
How to assess the quality of garments (2014) - bookofjoe
https://anuschkarees.com/blog/2014/05/01/how-to-assess-the-quality-of-garments-a-beginners-guide-part-i/
======
dhd415
In a previous life when I wore suits to work on a frequent basis, I got
interested in this topic and spent way too much time learning about it. I now
have a closet full of quality clothes that I wear much less frequently, but,
for whatever it's worth, they'll last me the rest of my life.

There's a lot of good info in this article, but there's also a lot more beyond
it. For example, it mentions (accurately) that the fineness of cotton and wool
fibers is an indicator of its quality, but the fiber length is a greater
indicator of quality. Unfortunately, cotton and wool products are frequently
marketed according to their fiber diameters (e.g., "800 thread count bed
sheets" and "Super 100s" wools for suits), but you will never see the fiber
length listed. You need to either be able to feel the fabric to assess its
fiber length (something that I was never really able to do well) or rely on
the recommendation of someone else who can. It's like saying that a network
link has 10Gb bandwidth but failing to mention its 100ms minimum latency.

Another item that they mention that is frequently misunderstood is that there
are different types of fabrics, especially wools. Just because a specific type
of wool such as merino is mentioned doesn't mean that it's good quality. There
is both junk merino and excellent merino. Just because it came from a merino
sheep doesn't mean it's great. The same goes for cashmere, alapaca, angora,
mohair, camel, etc. It's like saying that it's an SSD rather than a 7200rpm
HDD. The former is almost certainly better, but there are still a wide range
of SSD characteristics to be evaluated.

Yet another item is that while it is true that expensive clothes are not
necessarily high quality clothes, it is almost always the case that high
quality clothes are expensive. Or rather, they're expensive upfront but often
turn out to be more economical over the life of the garment. In either case,
they will be more pleasant to wear than a lower quality alternative.

And the Last item, since I could go on indefinitely about this, is that
garment quality should be assessed on three axes -- quality of materials,
quality of construction, and fit. If the first is lacking, the garment's
material will pill, rip, fray, or just plain wear out too fast. If the second
if lacking, it will fall apart too soon. If the last is lacking, it will be
uncomfortable and look bad on you. The trick is, of course, to find garments
which have all three.

~~~
dlivingston
Do you have any high-quality clothing stores that you recommend?

~~~
dhd415
What kind of clothes are you looking for? In general, it's hard to find stores
where you can walk in and be assured that anything they carry is high quality.
Even the high-end department stores such as Saks Fifth Ave. and Neiman Marcus
are going to carry a lot of "fashion" brands that are expensive but not
necessarily good quality. Some local boutiques (e.g., Louis Boston though it
too has declined in recent years) may still provide that, but you typically
have to either discover those on your own or have friends who are already in
the know. These days, I wear a lot more chinos than suits and I buy most of
mine from Bill's Khakis
([https://www.billskhakis.com](https://www.billskhakis.com) \-- no
affiliation, of course). They are not cheap, but their fabrics and
construction are significantly better than anything you'll find at a mass
retailer and they have several different fits, one of which works quite well
for me. Another nice thing about them is that their fits are consistent. I
have, from time to time, found decent pairs at lower-end retailers such as
Uniqlo, but the model that fits me well lasts only for one season and I can
never find it again.

~~~
projectileboy
Your comments have been really informative. I have no knowledge of fabrics or
clothes, but I can second Bill’s Khakis. I had a pair that lasted many years -
looked and felt better than maybe any other pair of pants I’ve owned.

~~~
technofiend
Based on Bill's prices I feel compelled to mention signing up for their email
list yields a 30% discount code. That's a $48 discount on one pair of pants.

------
elliekelly
In high school during the summers I worked as a seamstress making vastly
overpriced custom curtains for an interior designer. I learned a quick & dirty
method of judging the quality of just about anything made of fabric: look at
the fabric grain relative to the primary vertical seams (pant legs, jacket
sleeve, shirt torso).

The angle at which a piece of fabric is cut can drastically change the
shape/fit of the item but "cheap" items are often made quickly and not much
care is given to lining up the pattern correctly before cutting. If you've
ever had a t-shirt that always seems to twist on you, it's because of the way
the fabric was cut. On the other hand, if someone has taken the time to line
up the pattern with the selvage, you can just about guarantee they haven't cut
any major corners with the rest of the piece.

The fabric "grain" should be parallel to the seam. Take a look at Primark
seams and then take a look at Brooks Brothers seams and you'll immediately see
the difference/know what to look for. Expensive jeans seem to be the biggest
offender in my experience.

~~~
cli
>Take a look at Primark seams and then take a look at Brooks Brothers seams

I'm not familiar with either. Which store is supposed to have the better
seams?

