

US Immigration System Sucks, if you are a Founder  - sinzone
http://blog.mashape.com/us-immigration-system-sucks-if-you-are-a-foun-3

======
win_ini
The most frustrating thing about the imigration process to the US - is that
the US hasn't actually established WHO they ARE looking for.

A country needs to figure out what elements it wants to excel in (services,
manufacturing, high-tech, etc.) and then make policies that will drive people
towards those industries, regardless of where they are from.

The US system is rather agnostic (it seems equally hard for a day-labourer as
a top-notch scientist to get in) as a result - the people needed are difficult
to identify and woo into the country.

Canada has an interesting method to this - and is relatively open to
immigration: use a point system. (want to figure out YOUR score?:
<http://www.workpermit.com/canada/points_calculator.htm>

If you're a PHD, add 25 points - a high school grad? add 10 points...and so
on. In the end, the process is relatively transparent and helps potential
immigrants realize they are needed.

In the US, as part of the immigration process - they will go through intense
questioning on very relevant matters such as "Were you ever a member of the
communist party?" "Are you a terrorist?" - both questions were asked of me
dring the immigration process. But no one even asked if I had a high school
diploma....hmm.

~~~
aliston
I couldn't agree more... It's absolute lunacy that a student who has gone
through an engineering PhD program, subsidized by US taxpayers and
corporations via research grants, may not be able to stay in the US post-
graduation. There should be a direct means of converting a student visa into a
"path to citizenship." Instead, it appears our immigration system promotes the
exact opposite, giving preference to unskilled workers through an amnesty
every 10 years or so.

~~~
limist
The STAPLE Act was/is meant to address Ph.D. graduates of US
science/engineering schools, giving such a fast-track to permanent residence:

<http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-1791>

Not clear when/if it will become law though.

------
raju
I am not sure about the advice here. I am a H1-B holder, and here is what I
see wrong with his advice -

 _H1B: (the most popular) This Visa let you be hired from your company. So you
can be the CEO, CTO or a developer of your company. It lasts 5 years, then you
can extend it._

Not entirely true.

1\. The Visa is for 6 years (in 2 3-year segments). Furthermore, you can't
extend it unless you have legitimate reasons for it (for eg. if you are
waiting on your GC to be approved).

2\. It's very hard to be hired by your own company, especially for startups.
He does allude to this in his "Cons" section but there is more to it - For a
firm to hire a H1-B the business itself needs to prove that it actually has
such a need. Furthermore, its needs to prove it's own viability via a business
plan, a tax statement (that shows that it makes $x in revenues each year) etc.
The latter portion is hard for a startup - since they may not have any
revenues yet.

3\. The 5 year time range (for getting a GC) is random at best - It all
depends on the country of origin of the immigrant. People from certain
countries can enroll in the GC lottery process and potentially get lucky (I
have a friend who went this route). For most people from China/India it
usually is on an average 5-6 years (a EB-2 classificatio. EB-3 takes longer,
while EB-1 is usually very fast, but a very small portion of the population
can apply in that category)

4\. He's right about having the right salary. You need to pass labor
certification when getting a H1-B (or a GC for that matter). I don't know
enough about part-time H1-Bs so I can't comment on it

~~~
kareemm
_Furthermore, its needs to prove it's own viability via a business plan, a tax
statement (that shows that it makes $x in revenues each year) etc. The latter
portion is hard for a startup - since they may not have any revenues yet._

I was hired by the co-founder of my own startup (eduFire.com) in 2007 and
transferred my H1 from my old big corp to the startup.

Things may have changed since then, or the case might be different b/c it was
an H1 transfer, but our lawyer didn't need to provide a biz plan or tax
statement to get the H1 transferred.

~~~
mcdowall
Off topic...I've used your site before, only good experiences.

~~~
kareemm
hey, thanks! :)

------
_delirium
I think the main reason is that they don't have a good test for who's a bona-
fide founder or not: anyone can put up a website or release some iPhone apps
and claim they're running a tech startup and are in the process of trying to
monetize it. Who's going to read those business plans and filter for the legit
ones (and what does legit even mean; estimated likelihood of success?)? Hence
the buck-passing to someone else (VCs, angels, or revenue numbers, if you
successfully bootstrapped) to make the decision. If your startup's got enough
cash or revenues to pay you a salary above some threshhold, you're considered
a legit entrepreneur; otherwise, you're merely an "aspiring entrepreneur".

~~~
s-phi-nl
Couldn't one just ask them to incorporate a company? I know this is generally
better done later rather than sooner, but it is enough of a hassle that I
think it would be a reasonable indicator of commitment.

~~~
anamax
Incorporation can be done on-line for under $200. (I suspect that it can be
done for under $50.) That's not much of a committment.

