

Ask HN: Paying for University as an undocumented student - idontlikebacon

Hey HN,<p>I've been living in the United States since the age of 2, but I was actually born Saudi Arabia. During my sophomore year in high school my parents clued me in on the fact that they never actually got me my citizenship, and that I only had an overstayed tourist visa.<p>But things became really problematic when I graduated and realized that my illegal status makes me ineligible for all of the scholarships I earned (one in particular is a full ride Floridian scholarship) and would force me to pay out of state tuition.<p>So with no way to pay for school, I took a gap year which I'm four months into. I've been supplementing this off time with OCW computer science lecture videos and a ton of self study; however, everything's much more arduous and lonely than studying in a college environment and I don't want to fall behind.<p>I've come up with two solutions: apply to universities in Canada and Europe and hopefully be admitted to one of those countries on a student visa or stick it out here and find a way to pay for school. So I'm coming to you, HN, for some advice on how I could possibly pay for school. Are there private, merit based scholarships I could earn? Could I work a job with only a ITIN and no SSN? Is there a way I can petition for in-state tuition?<p>Please, any advice would help me out.<p><i>edit:</i> I realize, on paper, I'm a criminal. I really don't see it that way, and I'd like to try everything I can to stay in the United States. I also cannot apply for citizenship with an overstayed visa and leaving the country would prevent my reentry for 10 years; something I'm trying to avoid.<p><i>edit 2:</i> I'm here to talk about how to pay out of state tuition, not my status. For those who are curious, here are the only options I have when it comes to dealing with my status: get married, leave the country and be barred from reentry for 10 years, or wait for reform. So my stopping being a "criminal" is not a matter of choice or lack of will.
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aditya
Talk to an immigration lawyer, ASAP. Drop me an email if you need one. You're
in a tough spot, without a US passport even Europe/Canada will be hard.

You could just go to a cheaper college but why risk it?

~~~
idontlikebacon
I have talked to a lawyer and read USCIS's documentation, and fully understand
my options (marriage, barred from reentry, or wait for reform.) However, if
you know a good lawyer, I'm not resistant to a second or third opinion.

That's worrying though -- would my history in the US negatively affect me
overseas?

~~~
aditya
Yeah, those options seem right to me, but IANAL.

If you get deported it will most likely affect your visa situation for
Canada/Europe, if you leave voluntarily, maybe not. Honestly, The Internet is
a bad place to ask for legal advice.

~~~
idontlikebacon
You're right, but I was looking for some hidden scholarships or less obvious
methods for paying out of state tuition. I'm also pretty open about my
situation, since I know ICE doesn't really deport (almost)law abiding people.

~~~
sizzla
Exactly, ICE won't deport you unless you get in the news or f__k up big time
and get booked (such as, for example, driving over X mph in certain states)
and on top of that if someone in the po-lice really hates you (they'll play
dumb otherwise). I have my own opinion on why this is, something to do with
actually needing illegals, but don't want to start a flamewar.

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sucuri2
Sorry to hear that. Even not being born here, you are as american as anyone
else and since you came when you were only 2, you didn't do anything wrong as
well.

However, the law is not on your side... I wish they had done part of the
immigration reform to deal with people on your situation. I suggest talking to
a lawyer asap to see what you can do. You could even apply as a refugee, since
you don't speak arabic and coming back to your home country could put you in
risk...

thanks,

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jbseek
I have a friend of mine who found himself in a similar situation. He is
working on his PHD now. He approached the school staff and set up something
where he would pay everything out of pocket even given his meager means this
guy worked hard to pay off every penny.

This is nothing that is impossible, i hope it works out.

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rcfox
Canada's not going to be a whole lot cheaper. It seems my school is 3-6 times
more expensive for non-Canadians.
<http://findoutmore.uwaterloo.ca/financing/expenses.php>

I'm guessing the others are going to be fairly similar.

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sizzla
I read your post thoroughly and all the replies so far.

Advice: 1) There are plenty of merit-based scholarships. Forget about Florida
and think about out-of-state universities. Don't aim very high and get into a
Tier 2 University where you will be their super-fab superstar.

2) Don't plan on leaving the country or even leaving to do work any time soon.
There are full-ride merit-based scholarships and your family just needs to
provide you the money for some clothes, some books and an occasional ticket
home.

You didn't mention options that are breaking the law, but that are likely to
have little repercussions for you if you get caught (second hand experiences):

1) Do not on any forms circle anything that would indicate you are a non-US
citizen.

2) If there is a form asking if you are a U.S. resident, circle yes. If this
ever becomes an issue you can lie that you thought it was for tax purposes
(for which you are a resident).

3) Imagine your parents never told you your real story. What are the real
world situations in which someone will ask for your birth certificate? There
are just a few and one of them is for getting an SSN.

4) Play dumb. With a merit-based scholarship you'll buy yourself years more of
time. U.S. degrees in Comp. Sci are highly valued overseas and require little
to no paperwork to convert into whatever country's accreditation system.

