
Son, as soon as someone puts their hands on you... - kapilkaisare
http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/?p=283
======
Legion
I firmly believe that earnest efforts to suppress any and all physical
violence in schools has created an environment where bullies are able to
operate without repercussion.

Good kids don't "fight". It's so ingrained into the head of the good kids that
they are terrified of fighting even to defend themselves.

Thus, bullies get to bully with no fear. There's no consequence. Whereas when
a weaker kid fights back, even if the bully is strong enough to "win" the
battle, he still gets _hit_ _in_ _the_ _mouth_ and does not like it. Bullies
much prefer low-hanging fruit that doesn't fight back.

My children, when school age (maybe not 1st grade, but certainly by junior
high), will be sat down and have the following explained to them:

"You are _allowed_ to defend yourself. You will avoid physical conflict
whenever possible, but should you ever be physically threatened or subject to
ongoing torment, you have the GREEN LIGHT to use physical force to protect
yourself, OR to assist a friend who is unable to protect themselves."

"You may get in trouble with your school. THIS IS OK. Your well-being is more
important than their rules. If you get suspended for three days, then I'll
take three days off work and we'll keep up with your studies. I will be on
your side. Do not let concern over the school rules stop you at all from
defending yourself."

"However, you will never use force to do anything but protect yourself or your
friend. If I find that YOU have been the aggressor, I will _smite_ you."

I'll probably need to work on that speech a bit between now and then, but you
get the idea. :)

I was lucky. I was never the small or weak one. Even still, I can think back
to a couple of situations where fear of parental response prevented me from
protecting myself as well as I should have. My children will have it made
known to them that they will not be "assumed guilty" when a situation comes up
where they physically defend themselves. No aggression towards others will be
tolerated, but they will be trusted to properly use their discretion, and
until they prove themselves guilty, they will be assumed innocent.

~~~
sixtofour
I've had essentially this conversation with my son. Mine breaks down to:

    
    
      - Attempt to walk away from verbal abuse.
      - If it gets physical, fight like hell until the threat stops, then walk away.
    

Your goal is not to "win" or injure, your goal is to walk away.

~~~
Legion
"Until the threat stops". Perfect words. That will work its way into my new
and improved speech.

~~~
pjscott
It's a bit sinister, though, don't you think? If you're dealing with a
vengeful bully, the threat never really stops until you've injured him enough
that he will be unwilling or unable to hurt you back later.

~~~
mst
The trick is to damage one of them badly enough (albeit non-permanently) that
nobody else wants to try. I generally found that picking somebody clean off
the floor by the throat and holding them in midair until the look came into
their eyes where I knew they thought they were going to die was a good option.
Doesn't give them much except a day or two of a sore throat in terms of
physical damage but you only have to do it once every two or three years to be
marked "not an easy target".

------
maxawaytoolong
It's sort of embarrassing this is the number one story on hacker news.
Especially since it's 6 weeks old and was already posted before, and mostly
seems fabricated. It reads like some fat kid ender's game revenge fantasy. I
guess maybe this is what happens in white suburban schools? Cuz fights in the
schools where I used to teach math would end up with kids in the hospital or
dead. Or, I guess I don't really know, because both parties would both never
come back to school.

I guess if Bobby Bully is putting beans in your pants you can try your karate
kid routine on him. Maybe Eye of The Tiger will start playing and after you
make him cry by ballet kicking him in the nose you and Elisabeth Shue can go
share a milkshake at Pop's and then make out at the drive in. But in real life
Jesus and Jose and their 20 cousins and homies just show up after school and
steal all your clothes, your bike, your money and throw you into the dumpster.

I guess I don't ever really believe these stories, because whenever i've seen
someone fight back it just turned into a drawn out war, not some fairytale
DeGrassi afterschool special outcome where the bully "learned his place"

~~~
_pius
" _I guess maybe this is what happens in white suburban schools?_ "

" _[I]n real life Jesus and Jose and their 20 cousins and homies just show up
..._ "

Jesus and Jose? Homies? Just. Stop.

Was it really necessary to inject some sort of pathetic, dogwhistle racial
component into this? Why are you trying to cast a universal problem like
bullying into a phenomenon where the scary minorities are picking on white
kids?

~~~
neworbit
Curious assumption that it's the white kids who are getting picked on...

~~~
_pius
That was the implication, yes.

------
ErrantX
Not even slightly controversial here.

I suffered 5 years of bullying at school; and tried everything to get it to
stop, without success.

Until one day I just got fed up, walked up to the main tormentor in class and,
unprovoked, hit him really hard in the mouth (I think I broke his nose, I'm
not sure). Was in weeks of trouble (with the staff) :) but once that was out
of the way no one touched me again.

I've never outright recommended this approach to anyone; and indeed it's
probably not the right thing to do all the time. But some sort of short-sharp-
shock can work just as well (so... barging them to the ground etc.) as long as
it is sufficiently hard.

~~~
snorkel
Same here. My schools days taught me a simple recipe for bully repellent:
headlock their neck and pound on their face like a jack hammer. Size doesn't
matter. Winning and losing doesn't matter.

But I also learned another interesting bit of bully psychology: they tease
EVERYBODY, especially their friends. So tease them back. I discovered
sometimes the supposed bully is just goofing around and this is how they
relate to people.

Thirdly I discovered a simpler approach thanks to punk rock ethos: Don't even
give a fuck about what other people think of you and let them know you don't
give a fuck.

~~~
Dylanlacey
This only works once they're old enough to realize that you're ALLOWED to not
give a fuck. Otherwise, it just marks you out for more.

So I'd stick with the hitting. I don't think people understand much else until
they mature a little past grade 8-ish mentality.

------
pragmatic
"This comment will be controversial, especially for North Americans and
Western Europeans."

No not really. It will perhaps offend the bizarre establishment that has
invaded school administration. However, this is bully repulsion 101.

If the system doesn't protect you, you must find a technique that does. Would
we avoid school shootings,etc, if we taught our kids to stand up for
themselves, don't let yourself get bullied? Real self respect vs the
artificial "everyone's special" of today's thinking?

Sidenote: Why is this behavior (bullying) tolerated in school? What other part
of our culture accepts bullying as "part of growing up" or "just the way it
is?"

~~~
Eliezer
_Why is this behavior (bullying) tolerated in school?_

They're just children. They're not going to pay you. They're not going to
vote. Their parents aren't actually the ones getting kicked (WOW would you see
a different scenario in that case). It's easier to write it off as "childish"
and do nothing. And if you actually sided with a child, there would be loss of
status from affiliating with such a low-prestige person.

Same reason society tolerates rape in juvenile prisons. Same reason textbooks
and teaching are so uniformly awful. Children have no power, and there's
nothing to be gained politically or socially from siding with someone who
can't side back.

~~~
jules
Their parents care more about them than any politician cares about his voters.

~~~
Eliezer
Faint praise.

~~~
jules
Not true, in most cases.

------
nhashem
I liked this post until he started talking about fighting the Chinese mafia
and jump kicking criminals. At that point I wasn't sure whether his point was,
"take your own bullying into your own hands" or "watch me brag about how
badass I am on the internet."

~~~
pkulak
Exactly. Seemed like a blog post by Dwight Schrute to me.

------
steauengeglase
Essay time.

In my freshman and sophomore years in college I did some substitute teaching.
It was easy money. The state gives you $90 if you can pass a TB test and
everyone makes it through the day with all digits. Simple enough.

So one day I was subbing in a high school math class. I looked over the lesson
plan and noticed that one kid was marked as a "disruption". As I'm going over
the roll I'm looking for him. Football player? Nope, not him. Thug kid? Nah.
Smug asshole attention seeker? No. Oh, there he is and holy shit it's me!
White kid with glasses, either over or under weight and reading Musician's
Friend, probably has a copy of Elektor hidden in there somewhere. His bookbag
has every one of his books in it because he doesn't want to go to his locker.
Either someone keeps messing with him or he subconsciously doesn't want to
remember his combination.

Soon the disruption became obvious. Every few minutes someone would hit him or
yell something at him and he kept withdrawing into his shell. After I threw a
couple out it stopped. After class I stopped him on the way out and chatted
for a few minutes. I was right, there was a copy of Elektor in his bag and no,
he couldn't remember his combination.

During lunch I hung out in the teacher's lounge and chatted with a few of the
teachers. Finally I asked them about him. It was a consensus, he was a
disruption and they couldn't wait to find a reason to expel him. This was the
point where I realized I'd never make it as a teacher. After years of being
angry at the other kids it never occurred to me that they were also the enemy.
Suddenly the codes made sense. How many times had I heard teachers say that
students should be able to "learn in a non-disruptive environment"? Fuck, they
wanted me to get thrown to the wolves; it was always a part of the plan. I was
just a cancer in the education system's body, something that didn't just work
its way out, despite their best non-efforts.

The following year I took a job in a call center and moved to their IT dept.
Subbing was easy, but at least IT didn't feel like blood money. There was a
silver lining. I ran into that kid a few years ago in a restaurant. He was
married with a kid of his own. He rushed and grabbed by hand. "I just want to
say thanks. You were right, they were all assholes."

