
Ask HN: How close together are your bus stops? - superqwert
In London UK, distances between bus stops are on average between 100 and 200m away from each other.<p>I&#x27;m interested in finding out whether other cities in the world may have comparably short distances between bus stops and whether they have any datasets that could be used to calculate bus stop distance distributions.
======
mtmail
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Transit_Feed_Specifica...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Transit_Feed_Specification)
is the most used file format. Public transport companies used to submit their
information to Google Maps and similar (the 'G' used to stand for 'Google').
You can find those searching for 'GTFS <name of city>' in various open data
portals.

Alternatively OpenStreetMap is a huge global dataset. Buses are a small part
of
[https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport](https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport)
It's easy to extract bus stops
[https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API](https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API)
([https://overpass-turbo.eu/](https://overpass-turbo.eu/)) but you're probably
interested in routes as well. It's a rabbit hole of complexity, e.g. a bus
terminal is multiple bus stops, some buses skip stops based on time of day,
weekday, season (school buses), some stops are just for drivers to take a
break or refuel, direction of route matters.

The transport view on
[https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/21.3308/-157.8868&laye...](https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/21.3308/-157.8868&layers=T)
is a pretty nice visualization. For specific questions on OSM tools there is
[https://help.openstreetmap.org/](https://help.openstreetmap.org/) and a
mailing list [https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-
transit](https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit)

~~~
ashurov
I was involved in a project where we could identify Transit deserts
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_desert](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_desert)).
Sadly the new administration cancelled this project. We were using GTFS data
and US Census data to identify these. Quite interesting stuff. Perhaps the OP
is interested in that as well.

------
g_sch
In NYC, it depends heavily on the bus line. Some stop nearly every block
(which can be as little as every 100m) whereas some have more widely-spaced
stops.

The buses here are notorious for running very slowly (and thus behind
schedule), and one of the proposals to speed some some slow buses is to
eliminate stops on lines where they are densely clustered. It's become a
subject of considerable debate, as residents and in particular older and
disabled people are usually against consolidation, whereas most others accept
it as a necessary cost of improving service.

The M14, which runs along 14th Street in Manhattan, is an example of where
this is happening right now. Currently, the bus spends around 25% of its time
standing in stations because it stops pretty much every block. There's a plan
to eliminate some of its stops, but it's unclear whether it will succeed.
Here's a good read on the subject:
[https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/04/19/never-stop-
stopping-r...](https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/04/19/never-stop-stopping-
removing-bus-stops-isnt-easy-in-new-york-city-or-anywhere-else/)

~~~
cletus
I was going to mention NYC too but in terms of the Subway, which is related.

The "local" stops on a lot of Subway lines really shouldn't be there. I'm
looking at you 18th Street, 28th Street, 50th Street and so on. 18th Street in
particular is 4 blocks away (where 1 block = <1 minute walking) from 14th
Street and the entrances to 14th Street will often extend up to 16th Street
anyway (with the platform potentially right underneath).

In the other direction 23rd Street is 5 blocks away.

The Subway spends billions of dollars a year on power. Most of that power (for
trains) is spent accelerating so every stop counts.

I expect the same people who are against consolidation of bus stops are
against consolidation of Subway stops.

Honestly I personally have never taken a bus in NYC despite living here for
nearly a decade. Distances in Manhattan are just so relatively short.

~~~
umanwizard
When I visited Shanghai, I noticed that late at night when there are not many
passengers, they will kick everybody off the train at a random stop. They do
this with a few trains in a row until there are enough people waiting in the
station to fill up a train to some acceptable level.

I assume that the point of consolidating everybody into one train like this is
so they can avoid wasting power decelerating/accelerating on a bunch of
trains. I.e. just run all the empty ones to the terminus without stopping.

It was a bit annoying whenever it happened to us, but I think this is a better
system than getting rid of heavily used local stops entirely.

Edit: As a reply explains, it's possible my description is slightly
inaccurate.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Would this really save much efficiency versus the much less disruptive option
of taking the trains out of commission (for the evening/morning/etc) when they
get to the end of their route?

