
Ask HN: Is there room for a non-profit computer science degree provider? - trcollinson
I was reading over in the “What did you work on in 2017” thread and noticed quite a number of people are working on bootcamp style engineering curriculums. That led me to wonder again about something I’ve thought of before:<p>Why isn’t there a bootcamp that provides a bachelors level computer science degree?<p>I realize that most bootcamps are focused on providing people with the skills needed to get a job quickly, getting a bachelors level degree is a different market. But I would imagine there are people who would like that level of degree.<p>I also realize that a bachelors level degree has a number of requirements that aren’t purely comp sci requirements. I don’t see that as a problem. Why not have a full curriculum? I think that is possible.<p>Also, why does a comp sci degree have to cost so much? In fact, if you’re willing to put in the effort to learn and grow why can’t it be free? This may be a very US centric view. I know other countries have different ways of paying for college educations. But here in the US it’s going to cost you tens of thousands of dollars at minimum. Does it have to be that way?<p>So I guess my question is, why can’t there be a free or low cost, not for profit, accredited bachelors level computer science degree?<p>What am I missing?
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seanmcdirmid
Most public and even private universities are non profit. The American system
is very service-heavy (smaller class sizes, lots of hand holding), while what
you want is the German system, where your education is almost free but all
they give you is have a lecture with a huge audience and one or two graded
tests per semester. This is also kind of the opposite of a boot camp, which is
an accelerated program that relies on lots of support.

~~~
mcny
What if we go the MOOC route with very, very frequent clicker type quizzes
with detailed explanations that help students assess where they are and also
severely cut down on the interaction between the student and the instructor?
Any student feedback will be public and the instructor shall use it to improve
the course, quizzes, and projects for all?

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TylerE
Because a degree isn't worth the paper it's printed on unless it comes from an
accredited institution - and that takes $$$.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Perhaps accreditation should be separated from education.

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jfaucett
> So I guess my question is, why can’t there be a free or low cost, not for
> profit, accredited bachelors level computer science degree?

I've looked into this topic somewhat, and basically it boils down to dense
regulation by governments and an oligopoly on "accreditation" by a few
institutions that has risen out of this. However, the costs are not
insurmountable to obtain accreditation, but the process itself is rather
arduous and not quite as inexpensive as this article
([https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2015/10/22/real-
costs-a...](https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2015/10/22/real-costs-
accreditation-and-processs-value-essay)) leads you to believe, still perhaps
40-60k a year are the costs you would be looking at for accreditation alone,
and you haven't even started to pay your faculty or administrators to work
with the institution to maintain standards, etc.

However, in order to be accredited you need to meet each and every requirement
and suggestion made by these institutions. I have no idea how pliable they
would be to alternative plans of learning and anything non-standard - my guess
is not very, but I could be mistaken.

> But here in the US it’s going to cost you tens of thousands of dollars at
> minimum. Does it have to be that way?

It doesn't. There is nothing inherent in the process of "gaining the knowledge
and skills of a BA in Computer Science" that needs to costs anywhere near
thousands of dollars - except in opportunity costs perhaps. Its just that the
US system, through misaligned Government policy, has created an environment in
which it is very difficult for an entrepreneur to just come in and "open up a
new learning institution", so new and alternative models don't get tried out
and aren't allowed to freely compete in order to weed out inefficiences and
allow for the best to rise to the top.

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hackermailman
There is a low cost, accredited (in the US) BSc, or 2 year associates degree,
in Computer Science that can be taken by online remote students anywhere in
the world
[https://www.uopeople.edu/programs/](https://www.uopeople.edu/programs/)

The only formal entrance req are the ability to read/write English, and a high
school diploma. Exams are $100 each, and there's 40 exams over a 4 year period
plus whatever costs for taking them proctored through ProctorU or some other
local service, or somebody that agrees to be your proctor who isn't related to
you. Credits can be transferred to NYU or Berkeley. Example of some of the
courses: [https://www.uopeople.edu/prepare-for-university/computer-
sci...](https://www.uopeople.edu/prepare-for-university/computer-science-
courses-prepare-university/)

There's also also wgu.edu which is non-profit and offers online degrees, not
as inexpensive as UofPeople. Open University in the UK also offers remote CS
BSc (and Statistics BSc) but it's around $2.5k/year GBP for part-time. Arizona
State also has an online BSc in software engineering but it's reg tuition
costs, so $15k+ per year.

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WheelsAtLarge
There's room. But the problem you'll find is the constant problem with raising
funds and keeping staff. People have their own motivations for working at a
place but the bottom line is that they must feel like they are earning enough
to keep them satisfied. It varies by person. But if the workplace can't
compete in pay and benefits then people move to where they can find that.

Also, it's expensive to run a quality business and you'll find that you will
need to charge students about what they are paying now. You might give them a
better quality education but ultimately it costs a lot of money to keep staff
and the other business needs. So either you charge what it costs or you do
fundraising. Also, even if you keep the costs low, students what to attend and
pay for a school that will eventually give them the education that will give
them the skill to get a top paying job. You need to build a reputation that
will eventually create a school people want to attend.

So basically you have to have a benefactor that will pay and carry you through
the expenses and the time to build a reputation. It's a very hard to do.

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twblalock
The average student loan debt in the US is about $30k. That's a little less
than the price of the average new car sold in the US in 2017, and it's quite a
bit less than the first year of salary for a graduate with a CS degree.

You can get a good education that prepares you for a high-paying career for
less than the price of a Toyota Camry with leather seats. That seems to me
like a fantastic deal.

