
Bethesda removing mandatory login from Doom re-releases after fan backlash - smacktoward
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/347550/Bethesda_removing_mandatory_login_from_Doom_rereleases_after_fan_backlash.php
======
geddy
This is great news, and I'm happy that the backlash worked. I was furious to
find out a 20+ year old game was implemented with DRM.

So much so that I requested a refund from Nintendo who notoriously does not do
refunds on eShop purchases. It actually worked, and I was refunded my $5
yesterday. Couldn't be happier to have voted with my wallet. Hopefully others
did that too. I won't be re-purchasing DOOM either because I no longer want my
money in Bethesda's pockets.

I _will_ however continue playing my $2 copy from GOG that I grabbed shortly
after requesting the refund.

~~~
dleslie
Although I think Bethesda was wrong to do what they did, and they're
rightfully being taken to task for it, your response is raising my eyebrow.

You seem to care so much about DRM that you'll demand a refund and use a DRM-
free service instead, and yet you own a Switch which is itself a closed
platform heavily laden with DRM?

~~~
eridius
Perhaps the OP has made the decision to accept Nintendo's control of the
Switch in exchange for playing Switch games, but is upset about additional
unexpected requirements being added to the mix by individual publishers.

~~~
geddy
This is exactly correct. Nintendo is the only company who I support with the
current generation of consoles, and on the exceedingly rare occasion that I
buy a digital game (indies, or a re-release like DOOM), I accept the DRM
terms.

If you avoid DRM 100% of the time without exception, then video games become
just about impossible to play, with the exception of GOG releases.

------
jetrink
> Bethesda suggested there had actually been a slip-up when implementing
> BethesdaNet support, and that logging in should have been an optional step
> from the get-go.

Also, prior to the re-release, Bethesda accidentally removed Doom and Doom II
from the libraries of people who had purchased the games previously on Xbox
360.

1\. [https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/07/27/bethesda-is-
fixing-t...](https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/07/27/bethesda-is-fixing-that-
unintentional-doom-doom-ii-xbox-glitch)

~~~
ChrisSD
Bethesda seem very accident prone.

~~~
ergothus
While others will be sarcastic (perhaps rightfully so), I think it's fair to
actually point this out. Bethesda clearly doesn't do a lot of checks. Consider
some of their Fallout 76 gaffes - including have no public test server.

One does not launch an online game with an expected massive audience and just
"forget" that step (which has hurt them several times already) unless utterly
lack any processes and any culture that would have caught it.

Now, I know Bethesda is multiple studios and I know nothing about their
operations beyond that, but when the reputation is of a company that delivers
great story in notoriously buggy products, and trends don't seem to be
improving, that says SOMETHING about priorities, right?

~~~
komali2
After Oblivion, I'm not sure why we give Bethesda any credit. Even Oblivion
was a stretch, it was incredible for the time period but still comically
buggy.

Fallout 3, New Vegas, Skyrim, and Fallout 4 were tremendously buggy, and if
you take a step back from the "whee immersion" aspect, aren't _that_ good
RPGs. The choices are extremely limited and by the time you get to Fallout 4
insultingly so. They all pushed the envelope for explorable area, but you
really had to make your own game out of it, and you _really_ have to work at
it. Skyrim is only fun for me if I load it up with hella survival mods.

~~~
m-p-3
To be honest, I'm still having a lot of fun with Skyrim, and it was released
in 2011.

It is buggy, they don't really update it anymore, but the modding community
kept it alive and well and the way Bethesda treats their customers doesn't
make me optimistic about the future.

------
liability
Are they going to explain why they butchered Doom with the Unity engine? It's
not like there is any shortage of programmers eager and able to create yet
another proper Doom port.

It really feels like Bethesda threw some young intern at the project who
lacked cultural context for Doom and therefore didn't treat it with respect.

Edit for source:
[https://mobile.twitter.com/noteinso/status/11548092916411514...](https://mobile.twitter.com/noteinso/status/1154809291641151488)

~~~
strictnein
Wait, what? Where do you see that Doom was ported to Unity for this?

~~~
Longlius
Switch games have been dumpable for a while and it's immediately apparent when
looking at the internals:
[https://twitter.com/noteinso/status/1154809291641151488?s=09](https://twitter.com/noteinso/status/1154809291641151488?s=09)

~~~
strictnein
Yuck. This is more egregious than requiring the login, imo.

------
jchw
Wait, that really happened? I saw a YouTube video crop up and immediately
laughed thinking it was satire. You really can’t make this stuff up. That
really destroys any goodwill that people may have felt with this release.

I want to give them the benefit of the doubt but I really doubt they
“accidentally“ made it mandatory to sign up for their new service. That
would’ve been really annoying for development/testing.

~~~
rasz
What goodwill? You might want to look up owner of Bethesda, a copyright
trading company run by a lawyer.

------
nilkn
For what it's worth, the port also runs really poorly on the Switch. It feels
like there's a lot of input lag and the frame rate is all over the place. It's
not unplayable but it required me to spend the first 30 minutes just learning
to compensate for the poor performance and lag. You'd probably get a better
experience actually playing it back in the mid-90s.

