
Harmony Link will no longer work after March 2018 - yanowitz
https://community.logitech.com/s/question/0D55A0000745EkC/harmony-link-eos-or-eol?s1oid=00Di0000000j2Ck&OpenCommentForEdit=1&s1nid=0DB31000000Go9U&emkind=chatterCommentNotification&s1uid=0055A0000092Uwu&emtm=1510088039436&fromEmail=1&s1ext=0
======
acidburnNSA
Well if this isn't the most validating and ringing endorsement of privately-
hosted, open source home automation stuff like Home Assistant [1], I don't
know what is. I rigged it with $2 of infrared LED transmitters and receivers
hooked to my raspberry pi and automated my TV, stereo, and air conditioner
[2]. I am so glad I did this now. I think there is big business, on the order
of a full-on electrician, in going around and setting up Home Assistant, some
zwave stuff, some IR stuff, etc. in people's homes.

[1] [https://home-assistant.io/](https://home-assistant.io/), very recently
discussed on HN:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15521743](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15521743)

[2] [https://partofthething.com/thoughts/adding-a-ir-send-and-
rec...](https://partofthething.com/thoughts/adding-a-ir-send-and-receive-
capabilities-to-my-home-assistant-based-smart-home/)

~~~
Waterluvian
That's great and I hope there's a fantastic open source community for home
automation, especially as I'm getting into it myself this season. But I would
wager 99% of home automation consumers won't, don't, or can't do DIY software
solutions. So I'm not sure this bonehead move by Logitech really validates the
DIY solution, as I don't see one covering the others' market.

~~~
_pmf_
> But I would wager 99% of home automation consumers won't, don't, or can't do
> DIY software solutions.

It's more about hardware. Good luck getting your fire insurance cover damages
when your Alibaba sourced board that you operate on the mains (via Alibaba
source AC/DC converter) fries your living room.

The issues with DIY here are not hard issues in themselves (grounding, heat
protection/ventilation), but they require a custom casing solution which is
kind of hard if you don't want to end up with weird looking industrial cases
on your wall and ceiling.

~~~
dmm
You can build a system that simply controls commercially sourced, UL listed,
mains equipment. That top level comment mentioned using IR but you can also
control cheap 433Mhz outlets with simple transmitters and a library like rc-
switch for arduino[0].

Home assistant also integrates well with openzwave so you can use most zwave
devices including a variety of switches.

[0] [https://github.com/sui77/rc-switch](https://github.com/sui77/rc-switch)

~~~
emilburzo
Yep, that's exactly how I automate a room fan to turn on over the winter, when
the humidity is too high.

A respectable 433MHz controlled plug, an arduino, 433MHz TX and a humidity
sensor.

------
josteink
This is one reason I don't want to buy into a single IoT thing which depends
on a cloud-component in order to work.

Because those are not things you buy to own. Those are things you rent and
which only keep working as long the owner is willing to keep them running.

~~~
janesvilleseo
I have come the same conclusion after the YouTube app on my smart tv of 4
years old was bricked. I still don’t know the best way to avoid this issue
going forward (chromecast, roku, other).

~~~
fredley
My approach is to compartmentalise functionality. I have a dumb screen with a
Chromecast plugged into it. The screen is the much more expensive part of this
setup, but should last for a long time. It supports inputs which will almost
certainly be usable, perhaps with dongles towards the end of its service, for
at least a decade, if past tech is anything to go by.

The Chromecast could be discontinued tomorrow, but it only cost £30, so I'll
just replace it with whatever. Relying on your expensive TV's probably
terrible and badly supported software is madness, but it's what most people
seem happy to do. It's getting harder and harder to buy TVs that are not
smart, and I find it maddening.

I take the same approach with Speakers.

~~~
emodendroket
Non-smart TVs are mostly inferior panels now, as I understand it.

~~~
logfromblammo
It may be about time to buy only dumb monitors, and buy the television tuner
portion as a separate box, if you even still need one.

Of all the television sets I have owned since 1985, the native tuner included
inside the device has been used maybe 2% of the time. The only advantage I
have ever seen from buying a display screen as a television set is that it
comes with speakers loud enough to hear from across a large room, and has as
many as six different input ports. None of the screens I now own currently
decode their own NTSC/ATSC/QAM signals.

My first "smart" TV was also my last, because LG made it obsolete within
months of me buying it. Now it also functions only as a dumb screen, and is
not allowed on my home network. Never again.

You don't need a smart television now. You don't even need a television. You
need a monitor with HDMI inputs and speakers.

~~~
dreamcompiler
I went down this path a few years ago. You're right, but monitors of size X
tend to be much more expensive than TVs of size X. At least they did a few
years ago.