That was by far my most satisfying job related moment. Only Hallmark moment I
have to offer.

~~~
poet
I upvoted you. It's a good story and far more common than most people would
like to believe. But I would caution you against generalizing your anecdotal
evidence to the profession of teaching as a whole. Some teachers would do
exactly what you did and throw the bully's out and the vast majority wouldn't
blame the victim. In my relatively large (but admittedly still anecdotal)
experience with CPS and public suburban schools, I've only seen teachers close
to what you describe in a small fraction.

------
lhorie
>> I had two guys try to mug me the other day in a dangerous area. Bad
mistake, doubled one of them over with a kick the stomach and shouted at the
other one, YOU WANT TO DIE? BACK DOWN, STAY BACK. He did, he let me walk away
while his criminal buddy was doubled over.

Where I come from, the third kid, who was pretending to be a bystander all
along, with the gun under his shirt, would've shot you from behind your back.

Just because resorting to violence to deal with bullies works doesn't mean you
should go all rambo with actual criminals.

~~~
pjscott
I'm curious why this third kid would escalate the crime from mugging to
assault with a deadly weapon and possibly murder. It sounds pretty irrational.

~~~
anigbrowl
a) Territorial protection. Gang members (as in an actual criminal
organization) want a monopoly on illegal economic activity in an area. Thugs
don't anticipate making a lot of money but can get social status via fear -
the ability to act with impunity if they have limited imagination, the ability
to collect rents in the form of protection money if they have more.

b) It gives him a hold over the other two. If you're unfortunate enough to be
attacked by a group, you'll often find that the physically smallest person
calls the shots. They may look like a beta (waiting until the bigger guys have
had their fun) but this is misleading. In a situation like this your aim is to
isolate this person from his muscle - easier said than done, of course.

c) If they're professionals rather than doing it for kicks, dead men tell no
tales. Forensic science helps, but only up to a point. A rainy night in a back
alley won't leave much evidence, unless the criminal is foolish enough to
retain a weapon or cell phone.

------
_pius
I'm reminded of what Malcolm X said to the civil rights demonstrators:

 _Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone
puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery._

~~~
Locke
I don't necessarily disagree with the original article or this sentiment.
However, I have a hard time reconciling telling your child to stick up for him
or herself when bullied vs "send him to the cemetary" or "As soon as he turns
around, hit him in the back of the head as hard as you can. If you’re much
smaller, pick up a hard object and do it."

These are children and their judgement is not always the best. Do you really
want to risk that your child kills another child by accident while following
your advice?

Will your child know how far is far enough? Is there a chance he or she might
over-react to a situation that is not truly threatening?

~~~
roc
Do you think the bullies know how far is far enough?

Bullying escalates. If you don't trust your kid to make a judgment at some
point, it's basically a matter of time before they get seriously injured
themselves.

I'd rather teach my kid to stick up for himself and have the mistakes happen
at the level of "knocked out tooth/broken finger" than letting things escalate
in the first place.

~~~
seldo
So your kid gets beat up. Then your kid beats up the bully. Then the bully
comes back with a knife the next day. Or a gun.

Bullying _does_ escalate. Therefore, teaching your kid to escalate on their
side as well just makes it happen faster. The solution to escalating warfare
is to break the cycle.

~~~
chc
The point is that it only escalates when it's not deterred. "Break the cycle"
is a platitude, not advice. What is involved in breaking this cycle, if not
stopping the bullies?

------
seldo
Fuck this.

I'm not a violent person. I never have been and never will be. I do not
consider it a valid way to solve problems. Reverting to our animal nature is
rejecting the progress we have made in our brains overriding unproductive
basic survival impulses in favour of smarter solutions.

That's not to say this approach doesn't work. For some people it works
perfectly. But hitting back only works if you're stronger than them. Otherwise
they'll just kick your ass and things will get worse. And even if it works,
all you've done is validate the world view that might makes right.

The world is full of idiots who ruin the lives of others, both at the micro
level of domestic abuse and the macro level of dictatorships, because of this
principle. It's the law of the jungle, and you know what? We don't live in the
fucking jungle any more. We live in a civilized society, where intelligence
can triumph over brute strength.

Nobody should know that better than HN, a community of nerds who dream of
changing the world one keystroke at a time. I'm disappointed to see how much
support there is for this idea.

The smart solution to bullying is to make it socially unacceptable. Kids don't
take dumps in the hallways because there's no payoff to doing so. But if you
beat up the unpopular kid, you get some credibility. Rob them of that
credibility, rob them of their motivation, and you end bullying, without
swinging a fist.

~~~
zavulon
> But hitting back only works if you're stronger than them. Otherwise they'll
> just kick your ass and things will get worse.

I can't even begin to list how many things are wrong with this. So fighting is
only worth it when you know you're going to win?

The author's point is if you stand up for yourself against a much bigger and
stronger bully, you WILL get your ass kicked. But that's fine. Everybody gets
their ass kicked once in a while. But the fact that you were not afraid to
stand up for yourself gets you respect. The bullies will likely move on onto
the easier targets that don't fight back.

I agree with 99% of this article. Except this:

> I’ve got some sets of names I’d name my sons as they’re born. They’re
> unconventional names – Cosimo Marshall or Aurelius Marshall if the boy’s
> mother was Italian, Zhuge Marshall if he was Chinese. The boy will likely
> get teased.

Ya think?? And even though you realize it, you're still planning to do it? I'm
sure the kid will be VERY grateful when he grows up.

~~~
chc
Naming a kid something that will get him teased makes about as much sense as
picking a fight with someone you know will beat you. In fact, Sebastian
actually says the weird names are a way of picking a fight with the bullies of
the world, just like you approved of earlier.

~~~
nailer
If you hurt someone, they wont want to attack you again, regardless of who
wins.

~~~
maxawaytoolong
Yeah right, this is exactly what they want to do.

It's bizarre this is even considered, because this whole thread is filled with
revenge fantasies about bullies. Why would you think the bully is just going
to think "oh yes, zhuge omarion lionhearted is the superior fighter, I
concede" like in some corny kung-fu movie? If you hurt a bully, they are just
going to plot out how they are going to hurt you worse the next chance they
get...

Finally, if violence is truly the answer, why not just go all-out Columbine
from the beginning? There's no more bullying when the bully is dead. Then the
problem is truly "solved," right?

~~~
gaius
_If you hurt a bully, they are just going to plot out how they are going to
hurt you worse the next chance they get..._

It doesn't work like that. In practice, the bully will take the path of least
resistance and pick on someone else. Which sucks for them, but the hierarchy
has now shifted - the original victim has moved up, but the capability/social
capital of the new lowest member of the group is still higher than theirs was.
It doesn't take many iterations of this cycle before the bully will either
meet their match or have a critical mass of the class openly against them.

This happened in my primary school, actually, the bully in this case was a kid
who'd been held back from a higher year. Eventually simply no-one would talk
to him. Problem solved.

------
jbooth
I was with this guy until he started talking about mouthing off to a mafia guy
in Japan.

Kid stuff is kid stuff, adult stuff is different. That 9th grader had almost
certainly never tortured someone with a car battery. Same with the muggers -
who's to say that they're sane in the least? What if they're really strung-out
and have knives, now you're going to the hospital.

~~~
superchink
I was hoping someone else felt this way.

In my view, it's never worth risking your life to protect your belongings. Be
like Roger Sterling in Mad Men and give up your money & your jewelry.

~~~
rdl
The reason for shooting a mugger is that the situation is inherently one where
your life is at risk. Even if you totally comply, you could be killed.

Shooting an attacker is safer for you. It is usually far more expensive,
though -- maybe 1-5k in legal costs even if it doesn't get much followup (and
if it goes to trial, could be over 100k), potential civil suits, and of course
the cost of firearms and training to even have the choice.

I would definitely toss a $500 wallet and run if it were at the time a safer
choice, even with a firearm. But, I would have no problem killing to defend my
life, either.

~~~
superchink
I guess I made my comment as someone who doesn't currently carry a firearm. I
suppose the situation changes when you're capable of disabling the attacker
outright by shooting him.

I was speaking mainly to a situation where you'd be inciting some sort of a
fight or a struggle with someone crazy enough to attempt a mugging. In this
case, I still stand by my feeling that you're better off complying.

If you're able, by all means, protect yourself. You'll find no objections from
me there.

~~~
jbooth
It definitely doesn't change when you're capable of shooting the person, just
as the GP post said -- the first hour of legal fees will be bigger than what
you had in your wallet.

Now, a certain feeling of invincibility may be priceless to some people, but
they're far less invincible than they think - if you go around expecting
violence then it's probably more likely to happen to you. Not to mention that,
statistically, you're shortening your lifetime more by owning a gun (I like
guns but don't own one) than you're extending it by the small chance that
someone's coming for your life and you actually see them coming.

~~~
rdl
There are a lot of statistics about guns and survival, and it's not 100%
conclusive. Most "bad" firearms related deaths which happen to firearms owners
are suicides, followed by children and stupid accidents, followed by domestic
violence with guns. I'm unlikely to suffer from any of these.

Carrying a concealed weapon (where legal) has a lower benefit than carrying a
cellphone and first aid/trauma kit (which I also carry, and will try to get to
EMT-I certification again, if not paramedic), but I still think it's a net
improvement in your personal safety, assuming you're trained and competent.

The biggest disadvantage is that in some states you can't go into a restaurant
where alcohol is served (even if you're going for a meal and don't drink), and
of course the fashion compromise of a 1-4 pound hunk of metal/plastic/wood.

I think most gun owners disbelieve "invincibility" even more than non-gun
owners when it comes to guns -- handguns especially are fairly non-lethal (at
3', I'd rather have a knife), and give an advantage to he who initiates
violence. I'd be very happy to trade a firearm for a Dune-style shield or
something.

I think another factor is that a responsible gun owner who is carrying is
probably more likely to avoid places where an incident might happen -- aside
from bars, I'd also be a lot more likely to be less confrontational in traffic
or other situations if I realized there was a potential it could escalate to
shooting. I've never been involved in any kind of scuffle or anything while
carrying a firearm, and while I actively avoid "bad areas" to the extent
possible no matter what, it's another factor. Although I am willing to stop to
render aid to stranded motorists when armed, whereas unless it's a very
clearcut situation, just drive on (and optionally call 911) otherwise.

------
iwr
It's strange how a society supposedly obsessed with safety nonetheless thinks
normal to place a child in such an environment, then do everything to prevent
them from defending themselves. It's a prison environment, only the inmates
did nothing to deserve being there.

The problem could be that kids don't interact much with people outside their
age group. They have no reference point of how adults behave. It becomes a
sort of Lord of the Flies world.

