
Bitcoin Is Creeping into Real Estate Deals - uptown
https://www.wsj.com/articles/bitcoin-is-creeping-into-real-estate-deals-1511265600
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paulgb
This article seems to conflate using the block chain to verify title
transfers, with using Bitcoin to buy/rent property, as it discusses both
without really drawing a distinction.

Can anyone make sense of what's going on here, and in particular why a
municipality would prefer a block chain to a public database of digitally
signed records?

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cwkoss
It would allow two private parties to transfer title between themselves
without permission or action by the municipality.

Not sure why the municipality would want that. Also would create a slew of
issues around what happens if you lose the private key to your house, or
worse, it gets stolen.

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knocte
> if you lose the private key to your house

Haha. Sorry that I laugh, but using blockchain for land ownership is not about
backing bitcoins with square meters, but about the tamper-proof, immutable,
public and resilient aspects of the data you can store in the bitcoin
blockchain.

The only private key that would be involved in this process would come from
the government, which could just sign messages with some standard (encrypted)
format that just maps addresses to individuals/entities. This way even
notaries will become one day obsolete (or they will simply be there to make
sure the blockchain entry happens and the transfer of the assets as well, in
an atomic way; and the assets don't even need to be crypto in this case).

~~~
hudon
If the government instead stored the deed transfers in a database with digital
signatures and exposed a read-only API to it, wouldn’t that solve this problem
better?

What’s the concern? That the government makes you not the owner of your house
anymore? And if your government does that, what’s the difference between
fighting for a government that respects the rule of law versus fighting for a
government that puts house deeds on bitcoin?

Thanks!

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nwah1
The difference is that the bitcoin wastes more energy to accomplish that.

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brianorwhatever
but is guaranteed to accomplish that

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hudon
If the government was going to take your house away from you anyway, why would
they care what’s on the blockchain? This is so contrived...

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badloginagain
In Canada, buying/selling Bitcoin is subject to capital gains in the same way
buying/selling stocks are. I wonder if you have to pay capital gains if using
Bitcoin directly as a currency- as in through the purchase of a house or other
expensive asset.

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tryingagainbro
I think yes, might be wrong but it's logical (logic and taxes don't always
mix, so I may be wrong).

You bought Bitcoin at $1 and sell at $8000 to pay for a house, you need to
declare income of $7999 for each Bitcoin at the end of the year or else...

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badloginagain
It makes sense, I guess the question is if there's language in the tax code
for alternative payment sources. It's not unreasonable that someone could
trade their car, and 300 shares in Google; in exchange for something of equal
value.

If there is, it sucks because you're getting hit doubly for taxes on the item
you're paying and the capital gains you'd be taking.

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tryingagainbro
In USA even if you sold cocaine...or your mom, you need to declare it on
income taxes. They might not catch selling cocaine but if they catch you with
undeclared cash, they'll Al Capone you.

I'm almost certain that all countries have a catch all phrase to include any
gains /income.

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charlesdm
Not all countries have capital gains tax, so no.

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test6554
How will any kind of blockchain used for real-estate be de-centralized? My
guess is that it will be centralized. No government would give up that much
control over the property within its borders. Governments want authority to be
the first to add property to the ledger to ensure it starts off in a valid
state. Governments want to have the authority to seize property and enforce
court decisions as well. People could get hacked and suddenly someone else
owns their home, but with a centralized system, even if the government gets
hacked and all property stolen, they simply fork off a previous block that was
known to be valid and proceed as usual.

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nikolay
Blockchain ≠ Bitcoin

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uptown
Alternate Source: [https://archive.fo/5ArL4](https://archive.fo/5ArL4)

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kuschku
Thanks. I can’t circumvent the paywall either with Google, nor Facebook, nor
the E-Mail URL trick.

I seriously wish by now links to paywalled content that aren’t archived
versions should be banned from HN, especially now that circumventing these
paywalls is basically impossible.

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uptown
You’re replying to a comment with a paywal circumvention link but saying it’s
basically impossible?

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kuschku
I'm replying to a comment after already 4 attempts at circumventing have
failed

The alternative is that people start commenting on an article without having
read it, and that would truly turn HN into Reddit.

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bernardlunn
It is just money laundering & evading exchange controls. Would use pigeons if
they were fast enough.

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riazrizvi
Article headline implies Bitcoin can be used in real estate deals. Article
itself describes how blockchain techniques may be used in real estate record
keeping. This aligns with my understanding of how bubbles are promoted through
confusion tactics, via financial press as complicit agents. Mental Note; don't
touch cryptocurrencies with a barge pole.

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nikolay
Well, WSJ and Wall St are interesting in bubbles of all kinds, so, of course,
just like ever before, they would do anything possible to separate stupid
people from their money...

