
Ask HN: Location-independent entrepreneurs, where do you live and why? - dave1619
If you&#x27;re a location-independent entrepreneur, please share where you choose to live and why.
======
bgroins
Amsterdam. As an American (or Japanese) citizen you can get a residency card
easily here if you start a business under the DAFT. You can also get a 30% tax
break for up to 8 years as a highly skilled migrant, which is good because the
highest effective tax rate here is 52%. Aside from those things, the city is
very clean, extremely safe, cheap groceries, tons of green space, and
extremely easy to navigate by bike or public transport. My wife and I came
from LA where none of those things are true. Going out to eat is also about
half as much as LA, and there is a lot of restaurant variety due to the
multicultural nature of the city. Cheap insurance for individuals with a
highly rated health care system. Downsides are the weather can be
unpredictable, and definitely cold and gloomy in the winter. Also high rents
in some popular areas, but that's probably true for most places. Overall
though, we're extremely happy with our choice and considering staying long
term. Also speaking only English is no problem.

~~~
camkego
Thank you for pointing out DAFT, that is pretty interesting. One question
about starting a foreign corporation, Do the penalties and fees of the IRS
regulations relating to US citizens owning a foreign corp. concern or worry
you? For example, a $10,000 a month penalty for failing to report ownership
interest in a foreign corporation. (Form 5471) This is the one thing that
really stops me from considering owning a foreign corp.

~~~
bgroins
I'm not a tax expert nor purport to be one, but I have a good US CPA and Dutch
tax person and leave it in their hands.

------
thatoneguy
Vancouver, WA just across the bridge from Portland. Native Oregonian but
mortgage on a condo downtown was less than $400/month, no state income tax &
my profit-making side project is better protected by WA state IP laws
(basically a copy of California's own time laws).

Worked for Google for many years, quit when I got a WFH job where I was
guaranteed an "office" in Washington state.

Nowadays, just hang out with the friends I grew up with when I'm not working,
saving money & hanging out with the wife (who also works from home).

Travel used to matter a lot but then I moved back home and realized I just
hated living in San Francisco and people are way more important to me
nowadays.

Basically the best thing ever and every morning I step out to get coffee &
feel legit thankful I got escape the Bay Area and get back to my native biome.

~~~
1_listerine_pls
What sucks about the Bay

------
aram
If you didn't check already, see NomadList[0] for summarized information on a
lot of cities. It provides a "score" in basic categories that would/could be
important for people working remotely.

[0] [https://nomadlist.com/](https://nomadlist.com/)

~~~
al_chemist
I've checked scores of few cities I've lived in and they look like they were
based on stereotypes, not on real experience.

~~~
ivm
Santiago scored 1 on "Gay friendly" despite same-sex unions are legal in Chile
and most people don't care (there are transgender and gay politicians).

2 on Weather (Mediterranean climate), 2 on Fun (huge developed city with all
sorts of entertainment).

------
tluyben2
Spain, in the mountains. I do coding and management which require only 'ok'
internet and I for sure am more productive here working on my mountain view
terras than in some office with other office views. When needed I fly to
clients or partners or meetings for a few days and a few times a year I fly to
partners and hang around for a month. I try to avoid offices so we usually
meet in nature hotel lobbies, hotel lobbies in general or bars and restaurants
to work or talk. Location does not matter a lot because if I have a phone or
skype for meetings and something to write code and docs on, I am fine. Have
been for 20+ years now.

~~~
angry-hacker
I'm also in Spain. In the mountains do you mean as a more or less hermit or
just somewhere really high altitude?

~~~
tluyben2
Compared to most I guess it is both: highest village in this region and I live
in a part from the village which has 40 people living in it: in winter less.

------
jasonkester
Just South of Paris, near Fontainebleau. Where they keep all the good
bouldering.

It's all about:

    
    
      - Choose the thing you like to do most
    
      - Find the absolute best place in the world to do that thing
    
      - Find a house there
    
    

It doesn't always work out though. I spent _years_ trying to find a place to
live that was walking distance from a good surf break in the sun. Can't be
done unless you're happy spending five million dollars on the house or are
willing to live on a dusty scrap of land in Central America where you need to
hire a guy with a gun to sit at the gate all night every night. Or want to
strand yourself on a little sand and mosquito island a day's boat ride from
Sumatra.

Fortunately, my (and my wife's) first love is climbing. We were worried we'd
quickly "climb out" any crag we moved to, but Fontainebleau has just over
20,000 problems so it'll be a few years before we can get to them all. And
they have proper French wine and baguettes and Paris 40 minutes away on the
train. Sorted.

But yeah, if you can pull this whole location independence thing off, I'd
highly recommend it.

