
Amazon has sold no more than 35,000 Fire phones, data suggests - wfjackson
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/26/amazon-fire-phone-sales-data
======
georgemcbay
As a huge fan of Amazon in general (as a customer), I still find it difficult
to believe they released a hobbled Android phone that is AT&T exclusive and
starts at $650 into a world where the $350 fully unlocked Nexus 5 already
existed for almost 8 months prior to their release.

I'm just really seriously confused by what they were thinking here.

It is almost like seeing one of those "fail" videos where a kid piledrives his
friend off the roof into the backyard and both kids end up badly injured -- of
course that was the end result, there was no reasonably plausible path from
the starting point to any sort of non-failure ending.

~~~
anon_1235245
I worked at Lab126 on this project when this project was just started (a
number of years ago). Given the environment in the team and the people hired
to lead it, the fact that anything shipped at all is a miracle of gargantuan
proportions, trust me.

~~~
atmosx
Given the fact that entire 'Lab126' commented on the matter[1], I had the
chance to read some of these people's resumes... Which makes your quote hard
to believe :-)

[1] That's why I love HN anyway.

~~~
calinet6
Sometimes the best individuals make the worst teams. Almost correlated,
actually: those with the best resumes tend to think that products are made by
individuals.

------
e40
I bought a Fire tablet and I swore "never again" after that experience. I sold
it on Craig's list and bought a Nexus 7. Couldn't be happier.

The fact that Amazon has a separate store really ticked me off. Lots of apps I
was used to on my phone couldn't be used on the Fire. And, the fact that the
Fire was based on Android 2.x and really never got better, well, that was
really annoying, too.

So, when their phone was announced, even before I knew one thing about it, I
was completely uninterested.

~~~
r00fus
I'm not exactly a fan of the Fire tablets, but isn't the latest Fire OS based
on AOSP 4.0?

~~~
bellerocky
I own a Fire HDX 7" and it is a pretty amazing tablet. The many apps that
integrate with Google Play Service for no good reason, like a password manager
like 1Password, is pretty depressing though. I can't get the latest version of
it. I would probably buy an Android tablet if I didn't have so many videos on
Amazon's video store. I wish they would just make their videos available on
Android. Amazon is supposed to be platform independent but they haven't made
any videos available on Android and it fucking sucks. They're the only company
that makes their content available across devices, and now they're not even
doing that anymore. Why can't videos be portable. It sucks. It really sucks,
and they're not doing this in the best interest of their customers.

~~~
jerf
"The many apps that integrate with Google Play Service for no good reason,
like a password manager like 1Password, is pretty depressing though."

AIUI, "Google Play Services" are basically "Android updates for the Android
phones that we can't upgrade because carriers won't do it". Everything ends up
integrated into it because if you want one up-to-date service Android
provides, you'll end up getting it through that. Otherwise the app developer
is stuck on just the lowest-common-denominator.

I learned this because I have a phone running 2.2 that if I let it upgrade to
Google Play Services, and then upgrade all the other stock apps on the phone
that want to use it (YouTube, Gmail), leaves me without about 10MB of space on
the device left over. So I shut off the upgrades. I'm not in a hurry to
upgrade because it's just not what I want to do with the money.

~~~
king_jester
> I learned this because I have a phone running 2.2 that if I let it upgrade
> to Google Play Services, and then upgrade all the other stock apps on the
> phone that want to use it (YouTube, Gmail), leaves me without about 10MB of
> space on the device left over. So I shut off the upgrades. I'm not in a
> hurry to upgrade because it's just not what I want to do with the money.

I've been in a similar boat. The way storage partitions were handled on 2.x
era devices makes the larger sizes of apps and Google Play Services really
noticeable.

------
Lazare
I was excited about the Fire Phone because—without knowing anything about it,
but knowing Amazon's overall strategy—I thought it might end up being some
very solid hardware at a very competive price. The big question in my mind was
whether Amazon would have learned from their tablets and scrapped their closed
garden ecosystem and gone for a more stock Android experience.

...but as soon as hard details started coming out, it was clear that they were
going for the exact opposite strategy. Lackluster hardware, a premium price,
and a doubling down on their attempts to set themselves apart from Android.
And the problem with this is that it's a very stupid plan.

Here, try this experiment: Walk up to someone and say: "Hey, let's sell a not-
very-good Android phone at iPhone prices, after removing some of the best
Android features and adding some silly hardware gimmicks that nobody will like
or use!" If the person you are talking to doesn't burst into laughter, then
you are talking to Jeff Bezos, because there can't be _two_ people who think
that's a sensible plan.

