

PayPal User Charged $4,000 for Mac OS X Lion Download - olegious
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2389271,00.asp

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pilif
sounds familiar: When I wanted to upgrade a SL Server and I already had a Lion
client license, the App Store told me that I also need the Server License and
whether I wanted to buy it.

That made sense like this and I said yes.

This gave me an error 500 and the recommendation to try again.

And again

And again

I got suspicious when the App Store told me that my credit card was declined
and low and behold: Yes. Every error 500 charged me with a Lion client and a
Lion server license until my Credit Card company's fraud detection locked my
card.

The App Store has shown 7 instances of Lion and 6 instances of Lion Server in
the purchased tab, but neither "Install" button actually worked (error 500).

To their credit, they refunded the purchases, but not without telling me in
their ticket response that this is a very generous exception they are making
this one time and that all app store purchases are final.

I guess they are just not quite there where they should be to sell an OS over
only electronic means.

~~~
ZoFreX
> this is a very generous exception they are making this one time and that all
> app store purchases are final

Statements like this make me very glad I live in a country where such
declarations are automatically fiction.

~~~
dspillett
This can't be legal in many places. It certainly isn't here in the EU, and I
find it hard to believe that most (if not all) US states don't have consumer
protection regulations that cover this.

If the error is due to a fault in the system the customer should not be
punished for that error.

I'm not an iStuff user at all at the moment, but would consider an iDevice if
it were ever the right tool for the job at the right price. If they are going
to try make the customers pay for faults like this (forcing the customer to
know and quote relevant law/regulations to get the right thing done) then my
attitude will move to never touching an iProduct for as long as I live and
recommending friends/family/other take a similar stance.

~~~
ZoFreX
I don't mean just from a fault perspective - if I buy something online in
general I can get a refund later if I merely change my mind (although I don't
know if this applies to purely digital purchases). In the UK, most of the
times you see "No refunds", the sign in question has zero effect.

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jarin
Ok so the problem here is not that there is a bug in the payment processing.
That shouldn't happen, but it does. The problem is that neither of these
multi-billion dollar companies cares about this customer enough to suck up a
$4000 error until it gets straightened out.

I've been a long time customer of both Apple and PayPal. It seems like Apple
did eventually refund the purchases, although I would have expected them to do
it faster. PayPal, on the other hand, literally does not give a shit about you
or the fact that you can't eat until your transaction goes through their
absurdly slow system.

Ever notice that Bank of America's ATMs can scan and process a check and give
you money in 10 seconds, but PayPal takes 10 days?

~~~
sliverstorm
To be fair, everything in the banking & money transfer world takes 2-3 days,
and Paypal acts as a middleman, so an in => out would take 4-6 (business)
days.

The only reason Bank of America's ATM gives you cash on the spot is it scans
the check, "thinks" it is good, and BoA credits you cash. Paypal is not in the
business of crediting anyone anything, not in the least because anybody can
sign up for an account with almost no identification.

~~~
davweb
The 2-3 day wait isn't the case in the UK anymore. UK banks - under pressure
from the government via the Office of Fair Trading - now process money
transfers in half a day.

The point is that the transfer never required that long to process, but if a
Bank (or PayPal) can hold on to your money for a few extra days then it's a
few more days of interest on the money for them.

[http://www.ukpayments.org.uk/faster_payments_service/backgro...](http://www.ukpayments.org.uk/faster_payments_service/background/)

~~~
cma
In the US they also hold it that long so that if you overdraft they can
retroactively reorder your transactions largest first so that you will get the
maximum number of overdraft fees.

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lambada
I didn't realise Apple accepted PayPal, when did they get this integration?

~~~
rimantas
The problem must be on Apple's side anyway. I was lucky and only got charged
trice and I did not use Paypal, just my App Store account. I hope to get extra
charges back without doing anything, because technically money are still on my
CC account just "frozen". After some time they are "unfrozen" automatically if
merchant does not claim them. I see Apple already took it's share (I had three
entries with the same amount, now only two are left) so the rest should stay
in the account and be unfrozen in a few days. Still not funny.

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fakeer
Wow.. Apple, you go, sometimes, a little too far in giving us "the user
experience".

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SODaniel
502 it went through, 504 try once more.

~~~
ars
That's a reddit failure, not some kind of global rule.

------
SODaniel
PCmag.com = FoxNews of online reporting.

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baddox
Slightly similar to this: I recently jailbroke my iPad 2 and installed a
cracked application through installous. When you do that, legitimate updates
to your cracked applications appear in the app store. Somehow, through some
sort of bug, I was actually charged for the app when I accidentally clicked
"update all" in the app store. It never asked me for my password (possibly
because I had input it recently enough) or asked for a confirmation on the
purchase. I didn't even notice it had been purchased until the iTunes receipt
came in my email the next day.

~~~
gary4gar
Piracy is not justification.You should not pirate apps in first place. you are
breaking law here.

Now since you were using the app & enjoying all its benefits -- its developers
are full rights to get paid for their labour & hard work.

~~~
jamaicahest
So because he stole the app, the developer is allowed to steal money from him?
What kind of logic is that?

~~~
jeffool
The developer didn't steal anything. At most, Apple did. But there's probably
wording in the agreement about services for payment and Apple taking the
payment. Their reasoning likely being he took the service, so they took the
money.

Legal? Probably not, but he has no recourse. But it reminds me of when people
call the cops and say "arrest that person; they stole my drugs!"

~~~
baddox
I'm not demanding recourse, and I'm not even saying that I am justified in
pirating an app. However, I often pirate apps to try them, and the vast
majority that I try are terrible, and I uninstall them almost immediately.
Therefore, legality aside, I'm not ethically concerned that I'm "stealing"
potential revenue from the app developer if I only use their app for 5
minutes.

My point is, this was definitely a bug in the app store, because before any
charge there should be a clear modal confirmation dialog (and there normally
is).

~~~
jeffool
Honestly I've got no problem with what you did. I'm just saying that they
probably covered themselves in the legalese.

For instance, my cable company recently shut off my Internet due to excessive
DMCA complaints. They told me they had a "four strike" policy. They cut me
after three. I could threaten a lawsuit, even if it would be silly, but that
would potentially open me up for other legal attacks, so I'm forced to walk
away.

So all I'm saying is that they got you in a tight spot, and they've probably
paid enough lawyers to make sure they're covered. Their hardware detected
software, so they charged you for it. I find it hard to imagine they haven't
written it up to cover themselves.

