
Ford Eyes Use of Customers’ Personal Data to Boost Profits - arayh
https://threatpost.com/ford-eyes-use-of-customers-personal-data-to-boost-profits/139209/
======
softwaredoug
I remember thinking GDPR was yet another intrusive EU bureaucratic exercise.
Now I wish it was the norm in the US.

I’m starting to think at a minimum it should be the floor of how data
professionals ethically use user data.

~~~
switch007
I think it's early days to judge the effects of the GDPR. If websites are
anything to go by, the primary effect on cars will be (if not already) pop ups
on the touchscreen to agree to the new T&Cs.

~~~
taejo
As long as those T&Cs have a "no" button which still lets me drive the car
(which most interpretations of the GDPR not made by surveillance companies
themselves seem to require) I'm happy.

------
janesvilleseo
It’s not just Ford. Here is an article about GM. This is just the beginning of
how they will monetize their product. Well it’s not a product anymore it will
transition into a service as car ownership fades away.

Watch these ads for a reduced ride fee

[https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/17/17990052/gm-radio-
listen...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/17/17990052/gm-radio-listen-
tracking-habits-advertising-future)

~~~
hi5eyes
verge also did a podcast with the head of ford
[https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/vox/the-
vergecast/e/5631243...](https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/vox/the-
vergecast/e/56312430)?

[https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/18/17872198/ford-
autonomous-...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/18/17872198/ford-autonomous-
vehicle-llc-sherif-marakby-interview)

------
im_down_w_otp
I look forward to the dash lights of my car being sporadically replaced w/ ads
for the very car I've already purchased.

------
samfisher83
They see a google and facebook which are young companies which are worth more
than every auto company in the world combined and they are tying to copy that.
Most of these auto companies are 100+ years old and all together are worth
less than google and facebook. Google and Facebook make almost all their money
through ads.

~~~
Sylos
Which I think is a dangerous train to be getting on.

The GDPR is likely only the first such law, other countries will also enact
some form of privacy laws. And the first round of lawsuits from the GDPR are
still underway. Once those have gone through, things should hopefully change
quite a bit more still, as most companies are still in violation of the GDPR.

And if that all does go through, the business model of Google and Facebook is
going to become much less profitable.

------
mikestew
"Sales are down, anyone have an explanation?"

"Well, sir, it seems young people today just aren't as enamored with cars as
with previous generations."

"Is there anything to be done?"

"Privacy has been in the news a lot lately. What if...I'm just spitballin'
here...but what if we made our products even _less_ appealing? Have the CEO
rattle off all the shit we know about customers, and then talk about how we're
going to MON-OH-TIZE the shit out of those data? I mean, nothing else is
working."

"Out-STANDING, Johnson. I see a promotion in your future!"

~~~
oliv__
Could that possibly have _anything_ to do with the fact that cars today are
only a shadow of what they were back then.

They are all the same roundish blob of mass, with no particular shape at all,
no angles, HUGE and all around cheap and plasticky.

~~~
mikestew
Back when, exactly? Because if you're complaining about size, I remember when
a '70s Dodge Dart passed for "compact car". (For reference, youngin's, you
could put multiple bodies in the trunk of a Dodge Dart.) And a shadow of what?
Gas-guzzling V8s that put out a whopping 250bhp? 350bhp if you were lucky?
With drum brakes to haul yer ass down to zero? My 72 year old mother drives a
'16 Corvette that puts out 450bhp and gets 25mpg. It'll stop so fast you can
feel your retinas loosening. I'd have to take it to a track to get it out of
shape, I dare not test its handling limits on a public road. All for $50K.
(EDIT: oh, and aesthetics? I _loathed_ those swoopy, gaudy, plastic
penismobiles. Until I saw the new ones and said, "I would now like to own a
Corvette, for it is much hotness.") Other examples abound. If you're into
cars, there is no better time than now.

No, I think it has more to do with the collective realization that maybe a car
is less a ticket to freedom and more an albatross around the neck of its
owner. Expensive, dirty, and in urban areas an increasingly annoying way to
get around. I was thinking just yesterday, as the fuel light came on in our
ICE car, "gawd, what a pain in the arse these things are. I'll be glad when
_all_ of the vehicles in our house are electric." And I'm old.