~~~
umanwizard
I'm really not an expert on subways, so I don't know. But I can only assume
that the people who run the Shanghai metro know what they're doing.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Sorry, shouldn't have framed that as a question directed at you specifically.
:)

------
eequah9L
_Prague_

Per [0] (2001; in Czech), average distance between subway stations is 1038m,
tram stops 500m and bus stops 698m.

A related metric is walking distance from home to public transportation stop.
Per [1] (2011; in Czech), most of people in the city need to walk less than 5
minutes to reach a stop. (There's a table with a breakdown by walking time and
city part in chapter 7.) The same work cites average walking speed as 88.69
m/min, which gives you, for most inhabitants, <450m to reach a public
transportation stop.

[0] [http://envis.praha-
mesto.cz/rocenky/DZ_OO/pril_practexty/BK0...](http://envis.praha-
mesto.cz/rocenky/DZ_OO/pril_practexty/BK03/2_MHD1.pdf) [1]
[https://dspace.cuni.cz/bitstream/handle/20.500.11956/51223/B...](https://dspace.cuni.cz/bitstream/handle/20.500.11956/51223/BPTX_2010_1__0_262146_0_100691.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y)

(EDIT: Updated units.)

~~~
jonsen
_walking speed as 88.69 m /s_

cm/s ?

~~~
gibolt
Czech your math. People there are blazing fast :)

------
ar0
Here is an interesting article about this subject, suggesting a 400m-rule for
walking distance to the next stop: [https://humantransit.org/2010/11/san-
francisco-a-rational-st...](https://humantransit.org/2010/11/san-francisco-a-
rational-stop-spacing-plan.html)

The city of Zurich, Switzerland recommends a tram stop every 300m-600m:
[https://www.stadt-
zuerich.ch/content/dam/stzh/vbz/Deutsch/Ue...](https://www.stadt-
zuerich.ch/content/dam/stzh/vbz/Deutsch/Ueber%20das%20Departement/Publikationen%20und%20Broschueren/Die%20VBZ/RLV230002_SMS_SR_Planungsrichtlinie_Tram_V2.0_140301.pdf)
(page 19)

------
jolopy
In Freiburg/Germany (250k inhabitants), the mean distance between bus stops is
634m, more distant than those of the tram (453m). Freiburg has more trams (72)
than busses (65) running on 44 km of rails and the sum of all bus routes is
160 km. [1]

Trams run in short intervals and they are convenient when they're near, but
switching from tram to bus carries a high time penalty two out of three times.

[1] [https://www.vag-freiburg.de/die-vag/ueber-uns](https://www.vag-
freiburg.de/die-vag/ueber-uns)

------
algorias
For Switzerland, that distance sounds about right, tending more towards 100m
(in major cities). There is bound to be a dataset somewhere: being a tiny
country means that we map everything in great detail, and the government takes
these topics quite seriously. Some links to get you started:

[https://www.geo.admin.ch/en/geo-information-
switzerland/geod...](https://www.geo.admin.ch/en/geo-information-
switzerland/geodata-index-inspire.html)

[https://www.geo.admin.ch/en/geo-information-
switzerland/geod...](https://www.geo.admin.ch/en/geo-information-
switzerland/geodata-index-inspire/infrastructure-and-communication/transport-
networks.html)

You can also visualize a lot of the topographic data on map.geo.admin.ch,
which is surprisingly useful/flexible, if not very user friendly.

~~~
eb0la
Also, your goberment ask people about stuff like if it OK to deploy 5G in the
country ;-)

(I must confess I find that awesome).

------
DominikPeters
Some discussion on this topic on this blog, e.g.,
[https://pedestrianobservations.com/2018/10/30/sometimes-
bus-...](https://pedestrianobservations.com/2018/10/30/sometimes-bus-stop-
consolidation-is-inappropriate/)

~~~
superqwert
thanks for the link - very interesting!

