
Ask HN: What's the best place in Europe to live and work cheaply? - aristidesfl
Similar to the U.S. thread, but for people living in Europe.
======
briggers
I'm in Sofia, Bulgaria right now, doing contract work for international
clients.

Rent is generally very cheap, 250EU/mo for a central apartment (12mo lease). I
am staying here only a month however, so am paying a lot more.

Eating out, beer etc is very cheap. Numbeo gets it about right.

Amusingly, most Bulgarians I speak to ask why I would want to come to
_Bulgaria_ of all places. I guess it's like many places: great fun to visit or
live for a few months but painful for long-term residents.

Upsides apart from cheap living: it's a fun, walkable city with a lot of
excellent parks and very little traffic.

Downsides of living here: shockingly corrupt bureaucracy.

That said, I'll head to Romania when my month here is up. I lived in Istanbul
previously, so let me know if you want to hear about that too.

~~~
bluedevil2k
Not the original poster, but I lived in Istanbul for a month a few years ago.
I found the people to be the most friendly I've ever encountered in my
travels, probably against the expectations of most Americans. Try to live on
the European side, north of the Golden Horn, in the Taksim area.

~~~
briggers
Seconding this. I lived on the asian side for a bit before moving to the euro
side. On euro side I was about 3-400 metres from Taksim Sq for 6 months. (Near
where the big recent protests - I got gassed going supermarket shopping a
couple of times).

Istanbul is a massive city split by the Bosphorus straight (?) into a European
and Asian side. The euro side is where most of the tourist, nightlife and
business stuff is. The asian side is a bit more like suburbia.

In my experience rent was more expensive in Istanbul than Sofia. Around 400+
Euro per month on the euro side. You'd expect cheaper on asian side.

Food costs were quite low when eating out, but _very_ low when market
shopping. At best, around 1USD per kilo of the best peaches on the planet.
Like drinking sweetened peach juice. Cherries and grapes the same.

I used to live on the european side and commute to asia to do my market
shopping. :D (Better produce).

Sorry for rambling.

Upsides of Istanbul: farmers street-market lifestyle - get incredible produce
super cheap. Very happening city full of new experiences. Crossing the
bosphorus on a ferry as part of your daily commute.

Downsides: crazy traffic, quite dirty (think HCMC), byzantine bureaucracy, not
much english around if you're living like a Turk.

If you go to Istanbul, use my app to navigate the public transport:

[https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/transportist/id644276437?mt=...](https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/transportist/id644276437?mt=8)

PM or email or whatever if you want a contact for a livable apartment block
right near the centre in a gypsy slum.

~~~
ebiester
You should have just gone to the Biologik Pazar near the old Bomonte
brewery... it was pretty close to where you were and was the best I found in
Istanbul. (It was a bit more expensive, of course, but still cheap by Western
standards.)

And you're totally right about the peaches. And the apricots.

Now for purposes of the discussion:

Istanbul had a nasty flareup a few months back, but otherwise has been very
stable. You will need to learn a little bit of Turkish, and it's not the
easiest language, but two classes will make the city twice as cheap. It really
is a city that gets cheaper the longer you're there, because you get to know
particular grociers and as you develop a community, they will direct you
toward better deals.

But even at the tourist prices, it's reasonable compared to the rest of
Europe. And learning the tricks can take a significant part of your time for
the first month or two, which may not be the best for a startup.

Immigration is exceedingly easy. Just have 300 bucks per month that you want
in your account. You will need someone to guide you through the process and
translate for you, but that's relatively cheap.

I'd say, though, it's not a beginner's city on your own. If you can give it
two or three months to get settled, then it's a great option. If you need to
hit the ground running, it might not be for you.

------
amix
Porto, Portugal: It has a river, sea and beaches, lots of history, nice
weather, great food, nice people and it's inexpensive. It also has Ryan Air,
which means that you can visit other parts of Europe cheaply (<100 euros for a
roundtrip in most cases). I am at least living here now and I enjoy it.

If you like a little bigger city then Lisbon, Portugal is also an option.

~~~
pedrocr
Another important point is that the telecom infrastructure is pretty good.
These days getting a 100down/10up Mb/s fiber link will cost you 20-40€ a
month, you can get a TV+Internet+Mobile bundle for ~80€ and the urban areas
have good coverage of both fiber and 3G/LTE.

~~~
sourc3
Is it easy to get an apartment? Also, can you get around without speaking
Portuguese?

~~~
pedrocr
Apartments are easy to come by. You can get a nice one for ~400-600€ a month,
probably even a small house with a garden in some spots.

