
A note on programmer salaries - pryelluw
http://stephaniehurlburt.com/blog/2016/12/7/a-note-on-programmer-salaries
======
kayoone
By looking at her Linkedin, it is easy to see what companies she is talking
about, some big names up there. I think her viewpoint is a bit naive though.
Of course a company will pay market rate in a european city if that is what it
takes to be competitive. The fact that they pay their US employees more might
create tensions inside the company but in the end is just down to the fact
that the market there is completely different and that is what it takes to be
competitive there.

In the beginning of my career i also had similar thoughts like "Why does the
company make so much money when i am doing all the work" but while running my
own business later i realized that it is not as simple. The company has a
whole lot of risk and work bringing in projects and keeping everything afloat,
as a programmer i did not have to worry about anything of that and only later
i realized how much value that has, especially in a region where programming
and consulting gigs weren't really easy to get.

Location really matters for programmer salaries. I went from a smaller
european city where all there was for programmers were small
software/marketing agencies to a european tech hub with a lot of startups and
a booming market. My salary doubled just by changing location and living costs
are still comparable and i finally feel i am getting paid what i am worth,
which is still far from US standards though.

~~~
Swinx43
Out of interest which European tech hub did you move to? Berlin? I am
currently looking at making a move and would love to hear some first hand
experience of the tech hubs in Europe that people have moved to.

~~~
kayoone
Yes Berlin, i make close to 70k which is decent here for senior devs without
management responsibility i guess and that amounts to ~3300 after taxes,
health insurance etc. I could save more by getting a private health insurance,
but that has its downsides too.

The main reason why this works is that Berlin is still really cheap compared
to London but even compared to Hamburg or Munich. Rents are getting up though,
still the amount of great food and entertainment for relatively cheap makes it
easy to live with that salary.

I read an article from Buffer where they equaled 60k in Berlin to about 120k
in SF or NY. I also think salaries in London are not substantially higher,
while the city is so much more expensive.

I am still looking to go contracting at some point to make more money to raise
a family, but for now while sharing an apartment with my girlfriend, it's
decent money. Most of Berlin's working population gets far lower wages anyway,
even in startups outside of development so for me as someone without an degree
(yet), it always feels weird to earn substantially more than people that have
a Masters in Business/Marketing.

~~~
zerr
The bad thing in Berlin is that 60-70K is really a ceiling, if you want to
stay in non-managerial engineering, and that amount is not something
unrealistic for engineers living in cheaper parts of the world working
remotely, so there is not much incentive to move to Berlin.

Btw, why do you find London much expensive? I mean, you can rent (or mortgage)
a decent apartment in the nice district for ~600 GBP per month. And the food,
goods, appliances, etc... is similar, or cheaper. And most importantly -
people speak English! :) The language factor was a revelation for me, after
spending some time on the mainland Europe.

~~~
mstade
No way you find a _nice_ place to live _in_ London for £600, especially not a
place of your own. If anything, you _might_ find a room somewhere, but it's
probably not going to be nice and it's likely not even going to be in London.

If you commute by long distance rail for at least an hour, an hour and a half
maybe, to some small town way outside of London maybe you'll find something at
that cost – but surely not in London proper.

My rents over the years in London where, per month, in order of when I lived
there:

\- apartment hotel studio in Limehouse: ~£2000-2500 \- room in shared flat in
Queensway: £1000 \- 1-bed in Canary Wharf: ~£1650 (moved after a year because
they wanted to back my rent by about 20%) \- studio in Angel: ~£1200 \-
basement studio in Highbury&Islington: ~£1350

The studio in Angel was unbelievably cheap for a brand new building in a nice
neighborhood. I was the first tenant. It had one of those beds you flip down
from the wall kind of thing. Sounds off putting but it was actually a really
smart feature, made the place feel like a 1-bed.

~~~
zerr
I'm talking more about Ilford, Barking, Wembley, etc...

