
Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning - antman
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece
======
kfk
The issue with Greece is that they were given money and they did not change
anything, they just kept spending. Giving them more money is just going to
delay the inevitable - they will go bankrupt, full stop. They don't produce
enough of "what people want", plus they spend more than they can afford to,
and that's that. The real problem is that the Eurozone has no mechanism to
deal with bankrupt. There should be an easy way out of the Eurozone or an
"easy" way to default. Italy will follow Greece, sooner or later, maybe
Portugal and who knows, even France. We have to deal with the fact we have
broken public spending all around Europe and that will catch up, if not now,
in 5, 10, 15 or so years. But markets adapt to this king of stuff, they will
soon build default risks in their prices and demand higher interests, on the
other end, when a country default, we will be able to leave the loss to the
private sector and not to the tax payers, which is the real shame in all this
story.

~~~
RobertoG
“The issue with Greece is that they were given money and they did not change
anything, they just kept spending.”

I don't understand why this is repeated again and again.

The reality has nothing to do with that. Greece has implemented austerity
policies that no other country in Europe has implemented. Compared to the
American big depression, they have lived for a longer period of time with
worse economic conditions.

The recipes coming from the Troika has been implemented and the result is that
they are in a deeper hole. So they say “now what?” and the answer is “keep
digging”.

I am amazed how brainwashed is the public opinion.

And about where the money is going, I recommend reading this:
[http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/6013.html](http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/6013.html)

~~~
kfk
Where do you see the austerity:
[http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/government-
spending-t...](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/government-spending-to-
gdp)

?

Public spending of GDP was 46.9% in 2008 and 49.3% in 2014.

Really, the brainwash is probably on the other side. Everybody talks about
austerity, yet public spending has been growing steadily after WW II pretty
much everywhere, even after 2008.

~~~
dpark
Their GDP has contracted massively since austerity was introduced. Look at
Euro's spent and the government cuts are pretty clear.

[http://www.tradingeconomics.com/embed/?s=greecegovspe&d1=200...](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/embed/?s=greecegovspe&d1=20000101&d2=20151231&h=300&w=600&ref=/greece/government-
spending')

~~~
kfk
Well, 3 things. First, to define austerity, you need to use ratios, absolute
values make comparisons impossible and 49.3% of public spending on GDP is
_not_ austerity, by any means. Second, the graph you linked shows similar
level of spending as 2001 and I am not aware of any austerity claims during
that year in Greece. Third, how much public spending do you want? 60/70% of
GDP? Because that's what it takes to keep the same level of spending as
2007/8\. Do you think that's reasonable? More than half of the economy managed
by a (very corrupted) State?

~~~
AnimalMuppet
The generally accepted theory of economics these days is that, as a nation's
economy hits a downturn, the government should spend _more_ , not less. Not
"more as a higher percentage of GDP" \- GDP is shrinking. No, the theory is,
the government should spend more in absolute terms.

That's the theory. The theory could be stupid if too much government debt is
what caused the downturn in the first place.

And the theory usually breaks in this way: There is a downturn. The government
spends more. The economy picks back up eventually. The government continues to
spend more. That means, to have any effect, at the next downturn, the
government has to spend even _more_. And that eventually gets you to the
situation stated in the previous paragraph.

~~~
kfk
I think you guys should read Schumpeter. There is no economist sane (or
honest) in his mind proposing to do more random public spending when things go
south. Think of it this way - if an economic downturn hits US, would you
rather leave more money to ycombinator to invest in promising startups, or tax
them more and use that money to "grow" the economy through public spending?

And let's be realistic, Greece is like Italy. An enormous proportion of the
public spending goes to pay privileges (pensions that are too high, useless
public jobs, useless buildings, etc.), do you really think that money will
grow the economy? Don't you think it creates much more value if left to the
private sector? Of course, you need a real private sector, with clear rules
for everybody, and that's exactly what they don't want to do! You see the
problem here?

------
nailer
I (genuinely) do not understand: Greece had the choice to not accept the
bailout. It was a hard and potentially dangerous choice, but the Greek people
made it.

\- Why is Tsipras ignoring the people?

\- Why do people think the Greek government didn't have the choice (eg
'#thisisacoup' on Twitter)? Just because it's a difficult choice doesn't mean
the choice didn't exist.

~~~
atmosx
I strongly believe that as Krugman pointed out, if Greece were to exit the
EUR, Germany would have pushed for a Eurozone exit as well, probably issue
some sort of embargo and made everything possible to made an example out of
Greece. It already did actually.

I think that was the meeting all about: They told Tsipras that he either sign
a deal or face oblivion one way or another.

Greece had no real allies.

The people in Greece made a choice last week and are ready to make many
_difficult_ choices. The problem is that we (me and other citizens) are caught
between the hammer and the anvil, on one side we have Europeans who don't care
and on the other a corrupted government who doesn't want to take on anyone,
oligarchs (ship-owners, tax-evaders, etc.). See my other comment above for
details. (to be posted in a while).

