
Found hidden safe, should we crack? - js2
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=295877
======
salex89
A lot of people suggesting just to forget about it. Jeez, I couldn't sleep
properly until I found out what's inside. I would personally be more
disappointed in myself for ignoring it than opening it and finding nothing. At
least I would have a safe.

On the other hand, I would try cracking it myself, for fun. If not, call
someone.

~~~
johmue
at this point I am so invested in it that I can already not sleepy over it!

------
ragebol
Haha, recently bought a new home which also had a safe embedded in the
concrete under the flooring.Place was apparently owned by a dude who had been
in jail, a few owners back, to add to the 'story'. Key was present but not the
code, which would be useless as the know was rusted in place and wouldn't
move.

In the end we drilled a hole through the top plate (did not take very long but
made a lot of noise) and stuck a little camera through to find it was empty
(as far as we could see).

Cemented over it, new floor over that, left as a surprise to future owners.

~~~
Consultant32452
It would've been fun to put some piece of treasure for the next adventurer.
Maybe a time capsule or even a single silver coin (only about $20) would
really delight someone. This has me thinking I should do something like this
in my house.

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cranium
I don't know if the mechanism is loose enough to accept multiple combinations
as valid inputs but it can drastically reduce the search space. For instance,
if the safe also accepts the numbers before and after the correct one the
search space is divided by 3^[number of 'digits'].

Feynman was famous for "cracking" safes in his time (more like cleverly trying
all possibilities):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Waw11zhaKSk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Waw11zhaKSk)

~~~
tomxor
I think you mean de Bruijn sequence [0], can be hard to reach via search if
you don't know the name.

> a de Bruijn sequence of order n on a size-k alphabet A is a cyclic sequence
> in which every possible length-n string on A occurs exactly once as a
> substring (i.e., as a contiguous subsequence). Such a sequence is denoted by
> B(k, n) and has length k^n, which is also the number of distinct substrings
> of length n on A; _de Bruijn sequences are therefore optimally short_.

That is, it reduces the total number of input symbols required to traverse all
permutations from (k^n)*n to (k^n)+n-1. i.e each sequence attempt takes only
one extra input symbol regardless of the code length (n) or alphabet (k).

Once I learned this (actually originally ended up figuring out for k=2 since
google failed to reveal this page), I started to notice the critical
difference between short 4 digit permutation keypads on doors: those that
accept a continuous stream of input characters without a reset are vulnerable
to this shortened brute force sequence; whereas those that require you delimit
sequences with a separate key are not.

Specifically: a non-delimited 4 digit decimal keypad takes at most 10003 input
chars to crack, whereas a delimited one with a reset button takes 50000 (~5
times more, n+1 for the reset button). I'm not sure if continuous form are
merely cheaper or the delimited form are simply newer and lock makers a little
wiser?

[edit]

I suppose in the worst case for the non-delimited 4 digit keypads, if you also
figure out the subset of alphabet used (i.e UV light button trick), then it
reduces to (n^n)+n-1 = 259 input symbols !! except it adds the requirement of
generating the sequence dynamically... but that's hardly difficult for
n=k=4... and if any buttons are used more than once it reduces k further! e.g
if a button is used twice then (4^3)+4-1 = 67!

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Bruijn_sequence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Bruijn_sequence)

~~~
tomxor
Yes i'm replying to myself.

> I'm not sure if continuous form are merely cheaper or the delimited form are
> simply newer and lock makers a little wiser?

Found this article [0] on exactly the same thing. Except he goes further to
ask the difficulty added by simply increasing the alphabet by one (without
adding delimiter key, and remaining vulnerable to de brujin sequences) vs
adding a delimiter key. Answer: It depends on whether n > k.

The reduced alphabet attack works equally on both forms as far as I can see.

