
Time to End Factory Farming? - hkai
https://quillette.com/2018/10/20/why-its-time-to-end-factory-farming/
======
elbasti
About three months ago I decided to stop purchasing factory-farmed meat. It's
been pretty difficult for a few reasons.

The biggest reason, by far, is access to information. Roughly, I would like to
purchase only meat from animals that lived a "happy" life and had a relatively
short death. Animals that lived outdoors, basically. But there are no credible
labels or certifications for this, which means buying meat at the grocery
store is pretty much impossible.

So I have to buy meat from a farmer. Recently I've been using crowdcow.com,
but even there, the messaging seems to be all around _flavor_ and not
_welfare_. Farmers will tell you what they feed the livestock, not how they
treat them. So the best you can do is research the farm and hope their website
isn't lying.

Another difficulty has been flavor and texture--pasture raised meat tastes
more gamey and is much tougher than "normal" grocery store meat. I've actually
found that I prefer the flavor of "humane" pork and chicken but not beef.

Lastly there's price. It's about 2/3x more expensive. This isn't that big of a
problem, because we simply spend the same amount as a household and just eat
less, substituting for vegetables. It does mean that I buy a lot more of the
"cheaper" cuts, which require more skill in preparation. I haven't yet bought
a pasture-raised ribeye--it's simply too expensive.

As for eating out, it's basically impossible. No restaurant I know where I
live (Chicago) credibly serves only ethically sourced meat, as far as I know.
To be honest I still eat "normal" meat when I eat out, although I have reduced
my consumption somewhat. There are, unfortunately, some products of dubious
ethical provenance that simply have no substitute, like fine cheeses and cured
meats.

It seems to me like a huge opportunity. I would gladly pay 2/3 times for meat
if I knew it was raised more ethically. In fact, that's what I think meat
_should_ cost (and _all_ meat be ethically raised).

~~~
hkai
How would you respond to the author of the article who dismisses free-range
meat as similar to being a good slaveowner or killing people painlessly in a
genocide?

~~~
UncleEntity
As a false equivalence fallacy...

------
hnryjmes
A lot of this article is based on Jacy's new book, which I reviewed and
summarized earlier this year. Well worth checking out to dive deeper into some
of these issues. Link here: [https://medium.com/@hnryjmes/61-key-insights-and-
thoughts-af...](https://medium.com/@hnryjmes/61-key-insights-and-thoughts-
after-reading-jacy-reeses-new-book-the-end-of-animal-farming-3e4a01e9ce49)

“1. The scale of animal suffering is in the hundreds of billions killed _every
year_. Most of that is unnecessary, which further adds to the tragedy.
However, horror on this sort of scale just doesn’t motivate some people. For
them, we need to talk about other things — or the message simply won’t stick.”

------
snarfy
My sister tried to get a job at a factory farm. She found there weren't many
openings as they primarily employ prisoners through work programs. They employ
prisoners because nobody wants those jobs. Even the prisoners would chose a
different work program given the option.

~~~
panic
A couple months ago there was a nationwide prisoner strike in the US against
this practice: [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/20/prison-
labor...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/20/prison-labor-
protest-america-jailhouse-lawyers-speak)

------
quadcore
I dont like those extensive animal farming anyway but, _cattles_ are
responsible for 25% of greenhouse gas emission. Those factory farms are
included is it? We _must_ stop. Let's have some regulations; it's not so bad
after all, it's just a matter of changing eating habits.

~~~
rabidrat
and eating habits are only the hardest habits for a culture to change, after
all..

------
iN7h33nD
This video by Kurzgesagt has a very good explanation as well

[https://youtu.be/NxvQPzrg2Wg](https://youtu.be/NxvQPzrg2Wg)

------
jonotime
Great article. I agree that the meat industry thrives on the fact that most
people see animals at assets/property. They dont treat them as entities who
are entitled to live their life, like we do with other humans. The analogy to
slavery is interesting and I have no doubt in generations from now we will
look back on these days as savage and uncivilized. This is essentially a
cultural problem with a ton of history behind it which is why meat consumers
tend to be sensitive about to topic.

