
Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia - snowy
https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/06/why-so-many-top-hackers-hail-from-russia/
======
rndmize
I think this stems in part from the "oh I'm so bad at math" culture we have in
the US, where its almost expected that most kids won't be good at mathematics.
The side effect of this, imo, is that fields that are close to math or
dependent on it (physics, stats, CS, etc.) pick up a piece of that stigma and
idea that its acceptable to be bad at these things.

I've seen occasional articles about quants on wall street and how a good
number of them are Russian/Eastern European (this kind of thing -
[https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-01-21/how-
russi...](https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-01-21/how-russia-has-
lost-its-mathematical-minds-to-the-west) ) and I feel this is another directly
related element - having a strong math culture allows you to have a strong CS
culture.

I've been happy to see that in the last decade, the US is starting to start
bringing the pieces we need to get that kind of culture back - the popularity
of startups and programming with the media that bring them to the attention of
the average person. Space is cool again, and movies like "The Martian" are,
imo, absolutely critical in making science/engineering something worth
striving for. Hopefully we'll see some of this trickle down to our educational
systems in the near future.

~~~
nopinsight
It seems math textbooks in the US are 2-3 grade levels easier than those in
East Asia. SAT Math is considered a piece of cake even by non-top but good
students there. I heard Russian math is similarly rigorous.

This reduces the level of logical thinking skills most American children get
to practice from school. Programming well requires good abstract and logical
thinking which is easier to develop from a young age. Thus the US math
education may in effect reduce the chances of many people achieving their
potentials.

Tangentially, can someone knowledgeable shed light on why American math
curriculum is significantly easier than those in East Asia and Russia?

~~~
arkades
The 2-3 grade delta sounds about right. I was a good but not too math student
in (Eastern European) country before moving here. I Didn't have to open a math
book again for about 3 years. Most of my friends from the same generation of
immigrants would give the same number.

More was simply expected of us. Not "hoped for" or "aspired to", but expected.
And parents weren't at loggerheads with teachers; what teachers said was law.
So if a teacher said you were learning the multiplication table this week,
parents didn't argue it was too much, or encourage you to "do your best."
You'd be drilled on those times tables until you wanted to kill someone, but
you'd damn well be expected to have them memorized by the end of the week.

The idea that people were driven by good money is a western misinterpretation,
or whatever the cultural equivalent of anachronism is. My grandmother used to
scold my aunt for marrying an engineer instead of a tin knocker, like my
mother did, because tin knockers brought home the real money.

I think those two elements - expectations and parental cooperation - don't get
enough credit, by far.

~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
As someone who grew up in India, I can attest this about the education system
there too. This whole culture of parents always ready to come and fight with
teachers over the smallest things just didn't exist. Other than in
extraordinary circumstances, you gave the teacher and the system the benefit
of doubt.

If you were scolded by the teacher, there was a good chance you would get
another scolding back at home once your parents found out about the incident.

Unfortunately (or not?), through what seems to be a western influence, this is
slowly degrading.

~~~
kamaal
>>Other than in extraordinary circumstances, you gave the teacher and the
system the benefit of doubt.

This is changing or has changed in India. These days you can't do anything
much to the child, even if the child is clearly getting spoilt. Parents seem
to have very bloated egos these days.

The bad side effect of this is many teachers don't really have the same degree
of connect with their pupils these days. So its largely like - "What have I
too lose, should you get spoilt' mentality is getting common.

In a generation back during my parents's time, teachers were literally looked
up as very honorable and respectable. I even know of an incident which my
uncle told. He used to play a lot and was not good at studies, when he passed
examinations, my grandparents would go to the school and ask the teachers if
they gave their pupil a honest evaluation. They literally would be surprised
if he got a pass, and asked the teachers to be honest if had failed. Compare
this with parents today.

This reminds of a song in Hindi from the movie '3 idiots':

 _kandho ko kitabo ke boj pe jhukaya, rishwat dena to khud papa ne sikhaya_

------
vrutkovs
This article may have a point about poor state of basic computer education in
US, but its just blindly guesses the reasons on the topic of why so many
hackers are from ex-USSR countries. A pretty good level of CS doesn't help
here much - take a look at Europe, for instance.

The secret ingredient is a culture of cheating. Its absolutely fine to cheat
on any level of exam (unless you get caught, obviously). This makes students
think about the weak points of any system, gives them a chance to train their
skills etc. The side effect of this culture is much higher level of corruption
and financial crimes

~~~
coldtea
_The secret ingredient is a culture of cheating. Its absolutely fine to cheat
on any level of exam (unless you get caught, obviously). This makes students
think about the weak points of any system, gives them a chance to train their
skills etc._

Sorry, what? They are better at math because they cheat at exams, and thus
they "train" their minds?

