
The company behind Adblock Plus is acquiring micropayment service Flattr - walterbell
https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/05/adblock-plus-acquires-flattr/
======
tuna-piano
-I feel strongly that the mental friction of any payment is the main issue. No matter the UI, payment model or price, micropayment services can't escape forcing mental anguish on the user with the question "is this worth it?"

-This is why the unlimited Netflix / Spotify model is so good. Sure, the content owners could get more revenue from the heaviest consumers with a pay-per-click model, but only at the expense of all the sparse users would rather just pay a monthly fee than have to think "is this click worth it?" every time they want to consume additional content.

-I'll predict that within the next few years, the major publishers will come together and form their own subscription company with a revenue share similar to Spotify. Not sure why it's taking so long, but that day can't come soon enough for me. Why are the publishers letting AdBlock Plus and other potential startups start a business that they could own?

Here's my thought process:

-People read tons of different publications.

-Publications generally prefer subscription fees to ad revenue

-People don't want to deal with micropayments

-People don't want to pay for (or manage) multiple subscriptions

-Giving away your product for free (purposely or with weak paywalls) and asking for donations is probably not a long term sustainable strategy.

If the WaPo had 1 $25 subscriber and the WSJ had 1 $25 subscriber, the total
industry revenue is $50, but each consumer only gets half the content
(although much of the daily news content is roughly identical). If the WSJ and
WaPo shared subscribers, the consumers would get double the content while the
industry costs would stay the same. When consumers see additional value for
their subscription dollars, they are more likely to sign up, increasing the
number of potential customers. The industry will lose the revenue of the big
spenders, who subscribe to both WaPo and WSJ... but I don't think many of
those are digital subscriptions, and I think that's likely to be offset by the
torrent of new customers.

~~~
dudus
I was looking (for research purposes only/for a friend/by mistake/I was bored)
at the model used by the porn industry nowadays. I've never paid for porn, and
I believe most people haven't either, but they have an incredibly efficient
model. Instead of going for 1 shady website with some porn videos, you can
signup for a porn network (brazzers, RealityKings, etc) that contains multiple
smaller website as well. So for one flat monthly price you get multiple sites,
each with a different theme to their porn content.

The free sites (pornhub, redtube and alikes) around use a different model
though, where they make money from a side business of real time video chat,
where you can tip the model with coins you buy in bulk, like a mobile game
where you buy in-game currency.

I couldn't avoid making a comparison to the publisher business. Porn is just
so much more efficient and advanced.

I would probably never pay a $5 subscription for WSJ, NYT or WaPo. But a $20
that gives me access to any news site online or even a $15 that gives me
access to a good set of them now that's something I can wrap my head around.

~~~
dmihal
It's always weird to compare "mainstream" businesses to the porn industry, but
they've shown themselves to consistently be ahead of the curve with
technology.

------
sfilargi
I don't think privacy and business mix. Personally, I have switched to uBlock
Origin.

~~~
Flammy
Agreed. If you haven't been following adblocking news in the last few years,
Adblock Plus has been charging advertisers to get on a whitelist, as well as a
few other less-than-ideal moves from a privacy perspective. There has also
been issues with performance impact, which uBlock Origin seems to pretty
consistently beat Adblock Plus on.

uBlock Origin is my recommendation as well.

Links:

[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublock-
origin/cjpa...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublock-
origin/cjpalhdlnbpafiamejdnhcphjbkeiagm?hl=en)

[https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ublock-
origin...](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ublock-origin/)

[https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/ublock/](https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/ublock/)

~~~
Rainymood
From a hustler perspective its genius. People install your add-on to block ads
and then you SELL advertisers the right to get whitelisted. Genius move.

That being said, I also switched to uBlock and I owe Adblock plus nothing.

~~~
Flammy
Yup, and not new... In the tech space, that is what Yelp does (Pay $, suppress
bad reviews). I'm sure there are other examples out there...

~~~
mifreewil
I don't think this is true. This may have happened in the past, but I don't
think they do this, at least currently.

[https://www.yelp.com/advertiser_faq](https://www.yelp.com/advertiser_faq)

~~~
Flammy
It may no longer be happening. Googling "Yelp extortion" will get you plenty
of news hits, but this may have caused them to change their practices.

~~~
Throwaway23412
It's actually extraordinary how many "Yelp extortion" claims I've seen without
a single bit of proof. It's not at all difficult to record a telephone
conversation with a Yelp representative.

I've seen some thoughts about this:

\- Some of the businesses claiming "Yelp extortion" actually deserve their bad
reviews.