~~~
pjscott
Our society isn't really obsessed with safety. It's obsessed with being safe
from rare, sensational dangers.

If we really cared about safety, we'd focus less on airport security and
"stranger danger", and more on getting people to wear seatbelts and never
drive while intoxicated. Statistically, automobile accidents are by far the
leading cause of accidental death in the US.

------
toast76
I'm the youngest of three boys. We all went to the same high school. When I
arrive in Year 7, there were apparently quite a few kids "lining up" to have a
go at me. My brothers were well respected academics as well as both celebrated
for their Basketball and Athletics achievements, and I was the geek.

My group of geek friends and I took our share of hassling in the first week.
It was probably day 4 when one of the bullies had a go at a friend of mine
(over a paper aeroplane if I recall) so I stood up to him. I then got backed
into a corner by 2 or 3 of them who started really hammering me.

Something snapped in me.

I started kicking, punching, kneeing, throwing windmills and swearing like a
crazy person. I don't know how long it was before a teacher came out and broke
it up. But I'm sure it wasn't long, and I'm dead certain that I barely made
contact with anything. We all sat in the principals office and got a stern
talking to. The older kids were suspended, I was let off...probably because my
brothers were star pupils.

They thought I was bat-shit crazy. For the next 6 years I wasn't hassled
again.

------
kno
I grew up in a tough neighborhood, lower middle class, where we fix issues
with fists fights. My dad, a tough guy, hated bullying period. He did not
tolerate his child being the bully; he made us understand that is was shameful
to mistreat the weak and the young. He always told us to stand our ground when
attacked, he said if the attacker was stronger and bigger we could use a
stick, a stone or anything that could really hurt the attacker. My dad said we
should not respond to a push with a push, he thought an attack should be met
with a response x times. A punch for a push; my two brothers and I were known
for our fierce defense abilities, which made us safe from bullying growing up.

Today as a parent, I give the same advice to my children. We are a minority in
our neighborhood and my kids go to great school. They have been through
multiple attacks from bullies. My son is in middle school and so far has been
able to fight back at many would be bullies. I made it clear to the principal
and some parents of bullies that my children are permitted to fight back when
attacked, that I will stand by them in all circumstances.

So far it has been working pretty well next year my daughter will be in high
school and my son is a reputed defensive player in the basketball team.

------
JabavuAdams
I would phrase the advice to sound less hair-trigger, but I essentially agree.
"Ignore the bully", or "don't fight back" are terrible advice that put the
(your) child at risk.

I think where parents get confused is on the individual vs. group distinction.
We look at the world, see all the various tribal wars with their counter-
attacks and counter-counter-attacks, and erroneously conclude that violence
doesn't solve anything.

We're not talking suicide bombs and airstrikes, here. If Alice shoves Billy,
and Billy shoves Alice back, there's often no escalation, and no-one else is
harmed. The issue is settled, and everyone's still alive and well. This is
much better than ongoing bullying.

------
brianmwang
His account of the 9th grader reminds me of the advice to punch out the
toughest looking guy in the room on your first day of prison to establish a
reputation of unfuckablewithness.

~~~
draebek
Agreed. My next question is: why are our _schools_ comparable to prisons in
this way? Is it really such an inescapable facet of human nature?

Why can't we change the culture of school such that, at least while you're
actually _in_ school, you're focused on being the smartest person you can be
and not looking over your shoulder?

~~~
jcromartie
It's because they are both institutions founded on compulsory incarceration
where rules and regulations reign supreme over common sense and human decency.

At least, I think that might have something to do with it.

~~~
jacoblyles
You'd have to be some sort of dangerous, crazy teabagger to suggest that kids
and parents should have the right to choose a school that they like.

------
kenjackson
Why don't parents do something? I'd have no problem, as an adult, confronting
a kid and telling them that if they touched my son again I'd personally
deliver them to juvy where I can make accomodations for _buddies_ they don't
appreciate.

And unless they're already hardened gang members, this should work pretty
well, and probably breaks no laws. And if they do do it again, live up to your
promise, to the extent possible.

If they are hardened gang members, you should probably get your child out of
the situation, because fighting back is a losing proposition.

------
magicseth
It's a really fine line. This type of response can just as easily backfire on
you. One punch back can escalate things well beyond the original infraction,
the next thing you know, you are in the hospital. Embarrassing someone who
fancies themselves the leader of a pack is never a good idea. Even if you
escape unscathed one day, the very next day you may be met with an even larger
pack of people.

It is this very mindset that perpetuates violence, it doesn't end it. For
Sebastian, the line is clear "as soon as someone puts their hands on you," but
everyone has a different line. Taunting someone every day for months can push
someone beyond their line, and when they push you away out of desperation they
have "put their hands on you."

Being strong and standing up for yourself does not require physical violence.
Understanding the reason someone is picking on you is perhaps the best way to
actually stop it, and perhaps even address the root cause, making the road
better for the next person in line. When complaining about the bully in my
elementary school, my parents explained to me the social situation that he was
brought up in, and how we were so lucky in comparison. I didn't "love" them,
but I understood them much better, and learned how to avoid getting in their
way. Hitting back wouldn't have solved anything.

------
Reclix
I'd say every situation has an escalating set of responses, and I certainly
don't believe that violence is always unacceptable, especially when nonviolent
means have failed.

I'd suggest that a large part of why MLK succeeded is because Malcolm X was
loudly stating the alternative.

I've never been physically bullied, as I've always been both a dork and an
athlete, but I was teased relentlessly early on. My dad's advice was always to
ignore, and this just didn't work well enough. That's how I discovered the
power of personality - the power to fire back is (sadly) what wins respect of
children.

The challenge once you've gained the skill is to reign it in - to be
intentional in your response, and to sometimes decide that nonviolence, or
silence IS actually the way to go.

------
mcantor
Oh for fuck's sake. People, _there are many reasons why bullying occurs_ , and
_there are many types of bullies_ , and _there are many types of kids who get
bullied_.

Does anyone out there _honestly_ believe that there's a single solution that
will work in _every_ situation? I hate to be so condescending, but really now!
On a site like this, where we make careers out of handling edge conditions, we
should know better.

If a kid punches you because he hates himself, should you punch him back? What
if a kid punches you because he's trying to fit in with a circle of friends,
and they hate themselves, but he just kinda has low self-esteem? What if a kid
punches you because you remind him of a kid that bullied _him_ last year? What
if a kid punches you because he's having a bad day, but he feels bad about it
after? What if a kid punches you because he likes you, but he has an abusive
family environment and punching is the only way he knows to express affection?
What if a kid punches you because he hates himself, but he hates everyone else
too? What if a kid punches you because he has low self esteem and he's jealous
of how smart you sounded in class just now?

The answer to everything up there is not "JUST PUNCH THE FUCKER" or "JUST HUG
THE FUCKER." Come _on_. They are all unique situations in their own right, and
they _all_ must be considered separately. In fact, each of those has different
solutions based on who the _target_ is. They're schoolchildren. They're
_humans_. They're not computer programs! They're not predictable automatons!
If you're new in school and you fuck someone up on the first day, that's
completely different from being bullied for six years and then _finally_
punching back. The first has a higher likelihood of getting you left alone.
The second will probably make it worse! If you're a small kid and you try to
give them a hug, that's different from if you're a big kid. They could say the
small kid is only being friendly because he's too wimpy to fight back. They
could say a big kid is only punching because he's too stupid to think of a
comeback. _IT DEPENDS_. It fucking _DEPENDS_.

The whole reason "bullying" remains an "unsolved issue" is because people keep
suggesting silver bullets, and there fucking _isn't one_. Instead of attacking
each other's silver bullets, why don't we take the difficult but arguably more
_worthwhile_ path of identifying different motivations for bullying and how
the psychology of differing responses works? Because this "be friendly"/"punch
them out" bullshit sounds more and more like emacs vs. vim to me.

PLEASE?

~~~
siculars
Uh, no. If someone punches me there really is no decision matrix in which I
will not punch him back. His motivations are frankly irrelevant to me and are
something he needs to work out on his own.

~~~
mcantor
Congratulations! You've found a formula that works... _FOR YOU_!

~~~
invisible
Works for me.

~~~
mcantor
I don't really understand where my point fell short. So, if a bully punches
you, you will punch them back. Good. Okay. I honestly have no issue with that.
But why do you feel the need to suggest that it's the _only_ possible way that
could work for _everyone_ who ever gets punched by a bully?