~~~
mattlondon
Primark is a very cheap store - t-shirts for £2, trousers for £8 etc. It is
fast fashion so stuff changes rapidly and frequently. If there is something on
the catwalk at a fashion show that causes a lot of interest or someone famous
wears something particularly noteworthy in a magazine photo, Primark will have
something very similar to it in their stores within a week or two. Primark is
hugely popular in the UK and elsewhere in Europe. Tourists at the central
London stores (which are HUGE by the way - the size of a typical department
store of years past) literally flock there.

The shopping experience is often chaotic (clothes strewn all over the place)
and quality is generally not thought to be great - stuff might last only a few
washes ... but it varies - I have a generic blue hoodie from Primark that cost
less than £10 but it has lasted literally years and has some high quality
features like the ends of the draw strings are finished in metal (not plastic
and not just tied) so have not frayed or come apart. I don't think their
quality is any worse than other high street retailers though - often they
charge 3x 4x or more prices for equivalent quality.

I will certainly be using this guide in the future to pick the finest Primark
has to offer!

~~~
joosters
Same experience here, Primark clothes are always dirt cheap but the quality
varies wildly. As I can't tell the difference, I have T-shirts from there that
have practically self-destructed after one wash, and others that have kept
good and comfy for years!

~~~
sct202
When you source from the cheapest vendors, sometimes you get lucky with a
quality manufacturer that just happened to have excess capacity to make some
stuff from Primark or whoever else.

------
settsu
It's interesting how synthetics were mostly lumped together and largely
undifferentiated. To be fair, that post is over 5 years old and some seemingly
significant advances in fabrics for consumer garments have become widely
available in the meantime.

I've personally come to feel cotton is vastly over-rated as a clothing
material for anything but cost-saving goals (which certainly is an important
factor.) Of course there's the old adage "Cotton Kills", referring to cold
weather, but it's also miserably subpar for hot conditions for some of the
same reasons: as it absorbs sweat the fibers swell and reduce the fabric's
breathability, leading to increased body heat retention. You may be inclined
to think a wet fabric aids in cooling but that effect is short lived once
evaporation can't keep up with the addition of more perspiration and air
movement slows to almost none. And that's before we even get into the
resulting bacterial overgrowth, AKA body odor, for which cotton is notoriously
awful at mitigating.

So, anyhow, if you have the time, means, and inclination, I highly recommend
looking at newer fabric alternatives like lyocell (typically found as the
branded names of Tencel, Modal, or Viscose).

And you should always consider merino wool and hemp, which are most often
found combined with a synthetic or two, typically for improved elasticity and
shape retention, but also for increased comfort since they are both not
historically known for their softness. Wool is in many ways the holy grail of
fabrics (for reasons which you can find in fantastic detail online) and the
relatively new variant of merino only improves on a well-earned reputation.
Whereas hemp, despite reigning as the indisputable champion of strength and
durability for literally thousands of years in _non-clothing applications_ ,
has recently seen a resurgence thanks to various factors, notably improvements
in comfort. (That said, my personal experience with hemp clothing has shown
that it still leaves something to be desired in the area of real world
durability, from the perspective of the several various pieces of clothing
I've owned--mostly shirts, plus a couple pants--starting in the late 1990s and
purchased as recently as 2019.)

~~~
rsync
"I've personally come to feel cotton is vastly over-rated as a clothing
material for anything but cost-saving goals (which certainly is an important
factor.) Of course there's the old adage "Cotton Kills", referring to cold
weather ..."

FWIW, cotton is very useful as an underlayer for firefighting.

It's very important to not have any synthetic fabrics as underlayers -
especially in a wildland/forest fire situation where a flash of heat that
might only result in a first degree burn of your skin melts the synthetic
fabric _to your skin_.

~~~
magduf
Wouldn't you want to use Nomex for this kind of thing? It's synthetic and
extremely flame-resistant, which is why it's used for clothing for
firefighters, race car drivers, and military pilots.

~~~
argyleaf
It is an option but it is neither particularly breathable, nor flexible, nor
inexpensive.

For some PPE all you are looking for is no-melt (which would leave molten goo
on your skin that would increase the damage)or provides a minimal level of
protection, e.g. NFPA 70E PPE level 1 for arc flash, suitable to your expected
risk exposure.

------
artsyca
How refreshing to see something like this on HN; I want to iterate that there
is an inextricable link between textiles and computer technology going back to
the invention of the loom

~~~
hi5eyes
techwear has been a trendy industry for solid 5+ years now

~~~
kaybe
Can you give some trending examples that are not just phones strapped to the
body?

~~~
brandonhorst
That isn't what techwear means [https://www.grailed.com/drycleanonly/an-
introduction-to-tech...](https://www.grailed.com/drycleanonly/an-introduction-
to-techwear)

~~~
kaybe
Oh, I see. Thanks!

------
kingludite
I get what the article is getting at, its lovely for what it is trying to do.

my take: Cloths are what people you meet look at. They create a mood in the
spectator and leave an impression of who you are. First you have to figure out
who you are, who you use to be and who you want to become. Who are the people
you meet? they use to be what? who do you want them to be? After doing that
you pick cloths that compliment the becoming part without flying to far from
who you/they are.

Try wearing a kilt or a lederhose and watch the world around you change.

If you look at today's fashion its like everyone is heading to a funeral. Like
they got tired of carrying their soul around then forget where they left it.

