
Show HN: Weight Lifting Algorithm Based on 5M Workouts - jakemor
https://www.getfitnessai.com/
======
superpie
Not a fan of the predatory "Sign up for a 7 day free trial, and if you forget
to cancel we'll bill you $60 for the year membership" system. It's also a week
trial, but the AI takes 8 workouts to learn -- not great for a comprehensive
demo at all.

~~~
jakemor
Sorry! message me in app I'll give you a free month

(stands for anyone from HN)

~~~
komali2
Ok cool but... Why not just not do that? Is the one month of revenue from
people who forget to cancel, then cancel and are pissed about it, Worth it?

~~~
jakemor
Not really — since I'm spending money on ads on day 1 I need to make the money
back ASAP to reinvest in ads.

Since traffic from HN is essentially free I have no problem with an extended
trial period :)

~~~
jakemor
Sorry! I'm trying to keep up with all the comments and have been responding
hastily.

It's fair game in my book to use the tools Apple provides us as developers to
monetize our apps. Other apps offering subscriptions do so in the same way...
it's why Apple provides us the ability to even offer free trials.

I'm sorry you disagree, but this is common business practice.

~~~
ken
I will be the first to admit that I am not a businessperson, but I would
predict you're not going to make many friends here standing on "the rules
allow us to do this" and "everybody else does it". That's the weakest possible
defense, and shows you're not really hearing _why_ people "are pissed about
it".

~~~
zenlot
At least he is answering honestly. And everyone seems to dislike honest
answers. Looks like people only want to hear some lies wrapped in nice
promises, which would never materialize.

edit: typo

~~~
komali2
Sure, honesty is a good value, which is why it's disappointing to hear that
they'll be honest to us about their dishonesty to their customers.

------
Stunting
Jakemor, I noticed you haven’t responded to anybody asking you more than a
generic question about your methodology.

Here’s what it looks like you did;

Made a weight lifting logging app and charged a monthly subscription for it.

Used your users data to create an algorithm that culled the routine of your
best performers, most likely defined by heaviest weight lifted.

Claimed that by following your algorithm your users could 2x the results of
trainers; trainers here is defined as “people who train,” And not “people who
are paid to train others.”

Cited 60 days as a window of success.

All of this, if it is as it appears, is massively misleading in an industry
already known for snake oil.

Have you compensated for your users that had big numbers but approached it in
an unhealthy way? For instance, how many of your user’s deadlift high numbers
resulted in a hernias?

Additionally you say you have engineers and scientists working on hacking
human performance. What about strength and conditioning coaches? What about
athletes?

~~~
throwaway2019X
>> Additionally you say you have engineers and scientists working on hacking
human performance.

In this post, he says he's a 1 man shop.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19635573](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19635573)

~~~
jakemor
I said I'm looking to hire scientists and engineers

------
z5h
You want my phone number AND "This app does use third party services that may
collect information used to identify you."

I'm not so comfortable with that. Can you tell us more?

~~~
jakemor
Hey! We use the Facebook SDK & AppsFlyer to help optimize + attribute
marketing campaigns. Also use Intercom for customer support.

------
shawnvo
There seems to be a lot of shade here and I wanted to offer a different
perspective. I've strength training for over 10 years and aside from the
basics like nutrition, rest, form, etc... one of the most valuable tools I use
are progression spreadsheets like this one:
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VYNuMhonQw1SOKO_7IbG...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VYNuMhonQw1SOKO_7IbGubON1KxCgCUVxRtef0gQgCM/edit)

The main value is that it not only tells you what exercises to do, but also
how much _more_ to lift each day to ensure steady growth. They are designed by
well-informed people with a lot of experience in the field. However, there are
some major flaws (e.g Most are just linear increases, they don't handle
plateaus/failures well, they aren't personalized, exercises don't change, and
the UI is pretty bad).

There's a lot of potential in something like fitnessai to address these
issues. Obviously, it's not going to do everything for you and won't replace
your own research and experimentation, but I can see it being super valuable
as a tool in the gym.

@jakemor the app looks dope. Listen to your customers and keep building it
out. The majority of HN may not your ideal customer but don't let that deter
you.

------
pushcx
> FitnessAI is so simple your grandma can use it.

This is a terrible cliche. (More:
[https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/So_simple,_your_mother_c...](https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/So_simple,_your_mother_could_do_it))

How about something like:

* Your lifts should be hard, your tracking should be effortless. Record your set with a single tap and spend your rest recovering for the next (...or taking selfies, we don't judge).

