
The Plight of the Introvert [A Rant] - vgnet
http://blog.edwardamsden.com/2012/03/plight-of-introvert-rant.html
======
overgard
Introversion and extroversion always seem to have hazy definitions, but one I
like better than the popular social model of how people are "energized" is
this:

Rather than extroversion being about whether a person is socially "energized"
by groups or not, it's really about how much stimulus a person can accept
before their brain starts feeling saturated. IE, it's less about the social
aspect and more about being able to process stimuli in general. It's just that
social gatherings tend to provide a lot more stimuli (people are complicated!)

In this model, an introverted person is simply a person that becomes saturated
much more easily; and the reason they dislike crowds and other large
gatherings is just because the amount of possible inputs are tremendous and
need to be kept track of. An extroverted person might feel more comfortable in
these situations, either because they can process more stimuli, or more likely
in my opinion, because they're less sensitive to those stimuli. (I don't think
it's a coincidence that a lot of the introverted people I know tend to pick up
on subtle social cues a lot more readily than extroverts, and also tend to
emit more subtle cues).

As a person that's probably moderately introverted, thinking of it in terms of
"saturation" feels more natural to me. If I'm in a large group I don't so much
feel a loss of energy (unless I'm trying hard to be extra friendly); if
anything, when I reach a saturation point I'm at a higher energy level, I'm
just sort of "full".

I wish I could remember where I first read about this way of thinking about it
though and give some sources.

~~~
stray
I suspect you read about it while reading some MBTI-related stuff. INTP?

~~~
overgard
Haha yep, INTP exactly. Certainly sounds likely, I do have some books on that
stuff.

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personlurking
I'd be interested to see how many INTPs are HN readers. I, for one, am one.

~~~
tkahn6
Someone does a poll every once and a while. Here are two:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=946249> (858 days ago)

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1675197> (562 days ago)

~~~
mattmillr
Thanks for those links. The analysis on the older one is really interesting
Most significantly, 76% of HNers were 'NT' types, compared to 11% in the
general population.

Since HN has grown quite a bit in the last few years, I'd be interested to see
if we've drifted closer to the 'norm' or if we're still dominantly NT
Rationals.

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analyst74
I think this classification of introvert/extrovert personality is a little
self-fulfilling.

See, I have always believed myself to be introvert, despite what people tell
me. I find all these different ways to classify someone as introvert, find one
or more that fits me, and I say "see, I'm introvert!"

Until one day, I just randomly started to think the behavior of my ex
(cough..), who is considered to be extrovert by everyone, including herself.
And guess what, she also gets tired of groups at times, and she also wants
quiet time at home, or any other classification of introvert I've read.

What I now believe is that, introversion/extroversion is a state of mind,
rather than personality. Most people are both introvert and extrovert, only at
different times. Some may be extrovert more often, others introvert more
often.

I have no scientific proof of this, but it seems to fit with what I observed
of myself and people around me.

~~~
tobtoh
I think you have taken a couple of assumptions and drawn the wrong
conclusions.

First, introversion/extroversion describes a characteristic of how you
generally prefer to be 'energised' (introvert: on your own; extrovert: around
other people). Whilst the description is a binary one, the characterisation of
someone is not. If you ever do a Myers-Briggs test, the result you get back
will often place you on a sliding scale of introversion-extroversion - when I
did the test I was on the border of the two (slight leaning towards
introversion).

So simply because your ex decided to have a quiet night in, doesn't suddenly
means she's an introvert. Unless one is an extreme introvert or extrovert, you
won't be solely displaying the one type of behaviour at all times.

Second, the 'state of mind' conclusion seems to be a bit of a leap of logic :)
Just because someone exhibits the occasional different behaviour doesn't mean
it's 'all in the head'. Would you argue that cancer suffer who have good and
bad days with their pain mean that their pain is caused by a 'state of mind'
rather than an actual illness?

Introversion/extroversion is not something you can 'think positive' your way
out. This is exactly the complaint of introverts who are tired of people who
think that 'if they just made more effort they wouldn't be so anti-social'!

~~~
rhizome
I have trouble with this "energized" word. I don't know what it means.

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Tichy
I think this is complete nonsense. I mean all those projections of what
"normal people" supposedly think about you if you don't enjoy partying in
large groups all the time.

First of all, nobody really cares about you (or anybody else), so nobody will
worry about you being antisocial or not. Secondly it simply isn't true that
most people want to party in large groups all the time.

You are setting yourself up for failure with your beliefs.

~~~
dasil003
Yeah I agree, I think what he's done is redefined introvert around his own
very specific and likely over-thought preferences.

What does ideal group size have to do with introversion anyway?

~~~
AznHisoka
Actually I resonated with what he said a lot. I'm a loner but I crave
interaction.. but not interaction in large groups, and I don't like talking
about trivial topics most of the time. My ideal interaction is with 1-2
others.

~~~
Tichy
I'm not even sure what the "interaction in large groups" is supposed to be?
Even on a party, usually you only talk to 1 to 3 people at a time. If you
don't like floating around the party like a butterfly, just find a comfy couch
somewhere.

I don't understand why the author and it's supporter are so bent on drawing a
black and white picture of other people, like either they enjoy large groups
or single interactions? What if most people "enjoy" both - larger groups are
usually just a tool for finding small groups to interact with.

