
Trent Reznor says YouTube is “built on the backs of free, stolen content” - dismal2
http://www.factmag.com/2016/06/15/trent-reznoryoutube-built-on-the-backs-of-free-stolen-content/
======
Cuuugi
I agree with Gabe Newell's stance on piracy.

"We think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost
always a service problem and not a pricing problem," he said. "If a pirate
offers a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the
convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product
is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the US release, and
can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate's service
is more valuable."

[http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114391-Valves-
Gabe...](http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114391-Valves-Gabe-Newell-
Says-Piracy-Is-a-Service-Problem)

~~~
overcast
This is exactly right. Steam single-handedly revived the entire PC gaming
market. A simple to use interface, that has your entire collection /
achievements / whatever, that can be accessed from anywhere, without screwing
around with keys. That's why it works.

~~~
jdc
Is there anything that iTunes could learn from Steam?

~~~
agnuacc
Support Linux.

I want an iPhone, but I can't even sync music libraries with my Linux desktop.

So I'm stuck with Android.

~~~
tyrust
Probably not worth it. By Valve's measure [0], 0.84% of Steam users are on
Linux. They have made the investment into Linux support toward the promotion
of their own Linux based hardware. Apple has no such incentive.

Does iTunes not run well enough in Wine [1]?

I say this all as a frequent user of Steam on Linux and a nonuser of iTunes.

[0] -
[http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey](http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey)

[1] -
[https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=applicatio...](https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=1347)

------
unfocused
I wonder what has changed his mind since he was a member of Oink, a UK torrent
site aimed at music. The (very brief) article mentions it.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oink%27s_Pink_Palace#Notable_u...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oink%27s_Pink_Palace#Notable_users)

~~~
clydethefrog
Oink was not a business. Oink was an invitation-only BitTorrent community.
Reznor even has a relevant quote in the Wikipedia article you linked:

"they're not stealing it because they're going to make money off of it;
they're stealing it because they love the band"

Meanwhile, YouTube is a business, it displays ads for stolen content and
everyone has easy access to it.

~~~
Programmatic
Thanks for posting this, it's easy to forget the distinction between the two.
I was just thinking that it's awful inconsiderate to have a stance against
piracy given that he himself literally asked people to pirate his music, but
there is a difference between people sharing information vs. a platform
monetizing it.

------
Reason077
Is it, though? In my experience YouTube (or is it the copyright owners?) are
quite aggressive about scanning for unauthorised music and removing it - to
the point where you actually have to be careful about things like having the
radio on in the background during a video.

In fact, they even provide tools to help you fix videos that have audio
copyright claims against them...

[https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2902117?hl=en](https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2902117?hl=en)

~~~
rayiner
That's relatively recent. The early popularity of Youtube was built on
offering streaming access to other peoples' content for free.

~~~
magicalist
> _That 's relatively recent_

It's at least 7 years old[1] and the system itself (if not the name) is almost
9 years old[2]. That's not recent relative to just about anything.

[1] [https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/01/youtubes-january-
fair-...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/01/youtubes-january-fair-use-
massacre)

[2] [https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2007/10/youtubes-copyright-
fil...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2007/10/youtubes-copyright-filter-new-
hurdle-fair-use)

~~~
whatok
Would Youtube even exist if it had to have something like Content ID when it
first launched? Its existence definitely took advantage of the relative
lawlessness of the web back then. Don't see much difference between how
Youtube established vs Uber/AirBnB as far as break shit and pay for it later
goes.

------
lucideer
> It’s a markedly different opinion from when a 2007 pre-Apple Reznor said the
> iTunes store made him feel “uncool” (“[it] feels like Sam Goody to me”) and
> admitted he was a frequent user of the file sharing website OiNK.

Whatever your views on his statements are, this comparison is fallacious. He's
called YouTube disingenuous for building a business on the back of stolen
content. OiNK can neither be accused of disingenuity, nor of building a
business.

~~~
csours
Thats easy to say if your business model fails (generally).

~~~
lucideer
Perhaps in some cases, but since OiNK was a donation-funded community,
administered by an unincorporated individual (Alan Ellis), I can't think that
this is particularly relevant here.

------
WalterBright
Laws that try to stop people from getting what they want in what they perceive
as victimless are doomed to fail, no matter how punitive the enforcement.
Examples:

prostitution, gambling, drugs, books, music, video

~~~
spriggan3
> prostitution, gambling, drugs, books, music, video

Prostitution and drugs are hardly victim-less.

~~~
jknightco
Both can absolutely be victimless. I would argue that the biggest reason they
aren't victimless more often is because they're both crimes in most countries.

------
tsunamifury
So was the iPod. Products are built on the back of what people want and its a
very tough row if you want to go against that.

~~~
genghisjahn
Funny you mention the iPod. Back when music companies were getting eaten alive
by mp3s and napster, Apple didn't seem to care as much. Their slogan was Rip
Mix Burn.

"And the electronics industry's attitude toward the labels is summed up by an
Apple slogan: Rip. Mix. Burn. Which, a music executive once told me,
translates into "Fuck you, record labels."

[http://www.wired.com/2003/02/dirge/](http://www.wired.com/2003/02/dirge/)

~~~
drzaiusapelord
Rip meant taking physical audio CD's you own and migrating them to mp3.

The slogan wasn't Download Mix Burn. Apple has always been strong on the IP
end of things.

