
Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera - ra7
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211148
======
bloody-crow
This statement has a number of issues.

First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled.
You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware
about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. This
has happened in the past [0] and there are known Apple products that are
vulnerable, yet the statement never mentions this making you believe it's
impossible.

Second, once the camera light is on, the data has already been captured. The
light just told you about it, not prevented it. The plastic cover or a piece
of tape does prevent it even if your laptop security is compromised.

Third, in a world where remote conferences are more and more common, more and
more software doesn't do a very good job at letting you know when it's about
to enable your camera. You might click on a link to an all hands conference to
listen in while you're changing only to have the software helpfully enable the
camera and broadcast you for the rest of the company. I believe in big
conferences organizer may sometimes control other ppl's camera as well. You
can totally imagine a scenario when the organizer misclicks and enables the
camera for the wrong person instead of a scheduled presenter.

Camera covers solve all of those problems.

[0]:
[https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569](https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569)

~~~
Wowfunhappy
> First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be
> disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is
> not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming
> on.

I have made this point several times throughout this thread, so I apologize
for repeating myself:

Every laptop Apple has manufactured in the last ten years has an LED connected
to the same circuit which powers up the camera. You cannot send power to the
camera without also sending power to the LED, which will in turn cause the LED
to light up. Unless the LED is broken, in which case you will know because it
will _never_ light up.

If you manage to find a vulnerability in this system, I don't think I even
mind, because you've also broken physics and very possibly found a way to
generate unlimited electricity forever.

~~~
Simon_says
Can one power up the camera for only a few milliseconds? Enough to take a
still photo, without the LED getting bright enough for a human to notice?

~~~
saagarjha
This used to be a thing, where you’d flash the LED briefly and hope the user
didn’t notice. But new Macs prevent this by having a minimum duration the
light will remain on.

~~~
jordan314
FWIW I tried using the command line utility isightcapture on my 2019 macbook,
and the LED turned on for 4-5 seconds and I got a dialog asking if I wanted to
allow access to the camera. So this seems to be true. I still have a camera
cover though

------
gtm1260
I was very skeptical of the camera covers, but then through conversations with
some of my co-workers, I realized that they weren't being used because people
were worried about spies secretly turning on the camera. It was 90% of the
time just peace of mind that their camera was actually off, instead of having
to find the sometimes hard to see options in video chat programs etc.

~~~
dathinab
That is what I like with the Lenovo webcams in T480s and probably later
versions.

They have a small slider with the camera protection "glass" build in which can
cover the camera and will "show" a red dot if it's covered.

~~~
miguelmota
This should really be the standard for laptop webcams. The T480 webcam cover
is flush with the bezel and you barely even notice it because it's so subtle.
One of my favorite features.

~~~
hu3
Wow it's actually really neat. Here's a picture if anyone is wondering:

[https://i.imgur.com/HrF8jjk.png](https://i.imgur.com/HrF8jjk.png)

------
zelon88
None of the proposed solutions do anything to actually stop the camera from
taking a picture of you. Sure, you'll see the indicator light up for 3
seconds. But the attacker still got what they needed.

Camera covers have nothing to do with identifying compromise. They are
strictly for preventing compromise. This is exactly opposite what a camera
indicator light does, and thus the indicator should not be considered a
"workaround" for not being able to install a camera cover.

~~~
crazygringo
This is a great point.

This _could_ be solved in software at the OS-level with a permission dialog
that popped up _every time_ the camera was asked to be activated (as opposed
to an ongoing website permission). Which would be overly annoying for most,
but appreciated by a privacy-conscious minority.

But unless Apple ever did that (doubtful), once you see the green light it's
already too late.

It does make me wonder if something like that could ever be done with a kernel
extension or similar?

~~~
zelon88
Personally I think a hardware switch that disabled the mic and camera is the
best route. Engineers would have to be honest in actually connecting the
switch directly to the camera rather than resorting to some firmware tom-
foolery. Then you could wire the indicator to the switch as a visual reminder
that your camera is attached to your PC.

~~~
teddyh
The Librem laptops and phones from Purism all have such hardware switches.

~~~
chopin
But only one switch for both camera and mic; I am sitting right in front of
one. Better than nothing but not always what you want. Same for for bluetooth
and wireless which I find even more unpractical.

------
duxup
This seems like a pretty mild warning for folks who might stick a bulky cover
on their camera and press down / pack their laptop tightly and now have wedged
part of the screen open with the cover.

I'm a fan of using painters tape.... pretty low profile, easily removed, stays
on really well. Also the weird blue glow you get when the camera is on tells
you pretty quick "Hey there's a cover on there" where sometimes with the all
blackout covers ... I can't tell.

I renew my calls for all devices to have an led indicator (good on Apple here)
and a physical switch that cuts power to mics and cameras for all devices with
them. With the endless layers of software we have today, I have trouble
trusting anything but cutting power.

~~~
dabernathy89
It does _not_ have to be a bulky cover. I used an extremely low profile webcam
cover on my 2015 MBP for 3 years. I put a similar one on my 16" MBP, and it
destroyed the screen after a couple weeks.

Specifically, this is the webcam cover I was using:

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07C24NBGL/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_i_T...](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07C24NBGL/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_i_TkeSEbCAYCA73)

~~~
txcwpalpha
I've been using this exact same cover on 3 different MBPs (yes I use 3 MBPs
simultaneously, a 2016 13", a 2019 13", and 2019 15") for almost a year and
haven't noticed anything even remotely close to it damaging the screen on any
of them.

I actually just tested it, and the cover doesn't even make contact with the
lower half of the MacBook when closed. The cover fits into the trackpad area,
which is recessed. I don't see how it could possibly damage the screen without
me putting enough pressure on it where the screen would have been damaged
regardless.

Does the 16" have a shallower trackpad or a thinner rubber gasket around the
screen than the 13" and 15" models? Even for Apple, it sounds insane that they
would create something so fragile it could be broken by a 0.02" piece of
plastic.

~~~
dabernathy89
I used one on my 2015 MBP for years. It appears that the newer MBP models (and
perhaps the Air as well) are built differently.

Also, to be fair, the webcam cover I used was metal (I didn't realize that
when I bought it).

------
johne20
This happened to me. Twice. I bought a 16" mbp when it was released because
the keyboard of the previous mbp gave me carpal tunnel. I immediately added a
camera cover like I always had done on macs. My screen stopped working a few
days later, but mbp still worked on my external monitor. I took it in and they
replaced the display for free via applecare.

Once I got my mbp back, I added the camera cover again (stupidly). The next
day I opened my mbp, and had a line down the center of my screen. That is when
I realized what had happened. I then told Apple exactly what I think happened.
And to their credit, the replaced it (again) for free.

Over the next weeks, I received 3 different calls from Apple staff, with
seemingly increased responsibilities. They all asked detailed questions
investigating what I thought happened and in what sequence.

I am not surprised to see this support article.

~~~
aloer
What kind of cover was this?

My company provides a ~1.2mm thick plastic cover with a little slider inside.
I didn't even trust it enough to be used on a thinkpad, much less a macbook

What I do now is either ripping off a small piece of the sticky top of sticky
notes (keep the remainder for later reuse) or a piece of washi tape.

~~~
praseodym
Post-it Page Markers or Flags work great as well and are already the correct
size for most laptops.

~~~
eternalban
You mean the small plastic strips? I mix 3 colors on top of each other and
snip off the non-adhesive end. Works great, even looks ok, with minimal raised
surface.

------
sologoub
Or Apple could just include a cover into the lid, like many other
manufacturers already do. For example:
[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/c...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/circuitbreaker/2018/2/7/16979810/hp-
elitebook-zbook-2018-announced-webcam-cover-g5)

~~~
eugeniub
Apple: Not even in your dreams pal.

~~~
sologoub
So true!

------
vngzs
If you're going to cover it, use a sticker, like the EFF stickers here[0].
They're reusable, so you can move it to the side for meetings. I used a hard
plastic MongoDB-branded sliding camera cover on a couple laptops[1], and its
presence appears to have contributed to backlight bleed like this[2].

[0]: [https://supporters.eff.org/shop/laptop-camera-cover-set-
ii](https://supporters.eff.org/shop/laptop-camera-cover-set-ii)

[1]: [https://www.amazon.com/C-Slide-Sliding-Computers-
Chromebooks...](https://www.amazon.com/C-Slide-Sliding-Computers-Chromebooks-
Consoles/dp/B00AZ639VG)

[2]: [https://i.imgur.com/P264KiI.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/P264KiI.jpg)

~~~
windexh8er
Came here to say this. Have been using the EFF stickers for years and everyone
always asks about them vs the kludgey plastic ones everyone wedges in there
that Apple is making note of. I've used them in the past on my phones as well,
but given the advent of multiple front facing cameras this has become more of
a pain. I purchased some of this sticker material a while ago with the intent
to try and laser cut some specific designs. This was a good reminder!

~~~
mrignacio
What type of material is it exactly? I want to source some for myself but
don't know what type of sticker will be "ultra-removeable" and reusable.

