
The Zelda Test (or Why no Zelda Clones?) - sblom
http://games.greggman.com/game/the-zelda-test-or-why-no-zelda-clones/
======
MengYuanLong
I think I'm one of the five people on HN who do not hold Zelda as the pinnacle
of gaming. To address a few points:

1\. Op chooses to compare Zelda (and let's be clear, this is modern day zelda)
to what amount to first gen games. However, comparing modern Zelda to Doom
seems a bit unfair. How about The legend of Zelda, which by my count, has 25
items and pick-ups (including sword and shield upgrades). The original Doom,
which is continually referred to throughout the piece, has 26 items.

2\. Devil May Cry 3 is not a button masher. Go ahead, beat the game, and then
tell me you could randomly tap buttons and progress. Just because you are
quickly hitting buttons does not mark a game as a masher.

3\. I just don't understand the point that is being made. He claims other
genres are all just clones of each other and then defines them so loosely that
Twisted Metal is now not worth mentioning because, more or less, it is just
Gran Turismo...

I'm finding that this response is growing rather uncontrollably and
frighteningly I could probably write an entire blog response to this article.
But, I think this article skims a bigger idea: Unique games stand alone in
their respective genres because they bring together multiple
disciplines/genres and blend them into a cohesive experience. Some games try
to do this (Duke Nukem Forever) and most fail. Others like Zelda, Portal,and
GTA succeed and become fan favorites that influence future game designs.

~~~
wzdd
It's true that The Legend of Zelda has 25 carryable items (see
[http://www.zeldadungeon.net/Zelda01-the-legend-of-zelda-
item...](http://www.zeldadungeon.net/Zelda01-the-legend-of-zelda-items.php)).
But it also has a bunch of other items: hearts, heart containers, fairies,
pieces of Triforce, blue and red rupees, the magical clock, possibly other
things (this is off the top of my head). That's 32 items, which is I think the
count in the article. Of those, at least 18 are classes of things (eg "key",
"sword", "potion", "health"). Each class has a unique function (almost -- the
wand is arguable). By comparison, half of Doom's items are the same class
("gun"), and most of the others fall into one of the two classes "health" and
"armour". I think the OP's point is quite well made here: Zelda, even the
first one, made in 1986), puts a huge emphasis on unique items and
incorporates them into puzzles.

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georgemcbay
He listed so many must-have items that virtually no non-Zelda game will hit
all of them.

One entire series that was obviously Zelda-inspired (in both 2d and 3d
incarnations) was The Legacy of Kain games. Blood Omen played very much like a
2d Zelda and Soul Reaver 1&2 played very much like a 3d Zelda.

After those games the series kind of switched gears into Devil May Cry
territory, but the first 3 games were very Zeldaish, only with a dark emo coat
of paint.

~~~
Semiapies
Hell, the very first _Legend of Zelda_ fails on half of these items. And,
naturally, there were rather a few games that emulated the _crap_ out of the
first two Zeldas, just as a starting point.

------
jonnathanson
Though the author seems aware of his subjective limitations ("...there are
almost ZERO clones of Zelda. I’m probably missing a whole bunch but..."), he
is nevertheless very quick to make sweeping pronouncements. And he defines the
Zelda subgenre more or less recursively; to be like Zelda is to be Zelda-like
in ways X, Y, and Z.

Through it all, the primary conditions for being like Zelda seem to be: a) to
have been noticed by the author in his game-playing travels, and b) to have
passed the author's retroactively applied taste test.