\- Some of the businesses claiming "Yelp extortion" posted fake positive
reviews. Unbeknownst to them, Yelp bots automatically detected and removed the
fake reviews. Later, after rejecting a call from a Yelp rep asking to
advertise, the business owner decides to check their Yelp page and sees that
their fake reviews are gone, incorrectly deducing that Yelp is extorting them.

~~~
dhimes
_It 's not at all difficult to record a telephone conversation with a Yelp
representative._

I was at Radio Shack just yesterday looking for a way to do this. They didn't
have a solution. Also, it's illegal where I am unless I advertise it.

So if I were to get a call _right now_ from somebody and needed to record it
I'm not sure what to do. Any suggestions?

~~~
Throwaway23412
I personally use an app called TapeACall. You could also just put your call on
loudspeaker and record it with another device.

------
Larrikin
My issue with flattr was that you actively had to tip. It would be nice to
have a service that simply divided up a monthly allowance based on time and
page views.

Maybe even make it a white list service that ask at the end of the month which
sites you'd like to contribute and a notification if you have not black listed
a site but keep saying you don't want to contribute.

~~~
pdelbarba
It would be great to decentralize what is already done by Youtube Red and
Spotify. I'm honestly surprised that something like that doesn't already
exist. Allow sites to register against your payment service and then it keeps
track of your visits and at the end of the month, shows you a report and
distributes funds.

Edit: another cool facet to this idea would be that you don't have to hound
end users to join, the content providers that sign up will do that for you :)

Edit round 2: looks like brave.com already does exactly this.

~~~
cmdrfred
I'd like to see something that seamlessly ties a voting system (thumbs
up/thumbs down) with a payment system and a social media aspect. Charge a
dollar per thumbs up on a video, if a video has lots of thumbs ups than that
means lots of people paid to say "this content is good" increasing the
likelihood that it is actually good. All of the money can go to the content
creator and the aggregator can make it's money with advertising.

~~~
CaptSpify
It would also help with downvote-brigading if it cost something to vote it
down.

~~~
c_prompt
One other self-serving post: that's the way valME.io works. [1]

[1] [https://valme.io/c/gettingstarted/faq/nqqqs/why-does-it-
cost...](https://valme.io/c/gettingstarted/faq/nqqqs/why-does-it-cost-1-karma-
to-upvote-but-2-to-downvote)

------
Animats
As I've pointed out before, all the enthusiasm about micropayments is from
people who want to _collect_ micropayments. There's no demand from people who
want to _send_ micropayments.

There's a trend towards charging for timeliness. The movie industry would like
an online model where streaming movies cost most shortly after release, then
decline in price. This fits the "bargain bin at the video rental store" model.

This works for Bloomberg, but they think minutes where the movie industry
thinks months. "Before it's here, it's on the Bloomberg terminal". That's the
whole pitch of their financial news-gathering operation. Pay $25K a year and
get the info a few minutes sooner. It's worth it for traders.

~~~
gambiting
I work in the games industry and you would be surprised how often we get
feedback for games which don't have any micropayments and which cost full $50
price - "please make a way to unlock everything quickly for a fee". I don't
know if it's because people are so used to it because of stupid free-to-play
games on mobiles or what.

------
TorKlingberg
I use uBlock Origin, but I hope they can make something good of this. Flattr
is a good idea, but it never gained critical mass. Patreon is fine for
hobbyists with dedicated fans, but not really for websites you only visit
every now and then. Someone will eventually figure out "Netflix for
News/Webstuff" so I support anyone trying.

~~~
chaostheory
[https://brave.com](https://brave.com) is another attempt at this. You can
fill a 'wallet' and have Brave distribute it to publishers

EDIT: Brave also focuses on privacy and ad blocking. It's also already
released.

~~~
problems
Brave does a lot more than just that though - it's a full fledged browser
built on Electron. On desktop I found it lacking, but on mobile it's an
excellent option. A good compromise between the UI responsiveness of Chrome
and the extensibility and privacy features of Firefox for Android.

~~~
campbelltown
I finally bit the bullet and downloaded it. It's a pretty seamless transition
from using chrome. I'm really impressed.

------
astrodust
AdBlock is utterly useless these days. It doesn't block much. Some of the most
astonishingly stupid ads from Taboola are let through as part of their
"trusted" program.

~~~
GunlogAlm
You can disable the displaying trusted ads, no?

~~~
slig
Why bother? Just install some extension that has your best interest in mind.

------
fencepost
I could see this being really good for them if they can get content creators
interested independent of their own subscription options.

There are sites that I go to 2-4 times a month (e.g. the Guardian, Wired, The
Atlantic) that I'd love to support, but I'm not motivated enough to subscribe
to the more expensive ones at $70/year (Guardian), $52/year (Wired, $1/week
for the website with adblocker and it's separate from their print+tablet
subscriptions), etc. The Atlantic at $24/year is a much more palatable option.