Most of the younger generation (30 or less) will speak decent English, older
people will be mixed. Porto has been getting touristic lately though so most
public places should be used to it. We don't dub movies so we tend to have a
bit more exposure to the language than most (plus you can go to the movies).

------
albertoperdomo
If you don't care much about a startup and tech scene (there is little) you
can spend a nice time in the Canary Islands, Spain.

It's not the cheapest place in Europe, you'll find cheaper locations in
Eastern Europe admittedly. Still, you can find a nice 1BR appartment for
€400-500/mo in Las Palmas City near the beach or share an appartment for
somewhere around €200/mo for a room.

The weather is really really nice throughout the whole year with lots of sun
and there's no real winter. Temp. in the city during the winter can be approx.
18º Celsius. The summers are not extremely hot, rather nice temperatures
around 25º.

There's some co-working places where you can get a desk for €100/mo (half
days) or €150/mo (full days).

There's a lot of activities that you can do almost throughout the entire year:
surfing, boadyboarding, scuba diving, swimming, biking, hiking, climbing and
any other outdoor activity.

There's plenty of bars and clubs and the nightlife is very lively.

Please leave a comment if you want to know more.

~~~
throwawayyyz
What do you think about raising kids there?

~~~
wagerlabs
I have a 5 y.o. and wouldn't move from Tenerife (South). Private college costs
~400EUR/mo, health insurance is cheap and crime is super-low.

Oh, my kid speaks Russian and Spanish natively and they teach German and
English in school. Will best me by 1 language when out of high school.

~~~
albertoperdomo
Nice to see people I know in this thread, Joel. We should meet in person at
some point! ;)

~~~
wagerlabs
I'm bound to hit the Cuban consulate at some point ;).

------
lfittl
Personal Preference: Vienna, Austria

I'm from there, but part of the reason why I keep coming back is cause its
affordable to rent, even in the hip districts (600-700 EUR for 1br) + a great
city to live + good bunch of startups + cheap for flying in/out. Prague is
similar.

Also heard great things about Sofia, but haven't lived there (yet). And Berlin
is of course a good option as well.

~~~
phaer
But, in general, you don't live cheaply there especially compared to other
cities of the area like Bratislava or Budapest. Prices in Restaurants, Coffee
shops, etc are the same as in most other capitals of western Europe. Source: I
grew up in Vienna and lived there until 3 month ago.

I am now living in Chania, Greece and it's quite cheap to live, has a
beautiful old town, nice beaches and fantastic mountains around. The only
drawbacks are that there is only a small Linux user group, but the next hacker
space is about 3 hours by bus in Iraklio and that it's only cheap as long as
you don't have too pay to much taxes.

~~~
lfittl
Yeah, agreed. Its all relative, thats why I used "affordable" instead of
"cheap".

In my head I compare Vienna with London and the US (SF/NYC/etc) which are 2-3x
as expensive, plus healthcare is worse.

------
kephra
I would recommend my hometown for self employed, small companies and
freelancers: Bremen/Germany

Bremen was a harbor and shipyard town 30 years ago. Now most shipyards are
bankrupt, and the harbor seldom sees big ships.

Rentals are really cheap, e.g. I'm paying Euro208 warm (including heating,
water, waste, etc - excluding electricity 64Euros and internet SDSL+Cable ~
50Euro) for two small rooms plus a big kitchen. So I can smoke at my computer,
sleep in a room where I dont smoke and host guests at the kitchen. Houses are
also cheap, sometimes only Euro40k.

Bremen is a medium size (500k inhabitants) green city with parks everywhere,
and gardens around the houses. You can ride bicycle everywhere. We have a good
public transport. Its long and narrow. So regardless where you live, you are
in walking distance to the river, and in walking distance to the rural. It
basically feels like a suburb, but with good transport, and bicycle lanes.

Internet is cheap and available, e.g. 30mbit cable for Euro30/month or 100mbit
cable for Euro40/month. Ryan air is at our airport, so you can fly within
Europe for Euro19, if you pick the right time at night for ordering a ticket.

Bremen is a free Hanse city and friendly to foreigners. One of our mottos are
"Am nettesten sind die Zugereisten" (the nicest people here are from outside).
Citizen here are traditional left wing, so neo-nazi's have a very hard stand,
and are seldom seen in public.

Bremen has a friendly police, and a sane drug policy. You can smoke marijuana
at the dike, and the police will greet you while riding bicycle, and its usual
that junkies are sitting in a small park behind the police station. Especially
Bremen-Nord (north part of Bremen) has a very friendly small tax office, with
great newbie support, and public servants who care for your business.