~~~
claudius
> The problem is that we (me and other citizens) are caught between the hammer
> and the anvil, on one side we have Europeans who don't care and on the other
> a corrupted government who doesn't want to take on anyone, oligarchs (ship-
> owners, tax-evaders, etc.).

So because you don’t want to fix your government and continue the oligarchic
corruption, the rest of Europe must pay? Please explain _why_ Germany should
continue to pour money into Greece if, after five years of known problems,
there are _still_ oligarchs and tax evaders there.

~~~
atmosx
How do you propose fixing our current government when the oligarchs are
strongly supported by the TROIKA[1]?

[1]
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Christoforakos#Auslief...](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Christoforakos#Auslieferungsverfahren)

------
mhd
"Varoufakis said that Schäuble, Germany’s finance minister and the architect
of the deals Greece signed in 2010 and 2012, was “consistent throughout”. “His
view was ‘I’m not discussing the programme – this was accepted by the previous
[Greek] government and we can’t possibly allow an election to change
anything."

Well, Germany does know a little about bearing the debts of your predecessors
on your shoulders.

~~~
fit2rule
Indeed Germanys' own attempts at managing the crippling debts imposed upon it,
resulted in the Debt Relief it seems so disinclined to offer to others.
Germany was once in Greeces' position - and would not have survived if it were
not offered debt relief by the world - including Greece - when it needed it.

I find the duplicity in the public arguments rather distasteful. How easily
the world forgets that Germany was once forgiven its debts.

~~~
mhd
I still don't see that as "in Greeces' position", unless you're really just
focusing on the debt as a solitary data point without giving heed to the other
circumstances. Bad loans and fiscal irresponsibility isn't really the same as
the fallout from a war.

But that has been debated again and again before and is basically the center
of the whole brouhaha: Germany's debtors back then thought that after the debt
relief it would become financially stable on its own. And that doesn't seem to
be the case now with Tsipras' Greece -- and Schäuble doesn't seem to be the
only one with that opinion.

~~~
fit2rule
Germany had fought two wars and destroyed Europe. It did more damage to the
world than Greece is doing - or has the potential to do - here and now. Bad
loans and fiscal irresponsibility was very definitely a key factor in how
Germany managed to get into that position - yet Germany was granted clemency
and 50%+ of its debt was relieved. Its economy rebounded and it is now a major
European power.

Why is this not good enough for the Greek people, who have not destroyed
Europe in two major wars, have not enacted a hateful ideology across the
lands? Certainly, there should be some 'punishment' for Greek fiscal
dishonesty - certainly, there should be 'repercussions' for screwing around
with the worlds' economy - but why do the punishments and repercussions not
match the deed, relative to that granted the prosecutors of action (Germany)
in this case?

The answer is: this is economic warfare. Germany is at it again, albeit this
time with bad loans and unfair negotiation instead of blitzkrieg and racial
cleansing. Much attention should be being paid to the un-yielding position of
a country which should know better than to deny economic relief to a large
citizenry who need it badly. This is, after all, the basis of Germanys' own
"miraculous" recovery after it nearly destroyed the world.

Debt relief is the only answer, and in a just world - not one dominated and
ruled by unelected authorities with illegal powers - this is what would be
happening for the Greek people, and indeed all of Europe. But because people
don't realize that Europe is ruled by an autocratic, fascist, unelected
oligarchy, the correct action: letting the banks fail, and fail utterly - is
not being done.

~~~
jugad
Fair enough.

Until when should Europe (Germany, France, etc) keep bailing out Greece. They
did it for the last few years. The answer should not be "indefinitely". In
fact, doing it more than 3 times is impossible... the trust is completely
gone. After that, its just charity.

~~~
fit2rule
What does 'bailing out' mean to you - give Greece more loans? That is all that
has happened - the hole was dug deeper. Debt relief is not the same thing.

------
neokya
For better overview of current affair related to Greek crisis, may be read
this [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-
europe-33503955](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33503955)

Above title is not title of the article. Mods please change?

