
Fixing the computer guy posture [pdf] - aniketpant
http://kaasplateau.com/stretches.pdf
======
henrik_w
When you ignore (or are unaware of) ergonomic issues for years, you can get
into serious trouble (like I did). I had been programming for over 10 years
without any problems (and without paying any attention to ergonomics), and 7
years ago I got Repetitive Stress Injury (RSI) really bad. I tried many things
to get rid of it, including lots of exercises like the ones in this post, but
it was very hard to get rid of. The RSI got so bad that I thought I had to
give up programming all together.

Fortunately I managed to find a combination that worked for me. The most
important component was using a break program that made sure I took breaks to
rest my arms and hands, and to do some exercises. I also switched to an
ergonomic keyboard and mouse. I am now completely recovered, but it really
made me realize that we need to pay attention to ergonomics.

I've written up my story in more detail here:
<http://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/>

In addition to what I mention in my post, I am now also using a height-
adjustable desk (some people think they are expensive, but they're not). It's
really good to be able to switch between sitting and standing. If you are like
me for the first 10 years of my career (i.e. ignoring ergonomics), consider
paying a little bit of attention now, otherwise it may become a problem later
on.

~~~
ohwp
Years ago I also got RSI. One thing that helped me a lot was to think about
lactic acid. Your body doesn't have a lot of problems with repeating motion
unless the milk acid can't be transported. And I think stress is the main
reason why the transportation of milk acid is blocked because it make your
muscles contract. I also think we are so used to stress that we don't even
realize we are under pressure.

That's why exercise is great. It will help your remove the milk acid but also
to release stress.

~~~
JshWright
You have a flawed understanding of how your cells consume glucose.

Lactic acid it not produced in any significant quantity during 'normal
operation' of your body.

Your cells break down glucose into a molecule called pyruvate in a process
called 'glycolysis'. This yields some 'energy' (in the form of ATP). This
process requires some energy, so the net gain is only two ATP. It also
requires a couple NAD- ions, which pick up some spare hydrogen protons that
get kicked out. Those NAD- get turned into NADH, are are used later in the
process (and turned back into NAD-, so they can facilitate more 'glycolysis').

If the cell has enough oxygen, it can then oxidize the pyruvate in the Citric
Acid Cyle (aka the TCA cycle, aka the Kreb's cycle), gaining many times more
ATP (34, in total).

If, however, the cell doesn't have enough oxygen, it can't run the TCA cycle.
This isn't a big deal in the short term. Your cells can keep running through
that glycolosis process to produce energy as long as they have enough glucose
to break down, and enough NAD- to grab protons. The glucose isn't generally a
problem. Your body keeps a fair amount of it in the blood, and the liver can
release more pretty easily.

The problem is the limited number of NAD- ions in your cells. Once those are
used up, glycolosis stops. Fortunately, your cells can 'free them up' by using
them to turn pyruvate into lactate. This produces the 'milk acid' you talk
about, but it frees up the NAD- for more glycolosis. The cell hangs on to the
lactate for a while in the hopes of getting more oxygen it can use to turn it
back into pyruvate and run it through the TCA cycle, and if that doesn't
happen, it eventually diffuses out into the blood where it ends up in the
liver, which uses it to build up its glycogen stores for the next time there's
a sudden demand for a lot of glucose.

So, in short, unless you're exercising hard, your body will have no trouble
meeting its oxygen demand, and no lactic acid will be produced. This has been
an overly simplified (but mostly accurate) description of this process. I'd
encourage you to do your own research to learn more (the search terms
'cellular respiration' 'glycolosis' and 'citric acid cycle' should all be
useful)

------
nessus42
I'm surprised that the OP didn't mention reverse flies. I developed terrible
RSI and upper back problems when I hit about 30. One of the biggest problems
was my posture: slumping shoulders. By the time I got to this point, I could
not physically hold my shoulders in the correct position with my back muscles,
as they had completely atrophied, and a huge amount of strain was being placed
on my neck muscles.

One part of the solution was physical therapy, which was mostly training me
how to do the exercises I needed to do: reverse flies. First with a Theraband.
Then with a stronger Theraband. Then with a stronger Theraband. And finally
with dumbbells.

It was torturous! Especially since I was already in agony. But it ultimately
worked like a charm.