But science is on our side here (I'm talking to you, intelligent, rational HN
readers). Technology can solve the problems with efficiency and taste by
making alternatives accessible and cheaper. And then you have the
scientist/public figures in this article. These are the folks who should be
bringing awareness to the masses. I think we need to slowly legislate away
this cruelty and destruction of the environment. Much like the gay rights
bills and tobacco legislation that has come and gone over the years. We need
to take baby steps to make animal production impossibly difficult.

------
thefounder
People don't care about people that much...saying that it's time to stop
factory farming sounds like saying it's time to stop using materials from
conflict zones or imported from non-democratic countries

------
henryhenryhenry
It’s the convenience factor. That’s it. Once plant-based options are more
convenient than meat, game over. Most people lack the discipline to sustain a
vegan lifestyle, even in 2018.

~~~
m000
It's also indoctrination. We've been indoctrinated to think of meat as a
staple food. Meat was never a staple food before factory farming came along.
Fortunately, it seems that humanity's honeymoon with the farming industry is
coming to its end.

~~~
wool_gather
> indoctrinated to think of meat as a staple food

Generally agree, although I think this is slightly the wrong way 'round. Meat
was definitely a luxury, as recently as a century ago. (Speaking of the U.S.
here.) Then we had an explosion of a (relatively) wealthy middle-class, who
could afford lots of things that were formerly luxuries. And those things
became expected, they became part of the culture, and they became commodified.
I don't think there's any nefarious conspiracy, it's classic tragedy of the
commons: everybody individually wants steak for dinner; the social price
doesn't become clear until much later.

------
louumeat
Ok, here's a view I genuinely have and want to discuss. But it's quite far
from the general consensus and is a bit radical (hence using a throwaway
account) -

Yes, using animals in this was in unethical and yes animals have emotions. But
I love meat so much I just can't seem to care. I mean I feel evolution made us
humans evolve into beings that _can_ take advantage of all the tools and so
why shouldn't we. Yes, this means I am ignoring the fact that the animals are
being tortured. Putting it that way sounds bad but too bad, we step on ants
every day as well. It's just where nature has gotten us.

In fact, if you mention the greenhouse effect and all, I think we're
destroying our own habitat. In a few hundred years, might make humans extinct.
But that's about it. The "Planet" is not being destroyed. It's us who are in
danger. We brought it on us, we'll have to face it.

That was my rant and trust me, if you meet me you won't think I have such
harsh views. But I wonder if anyone else thinks the same way or would like to
discuss this.

~~~
mping
You sound like you are playing your own advocate. People can find lots of ways
to justify themselves. In the end, you know it brings suffering - you either
go with it or not. The rest is just mental blabber.

The same reason people choose not to eat meat is the same reason some people
choose not to rob someone or to treat someone kindly, etc - they see it as a
good thing and they do it. And if I am aware and can avoid stepping on ants I
will do it.

------
Noos
This article is wishful thinking, with no real evidence of what the author is
saying is viable or desired by many people. I'm not sure why it is here, since
it is pure ideology with no real scientific backing.

~~~
anonuser123456
The brain structures present in mammals and humans that process suffering are
very similar. That is basic neuroscience.

So maybe it's ok to make animals suffer, but at least have consistent ethics
and agree it's ok to make people suffer.

~~~
balt_s
Conspecifics are more important than other species.

~~~
anonuser123456
Why does speciation define the border of the phenomenalogical experience of
suffering?

------
nojvek
I’m a vegetarian but my dog eats kibble made from Chicken. This has always
made me feel like a hypocrite. “I have to kill animals to keep my pet alive?”

Anyone have any good recommendations for approved non-dead-animals dog food?

------
amachefe
To end factory farming, start eating goats

~~~
flippyhead
But wouldn't this, eventually, just lead to the factory farming of goats?