------
nathell
In Warsaw, Poland, the mean distance between bus stops is 1,041 metres. This
may seem a lot, but the distribution is heavily skewed by the fact that Warsaw
has 4 express bus lines: not taking these into account, the mean is 699
metres.

Source (Polish):
[https://warszawa.wikia.org/wiki/Autobusy](https://warszawa.wikia.org/wiki/Autobusy)

------
AndrewDucker
20% of stops in Edinburgh are less than 200m from the previous stop, 40%
between 200m and 300m and 20% between 300m and 400 metres.

From
[http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/58073/item_...](http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/58073/item_72_-_public_transport_priority_action_plan)

------
mxbr
For Berlin, there is an interesting visualization of this question:

[https://verkehrsluecken.tagesspiegel.de/en/](https://verkehrsluecken.tagesspiegel.de/en/)

------
lelima
I live in Dublin and I take the bus everyday, is mad, I'm talking sometimes
less than 50m.

The stop in front of my house and the next one is only three houses away,
Georgian style, so no mansions or huge houses.

The transport in Dublin is horrible and is on top 5 of most expensive public
transport systems. (No subway)

~~~
SOLAR_FIELDS
If you live and work along the Luas it’s not so bad. But otherwise yeah it’s
shite.

------
fasthandle
It depends on the bus!

In my local city in China, for example:

The BRT stops every 2km or so, and runs on dedicated lanes.

The tram stops every 1km or so, no variation downtown or out of town.

The 5 __buses and 6 __* buses tend to be long distance within a metropolitan
area and stop every 2-500m at pickup and destination, but can run 30km only
stopping a couple of times at key pick-up /drop-off locations.

Regularly numbered buses 1 though 70+ will stop every 500 meters or so,
usually at each block.

There's an app, PandaBus, that shows all of the routes and stops for every
stop in most Chinese cities, and has live GPS of buses for several cities. I
don't know where they get the data, I'm sure you can just ask them.

In Hong Kong, numbering is a bit different and related to the city layout -
basically HK is very dense in Central (Island) and Kowloon (peninsula) but due
to coastal and mountainous topography very vast in the New Territories with
'new towns' being small urban pockets in the NT countryside.

Take the, IIRC, 73. The 73 route runs from Tai Po to Kowloon. The 73X does
this with lots of pick-ups in Tai Po, then expressway to Kowloon with a single
stop in Shatin, that's about 80km. The 73K does the same route but doesn't
take the expressway and stops at every conceivable point, expending the
journey time by an hour or two. HK people please correct me as it's a long
time since I was in HK.

And HK also has the Toyota mini buses that have a single pickup point, drive
like maniacs for 30-80km picking up speed downhill and losing momentum uphill,
then drop off where you ask the driver. Good exciting ride, keep your eyes
open!

------
sparrc
In Seattle we have and are currently expanding a system of "RapidRide" buses.
These appear to have an average stop distance of around 0.3 miles (~500
meters)

Wikipedia claims that RapidRide routes have on average 40% fewer stops than
the 'regular' line that they replaced, which would mean the 'regular' buses
have stops about every 300 meters.

Anecdotally, I lived in London for a few years and now live in Seattle, and I
would say these number's all roughly match my experience. Seattle's stops are
spaced quite a bit further apart, but Seattle is also much less dense :)

see [https://www.theurbanist.org/2018/03/26/rainier-rapidride-
met...](https://www.theurbanist.org/2018/03/26/rainier-rapidride-metro-seeks-
streamlined-route-7/) and
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapidRide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapidRide)

------
esotericn
I live in London and I wouldn't say my local bus stops are spaced at 200m
intervals.

In Zone 2, sure. Not in the suburbs.

Definitely density related.

------
euske
Tokyo. The average distance between stops on major streets are about 200 to
400m here, except some busy areas.

[https://busmap.info/map/?q=%E6%9D%B1%E4%BA%AC%E9%83%BD%E6%96...](https://busmap.info/map/?q=%E6%9D%B1%E4%BA%AC%E9%83%BD%E6%96%B0%E5%AE%BF%E5%8C%BA)

As you can imagine, buses are just as amazing as trains in Tokyo. They're
sometimes running late, but only up to a few minutes. And often they come at
the exact time. (There's a time table for every bus stop.) Most buses are
accessible and there are a lot of elderly people using it. (Age 70 or older
can get a free pass.) When there was a once-in-a-decade snowfall last year,
they delayed about 10 minutes, and that was morning rush hours. Again, they do
absolutely fantastic job here.