~~~
mandelbrotwurst
Is everyone not heading to a funeral? ;)

~~~
paulcole
Not me! I’ll never go to one and have it in my will that there won’t be one
when I pass.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Your Earthly remains will be disposed of, that's your funeral, the form of
yours may differ to others.

May I ask why you'll "never go to one", and perhaps how old you are?

~~~
paulcole
I'm 35. Just not interested.

Don't have a big family and the ones that are alive live far away. I'm not
going to waste my time to travel for a funeral. Not many friends either to be
honest.

And as for myself, I don't think having the crematorium dispose of my cremains
counts as a funeral but whatever.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I've not suffered much in terms of death of loved ones, I'm not much older
than you, but you'd probably be surprised by who will miss you: a funeral is
for those left behind and in my experience (which is like I said limited) is a
help to coping with grief. A funeral just needs to be a chance for people to
remember, talk, share.

~~~
paulcole
I don’t think I’ll be surprised at all. I’ll be dead.

The ones of people who I care about are aware of what I want. I have a chronic
and incurable disease where sudden death isn’t that unlikely. I’ve come close
once and I don’t remember being scared and it didn’t hurt. Just a thing that
happened.

Nobody should be surprised by it at this point. Accept that it might happen
and if it doesn’t something else will get me in the end.

------
dahart
This is really cool! I’ve complained recently to several people near me that
it’s difficult for me to know whether the clothes I’m buying will last. It
doesn’t seem like there’s much correlation between price and quality, so
frustrating to spend more money and have something fall apart. Now I have a
nice detailed guide.

> [...] almost every garment needs a little tailoring to make it fit the
> contours of our shape.

Honestly never thought about tailoring the clothes I buy in the mall, I always
just thought of that as something you do with expensive suits and dresses. Now
I have to start tinkering with my clothes...

~~~
jimmaswell
It seems even basic clothes tinkering takes some skill. I had a pair of jeans
with a hole, so I patched on a piece of an old pair whose legs were too long.
Kept eventually coming off. Maybe a sewing machine was needed.

~~~
buttikin
If you don't have a sewing machine, and you're interested in
repairing/tailoring your own clothes (and most importantly you have the time)
it's well worth looking into historic sewing methods. Hand sewing can be just
as strong if not stronger than machine sewing, it just takes the right
techniques and the time and patience to sit there and do it.

I've found the two most useful stitches I've picked up are the felling stitch,
which is great for hemming and finishing seams that unravel; and darning for
filling in holes, because instead of adding a patch you are essentially re-
weaving a small area of fabric.

Proper denim jeans are quite hard to mend though even if you know what you're
doing, especially if you've worn through/blown out the inner thigh region.
Wherever you've sewn will become a new point of stress on the denim and it is
likely to just pull away the weave of the fabric from that point.

~~~
ValentineC
> _Proper denim jeans are quite hard to mend though even if you know what you
> 're doing, especially if you've worn through/blown out the inner thigh
> region. Wherever you've sewn will become a new point of stress on the denim
> and it is likely to just pull away the weave of the fabric from that point._

This happens to every pair of mine, and is always the reason I am forced to
retire them. Do you think it'll help if I reinforced the inside with old denim
from another pair?

~~~
mrspuratic
Should do, if it's stitched down properly. Have a look at Levi 511 "commuter"
to see how it's done, basically two extra triangles of fabric.

~~~
huac
this is known as a "gusset"

outlier pants also have this feature, makes biking or just walking around a
breeze

------
nimbius
Disclosure: I'm coming from a blue collar background as a master diesel
mechanic

Quality is build + aesthetic for me. Some brands i wear include Texas jeans,
Chippewa boots, and all american clothing company. The quality from domestic
apparel is in my experience massively superior to foreign brands.

Carhartt jackets for winter are incredibly warm and gave great value, but
their aesthetic isn't always popular. They last nearly forever.

Another point in quality is how easy the garment is to service. My boots are
resoled once a year by a local cobbler, and my leather jacket from legendary
leather is also quite serviceable at a local dry cleaner. I try to avoid
throwing away jackets or shoes/boots.

~~~
technofiend
>but their aesthetic isn't always popular.

My Carhartt clothing is some of the best made and longest wearing I own.
You're going to laugh but Carhartt is trying to go upmarket and establish
themselves as a fashion brand in Europe! Imagine my surprise to trip across a
Carhartt store with a wall of gimme caps / trucker hats on display in
Frankfurt, Germany!

Hopefully they expand their profitability by getting their name out there
rather than cutting costs on material and quality but I've already seen some
Amazon reviews alleging the new stuff is sourced out of China with a drop in
quality. If that's actually true and it's not just counterfeits flooding
Amazon I'll be looking at Schaefer or Cinch next.