~~~
Swinx43
Sorry but those are definitely not what counts as nice areas in London. I also
doubt you would find something for £600 in some of those areas today.

~~~
mstade
I too doubted this, but I suppose it is _possible_ , though the pickings are
slim at best:

[http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-
rent/map.html?locatio...](http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-
rent/map.html?locationIdentifier=REGION%5E87490&maxPrice=600&numberOfPropertiesPerPage=499&radius=10.0&propertyTypes=bungalow%2Cdetached%2Cflat%2Cpark-
home%2Csemi-
detached%2Cterraced&includeLetAgreed=false&viewType=MAP&dontShow=houseShare&letType=longTerm&viewport=-1.20263%2C0.774913%2C51.2122%2C51.8257)

Also note a lot of these would be likely £600+ since this doesn't show
additional fees (estate agent, taxes etc.)

Now, this may seem like an abundance of results – but a number of these
listings are actually house shares, parking lots, garages etc. Maybe you'd be
ok with sharing a house (I wouldn't) but I'm sure we can all agree living in
parking space is out of the question.

So maybe it's doable, but I think it'd be really hard work trying to find a
place that's not kept together with shoe string and duct tape, while being in
a decent area with a decent commute.

~~~
aries1980
Dirt-low rents on Zoopla and Rightmove are usually baits. Call up the agency
and ask them if you can see the flat. They will tell you something like “this
flat has gone, but I have something similar”. Finding a flat in London usually
takes a month.

------
sillysaurus3
I mean, it's pretty simple, but it took a long time to internalize: If you
don't have anyone else making you an offer, then you're worth that amount.

In this case, you were worth $42k and $56k respectively. If you'd shopped
around, you'd have been worth more. But you didn't, so you weren't.

That's not a bad thing, either. Security is nice, and interviews are a pain.
But it really is that simple.

If you don't like your current pay, don't bother with negotiating for a raise.
That's how you keep getting paid the same amount plus inflation. Go to the
market.

That feeling you're talking about -- where the company rakes in millions and
you're the reason why, yet you're paid table scraps -- it's because that's
what you're worth. There's no greed. The company is just that valuable, and no
one is making you a better offer, so that's how valuable you are.

There's not much sense in comparing notes or seeing how much everybody else is
making, except as a way to incentivize you to do something about it (leave).
If you like your security, then enjoy it. If you like your money, go talk to
companies.

EDIT: Time to bust out one of the best comments of all time:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2439478](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2439478)

 _Turns out he was a doormat in negotiating, though his salary history was
cringeworthy. It pained everyone to hear it, considering how nice of a guy he
was. In all honestly, $60K was a big step up for him. [...] He spent the next
day in non-stop meetings with HR, his manager and the CTO. That Friday he
simply handed in his badge without a word, walked out and never came back.
Until 3 months later. As a consultant. At $175 /hour._

(The most-popular comment list is interesting in general:
[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment)
Too bad when the scores were hidden, the list stopped working.)

~~~
taeric
While this is a simplistic view that might help you feel good about taking
advantage of someone, it is ridiculously easily abused. And, quite frankly,
scares me if I think about it for too long.

I don't want a society where there are people left behind simply because they
did not make a job out of making more money. Nor do I want a society where
services performed by folks leads to a massive wealth imbalance in workforces
that don't have people specifically tasked with keeping this from happening.
Especially with how anti union/similar setup current cultures are.

And to be clear, I realize that that ship has somewhat sailed. Nobody was
specifically tasked with making sure women/minorities were paid fairly. As a
result, we have an obvious problem. One where the incentives have aligned such
that many companies do not have an incentive to fix it. (There has to be a
term for the occurrence where virtue signaling is high, but actual virtue is
punished. Anyone know it?)

That is, you are absolutely right in many senses. But I worry that as long as
not all companies are paying more fair wages, than there is little incentive
to be the one company paying fair wages. (There are incentives to pay above
normal pay, but that can still be below fair. See again current women's pay
gap.)

So, can you reduce it down to folks are ultimately paid what they are worth.
And if they simply shopped themselves around they could get more, but they
didn't so they have accepted their low worth, so they are, ipso facto, worth
less. Great. I just think we have plenty of evidence that shows that doesn't
actually work.

~~~
chrisco255
No different than shopping for a car and buying the first one you see. You
HAVE to shop around for your career. Holy crap, it's the biggest investment of
your life. If you don't care, it's nobody's job to care for you, and it
shouldn't be. ALWAYS shop around or don't complain when you find out you're
being paid below market.

~~~
taeric
My main problem with this is it is victim blaming, at large. And again, leads
to situations such as women and minority pay being significantly lower for no
good reason.

At an individual level, it is good actionable advice. At a societal level, it
really is just victim blaming. And it is hard to day where the line is between
those views.

~~~
tengbretson
Failure to self-educate, negotiate or maximize your leverage does not in any
way make someone a victim.

