
The largest cave owner in the U.S. - aaron695
https://www.outsideonline.com/2414888/john-ackerman-caves-minnesota
======
jamest
I was surprised to see this on HN! A story, if you'll permit...

I visited two of Ackerman's caves (Spring Valley and Temple of Doom) in May of
2002. It was a few days shy of high school graduation and summer was starting
to arrive in Minnesota.

My future Firebase co-founder, Andrew, and our high school classmate, Bob,
made the drive down there one Saturday. Bob had been a sort-of pupil of
Ackerman's, helping him explore and map the various caves he had found.

The day started innocuously enough with a visit to the main Spring Valley Cave
that the article references as being previously owned and equipped to give
tours. Bob took us off the steel gantry-ways and into some side passageways
and chambers that were rarely trafficked.

It was the second cave, Temple of Doom, that was the more, ah, interesting
experience. It has only recently been discovered and wasn't fully mapped yet.
We popped open a man-hole cover in the middle of a corn field and dropped down
a ~50 foot steel ladder. From there the cave descended in a spiral, with the
passageway barely able to fit a human. Bob, typically the most composed human
I knew, occasionally burst into fits of expletives, followed by silence.
"Uhhh... Bob, everything OK?". Descending a 20-30 degree downward slope with
inches to spare on every side, occasionally getting stuck, and with no way to
turn-around was hair-raising.

After some undetermined period of time we finally got to the bottom of the
spiral. At this point, Bob announced we could either brace ourselves between
two sheer, very wet, rock faces and climb up ~100 feet without ropes, or go
back the way we came. So... up the rock faces we went. Fortunately nobody
slipped.

I can still viscerally feel the elation of emerging into bright afternoon sun
of the corn field, grateful and relieved to be uninjured.

This was one of the several intense and bonding experiences Andrew and I had
together, and perhaps contributed to why we kept working together despite some
early startup failures.

As for Bob, he kept on spending time with Ackerman, until one day he was
buried alive by a cave entrance collapse. Ackerman dug him out with a backhoe,
but he was a little more wary of caving after.

~~~
janlaureys
Never thought I'd get sweaty hands from reading a Hacker News comment but here
we are. I'm not claustrophobic at all but no way in hell I'm ever doing any
spelunking voluntarily.

~~~
cad1
Years ago I visited Mammoth Cave, KY. There I learned about cave explorer
Floyd Collins. He was trapped in a cave in 1925 and the incident attracted
wide attention. I started reading about Collins and this is still one of the
most terrifying reads for me. I cannot imagine being trapped so tightly,
underground with no light and for so long.

[https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/544782/1925-cave-
rescue-...](https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/544782/1925-cave-rescue-that-
captivated-the-united-states-floyd-collins)

~~~
dhosek
There was a musical made of this in the 90s. I saw it at the Goodman Theatre
in Chicago. Didn't make me as nervous as reading the account of the spiral
passageway barely able to fit a human.

------
guerrilla
It certainly doesn't seem like either private or public ownership is optimal
for this situation and something much more democratic involving all
stakeholders would be beneficial. Interesting case study. I appreciated the
article highlighting the debate.

~~~
jacobush
I think governance in general is a hard problem, and private or public
ownership is not what is going to make or brake it.

The aboriginal sites being exploited in coal mining comes to mind.

------
elihu
Sometimes I wonder how many large caves exist in the world that we simply
don't know about because they have no natural exit and no other easy way to
locate them.

~~~
carapace
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Gray_Park_Cave_discovery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Gray_Park_Cave_discovery)

> The Wells Gray Park Cave discovery of 2018 was of a karst cave in Wells Gray
> Provincial Park, in the Cariboo Mountains in British Columbia, Canada. The
> cave has informally been named Sarlacc's Pit pending an official name.

> The cave may have been snow-covered year-round until the 20th century.

------
rubidium
“ Ackerman grew up in Burnsville, a drab suburb of Minneapolis”

Spent my middle and high school years living there. Can confirm with the
exception of the Minnesota Valley Natural Wildlife refuge. It was in my
backyard and the saving grace of the otherwise bleak suburbs.

On a different note, growing up there you’d hear every year or so of someone
who died in the St. Paul caves due to trapped gases (maybe co2 or methane? ).
Are gases a similar concern in the driftless caves?

