
Heavy Recruitment of Chinese Students Sows Discord on U.S. Campuses - petethomas
http://www.wsj.com/articles/heavy-recruitment-of-chinese-students-sows-discord-on-u-s-campuses-1458224413
======
elevenfist
Public universities (and private universities with some public missions like
mit) are becoming more like private corporations, for the benefit of the
administrators first. International students pay more.

Edit: I am not generalizing to all international chinese students, nor do I
know how uncommon or common my perspective is, but this is what I experienced
among undergrad and graduate international chinese students where I was
studying in the US.

More importantly, universities should not be allowing this sort of behavior in
the first place.

I'm surprised that this article didn't bother to present anyone else's
perspective (the other students, more faculty, people who live near college
campuses. More than discord, I bore witness to many international Chinese
students instances demonstrating a lack of basic morals. Rude to waiters,
aggressively driving around pedestrains, not bothering to pick up trash, no
qualms about abusing or destroying resources or cleaning up after themselves.
Pushing people off sidewalks. Cheating on tests, homework, sneering and trying
to bullshit their way out of it. Large cheating rings. I've seen so much shit
from international chinese students, not kicking them out or punishing them
for what they did negatively impacted everyone's college experience, and will
continue to dilute the reputation of my degree.

~~~
cr1895
To counter your rather tasteless and problematic description of Chinese
students with my own anecdote:

During my MSc I studied alongside numerous Chinese people (some of whom are
now my work colleagues), all of whom exhibited none of the antisocial
characteristics you describe. I also witnessed and heard of the racist things
people sometimes said to them (cartoonish ni haos, dog-eating comments, etc).
Those were gross and so is your description. Really, students from China will
dilute the reputation of your degree?!

~~~
Dr_tldr
Your selective and inaccurate editing of the host comment is dishonest,and the
emotionally charged adjectives you use make it sound like you're more
interested in virtue signaling than having a discussion.

The mistake you're making is that you think one anecdote cancels out another
and makes it invalid. Both anecdotal experiences are probably true. Anyone
urging us to reject one recounted experience as "gross" and "problematic" is
in favor of shutting out information that might be accurate but doesn't fit a
preconceived agenda.

In other words, not just a liar, but someone actively pressuring others to
deny their own experiences. I can't think of a worse person than that, no
matter what worthy cause they think it's in the service of.

------
huac
Foreign students being bad at English is a concern - it's a disservice to the
international students, teachers, and other students if a substantial subset
of students can't participate effectively.

~~~
tnecniv
I've had group projects where I couldn't communicate effectively with half of
my team.

~~~
enraged_camel
I've had projects where I was the only fluent English speaker, AND the rest of
the team all spoke another language (the same one) and decided to communicate
almost exclusively in that language.

~~~
bazqux2
The same happended to me. It was for an Accounting class in Australia. They
switched to mandarin to make it easier on everyone else.

------
ams6110
Some of these Chinese kids also come with an incredible amount of money. I
look around our local campus and see kids driving McLarens, Ferraris,
Lamborghinis, Maseratis, Bentleys, Audi R8s, it's like the set of a Top Gear
episode and without exception the drivers are young Chinese.

You've always seen the occasional BMW or Merc at the Greek houses but these
cars are insane.

~~~
protomyth
This is the primary reason since Chinese students have money and pay jacked up
tuition (2x or more than in-state). What exactly is the incentive not to
recruit? Heck, to ND's shame Dickinson State University went even further and
sold bogus degrees. Money is a heck of incentive.

~~~
hkmurakami
It's sort of the rationale that Ivy schools have always had in accepting a
student following a generous "gift" by their parents.

Even as students we figured "well I guess getting a brand new Chemistry
building in exchange for giving up one out of the 1000 seats we have in our
class isn't such a bad deal."

Truly a "portfolio of students"

~~~
copperx
> brand new Chemistry building

So, 50+ million in exchange for admission? sounds rather steep. For that
amount I think you could find a famous professor willing to go on a
'sabbatical' to tutor you personally for a year.