~~~
sinzone
Actually an LLC is cheaper. But if you want an Inc. and apostille and setup an
EIN, etc it could cost $800

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ojbyrne
You can basically leave off the "if you are a Founder" in the title, and still
be accurate.

~~~
tgittos
Agreed. My fiancee and myself have been going through a K-1 visa since
January, and while it's nearly over, I still have to fly to another city to
get an interview before I get my visa.

As far as I'm aware, the K-1 visa is one of the fastest processed visas, and
it's been 7 months without making a single mistake. I'd hate to think how long
it would be on another visa, or worse, if we had made a mistake along the way.

~~~
Vivtek
Last time my wife renewed her green card it took them 16 months to process it
- and this is for an employed, property-owning, doctorate-holding, non-crime-
committing, citizen-parenting immigrant who's lived in the States for 15
years. I.e. a textbook rubber stamp. We had to get a special note to return
from our vacation because we'd only left a year for processing....

I've always taken the libertarian stance that open borders are the most
sensible way to run a country. More so since I've seen the ridiculous way the
immigration system is run.

~~~
tgittos
Yeah, I hear you about the note thing. If I even get into the US in time for
my wedding, I have to apply for permission to go on our honeymoon. We have to
plan two honeymoons, one in case I can get permission to leave and re-enter
the US, one if I can't.

As far as I'm concerned, US immigration controls only make life harder for
people who want to do the right thing. I've had plenty of chances to just
overstay a visa and not go home, but I chose to do the right thing, and as a
reward, I get to wait months without seeing my partner.

------
elblanco
The U.S. Immigration System Sucks, period. It's broken broken broken, out of
touch with reality, has the problem of being hard for legitimate users to use
and easy for illegitimate users to get around. It's basically DRM for borders.

~~~
jacquesm
That's a comment for the 'gems of HN'.

------
all
This is the case in pretty much every western country, afaik. The $250k limit
is also held by Germany. Other countries have floors of (I hope you're
sitting) 1 million currency units (pounds, etc.). Personally, I think they are
all misguided. But try to explain that to border control. In this vein, you
may find this post by Max Klein of interest: <http://maxkle.in/giving-up-on-
europe/>

~~~
patrickk
Could you link to an article where is says the minimum amount you need to
invest for the countries you mention? I live in Ireland and I've never heard
of these limits for the countries you mention.

Here's a link showing the minimum capital requirements for different nations:

<http://doingbusiness.org/documents/Simulator_2010.xls> (Excel Spreadsheet)

Some Examples:

    
    
      China - Overall Ease of Doing Business: 87th - Min. Capital to Start a Business(% income per capita): 130.9%
      Germany - Overall Ease of Doing Business: 25th - Min. Capital to Start a Business(% income per capita): 0%
      Ireland - Overall Ease of Doing Business: 7th - Min. Capital to Start a Business(% income per capita): 0%
      Singapore - Overall Ease of Doing Business: 1st - Min. Capital to Start a Business(% income per capita): 0%
      United Kingdom - Overall Ease of Doing Business: 5th - Min. Capital to Start a Business(% income per capita): 0%
      United States - Overall Ease of Doing Business: 4th - Min. Capital to Start a Business(% income per capita): 0%
    

Granted, the rules may be (somewhat/drastically) different for non-citizens,
but imposing extremely high minimum capital limits (if it's true) is very
stupid economically.

~~~
anigbrowl
I'm from Ireland myself, and it is indeed different for non-nationals; eg
Ireland requires E300,000 a credible business plan, and ability to hire at
least 2 people. <http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP09000012>

It is sort of stupid economically, but then the other side of the coin is that
government don't want to be accused of selling visas or try to evaluate micro-
businesses proposed by people who might or might not be actual entrepreneurs.
Protip: being a professional writer or artist of any standing makes living in
Ireland much, much easier.

~~~
patrickk
I had no idea of the 300k limit...that's crazy high. I guess most people who
immigrate are from within the EU so it's less of an issue.

 _"being a professional writer or artist of any standing makes living in
Ireland much, much easier."_ \- unless you are U2!

ps. there is a Ruby Ireland meetup in Cork in 2 days if you are in the
area...no prerequisites, very informal, all welcome ;-)

<http://www.hackernewsers.com/meetups/2.html>

~~~
anigbrowl
Yes. Procuring a student visa would be far easier and more affordable for
startup founders interested in working in Ireland, as far as I can tell.