~~~
deialtrous
Yes. People think you can't do factory farming of goats because current goat
breeds do not tolerate confinement and simply get sick and die. This used to
be true of hog breeds as well, but people purpose bred for animals that can
withstand confinement. That's one of the primary reasons modern pork has no
flavor, we stopped breeding animals that taste good and just worried about
breeding ones that survive the industrial process. The same would inevitably
happen with goats.

~~~
wool_gather
> we stopped breeding animals that taste good and just worried about breeding
> ones that survive the industrial process.

Exactly, and further proof of your point is that the exact same process has
happened to vegetables: they're bred to be transportable and sale-able for a
long period of time; not to be excellent. Tomatoes are the perfect example.
Most tomatoes that you can buy from a grocery store are really not worth
eating. Compare them to a actually ripe summer tomato from a neighbor's
garden, and they may as well be different substances.

Commodification turns things mediocre almost by definition.

------
rhythnic
Where do the Christians stand on this issue? If there's one single group that
has the power to calibrate people's moral compass on this issue, is would be
clergymen. As another person said, people just don't care. People are on the
whole an exploitative and unsympathetic species. They'll continue eating
factory farmed meat and buying sweatshop clothing, much more than necessary.
But in the US at least, where 77% of people identify as Christan, if preachers
took issue with these things, they could make an impact on how their
congregation spends money.

A preacher who actually targeted moral atrocities would be seen as radical,
and would most likely lose the church members and money. And so church will
continue to be large ornate buildings with large parking lots filled with
luxury cars where people hear about their salvation, while wearing sweatshop
clothing and then eat barbeque afterwords, instead of a place that actually
makes a difference.

~~~
archagon
In the Orthodox tradition, almost half the year—including nearly every
Wednesday and Friday—is for fasting, which means vegan plus shellfish. It’s
not considered radical at all.

(Incidentally, this is why Ethiopian food is so vegan-friendly!)

------
EugeneOZ
When taste and price of any "safe" kind of meat will be better, this issue
solved. It's the only way.

------
agumonkey
Recently I do feel a global feeling of tiredness. The things we held as
progress don't work, abundance feels void it seems now. Jobs aren't giving you
a lot of money and even if so, it can't bring you much; we're all very high in
material comfort. What we lack is appreciation and sharing.

Maybe people will enjoy farming more, and doing things more because what we
used to avoid to pursue ~higher jobs is now seen as both healthy and joyful
activities that aren't so stupid when compared to the mass of idiotic ~jobs
we're seeing these days.

~~~
specialist
I feels ya.

A few years ago, I got pretty worked up about my state killing an entire wolf
pack, just to protect some cows. So I got involved. I learned a lot.

Ranchers are people too. I really loved these people. It was just one bad
apple, deliberate repeat offender, causing all the problems. Everyone else was
totally onboard towards creating a better future.

Ranching is unsustainable. And they (the families) know it.

Skipping to the end... My predictions:

#1 Laboratory meat will largely eliminate factory farming. It will completely
upend our (Western) agricultural economy. Huge reduction in feed grains,
pesticides, fertilizers, etc. Massive improvement in waste management. It
can't happen soon enough. My uneducated guess is 10-20 year transition. All us
tree huggers should work to expedite.

#2 To continue, ranchers will need to go up market. Artisan, bespoke meat.

#3 We will pay ranchers to restore habitat. This will make up for their loss
of income from selling meat. And hopefully keep families working the land.

"How to fight desertification and reverse climate change"
[https://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_worl...](https://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change)

#4 Trend towards direct micromanagement of animals (wild and domesticated) and
habitat will continue. GPS tags, drones, IoT for soil monitoring & management,
satellite imagery, adapt to weather predictions, etc. Even more so than my
grandfather's day, future farmers and ranchers will be high tech
entrepreneurs, knowledgable in tech, business, accounting / finance.

In conclusion: I know our current situation is bleak. There is a way forward,
out of this mess. Keep the faith.

~~~
RobertoG
"#1 laboratory meat will largely eliminate factory farming. [..] All us tree
huggers should work to expedite."