~~~
camillomiller
>> "The big question in my mind was whether Amazon would have learned from
their tablets and scrapped their closed garden ecosystem and gone for a more
stock Android.

In other words the big question was: "will Amazon ditch their only reason to
sell hardware?"

Amazon's hardware products are gateways to the paid-for content they sell;
they're completely designed -- software wise -- to attend that purpose.

That's also why I don't see a failure of this phone as a tragic event for
Amazon. It's just a piece of their strategy that didn't worked out. More like
a "big test" gone wrong, than a commercial disgrace. I guess that there will
be a write off and a shrug, with no hard impacts on the bottom line.

~~~
Lazare
> In other words the big question was: "will Amazon ditch their only reason to
> sell hardware?"

Obviously Amazon is a content company, but something tells me that they're
probably not selling a lot of content to owners of Fire phones, given the
pitiful sales figures.

Keep in mind, the history of technology is rife with examples of companies
that reduced or eliminated vendor lock in in order to increase adoption; it's
not unreasonable to suggest that Amazon might sell more content if they sold
more phones, even if those phones were more open.

And you're also completely bypassing my point about prices and margins. Even
if you think the closed model is worth the costs for Amazon, clearly they'll
sell more content if they sell more phones, and clearly they'll sell more
phones if they're cheaper. And they're famous as a company willing to take the
long view and sacrifice short term profits for long term growth and market
share. Given that, wouldn't it make sense to sell the phones at cost, rather
than at Apple or Samsung level margins? Worse, while the Fire ecosystem is
closed, it's _closed in the wrong direction_.

The price point of the phone implies a strategy of "we'll make money on the
phone, which people will buy because of our amazing content and user
experience". But their user experience is mediocre, and their content is
available everywhere. Apple can do that with iPhones, because you have to buy
an iPhone to get iOS, a phone with iTunes, and most iPhone apps. But the
kindle app runs just fine on my OnePlus One, as do all the other Android apps
I might want to install on a Fire, if I had one. You seem to be arguing for a
strategy of "we'll make money on our content, which people will buy because
they already have our phones". I agree, it's a very promising strategy! But I
wonder why Amazon hasn't tried it. :)

------
TrainedMonkey
Fire phone was a flop from the start. Substandard hardware and premium price
tag do not mesh well together. Amazon thought that they could make software
killer feature and sell phone trough massive advertising and sheer brand
power. That is a tall order, and I am not surprised they failed.

However, if I learned anything about Amazon it is their tenacity. They will
keep improving and pouring billions into Fire until it works, like they've
done with their Cloud business. I think pulling HP Touchpad is not an option
because they are too much invested in mobile strategy. So with all that said,
while I am not surprised that first Fire phone flopped, I eventually expect
Amazon to have at least limited success.

------
kin
I was unimpressed when the "feature" in the teaser videos turned out to just
be a gimmicky 3D effect.

What really turns me off on the product is the currently airing commercial on
the radio where this girl is excited about all the notifications on her phone
letting her know which book or movie she should buy next.

If there are any owners here on HN, I'm really curious what about the phone
was alluring in any way.