~~~
rayiner
I’m so jealous. Between your transit and your amazing baked goods.

------
lousken
In Prague the usual distance is between 400 and 600m [0].

[0] [http://standardzastavek.pid.cz/wp-
content/uploads/2017/09/st...](http://standardzastavek.pid.cz/wp-
content/uploads/2017/09/standard_zastavek_pid.pdf)

------
zuron7
200m is incredibly short. I'd say the average in Bangalore is around
700metres. It varies from 500m in dense parts of the city to 1.5km in the not
so dense parts.

------
3JPLW
In US cities, the densest lines will have one stop per "block" — and that's
frequently a regular tenth or eighth of a mile (and more regular as you move
towards the newer cities in the west). So you'll typically find minimum
distances of 160m or 200m and then multiples of those for express lines or
less dense areas.

------
mansoor_
"on average between 100 and 200m" is an imprecise statement. Where does this
metric come from?

~~~
superqwert
I haven't got the precise details yet - I've analysed about 20 bus routes so
far and they have an average distance between stops of 128.4m. But till I
scale up the analysis to all bus routes, I cannot say for certain that it is
the London average.

------
alkonaut
Stockholm: Distances vary between different line types, e.g. the backbones
lines 1..4 are a different type of backbone transit offering shorter travel
times by having longer distances between stops (.5-1km) and shorter invervals
between buses. Regular inner city buses have shorter distances.

The free API is _fantastic_. I'd be willing to bet it's the most comprehensive
public API for city public transport in the world (Happy to be proven wrong
though!).

As an example This API endpoint is for stops and lines.
[https://www.trafiklab.se/api/sl-hallplatser-och-
linjer-2](https://www.trafiklab.se/api/sl-hallplatser-och-linjer-2)

------
gpvos
In Amsterdam, and I guess many Dutch cities, the rule is that there must be a
bus or tram stop within 400m from everywhere within the built-up area, so the
maximum distance between stops is about 800m. The average will be lower of
course.

------
gok
In Chicago, there are 1,536 route miles and 10,768 stops, suggesting average
spacing is about 230 meters. I'm not sure if that double counts stops that
serve multiple routes but it sounds about right.

~~~
3JPLW
Wow, that's almost exactly what I would have guessed. The block distance in
Chicago is 1/8th mile (200m).

------
a-saleh
Depends on the line, heavily.

There are some, especially in the center where distances around 300m are
common, in the outskirt, you could ride for a kilometer or more between stops.

I found a gis data for Prague public transport, so oyu might be able to query
that:
[http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?url=http://mpp...](http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?url=http://mpp.iprpraha.cz/arcgis/rest/services/DOP/Linky_MHD_dnes/MapServer)

------
matt_the_bass
I have no statistics only anedata. In my old neighborhood in Providence RI bus
stops we’re within shouting distance of the next stop. This was infuriating to
me and a 2 mile bus ride to downtown could take 30-40 minutes. That is
literally slower than my normal walking speed (~4 miles per hour). This
duration was generally due to the number of stops not traffic. Maybe I’m a
fast walker, but that still seems ridiculous.

------
jermaustin1
Just measured the bus line I used to take from Edgewater, NJ into Manhattan
(measured first stop in Edgwater to last stop in Weehawken), and it averages a
little over 250m between stops, but they range from around 125m-700m between
stops.