------
atmosx
Greetings from Greece,

You have to understand that Greece is a very young country between that west
and the east that was never modernized to the core. Renaissance came in Europe
when Greece was ruled by the Ottoman empire. Indeed the cultural impact of the
Ottoman empire is extremely strong here, although many people don’t realize
it. The moment a government different from PASOK and ND came to power, was a
pivotal moment in Greece’s “democratic” history (1974 and on). The population
was ready for a change and tried to remove from the government everything the
two other parties resembled: corruption, clientellism and injustice. A lack of
a justice estate is the biggest problem in Greece. There’s not even the hint
of justice.

I voted for SYRIZA and I strongly supported the government until last Monday.
After Varoufakis resignation I knew what to expect but did not wanted to
believe that it was going to actually happen. Well it did in a spectacular way
and I can’t stress how disappointed I feel. No matter what Varoufakis says,
SYRIZA lost the most important battle the first two months and that battle was
with the local oligarchy. I will give you some prominent example of failure
where it matters the most:

\- Rena Dourou, the SYRIZA MP who turned Mayor of Athens right before SYRIZA
came to power, signed a contract with SIEMENS[1]. As far as I’m concerned, she
was bribed, exactly the same way PASOK and ND were bribed in the past by
SIEMENS.

\- Deputy Minister of Finance Nadia Valavani, announces that ship-owners won’t
be taxes because if they do, they will change flag(!). That’s a spectacular
U-Turn from a “left” government. Of course the statement did not hit the
headlines in Greece because we occupy the 99th position at the Freedom press
index.

\- The first thing Minister Lafazanis did were raise the salary of our
national power company called “DEI”. These guys (workers) get paid ~ 1.250
EUR, which is an extremely high salary for public workers. There are DOZENS of
underpaid public servants. Hospitals are running out of syringes and cotton
and this guy has the nerve to give a raise to an already highly paid group of
people!!! The nerve!!!

\- All main private TV stations and newspapers in Greece operate with heavy
losses. They are subsidized by the state and owned by the oligarchs who
effectively keep in the check the government by controlling the
(mis)information. Not one of them was taxed in since January. This is
something that should had been done in the first week of governance. Right
away.

SYRIZA tried to compromise and turn into a new corrupted PASOK with everyone,
but apparently everyone kept spitting them in the face: The local oligarchy
and the Troika at the same time. But IMHO their major failure was the lack of
will to tackle our local oligarchy and bring at least a glimpse of justice and
equality to our country. And you can blame Germany all you want abroad, but
there’s seriously no excuse for not taking action at home. NONE.

As far as the EU/ECB/IMF is concerned. Well, here Varoufakis is at fault: They
SHOULD have prepare a Grexit, as smooth as possible, but they should be ready
for a Grexit. They didn’t (both Varoufakis and Tsipras) even ALLOW the public
conversation to dig on the topic! It was dismissed as soon as someone hinted
the idea. That’s incredibly stupid from someone who is (because I believe he
really is) as smart as Varoufakis.

The result is ridiculous, if not plainly tragic: We actually gave away
sovereignty after holding a referendum. Tsipras probably expected the ‘YES’
vote to win by a large margin getting him effectively off the hook, but that
did not happen and he found himself trapped because it’s crystal clear that at
any cost he does not want to manage a GREXIT but he is totally unfit to manage
a third ‘memoradum’ which involves selling national assets to the best
offerer.

SYRIZA IMHO is politically dead. The entire Greek parliament is totally out of
sync with the Greek society. I’m extremely concerned about what the future
will bring for my country. If Golden Dawn’s percentages grow, I’ll have to
leave the country because I can’t stand those people, but Greece today
resemble very much pre-WW-2 Germany and the TROIKA resembles very much the
winners of the first WW.

If you take anything from this long post is this: The Greeks, especially the
young population, are ready to take any change that will made their life
easier in the long term. But the troika has showed time and again that doesn’t
care about the population. They need a country to blame, do business with our
oligarchs, recycle money through our banks and that’s about it. The local
oligarchs are even worse, so we’re caught between the hammer and the anvil and
I see no way through.

I don’t know what to vote when the time comes, I don’t even know if I wanna
keep following politics at home since everything seems so desperate. Oh, my
prediction is that Germany’s obsessions are going to end the european project
pretty soon. IMHO they already alienated far too many europeans and created a
schism in Europe’s population. Now the European governments are all singing
like a chorus but these governments in Portugal, Italy, Spain, Ireland, UK
will IMHO soon be brought down.

Sorry for the long-long comment, farewell everyone!