5) Talk to immigration lawyers, they usually have good ideas.

6) Try to gather information from other illegals. With all the security
paranoia it might be harder nowadays, but I bet there is still a somewhat
accessible underground that will, for around $15000, be able to procure you an
SSN with your name on it. That is all you need, once you have an SSN, you are
gold my friend and no one ever needs to know. Don't go for it, but find out if
such networks still exist or if everything got so computerized that an SSN is
impossible to obtain.

7) Talk to more lawyers.

8) If there is ever a deportation procedure against you, this can be stalled
for a loooong time I think with a case like yours. Be prepared to write lots
of correspondence with powers that be. Lawyers are good.

9) Accept only under-the-table cash in hands for occasional contracting/coding
work. Accept a car or some other good. Sell it later. For cash. You can make
enough like this to support yourself while in college.

10) Wait until some legislation gets passed admitting the X million of
illegals into the country. Number X will grow over years and eventually a
generation will be quietly legalized. This will happen sooner or later. A big
one happened in the early 1990s. You might spend the next 20 years waiting for
this, but if anything like the DREAM act eventually passes, you're gold and
welcome to America.

Oh and yes, if things are getting desperate, consider forging a Florida birth
certificate if your in-state scholarship documentation requires it. My guess
is they have nowhere near enough resources to verify these. If the scholarship
requires an SSN, you are fux0red.

If there are people upset about me posting this stuff, I'd just like to remind
that I hope this still adds signal and that the name of this website is Hacker
News.

~~~
anigbrowl
Do not buy an SSN/fake birth cert or falsely claim citizenship. Overstaying a
visa is an administrative violation but not a crime as such. False claims
/documents are a felony and will torpedo your case, even decades later. Just
forget about those ideas.

~~~
sizzla
I agree, the SSN/fake birth cert is the riskiest most dangerous proposition ..
I have interacted with people who have done this some 15 years ago and they
are still around, they have a family, a US passport and a steady decent paying
job. What I don't know is how many got busted and landed in deep stuff.

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righto
I have worked in higher education in various U.S. states and several other
countries as both a professor and an academic adviser. In the latter case, my
job was to help students "navigate the system." Getting through college and
paying for it can be complicated if you are trying to do it alone. It's worth
learning how to pay the game and how to find help getting through.

A few thoughts:

Finding merit-based scholarships as a non-citizen is not easy. The key is to
go local. Funding from your department, school, or local community groups and
businesses is much less likely to require any proof of legal status. Most
scholarship committees frankly don't care. I have worked as a scholarship
judge. The last thing you want is extra info from a thousand applicants that
won't help you choose the best people. However, such scholarships are usually
small, in the $500 - $2,000 range, and are usually awarded after you have
already been enrolled in a certain school. The ones that pay out more have
more applicants and are a long shot. These will be a bonus but not a way to
pay most of your tuition. Sometimes it's easier just to work than take the
time to apply to the smallest awards.

Besides scholarships, another thing to think about is the price tag of the
university. Costs vary widely among states. Community colleges are much
cheaper than four-year schools and I would strongly recommend starting out at
one. It's easy to find a good community college. Pick an upscale suburban
neighborhood, a top-tier university area, or liberal arts college town and
find the nearest community college. Ivy-type schools usually overshadow a
really good community college. The bonus is that you can hang out with the top
students from the four-year school while paying cheap tuition. You might even
be able to build a support network that helps you transfer into the four-year
school. Since you're undocumented, lean toward areas with large numbers of
undocumented students, or at least places that are not hostile to immigrants.
To state the obvious, Arizona and Texas would not be first on my list. Places
that tend to spend more on public infrastructure and have rich people hanging
around that give money away are probably a good bet, too. I'm guessing you
won't find as much financial largess in the South.

Among U.S. states, California seems to have the most tolerant university
system for undocumented students I've seen, probably partially because there
are so many in the system and because everyone is related to someone, or at
least has a friend, who is undocumented. They have their own category in the
system: AB 540.* Even though you would not be legally considered AB 540, I
think you could just tell people you are when interacting with college staff
and faculty. If "undocumented" is a nice way to say "illegal," "AB 540" is a
nice way to say "undocumented." Plus, it protects you because the sort of
person who would turn you in doesn't know what it means. Unlike other states
I've been in, students openly discuss their status with college staff,
professors, and classmates in CA. I have talked with admission and
registration staff at several urban colleges about this issue. They are
adamant that they do not and will not share information on legal status with
any branch of the U.S. government. Always be careful, but you're better off in
this kind of environment. For example, I overheard a student approach an
engineering department chair about the fact that he couldn't apply for most
big corporate internships because of his status. The professor advised the
student to continue studying as long as he could (i.e. to the PhD level) and
get top grades. He said that becoming indispensable in some technical field
will earn you a visa in the U.S. or a good job in some other country. Not sure
if that's accurate or good advice, but it was interesting that the student
felt comfortable approaching a professor he didn't know well about this
problem, and the professor addressed it completely matter-of-fact-ly.