~~~
emodendroket
Monitors are less expensive at small sizes, I think. But otherwise I would
agree.

~~~
logfromblammo
And at this point, I would be willing to pay slightly more to _not_ pack stuff
into the case that I don't want, which may negatively impact the features that
I _do_ want.

And if you want a DisplayPort input in lieu of one of the HDMI sockets, that
seems to add at least $30 to an otherwise identical monitor, even though
DisplayPort is royalty-free. There does seem to be an attempt to segment the
market to charge more for displays connected to a computer than for displays
connected to a home entertainment appliance.

At larger sizes, I think the assumption is that if you don't have a TV tuner,
you're attaching it to a computer, and if you do, you're not. And that breaks
down at smaller sizes, where resolution and pixel pitch become an issue for
computing, but less so for consoles and DVD players.

------
atsushin
I don't understand this. So just because Logitech doesn't see it as feasible
to renew a technology certificate with some company, they have to step on
their consumers who've already spent their money on Logitech's product?

That's just horrid, and a bad look (and bad consumer relations). I might he
stating the obvious, but if a company is going to temporarily license a
technology and then develop a product for consumer markets they would do well
to continually renew their certs. To do otherwise and act how they did seeds
doubt: are we simply buying into a temporarily functioning product that can
cease functioning at any time at the whim of the manufacturer? If so why are
we buying from them at all if the product we get isn't truly ours?

~~~
sbarre
> are we simply buying into a temporarily functioning product that can cease
> functioning at any time at the whim of the manufacturer?

This happens a lot. I own several software/hardware products that no longer
function because the ecosystem moved on and the company stopped updating the
software (either for business reasons or because they simply went out of
business)..

The hardware itself is totally fine, I just can't use it anymore because the
closed-sourced software is not available or not compatible with my operating
system(s).

And it is a bad look for sure. I'm definitely not buying any products from any
of those companies anymore.. The ones that still exist at least.

~~~
jl6
Happened to me with a Samsung “Smart” TV which used to have Skype on it, but
Samsung removed that app for no reason that benefitted me.

And I have a perfectly functional Epson printer/scanner whose only drivers no
longer work on Windows 10.

I could go on and on. That’s just what came to mind with 5 seconds thinking
about it.

~~~
smnrchrds
> Samsung removed that app for no reason that benefited me

I think it was Microsoft who decided to stop supporting Skype for TV, not
Samsung [1]. Did you find a replacement? Perhaps a third-party device that
could be connected to TV? I am in the marker for a living room Skype system
and I can't find anything suitable.

[1] [https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/8/11178976/microsoft-
skype-f...](https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/8/11178976/microsoft-skype-for-tv-
support)

------
shalmanese
Logitech Forums censors "class action lawsuit" as a swear word!

~~~
nfriedly
What about "clbutt action lawsuit"? :P

~~~
OJFord
If have thought 'clarse action' would've been the more obvious substitution.
;)

~~~
nfriedly
Yea, that one is definitely more readable - mine was a play on "The Clbuttic
Mistake" \- [http://thedailywtf.com/articles/The-Clbuttic-
Mistake-](http://thedailywtf.com/articles/The-Clbuttic-Mistake-)

------
edwhitesell
Seems like it's only the Logitech Link product, not all Harmony remotes.

I've been buying used/refurbished 880 remotes online for the last few years. I
still think it's the best IR remote ever made.

~~~
gregmac
I have a Logitech Harmony Hub with simple remote, and I would say the radio
control (non line of sight) between remote and hub is great. The hub has the
ir transmitters in it, and it's sitting inside a cabinet with everything else,
and there's an external ir blaster that sits just above to control the tv.

Mine controls tv, Nvidia Shield, Logitech z5500 speakers, and a Blu-ray
player. I believe the Shield is controlled by Bluetooth.

Because the Shield is a Google cast receiver, I can press the music button and
it leaves the tv off but allows us to cast music (or just play something from
the shield with sound only). Everything else is as straight forward as you'd
expect, one litmus test is that visitors are able to figure it out easily. I
used to have one of the remotes with an lcd screen and I'm not sure it was as
straight forward, partly because the remote was so intimidating.

~~~
joshstrange
Harmony Hub w/ simple remote is the best universal remote out there hands
down. I can stand in the kitchen, leave my remote in my pocket while cooking,
and just reach in and blindly adjust things like volume, play/pause, FF/RR,
all without looking at the remote or taking it out of my pocket. After dealing
with a logitech with a screen on it for years this was an amazing change. Also
the battery last for like forever.

