
Document 17 Declassified – 9/11 attackers may have had links to Saudi Arabia [pdf] - agjmills
https://28pagesdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/document-17.pdf
======
dfsegoat
We should not be surprised. The Kingdom of Saud is rooted in wahhabism - an
ultraconservative branch of Islam that also happens to be the primary
influence of a little group called Daesh/ISIL.

~~~
dismal2
There is a fantastic Adam Curtis documentary about Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism
called Bitter Lake.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitter_Lake_(film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitter_Lake_\(film\))

Due to various issues, you'll just have to find a way to watch it... (BBC
iplayer blocked in us, copyright issues when posted on youtube, etc, etc, etc)

~~~
randomsearch
I thought Bitter Lake was an amazing documentary.

Can anyone recommend related or similar work of the same quality?

~~~
iheartmemcache
"The Century of Self" is probably his seminal work. Remember that Adam Curtis
is .. well.. Adam Curtis. His story is going to have a spin (as anyone's will
- but it's important to be cognizant of that; when one reads Zinn's Peoples
History of the US, I tell them to read "The Origin of Politics" just to get
another take from an equally well-educated, articulate writer). I try _really
hard_ to get both sides of the story from internally consistent sources.

It's easy for me to immediately dismiss most modern neo-con sources, since
their (amazingly effective) strategy is mostly based on emotional
scaremongering with internally inconsistent arguments. I'm not their target
demographic and they know it.

They're not idiots (in fact, re: education - Fox News has a surprisingly large
percentage of hosts with degrees from well-revered instituions; which makes it
all the more ironic when one points out that nice blonde lady denigrating the
"liberal East coast elites" trying to emotionally connect with the midwestern
housewife, herself is Harvard educated) but there definitely is another side
to the story and it's important to at least hear their argument before you
dismiss it.

~~~
randomsearch
I recently watched "The Century of Self" \-- it was excellent and I can
thoroughly second iheartmemcache's recommendation.

As for getting the balance of hearing all arguments, I have a habit of doing
the same. I regularly read The Economist for its free-market bias (and
excellent writing, btw), for example.

------
uptown
This document is different from the 28 pages that remain classified. For more
info on that, read here:

[https://28pages.org/faq/](https://28pages.org/faq/)

~~~
wozniacki
Precisely.

Those pages have been kept so securely & hidden away from everyone that even
Congressmen & Senators with clearances weren't even allowed to take notes on a
scratchpad, when perusing them.

They had to mentally memorize any of the contents therein !

Here's the recent 60 Minutes piece on the White House's potential
declassification of the "28 pages" [1] of the 9/11 Commission Report [2].

[http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/28-pages](http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/28-pages)

[ Warning : Auto play video ]

    
    
      It also comes at a time when the White House and intelligence officials 
      are reviewing whether to declassify one of the country's most sensitive 
      documents -- known as the "28 pages." They have to do with 9/11 and the 
      possible existence of a Saudi support network for the hijackers while 
      they were in the U.S.
    
      For 13 years, the 28 pages have been locked away in a secret vault. Only 
      a small group of people have ever seen them. Tonight, you will hear from 
      some of the people who have read them and believe, along with the families 
      of 9/11 victims that they should be declassified.
    

[1] 28 Pages

[http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-911-classified-
report...](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-911-classified-report-steve-
kroft/)

[ Warning : Auto play video ]

[2] 9/11 Commission Report

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission_Report](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission_Report)

~~~
AnkhMorporkian
> (...) weren't even allowed to take notes on a scratchpad, when perusing
> them.

That's really not that surprising. Notes would need to be derivatively
classified, and would require special transportation out of the SCIF that they
were taken in. Additionally, I doubt any congresspeople's offices are SCIFs
that would be allowed to store such sensitive information.

~~~
nickpsecurity
Careful not to drink the KOOLAID. Congress people, especially Wyden, have
requested SCIF's for events like that before and were rejected on
technicalities. Bruce Schneier said they requested one when they met him to
discuss Snowden leaks DOD were still trying to contain. DOD wouldnt allow the
SCIF.

CIA pulled same kind of BS with torture report allegedly for OPSEC then showed
true motivation with hacking to cover up their wrongdoing.