I think I know how I'm going to spend my lottery jackpot.

~~~
abiox
50+ mil a year would be an okay tutoring gig.

------
Cookingboy
I moved to the U.S. at the age of 14, from Shanghai. Since then I've done a
pretty solid job integrating into the American culture (not much a choice, not
exactly that many international students in my Dallas suburb high school), got
an undergrad degree, made many friends. I now see myself as half American half
Chinese. I spend more time on Reddit than I do on Weibo, and I use Facebook a
lot more than WeChat. I can still write Chinese business emails and my
favorite authors are Jinyong and John Irving.

My half-brother, who came to the U.S. at the age of 18, is a totally different
story. He's smarter than I am, being a math olympiad competitor and got
himself an internship at Google as a Freshman and all that jazz. However I
noticed that he's done a much poorer job at integrating with the American
culture. He doesn't browse Reddit, or HackerNews, or TechCrunch, even though
he's into tech and startups. He loves Anime but watches them subbed in
Chinese. He watches Chinese streaming sites instead of Netflix. As a 20 year
old he doesn't know most of the popular memes on western social sites. He
doesn't use Facebook, at all.

Some of that has to do with personal motivation, as in why would I go out and
make friends with Americans when 20% of my high school classmates are now in
the same Ivy-League school as I am? Some of that is due to technology
advancement. Due to the internet it's very easy to live in a personal bubble
of your preferred language, culture, and acquiantences, even if it's 10000
miles away from home. He doesn't know whether he even wants to stay in the
U.S. after graduation, and I'm sure he literally feels much more at home when
he goes back to China.

The last factor may also be the state of the Chinese economy. Early immigrants
came with the impression that "if you wanna make it, you have to participate
in the American rat race", but in the case of my brother and his friends, they
are interested in tech startup, but they have very little interest in the
Silicon Valley tech scene. Due to family connections and other backgrounds
they think they can do something much more meaningful if they move back to
China and raise money and achieve success. Just 10 years ago that kind of
thought is unthinkable.

Personally I don't want to see American colleges, which I think are still on
average the best in the world, to just turn into diploma mills. I really wish
that these young Chinese students can grasp the opportunity and actually learn
about some of the deeper culture of the country they are (temporarily) staying
in. The world economy is only going to become more intertwined, we need more
people who can bridge the gaps.

~~~
induscreep
> much poorer job at integrating with the American culture

> doesn't browse Reddit, or HackerNews, or TechCrunch, even though he's into
> tech and startups

> he doesn't know most of the popular memes on western social sites

> doesn't use Facebook, at all

Is this what "American" means?

~~~
bdhe
Cut him some slack. According to his comment he's 16. He's viewing it from a
high school lens. Whether or not being an "American" 20-something year old
requires you to do what was mentioned above, some of his points are
interesting.

Immigrants make choices constantly -- subconsciously or otherwise -- on how
much to indulge in the local culture, and how much to stick to your familiar
roots. Unfortunately, there can be strong feedback loops that develop quickly;
one immigrant group is tightly knit because they find it harder to bridge the
gap and the gap gets harder to bridge because Americans find the immigrant
groups "too ethnically knit" and closed to bother. Not to mention that there's
a natural tendency to be a little apprehensive towards someone new with their
own set of customs.

~~~
Cookingboy
I don't know whether you are just being facetious, but I'm not 16. I was
simply comparing my brother to other "engineering nerds" in his age group, and
I find him sharing very limited hobbies or interests when compared to kids who
grew up here. It's not like he doesn't like social networks, he just doesn't
use American ones. It's not like he doesn't watch TV shows, but just not the
American ones. It's not like he doesn't eat out, just that he strongly prefers
Chinese food.