~~~
windexh8er
That's the part that I was struggling to figure out. I ended up purchasing
some reusable vinyl window stick material from a hobby shop, but have yet to
test it.

------
ivanhoe
Apple is completely missing the point. Primary reason to cover cameras is to
avoid anything being recorded by accident, not just to stop hackers RATing
you. Now with everyone working remote this has become even more important as
it's super easy to get into the video conference with wrong settings and end
up in an embarrassing situation. Activity LED doesn't help with this, when you
see it damage is already done and Youtube is full of zoom bloopers to prove
this. Of course, preventing hackers accessing your camera is just an extra
feature. So I'll keep my cover on regardless what Apple says. I use just a
piece of regular paper so it's not entirely blocking the light, light sensors
work just fine, and also it's very thin so laptop shuts down normally without
any problems.

------
etaioinshrdlu
> The camera is engineered so that it can’t activate without the camera
> indicator light also turning on.

Has anyone torn down the hardware and verified this lately?

It should not be a complicated feature at all. Just ensure you have the same
voltage applied to your LED circuit as your camera circuit, and enforce that
by having them on the same wire...

~~~
noja
Wait: that's not the same as having a camera cover.

A camera cover guarantees that the camera can only work when the camera is
uncovered.

A camera _light_ alerts you once the camera _is already on_.

~~~
markstos
Important distinction. If your microphone is compromised, your web cam might
be triggered to turn on just long enough to take a photo, or the camera could
turn on only when the mic is quiet and there are indications the person is not
engaged with the computer.

~~~
runarberg
Note that this is not only about security. Sometimes a user simply makes a
mistake, or have an app configured the wrong way, and accidentally turn on
their cameras without intending to. Nothing has been compromised, everything
is secure, but they still suffered an unexpected exposure. A camera cover will
prevent many of these situations.

------
hyko
Here’s the document explaining how it’s _physically_ impossible to use the
microphone when the MacBook lid is closed: [https://support.apple.com/en-
gb/guide/security/secbbd20b00b/...](https://support.apple.com/en-
gb/guide/security/secbbd20b00b/1/web/1)

Where is the equivalent document explaining how it’s _physically_ impossible
for the camera to be active without the green LED lighting up?

~~~
abstrakraft
They also claim that if you add a (MFI-compliant) case to the iPad, and close
it, that this similarly disconnects the microphone. The simplest mechanism to
do this sounds complicated enough that it reduces my confidence in the
mechanism. The point of half the comments in this thread is that a hardware
interlock mechanism needs to be dead simple. This sounds like a step in the
wrong direction.

~~~
arrrg
How could a complicated mechanism compared to no mechanism be a step in the
wrong direction?

~~~
abstrakraft
The whole point of this thread is that Apple is telling us to not rely on dead
simple devices (camera covers, tape, etc.), and instead to trust their
internal mechanism that they claim can't be beat. If people take them at face
value, but the mechanism is in fact complex enough to admit an exploitable
vulnerability, that's a net loss of security, and is a step in the wrong
direction.

~~~
arrrg
But you are talking about microphones which you cannot simply cover.

I admit, muffling them is better than nothing – but in the case of microphones
Apple doesn’t even advise you not to cover them.

Either way, this is just an effect of common covers seemingly breaking
screens. Which sucks. However, depending on your risk profile the re-assurance
of a hardware solution that lights up the LED might be plenty for you.

------
whywhywhywhy
Half of my office has camera covers, honestly at this point I'd have a lot of
respect for any maker who had a physical mechanism to their camera... Sort of
like the original iSight [https://www.coolsmartphone.com/wp-
content/uploads/2019/05/is...](https://www.coolsmartphone.com/wp-
content/uploads/2019/05/isigiht1-1280x720.jpg)

~~~
kilo_bravo_3
I've never understood physical covers, then again I am never in a compromising
position in front of my laptop.

Any malware that can take pictures can record keystrokes. I want no cover so I
can see the activity light because knowing the webcam is on is more important
than it being on.

The (pennsylvania?) school district webcam spying scandal got kicked off
because a boy noticed his webcam light coming on. If it had been covered would
he have noticed?

No, the school district wouldn't have had pictures of him, but they still
would have screengrabs, audio, and keystrokes and he likely never would have
noticed.

Take all of the pictures of my double chin that you want.

I want to know that my webcam is coming on without my authorization so I can
root out the spyware that is keylogging.

Passwords > Pics

If you're the type whose life will be ruined by pictures taken by your webcam,
by all means cover it up. I'm too old and hairy to be blackmailed with nudie
pics.

Having my passwords leak would seriously cramp my style, though.

And no, nobody is going to waste a zero-day that can reprogram a webcam
controller to disable the light (if possible and often it is not) on a nudie-
pics malware. They are going to use it to make actual money.

~~~
godelski
I don't understand why people have window curtains and close them at night. If
you have them closed then you can't see the person spying on you outside. Door
locks are more important.

This is what you sound like. The things can be used in conjunction with one
another. It is not an _or_ scenario, you can have both. You can also have
covers which don't cover the indicator. You use different deterrent mechanisms
for different threats. It is as simple as that.

~~~
rahkiin
In the Netherlands we don’t really close curtains at night. I also have no
camera cover.

~~~
iso947
Don’t you have bright lights outside? Do you like being woken at the crack of
dawn?

~~~
efreak
I live in Los Angeles. If there's bright lights outside, it means the guy down
the street is being an asshole again (he keeps rearranging his outdoor sensor
light to point out at different parts of the street) or someone kicked a
neighbor's garden lights (why do people even have these?)

------
soulofmischief
_If you close your Mac notebook with a camera cover installed, you might
damage your display because the clearance between the display and keyboard is
designed to very tight tolerances._

Doesn't this sound like an engineering oversight and not a user error? Why are
camera covers not just part of the design? My phone camera physically retracts
when not in use.

~~~
DanBC
> Why are camera covers not just part of the design?

I guess Apple are going to say that they'd rather focus on the security of the
OS and computer to prevent unauthorised software from being able to access the
camera than on a mostly cosmetic doodad.

~~~
runarberg
Above in the thread it has been noted that camera covers are not only about
security. But also about preventing accidental exposure, e.g. when you
accidentally click the wrong button in a meeting app, or if your app is
misconfigured to start with the camera on, forget to close an app, etc. Camera
covers helps prevent you from these potential embarrassments.

~~~
dzhiurgis
I’d be more embarrassed being seen wearing a camera cover

~~~
soulofmischief
Are you similarly embarrassed when you close your blinds at night?

~~~
dzhiurgis
I use curtains, but only to isolate the light in the morning.

This is a tech forum. I'm much more embarrassed not being able to use Zoom for
the first time, rather than a distributed team see me laying on a couch for a
brief moment.

~~~
Dahoon
Sound very insecure.

~~~
dzhiurgis
Yes I'm more insecure about my qualifications than my appearance.

You people sound insecure about your appearance.

~~~
runarberg
What? Why are you saying this? What does this have to do with anything? Are
you just tying to be right or something? Are you trying to win an argument?
Like why do you even care about my own sense of embarrassment? Why should I
care if you personally don’t feel embarrassed in situations where I might?
What are you trying to proof? Who are you trying to be?

------
_bxg1
People are suggesting just using tape, but the issue is when you want to un-
cover it frequently (which is probably more common now than a few months ago).
For a couple dollars you can get a thin, nice-looking little plastic cover
that you can actually slide out of the way when you need to use it. Most of
these are thin enough not to be a problem, but they vary, and even the really
thin ones usually don't quite let your Macbook close all the way, potentially
putting pressure on a narrow point.

~~~
dogma1138
TBH the thing I’ve noticed is just how fast people stopped turning cameras on
during Webex.

Before the nearly everyone at my company what was WFH or was joining from
their laptop rather than a video conferencing room had their camera on.

Within like a week of the lockdown people stopped and I can imagine why you
stopped dressing, stopped shaving heck I can hear bedsheets on some of the
calls I attend.

Pretty much now the cameras are useless.

~~~
_bxg1
That's some pretty broad-strokes-painting. I'm still on a video call every
week, and I'm not in as many meetings as most of my coworkers. I'm also in two
separate weekly online roleplaying game groups and we use cameras for those
because it's much less fun without the added expressiveness.

------
wtallis
Tangentially related: I have an HP notebook that has a physical webcam switch
near the USB ports and microSD slot. This switch is not wired to the webcam in
any way. It's a USB HID device. You need to install _software drivers_ to make
that switch function as a control of the webcam. That is insane.

------
reaperducer
Looking at the comments here, I guess I'm the only one who finds sadness that
Apple even has to publish this document.