~~~
invisible
If someone punches me without any provocation (or even a reasonable
consequence) and I am pretty sure they'll do it again without provocation, the
only reasonable thing to do is defend oneself by hitting back. That is
actually most of the basis of martial arts (in almost all forms), so it's a
pretty solid idea. I wouldn't do it if I knew they were in a gang and I'd
likely end up dead, but that is a reasonable consideration of the situation.

~~~
mcantor
I believe that those qualifications are important, though. And they're
different for every person. You wouldn't do it if they were in a gang. What
about Gandhi? ( _"Whenever you are confronted with an opponent. Conquer him
with love."_ ) What about Buddha[1]? What about Jesus? ( _"Turn the other
cheek."_ ) Are they all unreasonable fools--were they "doing it wrong," beyond
the shadow of a doubt? Or were their considerations reasonable?

Aikido is a notable exception to your point about martial arts. I highly
suggest _Aikido and the New Warrior_ , an excellent book of modern anecdotes
describing what it really means to practice "the way of loving harmony."

I'm not saying that hugging is the only way to respond to bullies. In fact,
I'm not even saying that _I_ would hug an aggressive bully instead of
punching. My point is that you cannot simply say "Quid pro quo, break his
nose" and be done with it. Life is more complicated than that.

[1] [http://viewonbuddhism.org/dharma-quotes-quotations-
buddhist/...](http://viewonbuddhism.org/dharma-quotes-quotations-buddhist/non-
violence-ahimsa.htm):

'You're a fool' said the veteran, 'What if someone had wiped out all the
Buddhists in the world and you were the last one left. Would you not try to
kill the person who was trying to kill you, and in doing so save Buddhism?'

Thich Nhat Hanh answered patiently, 'It would be better to let him kill me. If
there is any truth to Buddhism and the Dharma, it will not disappear from the
face of the earth, but will reappear when seekers of truth are ready to
rediscover it.

'In killing I would be betraying and abandoning the very teachings I would be
seeking to preserve. So it would be better to let him kill me and remain true
to the spirit of the Dharma.'

~~~
invisible
Those cited above likely had others that were less moral attitudes that were
willing to break from rank to save the higher up. Jesus is not a very good
example for many reasons, but the others lived by very different rules and
morals.

Morality is very different from reasonable consideration of facts. I do not
want to die so if I know someone will respond with that type of revenge I will
avoid causing that. If Gandhi were alone in an alley and started being beat up
on, the morality may hold him from fighting back but that doesn't make the
risk of dying any lower.

~~~
mcantor
I agree that morality and mortal danger have no correlation. I haven't been
trying to argue that, though--if there's someplace where it seems like I was,
please point it out so I can clarify.

In your first paragraph, are you saying that a Buddha/Jesus/Gandhi is only a
pacifist because he expects lesser Buddhists/Christians to defend him with
violence...?

Also, I doubt that Gandhi or Thich Nhat Hanh would claim that their morality
decreased their risk of dying. Their point is that it doesn't change anything
(for them).

------
castis
In my findings, this method is not near as effective as having something you
said get taken way out of context.

I got bullied a little in middle school. However, in a completely unrelated
event, I said something with one feeling and someone nearby thought I said it
in anger I guess.

Next thing I know, SWAT and local police are at my high school and somehow
everyone knows who they're looking for.

Apparently "Really? OMG Im gonna kill her! lol" directly translates to "I'm
going to bring a gun to school and murder her".

I was never messed with again and no one asked.

------
lmkg
My only problem with this article is when the author considers the antagonists
to be animals. It encourages thinking of the bullies as sub-human, and beyond
redemption, and treating them like that encourages them to keep acting like
that. People are complicated, life is complicated, and completely dismissing
someone as an "animal" and ignoring anything else about them is an arrogant
effort to make yourself feel morally superior for taking what is an
essentially pragmatic option.

Like I said, that's the only issue I have, and I condone the advice to fight
back. I do think that bullies, or at least some individuals who are bullies,
have the potential to be talked to. However, I think it's unlikely that they
can be talked to by the person they're antagonizing, while they're in the
process of antagonizing them. If you're being picked on, you have neither the
responsibility, nor the ability, to redeem your tormentor. Concern yourself
with your well-being, defend yourself, and leave the redemption to a
professional counselor. No one has the obligation to act in the interest of
someone who is acting against theirs (although I have deep respect for those
who volunteer to do so).

The difference between fighting back as a deterrent, and fighting back as
moral superiority, is rather fine, and in the moment of fighting back,
probably indistinguishable. But there are downstream effects of thinking of
others (and especially of treating them) as less than human, or even as
inferior to you. Thinking that the current situation will never change blinds
you to ways to change it, and in the long-term, that results in things failing
to change.

------
ck2
But how do we teach kids when the "authority" puts their hands on them?

<http://www.boingboing.net/201011111141.jpg>

------
krsgoss
Does this advice help at all with girls? Girls seemed to bully socially rather
than physically when I was in school. What do you tell a young girl who's in a
similar situation? "Punch her in the nose?"

I had a similar experience (and resolution) in middle school and I agree with
the author's conclusion. But now I have an 8 month old daughter who may
experience this type of bullshit one day, and I'm not sure what advice I'd
give her just now.

~~~
bootload
_"... Does this advice help at all with girls? Girls seemed to bully socially
rather than physically when I was in school. What do you tell a young girl
who's in a similar situation? "Punch her in the nose?" ..."_

The asymmetry of this situation is not described much here because the type of
bullying attacks used by females are less physical. The mechanics are similar
but the techniques are different and can be summarised thus: _"Males are
paratroopers, females are secret agents"_. Males rely more on aggression and
physicality and are overt while females specailise in covert relational and
psychological bullying. If you want to read the mechanics & some citations try
here ~ <http://seldomlogical.com/2010/06/18/hacking-people>

The best article I've read on bulling is _"Big Bad Bully"_ ~
<http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200910/big-bad-bully> and the best
references specifically for dealing with female bullying I've seen is by
_"Rosalind Wiseman"_ ~ [http://www.amazon.com/Rosalind-
Wiseman/e/B001IOH8ZW/ref=sr_n...](http://www.amazon.com/Rosalind-
Wiseman/e/B001IOH8ZW/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_3?qid=1289548573&sr=1-3)

------
pinaceae
I agree and can confirm the effectiveness of this approach. My dad saw me
being bullied in kindergarten. Rather than stopping the bullying himself, he
taught me how to do a choke-hold.

The next day he had to pick me up earlier as I was accused of violent behavior
- for choking the bully until he turned blue.

This lesson, learned so early, helped me a lot in later school life as I was
that overweight small kid with thick glasses. And every time someone tried to
bully me, I simply slammed my elbow in their nuts.

Kids can be mean monsters, they can be worse than any grown up. They have no
idea how much harm they are causing.

Defending yourself against predators is a very important lesson in life.

------
dkl
I moved around a lot as a kid, so I was the convenient target, too. My 10 yr
old is in martial arts and has a green-brown belt. He absolutely loves it.
I've told him to only use it as a last resort, but to use it.

I recall being bullied by a rather dull kid when in elementary school. I
remember him relentlessly telling me he would kick my ass. I told my Dad and
he recommended that if it push came to shove, to just punch him in the face.
So, one day the kid came at me and I hit him (don't even remember where). I
was never bothered again at that school.

Bullies reign when no one stands up to them.

~~~
sofal
I really don't want to sound like some drive by detractor on the Internet, so
let me explain where I'm coming from.

I was that 10 year old kid. I had a junior black belt in karate at around 12
years old. My dad really kind of enjoyed it vicariously and was proud of my
accomplishments. He also, like you, believed that I had attained some skills
that could be used for real self defense. He told me that it should be used
only as a last resort, as if it were a secret weapon. The fact is, it was
nothing of the sort. I could never handle myself in a fight, and I never had
the confidence that I could, either.

There are many martial arts dojos out there that sell exactly what kung fu
movies sell: fantasy. These are the dojos that every kind of kid goes to and
they all just love love love it, and their parents just think it's so great
and fun. These are the dojos where you will see people lined up in rows to
repeatedly kick and punch and block the air while yelling "kyah!" or something
to that effect. Sometimes they'll kick and punch pads that instructors are
holding, and sometimes they'll be paired off to "spar" really lightly with one
another, where the mere soft contact of a gloved hand on the chest represents
a hit. Memorization of fight/dance moves is a major part of progressing from
each belt. The one thing that these dojos will _not_ do is have your son or
daughter fight anybody.

The simple fact is that you cannot learn to fight without fighting. Punching
the air or a pad does not prepare you physically, emotionally, or mentally for
punching a person. Totally dominating imaginary attackers in an elaborate
dance may have something to do with arts, but absolutely nothing to do with
martial. Not even a false sense of confidence is given to these kids, because
when faced with a real threat, they know very well that they're not prepared.
The false sense of confidence is sold to the parents.

It certainly doesn't hurt to take your kid to a dojo like this, because at
least they have fun and get a decent workout. But the real reason I wanted to
go as a kid was to learn how to fight, and my dad thought that was exactly
what I was learning, and it ultimately proved to be a great disappointment
because of these mismatched expectations.

I don't know what kind of dojo you take your kid to, but the advice from this
random guy on the Internet is to make sure your expectations are being
matched. A fun workout with a group of peers is good for a kid, but if you
(and him) really want to develop fighting skills, I strongly recommend trying
something like wrestling or Jiu-Jitsu. It needs to be a place where the kids
are pitted against each other in a well-controlled environment, where the goal
is to physically overpower your opponent.

