
Apple Lays Off 200 Employees from Autonomous Car Unit - tmp092
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/24/apple-lays-off-over-200-from-project-titan-autonomous-vehicle-group.html
======
chx
Maybe Apple doesn't want to pursue a dream which, as far as we know, can only
have a limited outcome? They don't really like such compromises in products.
Check this:

[https://medium.com/s/story/self-driving-cars-will-always-
be-...](https://medium.com/s/story/self-driving-cars-will-always-be-limited-
even-the-industry-leader-admits-it-c5fe5aa01699)

> Waymo’s CEO, John Krafcik, has admitted that a self-driving car that can
> drive in any condition, on any road, without ever needing a human to take
> control—usually called a “level five” autonomous vehicle—will basically
> never exist. At the Wall Street Journal’s D.Live conference, Krafcik said
> that “autonomy will always have constraints.” It will take decades for self-
> driving cars to become common on roads. Even then, they will not be able to
> drive at certain times of the year or in all weather conditions. In short,
> sensors on autonomous vehicles don’t work well in snow or rain—and that may
> never change.

Or read [https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/the-dream-of-
driverless-...](https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/the-dream-of-driverless-
cars-is-dying/) or any number of "sobering up" articles from last year.

~~~
pwthornton
I'd like to point out that what he says here about autonomous vehicles and the
limits of their sensors applies to humans too. It is just socially acceptable
to drive in averse conditions with limited visibility, and if you hit another
car, person or something else, you just blame it on the weather. It's not
socially acceptable for an autonomous vehicle to just wing it in bad
conditions.

I find it curious that we are going to hold autonomous vehicles to a perhaps
impossibly high standard while we also hold people to barely any standards at
all.

Think about this: If you are in an advanced autonomous vehicle and you get a
warning that conditions are so bad that the sensors can no longer see well
enough to drive and that you should take over, should you really take over or
should you stop driving?

~~~
013a
One of the biggest advantages humans have is that humans can take risks. We
have _agency_. Computers cannot take risks; not because they cannot be
programmed to take risks, but because they are programmed by huge corporations
with massive, centralized liability.

This is why level five autonomous cars will never exist. It's not a technical
problem; it's a political one.

Its easy for someone on hackernews to say "maybe you shouldn't be driving if
the car can't"; try saying that to a single mother working as a third-shift
nurse, just trying to make ends meet, who's patients will suffer if she
doesn't get to work. Try saying that to a technician who needs to get to a
downed electric line in the middle of a torrential downpour to restore power
to 20,000 people sitting comfortably in their homes. Try saying that to a
Marine deployed in Nangarhar, under fire from enemy combatants.

Level Five autonomy could exist, but what we'd end up discovering is that
humans let Jesus take the wheel far more often than the engineers in sunny
Silicon Valley think. Level Five might mean seeing five feet in front of you
and horrible traction, operating on your knowledge of the road, and just
driving forward. Until an organization is willing to program a car to still
drive forward in those conditions, level five won't happen. Uber practically
shut down their entire program after one person died; over 100 people die
every day in traditional vehicle accidents.

~~~
gideonparanoid
> over 100 people die every day in traditional vehicle accidents.

Which isn't acceptable either. To some degree, people look towards autonomous
vehicles as a way of reducing the number of fatalities/injuries on the road.
If they're not better than humans & the other benefits don't add up, they
won't be accepted.

~~~
PurpleBoxDragon
>Which isn't acceptable either.

Based purely on the evidence at hand, our society deems it not only acceptable
but not even noteworthy.

------
ed_blackburn
> Of late, Apple CEO Tim Cook has touted his company's initiatives in health
> as the key to its future growth. "I believe, if you zoom out into the
> future, and you look back, and you ask the question, "What was Apple's
> greatest contribution to mankind?" it will be about health,"

Make sense, they'd rather concentrate on health. There's an obvious inroad
there with wearables.

~~~
oska
I really doubt that Steve Jobs would have bet the company on that.