All of this is a shame, not because the author gives short shrift to every
Zelda-style game out there, but because he does so to _Zelda itself_. Given
his passion for the series, he could have written a very insightful dissection
of what makes it work. Why is Zelda so revered, so timeless, and so
enchanting? These are questions the author seems overly equipped to handle,
and their answers would make for a very interesting post (or series of posts).
I, for one, would love to see him take a deeper dive into the mechanics,
psychology, mythology, setting, and style of the series. Relieved of the
burden of proving a categorical declaration, he could instead focus his
energies on a lively study. Rather than talking about what makes Zelda an
exception, he could talk about what makes Zelda exceptional.

~~~
phzbOx
Although I understand what you mean, I also understand the author's point
about 'being zelda-ish'. I.e. I really like Zelda (I'm currently playing the
last one and really enjoying it), but I'd enjoy any other games based on
Zelda's principle game mechanics which the author rightly described.

For instance, I enjoy how the same region will evolve over time depending on
where you are in your main quest. At first, it's just a road to go to the
temple. But as the game progress and you get more items, you can explore it in
depth and discover awesome quests/items.

I agree with him/her that there's really few games out there that mimics the
game mechanics of zelda. Mario 64 comes close but, for instance, miss the in
depth strategy and the various items. Zelda really have unique game play and
it's not just about the world of Zelda.. you could create a totally different
world and still copy the game mechanics.. but lots of really successful game
use only a part of zelda's game play which is on what the author argue.

In fact, it can be summarized as Zelda being the intersection between multiple
'genres'. And it's surprising that nobody copies it exactly as we all know how
Zelda is a success and is popular.

~~~
jonnathanson
_"I agree with him/her that there's really few games out there that mimics the
game mechanics of zelda."_

I guess I take two general issues with that statement. The first is that the
author's criterion, or yours, about what constitutes "very few" is vaguely
defined. How many would be "more than a few"? I'm really not trying to pick
nits here. I very much understand and appreciate your main point. But it seems
as if the comment section of this article is brimming over with examples of
Zelda-like games (whether or not they are true "clones" is also vague and
subjective).

Second, do we really _want_ games to be "mimicking" Zelda? Is that a goal
we're generally in favor of? Personally speaking, I'm completely content to
let Zelda be Zelda, and let other developers and publishers try to break
different ground in different areas. If we're generally in favor of an
expansion of the Zelda-type subgenre of Action RPGs, that's fine. But why must
games in this subgenre have to "mimick" Zelda in order to meet our needs? By
very definition, isn't the attempt at mimicking Zelda going to doom those
games to being second-rate Zelda clones?

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betterth
MODERN WARFARE 3 IS BASICALLY A DIRECT RIP OFF OF DOOM BUT NOTHING IS EVEN IN
THE SAME GENRE AS ZELDA.

Only a Nintendo fanboy could ever rationalize something so ridiculous.

There's a ton of games out there with large worlds and in-game isometric/3d
action.

Sure, nothing follows the exact formula, but that's because there is no need
to directly copy. The genre is alive and well and no fanboys are going to
convince anyone that Zelda is a unique butterfly.

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SeveredCross
I disagree with the author when he says that "RPG, in the context of video
games basically means quest based game with turn based combat." IMO, this is
extremely narrow-minded, and entirely sidesteps the most important part of the
RPG acronym: the R and P, standing for role-playing.

That said, just role-playing is not enough to make an RPG (otherwise, all
games would be RPG's!). To say Zelda is anything other than an RPG is narrow-
mindedness at best, and intentionally misleading at worst.

~~~
kelnos
The article addresses this part clearly: the "RP" in "RPG" doesn't really
define the category, since most (all?) character-based games are "role-
playing": in a racing game, you're role-playing a race car driver, in a
military FPS you're role-playing a soldier, etc. But I wouldn't call those
RPGs by any stretch of the imagination.

RPG has pretty much come to mean a very specific thing: quest-type game with
turn-based combat. I would never think of Zelda as an RPG.

(As an aside, remember Super Mario RPG? They mashed standard Mario with the
kind of RPG format I describe above... funny that they explicitly acknowledge
the format in the title of the game.)

~~~
slowpoke
I disagree with the "turn-based". There are loads of RPGs which aren't
strictly turn-based or even feature action-oriented battles. Games such as
Final Fantasy and Xenosaga would fall into the former category (which really
is blurring the line a bit because it depends on what you define as turn-
based) while games such as World of Warcraft or the "Tales of" Series, which
feature real time combat, either more tactical (WoW) or even in the style of
Beat-em-Ups (which was essentially pioneered by Tales of Phantasia and became
a selling point of the series as a whole).