~~~
binarycrusader
That's because it's very likely using the software renderer:

[https://twitter.com/fabynou/status/1155042578544263168?s=20](https://twitter.com/fabynou/status/1155042578544263168?s=20)

As the copyright holder, Bethesda could have shipped one of the vastly
improved open source versions such as the ones used for iOS, so it's puzzling
why they're (apparently) using the software renderer.

~~~
AlexandrB
Apparently the iOS version has been updated to the Unity port too.

~~~
binarycrusader
Fascinating speculation in that thread:

 _...running DOOM engine inside Unity, render to a 320x200 texture and make
Unity render that texture to the screen with orthogonal projection?_

Given that Carmack and most of the original personnel left, I suppose it's
unsurprising.

------
peteretep
We really need to get to a point where companies see holding identifiable data
as a big risk that they only want to undertake if absolutely needed

~~~
tictoc
I agree. I recall Reddit would just require a user id and a password to use
their site. I liked that model. I guess they eventually goaded you into giving
their email, but there are alternatives to password recovery than a forget my
email link.

~~~
Deimorz
Giving an email on reddit is still technically optional, but they try to make
that unclear.

During registration you can just leave the email field blank and click "Next"
to skip giving one, even though there's no indication at all that it's
optional.

The site also annoys you constantly now to add an email address, but you can
ignore or adblock that.

~~~
lunias
"New Reddit" is basically a primer on UX dark patterns. Its collapse cannot
come soon enough.

~~~
s09dfhks
Old.reddit.com still works until they decide to remove it

~~~
BRAlNlAC
Try i.reddit.com for an even more barebones experience

------
crims0n
Good. There is absolutely no reason to have a mandatory login on a game you
purchase and run locally, especially considering it has no online features.

~~~
mywittyname
Especially an open source game which could be had on the same device without
mandatory login.

~~~
andybak
The engine is open source. The levels aren't.

~~~
davesmith1983
According to MVG on youtube the Doom 1&2 engine is Unity. I have no idea why
that is the case though.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh7nZ9t2eJA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh7nZ9t2eJA)

Also apparently they have slowed down the Midi Soundtrack as well.

~~~
jonny_eh
Probably to make porting easier. Keep in mind they can't use all the homebrew
GPL ports, since they don't own that source code, so can't strip the GPL from
them.

~~~
liability
What would stop them from releasing a GPLv2 port, with source, other than
their own stubbornness? The Switch's DRM would preclude GPLv3, but not v2, no?

Also it would be easy for them to hire somebody to write a new port the right
way with whatever license they please. It's freakin Doom!

~~~
davesmith1983
I know people don't like Bethesda (neither do I) but generally there is
normally solid reasons why companies don't do such things.

A lot of the time there is other stuff in that source code or attached to the
source code that they can't release. They could have a bunch of internal
signing keys etc (which may need to embedded in the source).

Also Nintendo, Sony etc may specifically not allow GPL code on their platform.

There could be a bunch of very good reasons we may never be privy to.

~~~
liability
I find these theories difficult to square with previous releases of Doom on
locked platforms like iOS apparently being proper source ports. Even if it's
not a community engine, they should have access somewhere to code with
agreeable licensing. Or at least, they should be capable of hiring a community
source-port developer to throw together a new source port based only off the
original code (which Bethesda would be free to license as they see fit, on
account of owning the copyright.)

My personal theory is Bethesda doesn't respect the franchise and turned over
responsibility of it to somebody young who probably had plenty of experience
with Unity, but little to no experience working on an engine written in C.

~~~
davesmith1983
The fact of the matter is that neither of us know.

~~~
liability
I don't know, which is why I said I'd like for them to explain it. In the
meantime, they will not enjoy the benefit of doubt from me, and I don't think
you should give it to them either. We're not operating in a vacuum here,
Bethesda already has a well earned negative reputation.

~~~
davesmith1983
I will be buying Doom Eternal. I've basically built a new pc for it. I won't
be buying these ports as I have the originals anyway.

~~~
liability
Fair enough, Doom Eternal looks like it should be pretty good, provided
Bethesda doesn't fuck up the release with busted DRM, etc.

------
molticrystal
As long as we are talking doom, what is the most interesting device you've
played it on?

I'll start. An early generation Ipod with the 3rd party Rockbox OS had a doom
port for it. It also played NES and GB games.

------
unethical_ban
Malice vs. incompetence, and so on. Their excuse is believable - that they had
a rewards program and that it wasn't meant to be globally required. Or is it?
How did that get through testing? Were all the testers Slayers Club members?