Or more simply, maybe we collectively figured out that automobiles make a poor
substitute for a penis.

~~~
wcarron
While I disagree about EVs (they are the devil's making. Gimme that sweet,
sweet rumble of a V8 and the connection of a manual gearbox), I think your
other point is, well...on point.

There's never been a better time if you're a "car guy/gal", except maybe the
90s. The ZR1, ZL1, Shelby GT350, 911 991.2, Demon, M2, Stinger, Q70, Golf,
WRX, Focus RS, etc. Like, damn, that list of solid cars could just go on
forever. Haven't even mentioned any supercars, yet.

And the technology in cars is incredible. It's almost standard now to have
6-piston Brembo discs up front on a performance car. Suspension is insane,
too, these days.

~~~
gargravarr
As much as I love the rumble of an ICE (the Japanese straight-6 is my aural
drug of choice), its days are numbered. We're closing in on a future where
gasoline is too expensive due to rarity, too polluting or just too socially
unacceptable to power cars with. As a pure mode of transport, EVs tick all the
boxes, and they've even proven to be performant, too - even the best drag
racer is going to struggle to match a machine with maximum torque available
for 95% of its rev range, from zero.

Embrace the electric!

~~~
lozaning
I'll drive my twin turbo straight six till it wont run any more!

That being said I welcome what i perceive to be the coming days of electric
wrenching. Once someone make a an electric motor kit that works as a drop in
replacement for an LS engine things I think will get really interesting. I'd
love to build an all electric rat rod.

~~~
gargravarr
And if it's Japanese, it'll continue running for decades. Particularly the
Toyota M and JZ series - just about indestructible.

Agreed, I would love to retrofit an electric power train in a mk2 Supra -
attach the motor directly to the rear diff and fill it with batteries to the
weight of the ICE/gearbox plus full fuel tank, and it could be a really potent
sleeper.

------
wcarron
Welp, guess I won't be purchasing the mustang I wanted. This has got to stop.
Like the final paragraph states: If I pay for a vehicle in cash, I damn well
don't feel like paying with my privacy and data, too.

This is the very same reason I'll never use Windows. Telemetry is an invasion
of privacy. It's also why the "right to repair" is such an important issue.
Owners of cars (or any device, for that matter) should be able to go into the
software (including breaking encryption) and disable or remove components that
report data to external sources.

If I want cheap services in exchange for data, I'll go with Lyft. Fuck
yourself, Hackett.

~~~
djrogers
> If I pay for a vehicle in cash, I damn well don't feel like paying with my
> privacy and data, too.

Well, to be fair all of the data the CEO was talking about wouldn’t be in play
if you actually paid in cash - he specifically called out the data collected
in the loan process, not data obtained from the vehicle itself.

Of course slippery slopes are a thing for a reason...

~~~
Deinos
In that case, I am sure they would be ok with a longer term and 0% APR at a
minimum for the data provided...

------
mox1
Fords 2020 R&D Budget:

1\. Battery technology - 5%

2\. Lighter weight materials - 5%

3\. safer cars - 5%

4\. Popup ads in the windshield - 85%

What could go wrong?!

~~~
Ibethewalrus
“Insert link to ad in car scene from Talladega Nights” ... Found it!

[https://youtu.be/Bvi9zpHlrvg](https://youtu.be/Bvi9zpHlrvg)

------
sbhn
Considering that your web activity generates enough money to keep large
amounts of people employed, your driving activity would to. I can see Free car
journeys in exchange for your attention so that it can be sold to advertisers
along with your current location. Some examples are, you are approaching Mac
Donald’s, or a competing petrol station, a competing supermarket, or hardware
store.

~~~
Skunkleton
Where does it end? At some point a real profit generating product must be
sold, otherwise who is paying for ads?

------
Rainymood
Just like any other good hackernews reader, I read the comments first and only
then decide whether to read the article. As I read this post and there were no
comments, I'll take the liberty of trying to provide a nice comment that might
or might not induce you to read the rest of the article.

