
Malibu homeowners foiled by $30K Kickstarter campaign - kirillzubovsky
http://sub.garrytan.com/malibu-homeowners-who-hide-access-to-beautiful-beaches-foiled-by-$30k-kickstarter-campaign
======
waterside81
Just for a little context for those unfamiliar with Malibu. Some beaches are
public, some are private and open only to those who live in particular
neighbourhoods. The residents here are remarkably wealthy, we're talking
Speilberg, Streisand, Geffen, and at times have hired their own private
security to check people's ID to ensure they belong there. Broad Beach (I
think) is public, but there's gates that block access to it requiring a key.
So this app informs people which gates are legit and which ones are erected
under false premise.

Malibu problems.

~~~
waitwhatwhoa
"some beaches are private" is actually incorrect - all beaches in California
are public from the water to the high tide line.

~~~
Alex3917
"all beaches in California are public from the water to the high tide line."

There is also a federal law that makes all navigable rivers open to the public
up to the high water line. However, as far as I know there isn't any database
that contains a list of all the rivers that are considered to be navigable,
meaning that actually using this protection might require an expensive
affirmative defense.

~~~
czbond
As a whitewater kayaker in Texas, I can concur with this saving us. But the
police don't often know the federal law and will still harass or arrest you.

~~~
khafra
Also, federal law won't necessarily save you in court, unless you have the
money and time to escalate. I took a traffic fine to court once, showed the
judge copies of the federal regulation and photos of the area proving that the
signage was invalidly placed, and he upheld the fine anyway--he literally said
"I don't care."

------
mturmon
This app was led in part by an LA journalist and lover of Malibu beaches,
Jenny Price. She had been reporting on these public beaches in a series that
ran on laobserved.com, a popular LA blog.

Here's the first such piece, which I notice ran in 2006:

[http://www.laobserved.com/intell/2006/08/guide_to_malibus_hi...](http://www.laobserved.com/intell/2006/08/guide_to_malibus_hidden_beache.php)

Here's a link to the announcement of the kickstarter campaign:

[http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2013/05/time_ticking_for_j...](http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2013/05/time_ticking_for_jenny_pr.php)

which contains pointers to some of her other articles.

It was a genius idea on someone's part to get her to build an app around this
knowledge. She's a journalist, not a computer nerd.

~~~
karmajunkie
Why do you assume that the idea wasn't hers?

~~~
mturmon
Since this is HN, I was trying to point out that it's a case where latent
knowledge was transformed into highly useful software.

I do pretty much assume the app wasn't totally her idea. This is because I've
been aware of her work (e.g.,
[http://west.stanford.edu/node/901](http://west.stanford.edu/node/901)) for
probably 10 years now, but hey, I could be wrong. The agency that developed
the app is here: [http://escapeapps.com/about](http://escapeapps.com/about)

------
tmarthal
It seems to me that if they really wanted to disrupt the Malibu beach scene
and provide more access for the public to the beaches, that they would just
release the data as an annotated geojson file, rather than raise 30k(!) to
create an app that will no longer be updated in a year.

Props to them for doing a civil service, but it seems to me that it is also
very-much motivated by money.

~~~
mirkules
I don't see anything inherently wrong in building a business around a civil
service.

Your exclamation mark indicates that 30K is too much for an app like this, but
I disagree because someone has to do the research to find each beach access
point, identify false ones, organize the data into a database and build a
app/web service around it.

For an average Silicon Valley salary, $30K is a quarter of a year's worth of
salary. My guess is that more than three months of work was put into this.

~~~
tmarthal
I also have no problem with people building businesses around a civil service.
However, this is a kickstarter campaign which seems to be trying to raise
money for work that has already been done.

I put the exclamation point there because it is my outsider perspective that
the data has already been researched and compiled by the California Coastal
Commission. An iPhone application has even already been submitted to Apple and
approved (that's my understanding, their kickstarter page has changed over the
last few weeks). They are raising the money so that they can "release the
iPhone app for free", instead of charging for it. That is the reason for my
exclamation point -- to believe that the app would compile 30k worth of
purchases may be disingenuous.

------
johnbender
Given that the project goal is to permit as many people as possible to find
these beach entrances isn't it a bit odd to target a total of two platforms
for the application? I'm surprised they aren't doing something this simple
with the web.

Put another way, isn't accessibility a prime concern for a beach accessibility
application?

~~~
nobodysfool
You can just go here to get the information for free:

[http://www.coastal.ca.gov/access/BroadBeachCoastalAccess.pdf](http://www.coastal.ca.gov/access/BroadBeachCoastalAccess.pdf)

They are just providing a better user experience and advertising, but it is
public information and it is free.

