
Can I fire someone if I don't like them? - testing901
I&#x27;m looking to dismiss an employee (5 weeks in; still in probation) who I have trouble with. This is a bootstrap startup.<p>Performance wise, the employee is doing an above average job. However, we have a lot of personal conflict. These conflicts drain a lot of energy from me which I cannot afford to lose because I need my energy and focus to run the entire company. I lost a lot of productivity because of the stress.<p>Ethically and legally, I understand it is not the employee&#x27;s fault if I have conflict with them. As result, I&#x27;m willing to offer severance (one or two months of salary) just to ship this person away even though it is not required by the law.<p>I will be consulting with an employment lawyer on Monday. I just want to hear what you guys think about the situation.<p>For the sake of my startup and my own well-being, should I terminate this employee and offer some severance (not required by any law)?
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zerr
Just don't do anything as a surprise - make sure the person understands the
possible outcome - and give her enough time to reflect your position. She
might think that she's doing good for the company, even if she have to argue
with you, and she might be actually right, but at the end, it is you who is
paying so you're the client - so make sure the service provider understands
what are your needs - including things like "don't argue with me, even if
you're 100% sure my decision will harm the company".

You mentioned personal conflict - so this might be arguing on some irrelevant
subjects. Even in this case, it might sound odd for her but she should clearly
understand your PoV - "Justin Bieber is better than Led Zeppelin, if you
disagree vocally, I'll fire you!" \- again, this might sound odd to her, but
it depends on her compensation package whether she accepts your conditions or
not.

~~~
ScottWhigham
I'm astounded that this was downvoted by someone. Anyone who has founded a
company and hired employees would recognize this as good advice. The old HN?
Mostly guys who have experience in this area. The new HN? Apparently it's
mostly people who have no experience in this area.

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padseeker
So dumb question - have you taken him/her aside and explain your issues? I
don't want you to go through each and every issue/problem but have you
discussed in private the problems you've had?

I can only tell you what I've seen in the past, but I think best practice is
to have a private talk with the person in question and then provide the issues
you've had in writing, signed by yourself and HR. I'm not an HR/legal expert,
but I believe having those issues documented in writing is important from a
legal standpoint.

And if you have not discussed things privately then I would advise to go that
route. You did not say if you made these comments (like about being late) in
public or private but I would try to minimize the shaming that a public
criticism would bring if you did it in front of other people.

I assume you've already weighed how hard it can be to find tech skilled people
in this economy and what it will be like to replace them. They're only 5 weeks
in so there isn't much tribal knowledge this person has just yet. At the very
least write down the issues, tell that person they are doing above average
work but the problems they are causing is hurting the team and morale. The
"it's not you its us, here is your severance" seems like a smart route as
well. But please consider the documentation of issues for legal purposes, and
try to get a feel for their response. If it is still hostile or resistant then
you might have to let them go.

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DigitalSea
Ethically it's not how things should be done in the business world. This won't
be the last time you come across an employee or client you won't get a long
with. It happens and it can be toxic for the work environment and other
employees.

A couple months severance pay is a nice gesture. I would explain to the
employee you think they are great and highly talented, but you feel as though
they are not the right fit for team and environment. Acknowledge conflicts,
but whatever you do, don't go pointing fingers and shifting blame.

Amicably end the employment and offering a couple months severance pay will
ensure that it definitely ends amicably. Most people don't find themselves in
a situation where an employer is willing to compensate for things the employee
cannot change.

