
Ask HN: Fired at 51 weeks by prominent startup? - VestingBurn
I was fired at 51 weeks by a somewhat prominent startup. For the first time, I went on unemployment while finding my next opportunity. The startup contested unemployment however they were overruled by the judge. I went on unemployment for the health insurance as I have a young child.<p>I fear associating my name with this incident however I also think I should warn my fellow engineers. The options were clawed back.<p>How would you handle being fired without cause at 51 weeks? Would you share it publicly?
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akg_67
Don't say anything about the company publicly. Hire an employment lawyer, let
him/her go after the company. Assuming your first batch of options were going
to vest at one year anniversary, firing at 51 weeks seems suspicious.

Once lawyer has extracted what s/he can from the company and settlement
doesn't prevent you from further pursuing, send complaints to department of
labor and state attorney general. While DOL and AG office most probably will
not do anything, The complaints will go on file at both offices. If the
company is pulling similar stunts with other employees and DOL/AG office sees
series of similar complaints, they may go after the company.

Privately bad-mouth the company to your network (not intentionally), word gets
around and will warn others. Make sure you never work for another company
connected to founders and senior executives of this company. Unethical
management and investors at the top attract unethical people and breed
unethical culture, they will never change their behavior.

~~~
x0x0
Or, if you're going to make a scene publicly, at least let the lawyer advise
you on it. Better to leave that in his or her set of things to threaten the
company with. ie maybe you can negotiate a vesting agreement in exchange for a
nondisparagement agreement.

Having been to a lawyer in really stressful circumstances, here's what you
should do: Write down what happened, in chronological order. Be brutally
honest about everything you did. Revise this a couple times. This way, you
won't get emotional during the recounting and leave out crucial details.
Differentiate claims and claims with proof. eg did your boss give you
feedback? Written? ie was that a "good job" in the hallway or an excellent
written annual review? Do you have a copy?

Then get a free consultation (they all do it) with a couple employment
lawyers. Bring this paper, let them read it, and let them lay out your
options. Bring any papers you've signed -- employment agreement, reviews,
employee handbook, etc.

ps -- forward critical emails from your boss/cto to your personal account for
safekeeping. Reviews, promotions, even negative feedback. Keep your own copy.

good luck.

~~~
Gibbon1
Yes, OP should totally STFU and quietly go to an employment lawyer.

~~~
jdenning
This is the correct advice. 1 week before vesting is pretty suspicious, but
you need to talk to a lawyer before you do anything else.

------
sulam
This is rude move in several ways. First of all, at several prominent
companies where I've worked both as a manager and an individual contributor,
you would let the person cliff their year if they made it that far. If you
were so bad a fit that it was worth firing you in the first year, they could
have fired you in the first six months just as easily.

Which leads me to another way this is rude: when I'm looking at an employment
record and I see someone was somewhere 6 months or less, I don't think much of
it. Clearly something didn't work out, even if it wasn't mutual. When I see
someone having been there one year, I assume there's one of two options:
either the employee just wanted to cliff their shares and then move on or the
company let them vest and then fired them. Either one of these does not
reflect well on the employee. To let you stay 51 weeks and fire you without
options is a double whammy -- I'm going to have the same negative reaction and
you have no upside. :/

When you look for your next job, you may want to emphasize that you were at
UnicornCo for less than a year to avoid this bias or at least offset it some.
That will obviously require you to have a reasonable explanation for why there
wasn't a good fit, but you were going to need that anyway.

Forgot to add: contesting your unemployment at a reasonably sized company is
really unheard of. Even when someone is fired, unless they are fired for cause
(like, they stole stuff, harassed someone, etc) you're going to give them
unemployment. If I'm interviewing you, this detail will make me want to dig
further into your story. Take that as you will.

