
For some, meditation has become more curse than cure - michael_michael
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-knight-of-the-souls/372766/?single_page=true
======
noonespecial
_Eventually, life lost its meaning. Colors began to fade. Spiritually dry,
David didn 't care about anything anymore. Everything he had found pleasurable
before the retreat—hanging out with friends, playing music, drinking—all of
that "turned to dirt," he says, "a plate of beautiful food turned to dirt."_

That's depression. Clinical depression. Fits my experience to a T. The first
thing out of my mouth when I finally saw a "real" doctor was "I can't see
colors or taste food anymore... I mean, I can tell you its red or blue or
tasted like chicken but I can't _see_ or _taste_ it anymore. I know that
sounds crazy but..."

This article is a little dangerous. Like saying "Running causes heart failure"
but omitting "in people with congestive heart failure". Its the heart
condition that's the problem, not the running.

If you have these symptoms, it wasn't the meditation. You're depressed. See a
doctor. They can fix you.

~~~
mveety
This is kinda something that meditation is supposed to do. It brings problems
you have to the fore so that you can see them clearly and fix them. This is
something entirely ignored by the new-agey "im super spiritual" types.
Meditation isn't something to make you blissful or happy or whatever they're
saying it does these days. It's just a tool to see yourself just like a
microscope is a tool that allows you to see what's already there.

~~~
baldfat
Depression is a medical diagnosis because it has physical make up that causes
people to be depressed.

I work and live with people who think depression is a "spiritual" or personal
lifestyle problem. I think they are wrong.

I lost a sister to cancer when she was 15, my brother to probably suicide when
he was 19 and my son died of cancer at 12. I seriously can say I never had a
day of depression. I have had a broken heart missing them and feeling the
pain. I will cry for them (I did for my son on Sunday while I was unloading
groceries (Go figure)) But I have never lost the taste of food nor anything
else. I have sorrow but their is a root cause for that. Depression is sorrow
with no real root cause (to me). So I usually come out to defend people who
are depressed since I feel like I should be the kind of depression but have
never experienced it due to the luck of my genetics.

~~~
goda90
But, there are lifestyle and "spiritual" things that can be done to help treat
depression. Things like exercise, diet, social interaction, exposure to nature
and sunlight, and other environmental factors can have an effect on the
physical make up of the brain. Now none are cure alls and a lack of any one of
them isn't necessarily to blame either, but there is merit to some of these
"spiritual" practices that get more of those things in one's life.

~~~
baldfat
> But, there are lifestyle and "spiritual" things that can be done to help
> treat depression

(I am the OP on going through loss and sadness and not being depressed.)

Yes 100% correct. Just like if you have heart disease or a bad back their are
non-medical activities that will help those medical condition. My statement is
that their is a medical piece that people discount and/or actually dismiss. A
person can't just "fix themselves" and having the medical piece help them with
treatment with counseling is a big help. Depression isn't that your sad.

Depression Definition: Clinical depression is a mood disorder in which
feelings of sadness, loss, anger, or frustration interfere with everyday life
for weeks or more.

Symptoms of depression include:

    
    
        Low mood or irritable mood most of the time
    
    
        Trouble sleeping or sleeping too much
    
    
        A big change in appetite, often with weight gain or loss
        Tiredness and lack of energy
    
    
        Feelings of worthlessness, self-hate, and guilt
    
    
        Difficulty concentrating
    
    
        Slow or fast movements
    
    
        Lack of activity and avoiding usual activities
    
    
        Feeling hopeless or helpless
    
    
        Repeated thoughts of death or suicide
    
    
        Lack of pleasure in activities you usually enjoy, including sex 
    

[https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003213.htm](https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003213.htm)

------
CharlesW
About 1 in 4 adults experience some level of mental illness in a given year.

> _" I started having thoughts like, 'Let me take over you,' combined with
> confusion and tons of terror," says David, a polite, articulate 27-year-old
> who arrived at Britton’s Cheetah House in 2013. "I had a vision of death
> with a scythe and a hood, and the thought 'Kill yourself' over and over
> again."_

That's not an effect of meditation, that's a symptom of a mental illness.
Meditation probably helped him discover it earlier than he otherwise would
have.