~~~
sanswork
>I spent years trying to find a place to live that was walking distance from a
good surf break in the sun.

My wife and I just moved to Yamba, NSW which fits this pretty well. We're
~500m walk from 2 different beaches one of them a surf beach and about a km
from another surf beach. I don't surf(yet) myself but my friends that do are
all very excited to be in the area so apparently its pretty good here.

------
neebz
Peshawar, Pakistan.

It's one of the highest terrorist-hit cities of the world but my parents love
this place and are unwilling to move anywhere else. Due to their age (and lack
of better retirement facilities) I live with them.

~~~
jmickey
Kudos to you. I'm in a similar situation where while working remotely I have
decided to stay in my home town with family, so they don't age alone.

------
mbrock
Riga, Latvia right now.

Our rent is about 200 EUR but we're thinking of finding something even
cheaper... and considering living for free in a kind of legal squat that will
be a culture house where we could stay and do a few hours of helping out every
week.

I'm here because my girlfriend is here, it's cheap, and it's pretty close to
my family and friends in Sweden.

Riga is also small and cozy in a way that I seem to like.

In the future I have a hunch that I'd like to stay in Estonia. It seems like a
very forward-thinking country tech-wise and a great place to do something like
a blockchain business.

Or Romania... or Holland... or Barcelona...

~~~
lucaspiller
Vilnius, Lithuania

Same reasons mostly, except the city is having a big push to make the city a
regional tech hub. There are already quite a few startups here such as Wix,
Trafi, Vinted, TransferGo and bigger companies like Barclays employ over 1,500
IT staff in the city.

The city is small but has enough going on. It has a young vibe, as there are
lots of students around. Plenty of cafes you can sit in all day and use the
wifi. Public transport is good and taxis are cheap (phone or use an app to
book them though: ETaksi, Taxify or Uber), or if you'd rather drive there are
two car sharing schemes CityBee and Spark.

Oh and internet speeds... I have 100/100 fiber at home for €10/month (there is
also a 600/600 option). Ping times to London are 40ms.
[http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/5458602528](http://www.speedtest.net/my-
result/5458602528)

Only negative would be winter. If you like sub-zero (C and F) it's fine. As a
digital nomad just escape to somewhere else then. Summers are nice though,
around 25c - 30c and there are lots of lakes for swimming if it gets too hot.

~~~
mbrock
Cool, I'd love to visit Vilnius and Lithuania, and probably will in the near
future.

------
apatters
Bangkok, because it offers all the amenities of a major city at less than half
the cost. It has world class restaurants, nightlife that never stops, good
public transport, and endless beaches an hour away. I traveled extensively and
lived in the US and Australia before settling down here but I like big cities
and there aren't a lot of nice ones like this where you can get a luxury condo
with maid service for $1,000/mo.

~~~
jordansmith
Are you a US citizen, or Aus?

How do you deal with the visa?

I want to move to thailand for an unknown amount of time but the visa seems
like more than I would care to deal with. Don't want to have to do visa runs
and all of that.

~~~
pandler
It's easy enough to take Thai language classes and get a student visa in
Thailand, though they appear to be getting more strict with their checks to
validate that you are actually learning Thai. I say that, because some people
just get the student visa and never actually take the classes.

You can also get a student visa (in Chiang Mai at least) for hand-to-hand
combat training with the military police. You just take two lessons a week on
Saturday and Sunday afternoons for two hours.
[http://chiangmaibuddy.com/services/chiang-mai-visa-
services/...](http://chiangmaibuddy.com/services/chiang-mai-visa-
services/12-month-hand-to-hand-combat-education-visa/).

You're spot on though - doing visa runs all the time gets old fast.

~~~
apatters
I believe that in Bangkok the Thai language schools currently require 8 hours
of study a week to qualify for a student visa, which is more than it used to
be but is still incredibly lenient. In the provinces I hear the requirements
are even lower. Anyone who intends to stay here for more than a year without
learning at least basic Thai is shooting themselves in the foot anyway IMHO.

~~~
pandler
If I remember correctly, I think it was 6hr/week in Chiang Mai. About 40%
confident about that number.

------
aorth
Sofia, Bulgaria (my wife is Bulgarian). Working remotely as a sysadmin, I push
code to GitHub and do server maintenance from coffee shops and my couch.
Fantastic internet in Bulgaria. Very cheap, awesome food, beautiful mountains
here. Language a bit of an issue with older people and outside the capital.

