
Minnesota Gives Coursera the Boot, Citing a Decades-Old Law - mbrubeck
http://chronicle.com/blogs/wiredcampus/minnesota-gives-coursera-the-boot-citing-a-decades-old-law/40542
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Tycho
If the government was serious about cutting budget deficits, it would
immediately discontinue the purchase of textbooks, switch to ereaders (there's
a company in Europe selling basic eInk readers for £8), make use of out-of-
copyright reading material, abandon the practice of lecturers performing the
exact same lecture term after term when a recording will do, partner with
companies like Coursera to provide curriculums, move towards homework and
exams that can be marked by a computer rather than by hand... And generally
just run education _in a way that reflects the technology we have at our
disposal._

~~~
TeMPOraL
> move towards homework and exams that can be marked by a computer rather than
> by hand...

Pretty much all of current homeworks and exams can be. It's called standarized
tests, and I'd argue it's one of the reasons education sucks as much as it
does.

Except from that one, where I think a move in opposite direction is desirable,
I'd love for all the changes you mentioned to happen.

~~~
DanBC
recordings instead of lecturers? I'm not sure that's a great idea.

~~~
Tycho
I actually find it a vastly superior format. You can rewind the bits you don't
understand clearly, or when your mind wandered off. In a live lecture, you do
not have that luxury. In order to get maximum value out of a live lecture, you
need to pay 100% attention to everything as it is said, and 100% understand
each thing as it is spoken. Two rather unrealistic expectations, especially
when lectures are usually cumulative, building one topic on top of the
understanding of another.

Questions are also probably better handled with an online (or offline) forum
and office hours. At any rate, I was never overly convinced about the
'interactive' benefits of the lecture hall.

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steamer25
IANAL but it seems pretty clear to me that Coursera is exempted under 136A.653
subd 2 (<https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=136A.653>):

Subd. 2.Educational program; nonprofit organizations. Educational programs
which are sponsored by a bona fide and nonprofit trade, labor, business,
professional or fraternal organization, which programs are conducted solely
for that organization's membership or for the members of the particular
industries or professions served by that organization, and which are not
available to the public on a fee basis, are exempted from the provisions of
sections 136A.61 to 136A.71.

~~~
FootballMuse
Subd. 3 seems to be more likely

Educational program; business firms. Educational programs which are sponsored
by a business firm for the training of its employees or the employees of other
business firms with which it has contracted to provide educational services at
no cost to the employees are exempted from the provisions of sections 136A.61
to 136A.71.

~~~
despite2
That doesn't seem to apply at all. Coursera programs aren't for training their
own employees, nor the employees of other businesses.

~~~
FootballMuse
Courses are certainly sponsored by a business. Are you an employee of another
business or sole proprietorship? Did you enter into a contract for educational
services from coursera at no cost? Then it sounds like it applies to me....

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gojomo
I bet a compromise could be worked out if Coursera agrees to make
instructional materials available via 'gopher'.

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ca136
Probably more positives here for Coursera than negatives. It'll get them more
press and won't stop anyone from taking classes.

Hopefully it'll even make someone in the MN Office of Higher Education realize
they need to update their policies.

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waterlesscloud
Well, there's the proof that Coursera and the rest are serious threats to the
existing order.

~~~
makomk
Or more likely, Minnesota's just had a lot of problems in the past with
scammers running useless unaccredited online and mail-in degreee programs like
everywhere else.

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truebecomefalse
This is so backwards but so are many of the laws that are on the books in many
states.

~~~
mangler
This is 'backward' until you meet a bunch of doctors who claim to cure cancer
using cucumber juice and find that they all have PhDs and MDs from the
University of Tantric Study and Life Exploration, Middlesex Town Massahoma.
People in trouble DO fall for this bs.

~~~
polymatter
I find it very hard to believe anyone can possibly be confused here.

Coursera is not a university, doesn't look or pretend to be a university. It
doesn't grant PhDs, MDs, or indeed anything beyond a simple certificate that
isn't even valid as college credit. They go to some length on every single
course page to explain this. Some courses don't even give you a certificate.
The website doesn't talk about certification it talks about "Advance your
knowledge and career". There is a big tab that says "Universities" so I can't
see how you could think Coursera was a university.

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kfcm
I attended a tech demo conference in Minnesota last week.

One topic of conversation during a networking break was having a theme to the
next demo conference. The one theme which was heavily discussed? Wait for it.
Edu-tech.

Oh, the irony.

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cafard
"the majority of work you do for the class will be done from outside the State
of Minnesota"

Many many years ago, presumably during a discussion about travel, a great aunt
of mine told her brother-in-law that he had been in two states she never had:
intoxication and insanity. Either seems a sufficient defense here, and will
the state of Minnesota make you blow in the bag and issue you a ticket for
sober learning?

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far33d
Why doesn't coursera take the same approach as Uber and respectfully disagree
to comply?

~~~
mentat
aka operate illegally?

~~~
shrughes
Or win on 1st amendment grounds.

~~~
aaronblohowiak
Not even close; Minnesota isn't saying that Coursera cannot operate in
Minnesota, just that it cannot do so without approval -- just like how you
don't have the right to have a huge demonstration without proper permits.
There is well-established precedent that it is acceptable to have minor
hurdles in the expression of free speech in the interest of maintaining an
orderly society.

