
How The Art of Computer Programming was ruined for me - anuragramdasan
http://anuragramdasan.com/weblog/on-how-TAOCP-was-ruined-for-me/
======
reikonomusha
Like others here, as soon as I read the first couple of sentences, I mostly
expected the result.

I paid about $150 for my volumes, and while it was more than I wanted to
spend, that's actually quite a deal. That comes out to less than $40 per book,
and each book is so dense and authoritative that another equivalent book
probably costs on the order of $100. In other words, at least in the USA, if
each book was sold separately as textbooks, I wouldn't be surprised if it cost
$400 in total.

As you have detailed, Knuth's work here is seminal, and he will probably
continue writing until the end of his life (and TAoCP won't be completed by
him). If you intend to truly read and understand all of the material he has
presented, then you're in it for the long run. Unless you are very educated or
a researcher in the field, this is probably years worth of work. This includes
reading all the mathematics, understanding it, and _doing the exercises_. (Of
course, not all exercises can be reasonably done by anyone, as some of them
are actually open research problems.)

Because you'd be in it for the long run, cheap paper copies are a bad idea,
unless you don't mind pages falling out and deteriorating. Doing a semester-
long course in some subject? Okay, that's fine. But purchasing for personal
reasons the opus magnum of one of the greatest computer scientists? That feels
a little different.

Although you've already paid a measly one-tenth of the price already, I'd
consider paying the full price, and take your first as just a tax on the
lesson learned. In the USA, many of us would get a 5-10% markup anyway (sales
tax), so it's not all that devastating.

 _Edit /Addendum_: Lastly, one important thing. For anyone reading this
comment: While there is prestige in finding errors, that should not even be
remotely close to the reason you purchase the books. The checks, in their
original intent, are small awards for finding mistakes, and only somewhat
artificially have they turned into something more. The true reward, as cliché
as this sounds, is being able to read Knuth's prose and learning from it.

If you believe that having such an achievement will slingshot you ahead in
business or academia, this is almost surely false. While the award is nice to
get, it won't give you much in return. I own two checks, and they're on my
résumé, but I don't think they've carried much weight, if at all, at the
multitude of companies I've applied for and been at. I think I've been asked
about them only once, and even that time, the interviewer wasn't interested in
hearing about numerical algorithms or boolean satisfaction.

~~~
anuragramdasan
Yes you do make a great deal of sense. I guess my initial worry was that if
the book would make any sense to me at all. It comes with a reputation of its
own. I didn't seem like a good idea to spend 5000 bucks on a book that I might
end up staring at for a few weeks and then give up. Now I understand
everything in the book, but do not trust its content. Regret that.

~~~
rtkwe
If you look at the price it's in rupees, so 5000 rupees is just 74 USD. The
author bought a $5 version of TAOCP. The lack of quality isn't surprising.

(Unless Rs. isn't Rupee, but Google thinks it is)

~~~
bluepen44
That is the author. In india they call rupees 'bucks' just like here in the
states!

~~~
rtkwe
Ah that makes more sense now. Confusing cross cultural slang. It was shocking
to see how little the expensive version the author passed up was.

~~~
eitally
Especially considering how poor the knock-off Indian domestic reprints are.
Everything is smudgy and looks like it was printed on newsprint (either
standard or glossy -- it varies), without trimmed edges and with a
horrifically bad binding.

~~~
tripzilch
IMO, while it's _nice_ to own a copy of a book that looks good and doesn't
fall apart, the awful thing here is not the cosmetics but the fact that the
copy is a mangled-up version with errors that have been fixed in editions over
a decade ago.

You need to be able to trust a book. I received a misprint of a book I ordered
online once, duplicate pages, missed half a chapter. I didn't need that
particular chapter for the course I was taking then, and it was a week before
the exam so I didn't send it back, it's a really cool book (Computational
Geometry) that, like other interesting study books, I would pick up again and
browse occasionally, if it weren't for this mess up. It's a shame, really.

