
Don't waste your money on lawyers - jaf12duke
http://www.humbledmba.com/hire-the-very-best-lawyer-and-save-your-money
======
crikli
I'm cringing in anticipation of the downvoting, but I can't help myself here:
this is TERRIBLE advice. Absolutely egregiously awful.

The consultation of a good (that qualifier is important) attorney is worth
every single penny. He/she will save you from making terrible mistakes like
adopting the wrong corporate form, creating contracts that don't protect you
and expose you to liability, signing off on contracts that you shouldn't...I
could go on and on.

$9,000 is a paltry sum relative to the risk that was averted by having a
professional get things done right. Yes, by all means, read up on the sites
linked in the OP and exercise due diligence in understanding what you're
getting yourself into, but find other places to cut your budget. Don't skimp
on having good legal and good accounting. These people pay for themselves many
times over.

Furthermore, if the OP spent this money prior to having code written, the bad
decision was in the order the money was spent, not in the way it was spent.

On a side note, and this is really what I'm expecting the downvotes for: I
question the judgement of anyone who finances their operation with credit card
debt, especially a relatively small sum like $12K. If you can't save that
money over time by getting slim with your personal budget, you are probably in
for a world of hurt caused by an upside down balance sheet. Debt is not your
friend, despite what "sophisticated" people tell you.

~~~
_delirium
Aren't you assuming that the average lawyer will, in fact, give better advice
than can be gleaned through self-research? It's not inconceivable that for a
number of routine things, the average advice is not likely to be any better
(and possibly worse) than you'd get by reading a standard introductory text on
the subject, and using one of the standard boilerplate contracts, after having
read and understood standard advice written by a respected authority in the
area, on what they each do and how to choose between them. This is
particularly the case because the _average_ lawyer is not grellas. =]

(As the other branch of this thread discusses, I agree that contract _review_
is a different matter; in that case, you want someone who's familiar enough at
pattern-matching to spot unusual things or possible pitfalls. But reviewing
contracts proposed by other people is one specific kind of lawyer-
consultation.)

~~~
3am
He said a good lawyer, not an average one. If one cannot tell the difference
when choosing between a good and an average (or worse) attorney, then there is
very little chance that they will do an adequate job with self-research,
either.

~~~
khafra
What's the difference in cost between learning to discriminate between good
lawyers and bad lawyers, and learning to avoid egregious legal errors on your
own?

~~~
tptacek
Having watched the back on forth on many contract reviews, "just DIY the
contract review" is perilously bad advice. Thankfully, nobody gave it. You
_can_ DIY your company formation; the biggest risk you run is that you'll
botch equity structure, but a lot of people don't care about that issue right
away.

~~~
_delirium
IP and liability type stuff is another one I'd probably DIY, at least early
on. I have a small sample size (and have never hired a lawyer for that purpose
myself), but everyone I know who's hired an lawyer for early-stage consulting
on IP or liability risks more or less paid money to hear back, "everything
you're doing is probably illegal, oh and you should plaster disclaimers
everywhere".

Part might be a product/purchaser mismatch. I think what most people want on
such issues is not purely legal advice, but integrated
legal/business/technical advice, where someone who might primarily be a
lawyer, but is _also_ knowledgeable in the other areas, gives you balanced
advice on how to mitigate your legal risks, within the technical and business
constraints you also face. But people with such knowledge are fairly rare (and
expensive), so it's more common to get very conservative legal advice that
just points out that your product or service is a legal minefield (as most
are).

------
bittermang
It is like saying that it is a waste of money to hire an electrician to rewire
your house. There is enough free information on the internet.

Is there? Sure. But your lack of experience and knowledge on the topic could
still lead you to electrocuting yourself. Similarly, so could hiring a bad
electrician. But the safer bet is with the man whose trade is in working with
electric and wiring.

And when financial liability, your livelihood, and matters of the law are on
the line, the safer bet is with the man whose trade is in the law.

