
Valentine's Day Special: Bye Bye Tinder, Flirting in the Support Channel - rolfos
https://www.stackfield.com/blog/bye-bye-tinder,-flirting-in-the-support-channel-----34
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ascorbic
This is a bit odd. The tone of the post is "isn't this funny" when really it
should be "look at the crap that female support staff have to put up with".

~~~
ethanbond
Probably trying to find a balance between badtalking their customers and
sensibly bringing up an important topic.

Thus why half the comments are saying they were speaking harshly about their
customers, half are saying it's not serious enough in tone.

It seems obvious, based on the last sentence, that they think this is
something that must be addressed.

~~~
kelukelugames
People are sensitive. They snap at the smallest hint that their behavior is
wrong. Even if the behavior is only mildly inappropriate.

~~~
dmm
The problem is that society equates being sexist with being evil or bad, the
actions of sexist people as being inherently evil, and the words and opinions
of sexist people as dismissable out-of-hand.

So when you point out a sexist action the target of your comment interprets
that comment as you saying, "You are evil. Your actions are evil and anything
you say is not true."

The truth is that even well meaning people who want to treat others well and
are willing to learn still do insensitive or discriminatory things but the
language people use to point this out is very toxic and often assumes malice.

~~~
vertex-four
Or else, more generally... people are usually rather terrible at separating
out "your behaviour is wrong and needs to be fixed" from "you as a whole are a
terrible human being". People often define their identity by their actions,
and to claim that those actions might be problematic is to attack their
identity.

Even where blame is explicitly not placed on anyone, people tend to go on the
defensive as soon as you point out that their actions have unintended or un-
thought-of consequences.

~~~
kelukelugames
I need to say it this way. It's digestible.

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nmeofthestate
Subtitle "experiment reveals that organism's behaviour is influenced by most
important driver for genetic survival".

~~~
untog
Sub-subtitle being "human beings utterly unable to overcome base impulses
despite higher order brain functions", then?

~~~
gluelogic
No, just the ones in the cherrypicked examples for this article, perhaps.

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the_af
Not cherrypicked. The article mentions they were surprised by the amount of
inappropriate flirting. They only cherrypicked the most "amusing" attempts.

~~~
oldmanjay
I'm always amused when someone rebuts their own thesis in their conclusion.
Thanks for the laugh!

~~~
the_af
You're welcome, but of course I didn't rebut my own thesis:

1- Post says: _" Sub-subtitle being "human beings utterly unable to overcome
base impulses despite higher order brain functions", then?"_

2- A reply says: _" No, just the ones in the cherrypicked examples for this
article, perhaps."_

3- My post says (paraphrased for comprehension): "These aren't examples
cherrypicked to show people unable to refrain from inappropriate base
impulses. The only cherrypicking is for _amusement_. The rest of the article
explains that the number of people surrendering to inappropriate base impulses
was surprisingly high. So the sub-subtitle remains correct."

4- Your post.

Do you see it now? Laughter is always welcome, so feel free to continue :)

~~~
oldmanjay
Oh, I saw what you intended in your original post. I was just amused at how
poorly you phrased it.

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dudifordMann
Aww that was so cute, and only a hint of stalking... That whole entry read
much creepier than I bet they intended, and might speak to sexism on the web
(due to the fact that this is supposed to be a support channel). It would be
interesting if they did this experiment with a fictitious "Carl" employee, to
see if female users flirted in the same way.

~~~
vinceguidry
If you want to call it sexism.

I have a female friend who gets hit on virtually constantly. She works for
AT&T, and has described lines of hopefuls outside her door when she goes into
the office. (she now works mostly from home)

She never pays for lunch, never pays for dinner. Men offer her free trips to
different countries. She really is that attractive. But women who aren't quite
that attractive get hit on all the time too, maybe not to the same extent as
my friend does, but still a lot, in places that people would consider
inappropriate or unprofessional.

It's pretty much ubiquitous. So ubiquitous that even calling it 'sexism'
almost seems to downplay it. Because these little flirtatious interactions are
easily hid from other people, particularly other guys, it's easy for guys, who
are never the recipients of similar attention, to remain unaware of, or worse,
fool themselves into believing that women are not being constantly assessed
for the potential for romantic or sexual liaison.

My friend started highlighting it for me, and then I started seeing it
_everywhere_.

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JoeAltmaier
A tragedy played out every day, for sure. I wonder in all that, about the part
where she _accepts_ all this attention, letting guys pay for everything. What
if she didn't play along?

I know, blaming the victim. But the social game is complex, and she is
definitely a part of it.

