
When Schools Overlook Introverts - pepys
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/09/introverts-at-school-overlook/407467?single_page=true
======
csense
Thinking back to my own middle/high school experiences, group work just gives
the poor students a free pass to slack off, because they know the good
students in their group will pick up the slack.

I usually worked alone if the option was available, because if I worked in a
group I'd almost always end up having to do / re-do everyone else's sub-par
work anyway. It was the same workload either way, but working in a group would
essentially be giving others "counterfeit" grades (based on my effort, not
theirs), the existence of which necessarily devalues my "genuine" grade.

~~~
silvestrov
Group work _can work_ , but it needs a different setting. I studied at an
university where half of the time was group work and it worked because:

 _The students had 100% authority over how groups are formed_ , i.e. number of
groups and who are in which group. The teachers had nothing to say in this.

The result is that:

1) it quickly became common knowledge who the slackers were (and who were the
opposite).

2) nobody wanted to have the slackers in their group, so they were kind of
ostracized and had to make their own group. They often ended up with the bad
marks they deserve.

3) everybody learned that you had to do your homework/groupwork if you wanted
to be part of a good group. It became a lot more difficult to get away with
lame excuses for not having done what you promised. People really worked hard.

3b) If a group member didn't do their work, the other members could exclude
the person from the group, and that person then had to make a project on their
own, which is really really difficult. _Again, the teachers had nothing to say
in this, they could not veto an exclusion._

4) you ended up with a notion that your reputation had important consequences,
just like in real life. Introverted people who did great work were popular
group members.

5) Bonus: you learned to value different skills in people. Instead of wanting
to be around people exactly like yourself, you learned that people who are
(and think) different are very valuable for good projects.

~~~
stevesearer
That sounds like it definitely works in the university setting you're
describing, and sounds like the same type of thing that would have happened in
the middle school setting I used to work in. The unfortunate thing in both
settings is that the slackers always get bad marks.

This is especially bad for a 7th grader when poor school performance can have
little to do with the student's actual skills and a lot to do with their home
life and/or parental involvement.

~~~
morgante
I don't think you could possibly design a mixed-skill education model where
slackers _don 't_ get bad marks. If slackers get good marks, marks are
meaningless.

~~~
stevesearer
Completely agree.

I guess I was more commenting about the fact that is doesn't matter whether
the groups are self-formed or teacher-formed, or university-level or middle
school-level because the outcome will always be the same: slackers get bad
marks.

One of my goals as a teacher was to identify "slacker" students who didn't
like to read and then try to help them find enjoyment from reading. Usually
the reason for not liking reading was that they hadn't found a subject or
genre that they connected with or were allowed to explore in depth.

That is kind of off-topic, but I always felt like the marks were only one
aspect of education and even if the student ended up with bad marks, they
could still grow and be a different person by the time they were done with the
school year.

~~~
morgante
> I guess I was more commenting about the fact that is doesn't matter whether
> the groups are self-formed or teacher-formed, or university-level or middle
> school-level because the outcome will always be the same: slackers get bad
> marks.

Actually, that's not true in my experience. When a teacher assigns groups,
then they often force slackers into groups with hard-working over achievers
who pick up all the slack. So the slacker does get a good mark.

Not that I think that's a good thing for everyone. It pisses off the student
who did all the hard work, makes marks meaningless, and allows the slacker to
coast further without learning anything.

Yet it's disturbingly common.

~~~
pyre
Well, the teacher helped the "slacker" student improve their grades... must be
a great teacher!

------
cryoshon
I'd say that most paradigms of grade school style learning overlook introverts
by default. There's usually some sort of grade-based participation bonus for
speaking out and answering the teacher's questions as soon as they're posed.
There's almost always group project components as well, in which introverts
won't be able to shine as much.

IMHO it's part of a larger system of not valuing introverts as a society.
Being talkative gets people noticed, and being quiet gets people forgotten,
and, as a result, neglected. I don't have any real solution to propose, just
an observation that in most cases, introverts are worse off for their social
disposition. Ambiverts are probably the best positioned for success, provided
that they are able to play up their extraversion when around extroverts and
play it down when around introverts.

~~~
glenda
Speaking in front of people and working in groups are extremely valuable
skills, even for introverts. This is like saying that people who don't enjoy
physical activity should skip P.E. class -- in both cases there is both a
developmental and health component at play.

I am extremely introverted, but have no problem speaking to groups of people
or even working in groups. I've always felt that my voice has been heard and
respected because when I do talk people know that I have definitely thought it
through. However, there are always those people who expect you to act exactly
as they do.

The actual problem seems to be that kids aren't really taught to hold respect
for one another. Because of that once you exhibit any kind of quirky behavior
you become the target of joking/teasing and other forms of alienation that may
only amplify your initial weirdness.