What sick thought crept its way into our collective consciousness that has
made us glorify being a victim above all else. We have been fooled into
holding up literally the opposite of success as the highest virtue.

~~~
taeric
I haven't glorified being a victim. Quite the contrary. I just refuse to
glorify anything the exploits and relies on someone being a victim.

That is, my question is what sick thought made it acceptable to take
repression and holding down of full segments of a population under the guise
of them individually not standing up for themselves acceptable?

Seriously, the evidence is quite clear that this attitude is complete nonsense
and only works for people that have certain advantages already. I get that you
feel you have worked hard for your position. So have I. I also get that I was
additionally lucky that I was able to reap the rewards of my hard work. Many
aren't. And to be ok with that is a truly disgusting collective consciousness
problem.

~~~
micahbright
>Seriously, the evidence is quite clear that this attitude is complete
nonsense and only works for people that have certain advantages already.

Ahem... citation needed

~~~
taeric
I've been referencing the still existing pay gap between men and women. Same
for minorities.

For this attitude to be accurate, the problem is simply that women and
minorities are not educating themselves and/or are not "shopping themselves
around." If you want me to cite studies showing that specifically is false,
quite frankly I don't have time to dig around for that. You could find studies
showing it is true.

~~~
micahbright
The still existing pay gap for men and women, when women make 105% of what men
make for the same job title and experience?

You need to study more.

~~~
taeric
Sounds like you have a source. Because that is a rather bold claim.

------
ddosasaurus
Short story: I started out very hard on myself and pushed myself 24/7 to be
the best I can be. My first job was $65k/yr, raised to $75k/yr at the end of
the first year. I had a strong suspicion I was worth more, but I took a
strategic approach to finding out. A year later I took an offer at $140k/yr. A
year and a half later I accepted $195k/yr ($165k base + $30k bonus). In my
current state I'm stuck somewhere between wondering when this will end and yet
knowing very concretely the tremendous amount of value I create at
organizations (not just in engineering proper, but also team development,
leadership, best practices, biz/ops, etc.). I'm optimistic I'll be able to
keep this upward trajectory going, it just may not continue to be in the form
of salary.

~~~
bousaid
Go work for Microsoft or Amazon?

------
otto_ortega
Any advise on how to get a wage on the ranges mentioned on the article (or in
the comments) while living OUTSIDE the USA?

I live in Central America, but work for a Seattle based startup as a remote
contractor and make $32K.

Whenever I read about "common" salaries for programmers in the US an internal
conflict unleashes on me.

On one side what I make is on the middle-high range when compared to the local
market, but it seems it is low when compared to US salaries.

I often wonder if I'm fooling myself and the guys with those salaries in the
US are actually more skilled than me and there is no point on comparing.

For the record I have a bachelor degree on computer science (from a local
university), was Cisco CCNA certified (expired already) and consider myself to
be a fairly competent full stack programmer, in the sense that I can build a
web application from zero and handle everything from setting up the server and
designing the DB to developing the user interface (html, css) and programming
the back-end (in PHP)

I have recently reached the same conclusion that the person on the article,
and I'm planning to launch a SaaS side project of my own and let the market
decide the real value of my work...

~~~
komali2
If you can build and deploy a webapp from zero to nothing you could make 120k
usd in San Francisco, cause that's what bootcamp grads are doing and pretty
much the only thing they bring to the table is webapp skills.

Visa and etc might make it harder for you, but if it were me I'd start
browsing for remote positions at San Francisco companies.

~~~
purple-again
$120k is San Fran could easily be a worse quality of life than $40k in Central
America (too broad to say for certain).

~~~
maccard
I've seen this sentiment posted before and it's pretty much untrue. At
120k/year, even spending 4K/month on rent, your leftover pay is still more
than my gross salary. I know SF is expensive, but if you can't have a nice QOL
on a the leftovers of a 120k salary, your location isn't the problem.

~~~
ingenuous2
$120k in SF probably amounts to take home just under $6k/mo. $4k goes to rent,
so you have $2k for everything else.

That's not a great QOL. For comparison, I ran the Mexico City / SF cost of
living on Numbeo[0]. $38k in Mexico City would need to be $140k in SF for
comparable quality of life.

(side note -- this COL calculator is super neat! anyone have any evidence of
the accuracy?)