~~~
nharada
This is not related directly to OP, but I'm interested to hear opinions from
others: Do you really look poorly on someone who quits after a year instead of
6 or 18 months? If so, how far after that year before you don't think poorly
of the move anymore? A few months? A year?

~~~
cure
When I look at resumes, I don't like to see a series of short (less than 18
months, say) stints. It can happen once or twice, no problem - sometimes
things just don't work out.

If the resume shows three or more short stints, especially in a row, it's a
red flag.

I might still phone screen the candidate if their experience looks relevant
and the resume is otherwise impressive, but I'm going to ask about the short
positions, and the answer matters a lot.

~~~
flukus
Your avoiding hiring people that get frustrated in crappy environments and
rewarding the ones that put with it them or don't know any better.

~~~
romanhn
Note that he's talking about a series of short stints, not just one or two. If
every environment is lousy and warrants immediate exit, perhaps the problem is
not entirely with the environments. Chronic complaining without a bias for
action is not exactly a positive trait as far as interviewing is concerned.

~~~
flukus
> If every environment is lousy and warrants immediate exit, perhaps the
> problem is not entirely with the environments

Most are like that IME. This is compounded by the fact that these are the
companies most frequently hiring.

You've probably seen comments along the lines of 90% of candidates failing
fizzbuzz? Remember those candidates work somewhere.

~~~
romanhn
Don't believe that FizzBuzz trope - there certainly are candidates that can't
code their way out of a wet paper bag, but they are hardly the majority. I'll
also point out that 90% of companies could care less about time/space
complexity, optimized algorithms and data structures more complex than a hash
table. Business apps are everywhere and don't require a fancy CS degree - some
folks thrive in these environments, for others it's personal hell.

I guess what I'm getting at is that the onus for company/team/culture fit is
on both the interviewer and the interviewee. Bad luck aside, there's no excuse
for running into irreparably lousy workplaces time and time again.

~~~
flukus
> Don't believe that FizzBuzz trope

Don't believe it? It's not something I'm just parroting, it's something I've
seen for myself, from people with more than a decade of experience.

> I guess what I'm getting at is that the onus for company/team/culture fit is
> on both the interviewer and the interviewee.

As an interviewee you don't have access to the single most important piece of
information to make that assessment, the source code. When this changes then
me and a lot of others will stop ending up at crappy companies.

------
vabmit
A lot of people said hire a lawyer. I think that's wrong. I would just move on
and find another job and forget about this start-up. My guess would be that
either you had bad luck and got involved with a bad founding team or that
there were performance issues/issues with your working
relationships/personality. Either way just moving on is the mature thing to
do. I would never hire anyone who mentioned the word "lawyer" over a firing
(let alone actually sued a company) that's just too much of a risk for a small
company/start-up. Talking to other engineers at the company to "warn them", or
better yet, gain an understanding of why you were let go would probably be
helpful in your own career development. When I've had to fire a technical
person, I've always gone over the matter with their co-workers to make sure
there is coverage and not a skills gap with out the person. If you do sue,
your name will most likely show up in public court filings. That could end
your career with start-ups unless the start-up turns out to be a total
publicly visible disaster. The economic damage to your reputation will likely
outweigh any awards from the court (if you even win the case)... especially
after you pay your legal team.

Were your options really "clawed back" (meaning recouping compensation that
has already been given) or did they just not vest? Unless you mean founder
equity or RSUs instead of options, I can't see how you would have had them
after 51 weeks. Usually, people vest like 25% of their promised equity
compensation after 1 year (the "cliff") and then a small percentage each
additional month until they fully vest after 4 (or sometimes 5) years.

------
twostorytower
First off, I'm sorry this happened to you. That's a really sucky thing for a
company to do to somebody.

That said, you're not in a good place right now. Don't make any rash decisions
in that state of mind. It's really not in your best interest to take this
public.

At the end of the day, the company didn't do anything illegal. You most likely
signed a standard 4 year/1 year cliff vesting schedule, and it did what it was
designed to do. What they did was immoral and wrong, but not illegal. Sure,
you can still sue (unlikely you'd win but they may settle to avoid a costly
legal battle). And if you think a year of your options are going to be really
valuable, it may be worth discussing with a lawyer if you're willing to foot
the bill.