~~~
zephyrfalcon
"Speaking in front of people and working in groups are extremely valuable
skills, even for introverts."

Yes -- and the problem is that very few places actually _teach_ these skills
to introverts. Rather, you are supposed to already know them.

"This is like saying that people who don't enjoy physical activity should skip
P.E. class -- in both cases there is both a developmental and health component
at play."

It's funny you should bring up PE here, because the same mechanism is usually
at play there. PE classes don't focus on the kids who are bad at sports. They
focus on those who are already good at it, for whatever reason.

~~~
bpyne
"It's funny you should bring up PE here, because the same mechanism is usually
at play there. PE classes don't focus on the kids who are bad at sports. They
focus on those who are already good at it, for whatever reason."

It's been a frustration of mine for a while that P.E. stands for Physical
Education, but rarely are kids educated about exercise and nutrition. Kids
don't learn about exercise increasing endorphins that, in turn, elevate mood.
They don't learn about cardiovascular conditioning and how it helps with some
asthmatic conditions. Forget about anyone mentioning the role of stretching in
our health as we age. Nutrition is neglected entirely, but learning about
"carb bombing" and its effect on mood would do a lot of good. Instead they
throw a ball around and get out aggression (or try to hide from the kids who
are getting out aggression).

I read an interview with Anne Hathaway which discussed her training for the
Catwoman role. Prior to that role, she hated exercise and thought that just
because she was skinny, she was therefore healthy. (Let's ignore that she
admitted in another interview to being a heavy smoker for a good portion of
her life.) Once her trainer got her past the initial strain of conditioning
muscles, she found she liked how she felt when she exercised. I think a lot of
people developed a dislike of exercise early in their lives due to an
association of exercise with team sports, which developed in PE classes. I
think it needs to change.

~~~
davnicwil
> due to an association of exercise with team sports

And intrinsic competitiveness. I remember from my school PE classes (UK) that
even distance running was _always_ practiced as a race.

Anyone who runs knows that unless of course you're very elite, your
performance vs other people is almost entirely unimportant to you. It's your
own personal performance that matters, and this is as true on a solitary
training run as it is taking part in a massive 'race' event such as a
marathon.

Competing against yourself (trying to improve) is incredibly rewarding in a
totally different way to competing against and beating other people. In a
solitary sport like running, nobody gets to judge you but you, the motivation
and joy that comes from the exercise and fitness improvements is almost
entirely internal - to put it bluntly nobody else cares when you shave 5
seconds off your PB, but to you it's a wonderfully satisfying experience.

I always wondered why PE teachers never seemed to approach exercise and sport
from this angle. They're really missing a trick as I believe discovering this
would really encourage a lot more kids to keep exercising throughout and after
school as a result.

As it happened I was always reasonably competent at sport, never the best at
anything but good enough to be competitive at all the sports I played (at
least vs other amateur kids). So for me it was OK to have a competitive
element, but I can completely see that that if sport and exercise is always
focused around competition, and a kid is _consistently_ losing at everything
they try, that's going to be a huge long-lasting turn off from exercise.
Focusing more on 'this is intrinsically fun to do on your own' might change
that significantly.

~~~
mcguire
In the United States, in my experience, PE teachers are generally employed
primarily as coaches for the schools' sports teams. As a result, they're not
especially interested in exercise for its own sake.

------
themodelplumber
As a strong introvert I remember sitting in class, age 8 or so, and wishing
with all my heart that I could have a big thick stone enclosure around my
desk, extending halfway up to the ceiling. I was working on multiplication
tables at the time and was feeling extremely overstimulated to the point where
I couldn't focus (and to clarify, I didn't know I was overstimulated, or even
that I couldn't focus, at the time).

Since then I've learned more about introversion, and I now look back and
recognize the brief moments when the school system tried to reach into my
introvert life and make things easier. Unfortunately, by the time they
filtered from administration down to me, these attempts (e.g. typology testing
for career and school advice, or special workshops) were either so watered
down as to be completely useless or so boring-sounding and voluntary that no
student in their right mind would attend them without prodding.