[0] [https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Mexico&country2=United+States&city1=Mexico+City&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA)

~~~
gcb0
I have. it grossly underestimates.

a while ago, this and other sites said I needed 120k in LA and 140k in SF to
maintain my south america 40k.

turns out I moved making more than the SF salary in LA. and it still falls
short on what I have money to do on short trips and night life.

I guess it is acurate if you dont go out every friday and saturday and never,
ever leave the city for the longer holidays.

------
devdad
> "That feeling that I am actually the one making this work, and I'm also
> perfectly capable of talking with people and selling it"

The last part of this sentence is what is important. I'm a decent programmer,
having built a few apps both for web and phones. My colleague is a better
programmer. We're getting tons of work (by me selling) and outsourcing lots of
it to other programmers we know, because they can't sell. Selling is hard,
building trust is harder and doing so continuously is even harder.

My point, although a bit drawn out, is: It doesn't matter how great you are as
a developer if you can't sell. Running a business is another kind of hard than
dealing with race conditions. You can probably learn how to do both.

------
ohthehugemanate
I am continually surprised that _anyone_ in tech signs employment contracts in
Europe. If you're good, and know how to work well remotely, contract work at
130-150€/hr is plentiful. Working 32 (billable) hrs/wk with 6 weeks vacation -
more or less what you'd do as an Employee - that's an income between 190-220k.
But every employment contract I've heard of here (France and Germany) maxes
out at 90-100k for even director level positions.

I'm still shocked by it every time. Especially since the same person who makes
you that offer will complain that it's so hard to find talent. What a
surprise! Who would think, it's hard to hire people by offering less than half
their market rate.

~~~
Sholmesy
Hey there,

Londoner here feeling quite constrained with salaries, curious where you find
130-150/hr remote gigs. Mostly through a personal network? Or a recruiter?
Really curious.

~~~
Swinx43
Same here. I would love to find those remote gigs at that price. I am
contracting in London in the data space and would jump at the opportunity to
work remotely for that amount.

There definitely is a very real salary ceiling in the tech world in London.

~~~
Sholmesy
How do you like contracting?

I'm on salary at the moment, but it would take a lot for me to make anything
near what the day rates for 3/6 month contracts are paying.

~~~
Swinx43
I am really liking contracting. It is just a different way of working compared
to permanent but I prefer it. I am ex consulting so like the ability to have
new projects / clients on a 3 to 6 month basis. It also allows for a lot of
freedom.

One thing to remember though is that those day rates do get taxed pretty much
the same as a permanent job if you pay all your earnings out to yourself. The
tax laws have closed a lot of the loop holes.

I would be very happy to discuss contracting further if you were interested.
Drop me an email if you want.

------
1throwaway123
Salary progression for me

First job (India) 2006 - ~$4,000 per year

Second Job (India) 2008 - ~$10,000 per year

Third job (US) 2010 - $105k

Fourth Job (US) 2012 - >$150K

Things have gone well since then too. The main thing that has kept things
going up so far is really practicing before interviews to try and get better
and never shying from looking for better opportunities. The company and I have
a transactional relationship, not an emotional one.

~~~
anotheryou
how long did you stay at each job?

~~~
ARCarr
It has the dates right there...2 years each is looks like.

~~~
anotheryou
Must have been before my first covfefe or it got edited :) thanks

------
ajdlinux
I'm a junior developer in a megacorp, where I sometimes think about how I'm
not getting the salary I could be getting if I moved to SF, negotiated a bit
harder, pushed for quicker promotions...

But I'm not the lowest paid person in the office. Even the junior devs who
started well after I did and haven't had as many raises aren't the lowest paid
in the office.

I'm fairly sure the lowest paid people in the office are the cleaning
contractors who come in after hours, almost certainly with far less
flexibility, worse working conditions and worse job security than the
programmers whose mess they vacuum.

Not that this stops me from pursuing career progression, but it'd be nice to
see software developers show a bit of solidarity with people who aren't lucky
enough to be able to work with tech and who live paycheque to paycheque,
rather than discussing how they're going to negotiate their way up to being in
the global 0.5%.

~~~
chris11
Developers are in a completely different situation than a lot of other people.
The money we might get by aggressively negotiating would mean a lot more to
other people. But refusing to negotiate or to that raise won't increase other
people's salary. Having empathy with other people's situation doesn't require
us to ignore our own higher salaries. Political action (whether company or
government) or charitable contributions would be a lot more effective in
improving peoples lives.

~~~
ajdlinux
So, how generous are programmers as a profession?

------
i_dont_know_
The salaries are much lower compared to the large sales contracts because the
company is compensating you for uncertainty.

If you stick with a company, you're guaranteed whatever your salary is even if
the company doesn't make any sales. If they're doing really well in terms of
sales and contracts, then they pocket the difference, but if they're not, you
pocket the loss.

