
The Killer Cats Are Winning - svdr
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/09/29/killer-cats-are-winning/
======
lnanek2
> This is a ridiculous point to waffle on: pet cats should no more be allowed
> to roam around at will than should pet dogs, horses, pythons, or pot-bellied
> pigs.

Actually, my Dad grew up on a mountain where, every day after school, he would
come home and gather up the pig and cows that had been let free to eat for the
day. So there's certainly use cases for letting a pig roam free and gather
some forage. By the time I was growing up we had chickens, which had to be
brought in at night to prevent predators from eating them, but otherwise could
roam the yard to eat worms and the like.

Also a horse that kept the grass in the yard short without us having to mow
it. There were goats, but they weren't allowed free mostly because they went
and ate mountain laurel and poisoned themselves.

It's kind of strange to take a working animal like a cat, bred for pest
control, and stick in a little indoor room and never let them out. Did farmers
originally lock up their barn cats in the barns? I don't think so. It's
actually a problem when they accidentally get locked up in a shed or a car or
something, because they aren't out doing their jobs.

Seems nuts to me that the author belittles letting them outside.

~~~
khalilravanna
Are you suggesting we should ignore an ecological disaster because the
perpetrators are "just doing their job"?

Citing the historical reasons for their existence doesn't really help the case
that they aren't a problem _now_ because the exact reason that it's _now_ and
not _then_. Cats may have had a purpose when they were introduced but in most
cases they don't actually serve that purpose anymore. And we can ignore that
point entirely because feral cats don't even fit the definition of animals
with a job to begin with. They aren't owned by anyone, they are just another
animal in the environment. One that happens to be an invasive species causing
extraordinary damage to the environment.

~~~
BFatts
Just stop. Stop bickering about cats being the problem. The problem is
humans... We are the problem. Their existence is due to us. Their
domestication is due to us.

~~~
smallnamespace
Certainly. So what should _humans_ do about the cats?

~~~
haimez
Get out of the way and let cats solve the problem! We're the problem, let them
solve us!

~~~
vinchuco
I love comments like this for reminding me to do something more productive
with my life.

------
shagie
And a counterpoint [http://www.npr.org/2016/04/04/473002208/facing-a-growing-
rat...](http://www.npr.org/2016/04/04/473002208/facing-a-growing-rat-problem-
a-neighborhood-sets-off-the-cat-patrol)

That example is why cats were domesticated in the first place.

Not having a healthy predator prey relationship in areas leads to public
health issues.

~~~
subtenante
> "They totally freak me out," says Courtney Bledsoe, as she sees a rat dart
> across the street while picking up her son at a Lincoln Park preschool.

And we're having rats picking up children at school, now.

~~~
noonespecial
And if they are going to pick up children, the least they could do is cross
the street carefully at the designated crosswalk rather than just darting
willy-nilly. Rats these days...

~~~
subtenante
No no no. She's not freaked at by the rats at all, but by the _kids_! That's
why she lets the rats pick them up.

------
appwiz
The Oatmeal has also exposed these cute murderous creatures:
[http://theoatmeal.com/comics/cats_actually_kill](http://theoatmeal.com/comics/cats_actually_kill)

The numbers seem to line up.

------
rwmj
It's worth reading the author's actual peer reviewed paper:
[http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380](http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380)

~~~
MiguelVieira
Summary:

> We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and
> 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets,
> cause the majority of this mortality. Our findings suggest that free-ranging
> cats cause substantially greater wildlife mortality than previously thought
> and are likely the single greatest source of anthropogenic mortality for US
> birds and mammals.

~~~
rwmj
Also note that this is _in the US_.

Other parts of the world have had wild cat populations for millions of years.

~~~
teaearlgraycold
Not domesticated cats.

The US has a few native cats, and I assume has had them for quite a while.

------
honkhonkpants
Recently a coyote killed an outdoor pet cat in Berkeley and the citizens were
outraged. The predator must be hunted down and shot as soon as possible! This
amused me of course. Pets can be predators but actual predators are "invasive"
and must be shot.

~~~
linkregister
> and the citizens were outraged

100% of Berkeley residents were so flabbergasted we spilled fair trade granola
and almond milk all over our copy of the Sunday _New York Times_ whilst
listening to NPR in our REI/Patagonia outdoorwear.