~~~
clydethefrog
Carhartt WIP has been an European streetwear brand for years now. I wrote an
introduction four years ago to this brand in /r/streetwear.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/streetwear/comments/2d0gi4/brand_in...](https://www.reddit.com/r/streetwear/comments/2d0gi4/brand_in..).

~~~
e12e
I think it's been a general trend for a while (at the very least since the
dawn of hip hop, probably punk) that working-class work wear has been leaning
towards fashion (Same for military wear).

Even Swedish Blåklädar
([https://www.blaklader.se/](https://www.blaklader.se/)) , which is AFAIK a
fairly new brand, seem to have to lines ; a low quality, highly priced
"fashion" line, and an affordable, high quality "work wear" line (that
actually market to construction etc businesses, and often include safety wear
features with appropriate certifications).

It drives me nuts that it's getting harder and harder to find decent "real"
surplus military clothing and cheap work wear (maybe especially in Europe?) -
while many of the "same" brands are readily available as overpriced fashion
wear.

This really became apparent when I figured out that Blåklädar actually have a
handful of stores deticated for b2b (vat not included in prices, generally
require a business billing address to purchase) - which quite apart from the
not included vat, we're cheaper and generally more "functional" than the stuff
with the same brand carried by retailers...

------
huffmsa
Its only mentioned once or twice in the article but I don't think it can be
emphasized enough

 _A high quality garment not only looks good, but it feels good to wear._

I have people ask me almost daily if I'd like to take my suit jacket off, and
I explain to them that because my jacket fits properly and it's made of decent
materials, it's quite comfortable to wear.

One of the great fashion tragedies was Jos A Banks and Men's Wearhouse making
American men believe suiting is an uncomfortable sack which you should strip
off at the first possible moment.

Or to borrow from Dion Sanders (American football player who was known for
dressing and undressing his kit multiple times before a game until he got it
just right):

 _" If you look good, you feel good, and if you feel good, you play good."_

------
on_and_off
>. And: If there aren’t any pills on the garment when you try it on (not even
on the collar, cuffs or inner thighs), the item gets a major thumbs up.

From my understanding, this is something that manufacturers have been gaming a
lot by treating cheap quality wool so it is very soft and does not pill while
in the store but after 2 or 3 washes you will realize that it pills like
crazy. While that rougher wool (because it has longer fibers) might be itchy
in the store but it will soften up and won't pill.

Same thing with selvedge denim. 10 years ago it was synonym with quality.

Nowadays it means absolutely nothing (when it isn't just a fake selvedge).

------
IgorPartola
I mostly dress pretty casually: jeans and a T shirt is pretty typical. My
shirts “fail” not because of stitching or things like that. Most of the time
they get armpit stains from deodorant after probably 20 time I wear them or
so. At that point I toss them. I don’t see how higher laity fabric would
result in anything different, so I stick to cheaper basic shirts for everyday
wear. I like clothes, but I like variety. I’d rather have 4 different belts I
can mix and match, and replace them for $10-20 when they wear our rather than
the one indestructible $100 belt. Quality clothing is good, cheap clothing has
its uses too.

~~~
JohnBooty
Try the "prescription strength" antiperspirant. You will sweat much less.

It's more expensive, but you use less of it, so each container lasts longer.
So it's not much more expensive in the long run by my experience. Especially
if it saves you money on shirts.

~~~
jghn
For me what finally worked was counterintuitive. I stopped wearing
antiperspirant altogether. The heavy duty stuff did cause me to sweat less in
my armpits but I found I sweat everywhere else more. And I still had pit
stains. Switched to deodorant and found that I was sweating less, and pit
stains are a complete thing of the past.

~~~
dbatten
I second this. I had debilitating underarm sweat and continually ruined shirts
with pit stains. I switched from antiperspirant to a simple deodorant. I sweat
SO much less in the arm pit area and I never sweat through my shirts anymore
(unless I'm working out, of course).

Undershirts have been a good win as well - keeps the chemicals off my real
shirt, and if you get high-end ones, they're light and breathable and don't
make me any warmer.

I can't believe antiperspirant continues to exist as a product. Must be
working for somebody.

~~~
bluewater
This is like a secret that unbelievably hasn’t hit the mainstream. If you
sweat heavily pretty much no antiperspirant will work as advertised. Some of
the prescription brands have you applying the night before and I had some
success but they tended to tear up my armpits and ultimately fail. Personally
I see a direct correlation between alcohol consumption and sweating. I
discovered that as an unintended consequence during a 30 day detox. If I limit
my alcohol intake and use just a deodorant I find myself much better off.
Worth experimenting with if you’ve tried everything else.

------
VLM
For decades style has generally trended toward informal so I'd be interested
in an article focusing on informal and sportswear.

I own formal clothes, smart casual, business casual, but as trends continue
I'll probably never wear any of that stuff again, other than maybe some smart
casual on dates with my wife.

Lots of people spend all their time at work and home looking like they're
dressed for a picnic at the park or are on the way to the gym, so it would be
interesting to see an article focusing on that kind of clothing.

I don't mind looking like I'm permanently on the way to the gym; I would like
to look good doing so.