~~~
rhino369
I also added an amazon echo to my harmony hub, and I can use some voice
commands (turn tv on/off, pause play, volume). It's a pretty good set up.

------
crusso
One pleasant surprise that I had with my new receiver that I hadn't realized:
Modern HDMI has a control bus that will replicate commands like powering on,
changing channels, changing volumes, etc. along the bus and other compliant
components will play along.

That means that with my receiver and TV, my Xfinity remote is able to control
everything I need it to in my entertainment center.

I was getting kind of bummed about the sad state of Logitech Harmony remotes
as my old one was failing on me - but it turns out that it no longer matters.

~~~
tallanvor
Which can be a pain in the rear. I was having a problem with my TV turning on
randomly. It turned out that when my Amazon fire was waking up (no clue why it
needed to), my TV registered the signal and turned on automatically.

Luckily you can disable the CEC stuff on the TV, which solved the problem.

~~~
laumars
Some TVs you can disable the power on feature specifically without disabling
CEC completely. I have the option to do so on both my Samsung TVs and my LG
one too.

------
wjnc
If in Europe: please contact your local consumers organisation or legal
assistance insurance and go get your rights! We need case law to go all the
way up, even on the smaller losses usually involved in consument product
conflicts.

Irregardless of small print, if it's not clear from the outset there is some
part of 'lease' (of certificates) involved it seems pretty straightforward to
annul your agreement of purchase once the product stops working within the
period you could normally have expected it to function correctly. (Even if it
is clear from the outset, the day my Philips Netflix-integrated TV With
Netflix Button (R) stops showing Netflix, I'm going for it.)

The nice thing about annulment is 100% money back. The less nice thing about
anulment is that it is the store that has to pay you back, not the companing
producing the product. They need to sort out liability among themselves. It's
producers thinking this is acceptable behaviour that starts it. The retailer
is only the middle man.

------
uptown
Logitech has a bad track record when it comes to hardware that requires
ongoing services. I was a Logitech Alert customer, and had nothing but
problems with both the hardware and the software. Their power line adapters
would take down my entire network. And the software was buggy to the point
that it was unusable.

They've abandoned the line of products and a class action lawsuit is in
process.

~~~
crankylinuxuser
In reality, they all do. This isn't just a logitech issue.

Remember that Microsoft couldn't even keep up their DRM servers for their
Zune. I would think out of any technology company, MS would be the __last __to
drop support for infrastructure.

It's just safer to consider any "cloud required" device to be a rental. Now,
its up to the user if that rental is a good deal or not. Sometimes it can be
(chromecast). Other times, it isn't.

~~~
j45
Bingo on cloud required. Devices should be able to work cloud free (stand
alone) or cloud enabled.

Maybe PWA's can become the default offline first configuration web interfaces
of devices, and sync while the cloud is still available.

------
gargravarr
Brand loyalty is not rewarded. I will never buy into IoT exactly because of
d*ck moves likes this. I also love how they inform the owners 'sorry we're
killing your device, but you're entitled to a discount to buy a replacement
from us'. Nicely absent is the reassurance they won't pull exactly this stunt
again with the replacement hardware!

Also: short paragraph: bad news, device being killed. Longer paragraph: sales
pitch...

I'll probably keep buying Logitech peripherals because they are very good
quality, but the moment they make a cloud-dependent mouse, I'm out.

------
Mister_Snuggles
I found a review of the Harmony Link because I have no idea what, exactly, it
is. From what I can tell it's basically an IR blaster that can be controlled
via an iPad/iPhone/Android app. There are some value-add features, like access
to local TV listings from the app. It sounds like there were limitations, such
as not being able to actually schedule recordings from it - in fairness, the
review I found was from 2011 and firmware/app updates may have changed this.

But at it's core, the device is an IR blaster accessible over some sort of
network interface. It makes no sense that this would NEED some kind of cloud
service for regular operation. I can, however, see two pieces that greatly
benefit from a cloud service:

1) Initial setup. There are constantly new TVs, DVD players, cable boxes, etc
with their different IR codes and quirks. The cloud service would be a good
way to house this database so that it can be continuously updated without
needing to push a firmware and/or app update. Each firmware/app update could
include a base set of IR codes, or all codes as of the time the update was
built, so that you can get base functionality without needing the service.
Once you've picked a set of devices it can download the codes once and not
require continuous access.

2) TV listings. This seems to be one of the value-added features with the
Harmony and there's no realistic way to bake this into the app or firmware.
This needs to be a cloud service.

