

The shit finally hits the fan....(James Gosling on Oracle vs Google) - bitboxer
http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/the_shit_finally_hits_the

======
noonespecial
I... I only carried it for protection! To scare off the bad guys. I never
meant for anyone to get _shot_!

~~~
patentavoidance
At my previous company, we had a patent lawyer who would always ask around if
anything we developers did were patentable. I would always downplay what I was
doing and come up with things that might be prior-art.

My thinking is this: Even though the company would only use it for "defensive
purposes" (which I believe), you never know who owns the company tomorrow. And
you are not going to work there tomorrow either, so you might be the one being
sued.

Instead, I would try to get permission to blog about it, so it is available
for everyone -- including my future self.

I recommend everyone else do the same!

(Throw-away account - I'm not sure future employers want this)

~~~
adnam
It's amazing that for fear of future repercussions, someone would create a
throw-away account to express a sentiment such as this.

~~~
adamc
It's an excellent justification for allowing throw-away accounts.

~~~
helveticaman
Although one could have a "make throwaway account" link from the account page.

~~~
DougBTX
Or like Slashdot, and have a "post this anonymously" checkbox.

------
jcromartie
That's what happens when you sell your hacker company to a bunch of
douchebags.

~~~
bonzoesc
That's what happens when your hacker company runs out of money and sells to a
business with money and customers.

~~~
jcromartie
Sorry your dose of reality got fewer upvotes than my hyperbole. Here, have
some karma!

------
ericd
Not that it needed the help, but Oracle just became an even less attractive
place to work, as a programmer.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
Saying Oracle could be less attractive for developers is like saying there's a
-1 Kelvin ;-)

~~~
eru
Just for nit-picking: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature>

------
alanh
_“With Oracle, everything is always about money. It is the only metric they
know.”_

— Gosling, comment on linked article.

~~~
bonzoesc
Oracle (NASDAQ: ORCL) is a public company, so… duh?

"So say goodbye to the NAACP award […] But I'll just take the "I Got A Lot Of
Cheese" award"

— Kanye West, "Everything I Am"

------
fno
Could someone be so kind to explain why this is bad for Java instead being bad
for patents? I guess we all agree that software patents are bad. This issue
seems to be just about them. Why is Java dragged into this? (Genuine
curiosity.)

~~~
wazoox
Because people will use something else instead of Java to avoid being sued by
Oracle. Just like they stopped using OpenSolaris to avoid being sued by NetApp
(like CoRaid). One by one, the open Sun technologies will fall into
irrelevance.

~~~
gaius
But... Isn't it baked into the HN DNA that you _should_ be using something
other than Java? <http://www.paulgraham.com/javacover.html> ;-)

~~~
pavelludiq
Java is much more than just the language, its the platform, the libraries and
countless other JVM languages.

~~~
gaius
I'm aware of that; I was getting paid for Java work in 1995.

------
mhd
I guess somewhere RMS is grinning from ear to ear.

~~~
bigmac
I wonder if you're right... To the casual observer this seems to undermine the
GPL.

~~~
hasenj
I think he's referring to how he can use this incident to brag about how he's
right with his views on open-source-but-not-really-free stuff.

~~~
code_duck
Or, he could use this incident to demonstrate how he's right with his views on
open-source-but-not-really-free stuff.

------
JoachimSchipper
This sort of things makes me think that <http://www.illumos.org/> (formerly
OpenSolaris) could run into trouble sooner rather than later...

~~~
wazoox
They don't even need Oracle for that. NetApp already flexed muscles and made
clear they'll go after anyone daring using OpenSolaris and most probably
anything sporting ZFS (including *BSD), in a storage oriented product.
Frankly, I don't see any reason to use OpenSolaris if not for ZFS.

IMHO OpenSolaris won't represent much more than NetBSD pretty soon.

~~~
JoachimSchipper
(Open)Solaris has other nice stuff, including dtrace, zones, and some big iron
features (hotswapping CPUs and memory, for instance, and apparently an
advanced hardware error detection system).

I don't use it, but it does have some things to offer.

~~~
wazoox
I know that, however the one and only feature that makes everyone drool is
ZFS. We do live without all the other nifty features.

------
jacquesm
This week seems to be particularly bad for Big Names and their stance on such
things as Net Neutrality and Software Patents, first Vint Cerf (who after Jon
Postel was my internet hero #2) and now James Gosling, who seems to imply
prior knowledge that this one was in the cards.

So, if he saw their eyes sparkle that means that he is saying that he had an
inkling that they were going to use that patent, and then he says "I hope to
avoid getting dragged into the fray".

Great guy, not only does he sell a cocked gun to a company that is well known
for using guns, on top of that he hopes that he's not even going to have to
testify.