[0] [https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2019/10/22/hacking-with-de-
br...](https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2019/10/22/hacking-with-de-bruijn/)

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imgabe
Oh god, it's the Reddit safe drama all over again. I'm not falling for it this
time.

~~~
jandrese
The Reddit safe drama was predated by Geraldo Rivera's attempt to find
treasure in Al Capone's vault.

------
patsplat
Once I lived in an apartment with a safe that had been locked open. It was a
giant, heavy thing too large to move. The owners simply renovated the
apartment around it.

Eventually I got bored and started playing with it. Since it was locked open,
it was possible to start taking apart the door from the inside. Once the
tumblers were exposed, I figured out the combination.

It was tremendous fun!

If anyone here is in a similar situation, I recommend cracking the safe.
Building the robot seems like a nice bit of mechanical engineering:

[https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/building-a-safe-
crackin...](https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/building-a-safe-cracking-
robot/all)

------
gadders
Tangentially related, this was a good article in the Atlantic about a guy who
makes his living opening safes:

[https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/12/profe...](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/12/professional-
safecracker-reveals-his-craft/577897/)

He's got a good instagram page as well:
[https://www.instagram.com/santore_safecracker/](https://www.instagram.com/santore_safecracker/)

~~~
majos
More than tangential! For those on the fence, the article is fun. It has some
technical details about the actual mechanics of getting inside safes but gets
a little into the psychology of it as well. For example, families cracking the
safe of a deceased loved one may be both excited, sad, and afraid of what
they’ll find (secrets are like that).

------
d--b
I bought an apartment and even though there was no safe, I was tempted to
remove the flooring everywhere just to see what was beneath it... I wouldn't
last a second without opening that safe. I'd probably try and make the robot
myself though :-)

~~~
thathndude
Same. I own a 100+ year old home, and I often think “what if some rich
eccentric stashed gold in the walls?!”

I’d go the brute force method, personally. That safe would get opened . . .

~~~
aidos
We own a 100 year old place that we’ve been renovating for the last 2 months
(when we took ownership). I found a (small) stash of money under the carpet
(about £200 in pristine 1990s notes).

That’s probably the best thing I found. Less savoury was the discovery that
the house was, in fact, owned by rats. They were everywhere. There was a
lovely little nest made from a bag of straw and lined with a newspaper from
1938. They’d eaten into the expansion tanks in the loft so they had a fresh
supply of water.

~~~
checkyoursudo
Based on the couple of houses I have purchased in my life, rodents own a lot
of things. Until you bring the cats into your life. Then the rodents don't own
as much. You still don't own anything either, because the cats become the new
owners, but they are at least preferable to the rodents. ;)

------
TwoBit
90% chance it's empty. Only way it's possibly not empty is if previous owner
died.

~~~
ddxxdd
Can't that be tested by banging on the safe to try to set something in motion?

~~~
CriticalCathed
It's set into the ground and surrounded by concrete poured around it. Seems
like that might not do so good. If I wanted to cheaply find out what was in it
I would drill a small hole and use a $20 endoscope. With a Home Depot drill
rental you could be out $50 max vs 600-1000 for a locksmith.

~~~
q3k
A Home Depot drill is not going through the walls of any good safe.

Not to mention, just randomly drilling holes in a safe is a pretty bad idea,
as it might contain a glass relocker, or any other relocker you might
accidentally trigger.

~~~
Intermernet
Angle grinder and a shit load of disks will usually be sufficient. Takes a
while, but unless they have James Bond style poison gas / acid / explosives
etc embedded in the safe enclosure you will eventually make it through.

~~~
froindt
Safety tip: wear safety glasses _and_ a face shield. If the disk breaks off,
it can get nasty.