~~~
testing901
Thanks DigitalSea. To confirm, I should do whatever it is the best for my
business and not being overly concerned by guilt?

~~~
anywherenotes
I'm not an employer, so maybe I do not have a good perspective on this. But,
as a business owner you probably depend on this business financially, perhaps
you have family who depends on the business, and perhaps you have other
employees who like working there. So it seems the choice is between upsetting
one employee, or you can upset all those other people by not having your
business run as efficient as possible. So I think your guilt would be
multiplied if you upset all those other people.

You didn't state what the personal issue is, I hope it's not something that's
protected under discrimination laws.

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doctorwho
If they are still in the probation period and haven't signed an employment
contract then I don't believe you are legally bound to pay them any severance
but IANAL and the rules vary widely by jurisdiction. Check with an employment
lawyer before doing anything. You won't regret spending that money.

I would not recommend trying to buy yourself out (i.e. pay to relieve your
guilt). Save the cash for your business and do only what your lawyer says you
have to do. There's a chance this employee will see it as a sign of guilt or
weakness and try for more. It happened to me.

If this employee does good work but is toxic to the work environment, you
might want to suggest a contract arrangement instead of full time employment.
You could pay him to take on well defined tasks (offsite) and keep the
interpersonal interaction to a minimum. That way you keep the talent but lose
the friction.

Add "good communication skills" and "plays well with others" to your job
description for the next round and tighten up your employment contract to
provide for a probation period where any party can terminate within the first
N days. You write up the conditions but get an employment lawyer to help you
draft it into something legally enforceable in your jurisdiction.

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meerita
Sorry if I offend anyone, but I would be ruthless: warning probably before
taking any action. Money is a limited resource and you need to spend it
building something cool: both product as employees. Remember if you're getting
drain out, the rest of the employees are or some of them will be in the same
situation.

Paying someone to drain you off is not what anyone would want nor the nod-like
person. One thing is having someone who may play devil's advocate and a
totally different story is having someone who has an attitude and manners
problem.

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akulbe
Hire slow. Fire fast.

If you're in a right-to-work state, the law says you don't need much reason.
Either party can terminate the employment agreement, at any time, for any
reason.

Anyone can be trained for skill, "fit" either happens or it doesn't.

Like some of the others have suggested a couple month's severance is a nice
gesture... and doing that is certainly a LOT cheaper than keeping someone
around who you either don't get along with, or isn't contributing to the
business.

~~~
akulbe
Okay, so I can't edit this... but I got a snarky email from someone saying it
was hard to take my advice seriously.

I had the "at-will employment" and "right-to-work state" concepts backwards.

The simple fact of the matter is this: in the US there is very little in place
to protect the employer/employee relationship. If an employer wants to let you
go, for almost any reason... it's pretty easy to do so. There is no contract,
to speak of.

Contrast this with Europe (where I lived for 2 years, so my speaking of it
isn't just theoretical) where you sign a contract of definite length with an
employer... and the employee has way more protection and stability than what
is here in the US.

Disclaimer: IANAL and I am not HR. I learned these things from people I worked
with and talked with over there, so I may have all the particulars right.

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rainmaking
I'm a tech employee bootstrapping something on the side.

Once I worked with a co-worker who had an absolutely brilliant mind. He was a
perfectionist, and came up with stunning solutions to write fast code in PHP
(imagine that!).

Unfortunately, he would constantly break the API he exposed to us, creating
weeks worth of work for all of us. When told our needs, he would argue and
argue and argue, creating even more work. He would never listen.

Yes, I believe our team would have been better off without him, and I also
believe that there is a niche somewhere that is perfect for him. I hope he
found it.

About a year later I got fired in a different team. The lead would write
kilometers of spaghetti code fast, and measured productivity by hour fast you
can solve problems. It never occurred to him that it is a bad idea think it is
fast to keep solving problems that might never have come up if you put a
little more thought into your work.

I immediately got another job at startup where I'm half architect half
developer, work just with the CTO, and essentially keep doing what I think
needs to be done unless I hear anything different, which rarely happens. It's
a darn paradise!

I found my niche.

So, by all means, don't force something that just isn't going to work. There
is such a thing as giving up too quickly, but all the thought and
consideration you're putting into it and your willingness to give him
severance are strong indicators that you are not taking this lightly.

I admit it hurt to get fired. A lot. It took me a while to get over it. But I
did. That's life. Shit happens. It's grave. But you can do something grave
ethically as long as you know it's grave and treat it accordingly. Which you
are.

As an added thought, if you were firing him for questioning your technical
decisions, I would advise you to reconsider. Also, if he had said "I'm sorry
I'm just a mess before 11 o'clock and I always miss the bus", I would advise
to work out some kind of solution. But if he's just a darn pain to be around
and doesn't seem to notice or care, that's just plain inconsiderate. If I ever
heard of a good reason to fire someone that's it.

By the way I felt compelled to share all this because it moved me how
conflicted you are about firing someone...

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bdunbar
> However, we have a lot of personal conflict.

