
Apple expands independent repair program to Mac after US antitrust investigation - irontinkerer
https://techcrunch.com/2020/08/17/apple-expands-its-independent-repair-program-to-mac-after-us-antitrust-investigation-examined-companys-repair-policies/
======
rasz
Just as a reminder, their phone "independent repair program" has you signing
rights to your business away (you are forced to let apple audit you at any
time, you have to share personal client data on all of your clients with
apple. All of this not limited to Apple repair part of your business) for the
right to:

\- remove battery / screen from client device

\- send battery / screen to Apple with all clients personal information

\- wait for replacement unit (at a price not dissimilar to the price of same
model 100% working used device)

\- mount new battery / screen after about a week

Its designed in a way to not make any economical sense, but sound like Apple
is a real independent repair champion.

~~~
abawany
IME, they've really hobbled the functionality of independent repair shops,
making it necessary to supplicate to the Apple Store. I was trying to get the
battery replaced in a 2015 MBP and the independent shops were 'required' to
keep my machine for about 7 days since they had to first 'diagnose' that the
battery was dying, order it, wait for it to arrive, and then replace it. In
contrast, one could make an appointment at the Apple Store to get the battery
replaced while one waited.

~~~
somehnguy
You could have also done it yourself in about 15 minutes. I've done my 2015
MBP twice now, it's not hard at all.

I'm not sure why people in tech bother paying inflated prices for easy
repairs. Just because you work with software doesn't mean you have to be
afraid to turn a screwdriver ;)

~~~
abawany
After my futile efforts to get it repaired at the independent shop and the
Apple Store (they never came for me even with my appointment and I wasted an
hour sitting in that place for no reason), I bought a third party battery and
a set of guitar strings to replace it myself. I was successful but the battery
was garbage so I had to return it and go back to the original swelled battery
to be able to use the laptop albeit plugged in; I gave up and asked work to
order me a new MBP instead. Total waste of time: 3 hours plus a perfectly good
MBP going probably to the landfill thanks to a difficulty that Apple created
for no good reason. Edit2: the guitar strings were used to saw off the nasty
glue strips holding the original battery, along with d-limonene as a solvent
to weaken their deathgrip.

In contrast, replacing the battery in my HP Elite x360 was a piece of cake -
no nasty glue, no proprietary screws, and oem batteries available everywhere.
HP sent me the battery under warranty (shipped next day) when I called them to
buy one and I was able to replace it in minutes. Now that's a repairable
product. Edit: clarified that HP in fact covered the battery cost under the
included 3 year warranty.

Edit3: want to say that it was a bit uncalled-for of you to assume that I
couldn't do the replacement myself. This was a work laptop (i.e. not my
property) so I didn't feel it was my place to dink with it.

~~~
unishark
> In contrast, replacing the battery in my HP Elite x360 was a piece of cake -
> no nasty glue, no proprietary screws, and oem batteries available
> everywhere.