~~~
extra88
Right but after "Rip" is "Mix," i.e. create a playlist of different tracks,
then "Burn," burn them to a disc (as an Audio CD or a data disc with MP3 or
AAC files). Since it's the the 00's version of making a mix tape, that burnt
disc is probably going to someone who didn't buy the CDs in the first place,
i.e. copyright infringement by distributing works without permission.

The British record industry in the Eighties had a "home taping is killing
music" campaign, the could've updated it to "home burning is killing music."

------
overcast
Well yeh, I thought this was pretty common knowledge at this point.

~~~
kolbe
And not at all isolated to youtube

~~~
overcast
No, but the early success of YouTube was due entirely to pirated
movies/videos.

------
guyzero
_Apple employee_ Trent Reznor...

~~~
sandis
Doesn't make it any less true

------
1_2__3
I'm sure then that he paid for and licensed all his NBK samples, Star Wars
samples, Prince samples, and Queen, and David Bowie, and Kiss, and and and.

~~~
k-mcgrady
If these are samples he used in commercial tracks I'm sure he licensed them
because if he didn't he'd have been sued out of existence by now.

~~~
dri_ft
Things were different in the eighties. I think the precedent-setting anti-
sampling lawsuits came about in the early nineties. The Beastie Boys album
Paul's Boutique was famously built from hundreds of unlicensed samples, and
was one of the last albums that could be made that way, because shortly
thereafter it became necessary to license samples.

------
splawn
As if he should criticize about being built from stolen content. Watch "young
gods envoye" from the 80's then watch Reznor's "broken", which was produced
many years later... and I recommend using youtube to do it.

~~~
corysama
If he copy-pasted audio or video from Envoye you'd have an argument. There's
no copyright on style.

~~~
splawn
You are correct. Perhaps this is OT, but I have 100% respect for youtube as a
useful service that I use every day even if its due to something illegal. In
contrast, I have very little respect for any artist that bites their style
wholesale from another artist esp if they have a successful career from
it...even if it is legal to do so.

------
incongruity
Much of the internet is built from free things. If we really want to talk
about inequity of rewards for effort expended[1], I think content producers
need to get in a long line...

[1] The difference, of course, is that many of the free resources were given
away by license. However, at the end of the day, very little compensation has
gone to many people who have built critical, foundational parts of the
infrastructure that has fueled billions of dollars in revenue for companies
world wide. On some level, hearing a musician who _has_ been compensated,
significantly, for their work complain about inequities kind of makes me
laugh.

------
draw_down
Yeah, and it kicks the shit out of every offering the RIAA and their pals come
up with. Funny how that works.

------
dwaltrip
Personally, I find it not at all obvious that artists "deserve" to be paid for
any use of their "intellectual property".

Hell, I don't even find the concept of physical property to be
straightforward. Almost every single physical object we have in our lives
today is built off the work and ideas of countless millions and billions of
people before us. So the objects in our lives that we "own" and have "earned",
in reality, were earned and produced by large swaths of humanity over
thousands of years.

Now, how do we reconcile this with the fact that I'm still standing here,
holding the object in my hand, and "no, I definitely would not like to give it
to you, thank you very much". That seems incredibly tricky. And then of course
there is the fact the concept of property ownership does incentive huge
amounts of innovation and productivity. So we don't want to ruin that. I'll
have to continue thinking about this another day...

------
jinushaun
I thought YouTube was built on the backs of videos of cats and stupid human
tricks.

------
vthallam
Well, which video site is not? Youtube's DMCA responses are really good,
compared to FB or any other video platform.

~~~
k-mcgrady
>> "Youtube's DMCA responses are really good, compared to FB or any other
video platform."

Yes but they only started doing that after they became the go-to site for
videos. If they didn't allow copyrighted materials from the beginning it never
would have become the behemoth it is and more than likely would've died before
it had a big enough audience to entice copyright owners to strike deals with
it.

------
tomclancy
Most video sites are. From eBaumsWorld to Facebook Video.

------
Karunamon
Another irrelevant 90s musician making bombastic comments about copyright,
another day.

~~~
tikumo
Yeah but this musician provides free downloads of his music and high quality
garage band files for a low price. That makes it somewhat different..

From his site: as a thank you to our fans for your continued support, we are
giving away the new nine inch nails album one hundred percent free,
exclusively via nin.com.

the music is available in a variety of formats including high-quality MP3,
FLAC or M4A lossless at CD quality and even higher-than-CD quality 24/96 WAVE.
your link will include all options - all free. all downloads include a PDF
with artwork and credits.

~~~
spriggan3
> Yeah but this musician provides free downloads of his music and high quality
> garage band files for a low price. That makes it somewhat different..

After making loads of money in the 90s from the very music industry he
despises now. It's easy to give stuff for free when you are already rich.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Ok so he has lots of money, has given a lot of his stuff away for free but is
complaining about businesses being built from stolen content. Why? I guess
he's standing up for the musicians without a loud enough voice to complain
about this stuff then.

------
shiftpgdn
How many record labels are making massive profit (via bogus DMCA/Content Aware
disputes) off of the backs of YouTube creators? I've had multiple videos get
their adsense dollars removed because there was 5 seconds of pop music
emanating from a storefront I walked by in my video.

With views and adsense revenue being heavily front loaded against the upload
time of the video I have no method of recovery of those lost dollars.