A long time ago, my first 'IT' job, and it came time for my first rating. I
got marked down, because, per our supervisor, 'Sergeant P. had problems with
you a few months ago'.

He never said anything about it. It was just 'do this' or 'do that' and I did
those things to the best of my ability. He .. never .. said .. anything. How
could I correct whatever it was that bugged him about me if he didn't _say_
anything.

I _still_ remember how damned irritating that was, twenty-three year later.

You spent some money, and time, hiring this person. Talk to her about whatever
it is that is causing the conflict. See if you can resolve it.

------
davismwfl
Manage your guilt by making sure you have had a frank, honest conversation
with the person. Not by throwing money at it. The money may seem like a small
amount now but bootstrapped generally means strapped, and you will regret it
in 6 months if it wasn't 100% necessary.

Make sure you aren't doing this for some protected class reason, not saying
you are, just obviously that is a way different situation.

Don't let anyone convince you to put up with an asshole just because they are
smart. This is one of the worst decisions you can make. I don't care how smart
someone is, if they aren't able to work on a team or work constructively with
you get rid of them and do so quickly. And don't try to isolate them, this
usually makes the problem worse and again causes you or someone on your team
additional work to manage a specialized work breakout, not doable when you are
small and bootstrapped.

If this was my situation I would likely go down this path. (But make sure you
check with the attorney if you aren't sure/aware of the laws in your
jurisdiction.) Sit with the individual and have an honest above board
conversation (no finger pointing, name calling, etc) and say something to the
affect, you are super smart and talented which I respect, but the situation as
is can not continue because I do not feel it is in the best interest of the
company and also feel it isn't good for you or the team (team to be). So if we
can't come to some middle ground, it is best for you to find someplace else to
be quickly. But leave the door open to the person wanting to change. Sometimes
passion is misunderstood, or mistaken as someone being an asshole when they
are really just trying to fight for the company.

My own complaint about some of the advice I read here. Don't worry about what
might happen/not happen in a month, fix the problem you have today. Not that
you should go blindly, but worrying about what could/couldn't happen just
paralyzes you in fear and means you will fail. Any decision is better than no
decision, either do it or make the commitment to fix it, but don't allow
status quo to continue as it is obviously affecting you. From what you wrote I
think you already get this, but just a point.

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mattwritescode
Take them out for lunch, talk to them and try to understand why they are the
way they are. You said they are doing an above average job, what more could
you ask for. It could be because they are new they are just trying to make
there mark but going the wrong way about it.

You could fire them and hire someone else you get along with but what if this
person needs help doing even the simplest tasks. You dont want to spend the
day wiping there arse. You would soon be wanting the other guy back even
though they annoy you slightly.

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ibstudios
The hardest thing a person can do is to accept another person exactly the way
they are.

I would say there is something to be gained from conflict. It is easy to find
people that will nod and agree.

~~~
testing901
Hi ibstudios,

I understand what you said. I love when people disagree with me because I
always learn from them. However, what happen with this employee is completely
different.

For example, the person was 30 mins so I asked this person to be on-time. This
person then said "why are you targeting me when so-and-so is always late as
well?".

This person is only 5 weeks in but has an attitude to deflate responsibility
and bringing others into the discussion.

~~~
thejteam
Was this person right? I ask this because the other thing you need to think
about is how this action will be perceived by the other employees. Will they
think you treated this person unfairly? Will they resent having to take over
this person's workload until you find a replacement? If so, then you may want
to consider if getting rid of one person is worth poisoning your relationship
with the other employees.

Ultimately, the decision is yours alone. Make the decision and won't worry
about validating the decision with a random internet audience.

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ethana
If that's the reason, then I don't see a case for ethical issue. It's you who
have the biggest stake in seeing your start-up get up and running.

~~~
testing901
Thanks ethana. To confirm, I should do whatever it is the best for my business
and not being overly concerned by guilt?

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chris_va
(not a lawyer, this is not legal advice)

Offer severance if (and only if) they resign. You were going to offer it
anyway, but now it actually buys you something.

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NonEUCitizen
You would rather work with below-average employees who always agree with you,
even when you're wrong?

------
ahutton
Learn to get along with the guy! This will save you money and be good for your
business!