What was also essential was getting a very good (i.e., expensive and highly
adjustable) chair. And a Kinesis Contour keyboard. The Kinesis keyboard is the
pinnacle of ergonomic keyboard design.

~~~
N00dle4000
This is actually not op's pdf, but mine. A friend told me it was on the front
page here.

Reverse flies are, indeed, a great thing.

------
naner
Has anyone successfully fixed the computer guy posture? I see a lot of
prescriptions and speculation (Yoga, Egoscue, Alexander Technique,
weightlifting plans, stretching/foam rolling, etc) but zero evidence. At least
some empirical evidence with documented workouts and continuous before/after
photos would be nice.

Also this PDF just ripped images off the Internet. I recognized some of them
from youtube videos and books I have. The fact this was hastily put together
is another reason to question its accuracy or the (uncredited) author's
authority on the subject.

~~~
bcbrown
A few years ago I had the traditional "computer guy" posture, with slumping
shoulders and neck.

I began, for unrelated reasons, barbell strength training. Deadlifts, Squats,
and Presses. They have had a dramatic effect on my posture.

I believe that by spending time lifting barbells, I gained better control over
and awareness of my upper-back muscles, and that plus the improved muscle tone
means I no longer slump the way I used to do.

I'm 29 now, and have never had repetitive strain problems. I believe I'm less
likely to do so now than before I began strength training.

So, there's some anecdata.

~~~
jlees
If you already have upper crossed syndrome or otherwise stretched out lats and
tight pecs, deadlifting without paying attention to form will not only
exacerbate this but also cause you lower back strain. Glad to hear you avoided
this, but I would caution against anyone just picking up a barbell to cure
posture. Focus deeply on the motion and drawing your shoulderblades back at
all times especially on the lowering phase. It's far too easy to round on
deadlifts when going heavy, and therein lies danger for those already inclined
towards rounded shoulders.

~~~
bcbrown
Anyone who is interested at beginning strength training I'd encourage to pick
up a copy of Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength. It has very detailed
instructions of all the important movements.

------
reedlaw
I first came across most of this information from these two posts:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/ewrr0/writeup_on_th...](http://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/ewrr0/writeup_on_the_dreaded_anterior_pelvic_tilt_or/)
[http://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/exgiu/a_guide_to_fi...](http://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/exgiu/a_guide_to_fixing_computer_guy_posture_upper_body/)

I have been doing many of the exercises for some time now. Not only do they
feel good, I can really notice the difference they make. Many thanks to
Reddit-user troublesome.

------
N00dle4000
I'm the creator of the PDF. I just got a call from a friend who told me my
link was on here. Glad to see people like it.

Props for the document go to the fitness community on reddit, where a bunch
popular posts have inspired me to make this.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask them here.

------
dredmorbius
If you want to stabilize a structure, strengthen it.

As the article notes, weakness of the glutes and hamstrings, combined with a
_relative_ over-activation of quads and spinal erectors, is part of the
problem.

 _Most_ people with poor posture, especially past their mid-20s, are suffering
from underdeveloped musculature generally.

While several of the exercises noted are helpful at targeting muscle
activation, if you really want to develop the posterior chain, _and_ other
muscles, in a balanced fashion, focusing on major lifts is going to do far
more for you in less workout time than a bunch of small/isolated movements.

Deadlifts, squats, rows and chins, and yes, some mirror-muscle upper-body work
with bench and overhead press. The recently posted "Everything you know about
fitness is a lie" article ([http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/everything-
you-know-abou...](http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/everything-you-know-
about-fitness-is-a-lie-20120504)) details this pretty well.

For acute treatment, the PDF is handy, but you'd be far better off to invest
in _Starting Strength_. (<http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/about>)

And yes, foam rolling also helps.

~~~
_dps
I don't have an opinion on major lifts as I have fairly little experience with
them, but as a younger man I would have (uninformedly) considered them "not
right for me". What I _did_ find right for me was intense rowing (on a
machine), which I believe develops many of the same support muscles (but
doesn't lead to the hypertrophy-induced visible muscle growth the same way
lifts do, so if that's your goal rowing may not fit you).

For my tastes, I find rowing the perfect counterbalance to a sedentary
lifestyle. The full-body compression/extension cycle just _feels_ like the
direct opposite of sitting fixed at a desk all day. It may be psychological,
but it's very common for me to sense a relative weakening in my posture
control muscles if I miss a week of rowing for holidays or illness.

Related tip: if you find long (6+ hr) flights physically taxing (yes, first
world problems etc.), improving your posture control musculature can provide
noticeable relief. Even as a teenager I used to dread having to sit upright
and mostly fixed in place on transatlantic flights, but ever since I took up
rowing in my early 20s I almost never feel cramped or fatigued anymore even on
long haul 15+hr flights.

