
Windows 10: The Next Chapter [video] - finnh
http://news.microsoft.com/windows10story/
======
sirkneeland
I don't know, but this whole "I refuse to consider [product X] before I've
even seen it" thing doesn't strike me as the sort of open-minded, objective
attitude a good engineer should have. Great for Apple's bottom line, though.

I've gone back and forth between Mac and Windows boxes for years. I have a
MacBook Pro and a Dell XPS 12 with Win8.1 and I use them interchangeably.
They're both perfectly usable and both have their pros and cons.

I want to see what Microsoft has to offer--especially curious to see if they
can leverage their desktop size to resuscitate their mobile platform.

~~~
turnip1979
Curious what you use as a Terminal replacement in Windows? I tried cygwin a
few years ago and it was painful. Windows Powershell isn't standard enough for
me.

~~~
vertex-four
> Windows Powershell isn't standard enough for me.

Then Windows isn't standard enough for you. The traditional UNIX toolset _does
not work_ on Windows - something as simple as chmod, or the concept of files
being owned by users, works entirely differently. Things as simple as mv have
entirely different semantics - there isn't a guaranteed atomic file rename
function (well, actually, looks like one was implemented in Windows Vista...
which doesn't work on network drives, including redirected folders which are
used to map your home directory transparently to a network drive in many
companies).

In administering Windows systems, practically nothing is implemented as text
mangling, so text mangling isn't a core part of the system's interface.

Once you've thrown out all the stuff that works differently or can't be
implemented reliably, you don't have a terrible amount left. If you want some
subset of the GNU toolset for development, there's MSYS and a few other
projects.

Or you could learn how to use a system that doesn't buy into the UNIX
monoculture, which has been a detriment to operating system research and
development for the past couple of decades.

~~~
phaemon
> Or you could learn how to use a system that doesn't buy into the UNIX
> monoculture

My first computer was a ZX Spectrum. It didn't run UNIX.

> which has been a detriment to operating system research and development for
> the past couple of decades.

You're claiming that having access to free Operating Systems, with free tools
and access to the source for them all has _stifled_ OS research? That claim
appears nonsensical on the face of it. Care to expand?

~~~
vertex-four
> Care to expand?

Certainly. It's not access to free OSes that's the problem - it's that both
the major one and most of the minor ones are derivatives of either UNIX or the
POSIX specification. (Haiku is the only semi-popular one which attempts to do
something different.) There's little chance of stepping outside that box in
any major way.

For example, a slowly-moving research project of mine is to build a fully
functional OS that uses capabilities, per-application sandboxing, a generic
object store instead of a filesystem, a built-in intra- and inter-computer RPC
mechanism, standardised configuration (from the network admin level
downwards), and a powerful Smalltalk-based GUI for managing all of this, on
the idea that today's information workers need better ability to manage and
script their system, including building new applications out of existing ones.
The Linux ecosystem doesn't provide a meaningful, standardised interface for
doing so for many office-y applications or complex formats.

While you could theoretically layer all this on top of POSIX (and in fact,
that's the first implementation of my system), you are at the same time
throwing away 99% of POSIX, and you are highly expected to maintain
compatibility with apps for the system you're building on top of - which
likely don't fit in with your system's design, and doesn't encourage the
creation of applications for, or modification of existing applications to fit,
your new system design.

This sort of greenfield R&D is what's been missing. Even universities are
primarily stuck getting POSIX running on various kernel architectures,
avoiding the topic of _OS_ design entirely. You could point towards Android as
a counter-example, but that's not a desktop OS - its primary competitors were
proprietary OSes made by the smartphone vendors, and it's still not really
capable of being used as a primary OS.

~~~
phaemon
> it's that both the major one and most of the minor ones are derivatives of
> either UNIX or the POSIX specification.

How is that the problem? How does that stop you from doing anything?

> you are at the same time throwing away 99% of POSIX, and you are highly
> expected to maintain compatibility with apps for the system you're building
> on top of

Expected by whom? Who has any expectations for your own personal research
project? I'd fully expect an experimental OS not to have any apps at all,
besides basic utilities.

I'm not going to point to any OS as a counter example, because you haven't
made clear how the existence of any other UNIX-like OS prevents you from doing
anything. If you want to do "greenfield R&D" then go ahead. No-one is stopping
you.