~~~
untog
I've talked to a few girls about this. While some are absolutely just out for
all the freebies they can get, others have said that men will get increasingly
aggressive when you turn down offers for stuff like that - like they _insist_
on being "a provider" and you turning that down is an insult to their manhood.

Seems like a no-win situation all round, really. If you take it, you're
encouraging his behaviour (and making him feel like you're indebted to him).
If you reject it you're going to find out how he deals with rejection, which,
particularly in drunken scenarios, can literally be dangerous to you.

~~~
dudifordMann
"an insult to their manhood." "can literally be dangerous to you."

Is that not indicative of being the product of a sexist environment? A man
that cannot accept rejection and therefor feels he has a right to behave in a
dangerous way, seems to be a problem with his view of himself, and men as a
whole, the world.

~~~
vertex-four
> Is that not indicative of being the product of a sexist environment?

A large number of modern feminists strongly believe that most *ism is a result
of institutional and societal force - i.e. that people oppress others because
they've been taught to, their society pressures them to do so, and that not
doing so can result in harm to them.

The problem is... how do you solve this? Whose fault is it? The institutional
pressures are almost certainly not any individual's fault. But the fact
remains that on an individual level, the man in this example is oppressing the
woman, and something has to be done about that in the short term.

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dkyc
Hm. Of course it's unprofessional to hit on a support agent, but the way this
blog-post is shit-talking about their very own customers (even joking that one
of them is probably too poor for champagne because they are on the free-side
of their freemium plan) seems absolutely bad to me.

Edit: Especially since the product focusses on being " _end-to-end-encrypted_
" and privacy minded, and they just purposely "leak" their customer
conversations like that.

~~~
untog
That's why I'm glad they did this. Tone of the post notwithstanding, it's a
great example of the weird sexism that exists online, and I think they deserve
credit for showing it, even at the cost of the ego of their own customers.

~~~
lloyd-christmas
I don't think it has anything to do with ego. Regardless of how shitty my
customer is, I'm not going to display them to the world (barring any related
legal actions).

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kelukelugames
There has to be a guide for support staffs on rejecting unwelcome advances.

EG.

If the customer compliments your looks then reply with "??". Do not encourage
them with a "Thank you."

~~~
tedmiston
I feel like it's probably better to drive the conversation to an end kindly
than open up the opportunity to reply.

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AznHisoka
I wonder if this would had an effect on conversions. Are people more likely to
buy a product if the salesperson they're talking to is an attractive woman (or
attractive man if the buyer is female)

~~~
dsmithatx
In Austin, TX. there is a consulting firm and all employees are super
attractive females. I went there for an interview and was met by three ladies
who looked like they should be models. I thought it was strange but, had no
idea this is all they hired. Later I went to another consulting firm and took
a better job. When I mentioned to my new recruiter about interviewing for the
other job he said, "Oh yeah I wish I could get a job over there it's nothing
but hot girls". It must work because they are still doing it a year later from
what I hear.

~~~
stfu
What kind of "consulting" are we talking about here?

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awl130
This title is very misleading. Flirting connotes a two way interaction. In
fact, it isn't flirting until a romantic advance is reciprocated either
explicitly or implicitly. This is just hitting on someone.

~~~
thyrsus
I once proposed that the way to express one's attraction to a person was to
treat the person nicely, e.g., holding a door for them. My interlocutor
responded "So, flirt with them." I suddenly had no idea was "flirting" was. I
thought flirting meant actions intended to propose amorous activity (American
Heritage Dictionary: "To amuse oneself in playful amorousness; play lightly or
mockingly at courtship"), and my sincere intent had been to remove that
element. Had I been flirting all these years? Is it impossible _not_ to flirt,
while treating people in a warm manner?

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deedub
I did this same exact thing for a short period, except I used our company
admin (with her permission). I thought it would be neat to have a face for
support via email and chat and if you called us you'd most likely be greeted
by her as well.

It was hard to believe how many people wanted to chat, get a walk through of
our product or have a call until they got handed off to a male in sales or
support. So many no shows for meetings.

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downandout
So the headline here is that men will hit on attractive women, even in
situations where it may not be appropriate. That is truly shocking.

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tedmiston
Maybe we're all thinking: It's embarrassing that this happens, but would be an
interesting thing for more companies to try. Scientifically we know we're
happier when we interact with attractive people.

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jorgenhorstink
Am I the only one who thinks it is odd to fake an employee? It just feels
dishonest and utterly wrong to me.

