

Ask YC: Can lawyers and hackers be friends? - SamanthaG

In one of PG's essays on this site he talks about start-up hackers often feeling as though they need a co-founder with "business" knowledge and then says this is not a fundamental requirement for a start-up's success. I have the opposite problem, I am a former lawyer (UK) currently looking at a start-up but feel the need for a "hacker" co-founder for my venture to succeed. I know nothing about software code etc. Am I doomed without a hacker to work with me and is YC the wrong place for me to be looking? 
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yubrew
This question has been asked plenty of times before. Look up variations of
"business/idea guy needs hacker." But you should at least hack a bit with Ruby
on Rails so at the least you won't piss off your technical co-founder. If you
have deep domain knowledge, significant contacts, and a problem that is worth
solving, then getting a hacker co-founder should be pretty straight forward.

It is my personal belief that the team composition depends on the type of
opportunity and where the core competitive advantage will come from. If you
are a lawyer, and you want to make a paperless solution for legal firms, you
better believe you'll need a technology wiz. However, if the technology
component is honestly only a small part of the overall problem, then you can
perhaps look to getting an employee or contract out the tech work.

~~~
ptn
Why Ruby on Rails? Python is also worth learning.

~~~
yubrew
Learn some basic hacking in (insert functional language here). I'm not trying
to start a programming language flame war.

The point of the statement is to do just enough so that you don't drive away
potential technical cofounders. Basically make yourself more attractive as a
cofounder by avoiding the traps that many other non-technical cofounders fall
into.

~~~
ptn
Oops, my bad then. I thought you had a reason to recommend Ruby.

Learn some basic hacking in (insert a programming language (that's not VB)
here, whatever the paradigm). :-)

------
bootload
_"... I am a former lawyer (UK) currently looking at a start-up but feel the
need for a "hacker" co-founder for my venture to succeed. ... I know nothing
about software code etc. Am I doomed without a hacker "_

Hey Sam. You have 2 immediate problems. No hacking skills and no co-founder ~
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=80108>

    
    
        So if I was to be facetious  I'd say give up. 
    

But I also happened to have worked for a startup focusing on legal software
[0] where the principal was a) legally trained and b) a hacker of sorts. So
what you are attempting is possible. But not having a hacker background leaves
you in a position of weakness. Every time you are making a decision in
startups technology comes into play. So aside from not being able to build
your ideas you have to rely on others to tell you what is possible.

There is a flip side to this however. In domain specific industries such as
law technology. You can make lots of in-roads. The legal system in Australia
[1] is slow on technology uptake and archaic compared to other markets. So
anyone who can build products, services for the legal industry really has a
leg-up compared to pure technology companies.

So what do you do? Well you will have to get a technical co-founder. Depending
on the problem domain you are solving a technical co-founder will not be at
any greater advantage than yourself . Why? Because they will not have the deep
understanding of what is required. Your strengths will be that no matter what
technical solution any technical person creates, the stuffy, inherently
conservative legal market will probably not endorse an unproven product
without both legal provenance and precedence . [2]

So yes, without a hacker or someone who can turn your legal ideas into code
you will fail. Just as equally I imagine most hackers will fail (miserably)
without your expertise and pedegree. So I would not give up on building a
startup for the legal services or professionals. [3]

[0] Ringtail Solutions ~
<http://goonmail.customer.netspace.net.au/2005MAR202250.html>

[1] I imagine the English legal system is just as backward as the Australian
system.

[2] Ringtails secret weapon here was to create a "discovery" gathering tool
and casebook for legal cases. Then having a very close relationship with a top
Australian legal firm ( <http://www.bdw.com.au> ) and to not only get the
software to be used in a Royal Comission but also have the good skill (luck,
timing) to be on the winning side ~ <http://www.legaline.com/oct1999.htm> and
<http://www.canberra.edu.au/ncf/publications/emilyhilly1.pdf>

[3] Shots taken showing Lawyer desktops and the amount of information legals
have to juggle each day dealing with cases ~
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/31777304@N00/sets/1180151/>

~~~
SamanthaG
Thanks for taking tiem to reply. The humour cheered me up!

------
Zak
Hamsters and snakes can be friends[0]. Anything is possible.

Hackers and lawyers are often at odds because the hackers want to do something
interesting that could be a threat to someone else's profits. That person
hires lawyers to stop the hackers. Within the same organization, hackers and
lawyers are often on opposite sides because the lawyer's job is to avoid risks
while the hacker's job is to seek opportunity.

If you can avoid or limit the latter problem, you should be ok as far as
fundamental sources of conflict go. YC is a good place to look, but you'll
probably have to open up about your idea a bit more than most people want to
in order to attract quality hackers.

[0] <http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10903211/>

~~~
gigamon
I do not disagree with Zak.

However, stereotype has its limits in startups. My own experience is that most
formal training is counter-productive when it comes to running a startup and
all of us need to "unlearn" whether we are a lawyer or a hacker.

I summarized my observation as the following ...

"Anyone can be an entrepreneur but they must not have the mindset of a lawyer,
an engineer ("hacker") or a doctor.

First of all, there are always more than two sides to an issue and often the
right place is to be is in the middle - an option that a lawyer does not have.
Also, there is not always an answer to every question; or if there is an
answer, it might not be unique. So waiting for perfect data to arrive at a
perfect solution is a luxury that I don't have as an entrepreneur. If that
bothers me, then I should go back to being an engineer. Finally, as an
entrepreneur, I often have to shoot my patient (and I have)."

<http://www.lovemytool.com/blog/2007/10/vc-worst-enemy.html>

Hope this helps.

\--Denny--

Denny K Miu

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gigamon
Samantha:

In one of my earliest post, I wrote about what makes startup fail (or
succeed).

<http://www.lovemytool.com/blog/2007/09/why-startups-fa.html>

What I have learned in the last five years turns to be very different from
what I have learned in the five years before that. When there was a viable
market for startups (i.e., robust IPO and M&A opportunities), the limitation
often had to do with money. But when there is no market (i.e., no liquidity)
for startups (as it is now), success has to do with a viable market for the
product.

So it seems to me that it doesn't really matter if you are a lawyer or a
"hacker", as long as you are the "surrogate" customer and knows intimately
what your targeted customers want and what their pain points. Then having a
"hacker" as a partner is important only so far as he/she will be the one to
implement the product idea and is in fact, quite "interchangeable".

Good luck.

\--Denny--

Denny K Miu

~~~
SamanthaG
Thankyou too.

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ptn
Yes, a start-up without a guy that kicks ass coding is doomed. Start-ups
provide people with better technology, so it would make sense to know a little
about stuff like software/servers/internet. Actually, all other things being
equal, the start-up with the strongest technology base will eat up the others.

No, YC is not a bad place to look for people interested in starting a start-
up. Just beware, because the word 'hacker' is overused in this place.

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DaniFong
Maybe you have a friend from high-school or something whom you know to be
really, really smart? Maybe you know someone whom you know could hack, or at
least someone whose opinion would count who could help you search for a
cofounder.