~~~
ei8htyfi5e
Maybe he would have.

If you visualize technology progressing through time, there is an obvious
merging of human and machine. Computers were large, now they are so small, you
leave your Air Pods in your ears for hours because you forget they are still
in.

Imagine another 50 years. Computers will most certainly be seamlessly
connected to us in some way.

Imagine a device that can read your mind and give you what you want before
asking? What if you're more intelligent just because you buy a specific
product? What about a device that is proven to lengthen your life just by
using it?

Biological research and health are what's necessary to get there.

The interesting things happen at the intersections. Who could compete?

Steve seemed like a smart guy. Maybe if he saw things this way he would bet
the company as you say.

------
neya
I don't think Apple has advancements in machine learning tech as much as its
competitors. For example, take a look at how primitive Siri is. It struggles a
lot in comparison to its competitors even for some basic commands.

Or, take a look at Apple Music's recommendation system in comparison to
Spotify's discover weekly.

Now, take a look at Amazon and Google. They both have their own cloud
infrastructure (which ironically Apple uses) with machine learning built right
into it. Both have state of the art image recognition systems (proprietary)
for various applications (Eg. Google Image search, Amazon shopping, etc.)

I am not saying Apple can't do it, I just think they're lagging behind and
this move totally makes sense.

~~~
tiew9Vii
From what I read Apple are taking a different approach? Google/Amazon are
harvesting massive amounts of data and training against it and Apple are
taking a privacy first approach saying you shouldn’t have to harvest lots of
data for intelligent AI.

Currently the harvesting data for models look to be working better for Google
/ Amazon with current technology. The question is how will Apple progress long
term and given time can they achieve AI with some level of privacy. I don’t
know enough to have any comments but like Apple’s public stance on this.

~~~
sterlind
Are you suggesting Apple plans to do AI without harvesting data, or with
transparent privacy controls on data? There's literally nothing for machine
learning to _learn_ besides harvested data. It's like suggesting that a power
company is trying the strategy of using no wires for delivering electricity to
houses..

I'd be excited if Apple found a way to trustlessly aggregate data and perform
homomorphic training of their ML models, but they seem to be laying off that
flavor of talent..

~~~
simonh
It's actually not that Apple isn't collecting data sets, but they're doing so
at a more measured pace by thoroughly anonymising it using differential
privacy. If the AI needs to use raw personal data in it's calculations, that
is done on the user's device to keep that information private.

This appears to be slowing them down compared to their competitors, but it's
not clear how much as against them being a bit behind for other reasons.

~~~
mda
Others also anonimyzes data using differential privacy, k anonymity etc. It is
a common practice and enforced when working with private / PII data.

------
coryfklein
My list so far: Apple, Tesla, Buzzfeed, Verizon/Yahoo/CNBC, HuffPost, SpaceX

Doesn't look like the layoffs will be ending soon either. If it was just one
or two that would be one thing, but this is forming a pattern. What do all
these companies know?

I keep hearing word of a potential recession or downturn. Is anybody here more
keyed in than myself and can provide an explanation?

~~~
strangegecko
without having read the article: layoffs in preparation of an economic
downturn would be unusual, especially when it's R&D in a cash rich company

I don't think there's a pattern, companies lay off and rehire people all the
time due to changed goals and/or requirements

~~~
imtringued
What if the economic downturn has already started and it's just that these
specific companies are feeling the effects sooner than others?

------
Theodores
I wonder if this autonomous driving thing has gone off the boil across the
industry. Years ago fully autonomous was only just around the corner - as in
five years away - but now nobody is talking of much more than improved lane
keeping assist grade safety features, stopping if someone walks in front of
the car rather than navigating a whole city including small streets.

The scale of autonomous has been misleading. Either something is autonomous or
it isn't. 'Level x' autonomy is marketing speak.