That's not even wrong.

~~~
jabwork
I read this as the culture of cheating teaches analysis of the system
(education /testing) and how to identify weak points and exploit them

Then, using the same analytical skills, students are better prepared to
analyze other systems (eg security) and pinpoint/exploit their weakness

~~~
coldtea
> _I read this as the culture of cheating teaches analysis of the system
> (education /testing) and how to identify weak points and exploit them_

Still far fetched (and plain wrong -- it would work for all other "cultures of
cheating" too).

------
omot
I think the question we should really be asking ourselves is why so many
valuable tech companies hail from the US, specifically the bay area. Having
grown up in the Bay Area, there weren't any more special focus on mathematics
/ computer science in school, in fact we were encouraged to pursue whatever we
wanted to pursue. If we felt like we were bad at math, we weren't forced into
it, we should only pursue math if we really liked it. Most of my friends never
made it past pre-calc, yet top tech talent from Russia come to the US, and end
up working at wall street / silicon valley. Sergey Brin comes to mind. I don't
think we should really focus on improving our mathematician/hacker pipeline,
we should make sure we're cultivating a culture of freedom where people can
explore and pursue different fields of academics, and make sure there's no
barrier to talent working for us.

~~~
samangan
The origins of Silicon Valley being a technological hub go back all the way to
WWII and the economy of the early computer industry. So, I feel the USA being
an economic and military superpower is a pretty easy explanation for why
'Silicon Valley' exists in the bay area today and not somewhere else.
Obviously, there have been many years and many technological revolutions since
those early days but there are pretty clear trails of people, and money
leading all the way back.

As far as trying to answer why so many other countries consistently beat
America in math and technology I think a small answer can be gleaned from your
statement: "we were encouraged to pursue whatever we wanted to pursue." That
is not all that common in many countries and cultures in the world. I think a
lot of it has to do with economic or political desperation. I have worked with
people who learned how to code because they didn't even have running water in
their village in India and programming was a way out. Or more relevant to this
story, they lived in a Russian town and got a PhD in engineering so they could
come to America and be an engineer. These types of stories are very, very
common in the Bay Area. Looking at the education systems is helpful, but I
think you need a real driving force to get most people motivated to learn
difficult things.

~~~
omot
I'm not sure I could attribute the technology hub we see to WWII. Most
technology advancement in America was happening in Bell Labs during WWII (The
lab was located in New Jersey).

------
coldcode
In 1973 a female teacher (I think a teacher) at my high school got funding to
start a computer science (i.e. programming) class in my high school. We
learned to code in Basic and Fortran(interpreted!) on a teletype machine with
a paper tape reader, connected to some time sharing system, plus got industry
visitors and some field trips. Today I am a programmer because of this. If
someone can put that together back then you can do it now.

------
mc32
Lots of talent (technical universities, emphasis on science and maths in
general), undercompensation at local companies, and inability for
international police reach (extradition from RU for "cyber" crimes is not
routine).

So a nice opportunity for hackers so long as they don't bother the local state
and act outwardly.

------
kilroy123
I always thought it was because smart people who will become good programmers
are guaranteed to get a nice cushy job. (In the US) In Eastern Europe and
especially in Russia that isn't the case. Great cushy jobs are hard to come
by.

However, there's virtually unlimited opportunity doing shady things or hacking
for profit. I once even talked to a Russian developer about this in great
length. He came to the US for one such cushy job. I was pretty shocked about
how freely he talked about past "shady" jobs. He told me, yes he _could_ make
more money but he also didn't like being so unethical. So he came here to be
"legit".