~~~
AznHisoka
Talking to people in a party, vs really being one-on-one with them is
different for me. When you're in a party, I feel you have the pressure to talk
about "fun", casual topics vs deep discussion. Simply because of the context
of the situation.

~~~
dasil003
There are better parties out there my friend.

~~~
AznHisoka
I am not blaming the party, my friend.

~~~
dasil003
I am.

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ggwicz
I appreciate how this post doesn't posit that introverts "don't want to be
around people", like many articles and essays do. I'm an introvert and love
being around people; just not _all_ people _all_ the time. It's an important
distinction.

However, something in this article that I pick up, and I see it in other
writings, is that introverts like to think while extroverts don't.

Just as extroversion is dressed up in socially-positive words like "outgoing",
"friendly", "life of the party", etc., it seems like more and more
introversion-related articles are using equally seductive and over-the-top
words like "deep", "intellectual", "pensive", and more. Just pointing out that
a lot of extroverts aren't the former words, and a lot of introverts aren't
the latter words.

I just seem to notice this in articles about intro/extroversion. People keep
using words and terms to make it seem like there's a huge difference in
intellect, etc. between the two groups. I don't think that's true.

~~~
rizzom5000
IIRC there was some evidence of this found in research -- cited in "59
Seconds: Think a Little, Change a Lot". IIRC the study was focused on
characteristics of 'successful' people where 'success' was defined in terms of
societal achievements (e.g. monetary success, status). Ultimately, the gist
was that, among other personality characteristics, people who identified as
'introvert' were more 'successful'. This may have absolutely nothing to do
with intelligence, per se, but in my humble opinion; it probably does (not
saying this because I identify as 'introvert').

