
Losing a credit card due to automatic user behavior - manume
https://jenny.berlin/2015/09/24/how-to-lose-your-credit-card-due-to-automatic-user-behavior/
======
Morendil
As far as I can tell France universally uses "Flow A" (get your card back
first, then your cash). When I started using ATMs, in the late 80s, I remember
that "Flow A" and "Flow B" were about equally common, then in a relatively
short span of time all the banks switched to A.

It surprises me, reading about it now, that it could be different in any other
part of the world. That Flow A is the correct solution is not obvious, but it
should be obvious to anyone who's studied human behavior and human error,
which should be anyone involved in the design of ATMs. The form of "goal
fixation" Jenny mentions is a very common pattern in human errors.

~~~
systoll
It surprises me that a flattened out workflow like
[http://i.ytimg.com/vi/luu3_y2MWGQ/maxresdefault.jpg](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/luu3_y2MWGQ/maxresdefault.jpg)
isn't widely used. There's a very strong 'default' use of an ATM, and the
conventional workflow does not optimize for it at all.

~~~
manume
I guess a machine like an ATM has be usable by 100% of the population,
including people who get easily confused by more than two options/buttons, so
usability has to be sacrificed for simplicity to a certain degree.

~~~
dzhiurgis
My mother is like this. She is used to card-then-cash flow. Once she was using
ATM abroad with me helping her (because it's in english). The moment card came
out she turned to me with frantic face asking "where's the money?!?". She
generally distrusts ATMs.

I once lost my card due to cash-then-card flow. And once left cash in card-
then-cash machine. Bank did returned it though.

------
Animats
Bank of America switched years ago to "Insert card, remove card, enter PIN,
take money, take receipt." Capturing invalid cards, while often done with
early ATMs, turns out not to be all that useful as a fraud prevention measure.
It's not required by the current PCI standard for ATMs.[1]

There's also an attack on ATMs called the "Lebanese Loop"[2] which requires
that the ATM try to retain a card. So there's a security problem with
retaining cards.

[1]
[https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/pdfs/PCI_ATM_Security_G...](https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/pdfs/PCI_ATM_Security_Guidelines_Info_Supplement.pdf)
[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_loop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_loop)

~~~
gpvos
How would that work with modern chip-based cards? As far as I know, you cannot
complete the payment at all if the chip is not available.

~~~
kiallmacinnes
When using a Chip+PIN card in the US recently, I had to insert, remove, insert
again, enter PIN, take card, take cash.

It took two of us two ATMs and about 15mins to figure it out ;)

~~~
Tiksi
Mostly off topic, but I can't seem to find the answer online:

Does anyone happen to know what the difference is between 6 contact and 8
contact chips? I have an older travel card that has 6 pads, and a recently
issued card that has 8 contact pads. Are they inter-operable? I've only used
the chip and sign twice so far, both with the newer card.

------
phaemon
The author is mistaken about people always waiting for their money from an
ATM. I've seen people take their card and leave the machine before the money
comes out. I'm pretty sure I've done it myself at least once, when I was
thinking about something else.

~~~
vidarh
But generally the negative effect will be lower: You'll lose your money if
there are people coming after you that are dishonest enough to take the money
only. Otherwise it'll get pulled back in. You'll still have your card.

~~~
morgante
I'm not sure I agree. I'd much rather lose a card than money.

------
alister
In terms of ATM struggles for foreign visitors, Brazil really holds the
record. The workflow requires you to insert your card twice (at least for
Banco do Brasil). It goes like this:

Insert card -> Take card (no PIN entered yet) -> Choose account & amount ->
Enter PIN -> Insert card _again_ -> Take card -> Take cash

Also, most banks in Brazil have ATMs that DON'T give cash right beside ATMs
that DO give cash. The ones that don't give cash are meant for deposits,
balances, payments, and transfers, but the GUI is otherwise identical, i.e.,
they display a cash withdrawal button even though they aren't equipped for
cash! "If you then proceed with a cash withdrawal, the machine will hold onto
your card for several minutes while making dispensing noises and finally
return your card without giving any cash or receipt."[1]

[1]
[http://brazilsense.com/index.php?title=Bank_cards_and_ATMs#L...](http://brazilsense.com/index.php?title=Bank_cards_and_ATMs#Look_for_the_word_Saques)

~~~
explorerjenny
Wow, that sounds like a complete UX disaster!!! In Germany we also have
machines where you can’t get cash, but each machine usually has a sign that
tells you what you can do with it and they also have different keyboards.

------
_0ffh
Unfortunately I can't provide a reference, but I distinctly remember reading
that the user flow at German ATMs is specifically designed to minimize
forgotten card incidents.

~~~
manume
Interesting, if you (or someone else) has any source for this, I'd love to
read it! I'd say that _ALL_ ATMs should be designed to minimize those
incidents though... :)

~~~
joshschreuder
I actually had this exact thought. There's some good discussion on my UX
StackExchange question about it:
[http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/23462/why-dont-atms-
gi...](http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/23462/why-dont-atms-give-you-
cash-before-your-card)

~~~
explorerjenny
Thanks for the link - there are some really interesting comments!

------
Avernar
Some ATMs in Canada do make you take your card first before dispensing the
money if it's not your last transaction. Others display a "Remember to take
your card" message. Others have a beep and flashing light near the card slot.