~~~
johnbender
I'm asking why the "better user experience" can't be accessible to people
without an iPhone or Android device.

~~~
fancyketchup
Because perfection is the enemy of the "good enough," and iPhone + Android
covers an enormous share of the market. Should they support Lynx on SunOS 5,
too? No? Why? Because a vanishingly small number of people use that platform.

~~~
johnbender
The app is simple enough that it seems within the realm of possibility that it
would take _less_ time to build it using the web thereby getting support for
many more operating systems for free.

------
earbitscom
Can they make this app also tell you when valet parking companies are falsely
putting cones and signs in front of parking meters, etc? This happens in every
area of Santa Monica, Venice, LA, etc. They make it look like several parking
spots are legally blocked from 6pm to 2am for their valet service, when in
fact they are not. It's a way bigger problem than this beach thing, but seems
like it would rely on similar technology.

~~~
wilfra
Why are the cops letting them do that?

------
fatjokes
Tell me that the homeowners who put up the misleading signs get fined,
preferably heavily, knowing how wealthy those homeowners likely are.

~~~
TylerE
Isn't there a free speech issue here? Can't they put up signs proclaiming
whatever they want _on their own property?_. Yes, I am aware that there are
some specific public-safety oriented exceptions, like impersonating police,
but I don't see that here. Scumbag? Yes, but it absolutely should not be
illegal.

~~~
sk5t
This argument makes no sense. Why not paint the curb in front of your house
red or yellow to discourage parking, then? Why not pop a few "free speech"
stop signs on the road as part of a private traffic-calming initiative? Why
not leave it up to the informed motorist to figure out whether the curb is
painted red for a safety reason or merely because the homeowner is a jackass?

Trying to enforce one's will over public property and public behavior with
misleading, official-looking signs is scarcely any better than impersonating a
police officer for the same effect--it's just a matter of degree.

~~~
philmcc
Well, while I agree with the spirit of what your saying, 100%, I do disagree
with his argument not making sense.

Everything you're suggesting would be illegal, because the person would be
defacing public property. There's a clear line between repainting a city owned
curb or a posting a sign on a city owned streetside.

It's not -exactly- the same as painting a curb on your own property, or
putting a sign on your own lawn.

Again. I agree that these Malibu owners are being crappy, but there's a
difference.

~~~
rdtsc
The whole problem is finding out exactly where the property line is. There is
a whole army of professionals that do that, full time -- surveyors. And there
are databases of lots and zones that local governments maintain (some even
behind pay walls). So finding out where exactly "private" stops and "public"
begins is not that simple.

The issue might not be that big in areas where nobody cares about land that
much, but in NY, LA, or other big city, where the cost of land is so high,
every inch counts.

So you paint the curb red and install a fake fire hydrant. Is the curb yours
or not? I don't know. Can you "impersonate" a fire hydrant to stop others from
parking in front of your house? Not sure. It seems like it would be illegal.
Kind of like putting a fake "highway entrance" green sign on the side of your
house. It is your property but if it start directing traffic into your
neighbor's pool you might just get fined or sued. At least a law will quickly
be created to deal with the issue.

------
ambiate
Finally, someone started taking my advice! This is very interesting. I never
considered that homeowners might put up fake signs to detour the public.

"Special logo thanks! ---> We'll put your logo / icon (280 x 280 px) PLUS a
link to your website on a special thank you page in the app! Plus, an advance
copy of the app. Estimated delivery: Jun 2013 "

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5794094](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5794094)

~~~
tnorthcutt
Although note that they're only putting the link in the app, not on a website,
from what I can tell. So, not really buying a link in the traditional sense.

------
robomartin
The first thought I had was: Why doesn't someone organize an "Occupy Malibu"?
Hundreds or thousands of people peacefully (and cleanly) making use of the
public beaches in these "exclusive" areas for the entire summer. Keep it
clean, civilized, respectable, don't leave trash behind and be considerate. In
other words, give absolutely no reason to label you negatively in any way.

~~~
socalnate1
Probably because there are about a million other more important injustices to
work on first.

~~~
redblacktree
Yes, but doesn't this just feel deliciously like "sticking it to the man?"
These are public beaches that the most well-off among us would like to keep
for themselves. Not only that, they use extremely underhanded tactics to do
so.

~~~
jmduke
_" sticking it to the man?"_

In the grand scheme of things, I'd argue that occupying a beach to stick it to
the man isn't a great way to spend time.

~~~
methodin
If you are going to a beach it's much better to be sticking it to the man
while you are there.

~~~
redblacktree
Besides, who doesn't like the beach?

------
gkop
Here's the Kickstarter campaign -
[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/escapeapps/opening-
this-...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/escapeapps/opening-this-summer-
the-malibu-beaches-0)

~~~
MasterScrat
Is it just me or is $30,000 a _lot_ for an app?

