking probing questions, reading body language,
making that person comfortable etc) and finding out how you can come to a
consensus that satisfies both parties.

The problem I was alluding to is that technical people seem to think that
using anything other than cold, hard facts to come to terms is "manipulative."
And quite simply, the world doesn't work that way.

[edit] Now that I re-read your reply, I think I took it completely the wrong
way :-) Sorry.

------
tstegart
The book he mentions explains why Facebook and social networking sites work as
well as they do. Have you ever wondered why Facebook never invites you to be
friends with someone, its always "Your friend thinks you might know.." Just
the tiny change from saying "You might know..." to "Your friend thinks you
might know..." makes a huge difference. I encourage anyone to read the book,
because it has huge implications for marketing and start-ups. It explains a
lot of why things work the way they do, why people like Apple, why people are
encouraged to buy, or discouraged. Its a dry read, but invaluable.

It will even tell you how to monetize Twitter... :)

------
hooande
My friend had a similar experience in india. I wonder how the same kind of
soft well approach could be applied to startups? Perhaps by making sure you
provide value for people with no pressure to buy? The methodology sure seems
to work.

~~~
chriskelley
I think application of this into a startup is all about interaction. How can a
company passionately (read: more then just newsletter drips) interact with
their users after they have signed up for the freeby but maybe aren't quite
ready to pay? Even with the "free plan with hopes of people upgrading to pay"
model so popular these days, conversion rates still seem too low to me. Users
sign up for the freeby but then instead of diving into an engaged relationship
with the company, too often those users are "off the hook" from courting...
they have already shown interest, now wow them into converting.

Reciprocation is covered with the company providing the free trial or the free
shipping. In startups, "Social proof", "Liking", "Authority", and "Scarcity"
are all more-or-less defined by the userbase and market the company is in.
That leaves us with "Commitment and consistency" as the magical 'weapon of
influence'. So what is that exactly? I think it comes back to providing your
users with an excellent product, excellent service, and make them feel like
they are part of the family. From a different model, I think Zappos does an
excellent job of this. To loyal Zappos customers, using the service is a no-
brainer - at every turn the company makes users feel catered to, and in turn
the users will continue to shop and feel confident that the relationship will
work like it always has in the past.

------
cbetz
You really have to visit one of these places to understand the whole setup.
They most certainly will try to rip you off and will use every trick in the
book to do so.

My favorite is this one: You pick a cheapish looking rug and they tell you you
have "champagne tastes" and say it is very expensive (even though it is worth
nowhere NEAR the price they ask). I remember my uncle replied to these men
with, "No... I think I just have beer tastes".

That being said I _highly_ recommend visiting the country as it is beautiful
and just loaded with history going back to Roman times.

------
iamelgringo
Good sales people are worth their weight in gold. I've thought about taking a
course in sales, just for the social engineering skills that can be picked up.

------
ahizzle
Great article. I wonder if rug merchants will have to adapt now that their
tactics are getting wider exposure?

~~~
orib
Why would they? It's not about what's new, it's about what's effective. And
these tactics have been effective for thousands of years. Of course, they're
more effective with tourists who haven't been exposed to this sort of
bargaining before, and have been trained to smile, nod, and pay whenever
someone tells them a price. Still, this sort of salesmanship is -- and will
always be -- effective. Why? Because it's personal, and it's relatively
enjoyable for both parties if done properly.

In fact, it's only fairly recently that this sort of haggling has stopped
being the way you did all your shopping (at least in the Western world.)
Probably until the late 1900s, you walked into a store and expected to haggle
with the owner over the price of the items that you bought.

~~~
ahizzle
Yes, but for thousands of years there hasn't been an Internet with bloggers
detailing this sort of thing for the rest of the world. :)

I was commenting less on the haggling aspect and more on the team-based
shill/forced-reciprocity system.

~~~
Chocobean
Knowing what it is when you see it does not make you immune to social
engineering. The author knew right away what they were doing, but it still
worked.

------
coglethorpe
Very similar to: [http://onstartups.com/home/tabid/3339/bid/1415/5-Startup-
Sal...](http://onstartups.com/home/tabid/3339/bid/1415/5-Startup-Sales-Tips-
From-Turkish-Rug-Dealers.aspx)

------
zzzmarcus
Along the same lines, I've found www.changingminds.org to be the mother of all
sites for techniques on convincing people to do what you want them to do.

------
Eliezer
I own three copies of Cialdini's Influence, one for myself and two to loan
out.

------
signa11
reminds me of dr seuss's "green eggs and ham"...

------
shiranaihito
Somehow the story sounds fake..

Would Turkish people really know English that well? Would they be able to
communicate like that?

------
prakash
sigh! why the upvotes? How is this HN worthy?

~~~
jamiequint
because its interesting, has to do with negotiation and the psychology of
bargaining.

~~~
prakash
actually this example in the rug essay is not a good one.

If you want to understand & use negotiation, read Shell's _"Bargaining for
Advantage"_ : <http://www.amazon.com/dp/0143036971/>

~~~
jamiequint
the negotiation in the example isn't good, but looking back on his purchase in
retrospect he admits that and identifies the reasons he ended up purchasing
the rug.

on a side note, "Getting to Yes" is also another good book on negotiation.