~~~
saosebastiao
I haven't bought one, and after playing with them a bit I have decided not to
buy one, but I will sing its only praise: It is the only non-apple phone that
even approaches the level of apple's build quality. The Samsungs and HTCs are
kindergarten toys in comparison.

~~~
DAddYE
AMEN!

To go be in parent OT the saddest spot ever seen in my life is the samsung
gold plater with the song: "Im so fancy".

Really ...
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soS_Grbn5sY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soS_Grbn5sY)

------
ChuckMcM
I've recently seen the phone advertised with a year of free 'Prime' membership
(aka a $100 value). Not really very compelling, however if they gave you a
year of Prime and also that none of your Prime Video or Prime Audio streaming
counted against your Data cap, _that_ would be an interesting proposition.
Frankly I was kind of surprised they didn't just lead with that.

~~~
benatkin
If you're on the west coast, Prime now means having to deal with OnTrac:
www.yelp.com/biz/ontrac-south-san-francisco So it's really not a great deal.

~~~
kenjackson
OnTrac in Seattle works great. It often means my two day shipping will arrive
next day (although sometimes at 9pm, but still nice to get a day early).

~~~
thaumasiotes
OnTrac recently declared, apropos of nothing, that the package they
"guaranteed delivery" for was undeliverable, and that (according to their
online tracking) they'd try again the next day. They didn't. The tracking
didn't update for the next two days. They delivered my package the day after I
called them to complain -- the guy on the phone told me "we had some staffing
issues".

------
mason240
Just to put it into perspective, Amazon has 132,600 employees.

So if a full 25% of Amazon employees decided to be company men/women, that
alone would account for all their sales.

~~~
serve_yay
Hmm, is that like saying Apple has XXX,000 employees because of their retail
stores? (Technically true, which is actually not the best kind of true?)

~~~
72deluxe
Yes. They have that many employees.

I am not sure that the people running around Amazon's warehouses and doing
marathon distances every day would be happy to buy the phone, however. But
they do still count as employees.

------
stevebot
On one side I am considering the following:

1\. Amazon has had financial success with the Kindle Fire

[http://www.businessinsider.com/a-look-at-amazons-kindle-
ecos...](http://www.businessinsider.com/a-look-at-amazons-kindle-
ecosystem-3-2014-2)

They do not have market share, but Amazon's existing venture into Android
tablets has started to pay off. You can see that in 2011 the payoff was no
where as big as now.

2\. This is their first phone

Do we really expect their first phone to be successful? Its a huge marketplace
that will take a lot to break into. I can't think of many net new smart phone
makers besides Amazon in the US market. They need to get cell providers to buy
into this phone. If they can't do that they are screwed imo.

All that said these numbers are tragic if true.

------
saturdaysaint
I'm mystified when big companies think they can just barge into a new product
category by slapping their name on a product and offering marginal benefits
over entrenched competition. This definitely brings the Zune to mind.
Newsflash: you need an edge to compete!

Amazon needs to drop Fire OS and just make a damn good Android phone with some
well thought through customizations/exclusive apps for a great price. Until
then, I won't even believe that their own programmers are actually using
these.

------
sssilver
I give Amazon the benefit of the doubt, but I still don't understand their
reasoning behind this whole undertaking.

~~~
MBCook
Apple phones push iTunes and iBooks (soon Beats), and you can't buy Amazon
digital content in the Amazon apps because they don't want to pay Apple the
30% tax. Either way Apple will always encourage you to buy from Apple's
storefronts.

Google pushes Google Play for music and books. Similarly it's in Google's
interest to push people to the Google storefronts.

Apple and Google make up basically 100% of the smartphone/tablet market. If
Amazon doesn't get in there they may slowly get pushed out. They don't lead in
music (iTunes?) or video (iTunes/Netflix?) or apps (Apple's store), and they
certainly don't want to lose their position in books.

~~~
XorNot
If Amazon wanted to lead in music they could try this crazy new strategy
called: offer a quality product.