~~~
riazrizvi
Some markets are more false than others. With cryptocurrencies 1) you can’t
measure intrinsic demand, so you don’t know if a price increase is being
driven by sheep-like speculators or real buyers who want to hold the asset for
its own sake. 2) you can’t validate counterparty identity so people can buy
and sell with themselves, thereby creating a false sense of market demand. 3)
because of a lack of market transparency you have no idea at all what you can
sell bitcoin for in a certain size, similar to diamonds where people pay $1000
for a commodity that they wouldn’t be able to sell themselves for $100, so
‘investments’ in it are an instant money loss. It’s one of these markets where
if you aren’t scamming someone yourself then you are the one being scammed.
All that said, this bubble is still mid froth, and I expect my comment to get
downvoted, by scammers and suckers.

EDIT (from [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/technology/bitcoin-
bitfin...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/technology/bitcoin-bitfinex-
tether.html)):

> Tether and Bitfinex have insisted that the two operations are separate. But
> leaked documents known as the Paradise Papers, which were made public this
> month, show that Appleby, an offshore law firm, helped Mr. Potter and Mr.
> Devasini, the Bitfinex operators, set up Tether in the British Virgin
> Islands in late 2014.

> One persistent online critic, going by the screen name Bitfinex’ed, has
> written several very detailed essays on Medium arguing that Bitfinex appears
> to be creating Tether coins out of thin air and then using them to buy
> Bitcoin and push the price up.

I rest my case.

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rb808
Great way for Chinese buyers to go straight from electricity bill to
Canadian/Australian/Californian real estate without even moving any currency.
Money laundering and capital control problems solved!

(OK the article looks to be about blockchain for confirming transaction rather
than paying - but the joke still holds)

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jenga22
I don't see this comment as helpful. Bitcoin, and other crypto currencies, is
akin to the internet when it was first introduced. It has the potential to
disrupt the value business which is controlled by governments at the moment.

Worse, a lot our value system is controlled by corporations that have fees
littered throughout every single transaction we do today. Crypto-Currencies
have a chance to disrupt a system that is increasingly not good for the common
person.

Secondly, Chinese buyers area already visiting the US and buying property and
they pay cold hard cash. So not seeing what your point is here.

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tabeth
What are a few things you can do with Bitcoin that you couldn't do without it?

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itsamoreh
Well for one you can transfer money to anyone anywhere without any
intermediates.

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tabeth
Why would you want that? What happens if you have a fraudulent transaction?
How is it reversed? What about coercion? Blackmail, etc.

By the way, you can transfer cash without any intermediaries. You literally
just hand it over.

I think blockchain in general has value, however I'm skeptical of
cryptocurrencies vs. a trusted intermediary and the current setup.

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lightbyte
>By the way, you can transfer cash without any intermediaries. You literally
just hand it over.

Why would you want that? What happens if you have a fraudulent transaction?
How is it reversed? What about coercion? Blackmail, etc.

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tabeth
Yeah, that's why you use escrow, or an intermediary service. By the way, I
never claimed you should use cash. In fact, most of the criticism I have
towards Bitcoin also applies to cash, as you've sarcastically pointed out.

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neurotech1
Non-Paywall [http://archive.is/5ArL4](http://archive.is/5ArL4)

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valsoltow
A few other cryptos are as well
[http://vectorspace.ai/recommend/app/crypto_discover?query=re...](http://vectorspace.ai/recommend/app/crypto_discover?query=real+estate)

