
Ask HN: Immigrate from EU to US? - eu_moron
How do I immigrate from EU to US ? How difficult is it with changes in US immigration policy ? My general opinion has been that the EU barring Sweden is mostly a blip when it comes to innovation in software. I snapped after today&#x27;s copyright law. So how do I immigrate ? I dont care if Trump is president, the American economy and innovation seems to be doing just fine. Any suggestions on how to get out of this hot mess ?
======
foobarbazetc
I’ve done this. It was the worst decision I’ve ever made. Looking to get out
ASAP.

Turns out there’s more to life than tech, and you can tech anywhere.

~~~
eu_moron
I see. Could you elaborate ?

~~~
pjmlp
60h is common standard in US, if you are just doing 40h you are being lazy.

Most companies offer 1 week vacation.

Maternity leave is a foreign word to many companies.

Some have a no limit vacation, but the work culture is such that even less
people actually take vacations.

Then you get to be tied up to the company regarding healthcare.

Unions in IT, which exist is a couple of European countries, are seen like
persona non grata.

There are lots of wonderful things in US, work conditions in tech not
necessarily.

~~~
hoggejin
The amount of anti-American FUD on HN lately is getting absurd.

60h isn't just not common, it's basically non-existent. In my 15 year career
across multiple companies in multiple cities and states the average I've
witnessed is 35-42 hours a week. If you subtract lunch, coffee breaks, surfing
the web it's probably around 25-30 hours of work a week.

Vacation time typically starts at 2 weeks for entry-level workers(plus another
2 weeks of sick/personal time plus another 10-15 holidays) and increases to
4-5 weeks (or 'unlimited') for people with more than a few years experience.

The average software engineer will pay a trivial percent of their salary in
health insurance premiums.

If you're stocking shelves or working a cash register or cleaning toilets
you're probably better off in the EU than in the US. But if you're a software
developer, your quality of life is obviously going to be far higher in the US.

~~~
digianarchist
Disagree on vacation. Just scan Stackoverflow jobs. Most places cap out at 4
weeks and that's after 10 years.

In a lot of the EU you start with 4/5 weeks rising to 6-8.

Also for some bizarre reason Canada has chosen to replicate America's awful
vacation policies. Only difference is there is a min of 2 weeks. US has no
min.

------
matthewmacleod
To be blunt, I don't think you'll find what you're looking for without
thinking a bit more about why you feel this way.

What's the problem with your current situation? Is it that your salary is too
low? Lack of interesting opportunities? Small development community?

The US tech industry is interesting for a number of reasons, but it's not
without it's problems. There are way more companies, higher salaries and more
innovation generally. But working conditions can be worse, even at large
employers. Housing can be expensive. Healthcare!

There are lots of places in EU countries that are doing interesting things in
tech. They don't have quite the same glitz and glamour of FAANG, but you might
find something that makes you happy closer to home.

(Disclaimer: I personally _am_ planning to move to the US, but only because my
fiancé is a citizen and his family is there. But even having that easy path
through immigration does not make the conclusion at all obvious.)

------
tehlike
\- Easier path is to applying for a job in EU for Google/Facebook/whathaveyou,
and then transferring on L1. Google has offices in zurich, london, frankfurt,
dublin, etc.

\- If you have phd in a related field, you might even apply for immigration
right away (don't quote me on that).

\- Diversity greencard is coming up, you might want to try your chances (but
it's a low one).

~~~
eu_moron
Sadly I dont have a phd. I guess I'll take option 1. Thanks !

~~~
pkaye
If you have a strong skill set, just send resumes out to medium/large tech
companies in the US. If it clicks, they might phone interview and possibly
bring you in for an interview. Often times companies are desperate for good
candidates that they will sponsor the paperwork for a H1B visa. My previous
employer did this for two candidates and they turned out very good. Make sure
the employer pays for all expenses for the legal stuff. They should also agree
to moving expenses.

------
atmosx
Granted that you are not a refugee, what about staying where you are and
putting up a fight?

Vote a party who supports freedom of speech and spread the word about why this
is important in your country/constituency and so forth?

If this law enhance political and corporate power, I assure you that most
likely will be adopted elsewhere in some form or another.

~~~
eu_moron
Its not the politicians I am worried about. Sadly its the people. No one here
protested. With Mozilla's campaigning nothing happened. To stop the law
previously Wikipedia had to shutdown. Seems folks here dont really care.

~~~
ionised
Is moving to Trumpland really the solution?

------
jsoc815
Hi, Can you elaborate on your desire to leave the EU(/EZ) _altogether_?

From the data I've seen, an increasing number of Americans are actually
leaving the U.S and/or giving up citizenship. The reasons seem to range from
tax policy to cost of living/quality of living to 'other'.

