
Our statement on the results of the Jacob Appelbaum investigation - ejcx
https://blog.torproject.org/blog/statement-0
======
Sir_Cmpwn
This sort of thing really merits a judicial investigation. It's not
appropriate to place these issues in the eyes of the public until then, and
I've never appreciated these sorts of articles in my feed.

Some will be swayed by the fact that the internal investigation turned up some
legitimate claims, but if the judicial system disagrees then this guy's life
is already ruined, and I don't think that's appropriate. The whole situation
reflects poorly on everyone involved.

~~~
dublinben
>This sort of thing really merits a judicial investigation

The victims involved in this have specifically asked this to not happen. I'm
sure you can understand why the members of a community like this would have
personal or political reasons to avoid a judicial investigation.

~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
I don't buy that. This sort of event will ruin Jacob's life. You think there's
any chance he'll ever get a job again? I think you have to be held
accountable, legally, if you want to bring forward acusations that can do
that.

~~~
wolfgke
My answer to this is very simple: It is a property of a state of law that no
one is to be considered guilty unless it can be proved by a court. In this
sense Jacob Appelbaum is to be considered innocent.

~~~
jethro_tell
Legally, he is considered innocent. No charges have been brought forward, and
no legal investigation is under way.

It is the right of most organizations in most states/countries to exclude
people of their choosing. They have verified a couple complaints and decided
he was enough like a person they wanted to exclude. Which it sounds like he
was doing from his side as well.

So I'd say that legally, he is being considered innocent.

This is like 'I can say whatever I want without the consequences of my peers
because of the first amendment.' The right to free speech and the right to be
innocent until proven guilty apply to a citizens relationship with the
government.

------
specialist
From the blog post:

 _" The investigation also identified two additional people as having engaged
in inappropriate conduct, and they are no longer involved with the Tor
Project."_

Damn.

This effort feels like the kind of deep introspection that every organization
should undertake. Every org has their bad apples. But as of yet, there's no
norms for addressing them.

 _" code of conduct"_, etc

Thank you. This is excellent news. These types of innovations in governance
will become the norm. Thank you for leading the way.

------
Kinnard
Does this bring to mind for anyone else movements crumbling from the inside
due to clever sabotage? Huey Newton come to mind?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party#COINTELPRO](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party#COINTELPRO)

I'm not saying that's what's going on here.

But it comes to mind.

~~~
Analemma_
> I'm not saying that's what's going on here. But it comes to mind.

Stop with this Fox News bullshit. If you have a theory about what's happening
here, own it - enough of these "I'm not saying... " non-accusation
accusations.

~~~
Kinnard
I'm actually not informed enough to make any accusations. But I can say what
reading about this brings to mind.

~~~
VonGuard
Totally unrelated. The Panthers were actually taking charge of their own
community to police it because the police would not. They fed the hungry and
took care of the poor in their communities because people would not. The FBI
then ruined them by selling them illegal guns through Richard Aoki, and
arresting the people who bought the guns.

Jake, on the other hand, talked at conferences and took credit for tech work.
Then he raped some people. Plus, he's one dood. Sooooooo, no, no similarities
at all, actually.

~~~
Kinnard
There was an active campaign of misinformation by the FBI to turn Panthers
against each other and discredit Party members.

It worked too . . .

Again, I'm not arguing that's what's going on here

~~~
dublinben
>Again, I'm not arguing that's what's going on here

Then why bring it up in the first place?

~~~
mr_spothawk
i think it's relevant to consider if this is a COINTELPRO type operation. and
important, given the treatment of what's-his-face, who wound up in the
Ecuadorian embassy.

that said, it seems like we can dismiss the likelihood of a COINTELPRO-type
operation happening right now. rather, it seems that Jake's a snake... sadly.
Sad for the folks at tor who had to put up with it. Sad for all the chumps who
are distracted from the importance of Tor, in favor of disputing the validity
of claims about sexual harassment (or worse).

maybe Applebaum is a narc?

~~~
VonGuard
Why would the DOD need a narc inside Tor, when it's the single largest funder
of the project?

------
fdsaaf
The people who are the brains behind the project can always fork. An
organization that's turned inward and primarily concerns itself with rules,
codes of conduct, procedures, and investigations will always lose to an
organization full of people who are passionate about the problem and the code.

~~~
jessaustin
Haha that's funny, imagining this self-aggrandizing asshole forking Tor and
then getting anything done.

[EDIT: still I upvoted, because every other top-level comment is bonkers.]

~~~
fdsaaf
The pattern I've seen over and over again is you have a core group of creators
who are talented, but prickly or obnoxious in some way. The project creators
spend years of their lives building the project and making it successful. Then
others come into the project, and use real or imagined personal offenses to
boot the creators out of the project. These usurpers don't have talent, but
because the project is successful already, the impact of booting the creators
doesn't become apparent for a while. The project, however, cut off from its
engine, stagnates and dies.

Best example? Apple.

Maybe Appelbaum bucks this trend by not having the talent to balance his
flaws. I don't know. But I'm pattern-matching against the phenomenon I
described above, and so far, it looks like a perfect match.

~~~
jessaustin
Appelbaum had a fair number of commits, 2008-2011. [0] There isn't much
recently, and overall one doesn't get the impression that he'll be able to
transition from his recent evangelist role to that of a hard-charging
developer of his own fork.

[0]
[https://github.com/torproject/tor/graphs/contributors](https://github.com/torproject/tor/graphs/contributors)

------
Overtonwindow
Putting the court of public opinion aside for a moment, I think it's good for
a company to hire an outside investigator to get to the truth, but I'm also
concerned that when you get right down to it, it's the company that is to be
protected. Yes they may get rid of bad employees, yes they may project a
transparent investigation and its results, but at the end of the day it
doesn't really do much for the people involved. It only serves to protect the
company. Out of this I would like to see Tor and other silicon valley
companies focus more on protecting the rights of employees, both those harmed,
and those accused, until all the evidence is in, and then take steps to remedy
the situation for those employees. So many of these investigations, from
GitHub and Go Grid, to now Tor, is about protecting the companies and their
executives. Only when that changes will things be better.

~~~
jessaustin
"Tor" is not a company. The Tor Project is an international organization
responsible only to its members, not to any investors.