The drawbacks are high unemployment, low wages, and its nearly impossible to
get a developers job outside of the military industrial complex. Also others
claim that we are cold. Its hard to learn new people in a pub, but thats
easier if you are from outside Germany. But we prefer to gather in clubs (e.g.
we have 2 hacker spaces). We have several sport clubs, that are affordable,
e.g. most working class sailing clubs costs Euro100/year for adults with own
yachts. We often joke that Bremen has always good weather: In winter its warm
and rainy, and in summer its raining and warm, thanks to gulf stream.

~~~
pyvpx
what are the VISA requirements like for someone from a western country (say,
the US or Canada)? If I wanted to live in Germany for a full year, is there a
way to do so working independently (i.e. without a German corporation
sponsoring a work VISA)?

thanks.

~~~
Guest98130
Germany has a freelance visa that'll allow you to stay in the country for a
year or longer. It's not the easiest to obtain, but do a quick search on
Google and you'll find information on the process.

~~~
kephra
Thanks - thats new to me - I'll investigate it. But I fear 1-2 years are not
enough to be interesting for most people. Thats why those I know used the
marriage trick.

------
welder
Budapest, Hungary:

[https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=budapest&tbm=isch](https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=budapest&tbm=isch)

Nice downtown apartments are $300 USD/mo.

~~~
fvrghl
I was just in Budapest. It was really beautiful, but I encountered some of the
rudest people I have ever met. I've read on other travel sites that people in
Budapest are extremely rude to tourists compared to the rest of Hungary. Maybe
it's implied by the nature of this thread that you should learn the language
before you move there, but you definitely should for Budapest (assuming you
don't want to encounter rudeness).

~~~
peterjs
As a matter of fact, I do speak the language. A lot of things feel weird to me
when I come to visit the city. I have this uneasy feeling about things like
the Hungarian Guard [1][2] - a paramilitary group having a rally on the most
most important square in Budapest. Or having a fascist party, as the 3rd
biggest, in the Parliament [3].

Yet, there is an incredible amount of gifted people, who are the exact
opposite of these jerks. I guess a lot of people here admire undertakings like
Prezi, LogMeIn, ArchiCAD/Graphisoft, or Ustream, all coming from Budapest.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Guard](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Guard)
[2]
[http://www.maszol.ro/uploads/files/userfiles/images/kulfold/...](http://www.maszol.ro/uploads/files/userfiles/images/kulfold/2013/J%C3%BAlius/09/magyar_garda_hosok_tere081219.jpeg)
[3] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik)

------
lfx
Try Lithuania.

Rent is about 180-400 EU/mo. Weather is good, not too hot, not too cold.
Sun/rain ratio is nice. Cities is not too big, so during season bicycling is
preferable. Also public transport is ok. Food for 2 person family is about 150
EU/mo. Streets is safe for foreigners.

And Internet is super fast and super cheap here.

And there is nice and informative video clip
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPO4tbV4UHk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPO4tbV4UHk)

~~~
croisillon
Quite cold + dead nature from September to April, especially cold and white
from January to March

~~~
lfx
Perfect environment for distraction free work in the office.

~~~
croisillon
If you don't slide or freeze on your way.

------
fun2have
I would go for Lisbon. It has very good and cheap flight connections to the
rest of Europe (not good to the West Coast of America). Easyjet, and RyanAir
fly out of Lisbon, and the national airline TAP is very good and only slightly
more expensive. Very nice weather. We still have not turned on the heating
yet.

You can live cheaply and well. It may not be the cheapest cheapest in Europe,
but is good value for money. For example at a restaurant opposite our office
for only 5€ you can have a freshly grilled Sea Bass or a steak. Office rents
are cheap as well. Expect to pay from 6€ to 10€ per m3. So you can out source
the cooking and even the driving cheaply. A taxi to the airport will set you
back just 8€.

Somebody I know just rented a two bed apartment in the centre of town for 440€
per month.

There is a vibrant Start Up Community. Some really good people.

For us the decision was more than just cost, but also standard of living.