Replacing the battery for my Surface Pro was a different story. The shop told
me there's a high probability that removing the screen will break it. Warrant
repairs from Microsoft consist of them taking your surface and shipping you a
refurbished machine in exchange.

~~~
abawany
I remember the earlier Surface machines got a pretty bad repairability rating
from iFixit but it seems newer models get better ratings. I bought the HP
precisely because of its repairability.

------
mehrdadn
The independent repair program is _designed to destroy_ independent repair
businesses and mislead people in the process. It forces their customers to
wait 1-2 weeks for any repair (even just a battery replacement) after being
forced to provide their personal identifying information, and even then, does
not provide parts for anything nontrivial at all. It ensures repair shops
don't actually stay in business—customers wouldn't wait 1-2 weeks for just a
battery replacement. Louis Rossmann explains it:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPRjVvccQVM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPRjVvccQVM),
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rCUF-V1esM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rCUF-V1esM)

------
ComputerGuru
Just for some perspective, I can call up my Dell small business sales rep (who
reached out to me after I bought just three or four machines over a period of
some years) and give him an obscure part number. He says he needs a minute to
look up the part, etc and asks if I’m taking this to a Dell-authorized
technician; I say no. He takes advantage of how long it takes for the likely
instantaneous result to pop up on the screen to ask if I’m interested in the
specials he has going on for business laptops, I politely decline but express
interest on behalf of future me. He gives me a quote for the part around 1.5x
to 2x what the Chinese knockoff that won’t last a week (I know because I
tried) costs, I agree and give him my credit card number which they refuse to
keep on file, then he throws in free next business day shipping. I get the
part, reference the service and repair manuals Dell makes freely available,
and do the repair myself. Oh, and depending on the part in question, there’s a
good chance that it is under a two year warranty even though I did the repair
myself.

For Apple, I buy used parts in the hope that they come from a genuine device
being parted out on eBay each for 50% of the cost of the original device
because I know all the new parts are not just fake but bad fakes. I get a part
that is past its expiration date, rather abused, but will work. I soak the
MacBook in corrosive chemical baths to get the industrial super-strength glue
(thank God it’s not epoxy?) to loosen up a little before I get out my exacto,
needle nose pliers, a scraper, and a plastic pry tool. I pray nothing breaks
while I try to get the part out. Something inevitably breaks (also, try to
avoid piercing a battery while you pry it out; li-ion batteries do not like to
be manhandled). The cost of a replacement part does not make economic sense. I
either let the product sit disused on a shelf hoping to find the part cheaper
at a later date, hock the device on eBay for pennies on the dollar for a parts
shark to snap up then part out, or throw it in the trash because I’d rather
not sell my eight hundred dollar phone for a hundred dollars and this at least
gives me the satisfaction of cursing at Apple while I do it.

(Yes, the Apple story is an amalgam of many different adventures with
different endings over a decade with many different devices, the majority of
which were either ultimately written off or else repaired at prices that
didn’t make much sense.)

Oh, in addition to sometimes doing my own repairs, I’m also the final arbiter
when it comes to all IT purchases for a school. When I’m asked if we
can/should get a fleet of Macs for the faculty and students, I insist we get
Thinkpads or Latitudes instead.

~~~
LockAndLol
Apple really doesn't like the environment, does it? You're forced to get a new
device every time.

God for business, shit for the world. But Apple customers don't seem to care
one bit.

~~~
justaguyhere
I've a macbook air which is 9 years old, which never gave me a problem until
now even after tons of abuse. My work laptop is Dell, about 4 years old - wifi
drops at random, battery has swollen etc.

Maybe the reason Apple customers don't care is because their machines give
them less trouble? And they have more disposable income?

Not defending Apple here (my next computer is definitely not going to be
Apple), just trying to understand how Apple users think.

The thing that sucks is other industries/companies copying Apple. Lenovo
computers are increasingly becoming harder to repair. Expensive, big machines
like tractors are being locked down etc. Samsung made fun of apple when they
removed the headphone jack but now Samsung and everyone else is doing the
same, trying to squeeze more money out of the customer, airpods style.

Maybe we should make a list of repair friendly, environment friendly and
customer friendly hardware and stick only to those.

~~~
LockAndLol
For your anecdote there are many others to the contrary. 2 colleagues with
Macbook Pros had to hand them in after about 3 years.

A friend bought her Macbook in 2016 or so as a student and it went started
having screen problems after a year... so she promptly bought a new one
because repairing cost as much a new one. A loan was necessary for that too
(poor student).

There was a shared Macbook Pro at work with a bad screen that also had a
faulty RAM and it too was easier to simply replace than pay for repair. I was
told there was some kind of support contract on it too.

A friend got a secondhand Macbook from 2012 that got slower over the years.
Still had a CD/DVD drive and booting from it took about 2 minutes, more until
actually accepted input. I resized the Mac partition and installed ubuntu
18.04 on the other partition and that booted more quickly + ran more fluidly
with KDE. Her laptop wasn't supported by Apple anymore and she couldn't update
the OS either.