In aggregate, the economy may _look_ good, but for many individuals things are
actually pretty tough. Even those who aren't all that affected by such
problems (think journalist writing uber-positive stories about America's
"robust economy", politicians, banking officials, etc.,) will acknowledge this
albeit mostly in private settings.

Anyway, rather than leave, _wouldn 't it just be easier to employ some sort of
strategic corporate structuring?_

~~~
adventured
Most of your post focuses on attacking the US, rather than actually answering
the parent's question. I understand why you and others in this thread are
choosing to do that, however it's still inappropriate.

> From the data I've seen, an increasing number of Americans are actually
> leaving the U.S and/or giving up citizenship.

2017: "Renunciations [of citizenship] for the year fell 5.1 percent, to 5,133"

So far in 2018, that is down another 8% to 10% on an annualized basis.

While the number has climbed over the years, out of ~245 million adults, a
mere 5,133 renounced their citizenship last year. A rate near one in 50,000.
In a city the size of San Francisco, 17 people will renounce their citizenship
in a given year. A trivial figure.

> In aggregate, the economy may look good, but for many individuals things are
> actually pretty tough.

> will acknowledge this albeit mostly in private settings.

That's an entirely empty claim. You didn't actually say anything or provide
figures. The US economy is in fact every bit as robust as it appears to be.
Manufacturing is booming like it hasn't in decades, with persistent employment
gains that haven't been seen in 25 years. Wage growth is at a decade high and
heading higher.

\- The median personal and household incomes are both at new all-time highs on
an inflation adjusted basis.

\- US household balance sheets are in great shape. Debt service payments as a
share of disposable income remain near 40 year lows. The household debt to
income ratio is back to pre housing bubble levels, roughly 2003 levels. US
households considerably deleveraged, while most other wealthy developed
nations have done the exact opposite.

\- The U6 unemployment rate is below where it was in 1999 (and far lower than
eg 1997), and nearly matches the lowest figure put in during that economic
boom. It's still heading lower yet.

\- Business investment is booming. The percentage of businesses planning to
invest into expansion is scoring at multi-decade highs. S&P 500 capex spending
has also jumped dramatically.

\- Productivity grew at a solid 2.9% in the second quarter. The fastest rate
in three years. You need good productivity figures to sustain wage expansion.

\- Consumer confidence is near 20 year highs. It was last this high during the
peak of the late 1990s boom.

\- Small business confidence is at multi-decade highs.

\- Jobless claims are near 50 year lows. You have to go back to 1969 to see
these absolute jobless claims figures - the US population was 1/3 smaller
then.

\- The number of people without health insurance is at record lows.
Homelessness is at/near record lows. The poverty rate is at a low level only
reached during two brief periods in the last 60 years.

\- The gap between the number of jobs available vs the number of people
actively seeking a job is at a positive multi-decade high and increasing.

\- GDP growth will clock in over 3% in 2018 for the first time (on an annual
basis) since 2005.

\- Corporate profits for all business sizes are at all-time highs.

\- The stock market is at all-time highs.

\- Household wealth is at an all-time record high. 100% higher than 2004, at
$101 trillion. The US median household net wealth figure, despite taking a hit
in the great recession, is still higher than in either Sweden or Germany.

\- The best forecasters, people like Ray Dalio (whose firm spotted the great
recession far earlier than most), see several more years of expansion left in
the tank yet.

~~~
jsoc815
Dear _adventured_ : I believe I _asked_ the parent a pair of _clarifying
questions_.

I'm not sure why _you_ view mentioning that there are those who also decide to
leave the parent's (possible) target destination as "attacking the US," but
okay(?)

Re: and 'my' "empty claim" and your statistical screed-- 1) I noticed you
excised my source 'references', which is fine, I guess;

2; your list doesn't actually address the crux of the claim;

3) I think it helpful to think about how the stats are derived and what they
_actually measure_ ;

4) here's a recent article from "the failing New York Times" on some of those
stats you provided [1];

5) and another on the "recovery"[2], most of the commenters don't appear to
share your sanguineness, but they're probably Russian bots or something;

6) I remind you that the stock market is neither _the economy_ nor directly
_relevant to much of the US population_ ;

7) you're probably right about GDP growth [ _FTR, I was one of few who argued,
to seasoned economists, that Trump 's targets were easily doable when they
steadfastly argued otherwise], but I refer you back to article [1];

8) having already addressed your "renunciation" data in an unrelated HN post,
I won't do it again; finally,

9) your econ stats are, pretty much, about the _aggregate _, which in my
initial post, I acknowledged "look good";

10) even if everything that you've stated is absolutely correct, it doesn't
explain, _for me _, why the OP wants to take such a drastic step,_ which was
what my post was actually about*.