You can find more details here in why we decided to open an office here:
[http://blog.webnographer.com/2010/10/an-rd-office-in-
lisbon/](http://blog.webnographer.com/2010/10/an-rd-office-in-lisbon/)

~~~
dbs
Gotta love the story:

A story, that had been told to my brothers, and me since we where small, also
helps explains my strong connections to Portugal: In the 1960′s my father, a
journalist, was in the Congo covering the war after it’s independence from
Belgium. The car he was driving had skidded off the road, and turned over.
United Nation’s troops passed him by without stopping, but suddenly out of
nowhere a bunch of Portuguese cigarette smugglers appeared. They dragged him
out of the car into their car, then sped him across the border, and dropped
him of at a hotel…

My rescuers bought me a large South African brandy at the bar, gave 500
Rothmans [cigarettes], checked my wallet to see I had enough cash, then left
me, delivered back to my native culture, never to see them again. It was the
first time I had met Portuguese knowingly – and my first encounter, not only
with their extraordinary reaching-out to a stranger in need, but with their
blend of bravado, honour, ingenuity and poise.

Extract from The First Global Village: How Portugal Changed the World, by
Martin Page

------
winter_blue
Dubai.

\- Zero taxes. _You nearly double your income!_

\- Low cost of living for a city of its caliber. Rent: <$1k/mo. Food: if you
cook, less than $0.5k/mo. Cheap gas/petrol. Lots of fun stuff (indoor ski,
etc.) You can live comfortably on <$2k/month.

\- Easy to get a freelancer visa. You get freelancer visa by setting up a
company in a free zone, and issuing a work visa to yourself. This can cost
about $5-$7k yearly. Unlike most countries, there are no nonsensical visa
rules, or caps (ahem, H1-Bs) -- you're pretty much guaranteed to get one if
you apply, no questions asked.

[The classic straw man argument against Dubai is that it's in a restrictive
non-free country with ultra-orthodox Islamic and what not. This is not really
true. It's one of the nicest places in the Middle East, and has a very diverse
populace with the vast majority being foreign-born.]

~~~
enneff
Yeah but then you have to live in a totally artificial environment that is a
living monument to consumerism.

~~~
winter_blue
What are you implying here anyways? That the buildings, malls, water theme
parks, etc. are artificial? Well then, I'd say most cities are artificial.
Unless you want to move into a jungle. Does that count as natural?

~~~
enneff
I'm implying that the city seems to mostly cater to people whose primary
leisure activity is spending money. There's no natural environment to explore
there, and it's mostly culturally bereft.

------
cmdkeen
Parts of the UK outside London are actually pretty cheap to live in. I live in
Edinburgh, slap in the middle of the city, which is also a World Heritage
Site. I have a 5 minute walk to work and flat (apartments...) go for £500/800
for a 1/2 bed. Other parts of the UK are much cheaper again.

~~~
hassy
£800 for a two bed on the Royal Mile?

~~~
cmdkeen
New Town :) Living on the Royal Mile is a mad idea, just today someone who
used to do it was telling me about the constant bagpipes!

------
sebkomianos
Depends on what you are looking for really. Are you a freelancer? Do you want
to join a startup? Want to create one? Do you have clients already or are you
on the hunt for some? Do you like big cities or prefer the countryside? Do you
want a warm climate or want to stay in during cold nights?

~~~
shutupalready
When I go into a store and ask the salesman for help, his first question is
invariably, What price range are you looking for?

Yes, I _could_ answer his question (and the OP could answer your questions),
but I prefer not to. I want to hear about all the options.

The OP might prefer a warm climate, but he might be willing to tolerate colder
weather if he's told it's super cheap or has city-wide free wifi. He might be
a freelancer but might change his objective if he heard that a particular
country was granting easy visas for startup founders.

I know you're trying to be helpful by asking the OP to give a precise spec on
what he wants, but this entire discussion would have been far less interesting
if he had done so!

------
markvdb
Riga, Latvia. Cheap. Very good internet connectivity. Our simple 25m² office:
80€ including heating, electricity and high speed internet. Little
bureaucracy. Safe. Contrary to what people seem to think, low corruption. Low
taxes, especially for startups. Euro starting from 2014.

Plus I like the funny language and (some of) the people. Do take a trip to
some sunny destination in the middle of the winter though, because it can get
really dark during winter...

------
wcfields
Ljubljana, Slovenia is really nice. It's a mix of east & west, uses Euros/EU,
and rent is fairly inexpensive. I met a few ex-pat Americans that were working
in tech / IT.

No one will ever expect you to learn Slovenian too, it's such a complicated
language that unless you were a native speaker, it's next to impossible to
speak correctly.

------
nolok
Question for the people answering: how do you handle revenu/salary taxes ? I
see no mention of it in any post, do you keep paying in your home country, or
do you pay in each countries ?

~~~
DrJokepu
In the EU you pay income tax in the member state where you have earned your
income.