I am quite happy with incremental improvements in driving aids, e.g. how Intel
MobilEye is advertised. Spaceboy Elon sold it all to us as an impossible
future. I reckon that Apple probably got on board the electric autonomous
driving bandwagon but can't perform the required magic. You can hire all the
engineers you want to build magic things but after a while there is no point
paying them if the magic is not going to happen. They may well have pivoted to
a car type of thing that has great UX instead of 'magic'.

~~~
johnrogers0
I never really understood how the industry was able to ensure, from a legal
standpoint, the failsafeness of autonomous cars. There are bound to be errors,
such as the incident last year with running over a homeless woman who was
clearly visible to a real eye, but not detected.

It’s simply impossible to account for all the corner cases, especially when
you have to factor in manual drivers who can behave arbitrarily (what if they
purposely drive weird just to mess with the autonomous cars?).

In fact, autonomous cars may increase danger rates as human drivers become
quite peeved at sharing the road with them, and try to derail them at all
cost.

Maybe these are the reasons they gave up.

~~~
bonestamp2
> what if they purposely drive weird just to mess with the autonomous cars?

I got a car about 6 months ago with Level 2 Autonomy and I'd say it's even
more than just trying to mess with them. Now that I know the subtleties of how
my car behaves, it's easy to spot other drivers who have theirs engaged too. I
can use that to my advantage when appropriate and it takes some ethics not to
abuse them. For example, if I have to merge I'll merge in front of one of
those cars, purely from a safety standpoint -- I know that car is going to
respond and give itself lots of space. Of course, people could use that much
more maliciously to take advantage of those cars "niceness".

I've never had anyone mess with my car just for the sake of it, but you can
see the seasoned Tesla owners taking the opportunities that they spot. It
changes the way other drivers drive if they can identify the behavior.

------
phillipcarter
I really wish companies chasing this far-fetched dream of an autonomous car
instead invested in their local transit authorities to make public transit
free for all.

~~~
0x262d
the sad reality is that public transit isn't very profitable and has been
consciously sabotaged since the invention of cars.

------
PaulBGD_
Any stats on how many employees they had to start with? If it was a team of
500 vs 2500 that changes how I'd view this heavily.

~~~
Fricken
Apple accused a Project Titan ex-employee of trade secrets theft, and it was
disclosed that there 5,000 employees "Disclosed" on Project Titan.

[https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-self-driving-car-
proje...](https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-self-driving-car-project-
details-fbi-stolen-trade-secrets-investigation-2018-7)

~~~
rishav_sharan
Of course the most important comment is towards the bottom. If they laid off
200 out of 5000, then it really means nothing

~~~
greedo
And they haven't laid off all 200; many will be moved to different assignments
at Apple.

------
mikehines
A lot of negativity here. Hey maybe Apple has figured out autonomous car and
no longer needs that 200 employees!

~~~
bunnycorn
As usual.

The truth is that Apple hasn't promised anything and delivered nothing.

Google on the other side, has promised everything and delivered nothing.

And they promissed it "in five years" in 2012...

~~~
DeonPenny
Aren't they running trials now

~~~
robotnixon
Waymo have been operating on public roads since 2017.

[https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/7/16615290/waymo-self-
drivi...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/7/16615290/waymo-self-driving-
safety-driver-chandler-autonomous)

~~~
bunnycorn
That's just bull, it's on Arizona, on a closed circuit test track.

> And starting very soon, the company plans to invite regular people for rides
> in these fully self-driving vehicles.

What happened since 2017?

~~~
robotnixon
They invited regular people for rides in these fully self-driving vehicles.

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-waymo-selfdriving-
focus/w...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-waymo-selfdriving-focus/waymo-
unveils-self-driving-taxi-service-in-arizona-for-paying-customers-
idUSKBN1O41M2)

------
cheeze
It always seems odd that huge tech giants like this lay off certain sectors.
Are they dumping them because they don't have anywhere else that they'd be
useful to Apple? Surely recruiting is harder than moving someone laterally in
the company.