I sometimes feel bad about not being able to support them with ad revenues,
but these days I regard even the better ad networks as unmarked minefields.

~~~
brilliantcode
I like good investigative journalism and frustrated I can't pay to support it.

For instance, WSJ endlessly sticks paywall for recycled news.

Some journalists risk their lives for the sake of jouranlism.

[https://magazine.atavist.com/he-always-had-a-dark-
side](https://magazine.atavist.com/he-always-had-a-dark-side)

This was posted a while back on HN and we talked about how to support such
journalists that take actual risks which needs to be rewarded.

~~~
snthd
How about the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (Panama
Papers)?

[https://donate.icij.org/](https://donate.icij.org/) or
[https://www.gofundme.com/icijorg2017](https://www.gofundme.com/icijorg2017)

~~~
brilliantcode
The real problem with the panama papers incident is that it's not clear
whether people on that list have done wrong or anything interesting.

Clearly, it was a way to hide away ill gotten cash for some people but it also
has legitimate usage. I disagree the way it attempts to paint anyone who's
name shows up in the panama papers as a criminal.

Lastly, I want to pay for journalism that weaves together a highly interesting
and entertaining story. I think part of the talent is not just telling the
facts but weaving a good story that invokes emotional response.

Panama papers did not meet those criteria so it's not as interesting as that
paul le roux story.

------
malikNF
Notice everyone is suggesting uBlock Origin. Please Please be careful
installing uBlock
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ublock/comments/32mos6/ublock_vs_ub...](https://www.reddit.com/r/ublock/comments/32mos6/ublock_vs_ublock_origin/)

You should be installing "uBlock origin".

------
red023
Wow this is BAD this is soooo bad. The company behind Adblock Plus is very
evil.

\- "Acceptable Ads" aka extortion money enabled ads enabled by default.

\- Their CEO made money with scamming sites.

\- They used to have a url correction "feature" that added Amazon reflinks to
your urls without asking.

\- They lied back in the days about that companies can buy themselves onto the
acceptable ads list. They claimed it was community decided, that everyone can
get on it if the have no annoying ads. Then researchers found out Google payed
them 10000€ already and stuff.

\- They are connected to various German Media companies that are pushing fake
news with their ads on it ...

Fattr on the other Hand was made by this awesome guy form the pirate bay who
has a great vision for the web. The two now fit together at all if you ask me.

I switched to a Addon Fork (True Adblock or something) that had the
"Acceptable Ads" removed very early on. Then swiched to uBlock origin. So much
better in EVERY way. Guy who does it does not even want (last I checked)
donations, no BS company that wants to make money, is dishonest ... behind it.
Technical faster, much better UI, better list of filters easy checkable on one
giant page the way it should be. Can praise it enough. Seriously if you are
reading this install uBlock Origin NOW!

------
notyourwork
I have heard about Flattr a few times over the years and the idea sounds great
in theory. Personally though I have never met someone who has actually used
it, nor have I come across a place I frequent to use it.

Would love to hear from other's about their experience with it.

~~~
frik
Flattr was midly popular, then Patreon ate their cake.

Not really a fan of both, as pretty much any hobby project that tried to
monetize with Patreon lost its soul. If something is free and suddenly they
want money for it, even if there are free alternatives that usually doesn't
work. To each their own, some probably like it. I avoid reoccurring monthly
costs, where possible and prefer one time costs or just good old
advertisement.

~~~
s73ver
I cannot agree with the idea that something wanting to pay the bills has "lost
its soul".

~~~
eropple
For sure. I know a lot of Twitch streamers, and that _is a full-time goddamn
job_. Wanting to be able to pay rent off of something that a lot of people
like (and some of the streamers I know are north of 10,000 viewers when
they're on, so while they're not huge they're not small either) is not a big
ask. Yeah, there are alternatives--but if you like what you're watching and
you're not hurting for cash, throw a buck a month in the hat.

------
hkmurakami
The changes to Adblock Plus remind me of the changes to uTorrent over the
years. Both did one thing well in the beginning, and slowly feature creeped
(and added "features" undesirable to users) in a pursuit of grander ambitions.

------
eveningcoffee
The only question with micro payments is privacy. Otherwise it is no different
from the current situation where majority of people are constantly logged in
to Facebook or Google.

Having a fixed identity is not desirable from multiple perspectives. It allows
others to create a personal bubble around you and feed you with controlled
information.

When users can not be uniquely identified then Internet compares to the radio
where you can be sure that every listener will receive the same information as
you do. This means that users can not be individually deceived.

------
intrasight
I do like the idea of micropayments for content. But doing so under the
auspices of an ad-blocking tool or any client-side tool smells too much like a
protection/extortion racket. This should be handled by the publishers
themselves.

~~~
dageshi
The record industry was incapable of doing that, it had to be imposed by
outside companies. The TV/Movie industry is incapable of doing that, it has
been imposed by Netflix/Amazon e.t.c. I don't think large publishers are any
more capable of building their own micropayments system than either of the
other industries I cited, they've certainly had long enough to try.