~~~
vertex-four
It doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything, but the result is that non-
POSIX OSes will never take off in any meaningful way, therefore research is
close to worthless.

~~~
phaemon
New POSIX OSes won't take off in a meaningful way either (whatever
'meaningful' means). It's nothing to do with it being POSIX or not, it's just
difficult to get traction for a new OS. Linux faced exactly the same issue
when it was released.

But why do you need it to take off in a meaningful way? Open Source software
doesn't need a particular market share to keep going, it just needs a certain
absolute number of people (which differs depending on the software). Is having
a small committed core of users not enough for you? If your research is truly
useful then that number will grow over time.

Unless you're talking about a commercial OS, in which case Microsoft is your
obstacle, not POSIX. Good luck with that.

------
anindyabd
Free upgrades for Windows 7 and Windows 8 users -- wow, that's different from
the Microsoft of old. Clearly they've decided that they've got enough in the
coffers to be not as concerned about losing money in the short term to get
some good PR.

~~~
uptown
When they say "free for the first year" is that "free to upgrade" during the
first year it's available, or "free for one year" then you'll pay a
subscription to continue using the operating system after that year?

~~~
dmunoz
Here is the slide from the Verge livecast [0]. It's followed with this
quotation

"Once a device is upgraded to Windows 10, we'll be keeping it current for the
supported lifetime for the device."

I'm not sure what they mean by "lifetime for the device", but I think it means
you have a year to decide to upgrade to Windows 8, and then it'll be supported
for as long as your device is working.

[0]
[http://d35lb3dl296zwu.cloudfront.net/uploads/photo/image/191...](http://d35lb3dl296zwu.cloudfront.net/uploads/photo/image/19163/microsoft-
windows-10-live-verge-_0221.jpg)

~~~
ineedtosleep
That was my interpretation as well, however, people who build their own
computers should probably look in detail what the license entails as it may be
like Windows 8 System Builder Edition. AFAIK, the System Builder Edition is
bound to your computer's motherboard and any changes will make Windows
unusable.

------
czk
For anyone having trouble with the stream, you can watch it in VLC if you open
network stream with the following URL: [http://msstudios-
live2.wm.llnwd.net/msstudios_live2](http://msstudios-
live2.wm.llnwd.net/msstudios_live2) It doesn't have the buffering issues that
I see using the flash player.

~~~
knd775
I don't get any video from this for some reason.

------
CardenB
Call me stubborn, but I just can't see going back to windows after switching
to os x. People complain about bugs a lot lately, but I haven't experienced
any. Windows just feels like an uphill battle to do everything I want to these
days. I feel like a start button and multiple workspaces won't really change
that.

However, I'm all for new tech so I want there to be room for everyone. I'm
excited to see the future of windows.

~~~
berberous
Agreed. I recently started using Windows 7 Enterprise for work, and I'm
surprised at how often I need to reboot to make things work or to avoid
slowdowns. Granted, that's usually due to Adobe and Java hanging, but even
killing those processes in task manager won't fix it. Maybe there's a better
solution, but I just reboot.

I don't think I've ever had to reboot OS X for similar reasons.

~~~
cwbrandsma
I've been running on a Mac for the last 2 years, after 20'ish years of Windows
work. At this point I'm 50/50\. There are things I HATE about both system.

* Window management in OSX is a complete joke (docking and sizing), I've lost all faith that Apple will ever get that right. * The shell and terminal support is better in OSX (yes, powershell is there, but not by default, and the standard DOS shell sucks) * I have to reboot both systems once a month to keep them working. Others disagree here, but I find OSX no more stable than Windows. * OSX Sound Drivers (WTF! -- I constantly lose sound support on my MacBook Pro) * Microsoft is much faster at fixing issues than Apple (I have a bunch of long standing OSX bugs that span multiple versions, and a couple of new ones with the current release) * I no longer feel the love for Apple hardware. Every iteration is made harder to upgrade than the last. * The Apple App Store is so much better than Microsoft's Store. * Safari is IE: they are both browsers you should only use to download a better browser.

~~~
ashark
>Safari is IE: they are both browsers you should only use to download a better
browser.