~~~
59nadir
Are you learning Bulgarian, though? It's not a terribly hard language and it's
generally a positive things to the locals if you speak it, even if you have a
terrible accent.

~~~
aorth
Да, аз уча български език. Сега мога да говоря малко. (Yes, I'm studying
Bulgarian language. Now I'm able to speak a bit). Learning to read/write
Cyrillic has opened many doors, and even though I only speak like a five-year-
old child, I can understand much more contextually.

------
adrianh
I moved to Amsterdam with my wife and kid eight months ago.

(I'm American, from Chicago, and I run Soundslice, soundslice.com.)

We chose Amsterdam because:

* The DAFT program makes it easy for American business owners to get a Dutch visa.

* Everybody speaks English (which is a double-edged sword, because it's tough to learn/practice Dutch!).

* The biking is second-to-none. I'm spoiled for life.

* It's safe. I feel much safer than the U.S.

* It's beautiful.

* Great scene for Django music (gypsy jazz), which I play.

* Easy travel to other parts of Europe.

* It's very international -- in day-to-day life I meet people from all over Europe and the world. A very cool experience (especially for an American).

* Liberal policies make for a culture that we personally agree with more, even compared to liberal Chicago.

As for weather, people complain about it -- but it's better than Chicago. So
it's a net win. :-)

------
rihegher
Libourne, France

You can rent a 110m2 house for around 800 euros a month in a small town 30
minutes away from Bordeaux by car or train. The town is nice and getting
better with new projects coming to make it more attractive for wine tourists
(Saint Emilion is 10 minutes drive from it). There is a train station where
you can get 5 trains per day to get to Paris in 3 hours. There is High school
and hospital and all what you need for basic stuff, and if you can't find
something you can still go to Bordeaux to get what you want.

I live there with my wife and kids mainly because it's cheap and not too far
from our families and friends and because we wanted to get a not too small
house (by french measure) with a nice garden for our kids in a nice area. As I
see more and more people from Paris coming here so I think we made the right
choice.

------
gwbas1c
Can you define what a "location-independent entrepreneur" is? Does it mean
running a business where everyone is a telecommuter? Perhaps running a
business that depends heavily on outsourcing, or even a one-man (no employees)
business?

I do know someone who ran a business where he subcontracted all work to people
overseas and basically functioned as a technical manager. He lived in the
mountains outside of Silicon Valley. When I saw how he interacted with his
friends, and the things he did, "why he lived where he lived" was obvious: He
had lots of friends in the area, and was an active participant in the local
culture.

It helps that he's close enough to a tech hub that he can drive in any time he
needs; although a daily commute would be prohibitive.

I've also signed up for online source control and bug tracking (before Github
really "won,") and found that it was a one-man business run by a friend-of-a-
friend in Hawaii. The reasons for the owner living in Hawaii, or any area
where there's a lot of recreation, are probably obvious.

As far as why people choose to live where they live; the usual reasons apply:
Close to friends and family, lots of recreation, culture, and reasonable cost
of living. Choosing a place within a large radius around a tech hub might also
be important. For example, a ski bum could live in Tahoe or New Hampshire, but
still get to Silicon Valley or Boston when needed.

------
lemming
Nelson, New Zealand. Beautiful nature all around me, the town is just big
enough and it's a really awesome place to have a small kid. My folks are a
short trip away so we see them every month, and the pace of life here is
totally relaxed.

Downsides: basically zero tech scene, and it's getting pretty expensive these
days.