This tells people exactly what the value is and tells the that the user that
they deserve FitnessAI.

~~~
jakemor
When you're right, you're right! Thanks for the rec. I've updated the site :)

~~~
ksaj
Good call for both of you. I'd be afraid to insult this grandma's intelligence
when it comes to working out:
[https://www.facebook.com/uniladmag/videos/72-year-old-
woman-...](https://www.facebook.com/uniladmag/videos/72-year-old-woman-has-
amazing-workout-routine/325202101435740/)

PS: Sorry for Facebook and sorry for really awful music. Hit mute first.

------
jakemor
Fellow hackers,

After collecting an insane amount of data with my app Lift Log, I decided to
design an algorithm that optimizes for accelerated muscle growth over a short
period of time.

It currently outperform human trainers by 1-2x in the first 60 days of
training, using a very simple algorithm. The opportunity to change how people,
athletes, and soldiers train is huge.

We're cashflow positive, raised a small seed, and are hiring data scientists &
engineers in NYC to hack the human body for efficiency.

Hope to answer any questions you may have!

~~~
Stunting
I'm all here for better lifting apps, but I have lots of questions.

How do you qualify the "trainers," that your algorithm outperformed? Most
basic strength and conditioning books will outperform the average chain gym
trainer.

How many of your the trainers in your sample size were Strength and
Conditioning Coaches at reputable performance gyms? Would any qualify under
the following statement from the National Strength and Conditioning
Association's Website:

"The proper education consists of an undergraduate degree in an exercise
science-related field. Such a degree is imperative because it forms the
foundation of knowledge that underpins the profession. An exercise science-
related degree affords the capability to practice an evidence-based approach
to strength and conditioning."

What are your results for longer than 60 days? Do you continue to outperform
human trainers at the 1 yr and 5 yr marks? For those that are uninitiated, 60
days is a incredibly short time in the world of Strength and Conditioning.
Doing almost anything differently that your normal routine, consistently, over
3 months will yield positive results before plateaus set in.

How are you quantifying your results?

Are you raising the 1 rep maxes of your athletes 1-2x than more than Human
Trainer? Their 10 rep max? Their max broad jump? Their 40 yard dash? Their 1
mile time? Their muscle mass? Lowering their Body fat percentage?

I want this to work. I crave a simple logging app that will allow me to enter
a variety of exercises and an AI that would help with programming would be
huge. I would be willing to you pay your subscription of $8 a month if it were
true.

~~~
jakemor
>> How do you qualify the "trainers," that your algorithm outperformed? Most
basic strength and conditioning books will outperform the average chain gym
trainer.

Trainers use Lift Log to keep track of their clients workouts during training
sessions. They were identified and their data was compared

>> How many of your the trainers in your sample size were Strength and
Conditioning Coaches at reputable performance gyms? Would any qualify under
the following statement from the National Strength and Conditioning
Association's Website:

"The proper education consists of an undergraduate degree in an exercise
science-related field. Such a degree is imperative because it forms the
foundation of knowledge that underpins the profession. An exercise science-
related degree affords the capability to practice an evidence-based approach
to strength and conditioning."

Not sure! but they worked at or owned their own gyms so I'm sure they are
certified. Only trainers who trained using the same exercises as FitnessAI
were compared

>> What are your results for longer than 60 days? Do you continue to
outperform human trainers at the 1 yr and 5 yr marks? For those that are
uninitiated, 60 days is a incredibly short time in the world of Strength and
Conditioning. Doing almost anything differently that your normal routine,
consistently, over 3 months will yield positive results before plateaus set
in.

I'm not sure! We've only been around for a few months so it's hard to say.
That said, we have the data and users to optimize for this once users begin to
plateau

>> How are you quantifying your results? Are you raising the 1 rep maxes of
your athletes 1-2x than more than Human Trainer? Their 10 rep max? Their max
broad jump? Their 40 yard dash? Their 1 mile time? Their muscle mass? Lowering
their Body fat percentage?

