
Mark Zuckerberg's manifesto for Facebook offers a social dystopia - bsirkia
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-02-17/mark-zuckerberg-s-manifesto-for-facebook-offers-a-social-dystopia
======
sveme
Have we reached peak Facebook yet? I started using Facebook quite early in my
country and used it mostly as a social network, communicating and exchanging
stuff with friends from all over the world. A couple years later I deleted my
account, being disgusted by the potential abusive potential of all the
information Facebook had. I came back years later as it became THE tool for ad
hoc social initiatives and a way to follow news from things of importance to
you, like the local climbing gym or a band I like. Though I did not use it as
a social network, I nevertheless used it. That is currently changing and I
experience Facebook fatigue.

The comment sections are either empty, used as a notifier for friends or are
right-wing/left-wing troll battle fields. Everyone seems overly emotional to
get the most likes and bubble to the top. I removed subscriptions for
newspapers to not accidentally have to stumble upon the inanen comments,
something I dreaded only with youtube comments so far. Have the social network
aspects of Facebook (and youtube) been destroyed by fatigue, other ways
(WhatsApp?) of exchanging stuff immediately and ideological troll battles?

~~~
CodingGuy
If Google Trends is somewhat right, we've definitely reached peak Facebook:
[https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Facebook](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Facebook)

~~~
alehul
This is likely more indicative of society:

A. Becoming more computer-literate and going straight to sites as opposed to
always Googling it before clicking, even once familiar with the URL, which
won't correlate to usage

B. Visiting the site enough for AutoFill to take effect, which is ever-so-
slightly inverse in correlation in terms of search popularity to site
popularity

Here's a FB-related search term people will still use, even with AutoFill for
Facebook, as some evidence. The rise is a similar pattern, but lacking the
major drop:
[https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Facebook...](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Facebook%20contact)

~~~
nostrademons
[facebook] was the most common search query when I was at Google (roughly the
period covered by this graph), and [facebook login] would alternate between #2
and #3. Neither of your options seem likely at all to me - over the time I was
there, I witnessed people becoming _more_ likely to navigate to sites via
Googling them rather than clicking, not less. The trend is even more
pronounced with mobile, where basically nobody types in a URL, they use voice
search and speak the name of the site.

I would bet on the Facebook mobile app being a major cause, though. Instead of
hitting the web version at all, they're opening the mobile app.

~~~
Waterluvian
Do people really voice search for things like that? Aside from drivers going
hands-free, I have never seen a colleague or friend use voice commands where
it wasn't just for the novelty.

~~~
nostrademons
I do, and I've heard a bunch of my friends do it. On Android voice recognition
is both fairly reliable and really easy, so why not?

~~~
Waterluvian
Yeah it absolutely is reliable and easy. I just haven't seen it catch on among
my circles. Interesting.

~~~
wutbrodo
IME, the first people in my friend group who started doing it were the ones
who weren't insecure about looking "uncool" (so a combination of unapologetic
techies and people without low self-esteem). Afaict, that's the main reason
that people don't use a feature that would otherwise save tons of time.

~~~
genofon
I'm not afraid of being seen as an uncool geeky, but I would never use it as I
don't like to broadcast what I am looking for to all my neighbors, even when I
am alone I prefer silence, typing now requires basically the same amount of
time.

------
temp-dude-87844
This is disingenuous critism that reiterates canned talking points, while
failing to cover much of the manifesto's content. Zuck's document in question
is actually fairly substantive and raises some intriguing questions that
Facebook's leadership has to grapple to retain relevance in a diverse world
that isn't all fairies and unicorns, but where people actually oppose each
other politically, culturally, and along other axes.

While he frames it in terms of being a good actor as opposed to making a
profit, I can't fault him for this in what is essentially a PR post. At least
it acknowledges common criticisms of Facebook's moderation, content policy,
and editorial behavior, and displays an awareness that hurried knee-jerk
hotfixes won't allay all concerns, but that they need a strategies to stay
relevant.

I'm no fan of Facebook the product, or their business model being an elaborate
data harvesting scheme, but place criticism where it's due, not on long-form
PR blog posts that admit they fucked up a few times and they can do better --
even if they play up examples where FB being in the right place at the right
time with the right marketshare has has helped people.

------
dahdum
While I live in Silicon Valley and mostly agree with the prevailing morality,
it's alarming to see Facebook (and others like Reddit/Twitter) move so
aggressively towards social engineering the entire world.

~~~
lazaroclapp
Arguably, Facebook has been very cautious on how it moves towards social
engineering the world, though. Which is what has allowed things like Cambridge
Analytica to do so instead. The whole point of this manifesto is not "lets
take over the world!", it is "we have a huge influence in the world, that much
is a fact, let us take some measure of responsibility about it". Could there
be a better alternative to Facebook being the one which has this power? Sure.
But that's not for Facebook to change. The best you can hope is them taking
their current power seriously and trying to wield it responsibly and that's
what the manifesto is about. You want to take that power from them and build
something better... well, feel free to give it a go.