Any suggestion about how to help here? For instance, is there any organization
where we can send money for pushing for this outcome?

The environmental reasons alone should be enough to invest in this.

~~~
bungula
The Good Food Institute is working on exactly that:

[https://www.gfi.org/donate](https://www.gfi.org/donate)

They are a non-profit that are advocating and researching clean meat and
plant-based alternatives. I recommend this 75 minute interview with it's
director if you want to understand why is it such an important and effective
cause:

[https://80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/bruce-friedrich-
good...](https://80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/bruce-friedrich-good-food-
institute/)

------
latch
How can you be against cruelty to animals and still regularly consume meat?

This question I ask sincerely.

There are other equally ethical considerations: global warming, land use,
energy/water use, etc. I feel that any one of these should give most people
pause.

~~~
projektir
Consuming meat and factory farming are not directly related things. Meat can
just as well be produced by better farming methods or processes like hunting.
Doesn't mean that's how people end up getting their meet, but mostly people
don't generate the chain of logistics they end up using, and it's not directly
related to the product itself.

This chain of thought also doesn't go anywhere, unless you want to end up a
hermit of some sort, because pretty much every logistic chain is contaminated.

> There are other equally ethical considerations: global warming, land use,
> energy/water use, etc. I feel that any one of these should give most people
> pause.

Hmm. I'd say global warming et. al. is not even in the same universe ethics-
wise compared to animal farming.

~~~
latch
Is this a valid argument? You're right, consuming meat doesn't have to be
related to factory farming. But consuming 220 pounds of meat, as far as I
know, does.

~~~
wott
Why? People have been raising or fattening a pig in their yard for ages. One
or two pigs a year, add a couple of chickens on top of that, and here we go.

~~~
rabidrat
For ages there have not been billions of people. Now every year there are
~100m more people on the planet.

------
drenvuk
The author has two articles, one is this one and the other makes a case for
veganism.

I understand that killing animals for their meat strikes some people as
morally wrong but you're not going to change my mind by making me feel bad
about how a cow, pig or chicken is raised and killed. This is not a moral
problem for most people. We don't really care enough. We eat them because they
taste good, are easily available and are satiating. Vegan and vegetarian foods
are usually less so for all three categories.

No matter how many articles or appeals you make trying to instill some amount
of empathy for animals or guilt for their situation it's not going to stop
people from craving a steak. Most people can't control their cravings for a
cookie. This is not a moral problem, this is a taste and option problem.

I'm honestly going to Texas Roadhouse tonight because you made me think about
having a ribeye. Way to go.

~~~
adetrest
I feel that you don't want to change your mind anyway, and are happy to show
us how smart you are by purposefully doing the opposite of what people hope to
get you do after reading the article.

To me, your comment reads as someone saying that reading an article about lung
cancer didn't deter them from smoking and actually reminded them to go and buy
a pack of smokes. Or how an article about global warming reminded them they
had to buy a gas guzzler today. Or reading an article about how cars should
share the road with bicycles and saying it reminds you you didn't drive today
and you're off to doing punishing passes and coal rolling cyclists.

Good for you, people can't tell you what to do and you know exactly what
buttons to push to show how smart you are.

You might not agree with the article, but your reaction is ridiculous.

~~~
drenvuk
You're reading me a bit wrong, though maybe the last sentence was me being an
asshole while also failing to explicitly point out what's wrong with their
approach. You're correct that I don't feel like changing my mind but that's
because their argument is old and I know that I enjoy meat. The objective was
to point out that instead of trying to make meat eaters feel bad they should
just make it easier for us to make better food choices. Food that we don't
have to explicitly search for.

I'm not going to pick a food because it has a label for "vegetarian" or
"vegan". I don't care. I pick what tastes good and is mostly healthy. Many
other people have that line of thought besides me. Those kinds of people won't
be attracted by those two terms and the moral implications behind them alone.
If the food was good enough and marketed enough you wouldn't even need mostly
useless articles like this.

That was what I was trying to point out. Hopefully you understand now.