I know there's some research involved but that still sounds highly expansive.

------
Arjuna
Regarding Broad Beach... here is a PDF [1] with some good detail on beach
access. There are 2 access points that are open to the public from Broad Beach
Road. The PDF also has photos of all of the properties, and detail on what
part of the beach is available to the public.

[1]
[http://www.coastal.ca.gov/access/BroadBeachCoastalAccess.pdf](http://www.coastal.ca.gov/access/BroadBeachCoastalAccess.pdf)

------
michaelwww
I read this as Malibu homeowners scammed by $30K Kickstarter campaign.

------
brownbat
99% Invisible had a story on secret staircases in California, left over from
the WPA, and a time when public infrastructure projects for pedestrians was a
thing.

Thing about the WPA, it had a lot of really talented artists and sculptors
contributed to public works, so you get some magnificently beautiful
constructions, if you can find them.

Apparently a lot of landowners try to fence off or discourage access to the
public walkways though, and there's an underground movement to keep access
open to these public city spaces.

[http://99percentinvisible.org/post/45876810693/episode-75-se...](http://99percentinvisible.org/post/45876810693/episode-75-secret-
staircases)

------
ljoshua
I think the real story here is the use of Kickstarter to remove the risk from
further developments on the Android app. If you want to go ahead and create
something, but are worried about it panning out, this starts to open up new
options.

It's not the first time it's been done, but it's encouraging to see creators
being able to deliver to those who want their products with less question
marks in the process.

~~~
HNJohnC
I think the real story is how easy it is to scam people out of 30k for doing
what could be done in a weekend with Google maps and some info from the
authorities.

------
thereallurch
Seems like some of these homeowners would pay $30k to not have this program,
or for some control over the final product. I could imagine some rich guy
paying $15k to keep his section of beach off the program.

~~~
rocky1138
Perhaps this is their idea of monetization for their app!

:P

------
whyenot
In the comments to the Sean Parker / Big Sur Wedding story that was posted
recently, at least one person described the California Coastal Commission as a
bunch of thugs. It's largely thanks to the CCC enforcing easement requirements
on beach front homeowners, including some very powerful people, that there is
any public access at all in places like Malibu.

------
peter303
This happens too with public land trails in the Rockies (near Boulder). The
nearby landoweners remove signs, plant over trails, etc.

------
dot
The iPhone app is now live: [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/our-malibu-
beaches/id5656361...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/our-malibu-
beaches/id565636167?mt=8)

------
tlrobinson
Ah yes. I remember in 2005 some friends and I hung out at Carbon Beach in
front of David Geffen's house soon after he lost a court battle...
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Geffen#Court_battles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Geffen#Court_battles)

edit: photo [http://i.imgur.com/zCQEfZY.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/zCQEfZY.jpg)

------
nakovet
Those same things happen in Brazil too, wealthy people put gates, make the
entrance hard to find and even do lobby to have people enforcing paid parking
to restrain access to _public_ beaches, there is no such a thing as private
beach, but somehow they manage to fake the "ownership".

------
robotcookies
Glad that Californians have this option. Beaches should be public on the East
coast as well.

------
buza
"Malibu homeowners intentionally obscure public beach access areas with fake
signs and hidden access. This is not only ridiculously selfish, it is
illegal."

Better or worse than just flat out preventing access whatsoever?

[http://www.indiawest.com/news/9799-Surfers-Sue-for-Access-
to...](http://www.indiawest.com/news/9799-Surfers-Sue-for-Access-to-
Billionaire-Vinod-Khosla-s-Beach.html)

------
jmspring
Reminds me of the challenges Half Moon Bay is having with Vihnod Kholsa and
beach access. At least, when they sue, the Malibu residents own up to it --
see Streisand vs Adelman. Vihnod is hiding behind things. sad.

[http://www.pehub.com/2013/03/15/the-surfrider-foundation-
tak...](http://www.pehub.com/2013/03/15/the-surfrider-foundation-takes-ubervc-
vinod-khosla/)

------
patrickserrano
This a great project. Living on the east end of Long Island, we tend to have
similar (although seemingly less extreme) situations with public beaches and
waterways. I'd love to see something like this here too, so when I'm getting
yelled at I can point out that I am in fact on a public beach.

------
thehme
When access is blocked illegally, it is just totally wrong and this app will
certainly help those who just want to enjoy some beach time. It would be nice
if the entire coast could have an app like this, on both East and West...oh
and South.

------
gorrillamcd
Awesome. I've never been to Malibu, but I can definitely see this as a useful
app if I ever do decide to go. If the locals have trouble finding the public
beaches, I can't imagine I'd be able to do it without some help.