My examples were very limited, they are only used to illustrate a point, but
not to make a broad statement.

~~~
huac
I think the bigger point is that high school is a bigger influence on how
'assimilated' people are. College is definitely a time of personal growth, but
I think high school is even more so a time of growth.

Maybe at 14, your friends aren't locked into FB/WeChat/etc, and the network
effect isn't as strong to attract you to one cultural set or another. The
other theory I have is that with how much larger colleges are, and in
particular how many more international students there are at the collegiate
level, there is less pressure to 'assimilate' and find 'American' friends.
I've definitely noticed that international students hang out with other
internationals a lot in college. It's really common to hear Portugese or
Korean in my library, for example. Having some support base probably makes it
easier to hang out only with those who are super similar to you.

------
HelloRipley
I teach Intro to Computer Science to (mostly) economics majors.

I currently have four Chinese students (out of 45 total), all of whom go
through the right motions. They sit in the front of the class, they ask
questions after lecture, etc... The types of things your mother would tell you
to do so the professor "knows your name".

All four exhibit a significant language barrier. Although... I don't think
that is the only thing hampering their performance.

I personally know how hard it can be to learn in a different language
environment (I took a university class held in Finland and it was tough to say
the least). Luckily, it was a math class and I was able to eke out good marks.

At the risk of sounding cynical, and not wanting to paint a picture of _all_
Chinese students, I get the vibe from mine that they are really just there to
get a degree, not to learn AT ALL. Hey... so are many of my WASPy students,
let's not kid ourselves. But it's something about the way my Chinese kids want
accommodation _solely_ by going through the motions, as if just showing up to
class and sitting up front guarantees you an A. I just don't see the real
effort on their behalf.

~~~
debrangy
Do you have any actual examples of their poor academic behaviour, or are you
just speculating? Because it sounds like you're singling them out for being
Chinese right now.

~~~
Gustomaximus
In Australia international students, a large proportion from China have built
a reputation on endemic cheating. There is also culpability on the
institutional side as universities allow them through degrees with different
set of standards as the uni's appreciate full fee paying international
students vs subsidised government paid national students. I met my wife, a
foreigner at an Australian uni and she absolutely recognised her preferred
treatment as a personal anecdote;

A quick Google shows this example article. Many more if you want to research
this topic yourself vs imply someone is simply being racist:
[http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/academics-accuse-
un...](http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/academics-accuse-universities-
of-addiction-to-international-students-and-their-
cheating-20141112-11lbdi.html)

And I get what you're saying, and I'm not trying to tar all international
students as doing this. More so it's a good topic to discuss, to stop this
behavior and protect the reputation and achievement of those students that do
work hard and truly earn their degree and other academic accolades. But at
least at Australian universities this is a massively widespread problem, which
uni's dont want to seem to deal with and it would not surprise me if this was
more international.

Edit: Spelling

~~~
debrangy
Cheating is not what OP was talking about. You are mentioning a completely
different issue.

Also, having been through university myself, cheating is completely widespread
through domestic students as well. I'd like to see some statistics that
international students cheat more, rather than anecdotes.

~~~
pigpaws
so basically, you want to see statistics on "lying"? just have a gander at the
websites that sell questions. I can't begin to tell you how many there are
just for technical certs (cisco, McrSft, etc...). and business is booming.
follow the news in India and you'll see all the "cheating student" stories you
want.

The issue goes to the fact that grades/school prestige are being used to imply
that a student will be a solid addition to a company, yet everyone wants to
espouse "Meritocracy" \- not realizing that only comes after you're in the
"real world" and you've got a few years worth of jobs on your resume/CV.

In life, as in classes there is the way the book tells you how it SHOULD be,
and then there is the reality of how it actually is. Sadly, students are
unprepared for what they will experience in the "real world". Part of it is
the school's fault, but also the students bare some responsibility when they
insist on wearing rose-colored glasses.

~~~
debrangy
I believe you have misinterpreted my post.

------
pnathan
I generally would like to see a more patriotic (real patriotism: none of this
flags and hoo-rah silliness) approach to student recruitment and scholarships
on campuses. I believe American schools can produce excellent students. I
think the US has some very high-class aspirations and values, and care should
be taken to preserve them and to grow practices such as tenure and free speech
which let the best of US values flourish.

Having a heavy mix of people from places with other aspirations and values
will dilute this system.

Of course: the language issue is a big deal. I've had fellow-students that
couldn't speak or understand a word of verbal English - in graduate school!!!
But their written was adequate. I don't believe they should have been accepted
- they should have been kindly redirected to their national universities. Most
international students don't have this issue, of course! Most are very fluent
in English, even if they have an accent.