There really is no standard.

~~~
zyxley
For what it's worth, every ATM I've ever used here (a major city in the US)
has made you take the card back before continuing the transaction.

That said, they've all used a "insert card -> remove card -> enter PIN ->
perform transaction" flow rather than the "insert card -> enter PIN -> remove
card -> perform transaction" flow mentioned in the article.

~~~
manume
Interesting! We've noticed the behaviour described in the article at several
ATMs in Montreal. Maybe a Québécois thing?

~~~
ar0
That would make sense, as I have noticed the same thing in Québec City and was
rather confused about it. For me, returning the card first makes so much sense
that I wondered how people could implement this differently. A lot of people
will grab the cash, their brains will subconsciously tell them "I have what I
came here for" and they will leave - without their card.

I see really only one potential advantage for doing it this way: you can
provide other transactions after dispensing cash. So you could get some cash
and then _afterwards_ check your balance, for example, without having to re-
enter card and PIN code. With the "international model", cash withdrawals are
always the last transaction in the series as the card will always be withdrawn
as part of the transaction. Nevertheless, I would judge this "convenience
factor" as far less important as the protection against forgotten cards.

But maybe someone here works in the Canadian banking industry and has some
clues? Maybe the recording of the withdrawal transactions works differently
and the ATM needs the card for a short period after the money has been
dispensed? I don't know...

~~~
manume
Yes, multiple (trans)actions in one session are a use case where it would make
sense to keep the card until the end. I'd say it would still make sense to
return the card before the cash and have the user insert it again - a small
inconvenience for the few users that want to do multiple actions but probably
a big decline in forgotten cards.

------
t0mas88
Interesting, in the Netherlands almost all ATMs work in the same way as
Germany, take the card first before it gives you the money.

However the other part about paying a lot in cash seems strange to me? And a
fee on card payments while cash withdrawal is free if the exact opposite of my
Dutch card. Paying in shops is free, cash withdrawal within the country is
also free (not sure if all banks do this), but taking cash from an ATM abroad
costs a small transaction fee.

~~~
claudius
The debit card of Berliner Sparkasse works that way (paying in shops and
domestic, Sparkasse-owned ATM is free, taking out money abroad isn’t).
However, you can’t pay too much with that debit card outside Germany, so they
have this “travel pack credit card” – taking out money with it abroad is free
(if the ATM allows it), but using it otherwise still incurs a transaction fee.

~~~
psykovsky
Don't forget the fee they take if your account and the money you withdraw are
different currencies. ;)

~~~
germanier
Usually such German cards use the Visa/Mastercard foreign exchange rate for
ATM transactions (no extra fee) and POS transactions (plus currency conversion
fee, but no additional fee for using abroad).

~~~
manume
In Sweden (and possible in other countries) the ATMs let you choose whether
you want to let the ATM (or bank that the ATM belongs to) do the conversion
from Euro to Swedish Kronor or your own bank. If you pick the latter option,
your bank might charge you for the conversion, I never had the case that the
Swedish bank charged for it.

~~~
germanier
This is known as "dynamic currency conversion" and gives you a much worse deal
than letting them charge you in a foreign currency (even when your bank has
high fees). The way they do it is by offering a really bad exchange rate. In
fact, the Swedish bank charges you for that, it's just hidden in the exchange
rate.

~~~
manume
Oh really? I never bothered to check the exchange rate. Good to know, I'll let
my German bank do the conversion from now on!

------
alister
One solution to the problem of user flow A vs user flow B is to dispense the
cash and return the card _simultaneously_ and _together_. The "together" part
is admittedly difficult to engineer but perhaps the card slot could be placed
just above the cash dispenser, so both are in your line of sight.

~~~
manume
Good idea! If both the money and the card could be taken in the same movement,
that would make it very convenient.

------
lexicality
I went to Japan a couple of years ago and one of the ATMs we used had an
internal conveyor system of some kind, which resulted in it ejecting the card
with the cash and receipt simultaneously from the same slot. I've always
wondered why those weren't more standard, it seemed much more efficient.

~~~
zeeZ
Most Japanese machines I've encountered would also throw a fit and beep and
yell at you if you left something in a slot for more than a second. I don't
recall any German ATMs audibly remining my of my inefficiency.

------
JulienSchmidt
I lost my (German) credit card exactly the same way in Bangkok. Unlike the
author, I never received my card back and had to order a replacement card,
which takes ages to ship to the other side of the world. Never travel without
a second credit card.

------
0xdragon
Hey, could you share some information on how do you make those awesome
graphics? :)

~~~
manume
My girlfriend (the author) is out hiking right now. :) She uses Illustrator
and Sketch AFAIK. You can see more of her work on her profile:
[https://www.jennylettow.com/](https://www.jennylettow.com/) Feel free to
contact her via email to ask for details!

------
ColinWright

        Website is offline
        No cached version of
        this page is available.
    
        Error 522
        Connection timed out
    

I'm commenting because I want to come back and find this later, but I don't
want to upvote without reading, and I don't have a unified bookmark list, so
bookmarking won't help if I subsequently use a different machine.

 _Edit: Now read it - thanks for the cache reference_

~~~
manume
Sorry for that... working on getting it back up right now!

~~~
manume
And we're back!

~~~
morgante
Not for long it seems.

~~~
manume
I had to take down the server for a minute to install a WP caching plugin, it
should be back up soon!

------
manume
I had to take the server down for a minute to install a caching plugin...
check back soon!