re. meetup, I live in the US now, and unfortunately my relatives in Ireland
aren't programmers - but thanks for the invite!

~~~
patrickk
That's funny, I'm trying to land a job Stateside, so I can secure a H1-B,
hopefully progress to a Green Card so I can do a startup! Small world! There's
certainly much less opportunities and talent over here. Most young smart
people don't see startups as a viable and rewarding career
opportunity....which is a real shame.

------
dgudkov
_You can't have salary nor be hired even by your own company_

Why to look for being directly paid by US company? Why not to establish local
company and outstaff yourself to it? It's even possible to save on taxes in
some cases. Getting B1 visa is not so complex and it allows to stay in US long
enough to hold all crucial meetings and then return in 3-6 months.

Yes, this approach has a lot of inconveniences. But it's much more doable than
knocking on the closed door.

------
will_critchlow
I wish we could at least have the attitude in the UK that talented people
coming to your country is a good thing... During our last national elections
the hyperbole against any kind of immigration was astounding to me (as someone
who employs and has employed people from around the world).

------
stretchwithme
The world is full of creative, hardworking people that benefit everyone they
interact with.

Please don't let any more of these type of people in. Its too good here
already.

------
eduardo_f
The OP forgot to mention the F1 Visa (student visa). I'm starting my company
on F1.

------
c00p3r
Does all Fedora/FreeBSD/Apache Foundation and thousands other project's
contributors all sitting in the office cubicles in US?

Isn't it's a time to realize that there is no need to relocate into US,
moreover, it is, perhaps, much better to work with US-bound project but to
live, say, in India, Thailand, Nepal and other clean and friendly places..

Isn't a entire history of emergence and development of Linux kernel (and
related OSes) is a self-evident case study?

------
cypherpunk1
Of course U.S. Immigration sucks for founders. You don't think we're actually
pro sensible-immigration, do you? The U.S. Immigration system is about
importing cheap labor (which is why Republicans support it) and NAMs to
replace whites (which is why Democrats support it).

50% of the children in born in the U.S. today are Black or Hispanic.

Unless you know of a way to fix all the problems in Black and Hispanic
populations that seem to keep them from having any significant presence in
professions requiring an education or IQs over 120 (and we've tried to fix
those problems for 150 years now), the U.S. will be Brazil in 20-30 years.

Educational reform has moved the Black-White gap maybe 1/5th of a standard
deviation over the last several decades. And that was the easy part. Honestly,
the rest is probably genetic, and simply won't budge even if you turn the
public schools into sharashkas.

Good luck, all. The demographic ball is too big to stop now, even if every
state turned into Arizona tomorrow. The moving hand has written. Enjoy your
bowls of red.

P.S.

If you are now busily writing me 50 reasons why the black-white gap isn't
genetic, don't bother. That was an aside and irrelevant to the central point.
What matters is that it's something that seems impossible to shift with
current methods even when vast resources sluice against the problem over many
years. And you only have 20-30 years to come up with a solution. Smart money
is way against you.

~~~
Keile
You make a bunch of generalizations here without supporting evidence,
especially with regards to the Black-White gap. Differences exist in and
between (recognized) ethnic groups and are enforced by strict social phenomena
(slavery for dark skins; liberty for lights). If we eliminated the entire
historically privileged white middle and upper class from America, this would
render the remainder of the population with much of the same social problems
that plague the Black and Hispanic communities today. In this case, after a
few generations the "gap" would very likely be as good as gone.

However, what this, and your comments in particular, have to do with
immigration as it relates to Founders is beyond me. Your post basically just
degenerates into one of those racialist garbage tediums (see paraphrase:"we've
tried to fix blacks for 150 years"; slavery was abolished in 1865; segregation
in the 60s; one can't right wrongs by not actually doing anything about them)
that litter much of the white supremacist blogosphere nowadays. Hispanics, I
might understand some frustration to do specifically with immigration, but
what the state of Black America has to do with regards to Founder immigration
I cannot discern.

Your tangent on how Blacks and Hispanics, two disadvantaged but otherwise
tasteful groups, are figuratively destroying America is an example of
practiced misdirection.Neither of these two groups objectively stand in the
way of adjusting immigrations practices to allow more Founders.Hence your
entire rant exposes itself as racist fear mongering drivel written by a
someone with very little to say on the germane issue at hand.

~~~
cypherpunk1
_after a few generations the "gap" would very likely be as good as gone._

lulz

~~~
Keile
The gap would already be dramatically reduced to within inches rather than
metres. In effect it would be gone, although it would very literally be so if
culture and conditions were rectified in a way that hasn't yet been tried in
the United States over the past "150 years" (as if anything substantive was
done in this time whatsoever). Of course, you can always disagree and argue
from the basis of genetic determinism, but we all know the evidence for that
is inconclusive and your "thinking" that it isn't won't make it anymore real.

Oh, and just to make clarion your intellectual dishonesty, what does all of
this have to do with Founder immigration? Nothing. What is it really about?
Probably racism.

Have a nice day.