Examples:

Sewn up - [https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3319119/man-carves-open-
throat...](https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3319119/man-carves-open-throat-with-
angle-grinder-diy-accident/)

Grinding wheel still in the face -
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Welding/comments/1sq6v7/wear_your_f...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Welding/comments/1sq6v7/wear_your_faceshields_folks_theres_no_reason_that/)

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AnnoyingSwede
I looked into safe cracking a while back and it seems most of them are
sustainable to various attacks. Instead of spending a dime on what's most
likely empty safe i would make it a funny family hobby to try to break it. If
they have no use of the safe afterwards i would apply more brute force, seeing
they are not limited by time. Drilling a hole and inserting an endoscope would
be a fast solution, but would ruin the challenge of breaking it :)

------
MoD411
So now you have something to play with every night before going to sleep :D
Just try some combinations for 15 mins per day :)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
OR make a jig to try combinations, leave it running for the next two years
until it opens? Imagine the fun, solenoids and stepper motors and embedded
firmware and interface apps!

------
z3t4
When you place something in a safe it's usually important, so there is no
chance you would leave it behind when you move out. Should not take too long
to try all the combinations though.

~~~
cuu508
From the thread: 90 ^ 5 combinations, that would take quite a bit of time
doing it manually ;-)

~~~
avian
That number of combinations is not consistent with the $300 offer from the
locksmith company to have a robot try them all in "up to 3 days".

90^5 / 3 / 24 / 3600 = approx. 23000 combinations/s

That rate seems much too high, for either a mechanical lock mechanism or an
electronic keypad (which I guess would have some kind of lockout for brute
forcing anyway).

~~~
JosephRedfern
If the robot was able to try every possible combination, why would there not
be a 100% chance of success?

~~~
usrusr
The lock might be broken? Gummed up lubricants come to mind.

No idea if that's a common problem with safes, but it's pretty clear that a
safe would not have any outside maintenance access to fix a problem like that
(other than drilling it open, which seems to be routine enough given the
"yeah, we can make it usable again" offer)

~~~
jandrese
The dial spins but the locking mechanism is rusted so you can't tell when
you've hit the correct combo.

------
staz
they were a few of those on reddit at one time, always ended in disappointment

~~~
aerique
That's what I would do when leaving behind a safe in a house: lock it with a
note inside with the combination on it.

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voidpointer
If it's just about having a usable safe, it's an easy decision. They just need
to decide whether the cost for the locksmith is worth it for them to have a
usable safe...

If it's about what might be in there... shouldn't it be fairly easy to drill a
small hole (given the right type of drill) and use a miniature/endoscopic
camera to take a look?

~~~
sneak
High quality safes have glass drill plates that break when drilled and clamp
the mechanism shut.

~~~
unnouinceput
So? You still have the hole and can peek inside to see if is empty or not. And
if it's not then get it out and sledgehammer it in your garden, just for fun,
then sell it to your local junk yard.

On the other hand, that you want to use it, then design your own robot and try
all combinations. There is no time constraint since you're the owner, no need
to "finish in 3 days"

------
why-oh-why
For $900 can’t they just buy the required tool to open/break it? Sounds like a
waste of money otherwise.

~~~
huhtenberg
For $900 they can have it opened without fully destroying it.

------
js2
Link to photo of safe on page 2 of thread:

[https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=295877&star...](https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=295877&start=50#p4856165)

~~~
pengstrom
Direct link:

[https://postimg.cc/QK81zbKC](https://postimg.cc/QK81zbKC)

------
aaron695
Unknown safes are like unboxing videos for adults.

I'm surprised there's not a TV show yet.

A couple have been faked for karma but since no one has figured a way to make
money yet most seem real.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/WhatsInThisThing/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WhatsInThisThing/)

The catch is, if it has anything the person will not follow up, else someone
might claim it or the police might take away their new drug stash and weapons.

------
bauc
Is the cover plate concealing a backup key lock? Call in the lock picking
lawyer. Seems like many safes/locks don't stand up much to experienced
attacks.

~~~
devurand
I am glad I wasn't the only person thinking about LPL for this. I wonder how
much he would charge for a internet consult and recommendations on tools.
Might end up being way less than the try-every-combination-or-we-drill-it
locksmiths that are an hour awway

~~~
Consultant32452
Since this is now somewhat famous, LPL will get a lot of views for opening
this. As long as he can make a video about it, he should be able to do it free
and turn a tidy profit.