Or maybe some citizens were outraged. This Berkeley liberal monolith
stereotype gets a bit old. The chicken population in Berkeley is in the
hundreds; Berkeley residents do small-scale farming, to include slaughtering
their animals. Plenty of Berkeley residents have more perspective than the
knee-jerk reaction you describe.

~~~
honkhonkpants
The beauty of stereotypes is that they are true.

------
kafkaesq
_“Euthanasia needs to be part of a successful long-term solution.”_

But linguistic abuse does not. Make whatever recommendations about species
culling you want -- but there's no way that targeted killing can be compared
to "euthanasia."

------
jmnicolas
"but cats, their human partisans will proudly point out, cannot be tamed or
herded"

Just check CATMANTOO channel on Youtube, you will be amazed at what he makes
his cats do.

And apparently it's that hard to train a cat, he says you can do the same with
yours.

~~~
seibelj
It's amazing how a cat will learn something in 5 seconds if they are truly
motivated. They will learn a squirt gun so fast they will spook if you make
one with your fingers. My cats learned what "treat" meant in a day and run to
the kitchen if we say the word to them.

~~~
cowpewter
Yeah, the hard part is just that cats have different motivations than dogs.
Dogs will do something just because they know you want them to do it and you
are above them in the pack. They are also more likely to be food motivated.

One of my cats is very food motivated. She will always come running for the
word "treat".

One of them is extremely not food motivated. He gets excited when I say treat
because the other cats get excited and he loves excitement. But when the
treats are dispensed, he might eat one, maybe. The first cat will usually
finish his. He's motivated by attention. He will come when called by his name,
just because he knows you will pick him up and snuggle him. Of course, this
also means that if he's bored, he quite quickly learns what you don't want him
to touch or jump on, and will do it just so you go after him for it.

~~~
pmoriarty
_" Dogs will do something just because they know you want them to do it and
you are above them in the pack. They are also more likely to be food
motivated."_

Dr. John Pilley, who trained his dog Chaser to learn over 1000 words and even
syntax (like the difference between "To ball take Frisbee" and "To Frisbee
take ball")[1], said Chaser is best motivated by play.

 _" My last words to the class were to remind them that play was Chaser’s
reward. I told them that they should always reward their dogs for good
behavior by playing with them and petting and praising them. We all learn
better and faster when learning is fun."_[2]

[1] - [https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/dog-spies/how-to-
teach-...](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/dog-spies/how-to-teach-
language-to-dogs/)

[2] - [http://www.chaserthebordercollie.com/the-
book?_escaped_fragm...](http://www.chaserthebordercollie.com/the-
book?_escaped_fragment_=#)!

~~~
cowpewter
That is super cool. So perhaps amend my statement to something like, "all
animals have different motivations, and the best way to train one involves
finding the strongest motivation for that individual."

------
triplesec
Also, your cat is trying to kill you with parasites
[http://www.rectofossal.com/cat-trying-kill/](http://www.rectofossal.com/cat-
trying-kill/)

~~~
cowpewter
If you have an indoor cat it's not. Toxo is only shed by cats for a few weeks
after exposure, and the toxo lifecycle can't be completed indoors so your cat
will not be reinfected. Unless you have a mouse infestation, in which case I'd
be more worried about hantavirus than toxo.

Just keep your cats inside, everyone! It's better for the environment, it's
better for birds, it's better for the cat, it's better for you.

~~~
triplesec
Indoors is categorically not better for the cats. They're nocturnal predators.
Let them hunt as is their desire and way of living. It's like keeping birds in
cages and not letting them fly. Or chickens in battery farms. There are so
many unhappy cats imprisoned for the benefit of their fluffy -loving captors.
If you have cats, you must let them be cats.

So here's the rub: we really have to stop keeping so many cats

~~~
jhbadger
That's exactly like saying humans ought to only live in the savannah of Africa
as hunters and gatherers. Just because that's where humans evolved doesn't
mean that that is the only way they are "supposed" to live, nor is where they
are "happiest". For starters, humans in civilization and indoor cats live a
heck of a lot longer and don't have to worry about getting eaten by predators.

~~~
triplesec
Our modern ways of living, sedentary, often little visceral excitement,
control by overlords and paperwork and rules do lead to an awful lot of
depression and anomie. Why do you think so many people are unhappy? Indoor
cats have that without any of the benefits.

It's not as black and white as you paint it

~~~
int_19h
> Indoor cats have that without any of the benefits.

You mean, except for significantly reduced exposure to diseases and prompt
care for any health issues that do arise, better food, and risk free
entertainment?

Based on the average life expectancy alone, an indoor cat has a lot of
benefits.

------
Paul-ish
Near where my parents live, coyotes have returned. They have been killing a
lot of outdoor cats. I wonder if a reintroduction of coyotes to some areas
would control cat populations naturally.

