
The weaker sex - prostoalex
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21652323-blue-collar-men-rich-countries-are-trouble-they-must-learn-adapt-weaker-sex?spc=scode&spv=xm&ah=9d7f7ab945510a56fa6d37c30b6f1709
======
DanBC
I'm glad this article mentions male suicide. Rates are higher for men and this
isn't completely explained by the fact that men tend to use more lethal
methods.

The article mentions that men with poor education in rich nations are
particularly struggling. This is supported by a bit of data we have: builders
are becoming an industry with a higher than average risk of suicide. Other
professions tend to have access to means and methods, or detailed knowledge,
neither of which applies to builders.

I'm aware of two great campaigns that tackle male suicide.

One is Australian: soften the fck up (they don't censor the word on their
website): [http://softenthefckup.com.au/](http://softenthefckup.com.au/)

Campaign Against Living Miserably:
[https://www.thecalmzone.net/](https://www.thecalmzone.net/)

I am always interested in hearing about other campaigns from anywhere.

------
nascentmind
I don't understand why there is such a disdain for blue collar jobs. Isn't it
honest living? The good are tangible and benefits the society.

 _Boys in the developed world are 50% more likely to flunk basic maths,
reading and science entirely._

Then why is the media crying out that STEM fields are dominated by men and
more women should be encouraged?

The problem in the US is that they cry that manufacturing jobs are going away.
Why don't they attract some? Manufacturing complements with engineering. They
develop society. The only reason that education and healthcare where
supposedly most of the women are present as per the article is still present
in the US is because it has not been outsourced. It has nothing to do with
high skills.

------
Mz
I recently read "Working in the Shadows: A year of doing the work (most)
Americans won't do." [http://www.amazon.com/Working-Shadows-Year-Doing-
Americans/d...](http://www.amazon.com/Working-Shadows-Year-Doing-
Americans/dp/1568586388/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1433104880&sr=8-1&keywords=working+in+the+shadows)

It makes some excellent points about how pathetically underpaid some jobs are
and how crucial they are to the functioning of society. People (mostly men)
who do back-breaking labor, like harvest food from the fields, are critical to
the food supply, yet it is often paid less than minimum wage. My dad grew up
on a farm and was a soldier for more than 2 1/2 decades. I always find it
pretty galling when folks who make good money are basically snobby assholes
about the value of blue collar work.

We really need to do something about making sure that critical jobs get paid a
living wage -- not out of compassion or charity but out of enlightened self-
interest. That's the only way the spoiled educated people who made "good"
career choices will get to keep sitting on their asses at a computer and still
eat. Sigh.

There are some things very wrong with this world. Not in a "gosh, we are all
assholes" sort of way but in a "gosh, we are all idiots -- what happens if we
can't fill these blue collar jobs and the grocery store shelves sit empty?"
sort of way.

------
ZeroGravitas
There appears to be some concerted effort to leave unhinged comments on any
popular article that might be construed as feminist.

I wonder how they'd justify these rants? Do they actually think they're
convincing people? Is this related to conspiracy theories in some way?

This article would appear to be what the commenters would want, greater
support for disadvantaged men and boys, but it seems to have wound them up
even more.

~~~
RodericDay
When I was still a fairly generic STEM kid, skeptical of "feminism" and a bit
tempted to oppose it via "egalitarianism" or something like that, I got into
an argument over the internet where my opposite said this:

 _" Mainstream, sex-positive feminism is about equality and is concerned with
the rights of men whenever they're in question. I'm a total feminist who
believes that the significance of male rape is hugely devalued by society,
that family court relies on outdated standards, and a few other 'MRA'
bulletpoints. I find nothing but agreement when I pursue these ideas in a
public, academic, or otherwise serious sphere. The Men's Rights movement,
however, is not a legitimate offshoot of a cruel and uncaring feminism. It's a
reactionary, hostile internet culture that inevitably finds itself tied up in
aggressive takedowns of feminism, responsible for fomenting a lot of denial of
its legitimacy through a cherry-picked view of fringe perspectives, poorly
considered, half-scientific 'biotruths' and a thin veneer of concern for the
rights of men.

Feminism is not called feminism because it hates men. It's called feminism
because it comes from societies with a history of gross, outrageous repression
of women. As we move closer to equality, it becomes natural that men should
involve themselves in the movement and ensure that it considers their rights
as well. But feminism does that. MRA denies that only as a stepladder to get
into a denial of the legitimacy of the female accomplishments of feminism.
That's what it is at its core."_

I was very impressed. I conceded, and it's stuck with me to this day.