I mean, the words "mental" and "illness" don't even _appear_ in the article.

~~~
acjohnson55
But mental illness can have all sorts of causes. I don't think it's crazy to
suggest that meditation itself _could_ in rare cases be one of them. Or
suppose the person never meditated and lived and died with a latent mental
illness that never actually manifested. Could they be said to have a mental
illness at all?

~~~
Aelinsaar
If you want to suggest that and not sound crazy, cite something suggesting the
possibility.

~~~
near_how_far
The article in question doesn't state that meditation was a cause of their
problems, but pretty obviously details that people coming to meditation
looking for ways to improve their lifestyle, instead began down a road to a
much worse place.

While it might be unsurprising that meditation did not provide direct benefits
to mind or body, it also failed to insulate or deflect these people away from
new misery.

It's interesting to learn that the people described in the article had
uncovered unsettling realities about themselves while meditating.

Knowing what I know about many people, uncompromising introspection is not
something everyone would be comfortable with. Some people are jerks. Some
people have their head in the clouds.

Grinding one's life to a halt, and taking a hard look in the mirror, is bound
to derail an unrealistic world view now and again. But if, on the other side
of an unceremonious introduction to cold reality, awaits absolutely no way to
fix profound disappointment...

What then?

~~~
Aelinsaar
I'm not convinced that time didn't do the uncovering, and meditation happened
to be what they were doing at the time. Correlation != Causation and all of
that, you know.

------
whack
The entire article reeks of fear-mongering on the basis of rare and extreme
anecdotes. It's good that people are investigating any potential side-effects
that may exist, but until they find something that's conclusive and
statistically significant, it's not worth worrying about.

Let's not forget that the psychological/physiological benefits of meditation
have been well documented and demonstrated by numerous scientific studies. If
you're someone considering trying out meditation, you have much more to gain
than lose by giving it a shot.

~~~
Alex3917
> The entire article reeks of fear-mongering on the basis of rare and extreme
> anecdotes.

At least in vipassana, the dark night period is considered to be a phase along
the path or whatever. In other words, you basically can't reach enlightenment
without having a complete mental breakdown and losing your ability to hold
down a job and function normally in society, often for a couple years if not
permanently. C.f. her interviews on the Buddhist Geeks.

You're not going to have issues if you're just meditating for fifteen or
twenty minutes a day or whatever, it's only if you're doing this for hours
every day and getting into the ego dissolution stages.

~~~
GavinMcG
I feel that "at least in vipassana" is too broad to be useful – "vipassana" in
Pali just means "insight", and there are an awful lot of different groups that
lay claim to the term. That's especially true without more resources that
support that claim. I'm no expert in this, but I have explored the meditation
ecosystem a bit, and this is the first time I've heard the claim that the dark
night is _necessary_.

~~~
Alex3917
Each tradition within vipassana has a slightly different roadmap, but they all
seem to have some sort of 'completely losing your shit' stage somewhere in the
middle:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassan%C4%81-%C3%B1%C4%81%E1...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassan%C4%81-%C3%B1%C4%81%E1%B9%87a)

See also Daniel Ingram's book, which Buddhist Geeks also talks about all the
time: [http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-
berlin.de/downloads/ma...](http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-
berlin.de/downloads/mastering-vers-3.pdf)

------
llamataboot
I'm not going to say I'm the most experienced meditator in the world, but I've
gone fairly deep. I'd argue that if you aren't getting into weird ego-
dissolution experiences you are still meditating for comfort (which is totally
okay! meditation is a great stress dissolver) and not moving towards the
actual point of most meditative practices...but this also points to two things
-- 1) meditation can't "cure" everything, sometimes you need a good therapist,
or some chemicals, or some combination of the above 2) you absolutely must
have a meditation teacher you trust if you want to do deep dives (yes, a 10
day vipassana retreat is certainly a deep dive, as is a zen sesshin).
Preferably one you know has actually touched most of these spaces, is well
grounded and compassionate, isn't woo-ey or ego-challenged in terms of feeling
like your bad experience might threaten their "good teacher" status, etc.

~~~
MichaelGG
I'd just note that the best "marketed" vipassana retreat, dhamma.org/Goenka is
extremely woo-ey. Apart from simply false claims (eg cloud chambers we're
always useless), the stated purpose of his practise is to excise "deeply
rooted" problems so as to reincarnate better. This is in spite of them
insisting it's a pure technique with zero dogma.

