
To End Soccer Riots, Brazilian Club Forces Fans to Sit Next to Rivals - bdehaaff
http://www.fastcoexist.com/3047102/to-end-soccer-riots-this-brazilian-club-forces-fans-to-sit-next-to-rivals#2
======
Sanddancer
Beautifully done. Break down the norms of having the fans shouting at a
muddied "them," and possibly start some good long-lasting friendships. I also
think that Recife's idea of having mothers of troublemakers, as was linked to
[1] is also a pretty clever way of keeping things from getting out of hand. It
is rather heartening to see new ways of enforcing civility that aren't based
around the use of force.

[1] [http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/brazilian-soccer-club-
dep...](http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/brazilian-soccer-club-deploys-fans-
mums-to-stop-violence-20150210-13ag2k.html)

~~~
walshemj
Oh dear I can't see this ending well most country's teams that have "ultras"
and high levels of violence - there is an underlying political and in some
cases religious tradition gong back in some cases 100's of years.

~~~
dmckeon
For a dark perspective on this sort of issue (UK, not SA):
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Among_the_Thugs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Among_the_Thugs)

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tiagotalbuquerq
As a brazilian citizen, I can clarify the hidden reality in this article.

Gremio (Blue Team) and Internacional (Red Team) are teams from the most rich
and evolved region of Brazil. The people of the south descend from germans and
italians. They love those soccer teams and the culture is grow up with their
"rivals"... brothers, cousins, etc, cheering for different teams. It was
possible due to cultural reasons, not due to an "experiment".

In Sao Paulo, Southeast region, the culture is not like that, and the favelas
and poor neighborhoods have their own criminal factions associated with
"organised fan clubs".

Its incentivized, the fans from different teams can't mix up in any place,
metros, streets, stadiums... We see deaths everyday, people pushing rivals
from metro's windows (causing their deaths)

You can't put people of Palmeiras, Sao Paulo, Corinthias (the worst case)
together.

~~~
PauloManrique
I'm sorry, but your comment is misleading and spread some things that are not
true at all.

The only factor on the match between Gremio and Internacional was the "gaucho
pride", "we'll set an example for the rest of the country". They are
nationalists and the marketing guy played well with that. Remember the chorus
on their state anthem: "Serve our achievements as example for the whole
Earth".

About Sao Paulo clubs, you said about Corinthians as "the worst case", which
is far from the truth. Organized supporters from Palmeiras and Sao Paulo are
way more violent, their fan clubes presidents were arrested several times,
most of them accused by murder, even during carnival.

So please, if we want to help non brazilians to understand our reality, we got
do it with facts.

------
personlurking
In Recife (NE Brazil), they hired fans' mothers to 'police' the fans.

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2959929/Brazilian-
fo...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2959929/Brazilian-football-
club-hires-mothers-stewards-bid-curb-violence-matches.html)

------
guiambros
Brilliant! Funny enough, that's the teams from my hometown. Had no idea they
were doing this.

I haven't gone to a match since I was a kid, but remember the constant fights.
These are the two main teams in that state, which made rivalry more intense.
More than winning, you just wanted for your rivals to lose.

------
mickgardner
In Australia this (fans of different teams sitting with each other instead of
separate) has been normal for AFL (Australian Football League) matches since
forever. It creates an atmosphere of friendly rivalry and discussion amongst
people sitting near each other instead of animosity. You commonly get some
quite funny and friendly banter going on between rival supporters.

~~~
zimpenfish
Pretty normal for UK Rugby too. I've been the only away supporter sat in the
middle of several hundred home supporters without incident (apart from some
gentle mockery as we meekly capitulated.)

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leeuwnhawk
One of the reasons why this would work is that you'd need to befriend a rival
spectator before you enter the arena for the match just to get entry inside
the stadium. Spending some time with a rival spectator would make one realize
that even the rival team's supporters are football fans too at the end of the
day. Great initiative !

~~~
_puk
This has been working for years in Rugby. The next World Cup won't be
segregated either [1].

It makes for a much friendlier environment. Being able to banter with the
opposing supporters prevents frustration, and I'm sure is fairly self
regulating.

Complete opinion, but throwing abuse at the other side is far more likely to
reach fever pitch(..) when everyone around you is shouting the same way. If
half of those around you are shouting back that, no, it's you that's the
idiot, then it'll come to a natural head far quicker and less violently.

[1] [http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/may/06/fans-not-
segreg...](http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/may/06/fans-not-
segregated-2015-rugby-world-cup)

------
great_kraken
That's cool.

As someone who doesn't follow sports, or anything that I'm purely a
nonparticipant in, it baffles me how much people can care about stuff like
this, especially enough to injure another human being. It's a crazy thing that
it does to the human mind.

~~~
thret
"Assembled in a crowd, people lose their powers of reasoning and their
capacity for moral choice. Their suggestibility is increased to the point
where they cease to have any judgment or will of their own. They become very
excitable, they lose all sense of individual or collective responsibility,
they are subject to sudden accesses of rage, enthusiasm and panic. In a word,
a man in a crowd behaves as though he had swallowed a large dose of some
powerful intoxicant. He is a victim of what I have called 'herd-
poisoning.'"[1]

[1] [http://reasontostand.org/archives/2011/01/19/aldous-
huxley-o...](http://reasontostand.org/archives/2011/01/19/aldous-huxley-on-
propaganda-and-why-we-fall-for-it-2)

Also, for historical interest the blue-green riots in Rome:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots)

~~~
kitd
See also Deindividuation:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation)

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bechampion
I'm South American , been going to games all my life , the people in the
pictures aren't the "problematic" supporters... this is pure and utter bs

------
ape4
Next, a solution to the Middle East crisis.

