
USS Pueblo - cameron_b
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_(AGER-2)
======
peeters
As interesting as the vessel is the noncompliance of the crew in being used as
propaganda:

> This treatment turned worse when the North Koreans realized that crewmen
> were secretly giving them "the finger" in staged propaganda photos.

and

> Eventually the North Koreans threatened to execute his men in front of him,
> and Bucher relented and agreed to "confess to his and the crew's
> transgression." Bucher wrote the confession since a "confession" by
> definition needed to be written by the confessor himself. They verified the
> meaning of what he wrote, but failed to catch the pun when he said "We paean
> the DPRK [North Korea]. We paean their great leader Kim Il Sung". (Bucher
> pronounced "paean" as "pee on.")

I wasn't even familiar with the verb "paean", brilliant of the commander to
know that non-native speakers wouldn't catch on to the idiosynchronies of
using an uncommon homophone as an insult.

~~~
ceejayoz
I find tales of POWs resisting where they can fascinating.

One of my favourites is
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Hegdahl](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Hegdahl):

He got blown overboard by a gun turret's blast, a story which his
interrogators found so unbelievable they assumed he was an idiot and gave him
free run of the POW camp, which he used to gather intel and sabotage vehicles.

------
Warwick-P
I have been on the USS Pueblo. When I was in North Korea, this was one of the
many military monuments that foreign visitors were required to tour when
visiting the country. The guides who took us on this boat made sure to
emphasize how this was an armed warship that was committing an act of
international aggression and violating a sovereign nation's borders, and which
was captured by an heroic North Korean military mission. A couple of extra
photos: [https://imgur.com/a/8DDBrz1](https://imgur.com/a/8DDBrz1)

~~~
nodesocket
What nationality are you and when did you visit N. Korea?

~~~
Warwick-P
I visited in 2011 as a South African citizen. I'm now an American citizen.

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ruddct
Hah, fun! Visited this a few years back. It's in great condition, particularly
memorable things were the bullet holes (all highlighted in red paint) and the
intro video[0], which is worth watching if only to experience the extremely
distinct North Korean English accent.

[0]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95qtd2Mwnpg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95qtd2Mwnpg)

~~~
daveslash
How were you able to visit it, honest question? As an American myself, I
wouldn't dare set foot in that country. Was a visit there an easy experience?
Would you go back?

~~~
jackpirate
There's a school called the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology
([https://pust.co](https://pust.co)) that invites foreigners to come teach
North Korean citizens.

I spent 2 semesters teaching computer science at PUST and it was a wonderful
experience. You really get to know the locals (both students and staff) much
better than on a short tourist trip. Some highlights include teaching
Dijkstra's algorithm by showing them google maps images of Pyongyang (which
they hadn't seen from space before), talking about Snowden and how he used
encryption to hide from the NSA, and having North Korean citizens contribute
to open source machine learning projects (vowpal wabbit and mlpack). All the
students I met with were also surprisingly well informed about both events in
the US and American history.

You also get to do as much touristy stuff as you'd like. Two highlights for me
were, visiting the Pueblo and the subway system. As a former naval nuclear
officer, it was quite surreal to visit these places. The subway system is one
of the few places in the world that US nuclear weapons cannot effectively
target because it is buried so far underground (>100m). You have to spend
about 5 minutes riding the longest escalator I've ever seen to get from the
surface to the trains. It's a daily reminder to North Korean citizens that
they've been targeted by US nuclear weapons for decades.

Educational exchanges have a long history of improving relations between
countries, and so I'm a huge advocate for the PUST exchanges. Unfortunately, I
had to stop going because President Trump no longer allows Americans to visit
North Korea. If any non-Americans are interested in going, however, shoot me
an email (mike@izbicki.me) and I'm happy to chat more with you about the
experience.

~~~
Accujack
Considering the students were allowed contact with an American and allowed the
free access to the Internet and software you describe, I conclude they were
children of the elites of the country.

Probably they were given this education so they could learn to deal with
westerners and potentially to improve their training for cyber warfare and
intelligence gathering in the west.

