
Chinese police use facial recognition tech to arrest suspect at a pop concert - isostatic
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-43751276
======
swalsh
I have a friend who is a private investigator. He mostly films people
committing insurance fraud. His stories are amazing. My favorite was a guy who
was supposedly not able to walk, but my friend had stalked the guys facebook,
and saw that he was planning on attending this festival with thousands of
people. Probably lots of walking. The trick was finding the guy. So he went to
the parking lot and quickly tracked down the guy's car (before he was a PI, he
repossessed cars, he's a pro at finding cars). After that, he went to the info
desk and told them the guys car's lights were on. They made a quick
announcement, and he went back to the parking lot to watch. Dutifully his
target came back, looked, shrugged his shoulders, and then went back. My
friend spent the rest of the night filming the guy walking, jumping, having a
good time.

He tells me the low tech ways are the most effective :\

~~~
mlrtime
Interesting story and his method is effective. However it is not efficient, he
can only track one guy a day, possibly a week.

~~~
wiz21c
His methods are efficient under the constraint of "not resorting to mass
surveillance". I'd feel better if that constraint continued to exist.

~~~
pythonaut_16
I think that's the point they're trying to make.

It's already easy to track someone down but it requires manpower, which limits
the scope of tracking and requires the tracker to have a real motivation.

What's scary about mass surveillance is tracking of anyone and everyone for
any reason at any time with very little required effort.

------
isostatic
The bigger question is why are China advertising this

1) Was the man actually caught by someone acting undercover and they want to
protect the agent's identity with plausable deniability

2) Does the system not actually work very well (say a 1 in 100k hit rate), but
they want people to think that if they are wanted, they can't hide, so they'll
either turn themselves in, or be less likely to do the (unspecified) crime in
the first place

3) Is there pressure that this project is overrunning/overbudget and they need
a PR win to keep those higher up in the government happy

~~~
coldtea
Or, you know, 4) the project works very well, and they want to advertise it
and instill some fear in people...

~~~
fredley
And/or sell the system. Plenty of regimes out there that would love this
capability.

~~~
alex_duf
That would be my guess. It was probably expensive so they are looking to sell
it.

------
codemusings
Great. New ammunition for homeland security departments around the world and
even better news for contractors.

On a side note: Now I had to research who Jacky Cheung (the artist in said
concert) is and was not disappointed:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrfp1DKyhKw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrfp1DKyhKw)

Three hours of Broadway style pop concert. Fascinating.

~~~
noxToken
I followed that YouTube link and currently skimming the performance. This is a
hell of a concert.

------
ilamont
It's only a matter of time before someone invents glasses, masks, hats, or
devices that are specifically designed to throw off these systems. Then the
surveillance state will up the game by referencing other data - height, shoe
type, clothing preferences, activated mobile phones, association with other
known people ...

~~~
sametmax
That's the geek attitude here, thinking it's a technical problem. But it's a
human one, and no amount of smartness will fix it.

If you have a surveillance state, it will not "will up the game by referencing
other data". It will simply make the gears illegal, and the price to pay
harsh. Now you won't dare wearing them and if you do, you are guilty even if
you are not a criminal, and tagging yourself as such, making it easier for the
police to find you.

~~~
Aunche
If China doesn't have the resources to stop all actual crime, they certainly
don't have the resources to stop people from wearing makeup, sunglasses or
hats.

~~~
michaelt
Depends how many people are avoiding facial recognition.

A large railway station can have 15 to 100 million passenger entries per year
[1]. That means if 0.1% of people hide from facial recognition, cops at such
stations could arrest 40-270 people per day. And with a suspect arrested, a
photo showing them in disguise, and a police witness, it's an open-and-shut
case.

That's way more cases closed per cop-hour than investigating complex crimes
like burglary, murder or rape. Just what you want, if your police chief is
judged on their clean-up/arrest rates.

And if order of fewer people than that are avoiding facial recognition? Then
you've got a surveillance state.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_railway_statio...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_railway_stations_in_Great_Britain)

~~~
Aunche
You don't need a disguise. You just need some accessories or make up to throw
off the neural network. Humans are still much better at facial recognition
than computers, but even they can get thrown off by make up. There's no way to
tell if someone is intentionally trying to avoid facial recognition or
regularly wear makeup or sunglasses.

------
hedgenetFT
I have a feeling that this technology will do to crime what fingerprinting did
back in the days.

Lots of crime being recorded on camera and data saved but we do not yet have
the ability to process that information. Soon though, a lot of people are
going to be arrested 10-20 years later for crimes that they never imagined
they could be caught for.

