

Humanity or gtfo - steveklabnik
http://lindseykuper.livejournal.com/418854.html

======
pstack
Let me get this straight . . . you guys:

Someone came into the channel and addressed the group with a colloquial
"guys", by asking "guys, can you recommend a library?".

The author of this account, who is admittedly preoccupied with issues of
gender and sexism to the point that they admit to having to make efforts not
to take offense at people using "guys" colloquially, accosts the unsuspecting
visitor.

... Even though they pointed out that they have gone out of their way to no
longer take offense at the colloquial use of the word "guys".

... But is, then, offended by the colloquial use of the word guys.

... To the point that they accost the visitor over it. Even implying in front
of the whole channel that the visitor is sexist and ignorant that women exist
on IRC (which can be the only purpose of calling them out on that word).

The visitor is likely surprised, shocked, and did not come into the technical
channel to discuss a technical question to have a discussion about gender and
linguistic issues, so tries to diffuse the situation with some poorly chosen
attempt at ironic humor by rhetorically employing a couple common internet
memes "proof" and "boobs or gtfo". You know, the same way a lot of nice normal
people might awkwardly respond to being sideswiped out of nowhere by someone
with a pet-issue to grind at every opportunity (though that is something I
usually ascribe to people trying to turn every conversation into a debate
about guns, abortion, immigration, or Obama's birth certificate).

Nobody has ever been out in public or at a party minding their own business or
having a discussion and had someone come out of the blue to attack them loudly
in front of everybody about something crazy that didn't seem to have any
relevance to the moment? I'm sure that's how this person felt.

Kind of the way I remember having someone come up to me out of nowhere in
public to talk about how I needed to find god and was going to hell and,
dismissively, I told them I didn't have time to listen to them, because I was
already late for a group satanic sacrifice. Spoiler -- I wasn't actually a
satanist and I wasn't really on my way to participate in any sort of
sacrifice. I was being _gasp_ dismissive toward the person who attacked me
like a crazy person, out of nowhere.

The author, who used to get upset at "guys", but no longer gets upset at
"guys", except that they just got upset at "guys" admits that the thing that
actually upset them was the way the visitor responded. They "expected" or
"wanted" the person to engage in a discussion of gender and linguistics. The
author states this in the first half of their livejournal update.

In short, the author of this livejournal entry was trolling, knew they were
trolling, and while probably unwilling to admit that they were, goes on to
detail what can only be described as trolling behavior on their own accord.

And, because the visitor chose to sarcastically dismiss it by repeating a
couple silly internet memes rather than take the author's bait to have a
heated gender and linguistics debate in a tech channel, the author appealed to
the moderators to have the visitor banned . . . which he then was.

The author then poses the question about whatever are we to do about trolls? A
hypocritical question, given the circumstances. Nonetheless, it would seem
fairly self-evident that what you should do about trolls in a community is
appeal to the moderation team of your community to do something about it and
if they don't, consider finding a community with better moderation.

I would suggest that the visitor responded to being accosted rather poorly,
but I can certainly understand the intent behind his poor response. He was
attacked out of nowhere for something trivial (and not even reaching the
levels of trivial to most human beings who simply wouldn't give a damn), but
probably should have paused for a moment longer and taken a deep breath before
responding _at all_. Perhaps even ignoring the comment entirely and going on
with his technical purpose for being in the channel.

I would also suggest that the author was clearly engaging in trollish behavior
and then lobbied the moderation in a room that this person is already known in
to deal with the person that they tried to troll by trying to label _them_ a
troll. They got their way, likely due to the bias of familiarity with the
author, and got the person banned. Then went on to write an article outlining
everything and purporting to be yet another victim of yet another brash
example of sexist internet trolls.

My advice? If you're going to bitch about trolls on the internet, don't be one
yourself. If something truly and legitimately is offensive and disruptive,
seek moderation, which exists in most communities. And, finally, no matter how
well-intentioned you are, someone will always find things to be offended by
with regard to yourself, so learn to just shrug it off, not respond or engage
such people at all lest you become fodder for their crusade, and just carry on
with what you were doing before.