Some countries of the world (notably the United States of America) require its
citizens and permanent residents to pay income tax on foreign earned income as
well (in some cases). No EU member states have such requirement.

~~~
aristidesfl
This is not entirely true. There are laws in many EU countries to prevent tax
evasion which make you pay tax income on the country you have citizenship in,
specially if you claim to be working from a known tax haven. Yes there is a
list for that.

~~~
albertoperdomo
You can live in Spain for example and work and generate revenue and pay taxes
within you country of origin. I think the criteria is you're officially living
and working where you spend more than 50% of the year.

So I know people that spend less than 50% in a different country, and making
revenue and paying taxes within their country, legally.

------
varsketiz
Check out Vilnius (I'm obviously biased, but bear with me), Lithuania:

Cheap:

* Cheap rent. 500eu should get you a decent flat in the city centre without much research

* Cheap cabs. Cabs that take you around will rarely cost more than 3-4eu

* Cheap transportation options with Ryanair and Wizzair

* Cheap internet and communications

Not many other places will offer this great quality of life for ~1500eu/month.
Obviously, you can get around much much cheaper, but I'd say that 1500 - 2000
eu/month is the sweet spot

Good:

* Fastest internet in Europe. Seriously

* People speak english. Everyone under 30 will be able to speak english to you. Might be a little harder to communicate to the older folk without knowing lithuanian/russian

* Growing tech community. Regular meetups for ruby / php / js / java / .net usergroups + the biggest developer conference in the Baltics is coming very soon - [http://buildstuff.lt/](http://buildstuff.lt/)

* Great dinning options. Lunch in my favorite places, some of which have award-winning chef's, will start at 5eu (you can find lunch deals from 3eu). Evening dinning options are great too

* One of the largest old-town's in Northern Europe. Very cozy

* Funs bars. Can't speak about clubs too much, but there are plenty of bars with cheap beer and great crowd

* Lots of interesting stuff to explore within 100km radius - old castles, gorgeous lakes, mighty forests

Winters can get a bit cold and dark, especially if you are used to southern
climates. Best weather from April to October.

Some pictures - [http://curiouseggs.com/beautiful-lithuania-25-wonderful-
phot...](http://curiouseggs.com/beautiful-lithuania-25-wonderful-photos/)

~~~
peachepe
How easy is it to get a VISA? I'm Nicaraguan.

~~~
varsketiz
It is the same as other parts of the EU -
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Nicaragua...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Nicaraguan_citizens)

------
nmbdesign
Montenegro is a quite nice place for a freelancer, beaches/good weather/very
cheap prices and rent

~~~
levosmetalo
That's all good and well unless you want to take a shower during the daylight
in the summer. Just make sure that your apartment has water all the time, and
you will enjoy Montenegro.

------
fHbjKlf6
I'm surprised Malta hasn't been discussed (tiny island in the mediterranean,
just south of Sicily). I arrived here 5 years ago thinking it would be a
paradise (its not). Below are my generalisations:

Upside = Best weather in Europe, English speaking, 100Mb/s fiber, cheap
ryanair flights to most of Europe, cheap rent compared to Northern Europe -
luxury 3 bed flat around 800 Euro.

Downside = Extremely conservative and religious state run by the church
(abortion is illegal even if mothers life is at risk - WTF). 10 year prison
sentences for possession of Marijauana. Extremely narrow minded people. Ugly,
very dry, dirty polluted beaches, lots of rock and very little green. Very
poor standard of food at restaurants and even supermarkets.

I'm leaving for the Netherlands, can't wait!

~~~
jlengrand
French guy living in the netherlands here! The country is awesome. People are
really open minded, and I found a job in a matter of days with no connections
at all!

Hope you like it as much as me ;)

------
andrew_isidoro
Cardiff, Wales. Not only a great place to live but also has a vibrant and
growing digital community:

[http://cardiffstart.com](http://cardiffstart.com)
[http://cardiffdigital.com](http://cardiffdigital.com)

------
Anon84
Probably one of the crisis countries: Portugal, Greece, etc... Local salaries
and prices are especially low, so if you have an external source of income you
should be at least upper middle class while living by some of the most
gorgeous beaches in the world.

------
chozero
Canary Islands, Spain, is one of them. Good weather all year round, good
internet connection in many places and plenty of flight connections to most
important cities in Europe. Affordable prices for housing and food.

You just need to avoid the too touristic places.

------
kcovia
I like to plan a fun little game on AirBnB for this. Put in Europe as the
destination, <$600 per month as the price, and a month as the duration. It'll
show you available apartments in everywhere from Sicily to Northern Germany.