~~~
_kyran
Nelson's lovely, but I can't get over Wanaka as the place to be in NZ. I've
only visited there a few times, but I always leave thinking 'this would be a
great place to settle down'.

~~~
tankenmate
Wanaka is really beautiful; for people who haven't been there you can get a
reasonable idea of what it is like by watching almost any of the outdoor
scenes from Lord of the Rings / Hobbit movies. I first went to Wanaka in '94
long before the rest of the world discovered it. Warbirds over Wanaka is great
too if you're into WWII aircraft (and others besides). The skiing is great
there too (Cardrona, Treble Cone). And Hilary's first major ascent was Mount
Aspiring which is about 1.5 hours drive by 4x4 from Wanaka.

------
ivm
Valdivia, Chile

It's a cute small city with all the necessary services (shopping, restaurants,
healthcare, optical fiber with 10-15mbps to California) and a vibrant
community created by hundreds of students from local universities.

There're a coworking space, small tech meetups, and game jams. You can also
take a one hour flight to Santiago for bigger tech events and meetups.

Renting a good house is $600-700 a month, the climate is mild (only rains in
winter). Average lunch is $6-8, we spend about $350 for food and $150 for
health insurance for 2 persons. Chile is quite safe in general but here we can
walk in night without any worries. The city is trying to be bike-friendly, it
just got some bike lanes.

Startup and business visas are too complicated here but you can get a
"rentista" visa for any kind of passive foreign income or work visa for a
contract with a foreign employer. There're many expats coming, we know a team
from the US building a tech village near the city.

Downsides: you will need to learn Chilean Spanish (though many young people
know English, especially developers), there's smoke pollution in winter in the
evenings since wood stoves are used for heating.

------
dwyer
Taipei, Taiwan.

* Clean and modern.

* Very safe.

* Nice people.

* Excellent public transportation.

* Good housing (relatively inexpensive).

* Great restaurants (extremely inexpensive).

* Low sales tax.

* Mandarin is a fun language to learn.

Also, $150-200 buys you a round-trip ticket to almost any other major city in
Asia, so experiencing a new culture is just another way to spend a weekend.
Taiwan's Eva Air and China Airlines are also excellent.

~~~
jklepatch
Living in Taipei also and I approve everything mentioned above :) Plus:

\- Taipei is a green city \- easy to meet interesting people \- Very foreigner
friendly \- Good and cheap healthcare

~~~
frrp
I agree, Taipei is a nice place to live and Taiwan is an amazing island. But
do you work completely remotely (for a US company)? Do you have any experience
with local businesses or starting something in Taiwan? I've lived in Hong Kong
and I'm interested in your insights. My email is in my profile.

------
cperciva
Assuming that by "location-independent entrepreneur" you mean that I _could_
run my business from anywhere (as opposed to "digital nomad", referring to
someone who _does_ run their business from all over the world): Vancouver,
Canada. Because it's my home; it's where most of my friends live; and... well,
if you've ever lived in Vancouver you'll understand why I don't want to live
anywhere else.

------
crdb
Singapore.

Aside from the obvious ease of doing business bit, I like the rule of law,
weather, food, infrastructure, people and values (both Singaporean, and the
expat community), low COL (for a developed country), international outlook,
English as first and main language, ease of flying to cool places including
the PRC and Japan, and the jungle in the middle that you can trek in any time
also has a place in my heart. It's a great "home".

~~~
davej
> low COL

It's been a few years since I've been there but is that really the case? I've
heard the rent is close to SF level and buying a car is supposed to cost a
small fortune in taxes alone.

Just from walking around and eating out there, it seemed more expensive than
any European city I've been to.

~~~
rorykoehler
Rent: It's coming down at the moment. Depending on how far you're willing to
commute it can be very reasonable.

Car: You can live here without a car. The public transport is exceptional and
for times when you must go quickly/directly taxis are dirt cheap.

I can eat a decent quality filling lunch of Hainanese Chicken Rice for
$2.50SGD (about €1.70 or $1.90USD) in my local hawker, prices I have never
found in Europe unless you are willing to eat potentially hazardous materials.

It's true you can easily spend hundreds of dollars eating out if you like
however there are plenty of options to keep expenses down. In CBD I can get
lunch for less than $5 but usually spend around $8.

------
_kyran
Australia.

Foremost because it's always been 'home'. I grew up here and it's where my
family and friends are.

There's plenty of space to explore and enjoy outside. I love having so many
great beaches, places to mountain bike and go bush walking.

There's clean drinking water, unpolluted air, have a pretty decent healthcare
system and healthy work culture. Speaking of culture, I'm yet to come across
another culture that's as laid back and easy going.

At the same time, I take advantage of being 'location-independent' and travel
frequently. In the past year I've explored Vietnam by motorbike, been surfing
in central Australia, gone skiing in New Zealand, road tripped around
California, Nevada & Arizona as well as spending some time just soaking up the
culture in Japan.

~~~
apapli
Surfing in central Australia?

~~~
_kyran
Central on the east coast (north of Sydney) :)

There's not much going on in the middle of the country.