~~~
GuB-42
That article addresses most styles of clothing. It is about quality, not
fashion. And assessing the quality of cotton fibers and stitches can be done
on both T-Shirts and fancy dresses.

What may be lacking is a section on printed garments.

Sportswear is another matter. These are technical clothes, designed for
performance, with characteristics that depends on the particular sport. You
won't use the same clothes for mountaineering and for weightlifting at the
gym.

For day to day wearing, my preferences goes to light hiking clothes. They tend
to be:

\- Comfortable

\- Reasonably durable

\- Quick drying

\- Breathable and/or waterproof

\- Not too flashy, acceptable in most settings

\- With pockets, often with zippers

\- Low maintenance, somewhat stain and dirt resistant

------
oblib
Personally I've always considered clothes (or "garments" if you prefer) to be
a necessity and as long as they were comfortable, fit ok, and lasted a good
while to be sufficient.

Style is pretty far down on my list of wants. Levi's and a good T-shirt are
enough for me, but no so much for my wife. She complains on occasion about my
lack of interest in style and status symbols.

The best dressed man I've ever met was the owner of Hennessy Cognac. I helped
build custom cars for him and his son back in the `70s. One day I commented on
how nice his suits were, and that I'd not seen him wear the same one twice.

He told "I wear a new suit everyday. I have three tailors in Italy making them
for me. They send me swatches of material each week and I select those I
like."

I commented "You must have a closet bigger than our house." and he told me
"No, I give them all away after I wear them. I'd give you one if you were my
size." He went on to say he donated them to places where they could help those
who couldn't afford a nice suit and needed one to get a good job.

------
peterburkimsher
My girlfriend works in this industry, and I'm grateful for this article
teaching me how complicated her work is!

When she first told me she works with Gerber files on a daily basis, I
couldn't believe it. I thought those were just for designing PCBs! In fact, I
still think that if she could transfer her skills, she could probably get a
visa more easily. It's fun to walk around the sewing shops too, which have
lots of little blue drawers, quite similar to the electronics stores that I
enjoy.

I had a fashion idea once: a tailored shirt with a red hem, so that the white
buttons would be reminiscent of the windows in the cheatline on old
aeroplanes. It seems the whole industry is built on branding and marketing
though, so the technical side is practically a commodity.

Nevertheless, I'm still pleased to see sewing machines in the hackerspace. I
often need to fix my trousers - it's great that they have lots of pockets and
the thin fabric dries quickly, but they keep ripping in an embarrassing place
between my legs when cycling.

~~~
twic
> I had a fashion idea once: a tailored shirt with a red hem, so that the
> white buttons would be reminiscent of the windows in the cheatline on old
> aeroplanes.

When you say hem, do you mean placket?

If so, i like this idea. There are online custom tailors, like Bivolino and
iTailor, that will let you customise the placket fabric and buttons (and more)
of a shirt, so you could do this. I have a few shirts where i've done just
that, although not in your colour scheme - i like a white or pale blue pattern
for the base fabric, and then a bold floral pattern on the collar and placket.

~~~
peterburkimsher
Yes, I meant placket! Thanks for the ideas of custom tailors; I'll check out
their prices.

------
torgoguys
I choose clothing mostly to be low maintenance, functional, and inexpensive
over the long-term. I had (apparently incorrectly given the discussions here)
assumed that to be the norm around here. The amount of people expressing
difficulty finding clothing that lasts also surprises me. Maybe it's because
I'm a guy or maybe it's because I've never purchased from a fast fashion
brand. (?) In my experience a typical adult men's clothing item from Walmart
will last hundreds of wearings and washings, no special picking through the
options needed. (I'm talking just regular clothes--coats, footwear, gloves,
etc are probably exceptions to this).

The only area I've had trouble with is finding casual, easy slip on/off
everyday shoes that last a long time. I wear the same shoes literally everyday
and always seem to wear the soles out in less than a year. (Perhaps I'm asking
too much here there because I'm on my feet a lot?) Any tips on this would be
appreciated.

~~~
kaybe
There are tips out there to have 2-3 pairs of shoes and rotate between them
since the downtime for airing out lets them last longer, apparently.

(Not sure if that also includes the soles. Soles can be replaced if the
quality is there though.)

------
fouc
I hate the complete lack of transparency in garments. We need to know all the
details, including the weave?

For someone that sweats a lot in hot & humid climates, why does one white
cotton shirt show the sweat, and another doesn't? Why do I feel cooler with a
thicker cotton shirt than a thinner one?