~~~
ninjageek
You're right that many martial arts teachers/schools are like this. But there
are some that aren't. I've taken had the good fortune to learn from three or
four instructors, and there is no doubt in my mind that every one of them has
a very high level of skill and is able to apply that skill in real-world
situations. The problem is how to find these people and distinguish them from
the fakes.

------
zaidf
I was bullied quite a bit when I started 1st grade at a new school. Luckily I
had two older brothers at the school. A couple times I pointed out the dudes
responsible and they would go have a word with them and that'd take care of
it.

I guess you get bullied when the other party things they have little to lose
and lots(of pleasure) to gain. Soon as you signal they might have something to
lose and they believe you they move on to the next victim.

A few times I remember just cursing out the bullies OUT LOUD. I was considered
so weak that they never thought I'd do that. Once I did, the bullying stopped.

------
blhack
Maybe my experience with high school bulles is atypical. I went to a _very_
small high school (my graduating class had 32 people in it), and I was also a
_big_ kid. I was (and am) 6'4", I played tennis constantly. Despite being in
_alright_ shape, I was definitely a "fat" kid, definitely a nerd, and I
definitely took a lot of flak for it.

Until I stopped taking flak for it. Bullies are just trolls in real life.
Letting them make you feel dejected (or showing it) just feeds them...it's
just like internet trolls.

 _Responding_ back to them, not violently, but trolling them back meant that
you were no longer a victim, but were just playing the same game. Eventually,
I made friends with the kids that used to tease me.

I _really_ don't think that responding violently to bullies is the answer.
That just further serves to enforce an "us" and "them" mentality. Bullying
them back, just playing their game back at them makes it into a game.
Eventually, at least for me, bullying turned into friendly jabbings.

------
marcamillion
Just to re-iterate many of the above comments. When I was in 7th grade (in
Jamaica you are about 11 in 7th grade), I was perpetually bullied by one guy.
Another 7th grader, but because I came from a middle class upbringing and he
from lesser means, perhaps he felt a need to exude a 'gangster' image.

Given that I was one of the smallest guys in the class, that naturally meant I
became a target.

At first I would try to ignore it, but it never went away.

Well, one day I decided I wasn't going to take it and I fought back. I hit him
a few times and we rumbled together and I ended up having him in a 'sleeper
hold' - i.e. my arm around & in front of his neck, with my other arm locked
around the back of his head - with him fading quickly.

In a fit of desperation he quickly pulled out a compass (the one that had a
1-inch long point) and stabbed me in my arm - to get me to let go. Well, it
worked, I let go instantly.

The pain was intense - but he was able to get his breath back. As soon as we
both realized what he did, I turned to walk to the bathroom (because it had
started bleeding by now), but he thought I was going to the principal's
office. Naturally he ran after me apologizing profusely and literally BEGGED
me not to go to the principal.

I bluffed a bit, and indicated to him that if he ever troubled me again I am
going straight there.

That was the end of that...for the rest of my high school career he never
troubled me again. As a matter of fact, if he ever saw anyone else try picking
on me, he would kinda take up for me.

So while I wouldn't say 'take something hard and knock them in the back of
their head' but simply fighting back and standing up for yourself can help
significantly.

Although, a word of caution, I could have easily been stabbed elsewhere (like
my eye, or head). So take that for what it's worth and advise your kids of the
real potential consequences of fighting back - not to mention further
retribution by the bully's friends (which is a very real possibility here in
Jamaica).

That being said, I am definitely going to advise my son to hit back - but do
it wisely and make sure not to do TOO much damage. i.e. once they back off,
stop, leave, and report it (or not, as my case proved) or call me to at least
let me know there was an issue.

Edit: Oh and for the record, the wound took about 2 months to heal properly
and hurt like a mother-lover, for what it's worth.

------
msg
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I
tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right
cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and
take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one
mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn
away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

Reading this thread, it occurs to me once again how countercultural the Sermon
on the Mount is, and how hard it is to seriously live it.

I wouldn't recommend this as a plan of action for somebody else's kid. Or for
others, in a pluralist political context. Or for nations. Because hey, this
goes down to a very basic belief about how to live rightly and wrongly in the
world, and how to respond to violence and evil.

~~~
MoreMoschops
"Reading this thread, it occurs to me once again how countercultural the
Sermon on the Mount is, and how hard it is to seriously live it."

On the other hand, the reward (if you believe it) is eternal paradise of some
kind. Infinite good in exchange for some finite pain. Yay religion.

~~~
msg
You speak like someone who doesn't understand Christianity from the inside.
Knowing God is its own reward. The Christian life is not a video game. Heaven
is not an Achievement. Suffering is not inconsequential.

~~~
jmtulloss
I really appreciate this reply, but I do think that the sermon on the mount
stands on its own, without religion being involved. There are situations in
which being the better man means stepping aside.

------
swombat
Seems like Ender's Game 101. Thoroughly agree, and wish I'd had the balls to
carry it through when I was bullied as a kid.

My dad gave me this very advice at the time, but I was too cowardly to follow
it...

~~~
sofal
How many of us who got picked on would have had the guts to follow this advice
anyway? I don't think that many of these kids have anything that they are
holding back for lack of better advice, as if they can calmly choose their
reaction when the time comes. How do you get rid of paralyzing fear?

~~~
thomasz
Shouting helps.

------
nadam
Good advice generally. Although there are rare very serious cases when even
this does not help. There was a mentally ill guy in our primary school who was
strong, wild and agressive like an animal. (He has done weight training every
day being 11 years old!) He had no respect of his own life, so if someone
fought back he would fight until really dangerous levels. The older the guys
are the more dangerous this whole thing can get. In an extreme situation the
best thing someone can do is to tell everything their parents. The serious
bully in our school was first 'met' by the father of a bullied girl and later
were fired from the school.

------
cb33
As someone who used to be somewhat of a bully, I think this is the best
advice. Bullies pick on smaller kids because they're insecure about themselves
and bullying a smaller kid is... well, easy. If a smaller kid makes it
difficult for bullies to pick on them (by fighting back), the bully will most
likely stop (and move on to another victim).

~~~
portman
You make a good point (and it takes guts to admit being a bully): the anti-
bullying strategy is to make the bully pick a different target.

You don't have to be "un-bullyable", you just have to be less bullyable than
the next guy.

However, I still believe it's possible to fight back in a non-physical manner.
My experience has always been that wit is sharper than fists, so I plan to
teach my kids to fight back with language, not punches.

~~~
cb33
Believe me, that will make most bullies even more angry. They'll feel more
insecure because now they're inferior to the "shrimp" in a way. It's just
adding fuel to the fire.

~~~
portman
It worked for me growing up.

I attended 8 schools between ages 12 and 18 (yes, more than one per year) and
was bullied throughout.

And that's why comparing parenting strategies is almost never fruitful --
nearly every decision a parent makes is deeply personal, made with very few
data points.

( By the way, if any parents here have NOT read Nurture Shock, buy it right
now. Pretty much the _only_ data-driven book on parenting there is.
<http://www.amazon.com/dp/0446504122> )

------
rapind
I was with you until the _fight dirty_ part. Often but not always bullying is
due to insecurity. While I will definitely recommend to my son to stick up for
himself and others he cares about (sorry but turn the other cheek is not my
thing) I would never tell him to fight dirty.

Win or lose, getting beat up is not the end of the world. Some people are
tougher and that's just the way it is. Winning a fight against a bully is not
nearly as important as showing the balls to fight even if you don't think you
stand a chance. It won't always produce good results one-off, but overall
it'll be worth it.

