
Ask HN: Is there a better employment route to high earnings than FAANG? - japanaway
I’m a 20something software engineer on a year sabbatical from a FAANG company and thinking about my employment options. My earnings are relatively high I think (at senior now, ~350k total comp with bonuses and auto-sell RSUs). However, the idea that I’ve already reached the max expected value for the effort I’m willing to expend as an employee in the industry is a little dreary to me (note: I am very lucky and also feel bad about saying that).<p>Does anyone know of a route to equivalent earnings outside of FAANG? Assuming that I am willing to live anywhere and work on any type of software, but do not want to go into management or start a company.<p>edit: thank you for the responses
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jonahbenton
Not on a salaried basis.

One path is to migrate your thinking from the terms of labor and income to
terms of capital and asset development and accumulation. In software this
usually means starting a business (eg SAAS) which becomes an asset by
establishing a reliable income stream from a customer base. That income stream
asset can be sold, yielding a net capital accumulation of more than 300k per
year for the time that was put into it.

This is of course extremely difficult to do, with a very high (99.9+%) failure
rate, and success is almost always more dependent on non-technical skill
factors.

I would advise instead seeking the path of gratitude, finding the capacity to
more deeply appreciate your incredible good fortune, and address your psychic
discomfort in the value of your labor by performing work that tangibly helps
others less fortunate than you.

Good luck to you.

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throwlaplace
It feels dreary because you feel you have nothing left to strive for because
you're only measuring your progress by your salary. Find another way to feel
accomplished. 350k total comp is enormous and I don't know how you could
expect to be even that valuable let alone more valuable to an enterprise
(unless you're exceptional, in which case you would not be asking this
question).

BTW I'm not judging you. I'm just saying I don't know why you would expect
that that is not indeed your top earning potential given your skillset.

~~~
kod
> I don't know how you could expect to be even that valuable

I've had roles where I changed ~5 lines of code that resulted in at least my
yearly salary worth of reduced operating costs. Programming can be a high-
leverage activity, FAANG salaries aren't necessarily irrational.

~~~
sorokod
Is it possible that those ~5 lines of code where introduced by your
predecessor who had a similar salary?

~~~
kod
No, they were introduced by the founder, and were getting the job done, just
not anywhere near as efficiently.

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deanmoriarty
You can go significantly higher than this, for example:

\- From your comp I assume you are a L5 at FAANG. Getting to L6 is challenging
but not impossible and would put you in the solid ~500k range. From there, you
could push into L7+, which would get you close to ~800k+, but that is more
rare and reserved for truly brilliant and lucky folks. L6 is definitely
achievable though.

\- Join a unicorn on a good growth trajectory, enter with a standard ~300k
offer, and hope in a couple years you'd get to ~1M thanks to equity
appreciation. I know several friends who entered into the right unicorn at the
right time and made ~1M+ per year just by doing senior SWE work. It's riskier
than the above option, but much less riskier and with better odds than joining
an early stage startup, which I wouldn't recommend at all. The key is, when
you are interviewing don't ask about what technology or text editor they use,
ask to see their growth rate data and make sure you join an already-exploding
rocket ship, backed by real numbers. I think there are some good arbitrage
opportunities for candidates looking to join a unicorn.

Finally, don't squander your cash flow, live frugally, save aggressively and
invest.

I am at a slightly higher but pretty similar compensation, and the game has
become growing my investment portfolio. Just this year, my portfolio itself
has returned well above 200k, which is the amount that I usually save from my
paycheck every year, so I literally had an employee (more senior than me!)
working for me this year and making me money :-)

Once (if!) I get to ~4M, I'll quit and chill for a couple years around the
world. I'm halfway there.

~~~
enjoy_the_life
That's a great return on your portfolio. Can you tell us more about how do you
invest? Have you hired some fund managers or invest by yourself? What are your
suggestions for investing aggressively as the '20s something FANG employee
starting at L3?

~~~
deanmoriarty
All by myself, my portfolio is a standard combination of VTI, VXUS, BND. It
won't always be as good as this year (yearly return ~15%), but achieving an
IRR of ~8% throughout my life would be amazing.

------
jboggan
You are pretty much at the peak of income for your current amount of effort
and risk for any role in the global economy. There are higher paying positions
but you'll have to risk a lot and work a lot harder.

How much of a life do you have outside of work? What would you spend your time
doing if you were independently wealthy? Do you have a family? You are
honestly at an income level where you can do nearly anything you want, maybe
take some time and figure out what that is.

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floatrock
Money is great at measuring things measured in money. If you want more of it,
go searching where people measure everything in money: finance.

But given that you're taking a sabbatical and there's slight undertones of an
existential/"bullshit jobs" crisis here, perhaps investigate wealth that isn't
measured in money. Have you spent time with a really good friend lately? Your
family? Have you taken some time to pursue your (non-FAANG-tech) intellectual
interests? Or maybe just take some time to disconnect and grow a garden? How's
your spiritual energy, be it recharged by God, gods, crystals, or just staring
into fractals?

Sounds like you're doing pretty well for yourself. Are you really searching
for better employment, or better something else?

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anthonyoconnor
Outside of a FAANG I doubt it. Maybe something stock trading related.
Considering the income for most software engineers is very far from 350K even
if that is the limit for how much you can make you are still doing a lot
better than most ever will.

Just for reference here in Canada the average income for sofware developers is
around 70k CAD which is maybe 55k USD.

What is it in particular that you find 'dreary' to think you have maxed out
your earning potential doing the same type of job you are doing now? Do you
enjoy doing what you are doing?

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frogperson
I would tough it out for a few years. Put $2mm in S&P, then plan on a
withdrawal rate of 3.5% a year. That would give you a very safe practically
permanent salary of $70k which goes a long way in the Midwest or over seas.