Addendum:

None of this is meant to imply that there are not legitimate assholes out
there intending to offend and disrupt, because there certainly are plenty of
them.

I am also not "excusing" or "justifying" anyone's behavior. I know the common
response to anything short of "oh, you poor thing -- you had to deal with that
hideous troll!" would be treated as excusing mistreatment on the internet. I
am simply trying to clarify what happened here, according to the livejournal
entry, itself. To suggest that the author played a purely innocent role here
and was not itching for a fight and engaging in trollish behavior here and
then lashing out (via moderators) at someone would be pretty myopic.

~~~
oftenwrong
Not excusing and justifying? You flipped the blame onto her, calling her a
troll, and rationalizing away at the offensive comments. She hinted that she
was a woman, and their first response is to ask to see her breasts. That's not
humanity, that's objectification. Even if it was an attempt at humor, or an
awkward side-stepping of an unexpected "battle", it would not make it
acceptable to be so sexist. The fact that such a phrase has become a meme only
makes it worse to repeat it.

~~~
unlogic
_She hinted that she was a woman_

Which of course was really relevant to the discussion. Don't you get annoyed
by people showing off when it's completely off the mark?

"Guys and gals, point me to the library to do X." \- "You know, there are
transgender developers on the channel." \- "You don't say."

------
rdtsc
Good post, thanks for bringing everyone's attention to it.

Quite often I imagine many choose not say anything, and things should be said.
It is certainly not going to change the person who posted that. I doubt one
can "grow" from that low of a level to become much, but it highlights an
important topic for everyone else. I will certainly be more mindful and try to
be more inclusive when talking to groups (I am guilty of using "guys" often
even in mixed groups).

At the same time one can generalize this and ask "how should we deal with
trolls in online communities?". Gross jokes, racist comments, the worst one
can imagine pop up often in anonymous online communities. The joke about how
the language is now "famous" was perhaps not a good joke but there is dose of
truth. The language is more visible. One certainly could have logged into the
channel even if it had 2 people in it and proceeded to make offensive
comments, but the chance of that was just lower. Now it is higher. There will
be worse comments seen as well. Sadly it is just a fact of human nature and
interaction online.

Now to dig at it a little deeper. I wonder if the disgust and shock was aimed
equally at the silent majority, who I suspect, the author feels should have
condemned the insult publicly. Sometimes things are written between the lines.
The expectation is that one a member of a group is attack I would want to be
defended by other members or at least get private words of support from them.
And that would make sense except that the practical means of dealing with a
troll is to ban and ignore. Condemning things publicly, calling them names
back, insulting, even openly discussing it while they are around, just fuels
the fire for them. They mission is accomplished then. So everyone ignores
them. But to the person who was attacked, it seems like the tacit majority
agrees with the attacker or at least doesn't feel the attack warrants words of
support.

~~~
elnate
> I wonder if the disgust and shock was aimed equally at the silent majority,
> who I suspect, the author feels should have condemned the insult publicly.

It's IRC not a real world meeting. The silent majority is that way because
they're not actually there and watching.

~~~
rdtsc
I understood that. There are even links to IRC logs. There is a delay. The
idea is that they might not jump in right away but will say something later,
maybe 10 minutes or hours later.

Like the "well it means we are famous now" comment is made 10 minutes or so
later.

But yeah I guess if it is 5 hours later, it seems silly to comment on it.
Especially since the author didn't express her indignation publicly in that
channel, so those that might have defended her probably thought she shrugged
it off.

------
theorique
Among my friends, peers, and coworkers (generally 22-40), I've noticed many
_women_ calling mixed groups - and even groups of women - "guys". In the same
groups, in casual parlance, women will call other women "dude".

I think these terms are losing their gender-specificity and merely becoming a
way to refer to a generic (non-sex/gender specified) person.

Of course, depending on your peer groups, and the level of formality in
communication, your situation may be different. (i.e. if your entire peer-
group is hypersensitive, politically-correct language police, feel free to
modify.)

~~~
jvanenk
Or the circle you're working in is comprised of people from varying languages,
countries, and backgrounds to whom "guys" might be at best ambiguous.

~~~
theorique
Yeah, ESL issues can contribute to this blurring as well.