I personally agree with the author that it's worth getting paid for the
uncertainty with your own company (in most cases the rewards outweigh the risk
assuming you have enough to float on for a year or so while you're learning),
but some people find that stressful and are willing to pay a pretty hefty
premium for that certainty of a regular monthly check.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Every contracting company I worked for, had me full-time on projects. If they
didn't have work for everybody, they laid off. They covered their 'risk' that
way. Its a hoax that they took 25% (or more) to cover 'risk. It was to cover
their vacation home payments.

~~~
AstralStorm
They were covering the risk of default (Or rate adjustment) on their loans.
Whether said loans were necessary is another matter.

------
retrac98
It seems like these kinds of salaries only really exist for full time
employees in the US. As a software architect (engineer team size ~100) in the
UK I was only making £65k. I could have shopped around and got more, much more
if I went to London but still nothing like I read about in the US.

I ended up leaving full time employment for contracting/consulting.

~~~
otto_ortega
I completely agree... It is even worse if you live on latin america.

The really sad part is when you take into consideration that programming and
CS jobs in general are one of the jobs on which you can generate the same
value being on-site or at the other end of the world.

So in theory there is no reason why you couldn't do the same thing someone in
the US is doing and get paid the same amount.

Oh well, such is life...

~~~
Consultant32452
>programming and CS jobs in general are one of the jobs on which you can
generate the same value being on-site or at the other end of the world.

This is one of those things that seems like it should be true in principle,
but doesn't seem to be true in practice. I don't believe my employer is
generous. I'm certain if they could generate the same value for a
significantly lower cost they would.

------
nachtigall
> And negotiate.

Even better, negotiate collectively. It's easy to lay off one person but you
cannot lay off a whole branch (or all employees ideally).

I know I'm dreaming but there are decades if not centuries of experiences of
worker struggles about better salaries or working condition. And well, there
are just basics, to be learnt about. If you are on a one-by-one negotiating
with your boss in private, then you are in an environment where you've already
lost.

It's no surprise that in all other industries salaries working conditions are
negotiated (and fought for) collectively.

~~~
gcb0
ah yes. the great union collective fear that was masterly imbued in the mind
of every middle class american.

even down to the point of dictionaries now listing syndicate as organised
crime. yes, there was some cases. but steve jobs also was convicted of
organized crime literally on wages fixing and he never made it into a
dictionary as a synonym to organized crime like they did to unions.

------
snowglobe789
And meanwhile I'm dreaming about making more than 500 euro/month working as a
ASP.NET/C# dev

~~~
yxhuvud
Eastern europe?

~~~
ManlyBread
In Eastern Europe he'd be severely underpaid unless he is an intern or has
less than a year of experience, I have 1.5 years of experience and just landed
a job where my net pay is more than 1k EUR - and I'm a fairly average
programmer

------
bronz
i think programmers and a lot of other people get paid way too much. i used to
wash dishes and the other guy who washed dishes, who worked right next to me,
was an immigrant. he worked 12 hours a day every single solitary day. without
him, the restaurant would grind to a halt. so, like stephanie, he was a huge
part of all the money that was made. and yet, he gets paid less than minimum
wage. he works harder than anyone else i have ever known and yet he gets paid
a pittance. he make their business possible and yet he is paid a pittance. let
me tell you that seeing programmers make 50k a year for basically no work
compared to my friend, its amazing to me. and when i see white collar workers
complain that they only make 100k, it makes me angry. the vast, vast majority
of white collar workers are not worth anything close to what they are paid. i
know a guy who works four hours a week and is paid more than 80k. four hours
of typing per week. the level of privilege is astounding among programmers. so
please dont complain.

~~~
vostok
I don't think you're actually arguing that programmers get paid too much.

You are arguing that dishwashers get paid too little. Your argument is that
dishwashers produce a lot of value and you're right about that. The restaurant
is willing to pay probably as much as $50/hour for a dishwasher if not more.
The problem is that people are willing to take the job at $15/hour so there's
no incentive for the restaurant to pay more.

~~~
anotheryou
You just said it yourself: the market dictates the price and it is not tied to
effort or anything just.

People mostly get paid just the right ammount according to the market, but
from any other percepective the numbers are pretty aribtrary and by no means
justifiable. At most one could say that some people don't work hard on their
carrees and e.g. try to make a living from beeing an artist (or in oter words:
don't optimize for money). But this is not true for the dishwasher either.