~~~
dredmorbius
Understand physiology and the body's response to training stimulus.

A rowing machine is cardio (and it's good cardio), but, other than some very
modest strength and hypertrophy response, you're not going to do much muscle
development. My experience with it and kettlebell swings suggests that they
may help with activation, particularly doing high-tension sets (damper set to
10, 20-40 pulls). Rowing pretty much is "the anti-desk", with the exception
that you're performing the activity in a seated position. The main target is
improving your cardiovascular performance, capability, and endurance.

What strength training does specifically is recruit muscle motor units
(bundles of muscle cells). These are differentiated largely by size and
response time, and activating a given bundle requires triggering its
controlling nerve. Higher loads trigger larger motor units. Stimulus is
usually classified by sets, reps, percent of one rep maximum load (1RM),
"tempo" (how long you take raising and lowering the weight), and power vs.
strength lifts ("Olympic" lifts are, confusingly, based on power, "powerlifts"
are, confusingly, based on strength).

The strength training concept of "specificity" (also given as "SAID": specific
adaptation to imposed demand) says that you'll get a training _response_ that
corresponds to the training _stimulus_. This means both the specific muscles,
and type of lift determine the training response. If you want stronger legs,
do squats, not bicep curls. If you want to get stronger, lift heavier (80-95%
1RM) weights for fewer reps. If you want endurance, lighter (30-50% 1RM)
weights for more reps (15-20 or so). Hypertrophy (increased mass) is maximized
by moderate resistance and reps maximizing time under tension.

Wikipedia's Strength Training article summarizes this nicely:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_training#Realization_o...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_training#Realization_of_training_goals)

------
polskibus
Interesting, some of the exercises are new to me. However I have yet to come
across a resource that presents both exercises and references to scientific
papers/resources proving that such and such technique is beneficial in medium
to long-term. Mere "common sense" can be really backfiring when it comes to
your spine. Does anyone know of such resource?

~~~
llimllib
The science, roughly speaking, doesn't exist. In fitness, the coverage of
science is generally very poor, and the wisdom and experience of trainers is
valued over the few, usually poorly-designed small-n papers that exist.

~~~
driverdan
That's not true. Yes, there are plenty of areas that have limited research or
small studies but overall there is more than enough to form scientifically
based methods of fitness. The best trainers know this and base their methods
on research and adjust as new research is published.

Perhaps this is what you meant and just didn't word it well.

~~~
llimllib
That is not what I meant, I do not agree with you.

Are there some interesting studies? Yes, a few, and some trainers are aware of
those. (I challenge you/anyone to provide a list of 5 great fitness papers!
For funsies, I'm not saying it can't be done.)

However, in general, we're all flying seat of our pants.

I'd love to see some examples of the bedrock research that you believe
trainers rely upon.

------
chillax
There was also some good articles on t nation some years ago:

(De)-Constructing Computer Guy
[http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_trai...](http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/deconstructing_computer_guy)

(De)-Constructing Computer Guy part 2
[http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_trai...](http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/deconstructing_computer_guy_the_other_23_hours)

Possibly nsfw imagery on the site.

~~~
unicornporn
Add to this:
[http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_trai...](http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_repair/neanderthal_no_more_part_i)

