
Drowning Doesn’t Look Like Drowning (2010) - Tomte
http://mariovittone.com/2010/05/154/?resubmit=hn
======
sago
When I trained lifeguards this was the most important lesson, bar none.

I personally have never seen IDR look like 'climbing a ladder' (hands are
usually out sideways, though I'm not doubting other's more comprehensive
experience). But head tilted right back, so the mouth is the highest point of
the body, and only the face visible, that's been the key. The nasty thing is
that, in an outdoor environment where the water isn't transparent, this means
that drowning people are very difficult to spot. Most of my years spent
lifeguarding were hours spent counting and memorising people: 28 people in
this section, two leaving, three boys with blonde hair horseplaying, twelve
girls kicking up splashes, watch for the dark haired girl in green who is
bouncing along not swimming, careful of the four people the splashes are
obscuring...

~~~
Tomte
There is a series of videos on Youtube with examples from some big pool.

I thought, now I know what to look for, how hard can it be?

Turns out, very.

I watched twenty videos or so. Not once did I see the guy in trouble before
the lifeguard blew the whistle and jumped in. Usually not even after watching
him the first few meters swim (and thus limiting the possible area to watch).

~~~
oska
Here is one video [1] from the channel I believe you are referring to.

[1] [https://youtu.be/4sFuULOY5ik](https://youtu.be/4sFuULOY5ik)

~~~
sago
Watch the lifeguard during this. She's covering her area, but stops sweeping
it a few seconds into the vid, she looks down, checks back towards the middle,
looks away, checks back. She begins to move into space to enter as soon as the
kid's ring flips and is in the water as soon as he goes vertical. An excellent
bit of guarding, totally exemplary. I'd be very surprised if she didn't
mentally note him as a high risk a while before this.

~~~
Natsu
I've just watched a number of videos from that series. The #1 thing to look
for in that pool is tube flips, most of which can be predicted by looking at
who is monkeying around with their tube in some strange way.

That said, I can't spot anything nearly as fast as the guards do. And the I
replay the video, knowing just who to watch and sometimes I'm surprised at how
long they've been in the water when the guard finds them.

I can't really see the "ladder climbing" referenced elsewhere, but the style
of "swimming" that goes on during drowning does stand out after you've seen a
few. There were a few times where I thought the person was still swimming at
first, especially the kids trying to swim back to their tube and failing, but
even then you can sort of see a change in their behavior when instinct takes
over and their body just starts jerking around.

EDIT: Here's a good example of what I mean. Watch how their swimming suddenly
changes when they start drowning and their arms begin thrashing. I actually
found this one before the guard whistled:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXFgOBjk860](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXFgOBjk860)

~~~
mdonahoe
I watched about 30 of those videos and enjoyed the challenge. Like a moving
Where's Waldo.

I agree about the tube flips. It was almost always a kid in a tube that leans
over too far and then gets dumped out. Once I knew what to look for, I usually
saw it about a second or two before the lifeguard. I was very focused, and it
helps to know that the drowning is _going_ to occur in the next few seconds. I
would be very stressed out working as life guard, having to do this search all
day for real!

In a couple of videos, the victim was a parent with child that left their tube
and was struggling to both swim and hold their child above water. There was
one tricky case where two people were swimming to get the same tube, and the
one who got there second, thus losing the tube, started drowning. I was
surprised that this person could switch from swimming to drowning so quickly.

It was also scary to see people in the pool next to the drowning victims not
react at all. Validated the article.

~~~
sago
> was struggling to both swim and hold their child above water

Rescuing active drowning victims (this kind of drowning) is very dangerous,
for that reason. The victim won't just hold you, they'll _climb_ you. And keep
climbing until their head and shoulders are out of the water. Because your
combined bodies have finite buoyancy this means you go down. The victim
doesn't have to be big to push you under. It is nothing to do with strength at
all, and nothing to do with how strong a swimmer you are. I defy any strong
swimmer to tread water for more than a couple of seconds with a 6 year old on
their shoulders.

So a lifeguard without a flotation device has to approach victims very
differently. Normally from behind, where they can't be climbed. Their aim is
to get the victims head _only just_ above the water. The victim is panicked,
and won't like that one bit. Some of the rescues in the video aren't that
great for that reason: the lifeguard doesn't keep the buoy between them and
the victim, putting them one slip of the buoy away from a possible double
drowning.

I've heard LGTIs tell students that in extreme cases they should wait for the
victim to go passive (lose consciousness) before a rescue, if they can't
approach safely. I'd never teach that, because it is unnecessarily callous and
easy to misinterpret. But as a rescuer you do have to be prepared to swim down
to get the victim to release you. Being safe around a drowning person is hard,
and most lifeguard trainees _massively_ overrate their swimming power in that
situation. That's why there are so many multiple drownings.

> I was surprised that this person could switch from swimming to drowning so
> quickly.