~~~
stephenr
> Central on the east coast (north of Sydney)

I don't think anyone ever in the history of the planet has described that
location as "Central Australia", before you.

~~~
_kyran
My bad, was referring to the Central Coast :)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Coast_(New_South_Wales...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Coast_\(New_South_Wales\))

------
gfwilliams
Oxfordshire countryside in England. I tried working from a small flat in
London and I got totally burnt out. I like being able to look out the window
and see trees, fields and a river - I've been working full-time for myself for
7 years now, I'm personally finding it's hugely important to be able to keep
stress under control and get some perspective... and for me, being able to get
outside really helps.

Ideally I'd move to Wales where it's cheaper and prettier, but realistically I
need to be able to get to London and airports relatively quickly, as well as
to not be too far from friends and family.

------
grillwork
Vermont, because if you've ever been here you'd know there's no place like it.
I like living in the middle of no where and having access to great outdoor
activities, great food, and great place to raise a family. Not to expensive,
but not cheap, and the extreme winters keeps the riff raff away...

~~~
gwbas1c
I'm trying to talk my wife into Vermont. What kind of business do you run?

------
petercooper
I live in the backest of backwaters in England, rural Lincolnshire. We're a
company of 10 but most of our customers are in SV and we work in $.

The why: My wife's from here and I've grown to like the culture and how much
further money stretches. Luxury outside of London versus living in a shoebox
is no real contest for me (but is a legitimate one for others).

~~~
boothead
Must be pretty handy to be paid in $ around now :-)

------
agentgt
If the wife didn't have a job and didn't like being close to family I would
not mind living in Nice France. I was just there recently (luckily before the
attack) and loved it. It is like San Diego but with French+Italian cuisine and
warmer water. That being said San Diego, Miami, Vermont, and Colorado are some
solid choices.

------
smt88
I live in Atlanta. The cost of living is low, quality of life is great, and
there are tons of local companies to sell to. The culture here is to
prioritize work-life balance[1], and it honestly seems to make everyone
happier and more productive.

As far as startup culture, people really admire and encourage lean
bootstrapping, which results in far more B2B companies than B2C. We do have an
incubator[2] working to change that, but I actually prefer it this way. The SV
culture of equating raising money with success is completely opposite of my
own beliefs.

1\. [http://www.fastcompany.com/1840856/how-southern-tech-
workers...](http://www.fastcompany.com/1840856/how-southern-tech-workers-
build-booming-businesses-and-still-go-home-5)

2\. [http://www.switchyards.com](http://www.switchyards.com)

------
garyclarke27
Anyone in Cascais Lisbon? I'm fortunate to have location independent income,
following the Brexit result which disgusted me, I will definitly leave within
the UK in the next 6 months. Portuguese tax looks v good for entrepreneurs,
only €500k investment (includes house) required to get EU passport, great
climate, cheap living, great food, large city close by with access to Tech
Talent, international private schools for young daughters. Thought about
Malaga aswell but wealth tax puts me off and Spaniards seem less freindly
towards Brits. Also thought of Berlin or Munich but they are more expensive
and have more immigration pressures, France Italy too anti- business, so
Lisbon seems best option to me. Any comments or critiques of my logic would be
appreciated, it's a very big decision after all!

~~~
jayjay1010
I'm in Cascais, ive been navigating the NHR program since I arrived last year,
its a loverly place, lisbon has a cool scene, they hosting websimmit this year
which will put it on the map totally. You can get me at this address support /
linkaudit.co.uk

------
cookiecaper
No one has mentioned it yet, so if I could ask, what about Hong Kong?

I'm an American living state-side but I have done some research on relocating
to Hong Kong. I work from home with a salary that would be at least semi-
respectable anywhere in the US (though of course not luxurious in high CoL
cities), but it doesn't seem like it would be enough to furnish a home or
lifestyle in HK that is anything like what we have now.

Immigration seems like it will be a problem without employer sponsorship, and
employment opportunities for programmers look terrible (though, to be fair, I
don't know much Cantonese yet so I can't search in the native language).

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that the only realistic way to get
there would be a career shift into finance and specifically targeting the type
of jobs that often end up being exported to HK (along with luxurious
compensation and relocation packages).

Anyone here run a biz from HK and want to share some details? I see several of
its neighbors have been mentioned: Singapore, Taipei, Bangkok, but no HK. Is
that just luck of the draw or is there a reason that entrepreneurs avoid HK?