I honestly don't see how Mac is easier to use, more reliable or even better
supported. Imo, it's just habit, a flashy UI and the "exclusivity" price
point. It's a status symbol more than anything. Giving that up is difficult
for many, I assume.

------
legulere
This is Apple trying to do the least that allows them to get away from more
regulation.

~~~
maire
The goal should be self repair. I want the manuals and parts so I can make my
own repair.

~~~
robertoandred
And then someone will mess up the repair and blame Apple for a malfunctioning
device or demand they fix it for free.

~~~
garbagetime
And then what?

~~~
fernandotakai
right? ok so they complain, apple proves they used 3rd party repair and...
that's it?

i mean, we do that with literally everything else -- why is apple special?

------
dathinab
Apple independent repair is a _scam_ , and public media should call it out on
it.

Not only are the terms extremely abusive, what you get from them is a joke.

The benefits of independent repair is that they can repair the actual damage,
e.g. by replacing some broken capacitors, connectors or ships on the
motherboard. Which might sound supper hard but this are skills anyone who has
a stable hand, reasonable good hand eye coordination and is bit clever or at
least not stupid can learn in a view month maybe, half a year if they have
proper guidance.

Heck anyone who enters the program will not only not get support from Apple to
do proper repair they will lose their ability to do so because Apple forbids
them to have potential replacement parts for this chips around... (And also
makes sure they are not available on the marked.)

------
sushshshsh
Paging Louis Rossmann for how this actually is just lip service and not an
"expansion" of any rights at all for anyone but Apple

~~~
simik
There you go:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPRjVvccQVM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPRjVvccQVM)

------
sushicat
Based on my repair experience back in China, I understand and support Apple
doing this. My opinion is based on the personal experience I had before, and I
support people with different opinions.

Back the days (and I still believe it's the case right now) in China there are
a lot of phone repair shops ran by individuals or small businesses, and those
shops are not certified by any programs, they "operate" by someone has skills
to repair electronics. I was tricked by them multiple times.

The first time I was repairing my Nokia N95 with a broken screen (N95 has an
exposed "soft" screen), I sent it in to one of those shops; a few hours later,
I got a call with an estimated price, and I accepted. Until months later I
realized the price they charged me almost doubled the price it supposed to be
if I went to a Nokia office service center. I agree I had some fault on this
one, but I'm not a pro-consumer that knows everything.

The second time I was repairing a SE M608. Based on the lesson from last time,
I refused the price they gave to me and want to get another quote from SE
certified repair center. Then the latter told me my phone's internal
components was swapped and no longer the original one. I suppose that was done
overnight in the repair shop after I refuse their price.

Not to mention my friend got working components in her phone "repaired".

Then I never go to independent or 3rd party repair shops anymore, no matter
they're certified or not, because I don't trust them.

I know HN have lots of people know how to repair stuff or able to learn from
iFixit, but that's not for everyone. I strongly support Apple put more control
and audit to the IRP or ASP to make sure they don't trick their customers. On
the other hand, I also think Apple should sell repair components directly on
their website, so anyone can repair by themselves if they want to.

~~~
userbinator
My repair experience in China was completely the opposite, and I think you
made the first mistake: leaving the device with the shop for any length of
time and out of your sight.

Some time ago, in Shenzhen, I saw a friend get his laptop component-level-
troubleshooted and repaired while we waited and watched. It was a busy shop
too, with multiple stalls and a lineup of others waiting for service.

------
tmaly
I have a 2013 MBP that started random crashing several years back. I took it
into a Mac store and they could not help me. I have always suspected a
hardware issue. Repair for a new board was just not worth the cost.

If this works and it would bring the cost down, I would still consider trying
to get this machine fixed.

~~~
rasz
It will cost you ~$450 in a real independent shop. Apples only option for
repairing logic boards was always swapping whole thing for $850-1600 or up-
sell to a new device.