As for some of these comments advising trickery like showing strength,
staring, talking crap etc. Doesn't work. Once you've been in a few fights you
understand this. A lot of it's on a subconscious level and your body language
will make it obvious that you're trying to avoid a fight while pretending to
act mean. People sense that and it's the absolute quickest way to lose a few
teeth. So what if he's bigger and stronger? The quickest way to end a fight is
to hit hard and fast with an utter lack of fear. If you really are at a huge
disadvantage then yeah it won't go so well. But if that's the case you weren't
going to scare him off with intellectual techniques either.

~~~
Tichy
For me the reason to not fight dirty is also that it gives the enemy the
license to also fight dirty. When I was a kid, there was some unwritten honor
code to not punch each other in the balls. Or maybe not honor, just fear of
reciprocal actions. I think it made a lot of sense.

It all depends on the context of course. If somebody would try to do me
serious harm, of course I would kick his balls. If it is just about
domination, might not be such a good idea. Even more so with scarier stuff
(knives, hard objects) - this could become dangerous really fast.

------
mattmaroon
It does crack me up that people think being nice to a bully will work. They
realize that bullies act out of misery due to self esteem issues, but they
think one high school kid, who the bully sees as a helpless victim, saying
something like "I value you as a person" is going to turn around the bully's
self esteem.

Humans don't work that way. Years of ingrained low self worth take years of
effort to correct. Going Joe Pesci on one of them works in minutes.

------
armandososa
I agree with responding to physical abuse with violence. But hitting someone
for _verbal_ abuse seems nonsensical, dumb, and animalistic.

Growing up being a short, brown-skinned, fatty-snotty nerd gain me a lot of
verbal abuse, but I always was very good with wit and snark and more than
once, the abuser ended up crying.

Funny enough, this ability gave me enough respect that almost nobody ever
tried to physically abuse me.

------
mrr2
This is probably the soundest advice to dealing with bullying I have ever
seen. As a kid that has been to 7 different schools in 2 different countries
(and learned English in '99), I assure you "hugging it out" with the bully
will lead to you getting humiliated.

They do not respect loving them. They do not respect constructive dialogue.
Your peers will not respect you for trying to reach out to them. In fact they
will see you as a kiss-ass, or worse a "bitch" (sorry but that's the term).

I moved to the US in '02. Attended a great Catholic school for 8th grade. Was
accepted despite the funny accent and funny name. Went to high school and had
a miserable 1st month of school thanks to a group of jackasses. One of them
had the gall to touch me after which I took a lunch tray to a kids face. God
my butt handed to me but guess what? No more bullying. Hell I got elected to
the student council, dated some great girls, and had a great high school
experience.

Stand up for yourself. It might hurt but you will get respect. Kids/teens are
animals. No need to go cerebral on them.

------
a_m_kelly
If you find yourself to be interested in this sort of thing more broadly, in
the justification of violence or it's utility, I recommend William T.
Vollmann's exhaustive, intricate attempt to establish a framework for
understanding the motivations, morals, and ethics of violence in his work
Rising Up and Rising Down: Some thoughts on Violence, Freedom & Urgent Means.

To give some idea of what the text is like, here's a little bit of it from a
section called "Where Do My Rights End?":

    
    
       Justified Choices of the Self:
       1. Whether or not to violently defend itself against violence; 
       2. Whether or not to violently defend someone else from violence.
       3. Whether or not to destroy itself.
       4. Whether or not to help a weaker self destroy itself, to  save it from a worse fate.
    
       Conditions: 
       1. No attachment to nonviolent creeds. 
       2. No attachment to collectivity or authority which might prohibit the self from removing itself from "the line of fire"
       Caveat to (1) and (2): So-called involunrtary attachments are not binding..." (pg 81-82. Abbr. Edition)
    
       ...

The abridged edition from which I quote above is over 700 pages and includes
case studies and narratives of people, nations or groups acting a certain way,
which Vollmann slotting them into his "Moral Calculus," I haven't had a chance
to finish it yet but I remain interested in the elaborate thought experiment
that is the book and the vividness of the historical anecdotes it contains.

Vollmann would fully support responding to violence in kind, there's a long
section on non-violent movements and their utter hopelessness in the face of
regimes unwilling (like bullies) to tolerate any dissent.

[The classic example of this is perhaps Harry Turteldove's story "The Last
Article," which proposes Ghandi campaigning in a Nazi occupied India and ends
just as you would expect it to.]

------
ern
When I was in high school, I was hassled a lot by a bully, who enjoyed showing
off to the (largely female) class by bullying me. He also had the nasty habit
of grabbing and crushing the testicles of other boys when cornered.

One particularly bad day, after school, I went home, got a baseball bat (and
ball, in case I was stopped by cops). Took a sidekick, went back to school,
and looked for the bully. He ran back onto school grounds (I wasn't going to
risk a suspension by going into school with a weapon), but I made sure that a
few people in class knew I was looking for him. When I went into school the
next day I got a grovelling apology from him, and was never bullied again. I
was surprised by how well it worked.

Looking back more than a decade, I cannot believe how incredibly foolish I
was, but it convinced me that bullies are most effectively stopped by the most
primitive means.

------
bg4
There was a mean, mean guy in my high school who endlessly bullied my sister
and I (and many others). If I had thrown a punch at him, he would of beat me
within an inch of my life.

Years later I found out from a childhood friend that he was beaten regularly
by his drunk of a father. He ended up himself in prison for repeat drunk
driving/vehicular manslaughter

Early on, I definitely felt a sense of schadenfreude at this news (him being
in prison). As the years went on though, and having reaped the benefits of my
circumstance for an good education, career, wife and a family, I can't help
but reflect somewhat on his life and his circumstance.

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.

------
WalterBright
It's essentially the tit-for-tat response, which turns out to be a very
effective strategy for all sorts of things, not just bullies.

------
dnautics
Four words:

Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma; Retaliating.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_dilemma#The_iterated_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_dilemma#The_iterated_prisoner.27s_dilemma)

------
sliverstorm
I have never quite figured out how I'd teach my kid this. I never had to deal
with violent bullies myself (even though I was totally a geek, I kind of made
friends with skaters and druggies etc, and I later heard a lot of them
respected me) so I have no life-experience with fighting back.

Only time things ever came to blows, the other guy (who struck first) was 8-10
years older than me, muscular and a good 2-3 feet taller, and that is a fight
you do NOT fight.

~~~
gte910h
Fighting with other kids you're locked into primary school with is vastly
different than doing so as an adult.

Fighting as an adult is pretty stupid and a good way to get a felony record.

~~~
sliverstorm
Of course. If you're referring to my second line of text, I was ~12 and the
other guy was ~20.

------
andrewl
I agree with the author. In the meantime, the authorities _should_ be doing
something about the bullying themselves. Here's an interesting article about
an unusual bullying-reduction program:

[http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/08/fighting-
bul...](http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/08/fighting-bullying-
with-babies/)

And if it works, that's great, and I'm all for it. But while we're waiting, I
agree with the author's post.

------
oemera
Wow I'm really shocked that this story is getting so much credits.

First of all I'm 22 and not living US so I can only talk about growing up in
Germany but there is one thing I learned growing up in Germany: Fist fighting
is not a solution. I never used my fists in my entire live (!!) to beat
someone cause I don't think it could change a situation into a better
situation.

I think we can all talk. Saying that it is what works because of our "animal
nature" it's plane wrong. We would never live in this democratic world if
everyone would use their fists to make things right.

Also it is really URGENT to tell kids that this is not a solution cause this
will never be a solution while getting older and sometime a job. At work it
will not help you to beat someone if he/she is bullying around with you. You
will lost your job if you do so.

So please stop telling your kids a solution which only COULD (I don't think it
works though) work in school. Worst thing what can happen is that your kids
will try to solve every problem with a solution father told him/her.

Last but not least I know very well how hard school can be for kids but
developing a good personality needs downs and ups. We are all "nerds" and I
think we know hard times really well.

Thank you for listening.

------
pmichaud
Although this particular experience wasn't physical in nature, I wrote an
essay recently that argues the opposite:
<http://www.petermichaud.com/essays/your-inner-monster/>

But I have to say, in an acutely dangerous situation, the right thing to do is
physically defend yourself. Then you can love the person, if they are still
alive.

------
ryanelkins
I agree with this as it pertains to kids in school. I wish I better knew how
to defend myself as a gangly teenager. I fully plan on making sure my son know
knows how to defend himself and when it is appropriate to do so.

However, the author goes on to describe attacking people trying to mug him -
that's a bit foolhardy I think. Sure, it may work with some people who thought
they had an easy mark, others might pull out a knife and gut you. I'm not
saying you hug they guy and tell him how swell he is - but for the sake of
yourself and anyone that might be with you - just give them your wallet or car
or whatever it is. Now if you feel they are going to put you in a situation
where you won't be able to defend yourself (they want to cuff you, tie you up,
etc) - now you have an argument for going on the offensive.

------
utefan001
My son is 8 and had to deal with some minor bullying in 2nd grade. The best
thing we ever did was sign our son up for tackle football at the end of 2nd
grade.

Now, when needed (so far only in football) he knows how to hit, get hit and
not fear it.

------
TallGuyShort
This guy is right on. I have a brother who is very reserved and quiet, and
would be the last person you would expect to get in a fight. He and I were
both bullied when we were little, and he had this one guy that would never
give him a break. One day it went too far and my brother decided to involve a
cricket bat. Teachers came and broke up the fight, they both got taken to the
principals office, etc... My brother was willing to apologize, but of course
the bully just kept being a dick in front of the principal. Brother? Got off
the hook. Bully? Suspended - never bothered him again.

------
biafra
I remember having two fights in my entire school time. One in elementary
school and one in secondary school. Both were about what I would let others do
to me. After both fights I never had to fight again in that school. I don't
even remember if I had "won" or "lost".

My parents let me do Judo and Ice Hockey at that time. I wasn't very strong or
big but I learned some things in Judo class. Mostly how to fall and how bring
someone down. I never liked fighting for my belts so I stopped doing Judo
after a couple of years with the blue belt.

I intend to give my son the opportunity to learn some martial arts too.

------
radu_floricica
This is all so terribly foreign to me... almost nothing I read here makes
sense. In the Romania I grew up in if you had serious trouble with other kids
you just talked to the teachers or your parents, and they'd solve the problem.
Worst case would be a parent to parent chat.

I think I was under 10 when I upset a girl who lived next door. Don't remember
really what I did, but I sure as hell remember her father chasing me three
blocks, only to tell me very gently that it wasn't nice and he'll have to talk
to my parents if I did it again.

------
paolomaffei
This can also apply to the business world: As soon as some other company tries
to damage you in an unfair way you are supposed to fight.

But like for kids, the other guy can be just too big for you to fight back.

~~~
dcbell
Ah, but it _doesn't_ apply to the business world, that's the thing. What makes
school bullying viable is that nothing you do matters---the effect of
everything you do is delayed twelve years. Everyone progresses at the same
rate through the institution, in spite of high or low performance. So if no
one's going to outrace you (and even if they did, it would only be
academically, which no one cares about it in k-12), there's no real penalty
for becoming some poor kid's private nightmare.