~~~
teraflop
There's a pretty big difference between "average student loan debt" and "the
cost of an education". The former doesn't include costs that were paid without
going into debt, nor does it include debt that has been partially paid off
after graduation.

Don't forget to factor in the opportunity cost of not working a full-time job
for four years.

~~~
jjeaff
Lots of non education expenses get rolled into student loan debt. I've known
people to take out max student loan debt and buy CDs or invest it in rental
property.

Some people take out excess student loan debt because they don't want to cramp
their lifestyle of a nice car and eating out everyday.

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knicholes
I don't see the need for a degree if you have the skills. People who have the
grit to bootstrap their CS education and complete it will do so. They don't
need the support of a bootcamp or an accredited institution.

In my work in trying to teach CS to refugees and underprivileged,
underrepresented people, I've been discouraged. As of now, I believe that
there is a very small subset of people who can really "get it" and make a
difference. I think even I am not one who can, but through my hard work and
determination, I've been able to eek out a pretty good income.

You can bring a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink. These kids
want to be doctors, flight attendants, sports stars. Sure, they'll come sit in
class because their parents are making them (because they see the value in
what we're offering... free CS education with professional and industry
support) They'd rather hang out with their friends than secure the keys needed
to break the poverty cycle.

~~~
mlevental
>These kids

they're children. there's something tragically wrong with the world that we
expect children to be so jaded that they'd rather be career climbing than
"hang out with their friends". i say this as someone who occasionally wishes
he did do that (hung out less and studied more) and did come relative poverty
but my point still stands.

~~~
greenyoda
> they're children

At some point, children need to start maturing and thinking of themselves as
adults. When they go off to college at 18, they're old enough to legally vote,
drive, hold a job, get married or join the military. They still have a bit of
growing up to do, but they're no longer children.

I spent a lot of time hanging out with friends in college, but I (and a lot of
other people I knew) also worked hard at my classes (CS degree) and held down
part-time jobs. My family wasn't rich, and I was old enough to realize that
I'd have to support myself when I graduated.

I think we're doing young adults a disservice by thinking of them as
"children".

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dragonwriter
> Why isn’t there a bootcamp that provides a bachelors level computer science
> degree?

Because meeting government rules for private, for-profit degree granting
institutions and accreditation requirements for degree granting institutions
requires a lot of expenditure and, for accreditation, time that get-rich-quick
bootcamp operators aren't interested in.

> So I guess my question is, why can’t there be a free or low cost, not for
> profit, accredited bachelors level computer science degree?

The vast majority of US colleges and universities are either private
nonprofits or public institutions.

~~~
jjeaff
Whether the bootcamp people are greedy or not doesn't factor in.

Getting national accreditation for a coding bootcamp would be like getting a
PhD in biology to be a dog groomer. Not only is it overkill, it wouldn't
really teach you to do your job.

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ghufran_syed
There already is, it's just not widely known, and they don't spend much money
on advertising, probably to keep the fees down: University of London
International program (distance learning) BS in Computing and Information
Systems Total Cost of 3 year degree: $8000
[https://london.ac.uk/courses/computing-and-information-
syste...](https://london.ac.uk/courses/computing-and-information-systems#fees)

~~~
xor1
That is not CS.

~~~
ghufran_syed
Did you actually look at the course listings? The final year includes courses
in NLP, AI, Neural Networks, Data Compression, Computer Security. Sounds
pretty "computer science" to me...

~~~
xor1
I did not, but do you expect the people reviewing your resume/credentials to
look at the course listings? There's a reason job listings specifically ask
for a CS degree. It's not necessarily a good reason, but it needs to be
acknowledged. I don't have one, BTW, hence why I'm interested in an online
course.

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sosilkj
SUNY (State University of New York) now offers full tuition coverage for NY
residents.

[https://www.ny.gov/programs/tuition-free-degree-program-
exce...](https://www.ny.gov/programs/tuition-free-degree-program-excelsior-
scholarship)

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skywhopper
Of all the degrees that could be free, one that near guarantees you one of the
highest paying professional careers immediately upon graduation is not exactly
a bad investment.

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tastyham
Almost all US universities are non-profit.

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canadiancreed
Personally I'd be ecstatic if they could do a remote CS degree, non-profit or
no.

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aorloff
San Jose State University