~~~
cmroanirgo
This is my experience too. An unexpected failure on my 2013 mba and Apple
suggested new logic boards with no guarantee of fix the problem & recommended
a new mba. I literally went across the road and a flat fee of $500 got me
going again. He desoldered a few components and replaced with parts taken from
a spare mba mobo. Couldn't be happier.

~~~
mikepurvis
I was a 2015 MBP owner for many years and suffered through being stuck on 8GB
of RAM the whole time because Apple refuses to swap logic boards up to
different specs than the original SKU.

I only realised later on that the indie shop near me would have been willing
to do that upgrade, or perhaps swapped my machine over to a 16GB one they had
traded in with a smashed screen.

------
xhruso00
Recently my MBP 2015 couldn’t boot because of the dead battery. I asked
authorized repair centre and they quoted 400EUR as they need to order whole
topcase. This is such a ripoff from Apple. Almost no one ships batteries cross
border now. Finding a good replacement is almost an impossible task. The only
thing I want the battery to be safe (not catching on fire or damaging my MBP)

~~~
tim333
>Almost no one ships batteries cross border now.

I'm a little puzzled. I went on amazon uk where I happened to be and searched
"macbook pro battery 2015" and got dozens of results, some with 5* reviews and
from reputable companies like Sloda for example. Prices around 70 EUR. I
swapped my 2013 Air battery the other day which takes about 2 mins. Not sure
how hard it is on the 2015 pro.

~~~
xhruso00
I bought the so called 5* battery. It seems good but it degrades quickly after
few charges. People review mostly in the first week (battery works and seems
good), but the battery will lose original capacity in few weeks. If you read
carefully you will find these reviews. In my case I am down 10% capacity after
11 cycles. PS: Battery is a sensitive item and cannot be shipped by plane.
This explains the cross border problems.

------
TheBillyMania
Reading the comments below, Apple is damned it they do and damned if they
don’t.

~~~
damnyou
That is the only correct state of affairs for corporations (and governments)
as big and powerful as Apple. Constant criticism no matter what they do. It's
the only way to hold them even remotely accountable.

~~~
sebmellen
I don't know why you're getting downvoted for this. Power is kept in check by
criticism and close observation.

If Apple weren't held accountable at all, you can be sure they'd declare
themselves a sovereign dictatorship w/ Mr. Cook at the supreme leader (/s of
course, but...?).

~~~
damnyou
Is it truly a surprise why I keep being downvoted for pointing out abuses of
power by Hacker News's favorite megacorp?

------
oxfordmale
Lack of repairability is the main reason I do not buy Mac Books. Yes, they are
more reliable, however, if you encounter a problem, you endure a long wait at
a Mac Book repair centre that is miles away. My work laptop developed an issue
while I was on holidays in Spain, and if it had been a PC it could have been
easily fixed by any of the local repair centres. Of course Apple being Apple,
I would have to drive 2 hours to the nearest Apple repair centre with no
guarantee it would have been fixed in time before I returned back home.

~~~
viridian
Last I checked apple was forth in manufacture reliability, behind Asus,
Toshiba, and Sony. They are better than average, but people really
overestimate the build quality of the macbook.

~~~
junar
That must have been a really long time ago, if you're listing Toshiba and
Sony, which are both gone from the laptop market, and had a tiny market share
for many years before their exit.

------
qppo
This may be controversial (or maybe not, this is HN and not reddit), but
there's a question I've never seen answered.

I don't really care about how easy it is to repair my phone, or at least not
as much as I care about using iOS. I knew if my iPhone were to break I'd have
to take it to Apple, so I pay for Apple Care (like I pay for iCloud for my
backups).

I don't feel like I've been swindled. I feel like I made the purchasing
decisions that reflect my budget and concerns.

Similarly for laptops. I had a Macbook Pro that died from a burnt out reverse
voltage protection diode (probably cost less than a penny). Apple quoted me
the cost of the entire main board. My next laptop was not a Mac, it was a
device that was easier to repair and upgrade because that reflected what I
valued in a personal laptop.

Why should companies not be allowed to compete along this axis of features?
Why do we need to kneecap one business model in favor of another, and limit
engineers ability to make design decisions because that business model is not
viable?