Undocumented students, even those from middle class families, tend to be
impoverished because they have to pay more tuition and work very low paying
jobs. In general, I have noticed that California college administrative staff
tend to be more understanding of very low income students than staff in other
states. For example, they will make arrangements for installment payments of
smaller sums of money. The community college system allows for paying bills
later in the term as well. In some states, the computers automatically drop
your classes if you haven't paid after the first two weeks, but I believe this
is illegal in CA. In the CA State University (CSU) system, annual in-state
tuition is now around $6,000 a year, a bargain compared to many other states,
but considered expensive by locals. Out-of-state tuition is considered
extremely expensive, which means you will get more help and sympathy trying to
pay your tuition. Increases in tuition are happening regularly due to the
budget fiasco, but having sympathetic people to help you through is worth a
lot. Often, staff control scholarship dollars locally and have extra money to
allocate. Most students don't know this, but when not enough people apply for
money dedicated to African-American and Latino students, it can often go to
you if you ask for it. Getting to know these staff people is worth a lot. They
often have titles such as academic advisor, MESA coordinator, TRIO--there are
lots of acronyms that just refer to different pots of federal money that pay
their salaries, but they are usually housed in "Student Affairs" or "Student
Services." The key web search terms related to these people are "students at
risk," "disadvantaged" or "first-generation" students. "Leaving college" is
the PC term they use for dropping out. When I did this job, my university had
a row of five or six offices that each did the same thing, but our salaries
all came from different funds. Any of us would have helped you if you had
asked. Many officially support a certain ethnicity--according to their job
description--but if you ask for their help, they will help you regardless. If
you are familiar with the concept of a "case manager," they do something
similar. Their job is to know about where money and resources are, and which
people in the rest of the university (financial aid/registration/etc.) are
helpful and which should be avoided. Pick a region where you want to study and
start visiting these people. Just cold call them and walk into their offices.
You will eventually find someone who will help you out, and that's a good
place to go to school.

If this doesn't work out and you do end up deciding to leave the country, you
have a few things going for you.

To increase their international rankings and sometimes to meet local political
initiatives, universities in many countries are trying to ratchet up the
number of foreign students they accept. Most of them can't find enough people
from "rich" countries. Some of them will give you a free ride so that their
"international program" is slightly more international and not all Chinese and
Pakistani students. Search online for "international studies" or
"international business" programs.

Top universities in some countries would love to have you just because you are
"American" to them (the irony) and speak English. You are guaranteed to get
into most of the top schools in South Korea, for example, and then be
guaranteed lab research opportunities with whomever you ask, if you are
interested in science or engineering. Your degree will have much more value
inside the country than outside it, but if you are actually interested in the
place where you study, it might be worth it.

Since you're from Saudi, you might consider the Middle East. There's loads of
money in new universities in places like the UAE and they want international
students. The money still exceeds the quality, but they are intent on spending
to get the quality up, and money is what you're looking for. Go there for
undergrad, then get a free graduate (or "post-graduate" as they call it)
degree in Europe.

Some countries still have cheap or free tuition. Look at Scandinavian schools.
Look at the top schools in Latin America, such as UNAM in Mexico City. Many of
these schools will have extensive course offerings in English, although I
recommend learning the local language on your way through school. Heck, maybe
you could even stay in the U.S. and figure out how to study online at a
foreign university, although you'd probably have to pay cash. Check out
Australia for that. They have been rapidly expanding their higher education
system internationally.

I guess I could go on, but this should get you started thinking about these
things. A couple of websites that will give you a few more search terms:

* <http://ab540.com/WhatIsAb540.html>

[http://www.californiacolleges.edu/finance/financial-aid-
faqs...](http://www.californiacolleges.edu/finance/financial-aid-
faqs/undocumented-students.asp)

~~~
idontlikebacon
Thank you righto, this is incredibly useful. Monday morning I'm going to talk
to as many advisors as I can.

------
hugh3
If you're not legally entitled to be in the US, then get the fuck out of the
US.

~~~
queensnake
How broken is our system that someone can manage to stay 16+ years without
getting caught. I mean really, the laws and policies need to be adjusted to
make that impossible.

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idontlikebacon
I think it's worse that I can't earn my citizenship. The immigration system
has neglected undocumented students: a very specific niche of illegals.

I'm completely American and you'd never guess that I'm illegal unless I told
you (the stigma is all illegals speak broken English and are some sort of
Latino, which I'm not.)

~~~
queensnake
Your parents didn't do a good job taking care of you. Sucks for you.

~~~
jbseek
By that same judgement your parents didn't teach you the virtue "if you don't
have something good to say, you should keep your mouth shut"