% change in total volume lifter

>> I want this to work. I crave a simple logging app that will allow me to
enter a variety of exercises and an AI that would help with programming would
be huge. I would be willing to you pay your subscription of $8 a month if it
were true.

try it out! And message me in app for a free 30 days

~~~
Stunting
No thank you. You have not qualified your trainers as anybody other than "but
they worked at or owned their own gyms so I'm sure they are certified." That
is naive or willingly ignorant. Spending time any time in a chain gym and
interacting with the hired trainers would illustrate that.

Your methodology doesn't disqualify anybody who could have started with
incredible small lifts and then added higher lifts at the end of 60 days. That
would not reflect actual development.

Most importantly, I am aware of how to do steady slate programming, which
seems to be what your App is selling. I have access to spreadsheets and the
ability to program by percentages, as do most people.

Your app would be 100x better if I simply were able to input my One Rep Maxes
and then have it spit out a 3 month plan of 5x5 training starting around 70%
of my max increasing my loads by 5% a week, with a deload week every 4-6
weeks. Perhaps adding in weeks with 3x5, and 3x3 as it gets near max. However,
as you likely know, no one is going to pay monthly for that.

Instead, you have packaged common knowledge as AI. You have taken data from
users (that you charged a monthly subscription) that are not qualified to give
educated information, failed to qualify which of them were experts, and are
attempting to pass it off as some sort of hive learning. For that you want $8
a month (AND their data, to be used for who knows what in the future) from
people who are looking to better themselves.

~~~
jakemor
Sorry you disagree mate!

There are thousands happy users who are seeing real results, I don't know what
else to say.

Please don't forget that the average user doesn't know how to lift weights,
and doesn't want to pay $50-150/training session. FitnessAI offers a real
alternative.

>> Your app would be 100x better if I simply were able to input my One Rep
Maxes and then have it spit out a 3 month plan of 5x5 training starting around
70% of my max increasing my loads by 5% a week, with a deload week every 4-6
weeks. Perhaps adding in weeks with 3x5, and 3x3 as it gets near max. However,
as you likely know, no one is going to pay monthly for that.

FitnessAI basically does a variation of this, but it's informed by data rather
than being anecdotal

~~~
Stunting
Man you just do not get it. a 5x5 or 3x5 plan is not anecdotal. It's based on
empirical evidence, pioneered in most part by the Russians in the 70s, with
knowledge existing for decades, if not centuries prior.

Your app does not invent a new way to program working out. Your app reflects
proof that science we already know about has results that have already been
proven to be true. And you charge people monthly for this.

~~~
jakemor
Sorry again Stunting, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Good luck in your fitness endeavors :)

------
smn1234
I'm not entirely sold.

Fitness magazines assert they can get me bigger, faster in every month's
issue. It's a big industry.

Perhaps you can post a bit more on the Blog to establish credibility.

~~~
jakemor
Message me I'll give you a free month :)

Working on blog posts too

------
shapiro92
is there ANY science behind this? did you take into account weight, height,
weather, diet, mood, sleep time, gender, prior experience, age, stress levels,
drug consumption, proteins... I could go on..

~~~
amelius
Also, how big is the improvement? If it's only 1-10% better than doing a
random program, then perhaps it's not really worth the trouble. However, if
it's 25+ percent more effective, then we're talking.

(Of course, for professional bodybuilders the decision may be at a different
point)

------
perrohunter
I came to the comments expecting a lot skeptics and was nos let down. Guys
give this a try, I fit the usual software engineer physical stereotype and
would like to gain some muscle but I don’t invest that much on PT as i should.

IMO, Give this a try jakemor said in the comments he’ll give a free month to
anyone on HN

~~~
Stunting
Hey bud. Instead of sending $8 a month to have information that is already
accessible to you regurgitated to you with pretty UI try this instead...

Do you walk? If you don't, start there.

A study of sedentary, overweight men and women (aged 40 to 65 years) showed
they lost body fat and weight when they walked or ran 12 miles a week during
an 8-month study, without changing their diet. A control group of non-
exercisers all gained weight and fat during the 8-month study."

[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/216495)

Do you sit at a desk a lot? You probably have poor posture associated with it.
Do any yoga, at all. Literally any program.

Here's one from my favorite online yogi -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAUf7aajBWE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAUf7aajBWE)

Do you want to lift weights? For $8, one time, you can order Starting Strength
by Mark Rippetoe. \- [https://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-Basic-Barbell-
Train...](https://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-Basic-Barbell-
Training/dp/0982522738)

This book will teach you how to lift the weights, as well as how to program
the lifts, which is twice as much as this app is claiming to do. At 1/12th the
price for the first year, 1/24th the second, and 1/36th the third, etc..

------
jppope
Seems odd that they are only supporting IOS. Additionally, who knows if they
got it right without supplying any supplementary documentation...