~~~
AnkhMorporkian
Not drinking any koolaid, I have just worked with classified info in the past
and have run head-on with the restrictions regarding their handling. I have no
idea whether the intelligence community has some ulterior motive, I'm just
saying that not allowing them to take notes isn't some unbelievable
restriction for TS information.

~~~
nickpsecurity
I was joking with you on that part. Yes, there's policy requirements that
affect these things. That the Executive agencies keep refusing to make
adequate exceptions or provisions for Legislative and Judicial is either a
sign of incompetence or malice.

------
patates
This is hard to parse without any commentary. What should I, as an average
person, take from this? Should I start to think Saudi Arabia as a terrorist
country or is there room for interpretation?

I'm very sure, by intuition, that this is important but probably would have
been more valuable with some opinions from people who are knowledgeable on the
subject.

~~~
rayiner
In addition to coldtea's point: Saudi is in some respects the bizarro version
of the US. While we export American Idol and McDonalds, they build schools
teaching extremist Islam all over the world. Many formerly more moderate
countries have gotten much more theocratic in the last 20 years, and Saudi
evangelism funded by oil money has played a huge role.

For example, when I visited Bangladesh in the early 1990's, seeing veiled
women in the capital city of Dhaka was unusual. It's very common today.

~~~
yodsanklai
> For example, when I visited Bangladesh in the early 1990's, seeing veiled
> women in the capital city of Dhaka was unusual. It's very common today.

Why do you think SA has something to do with this?

BTW, this is true in some western countries as well (I'm thinking of France
where veiled women are everywhere, it wasn't the case in the 80s). I wonder
what explains this trend.

~~~
rayiner
See: [http://m.dw.com/en/petro-islam-on-the-rise-in-
bangladesh/a-6...](http://m.dw.com/en/petro-islam-on-the-rise-in-
bangladesh/a-6552859)

------
samfisher83
The title is a little misleading. Obviously the hijackers were mostly from
Saudi. The document shows how those people were directly connected with
government.

However in Saudi a ton of people work for the government so it isn't
surprising they had connections to Saudi government.

------
rmc
I thought everyone already knew this?

~~~
shrugger
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Has a very "Scientists report water to be
wet" feel to the whole thing.

It's almost like they think that 9/11 is just a part of life now, and the only
thing that matters is the paper trail. Realistically, it signals a new
societal problem of religious toxicity and an insidious new type of invader
that we as Americans (assumption) have not faced before. If we can't trust our
neighbors not to blow us up, who CAN we trust?

------
geofft
I was curious about a source, especially since it seems like it was
declassified almost a year ago. The same papers are available from .gov as:

[https://www.archives.gov/declassification/iscap/pdf/2012-048...](https://www.archives.gov/declassification/iscap/pdf/2012-048-doc17.pdf)

The index page,

[https://www.archives.gov/declassification/iscap/pdf/2012-048...](https://www.archives.gov/declassification/iscap/pdf/2012-048.html)

calls it "Saudi Notes". There's one other set of "Saudi Notes" and some "Saudi
News Clips" on that page.

Does anyone know what the declassification process was for these / why they
were declassified?

------
happyslobro
Is it unusual for nations to use terrorists, mercenaries, privateers for
missions that they don't want to be directly associated with? IIRC, the
Russians and the Americans were doing this in the Middle East in the 20th
century, and may still be doing it in Syria now.

Seems to me that the real news is that Saudi and America are able to be allies
and enemies at the same time, not that they may have employed people who have
the big T label.

------
mangeletti
I'd be curious to see whether any of the redacted sections are available via
Illustrator[1].

1\. [http://hackaday.com/2008/08/01/exposing-poorly-redacted-
pdfs...](http://hackaday.com/2008/08/01/exposing-poorly-redacted-pdfs/)

~~~
smpetrey
Funny story:

My economics professor back in college would give us these take-home quizzes
each month with hundreds and hundreds of "short-answer" questions on them to
use to study for tests and such.

I noticed there was a inconsistent amount spacing between questions and opened
one of the pdf's in illustrator. The fool actually drew white boxes over all
of the answers. Needless to say, I walked away from that class with high
marks.

That was a lovely class.

------
tremon
"May have had"?

I thought it was widely known that Osama Bin Laden was heavily financed from
there? Also: wahabi?

~~~
coredog64
Heavily financed as in "inherited a shit-ton of money from his rich dad", or
something else?

------
rrggrr
In 2012 Citigroup forecast that Saudi Arabia would run out of oil in 2030. If
true, there must have been considerable anxiety in the years preceding 9/11 as
the Saudi government contemplated ways to offset its impending decline in
reserves. Fortunately for the Saudis, 9/11 was the catalyst for the fall of
Iraq, a country with the largest unproven oil reserves in the region, and
ideally located near Saudi refineries and export infrastructure. In the book
Hotel California: The Clandestine War in Iraq, the author repeatedly claims
the Bush Administration was divorced from reality... its scary to think the
United States was manipulated into deposing Sadaam for the benefit of Saudi
Arabia.