~~~
_xnjw
I agree that Facebook doesn’t socially engineer users as much as it could, but
I think this is more a testament to its immense power than its kind
intentions. Facebook is no stranger to unethical behaviors—its actions only
seem ethical in comparison to what is possible with that amount of power.
Remember a couple years ago when Facebook published a blatantly unethical
psychological experiment that manipulated the emotions of unconsenting,
unaware users? Zuckerberg didn’t think of it as a shady A/B test to keep
private within the company, he allowed it to be published in PNAS.

Let’s not forget, Facebook isn’t exactly being exploited by shady actors like
Cambridge Analytica—it's profiting from them.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/30/technology/facebook-
tinke...](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/30/technology/facebook-tinkers-with-
users-emotions-in-news-feed-experiment-stirring-outcry.html)

[http://www.pnas.org/content/111/24/8788.full.pdf](http://www.pnas.org/content/111/24/8788.full.pdf)

------
paganel
> The algorithm prioritizes what it shows a user based, in large measure, on
> how many times the user has recently interacted with the poster and on the
> number of "likes" and comments the post has garnered.

FB has changed so much for the better for me since I've joined an AutoRetro
group featuring cars at least 25 years old and since I've started like-ing
that group's posts. Now almost half of my feed is filled with photos of old
Trabant, Lada or Opel Kadett cars, and I love that. The other half is indeed
filled by mothers sharing their kids' stuff, which I don't give a crap about,
and some fiery political stuff, which I care about but which I generally
ignore, the reason being that there's not that much that I can change,
politically-wise, by commenting on the Internet.

I've also found out that I've been a lot more relaxed and generally better off
since I've stopped checking my feed on the phone when in public places
(tramway, waiting in line at the Post office or at a general store). For those
situations I always carry a magazine (the Economist folds really well) or a
pocket book with me, and it's been for the best.

~~~
dopamean
This sounds a lot like what I tell people who don't like using reddit. I love
using reddit because I follow the subs that are related to my interests and as
a result I find a lot of really, really awesome content. I think if you
approach a massive social network as a passive or casual user you will be
subjected to worst that network has to offer.

~~~
nether
Even in the hobbies, particularly sports, subreddits I see a lot of narrow
mindedness that I don't see in other forums for the same activities. Like
asking how to do X type of cycling, the top comment will be some exhortation
on how you must do ABC with Z bike or you will die. Versus bikeforums.net,
where people will chime in with a more "anything goes" attitude, and seem to
have greater depth and breadth of experience.

~~~
projektir
Indeed. I had plenty of positive experiences on Reddit, but many subreddits
are very chaotic relative to how popular the subject is and who ended up
there. The voting system just doesn't scale well in my opinion.

------
noddingham
I think The Register's take does a way better job of describing this
manifesto.

[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/17/zuckerberg_publishe...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/17/zuckerberg_publishes_worldsaving_manifesto/?page=1)

------
Bedon292
>> If you type "how to leave" into the Google search window, "how to leave
Facebook" will be the first suggestion.

Am I being too critical for thinking someone writing an article like this
should know that Google searches / suggestions are personalized? Just because
its suggested for them does not mean its universal.

~~~
rush340
You're not. It really annoys me when people cite google search suggestions as
meaningful.

In my google search suggestions, it falls behind "how to leave a group chat"
and "how to leave a meetup group". Therefore it must be true that more people
are trying to figure out how to get out of group chats or break it off with
their meetup group than leaving facebook. This also must be a sign of the
demise of group chat.

~~~
paulddraper
Mine:

> how to leave a group text on iphone

> how to leave a google review

> how to leave a review on etsy

> how to leave a group chat

~~~
FabHK
Love me my ad/cookie/tracking blocking. I get:

> how to leave facebook

> how to leave a club in lol (??)

> how to leave ashran (??)

> how to leave a discord server (??)

Seems Google has me pegged as a gamer... (I'm not, had to DDG all the
suggestions marked with a question mark)

------
bicknergseng
Not to be overly melodramatic and totally dodging the contents of the article,
but aren't we already in a social dystopia? Is there any way of qualifying
"how dystopic" a society is?

~~~
spamlord
"an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad,
typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one."

where the hell do you live? remind me to never visit.