That's a really good point. It is surprising how folks you mark as being 'okay
swimmers' can change immediately something goes wrong. I think it is the power
of that instinct. I don't know how many people gradually get into difficulty,
then begin drowning. It's rare, I think. More common something in their brain
switches from 'in control' to 'panic' and the body takes over.

~~~
ntoronto
> Rescuing active drowning victims (this kind of drowning) is very dangerous,
> for that reason. The victim won't just hold you, they'll climb you.

My only save as a lifeguard was a double for this very reason: the drowning
kid's older brother jumped in to save him, and they both went under as the
younger one scrambled for air.

"Good thing I jumped in after you, huh?" said the older brother, after I
dragged them to the side. I wanted to punch him.

------
irishcoffee
I was a lifeguard from the age of 16-22, indoor and outdoor, I learned to swim
starting at age 4. Not once did a person drown at the facilities I worked, my
watch or not. I probably rescued ~100 people in that span of time.

When you're around a pool that much, its almost instinctual. You can
immediately spot weak swimmers, even on busy days. You develop the ability to
"group" people, both by proximity and in terms of strength. Also, 95% of life-
guarding is preventive. You can spot a problem before it actually becomes a
problem, much the same way one might do while driving.

To this day whenever I'm at a pool or ocean, I'm scanning the water. I don't
even realize I'm doing it most of the time. I'll be at a pool and ask a child
to stop running, out of sheer habit. I'll see teenagers tossing a little kid
up in the air in water too shallow, and ask them to stop, and sheepishly
realize I don't work there. Ironically they always listen.

~~~
ntoronto
> Also, 95% of life-guarding is preventive.

I remember this well: sitting in a chair, scanning the pool, and every 20
seconds yelling, "Walk, please!" I was a living reminder to slow the heck
down.

I'm pretty sure it was one of my most important tasks, though. The only
serious injury I ever witnessed (a skull fracture) happened when someone was
running on deck.

------
metasean
I'm a lousy swimmer, but when I was an active duty Marine I had to swim qual
every year.

One year during swim qual I was doing the last bit, basically get from point A
to point B in helmet, camies, and boots. Since it didn't matter how we got
from point A to point B, I always did a sad approximation of a backstroke.

This particular year, as I was approaching point B, a safety swimmer started
yelling at me to hurry. As I crossed point B, I felt his arms go under my
armpits and he rapidly pulled me toward the side of the pool, where he and a
corpsman (e.g. Navy nurse) pulled me up on the side of the pool, such that I
was sitting with my feet in the pool. At which point the corpsman started
giving me the Heimlich maneuver, and a rather significant amount of water
started coming out of me.

I had been struggling slightly more than normal, and to a point, I knew I was
gradually sinking, but I was so focused on finishing that I genuinely didn't
even realize I was taking in water. It was only as I was on the side of the
pool and watched as water came out, with each of the corpsman's compressions
that I realized what had happened. Thankfully the safety swimmer and corpsman
realized!

------
amelius
> of the approximately 750 children who will drown next year, about 375 of
> them will do so within 25 yards of a parent or other adult. In ten percent
> of those drownings, the adult will actually watch them do it, having no idea
> it is happening.

I wonder how a parent or adult could ever forgive themselves. Tragic.

~~~
randomleaf
You don't. Not ever. 27 years later, you will still think about it... every...
day. And you would do anything, give up anything you have and anything you've
ever done for the chance to undo it.

------
Tomte
Previously:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1492835](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1492835)

------
Zuider
This website cycles through a series of videos. You will see a different scene
depending on when you opened the link. For that reason, not all of the
comments here refer the same particular incident. Even so, they all depict the
common characteristics of someone drowning, followed by a lifeguard who
quickly spots this and acts to save the child. Sometimes you can see the
rescued child's face and the panic is obvious.

At first viewing, it is not always obvious why the lifeguard acted, but on
repeat viewing the signs of drowning become very obvious: head persistently
under the water, arms held out to the side, body rigid, jerky movements, and
remaining in one spot rather than swimming about. Sometimes it is possible to
mark them as being at risk before they get into difficulty.

Everybody should learn how recognize these symptoms.

------
zodiac
Serious question: why didn't we evolve a more effective instinctive drowning
response than the one we currently have? For instance I learned how to tread
water the first or second time I entered a pool and cannot remember a time
when I would drown if placed in deep water, even though I took a long time to
learn how to swim.

~~~
jayrox
that's a good question. in my experience drowning often looks like a person
standing straight up and down with their legs straight and still and their
arms reached out wide to their sides. head tilted back to try and get their
mouth above the surface. they kind of look like they are trying to fly to up
to bird mom for a bite of food.

its ridiculous looking and absolutely terrible as a self preservation
technique.

i'd be willing to bet if many people trying to save themselves kicked their
legs a couple times they'd have a much better chance at survival on their own.
but they don't, they forget about their legs and try to fly.

one guy i jumped in after went about a foot or two under water, stretched his
arms out and flapped them up and down. his down stroke was never enough to
bring his head above the water and his up stroke was enough to undo the little
his down stroke did. he looked like a fishing bobber bouncing up and down
under the surface as a fish nibbled off the bait. i had been watching that
particular guy as he waited in line for a diving board, got to the front of
the line, climbed up the couple steps, looked around then got back down. he
did that 2 or 3 times before he got the courage to actually jump. when i
noticed him doing it i did a quick chirp over to the guard in the boat and
gave him a sign that signaled i was watching someone and would likely be going
in after them.

------
davelnewton
Real drowning is a quiet, terrifying event.

In waves it can happen almost invisibly. Remembering who you've seen where,
and when, is challenging but critical.

------
gjvc
why does this get posted periodically? is it in order to remind people who are
running startups that they may be going under but that it might not always be
immediately obvious, especially to the untrained eye?

~~~
Tomte
It fits neatly into the guidelines, as it is not only important, but also
highly useful and interesting information (I didn't know about IDR before).
And well written.

You are simply mistaken if you think this is "Startup News".

~~~
gjvc
Yup, agree, and thank you for the clarification.

