
Why Copenhagen Has Almost Perfect Water - xenophon
http://www.citylab.com/weather/2015/12/why-copenhagen-has-almost-perfect-water/421728/
======
aftbit
> Danes pay the highest water rates in Europe, at 6.33 Euros per 1,000 liters
> or 264 gallons (compare France at 3.35 Euros and Sweden at 2.73).

According to SFPUC[1] & WolframAlpha[2], the rate in a San Francisco multi-
family is around €1.80/kL for the first ~8.5kL/month. This is exclusive of the
meter flat rate and any other taxes and fees. Charging 3.5x as much for water
makes a lot of things possible.

1:
[http://www.sfwater.org/index.aspx?page=169](http://www.sfwater.org/index.aspx?page=169)

2:
[http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=5.58%24%2F748+gal+to+eu...](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=5.58%24%2F748+gal+to+eur%2Fkiloliter)

~~~
jhallenworld
Water around Boston (in the MWRA) is expensive: the sewer bill is included and
is paying for the Boston Harbor cleanup / Deer Island treatment plant: 7.58
Euros per 1000 liters.

This is converted from $513.54 for 2629 CU. FT. from my last quarterly bill.
Basically one year of water+sewer in a two-family house with all water saving
features is higher than the monthly rental rate for a two-bedroom apartment.

One more factoid: the pH of the water is 9.3: [http://www.belmont-ma.gov/dpw-
water-division/faq/what-is-the...](http://www.belmont-ma.gov/dpw-water-
division/faq/what-is-the-ph-of-belmont%E2%80%99s-drinking-water) I'm sure this
is to protect us from lead, but it makes the water gross.

~~~
aftbit
That's a good point - I also completely excluded sewer prices, which are
actually considerably higher than water prices.

Warning: no data, just intuition, in the rest of this comment.

I'm a bit confused by that, actually, since California is in a significant
drought and there is a lot of pressure to get people to cut back on washing
their cars and watering their lawns. I would imagine that, in a residential
setting, roughly 100% of water consumed for purposes besides the external use
that we're trying to reduce then goes into the sewer.

So why don't we just increase water prices and cut sewer prices equivalently?
You'd expect the average consumer's bill to go up only in proportion with the
amount of externally used water that they "waste". One potential complication
might be for houses with septic tanks, but those are probably fairly uncommon
in the area served by SFPUC. Perhaps, as a utility, they're constrained to
charge relative to their actual cost in those areas.

Edit: retric - thanks, that makes sense. I'm a renter here, so I don't pay a
water bill (except indirectly via rent).

~~~
Retric
Sewer is not tracked separately in most (all?) areas. It's just based off of
water used.

~~~
knughit
Seattle tries to estimate sewer use by billing it based on extrapolation from
winter water use (when lawn watering isn't happening)

~~~
_delirium
I've seen large homes in Texas that have two separate water hookups, each with
their own meter. One goes to the indoor faucets and pays water+sewer, and one
goes only to the outdoor faucets and pays only water.

------
throwaway13337
Copenhagen tap water is chalky - your glasses get cloudy when washed with it.

It's also not very good tasting to a lot of people including me.

To me, there is great water throughout scandinavia with the exception of
denmark because of the chalky soil.

~~~
Sami_Lehtinen
I would probably consider that water bad. Because in the water in Chicago, New
York and Washington is Ok. But in Miami it was just wasn't that great anymore.
Having chalk in the water is a sure way to run it's taste. Actually I'm quite
curious how it's possible that Singapore had good water. From geography alone
I would assume it's water would be bad.

~~~
s_q_b
Washington state, or Washington D.C.? Because D.C.'s water is actually so bad
it can be dangerous.

You can't even believe the water quality reports because the Federal agencies
distort them wildly. There was a massive scandal that resulted in both the CDC
and EPA being caught falsifying evidence.

See the WASA lead contamination scandal from 2001-2010, in which the EPA
falsely claimed that the water was safe, even as their treatment chemicals
were dissolving lead in pipes and joints. The CDC was charged with determining
the extent of the problem, and claimed that the high levels of lead were not a
public health risk, a claim that later investigators from independent
institutions stated were "scientifically indefensible."

 _Lead levels in the last decade were found to be as high as 83 times the
acceptable standard for drinking water._

The water comes from the Potomac, is heavily treated with chloramine (which
unlike chlorine dissolves lead), then runs through mains which were laid
generally between the Civil War and WWI, and finally into old 5-6 story
buildings (which due to height restrictions are often remodeled but seldom
rebuilt), almost all of which have lead in the plumbing.

The water is so bad that even the heavily filtered water at my home has a
terrible taste.

The government claims that the problem is "almost certainly resolved" after
the addition of further treatment chemicals, not including the removal of
chloramine, which frankly makes their claims implausible.

The Washington Post estimates that ~15,000 households in the city are still
receiving extremely high dosages of lead.

Oh, and the Potomac is essentially sludge downstream from the city. The
beautiful waterfront in Georgetown is actually the site of a CSO (Combined
Sewer Overflow), so that every time it rains, the city's untreated sewage is
dumped at the very location where the river is most used.

