
Inmates at California’s San Quentin prison learn to code - correctifier
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/11/how-18-inmates-at-californias-notorious-san-quentin-prison-learn-to-code/
======
GuiA
_> While the goal of Code 7370 is laudable, faced with competition from
younger programmers, many of whom have handled computers since they were
toddlers, will it make any meaningful difference for inmates? For now, it's
too soon to tell._

Of course it will make a meaningful difference for inmates (if only because in
terms of all things one could do in jail, this is probably in the top 1% in
terms of intellectual stimulation), and of course they could become high
quality professionals after this. Especially given the fact that the training
seems more intense to me than any of the bootcamps from which a lot of today's
web devs come from ("four-day-per-week, eight-hour-per-day, six-month course"
\- most bootcamps are a few weeks, or a few months at the maximum).

This sort of line of thought is so harmful. There's nothing magical about
programming that makes it different from any other industry. You don't need to
have been immersed in it your whole life to be an outstanding professional.
It's not the case for chemical engineering, it's not the case for mechanical
engineering, it's not the case for electrical engineering, why would it be
true for computer engineering?

Especially given the fact that of all the subfields in computer engineering,
there's nothing deeply complex about HTML/CSS/JS because it relies on so few
prerequisites (if you're writing low level assembly, it requires a deep
understanding of the machine's architecture; if you're writing graphics code,
it requires a solid knowledge of linear algebra. But there are no such
foundations for web development).

~~~
hardwaresofton
There are tons of college grads that either didn't study computer science at
all, or studied computer science and didn't do very well (and don't like it
enough to do it outside of school) that are getting high-paying jobs (relative
to general populace) at lots of big tech companies.

The tech industry fancies itself a meritocracy/progressive -- programs like
this will show just how much of that perception is real.

~~~
duaneb
> There are tons of college grads that either didn't study computer science at
> all, or studied computer science and didn't do very well (and don't like it
> enough to do it outside of school) that are getting high-paying jobs
> (relative to general populace) at lots of big tech companies.

This also flips the other way: I've interviewed PhDs with little ability to
operate in an engineering environment. The industry is definitely more
meritocratic than, say, the banking, consulting, and business world.

~~~
Iftheshoefits
I've not seen any evidence that this industry is more or less meritocratic (in
the positive sense meant here, that is, based on ability to perform
programming tasks) than any other--including academia (whence I come, but from
a science background, not CS/math).

On the other hand I've seen plenty of evidence that in certain geographic
regions there is a particularly heavy (and, in my opinion, amusingly
misplaced) emphasis on categorical errors, equivocation, and conflation of
purely academic CS knowledge with practical ability (as you yourself allude
to). These are all the CS-world equivalent of the supposedly very un-
meritocratic things many who've never been outside of CS (professionally)
assume occur in, oh, "banking, consulting, and [the] business world" as a
matter of daily routine.

~~~
duaneb
The difference with academia is that what qualifies as 'meritorious' is far
less pragmatic. Many people get PhDs based on work that will never see
engineering use. In this sense, they're very qualified at producing
interesting, useless observations. The tech industry is less inclined towards
this.

However, we are more inclined towards hype investing, leading to useless
companies (snapchat) getting insane valuations, and people utterly without
merit becoming rich overnight.

------
numlocked
This is offered through a great program at San Quentin called The Last Mile. I
got to know one Chrisfino Kenyatta a bit (a founding member of the program
while he was an inmate) when our company was at RocketSpace, where he works.

One day shortly after he started at RocketSpace, he asked how I was doing and
I said "eh, surviving". Not knowing his background, I was caught a bit off-
guard when he told me he had recently got out of San Quentin after 19 years,
and gently reminded me that I was doing a bit better than just surviving. He's
a great, great guy.

He did a Tedx talk about his experience that is well worth watching.
[http://www.tedxmarin.org/2014-speakers/chrisfino-kenyatta-
le...](http://www.tedxmarin.org/2014-speakers/chrisfino-kenyatta-leal/)

Totally coincidentally (though thanks to Kenyatta for being such a great
ambassador for the program) we are interviewing a Last Mile member for an
operations position at our company, ePantry, later today.

~~~
stickperson
I came here to talk about Kenyatta, too. For sure thought I'd see his name in
the article.

------
Zelphyr
I have an uncle that spent the better part of a decade in prison because of
our idiotic drug laws. While he was in he learned coding (DBase if I recall--
it was still popular at the time). He never used it after he got out. Why not?
He has a marketable skill now, right? Sure. But nobody wants to hire an ex-con
regardless of their skill.

I think projects like this are great but we also need to address the problem
of being able to find a job for these guys after they get out.

Or, you know; get rid of the drug laws that put him there in the first place.