I have an indirect acquaintance, someone I just barely know enough to follow
on Facebook, who opened an office in HK. He's been there for 3 or 4 years now,
but just announced he and his family are relocating over the border into
Shenzen to open another office there (as I understand it, his HK office is
still operating, and, for the record, his company primarily does Wordpress
sites). I thought this was interesting. I don't know the guy well enough to
ask him directly about what motivated him, but is this something people are
seeing a lot of? From my reading, it sounds like the only benefits of Shenzen
are cheaper rent and more protections from hostile Western governments (HK
more likely to extradite and/or honor civil judgments issued by Western
countries than mainline China), and there appear to be many additional
limitations despite Shenzen's status as a Special Economic Zone.

~~~
ddeck
I do. I think the most important question is: If your business is truly
location independent and you don't have other reasons to be in HK, why choose
to locate it in the city with the world's most expensive real estate?

There are many things I love about HK, but the control of the property market
by a cartel of local families permeates every aspect of life.

There's zero sales tax in HK and goods are manufactured nearby, and yet a nice
TV from a retail electronics store will cost you double what you'd pay in the
US, because they need to cover the rent.

Even something simple like finding a cafe to sit down, enjoy a coffee and read
the paper becomes a nearly impossible challenge at times given the inability
of a cafe to support its exorbitant rent from customers spending an hour
sitting around.

To put some numbers on it, the average rental per per square foot at the high
end is $0.55/hour [1]. Assuming you're serving customers 12 hours a day, and
you have nothing but customer seating, with one square meter per person,
that's $12/hour in rent alone for every seat.

Without zoning, the highest bidder wins. So food and beverage have been pushed
up into the high floors of office buildings where rents are cheaper, and the
pedestrian areas are instead lined with jewelry and watch shops.

Although HK has a lot of nice forest (as only 25% of the land is developed),
within the developed areas, this is what passes for a park:

[https://www.google.com/maps/@22.2753215,114.171373,3a,37.5y,...](https://www.google.com/maps/@22.2753215,114.171373,3a,37.5y,34.71h,82.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6cBywtl7PMmCt1ZrbOlaOQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)

There are many great things about HK, but it's important to be aware of the
space issue.

[1] [http://www.mingtiandi.com/real-estate/china-retail-real-
esta...](http://www.mingtiandi.com/real-estate/china-retail-real-estate-
news/hks-causeway-bay-still-ranks-2nd-worldwide-for-retail-rents-despite-
downturn/)

~~~
cookiecaper
Thanks for your answer. Can you elaborate on your general experiences in HK?
Are you a native or a foreigner? Are you running a business or working for
someone? What are conditions like generally?

I'll admit that legal troubles are what initially got me interested in HK. A
corporation with a lot of influence in the U.S. threatened to sue my startup
for violations of the CFAA, thereby shutting us down. I started to look for
other places in the world where the law was less ambiguous and from where I
may be able to operate my business.

The telecommunications law in HK seems to make it somewhat-explicitly more
legal there, though it's still probably not a slam dunk. We have to personally
relocate, can't just re-incorporate in HK, because this company will sue me in
the U.S. if I resume operations. Relocating a) provides an additional layer of
indirection between American court systems and my personal assets and freedom,
and HK specifically makes further retreat from Western influence more
feasible, should it become necessary, given its proximity to PRC and other
countries that are not US lapdogs; and b) makes it more difficult for an
American court to establish personal jurisdiction over my activity, though I
have no doubt that BigCo's lawyers would get it easily.

HK is a modern, high-tech city with fast internet and easy access to
everything, including a lot of the brands that we're used to in America (I
understand the HK versions may be substantially different). It's reported to
be very safe and very clean. English is an official language (though I read
that only about 5% of locals have more than the most basic proficiency in it),
which would make it easier to operate than other areas of Asia as signage in
English is available, official business can be conducted in English, etc. It's
a great base for further exploration of the region. There is a large and
apparently vibrant community of American and English expats. There's a culture
of hard work and there are very low taxes. The weather is not necessarily
ideal, but reasonable. I also believe that there would be developmental
benefits for my children, including but not limited to the opportunity to
fully immerse in Cantonese.

In the course of my research, I learned that Snowden's first preference for
refuge was Hong Kong, and it's easy to see why. Singapore is probably the only
other comparable candidate. Europe is out of the question in general due to
their social and political stances, but it has even worse computer access laws
than America if you can believe it.

Realistically I understand that HK is not a practical refuge with regard to my
specific legal issues. There's nowhere in the world I could go and be safe
from the wrath of one of the world's largest and most recognizable companies.
In any modern country, they'll easily outlawyer me, and the laws on these
matters are not completely unambiguous; it'd take me millions of dollars to
mount a defense, and even then, there's a substantial likelihood that they
would prevail.