Some of those novelty and promotional camera covers are really quite thick.
And it just seems like common sense to me that you wouldn't close a laptop
with one of those things on. Just like I wouldn't close my laptop with a pen
or a ham sandwich tucked into it.

But I guess Apple has had enough complaints that they had to issue something.
I can only hope that the department that writes these things was shaking its
head the whole time.

~~~
dabernathy89
This is the one that destroyed the screen on my 16" MBP. 0.023 inches thick.

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07C24NBGL/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_i_T...](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07C24NBGL/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_i_TkeSEbCAYCA73)

~~~
jorge-d
It's quite similar to the one I've been using on my 2018 15" MBP for the past
two years. Can you give more information on the cause of the problem? Did you
close the macbook very firmly and it broke?

~~~
dabernathy89
I also used one on a 15" MBP (albeit 2015 model) for a long time with no
trouble. I don't recall closing the lid particularly hard when it broke,
though I may have.

------
chuckleMuscle
A person I with used to work for the UK’s Atomic Weapons Establishment.
Apparently their former employer’s preferred method of disabling the camera on
a MacBook was to break the lens using a nail and hammer...

~~~
saagarjha
Isn’t the lens behind the screen glass? How did they break the lens without
shattering the screen too?

------
sfgweilr4f
I'll put tape over the camera. Apple can't reasonably provide guarantees about
the camera. I have reasonable doubt they can't provide privacy around that
camera with the current designs.

This is true even if the indicator light only powers on when the camera is on.
That is not enough guarantee.

This is also true even if the indicator stays on for several seconds after the
camera was in use. I might not notice that indicator so there is no guarantee
from that either.

Even with hardware keys, encryption and everything else, none of it beats a
cover over the camera. A sliding or moving physical cover always wins. That is
the guarantee. But Apple will not allow or tolerate that. Because they
emphasize design over function.

So, close your device with a cover over the camera with a thin piece of tape.
Its up to Apple to make that possible without damage.

Any other answer is interesting but not a guarantee. There is always some
caveat to the suggestions. But an actual sliding or otherwise physical cover
always wins.

Perhaps we might even address the microphone issue...

------
miles
> "Designed to protect your privacy, Mac notebooks have a camera indicator
> light to let you know when the camera is on. ... Published Date: July 02,
> 2020"

Perhaps Apple missed these?

2013: iSeeYou: Disabling the MacBook Webcam Indicator LED
[https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569](https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569)

2016: Your Mac’s Camera Can Be Hacked [https://www.intego.com/mac-security-
blog/your-macs-camera-ca...](https://www.intego.com/mac-security-blog/your-
macs-camera-can-be-hacked/)

2016: Former NSA employee: This hack gains access to your Mac's webcam
[https://www.cnet.com/news/mac-webcam-hack-ex-nsa-
employee/](https://www.cnet.com/news/mac-webcam-hack-ex-nsa-employee/)

~~~
NovemberWhiskey
>2013: iSeeYou: Disabling the MacBook Webcam Indicator LED
[https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569](https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569)

... applies only to older Mac notebooks from like 2008 period which are long
since obsolete according to Apple's announced support policy.

>2016: Your Mac’s Camera Can Be Hacked [https://www.intego.com/mac-security-
blog/your-macs-camera-ca...](https://www.intego.com/mac-security-blog/your-
macs-camera-ca..).

... refers specifically the exploit above.

>2016: Former NSA employee: This hack gains access to your Mac's webcam
[https://www.cnet.com/news/mac-webcam-hack-ex-nsa-
employee/](https://www.cnet.com/news/mac-webcam-hack-ex-nsa-employee/)

... is an attack that depends on the camera already being in use by another
application and therefore has nothing to do with the camera indicator.

~~~
alunchbox
There's a reason Zukerberg's laptop has its mic and camera tapped up. It
doesn't matter what device you use unless there's a physical switch to
disconnect it'll never be safe. Software can ALWAYS have zero days, just
because it hasn't been exploited yet doesn't mean it can't be.

~~~
the-pigeon
But can't you specifically wire the indicator light to always be lit if the
camera has power?

I don't see Apple claiming they've done that but a correct design would make
the indicator light work that way and be related to software at all. Meaning
you could only disable the indicator light by physically modifying the device.

~~~
ohazi
This is the only correct design, yet almost nobody does this. One of the
challenges is verifying that this was done correctly.

You may be able to verify a design like this once with a teardown, but it's
impractical to verify _your particular_ device, and next to impossible to re-
verify this every time you leave your laptop unattended.

~~~
_kst_
My work laptop (a Thinkpad) has a built-in plastic slider that physically
covers the camera. If something activates the camera while that cover is
closed, it won't see anything.

~~~
int_19h
Not only that, but this feature is also present in X1, which is plenty thin.

~~~
mcv
I came here to post exactly this about my X1E. First laptop I've seen that has
a builtin slider (though I'm sure there are others).

------
foofoo55
Though fixed many years ago, there may be a lack of trust due to previous
ability for malware to take snap shots without turning on the camera LED.

[https://www.theregister.com/2013/12/19/apple_isight_webcam_l...](https://www.theregister.com/2013/12/19/apple_isight_webcam_led_hack/)

~~~
pantaloony
People also do it so they don't accidentally open something that's got the
camera enabled. If you're a school teacher answering questions for students in
the evening you don't want to click the wrong thing and turn on video, or
close the lid with something running then open it later, having forgotten, and
now you're broadcasting. Stuff like that. Whether teh haxx0rs can get at the
camera is irrelevant for _that_ reason of using covers.

Personally I wish all my devices had hardware toggles for camera and mic,
both. Phone included, since it's only a "phone" a small fraction of the time
these days, the rest of the time it's a small Web-stuff device.

------
Existenceblinks
Why is physical shutter not a standard? wait..

I don't trust hardware kill switch either; anything is not visible right in
front of my eyes. Mass product don't expect normal people to technically know
about circuit design.

How hard it is for a big tech company whose hardware suppose to be best in the
market, to design a built-in thin cover .. like camera shutter that's invented
very first days camera invented.

ps; by shutter, I don't mean an actual light collector functionality although
.. it's hard to argue that.

For macbook mic, I use hot glue to seal it. It's pretty good at blocking sound
wave (I tested it).

------
gumby
Apple should have an indicator light for the microphone as well, and to avoid
confusion,far from the camera.

I don’t think it’s possible to block the mic.

~~~
markstos
It's possible to have hardware kill switches that can't be compromised via
software. Apple opts not to include them.

Purism laptops include them.
[https://puri.sm/products/librem-14/](https://puri.sm/products/librem-14/)

~~~
samrolken
Apple includes this on the latest iPads and Macs with the T2 chip.

[https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/03/apple-hardware-
microphone-...](https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/03/apple-hardware-microphone-
disconnect-ipads/)

~~~
gumby
Only when the cover is shut. That prevents an important set of attacks. But a
mechanical switch in the power connection to the two devices keeps you from
accidentally broadcasting when on, say, a Zoom call.

------
runxel
Just as a social observation I noticed a pattern which always struck me pretty
hard:

Nearly all (say 9 out of 10, and not, it's not an exaggeration) of my friends
– me included FWIW – have some kind of cover over their webcams. This is true
even for people who you would describe as the opposite of tech-savvy.
Sometimes these folks even have no ad blocker installed and use Chrome
happily.

But still: Everybody has something over their webcams. It is truly ubiquitous!
Might it be we dislike the fact something like an eye stares us right into the
face all the time?

~~~
rahkiin
And no microphone cover, and no cover for either on their phones

------
ChuckNorris89
When I moved to Germany I was surprised how everyone taped the camera on their
laptops with these small, thin, easy to remove stickers that left no residue
made for bookmarking your notebooks.

This should still work on Macs as a sticker is thin enough not to damage the
display.

~~~
dguo
That's what I use as well, and I'm still using the same one that I started
with. It's lasted over a year.

I appreciate this line:

> The camera is engineered so that it can’t activate without the camera
> indicator light also turning on. This is how you can tell if your camera is
> on.

But I still want a physical assurance that the camera can't see anything. I
don't want to have to count on myself noticing the light.

Some Lenovo ThinkPads have built-in shutters, and I wish Apple would do the
same for MacBooks. In my ideal laptop, it would also physically disable the
microphone.

------
kebman
Yet another reason to buy something _better_ than a MacBook. :) Don't get me
wrong, I used to love Macs. But they really started screwing their own
prosumers, ohhh, back in 2011 when they made Final Cut Pro X into a "for
dummies" application, rather than the professional tool it used to be (this is
a discussion all on its own btw, and while it's not clear cut, the change
wasn't welcome at the time). From then on things have mostly gone down hill.
That year marks a clear change in their philosophy, from prosumer-made
products and to a far more consumer and fad-based focus as a "luxury" brand.
Except the whole premise for buying Apple products used to be that they were
better for professional production environments. I really hope they'll get
back to this tried and proven mode, instead of what they're doing now.