My best advice - focus on finding a new job right now. Land somewhere with a
great track record for employee well-being so you don't run into this in the
future. Get settled into that first. There's no benefit to making a big deal
about this right this second. Bring yourself to a good place, then explore
your options.

~~~
VestingBurn
Thanks -- this actually happened end of February. I decided to wait until I
was in a good place before asking.

------
jacquesm
Check your contract for acceleration clauses in case you've been fired without
cause you might still have a chance.

Regardless of whether or not they are in this contract this is something that
you should always insist on when signing up with a start-up.

Have _your_ lawyer that _you_ pay check your paperwork before signing to make
sure it is fair, don't be pressured and don't take 'this is standard stuff' as
a reason to sign it without review.

Yes, it will cost you some money but it may save you _much_ more.

~~~
phest
How likely is a startup to allow that type of clause for a non executive? I
thought sacking people at will was part of the business appeal of places like
California.

~~~
jacquesm
If they don't allow a clause like that that would be a pretty good reason not
to put your signature at the bottom of the paper.

~~~
devin
That's not the question that was asked. The question was: how likely is it?

------
late2part
I would handle it publicly if I felt I was treated unfairly in a way that
suggests the company is inherently biased.

I don't understand your use of 'clawed back.' Commonly stock options don't
vest until the first year - were your options really clawed back or were they
unvested at termination?

Why were you fired?

It's plausible you can make a statement anonymously, while your employer would
know who it is, most hiring managers in the future wouldn't know it was you,
or of the issue.

There's nothing wrong with going on unemployment when you're terminated. You
directly or indirectly pay for that unemployment insurance.

~~~
btym
_> I don't understand your use of 'clawed back.' Commonly stock options don't
vest until the first year - were your options really clawed back or were they
unvested at termination?_

I believe they're saying that they had less than a week til their options
would vest, but the company pulled the rug out from under them.

~~~
late2part
Words have very specific meanings. Most employee equity contracts require 1
year of service before vesting. If the company played dirty and terminated him
at 51 weeks to avoid granting the options, that's not cool but it's within the
scope of the agreement.

Clawback in this context has a specific meaning -
[http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/clawback.asp](http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/clawback.asp).

See also [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/business/dealbook/wells-
fa...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/business/dealbook/wells-fargo-john-
stumpf-compensation.html)

Clawback is taking back something given. Since quite likely the options were
never vested or transferred, they weren't clawed back.

~~~
VestingBurn
Yes, I misused the term. Their actions were within the scope of the agreement.

------
brudgers
That sucks. My random advice from the internet is that there's almost
certainly nothing to be gained by turning a termination into news on the
internet. The experience is sunk cost. Rationalizing a marginal action as
righteous is still rationalizing. And, unless you have forty four hundred
followers on Twitter, the primary damage is likely to be to yourself...the
company probably outguns you on social media and when it comes to employment
networking. Besides, if you had forty four hundred followers on Twitter, there
would have been a tweetstorm when it happened.

Anyway, success is very often the best form of revenge on asshats. Good luck.

------
pavlov
Would it make sense to share your experience on Glassdoor? That's probably the
most widely read forum if you want to warn others of this company.

~~~
greenyoda
If he mentioned on Glassdoor that he was fired after 51 weeks, that would
pretty much be making a public statement that the company could attribute to
him (unless they did this to many other people).

If he ever wants to sue the company, the first thing a lawyer would tell him
is to not make any public statements.

~~~
35bge57dtjku
He doesn't have to specify 51 weeks on glassdoor.

------
anon543210
This actually happened to me as well. I was released about one month prior to
my shares vesting, but they didn't contest my unemployment. Still its a real
bs thing to do. I wish I could say something publicly and let others know
about the mess that place was but I decided against it. They also made me sign
papers prior to getting my final check and vacation pay that said I wouldn't
take any action against them.

~~~
late2part
Almost certainly they didn't make you. The law says they have to pay you when
they terminate you. [https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-
samples/hr-...](https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/hr-
qa/pages/californiapaymentoffinalwages.aspx)

They likely offered you an inducement (severance pay) in exchange for you
agreeing to a contract that precludes disparagement or other action. If they
did coerce or force you into signing, the contract is null and void and you
should see an attorney.

