
Unfair Internships - wooster
http://unfairinternships.wordpress.com/
======
axiom
Ok, I'll admit it, we've had unpaid interns.

When we first started out (i.e. when we were based out of my living room, and
were funded by my line of credit+credit cards) we couldn't afford to buy the
fancy kind of ramen noodles, let alone pay anyone salaries. So we posted a job
for an unpaid internship and were able to get three students to work with us
for 4 months.

The students were all freshmen and barely had enough knowledge beyond the
"hello world" level. Over the course of the internship they were exposed to
several languages (Python, Objective-C, C, C#) as well as frameworks and
libraries (Django, OpenGL, Unity3D... bunch of others.) We pushed them hard,
but not in a "work harder or we'll beat you" kind of way, rather in a "we're
all working towards a common goal, and you'll get paid when we get revenue"
kind of way. By the end of the term they all had several serious projects they
were able to showcase (a couple of iPhone apps, web work, a browser plugin...)
and experience with proper programming practices as taught to them by top
notch engineers. And by the end we were actually able to scrounge together
about $2k apiece to give them as a thank-you for their work.

The following year when these guys had finished their 3rd semester and were
looking for their next internship they all got between 22-25 interviews - with
Google, Microsoft, Apple, Qualcomm, RIM etc. And all of them got highly
prestigious internships that normally only go to senior students in their last
semester.

We still use those guys as references for when we hire interns because they
have nothing but great things to say about their experience with us.

Today we're funded and we have revenue, so we're able to pay our interns
somewhat more reasonable rates ($18-25/hr.)

Anyway, my point is that not all unpaid internships are created equal and in
many cases it ends up being in the interests of both the company and the
student.

------
iaskwhy
I'll bite. I believe people who say "why can't they work for free if they want
to?" aren't seeing the big picture. What's been happening in some areas (not
IT), like people working on culture (museums mainly), is that the company will
avoid paying at any cost. This means they will keep you working for free as an
intern until you decide to leave or they are required to give you a work
contract. Then, when you leave, they just get another intern and this goes on
and on.

So you'd ask "why are people falling for this?" and the answer is quite
simple: there's too many people who'd like to work on culture but it's not a
gold mine for companies so they can't pay even if they wanted to. So you keep
accepting internships to get a better CV but it never stops. I can't count the
number of friends I have in this situation for years and years. I'm not
kidding: more than ten years trying internships and with amazing CVs living
with parents because you can't afford living by yourself.

I can imagine this happening in IT too since there's so many people wanting to
work on this area. People need to qualify and I'm not talking about a degree,
you need to practice and learn by yourself so you can have a real advantage
over everyone else and escape the never ending internships.

~~~
Tichy
Still, why blame the companies? seems to me it is still the people who are
volunteering who are bringing this upon themselves. There is no human right to
"working on culture" - if they want to get paid for it, maybe they should try
to think about what they could offer to make it worth paying them.

~~~
iaskwhy
I don't think I blamed the companies for it. I believe it's immoral to do it
but it's up to the people to understand the situation and fight it by not
following such practices.

~~~
Tichy
Isn't thinking it's immoral the same as blaming them. But you even said they
often can't even afford to pay.

Anyway, this is an issue that is not going to be resolved by opinions, but by
economics and markets.

~~~
iaskwhy
Like I said, if nobody fell for it then it wouldn't work so, no, thinking it's
immoral is not the same as blaming them.

------
jamesbressi
1 Natural Law Point (Freedom of Contract) + 1 Government Observation

\---NATURAL LAW POINT--- Thomas Jefferson used natural law theory to justify
what has become arguably the most recognized sentence in American English
contained within the United States Declaration of Independence regarding our
inalienable rights "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Natural law was not only an influence in the Declaration, but also in the
Constitution--starting with Freedom of Speech.

"Freedom Of contract along with the right to own property were core elements
in the American vision of personal liberty . . . The American constitution
scheme places contract liberty well above common law status; it is a
guaranteed personal right. Liberty of contract is recognized not as power
delegated by the sovereign, but as power originating in and guaranteed to the
people." \--Brian A. Blum and Juliana B. Wellman, "Participation, Assent and
Liberty in Contract Formation," Ariz. St. L.J. (1982), 901, 907-08.

While internships are coming under fire in the U.K. with this HN Link, the
same case about breaking minimum wage or any other attack could and has just
as easily happen(ed) here in the U.S. The reality is, like others have said,
is that it is not the fault of the companies, rather those who choose to work
for them.