I would personally define RPG as a game that features most the following:

\- a story that isn't just background for the gameplay (like in many FPS,
where the story is just an excuse for you to shoot stuff). This will most
likely includes character development and other sorts of progression in the
game world. (Zelda? Check.)

\- some sort of combat system, whether turn-based, action-oriented or with
strategic elements doesn't matter (Zelda? Check.)

\- generally non-linear gameplay including sidequests. There's usually a red
thread along which the main game progresses, but you can "pause" at almost any
time and just do what the fuck you want - go explore, do sidequests, grind
levels or equipment etc. (Zelda? Check.)

\- character progression, through acquiring new items, abilities, levels,
skills etc. (Zelda? Check.)

I kept this intentionally fuzzy because there are many fringe cases, such as
Monster Hunter, which basically lacks the story (it's really just an excuse to
tell you "go hunt monsters"), but is otherwise considered an RPG too.

Zelda definitely IS an RPG. I think it's partially due to being so special
that many people don't like to classify it as such - they might feel like it
takes away from the magic a bit.

~~~
stonemetal
_a story that isn't just background for the gameplay... (Zelda? Check.)_

Is there some hidden story mode for Zelda? Last I checked a princess got
kidnapped and you go rescue her. That is the total extent of the plot. It is
as paper thin as you can get. There is no character development. Outside of
Link's ability to use a sword he has zero character. Gannon is an equally
shallow evil wizard dude.

~~~
slowpoke
I agree to a point, but there's a reason I included "world progression" into
that point.

I do have to admit I'm a bit biased on this since I've read a lot of
supplementary materials which flesh out the games a lot (there are mangas for
Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask and quite a few other Zeldas), and especially
the newer Zeldas (arguably starting with Majora's Mask[1]) _do_ have a decent
plot and story, even though it isn't as "epic" as the likes of Final Fantasy.

[1] Majora's Mask deserves a special mention because it's - perhaps infamously
- a very non-standard Zelda. Most of its charme lies in the incredible amount
of (mostly optional) character driven side-quests which range from funny and
interesting to soul-crushingly depressing. I consider it my favorite game in
the franchise for this reason.

------
micheljansen
First thing I thought when I read the title was "Never heard of Okami?".
Fortunately, the article mentions the game as well. It predates Twilight
Princess, but is obviously heavily inspired by the Zelda franchise in a good
way. It's very original and beautifully styled. I highly recommend anyone who
enjoys playing Zelda to check it out.

------
gommm
Three games that would get pretty close to that are cavestory (but not many
optional subquests), secret of mana (not sure though for the rule #8 it's been
a while) and little big adventure (but it's been a long time I've played it so
I'm not 100% sure anymore). Incidentally, those are some of my favorite
games...

But indeed there are very few games that meet all those requirements which is
a bit of a pity...

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buff-a
If you apply those strict standards of similarity to Mario as you do to Zelda,
then not one of those games listed is the same as Mario, and Sonic the least
of them.

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Argorak
3D Dot Game Heroes is a pretty obvious clone of Zelda (and fun, too!).

Also, after thinking about it, Batman: Arkham (Asylum|City) incorporate many
elements from Zelda, especially the gadget and backtracking-mechanics.

------
bmahmood
I found Darksiders to be very similar to Zelda, based on all the points
mentioned by the author.

Separately though, I agree Zelda holds a unique charm that's very difficult to
evoke or copy (kind of like Pixar movies).

~~~
zmonkeyz
I totally agree. You can always tell the people who didnt play Darksiders when
they diss it as a God of War clone. :)

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chaostheory
No Zelda clones? Maybe it's more accurate to say that very few Zelda clones
come close to the Zelda series' quality.

There are plenty of Zelda clones:

The Legacy of Kain Series

The Darksiders Series

Secret of Mana

Zenonia

Sacred Odyssey

... and plenty more for iOS and Android.

~~~
sek
There are so many subtle details, which are so well designed, you can't catch
that with a score.

The whole games makes an impression as a whole. We are only talking about game
mechanics but there are few games that have this atmosphere. The music, the
lightning and the themes are simply art. You can't break that down in a list.

