
Work in Silicon Valley and Spooked About Trump? Canada Wants You - kushti
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-01/work-in-silicon-valley-and-spooked-about-trump-canada-wants-you
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n00b101
What exactly do they propose is the incentive for founding a startup in Canada
instead of just doing it in the US? It can't be Waterloo because those grads
don't want to stay here, as things stand (brain drain effect). It can't be the
weather, or taxes. It definitely isn't the investors, Canadian investors are
notoriously conservative when it comes to new ventures (unless your business
is to dig a new hole in the ground and pull out rocks). It isn't the cost of
living, the average price of a home in Toronto is $1M. The only support for
startups is a decades old tax credit program called SRED which requires you to
domicile your company as a Canadian owned private corporation (e.g., no
Delaware corporations) and it is notorious for being beuraucratic and it
clearly favours larger established companies over true startups. The
government has failed miserably at incentivizing startups. This latest pitch
seems to be based on nothing more than dusting off the old canard of Canada
being more "multi-cultural" than the US, and using Donald Trump to attract
startup entrepreneurs? This coming from the institutions that gave us Stephen
Harper and Rob Ford? These gimmicks are more of an indication that they're not
serious abot incentivizing startups, they are just trying to score political
points at home.

~~~
altotrees
My uncle is an engineer in Toronto, and often speaks positively of the startup
scene in parts of Canada. I know Waterloo loses quite a few grads to the Bay
Area and other major U.S. cities, but haven't some companies actually
relocated to be closer to the scene there? I am thinking Pivotal Labs and
Google off the top of my head.

I am genuinely curious on your take, since you seem to have direct knowledge.
I have seen many people say things in the same vein, but also hear positive
things from people in Canada and outsiders as well.

~~~
gavingmiller
I can speak a bit for western canada; Vancouver has seen many of the
larger/top companies open offices: Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, etc. so plenty
of jobs to be had there. I live in Calgary and have seen many peers move to
Vancouver for better job prospects.

Re: SRED credits - I've been a part of the application process twice.
Documentation can be a bit cumbersome, but not much more than 5 minutes
summarizing the weeks work in a spreadsheet (for each employee), and tracking
their hours spent on related tasks. Add in source control and the numerous
artifacts that software devs come up with, means low amount of effort for high
payout. And by high payout, I'm talking 1-2 devs salary in a 10 dev shop. We
also hired a consulting company that specialized in SRED applications which
saved us a ton of overhead. Cost 10-20% of payout, but was worth not having to
deal with the application and/or any audits had they occurred.

~~~
Grishnakh
>I live in Calgary and have seen many peers move to Vancouver for better job
prospects.

Where do they live? Even a crack house in Vancouver costs $1M. Vancouver has
probably some of the most expensive real estate in the entire world now.

~~~
gavingmiller
One friend is in a townhouse in North Vancouver. Rented for a while, then
bought. Real-estate is stupid silly there. I've also heard talk of people
moving to Victoria as an alternative.

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maxsilver
I love the idea of relocating to Canada. But every time I've looked into it,
companies seemed to only pay entry level wages for experienced positions
(80K-100K CAD which is 60-75K USD), while having high coastal-type housing
costs (500K - 1M CAD, which is 400k to 760k USD)

Sure, greatly reduced health care cost. But even accounting for that, it still
seemed like a big financial setback.

Unless I'm missing something, it seems like if you could afford a home in
Toronto, you might as well sell it and buy a house in NYC or SF or Boston.
Your cost of living would be about the same, but your income would jump
roughly 2x or higher.

EDIT : For example, Sortable is the Canadian company in the article. Their "3+
year experience" Software Engineer position on their website maxes out at 100K
CAD, a salary 25% lower than Amazon's Seattle _interns_ make (~100K USD).

~~~
jordigh
Downtown Toronto is probably the most expensive place for housing. The
salaries are about comparable elsewhere in Canada, with much cheaper housing
options elsewhere in the GTA, or in Mtl or Vancouver.

I wouldn't say I'm making bank in Mtl, but my salary is comfortable and gives
me slack. Most people I know start buying homes here in their mid-30s.

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jbob2000
No, we don't want people who, at the first sign of trouble, pack their bags
and leave. If you don't like Trump, stay there and fight for your home.