~~~
vonmoltke
Funny, that's how I feel in open-plan offices...

~~~
shostack
I've worked with people who don't seem to grasp the concept that I am more
productive at home vs. a large, loud, open office.

At one point I seriously considered getting horse blinders to wear because
where I sat at one company gave me essentially a panoramic view of the entire
office. With half-height cube walls, that meant I literally saw everything out
of the corners of my eyes. Could not get anything done for the life of me.

Contrast that with home where I can have as much or as little light as I want,
it is mostly silent (unless I want music), I'm in a safe and familiar
environment, no distractions except those I allow by checking email/Slack, and
my productivity skyrockets when I get in the zone.

~~~
stevesearer
This is an interesting comment on an an article about introverts in school
settings. I wonder how many people with similar thoughts on open-plan offices
see homeschooling as a best alternative to typical classroom environment.

Homeschooling often takes the approach where high productivity levels mean you
are done with school in a few hours as opposed to sitting around killing time.
This is also similar to frustrations voiced here about having to sit around
the office even if they have completed their work.

There are likely more overlaps too.

In the same way that modern schooling schedules is supposedly designed to
mimic industrial scheduling, perhaps current schooling models is moving in the
direction of mimicking the modern workplace.

~~~
shostack
That's a really interesting point. Personally, I think there is a ton of value
in the social experiences you are exposed to in school that are critical for a
successful future.

That said, while I don't love the idea of homeschooling, I would have LOVED an
approach of "learn the material at home on your own and use class time to ask
questions/review homework" or something of the sort. I'm a strong visual
learner, and one of my big frustrations with schooling was that so much of it
was auditory. Between scrambling to take notes and such, I often missed out on
large chunks of the content.

By learning at home, I could spend as much (or as little) time as needed on
topics, and then ensured my comprehension by using class time to review with
the expert and learn from my mistakes vs. just getting something back with a
letter grade and little/no opportunity to dig further.

People learn differently and schools need to start supporting that.

The point about sitting around an office after completing work is something
I've heard before too. I've never really been in a professional job where "I
completed my work" for the day. In situations where that is the expectation, I
think companies should either make it clear they are paying for you to fill a
seat regardless, or respect the time off and allow you to manage your time as
you see fit with the assumption you are a responsible adult.

Even when there is more to do, there are days where I'm just not feeling
productive, and I can stare at a screen and not make any progress. Rather than
force myself I shift mental gears and do things to break me out of it (which
may or may not be work related). I wish schools did a better job of this too
instead of forcing you to plow through (which often leads to dozing off in
class).

------
relaytheurgency
When I was studying to be an educator I was often branded a heretic for
challenging the new modes of teaching as being hypocritical and potentially
unfounded. I never became an educator after student teaching. This article
really puts into words my issues with group learning, project based learning,
and all the other buzzwords flying around schools of education. I remember
being a student in school and relishing the moments where I could be by myself
and focus on whatever needed doing. Now students are lucky to have a moment of
peace as they're prodded into unnatural learning environments meant to mimic a
"real world" that frankly doesn't exist.

------
ryanobjc
I've often been told about the benefits of "group work" and "collaborative
working" and thus "open plan offices" but I feel like that much energy can
reduce the depth of knowledge and thought. You're replacing depth with
breadth. The operating theory is that by offering a multitude of view points,
you make up for the single thinker. And in areas of human dilemma, this can
work. For example, consider marketing or other human-centric activities.

But when the problem gets difficult, the essential superficial nature of this
style of problem solving becomes apparent. This is where a single member then
leaves the group, sequesters their self in solitude then emerges with the
answer later.

~~~
CIPHERSTONE
Open plan offices are all about one thing: maximizing headcount per sq/ft. All
designs focus on putting more people into the same amount of space. Assigning
dedicating space to one person is not as efficient as making the space first
come first server.

IMHO organizations that embrace open plan offices need to 100% embrace work
from home/telecommuting. Because after all, if you don's need to have a face
to face, why do you _need_ to be sitting in an open plan office space? Boggles
the mind really.

------
yodsanklai
My feeling is that school was an introvert heaven as compared to adult
professional life.

~~~
ajross
This can be true or not depending on job.

But the point is valid: what the linked article is pointing out is the _motion
toward_ a more extrovert-oriented educational philosophy. The truth is that
classical education has always been designed for the introvert: students were
required to sit quietly at their desks, wait to be questioned, do work in
silence, etc...

And the truth is that some students (the extroverts) do comparatively poorly
in this environment. So we're retooling to better serve them, potentially at
the expense of the ones who were already well-served.

I don't know that this is an easy problem, but it's certainly more complicated
than "introverts are discriminated against in school".