There is only one Shigeru Miyamoto.

~~~
chaostheory
One of us has misunderstood the others' post. As I have already written; I
agree with you, I can't think of any game in Zelda's specific genre that beats
or even comes close to Zelda's quality. I only pointed out that there are
actually many games that clone Zelda's game mechanics at large, which imo the
article's author completely missed for some strange reason. (None of the games
he listed are actually games that fall within Zelda's genre.)

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KleinmanB
The Current Generation of the Grand Theft Auto series do in fact meet the
qualifications. The game skin throws you off, but the structure is very
similar. The only major difference is that there are subchapters in plot
instead of just chapters.

~~~
RickHull
Yep, GTA3 (even) arguably meets all of the listed criteria:

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derefr
Seems everyone here is talking about "games in the Zelda sub-genre." I'd like
to mention an actual _Zelda clone_ (as it's a game I played for years, long
ago—I don't know enough to endorse it in its present state): Graal Online.

Graal Online (or just Graal for short) is/was an MMORPG resembling Zelda: A
Link To The Past in almost every way. In fact, it was originally _called_
"Zelda Online" until they were served notice by Nintendo (the resulting
changes were profoundly minor.) The game went through phases of being first a
Java applet, then a Windows executable, and—most recently, it appears—a
Facebook and iOS app.

It's basically what you'd expect from a Zelda game: a sword with damage levels
and a shield that can deflect projectiles, bombs and arrows, rupees in bushes,
Metroidvania-style "dungeon key-item unlocks more overworld" gameplay, etc. On
the other hand, it's actually very _programmable_ : it comes with (or, at
least, used to come with) a built-in game editor, which can be used to
construct one's own 64x64-tile maps, and Actor-modeled "Graalscript" sprite
objects. (For example, you can drop any arbitrary image onto the map, and then
add hooks for "was obtained," "was selected in menu," and "was fired," and
you'll now have a new carryable item.) This content can then be pushed to the
server where (after moderation) any group of players can wander in and
interact with it. In fact, "outdoor" maps may actually get stitched right into
the main overworld. (This is still my gold-standard for the concept of "player
housing" in an MMO.) I would compare the usage-experience as similar to a 2D,
Zelda-motif'ed Second Life, or a sprite-based _MOO_.

After a while, Cyberjoueurs (the creators) came to the money-making strategy
of allowing people to run the server software on their own (centralized) game
servers, charging a fee but allowing people to make money off those "Player
Worlds" in turn. This then introduced waves of heavy customization, where
little of the original Zelda mechanics remain in many player-worlds (the UI
may be overridden at a low level in Graalscript to draw your own GUI, perform
your own sprite animations in reaction to arbitrary key-presses, etc.) Because
of this, most of the communal world-building aspect was abandoned, which is a
shame. It does still seem to play a lot like Zelda, though :)

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tammer
I concur with the rest of the comments - I don't understand how the author can
dismiss the plethora of RPG/adventure games, from GTA to Skyrim, as not being
inspired by Zelda's gameplay in the same way platformers can be said to be
derivative of Mario.

What's surprising is the fact that the "fanboyism" would only be augmented by
this conclusion, in that imitation is the greatest form of flattery. I'd say
the message would be even more powerful if he could articulate this genealogy.

On the other hand I realize the Zelda series is absolutely unique, but that
this is due its minimalism, its art, and its' developers' refusal to sacrifice
artistic continuity for the sake of graphic realism. The directing through the
history of the series is the element impossible to replicate.

------
elliottcarlson
Personally I think Crystalis for NES came pretty close to this criteria -
worth checking out if you haven't played it before.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystalis>

------
jamesgatz
What about Deus Ex? Though the original game doesn't have an overworld, it's
levels are quite large (and open ended) and it seems to meet all the other
criteria. I'd never thought about it before, but this might be why I enjoy the
game so much - it's a Zelda-type experience. I will admit that it lacks the
specific weapon/enemy combos the Zelda thrives on. And really, there's only
one way to play a Zelda game, while there are a number of very different ways
to play DX.