------
0xbear
Russian-American here: in Russia you don't get to choose what to study,
mostly. Certainly not in middle or high school -- everyone studies the exact
same set of subjects. In college you don't get to choose individual subjects,
you choose the profession, and that comes with a set of courses already baked
in, some of which you'd never take on your own.

Whether you're good or not at something, that's something you cant discover
until you're pretty decent at it (see the Suzuki method), so you get exposure
to a pretty broad array of subjects, one of which is informatics. I have no
doubt this plays a role in exposing more kids to programming. I do not know
whether any of the kids make it to the top percentile of "talent". For me
(although this is 20+ years in the past) and the majority of my classmates,
high school informatics didn't do anything. I already knew vastly more than
the teacher, and had a computer of my own, a really shitty one, but it was a
computer. The teacher knew it too, so I was allowed not to come to the class,
and got "5"s (Russian version of "A"s) automatically.

One thing that definitely does help is that kids who suck at school are kicked
out after 9th (8th back then) grade, and are expected to get vocational
education, whereas those headed for college get 2 years of uninterrupted focus
on their math and science at a much higher level than the dumb kids could
handle. At least that's how it was with me. A group of us have (illegally)
hired our math and physics teachers to (get this!) study advanced material on
the weekends.

Now that I have a kid of my own, it's hard to even imagine that he would take
this kind of concern in his own affairs. He has everything, so he will
probably amount to nothing. There's no incentive. It's not "either you get
good at something, or you'll clean pig manure for the rest of your life"
dichotomy. It's more of a "play computer games all day, and then shake down
your parents for cash when you turn 18". Vastly different environment.

I would also like to point out, that top engineers almost invariably end up in
the West. Russia has the "oil curse" and the "management curse". The oil curse
is because in a country so rich with natural resources the taxation and
business environment are geared towards those wildly profitable companies, and
doing anything else doesn't make sense. The management curse is that managers
in Russia typically demand unconditional respect for authority and think they
should be much better compensated than an engineer. Both of those things are
something a top hacker will almost certainly have problems with. In the West,
you're more likely to be listened to and treated as an equal.

~~~
russellbeattie
I have a kid as well, and have the same exact thoughts about his future and
incentives - only I grew up in rural New England where it was, "get good at
something" or "become a logger for the papermill nearby that will probably
close in the next decade or so."

I would love for the US to have a viable vocational education path. So many
students in high school prepping for college who don't want to be there.

~~~
0xbear
If you think about it, _a lot_ of proverbial paper mills will close in the
next decade. Yet somehow it doesn't seem to sink in.

------
sr2
Too much emphasis on education and college in this article. Hacking requires
'thinking outside the box'; often called lateral thinking[0]. Formal education
in the subject of hacking is nice, but doesn't allow for the creative mind to
fully explore systems. There's a phrase:

    
    
       Don't Learn to Hack - Hack to Learn
    

In terms of earning money from hacking, there are tradeoffs made in both
whitehat and blackhat hacking. One noticeable tradeoff in blackhat hacking is
having no boss, and penetrating a system on your own terms. Whitehat hacking
might pay more and be more respectful and a nice little haven where you can
avoid jail, but it's often riddled with a rigid framework for getting into
systems and doesn't encourage the lateral thinking I previously mentioned.
Instead it's a corporate cubicle job where hacking is often automated and
routine.

On the other hand, there is grey hat hacking which many fall into at some
stage to strike a balance, and often balance criminality with a respectful
whitehat job that pays well.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_thinking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_thinking)