Safari's great for battery life. I've switched from Chrome for that reason.
Judging from the system-wide beachballs and frequent fan spin-ups for no
obvious reason back when I used Firefox, I assume it would be even worse than
Chrome.

Its developer tools aren't that different from Chrome's, either, and it's got
a decent selection of plugins. I have Chrome installed and occasionally use
it, but close it ASAP.

------
Igglyboo
I know it will never happen but if I could have a native full featured bash or
zsh environment on Windows I would switch back in a heartbeat. And no, Cygwin
is not a replacement.

~~~
loarabia
Can you tell me more about the native or full featured bash or zsh environment
you're interested in? Do you want inbox bash/zsh? Do you want native
coreutils? Do you want the full POSIX API layer? something else? Also, can you
tell me about your workflow or what you envision it to be in this environment?

I ask because I work in the console space at Microsoft and am keen on
understanding the features you're looking for and what scenarios you're
attempting to satisfy.

We also have a user voice going where we've been fortunate enough to gather a
lot of passionate feedback.

[https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/266908-command-
prompt/cat...](https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/266908-command-
prompt/category/87960-cmd)

~~~
diminoten
I want what Cygwin gives me, for starters, so POSIX API (I think).

I don't want to have to relearn commands that I know work in *nix land, is the
big point -- I don't want to have to remember to change the directions of my
slashes, for example.

I'm not an expert, merely a user, in this space, so I can't really articulate
precisely what it is I want in the best terms possible, but I can say I get a
lot closer to where I want to be with Cygwin than I get with anything that
comes native on Windows.

~~~
loarabia
Good feedback. When you work in Cygwin, are you doing admin type tasks, web
dev, writing console utilities, something else related to app dev?

~~~
diminoten
In systems where I find myself in the shell, I tend to prefer the shell to
everything except certain system configuration tasks (I like the shell for
things like tweaking network settings, but dislike it for things like printer
config, for example), and for actual software dev (IDEs still win for me).

Once I feel I can buy into the shell, I'll probably go all in. Until then, I
_try_ to use Cygwin to avoid having to switch to a *nix box when I just want
to use a simple admin utility or maybe test something out in the Python REPL,
but otherwise I just tend to switch when I want to spend a work day on
something.

------
mnglkhn2
Now it makes sense that Google just announced that they're stopping Glass from
being sold retail. They did not want to have their device compared to the new
product from MS. Actually I see this new device as more prone to success than
the Glass. These devices are competing for the same markets: healthcare,
education and entertainment. And here Glass is somewhat underpowered.

------
kpeel
Free update to Windows 10 for anyone running Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows
Phone 8.1. Awesome.

~~~
eps
Includes comprehensive always-on phone-home telemtrics. Twice as awesome.

~~~
nhayden
Meaning Microsoft is collecting usage data from users of Windows 10?

~~~
daigoba66
That's been part of Windows (opt-in at least) for years.

------
Zekio
WMW format direct link. [http://msstudios-
live2.wm.llnwd.net/msstudios_live2](http://msstudios-
live2.wm.llnwd.net/msstudios_live2) NO buffering problems, but only around
360-480p. but better than no buffering if you have a problem with the
buffering :)

------
rehemiau
Windows Phone 10 apps seem less convenient than in Windows Phone 7. Some of
the gestures gone, hamburger menus instead... And why are the app menu buttons
on top instead of bottom?

I understand that they want to have the same codebase on all three screen
sizes, but simple 'responsive' approach is not perfect.

The WP10 platforms needs to make the best of its advantages, not become the
second android mess where every app has different UX philosophy. MS should
provide gudelines for tailoring apps to WP, but srsly atm they need to fix
these office apps before releasing them.

------
larrybolt
I love that they are bringing something like Cortana to the desktop. Ever
since I saw Her [1] I wanted something like that, something that takes away
the need to look at my smartphone when I receive an email to know what's it
about or who it's from. A smartwatch seems to be going in the right direction
for that kind of things, but still, it's not the same as being reminded about
the weather when you are on the point leaving the door instead of having to
look up the weather yourself.

[1]:
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1798709/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1798709/)

------
dandare
I recently switched to Mac after two decades on Win simply because decent Win
ultrabook costs 50% more than comparable MacBook Pro. In other words it's not
only software problem that Microsoft is facing.