------
lucker
Well, it's evolution. The locals can't compete. Given enough time, the local
ecosystems will adapt. Compared to the enormous environmental impact of
humans, it's ridiculous to blame cats. You really want to conserve local
species? Get rid of the humans.

------
c10204
Tylenol poisoning is a terrible way to die and advocating it's use is
reckless. Also poisons have a bad tendency to harm more than just your
intended target.

The article also doesn't talk about the invasive bird species humans have
introduced all over the place.

------
ionwake
I am pretty sure the simplest and most humane solution is... to put a small
bell on your cat.

I am suprised no one else has said this.

~~~
icebraining
What about un-owned cats? Those are what they say kill the most.

~~~
CocaKoala
Wouldn't work. Every decent cat collar is designed to come off with only a
minimal amount of tugging[1], so even if you managed to get a collar on every
feral cat in the city, they'd pretty quickly manage to get the collars off.

[1]: This is behavior that you absolutely want to have in a collar that's
designed to go around the neck of an animal who's roaming unsupervised.
Consider the (likely) scenario where the collar gets caught on something, and
the animal panics. If the collar comes undone easily, the cat escapes from
being trapped and saunters off, and you need to buy a new collar when you
can't find the old one. If the collar is shut in such a way that the cat can't
escape, the cat is likely to injure itself.

------
c3833174
"That beloved pets should not be given the opportunity to kill wildlife for
sport is the easy part of this debate."

Why not start by extending that to humans as well?

~~~
oldmanjay
Anyone who believes human hunting is purely evil has never lived in an area
overrun by deer

~~~
matthewowen
Anyone who believes feline hunting is purely evil has never lived in a house
overrun by mice.

------
Mendenhall
I am surprised no one wants to tax cat owners and have a "cat offset tax".
Taxes seem to be all the rage in solutions to problems these days.

------
jokoon
I'm curious about toxoplasmosis. Is it a benign illness? I often am in contact
with my two house cats.

~~~
Fomite
It's not benign, though predominately its a problem in those with compromised
immune systems in the U.S. (things are different in S. America).

------
vacri
Man, if you think that _cats_ kill a lot of things, you should see the
environmental devastation that _humans_ are capable of!

------
markhahn
It's a special kind of creepy when people decide that cats are a problem
worthy of public attention. Yeah, they can cause real problems when introduced
into closed ecosystems which lack a historical small-predator.

~~~
ionwake
[http://notornis.osnz.org.nz/system/files/Notornis_51_4_193.p...](http://notornis.osnz.org.nz/system/files/Notornis_51_4_193.pdf)

------
caub
That's why I hate the current idiocracy: overconsumption, cigarettes, that,
and many other things.. that denaturate the world more than it should

~~~
pc86
Interesting that you look down on the "idiocracy" yet "denaturate" is not a
word.

~~~
caub
denature I guess? I'm not a native speaker

------
HarryHirsch
You'd ask yourself just how diverse the wildlife in an urban environment is,
where the bulk of domestic cats live. Right now I'm not convinced about the
ecological impact.

~~~
lowleveldrone
There are over 250 species of bird present for at least part of the year in
the city where I live, which has a population of 880000.

~~~
jp_sc
Rats with wings

~~~
mikestew
He said "birds" not "bats". If you're going to be snarky, at least get the
classification right.

~~~
vkou
He may have been referring to pigeons. Rats with wings is an apt metaphor.

~~~
yareally
Pigeons only account for one of those 200+ species the OP mentioned though
(unless they live in one of those regions with the native Band-Tailed
Pigeons). That particular kind of pigeon that everyone loathes (European Rock
Pigeons) aren't even native to the New World and are an evasive species.

Ironically, they're in the decline in their natural habitat while thriving in
North/South America. The Americas has a few native pigeons, but none are as
well known or wide spread as the Rock Pigeon. Quite a few pigeon species are
also far from the ugly "rats with wing" stereotype[1], but they don't live in
Europe or North America.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_crowned_pigeon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_crowned_pigeon)

------
BFatts
So silly... we worry about cats, but humans BY FAR are worse for the planet
than cats. Maybe we should be talking about the mass execution of humans who
pose no positive benefit for the population as a whole?

We, as the dominant species, are always looking for ways to save the planet -
but for the most part it is a blame game. Humans are what helped cats hit all
corners of the world. Cats aren't responsible, so why target them?

~~~
alphapapa
> Maybe we should be talking about the mass execution of humans who pose no
> positive benefit for the population as a whole?

Are you serious?

