
Diluted blood plasma found to reverse aging in mice - apsec112
https://newatlas.com/medical/diluted-blood-plasma-reverse-aging-in-mice
======
DougWebb
This is basically _filtering_ the plasma to remove harmful stuff, which is
present in the older mice but not the younger. That's probably because the
older mice's liver and kidneys aren't as effective as they used to be. The
conjoined experiment worked because the young mouses liver and kidneys were
filtering for both of the mice.

This sort of filtering (which includes albumin replacement) is already
available for humans. My ex-wife was hospitalized when her liver failed. Her
blood was full of toxins, which overwhelmed her kidneys and eventually caused
them to fail too. The toxins in the blood had a lot of bad effects, and would
have killed her. While she was waiting for a liver donation, she had to
undergo blood dialysis pretty much every day. She was hooked up to a machine
that pumped her blood out, filtered it, replaced albumin (which was lost in
the filter), and then pumped it back in. Each treatment took about two hours,
and was really stressful and dangerous. Her blood pressure had to be carefully
managed, and the machine couldn't keep her blood at the exactly correct
temperature so it ached when going back in.

Bad as it was, it kept her blood clean enough for her to hang on until she got
a transplant. She was on kidney dialysis for a year after that until she got a
kidney transplant too.

This was incredibly expensive, because of the albumin. Also incredibly
dangerous. You would not want to do this as an elective procedure.

~~~
epicureanideal
I think the medical care or something else was expensive. I did a search and I
see 20% albumin solution was about $8 per 50ml.

[https://www.drugs.com/price-guide/human-albumin-
grifols](https://www.drugs.com/price-guide/human-albumin-grifols)

I searched and apparently there’s about 3 liters of plasma in the body.

So that’s only about $480 for a full replacement of the body’s plasma, or $240
for what this research did.

It’s probably more expensive because of the machine for filtering the blood
and so on. But it doesn’t seem that the raw materials for the replacement
solution are expensive.

~~~
jolmg
It would seem to be a pretty big factor if I'm reading correctly that it'd be
$480/day.

------
gwerbret
For context, Irina Conboy (the senior author of this work) has been publishing
on the concept of tissue regeneration for a long time now, but I think it's a
bit of an exaggeration to consider this line of work to constitute a reversal
of aging.

This New Atlas article alludes to work done in 2005, which was a paper Irina
published in Nature [1] while she was a postdoc in Tom Rando's lab. They had
joined the circulatory systems of young and old mice, and showed that this
process could improve the regeneration of both blood and muscle.
Significantly, they had highlighted a cellular pathway, called Notch, which
they said was responsible for this effect.

In the years since, Irina has focused on the same models -- regeneration of
blood and muscle -- but has been looking for a better way than Notch to
explain the original findings. It's clear that there are factors in young
blood to which _some_ old cells can respond favorably. Importantly, however,
none of these measures actually _reverse_ aging in the ways that matter
(lengthening telomeres, correcting oxidative damage, etc). Experimental mice
treated this way also _don 't_ live any longer than usual, except for the very
specific cases where you're treating a disorder that would normally shorten
their lifespans.

1:
[https://www.nature.com/articles/nature03260](https://www.nature.com/articles/nature03260)

------
AlexanderNull
I was doing the double red donation for a while before running out of
hematocrit. Read about this study and decided to go back to donating but this
time just doing the standard whole blood so I could dilute plasma a bit. Will
update this post with results in 200 years if this works!

~~~
epicureanideal
It would be interesting if they would try the same research but reduced to
just doing blood-donation-level blood extraction from the mice over a period
of time.

Unfortunately, without REPLACING your blood with something, the percent
concentration of anything harmful in your blood with be the same. I wonder if
it requires a quick replacement with a large percentage of the saline solution
to have any effect.

Quick links:

[https://www.umms.org/-/media/files/ummc/community/blood-
fact...](https://www.umms.org/-/media/files/ummc/community/blood-facts)

""" The average adult has about 10 pints of blood in his body. Roughly 1 pint
is given during a donation. A healthy donor may donate red blood cells every
56 days """

The original article says HALF the blood plasma was replaced. So if I
understand this correctly, a blood donation would need to be done 5 times to
match the amount taken out.

Is there an option to get a saline solution to replace blood volume when
donating blood?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _without REPLACING your blood with something, the percent concentration of
> anything harmful in your blood with be the same_

Not necessarily. If the process that produced the bad stuff is slower than
serum production, the concentration will be lower. If it’s the same, for
example, if it’s a problem with the serum production processes themselves, it
won’t.

------
Mouse47
I submitted this to reddit with limited discussion
:[https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/hmu8dc/diluting...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/hmu8dc/diluting_blood_plasma_rejuvenates_tissue_reverses/)

I'm 29 years old and I've started donating blood regularly in an effort to
achieve the same effect. Ideally you'd donate plasma, but there is an
important difference between the treatment in the study and donating plasma:
in the study, they replace the plasma with saline and _albumin_. Donating
plasma does not replenish your albumin. Albumin is regenerated relatively
quickly, however.