~~~
jpetersonmn
This is exactly my situation too. When it was time for a new laptop, the
windows machines with nice screens were way more than a MacBook pro. So far I
can't say I'm in love with it. I don't think it's as stable as my windows 7
computers are that I work on for my dayjob. (I can't even remember the last
time I needed to reboot or froze up on my windows 7 boxes.)

~~~
Igglyboo
HiDPi support is also a second class citizen on Windows. Many applications are
still designed for 1080p and under, Linux is even worse. OS X seems to get it
mostly right.

~~~
wlesieutre
It's even worse if you have one normal resolution screen and one high. I want
my primary screen to be the 1080p one (because that's where games run), so
Windows renders things on the 4K screen at normal resolution and upscales
them. It looks _baaad_.

------
CmonDev
Original
thread:[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8922578](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8922578)

------
purephase
Holograms? Who did they buy that gave them that kind of traction. Seems like
the corner that Oculus had been gunning for.

~~~
pearle
I think MS research has been working on this for years. I watched a video a
while back about them doing this sort of thing in their labs.

~~~
vowelless
I think Steven Bathiche has been doing this kind of stuff for a long time,
indeed.

------
scotty79
I'm using Windows 10 tech preview as my main system and it's absolutely
awesome, clean, responsive and fast. At least compared to Windows 7, 8.1, KDE,
XP, Yosemite, Maverics, Gnome ... in order of descending utility.

~~~
wanda
Desktop environments aren't operating systems.

And utility? If I were to rank operating systems according to my own
subjective assessment of utility, Windows would be top. Because I develop on
.NET to earn a living.

I would still under no conditions argue that Windows is a better operating
system than a unix-based OS.

C# is more useful to me than C++, Erlang or Go but that doesn't mean I think
C# is better than these languages. The fork is not worse than the knife
overall. It's better for picking things up but it's not very good for cutting.

Can't say I'm going to take the words of somebody using a tech preview OS as
their daily driver seriously, either.

~~~
scotty79
Heh. You were sort of right. They just broke it. :-) New build is just
horrible. Java doesn't work and they've butchered start menu and task bar.

Fortunately they've left by mistake an option to roll back to previous build.
Which I promptly used to restore my wonderful Windows 10. Then I just as
promptly I disabled automatic updates.

Maybe in few months from now I'll try latest Windows 10 build in a VM to see
if they backpedaled a bit from the insanity they've served in this last build.

------
davbeer
I find it amusing how almost everybody in the audience runs a mac :)

------
nothrabannosir
OT: I feel for this guy; the only people looking at him are the photographers.

I'm no fan of putting blame with the audience, but I'm glad not be presenting
in his place...

------
burn
This is definitely an interesting announcement. I'm happy that they are
offering free upgrades to all users 7.1 and up. I believe this is a really
smart move.

------
forgotAgain
Having the video not watchable is a large fail for a company that's trying to
sell infrastructure services.

------
fishercs
Seems to be quite a bit of buffering on my 100 meg connection, anyone else
having issues watching this?

~~~
Zekio
yeah, i have a whole lot that aswell, might be more people watching than
anticipated

~~~
jbigelow76
It's pretty much unwatchable for me at work as well, way too much buffering.
Somebody on the Azure Media Services team is probably going to get an earful
afterward.

------
disdev
Did Microsoft hit the "jump the shark" moment with holograms?

~~~
keithwarren
Jump the shark? Seriously? This is probably the best thing I have seen them do
in a decade.

------
snomad
MS Surface Hub could be fantastic in education.

------
_almosnow
So far, everything looks like
[https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2385/1895583251_f102d4324d.jpg](https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2385/1895583251_f102d4324d.jpg)

But I hope they saved the best for the end.

~~~
_almosnow
... well, it's over now and nothing.

------
amaks
Impossible to watch, video stream always stutters

~~~
amaks
Nice, looks like some folks got offended by this comment. Wonder why:-)

------
amaks
Wow, they added background images to Windows Phone.

------
wanda
Yay, more crap for me to turn off.

------
wheelzr
Kind of hard to overlook the fact the video is encoded using flash. Not real
promising.