I'd bet within a few miles of the experience you enjoyed that there were
families starving in substandard housing.

~~~
jackpirate
> Considering the students were allowed contact with an American and allowed
> the free access to the Internet and software you describe, I conclude they
> were children of the elites of the country.

My assessment is different.

I currently teach at an "elite" US college (liberal arts college ranked top-5
nationally with more than 20% of students having parents in the top 1% income
bracket) and previously taught at a mid-ranked UC school. My impression is
that the student demographics at PUST more closely resemble the mid-ranked UC
school than the elite liberal arts school. The elite students in the DPRK tend
to prefer their version of elite colleges like Kim Il Sung and Kim Chaek
universities. For example, students from these other universities are
regularly lauded in national newspapers for their achievements (which exceed
those of PUST students), but PUST students have never been mentioned in a
national newspaper as far as I am aware. My understanding is that students at
these other universities have similar levels of internet access as students at
PUST, but they do not have regular in person contact with westerners.

> Probably they were given this education so they could learn to deal with
> westerners and potentially to improve their training for cyber warfare and
> intelligence gathering in the west.

As someone who has professional experience running/developing cyberwarfare and
nuclear military operations with the US military, I can unequivocally state
that the work I did at PUST was not developing these capabilities for North
Korea.

Western experts who study the DPRK largely agree with me that educational
exchanges are a great way to improve relations between the US and DPRK
building on the model of how educational exchanges improved relations between
the US and USSR. See for example [https://www.38north.org/2010/11/pyongyang-
university-and-nk-...](https://www.38north.org/2010/11/pyongyang-university-
and-nk-just-do-it/)

> I'd bet within a few miles of the experience you enjoyed that there were
> families starving in substandard housing.

One of the major goals of the PUST project is to help improve and
internationalize the North Korean economy. The longterm effect will be to
improve the standard of living of all North Koreans.

------
tych0
Another interesting spy ship saga is:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident)

------
chimi
I always wonder about claims like this where one nation says a ship was within
their borders and the other nation says it was in international waters. This
USS Pueblo is one incident. Israel attacked a Turkish ship in international
waters. Iran attacked oil tankers in international waters.

All these incidents ... I can't help but think we never grow up as human
beings all the way until becoming international super powers.

It's like a geopolitical "I'm not touching you."
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgXDYiHhp5Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgXDYiHhp5Y)

It's bullying behavior. It's an aggressive provocation.

Will we _ever_ grow up?

~~~
ocdtrekkie
My favorite in particular in this line of "geopolitical I'm not touching you"
is what we call "freedom of navigation exercises". The US runs through the
South China Sea on them all the time.

Basically, China says it's their territory, the US says it is international
waters. And so we "prove" it by regularly traveling through it with US
warships for no other purpose then to prove we can.

~~~
pdonis
_> China says it's their territory, the US says it is international waters.
And so we "prove" it by regularly traveling through it with US warships for no
other purpose then to prove we can._

Suppose the US claimed that the entire Gulf of Mexico was US territory. Would
people be as sympathetic to that as they appear to be to China claiming that
the entire South China Sea is Chinese territory? (Note that the South China
Sea is more than twice as large as the Gulf of Mexico, and less of its
coastline is part of China as compared with the amount of Gulf of Mexico
coastline that is part of the US.)

~~~
Bendingo
> Suppose the US claimed that the entire Gulf of Mexico was US territory

Since China is a long way from the Gulf of Mexico, and has no need to sail
there, I'm confident that China couldn't care less about this.

On the other hand, The South China Sea is very important to China, and very
far away from USA -- why does USA care so much about it?

Perhaps you could also comment of USA claims over the Northern Sea Route
(which lies within Russia’s Exclusive Economic Zone) ? [0], [1]

[0] [https://www.rt.com/business/423913-northern-sea-route-
us/](https://www.rt.com/business/423913-northern-sea-route-us/)?

[1] [https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/geopolitical-
conse...](https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/geopolitical-consequences-
of-melting-arctic-ice-russia-canada-us-northern-sea-route-shipping-
natural-a8229306.html)?

~~~
pdonis
_> Since China is a long way from the Gulf of Mexico, and has no need to sail
there, I'm confident that China couldn't care less about this._

First, many Chinese flag ships sail through the Gulf of Mexico, so I think
China does care.

Second, even if China didn't care, many other countries do. And the US, unlike
China, respects the rights of other countries to freedom of the seas.

 _> The South China Sea is very important to China, and very far away from USA
-- why does USA care so much about it?_

First, because many US flag ships sail through the South China Sea. We trade
with many countries other than China that have coastlines on that sea. You
know that, right?

Second, because, just as with the Gulf of Mexico, many other countries have
ships that sail through the South China Sea, and there are internationally
agreed rules about international waters and freedom of the seas, which, as
noted above, China does not respect the way the US does. The only way to
enforce such rules is for countries that uphold them to take action against
countries that do not.

 _> Perhaps you could also comment of USA claims over the Northern Sea Route
(which lies within Russia’s Exclusive Economic Zone) ?_

This case is an excellent illustration of the proper way to negotiate rules
regarding freedom of the seas: to notify other countries of something you
would like to see happen, and then have a diplomatic dialogue with them. As
opposed to, oh, say, just asserting that a huge chunk of ocean is your
territorial waters, in contravention of international law and treaties.

Also, since you mentioned Exclusive Economic Zones, you will note that the US
is _not_ saying it wants to exploit resources in this zone; it is only saying
it wants it to be a transport corridor. Which, according to current
international agreements, it already is everywhere outside 12 nautical miles
from Russia's coast.

------
slg
>the U.S. government has publicly stated on several occasions that the return
of the still commissioned Navy vessel is a priority

Is this just to save face or is there some other reason we would want the ship
back?