I know that might not represent vipassana as a whole, just adding a warning
since it's the most popular one.

~~~
ylem
I'm a physicist and went to a number of Vipassana retreats. I also disagreed
with the science comments and was fairly agnostic on the reincarnation
comments. But, in Goenka's favor, he basically says, ignore all of the
metaphysics and just see whether or not the technique works for you. Give it a
fair try and if it doesn't work, don't use it. It wasn't about reincarnating
better, but whether or not it offers you some benefit in this life. I really
appreciated that attitude.

~~~
MichaelGG
That's the marketing line: try and see. And that's the only reason I even
went, as my woo-meter was off the chart. Except Goenka explicitly states the
end goal, then goes on with a parable about how, if you don't accept it,
you're like an ignorant child and will come around to his way of thinking. It
100% is about reincarnation; he makes this totally clear in his talk on day 3
(or thereabouts).

What really put me over the edge though was his chanting. "For good
vibrations". What made me think it was cult like was the number of people
repeating things in dead languages.

Additionally, he'd use manipulative techniques while speaking. Even though he
was capable of speaking clearly, he'd intentionally lay on the accent, draw
words out, repeat words over and over. This was laid even more clear I took a
course in two languages. The translated version was quick and succinct.

Like you say, he denies this. At one point he says a sentence like "we have no
dogma, nothing to believe, just the universal truth" \- with no trace of
irony.

Overall, between the woo and flat-out falsehoods, I found it very
disingenuous. It certainly doesn't do meditation as a whole any benefit, just
reinforces stereotypes. Which is a shame because some of the locations are
superb, and the volunteers were extremely nice people.

------
rainy-day
In the yoga tradition, meditation is not something you can just sit down and
do regularly from the beginning. You are supposed to do asanas to prepare for
breath exercises, and breath exercises to allow the mind to concentrate, and
then the "meditation skill is unlocked".

The general idea is that sleepiness and sluggishness is a certain outcome of
an unhealthy body, as well as anxiety and irritability that are caused by
various body aches.

In the worst case, meditation can become a formality, just a checkbox to fill
out, a way to spend an indulgent, lethargic half-hour, or the opposite - a
constantly distracted, obsessive anxiety (which is perfectly fine and even to
be expected at the beginning of a meditation, but not at all times).

That's not to say that meditation is completely off limit: the idea is to do a
bit of meditation and breath exercises at first and a lot of asanas, and then
gradually increase breath exercises and then concentration; and finally
meditation.

But this whole idea that meditation can be counter-productive in some
circumstances is not really alien to the Eastern traditions. They are not
stupid and they've been doing it for a long time with an empirical, practical
approach.

~~~
uptownfunk
Yes, definitely this. And even before the asana and pranayama (breathing
practice) are the yamas and niyamas (yama-niyama-asana-pranayama-pratyahara-
dhyana-dharana-samadhi) there are eight rungs to the entire eastern
yogic/meditative practice. The whole focus on "meditation" and physical poses
by the modern western approach of $50/hr yoga classes completely goes against
the eastern method of guru and disciple. There's a reason these things are
meant to be studied under a learned master. What's the saying... a little
knowledge is a dangerous thing. These practices were studied by students for
years before they attempted what some people do in their first couple of yoga
classes..

That said, I don't mean to discount the experiences of the individuals
described in the article. I think it's terribly unfortunate that anyone has to
suffer from practicing meditation and yoga, and also find it sad that they
were unable to find a master to help them recover from their experiences
sooner.

------
quonn
These experiences during meditation are real. It is therefore very important
to develop compassion for yourself. In the Dhammapada the Buddha teaches to
"Love yourself and watch". If you cannot love yourself, it may be better to
not meditate (yet). There is a related and equally well known quote by Dogen
which cautions against "driving the self to enlightenment". If one doesn't
love himself, that will be what he will attempt to do and then because things
don't work that way desperation results.

~~~
allisthemoist
One of the interviewees mentioned that meditating was very difficult because
he kept having thoughts that were not supposed to come up emerge. My immediate
thought was to what I learned in Buddhist teaching to have compassion for
oneself. If he had been instructed well, we would have known to accept all the
thoughts that arose and merely observe them.