All the best...

[1]
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/opinion/columnists/great-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/opinion/columnists/great-
recession-economy-gdp.html)

[2] [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/12/business/middle-class-
fin...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/12/business/middle-class-financial-
crisis.html)

------
random_kris
American dream is long dead. Paradise is here in Europe :)

------
morpheuskafka
Each year approximately 140,000 visa are made available for immigrant seeking
employees. These E visas are divided into four classes. The H1B visas that are
common in tech are non-immigrant visas. You cannot use them to resettle in the
US. For immigrant employees, workers must first get DOL approval after an
"extensive and unsuccessful" attempt to recruit domestically--this is more
rigorous than what employers have to do to bring in an H1B visiting worker.

Best case scenario, you qualify as an E1: that requires that you have
"extensive documentation showing sustained national or international acclaim
and recognition in their fields of expertise," in which case no job offer is
needed, OR you are an "outstanding professor or researcher" w/ intl.
recognition, OR you are a "multinational manager or exec" with at least one
year employment at an overseas branch of a US company.

Second best is E2, for which you must have a graduate degree or a bachelor's
and 5+ years professional experience OR have exceptional ability ("having a
degree of expertise significantly above that ordinarily encountered in the
sciences, arts, or business"). This requires a job offer cleared by DOL, or
you can apply for a National Interest Waiver which allows you to enter without
a job lined up.

If you don't have a graduate degree of 5+ yrs experience, you are relegated to
the E3 category. The E4 category is not applicable to tech jobs. The E5
category is an option if you have US$ 1mil (or half that in certain depressed
areas) to invest and you are willing to commit to creating 10+ jobs for US
persons in 2 years.

So in most cases, your employer must attempt to find domestic candidates, not
be successful, file ETA 9089 with the DOL to get a Permanent Labor
Certification, and then file I-140 with USCIS. If approved, you must continue
the process with the National Visa Center. Your immediate family can come with
you. You must bring various documents and medical certifications to your US
Embassy for an interview. Then, you would be issued an E class immigrant visa
which you take to the US border and request admission to the country. After
paying fees, you will receive an SSN card and your I-551 green card, making
you a "lawful permanent resident" of the US.

------
newusertoday
My suggestion is to not immigrate permanently i.e. going for green
card/citizenship. Be in US, enjoy higher salaries, network with like minded
individuals and than come back to EU and get the best of both the worlds.

------
cylinder
Get a job as a manager at a multinational with ops in the US and EU. After a
year or more get transferred to the US on an L1A then soon after apply for a
green card.

------
fourmii
Look, I think the grass is always greener on the other side. Whether you think
you can ignore Trump or not, the fact is immigration into the US is hard. It
was hard before and it's probably harder now given the current
administration's views on migrants.

I moved to the US back in the 2000's and it took me years, I finally was lucky
enough to find a contact at a university to sponsor a H1B. That now seems
virtually impossible to get unless you work for one of those giant Indian IT
companies.

Also, you might be increasingly frustrated with the state of the EU, but it
ain't all roses in the US. I for one, value highly the social safety nets
other countries provide. Without being incendiary, things like getting
healthcare in the US isn't so straightforward.

We get that the US is still streaks ahead when it comes to innovation and
capitalism. But there's so many other considerations important to gauging
one's quality of life.

In the end, is living in the EU really a hot mess? What about a different part
of the EU?

~~~
eu_moron
Thats the thing. I dont think I want to put years of my life just to immigrate
to US. Earlier it was less difficult ( surely not easy ). But nothing of
interest happens here. Everybody just wants to preserve the old (old
businesses, old ways of thiking) and people are more keen on justifying why
what they do is good (and better than US ). For example in Germany people are
peoud of their paperwork.

~~~
Mave83
I don't think this is correct. I'm a serial entrepreneur and innovation is
something that Germany does on a regular day to day basis.

Why don't you just create your own company in a field you like? In the EU it's
easy to do so and there are hundreds of accelerator programs that help doing
so.

Innovation is nothing US exclusive. For example, just look how many Israel
companies provide innovative products to the US tech companies.

~~~
eu_moron
I think you're right. I didnt consider that.

------
mips_avatar
I had a lovely time interning at a Swedish company in Sweden, but not having
Swedish EU citizenship made the company want to hire me at their US facility.
Maybe we could trade identities?

~~~
eu_moron
I see. At this point I would actually love to hear a few positive stories. Do
elaborate on your experience if you can.

~~~
mips_avatar
I interned at Volvo and it was a very positive experience. Sweden has a very
different work culture. And I learned a lot.