One very tangible aspect of the situation is that international students often
pay cash and are charged out the ying-yang to attend. Perhaps if our fine
federal government mandated public universities have equal costs for national
and international students, universities wouldn't feel quite so incentivized
to attract the (often extremely talented!) international students.

~~~
vkou
This sounds like a good idea - perhaps it could be pushed even further - why
can't we do more to discourage students from attaining out-of-state
universities?

Admitting a heavy mix of people from places like Missouri and Alabama will
dilute the wonderful high-class aspirations and values that you see in a place
like California, New York, or Washington.

~~~
alphydan
Well, there are terrible neighbourhoods in California. And for Texan
universities, some of the locals have accents. I would restrict it good
neighbourhoods and well spoken gentlemen/women. This should avoid all the
dilution. /s

~~~
bilbo0s
I think you missed his point.

In places like Alabama, nearly everyone will have an accent. The implication
being that anyone with a southern accent, which can be difficult to
understand, would cause what you are terming "dilution".

I don't know? My own belief is that making New Yorkers go to school with
people from Alabama provides an additional dimension to the education for all
concerned. I believe there is value in it. Reasonable people are free to
disagree of course.

------
gonyea
This is the result of the federal government (congress) abdicating its
responsibility during the recession. They allowed state budget cuts to affect
education, and to this day schools are doing everything they can to bridge the
gap from overseas students.

The great recession didn't just create a lost generation from un/under
employment among millennials. It also denied many access to an education at
all, and saddled the rest with mountains of debt.

~~~
shas3
Umm, no. The opportunity exists because the economies of India and China are
growing, and the elites of those countries emphasize education. Whether
governments cut their budgets or not, universities will grab such an
opportunity with both hands. To me, it appears like the budget cuts are just a
pretext. Do a thought experiment for me: Assume that the government never cut
university budgets. Yet the universities are competing with each other and
need money to out compete. China and India come along, with lots of rich kids.
This is like finding a 10-dollar note on the sidewalk. Of course they'll pick
it up. There are a few things these universities are doing: 1. tie up with
local universities (NYU Abu Dhabi, CMU China, etc.), 2. encourage more
applications from abroad.

Other than the cultural friction, etc. I don't see any reason why universities
pursuing foreign students is immoral or unethical. They already do this at
some level by courting out-of-state student fans via strong/popular sports
programs, etc.

Edit: CMU-Sun Yat Sen tie up: [https://jie.cmu.edu/](https://jie.cmu.edu/)
Bigger list here: [http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/420/foreign-
campuses.html](http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/420/foreign-campuses.html)

~~~
handedness
> The opportunity exists because the economies of India and China are growing,
> and the elites of those countries emphasize education.

That's a much smaller driving force than capital flight. The elites of those
countries want to move assets and investment out of the country, so you buy
the child a home (in-state tuition) you can move to after they graduate, send
support money over to the student, etc.

The wealthy Chinese understand that US Dollars and the American are a more
stable platform over the next few decades than China (which isn't terribly
likely to exist as presently constituted by that point).

When Japanese nationals were buying up American property left and right,
Americans took it as a sign that the Japanese economy would grow rapidly
forever, and they'd take over the world.

In reality, Japanese elites knew better than anyone what the future held, and
wanted to tie up their wealth in American assets.

Capital flight is a major, major factor.

~~~
shas3
[Citation needed] for your capital flight claim.

It is not as simplistic as you think. Super rich people in China or India use
similar financial instruments as those in the US to diversify, ensure good
ROI, etc. Yes, US is a more stable economy. But there are smarter and more
straightforward ways to tie yourself to the US growth rate than buying up a
condo in Champaign, IL.