The following passage from Thich Nhat Hanh comes to mind:

Before the Buddha attained full realization of the path, for example, he tried
various methods to suppress his mind, and they did not work. In one discourse
(the Mahasaccaka Sutta), he recounted:

I thought, Why don't I grit my teeth, press my tongue against my palate, and
use my mind to repress my mind? Then, as a wrestler might take hold of the
head or the shoulders of someone weaker than he, and, in order to restrain and
coerce that person, he has to hold him down constantly without letting go for
a moment, so I gritted my teeth, pressed my tongue against my palate, and used
my mind to suppress my mind. As I did this, I was bathed in sweat. Although I
was not lacking in strength, although I maintained mindfulness and did not
fall from mindfulness, my body and my mind were not at peace, and I was
exhausted by these efforts, This practice caused other feelings of pain to
arise in me besides the pain associated with the austerities, and I was not
able to tame my mind.

------
laughfactory
It is strange for me to read in the comments all the advice to--as I
understand it--be a relatively "whole" person before beginning meditation. In
my limited experience and perspective, I was under the impression that
meditation can assist one with releasing stress and anxiety... I thought
meditation was one tool which could be applied for achieving more "wholeness"
as a person, and I'm surprised at the suggestion that apparently other means
must be pursued first?

It seems to me that it would be hard to go wrong with 15-30 minutes of
"meditation" spent focusing on breathing and non-judgmentally observing your
thoughts as they bubble up and dissipate. I've often felt that a lot of my
stress and anxiety and even depression is the result of hanging onto things
and the result of trying to control things which are actually outside my
control.

Or perhaps these other comments are directed toward the serious, multiple-
hour, practice of meditation? I have no desire to separate my consciousness
from my physical being, for instance. I'm happy to stay firmly rooted on
earth, while learning to accept the good in my inherent existence. If that
makes sense.

~~~
dlevine
This isn't talking about 15-30 minutes of meditation. It's talking about 2+
week retreats.

Having been on a couple 10-day retreats, I've experienced what I can only
describe as significantly altered states of consciousness (after 6+ days of
meditating 14-16 hours a day). Fortunately, I managed to make my way back into
the world after they ended, but I can see how some people might be permanently
altered.

~~~
aedron
That sounds like something a lawsuit away from being shut down.

------
sandGorgon
MCTB - Mastering the Core Teaching of the Buddha - which is a fairly hardcore
"path" towards enlightenment has these phases well charted out.

[http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-
wiki/-/wiki...](http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-
wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+5.+Dissolution,+Entrance+to+the+Dark+Night)

 _Once one has crossed the Arising and Passing Event, one will enter the Dark
Night regardless of whether one wants to or not. It doesn’t matter if you
practice from this point on; once you cross the A &P you are in the Dark Night
to some degree (i.e. are a Dark Night Yogi) until you figure out how to get
through it, and if you do get through it without getting to the first stage of
enlightenment, you will have to go through it again and again until you do. I
mean this in the most absolute terms_

These are a well understood steps in the journey towards enlightenment and
comes with necessary warnings. For most people, they will not step this far
and this point is moot. For hardcore practitioners of meditation, it's a
necessary step. What I think has happened is that meditation has become
classified as "infinitely benevolent" : you can go down that path, as far as
you can, and all will be good.

Meditation like weightlifting, needs guidance and care. You can hurt yourself
if you don't respect the barbell.

------
drjesusphd
A while back I had the thought that meditation for self-improvement is a non-
starter. Meditation, supposedly done properly, is supposed to be non-
judgemental observation. But if you're approaching the whole practice as a way
to improve some aspect of yourself, the entire foundation is flawed. In that
case, the whole reason you're doing it is based on a negative judgement.