~~~
marktangotango
Define "few years". If we put some numbers and suppose after taxes and not
living in their car or on the street, OP is able to save $150k a year. That
would take just over 13 years to accumulate the $2M. A bit less if 7% annual
total market returns continue. $70k is a modest investment income, definitely
won't provide the lifestyle OP was enjoying during the accumulation phase.

The games rigged; even a top earner like OP can't break into the lowest
echelons of wealth and lifestyle by working for a living.

~~~
halfjoking
Yes - and $2 million is still a long way from the $10 million needed if you
want to be a part of the 1%. Even if you're a top performer in the rat-race,
you're still a rat.

The only way to be free is to setup something that will cause an exponential
growth in wealth. Usually that means starting a business, accumulating assets
and then getting acquired.

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kdme
You could start buying income producing assets.

You could buy real estate and rent it out.

You could also buy an existing profitable business from a motivated seller
(owner is wants to retire or tired of the business). Then you use your tech
skills to add value to the business. This is potentially less risky than
starting one from scratch but you got to pick a good deal.

Also how are your finances? Credit Score? Any bad dept? do you have an
emergency fund? Are you living paycheck to paycheck? If you are planning to do
this you should definitely get your finances in order. You cant focus on
making more money on a sinking ship.

You are earning a lot than most people. It's completely in your reach to
become a multi millionaire if you make the right financial decisions. Go for
it and strive for financial independence.

Also how are your expenses? If you are living in silicon valley I imagine that
the bills there getting a large chuck of your income plus the taxes in
California.

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nextos
Probably not, but honestly I'd try helping with an early startup that is
trying to solve problems that truly matter e.g. immunotherapies. You may be
rewarded well in case the company grows and you are an early employee. And it
will bring a lot of satisfaction. Maybe you can do this during a FAANG
sabatical, to hedge your options.

~~~
jobseeker990
Where do you find start ups like that?

~~~
nextos
In biotech hubs. I guess mainly SF, Boston, Oxbridge and Switzerland. But also
other places. Biotech is a bit less concentrated.

I'm planning to start up my own one almost immediately.

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0xdead
You have a problem that you will never be able to resolve, even if you are
making $1m per year. Learn to be satisfied with what you have.

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bogdanu
Sheesh, I'm making 18k$ a year after taxes, after 6 years at the current
company. Basically, you'ved earned in one year what I would earn in half of my
career.

~~~
sumedh
18k$ a year which means you are not working in the US or some other developed
country so I am not sure what is the point of that comparison.

~~~
cm2012
You know the median American makes $30k per year? Bottom 25% of Americans make
under $18k per year.

These numbers are pretty similar in NYC as compared to the country as a whole,
too.

~~~
sumedh
Shouldn't you be looking at the median for software devs?

~~~
throw03172019
The $18k salary was never specified to be an engineer salary. There are a wide
range of users on this site.

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codingslave
Finance pays more, is also more competitive.

~~~
japanaway
Software engineering in finance, you mean? How specialized is this?

~~~
maest
It's a big field - I'd say buyside algo funds pay best in the space; I expect
you'd be able to increase your income if you find the right fund and the right
position.

As everywhere else, the closer you are to the profit centres, the more you get
paid: e.g. exchange connectivity specialist at an HFT shop, devops maintaining
the plumbing and infra for ML systems, data wrangling specialist etc. Also,
some funds are notorious for having made weird decisions regarding their main
programming language (e.g. ocaml or q/kdb), so being a language specialist can
also prove lucrative.

You can also look to join a trading team inside a fund - the ceiing is much
higher on what you can be paid, but it's a lot riskier too. Generally, working
on the infra side of a highly sophisticated algo fund is less risky.

~~~
anonu
> the closer you are to the profit centres, the more you get paid

Yes, this. I would go further and say that if you're "IT" in a finance firm
you're a second class citizen. You want to do engineering in a trading role:
designing prop trading strategies, managing portfolios and pnl.

There are very few financial firms that are tech companies at the core. The
landscape today is certainly better than it was ten or twenty years ago.
Today, the firms who have a standing chance to compete in the arena have
automated everything.

I'm making sweeping generalizations, so obviously YMMV.

~~~
codingslave
This is outdated. Top non quant funds still pay their programmers 400 - 700k.
Places like bridgewater, pimco, etc.

