
Tests show bootleg marijuana vapes tainted with hydrogen cyanide - Tomte
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/vaping/tests-show-bootleg-marijuana-vapes-tainted-hydrogen-cyanide-n1059356
======
suby
From the article it sounds like this is strictly an issue of it not being
legal and regulated. The pesticides and contamination are present thanks to
the black market.

It's absolute insanity in my view. We have people advocating for prohibition
over safety concerns which is ironically creating the unsafe conditions in the
first place. It's way past time that we legalize it nation wide, provide
strict regulations to prevent pesticides / other contaminants from entering
the market, and educate people on the dangers of buying from an unregulated
black market.

~~~
cypherpunks01
Absolutely. The problem is only going to become much worse now, due to banning
sales of legal/regulated products. Relatedly, Massachusetts governor just
announced a 4 month total ban on ALL vaporizer products (THC, Nicotine,
flavored, unflavored) despite zero Massachusetts vape deaths, so consumers
will now be turning either to cigarettes (which kill 1,300 people per DAY
nationwide) or black market THC/Nicotine vaporizers which are the very likely
causes of the current unknown illnesses and deaths as you mention.

~~~
bsagdiyev
Smoking kills 40k people, per day, in the US? That number seems off. I don't
think there are that many births in a day so we'd be losing a lot of people.

~~~
cypherpunks01
Whoops, misread a stat! Corrected, it's 1,300

~~~
WhompingWindows
You're performing numerator analysis there. You're comparing deaths
irrespective of number of users, never mind their duration/frequency of use.
For smokers, this would be pack-years, which is the number of daily packs
times the number of years. There's the sheer volume of smokers, probably 10x
the number of vapers? Hard to say, I'm not well read on the literature.

In any case, comparing numerators here is not good epidemiology, as smokers
are far more numerous and have used for far longer/heavier use.

------
arzt
Myclobutanil is a fungicide that cannabis growers use to prevent mildew.
Traces of it being found in oil indicate something needs to be done to prevent
its usage at the growth, storage, and transport stage of the supply chain.
This is probably more easily done if Marijiuana is legalized federally and
heavily regulated. Given that would take an act of Congress, I fear that
sweeping vaping regulation will kill the industry, robbing combustible
cigarette users of a much safer alternative to nicotine delivery.

~~~
austinheap
Myclobutanil is illegal for licensed grows and no one with a license would
ever risk it, as it's 1) criminal and 2) would immediately invalidate their
license. Unfortunately the crazy high taxes have created a robust black market
where unlicensed extractors don't care about the bio-accumulation that occurs
during CO2 extraction and/or cannot purge the byproducts correctly.

The distillation race was never going to end well and the next shoe to drop
will certainly be on the quasi-legal CBD/hemp scams which -- if you think
these tests are bad -- buckle up.

~~~
arzt
Agree - which is why I think blanket legalization with heavy federal
regulation would be a best case scenario for all the reasons you point out.

------
bb88
Apparently this has been known since at least August. This article goes into
some detail about issues being talked about here in the comments.

[https://www.inverse.com/article/58581-dank-
vapes](https://www.inverse.com/article/58581-dank-vapes)

------
stronglikedan
Why don't they name the brands that _did_ test positive? They mention Dank
Vapes, but certainly there were others.

~~~
dnhz
Are there such things as brands on the black market? Any producer can imitate
another producer's product.

~~~
nickthegreek
The article states that it is easy to actually buy empty carts and even real
branded packaging. Why anyone would sell that is insane...

"One of the shops visited by NBC News in Los Angeles sold packaging for Dank
Vapes Gorilla Glue, the same brand of vape that Castillo was using before he
landed in the hospital ICU. "

~~~
gburdell3
There's no such thing as a legit "Dank Vapes" cartridge. The "brand" only
exists as packaging for black-market cartridges. You can buy the cartridges
and "branded" boxes by the hundreds on AliExpress.