I was wondering if someone more experienced with meditation can comment on
this. Does this make any sense?

~~~
MarkPNeyer
I meditate about 20 minutes a night before i go to bed. Nonjudgement is a big
part of this. I just sit there and observe my thoughts, without trying to
change them.

Why is this helpful?

Because trying to change your thoughts is itself a form of thinking. Trying to
change a thought is reacting to that thought, and a lot of my problems come
from reacting to thoughts uncritically.

When I sit there and just try to notice the thoughts, thoughts about
disturbing thoughts bother me less and less. An unpleasant thought doesn't
quickly lead to a progressive series of counter-thoughts or responses.

To give you an example of how this helps: on the way to the grocery store
yesterday, I thought "I'm out of beer, I could buy some beer." Reacting to the
thought, without being critical of it, would mean going to buy the beer.

But observing the thought allowed me to be aware of it and to _decide_ if
that's what I actually wanted. I decided that no, I didn't really need the
beer, and that I'd gain more utility from knowing I made a more responsible
choice.

For me, practicing nonjudgement allows me to better exercise judgement at
suitable times. I couldn't tell you how many times i've gotten carried away
giving imaginary speeches when I think about running for office - a practice
which has caused me no good. It's like that judgement was entirely wasted.

By meditating, I've become more aware of the background ebb and flow of
thoughts, which has freed me up to be judgemental when it _matters_ - such as
over the small part of the world I have control over, instead of wasting
energy judging things I have no control over, because that's a conditioned
response to unpleasant thoughts.

I hope that helps.

FWIW I did go through a 'dark night of the soul' period. It lasted a few
years, and my life got noticeably worse, but eventually I stopped believing
everything I thought, and focused on repairing my life, and now it's much
better than it ever was.

If meditation brings up dark or horrible thoughts - for me those were there
all along, but I was just not paying attention because I constantly thought
about getting rich, or politics, or starting a company, or p vs np, or
whatever other abstractions i was into that day.

~~~
jamesbrownsmith
Would you be able to go into what your 'dark night of the soul' period
entailed?

~~~
MarkPNeyer
A drug addiction and struggle with mental illness (bipolar) ran through it.

I was starting to understand emotion, and I felt like the world was based on
lies. I knew I was different from everyone else but couldn't figure out how
exactly. I identified more with the idea of being an AI than with being fully
human.

[http://noisebloom.tumblr.com](http://noisebloom.tumblr.com)

I expressed some of this on Tumblr of all places. I haven't touched this since
the end of that whole process: I was hospitalized 5 times in a year and
realized it was a matter of survival to fix my life.

------
failrate
Meditation can induce a psychoactive experience much like you can get with a
chemical agent. just as you can go on a bad trip or experience religious
ecstasy on a drug, you can induce a similar state through meditation. This is
neither good nor bad. You just need discipline and an understanding of the
risks.

~~~
CuriouslyC
In many respects deep meditative states resemble sensory deprivation. The
majority of people find both calming, but hallucinations, altered states of
consciousness and deeply unsettling experiences are possible in both cases.

------
estefan
No mention of kundalini anywhere... Seems he went a bit deep too soon with no
guidance. Electrical currents, spasms, sexual thoughts, digestive issues, etc.
Classic kundalini symptoms.

Aypsite.org has some good info on it and how to avoid or deal with it.

~~~
estefan
In fact, to elaborate a bit, he mentions feeling a 'knot' in his lower belly.
That sounds like swadhistana chakra, or what the Taoists call the Lower Dan
Tien. That'd correlate with the sexual thoughts as well.

Normally the recommendations for this sort of thing is to back off, and to
circulate energy in the micro cosmic orbit. See Mantak Chia for details.

An interesting book I read years ago about this was "Path Notes of an American
Ninja Master". Cheesy title, but pretty interesting as an alternative to Gopi
Krishna. The author specifically addresses the 'Dark Night of the Soul'
phenomenon and emphasises the importance of creating Good Feelings inside to
smooth the process and to lessen the effects of the darker aspects...

~~~
TACIXAT
As someone who practices Taoist meditation, Mantak Chia is meh. Got most his
notoriety through sexual practices which are nearly insignificant in actual
Taoism (religious or mountain). His school has also latched onto the MCO as
some great achievement when most other lineages treat it as simply an
energetic movement that happens while practicing.

Meditation, as with hallucinogens, if you or your family has a history of
mental illness, tread carefully.