~~~
jay_kyburz
What's even more frustrating is that its impossible to find even a brand that
uses good quality fabrics all the time. Even expensive outdoor gear can be hit
and miss.

~~~
nextos
Hope is not completely lost. Some crazy Japanese companies produce stuff with
unbelievably good fabrics all the time. E.g. The Real McCoy's, Buzz Rickson,
Studio D'Artisan and a few others.

For cotton, many of their models are loopwheeled which is a fantastic low
tension fabric that ages really well. All they are doing is to copy American
techniques from the golden age of workwear and sportswear. In fact, they try
to produce perfect reproductions.

Modern streetwear brands like Outlier and Acronym are also really good.

I love Ventile cotton as it's natural and fairly rain resistant. You can find
several brands that use Ventile made by Stotz in Switzerland in coats. For
pants, if you don't like denim German Ripsmoleskin is fantastic.

Finally, knitwear from Inis Meain and SNS Herning is machine produced but
absolutely fantastic. Expensive but not insane prices like some superb Italian
brands.

All these brands I mentioned are really high quality. Plus the production
process and materials employed are really transparent. There are many others
with different styles I would also trust like Merz B Schwanen, Maison Margiela
or SEH Kelly.

~~~
mayniac
I checked out some of the brands you mentioned, and holy crap they're
expensive. Outlier has 3 t-shirts on offer for $300, shirts from most of those
brands average $150, Acronym are selling jackets for $1k+....

I'm expecting a reply on the line of "quality comes at a cost" but I've got
shirts over a decade old that have no visible signs of wear and cost a tenth
of what these cost.

~~~
ianleighton
Disclaimer: Outlier fan.

The shorts and pants are where Outlier really shines (okay, and button-down
shirts), they’re the best value. the ~$100 Ultrafine t-shirt is luxurious as
hell but then you’ll want to wear it every day and it’s pretty delicate, being
wool. Their pants definitely uphold the “quality comes at a cost” argument.

Also there are luxury brands with questionable quality that will also sell you
a t-shirt for $100 that doesn’t have the same thought into materials or build
as Outlier, etc.

------
nerdponx
This was a surprisingly good read. However it's pretty long, so a table of
contents would be useful for navigation and future reference.

~~~
bookofjoe
[https://anuschkarees.com/blog/2014/05/04/how-to-assess-
the-q...](https://anuschkarees.com/blog/2014/05/04/how-to-assess-the-quality-
of-garments-a-beginners-guide-cheat-sheet/)

------
dlivingston
This is awesome. I absolutely hate the 'fast fashion' trend of retailers like
H&M and Forever21.

I try to find well-fitting, high quality clothes, but it's getting harder and
harder. American Eagle is probably one of the better outfitters out there.
I've been finding a lot of luck with online retailers from South Korea - the
country has a great sense of style, even for men, and their population is
generally slender build which leads to well-fitting shirts.

~~~
pretendscholar
Could you name some?

------
tsunamifury
Textile quality, tailoring and fit, or a good price: in general with very few
exceptions you pick two. I am a fanatic about my clothing quality and have
searched high and low to find the right quality. Fit is, in general based on
taste, and price is really limited by your time to search sales.

I’ve arrived at the conclusion that Loro piana, Brunello Cuccinelli and to a
lesser degree Zenga provide the very best quality generally available, but at
an ultra steep price point. Their designs are conservative, but not boring,
and they will last many seasons without going out of fashion.

On the bargain end these days he pickings have become very thin due to the
Chinese textile death spiral middle market brands are in. Uniqlo provides good
quality on certain items for a great price. But most others are single season
junk if that. Middle market brands like Theory and Vince are barely better and
not worth the cost. Gap Subsidiaries have also fallen to Zara quality for
twice the price. Same for Hugo Boss and similar.

It’s left the average person looking for reasonable fashionable designs and
good quality with very very few options. Outlet high end retail is the best
ROI today when compared to cheaper new clothing.

~~~
FDSGSG
> I’ve arrived at the conclusion that Loro piana, Brunello Cuccinelli and to a
> lesser degree Zenga provide the very best quality generally available

Why not go bespoke at this point? I keep asking myself this, laziness seems to
be the only reason.

~~~
tsunamifury
Because I wear their streetwear lines not suits. But on that note I visited
Saville Row on my last trip to London and even they talked of Brunello
admiringly.

~~~
e12e
Surely bespoke streetwear isn't more expensive than (high end) bespoke suits?

~~~
FDSGSG
(high end) bespoke streetwear is almost certainly going to be more expensive
than (high end) bespoke suits.