Sure, maybe the TV listings will go away, I get that. I even get that they may
want to discontinue the product and no longer support the app. But that's no
reason to brick a bunch of devices - just say to people "This is no longer
supported, the app may stop working with future OS updates, and the TV
listings are going to go away."

Ideally they'd also say "Here's our internal API guide that the hardware guys
gave to the software guys, enjoy". And in a perfect world, "Here's the github
link to our firmware source code that we just released under a BSD license,
enjoy."

------
sstorie
Umm, is this actually happening though? Teh linked forum post is just
speculation and then a bunch of people freaking out...

~~~
y7
According to a Reddit user [1] they sent the following email to all device
owners:

\---

Dear [...],

This is an important update regarding your Harmony Link. On March 16, 2018,
Logitech will discontinue service and support for Harmony Link. Your Harmony
Link will no longer function after this date.

Although your Harmony Link is no longer under warranty, we are offering you a
35% discount on a new Harmony Hub. Harmony Hub offers app-based remote control
features similar to Harmony Link, but with the added benefit of the ability to
control many popular connected home devices. To receive your discounted
Harmony Hub, go to logitech.com, add Harmony Hub to your cart, and use your
personal one-time promotional code [...] during checkout.

Thank you for being a Logitech customer and we hope you will take advantage of
this offer to upgrade to a new Harmony Hub.If you have any questions or
concerns about Harmony Link, please email the Harmony customer care team.

Regards,

Logitech Harmony Team

\---

1:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/7bg8gi/logitech...](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/7bg8gi/logitech_is_killing_all_logitech_harmony_link/dpi31yu/)

~~~
apple4ever
Damn.

That's a shitty way to do it. The better way would be to give them a two year
notice, with the discount. By the end, most people would probably have
upgraded.

~~~
danesparza
"By the end, most people would probably have upgraded.".

Or switched to a different product. IoT products shouldn't depend on the cloud
-- or they should explicitly indicate a certain number of years of support
based on the purchase date (so the customer knows what they're signing up for)

------
j45
This raises a good point of why connecting gear to the cloud that doesn't need
to be comes to bite ya.

Ongoing cloud costs for eol products will kill old products quicker.. That
shouldn't be connected to, or rely on the cloud.

I own harmony hubs and will have to figure out how to leave.

EDIT: I'll look for products that are hybrid-cloud enabled - ones that offer
locally stored and run backends (perhaps an offline-first progressive web apps
as control panels that can sync to a cloud API if it exists).

~~~
vidarh
Yes, my reaction too is that it means I can't trust my Harmony Hub won't get
similarly ditched, so I'll be looking for non-Logitech alternatives. Even if
it ends up never being affected by the same, they've ensured I don't trust
them any more.

------
t0mbstone
"But remember that this thing came out in 2011, and since then it has been
replaced by the $100 Harmony Hub. The Hub, which has the same features plus
new ones focused on the smart home, is what Logitech is offering to Link
owners as consolation. Anyone with a Link that’s still under warranty can
upgrade to the Hub for free. If your Link is outside that one-year
manufacturer’s warranty, you can get 35 percent off when buying a Hub from
Logitech’s store."

So Logitech is going to scrap an ancient piece of hardware that relies on
expensive cloud infrastructure and they are willing to give people a newer
version that does all of the same things (and more) for free, and people are
complaining?

If you don't want companies to do this with cloud based hardware, you will
have to be prepared to pay subscription fees to cover ongoing cloud
infrastructure costs. The profits from the sale of the device don't stretch to
infinity. It's just basic economics.

The other option (if you don't want cloud based infrastructure) is that you
could run your own home server, but then you are going to have to worry about
24/7 connectivity, SSL, firewalls, mobile push nightmares, and all that.

------
peterwwillis
This review from 2011 shows how the Harmony Link works, and that it requires a
MyHarmony.com account to set up a device, and to control it from an iPhone:
[https://www.engadget.com/2011/10/11/logitech-harmony-link-
re...](https://www.engadget.com/2011/10/11/logitech-harmony-link-review/)

You don't buy a product which solely depends upon a free online hosted service
and then bitch after 7 years of using it for free. Yes, it would be _nice_ if
Logitech released its server-side code so people could host the service
themselves, but that would require a firmware update too as MyHarmony.com is
almost certainly hard-coded in the device.

Personally, I learned this lesson in 2002 when the Dreamcast's online services
were terminated after only a year. It's too bad other people didn't seem to
notice the parallels in 2011. But the suggestions of "class action lawsuit" is
just stupid. You can't sue a corporation into running a free service for you
that it never guaranteed in the first place.