Sitting can be surprisingly hard work. It pushes the body through pain while
introducing you to the limits of your mind. In any training, slow progression
is very important. You wouldn't go to a body building competition with no
lifting experience, why do people dive into 10 day retreats without years of
experience?

~~~
estefan
> You wouldn't go to a body building competition with no lifting experience,
> why do people dive into 10 day retreats without years of experience?

That's kind of the point though with highlighting MCO, especially if you read
Gopi Krishna. Some people stumble upon things spontaneously before they're
ready, and some just go off on their own focussing on the higher centres or
overdo it (like 10-day retreats before they should). MCO for beginners is
about opening the pathways to handle greater energy flows. Anyone writing
books trying to educate the masses should focus on safety first, which he
does.

He specifically calls out Kundalini yoga schools as only focussing on sending
energy up, without safely describing how to bring it down. That's not my
experience - the Kundalini yoga I learnt included the MCO but, as you say,
didn't make a big deal of it. But, you know, Gopi Krishna again... you can
never be too careful. Chia must have come across some schools that didn't
mention keeping the tongue up and bringing energy down, or bringing in earth
energy for balance.

I've found the Lesser Kan & Li - as taught by Chia - very effective (when I
finally got it right), and haven't read about it anywhere else. Some say MCO
is all you need.

My criticism of Mantak Chia is that he doesn't sufficiently emphasise single-
pointedness, i.e. what others generally refer to as meditation. If you read
his books you could come away with the impression that meditation is always
active, always moving energy around.

That's why I prefer the aypsite approach - half chi kung/pranayama, half
awareness with a mantra. It's much more balanced with an emphasis on going
slowly and self-pacing. And the really interesting stuff happens in the
stillness anyway...

------
ebiester
I remember reading this when it came out, and noticing how it reflected some
of my personal experiences.

I found that meditation unlocked some of my inner anxiety and I was
experiencing frequent panic attacks when I wasn't meditating. I had to stop
for months.

I have started again, mostly because I miss the benefits of meditation, but it
is closer to what another poster labeled "comfort meditation." I still
consider one of the longer retreats, but I don't know that I'm yet ready to
face that again.

~~~
thonos
I never did meditation but did a few "retreats" into other countries to get
away from everything and just have some time for myself. I had a similar
experience where it made 'click' and suddenly I was a lot more aware of all
the anxieties that I have and usually don't think about. It made everything
else so insignificant that I feel I am constantly wasting my time with almost
everything I do.

I still have it and not sure how to get rid of this feeling. At the same time
I feel "good" that I "found myself". It made clear for me what I actually want
in life. Now I treat things like a stable job, work and a salary are just
temporary and intermediate steps to reach my actual goals.

Getting reminded about these things with a scary anxiety attack is indeed not
nice but I learned to "use it" to my advantage as good as I can.

At the same time I need to keep myself busy to not get reminded about it too
much.

Again, still no idea how to "solve" this problem.