~~~
belovedeagle
Offtopic, but "etc." isn't an acronym or initialism so shouldn't have periods
after each letter. It is an abbreviation for "et cetera".

Fun fact: historically it could also be rendered &c., because, after all, the
ampersand is itself just a ligature for "et".

~~~
dageshi
You're right, I really don't know where I picked that up from, but I think
I've been doing it for a long time now, don't think I can break the habit.

------
hartator
It feels weird that an ad blocking company is able to do aquisitions.

I really recommend checking out uBlock Origin. It's a superior technical
solution while not doing any shady deals or anything of that sort.

~~~
eric_h
It feels weird that an ad blocking company makes money by _not_ blocking ads.

------
Illniyar
Good luck to them.

I can only hope they manage to get people into paying for content and finally
giving us alternatives to the terrible Ad based business model

------
Balgair
I see a lot of people plugging uBlock Origin here. I am curious, has anyone
gone through their code to make sure they are on the up and up. Look, I'm not
saying that they are as scummy as ABP, all I am asking is if anyone knows, to
some degree of sureness, that they are not also doing these scummy things too.
The pressure on uBO must be pretty high.

~~~
bricestacey
uBlock Origin is written by gorhill, a user of much respect. I can't say I've
heard of anyone auditing its source code, but you may find reading his
comments interesting to make a better guess as to its legitimacy
[https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=gorhill](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=gorhill)
He seems pretty cool to me. And you can peruse the issues in the repo
[https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock](https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock) I'm
pretty sure you can't delete issues, so if someone found something and
reported it you should be able to find it.

~~~
Balgair
Thank you!

------
porjo
Glad to hear that Peter Sunde, Flattr's co-founder, has been able to move on
with his life and have some success elsewhere after the Pirate Bay fiasco. [0]

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Sunde#The_Pirate_Bay_tri...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Sunde#The_Pirate_Bay_trial)

------
cpeterso
Micropayment tipping and subscriptions seem like features that should be part
of the browser with standardized DOM APIs. Mozilla considered a website
subscription feature back in 2014 called "Subscribe2Web".

[https://air.mozilla.org/subscribe2web/](https://air.mozilla.org/subscribe2web/)

------
LeicaLatte
The tip jar has to be the laziest of all the business models out there.

~~~
treehau5
And yet how many of us waiters, waitresses, bartenders, baristas, cashiers,
valets, etc have paid the bills because of the gratitude of others. It can
work, especially when combined with social pressure to do so.

~~~
degenerate
It works, but neither party likes it. If tipping can be avoided, it will be.
Ex: UBER

~~~
treehau5
I hate that Uber does not allow you to tip. I have had drivers who deserve way
more than what they give them, and then I've had some drivers who deserve to
have their licenses revoked. When I learned that Lyft allows you to specify a
tip, I switched in an instant. Never missed Uber.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
I wanted to switch to Lyft but stuck with Uber when I found out that Lyft has
a tip option. It's not that they aren't great or deserve more money, it's just
that I don't want to be a party to their employment arrangement. I really
dislike tipping and would prefer that the product be priced correctly to begin
with. I still do so as social protocol dictates, but eliminating the exchange
of money entirely is probably the most valuable thing Uber provides for me.

~~~
treehau5
> I really dislike tipping and would prefer that the product be priced
> correctly to begin with.

I disagree with this in part -- I will agree with you that most of these
people deserve to be paid more regardless, but I disagree in the sense that
they all be paid uniformly. Better service should get a better tip. If that's
priced in, I have no choice in the matter, I am paying the same price for
subpar or lackluster service. This would make me change services as a whole
rather than just chalk it up to I had a bad driver. Allowing me to tip based
on the level of service I receive is a form of recourse for the customer in
the event of a terrible experience. It's also an incentive to the driver to
perform better.

------
manigandham
We tried something similar. Automatic adblocker with monthly subscription -
block ads and distribute money by time spent per domain. Then bundle it as a
simple "content" add-on on your ISP plan.

Issue was getting either publishers or ISPs to pay attention - even though the
math came out to it being more profitable for both in most situations.

------
brilliantcode
People are still using Adblock Plus? uBlock is the superior option because I
can trust them not to sell out like ADP did.

~~~
s73ver
Can you? Where's that guarantee? Where's the service agreement between you and
uBlock?

------
vit05
It is not entirely clear how they will measure engagement and divide the
budget among publishers. And how much is similar to Medium's new strategy? I
prefer the strategy of Patreon and the new strategy of Spotify. Receive new
content first when you pay something.

------
k__
They need to arm against Braves BAT and uBlock Origin.

But it seems to me that BAT is the future.

------
anotheryou
There wher some scandals about them, no? Poor flattr.

------
sciencesama
it means paid ads are coming back !!