~~~
maest
Yes, but the harsh truth is, you are still a 'second class citizen', even if a
well paid one.

It's really a matter of culture; virtually all places will have a clear
delineation between Investment and Technology, with various perks given to
Investment people: better visibility into what is going on, access to higher
management, general power to influence which projects need work etc. Also,
Investment people tend to hang out together.

EDIT: Just realised you were maybe not commenting on the 'second class
citizen' bit. I'll leave my comment here anyway.

~~~
codingslave
So what, if youre paying me 600k a year to write code, I'll accept some abuse.
Its why they pay so much

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aicioara
Assuming that financial growth is your main motivation, here are few more
examples:

\- Change industries - move into finance, look for small proprietary trading
shops. Depending on your skill level, this may (or may not) yield better total
compensation levels

\- Lower your taxes (may not be possible if you are from the US, but I did not
make any assumptions). You can do so by changing countries, changing legal
entities

\- Lower your cost of living through remote work and geoarbitrage. 350k in NYC
may buy you the same life as 200k in West Chicago. Bonus points if you can
remote from Asia or South America. Morphing into this arrangement from an on-
premises job is easier than looking for remote work right away

\- Diversify active income streams - 2 part time jobs might give a better
yield than 1 full time. Make sure there is no conflict of interests

All of these will eventually plateau, together with your development skills.
At that point, the only way to grow is to diversify into skills that scale
better (go into management, go into consulting, start companies, teach
courses).

Hope this helps.

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jamil7
I think this thread gives you some great answers. I'd only add to think about
exactly what you want from that extra money since there are ways to optimise
your life for enjoyment without it. I'm older than you and I don't earn
anything near what you do and probably never will but I work for myself, pick
my projects, tech stack and hours and generally work around 20 - 30 hours per
week. I fill the rest of my time with personal projects, hobbies, friends and
family and live in a pretty affordable place.

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doyouhavebill
If you are struggling with your bills, you could consider talking to your
financial institution or ask some fellow HNers to help.

Why exactly do you need more money?

~~~
handoff
Op doesn’t seem to have an issue with paying the bills, it looks like he wants
more to have something to look for? That’s a dangerously frustrating way of
thinking imo as you’ll never be happy or satisfied

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Sevii
There is no commonly known route. There are a lot of niche spots you could
fill, but few places where an SDE will make more as an employee.

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dwarndt
Build your own product. Start your own company. Take it public or sell it.
That's really the only way to make significantly more dough than you already
are. It carries risk - but at your age, with the money you've been earning,
you should be able to weather a storm or two. Good luck!

~~~
dwarndt
PS: Just saw you do not want to "start your own company". Building product and
selling it doesn't necessarily require starting a "company' per se (in the
traditional sense). If you're a creative software developer, and you're young,
taking some risk to create a product will motivate you - and can end up making
a lot of $dough$-re-mi. ;-)

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aboodman
If you are very good (top 1% of employees), the max comp even for individual
contributors is far higher than 350k/yr.

It's not uncommon for senior staff engineers to be making 1M/yr all-in. But
this is for people leading important efforts, who it would be considered
damaging to lose.

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itsmhuang
I'm probably pointing out the obvious, but if you're not able to find higher
earnings, there's always trying to achieve goals and find fulfillment in other
parts of your life, e.g. home improvement, investing, family, etc.

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t34543
Yes. My income is comparable and I work at a private company. Full cash comp.
Salaries are generally high but I took a few risks and my earnings have
compounded based on that. I’m currently a IC but on track for leadership.

A lot of it is politics.

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rscho
Learn APL well. Apply to jobs in finance or heavy industry. That's second-hand
advice, but apparently those guys can pretty much set their price.

~~~
non-entity
Wait are finance companies actually using real APL? Like not J or some
derivative, but actual, mathematical symbols APL?

~~~
rscho
Dyalog APL

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probinso
Request 'vacation raise' instead of pay

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GoForthAssemble
I call BS. FAANG fantasy porn.

~~~
notfaang
I'm not at a FAANG and am doing $340k in south bay, all cash, before things
like medical / 401k. I'd say the salary is realistic. Throwaway account, don't
want anyone to know how much I make.

These comp values are not an illusion, but you have to be good at what you do
I guess, and show the company you're worth that much.

I do not have a college degree, btw.

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brailsafe
What do you do and why are you sufficiently good at it?

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notquitefaang
You don't need to be good, you just need to be at one of the high paying
companies. FAANG and some startups will pay these salaries across the board.
Some lesser paying companies will compete on occasion but generally there's a
big gap between top paying and not.

~~~
notfaang
I have not found a startup that would be willing to pay that much plus equity,
or even paying that without it.

I would be okay taking a ~40% cut with good equity if I felt the startup /
team was extremely solid. I have a friend who did that who made the same as I
did. My friend does not regret the decision as the company is doing very well.

(I did not consider joining because of location - north bay vs south.)