~~~
eli
To be fair, the people wgo still have high lead in their water is because they
have lead pipes on their property.

~~~
s_q_b
The lead is in the mains, and with most of the apartments in any decent
neighborhood approaching 1 million for a two bedroom, it's not like you can
purchase a building and replace the plumbing.

The problem is a government that injected a cheaper treatment chemical into
the water supply that dissolves that lead, and then lies about it to the
public.

~~~
eli
Do you have a link with more details? I was under impression vulnerable lead
mains were replaced

~~~
s_q_b
Dashing this off from the Christmas table, so as expected most immediate
Google results are the government pages. Here's the replacement description.
You'll notice that they're still actively replacing mains (at an
extraordinarily slow rate, essentially whenever a line needs service.) If
memory serves, the main line for half the city was laid during the Lincoln
administration.

I believe the average annual replacement rate is around 1%.

Replacement information:
[https://www.dcwater.com/lead/scheduled_replacements.cfm](https://www.dcwater.com/lead/scheduled_replacements.cfm)

------
jkot
I hate to spoil perfect record, but in 2011 there was E.coli alert in
Copenhagen: [http://phys.org/news/2011-08-copenhagen-
ecoli.html](http://phys.org/news/2011-08-copenhagen-ecoli.html)

Also EU has relaxed limits for nitrates, to the point it could hurt infants
and some aquarium fish. When some post-soviet countries were joining EU, our
nitrate limits were considered too strict, and we had to lower them.

~~~
dzhiurgis
I know in post soviet countries, due to nitrates, there were few programmes to
close traditional wells used in very small towns and drill deep wells instead.

~~~
spdionis
Provably depends on the region but there's no water as good as water from
traditional wells in rural areas here.

------
lbenes
The warn the residents after a bird dies, while on the other side of the pond,
we're dumping the entire 37 million gallons of their reservoir into the sewer
after a boy pees in it.[1]

Why can't we have a sane government that acts with logic and science? You know
like one that immediately closed factories that were linked to salmonella
outbreaks. Instead of punting for TEN YEARS while thousands of Americans get
sick.[2]

[1] [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-
canada-27069611](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27069611)

[2] [http://www.oregonlive.com/usda-
salmonella/](http://www.oregonlive.com/usda-salmonella/)

------
plorkyeran
Copenhagen's tap water is undrinkably foul. Perhaps it is safe to drink, but I
still had to buy bottled water simply due to the taste, and I find the idea of
_praising_ the strong flavor baffling.

~~~
danc86
"Undrinkably foul" seems a bit melodramatic. It certainly has that distinctive
minerally taste common to groundwater, which is quite noticeable to someone
like me (and maybe you?) who lives in a city with chemically treated surface
water. But in Europe using untreated or minimally treated groundwater seems to
be a common approach and Copenhagen's was amongst the most neutral tasting to
me. Iceland for example has much stronger tasting tap water.

~~~
_delirium
I don't think it has much to do with chemical treatment or not. A lot of U.S.
cities also have hard water; that depends mostly on the source, with
groundwater sources having more minerals than reservoir or lake sources. The
main differences in U.S. treatment are that it fluoridates and chlorinates the
water, it doesn't normally do demineralization. Also the fluoridation isn't
even really a difference in this case: Copenhagen's water supply naturally has
high levels of fluoride, similar to the levels that the U.S. adds.

But I agree Copenhagen's water is fine for drinking. I even like the taste.
What it's a problem for is fixtures and appliances, which chalk up _extremely_
fast, even compared to other areas I've lived with hard water. Showers,
faucets, etc. all needs to be "de-kalked" at least every week, ideally every
few days. Even simply leaving a glass of water out on the counter for one day
will start to produce chalk lines that take effort to remove. Keeping an
espresso machine operational is also a challenge, requiring pretty religious
usage of the cleaning cycle with a de-chalking tablet.

~~~
marcoperaza
Have you considered using bottled water with the optimum level of minerals for
your espresso machine?

~~~
madaxe_again
You kid, but it gets really frustrating when consumer goods die after two
months because your tap water is pretty much liquid chalk. Pour a glass, leave
it for an hour, there'll be a few mm of calcium carbonate precipitated out in
the bottom of your glass. Can't use it for ice (just crumbles - too
mineralised), coffee and tea end up with a skin, anything that quick-boils
water, like an espresso machine, is destined for the trash heap.

~~~
marcoperaza
I was being dead serious. A good espresso machine is a big investment and I
think it's common for people to use bottled water in them when the local tap
isn't ideal for taste or machine health.

I can imagine that kind of tap water being extremely frustrating. I've been
very satisfied with the tap water everywhere I've lived, but it sounds like
I'd be a bottled water guy in Copenhagen.