~~~
excalibur
Further reading: [https://www.inverse.com/article/58581-dank-
vapes](https://www.inverse.com/article/58581-dank-vapes)

THIS appears to be the problem, or a sizable portion of it anyway. The media
sensationalizes, the officials implement draconian bans, and none of it
addresses the actual issues it's intended to combat.

~~~
samfriedman
Wow, this is a much better article; it even calls the myclobutanil connection,
and a month earlier than NBC's story to boot.

------
diggan
I'm failing to understand why someone would choose these "wet" cartridges that
are mixed with other compounds, compared to just get a dry-herb vaporizer that
you just put the marijuana in. Could some enligheten me?

~~~
sillypog
I think you can get much higher ratios of CBD to THC in this format. This is
what people with chronic pain and anxiety are looking for.

~~~
matharmin
You can get low THC/high CBD ratios in any format. In Switzerland for example,
products with CBD is legal, and up to 1% of THC. So you end up with lots of
different products, including dry herb, that has 0-1% THC.

It may be harder to get in places where higher THC content is legal (since
most users want more THC), but it's definitely not limited to just wet
cartridges.

------
elbrian
End the war on drugs.

------
completelylegit
How is it that the CDC has been investigating this for a couple weeks and it
was NBC News that found the contamination in their tests?

~~~
mistermann
Oh, the CDC was always sure to make a subtle reference to THC cartridges, in
passing and way down near the end of the article.

I wonder if they're still doing the same now.

------
refurb
The article is not that helpful.

 _The products all contained myclobutanil, a fungicide that can transform into
hydrogen cyanide when burned.

"You certainly don’t want to be smoking cyanide," said Antonio Frazier, the
vice president of operations at CannaSafe. "I don’t think anyone would buy a
cart that was labeled hydrogen cyanide on it."_

Looking as the MSDS for myclobutanil[1]:

\- the fire hazard for health is rated as 1 (low), suggesting burning the
product isn't a major health concern

\- oral acute toxicity starts at 1.5g/kg or over 100 gram for an average adult

\- inhalation toxicity is 2.1 mg/L while the products generally showed single
digit part per million levels

No, it's not good when there are pesticides in your vape, but these tests
don't suggest they are the cause of the vape illnesses.

[1][https://www.cdms.net/ldat/mpBRS003.pdf](https://www.cdms.net/ldat/mpBRS003.pdf)

~~~
aisofteng
From your link:

> PHYSICAL HAZARDS: May release toxic fumes in burned.

The article mentions the process of burning it as resulting in hydrogen
cyanide, which is consistent with the sheet.

~~~
refurb
Except the fire fighting risk is low.

Article provided no proof it actually releases HCN.

~~~
scarejunba
Pretty easy to find
[http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_08d6/...](http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_08d6/0901b803808d60fd.pdf?filepath=productsafety/pdfs/noreg/233-01023.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc)

------
gpm
Meanwhile in Canada - a 50 year old using nicotine vapes to quit smoking is
having problems.

[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/vaping-related-
illne...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/vaping-related-illness-
quebec-1.5299487)

------
dmix
I haven't once bought legal weed here in Canada because they aren't legally
allowed to sell CO2 filtered vape cartridges.

Fortunately there's plenty of 'grey market' weed shops online and in the city
to find vape product refills.

After using them I'm never going back to 'smoking' weed. It's seems so much
dirtier and smellier that way, while the vape oil feels clean, filtered of
everything but the useful THC part, and far more discrete when walking around
with friends.

But the grey nature still makes it a concern. I hope the Canadian gov starts
adopting vape pens as part of the legal code. But given the FUD against it I'm
not holding my breath - which sadly should be the reason they do regulate it,
not ignore it.

------
lutorm
Personally, I'm not inhaling anything period. The risk/reward calculation just
looks ridiculously unattractive to me. Fucking up your lungs, be it from
tobacco, other vaporized products, solvents, paint, whatever, is just not
worth it.

------
honkycat
Glad to see my go-to product, Orchid Essentials, tested clean. Great product,
great company.

I was confident they would. They post their lab tests on their website, and
only provide PURE BHO with no additives.

They also use a ceramic heating element as opposed to a metal one which can
break down over time.

I have always been worried about skeezy vape companies, so I did the research
before I started using their product.

------
rolltiide
From the article, all the California regulated dispensaries tested safe while
the “decriminalized” 1850’s world fair snake oil is killing people.

Who could have seen that coming?