[https://www.airbnb.com/s/Europe?checkin=12%2F01%2F2013&check...](https://www.airbnb.com/s/Europe?checkin=12%2F01%2F2013&checkout=01%2F01%2F2014&room_types%5B%5D=Entire+home%2Fapt&price_max=620&sw_lat=24.17207670154004&sw_lng=-5.463239690095634&ne_lat=57.627875350960224&ne_lng=33.823869684904366&search_by_map=true)

~~~
aristidesfl
Airbnb monthly prices will be considerably higher than what you can find
locally though. Nevertheless is useful to do a relative comparison.

~~~
franklovecchio
Where's a good place to find rentals outside of AirBnB if you're not
physically there yet and want to plan ahead?

------
meerita
I would vote for Barcelona, Spain.

Best spot for flying to all european cities. Best weather, beaches with nice
water temperature. Organization, cleanness, respectful people and
multicultural: you will hear a lot of english as well other dozens of
languages.

Life in Barcelona is not so cheap, but compared to other cities it's a dream.

I'm living here since 2001 and I will never leave this place I guess.

This is an old comment I've submitted to HN telling my expenses in Barcelona
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6618033](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6618033)

------
raulriera
You can live in the south of Spain for very little... assuming you don't want
to live in big cities of course

~~~
wizzardy
Marbella, Spain is starting to get some attention from investors lately
([http://marbellalabs.com](http://marbellalabs.com)). I really hope we will
see more tech people here soon.

~~~
auxbuss
Hey Paul, I worked there a couple of years ago -- 2 mins from the Copper Tower
-- but came back to UK, reluctantly. I'd come back at the drop of a hat.

I tried to get things going when I was there, particularly at the Málaga tech
park.

I'd love to know what's going on.

------
AlexanderDhoore
I guess France, Belgium and the Netherlands are out of the question? Since you
included "cheaply".

~~~
virtualwhys
550 Euros a month down here in the Landes region of France, with high speed
internet, 5 minute walk from the beach and world class surf (depending on the
season).

Probably going to migrate south to the Algarve in Portugal for the winter --
northern european rain, wind, cold are not my cup of tea...

------
jaakl
There are not that many countries/capitals where I've not been in Europe, so I
think I can compare instead of pushing my hometown: My personal top of
metropolis: 1\. Berlin - great startup stuff, cheap (in context of west
Europe/ Germany), sexy, English, easy to adopt from e.g. US 2\. Istanbul -
cheap, hacker friendly, kiloton of culture, but need to manage/like a bit
asian way of life. Best food. 3\. London - great startup stuff (services and
top people), high costs but high revenues also. So great if you want to earn a
lot, not sepend a little. 4\. Dublin - low taxes, good startup stuff, all US
IT is there (but maybe already working for Google etc), moderate costs, no
language problem

\- Northern countries (Scandinavia, Baltics): good/moderate startup activities
(ask me, I'm from there), high costs and also revenues (except Baltics which
is vice versa), low corruption, e-services (eg. Estonia: open company in 15
min online). Can manage in English mostly (less in Baltics but still). My key
problem: long winter

\- East Europe: low costs and revenues, high corruption (paperwork/tax pain),
problems with English except in small startup enclaves, need local friends
(especially bigger countries like Poland, Czech Rep, Romania). If you can cope
with this a bit Asian/Russian lifestyle, I'd skip it and go to Istanbul
already, you'd have not only pain but also gain of this mess.

\- South-West Europe - each country is quite different, but generally medium
costs and revenues, need to know local language or friend (spanish, italian,
french, greek), ton of culture which tends to bring also bureaucracy (expect
months to your paper processing) , high living quality.

~~~
izelnakri
Im an istanbullu whos been living in vienna for almost 4 years now. First of
all, i do think that vienna is a far better option than istanbul as a
whole(including living costs if youre willing to live in a WG-sharedflat). In
istanbul people tend to use old and outdated technologies, so talent is quite
rare but if u can find some, they will cost u cheaper. Somehow i spend less
money in vienna than i do in istanbul, its quite strange i know but thats a
fact! Infrastructure in istanbul is quite lame too. Obtaining an austrian
living permit should be pretty hard if ure not an EU citizen, i have a student
visa. Berlin is probably the best bet, i agree. I just dont agree that
istanbul is a hacker-friendly place.

~~~
TheSmoke
so many things have changed in 4 years. you can check out the conferences and
meetups in istanbul. the city is constantly adapting itself to new cultures
since many foreigners are coming and living in the city. you can go out to any
coffee / tea shop, enjoy yourself some tea and work as much as you want.

the downside of istanbul is that it's insanely huge and crowded. the traffic
is a big pain in the ass but that's changing since many people are starting to
use public transportation and the municipality is expanding transportation
options. by 2023 things will be way more different.

------
istorical
I'm building an online community/wiki to try to find the answer to this
question and others like it. So far I've gotten responses from more than 100
expats, long-term travelers, and nomads about different places they've lived.

You might be interested in reading some of the posts people have contributed
so far.

Link: [http://www.istorical.com](http://www.istorical.com)