------
sopooneo
How is the min $600 and the max $1,050?

By my tally, the min is $150 for one days rt travel (assuming rt = back and
forth) \+ $300 for combo machine = $450

And max would be $150/day * 4 (3 days combo machine + 1 day drilling) \+ $300
combo machine \+ $600 drilling \- $300 credited from combo machine = $1,200

Not that this is important to the story, but it bugs me when I'm clearly
missing something.

~~~
riversflow
I think the expectation is that the locksmith would have to travel twice, once
to setup the safe cracker, and once to pick it up. ( $150 x 2 ) + $300 = $600

That said: If the safe is old and the locksmith is pretty good, there's a
legit possibility that the locksmith could just crack the safe. I had an old
safe worked on and the locksmith told me he could open it without the combo
just from the feel of the tumblers.

------
memco
I’m wondering if there’s any statistical analysis of the value of the items
inside any given safe? It would seem as this phenomena happens more and more
it would be valuable to have an aggregated list of the number of safes we’ve
tried to open and the eventual value of the contents so we can better asses
how much work to put into opening this new one.

------
cryptoquick
i've played enough RPGs to know you should be careful in case it's
boobytrapped be sure to raise your perception

------
sneak
If the safe is high quality, that is a bargain. I was quoted 5x that for a
quality tool-resistant safe.

Having a safe in one’s home is a useful thing indeed.

[https://sneak.berlin/20191119/your-money-isnt-
yours/](https://sneak.berlin/20191119/your-money-isnt-yours/)

~~~
michaelt
There's a photo of the safe at [1] revealing it's a Hayman-branded dial floor
safe, and the price of a new Hayman dial floor safe is ~$700 [2]

Getting a ~$700 safe for $600 with free installation might be a good deal -
but only if you were in the market for a $700 safe to begin with :)

[1] [https://postimg.cc/QK81zbKC](https://postimg.cc/QK81zbKC) [2]
[https://www.safesetc.com/brands-hayman-safes-hayman-floor-
sa...](https://www.safesetc.com/brands-hayman-safes-hayman-floor-safes.html)

~~~
jaclaz
Nice find.

It doesn't seem in any way a "safe" safe, it is just a very ordinary low-cost
"home" safe, it shouldn't be that dificult to open it, it looks similar to the
one that Sparkfun's Nathan Seidle founder opened up with an (el-cheapo, around
200 US$ in parts) self- made robot:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fTz2D6x20U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fTz2D6x20U)

This article details how the actual possible combinations are much less than
the theorical ones on these "home" safes:

[https://www.tomsguide.com/us/safecrack-robot-
defcon25,news-2...](https://www.tomsguide.com/us/safecrack-robot-
defcon25,news-25557.html)

And here is the full tutorial/howto:

[https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/building-a-safe-
crackin...](https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/building-a-safe-cracking-
robot/all)

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RickJWagner
BTW, this site (Bogleheads.org) is an _awesome_ financial advice site.

Lots of smart people, willing to share with you ways to live below your means
and invest the difference. Great place.

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anon9001
Here's a way to decode it:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_lkYQ88kv0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_lkYQ88kv0)

Looks kind of fun.

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Jaruzel
Favouriting this - as the forum thread doesn't have a conclusion just yet...

------
chatman
Just do an x-ray to find out what is inside.

~~~
ebg13
Ignoring the fact that a transmissive X-ray image requires something to be on
the other side of the object to catch the rays that pass through, have you
ever tried passing X-rays through metal?

------
slowenough
Probably just a jewelry box and some old letters.

~~~
slowenough
Probably just a jewelry box and some old letters.

~~~
slowenough
Probably just a jewelry box and some old letters.