I had a choice when in University to work as an intern (paid or unpaid)
through the school's "co-op" program or find my own co-op experience that had
to be relevant to my studies. While many took the route of going through the
school, I chose to find my own which paid triple that of the average paid
intern through the school program and obviously much better than unpaid--not
to mention my experience seemed to have been better as most other interns
complained about doing "grunt work".

\---GOVERNMENT OBSERVATION--- It is our choice to make and shouldn't have the
government mettle in this type of affair. Take a look at what happened in New
York circa 1902 when government went to far into labor laws and practices:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lochner_v._New_York>

Regarding the above, basically, New York State law was passed in 1897 stating
"No employee shall be required or permitted to work in a biscuit, cake, or
break bakery or confectionary establishment" for more than 10 hours per day.
What? Lochner was a baker and he was fined for allowing employees to work more
than 10 hours a day or "violating the state law limiting the number of hours
his employees could work."

The government of New York tried to justify this ridiculous law by saying it
was to protect the health, safety, morality and welfare of bakers in New York.

Thankfully, the Supreme Court sided with Lochner that the New York State law
was unconstitutional, although their reasoning is a little poor.
Unfortunately, the Lochner law was reversed in 1937 under the guise of
upholding a Washington State law setting minimum wage.

Like anything, freedom and restrictions and governing can be abused, and
anyone can argue either side of the situation easily, but it is the choice of
the people to side with our natural rights as citizens, including our right
"to be free in his person and in his power to contract in relation to his
labor."

------
klauer
Frankly it isn't surprising that we're even paying attention to something like
this. How many businesses are handing out big bonuses, salary increases, and
raises? I can't imagine many businesses are, as they're doing their best to
keep the penny pinching going on during a down economy. Unpaid internships are
just another business decision that you can more easily get away with today
since the competition is so fierce that they're able to offer $0 / month just
for the chance to get work experience.

One of my friends is currently struggling to get a job working in CAD. It's so
bad in that sector of the economy, jobs he's been tentatively offered have
been taken away by people who called in after their interview saying they'll
work for less than the advertised wage. It cannot be that surprising to think
that a college undergrad with ZERO work experience would work for free when he
has to compete against so many with years experience that they're willing to
underbid him on price, on top of having a shinier resume to boot.

------
mseebach
> _They have some surprising statistics such as 90% of students work for free
> and 60% say the experience is not beneficial_

That is indeed surprising. Why would the 60% for whom the experience isn't
beneficial offer to work for free? I'm afraid you can't outlaw people working
against their own best interest (or statistics misrepresenting them).

And the same goes for outlawing internships. If somebody wants to do grunt-
work for free "to get a foot in the door" or whatever, I think they're for the
most part stupid, but who am I to stop them?

Also, where is the line between unpaid intern and volunteering? Why is it OK
for me to work 3x8 hour shifts at a festival for a free ticket when it's not
OK for a student to work afternoons at CoolCo Inc. which, when on the resume,
will open doors?

~~~
goodside
"I'm afraid you can't outlaw people working against their own best
interest..."

Yes, you can, sadly. Minimum wage laws do exactly this. If you enact a minimum
wage of X, some of the people who make less than X have their wages increase
to X, and some get laid off. Or, less dramatically, they find it harder to get
a job because their labor isn't actually worth X.

Ostensibly, this is balanced out by the benefit to the people who do find
work, but it's indisputable that the downside does exist. If it didn't, it
begs the question of why we shouldn't raise minimum wage another dollar, then
another, ad infinitum until we're all millionaires.

The reason interns are de facto excluded from the laws is that they're
generally not the class of people the laws are meant to protect. They're young
people with a reasonable expectation of future earnings significantly above
the minimum wage, not unskilled adults that might be poor forever. In the US,
some states even carve out exceptions to minimum wage laws for teenagers
working summer jobs for this same reason.

~~~
mseebach
The minimum wage is just outlawing just one instance of people working against
their own best interest.

The specific case I was hinting at, was the 60% apparently doing work,
receiving no benefit. Either the stat is misleading (likely) or those are
people who could play video-games instead of doing this work with no downside.

Otherwise it seems like we agree.

------
Tichy
How can it be unfair if people volunteer for it? I agree that work should be
paid for, but how about taking on some responsibility in negotiating one's own
price?

At least if claiming it is unfair, one should explain why people are forced to
do unpaid internships. Pointing at individual companies doesn't cut it.

------
ximeng
Ubuntu seem to be aware of these kinds of arguments:

[http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/03/23/ubuntu-community-team-
op...](http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/03/23/ubuntu-community-team-
opportunities-second-draft/)