------
DrScump
"Public drinking water is now so clean that it’s better than bottled water,
says Mayor of Technical and Environmental Affairs Morten Kabell—and that’s
without chlorine or other chemical processing (only aeration, _pH adjustment_
, and filtration)."

How is pH adjustment not "chemical processing"?? How do they alkalinize water
without adding alkaline electrolytes (Mg,K,Na, etc.) in chemical form?

~~~
dogma1138
Treatments based on filtering and evaporation aren't considered chemical
processing.

You can play with the ph level of the water by simply filter or let it
evaporate.

------
danielovich
If you're used to bottled water, tap water is different in taste, of course.

But we don't drink bottled water in Scandinavia because our tap water is of
great quality, unlike a lot of other places.

The tap water in Copenhagen varies a lot. Depending on the plant your hooked
up too. It can be very chalky and it can be very smooth. Strangly enough this
is not throughout the rest of the country. Copenhagen water is probably the
worst compared to the rest of the country.

Jumping in the harbor is okay, but it's far from being as clear as going to
the beach.

------
mirimir
In the '80s and '90s, water in New York City was excellent. It wasn't even
chlorinated! But then the city lost the fight against development in upstate
watersheds :( So it goes.

~~~
awl130
new york tap is still amazing, compared to la

------
kristofferR
Much of the same could be written about Oslo. Just this summer the city opened
up a pretty big man made beach/bath in the middle of the harbor:
[http://www.sorenga.no/beliggenhet/om-
sorenga/sjobadet/](http://www.sorenga.no/beliggenhet/om-sorenga/sjobadet/)

How they cleaned it up is actually pretty interesting. Obviously they stopped
dumping waste in it in the first place. After that they placed a lot of ropes
and concrete structures all over the ocean floor, to give starfish and other
ocean creatures habitats. Those creatures did most of the cleaning, humans
just facilitated it.

Here's an article in Norwegian about it:
[http://www.aftenposten.no/viten/Fjernet-kloakklukten-fra-
Osl...](http://www.aftenposten.no/viten/Fjernet-kloakklukten-fra-Oslofjorden-
med-tjukke-tau-og-sjostjerner-8184545.html)

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abhinai
This link forces you to see an ad for 15 secs before revealing its content.
Shouldn't such links be penalized?

~~~
mirimir
No ad for me ;)

------
k_sze
Being a Hong Konger, I'm quite surprised that people have to worry about water
quality in Northern Europe.

I mean, Hong Kong is pretty much downstream from the Pearl River. That water
runs through some of the most industrialized areas of China. And if you think
I trust Chinese authorities for matters in environmental protection, you'd be
dead wrong. Yet, Hong Kongers generally don't worry too much about the water
quality around here. People eat the seafood caught around here without second
thought. People even swim in the Victoria Harbour. In fact, we hold cross-
harbour swim races in winter and nobody seems to get sick from the water.

All of this isn't to say that people are paranoid. I'm just surprised that
this is an issue.

------
dbcooper
When I lived in Lyngby, the water was hard and poor for washing shirts. Hardly
perfect.

------
mcv
This is not just true in Denmark; the Rhine used to be incredibly polluted
back in the 1980s, but now it's pretty clean. The Amsterdam canals are a lot
cleaner, though the inner city canals are not used for swimming, but I think
that's more an issue of facilities and awareness than of water quality. But in
the eastern harbor area, kids love to swim.

The increased water quality is one of the big successes of increased
environmental awareness that environmental organizations fought for in the
1980s.

~~~
jfoks
The Rhine does not flow through Denmark.

~~~
mcv
Absolutely true, but irrelevant. Or maybe relevant because it's my point.

------
Salamat
Upon visiting 3 years ago, I think water quality is felt in the food too,
which was awesome too, it made me over eat at breakfast and other meals, the
air quality made me walk for hours, I walked into the palace's square then
flew above it, it was incredible how friendly and nice it was.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrRnTBsofMk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrRnTBsofMk)

------
grandalf
Rivers used to be considered a form of free garbage/pollution disposal.

Even in relatively modern cities like New York, the rivers are still fairly
disgusting. I'd be quite surprised if existing environmental regulations are
being enforced there now.

------
graeme
Are the underground aquifers in question renewable? Also, how is it that the
aquifers don't require purification?

Sounds like a good system. Just wondering how long if it can last long term,
and if other places can adopt it.

~~~
ArleneBarlow
probably because the aquifer is naturally filtered through rock and is not
exposed to surface contaminants

~~~
tonfa
Yes, the ground acts as the filter.

There's a similar setup in Zurich, ground water is directly drinkable (iirc
they oxygenate it a bit for test), while the lake water goes through sand
filters (it is generally drinkable, but much better to remove particles).

Something weird I learned while visiting is that they put extra chalk on
purpose to prevent pipes from deteriorating in old buildings (they
experimented with lower amounts and had some troubles with leakage).

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jgalt212
Are Copenhagen cancer rates lower that other similar cities?

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googleir
As a Californian who spent a few months there: It is cold as hell, and I don't
have any clue why locals don't sense how cold the weather is.