------
jessedhillon
I've been using Nike+ Kinect for 5~6 weeks now. It creates a workout plan for
you based on an assessment that you do at the beginning. I've found it to be
very challenging at times (when I push myself, e.g. by doing a second round)
and now I'm additionally impressed: a lot of the lower body stabilization
exercises on this PDF are also exercises that the game assigned to my workout
plan.

~~~
eru
As a geek who likes to exercise, you should also check out Starting Strength.
(It always comes up in discussions about fitness here.)

------
jongold
Some other useful links (I think I found them in the Reddit post)
[http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_trai...](http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/deconstructing_computer_guy)
[http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_trai...](http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/deconstructing_computer_guy_the_other_23_hours)

and a great video <http://www.magnificentmobility.com/>

------
chx
If we are talking about ergonomics, RSI and such, I am using a Kinesis
Freestyle with an Ascent -- vertical keyboard with the usual QWERTY layout.
And an Evoluent VerticalMouse. Bliss. I wish for some solution to offload my
thumb but other than that, this is lightyears ahead of any other setup. When
Leap Motion will be released I will buy one (or Leap Motion will send me a dev
copy, I just applied) and try to create an alternative "keyboard".

------
truemuscle
Some of the claims are just plain wrong. "Heavy lifting" doesn't make your
posture worse. If you squat with good technique, working up to heavy loads,
you'll have rock hard lower back stabilizers - cause otherwise, you won't be
able to squat heavy.

~~~
rimantas
Yeah. Also: "what you do in the gym only cements what you have"—what kind of
nonsense is this? If you go to a gym with a weak core and start to work out
with free weights you will fix it. How do you cement something that is not
even here?

~~~
vidarh
It's not things like the lack of core strength in itself that is a problem.
You are right that will improve.

But if you for example go to the gym with a tight posterior chain, you will
squat with a form that either hurts your lower back (been there, done that) or
makes you emphasise the wrong muscles (been there, done that) and leave you
with progressively bigger problems lifting correctly.

Similarly, it is very easy to get used to lifting with a form that is bad for
you because it feels easier, which often means emphasising the muscle groups
that already feels stronger. E.g. with a weak core a lot of people will lean
forwards in the squat and load the spine too much.

I got to about 60kg on my back squats before I kept slamming into a wall
because of how bad posture had severely limited my mobility and left me with
various weaknesses. I'd repeatedly either fail or hurt my back badly enough I
had to back off for 2-3 weeks. As a result after the second time I started
hesitating, and kept my weight low, but eventually I'd hit it again.

When I realized what was wrong, it took me 2-3 months of stretches and
modified exercises before I had loosened up enough that I flew past 100kg. 6
months later I did 160kg. Now my personal best is 187.5k (which I did at a
body weight of 98, so it's no amazing feat, but it's certainly a big
difference from struggling with 60%-65% of my body weight...).

~~~
rquantz
_But if you for example go to the gym with a tight posterior chain, you will
squat with a form that either hurts your lower back... or makes you emphasise
the wrong muscles... and leave you with progressively bigger problems lifting
correctly._

Not to say that what you ended up doing was wrong, but to me this just
indicates the need for a coach, or at least doing a lot more reading before
you start lifting. If you have a structurally weak and tight posterior chain,
you need to add romanian deadlifts to your program. Nobody (except Rippetoe)
advocates blindly following a program like like starting strength. You can
lift heavy while you correct imbalances, you just need to make sure the
exercises you're doing are correcting the imbalances you have.

~~~
vidarh
Romanian deadlifts was in fact one of the exercises I _was_ doing to try to
overcome the problem the first time around. It did nothing for me. Not saying
it can't help, but it compared to the speed I progressed at within weeks of
starting my stretches, I'll stick with the stretches.

And I did see a coach, who was also a qualified physiotherapist. What I was
recommended was pretty much the stretches in the linked article.

------
subwindow
This all looks unnecessarily complicated. I had really bad posture for most of
my life and I fixed it with two things: deadlifts and cable rows. After the
major muscular weaknesses are corrected (and those two exercises _will_
correct them), it's just a matter of habit correction- stand while you work,
walk with your stomach tight and shoulders back, don't let yourself slouch
when you sit, etc.

This ain't rocket science. You don't need to spend an hour a day with 10
different exercises. You can fix the muscular weaknesses in 30 minutes, once a
week.

~~~
vidarh
If your posture problem is related to too poor flexibility, deadlift will not
fix the problems. On the contrary, you can potentially put your back at severe
risk as your form will break down.

You don't need to spend an hour a day, but not nearly all posture issues are
down to muscular weakness.