Anyway, I'm glad the backlash worked.

~~~
smacktoward
_> How did that get through testing?_

This is Bethesda we’re talking about, remember. The miracle would be a bug
_not_ getting through testing.

~~~
tzakrajs
Todd Howard is just happy it’s not his fault this time

~~~
liability
Todd Howard is probably upset he didn't get a chance to reskin Cacodemons as
dragons.

------
jdlyga
It reminds me of the old days where certain Xbox Live Arcade games wouldn't
work unless you were online and logged in. Back then you didn't always have a
WiFi connection or an ethernet hookup, so it prevented you from playing
sometimes.

------
rafaelvasco
Just reading 'mandatory login' makes me cringe. It's not always possible or
sensible but please gamedev companies: \- Assume offline first, instead of
online first. \- Never ever put a mandatory login no matter what, DRM or not.

------
olliej
I am so sick of this “you must be online for this single player game”
nonsense.

The number of times I’ve lost a connection while running Hitman and so lost
half the game is absurd.

~~~
Freak_NL
The Hitman reboot and its sequel are great games, but the crap surrounding it
is disheartening.

Figuring out which version of Hitman 2 you should buy on Steam when you
already own Hitman 1 requires a flow chart just to understand the different
packages, expansion passes, gold and silver collections, and what have you.

~~~
freehunter
I wanted to play Hitman on the Xbox recently. It's on Game Pass, so I set it
to download and then left for the day expecting to have the game ready to play
that night. Nope. The Hitman download only has one level. You need to download
every level separately (even though they're all included with Game Pass) and
they're all absolutely gigantic. I'm not sure what's up with the file size but
it's out of control.

You can buy the complete edition of Hitman, and it clocks in at 172GB. The
Halo Master Chief Collection is only 70GB and it includes _four full complete
games_.

Fantastic game, but they really do make it hard to actually play.

~~~
Freak_NL
Hmm, 130 GB in Steam (running on Linux via Proton). Huh, that is pretty big.

------
shmerl
Aren't Doom games available on GOG? Just buy them DRM-free.

~~~
Buttons840
As mentioned not on the switch.

The PC has better than a DRM free version though, the source code of the
original engine was released and there are several updates that keep the game
feeling modern. Only the game art must be purchased legally. If interested
look up "zdoom", which is the updated engine I used and remember.

~~~
shmerl
Switch is DRMed over the top already, so complaining about more DRM there is
kind of futile. Those who prefer DRM-free games should use something else to
begin with.

Something like Smach-Z can be interesting for handheld use case. It can run
games from GOG, either natively (Linux versions) or in Wine or DosBox.

~~~
icelancer
Re: SMACHZ, it's almost definitely a scam. Here's one of many videos showing
how it is.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d00I_3THLBQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d00I_3THLBQ)

~~~
shmerl
Some old video, I don't see from it how it's a scam, while it's an active
project.

See actually recent one here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QclbkG1WnQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QclbkG1WnQ)

~~~
icelancer
I implore anyone considering the SMACHZ to do your research. This is one of
many, many videos from independent journalists showing the company is beyond
shady, misrepresents their products, lies about timelines, and throws red
flags all over the place.

~~~
shmerl
That's why you shouldn't pre-order anything. Wait for it to come out first,
then evaluate it. I'd buy that over Switch and Nintendo any time, if it really
comes out.

------
HNisCurated
Another nail in the coffin for AAA developers.

When indie developers encourage you to crack their game and make mods you get
a different community.

Bethesda is too old, it's become to big and famous, it's yet another soulless
game studio.

I'll stick with my sub 10$ indie games. I haven't gotten bored yet.

~~~
theandrewbailey
Bethesda Softworks (the publisher) has been rather lawyer happy over the past
few years. They went after Mojang over the word _Scrolls_.

Bethesda Game Studios (the developer) isn't much better. As if poor writing
and re-using a rotten engine isn't bad enough, they've routinely dabbled in
paid mods.

~~~
erk__
It should probably be noted that Bethesda Softworks is owned by Zenimax.
Though Zenimax was founded by the founders of Bethesda. Zenimaxes board
concist of a Lawyer, a former baseball player, a real estate manager and a
movie producer. They have again and again made poor choices when it comes to
drm, but they have removed Denvou from both Doom and Rage 2 some time after
release.

~~~
liability
> _" a former baseball player,"_

Now you have me wondering about the _" former baseball player joins the
corporate world and feels lost in it"_ subplot of _Prey_ 2017 (published by
Bethesda.)

------
cgb223
The last game they made for Doom was 2016 right?

So they’re doing this 3 years later??

I’m amazed people haven’t moved on to other games

~~~
LegitShady
This is not referring to Doom 2016 (which was a great game). This was a new
Doom 25 Year anniversary thing with Doom 1, 2, and 3. The re-release included
non-optional requirement to sign into their online service.

~~~
cgb223
Oh had no idea they did that!

So strange they’d make you sign in for Doom...