~~~
fastball
What notebook is better than the new 16" MBP?

------
colanderman
This is not helpful advice for those who wish to prevent their camera from
turning on in the first place.

------
everdrive
So, Apple has done a nice job of making the sure the LED comes on when the
webcam is in use. Unfortunately, there are still very good use cases for
webcam covers.

\- The computer has malware which controls the webcam. Although it's nice that
the light correctly alerts you the webcam is in use, the malware can still get
some pictures off before you can act.

\- You're not very good with computers, and so you don't know how to change
Zoom settings, and you want a surefire way to ensure that you camera will not
be active when you join a call.

\- You're just fine with computers, but the app has changed its defaults for
some reason, and/or;

\- Your company mandates a new app which you're either not familiar with, or
doesn't have appropriate settings.

~~~
sowbug
\- You can't see.

------
2trill2spill
I've had tape over my camera on my mac pro for over 10 years and have had no
problems. And no Apple I don't trust the light indicator.

~~~
Tempest1981
A small square of electrical tape works nicely, and can be moved aside if need
be. But will it cause damage?

------
napier
> Downside of covering your MacBook camera: "If you close your Mac notebook
> with a camera cover installed, you might damage your display because the
> clearance between the display and keyboard is designed to very tight
> tolerances. Covering the built-in camera might also interfere with the
> ambient light sensor and prevent features like automatic brightness and True
> Tone from working."

Upside: a square of post-it or similar stuck over the camera gives you peace
of mind assurance that this particular lens of the digital panopticon isn't
watching you.

------
tluyben2
My mbp cam light started to be always on about a year ago, so I have a sticker
over it. They cannot fix trivial things so it cannot be trusted.

I checked for malware; nothing; if it is malware, the scanner did not find it.

------
unexaminedlife
I cover my camera (not MacBook, but I did when I had one). Partially because
of what you read about hacks.

BUT, the main reason I cover my camera is as a stop gap to user error. I have
started chats with people (co-workers, etc) where I accidentally enabled the
camera. Wasn't entirely "presentable" either, wearing just an undershirt or
haven't shaved for several days, etc. Luckily all they saw was a black square.
Will never NOT cover my cameras when not in use because of these experiences.

------
bargle0
I use a piece of black sticky note cut out to cover the camera. It doesn't
interfere with the closing mechanism, it comes off clean, and it doesn't
require trusting Apple.

------
moonchild
The real meat of TFA:

> Make sure the camera cover is not thicker than an average piece of printer
> paper (0.1mm)

~~~
pfranz
I think being aware of covering the ambient light/True Tone sensor is also
significant.

------
jazzabeanie
> Covering the built-in camera might also interfere with the ambient light
> sensor and prevent features like automatic brightness and True Tone from
> working.

I don’t see the LED come on any time I’m not actually using the camera, so I’m
guessing the True Tone sensor is near the camera and it doesn’t actually use
the camera. So as long as the sticker only covers the camera it should be ok?

Also, my Mac has a lip around the edge of the screen which is probably thicker
than most stickers.

------
andy_ppp
I love how everyone worries about their computer camera when there is no light
for the camera and facial recognition hardware on the front of your phone...

------
karaterobot
We're surrounded by tiny, meaningless LEDs. I've even tried to avoid them, but
right now I can see three of them from where I'm sitting, and if I turn my
head away from the corner where my computer desk is positioned, I can see
three more (one of them, on an electric toothbrush, is blinking to tell me
it's fully charged...).

Sometimes a light being on mean "everything's okay, don't even worry about me"
but sometimes LEDs being on means "pay attention, this is important!", and
sometimes LEDs being on means "LEDs are so cheap, we threw one on this device
for no reason".

Second, there is no shared 'vocabulary' of lighting that tells you
consistently what a light being on means (consider how in this case, Apple
wants us to consider a green light to be a warning indicator).

Given this, I'm not at all convinced that a light being on would be enough to
warn most people that they're being spied on, or that most people would even
notice another small LED being on in the first place. Consider changing this
UX!

------
proc0
The first thing that was said in my InfoSec 101 class was that the best
security is at the hardware level. If you really want to secure something,
keep in inside a room with a lock, or chain it. Software will never be
guaranteed security, and not having a camera cover is asking for something to
go wrong, whether it's during a meeting or someone hacking into it.

------
XaspR8d
> The camera is engineered so that it can’t activate without the camera
> indicator light also turning on. This is how you can tell if your camera is
> on.

Is this verifiably true? I trust Apple on security matters more than the
_average_ laptop maker, but the fact that so many of these indicator lights
are software-controlled erodes my trust in basically all of them.

~~~
pfranz
This [1] is the best source I've seen. 2008 era Mac laptops definitely had
that exploit, but since then they've made hardware changes.

> All cameras after that one were different: The hardware team tied the LED to
> a hardware signal from the sensor: If the (I believe) vertical sync was
> active, the LED would light up. There is NO firmware control to
> disable/enable the LED. The actual firmware is indeed flashable, but the
> part is not a generic part and there are mechanisms in place to verify the
> image being flashed. […]

[1]
[https://daringfireball.net/2019/02/on_covering_webcams](https://daringfireball.net/2019/02/on_covering_webcams)

------
YetAnotherNick
I don't understand this debate around blocking camera. If your laptop has
already been hacked such that the attacker has access to disable the green
light(if we could be disable by prevailed account in the worst case), wouldn't
you have more serious things to worry about? I mean worst case they could film
me nude or something.

~~~
dividedbyzero
That's correct, but it's not why I have a cover on my camera. I really like
the peace of mind of knowing that my camera really is off during a meeting. I
guess it's the same for many people, especially working from home without a
dedicated office.

------
blue1
A post-it note is about 0.07 mm thick, so according to the article it’s within
the allowed limit of 0.1 mm.

------
jcun4128
Lol I have electrical tape with a piece of paper on the part that goes over
the camera lens. Use both 2015 and 16"

Also not sure about this "tight tolerance" as there's a rubber seam all the
way around the screen that would have a gap between the camera and laptop body
right?

------
low_key
"might also interfere with the ambient light sensor and prevent features like
automatic brightness"

Oh, if I could only get automatic brightness to actually turn off!!!! I keep
the sensor covered with electrical tape because that's the closest I've been
able to get.

~~~
pfranz
[https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/change-your-
display...](https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/change-your-displays-
brightness-mchlp2704/mac)

Does that preference not work for you?

------
ahupp
My Lenovo X1 has a physical slider that covers the camera. I trust this a lot
more than an LED.

------
fortran77
I'm glad my computer comes with a built-in cover. No need to jerry-rig
anything on. It reminds me of this old Apple ad:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZByDkSuY5c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZByDkSuY5c)

------
tomcooks
The tones used in this article sound very patronising. Maybe it's the matter
of privacy being addressed that gives these "advices" a creepy tone.

I'm glad other laptops have more tolerance for accessories that are a couple
of mm thick.

~~~
mrunkel
Tip: while reading any tone you feel is entirely generated by you.

I just read it and I didn’t get any patronizing or creepy tones.

------
beshrkayali
Apple should probably make a physical camera cover. I have it on my Thinkpad
X1 carbon and I love it. What's missing is physical microphone and wifi
switches, I don't know if there's a modern machine that has all three.

~~~
mpartel
[https://puri.sm/products/librem-14/](https://puri.sm/products/librem-14/) ?

------
GekkePrutser
I just tape mine off.

Apple webcams are pretty horrible anyway (current generation is even worse
than a few ones ago). Noisy and blurry in anything less than ideal lighting
conditions. So if I'm on a serious videocall I use an external one anyway.

------
harha
It looks like Apples quest for even slicker devices has taken its next toll,
both the MacBook retina and the original touchbar work fine with a cover.

The product line up is in a weird limbo between professional and luxury and
it’s difficult to move away given the alternatives (I have Linux and Windows
on my workstation, one needs a lot of attention to move beyond 95% working and
the documentation just isn’t always good, the other is very annoying with ads
and all sorts of stuff that is integrated and the lack of consistency) even
though I miss my old thinkpad and appreciate how they think of business
features like thinkshutter.

------
PeterStuer
Dear Apple Support,

I am fully confident I can manage a physical shutter in front of my camera. I
am absolutely way less confident that I can manage avoiding a myriad of dark
patterned traps and mazes to have each app configured exactly right so as to
not have given it permission to turn on my camera at inconvenient times.

Yes, I do sometimes participate in conference video calls with only my dress
shirt on over my short sweatpants, and that shutter gives me the confidence
that my co-callers need not be exposed to my state of partial underdressing at
inappropriate times. Call me Luddite, but your little green light isn't doing
that for me.