You're Amazon. You ARE datacenters. So why the ever-living-hell can I not buy
FLAC-encoded lossless tracks? There is an utterly negligible cost in providing
this content, its the only market which still moves CDs so there's obviously
demand, but _no one_ is touching it?

~~~
Aloha
Simple, less than 1% of the population can hear the difference (and I'm not
convinced the remainder isn't sampling error.) - I'm certain as soon as there
is a overwhelming demand for it, Amazon will support it.

I'd point out, that Apple doesn't event support its own lossless codec for
downloads, and they are arguably the market leader.

------
stephengoodwin
Any idea how many Amazon ordered to be manufactured?

------
aaron987
I'm really not surprised at the lack of interest in the Fire phone. Even from
the beginning, all of the advertising was focused on how the phone makes it
easier to buy stuff from Amazon.

They have to focus on how the device is creating some sort of value for their
end users. Streamlining the process of buying products does little to add
value. Instead, it looks like a selfish attempt by the company to increase
sales. Nobody cares if a product is good for the company, they buy a product
because it is good for them. If the Fire does have a value proposition, the
advertising has done a miserable job of pointing that out.

I haven't actually played with the phone yet, so I can't say if it is a bad
device or just bad marketing. But I'm not surprised at the lukewarm response
it has gotten.

------
dustin1114
After hearing about the idea of a phone from Amazon, I really thought they'd
do more. I like to buy things from Amazon (like many here probably do), and
thought that the phone would be competitively priced. It wasn't in my mind;
and with only one major US carrier (AT&T) that it's being sold under, the
customer base is even smaller. I love the ability of my current unlocked Nexus
4 to switch to another carrier or MVNO. Call me spoiled on the Nexus
devices...

How would I be sold on the Fire Phone, Amazon? Allow the phone to be unlocked
and lower off-contract price. Then, I'd consider it. I like the phone's
features, but if the value isn't there, then I'll pass.

~~~
kevinday
The lack of unlocking really surprised me. We bought one for testing that some
of our mobile software would run on it, so we got the no-contract version.
Even if you pay full retail price, it's still locked to AT&T. That's just
blatant foot-shooting. If someone's going to pay you full price, it shouldn't
be locked.

(And yes we tried getting Amazon to give us the unlock code. They said their
contract with AT&T didn't allow it.)

~~~
Danieru
Sounds like AT&T was the only carrier willing to give them the time of day. I
doubt Amazon really wanted to go single source.

------
alokdhari
I would have bought the phone if it came with lifetime or say 5 years of prime
and free videos and games and what not. And I reckon, Amazon could easily do
that but they didn't for some reason. Anyway, lesson learner I guess..

------
cix
A lot of people on here are defending Amazon "because they take risks". Yea of
course they do, they burn capital like a startup; when they have been in
business for ~20 years. That is just negligence, not persistence. Sure they
took a risk here, but it was vastly un-calculated and if it took them awhile
to develop the product it still doesn't justify the attempt to win the high
end as a newcomer in the space with a undeveloped app marketplace.

~~~
MBlume
> Yea of course they do, they burn capital like a startup; when they have been
> in business for ~20 years. That is just negligence, not persistence.

If I'd bought and held Amazon 10 years ago, would I be kicking myself now?

~~~
cix
No, but that's not the point. The e-commerce space is very different than the
product space. They are applying the same logic in both, which is a mistake.

------
keehun
Is it just me or is this hugely unsurprising? When I talk to most people (non-
tech), Amazon is not high on people's minds as a place to get phones/plans.

~~~
hkmurakami
Personally, I wouldn't even consider an Amazon "smart" device until it was at
least gen 2. From what I understand, hey made big strides between the first
and second gen Kindle Fire tablets.

That being said, currently there's no real differentiator for this phone.
Maybe they'll eventually do unlimited bandwidth deals for Prime video / music
content? (or do they already have that?)

~~~
taeric
I can definitely agree that the gen 1 kindle fire left a lot to be desired.
The latest offerings are quite nice, though.

And, lets be honest, it isn't like the earlier versions of any android device
are worth writing home about. Finally moved from a moto droidish era phone up
to the moto g. It is truly impressive how far they have come.

~~~
72deluxe
I wonder if it is Android itself that has made strides? I have been using it
since the G1 and 2.3 felt different to 1.6, but the real change for me came
with 4.0 (I had 3 on my Xoom but it felt awkward). I am not sure what whizz-
bang features they have been adding in recently, as everything post 4.1 looks
different for different's sake to me; more investigation likely required.