~~~
Nicholas_C
>I think projects like this are great but we also need to address the problem
of being able to find a job for these guys after they get out.

Amen. This is a huge problem and probably a huge part of why recidivism rates
are so high. If you can't get a job out of prison and you're low on money it's
really easy to get your old drug/weed guy to front goods for you to sell.
Instant cash, work on your own time, no background checks, work that is
probably more exciting and interesting.

Huge sentencing reform is needed and I encourage everyone to get active or at
least put your ear to the ground about it. A great source of info is the
Sentencing Project[0]. They send out e-mails regarding the status of reform in
different states and other general current events and information.

[0]
[http://www.sentencingproject.org/template/index.cfm](http://www.sentencingproject.org/template/index.cfm)

~~~
mschuster91
You'd not even need a sentencing reform to improve the chances of getting a
job.

Cash incentives (e.g. state pays 50% of the income of the employee for a year
or two) for employers can be a much better starting point. Or educating
prisoners e.g. to become licensed electricians, plumbers, ... like in Germany
and then helping them to start their own business when out of jail.

But the US system seems like focused 100% on punishment and generating revenue
for private prisons, so I highly doubt this will ever be introduced - there's
simply too much money at stake when former inmates actually rehabilitate.

~~~
atmosx
Private prisons? That's a nice touch! Out of curiosity, how does a private
prison work? I mean the _client_ is the state or say (if a con has money) I
can do his time in private prison with a PS-4, regular medical examinations,
internet access (probably monitored), etc.?

Not that it's bad to have _civilized_ prisons, but I'm curious how a private
prison operates.

~~~
maxerickson
Yes, the client would be the US government or state. Private prisons hold
about 8% of prisoners in the US, during 2013 the number of prisoners in
private facilities declined by 3%.

Numbers from here:

[http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/p13.txt](http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/p13.txt)

There are some other problems with perverse incentives in the US incarceration
system (businesses are allowed to employ prisoners at low wages), but the
"it's all about private prisons" narrative isn't really backed up by the
numbers.

If you look at the sort of crimes that people end up getting put into prison
for, at least statistically, they aren't Myspace comments.

~~~
mschuster91
> If you look at the sort of crimes that people end up getting put into prison
> for, at least statistically, they aren't Myspace comments.

Mostly drug-related stuff, especially victimless crimes such as pure
possession without intent to distribute... while Myspace or other
cyberbullying can certainly be jail-worthy, a shitload of US prisoners are in
for drugs.

imho, the US and every other country in this world should end the "War on
Drugs". It has undeniably failed, and costs taxpayers everywhere billions of
dollars, in addition to the hundreds of thousands of lives lost alone in
Mexico...

~~~
maxerickson
I don't see a handy possession vs distribution summary, but look here for the
types of cases that get prosecuted for trafficking:

[http://isb.ussc.gov/content/pentaho-
cdf/RenderXCDF?solution=...](http://isb.ussc.gov/content/pentaho-
cdf/RenderXCDF?solution=Sourcebook&path=&action=table_xx.xcdf&template=mantle&table_num=Table42)

The typical federal marijuana trafficking prosecution involves possession of
10 kilos (the small number of cases involving less than that averaged 4
kilos). The numbers for crack and meth are smaller, but there is still a
pretty clear line at 'dozens of doses'.

I'm not sure I understand it correctly, but this graph seems to say that the
majority of people sentenced under drug guidelines are convicted of some other
crime. So apparently they are committing other crimes while in possession of
drugs:

[http://isb.ussc.gov/content/pentaho-
cdf/RenderXCDF?solution=...](http://isb.ussc.gov/content/pentaho-
cdf/RenderXCDF?solution=Sourcebook&path=&template=mantle&action=figure_xx.xcdf&table_num=Figure_I)

And then the majority of "pure drug cases" actually do involve trafficking,
which the data above indicates usually involves substantial quantities.

Nothing I've said is an argument in favor of the war on drugs.

------
shawndrost
Hey yall -- I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor, which wrote the curriculum and is
running the program from an instruction and student success standpoint. This
is my baby and it's exciting to see it getting some attention this week -- I
think that prisons should be schools by default and I hope that public
perception changes. AMA if you're curious.

~~~
unclebucknasty
> _I think that prisons should be schools by default_

Indeed. Good work you're doing there.

Now, if we can make schools schools by default, then maybe we can skip the
prison step altogether.

~~~
cognivore
"Now, if we can make schools schools by default, then maybe we can skip the
prison step altogether."

That's the best quote on HN I've read in a year.

------
estsauver
Does anyone here know the people who are working with code 7370? I'd love to
help in some way. I don't know if they're looking for code reviews or
tutoring, or what I could provide, but I'd love to be of help.

It seems like providing the inmates access to something like
[http://kapeli.com/dash](http://kapeli.com/dash) or mdn locally would be a
godsend.