------
gottebp
Cold climates encourage indoor activities.

~~~
Lordarminius
Should be higher up

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aiw1nt3rs
you've heard the word 'hungry' before? ;)

desire/poverty + descent education system (especially in classic sciences) +
long history of political 'experimentation' in the area might explain the
phainomenon

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chaosagent
The article mentions an "AP Computer Science" curriculum that it claims does
not cover programming and is not actually APCS, but is instead AP Computer
Science Principles, an "intro to computers" for less stem-oriented students
that was introduced last year. The actual APCS curriculum mostly involves
learning basic programming constructs and some Java APIs, and is done solely
in Java.

Also, there used to be AP Computer Science B covering basic algorithms and
data structures, but CollegeBoard killed it because barely anyone took it.

------
maxxxxx
The devs from Russia I have worked with had a much better mathematical
foundation than people from germany or the US.

I have never gone to school in Russia but as far as math goes their schooling
seems much better

------
NumberSix
What is striking to me is that the table of AP tests taken (2016) in the
article clearly states:

Calculus AB 302,532 Calculus BC 118,707

for a total of 421,239 students taking this demanding technical subject and
exam in 2016 (one year). Undoubtedly, in this day and age of cheap readily
available computers with more power than a 1980's Cray supercomputer, most of
these students both have computers and have undoubtedly done lots of
programming whether they have taken AP Computer Science or not.

As for Microsoft, they have announced numerous layoffs of tens of thousands of
highly skilled engineers in the last few years, for example:

[http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-layoffs-
of-18000-empl...](http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-layoffs-
of-18000-employees-begin/)

Many in Finland which consistently ranks TOP in international ratings of
education, math, and science.

------
ivan_ah
As a STEM person, I like the STEM-makes-you-a-hacker angle of this piece, but
I think a more likely causation factor is the need for software piracy.

Most computer users in Eastern Europe do not pay for Windows. They download a
pre-cracked installed, or use a serial, or a crack or something. For an entire
generation or two, before you'd get access to a computer, you'd have to know
how to install a pirated OS on it. Same for all software and media. Piracy,
yes, piracy. Terrible, I know, but very motivating. If you learn how to use a
computer, you'll have access to stuff. If you don't, then no stuff.

But worry not, the Eastern Block is not about to take over the internet. The
stupefying site with the blue header has taken over mind share and now nobody
is learning anything about anything anymore, anywhere around the world,
equally.

------
tryitnow
> although there currently are just over 42,000 high schools in the United
> States, only 2,100 of them were certified to teach the AP computer science
> course in 2011.

This boggles my mind. Only 5% of high schools are even certified to teach CS?

I wonder if this could be addressed at the state level. Why couldn't
California mandate a more Russian style approach - perhaps even with an
entirely new exam and curriculum since the CS AP exam doesn't appear to cut
it.

Computer Science is just as important as language skills now, we need to start
acting like it.

~~~
jldugger
When I was in HS so many years ago, at a relatively affluent suburban high
school, AP CS was not offered. We had 2 single semester classes, basic and
advanced programming, taught in BASIC and C-style C++.

But they weren't AP certified classes, and frankly, I doubt they have the
money to recruit and retain instructors. The guidance counselors pretty much
told us not to take them back to back freshman year, because then you'd be out
of classes to take. Most of the students seemed to know more about programming
than the teacher, who was also responsible for teaching accounting.

Class period ends up being 10 minutes to do the day's programming assignment
and 50 minutes fucking around pen-testing the IT setup trying to run Duke
Nukem. One time the kid who's dad worked in district IT mentioned that "when
you forget your name badge when you show up for work at Disneyland, they give
you one that says 'Dale'. Browsing the global contact directory one day, I
came across an account, first name Dale, last name missing. A few guesses
later I discovered the password was di$ney, and Dale had quite a few drives
mapped it probably shouldn't, like one with the staff directory including home
addresses phone numbers and employee IDs.

So obviously the real reason Russia outdoes the US is that US targets are too
easy to hack ^_^

~~~
opportune
I think the problem is that for most people qualified enough to teach AP CS,
there are a lot more attractive jobs available to them outside of teaching (of
course, if they love teaching, they might not take them). I've had former math
teachers from HS who quit and did coding / data science programs so that they
could effectively double their salaries.

------
kuroguro
Russian culture - especially in business - is a lot more cutthroat than the
west. I would argue that it leads to more people picking up engineering skills
as it's one of the safest paths.

I'm probably biased but the thought "my life might not matter much but at
least my skills are in need" is pretty common here next to Russia's border.

------
kylehotchkiss
I was going to guess it has something to do with Russia's youth's relationship
with Video Games. thought they don't play lots of games or something. Then I
looked at wikipedia, with 5 sources stating how the biggest issue with video
games there is piracy[1]. Ethics aside, great way to learn your way around a
computer!

1:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_gaming_in_Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_gaming_in_Russia)

------
baybal2
Anybody want to make a mini-AMA with me here @_@ ?

------
dsfyu404ed
Sounds like job security for me.