~~~
pmoriarty
The problem is that this is far, far from the first sight of trouble in the
US. I'll spare the detailed history lesson, but Trump would not be the first
right-wing, reactionary President in the US, and there are plenty of other
reasons to leave. Many in the US feel helpless to affect politics for a
variety of reasons. Trump may be, for some, more of the proverbial straw that
broke the camel's back.

~~~
jbob2000
Oh please, every country has problems, the US is just in the limelight because
they own like 90% of the world's media. Canada just kicked out a right-wing
government that held power for almost 10 years. The people who would leave for
greener pastures would come to Canada, find that it's not so green, and head
for the next "fad".

~~~
Grishnakh
Do you want highly-productive knowledge workers in your country to boost its
tech economy or not?

If not, then fine, we'll find another country that wants to greatly improve
their tech sector. You don't want anything like the economic juggernaut that
is Silicon Valley in your country? That's your choice, but seems pretty
shortsighted to me. Most countries actually want to import people who grow
their economy a lot and contribute a ton in taxes without draining their
social-welfare systems.

~~~
jbob2000
Wow, get off your high horse. 50% of Canada's population hold a degree and
more, we are quite knowledgeable, thank you very much. If this is the kind of
elitism we would get if the Silicon Valley-ites were to return, then you can
fuck right off.

~~~
Grishnakh
Ok then, where's your Silicon Valley? Where are your world-leading tech
companies? Do you have anything at all you can point to as world-leading, like
we do with Google, Amazon, Intel, etc.?

Hey, if you're happy being a backwater full of degreed people who don't
actually produce anything that anyone's ever heard of, that's fine. If you
enjoy having Silicon Valley-level housing prices but no Silicon Valley-level
jobs or economy, that's fine too.

~~~
imtringued
> who don't actually produce anything that anyone's ever heard of You know I
> could make the same argument that I don't spent any money on these "world
> leading tech companies" their value to me is effectively zero.

Is zero value somehow supposed to impress me?

~~~
Grishnakh
This is rather stupid. How exactly did you write this post without using an
Intel or AMD CPU? (Both American companies) Do you never use any search
engines? (Google and Bing(MS) are American, as is DDG, which just reuses
results from one of those two.) You don't have an iPhone (this is quite
possible, as Samsung/LG/HTC/etc. are not American)? And how are you getting by
without using American-made software from Microsoft or some variant of Linux
(which is largely contributed to by both Red Hat, an American company) and
various other American contributors on the Debian side? Even if you don't
spend any actual money directly on some of these things, you're certainly
deriving value from them.

~~~
escape_plan
It's rather unfortunate that the same companies you talk about are keeping
their money in tax havens, they hire foreign born workers and most of the
manufacturing they do happens in China or Asia. In the end a non college
educated American loses to this high skilled labor and cannot afford to live
in Silicon Valley which has a broken real estate system, people commute from
far distances and BART is in end-of-life stage.

~~~
Grishnakh
You're absolutely right about all that. I never said it was perfect here, and
in fact things are definitely getting worse in many ways.

However, we're comparing present-day US to present-day Canada, and I'm not
seeing any advantages to living in Canada, except for living around friendlier
people. Economically, there don't appear to be any advantages at all to
professional tech workers, only big disadvantages.

If you think Silicon Valley has a broken real estate system, have you checked
out the real estate situation in Vancouver? Personally, I'd love to live in
Vancouver, but there's no way I'm going to get a job there that pays enough
for me to buy a house that costs several million dollars (CAD), given that
even crack houses there cost $1M.