~~~
gormz
Doubt it. At least in the US, cctv sucks and doesn't have a whole lot of
coverage.

~~~
lostlogin
What it good cctv? Full coverage at good resolution? Or none?

~~~
gormz
sounds like a trick question

------
pasta
I'm not sure why this is news.

This is happening already in a lot of countries.

For example in The Netherlands we have facial recognition in street cars so
they can detect people who have a public transport ban. Since 2013.

~~~
tantalor
Read carefully to identify the source: _Police said the 31-year-old, who was
wanted for "economic crimes", was "shocked" when he was caught._

The source was Chinese police. So, in essence, this is propaganda, not news.

 _Propaganda: information that is not objective and is used primarily to
influence an audience and further an agenda, often by presenting facts
selectively to encourage a particular synthesis or perception, or using loaded
language to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the
information that is presented_

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda)

------
vain
Perhaps the time is right to start a business that sells facial plastic
surgery on a subscription model.

~~~
maze-le
Appearantly, makeup and hairstyle is sufficient... for now.

[0]: [https://cvdazzle.com/](https://cvdazzle.com/)

~~~
4ndr3vv
*Was sufficient in 2010

~~~
gm-conspiracy
Does this no longer work?

~~~
bsenftner
Not really, no. Unless a good portion of society chooses to walk around like a
Picasso all the time, those makeups just help identify.

------
QuelqueChose
Question that struck me immediately after reading this headline: As someone in
his 20’s who splits time living between western Europe and the US, just how
plausible is my fear of seeing something like this either here or in my home
country in my lifetime?

~~~
bsenftner
I am at ISC West right now, a global security conference held in Vegas every
year. I write FR and my company's software is in over a half dozen partner
booths, as well as our tech is the FR core for several others. Due to the
recent gun violence at Parkland, in Vegas, and on and on we are talking with
many, many school districts, large retail chains, city officials, private and
public parks, and reps of high net worth families who want FR systems up and
operating yesterday. You're gonna see FR blanket the United States. It has
already started.

~~~
wpietri
How good would you say the tech is? E.g., if Facebook put cameras outside a
football stadium with 60k people, how many people would they correctly
recognize? And how many false positives would be generated?

I ask because I'm wondering how much China's announcement here is a stunt that
goes well beyond the state of the art.

~~~
bsenftner
The tech is there, it works. The current hurdle is getting understanding
between the practical limitations of modern computers, the resolutions and
image characteristics of various cameras. Trying to use a 2K or 4K video
stream simply overwhelms the current generation of processors in the systems
'normal' organizations can afford. Plus those video streams are often up-
scaled and are lower resolution in their hardware, very wide angled, and
placed poorly for FR. Basically, the tech is there, but the practical aspects
of using FR with typical financial and logistical constraints is not there
yet. This practical aspect is just the normal learning curve.

Facebook's FR is nowhere but FB, forget it. There is a range of false positive
rates, depending upon how an FR system is employed. The best resource for the
state of the art is probably this:
[https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2017/NIST.IR.8173.pdf](https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2017/NIST.IR.8173.pdf)
(FYI, my work is vendor "L")

------
pasbesoin
When every second of your life is recorded and might have to be accounted for
-- what a burden.

And we already know how hard it can be, at times, to explain a moment of
strange-looking but innocent behavior to police.

All the more so if you are an unfavored, targeted minority (of whatever form:
Race, class, intellect, psychology...).

It's not just the recording. It's what people in power (of various sorts) may
do with it.

You know how you don't like it when a stranger in your vicinity seems to take
an unusual interest in you?

This. All the time.

Discretion gets driven out of the equation, when there's a permanent record
that anyone might use, at any time, rather than a momentary decision that
passes, by those in one's presence.

------
Fifer82
This is almost certainly a silly question, but if I can't ask here, then who
else will know?

Is there any methods out there which would let me fry surveillance cameras?
EMP is a thing, but I have no idea of how that works. Can I fit an EMP into my
pocket or do I need to drive a Truck worth of equipment? Is there some laser I
could use to damage the lens or digital "eye" in the camera for good?

I am not a criminal, my life isn't that exciting, but I was wondering what
tools are out there to combat surveillance cameras?

~~~
librexpr
Spray-paint, maybe?

~~~
brohee
Paintball markers are likely a better choice, but very high cameras will still
be out of reach. And then there is the issue of finding the cameras, but
something like [http://www.jet-protect.com/CS300Klanding.html](http://www.jet-
protect.com/CS300Klanding.html) can help...

~~~
Fifer82
I am also interested, it looks a cool machine but seems secretive. looks like
stage lighting laser.

~~~
brohee
Public documentation is hard to impossible to find.