~~~
samstave
I have stated this was the goal for years. They knew that Saudi was peak, and
what better way to prevent the next largest reserves from being pumped dry;
war. Keep that going until you can go in and steal all the oil after you run
out.

------
dmix
Reading the quotes from this page give enough of an indication that there is
more than just a connection between the hijackers and Saudi diplomats as was
shown in this release, but specifically financing and involvement from well
known figures at a seemingly significant level:

[https://28pages.org/quotable/](https://28pages.org/quotable/)

> When asked by 60 Minutes if the 28 pages include specific names: “Yes. The
> average intelligent watcher of 60 Minutes would recognize them instantly.”

~~~
samstave
Can someone explain exactly why these 28 pages are being held top secret? What
implications are there if the wider world knew their content?

And are they classified with a certain timeframe - like "for the next 70
years" or some such?

------
esquivalience
Informant Codename: Muppet. Poor guy.

------
phatbyte
The timing couldn't be better.

~~~
opendomain
Can you clarify? Why was it important that this came out now?

~~~
ttctciyf
Maybe because of the Presidential trip to Saudi Arabia?

[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/20/barack-obama-
sa...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/20/barack-obama-saudi-arabia-
visit-king-salman-relationship)

------
jokoon
I'm afraid that this will put SA in a very bad position, bad enough to gain
some hate from around the world.

The day this alliance between the US and SA starts to diminish or ends, it's
not going to be worrying. Muslims already get so much hate everywhere, if the
home of Islam gets bad PR, the middle east will turn up worse than it already
is. I hope I'm just being pessimistic here.

~~~
riyadparvez
SA should get bad PR. SA has been exporting Islamic terrorism for decades with
their petro-dollars. SA funds mosques, madrassas with their extreme ideologies
which in turn breeds terrorists. I have seen my home country has been being
Islamized which is directly funded by SA.

~~~
jokoon
Unless they manage to stir enough hate to create more and more conflicts. The
problem isn't really SA's government, it is the potential for violence to
spread.

Once SA gets bad rep, muslims around the world might also get bad PR. So it
might be wiser to play along with them than to pave the way for more middle
east instability.

I also hate islamism, but I prefer that than WW3.

------
arca_vorago
I'm curious about the repercussions for the British Monarchy and th Bushes due
to their unnaturally cozy relationships.

------
dukoid
What a coincidence with the recent visit...

------
dsabanin
Looks like they might be getting some democracy soon!

~~~
Synaesthesia
Doubt it, they've been a dictatorship supported by the US since day one.

~~~
Uhhrrr
He is using "democracy" as an ironic euphemism for "bombs".

~~~
Synaesthesia
I understand that. I don't think the US is about to attack Saudi Arabia, it's
longest standing ally.

------
gadders
Is anyone seriously shocked by this?

~~~
geofft
Well, we knew almost immediately after the attacks that 15 of the 19 attackers
were citizens of Saudi Arabia.

From skimming the document quickly, I don't see anything that implies definite
ties to the Saudi _government_ , which would be interesting. They knew people
who worked for the Saudi government, but I don't think this document says
anything more than that.

------
emirb
not a HN content

~~~
coldtea
HN is a social bookmarking site.

Anything that gets voted to the first page IS de facto HN content, as voted by
HN users, unless it specifically violates some rule.

~~~
eterm
That rule would be the first rule in the guidelines:

Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're
evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. [...] If they'd cover it on TV
news, it's probably off-topic.

From
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
Raphmedia
> unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon.

I think this article fits the description.

------
puppetmaster3
O ba ma: [https://www.rt.com/usa/340313-obama-saudi-pages-
classified/#...](https://www.rt.com/usa/340313-obama-saudi-pages-
classified/#.VxebaXHmckE.facebook)

~~~
spriggan3
This is not just Obama, Hillary, and obviously the Bush families who have had
long ties with the Saudi dinasty. This isn't a left vs right issue, most
politicians in US are in bed with the Saudis.

------
funkyy
I wonder if its part of Panama Leaks counter measures. Make US and SA look bad
and make them hostile towards each other to cover up the leaks.