One stop that always angered me was my bus stop to the next was 125m.
Basically across the intersection, and there was almost always a single person
over there, causing us to accelerate then stop.

------
broz
Here is Buenos Aires average is around 200-300m, which I personally find too
short. I remember one time seeing two bus stops literally 20-25 meters away
from each other. The bus needed to take left on a two lane road so it would
circle the block, there was a bus stop just before entering the circle and
just before leaving it. Driving distance was ~400m, but walking was a few
steps.

------
fghtr
I guess one could use openstreetmap data here, since they have pretty
comprehensive coverage of bus stops, at least in Europe.

~~~
ThePadawan
Also, national or regional data might be more complete.

If you can speak enough German to navigate the download, you can e.g. find
geodata of all bus stops in Zurich at
[https://maps.zh.ch/?topic=ZVVZH&amp;showtab=ogddownload](https://maps.zh.ch/?topic=ZVVZH&amp;showtab=ogddownload)
(they will only deliver to email addresses, so I cannot link the actual data
here).

~~~
1wd
Zürich Tram and Bus distance (beeline) between stops of trips:

Mean 199m

Median 172m

Min 14m (Zürich, Central <-> Zürich, Central Polybahn)

Max 678m (Pfäffikon SZ, Bahnhof <-> Pfäffikon SZ, Schiffstation)

According to a dataset of 1744 trips from [https://data.stadt-
zuerich.ch/dataset/vbz_fahrplandaten_gtfs](https://data.stadt-
zuerich.ch/dataset/vbz_fahrplandaten_gtfs)

~~~
ThePadawan
Really cool, and thanks for finding a much more accessible data set than I
managed to!

For people non-familiar with Switzerland, though, it needs pointing out that
Pfäffikon SZ is no longer in Zurich city nor Zurich state, but Schwyz (thus
the SZ). It still comes up in that data set since it is served by ZVV, the
Zurich transport authority. It would also be great to know how you group stops
together as "the same stop, just different parts of it". I.e. Central vs.
Central Polybahn - I would say these are actually colocated, just served by
different lines (tram vs. furnicular).

------
madprgmr
I believe that while there are various guidelines and studies, it is typically
up to the transit agency itself to determine stop density and locations.

There are many companies that provide transit planning solutions which use GIS
(with census data) to aid the process.

------
dawnerd
As others have said varies greatly, but it seems most common around here
(Beaverton / Hillsboro, Oregon) that they like to stop every block, sometimes
on opposite sides on an intersection - which honestly baffles my mind but
whatever.

------
hema64b
In China, big cities will set a distance of 500 meters between two bus stops.
In my hometown which is a quite small city with 500k population, bus stops
doesn't really work and every time you want to get on, just wave your hand.
lol

------
bdcravens
In Houston, the bus and rails lines have stops about every 200m (2 blocks).
Many of the lines have big gaps between stops (in the multiples of KMs),
typically going to a transit center.

------
cafard
In Washington, DC, the distance varies considerably, but 200m sounds about
right for the average. WMATA does have a "next bus" service that I see people
using.

~~~
eli
Notably there are also several "MetroExtra" buses that run similar routes as
popular bus lines but make about 1/3 as many stops and are therefore much
faster.

The NextBus service DC uses is clearly using a very naive algorithm that is
often (consistently) too fast or slow. Some of the better apps modify it or
add their own data.

~~~
cafard
Yes, WMATA has managed to move a lot of S9 buses up and down 16th St. NW at
busy times of day. Judging from what I see, the S9 is efficient at moving such
people as get on, less so in moving numbers of people. It is routine to see
three mostly empty S9s go by a stop before a local bus (S1/S2/S4) arrives.

------
glenneroo
In Vienna, Austria stops are (AFAIK) very rarely less than ~300m away from
each other, granted I'm horrible at guessing distances so perhaps I'm way off.

------
janjim
In Indonesia, the city buses stop wherever it likes. In Jakarta though, the
city managed bus (TransJakarta) have dedicated bus stop at about ~1km.

------
dintech
It's obviously density related, even in London.