Do you think the hardware has got better with the Motorola, or just the
software and general less clunkiness?

~~~
taeric
Hard to say, honestly. I do know the moto g is impressive. Though, I have to
confess I actually prefer the kindle software.

------
blueskin_
It's almost as if they thought people would _want_ to spend $700 for the
privilege of giving Amazon more money.

------
moca
In a company like Amazon, only one person can push for such a product, eg Jeff
Bezos himself. For whatever reason, he just liked the product idea. Very few
people would appreciate such a product as sales number shows. It is just a
worse version of New Coke without Classic Coke.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
He must be surrounded by yes-men, because you'd think there would have been
some push-back from people who know what they're talking about.

Elite techies and brand specifiers are panning the Fire phone; why didn't
Amazon reach out to such people sooner and find out what features they are
willing to pay for?

The Fire phone is hobbled right out of the gate by a non-standard Android
version and a non-Google app store. They have to offer something more
compelling to customers than "it will scan things into your Amazon shopping
cart".

As others have suggested, bundling 5 years of Prime membership would have been
a nice start. One year - not so much. I, like thousands of others, am
wondering whether or not to renew my Prime at $99. Do I really need to spend
that much money just to spend more money? Starting to doubt....

------
madoublet
I don't think there is a market for a phone that is $600+ that is not an
iPhone. I think the battle going forward will be for the best $200 and $300
phone (unlocked). If Amazon would have hit either of these price points, the
product would be much more compelling.

~~~
Al-Khwarizmi
In the US maybe that's true. In my country (Spain), the Samsung flagships
outsell the iPhone by a mile, and the S5 was around €650 ($850) at launch.

~~~
72deluxe
Very interesting, thanks. Here in the UK I see many many iPhones but also many
Samsung devices, and few others.

Which flagship was it, out of interest?

~~~
Al-Khwarizmi
Currently the Samsung Galaxy S5. But the S4, S3, and probably the previous
ones in the Galaxy S line also outsold the corresponding iPhones here.

For example, here is a 2013 list of the top selling phones in Spain (list on
the left): [http://www.xatakamovil.com/mercado/samsung-copa-la-lista-
de-...](http://www.xatakamovil.com/mercado/samsung-copa-la-lista-de-
smartphones-mas-vendidos-en-espana-en-2013-iphone-5s-el-mejor-valorado)

As you can see, that year's Samsung flagship (Galaxy S3) makes the top 10, and
the iPhone doesn't, although the iPhone is on top of the right list (% buyers
who give the phone a 9 or 10 out of 10).

------
bhartzer
I'm surprised that the Fire phone hasn't done better... considering that when
I talk to my teenager and other teens they all want a Fire phone. Yet they
actually carry iPhone or Samsung Galaxy S5 phones.

~~~
freehunter
I want a Windows Phone. But I have an iPhone. I had a Windows Phone and still
ended up getting an iPhone. I also want a Ford Raptor SVT, but drive a Fiat.

Sometimes we don't use what we want, even if we can afford it, because what we
want just isn't practical. Even though we wish it was. If that were the case,
I'd still be using my Palm Pre.

------
rbanffy
On the bright side, it's 1000 times more successful than the Kin ;-)

~~~
guardian5x
Barely, considering the Kin was not really available to buy (at least not in
Europe, and only partially in the US)

------
photorized
I've been trying to estimate their sales from monitoring twitter activity.
Given the very low volume (200-600 mentions daily) since launch, I believe
that low sales figure.

~~~
untog
Number of tweets seems like it would be a highly inaccurate measure of almost
anything.

------
chj
Amazon tried to take Android and made it their own.Now it looks that it's not
even worth the trouble. I have to say they did a great job regarding their
developer support, but it doesn't help that they have a very small market and
are still using check for international payment.

------
gagabity
Seems like a very unreliable way to obtain sales numbers.

~~~
charlesarthur
If you know a better way to get sales figures relating to Amazon products,
please let me know.