In any developing country, the officials will be far too easy to buy off, and
most likely all this company would have to do is ask, because the officials
would much rather have their goodwill than mine. Look at the Pirate Bay guys;
even though what they were doing was completely legal under Swedish law, the
US State Dept pushed for their prosecution at the behest of a cartel of large
companies, Sweden held a kangaroo court and convicted them, they fled to
Cambodia/Laos/Thailand (basically the only countries with computer access that
don't extradite on command from Western nations) and still eventually got
caught at border crossings and sent back home to serve their time. Moral of
the story appears to be that if BigCo wants your life screwed up badly enough,
they will relentlessly pursue until it's done, and petty things like the laws
of the nation-state are not relevant. Ultimately, money talks, no matter where
you live.

I also don't really want to become an effective exile from my own home
country, which is what would happen even if there was a country that would
shelter a little person like myself. Criminal charges are possible under the
CFAA and there would be an arrest warrant issued if a criminal case was
brought, probably meaning I'd get arrested at the first American border stop.
There would certainly be a standing civil judgment against any assets I own
within American boundaries, which means I would never be able to have a bank
account or own a home without resorting to identity theft. Not good stuff, and
my little business is absolutely not worth all of that.

Even though I understand that there is nowhere on Earth that would allow my
business to resume operations, after the research I've done, I still believe
it'd be good for my family to spend a few years in Hong Kong for the reasons
enumerated above. I continue to be interested in learning as much as I can
from people who have experience there, especially experience with the
entrepreneurial scene and/or raising a large family as an expat.

~~~
ddeck
_HK is a modern, high-tech city with fast internet and easy access to
everything, including a lot of the brands that we 're used to in America (I
understand the HK versions may be substantially different). It's reported to
be very safe and very clean. English is an official language (though I read
that only about 5% of locals have more than the most basic proficiency in it),
which would make it easier to operate than other areas of Asia as signage in
English is available, official business can be conducted in English, etc. It's
a great base for further exploration of the region. There is a large and
apparently vibrant community of American and English expats. There's a culture
of hard work and there are very low taxes. The weather is not necessarily
ideal, but reasonable. I also believe that there would be developmental
benefits for my children, including but not limited to the opportunity to
fully immerse in Cantonese_

I have no input on your legal woes, but your points above are pretty accurate.
It's a very easy, safe (excluding the air pollution) and convenient place to
live. The only point I'd disagree with is in raising a family there, but I
imagine that's a personal preference. I'd also suggest that Mandarin would be
immensely more useful for your children than Cantonese.

I don't want to turn this into a discussion, so i wont reply here again, but
I'd direct you to the following popular forum for expat families here, which
should contain a lot of relevant information and where you can ask questions
of other HK expats:

[https://geoexpat.com/](https://geoexpat.com/)

------
oriettaxx
Greece, Dodecanneso.

Why? maybe the best sailing area in the med (we live aboard a 11mt old/cheap
sailing boat), cheap, easy, great weather, great & cheap internet (mobile)
everywhere. Winter not aboard anymore (electricity is getting too expensive),
so maybe will join some of you in wintertime

------
forcer
Andorra, small country in the middle of Pyrenees. Beautiful mountains with
decent skiing in winter, all year around nice sunny weather, great food,
almost all homes have fibre to home, close proximity to Barcelona. Cost-wise
very affordable + only 10% income tax.

On the flip side there is no tech ecosystem or it can sometimes be a bit
boring, you need to travel to BCN to get your culture fix :) It can also be a
bit hard to get out since closest airport is BCN.

~~~
angry-hacker
Do you manage to live there speaking only Castellano or is Catalán necessary?

------
bemmu
Tokushima, Japan.

Not a particularly inspiring environment, besides the good beaches and view of
the mountains. Non-existent developer community. Sufficiently sized city
(200k) to have everything you need. Fun festivals.

For our family of two adults and a baby, our living cost is very roughly $3000
/ month. Biggest cost is my health insurance, second highest expense is rent,
our place is $720 / month. You need a car to survive.

At first it seemed that taxes would be much cheaper than Finland, but actually
there are many varieties of fees and when you add them all up Japan is about
the same. Putting a child through the schooling system would tip that in favor
of Finland, where they actually pay you to study.