------
ivalm
But the problem is not indication that attack happened (light turned on). It
is too late if the camera was used even if I was notified!

The camera cover is not an indicator of use, it prevents use. Indicator of use
is not sufficient.

------
dyingkneepad
More than once I was gifted camera-cover plastic things that I could stick to
my laptop cameras. They all had convenient ways to open/close them, and they
all had the logo of the company that was gifting them to me (one was a
proprietary AI software library). I am 100% confident that those plastic
things would indeed damage my display, since they were slightly thick and the
laptop lid wouldn't properly close with them. So I kept the insulating tape
that is currently there, and nothing was damaged. It does make some sense that
this article exists.

------
alanbernstein
Reading this, I had the idea to create a sliding cover, in the same style as
the bulky plastic ones, but made out of a sticky note. Turns out this was not
an original idea, and the person who beat me to it has a much slicker design
than what I had in mind, using a single sticky note, cut in two pieces, with a
symmetric design.

[http://www.linux-
works.de/Wiki/OrigamiWebCamCover?action=Att...](http://www.linux-
works.de/Wiki/OrigamiWebCamCover?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=CamCover.pdf)

------
ph4te
I learned this the hard way with one of these slide covers from CloudFlare I
got at BlackHat Conference. Picked up the Mac with one hand and I heard the
crack. Needlees to say I now have a vinyl type sticky cover I just move on and
off when I need to use the camera. Apple replaced the screen for me for a
small fee of course. [https://www.ipromo.com/promo-products/20101/Custom-
Webcam-Co...](https://www.ipromo.com/promo-products/20101/Custom-Webcam-
Covers.html)

------
oskenso
Just cover the camera with a piece of sticky note paper, problem solved

------
abrowne
I always wonder why the people who cover webcams don't think about the mic.
Isn't that almost worse? It could grab speech even if you aren't right in
front of the camera.

~~~
sky_rw
The much more real-world use case for me is guaranteeing I won't join a video
conference call with my camera on. In light of all the WFH zoom accidental
nudity videos going around, its no surprise camera covers have become more
prevalent.

------
vms20591
Even if we trust that without the LED being on, the camera is never on, it
does actually provide little consolation. Unless Apple has covered every
single scenario, where any program trying to access the camera, can't do so
without the user intervention.

People accidentally leave their laptop lids open, and what if the app they
trusted earlier isn't so anymore and turns on the camera, streaming the
content before it.

Unless Apple has a solution to prevent all these, they shouldn't be giving
such advise.

------
brailsafe
Seems like most/all ppl in this thread are also missing the bit where MacBooks
are just too thin; so much so, that it's hard to even protect the fragile
coating on the screen from damage without something as thin as printer paper
in between it and the keyboard. It's hard for me to remember to put that piece
of paper in there every time, but if I forget, I risk oils from the keyboard
getting on the screen and permanently erodong the anti-reflective coating.

------
all_blue_chucks
Cameras and mics need hardware off-switches on all mobile devices. Not a
digital switch that sends a signal to a CPU - I mean a slider switch that
physically disconnects wires.

------
aaronmdjones
I have something very similar to these [1] (the original item is no longer
listed) on my laptop's webcam and my smartphone's front-facing camera. They've
served me very well, and the former has saved me from a potentially-
embarrassing conference-call-style disaster.

I really don't get Apple's statement here.

[1]
[https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114090118649](https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114090118649)

------
S_A_P
I don’t use the sliding cover. I put black electrical tape over the camera. I
keep a roll in my computer bag in case of an unusual scenario that I would
need to use the camera. As soon as that is over I replace the tape. If it
leaves a sticky residue? Oh well. Sorry. I have a phone if you absolutely need
to see me.

Also- why isn’t the iPhone camera engineered the same way as the Mac? How many
apps/websites would love to have footage of compromising moments?

------
poorman
All the indicator light tells you is that "you are being watched". Not sure
that gives people peace of mind that they won't be watched.

------
sholladay
This could probably be solved by an accessory with a loose flap. Gravity would
naturally ensure that the flap covers the camera when the display is vertical,
but hangs over the edge to avoid getting sandwiched when the lid is closed.
Not sure if the dimensions quite work out for this as Macbooks are very thin,
but with some thoughtful design, I think this concept could work.

------
live_video
Japanese washi tape is the perfect solution to the 'covering the webcam'
problem. It leaves no residue and resticks over and over.

------
jamilbk
An indicator light is good and well but, you kinda have to be present to
monitor it in order to stop it. Someone can record all the video they want if
you’re not around to notice.

And that still leaves the possibility for it to snap a photo of you present at
the computer before you can react to stop it.

So far it has stopped me once or twice from picking my nose on camera. So not
totally useless. /s

------
sockythesock
I am shocked at the people defending apple. A thin piece of tape shouldn't be
enough to damage the laptop. That's terrible design. I hate to make the cliche
comparison, but this is why newer think pads have the camera cover built in.

"Dont cover the camera, YOU could hurt your 2500 dollar device."

In my opinion, this response from apple says:

They didnt know people covered their webcams.

Or

They dont want people covering their webcams.

------
dabernathy89
Yep.

[https://twitter.com/dabernathy89/status/1257341572267548673](https://twitter.com/dabernathy89/status/1257341572267548673)

[https://twitter.com/dabernathy89/status/1257350535440748547](https://twitter.com/dabernathy89/status/1257350535440748547)

------
planar_vector
Can someone help me understand the extent of possible damage by having a
webcam cover? This might at least inform me if its worth the risk.

When Apple says _" you might damage your display because the clearance between
the display and keyboard is designed to very tight tolerances"_, do they mean?

\- the display itself could have scratches?

\- the display connector at the hinge has a chance of weakening?

\- others?

~~~
dabernathy89
Here you go.

[https://twitter.com/dabernathy89/status/1257350535440748547](https://twitter.com/dabernathy89/status/1257350535440748547)

Edit: Also, from my limited research, the repair cost w/out AppleCare+ (or
regular AppleCare if they don't count it as accidental damage) is around
$1,000.

------
pcurve
Not just Apple. I have Lenovo yoga. Put a sliding cover. Now I have cracked
display cover though led panel is ok. Don’t do it folks

------
roland35
This is an interesting side effect of designing a thin, fancy glass display! I
see a lot of people who cover their camera and I appreciate their concerns but
I do trust the green light.

Although... You may not see the light on if you leave your laptop open when
you're away from your desk. I do wish it was easier to get a laptop with no
camera or microphone at all!

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Can you be confident that the light stays on long enough when taking a quick
snapshot?

------
theo31
I broke my 16"'s screen because of this, and they asked me to pay $1000 to fix
it.

This was in January right after the 16" came out.

------
murat124
I've been using this[1] for the last 4 years. It's soft fabric and it can be
easily removed. The adhesive can be reactivated with a tiny drop of water and
it can be reattached easily.

[1][https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JY8C606](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JY8C606)

------
chansiky
With everything being digital these days, physical failsafes are slowly
becoming a luxury. I love having the vibration/sound-on hard toggle on my
iphone. I don't see why this can't exist for something people feel so insecure
about like webcam functionality - a physical toggle that physically
disconnects webcam wiring.

------
ab_io
Simply cut a small rectangle out of the sticky part of a Post-It note for a
safe camera cover that easy to remove and reuse.

------
elsonrodriguez
If someone can hack your camera, they've probably already got the ability to
capture your screen, keystrokes, and data.

------
ajani
This is moot. I cover it because some apps turn it on, on an action I didn’t
quite expect will start the camera.

If there were an explicit confirmation asking me each time if I really wanted
to allow camera access (like a delete file confirmation), I might consider not
using a cover. And you can have a ‘don’t ask me again’ for this app option.

------
ekianjo
> The FaceTime HD camera built into your Mac computer is designed with your
> privacy in mind and uses a camera indicator light that glows green when the
> camera is active. So you will always know when the camera is on.