Not so much in the business world (and especially tech); while you're busy
engaging in a dogfight with Joe Competitor, some third company is kicking your
trash by spending money on R&D rather than winning a marketing/feature war. So
it generally makes sense to avoid direct confrontation, because it slows you
down.

------
chrischen
Why do we encourage more violence when we can just get schools to tolerate
bullying less, and then encourage kids to report the bullying. I mean if
they're shoving food in your mouth and throwing things at you they should be
expelled.

Sure you should defend yourself if someone is physically about to harm you but
I think most kids being bullied _don't_ do this because they are
weaker/outnumbered and it's just going to anger the bullies more. The smart
thing to do is to report them because the system shouldn't tolerate them.

------
holychiz
Good advice for my kids. I've had similar experiences, since I lived in many
different places and at each place, I had to go through it again. After
awhile, I started to do it pre-emptively by scoping out the assholes and wait
for them to say anything even remotely provocative then I pounced. Since I'm
smaller and weaker, I can't say I win even half the time, but they leave me
alone 100% of the time after the fights. Some even become my friends.

Don't underestimate the element of surprise! Hit first, hit hard, son! :)

------
maxklein
You don't end a fight by starting a fight. It works in theory, but it just
causes a culture of violence.

People who are bullied are bullied because of they way they are perceived by
others. You notice how there are a lot of neutral people who nobody bullies?

There are the bullies on one extreme, then there are a lot of neutrals, then
there are the bullied on the other extreme. Asking a person who is bullied to
hit someone is not solving the problem at all, it is actually contributing to
the 'weirdness' factor that made that person bullied in the first place. The
people who are bullied are not bullied just because they look physically weak,
but because they are giving off the wrong social vibe. Doing something like
hitting someone is not addressing the real issue.

To stop a child from being bullied, you need to address the short term
problem, and you need to adress the long term problem. The short term problem
is that the people need to stop, and the long term problem is that he needs to
gain a lot of confidence and properly learn how to integrate himself in a
social situation. He needs to learn to assert himself, and not be weak.

The short term solution can be solved without violence. If a person is
bullying you, and you just say nothing, just scowl and lean towards the person
with your arms swinging free, look straight into the eyes of the people
without blinking, speak in a low cold voice, then walk away without looking
back you can almost always stop further aggravation. Most bullied people make
the mistake of smiling and trying to laugh off the problem, then going into a
body posture that says they are defensive, and hopping from foot to foot or
fiddling with clothes, and looking down. This encourages the bullies, because
you are displaying beta-male behaviour.

The long term solution involves forcing the child into a lot of social
activities, so that he learns how to establish and build social hierachies.
Also, a lot of physical activity, particular where he can get to dominate, and
also team sports where he is working with people less competent than him will
also help teach him to assert himself.

Saying somethin like "punch the person" is not only not very clever, it's also
practically undoable for most bullied people. Most bullied kids are small
wimpy and non-assertive kids. They can't punch anyone. Don't give this
pointless advice.

~~~
philwelch
I was a bullied kid.

In middle school, teaching me to be less weird would have been pretty
difficult. Teaching me to hit back--well, I didn't even have to be taught.
Turned out hitting back stopped the bullying, and growing up stopped the
weirdness (at least, I think it did).

Your advice is probably good for kids who are just unpopular and weird. Once
the line is crossed into violence, though, it's a different class of problem.
There are only two responses to violence: involve the authorities, or if the
authorities aren't present or don't care, hit back. The situation in that
respect is more like prison than like coaching a weird kid in social skills.

Culture of violence? That already exists as soon as kids are getting bullied.
A culture of violence is only solved when adults in authority care enough to
become involved. People don't physically bully each other at work because if
you did, the police would take you to jail. People do physically bully each
other in school and in prison because in both cases, the authorities don't
care.

------
othello
Funny that the standard response is to fight back the bullying kids. Another
possible reaction is to outsmart them.

Just make fun of them. Make them the laughing stock of the whole class. Bully
them verbally. Make fun of them and suddenly you'll become more popular -
which will likely insulate you from any further bullying.

Maybe I was lucky, but this strategy worked wonders for me back in the days.

I'm sincerly surprised that a community as educated as HN only suggests brute
force as an effective response to school bullying.

~~~
pjscott
That's easy to say, but very hard for socially awkward bullied kids to
actually implement. If you could even _think_ about making a bully "the
laughing stock of the whole class", then you were exceptional among victims.

------
Figs
Given current events, I'm surprised this wasn't about the TSA.

------
gabea
This is an excellent article. I was bullied when I was in highschool and guess
what? I fought back and they backed down. It not only made me overcome the
bullies, but it gave me greater confidence in my adult years to not take crap
from anyone.

Additionally people rarely change so those bullies you faced back in your
childhood are sitting around you at your place of work as well. Do not let
them have the time of day, and do not give in to them, fight back.

------
ScottBurson
The "love the bully" approach actually worked for me on one occasion. But you
know, if it hadn't worked, I wouldn't feel bad about slugging him back.

------
postfuturist
If you really want to fight back, fight smart and fight dirty, call the police
immediately after anything illegal (violence and threats of violence are
illegal). File a report with the police after they arrive, photograph any
bruises, etc. Upon repeat or grievous offenses, file appropriate lawsuits
against the school and parents of bully. Yeah, it's lame, but not as lame as
fighting fire with fire.

------
chrisclark1729
Statistically speaking, I would say this is not bad advice.

My guess is that less than 5% of bullies are prepared to actually fight.
Therefore, even if you are setting your kid up for a beating it's only likely
to happen with 4% or so of bullies. I would say this lean risk is far
preferable to the daily torment that comes along with consistent bullying.

Just a different take on it. Comments have been good otherwise.

------
jchonphoenix
Agreed.

Bullies are animals. The only thing they respond to is something so simple
that they can understand it.

If you try to explain that society expects more of them and they are
disappointing society by not being a contributing member, you will fail
because they are too dense to understand.

They do, however, understand violence. And if they cross the line, don't
hesitate. Fight back. Otherwise you risk being branded an easy target.

------
kapilkaisare
Reminds me, oddly enough, of one of the early sequences in Ender's Game. Ender
beats a guy to mush, so that it will never happen again.

~~~
jotr99
Ender killed that kid.

~~~
iwr
Ender was deliberately put in a position where he was forced to fight back or
get killed. His "handlers" wanted a dehumanized person capable of everything,
including genocide.

"The task of the training battalions is to crush and completely destroy the
individual, however strong a character he may have possessed, and to fashion
out of that person a type to fit the standards of spetsnaz, a type who will be
filled with an explosive charge of hatred and spite and a craving for
revenge." Source: <http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov6/index.html>

It's a book by Viktor Suvorov "Spetsnaz. The Story Behind the Soviet SAS". A
quick and interesting read.

Violence and degradation is a common method of training soldiers. Some (not
me) would say the school system is deliberately set in this fashion.

------
bhoung
It's a fine line really, knowing when to fight back, retort or walk away. If
you never teach/encourage your son how to hold their own, then you are doing
them a disfavor. Probably the caveat I would throw in is that the older your
child is, the higher the stakes are (in physical terms), and the more likely
something very ugly will result.

------
alexandros
This article is the seventh result on Google for "make violence on" (quotes
included). Can a native speaker comment on this use?

It sounds odd/interesting to me and given that the rest of the article is well
written, this puzzles me quite a bit. I normally associate such uses of 'make'
with native speakers of Arabic, which obviously doesn't apply.

~~~
dstone
As a native english speaker, I paused when I saw that construct too. Looking
at the google results, these are examples of the way I would expect those
words to be put together:

* "Video games could make violence on the whole seem more 'okay.'"

* "Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has promised to make violence on the basis of sexual orientation a priority for her office."

The only google result that seems similar to the original article is from
asianoutlook.com:

"You can make violence on weeds, ideas, and terror, but not war."

In that sense, it's closer to the phrase "make war on", which is much more
common. Without knowing any asian languages, I would assume that they use war
and violence somewhat interchangeably, which would explain the odd phrasing.

------
pshapiro
It isn't real love to "talk it out" with them anyway. If it doesn't bless them
and yourself it's not love anyway.

Things as they actually are is the only way that they are in truth.

So the teaching that it's loving them is what's false -- not that love itself
couldn't help. In this case, it was a kind of love of oneself to fight back
and protect oneself.

------
pilif
Back in my school days, I was the constant victim of bullying (probably like
many hoer geeks). I wasn't strong enough to hit back, and I also just could
not get myself to hurt anybody. I still can't.

And even when looking back at what has happened (trust me, the stories of this
and the article this one links to are _nothing_ ), I pride myself on not
falling back to the ways of a savage animal.

I feel that it's deeply wrong to hurt anybody. How are you better than the
bullies once you begin to hurt others?

How do you make sure you don't cross the boundary between self-defense and
being a bully yourself? Even though it might feel good. Do you really want to
be what you hate?

School is hard, but once you get to know people who respect you and take you
for what you are (a nerd in my case), things get better and you will even feel
pride for what you are instead of constantly hating yourself.

Take comfort in the fact that you lived up to your ideals of humanity and be
proud of what you have become. Use the brain you got for good instead of
shutting it off for revenges sake. Be human.

------
joelbm24
i agree with what he is saying. I don't believe in picking fights. I do
believe in standing up for your self and others. If they say that they are
gonna punch you call them on it ask them to punch you. The whole reason why
they do it is because ppl turn around and walk away. i am 16 right now and
have been training in various martial arts since i was 7 and i still get
bullied, the difference is that i don't hesitate to fight. I also get angry
when i see a bigger kid picking on smaller kids. When i see that i go and
rough the bigger kid up a bit. From doing this i have seen a huge difference
in the bullies at my school. on the note i do recommend going to the teacher
first, but if that doesn't work then your on your own

------
chrisbennet
As my father told me, avoid the situation if you can but if you can't, the way
to deal with the bully is to "Take the profit out of it."

You simply have to make yourself an uninviting target.

A rare trip the priciple's office is a fair price to pay for multiple years of
freedom from bullying.

------
dmn
I couldn't agree more with this article. My father was old school and told me
to do whatever I needed to do (to not be bullied). Stand up for yourself and
you gain respect for yourself and from others. (and it most likely wont happen
again)

------
axod
Whatever happened to 'just ignore them'. Personally, I think that's always the
best policy (Unless you're in imminent danger).

Also can work well in business. If someone is being a pain, just ignore them
and don't give them the publicity they're seeking.