For my part, I discovered my posture problems as a _result_ of deadlifts and
squats, that eventually got to sufficient weight that I was unable to
compensate or work around the underlying lack of flexibility and ended up
dangerously close to properly hurting my back.

~~~
dredmorbius
The key with deads (or any other lift) is to get the form right _first_.

Doing full ROM lifts _will_ improve your flexibility. I find this holds true
more for squats than deads, specifically (you're getting pressed down with the
bar, and have to retain proper back/spine alignment), but it's all useful.

If your form's breaking down, you're lifting too heavy.

What causes other than muscle weakness do you identify as causing posture
issues?

~~~
vidarh
If you're not flexible enough, you're not _able_ to do full ROM lifts with
proper form.

Once you're flexible enough to actually do the lifts properly, I agree you
will see it improving further. But if you're flexible to do the lifts
properly, you don't really have a problem.

When I started was not physically able at all to get reasonable depth in my
squats before I would either need to stop or curve my back, no matter the
weight. I also could hardly bend over while keeping my back firm - it'd be
like stretching a violin string along the back of my legs.

A couple of months of stretches from my pysiotherapist got my squats from
about 60kg to about 140kg in less than 6 months, after I'd spent the previous
6 months stalled completely because any attempt to go higher led to total form
breakdown, and a lot of time before that with abysmally slow progress.

~~~
dredmorbius
Doing squats (and, if necessary, _additional_ mobility work) will increase
your flexibility.

Doing light / BW / goblet squats is very low risk, and will help iron out your
form.

My point is that if your form is crap, _and_ you're using any added load, then
you're going too heavy. If your form is crap at BW (and adding a modest load,
45-95# for most trainees) doesn't iron that out (sometimes a bit of "bar
discipline" _does_ help sort out form), then, yes, work on form.

My experience is that you want to eliminate the obvious and simple stuff
_first_ (Occam's Razor), and that for most trainees I've seen, starting with
simple cues and light weights addresses form issues sufficiently. KISS.

------
andrewtbham
I have always had bad posture, and I have looked far and wide for how to
correct it. I think exercise is part of the equation, but I have also seen
some strong people with bad posture. Another thing that has helped me has been
the alexander technique. Before I learned about it, I didn't really understand
what good posture was.

here is an example about how to "hold your head up"

<http://www.freeyourneck.com/blog/?p=176>

------
wallflower
I have RSI. The benefit of it is that it forces you to not take typing
prodigiously for granted and by extension - to look at the long view of your
programming career. So many people glorify in pounding out code, working hard
- a 21st century pissing contest. Once you have symptoms of RSI, you are
forced to think different.

It does not happen all at once. Boiling frog, eta 5 years. The warning signs
are pain after a coding session, maybe a 2 or 3 on a scale of ten. However,
eventually it gets worse. And your youth will act as such that the pain goes
away. After a long weekend, you are recharged and re-healthy. That is a
falsehood. Eventually, it gets to the point where the pain never goes away, it
just subsides, constant background soreness, maybe on a 2 to 3 on a scale of
ten.

Don't take your typing ability for granted. RSI can be managed but never
completely cured.

The same traits that may make us good problem solvers (focus - as in not
getting up, breaking that slippery, seductive state called "Flow", OCD -
ignoring some things to focus, sometimes right, sometimes wrong on certain
aspects, sedentary habits (biking FTW)) can make RSI an eventuality for a few.

~~~
toxik
As a 22-year-old I have been fairly warned and for many reasons take breaks
every hour and have a walk around the room. RSI is just one of many reasons to
take breaks, people.

Edit: I stand up and code every now and then, and also use Dvorak!

------
boothead
I'll pitch in with one that hasn't been mentioned yet. The Egoscue method:
<http://www.egoscue.com/meetpete.php>. In particular Pete Egoscue's book Pain
Free.

I had a horribly seized neck a while ago where I couldn't look over my left
shoulder. This had come on after visiting a physio for a very stiff upper back
(a legacy of military service and lots of programming). I bought the book
after reading about it in the 4 hour body and did _1_ set of the exercises. My
neck had more range of motion after 25 minutes than it had for months and
several hundred pounds worth of physio appointments.

This and other information on self treating trigger points
(<http://saveyourself.ca/tutorials/trigger-points.php>) has got my back in
better shape than before I joined the marines!

------
w1ntermute
I don't get how people can use laptops all day long. The form factor is
totally unergonomic. I always use an external monitor, keyboard, and mouse
when at my desk.

~~~
mmagin
I find a laptop very comfortable in my lap, not on a desk.