------
Traubenfuchs
European developers can only cry when they see numbers beyond 100k and even
that is very, very unrealistic for seasoned senior devs in the "richer"
european countries.

------
kisstheblade
Yes well I don't know where these enormously successful companies are in
europe with millions going to some non-deserving CEO. Sure there may be some
that do reasonably well, but It is quite a cut throat industry. 100k+ salaries
seem downright ridiculous from an european perspective. (When not talking
about facebook, google and other wildly successfull companies mainly serving
the ad industry)

------
spraak
Taking advice from the article to share about salary:

I have 2.5 years of software development experience but no formal education. I
am paid 65k/yr but as a remote contractor, so I pay my own taxes and
healthcare, which effectively makes my salary about 57k/yr. I'm considering
looking for a new position. What is a reasonable salary to ask for?

Edit: I live in California and prefer to continue working remotely

~~~
curun1r
This may be unconventional advice, but with your level of experience, I say
don't try to maximize compensation right now. Instead, look to find the best
experience possible so you can have the best narrative possible when you've
got 5-7 years experience. At your level, my guess is you'd top out at around
$90k/yr if you bargained hard. Senior and Staff engineers can easily make
twice that, especially when you find a situation with decent equity. So figure
out the shortest path to get to those senior levels so you can start
interviewing for those jobs as soon as possible.

As a hiring manager, I've interviewed people who have 5 great years of
experience who I'm very comfortable hiring into those senior roles. And I've
also interviewed people who have 15 years on paper but when you dig into it,
it's the same one year of experience 15 times over. They're an easy pass from
a hiring standpoint. Not everyone looks at candidates the way that I do, but
it's still extremely common for some people to move up much faster than
others. Anything you can do to be one of the group that moves up quickly will
make you more money in the long run.

Things you can be looking for right now instead of money:

\- Try to find a team where you're the weakest member. It may be scary, but
you learn from working with talented engineers and if you're the strongest
member of the team, you'll stagnate.

\- If you've got more than 18 months in a position and you feel you're not
learning something important, jump to a new position. Diversity of experience
is usually better than a single, longer experience even if it's good
experience.

\- As much as it gets trashed around here, chase the latest buzzword
technologies. The more technologies you can prove you know, the more you can
prove your ability to learn and the more money you're likely to get offered.

\- A chance to take on responsibility beyond your years. If someone is willing
to offer you a senior title with senior responsibilities but only pay you a
junior salary, that's worth something. The next time you jump, you'll be able
to jump into a senior-paid role.

The advice changes once you get through your rapid advancement years, but for
someone just starting out, I think the above is pretty solid. Focus on growing
yourself...the money will follow.