------
bonchibuji
'Right to roam' in Nordic countries comes to mind.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam)

~~~
arethuza
Not just Nordic countries, we have in Scotland as well:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam#Scotland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam#Scotland)

------
unclebucknasty
I'm thinking if you pay me $30K to port a relatively simple IOS UI to Android,
then _that_ is the business. No need to sell anything (else).

------
taude
Why does this need to be an app? Seems like building out a website to
distribute the information would be better.

~~~
dagw
Websites already exists and have been linked to by other people. This app just
makes it easier to find and use that info from a mobile phone.

------
towski
Why would you drive all the way up to Malibu when LA has an uninterrupted
stretch of beach that is 50 miles long?

------
victorology
Wow, they could use this for Hawaii. We deal with a lot of the same stuff
here.

------
wilfra
I'm in Santa Monica (just down the road from Malibu) right now and decided to
go checkout the public access path next to David Geffen's house[1] after
reading this today.

I was able to park across the street with no problem (plenty of spaces) and
walk alongside his house onto the beach. I walked really far and passed many
people who I assume were homeowners based on how they were dressed (no
shoes/bags/purses or beach toys) and acting (walking close to the houses etc).
All offered polite smiles and several let their dogs run up to me and seemed
to expect me to pet/play with them. Not a single person gave me an odd or
disapproving look - though one couple (really old white guy with a
20-something black girl) went pretty far out of their way to avoid the path I
was walking on. I figured at least one of them was famous or something, as the
reason.

When I was leaving though, I went back past Geffen's house (only way out) and
what I assume was his private security guard (plainclothes but looked like a
Marine) came walking straight at me staring at me and then got in a car in the
driveway. I look across the street to my car and I see a cop car parked in the
turning late in the middle of the road with two cops in it. I decided to take
an extra long time wiping the sand off of my feet to soak it all in. The
security guy eventually pulled the car out of the driveway and alongside the
cops, I assume they were talking through open windows but with traffic and
distance couldn't hear. Then the guy pulls his car in front of the cops in the
turning lane, does a U-Turn and parks right in front of my car on the opposite
side of the street.

There was no cross-walk and I didn't want to give the cops a reason to legally
harass me, so I walked on the sidewalk right in front of David Geffen's house
and gestured to the cops asking if I could cross the street illegally. They
both just sorta shrugged and looked back at traffic and nodded - meaning if
you want to risk getting hit by a car, go for it.

So after a couple of minutes with these cops staring right at me, I find an
opening and dart over to my car. The whole time the security dude is still
sitting there parked in front of my car. I put my stuff inside and pull away,
on the left two cops are staring at me driving off and on the right the
security dude is also staring at me. I waved to all three of them and drove
away.

So I can confirm the beach is public and the homeowners seem like really nice
people who don't mind that at all - other than David Geffen, who seems to try
to use his private security and the police to intimidate people into not using
the path.

I'm taking a date back there tomorrow.

[1][http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/fashion/sundaystyles/05bea...](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/fashion/sundaystyles/05beach.html?pagewanted=all)

~~~
sireat
This sounds right out of Raymond Chandler's The Big Sleep (or Big Lebowski if
one wants something more modern)

------
kristopolous
This has been thoroughly covered in the NYT, on BBC, and NPR weeks ago. Is
this news to anyone still?

------
sixQuarks
why does this app cost $30,000? They should be able to get a high quality app
like this developed for 1/10th the cost.

~~~
gst
With 1/10th of the cost ($3000) you can pay a good programmer for something
like a week at most. Do you think this app will be completely done within one
week?

~~~
megablast
As someone who has written many GPS apps like this, once you have the data you
could write it in a day. And since there is a free PDF with all the data in
it, you just need to extract that data.

~~~
wavefunction
Sounds like you should have started a kickstarter and provided an app for
whatever you felt was reasonable. Or even done it for free.

But you didn't.

~~~
megablast
You are right, but I can't do kickstarter because I am not an american. And I
missed this issue. But I think these guys are having a huge laugh to the bank,
getting such a huge sum.

------
joshuaheard
Beaches in California are public only by historical accident. There are plenty
of public beaches with facilities for visitors like lots of beach space,
parking, restrooms, and restaurants. Santa Monica, for instance is about 15
minutes from Malibu and has all that. Why is the homeowner the bad guy for
wanting a little privacy without hordes of people partying all night in his
back yard, blocking his parking, leaving fast food trash everywhere, and
pissing in his bushes?

~~~
comrade_ogilvy
While I do sympathize with the homeowners when it comes to resenting poor
behavior by visitors, that thing you are calling "his backyard" is not his. He
never paid for it.

English Common Law encodes many centuries of traditions about easement for
travel. This topic is not a new thing. That an area might bear ever more
visitors over the march of years is just a fact of life.