At least here in the US, there's still a lot of cities besides SV where
there's a lot of tech jobs, the pay is really high for them, and the housing
costs are bearable.

~~~
escape_plan
Right but Silicon Valley is still the best place to live and own instead of
moving somewhere else, I know there's reverse immigration (Book: The rent is
too damn high or something), but are there good schools, good neighborhoods? I
am kind of spooked by just looking at this Election Campaign which has
revealed the dirty underbelly of this country to me. I would still consider
long term stability where I know the society is accepting, and I think down
the line the economics can be improved if you think about it, because there
are good cities, well educated people, but lack of enterprises and small
business/startups to employ these people. I saw 500 startups just open a 30Bn
fund for Canada and see small but solid indicators that things are changing.
Finally! [http://qz.com/656320/dear-prime-minister-trudeau-a-modest-
pr...](http://qz.com/656320/dear-prime-minister-trudeau-a-modest-proposal-
from-a-canadian-american/)

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pcmaffey
Hah, I was denied access to Canada for a 3 day business trip to meet with a
client.

So we applied for a visa, and that was denied because there's no category for
software developer or designer or PM in NAFTA. And even if there was, I would
have required an engineering or graphic design degree to be eligible...
without doing a costly analysis to make sure no one else in Canada could do my
job.

Agreed with above comment about this being a gimmick.

~~~
jordigh
Business trip, NAFTA? I guess you're Mexican? I don't think you need a visa
otherwise. Trudeau said he would work on lifting the visa requirements for
Mexicans. So, perhaps this problem will resolve itself soon.

[http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/justin-trudeau-proposes-
lift...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/justin-trudeau-proposes-lifting-
mexican-visa-requirement-1.3122651)

In the meantime, you probably can get an ordinary tourist visa? I don't think
you really need to go through the NAFTA categories or get a Labour Market
Opinion for a 3-day business trip, do you?

~~~
pcmaffey
US citizen. There on business (client meetings), denied access for visitor
visa. Applied for work visa, denied because didn't fit NAFTA categories.

I should have said I was there for pleasure, but I was trying to be ya know,
honest. Now my passport is flagged for 7 years, so I better have a rock solid
vacation plans if I want to try to enter on a tourist visa.

~~~
bryanlarsen
US citizens do not need a visa to travel to Canada for business visits.
According to [1], client meetings are specifically allowed. You cannot do
'hands-on labour' though, so it can be a fine line that you must have crossed.

As a Canadian, I once travelled to the US to assist a client with integration
for a week. I got pulled into secondary questioning. He asked one question
about what I was doing in the States, and then spent a few more minutes
grilling me about what exactly the first level agent had asked me, how I had
answered, et cetera. I could tell he was preparing to ream out the first level
agent for wasting his time...

1: [http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/business-
who.asp](http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/business-who.asp)

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ap22213
I would love to help pump up the GDP at a new country. What I'm looking for:
Efficiently run government, low corruption, policies that encourage education
and health, and progressive expanded rights and freedoms. I'm in. But, based
on what I know about Canada, I don't think it's it.

~~~
caiob
Canada is the closest thing you will get to those goals without being trapped
in a boring isolated Nordic European country.

~~~
S4M
How about France and Germany?

~~~
realusername
French here, France is the complete opposite of an efficient government. The
bureaucracy is massive and everywhere. It's quite outside of the scope of this
topic but the short answer is don't create a company there.

~~~
S4M
I'm French as well (expat, though). What you say is true, but it strikes me as
a lesser evil than the ones that are plaguing USA: little social protection
and high cost of education among others.

~~~
realusername
Also expat on my case (London). Yes indeed I agree. My problem with the French
system is more the bureaucracy than anything else. I'm from the countryside in
a post-industrial area so it makes it even worse than in cities. I have a
brother who has a shop and honestly, it's impossible to manage the paperwork
nowadays, I don't want to put any anecdotes here because people won't beleive
me and I will probably be downvoted.

I think around ~70% of the shops in the area are close to bankruptcy and the
system is crashing really hard currently. If it stays like this, everyone will
be relying on some sort of black market to purchase goods in less than 10
years. While I guess main cities are still okay, things are not really working
anymore in remote areas.

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at-fates-hands
The insanity about this is HE'S NOT EVEN THE NOMINEE YET.

Considering how pissed the establishment Republicans are that he _might_ be
the nominee, they're all betting on an open convention followed by some
combination of a Walker, Cruz, Rubio, Ryan ticket.

I can't believe how people have lost their minds and he most likely won't get
the amount of delegates required to get the nomination outright before the
convention in June. Clearly whatever he's doing, he's struck a HUGE nerve
somewhere, because there is a fuck ton of panic in the streets and it's still
very, very, very early in the process.