~~~
tsunamifury
I’m curious who might even provide that. I know at trunk shows I have
customized fabrics on street wear but never any concept of bespoke. I’d
imagine you’d have to be a six figure spend or more client to get that
privilege.

~~~
FDSGSG
Really depends on the kind of "streetwear". Bespoke jeans, leather jackets,
tees and boots will be easy to come by.

Anything more "exotic" will depend on the specific garment. Lots of
adventurous tailors around there, but some items are just fundamentally better
suited for mass production.

I don't think you'll need six figure spends unless you want something
particularly difficult to make. Everything weird is going to be expensive
though, developing a whole new pattern takes a while.

vnapersona bespoke by Maurizio Altieri looks fascinating, I'm not sure how
attainable it is though.

------
_hardwaregeek
One of the common mistakes I and many others have committed when attempting to
dress better is confusing dressing fancier for dressing better. The dress
shirt made from cheap polyester that fits badly is not better than a well made
t-shirt that fits perfectly.

Instead, I've found that one should strive for clothing that _fits_ well, has
quality _fabric_ , good _form_ and _flows_.

\- Fit is self explanatory. The clothing needs to fit well. Bear in mind
fitting well does not mean ultra tight. One's buttons should not be straining
to keep the shirt closed. Also, fit depends on the style of the outfit and the
wearer. Some people want looser pants, other people want skin tight pants.

\- Fabric's effects can be subtle, but extremely powerful. Not only does
fabric affect comfort, but it can also affect one's mood or attitude. If I'm
wearing a soft sweater, I feel free and warm, the fabric hugs me and moves
with me. If I'm wearing a more robust cotton oxford, I'm more locked down, the
fabric is a little rougher, a little less giving, but perhaps that combo makes
me feel like I'm wearing a uniform, like I'm ready to do my work. Fabric also
provides a visible sense of quality. A dress shirt that is thin and weak is
visibly different from a shirt made from a thick, stunningly white cloth. Even
if a person watching you doesn't consciously notice, they will subconsciously.

\- Form is how the item is constructed and laid out. For instance, how are the
pockets arranged in a coat? A quality coat will have subtle, well designed
pockets that integrate nicely with the aesthetic. A less thoughtful coat will
have pockets haphazardly placed, often with needless accoutrements like
epaulettes and flaps and buttons. Not that these accoutrements are bad. They
simply need to be arranged with care.

\- Flow is an element wholly invented by me, but it's basically whether the
item _works_. Does it go with your aesthetic? Does it work on your body? Does
it go with the rest of your outfit? Sometimes it just doesn't work [1] (sorry
Michael Cera). If you're not comfortable—both mentally and physically—in your
clothes, then they aren't the right clothes.

^[1] [https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/michael-cera-
se...](https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/michael-cera-seen-at-
magic-radio-whilst-promoting-arrested-news-photo/962029508)

~~~
ljsocal
Some really good insights here, thanks. In the comments I’ve read so far,
there isn't much mention of how to choose clothing. I’m fairly certain that
most people have a lot of clothing that they rarely wear and wish they hadn’t
purchased. It would be useful to have a guide (an app?) that helped with the
selection at the time of purchase. I’d like to know the probable utility of an
article of clothing before I buy it. The goal would be to optimize my closet,
my clothing budget and my “confidence” in my wardrobe

------
kaishiro
I find this article and it's premise interesting, mainly because quality
actually isn't my primary metric when buying clothes.

I'm a raving fan of Uniqlo. I love that they offer simple, unbranded
merchandise and that they're conveniently situated in most of the major cities
that I frequent.

I split my time between the US and Australia - and a few other places in
between - and the most important thing for me is replaceability. I try not to
check bags, so like to have a tight carry on setup. If I find a shirt, pants,
jacket, that I like - I want to know that I can easily replace it if needed
while on the road. This means almost my entire wardrobe, top to bottom, is
Uniqlo.

I sometimes wonder if I'm part of the problem when it comes to being a
disposable culture - I almost certainly am - but the convenience for me is too
great to give up.

~~~
jesterson
Uniqlo has strange quality difference between countries. Uniqlo in any Japan
city can boast decent quality items for reasonable prices, but if we take
Singapore for example, most items are much lower quality for exorbitant price.

~~~
ValentineC
I wonder if they practise binning, the same way the chip and hard disk makers
do.

I'm a Singapore resident and have bought Uniqlo from many countries, and I
personally think it might be more of the material and the product line. Their
jeans (even the selvage ones) and socks tend to blow out pretty quickly, but
their linen clothes and Airism products are good.

------
kareninoverseas
Thanks, hacker news! Maybe now I can stop buying all of my clothes from
Uniqlo!

Edit: who am i kidding

------
xixixao
On the topic of what quality is, I recommend reading the book Zen and the Art
of Motorcycle Maintenance.

(Also on the topic of debugging, if you replace "motorcycle maintenance" with
"computer software debugging")

------
owenversteeg
I am very surprised to see nothing about LL Bean in the comments! They're my
favorite place for high quality clothing. Very dependable stuff, I've worn
some things multiple times a week for 8+ years.

------
7373737373
A few negative examples (images) would make this explanation better

------
alliao
it's so hard to get a basic t-shirt right as well, so many people walking
around with shriveled up neck piece.

------
algesten
Mobile phone cameras can do some pretty detailed close photography now.

Wonder if one could train a ML model to recognize "quality fibres" using close
up photography?

A simpler variant would be to focus on stitching. Photographs of how fabrics
are joined and the stitches in key places.

------
wickerman
With leather I've found that price doesn't always match quality. I dance tango
and am from Argentina and the cheapest leather shoes I could find, which were
exquisitely crafted in my local neighbourhood were only about 200 pesos (at
the time, roughly 20 USD), made of leather, still perfectly usable 5 years
later. If you went to the "speciality" stores downtown you would see shoes at
10 times the price and noticeably worse quality.