~~~
grx
Probably the US! /s

------
tempodox
Like all megalomaniacs, Zuckerberg fancies himself as some kind of messiah. He
won't stop believing that, not even after his machine explodes in all our
faces.

~~~
dredmorbius
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13673691](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13673691)

El Rag agrees with you.

------
return0
To play the devils advocate, the criticism of the article is misdirected. None
of the problems mentioned were created or exacerbated by facebook. Addiction :
just like any other addiction , filter bubble: people not making friends on
the other side, right winger's followers: the shunning from mainstream media
brought that.

Facebook makes the most obvious choice of algorithms. An alternative choice of
algorithms (e.g. deliberately exposing you to views you don't like) would
create a much bigger backlash.

Anyway facebook has a long history of "huuuge outcry" every time they make a
change, but its users have the attention span of a fruitfly.

------
wott
> _In France, rationalist Emmanuel Macron has 165,850 likes, while far-right
> Marine Le Pen boasts 1.2 million._

"Rationalist"?? What's rational about him? The guy did not have any political
existence 6 months ago, has no party, has no program, tells everyday the
opposite of what he told the previous day because the audience is different,
and yet gets more than 20% in opinion polls. That's a _rationalist_ , uh?

~~~
Veen
The only thing on your list that has anything to do with rationalism is this:
"tells everyday the opposite of what he told the previous day," and it's
entirely rational.

If you want to persuade someone, telling them what they want to hear is an
essential first step. It would be irrational to do othwise given his goals.

------
mnm1
Sure, but if you name the solution to this problem "virtual identity suicide"
(I had to look it up too) you're not going to get many adopters. That's like
naming marriage "single status suicide". It's not even accurate. What things
are named matters a lot because most people cannot tell the difference between
the name and the thing named nor can they easily remove implied yet unintended
meaning from text.

~~~
pYQAJ6Zm
I agree; it’s a terrible name for it. I also googled it and found a website
whose lead image is a hangman’s noose – seriously, come on. Let’s call it
online identity liberation, retaking, protection, or whatever.

------
csomar
I have stopped using Facebook as a source of information, unfollowed all
friends and pages and stopped posting about me eating outside (I did post
about my travels which I'm planning not to redo). After a while of doing that,
I don't feel any urge to visit facebook and check again. I even get no more
urge to see my friends profiles and what is going on with them.

However, I have found it is not practical to remove Facebook because I use
Messenger to talk with friends (either chat or voice). Much easier and cheaper
than doing it with text (and it's way too easier for international friends). I
removed the Messenger App from my phone though because it is abusive. I'm
trying to find a way to communicate (P2P) with friends without facebook but it
is too hard to convince them to install something else.

~~~
vowelless
I have the exact same feelings.

FYI you can deactivate Facebook without deactivating messenger. That is what I
did. My messenger still works (although oddly, sharing links with friends has
become a little worse ) and my Facebook profile is deactivated.

------
Sir_Cmpwn
[https://www.facebook.com/help/224562897555674](https://www.facebook.com/help/224562897555674)

------
dmitrygr
Why is it that every little single-purpose-at-best company nowadays acts like
they are out to save the world in the most noble way possible?

Mark, please! You're a spam-your-friends-with-fake-news-and-baby-photos
service at best. The world will go on long after Facebook ceases to exist.
Please stop pretending that you're Mother Teresa here.

~~~
zzalpha
It's the tech delusion. I don't know a start-up that doesn't have some
grandiose vision of themselves as the future saviors of humanity. Uber, Tesla,
Facebook, Airbnb, you name it... it's all the same "save the world" rhetoric.

The scary thing is, I think a lot of people on the industry actually believe
their own BS...

~~~
nostrademons
It's much easier to do hard or risky things (and convince others to do hard
things) if you believe that doing so will save the world.

Whether it's true or not, it's a useful illusion. People who believe that it's
all meaningless tend to sit on message boards and shit on others instead.

~~~
GuiA
Hey, some people sit on messages boards and shit on others AND manage to build
successful businesses that let them live the lives they want. I'd rather
choose them as models than the douchebags drinking kombucha in their Tesla.

(i <3 u 'idlewords)

~~~
onetimefake
Linus Trovalds come to minD :)

------
dang
I bless whoever hides those substantive titles in the URLs.

~~~
pygy_
Did you kill your own comment?

It was marked [dead], not [flagged]... I just vouched for it to reply, I'm a
bit surprised that users can hide a mod's post...

~~~
dang
I did kill it, because even though I'd marked it off topic (which ranks it
lower), it was a poor way to start the thread.

~~~
pygy_
Makes sense :-)

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Neliquat
You made a throwaway to post a huge defense of facebook? Color me skeptical.

Edit: Correction, you are a sockpuppet, as you admit to in your 1st post,
pointing out its primary use to manipulate discussion. Go away troll.

~~~
dang
You can't attack other users like this on HN, regardless of how wrong you
think they are. We ban accounts that do so, and already warned you about it
twice. Please fix this.

We detached this comment from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13672409](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13672409)
and marked it off-topic.