~~~
JabavuAdams
It's terrible, terrible advice, because it doesn't work with physical
violence. I've talked to multiple people who tried this and were bullied
mercilessly in response.

Kids (of a certain age) don't know when to stop. They naturally try to
establish a pecking order, and woe to whoever's at the bottom.

Note that I'm not saying you should go punch someone who verbally insults you.
I'm specifically talking about responding to violence.

~~~
axod
I'm in the UK so it's probably quite different. I don't think as a nation
we're anywhere near as confrontational, not to mention guns millitary etc

For me, it worked fine. (As well as obviously telling teachers and getting
them involved if needed).

I absolutely detest parents who tell their kids "If someone hits you, hit them
back harder"

~~~
JabavuAdams
I assume you're talking about the US? I'm Canadian. The UK seems to have a lot
more street violence and hooliganism than we have here.

~~~
axod
In the big cities, possibly.

------
known
I think parents should be counseled when children are involved bullying.

------
zan_shikai
Bullying doesnt stop when school ends. There are bullies everywhere you look,
in your office, on the roads. If you learn to run away in school you will
never learn to stand up for yourself

------
icegreentea
We had a discussion on another blog post regarding this book a month ago or
something.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1764236>

------
ilitirit
I was only bullied once in school. I retaliated, give him a busted lip (he
beat me harder, though), and noone messed with me after that again.

------
known
Children should be taught <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha>

------
jmtulloss
Why are there no bullies responding to this thread? Is HN really so one-sided
that nobody that was a bully hangs around here?

------
elblanco
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1765749>

------
chrisaycock
Michael Lewis had a line in "Liars Poker" about dealing with asshole traders:
lift weights and take karate.

------
zephjc
And never forget the old Klingon proverb: Revenge is a dish best served cold

------
brockf
I guess they believed this too? Or maybe not until too late?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre>

------
anigbrowl
This is wrong.

 _But son, as soon as someone puts their hands on you, they’ve crossed a line.
Fuck them up. It’s the only thing these vicious freaks understand. They’re
wild animals. They make violence on you, you need to show them that you’re the
stronger, bigger animal. When someone attacks you maliciously for no reason,
you need to impose your will on them._

All unwelcome contact is considered to be enemy contact, and nuclear
retaliation is offered as the solution.

And yet not all contact is roughhousing, not all roughhousing is bullying, and
not all bullying justifies maximum retaliation. Of course, implicit in this
advice is the ability to distinguish how offensive or aggressive an unwanted
contact actually is, and to measure one's response appropriately...exactly the
sort of thing kids (usually) learn by experience, but (frequently) miss when
receiving knowledge transmissions from a trusted moral authority.

This is not an argument for pacifism or passivity: I am well aware that not
all aggressive people secretly want to be loved or are just having difficulty
making polite conversation. I was a small child and remain a fairly small
adult; I've been bullied (in school) and attacked by various street criminals
(as an adult) - more than most people, I'd guess. I dislike fights and haven't
started one since age 8 or so, but I will finish one if it is forced upon me,
and also enjoy non-competitive martial arts (ie fighting with other students
for enjoyment of skill rather than pursuit of belts).

Going all-out in response to attack is a poor strategy, rooted in fear rather
than confidence. It may not be appropriate in the first place; indeed, bullies
and criminals frequently exhibit a victim mentality and complain that the
target of their aggression 'made them do it.' Overlooking this factor assures
that sooner or later a person will end up wondering how s/he ended up being
the bad gal/guy - if not for physical fighting, then in an employment or
domestic context. Secondly, it may not be necessary: the aim of self-defense
is to end the confrontation and deter future attacks, and most attacks are
experimental or opportunistic. Such opponents will quickly fold in face of
equivalent resistance, and often when confronted with far less (eg a push in
response to a punch). Violently revenging your hurt feelings, rather than
merely defending your hurt person, forces your attacker into defending
themselves with an least an equivalent degree of fervor. You win by holding
your ground and seeing your opponent quit; to withholding this option is to
rob yourself of your own victory. No outcome that takes place under duress
yields certainty to the immediate beneficiary. Thirdly, if your attacker is
serious and dangerous, then going all-out can be quite dangerous. Such moves
are more apparent and less calculated, and an experienced opponent can
_easily_ exploit this to use your own strength against you.

Having been on both ends of this equation, I feel comfortable in saying that
the person who loses their temper will lose any resulting fight too. Conflicts
are mental problems, to which the physical aspects are often only a footnote.

~~~
nkurz
You're having the opposite reaction to this than I am. From my point of view,
he's not recommending a 'nuclear retaliation' at all. Instead, he's saying
that you have to play the same bullying 'game' in reverse. He urges you wait
for a provocation, and then to attack them with your fists, in public, and
suffer the quasi-legal consequences in return for the social standing it
provides.

I don't like this advice, because I don't want to ever be forced to play this
game. If you threaten my physical safety, I'm either going to ignore you and
move along, give in and go the police afterward, or I'm going to kill you. Not
figuratively; there is no game. I hope to never get to that point, but there
is no chance that I'd try to beat an aggressor with my fists fair-and-square.
Instead, I will ensure that they never threaten me again.

That's the nuclear option.

------
ilitirit
.

------
ahoyhere
You don't need to hit a bully to break his power.

The trick is to emasculate them. Show them you don't care. When they insult
you or hurt you, laugh at them. You just have to mean it.

I was bullied for years until I realized one day why they bullied me - I
smelled of fear, and I didn't react, I just stood there and looked at them.
Suddenly it all made sense, they were like braindead sharks to blood.

So I started smiling and laughing at them.

Took the wind right out of their sails, _and_ they weren't able to force me to
come down to their level.

I won.

Play their game and they still win on some level, because hurting another
person hurts yourself.

~~~
hasenj
What's all this talk about "their level"?

"Hurting someone hurts yourself", bullshit. Revenge is _sweet_. Defending
yourself is not a weakness or immoral, it's rather noble.

If you go with the "laugh at them" technique, they will still go around
bullying other kids.

But, stand up and fight them, and they learn a lesson that bullying has some
serious consequences. You also set an example to other bullies and other kids
being bullied.

~~~
ahoyhere
Unlike probably most people here on HN, I have done real violence to someone
else. Over and over, in fact. I had the cops called on me and I've had to live
with the consequences. And I don't mean legal consequences.

Beating up on other people kills you inside, slowly, because it shows you
_exactly_ what kind of person you are.

It doesn't matter if you're "standing up" to some other kid. Violence is
violence.

I'm not saying violence is never required, but if you're resorting to violence
when a smile and a chuckle will do, you're weak -- you don't have enough
willpower to control yourself, or brains to think up an alternative.

~~~
jerf
Yeah, and being bullied kills you inside too, only quickly and with much more
duration.

If I could go back and do it all again there'd be two or three more swung
fists. Probably no more than that, either, because that's all it would take.

In fact I think this debate would be really different if defending yourself
against being bullied actually required sustained violence, but instead rather
we're in a world where I can ask "How many people have killed themselves that
could have been saved by them instead swinging their fists once?" and get a
number probably at least in the thousands.

This isn't just a philosophy debating match; children are dying over this, and
a lot more are getting badly hurt.

~~~
ahoyhere
My mother used to beat me, until I was big enough to fight back, which I did.
Guess which hurt me more?

Her abuse of me doesn't weigh on me nearly as much as mine of her, because in
the latter _I had a choice_. So there you go.

~~~
jerf
We're not talking about parental or family abuse here. This is bullying, which
is not the same thing. Being less bad, it admits of different solutions.

------
dnsworks
In 9th grade I threw a bully down a set of stairs, then proceeded to beat him
with every bit of energy I had (not much, I was a fat kid). After he got out
of the hospital, in casts, he stayed far, far away from me. That was the last
time anybody tried bullying me. "God" isn't going to stop the bullies, a good
old fashioned ass kicking is.

------
jrockway
Yeah, good idea. If someone bullies you, just bring some guns and bombs to
school. The result is always positive.

------
MoreMoschops
The off-topic HN posts are getting silly. This isn't coding, or business, or
some kind of cool interesting hack. It's not even interesting and could be
summed up in a few words instead of a long, rambling .... ah, fuck it, HN is
over anyway.

