
Seven-year-olds as hackers, and why we should imitate them - _4bcr
https://herebeseaswines.net/essays/2020-05-29-seven-year-olds-as-hackers-and-why-we-should-imitate-them
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bryanrasmussen
Following this article I would have to say my 2-year-old is obviously also a
hacker and we should not imitate him because we have to spend all our time
standing next to him ready to save his life when he does something really
stupid to get the result he wants, but not well.

~~~
toss1
One of my favorite sayings, first seen tacked on the door of a rock climbing
school, explains it better: \--- Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgement. \---

Of course, the trick is to ensure that the bad judgement is not bad enough to
take you out of the game.

Seems that's what the parent is around for - let the kid explore while acting
as the safety net.

~~~
gjkood
Yes, this is a favorite of mine. I had an old wooden plaque with this saying
on my wall. Got lost when I moved homes.

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jacobolus
> _As adults, we can 't progress at the same speed as kids,_

This is definitely not true. Adults have more trouble learning some kinds of
new motor skills up to expert level, and if the physical skill requires e.g.
extreme flexibility kids sometimes have a less fixed bone structure, but
adults are a lot faster at getting to basic competence in new physical tasks
by building from past experience, and for any other kind of skill adults can
learn much faster than kids.

The real problem adults have vs. kids is available time to spend thinking
about things (because they have other responsibilities), not raw learning
speed.

~~~
SparkyMcUnicorn
But this is also true in the brain. A child's brain isn't limited by what it
already knows.

Their brains are more flexible and don't have a "fixed [mental] structure",
and this is why I think it's very important to promote and encourage
creativity and passions from a young age.

There's a lot we can learn from kids, even if we need to filter some things
through the wisdom that comes with age. Sometimes they have a tendency to have
a machine-learning-esque approach to trying new things, which is fascinating
to watch, and then how they take instructional guidance to alter their
approach.

This might be an easy article to critique, but there's some good points to be
gleamed.

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cmehdy
The author might like an illustrated summary of a talk given by Sir Ken
Robinson about "Changing education paradigms"[0], which includes some of the
essence of this article (particularly referring to studies about how many uses
one person can think of for a paperclip)

[0] RSA Animate:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U)

[1] Full talk (55 mins):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCbdS4hSa0s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCbdS4hSa0s)

~~~
claes-magnus
I actually link to [0] in my text in the end when I say we should 'rethink
education'. :) I did not know of the full talk, and I am very grateful for
your link [1]!

~~~
cmehdy
I'm sorry I missed that! I did read the rest but must have been so eager to
share that fascinating talk that I overlooked this mistake. Thanks for the
article!

~~~
claes-magnus
No worries. Also, I don't count on people clicking on all links. Further also,
I totally understand what you mean: you want everyone to see it!

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cosmojg
> My general point is that sometimes we're so focused on producing (2) 'an
> incredibly good, and perhaps very time-consuming, piece of work that
> produces exactly what is needed' that we fail in (1) '[producing] what is
> needed, but not well' (and thus end up failing in general). In this respect,
> we should take inspiration from our seven-year-olds. In the best of worlds,
> we could take inspiration from them with regard to point 1, mentor them to
> respecting point 2 while making sure not to smother the essence of point 1 -
> not in them, nor in ourselves.

> Adults fail, seven-year-olds are just sad (in the moment) because they were
> not able to materialize some grande vision. This is two separate
> experiences; and perhaps this is precisely why seven-year-olds are better
> hackers than adults? …because they don't really fail?

Woah boy, this hit home. I really ought to get back in touch with my inner
seven-year-old self.

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drummer
Unfortunately the current 'education' system beats most creativity out of
children. Just ask Michio Kaku and de Grasse Tyson.

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sergeykish
Thank you, I've never thought about it but it takes great courage to show
skill that may be judged as inferior. And most of the children skills are not
of levels of adult. Adult skills are not as good as industry standards either.
My position was "with experience grows skill" now I see it contains judgement.
Which may be discouraging. Both to other and to myself.

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tgv
Taking some arbitrary definition of the word "hacker" and interpreting that
rather freely makes the title look like click-bait.

~~~
claes-magnus
Aren't all definitions arbitrary? If we would only go by how words are used
'in general', who would want to be a 'hacker'? ;) And I don't think the
definition of 'hacker' in The Jargon File is just... arbitrary in the context
of Hacker News? However, I am guilty as charged of making a very free, playful
interpretation. Also, I am guilty as charged for trying to have a title that
makes some people curious. I am sorry you did not like the post, but that's
life! Cheers and thank you very much for reading!

~~~
cl0rkster
First off, having a seven year old, I thank you for your words. They resonate
with me.

I think perhaps arguing about the arbitrary nature of definitions will devolve
into pedantry. While you are completely correct (e.g. the meaning of "toilet"
over time). There is perhaps a better current arbitrary word (mouth hole
sound) that implies something deeper. There are immutable essences (or
platonic forms) that cannot change that we have been describing with different
language since the very beginning. It kind of reminds me of that scene in the
matrix where Neo meets the machine father with his daughter who tells him how
"love" is just a word. What it implies is what matters. It doesn't matter how
you describe it visually or audibly, if you are communicating with someone
else, and they are trying to understand you, the reason they ever can is
because something exists independent of either communicator, and both have
recognized that thing and are willing to acknowledge that.

~~~
claes-magnus
Glad to hear so!

About the later part: yes, I actually agree!