[1]
[http://ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_09/03/201...](http://ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_09/03/2015_548022)

~~~
sorincos
That's the real tragedy in all this: not having any spark of hope.
Unfortunately I'm not sure all the SYRIZA voters realize how bad they've been
cheated. But that's history already. What from now? What can the humble Greek
citizen hope, when all s/he gets from the leaders is finger-pointing but no
real measures? I really hope the actual accord (for lack of anything else)
will bring you some stability and you can find a party or something really
representing the _working_ people and recognizing their needs, including the
need to stick with the other Europeans. Yes, we'd very much like to keep you
around, hopefully not with crooks as leaders (and only you alone can manage
that).

------
facepalm
So how does Germany pull off that control? What gives it it's power?

~~~
_rpd
Germany is the largest financial contributor to the bailout fund. It's power
is the power to say "no more."

[http://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-has-a-lot-to-lose-in-
a-g...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-has-a-lot-to-lose-in-a-greek-euro-
exit-1436205505)

~~~
facepalm
So the evilness of Germany is not donating Billions of Euros? Evil is not what
it used to be anymore...

~~~
_rpd
What's more, the founding treaties of the EU make it illegal for one member
state to assume the debts of another member state. And the "no bailout" clause
was added exactly in response to Northern European concerns that they would
eventually be responsible for the debt incurred by Southern Europe.

[http://www.cfr.org/world/eurozone-crisis-historical-
legacy/p...](http://www.cfr.org/world/eurozone-crisis-historical-
legacy/p22932)

------
croce
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ownbzwfyg-4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ownbzwfyg-4)

------
rrss1122
There seems to be a lot of resentment against Germany lately.

To offer an analogy, I see similar resentment against parents among adult
children who are forced to live home. Most often, those adult children got in
over their heads on some kind of loan, most often student loans, and they need
their parents to "bail" them out. They go back home and the parents then set
conditions on them again on how they are to conduct their lives. The condition
that gets the most resentment among adult children is control of the adult
children's finances.

Germany is the parent, Greece is the adult child, and the rest of Europe are
siblings who are turning a blind eye because they are either out in the world
making it or because they also require their parent to bail them out.

It's an economic union. Germany's economy dominates the region, so of course
it will dominate the union.

------
korginator
Well, let's see. Tax collections in Greece are at a little over 10% what's
owed compared to 97.5% in Germany, deficit spending is astronomical, they have
hardly any exports except for tomatoes and olives, have been using cheap
credit to splurge for over a decade with no means of repaying their debts, and
the so-called austerity was a farce in that it failed to achieve any
significant improvement in their financial situation, or the goals they were
meant to reach.

Greece was ranked the most corrupt nation in the EU. Greece has a thriving
black economy which is unofficially at around 35% of the total economy. On top
of that, Greece was understating their deficit figures for years. Their
national debt stands at €340 billion today, give or take a few billion.

Interest rates for Greece hovered at around 18% before they had the Euro, and
not many were willing to lend to them. Later, cheap abundant credit helped
them increase state spending on pensions, jobs, and benefits, all with
borrowed money, while barely being able to manage to pay the interest on their
debts; this brought them great political mileage at the time.

Now that the payments are due, €45 billion has left Greece in Q1 of this year.
On June 15 alone, banks saw cash outflows of €400 million - yes, that's in one
day. Youth unemployment is at 50% and nearly a quarter of a million people
have left Greece for good over the past five years.

Now most of the country is up for sale, right down to their public
infrastructure, ports, and so on, with very few buyers.

Austerity amounts to little when the rot is systemic at this scale. Greece
should have never been in the EU in the first place, and they would have
retained the Drachma if they were truly interested in sustainable long term
stability.

I feel for the Greek people, but a cheap bailout is absolutely not the
solution to this problem today.

Greece was "set up"? Hardly. They set themselves up.

~~~
dpark
> _Tax collections in Greece are at a little over 10% what 's owed compared to
> 97.5% in Germany_

This doesn't pass the sniff test. Greece has revenue around $120 billion. If
they are only collecting 10% of owed taxes, that means they should be
collecting $1.2 trillion, or about 5 times their GDP.

[https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/...](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/geos/gr.html)

------
tonyedgecombe
The current title is not the title of the article, it's a political statement
from Yanis Varoufakis.

~~~
dang
We changed the title from 'Eurogroup “completely and utterly” controlled by
Germany, Greece was “set up”' (<\-- please do not editorialize in submission
titles!) and changed the URL to the transcript of the interview.

------
scribu
Could a mod un-editorialize the title of this submission, please?

------
cjsthompson
Plan for Greece :

1) overthrow parliamentary regime 2) set up a democracy ancient athens style
3) round up professional politicians of all stripes, capitalist thieves
(pleonasm), media whores and economists and put them at work in labor camps.
4) tell troika that they can shove the debt up their arses 5) ban money
(instead create a resource-based economy) 6) epic win