(I say this because I used to side eye any cheap leather items, but I've found
that depending where you're buying and who you're buying it from it can be an
absolute bargain)

------
corey_moncure
Check any zippers it may have.

Does it say YKK on it, does it move freely and is it sturdy and made of
quality, tough materials?

Or is it flimsy and prone to binding, can the pull tab be manipulated into
some strange position?

~~~
NeedMoreTea
YKK doesn't mean quite as it did. More an indicator of probably adequate than
quality these days.

~~~
killjoywashere
YKK signals from the designer to everyone who sees the garment: "I can't
afford for this garment to fail because of the zipper".

That is, they are selling into a crowd that attends to reputation signals.
That is, in and of itself, a good signal. Take it as one of many.

Submariney sort of story, but still useful:
[https://slate.com/business/2012/04/ykk-zippers-why-so-
many-d...](https://slate.com/business/2012/04/ykk-zippers-why-so-many-
designers-use-them.html)

~~~
Fricken
I've got 2 jackets right now with broken zippers. I just checked, they're both
YKK zippers, and one of those failing zippers is the replacement zipper for a
previous YKK zipper that failed. All 3 are different types of YKK brand
zipper.

~~~
killjoywashere
It is almost inevitable that the largest manufacturer has the largest number
of failures. But your anecdote gives me no sense of their failure rate, and
certainly tells me nothing about their failure rate in the context of other
manufacturer failure rates.

~~~
kortilla
3 zippers for a single person is really high, even if they are the largest
manufacturer.

~~~
darkerside
Almost like it might say more about the person than the manufacturer?

~~~
FDSGSG
Probably mostly speaks to the grade of the YKK zippers used in the clothes
worn by the person, there are many different grades available.

------
kitotik
If it has a zipper, and that zipper is not made by YKK, it is disposable
garbage. This indicates the main priority in production was reducing cost.

Sadly the other way around doesn’t always work, you can still get crap
stitching and fabric on an article with YKK.

~~~
FDSGSG
What about Lampo, Raccagni or RiRi? You even see high end brands using ancient
talon zippers.

------
rlonstein
Apropos, I recommend reading [https://www.amazon.com/Travels-T-Shirt-Global-
Economy-Charac...](https://www.amazon.com/Travels-T-Shirt-Global-Economy-
Characters/dp/1118950143)

------
hmottestad
I’ve found one simple marker for quality t-shirts. The top-stitch.

This is a stitch on the front of the neck that keeps the little bit of fabric
in the back laying flat.

Tried to find some pictures of it online, but was harder to google than I
thought.

------
brailsafe
My flannel shirts have never lasted me long and it's getting irritating! A
standard flannel is now slmehow at around $60 to $100 cad or usd and I have no
idea whether it'll shrink, pill, rip easily

------
lazyjones
My #1 quality metric for clothes is: can it be washed at 60℃ according to the
label? (140℉).

It's not so easy to find suitable garments, but they're always much better
than average.

------
Fr0styMatt88
Can anyone here recommend some high-quality men's clothing stores in
Australia?

------
readhn
What a bunch of BS. The author is ignoring elephant in the room - cost of
honestly paid labor and cost of good quality materials. You cant make quality
things using "slave" labor (made in "3rd world countries" for a few cents/buck
an hour). Good stuff is a product of love. There is no love in made in china
goods.

The bottom line with clothing these days is that most of it is made using
"slave" underpaid labor and more often than not - cheap materials.

If you want quality - you will have to pay up. (and no, if something is super
expensive it does not mean its high quality! you have to know what and from
who you are buying!)

Case in point mens shoes. A good pair of shoes these days (made with quality
materials and using honestly paid labor) - will cost you $200-300-400 and up.
(American, British, Italian or Spanish shoe makers) This is basically the
floor of the good shoe market today. Thats just the reality. If you want to
pay your people honest wages and if you want to make things with quality
materials (and im not talking any ultra luxury here, just good every day
stuff) - you will have to price your product accordingly. there is no way
around it.

You can not talk about quality of anything without discussing people who made
the product.

~~~
notfashion
Even very expensive designer clothing may still be made in exploitative
conditions. See [https://qz.com/1397139/italian-workers-are-earning-near-
swea...](https://qz.com/1397139/italian-workers-are-earning-near-sweatshop-
wages-to-make-luxury-clothes-in-their-homes/)

~~~
readhn
as i said "and no, if something is super expensive it does not mean its high
quality!"

you have to know who you are buying from. yes, majority of big labels these
days use cheap outsourced labor.

Italy - is importing cheap asian workers, so yes you have to watch out.
Basically know who you are buying from. There are plenty of businesses who
still value their workers and their products.

~~~
notfashion
Valuing workers is separate from valuing quality. I don't think the article I
linked to implies in any way that the exploited workers are doing inferior
work.