~~~
callahad
If I recall correctly, most of the deaths in the St. Paul caves are from
people starting makeshift campfires in areas without any ventilation. Seems to
be backed up by this MPR News article from 2004:
[http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/04/28_ap...](http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/04/28_ap_cavedeaths/)

Generally speaking, you don't worry about breathing in caves: if you can get
there unaided, then so can ambient air. The risks are mainly when you're
traversing a completely flooded portion of the cave (a "sump"), since you
can't be certain that the dry passages on the other side have any exposure to
the outside atmosphere.

Edit: You do have to be wary of rain and flash flooding in the Driftless Area.
It's not fun to see little twigs and leaves plastered to the ceiling in, for
example, Goliath's Cave, since it means that the entire system can flood under
the wrong circumstances. Caves are great fun, but they don't mess around. I'd
encourage anyone interested in caving to reach out to their local clubs; we're
friendly! For folks in the US, the National Speleological Society maintains a
list of "grottos" at
[https://caves.org/committee/i-o/grottos/new_grotto_page-v2.s...](https://caves.org/committee/i-o/grottos/new_grotto_page-v2.shtml).

~~~
Joof
Some caves have a higher level of CO2, ie 'bad air'. You'll probably notice,
one of the more entertaining symptoms of this is a 'feeling of impending
doom'.

~~~
dhosek
I get a feeling of impending doom just reading some of the posts on this
story.

------
basicplus2
Article does not present any evidence of his size or the size of any other
cave owners.

~~~
pfarrell
HN doesn’t do humor, but I had the exact same thought based on the title.

~~~
kinleyd
That was the first thought I had as well. I came looking for kindred souls and
am glad I've found at least a couple.

------
robbyt
St. Paul in the late 90s, there was a series of underground (literally)
parties, known as the "rave in a cave". They took place in the Wabasha caves:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabasha_Street_Caves](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabasha_Street_Caves)

The entrance to where the parties were being held has been sealed, but there
are other various entrances near the river. Every few years some kids get
stuck, and the city tries to restrict entrance. Caves are just too
interesting.

~~~
Accujack
Certain caves were used as speakeasies in the 1920s, too. Mobsters who had an
"agreement" with the Cities of Minneapolis/St. Paul to not cause trouble in
exchange for not being arrested/pursued up here could spend time drinking and
gambling in peace.

------
etherealmachine
For an interesting contrast, check out the history of cave temples in the
karst formations of Southeast Asia. I'm most familiar with those in Malaysia,
like
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_Caves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_Caves).
There it's common for religious groups (Buddhist or Hindu) to purchase a cave
and develop it into a temple, complete with concrete floors and living spaces
for the monks. It's a completely different attitude towards transforming yet
conserving the natural environment that really shocked me coming from American
caves where everything is "look but don't touch."

------
8bitsrule
These caves in SE MN are in whats called the 'Driftless Area' [0] because it
was -not- covered by ice (which would have left 'drift' behind) during recent
glacial periods. But it -was surrounded- by ice. You might guess that as a
result many of the caves may have been created by draining meltwater.

As a result, Ackerman may not have enough money to corner the market!

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driftless_Area](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driftless_Area)

------
roflchoppa
i like caves till the point where you have to squeeze your body in this little
crack. What happens if theres a earthquake when im trying to pass through.

~~~
PopeDotNinja
A while back I visited a cave with a large room that had been previously used
some sort sort of public gatherings. The room was rather wide with no supports
in the middle. A local official had expressed concern that the room was unsafe
and could collapse in an earthquake. The cave operator informed that official
that the cave room had been just like that for millions of years, and it was
probably safer than any above ground building.

------
bambam24
Why sharing paid articles?

~~~
EwanToo
It didn't ask me to pay, it showed a "Please donate" overlay with an option to
continue without donating?

~~~
logfromblammo
It's not a pay-wall; it's a beg-wall.