~~~
w1ntermute
Just because you find it comfortable doesn't mean it's ergonomic. A laptop on
a desk is bad for your arms and hands, while a laptop on your lap is bad for
your neck and head. As explained in this document from Berkeley[0]:

> Unfortunately, the laptop’s compact design, with attached screen and
> keyboard, forces laptop users into awkward postures. When the screen is at
> the right height, the keyboard position is too high; and when the keyboard
> is at the right height, the screen is too low.

> Laptops pose less risk when used for short periods of time, but nowadays,
> many people use laptops as their main computer. _This creates an ongoing
> tradeoff between poor neck/head posture and poor hand/wrist posture._

In your case, you are simply avoiding poor hand/wrist posture at the expense
of having poor neck/head posture. However, having the laptop on your lap is
better than having it on a desk. But even then, it should only be used
occasionally, and not full-time.

0: <http://uhs.berkeley.edu/facstaff/pdf/ergonomics/laptop.pdf>

------
sgt101
For years I suffered with really nasty chronic back pain. I tried back
specialists, drugs, massage, exercise... Then my wife told me (I think it may
be a lie..) that the Australian Rugby League team did pilates, and so, my
masculine pride unimpaired I went and I did a session.

It is an instant cure. If you have a really good teacher (there are lots of
clowns out there, look for someone who is gentle and runs advanced classes as
well, then go to the beginner class) Make sure that you let them know that you
have issues, and don't be afraid to stop and miss exercises that you feel
uncomfortable with or worried about.

------
CKKim
I've not had any posture or RSI problems, but here comes that word: YET. A few
people have commented that whenever I stop typing I like to stretch my arms
right down to the fingertips and adjust my position on the chair, sometimes
getting up completely and straightening my clothes. It's an unconscious habit
so I find it hilarious when people point it out but that could be something
that has helped me.

These sets look very familiar to me as similar core exercises to ones I've
done as part of rowing and yoga, but there are a few new ideas here I can't
wait to try. Thanks!

------
pronik
Seeing that picture of a "computer guy" I see my opinion confirmed that
notebooks have killed more health than they brought productivity. Get a
docking station, a good display, some good input devices and your posture will
improve automatically.

PS. And don't get me started on the strain on the eyes by all those "vivid
colors" reflecting displays -- I still remember using a screen filter to avoid
reflections on an already matte display!

------
bjhoops1
I had this kind of posture as a teenager. When I started squatting 300+
pounds, I compounded my problem and wound up in physical therapy off and on
for three years. My PT had me do a lot of the exercises and stretches on this
list.

In short, if you've never addressed your own posture issues, consider doing
so! Back pain is worse than pain in the extremities because it is continuous
and affects everything you do.

------
delackner
If you are in your twenties and healthy, please learn from my mistakes. I
suffered from wrist pain and lower back pain. I used all sorts of ergonomic
keyboards, chairs, even a special back brace. Eventually I was seeing a
chiropractor and massage therapist once a week. None of that worked, because I
spent all my time sitting in a chair staring at a computer.

I started weight training and yoga, and my wrist and back pain disappeared. I
thought I was done and everything was fine.

But I was still sitting in a chair all day every day, and more than a decade
like that herniated a disc in my neck. The initial symptoms were a persistent
pain in my upper shoulder blade for months. The doctor said this would not
have happened if I had just got up once an hour, and he sees tons of desk
workers end up the same.

Since then I have seen some improvement by using a program to force me to look
away from the screen at intervals, and to get up once an hour.

