
New York vs San Francisco in fight for tech start-ups - PStamatiou
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16153167
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ibagrak
The conversation at the next table in NY is usually about real estate, hedge
funds or some wild combination of the two. In SF, it's about the next
Dropbox... for cats... on Facebook. Either way you are screwed. Every city is
an echo chamber in its own right.

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Aloisius
If this is a fight, I'm pretty sure only one side is fighting it. I don't
remember the last time I had a conversation about NY startups or NY vs SF with
anyone who wasn't from NY.

I find all the coverage of NY vs. SF rather strange. For the most part, we
don't really compete for the same money or for the same talent. Quite often we
don't even compete for the same users.

~~~
nknight
I'm particularly annoyed with the synonymization of "San Francisco" and
"Silicon Valley". They are not the same thing.

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Aloisius
Having grown up in Silicon Valley, I can honestly say that what people
consider to be Silicon Valley today was not anything close to what it was 20
years ago. So I don't take it so seriously anymore.

Since San Jose went from the gateway to Silicon Valley to the Heart of Silicon
Valley, I feel like San Francisco, which is actually part of the Peninsula,
can be part of SV.

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nknight
I've only been here six years, and truth be told I avoid SF at all costs, but
all I have to do is look at the job listings. SF listings are full of every
Social Web Media Infinity-point-Fad known to man.

South Bay -- Platforms, infrastructure, embedded systems, established
technologies, emphasis on availability and reliability. This is what the San
Francisco startups rely on to make sure their new web startup doesn't fall
over at the first sign of traffic.

One might see this as the traditional Silicon Valley maturing and even
stagnating in comparison to San Francisco's young, hip, fast-moving culture,
but I don't think it's reasonable to treat them as a unified entity.

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thomasgerbe
Well I think it has to do with how difficult it is to find affordable office
real estate for businesses that outgrow their space. I can't imagine a company
as big as Google or Facebook having their HQ in SF without having to build a
giant skyscraper in the Financial District.

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lazerwalker
Zynga's new HQ in SOMA houses upwards of 3,000 employees, which is probably
about on par with Facebook.

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jaysonelliot
As a New Yorker looking longingly westward, I have a question. Is the Valley
the only place it makes sense to be, or is it feasible to live in the East
Bay?

I know the real answer is that it doesn't matter where you are if you're the
right person working on the right project.

That said, I want to be somewhere that the social environment is a positive
one for someone living off his savings while trying to build a product and a
company. Things like a good coworking space and people who keep you motivated
and inspired can help a lot, in my opinion.

The only thing is, I want to move west for a nicer home life and standard of
living, I just don't want to leave city life altogether. That's why I'm
thinking of living in Oakland or Berkeley, and working in SF.

Bay Area residents, what do you think?

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skurry
I just saw today that Oakland is in the top 5 of the most dangerous cities in
the US. I know those Top Anything lists have to be taken with a grain of salt,
but Oakland seems to be in the (local) news constantly, and it's mostly not
good news. After having lived in the Bay Area for 4+ years, I've been to
Oakland only once, and that was to help someone move out of Oakland. I think
I'd rather move to San Jose if I wanted some city life, real estate prices
there have come down a bit. Avoid the east side though.

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Arelius
Ugh, live in San Jose? Never. Statistically, Oakland may be dangerous, but
it's also physically a large city. If you are in the right parts, you'll
certainly be as safe as if you lived in Berkeley, and safer then a lot of
parts of SF. Just stay in the nice parts of the City.

I haven't actually ever lived in Oakland though, but I've lived in Berkeley
for 5 years, live in SF now, and have many close friends who live in Oakland.
Parts of it are very nice!

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kellysutton
I'll just leave this here:
[http://kellysutton.tumblr.com/post/901431677/choosing-new-
yo...](http://kellysutton.tumblr.com/post/901431677/choosing-new-york-over-
san-francisco)

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zerathree
Am I the only one who thinks this video is silly?

... you need to roll your sleeves, work hard, and don't give up. It's not the
city that makes startups, it's you.

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reledi
In pg's words:

"The best one can say is: if you're in a startup hub, unexpected good things
will probably happen to you, especially if you deserve them.

[...]

I'm not saying it's impossible to succeed in a city with few other startups,
just harder. If you're sufficiently good at generating your own morale, you
can survive without external encouragement."

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PStamatiou
The reporter/camera man was surprised I stopped for coffee 3 times during the
day. Maybe that's why I talk so fast..

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jsherry
The NYC v. SF/SV debate might be a headline grabber, but frankly there's no
data supporting the fact that NYC is catching up tp the west coast. A more
interesting discussion can be found when comparing NY to Mass when it comes to
tech:

[http://www.cbinsights.com/blog/venture-capital/new-york-
vent...](http://www.cbinsights.com/blog/venture-capital/new-york-venture-
capital-widens-tech-gap-massachusetts-q1-2011)

We haven't published the updated figures through Q3, but the trend continues:
NY is consistently outpacing Mass in venture tech investment and has been
dating back to 2010. We don't publish a similar comaprison of NYC vs. SF/SV
for obvious reasons: it's not very interesting. But NYC has made recognizable
strides in building a tech ecosystem over the past couple years nonetheless.

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goodweeds
Every few months for the past decade or so I've seen articles like this
comparing the bay area to New York or Seattle. It seems that the New York and
Seattle companies all fall off the face of the earth a few minutes after I
read the article, never to be heard from again. I think that Seattle just
isn't large enough to really matter in the start-up world, and New York has
too many bankers and too few engineers. Bankers don't create value or
innovate, they just arbitrage. How can you innovate in a culture filled with
young, aggressive alpha male frat-boys entirely lacking in empathy who would
rather snort coke and go to strip clubs than stay up all night brainstorming
or .. working with hackers?

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leak
Fun video. I want some coffee.

I think there is something to be said about being in the valley and being part
of the collective. But, I also think being in other places (ie: LA, ATL, etc)
gives you a different perspective on what you're working on. And, for me,
having everyone in the coffee shop be part of startup is a bit of a burnout.
No escape.

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dr_
It's not clear whether by San Francisco this article is referring to Silicon
Valley, but assuming that's the case - NYC has nowhere near the tech ecosystem
that the Valley has in place. In the Valley you have the full gamut of
software and hardware companies and everything in between. In NYC, you have a
mix of pure software startups that have had some success, combined with the
typical industries which have deployed technology in a unique way (like Gilt
Groupe - where, apparently, only 5% of the employees actually work in tech:
<http://gigaom.com/2011/11/22/gilt-groupe-ipo/> ), and the majority of
software engineers in NYC still work for banks. It's going to take another
decade to realize whether or not NYC has any real potential here.