I wrote this ages ago, been meaning to update it: [http://www.bemmu.com/what-
it-costs-to-live-in-japan](http://www.bemmu.com/what-it-costs-to-live-in-
japan)

~~~
panorama
Hey Bemmu! A couple questions after reading your blog post:

1\. Any noticeable societal differences between living in Tokushima and Tokyo?

2\. Assuming you are still renting, do you eventually plan to purchase your
own property in Japan?

It seems property costs outside of Tokyo are really cheap. I've been
contemplating moving near Kamakura as it has a beach and it's still reasonably
close to Tokyo.

------
samsonradu
Bucharest, Romania

Being Romanian, it wasn't really a tough choice, having family and friends
here. Quite happy with the quality of life, cost of living and income taxes.
The city has been changing for the better in the past 10 years, feeling very
cosmopolitan these days and open to foreigners.

------
personlurking
Lisbon

\- Sunny most of the year

\- Small EU capital but lots to do, beautiful cities countrywide

\- Walkable

\- Almost all young people speak fluent English

\- Cheap (though this is slowly changing)

\- Very multicultural (if you know where to look)

\- I rent a big room w/ an amazing view of the city and my total monthly bills
are under $600 (includes going out several times per week).

------
pandler
I've been popping around quite a bit recently. Some recent destinations in no
particular order: Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia, Korea, USA, Australia, India,
Kenya, South Africa, Germany, Norway, New Zealand. I stay for a few months
(usually 2-6 months) at a time and move on.

Currently in Bali because it's cheap, the weather is nice, I'm right on the
beach, there are solid coworking + cafe options, and the Balinese people +
culture + architecture are absolutely splendid.

~~~
aaren
You mind emailing me (in profile)? I'm looking for some Bali specific info -
just want to work and surf basically :)

~~~
pandler
Check your inbox

------
matt4077
Berlin, because it's where my social life is, with a week/month working
somewhere else (Barcelona, Rome, Istanbul ...) when it gets too cold or
boring.

------
philip1209
Can you clarify what you mean by "location-independent"? Do you imply that the
person is traveling, or does it mean that the team is all remote?

~~~
dave1619
By "location-independent" I mean a person doesn't have to be in a certain
location to run their business. Meaning, they can run their business from
anywhere.

------
grantcox
Phnom Penh, Cambodia. My wife's work requires her to work abroad, and this is
the post that made sense for our family and her career. It's a nice enough
place to live and work, very cheap, all modern conveniences are available,
great expat community. We'll stay for a couple more years, then move somewhere
else (she gets re-posted every 2-3 years).

~~~
hndude
Do you mind sharing what your wife does? I was recently in Phnom Penh and
really liked it.

------
omginternets
Paris

It's important that the time I _don 't_ spend working be fulfilling -- a value
that Parisians all seem to share.

Cheap (if not free) museums, cultural events, and small gatherings in which
people talk about life are what keep me here.

------
Mz
I am in California for health reasons. The dry climate and low levels of
ragweed are good for me.

I like California for a lot of reasons, but the deciding factor is my health.

------
slederer
Austria and San Francisco, as we have office locations there. I'm splitting my
time every month between the two locations.

------
jimaek
Krakow, Poland. Because Poland is one of the very few EU countries with low
enough business requirements to get a residence.

------
gspyrou
Thessaloniki , Greece . Because no other place can match the beaches of
Chalkidiki [inside joke for Greek readers :)].

------
cpplinuxdude
Marbella: beach. :)

------
known
Tokyo

------
tajen
Home. In Lyon, France, because my friends are the most important asset.

I've also chosen my coworking space ("Ecoworking") based on the awesomeness of
the community and the variety of entrepreneurs (NGOs, architects, book
writers, motion designers, etc). I'm a software editor.

If it were only for the quality of living, I'd be in the south of France
(Nice), but the coworking space I met there wasn't friendly. Besides, the cost
of living is much lower in Lyon, notably because the car isn't necessary.

~~~
bbradley406
As an American who hadn't been out of North America until 10th grade, my
student exchange to Lyon was very enjoyable and showed me how absurd life can
be in America sometimes.

The beautiful old architecture paired with modern public transit made it an
excellent city for adventures. We could be anywhere we wanted via bike,
scooter, skateboard, and metro in almost no time, and there was so much to
see. Coming from living in a car-centric US suburb, it was extremely
liberating.

One of my fondest memories was when my exchange student was here in the
states, and we were eating at an Applebees. The waitress took his 3/4 empty
soda glass away, and he swore at her in french. She just shrugged and returned
with a free refill. His jaw just dropped since drinking that much soda, and
free refills, was totally foreign to him.