------
damianknz
Don't let the page numbering ruin these books for you as the contents will
provide you enjoyment for the rest of your life. Its great that you were able
to get your own copy of them. At university in New Zealand TAOCP was on the
recommended reading list for CompSci but the library only had one of each
volume. You could only get them out for _3 hours_ at a time. Years later I was
in a bookstore with my girlfriend a the time and I saw the 3 volume set for
_$NZ 500_. She secretly went back the next day and brought them for me for my
birthday. We are now married.

~~~
chetanahuja
She's a keeper.

------
brownbat
This goes beyond foreign versions of textbooks.

A friend recently recommended "The Broken Sword" by Poul Anderson. The trouble
is, the text of the 1954 work was watered down in 1971. So it's apparently
important to read the right edition, or so Michael Moorcock warns. [1]

I've had small online booksellers assure me they have the edition I want. When
I open the package in the mail, it's never the right version. When I contact
the merchant to ask how I can find the right edition, they just refund my
money and stop talking to me.

Other sales people have told me they have no warehouse access, they have no
way to confirm what's getting in the boxes. The easiest way for them to find
out the edition of a book is to just ship it to me and have me let them know.

You'd think you could have a meaningful discussion with a bookseller about
editions. I know it's not something that matters for every sale, but you'd
think at least those few who choose to deal in books would occasionally notice
that not all books with the same title look identical, and start to wonder
why.

We've moved from a world where I can put my hands on a book, glance at the
copyright page, feel the paper, see the condition, to one where every version
of a work, from annotated to abridged, can be lumped together as a fungible
commodity.

I know, Bezos moves a lot of paper, this isn't going to keep him up at night.
But if I get one "old man yells at clouds" rant, this goes in mine.

[1]
[http://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/jan/25/featuresreviews...](http://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/jan/25/featuresreviews.guardianreview18)

~~~
piqufoh
There's a (not so small) online bookseller with the version you're after

[http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Broken-Sword-Fantasy-
Masterworks...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Broken-Sword-Fantasy-
Masterworks/dp/0575082720)

Apparently the Gollancz Fantasy-Masterworks versions are true to the 1954
version.

~~~
brownbat
My latest attempt was with one of the booksellers on Amazon claiming to have
that edition. I sort of gave up on the site after that fell through.

I'll give the .co.uk version a try, thanks.

------
eigenvalue
The most upsetting part about this is that some of Knuth's valuable and
limited mental energy was wasted because of some idiot publishers trying to
make a buck and being sloppy.

~~~
emiliobumachar
Most likely much time. The unique part of this case was _blogging about it_.
There's a whole bunch of those books out there.

------
kamaal
This is really strange.

Low price editions, or LPE's are the best things to have happened to Indian
students. Without them I couldn't have cleared my engineering exams. And I
have never faced problems like these in the past nor do I remember any body
among my friends report such problems. In fact we only have praise for LPE's.

I am wondering if this is like a one-off goofup on the part of the publisher.
Which it can very likely be.

And the price has nothing to do with it, basically because eventually everyone
realizes that only thing that results from high prices is piracy. So you might
as well sell at a decent price which customers are ready to pay.

------
peterkelly
There's a reason why the version you bought was Rs 400, not Rs 5000. That much
of a price differential should be a red flag.

~~~
anuragramdasan
Actually almost all the Indian editions of the book are much more cheaper than
its US based price in Dollars. And when you look at the paper quality, it
feels like the price is justified.

Also not to look over the fact that both are published by PearsonEd. The US
version by Addison-Wesley and the Indian version by Dorling-Kindersley. Both
are PearsonEd subsidiaries.

~~~
pmiller2
Indeed. My current copy of CLRS3 is a like-new Eastern Economy Edition
paperback. I paid $20 or $30 for it off Amazon versus $92 list price or $55 on
Amazon for the hardcover, and I considered that to be a good deal.

~~~
anuragramdasan
Yes. CLRS I had ordered almost the same time as TAOCP and although I was
skeptical at the beginning, I was surprised that it was a good edition.

The biggest problem is though, once we've bought the Indian edition, we wont
buy the original edition(obviously). This makes it difficult for us to gauge
how much off the edition we own is from the original one.

~~~
pmiller2
I used the Eastern Economy Edition version of CLRS2 in a course I was taking.
I never found a difference other than page numbering (which was accurately
reflected in the index and table of contents), so I think you're okay on that
one. :-)

------
egl2001
The books you have are just fine. The books were high quality when they first
came out. Thousands of us studied the first printings without ill effects.
Besides, you have the opportunity to test your reading by looking for errors.
Just relax and enjoy a masterpiece.

------
saganus
How the art of reading articles was ruined for me: By using pt 8 fonts...

~~~
anuragramdasan
Sorry about putting you through that. Will fix it. Ctrl+ for now please? :)

~~~
saganus
Hahaha. Yes, actually Ctrl + mouse wheel up. I just couldn't stop myself from
taking a shot at the title.

My apologies. I never meant it to be serious. :) Btw, the subject in the text
is indeed interesting and disheartening at the same time.

~~~
anuragramdasan
Haha. No its okay. UI sucks, you didn't like it. That is fine. No need to
apologize. I am a CSS handicap. :/

Yes indeed it is disheartening. It is a magnificent book(from what I've read
till now) and its a shame to see Dr. Knuths efforts being so badly treated.

------
JimmaDaRustla
Makes a good case for advancing digital versions of text books...

~~~
reikonomusha
If there is any book that you should get in paper form, it is TAoCP.

This is one book where the author has taken great care, and decades of work,
to truly build the book from the ground up.