~~~
cl0rkster
If you missed it, that was my best 7-year old hack at Greek philosophy :)

------
reedwolf
Be like the boy.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3jfDT5Rx30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3jfDT5Rx30)

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gabordemooij
Your typical 'we should all follow the children' kind of article. Dumbest kind
of reasoning I have ever heard in my life.

~~~
claes-magnus
Hmm. I liked your other reply. I don't agree with you upon this one. I write:

> It's sound that our children have us, adults, as role models, that they are
> inspired by us, by what we do, what we say, and by how we act. However,
> wiIt's sound that our children have us, adults, as role models, that they
> are inspired by us, by what we do, what we say, and by how we act. However,
> with regard to creativity and hacking, you don't have to spend much time
> building with lego, drawing, playing and discussing to realize that you
> won't match your seven-year-old in terms of getting things done, solving
> problems related to creative tasks.th regard to creativity and hacking, you
> don't have to spend much time building with lego, drawing, playing and
> discussing to realize that you won't match your seven-year-old in terms of
> getting things done, solving problems related to creative tasks. [...]

> My general point is that sometimes we're so focused on producing (2) 'an
> incredibly good, and perhaps very time-consuming, piece of work that
> produces exactly what is needed' that we fail in (1) '[producing] what is
> needed, but not well' (and thus end up failing in general). In this respect,
> we should take inspiration from our seven-year-olds.

But what you insinuate in your other reply may still be correct! Perhaps this
usage makes the notion of a hack, hacker, hacking empty? I believe it's
important to be able to say 'I am wrong'. And perhaps I am here. I have not
decided what I think yet.

~~~
bobmaxup
You don't need to defend yourself against every critique, including this one.

------
kiawe_fire
I agree with this, and it's something that's been on my mind recently.

I've dabbled with trying to make a game over the last 5 years or so, and run
into this problem every time. As a kid, I learned computer programming
partially by making little Visual Basic programs and partially by making a
couple dorky little 2D games.

At no point do I ever remember stepping back at my "work" and being frustrated
to the point of giving up that whatever I was building didn't look like some
professional thing I was trying to emulate.

I was mostly just happy that I could put something together, understand it and
learn from it, and then see all the possibilities I could add to it and
refine.

That feedback loop of "learn something new", "mess around with it", and then
sort of spontaneously refine it and add new features, was super fun, and is
what drove me to software engineering as a career.

For example, if I wanted to make a game, I would learn how to import a
"sprite". I'd spend a little time drawing a crappy spaceship, and then be
thrilled to see it on the screen, responding to key presses. Then, excitedly,
I'd add an enemy. Then, "cool, I can have him shoot bullets and add to a
counter every time I dodge one".

At no point did I say "my spaceship sucks, and I have no idea if I'm doing
this scoring code right... I'm a loser and I'm done". I was having too much
fun in the process for that.

But now? My attempts at making a game all start and stop with "I want to make
an overhead shooter" and then I try to draw a pixel art spaceship and after a
few hours of comparing what I do with the art in "real" games, get frustrated
and give up. I want it to look and feel a certain way, and when I don't get
that, I feel like the whole project is doomed to failure.

I don't feel this way with what I do professionally, which is primarily front
and back end web and mobile app development. When I have to learn something
new, I'm confident enough in my ability to learn and improve.

But my hobby stuff, and particularly artwork? Not happening, and I'm not sure
how to get past this.

Some of this, I wonder, comes down to expectations of adults vs kids. As a
kid, I never expected my stuff to be perfect or professional, and neither did
anyone else.

Your picture of your kid's wall hit me. As a kid, I would proudly display my
creations, and not care if someone nitpicked it. And of course, nobody did,
because I was "just a kid".

But, honestly, if an adult proudly displayed a bunch of amateur artwork he/she
drew, that would be really weird, right?

I'm capable of professional quality web development work, because it's what
I've focused on for the last 6-8 years, but if someone were to see my amateur
"pew pew" spaceship game, it would just be sad... if I haven't magically
developed good skills here at this point of my life ("this point" being any
point at which you are considered an adult), then I must just be bad at it,
right?

I'm sure I can improve, but the combination of being embarrassed by everything
I produce, along with a preoccupation with what everyone would think of it,
and an impatience for being able to produce something good... it feels like a
lot of barriers to get through.

And as a kid, I don't know what the "end goal" was, other than it was just fun
to mess around. When I did release something online, I wasn't bothered by
criticism and was happy at the praise, but mostly I just liked making the
actual thing.

As an adult? Somehow the end goal feels like it's about the end result of
releasing the thing, more so than the actual process of making it.

There's something about the lower expectations placed on a kid, and a lack of
comparing everything I make to the gobs of talented people on Twitter or
Pinterest, combined with a focus on the fun of just "messing around", that
makes the whole process of getting better at something (and discovering new
things along the way) much less frustrating.

~~~
claes-magnus
Thank you for reading and sharing your interesting story and your experiences!
I am also struggling with what you describe, and this is why I wanted to play
around with the notion of hack and hacker. The word in itself is no holy cow
to me. I want to get better at just 'messing around'. And in this very limited
sense, I do think kids should inspire us, and that a connection to hack-ish
things exists. It's about a mentality, not only skills and knowledge. I lack
your vast experience (I am a quite old junior front-end developer), so you can
imagine what I feel when showing what I've done. Why should one be
embarrassed? If you worked professionally for years on some application and
had lots of experience and the app sucked, perhaps it would be motivated (or
more reasonable to think, the team or management had issues) - but otherwise?
I love this sentence: 'a quick job that produces what is needed, but not
well.' I read it is a description of a mentality, a quite amateur-sh DIY
spirit. Or at least it was fun to play around with the meaning in that way.

------
kungato
I thought we called this Front-end Development