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minikomi
Chrono trigger is almost there. I really like the time based should-I-wait-
for-combo-or-go-now Combat system.. Also, it has one thing many zeldas do not
- various endings

------
latch
secret of mana?

~~~
sage_joch
As an aside, I could never understand why A Link to the Past was consistently
ranked higher than Secret of Mana in gaming magazines, top 100 lists, etc.
Secret of Mana seemed _vastly_ superior in almost every way.

~~~
epaga
My 6 year old son just played through it on our Wii and I was reminded how
awesome Secret of Mana is. I started a new game myself and was sucked in
instantly.

Excellent game.

------
hcmeier
I don't know if it passes the Zelda test but "Sphinx and the Cursed Mummy"
(GameCube, PS2, Xbox) is - as far as I remember - a good clone.

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ricw
Final fantasy ticks all the boxes mentioned. And I'd say its as great a game
as Zelda (though en large maybe not quite as "polished").

~~~
kelnos
FF has turn-based non-precision battles, unlike Zelda, so that fails the test
according to the article's list.

(I'm actually surprised the article didn't mention FF at all.)

~~~
cubicle67
Depends on which FF as the battle mechanic changed for each game

FFVII had (from memory; it's been a few years) a time based system - like turn
based, but each character has a timer run down after their turn until their
next one. You had only that much time to decide on your next attack, and with
3 of your characters in the same battle things could get frantic on occasion

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WiseWeasel
There's a Zelda-like game for iPhone that came out earlier this year, Sacred
Odyssey: Rise of Ayden, made by Gameloft.

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kmfrk
So many things define Zelda. _Ocarina of Time_ without the score would be a
completely different game. If it were so simple to make a clone, people would
already have done it.

Then again, I stopped bothering with the series after _Majora's Mask_ which I
didn't even like.

------
Stwerner
There is one for Sega Genesis that I remember liking a lot when I was younger:
Beyond Oasis

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Oasis>

------
petrichor
only commenting here because zelda is my favorite game ever and i want to go
over this list later (like when my daughter is a almost grown up), but if i
just bookmark it, it will be lost and i'll forget.

------
matteodepalo
You've just described Skyrim

~~~
darklajid
I didn't downvote you, but the article _directly explains_ why The Elder
Scrolls games are not relevant in his opinion.

The 'unique abilities' point he makes (whether you agree or not) fails here: I
love Skyrim (lvl 38 right now), but magic is not needed so far (I don't know
anything special), nor any skills. Combat is the same, whatever weapon you
use, from the process point of view (sure, some weapons look cooler. You can
do sneak attacks. Still - you do the very same thing, all the time).

~~~
MrScruff
I thought there were sections where your shout powers are required to progress
the plot?

~~~
darklajid
Just thought about it. I haven't finished the main quest/plot, so I cannot be
sure and I won't spoil any detail here. I cannot judge how far I'm into the
main plot but I did a ton of side quests and explored a lot, actually avoiding
progress on the main line.

You are correct, a couple of times (4?) I encountered a situation where I
needed a shout. Three categories:

1) Do the shout that everyone knows (no spoiler here: You get one 'for free'
at the start of the game), to prove that you can. I consider this pointless.
It's more like "Link, can you swing your sword". A press of a button, not
'changing the game' or 'necessary to advance' in a real sense. It's not that I
bomb my way into a previously hidden cave, I have to shout someone in the face
because the story requires it..

2) "I taught you this shout that you might never use again (for me, at least.
I tend to use just the first/basic one and even that's rare), show me that you
understand its use" (twice?). Again, this is not used to overcome anything,
it's just part of the narrative, to show your character's understanding, part
of the 'being taught' play. Doesn't qualify.

3) "This impassable area can only be accessed with a specific shout that you
get right at the entrance and that is useless everywhere else" (again, from my
experience so far). This is - a key. Not a tool. A key that you only get after
a couple of quests and that requires you to press Z (or whatever button on the
console of your choice) a couple times to pass the 'door' area. Once, so far
for me. Maybe I need to return in the future and use it again. Still a key in
my book.

------
ajuc
Dink Smallwood is a lot like Zelda.

------
zmonkeyz
check out the Neutopia series for the Turbo-Grafx 16.