Ford CEO Jim Hackett said this in a podcast:

>“The issue in the vehicle, see, is: We already know and have data on our
customers. By the way, we protect this securely; they trust us. We know what
people make. How do we know that? It’s because they borrow money from us. And
when you ask somebody what they make, we know where they work, you know. We
know if they’re married. We know how long they’ve lived in their house because
these are all on the credit applications. We’ve never ever been challenged on
how we use that. And that’s the leverage we got here with the data.”

He explicitly stated "we protect this securely", a statement that I am
extremely cautious about and wouldn't touch with a ten feet pole. Just this
statement from the CEO has cemented my idea to never ever buy a Ford wagon.

Of course, a backlash on Twitter ensued, as some user responded:

>“I heard it yesterday, and was appalled,” tweeted another. “No concern
whatsoever for privacy and no reflection on whether or not this is a GOOD
thing. Talked about linking with personal medical data while in the vehicle.
No thought to ethical considerations. Another Zuckerberg. Disturbing.”

Ford is failing financially and as Ford is a company, it will do anything to
stay alive, self-preservation, very human, but of course a company would
rather stay alive exploiting our data than to make a gracious exit:

>With sales of vehicles flagging worldwide, the company is finding itself
running out of financial freeway, so to speak. And even in the U.S., its
strongest market, Ford is seeing little vehicular success of late beyond sales
of its trucks and SUVs). Accordingly, the automaker is wisely taking steps to
be more fully integrated into people’s lives, by expanding into ancillary
businesses that at first would seem to run counter to its mission.

The beginning of the post is basically fear mongering (and I'm glad I read on)
as later a Spokesperson for Ford is being quoted saying the following:

>“In the podcast ... Jim Hackett was painting a picture of the future
possibilities of data use given the long-term relationship and trust we have
with our customers,” she said. “Specifically, it is important to know we do
not sell or monetize information from customer credit applications. We take
seriously our obligations related to how we use this information. With regard
to all data use, we are committed to protecting customer privacy and we do
that by ensuring transparency and appropriate consent in the collection and
use of all customer data.”

In the end it says this

>This story was updated at 5:25 p.m. EST with comments from Ford’s
spokesperson.

In other words, this article was first published without quotes from the
spokesperson, maybe Ford saw the article and felt pressured?

Anyway, I think the article is mostly fear-mongering amongst our more privacy
oriented people, but at the same time I will keep a closer eye on Ford.

~~~
pintxo
> we do that by ensuring transparency and appropriate consent in the
> collection and use of all customer data.

I read this as: "We will make sure that we will hide deep down in the terms of
service you consent to us selling you data to the highest bidder"

~~~
nkrisc
Yes. "Appropriate" consent simply means "legally defensible" consent. This is
a reassurance meant for shareholders, not end users.

------
nighthawk1
Ford: Ford reiterated that it “will deliver on the company’s commitment of 100
percent connectivity of new vehicles in the United States by 2019"

I think an easy next step would be to display ads on the console when the
vehicle is stopped. Would be fairly easy software wise and that ad model is
already working with Waze.

------
ape4
Just click on "Skip Ad" so you can adjust the fan.

~~~
gargravarr
Then an unskippable ad for Burger King before you're able to roll down the
window as you pull up at the McDonalds drive-thru.

------
vernie
I guess they gave up on fixing their dogshit powertrains.

------
quest88
This article reports on what was said on a podcast and then turns speculation.
What a sensational headline and bland article.

~~~
luma
The CEO of a company the size of Ford making statements about the future
direction of the company w/r/t digital assets seems newsworthy, no matter the
venue.

------
SN76477
Transportation as a service is coming.

~~~
gargravarr
It's already here. I know people who sold their cars and rely on Uber now. I
also know people who never owned a car and take taxis everywhere. It's not
new.

~~~
bashmonkey
That works if you live in or near a city centre, but I live far outside the
city and drive 25 minutes to work one way. Uber would be expensive compared to
the cost of petrol and my already-low car payment. Even if you extrapolate out
the cost of the car payment, petrol, and insurance, I'm still ahead.