Surely the markets have spoken. Apple's customers don't care about having a
right to repair. If they did, Apple would be selling machines that could be
repaired by anyone.

~~~
zakki
Because there is other issues like e-waste. With repair we expect less
e-waste. As you know Apple repair tends to replace the whole things instead of
the broken part.

~~~
ghostwriter
Could you show numvers regarding difference in e-waste amounts with repairable
parts and without them? Repair tooling and components generate waste too,
including waste in logistics.

------
acd
I think Apple should make a developer/hacker/ifixit score 10 version of their
devices. As a consumer you could then choose between the consumer design
version or the hacker version.

The hacker version of the hardware should have user serviceable parts such as
motherboard, ssd, battery, screen, memory, keyboard and use standard philips
or torx screws.

------
bluedino
I remember last year when Best Buy stores all became AASP’s...except they
don’t really do any work on Macs at all. They send them out to their service
centers and don’t even use OEM batteries in their replacements, for example.

With the nearest Apple store two hours away (and not even open this year), it
would be nice if Best Buy could do the work...sigh

~~~
snapetom
Authorized Service Providers and Independent Repair Provider are two separate
programs. IRP was created a few years ago specifically for iOS devices. This
article says that it's expanding to Macs.

ASPs have been around for decades. Computing stores in many US
colleges/universities are ASPs. In the past, when Macs were much simpler, they
were allowed to do a fair amount of work on then. However, you're right. As
Macs have changed and everything has become fused together, ASPs have
basically just become an interface between the customer and real Apple.
Basically a "Genius" bar not in an Apple Store.

------
musiccog
For an up-to-date comment from Louis Rossman (amazing component level Mac
repairs) hit this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPRjVvccQVM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPRjVvccQVM)

------
tommymachine
Every repair to my iPhone that has been done outside of Apple certified
channels has ended in needing a replacement device. Have heard/ read some
horror stories of Apple Store repairs, although have yet to experience any
myself. Personally I haven’t had a single repair from a third party that has
actually been passable.

All this to say that I’m not really seeing a huge benefit of right to repair
for consumers. A race to the bottom in price means that there’s no money left
to pay/train repair techs well enough to perform the repairs properly (i.e.
without taking shortcuts/rushing & thereby causing further problems). This has
been my experience so far with the third party shops vs Apple Certified.

~~~
grugagag
I didnt have the same experience. I repaired a few Iphones at an indy repair
shop and the repair was solid and way cheaper than with apple.

~~~
nottorp
Word of mouth helps here.

I repaired an iPad and two iPhones at indy shops. Shop #1 did the iPad kinda
right, except the one button(tm) was crooked after the screen replacement.
Shop #2 did the two iPhones _perfectly_. Even the one with water damage.

So just ask around.

------
snapetom
Years later, and I've had a ton of problems actually finding an Independent
Repair provider. As far as I can tell Apple does not actually maintain a
directory, and it's left for local repair shops to market/advertise. The
later, then is highly dependent on their Google ranking skills.

I went to a local repair shop for years. I went in a third time in a year to
change a battery on an iPhone 8. Each time they apologized, blamed it on a bad
shipment of batteries, and repaired it for free. However, on that third time,
I chatted them up about the IRP. The guy got _extremely_ hostile about the
program.

Screw that place. Took me a while, but I finally did find a IRP after much
googling and asking around.

~~~
rasz
Google adsense banned repair and data recovery from advertising on their
platform "We need to discuss Google's anti-repair advertising discrimination."
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUBJ2LD-
Dao](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUBJ2LD-Dao)

~~~
qppo
I just searched google for repair and data recovery for several of my devices
with adblock disabled and it turned up several local shops. So seems to be
provably untrue.

I kind of lost faith in Rossman after he blamed Apple for Customs agents
seizing counterfeit parts.

~~~
oehpr
Can you detail your procedure here? I just attempted this and I can't see any
advertisements.

on firefox and chromium I searched these phrases without adblock and saw no
ads

    
    
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