~~~
komali2
Curious why you think a 2 year software developer would top out at 90 in
California. That's the lowest I've seen a bootcamp grad (no university
computer science) get as their first engineering job.

~~~
curun1r
He said he wanted to stay remote. If he was willing to come to the Valley or
SF or even Silicon Beach, he could get more.

------
lordnacho
It's mostly a question of negotiating position.

If you have some savings, you can take longer to search for a new job, or you
can give yourself the upside option of starting a new business. If you're
broke, you basically have to take whatever you can find before food runs out.

At the moment, there's pressure on people's budgets coming from rent. Asset
prices are inflated thanks to cheap money (in several places around the
world), and that pushes up rents as well as mortgages. This adds to everyone's
burn rate, and transfers both actual wealth but also opportunity people who
owned homes before it all went crazy.

(Another thing that ate up opportunity for the masses was that they didn't let
the economy fail.)

> "That feeling that I am actually the one making this work, and I'm also
> perfectly capable of talking with people and selling it"

I've come to this conclusion as well. It's narrow minded, but I do tend to
think that technologists are actually the only people making the world better.

Organisers (leaders, management, bureaucrats, sales) have existed since the
dawn of civilisation. What do they do? They use influence to manipulate some
group of people to behave in some way that they like. Sometimes it works for
everyone, sometimes it works just for them. But they've always been around,
and we've never lacked for people who thought they were good leaders.

Technologists, by contrast, make new things. That's in the word. And by making
new things new ways of organising society arise, often benefitting a lot of
people.

What's interesting about our time is that there's a perception, pretty much
unfounded, that technical people aren't social. And with that the idea that
there are certain people (called BSers when they do it badly) who are
naturally more social and thus better at handling relations such as sales. It
is of course totally wrong; you can practice social skills as much as you can
practice algorithms.

------
prodtorok
Where is a good site to calculate worth? I've been using Glassdoor, but this
article and thread make me feel skeptical.

I thought I've done well in my negotiating (in D.C.): 80k -> 90k (9m) -> 95k
(12m) -> 105k base (1y7m, new job) -> present 2y2m later.

I now feel as if Ive shorted myself. I guess I shouldn't compare to Glassdoor?
My salary is above the median listed at Glassdoor. The article makes me feel
under-valued. The numbers I see just seem crazy. At the same time, I know my
talent is greater than that of most "seniors" I work with, have led teams, and
my product engineering has been fast and "impressive".

My boss assured me that Im on the fast track to promotion, but now I feel as
if after 1y at my new company, I must request a significant raise, like 20%,
or move on again.

------
suresh70
Large companies are like a big analog machines run largely by human power. The
machine absorbs lot of power and produces large output. The large output
shouldn't be compared to that of individual's share for helping run that
machinery.

------
alex_dax
My salary progression:

First job, Ukraine C# Developer 6000$/year

Second job, Ukraine C#/Java Developer 7200$/year

Third job, Poland, Dynamics AX Developer 7200$/year, got raise to 13000$/year

And now I'm moving to Germany as a Junior Dynamics AX Developer for 40 000$ +
bonuses

------
thyselius
In your new company, do you/would you split the revenue evenly with devs you
hire?

------
daxfohl
I made my best money about 5 years after graduating. Became a specialist at a
very specific technology, got ~$150/hr for a little over a year. Of course
Econ 101 kicked in and supply for that skill increased and so salary went
down. Since then just trying to hang on. Consulting fees continually harder to
justify vs low-bidders and contracts harder to come by. 15 years later gave
that up for corporate. Not doing bad but also not making 300K/yr. Though I do
have good benefits now. Anyway hopefully Stephanie does well.

------
no_protocol
> My first job out of college I got paid $42,000. ... This was in 2013.

Me too. I was able to get it from $41,000 to $42,000 by asking for more. I'm
up to $48,000 now! Nice job.

------
nsxwolf
"Within a year, after leading several projects"

What the hell? Is that a normal career progression for a junior developer
straight out of college?

~~~
spery
It's not uncommon to let capable junior devs run a small project with someone
more experienced having oversight.

------
animex
I like her matter-of-fact "I'll just start a company and making millions of
dollars instead!" If it were only that simple?

~~~
chrisco255
Well, she says if she falls on hard times, she'll just pick up contract work.
There are plenty of gigs out there for talented devs.

------
throwaway38743
This is how things are the world over.

I once worked for a company which was happy to support a grad student in the
US, but would not pay me a similar RA/tuition salary here. This, even if I had
better results to show in a shorter period.

Equity is alien, and generally connections/networking commands more salary
than skills/knowledge. Really sad TBH.

~~~
spraak
Where is "here" for you?

------
seedle12
I'm an Android dev w/ Angular 2 and web app dev skills in . the UK.. I'm not
even remotely scratching the surface of what engineers are being paid in the
US. I'm making the transition to contracting.. working 12 - 14 hours
permanently for peanuts is ridiculous.

~~~
chuckit2
(Throw-away account)

I have similar skills working in London for a "major search engine" (you've
used it within the past 90 seconds I bet) - I guess I am one level below being
considered "senior".

£65K basic, about £15-20K annual bonus and roughly $40K in stock grants a
year, so works out at about £100K a year when all is said and done (or about
$130K) before taxes.

Not sure how that compares to your pay, but I know that mine is lower than the
people on my team doing the same job but based in SF or NYC - not by a _huge_
amount, but certainly in the tens-of-thousands.

I know deep down in my heart that I should go contracting to double my pay and
get a much more flexible work-life balance, but I just cant yet bring myself
to quit mainly out of pride and because I expect when it comes to contractor
interviews people will just not understand why I quit "major search engine"
(plus I'd be throwing away about a hundred grand in stock that hasn't vested
yet).

Golden handcuffs - first world problems suck.

~~~
dood
> people will just not understand why I quit "major search engine"

Don't know how you got this idea. No-one will care.

~~~
chuckit2
You may be right.

My fear is that people would assume I was sacked/forced-out for being crap
though, since there is such a mystique around the company and people dream of
getting a job there. Perhaps in a few more years things will tarnish a bit
more.

~~~
dood
Nah, don't worry about it. If anything people will respect you for following
your passions, but more likely they just won't care. Strong developers are
rare, no-one will question how they arrived in their interview room, they'll
just be glad you're there.