~~~
untog
That's only the case if you NYC intends to follow in Silicon Valley's exact
footsteps. IMO, it would be stupid to.

As you say, NYC's tech ecosystem isn't as big. But its finance ecosystem is
bigger. Also media, and fashion. I'm pretty confident that NYC can map out
it's own path, playing to the city's strengths. I don't think it needs to have
the same tech ecosystem that SV has.

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zalambar
When I see these location discussions I'm always curious how much of an impact
non-compete clauses play in starting or recruiting for a startup.

California has "16600. Except as provided in this chapter, every contract by
which anyone is restrained from engaging in a lawful profession, trade, or
business of any kind is to that extent void." and without such employee
protection in place I would be very nervous about trying to start a company
which might compete with a former employeer. Similarly it seems hard enough to
find talented designers and developers already without having to consider that
the individuals with the most relevant experience might be barred from
completing with their current employers.

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danberger
Is that Malcolm Gladwell in the coffee shop at 2:53?

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josephcohen
yup

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jeremyrwelch
and Nat Turner at the office

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AznHisoka
There should be a startup that has versus wars between 2 startups everyday,
decided by fans.

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forensic
Sounds like PR hit for New York venture capital.

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rmorrison
Even in the video, they're both talking more about Silicon Valley than NYC = )

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igorgue
Blablabla... we are all fools, thinking it's on our hands to decide where the
hub is.

It's the VCs that decides that, if they want you in fuckin' Kansas (no offense
to Kansas) I bet you all would move there.

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timjahn
We could spend a lot of time and energy trying to figure out what city is the
"coolest" for startups and produces the most innovative new social photo
sharing app.

Or we could simply spend all that time and energy on building our businesses
from wherever we are.

I'm doing the latter (from Chicago).

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sliverstorm
It's funny how little press Austin gets, considering the size of the tech
community out there.

~~~
cmdrreiki
We don't mind. We're doing just fine without more west coast transplants
complaining about the heat :)

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keecham
The one thing I didn't quite like when I heard PG speak at one of
YCombinator's events in NYC was his insistence that you need to move to the
Valley in order to launch a successful startup. Even at a seed-stage, there's
great funds out there (TechStars Network among others) that happily invest in
people all over the country.

~~~
nicholasjbs
_you need to move to the Valley in order to launch a successful startup_

pg didn't say that at YC NYC. He said he thought that the Valley was still
better than New York, but that New York was now good enough that startups
could succeed there. He also said he no longer tries to convince founders to
stay in the Valley if they're planning on moving back to New York after YC.

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davidhansen
Meanwhile, those of us continuing to succeed in the "tech backwaters" of the
US will be forever amused by the smug self-satisfaction coming out of the
"cool" cities. This little spat being just one example.

~~~
thomasgerbe
Yep, there's nothing cool about either of these cities. It stinks here. The
nightlife is poor, the people are stupid, the pay is low, the food terrible,
and there is no culture. The amount of successful startups is overly
exaggerated. There's maybe one. I think most are in Iowa or Austin. Rent is
expensive so please no one come to NY or SF.

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dsolomon
What fight? There's an abundance of tech personnel.

