
Stanford students recreate 5,000-year-old Chinese beer recipe - benbreen
http://news.stanford.edu/2017/02/06/recreate-5000-year-old-chinese-beer-recipe
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DonaldFisk
"Liu, together with doctoral candidate Jiajing Wang and a group of other
experts, discovered the 5,000-year-old beer recipe by studying the residue on
the inner walls of pottery vessels found in an excavated site in northeast
China. "

So the recipe was arrived at by reverse-engineering residues in pottery
vessels, and not written down 5000 years ago. In contrast, the Hymn to
Ninkasi, which contains an ale recipe, was written down in Sumerian on clay
tablets 4000 years ago. Translation at
[http://www.piney.com/BabNinkasi.html](http://www.piney.com/BabNinkasi.html)

"The students first covered their grain with water and let it sprout, in a
process called malting. After the grain sprouted, the students crushed the
seeds and put them in water again. The container with the mixture was then
placed in the oven and heated to 65 degrees Celsius (149 F) for an hour, in a
process called mashing. Afterward, the students sealed the container with
plastic and let it stand at room temperature for about a week to ferment."

The heat would have killed off any yeast in the wort, and sealing the
container would have prevented any yeast getting in after the wort cooled, so
this cannot be correct. The correct process is to boil the wort, let it cool
down, and leave it outside (or open the windows) to allow wild yeast
(Saccharomyces cerevisiae) and other microorganisms to blow in and inoculate
the wort. This process is called spontaneous fermentation, and is still used
in Belgium to produce Lambic. Spontaneous fermentation causes bacteria
(Lactobacillus and Acetobacter species) to also settle in the wort, eventually
turning the beer sour. In other beer styles, yeast is deliberately added after
the wort cools.

"The ancient Chinese beer looked more like porridge and likely tasted sweeter
and fruitier than the clear, bitter beers of today."

It's an ale rather than a beer. To be a beer, it would have had to contain
hops, which give beer its bitterness and act as a preservative. Unless drunk
very quickly, like Lambic it would have also gone sour.

~~~
dgfgfdagasdfgfa
> It's an ale rather than a beer. To be a beer, it would have had to contain
> hops, which give beer its bitterness and act as a preservative. Unless drunk
> very quickly, like Lambic it would have also gone sour.

It's highly unlikely the Sumerian concotion would even pass for a beverage,
let alone a beer vs ale. More like a soupy, alcoholic bread. It would have
been filled with still-substantial grains; you would have drank it with a
straw.

~~~
ramblerman
You mean like the first picture in the article...

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peterwwillis
This seems a bit like finding an ancient pastry recipe and trying to make it
without knowing anything about baking. There's quite a bit of domain-specific
knowledge that the people who made the recipe would have that a random
scientist wouldn't have. Beer requires a lot of care to get the right result.
Among other things, the selection and maintenance of a specific active yeast
culture is critical for the right flavor.

Also, the story is at least misleading: they did not discover a recipe. They
found trace particles on the walls of pottery. You don't just collect the
ingredients of a baked good and then claim you have a recipe. There's quite a
bit more to actually making it.

How do they know what they were examining ("ancient beer would have looked
more like porridge") wasn't just the mash or sparge stages of beer making,
which often looks like porridge?

Here's an account of one guy who tried to make beer (and bread) using semi-
ancient methods:
[https://www.morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissue...](https://www.morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue2.5/hitchcock.html)
I like that his experiments produced an actual hypothesis as to the origins of
brewing:

 _" This test was not a complete waste, however. Though it should perhaps be
repeated in a warmer climate, it indicated that the earliest beer was not
likely produced by the simple accident of grain being soaked by rainwater. The
earliest beers likely did not appear until some process for mashing or malting
was developed, either in the form of a gruel or a sprouted bread."_

~~~
jly
The idea of cultivating yeast for brewing is critical. Before people had any
concept of microbiology or yeast, they were still able to maintain a quality
yeast strain. The same material was used for successive beers, and excess
yeast would accumulate on the brewing medium, which could be a fabric used in
the brewing vessel, or a stick used to stir the mash. It was quickly learned
that re-using these objects led to better beers that started faster, and these
objects may have been passed down for generations.

~~~
peterwwillis
A good example of having the right yeast is sourdough bread from San
Francisco.

Boudin Bakery was founded in San Francisco, and used a french baking process
with fermented dough. All of their bread has continued to be made with the
same starter dough and yeast from 1849. It even survived the great SF
earthquake and fires of 1906, as Louise Boudin threw some starter dough in a
bucket and got the hell out of town.

The particular yeast and lactobacilli they use interacts with the environment
of the SF bay and produces a bread unique to that starter and that area.
Making beer is a bit like baking bread in this way, but has more complex steps
to achieve different results, so controlling the brewing environment is
necessary for consistent results.

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blang
A Seattle micro brewery did a recreation of this for Chinese new year. It was
delicious.

[http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2017-03/20/content_286203...](http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2017-03/20/content_28620346.htm)

Full disclosure, the brewery is owned by a friend of mine, but I have no
financial stake in the company.

~~~
uptownfunk
Yeah but because it wasn't Stamford it doesn't make it to HN, so it doesn't
count, sorry.

~~~
blang
the owners do lack a degree from Stanford, but the brewmaster/co-owner does
have degrees in engineering from The University of Pennsylvania and UCLA.

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forgot-my-pw
Sounds like a fun class.

    
    
      At the end of Liu’s class, each student tried to imitate the ancient Chinese beer using either wheat, millet or barley seeds.
    
      The students first covered their grain with water and let it sprout, in a process called malting. After the grain sprouted, the students crushed the seeds and put them in water again. The container with the mixture was then placed in the oven and heated to 65 degrees Celsius (149 F) for an hour, in a process called mashing. Afterward, the students sealed the container with plastic and let it stand at room temperature for about a week to ferment.
    
      The ancient Chinese beer looked more like porridge and likely tasted sweeter and fruitier than the clear, bitter beers of today. The ingredients used for fermentation were not filtered out, and straws were commonly used for drinking, Liu said.

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kevinmchugh
Original paper on the analysis of the beer:
[http://www.pnas.org/content/113/23/6444](http://www.pnas.org/content/113/23/6444)

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SurrealSoul
I don't know much about brewery, but is there a reason this method might have
been lost to time and why the more familiar 'china wines' took over
popularity?

~~~
hinkley
Even tea prep has changed as dramatically over 1200 years in China. As my
(Taiwanese) tea dealer reminded me recently, if not for the Japanese adopting
Matcha, it would be almost unheard of today, because it's rare to see it in
China now.

~~~
janekm
It's back in force, KFC in China has Matcha ice cream now ;) (obviously back
via Japan, of course...)

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relyio
Coincidentally, a few years back, one of my application essay for Stanford
undergrad was about "Cooking archeology", and how re-creating dishes from the
past could deliver contextual insights for historical and anthropological
studies among other things.

~~~
zeroer
You're bringing into clear relief why I wasn't accepted to Stanford.

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grimmdude
I can see it now: "Stanford Grad Starts Brewery Specializing in Ancient
Chinese Recipes"

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louithethrid
I have my doubts this is as close to the original recipe as possible. Release
the specimen samples to the public.

~~~
coupdejarnac
Make beer free as in speech.

~~~
Jonovono
[http://freebeer.org/blog/](http://freebeer.org/blog/)

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faragon
TL;DR: wheat beer ("weiss beer" in German) was already made in China 5.000
years ago.

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api_or_ipa
Was there any issue with underage students taking the class?

