

Orbs CCG (YC S13) takes to Kickstarter to reinvent Magic: The Gathering - jordanmessina
http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/17/orbs-ccg-kickstarter/

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forrestthewoods
I don't know a polite way to say this so I'll be blunt. The first words out of
mouth were "holy crap" at how bad the art is. The big image in the link and on
the kickstarter video look like mediocre high school art. It's really bad. The
game interface is then pure programmer art. Please, please, please hire
multiple artists.

That said, this is a great market to be in as HEX raised 2.2 million. Their
project already had significant investment before hitting kickstarter though.
The bar is quite high. [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-
trading-card...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-
game)

~~~
minimaxir
It appears that Orbs is copying the game UI and card design from Magic: The
Gathering Online.

The only problem is that UI is literally _11 years old_.

[http://www.gamershell.com/static/screenshots/4002/61895_full...](http://www.gamershell.com/static/screenshots/4002/61895_full.jpg)

~~~
jrpt
The aesthetics of the app are going to improve.

The card art is pretty high quality, and I disagree with whoever said it was
high school art. They're professional artists doing a good job.

That being said, the app's UX is actually really usable and what people expect
when playing. It's evolved to the way it is currently based on user testing.
It doesn't look as pretty as it could, but it's very easy and natural to use.

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csense
This is somewhat off-topic, but HN'ers may be interested to know the business
history of the Magic: The Gathering trading card game that's this YC company's
inspiration.

MTG was a bootstrapped startup designed by a mathematics PhD student. A great
product that resonated with fans, a then-unique market niche, good retail
distribution (pretty important for physical products in the early '90s), and
favorable acquisitions led to a nine-figure exit for the founder [1].

[1]
[http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fsb/fsb_archive/2004/10/01/81...](http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fsb/fsb_archive/2004/10/01/8187285/)

~~~
mabhatter
Magic:the Gathering is a freak of nature. It was a clever game that was
brought to a niche company of RPG geeks who's day jobs were managing aerospace
projects. In short a bunch of well-to-do hobby publishers with day jobs saw
the product and "bet the farm" on making it work out when lightening struck.

From that point on, its been an anomaly in the gaming market, often imitated,
never duplicated the exact mix that sparked it. WoTC has learned the limits of
where their formula works as well, even THEY can't copy Magic.

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csense
The best CCG I've seen is Dominions [1], because it eliminates the more
annoying and expensive aspects of the game involving accumulating and managing
large, valuable collections of cards. But I've always been more interested in
the strategy aspect of games much more than the collectability aspect.

But from a business standpoint, the latter tendency is more desirable to
cultivate in players because it's more profitable. When I actively played
both, I spent at least an order of magnitude more annually on Magic cards than
on Dominion and its expansions.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(card_game)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_\(card_game\))

~~~
adient
Dominion isn't a CCG, it's a deck building board game. Two completely
different categories that aren't directly competing.

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jrpt
Hi, this is Jeff with Orbs CCG. Here's a direct link to the Kickstarter:

[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/919406593/orbs-ccg-
the-a...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/919406593/orbs-ccg-the-
asynchronous-digital-collectible-card)

------
wahjah
M:tG is a behemoth in the space, primarily on the back of the physical cards.
Magic Online has a really poor interface, but it can qualify you for a pro
tour which has a fairly large payout. The other digital magic games have much
better interfaces, but don't tie into the competitive aspects of the game.
They still solidify the brand.

I'm curious how these guys plan to compete with the major players in the
space. Most of the real products have a huge backing and insane marketing
budgets.

Is there a way they're trying to sell this beyond, "hey, why aren't you just
playing the largest (and currently growing) CCG?"

~~~
jrpt
The biggest point of differentiation is asynchronous play. You can't play
Magic and most CCGs asynchronously, because every card you play has the option
of being responded to (by counterspells, for instance).

The benefit of asynchronous play is that you get to play with your friends and
family, regardless of time or location. This makes the game more social and
fun, and better than playing random players from the internet.

More info: [http://orbsccg.com/comparison](http://orbsccg.com/comparison)

~~~
anonymoushn
Are you concerned about competition? Many online CCGs have rulesets capable of
supporting asynchronous play (Might and Magic: Duel of Champions, Solforge,
Sword Girls, Elements the Game, etc.) and Infinity Wars' devs have publicly
announced that they will do it.

Notably Hex seems to have the same issue as MtG where asynchronous play is not
practical.

~~~
jrpt
Well there's a lot of difference in all those games, and they're going to
attract different types of players. Just compare Sword Girls with Solforge,
for instance.

Just as important if not more than competing with other games is competing for
awareness. I've done surveys of what other games people play, and the majority
of players know about Magic but are unaware of the other games out there.

So I'm not overly concerned but I have done my research and follow what the
other games are doing.

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cpeterso
I've only played Magic: The Gather a few times, but it would be interesting to
focus more on deck building and then let the _computer_ "play" randomized
head-to-head games. Players could tweak their decks between rounds or games.

~~~
cabalamat
> Players could tweak their decks between rounds or games.

Or the computer could, evolving better decks.

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pubby
I feel like a very crucial bit of information was left out: how does one
acquire cards? Is it like traditional TCGs where you pay a few dollars to get
a random dozen? If so, count me out.

~~~
jrpt
Yes, you can buy booster packs and starter decks. This is the business model
of all virtual goods games. You can also earn cards for free too in the game.

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Tichy
I am stunned that apparently there are no HTML5 based trading card games yet.
I would have expected there to be hundreds already.

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michaelochurch
Game designer here. Like the idea. I doubt it will catch on among ex-M:tG
players due to uncanny valley effects. It could still be a great game and I
really hope it succeeds, but I don't see the CCG model itself generating a
hit.

If I were to do a CCG, I'd take serious inspiration from the German-style
board game genre. #1. Use a Victory Point goal instead of "kill the other guy"
so you have interesting 3+ player play. #2. Use market-type mechanics and lots
of options to avoid mana screw type degeneracies.

That said, I've heard of CCGs failing for not having enough random luck... so
take my advice with a huge grain of salt. If you optimize away all the luck,
you take out of the fun and most players will say you've gone too far at that
point.

The problem with most of these post-Magic CCGs is that they're too similar to
Magic, which was groundbreaking in its time but couldn't benefit from the
German-style aesthetic, largely because it hadn't developed yet.

Secondly, being online is a disadvantage. Cards are part of the experience.
Also, physical cards make Magic's love/hate scarcity socially acceptable in a
way that it won't be in an online game. The way to win is to make the online
aspect an advantage instead by open sourcing it. However, that requires a lot
in the way of community management. It'll be a lot of fun, but hard to scale.

~~~
jrpt
Those are some good points. The point about mana screw is really important
because it's a big turn off for players. Orbs has no mana flooding or mana
screw, because there's no dedicated resource card. Instead, once per turn, any
card may be discarded for one energy of its color, and this energy regenerates
each turn.

Being a digital CCG is a big advantage, actually. There's huge opportunity in
the digital CCG market right now, and five years from now I think we'll say
2013 was the year that DCCGs started taking off. If not 2012, even: look at
how well Rage of Bahamut did (technically a card battler, but still relevant).
Rage of Bahamut is falling off the charts now, but I believe that if a digital
CCG were balanced and had a pro community (for e-sports), it could be
evergreen, where you come out with new sets regularly. Magic, for instance, is
on its 20th year.

I think one macro reason DCCGs are taking off now is that virtual goods games
are more acceptable to Western audiences. It used to be people didn't want to
pay real money for virtual goods, whereas now it's pretty much expected in
most games.