Also will it shock you to learn that people desire a US education because it
is the best in the world? One way to think of it, if you can afford them:
German luxury cars are among the best, so you buy a BMW or Merc; Italian
sportscars are among the best, so you buy those; Milan and Paris fashion
brands are among the best, so you buy those; likewise, US (along with UK
'Oxbridge') education is the best in the world so you go for that.

~~~
handedness
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:CPXQS_v...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:CPXQS_vRgOQJ:www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ae4dee44-bf34-11e5-9fdb-87b8d15baec2.html+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-14/china-s-
ca...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-14/china-s-capital-
flight)

[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-07/key-to-
chi...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-07/key-to-china-
holding-back-capital-dam-seen-in-boosting-economy)

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/12134684/Time-r...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/12134684/Time-
running-out-for-China-on-capital-flight-warns-bank-chief.html)

It's a fairly common symptom of a financial crisis, and putting your family up
in a new country and loading up on assets there is one of the more outwardly
visible symptoms of it. (Again, see Japan's history–the data's in the OP's
article.)

China's zero-unemployment policy have created some incredibly unsustainable
trends, and they know it. Meanwhile, Beijing has to figure out how it's going
to keep a nation that would span about five time zones unified, when they have
a wealth disparity like the world's never known.

India, meanwhile, is destined to remain incredibly capital poor, despite being
able to feed itself pretty handily. If you're a wealthy Indian elite, you're
capital rich but constrained by your local geography.

Combine in the negative-interest-rate policies many countries have adopted,
and the money's absolutely going to migrate away from that (as low as rates
are elsewhere, they're still higher).

Anyway, I don't think wealthy Chinese nationals are limiting themselves to
buying a condo in Champaign, IL. But when you expatriate large amounts of
currency, winding up with a house and a few supercars in the destination
country isn't a rare phenomenon.

And yeah, the colleges are good, too, but they were also good when we had
comparatively few Chinese students attending them, too.

------
HillaryBriss
It's roughly a one for one replacement policy at the flagship campuses. For
every out-of-state student attending UCLA/Berkeley/CalPoly*, an in-state
student has been displaced.

California policy makers must assess the risk that California resident
taxpayers simply lose their willingness to support these institutions or to
support tax increases to support these institutions.

Maybe the existing trend to accept additional "full freight out of state"
students is a sign that California residents have already lost their appetite
for higher-ed supporting tax increases, a sign that the system has no choice
but to start selling these class slots to the highest bidders.

~~~
hackuser
> California policy makers must assess the risk that California resident
> taxpayers simply lose their willingness to support these institutions or to
> support tax increases to support these institutions.

The problem is the reverse: Taxpayers in many states, including CA IIRC, have
been cutting funding to higher education. They want "smaller government" and
tax cuts.

As a result, the universities have to find other sources of income, including
higher tuition and more out-of-state and foreign students.

~~~
HillaryBriss
Yeah, I guess it depends on how you account for spending and the will of the
voter base.

California's governor has indeed proposed increased funding in recent years:

"Gov. Jerry Brown unveiled his proposed state budget at a press conference in
Sacramento on Thursday, providing about $350 million to the UC system in
additional funding for the 2016-17 fiscal year."

[http://www.dailycal.org/2016/01/12/gov-
browns-2016-17-budget...](http://www.dailycal.org/2016/01/12/gov-
browns-2016-17-budget-proposal-ensures-increased-funding-uc/)

------
YeGoblynQueenne
Full disclosure: I'm a Greek immigrant in an English-speaking country (the
UK), working and studying part-time in an English-speaking workplace and
university.

I parse this article as a very typical pair of complaints:

a) There's too many foreigners here.

b) Their English is bad.

On (a) the population of China is 1.3 billion, the world population is 7.4, so
one out of every 7 people on the planet is Chinese. You should expect there to
be more foreign people from China than anywhere else, outside China. It should
be surprising if there aren't.

The same goes for India: its population is 1.2 billion. And, surprise-
surprise, you hear the same complaints about Indians, particularly in IT
workplaces, but also in universities.

Note that because everyone else has less than 1 billion population, there's
less than one of every other ethnicity for each Chinese and Indian person, so
the stand-out effect is even more pronounced.

So, not any serious complaint here, just people who haven't looked at the
numbers and think they live in a different historical period where
international travel was harder.

As to (b) I personally find this distasteful. Everyone else except native
English speakers has even worse trouble communicating in English with non-
native English speakers, yet you don't hear as many complaints about it. I
have trouble getting what Chinese students are saying in English, as they have
trouble getting what I say in English. Well, duh. Human communication is a
bitch. If there is a God, he's got a lot to account for with the Tower of
Babel malarky and whatnot.

But listen, this is how communication works: you meet the other person
halfway. You have to make as much of an effort to understand what the other
person is saying as they have to, to make sure you do. That's true even when
you both speak the same language natively. It's amazing -no, it's a bloody
miracle- that we can communicate at all. Anyone who's studied human languages
is struck dumb by the mind-boggling improbability of it. It's crazy that we
can even get our point across with a lot of effort, let along effortlessly.

So yeah, quit complaining and just learn to understand what others are saying,
in spite of the language barrier. That's what an educated human does.