~~~
C1sc0cat
A automotive engineer isn't going to be much help on ios mac and phones.

~~~
robbrit
You'd be surprised at how much of automotive development is just regular
software engineering. Sure, the 5% of their skills that are automotive-
specific aren't much use, but the rest of their skills are certainly useful -
especially at Apple, who does actual close-to-the-metal coding.

~~~
C1sc0cat
Ok any software engineers want explain constant pressure and constant wear and
which component of a cars drive train it applies to?

------
samstave
In dense urban environments, like say FiDi areas - why not have sensor and
car-control infrastructure integrated into the city streets/curbs/sidewalks.

One doesnt have to realy on the most amazing sensors in a car if the city can
be responsible for driving the vehicles down its pathways.

Let the car enter a given area and relinquish a certain amount of control from
the car to the environment it is in.

Let the traffic light system dictate what cars are movingg in which direction.

Ensure that the cars never enter a crosswalk or bike lane etc.

once you leave the area - you then have whatever control of the car you would
normally.

~~~
WhompingWindows
A nice idea in theory, however most cities are woefully behind on public
infrastructure to begin with. They're going to be much, much slower to roll-
out than any self-contained SDC by SV or Detroit makers.

~~~
samstave
Recall that company that was installing parking spot sensors in SF? What
happened to them?

But a company could support making a "Smart Curb" which monitors all traffic
infomation around it, acts as a beacon, and does other things...

Lots of "iot" ideas could happen from that - like all the Scooters replying to
the curbs stating their location.

People could choose a ble beacon tag for their traditional bikes and could
have it always visible. Effectively a BLE beacon fabric in an urban
environment is an interesting idea to me.

~~~
wasdfff
Go anywhere with winter and look at the state of the curbs. Its like eastern
europe. In one season everything shifts several inches up or down or out or
in, cracks and crumbles, and gets covered with dirt and debris until it is
warm enough to begin street sweeping again.

------
an4rchy
Although they aren't shutting down, I was thinking that even if they did,
Apple can just wait for the dust to settle and buy one of the existing/growing
players once the technology is proven out (they definitely have the cash to do
it).

Spending a lot of money and trying to catch up to Waymo/Zoox/Cruise etc is
also kinda hard, even for Apple, because of all of the pieces of the stack
they need to work on and access to a very competitive/small talent pool.

~~~
npunt
That is unless those newer co's are overvalued in the market. I imagine Apple
would love to buy Netflix for 10-20bb but at 140bb that's a hard sell.

Driverless is such a foundational tech it makes sense to have lots of efforts
pursuing it.

------
iradik
Did they get laid-off or reassigned? The article is vague.

~~~
aboutruby
Seems to me like some of them got laid-off and some got reassigned.

------
Consultant32452
Right now roads are designed for "human sensors." At some point we'll need to
redesign the roads for new kinds of sensors. I have no idea what this will
look like, maybe all the roads will have RFID in them or some other tech. I
think that's the hurdle we haven't gotten past yet, recognizing we need new
roads.

~~~
greedo
Considering we can't seem to pay for our existing road infrastructure, I don't
think this will happen in the next 20 years.

------
julienfr112
How can 200 employees have any significance when talking about such a huge
project as autonomous Car ?

~~~
swarnie_
200 is a pretty meaningless number unless someone has inside knowledge of
Apple and know how large the project was.

200 out of 210 is a killer, 200 out of 4000 might just be a re-balancing of
skills/priorities.

------
code4tee
The autonomous car community is learning the same lesson the aviation
community found. Autopilot is a very powerful tool that increases safety, but
it doesn’t replace pilots. Similarly car automation will increase safety but
it won’t broadly replace drivers.

------
bickepuff
In what is being billed internally as a restructuring effort, Apple this week
released more than 200 employees from its "Project Titan" group, a secretive
branch of the company focused on developing self-driving car technologies.

------
crunkykd
At the risk of offending some folks, let me offer some conclusions based on
living near the Waymo facilities for 4+ years. Their autonomous cars are
already driving better than about 30% of the licensed people on the road in my
town.

------
trhway
haven't seen those cars in Sunnyvale for something like a couple months. The
cars are really heavy on sensors, so Apple shouldn't have issues with detailed
3d scene acquisition, it is probably understanding of the scene is where they
struggle - not surprising giving that they are hardware company and for
example behind the likes of Google in the AI dept.

------
bondolo
The couple of now former Apple Titan employees I know all took new jobs in the
last six months. This has been coming for a while.

------
jamisteven
Making room for that TSLA acquisition..

------
dana321
I wouldn't trust an Apple self-driving car. If i saw one i would start
running.