Erm, the whole point is that you can't trust this kind of indicator on an OS
that's completely closed source.

~~~
pfranz
My understanding is that the LED is hard-wired the power source of the camera
sensor. There's no separate software command to turn the LED on. All Macs run
Windows and most run Linux pretty well. So you /could/ audit at least one open
source software implementation.

However, like many others have mentioned in this thread, personally I see the
value in having a physical cover in addition.

------
dreamcompiler
Hahaha.

My $5k MBP is rocking a 1 cent square cm of black electrical tape which isn't
going anywhere. If it leaves adhesive residue, I'll wipe it off with alcohol
and replace the tape. My camera is only for stupid zoom meetings, and if I
ruin it I get to tell my colleagues my camera is broken. That's a feature, not
a bug.

------
godfrzero
> If you close your Mac notebook with a camera cover installed, you might
> damage your display because the clearance between the display and keyboard
> is designed to very tight tolerances.

Yep, this is exactly how the screen on my 16" cracked. I'd rather have a 0.5mm
thicker laptop where I can actually cover up the camera.

------
diafygi
The EFF sells some removable stickers that cover your laptop camera while
still being able to close the lid fully.

[https://supporters.eff.org/shop/laptop-camera-cover-set-
ii](https://supporters.eff.org/shop/laptop-camera-cover-set-ii)

Been using them for years, and they work great!

------
celeritascelery
Unless the hardware for the camera is open-source, there is no way to be
confident that mechanism actually works.

------
lmilcin
The track record of Apple keeping their camera light shine when camera is in
use does not strike confidence and that's why people want to use something
more advanced like tape.

Unfortunately, everybody is focused on camera and forget that way more
valuable information can be leaked through microphone and other sensors.

------
nick-sf
This could be mitigated simply by adding other pads/spacers with the same
thickness around the screen bezel. This would reduce cracking chances, though
maybe pressure right in the center top-bottom and left-right could crack the
screen due to the gap between the screen and keyboard.

------
cguess
If a hacker can modify the firmware on your Macbook to somehow turn on a
hardwired camera without turning on the LED you're so beyond screwed it's not
worth mentioning. This means they already have full sudo access to your entire
entire machine, all encryption keys, everything.

------
rudewater
So, their suggestion is to "Make sure the camera cover is not thicker than an
average piece of printer paper." and also "Avoid using a camera cover that
leaves adhesive residue."? Good luck finding a cover that is thinner than a
piece of paper and is also not tape.

------
aczerepinski
If they sold a model without a camera for the same price, I would have bought
that. The camera on MacBooks is terrible anyway, and you can buy a USB camera
that's significantly better for less than $100.

Since that isn't an option, I keep a square torn from a post-it note over the
camera.

------
creativeCak3
It’s very sad that some users may associate Apple==Security. NO piece of
software is secured on this planet. If it’s programmable(even through
Assembly), then a programmer can break through it. I will cover my webcam
physically, even if I am running linux, thank you very much.

------
mistersquid
There are good reasons to want a camera cover that physically blocks the
camera from being used that are not addressed by an indicator light
(especially prevention versus disclosing).

But my guess is Apple recommends that users not block the camera because Face
ID will someday make it to macOS.

~~~
dschuetz
Shame. I guess Apple either better includes a physical cover soon, or bury
their always-on FaceID plans.

------
muzani
This seems like a massive UX issue in that a lot of people want it closed and
that they're putting the light sensor close to it. In the future, they should
put a lid over it. People seem to be more worried about accidentally opening
FB live or Zoom rather than hacking.

------
InafuSabi
Only hard switches can guarantee blocks to equipment. Any soft switch can be
overridden.

I use electrical isolation tape on all cams pointed at me, always on androids
& even on linux notebooks.

I always physically disconnect mics I dont use, if in notebooks I put a blob
on removable glue on them

------
semerda
Is this in response to FlexGate?
[https://www.macrumors.com/2020/05/08/flexgate-class-
action-l...](https://www.macrumors.com/2020/05/08/flexgate-class-action-
lawsuit/)

------
Iolaum
Genuine question. Why are people worrying so much about the camera but none
talks about the microphone? Whenever I think about it, the microphone is able
to gather far more harmful information than the camera about what I m doing
close to my laptop.

------
metafunctor
I use web-based teleconferencing almost exclusively. Safari asks every time
for permission to use the camera.

It would, of course, be better if camera access could be configured to require
a Touch ID every time, controlled in T2 obviously. I would trust that.

------
anonymousiam
[https://www.inc.com/john-brandon/why-the-movie-snowden-
will-...](https://www.inc.com/john-brandon/why-the-movie-snowden-will-make-
you-put-a-piece-of-tape-on-your-webcam.html)

------
flattone
If they would sell a laptop without a camera. I have never needed a camera on
a laptop.

Anyway EFF camera stickers work GREAT

[https://supporters.eff.org/shop/stickers](https://supporters.eff.org/shop/stickers)

------
vivekweb2013
I wouldn't trust the indicator light, its not a mechanical switch, its
something programmed that means - you know what I mean. I would prefer
covering with a tape, I'm doing it for a long and it didn't damaged anything.

------
brailsafe
They should amend this article to mention that because they haven't updated
the camera in 7 years, customers should rest assured in knowing that even if
compromised, nobody will be able to make anything out on the other end ;)

------
ryanmcbride
According to that it's fine if it's thin enough. I always just use a little
piece of electrical tape. Not really worried about spying just like the piece
of mind that I won't accidentally be seen nude on a zoom call.

------
rglover
I've had my barn door over my camera for years. It prevents a perfect seal but
my screen works great. I'm sure this is valid in one way or another, but I
don't buy this for a second. _Adjusts tinfoil hat_

------
natch
> The camera is engineered so that it can’t activate without the camera
> indicator light also turning on.

Unless your laptop has been rerouted to Ft Meade for custom modifications
prior to its delivery by our shipping partners.

------
stunt
I have two monitors connected to my laptop. There is a good chance that I will
not even notice the LED for first few minutes.

I’m using a thin cover. But I used to cover it with a folded piece of paper
before finding this cover.

------
dialamac
I think the underlying stupidity is that no matter how good or bad the
indicator is, that’s is fundamentally different than blocking the camera
altogether.

This is like telling you to not use a lock if you have an alarm.

------
mytailorisrich
Huawei laptops have the camera fitted in a dummy key on the keyboard.

You have to push the key for the camera to pop up.

This solves the issue of privacy nicely and frees space around the screen.

The slight downside is that the camera is obviously lower.

------
oskenso
> The camera is engineered so that it can’t activate without the camera
> indicator light also turning on. This is how you can tell if your camera is
> on.

I'd assume this is done in firmware for the camera module?

~~~
goldfishlover
I still prefer a hardware solution or even a toggle, 1\2 the reason I like the
cover is less for privacy and more to prevent joining meetings with the camera
on when I'm not ready

removes the need to always be thinking about some random indicator being on or
off

------
ccktlmazeltov
I have personally used a camera cover on 4 macbook pros and 1 macbook air, I
have friends and colleagues who have done so as well, I've never heard of
anyone having an issue. Just my 2cents.

------
catoc
No amount of tech or trust beats a black sticky tape. Thin enough to not
damage anything; Removed and re-applied in a second without leaving residu;
Zero discussion whether it will work or not

------
CapitalistCartr
I don't want a warning light. I don't want audited code. I don't want
encryption. I don't want security updates.

I want the fucking camera to _not_ take pictures without my turning it on.

~~~
valuearb
Great news, Mac camera lights are hardwired to the camera, and have been for
ten years, no code necessary!

~~~
stevenwliao
The light only tells them after their camera turns on, so it doesn't address
their concern.

~~~
valuearb
Neither does a camera cover given no one will remember to always close it
after calls.

The hardwired status light is far better, you know as soon as you’ve been
hacked, and well before they are likely to see anything compromising.

~~~
stevenwliao
Privacy isn't binary. It's a spectrum. A light and sometimes remembering to
close the camera cover is better than a light and no cover.

------
tartoran
Lenovos have a physical cover that can be shut when camera is not in use. It’s
paranoia free and tape is no longer needed for that. Maybe apple could do
something similar for their users comfort

------
k_sze
I put a piece of Scotch tape and blacken the area just around the “pupil” with
a permanent marker.

This way, I can still see the indicator light.

You could use something like acrylic paint if you are extra cautious/paranoid.

------
IndySun
Apple were boastful of the 'precise engineering', in a different way, of the
iPads warping frame, I see to remember... You are as full of crap, Apple, as
you are to be admired.

------
mitko
For what it's worth, EFF has privacy stickers which are easy to re-apply
multiple times and should be thin enough to close the laptop fine. I've been
using them for a while.

------
gpvos
Having a mechanically guaranteed way to cover your webcam is a must. Apple
should just add a built-in mechanical switch. If that makes their laptop a
millimeter thicker then boo hoo.

------
collinmanderson
It would be nice if I could acknowledge missed phone calls on my Mac without
turning my camera on.

I believe it’s only possible with the FaceTime app, which turns the camera on
when opening the app.

~~~
t31
Yep, and keeps it on, my housemate has Facetime open all the time and no
camera cover, every time I walk by his laptop the camera light is on,
defeating the point of it if it's always on?

------
mavsman
Camera covers most cost less than a dollar. Why doesn't Apple just build a
physical one into their laptops? I wonder what they could come up with for
microphones as well.

~~~
jankiehodgpodge
Because it would undermine trust in their system.

------
rgbrenner
_As an alternative to a camera cover, use the camera indicator light to
determine if your camera is active_

I've been thinking about privacy all wrong. I thought it was about preventing
access to my data... but Apple has cleared up my misunderstanding and now I
know that it's just about being notified when my data is stolen.

Everyone feel free to post your credit card numbers... your privacy is secure,
since your bank will let you know in the form of a bill when it's accessed
without your permission.

Thanks Apple!