~~~
davidw
I don't think it was his decision to sell. He was forced out/quit/whatever
soon after the acquisition anyway.

~~~
jacquesm
Ok, that is probably true.

So he must have been in on the negotiations only because of his name being on
those patents, or his unique understanding of those patents or something to
that effect.

I find it strange to see him talking to the Oracle lawyers explaining the
patent situations in a 'we're selling you this asset with which you can attack
google' mode, and to come out now and act all surprised and 'I hope I don't
get dragged in to it' mode.

He should probably expect to get dragged in to it, most likely by Googles
council as a witness for the defense.

If he presented it to Oracle in a way that 'made their lawyers eyes sparkle'
that sounds like he presented it in a very favorable light (for Oracle and
Sun) during those meetings, if he's going to be dragged in to it he will have
to repeat his stance on why this is something that Oracle can do in court or
he'll risk being sued by Oracle for misrepresentation during the meetings with
Oracle if he comes down on the defense side with his point of view.

I really wouldn't want to be in his shoes, this could get very nasty. And it
could damage the Java brand considerably.

~~~
jballanc
I just felt it cogent to point out that the article linked is a mere 71 words,
while your above analysis of the situation is 215. I think you may be reading
too much into this...

~~~
jacquesm
It's speculative.

------
carterschonwald
for those who can't see the page, heres the coral cache link
[http://nighthacks.com.nyud.net/roller/jag/entry/the_shit_fin...](http://nighthacks.com.nyud.net/roller/jag/entry/the_shit_finally_hits_the)

------
Aegean
OK but, did google not really think about this possibility? I think it was a
very obvious risk and I would think they probably had a plan for this.

~~~
cookiecaper
It probably seemed relatively remote when Sun was still around, as Schwartz
and Sun had a history of being very friendly to open-source philosophies. Most
viewed Sun's patents as defensive. Schwartz has written about how the patents
kept Sun out of this mess before -- Microsoft came and said "Cough up because
OpenOffice violates our patents" and Schwartz countered with "O RLY, well,
while we're at it, why don't we discuss licensing for our Java-related patents
re: .NET", etc. But now what used to be Sun is the aggressor.

Oracle bought Sun and everyone was concerned because Oracle is very evil.

~~~
Aegean
OK but it's not convincing to think Google would have thought, oh Sun is a
company that is nice to open source, so lets base our whole Android operating
environment on this open source friendly Java language and JVM and disregard
any possibility of being sued. I would think such companies would think about
the possibility of someone else taking over or generally anything else
happening. Its unprofessional to base your business decision on something as
vague as _attitude_. You need something more solid like an agreement -
especially for something as big as Android.

So anyway my understanding is probably Google has some agreement or plan at
hand for this situation. Ideas welcome.

------
tocomment
Dumb question, isn't Java free and open source now? What are they suing about?

~~~
dagw
Google didn't use Sun's open sourced version of Java as the base for their VM.
They implemented their own VM from scratch and are thus not covered by the
patent protection offered by the open source license.

~~~
tocomment
So why didn't they just use the open source version?

~~~
RodgerTheGreat
Not-invented-here syndrome, probably. Dalvik seemed intentionally as different
from a conventional JVM as possible (different instruction set, register-based
rather than stack-based, different executable format, etc), and given the
maturity of the JVM architecture it's hard to believe those decisions were
entirely for engineering reasons.

~~~
technomancy
> given the maturity of the JVM architecture

The server JVM is very mature; millions of dollars have been poured into
making it work great in long-running, high-memory conditions where it has a
lot of time to optimize its JIT. The client JVM (focusing on quick startup and
low resource usage) has been pretty much neglected ever since people realized
"Java applets on the web" wasn't going to happen.

------
smokinn
There has to be more behind this. They can't be suing Google just because they
wrote their own embedded Java VM because if they were they'd be suing RIM too.

And they certainly know RIM develops its own since they say so right on their
own site: <http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/systems/index-139239.html>

_RIM's support for J2ME includes development of its own Java virtual machine
(JVM) 1, which supports the Connected Limited Device Configuration (CLDC) and
the Mobile Information Device Profile (MIDP)._

~~~
X-Istence
"RIM's support for J2ME [...]"

The gist of the matter is right there. Since RIM supports J2ME, it means they
have paid Sun, now Oracle for a J2ME license. That was one of the things that
Google bypassed by writing their own implementation.

See this comment on the other discussion:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1599834>

------
bmm6o
It seems like there's something missing from the story. I don't see how Google
wouldn't have known they were infringing on Sun's patents. How could they
release Android without a licensing agreement? It would be insane.

~~~
alanh
In the filing Oracle claims Google knows this because it hired Java
programmers away from Sun years ago.