~~~
tekno45
another problem is you can buy the packaging for legit brands

The give away is that the THC and CDB test results are pre-printed on the box,
instead of a STICKER on the package. Don't buy vape carts off the street yall.

~~~
zupzupper
Kinda worrying that they found "Heavy Hitters" to have pesticides, that brand
is sold all around me here in CA at the legal shops.

------
BonerBoi420
Part of the problem is packaging from these brands are ripped off, produced in
mass and sold on ebay. Anyone can buy these boxes and put their own carts in
them and pass them off as legitimate. Many brands now have QR codes on the box
you can scan for authenticity and laboratory test results. Im sure people will
find a way to spoof those too.

~~~
mtnGoat
They are already being spoofed.

It's crazy moving between legal and illegal states, the amount of knowledge
and safety involved change dramatically. Those in illegal states have no idea
about proper packaging, that they should be able to check test results online,
etc. So just some QR code linking to a page full of non-sense fools them.

~~~
BonerBoi420
Right. Im in a legal state and grow myself. I do take some issue with the gate
keeping for commercial grow licences but its important these products are
properly produced, especially on the extraction side more so then the growing
side. Once its legal everywhere this wont be much of an issue because products
will be regulated and bootleg products will be pushed to the fringe. You
wouldn't buy Tylenol in a back alley to save a buck or two when its available
at CVS in a sealed package, same will eventually be true of cannabis
concentrates.

~~~
mtnGoat
exactly. it needs to be moved to the front sides of buildings, not the back
alleys.

my brother who is pretty anti-cannabis visited recently so i took him to a
dispensary, his mind was changed once he saw how it was all being ran and that
rules were enforced, etc.

------
linuxftw
I've been saying this about the entire vaping industry since day one. You
don't know what you're putting into your body, and even if the 'base'
substance is legit, you have no idea what contaminants might be present.

Doing illegal drugs has a clear danger of bodily harm due to counterfeit and
contaminated substances.

~~~
dqpb
There is a surprising number of HN'ers irrationally committed to using and
defending drugs.

You would think a site oriented toward engineers would have more...
Hypochondriacs - people aware of the fragility of their system.

Maybe Im wrong about this being a site for engineers.

~~~
honkycat
Drugs make you feel good. They release chemicals in your brain that say:
"Yeah, more of that!"

There is a craft to producing the drugs. Home brewing beer and wine, growing a
weed plant in the woods behind your house, these are fun hobbies which you get
to enjoy and share the fruits of your labor.

A lot of extremely talented people choose to do drugs daily to kick back and
augment their moods. Drugs can be taken in a social setting such that you feel
a communal experience in having your perceptions altered in a similar way in
the same moment. They lower inhibitions and give you the opportunity to
indulge in your senses.

Humans have always done drugs and will continue to do so long after you and I
are gone. Drugs have been used in coming of age rituals and celebrations for
thousands of years. Just because you think "engineers" should be above such
creature comforts does not mean your idea has any merit whatsoever.

“Taking LSD was a profound experience, one of the most important things in my
life. LSD shows you that there’s another side to the coin, and you can’t
remember it when it wears off, but you know it. It reinforced my sense of what
was important—creating great things instead of making money, putting things
back into the stream of history and of human consciousness as much as I
could.” - Steve Jobs

~~~
johnisgood
> Drugs make you feel good. They release chemicals in your brain that say:
> "Yeah, more of that!"

I would like to add this:

Alongside factors such as peer pressure and cultural availability, _drugs are
instrumental means to valuable ends_.

Muller and Schumann (2011) delineate the following well-established functions
for non-addictive consumption: (1) improved social interaction; (2)
facilitated mating and sexual behavior; (3) improved cognitive performance;
(4) facilitated recovery and coping with psychological stress; (5) self-
medication for mental problems; (6) sensory curiosity - expanded experiential
horizon; and, finally, (7) euphoria and hedonia.

Plus, being against the War on Drugs does not mean that one would personally
consume drugs.

For the curious I highly recommend a book titled "Addiction and Choice:
Rethinking the relationship" by Nick Heather and Gabriel Segal:
[https://global.oup.com/academic/product/addiction-and-
choice...](https://global.oup.com/academic/product/addiction-and-
choice-9780198727224&lang=en)