~~~
mirimir
If Apple makes such high-end stuff, and is marketing on privacy, why can't
they spring for hardware switches? Pine64 does, and they're by no means high-
end. Not by price, anyway.

~~~
dahfizz
Better yet, Lenovo has a little plastic cover built into the camera under the
lens.

I don't need to trust the implementation of some switch, I can physically
cover up the camera with a nicely integrated cover. No trust required for
about 0.01¢ of plastic.

~~~
dwighttk
I mean... you still have to trust the implementation.

~~~
dahfizz
I can physically see that there is opaque plastic covering the camera lens. I
don't need to trust in the hidden implementation of a LED or switch or
anything. I can physically verify that the camera is disabled - meaning no
trust.

------
lone_haxx0r
> Mac notebooks have a camera indicator light to let you know when the camera
> is on.

That's great, but we'll need the electronic schematics and the OS source code
to trust that.

------
ludwigvan
Broke my Macbook Pro's display after I unplugged my earphones, accidentally
left the tip of the earphone at the edge and closed the lid lightly. So beware
of that too.

------
mads
Most of the time, I have an external monitor connected to the laptop (with the
laptop still open) and I usually wont notice if the camera is on just by
looking at the LED.

------
qserasera
I bet they're going to engineer it harder to cover your camera. I hope we can
make a DIY laptop community.

Apple should not intentionally create a false sense security for its users.

------
pests
The light might not make a difference.

Wasn't there an NSA tool leaked that would turn on the camera, grab a picture,
and have it off again before it would be lit up?

It would be technically possible.

~~~
pfranz
Years ago there was an article about 2008 era Mac laptops that could enable
their cameras without turning on the LED. I believe the camera firmware was
read from RAM on boot. So they just intercepted that. Since then they
redesigned the hardware to tie the LED to the sensor camera source. AFAIK
Apple hasn't published any official documents on this. I, too, would be
curious if it could be hijacked by only taking a still image or modulating the
power, but I haven't of anyone actually do this.

Their laptop cameras haven't changed in like a decade. The only change was
making it physically thinner to match thinner screens. The image quality
actually got a little worse.

------
vincnetas
Does mackbook has dedicated light sensor somewhere near camera, or the same
camera is used to detect ambient light and adjust color temperature and screen
brightness.

------
lnyan
If the the camera indicator light is enough, why did ThinkPad bother to adopt
the camera shutter.

Built-in camera shutter is a great design that really cares about users'
privacy.

------
runjake
I use a small square of 3M yellow sticky sharpie over with black.

That’s what I do for my work MacBook.

At this point, with all the reported QA problems and my own QA problems with
my work MBP, I am completely disinterested in acquiring any Apple notebooks —
especially at their prices.

I babied my 2 year old work MBP and it’s had the keyboard go bad, the video
ribbon go bad, and the batteries expanded enough they popped the case.

I babied this thing. I was careful with it, did all the best practice. The
first failures were just out of warranty and Apple wouldn’t cover it.

In the old days, I always could trust that Apple would make it right. But
those days are long gone. And so is my loyalty.

------
girishso
Too little too late. Wish I knew that before, I broke my MacBook Air camera
with that tiny sliding cover. Tried SMC reset and what not. It works
“sometimes” though.

------
cryptica
Also make sure you don't turn off your microphone, that could damage it too.
The microphone needs regular electricity flow or else it may become
decalibrated.

------
jb775
I use a small piece of black electrical tape to cover the camera, and another
small piece to cover the mic. It peels off easily and retains stickiness
pretty well.

------
cosmodisk
I've got Dell XPS 13. The only camera indicator I trust is sticky tape on top
the camera every time I don't need. Little blinking lights I trust not.

------
catalogia
Forget LEDs, hardware switches, and all the rest, what I want to know is why
Apple is making hardware so fragile that a simple piece of tape might damage
it.

------
martyvis
I'm wondering whether all these paranoid engineers have poked a screwdriver
through their speakers? (Every kid in sure has used a speaker as a mic)

------
victor9000
I use a small strip of black electrical tape and it works out great. It has
virtually no profile and disappears into the black margin of my laptop screen.

------
leogout
How does the smart backlight can adjust luminosity without triggering the
webcam's indicator then ? (genuenly curious, I don't know how it works)

~~~
banana_giraffe
There's a separate ambient light sensor. On some models you can make out the
three separate holes above the monitor, one for the webcam, one for the led,
and one for the light sensor.

I can't for the life of me see it with more recent models, but if block the
camera it's clearly still there since it can respond to light changes, but if
you block enough of the area around the camera, it'll default to assuming
you're in darkness.

------
perryizgr8
Why don't they provide a physical cover for the camera. My HP laptop has a
nice slide cover, in addition to the LED. It great for peace of mind.

------
floatboth
On the Google Pixelbook though, a camera cover is great for closing the
worrying huge gap in between the lid and the touchpad in the closed state! :D

------
bo1024
It's so interesting that we've arrived in a state where people, for good
reason, cannot trust "their" devices in the slightest. On the computer where
you do all your online banking or taxes or whatever, you don't feel safe
without sticking something over the camera.

Makes me very proud to support Purism laptops with their camera/microphone
hardware killswitches and FOSS software (I know FOSS is not the same as
secure, but at least incentives are aligned). On desktop I use FOSS software
and physically plug in a webcam for meetings.

~~~
astrange
> It's so interesting that we've arrived in a state where people, for good
> reason, cannot trust "their" devices in the slightest. On the computer where
> you do all your online banking or taxes or whatever, you don't feel safe
> without sticking something over the camera.

That really doesn't mean anything, because the people who post on here just
like to not trust things. It makes them look cool when they're posting. You
can always use evil maids or Russell's teapot or any argument you like as an
excuse to be cynical, it's not like it can be disproven.

~~~
bo1024
I don't follow you. Lots of people put stickers over their cameras, not just
hacker news posters, and furthermore, I think we all agree they have good
reason to do so, it's not just posturing to look cool. (Also to me, "I bought
a $2700 computer and I can't even trust it not to photograph me" is the
opposite of cool, but I digress.) Also, I trust my chair, my bicycle, my car
to a great extent (made in 2001 though), and quite a few other kinds of
technology. So I don't understand what you're saying here.

------
thread_id
I find that using black electrical tape works just fine and fits within the
space between the display and the keyboard without any problems at all.

------
bwooceli
One More Thing: the iNote. This magical pad of sticky notes will elegantly
cover the camera and preserve the structural integrity of your display.

------
vulcan01
What's the problem with the following? Why are y'all complaining?

> Make sure the camera cover is not thicker than an average piece of printer
> paper

------
bzb3
The alternative, the led, is not that good. Even if it's 100% hardware
controlled, just a brief flash is enough to take a picture of you.

~~~
axoltl
You should try this on a recent (last 4-5 years or so) Macbook! There is a
hardware timer that forces the LED on for at least 3 seconds even if the
camera only grabs a single frame.

~~~
bzb3
I meant that by the time you notice the led, if you do, the picture was
already taken and probably sent over the wire.

------
sahoo
You don't put a cover on your cellphone camera, why do on the laptop. I take
the cellphone to the shower or the loo, laptop never.

------
j45
If you have access to Gaffer tape it's up to the task of covering when you
need, and electrical tape cut down will do in a pinch.

------
knolax
If the display is so fragile that a little piece of tape or plastic can harm
it, then maybe they should rethink their product design.

------
radicalbyte
This is just an engineering issue. Build a camera cover which acts as a latch
when you close your laptop. Problem solved.

------
anotherNae
So much easier to do a `modprobe -r uvcvideo` on a Linux machine to completely
disable the camera when not required

------
tandav
[https://youtu.be/Zof-TH8hZ20](https://youtu.be/Zof-TH8hZ20)

------
Ice_cream_suit
The NSA is reputed to have malware that can activate certain laptop cameras,
while keeping the indicator light off.

------
jackgavigan
Use a sticky piece of Post-It note instead.

------
winrid
I have MacBooks with big dents in them. I'm pretty sure a piece of tape isn't
going to break my MacBook.

------
mhammerc
I can relate, I broke my MBP16 screen because of a camera cover. Apple
repaired my mac for free without a hitch.

------
hilyen
Unless there is a physical disconnect from mic or camera, assume its insecure.
This goes with all electronics.

------
abbadadda
> Designed to protect your privacy, Mac notebooks have a camera indicator
> light to let you know when the camera is on.

LOL

------
quotha
Don't make all MacBook's with a camera that a lot of your customers want to
cover up all the time.

------
werstardust
Apple doesn't get it. The reason for a camera cover is to prevent snooping
EVEN WHEN the camera is on.

------
nojito
Funny how people are so worried about the webcam...and yet they don't realize
that there is a microphone easily available.

Apple restricts access to the mic via the T2 chip

[https://www.apple.com/euro/macbook-
pro-13/docs/a/Apple_T2_Se...](https://www.apple.com/euro/macbook-
pro-13/docs/a/Apple_T2_Security_Chip_Overview.pdf)

------
0xDEEPFAC
Well, being in the security field I would want to know if that light is
software or hardware controlled.