~~~
bmm6o
Right, my question is why didn't Google know they were opening themselves up
to this kind of suit? Could they possibly have known but gone ahead anyway?
That would be crazy.

~~~
WildUtah
As far as Google, they deliberately wrote a new virtual machine to be certain
they were not infringing. With the patent system we have today, the only way
to avoid opening themselves up to this kind of suit is to stop writing
software entirely.

Google isn't infringing on the patents and sure isn't violating the copyright.
Oracle knows that a Texas jury won't understand the technical issues and hopes
Google will settle to avoid the chance of losing billions over a bogus and
ignorant verdict.

The outcome of a jury trial in a case like this is like flipping a coin. There
won't be any hackers on the jury or else it'd be a five minute decision out of
the jury room for Google.

~~~
hughw
I always assumed Google had done their legal homework before building Dalvik.
If they truly did a thoroughly clean implementation and if they truly examined
all the patent issues they could foresee, then this case would prove that
nobody, no company at all, no matter how diligent, can safely write software
without fear of infringing patents. That won't help Google in court, but they
could help make the case against software patents in the U.S. Congress. My
dearest hope.

------
OoTheNigerian
I am not a programmer so permit my probably naive questions.

1\. How difficult will it be for Google to 're do" Android and base it on
another language say Objective C/UNIX like iOS? 2\. Do you guys think this
will affect Symbian? 3\. What other OS's will this affect? 4\. Is MYSQL next?

~~~
dagw
The answer to 1 is probably "very, but not impossible". They'd basically have
to rewrite everything above kernel (which is Linux) from scratch. More
importantly it would be a PR nightmare. Who wants to base their product on a
platform where the platform owners are happy to throw away all your hard work
and make you start from scratch every once in a while.

As to 2 and 3, this probably won't affect anybody else. Symbian (and everybody
else) use an officially licensed JVM from Sun(now Oracle) and as such should
be safe. The reason Google is in trouble is that the wrote their own VM rather
than licensing the VM from Oracle.

As to 4. Well that's anyone's guess.

~~~
telemachos
Re 4, I would add that if you have already started to think hard about moving
away from MySQL, you _really_ should now.

~~~
axod
That's pretty odd thinking.

If I'm running MySQL on some servers, and it works great, it's not going to
suddenly explode, or stop working.

~~~
SkyMarshal
But Oracle may suddenly change the licensing at some point in the future to
something more onerous, so it would behoove you to consider not getting locked
into MySQL now.

~~~
houseabsolute
They can't change the license they already granted you. And moving now should
not be any easier than moving in the event they do change the license in the
future, with the added cost that moving may never become necessary. So, IMO,
your comment on this issue is baseless fud. Developing a competing platform on
tech you know to be patented is totally different than using validly licensed
software.

------
peripitea
Text for anyone who can't see it due to site being down:

Oracle finally filed a patent lawsuit against Google. Not a big surprise.
During the integration meetings between Sun and Oracle where we were being
grilled about the patent situation between Sun and Google, we could see the
Oracle lawyer's eyes sparkle. Filing patent suits was never in Sun's genetic
code. Alas....

I hope to avoid getting dragged into the fray: they only picked one of my
patents (RE38,104) to sue over.

------
mhd
Okay, at least now I don't have to think about what language to learn next,
Clojure or Erlang…

~~~
jimm
I'd say Clojure, but it runs on the JVM.

------
reneky
Sun poured billions into Java; is it so bad to ask for one of the biggest
benefitors to share the profits?

~~~
zyb09
Well they could have just gone with python if they had known this was coming.
They probably picked Java on the basis that it is free to use and fits into
the open-source community.

~~~
gvb
Android, Inc. (the original company) chose Java because their target market
(smartphones) nearly universally supported Java (JVM) at the time of the
inception of Android, so the phones ran Java and phone developers knew and
were comfortable with Java.

Ref:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_%28operating_system%29#...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_%28operating_system%29#Acquisition_by_Google)

I was unable to ascertain whether Dalvik came from Android, Inc. or was
created by Google after acquiring Android. My memory says the later.

The Dalvik VM is an end-run around the Sun JVM licensing issue:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalvik_virtual_machine>

See especially the reference
<http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/news/110/>

_This raised more than one eyebrowse, and sure did make me raise mine: how did
Google manage to get Sun to license off a platform that could very well kill
their own?

Turns out, they didn’t: their move was even smarter than Sun’s.

Today Google released the Android code and I took a serious look at its
internals... and found the solution for the licensing problem. It’s called
Dalvik and it’s the new name of Sun’s worst nightmares._

~~~
mbreese
My recollection is that Dalvik was always a key part of Android and it came
along to Google when they bought it.

------
jc-denton
They start arguing about it instead of improving it :(