~~~
Shaanie
The difference is that in American universities English is the primary
language, and if you can't communicate in English then you shouldn't be
attending somewhere where English communication is required.

I disagree with your assertion that I should have to make as much of an effort
to understand them as they have to, when they are the ones visiting another
country. I wouldn't attend a Chinese university without making sure I can
effectively communicate in Chinese (or whatever language is used there), and I
expect the same courtesy from other people.

------
cmuuuuuu
This is the most xenophobic thread I've seen on hacker news. A very
significant portion of my program is international and we have no problems.
Smartest people I've had the pleasure of working with and no barriers.

~~~
Chris2048
Therefore any conflicting experience at _other_ universities must be
incorrect?

------
cat-dev-null
As a somewhat high-performing student (not necessarily child prodigy but
close) in China, how easy/hard is it to get tuition help? Does it require
family money/connections (private sources) or are the govt programs which help
substantially (public sources)? Are they grants / loans or have other
"strings" (obligations) attached?

------
hackuser
> School administrators and teachers bluntly say a significant portion of
> international students are ill prepared

Isn't that a problem with admissions?

~~~
frandroid
Admissions know what they're doing, i.e. following administrative policies of
letting foreign students paying fully jacked-up tuition no matter what.

------
pigpaws
you mean the business of education is following the money and not focusing on
spoiled American students who want their cake and eat it too?

Follow the money. Education is a business model, no matter the economic model
of the country.

~~~
duaneb
> Education is a business model

This is from a country that pioneered universal public education. This
attitude disgusts me—the exact same arguments apply to health insurance
companies. It's a social good with immense effect on our society, and yet we
still attempt to drain money from our neighbors to justify its existence.

This is the type of attitude that allows an elite upper class and inspires
Trump-esque populist angst. The economy should never be the country's primary
concern but balanced with all the citizens' needs.

~~~
pigpaws
Then it seems that you are easily disgusted. You let me know when the
"tenured" professors decide to give up their $150k salaries with months-long
"sabbaticals".

The "Education System" is basically the "Liberal's" version of the MIC.

~~~
duaneb
> You let me know when the "tenured" professors decide to give up their $150k
> salaries with months-long "sabbaticals".

The vast majority of professors make crap money (unless you're a research prof
or work at an elite liberal arts college). Sabbaticals are often for a full
year.

The problem with education has nothing to do with the wage of the
professors—we already can't afford to pay them what they're worth.

> The "Education System" is basically the "Liberal's" version of the MIC.

I can't understand this sentence.

What did anything you have to say do with anything I had to say?

~~~
pigpaws
first, define "crap money". Professors work 8-9 months out of the year. for
most, their jobs are protected (tenure), which doesn't exist in the real
world. Lets not even get into the educational closed-loop many exist in. (3rd-
Century Romanian literature will always be 3rd-Century Romanian Lit.)

The problem with education has everything to do with the money the schools
have, how they get it and what they do with it - including pay for professors
and janitors alike. When the Gov't started giving out 'free money' for student
loans, the cost of education went up. why? not because the staff is virtuous
and the presidents are moral stalwarts. Its because everyone wants a new car
and a flat screen, 4k TV.