~~~
graeme
In blood donations you do not have any replacement either, correct? So from
that perspective is there any advantage over plasma donations?

~~~
citizenkeen
You can donate plasma twice a week, as opposed to every other month for blood.

~~~
excalibur
Also you typically get paid a small fee for donating plasma.

------
random3
Here David Sinclair’s response back in May
[https://twitter.com/davidasinclair/status/125991292869585715...](https://twitter.com/davidasinclair/status/1259912928695857152?s=21)

------
rajup
If you're interested in the science of aging I highly recommend the book
"Lifespan: Why we age and why we don't have to" by David A. Sinclair a pioneer
in this field. Detailed book with tons of citations but still accessible to
the layperson.

~~~
chrispeel
I found some of the science interesting in that book; my main memory is that
Sinclair is annoyingly arrogant and self-centered. I returned the book.

------
odyssey7
A blog post about existing information about plasma exchange in humans:

[https://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/2020/06/29/human-
tria...](https://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/2020/06/29/human-trials-of-
plasma-exchange/)

------
lm28469
"in mice" .... Everyone here is talking about starting to give blood to mimic
that study but on any other "mice test prove XYZ" every single comment is
"mice != humans".

I treat all of these articles the same way as I treat news about breakthrough
new battery technology, aka: maybe it works in a lab but until it's out there
it's as good as useless. Simply google "mice drug lifespan" and enjoy the
hundreds of articles promising long, alzheimer free, life "in the near
future". You can even use google search tool and look back at 2015, 2010,
2005...

~~~
Mouse47
That's a good point! The only reason I'm comfortable self-experimenting on
this one is that 1) there's already evidence that frequent blood donors
outlive non-donors (obviously that's an observational study, but still) and 2)
there's actually already a clinical use for plasma replacement therapy in
Alzheimer's that's roughly identical to the one done in the study.

In addition - they theorize that it's a buildup of bad elements in the blood
that causes some runaway process that contributes to aging, so it might follow
that less extreme interventions (~15% removal of blood plasma, like plasma
donation, which takes around 800 ml out of the ~5500 ml of plasma in your
body) done more frequently might provide the same effect.

You're right though - totally unproven.

------
graeme
Due to a past (super low risk) medical condition, I cannot donate blood.
There’s not really any other way to replicate this, right?

~~~
NegativeLatency
But you can throw blood away

~~~
graeme
Right but there’s no organization devoted to extracting blood and throwing it
away.

~~~
gruez
How hard is it to learn how to draw your own blood? eg. what the nurses do
when you give a blood sample for lab tests.

~~~
fb03
For tests, healthcare professionals draw a _very_ small amount (some tubes
hold less than 5ml, each).

Donating blood takes upwards of 550ml out of your system. It's in another
league entirely. They unfortunately cannot be compared like this.

~~~
joshxyz
half a liter sweet jesus thats a lot

~~~
stoneman24
“That’s almost an arm full” old Tony Hancock reference for the older British
reader (google Tony Hancock blood donor Sketch).

------
Igelau
> making conjoined twins of old and young mice so they shared blood and organs

You say conjoined twins, I say chimaera. That's freaky mad science right
there.

------
soonoutoftime
Previous discussion from June:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23556209](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23556209)

------
MattGaiser
So now we really need to figure out how to grow blood.

Edit: nevermind. I misread the original study and thought that was what they
had done.

~~~
morei
Isn't the point here that it's not being replaced with blood? just saline +
albumin?

~~~
Mouse47
Exactly. In fact, the authors note that the effect on their own defined
markers of aging was _more_ significant when using saline + albumin than when
using young blood.