------
joyeuse6701
I certainly had heard about this aspect of deep meditation and that it is in
many cases a stopping point for many serious practitioners. I like that the
article touches on the search within esoteric religious practices of dark
experiences.

~~~
gautamdivgi
I didn't read the article totally but this experience seems to be a result of
incorrect practice. Just meditation without mastering the previous steps of
Ashtanga Yoga is not advisable. Yes - you can use it but not as the main
vehicle for your practice. I meditate daily - between 1/2 hr to an hour. I do
not have the time to spend doing it for hours at a stretch. I do not think I
have the temperament to do it either. Forcing myself to do it for hours on end
is repressive - the focus and concentration should come about naturally. Even
then a highly contemplative practice is not recommended without the close and
personal guidance of a Teacher (or Guru).

------
gdubs
I practice mindfulness meditation and the way it has always been taught to me
is to simply sit and observe without judgement. That is, don't actively try to
push away thoughts. Simply acknowledge them as they arise, and return your
focus to breathing in and out. Forcing away thoughts is just another way of
engaging ego -- you get caught up trying to get somewhere rather than simply
being in the moment.

One of my favorite descriptions is by Alan Watts, called "listening
meditation":

[http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7HYY4eitC9c](http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7HYY4eitC9c)

------
niccaluim
I meditate daily, and I'm part of a community that encourages it, but only
_after_ a thorough process of mental housecleaning. If you're full of un-
dealt-with bitterness, anxiety, resentment, guilt, restlessness, shame,
etc.—to say nothing of untreated mental illness or trauma—yeah, meditation is
going to be a supremely unpleasant experience. Shutting out all distractions
is only comfortable if you haven't been using those distractions to keep from
having to deal with life.

------
kordless
> He panicked. Increasingly vivid pornographic fantasies and repressed
> memories from his childhood began to surface.

As someone with Aphantasia, I'm absolutely fascinated by this.

------
jrapdx3
Adverse outcomes of meditation practices described in the article covered a
range of disorders, e.g., depression, panic attacks, possibly frank psychosis.
These conditions are familiar to psychiatrists and not rare, guessing
something like <=5% of the whole population have a serious form of such
conditions.

We know that assigning _a singular cause_ of psychiatric disorders is spurious
since all major conditions have been connected to multiple genetic, social and
environmental factors.

It's certainly conceivable that meditation could _precipitate_ an episode of a
psychiatric disorder, and of course it is mostly impossible to say if or when
the condition would have emerged otherwise.

IOW the apparent sequential onset of psychiatric symptoms could be just chance
occurrence reflecting the general population prevalence, or there might be a
genuine causal effect of the preceding meditation event. Logically, at this
time there's as much basis to assert meditation "caused" the condition as
asserting meditation did not cause it. Until a lot more information is
available, the relation remains indeterminate, or undefined.

It's a good principle (and the safest course) to hold that any/all spiritual
practices or psychiatric treatments have risk of bad outcomes. No
"prescription" is going to be good for everyone.

The idea that meditation and psychotherapy have overlapping risk potential is
compelling. Haven't looked into to it yet, but definitely worth finding out
what if any studies have been done.

Along those lines there's a just-published meta-analysis re: outcome of
treatment for depression with CBT or medication. With both treatments, ~5-7%
of subjects had at least some "deterioration" of their condition, and those
with the greatest pre-treatment symptoms had the worst outcomes. [0]

While the domains are only partially congruent, 5% is probably a good initial
guess concerning the probability of mild or greater adverse effect of
meditation, IIRC corresponding to ~2 SD from the mean. I didn't see any
references in the article to publications by the researchers profiled, but I'd
imagine they'd have some data that sheds light on the prevalence of the
outcomes they're studying.

[0] Vittengl JR, Jarrett RB, Weitz E, et. al. _" Divergent Outcomes in
Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy and Pharmacotherapy for Adult Depression."_
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=divergent+outcomes+...](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=divergent+outcomes+depression+CBT+pharmacotherapy)

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rainy-day
I would also add that meditation is a bit tricky in the sense that it
increases awareness of what's there - and what's there may be good or bad, but
increased awareness is a better gift than merely good or bad things. Noticing
more things means I'm not as locked in to my obliviousness. It's paradoxial
but having a bad meditation is often beneficial.

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gedy
Apart from mental illness, perhaps some practitioners of deep meditation have
simply trained their brains to disconnect from physical reality and not align
with the physical and emotional stimulus that keeps thoughts "normal"

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TACIXAT
The title is wrong on the linked page. It says The Dark Knight of the Soul and
everywhere else in the article refers to it as the Dark Night. I do appreciate
the Batman of the Soul though.

~~~
magicbeanss
I'm quite sure that was intentional. They're going for the double entendre
(not Batman, but the notion of a force of darkness)

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hoffcoder
Not at all convincing. I have been meditating for more than 10 years and it
has always been an exhilarating experience. The author is trying to make up a
story, it seems.

~~~
MichaelGG
Anecdote, just like lots of people have great times with psychedelics. If you
search you'll see "some" stories of people suffering
derealization/depersonalization after going on a meditation retreat, for
instance.

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allisthemoist
_There was stuff dropping away … [and] electric shocks through my body. [My]
core sense of self, a persistent consciousness, the thoughts and stuff, were
not me. "_

This sounds to me like the beginnings of psychosis. I don't doubt that these
feelings could be induced by meditation, but I do doubt that they would not
have emerged in some other way.

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cylinder
Sounds like he just got older.

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cpncrunch
2014

~~~
cpncrunch
What possible reason was there for downvoting this? I was pointing out that
its an old story and should be noted in the title as per hn custom.