[http://www.nber.org/chapters/c13711.pdf](http://www.nber.org/chapters/c13711.pdf)

I mentioned the MIC because you brought up politics and class differences re:
the FACT that education is a business model. like anything else, it is led
around by it nose (money). While I can not say that its the best model, i can
say I'm not going to pay for someone's X-year degree(s) in 3rd-Century
Romanian literature - nor should I be forced to - that is the very opposite of
Liberty.

Harvard has a $36 BILLION endowment and yet the costs keep going up. WHY?
Education SHOULD be one of those things we look up to in society, but unless
there is better motivating factor to do so, it will not happen. But then, who
says formal education is the ONLY way to get educated?

[http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-
list...](http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-
college/articles/2015/10/06/10-universities-with-the-largest-endowments)

[http://money.cnn.com/2016/01/27/pf/college/largest-
college-e...](http://money.cnn.com/2016/01/27/pf/college/largest-college-
endowments/)

------
strathmeyer
The problem is when your university can't find you a job utilizing your degree
yet hires foreigners on H1B visas to do such work on campus. How are we
supposed to feel about that??

------
ru55
I've had dozens of Chinese students in my classes and graduate rotations. I'm
in a technical field and it's a competitive program, and I don't think I've
ever encountered a student who couldn't cut it in terms of doing the rigorous
work required. On the whole, my Chinese students have been as good or better
than their local peers, which is true of most foreign national students: kids
who have busted their asses to navigate the difficult academic, bureaucratic,
and cultural hurdles to succeeding in an overseas university are typically
self-selecting for aptitude and a good work ethic.

That said, I've also found a massively higher level of barefaced cheating,
including things like copying and pasting code that previous students had
inadvisably put on github, and that after I specifically said I'm aware of the
existence of that code and will check for it. Or homework answers that are
perfectly correct - if you were answering the homework given to a previous
quarter's version of the class, rather than the current version with changes
to the specifics. Or looking up answers on smartphones in the middle of a
test, and then attempting to ignore the fact that they had been caught.

And it isn't just the cheating: it's the indignation when confronted about it.
It's almost never denial, but rather something along the lines of "I did this
because I have a lot of work to do. Just don't worry about it this time, I
won't cheat on the next one."

It's especially upsetting because the kids aren't incapable of doing the work,
they just seem to think that's it's totally acceptable to cheat their way
through classes when they feel like it. While it's no more noble or allowable
for kids who are in over their heads and unable to do the work cheat, it's at
least somewhat understandable. Cheating out of some combination of arrogance
and indifference is far more alien to me.

There's a second major problem very specific to Chinese students, that I
assume is related to the first: shocking lack of English language skills. I
say shocking because these are students who have theoretically scored very
high on the SAT or GRE. While I'm in a technical field, we still insist on at
least decent verbal scores plus high TOEFL scores for admissions, and yet I
regularly get students who have major trouble parsing even very simple written
English instructions. I've never noticed the same issue with students from
other Asian countries, so I have always wondered if there's some "system" for
Chinese students, consisting of either outright cheating on the standardized
tests or else some rote memorization techniques that result in acceptable test
scores but little-to-no actual English learning.

I'm not a crazy outlier in my department, most faculty who aren't either in or
hope to be in leadership positions that require lots of under-the-table
footsies with the administration have voiced similar concerns. The
administration can't get enough of those inflated foreign tuitions, though, so
they aren't likely to do anything substantive on the issue. They've tried to
do outreach to get the point across that cheating, both before and after entry
to the university, is not acceptable behavior, but from everything I've seen
it's water off a duck's back.

Finally, I'm not some closet racist who wants to bring back the lily white
college campuses of the bad old days. As I noted, foreign students are, on a
whole, much more studios and less likely to take their education for granted
when compared to domestic students. And "on a whole" in this case includes
Chinese students! The problem isn't that Chinese students (or students of any
nationality) are inherently bad: it's that we are sorely lacking in tools to
adequately evaluate them for admissions and to get them to understand and
respect academic integrity rules.

------
graycat
How come families in China are able to pay full US tuition in US dollars, with
a Ferrari or not?