------
joeframbach
I felt the same way in 2007 when I was making $36k in my first job. My mind
changed after I had competing offers and actually negotiated, and am making
several multiples of that initial amount. Now I'm in the camp of "you get what
you ask for".

------
retube
> I could do this myself without him. It didn't feel right

You may be about to learn a hard lesson. Anyone can do a job. _Creating_ a job
is hard.

Good luck

~~~
drakonka
She is now doing just that. Check out some of her work, she has started a
company creating a texture compressor and speaks/runs workshops pretty
regularly. I am not a graphics programmer but find some of the material she
shares really interesting.

------
leeoniya
a good opportunity is to bring more value to the company than simply the code
you write (easier to do in smaller companies with a shallow hierarchy). i
recently switched out our payment processor after shopping around and reduced
our transaction fees by $70k/yr into the foreseeable future. negotiations tend
to go more smoothly afterwards.

~~~
joombaga
That's great! These are the kinds of things I tell juniors to put on their
resume. There's big value in demonstrated cost-cutting ability.

------
cerealbad
if you are bad at negotiation you should hire someone to do it for you.

~~~
christophilus
That is an interesting idea. I haven't heard of anyone doing that in the tech
world.

~~~
brepl
Good recruiters do this for you.

------
vacri
> _I couldn 't shake that feeling I got from my first gig in programming. That
> feeling that I am actually the one making this work, and I'm also perfectly
> capable of talking with people and selling it-- and yet they make millions
> and I make a tiny fraction._

So... do it. The author claims to be just as good at business and selling.
So... do it. If you're sour about it and think you can do it, then do it.

HN used to be a place where people understood that it took more to running a
tech business than being a programmer. Pounding the pavement is hard. Getting
clients is hard. Securing funding is hard. Legal work is hard. Securing staff
is hard. Dealing with burn rate is hard. Finding market fit is hard. Complying
with regulations is hard.

If you can do all of this (I can't - I have no entrepreneurial bone in my
body, and am a lifer salaryman), then do it. It's very satisfying even if
you're not made filthy rich from it. But don't sit there as a salaried
employee complaining that you should be given the lion's share because you do
'all the work'. Chances are, you're missing a hell of a lot that is being
done.

Thankfully the author is actually following up on this, but I see this kind of
mentality a lot in our industry.

Short form: if you think you can 'do all this' _and_ you're sour about not
getting enough money for your skills, then you only have one option towards
satisfaction: do it.

------
kutkloon7
Salaries in the US seem really high compared to those in the Netherlands. I
have 2 bachelor and 2 master degrees in STEM. I made €10/hour (about $12)
giving private math and programming lessons, while I earn roughly €13/hour
(about $15) at my entry level job (after tax deduction).

I would expect my salary to grow at my current job. I also feel that I would
have been hired at my current job if I just had my bachelor degree.

~~~
Bootvis
Going on only those credentials you should be able to get a better paid job,
also in the Netherlands (I'm Dutch).

~~~
TheArcane
What would good salaries be for an experienced resarch engineer in software
doing specialized work in the Netherlands?

~~~
Bootvis
It depends but my ballpark estimate would be around 70k but it depends on many
factors. I'd surprised if those skills go for less than 50k.

------
denisehilton
The thing is most of the people in the tech industry are moving towards
programming and app development. Looks like the programming sector will get
saturated in the next few years. The average salaries are going to take a hit
as well.

~~~
sk5t
An increase in the number of people attracted to programming jobs does not
necessarily move the supply curve of people who are good at programming.

~~~
cookiecaper
I have a friend who suggests the opposite of the grandparent's assertion.
Since every new line of code represents technical debt that must be serviced,
each new programmer generates a maintenance burden sufficient to occupy the
time of 2 more programmers.

~~~
taneq
Assuming programmers generate a net increase in lines of code. (When working
on a mature codebase, I'd expect that the better the programmer, the more
likely this number actually is to be _negative_.)

~~~
cookiecaper
I agree that it is _possible_ for programmers to have a net-negative impact on
LOC, but I didn't really address that because I can't think of many realistic
long-term employment solutions where that would be the normal expectation
(driveby consulting gigs don't count).

Even if you walk in and are able to eliminate large quantities of cruft in
your first, say, 3 months on the job, once you pare the core down and
simplify, the company will continue to want new features and changes, which
will typically necessitate some growth.

I think the best realistic option would be a relatively-modest gain in net
lines over the course of a year, commensurate with the number of new features.