~~~
istorical
But to actually contribute here:

I'd recommend Prague:
[http://www.istorical.com/cities/prague/experiences/127](http://www.istorical.com/cities/prague/experiences/127)

[Are you able to afford a better standard of living in Prague than in other
places you've lived, or able to afford less?]

"Money certainly goes a lot farther here. For one thing, the shops are
terrible, so there's nowhere to indulge yourself if you want to go crazy with
your credit card. Parking in the city centre is next to impossible but the
public transportation system here is safe, clean and a pleasure to use so
there's no need to drive a car. The rent compared to other European cities is
pretty cheap although times are changing and costs are going up in general.
When I first visited Prague, a beer was less than a euro and you only needed
to work three days a week to live like a king. But just like anywhere else,
you can either pay through the nose for an apartment or get one really cheap
by developing the right contacts.

The drugs and clothes are more expensive and much poorer quality than in the
UK but everything else is generally much cheaper.

We live right in the centre of the city so I'm not sure how that compares to
the outer edges of the city but we pay 18,000.00 CZK = 698.377 EUR for 90, sq
meter apartment with 1 large bedroom, kitchen and living room plus a decent-
sized balcony that looks out over the street. That price includes all janitor
services, wi-fi and cable TV. This is way more expensive than what I was
paying for a three-bedroom house on the outskirts of London but hey, it's
Prague."

------
nader
Berlin, definitely. It is the best mix of everything you need.

~~~
aristidesfl
Except sun light in the winter...

~~~
claudius
That really depends on the winter, but most have two or three sunny days, at
least…

~~~
mercer
I've been told for the past three years that _this_ is an unusually cold
winter :-/.

------
forcer
You can move to some low-tax or no-tax country. I can recommend Andorra, 0%
income tax and reasonable prices for pretty much anything , rent, food,
alcohol etc :) I also heard Belarus has almost no tax and its very cheap to
live there, but there will be lots of bureaucracy :)

~~~
cmdkeen
"lots of bureaucracy" being code for authoritarian dictatorship... I suppose
if you want to learn about how you don't actually live in a police state in
the West you could move there.

~~~
zebra
Not always - in Bulgaria there is lot of bad bureaucracy, but the regime is
mix of democracy and oligarchy. The country is almost European country.

------
brunooo
From someone who has a strong culture & tech ecosystem balance bias:

\- Berlin: It's the perfect combination of cheap living costs and OKish
(growing) tech community

\- As mentioned pretty much everything from Paris to Kiev gets really dark &
cold in winter, and not in a NY/Chicago cool way.

\- More and more people (especially British) move to Spain, mostly Barcelona.
Not as good in terms of startup community as Berlin, but at least equally
cheap & decent regarding arts.

Personal bottom line if you want to spend the whole year in Europe: Barcelona
in Winter, Berlin in summer, and using LCC fares to get to London for
interesting meetups etc.

~~~
mercer
Doesn't Barcelona get pretty chilly in the winter months? I mean, not as bad
as Berlin, but still cold. I've heard even Valencia gets to around 10 degrees
celcius in winter.

------
ofk88
I live in Munich since 1 year. I am originally from Istanbul. I guess Munich
has the highest salaries in Europe. But the city is a bit expensive. I pay 755
euro for a 36 square meters apartment. Berlin is another option. It's a very
international city and cheap but the salaries are lower.

After Istanbul, Munich seems like a dead village to me. I still can't get used
to that streets are totally empty after 9-10 pm.

Istanbul is an amazing city. And a lots of job opportunities there. Better
climate than Germany. You can't earn as much as Germany but you can still
catch the same life standards.

~~~
gst
Haven't lived in Munich yet, but I expect salaries in cities like London or
Zurich to be significantly higher.

~~~
camus2
Zurich is VERY expensive.Switzerland is expensive in general.

~~~
collyw
Well as long as you are earning more than you spend, that not a problem.On the
other hand if you don't then, you may as well go for one of the cheap
countries.....

------
wrongc0ntinent
Anyone with input about Valencia, Spain?

------
zalew
define _cheap_ , but: Warsaw (I may be obviously biased). Berlin. beautiful
Praha (no idea how the tech market looks like there though).