>In our paper, we looked at the hippocampal neurogenesis, which is the
formation of new neurons in the area of the brain that is responsible for
learning and memory. We saw an eightfold increase in all the animals after
neutral blood exchange, which is much higher than anything else that was
observed either by heterochronic parabiosis or reported by young blood
infusion. In old mice transfused with 50% young blood, we did not see an
improvement in neurogenesis, which, again, puts a question mark on potency of
young blood in old mammals. Does young blood by itself work as a medicine or
not? If you dilute old blood by 50%, in neutral age blood exchange – with
albumin-supplemented saline, there is quickly better neurogenesis.

------
sova
So not a "blood letting," but a "blood plasma letting," very different, you
see.

------
NegativeLatency
Is it possible to make synthetic albumin? Doesn't all of it come from humans?

------
macawfish
This reminds me a whole lot of traditional wet cupping techniques.

------
desireco42
This can also explain why if you turn vegan can improve on your health and
life.

FYI, I am not vegan and my brief stint didn't produce endless energy, but I
can see how this could work.

~~~
coder4life
I turned at 49, two and a half years ago.

My reasons are many. Besides the moral side, I think having a lower % of
methionine in my diet then someone who eats meat/eggs/dairy will help me live
longer. I also lost 70 pounds, and nothing else I ever did got me to lose and
appreciable amount of weight for long.

------
keyle
Could it really be this simple?

I have this theory that if we all started to live forever we'd all kill each
other going mad. There is only so much mental trauma a human can take so
extending life would aggravate this to a point of no return.

This is why the cycle of life is so precious. A minimum of second hand
information is passed between generation as we get through a lifetime. We
distil the best and worst.

But we would become so detached and apathic, living forever sounds like hell.

~~~
javert
> There is only so much mental trauma a human can take

My experience has been that I get mentally healthier as I age.

For reference, I'm 33, so the "experiment" is far from complete, but early
results are quite promising.

As an aside, I attribute this to using my mind in a better way than other
people. I have achieved this through great effort and investment of time,
which has come at the expense of other areas of my life.

There is no instruction manual for the human mind, but we need one.

As another aside, your position is anti-life and anti-humanity. That isn't
supposed to be an argument that stands on its own; I'm just pointing it out.

~~~
fredophile
How many traumatic experiences have you had? Have you ever been permanently
injured? Have you directly experienced a war? If you lived to be 1000 what are
the odds that your answers to these or similar questions would change? Just
because you have been fortunate enough to not have experienced major trauma at
33 does not mean you will continue to be this lucky.

~~~
javert
I have experienced major trauma. I think it's enough to justify what I've
said. I'm not willing to answer specific questions about that or give you a
list.

I don't think you are right to assume that a 33 year old has not experienced
major trauma. That would not even be a valid assumption for a much younger
person.

I'm sorry if my original comment was demeaning to other people who have
experienced trauma. I can see how it could be. I meant to give people hope
that you can heal (at least enough to get on) in many cases. I did not mean to
put people down for struggling with trauma. I certainly have struggled with
it.

~~~
fredophile
Based on what you had written I was assuming that you had not experienced
major trauma. The questions were intended more to point out ways that someone
could be 33, or significantly younger, and have major trauma and were not
intended to get specifics about the trauma you suffered. I am well aware that
young people can suffer major trauma and this was clearly not the best way to
get my point across.

I'm glad that you were able to get better but not everyone can. Your anecdote
doesn't invalidate my point. If you lived long enough, statistically you'd be
extremely likely to suffer from a major trauma that you would not recover
from.

------
236dev
[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/01/sunday-review/blood-
plasm...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/01/sunday-review/blood-plasma-
industry.html)

Somewhat related, but blood made up 2% of total US exports in 2016. We are the
only developed country that allows people to sell their blood. It's depressing
to know that the rich will literally be living off the poor's blood.

~~~
saas_sam
Most every advanced material good and service that is cheap today was once
rare and expensive. Prices fell as the methods for producing those goods and
services became more efficient. If the rich are paying for something as exotic
as YouthBlood™ this should delight you, as it is only a matter of time before
producers of said product will find ways to scale and cheapen it.

~~~
236dev
Maybe I'm not autistically analyzing this like other people in this thread. I
just wanted to point out that the article mentioned taking young people's and
putting it in old mice for better living. Currently the poor are exploited for
cheap blood because many have no other option.

~~~
ThrowawayP
> " _autistically_ "

I think many of us would appreciate it if you did not use autism as a negative
label.

~~~
236dev
Why not? Autistic people have a certain way of doing things, so it seems like
a valid comparison to me