Now China has more rich people than the US?

~~~
SolaceQuantum
China has 4x the amount of people as USA. I'm going to assume yes, probably,
there are more "rich" people (able to afford a Ferrari for their college
student studying in a foreign country) in China than the US. There are more
/people/ in China than the US.

~~~
graycat
But China is supposed to be a poor country?

~~~
skuhn
China, like many countries but more significantly than most, has a wealth
distribution gap. The richest 1% of the country own 33% of the wealth.

Now consider how many people live in China (1.3bn) and how many people fit
into that 1% (13.5m). That's a lot of families who can afford standards of
living greatly different from the averages in rural China. They may also have
various incentives to spend that money outside of China rather than build up
local institutions for their children to attend.

In theory this cash influx is good for foreign educational institutions, but
only if they are smart about the money they take and how they factor it in and
spend it. I'm not really convinced they are being smart, but time will tell.

~~~
graycat
Sure, but I was reluctant to conclude that in a _Communist_ , or recently
Communist, country the wealth distribution could so quickly be so extreme.

~~~
tamana
You should read up on how Communism plays out in practice. The Chinese
government is full of billionaires who embezzle wealth.

~~~
graycat
Yes, but I (1) was reluctant to believe that many of them would so flaunt
their ill-gotten gains that they would have their kids paying full tuition at
a US university and commuting to class in a Ferrari and (2) did get an
impression that at times such government bureaucrats got strung up, a firing
squad, long prison terms, or some such.

It's on the other side of the plant form me -- I don't have good information.

~~~
skuhn
My guess is that this is part of the incentive to do this on the other side of
the world.

While we're hearing about it happening, we aren't getting specifics about
particular people because it's just one or two people living ostentatiously
it's a small herd. In a way it's less chance of publicity blowing back on your
family in China than flaunting your wealth in Beijing.

------
hackuser
The article says, in many ways, that cross-cultural integration is difficult.
But if it wasn't difficult, it wouldn't be an important experience for
everyone, foreign and domestic.

In other words, the article merely restates the problem. The real question is
how to do it more effectively.

~~~
hkmurakami
It's like your typical NYT bestseller business nonfiction book: present a
problem and explain it well, but not offer any tangible solutions.

------
hackuser
Another view of foreign students:

Study Abroad as a Path to Equity and Justice

[https://medium.com/the-development-set/study-abroad-as-a-
pat...](https://medium.com/the-development-set/study-abroad-as-a-path-to-
equity-and-justice-f5b902e8f13)

------
ones_and_zeros
Take note fellow engineers: There is an effort from our industry, our
government and our educational institutions to bring in more foreign students
and keep them here. They are cheaper than you and will always be younger than
you.

~~~
saint_fiasco
Are they more competent than you?

If they are not, you have little to worry about. If they are, they deserve
your job.

~~~
ones_and_zeros
> Are they more competent than you?

no.[0]

It's purely a money thing. I don't fault our industry, I do fault our
government for bending over backward for them. Besides, I'd rather our
industry and government focus on filling those classrooms with Americans and
hiring Americans first. But it's a self fulfilling prophecy and I just want to
start a conversation because I think that this "career" may not be the best if
you are at all capable.

[0] [http://www.epi.org/publication/bp356-foreign-students-
best-b...](http://www.epi.org/publication/bp356-foreign-students-best-
brightest-immigration-policy/)

~~~
duaneb
Agreed. The H1B push seems to be solving a short term problem while leaving
our domestic educational problems unaddressed.

~~~
saint_fiasco
America already has many of the best Universities in the world.

From looking at international rankings it looks like the domestic educational
problems are more in the middle and high-school level. The Universities are
doing great.

~~~
elevenfist
Professors across the country (three West coast, two east coast, one sw) have
told me that undergrad is going to shit actually, but grad school is still ok
for now.

~~~
saint_fiasco
Shitty high-school means unprepared undergrad students, which means
comparatively better foreign students.

~~~
elevenfist
More honest professors admit that it's universities that are really dropping
the ball.

~~~
saint_fiasco
Do they blame the professors or the administration?

If it's the professors all hope is lost, since future professors will be
taught by the people who are currently dropping the ball.