My posture is still horrible, but now the remaining struggle is simply staying
aware enough to avoid bad habits (slouching, letting my head fall forward,
etc).

~~~
stevenwei
Thanks for sharing. This type of situation is what concerns me. Even with
regular exercise (lifting/running/yoga), I'm worried that the overall amount
of time spent sitting every day will lead to adverse consequences in 20 years.

When I first came across the idea of treadmill desks I thought they were
rather silly, but now I'm seriously considering getting one. They aren't cheap
though (unless you do a hacky DIY job).

------
philworth
I had a similar experience to henrik_w, though more around low back pain from
prolonged computer usage. I felt the crazy thing was that I was in good shape
and also knew how I should be sitting, and the importance of taking short
breaks from the computer. I just never did those things when I was
concentrating on my work.

I ended up creating a software solution that included break reminders but also
uses your webcam to check your posture and remind you whenever you sit in a
bad posture (or even a good one, since sitting rigidly in _any_ posture for
long periods is part of the problem).

It's not a substitute for exercise, but it is a simple, low-cost way to keep
good posture in mind throughout the working day, without being overly
intrusive. It's called Postureminder and there's a 30-day free download on my
website, <http://www.postureminder.co.uk>

Phil

------
chhunsguns
Here's another useful resource regarding posture and sitting [1] by Kelly
Starrett, who's probably well-noted in strength training circles for his
MobilityWOD project. He explains how to sit and provides guidance on several
related topics such as shoulder/hip mobility and hydration. He also
illustrates some massages and stretches you can do to take care of your _junk_
through hours of prolonged sit-and-keyboarding.

For what its worth, I've been following along with his MobilityWOD project [2]
for some time and it has immensely helped with my strength training pursuits.

[1] <http://youtu.be/kfg_e6YG37U> [2] <http://www.mobilitywod.com>

------
MattSayar
If we just follow the lifting guide posted a few days ago [1], wouldn't
"computer guy posture" fix itself?

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4971196>

~~~
vidarh
If your specific issues are due to muscular weaknesses, yes. If it's due to
reduced flexibility, then no. Chances are it'll be a bit of both.

Try bending over with your back in a slight upwards arch while keeping your
legs completely straight and together.

Can you get below 90 degrees? If not, your flexibility along your posterior
chain is poor. Can you effortlessly reach your toes with your fingers (you can
bend your back this time)? If not, same.

Strength training alone won't fix those. And in fact, that poor flexibility
will make it very hard to maintain proper form when lifting weights, and
you're putting yourself at greater risk of hurting yourself.

On the upside, only a couple of months of stretches is enough to see a
substantial improvement.

------
vsbuffalo
Here's a startup idea: a hip site with daily exercises targeted at people like
us. There should be two levels: no supplies and having basic weight set (so it
gives me the option of doing it at work on home too). You could track fitness,
and tie it to a mobile app which reminds you. I'm sick of fitness being geared
toward getting tone, losing weight, body building etc. I am just concerned
with living healthy, so I want a minimum workout.

~~~
philworth
It's not quite what you suggest, but <http://www.konkura.com> is run by my
brother - it lets people create fitness-related challenges (which can be
entire workouts or even workout schedules, or just a single exercise) to share
with friends. You can compete with people who have similar interests around
the world, or keep challenges private to just a circle of friends who have a
common fitness goal. There's a wide range of challenges already created by
fitness enthusiasts so there's always something new to do. Worth checking out.

------
lazyjones
If the hour-long sitting is the cause of the problems, why not fix them by
using height-adjustable sit-stand tables? They've become popular in our
office...

~~~
rimantas
hour-long standing brings other problems, alas.

~~~
eru
That's why you should take frequent breaks. And from my own experience, it's
way easier to take a mini break on a standing desk then when sitting down.

Removing even trivial hurdles can sometimes drastically impact behaviour.

------
awicklander
Same thing in fewer words: 'Do yoga.'

~~~
kennon
Actually this brings up one concern I've had for a while. I've been doing yoga
fairly regularly (2x a week) for about six years. I have no problem keeping up
with advanced classes, holding plank/bridge/wheel, can almost do a full split,
etc. Yet, I have pretty extreme APT. I don't really know where I'm going
wrong; I've tried similar exercise and stretching regimens in the past,
supplementing the yoga, but never seemed to get anywhere with them. As a
result, I feel like perhaps more direct strength training (squat, deadlift,
etc) might be worth a shot. Thoughts?