~~~
pmoriarty
Candidates like Trump often serve the useful purpose of making candidates that
would otherwise seem extreme look moderate. I'm almost surprised there isn't
some sort of loud-mouthed, extreme liberal anti-Trump candidate on the
Democratic side to make some of their other candidates look more moderate by
comparison.

~~~
beeboop
Taking extreme positions doesn't win elections unfortunately. Trump has a few
of his own extreme opinions and I feel relatively confident he's going to lose
pretty bad to Hillary because of it. Hillary is the master of no extremes.

~~~
pmoriarty
_" Hillary is the master of no extremes."_

That really depends on where you're coming from, politically. Compared to some
places in the world, the most "liberal" and "socialist" Democrat (no, not
Hillary) is already a right wing extremist. For starters: She's a hawk. She
and her husband deliberately came in to office to push the already right-
leaning Democratic party further to the right. She's for enlarging the already
massive surveillance state. These are not moderate positions to a lot of
people. Maybe moderate compared to Trump.

Regarding whether a moderate or an extremist is more likely to win, there's
little evidence that Presidential elections get decided on political
positions. Sadly, personality and style are far more significant.

~~~
Grishnakh
I disagree about her being moderate compared to Trump. I fully intend to vote
for Trump if it comes down to a race between Trump and her, because in my
view, Trump is far more moderate than Hillary. As you said, Hillary is a war
hawk, and I believe she'll start another war in the middle east. Trump, by
contrast (despite all his crazy rhetoric about building a wall etc.), has
preached non-intervention for the most part, not starting unnecessary wars,
and really pissed off the Republican establishment by calling Bush's Iraq war
"stupid". I don't believe he'll start a needless war. He might do a bunch of
other things, but to me that's a big enough factor that I'll vote for him over
Hillary. Add in the plain fact that she's sold out to Goldman Sachs and the
private prison industry and Trump really looks quite reasonable by comparison.

Of course, my preferred choice is Bernie, but with how plainly and obviously
corrupt the DNC is, I don't have a lot of hope of him getting the Dem
nomination and running in the general election. Maybe things will go totally
haywire and both Bernie and Trump will get pissed and run as independents
after the establishment railroads them both, and then we'll have a 4-way race.

------
pbourke
I saw the Sortable ad in my Facebook feed. Good for a few laughs. Presidents
come and go, but the opportunities in the US have been consistently better
than Canada for decades now in tech.

Canadians come to the US for a better standard of living, comparatively more
affordable housing (yes, even in the Bay Area!), a diverse and booming job
market with interesting opportunities and a less conservative startup culture.
None of that seems to be changing anytime soon.

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JMCQ87
Not even Trump would make we want to work in adtech.

~~~
cabernal
This is true, a lot of startups (in the Toronto area at least) work on
ad/marketing tech, but if you look closely you can find places that are
working on interesting projects (WealthSimple, Quandl, TopHat)

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gist
Absurd. Even if for some odd reason you buy into the unproven idea that things
would be bad for what you do with Trump as President, moving to a new country
when someone might only be in office for 4 years is ridiculous and shows that
you act on emotions, not rational and logic.

~~~
Grishnakh
I'm sure someone said that back in 2000 just before Bush got elected. Bush's
reign has had a huge effect on the American economy and culture, lasting far
longer than just 4 years.

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neom
Wonder what visa they want us on. (I'm Canadian, but still)

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jnordwick
I'd love to create a statup in a bureaucratic, third-world country. Canada
sounds perfect!

(preparing for modbomb oblivion)