~~~
_delirium
What about, say, car maintenance/repair? Plenty of hackerly types work on
their own cars, despite the fact that a mistake could potentially be fatal,
and there are professionals who specialize in the field.

~~~
bittermang
I would say that only supports the argument.

I knocked the passenger side mirror off of my car on a pole. $30 and some time
later, I had a new mirror installed.

Conversely, I had a power window motor burn out and seize up while the window
was going down. I was able to get the door panel off, but all the bolts to
remove the motor/window assembly were on the inside of the door. I had the
directions and the knowledge to continue to remove the door and remove the
motor, but I did not feel capable and I didn't really have the tools to
properly proceed. Failure meant a bunch of broken glass in my drive way, or
worse my car would only have three doors. So I took it to a mechanic and he
fixed it in an afternoon.

To reapply all of this to the topic: some legal stuff you can handle if you
have the knowledge and feel equipped to move forward. Privacy policies are a
good example, as would be government regulations like CAN-SPAM, which are
pretty well documented and explained. But as matters of legality grow in
scope: articles of incorporation, anything tax related, or something like the
DMCA, I personally would not continue without legal council.

------
duopixel
Also, don't ever ask lawyers if there's any liability in your interface. I
once had a lawyer loving client who wanted to create a social site, he
consulted with his lawyer and he came back to us asking that _every single
piece of the interface where you could share information should have a
disclaimer_.

So under every comment box, every _I like it button_ , every photo upload
there's a "I hereby grant permission to share my opinion with this site. View
privacy policy".

------
mikeryan
Don't _waste_ your money on attorneys. Use it wisely. A good attorney is
critical for anyone dealing with client contracts and it would be foolhardy
for anyone to deal with major corporate clients with nothing but boilerplate
contract. Especially if you're getting contracts to sign. (Along those lines
get a good Errors And Omissions insurance policy)

Doing a startup? Talk to attorneys who specialize in this kind of thing. When
I was just _thinking_ about doing a startup I met with some folks at Orrick
(big, big firm) who offered to do the first 10k in services for a small equity
stake. An offer like this could have saved the authors ass. They also know
everyone who means anything and are a great way to meet the right folks. If
they introduce you to your first angel wouldn't it be worth it?

------
larrys
For reference, see:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sosumi>

Agree. In business you will never have enough money or time to do everything
right. There are risks in business and managing those risks is a skill that is
learned over time. And decisions that need to be made are not digital they are
analog in nature. They depend on many factors and different circumstances.
Lawyers don't give business advice and everything they do is colored by the
bias and fears they have.

In general lawyers are going to be CYA about everything like you mother and
father.

Many successful business people and companies play loose and fast and, after
making enough money, are able to dig themselves out of any mess they have made
or risk they have taken (BP and Exxon are just two examples. And Apple). It
all depends.

------
yason
Obviously to avoid wasting your money you'd have to find a good lawyer. As
many people have asked, how do you know a good lawyer from a bad lawyer?

Recommendations? That'll only work so far.

Price? Indirect indicator.

If I don't know much about the relevant law myself, then how would I know if
he's any good? If I have to take the time to educate myself, then again I'll
be doing his work.

This sort of legal stuff like setting up a company isn't exactly rocket
science; it's a form of administration practiced against commonly known rules
and the idea is not to deviate too much from what everyone else is doing to
play safe. It's something that could, probably for 90% of cases, be done by
some sort of a Create Company wizard tool that yields legally sensible
outcomes. There are only so many legally relevant configurations of a new
startup.

------
bluesmoon
The best legal investment I ever made was $400 on Law 101 at Stanford. It
doesn't turn you into a lawyer, but it teaches you to look at things from a
legal perspective, and understand the risks involved with everything you do
(seriously, even stepping out of your front door) and think about what you
could do to reduce them.

To paraphrase our professor on criminal law, if you stop to think about it,
it's actually impossible to get through the day without breaking the law.

------
sireat
The point to take away from the article is to budget some money for a lawyer
to draft/consult on crucial documents, but do not use him for all minutiae.

Lawyers will usually adopt a better safe than sorry attitude. At a startup,
this might not be exactly what you want.

Second, great laywers are just like great programmers, not that easy to find
and qualify.

------
rkon
' _Use your lawyer efficiently to avoid wasting money_ ' would be a better
fitting title.

The comments that have been posted so far lead me to believe no one actually
read the full post. He's not trying to tell people lawyers are all a waste of
money.

~~~
scott_s
You are correct, but he earned this poor discussion by using a link-bait
title.