Also, is APT the same as lordosis or is there a medical distinction?

~~~
mamoswined
My experience with yoga is that it is not enough for serious structural
issues. For a strength-building workout, it is not systematic enough at most
schools. It also usually fails to correct the day to day movement problems at
the root of many problems.

I've done a lot of research into correcting my issues and it seems like this
is what is happening with me. After reading Mary Bond's New Rules of Posture
and Esther Gokhale's book, I realized that the way I do everything is pretty
much wrong. I walk wrong, sit wrong, lie down wrong, and stand wrong (which is
why a standing desk also didn't help). A great example is after implementing
what I thought were really healthy changes to my lifestyle- the standing desk
and walking to work, I developed an unpleasant heel pain and a rather ugly
callus on my right side. After reading the Bond book I figured out that it was
because that side is my dominant foot, but I was getting all my energy from
walking from the heel strike there, rather than pushing off from the non-
dominant foot through the hamstring/toes. Correcting that got rid of the pain
and also had the side effect that my rear is more toned. That's just one
example, and I'm not done with improving my posture, but it has made a great
difference in my life. I also have implemented more systematic weight training
(making sure I get ALL areas worked out) and core training (pilates). I still
do yoga for the mobility benefits. I also have seen a Rolfing and Feldenkrais
coach, but I think those services are generally over-rated and overpriced and
you can get similar benefits from taking an adult dance class. I would like to
try Alexander too.

------
ivan_ah
Amazing! I have been looking for this kind of exercise set for ages. Will try
tomorrow.

Thank you anikepant!

------
hakaaak
One problem I've had is uneven neck (and probably shoulder/back) muscle
development, because I don't sit staring and facing straight at the monitor.
This is a warning to those that are younger and haven't noticed this yet.

------
chsonnu
The exercises in the book '7 steps to a pain free life' saved my ass:

[http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Free-Life-Rapidly-
Relieve/d...](http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Free-Life-Rapidly-
Relieve/dp/0452282772)

------
Nick_C
For those with RSI problems, I used to get it very badly. I completely stopped
it by changing my mouse hand every several weeks. It only takes a few minutes
to get used to the new hand.

------
countessa
I had RSI a few years ago. Apart from paying attention to posture (I took up
tai chi to help with that), I changed to a dvorak keyboard layout which helped
a lot.

------
shoopy
This is serious stuff. I'm dealing with really demoralizing lower back issues
of my own, probably from years of crummy posture. Pay attention, kids.

------
malinens
Some stuff I don't understand fully because I am not native English speaker.
Can somebody recommend Youtube video instead?

~~~
pvdm
[http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/11/5-simple-
exerc...](http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/11/5-simple-exercises-
for-correcting.html)

------
martinced
40 years old here...

Although not everyone likes them I do recommend shelling $$$ for an Herman
Miller (or similar) chair.

The Mira seems to be great for the back. Me, I can't live without the
"pellicle mesh" of the Aeron so the Mira is a no go for me. Hence I bought an
Aeron with the adjustable posture fit (the new one, with the adjustable stuff
that gently "pushes" the low-end of your back).

I realize HN is filled with negativity and a lot of people are going to
criticize the Aeron (dot com symbol, not that ergonomic, bad for your health,
bla bla bla) but honestly if you know how to adjust it it's a great chair. You
hardly sweat in it and (when adjusted correctly), by pulling your arms behind
your head the chair gently falls in "relax-mode".

The 12-year warranty is great too. I use that and a HHKB Pro 2 as my keyboard.

~~~
jrockway
I'd like to dis-recommend Herman Miller for ergonomics. I bought an Embody
chair a few years ago and the adjustments suck. The Aeron is not much better.
They are both comfortable chairs, but they don't really conform to your body
the way the marketing literature wants to convince you that they do. (The
major problem with the Embody is that the arm rests tilt when you lean back,
meaning that they need to be readjusted if you lean back. And the adjustments
are in like 6 inch steps, so the adjustment is never very good. The lumbar
support is also garbage. The rest of the chair is very durable and
comfortable, however.)

Ultimately, you pay a lot of money for Herman Miller products that could be
spent on better ergonomic features instead.

At work I have a Teknion Contessa and I love it. It is infinitely adjustable
and very comfortable. I hardly ever think about my chair while at work. The
only problem is that the fabric is not very durable; mine is a year old and it
looks just awful. My Embody is much older and looks almost brand new.

------
IgorP
I have seriously been considering those stand-up workstation desks.

Some of these look kind of cool:
[http://www.amazon.com/s/?_encoding=UTF8&tag=produc05-20&...](http://www.amazon.com/s/?_encoding=UTF8&tag=produc05-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&field-
keywords=Standing%20desks&url=search-alias%3Daps)