~~~
thsealienbstrds
Regardless of club affiliation, generally speaking it makes no sense to have
women stand up for men's rights. Men need to stand up for men's rights because
then at least you can assume authenticity based on shared self-interest. In
that respect, even MRA is, for men, an improvement on feminism.

~~~
Mz
I'm female. I prefer to stand for human rights. Last I checked, men are still
human.

FWIW, I don't generally self-identify as a _feminist,_ though I get accused of
being one quite a lot.

I think anyone who claims to want a better world and is vindictively hoping
that some class of people with more "privilege" gets their come-uppance is
doing it wrong.

~~~
thsealienbstrds
Cool, but your last sentence goes too far. There is politics to worry about.
Hasn't feminism proven that a non-partisan stance (egalitarianism) is less
effective politically than a partisan one? I can accuse you of the same
'vindictiveness' that feminists face when men say that feminism is wrong
because it's all about women. It's not wrong, it's politics.

~~~
malandrew
I thought her last sentence was actually spot on. When people argue for
egalitarianism, I actively support them. When people argue using the approach
she condemned, I vehemently oppose such people because it's toxic, drives
people apart (as does any type of identity politics) and breeds resentment.

------
s_kilk
This may mark me out as an asshole, but I don't have very much sympathy.

Back when I was about 15 and still in school, a bunch of our classmates
dropped out to go working in construction jobs after completing the Junior
Certificate
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_Certificate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_Certificate)).
At the time Ireland was enjoying a boom in construction, so there was decent
money to be made for anyone willing to stop their education and haul bricks
around a field all day.

To my friends and I this was a transparently idiotic strategy, grasping at an
easy short-term gain which no-one believed would last more than a few years.
But of course we were made out to be the real chumps for staying in school.

Fast forward to now and every one of the dropouts is un-employed, having
enjoyed a few short years of decent wages and then witnessed their livelihoods
disappear into an economic black hole around 2008.

~~~
Apocryphon
What happens when the tech bubble bursts?

Yes, certainly we live in the information age, and there will always be a need
for tech workers, but the demand will fall with the economy. So isn't there an
element to short-term gain for people who went into tech simply because of the
past decade?

~~~
s_kilk
What happens when the medicine bubble bursts? Or the engineering bubble? We
could say this about any profession, that the good times may end some day.
That doesn't make the decision of those young men any less short-sighted.

They had every chance at _not_ being under-educated labourers, but they chose
explicitly to take that path, even when most around them advised that the
construction bubble was in serious danger of collapse in the near future.

Maybe I too will be destitute some day, but that's a different story.

------
_random_
It would be nice if Economist could post an article discussing the supply of
_" marriageable women"_ (using their words).

Also, plenty of old failing _" you can have it all"_ narrative like:

 _" Women have learned that they can be surgeons and physicists without losing
their femininity."_

vs

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3078210/Number-
wom...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3078210/Number-women-
freezing-eggs-soars-400-one-year-careers-prioritised-motherhood.html)

 _In much of the world they still enjoy social and legal privileges simply
because they have a Y chromosome._

vs

[http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-logic-behind-France-
banning...](http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-logic-behind-France-banning-
paternity-tests)

But there were some good conclusions: _" More generally, schools need to
become more boy-friendly..."_.