~~~
jakemor
Sorry! I'm a 1 man show and iOS is my specialty

~~~
jppope
well that explains it! looks like a cool project!

------
ken
In various places on the webpage, it brags about the design, and how you can
do things with "only a few taps". That'd be great, but the first screenshot
shows how I have to "Speak to FitnessAI". Do I really have to have an ELIZA-
style chat, and spell out the muscle groups I want to work out today? This
just looks lazy. A pseudo-English command line is a terrible design for this.

You have the official "Download on the App Store" badge, but it links to a web
form that requests my phone number. That's not an acceptable use of Apple's
badge, according to their rules on the webpage you downloaded it from.

Using algorithms to optimize my workouts sounds like a good idea in principle,
but I see no proof that it works as advertised, and everything else about this
app is mildly distasteful.

~~~
jakemor
You're only hit with the chat during sign up, after that it's optional.
Beginners like the feature.

The download badge links directly to the App Store on iOS; on desktop it lets
you send yourself a text with the download link, which is standard behavior
for Branch links. Alternatively you can just search FitnessAI in the App Store

I'd suggest giving it a shot before drawing any conclusions. Message me for a
free 30 days :)

------
insickness
Even for a single exercise, there are a lot of different variables: weight,
number of sets, number of reps, recovery time between sets, recovery time
between workouts, etc. Were all of these variables adjusted and taken into
account or were some of them held constant?

~~~
jakemor
Weight, number of sets, reps and recovery time were all taken into account,
although they weren't necessarily constant.

You can devise a relationship between someone's 1 rep - 12 rep max and adjust
for it, check out epleys formula [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-
repetition_maximum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-repetition_maximum)

------
deagle50
Their blog post says not to rest for more than 90 seconds between sets. I can
see why the app would work better with tight groupings but 90s is not enough
max gains and recovery, especially for beginners.

~~~
Afton
Beginners in the first month or two are mostly just learning the motions. 90s
rest is fine. Once you're a few months in, and you've progressed all the
weights significantly from your untrained starting point, then 90s seems like
a crazy short amount of time.

~~~
deagle50
"The men who took longer rest periods experienced a 152% increase in MPS in
the early part of recovery compared to the men who took short-rest intervals
who only saw a 76% increase. That’s a two-fold difference."

[https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/perfect-amount-
re...](https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/perfect-amount-rest-between-
lifting-sets-maximize-muscle/)

Why would you deprive a beginner of these benefits?

~~~
Afton
One study. 1 minute vs 5 minute rest periods. One dimension of the study
(MPS), over 28 hours post exercise. No idea if this is relevant after the
first workout, or the second, or the first week. This is pop science. The
actual study might be fine, but the extrapolation out to practical
applications is pretty silly at this point.

So, I would deprive them of these benefits because I suspect that they are
mild to irrelevant, and because an adult male benching 75lbs 15 times is
likely to be bored out of their mind resting 10 minutes between those three
sets (for example), for what is probably a trivial-or-non-existent 'edge'.

------
sawmurai
I think this will not work unless things like individual training experience,
proper form execution and diet are taken into account.

I also think that people are pretty stupid and you will earn a lot of money
from it.

------
ds0
I'm wondering if there's a parallel for nutrition. I'm a pretty poor eater, as
it stands.

------
rlander
This seems targeted at bodybuilding (at least the landing page screenshots
are). If this really works, it would be interesting to see how the algorithm
fares in competitive sports like olympic weightlifting and triathlon.

------
brandonmenc
I see you have a post-set rating for difficulty but "reps in reserve" is also
a common assessment - any plans to add it?

~~~
jakemor
Yes in due time!

------
aksels
my 2c: The default value for "weight" in onboarding seems to be 120kg. I'm
pretty sure you can set it to 75kg[1] to avoid a lot of scrolling in the
onboarding.

However good job !

[1] average:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight)

~~~
jakemor
Thank you!!!

It's actually set to 120 for both kg and lbs — my bad!

------
jayess
Android version? I'd love to use this.

~~~
jakemor
Top priority — if rev stays steady and we can afford it absolutely!

~~~
BenMorganIO
Also an android user, also interested :)

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agentdrtran
This is complete snake oil.

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nolite
How did you get 6,000,000 workout datasets from 30,000 people?

~~~
jakemor
A previous app I made called Lift Log for iOS that has been around for 3 years
now

~~~
danmg
Are you giving those users free access to this service, since you are
profiting off their data?

------
codesternews
will someone provide link to app? It's really bad to collect the phone no
instead you can ask for emails.

~~~
jakemor
Here you go! If you visit the site on mobile it links directly.
[https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/fitness-ai-weight-lifting-
pl...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/fitness-ai-weight-lifting-
plan/id1446224156?mt=8)

------
HAL9000Ti
Uh. too bad I don't own a phone

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papermachete
Awesome! Where's the source code?