The book, the fonts, and the style were developed for paper. Knuth even has 5
other volumes of books containing the instructions and source code to
reproduce almost every single curve, stroke, and space you see in the books.

I think advocating digital publishing is probably good, but not for all
things. Books shouldn't be treated as source code with continuous deployment.
Even one word on one page can massively restructure the rest of the document,
making it extremely difficult to coordinate and fix.

What I think should be fixed is the dissemination of authentic books at a
reasonable price, for especially students who typically don't have much money
at all.

~~~
jpatokal
Don't forget the typesetting: Knuth wrote TeX because he was unhappy with the
alternatives.

~~~
billforsternz
He didn't forget the typesetting. He (the parent) was basically writing about
the typesetting.

------
coldtea
> _My biggest concern was that if in the future I end up buying a new book,
> how can I be sure it is the same book that I expected to be delivered,
> without any page messups or other oddities._

Just buy the American edition, problem solved.

~~~
anuragramdasan
Kind of beats the point of having regional editions so that users can get
books at a reasonable price, doesn't it?

~~~
mtdewcmu
Is there any way you could find it at a library?

~~~
anuragramdasan
Libraries usually keep Indian editions of the book. I haven't checked for
TAOCP but that was atleast the case with Kernighan and Ritchie.

~~~
mtdewcmu
Do you have access to a university library? One thing about Knuth -- he gets
cited a lot, so I figure I'll absorb some of the choicest parts without having
to go to the source. I have to admire your ambition to just charge through it.

~~~
anuragramdasan
Its actually a fun read once you start approaching it sequentially. I haven't
read all of it yet, but whatever I have read, its been interesting and not
that difficult.

------
EzGraphs
_We 've moved from a world where I can put my hands on a book, glance at the
copyright page, feel the paper, see the condition, to one where every version
of a work, from annotated to abridged, can be lumped together as a fungible
commodity._

Yes - really a rather profound change. The entire way new books are produced
has changed as a result as well. Print-on-demand in particular can result in
you literally having a "one-off" edition of a book. The benefit is quicker
integration of corrections. Am not sure we really fully understand some of the
negative consequences...

------
anonyblahblah
I always say that pirating games and films was simply better in every way than
paying for them. Better quality, support, more convenient formats, minus the
DRM. My conscience has been hardened by all the times i have been screwed over
by crippling DRM when using something I have paid for. Pirated versions, of
course have this removed for you.

Sadly, It seems the same is beginning to apply to books as well. Publishers
should take heed of this unless they want to follow the fate of music and
movie industries.

------
deletes
Imagine getting a Xeroxed copy of the illegal version of the book.

~~~
pmiller2
Lions' commentary on Unix was passed around for years like this before it was
allowed to be officially published. There's a grand tradition of samizdat in
academia for stuff like this (mostly pre-prints, though).

~~~
deletes
I was hinting at the latest Xerox fiasco.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6156238](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6156238)

------
tzs
Those "reprint editions" could actually be useful. Consider the section of
Volume II called "How Fast Can We Multiply?" (or something close to that).

That section has undergone major changes for each edition. The current edition
is fine if you just want to know the best answer (as of the time that edition
was written). However, if you also read the earlier two editions, you will get
a deeper understanding of the material.

------
susi22
Offtopic: Concrete Mathematics is the best book I've ever read. If you have a
chance get it. It requires very very little pre knowledge of math.

~~~
icelancer
I searched it on Amazon and saw numerous reviews saying you need a strong
grasp of discrete mathematics, which is hardly "very very little" knowledge of
math. I didn't study serious discrete math until my upper classes in
undergraduate school.

~~~
Grue3
I can confirm that it's pretty math heavy. I was considered a math genius in
my school and I was having trouble with the later chapters.

~~~
susi22
Yes, the later chapters are tough. But I'd definitely say you don't need much
preliminary discrete math in the first couple chapters. Let's say up to
chapter 6 (Special Numbers)

------
ExpiredLink
The fonts on this page are too large. Make them smaller!

~~~
sukuriant
And zooming in does not make a left-right scroll bar. That's what I had to do
to read it. That font is really, really tiny on my 1900 x 1200 screen

~~~
CapitalistCartr
"Control +" is your friend.

~~~
sukuriant
That's what I did; but it's still a poor, customized-beyond defaults,
resolution. I'm curious to load that page in high DPI mode for users with
vision impairments and see if it increases in size.

------
talkingquickly
Slightly off topic but can anyone recommend a good book on algebra to get back
up to speed before attempting to read these?

~~~
treerex
"Concrete Mathematics" by Graham, Knuth and Patashnik is probably the best
preparation for tackling TAoCP, though it is not light reading either.

You could also look at "Mathematics for Computer Science" by Lehman, Leighton,
and Meyer. It is available at [http://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.042/fall10/mcs-
ftl.pdf](http://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.042/fall10/mcs-ftl.pdf) .

~~~
talkingquickly
Perfect, many thanks.

------
nsomaru
so where would be a good source of quality books in India?