~~~
zephyrfalcon
"The truth is that classical education has always been designed for the
introvert: students were required to sit quietly at their desks, wait to be
questioned, do work in silence, etc..."

True, although I think that had more to do with making kids obedient, or
expecting them to be obedient, rather than school being "designed for
introverts". Also, putting a bunch of kids together in a room, and expecting
them to speak up or do things in front of the class, certainly don't favor the
introverted.

------
danharaj
Top-down prescription of how children and teachers ought to run a school will
always neglect particular groups and individuals. There is no one system or
theory that meets the needs of everyone. One would think that the solution
would be to decentralize the organization of schools and take a bottom-up
approach, and not merely at the level of teachers, but at the level of
students. Students deserve autonomy and a voice in their learning environment.
Teachers deserve autonomy in designing curricula.

------
jokoon
I failed at several higher education schools in France PRECISELY because of
group projects.

All my scores were fine or high, except for those stupid team project which
counted for a huge score coefficient.

Failed so many job interviews because I don't have a degree or because I'm
less social.

The worst is when some director argued with me that human are a social
species.

Just like Susan Cain wrote about it, it really seems that there is a Salesman
culture. It almost seems that we considers introverts to be handicapped.

~~~
jasonkester
Sorry to hear. But surely you have to agree that your introversion _has_
handicapped you significantly in life?

From your own story, it sounds like it stopped you from being able to complete
a degree program and has cost you job opportunities. It sounds like something
worth working on fixing or at least working around.

I was a super shy kid and am still way on the introverted side of the
spectrum. But I've learned to work on teams and to lead them. It's a skill,
like any other. Much like you couldn't blame the paratroopers for rejecting
you for refusing to jump out of planes, you can't really blame a school or
employer for rejecting you if you refuse to learn to overcome your aversion to
working with groups.

~~~
jokoon
> Sorry to hear. But surely you have to agree that your introversion has
> handicapped you significantly in life?

Not significantly. Yes, but which is the cause ? My personality or the
standard people deems normal ? Not saying I'm normal, but maybe it's a chicken
egg problem. There are tolerances and expectations at play.

Oh and by handicapped I meant like introversion is overlooked as a mental
illness, like lonely people are somehow retarded.

> you can't really blame a school or employer for rejecting you if you refuse
> to learn to overcome your aversion to working with groups.

I'm not blaming anybody, but at some point people have to learn about it and
not just run with it like it's a standard.

Also, higher education programs should not be meant to teach people how to
work with groups. How do you really expect people to learn something technical
by forcing them to socialize ?

------
dwd
The issue really comes down to society still thinking introversion is a bad
thing. You are often perceived to be shy and quiet or antisocial.

Most introverts are neither of these, yet the labels persist and introversion
like being left-handed was in the past is currently seen as something to be
fixed.

------
bagelwhiteoff
A more private and individualist education is the only reason I succeeded in
life.

Before I came to the U.S, I went to South American private schools and it was
a living nightmare. You breath collectivism and herd mentality is the only
answer.

Because I'd refuse to work with groups, my grades were terrible and teachers
often recommended my parents to seek 'special education'.

When I got in the U.S, I tested out of as many classes as possible and
graduated HS at 15. If I had a talented child, I'd follow this map:

[http://image.slidesharecdn.com/gertjan-penelope-
telemachos-a...](http://image.slidesharecdn.com/gertjan-penelope-telemachos-
and-odysseus-141125033528-conversion-gate02/95/penelope-telemachos-and-
odysseus-18-638.jpg?cb=1416886594)

------
balabaster
> "I used to think their ubiquitous earbuds were feeding their need for
> stimulation; now I wonder if they’re sometimes blocking out the noise."

Most of the time my earbuds are in, I'm either listening to white noise or I'm
not listening to anything at all... I put them in with the intention of
listening to music, but never actually get as far as remembering to put the
music on - and it's exactly for that, blocking out noise. Frequently, even if
I have music playing, I'm not even listening to the music, I'm just drowning
out distraction so I can concentrate.

------
lsiq
This is nitpicking but, the A-level (the basement) at Regenstein library at
the University of Chicago is not exactly a quiet reading area, it is typically
loudest floor in the whole building.

~~~
johnloeber
Typically the loudest floor is the ground [first] floor...

~~~
lsiq
It has been a few years since I graduated, but my impression is always that
people were in general much more willing/allowed to talk in the A-level more
than on any other floor.