------
frik
Logitech is one of these hardware companies that don't care anymore about
their customers, the other is Microsoft. I would like to buy new Logitech
mouse and keyboard, yet the discontinued the very popular (and best) Logitech
MX500/518 and G400 series. The best form factor, the best sturdy robust
mechanics, yet the discontinued those series. And they focus now on expensive
shitty new designs that no one needs. The same dysfunctional customer
experience is with Microsoft hardware, all the great mouse (Intelli series,
6000 series) and keyboard (cable based, robust, traditional key arrangement)
products, all discontinued. So I had to locate new unused hardware produced by
MS & Logitech many years ago from all over the world, just to have some backup
hardware. And no I don't want your crappy new hardware that will make my hands
hurt.

~~~
jcadam
Fortunately there are a lot of good options for mechanical keyboards from
smaller vendors. I haven't been able to find a decent trackball (I miss the
old corded thumb trackball Logitech used to make), though :(

~~~
LloydBraun
Logitech just released a new trackball mouse, I believe it's called the
Logitech Ergo. It's very nice. I recently swore off buying Logitech products
because of bluetooth connectivity issues, but I still bought it because it
seems to be a lot easier on my hand (right hand only I believe).

------
dantle
It's not too difficult to build your own IR blaster that is controlled by an
app. I wrote an Arduino library that lets you send device-specific IR commands
based on a generic LIRC configuration file. I run it on an Arduino101 and send
commands to it via Bluetooth LE. Currently using it with a Windows service for
climate control in my rental apartment.[1]

I could share more source code if anybody is interested in doing the same
thing.

[1] [https://github.com/dantler/infrared-remote-
sketch](https://github.com/dantler/infrared-remote-sketch)

------
tyingq
Hopefully the FTC will take notice of this one.

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
And do what? Logitech hasn't established a specific duty (inc. contract) to
keep their devices online for any length of time. So therefore the only test
might be "reasonable expectation" which is a pretty low bar.

The FTC are likely pretty powerless in this situation. Only negative PR and
taking your business elsewhere may assist here but given the lack of
competition in this space, good luck!

~~~
tyingq
They shamed Google/Nest into full refunds for bricked Revolv iot hubs. This
situation seems similar.

[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/15/ftc_lets_nest_off_h...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/15/ftc_lets_nest_off_hook_over_revolv/)

------
runamok
I had a harmony link that literally never worked. I complained to Logitech and
got a discount for the harmony hub. Wasn't that happy about it but overall
have been pretty pleased with Logitech products and support. And I do love my
hub now that it is integrated with Alexa, etc.

------
apocalyptic0n3
Are there any alternative servers and Hub/Link firmware out there that we can
run ourselves? A quick search isn't turning up anything. I'd rather not give
up Harmony remotes; I use my Xbox One as my main media center and the Harmony
Remotes are probably the easiest method for controlling it.

------
exelius
This is exactly why I went with SimpleControl and an IR blaster. I saw the
writing on the wall with the Harmony platform, and it really is a product that
a small team can maintain. SimpleControl is far from the only app in this
space, but their solution fit my use case best.

------
johnhenry
I think the censoring of words and phrases like "class action lawsuit" is the
big news here.

------
kevin_b_er
This will teach them the consequences of buying Logitech products when they
might depend on an online component outside the owner's control. With luck, it
will merely teach them the consequences of buying Logitech.

------
jdlyga
You can bet this will happen with all the early adopter smart home devices
like Samsung Smart Things once Amazon's and Google's hubs become the standard.

------
emodendroket
What in the hell? I can't see how anyone thought this was a better choice than
letting them go outside of a support window.

------
jaunkst
So there is no reason as to 'why' they are being bricked. They just are doing
it for the money?

------
doe88
Only related, and maybe it's because it's hard to differentiate themselves but
I always felt there was only mediocre products and companies in the space of
mouses and keyboards (other than kb with cherry mx switches). Moreover their
softwares/drivers are usually even worse than their hw.

~~~
hydrox24
As with most things, you'll only find mediocre products if you don't look very
hard. Most people would scoff at a keyboard that cost more than $50, and so
almost every store stocks keyboards that cost less than $50 and are as
mediocre as they come.

I would also encourage you to look into the broad range of keyboards and
pointing devices that exist out there. Mechanical keyboards are more than just
Cherry MX switches. In terms of pointing devices, I use a CST Trackball for
instance, and it's borderline industrial.

------
reiichiroh
they did this a year or two ago with their old security camera system and
revue set-top-box.

------
fractal618
I've always found logitech devices to feel sluggish, similar to KDE. Too much
pizazz.

------
babyfrank
I've always found logitech devices to feel sluggish, similar to KDE. Too much
pizazz.