~~~
BitwiseFool
I imagine it's an esprit de corps goal related to the 'no man left behind'
sentiment in the armed forces.

------
mc32
A foolhardy idea would be to surreptitiously go there while some other action
is happening elsewhere and tug it out.

Now, it’d be difficult to pull off and offers no upside and lots of downside,
but it’d be very intrepid to pull off.

~~~
nostrademons
Might be an interesting technology demonstration for robotics. Sail a robot
submarine across the Pacific, surface in the Potong River, release a few
drones to cut the mooring lines and slip a tow onto it, and tow it out to
international waters.

They shoot at you? Honey badger don't care, there ain't no people there.

~~~
walshemj
MM a high tech cutting out - in the old day they used ships boats and sailors
and marines to do that

------
RolloTom
Ten years ago two guys managed to enter in Noth Korea by train from Russia
spending 36 hours without a guide.

[https://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/](https://vienna-
pyongyang.blogspot.com/)

They obviously went to see the USS Pueblo as well... It's kind of a long read,
but very interesting, imho.

~~~
nyolfen
a nice video of the trip:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1mzXFAzUjQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1mzXFAzUjQ)

------
pmjordan
Another interesting incident, this one involving a North Korean spy ship:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Amami-
Ōshima](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Amami-Ōshima)

The wreckage is worth a visit if you find yourself in Tokyo with a day to
spare for a trip to Yokohama. (Half a day will do easily if that's literally
all you go to Yokohama for, but you can spend a pleasant few hours there, so
may as well make a day of it.)

------
parliament32
>While thousands of American prisoners of war were awarded medals, the crew
members of Pueblo did not receive them. Instead, they were classified as
"detainees". It was not until Congress passed a law overturning this decision
that the medals were awarded; the crew finally received the medals at San
Diego in May 1990.

Any thoughts on why this was so? Why would the crew not be classified PoWs?
Did the US not want to admit they were in a war with PRK or what?

~~~
pvg
There was considerable controversy surrounding the events and the actions of
the crew and leadership. There was a Navy court of inquiry, conflicting
accusations of dereliction of duty, cover-ups, whitewashing, official
reprimands, etc. Google up 'Pueblo court of inquiry' but keep in mind it's a
massive, contentious and inconclusive clickhole.

------
02thoeva
Visited this last year, remarkably good condition. The Koreans were very keen
to point out the size of the armoury and guns on board the ship.

~~~
openasocket
I suppose that's to be expected from the North Koreans, but it's rather funny,
since the ship is actually very lightly armed. Wikipedia says it only has 2 M2
Brownings aboard, does the North Korean museum claim it was armed with more,
or do they claim that's heavily armed?

~~~
brianshaler
I think they emphasized the weaponry because the US billed it as the capture
of an environmental research ship in international waters, while the DPRK
preferred to position it as a thwarted military incursion into sovereign
Korean waters.

------
dkarp
Google Maps:
[https://www.google.com/maps/place/USS+Pueblo/@39.0403653,125...](https://www.google.com/maps/place/USS+Pueblo/@39.0403653,125.7395677,225m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m12!1m6!3m5!1s0x357e1b5b97dd3049:0x7e4295d5012fa42a!2sUSS+Pueblo!8m2!3d39.0404785!4d125.739788!3m4!1s0x357e1b5b97dd3049:0x7e4295d5012fa42a!8m2!3d39.0404785!4d125.739788)

------
NedIsakoff
I went there with YPT last year. Highly recommended:
[https://www.youngpioneertours.com/](https://www.youngpioneertours.com/)

------
dredmorbius
Edward R. Murphy (XO), personal history of the incident:

[https://invidio.us/watch?v=FQg6yJnW6tQ](https://invidio.us/watch?v=FQg6yJnW6tQ)

------
everyone
That would make a good movie.

~~~
ruchir_21hj
That's exactly what I was thinking. This would make a great movie/book.