~~~
shawndrost
I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor -- we build the cirriculum and are running the
daily events. Please contact me (shawn@hackreactor.com) with your interest.

We have local copies of MDN installed and are adding a dash equivalent over
xmas. (Dash is osx only -- I forget the equivalent for linux, which is all the
institution could afford.)

~~~
cgag
The free software version is Zeal
([http://zealdocs.org/](http://zealdocs.org/)).

~~~
allannienhuis
Another alternative:
[https://github.com/rgarcia/dochub](https://github.com/rgarcia/dochub) is a
node application that can be installed locally which serves up a pile of
relevant web development documentation.

Online/demo version of the app here: [http://dochub.io/](http://dochub.io/)
but that's not loading for me at the moment.

------
krishna_sh
San Quentin prison seems to be doing a great job at engaging prisoners. The
inmates write beautiful answers on Quora too.

~~~
slayed0
I thought they weren't allowed internet access?

> _Of course, as the class is taught inside a prison, it has an extra
> obstacle—inmates don 't have access to the Internet at all, and their only
> time spent with a computer is inside the classroom._

~~~
shawndrost
They are given printed quora questions by Last Mile staff, then they write the
answers longhand. It's old school.

~~~
krishna_sh
Thats right. The answers come with a standard footer as well saying that they
do not have internet access and that the prison staff was proofread the answer
before posting.

------
300bps
So now when I tell friends and relatives who can't get a job that pays more
than $12 per hour that they should learn how to code in their spare time, I
have more ammunition.

My favorite story to relay is an Indian woman whose husband came to the U.S.
on an H1B visa. She came here on an unskilled visa. In her spare time at home
while she was working as a maid, she taught herself programming. A year later
she was making $60,000 per year. A few years later, making $80,000 per year.

Every time I relay a story like this - the person I'm trying to convince has
an excuse as to why it won't work for them. "Oh, but that was a different
time! There are no jobs today!"

I can't wait to hear the excuse as to why they can't learn to code even though
prison inmates are now doing it.

~~~
sdrothrock
> My favorite story to relay is an Indian woman whose husband came to the U.S.
> on an H1B visa. She came here on an unskilled visa. In her spare time at
> home while she was working as a maid, she taught herself programming. A year
> later she was making $60,000 per year. A few years later, making $80,000 per
> year.

As a counterpoint, have you thought that it might not be the "ability to
code," but rather the "drive to learn" that causes these people to be
successful? I think that even if everyone could code, they wouldn't
necessarily be successful, whereas someone who had that drive to go out,
learn, expose themselves to new ideas, etc. presumably also has the drive to
sell themselves and keep pushing.

------
nowarninglabel
We were fortunate enough to get to partner with Last Mile
[https://zip.kiva.org/trustees/186](https://zip.kiva.org/trustees/186) to fund
Tulio: [https://thelastmile.org/meet-the-people/alumni/tulio-k-
cardo...](https://thelastmile.org/meet-the-people/alumni/tulio-k-cardozo/)

He's now Lead Developer at Launch Podium:
[https://launchpodium.com/company/](https://launchpodium.com/company/)

And his side project is looking pretty good now compared to the last time I
looked at it: [http://collaborativebenefit.org/about-us/from-our-
founder/](http://collaborativebenefit.org/about-us/from-our-founder/)

------
lordnacho
Perhaps they should be allowed to work remotely after graduating? You would
think having a 60-100k job in sight would reduce recidivism. No idea what the
stats are though.

Society gets to continue punishing them for whatever they did, and the inmates
gets something meaningful and productive to do.

------
tete
This is a really great project! I think caring about people in prisons is one
of the best ways to show the strength of a society.

I know, the US/Californian prison system has many things to criticize and rant
about (and people should!), but here is a great project to face some of those
problems. It's really great, but I hope people keep pushing such projects.
Prisons will probably never be empty, but setting that goal is always better
than surrendering, cause huge costs, both financial and social ones.

I hope such projects set an example for other states and countries.

------
morbius
There are many prisons where inmates are encouraged to study business. This is
a good, positive thing and if anything, it reflects the permeation of computer
science down to even the most fundamental infrastructures of society.

We still have a lot of work to do, but this is a very, very good sign.

------
taksintik
It's criminal that bad guys get the luxury of learning while innocent children
around a majority of school districts don't. We also spend 5-6X more annually
housing inmates. Really strange decisions.

------
JSPy
don't they know that the inmates will be able to launch missiles by whistling
into the phone now?

------
andyana
Hans Reiser is at San Quentin.

~~~
t0asterb0t
He appears to be at Pleasant Valley now:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser)

------
daviskim
Go Hack Reactor!!