Sure the ground floor could get packed but the amount of dBs/person was higher
in the A-level, so it would it be louder if it was actually packed as well.
This likely also because the A-level has the cubicles in the back that were
set up precisely for group work.

In any case, it is misleading for the article to say that converting the
A-level to a more collaborative environment is taking away from introverts'.
Especially since the A-level is one of the louder rooms in one of the louder
libraries.

------
talmand
In some cases they aren't overlooked, they get suspended for being involved in
a physical altercation (bully beat them up) just like any other student.

------
dreamdu5t
Introversion/extroversion is a false dichotomy. There is no such thing, and no
evidence fundamental personality types exist. Carl Jung's theories are
unfalsifiable, untestable, and pseudoscientific.

Promulgating this quackery is damaging to people who are labeled as such and
go on to identify with it.

~~~
vvpan
I fully agree. I've seen people (including myself) go through varying degrees
of introversion based on external experiences. Identification can be a
strongly limiting and a destructive power. When it comes to "introvert"
reservations about fully identifying with a term seem to vanish for most
people - those who identify and those who do not.

~~~
Jtsummers
> Identification can be a strongly limiting and a destructive power.

This cannot be emphasized enough. Sometimes identifying mental
characteristics/behaviors can be very important (for instance, depression) in
that it allows you to start examining it and trying to correct it, or build a
career or social life that takes account of it. But many people latch onto
non-disorder labels (like introversion) and use it to justify all their
behavior ("I don't want to go out on Friday night _because I 'm an
introvert_." \- spoken by many of my friends, even when going out just meant a
night in playing board games that they originally suggested).

This isn't true of all introverts, but many self-identified introverts that
I've met the last several years exhibit behavior more in common with burnout
and depression. They hold the dual views of wanting to do things with people
(their friends at least) but refusing to go out because it means dealing with
people (often those same friends). At some point, like I did, you have to
figure out a healthy way to deal with your desire to have quiet time/alone
time/whatever time in a way that doesn't frustrate the people you want in your
life to the point that they end up leaving you behind. Or you need to find
friends that you actually find yourself desiring more time with.

------
abalashov
I wrote a critique of group work based on my own experiences with it in school
and in university, echoing many of the same grievances against voiced in this
discussion:

[http://likewise.am/2015/07/01/on-communication-skills-and-
pe...](http://likewise.am/2015/07/01/on-communication-skills-and-pedagogy/)

I took particular issue with the alleged wisdom of putting students of very
heterogenous levels together so that the better ones can serve as a "role
model".

However, my conclusion was that the best medicine is a return to more
structured and - in some respects - authoritarian teaching methods centred
around the lecture, not a different kind of diffuse self-motivated learning
model.

------
kazinator
What I mostly remember of school is that it grossly overlooked my great need
to be elsewhere, doing something else with my time. I was greatly
"extroverted": oriented toward that great exterior sprawling on the other side
of the classroom's window panes.

------
scardine
I'm surprised nobody mentioned people diagnosed in the autistic spectrum,
because so many are attracted to engineering and computer science - I guess
there are many of us lurking around here...

------
vvpan
So, is "introvert" a real thing? I feel like it's just a big group of
character traits that are all gathered under an umbrella term.

~~~
izzydata
From what I understand there is only one thing that constitutes as introvert
and that is a person who finds social interaction draining. They aren't
necessarily shy, or not outgoing or anything, but they eventually need to get
away from people. Opposite from that is an extrovert who finds being alone
draining and needs people to to gain that back.

~~~
vvpan
Sure I've heard that definition. Yet it describes a "symptom", and not a
process which it is a manifestation of. I just feel like the discussion about
"introvert" is extremely shallow: here is a child, she's an "introvert". And
it ends at that. We've started to use the word as a noun, but should we?