~~~
awake
The light is hardware controlled. The camera can only get power when the light
is on.

~~~
slenk
Now. It definitely wasn't always

~~~
valuearb
Right, only the last ten years models.

------
ApolloRising
Is there actually a non adhesive camera cover that is .1 mm in thickness?
Smallest I can see is .55 mm.

------
needle0
The perfect opportunity for a hardware entrepreneur to start selling 0.1mm
ultrathin camera covers.

------
emsign
If a piece of tape acts like a bevel and cracks the display, use a sharpie
instead. Problem solved.

------
libra1
I've been using a cover on my 2013 Macbook Pro for almost three years now. No
issues so far.

------
shmerl
If they cared about protecting privacy, they could add a physical shutter.
Nothing hard about it.

------
cpursley
This is exactly what destroyed my 2020 Pro.

Gowing forward its a ThinkPad with Linux.

For serious work I need a serious machine.

------
aritraghosh007
So Apple finally wakes up and tells us that camera covers ruin displays, why
now really?

------
kirykl
A simple bandaid placed over the camera works well and is thin enough to not
interfere

------
anonytrary
Electrical tape with a flap so you can move it back and forth works extremely
well.

------
hansdieter1337
Why doesn’t Apple sell mechanical camera covers for a tremendous amount of
money!

------
ProAm
Good ol Apple always telling you how to use your hardware that you paid for.

------
thisisbrians
I'd love to just have a physical kill switch for the camera/mic.

------
jeffrallen
Seriously Apple, just stop blaming your users. Camera covers are a totally
reasonable response to the threats we all face. If your precious computers
can't have them installed, build one in.

I am a longtime Apple hardware user, but it's just getting so hard to keep
using them...

~~~
callmeal
>Seriously Apple, just stop blaming your users.

C'mon you know you should not be holding cellphones in that way...

------
meddlepal
I put a piece of scotch tape and a thin piece of paper of it regardless.

------
scoot_718
I just remove the camera entirely. Why do laptops come with them again?

------
ericls
To know or to trust? I would always choose to know if I can afford.

------
rajacombinator
It’s ok they’re only 720p so you’ll be blurry if someone hacks you.

------
freakynit
I'd rather take the risk of damaging my display. Thank You.

~~~
system2
Why not electric tape?

~~~
teruakohatu
Not the OP but electrical tape is a lot thicker than 0.1mm. Any branded
electrical tape ranges from 0.15mm to 0.25mm or more for speciality tapes.

------
f0ok
Some IBM ThinkPads have physical cover for camera. I wonder why.

------
deusofnull
protip. small piece of scotch tape and a small piece of paper. when you need
camera, just fold the paper open. when it gets worn out, new paper and scotch
tape.

------
mekkkkkk
Simple solution for those who are security minded: physically break the built
in mic and camera through some precision hammer and needle work, and connect
peripherals when you need em. I'm half serious.

------
Venkatesh10
Just sticking a tape over the camera works really well

------
HeavyStorm
Been saying that to my girlfriend for a while.

------
coronadisaster
I use electrical tape on mine (not a macbook).

------
Groxx
Vinyl static-cling stickers work pretty well.

------
darth_avocado
Has anyone here not heard of duct tape?

------
rudolph9
Why don’t iPhones have a camera light?

------
Scarbutt
There's still the audio problem.

------
modzu
oh i get it, watching for a light to see if the camera is on is equivalent to
covering the camera

------
birdyrooster
A piece of tape will work just fine

------
ajuc
Why would you ever use an apple computer with all their hardware problems,
high prices and anticompetitive practices?

I never understood that.

------
dredmorbius
You're Holding It Wrong 2.0

------
polyterative
What if a bad actor activates the cam for less than 10ms at a time or less
time that the LED takes to kick on

------
maallooc
Amazing how this post and privacy in general attracts schizos like light in
the night attracting moths.

------
throw7
Surprised Apple didn't announce it's selling a $500 camera cover for your
MacBook.

------
novia
low tech solution: use a post-it note as a camera cover.

------
1024core
That's why I have placed a very thin sticker on the camera.

Apple can kiss my ass.

------
touchpadder
Nice try, Apple

------
jlj
Just use tape?

------
ConcernedCoder
lol... nice try apple... nice try...

------
SMAAART
Nice try FBI

------
aloukissas
The easiest solution: opaque scotch tape

------
theasteve
BS

------
didibus
Apple Support: Wait until the light turn green, and then put a tape cover on
your camera. ️

~~~
coldtea
Or you know, if you never see a green light, you never had any problem.

How about that? Tin foil much?

~~~
airstrike
Unless the LED somehow gets disabled, stops working, or something like it.

It's not like the tape is ineffective, so why does Apple care if people use
it?

~~~
hpen
Apple hardwired the LED to the camera. It can't be disabled.

~~~
shbooms
Hardwired or not, it doesn't mean the LED can't be disabled by malware:

[https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569](https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569)

~~~
simonh
The “versions of MacBook laptops and iMac desktops” they are referring to are
the ones from more that 8 years ago that didn’t have the hard wired LED.
Nowadays there is literally a wire from the sensor to the LED. If the sensor
is on, the LED is on. It’s got nothing to do with firmware.

~~~
geoelectric
What happens to the connection if the LED burns out? Is the LED lifetime
sensitive to state change such that you could flicker it via rapid camera
toggling to burn duty cycle overnight?

If someone had access briefly to your laptop at a coffee shop, could they
cover the LED with black opaque cellophane?

This sort of attack is pretty specific, so you figure it’s only done by people
who want something from you in particular. These sorts of physical prep steps
are what I’d be looking at if someone were relying on the light.
Hypothetically, I’d attack the light first then take advantage of the false
assurance.

Missing or open cover is a little harder to miss.

~~~
raverbashing
LEDs don't burn out in regular usage conditions

------
12xo
Electrical tape...

------
rvense
Meanwhile, my new Thinkpad has a camera cover built in...

------
davesque
It's a bit surprising to me that this is trending so much. Apple has been
making functionality compromises for years at the expense of hackers and power
users of all kinds. Is it really so shocking that MacBooks aren't compatible
with camera covers?

~~~
dschuetz
No, it's shocking that Apple doesn't seem to understand that their assurances
do not even remotely touch what users of physical cover have in mind. A LED
showing that the webcam is active means that it's too late. It doesn't matter
what app is using the webcam, with permissions or not. The users apparently
want to prevent the webcam to make _any_ clear pictures. Apple just doesn't
seem to get it. Instead Apple say, it's impossible for apps to turn the webcam
on without permission. Ever heard of "trustworthy" apps being compromised? I
have.

Apple compromises at the wrong issues. The issue is trending because of that.

~~~
davesque
Right and I don't disagree with any of what you said. I'm just asking, why is
this surprising to anyone? Why are people suddenly acting like they care when
this has been open and obvious for a long time?

------
kalium-xyz
Beyond a certain point Apple computers became a status symbol and now they
seem to be able to get the users to cater to them instead of the other way
around.

~~~
teekert
It's just a warning. You can ignore it, you may damage your display. Nothing
more, nothing less.

~~~
ziddoap
Which is sort of the definition of having your customers cater to you instead
of you catering to your customers.

~~~
teekert
So you're catering to Siemens when you refrain from putting your dog in the
microwave?

~~~
ziddoap
What a ridiculously hyperbolic reply.

But no, this analogy does not follow, because your microwave will still work
after you put your dog in there -- and I have not seen guidance from Siemens
telling me that microwaving my dog voids my microwaves warranty.

~~~
teekert
Replace dog by CDs, you will break your microwave. The macbook just wasn't
designed to puy something over the cam. I don't get all the excitement.

------
Angeo34
After reading this help article by Apple I will sell all my Apple devices and
never buy anything again from them.

This post by Apple is confirmation to me that they were spying though the
camera. In recent years I have seen more and more people do this with nearly
every single Mac owner I know doing this (and that's a lot of people). I don't
think it's Apple conducting the espionage but rather LEAs of totalitarian
undemocratic country (US, China) performing economical espionage.

It makes sense that Germany is the country that is by far most affected by
industrial and economical espionage. And it makes sense that nearly all of the
spying is conducted by the US and Chins whether it be industrial economical
scientifical or political.

~~~
valuearb
Since Mac camera indicator lights are hard wired to camera power supply, your
theory is impossible.