~~~
BasDirks
There (and elsewhere) certain parties on both sides do not want a solution.
They owe their existence and power to the problem.

~~~
ape4
I agree. But maybe the people who really want peace can arrange something like
this.

------
fkurkowski
I happen to have attended this game and both the article and the video ad are
not only misleading but also untruthful. Basically, there was just a small
sector (< 10%) of the stadium where fans from both clubs were side by side.

Also, no one was forced to sit next to rivals as they are claiming. Fans of
the away team had to be invited by a supporter of the home team in order to
join the mixed sector.

Although it was a great initiative, they are trying to make it seem way bigger
than it really was.

------
ewindisch
Will this really work long-term, or is it a short-term disruption? I know that
in the NFL (American Football), fans are always integrated, but may become
very violent. This is particularly true when there are rivalries of teams in
close geographic distance allowing large numbers of fans from both teams to be
in attendance. For example, games between the Philadelphia Eagles and NY
Giants may be particularly dangerous.

~~~
dpeck
If anything college football is worse. Rivalries there run deep, nearly as
long as gridiron football has been played in many cases, and often come with
family ties.

Combine that with its popularity in the south and the combination of honor
culture and largely being dumbasses and theres almost always some fights
before/during/after a big rivalry game in the ares where a visiting fan is
close to or surrounded by the home team.

That said, its nothing like soccer riots.

~~~
bbarn
I've only been to college games at Notre Dame and VT, and both of those are
very segregated stadiums. There's an entire "student" section, a "visiting
team" section, and tickets are sold like that.

~~~
dpeck
Thats right, the edges of sections or when a visitor finds himself surrounded
by home fans is when things tend to get interesting. But again, its miniscule
compared to soccer riots, usually one or two guys who have had too much start
a conflict and security usually gets them out before anyone even pushes.

------
trequartista
Maybe their neighbors should also take note of this -
[http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/boca-juniors-
vs-...](http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/boca-juniors-vs-river-
plate-5700462)

------
havill
The interesting thing is that in Japan, for baseball, they forcibly separate
the home fans and the visitor fans into separate areas. And the cheering is
relegated so each side has the opportunity to cheer (while they politely stay
quite when it's the other side's turn).

------
ekianjo
Just like the best way to promote integration of immigrants to have them live
among "natives" and not put them in ghettos. Same principle at work, make them
realize that they are not so different and they should both respect each
other's.

------
serve_yay
How do they figure out which people are the fans and which are the rivals?

~~~
diego_moita
By the shirts, see the video.

Porto Alegre has 2 big teams, fierce rivals. The Internacional dresses in red,
the Grêmio dresses in light blue.

------
davnicwil
First sentence..

> In soccer-obsessed Brazil, going to a match means a chance to see some of
> the best players in the world—and face the possibility of getting beaten up
> or even killed.

To say nothing of the sweeping stereotypes here there's also a glaring
inaccuracy. Sorry, but by most definitions of 'best players in the world' this
is simply false, sadly.

Brazil is perhaps the best example of a country that consistently produces
world-class players yet struggles to keep them playing in their domestic
league. The best players mostly all go to European clubs.

~~~
ashwinaj
As a football (soccer) fan myself, this is one of the things I hate about the
hyperbolic media; not withstanding the blatant ignorance of not knowing that
none of the top players play in the Brazilian league. Possibility of being
beaten or being killed? Gimme a break. Sure there is the occasional riot,
hooliganism etc. but you're more likely to die or get injured in a car
accident than at a stadium. I'm not belittling the fact that these things
happen, it's just the hyperbole that I'm amazed at. I don't see the equivalent
reaction when there is trouble in the inner cities, which in essence is same
on principle.

------
makeitsuckless
Ridiculous measure that destroys the fundamental atmosphere of football and
reduces supporters to American style spectators.

Not surprised football haters and Americans (where active support has been
removed from the equation anywhere but in college football) here love this.

------
briandear
Why are soccer riots even a thing? Soccer leads the world in fan tomfoolery.
Of course I guess after spending 90 minutes and having a game end with a 1-1
tie, I'd riot too.

~~~
walshemj
Religious , Sectarian, Anti Semitism, Political take your pick

~~~
sehr
Yeah, the biggest rivalries are typically rooted in some pretty heavy stuff

------
capedcanaveral
I don't understand how this article belongs on Hacker News.

~~~
msandford
Because it's the classic definition of a "hack", it's a clever solution to an
ugly problem. Not everything on HN has to be about javascript frameworks or
making millions on startups. It's called "hacker news" not "san francisco tech
startup echo chamber news".

~~~
tedks
How is this a hack? This is ridiculously old psychology. Here's the same
"hack" from the 50's:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigsaw_%28teaching_technique%2...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigsaw_%28teaching_technique%29)

Just because people on the san francisco tech startup echo chamber news site
aren't familiar with it doesn't make it novel, clever, etc..

Or should I just post the jigsaw classroom wikipedia link or a link to the
original paper and rake in the upvotes?

~~~
prof_hobart
If upvotes are what float your boat, and others are interested in the article,
then why not?

As for the "it's been done before" bit - hacking is often about applying an
idea from one area into another area.

~~~
tedks
But this is not applying an idea from one area to another area -- it's taking
the pre-existing idea and just applying it again. There isn't any novelty
here.