Were you offered any severance above and beyond your due wages?

~~~
anon543210
>They likely offered you an inducement (severance pay) in exchange for you
agreeing to a contract that precludes disparagement or other action.

Yes this was the case.

------
kogir
Most startup options amount to nothing. What happened to you is reprehensible,
but be careful to ensure you don't spend more money pursuing this than you're
likely to gain.

Remember that options are just the privilege to exchange real money that has
value now for restricted private stock you can't easily sell and will very
likely be worthless. Obviously you know more about the company having worked
there - just be careful indignation and a sense of justice don't prevent you
from making the optimal financial decision.

~~~
VestingBurn
Well said. Thanks.

------
sfifs
See a good employment lawyer. Unless you were fired for unethical practices,
harassment, theft types of reasons, almost certainly a contention for wrongful
termination can be made in a case like this. Your employer has taken a
ridiculous risk.

------
JSeymourATL
> How would you handle being fired without cause...

Get up... dust-yourself-off, and Move On!

The knee-jerk lawyer-up advice is asinine. The only guys who win that game are
attorneys. Are you prepared to spend $5-10K+ in 'modest' legal fees so you can
to go to war with a former employer? Do you really trust the courts will right
the wrong you perceive?

It totally sucks being fired! The biggest bruise is to your ego and immediate
cash-flow. Best to put that time/money/energy into connecting with a new,
potentially more rewarding job.

~~~
venkasub
I would agree. Shit happens; deal with it without wasting more resources on
it. [BUT, If you can afford the legal fees and more importantly -- the TIME --
go for it, but do not go with the idea of vendetta in mind, but rightful
compensation.]

I somehow like the idea of 'Let Go', though easier said than done, this will
make you realize many things in life and prepare you for the Future than
continue to lurk in the Past.

(Or is it the Buddha in me talking!!)

------
justin66
Ask an unemployment lawyer to get as much from them possible. Ask that lawyer
about the risks of talking publicly. The people here are not paid to worry
about your well being...

~~~
devin
> Ask an unemployment lawyer to get as much from them possible.

I don't recall the source, but I remember overhearing advice about when to
sue. The advice I heard was "Before you hire a lawyer, count to 1,000 twice."

> The people here are not paid to worry about your well being...

No, they are not.

------
paulcole
You're the guy who got fired. Why would anyone listen to you? Just because it
wasn't for cause doesn't mean they just didn't get fed up with you sucking and
decide to get you out ASAP.

This is how people will perceive this.

~~~
VestingBurn
I don't disagree. It's interesting seeing this angle on it though:

[https://zachholman.com/posts/fired/](https://zachholman.com/posts/fired/)

But again, I don't disagree with you. There is a lot of grey around in being
fired and people tend to believe authority over non-authority (for good or
bad, that seems to be the case).

------
lien
I would sue the company. most definitely. There's no need to make a scene
publicly, but if you were let go without much warning, you would be able to
win. CA protects workers and a good lawyer would be able to find a good cause
for this.

------
debacle
Assuming this is in CA, you have a lot of tools and protections available to
you as an employee.

~~~
VestingBurn
I hope that is true but so far, what I've found is that due to CA being an "at
will" state, you can be fired at any time for any reason. That is what makes
the 1 year option cliff daunting in CA. I think some startups view it as we
can get away with anything in that first year due to the threat of termination
before the options vest.

I tend not to put so much weight on options but it is an interesting issue.

But to get back to your post, was there anything in particular you were
thinking of? I'm just not sure what to look for or if this is more the kind of
thing it is hard to know about without being in employment law.