It was discussed on Bruce Schneier's blog, on which the topic of camera
detection comes back regularly.

[https://web.archive.org/web/20100611052640/http://nexgadget....](https://web.archive.org/web/20100611052640/http://nexgadget.com/2010/03/22/jetprotect-
cs300k-long-range-counter-surveillance-camera/)
[https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/04/detecting_bei...](https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/04/detecting_being.html)

------
cJ0th
I wonder whether these systems do work when people wear masks to protect
themselves against smog.

------
oldpond
The bigger question is when will the rest of the world admit it uses the same
tech.

------
aszantu
I hope everyone will start wearing masks soon :( these news are really
unsettling

~~~
nfoz
It won't matter because we'll all spend our time in the virtual (VR) world
instead.

Civilization's about to get a whoooole lot more sci-fi!

------
amaccuish
Controversial and likely to be downvoted but what's the problem here? Surely
it's good that a law breaker has been caught? If you're in China, you play by
their rules, no?

~~~
onion2k
_what 's the problem here?_

This sort of automated policing forces people to live in fear. Having to live
by the letter of the law makes society paranoid, and that's distinctly
unhealthy. It makes it _very_ easy for a corrupt government to extend their
control over the people too. And lastly, _everyone_ breaks the law in minor
ways. You might speed in your car by a couple of mph, or jaywalk once in the
wrong place, or drop some litter in a controlled area. Just imagine living in
the knowledge that a mistake like that _will_ be caught, and you _will_ be
arrested for it (and maybe lose your job and livelihood because of that). This
is definitely a bad thing.

~~~
amaccuish
I mean, I live in fear now that going slightly over the speed limit I'll be
caught. You never know if the police are nearby, so in public you live by the
letter of the law. I don't understand how this changes that is all :)

~~~
fwn
Are you saying that you can not realize the idea that a full enforcement
capacity of the law will change people's relationship to law enforcement or do
you implicitly say that tsuch potential change is nothing to worry about?

Honest question as the first is just a capacity problem and the second (I
guess) a moral argument.

------
0xdada
Here is a relevant DEF CON talk that I found very interesting:

Surveillance Capitalism Will Continue til Morale Improves
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn5VN72ZjDE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn5VN72ZjDE))

------
alicewales
Couldn't they have written a better headline?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinaman_(term)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinaman_\(term\))

~~~
coldtea
> _Although the term has no negative connotations in older dictionaries,[1][2]
> and the usage of such parallel compound terms as Englishman, Frenchman and
> Irishman[3] remain unobjectionable,[4] the term Chinaman is noted as
> offensive by modern dictionaries and is no longer the preferred
> nomenclature_

In other words, BS creating an issue when there's none. Chinaman is fine.

~~~
rxhernandez
Yes, we should also start calling black people a term they used to be called
because it used to be okay. Why is it that some people lack the miniscule
amount of decency required to respect a person's or group's preferences on
what they like to be called? What kind of insignificant life does someone have
to lead to have the time or energy to question a small change in vocabulary
that relates to respecting another's preferences?

~~~
coldtea
> _Yes, we should also start calling black people a term they used to be
> called because it used to be okay._

Actually we're not all US-based here, and we don't have any historical baggage
with our black people like that.

Plus, instead of worrying about words, maybe people should focus on stopping
cop shootings, mass incarcerations, red-lining and other, non-trivial matters,
affecting black people?

And yes, one does preclude the other. One is hypocritical theater, the other
is actual change -- opportunity costs and all.

> _What kind of insignificant life does someone have to lead to have the time
> or energy to question a small change in vocabulary that relates to
> respecting another 's preferences?_

There was no "respecting another's preferences". It was mostly due to people
having insignificant lives (sic) and compensating by being worried about words
on behalf of another. Nobody actually asked the Chinese...

------
jgrahamc
Surely, "Chinese man" and not "China man". The latter sounds close to chinaman
which I think these days would be considered derogatory.

~~~
rangibaby
I think it’s no different to eg Florida man...

~~~
TallGuyShort
"Is there a term besides "Mexican" that you prefer? Something less offensive?"
\-- Michael Scott

------
pizzaknife
the bbc publishing an article with "China man" in it's title, meant to
identify someone of Chinese origin just made my day. Stay classy, bcc and
thanks for the grin

------
nwhatt
Shouldn’t the title be “Chinese man”

------
thanatropism
The fact that the comment section isn't littered with reference to "The Big
Lebowski" says a lot about HN. Much of it is very good -- serious discussion
undiluted by the tempting instant gratification of easy shots.

I still miss _some_ humor, but maybe it isn't worth it. Maybe its
_civilization ou barbarie_ , seriousness or eternal september.