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MDCore
Another way I like to describe the difference between introverts and
extroverts is that introverts are energised by solitude, while extroverts are
energised by company. Introverts certainly want to socialise as much as
extroverts, but they then need to retreat to recharge, while an extrovert will
find alone time draining, and need to retreat to a social setting to recharge.

~~~
vgnet
Great way to sum it up, by that measure I'm a clear introvert. That doesn't
mean shy, quiet in gatherings or even unhappy in company of others, but group
time is exhausting and alone time is, as you say, recharge time.

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scythe
I imagine introvert/extrovert is simply an inadequate description -- for the
ways people want to use it -- of the ways people prefer to interact; after
reading a number of blog posts like this I'm increasingly convinced that the
reality is far more nuanced. There are more categories of social interaction
than "large group" / "small group" / "not at all"; you can talk about very
complex things, very simple things, personal things, impersonal things,
societal politics, clique politics, and so forth; people generally have
differing preferences with regard to different things.

The introvert/extrovert distinction was never meant to be a complete
description of someone's social preferences, but just a general way to
classify all of the crazy people that psychiatrists encountered back in the
early 20th century. MBTI tests can be suprisingly apt, but they aren't going
to tell you everything there is to know about yourself.

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serialpreneur
This resonates with me very well as an introvert who enjoys company but finds
large group very energy draining. I never thought that extroverts actually
find such activities energy gaining. Instead I have felt it was just me who
doesn't find large group dynamics enjoyable.

Here is a TED talk "Power of introverts" I recently enjoyed on this subject.

[http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/susan_cain_the_power_of_int...](http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/susan_cain_the_power_of_introverts.html)

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xarien
The problem I've always had with being an introvert is that many extroverts
think it's a curable disease. Furthermore, because I do behave as the blog
post describes, people often don't believe I'm actually an introvert. The
solution I've found is it's much more acceptable if I explain to people that
I'm an "ambivert", an introvert who has developed skills normally associated
with extroverts. At minimum, it gets people off my back...

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rchowe
I am a self-proclaimed introvert. I tend to think about small "mistakes" I
made socially and how I could have done better. However, I enjoy being around
people, just a small group of people all of whom I know. I like to be engaged
in a conversation, and if put in a situation with a large number of people
(such as a party or "social gathering") i will spend most if not all of the
time with the same people. It's not that I don't like people, it's just that
to connect with them I have to have a conversation with them of greater length
than happens at such social gatherings - and it just so happens that the
people who enjoy these conversations are other introverts, creating the
appearance of the introverts hanging out at the edge of the crowd and talking
with other introverts.

------
8ig8
I do believe in the idea that social interaction is energy draining for
introverts and the opposite, energy gaining, for extroverts. With all demands
a startup puts on a person, I can understand why an introverted founder would
decline social invitation for no other reason than being worn out.

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kmm
It always amazes me every time I find someone or something on the internet
that resonates perfectly with me. I can't stand being alone, it makes me
really depressed. But social events don't feel right either, they take a lot
of energy as the author says. What I feel best with varies and it's more
complicated than just a variation in time.

So what I mean is, he's probably right. Introversion and extroversion are no
dichotomy and probably even more complicated than a spectrum. I've heard too
many people say I'm an introvert while I feel am not just as this person has
heard too many say he's not an introvert.

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ginko
I consider myself introverted because being in a large crowd is very
exhausting for me.

But recently I found that the main problem I have with lots of people is that
the sound level gets so high that I have problems following individual
conversations. It takes me a lot of concentration to understand the person
next to me.

That's why I mostly avoid crowded or loud places, since I wouldn't understand
a thing anyway. I generally hear well, but seem find loud sound painful
earlier than other people.

Because of this, I wonder if hearing problems could be a cause of
introversion.

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fmapE
Hi guys!

I'm the OP. I don't have time to respond to everyone here, but let me just say
it's been quite gratifying to see the productive discussion this has
generated. I wrote this post late at night, after a particularly exhausting
group activity, hoping to thoughtfully react to my frustration. Whether or not
I managed that, these sorts of discussions are just what I was hoping for!

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HackerThrowaway
The article hit the nail on the head for me. Maybe someone can offer some
advice on my related plight?

I'm like many of you in the sense that I spend all day every day on my
computer -- I work in security, and I'm introverted. At the same time, I do
crave interaction, and I find that going to bars in my college town provides
me with social stimulation (I don't talk to Jersey Shore airheads). However,
as I am also a night owl, this is basically my only social interaction for the
day: the day doesn't seem complete unless I've talked to people. Therefore, I
have become an alcoholic, which has profoundly affected me psychologically,
and it's beginning to affect me physically as well.

The obvious solution to this problem is to find forms of socialization that
don't involve alcohol. But that's easier said than done: what should I do? I
have no hobbies and few other interests that don't involve books.

Real advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

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pron
A must read: Caring for Your Introvert, The habits and needs of a little-
understood group -
[http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/03/caring-f...](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/03/caring-
for-your-introvert/2696/)

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petercooper
Right on. This is why I try to be a speaker or help with organizing/running
events I go to, because a) I get a perfect excuse to be busy, b) I get a
perfect excuse to run off for a nap after speaking/chairing, c) people will
generally want to talk to me about my talk in depth, d) if it gets too heavy,
I can hang out in the speakers' room/similar instead.

d is quite a handy one. If possible, I try to find a way to tag on to people
in the speakers' room, because the atmosphere there is way better for
introverts, IMHO. Smaller groups, not noisy, people actually doing work, etc.
Luckily I'm _usually_ speaking or organizing so can do this, but it could get
a bit crazy if everyone tried this ;-)

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squadron
I wonder if introversion/extroversion are umbrella terms for a wide range of
meshing cognitive and personality traits.

For instance, we all default to a particular attentional style. To use the
actor Woody Allen as an example, he has a classic narrow-internal attentional
style (introspective, perhaps slightly neurotic) which suggests he's an
introvert, yet these traits works for him socially on many levels.

But is he introverted? I think he and many people transcend that label.

More on Attention Theory: [http://rejectiontherapy.com/control-your-reality-
like-a-tv-s...](http://rejectiontherapy.com/control-your-reality-like-a-tv-
set-howto/)

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EREFUNDO
A good mixture of extroverted and introverted personalities will be good for a
start-up team. The key is for the extroverts to know when to just shut up and
listen....lol

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ilaksh
Yeah.. you guys aren't "real" introverts. Real introverts are like me and have
practically no friends online or off, almost never go out unless they have to,
and do all of their social interaction by writing comments on random Hacker
News or reddit posts, rarely even seeing a username they recognize.

~~~
octotoad
My life in a nut shell right there. We should be friends...hmm, wait...maybe
not

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smsm42
Another one about introverts: <http://www.carlkingdom.com/10-myths-about-
introverts>

I like that one better :)

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rasper
What is this 'energy' is that people are extracting from their social
environment? And why are we holding off judging extroversion against
introversion?

I'm going to state for the record that introversion is best. Anybody who isn't
introverted has no kind of mental life.

~~~
EREFUNDO
Every extrovert is an introvert in some way. I have seen introverts become
extroverts in their comfort zones and have seen extroverts become introverts
in a new and unfamiliar environment or situation.

~~~
paulhauggis
I always thought I was an introvert, but I never had this energy problem
people are talking about after being social for a long period of time.

My problem was that I just couldn't get outside my comfort zone. After years
of forcing myself outside my comfort zone (which many people don't or can't
do), I don't really have a problem anymore.

One of the problems with being introverted is that you will probably get
passed up for promotions at most companies. you need to be social to move up
the ladder, even if you are a developer.

~~~
EREFUNDO
I remember reading a study done a few years back to figure out why many Asian
Americans were being passed up for promotions in their work place, despite
that they went to better schools and had many honors when they graduated
compared to their white co-workers. Initially people thought discrimination
was the biggest and only factor but the study showed that they tend to be more
introverted and would not ask for a salary raise or a promotion as much as
their white counterparts would. Success will not be handed to you in a silver
platter in the corporate world, sometimes you just have to go out there and
stake your claim.

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goggles99
The author has a strange view (and cares way too much) about what other people
think. Reminds me of myself in high school.