~~~
saagarjha
Why not?

~~~
dana321
If you look into the failure rate of apple products, the defects in things
that all other manufacturers seem to get right then you begin to build a
picture of how this is going to turn out.

------
hema_n
All the best Apple for your future endeavors.!!

------
smpetrey
Well, that was quick.

------
pentae
When you can't make a laptop with reliable screens or keyboards, or an iMac
lineup that has CPU's 2 generations behind.. Maybe it's time to shut down the
stupid vanity projects and focus on your core business instead?

~~~
ulfw
I have no idea why you're getting downvoted.

If a company decides not to produce wireless routers (which were class
leading) or monitors etc anymore, all because they're non "core" to a
computer/mobile hardware company then I don't see how building automotive AI
is core to a computer/mobile hardware computer company that has zero core
competency in either car manufacturing or AI.

~~~
usaphp
They stopped making routers and monitors not because they are non “core”
products, they stopped making them because there is not much money in it. You
buy routers ones every 10 years probably, and margin is limited, but
supporting them throughout this period is quite expensive. As for monitors,
there is so many competitors right now, that it’s hard to make it worth
building your own monitor, Especially if you want to win the market share you
need to distinguish yourself from competition, and there is very little you
can do to make your monitor distinguishable from your competitors.

Automotive AI meanwhile is a future and they have to think about future with
all the money they have now.

~~~
Tepix
If Apple truly cares about the user experience they would have kept the
wireless routers in their portfolio. A great opportunity missed to have a
product that is more user friendly than the competition.

I'd argue the wholesome user experience will prove be more important for Apple
in the long run than having a big profit margin on every product.

~~~
scarface74
The “user experience” for most users trying to use a third party router
instead of the one bundled with their internet service where support comes
from their ISP would be worse.

------
mrfusion
Welcome to the trough of disillusionment.

------
imandride
I can only imagine Apple selling cars like they currently do their hardware.
They ship a product that had multiple design defects. Then deny the claims or
blame it on the users, until the users start suing them. Having people beta
test your phones is one thing. But in no way do I trust a vehicle made by
Apple on the roads.

~~~
mtreis86
You go in to the dealership because your three year old car needs repairs.
They tell you its going to need a new engine and suspension and going to cost
almost as much as a new car, and try to sell you on one instead of the repair.
Mechanic down the street replaces your shocks and an intake manifold gasket
for less than a tenth the cost of the dealer repair quote.

------
nkkollaw
Let's be honest, Apple hasn't been able to ship a decent, non-defective
computer in many years, now.

I would be extremely scared of driving a car where the steering wheel or
breaks got stuck from dust particles like their keyboards (but the break pedal
is over 85% thinner!).

Apple is still able to sell stuff because they're milking the successful
products of the last years when Steve Jobs was still alive, but the situation
is quickly shifting. Personally, I switched from Apple to Linux and just
bought an absolutely wonderful Surface Book 2 (yup, EUR 2000), and it's the
best computer I've ever owned. Compared to my last, defective, keeeey-
repeeeating MacBook Pro it has a detachable screen so that it can turn into a
tablet or you can fold it for presentations, touchscreen, awesome design, and
the screen is 3:2 so I can see more text. I had been a customer for over 10
years.