~~~
eCa
How would you rate Krakow compared to Warsaw? Numbeo says it's a bit
cheaper[1]?

[1] [http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...](http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Poland&city1=Warsaw&country2=Poland&city2=Krakow+%28Cracow%29&displayCurrency=USD)

~~~
zalew
Basically every place in Poland is cheaper than Warsaw. Comparing any Polish
city to Warsaw economically will give the obvious same results on every
aspect, but these cities are completely different breeds of horse. Krakow is
more visually appealing and is loved for its historical and cultural value,
and a kind of bohemian vibe. Business has boomed significantly during the last
decade down there and it's getting more attractive. I've heard it faces
serious pollution problems, and in some areas crime is more significant than
in Warsaw (which in general is a pretty safe place). When it comes to 'big
city life', making money and riding on the fast lane in the land of
opportunities, Warsaw is considered that place (saying it's the NY of Poland
would be a bit of a stretch, but you get my point). As for the general vibe,
Warsaw is the kind of big city you love or hate with a passion, there is no
middle ground. You need to learn it and it will be for you what you want it to
be. So, whether you're more happy here or there depends on what you are really
looking for.

For cheaper city alternatives, I've heard a lot of positives about Wroclaw,
but I honestly don't know much about it.

Disclaimer: I'm locally patriotic, but that said I sincerely believe Warsaw is
the place to be, YMMV.

------
lmm
If cheap is really what matters then Belarus. It's not a nice place to live
though.

------
throwmeaway2525
This was the original thread (I think my post led to this one, which split the
responses):

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6700531](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6700531)

------
kushti
Berlin(relatively cheap, well developed tech scene, big), Prague(amazing city,
cheap, well developed tech scene, not so big and not small(1.2M population)),
Bratislava(small and quiet)

------
outside1234
I lived in the south of Spain on the very cheap for a couple of years. Highly
recommended - I lived in Conil de la Frontera 200m from ocean for less than
300 euros a month.

------
rtfm666
this shit is gold, please keep anwering! Please include income, rent and
possibility of dev jobs, english speaking etc etc

------
k-mcgrady
I live in the UK and we use Pounds Sterling. When I travel to any country
using the Euro prices are always relatively higher so I would recommend
against a country using the Euro. I found this list showing Euro/Non-euro
countries:
[http://www.aph.com/news/knowbeforeyougo/euro_countries.shtml](http://www.aph.com/news/knowbeforeyougo/euro_countries.shtml)

~~~
igravious
topic: Ask HN: What's the best place in Europe to live and work cheaply?

> I would recommend against a country using the Euro.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone)

Dude, 17 out 27 EU member states use the € with Latvia joining 1 Jan 2014 and
Lithuania 1 Jan 2015. Population of Eurozone: 330 million. Good luck coming to
Europe and avoiding the Eurozone: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Estonia, Finland,
France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands,
Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Spain.

Some of these places are really really cheap to live in and work in, and life
on the ground varies drastically _within_ countries as well, especially bigger
countries like Germany - witness Munich versus Berlin. Yours is the most
bizarre advice I've heard in a long long while.

For the interested check out the variation in GDP per capita by region:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GD...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP)

Goes from ~ €80,000 to ~ €7,000

~~~
k-mcgrady
>> "Good luck coming to Europe and avoiding the Eurozone" >> "Dude, 17 out 27
EU member states use the €"

10 countries don't use it. That still leaves you with quite a lot of choice.
And as I said I was just speaking from personal experience that goods Euro
using countries tend to be more expensive. This probably doesn't apply to
every one of those countries but it has in every one I've visited.

~~~
igravious
> 10 countries don't use it.

As of January 1st 2015 that'll be down to 8 as I said so you'd be recommending
avoiding those as well.

Look. There is no sense in recommending that people avoid the _entire_
Eurozone just because the places that _you_ visited in the Eurozone tend to be
more expensive than where you are from (N.I., which to be fair ain't even that
inexpensive.) Makes no sense I tells ya.

------
emilsundberg
I would recommend you to keep out of Eastern Europe. The people there wants to
believe they have left their history behind but they haven't.

When I visited Budapest the police acted as Stasi and on the local metro they
only asks foreigners for valid tickets. Very unfriendly. I would never
recommend anyone going there.

~~~
zalew
Budapest ticket inspectors are not a representative of the Eastern Europe
region, you know?

------
firegrind
gibraltar if you commute by foot from spain. predominantly, the tech culture
is based around established gaming and finance companies. english is the
lingua franca in work hours.