~~~
anuragramdasan
As of now, I order books mostly over Amazon. They ship the 'real' edition. Its
expensive but that's better than the other alternative.

Also, I never claimed all the Indian books are flawed. You wouldn't know until
you buy one. Your best bet would be to check one out from a library, use it,
figure it out for yourself and then decide whether to buy an Indian edition or
the real one.

~~~
nsomaru
Thanks for the Amazon recommendation.

I am an expat (repat?) living in rural India and do not have access to
libraries.

------
phaus
I honestly don't understand how you can live in India and expect shit like
this not to happen. People in India don't even have the reasonable expectation
of riding a public bus without getting raped to death, how cold you possibly
expect the authorities to care about counterfeit books?

India is a beautiful place, with lots of brilliant, talented people, but until
their local and federal governments start observing and enforcing the rule of
law, it's going to remain one of the shittiest countries to live in.

~~~
pcx66
> People in India don't even have the reasonable expectation of riding a
> public bus without getting raped to death

That was very, very offensive. Are you an Indian? or at the least been to
India? My mother has been using public transport for 25 years (now traveling
upto 150Kms for her job). She never had a problem. Show some data and or shut
up your arrogant mouth.

~~~
harlanlewis
I think he's referring to a recent spate of rapes in India that received a lot
of exposure in the US press.

TIME just posted an article about high-profile gang rape in India a couple
days ago: [http://world.time.com/2013/09/02/india-fury-over-gang-
rapes-...](http://world.time.com/2013/09/02/india-fury-over-gang-rapes-sign-
of-changing-nation/)

~~~
pcx66
Yes, I got that. Here's my take on it, which might contradict most of the
stories out there. I don't think the many number of such recent cases is a new
occurrence. It's just that the media is using 'Rape cases' as their 'News
topic for the year', making sure they make a big deal out of such cases, which
is a good thing.

But media concentrating so much on this topic is because people are finally
ready to talk about such stuff. I've heard of dozens of rumors of rape that
were allegedly subdued over the last few years. I think the Delhi rape
incident was the tipping point.

I don't think rape cases have increased, I think the reporting and public
outcry have gone up. India is finally dealing with the most shameful parts of
a society whose discussion was until now anti-cultural, any discussion related
to sex is anti-cultural. In our movies the most just thing for a rape victim
was to get them married to the rapist, that was considered giving the victim a
life, go figure that out.

Despite all that, I and several other people go by our day mostly care free.
There is a sense of security in our social lives. Shit still happens, where
doesn't it not happen. But this shit is not new, it is not unique to us.
Making such lame shallow comment about a culture is insensitive.

~~~
phaus
It isn't a shallow comment. Receiving Justice in India is largely a function
of gender and caste. I mention it not because I look down on India, but
because I see so much potential in that country that may never be fulfilled if
it doesn't fix its government, and its social attitudes towards women and poor
people.

I don't think that there is a dramatic increase in rapes in India, its just
that information flows more freely now. I agree that its getting attention
because people in India are finally ready to talk about such issues. When I
talk about India being a shitty country, I'm talking about the government, and
the people who allow the caste system to persist. Many average Indians are
outraged by the way that rape victims are treated, yet the government just
wants everyone to act like its OK to punish the victims.

For what its worth, I bitch about the United States just as much if not more
than any other country, because we have been fucking up a lot lately too.

~~~
yarou
> It isn't a shallow comment.

It is, because it reeks of irony, cultural chauvinism, and a fundamental
Western bias.

> Receiving Justice in India is largely a function of gender and caste.

Replace gender and caste with money, and your statement becomes correct. In
fact, there is quite a bit of reverse discrimination when it comes to the
caste system.

Your earlier comments show a complete lack of understanding and context of
Indian culture, so I won't bother picking them apart. All I can say is, it
must take a scary level of indoctrination to draw the logical conclusion that
"no wonder there are so many rapes in this country!" from "error in reprinted
CS book".

~~~
phaus
I'd be a cultural chauvinist if I went around telling everyone how America is
awesome and can do no wrong. I actually spend a lot of time complaining about
my own country's problems, so I don't really understand this accusation.

It would be ironic if I were on here denying the problems that my own country
faces, while commenting on India's. But as I said, I spend a lot of time
talking about that as well, so irony doesn't make sense either.

What is the context of Indian culture that makes institutional corruption,
gender / class discrimination, and the demonization of rape victims OK? Once
again, please keep in mind that I'm not talking about all of India, just the
corrupt government institutions and wealthy individuals that are comfortable
living in the middle ages.

I don't see why this is such a controversial view, if you made a comment about
corruption in America, I'd be more inclined to agree with you than to act like
my personal honor has been besmirched because my country isn't perfect.