~~~
Theodores
It is also obvious that nobody on HN lives in the sticks. Or, if they do, then
they drive and therefore have precisely zero interest in bus stops.

My country dwelling parents have a bus stop outside their door. There is one
bus per day - weekdays only - and that is only in one direction. This I find
mind-boggling. A shopping trip would require an overnight stay in town and for
a full circuit of the route to be completed. Somewhere there is a bus driver
getting paid for that and a local authority that has mandated this service be
put on.

~~~
ghaff
That does seem extreme. That said, a lot of small town and semi-rural public
transit seems to operate at a level where it's marginally better than nothing
but not much better for those who have alternatives.

Around the exurbs/adjacent small city where I live, there is a small bus
service that connects the Walmart, commuter rail, city center, etc. But I'd be
pretty sure it's mostly used by those who can't drive.

------
rajeemcariazo
I feel sad about my country (Philppines) as buses and jeepneys could literally
stop anywhere they like which results into heavy traffic.

------
soneca
In São Paulo It is usually between 200m and 600m, ideally 400m.

But it is very irregular. There are lines with up to 1km between stops

------
dreen
London also has bus route 389 - the entire route is I think 1.5 miles, with
something like a dozen stops

~~~
zimpenfish
My rough calculations give it 15 stops for 2420m in direction 1 (avg 160m),
and 2235m in direction 2 (avg 148m).

Alas, it appears that route 631 has it beat - 1440m in direction 1 (avg 130m),
1751m in direction 2 (avg 134m)

(although, peculiarly, the information in TfL's bus route download doesn't
match what you get from the web site when you look up 631.)

~~~
superqwert
Using TfL open API

\-----------------------------

389 inbound:

min: 24.14811016418819

lq: 63.13737031546762

med: 117.45915732519208

avg: 159.1719773263877

uq: 188.0955557392336

max: 845.60445291754

389 outbound:

min: 27.01945592261999

lq: 41.34298814984834

med: 117.00503319935248

avg: 146.97253048021068

uq: 167.28703169991314

max: 809.8962084249061

631 inbound:

min: 7.0860750640801

lq: 27.685480182275676

med: 104.91095883281287

avg: 128.12981380619047

uq: 218.11267557818746

max: 363.41330216008436

631 outbound:

min: 7.636546343123111

lq: 45.34651661429212

med: 105.97332735159804

avg: 135.50969372368004

uq: 203.01187569586028

max: 363.41330216008436

~~~
zimpenfish
Yeah, I got my numbers from `bus-sequences.csv` downloaded from the API site.

------
drewrv
Here's an interesting write-up about Seattle. The tldr is that it's about 280
meters for the median, 341 for the mean, in the city proper.

[https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-average-distance-
between-s...](https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-average-distance-between-
stops-for-Metro-buses-in-Seattle)

~~~
heleninboodler
Feels roughly right. My only other observation on seattle buses is that some
of the more ridiculous routes have stops every two blocks on an Ave (north-
south), which works out to one every 200m or so, if you use the rule of thumb
that the most uniform parts of the city have 16 blocks per mile.

------
chasd00
in the East Dallas Texas neighborhoods on major roads i would guess a little
under a 1/4 mile. Probably a 5-10 min walk between them.

------
anticensor
İzmir: 300m in city proper, 100m in suburbs.

~~~
hibbelig
Stops in the suburbs are _closer_ than in the city center?

~~~
anticensor
Yes, because smaller buses run in suburbs. This does not include highway
strips, which retain 300m stop spacing in suburbs, too. Example route:
[https://www.eshot.gov.tr/tr/UlasimSaatleri/501/288](https://www.eshot.gov.tr/tr/UlasimSaatleri/501/288)
Disclaimer: I live very close to this bus route