I think I used to be not introverted as a child. Then, as I experienced the
pressure of moving to another country during teens, I became more introverted.
And now I am not.

~~~
balabaster
As someone who has "battled" introversion for much of my life, I can agree
with the sentiment of the statement. I say battled because I feel like when I
say I'm an introvert, people around me scoff because they feel I'm the
farthest thing from an introvert. I'm happy to hold court with those who want
to take part in my conversations and I strike up conversations with complete
strangers on the train... I'm not particularly shy per se and I don't lack for
confidence in my abilities or place in the world. But if I don't get "me time"
on a daily basis, it would be like other people going without sleep. It's time
to allow cognitive processing, but unlike sleep, it's conscious cognitive
processing. I need this time to make sense of the world, ideas that would
otherwise never be given enough thought to understand or process.

Your statement has caused me some self reflection and I think I agree. I can't
say upon reflection that I am either an introvert or extrovert.

I find many types of personalities draining - as I'm sure we all do, even
extroverts. I need time away from these personalities to recharge. Preferably
time on my own to do my own thing, tinker, watch the world go by, but most of
all think, uninterrupted or intruded upon.

There are types of people that suck energy from other people. Those that
_require_ constant attention: Those that feed off your attention and will do
whatever they feel they need to in order to absorb that from you. That is
mentally exhausting to most of us. For me this includes people I've labelled
(for better or worse) show offs - the 'look at me, don't you agree how
clever/talented/awesome I am?' types.

There are also types of people that recharge you. Those that give freely of
their energy, but don't require your attention. They happily send their energy
your way and then let it go, content to go back to what they were doing
without a need for constant reassurance or input from you. They bounce in and
out of conversation, make you laugh, engage with you, but don't constantly sap
your energy. Just as content to share space and not talk as they are to
converse with you.

Having to be around people that constantly need or fight for your attention,
always making noise, talking just to talk, interrupting your thought mid
sentence; those that never appear to have any respect for the directives: If
you don't have anything to say that improves upon the silence, don't say
anything at all; and say as much as you can in as few words as possible.

These are the kinds of people that drain everyone... we label people who can't
put up with this for very long 'Introverts' and people that _are_ this
'Extroverts' :P I say that tongue in cheek, I don't believe this is the
definition of extroverts... extroverts just appear to be more immune to the
energy sapping effect of this type of behavior.

In reality, I don't believe that any of us are either of these things in
totality. What I do believe we are, are people with varying levels of
tolerance of other people invading our personal space or mental bubble
uninvited; intruding on our thought processes and spoken word with few manners
or thought for those on the receiving end of that behaviour.

~~~
sah2ed
> I can't say upon reflection that I am either an introvert or extrovert.

Sounds like you are an ambivert.

------
_moogs
Being in a classroom full of noisy students raised my anxiety in elementary
school. I wish I could ease myself in with groups instead of just being thrown
in one with the most obnoxious kids. I'm in my twenties now and still dislike
working in groups. I'm far more productive and mentally stress free when
working in solidarity.

------
0xdeadbeefbabe
When schools overlook introverts, they grow up and write songs like this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U)
(Pink Floyd)

------
et2o
Minor correction: The A-level at the University of Chicago is already a floor
where students are allowed to speak freely.

------
dataker
A more private DOES

------
drzaiusapelord
This is also why I'm so against the typical public school systems we've built
in the US. Its a top-down beaurocratic system that does nothing but transfer
wealth from the taxpayer to the teachers and their unions. Outcomes are piss
poor in big cities and endless strikes for benefits and pay aren't wonderful
things. Chicago is reeling from a pension crisis right now mostly due to
corrupt deals with a corrupt teacher's union. A teacher's union with an
average teacher's salary of $72,000 a year - for 9 months work in a very
affordable city! How affordable? Our average household income is $43,000.

We need more charter schools and alternative learning either funded by the
state with existing tax dollars or attached to property tax breaks for parents
using them instead of the standard public school. We've been fighting for more
charter schools but they come slowly because of all the pro-union politics
that many liberals, unfortunately, consider unquestionable. You'd think
liberals would be on the side of alternate education, especially since there's
so much research on different types of children responding better to these
methods.

As an introvert and somewhat of a non-standard learner, I got lucky that my
parents were able to afford private school for me. I know a lot of other
introverts didn't get so lucky and suffered badly in public school. Some of
them are doing very poorly in life and I fully believe if they had different
educations opportunities they'd be much better off. A top-down system that
works only with extroverted neurotypicals is a huge disservice to children and
the taxpayer.

~~~
panzagl
You are extrapolating one school system to the whole US. Chicago has chosen to
organize its schools that way because it is one of the more corrupt cities in
the country.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
I'm really not. Captive money into public school systems is asinine. That
taxpayer money should be put into a pot and then handed out to different
school systems like charter schools and other alternative schools, not just
straight into public schools. We've had a lot of success with our charter
schools even in Chicago. Vouchers for private schools would be good too.

Choice and competition work.

~~~
panzagl
You're assuming everyone lives in a relatively old big city. The town I grew
up in couldn't support multiple schools, and the money was pretty tightly
controlled by the elected school board.

You're also not thinking of things like ELL and other services that public
schools have to offer that charters often shirk.