------
smegel
> The startup contested unemployment

What does this even mean?? (non-American here).

~~~
VestingBurn
When you file for unemployment, an employee from the government contacts you
and the employer. The employer can claim you were fired for a reason. Then the
claim is automatically denied unless you contest it. When you contest it, you
appear before a local judge. It's just you, the judge, and the other party (in
this case, my manager). They present their argument and you present yours.

In this case, they really tried to throw tons of things at me (some I had
contradicting evidence in non-work email however I had no idea they would make
such wild claims). The judge forced them to narrow it down to the top 3-4. For
these items, the judge heard one side and then the other. Then we had closing
arguments.

Apparently, many people who are denied unemployment do not contest it. But in
my experience, it was very straight forward. I did not need a lawyer. I stayed
calm and presented my side.

The very next day I received a letter informing me that I had won and by the
wording it was clear the judge sided completely with me. Of course, that was
just for unemployment however it was a very satisfactory experience.

------
rajacombinator
This is why vesting cliffs are BS. (And I say that from a founder
perspective.) Sorry you got screwed.

------
nstj
Lawyer.

------
fleitz
Name the company, don't name yourself.

~~~
VestingBurn
How does one do this without looking like a heckler on the side of the road
that nobody is going to pay attention to?

~~~
fleitz
glass door, etc.

------
cjhanks
If you were at 3D robotics, forget it. Might be coincidence.

------
mattbgates
Sometimes it is a blessing in disguise, but go ahead and share it publicly if
you wish, especially if you were fired for reasons unjustified but there is
also the chance that the startup simply let go of the people they thought were
the least valuable asset to their company. Similar situation happened to me.

I say it might be a blessing in disguise because... I worked for a software
company that designed kiosks for solar panels and I worked on the design of
the software, how it looked, special requests, etc. Anyways, in the interview,
they said they were hiring me to help catch them up.. they had about 150
clients they had to cold call to get information from them, assets, etc. --
these clients had already paid their money, but hadn't received kiosks or
software. Anyways, to make a long story short, about a year later, I had
knocked them down to about 30 clients left.

Meanwhile, our competition was also growing, and these companies were
developing in HTML5, whereas we were still building in flash-based software,
with an in-house developer working on it upgrading us, but the actual update
never seemed to come. Anyways, it seemed that because that company refused to
update their software, we lost out to our competition, or we were starting to
lose.

I was called into an office, where human resources told me they had to let me
go. So they gave me the choice: If I didn't file for unemployment, they would
give me a 3-week severance pay. Fortunately for me, I was working a second
job, so I actually couldn't file for unemployment, so that helped me out and
was like getting paid for doing nothing for 3 weeks. Awesome how some things
worked out, though in the first week was rough, I was certainly devastated..
nothing can prepare you for the moment you get laid off... and you go over so
many scenarios in your head, "What did I do wrong? What could I have done
better? What email did I forget to send? What assignment did I miss? Was it
that one time I was 10 minutes late coming back from lunch? Was it that one
day that I was running late to work because I overslept?" You go over
everything because honestly, you just don't really know.

I had later found out they were struggling badly, financially, and I was the
most expendable, so they let me go. I was lucky because I also kept in touch
with my former co-workers, who all were not being paid on time, who were still
showing up to work, not knowing if they were going to get paid or not, and
some of them had to take the company to smalls claims court to get what they
were owed. The company soon went under and I think they managed to stay in
business by keeping three employees, simply for maintenance issues for
existing clients.

So lucky to be let go first.. as everyone else would soon have to struggle,
whereas I had a nice free ride for 3 weeks of making money by doing nothing,
but accepting the fact that they laid me off. Did I write about this company?
Sure did but there was and is still no reason to mention their name or be mad
at them. Tough world of competition out there and they lost. Do I expect
anything from it? Absolutely not. Life goes on and you find other companies.

Startups are either successful.. or they aren't. And I am sure no startup
wants to fire or lay off their employees, but sometimes, the startup is just
failing, and they feel horrible themselves, wanting to have been successful,
but realizing the reality of the situation.

Life goes on.. the second job I was working at the time.. became my primary
job, and I still hold the position over 4 years later, as a very satisfied
employee who loves his job. Look to it as a learning process, an experience,
and keep moving on til you find the job or come up with your own that will set
you up for however long you need.

------
1_listerine_pls
The reason?