Edit: also, the problem is that they are calling it a "college course", this
is a simple consumer protection issue..

~~~
jlgreco
My impression is that they can get away with requiring permits for
demonstrations because there are physical space considerations, public safety,
etc. Imagine if a state decided you needed a permit to write for a political
blog. Same content as a protest may have, but without the meatspace messiness.

~~~
rayiner
Coursera isn't a political blog, it's a commercial service (even if provided
for no fee).

~~~
jlgreco
Of course, I did not mean to imply equivalence. I am only pointing out that
restrictions to freedom of speech being acceptable for physical protests does
not necessarily imply anything about what may be acceptable limitations in
other scenarios.

 _(In this case I agree with the exception)_

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kfcm
A better title for this would be:

"Minnesota Tells Coursera To Hit the Trail...Oregon Trail That Is."

The infamous "Oregon Trail" game was developed in Minnesota.

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tokenadult
I live in Minnesota. I am enrolled for five Coursera courses (of which I am
really keeping up with two, Keith Devlin's Introduction to Mathematical
Thinking, a "transitions" course, and Mohamed Noor's Introduction to Genetics
and Evolution). I have received no notification from Coursera to this effect.
Checking my email messages from Coursera, I see no such notice, and logging
into the site, there is no attempt to use geolocation to give a Minnesota-
specific notice to me.

Moreover, I only see two blogs reporting this (one presumably cribbing from
the other) as I do a Google News search. No local news organization in
Minnesota has picked up this story. So thus far I'm not even sure that this is
a true factual report. (I'll check with my state government during business
hours tomorrow.) I doubt that this is true, and I doubt that this will hold
up. Because I just met my incumbent state senator and state representative
this evening (at a candidate forum in our newly redistricted state Senate
district), I suppose I could contact their offices for immediate response to
this issue, if there really is an issue here. My advice from a Minnesota
Coursera student (who is also a lawyer familiar education regulations in the
state of Minnesota, continually discovering new regulations that bureaucrats
have ignored for varying lengths of time) is stay tuned for further news, and
check the facts before proceeding to react to this.

AFTER EDIT: The first reply here refers to the Coursera terms of service,

<https://www.coursera.org/about/terms>

not a very prominent link on the Coursera site, and in context the notice fits
in a big wall of text like this:

"Notice for California Users

Under California Civil Code Section 1789.3, California Website users are
entitled to the following specific consumer rights notice: The Complaint
Assistance Unit of the Division of Consumer Services of the California
Department of Consumer Affairs may be contacted in writing at 1625 N. Market
Blvd., Suite S-202, Sacramento, California 95834, or by telephone at (800)
952-5210.

Notice for Minnesota Users

"Coursera has been informed by the Minnesota Office of Higher Education that
under Minnesota Statutes (136A.61 to 136A.71), a university cannot offer
online courses to Minnesota residents unless the university has received
authorization from the State of Minnesota to do so. If you are a resident of
Minnesota, you agree that either (1) you will not take courses on Coursera, or
(2) for each class that you take, the majority of work you do for the class
will be done from outside the State of Minnesota.

Choice of Law/Forum Selection

"Sites are managed by Coursera, located in Santa Clara County, California. You
agree that any dispute arising out of or relating to these Terms of Use or any
content posted to a Site, including copies and republication thereof, whether
based in contract, tort, statutory or other law, will be governed by the laws
of the State of California, excluding its conflicts of law provisions. You
further consent to the personal jurisdiction of and exclusive venue in the
federal and state courts located in and serving Santa Clara County, California
as the legal forum for any such dispute.

"Excluding claims for injunctive or other equitable relief, for claims related
to the Coursera Sites where the total amount sought is less than ten thousand
U.S. Dollars ($10,000.00 USD), either Coursera or You may elect at any point
during the dispute to resolve the claim through binding, non-appearance-based
arbitration. The dispute will then be resolved using an established
alternative dispute resolution ("ADR") provider, mutually agreed upon by You
and Coursera. The parties and the selected ADR provider shall not involve any
personal appearance by the parties or witnesses, unless otherwise mutually
agreed by the parties; rather, the arbitration shall be conducted, at the
option of the party seeking relief, online, by telephone, online, or via
written submissions alone. Any judgment rendered by the arbitrator may be
entered in any court of competent jurisdiction."

That's about midway down a rather lengthy ToS, definitely "below the fold" for
a casual glance at usual screen resolutions. Again, I will say that Coursera
has not sent any notice to users of Coursera about that by email (I searched
in my emails again) and doesn't draw attention to that by geolocation as users
log in. So while Coursera feels compelled to add terms to its ToS, at least as
of this moment, there doesn't seem to be any actual change in user interaction
based on this. I will contact the relevant offices in Minnesota and see what
they have to say about this during business hours. As before, Google News only
reveals the blog here and another blog reporting on this.

Summing up, I think the blog post has a title that is link bait compared to
the substance of the issue, and the issue appears to be doing nothing to
discourage participation on Coursera on the part of Minnesota students.
Coursera has put up a pro-forma legal notice, but it is still dealing with
Minnesota students, and no one in Minnesota seems worried about signing up for
Coursera courses.

~~~
saraid216
I'd advise actually reading the article properly.

> I have received no notification from Coursera to this effect. Checking my
> email messages from Coursera, I see no such notice, and logging into the
> site, there is no attempt to use geolocation to give a Minnesota-specific
> notice to me.

No such claim was made.

The claim is that Coursera made a change to its Terms of Service. I just
checked; there is such a notice in there. It's right underneath the one for
California.

The letters were sent to "postsecondary institutions". You are not a
postsecondary institution.

